# Help! Won't go into creek!



## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Horses looking at water is tricky. They can't perceive depth, so to them it looks very scary.

For me, I like to work a horse pretty hard next to the water and then offer them a rest facing it or when they take a step towards it. If they back away, then I take them away and work them hard again. Teach them water = rest.

Or, alternatively, if the horse is of sound mind I will back them down the slope and into the water. Once they are in, generally they are fine.


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## horseluver250 (Oct 28, 2009)

I have had good luck getting a horse into water by backing them in first, as sorrelhorse suggested. You would have to find a safe spot in the creek to do so though.


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

when you say you "recently" got this horse, how recently? How much do you think you have worked with this horse up to now? Horses are not scared of water, they drink water they will walk through it on there own at will. (its madding isn't it). I think that you and your horse have work to do it shouldn't matter what is in front of you, water, tarp, jump, stairs, road, bridge, ditch, or cliff. If "your" training is where is should be you ask the horse to move forward if you have done what you need to do, your horse should move forward. Just because she is "great" at everything else doesn't matter. You have found one of the "thing" that you horse feels is too much for you to ask.

As for working with her to cross the creek. If you haven't had her very long I would skip it do lots and lots of ground work, working on obeying and trust. Once you feel you have some very good ground rules and your horse know you are the boss no matter what, then come back to the creek. 

If the creek has *ANY* embankment to it I WOULD NOT back you horse down to cross the creek. (IMO) FOR ME I would back a horse into anything to get them into it BUT that's just my opinion. 

When I am getting a horse to cross water or whatever they don't want to walk up to. I point their nose at the thing and ask them to move forward (keep a good seat don't lean forward). So I ask them to move forward, the ONLY time I move them away from "the thing" is when they move forward. So I ask them to move forward, they take a step in the right direction, I release the perish, if the horse is getting too worked up I will ride away from the thing (I might just turn them away from the thing), give them time to rest a few seconds then point them back at the thing, and ask again. So on and so on, over and over until they cross the water, step on the tarp, smell the scary rock...whatever the "thing" is. 

But, if this is a big fight I have to decide do I really need to fight this here and now, can I work on this problem in some other place, what is the training that is lacking in my horse that is holding them back from doing this. ITS NOT THE WATER its a training issue. let the water go, think about training.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

RememberMeForThis99 said:


> I don't want this fear of going down the slope (which I really hate myself, by the way...


Maybe the horse is smarter than you are? As she sees what sounds like a somewhat dangerous slope with a creek at the bottom, senses that her rider is nervous about going down it, and (quite sensibly, IMHO) decides she's not going to do it.

So can you find another creek without the slope to practice creek crossings? And could you ride that crossing on another horse until you are confident?

PS: The steepish muddy slope going down to the crossing suggests you can't readily desensitize by going down there...


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I would not back down a slope. That is just asking for trouble. I had a paint that was afraid of water that was over his knees, we had to cross a river, and we crossed it the first time, mid stream we had a rodeo. I was pretty bruised and banged up b y the time we got back to the barn. After I healed up, I statred ponying him into the water, he figured out how to swim, then it was on bareback to swim him easy to slide off, wet jeans stick to leather, after a month or so, he would swim.


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## AnnaHalford (Mar 26, 2012)

Can you lead her down the slope / across the creek? From your post, it sounds as though you tried only under saddle, or did I miss something? 

Edit : yup, I missed something 

You need to work a bit more with your horse, then the day you go down there to try again, have the time to stay down there. Make her life difficult if she tries to turn away, give her a break and lots of praise if she stays facing it or takes a step in the right direction.


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## RememberMeForThis99 (Jan 14, 2013)

@CowboyBob; I have had Jane for a week and a half. I've done groundwork, free lounging and did a couple 'bombproofing' sessions. As I've said I've put a trash bag over her head, and she's done everything else I've asked of her. Also never once did I say she was "'great' at everything else". Do not quote what has not been said, please. And the 'one problem I have had with her' is of course an exaggeration. It's just the one problem I have not been able to solve or figure out how to solve so far, I come to this horse forum with a humbled mind and to get help. I do not come to be talked down to and to have people imply I'm a total idiot. 

@Jamesqf; She may actually. I'm very confident with the creek and slope though, I've been through it on other horses and know there isn't any threatening danger of going down it. There is another creek that I will try just to see if it really is the stepping into water or the slope that's the problem (CowboyBob; ever think that the horse may have been abused in/around water so associates water with pain?)

@AnnaHalford; I will try this. 

@SorrelHorse; I like the water equals rest idea. It's a muddy slope so I don't think I'll try backing into it... But thanks!

@Everyone; thanks for replying! I won't have time to go down to the creek today but I will do some more groundwork with her. I also have things in the ring I need to help her with!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I think you really took CowboyBob's post the wrong way. When I read it I didn't get any of the negativity you seem to have thought was there. 

Actually, he took the time to write out a really good reply. 

Because you haven't had the horse very long it is only natural that you guys don't have all the kinks worked out and all the trust you will have with a horse you owned for a long time. I don't think it means the horse doesn't respect you or anything....it's just a new horse and she doesn't trust you 100% yet. That doesn't mean it won't be there once you have a better relationship.

Will the horse cross (or at least get down to the water) if you lead her? That may help you get at least down to the water.


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## RememberMeForThis99 (Jan 14, 2013)

@trailhorserider; it was a good reply, I just couldn't help but feel a bad attitude as I read it. Especially with all the 'quotes', caps, bold text and '(it's maddening isn't it?)'. Others, like yourself, manage to get their opinion out without ticking the person you are trying to explain your opinion to off. And yes I totally agree about our relationship, I just asked about it because I didn't have any idea to help work it out and I didn't want to ruin her. She's such a wonderful horse so I'm trying to be as careful as I can when training her. I'm going to try another creek to see if she'll cross it later on in the week.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

RememberMeForThis99 said:


> @Jamesqf; She may actually. I'm very confident with the creek and slope though, I've been through it on other horses and know there isn't any threatening danger of going down it.


OK, I must have misunderstood what you wrote about hating going down the slope.

Also, though I'm far from being an expert, I wouldn't think that a week and a half would be long enough to really build trust between horse & rider.


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

RememberMeForThis99 said:


> @CowboyBob; I have had Jane for a week and a half. I've done groundwork, free lounging and did a couple 'bombproofing' sessions. As I've said I've put a trash bag over her head, and she's done everything else I've asked of her. Also never once did I say she was "'great' at everything else". Do not quote what has not been said, please. And the 'one problem I have had with her' is of course an exaggeration. It's just the one problem I have not been able to solve or figure out how to solve so far, I come to this horse forum with a humbled mind and to get help. I do not come to be talked down to and to have people imply I'm a total idiot.
> 
> (CowboyBob; ever think that the horse may have been abused in/around water so associates water with pain?)


:shock::shock::shock:
I am sorry, I did not mean to imply you are a total idiot (I was not trying to imply anything), I did not mean to come across as though I was talking down to you, I did not mean to act like a jerk. I only used to word the great to some-up all good things she is. Not to say she is bad or anything it was just easier to write great then to spell out everything. The (it's madding isn't it) was me saying I have been there I understand. how is it a horse that will walk through water on its own won't do it while being ridden. I am sorry. 

Its hard to give advice to someone you have never meet, about a horse you have never seen, with very little information. Knowing that the person you are talking to is likely to go home and try the thing you advised them on. At times makes me nerves, I use capital letters and bold to add to the words and thoughts that I would verbalize different if I was talking to you not just typing. Reading what someone typed is hard to know the true intentions and feelings behind the words and leads people to have to assume tone and inflection. 

I am sorry I did not express myself. 

PS. To any administrators If you feel, I was offensive please remove my post from this thread, and send me a private message. Again I am sorry, I did not mean to cause any trouble. 


PSS. "(CowboyBob; ever think that the horse may have been abused in/around water so associates water with pain?)"

I did not respond to this as I don't know If my advice is welcome at this time.


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## CatrinaB87 (Dec 29, 2008)

RememberMeForThis99 said:


> @trailhorserider; it was a good reply, I just couldn't help but feel a bad attitude as I read it. Especially with all the 'quotes', caps, bold text and '(it's maddening isn't it?)'. Others, like yourself, manage to get their opinion out without ticking the person you are trying to explain your opinion to off. And yes I totally agree about our relationship, I just asked about it because I didn't have any idea to help work it out and I didn't want to ruin her. She's such a wonderful horse so I'm trying to be as careful as I can when training her. I'm going to try another creek to see if she'll cross it later on in the week.



I mean personally, it ticks me off that my horse will cross a creek going out, but refuses to cross it coming back. Most horses are the opposite.

It also ticks me off that I can't ride him through a mud puddle, but you put a four year old on him and he walks right into it.

So yeah, *maddening* is the perfect descriptor. Causes me to break out in fits of four letter words.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Nice words, CowboyBob.
Often it is difficult to reply to a post because we usually have limited information. Often we don't know the experience of the poster nor the training of the horse, etc. It's hard to get it right. I certainly have run into that.
But there is a lot of good info here from horsemen and horsewomen who have faced and solved so many of the issues we all face.
I want to work on water crossing next month. I'll take dry shoes in case I need to walk. Hope I won't need a change of clothes, too!


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## CatrinaB87 (Dec 29, 2008)

Maddening. The only way it would be worse is if he stuck his tongue out as I snapped this picture.


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## RememberMeForThis99 (Jan 14, 2013)

@CowboyBob. Thank you for explaining your intentions. I'm sorry I mistook your words as rudeness. I'm very used to a lot of horse people telling me how to ride/work my horse in a horrible manner. Next time just get to the point, without really assuming anything, ask questions if you need to know more about the horse or rider. And the horses being scared of water because of past abuse was a response to when you said water is not the problem. 

@jamesqf; The slope is safe to go down, but it's not very appealing if that makes sense...And no, normally a week and half is not enough time to build a good strong bond between horse and rider. I never claimed to have this bond, but she's very trusting in every rider as long as they are confident in what they are asking her to do.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

OP, I wonder if it has perhaps occurred to you that maybe, the water is indeed not the issue here?

My 2yo Thoroughbred filly isn't a big fan of water, but her REAL challenge is slopes! She grew up on a farm that was really hilly so she IS used to them and will lead up and down them no issues but my property is very flat and I don't have a good long gentle hill to ride her up and down. Hence, when we go out on trails, we have issues getting down certain trails, because a few of them have small but steep hills, and others have ditches that need crossing [wide ones thankfully]. I broke her to ride on this property and so, as young and inexperienced as she is, I'm almost certain that what's going through her head is as follows: "Seriously? I'm not quite sure what to do with your weight on the FLAT yet, you want me to go up and down HILLS?"

Have you taken this horse down a slope of a similar grade with no water at the bottom? How about water with a flat approach?


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

CowboyBob, I thought you offered some very good advice and I hope the OP's initial response doesn't deter you from posting in the future. You never know who will be reading these posts and the information you share could come in very handy to someone else, despite how others respond.


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## RememberMeForThis99 (Jan 14, 2013)

@blue eyed pony; I have considered either to be the problem. CowboyBob seemed to believe that water could never be the problem, which is why I offered the chance that horse associates water with pain in the case of past abuse. I never said the slope wasn't the problem, the creek was the problem or anything. I actually said in my first post that I doubt water is the problem... I haven't taken her down any slopes like the ones I described, minus the water, yet. As I've said there is another creek which I will try to take her through later on in the week.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Whoa... defensive much?

In actual fact water in and of itself CAN be "the problem". Some horses will flat out refuse to go near it. Running water in particular is incredibly challenging. My gelding LOVES water but to take him to the beach you wouldn't think it... he's so hard to get in. It's the waves. He does NOT like moving water.


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## RememberMeForThis99 (Jan 14, 2013)

@blue eyed pony. I'm very confused with what you want from me, as you first said have I considered water not to be the problem, and now you are saying it may very well be the problem, whilst I'm saying that I'm not sure which it is but I'm not denying it's any of them at this time though you seem to be ignoring that (sorry if I'm mistaken). I'm not trying to be defensive but I had previously stated most of what I just said so you can understand I'm a bit annoyed, I don't mean to be, I'm just human. I'm complying with you completely so I really don't see a reason why you should be angry/annoyed with me...I'm sorry if you sense a bad attitude when I replied, as I did with CowboyBob. As I replied to your first reply I just wanted you to understand why I said what I did earlier in response to CowboyBob, so you did not mistake my meaning of saying that.

Oh the water is very slow moving/standing water. It's a shallow creek, deep at some points but at the point of crossing it's shallow.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

That's horses for you.

One horse might see the slope heading down to a stream or creek and think OMG THAT WATER WILL EAT ME, the next might see it and think OMG I CAN'T GO DOWN THAT SLOPE I MIGHT BREAK A LEG AND DIE, and the next might not be bothered at all.

My gelding will do down ANY slope, provided the footing is safe. He's a far better judge of that than I am. My filly takes convincing. Both of them will go into water, but neither is especially big on the idea. Monty's nearly impossible to get OUT once you've got him in, but getting him in is a challenge sometimes. I firmly believe that at this point in time, asking Magic to go down a slope into water would result in disaster. She'd rear, or buck me off... one of the two. We have forward, she's just stubborn, sensitive, and flighty, and hasn't been desensitized enough to water or to slopes yet. Asking Monty to... well... I do it every winter! He's an eventing horse, he should in theory JUMP into water if his rider says it's safe.


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## RememberMeForThis99 (Jan 14, 2013)

@blue eyed pony; your horses seem to have a awful lot of personality. I'd also like to say I like the song (and band) from which the lyrics in your signature are from.

Later in the week or at the weekend I will try taking her to the other creek to confirm if or if not the slope is the problem or the water is. I value and will try your suggestions, thank you!


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

lol yes, and I wouldn't have them any other way. Magic surprises me on a daily basis because I have to admit I still expect her to try to buck every time I get on her back - she's a baby and she has succeeded in getting me off a couple of times, and with how smart she is all it takes is once... but at the same time she seems to really enjoy being ridden. She likes having a job to do, that one.

Monty on the other hand would be quite content to be retired. He's a lazy, stubborn old coot. Likes his long walking trail rides and LOVES jumping and cross country, to the point where he turns into a fire-breathing dragon and just wants to gallop everywhere. He's completely bipolar, and absolutely a character.

I love horses that have personality. Especially the ones that love a good cuddle. I have friends who have horses that have all the personality of a cardboard box, and I would be so bored... my favourite horses at work are the ones that steal your hat off your head, or 'help' with the mucking out, or pinch the haybag off you and go bolting around the pasture with it in their mouth. The quiet ones that just sort of stand there and wait for you to feed them are boring!


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Hahaha the jumping into water thing cracks me up...Had a couple really stupid colts do that instead of walking in and it was just like, "Really? REALLY?"

I agree that slope does not sound safe to back down, so I'm glad you decided against it.

Let us know what kind of results you have.


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

RememberMeForThis99 said:


> @blue eyed pony; I have considered either to be the problem. CowboyBob seemed to believe that water could never be the problem, which is why I offered the chance that horse associates water with pain in the case of past abuse. I never said the slope wasn't the problem, the creek was the problem or anything. I actually said in my first post that I doubt water is the problem... I haven't taken her down any slopes like the ones I described, minus the water, yet. As I've said there is another creek which I will try to take her through later on in the week.


I am really not trying to pick a fight here. And. I was even thinking about staying out of this Thread. But, since I am being talked about (not in a bad way) just a few thoughts. 

First:
" CowboyBob seemed to believe that water could never be the problem,"

I never said that water could never be the problem. I was saying that in this issue I would think that the water was not the big problem. That doing more ground work, and lots of confidences building work away from the creek could go a long ways towards helping your horse with the creek. I also gave you the method I use to work a horse through similar issues just in case you wanted to work this out at the creek. 

Second:
"which is why I offered the chance that horse associates water with pain in the case of past abuse." 
"(CowboyBob; ever think that the horse may have been abused in/around water so associates water with pain?)"

No, I don't ever assume that if I am having a problem with a horse that the reason for the problem is do to some past mystery abuser _(this could be a mistake on my part as I have never knowingly worked with abused horses)._ In the event that a horse was abused with water or in water or near water or all the above. My advice would not be any different I would have advised you to work with your horse the same way I did in my fist post. 
(_I can see how this could be read with a hole lot of attitude but its not. Maybe a little exaggeration just to make a point. I am not upset or mad as I write this. I am not trying to make fun of anything anyone has said in this thread._) 

Third:
 "I actually said in my first post that I doubt water is the problem"

Ok so this confuses me just a little.? So its ok for you to say that the water might not be the problem, but; when I say the water is not the problem then I'm a jerk* for not thinking the horse could have been abused??? I don't understand?? (* _you never called me a jerk for thinking the horse was abused_)

So all that to say, I still would advise you to work with your horse in the same way as I did in my first post. I have had lots of luck working horses into, onto and through different things over the years using the same method I described in my first post. (Just a side note it also works with loading into a trailer). 

Again, my intention in re-entering this thread was just to "clear the air" as to my thoughts; what I did say and what I did not say and to better explain things that might have been said better. I am not trying to imply anything, or make judgments on anyone. Just stating what and how I see thing.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

We have a creek that the horses cross fine when they are in that pasture. Add a rider, and they are hesitant. I think that carrying a rider changes everything. They know that their balance and work load is different. 

The horse I am riding now does not want to cross one particular creek. She will, however, follow another horse over it without a problem. To start with, I had to get off and lead her. I think that she will get her confidence up as we keep working.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

We also have a creek (seasonal) in the pasture, and the horses cross it. We will be camping this summer and our favorite trail has access to the perfect creek crossing.Level entry, fairly wide. good bottom and about knee deep. It will be interesting to see how it goes when crossing with a rider is our idea and not theirs. 
OP...I hope you post how the training is going. We always learn from the experiences of others.


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## RememberMeForThis99 (Jan 14, 2013)

@CowboyBob; 

First; Note the word "seemed".

Second; You said; "Horses are not scared of water,", which is why I said a horse could have been abuse. Not my horse, but a horse, just in general. Now you are right in a way, that the water isn't the problem but the horse associating the water with pain/abuse would be the problem. But are tons of other reason why a horse would be scared of some forms of water. They can't see the bottom of it and think it's a massive black hole that will suck them up and kill them. That part of a sentence is also why it 'seemed' as if you did not think water could be the problem.

Third; I said I 'doubt' not that 'Water is not the problem/it's not the water/it could never be the water' or however I would put it. I'm guessing the slope is the problem but it could very well be the water as I have not confirm anything. I explained this to blue eyed pony as best I could. I retorted to you on your above comment because you *seemed* to think that water could never (what I assumed, by mistake) be the problem. I hope this clears things up?

@texasgal; believe it or not that was supposed to be constructive criticism. At the time I had thought of no other way to say 'Just say what you think the person should do with only necessary details'. As I felt like he was repeating himself a little bit and other things, in my own opinion. Later in that same sentence I say "ask questions about the horse or rider.". And the "horrible manner" I get told how to ride/work in is when someone gives me advice when I didn't ask for it, wants me to be a copy of themselves or assumes I know nothing about horses. Which is the main reason I felt offended by CowboyBob's comment as I thought he was talking down to me. Note the "thought" for future reference. 

Any future replies that are meant or seem insulting while being complete off topic, Texasgal, I'm sorry to point you out but this really isn't the place to be sarcastic and intentionally, well, mean, I will not reply. I really don't know I bothered replying to some replies to clear the air or help you see what I was thinking at the time. Go on thinking I'm hippocratic, an idiot, mean, know-it-all or whatever else you had in your heads. I came here for help and have gotten a lot of helpful replies, which I am thankful for.


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

RememberMeForThis99 said:


> @CowboyBob;
> 
> Second; You said; "Horses are not scared of water,", which is why I said a horse could have been abuse. Not my horse, but a horse, just in general. Now you are right in a way, that the water isn't the problem but the horse associating the water with pain/abuse would be the problem. But are tons of other reason why a horse would be scared of some forms of water. They can't see the bottom of it and think it's a massive black hole that will suck them up and kill them. That part of a sentence is also why it 'seemed' as if you did not think water could be the problem.


I have been thinking about it, and I have to say first I have not and I do not pretend to know every horse that has ever lived and that is alive now. But, I will agree with myself "Horses are not scared of water". To say they are would mean that they could be scared or Hay, Grain or Grass. 

The only time I have seen horses that could have been scared of water was when a tank heater was shorting out and the horses would get shocked every time they would try to drink. But, after we fixed the problem every horse went back to that same tank to drink. 

I think horses know what water is and for whatever reason in their training will refuse to go into water. I have ridden lots of horses into deep water rivers, ponds and creeks and I have yet to ride one that I believed could not go into the water because they were too scared to go into the water. Some went willingly right off, some it took 20 to 30 minutes to get them into the water. 
So no I do not believe horses are scared of water. If a horse was truly scared of water they could live very long.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Horses are not afraid to get a drink. They are afraid of possible poor footing that might make them fall or get stuck. They are afraid that the creek is a bottomless pit that will sink then into the eternal fires of Hades where they will be eaten alive by dragons. They are afraid of the trolls that live under the bridge. But when you try to cross that new creek or scary bridge, it is easy to perceive that they are scared of water.


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## CatrinaB87 (Dec 29, 2008)

Well cowboy bob, although you are trying to help, apparently YOUR help is not wanted! I on the other hand have a horse with a similar problem..

We went out on a trail and he crossed the creek going out. Coming back it was getting dark, close to feeding time, the other two horses went right through and mine flat out refused. Never pinned his ears, never acted nasty, just really did not want to.

I did a lot of pressure and release (kick and spin towards, as soon as he would take a step i would give him his head and quit kicking) but I never got him to do more than sniff the water. When he got fed up with being too close he would back up, so I would have to start the whole process all over again. I have videos, if you think they would help, but I would have to put them online. I haven't done it yet because honestly, it's embarrassing.

And yes cowboybob, i'm asking you!!


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

Celeste said:


> Horses are not afraid to get a drink. *They are afraid of possible poor footing that might make them fall or get stuck.* They are afraid that the creek is a bottomless pit that will sink then into the eternal fires of Hades where they will be eaten alive by dragons. They are afraid of the trolls that live under the bridge. But when you try to cross that new creek or scary bridge, it is easy to perceive that they are scared of water.


Now That is something I would agree with they could be unsure of there footing and that would make them insecure.

The bottomless pit theory although funny and very fun to think about, I don't know that I agree. If this was the case then they would not cross water ever. I have had big fights with horses working though this kind of thing and later seen the same horse cross the creek on its own with no problem.

CatrinaB87 I sent you a private massage.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Bob, I may have exaggerated just a bit..............


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Catrine....okay, obviously you got back somehow because you are on your computer. So, did you ever get him to cross or did you have to find a bridge, or go around somehow????? I gots to have an end of the story!

Maybe you are messaging from your phone and you are still out by the creek! Oh, no! Do we need to send the cavalry?


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Haven't you noticed how well a horse will cross water on the way home? No problem at all.


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## iRide Ponies (Aug 10, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> Haven't you noticed how well a horse will cross water on the way home? No problem at all.


Ehh, Not all horses. Mine, (like the other poster who got stuck with their horse on the far side of a creek, sorry, didn't catch your user) have in the past had problems crossing creeks whitest going homewards. Thankfully, we are over it now.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Celeste said:


> Horses are not afraid to get a drink. They are afraid of possible poor footing that might make them fall or get stuck. They are afraid that the creek is a bottomless pit that will sink then into the eternal fires of Hades...


Exactly! It's not the fact that it's water, it's that it's an unfamiliar terrain obstacle. I've written before of trying to get Ellie across her first (as far as we know) creek. That was a meadow creek, about 18 inches wide and a foot deep, with vertical sides & water at the bottom. That was different from the shallow water creek running across a gravelly dip in the road, and yes, it took some persuasion to get her across that the first time. It was still another thing to get her to walk into the shallow water at the edge of a lake... All of these were "water" as we humans categorize things, yet to her perceptions they were obviously different. Each of them needed a separate overcoming of that initial reluctance to go into something unknown. Once that was accomplished, she would readily cross other similar-to-her things.


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## CatrinaB87 (Dec 29, 2008)

Dustbunny said:


> Catrine....okay, obviously you got back somehow because you are on your computer. So, did you ever get him to cross or did you have to find a bridge, or go around somehow????? I gots to have an end of the story!
> 
> Maybe you are messaging from your phone and you are still out by the creek! Oh, no! Do we need to send the cavalry?



We did eventually get him over, but only because someone on the other side pulled him across. We were planning on tossing a rope over to the people who made it across and have them pull him over while I sat on him for principle, but With it being mid-winter (not that they are that bad in NC) and still had an hour and a half ride after the creek, I chose to err on the side of safety and address the problem in warmer weather when I had some light. As soon as I was off of him and someone gave a little tug, he went across. It could have been my nervousness throwing him off. Next time I'll head out earlier and in warmer weather!


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

jamesqf said:


> Exactly! It's not the fact that it's water,* it's that it's an unfamiliar terrain obstacle.* I've written before of trying to get Ellie across her first (as far as we know) creek. That was a meadow creek, about 18 inches wide and a foot deep, with vertical sides & water at the bottom. That was different from the shallow water creek running across a gravelly dip in the road, and yes, it took some persuasion to get her across that the first time. It was still another thing to get her to walk into the shallow water at the edge of a lake... All of these were "water" as we humans categorize things, yet to her perceptions they were obviously different. * Each of them needed a separate overcoming of that initial reluctance to go into something unknown.* Once that was accomplished, she would readily cross other similar-to-her things.


I like how you put that "unfamiliar terrain obstacle" for a young horse or one that has never be outside, crossing water with a rides can be different then crossing water. And I think I could even say that yes a creek could be different from a pond and that different from the ocean. and just like any trail obstacle the horses "will" can play into the issue as well. All trail obstacles requires the horse to do what the rider asks. Its not always a fear issue it's a willingness issue which would be a training issue or a riders ability issue. And that is why I think its easier to say "the horse is afraid" rather then see it for what it is a training issue or riders ability issue.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

OP, IMHO you would like somebody to come over and fix this for you. Maybe the pigs will fly today and that will happen. I'm sorry that you can't tell that you've been given REALLY GOOD ADVICE. Stop picking on Cowboy Bob. I'd ride with HIM any day of the week bc I can tell that his horses behave.
Lynn Palm had an excellent recent program on training horses to water. If you get HRTV it will be on again, and you can TIVO it and watch it over and over until you understand. She tells you to train the horse to be obedient FIRST. *That could be your real problem.* Lynn's horses will move only one foot at a time for her. She has inspired me to teach my horses to do the same. (If you don't know who she is, she was "Rugged Lark"'s trainer, who did 10 years of bridleless demos, both Western and English (Hunter and Dressage.))
Honestly, when I took my lesson horses, who were solidly broken bc they had ~1,000 hours under saddle/year out on family vacations, or CW National Reenactments, and they didn't want to go anywhere, I just had them follow their broken-to-anything herd leader. Once they crossed a funny bridge, or crossed a stream a few times following HIM, it was never a problem afterwards.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

I totally agree it is a training/respect issue. When I first started riding my horse she wanted nothing to do with the creek running through our property. She was a stubborn mule and absolutely would not move a muscle. I was going to be more stubborn and sit on her for as long as it took until it was her idea to cross the creek. I waited an hour. And 10,000 mosquito bites later, I gave up. 

We went back to the round pen and worked our butts off for the next couple of months. When I went back to the creek months later, I asked her to cross, she put her head down and sniffed, found the easiest route and crossed like she has done it everyday of her life. 

She had learned that I expect a response to my aids. We worked with crossing tarps, crossing a bridge, crossing a teeter-totter, walking through hanging strips of tarp. Anything and everything I could come up with to test her compliance and show her that she could trust me that I wouldn't let her get hurt. 

It has made her a rock solid trail horse that is super fun to ride!


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

Sahara said:


> We went back to the round pen and worked our butts off for the next couple of months. When I went back to the creek months later, I asked her to cross, she put her head down and sniffed, found the easiest route and crossed like she has done it everyday of her life.
> 
> She had learned that I expect a response to my aids. We worked with crossing tarps, crossing a bridge, crossing a teeter-totter, walking through hanging strips of tarp. Anything and everything I could come up with to test her compliance and show her that she could trust me that I wouldn't let her get hurt.
> 
> It has made her a rock solid trail horse that is super fun to ride!


Sahara that is a great example of it being fixed the right way!!!

I LOVE TEETER-TOTTERS!!!!!!!! 
If you have never played on one with a horse you have no idea how much you are missing out!! They are amazing. At a place I use to work we have one it was like 8 feet across and 12 to 15 feet long it was such a great way to work with a horse. I really want to build one here were I am now working.


Corporal thank you  those were some very nice words


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

Horses learn to trust you and to move forward on command. Its just a matter of teaching your horse, as the others have pointed out. It really doesn't matter what the object is that you are crossing, It's the same concept.

Practice in your yard over blue tarps, then make a mud puddle, then find a log or big rock then a stream, Every chance you get, ask your horse to deal with a new challenge.

Bridges




Boardwalks across boggy areas along the trail


Logs


River crossing




Rocks




I guess what I'm saying, is don't just go for a trail ride, Go for a training ride. Work any obstacle that you find along the way. Pretty soon the horses just deal with the obstacles even with novice riders on their back.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Painted Horse said:


> .I guess what I'm saying, is don't just go for a trail ride, Go for a training ride. Work any obstacle that you find along the way. Pretty soon the horses just deal with the obstacles even with novice riders on their back.


I can do some work here at home but the training ground is the trail.
Fun, interesting and no end of obstacles!


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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

Getting to the point quickly.
" I have had Jane for a week and a half. I've done groundwork, free lounging and did a couple 'bombproofing' sessions"

A week and a half, DOES NOT a trained horse, MAKE. This horse has your number. Go back to basic training, until the horse is well trained, then it will go anywhere you point it. The water is not the issue, the slope is not the issue, BUT training IS.

Horses are incapable of trust, but they can read your actions, and lack thereof, better than your Mother. Once you have properly trained this horse, this problem will be non existent.


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## LesandLily (Oct 8, 2012)

bbsmfg3 said:


> Getting to the point quickly.
> " I have had Jane for a week and a half. I've done groundwork, free lounging and did a couple 'bombproofing' sessions"
> 
> A week and a half, DOES NOT a trained horse, MAKE. This horse has your number. Go back to basic training, until the horse is well trained, then it will go anywhere you point it. The water is not the issue, the slope is not the issue, BUT training IS.
> ...


Bob is completely right here. It appears to me that you may not have a water crossing issue, but instead a trust, training, disrespect issue rearing itself out as a water crossing issue. Horses will always be cautious of anything that appears to them to be questionable but once they gain trust in you as a leader and you have trained them to respond in a certain way to your requests, they will move over nearly anything. But you have to build that trust first. Your mare is just a youngster still and I am sure she will make an outstanding horse but you need to be sure you are taking the steps now to get her a good foundation. A four year old has not seen enough of the world yet and you have not spent enough time on her back yet to really create a fearless trail horse. Spend the time getting the foundation and then start tackling obstacle to make her fearless and totally trusting in your judgement.

Be careful using the "my horse was abused" excuse as well. I have seen many, many horses that were truly abused get over their base fears with patience and a solid approach to training. I have also seen too many horse get away with dangerous disrespect because the owners used the "she was abused" excuse. Treat her like any other horse. Forget any idea of her background and go back and put a solid foundation on her. You will never regret it. 

Good luck, have fun with her and be careful!

Cheers!
Les


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I think that the OP recognizes that her horse has a training issue. That is why she wanted to know how to train her horse to cross the creek. It seems like people are trying to beat her up over this. I suspect she is doing fine. If it were me, I would keep working with the horse at home. If I wanted to cross the creek, I would get somebody on another horse to pull her through it. Then as her training improves and her fears subside and she starts to respect her rider more, she will cross fine.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Would it be a good idea to maybe have someony pony the horse across a couple of times and then add the rider?
Just a thought. I'm sure no expert.


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

I have ponied horses over water because the rider couldn't make the horse go over. IMO, when its a horse that you know will cross water it just "is not in the mood" it works well with or without a rider. But, the times I have "pulled" a horse that would not cross the water because of a lack of experience, it didn't go well, Last time I tried it the horse I was ponying ended up under the horse I was riding.

After that I really have been thinking about how much it really helps to pony a horse through a trail obstacle. If, its as we have been saying a "training issue" then pony a horse through a obstacle really isn't "the best". Does ponying teach the horse to obey its rider and to move forward into the obstacle? I know you got to get the horse through somehow, otherwise what do you do? leave them there alone? or does the ride end just because one person can't get their horse into a creek, or over a log, or onto a bridge? So we "pony up" and pull the horse through the issue. BUT, what does the horse really learn? I think the important part never really gets worked out the horse never goes back home for training/re-training. The "rider" thinks we ponied them through now they are good. Right? I have to admit, there have been times when this is how and what I have thought.

We have to remember, like you all have been saying, having a problem with a obstacle is only a symptom of a gap in training and really the way to fix that gap is to train/re-train. That training can happen at home in a round pin, arena or out on a trail ride. BUT, training doesn't just happen it takes being intentional with when, where and how we ride and how we deal with trail obstacles and the opportunity they provide. 

Thank you all this has been a really good exercise for me to think through. This is why I really like this forum, it helps me think through the how and why of my training having to put my thoughts into words (_sometimes not the best word_) really forces me to look at my training methods. And really until now it was something that I didn't do nearly enough.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

The horse may do exactly what you tell her to do when it's something she is comfortable with. You haven't yet gained her respect, and therefore she sees no reason to listen to you when you ask her to do something outside of her comfort zone. That is the issue in a nutshell. You have not had her long enough, or worked with her enough to gain her respect as herd leader, apparently. It can often take mares longer to get to that point than geldings. Especially if she has lead mare tendencies. Get the respect first and then work on the water issue. 

One thing that really gets my hackles up, and this isn't directed at you OP, except that your one comment brought up the topic, is the "jump on the abuse bandwagon" state of mind that seems so common these days. SO many people, (I see it here on the forum almost daily) the second they have an issue, want to blame it on "maybe Fluffy was abused and thats why she doesn't like so and so". 99% of the time, Fluffy just doesn't respect you enough to behave or like whatever you are asking. It has nothing to do with abuse. Horses have minds of their own. They do not have to suffer abuse in order to dislike something.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

apachiedragon said:


> The horse may do exactly what you tell her to do when it's something she is comfortable with. You haven't yet gained her respect, and therefore she sees no reason to listen to you when you ask her to do something outside of her comfort zone.


You know, I think there are really two separate things going on here. There's teaching the horse to trust you, the rider, and there's teaching the horse to become more confident in herself about all the strange stuff she runs into out in the real world. Or at least that's what it seems like from the great depth of my one-horse experience 

On a really practical level, I don't - as a novice rider - really want to be riding a horse that has such complete trust (or trained obedience) that it will automatically do anything I command. After all, I could do some pretty stupid things, not knowing any better. I want her to have a degree of "horse sense" that will lead her to hesitate and say "Hey, boss? Are you really sure about this?" if she's not confident about our ability to handle something.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Everything like this is guesswork unless you actually know that something has happened in the horses past
The crows that sit on my ménage fence are demonic creatures yet the ones that follow them around the pasture are no worry at all - but horses are not so dumb and spooking is a good excuse for not working in there so just maybe your horse knows that going down this slope is the pathway away from home and security?
I've been through the whole scary water full of alligators thing with Looby (and many others) and usually its down to determination and patience plus having very solid confident horses to give her a lead
I've had the same with steep slopes too when she felt her feet sliding a bit the brakes would go on, I found leading her down with as little pressure on her as possible on a really long rope worked better than me trying to lead her from her bridle, she now sprints down like a mountain goat - it was just all down to her lack of confidence in herself & her gradual build up of trust in me


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## RememberMeForThis99 (Jan 14, 2013)

So I basically didn't read anyone replies since my last post, sorry! I hope you all know I appreciate them anyway!

Anyway; I finally got her to go down the slope and into the water by first doing a lot more groundwork, lounging for respect and trust and a bunch of other stuff like that. I've known had her for 3 weeks and a couple days incase anyone was wondering.

I went out by myself to the creek yesterday, I first did that "going to water is good, going away is bad" under saddle with both slopes down. After a while when she would stand facing the slope, calmly, though still didn't go down.

I hoped off, we were riding in a rope halter btw, and stepped down into the pebble part of the creek. I did the same thing as above, giving her praise if she looked down off the bank. After a while she stepped down from the bank, no going down the slope. 

After that she now goes in like normal and comes out. Today we went sort of swimming in the creek with my friend. We still need to gain confidence in each other, but I plan to do a lot more trail riding to help her. Also yesterday we went in about every creek I could find, she jumped over them at first but after letting her do it again she was fine.

Once again guys, thanks for replying and giving your opinions on the matter. Sorry this whole thing sort of got twisted and crazy. Live, laugh, ride! ^_^


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

I am so glad you are getting this worked out with your horse keep up the good work. Its always fun when you teach a horse that it can do something. Great job!!


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## redandrae420 (Jun 12, 2013)

OK so water is really scary to a horse. To start off find more of an even spot in the creek and ask a friend to hold your horse. Make sure your horse is paying attenion to you and silently walk through the water showing her that its ok. Then try to lead her in by foot if that doesn't work then find a shallow puddle of water or some where shallow lead her through that make it super shallow then increasing when she is cofortable with the amount of water and then increase.Good Luck!!!:lol::lol::lol:


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