# Horse Hoarding.



## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

After reading this and other forums for several years, I think I'm seeing a trend in horse hoarding.

Years ago, those of us who wanted a horse, usually saved for quite a while, took an extra job or even more than one extra job, to purchase the horse we had desired for a long time. Then came the excitement of purchasing all those necessary items our horse needed to be comfortable. No internet, so we purchased many books and subscribed to the appropriate magazines for the breed we had chosen. We joined our local breed club and enthisiastically devoured every bit of information we could, from those who went before and were knowledgeable.

With the downfall of the economy, I see things have changed considerably. We constantly see people with little knowledge of horses in general, gathering up every cheap or free horse, they come across. Little or no thought to just how expensive each horse might be, to feed and keep healthy. Just throw the new one out in that meagre pasture with the others. Who cares if they have already been half starved in their previous home. They are in a pasture now and have new friends. Who cares if none of the colts or mature horses are gelded. Who cares if none of them are registered. Who cares if any of them are even close to breeding quality. it might be fun to raise a few babies anyway. 

And besides, several of them were free, so I could probably make money by selling some foals. Oh, and even better, some of the free mares, were already in foal. What fun! Of course, I know nothing about foaling, but most mares do ok by themselves - don't they? And of course, it will be huge fun to show pics of the new babies on the net and ask others what breed they think the babies are. 

Now don't get me wrong here. I'm all for rescue. I'm all for trying to rehab a horse who has fallen on hard times. But that takes thought, a lot of work and usually, quite a lot of money. 

Maybe I'm rambling a bit here, but I constantly see people with little or no knowledge of horses, who have gathered several free or nearly free horses and are (of course often) thinking of breeding. I think our economy has rather added to the hoarders out there. It seems incredibly easy to get a horse these days. It is rather like seeing the cute puppy in the pet shop window and buying it, with absolutely no thought to the breed, how it was bred, knowing nothing about bring up a pup and not even having anything prepared at home. It is always the animals who suffer in the end, when anyone takes home an animal, on a whim. 

Lizzie


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## Misty'sGirl (Oct 22, 2007)

And these people are usually the ones who don't realise horses need their teeth floated, hooves trimmed, worming, vaccinations, etc. 

I know a girl with a gelding who, I kid you not, asked me "What is a sheath?" when I asked when she'd last cleaned his sheath (he was stretching at a weird angle when he urinated). When I explained it she actually laughed and said "no way am I ever doing that!" Poor boy 

Someone else I (unfortunately) know is convinced that horses do NOT need their teeth floated if they're fed hay, because the hay wears down sharp edges naturally... Hmm...


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## Becca93 (Jan 22, 2009)

I agree with you! There are way too many people, and it seems to be growing, who don't really grasp what is needed to own a horse, and do it properly.

I would love a horse - but know that I'm not knowledgeable enough, nor can I afford to buy and look after a horse like it deserves. Instead I'm taking lessons, and hopefully once I've finished uni/my fiance has finished his apprenticeship I will get my first horse.

You can't buy a few books, watch a few videos on youtube and read some posts/articles on the internet and be knowledgeable on horses - let alone training or breeding them!


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

This is not a new situation, but it has become more obvious since we see it on the internet. When an unqualified person had a horse before, the only ones who knew were the people who drove by his house. 

Nancy


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Becca93 said:


> I agree with you! There are way too many people, and it seems to be growing, who don't really grasp what is needed to own a horse, and do it properly.
> 
> You can't buy a few books, watch a few videos on youtube and read some posts/articles on the internet and be knowledgeable on horses - let alone training or breeding them!


This pretty much describes me 7 years ago. My wife wanted to just go look at a horse for sale. She couldn't believe it was so cheap. I finally agreed knowing when I said yes to JUST go look, we would be owning a horse. Niether of us knew a thing about horses. I found a stable to take him since he was still a stallion and that's where we got our second, she was being given to us if we took care of the needed vet bills. 

Seven years later, we now have 10. So one could say we are hoarders. We think of ourselves as animal lovers. Besides the horses, we have 6 dogs and 5 cats, hence the name usandpets (us and pets). 

Copper was $400. Lucy was free but vet bills ended up being around $1500. Ghost was $75. Sheba was $800. We wouldn't have bought Harley except we loan a fried money to get him out of a bad barn. Then he decided to sell him and we were sceptic of getting our money back. We paid $3300 for him which was way too much. Chloe was for $400, again helping out a different friend. Jackson was bought for $60 at an auction raising money to fight cancer. Star was bought for $1, basically given to us but paid that to make it an actual sale. He was being sold for $2200 but didn't get any takers because he bucked a few people off. We knew the trainer selling him and she knew he would be well cared for. The last two were rescues set up by the same trainer. One does happen to be pregnant possibly due in about a month. 

Like I said we had no horse knowledge at first. I did get books and magazines, watched YouTube, and watched shows on RFDTV. I did ask a trainer for help only twice that I can remember. I have already started two horses on my own with no help. I have trained other people's horses to fix problems. 

I do agree that for the general public, you can't learn what you need to know by reading books and watching videos. BUT, it is possible for some. I have been told that I'm a natural with horses, so maybe that's why it worked for me. I won't say I know it all because I don't think anyone could. There's always more to learn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Becca93 (Jan 22, 2009)

usandpets said:


> This pretty much describes me 7 years ago. My wife wanted to just go look at a horse for sale. She couldn't believe it was so cheap. I finally agreed knowing when I said yes to JUST go look, we would be owning a horse. Niether of us knew a thing about horses. I found a stable to take him since he was still a stallion and that's where we got our second, she was being given to us if we took care of the needed vet bills.
> 
> Seven years later, we now have 10. So one could say we are hoarders. We think of ourselves as animal lovers. Besides the horses, we have 6 dogs and 5 cats, hence the name usandpets (us and pets).
> 
> ...


I think you would be called the exception to the rule  - and there are people out there who are successful like that. However I think you will agree that there is a much higher percentage of people who get is wrong, sometimes tragically wrong,


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Oh I definitely think more people with little knowledge are getting horses.....ironically, in so many cases, they actually think they are "rescuing" them.....since they think that none should go to slaughter. Since the market is what it is right now, there are just so many "free"/cheap ones out there to "rescue".


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

I think there are different categories of hoarders....there's also the breeder hoarder.....it's like a lucky dip, lets breed X with X and let's see what we get and oh that didn't work so let's try again and so forth.....and usually these baby's end up being breeding stock too and never leave the property and are very seldom handled or worked with......yup, man playing mad scientist...


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## wetrain17 (May 25, 2011)

usandpets said:


> This pretty much describes me 7 years ago. My wife wanted to just go look at a horse for sale. She couldn't believe it was so cheap. I finally agreed knowing when I said yes to JUST go look, we would be owning a horse. Niether of us knew a thing about horses. I found a stable to take him since he was still a stallion and that's where we got our second, she was being given to us if we took care of the needed vet bills.
> 
> Seven years later, we now have 10. So one could say we are hoarders. We think of ourselves as animal lovers. Besides the horses, we have 6 dogs and 5 cats, hence the name usandpets (us and pets).
> 
> ...


 
I think there is a big difference between those who do this just to have a horse and those who truly want to learn. You took the initiative and educated yourself; where as others, assume they know what they're doing. After all, they can take care of a dog/cat, so a horse can't be that much harder. These are the same people who, no matter how hard you try, you can't not tell them what they are doing is either wrong or dangerous.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Unless you're willing to go buy up all the "unwanted" horses yourself and take proper care of them .. 

All I can do is take the best possible care of the horses that I own and use whatever opportunity I have to educate -- without being preachy or condescending -- those who will listen.

At the end of the day I have to realize that not everyone looks at things the way I do and unless it's a life or death situation or the opportunity arises to educate, it's none of my business.

I have several horses in this area that I "watch" .. if they reach a point where the authorities "might" do something, I'll call ..


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I have know of a disturbing case of horse hoarding in my area. I will post the details of it later, pain typing on a mobile.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I don't think it's any more prevalent than it's been in the past, we just have more and better ways of sharing global information now. The advent of the Internet Age has made the sharing of information pretty much instantaneous, unlike previous generations.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

usandpets said:


> L*ike I said we had no horse knowledge at first. I did get books and magazines, watched YouTube, and watched shows on RFDTV.* I did ask a trainer for help only twice that I can remembe
> 
> I do agree that for the general public, you can't learn what you need to know by reading books and watching videos. BUT, it is possible for some. I have been told that I'm a natural with horses, so maybe that's why it worked for me. I won't say I know it all because I don't think anyone could. There's always more to learn.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is somewhat my story as well...though I'm not as advanced as Usandpets!!!!

I come from an hoarding family, so I know the ugly face of hoarding. Like Usandpets, I have a few dogs and eight cats...and after less than two years of horses, I have five.

There is a fine line though, that I won't cross. I know when I'm at MAX CAPACITY. Even if I saw a cat or a horse dying in front of me, I could not take it in right now, even if I had to sit on my hands. =( Hoarding, even if done under good intentions, does no one any good, least of all the animals! Trust me...I've seen it.

As for horses, I paid only 400 for my baby girl, a weanling filly. I knew next to nothing about horses, though I'd had plenty of other animals, enough to know that once I got the gist of the body language, I'd be ok for the rest of the ride. I took her to an awesome boarding facility with a BO who was willing to HELP ME LEARN. Then I set about reading everything I could, from books to the forums...I settled on this forum mostly, because of the extremely unpleasant reaction I got from the first. I took that unhandled weanling, and I think I did well enough...she is currently getting some training at the CA boarding facility, and I am told that she is a very sweet horse.

My second horse(s) were a rescue through another board member. They came from a facility overrun with Shetlands, just thrown all together...I got a feral mare and her colt. Now, less than a year later, that mare may not be the easiest to handle (she trusts mostly me, she'll play her "I'm scared!" game to any who will accept it...), but she actually looks for me, will poke her head out of the fence at me, I can touch her without her bolting, she stands for the farrier for at least the front feet, her teeth have been floated...this from the gibbering mess that slammed herself into the stall walls/waterer and would shake if you touched her. 

I've taken on two others, one that I can actually ride (I'm still learning that too!!!), and one I may sell on after he grows to a normal size from the serious stunting he got at his breeder's "facility".

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying, and I guess what UsandPets was saying, is that not all of the noobie rescues goes badly, and I think most of it is attitude and a willingness to learn. I wish that the other forum members had been more accepting of me and how I was going about things in such a backwards way...but after reading a few threads, I kind of get why they were in arms LOL. Even still, the exclusionary attitude that some horse-people have is NOT helping any new people delve into horse ownership.


Also, just saying, DON'T UNDERESTIMATE the power of READING BOOKS and watching those videos for a person with some small amount of common sense and animal handling experience! As long as that person also has a real life resource to clear up any points of confusion, books and videos CAN indeed help someone learn how to *care* for horses.


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## xlionesss (Jan 30, 2012)

I definitely was no expert when I bought my first horse in February. I knew about horses and their care due to riding for eight years and working at barns for 2, but I was by no means proficient! I've learned A LOT since February just by getting more hands-on experience with my own...


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Also, just saying, DON'T UNDERESTIMATE the power of READING BOOKS and watching those videos for a person with some small amount of common sense and animal handling experience! As long as that person also has a real life resource to clear up any points of confusion, books and videos CAN indeed help someone learn how to *care* for horses. 


Absolutely! I am a lot older than most of you here. Years ago, books were _all_ we had. That and magazines. Learning anything was quite a bit more difficult. I remember training my first horse, with a book open on a bench, outside the stable. It was difficult and took committment, to own/show/breed or do anything with horses. Nothing came easily. I bet I wrote thousands of letters, just to trace pedigrees. 

And I don't think it has always been like this. Years ago, people earned a lot less than they do these days, yet the average horse cost quite a bit. To purchase a decent horse in those days, cost me about the same as it would have done now. There were fewer rescues and fewer animals in rescue. Fewer breeders in fact. 

In the 1960's for example, I had and was showing/breeding Great Danes. There were only three of us, ALL across the US, who were doing rescue in the breed. Even at that, we seldom got any dogs to rescue and rehome. Now, there are several Great Dane rescues in almost every city and town in the US, and they are overflowing. It has been the same with most breeds of dogs and horses. 

Certainly when times were good, many probably purchased or bred more animals than they should have. When the economy fell into the toilet, prices dropped and we saw more and more animals, suffering from lack of food, rescues unable to take more in and more horses than I ever remember, being given away or dumped into iffy auctions. And this I think, is where we have seen many with good intentions, taking in more animals than they can really look after reasonably. And in a way, I really do understand it. It takes a stout heart and self control, not to take in every free or very cheap horse, we are offered. It takes self control NOT to breed, when we have perfectly nice horses. These days, it becomes very easy to get in way over our heads, with so many horses around, needing homes and for extremely reasonable cost or free. 

Lizzie


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I think hoarding is not any more common now then it was, its just more visible. Horses are cheap in the USA and that helps or hurts. That said, sometimes the definition of hoarder is a lot looser for some than for others. Hoarding to me is similar to OCD where they HAVE to have it and can not afford it. I think there is a financial aspect to it. No one really has a problem if you have a ton of horses and can afford to care for them. 

To me its not lack of knowledge but lack of funds and at times a willingness to allow animals to suffer. If you have two horses but can't care for either one properly (talking basics food, water, shelter, vaccines), than you are a hoarder you can have 20 horses and be caring for all of them and not be a hoarder. People can learn to care for a horse but you can't magically pull money out of thin are (if you can we should talk) and horses take money.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I dont know that I am comfortable labeling anyone a hoarder or backyard breeder.
I think that a hoarder is probably emotionally fragile or unstable.. I see it as an illness not a character flaw. Using the term hoarder IMO is dismissing the underlying problem that can probably be treated. It also highlights the ignorance most of us have about mental illness.
I do think with the advent of the internet, which by the way I am still stuck in the 20th century, a lot of people are reaching out and becoming more aware of the abuse and neglect of animals. That imo is a great thing. Shalom


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think a lot of these people see something cheap or free and just have to have it regardless, I do think there is some element of mental problem involved with some of them but for others its just a 'must have' sort of greed with no thought for how they're going to care for it and - don't get me wrong here because its lovely if unwanted horses can be homed - but a lot of these people are buying horses that have huge health or behavioral issues and they don't have the bank balance or the knowledge to deal with
It has been a growing problem for a long time but is getting worse as horse prices sink.
One thing that I do see is that when I was a child if you wanted a pony (and didn't come from a horsey family) you learnt to ride at a riding school and spent time there helping out to learn how to do the basics first and then got someone to help select a good animal that would work well and kindly for you
Nowadays the trend is to just rush out and buy any green thing they can find and at best muddle along 
No wonder people like Parelli are laughing all the way to the bank.


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## redandrae420 (Jun 12, 2013)

i agree


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

IMO it's the people breeding all these extra horses that are to blame here.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> I dont know that I am comfortable labeling anyone a hoarder or backyard breeder.
> I think that a hoarder is probably emotionally fragile or unstable.. I see it as an illness not a character flaw. Using the term hoarder IMO is dismissing the underlying problem that can probably be treated. It also highlights the ignorance most of us have about mental illness.
> I do think with the advent of the internet, which by the way I am still stuck in the 20th century, a lot of people are reaching out and becoming more aware of the abuse and neglect of animals. That imo is a great thing. Shalom


I'm definitely comfortable labeling someone as a hoarder.....there is someone in my life who is a hoarder, she has managed to fill 6000sq/ft of space with all manner of junk, it's all organized and tidy, it covers the stairs, you can't enter rooms.......when the family comes to stay....they all (sometimes 10 people) stay with me in my three bedroom house...because this woman (and her husband) in a matter of five years have managed to fill every single bedroom in that house with gum wrappers, newspapers, cereal boxes etc.......this hoarding issue is one of the most selfish things people can do. Her grandchildren don't see her because she is too busy clipping coupons and buying junk at thrift stores while pleading poverty.....there is thousands and thousands of dollars worth of stuff in that house....this has been a very big bone of contention amongst family members and has nearly driven people to divorce. 

Hoarding is a very very SELFISH condition. 

From experience........


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

I don't like using the term hoarder in a thread like this- these people aren't hoarders (for the most part) so much as they are ignorant bleeding hearts. As has been said before, these people think they're doing these horses a favour by 'rescuing' them, but they're ignorant and don't realize they're doing more harm than good. In many cases if someone were to approach them and give them the information they needed I do think you would see a change in their behaviour. There is, imo, a difference between that and 'hoarding'. I DO know a 'family' (although it is just one member of the family) who I (from what I know, maybe DB can give some input here) would classify as hoarders. The number of horses they own is in the twenties (or more) all mares are bred, even if it means sneaking them in with their studs. Horses are bought to be 'resold' but they cannot bring themselves to let go of them, so they are put to pasture and another is brought to 'rehome' to continue the cycle. Hay will be bought before the necessities for their children, but even then they get the bare minimum, horses have died in the pasture and not been discovered for weeks or months. People have kept their horses at the farm, and not been able to get them back.

These are well educated horse people, and that is what I would call animal hoarding. They do the same with dogs, the number of dogs on their property is in the double digits, and while I have never been in their house I do suspect it's a similar situation inside. THAT is what I would call 'hoarding'.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Okay, at a proper computer keyboard now, I can relate the horse hoarding I know of personally. About 30 years, this lady was young, successful in AQHA showing & training, and had champion horses, and was making big bucks training, breeding & selling Quarter Horses. She and another lady decided to go into business together & bought an equestrian center up north from the lower mainland where land prices are much cheaper. Then horses prices fell, quite a bit, she kept her top dollar price tags and kept breeding, the equestrian centre needed a new well, new roof and major repair to the house on the property. Her business partner & her had a major falling out & left. Between that time and to about 15 years ago, I don't know what took place but I heard rumors here & there. The lady, I will call her T, took a job at the same place I work, great, I knew her from shows & I got along with her. 
She knew my daughter was looking for a new horse, so she invited us out to her place to look at some horses of hers that she said would be suitable. After the ranch tour, I almost vomited. She had 6 stallions (former showhorses) in stalls with hugely overgrown hooves that she said had not been outside in over 10 years, she exercised them daily in the indoor arena (only longe, she doesn't ride anymore because she has a bad back), at least she said she did. She had about 10 two year old uncut colts in a rickety corral that wouldn't hold an old decrepid nag, never mind a herd of colts, which looked like unthrifty, wormy yearlings. All the fencing was falling down, or had fell down in individual paddocks, her pasture, which was her main herd's saving grace is about 75 acres with a creek, she ran about 30 mares & a few geldings on that land. All the pasture horses looked like they self trimmed their own hooves and were quite fat as the grass was quite lush at that time, most weren't ever halter trained. She grabbed one gelding from the herd, a 9 yr old, and said he was the horse for my daughter, greenbroke, huge ugly scar on his leg, but he was a nice looking horse, she wants $5000 for this horse because he was out of this champion or that champion or some bloodline, I forget. My daughter said as she was interested in showing, she really didn't want such a scarred up horse but she pointed to a shiny mare in the herd & said "She is pretty, has she been handled at all?" T replied, "No not yet, I want $10,000 for her, you can't replace her bloodlines"....or some such nonsense as that. She took us up to her barn appartment above the indoor arena (the house on the property was condemned & 1/2 torn down) to show us the papers on some horse, when we walked in I almost fainted, she was a hoarder!!! Filthy, clutter, cats, dogs, one eyed cats, one eyed dogs, feces, urine, I had to get out of there, now! We made our excuses & got the hell out of Dodge never to return again, my daughter was so mad at me for subjecting her to that.
We still worked at the same place together and winter came around, her water froze, I asked her how she was watering the horses, she said she hauled water out to them in her truck. I doubt that, she was the laziest thing going, around work, her clothes stunk, her hair was greasy. Since I was her boss, I told her to go have a shower before work (I work at a hotel with a pool, she can shower in the pool changing rooms), and make sure her clothes for work are washed by housekeeping and stay here and don't take them home. She agreed and complied. Somehow, she found a few people to board at her place, but one boarder came to talk to her while I was working and was mad, said their horses had no water and stalls hadn't been cleaned since they did it. She lost her boarders. Someone casually asked her about riding lessons as she used to teach, she quoted them a rate of $75 per session, using their own horse! Sorry, but you couldn't pay me $75 to go to her place again, never mind ride there! 
Spring rolls around again, of course those ungelded colts all broke out & were breeding the mares, and she had no idea what was in foal or not. Her neighbor who I casually know, helped her bury a mare that laid down between two trees to foal & died. The coyotes were eating the foal that was half out of the dead mare! Then she tells me her mother is eating dogfood to pay the morgage on her place and she has no life outside her job & chores because every penny she has is spent on the horses, she said she makes great sacrifices for them. That was about all I could handle, I finally had to say something. I called her a selfish b*tch, and told her to call the SPCA to give all those horses away and sell her property and stay away from horses. NO, her horses were worth hundreds of thousands of dollars with irreplaceable bloodlines! I told her GOOD, THEN SELL SOME SO YOUR MOTHER CAN STOP EATING DOGFOOD! She was insulted (whatever!) and said she was going to get her brother to buy half interest in the equestrian centre. 
Shortly after that, she got fired so I haven't seen her since but her neighbor keeps us informed. The SPCA seized 10 stallions from her barn, so I guess she added 4 more to the 6 I saw. The horses in the pasture were left. She lets people take the obviously pregnant mares, or mares with foals, and keep them until the foals are weaned, they keep the foals & give the mares back to her. Most of the those mare are emaciated when they arrive but are returned back to her in good flesh, so she figured out how to circumvent some problems. There is an old talkative farmer that delivers her roundbales that told me a story about her. He said all her horses are pretty skinny during the winter & they have no water, the creek is frozen so they eat snow and he doesn't put the roundbales out in the pasture, she wants them dumped outside the fence, she pitchforks off of it to them. He said there is no way that little amount of hay he sells her is anywhere near enough for all the horses she has. He saw a little skin & bones filly shivering off to the side and out of pity he asked her if she was for sale. Yes, but of course this filly has rare, irreplaceable bloodlines and $3000 is the price. He told me he laughed & said to her "That's for all the horses and the property too, right?"
So there's my experience with a horse hoarder and it still makes me ill thinking about it.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Wares - that is an example of just how selfish and self serving hoarding is....sad story Thanks for sharing.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Anyone that keeps more animals than they have the time, money, and energy to take care of is a hoarder. I have seen it with dogs, cats, goats, horses, birds, and combinations of all of these. They have animals in filthy, half starved conditions. 

On the other hand, I remember going to a lovely cattle farm. The owner enjoyed owning a lot of birds. He had an ostrich, peafowl, chickens, ducks, geese, guineas, and I am not sure what all else. There were several hundred birds. The place was really clean and all the birds were well fed and in good condition and appeared to be happy. He knew the history and lineage of each bird and took great pride in showing them off. This is not what I consider hoarding. 

To me, you could be a pet hoarder if you only had 3 pets. Hoarding is having more pets than you can take care of.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Hoarding can be a sign of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder or a number of other mental health issues. Extremely low self esteem for one.
Like i said their is usually a mental disorder that underlies the behavior. Treat the disorder and the behavior can be modified.
slapping a label on someone does not change or address the condition that precludes the action. 
A reasonable person would never place themselves or their animals in such a stressed enviroment without asking for help. Healthy well adjusted inviduals do not do this. Shalom


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

You can't be healthy & well adjusted living in animal urine & feces. You will get sick, physically & in the head.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

We are a society of labels and its how we identify things - including problems like hoarding. Yes - there can be underlying causes and mental illness involved, but it is still hoarding. Since most of us are not professional psychiatrist - it is not our job to change, address, or treat the issue. However, since we DO have the label of hoarder and most of society understands a similar definition of it - we can use the term to describe situations plaguing our country and if its effecting a friend/family member - identify the symptom and either confront or try to get them help if possible. 

I think part of the problem in this day and age is everyone wants to be PC and not step on any toes.


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## JaphyJaphy (Nov 15, 2012)

I see it a lot in less extreme cases than the one wares has described. Recently, I was offered a wild yearling filly who had been rounded up with the rest of her herd and auctioned off by the government. For some reason, this filly had been separated from the rest of her herd and was being "sold" privately. The woman who offered her to me said she'd give her to me for free since she knew I'd provide a good home. 

I agreed to go look at the filly, but before I did a neighbor called me up and says she saw the filly advertised and asked if I was still planning to go take a look at her. I said yes, and the neighbor kept mentioning her interest in the filly (and seemed to be fishing for something...) so I told her I wouldn't be offended if she went to look at her and decided to take her before I had seen her. The next day, the filly had been moved to her place. Literally a week later, I overheard the neighbor saying that she needed to go out of town with her mom because she didn't have enough money to pay for her own groceries if she stayed home alone. That being said, her animals always seem reasonably well cared for, thank goodness!


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

I will admit that when we bought Clementine and Levi - I had absolutely NO horse experience. Didn't know how to pick a hoof, how to tack up. We leased first, for a month, before buying. I am VERY glad that she was kept at the stable, getting food and water and whatnot, because I didn't know ANYTHING.

In the next week I spent HOURS looking up every single thing I could about horses. Days, even. All of my spare time went to looking things up, renting library books. I know impulsively buying animals is stupid, and I was bound to NOT be that person hwo neglects their animal because of it. I soaked up everything I could. There is SO MUCH to know. I had to learn everything - that they needed their hooves trimmed often, their teeth floated, their sheath cleaned, to be wormed, vaccinated in spring, that they are generally walking accidents waiting to happen. 

I had to learn how to own a horse. How to train, how to ride. Everything. All by myself. (Okay, I took two lessons from a 17 year old girl. lol). Horse behavior, horse health. Signs of wellness and sickness. The delicate issue of respect between horse and rider.

You know what? I'm STILL learning. I learn new things often - thank god for this forum. Horses are SO MUCH more work than anybody would expect. More than I ever expected. I DID go into it thinking, oh how nice it'll be to have a horse to ride. I got on her the first time and was so happy that she was a good broke horse (HAHAHA.... yeah, not really). I hate that I went into this so blind, and I don't recommend it for anybody - and I'll be the first to sell her if I ever can't take care of her or afford her - we already sold Levi.

This is the problem. People who do what I did, and DON'T bother to look things up. People who go into it with the "a nice pony to ride" mentality and just kind of wing it. And then, because the horse doesn't die, they get another because the first one is still alive and kicking and seemingly well. And maybe another. And then, after everything starts piling up - horses going lame because their hooves are shot, horses losing weight because their teeth are tearing sores in their mouths, horses so bloated with worms that they aren't getting any nutrition - then they decide to try to hide it. Quick fixes, or breed them to sell the foals to get the money to keep them. Deny that it's that big of a deal because LOOK, they're still walking around! 

Then there are the people who just buy them and breed them to make a 'quick buck' without any care for the horses at all. People suck - there will ALWAYS be those people. And I almost think that the reason it's so prevalent now is not necessarily because it's more common (though I'm sure it is to an extent, just look at how many free horses you can get on Craigslist) but you hear about it more. Social media makes it easy for stories like that to blow up instead of remaining hidden in someone's backyard.

It's always happened, and it always will. The only thing we can do is to NOT contribute to the problem, and call the ASPCA when necessary.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

People who are hoarders in the true sense of the word need treatment not condemnation.
Now I am not trying to enforce some idea of being politically correct. I am though trying to give some insight into the problem.
For the most part these are not evil people. They do however need treatment and understanding without those two things this problem will only grow.
yes it is horrible for the animals and humans involved.
Any discussion of the problem without all the facts is pointless. Shalom


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> People who are hoarders in the true sense of the word need treatment not condemnation.
> Now I am not trying to enforce some idea of being politically correct. I am though trying to give some insight into the problem.
> For the most part these are not evil people. They do however need treatment and understanding without those two things this problem will only grow.
> yes it is horrible for the animals and humans involved.
> Any discussion of the problem without all the facts is pointless. Shalom


Yes, animal hoarders are different from the people who just collect horses (or whatever animal) for some ulterior motive and completely neglect their animals. I do think hoarders need help, but I don't think OP was really talking about 'hoarders' in the true sense of the word. A hoarder feels like they are truly helping save the world, one animal at a time, often to the detriment of themselves.

Of course, OP, do correct me if I'm wrong.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I am a mental health professional I make no apologies for that. I dont think the OP was doing anything but starting a conversation. a much needed and very interesting one. i am not trying to argue just giving my two cents worth.
All horse owners need to recognize and try to intervene if they suspect neglect or unhealthy conditions.
We all suffer from the publicity hoarders receive on the evening news. Especially those of us who own more than a few horses.
i have been called a hoarder because I have purchased or taken in abused or neglected animals to either end their suffering or rehabilitate and find a more suitable home for them..
Called one in fact by the two people I refused to sell a horse to. Shalom


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Correct me if I am wrong Donald, but I think hoarders of 'stuff/things' are different from hoarders of animals.

The 'stuff' collectors, fill up their homes, shed, property etc., with things they never use and often never see it again, as it adds to the piles. It makes them feel secure maybe. Protects them in a way, from the outside world.

With animal hoarders, I think there is a different mind-set. The hoarder truly thinks he/she is saving animals. Saving from a worse fate than they offer. Thinking nobody else can or will, look after them as they do - even though in most cases, the animals are living in less than desirable conditions and would be better off in another home. Long after things are out of control, they still take in more animals and even allow their supposed rescues, to breed indiscriminately. 

In both cases, it certainly becomes a sickness, even though it might have started quite innocently. By what I've seen, it is not particularly sex related either. Both men and women seem similarly affected.

Lizzie


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> *People who are hoarders in the true sense of the word need treatment not condemnation.*
> Now I am not trying to enforce some idea of being politically correct. I am though trying to give some insight into the problem.
> For the most part these are not evil people. *They do however need treatment and understanding without those two things this problem will only grow.*
> yes it is horrible for the animals and humans involved.
> Any discussion of the problem without all the facts is pointless. Shalom


I know that you are a mental health professional, but being raised by two people with various MH conditions, I have my own possibly skewed perspective.

Do they need help? Certainly. Will they go get it? In at least my experience, *MOST OF THE TIME, NO.* 

And that is the problem. You have to be willing at some point to get help. We can't do it for them. 

Guess what? You can't get someone treatment if they refuse it, unless they're a danger to themselves or others. Do I have that right? So my mom takes care of my crazy aunt, who is "fine' to live outside,* until she stops taking her meds*, then as far as I know, she has to be periodically put right back in the hospital, whether it is the Balboa Navy hospital or wherever else she goes. And my mom, no saint herself, isn't privvy to all of the info because my aunt is an adult. Last I heard, she was trying to be put as a caretaker of my aunt...she fullfulls that position anyway, but just doesn't get paid for it.

Guess what? That woman made my childhood/young adulthood a LIVING HELL. Do I have a certain sympathy that chemicals in her head made her do mean, hateful things to a kid? Yes. Do I have certain sympathy that she can't always control what she does, and thinks people are spying on her? Sure...but somewhere in there, at some point there had to have been the thought "hm, maybe this is messed up". I mean, who has like four dogs, god knows how many cats, six guinea pigs, turtles, rats and god knows that else in a one bedroom condo, all windows sealed, blankets over those and tacked shut so the neighbors "can't see in" and thinks that is normal? Do you have any idea what that smells like? I mean, how many times do you allow your niece/sister or whoever step in dog crap in the bathroom hallway because you think it's ok for your pitbull to go indoors like a yorkie, but you're too lazy (and yes, it was lazy) to clean it up? (Oh yeah, dogs weren't allowed outside either....the neighbors might see them...X_X).

At SOME point there was a little voice, or a loud voice that said, this isn't right. 

How many times do the animals get taken away before the hoarder thinks "maybe I'm wrong?"...but it's always someone else's fault right? The neighbor, the evil jerk who called animal control or whatever. 

So yeah, maybe I'm biased, but I feel more for the animal, who has no say in the circumstances...of that lady Ware mentioned, the one I "bought" Strider from, and even my messed up Family. They may have started with good intentions, but it unraveled...and every time someone suggests a solution it's shot down repeatedly. 

I give everyone a chance, and I tried to help my family, but at some point, the humans must choose to help themselves--we can't do it for them!...and my sympathy lies with those who *cannot* change their situation--the animal.

/rant and Sorry if I take it a bit personally. =/

ETS: just to make it clear, the house was also filled with books and other items "in case the world goes Blooey", aka "when the rapture occurs". So think piles of books taller than my head, stashes of bathing items that will never get used, peed on clothes etc. I have pictures of the stove, aka, the litterbox somewhere, as well as the conditions the turtles were kept in...every few years when I forget I took those pics, I go through stuff to scan for FB or whatever and they surprise me =/ UGH

now end rant ..again...


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

demonwolfmoon said:


> I know that you are a mental health professional, but being raised by two people with various MH conditions, I have my own possibly skewed perspective.
> 
> Do they need help? Certainly. Will they go get it? In at least my experience, *MOST OF THE TIME, NO.*
> 
> ...


Agree agree agree......and unfortunately for myself and some immediate family members we are being left with the inanimate object 'hoard' (junk) when these people pass on.....because they don't want help when its offered, don't ask for help when its needed and don't seek help when they cannot enter a room and you sure as hell don't mention the 100 telephone books from 1970-2010 down in the basement. 

That's all I have to say about hoarders and the way they affect other people and animals.......

People should collect memories......not stuff.


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

Muppetgirl said:


> Agree agree agree......and unfortunately for myself and some immediate family members we are being left with the inanimate object 'hoard' (junk) when these people pass on.....because they don't want help when its offered, don't ask for help when its needed and don't seek help when they cannot enter a room and you sure as hell don't mention the 100 telephone books from 1970-2010 down in the basement.
> 
> That's all I have to say about hoarders and the way they affect other people and animals.......
> 
> People should collect memories......not stuff.


The problem for these people so often - My grandmother was one - is that stuff IS memories. At least in the sense of object hoarding.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

Celeste said:


> Anyone that keeps more animals than they have the time, money, and energy to take care of is a hoarder. I have seen it with dogs, cats, goats, horses, birds, and combinations of all of these.
> 
> To me, you could be a pet hoarder if you only had 3 pets. Hoarding is having more pets than you can take care of.


Agreed. Some folks have the time, money, and resources for 6 horses, 5 dogs, and 12 cats on their property and everyone gets the care that they need. Most people would be overwhelmed by that amount, but some people can't handle caring for two cats. Either way, the results are the same for the animals regardless of how many are stuck in the unfortunate situation. 

My barn manager isn't an animal hoarder, but she is a good example of not knowing how much is too much. She is always complaining about the amount of work she has to do around the barn every day and how she barely makes enough money to make the job worth it (she has another job at another barn during the day as well). Out of the 16 occupied stalls in the barn, however, 6 of them are hers or her sister's and bring in no money. I think each of them also have at least a couple of horses at their own houses. She almost never finds the time or inclination to ride any of these horses, so just lets people around the barn ride them. One of them is her elderly QH gelding who would never be sold, and the rest are various giveaways or rescues. One was a horse that my friend got that didn't work out (a bucker), so she took him in. Another was one that the barn owner tried for his daughter and didn't work out, but the barn manager felt sorry for him and took him. Then there's the OTTB that I've been riding, and his owners were just trying to find someone to give him away to so he would have a good home. One's a usually lame guy whose history I don't know, but I think it's a similar situation. The last is actually a very well-trained cutting mare who would be a fantastic riding horse, but she is just sitting around. 

And... these are just the horses in the stalls. There are others out in the pasture that belong to her as well. Then there are a number of boarding horses whose owners do not pay full board for various reasons. She always complains about all of the work that she has to do, barely making enough after buying gas and feed, but never seems to realize that most of the horses out there are either hers or their owners are barely covering their own feed bill. All of her horses definitely receive all of the basic care they need and adequate feed, but things such as shoeing get put off far longer than I would like. Teeth floating rarely happens out there for her horses. While things such as worming and vaccinations are covered, I can't help but wonder what would happen if one of her horses were to have a sudden expensive bill, such as an illness or injury. I admire her concern for the horses in need, but I wish that she would realize that it's in her best interests to downsize her herd to either reduce her workload, or to replace those horses with ones who are actually "earning their keep". 

I do understand that it is completely her decision. Especially this time of year she is well within her rights to complain about things in her life. Everyone does. She's obviously aware that her horses are nothing but a money drain on her, but still feels the need to keep them and they get basic care. Some such as the lame horse and the bucker would likely have nowhere to go but the killers. It just wouldn't be right to send her elderly gelding off to the highest bidder. However, no one can doubt that it would be in her best interests to have fewer horses under her own care. Even if just a couple of them were gone she could find that she has more cash and time to actually ride the remaining horses!


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Lizzie there are different reasons people hoard both animals and items.
I only wish there was a simple solution. Sadly as demonwolf and muppetgirl can testify animals and people in relationships with the hoarder also suffer.
I feel for both of these young women.
They both have a right to be angry and I dont blame them. Not one bit.
Mental health issues are so misunderstood by most that the shame and guilt felt by family members often goes unresolved.
Demonwolf and Muppetgirl I hope each of you continues to recover from the less than joyful childhood you seem to have experienced. I wish both of you only the best.
This has been a very important discussion. One free of hostility and stimulating.
Animal hoarders involve innocent creatures that should have been lived a better healthier life. IMO that contributes to the anger directed at the hoarder. It also adds to the misconceptions about the illness. Shalom


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

This has happened to me in adulthood not childhood....I didn't even know what hoarding was until I helped these people move house and I entered the basement and innocently said 'gee there's lots of stuff' and I nearly got a new ear hole chewed for saying it......I married into it.....my own mother probably owned four cooking pots when I was growing up......the lady that hoards has about 35.......probably more.....it makes me angry that they don't see how it affects others and they seemingly care much more about 'things' than they do others....


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Muppetgirl, you are a likable person, intelligent, passionate, and those avatars inform me that you have a great sense of humor. Those are all great qualities to have. I respect you for them. Shalom Donald


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Muppetgirl, you are a likable person, intelligent, passionate, and those avatars inform me that you have a great sense of humor. Those are all great qualities to have. I respect you for them. Shalom Donald


Thank you.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

Muppetgirl said:


> This has happened to me in adulthood not childhood....I didn't even know what hoarding was until I helped these people move house and I entered the basement and innocently said 'gee there's lots of stuff' and I nearly got a new ear hole chewed for saying it......I married into it.....my own mother probably owned four cooking pots when I was growing up......the lady that hoards has about 35.......probably more....*.it makes me angry that they don't see how it affects others and they seemingly care much more about 'things' than they do others....*


It's true, I think, and in some ways, I guess that's part of the illness. I was treated even more like crap once I learned how to hurt them back....things.

I am not educated in the ways of MH...I have problems of my own, of course. I don't even feel bad about it anymore...I survived, I take medication when needed, I see counselors when needed, and I do what I gotta do to make sure my kids have a better life.

Anyway, the hoarding...I think getting new pets makes them feel better. I got a couple of my cats that way to be honest. I know that (now), and I can resist it because getting an animal that way when you already have all you need is just selfishness. It's not just that though. A hoarder can't just get rid of all their stuff and be better. The compulsion is still there. For animals, as has been said, to "save" them from others, because they'll be treated better. What you can call a self righteous thought...well I can see that as being soothing! Would the person then not think just a little better of themselves, increase their ego? I think there's also more to it than they can't SEE it...maybe depression? In any case, it's super complicated. 

I just wish there was a better way to treat it...the brain is a very complicated thing.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

No need to thank me. Neither you or demonwolf are defined by what others say or do. Remember that. You too demonwolf. Shalom


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

The barn owner I got Clem from is a good example of just not knowing when is enough. He has some twenty odd (nearing thirty) horses. He usually hires a hand over summer to run day camps with a lot of these. But he's one man, and while they get ridden and groomed as long as day camps go on for some of them, that's all. He doesn't ride. He trims his own hooves and makes all sorts of excuses for why most of them are bordering slipper foot or are all cracked instead of admitting that trimming thirty horses is too much. None get their teeth done. Who knows about worming. If the day camps didn't go on these horses would rot in the pasture. But he keeps them because he can make money from them and just can't admit that it's becoming too much, and more and more makes excuses for the poor condition of some of them. He also boards horses- if he accepts too many more it'll be more than the land can handle. He is selling some, but certainly not trying very hard, and charging too much for them. It's more about the money, I think, and because of it he turns a blind eye to the problems cropping up.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

I've watched 'Hoarders' on TV a few times and I've noticed a few things. 

Those who buy enormous amount of 'things', usually have someone who is footing the bill. For example, I've seen many women on the show, they buy clothese, shoes and purses and anything else which takes their fancy. Most do not work but have a husband who is obviously very unhappy about the situation. However, he has a job and his wife seems to be spending everything on clothes, which she doesn't even take the tags off, let alone wear. What I want to know, is where to find a husband like that? 

I'm joking of course, but there seems to often be someone footing the bill. I get everything I need from thrift shops or second hand and have done since before my daughter was born, so that's over 45 years. 

With the animal hoarders, they seem to be more often, single people and living alone. 

Maybe Donald could address this. 

Lizzie


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

I think there are hoarders and hoarders (either animal or object). Some people hoard stuff because they're just too materially minded to let go of things - they're not mentally ill in a diagnostic sense, they just can't bear the thought of letting go something they paid good money for or is worth (they think) a lot of money. That's called greedyb*starditis.

Then there are other people who hoard as a form of protection - whether it's animals or things. Whatever they're hoarding gives them a sense of belonging, or holds memories, or gives them some form of comfort. Many of these people have either lost something (home/place, a close person etc) and haven't coped with the loss, or they have an intrinsically low sense of self-worth. 

I am an object hoarder. I have become better in recent months but I have a tendency to hoard stuff that I had from a kid, old letters from people, other peoples' (clean) rubbish, newspapers...you name it, I would hoard it. In my last place I was living in a studio flat and the small living space was entirely cluttered with useless, worthless stuff. I think it made me feel safe, like I was barricading myself in. I always had the blinds closed because I felt exposed otherwise, and I rarely ventured out except to go to work or see Brock. I have a number of mental illnesses and one in particular features very low self-esteem. I am lucky I have a partner who has also experienced mental illness in the past - he's encouraged me to buy nice new things for myself rather than collect old broken rubbish, to keep my office tidy so I don't get overwhelmed, and to get out and about a bit. I've stopped hoarding, I can throw things out without even thinking now. I'll always try and fix something first but if it's finished it's finished and belongs in the trash. He's also helping me stop worrying about money so much - I'm always stressing about the bills and rent and he gets me to calm down and not make myself ill over future scenarios that might not happen.

But I can really understand how people can hoard. And demonwolf, I do have quite a bit of sympathy for your aunt as well as for you. I hate seeing what I put my partner through sometimes with my illness, but I only see it when I'm not having an episode, and if I am I just cannot see how what I am doing is wrong - I lose all sense of reality, if at the time I'm even conscious of my actions. Then when I come around, I end up hating myself even more for what I've done, and it just ends up being a vicious cycle of self-loathing and crazy. Mental illness really sucks, for everyone involved.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I could very well be an animal hoarder. When I've watched the shows about it on TV I can relate to a lot of the things they say. Things like no one will love them, take care of them, etc... like I can. The difference being I do take care of mine. 

And while I have more than enough animals, 1 dog, 11 barn cats (all spayed or neutered), and 12 horses, I can't help but drool over and want every cute puppy I see, feeling sorry for and taking in all the cats that get dumped off here, and I occasionally come across an abused or neglected horse that tugs at my heart strings enough that I have to bring it home. Some of the ones that I call my "rescues" have gone on to other homes and some have stayed. 3 of the 12 horses I have now were rescues. 

Every time a new animal comes along and gets taken to my vet I ask him how long before he turns me in for being a hoarder and I get an eye roll and a "you're not there YET". LOL

I also hoard tack. Got enough I could probably stock a tack store but you just never know when I might need it! Now as far as in the house is concerned, forget it, I hate clutter. Doesn't bother me in the least to throw things away. 

So where is that fine line and how long before I cross it?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I will admit to holding onto stuff I call memories like things my kids made at school, little presents they bought me etc, I have some birthday cards sent to me by my grandparents and little things that belonged to them. I also admit to occasionally buying things that I don't need - usually clothes or horse tack or what we call my 'chotchkies'
The difference is in this and with people who do it extremes and those that do it with living animals is that once bought they cost nothing to keep and only the occasional dust over or wash
Caring for animals correctly takes a lot of time, effort and money


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

Animal hoarding is keeping a higher-than-usual number of animals as domestic pets without having the ability to properly house or care for them, while at the same time denying this inability. Compulsive hoarding can be characterized as a symptom of mental disorder rather than deliberate cruelty towards animals. Hoarders are deeply attached to their pets and find it extremely difficult to let the pets go. They typically cannot comprehend that they are harming their pets by failing to provide them with proper care. Hoarders tend to believe that they provide the right amount of care for their pets.[1] The American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals provides a "Hoarding Prevention Team", which works with hoarders to help them attain a manageable and healthy number of pets.




buying a horse without knowledge is not hoarding


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

Characteristics of a hoarder[edit]

An animal hoarder keeps an unusually large number of pets, but fails to care for them properly. A hoarder is distinguished from an animal breeder, who would have a large number of animals as the central component of his or her business; this distinction can be problematic, however, as some hoarders are former breeders who have ceased selling and caring for their animals, while others will claim to be breeders as a psychological defense mechanism, or in hopes of forestalling intervention. Gary Patronek, director of the Center for Animals and Public Policy at Tufts University, defines hoarding as the "pathological human behavior that involves a compulsive need to obtain and control animals, coupled with a failure to recognize their suffering".[3] According to another study, the distinguishing feature is that a hoarder "fails to provide the animals with adequate food, water, sanitation, and veterinary care, and... is in denial about this inability to provide adequate care."[4] Along with other compulsive hoarding behaviours, it is linked in the DSM-IV to obsessive compulsive disorder and obsessive compulsive personality disorder.[5] Alternatively, animal hoarding could be related to addiction, dementia, or even focal delusion.[4]


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I know of a horse breeder that sells extremely high dollar horses. Some of his two year olds bring $10,000. 

I still call him a hoarder. He will take care of his horses for a while, then he will let them get too thin. He rarely gets their feet done; only if they are extremely bad. He never does teeth. He doesn't vaccinate. He does deworm. When he gets a bunch of colts ready to sell, he feeds them up so they look better and then sends them off to a trainer.

He doesn't care about the health, well being, or comfort of the horses. They are just money production machines to him. 

He has gotten in legal trouble over his neglect numerous times. 

I think that he is an alcoholic or maybe on drugs. Or both.


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

Hoarding is one thing, a mental disorder.

What the OP describes in her first post though is not really hoarding to me. That's just ignorance
.
We have a culture of jumping at bargains and free stuff. Advertisements of "free ... with your purchase" work, even though 99% of the time whatever you get "free" is totally useless junk. We also have a culture that implies constantly getting new stuff is a good thing. Nobody mends clothes anymore, or fixes a broken radio, as long as new stuff is available for so cheap.
It's easier to say "I need a new horse" than to put effort into fixing what's wrong with the one you have (e.g. behavioral or medical). It's also more exciting to bring a new $50 auction horse home, with all the hopes and dreams attached to it, than to pay yet more vet bills for your horse that has been lame for half a year.
In the end, it doesn't really matter if the purchase price of a horse is $50, or $500, or $5000, if you want to keep and maintain it for a lifetime, it will end up costing you much more than that anyways.

There was a "hoarding" case in our area a while back, where a couple had the starving dogs living in their own urine and feces in the back of the house, while they had three "new" ones in the front (where they lived) that were well fed and taken care of. That's not really hoarding or cluelessness to me, since they clearly seemed to know what the animals needed and were capable to provide it to some of them, but not the others. To me, that's probably a result of the old ones getting "boring", and the new ones were still exciting and worth taking care of.

I have one horse and two dogs, and no desire to have any more. My horse and one of the dogs cost me about $6G in vet bills this year alone already. My horse is currently unrideable and won't be for at least a few more months to come. In the times when my horse is well, he needs to be ridden 4-6 times a week to maintain his training level, preferrably with a trainer at least once a week. True, it's not as "sexy" as bringing home two new horses every year, and starting colts on the side, but it's plenty of work and financial burden for me.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Animal harders tend to isolate from society.
TBforever posted a very good description of the illnessn and some of the very treatable underlying issues that may precondition some one to become a hoarder.
This IMO has not been studied as thoroughly as needed but we are seeing more and more cases .
If you keep Bday cards or sentimental things you ARE NOT a hoarder. You have a very logical reason to want to preserve these things. Memories do matter. Especially to parents. Shalom


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> Animal harders tend to isolate from society.
> TBforever posted a very good description of the illnessn and some of the very treatable underlying issues that may precondition some one to become a hoarder.
> This IMO has not been studied as thoroughly as needed but we are seeing more and more cases .
> If you keep Bday cards or sentimental things you ARE NOT a hoarder. You have a very logical reason to want to preserve these things. *Memories do matter. Especially to parents.* Shalom


So off topic for a second, my mom, as mentioned above wasn't quite right though I didn't get into details...Well she always kept some of my discarded baby teeth as souvenirs.

I also kept a few of my daughter's baby teeth. Well my husband found out and freaked out a little bit and said it was gross.

So is that "normal", is it tradition...or am I doing something wrong??!


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Daddies may not understand that .. but I think most mammas do!


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

If you kept the babies first dirty diaper, the first cloth it threw up on then your husband should be a little concerned. Babby teeth are ok. I know people that keep the foreskin after a baby has been circumsized.
I would not worry.demonwolf. Shalom


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## outnabout (Jul 23, 2010)

An example of hoarding as a behavior associated with loss or low self esteem would be my adopted daughter who hoarded trash, especially paper trash. Just about every drawer in her bedroom and bathroom, as well as every container she had, from purses to shoeboxes, was full of torn up papers, folded notes, crumpled papers. She would write one or two words on a sheet of paper, fold it up, and throw it in with the others. She also collected tons of writing instruments of all sorts. Adopted kids of course have huge loss issues, and many have low self esteem for various reasons after the loss of their biological parent(s) and living situation before they were taken into care. So perhaps it is possible that hoarders of stuff are grieving some sort of profound loss??? Very interesting topic, although the animal hoarding is hard to stomach. As someone said, we can help by notifying the authorities when necessary.


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