# What Conformational Faults are Common to Certain Breeds?



## travlingypsy (Apr 5, 2008)

ooooo good question! I dont have any answers, sorry. But what exactly is cow/sicle-hocked?


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

Clydesdales and Shires have been known to be cow hocked. In their breed I don't know it would be so much a conformation as much as how their conformation was meant for pulling.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

For Saddlebreds, I'll have to look back through my ASB forums for the list of perceived common conformational flaws. The two that I see most often are:

Cowhocks









Lordosis (fancy word for "low back") Relatively common, but definitely NOT something bred for. Personally, I don't care if a horse has a low back. I'd rather have a low back than a straight neck. 
From mild:









To severe:


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## travlingypsy (Apr 5, 2008)

YIKES! No need for a saddle with that severe back, Just wedge a fat butt in there and you aint going anywhere! 

Of course I know that horse isnt really ridable...


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## o0hawaiigirl0o (Aug 8, 2008)

I noticed that a lot of TBs have painfully high withers... We have one like that. Or is it just something that can be fixed by more groceries?


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## travlingypsy (Apr 5, 2008)

I dont think it can be fixed by more food. I have a tb cross and ive been fattening her up and her withers havent gotten lower.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

That was quite an extensive confo shot. Hard to believe that a horse like that can still get around. I would feel sorry for the animal.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Actually, that horse was very rideable. He is now retired at 20, but he was shown all over, and was eighth in a class of 20 at the World Championships some years ago. 

His saddle was pretty much custom to him. He was never lame, never sore, never put a foot out of place. He has no difficulty moving, running, rollng, kicking, trotting, carrying weight(granted we would never ask him to carry a very large rider), he could drive with the best of them. He was actually the horse I learned to drive. He could and did everything a straight backed horse could do with no trouble at all. 

That is the interesting thing about lordosis. Horses are about the only animal that can have such an extensive spinal condition without messing with the nervous system or other functions. They are pretty much "normal". The back does not affect their performance any. I could go get him and ride him tomorrow. We still have his saddle. I don't think his back would be the thing that would give me trouble, but his "I'm retired, let me back out." attitude.

ETA: Photo
Here he is and one of his pasturemates who is a lesson horse. The chestnut is probably 19(I'll have to check), and is about to come out of retirement to teach little W/T lessons. These were my sister's early horses(my first horse is actually the sire of the chestnut and out in that field as well). The bay is actually an orphan and to this day sees my older sister as Mama. They are family. Even though they are capable of doing, and we just don't use them, they earned their place a long time ago.










The chestnut's back was an interesting story, that makes us believe something different than the usual Why? to lordosis.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

That is incredible :shock: If I didn't believe your post, I would honestly think the horse was photoshopped.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

I'd be happy to take more pictures of either of them tomorrow. From all different angles so there would be no way I could have photoshopped them to be the same.  And heck, they are in my back pasture if you wanted to see them. They do need help in the spring to get all the hair off. You should see that chestnut horse play with my nephew's pony. They roughhouse like colts. It is very funny.

I really wouldn't say that "other" breeds would get lordosis THAT badly. The bay horse is about as bad as you will see it. I've seen some sway backed QHs, but never have I seen ^ that in other breeds.


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## claireauriga (Jun 24, 2008)

It's not really a flaw, but thoroughbreds tend to have tiny feet that are prone to hoof problems! I much prefer a horse with bigger, more cobby feet.


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## Gaited07 (Jul 25, 2008)

LadyDreamer said:


> For Saddlebreds, I'll have to look back through my ASB forums for the list of perceived common conformational flaws. The two that I see most often are:
> 
> Cowhocks
> 
> ...




Ladydreamer,
I don't know where you are seeing all these cow hocked Saddlebreds but I was raised with this breed and did not notice that many myself. It is mostly POOR BREEDING that is the promoter of this flaw and NOT a trait of the breed.
As for the sway back, that again is a breeding flaw (Supreme lines) which they was breeding too much of the "swan like" neck which weakened the back. And yes, this is (was) more typicial for the Saddlebred.(with these bloodlines, (ex: Supreme Sultan) 
Now with the Wing Commander lines carried the heavier head. The Society breeding was in my opinion, some of the best lines and if carefully crossed with the Supreme lines or Commander lines would result in a well balanced conformational Saddlebred.


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## DashAwayAll (Jul 19, 2008)

Maybe it's the nation too.

I have a TB and love the breed so I tend to pay more attention to them than other breeds.

Yes, they have high withers. That long shoulder is bred in to give them that long reach. The bonus of this is if your girth/cinch loosens, your saddle rarely slips. LOL. They also have looong necks and a more angular/slopey vs round rump . I sear it's these two things that give them that sexy gunslinger walk.

I haven't noticed any more sickle hocked or cow hocked Tbs than other breeds. In fact, much less. Though you do see a lot of over at the knees- but I'm told this is a trait a lot of hunter/jumpers look for.

American Tbs have BIG feet. Big paddle feet. They have a rep for 'shelly" hooves, but I have never run across that myself.

It's the QH with the smaller feet here - a beefy QH on smaller feet looks bigger and beefier. It's unfortunately a trait that pops up in halter horse lines..... and navicular tags along with it.

Least that's how it was in the mid-Atlantic area of the US. :?


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

> As for the sway back, that again is a breeding flaw (Supreme lines) which they was breeding too much of the "swan like" neck which weakened the back. And yes, this is (was) more typicial for the Saddlebred.(with these bloodlines, (ex: Supreme Sultan)
> Now with the Wing Commander lines carried the heavier head. The Society breeding was in my opinion, some of the best lines and if carefully crossed with the Supreme lines or Commander lines would result in a well balanced conformational Saddlebred.


I have one of those heavier headed societyx supremex commander horses (with a good back) 8)


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

LadyDreamer said:


> I'd be happy to take more pictures of either of them tomorrow. From all different angles so there would be no way I could have photoshopped them to be the same.  And heck, they are in my back pasture if you wanted to see them. They do need help in the spring to get all the hair off. You should see that chestnut horse play with my nephew's pony. They roughhouse like colts. It is very funny.
> 
> I really wouldn't say that "other" breeds would get lordosis THAT badly. The bay horse is about as bad as you will see it. I've seen some sway backed QHs, but never have I seen ^ that in other breeds.


No No, no need. I believe you  it's just I have never seen this before. Quite amazing what animals can deal with.


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## Erin_And_Jasper (Jul 5, 2008)

where i work there was a saddlebred mare who had a horrible back. and the people who owned her kept breeding her


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

lots of walking horses have really steep croups - many also have small eyes

_some_ arabs have really big ears (egyptian)

some quarterhorses have really short backs


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Gaited07 said:


> Ladydreamer,
> I don't know where you are seeing all these cow hocked Saddlebreds but I was raised with this breed and did not notice that many myself. It is mostly POOR BREEDING that is the promoter of this flaw and NOT a trait of the breed.
> As for the sway back, that again is a breeding flaw (Supreme lines) which they was breeding too much of the "swan like" neck which weakened the back. And yes, this is (was) more typicial for the Saddlebred.(with these bloodlines, (ex: Supreme Sultan)
> Now with the Wing Commander lines carried the heavier head. The Society breeding was in my opinion, some of the best lines and if carefully crossed with the Supreme lines or Commander lines would result in a well balanced conformational Saddlebred.


No, cowhocks are not a TRAIT of the breed, but this topic is not about traits. It is about FAULTS, and I merely said it was one that I see often. 

Our personal theory for the cause of lordosis, is that it is a "genetic response to a deficiency". Of course to test that, the backgrounds and condition in development(both before and after birth) of more than our two old gelding's would be needed. 

With our two, the bay horse's mother died having him and was in poor condition. The chestnut suffered a traumatic injury as a young foal which shut his immune system down. 

We "have" two low backed broodmares on the farm. One is in great health, and takes full advantage of good care. She had a foal last year by one of the last son's of Supreme Sultan, who has a nice, straight back. The other mare is by one of the last son's of Supreme Sultan, and is a miserably hard keeper. If given the same care as the other mare, she would be a rack of bones. Her foal right now has a low back. The question to me is not entirely, "Is that just genetics?" (because that is one major factor), but does the condition/health of the mare affect the foal. We have another mare by that last son of Supreme Sultan who came to us nearly starved to death with an undersized foal at her side. The foal did not have a low back, but looked as if he would be soft in the back. He doesn't have the straightest back in the world, but I think he got here in time to help the issue, before it became worse. 

Present with all breeds, my mare (six year old ASB) is a little pigeon toed, and has the tendency to 'wing'.


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## Sara (Jul 6, 2007)

Some Friesian lines are susceptible to weak stifles.


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## Skyhuntress (Sep 9, 2008)

Most knowledgeable breeders try to limit these faults from happening, but you tend to see certain faults crop up more often in certain breeds

TBs: quite a few have shark-fin withers which make it hard for saddle fitting.

Arabs: Arabs tend to have quite long necks for their bodies, and as a result often get those ewe necks

QHs: downhill build, especially those used in western pleasure. some, the halter horses, also have really, really tiny feet and massive bodies. 

Drafts: can often be cowhocked...but I believe this is considered desireable for drafts that are pulling carts. They can also get a really cresty neckset, which makes it hard for them in the riding disciplines

Warmbloods: these guys can often be base wide...which is why you'll see some warmbloods dishing out with their front or back legs. S


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## Gaited07 (Jul 25, 2008)

LadyDreamer said:


> Gaited07 said:
> 
> 
> > Ladydreamer,
> ...


The Orignial topic was "COMMON FAULTS" this why I replied to your post. Cow hock is not a common fault in the Saddlebred, again, this is a breeding or care fault. 
As for the sway back, I gave example, which in the early 70's WAS a problem with line breeding the Supreme Sultan line (example) 
I know of quite a few breeding stables (ASB) and they do not promote or reproduce weak backs in their show strings. A foal may not show this trait (flaw) for quite a few years or maybe never, but it is still in the gene's and is NOT a desireable by TOP breeders and WOULD NOT be USED as BREEDING STOCK.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

No need to get all up in arms. 

Cow hocks are a common fault. I have seen cowhocks in varying degrees exhibited from many of the "great" breeders and trainers, but the fault is present nonetheless. Like with low backs, certain lines are more prone to this than others. 

I have never seen this type of lordosis appear in horses when it wasn't apparent as a foal. I am a firm believer that the condition of the mare has a great impact on the structural soundess and development of the foal.

If that mare could be eaisily kept and maintained, I would be interested to see how that mare would do again, in full body and health. If she were mine, I wouldn't have ever bred her in the first place, despite her being a proven champion show mare. 

Just breeding Supreme Sultan lines isn't promoting the weak or low back.


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## Gaited07 (Jul 25, 2008)

LadyDreamer said:


> No need to get all up in arms.
> 
> Cow hocks are a common fault. I have seen cowhocks in varying degrees exhibited from many of the "great" breeders and trainers, but the fault is present nonetheless. Like with low backs, certain lines are more prone to this than others.
> 
> ...


No one is "getting up in arms" except you. 
As for my statements, please read the DATES again. A lot of change has incurred thoughout the years and yet again, I gave an example of what was told to me from top breeders/show barns.

As for seeing a "cow hocked horse" in the "A" class show ring would be laughed out of the arena (also in the "B" class shows.) and I still STRONGLY disagree with this as a "COMMON FAULT" Please read my post and visit some Saddlebred show barns (top end and no backyard breeders)

As for the lordorsis (weak,sway or) that you have pictured here would never be used for breeding stock in a highend breeding farm. 
This is what creates "poor conformation" I mean no disrespect but this is poor breeding ethics/practices.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Excuse, me but please do not make assumptions of my status. 

I personally know many of the top end trainers in the industry and am welcome in their barns, as well as am on a first name basis with many executives of the breed Association. My father has been working professionally with Amercian Saddlebred Show Horses for the last fifty years. We own, breed, and show top horses. WE do not promote either common flaws, even with our liking of Supreme Sultan(with all the Sultan out there, there is much good to choose from and a lot of bad. you have to know what you are looking for and what crosses well)

The fault of cow hocks, is very present, and a lot of times from what I have seen has been in the five gaited horses. Not to the degree of THAT picture in my first post. Ignoring, or denying or even not noticing it's presence doesn't mean it is not there. It is the belief of some that it aids in racking. I am not one of those believers. 

The two horses with lordosis that I showed are GELDINGS. I thought I said that. I must look back to see if that was left out. The two mares with lordosis that are on the farm are not owned by us, but are owned by paying customers. All we can do is advise them, but they ultimately make the decisions. And the mares are not as bad as our two old geldings. Severity is often mislabled by personal opinion, but the mares I would call "soft backed". 

The two geldings suffered greatly in the early days of their youth twenty years ago. One lost his mother, the other his sight. Both occurrences played pivotal roles in their devolopment, resulting in the low back you see in my photo. They are fantastic horses, and have done so well in their life, they have earned their place on our farm for the rest of it. I can't imagine where I myself would be without those two horses.


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## Gaited07 (Jul 25, 2008)

LadyDreamer said:


> Excuse, me but please do not make assumptions of my status.


 I did not assume nothing, I merely stated my opinion based on your posts that I've read.


ladydreamer said:


> I personally know many of the top end trainers in the industry and am welcome in their barns, as well as am on a first name basis with many executives of the breed Association. My father has been working professionally with Amercian Saddlebred Show Horses for the last fifty years. We own, breed, and show top horses. WE do not promote either common flaws, even with our liking of Supreme Sultan(with all the Sultan out there, there is much good to choose from and a lot of bad. you have to know what you are looking for and what crosses well)
> 
> The fault of cow hocks, is very present, and a lot of times from what I have seen has been in the five gaited horses. Not to the degree of THAT picture in my first post. Ignoring, or denying or even not noticing it's presence doesn't mean it is not there. It is the belief of some that it aids in racking. I am not one of those believers.


I'm not questioning who you know, I merely stated that you need to visit a show barn to see the quality bred Saddlebred verse the backyard breeder. (in reference to "cow hocked") Also, I've had 3 and 5-gaited Saddlebreds and NONE was COW HOCKED or needed to be for gait (?)


ladydreamer said:


> The two horses with lordosis that I showed are GELDINGS. I thought I said that. I must look back to see if that was left out. The two mares with lordosis that are on the farm are not owned by us, but are owned by paying customers. All we can do is advise them, but they ultimately make the decisions. And the mares are not as bad as our two old geldings. Severity is often mislabled by personal opinion, but the mares I would call "soft backed".


As I stated before, the weak, sway back IS MORE of a flaw in the breed due to breeding the Saddlebred with the SWAN like neck. This is in most breeds such as the walker, arabian, and etc. but I went on to the EXAMPLE of the lines that was considered the cause of the weak back. Again, not all Saddlebreds have this and is MOSTLY breed out (with the top breeders). 


ladydreamer said:


> The two geldings suffered greatly in the early days of their youth twenty years ago. One lost his mother, the other his sight. Both occurrences played pivotal roles in their devolopment, resulting in the low back you see in my photo. They are fantastic horses, and have done so well in their life, they have earned their place on our farm for the rest of it. I can't imagine where I myself would be without those two horses.


Yes care does have an effect on the developement of the horse and so does BREEDING. If I misunderstood about the mares and the breeding status of these pictured horses, then I'm sorry, but I stand with what I said.


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## Gaited07 (Jul 25, 2008)

ladydreamer said:


> We "have" two low backed broodmares on the farm. One is in great health, and takes full advantage of good care. She had a foal last year by one of the last son's of Supreme Sultan, who has a nice, straight back. The other mare is by one of the last son's of Supreme Sultan, and is a miserably hard keeper. If given the same care as the other mare, she would be a rack of bones. Her foal right now has a low back. The question to me is not entirely, "Is that just genetics?" (because that is one major factor), but does the condition/health of the mare affect the foal. We have another mare by that last son of Supreme Sultan who came to us nearly starved to death with an undersized foal at her side. The foal did not have a low back, but looked as if he would be soft in the back. He doesn't have the straightest back in the world, but I think he got here in time to help the issue, before it became worse.
> 
> Present with all breeds, my mare (six year old ASB) is a little pigeon toed, and has the tendency to 'wing'.


Here is your statement about your "LOW BACK BROODMARE'S" along with your question of possible genetics.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Never did I say having cowhocks was needed to gait, I said "some believe" it helps. Obviously, most are not of this belief, nor am I. That is only a matter of personal opinion, currently present in the American Saddlebred of today.

I am in World Class Saddlebred Breeding and Training Facilities every week. You said I should visit one, thus assuming I do not or have not. Just to clear some things up, who exactly are you referring to as a backyard breeder. 

I addressed that low backed broodmare comment. They are owned by paying customers. Not us. As I said before, all we can do is advise, but they make the ultimate decision. 

Genetics play the biggest role, but there are outside factors beyond just the horse's lineage that affect the overall outcome.


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## Gaited07 (Jul 25, 2008)

LadyDreamer said:


> Never did I say having cowhocks was needed to gait, I said "some believe" it helps. Obviously, most are not of this belief, nor am I. That is only a matter of personal opinion, currently present in the American Saddlebred of today.
> 
> I am in World Class Saddlebred Breeding and Training Facilities every week. You said I should visit one, thus assuming I do not or have not. Just to clear some things up, who exactly are you referring to as a backyard breeder.
> 
> Genetics play the biggest role, but there are outside factors beyond just the horse's lineage that affect the overall outcome.


ANY person(s) who PROMOTES and CONTINUES TO BREED HORSES OF POOR CONFORMATION! 
As for your statement about WORLD CLASS STABLES, I guess they breed them different in your community since I've never seen any COW HOCKED SADDLEBREDS being promoted in IL,IN, WI,MO,TN,KY,VA,CA (just to name a few popular areas)

Again, I replied to your post about Saddlebreds having the flaw/trait (or whatever YOU want to call it) on "COW HOCKED" and as I stated numerous times, "This is NOT a common trait/flaw of the Saddlebred..................END OF STORY!


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## AKPaintLover (May 26, 2007)

I am going to request that we move away from personal arguments, as it was not the OPs intention. 

This discussion is about faults we see in the various breeds.

I agree with a previous post, that I have seen a number of TBs that are pretty tender footed...also appendix QH's.

I have seen a lot of overall bad conformation on paints - this I believe is because a lot of people cannot see past cute color.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Now why are you getting so upset? Because, OMG someone disagrees with you? In my opinion, from what I have personally seen in my area, at the shows I attend, and in the barns I visit on a regular basis, that would be the number one flaw I see most often. 

Saddlebreds with cow hocks are very common in my area. (That would be Versailles, Kentucky. I guess there are no important Saddlebred people here or in the surrounding area). 

The vast majority of the Saddlebreds that I see that are cow hocked are not to the degree of the picture I posted (which I just found on the internet. I'm not even sure if that is a Saddlebred) But nonetheless, I see the flaw a lot, thus to me, that is a common flaw. Even just the slightest turning in of the hocks to me is "cow hocked". 

Oh wait, I should have said "All saddlebreds are perfect and have no conformational faults. All have post straight legs you will never ever find a cow hocked one in the group."

Some other common conformational faults that you will see with a Saddlebred are:

Slab sided

Post hocks, often goes with "**** feet" (very steep boxey hind feet)

Calf knees (back at the knee)

Toeing out in front (causes them to interfere at the knee, so highly inconvenient)

Big ugly roman noses. My sister seems to like a horse with a roman nose, for some reason. 

Small, "pig" eyes. 

Ragged top line over the loin and into the croup. Often accentuated by trainers not developing the strength of the top line.

No length or depth of the hip causing a very short coupled hind leg and inability to get up under themselves with their hocks.

Camped out behind and/or overly long and weak hind leg. Often goes with the cow hocks mentioned about.

Narrow Chest (goes with the slab sided ones) or both front legs coming out of the same hole. 

Every horse is individually built and may have none, all, some or different conformational flaws. There is no one perfect horse, save maybe for a little Breyer pony.


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## Gaited07 (Jul 25, 2008)

Here is an excellent site that covers all. Please take the time to check it out. It covers all faults and what breed is most common in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equine_conformation


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

nice site!


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

How about Gayle Lampe, one of the most highly respected and successful horsewomen in the Saddlebred Industry.

This is from a fabulous book and a must read for any Saddleseat Rider or Saddlebred Enthusiast. 

From: "Riding For Success" by Gayle Lampe, published in 1996 by Saddle and Bridle. 

Exerpt from pg 274.



> "When we talk about a saddle seat horse having good motion or action, we are referring to his ability to flex his hocks and knees. The hock should have good depth and should be wide, flat, smooth, clean, and well supported. If the horse stands with his hocks turned outward, he is said to have bandy hocks. This conformation fault gives the horse a defective way of travelling known as limber hocks or rotating hocks. Horses with this fault are difficult to collect and usually suffer lameness in their hocks at a young age. If the hocks point toward each other too much, the horse is said to be cow hocked. However, many horsemen prefer a horse who stands a little cow hocked with his toes pointing slightly outward. Most horses naturally stand a little cow hocked and this is not considered as undesireable as bandy hocks. If this condition is extreme, however, it will put an excessive amount of pressure on the medial(inside) side of the hock and predispose the horse to a bone spavin."


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

I love Gayle!!!


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

kickshaw said:


> I love Gayle!!!


  Isn't she great?! Makes me almost wish I went to William Woods.


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## Gaited07 (Jul 25, 2008)

LadyDreamer said:


> Exerpt from pg 274.
> 
> 
> 
> > "When we talk about a saddle seat horse having good motion or action, we are referring to his ability to flex his hocks and knees. The hock should have good depth and should be wide, flat, smooth, clean, and well supported. If the horse stands with his hocks turned outward, he is said to have bandy hocks. This conformation fault gives the horse a defective way of travelling known as limber hocks or rotating hocks. Horses with this fault are difficult to collect and usually suffer lameness in their hocks at a young age. If the hocks point toward each other too much, the horse is said to be cow hocked. However, many horsemen prefer a horse who stands a little cow hocked with his toes pointing slightly outward. Most horses naturally stand a little cow hocked and this is not considered as undesireable as bandy hocks. If this condition is extreme, however, it will put an excessive amount of pressure on the medial(inside) side of the hock and predispose the horse to a bone spavin."



These are some examples of, not COMMON FAULTS of the breed. 

I NEVER said the Saddlebred was perfect. As with any living thing, they have flaws, nothing is PERFECT! However I still stand with my original comments on the Saddlebred being known to be Cow Hocked.
In your original post you posted a picture of a severly cow hocked horse (assumption was implied Saddlebred) and said, "Saddlebreds are knows to be cow hocked"
With your description and pictures gave a false illusion and severity of the degree(s).


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## DashAwayAll (Jul 19, 2008)

** frowns ... looks puzzled**

I don't considered a short backed horse to have a fault or undesirable trait. I much prefer a short backed horse.


let's also remember, folks, that what is desirable in one breed may be considered the spit of Satan in another. What was the horse originally bred for? I mean, what job has the breed over all to do?

Here's a thought also ... location location location! So many TBs - with that super charged metabolism - are hard keepers. Out on the east coast here, with the lush pasture .... free choice turn out with add some grain ( 5 lbs sweet feed and three lbs cracked corn twice a day for my TB just to maintain her weight) it's not so bad. It would bankrupt me out West.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Gaited07 said:


> LadyDreamer said:
> 
> 
> > Exerpt from pg 274.
> ...


I found that picture on the internet, and do not know if that was a saddlebred. I thought I said that in an earlier post. If you would actually read my posts instead of just automatically assuming I am wrong because I do not agree with you, maybe you would have caught it. 

Considering that "However, many horsemen prefer a horse who stands a little cow hocked with his toes pointing slightly outward. Most horses naturally stand a little cow hocked and this is not considered as undesireable as bandy hocks." that pretty much says to me that it is a common thing. 

That exerpt was from a book, written by a lady who has devoted her life to the breed and the dicpline most connected with the breed. Really, I would need more than Wikipedia to disagree with her. 

If you will notice just a few post back I did say:


> "The vast majority of the Saddlebreds that I see that are cow hocked are not to the degree of the picture I posted (which I just found on the internet. I'm not even sure if that is a Saddlebred)"


Written a different way, "Of the Cow Hocked Saddlebreds that i have seen, most of them are not as severe as the example I posted."

I do apologize that I do not agree with you. I know what I see and stand by what I say. 

And thank you for agreeing with me that all horses are individuals. I believe I said that as well a few posts back.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

DashAwayAll said:


> let's also remember, folks, that what is desirable in one breed may be considered the spit of Satan in another.


OMIGOSH!!! YOU CRACKED ME UP!!!!!




but... i agree with your post....


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## Gaited07 (Jul 25, 2008)

WOW someone really had too much wheaties!

I'am not going to waste my time. I spoke my mind and my opinion and YOU did NOT LIKE IT that someone disagreed with you. You do have to agree that your pictures of the EXAMPLE HORSES is pretty graphic and scary description of this breed.
You have a right to your opinion as I have a right to mine.
Thank you and Have a good day.


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## Gaited07 (Jul 25, 2008)

farmpony84 said:


> DashAwayAll said:
> 
> 
> > let's also remember, folks, that what is desirable in one breed may be considered the spit of Satan in another.
> ...



So do I


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

When you can find me a reliable source detailing Saddlebreds as a whole, describing that the faults we are discussing are NOT in fact commonly seen in many examples of the breed, I might be apt to consider your opinion as valid fact. Denying the existence of something doesn't make it go away. Fact and opinion are two different things. 

Gayle Lampe clearly summarized that the fault is a common one to the breed. That was printed in 1996, times haven't changed all that much. If you are not familiar with Gayle, then it is clear to me that you are not familiar with who is "top" in the breed.


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## Gaited07 (Jul 25, 2008)

LadyDreamer said:


> When you can find me a reliable source detailing Saddlebreds as a whole, describing that the faults we are discussing are NOT in fact commonly seen in many examples of the breed, I might be apt to consider your opinion as valid fact. Denying the existence of something doesn't make it go away. Fact and opinion are two different things.
> 
> Gayle Lampe clearly summarized that the fault is a common one to the breed. That was printed in 1996, times haven't changed all that much. If you are not familiar with Gayle, then it is clear to me that you are not familiar with who is "top" in the breed.


Oh my, aren't we just a splash of sunshine :? 

I understand who Gayle is and Michele MacFarlane, Richard and Jenett Durant, Dawn Atlas, Carolyn Folkers, and a bunch more. You don't have to be rude or NASTY. 
Every horse displays flaws to LOOK FOR, doesn't mean that they are prone for it. 
As for fact and opinion, I posted facts, the same way you did. As with everything else, everyone is going to have a different perspective.
As for anything clear to your, I don't feel that you know the difference since you are so closed minded.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Closed minded would be refusing to believe the existence of a prevalent conformational fault, when there is much evidence to prove otherwise. 

Just because it is looked for or some people desire it, doesn't make it any less a fault. It IS in fact a common flaw/fault. 

I work daily with the breed, I visit different barns, and different trainers every week, all throughout my "saddlebred poor" area. I was raised in the industry and am currently working within it, and if god permits, will continue to do so throughout the course of my life. I do know what I see, and through my own experience, claim something that others of much higher status than I also claim.


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## Gaited07 (Jul 25, 2008)

You just don't get it do you! 

I understand that the Saddlebred breed and all other breeds out there have faults/flaws however, I don't recall seeing that many as you say cow hocked saddlebreds. I would say 1 out of 50 maybe a little cow hocked.
I'm not questioning your training, background or whatever. However, I'm stating that I do not agree with the above statements of cow hocked.
I've also trained with some of the top trainers/handlers of the Saddlebred world. I also worked as an assitant trainer with a Saddlebred barn, WE OWNED our OWN Saddlebred stable. But this is not a Pis-ing match. 
I don't believe that you will ever find a conformational PERFECT horse (any breed) out there. There is nothing perfect but in this case, they are not common.


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## ca asb (Apr 1, 2009)

Gaited07, 

Don't know where you've been, but out here in California and in Arizona, you see cow hocks on ASBs fairly regularly. More often in the gaited horses, and I've had many top trainers tell me that they gait easier if they are a little "cowy" in the rear. So, not necessarily a fault as it allows them to gait more easily.

And Sultan lines weren't the only ones prone to low backs. Chief of Greystone (by Wing Commander) was low, so the Attache line can throw some low backs. The Vanity lines can be low and the spotted lines tracing to Fountain of Youth (another Wing Commander son) can be low (FY was low himself). And, while it may not be actively being bred for, it certainly allows that front end that is so popular right now. Two years ago, they put up New York Entertainer (Valley View Supreme - which is really where the Supreme Sultan low back lines come from) with a definite low back, and there's been much discussion of Callaway's Copyright (Sultan lines) - 6 time WGC Fine Harness horse and his "soft" back. Fortunately, both of those horses are geldings and are not being bred on (as was the case with Memories Citation - also low and a WGC in both 3 and 5 gaited in the early 90's).


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## close2prfct (Mar 9, 2009)

DashAwayAll said:


> ** frowns ... looks puzzled**
> 
> I don't considered a short backed horse to have a fault or undesirable trait. I much prefer a short backed horse.
> 
> ...



I couldn't have said it better myself!! 
Seriously you cannot gauge a QH conformation by that of an Arabian or heaven forbid a mini( which imo look like little aliens but hey they are cute!) It's like saying a St Bernard should have the conformation of a chihuahua. What is sought after in one breed is looked down upon in another.


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## close2prfct (Mar 9, 2009)

I found this article this morning maybe it will help maybe it won't but thought it was worth posting since there is such an uproar about conformation
http://www.mountainislandfarm.com/article.htm


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