# What is this guy's deal?



## Noebelle (May 29, 2017)

I made a thread earlier about possible ESPA/DSLD with this guy but my vet doesn't think it's super likely and I got mixed opinions, but I swear this isn't another "diagnose my horse" thread. I was more curious in getting an in-general conformation opinion since I have a hunch his confo is pretty dang bad. I've recently learned from one of his old vets that it was assumed that he suffered a fracture of some kind (left front leg) responsible for the calcification there.
Guess I'm just curious about how he's put together, what he might be good for and just for my own learning.

Next time I go out to see him I'm going to clip his feathers so I can see more of what's going on down there with his legs. I'll post those pictures here once I do.

He is a six year old Friesian/Shire/Paint. 16.3hh.

Normal sideviews:









































Worrying:


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

If you really want a conformation critique then those are the kind of pictures you need to post.
Sorry, but these are snap-shots most of them and don't show what needs seen accurately enough.
If you are looking for a disputing diagnosis against a vet..._*not from me!*_
Your vet knows the horse, knows the living conditions and care the horse receives and is far better educated than I in what might or might not be happening.

Your horses pedigree has leg feathers..._.don't cut them off._
Unless there is a real reason to clip those legs,_ don't..._.:sad:

There are many here that are extremely knowledgeable about drafts and draft crosses....
What some would think is a issue might not be on the "heavy" boys....

The only thing I really see is a weird stance of all 4 legs drawn together under the horse...now why he chose to stand that way in that instant..:shrug:
Then in the next pictures he's standing just fine....
:runninghorse2:....
_jmo..._


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## ducky1234 (May 2, 2017)

horselovinguy said:


> Your horses pedigree has leg feathers..._.don't cut them off._
> Unless there is a real reason to clip those legs,_ don't..._




Great advice if you are showing. Flowing feathers look awesome in the show ring whether in-hand, under saddle, or driving. Takes an ungodly amount of time and a fortunate streak of dry weather for most owners of feathered friends to get that look. In some respects, getting those long feathers is harder than achieving those desirous long tails.

Other than for a human's viewing pleasure, feathers are just like any other hair. Clip if you want. The horse won't care. (Well, the horse MAY care. But then this would be some sort of training equine for clipping thread.)


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

horselovinguy said:


> Your horses pedigree has leg feathers..._.don't cut them off._
> Unless there is a real reason to clip those legs,_ don't..._.:sad:


There is a real reason, a desire for a diagnosis. 

To take photographs of legs and feet, pose on a dead flat level surface, against a contrasting colored background (in your case, light colored), and make sure the legs are square and plumb. Get the camera on the same plane as what you are photographing (i.e.: inches above the ground, for pasterns). And please, clip the feathers. Otherwise there is no point, no one can see anything.

<personal rant insertion>People get utterly irrational about hair. I have a friend with a Bearded Collie (looks like a small Old English Sheepdog with a tail). My friend is aging, has health problems, and now dreads the maintenance that coat entails. But she would rather re-home the dog than keep it clipped. I just don't get it. It's not like you're cutting their ears off -- hair grows back! Removal is totally painless! The animal is just the same as when they were hairy, just less hairy now! I just don't get it and I never will. </personal rant insertion>


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I have a clyde cross that would be called a Gypsy vanner or gypsy cob and I clip her feathers because I really have no interest in all that hair. It doesn't affect the way she rides and she's a lot easier to manage without it so I see no problem with clipping this horses feathers off - they'll grow back
The horse does seem to want to stand with his front legs tucked underneath him and I wonder if that's because something is making it more comfortable for him to position himself that way?
Has your vet done any radiographs or ultra sounds to reach the conclusion?


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

I know of three purebred Friesians who are shown with clipped legs, one even has a PULLED mane!!! They don't show in breed classes, but do show in USEF dressage and even have won breed year-end championships just fine. They just don't like the extra work of feather maintenance, so just do a full body clip. 

They fully grow back just fine when you stop clipping them every few weeks. 

Feathers can be inconvenient. I am constantly fussing with my friesian's feathers to make sure they are dry, and that she doesn't have the start of scratches. It can add an easy hour during winter/or when it is wet out/raining and I am in a constant battle to prevent mud on my property. 

I have know feathered horses that NEEDED their feathers clipped when dealing with a bad case of scratches and a few other leg issues.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Are you asking about ESPA/DSLD or asking for a critique of his build?
There is a difference....
ESPA/DSLD...
You are talking about a ligament disease originally....hidden underneath skin, hair and in this case leg feathers...
Disease that has progression if left undiagnosed and untreated.
So "looking" isn't diagnosing anything but your guesstimate.
Guessing isn't good enough...
Ultrasounds, radiographs are what is being needed...maybe MRI. Add blood chemistry and possibly specific tests ordered.
Today, biopsies of other tissue that have correlation and changes mirroring the ligament tissue are being done. Damaged tissues...
What I do know is those diagnostic tests can be done with the feathers on or off...
They look inside not at the outside.

Don't get me wrong...shave him bald if it makes you happy.. and at times I would be the first one wielding the clipper.
In this case, I don't see it making a difference to technology...tests can be performed through the hair. They might not even need a tissue sample from the leg...
Like I originally wrote though...
_I am not a vet and won't second guess a vets opinion, I won't._
None to my knowledge are vets either who have made a comment nor would a good vet put out a diagnosis without seeing test results first...
Do the testing, add the resulting information exactly and as accurately a description and wording as you are told...screen shot the written results and paste it if it is easier...
There are differences in what to do and why in different breeds too...unless you are a expert in "draft".... mum should be the word.
At least in my book....

As for conformation...
Yes, I saw his wonky knees and weird growths and abnormalities...his strange stance.
But I don't know,_ I'm not a vet!_
I can't tell you if it is scarring, bone build up from fractures, ligament or bone disease...or does he hurt elsewhere for a different reason and a weight shift helps alleviate pain.
Testing,...bloods, xrays or radiographs, ultrasounds done may answer some of those questions.
Those diagnostics though need done be a qualified vet for definitive answers...not someone picking apart your horse from snap-shots.
_Sorry, that is *my* rant...

_As for his overall build....he is more than decently built.
He has many pluses with a eh because of his knees, but with consideration taken for those knees I see no reason why he can't do most anything he is comfortable doing at this point...
Now, that can change with a diagnosis bearing a physical exam and those diagnostic tests referred to...
Otherwise, he looks like a really nice horse...well loved._
Enjoy him!
_ 
And now onward back to you not having faith in your vet...
If you don't trust your vets opinion get another opinion.
Load up and take the horse to a top-notch veterinary school or center for in-depth testing and a look-see....for answers from experts with the best education.
You might not like what you hear, then again...you might jump for joy if it is the "right" diagnosis given. 

Apologies jaydee, you posted as I was typing, was interrupted and came back to post again some thoughts. 
I agree tests need done...clip if you want but that does not need done to do these diagnostic testing procedures..
It _*is*_ a "look" on this type of horse... obviously a look the OP likes or would of clipped those feathers and excess hair off a long time ago. 
I just see no point in changing a appearance for this reason...it isn't needed, yet! :icon_frown:
 :runninghorse2:.....
_jmo..._


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

And yes, the vet should be doing an ultrasound to confirm that there is no underlying suspensory INJURY or disease underlying. He may have terrible conformation, but diagnostics are required, not eyes. 

A second opinion with a solid lameness vet may be in order. 

He is young to have DSLD, but we have seen some cases even younger.


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## Noebelle (May 29, 2017)

horselovinguy said:


> If you really want a conformation critique then those are the kind of pictures you need to post.
> Sorry, but these are snap-shots most of them and don't show what needs seen accurately enough.
> If you are looking for a disputing diagnosis against a vet..._*not from me!*_
> Your vet knows the horse, knows the living conditions and care the horse receives and is far better educated than I in what might or might not be happening.
> ...


Sorry, I think I must have worded it strangely or something - I'm looking for conformation critique, not a dispute of any existing or non-existing diagnosis. I mentioned the possible fracture so that people would know why his legs might be a bit odd. 
Also I've only had him for about a month or so now. And I live in an extremely wet and rainy place (Washington State) so my vet recommended clipping his feathers anyway, I only just bought a new clipper and haven't been back to my farm in a couple days due to a family emergency. (Which explains the lack of solid confo images for the time being. I thought the one(s) where he's squared or almost-squared were good, but I know they're dark and possibly a bit angled because his head looks gigantic.)


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## Noebelle (May 29, 2017)

Avna said:


> There is a real reason, a desire for a diagnosis.
> 
> To take photographs of legs and feet, pose on a dead flat level surface, against a contrasting colored background (in your case, light colored), and make sure the legs are square and plumb. Get the camera on the same plane as what you are photographing (i.e.: inches above the ground, for pasterns). And please, clip the feathers. Otherwise there is no point, no one can see anything.
> 
> <personal rant insertion>People get utterly irrational about hair. I have a friend with a Bearded Collie (looks like a small Old English Sheepdog with a tail). My friend is aging, has health problems, and now dreads the maintenance that coat entails. But she would rather re-home the dog than keep it clipped. I just don't get it. It's not like you're cutting their ears off -- hair grows back! Removal is totally painless! The animal is just the same as when they were hairy, just less hairy now! I just don't get it and I never will. </personal rant insertion>


I have an Australian Shepherd and it /could/ be that the dog has a double coat. You're not supposed to shave or clip those types of dogs because it helps regulate their body temperature and may not ever grow back! 

I will definitely take some better photos once I get back to my farm, and post them here! Thanks for the tips!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Unless showing in a breed show, where those feathers are valued, I would clip them.
Horses with lots of feathering provide a great place for fungus and other opportunistic organisms to set up shop
In fact, draft breeds with all that feathering are prone to a serious inflammation of the coronary band.
They will grow back, if you really want them to be there! Right now, it would provide better images as to how his pasterns line up, and to see if they are as dropped as they appear to be in some of those pictures, which is not normal for any horse, JMO
As for conformation in general, better standard conformation shots are needed
Horse stood up square, side view, front view and back view
Is he sound? Certainly not ruling out the need for diagnostic tests


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

I agree that better pictures or needed. From what I see he isn't bad looking, like somebody else mentioned. If feathers being gone will benefit him, then I say shave 'em! They will come back.

On the side note about the dogs though, don't worry. It's perfectly fine to shave an Aussie or similar dog down short. They grow back just fine (trust me you see the double coat when you dry them, lol) and in fact it's better for them in the summer as it keeps them cooler. I know that from personal experience (mom is a groomer). Regulating body temperature isn't so much a problem for dogs that live inside our little climate controlled worlds.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I find the way he is camped under in the front to be odd. it's as if he is rocking forward more onto his front legs, putting more weight over and in front of his front legs. I wonder if he is trying to take weigh off the back? or ?

I know there are stances that indicate pain. 

However, he does not look like a horse that is in pain. he looks relaxed and at ease, so I suspect it has nothig to do with trying to avoid pain.

He is actually a pretty nice guy and suffers from terminal adorability. watch out, it's very contagious.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 said:


> I agree that better pictures or needed. From what I see he isn't bad looking, like somebody else mentioned. If feathers being gone will benefit him, then I say shave 'em! They will come back.
> 
> On the side note about the dogs though, don't worry. It's perfectly fine to shave an Aussie or similar dog down short. They grow back just fine (trust me you see the double coat when you dry them, lol) and in fact it's better for them in the summer as it keeps them cooler. I know that from personal experience (mom is a groomer). Regulating body temperature isn't so much a problem for dogs that live inside our little climate controlled worlds.


^^Agree, know many people who clip their Aussies and the coats grow back fine and beautiful. There are some "old wives' tales" out there about clipping horses and dogs. I trim my Papillon, and his hair grows back the same every time. I'm not sure how clipping could affect either genetics or hair follicles.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

My suspicion is that he is in the beginning stages of DSLD. The disease does run in Fresians. In the early stages it is difficult to diagnose. 

My mare was slightly off behind in the beginning. She was reluctant to do flying changes of lead, was rushing fences. I had two vets up. The first could not diagnose anything. The second thought it was arthritis. We started her on adequan and I believe we did inject her hocks. Neither helped. We retired her from jumping in 2005. 

Only years later did it become apparent what was going on. The farrier noticed her ankles were "lower" than normal. I like to think of their ligaments as a rubber band, and with this disease, they stretch out. The ankles very gradually drop lower, eventually you get swelling, and secondary arthritis. This happens gradually over years. 

I had another vet look at her when her ankles started swelling (2011 maybe?). She thought it was a mild sprain. We had her ultrasounded a few weeks later- everything looked normal. I don't think the vets are incompetent. I think that in the early stages, it is a very easy disease to miss. 

If he were mine I would not throw money at diagnostics. If he is sound now, I would keep riding him. Keep him fit and ride him lightly. 

If you really want a diagnosis, you would need a series of ultrasound tests to determine the thickness of the suspension ligaments. Test now, and if that is normal, repeat the test a year or two later.

He is a beautiful horse regardless. Enjoy him for what he can offer you. He is young and you should have many years together. 

Friesians can also suffer from dwarfism which can cause flexor tendon laxity.


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## alikreegs1 (Jun 19, 2017)

It is not uncommon to find friesians/friesian crosses with long and or sloping pasterns. Some say it helps them get the suspension for that flashy action they get. Your fella doesn't look to have long pasterns, he looks proportionate in that sense. 
My Friesian TWH cross has pasterns like your fella. It depends on how he stands but his pasterns will drop when he adds a lot of his weight to them. I asked my vet about it. He said I shouldn't worry because that is how the breed is bred. The pasterns help absorb the shock and make the gait more comfortable and smooth. 
Although if you're worried I would ask your vet. Only your vet can truly diagnose. 
DSLD is typically in the hind. but it can be in the front.


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