# Pat or Clint



## Saranda

There are already several HUGE threads on this topic; you should look into those:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-trainers/parelli-clinton-anderson-112829/
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-trainers/clinton-v-s-pat-146677/


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## nrhareiner

Neither. Would not let either of them swing a leg over any of my horses.


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## ashleighjoy2007

Clinton Anderson, because I use his training methods and it's done wonders for my Gelding and I. I haven't seen any or Parelli's stuff or read his books though, so I'm not making an informed decision =)


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## HorseCrazyTeen

Well, I am NOT a fan of Pat's. I tried his stuff once and couldn't get past all of the garbage. I have tried some of Clintons stuff, and have a lot of his groundwork dvd's. What I have done works well for me. I do not follow a single trainer though. There are plenty of other good trainers out there.


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## Nokotaheaven

I prefer Pat. Though I also like John Lyons


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## kayhmk

If those two guys were the only options in the world, I'd take Clinton. I don't know that much about his methods or whether I would personally like them or the guy himself, but from simply watching video clips I think he's more capable. I think he could take my horse further in the direction I'd want to go. His quality of riding is better and I've generally liked the look and feel of CA trained horses better.


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## nikyplushbreyer

no one like pat except nokota why does no one like him?


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## Wanstrom Horses

nikyplushbreyer said:


> no one like pat except nokota why does no one like him?


Simple. He can't ride a stick horse to the well, he plows around on his horse's face like a caveman, he markets trick training under horsemanship and MANY of the horses trained with his methods are cranky and disrespectful...


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## Padrona

Pat. He did work my horse and did an absolutely amazing job with her. I was mesmerized watching him with her. He was firm when he had to be, but compassionate and tactful. I would be honored any day of the week to turn any of my hoses over to Pat.


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## nikyplushbreyer

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Simple. He can't ride a stick horse to the well, he plows around on his horse's face like a caveman, he markets trick training under horsemanship and MANY of the horses trained with his methods are cranky and disrespectful...


well you can't ride a stick horse rather it looks like you can't even tell what a horse is


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## nikyplushbreyer

nikyplushbreyer said:


> well you can't ride a stick horse rather it looks like you can't even tell what a horse is


srry i wasn't btrying to be mean:hide:


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## Wanstrom Horses

nikyplushbreyer said:


> well you can't ride a stick horse rather it looks like you can't even tell what a horse is


Um.. I've been riding horses my entire life, and training professionally for quite a few years now. I work for ranches and spend every waking hour in the saddle. From night calving all night, to day working, to riding colts for people. I can ride, and if you ride bridle horses, you must be able to ride and have very light hands. So your immature comment is pretty incorrect in my book, but if you want to follow a guy with bad hands and poor riding ability, be my guest...


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## nrhareiner

nikyplushbreyer said:


> well you can't ride a stick horse rather it looks like you can't even tell what a horse is



Not sure where this came from. What Wanstrom stated about PP is correct. He can not ride to save his live. His hands are like a brick on the end of the reins. He pulls his horses around like a tow truck. Now if you want a trick trained horse. He's your guy.


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## nikyplushbreyer

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Um.. I've been riding horses my entire life, and training professionally for quite a few years now. I work for ranches and spend every waking hour in the saddle. From night calving all night, to day working, to riding colts for people. I can ride, and if you ride bridle horses, you must be able to ride and have very light hands. So your immature comment is pretty incorrect in my book, but if you want to follow a guy with bad hands and poor riding ability, be my guest...


ill have you know that from the training from PP he has taught me to ride at a gallop with no bridal or saddle and be able to stop my horse with just my hands . and i am sorry for getting mad at you no hard feelings


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## Nokotaheaven

Padrona said:


> Pat. He did work my horse and did an absolutely amazing job with her. I was mesmerized watching him with her. He was firm when he had to be, but compassionate and tactful. I would be honored any day of the week to turn any of my hoses over to Pat.


I am going to save that picture! It's amazing


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## nrhareiner

nikyplushbreyer said:


> ill have you know that from the training from PP he has taught me to ride at a gallop with no bridal or saddle and be able to stop my horse with just my hands . and i am sorry for getting mad at you no hard feelings


See that is the problem. You should not need your hands to get a horse to stop.

As for the other part. Ya? Not sure how big a deal that is. It is what you do with the horse while doing all that. 

This is the way I look at it. Riding with out a saddle or bridle is basically the end result of good training if you put that into actually doing something past loping around. IE what Stacy did. Past that it is nothing more then trick riding. Same as you would see in the circus.


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## Nokotaheaven

nrhareiner said:


> See that is the problem. You should not need your hands to get a horse to stop.
> 
> As for the other part. Ya? Not sure how big a deal that is. It is what you do with the horse while doing all that.
> 
> This is the way I look at it. Riding with out a saddle or bridle is basically the end result of good training if you put that into actually doing something past loping around. IE what Stacy did. Past that it is nothing more then trick riding. Same as you would see in the circus.


... This is all I have to say.. Btw, notice how he likes to exaggerate? He does that whenever he's teaching someone. I know cuz we do it too to explain things better.


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## Nokotaheaven

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcXcbXA9oVk


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## gypsygirl

the way i see it is that we all use are horses for different things, we also all learn differently. just because you dont like a particular method does not mean it doesnt work for someone else, or it wont help someone else. i really like CA, but i dont 'follow' him exclusively bc i event, he obviously does not ! that doesnt mean i havent learned anything from him, but he cant teach me everything. 

luckily there is more than one trainer in the world and we can pick who we want to follow.


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## nikyplushbreyer

thank you nokota


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## Wanstrom Horses

nrhareiner said:


> See that is the problem. You should not need your hands to get a horse to stop.
> 
> As for the other part. Ya? Not sure how big a deal that is. It is what you do with the horse while doing all that.
> 
> This is the way I look at it. Riding with out a saddle or bridle is basically the end result of good training if you put that into actually doing something past loping around. IE what Stacy did. Past that it is nothing more then trick riding. Same as you would see in the circus.


I totally agree!! I was watching a PP video the other night, just to see if maybe the guy had at least something to offer. It remeinded me of the Shriner's circus we used to go to as kids. And thats it. I never really saw any true, working, practical horsemanship in there...


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## Nokotaheaven

gypsygirl said:


> the way i see it is that we all use are horses for different things, we also all learn differently. just because you dont like a particular method does not mean it doesnt work for someone else, or it wont help someone else. i really like CA, but i dont 'follow' him exclusively bc i event, he obviously does not ! that doesnt mean i havent learned anything from him, but he cant teach me everything.
> 
> luckily there is more than one trainer in the world and we can pick who we want to follow.


I agree with you there. But I feel like Pat is kind of being picked on here, for something that doesn't really have anything to do with training a horse.. Who cares how he ssits? There's obviously a reason for it. He used to ride broncs for a living at one point, so maybe he's got a past injury that we don't know about. I have a biography book on him as well, and can say that all throughout the book they only talked about one injury... Where he got all the skin nearly ripped off his thumb, that's it


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## Wanstrom Horses

Nokotaheaven said:


> I agree with you there. But I feel like Pat is kind of being picked on here, for something that doesn't really have anything to do with training a horse.. Who cares how he ssits? There's obviously a reason for it. He used to ride broncs for a living at one point, so maybe he's got a past injury that we don't know about. I have a biography book on him as well, and can say that all throughout the book they only talked about one injury... Where he got all the skin nearly ripped off his thumb, that's it


So does that injury to his thumb make it ok for him to yank on his horses mouths? I've almost lost fingers in dallies and I don't plow around on my horses face. And the way you sit has A LOT to do with horse training, a bad seat can really screw up a horses response to cues. If you ask me, or any other trainer worth a lick, your seat and hands has everything to do with training a responsive horse....


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## Nokotaheaven

Wanstrom Horses said:


> So does that injury to his thumb make it ok for him to yank on his horses mouths? I've almost lost fingers in dallies and I don't plow around on my horses face. And the way you sit has A LOT to do with horse training, a bad seat can really screw up a horses response to cues. If you ask me, or any other trainer worth a lick, your seat and hands has everything to do with training a responsive horse....


I've watched countless videos of him working with horses. He doesn't 'plow around' on their mouths, he is just firm when teaching. If you try to turn a horse that doesn't want to, you go 'pop, pop, pop, POP' on the reins, it's not the same as jerking a horse, but it teaches him 'oh i better turn when she asks me to so i don't get popped again'. I've done it, it's one of the first steps and easiest ways to create a better more responsive horse. Ok I'm just gunna go, I got stuff to do. No point in trying to explain things I actually know about if people aren't going to listen


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## Wanstrom Horses

Nope, watch this video and tell me he isn't plowing on e reins.. Way too much contact for a western horse in a curb bit... And this is supposed to be a finished horse! The guy can't ride..


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## nrhareiner

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Nope, watch this video and tell me he isn't plowing on e reins.. Way too much contact for a western horse in a curb bit... And this is supposed to be a finished horse! The guy can't ride..
> 
> Pat Parelli and Magic - YouTube


You beat me too it. I was just going to post this one.

Got to love how much he is pulling on the horses mouth how little his hands move when needed and how he pulls the horse round in the turns. Which by the way are NOT CORRECT at all.


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## nrhareiner

Nokotaheaven said:


> I've watched countless videos of him working with horses. He doesn't 'plow around' on their mouths, he is just firm when teaching. If you try to turn a horse that doesn't want to, you go 'pop, pop, pop, POP' on the reins, it's not the same as jerking a horse, but it teaches him 'oh i better turn when she asks me to so i don't get popped again'. I've done it, it's one of the first steps and easiest ways to create a better more responsive horse. Ok I'm just gunna go, I got stuff to do. No point in trying to explain things I actually know about if people aren't going to listen


Ya trying to enplane reining to a reiner. Good for you. Also that is NOT the best way to get a lighter horse.


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## Wanstrom Horses

nrhareiner said:


> You beat me too it. I was just going to post this one.
> 
> Got to love how much he is pulling on the horses mouth how little his hands move when needed and how he pulls the horse round in the turns. Which by the way are NOT CORRECT at all.


Yes. You would think with all his pressure and release and bridless speeches he would follow some of his own advice...


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## nrhareiner

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Yes. You would think with all his pressure and release and bridless speeches he would follow some of his own advice...


You would think but what it comes down to is that he can not ride so he works too hard on the horses face to stay where heed needs to be. Plus add in the fact that he THINKS that faster shows better training and I am sure that to the uneducated eye at these clinics it is more impressive to him to go fast even if it is not correct as most people only see the speed not that what he is doing is not correct.

Now go out and do that and drop the reins and we will talk. I do it all the time. I find that I too get to reliant on the reins so I drop them and work with out them. However I never get into my horses face like that. Not even a green horse who is just learning.


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## jaydee

Maybe if some people would stop talking as if PP is the only one that can do things or teach things then he wouldnt be getting so much stick
Perhaps its not the man who's to blame but the fans who think he should be sat on a pedestal above everyone else?
There are loads of great trainers out there all teaching much the same stuff, learn from them all if they have something worth offering
PS - All of my horses walk alongside me on a long rope - or even with no rope at all - does that make me great? No it doesnt.
All of this makes me think about 'Who's your favourite pop star (is that what they call them nowadays?)
Sorry but it seems very childish


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## bsms

Pat or Clint? Hmmm...I'll take the local trainer who worked with my horses. Why? Because Clint & Pat aren't likely to come to my house 4 times/week and train my horses at a pice I can afford, and I need someone who is better at horses than I am who will do the work I can't do - read my horses and teach them one on one.

I don't really mind them selling DVDs, although they both get a bit heavy handed on their marketing. But I wish the average owner who needs help with a horse would think, "Is there someone I can hire?" Because if your knowledge of horses has resulted in your horse having a problem (and I speak from personal example), then a DVD won't help.

DVDs are for those ready to start training, but are often bought by folks who aren't ready to ride, let alone train. Some fault belongs with the marketing, but a lot belongs to people who want a quick or cheap fix to a problem that, in reality, they are responsible for creating. Again, I write as someone who has been guilty, although it isn't fun admitting it. 

Like another Clint said:


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## waresbear

Ok, lets put it this way.....who is a better marketer of their methods? Pat or Clint? I would say Pat, I take my hat off to his marketing strategy!


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## nikyplushbreyer

guys in the Bible it says treat others as you would want to be treated so let me give you an example.
you suck at riding you can't even sit in the saddle. You pull on the reins to much you jerk around your horse.
would really want some one to say this to you, I certainly wouldn't. but why do I even try to tell you if you don't listen?


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## nikyplushbreyer

and guys don't forget everyone has their own thought on things so i am not goig to fight with you guys any more


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## BBBCrone

*scratches head*

No idea how the Bible got all involved in this. Doesn't have anything to do with the subject at hand.

If I'm putting myself out there and saying I'm a trainer and can do all these marvelous things but FAIL at some of the very basic stuff then I open myself up to criticism whether I like it or not or the Bible said stuff.


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## Wanstrom Horses

nikyplushbreyer said:


> guys in the Bible it says treat others as you would want to be treated so let me give you an example.
> you suck at riding you can't even sit in the saddle. You pull on the reins to much you jerk around your horse.
> would really want some one to say this to you, I certainly wouldn't. but why do I even try to tell you if you don't listen?


Ummm... This isnt Sunday school... And lets put it this way, would you hire a lawyer that had about as much biting wit as a rock?? No! The thing Pat does that irks me is he markets himself as a horseman, yet he can't ride. Its kinda BS that he puts himself out there on DVDs and clinics to beginner horse trainers, yet can't sit a horse if his life depended on it and yanks their face off. It's quite sad, if only people could see throught the "magical" marketing ploy and look at the guy's raw skills, which are not that impressive...


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## nrhareiner

nikyplushbreyer said:


> guys in the Bible it says treat others as you would want to be treated so let me give you an example.
> you suck at riding you can't even sit in the saddle. You pull on the reins to much you jerk around your horse.
> would really want some one to say this to you, I certainly wouldn't. but why do I even try to tell you if you don't listen?


Well lets see. If I was a bad rider ya I would want it pointed out so I would know where I Needed to improve. That is why you go and take lessons for. SO you can have someone watch what you are doing and point out what you are doing wrong. Not really a hard concept.

Thing is that no one seems to be telling PP that what he is doing is wrong. Maybe b/c they are baffled by his B/S? You know what they say. "If you can not dazzle them with your brilliance baffle them with your bull Sh...T"

Only trainer to ever come off a horse at the "Road To the Horse" Competition. What does that tell you?? Has shown NRHA and yet has no earnings. Again what does that tell you? If he was as good as people seem to what to think he is or he thinks he is he should have a few $$ in earnings. The other trainers with DVDs do. CA does Stacy does. So why not PP??


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## nikyplushbreyer

nrhareiner said:


> Well lets see. If I was a bad rider ya I would want it pointed out so I would know where I Needed to improve. That is why you go and take lessons for. SO you can have someone watch what you are doing and point out what you are doing wrong. Not really a hard concept.
> 
> Thing is that no one seems to be telling PP that what he is doing is wrong. Maybe b/c they are baffled by his B/S? You know what they say. "If you can not dazzle them with your brilliance baffle them with your bull Sh...T"
> 
> Only trainer to ever come off a horse at the "Road To the Horse" Competition. What does that tell you?? Has shown NRHA and yet has no earnings. Again what does that tell you? If he was as good as people seem to what to think he is or he thinks he is he should have a few $$ in earnings. The other trainers with DVDs do. CA does Stacy does. So why not PP??


ok cool


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## jaydee

nikyplushbreyer said:


> guys in the Bible it says treat others as you would want to be treated so let me give you an example.
> you suck at riding you can't even sit in the saddle. You pull on the reins to much you jerk around your horse.
> would really want some one to say this to you, I certainly wouldn't. but why do I even try to tell you if you don't listen?


 Well I sure as hell would - how on earth can anyone expect to learn if they dont listen to good advice and have their faults pointed out?
This is why a hands on trainer is so much better than a DVD
I have a terrible habit of looking down at the horses shoulder and that makes me drop my own shoulder - I love having someone yell at me to tell me to stop doing it


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## bsms

nikyplushbreyer said:


> ...you suck at riding you can't even sit in the saddle. You pull on the reins to much you jerk around your horse.
> would really want some one to say this to you, I certainly wouldn't...


Odd. I PAID someone $35/hour to tell me just that - and more! Every week for months. Pat could come here and read it for free. Lucky Pat! :lol:


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## nikyplushbreyer

jaydee said:


> Well I sure as hell would - how on earth can anyone expect to learn if they dont listen to good advice and have their faults pointed out?
> This is why a hands on trainer is so much better than a DVD
> I have a terrible habit of looking down at the horses shoulder and that makes me drop my own shoulder - I love having someone yell at me to tell me to stop doing it


ok well i meant that you already where good at those things but you where being called names and a bad rider


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## nikyplushbreyer

you know what if all we are going to do on here is fight then i will just cancel the thread or i will stop talking most likely cancel the thread


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## Speed Racer

nikyplushbreyer said:


> ok well i meant that you already where good at those things but you where being called names and a bad rider


Who was saying that? If you had a trainer and they were telling you those things, maybe you _weren't_ as good a rider as you thought.

I don't _want_ a trainer to pat me on the head, coo at me, and tell me I'm a fantabulous rider if I suck eggs. They'd dang well better tell me what I need to do to improve, instead of kissing my tuckus and telling me I'm great when I'm not. :?


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## nikyplushbreyer

Speed Racer said:


> Who was telling you that? If you had a trainer, maybe you weren't as good a rider as you thought if they were telling you those things.
> 
> I don't _want_ a trainer to pat me on the head, coo at me, and tell me I'm a fantabulous rider if I suck eggs. They'd dang well better tell me what I need to do to improve, instead of kissing my tuckus and telling me I'm great when I'm not. :?


I KNOW!! omgosh you guys don't get it do you i would like it if my trainer telling me that too but i am just trying to say pat is not a bad rider you guys just want to win everything don't you i mean seriously guys think maybe some people have opinions maybe just maybe but i yes you guys just want every one to think what your thinking right stop saying bad things about pat he is not a bad rider to you have to say bd things about everything he does if you was pulling on the reins hard how could he teach his horse to be riden without any reins huh? think about that for a moment but you guys don't like to think ( i am not talking about you nokota) it seems everyone hate pat so i hate you now how did that make you feel i don't really hate you please stop saying bad things please at least some people don't say every thing bad about a rider who is a very good rider putting in reference nokota doesn't say anything bad about him because she knows who is a good rider and who is a bad rider


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## Speed Racer

What the HECK are you going on about, niky? Where did I say _anything_ about PP? 

Oh, and please use punctuation. That big, run on, hysterical sentence was extremely difficult to read. 

As far as Nokota knowing who's a good or bad rider just because she agrees with you, doesn't make it so.

What does winning have to do with anything? I haven't shown in many years. That doesn't mean I shouldn't strive to be the best rider I can, just because I'm no longer on the show circuit.

I don't drink _anybody's_ Koolaid, but it's pretty obvious you do. It's also obvious you're very young. Once you're older and have more experience, maybe you'll see that PP isn't the end all-be all of horsedom. Or maybe you won't. Won't affect me at all, either way.


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## nrhareiner

nikyplushbreyer said:


> ok well i meant that you already where good at those things but you where being called names and a bad rider



Thing is that HE IS NOT good at these things or riding. He needs to go back to riding 101 and learn all over again.


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## nikyplushbreyer

Speed Racer said:


> What the HECK are you going on about, niky? Where did I say _anything_ about PP?
> 
> Oh, and please use punctuation. That big, run on, hysterical sentence was extremely difficult to read.
> 
> As far as Nokota knowing who's a good or bad rider just because she agrees with you, doesn't make it so.
> 
> What does winning have to do with anything? I haven't shown in many years. That doesn't mean I shouldn't strive to be the best rider I can, just because I'm no longer on the show circuit.
> 
> I don't drink _anybody's_ Koolaid, but it's pretty obvious you do. It's also obvious you're very young. Once you're older and have more experience, maybe you'll see that PP isn't the end all-be all of horsedom. Or maybe you won't. Won't affect me at all, either way.


i wasn't talking about you, I really think your cool! look earlier in the thread and you will see what I am mad about.


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## Kayella

Okayyyy, Niky. You know the saying "With age comes wisdom"? A lot of these people have been riding/training horse since before you were even born. I'm sure they would have the ability to see a good vs. a bad rider any time of day. You posted on a public forum asking for people's opinions. They gave their opinions. If anyone is making a fuss or a big deal about things, it is you. Be mature, type rationally. Don't hit the send button before thinking because that can get you in trouble. 

These people are giving you their opinions because you asked for it. One should be able to take that in, say "Okay, I understand and respect your opinion" and maybe even reflect upon it. Why are so many people saying he's a bad rider? Watch him, and I mean WATCH him. Watch the horse. A lot of people focus on the tricks that he can do, how desensitized his horses are, that they forget to look at how he rides. Compare how he rides to professional trainers that are winning world shows. Do you see a difference? I know I would. Don't just throw a hissy fit when someone doesn't agree with you. Reflect upon it and maybe you can learn something new.


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## nrhareiner

nikyplushbreyer said:


> I KNOW!! omgosh you guys don't get it do you i would like it if my trainer telling me that too but i am just trying to say pat is not a bad rider
> 
> *Ever think we are saying that b/c he is? Again go watch some videos and stop looking at what you THINK is cool like him trying to turn his horses which again is not correct and actually watch his hands. Staying on a horse does not make you a good rider.*
> 
> you guys just want to win everything don't you i mean seriously guys think maybe some people have opinions maybe just maybe but i yes you guys just want every one to think what your thinking right stop saying bad things about pat he is not a bad rider to you have to say bd things about everything he does if you was pulling on the reins hard how could he teach his horse to be riden without any reins huh? think about that for a moment but you guys don't like to think ( i am not talking about you nokota) it seems everyone hate pat so i hate you now how did that make you feel i don't really hate you please stop saying bad things please at least some people don't say every thing bad about a rider who is a very good rider putting in reference nokota doesn't say anything bad about him because she knows who is a good rider and who is a bad rider


Been riding and showing reining horses for almost 2 decades. When they play score that horse I am always with in a 1/2 point of the total score of each horse of what the judges give the horse. So that tells me that I know what I am looking at and for. What I see in PP riding is very very bad. That turn in the video that has been posted would not even mark a -1/2 more like a -1. So yes he has a bad rider with even worse hands.


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## nikyplushbreyer

nrhareiner said:


> Thing is that HE IS NOT good at these things or riding. He needs to go back to riding 101 and learn all over again.


you know that he is a good rider, WHY can't you see that? All you do is look at the way he rides and find every thing bad about it and point it out!


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## nrhareiner

nikyplushbreyer said:


> you know that he is a good rider, WHY can't you see that? All you do is look at the way he rides and find every thing bad about it and point it out!



Yes that is the point there is a lot of bad to point out. Again to watch his RIDING not his tricks. Watch his hands and his legs and his seat. He is all over the place and his hands are like rocks at the end of the reins and he is pulling the horse around vs asking for the turn he is pulling the horse through the turn. I can watch the horse and not even him and can tell you what he is doing wrong as the horse is showing me.


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## Speed Racer

nikyplushbreyer said:


> i wasn't talking about you, I really think your cool! look earlier in the thread and you will see what I am mad about.


You quoted me and then started ranting. How was I to presume that was _not_ directed at me specifically?

Really now, I've already said if someone's program works for you and your horse, _do it_. I'll continue to work and train by my own traditions, based on over 30 years of riding and owning horses.

Nobody knows it all. NOBODY. Not Pat Parelli, George Morris (although he's older than God), Walter Zettl, Clinton Anderson, Buck Brannaman, or any of the other BNTs. Anyone who thinks they know everything about horses is deluded. None of us will _ever_ know it all. We can learn a lot, but never everything.

Don't treat one BNT as if they're always right and everyone else is always wrong. All of them have something to offer, even if it's how NOT to do certain things.


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## nikyplushbreyer

Speed Racer said:


> You quoted me and then started ranting. How was I to presume that was _not_ directed at me specifically?
> 
> Really now, I've already said if someone's program works for you and your horse, _do it_. I'll continue to work and train by my own traditions, based on over 30 years of riding and owning horses.
> 
> Nobody knows it all. NOBODY. Not Pat Parelli, George Morris (although he's older than God), Walter Zettl, Clinton Anderson, Buck Brannaman, or any of the other BNTs. Anyone who thinks they know everything about horses is deluded. None of us will _ever_ know it all. We can learn a lot, but never everything.
> 
> Don't treat one BNT as if they're always right and everyone else is always wrong. All of them have something to offer, even if it's how NOT to do certain things.


oh sorry, lol i didn't mean to do that lol sometimes my computer acts up and does random things lol


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## Nokotaheaven

nrhareiner said:


> Yes that is the point there is a lot of bad to point out. Again to watch his RIDING not his tricks. Watch his hands and his legs and his seat. He is all over the place and his hands are like rocks at the end of the reins and he is pulling the horse around vs asking for the turn he is pulling the horse through the turn. I can watch the horse and not even him and can tell you what he is doing wrong as the horse is showing me.


Okay.. So please, post a video of you riding so we can point out YOUR flaws and tell you why you're a bad rider instead of saying how much of a good person or trainer.. Please do so


----------



## Nokotaheaven

Speed Racer said:


> You quoted me and then started ranting. How was I to presume that was _not_ directed at me specifically?
> 
> Really now, I've already said if someone's program works for you and your horse, _do it_. I'll continue to work and train by my own traditions, based on over 30 years of riding and owning horses.
> 
> Nobody knows it all. NOBODY. Not Pat Parelli, George Morris (although he's older than God), Walter Zettl, Clinton Anderson, Buck Brannaman, or any of the other BNTs. Anyone who thinks they know everything about horses is deluded. None of us will _ever_ know it all. We can learn a lot, but never everything.
> 
> Don't treat one BNT as if they're always right and everyone else is always wrong. All of them have something to offer, even if it's how NOT to do certain things.


THANK YOU for that comment!


----------



## Speed Racer

You go first Nokota, since you're claiming you can tell who is or isn't a great rider.

nrha has awards to show what she can do. What are _your_ qualifications?


----------



## nikyplushbreyer

Nokotaheaven said:


> Okay.. So please, post a video of you riding so we can point out YOUR flaws and tell you why you're a bad rider instead of saying how much of a good person or trainer.. Please do so


and also please note that everyone has opinions.


----------



## nikyplushbreyer

Speed Racer said:


> You go first Nokota, since you're claiming you can tell who is or isn't a great rider.
> 
> nrha has awards to show what she can do. What are _your_ qualifications?


she was just making a point she wasn't going to actually say anything bad!


----------



## Nokotaheaven

Speed Racer said:


> You go first Nokota, since you're claiming you can tell who is or isn't a great rider.
> 
> nrha has awards to show what she can do. What are _your_ qualifications?


I didn't mean it to sound like I'm claiming I can tell who is or isn't a great rider sorry... I was just trying to make a point.
Also, to me trophies don't mean you're a great rider.. I've seen cruel people win many ribbons and trophies, just saying. I'm not saying anyone here IS a bad person, like I said I was just trying to make a point.
I could say I don't like Clint for his methods, but if I do it is my own opinion and it doesn't mean I'm right and everyone else is wrong. I'm just saying to stop picking on Pat here


----------



## kayhmk

A bit of a tanget here again, but: 



Kayella said:


> Why are so many people saying he's a bad rider? Watch him, and I mean WATCH him. Watch the horse. A lot of people focus on the tricks that he can do, how desensitized his horses are, that they forget to look at how he rides. Compare how he rides to professional trainers that are winning world shows.


You know, someone should make a video in which they are doing *exactly* the same movements in *exactly* the same order. Then it would be so easy to compare...



nikyplushbreyer said:


> you know that he is a good rider, WHY can't you see that? All you do is look at the way he rides [...]


Well isn't that the way you normally determine if somebody's a good rider? By looking at how they ride?


----------



## nrhareiner

Nokotaheaven said:


> Okay.. So please, post a video of you riding so we can point out YOUR flaws and tell you why you're a bad rider instead of saying how much of a good person or trainer.. Please do so


First I am not putting myself out there as this great rider trainer like PP is. I am not selling DVDs and asking people for money for what I do on horses.

Next I will point out the trophy in my avatar. I will say again they do not give those out for participation. I have more of those then PP does. So what does that tell you??


----------



## nrhareiner

Nokotaheaven said:


> I didn't mean it to sound like I'm claiming I can tell who is or isn't a great rider sorry... I was just trying to make a point.
> Also, to me trophies don't mean you're a great rider.. I've seen cruel people win many ribbons and trophies, just saying. I'm not saying anyone here IS a bad person, like I said I was just trying to make a point.
> I could say I don't like Clint for his methods, but if I do it is my own opinion and it doesn't mean I'm right and everyone else is wrong. I'm just saying to stop picking on Pat here


'

See here is the difference. You say you can not tell. The fact is that I CAN. I have proven it over and over again. I can call a Reining run with in a 1/2 point of what the judges give 95% of the time.

Also if you can not ride you can not win at the NRHA level not even in the green level. Your horse would never perform. I have seen NRHA Open World Champion horses purchased by green and rookie reiners and they can not get the horse to do anything. 

You have to know how to ride to get a reiner even a push button reiner to work properly.


----------



## nikyplushbreyer

nrhareiner said:


> First I am not putting myself out there as this great rider trainer like PP is. I am not selling DVDs and asking people for money for what I do on horses.
> 
> Next I will point out the trophy in my avatar. I will say again they do not give those out for participation. I have more of those then PP does. So what does that tell you??


it tells me you are very competitive and you have apparently counted how many trovies he has. that doesn't tell me anything about you being a good rider i have a friend who is very good at riding and she doesn't have a single ribbon


----------



## nrhareiner

kayhmk said:


> You know, someone should make a video in which they are doing *exactly* the same movements in *exactly* the same order. Then it would be so easy to compare...


 I did that on one of these threads. I posted a video of PP doing spins then I posted a video of Shawn doing spins. So you could see what PP was doing and the correct way. yet those who think PP is such a great rider past right over it.


----------



## nikyplushbreyer

nrhareiner said:


> I did that on one of these threads. I posted a video of PP doing spins then I posted a video of Shawn doing spins. So you could see what PP was doing and the correct way. yet those who think PP is such a great rider past right over it.


ummmm i am not a western rider i am english


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## nrhareiner

nikyplushbreyer said:


> it tells me you are very competitive and you have apparently counted how many trovies he has. that doesn't tell me anything about you being a good rider i have a friend who is very good at riding and she doesn't have a single ribbon


Sure it does. That trophy is an NRHA Putter. I have several of them. Pat has shown NRHA under the same rules and he has non. 

If you can not ride you will not get a reining horse shown. It is just that simple. Go and watch and see. Or better yet go and ride a finished reiner and see how much you can get that horse to do. I am no where near Shawn or any open level rider but I can and do hold my own.


----------



## nrhareiner

nikyplushbreyer said:


> ummmm i am not a western rider i am english


So you are judging something you know nothing about?


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## nikyplushbreyer

no because i have been at one of his clinics and i have met him in person


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## Muppetgirl

nrhareiner said:


> First I am not putting myself out there as this great rider trainer like PP is. I am not selling DVDs and asking people for money for what I do on horses.
> 
> Next I will point out the trophy in my avatar. I will say again they do not give those out for participation. I have more of those then PP does. So what does that tell you??


This sooooo absolutely correct! I've seen people with $$$ buy very nice reining horses (while I've been sitting in the corner drooling) and seen those riders struggle and struggle and struggle while confusing the heck out of the reining horse. To ride a reining horse and have it perform at an above average level requires active riding and active thinking and the ability to analyze everything you do on that horse. Not just sitting there hauling a horse around with the reins......


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## jaydee

^^^^
That would explain a lot


----------



## jaydee

Sorry but my post got pipped by 2 others - what I meant is that to someone who knows diddly about western riding anything is going to look impressive to start with


----------



## nrhareiner

nikyplushbreyer said:


> no because i have been at one of his clinics and i have met him in person



Ya and that qualifies you how? Going to a clinic does not make you an expert in judging his riding ability. It makes it harder as you get all caught up in all the hype.


----------



## nikyplushbreyer

jaydee said:


> Sorry but my post got pipped by 2 others - what I meant is that to someone who knows diddly about western riding anything is going to look impressive to start with


i have ridden western for a year then i moved to english


----------



## Muppetgirl

Riding western for a year does not in anyway qualify you to discern one rider from another in terms of ability. Please elaborate what TYPE of western riding you were doing, because there is oceans of difference between many if not all western disciplines. Heck some people say they ride 'western' just because they've plopped their behind in a western saddle.


----------



## nrhareiner

nikyplushbreyer said:


> i have ridden western for a year then i moved to english


So you know more then someone who has been riding and showing reining horses for almost 2 decades? Really? My ability has been proven by impartial judges. 


My ability to judge riding and horses has also been proven many times. I pick good prospects. I pick good trainers to train and show the open level ones. I can also pick a score of a horses run. This comes from YEARS of doing what I do. It is a learning curve. I did not start out being able to do this. I have been around reining and reined cow horses for so long now that I know what I am looking at. I can tell good riding from bad. I can judge good hands from bad. Again been around good riders for a long time. I have the honor of riding with and around some of the best trainers/riders in the WORLD. When I show you will usually see Shawn, Mike and Stacy and many other top reiners showing at the same show. I have been watching these riders before they ever won anything. I remember watching Stacy show Can Can Lena before she won the Congress on that mare. Same with Roxy. I also remember Shawn before he ever one a single NRHA Open Futurity. You could tell he was going to go places.


----------



## nikyplushbreyer

Padrona said:


> Pat. He did work my horse and did an absolutely amazing job with her. I was mesmerized watching him with her. He was firm when he had to be, but compassionate and tactful. I would be honored any day of the week to turn any of my hoses over to Pat.


see this is what i mean by a good horseman


----------



## nrhareiner

nikyplushbreyer said:


> see this is what i mean by a good horseman


Even a blind squirrel can find an acorn ever once in a while. 

Also working a horse on the ground does not translate into good riding. I have a friend who can work a horse on the ground with the best of them. Her horses are all Halter horses. She can get them to do anything from the ground. However she does not and can not ride. She will be the first to tell you. She has halter horses b/c she can not ride.


----------



## Muppetgirl

nikyplushbreyer said:


> see this is what i mean by a good horseman


That statement you quoted says nothing of PPs ability.....it says the person was mesmerized....ie. Spellbound, hypnotized, Enchanted......
Why would you take that as a glowing reference to someone's ability?.....it's a side show....


----------



## Muppetgirl

nikyplushbreyer said:


> i am going to cancel this thread you guys are being jerks particularly nrhareiner


You can't cancel a thread.....doesn't work that way....


----------



## Nokotaheaven

Ok. Why can't we all just agree to disagree here? That's all I want. We all know something about riding, but we all learned it from different people and likely learned slightly different methods. I am a western rider, but I have ridden english and bareback (which i prefer), and I've jumped both in english and bareback. I have trained and assisted training horses, so I know what I do and how I ride works just fine for what I do.
What I pay attention to when I see people ride is not how they ride, I pay attention to how the horse reacts to the way it's being ridden. I watch shows and see all these horses with their ears back, heads up or tucked too far under, and a upset look in their eyes.. But the most tell-tale sign I see is the annoyed switching of the tail when asked to do something.
The only issue I have with showing that in reining horses is to me a lot of them look like they have gone introverted. But watch this video, watch the horse's head movements (minor ones) and how much the rider is pulling on the reins. Also watch the ears when they ask him to pick up the pace in the lope, this horse was upset.. Also I just watched some reining videos, I can easily say they were on the reins at least as much as Pat was and were using harsher bits as well


----------



## Nokotaheaven

nrhareiner said:


> Even a blind squirrel can find an acorn ever once in a while.
> 
> Also working a horse on the ground does not translate into good riding. I have a friend who can work a horse on the ground with the best of them. Her horses are all Halter horses. She can get them to do anything from the ground. However she does not and can not ride. She will be the first to tell you. She has halter horses b/c she can not ride.


Actually.. It does. Whatever you teach on the ground can and will be transferred to the saddle. The way I'm taught, you're supposed to start with groundwork in the first place to set up the fundamentals


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## Muppetgirl

Harsher bits? Do you have X-ray vision and can see inside the horses mouth? Really this is ridiculous.


----------



## Speed Racer

Having differing opinions and stating WHY they have those opinions does not make other peoples posts worthy of reporting.

None of the adults have been rude or used name calling. Unfortunately, I can't say that for some of the younger posters. 

If you post something on an open forum asking for opinions, you're going to get ones you don't like. That's the way it works. If all you want is agreement, maybe start a private group and only invite those people whose opinions dovetail with your own.


----------



## nrhareiner

Nokotaheaven said:


> Actually.. It does. Whatever you teach on the ground can and will be transferred to the saddle. The way I'm taught, you're supposed to start with groundwork in the first place to set up the fundamentals



While ground work can translate to under saddle work it does not give you the skills to do so. Ground working a horse does not give YOU the skills needed to balance and ride and use your hands properly. While you may be able to teach a horse to give to pressure on the ground and that can translate to giving to pressure under saddle. However that does not mean that your hands will learn when and how to give the release when needed to get a horse light and responsive.


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## Jake and Dai

Hi guys...

Just a friendly reminder that while differing opinions are ok, name-calling is not. So let's please keep it civil and respect each others opinions. Thanks.


----------



## nrhareiner

Nokotaheaven said:


> Ok. Why can't we all just agree to disagree here? That's all I want. We all know something about riding, but we all learned it from different people and likely learned slightly different methods. I am a western rider, but I have ridden english and bareback (which i prefer), and I've jumped both in english and bareback. I have trained and assisted training horses, so I know what I do and how I ride works just fine for what I do.
> What I pay attention to when I see people ride is not how they ride, I pay attention to how the horse reacts to the way it's being ridden. I watch shows and see all these horses with their ears back, heads up or tucked too far under, and a upset look in their eyes.. But the most tell-tale sign I see is the annoyed switching of the tail when asked to do something.
> The only issue I have with showing that in reining horses is to me a lot of them look like they have gone introverted. But watch this video, watch the horse's head movements (minor ones) and how much the rider is pulling on the reins. Also watch the ears when they ask him to pick up the pace in the lope, this horse was upset.. Also I just watched some reining videos, I can easily say they were on the reins at least as much as Pat was and were using harsher bits as well
> Finally Dunit Great - YouTube


Love how you picked a horse I personally know. I was there when he was still sucking on his dam. Watched him grown up. Nice horse not really an open level horse.

He was not being pulled around in the turns. His ears where back listening to the rider they where not pinned. Bit heavy on the stop but this horse while a nice stopper needs at this point with this rider needs a bit of help. Over all for a non pro rider that was a very nice run. Score it very well. Very light and giving and again very responsive.


----------



## Muppetgirl

nrhareiner said:


> Love how you picked a horse I personally know. I was there when he was still sucking on his dam. Watched him grown up. Nice horse not really an open level horse.
> 
> He was not being pulled around in the turns. His ears where back listening to the rider they where not pinned. Bit heavy on the stop but this horse while a nice stopper needs at this point with this rider needs a bit of help. Over all for a non pro rider that was a very nice run. Score it very well. Very light and giving and again very responsive.


I'd give my left arm to have a horse like that! I could still ride him with my right!!!


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Wow, well this thread took off like wildfire.. Just caught up with it and it made me laugh quite a bit  Nakotaheaven, that video you posted of Finally Dunnit Great, just proved that PP is a bad rider, so your arguement is invalid. That guy is not in his horse's face at all. Notice he is using ONE hand. In the video that I posted earlier in the thread, Pat is yanking Magic into a spin with twi hands using a shanked bit. NOT acceptable. And look at that video of Pat and Magic, with her mouth yanked open and tossing her head to get away from the bit, if that horse looked happy!! I want a horse to lay his ears back when I'm cueing him, it means he's paying attention to me. And harsher bit?? There is no such thing as a harsher bit, only more advanced. Tell me exactly what bit they are using in that video. Because my eyes just aren't that great. 
Anyways, I can see, argueing with children will get us nowhere. Once you PP followers advance in your riding and training skills, I'm sure that Pat Parelli will no longer "walk on water"...


----------



## Nokotaheaven

nrhareiner said:


> Love how you picked a horse I personally know. I was there when he was still sucking on his dam. Watched him grown up. Nice horse not really an open level horse.
> 
> He was not being pulled around in the turns. His ears where back listening to the rider they where not pinned. Bit heavy on the stop but this horse while a nice stopper needs at this point with this rider needs a bit of help. Over all for a non pro rider that was a very nice run. Score it very well. Very light and giving and again very responsive.


A horse's ears don't have to be pinned back to express being upset. I can see it in the horse's face btw.
Also, in the spins notice the reins from bit to hand had actually less slack in them then Pat's did, meaning the rider doesn't have to move his hands as much to get more of a response. And overall his reins were at least about as tight as Pat's were..


----------



## bsms

Nokotaheaven said:


> A horse's ears don't have to be pinned back to express being upset. I can see it in the horse's face btw...


Your computer must offer better resolution than mine does. :shock:


----------



## nrhareiner

Nokotaheaven said:


> A horse's ears don't have to be pinned back to express being upset. I can see it in the horse's face btw.
> Also, in the spins notice the reins from bit to hand had actually less slack in them then Pat's did, meaning the rider doesn't have to move his hands as much to get more of a response. And overall his reins were at least about as tight as Pat's were..


Then I need to ask what video you where watching? Again I know this horse. Have watched him since he was born. Have watched him show. He loves his job. He is showing in that video he is paying attention to the rider. He dose not look up set in the video or in person. The riders hands did not move more then a few inch from the center and he was using one hand where PP was using 2 hands and pulling to the side vs neck reining the horse into the turn. If you can not see the difference then you need to go back and learn some more about what is going on. 

Also watch the horse. In the video of the pally you will see his turns are correct vs PP turns which where not. It is more then the fact that PP is using 2 hands and pulling the horse through the turn. His horse is not performing the turn correctly.


----------



## nrhareiner

bsms said:


> Your computer must offer better resolution than mine does. :shock:



The fact is that I have watched this horse run a number of times over the years. I know this horse quite well. He is a nice horse. Knows and loves his job and is well trained. Can score quite well. More of a non pro horse then an open horse but that just shows he has a good mind.


----------



## Nokotaheaven

Also.. What I mean by harsher is it can deffinitely do more damage than other bits if not used correctly or overused.
Again, I'm saying a difference of opinion is okay, I respect your guys thoughts and opinions.. But saying someone can't do this or that then feeling the need to state why you're right and everyone else is wrong isn't.. I've only been asking for you to stop picking on Pat..
Now, I won't be on all weekend, maybe this weekend I'll get to see my horse one last time before she is very likely sold... I don't know how I am going to cope without her..
But anyways, just one last little thing before I leave this thread... A good horseman, and a good rider, you can be both... But there is a difference between the two. A good rider knows how to sit well in his seat and give cues and commands well... Well a good horseman knows how a horse is feeling and what it's thinking, he is less likely to be suprised by the unexpected, because he expected the unexpected and was prepared to fix it. He knows what happens before what happens happens.
It is possible to be both, it is also possible to lack in one or the other. But it doesn't make you a bad person, which I feel that you guys are making him really sound like


----------



## nrhareiner

NO one is picking on Pat. We are stating facts in evidence. I am stating what I have seen of him in person and on the videos that are posted. Some over the years are even worse then the one posted on here but he has had them taken down b/c they show how truly bad he is and he can not take the criticism.

You asked why. We stated why and give evidence to support the why. The video you posted of the pally again shows how a NON PRO rider is even better then PP who is suppose to be a PRO Trainer. If you can not see the difference then you need to go back and study some more and learn a lot more.


----------



## nrhareiner

Nokotaheaven said:


> But anyways, just one last little thing before I leave this thread... A good horseman, and a good rider, you can be both... But there is a difference between the two. A good rider knows how to sit well in his seat and give cues and commands well... Well a good horseman knows how a horse is feeling and what it's thinking, he is less likely to be suprised by the unexpected, because he expected the unexpected and was prepared to fix it. He knows what happens before what happens happens.
> 
> 
> *Sure then that just shows how bad PP truly is. Being he is the ONLY rider to ever come off his horse at Road To The Horse. If he was this great horseman he would have known what was coming not been surprised and if he had a good seat and would not have come off.*
> It is possible to be both, it is also possible to lack in one or the other. But it doesn't make you a bad person, which I feel that you guys are making him really sound like


Do not think anyone said PP was a bad PERSON. We said he is a bad rider and just an OK trainer.


----------



## waresbear

But he is a superb marketer! No can deny that!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Speed Racer

Absolutely, wares! I am in awe of his mad skillz at marketing!


----------



## kayhmk

nrhareiner said:


> I posted a video of PP doing spins then I posted a video of Shawn doing spins. So you could see what PP was doing and the correct way. yet those who think PP is such a great rider past right over it.


I know, that's why it'd be so awesome to have someone do the whole big ball silliness and the jumpy trot thing too. Maybe then, the same stuff side by side, things would get noticed...

... or maybe not.



Nokotaheaven said:


> And overall his reins were at least about as tight as Pat's were..


In what universe ??!


----------



## tinyliny

I bet if you asked Pat, he would admit to not being the best rider. He rides better than I do. I am not shy to admit that.

Anyway, the original question here was Pat or Clint. We haven't heard much about Clint. Anyone?


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

tinyliny said:


> I bet if you asked Pat, he would admit to not being the best rider. He rides better than I do. I am not shy to admit that.
> 
> Anyway, the original question here was Pat or Clint. We haven't heard much about Clint. Anyone?


Eh. I don't really care for his methods much either...


----------



## nrhareiner

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Eh. I don't really care for his methods much either...


I agree. The bid difference is that at least CA has proven that what he does works.


----------



## bsms

Not long after we got horses, I bought a book by CA. It wasn't bad, but I didn't get much help from it either. Haven't bought anything else from him. 

FWIW, of the DVDs I've bought, I liked Larry Trocha's best. Chris Irwin used to have videos on Statelinetack, and I liked those - particularly for a beginner. I usually think Julie Goodnight has OK stuff. The John Lyons DVDs I bought were OK but not really relevant to my needs. One of his books was better, IMHO.

As someone who started at 50, I think DVD's on *RIDING* would be more helpful to the average beginner than DVDs on *TRAINING*. Larry Trocha has one on basic beginning stuff from a western perspective, and I could have saved myself a lot of trouble and maybe a bad back by watching it before I started riding.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

nrhareiner said:


> I agree. The bid difference is that at least CA has proven that what he does works.


That's true. But there's still a lot of "unessecary" stuff in his methods. But I'm not an NH follower at all, so I dont really care for most of them...


----------



## nrhareiner

For me there is too much "playing" with these guys DVDs. One thing I like about Stacys DVDs is that there is no playing. What she does I have been doing for years before I ever got the DVDs. What they have given me is just the back up for what I was already doing and a bit of more finesse added in on some things. However I would like so see more on different things. She tends, which I agree with, to just hit on certain things with in each set of DVDs. Like one is just on body control. One is just on stops one on ground work one on starting young horses. Each give good info but not complete. Things is I do not think anyone can really give you a complete look at training.

I also like Al Dunning but he tends to only use one horse so you do not see green horses to finished or close to finished horses so I think you loose a bit of needed info there. Stacy tends to use several horses at different levels in hers.

Shawn is more about the mind part of training and showing in his DVDs which I like. It is nice to hear what goes through his mind as he is doing things.

Each of these trainers have one thing in common. They have all proven that what they are talking about works.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Yeah. Proving your training means a lot to me. When I was learning when I was younger, I never watched a DVD on horse training. I had a lot of mentors just in my family and right in my area, I found I could learn a lot more sitting down having a cup of coffee with the old cowboys at the sale yard cafe. So as far as learning from DVDs, it's never really worked much for me.. I've learned through experience and the people around me.


----------



## jaydee

I think CA has an easier way about him, a little rougher around the edges perhaps, what you see is what you get
I cant get sucked into any of them but his riding looks more impressive by far (and hey - I know nothing about western riding)
I watch his TV series sometimes and I dont get the need to desensitise every single horse to the whip as some sort of a 'cure all'
If a horse has never been hit with a whip its not going to see it as a weapon of abuse, if it has been hit with one enough to make if afraid then why would it be disrespectful and lastly if I'm working with some smart *** horse that thinks running over the top of me and taking a flying kick as it passes by is a good idea then I'd much rather it were more than a little bit afraid of the whip
Maybe someone else can explain this?
Really though - what does it matter if I like the individual - I'm not going to be inviting them to dinner let alone sleep with them afterwards am I?


----------



## nrhareiner

I do not like desensitizing a horse. I prefer to get them to the point that they have emotional control. Once they have that they learn how to work through new things much easier. They learn how to deal vs just getting use to certain things.


----------



## NdAppy

Don't care for PP. His methods would make my one mare into a monster and the other confused as heck. 

I take somethings from CA, but only what I can use. I do like his handy stick though... Much better than some of the ones that you can get cheaper. I've had mine for almost three years now. Worked good to whack my paint across the rear when she was threatening to kick me. Hasn't done it since. Most of the time though it sits in my shed as I rarely have any use for it "lol:


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

nrhareiner said:


> I do not like desensitizing a horse. I prefer to get them to the point that they have emotional control. Once they have that they learn how to work through new things much easier. They learn how to deal vs just getting use to certain things.


I agree. I kind of like a snorty spooky horse to an extent. Means they are paying attention and not just plodding around with nothing between their ears.


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## nrhareiner

I look at the DVDs like I do my tools. I do a lot of carpentry. I like to build things. To me DVDs to not teach me to train they just add tools to my tool box. It is like when I go out and buy a new saw. Yes I can cut wood with my circular saw but a compound miter works better. These tools do not teach me to build but they help me do the work needed to build what I want.

Same with these DVDs. They should not be used to teach you to train a horse but simply as tools to make it easier. I look at trainers like PP as framing carpenters. Yes they can build but it is all rough work. I look at trainers like Shawn as Finish carpenters. They have the skills needed to get the fine work done and do the finishing touches. Yes a finish carpenter can build anything from a rough framing but them can also go the extra mile and do the finish work to make it all look really really good and easy. Now a good framing carpenter can make the finish carpenters work easier and a bad one can make the work harder. I look at PP as a bad framing carpenter that makes the finish carpenters work harder.


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## BBBCrone

Dang did this thread get set on fire 

About Clinton Anderson - Now this is coming from ME not my hubby LOL. Hubby usually will say it's not me when he posts but I think sometimes he forgets. He seriously needs to get his own sign in name.

Anyway, on CA, he's okay. There's things I don't necessarily agree with. This "sensitize/desensitize" thing every time you turn around is puzzling to me. I also don't like to use a whip/stick/whatever you call it every single time I do something with my horse. There's times I will use it, times I won't. I don't like to be locked into a certain way.

I will say, he's helped my hubby understand things I can't necessarily explain. I think that's a particular key to his success. He has a way of explaining something that makes sense to people who are struggling with a concept.

I'm not a big fan of "learning by DVD" AT all. But, in the absence of a trainer, I guess it's better than nothing. I know that when hubby is ready, I'll teach him what I can and then pass him off to a trainer where he can take lessons and get a better understanding and get pushed farther than my own knowledge. In fact we'll BOTH probably go because all those little things I've forgotten over the years I'll have to re-learn anyway.


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## tinyliny

I think Bsms made a good point; that videos showing riding would be better for beginners , as opposed to videos for training. Beginners shouldn't really be training in the first place.

however, beginners do need to know how to do the basics of handling their horse safely and without worsening his ground manners. I think that in theory, that's what PP started out trying to do; make horse handling divisible into set skills. It does help a beginner to teach them how to back their horse, or send it arounmd or through a tight place . All of those skills would come into play when taking a horse through a gate, for example. Just having some ability to handle a leadrope is a skill a beginner has to learn. They don't come born being able to do that.

a lot of people get that far and no farther. They aren't horse people. They don't have the kind of life situation that nrharainer or Wanstrom have; horses and more horse all around them and growing up with horses and horse people and mentors gallore. They will never compete. They just want someone to quantify what they need to learn to have at least some better control/relationship with their hobby horse.

And, ya know, that's cool. it's better than blundering around with no help.

So, some go on, learn more and may find that PP's teachings don't cover the width and the breadth of what you need to consider to be a trainer. Then they might change their opinion, and might look farther for more knowledge. But, the got a start.

So, though I am NO pro, no where near as experienced as many riders here, and I can agree with a LOT of what is said about PP producing some problem horses, I will also say that he has helped a lot of horse owners. Just not in the same sphere as those that are here now saying he is a bad rider and they would n't let him on their horse's back and that someday, you'll understand. Try to understand the situation of the hobby horseowner, too. They aren't ready for all that you know. not yet. and may not likely ever get there. I know I won't .


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## Wanstrom Horses

You made a good point there Tiny. I guess in my area, you hardly ever see a hobby horse owner. We all work on horse back. Heck, my hubby rode ponies for the first ten years of his life to the bus stop every day. And it is something that makes me opinion very strong when it comes to DVD clinicians. I guess, in my own opinion and experiences, I see a lot of things in their methods that go against everything I was ever taught about horses. My dad grew up ranching, my mom was a racehorse jockey, my grandpa was a notorious horse trader, my uncle made an honest living training bridle horses, my husband is fourth generation cowboy, and I guess that's all stuff I take for granted. I've never looked at things from another's point of view until I joined this forum. Honestly, I've never been on a trail ride where I wasn't trailing cattle or checking fence or packing salt. I don't understand the hobby horse lifestyle. And I guess that may be something I need to take into consideration when strongly stating my opinion.. But still, I don't like PP. :wink:


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## tinyliny

Well, I've never lived with horse/cattle working people. I would have dearly , dearly loved to, but this was not the life I got borned into.

I think it's good for some of the beginners to hear what more advanced persons think of PP, ,but sometimes, folks need things that are made for them, where they are NOW. in time, they might see different.

And, there are some people who achieve great results with Parelli.

I try to stay open minded when one of my dearest friends talks about her excitement in learning new things, or going to some Parelli clinic. But, I still find it hard to be comfortable with what I see going on with Parelli practicing hobby horse owners (lots of them around here).

But, if I hadn't stumbled into the trainer that I have now, I would not know what I was missing.


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## Padrona

tinyliny said:


> I bet if you asked Pat, he would admit to not being the best rider. He rides better than I do. I am not shy to admit that.
> 
> Anyway, the original question here was Pat or Clint. We haven't heard much about Clint. Anyone?


My opinion is that Clinton Anderson is a bully. I have never seen ONE interaction between CA and a horse that was positive. The horses always look terrified, they are panting and sweating, they are nervous, and they are looking for an ESCAPE AWAY FROM HIM. That's his whole training platform - terrify and exhaust the horse to the point he just does whatever you are forcing him to do just so you'll leave him alone and let him rest. CA's method treats the horse more like a piece of farm machinery than a sentinent being.

I think many people love CA because his heavy handed comandeering type of training is more in line with classical, traditional horsemanship, than with natural horsemanship. If the horse doesn't respond to what you want - just get out a bigger bit! Get a bigger whip and lash him with it harder. Put on a die down. Put a bicycle chain over the nose. Snub him to a post and let him fight until he falls down. That is the type of horsemanship that most people embrace, for reasons unknown to me. 

This month's Horse and Rider magazine has an article on what to do if your horse won't stad for shots for the vet. The short term solutions are twitch, lip chain, sedation, snubbed up to a post..... The only truly KIND and compassionate of those options is sedation. If your horse MUST be vaccinated TODAY for whatever reason, have the vet throw some Ace granuals in the feed, then slip the shot in once he's groggy. But the fact that lip chains and twitches are even used in horse training in the year 2013 is mind boggling to me. Yeah yeah I know all about the "endorphin release" and getting a dangerous horse under control....I still don't agree that some of these harsh techniques are necessary. 

So most people see nothing wrong with CA because his techniques fall in line mostly with that old fashioned mentality that a horse is nothing but a hunk of hide and hair to be dominated and wrestled into submission.

You asked. 

Everyone hates Parelli here, so maybe I'll use Buck Brannaman instead as an example....he is firm and determined without ever getting his own heart rate up. He doesn't chase horses around the round pen or get himself worked into a lathered up tizzy chasing the horse with lariats. He asks for the horse's respect with a sort of quiet, calm, gentle demeanor. 

Mark Rashid talks about the difference in LEAD horses, and DOMINANT horses. Lead horses have that calm, confident temperament that makes members of the herd WANT to follow their authority. The lead horses can direct members of the herd with the slighest flick of an ear. The lead horses in a herd are the strong pillars that reinforce their position only if directly physically challenged. But otherwise, they do not chase or stir up trouble in the herd. Dominant horses are the ones running around stirring up trouble. They are constantly busy. They are always moving, and nit picking other herd members. They create fights and beat other horses into submission with physical force. Dominant horses move a foot and everybody scatters in fear of getting kicked or charged. 

I have a great example of these two types in my own small herd. I have a mare who is a dominant bully. She has to live alone because she will NOT allow other herd members to have peace! She constantly walks around, pushing them out, demanding they move, and is never satisified with what lower ranking herd members are doing. If they are standing over there, then SHE has to go stand over tere and make them move. If they move over here, then SHE has to go stand over here and make them move. if somebody is drinking from the tank, she'll run right over there and demand they get out and leave. She would be the one to inflict physical damage on other horses. 

A gelding that I used to board for a lady was the perfect example of a lead horse. He could stand there like a statue and the herd would move around him. He never chased, charged, or kicked and bit anyone! He could give them a look and they would move their feet. His owner said he's always been number one wherever he was boarded, but it's so weird because he rarely DOES anything! He just stands there and the other horses have total respect for him. But he's a lead horse, versus being a dominant horse. Dominant horses don't necessarily gain respect from herd members. Herd members might FEAR them, but that's not the same as respect. 

CA behaves like a dominant horse. Buck behaves like a lead horse. Same end result but ENTIRELY different path and journey to arrive there. Buck leaves the horse's dignity intact and Clinton breaks the horse down mentally. Buck creates a partner. Clinton creates a machine that goes through the motions.

CA is so busy running around, chasing the horse, driving him, throwing lariats, jumping in front of his flight path, jerking on te lead, throwing his arms up in the air....CA is in a lathered sweat, and so is the horse at the end of darned near every interaction he has with a horse. 

Buck has that quiet, leadership deameanor. He gets into the horse's brain without anybody breaking a sweat. He can stand still and get more done with a horse than Clinton accomplishes running 5 miles around a round pen.


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## gypsygirl

LOL mark rashid ? really ? he cannot ride to save his life and is a horse murderer !


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## HorseCrazyTeen

I do not agree with Padrona, lets just say, but I'm not going to get into it. 

But in any case I have one of Mark Rashid's books, and I really like it. I'm not sure what the horse murderer comment is all about... Now I have to admit I have not actually seen him ride, so if he is a bad rider like Pat someone please correct me.


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## gypsygirl

he starved some draft horses to death. i would never let him near my horse.


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## nrhareiner

Padrona said:


> My opinion is that Clinton Anderson is a bully. I have never seen ONE interaction between CA and a horse that was positive. The horses always look terrified, they are panting and sweating, they are nervous, and they are looking for an ESCAPE AWAY FROM HIM. That's his whole training platform - terrify and exhaust the horse to the point he just does whatever you are forcing him to do just so you'll leave him alone and let him rest. CA's method treats the horse more like a piece of farm machinery than a sentinent being.
> 
> I think many people love CA because his heavy handed comandeering type of training is more in line with classical, traditional horsemanship, than with natural horsemanship.
> *Do not care for CA any more then I do PP. Also what you are seeing is not 100% correct. Will not get into that now.*
> 
> If the horse doesn't respond to what you want - just get out a bigger bit! Get a bigger whip and lash him with it harder. Put on a die down. Put a bicycle chain over the nose. Snub him to a post and let him fight until he falls down. That is the type of horsemanship that most people embrace, for reasons unknown to me.
> 
> *See this is where you do not quite get it. 99% of the trainers I know and use are not HN and yet they use a lot of NH principles as they have been around for longer then any of up. Yet they do NON OF this. It is called proper training by trainers who know what they are doing and have proven they know.*
> 
> This month's Horse and Rider magazine has an article on what to do if your horse won't stad for shots for the vet. The short term solutions are twitch, lip chain, sedation, snubbed up to a post..... The only truly KIND and compassionate of those options is sedation.
> 
> *This is a lack of training from day one. All my foals have learned from day one to have emotional control and to stand still when asked. That translates to under saddle work latter. As for using these things. I had an old mare who LOVED a twitch. She would literally put her lip into the twitch when I would take it out. She would not stand still until you put it on her if you needed to do feet. She was good about being vac and de wormed as they did not take long enough to get what she was after. She knew and she wanted that twitch.* *Sedation can be dangerous. That is 100% my last resort. There are just too many things that can go wrong especially with stallions. *
> 
> If your horse MUST be vaccinated TODAY for whatever reason, have the vet throw some Ace granuals in the feed, then slip the shot in once he's groggy.
> *Will never use ACE for any reason. It is not a safe drug to give a horse even worse for some breeds of dogs. Again this comes down to training. Had a Poco Bueno G-D who when I got her at about 20 years old had never been touched past being pulled out of the 1000+ acre paster at weaning time to be vaccinated and her feet and teeth done. When I got her you had to heard her into and out of her stall. Leave a halter on and yes traq. her to do anything that involved touching her. Took me about a month or 2 and I could catch her anywhere put a halter on her and pick up all 4 feet. I did not use 1 PP or any other NH method. Teaching a horse to do what is needed it not hard. *
> 
> But the fact that lip chains and twitches are even used in horse training in the year 2013 is mind boggling to me. Yeah yeah I know all about the "endorphin release" and getting a dangerous horse under control....I still don't agree that some of these harsh techniques are necessary.
> *Use a chain my my stallion at breeding time. You REALLY want to try and control a stallion when you are under then collecting them with out one? I can lead this stallion through a herd of mares with nothing but a lead rope around his neck. However he has a special halter and the chain goes over his nose he knows it is breeding time. You really need to learn that just like bits and spurs these are tools. When used properly have there place and it has nothing to do with pain.*
> So most people see nothing wrong with CA because his techniques fall in line mostly with that old fashioned mentality that a horse is nothing but a hunk of hide and hair to be dominated and wrestled into submission.
> 
> You asked.
> 
> Everyone hates Parelli here, so maybe I'll use Buck Brannaman instead as an example....he is firm and determined without ever getting his own heart rate up. He doesn't chase horses around the round pen or get himself worked into a lathered up tizzy chasing the horse with lariats. He asks for the horse's respect with a sort of quiet, calm, gentle demeanor.
> 
> Mark Rashid talks about the difference in LEAD horses, and DOMINANT horses. Lead horses have that calm, confident temperament that makes members of the herd WANT to follow their authority. The lead horses can direct members of the herd with the slighest flick of an ear. The lead horses in a herd are the strong pillars that reinforce their position only if directly physically challenged. But otherwise, they do not chase or stir up trouble in the herd. Dominant horses are the ones running around stirring up trouble. They are constantly busy. They are always moving, and nit picking other herd members. They create fights and beat other horses into submission with physical force. Dominant horses move a foot and everybody scatters in fear of getting kicked or charged.
> 
> I have a great example of these two types in my own small herd. I have a mare who is a dominant bully. She has to live alone because she will NOT allow other herd members to have peace! She constantly walks around, pushing them out, demanding they move, and is never satisified with what lower ranking herd members are doing. If they are standing over there, then SHE has to go stand over tere and make them move. If they move over here, then SHE has to go stand over here and make them move. if somebody is drinking from the tank, she'll run right over there and demand they get out and leave. She would be the one to inflict physical damage on other horses.
> 
> *I have a mare who use to be like this. Normal for her breeding. Most Dun It mares are very pushy mares. With good training she now lives with 3-4 other mares with little trouble. When she starts to cause a problem I let her know she is NOT in charge. I AM. All I have to do is yell her name and she will stop. She still lets them know she is next in the pecking order but she no longer chases them over and through fences and so on.*
> 
> A gelding that I used to board for a lady was the perfect example of a lead horse. He could stand there like a statue and the herd would move around him. He never chased, charged, or kicked and bit anyone! He could give them a look and they would move their feet. His owner said he's always been number one wherever he was boarded, but it's so weird because he rarely DOES anything! He just stands there and the other horses have total respect for him. But he's a lead horse, versus being a dominant horse. Dominant horses don't necessarily gain respect from herd members. Herd members might FEAR them, but that's not the same as respect.
> 
> *You can tern your mare into this gelding if you really under stood what was going on. Have done it with several mares over the years.*
> 
> CA behaves like a dominant horse. Buck behaves like a lead horse. Same end result but ENTIRELY different path and journey to arrive there. Buck leaves the horse's dignity intact and Clinton breaks the horse down mentally. Buck creates a partner. Clinton creates a machine that goes through the motions.
> 
> CA is so busy running around, chasing the horse, driving him, throwing lariats, jumping in front of his flight path, jerking on te lead, throwing his arms up in the air....CA is in a lathered sweat, and so is the horse at the end of darned near every interaction he has with a horse.
> 
> Buck has that quiet, leadership deameanor. He gets into the horse's brain without anybody breaking a sweat. He can stand still and get more done with a horse than Clinton accomplishes running 5 miles around a round pen.



At times you much be both the leader and dominant. It just depends on the hose and the situation.


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## HorseCrazyTeen

gypsygirl said:


> he starved some draft horses to death. i would never let him near my horse.


What...? can you please give me a link or something to an article about that?


----------



## bsms

Padrona said:


> My opinion is that Clinton Anderson is a bully. I have never seen ONE interaction between CA and a horse that was positive...
> 
> *Not ONE?*
> 
> I think many people love CA because his heavy handed comandeering type of training is more in line with classical, traditional horsemanship, than with natural horsemanship. If the horse doesn't respond to what you want - just get out a bigger bit! Get a bigger whip and lash him with it harder. Put on a die down. Put a bicycle chain over the nose. Snub him to a post and let him fight until he falls down. That is the type of horsemanship that most people embrace, for reasons unknown to me.
> *
> Gotta waive the BS flag on this! That doesn't describe any horse training I've seen, apart from snubbing to a post and letting the horse figure out he isn't going anywhere. And THAT is a pretty useful thing for a horse to learn.
> 
> But I haven't seen ANYONE grab "a bigger whip and lash him with it harder". Ever. And I have never read a book or seen a DVD suggesting it. The one exception is for a dangerous horse - one who is willing to attack and try to kill a trainer. And no, I don't think Pat Parelli would climb into a pen with a horse like that and rely on his carrot stick. The trainer who worked with my horses told me about seeing a horse try to kill a trainer. A bunch of them jumped in and beat the horse back with anything they could grab, but the woman was nearly killed. That isn't carrot stick time...*
> 
> This month's Horse and Rider magazine has an article on what to do if your horse won't stad for shots for the vet. The short term solutions are twitch, lip chain, sedation, snubbed up to a post..... The only truly KIND and compassionate of those options is sedation...
> 
> *A twitch probably has less chance of serious side effects (death) than sedation does. I had a vet who wanted to sedate Mia with a shot once, but she was too afraid of Mia to chance giving the shot...and Mia is NOT a mean horse.*
> 
> So most people see nothing wrong with CA because his techniques fall in line mostly with that old fashioned mentality that a horse is nothing but a hunk of hide and hair to be dominated and wrestled into submission.
> *
> Give me a break! I'm not a Clinton fan, but that doesn't mean dominating a horse is always wrong, either. Mia is a dominant horse. She has no respect for those who are intimidated by her. She won't attack them - she isn't mean. But she won't respect and cooperate with someone who is intimidated by her.
> 
> I've "abused" Mia. I've made her run until sweat was pouring off her face and her body was covered with lather. I had given her many chances to call it quits, and she wasn't willing to give in. Not until she understood that I would push her until one of us dropped. Then and only then was she willing to take me seriously.*
> *
> Mia wants a dominant rider. That does not in any way suggest that I think she is just a chunk of hair and hide. From the moment I met her, I liked her. She was a horrible choice for a brand new rider, but I wanted her within minutes of meeting her. The trainer who worked with her last year said Mia was lucky to run into me, because she had a lot of clients who would have sent her to the auction long ago.
> 
> But if you aren't willing to look her in the eye and shout, "Just who in the hell do you think you are?" - and back it up with action - then you are just copping a ride. You're a sitter, not a rider. I don't think Mia would ever intentionally hurt a human. She isn't mean. But she won't respect anyone who isn't at least as strong-willed as she is.*
> 
> You asked.
> 
> Everyone hates Parelli here, so maybe I'll use Buck Brannaman instead as an example....he is firm and determined without ever getting his own heart rate up. He doesn't chase horses around the round pen or get himself worked into a lathered up tizzy chasing the horse with lariats. He asks for the horse's respect with a sort of quiet, calm, gentle demeanor...
> *
> And if I had as much experience with horses as he does, maybe I could imitate him. Or maybe it is a function of his basic personality. Horses respond to the truth. But Buck also isn't afraid of horses, and a LOT of the middle-aged women who take up horses are afraid of them. Maybe a lot of men who take up horses late in life are too. But horses don't respond well to fear. Maybe some of the value of that dominant behavior is that it teaches the human to stop being afraid and to be more controlling - because the horses I've met LIKE someone who is strong.*
> 
> Mark Rashid talks about the difference in LEAD horses, and DOMINANT horses. Lead horses have that calm, confident temperament that makes members of the herd WANT to follow their authority. The lead horses can direct members of the herd with the slighest flick of an ear. The lead horses in a herd are the strong pillars that reinforce their position only if directly physically challenged. But otherwise, they do not chase or stir up trouble in the herd. Dominant horses are the ones running around stirring up trouble. They are constantly busy. They are always moving, and nit picking other herd members. They create fights and beat other horses into submission with physical force. Dominant horses move a foot and everybody scatters in fear of getting kicked or charged.
> *
> No one I've met, read, or watched advocates cruelty or mindless violence. When I walk into the corral with food, the horses get out of my way. If they don't, a glance will make them move. Why? Because I bring the food in on a fork, and a horse who refuses to get out of my way will get a fork in the ribs or butt.
> 
> A bully horse acts mean without reason. A dominant horse has a reason. And in my dealings with horses, if I get mad, there is a reason. And the horses know that...*
> 
> CA behaves like a dominant horse. Buck behaves like a lead horse. Same end result but ENTIRELY different path and journey to arrive there. Buck leaves the horse's dignity intact and Clinton breaks the horse down mentally. Buck creates a partner. Clinton creates a machine that goes through the motions...
> 
> *Sorry, but very few people who watch Anderson agree. I'm very dominant with Mia, but that dominance creates a partnership - one that would not exist if I wasn't dominant. I take a very different approach with Trooper, because he's a different horse.*
> 
> ...He can stand still and get more done with a horse than Clinton accomplishes running 5 miles around a round pen.


I guess the bottom line is that whenever we have these polls, the clear majority say that CA's methods work for them better than Parelli's - by a 42 to 9 margin in a recent thread. I would avoid buying any horse trained according to some DVD trainer, but if I had to choose between a Parelli horse and a CA horse, I'd get the latter - because most folks say they get better results using his methods than Parelli's.


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## HorseCrazyTeen

I COMPLETELY agree with bsms. Except that I _am_ a fan of Anderson's.


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## tinyliny

I appreciate Padrona's comments on CA. I got the very same impression from watching him work his colt at the 2011 Road to the Horse (on dvd, not in person).


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## nikyplushbreyer

ok cool soooo we all have different opinions now who like guy mclean?


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## GotaDunQH

I skipped some of the comments, and will go back and read them. But my vote is neither one of them. Neither of them can train a WP horse to save their lives, and Pat can't ride worth a lick.


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## TheAQHAGirl

All the horse's I've seen trained by Pat or by his program are always on top of them. They don't give two craps about the handler.

There is a Parelli trainer by our area. I was driving by and I saw him in the field with a couple flakes of hay. His horse's were literally climbing over him.

Then there is my friend who uses Clinton's techniques. Her horse's (and her husband's) are just wonderful. They don't jump ontop of her or anything. IMO Clinton's approaches are much more realistic. 

I'd chose Clinton over Pat any day.


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## gypsygirl

HorseCrazyTeen said:


> What...? can you please give me a link or something to an article about that?


i dont know of any, i didnt find this info online. 

someone i know used to work with him and with PP when they were all younger. mark and my friend worked together at the time this happened.


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## Kathe Smothers

Buck Brannaman all the way


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## nrhareiner

How about a good proven trainer that you can go take lessons with and can actually watch you ride and either train you horse or help you train your horse. Much better way to go and much much better for the horse.


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## HorseCrazyTeen

gypsygirl said:


> i dont know of any, i didnt find this info online.
> 
> someone i know used to work with him and with PP when they were all younger. mark and my friend worked together at the time this happened.


Oh I see. Well, if that's true - and I'm not questioning you - than that's just dispicable. BUT either way, he has good training methods and ideas, imo. I love the book of his that I own and he has an interesting, engaging way of writing. I'll take what I like from him.


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## gypsygirl

nrhareiner said:


> How about a good proven trainer that you can go take lessons with and can actually watch you ride and either train you horse or help you train your horse. Much better way to go and much much better for the horse.


when my horse was an unbroke 3yo i didnt have someone to help me on a regular basis. watching CA dvds on ground work helped me greatly to get my horse ready to ride. she went from not knowing how to lead to w/t/c undersaddle in 35 days, with no trainer but me. i have not backed a horse myself before her and im not a professional and this was a pretty big accomplishment for me. i now have a great horse due to my hard work and commitment, but we wouldnt be where we are now if not for CA. people at my barn are either the backyard type or the DQ type. neither of these types are known for good ground training [no offence to backyard ppl or dressage queens, just my personal experience] in 2 weeks my horse was better on the ground than anyone elses.


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## HorseCrazyTeen

CA has helped me so much, also. He is a really great people trainer.


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## Kathe Smothers

I agree. It is important to find someone who will help you with your horse and your own skills. I personally don't like takeing a horse in training unless I am working with the human too. I insist on teaching the humans the grounwork and having them have a total understanding of the horse. The horse is going to learn quicker than the human and everyone needs to be on the same page. Going to Buck's clinics and watching his videos can really help you. There is a new video out called 7 Clinics With Buck. It is just like being at a clinic in your livingroom. Well worth the money and will help you advance your horsemanship knowledge. Buck has been my mentor for 21 years. He teaches what is suiting for the horse and keeps the human safe. I went to an equine school for 3 years and always felt something was missing from my program and when I met Buck I knew what is was. The connection, respect and understanding that can be created between the horse and human. But research any trainer you work with to make sure they are teaching what you are interesed in learning for yourself and your horse.


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## nikyplushbreyer

well my horse was a total kicking machine then i trained him using PP stuff and he is perfect soooo that tells you that pat's stuff works too


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## nrhareiner

nikyplushbreyer said:


> well my horse was a total kicking machine then i trained him using PP stuff and he is perfect soooo that tells you that pat's stuff works too


Ya when I got Mia at 4 months old she was a "kicking machine" too. Fixed it in 2 hours with out PP, CA or any other running around. Kicking is not a hard fix 98% of the time. 

It is not PP or any other trainers "Program" that works. It is simply working with a horse that has problems the correct way. My problem with PP and CA and a lot of the others past the marketing is the fact that they try and sell you on a "Program" You do not need a program you just need the "Tools" If you get some of those "Tools" from PP or CA fine. However past that....


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## COWCHICK77

Padrona said:


> My opinion is that Clinton Anderson is a bully. I have never seen ONE interaction between CA and a horse that was positive. The horses always look terrified, they are panting and sweating, they are nervous, and they are looking for an ESCAPE AWAY FROM HIM. That's his whole training platform - terrify and exhaust the horse to the point he just does whatever you are forcing him to do just so you'll leave him alone and let him rest. CA's method treats the horse more like a piece of farm machinery than a sentinent being.
> 
> I think many people love CA because his heavy handed comandeering type of training is more in line with classical, traditional horsemanship, than with natural horsemanship. If the horse doesn't respond to what you want - just get out a bigger bit! Get a bigger whip and lash him with it harder. Put on a die down. Put a bicycle chain over the nose. Snub him to a post and let him fight until he falls down. That is the type of horsemanship that most people embrace, for reasons unknown to me.
> 
> *Getting a bigger bit or whipping a horse is not necessarily "traditional" horsemanship!
> Yes, there are times a horse needs his *** spanked whether it be traditional or natural, but knowing how much and when* *is the key to it being effective rather than creating other issues. *
> 
> This month's Horse and Rider magazine has an article on what to do if your horse won't stad for shots for the vet. The short term solutions are twitch, lip chain, sedation, snubbed up to a post..... The only truly KIND and compassionate of those options is sedation. If your horse MUST be vaccinated TODAY for whatever reason, have the vet throw some Ace granuals in the feed, then slip the shot in once he's groggy. But the fact that lip chains and twitches are even used in horse training in the year 2013 is mind boggling to me. Yeah yeah I know all about the "endorphin release" and getting a dangerous horse under control....I still don't agree that some of these harsh techniques are necessary.
> 
> *Twitching is not traumatic or abusive if done correctly. I have not had to twitch a horse for several years but I do keep one on hand. And I always rub the mouth and lips before/afterwards to ensure the is not "mouth shy". Ace-ing a horse is no different than twitching or or using a gum-line. Both Ace-ing and twitching are a short fix to get a necessary job done when training has been lacking.
> For me, I have found cupping the eye so the horse can not see the needle/syringe* *and forehead tapping enough to distract the mind has been the most effective for horses that may be a little needle soured.*
> 
> So most people see nothing wrong with CA because his techniques fall in line mostly with that old fashioned mentality that a horse is nothing but a hunk of hide and hair to be dominated and wrestled into submission.
> 
> You asked.
> 
> Everyone hates Parelli here, so maybe I'll use Buck Brannaman instead as an example....he is firm and determined without ever getting his own heart rate up. He doesn't chase horses around the round pen or get himself worked into a lathered up tizzy chasing the horse with lariats. He asks for the horse's respect with a sort of quiet, calm, gentle demeanor.
> 
> Mark Rashid talks about the difference in LEAD horses, and DOMINANT horses. Lead horses have that calm, confident temperament that makes members of the herd WANT to follow their authority. The lead horses can direct members of the herd with the slighest flick of an ear. The lead horses in a herd are the strong pillars that reinforce their position only if directly physically challenged. But otherwise, they do not chase or stir up trouble in the herd. Dominant horses are the ones running around stirring up trouble. They are constantly busy. They are always moving, and nit picking other herd members. They create fights and beat other horses into submission with physical force. Dominant horses move a foot and everybody scatters in fear of getting kicked or charged.
> 
> I have a great example of these two types in my own small herd. I have a mare who is a dominant bully. She has to live alone because she will NOT allow other herd members to have peace! She constantly walks around, pushing them out, demanding they move, and is never satisified with what lower ranking herd members are doing. If they are standing over there, then SHE has to go stand over tere and make them move. If they move over here, then SHE has to go stand over here and make them move. if somebody is drinking from the tank, she'll run right over there and demand they get out and leave. She would be the one to inflict physical damage on other horses.
> 
> A gelding that I used to board for a lady was the perfect example of a lead horse. He could stand there like a statue and the herd would move around him. He never chased, charged, or kicked and bit anyone! He could give them a look and they would move their feet. His owner said he's always been number one wherever he was boarded, but it's so weird because he rarely DOES anything! He just stands there and the other horses have total respect for him. But he's a lead horse, versus being a dominant horse. Dominant horses don't necessarily gain respect from herd members. Herd members might FEAR them, but that's not the same as respect.
> 
> CA behaves like a dominant horse. Buck behaves like a lead horse. Same end result but ENTIRELY different path and journey to arrive there. Buck leaves the horse's dignity intact and Clinton breaks the horse down mentally. Buck creates a partner. Clinton creates a machine that goes through the motions.
> 
> CA is so busy running around, chasing the horse, driving him, throwing lariats, jumping in front of his flight path, jerking on te lead, throwing his arms up in the air....CA is in a lathered sweat, and so is the horse at the end of darned near every interaction he has with a horse.
> 
> Buck has that quiet, leadership deameanor. He gets into the horse's brain without anybody breaking a sweat. He can stand still and get more done with a horse than Clinton accomplishes running 5 miles around a round pen.


*I am not a fan of Clinton Anderson either. 
To me he looks like a bull in a china shop, even with his more broke horses. And I am really tired of the over flexing.
I have tried watching his stuff and was completely irritated when I heard him explain basically(from what I gathered) that he likes to over exaggerate his cues so if things get heated or things are working fast the horse does not get worried.
Of course a horse should be well trained and be accepting of cues but it is our responsibility as the rider to stay out of the horses way and be as subtle as possible. If a horse has been trained correctly, accepts and understands but over reacts to a cue then that should tell me to tone it down- I over cued**! I do not need to desensitize my horse even more to just ignore my over cueing. That just seems plain ignorant to me.
*


----------



## HorseCrazyTeen

^^^ I realise what you are saying, and I agree with you, but do remember he said to over cue _in the beginning_, and get more and more subtle over time. And it is depending on how the individual horse responds. Not to just keep on over cueing no matter what. Notice him ride his trained horses--he doesn't over cue.


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## MakeYourMark

Neither...


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## COWCHICK77

HorseCrazyTeen said:


> ^^^ I realise what you are saying, and I agree with you, but do remember he said to over cue _in the beginning_, and get more and more subtle over time. And it is depending on how the individual horse responds. Not to just keep on over cueing no matter what. Notice him ride his trained horses--he doesn't over cue.


I do understand that.
Cueing should be done only to the the extent that the horse understands not to to the point where he is oversensitized to the riders mistakes.


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## gogaited

Plint. Or Clat. Decisions, decisions.


----------



## ponyface

I don't agree with strict "training methods" to begin with. Every horse is different and every horse needs discipline or lack of it to a different extent. Parelli gives the horse too much freedom, CA is too quick to discipline them. in my opinion. if i had to pick one of the two...nevermind, i'd just train my own horse, thanks  now mind you, this is just my _opinion_, i know not everyone knows enough to train their own horse so nobody get on my case about it!


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## Jensride

Clinton Anderson's program is amazing. I achieved more out of my horse than I ever thought I would in such a short time. It got my 17 hand quarter horse off his forehand and he developed beautiful self carriage. I ride him constantly on the buckle now even on the trails!! our relationship couldn't be better. I ride hunters.... Clintons methods help any horse no matter the discipline.
Don't judge on their personality.... Judge on results! Do you want to ride your horse confidently or play games with him? I choose riding


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## EliRose

This thread is fascinating . . . :shock:

I cannot stand PP, but I don't like CA all that much either. Of all of the BNTs, I generally prefer Monty Roberts or Buck, although I certainly don't agree with all of what they say.


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## HorseCrazyTeen

COWCHICK77 said:


> I do understand that.
> Cueing should be done only to the the extent that the horse understands not to to the point where he is oversensitized to the riders mistakes.


 Exactly.


----------



## Jensride

I love Monty Roberts! His was the first book I ever read on natural horsemanship.
I just ended up working the CA program cuz my friend had all the tapes, so we did it together and I payed nothing!!!! I had a completely different horse when I was done, and can now help friends with their issues ect....so for me it was a blessing


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## nikyplushbreyer

who like guy mclean


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## COWCHICK77

Never heard of him... had to google it. Looks like another wanting to make a buck. I am so over the clinician crap. 
Others have said this, nothing wrong with watching videos for ideas and additional information but rather than spending a chunk of money on clinician specific gear and club memberships look at a trainer close to you to ride with. One on one teaching will do so much more than trying simulate a method seen on TV.
Don"t get me wrong, I enjoy absorbing all sorts of information but I get the most from riding with a trainer, that is when I see results.


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## EliRose

Meh, Guy McLean is a performer. I consider him to be on the same level as Tommie Turvey. Entertaining, but I wouldn't really take anything from him.


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## nikyplushbreyer

ya but they are good riders


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## COWCHICK77

A good rider doesn't always equal a good trainer.


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## nikyplushbreyer

i wasn't saying he was a good trainer... where did i say he was a good trainer i was saying he was a good rider


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## HorseCrazyTeen

Well... this is in the horse TRAINERS forum, so...^^^


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## COWCHICK77

nikyplushbreyer said:


> i wasn't saying he was a good trainer... where did i say he was a good trainer i was saying he was a good rider



The guy is hanging his shingle out as a trainer/clinician and you say he is a good rider. That may be true, but that doesn't mean he is a good trainer. Two different classes in my opinion. The thread was about Pat Or Clint, who are clinicians calling themselves trainers, then you add Guy McLean...just putting two and two together, it's simple addition not calculus...


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## Wanstrom Horses

There are other great clinician trainers that don't have a big name, nor will ever really be"out there" as much as PP, CA, or others, but are 10 times the horsemen. Take Ty Heth for example. He does a few clinics here and there, but he is still training horses one on one for the public, and not with a camera strapped to his hat brim to try and prove something..


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## nikyplushbreyer

PP nor CA have models after their horses like Guy does and he is on tour allot but i still was not saying he was a trainer i was just asking who liked him


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## EliRose

nikyplushbreyer said:


> PP nor CA have models after their horses like Guy does and he is on tour allot but i still was not saying he was a trainer i was just asking who liked him


Explaining what you mean, in the appropriate place, with proper punctuation would really be helpful.

What do you "have models after their horses"? BREYER models? And McLean is on tour because he is a part of Theatre Equus.


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## soenjer55

I have never been attracted to either of these trainers, or most any big name trainer, because just watching a DVD or a clinic from a bleacher seat just doesn't work for me. My learning style requires that I have a trainer standing in the middle of the arena yelling every bit of my faults straight into my ear, because I thrive with correction the second I make an error. I'm an "in the moment" learner, ha ha. I'm at this weird place where I have enough raw horse experience, but need fine tuning, if that makes sense... 'educational videos' are usually more of a confirmation of my knowledge than anything else, kind of a shape put to what I figured out or noticed on my own.
It doesn't really matter who the trainer is, watching a DVD series just doesn't appeal to me as a way to learn- they do not/ cannot take into account the fact that horses and people are individuals who learn and react differently. You can go through the exact motions that you see on the DVD, but how will you know for sure that you are doing it correctly? It's like learning how to do a proper push up from the internet. You can make it look like a push up, but that doesn't mean it's actually a push up. What if your horse doesn't respond well to what you're doing? How will you know if it's you or the horse? Is your horse disrespecting you, or are they genuinely puzzled? This is really just how I learn, but if a trainer is not handy (which was the case for pretty much all of my life and even now, my lessons are quite erratic due to lack of funds and time) I have found that any help I have ever needed either came from my horses' not so subtle queues/ trial and error experience, watching 3 minute youtube videos to point me in the general direction, or just reading. I have never, ever, felt the need to adhere to a specific training program, especially one as general as the ones from the BNTs.
My sister is getting into Parelli, and she has been adamantly trying to show me videos and convince me that he's worth while, to no avail. The more I watch, the more put off I am- not only by the fact that 90% is purely for marketing purposes and to make him look like the Second Coming of the horse world, or that most of it is fluff and games, but that most of the stuff he does is unnecessary in my opinion and not as effective as other methods I have encountered. (I'm sorry, OP and other Parelli fans, but I really just don't like what I see at all, trainer or horseman... Just my honest opinion.)
And if anyone has had success with either Pat or Clint, I'm happy for you, it's good that you found a method that works for both you and your horse. I just personally don't like either much.
I do like a lot more of what I see from Buck Branaman, though. Not enough to follow him religiously, I don't think there's anyone I care to follow, but I do like him. I like him as a person, a rider, and a trainer. He has much less marketing fluff, he seems to be in it to train people and horses, and that's what I like to see. I'm really not knowledgeable on many trainers, so I really don't have much else to contribute, sorry!


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## EliRose

soenjer55 said:


> It doesn't really matter who the trainer is, watching a DVD series just doesn't appeal to me as a way to learn- they do not/ cannot take into account the fact that horses and people are individuals who learn and react differently. You can go through the exact motions that you see on the DVD, but how will you know for sure that you are doing it correctly? It's like learning how to do a proper push up from the internet. You can make it look like a push up, but that doesn't mean it's actually a push up. What if your horse doesn't respond well to what you're doing? How will you know if it's you or the horse? Is your horse disrespecting you, or are they genuinely puzzled?


^^THIS. So much.

That is actually an argument I use for Caesar Milan and the like .


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## cpr saves

I have watched PP since he started coming to the US in the early 80's. He was all "buy my stuff" then as is now. A lot of stuff, not so much substance.

I have seen CA since he was about 12. At least that's what he looked like. Very early on, in other words. Will never forget him saying that, regardless of what ANY other trainer tells you, the fact of the matter is, that horses only learn as a result of pain. I KID you Not!

I am pretty sure that over the years, he found that to be not such a good thing to tell most horse owners, as you won't hear him say it now. But I know that is what is underneath his act.

I have also observed both PP and CA trainers and not been impressed with any of them. 

Conclusion: I would never let either one of them (or their wannabe's) touch one of my horses. 

Recommendation: For a breath of fresh air and someone who is the Real Deal - more about true horsemanship and not himself - try Mark Rashid. His books are awesome! He doesn't have a ton of dvd's because he's just not into the whole Buy-my-crap machine. If you are lucky enough to audit a clinic, you'll be amazed at what you have learned. Start out with "Consider the Horse" and let yourself enjoy what horsemanship should be all about.

IMHO (Also, I have no connection to Mark Rashid other than being a grateful follower.)


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## HorseCrazyTeen

I have the book "Consider the Horse" too. I love it! 

I don't like PP one bit, but what I have used of CA's method has worked great for me.


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## AllieJ333

I wouldn't let either of them anywhere near my horse!


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## wausuaw

I think most trainers have something to offer, but I think Clint's way is more adaptable to various horses and situations and has a bit more of a straightforward approach toward the horse (less tendency to give mixed signals). Though, I also think that people can use his method easily to abuse a horse that is fearful, and confuse fearful responses with disrespectful/aggressive horses (such as with horses that have been abused and learned aggression response vs. horses that have been spoiled and learned the same- the approach is a little bit different). 

So far as who I'd like to ride my horse? My mare would teach either one of them a good lesson in humility because she really seems to have the mindset of "I gave you the right to work with me, so work with me right" (and your privileges may be revoked at any time if you get cocky about it, I'm still bigger than you"

(She really is a very sweet, willing horse, just a little peculiar.)


----------



## AllieJ333

kayhmk said:


> I know, that's why it'd be so awesome to have someone do the whole big ball silliness and the jumpy trot thing too. Maybe then, the same stuff side by side, things would get noticed...
> 
> ... or maybe not.
> 
> If you want to see the "jumpy trot thing" done correctly, just look up piaffe on Youtube.


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## Dreamers Mom

While I respect people who train horses for a living, I choose not to stick to one person. I couldn't say I'm a Parelli fan, a Clint fan, a Buck fan or any of those people. It's not that i don't believe them, I just choose not to idolize any one. I like to take a little bit from all kinds of people and bring it together into a method that works for me. I get just as good training advice from my friends who ride as I do from attending workshops, reading books and watching videos. And I save money.


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## Sharond

Hello, I'm new to this forum and am looking forward to learning from everyone here! I ride huntseat, mainly trail ride now but used to fox hunt and show. I attended a 3 day clinic in Gay, Ga with Chris Cox in Nov, 2012 and it was the most amazing experience with my horse ever! I've seen PP on TV and on a tour stop, I just don't like how he rhymes everything and the whole monster-production/light show blaring music crap. Saw CA on a tour stop 2 years ago and liked what he did with the horses those two days but he is very expensive. Saw CC a year ago and I think he is more humble and down to earth. I will say I think CC explains things to the people he's working with a little better than CC, but once you watch CC on RFDTV you figure out his lingo for what he wants you to do. I am living for the day I cn do a 5 day clinic with CC!


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## Shoebox

Wow. I learned a lot from this thread. I didn't really know much about either trainer (as I don't really stick to just one person) but I have to say I do not really care for either of them at this point. I'll have to spend a day looking at videos of different trainers!

As for the arguments about it - It seems that the younger riders (I know at least one poster on this thread is 12) are very stuck in their opinions even though the older seasoned riders point out very valid flaws. I think that, as they grow older and get more training, it'll be easier to see the problems Pat has with his riding. (And I only say Pat because that was a majority of the argument). I'm sure quite a few of us knew it all when we were young, too


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Oh hell, when I was 13, no one could tell me anything, and all through high school i was stubborn and stuck in my ways. Then when my parents kicked me out I got a big wake up call and a good thump from reality, took to my horses for a living and realized everything I had been doing wrong. :lol:


----------



## equitate

Interesting that PP says a partner walks beside you and yet trains the horse to walk behind the handler. 

From knowing pp/jl/ca/cc personally, I would take cc if I had to choose. NO way it would be pp or jl. Are they all horsemen in the first place? Yes, that's how they got their starts. But the $$ machines took over from common sense. And imho the three day break the horse and show us shows the nature of the riders, that they will sacrifice for a win. Too many of the methods tend to 'truncate' the neck for my purposes (the whole horse in alignment/dressage). But the entire way of reining has changed over the years (I rode top western eq/etc). One used to spin around in hindlegs. Now the hind is pushing backwards, and the necks dropped in a slide rather than arced. Try stopping a real cow with straightened hindlegs and a low neck....the horse would be pulled along since they are onto the forelegs and have no folding of the hindleg joints.


----------



## kayhmk

AllieJ333 said:


> If you want to see the "jumpy trot thing" done correctly, just look up piaffe on Youtube.


Oh that's what it's supposed to be? I couldn't even tell!

Seriously, I thought it was some sort of Stomp The Ground Ambling Dance Movement(TM) thingy.


----------



## HorseCrazyTeen

kayhmk said:


> Seriously, I thought it was some sort of _Stomp The Ground Ambling Dance Movement(TM) thingy._


 :rofl::rofl::rofl: Haha! Sorry but that's funny...


----------



## COWCHICK77

Shoebox said:


> As for the arguments about it - It seems that the younger riders (I know at least one poster on this thread is 12) are very stuck in their opinions even though the older seasoned riders point out very valid flaws. I think that, as they grow older and get more training, it'll be easier to see the problems Pat has with his riding. (And I only say Pat because that was a majority of the argument). I'm sure quite a few of us knew it all when we were young, too


I figure if someone is young enough to be a Justin Bieber fan they haven't been "training" horses long enough to know...


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## Wanstrom Horses

Hey hey, what if I'm a JB fan!!! :rofl: Haha, just kidding. Dave Stamey and Adrian Brannan are more my style. :lol:


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## COWCHICK77

^^^ LOL! I had to explain to hubby who Justin Bieber was the other day, so does that make me just as guilty because I knew???


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## Wanstrom Horses

I'd just call that "educated in the ways of the world" lol! My hubby probably wouldn't know either


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## COWCHICK77

Oh, okay, I was kinda worried ....tee he


----------



## dknatura

I do have to shout out loud here: 'a stubborn horse walks behind you, an impatient horse walks in front of you, but a noble horse walks right beside you' - sorry, but what nonsense is that :shock:??? I have studied the horse's language for years, and this statement is sentimental, humanized, amateurish and has nothing to do with the horse's natural communication. Is this a comment from Pat Parelli? I am very surprised if it is, because I thought he at least knew about horse language :?! In a horse herd the front horse is the lead mare - she shows the way. All horses in the group behind her are more or less equal, they walk beside each other and the lead stallion is in principle behind the group (The foals are walking very closely beside their mother or behind her, but that is another story because they are under her protection and have a special status in this way). So a trustful, confident and noble horse may be either in front of you or behind you - both can mean that you are in a dominant position, though of course also both positions can be forced through by using predatorlike behaviour as is so often done in Natural Horsemanship based training. But if a horse walks beside the person it is either saying - hey dude - we are equal so right now lets walk the same way as long as I like it, or it is simply mentally dead. In the case of Pat Parelli I will bet that it is mentally dead after having been sent round and round by the predator until giving up its spirit. Folks, I know it looks convincing but try to sense the horse - try to see the expression in the eyes - or the lack of expression  - they are simply not there! They even drag their feet after them because there is no life spirit left - even by riding they do it, and their norses are nearly in the dust. Are they proud horses? I would not let any of these prats near any horse at all - end of story!
And if you need some comparisment in order to see the difference, have a look at the way Klaus Hempfling works 



 - with him the horses are alive, they are powerful, they are feeling great and strong, but they respect him as the ultimate leader, and then also give him the complete responsibility of their life - which is exactly what we have and therefore we have to be so extremeley careful what we do to our horses. We need to treat them with respect!


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## Wanstrom Horses

Looks like a good way to get your head pawed in or trampled.. I know that horse couldn't get a days work done for me. I wouldn't own him if you paid me..


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## GallopingGuitarist

Best trained horse I had would walk right beside me. I knew where he was at all times, he didn't spook and run into me, and we had a wonderful relationship. I was the leader and he helped me do what I needed to do. Whether that was bringing in 15 milk cows/nurse cows morning and night (with a saddle or bareback), going for a 10 mile ride for the fun of it, ponying unbroke horses for their first ride, pulling firewood out of the bush, moving calves, or when I put one of my siblings on his back for ride. 
I trained this horse to walk beside me while I was feeding the herd of horses their oats. We had 13 head of horses ranging from 8 to yearlings. They were pretty frisky at feeding time running around and bucking/kicking. There were a few (not mine) that were known to kick at people. I would put my gelding, Zayn, (lead horse at the time) at my side so the other horses wouldn't challenge me. When I ended up selling him, I trained the next lead horse to do this. I found it the safest way to handle the herd. 
So after all those stories (sorry), I find the safest place for my horse is right at my side.


----------



## BBBCrone

Well - nice pan flute music *shrugs*


----------



## tinyliny

I want a lungewhip like that. Know where I can get one?


----------



## Muppetgirl

COWCHICK77 said:


> I figure if someone is young enough to be a Justin Bieber fan they haven't been "training" horses long enough to know...


Ok.....

Bieber or ??????

:hide:fftopic:


----------



## LoveMyDrummerBoy

nikyplushbreyer said:


> PP nor CA have models after their horses like Guy does and he is on tour allot but i still was not saying he was a trainer i was just asking who liked him


I have little room to talk, as I joined this forum at a younger age than maybe desired by most members. 

But, PLEASE give at least a little more consideration to spelling and grammar. I think that you will come to find that not only will more people actually take you seriously, but that your age will not show nearly as much as it does right now. 

This is a happy forum, of which we all share our own intellect and debate, and I am not a grammar nazi, but this also comes with a trade-off of which we respect each other with consideration of our ability to read. :shock:

Whew, rant over.


----------



## COWCHICK77

tinyliny said:


> I want a lungewhip like that. Know where I can get one?


Tiny, it looks like a broken fishing pole to me :lol:



Muppetgirl said:


> Ok.....
> 
> Bieber or ??????
> 
> :hide:fftopic:


LOL! Selena Gomez?


About the Hempfling video....

I guess I just don't see the appeal and "majik" with these types of videos. It is way too Black Stallion-ish for me.


----------



## GallopingGuitarist

It's seems like a lot of natural horsemanship trainers put across the feeling like 'if you follow my program you'll never have problem horse and everything will fit in together perfectly.' Not all of them but I get that feeling with a lot of them. I'll tell you, (and most of you know this) even if you do try 'natural horsemanship' it's a LOT of hard work! And guess what, you still get problems and problem horses. 

I think a lot of horse problems stem from not working and not having something to do. The times my horses behaved the best and came to me to get caught, was when I was riding every day, sometimes twice a day. They'd nicker when they saw me coming and would run over to me. 

So I gathered that horses enjoy working and having purpose as much as people do. We all feel better if we do a day's work (physical or mental work) instead of sittting around and doing nothing. 
My conclusion would be that which ever you do (NH or not), and who ever you 'follow', you still have a lot of work ahead of you and you must 'eat the meat and spit out the bones' in any method. 
Hope you could follow that!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dknatura

I think the word Natural Horsemanship implies that we should be talking about speaking a natural language with the horses, and personally I think it should be the horse's language, not the predator versus prey which is the case with both Pat and Clint. But of course they are good at getting a horse to just 'function' and if that is the issue - OK - go ahead. But I think the ultimate natural horsemanahip must the kind where the horse chooses to be with the human being and has fun together with the human - but still respects him. And if you try to look at the Hempfling video with an open mind (taking off the cowboy boots and hat for a few minutes) then you will notice how respectfully this horse is 'playing' with his master. But I can imagine you would not like to own him, because certainly that is a stallion with character and spirit, and I guess that is often unwanted. But why then bother about being natural???


----------



## dknatura

By the way TinyLiny - that lungewhip is for cart-driving and it is very, very good for liberty work (there are many bad ones but look for one which is medium flexible) - unfortunately I only know where to purchase them in Europe but if you want a link let me know.


----------



## BBBCrone

dknatura said:


> But I can imagine you would not like to own him, because certainly that is a stallion with character and spirit, and I guess that is often unwanted.


Clearly! Nobody here wants character and spirit in their stallions. Nope, no sir. And besides, it's impossible to achieve unless they are flitting about like in the video.



> But why then bother about being natural???


Good question! Because if we are being truthful about it, natural would mean that none of us would even have horses. They'd be out running about across the wild prairie and this guy you like so much would be using that pole to fish or something.


----------



## tinyliny

dknatura said:


> By the way TinyLiny - that lungewhip is for cart-driving and it is very, very good for liberty work (there are many bad ones but look for one which is medium flexible) - unfortunately I only know where to purchase them in Europe but if you want a link let me know.


 
I thought it might be a carriage whip. but it almost looks like it's made out of bamboo. I would like to see a link, just out of curiosity.


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## equitate

Statelilne and sneiders and Carriage Driving Whips - Driving Essentials, Inc. all have driving whips. I got mine in europe (piaffe/in hand whips), but that maker of those is actually in Massachusetts (a wholesaler to the world):http://westfieldwhip.com


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## CronesHubby

dknatura said:


> I think the word Natural Horsemanship implies that we should be talking about speaking a natural language with the horses, and personally I think it should be the horse's language, not the predator versus prey which is the case with both Pat and Clint.


ok...first off I gong to be completely blunt with this...you're foolish if you really want to speak the horses language...I want to watch you get kicked in the ribs by a 1100 pound horse and walk away or bit by a lead horse for not moving your feet when told to do so and watch you getting your organs put back in your body in the emergency room.



dknatura said:


> But of course they are good at getting a horse to just 'function' and if that is the issue - OK - go ahead.


Wow! I dont even know where to start with this one. What is a horses purpose? I resent the fact that you say just to "function" because if this was the case no one would own horses because they are WILD animals. They were domesticated for a PURPOSE ...aka a "function" but I guess you see a dog is the same way being trained huh? Just to function? Same difference. 




dknatura said:


> But I think the ultimate natural horsemanahip must the kind where the horse chooses to be with the human being and has fun together with the human - but still respects him.


See above remark....A horse would not "choose" to be with anyone. They are WILD animals.




dknatura said:


> And if you try to look at the Hempfling video with an open mind (taking off the cowboy boots and hat for a few minutes) then you will notice how respectfully this horse is 'playing' with his master.


Again, if you want an 1100 pound horse "playing" with you...I want a video when you get kicked or bit and end up with broken ribs or a serious injury from a bite because eventually a horses "playing" is going to get your hurt or killed. Go for it. I'll keep demanding my horse knows Im the alpha.




dknatura said:


> But I can imagine you would not like to own him, because certainly that is a stallion with character and spirit, and I guess that is often unwanted. But why then bother about being natural???


You're **** right I wouldnt own a stallion with "character or spirit" because again you're going to get seriously hurt or killed without that stallion knowing who is the herd leader...ME! I honestly dont know if you understand what is meant by "natural" either that or you are just taking it to extremes. 

Also, you may want to learn the more about predator/pray animals. Horse are in fact a pray animal. The difference being that any animal with their eyes on the SIDE of their head (horses, elephants, gazelles) are in fact a pray animal and an animal with eyes on the front of their head is a predator(lion, tigers etc.) You cannot change what nature has done and if you think you can change the "cycle of life" go for it.


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## jaydee

CronesHubby said:


> ok...first off I gong to be completely blunt with this...you're foolish if you really want to speak the horses language...I want to watch you get kicked in the ribs by a 1100 pound horse and walk away or bit by a lead horse for not moving your feet when told to do so and watch you getting your organs put back in your body in the emergency room.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! I dont even know where to start with this one. What is a horses purpose? I resent the fact that you say just to "function" because if this was the case no one would own horses because they are WILD animals. They were domesticated for a PURPOSE ...aka a "function" but I guess you see a dog is the same way being trained huh? Just to function? Same difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See above remark....A horse would not "choose" to be with anyone. They are WILD animals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, if you want an 1100 pound horse "playing" with you...I want a video when you get kicked or bit and end up with broken ribs or a serious injury from a bite because eventually a horses "playing" is going to get your hurt or killed. Go for it. I'll keep demanding my horse knows Im the alpha.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're **** right I wouldnt own a stallion with "character or spirit" because again you're going to get seriously hurt or killed without that stallion knowing who is the herd leader...ME! I honestly dont know if you understand what is meant by "natural" either that or you are just taking it to extremes.
> 
> Also, you may want to learn the more about predator/pray animals. Horse are in fact a pray animal. The difference being that any animal with their eyes on the SIDE of their head (horses, elephants, gazelles) are in fact a pray animal and an animal with eyes on the front of their head is a predator(lion, tigers etc.) You cannot change what nature has done and if you think you can change the "cycle of life" go for it.


 Its not about literally speaking the horses language its about trying to 'read' the horse and so understand why its behaving the way it does. Mock all you like but it can save you an awful lot of time in the long run because horses react in many different ways for many reasons - spooking is a good example of this.
A horse that 'just functions' isnt a willing horse, its very often a sour , bored, begrudging horse - and this is something you often see in horses produced the Parelli way. Hempfling's methods are the not the same as those used by PP or CA - he is not into what we typically recognise as Natural Horsemanship
Hempfling is not a young man now, he's been working with horses in his own way for many years and managed to survive so he must be doing something right to earn that trust and respect from them without breaking their spirit
No one is saying that horses are not prey animals - Hempfling recognises that which is why his way is that we dont take on the role as predator - horses dont trust predators and tend to run away from them, fear them and avoid them. The example is in how some people use the round pen situation to intimidate and exhaust a horse in the way that a predator hunts down its victim so the result is a defeated animal and not a willing one where the aim has been to use it to develop a relationship and trust situation.
Having a horse respect you and lean on you as its leader, partner, alpha means that its not going to regard you as something to attack and injure but see you as someone it can rely on in all situations
The 'real' alpha horse in the herd is not the aggressive bully, its the solid reliable passive horse that they trust.
If you dont like his methods (and you've taken the time to research them)then fine but I see no reason for you to be so arrogant and rude about something that other people do find interesting and useful and a training method that has had a lot of success all across Europe. Even respected western trainers - including many of the older ones have voiced negative comments about the prey/predator approach and the sort of horses that come out of it


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## nrhareiner

First I think you need to define character and spirit.


All my horses have character and spirit both my stallion and my mares. All are very well trained well behaved and can be taken anywhere. My stallion anyone can ride. They have all been shown quite a bit. These personality traits does not make a horse dangerous in and of them selves. There is more to it then just that. There is a time and place for everything. As long as the horse knows when and where things are and are not acceptable they are great.


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## COWCHICK77

nrhareiner said:


> First I think you need to define character and spirit.
> 
> 
> All my horses have character and spirit both my stallion and my mares. All are very well trained well behaved and can be taken anywhere. My stallion anyone can ride. They have all been shown quite a bit. These personality traits does not make a horse dangerous in and of them selves. There is more to it then just that. There is a time and place for everything. As long as the horse knows when and where things are and are not acceptable they are great.



Thank you nrhareiner!
I agree, just because a horse is trained a different way or doesn't rear on command, it doesn't mean that they have no "spirit" or character!

I have rode so many ranch horses broke in traditional ways and they were all individuals and had their "quirks". My horses all have their own personalities and are rode and handled accordingling.


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## GotaDunQH

CronesHubby said:


> ok...first off I gong to be completely blunt with this...you're foolish if you really want to speak the horses language...I want to watch you get kicked in the ribs by a 1100 pound horse and walk away or bit by a lead horse for not moving your feet when told to do so and watch you getting your organs put back in your body in the emergency room.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! I dont even know where to start with this one. What is a horses purpose? I resent the fact that you say just to "function" because if this was the case no one would own horses because they are WILD animals. They were domesticated for a PURPOSE ...aka a "function" but I guess you see a dog is the same way being trained huh? Just to function? Same difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See above remark....A horse would not "choose" to be with anyone. They are WILD animals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, if you want an 1100 pound horse "playing" with you...I want a video when you get kicked or bit and end up with broken ribs or a serious injury from a bite because eventually a horses "playing" is going to get your hurt or killed. Go for it. I'll keep demanding my horse knows Im the alpha.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're **** right I wouldnt own a stallion with "character or spirit" because again you're going to get seriously hurt or killed without that stallion knowing who is the herd leader...ME! I honestly dont know if you understand what is meant by "natural" either that or you are just taking it to extremes.
> 
> Also, you may want to learn the more about predator/pray animals. Horse are in fact a pray animal. The difference being that any animal with their eyes on the SIDE of their head (horses, elephants, gazelles) are in fact a pray animal and an animal with eyes on the front of their head is a predator(lion, tigers etc.) You cannot change what nature has done and if you think you can change the "cycle of life" go for it.


You really can't compare WILD feral horses with domesticated horses. So the horses we own, can't not be considered wild....because they aren't. They were born in a totally different environment and human presence right from the get-go. HUGE difference.

A horse can certainly have spirit, character AND functionality.....it comes down to training and respect from both sides...horse and human.

The only thing I agree with in your post in "playing" with your horse. I don't "play" with my horse either at liberty or under saddle. I ask and he responds, he knows his job well, and does it happily.


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## Blue Smoke

CronesHubby said:


> Again, if you want an 1100 pound horse "playing" with you...I want a video when you get kicked or bit and end up with broken ribs or a serious injury from a bite because eventually a horses "playing" is going to get your hurt or killed. Go for it. I'll keep demanding my horse knows Im the alpha.


Here ya go...


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## Blue Smoke

My bad, this video is better and shows aftermath pics of this woman "playing" with her horse....


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## Sharond

This is how horses play with each other, why on earth would a human try to play with their horse??

I consider this one way to weed out the weaker link.


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## GotaDunQH

Sharond said:


> This is how horses play with each other, why on earth would a human try to play with their horse??
> 
> I consider this one way to weed out the weaker link.


Love this!! Yea, I'm not a horse...so I don't want my horse thinking I am one. People talk about being the "alpha" mare with their horses. Well, first off....like I said, I 'm not a horse, and secondly...I'm that OTHER being in their life that sets the rules, the routine etc and my horses know the difference.


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## soenjer55

Personally, I don't want to be treated like a horse, just like I'm sure my horses don't want to be treated like humans. A horse should be treated like a horse, because that's what he is. Every situation where a horse has been treated like anything other than what he is that I've seen- as a dog, a human, whatever- has ended badly.
I don't need to be a horse to learn to understand them and communicate clearly, I do just fine the way I am, and they shouldn't need to be humans to understand me- if they do, I'm doing something very wrong. Trying to act like a horse is ridiculous to me... you're just jumping into a world where you don't know the rules and are incapable of following them anyway. The idea of trying to teach a horse to speak English and join human society as one of us is absurd, so why do people insist on doing the opposite? It's the difference between communication and language.
I won't say that I hate natural horsemanship, because I also always thought that what it's represented by now is a very skewed version of what it started as. I also think that the definition is a bit different for everyone... For me, I always thought that natural horsemanship was a more organic and simple approach to horses, with the goal of communicating and building a partnership as simply and naturally as possible, to strip it all down to a horse and a human and to try and build up from there. Not to become more like a horse, but to teach both you and the horse to understand each other better as you are. That's why I get so irked when I see this 'natural horsemanship' that requires you to buy a special this and special that and this DVD and that CD and this and that gadget, because that goes against my idea of natural horsemanship entirely. A trainer/teacher should teach you to teach yourself.
Hempfling is obviously not new to horses, I don't doubt that he knows what he's doing and has quite a bit of knowledge tucked away, and I do appreciate some of what I see in that video... but hailing it as "true natural horsemanship" isn't the first thing on my agenda. As pretty as that horse is, I would not like to have him think it's okay to flail his hooves in my face the way he does there... I love a spirited horse, I appreciate seeing one, I love working with one- as long as they know when to let their spirit go wild and when to control it to buckle down and work. It's not crushing their spirit to ask for respect for your space and safety. It's just teaching them that there's a time and place for everything.


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## jaydee

Hempfling's version of Natural Horsemanship is totally different to the NH of Parelli and co. and shouldnt be confused with that or even put in the same box
His ideas on communication with horses are nothing to do with them seeing you as a horse or treating you as a horse or vv.
He also treats each horse as an individual case - and that is part of understanding horses - they are all different as they all have unique personalities and history so all have different needs. The problem with most NH trainers is that they have a set pattern and apply that to every horse
His ways arent unique and he would never claim they are, the horses he gets sent are often extreme examples in terms of aggression or nervousness and not the sort of horses that most of us will ever get to deal with
If you look at this first video - he is no 'soft touch' around this horse, he allows it to let off steam but not to invade his safe zone. 
His method is to build a bond with a horse thats based on willingness, trust and respect rather than defeat in the predator/prey ways but that doesnt mean that the horse doesnt have to learn recognised boundaries or be allowed to be a danger to humans as that would defeat the purpose
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HEtmvuEkmw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVAcyMZ8CMY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgyGa_tgNu8
Its another of those things that you can take what you like from it and find interesting or useful or move on and ignore but unless you actually take the time to research his ideas then you really have no clue what its all about


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## equitate

Hempling does not start out with what he is doing loose, there is much training in hand first. Imho what he does is NOT for beginners who cannot read behaviors/responses in DEPTH.He makes it LOOK easy because he is experienced in PROGRESSIVE training. But the question is why do work loose? It is safer for horse and rider to train for purpose (which should be riding), and keep control. Anything else really ends up (sadly) being for market share, to impress non horsemen to buy products. What he does is a basis for future training (whether it is circus work or riding). The rest is circus (my mom did that as a child) but often does not play into a more useful riding horses per se. Too many people do not understand that horses are equine, not human. They are only doing what they would do with other horses, too many amorphisize them to humans. He knows not to do that, but is humble in their presence as well.


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## Blue Smoke

I think the video I posted is a prime example of what *can* happen when people get "bought" into some of the NH trainers, specifically PP, who I have seen more first time (read NO previous horse experience ever) horse owners start to follow than the others. If you have no horse experience otherwise how are you supposed to know how to read a horses behavior, know the early warning signs that the horse is irritated, annoyed, etc? Everyone wants a great relationship with their horse, and that is what these clinicians are marketing for, I can use PP concepts as well as CA, CC, JL, etc and take some things from each, but I can see that ONE way will not work for every case. I think Hempfling is in a completely different category than the NH'ers, I did not see an annoyed, stressed, or disrespectful animal in his video, although I do not like that the horse was allowed to rear so close to him, I understand that it is his thing, he trains circus horses, and that is something they are taught to do on command. He seemed like he knew his horse, and was confident, and his horse the same. 

There are some things you cannot teach over a DVD set. They may be helpful to people who already understand the inner workings of horses, but if you are an equine virgin, nothing can teach you what hands on, individualized lessons and training from a real live knowledgeable horse person can. I personally like CC myself, but I can honestly say I have taken things from almost all of the NH trainers and applied them to training. An acquaintance bought into PP and I did some of the games with her, they confused and frustrated my gelding, and honestly hers as well, so I stopped, she continued and had a horribly disrespectful 4 year old welsh pony who would rear, needed a chain over the nose for barn crew to bring to his stall and turn out, and was just plain nasty. She was a first time horse owner, was confronted on his behavior because it is dangerous for anyone to handle, and was politely asked to leave because she would not take anyone's advice on how to help her and her horse NOT be so disrespectful and down right dangerous. Don't know how she is now, but she was well on her way to being killed, and couldn't see that even if it hit her in the face, and it hit her in the face multiple times. 

So, that is my rant... Not one of these clinicians are the "messiah" of all things horse. I just wish people realized that BEFORE they bought into the hype. Especially the first time horse owners.


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## soenjer55

Frankly what little I know about Hempfling makes me like him, definitely more than Parelli or Anderson. I still don't like the idea of "playing" with a horse, personally, but like I said, there are still things in the video that I appreciate. He's obviously not new to horses and has quite a bit of experience tucked in there. I'm not going to set down any absolutes about him because, like you said, I don't know enough.


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## jaydee

soenjer55 said:


> Frankly what little I know about Hempfling makes me like him, definitely more than Parelli or Anderson. I still don't like the idea of "playing" with a horse, personally, but like I said, there are still things in the video that I appreciate. He's obviously not new to horses and has quite a bit of experience tucked in there. I'm not going to set down any absolutes about him because, like you said, I don't know enough.


 I think what you'll see in people like Hempfling is that what they do isnt 'playing' but all part of a teaching phase, they dont take risks and the horse knows exactly what the rules are.
Its when people go out and think they can do this with any old horse without the skill and th controls in place that accidents happen, the horses may be behaving & playing like a labrador dog but they are way more powerful. To allow a horse to be like that is actually disrespectful to the horse
You have to take whats useful from all of these people and use it or store it for future reference - but to me its only the info that matters and I would never become a 'groupie'
I find this old guys comments really funny on this video - I wouldnt agree with a lot of his ideas but this one I like, the horse knows exactly where it stands with him, has a surprising understanding but has its own mind spirit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvQHZzys4BE


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## CronesHubby

I see people here saying "There's lots of training", "He doesnt start out that way with the horse", "He treats all horses as individuals" and think their trainer is the only one to do it. Here's the thing...MOST of the "Natural Horsemenship Trainers" will tell you that. We just went and attended a CA Walkabout tour in Tampa, FL. Clinton will tell you right up front that each horse is different. He also says he's not the best horse training in the world and there are other that can train better than him. He will also tell you there are many different methods you can use. What I find really amazing is people here that haven't seen/used more than one trainers video will defend their "trainer" without knowledge of what any other trainer has said. Thinking that theirs is the only way. Equitate, Im going to use yours as an example..you stated, "Hempling does not start out with what he is doing loose, there is much training in hand first" At the tour this weekend, Clinton did a Liberty exercise with Diez and it was incredible. Clinton said he worked Diez 6 days a week for 1-1.5 hours a day for TWO YEARS to get the results he did. Another one is Stacey Westfall put in 1200 hours of training for one run(reigning). The whole points is no one horse trainer has the ONLY method that works for every horse. I keep an open mind to MOST trainers. I will say I like some things about Hempfield BUT for a novice who doesn't know how many hours and years that goes into training like this and just see the videos you end up with the video above with the girl kicked in the face. There were SO many warning signs the horse was agitated it wasn't funny(head shake, ears pinned etc) and the girl didn't pick up on it. I bet she didn't have 100 hours of training on that horse. This might sounds cruel but she got what she deserved for being STUPID. So, I guess what Im trying to say is NO TRAINER is perfect but if you dont know everything about a particular trainer dont say anything negative about them. Use what knowledge you want from each trainer but remember this. RESPECT from you towards your horse AND your horse towards you, I feel, is the MAIN thing. That doesnt mean you break their spirit because I can tell you this, from watching CA with Diez ...there was plenty of spirit left in him. Oh! One thing that just hit me....If you think a horse being TRAINED TO REAR(like for the circus) means the horse still has spirit...you're incorrect...its like any other thing. They are trained to do it...the same way some horses are trained to lie down.


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## jaydee

*Croneshubby *- I think you are actually saying what most of us on here have already said - that we DONT treat one trainer as a know all God person and that because horses have been around us for centuries in their domesticated state there is no way that anyone can say they are doing something that hasnt been done before and most of our irritation is aimed at people who do treat one person like an idol and refuse to see any wrong in anything they do or say - and I'm pretty sure that people like *equitate* don't fall into that category
Another thing to remember is that many of us are old enough to have grown up before the internet/video age and had to rely on books and - better still - real life influences - to gain our knowledge. I've learnt from gypsy horse dealers right through to top class competitors with many more in between but they all had something to offer


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## CronesHubby

jaydee said:


> Having a horse respect you and lean on you as its leader, partner, alpha means that its not going to regard you as something to attack and injure but see you as someone it can rely on in all situations
> The 'real' alpha horse in the herd is not the aggressive bully, its the solid reliable passive horse that they trust.
> If you dont like his methods (and you've taken the time to research them)then fine but I see no reason for you to be so arrogant and rude about something that other people do find interesting and useful and a training method that has had a lot of success all across Europe. Even respected western trainers - including many of the older ones have voiced negative comments about the prey/predator approach and the sort of horses that come out of it


 First off jaydee I totally disagree with several of these statement. Having a horse seeing you as an alpha does not mean you're going to attack or injure it. It means you are in control. Yes, its wants to rely on you to keep it safe and ALIVE. You get a horses respect by being the one that moves its feet. That is HORSE NATURE. The first horse that moves their feet loses and becomes lower on the herd pecking order. The one that moves their feet last in the herd IS the alpha.
For someone that thinks they know so much about horse behavior you are totally incorrect about the "alpha" of the herd. Watch a mare that is a herd leader she will pin her ears, bite on the other horses to get them to move their feet and do what she wants them to do to keep them safe. The alpha IS basically the herd bully in a matter of speaking. A PASSIVE horse, as you put it, will not keep the herd safe nor will the other horses look to it leadership. More than likely the passive horse wont be in the herd that long because it will be eaten as prey.
As far as me being arrogant and rude, I'm sorry if the truth hurts peoples feelings but I didn't see anything I said as being arrogant. I stated MY opinions about "playing" with the horse. As a matter of fact, I wasn't even addressing his methods at all. I was responding to dknatura's post about "natural horsemenship" I did not say his methods were bad, just two different types of training. I do not want to train to rear and paw at me being a circus horse or not...that is how accidents happen. Prime example of this is how many years did Sigfried and Roy have their tigers and all of a sudden....Roy got munched. You will NEVER completely train or breed out a horses reactive side of their brain(spooking for example)...just as you will never train out a prey part or their brain. Its nature. If you dont agree with me, thats fine. Everyone is entitled to train how they want but dont call me rude and arrogant when everything I stated was TRUE.


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## jaydee

CronesHubby said:


> First off jaydee I totally disagree with several of these statement. Having a horse seeing you as an alpha does not mean you're going to attack or injure it. It means you are in control. Yes, its wants to rely on you to keep it safe and ALIVE. You get a horses respect by being the one that moves its feet. That is HORSE NATURE. The first horse that moves their feet loses and becomes lower on the herd pecking order. The one that moves their feet last in the herd IS the alpha.
> For someone that thinks they know so much about horse behavior you are totally incorrect about the "alpha" of the herd. Watch a mare that is a herd leader she will pin her ears, bite on the other horses to get them to move their feet and do what she wants them to do to keep them safe. The alpha IS basically the herd bully in a matter of speaking. A PASSIVE horse, as you put it, will not keep the herd safe nor will the other horses look to it leadership. More than likely the passive horse wont be in the herd that long because it will be eaten as prey.
> As far as me being arrogant and rude, I'm sorry if the truth hurts peoples feelings but I didn't see anything I said as being arrogant. I stated MY opinions about "playing" with the horse. As a matter of fact, I wasn't even addressing his methods at all. I was responding to dknatura's post about "natural horsemenship" I did not say his methods were bad, just two different types of training. I do not want to train to rear and paw at me being a circus horse or not...that is how accidents happen. Prime example of this is how many years did Sigfried and Roy have their tigers and all of a sudden....Roy got munched. You will NEVER completely train or breed out a horses reactive side of their brain(spooking for example)...just as you will never train out a prey part or their brain. Its nature. If you dont agree with me, thats fine. Everyone is entitled to train how they want but dont call me rude and arrogant when everything I stated was TRUE.


 From what I see what you see as 'True' is based on your misinterpretation of what was said/posted
You might not think that you came over as rude but actually you did - try to see things from other peoples prespective once in while
No you wont 'train out' the prey part of a horses brain - what you do is train the horse to know that you are not the predator - and honestly since most horses are around humans from birth the only time they see us as predator is when we start to behave like one.
You can train a horse to move its feet without behaving like an aggressive horse - or being aggressive at all. A horse thats nervous and distrustful of people is far harder to train than one thats confident and trusting around people - that doesnt mean it doesnt understand rules and boundaries but you dont have to use aggression or bully tactics to establish those.
The lead mare (the real alpha) is the one that the herd follows - its not the one they avoid. We want our horses to come to us - not run away. 
Its been said that Mark Rashid also has his 'dark side' but his comments on the alpha mare are interesting. You should maybe look them up.


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## Ray MacDonald

I agree with CronesHubby. I also did not think he came off as rude, just honest in his opinion.

The alpha mare is the one who moves all the horse's feet. Because she is at the top of the pecking order. She's the boss woman


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## nrhareiner

While an alpha mare is one who makes other horses move. You must define how she makes them move. Dose she make them move b/c she is chasing them or are they moving to follow her? This is the question. While both makes the other horses move which is a true leader?

At the end of the day a the alpha needs to be a leader. Not a bully. Be it a horse or a human.


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## EquestrianCowgirl4

Pat! I am not a big Clint fan at all... I watched him then stopped because I didn't like it. THen I came back a couple years later and I stopped again. Not a clint fan at all


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## CronesHubby

nrhareiner said:


> While an alpha mare is one who makes other horses move. You must define how she makes them move. Dose she make them move b/c she is chasing them or are they moving to follow her? This is the question. While both makes the other horses move which is a true leader?
> 
> At the end of the day a the alpha needs to be a leader. Not a bully. Be it a horse or a human.


Regardless of how or why she makes them move that is how horses establish dominance/leadership/pecking order. Call it whatever you will. There is zero difference as to why she makes them move their feet. Explain to me what the difference is....not what you THINK it is. If a new horse comes into a herd he/she has to find where they fit in the pecking order..how does that horse do that? By making the other ones move their feet. There is NO difference how or why...bully or alpha...they are both one and the same.


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## NdAppy

No bully and alpha are not the same. I have both in my herd. My alpha can move the others off with a look... my bully chases and picks and picks and picks at the other horses when she can get away with it. 

Bully =/= Alpha


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## nrhareiner

CronesHubby said:


> Regardless of how or why she makes them move that is how horses establish dominance/leadership/pecking order. Call it whatever you will. There is zero difference as to why she makes them move their feet. Explain to me what the difference is....not what you THINK it is. If a new horse comes into a herd he/she has to find where they fit in the pecking order..how does that horse do that? By making the other ones move their feet. There is NO difference how or why...bully or alpha...they are both one and the same.


There is a big difference between a bully and an Alpha horse. Just like NDAppy stated. A horse can be a bully and not be Alpha and most Alphas are not bullies.

My Dun It mare is Alpha. However when she was younger she was more of a Bully and my Poco g-daughter was Alpha. When Cassie came home from years at the trainer she stopped being a bully but she still wanted to be Alpha. Yes my Poco mare was still alive and was still alpha even at 31 before she died. She was Alpha and it would have been so easy for Cassie to have killed her so easy or at the very least hurt her and taken that Alpha spot she so much wanted. Yet she never did. Sara was the leader and Cassie knew it and followed her. Now that she is Alpha I see her lead in much the same way Sara did. She is not related to Sara in any real way yet Cassie learned how to be a good Alpha from Sara by watching and learning from her. That is the mark of a good leader.

Also a bully that is not Alpha maybe able to make horses under them move their feet but they will never be able to get the ones higher them them to move.


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## jaydee

I guess you have to decide for yourself if you want to be the true alpha leader that your horse trusts and relies on in all situations and so follows willingly because it sees you as its leader
or
If you want to be the bully that you see as the alpha which is the horse the others run away from and avoid and would prefer not to follow but to be as far away from as possible
I have a 'bully' amongst my 'herd' of five and she is most definitely not the leader when it comes down to it. She may push the others away from food but she lacks confidence in 'scarey' situations and is totally dependant on the calm reliable passive alpha mare to give the lead - and when this mare wants what she wants she just walks quietly through and they all move away and let her - I have never once seen her attack another horse or even look mean, she just somehow commands respect - maybe because they all know in their own 'horsey way' thats she's the one they all rely on and so cant do without.
This should be a clip from a longer video where Mark Rashid explains very well how a herd actually works. Ignore the bit tacked on the end as not relevant.


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## CronesHubby

ok...I will admit there is difference between a bully and an alpha horse after thinking about some of the things I seen. Now that I think about it, I have seen a horse run another up and down the pasture for no reason that were not the alphas HOWEVER...I do still disagree that the alpha is a "passive" horse. Maybe that's not the word you are looking for, I dont know but passive would not stay alpha long. I still stand by my original statement that the alpha DOES need to be KIND OF a bully. Passive, nope. Maybe level-headed is a better word but passive is going to get the herd in trouble or he/she is going to be lunch. Passive is non-aggressive/inactive; receptive to outside impressions or influences which is NOT by definition an alpha. Those two words contradict themselves.

Also, I dont take everything Mark Rashid, since you want to site him so much, says as gospel as you all like to say ..take from everyone and learn all you can.


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## nrhareiner

Then how do you explain a 32 yo mare who can hardly move still being the Alpha horse when there are others who would gladly take that position if she was not there? Who could easily KILL her with little to no effort? Yet they do not even so much as try to move her or take her on. They move when she wanted all she had to do was give them a look.


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## NdAppy

I call that the force of personality, assurance in themselves and their position in the herd...


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## nrhareiner

That is what a leader is. It is more of a presence they have vs what they do to get that role. If you get to know a person who is a true leader and watch them. They can walk into a room and everyone just gravitates to them and they end up leading with out any work at it. Same goes with a true alpha mare.


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## jaydee

*Croneshubby* - I used the video of Mark Rashids as it shows a good example of herd behaviour and he gives a pretty accurate description of what a herd alpha really is - I dont recall anyone saying that they hung on his every word.
This is just another case of gathering information from all sorts of sources and evaluating it to see what might be useful.
A herd actually does need a passive leader that will have the calm courage to lead wherever they need to go, keep the others settled and at ease. Horses in the wild couldnt afford to waste an ounce of energy racing off every time a twig snapped or a bird farted. A wise mare knows when theres real danger - horses have amazing powers of scent and will pick up the smell of a predator before its a risk to them. The lead mare then wants the others to follow her away from that danger and to safety - not to be running away from her like headless chickens in all directions because they dont trust her to not be wanting to attack them for some reason
An aggressive handler usually makes a horse tense and nervous even though it might appear to be compliant.
Do not confuse passive with stupid and dull.
This passes on to your horse in the way you ride it. It sees something it finds scarey but if it trusts in you and you stay calm then they will believe you. I rarely need to desensitise my horses to anything more than the general way of them getting used to stuff around the place because they see me as someone to trust and not someone to fear.
Understanding horses and their behaviour doesnt mean we should become like horses ourselves. We learn their 'language' and also educate them in ours They have the approximate mental ability of a 2 year old child, as adult humans we are far superior to that.
Early man could never have captured horses and domesticated them on their terms - they are far faster and much stronger than we are.


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## CronesHubby

You know what...Im not going to sit here and go back and forth with closed minded people who THINK they know everything. I have much better things to do, like spending time with my horses. I was willing to admit something after I thought about it yet you all THINK you know everything. Fine, let me know when you all can walk on water and you know everything there is to know about horses. Little tip...that day will NEVER come. If you THINK you do you, need to get rid of your horses now because you are doing them a great disservice. Me, I'll continue to go on learning and KEEP LEARNING and keep an open mind. This is exactly why I don't come here much...people THINK they know everything and will not keep an open mind that there MIGHT be another point of view. Have fun thinking you know everything.


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## nrhareiner

CronesHubby said:


> You know what...Im not going to sit here and go back and forth with closed minded people who THINK they know everything. I have much better things to do, like spending time with my horses. I was willing to admit something after I thought about it yet you all THINK you know everything. Fine, let me know when you all can walk on water and you know everything there is to know about horses. Little tip...that day will NEVER come. If you THINK you do you, need to get rid of your horses now because you are doing them a great disservice. Me, I'll continue to go on learning and KEEP LEARNING and keep an open mind. This is exactly why I don't come here much...people THINK they know everything and will not keep an open mind that there MIGHT be another point of view. Have fun thinking you know everything.


No one here thinks they know everything there is to know about horses. However there is enough people here who have been around horses long enough and seen enough to know that a lead alpha mare does not need to be a bully to be the Alpha. You seem to be the only one who is closed minded on this as you can not see that can be true. I have as have others given examples of this. 

Just b/c we do not bend to your will does not make us closed minded. Just like disagreeing with Obama does not make me racist.

Again if you think every Alpha mare just be part Bully then again I ask you to explain my old Poco mare. Yet you seem to take your toys and go home vs debated this fact. So be it.


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## bsms

I think the problem is with the word passive. A lead horse isn't passive. That doesn't mean they go around bullying others, but they also don't get respect by just standing around.

Mia is the lead of my 3 horses. Yes, she is willing to enforce rules with teeth and hooves, although there is almost never a time she does. The little mustang HAS tried to take food away from her, and been walloped pretty hard for stupidity. 

But after a cold snap, when the sun comes out and the horses want to stretch in the sand, it is the geldings who get to. Mia stands watch over them. When the geldings are playing, and it gets too rough and someone has hurt feelings, Mia stops ignoring them long enough to stroll over and send them to opposite sides of the corral - on time out. When she thinks they are settled down, she'll allow them to mix again. 

In doing this, she doesn't rush in and attack. She undoubtedly WOULD attack if needed, but the geldings seem to understand that she is the responsible one. Much of her authority comes from being the one who always stays on watch and from her fairness and consistency in settling issues.

The lessons I take from her are that A) I must be willing to dominate, by any means needed, and B) I must be seen as fair and caring. Weak but fair doesn't buy you any respect in the world of horses. Strong but mean may buy obedience, but not respect. If I want a horse to trust me, I need to be both dominant and responsible. I need to be willing to kick butt, but fair and consistent about doing so.

There is nothing passive about a lead horse. Subtle, perhaps, but not passive.

I also am not convinced that horses are always going around testing each other. From watching my 3, it seems that once they understand each other and how to relate, they largely go on autopilot. If Mia gets ill, the geldings don't shout, "Great! The Queen is Dead! One of us will take over!"

The little BLM mustang has now been with us for 16 months. It has taken him about that long to truly become an integral part of the herd. His role could change, but it wouldn't change overnight. In a stable herd, relationships and roles don't change from day to day. Trooper could almost match Mia for raw power, but he'll never be the herd lead. He doesn't even want to be the lead. He likes having Mia take charge and watch over him.

Interestingly, on the trail, Mia is the one most likely to get scared. And either gelding will then gladly take the lead and show her there is nothing to be afraid of, and then she relaxes. Yet both geldings get very tense if taken out without Mia, because they only feel confident when she is nearby. How that all plays in with who is the lead and who is the follower, I don't know. She is by far the most high-strung of the 3, yet the other 2 are glad to calm her down...and then let her lead. My guess is that horses have more complex social relations than human phrases like 'dominant/subordinate' and 'active/passive' words describe...

Mia ignoring the geldings:


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## CronesHubby

nrhareiner said:


> No one here thinks they know everything there is to know about horses. However there is enough people here who have been around horses long enough and seen enough to know that a lead alpha mare does not need to be a bully to be the Alpha. You seem to be the only one who is closed minded on this as you can not see that can be true. I have as have others given examples of this.
> 
> Just b/c we do not bend to your will does not make us closed minded. Just like disagreeing with Obama does not make me racist.
> 
> Again if you think every Alpha mare just be part Bully then again I ask you to explain my old Poco mare. Yet you seem to take your toys and go home vs debated this fact. So be it.


I've read through many pages and have YET to see you admit a mistake. I guess you just don't make any. Anyway. Enjoy your perfect little world. All I ever said was an Alpha has to be SOMEWHAT of a bully..yet you want to argue that he/she is passive when I gave you the definition of what PASSIVE and is almost completely opposite of what the definition of alpha. 

I also stated maybe that "Passive" was not the word that should be used...I believe I used the term "level headed" but I've had enough of the know it all. Like I said, I'm done with a know it all.
Here's the thing...Im grown enough to admit I was wrong....are you? Obviously not. Bye!


As far as politics...whatever I cant stand the POS in the WH either.


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## 40232

I don't understand why there is so much hate against Pat. I used his methods with my untrusting, broodmare (which was practically a rescue) and got her from being extremely introverted and nervous to a calm, calm horse.

But I have the Anderson and Parelli books at my house. Plus, the internet helps with other methods.I use TONS of methods to training. Plus my own.


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## nrhareiner

CronesHubby said:


> I've read through many pages and have YET to see you admit a mistake.
> *Yet you can not find one where I have made one to admit to I am sure. Reason? B/C if I do not know something I will not put just an opinion out there. If you read I will always back up what I say with facts and examples. In real life I have made mistakes. I learn from them and go on. I rarely make the same one twice. When I do not know or am not sure I know where and how to find the answer.*
> 
> I guess you just don't make any. Anyway. Enjoy your perfect little world. All I ever said was an Alpha has to be SOMEWHAT of a bully..yet you want to argue that he/she is passive when I gave you the definition of what PASSIVE and is almost completely opposite of what the definition of alpha.
> 
> *Not one time did I ever use the word passive. You have me mixed up with someone else. What I said was that an Alpha mare does not need to be a bully to be alpha. They need to be a leader. I owned Sara for 12 years. All 12 of those years she was the Alpha mare. I never in those 12 years did I ever see her bully anouther horse. She was a natural leader. The others knew it. Even though those other horses could have easily killed her many times over.*
> 
> I also stated maybe that "Passive" was not the word that should be used...I believe I used the term "level headed" but I've had enough of the know it all. Like I said, I'm done with a know it all.
> Here's the thing...Im grown enough to admit I was wrong....are you? Obviously not. Bye!
> 
> 
> As far as politics...whatever I cant stand the POS in the WH either.


Please that is the point of a debate show me where anything I have stated was incorrect?

You stated that an Bully may not be an Alpha but an Alpha must be a bully. I say B/S on that. I say a Alpha must be a LEADER. Leaders true leaders are rarely to NEVER a bully.


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## Faceman

nrhareiner said:


> You stated that an Bully may not be an Alpha but an Alpha must be a bully. I say B/S on that. I say a Alpha must be a LEADER. Leaders true leaders are rarely to NEVER a bully.


Correctamundo. In a true herd environment, the Alpha rarely, if ever gets physical - they rule with "the look" and dominate with looks, feints, and body position. Assuming the herd is large enough to have true herd dynamics, the number two (usually a mare) is the "enforcer", and is the one that is physical. The number two is also the one you have to be a bit careful with and keep an eye on when mingling with the herd, so you are not in the wrong place at the wrong time when she decides to enforce her will on another horse.

Most of the time "herds" are so small that true herd dynamics don't really surface. With only 3 or 4 horses, about the only herd dynamics is a basic pecking order...


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## NdAppy

That's pretty much what it is here Face. You can tell Phoenix is top of the totem pole (lard butt that she is :lol, and then Callie and Chandy are constantly squabbling for 2nd. Callie is also my "bully" unless there is a person in there with them then she wants attention :rofl:


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## bsms

Faceman said:


> ...With only 3 or 4 horses, about the only herd dynamics is a basic pecking order...


Actually, with only 3 horses, I can watch them and see interaction that goes beyond pecking order. Mia is undoubtedly the top horse, but she scares the most when riding in the desert. The others are 'lower', but they cheerfully will prove to her that the palo verde tree that lost its flowers isn't a monster.

But if they feel threatened by something in the wash next to their corral, they all back off. But if the 'threat' seems bad enough, fearful Mia is the one who will place herself between the others and the 'threat', and prance back and forth, her every movement offering a challenge and a willingness to fight.

Even with just 3 horses, words like dominant and fearful don't describe what actually goes on.

Another example: Mia won't share her food. Unless, that is, they've had a long, cold night and all are very hungry. She then allows the others to eat from her pile of hay UNTIL I have time to provide them with their own piles. THEN she requires them to go elsewhere. But when they are all very hungry, she will share. And I think it is that element of 'fairness' in her that helps create the respect that allows her to separate the geldings with a glance. In the end, at some level, they believe she will do right by them - to include fighting to protect them, and sharing her food when they are hungry enough, and watching over them while they rest.

Frankly, Mia could teach a lot of human bosses with MBAs a lot about leadership...:shock:


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## CronesHubby

nrhareiner said:


> Please that is the point of a debate show me where anything I have stated was incorrect?
> 
> You stated that an Bully may not be an Alpha but an Alpha must be a bully. I say B/S on that. I say a Alpha must be a LEADER. Leaders true leaders are rarely to NEVER a bully.


That is NOT what I stated after I admitted my mistake.(reading comprehension please)...I said that an Alpha has to be SOMEWHAT of a bully because at one point in time he/she had to earn all the other horses respect in the herd and needs to defend the herd from outside interference. Hence the words SOMEWHAT. A herd is not going to give someone the "lead" role just off one "look." At one point in time the alpha had to do something to get the respect of all the horses in the herd. Nh - I notice you want to tear me up and jump down my throat for my opinion yet jaydee is the one that said the alpha/lead has to be passive. I debated that and you jumped on ME. I didn't notice a correction aimed at jaydee. I see how it works around here. That's fine. Either that or you don't read everything and just like to show how smart you think you are or you just think you can bully new people to your point. Whatever. Again, I'm done with this thread.


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## jaydee

CronesHubby said:


> That is NOT what I stated after I admitted my mistake.(reading comprehension please)...I said that an Alpha has to be SOMEWHAT of a bully because at one point in time he/she had to earn all the other horses respect in the herd and needs to defend the herd from outside interference. Hence the words SOMEWHAT. A herd is not going to give someone the "lead" role just off one "look." At one point in time the alpha had to do something to get the respect of all the horses in the herd. Nh - I notice you want to tear me up and jump down my throat for my opinion yet jaydee is the one that said the alpha/lead has to be passive. I debated that and you jumped on ME. I didn't notice a correction aimed at jaydee. I see how it works around here. That's fine. Either that or you don't read everything and just like to show how smart you think you are or you just think you can bully new people to your point. Whatever. Again, I'm done with this thread.


 And I was using Mark Rashids interpretation of a 'passive leader' so maybe take up your argument with him
I'm pretty sure that he uses the word passive as an opposite to aggressive/bully in the sense that the true herd leader doesnt need to be a bully or use aggression - this is behaviour seen in horses further down the pecking order and might even be a sign of a less confident horse being defensive. It doesnt mean that the alpha horse is some dopey thing that stands around and does nothing, though we have introduced several new horses to our small herd in the years since my oldest mare has been with us and though they may have challenged the others none have ever challenged her and she has never shown any violence towards them - her predecessor who was an 11.2 pony was exactly the same and she was in with 16.2 horses.
The alpha horse might even be recognised by its confidence and skills of perception as the others rely on that more for survival than they do on a horse that has a desire to attack - its rare for a horse to attack a predator as they are a fear/flight animal
As humans our best abilities over the horse is our superior intelligence and our confidence
A spooky nervous rider will almost always make a spooky nervous horse.
I have never needed to bully a horse into submission as its far better to make them rely on you, trust you and want to please you - and its not for the fact that I havent had some real b*****ds over the years
There is a huge difference in controlled discipline and teaching boundaries with horses and bullying them or lashing out in anger/temper which is what you see in that type of herd behaviour.
Our 'bully' mare is the most dependant on humans (and other horses) of all of ours. She doesnt have an aggressive or confrontational bone in her body where people are concerned and neither does her understudy.
You are also very wrong and totally out of order when you accuse any of us of ganging up on a new member - I'm sure that you will find threads where we have disagreed (and often very strongly) on other things.


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## Dustbunny

bsms...Thank you for posting that photo. I now have a serious case of home-in-the-desert envy.

On topic: I have gleened a lot of info from many different trainers (and life experiences). I have worked to have our horses respect me and in return I respect them.

I will now go practice my scooping skills.


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## palogal

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Simple. He can't ride a stick horse to the well, he plows around on his horse's face like a caveman, he markets trick training under horsemanship and MANY of the horses trained with his methods are cranky and disrespectful...



Among other things. My favorite reason was one of his shows on RFD..I admit, I watch him. You just never know when someone will say something valuable...I'm still holding out hope he will.

Anyway.... He was riding his horse and leading anther to the trailer. His horse was BITING the one on the lead, and he was totally ok with this. Parelli said "she's playing the porcupine game with her teeth"...

I nearly fell over. I swear, I am not making this up.

That being said, I'm a Julie Goodnight and Clinton Anderson fan.


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## Faceman

bsms said:


> Actually, with only 3 horses, I can watch them and see interaction that goes beyond pecking order. Mia is undoubtedly the top horse, but she scares the most when riding in the desert. The others are 'lower', but they cheerfully will prove to her that the palo verde tree that lost its flowers isn't a monster.
> 
> But if they feel threatened by something in the wash next to their corral, they all back off. But if the 'threat' seems bad enough, fearful Mia is the one who will place herself between the others and the 'threat', and prance back and forth, her every movement offering a challenge and a willingness to fight.


Yeah, but that is exactly what I am talking about. When natural herd dynamics are in play, the lead is NEVER the protector - or the enforcer. There are three primary positions in a herd - leader, enforcer, and protector, and the same horse doesn't do more than one job. In a small herd/confined environment they may, but that is only because of a restricted environment in herd size or confinement or both...


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## bsms

^^ OK. Three is a plenty big enough 'herd' for me, so I'll take your word for it! 

But even with just 3 horses, their interaction involves a lot more subtlety and complexity than some things I've read would indicate. Horses aren't particularly logical, but they are smarter and more perceptive and have a greater range of interpersonal interaction than I originally believed. The longer I watch them, the more obvious it becomes that I have a lot to learn. I just find it interesting that my most fearful horse, by far, is also the one who will offer to protect the others, if need be.


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## Faceman

No question about it. Interaction between horses is fascinating and complex. I've studied them all my life and still sometimes I see them doing things that puzzle me. 5 or 6 years ago I got hit by a tornado, and my "protector", a gelding that was my former stallion, rounded everyone up and stationed the herd in the middle of the pasture away from the barn and outbuildings and any trees (they heard it when it was 2 or 3 miles away, and I can only assume they reacted to an instinct triggered by either the sound or the rapid drop in barometric pressure), and they all faced into the tornado. Some of my outbuilding were demolished and coral panels and steel from the buildings was flying all over the place. They were untouched in the middle of the pasture. One thing I learned is if you see horses doing that, take cover. Personally, I think they communicate a lot more than even those of us that know them well think they do.

If they had stayed in their run-in barn, this is what they would have had to contend with...


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## jaydee

*Face* thats interesting as we've often noticed that in really windy/stormy weather our horses will be sheltering 'by a fence post' and not under any trees.
*bsms* Mia sounds like a typical 'mother hen' - they are defenceless creatures until they have a brood of chicks and then they can turn into evil attackers if they think their young are under threat. I've seen normally terrified hens run at farm dogs, cats and humans

Dont wolves have a really structured pack regime?


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## Jennakaaate

I hate it when people ask others for their opinions, and then they get ****ed off when we get brutally honest. I tried watching one episode of Pat's show, and I just couldn't get through it. I used Clinton's methods for halter breaking foals and for doing a lot of ground work with the rest of my horses. I never went into anything too extensive, and I still don't "follow" any of the trainers. When I'm stumped with something while I'm working with my horse, I'll go see what many people advise. Mainly, I just leave the rest up to instinct with the horse and myself. It's all very natural. Which, I believe, is where the term "natural horsemanship" came in. If you can't train your horse without keeping your head up some trainers butt the whole time, then what kind of horseman are you? 
I don't mean to offend anyone who religiously follows Clinton, Pat, or any other trainer. That's just my honest opinion.


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## MacabreMikolaj

I like Parelli's halter. That's about it. My friend lent me one of his dumb overpriced DVD's and I would have been furious if I actually plunked money down on it. All he did was work a TRAINED horse through the 7 games and not a single moment of trouble shooting. I went back to the barn and stared at my Arab's hiney for 20 minutes and she yawned. I think DVD training is the most useless thing out there and COMPLETELY inappropriate for beginners. Beginners should have hands on coaching from a physical person to correct things as they happen. Thinking you can train a horse using only DVD's is like thinking you can get to Prix St Georges Dressage with only DVDs. At some point you NEED eyes and educated minds on the ground to guide you through your mistakes. 

And it speaks volumes that the people swearing themselves to one trainer or another are the ones freaking out, throwing temper tantrums, name calling and (my favorite), calling real trainers "narrow minded" for daring to not like Pat or Clint or whoever else they don't deem necessary in their training program. 

Guess what kids? It's called an opinion. You don't have to agree with it. You can disagree and walk away. But throwing temper tantrums because you refuse to see someone elses opinion only proves the point of what kind of people dedicate themselves to ONE trainer and refuse to see the intelligence of any others - a rank amateur who will never progress in the horse world. 

Also, I have never liked how horses doing NH (mostly Parellis), ALWAYS have their ears pinned while working. And I mean PINNED like in that video. Some member on here tried explaining it away as "concentration" and its such hogwash. If a horse is running beside you with his ears FLAT AGAINST HIS HEAD - you're going to end up like the woman in the video at some point because that horse does NOT respect you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HorseCrazyTeen

One other thing I like about Clinton is that he uses problem horses or untrained horses for his videos and has a lot on problem solving. I respect him and his experience and like his methods-- UN-like Pat. I think of him just what the above poster says. However, I don't remotely follow just one trainer or one method, and my instructor with 50 years of experience is better than any of them, really, imo. Heck, she won the_ World Championship_! (In western pleasure I believe.)


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## equitate

Being lead mare is pretty easy, but it is accomplished every day by leadership and trust. It takes milliseconds and clear body language.


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## dknatura

soenjer55 said:


> Frankly what little I know about Hempfling makes me like him, definitely more than Parelli or Anderson. I still don't like the idea of "playing" with a horse, personally, but like I said, there are still things in the video that I appreciate. He's obviously not new to horses and has quite a bit of experience tucked in there. I'm not going to set down any absolutes about him because, like you said, I don't know enough.


I am glad you write this, because if there is one thing Hempfling never does it is 'playing' in the sense of just tolling around, and he is very strongly advicing never to do so because it is really dangerous. He is 100% aware the whole time that every split second is ful of serious meant signals from the horse, and if you read them wrong and react in a way that makes the horse think that you are no longer the alpha, you are in trouble. He works very much with dominance, but he does have a different definition of that word. I guess it is a bit off topic, and I guess it is my fault (sorry folks ) but Hempflings latest essay onj his facebook page describes wonderfully how different he perceives the horse (he also wrote a lot about dominance not so long ago), and I think that is where many people do not understand his approach - he would agree with more of what has been said here than people would expect I beleive, but he simply 'saddles the horse from the other side' if you know what I mean. In any case I do insist that horses which are trained by predator methods might function, might seem nice and well educated, but they are NOT having a deep bond with their human being and they are NOT partocularly happy horses. And I find that sad!


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## dknatura

jaydee said:


> I guess you have to decide for yourself if you want to be the true alpha leader that your horse trusts and relies on in all situations and so follows willingly because it sees you as its leader
> or
> If you want to be the bully that you see as the alpha which is the horse the others run away from and avoid and would prefer not to follow but to be as far away from as possible
> I have a 'bully' amongst my 'herd' of five and she is most definitely not the leader when it comes down to it. She may push the others away from food but she lacks confidence in 'scarey' situations and is totally dependant on the calm reliable passive alpha mare to give the lead - and when this mare wants what she wants she just walks quietly through and they all move away and let her - I have never once seen her attack another horse or even look mean, she just somehow commands respect - maybe because they all know in their own 'horsey way' thats she's the one they all rely on and so cant do without.
> This should be a clip from a longer video where Mark Rashid explains very well how a herd actually works. Ignore the bit tacked on the end as not relevant.
> Alpha or bully? - YouTube


I think you are right that the true leader never really has the need to fight, because the others instinctively know whan they come accross another horse of genuine alpha-character (that is why Hempfling encourages us to develop true leadership qualities - Rashid says the same and also works with similar principles, though their way separate when it comes to the groundwork/riding). The bully, or the somewhat bully - comes down to the same - might have arned some respect at a ceryain point in time because the others know that it is a bully, but it will never become the real leader of the herd, unless of course the herd is without horse of leadership capacity, which is often the case in our domesticated mini herds - in that case the bully might look like it's the leader.


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## dknatura

equitate said:


> Hempling does not start out with what he is doing loose, there is much training in hand first. Imho what he does is NOT for beginners who cannot read behaviors/responses in DEPTH.He makes it LOOK easy because he is experienced in PROGRESSIVE training. But the question is why do work loose? It is safer for horse and rider to train for purpose (which should be riding), and keep control. Anything else really ends up (sadly) being for market share, to impress non horsemen to buy products. What he does is a basis for future training (whether it is circus work or riding). The rest is circus (my mom did that as a child) but often does not play into a more useful riding horses per se. Too many people do not understand that horses are equine, not human. They are only doing what they would do with other horses, too many amorphisize them to humans. He knows not to do that, but is humble in their presence as well.


I have seen Hempfling work with horses he never saw before and he does start out loose (but of course inside an arena until he and the horse have bonded deeply enough for doing the same outside) - always, because that is the best way how he can make clear to the horse that he is the leader without putting any pressure on it. There are phases later on where he uses a slack rope on a normal stable halter to introduce the leading, but he continues working the horse loose most of the time, in between phases of lunging again with that slack rope. This latest video from him shows the steps (in short flashes of course - otherwise it would hae been very long because he uses a LOT OF TIME), but this is the way he does it: 



. There is nothing fake about his presentation of his procedure. But he has been working a lot with himself and his physical/mental awareness etc. and that is what you don't see in his videos! But well, I think I did now go enough off topic - i will stop and let you continue discussing Pat and Clint...but I still do not fancy any of them together with a horse - sorry but I think we human beings can do much better than that!


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