# Does cross breeding lower the value of the stud?



## advelanch (Aug 25, 2012)

My Grampa wants to breed his Shetland pony to my mini horse My dad (witch is not a horse person) says it will lower my horses value. Is this true? My horse is the great grandson of Boones Little Buckeroo







And the grand son of little kings black velvet


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

the shetland is a mare ? the foal would have the decreased value by not being registered. Your stallions value would not change. that is, unless the mare hurt him while he was trying to breed her..


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

No it would not lowere the value of your stallion.
it might give you an idea about the type of foals he would produce.
Isn't there a mini horse registry that does allow this cross and the foal would be able to register it. Just curious. Shalom


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## MyLittlePonies (Mar 15, 2011)

It doesn't decrease his value, just the foal by not being registered.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

The question is, why do you and grandpa, want to breed? There are thousands of Minis around right now and needing homes. Many with excellent show records are being given away. 

Boons Little Buckeroo that far in the background, means little. Thousands of Minis have him in their background. We have one. He is gelded and did have a respectable show career. 

What has your stallion done? How has he produced in the past? What is grandpa's mare like? Is she top quality and likely to produce a foal which would be marketable? Are both registered? With which registries? Has either produced a dwarf in the past?

If you know your pedigrees, you will know that most Minis also have Shetlands in their background. If your stallion is very well known and of top quality, I'd personally stick to breeding only Minis. According to the height of the Shetland, the foal could quite well go over the size limits. However, many do cross Minis and Shetlands.

Lizzie


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## advelanch (Aug 25, 2012)

MY horse has not shown or made a public pony but he is my boy his name is jester. My grampa has a decent mare. she is not the best though


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## advelanch (Aug 25, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> No it would not lowere the value of your stallion.
> it might give you an idea about the type of foals he would produce.
> Isn't there a mini horse registry that does allow this cross and the foal would be able to register it. Just curious. Shalom


I don't know mabie


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

The only registry that I can think of off the top of my head that doesn't allow crossbreeding whatsoever is for Friesians. If the stallion or mare is found to have crossbred, they're kicked out of the registry.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

Honestly, I wouldn't breed like this. What would be the purpose other then "a baby would be cute?" I only say this as the risk to both the mare and the stud. Stud could get kicked and hurt during breeding. Mare could die during birth etc... There are so many ponies out there already. If Grandpa wants another pony, he could get one of them. If it is just for the experience, does the benefit outweigh the risk? What will happen to the baby? 35 years from now, where would the baby be? All things to think about.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

JustDressageIt said:


> The only registry that I can think of off the top of my head that doesn't allow crossbreeding whatsoever is for Friesians. If the stallion or mare is found to have crossbred, they're kicked out of the registry.


Most of your breed registries DO NOT allow crossbreds whatsoever....Arabs, ASB's, Morgans, AQHA, JC to name a few.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

My personal opinion, if you really want another pony, check out your local rescue. Shetlands, Minis, and shetland mini crosses are flooding the local rescues. There are SO many, of quality breeding too! Just look around. Your horses sound lovely, but not the type to produce foals above the value of those sitting in rescues. You could make a serious difference in a wonderful young pony's life, rather than creating a new one that could potentially not be one you'd enjoy.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Are you saying that Friesians take a horses registry away if it is used for anything other than breeding pure Friesians?
That doesn't make sense and they do have a friesian sport horse registry.
Shalom


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Yes. To preserve the purity of the breed. It's something I very much respect for such a unique breed that generally doesn't out-cross well...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

Why breed? Go to a rescue and pick one up. I picked up a mini/Shetland gelding two weeks ago who is the best little pony.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Your mini sounds like he has some nice bloodlines. I don't see anything wrong at all with breeding him.

But, I have to ask those of you who feel that this person should not breed and should go get a pony/mini from a rescue instead.... I see there are a lot of other threads on this forum where people breed their horses, and they don't get shot down for breeding. I don't quite understand why it is OK for others to breed, but not in this case?


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## advelanch (Aug 25, 2012)

the point of of was that I'm putting my horse up for stud, we want to make sure he can get the mare pegnet and also get experiance. ( he has never bred before) and also my grampa says they will not sell the foal they will use is as company for the other 2 horses ha has and also use it as a ridding pony for my little conses she is only a baby but by the time the foal is ride able she will be old enough to ride


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## advelanch (Aug 25, 2012)

Remali said:


> Your mini sounds like he has some nice bloodlines. I don't see anything wrong at all with breeding him.
> 
> But, I have to ask those of you who feel that this person should not breed and should go get a pony/mini from a rescue instead.... I see there are a lot of other threads on this forum where people breed their horses, and they don't get shot down for breeding. I don't quite understand why it is OK for others to breed, but not in this case?


thanks I noticed it to


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Grandpa mini and great great grandpa mini are cute.

Can we see a pic of YOUR stud?


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Yes JDI is right. 

There are many breed registries who will revoke a stallion's registration with that breed if they are found to be crossbreeding. The PRE ANCEE is another registry that will remove any stallions found to be cross breeding.

So yes, cross breeding a stallion in many cases will reduce it's value. It is for this reason that many high level stallions are available for breeding to approved mares only and you must sign a contract saying that you will destroy any semen not use to breed said mare. If you keep it and breed another mare you can have a serious lawsuit on your hands.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

The Friesian breed registry is the only breed that comes to mind right now. However, they do cross-breed Freisians anyway, without any issues. It depends on what registry you are dealing with.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Remali said:


> Your mini sounds like he has some nice bloodlines. I don't see anything wrong at all with breeding him.
> 
> But, I have to ask those of you who feel that this person should not breed and should go get a pony/mini from a rescue instead.... I see there are a lot of other threads on this forum where people breed their horses, and they don't get shot down for breeding. I don't quite understand why it is OK for others to breed, but not in this case?


If you would also look into other breeding threads you will see that a majority of the "Should I breed?" threads have the same meaning.. If your mare/stallion isn't proven/good conformation/good bloodlines you shouldn't breed..If you are a backyard breeder who just wants to breed for a cute wittle foal, you do not need to breed.. Breeding is VERY touchy, you should know exactly what you're looking at when considering breeding..There are a few examples of horses/members who wouldn't really have a problem breeding without the good bloodlines and such...There are too many prospects/rescues/good horses out there that need homes for someone to just breed on a whim because they want a cute foal. That is no excuse for breeding.

OP, if your grandpa is wanting another pony I'm also another vote for going to a rescue or in search of another pony. Breeding isn't always the answer.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It would make more sense to find someone with a same breed mare that would allow you to produce a foal from her - you would need a proper arrangement and some cover for the mare if anything went wrong and she died - if you wanted to keep the foal yourself or as its a nice stallion they would likely be interested at a reduced fee covering
Breeding a cross bred pony of this type seems a bit pointless as others have said you can get them for free right now


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Do you have permission to post professional pictures from someone else's website?

Those horses you posted don't belong to you, and the only way to determine whether or not your horse is fit for breeding is by what HE'S done, not what his grandsires have done. 

Will breeding to a crap mare lower a stallion's value? It might, because a breeding stallion will be judged on the quality of his progeny. Which is why anyone serious about breeding quality stock WON'T breed to just anything with a uterus.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

I constantly hear about people who own Buckeroo descendants, offering them at stud. Fact is, while he was a wonderful little horse, he has literally thousands of descendants and not all are particularly good. We have one ourselves, who is gelded. 

Maybe if the OP would post a pic of her own stallion, the membership could give her some thoughts as to whether or not he is stallion quality. And standing a Mini at stud, almost always costs more than one can ask for the stud fee. Most Mini breeders own their own stallions. Few offer outside breeding or AI. If the OP's stallion has not proven himself in the ring or with some exceptional foals on the ground, the only mare owners she is likely to get, are those with iffy mares and wanting to breed for the wrong reasons. And lets face it, there are waaaay too many Minis being bred irresponsibly now. 

Lizzie


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Personally, for me as a potential mare owner, a stallion that accepts mares of different breeds is less desirable to me. I want to know that the stallion owner picks the mares that he is put over, rather than accept all comers. This makes the offspring worth more in the long run - fewer foals that are well bred is always better advertisement than many foals of mediocre breeding.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

DrumRunner said:


> If you would also look into other breeding threads you will see that a majority of the "Should I breed?" threads have the same meaning.. If your mare/stallion isn't proven/good conformation/good bloodlines you shouldn't breed..If you are a backyard breeder who just wants to breed for a cute wittle foal, you do not need to breed.. Breeding is VERY touchy, you should know exactly what you're looking at when considering breeding..There are a few examples of horses/members who wouldn't really have a problem breeding without the good bloodlines and such...There are too many prospects/rescues/good horses out there that need homes for someone to just breed on a whim because they want a cute foal. That is no excuse for breeding.
> 
> OP, if your grandpa is wanting another pony I'm also another vote for going to a rescue or in search of another pony. Breeding isn't always the answer.


If someone is wanting to breed a pony or horse to KEEP FOR THEMSELVES and not re-sell, who cares? Seriously, really? Who are we to judge here? It is different if you are breeding to re-sell, but I see nothing wrong with breeding if you plan to keep the resulting foal for yourself.

And someone mentioned a "crap mare"... wow. Seriously, some people...


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

There's a hole in your logic..There is NO, absolutely no way of knowing that she or her family can give this foal a forever home. Things happen, life changes..There's no guarantee you won't die tomorrow..The what becomes of the foal? Who knows? Will it go to a good home or go to the slaughter house? Why breed and chance that? There are enough horses and ponies that no one wants right now..don't bring more into the industry...The foal will have a better chance at a good life if it's actually worth something and not a backyard cute wittle baby..Breeding for that is just selfish..It's a LIFE you're planning on bringing into the industry, at least give it a fighting chance because you aren't guaranteed to be there for it forever.

It's a known fact that registered horses are still the majority of what people want. Most horse owners will take a registered horse with good bloodlines over a grade horse with no knowledge of it's back ground.. Breeding grades and back yard breeders are breeding for the slaughter houses...That's not an opinion, that's a fact.

And yes..there are CRAP horses out there..results from irresponsible actions and backyard incidents.


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## advelanch (Aug 25, 2012)

the pony lives at my grampas friends house, they share the mare, he is rich, so chances are that he wont lose his house he keeps his horses for his doughter she loves them. I hear she has a desent bloodline but I have not seen her pappers yet, which I would like to do before breeding. I will try to show him to you guys I will see if my computer will let me. he is a palomino that looks almost like a cream, this picture is about a month or two old. he is almost 10 hands. but he is a class b pony and is registered.


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## advelanch (Aug 25, 2012)

the first picture is of my horse jester at 4 or 5 months, the 2nd is Jesters sire Velvet who had won a few blue ribbons but they were not in major shows,the 3rd is of Jesters Dam who has a good bloodline


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

DrumRunner said:


> There's a hole in your logic..There is NO, absolutely no way of knowing that she or her family can give this foal a forever home. Things happen, life changes..There's no guarantee you won't die tomorrow..The what becomes of the foal? Who knows? Will it go to a good home or go to the slaughter house? Why breed and chance that? There are enough horses and ponies that no one wants right now..don't bring more into the industry...The foal will have a better chance at a good life if it's actually worth something and not a backyard cute wittle baby..Breeding for that is just selfish..It's a LIFE you're planning on bringing into the industry, at least give it a fighting chance because you aren't guaranteed to be there for it forever.
> 
> It's a known fact that registered horses are still the majority of what people want. Most horse owners will take a registered horse with good bloodlines over a grade horse with no knowledge of it's back ground.. Breeding grades and back yard breeders are breeding for the slaughter houses...That's not an opinion, that's a fact.
> 
> And yes..there are CRAP horses out there..results from irresponsible actions and backyard incidents.


There are many, many big name barns who also have had to "dump" or get rid of horses, because of over-breeding or due to the owner(s) being unable to care for them. So where do we draw the line?


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Remali said:


> There are many, many big name barns who also have had to "dump" or get rid of horses, because of over-breeding or due to the owner(s) being unable to care for them. So where do we draw the line?


 
The line is drawn at what is more marketable...even for horses that are being "dumped". A well bred and papered horse has instant market value, over a no-name backyard crossbred anyday. Not being snarky...just stating facts. 

The whole reasoning to breed...being...."I'll keep it forever", simply does not hold true any more in this economy. Whether you are going to keep the foal forever or breed to sell it....there is absolutely NO WAY two mediocre horses should ever be bred. Two good-to-exceptional horses are the ONLY ones that should be bred. Why do I say that? Well it's commonsense and ONLY makes sense, and why should a poorly conformed foal be brought into this world...just at the owners whim? Come on...think about the resulting foal instead of what we want. It's not about us...it's about the horse.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

GotaDunQH said:


> The line is drawn at what is more marketable...even for horses that are being "dumped". A well bred and papered horse has instant market value, over a no-name backyard crossbred anyday. Not being snarky...just stating facts.
> 
> The whole reasoning to breed...being...."I'll keep it forever", simply does not hold true any more in this economy. Whether you are going to keep the foal forever or breed to sell it....there is absolutely NO WAY two mediocre horses should ever be bred. Two good-to-exceptional horses are the ONLY ones that should be bred. Why do I say that? Well it's commonsense and ONLY makes sense, and why should a poorly conformed foal be brought into this world...just at the owners whim? Come on...think about the resulting foal instead of what we want. It's not about us...it's about the horse.


Absolutely.

Think of it this way. Would you purchase a car, of two different cars which had been soldered together, was not able to be licensed/registered and had no resale value? It's the same with horses or any other animal, people breed and produce. The only difference is, that the car will eventually end up on a dump and the poor animals, possibly face a lifetime of misery and end up being sent to Mexico and killed in _the_ worst of ways.

Lizzie


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

We are not discussing automobiles we are discussing horses. Most people that own them do not show. with over 7 million horses in the US only a small percentage ever see an arena. Most owners want something that is safe to ride, easy to care for, affordable, and sane. There is nothing wrong with a horse not entering an arena wearing lots of silver and its owners not spending thousands of dollars for lessons and advanced training. Most horses are bought simply for the purpose of enjoying them. As a hobby not a lifestyle.
Most horses will never face the threat of being transported across the country to be slaughtered. having papers or not does not count in the killer pens. Only about 250, to 300,000 horse are ever slaughtered every year those numbers have been consistent even when slaughter occurred here in the US.
there is a market for any horse that is trained and functional. they do have value. Shalom


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> We are not discussing automobiles we are discussing horses. Most people that own them do not show. with over 7 million horses in the US only a small percentage ever see an arena. Most owners want something that is safe to ride, easy to care for, affordable, and sane. There is nothing wrong with a horse not entering an arena wearing lots of silver and its owners not spending thousands of dollars for lessons and advanced training. Most horses are bought simply for the purpose of enjoying them. not *As a hobby a lifestyle*.
> Most horses will never face the threat of being transported across the country to be slaughtered. having papers or not does not count in the killer pens. Only about 250, to 300,000 horse are ever slaughtered every year those numbers have been consistent even when slaughter occurred here in the US.
> there is a market for any horse that is trained and functional. they do have value. Shalom


IMO....hobby and lifestyle go hand-in-hand.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

GotadunQH I see your point. by the way I meant to type "as a hobby NOT a lifestyle".
My horses are not my job if I do not make a single dime off them but manage to break even I am happy.
I bought a young colt about 10 years ago that was extremely well bred.
I sent him to training for halter and english pleasure. He was shown and did very well. I sold him for more mney than I have paid for a couple of the properties I own and he was exported. I LOST money on that investment and never go one colt or advertised him. that would have added a lot more and I would have had to continue his show career something I was not willing to do. Shalom


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

GotaDunQH said:


> The line is drawn at what is more marketable...even for horses that are being "dumped". A well bred and papered horse has instant market value, over a no-name backyard crossbred anyday. Not being snarky...just stating facts.


No, that is absolutely NOT a fact.

A "well bred and papered" horse has value if it is true to its breeding, has ability, and is well trained. Otherwise it is of no more value than an untrained grade. Breeding and papers are valuable to select breeding stock - they mean absolutely nothing when the foal is on the ground...the foal is what it is. If that foal does not have ability or is not trained or is not marketed properly, it has no particular value other than just being a horse.

The value of a horse - papered or not - is based upon what it can do - not what its sire or grandsire or great grandsire did.

Do you know what the market actually is? As db intimated, the vast majority of horses never see an arena, and are pleasure horses or pasture pets. If I had to guess I would guess fewer than 5% of horses ever set foot in an arena - other than maybe local playdays or 4H. One must ask oneself is it better to breed into 95% of the market or 5%?

Don't get me wrong - I was a breeder for many years and advocate responsible breeding, but most people have some wild notion that only superior horses should be bred. You do realize that, if taken to the extreme, that means only the top 10 horses in each breed should be bred.

The bottom lne is, as you said, horses should be bred into the market. But the reality is that show and competitive horses are only a fraction of the market...


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

By outbreeding your stallion you will not devalue him.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

If the colt is a cross and is unable to be registered as a Half like in the Arabian registry how will the breed association know?
My stallion only has a few registered offspring because most did not register the colts and a couple violated the breeding contract. His owner att he time refused to sign the certificate. therefore over half his offspring do not exist according to the AHA.
If they were registered and shown then they would increase his value.
Simply breeding a mare or two will not affect his potential value. Shalom


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Faceman said:


> No, that is absolutely NOT a fact.
> 
> A "well bred and papered" horse has value if it is true to its breeding, has ability, and is well trained. Otherwise it is of no more value than an untrained grade. Breeding and papers are valuable to select breeding stock - they mean absolutely nothing when the foal is on the ground...the foal is what it is. If that foal does not have ability or is not trained or is not marketed properly, it has no particular value other than just being a horse.
> 
> ...


And you are entitled to your opinion, and yes I know what the market actually is.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

I'm confused who all the pictures are of? do you have any current pictures of the horses in question? (stud and mare you're planning to breed)


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I just cant see the point in crossing two small breeds like these - as purebreds they have some value by virtue of their pedigrees - which they both have. If the owners want to keep the offspring then its up to them but why not breed to produce a purebred animal that could be shown if they wanted too? 
The UK's top showing horses that have the highest value - hunters, hacks, riding horses, cobs, show and working ponies are all cross breeds - bred for type. They are produced from good stallions and mares and that will make the foals more valuable - same goes for many top showjumping, eventing and dressage horses - not always a breed but mostly have good proven parentage and bred for a purpose.
I'm struggling to see the purpose in this cross to just produce a pasture pet - for the sake of it


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I guess the answer is, it won't reduce the value of the stallion. But it produces a foal with a lower value. If value doesn't matter go for it. But rescuing or adopting another one might be nicer when looking at the massive overpopulation of tiny unregistered horses. Either way, it would be the foal with the reduced value, not the stallion.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

advelanch said:


> the first picture is of my horse jester at 4 or 5 months, the 2nd is Jesters sire Velvet who had won a few blue ribbons but they were not in major shows,the 3rd is of Jesters Dam who has a good bloodline


He's really cute! Do you have current pictures of him?


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## advelanch (Aug 25, 2012)

In the post before it there is a pic of a 2 year old mini that seems big he has his head down he is the palomino with the sun reflecting off his coat
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

A "backyard" breeder certainly can, and very many actually do, produce good quality horses. It's absurd to assume that only "big name breeders" can produce a quality horse. I know of a few people who have gone on to win National Championships with their backyard-bred horses. And just because someone does not opt to show their horses does not decrease the value, or the fact that they have a quality horse.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I think it depends on the market you are looking to market the stud in. If you are looking to breed to none breed people then crossing is not a bad thing. If you are looking for a specific breed then its bad. If you are trying to establish your stallion as a specific type of stud then don't breed to a different breed. I know someone who breeds well known show miniatures. They have some really good lines and they would never consider outcrossing to another breed. That would devalue their horses and if word got out in the show world it would be bad for their reputation. They would also regard it as bad for the breed. If they were not showing and you just want to be the person that breeds horses then it might not be bad. It will cause people to regard you differently and you will face some who disagree with that decision and will brand you a back yard breeder. 

I don't think you can say fairly that you will keep the foal forever. Its more likely with just one foal but you start to breed multiple foals its complex. I say this as someone who in the last two weeks has had a last foal brood mare move back and took in a pregnant mare who's co-owner disappeared off the planet. The only reason the mare was bred was because the co-owner wanted to breed the mare and was going to take on foal care (and the mare is crazy well bred). You can't count on people in the horse world to be the same today as they were yesterday. This is very well bred mare that is in foal but its still another mouth to feed. 

I would also say that breeding and foaling mini's is risky. They are pasture bred which means their is increased risk to the stallion as far as mares kicking the stud. There is also a lot of problems with delivery in miniatures. Then there is foal care and training. The miniature market is not what it was 15 years ago where they were considered a great pasture pet and companion. The market is somewhat saturated with miniatures.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Remali said:


> A "backyard" breeder certainly can, and very many actually do, produce good quality horses. It's absurd to assume that only "big name breeders" can produce a quality horse. I know of a few people who have gone on to win National Championships with their backyard-bred horses. And just because someone does not opt to show their horses does not decrease the value, or the fact that they have a quality horse.


A backyard breeder is not a small time breeder who breeds for quality, and makes good judgement based decisions on what crosses to make, and then shows the resultant offspring. They are just a small breeder - one that may only produce one or two foals a year.

A backyard breeder is one who breeds indiscriminately for the sake of it. They don't consider what the cross will turn out like - they only want a "kute babeh" or a "piece of my mare", or to "see what we get".


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Remali said:


> The Friesian breed registry is the only breed that comes to mind right now. However, they do cross-breed Freisians anyway, without any issues. It depends on what registry you are dealing with.


Actually, the Norweigan Fjord Horse Registry also.follows this rule, as well as banning any breeding stock that is used for inbreeding (mother/son, father/daughter, half sister/half brother).


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> A backyard breeder is not a small time breeder who breeds for quality, and makes good judgement based decisions on what crosses to make, and then shows the resultant offspring. They are just a small breeder - one that may only produce one or two foals a year.
> 
> A backyard breeder is one who breeds indiscriminately for the sake of it. They don't consider what the cross will turn out like - they only want a "kute babeh" or a "piece of my mare", or to "see what we get".


 Totally right
We only bred 2 foals a year and put a lot of thought into what stallions we used so we were breeding for good quality saleable horses. Our facility might not have been as swish looking as one of the expensive top stud yards in the UK but having just a couple to deal with I think meant they got a lot more regular individual attention and made good prices and sold direct to good homes. I had one filly that was so nice that we regularly had people driving by stop and offer money for her


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Chiilaa said:


> A backyard breeder is not a small time breeder who breeds for quality, and makes good judgement based decisions on what crosses to make, and then shows the resultant offspring. They are just a small breeder - one that may only produce one or two foals a year.
> 
> A backyard breeder is one who breeds indiscriminately for the sake of it. They don't consider what the cross will turn out like - they only want a "kute babeh" or a "piece of my mare", or to "see what we get".


Seriously? I know of a few "backyard breeders" who bred and raised national Champions. It's sort of insulting to say that a person can't breed for quality if they are not a big name breeder. There are many people who have bred raised a high quality horse, who would be considered backyard breeders. And I know a couple people who did that, bred and raised a quality horse and went on to win at Nationals. Also, anyone remember the Champion Arabian stallion Khemosabi, he came from a backyard breeder. My friends would also fall under the category backyard breeders, they have went on to win at Nationals. People who breed one or two foals can, and do, breed for quality.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

I think there are BYBs and BYBs. Most of us do (I think) consider a BYB, as one who has a couple of horses or dogs of iffy quality and background, breeds them because they are handy, or breeds 'just because'. Some breed and produce offspring, because they cannot be bothered to separate a colt from its dam or bother to geld the colts or neuter/spay, the dogs they have. 

Certainly, many who could be classed as BYBs, because they have a very small place etc., do know about breeding and producing, only quality animals. However, personally I consider them 'small breeders' rather than BYBs.

Lizzie


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Remali said:


> Seriously? I know of a few "backyard breeders" who bred and raised national Champions. It's sort of insulting to say that a person can't breed for quality if they are not a big name breeder. There are many people who have bred raised a high quality horse, who would be considered backyard breeders. And I know a couple people who did that, bred and raised a quality horse and went on to win at Nationals. Also, anyone remember the Champion Arabian stallion Khemosabi, he came from a backyard breeder. My friends would also fall under the category backyard breeders, they have went on to win at Nationals. People who breed one or two foals can, and do, breed for quality.



I think what Chilla is saying is that there is Backyard Breeders, Small Time Breeders, and Big Name Breeders.

We all know the BigTime Breeders.

Khemosabi was bred by an orginally Small Time Breeder - a few foals who were bred to horses that were expected to produce champions - Like Khemosabi. They don't mass produce foals and a multi-billion ar set up. They breed a few foals a year by choosi.g mates that compliment each other conformationally and personaility wise to get best results. 

Backyard Breeders will take a sickle hocked, toed in, long neck grade (or even just your average joe blow bred horse) and breed it to their short necked, weak hocked, big headed mare because the two have breeding parts so thus should be used, and who doesnt want a cute baby?! They breed for the sake of breeding without putting any thought into what they could produce. 

BIG difference between a Backyard Breeder and a Smalltime Breeder.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Exactly as WSA said, I would not consider a small breeder who thought carefully about their breeding program and bred for quality foals to be a "backyard breeder". I think a BYB is someone who is breeding for the sake of it, with no thought at all. It doesn't matter if you have 1 horse or 100 - if you don't put thought into it, you are a BYB. By the same token, it doesn't matter if you have 1 horse or 100 - if you make careful matches and produce quality foals, you are a breeder and not a BYB.


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## advelanch (Aug 25, 2012)

I am going to breed him, all I wanted to know is if it would lower his value. i don't care what you guys say. every one is telling me i will mess up the whole breeding system. every one id telling me to about. but to all of those people, Will that adopted horse be the foal of my horse? i don't think so. Will they be a horse that I could say I bred and I delivered them or i can register in my name? once again I dont think so. he is going to bred them in the spring so yeah nothing you guys can do. And the people who say that she is a ''crap mare'' well if you met her you would take that back. she is beautiful and super nice.


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## advelanch (Aug 25, 2012)

report me if you want but you guys have been saying some mean stuff and i have been trying my best to clam myself but I have had enough! this place is to say it kindly and not tell me all this bad stuff about ruining the system. how is one little foal going to hurt it? i mean really.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Talking about backyard breeders, etc, was a general statement. I dont think anyone singled you out as a backyard breeder (sort of a spin off the conversation which happens), nor did anyone claim they were going to report you. 
Nobody was mean or rude, really, just stating facts of the horse industry. If you're going to breed you're going to breed. No one is going to change that. Pee merely said what the market would be like for your potential foal, and other ways of getting a foal instead of breeding. The end choice is yours. 
You asked for opinions, they were given. Don't get so uptight.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

I think this more spun off into an off topic debate so no one was really targeting you, OP. 

Personally we can't change your minds but please be sure you can provide this baby with a good home for its lifetime. It doesn't Diserve to be sent to an auction or left starved and abandoned..or sold into wrong hands
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

I don't think we need to tell anyone to not send their foals/horses to an auction, I don't think ANYONE on here wants to do that or plans to do that, or starve or abandon their horses. Do you guys say that to the other people on this forum who breed too? Give the OP a break, she is excited to breed her horses, and we should be happy for her. She isn't flooding the market (like so many big breeders do, and yes those horses from big name breeders do end up in bad situations and at auction, remember the recent Arabians that were seized, in horrid condition, from a very well-known breeder, that is not the first time that has occured). Why do you think this OP can't care for the foal, and then on other threads about other people breeding not tell them the same thing? Don't some of you breed?


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

I never get involved in breeding posts besides when people become negligent. Good for her if she wants to breed her horse..but what happens if she falls on hard times and HAS to send them to an auction or give them away...then what.?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Cowgirls Boots said:


> I never get involved in breeding posts besides when people become negligent. Good for her if she wants to breed her horse..but what happens if she falls on hard times and HAS to send them to an auction or give them away...then what.?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


she'll blame everything but her decision to breed. it was the economy, rich grandpa passed away and left me nothing, a deer farted sideways in the woods! *you get where I'm going*


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

OP no one has attacked you tha i can see. they have given you advice and they have stated why they would not. they have also given examples to consider.
It is your horse you can do as you see with them. but to ask the uestion does it lower his value reeks of a lack of knowledge. That is not a bad thing. glad that you asked. we all have learned things by asking please continue to do so. However if you receive advice taking it personal will do you no good. Shalom


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

The OP asked some questions in her first post, which were answered. She also admitted, that her grandfather's mare is not the best. So breeding an unknown, untried, unshown stallion, to a mare who is not the best, would probably not produce a foal of the best sort. Grandfather is obviously not young. Who takes on his horses when he passes on? The OP sounds young and not really knowledgeable about horses or breeding, or she wouldn't have asked the questions here. So with that in mind, I think many here, gave her lots of very good and important information, which to consider.

As with many before her, she really doesn't want us to tell her that she shouldn't breed to this mare. Regardless of the information given, she obviously intended to breed and is going to do so. One wonders sometimes, why we waste our time.

Lizzie


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

The same question then applies to all of us here... what happens should **we** fall on hard times?


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

Remali said:


> The same question then applies to all of us here... what happens should **we** fall on hard times?


But most of us aren't breeding useless animals. Most of us (including myself) have rescued those mistake grade horses from auctions or being starved, etc. 

My three are all rescued. All grade...because someone probably just wanted that cute widdle baby horse!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

We've had the Me Generation and now I think we have the Hair Shirt Generation. What if you can't keep it for life, what if it goes to auction, what if what if what if, all laden with guilt and angst. 

What if they go to auction? So what? They're property folks, not children. No, no one wants to send a horse to auction but it happens. It's legitimate and it's legal. No one here has the right to lay a big guilt trip on anyone else. 

This is obviously a kid posting, her dad is against the breeding idea. Dad may speak with grampa and put the Kibosh on the whole breeding thing. That may be the end of the whole discussion so why give a kid all this drama? 

Would I do this breeding? Probably not, but neither of these are my horses, so it's really not my place to say what she should do. 

I'm tired of people telling me to breed/don't breed. It's nobody's business but mine. I have mares and I have a stallion. Will I breed in the spring, probably. Will I sell the resulting foals? In a heartbeat. Will they get shown or proven? If the new owner wants to. Otherwise, unless there's one who blows my mind, no, I'll just keep on showing my stallion and mares. I may take a couple to local shows to get them seen, but not likely going to take them to the world. I'm breeding for athletic, calm, sensible, beginner friendly, pretty, correct horses that anyone can ride or handle. If they are also stupendous enough to show and win, yeee hah! Will they all be registered? YES Will they all be tested for genetic issues if necessary? YES and disclosed.

And for those who get their horses from rescues, more power to ya, I'm sure you're saving up good Karma. I have less than NO desire for those kinds of horses. Actually, rarely do I even bring in a horse if I haven't bred it myself. I don't like how most folks start their horses, so I have done it myself now for YEARS. From day 1.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Just because you breed a horse from your own mare doesn't mean thats its going to be 'that special one'
The people who thought breeding a foal from my old mares mother was a cute idea made such a bad job of raising her she was on her way to be shot when our vet stepped in
We bred foals ourself - all lovely quality and so did the man I worked for for many years and of all of them I can honestly say that only a couple gave me that "I want to keep you forever feeling' - it wasn't because they weren't all lovely. 
You can go to a sale or to a dealer or anywhere else and you suddenly see a horse that somehow tells you its the one for you.
You dont need to breed one to get that feeling.
There are so many really nice unwanted horses right now that I would rather give one of them a good home.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Well first of all Remali, I think we should all breed carefully and sparingly. I'm not one little bit, in favour of breeding one stallion to a whole herd of mares and hoping for a few top quality. 

In my opinion, 'carefully', means to put the correct stallion to the correct mare. Breeding those who are of excellent conformation and would have something to add to the breed. Whether outcrossing, linebreeding or inbreeding, to have enough knowledge of the horses in the pedigree, to be able to judge what one might expect for the breeding.

By 'sparingly', I mean to know the market for the offspring. Know that if I plan to sell, the foal I produce, is likely to find a good home. To know that I won't end up having to give it away, because it is not of a type which horse buyers want. To know that it would likely be a foal I'd be happy to keep for myself, whether for sale or not. 

Since the early '70's, our family has only produced about 7 foals, yet we have owned, shown and paraded, many horses of breeding quality. At the moment, we have two older mares, who have yet to produce, although they are both of excellent quality. We do not currently own a stallion, but have been offered free breedings to top quality studs, because those owners like the mares. Not easy to turn down free breedings and especially to those who have been offered, but in this economy, we have. Who knows, if the economy improves at some point, we might breed again, but I tend to think not.

Any idiot can put together, two animals with working reproductive parts, but there is so much more to it. One must consider well, the horses involved, the market, whether or not we could possibly keep that foal for its entire life if necessary and what happens to our horses, should we fall upon difficult times. Knowledgeable horse people, saw early on, the state of the equine economy. We had ten horses a few years ago. We found most good homes and are now down to only three. Two Minis and one Gypsy. It is our responsibility as breeders, to breed even more carefully, these days.

We also used to rescue, but can now no longer afford to do so. Within the last three months, one beautiful Paint mare has been placed in her new home and our gorgeous Arabian gelding has also gone to a young lady who has known him for a long time. Our very old Arabian gelding rescue, sadly had to be put to sleep. At well over 30, he had two many problems to think of placing him elsewhere. He will always be remembered and is buried here at home, with other beloved animals of the past. We never did put him up for adoption, since he was very old when originally coming to us. Even though we did not breed him and know nothing of his background, he, like every other horse, deserved in the end, to die with his loving family around him and with dignity. And yes, we were the ones who cried as he gently left us. Not his breeders or last owners, who allowed him to almost starve to death. 

Lizzie


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Remali said:


> Seriously? I know of a few "backyard breeders" who bred and raised national Champions. It's sort of insulting to say that a person can't breed for quality if they are not a big name breeder. There are many people who have bred raised a high quality horse, who would be considered backyard breeders. And I know a couple people who did that, bred and raised a quality horse and went on to win at Nationals. Also, anyone remember the Champion Arabian stallion Khemosabi, he came from a backyard breeder. My friends would also fall under the category backyard breeders, they have went on to win at Nationals. People who breed one or two foals can, and do, breed for quality.


You are misunderstanding the way the term "backyard" breeding is being used here. Your friends are STILL breeding for quality, even if they do it in their "backyard". They put thought into it, the resulting foals were of the caliber to be competitive etc. That IS NOT backyard breeding. That is called careful breeding.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

MsBHavin said:


> she'll blame everything but her decision to breed. it was the economy, rich grandpa passed away and left me nothing, a deer farted sideways in the woods! *you get where I'm going*


That's a little bit of an unfair statement. I would go with "People will.say..." but I wouldn't put words in the OP's mouth, so to speak.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Remali said:


> The same question then applies to all of us here... what happens should **we** fall on hard times?



Probably exactly what we stated here would happen. J don't think youngsters have the ability to see how easily this could happen, though. 
My horses are willed to my sister if she can financially afford them, then the choice is hers should anything happen to me.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Calling someone's horse "useless" (post # 64)? Useless to who? Seriously? Wow. Who are you to judge, and why would anyone even say something so awful. I'm done with this thread.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Remali said:


> Calling someone's horse "useless" (post # 64)? Useless to who? Seriously? Wow. Who are you to judge, and why would anyone even say something so awful. I'm done with this thread.


T

The reality IS...far too many people ARE breeding useless horses! Otherwise how would the person who posted #64 end up with 3 grade rescues that SHE found a use for! And I agree with her post.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Gonna start off by saying non of this is referring to the op, 
Honestly, there are 4 main type of breeders,
Backyard which pay no matter to standards or quality, just want babies, either they think they can make money on them or will be able to care for and love every foal for the rest of it's lie - until they get an excessively violent stud colt who they can't handle but feel too guilty to geld so they send it to my local rescue.
Then there are small breeders who pay attention to genetics, quality of foals and parents and health of mare and foal alike, usually only producing a few foals a year and because of the small number they are able to focus on quality upraising of foal and work well to find appropriate homes for the offspring. Those usuallydont make much money, but they produce quality foals and ensure their value for the future.
Then there's medium-large breeders that breed for quantity not quality producing massive amounts of foals and sellingthem off as soon as they're weaned- this happens especially in the mini/small shetland world where they are so cheap to maintain, and require little land. This often produces inreeding or poor quality foals, like my blind mini with teeth unable to chew properly, also at our rescue.
Then there are the medium-large breeder who breed the highest quality horses for big bucks, buthe large number of foals they produce each year limits their ability to ensure proper homes for each, or giving them a good quality start, often selling to the hughest bidder, not always the best home. Thus the high number of unwanted well bred horses at our rescue that were given up when they were used up by poor owners, despite tehir quality breeding.

Then there are all the breeders in between them.

Personallt i preferthe small, intelligent, quality breeders who produce a few great foals every year, provide the best beginning and find the best homes. They are also not flooding a market with too many of any one type of foal.

For the op, breed if you want, just ensure the safety an care of the foal, ensure the genetics have no serious faults and the foal will be lived and you will be doing a good thing. But rescuing is wonderful too. There are numerous prgnant minis for adoption as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^great post! When you hit the two medium-large breeders, is where it can flood the market and attract OR detract from the serious buyers. But what IS good, is that the person without a lot of money....can get a good deal on a baby that isn't a world beater, but STILL bred well and suitable for the average person.


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## advelanch (Aug 25, 2012)

sorry guys I got mad for a while. I am not a little kid but i am young. I would like to show him but right now he is a little immature and i am waiting for him to mellow out some so i would like to show him as a senor stallion, I live in Michigan, there are no shows anywhere around me so chances are I would have to travel out of state. I would never ever sell a horse at an action or starve them, I have people who would be happy to take the foal.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Dont worry, forums open people up for all sorts of miscommunications,

Out of curiosity i just looked up on petfinder how many shetlands and minis are available for adoption, there are over 300 in my area alone that need homes. And those are only the ones in rescues or shelters that care to publish them and fight for good homes for them. When you think of it thats only a small percentage of how many are actually in need o homes- compared to the thousands i'm sure that are ending up in auctions or neglected in someone's backyard every year. It truly appals me how many unwanted horses there are in this country. I have a mini a shetland and 3 other small ponies at my rescue, why are they here?! Why didn't their owners love or care for them, one is only 6 but blind due to inbreeding, another is only 2 but needs special diet due to horrible misbreeding causing a deformation in his mouth, his teeth don't line up to eat. We only take horses who can not get a home, but there are hundreds, if not thousands that need homes near here. 

I'm not saying this to say anything about you or evento change your mind simply just that i am so truly appalled at how incredibly certain humans have let down our poor pony friends. Something needs to change, every week at camelot i see 3-5 small ponies at the auction EVERY week!! Thats 3 ponies on average times 52 weeks thats 156 ponies in auction!!! Thats horrific!! Hasn't anyone else done the math and seen how wrong this is? I only mention this on your thread because the discusssion was brought up, nit because i think your a bad person- but if you create another life i honestly pray that little life lives the best life possible and doesn't join the masses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

GotaDunQH said:


> T
> 
> The reality IS...far too many people ARE breeding useless horses! Otherwise how would the person who posted #64 end up with 3 grade rescues that SHE found a use for! And I agree with her post.


Thank you. :wink:

It's not awful. It's truth. How many minis or ponies go to auction? Why breed when you can rescue is my point..?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ButternutSquash (Sep 10, 2012)

They care for these minis and Shetlands and have a purpose in mind for their foal. Yes you can get a rescue but what makes these rescues any easier to resell than a foal in the case that finding a new home is necessary. Rescues are rescues for a reason If the foal is ride-able it could be donated to a good cause where as an aged rescue with health problems could not. 

I'm not saying this is good or it makes me happy I'm just saying that it being a cross breed with mediocre but useable confirmation doesn't make it undesirable.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

^^^^ Have you tried to donate a good sensible riding horse recently
Its almost impossible to find a good home for one that can be ridden by pretty much any age/size of rider never mind a mini thats really not going to be any use for anything other than a companion
No one was even bidding on the ones at the last sale we went too
If the OP wants to breed then thats her choice, its not going to harm her little stallion but if its just to 'prove' him or 'prove' the mare or get cross bred mini then I just cant see the point


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

jaydee said:


> ^^^^ Have you tried to donate a good sensible riding horse recently
> Its almost impossible to find a good home for one that can be ridden by pretty much any age/size of rider never mind a mini thats really not going to be any use for anything other than a companion
> No one was even bidding on the ones at the last sale we went too
> If the OP wants to breed then thats her choice, its not going to harm her little stallion but if its just to 'prove' him or 'prove' the mare or get cross bred mini then I just cant see the point


There is a reserve champion working cow horse Arabian stallion in Colorado that is for free. 
He has been available.for months. It's hard placing anything, even an accomplished, money winning stallion.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

ButternutSquash said:


> Rescues are rescues for a reason If the foal is ride-able it could be donated to a good cause where as an aged rescue with health problems could not. .


Yes rescues are rescues for a reason, let me tell you some of those reasons straight from the horses at my rescue.
a 2 year old colt, an accident foal who wasn't gelded, became to violent for his inexperienced owner - a quick gelding turned him into a fantastically wonderful pony. Only to find out his mouth is so deformed he can hardly chew due to the horrible missmatch of breeds with his parents (A shetland and a gypsy vanner).
A 6 year old welsh mountain pony who was raised by an adoring family, every morning he'd let himself out of his stall so he could go eat coco-puffs with the family's kids, just a loving member of the family - who was hit by the hard economy, had their house repossessed and had to give up their pony and put down their blind, aging appaloosa.
a 3 year old mini who is completely blind, bred by a man who thought he could make millions on mini's by putting about 200 in a field together and selling off the resulting foals. Due to the horrible lack of knowledge behind it most of the horses were taken by humane societies and either put down or found homes. We took ours because she's blind and would have otherwise been euthanized.
A gorgeous Arabian mare given to use at 7 years old, she is Perfect, but no one put the time into making her useful - so she sits at our rescue.

There are thousands of horses in this country who are sound, sane and quality horses who are at rescues because their owners have been hit by the current economy. With the massive number of horses in our country and the shrinking number of good homes every new foal is one less home for one of the already existing horses.

I'm not telling the OP not to breed, it's her decision and her pony looks wonderful.
But say she does breed him, the foal will now have a home somewhere, with her grandfather or someone he gives the foal to, that home is one less home for one of the thousands of wonderful horses who have no home.

Rescues should not need to waste their space with sound, trained, good quality horses - but we do. The point of rescues is to take horses who no longer have a use in society because they have been used up or are broken in one way or another, but instead we are flooded with wonderful, perfect horses who just need a home, but there aren't enough of those to go around. And often our rescues are so full of sound, wonderful horses the less than perfect loose out, and the perfect ones who just need one little thing to make them more placeable loose out when we are too busy with more immediate issues.


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## advelanch (Aug 25, 2012)

Remali said:


> Seriously? I know of a few "backyard breeders" who bred and raised national Champions. It's sort of insulting to say that a person can't breed for quality if they are not a big name breeder. There are many people who have bred raised a high quality horse, who would be considered backyard breeders. And I know a couple people who did that, bred and raised a quality horse and went on to win at Nationals. Also, anyone remember the Champion Arabian stallion Khemosabi, he came from a backyard breeder. My friends would also fall under the category backyard breeders, they have went on to win at Nationals. People who breed one or two foals can, and do, breed for quality.


for this i would say all of those big name breeders had to start somewhere. they don't just come up with i don't know 30 mares and at least a stud and a big farm and all of this money. and even if they did get all of those horses, they probably would not be that good. and the breeders are not famous overnight.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

advelanch said:


> for this i would say all of those big name breeders had to start somewhere. they don't just come up with i don't know 30 mares and at least a stud and a big farm and all of this money. and even if they did get all of those horses, they probably would not be that good. and the breeders are not famous overnight.


True, but they started with the BEST they could afford, and you'd NEVER see them asking breeding logistics online.


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## advelanch (Aug 25, 2012)

The mare just came and moved in with us. Same as her big best friend. We got the pony mares papers and her dad has a great pedigree and her mom is completely unknown. We also found out the pony is a registered class b mini. We are gelding one of the stallions and may breed the 3 yr old to her and see if he can even get a girl pegnet. The other stallion can't.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Colour me confused. Is this pony mare the one belonging to your grandfather? The Shetland you said earlier, was not very good? Is the stud, the Mini - class B? Minis are horses and are not ponies, so I'm very confusted as to exactly what you are trying to breed.

Lizzie


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Maybe they thought the B mini was a pony strictly due to size? Or the B mini is also an ASPC Shetland as well?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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