# Achieving Collection? Hmm...



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

GeminiJumper said:


> Hello everybody!
> 
> 
> I'm not really sure what I'm asking, so I'm sorry if this sounds confusing. I guess I'm looking for more information on collection and being on the bit.


 
First of all there are several threads (one recently) in the dressage section covering this subject.

As far as the pictures are concerned................

The top two I throw out because collection cannot be achieved on a horse not moving). In the other two pictures, no the horse is not in proper collection. No contact with the bit.


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## GeminiJumper (Jun 12, 2008)

Okay. Thanks.


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## GeminiJumper (Jun 12, 2008)

Anybody else? I wasn't able to find that other article.


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## FoxyRoxy1507 (Jul 15, 2008)

in the bottom two pics your tipping forward and ur hands are way too low and there is no contact with the bit so there is no collection, you need to be driving her more forward at this point and pic your hands up


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

GeminiJumper said:


> Anybody else? I wasn't able to find that other article.


 
http://www.horseforum.com/dressage/really-understanding-collection-43019/


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Your biggest problem is that you are creating a headset to 'induce' collection.

A horse's head falls on the vertical due to _proper conditioning_.

Putting your horse's head back in order to _create_ said-proper conditioning, is backwards, and ultimately, inefficient.

You can argue that you're not pulling, and I would agree. You're doing something that is harder to train out--you are making a horse trained to _back away from the bit_. If a horse is supposed to create contact with the rein and take out the slack themselves, your horse will never do this. The moment she feels rein pressure, she was taught to release.

This is very hard to train out of a horse; the first thing I would start would be long and low, and your horse _reaching_ for contact with your hands. Push your horse forward but don't restrict. You've got your work cut out for you if you want to work towards real collection.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

mayfieldk said:


> Your biggest problem is that you are creating a headset to 'induce' collection.
> 
> A horse's head falls on the vertical due to _proper conditioning_.
> 
> ...


 Too right. The 20 year old I just got for my dad to learn on travels like this. Doesn't matter how much leg you put on and how much rein you throw away, that head does NOT come off his chest! I cannot for the life of me put him straight into long and low, it's next to impossible as he is so stuck in that frame. Instead, I use a million transitions, changes of rein and SHOULDER IN! About 10minutes of this and he starts to pick up his back and take up the contact. Being 20, it's going to be difficult to totally correct this behaviour, and since he is intended for my beginner father to ride, not myself, I'm not going to mess with him too much.

Sorry for the long story, but yes, a horse that drops back off a contact is an absolute ****** of a thing to correct!


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Collection ironically has nothing to do with the horse's head. It's all in getting him to use his hind end to bear weight instead of just using it to propel the front end forward. Once the hind end bears more weight, the front end, aka the shoulders become lighter, and the whole front end lightens up. It just happens to result in the head coming into that pretty head set, but it's just an after-affect of the shoulders being lighter. 

There's a good book and helped me really start to understand how to properly manipulate my horse's hind and front end to get him to start to transfer weight toward the back of the bus. It's called Build a Better Athlete. It's 20 exercises. Some may seem very basic, but if you do them correctly, you'll start to feel your horse change underneath you and start to get an idea of what proper body usage really feels like. 

From the pics, it looks like you ride with kind hands since your horse is giving to the bit very nicely. You probably already have the relaxation part going for you. Good luck.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

believe it or not you can achieve collectiogn without that much contact... I have seen people collect a horse without a contact. (well, onyl one person to be truthfull, lol) just wanted to throw that out there for all those people saying you need contact to acheive collection.  by the way, geminijumper... you are on your way to achieving collection!! just keep working, it will eventually come


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Why is she on the way when she is putting the head into a false frame? (sorry OP... but it is what it is.)

Contact is not needed, but _correct_ contact and a horse moving it's neck forward and _up_ is needed. Your horse is moving her neck back and in.

Curious, is the first picture from the western barn at Findlay?


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

mayfieldk said:


> Why is she on the way when she is putting the head into a false frame? (sorry OP... but it is what it is.)
> 
> I think, in the three horses in those pictures, the OP's horse appears to be the most receptive to the bit and will most likely seek the contact when ridden correctly instead of brace against the bit. If that's the case, then she is on her way to at least a correct start.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

The OP is riding in a kimberwick style bit. This bit does not encourage a horse to move into the bridle and use contact constructively, in my opinion. But it will teach them to back away from it.

You might consider trying a french link or simple snaffle and try again.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I don't understand why people always refer to collection before they have even acheived a horse with a swinging back on 'on the bit'??? Collection comes after these basics, collection comes from a soft back, from correct muscling, from correct work, a horse that at least knows basic laterals etc. Hence why you don't see any 'collected' paces until elementary in dressage. Below elementary, all judges want to see is the horse working actively forward, seeking the bridle and swinging the back.

So really, the OP is not working on attaining collection, but more so just to understand how to get her horse working over it's back and into her hands.


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## ShaNeighNeigh (Dec 13, 2009)

i didn't read all the posts. 

but i would just like to say a good way to test if a horse is carrying himself (collection/comiing over the back) is to give with the reins (or let your horse chew the reins out of your hands) and see if your horse stretches down to seek the contact with the bit, if he does than you are working over the horses back and working from back to front.

if your horse raises his head and looks around you were in a false frame.

to me in the pics it doesn't seem that your horse is in a false frame and that you have the right idea).

your horse doesn't seem to be broken in the 3rd vertabrae (except in the first photo of you standing your horse is behind the bit there.) you need to push him into his halt/his bridle the same way you would in the trot and canter.

by the way you wrote in your OP it seems like you have the correct way.

pushing your horse into the bridle from his hind legs so he works over the back. 

i do believe you first have to have relaxation, rythym and straightness before collection.


if you feel your horse get heavy in your hand that is a sign he needs more forward from your leg. also if he wants to stretch down in trot let him ( i know alot of people who want to keep there horse head up and "on the bit" and never let them stretch down and do a stretchy circle so there horse seeks the contact and works over there back MORE.

it is a great exercise.

i hate the term "on the bit" because it brings image of just a horses neck being on the bit instead of the horses energy moving from the impulsion of the hindlegs over the back and up the neck to the bit. also i hate the term "frame" as it is brings the same image as above. and doesn't allow one to think of elastic contact and softness.

i would much rather think "is he through?" and working over his back?

NOW FOR THE PICS:

pics of him standing: he is being brought into a frame by the hands and not from coming up from his hindlegs overhis back, as i said you have to push your horse into the bridle just like in walk,trot and canter for him not to be in a false fram and behind the bit. when you halt, think squeeze with your legs and block forward motion with your hands so that he halts under himself.

The riding pics: in the second to last pic it looks good, your horse is infront of the verticle( it is a good thing and means he is using his baskc and hindlegs) and seems to be raising his back and reaching under himself. he is not broken in the 3rd (good thing).

the last pic he has lost impulsion but is not being forced into a frame by the hands. more forwardness and he will regain the contact and reach farther under himself.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

^^ I don't think the OP's horse is using his back in those riding photos. The back is hollow, with the croup higher than the wither, and is no where near tracking it. It simply has it's head in and is pottering around with no engagement.


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## ShaNeighNeigh (Dec 13, 2009)

if you read my entire post ( badly typo'ed but it was after 10 mins and couldn't edit) i wrote " more forwardness and he will regain the contact and reach farther under himself. " which to me means that i believe the horse isn't reaching under to his full potential"

we also do not know the conformation of this horse (maybe he is built a bit downhill? he is also NOT being ridden on level ground in the second to last picture and looks like is riding on downhill ground.

in the last pic he looks to be making a turn (or dropping his shoulder but the riders head is slightly turned so i will assume turn) .

good teachers point out the good AND bad qualities instead of just the bad.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

What level of experience do you have ShaNeighNeigh ?


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

ShaNeighNeigh said:


> if you read my entire post ( badly typo'ed but it was after 10 mins and couldn't edit) i wrote " more forwardness and he will regain the contact and reach farther under himself. " which to me means that i believe the horse isn't reaching under to his full potential"
> 
> we also do not know the conformation of this horse (maybe he is built a bit downhill? he is also NOT being ridden on level ground in the second to last picture and looks like is riding on downhill ground.
> 
> ...


Yep but am I a teacher? Nope. And don't plan to be one either  PLus, if my coach told me that the sun shined out of my backside every lesson I would find someone who nitpicked. If you don't hear the negatives- along with an explanation of WHY it is a negative, you're never going to learn. And I think I have stated pretty clearly the sort of work the OP should do if she wants to get her horse through. 
And down hill.... so? I'll have to dig out a photo of a Qhxappy mare that I had for a while. SHE was downhill, the OP's horse has nothing on her  And I competed her at State dressage championships up to elementary training some medium movements etc. within a year, from having done nothing other than a few trail rides. 
I really don't care if the horse is downhill if youre just wanting to get it over its back.


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## ShaNeighNeigh (Dec 13, 2009)

Kayty said:


> Yep but am I a teacher? Nope. And don't plan to be one either  PLus, if my coach told me that the sun shined out of my backside every lesson I would find someone who nitpicked. If you don't hear the negatives- along with an explanation of WHY it is a negative, you're never going to learn. And I think I have stated pretty clearly the sort of work the OP should do if she wants to get her horse through.
> And down hill.... so? I'll have to dig out a photo of a Qhxappy mare that I had for a while. SHE was downhill, the OP's horse has nothing on her  And I competed her at State dressage championships up to elementary training some medium movements etc. within a year, from having done nothing other than a few trail rides.
> I really don't care if the horse is downhill if youre just wanting to get it over its back.


hmm, i don't know why you are reading into my posts and putting words in them that aren't there... but here is more clarification for you.

i didn't say to only point out the positives either. positives and negatives need to be accompanied together or else people will get frustrated.

also if you don't want to teach, why are you on this thread?

just to clarify. i saw nowhere in the original post the question " is my horse collected?" ( though i will look again) it seems she wanted to know if her horse was through and working from back to front properly.

but i will humor you and carry on the subject of collection

as you (or someone)stated in an earlier post, collection and self carriage takes muscle and proper conditioning....so if this horse is downhill and just starting to get proper conditioning, it is hardly fair for us to pick it apart. even with correct riding it will take time.

i am saying is we don't know alot about this horse's conformation ,fitness level etc for us to pic it apart or the riding.

we only know what we see from a picture that is only what is happening that second.

you can take a picture of a horse that is being ridden FEI grand prix and have a split second look downhill and not tracking up and the rest of the test look amazing.

if you looked at the main subject of my post i pointed out a good way for the OP HERSELF to test if her horse is in self carriage. Not us. and explain how a horse reaches over his back from the impulsion of the hindlegs.

the top of the pyramid scale is collection. but you can't have collection without impulsion and coming over the horse back, you keep talking like it is a different thing all together and that they are seperate. when really collection is the end point of impulsion

collection is recycling the energy of the hindlegs over the back up the neck and back again.

*collection* is inextricably connected to extension.

i agreed the horse could come under himself more.

also a horse CAN be high withered and low in the croup and still not be collected and be INVERTED (leg mover).

examples would be of a horse doing piaffe and have the animation of the front end and raising, but no lowering of the croup and no animation of the hock. i see a lot of Grand prix horses today with all forhand action no hindleg action. 

which would be called a flat,contracted piaffe.
just because a horse raises his front end doesn't mean he is collected. there also has to be lowering of the hindend.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Which is exactly what I have been battling out on my thread in the dressage section, that horse now are all front legs and nothing behind, that they are NOT collected, they cannot collect in that 'frame' enter rolkur debate here. 
You're not telling me anything I don't know.

As for teaching, I'm simply giving an opinion and stating what I know. I'm not going out teaching people in real life, yes I've trained a couple of riders here and there, but in no way is that my passion. There's a difference between teaching, and stating points over the internet, the OP does not even have to look at anything I have said.

Anyway, whats with the raised hackles? We're arguing the same point.


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## ShaNeighNeigh (Dec 13, 2009)

Spyder said:


> What level of experience do you have ShaNeighNeigh ?


I have ridden through PSG and have trained Grand Prix movements). i am a bronze and silver medalist.

I am now a working student for a well known A circuit trainer in the jumper world in California. (Training Dressage is Fun, Jumpers are my passion)


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## ShaNeighNeigh (Dec 13, 2009)

Kayty said:


> Which is exactly what I have been battling out on my thread in the dressage section, that horse now are all front legs and nothing behind, that they are NOT collected, they cannot collect in that 'frame' enter rolkur debate here.
> You're not telling me anything I don't know.
> 
> As for teaching, I'm simply giving an opinion and stating what I know. I'm not going out teaching people in real life, yes I've trained a couple of riders here and there, but in no way is that my passion. There's a difference between teaching, and stating points over the internet, the OP does not even have to look at anything I have said.
> ...


i was going to edit my post to add we are agreeing.

but darn forum wouldn't let me edit my post.:lol:

I do Hope the OP looks at your posts, you are very knowledgeable. we probably agree on the rollkur and how dressage today isn't really the classical dressage of yesterday.


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## ShaNeighNeigh (Dec 13, 2009)

deleted--- double post.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Ok, truce  Its funny how the internet can get things heated, when if you were talking it out face to face, you'd be agreeing! 
Sounds like you've done a bit of everything, I'd love to do a little bit of jumping. I did it as a pony club kid, but my pony put me off big time when she started bolting after every jump then stopping dead. For a 10year old kid thats a bit daunting, getting flung over a ponys head at a million miles an hour. I haven't done much jumping since. 
Never know, in the future I might be coming to you for jumping advice! Gotta find me a horse though!


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

This might help some of you that would like to enter one of the longest arguments to do with horses.



http://www.equinestudies.org/true_collection_2008/true_collection_2008_pdf1.pdf


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## GeminiJumper (Jun 12, 2008)

Thank you everyone for your thoughts and opinions! I really do appreciate it. I'm the type of person that wants lots of critique because I love having something to work at in order to be the best rider I can be.

After reading everyone's replies, I've realized that I'm kind of on the right track but not really!  Oh well. So now my question is for everyone who replied is:

What do I do now to get to collection?

Is it the chain on the Kimberwick that is having her back off the bit? (The chain is adjusted correctly.)

Sorry I don't have any conformation pictures of her! I know some of you had mentioned you would like to see conformation pictures.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Have you tried her in a snaffle? I'd much rather you had her in a snaffle to start out. It's a kinder bit, and IMO a horse should go kindly in a snaffle before being moved into a harsher bit- flatwork/dressage of course, jumping is different I assume!

You don't want to aim directly at collection. People who do so usually end up pulling the head in and kicking, to get a really slow trot with a jamemd in head and yell out 'woohoo I've got collection!'. 
Take things in slow steps, so first, you want her to react immediately off your aids. You put your leg on, she needs to move off it immediately. If she doesn't, she's not sensitive enough on the basics to even attempt looking at collection. 
You need to have her soft and relaxed through all transitions and changes of rein. 
Does she know any lateral work? Leg yield and shoulder in particuarly. These are great for lightening the shoulders-forehand and starting to loosen the back. 
I also love counter canter to get the horse REALLY using it's back. Once you have a consistant, soft working canter, start riding her down the 3/4 line and leg yield her back to the track in canter. Gradually start riding shallow loops in canter and once she's comfortable with this, you can start counter canter on circle/turns etc. 

MILLIONS of transitions every ride. Never ride more than 10 strides at the same tempo. So within a gait, ask for a little more length of stride, then a little less, a little more etc. etc. This keeps their brain ticking over, and will engage the hind legs and soften the back.

Collection isn't something that happens overnight. When I start with a horse it is at least a month of constant work until I even contemplate thinking of colelction itself. All the other work is just the lead up to it.
You need to have a horse that is consistant in walk trot and canter with a loose back, engaged hind end and is happy to bend, flex and move forwards, backwards and sideways with the horse happy to take a contact. From that, you can then start demanding the horse shift a little more weight onto its hind quarters and then you start thinking collection.

One thing to think about is that yes ultimately all your work is aiming at collection, but having a horses head down is not collection, and collection does not comeone day when you decide you want to 'learn' how to do it. Colletion also comes in degrees as the horse builds strength and confidence to transfer his weight. 
The horses you see competing preliminary and novice are not in collection, they are performing 'working' gaits in which they are soft, relaxed and engaged- the step which leads to collection 

Sorry that I havent been thorough in my help here, it is near impossible to describe, explain and teach collection over the internet. You really do need a good dressage ho will not just tell you to use a gadget to pull the horses head in. We can generalise on the internet, but achieving certain degrees of education in a horse varies greatly between horses, they all react in different ways and you need to adjust your method in accordance to this. Hence why it is best to have 'eyes on the ground' who can help you in the moment.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

GeminiJumper said:


> Is it the chain on the Kimberwick that is having her back off the bit? (The chain is adjusted correctly.)


Just what kind of kimberwick are you using. Jointed or unjointed?


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## GeminiJumper (Jun 12, 2008)

Thanks Kayty. I will definitely start working on all that when I head back to school. The school horses go on a Christmas break as well as us, so when I go back, I'll go back a bit earlier and start working her; getting her back in shape. Concentrating on lots of transitions, becoming light off my leg, lateral work and loosening up her back. Correct?


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## GeminiJumper (Jun 12, 2008)

Spyder said:


> Just what kind of kimberwick are you using. Jointed or unjointed?


An unjointed kimberwick.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

GeminiJumper said:


> An unjointed kimberwick.


 
Well at least it was the better of the two.

In answer to your last question take a read at this link--

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-articles/my-article-part-1-a-16171/

Just note that the article was written assuming the person would be using a simple snaffle.


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