# So off balance!



## Emeraldsprings (Mar 1, 2015)

I know what you mean by the "leaning in" feeling in a smaller circle. My boy does it more to the right for some reason and my old pony used to as well. I don't actually ride Western but I've found that ramming your outside leg down into the stirrup as much as I can helps me. I concentrate on pushing my heel down as far as I can as I know the leaning feeling makes me tense up and end up leaning in myself. It gets easier with practice, if you haven't done much arena/circle work don't worry you will feel much better with practice. Hope this helps!


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

This is normal for some horses, more so when going a little faster. 

I was taught to try to maintain sitting straight up and down. So basically you're weight will be on your outside hip and you may even find it helpful to put more weight in the outside stirrup to support you. 

Learning to the inside seems like the natural thing, that is how you would ride a bicycle through a tight turn at speed, but it is incorrect. It will also give you problems with tighter circles as your seat/weight is pushing the horse to the outside.


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## jenkat86 (May 20, 2014)

What exactly is he at the trainer for? Is she teaching him to move off your leg? What bit are you riding him in?

Just going to throw this out there, it could be part of the problem or maybe not at all. But I've noticed that most western riders (at least in my area) tend to ride with their stirrups a tad too long. Maybe try bringing them up a hole and really try to sit deep.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

​ 
_Emory H. Sager, of the Shoe Bar, on "Old Blue" his favorite cutting horse, working the herd out on roundup grounds. Shoe Bar Ranch, Texas_, 1912

Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide​ 
There are at least 2 ways a horse can turn. In one, he stays upright vertically, with his hind feet following the path of the front feet. I believe this is called "straight" in dressage, and it requires a horse to shorten its wheelbase (so to speak) and change how it normally uses its feet. It is pretty comfortable for the rider, though. If I want my horse to turn like that, I often need to put weight into the outside stirrup.

The 'natural' way a horse turns can be simulated by getting on your hands and knees and turning. You'll shove your front sideways with your hands and twist a little into the turn. The horse in the picture above is doing that. On a mindless motorcycle, the rider would lean into the turn. But a horse has a mind, and being 'predictable' by keeping the torso upright makes it easier for him to figure out his balance.

But in a round pen, my guess is that turning that way continuously is hard on the horse. That may be the natural way for a horse to turn, but in the real world, horses don't run (trot, lope) in continuous circles. The second method works fine for a horse thru 60, 90 or 180 degrees of turn. In the wild or on a trail, few horses need to go at any speed in a full circle. I used to own a mare who, if asked to do 2+ complete circles or figure 8s would stop, turn her head around, look at me, and darn near say, "_Are you LOST? Do you need a MAP? I'm working hard and we are going nowhere! What is your problem, boy?_"

This is just a guess, but your horse may be working hard to figure out how to balance doing multiple full circles, and thus becoming a rougher ride. His balance affects your balance, and if he feels awkward...you will.

My current horse was used before me for endurance racing in NE AZ & NW NM. He has a fast trot and a good canter - in the open. Ask him to do it in a 60' circle, and he really struggles. And when he's struggling, I end up struggling too. Yet he can turn 180 degrees faster than I want to, at any speed, and has proven it many times. It is a sustained circle that challenges him.

All IMHO only. I'm self-taught, don't show or compete and no one would want a lesson from me. But what I've written matches what I think I've seen with my horses.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

If you and your horse are accustomed to trail riding, riding circles in a round pen may seem quite different. The smaller the round pen, the more pronounced this feeling will be. 

A horse may adjust its body in a number of ways when circling. The concept of the horse bending throughout its body to maintain “straightness” by aligning with the circumference of the circle is the ideal. If the horse is not flexible enough or if the circle is too small, the horse must lean. This leaning may feel more pronounced if the horse’s weight is concentrated forward.

When riding circles, the rider should try to keep his own center of gravity above the horse’s center of gravity. Riding this way prevents the horse from needing to adjust its movements to compensate for the rider. This means that, if the horse leans when negotiating a circle, the rider might “think” of leaning the opposite way. What the rider should actually do is maintain a vertical position in relationship to the ground. This will help keep the rider’s weight over the horse’s center of gravity.

A rider can best adjust his balance if he is relaxed. A rider with tense muscles tends to overcompensate when trying to make corrections. Maintaining good balance requires the ability to make smooth and subtle adjustments. A side effect of the rider being relaxed is that the horse will be more relaxed and, thus, able to make similar smooth and subtle adjustments to maintain balance.

It might help to think of your upper torso as the bubble in a carpenter’s level that lies on the horses back perpendicularly to the line of the horse’s spine. The more the level is tipped, the more the bubble appears to rise as is moves sideways in the tube.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

A video of your horse loping a circle would be helpful.
If a horse has not learned to keep his shoulder up, but instead drops that inside shoulder, then loping faster to keep his balance, heavy on his front end, then you will also feel out of balance, esp if you are not sitting up, but leaning forward.
When you are just loping out on a trail, in a straight line, a horse loping on his front end, is not such a big deal, and in fact, race horses run on their front end, as that is the most efficient way to cover a lot of ground
However, loping a circle, esp a relatively small one, if a horse has not been taught to lope while keeping inside shoulder up and hind end engaged, he will drop that inside shoulder, and then be scrambling, to keep his balance, and often also pop hip out and cross fire behind You should also just be able to see the inside corner of the horse;s eye, loping a circle, versus having him over bent
A good lope in a circle or elsewhere, is very easy to sit, so I can't help but think that your horse lacks the basics to lope correctly in a circle.
I could not see that video of him lunging, But this picture of me loping a young horse for her first few times, might give you an idea of the bend you want, and able to stay out of the horse's way, as he learns to carry you , providing he has the basics to guide between those reins
Can you post a video, or even a picture of you loping the horse, and that will enable us to help you more
Be sure to ride with some weight in your stirrups, and legs under you


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

When a horse is working cattle, as in the picture posted, you don't worry about correct bend, ect, loping a circle, but maneuverability, , esp able to move those shoulders, engage behind, thus able to make sudden and fast turns and direction changes
Turning suddenly, and loping a correct circle, is not one and the same. To lope a circle, correctly, a horse has to keep that inside should up, and have the correct bend in his entire body, thus ribs out, hind end engaged
Since the horse is broke, I would not lope in the roundpen. That is okay, for a colt, for that first lope or so, but they don't really learn to guide that way, and the areas is often too small


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Loping a correct circle is a somewhat specialized skill set. It just is not something a horse learns on its own, since they have no use for loping in circles. Horses have 4 feet to coordinate, and they need to learn a different motion and pattern with their feet to 'lope a correct circle'. It is entirely possible to have a nimble, surefooted trail horse who is not capable of loping a smooth circle. And while the horse is learning, the rider is going to feel awkward too.

You might try loping in a circle on a horse who knows how to do it, to check to see if you are the problem, or if your horse just needs to learn how to do it.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> Loping a correct circle is a somewhat specialized skill set. It just is not something a horse learns on its own, since they have no use for loping in circles. Horses have 4 feet to coordinate, and they need to learn a different motion and pattern with their feet to 'lope a correct circle'. It is entirely possible to have a nimble, surefooted trail horse who is not capable of loping a smooth circle. And while the horse is learning, the rider is going to feel awkward too.
> 
> You might try loping in a circle on a horse who knows how to do it, to check to see if you are the problem, or if your horse just needs to learn how to do it.


Exactly what I am saying, more or less, and why that horse has to learn to keep shoulders up, for the rider to sit up, and for the rider not to try and hold that horse on that circle, just using reins, thus over bending the head and neck, actually facilitating the drop of that inside shoulder, which in turn pops hip out.
On a horse learning, the rider has to feel when a shoulder might need to be bumped in or out, ribs pushed out, ect
Point being, loping circles,, correctly, then makes it very easy to lope that horse out, can be used to help him learn to use himself correctly, by loping one or two circles in one direction, stopping, turning over the hocks tot he outside of that circle, and then loping off in opposite direction, no trotting steps, ect Endless circles don't do much, but used correctly, are useful for teaching transitions, guide, , rate speed, ect


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## mramsay (Feb 1, 2010)

jenkat86 said:


> What exactly is he at the trainer for? Is she teaching him to move off your leg? What bit are you riding him in?
> 
> Just going to throw this out there, it could be part of the problem or maybe not at all. But I've noticed that most western riders (at least in my area) tend to ride with their stirrups a tad too long. Maybe try bringing them up a hole and really try to sit deep.




I would consider the horse 'green broke' before going to the trainer. Lots of trail miles, but mostly go, whoa, left & right. He's learning to move of leg, move his fore and hind quarters, to be 'on the bit' and getting round, neck reining, suppleness and softness, etc. not for any particular competitive sport. He was always in a snaffle, but has been put in a Jr. Cow horse bit with a dog bone mouth piece--but is being ridden on the middle ring like a snaffle right now.

I will try to shorten the stirrups. I think much of the problem is we both need miles--me to get my balance and to be able to multitask, and him to learn his own balance and rhythm.


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