# Is This Fair?



## EventingIsLovee (Sep 18, 2009)

I went to a show yesterday and my horse was amazing, compared to how he used to act during dressage in events last year. This test is the 2010 Beginner Novice A test, and I was thoroughly disappointed with my score. I got a 43.0 on the test, and I don't understand why. The test given back to me had all 6's and 3 5's on every move. Is this what I really deserved, or do you think the judge was too harsh on it?


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Well, I'm no Dressage Judge. I think Spyder would be more suitable for evaluating your dressage test and beable to give you more information than I could.

I do see you focused on a headset though, instead of allowing your horse to move forward and underhimself. I see short steps in his stride and a horse being compacted in, instead of being permitted to move forward and fluid.

Other than that, I see a nice ride.

Spyder??


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

Im no dressage judge, but your suppleling way to much,notice your horses head moving back and forth? your hands are doing that to him. instead of suppleing his head down, hold your hands still and push him into your hands with your legs, and supple a little bit when he falls onto his front end.i only watched the start because i am short on ime, but it didnt look that bad. cute horse


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## My Beau (Jan 2, 2009)

I see alot of nose wagging in the first half. And like MIEventer said, a horse that needs to move forward more, especially at the canter.

Other than that, it's a steady test. 

He's a pretty boy


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

One thing I have to mention right off the bat is I see his head swinging left-right-left-right continually. This usually comes from hands see-sawing the bit to get a headset, and it is a pain in the butt to correct. Unfortunately a horse with a beautiful blaze like your horse's is going to attract the judge's eye, and perhaps they noticed the wiggling right off the bat and marked weighing heavily on that. My eye is very distracted by that alone. As MIE pointed out, the horse is heavy on his forehand, and needs to rock back on its hindquarter (keep in mind that once the horse is working in a correct frame through his body his head will stay in the correct place.) 
You look like you have a fantastic start though, and the right trainer will bring you along and teach you correct frame and get that lovely horse to really work through himself properly.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I just did the same test with basically the same results. 5's & 6's with just one 8 on the initial entry move. I got a 40.5. When I look at both or our videos, I see an average lack-luster performance. Your horse looked about the same as mine, doing all the moves, but no real wow factor. The free walk wasn't there which is a double score which hurts. Like my trainer told me, since it was all 5's & 6's, at least it was consistent and it all can be improved. I couldn't help noticing the horse in the next ring in your video. If you look at the working trot down the long side where you are side by side with the other horse, look at the extra freedom, stretch and impulsion of the other horse. I bet that horse got a 7 or 8 for that trot. Somewhat unrelated, I've noticed that it's very hard to break 40 in the northeast. I've seen a lot of tests in other parts of the country where horse's break gaits or completely miss transitions and still score a 35. It drives me nuts!


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## dantexeventer (Jul 11, 2009)

You're off to a good start, but now you need to educate yourself about correct dressage training. You're riding the front of your horse rather than the back - in the canter especially, he is lacking in impulsion completely. Eventing dressage judges look at the impulsion a LOT, because it is so, so important throughout the other two phases. You need to forget about headset right now, and spend the time working on a slack rein, encouraging forward motion, and allowing your horse to figure out how to bring his hind end underneath himself. A round outline will come in time, but it's detrimental to force it with see-sawing hands. 
I've found, if you approach them when they're not busy, that most judges are really nice about explaining where you can improve. Tests are a great learning opportunity!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

EventingIsLovee said:


> I went to a show yesterday and my horse was amazing, compared to how he used to act during dressage in events last year. This test is the 2010 Beginner Novice A test, and I was thoroughly disappointed with my score. I got a 43.0 on the test, and I don't understand why. The test given back to me had all 6's and 3 5's on every move. Is this what I really deserved, or do you think the judge was too harsh on it?
> YouTube - GPC 2010 Dressage


The judge made a good call, in fact was a little generous.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Good on the judge. Over here it really irritates me that judges will hand out 70+% to riders who ride off the horses head, because they're 'junior' or 'unofficial'.

When a judge gives you low marks, don't go off and have a cry about it and say it's not fair the judge has no idea what they're talking about then go home and keep doing what you're doing and never get any better.
If they give you a low score, look through the test paper, read the comments that the judge has given you and see where you can improve. A test puts you under a lot of pressure so all your flaws will be likely to show. You'll get a good idea of what you need to work on from competition. Compete to train, don't train to compete. 

I would be interested to hear what comments the judge gave you for this test. It is ok, your horse goes around with its head down and goes from A to B in a fairly straight line. It's alright. But it's not a test that is going to stand out and pick up the higher marks. 

To get a better score next time, you really to concentrate on getting your horse working from the backend up into the bridle. Quit the silly head wiggling see-sawing action, that does nothing but distract the judge and probably make your horse dizzy!! Ride forwards into a steady hand, learn to use an outside rein and how to ride into it. If your instructor doesn't teach this, then find a new one if you want to better your chances of placing. Look in the dressage section of this forum. There are hundreds of topics in there with some great advice that will benefit you. 

You say he's improved greatly since last season. Well it's good that he's not spitting the dummy in the arena if that's what you're referring to. But don't expect the judges to mark on the improvement in behaviour, they mark what is put in front of them. And in your case they saw a horse that was being ridden by its head. That is not going to mark well. 

Also work on your position to help you gain marks. In canter your arms/elbows flap around all over the place. Concentrate on lifting your chest, allowing your elbows to rest at your sides and keep your lower arm steady to help encourage your horse to work into the bridle. At the moment he can't take a contact on the bit in canter because when he does he gets smacked in the mouth every stride.

Free walk is double marks as MyBoyPuck said above. In the free walk the ears should be level with, or ideally lower than the wither. A clear 4 beat march being encouraged by you moving your elbows in time with the movement of his head. You can encourage the lowering of the head in a free walk by opening your reins out a little while in a test to help you along a little. Make sure you keep a light contact, the free walk does not mean drop your reins. 

Keep practicing you're off to a good start. Just don't get shirty with the judges because they didn't give you a blue ribbon when you thought you should get one. Step back and compare the video to the papers they gave back to you and you will see a connection. Try not to look at your test through rose coloured glasses, thinking you are the best and doing it all perfectly is not going to help you improve.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

I agree with Kayty and Spyder. The judge may have even been a bit generous with that score. The horse's head was wagging the whole time (not helped by his markings, makes him more noticeable though they are beautiful) and the test itself was just ok. 

When my mare did her first HT in 2008, we got a 39 on our test. Did I think we deserved a better score? Hell yes. But I didn't go complain about it because the horse had improved by miles since our last show. 

Just focus on improving your horse, not what score you get. In an eventing world that is now handing out 16.5's at Chattahooche Hills, not all of us can be "up to par".


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

Spyder said:


> The judge made a good call, in fact was a little generous.


Harsh, spyder! How about now telling her how to fix it?


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## dantexeventer (Jul 11, 2009)

Great post, Kayty. EventingisLoveee, please take this as an opportunity for improvement, and don't, as Kayty said, get defensive about it. Heck, I scored a 3 on a halt last year. Yup, a 3, and it was a generous 3. But you know what? I schooled and schooled and rode much better and got an 8 on it next time out. If correct training of your horse means you have to skip a show or two, so be it. Riding sympathetically and correctly is much, much more important than ribbons.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

dont feel bad ! i got a 54 once !! 

i was unable to watch the video, but i think youve gotten some good advice !


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

yes i think you got some good advice! and i agree with thunderhooves, your comment didnt really help her spyder, lol. 

haha a 56 gypsygirl, thats a GOOD bad score! lol i got a 41 once! haha i almost cryed, it was me and my first horses first show. But then all the people at the barn i board at told me their showing stories and they took me out for lunch, haha and losing never felt better XD but i gotbetter and the lowest placing we got lastyear in all the shows was a third (thats overall in the class, not juniors) because the whole winter i practiced practiced practiced.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

ridergirl23 said:


> yes i think you got some good advice! and i agree with thunderhooves, your comment didnt really help her spyder, lol.
> 
> haha a 56 gypsygirl, thats a GOOD bad score! lol i got a 41 once! haha i almost cryed, it was me and my first horses first show. But then all the people at the barn i board at told me their showing stories and they took me out for lunch, haha and losing never felt better XD but i gotbetter and the lowest placing we got lastyear in all the shows was a third (thats overall in the class, not juniors) because the whole winter i practiced practiced practiced.


haha i know, pretty ridiculous !! i was doing training level HT on a fox hunting horse. she was a GREAT jumper, but dressage.... she was screaming most of the test. she also tried to jump out of the arena & then did tempi changes during one of the canter circles...i was sort of surprised we were allowed on xc [which we were double clear on as well as stadium] it was horrible !


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

gypsygirl said:


> haha i know, pretty ridiculous !! i was doing training level HT on a fox hunting horse. she was a GREAT jumper, but dressage.... she was screaming most of the test. she also tried to jump out of the arena & then did tempi changes during one of the canter circles...i was sort of surprised we were allowed on xc [which we were double clear on as well as stadium] it was horrible !


 haha omg lastyear me and my horse literally cantered out of the arena, did a turn on the hindquarters, and cantered back in and continued our test, we were disqualified, but it was pretty great. haha


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I rode a dressage test once where my halt was actually a series of half rears, bounces and creeiping and took us almost to the outside track. The horse was fine once going, but had huge issues with halting and standing still.

I don't WANT to remember what my score was n that test :S


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## bethsone (Feb 22, 2010)

thunderhooves said:


> Harsh, spyder! How about now telling her how to fix it?


agreed!!!


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## EventingIsLovee (Sep 18, 2009)

Haha thanks for all the advice everyone, I appreciate it! I understand what things went wrong now, and I was aware of the head wagging too. My trainer is an awesome one, and we are working on using my aids correctly and getting my horse more forward and on his hind end. I am not so much of a beginner that I don't understand that part! And I wasn't complaining about the score, I just wanted to know what everyone had to say about it, so I could better understand. The comments on the actual test basically only said "more forward," or "more energy." So clearly, those comments didn't help me much. I'll continue to work on his forward motion, but after this last show season with him, I think I may actually be buying my own horse and I'll have to start from the beginning again!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

thunderhooves said:


> Harsh, spyder! How about now telling her how to fix it?



That would be up to her coach to do.

I have judge a few event dressage classes and from what I saw there really wasn't anything spectacular about the test. Transitions were rough in some places. Horse was crooked in others. The horse didn't look relaxed and for a big horse the striding was too much ponyish.

This was a "safe" ridden test and lacked the animation that would have upgraded it to a higher score.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Spyder said:


> That would be up to her coach to do.
> 
> I have judge a few event dressage classes and from what I saw there really wasn't anything spectacular about the test. Transitions were rough in some places. Horse was crooked in others. *The horse didn't look relaxed and for a big horse the striding was too much ponyish.*
> 
> This was a "safe" ridden test and lacked the animation that would have upgraded it to a higher score.


So if horse is short and can't do the big strides, Will THAT lower down the score?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

EventingIsLovee said:


> The comments on the actual test basically only said "more forward," or "more energy." So clearly, those comments didn't help me much.


Oh, but they do. That is exactly what people here are telling you. You need more impulsion from behind. 

Congrats on doing better than you had in the past. That alone probably has you very proud of yourself and your horse.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> So if horse is short and can't do the big strides, Will THAT lower down the score?


Yep you'll drop marks in the collectives for movement. However if the horse is tracking up, off the forehand and into the bridle you can still beat a speccy moving horse that is tight and tense  The lower levels, particularly preliminary (think thats training/intro there??) is mainly intended to have the horse straight, forwards and soft in the bridle with a swinging back and carrying itself off the forehand. Where you get stuck with the horses that lack the ****** steps, are the medium to higher levels where movement is a big factor into how the test is judged, and the bigger, looser steps also help in the more advanced movements where a short choppy gait will struggle.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Kayty said:


> Yep you'll drop marks in the collectives for movement. However if the horse is tracking up, off the forehand and into the bridle you can still beat a speccy moving horse that is tight and tense  The lower levels, particularly preliminary (think thats training/intro there??) is mainly intended to have the horse straight, forwards and soft in the bridle with a swinging back and carrying itself off the forehand. Where you get stuck with the horses that lack the ****** steps, are the medium to higher levels where movement is a big factor into how the test is judged, and the bigger, looser steps also help in the more advanced movements where a short choppy gait will struggle.


Thanks for explaining, Kayty! The reason I raised the question I do remember the article in (I believe) AQHA journal about 14'2 or 14'3 qh, which actually went to the higher levels of dressage competitions. Definitely something out of ordinary. I'd think that particular horse should have small strides with the height like this but still managed to get pretty high.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Kayty said:


> Where you get stuck with the horses that lack the ****** steps, are the medium to higher levels where movement is a big factor into how the test is judged, and the bigger, looser steps also help in the more advanced movements where a short choppy gait will struggle.


Actually I disagree (but not on the short CHOPPY gait).

At the lower levels where there is little to judge on, the bigger moving horses have a clear advantage.

At the higher levels it is the suspension and lightness of the movement that is paramount. In fact striding that is too big is a disadvantage. This is particularly obvious within the piaffe/passage transitions and the canter pirouette.

Take for example the two horses Dynasty and Reipo.

Reipo had extraordinary long sweeping movement.

Dynasty had the more compact movement.

Dynasty beat Reipo every time except once and in the 86 Olympics was the leading horse in the team bronze. Reipo had so many problems in the canter pirouette and the piaffe/passage transitions were difficult for him. The piaffe/passage transitions are also a co efficient of 2 so the loss of points become problematic. Dynasty had them done pat and could collect so well.

In the 86 worlds Dynasty's opening movement from an extended trot to a piaffe with a 360 turn and completed the extended trot was amazing and showed off that horse's best way of going.

BTW....my horse is from the Dynasty lines also and also has that compact body and extremely easy to collect.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

It's all been covered.
I agree with Spyder, the judge was generous. For every movement your horse's head is wagging around like a happy dog's tail, you lose at least one point.
And then in the collectives you're going to lose a point at least on gaits, lose a point on impulsion, lose a point on submission and lose at least a point on your rider score. If the judge is feeling nice.


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## EventingIsLovee (Sep 18, 2009)

Spyder said:


> The horse didn't look relaxed and for a big horse the striding was too much ponyish.


 He is only 15hh, so he's actually a small horse. He does indeed have a naturally short step, and hopefully, that will get a bit better throughout this show season for him. It is one of the big things we are working on in lessons and during the week, along with trying to get him to rock back on his hind end.


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