# Whips, Crops, and what do you make of this?



## MagpieRocks (Jul 19, 2009)

A girl who keeps her horse where i keep mine and who rides with me uses a crop, right?. 
Nothing wrong with that but today we were jumping and as her horse is quite young & new to jumping(he's an ex-racer), He kept refusing and several times instead of encoraging him or nudging him, She smacked him very hard with her crop (he had lines where it had come down). I was taking pics and I got one of him looking terrified and her with the whip coming down.
I tried talking to her about it but she ignored me.:-(

Do you guys have any ideas on how to help me out?

And what are your opinions on whips/crops?


----------



## Whipple (Feb 2, 2009)

I have no issue with whips or crops if used correctly. Any aid can be abused though, and used to abuse. 

If I saw this happening, I would probably go off. Not that it would help much. I just dont have the right temperment. Im not sure what you could do if you already tried talking to her. How about getting a trainer to talk to her?


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Does the horse belong to her? If so, then you can try to talk to her about it and there is really not much else you can do except maybe take it to the barn manager (if there are rules set in place for abuse). BUT, they might not consider what the girl is doing abuse. There may just be nothing that you can do. :/


----------



## Whipple (Feb 2, 2009)

You said there were lines. Are these lines just in the hair, or are they deeper? Is she cutting him. If so then you could go to spca/animal wefare/whatever its called. And take videos if you can. This stuff should always be documented.


----------



## ChingazMyBoy (Apr 16, 2009)

Ahh! That makes me so angry, I ride with a crop and sometimes Chinga needs a tap with the crop. But with jumping I never use it and if I do use it I use it lightly!


----------



## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

I don't really have anything to add to the advice you've already been given on dealing with the scenario you witnessed. I hope that, whatever happens, that girl sees and understands how (at the very least) counterproductive her actions are, and that things get better.

I have ridden with a crop (not at all on every horse or every time), but I've never had to use any more than a tickle behind my leg to reinforce a "go forward" cue on a duller horse. Leaving lines is just uncalled for, and if you have to reach back and "lay it down," you need to re-evaluate what you're asking for and whether your horse is mentally and physically ready.

Tickle = Go on, you can do it

Whack = Get the heck over that fence or you're gonna get it, shoot, you're just gonna get it anyway!


----------



## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

I have had several jumping horses over the years, and except for my TB, I have used a crop on every one of them. I do not believe that it is bad if you need to tap their butt with a little more force sometimes, as I have had a couple horses that really liked to test the rider, and see if they could get away with running out or slamming on the brakes, but I have never left lines, either in the hair, or on the skin. I have noticed that often times, it is the sound alone that wakes up a horse, and gets him/her going nicely, not the actual contact of the crop and their body. I personally would first try to talk to her, suggest some things that you've done when your horse maybe refuses, or balks, and if that doesn't help, and she continues along these lines, get an adult in charge, such as a trainer, the barn manager, ect. and tell them what you've been seeing, and show them any pictures or videos you may have, so they can see that you aren't making things up. Hopefully she stops before she does any serious damage to the horse. Most horses I've ridden have tried to refuse a fence at least once or twice, but if they are just learning, reassuring them, and gently coaxing them, even lowering the fence to help gives them the confidence they need. If they are well trained, and normally don't refuse a fence, then that is when I believe that a harder tap might be necessary, only to put them back in line.


----------



## morganshow11 (Dec 19, 2008)

I have nothing against crops/whips if they are used properly. Apperantly the girl think that beating her horse will solve the problem;but it dosnt. Dont just inore it tho, talk to her about it,.


----------



## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^^ She said she already tried that and the girl wouldn't listen.

I'd contact the barn manager and have them take care of it.


----------



## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

i have no problem with crops or wips, but when someone sits there and smacks there horse over and over just cuz it wont do something, that makes me mad, especially when its a young horse that is still learning. I would try and talk to the barn manager, if she wont listen to you.


----------



## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

like many have said, I have no problems using a crop correctly. It makes me very angry though when this training aid is used inappropriately or excessively. In eventing, you cannot smack your horse with the crop more than three times in front of a jump, if you smack four times or more, it is considered excessive and abuse. I always follow this guideline. No matter if I am at a horse park or not.

If you feel this was abuse, please talk to someone. You said that the horse looked terrified... so I would consider taking this up with the barn manager.


----------



## cherylchan (Jul 17, 2009)

That is just plain cruel. I usually hold my crop when I ride, but rarely use it, except tapping him at the shoulder when he won't pay attention to my other aids. If she doesn't listen to you, maybe you should get someone in charge (like the barn manager) to talk to her.


----------



## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

Talk to the Barn Manager/Owner about your concerns. Maybe she'll listen to someone with some "authority".

As many have already stated, I have no problem with whips and crops when used to encourage, but what she was doing was mean.


----------



## LacyLove (Feb 12, 2009)

cherylchan, i just had to say, i love your avatar. its so funny :]


anyway, i agree with everyone else. it makes me want to cry that people are so stinking careless! and just adding, sometimes i would hit my boot with the crop and lacy would respond to the sound haha.


----------



## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^^ Oh, yes, I use sounds too. It's a great way to use a crop.


----------



## RideroftheWind (Jul 15, 2009)

In my opinion, I have nothing against crops and whips. They are aids meant to be used. All the same, they have to be used with responsibility and care. It's just plain cruel to hit a horse that hard!
You said you got pictures, right? Well, you can try talking to the barn manager, or, if the girl is only a young teen and not an adult, talk to her and if she doesnt listen talk to her parents. If they don't listen... there's nothing you can do, really. But I'll tell you, lot's of parents don't know that their kids abuse their horse, and they would be MAD if they found out...
Best of luck with that, anyways.


----------



## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> He kept refusing and several times instead of encoraging him or nudging him, She smacked him very hard with her crop (he had lines where it had come down). I was taking pics and I got one of him looking terrified and her with the whip coming down.


Then she is an undeducated rider - she obviously doesn't realize what horses truely see when they are approaching a fence, and that 99% of refusals is rider error.

So since every refusal was her fault, how about we use the crop on her to teach her a lesson? If I were there in person, I guarantee you I woud of done that. Done it before, I'd do it again.

She is uneducated and ignorant - I feel sorry for the horses she rides. 

I carry a crop with me when I do CC. Better to have it and not need it than eed it and not have it. When do I use it? When I make an error on Nelson and know he is going to not take the job because of something I did, I'll wave it so he can see it, and that gives him the motivation to get over the fence to cover my ***.

I use it on my leg when doing flat work, I'll smack my leg, not him.

I'm disgusted at this girl - she has no business riding a green OTTB.


----------



## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

The more I think about it, the more I think the problem is going to get worse with his refusals.

He will associate the jumps with being whipped. I would be terrified of jumping too, if I were her horse.

Maybe put it to her like that?


----------



## TroubledTB (Jun 26, 2009)

What kind of crop was it? Allot of hunter people use a crop with a really big fat end that only makes a loud smacking noise but doesn't really hurt. I used to sell tack, so I would demonstrate these properties often and actually use them on myself to see which ones do what. The fatter the end the louder and softer it really is, the riding bats with the triangular large end are also rather short which is maybe why she had to actually reach back and pop her horse. I am not defending her actions, I'm just thinking about times when I might have swung back with an english bat and looked a bit tough, but wasn't actually hurting the horse. The point was I was more intimidating than the obstacle, but not hurting my horse. If it was a dressage whip, or something thin and flexible, then it could really sting, and could have been overboard. I don't really know the solution, but I agree with eventerdrew that more than three times in front of a fence is excessive/abusive especially if the crop is harsher than a bat. I dealt with allot of reschooling of stoppers and it can be tough, so if she just was having one bad day, maybe give her a break? If this happens weekly or more then maybe talking to someone who can approach her unbiasedly and alone could help. Don't go with them though, then it will seem like your ganging up, and people are sensitive about being uneducated and abusive, you want to solve the problem, not make her resent or ignore you. If you can, grab the crop she used and test it on yourself, then if you think it's abusive, maybe show her how much it hurts too? You might be surprised at how much, or little pressure can cause pain from a particular crop


----------



## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

The barn manager cannot do anything about it either it is *her* horse. She can do with it what she pleases. And if the barn manager is a business person. Alsong as the girl pays the bill every month im sure they won't have a problem with it. I know if i was a barn manager i would be concerned for the horse yes, possibly mention something to the owner but aslong as they payed the bill i wouldn't interfear. Really, i wouldn't get involved. People don't take kindly to others telling them what to do with their horse.


----------



## Qtswede (Apr 16, 2009)

A crop or whip should be used as an extention of your hand - not a means to beat your horse. I have never hit a horse any harder than I have hit myself with a whip. 
Talking to her might help - but do so when she's not already cranky from going around with her horse but, don't be surprised if it doesn't do any good. 
It doesn't hurt to try, but if it's her horse, there isn't much you can do - other than snatching the crop from her and belting her with it. But, then you'd get in trouble lol


----------



## Whipple (Feb 2, 2009)

.Delete. said:


> The barn manager cannot do anything about it either it is *her* horse. She can do with it what she pleases. And if the barn manager is a business person. Alsong as the girl pays the bill every month im sure they won't have a problem with it. I know if i was a barn manager i would be concerned for the horse yes, possibly mention something to the owner but aslong as they payed the bill i wouldn't interfear. Really, i wouldn't get involved. People don't take kindly to others telling them what to do with their horse.



I agree to a point. If I were the BO, I would watch her myself. If it really was an abuse situation, I would ask her to leave if she continues treating her horse that way. I wouldnt put up with someone treating an animal like that on my property. I dont care who the animal belongs to. Same as with a person who beats their child. Its there child, but I wouldnt say nothing.


----------



## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

It doesn't sound like she is /beating/ her horse. She is taking punishment a little too far and shouldn't be training a horse like that. Beating a horse i feel is whacking on it rabidly. Smacking a horse hard on the butt with a crop is not beating a horse repeadly whacking a horse with a crop on its butt in a row now that is a different story


----------



## Whipple (Feb 2, 2009)

.Delete. said:


> It doesn't sound like she is /beating/ her horse. She is taking punishment a little too far and shouldn't be training a horse like that. Beating a horse i feel is whacking on it rabidly. Smacking a horse hard on the butt with a crop is not beating a horse repeadly whacking a horse with a crop on its butt in a row now that is a different story



What if the horse stops responding to the single whacks? She'll do more, and more.


----------



## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

You don't know that. If i felt that a person in my barn was treating a horse poorly i would ask them to leave certainly. But i don't think she is. She is punishing too harshly and needs to be easier on the horse, but i don't think she is beating it. I would mention something but its her horse, you cannot do anything about it but ask her to leave. Alot of people are like that to their horses, and we just have to deal with it, because its not going to change no matter how many people cry about it. Its /their/ horse. They can get it taken away from them if they are really treating it horribly. But in this case it just sounds like bad training.


----------



## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I use whips, crops, handy sticks, and blunt ended spurs; but I only use these if I think they are necessary for the horse I am working with at a given time; I try to work with as little 'aids' as possible. 

The situation at hand, however...I'm not sure what the OP can do, aside from try to talk to the rider about how to use the crop in order to help the horse; what the rider should be doing is teaching the horse to respond to the crop as a part of 'increasing pressure, starting with 'kissing' then a, squeeze, kick, then the crop as a last resort. But NOT as "THE" resort to getting the horse to do what she is asking.


----------



## Whipple (Feb 2, 2009)

We also do not know what "lines" mean. I would like to know this, as it would clear a few things up.


----------



## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I highly doubt she cut him. I have whacked on my horses but a few times and left lines in his fur, because he was being naughty. It would take quite alot to actually cut a horse with a whip. Expecially when your ontop of the horse learning forward trying to the the horse over a jump. She probably left marks in his fur. Which again, bad training. But if the horse was doing something very naughty just because there would be lines in the horses fur from the whip doesn't mean that it was beatin.


----------



## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^^ The OP already said the horse was NOT 'naughty'.


----------



## TroubledTB (Jun 26, 2009)

The horse was refusing, that is being "naughty", maybe the OP has never ridden a horse that stops. If a horse stops with me and I set them up right, the fence height was appropriate, the horse is sound, I will immediately give them a good wack or two for stopping at a fence. You need to make it clear to the horse that stopping before a fence is the one big no no that you won't tolerate. Expecting a horse to try is not asking to much. I also think the lines were the result of a sweaty coat, not cuts or welts. If the lines became raised and inflamed then they were being abusive. By insisting your horse is not allowed to stop, you eliminate the debate, that way if the jump looks different, moves, becomes a gate or box, has flowers, the one thing your horse has learned not to argue about whether or not they should jump it. Perhaps the OP has only ridden point and shoot horses and doesn't understand that it takes schooling them to make horses that way.


----------



## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

It seems to me like she may be using the crop a bit further than she should. I think you should talk to her about it again, & maybe explain to her how it can properly be used. & that there are other ways she can handle the situation, rather than hitting him with it. 

I use a crop sometimes. Not on Daytona though, 'cause she doesn't need one. But this one horse I sometimes ride, Ariel, needs it. I just use it as a training aid. It shouldn't be used to the extreme, or used in an abusive way. A crop can only do so much, she should maybe use her seat a bit more.


----------



## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Lines from a whip can also appear if the horse is really dirty; my Appy who is pretty much white, will get 'lines' even from a light tap, because of the dirt under his coat that no amount of brushing removes! After a ride, and I've hosed him down, he wouldn't get them, but before...depending on how much he's been taking 'dust baths', he may get a line from the crop or even if I have to fling the rope at his haunch to get him moving out on the longe.


----------



## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Whacking a horse hard constantly with a whip is self defeating. Eventually the horse will turn not only on the offending rider but worse perhaps on all riders. Sad. The woman has to see she is adopting the wrong policy. She is using the whip out of anger not as a communication aid. 
It is an undeniable fact that some folks don't have the right attitude to own a horse,a scenario which you will meet with time and time again.

Try videoing the rider in action and then show it to her. Maybe if she sees herself as others see her she will change her methods.


----------



## lauraa94x (Mar 24, 2009)

I have no problem with whips/crops or spurs being used - as long as they are used properly. They are simply an aid for the rider, not something to abuse the horse with. I ride a new cob thats pretty much lazy and dead to the leg, I ride him with a schooling whip, and by giving him a tap on the bum with it, he goes perfect. I think they are fine, as long as they do not cause damage.


----------



## arabian (Sep 11, 2009)

*Hi, i would actually say the same as wipple said ,i would defo have to walk off because if i see that i wouldnt be responsible for my actions, i have nothing against using crops, i dont use one myself,but a animal should never be hit it will only make the horse more nervous and it is just not right. I would confront her about it if she didnt listen and did it again i would go to rspca because it is cruelty to animals especially if the horse is being cut !!*

*kind rgrds*

debbie


----------



## Jessie567 (Aug 18, 2009)

Pherhaps she hasn't actually noticed, its easy for some people to lose their temper with a horse, not an excuse for her but point out the whip marks to her. about a month ago my mare refused a jump she shouldn't of so i gave her a whip, i RARELY use the whip, although i ride with it always just in case i really need it. However it did leave a whip mark on the hair (didn't cut into her or i think i would never use a crop/whip again) i hadn't realised i had been that harsh and in fact the two people on the ground told me i hadn't actually hit her that hard however a whip mark was left, i was really upset when i saw what i had done, ever since then i have been VERY careful with my crop. 

I don't now the girl or how she feels about her horse but if she is the type like many horsy people that love their horses to death perhaps she got in a temper and honestly didn't realise how hard she hit the horse. So please before any radical action is taken like calling the rspca just show her the whip marks and point out how unfair she is being. I am not excusing her but i would be so upset if people thought i was being cruel to my horse from the one off time my horse got a whip mark  (it was a complete accident btw, please dont judge from this one off thing, i do not abuse the whip and do not lose my temper)


----------



## arabian (Sep 11, 2009)

Hi ye that is a fair enough comment. i love my horses and when i ride them they do play up and i do lose my temper. giving the horse a tap on the backside is fine but a hard crack with a whip is not it will only make the horse frightened the next time u go over a jump. i had a man come over from america his name is john moore he done some ground work with my horse and he tought me that disipling is all in voice commands your horse shouldnt see you as a bully. but every one makes mistakes and no people shouldnt be judged on here and like i said the rspa should only be called if the horse is being cut. 

kind rgrds
debbie


----------



## frecklesgirl4ever (Sep 15, 2009)

I do not think she actually made cuts in her horse, but that still doesn't make her behavior acceptable, especially since her horse is off the track. I personally only carry a crop with me if i am riding a lazy horse and I rarely actually ever use it. Most of the time I just either swish it around in the air or I smack it againt my leg to make the sound. If that doesn't work then I give my horse a whack, but not excesivly and not harder than I hit myself. I think that if you see her doing this to her horse again then you should talk to her, but besides that, there's not much else you can do. She isn't your horse and she isn't the manager of the stable's horse either. Best of luck!


----------

