# Can I ride Western in English tack?



## seg2k17 (Jan 29, 2017)

I was looking to get my first saddle soon but I'm having trouble deciding on which one to get. I've mostly ridden in Western saddles (using direct rein, oddly enough) but there have been a couple times that I've ridden English when I was young. I feel a lot more secure in a Western saddle than I do in an English saddle (there's more to keep me on, lol) but Western saddles are a lot more expensive than English and I don't like the look as much.

I was wondering if it was possible to ride in a Western position (grip with legs, stretch legs out.. as well as loosen up the reins) in an English saddle? The reason why I'm not going with a Western saddle right away is that I've always wanted to try out English tack, as you can prolly tell. The pros of Western, though, are the comfort, security, and versatility it offers. I'm 250lb-ish as well, so maybe Western would support me better than English?

Would I look dumb riding in a Western seat position in an English saddle, or is it not as noticeable as if it were the opposite? I wouldn't be competing, just riding around my house and trail riding. By the time I purchase my saddle, I would be living in Texas (currently living in Cali), if that changes anything.

Also, I'm fairly new at riding (not clueless but not an expert either) so please let me know if I'm not aware of something or whatever.

Thanks in advance,
Sara


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Your position, as well as how loose you keep your reins, as opposed to having contact, has more impact on your horse than on you or how you look. Horses can go Western or English, but if you ride an English trained horse with very loose reins, you may find it wants to take off on you! If you ride a Western-trained horse with full contact, it may resist that. Same goes for your leg aids. 

My suggestion, as someone who has ridden in both styles and taken lessons in both, is to determine what style of riding the horse is used to first. Then, if you feel better in a Western saddle, look for a used one. There are lots out there that aren't very expensive. Another alternative is a synthetic Western saddle, because they are much cheaper.

I also happen to love my Australian saddle for trail riding. I ride English when I'm doing arena work, but I love how my Aussie saddle (mine does not have a horn, but you can buy them with a horn if you like that) holds me in place on up and downhill trails. I view it as sort of in-between English and Western. Mine is a synthetic Australian saddle and I got it used for 400$. 

I think you can find used Western saddles just as cheap as English saddles. But make sure you get the correct seat size for yourself, and gullet size for the horse you will be riding!

There is so much more to buying a saddle than how you will look in it!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I ride both English and western, although mainly western, riding in my English saddle mostly when I enter shows and go "all around'. on a senior horse
I don't get what you mean, because correct equitation (on the flat ) is the same in either saddle and my stirrup lengths are also the same
While it is true, in western show classes, you jog , thus sit, one can also post in a western saddle, long trotting, as I often do on trail rides
It si also a fact that a lot of dressage is ridden, while sitting the trot
I certainly don't i grip with legs, riding western, nor stretch legs out so they are off the hrose, as seen in some gaited riding, and which I have also noted at times, with Arabians shown western. It is natural for me to ride with heels down, either way, if that is what you mean by stretching legs out
Sure, you can ride any horse on a loose rein, just when showing English, light contact is standard, and if not showing, does not matter
Why not then ride in a dressage saddle? That would be my choice if I wanted to ride English with a long leg


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

True, far as saddle cost, as my Stubbin, even bought used, cost me as much as the western trail riding Billy Cook that I bought for Carmen.
Touring Spruce Meadow trade fair booths, where English tack orientated vendors have saddles on display, many of those English Saddles cost a lot of money
Conversly, Green Hawk has a few western saddles, besides their English saddles, and those western saddles are priced pretty low.
In the end, whether you buy an English saddle or a western saddle, price will be more related to quality, versus discipline, and why it is smart, JMO, to buy a well made saddle second hand, versus a cheap new saddle


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## seabiscuit91 (Mar 30, 2017)

I ride in all english tack, as it's what I'm used to and prefer to sit in, but my 'style' of riding probably leans a little more toward western I guess.
I ride loose rein, using leg cues instead to turn etc. As that is what the horse prefers (and was trained) and how I prefer to ride as well. 
Otherwise my partner uses stock saddles, which I believe @Acadianartist is referring to as well (I didn't realize they were called Australian saddles over there, how cool ) But that style saddle, is probably the perfect mix of both as well.

It's really all about preference if you're not showing, find what makes you and the horse comfortable and run with that!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Well, for clarity, the saddle in the front is pretty well identical to mine. As I said, I did not want the horn, because I don't need it, and it's in the way for me. I found this to be a wonderful compromise between the Western and English styles, though it's not actually evolved that way. And honestly, people who see them don't know what the heck they are, so they can't tell you if you're sitting in them wrong or not! They're just not practical for a lot of arena work that involves things like posting over poles. So I use my Wintec AP English for that. Someday I might invest in a high end saddle, but that day is not here yet.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

You can ride anyway you want in any kind of tack, English, western, bareback. If you want to try out an English saddle and ride loosey, goosey, do it.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

To me it is obvious when a person is riding western in an English saddle but who cares? I make a note of it and I basically think "Oh he's riding western" - end of. Unless you are competing, do whatever is most comfortable for you and your horse.

(Rant: Around here there is an obvious difference in style between city folk and country folk. City folk have all had lessons in English while country folk have their own particular style, passed down the generations. I get really miffed when city folk look down on country folk for their equitation. Is the horse going? Yes. Is the rider secure on his mount? Yes. Stop flapping your snobbish mouths. I'm city folk, in case anyone is wondering. Sorry, had to get it out.)


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> Well, for clarity, the saddle in the front is pretty well identical to mine. As I said, I did not want the horn, because I don't need it, and it's in the way for me. I found this to be a wonderful compromise between the Western and English styles, though it's not actually evolved that way. And honestly, people who see them don't know what the heck they are, so they can't tell you if you're sitting in them wrong or not! They're just not practical for a lot of arena work that involves things like posting over poles. So I use my Wintec AP English for that. Someday I might invest in a high end saddle, but that day is not here yet.


So, you ride in an Australian stock saddle. Funny thing, I just got one given to me by my youngest son. He found it at a garage sale


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## Light (Mar 4, 2012)

I didn't have time to read all the replies. 

I have a dressage saddle that is far more secure than any western saddle I have ridded in. Could I rope a calf off of it? Probably not. Could I jump in it? Tried it and not all that well. But I am very secure in it and it is comfortable. When my horse decided that the only style of dressage she would do was "Bobble Headed Llama Dressage", I started riding trail etc. And I ride on a loose rein. I neck rein when convenient and mostly ride with my seat and weight. I ride trail most of the time. I also do obstacles when the ranch leaves them up after a WOW event. I can open and close gates, pony horses and do some real hard core slide on your but trails, all in my dressage saddle. 

I recently tried Cowboy Dressage, but once again my horse will only do "Bobble Headed Llama Cowboy Spinning Dressage", so sticking to the trails for the most part now. 

The reason I got a Dressage saddle is because it was the only saddle I could find that would be comfortable for my horse. That is always the most important thing. The horse's comfort. If they are unhappy, you will be too. 

I will often, when not working, ride in cowboy boots, jeans and t shirt in my dressage saddle. I have put split reins on my micklem bridle and went as far as using my western breast collar with my dressage saddle. 

Dressage and Western riding are very similar up to a point. Dressage doesn't have a jog, but most else is very much the same. 

You have to think about what the horse has been trained in also. There are plenty of English trained horses running around in western tack and vice versa. Do what is in your horse's best interest first. Make sure what ever saddle you use fits.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> So, you ride in an Australian stock saddle. Funny thing, I just got one given to me by my youngest son. He found it at a garage sale


Only on trails Smilie. I grew up riding Western, but didn't like the weight or the horn. All my arena work (pole work, trotting circles, my recent attempts to canter) is done on an English saddle as stated.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Horsef said:


> (Rant: Around here there is an obvious difference in style between city folk and country folk. City folk have all had lessons in English while country folk have their own particular style,


I think that everybody can benefit from learning what generations of horsemen and women have discovered and distilled into a "style" or "best practices". From there, your own personal style will invariably develop, just as it would with driving a car or painting oil paintings. 

Why limit yourself to the "family style", no matter how old it is, when you can learn a theory that has been assembled from the work of people who have thought about biomechanics, physics, human and equine physiology, etc.? True, Uncle Tom and Grandma Josephine may have hit upon the perfect recipe, but they may also have solidified some unproductive habits in their riding - because they could get by with it, and the horse didn't complain.

In any case, on OP's subject of "tack and style", I personally use a close-contact saddle because I like how it allows me to "plug into the horse". Stability is provided by my hip adductor muscles. Still, when the horse is relaxed and we are at the walk in easy terrain, she can do with her head whatever she wants, as the reins will be slack. "Rein contact" to us means: "Stay focused now!" 

Also, while cantering on twists and turns, I push with my legs, and the hands stay in "a small box" over the withers. It is no use if the head looks left and the shoulders go straight.

My thighs are solid on the knee pads of the saddle, but my calves better stay relaxed, or I'll have a very fast horse very quickly. My stirrups are shorter than for dressage, but longer than for jumping. I need to have long legs for stability, but bent knees for two-point and posting. 

I once went on a western-tack trail ride, and I didn't feel like I was on the horse. I felt like I was on a chair on a horse.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

IMO the main issue with "riding western" in "english tack" is you're going to be FIGHTING with the saddle about your leg position. Western saddles and english saddles tend to put your legs in slightly different positions...I just do with my reins whats comfortable for what I'm doing. Lots of english riders will ride without contact when not actually doing something that more so requires it. Also I believe its beneficial for any horse to know how to neck rein or use leg cues. You never know when you may be in a situation/obstacle that you can't use your reins as much.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

You are not competing, so you can pretty much ride however you like. I also would look into synthetic saddles because they're cheaper. My friend has a Western synthetic Abetta brand saddle and I rode in it a few times, it's very comfortable. 

Also think about how the horse has been trained too and what cues it is used to/responds to best. You don't want the horse to get confused. LOL.
Once in awhile, I ride Redz in an _*endurance*_ saddle when I am not working/in a lesson with him. They're comfortable for trail riding/to relax in. 

I like them because they are kinda a mixture of Western & English. Very comfortable. But I am 99% English with him. & since he responds very well to leg pressure, I do not have to solely rely on my reins. But when we are working, yes, I apply more contact of course. It all depends on what you are doing. 

Call me weird, but posting in a Western saddle just doesn't feel right for me because I'm pretty much always in an English saddle so I'm not used to that. I feel like it's easier to post when I'm in an English saddle. I know people obviously post when they ride Western too (duh!), but it's just a bit different to me. I think I'm just not used to that horn being there. The seat feels totally different...yeah, I'm sticking to my English saddle. :lol:

Do what you feel comfortable with. I'd definitely check out some used saddles or synthetic saddles.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

PoptartShop said:


> You are not competing, so you can pretty much ride however you like. I also would look into synthetic saddles because they're cheaper. My friend has a Western synthetic Abetta brand saddle and I rode in it a few times, it's very comfortable.


Yes, I also own an Abetta Western synthetic saddle. I picked it up pretty cheap. It's fine, as far as comfort goes, but I do prefer my Aussie if I'm looking for something that will "hold me" more. That said, the Abetta Western saddle is kept for beginner riders who want a "pony ride" and like having a horn to hold onto! Not suggesting that's the only use for them of course, just saying we keep it around specifically because it feels more secure for those riders. 

It's all what you're used to. I don't like the wide leg panels (fenders) on Western saddles, as I find twisting them hurts my knee over time. But I have old knees  The Aussie (or stock saddle if that's what you want to call it) has the Western seat, but the slimmer English stirrups and stirrup "leathers" that don't hurt my knees. Just something else to consider.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Horsef said:


> To me it is obvious when a person is riding western in an English saddle but who cares? I make a note of it and I basically think "Oh he's riding western" - end of. Unless you are competing, do whatever is most comfortable for you and your horse.
> 
> (Rant: Around here there is an obvious difference in style between city folk and country folk. City folk have all had lessons in English while country folk have their own particular style, passed down the generations. I get really miffed when city folk look down on country folk for their equitation. Is the horse going? Yes. Is the rider secure on his mount? Yes. Stop flapping your snobbish mouths. I'm city folk, in case anyone is wondering. Sorry, had to get it out.)


THIS. :iagree:

To put it in very bad, SE Oklahoma/N. Texas Grammar: We ain't got no fancy ridin' schools 'round here. Ain't no indoor arenas... only arenas you gonna find are for ropin' n'barrel racin', or buckin' one out... but that's usually done in a sketchy, open air, round pen.

Us 'country' folk learn from family, from being around other riders, friends, etc. And each 'clan' if you will does have differences in how they ride, how they handle their horses.

Back on topic, having never ever ever sat in an English saddle, or ridden a horse that had a clue about 'English', I'd never dream of trying it without lessons or knowing my horse was trained to ride either way. I'd say the reverse is true as well. If you've primarily ridden English, I'd make sure I had some basic lessons in Western riding, since the differences in the two styles go much deeper than just the saddle and the reining. 

I think you'd be asking to get hurt if you tried riding western in an English set up. It goes beyond 'looking dumb'. English saddles put your legs and behind in entirely different positions than a Western saddle does. I would assume possibly your hands and ergo the reins as well since the different posture would translate completely up your spine. IDK though.

Then again, maybe I'm not understanding the question... 

The Aussie saddles btw... seem like a good mix of the two, and I myself am looking into getting one, for a myriad of reasons. You might consider one of those as I believe others have mentioned.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> ...Why limit yourself to the "family style", no matter how old it is, when you can learn a theory that has been assembled from the work of people who have thought about biomechanics, physics, human and equine physiology, etc.? ...
> 
> I once went on a western-tack trail ride, and I didn't feel like I was on the horse. I felt like I was on a chair on a horse.


Well, for one thing - the experts don't now the answers either. I've had instructors tell me my toes MUST point straight ahead. The Cavalry said they should be 20-45 degrees out. Who is right?

I've had instructors and experts in books say a straight vertical line from shoulder to hip to heel is critical. While others ignore it.

Lots of folks talk about a horse's back rounding up like an arch - which isn't physically possible. 

Lots of how one SHOULD ride depends on where one rides, with what tack and with what goal.

I ride in a 30 lb roping saddle. I've also ridden in a jump saddle and spent many hours in my Australian saddle. FWIW, I have no trouble feeling what my horse is feeling when using any of them. I'd take an Australian-style saddle for security, but my tack choices are always a bit mixed up. Happily, my horse doesn't mind:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

First off, once again, riding on the flat, correct equitation is not different between English and western, plus there is aheck of alot of difference in a modern close contact western performance saddle and those old bulky western saddles with all the excess leather under your legs.
Horses, trained correctly, western, are also not 'confused, when you ride them English
People seem to get the idea, that because the eventual goal is to have a well trained western horse ride one handed on a loose rein, then that horse was never ridden with any contact, with two hands, or direct reined. Completely false as western horses are started in a snaffle or bosal, ridden with two hands, direct reined, just like English, with the only difference being, they are worked toward the eventual goal of being able to keep frame, collection, perform all maneuvers off of seat and legs and that indirect rein on their neck
BSMS, don't get hung up on your toes, but rather heels should be down, with legs in a comfortable position, and where you can easily use leg aids as needed
I always had horses going well western, before I added HUS, to those I kept long enough to make into all around horses. Those horses had no problem being ridden English, as my aids were the same, and also my leg aids. Legs are not in different positions, unless you are riding in the old arm chair seat position, which is often seen in self taught recreational riders
Bottom line, use the saddle that works for you and the horse, and if just pleasure riding, you need not worry about rein contact, riding with two hands on acurb, using a snaffle or any other discipline specific equipment or style of riding.
Also, be aware of correct western riding, where you certainly don't grip with your legs, which are neutral on the horse, except when you wish to apply a leg aid
You also don't stick your legs off the horse, unless perhaps riding gaited


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I have a hard time picturing a 30 pound roping saddle, that could stand up to holding a cow!
I have never been told that my toes should be parallel to the horse. Heels should be down, and far as body aleignment, if you can stand up in your stirrups, without holding on to the mane of the hrose, or your saddle, then your feet and legs are under you, where they should be.
We have been into this subject before, concerning what is correct equitation position, on the flat, without any introduction of speed, riding an equitation pattern, and how that position has to change for various events, so the rider can stay with the horse, or make that position easier for the horse to perform that event
If riding a cutting horse, of course you are going to have your feet foreward, lean back, as taht horse ducks down in front, and moves faster then you can cue, latterally, reading that cow.
Jumping, there is the foreward seat, and shortened stirrups
I don't think anyone in his right mind would expect a person to keep an equitation position , adapted for riding a precise pattern, in various events. That basic position is a basic foundation , giving the rider the tools to build on, versus starting out by thinking an arm chair position, toes up or jammed home in the stirrups is okay


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Horses, trained correctly, western, are also not 'confused, when you ride them English
> People seem to get the idea, that because the eventual goal is to have a well trained western horse ride one handed on a loose rein, then that horse was never ridden with any contact, with two hands, or direct reined. Completely false as western horses are started in a snaffle or bosal, ridden with two hands, direct reined, just like English, with the only difference being, they are worked toward the eventual goal of being able to keep frame, collection, perform all maneuvers off of seat and legs and that indirect rein on their neck


Not to disagree with you Smilie (I would NEVER do that :wink: ) but Kodak was most definitely unhappy when I first started riding her with full contact. And no, I don't pull hard on the reins, ever. In fact, my English coach keeps telling me I need more contact. I do have very light hands, but Kodak would get frustrated and confused, throw her head in the air and run sideways. Now you did say "Horses, trained correctly, western" so maybe that's where things fell apart for her. We should not assume, however, that the horse(s) the OP will be riding are all "trained correctly western". 

My point is, a horse that has always been ridden on a loose rein may wonder why the heck you feel the need to have contact with its mouth all the time. It's possible Kodak thought it was a cue for something, like gather up your legs now, and get ready to explode! Regardless, we were able to meet halfway in time, but it did take a lot of time. I still ride with full contact (loose contact on a trail), but am mindful of her sensitivity. She no longer throws her head around and goes nicely in whatever direction I ask her to go in. The OP may have a similar experience.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

mmshiro said:


> Why limit yourself to the "family style", no matter how old it is, when you can learn a theory that has been assembled from the work of people who have thought about biomechanics, physics, human and equine physiology, etc.? True, Uncle Tom and Grandma Josephine may have hit upon the perfect recipe, but they may also have solidified some unproductive habits in their riding - because they could get by with it, and the horse didn't complain.


I think you have pictured a rich country family sticking to their traditions 

My "country folk" earn 200 to 300Eur per month. No way can they afford 20Eur lessons. Quite a few of them still use WWI saddles.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, I admit that HUS does not use the amount of contact , esp constant, as open English, but it is also a fact, stated by many great western trainers, that a horse , even ridden on a loose rein has to accept contact, when it is used, and 'wait for that release, not demand it
It is the constant , relatively more , as used in open English, with no reward (release) when going correctly that a finished western horse does not understand
You do work towards the 'mutual understanding, when a horse knows where that 'safe zone is, where if he stays there on his own, you in turn will let him have that self carriage without bit contact
However, watxch any western trainer, training, not showing, and if they need to, they will use as much contact as is needed, while driving with legs, to get the horse to soften, get off his front end and off the bit-then the correct response is rewarded.
Thus, a western horse that won't accept light contact, that instead pulls against the bit, demands release, versus waiting for it, is not truly soft or accepting of that bit
A horse can't always have been ridden on aloose rein, as it would then be impossible, JMO, to teach collection, have that horse learn to travel in frame.In the beginning, regardless of discipline, you have to balance rein contact with the driving of legs, and sometimes that takes quite a bit of hold (hold not jerk or pull ) WHILE driving with legs, to get the horse to give softly in the poll and face, while driving up from behind
The point being, a western horse learns to move collected, eventually, without that bit barrier support. That does not mean, if you need to, you can't go back to using bit support, never forgetting to then ride with more legs then reins, when a horse gets heavy, leans on the bit, ect
Just from what you posted, I am led to believe your horse was ridden western, but never truly learned collection of a loos rein, or otherwise. Many people start ahorse, run patterns, ride trails, but while that western horse can be ridden on aloose rein, he never had the correct period using contact, so he learned to carry himself correctly, work off his back end
My husband trail rides his horse, western, one handed, on loose rein, but that horse knows nothing really about giving to a bit as I want a horse to
. When he takes contact, the reaction of his horse is to elevate head, versus giving softly in the poll and face, waiting for that release
Just because a horse was ridden western, does not mean he was ever trained correctly, far as is needed in a performance horse, not one that runs barrels or just rides down the trail
If you watch some western training videos, I don't care if reining, western pl, working cowhorse, you will see that there is contact used, s, buT never without strong legs, to fix some maneuvers, and any western performance horse understands and accepts contact, however, they learn, through progressive training, that when they are moving correctly, staying soft in the poll and face, at the speed asked for, they will be rewarded with complete rein release
Watch the youtube video of Larry Trocha, teaching the stop. Would be impossible without that bit barrier
Many western riders ride with light contact, and not that total 'throw away of reins, as seen in upper end events
You are quite right that they don't ride with CONSTANT STRONG contact, esp when that horse has reached the level where he has learned self carriage, and then not rewarded when moving correctly be release, or at least a great deal of lightening of that contact.
Even when I rode open English, and actually won a large class, against more typical English horses, like TBs, Arabians and morgans, and under a judge from a dressage background, I rode with what would be considered not enough contact by many open English people
Point being, when the movement is correct, long as the reins aren't flopping, have a direct line to your hands, degree of contact should be a non issue, and unless you wish to show open English, I guess I would pick another instructor, if you feel like me, and never wish to ride a horse with that degree of constant contact


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

here is perhaps a training video, by Dana hokana , who shows western pl very successfully, thus on aloose rein, showing how that is achieved by first using contract and driving with legs






another example, on ;acceptance


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Al Dunning, reining, again, contact used in warm up






Thus, if awestern horse resists contact, throws head, he was never trained correctly, JMO

In fact, riding awestern horse on reasonable contact is the easy part, the hard part is riding him with just not no contact , but with no contact while he sTAYS CORRECT, with no bit contact, at all speeds and all maneuvers, thus having reached the point where one of the aids (bit contact) can be removed, and then just using the other aids (indirect rein against neck, seat and legs
That does not mean he forgets that rein contact, resists it, by throwing head,m when it is used


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...A horse can't always have been ridden on aloose rein, as it would then be impossible, JMO, to teach collection, have that horse learn to travel in frame....


Sounds horrible...horses who don't learn to travel in a frame! 

Describes just about every trail horse I've met in Arizona. But then, that video disgusts me. I wouldn't let him ride my horses. And yes, I recognize the name. Just don't recognize THAT as proper western riding.

If that is how modern western riding looks, I'll take a pass. Rather ride like an ignorant yahoo than learn me some rollkur...


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

bsms said:


> Well, for one thing - the experts don't now the answers either. I've had instructors tell me my toes MUST point straight ahead. The Cavalry said they should be 20-45 degrees out. Who is right?


I think I addressed that:

_"I think that everybody *can benefit from* learning what generations of horsemen and women have discovered and distilled into a "style" or "best practices". *From there, your own personal style will invariably develop*, just as it would with driving a car or painting oil paintings."_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I wonder when western riding became so much about pulling on the face of the horse?

here is another video by the same trainer, Smilie, who herself says she doesn't do the ol' snap-snap on their mouths, . . . and yet, look at this!

Everything in my being as a horseperson who has spent 18 years learning, still an utter amateur though, rebels against this kind of handling:


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Interesting videos - and reactions! I think Smilie was posting them to show that a well-trained Western horse should accept contact. Cleary, Kodak is not a well-trained Western horse then, because she resisted it. She's good with it now, but it took time and a lot of give and take on both our parts.

But this is not my idea of contact. These horses have their heads way down, their neck in an exaggerated arc, and well, to my uneducated eye, don't look like they're very happy about it. But sure, they accept it. It isn't the kind of riding I'd enjoy though. When I say contact, I don't mean this. I mean being able to feel the bit in my hands. But ideally, Kodak's head is in a natural position, which for her, is probably a higher head carriage than for the average Western QH. Her head isn't halfway to the ground, but she's not doing her best imitation of a giraffe either.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

That is not the way they are shown, or ridden,anymore then a horse ridden in a counter flex arch circle help teach shoulder control,is ridden that way in any pattern, nor are horse a shown ridden in a counter canter-they are training methods to help teach lightness.
I know this is hard to understand, if you just trail ride, but there are also many human athletic training exercises which have nothing to do with final way of performing, beyond some extra suppliness
Perhaps, seeing what is more the goal, might help those who have no idea of training a reining or cowhorse, might make them relaiz that you certainly don't ride that horse in any final way that hinders performance quite the opposite, you create a horse that has way more responsiveness on him then the average recretaional rider has any idea of. Those hroses can be ridden on a total loos rein,going in a natural frame, riding out checking cattle, or whatever
Point is, they can ride just like any recreational horse-that is kindergarden, but can perform when asked, at avery high level.
That is not true of the average horse going down the road!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

i am not defending everything Dana or any other western trainer uses, but merely pointing out that western horses understand contact.One does not get on a colt, and then throw the reins away, and expect them to learn good transitions, lead departures or. anything else.
BSMS,you said once that you don't care about good lope transitions, correct leads, but many do,so perhaps until you try some more advanced riding, how in the heck can you critique?Don;t post some military stuff, as I am taking of a western horse, performing high level activities one handed,and on aloose rein. Takes some different training, then if you always use two hands and constant rein support for things like flying changes, stop to lope transitions, spins, ect
In fact, lope a circle or two, one handed, on a loose rein and change leads
Look at reining in the past. There is much more finesse now, and hard stops, with front legs jammed into the ground, head up, neck stiff, mouth open, don't cut it anymore
All western horses in upper level events are now shown on a loose rein, which was not true in the past You are not going to show NRHA,so to have a horse that just rides out okay, is all you need, and that is fine. Just don;t be too quick to judge things you don't understand
You riding down the trail is completely irrelevant, far as training or riding
where a horse has to not only be able to move in a natural frame, but also to be able to move in a collected frame, when asked to do so
How well do you think your horse would stay on a cow, just moving like he would riding down a trial, hind end not engaged, on his front end?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

perhaps, seeing the end product desired, what judges look for, might explain some of that warm up by Al Dunning, or maybe not.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

yes. I only trail ride. but, in everything I have learned, such snapping on the reins, . . such pulling the horse behind the vertical, such riding is not helpful to developing a balanced, responsive and happy horse. I cannot help finding myself grinding my teeth when I watch that sort of 'training'. I don't see it as purposeful or helpful to developing the horse. you can see the the horse is unhappy about it, and ends up being all tied up and shut down. the horse is not brought TO the bit, but over it, dumping him on his forehand.. if that is what it takes to compete, it's a good thing I don't .


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Look, I said that I am not defending everything that Dana is doing, but to suggest the end product, as seen in the video above of Al Dunning, shows ahorse on his forehand, would make it impossible to work that cow
I also did not post that snapping video, but one just showing that indeed western horses learn contact in their training process, pure and simple
I guess I could google forever and try to find what I mean by using contact correctly, to teach eventual ability to be ridden on aloose rein, one handed, in all kinds of athletic movement, but I know someone is going to focus on some negative aspects that some trainers use, versus my intended message-that a western horse, trained so he eventually can be ridden one handed on a loose rein, while he carries himself in frame, without bit support, DOES IN the beginning, get ridden, using contact
Perhaps my message got lost in those videos, as I was not pushing any training methods, merely showing that contact is used as part of the progressive training towards no contact
Now, if anyone can tell me, how you would ride a western horse from day one, without any bit contact, and have him learn correct transitions, cadenced gaits, , etc, ect, I;m all ears


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

oKay,here is your favorite trainer, Tiny, and note how he gets the horse behind the vertical also during that training for collection and uses contact


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

thank you for posting that. so considerate of you.

yes, I do like Warwick Schiller, and that you cannot see the difference between his use of the rein, and that other lady's, is very surprising to me.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

seg2k17 said:


> ...I was wondering if it was possible to ride in a Western position (grip with legs, stretch legs out.. as well as loosen up the reins) in an English saddle?...
> 
> Would I look dumb riding in a Western seat position in an English saddle, or is it not as noticeable as if it were the opposite? I wouldn't be competing, just riding around my house and trail riding...


It is entirely possible to ride using an English saddle and a western approach to reins, at least at the "_just riding around my house and trail riding_" stage. English jump saddle and sidepull halter or western curb bit will work fine. 

Not sure what grip with legs suggests, but stretching legs out could just mean using a long leg. Which is often done in English riding. When I used a English jump saddle, I used a long leg and just got sweat on my jeans. But I'll caution the OP: SOME English saddles use a finer, softer leather as an outer covering, and that may not mix with jeans. My Bated Caprilli CC saddle had very durable leather, so it wasn't an issue.

This was a pretty typical picture of me riding Mia in my DownUnder Master Campdraft saddle:











To my rump, it FELT like my Bates Caprilli AP saddle, which was wider and distributed weight over a larger area of the horse's back than my CC saddle did. A little slack and direct reining with fingers worked fine. Don't use it often any more, but still own and like the saddle. 

But I'll add a warning, because Australian saddles seem to be a love/hate type of saddle. My wife and daughter LOATHE this saddle, while I rode many happy miles in it. I tried a "dressage position" in it, a "jump position" in it, and an "old west cowboy" position in it:










As long as I moved with my horse, my fussy Arabian mare didn't mind which 'position' I used. Most of our trail rides looked like this, which I don't think is particularly 'western' or 'English':










Around where I live, I've had more raised eyebrows at my wearing a helmet than I had about using an Australian-style saddle. I sometimes used the Aussie-style saddle when taking western group lessons...and the instructor liked the saddle. But my daughter never has:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...BSMS,you said once that you don't care about good lope transitions, correct leads, but many do,so perhaps until you try some more advanced riding, how in the heck can you critique?Don;t post some military stuff, as I am taking of a western horse, performing high level activities one handed,and on aloose rein...
> 
> ...How well do you think your horse would stay on a cow, just moving like he would riding down a trial, hind end not engaged, on his front end?









​ 
Engaged hind end? In Western Pleasure?

But I'll feel free to reject any riding which involves not allowing the horse to look where he is going. And I'll feel free to reject any riding that involves intimidating the horse with a bit, or teaching a horse to AVOID contact. One of Bandit's first lessons on coming to me was learning that taking the slack out of the reins did NOT mean 'emergency stop'. He needed to learn to accept contact, not avoid it.

I suspect Bandit HAS worked cattle before, as have both Cowboy and Trooper. I know for certainty he has herded sheep, as has Trooper. He shifts weight to his rear just fine when it makes sense to do so, to include walk to canter transitions. He also shifts weight to the rear just fine climbing up a hill or out of a wash - because it makes sense to do so. In fact, studies have shown all horses trotting up a 10 degree hill use a 50:50 balance. It is just what a horse does.

Riding is not "advanced" just because it takes extra training to get there, or because it is praised in shows. Nor is it "western" if it rejects all the fundamentals of how a horse needs to move in the open. "*How to Have a Great Headset on Your Horse without Gimmicks*" has nothing to do with the way I see horses being ridden in the west. The ranch horses I've met, and the ex-ranch horses I own, know NOTHING about having "*a Great Headset*". They do know how to look where they are going, size up what they will need to do, and do it. 

And no one who trains a horse to ride 'nose-to-toes' is welcome on my horses. YMMV.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

@Smilie I understand that you are saying that the effortless, no contact way of riding that shows the best of Western style riding, starts out with teaching the horse via considerable contact.
my 'beef' is that to say that what you posted is "contact" is incorrect. that may be how some folks train contact, but not all, not even all Western riders train that way. it is that form of rein use that I find objectionable, not that contact IS used.

I also understand and agree with what you said about the horse 'demanding' a release, verses waiting for when YOU give it. we all know that when the release is given is how anything is taught to a horse. that is why releasing the rein when the hrose has tucked down and back, as in the Dana horse, teaches the hrose to evade the bit by dumping over it's poll onto its forehand. and, snapping the reins repeatedly is just abuse. there IS NO release, just a mindless on and off that the horse will not associate with any fine tuned communication, but will rather tuck under and just endure the 'noise'.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> thank you for posting that. so considerate of you.
> 
> yes, I do like Warwick Schiller, and that you cannot see the difference between his use of the rein, and that other lady's, is very surprising to me.


 Again, Tiny, I just posted a video to show western horses are trained with contact, so no confused when contact is used
I just happened to pick two training videos at random.
You are the one that then googled and found that video, with Dana, using technique that I also do not agree with, same as I don't agree on using backing to teach collection.
We all take from whatever clinician what works for us, what we feel comfortable using.
It is a fact, that people showing in ANY upper level discipline, are going to use some methods that you or I would not use, where we show or just ride
I mean,I don't fence a horse, to help teach a stop, but then again, I am not trying to perfect a sliding stop, teach a horse not to try and 'cheat in the run down
Of course I can see degrees of difference, and you are also comparing someone just training ahorse and people training horses to be competitive at the upper end, in their discipline
Using anything to win, can be another entire topic, and we can go into that also, as I have never injected hocks to push a young horse to the max, have never had tails blocked, have never shown horses on drugs, not even mares on regulmate
I admit to never having show at World level, but like to think, even then I would not be tempted to do something that \everyone does' in order to maximize chance of winning

This topic was on whether a western horse can be ridden with contact, even though he is now ridden on a loose rein, as a more finished horse, without being confused, showing bit Resistance when contact is used, throwing head, and the answer is yes, that horse understands contact , and I for one don't believe anyone can train a horse totally on a loose rein from day one
I posted shiller, as even he gets a horse behind the vertical, head low, training a concept, but that does not mean how that horse is ridden. It is a training method
If we wish to discus trainers, lets put that on the training board, as I believe old Clinton can take a break for the limelight


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Perhaps, I should have just posted some of my own examples, far as a western horse able to understand and accept light contact, having been originally trained useing contact

Charlie, ridden by afriend, when I was getting over knee replacements



Charlie leased one summer, to another friend, who rode her English




My Einstein, just relaxing, warming up English



Charlie, crossing a river, head just where she feels it needs to be




Charlie, finding her own best way down this bank




Einstein, just on atrail ride


Here I am riding Charlie with some contact, western, during atraining session



Does not mean I don't get the following, just riding out, and perhaps a more 'broke' ride also, should I need it. 



It is kind of disappointing that the entire purpose of those posts were over shadowed by people feeling they needed to critique the training instead, while I I wanted to show, was that a well trained western horse has a foundation suing bit contact, can go back to it, even once he is ridden one handed and on aloose rein, giving to that bit, versus throwing head in resistence
I was not holding Dana on a pedestal trying to prove she is a trainer without compare, so why google to show her using technique that I myself do not like, when it has absolutely nothing to do with whether western horses understand and can accept contact?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Perhaps, I should have just posted some of my own examples, far as a western horse able to understand and accept light contact, having been originally trained useing contact

Charlie, ridden by afriend, when I was getting over knee replacements



Charlie leased one summer, to another friend, who rode her English




My Einstein, just relaxing, warming up English



Charlie, crossing a river, head just where she feels it needs to be




Charlie, finding her own best way down this bank




Einstein, just on atrail ride


Here I am riding Charlie with some contact, western, during atraining session



Does not mean I don't get the following, just riding out, and perhaps a more 'broke' ride also, should I need it. 



It is kind of disappointing that the entire purpose of those posts were over shadowed by people feeling they needed to critique the training instead, while I I wanted to show, was that a well trained western horse has a foundation suing bit contact, can go back to it, even once he is ridden one handed and on aloose rein, giving to that bit, versus throwing head in resistence
I was not holding Dana on a pedestal trying to prove she is a trainer without compare, so why google to show her using technique that I myself do not like, when it has absolutely nothing to do with whether western horses understand and can accept contact?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

very nice photos. I ride similarly.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Smilie said:


>


Knowing *nothing* about "proper" Western riding, allow me to ask: Is this a standard riding position in Western? She seems very far back in her saddle, her feet out in front of her. Does that not create a risk of being "left behind" if the horse accelerates?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> Knowing *nothing* about "proper" Western riding, allow me to ask: Is this a standard riding position in Western? She seems very far back in her saddle, her feet out in front of her. Does that not create a risk of being "left behind" if the horse accelerates?


This is a western pleasure class, not equitation, and even so, her aleignment is pretty good, and her feet are not ahead, but under her.
It is a modification of riding position, , far as sitting back, although this is not really an example of that, to help slow a horse in western pleasure, and if your horse accelerates fast , then you are out the gate, far as western pl!
The rider;s shoulder hip and heel are in great aleignment. The rider is also petite, and perhaps the saddle seat is a bit large for her


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I probably ride with my feet a bit too far forward, a habit from usually riding in my balance ride saddle at home, which puts me in that position


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## Light (Mar 4, 2012)

Your horses are great. Shows very well that horses can do many different things very well.


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

Hopefully you have a tack store where you can actually sit in a variety of saddles and see what's most comfortable.

My favorite trail saddle is my deep seated dressage saddle and since you ride in those with a longer leg than hunt, it might work for you. Wearing half chaps with it makes it an extremely secure saddle too.

Also, bear in mind that not only are synthetics lighter and cheaper but the seat is also softer and they can be scrubbed with soap and water. My old Abetta is about the ugliest saddle I've every seen but everyone fights over it because the seat is so comfortable!

For trail and riding around casually, no one is going care about your "style" (one of the many things I love about trail riding!).


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> Knowing *nothing* about "proper" Western riding, allow me to ask: Is this a standard riding position in Western? She seems very far back in her saddle, her feet out in front of her. Does that not create a risk of being "left behind" if the horse accelerates?


*Take this with a big steaming cup of FWIW, since I'm a self-taught rider...*​
First, many western cantles are 4" high. Some are 5". The old western saddles often went higher. One in a museum had a 9 inch cantle! It isn't like a jump saddle or even my Aussie saddle. You don't feel like there is a big risk of sliding off the rear.

But for proper riding, your legs move to where they can help you most with what you are doing. With a green or spooky horse, or riding in a place where your horse may throw it in reverse or stumble, then heels forward with a long leg can be a very good thing. Any unexpected slowing or stumble just drives you into the stirrups. Crow hops are pretty easy to ride like that, too.

If my horse may spin, then I feel best balanced with my heels under my hip. That puts my weight further back, which is what the horse does when he spins. It also means I simply rotate around with the horse. My position matches the spin. Seems to work well for a western jog, too.

For normal riding, I like what the British Cavalry taught in the early 1800s: that the heel should be just in front of a plumb bob dropped from the soldier's chest. That gives me the option of sliding my feet a few inches forward or a few inches back very easily. I think of it as the equivalent of a tennis player trying to stay near the center of the court. Not all balls come down the center, but you don't want to be far to the right when the ball goes far to the left!

As speed increases, most western riders adopt a forward seat. Longer leg, but heels and shoulders come forward to match the horse.

In a show, a lot depends on the type of show and the current ideal. This was considered good reining form in 1987, but would freak people out today:








​
My favorite saddle's resting, "neutral" position puts my feet forward. For the horses I ride and where I ride, that is fine. It is like when I visited an old friend on a ranch in Utah last summer. I asked him the proper way to do something. "_Out here_", he replied, "_there may not BE a proper way. I can show you how I like to do it, but others do it differently and get good results._"

I'll never cut cattle, but my horses have tried to cut garbage cans, so to speak. This video is closer to what I like in western riding and riders. It would make no sense in an equitation class but has worked for me when my horse has swapped ends in a spook:





​


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

All modern performance western saddles allow you free moment of your legs
My balance ride is made that way.
Can't have those old equitation saddles with the built up front, that locked you in place, nor all that bulk under your legs, not if you are going to take acow down the fence, or ride a sliding stop, ect

Close contact on my balance ride



[/URL

me, running poles some time ago

[URL=http://s335.photobucket.com/user/KiloBright/media/Classiegames.jpg.html]

My son, turning a cow on the fence


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## DanisMom (Jan 26, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> I wonder when western riding became so much about pulling on the face of the horse?
> 
> here is another video by the same trainer, Smilie, who herself says she doesn't do the ol' snap-snap on their mouths, . . . and yet, look at this!
> 
> ...


I absolutely could not watch that video all the way through. What horrible hands that woman has!! My mare would dump her on her butt and deservedly so! The horse was obviously unhappy. Can't imagine why anyone would want to yank continually on a horse like that. That horse is a saint.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Golly. This thread went down a rabbit hole! lol

To the OP: Yes, you can ride with a western seat in an "english" saddle. How comfortable and/or secure you will be will depend on the type of saddle you have.

"English" riders display some variation in their position. I recall an interview with a young woman from England in the 70s. She rode forward seat saddle with an atypical seat. She finally figured out she was riding "western."

Most important: Have fun!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Going back to the video that Tiny posted , concerning Dana, first, i don't use that technique nor like it, is not what I meant, far as using contact, but there is a reason some western trainers use it, in training, and itis all geared towards a western horse needing to eventually be shown on a totally loose rein, versus with some contact, regardless if performing a slow pattern or running a pattern at speed, as in reining
thus, there is an over exaggeration used, far as flexing, during training at times, so that when the hrose is shown on a loose rein, he does not o resort to sticking nose out, ect, esp in some fast moves, where bit contact can't be used to keep him correct
I am not saying that is any method someone should use, but explaining it to a degree, esp to those that never have shown a horse a totally loose rein.
The horse is also a senior horse, ridden in a curb, who knows where he should be, and is being not jerked, but bumped when he gets out of position
It is not the way Dana shows ahorse, as I have watched some clinics of hers at the Mane Event
I really think topics on Dana Hokana should be moved to the training forum, as the only video I posted of hers, was the original one, to show that western hroses are trained with some contact, and in no way was trying to endorse all of her methods, nor to turn this into a trainer's thread, as we have a forum for that!


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