# After Some Dressage Lessons - The Latest Cinny Vid



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I'm not in any way an expert, but she looks like she's trying to get away from the contact and somewhat pulling on you. I may be wrong though.

I'd really recommend to post it in Dressage section - you may get very helpful critique/suggestions from some very experienced dressage folks (who rarely come to this section of the forum).


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## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

Apart from what you have said the first thing i noticed was your hands. they are very far apart and a bit too far down. I know it feels weird and like you lose the contact, but once you and Cinny get used to having your hands together and elevated you will find he will keep a more consistent outline and he will be softer to your hands.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Hey there! Nice to see an update, Cinny is such a beauty, you are a lucky owner.

Here is what I see:
- Cinny needs to move forwards more. If you look carefully in the video, notice where his back hoof is landing - a good two hoofprints _behind_ the hoofprint left by his front feet. What would be ideal is that he steps _into_ the hoofprint left by each respective front hoof or at least close.
-Cinny seems a little restless, evident as some head throwing and leaning his head on one side. I would attribute this to the fact that he is doing sort of a 'half trot' rather than a fuller, more swinging trot and working properly. I would like to see you push him up and allow him to reach for that bit which will settle all the head movement.

Other than that, shoulders back, toes forward and good luck!!


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Speedy - Actually, it does feel very odd to me. I am actually used to having my hands much closer together and by his withers. For now, my trainer wants me to ride him this way. I am not sure if this is typical for dressage but she did say that she wants Cinny to feel like he has more room. I couldn't get him onto the bit at all my old way, but this new way he is starting to "look for contact."

sarahver - I agree with you. It's funny, in my lessons we can get him to move that way but a few days later we somehow loose it. That's one of the reasons for the vid, I want to see what I'm doing wrong. I know he can do it, he has done it, and somehow I'm keeping him from continuing. I am going to see if someone can vid my next lesson so I can see what the difference is.

I think this may be on my list of things to ask this Saturday when I ride in a clinic with Sarah Martin. Or maybe it should be a main thing as it's pretty important.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> Speedy - Actually, it does feel very odd to me. I am actually used to having my hands much closer together and by his withers. For now, my trainer wants me to ride him this way. I am not sure if this is typical for dressage but she did say that she wants Cinny to feel like he has more room. I couldn't get him onto the bit at all my old way, but this new way he is starting to "look for contact."


My dressage trainer (and she's very good and very respected in area) makes me ride same way. She said I'll keep them close when my horse will be better trained. In fact I found my both horses to be more responsive when I ride that way.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> My dressage trainer (and she's very good and very respected in area) makes me ride same way. She said I'll keep them close when my horse will be better trained. In fact I found my both horses to be more responsive when I ride that way.


Oh good, I was starting to think maybe I need to change trainers or something already lol. But no, when I'm in my lessons and she is telling me what to do, Cinny moves out so wonderfully it almost makes me want to cry. The first time he did it she said she didn't even know he had a trot like that in him and has even changed her opinion of what he can do. So, alas....I know it's me going wrong and outside of my lessons I can't figure it out. I think I desperately need someone to video my next lesson.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Muuuuuuuch better from before! He's still fretting, but he's sorting through his OWN demons now as opposed to trying to escape the discomfort. It does concern me how worried he is over the contact and bit - I'm sorry, I'm afraid I don't know his back story, is there a reason for it? I'm not seeing a horse that's worrying over what YOU'RE doing, he's just worried period.

Definitely a "bigger" post - my Dressage coach calls it "bungee butt". :lol: Every rising stride that you want impulsion from, should feel like you have bungee cords attached from your butt to the saddle that you have to "pull" against. Once you master that sensation, you'll realize it's because you're posting from your thighs and not your feet. It's BRUTAL but it definitely works. This will also encourage a bigger and more open trot from Cinny and drive him forward with your impulsion as opposed to your legs and allowing him to suck back behind the impulsion.

For a horse like Cinny, you definitely want low wide hands - this is how most young horses are started, and the hands in the typical close together format is the "finished" product. I think in critiquing you, people need to understand that the work is not just you, it's Cinny as well, and "showring" equitation simply isn't going to work all the time when you're schooling a young or difficult horse. Low wide hands create a bigger and softer area that results in less evasion. You have to TEACH him what a contact means, what softness means, what suppleness means before you can hope to ask him like a trained horse and have him respond.

I'm extremely impressed with the progress you've both made, and have no doubts you'll be going for gold by next summer!


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Thank you MacabreMikolaj and yes, now that I am reading your post I am realizing, in my lessons I really FEEEEEEEL the burn so bad, and when I'm not in lessons I don't. I am going to remember your "bungee" cord that really helps. All I do in between lessons is practice the lessons because I really want to show my trainer that I do pay attention and implement what she says so I really want to get the end result of last lesson down perfect for my next. I know, not always an achievable goal, but one I try to get anyway.

There isn't much history with this horse and bitting except that, until last May (he was 7 years) he never really HAD a bit in his mouth except for whatever was shoved in his mouth to "break" him at 2 (he went to a typical reining 30 day, which really means he was ridden probably 1 day lol), and the stock curb that came with the western headset his previous owner tried to ride him in last summer...which proved to not work at all (she sold him to me as UNTRAINED).

I started with a loose ring sweet iron and moved to a plain full cheek when I needed a little more influence to bend his head and turn. He learned to get leverage on that so we went with a Fulmer (like a full cheek but with loose rings) to remedy that. I have just now put him into a Herm Sprenger WH Ultra Loose Ring Snaffle Bit (Dover Saddlery | Herm Sprenger WH Ultra Loose Ring Snaffle Bit .) and he has really quite improved. I know it is not yet USEF approved but my trainer and I think it's a great stepping stone. I used her Herm Sprenger Dynamic RS Loose Ring Snaffle Bit (Dover Saddlery | Herm Sprenger Dynamic RS Loose Ring Snaffle Bit .) and it was good, but he just wasn't quite "there" with it, if you know what I mean. Today was only the 2nd time I used the WH.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

*Yep, there's improvement goin' on!*

Hi Cinny's mom,

The video shows definite improvement and it's nice that you can both see and feel this yourself. The saddle looks to improve his comfort. Would be nice to see a closeup shot of it on his back, with him standing on level ground and squared up.
I agree that holding your hands open and low is a well known training technique to encourage the horse to reach forward and downward, into your hands/bit. The thing is that you have to work on "following" him down when he goes down. Don't just let him reach downward and then he hits the end of the bit and bounces back up. you have to maintain a soft, CONSTANT contact that will go forward with him as he reaches. It's tricky because once he's down there, you will have to continue posting and keeping a steady contact with his mouth for as long as he is down there. In a short time he will choose to come back up and you have to follow him back up. The neat thing about having your hands in this sort of low, and out to the side position is that you can shorten and lengthen your reins somewhat without actually sliding them along the rein. When you have your hands wide, the reins are effectively shortened (think of a triangle). This will be for when he raises his head and you must quickly shorten your rein in order to not loose the contact. If he puts his head up you follow and you might "tickle" the rein with your inside hand wherein he might react by reaching downward, you will have to bring your hands close together to effectively create longer reins to follow that downward reach. And agaign and again. 
Actually, you are doing not a bad job there. I think you are catching on really fast and in awhile it will come easier.
Anothe rider talked about posting bigger. I agree. You need to encourage every bit of energy out of his trot and lifting more up./forward will encourage him.

What I see happening is that you are still just the tiniest bit "behind" his motion because your legs are still out in front of you in a bit of a chair seat, thus you are kind of "sucking" yourself up , instead of "lifting" yourself more straigtht upward off your ankle and thigh. Again, if Cinny disappeared from under you , you would be too far behind you own center of gravity to land standing and keep your balance. 
You have to get those legs back under you a bit more. I might shorten my stirrups just ONE and really think about your heel seeking down/back toward Cinny's back feet. Think of his energy flowing through your lower abdomen into your hands. Let him come through you.

You might like to get yourself a pair of half chaps to protect your tender calves from the stirrup leather biting you in the trot. Also gives extra grip.

Once in awhile ask Cinny to trot vigorously forward on a loose, and I mean you hold the reins on the buckle, loose rein. You want to refresh his "forward". Too much focus on the bit and contact on the front end shuts down the rear end. Also, it feels good to the horse and establishes trust between you. Just drop the rein, hold the buckle and ask him to trot out. you can always just go briskly along the rail, since where he goes isn't as important as just giving him a break and moving him out again. 

One last thing. You can do a ton of work with a horse merely at the walk. You just walk, encourage the stretching, do the loose rein, do turns , turns. stops. small circles what ever comes to mind and when you get something from him that feels GOOD. STOPPPPPP. pet him, end the session.

The last place your horse is emotionally at the end of a work session is the most important of all the moments you had with him. If you got something good from him, take it and let that be enough for the day. One can't necesaarily do that every day, like when you have paid for an hour lesson or what, but when you can, Cinny will find training more rewarding.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

tinyliny thank you. Yes I do a lot of walking, pretty close to 20 minutes to half an hour is all walking with me periodically letting go of the reins to the buckle, but haven't done this in the trot yet. We also work on our circles at a walk, mostly our 10 and 20 meters and arena positioning with our markers and getting to know where our markers are. This is more for me than him. 

In a lesson I am encouraged to give him "down time" and a lot of praise. During my own rides I do this pretty much every time he gets something correct, we stop and reward. He has been having issues with standing in the arena so now we periodically stand until he drops his head and licks. This is also the very last thing we do before I dismount. Sometimes he's so heated up from a ride that it can take about 5 minutes to get him to do this, but it's usually worth the wait. 

And I plan to buy half chaps before my clinic lesson on Saturday...yay.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I like the sound of your training rides. Really neat to hear how other people think and plan their rides. I hope you aren't insulted by the leg thingy. Did you used to ride hj?

Sometimes when I go for an arena ride (I have to ride 30 minutes through trails to get to our neighborhood park with an arena), I don't know what I am going to do. I just start going and see what he tells me he wants/needs to do (other than go home, of course)
I really need to get a teacher. It is so much more productive to have a good teacher.
I had a really good dressage teacher for almost 3 years. She was kind of mean and went from barn to barn and kept having such bad relations with people that she burned her bridges behind her. BUT she always put the horse first and she spend HOURS and HOURs on fundamentals like position and having the horse going forward and reaching to the bit. She did not allow me to go up to the next level until I had gotten a 70% at the level I was at. 
Consequently, I didn't go far, but I hardly showed at all. When I did get to a 70% at training level, I had finally had it with her so very difficult personality and we split ways. But she gave me a foundation that is much closer to the classical than a lot of folks whose focus is more on outline and geometry and gadgetry. I don't mean to sound like I'm any great rider. Especialy since I have really only been trail riding for the last 3 years. I am soooo far out of shape dressage wise. Just that I am grateful for all that she taught me and am looking for a teacher with a similar philosophy. Harder to find than you would think, at least in my area . (I am not willing to drive great distances. Lazy and have old car and needy teen kids)

Ariat makes great half chaps. I have some Grand Priz ones, but they are expensive.
I said this in another forum but if you get the kind of half chaps that are cut away at the heel area, they will not interfere with your spurs, if and when you ever choose to wear them. They make my calves feel "snuggly". If you are on the fence about size, get the one that is a tiny bit smaller, rather than looser. They stretch.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> sarahver - I agree with you. It's funny, in my lessons we can get him to move that way but a few days later we somehow loose it. That's one of the reasons for the vid, I want to see what I'm doing wrong. I know he can do it, he has done it, and somehow I'm keeping him from continuing. I am going to see if someone can vid my next lesson so I can see what the difference is.


Sorry, I spose I gave you the 'what' but not the 'why' or the 'how' from that video - not all that helpful!

In order for him to move forwards, you really need to use more of a driving seat. When you are posting, try not to think of it as 'up' and 'down' but 'forwards' and 'back'. Anchor your heels down, toes forwards resting on the girth, not further forwards than that. When you rise to the trot, the motion should come purely from your hips and not from your lower leg, as you rise think of pushing him forwards with your own forwards motion through your hips. 

Same at a walk, use you seat to 'push' him rather than using leg cues to encourage a faster gait, like you are rocking him forwards with every forwards step that he takes. If you just use leg aids he may walk _faster_ but what you really want is for him to walk with more _impulsion_, this comes from the hindquarters.

I think you are doing a good job with your hands, the contact is ready to be taken up by him but not forced on him at all, now all you need is to push him up to it a little.

Good luck!


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## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> Speedy - Actually, it does feel very odd to me. I am actually used to having my hands much closer together and by his withers. For now, my trainer wants me to ride him this way. I am not sure if this is typical for dressage but she did say that she wants Cinny to feel like he has more room. I couldn't get him onto the bit at all my old way, but this new way he is starting to "look for contact."


ok, fair enough, if your trainer told you to! He looks great though and once you have that contact and he gets the idea he will look like a great dressage horse, with a great dressage rider


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

You are really pulling the horse into a frame - hence the opposition from him. Any time a horse is that frantically waving his head and neck around to try and stay on his feet, he's trying to tell you something. In this case it is "stop pulling". You say a "respected" instructor in your area has told you to hold your hands in that way. Who respects her? I have "respected" instructors in my area that habitually raise 1" welts on their horses with whips and spurs, but I don't respect them, the yahoos do. 
Anyways.. with ANY horse I don't care how much training it's had, if you hold your hands softly in front of the pommel with the correct rein length and ride the horse to the contact - they will go round CORRECTLY. Also with any horse regardless of training, they will fight a hard, pulling back hand that is near the riders thighs. Yes the hands should be down, but they should always remain near the pommel/wither area and really never have to be more than 4" apart. When you are a dressage master that has ridden a few horses in the GP, then you can ride where ever you want with your hands, because they are educated properly. But until then they have a box and they stay in that box no matter what.
Otherwise your equitation is decent. Really focus on balance, your horse is throwing you from left to right and front to back like a ragdoll. You need to stay exactly in the center of the horse all the time. This will be much easier after you stop focusing on the head because trying to control a highly mobile part of the horse (head and neck) with your arms when said part of the horse weighs a few hundred pounds is bound to throw you off balance. Hands in front, ride with your seat and legs and balance.
Finally, the training scale is severely lacking. I highly suggest you review it. The first step is rhythm and it should be metronomic, then relaxation and THEN comes contact. You skipped the first two steps and went straight to the third so of course it's not going to work. As soon as the horse is rhythmic, balanced and relaxed and you let him trust your hands, he will be round. You can't force the horse into a frame with your hands and expect to have a happy partner.

Good luck!


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

Entirely agree with Anabel. First and foremost you need a supple, energetic, FORWARD stride in EVERY gait. You need to forget about his head and ride his body. You want to let him stretch for the contact, ride him on as loose a rein as you can and still maintain pace and steering. Get him moving out, stretching with his legs and striding up. When you ask for a bigger trot you don't want to post higher or bigger persay, you just want to draw out the post. You also want to be careful that you aren't posting with your hands. You want your hands in an even position around the pommel and you want to bring your hips forward to your hands, not the other way around. You want your hips to come forward and slightly up on the up beat and you want there to be a slight "hang time". Don't be in a hurry to come back down. The longer you stay "up" the longer your horse is going to use his back and hind end to reach under him. If you are sitting too soon you are shortening his stride. 

Also, I would suggest you play with your stirrups. Your leg is WAY too far forward to begin to have an effective forward trot. I would start with lengthening a hole or two and work on learning to sink down into the saddle with your thighs and bringing your lower leg back and your heels down. You need to have AT LEAST a straight ling from hip to heel and knee to toe. If you have trouble get an exercise ball and practice that position until you can maintain those lines. Don't think of it as just jamming your heel down, think of it as though you're sliding down over a barrel and gripping with your thighs, first pushing down into your knees and then sinking into your heel. 

You also want to learn to be effective with your hands and upper body BEFORE you ask for contact. Then when you start to ask for some contact you want to firm up your wrists and get your forearms almost parallel to the ground. You want your thumbs on top and your hands going no farther apart than your hip bones. You want to learn to feel an ounce of pressure in each rein and maintain it through small movements of your arms to maintain contact, you don't want to go from tight to loopy reins and back again because that will frustrate your horse and you. You want your elbows elastically tied into your hips not canted out from your body. Your power comes from your core so you want to tie everything as close to your body as possible while still being mobile. While I agree that sometimes opening up the rein angle can be beneficial for a green horse it should be done correctly and by someone with an independent seat and hands. For now you need to get your leg and seat in a better, more effective place before you start adding contact and worrying about hand placement. Large figures on a loose rein concentrating on your position with the correct lower body position, keeping your upper body and eyes lifted and open with a relaxed yet supple arm placement will work wonders for you. 

I understand you have come a long way but you really need to go back to the fundamentals now and get YOU solid before you start to ask your horse for anything more than stop, start and steer.


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## Fellen (Mar 29, 2008)

Agree with Anebel on the hands issue! There is no reason to ride like that. Especially because you say yourself you have trouble staying out of his mouth. Focus on keeping your hands in the "box" and then your hands will be still. 
My trainer likes to say "calm hands lead to a calm horse". 
Also agree that your horse has to be more forward. 

Also concentrait on getting your toes pointed inward. If your toes point toward your horse your knee and upper leg are automatically closed around your horse (or saddle) and your lower leg isn't constantly "talking" to the horse. Which means you only use your lower leg to give your horse clear signals.


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

Cinny, you have made real progress over the summer and kudos to you for getting a trainer and taking dressage lessons. I think you are fighting an up hill battle being a green rider on a green horse. Well, obviously there isn't much that can be done about that but perhaps you can have lessons on a well schooled horse so you take half the battle out of the equation? I would also suggest having someone school Cinny for you as it is going to be a real challenge trying to fix his problems while fixing your own.

you'd be amazed at how much more quickly you progress when you have a horse who knows his job and this in turn will translate to much better and HAPPIER rides with Cinny too. When you're on a well trained horse, he tells you instantly when you're doing something right. Just a suggestion.

Keep up the good work though, I see lots of improvement from your other videos! And as usual, Anebel has given some very sound advice so listen to her!


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## MissH (Apr 10, 2010)

I'm not really following this too closely - but I've seen your vids since the beginning, and I'd say this is a wonderful difference. Congrats!


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## RogueMare (Feb 17, 2010)

Ok, I didn't read any of the comments from everyone else, but I really wanted to leave a critique bc dressage is becoming my forte.  First off, I love your improvement. These are the main things I noticed though. 
-Keep your toes in, and your heels back a little bit more. It'll really help with keeping him forward, and I would work on driving him with your hips instead of only using leg cues. When you post, try posting a little bit higher, but don't grip with your legs! My worst habit is gripping, as my trainer says, "Like a crazy western girl." 
-When he's trotting he should be "tracking up" which means that his back hooves should be falling into his front tracks. Eventually he'll be able to maintain a slower trot, and still track up it just takes muscle and practice. 
-While your hands should be wide considering Cinny is a green horse, you should still have a little bit more contact, and try to keep your hands more steady. My trainer says you should have a constant light contact at all times, by ounces, not pounds, and when you get on the horse, your hands aren't yours anymore. They're Cinny's, keep your wrists loose, and your hands should give a little bit with a normal head bob at all three gaits (not that crazy head tossing. ) 
-To help with the head bobbing try massaging the reins in your hands(while still maintaining a light contact), give and take, give and take in a slow rhythm, it'll help get his head down and help to stop his nose racing the rest of his body. 

Heres a page I like to read, they've got some great information about dressage thats really helped me improve my riding.  

Classical Dressage


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