# How much liability insurance?



## gunslinger

I'm not sure there is ever enough, but I carry a million dollar umbrella policy.


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## franknbeans

Yeah, that was what I was thinking-$1m/occurrence, $2m total.


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## gunslinger

I had an auto accident about 3 years ago. Long story, but it was a 5 car pile up, weather related, black ice, and I was car number 4.

Driver of car number 1 sued everyone for 525,000.

At that time I had a 500,000 policy. I was the only one that had an insurance company lawyer.

The case took about 2 and a half years to settle. My insurance company paid $1500.

I hate to think what the lawyer bill would have been, and I'm glad I had adequate coverage.

Shortly after the wreck, I bought the umbrella. 

First time in my 54 years I've ever been sued.


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## franknbeans

We have actually been sued twice as a result of car accidents-one mine-one a passenger of the daughter-frustrating, and I would be homeless without good insurance.


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## DressageDreamer

So, who do you recommend or use to buy your insurance? I would like to get insurance for my two mares that I do shows with and transport frequently. Also, does anyone carry insurance policies for health as well as accident insurance?


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## mls

Discuss it with your insurance provider. They are the experts in this situation. That way if something does go wrong, you can know you did everything you could.


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## franknbeans

I have a mortality with Colic surgery coverage on my reiner and now Liability on both. I use Star H for the mortality and major medical, and this is the info for the liability:

Ceirin Jerril (pronounced Karen)
Neuman Equine Insurance
Neuman Insurance Group 
3363 Tates Creek Road, Suite 204
Lexington, KY 40502
859-231-0213 fax: 859-231-0206
859-327-7858 cell
www.equineinsurance.com
Normal Business Hours 8:30 am to 5pm M-F

I had used them previously for liability, so did not switch over to the the folks who provide the Mortality,colic surgery. Just FYI-they will not provide mortality/major medical on a horse over 18 yrs, for obvious reasons. I am now looking into major medical, since the bill for a recent colic was $600, and nothing was covered. With major medical about $250 would have been.


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## franknbeans

mls said:


> Discuss it with your insurance provider. They are the experts in this situation. That way if something does go wrong, you can know you did everything you could.


Most normal insurance folks have no clue. I found it on the net, and used to have farm insurance, so had some knowledge from there. THe guy who does our auto and house-not a clue.


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## mls

franknbeans said:


> Most normal insurance folks have no clue. I found it on the net, and used to have farm insurance, so had some knowledge from there. THe guy who does our auto and house-not a clue.


Whoever is writing your policy should know about the coverage they are offering. If the local agent does not, go up the food chain.


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## DressageDreamer

Thank you so much for the info. I see ads online for equine insurance and in magazines, but wanted to find one that someone has actually used and knows something about. Again, thanks!


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## franknbeans

mls said:


> Whoever is writing your policy should know about the coverage they are offering. If the local agent does not, go up the food chain.


You don't seem to understand. Equine insurance is totally seperate, at least anywhere I have lived. THere IS no local agent who does horse stuff. THere was one who would write a farm policy, but I don't have a farm. This is just for the individual horse(s). Has nothing to do with going up the "food chain". For example, auto is with Progressive. No matter HOW high I go in the "food chain" they don;t insure horses, and my agent for auto and home does not underwrite for any carriers who do. Simple as that. Horses are specialized. Much like my son has specialized insurance for his show car.

Star H comes very highly recommended by my trainer who has used them for years.


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## Joe4d

Travelers insurance sent an agent to be a guest speaker to our riding club meetings, they sell equine liability, showing, and business type horse insurance. I have equine liability through farm buuuroooooo,,,, (cant even get close enough for spellcheck, stupid stupid word) but it is part of my farm policy.


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## DressageDreamer

Bureau.......LOL some words are just a pain, aren't they??? 
I have had Travelers health insurance through the railroad before and it was really good, but that was many, many years ago.


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## franknbeans

The issue is, what if you don't have a farm policy, which I no longer have need for. Anyway- I did my binder today, so I am set.


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## Skyseternalangel

DressageDreamer said:


> Thank you so much for the info. I see ads online for equine insurance and in magazines, but wanted to find one that someone has actually used and knows something about. Again, thanks!


I get my equine liability from USEF. I'm about to sign on with Markel for mortality and surgery/medical insurance. They do offer free colic surgery and have optional rates for things to add on to the policy. 

For what I was looking for it was a great deal. Everything else would have cost a lot more and not covered me as well as this one.


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## dbarabians

I only insure the horses and have no need for liability insurance since in Texas livestock owners are protected by section 87 of the civil code.
Section 87 simply states that livestock owners and equine professionals cannot be held liable for injuries due to the inherent risk involved when around livestock.
With the amount of horses in this state the courts would be tied up if everyone injured by a horse wanted to sue. Shalom


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## Tazmanian Devil

From what I have found, $2M/#$1M is the maximum equine policy you can get. A few years back I was looking for something with higher limits. To make a long story short, neither myself or my agent could find a carrier that would offer higher coverage limits. 

$2M/$1M is generally considered the "standard" for equine groups and clubs in my area. An additional umbrella policy may or may not offer you additional coverage. You really need to speak with a knowledgeable agent to get details and find out what coverage is right for you.


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## franknbeans

dbarabians said:


> I only insure the horses and have no need for liability insurance since in Texas livestock owners are protected by section 87 of the civil code.
> Section 87 simply states that livestock owners and equine professionals cannot be held liable for injuries due to the inherent risk involved when around livestock.
> With the amount of horses in this state the courts would be tied up if everyone injured by a horse wanted to sue. Shalom


Not true in this state, which was why I asked. I also insure the horses. 2 seperate issues.


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## verona1016

dbarabians said:


> I only insure the horses and have no need for liability insurance since in Texas livestock owners are protected by section 87 of the civil code.
> Section 87 simply states that livestock owners and equine professionals cannot be held liable for injuries due to the inherent risk involved when around livestock.
> With the amount of horses in this state the courts would be tied up if everyone injured by a horse wanted to sue. Shalom


That could really come back to bite you... Oregon also has very strong equine liability laws, but they don't cover situations like a horse bolting into traffic and causing a car accident. I'd bet the same is true in TX.


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## rcshawk

I only insure the horses and have no need for liability insurance since in Texas livestock owners are protected by section 87 of the civil code.
Section 87 simply states that livestock owners and equine professionals cannot be held liable for injuries due to the inherent risk involved when around livestock.
With the amount of horses in this state the courts would be tied up if everyone injured by a horse wanted to sue. Shalom 

Like


This is a common mistake. First, it only protects you from those inherent risks. Should someone decide (along with an attorney that their loss wasn't from an inherent risk you could be sued. Without having liability you will have to pay the cost to defend yourself. Second most policyies are are limited to the $1mill/$2mill but you can buy umbrella's for larger amounts. If you just use your horses personally you homeowners should cover and personal umbrella should cover it. Generally raising you home liability from $300k to $1million cost about $25 a year. If you have an equine business you need to talk to someone that deals with that. there aren't a ton of companies that do, but Travelers is one, and ANPAC/Farm Family is another. 

Mortality is again something that is more specified and not every agent can do that. Message me if you want as we offer an agreed value policy with $5,000 for emergency colic surgery. You can also add medical if you wish.


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## stevenson

I sure wished California would adopt the liability laws that WY and TX have.
Its pretty bad when you have to triple insure yourself because some a hole will sue you for thier stupidity. In this state, if you have a hole on your property and you tell me dont step there, you could get hurt in that hole, and I step there I can sue you. Now how freakin dumb is that !! If i boarded and got hurt in an arena on My horse, I could sue the stable owner. stupid .


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## franknbeans

Stevenson-same way here in NY, which is where my horses are, which was why I asked the question. My residency is in VA, which HAS the better laws, but call me a cynic, someone can always find a way to sue you, or, the latest-even with signed waivers, their health insurance company coming after you for payment if they are injured. THis is why, I have all the balloons I can get on my home owners, and I have the seperate liability for the horses. The horse who does therapeutic riding is also insured by the place that uses him, and I am listed as a covered person as his owner. I like my homes, etc, and see the premiums as the best way to make sure I keep them.


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## dbarabians

The law in Texas was written to protect not only all livestock owners but the people who produce rodeos and horse shows.
If I give you faulty equipment for riding or have hazardous things lying around then you have the right to sue me.
If my horse kicks you throws you or my bull gores or charges you on my property I am protected from being sued. Shalom


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## franknbeans

DOes any of that protect you if your horse or bull gets out and someone dies as a result of, say, hitting it with a car? That is the kind of liability my regular insurance guy said I needed more coverage for. That and the fact that NY has the crappy laws it does.....


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## dbarabians

FrankN Beans when we switched policies last year the agent was not concerned about the horses and cattle he was concerned about the fences. He was here about 2 hours and with miles of fencing he was very concerned about the type and hieght. ( 4 1/2 feet tall and barbed wire} for the perimeter. He took a lot of pictures of the gates. We passed. If our cows or horses get out we are covered.
In Texas agriculture still plays a very large role in our economy.
Plus all those large ranches with all those cattle and horses also have lots of oil. The ranching and oil and gas industry are tied hand to hand and are well protected from lawsuits. Shalom


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## franknbeans

I wish NY would follow suit and use some common sense. But then, that is not so "common", is it?

Speaking of "common sense"......here is one that makes me smile every time. When I get this liability insurance I have to decide whether or not I want Terrorism coverage as part of it. Seriously. I have yet to go for that one.


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## Spirit Lifter

Does anyone know if the equine law exist in PA? Just wondering. Additionally, I will ride my horse in a parade July 4th for the local 4H. The local 4H does not carry any insurance (surprisingly). So I need to get insurance for the parade. Glad to see this post.


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## Spirit Lifter

Does anyone know if the equine law exist in PA? Just wondering. Additionally, I will ride my horse in a parade July 4th for the local 4H. The local 4H does not carry any insurance (surprisingly). So I need to get insurance for the parade. Glad to see this post so at least I know where to start.


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## rcshawk

SpiritLifter said:


> Does anyone know if the equine law exist in PA? Just wondering. Additionally, I will ride my horse in a parade July 4th for the local 4H. The local 4H does not carry any insurance (surprisingly). So I need to get insurance for the parade. Glad to see this post.





SpiritLifter said:


> Does anyone know if the equine law exist in PA? Just wondering. Additionally, I will ride my horse in a parade July 4th for the local 4H. The local 4H does not carry any insurance (surprisingly). So I need to get insurance for the parade. Glad to see this post so at least I know where to start.


 
I Kansas, once you join the Equine Council you can purchase a million dollar liabilty policy for equine for very little money (I think $100). It won't cover any equine business or commercial use, but would certainly be fine for those that don't have a farm and/or board. I am unsure whether it would provide coverage for competition. 

You really need to ask your agent if your home insirance covers pleasure use of your horses. Many times they limit the number to 2-3 before deciding you need a farm type of policy. If does, increase your limits! As an agent it so frustrating to see people (even non equine related) have lower limits, just because that is what has aways been sold.


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## rcshawk

I think what if generally boils down to is that 1) the sign needs to be posted, and 2) It is limited to those participating (generally). So if your horse went mad at a parade and stomped a child to death you probably will be held liable in most states. A great aide, but certainly doesn't absolve one of any liability...

There are only 4 states that don't have equine liability laws. They are listed below.

_Activity Liability Statutes (note that four states (CA, MD, NV, & NY) do not have laws)_ 

Summary of PA law:

_These statutes comprise Pennsylvania's Equine Activity Act, which sent into effect on February 21, 2006. Under the law, liability for negligence shall only be barred where knowing voluntary assumption of risk is proven in a particular case. However, the Act provides immunity only where a sign that states, "You assume the risk of equine activities pursuant to Pennsylvania law," is conspicuously posted on the premises in two or more locations. _

This is a summary of Texas' law:

_This Texas section provides that any person, including an equine activity sponsor, equine professional, livestock show participant, or livestock show sponsor, is not liable for property damage or damages arising from the personal injury or death of a participant in an equine activity or livestock show if the property damage, injury, or death results from the dangers or conditions that are an inherent risk of an equine activity or the showing of an animal on a competitive basis in a livestock show. Liability is not limited by this statute where the equine professional knowingly provided faulty tack or equipment, failed to make reasonable and prudent efforts to determine the ability of the participant to engage safely in the equine activity, owns or otherwise is in lawful possession of the land or facilities upon which the participant sustained injuries because of a known, dangerous latent condition, or if he or she commits an act or omission that constitutes willful or wanton disregard for the safety of the participant or intentionally injures the participant. The statute also requires the visible displaying of "clearly readable" warning signs that alert participants to the limitation of liability by law_

Link to the site.

Map of State Equine Activity Liability Statutes


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## franknbeans

Ok, so as I read that, even in Tx, your animals get out, you can be sued. So, even if I lived in Tx-I would still have insurance. The Tx law seems, to me to have lots of room for interpretation, which to me means more risk.


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## rcshawk

franknbeans said:


> Ok, so as I read that, even in Tx, your animals get out, you can be sued. So, even if I lived in Tx-I would still have insurance. The Tx law seems, to me to have lots of room for interpretation, which to me means more risk.


 
Equine laws genereally are directed at those that particpate in equine activities. I am not sure how they could create more risk, but they certainly don't prevent you from being held liable. They are generally meant to protect those that facilitate events (lessons, shows, competition, ect) from being held liable from *'the inherent risk'* of those events. You may or may not be held liable if your horses get out. In either case you can be sued... and should have adequate coverage to prevent loss.

IMO


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## franknbeans

That is exactly why I have my own insurance. Covering my tail. That way I can sleep at night.


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## dbarabians

The estate my family owns is insured to the hilt. We have 2 full time employees and 3 part time. Our policy does not cost more because of the horses and cattle. They were concerned more about the breed of dogs we have. There are signs here at the barn and corrals that are posted with Section 87 of the Civil code. Our employees do sign a waiver.
This is at the suggestion of our attorney.
If I allow you to ride a horse and I tell you it is completely broken and it is not then you may have a right to sue me.
This is why any time someone ask about the temperament of a horse I always say if they are breathing they can bite, buck , and kick.
I also live in a very rural area with most of the population farmers. The chances of you winning a lawsuit that is livestock related is slim to none.
Shalom


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## PaintHorseMares

dbarabians said:


> If I allow you to ride a horse and I tell you it is completely broken and it is not then you may have a right to sue me.
> This is why any time someone ask about the temperament of a horse I always say if they are breathing they can bite, buck , and kick.


Same here. The legal advice that we were given was to never predict future behavior even based on past behavior, e.g. I can truthfully say that our lead mare has never kicked/bucked/etc, but would never tell a rider that 'she will not/would never kick/buck/etc...'.

I also make sure that the rider tacks the horse themselves and checks all the tack if it is ours before mounting.


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## dbarabians

Paint, that is a good idea to have them saddle thier own horse. Let me add that to the rules around here. Shalom


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## rcshawk

BlueRed said:


> If I will get a liability insurance does it cover everything? I mean will I have a full coverage insurance policy? Or it is just an additional term?


I am not ssure what you meant here. If you get a policy as I suggested from the equine council it only covers personal horse liability. If you have home insurance liability they generally will cover personal use horses to a limited number. If you have a farm policy we always have farm and personal liability insurance attached. If you have an equine busines (sales, breeding, boardeing, training, lessons, ect) you need coverage for that business.


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## EqiuneQuote

Hi, I am with Laurel Fowler Insurance Broker, inc based in California, we specialize in Equine Insurance across the country and I just thought I would post this as a rate guide for people. Personal Horse Liability is different from Trainer or other horse business liability, but if you are not using your horse in any business activities and usually have less than 10 horses, Personal Horse Liability can be purchased. As a Guide:
Rate Guide: On 04/20/2012 the rates were:

$150.00* per year for $500,000.00 ($500,000.00 CSL/Occurrence, $1,000,000.00 General Aggregate).
$235.00* per year for the $1,000,000.00 ($1,000,000.00 CSL/Occurrence, $2,000,000.00 General Aggregate).
*Rates subject to change, price includes one (1) certificate of insurance, additional copies $25.00. 

These rates are good for 3-4 horses and then each addition horse is about $43.00 up to ten horses max.

Usually your homeowners excludes any horse coverage and as others have mentioned, some breed or group associations also offer liability coverage.

Daren Humphries
Laurel Fowler Insurance Broker, inc
www.EquineQuote.com


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