# Bought a new mare & previous owner wants to retain foal now



## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

This is pretty tough. Did you know the mare was pregnant when you bought her, etc., as in you both talked about it? Personally, I would say that if she wanted the foal, she should have sold the mare after it was born, although there's also the argument that you didn't pay for the foal... What a situation!


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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

If she sold the mare to you AS IS and didnt put anything in the sales contract about the foal then it is yours. Reguardless of if you didnt pay for it. For now its still with the mare and since the mare is your so is the foal.


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

TexasBlaze said:


> If she sold the mare to you AS IS and didnt put anything in the sales contract about the foal then it is yours. Reguardless of if you didnt pay for it. For now its still with the mare and since the mare is your so is the foal.


<br />
Even if she still has her registration papers and the foals papers? She owns the stud as well. Can she make it so that I can't register the foal?<br />
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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

If youve gotten a written bill that states the right information she is yours. She could potentially keep the foal from being registered if she hasn't turned in a breeding certificate for the mare.


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

Yes once I decided I wanted the mare she mentioned that she may be in foal and has a 50% chance that the foal might be born LWO.
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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

She turned in the breeders certificate but she has it still
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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

Actually i dont think its possible to have more than a 25% chance of a LWO. 

The breeding certificate isnt the papers the foals owner needs. Basically its stating to the association that the mare has been bred at that time to that stallion. The foal can be registered once that has been turned in reguardles if she gives you the papers or not i believe. Id call the association just to be sure however. I've never registered an APHA foal.


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

Bill of sale states;
Sold to (my name) 
(horses name) for the amount of $()
and will pay for delivery and pay fir vet bill for coggins & health certificate and I then signed it that's it no date and she didn't sign it.
I'm screwed huh?
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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

Wow so my goal should be now to get the mares papers ASAP then?
I will call them to be sure
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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

Almost. Is there any way you can ask the cops about what to do?

Personally id go to her and tell her that i was picking up my mare and getting all her papers. If she refuses tell her youll be going to the police. If she's breeding LWO while knowing theres that risk i doubt she cares about the mare and foal enough to go to court over and itll stop there.


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

Glad to hear it's only 25% chance and not 50%
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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

25% chance is still one hack of a lot sadly. Definitally read up about it and have a vet ready in case the worst happens. I had a friend who bought a bred mare and the foal was LWO. She still gets upset when they become a topic of discussion.


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

See I'd go get her now but I'm waiting on my next check to be able to pay for her to be delivered as I don't have my own trailer yet. But I agree about her not caring as far as breeding LWO and don't think she would press the issue if I threatened going to court
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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

I just know when she brings the mare to my barn she's going to have a stupid contract for me to sign saying she keeps the foal and I'm not going to sign anything saying that
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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

This may be a silly question, and a bit off-topic, but what exactly is LWO?


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

I know its still a chance that shouldnt gave been taken, the mare should have never been bred to this stud
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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

LWO os Lethal White Overo. Its a homozygous Frame overo baby. Theyre born solid white with molted skin and are absolutely beautiful. However their digestive systems arent fully developed so they start suffering from colic like symptoms and never survive. Its generally better to have them put down as it causes them less pain.


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

Lethal white overo where the foal is born white and dies within 72 hours of being born
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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

Oh, okay, thank you. That sounds horrible...


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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

Oh im not blaming you at all! I think its wonderful your taking this baby into consideration! I would be terrified to the idea of even a chance of a LWO baby. I have a frame mare and im worried even though she's never been bred and will never be bred to a LWO stallion O-o. 

I say get the mare away from her by any means necessary (within legal limits) as youve already paid for her and she is yours. The baby wasnt stated in the contract so she has no right to it.


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

And how do I go about getting her papers then? I been trying to remain as friendly as possible with her until I get my horse off her property.
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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

Heres some info on it.

Lethal white syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

as well as a photo


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

I'm going to ask her to sent the papers tomorrow and hopefully she will. She was supposed to send them a week ago but I've been trying to remain paticent and friendly for now
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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

I would tell her that i expect them. If you bought her her papers go with her unless they were selling her as grade which it didnt state in the contract. Again if she refuses, tell her you have other means of retaining them that will be less plesant for her.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Well unless she relinquishes the papers willingly and signs the transfer papers, there is nothing you can do except take legal action. She can & probably will not sign the papers to register the foal either. Messy.


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

Thank you you've been a lot if help. I will update as things go along. Hoping for the best here.
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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

How could she not sign the papers to register the foal if she already sent in the papers saying the mare may be in foal to this stud. And now I bought the mare so she is mine? Sorry just confused more now
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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

How could she retain the registering of the foal wares? If she's already sent in the breeding certificate she's out of the equation and the owner of the mare at the time she gives birth is considered the breeder of the foal correct?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Truthfully, you may stand a better chance of getting a solid answer if you consult with a civil lawyer from your area. There are so many little laws and precedents that can be different even from county to county, let alone state to state. Any information you get here may have no actual legal or civil standing where you are living.

If you want to fight for the baby and have the opportunity to register him, you may end up in a legal battle...so it may be best to involve an attorney now, before the whole thing gets complicated.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

How can she? Easy, she just doesn't sign them. She sent in a breeders report. When the foal is born, she sends in a breeders certificate, which she will do and put herself as owner if she keeps the papers on the mare & doesn't transfer them into your name. Then you got a legal hassle. Don't pay no one until you got all the paperwork in your hot little hands. In fact, how did you pay her? Cheque? Cancel it.


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

I think it's already gotten complicated lol but okay I don't care enough for a registered foal to go throughout all the legal crap so if I really want to keep it I will settle for a grade horse who will be with me for life as I wouldnt sell it. Papers are great but not 100% needed .<br />
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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

Eep. That sounds like a terrible situation. So you have a bill of sale but she didn't sign it anywhere?


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

I paid her in cash. So I will be in the clear once she transfers the mares papers into my name? Is that what your saying?
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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

Thirteenacres- yup
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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

Would APHA be able to give me a clear answer to my questions do you think?
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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

If she transfers the mare into your name, you now own the mare. When the foal is born, she cannot put into her name HOWEVER, she can neglect to send in a breeder's certificate preventing your foal from being registered. Again, another mess. Never use cash in a transaction unless you don't want the transaction traced, like a money laundering.


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

This is just great always learning new things too late ugh!
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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

ALWAYS get a contract written up dated and signed by both of you, and a receipt of payment. I bought a foal in-utero and my breeder and I both dated and signed a foaling contract and I kept all receipts of payments that I made through PayPal. Otherwise, it's her word against your's and everything gets messy and tangled. But, if you're fine with not having the foal registered, then don't sign anything and let her know that you plan to keep the foal. She is now your mare thanks to the bill of purchase and the foal that may be in her belly is your property.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Personally, I would tell her to return my money in full and keep the mare & the foal and I'd go buy another horse. There are way too many nice horses available out there to put up with crap from anyone.


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

Well now I know. I will try to get her papers tomorrow first thing.
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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

Yeahhh. I was making payments on a horse years ago in cash, and when situations got complicated and I asked for my money back, they refused to give it back. It was too little to really fight it and I just sucked it up to a lesson learned. =(


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

Yeah I'm trying to keep things friendly I'd hate for things to go south between us. I will talk with her more about it only once she transfers the mare over to me as Im not against working with her a lil but I feel like if she wants to get the foal back then she will have to pay any vet bills that retain to the mare foaling and what not.
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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

You payed for the mare. You have a bill of sale. You have an agreement for her to transport the mare for X amount of dollars. You bought her as a registered horse.
Take your mare. Borrow the money if you have to and get her off that property. If there is an ad floating around where you saw her as registered GET a copy. Even a computer screen shot emailed to yourself would help if the mares registration becomes an issue. When you go to have her transported, call the police and give them a heads up. That way if you call they are already looking out for YOUR interests as well as hers. 
I'd consider going by the local precinct with a copy of my Bill of Sale before picking her up. She can come back and charge you with a few days board, so be ready to shell out some cash on the spot. She may even ask to hold her papers till she is paid the board fee. Then it would all be up to a judge and she would still have possession of the mare and your cash until a judge ruled on it. If she got a couple breaks and could put the court date off, POOF foal is born, poof foal was LWO and died, come get your mare and pay me board fees, and you go pick up your mare and hear her not dead foal screaming for his Mom.

It happens a lot. Situations differ, but I saw one played out almost exactly like this. The mare was unsound for future breeding, lame, foal was later proven to be alive, (the previous owner registered the "dead" foal) and the person owed a HUGE boarding bill and lots of vet bills.

*shrugs* it is your horse, bottom line. Don't knuckle under if you really want this mare. I am sure her previous owner will offer to "board the mare" while she is in foal, if she is pregnant. I wouldn't fall for it.


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## HagonNag (Jul 17, 2010)

If you REALLY want this horse, listen to Rascaholic and take steps to back up your position. Or you could get your money refunded and walk. Let her have the foal. You need to decide and sooner is better than later.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

You could always write up a contract pertaining to the foal. She wants it, let her pay for the expenses. Make her agree to pay for any and all vet care the foal might need, including the vet costs to uthinize a OLWS foal. This should not be a free of expenses foal for her to sell the mare and get the foal back. Have it in writing that the vet will be doing a well baby check within 24 hours of birth, which they are to pay for as well as any additional costs pertaining to the foal. If this baby is lethal white, make her pay for her stupidity by handing her the bills. Contract needs to be signed and dated by both parties, then make a photocopy so you each have the signed agreement in hand.

Good luck


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

The thing is that she said she only wants it if it's black and white like the stud. She said it will be bay buckskin blk/white or LWO. How would I write that into a contract. I've never written one out and want to be sure I do it right. She told me she mailed the mares papers to me this morning as well so that's good.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Writing all these contracts does no good if she doesn't sign them. Frankly, I am still in amazement that you gave this lady cash and got NOTHING to show for it. If that is true, it turns into he said/she said, and without a reciept of some sort, she owes you NOTHING. You can print out all the ads you want. Makes no difference if she says she didn't get the money. I also think it is a huge mistake to rely on her for transport. I would be getting someone else, and going and getting my horse. I also would probably tell her whatever she wants to hear (nothing in writing) until I got something in writing that the horse is bought and paid for. THEN , and only then, would I tell her to go fan her a$$.


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

I sent a couple hundred after the fact via paypal so I do have some record


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

Jewelsb said:


> The thing is that she said she only wants it if it's black and white like the stud. She said it will be bay buckskin blk/white or LWO. How would I write that into a contract. I've never written one out and want to be sure I do it right. She told me she mailed the mares papers to me this morning as well so that's good.


I hope she did mail them. Get your horse off her property. Then tell her you want her to sign the bill of sale, mention that a friend told you she has to sign it to transfer registration papers. (If I am not mistaken you do have to have it to transfer paperwork) When you get the paperwork, stop responding to this woman. And please please please!!!! Stop discussing the possible foal with her!!

ETA: I'd get her to email, mail, or otherwise in writing explain exactly WHEN she mailed the paperwork. Sounds to me like a "checks in the mail" situation.


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

Okay and if I do this the foal will surely be grade right? Just trying to see all my options


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I hope you'll get the mare and papers out of there. And especially that baby won't be LWO (I've seen 2 in place my paint came from.... sincerely hope I'll never see it again!  )! 

Folks, what about registration with DNA test? Would it be something to consider for the foal to get registered?


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

I'm not sure how the registration works Jewelsb. You can contact her registry and ask them. It's a simple as a phone call or email in most cases. Even a grade foal deserves a better shot than someone who will breed a possible LWO foal. It horrific how they die if they are not put down. 

I didn't stop to think, you may not want the foal, or be equipped to handle it and not mind it going back to previous owner. I should have clarified that earlier. 

No matter what you decide, if you want this mare, get her off the property ASAP. The longer she stays there the better the claim against you. My friend who wound up losing the mare and foal she worked so hard for, well she doesn't even ride now

Kitten Val has a valid point. ( I forget about possible DNA testing. I'm old, forgive me LOL) When you call about transfer information, foal registration, ask about the DNA testing. IF I remember correctly it isn't that expensive anymore.


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## sapphiresrider (Dec 19, 2011)

This is a tricky one :/ I'm not sure what to say really. But I hope it all works out in the end!


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I would go over there & have her sign the papers in person, that is if she didn't really send them. Also a bill of sale, that is a must. 
Move the horse then let things work themselves out. Is this a foal that is due next year?


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

If you have the foal on your place (and you wont let your horse out of your hands) and she retains the foal and you cant get the foal. Make her sign a contract. 
Your time foaling- $200
Extra feed -$300
Extra vet- $200
Not being able to use your mare - $---

There is always ways to get your way. Make it look like she is going to take a $ loss by her keeping the foal.


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## HagonNag (Jul 17, 2010)

<----Total cynic here. I'm with Rascaholic on this. There is a REASON that the term horse trader generally means a crook. There are WAY too many ways to screw up the transfer of ownership of a horse besides just misrepresenting the horse (and that happens a lot too!)

She_ says_ the papers are in the mail. Do you have a bill of sale? If you do, I'd go get the horse NOW. And don't discount getting the foal registered. No one can foresee the future. You say you want to keep the foal forever (If it's healthy) and you don't care about registering him, but things happen. As a general rule, a foal with papers is more valuable than a foal without papers. *ANYTHING that increases the value* *of a horse is a plus for that horse*. Training, breeding, papers, temperament -- they all can make the difference between being treasured in a good home, or being cast aside. I treasure my horse, but I'm very aware that I'm probably the only one who would put up with his temperament. 

You have proof of $200 payment. She could say it was a downpayment.

Don't say another word to her about the foal unless you get her signature on a contract to pay for all expenses of the foal - and I'd specify a live foal. That way she's responsible even if it's a LW. She doesn't get to choose color or condition. She either pays for the foal, or it's yours.

Good Luck. I hope everything works out for the best. :hug:


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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

I definitely agree that I'd hire someone to go get the horse asap and act as if it is completely normal and agreed upon to do so. Then you have the ball in your court and are on your own turf. If an argument breaks out before moving the horse, it could very well just disappear overnight never to be seen again. 

It is good you have some paypal receipts. Even if it only shows partial payment, it shows that you did in fact have SOME agreement on a purchase, and it may give some credibility to your claim if one has to be made.

Good luck! Keep us updated!


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## DressageDreamer (Feb 29, 2012)

Wow...this about gave me a headache. What a mess. I will say in the OP's defense, that many sellers will not accept a check and will only take cash. However, I have never purchased a horse without getting a bill of sale showing that I paid in full in cash with the seller's signature on it. 

I agree to have someone go pick up the mare....a friend or hire someone. I sure hope this works out. Sounds like quite the precidiment.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Police or Sheriff officers do not decide things like this.

They are 'civil matters' and a suit has to be filed and decided by a judge in Civil Court to settle any property dispute - which this is. 

If you do not have her signature or a good witness, you are stuck. I would probably ask for my money back because she said nothing about 'keeping' any foal she might have. I would tell her that you are going to contact the APHA and complain to them that you feel you have been cheated and you plan to file suit to get all of the papers and breeders' Certificate, etc by Court Order if she does not give you your money back right away.

If a person ever does have to go to court to get registration papers or the like, the Associations will give out papers as per 'Court Order'. 

Just getting your money back would be your best and cheapest option at this point. If she is in foal, you will lose several months' riding time with a pregnant and nursing mare. You would have much greater care and feed in a pregnant and nursing mare that she should have to pay for. You should not have to pay for her feed and care that whole time if the foal goes back to her.


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

Thanks for all the responses it's put all this into perspective but I'm not give the mare back to her I will wait til I get her papers to take further action. We are on friendly terms right now so I should be good for now.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

Jewelsb said:


> Thanks for all the responses it's put all this into perspective but I'm not give the mare back to her I will wait til I get her papers to take further action. We are on friendly terms right now so I should be good for now.


Good luck with this Jewelsb!!! Please keep us updated. Oh, and pictures are going to be required when you get your girl home


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

I hope you can keep this on friendly terms-at least until you have possession of the mare. When is she due? Her getting the foal only if it is a certain color really "muddies" the water. Sending you a peace & serenity vibe.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I'm with Dreamcatcher. IMO, too, get your money back and get another horse. This woman is weird and the whole thing could become a BIG headache. Take it from someone who went through several years of losing horses to old age and ill health. If you take the mare home and IF she has lethal white foal, it will TEAR YOU UP to put it down or watch it die.
Let HER deal with the repercussions of breeding poorly. A Vet CAN abort the foal, if she wanted it.
_I don't get it =/
_Every horse I've every bought was home the next day, except for my "rescue", and the wait was until they had checked me and my references out. Still, I paid the fee and had him home SAME DAY.
When I bought my KMH--big head, left--*the breeders asked for a Cashier's check from my bank. * I scanned _that_ for my records _before_ I drove to their place to buy him.
I'd lawyer up. DH does $100 consults for _other than the norm types of cases._ (He does TR, DIV, CRIM, trail-type cases) Call around and see if you can get some good advice. *I think she intends to keep your money and keep the mare.* You don't have your new property (the mare) home, you don't have a bill of sale, and cash leaves no evidence of your payment.
Often a letter with an attorney letterhead is enough to shake the fear of God into people like this.


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

I believe she isn't trying to keep her. I will get the mare I'm not worried about that part. The mare is due in the beginning of October. My husband was with me when we went to look at the mare and paid for her so I do have a witness and works for the government I'm sure she won't mess with trying to keep my $ and our horse. We had to have her hold the mare because we had to set up quarantine at our stable and can only bring her into quarentine when there's a spit open.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Sorry. Didn't know that part.


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

That's fine I forgot to mention it.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

October? Is that the start of summer or winter where you live?


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

It would be winter here


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

Just for future reference....when you buy a horse, you should always receive/demand the certificate and signed transfer paper along with the bill of sale when you pay in full. The papers are part of the deal...accept nothing less.


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## HagonNag (Jul 17, 2010)

A foal due at the beginning of winter. And possibly LW. Does this woman have ANY idea of what she's doing?????


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

Even better go find what a lease is going for It should be around $200 a month and charge her that per month you cant ride your horse before and untill weaned after.


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## greenbryerfarms (Apr 9, 2012)

kitten_Val said:


> I hope you'll get the mare and papers out of there. And especially that baby won't be LWO (I've seen 2 in place my paint came from.... sincerely hope I'll never see it again!  )!
> 
> Folks, what about registration with DNA test? Would it be something to consider for the foal to get registered?


They wount do dna sadly. I have offerd huge ammouts of money and they all turned me down! Sorry. But they want paperwork...and when you rescue horses you don't get that
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Jewelsb said:


> I believe she isn't trying to keep her. I will get the mare I'm not worried about that part. The mare is due in the beginning of October. My husband was with me when we went to look at the mare and paid for her so I do have a witness and works for the government I'm sure she won't mess with trying to keep my $ and our horse. We had to have her hold the mare because we had to set up quarantine at our stable and can only bring her into quarentine when there's a spit open.


I think this is a bit naive. First, a spouse is certainly not an impartial witness, so I would be hesitant to count on that one. And, not to sound rude, but what does working for the government have to do with anything? Is that supposed to make someone seem more reliable? Living in the Metro DC area, I can tell you that definitely is NOT true. Shoot-I used to work for the VA-technically I worked for the government too? Perhaps if he is some CIA operative, FBI, or NSA, but then, most of those folks that I know are the "if I tell you what I do I will have to kill you" type, at least that is what we locals refer to them as.......:wink:


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

I didn't want to specify but thanks for your uncalled for criticism you sound like a real sweetie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

So what does working for the government have to do with it? You are the one who brought it up.


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

_Moderator note:

Uncalled for reply.
_


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## greenbryerfarms (Apr 9, 2012)

Jewelsb said:


> Can u lay off and find someone else to mess with I'm not going to answer any questions you have. I have better things to deal with such as my mother passing away yesterday.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry for your loss
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

I am sorry you lost your mother, but that does not negate the fact that you are here asking for assistance with this situatio - or that answering questions specifically related to the story you are telling is part of getting that advice. If you are too upset at the loss of your mother, understandable, to participate in the discussion at the moment, then perhaps not participating would be better so that you can focus on the more immediate situation. It would seem that the loss of your mother could certainly take priority over the horse situation for a few days, no?


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

Well can someone just delete this post then Im not asking for any help all my questions were answered
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greenbryerfarms (Apr 9, 2012)

Jewelsb said:


> Well can someone just delete this post then Im not asking for any help all my questions were answered
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd love for youto post pictures once the mare is home!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

OP, I'm sorry for both of the situations you are going through, especially the loss of your Mother & right before Mother's Day makes it even worse.

Why not let the owner of the horse keep her until after the foal is born &/or weaned? Winter is coming anyway so let her feed & care for her & the foal. If you can keep it friendly maybe you'll get something for your money without the heart break of a sick foal or having to give it back.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Sending prayers your way.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I think discussion is pretty much run its course, so I'm closing the thread.

Jewel, I'm sorry about your loss. Hope everything will work out of you!


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