# Knee placement during the rising/posting trot



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Yes, the knee stays in contact.  A common exercise to make sure you did it as a learner was to put a small piece of paper between your knee and the saddle, and you weren't allowed to lose it! :rofl: Of course, you're also supposed to be in _relaxed_ contact with the saddle, not hanging on like a nutcracker...

Probably the best way to visualise when trotting is - sit tall in the saddle, stretch your head up as if trying to reach something just above it (but relaxed, not stiff), and stretch your legs loosely down to the stirrups/ground, while having "sticky" inside legs that hug (but don't crush) the saddle/horse. Other than that, relax relax relax. Let the motion of the horse give you the upward movement - don't make it with your legs. Try to minimise the height you go to when posting (think "I am heavy"), and come back into the saddle gently. This will give you a nice sustained core workout too, just like Pilates - because you're using your core to do this correctly.

I've never heard "point your knees outwards" for advice on posting at the trot... seems to make as much sense as "vigorously wiggle your ears when posting"...

Have fun with your trotting!


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Function takes precedence over form! Relaxation allows you to follow the horse's movements, holding on with the inside of your thighs allows you to stay with the horse should it decide to move sideways. Don't just look at another rider's form, think about how their riding style makes sense to keep you safe and the horse comfortable. Don't buy into, "You never..." or "You always..." without asking "Why? What are the trade-offs?"

If, in case of a sudden acceleration, your only points of contact with the horse are the stirrups and the reins, you and your horse _will not_ have a nice ride.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

> It seemed to me in 1933, when this book appeared (and I haven't changed my mind since), that if the rider's position depended primarily on firmly fixed knees then he was greatly hampered in the use of his legs. For, as long as a strong use of the legs releases the wedging of the knees, it would seem that the rider's position would be weakened every time he had to control the horse forcibly. Of course, on perfectly schooled horses, such moments may occur very rarely and don't have to be considered seriously; but a perfectly schooled horse is far from being a general case in this world, at least today.
> 
> I am also against gripping strongly with knees alone because as a result of abrupt movements of the horse which the rider has not been able to follow rhythmically he often loses his position by pivoting on the knees, usually landing on the horse's neck or beyond. All of us have seen this happen to such riders during unexpected refusals or irregular take-offs for the jump. Obviously, gripping with the lower thighs, knees and upper calves is stronger than with the knees alone.
> 
> ...


I think the knee should be close or touching the saddle, but not fixed in place. I also disagree with the advice to let the horse lift you out of the saddle. I was taught posting by a former cowboy. He said you posted, working harder so the horse would work less, and thus arrive at the work site with more energy for work. If you rely on the horse to lift you out of the saddle, the horse is working harder (lifting you farther) than if you didn't post. Why post if it makes the horse work harder?

"_I was leaning forward and pretty much pushing from my toes, ughhh._"

Maybe not ughhh. Not a fan of toes in stirrups, but by leaning forward, you place your center of gravity over the stirrups. That is, by definition, being "with your horse". If your center of gravity is behind the stirrups, you are behind your horse (unless you have taught him to shift HIS weight back, for 'collection'.). And by pushing on the stirrups, you are lifting yourself off the back instead of making the horse do extra work. If you wait for your dance partner to move you, you aren't dancing. You are wrestling.

From Harry Chamberlin:


> The knees rest snugly at all times against the saddle, which follows naturally if the trunk, seat and thighs are placed just as described. *They do not grip hard except in emergencies, or to prevent the seat from slipping forward in the saddle, in case the horse slows his pace of halts abruptly.*
> 
> Gripping to tightly with the knees or thighs is fatiguing, produces general stiffness, and squeezes a rider out of his seat, just as a lemon seed can be forced out from between the thumb and forefinger by squeezing. Unfortunately it is a habit instinctive with beginners. The leg grip should be most powerful *just below the knees*, and is produced by the calves. The knees also tighten, however, to hold the seat in place if the horse pulls, or when much tension is required on the reins. The brace of the feet against the stirrups, (due to the very low position of the heels), assisted by the pressure of the knees when necessary, permits a rider to maintain the forward inclination of the body and hold his seat in place while restraining a pulling horse. Also, in case the horse stumbles, "pecks" in front of a jump, or stops unexpectedly, the grip of the knees increases to help keep the seat fixed in place. It is vital in all these cases, that the back be kept naturally straight, and not humped over, in order to keep from falling forward. *Always, the body is inclined forward from the hips.*...
> 
> ...A common fault always to be guarded against, is stiffening the knee joints. Only when purposely standing in the stirrups should this be done. Normally, the knee joints are almost completely relaxed. They are not entirely limp, but work sufficiently to keep the lower legs in place...


_"General Chamberlin, before his death in 1944, was generally acknowledged to be America’s greatest horseman.

Brig. Gen H.D. Chamberlin studied at the French (Samur) and Italian (Tor di Quinto) cavalry academies in the 1920’s. He brought modern Italian and French concepts home to the U.S. Army Equestrian Team in the 1930’s and early 1940’s. Chamberlin’s method was generally based on the Italian school of Caprilli. His books, which included the Fort Riley Cavalry Manual, set forth these ideas very clearly. Fort Riley pupils (enlisted men and officers) had an enormous influence on American riding from at least the 1930’s through the 1970’s. One of Chamberlin’s most famous books, Training Hunters Jumpers and Hacks, was first published in 1937._"

Brigadier General Harry D. Chamberlin | Equestrian Coach


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Yup for sure your knee should be in contact with the saddle.

The posters who are talking of relaxation and a feeling of hugging with the legs have the right thoughts, gripping bad, hugging and keeping contact is good. Keeping that light contact means that you can lightly cue what you want of them.

Yes you want to take the ‘feeling’ of the horse lifting from the saddle, that keeps you in the correct rhythm, especially when you are learning. Once you have the basics, then you can progress to using your rise and your body to influence the trot.

I like Sally Swift’s visualization for getting your rising sorted, thinking more of a forward movement than up and down. SO do think of an elastic holding you up from your helmet so you are sat tall, NOT leaning forward. Then think of rising with a elastic rope coming out of your belly button, so while you are sat tall, you feel your horse lift you, and you lift your belly up and forward.

We always used to teach by chanting up down up down, now I think forward and back. Never flop back into the saddle, feel that elastic lower you back and down.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

If you can post without stirrups then you are posting correctly...usually :wink: 

When posting, your bottom should rise forward and slightly up towards your hands. Your shoulders should remain mostly in the same place as when in the sitting phase. Your lower legs should remain steady and not swing. 

One does not want to be leaning forward, as that puts the horse more on the forehand and they will get heavy in your hand. Plus the rider will more than likely come off over the shoulder if the horse bucks. 

It is hard to learn posting, but once you learn you will not forget! 

Think smooth and gentle, softly rising as little as possible out of the saddle.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

bsms said:


> I think the knee should be close or touching the saddle, but not fixed in place. I also disagree with the advice to let the horse lift you out of the saddle. I was taught posting by a former cowboy. He said you posted, working harder so the horse would work less, and thus arrive at the work site with more energy for work. If you rely on the horse to lift you out of the saddle, the horse is working harder (lifting you farther) than if you didn't post. Why post if it makes the horse work harder?


If done correctly, it doesn't make the horse work harder, because if you're posting correctly, you're barely moving, and because you're going _with_ the horse's movement, not _against_ it. You only resist the movement if you want your horse to slow down, and teach that as a cue for slowing down. The whole idea of posting is to make things easier for horse and rider over distance and at more extended trots - and for me, that included endurance riding, where you most certainly don't want to hinder your horse. Also, when you post in the arena, you're not going to get lightness and elegance, or a happy partnership, if you're making things _harder_ for the horse.

The basic physics of it is this: Kinetic energy is transferred from horse to rider through the movement of the horse - and there's nothing much the rider can do about that part, since they are on the horse and attached to nothing else (normally :Angel: - unless there is a bungee cord to an emergency crane perhaps?). You do have some influence about what you're going to do with the (kinetic) energy the horse imparts on you - whether that's going to end up mostly as kinetic energy moving your own body (i.e. horse moves, you move) or whether you're going to turn some of that into elastic potential energy by literally being "rubbery" and letting it dissipate somewhat that way - you're not actually a spring, but you can absorb some of the shock. (Presumably - and amusingly - the amount of wobble in our relaxed tissues is correlated with shock absorption!) Anyway, "being rubbery" / "being relaxed" is what we teach novice riders who are trying to come to grips with posting, so that they don't get thrown up too far by the horse's movement, because that becomes both inelegant and inefficient, not to mention that it predisposes the rider to a harder landing on his poor horse's back.

The whole point of keeping in soft contact with your inner legs, in Continental/English riding, and in bareback riding, is to increase the friction between horse and rider at this interface, so that you remain satisfactorily attached to your horse even in the event of sudden unanticipated movement in directions not envisaged by the rider. :charge: :falloff: :rofl: :runpony:

Of course, it also has the added advantage that you are then firmly enough attached to the horse not to be catapulted bodily skyward (and then perhaps describing a nice parabola ending in the transformation of kinetic energy to sound and heat energy) by the horse's movement - and I've ridden some horses who have that effect - steep-shouldered beasts who ride like jackhammers.










I quite agree that knees don't stay in one spot - but they do stay softly hugging, in our style of riding! 

And I think it's unnecessary for a rider to try to create upward movement with their legs when posting, when they are already getting kinetic energy imparted on them no matter what they do with it - whether they try to absorb/convert to forms other than kinetic as much as possible, in a sitting trot, or use some of it to create a small gap between horse and rider. This isn't so the rider can save energy _not_ using their legs, but so that they can stay relaxed through their legs and in soft and steady contact with the horse.

If the rider wants to use their legs to save the horse energy, probably one of the most effective ways to do that is to get off periodically when the horse is walking, and walk beside the horse - this is also good for letting the horse get increased circulation into its back, and giving it a general break from our weight, and allowing muscles to stretch and loosen a bit, both in horse and rider. This strategy can be seen in endurance competitions.

I think one of the differences here is comparing apples with, if not oranges, then certainly a different variety of apples. Western and Continental/English styles of riding, and their gear, are slightly different. Continental/English tack tends to weigh less and allows you to sit in close contact with your horse, and so you ride slightly differently.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

mmshiro said:


> If, in case of a sudden acceleration, your only points of contact with the horse are the stirrups and the reins, you and your horse _will not_ have a nice ride.


Mmmmh, depends! :Angel: The ride might improve for the horse after the rider returns to earth during this process! :rofl:

:runpony:


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

SueC said:


> Mmmmh, depends! :Angel: The ride might improve for the horse after the rider returns to earth during this process! :rofl:
> 
> :runpony:


Only if the contact with the reins is as tenuous as the contact with the stirrups, though...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If the horse's energy is lifting you up above his back, he is working harder than if YOU lift yourself above his back. If you wish to work with the horse, you put pressure in the stirrup (or thighs if stirrupless) and lift yourself a nanosecond before the horse's back rises. If the horse's movement is lifting you up, then his energy is being transferred to your body. If he is already lifting his back so aggressively that you are being thrown into the air, then the horse is already wasting energy. Which might be right for show, but is not efficient travel.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

The horse is already working by carrying you. The balance of work you share determines the efficiency of the working pair IMO. You don't want him over working, and you don't want to overwork yourself. Share the load.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Wish I could like your post more than once @SueC great explanation. 

I’m still struggling with the notion of somehow not letting the horse provide the impetus for the rise, how the hell do you rise ahead of the motion? Sounds like a recipe for disaster. Strange how once again a very simple long held, efficient concept appears not to be understood.

I have ridden many many miles, on all sorts of horses *gasp* out hunting and hacking, not in an arena, the only difference is I would often give both of us a break by not coming down after the rise. Not sure if it’s a proper 2 point, nor is it standing in the stirrups completely, because those hugging legs are also providing support. It does seem to make it easier on both horse and rider to change it up some.

I guess one difference is English riders all learn to rise, very early on, we become ‘good’ at it. Many English riders would rarely use a sitting trot fir any time. Sitting trot in English is a strange thing used by us arena riders, of little use in the real world. Learning to sit an English horse is a challenge, especially when he is a 16.3hh TB!


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

bsms said:


> If the horse's energy is lifting you up above his back, he is working harder than if YOU lift yourself above his back. If you wish to work with the horse, you put pressure in the stirrup (or thighs if stirrupless) and lift yourself a nanosecond before the horse's back rises. If the horse's movement is lifting you up, then his energy is being transferred to your body. If he is already lifting his back so aggressively that you are being thrown into the air, then the horse is already wasting energy. Which might be right for show, but is not efficient travel.


You are overthinking posting. A rider uses the forward motion of the horse to lift themselves (the rider) out of the saddle in time/rhythm with the horse. That is working with the horse. Sure it is easier to post with stirrups but someone does not brace against them to lift themselves up. People post without stirrups all of the time. The best at that exercise do not grip with their knee, but keep and use a tight lower leg.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

It sounds to me like you might be pinching/gripping with your knees. This will pitch you forward like you describe. Try bringing your shoulders back and opening your hip angle just a bit. 

I think your trainer is exaggerating the point so that you can feel the difference. 

Does your saddle have knee blocks? This could be a factor. Personally, I hate them and remove them on all my saddles. 

Can you post easily without stirrups? If you can't your probably using your knees to compensate. 

You knee should be relaxed at the side of the saddle and not gripping. Have you been riding for a year as it sounds like from your post? The knee thing is what I would expect the next step to be in developing great equitation at this point. 

Do you mind if I ask who you ride with in Berkeley? I live just north of you in the east bay.


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## Chappywillbehisname (Mar 1, 2018)

I tend to grip and pivot ("fetal position" per instructors) that is why I think they want me to keep my knees pointing outwards and to focus on lower leg on the horse instead. It's been a hard journey let me tell you lol.


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## Chappywillbehisname (Mar 1, 2018)

Yes, I tend to get stiff. I am working on relaxation.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Watch some videos on YouTube of upper level riders posting. Not a tutorial, just people riding. 

Then have someone video you, and compare. 

If you can see what you are doing wrong, it will be easier to fix. 

Then you get to try to learn to sit the trot! :rofl:


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## Chappywillbehisname (Mar 1, 2018)

Interesting read most definitely helpful. I will try on tomorrows lesson! Keep in mind the knee snuggle.


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## Chappywillbehisname (Mar 1, 2018)

Oh I can't lol. It's a struggle. I'm trying though!


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## Chappywillbehisname (Mar 1, 2018)

Yes, the mare I ride is very bouncy and my sitting trot is a mess. I have only seen this one lady sit her trot amazingly. It all comes to relaxation and sitting deep into the saddle.


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## Chappywillbehisname (Mar 1, 2018)

You're correct. I do tend to grip with my knees particularly when the horse moves faster or I get tired. Most probably that is why the instructors want to keep my knees out of the way. I use lesson saddles and there are 2 particular ones I use and I think one of them has those knee blocks. Stirrup-less posting is something I have not been successful on. For one, I was using my back to rise. Then my shoulders. I focus on my thighs now but barely rise up. I have been blaming it on being out of shape so I am working on that with hopes to post w/out stirrups. I ride at Blackhound Equestrian in Castro Valley since March last year and prior to that barn I was at a dressage barn in Briones CA for about 3 months. My 1 yr riding anniversary sometime next week.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

mmshiro said:


> Only if the contact with the reins is as tenuous as the contact with the stirrups, though...


Not necessarily. If you hang on to the reins really hard, with insufficient friction between the horse-rider interface at the inside leg, a horse may be able pull you out of your saddle by them, or at least sufficiently unbalance you to do this: :falloff:

Not comfortable for their mouth, but does happen sometimes , especially with small children, headstrong ponies, and nicely padded English hackamores... and even easier for the horse/pony when ridden bareback...

Also, the more athletic horses are able to make all sorts of acrobatic movements if they are feeling especially inspired, sometimes irrespective of what you are doing with your reins at the time. ;-)

Result: :falloff: :runpony:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think it is often not so much an issue of where your knee is, but how your lower leg is. If you 'grip up', then a tight knee really CAN become a pivot point.


If you have a firm knee, but also some thigh contact, and some calf contact, and your heel reaching downward, then you probably won't have that pivot point problem.


My suggestion is to every once in a while, take your whole lower leg off the horse. Let your heel drop down , bring the toes up, then put it back on the horse. You can even take the whole leg off, from the hip, and do this.


Another thing is to take your foot out of the stirrup (at a standstill is easiest ), let your leg drop down as if you are trying to drag the bottom of your feet on the ground, like primitive 'brakes'! then, just very simply raise your toe until you can sneak it into the stirrup. And off you go.!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Golden Horse said:


> Wish I could like your post more than once @SueC great explanation.


Thank you kindly, I'm glad you found it helpful. It's only shown some simple physics though, and if we're going to get nitty-gritty, we're going to have to make reference to vectors as well, and analyse the forces on horse and rider, and the motion of horse and rider in relation to each other, using these. Anyone want to do a biomechanics PhD? Where's @gottatrot, she's into this kind of nerdiness as well! 

I'll ruminate a little more later on that stuff. Meanwhile, something more entertaining:


*A CONFESSION... :hide: AND A THOUGHT...*

My American HF buddies already know this, but here goes anyway: When we learnt to ride in Germany, we were riding in English/Continental gear (either that, or bareback). This is in the early 1980s, which is just after the Pleistocene. And we'd never seen a Western saddle, except in the really bad C-grade yee-haw movies occasionally on European television at the time. So already, we kids were associating Western saddles with ways of relating to horses that we wouldn't have found acceptable in our circles - spurring them, ripping at their reins, treating them as mere transport, not being considerate and kind to them.

And then we met some people with Western saddles. They weren't Americans, they were _Bavarians_ dressed up as cowboys - to get some sense of the hilarity of this, imagine a _Texan_ in Lederhosen and braces and a little hat with a goat's beard decoration, yodelling and doing this, but in _Texas_:










Might raise a few local eyebrows? 

Anyway, the first time we saw a real-life Western saddle, we said, "Oh look, it's a sofa on horseback! _And_ it has a Jesus handle!"

And the local Bavarians were using them _exactly_ like that... it was what the local people who didn't do very well staying on horses in Continental/English saddles appeared to be using to stay on their horses. (We'd never even seen roping on TV!)

Apparently these saddles have better shock absorption, sort of like the sprung bicycle saddles on mountainbikes and BMX bikes, as compared to the standard road bicycle version. I wouldn't know, as I've never actually ridden in a saddle like that, but it's shaped quite differently, and would cause you to ride somewhat differently in any event. Also, it's clearly a different style of riding.

And here's a link to a piece on Ursula Bruns, who rode many years all over the world and tried out all sorts of different riding styles, and has a lot of respect for all sorts of different approaches:

https://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/alternative-german-rider-1922-2016-3-a-793527/


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

Oh nice. I haven't had a chance to check out the barns in Briones area, but I did ride at Graceland when in college. Great barn but one of the gals there punched the horse in the face for no reason right before my ride. I'll never forget that... They thought the horse I drew was the worst one in the barn out of the 20+ at the show, but I manged 2nd on the poor guy, I just had to let him try for me and he gave me all he had. Someone from my high school started the Cal team there and she had this attitude that she was better than everyone, but really she just had a lot of $,$$$,$$$. Still glad she started the team so I could have the experience of riding there. 
Anyway besides my weird experiences there Graceland is still a phenomenal barn, and all the ones I've seen around there are awesome too, the people there really know their stuff.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

My take on the knee during posting trot is that it's wrong to think about the knee at all. I believe if you think about the knee, you're making it difficult to use your leg securely. The knee is important, because it is a joint that needs to do the job of letting us connect our upper leg/weight to the lower leg. But we shouldn't think of it as part of the connection to the horse, IMO.

I also think people believe a still lower leg means you're trying to keep your leg stuck onto the horse in a single position. What some people don't realize is that a still lower leg actually moves up and down on the horse's side as you move, creating friction. The illusion of stillness is because it doesn't move forward or back, but it does move up and down.

To me what you do with your leg is exactly the same whether you're trotting, posting, cantering or galloping. For a good example, watch this young girl. If you only look at her lower leg, it appears that it almost does not move. If you actually look at the horse's belly, you'll see that her leg is sliding (with friction as @SueC says) up, down, forward and back while remaining in the same relative position on the horse.
Like her, I ride the same position whether english or western, and use the upper leg/body to absorb motion while keeping the lower leg as my base. The knees and hips are the hinges that allow that to happen.





If she were going to post, she'd do the exact same thing with her lower leg, but simply oppose the forward motion of the horse with her thigh muscles and sit down gently. I don't think of posting as lifting, but rather as opposing the forces that want to push me up out of the saddle. It's like you catch yourself, and then gently sit to ease the motion for the horse. You can either sit, halfway sit, or even just rock the motion back and forth between your legs in a light seat or two point. 

In this picture I put an X on the knee, because to me that is unimportant. If you're on a narrow, flat bodied horse, your knee may point forward. If you're on a round, sprung barreled horse your knee may point out. The knee just follows the angle of your hip that you have to open at various degrees to sit on the horse.
The important part is just above and below the knee, at the back of the leg. That is the top inner calf and the lower inner thigh. Of those two, the top inner calf is most important because if you have shorter stirrups and are jumping, sometimes you take the thigh off the horse. 









Watching eventing, I learned that a super secure seat comes from basically the length of your back inside calf keeping friction on the horse. If you watch the riders, you'll see that they basically use the stirrups to assist them keeping that connection with the inside calf, and that is what enables the seat. It's the same with posting, or any riding we do. You can see their knees are really just there to bend the leg, not grip or anything else. When they're going over the jumps it's really just "extreme posting."


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

That's a super analysis, @gottatrot! Thanks for weighing in, that's all great stuff, and really clear and easy to understand. 

When I'm trotting or cantering bareback, and doing a bit of an internal "scan" around my body, I really realise just how much my lower legs are super important in keeping me on that horse.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

OK, a bit more physics to expand on what I said in a previous post (which I'll italicise here). If any of you have insomnia, you might find this helpful! ;-) 

(Unless nerdy stuff excites you...)

_The basic physics of it is this: Kinetic energy is transferred from horse to rider through the movement of the horse - and there's nothing much the rider can do about that part, since they are on the horse and attached to nothing else._

In other words, as riders we're always going to owe much of our kinetic energy to the horse we are riding. It's one of the main reasons we ride - because they are so much better than us at moving for long periods, and moving fast. I'm sure my horse thinks I'm disabled, and he's my special needs wheelchair.  You should see the looks he gives me after we've walked next to each other a while between two gates on the way to the forest trails, when we get to the other side of the second gate and he's fed up with walking. He stops and looks at me, "C'mon, get on, I'm sick of slow-coaching like this!" :charge:

Most of the kinetic energy we've got from the horse is taking us in the direction of travel. Some of it is just the "wobble" of the horse as it moves transferring to us, which includes up-and-down and sideways movements and can feel jarring, and this is the main part that we have to learn to adjust to when we learn riding. We already understand forward momentum from bicycle riding - but bicycles stay nice and smooth, unless we go over bumps.

My husband is not a rider. He got on my Arabian mare once and I took them for a walk on the lead. After a while, I asked, "How is it?" - "Juddery," said he. "Sort of like being drunk, without the euphoria." :rofl:

My Arabian mare was a smooth horse, and they were only walking. But this is the typical impression a beginner rider gets when getting on a horse. "Oooh, it's all juddery!" I remember how I nearly cried with disappointment as a nine-year-old when we first started trotting in the riding school. It was so awful! I felt like my ribs were going to break. I constantly got a stitch. It really was like this:










Especially on a mare called Ceijka - a sweet thing we kids loved, but her shoulders were really straight, and her trot was extra-juddery - we'd breathe a sigh of relief once she was cantering, when we were more advanced.

So a lot of our early trotting lessons were learning to go with the horse's movement, and to be as rubbery and relaxed as possible, while sitting nice and tall and stretching down into our heels - and at a (slow) sitting trot, before the posting trot. When we do this correctly, we don't fall into the horse's back anymore, and are a lot less irritating to the horse in other ways as well. Then, the horse can relax and travel more smoothly as well. Because one of the big vicious cycles of beginner riding is that the tense, juddering all over the place rider is uncomfortable for the horse, who then tenses up and becomes more uncomfortable and juddery to ride. And it's the rider who has to break that cycle.

Some alternative riding schools have ground exercises and theory lessons as part of the package for beginner riders, to minimise their interference with the horses when they first start riding:

https://www.horseforum.com/horse-ri...an-rider-1922-2016-3-a-793527/#post1970588887

Since we're talking physics, one of the forces I've not mentioned here that affects us when horse riding is gravity, and not just when we're falling off. Gravity helps keep us on the horse, and helps keep the horse on the ground, which is terribly convenient. But, gravity also will make us fall heavily back down into our horse's back at the trot (especially posting) if we don't learn to counteract this force by using our muscles effectively. And, gravity gives our body's mass its weight, which makes it work for the horse just to have us sitting on its back, even at a standstill (they're not a chair, they have to use their muscles to hold themselves upright and off the ground). Accelerating our additional mass on top of their own makes more work for the horse, just as when we are carrying a pretty hefty backpack.

So we're talking about how to be a comfortable "backpack" for our horse, and a thinking, interacting one at that. We're not strapped on (well, most of us), and we mostly use balance, friction between the horse and our inside legs, and moving elastically with the horse, to stay on a moving horse in Continental/English riding, and bareback riding. That's why the stirrups are taken off us really early on, to help give us an independent seat - a seat that doesn't overly rely on stirrups and saddles to keep us on the horse, and that allows us to do various things like jumping, gymkhana games etc while interfering minimally with the horse's motion - and why we're expected to learn to post without stirrups as well, pretty early in the piece in a European riding school.

It's also why I knew several European children who did gymnastics on horseback (_voltigieren_) - sport is very much about harmony and learning to control your body, in European culture.







_You do have some influence about what you're going to do with the (kinetic) energy the horse imparts on you - whether that's going to end up mostly as kinetic energy moving your own body (i.e. horse moves, you move) or whether you're going to turn some of that into elastic potential energy by literally being "rubbery" and letting it dissipate somewhat that way - you're not actually a spring, but you can absorb some of the shock. (Presumably - and amusingly - the amount of wobble in our relaxed tissues is correlated with shock absorption!) Anyway, "being rubbery" / "being relaxed" is what we teach novice riders who are trying to come to grips with posting, so that they don't get thrown up too far by the horse's movement, because that becomes both inelegant and inefficient, not to mention that it predisposes the rider to a harder landing on his poor horse's back.
_

I just wanted to add to this that the reason we try to minimise our movement when posting is because it minimises our interference with the horse's movement - even were we to land super-softly from great heights, it's better not to go to these.

I love the description I heard once, of what a dressage horse is: A ballerina with a monkey on her back! Since I'm the monkey, I have to interfere as little as possible with the ballerina (or the hiker, or the cross-country runner, or the hurdler, etc), and support her as much as possible - try to become an extension of her. When things are going really well when riding, it almost feels like the horse and I have become a chimera creature - like a centaur, or a hippogriff. You're physically really in tune and able to anticipate each other and work in unison, drawing from each other's strengths, and you're mentally and emotionally in tune as well.


_I quite agree that knees don't stay in one spot - but they do stay softly hugging, in our style of riding! 
_

...as part of the entirety of our inner legs. I think it was really important that @gottatrot pointed this out. I don't think of my knees as a sort of nutcracker point, or of my legs as a nutcracker, when riding - I think of my legs as doing a soft bear hug. And yeah, the lower legs give you more stability than the inner thighs do - although the inner thighs also serve to increase the friction that helps to keep you on your moving horse.


_And I think it's unnecessary for a rider to try to create upward movement with their legs when posting, when they are already getting kinetic energy imparted on them no matter what they do with it - whether they try to absorb/convert to forms other than kinetic as much as possible, in a sitting trot, or use some of it to create a small gap between horse and rider. This isn't so the rider can save energy *not* using their legs, but so that they can stay relaxed through their legs and in soft and steady contact with the horse.
_

When riding bareback, I really feel the elasticity in my horse's back at the trot. It's like sitting on a very comfortable, slightly moving trampoline, or being suspended off a giant elastic band. That's because he's an athletic, smooth horse, and because the horse and I have learnt to adjust to each other and to move pretty much in unison. I prefer the sitting trot when bareback, it's more stable for both of us; and the posting trot when in a saddle. We also break into a canter sooner when riding bareback than we would with a saddle - my horse can trot at racing speed, being trotting bred and harness trained, and at higher speeds, I find the canter more comfortable, and am better able to predict my horse's movements should he come to a sliding stop / go sideways if a kangaroo jumps out of the bushes (as can happen here).

I was thinking about what @gottatrot said - I use the stirrups mainly to assist in keeping my balance, and not for levering myself off of when posting. I was also thinking about @Golden Horse mentioning the forward component when posting:



Golden Horse said:


> I like Sally Swift’s visualization for getting your rising sorted, thinking more of a forward movement than up and down. SO do think of an elastic holding you up from your helmet so you are sat tall, NOT leaning forward. Then think of rising with a elastic rope coming out of your belly button, so while you are sat tall, you feel your horse lift you, and you lift your belly up and forward.
> 
> We always used to teach by chanting up down up down, now I think forward and back. Never flop back into the saddle, feel that elastic lower you back and down.


I think people have different bodies and minds (and horses) and use different visualisations that work for them. The main thing is that if it's helpful, use it. So while I can't quite relate to this particular visualisation (I am hyper-bent in the lumbar region and have to focus on countering that and flattening my abdominal/lumbar area), I expect there are people for whom that is ultra helpful.

One thing I do clearly see is the forward part of the motion when posting - it's slightly forward and slightly upward. One of those vectors!  So it helps to visualise the forward component as well when learning. After a while, with practice, an efficient movement becomes autopilot. Every now and again, we really scrutinise what's become autopilot, to see if we can improve it further.

And about the uprightness of the rider: That's extra important for me, because I'm a tall person with a fair amount of weight in my shoulders and arms, and any movement of my upper body forward and back would be amplified from the horse's perspective, compared to a rider whose upper body was lighter and shorter. Also, I tend to ride medium-sized horses, rather than huge 17hh critters, and they have a shorter "wheel base", so that's more important to them as well.

When I was a child, I was shorter and lighter, and did a lot more cantering perched in stirrups leaning forward in terrain than I do now - it was more comfortable for the horse-rider combination. With my adult body, small and medium horses prefer me to sit the canter and not perch until we get to high speeds. With larger horses, I can perch earlier. I have super-long femurs, and this exaggerates the perching compared to when I was a child. Small, light riders can ride very differently to tall, weightier riders - having been both. The main thing is that we learn what works well for our particular horse-rider combination, and that we know that things are rarely one size fits all - and that there is often more than one good way to do something. 

OK, who's still awake? :Angel:


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

@SueC. Actually that photo would not be an uncommon event in some parts of Tx as there are many German settlements that have kept traditions alive. Same here in Alabama. It can be quite surprising but is part of what drives the tourist industry. I know many that travel from festival to festival to experience the culture of our European friends but never leave the U.S. 



I also think the rein reference (or at least how I took it) was the pain to the horse when you separate ways. Now I have to go back and read.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I found this article and had bookmarked it a couple of years ago. DC was researching sitting vs posting and had questions about why some horses get really grumpy for some people and not others. He found more about the horse than the rider but came to the conclusion that some riders sit a trot more effectively and are doing mini posts. Enough space between saddle and rear to slide a paper between but not so much the paper comes off. The happiest horses at the sit trot had riders that had supreme control while being "rubbery' (love that SueC). It would still impact the amount of force applied to the horse's back but not to the degree of someone that actively tries to keep solid contact with the saddle. It would be like mag lev I expect.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_The basic physics of it is this: Kinetic energy is transferred from horse to rider through the movement of the horse - and there's nothing much the rider can do about that part, since they are on the horse and attached to nothing else._"

Far too simplistic, @SueC. If that is accepted, then nothing we do will affect how freely a horse moves. But that doesn't match what I've seen every time I ride.

Two parts here:

1 - Many horse sports (dressage) value a very energetic motion. I would argue traditional dressage is about getting the horse to use as much energy as possible while crossing the least amount of ground possible. Vertical motion is prized. Forward motion...not so much. Collection is what a horse does naturally - to show how much strength and energy he has while not going anywhere.

If one values vertical motion for its own sake, then you certainly can get away with letting the horse toss you above the saddle. In a big trot, it is pretty hard NOT to get tossed above the horse's back! Since using lots of energy is the goal, who cares?

But if you are posting to make it EASIER on the horse - which is how it developed and its value on a ranch - then you do NOT prize a lot of vertical motion. You want the horse to save energy, not use it. You want flat, level strides and the minimum amount of upward motion needed to cross the ground. In that case: A) The horse will not produce enough energy to get you out of the saddle, and B) Doing some of the work with YOUR legs means the horse has no need to waste "kinetic energy" on you.

For efficiency, a smooth stride and a rider who anticipates the motion will get you the most ground covered for the least energy. It is no different at a walk. You can sit like a sack of potatoes and wait for the horse's motion to move you, or you can rock and shift as needed WITH the motion of the horse's back.

2 - This brings up the second point. If you want to save the horse's back, it isn't just energy that matters. To the extent the horse's back is shoving you up out of the saddle, you are increasing the pressure (PSI) on his back - particularly toward the rear of the saddle. Yes, the saddle has X weight distributed across the saddle at all times. In SOME pattern. And when standing still. When in motion, those pressures vary. 

Part of the goal of posting is to reduce PEAK pressures and how often those peak pressures occur. To the extent your legs (ankles, knees & thigh) act as shock absorbers, you increase the DURATION of the pressure and DECREASE the peak. Same amount of energy must be distributed, but the flexing of your legs allows the pressure to be distributed over more time.

It is the same as jumping off a table. When you land, do you bend at the knees or keep the legs fixed? You bend, reducing the peak pressure as the energy is absorbed over a longer period of time. 

I've watched video of myself "standing in the stirrups", slowed down 8 times to see what happens. As Bandit's back starts to come down, there is a lag before I follow him. His back will start to rise before I can do so - because my downward vector is not immediately changed when his vector does. That darn lag time. My rump will make slight contact with the saddle before I can get going up again. My 'two-point' is intended to keep me about an inch out of the saddle, so I don't have much room to play with. However, I don't notice any contact unless I am paying attention to it, or viewing it on a video. I've had a Buck hunting knife in my back pocket and not noticed it. 

But the video is not lying.

That is two point, or standing in the stirrups to anyone who objects to calling what I do two point. Posting, the peak position should be the same as when I'm standing in the stirrups. The difference is that posting allows my rump to come down every other beat. 



> "The significantly highest load on the horse’s back was at the sitting trot (2112 N), followed by the rising trot (2056 N) [97.3%] and the two-point seat (1688 N) [79.9%]. The rider was most stable in the two-point seat while transferring the lowest load on the horse’s back. The rising trot was found to be more stable and less stressful for the horse’s back compared to the sitting trot."
> 
> A comparison of forces acting on the horse’s back and the stability of the rider’s seat in different positions at the trot


My interpretation of the above: 

In a sitting trot, the pressures per stride would be 2112 N - 2112 N - 2112 N - 2112 N

In a rising trot, the pressures would be 2056 N - 1688 N - 2056 N - 1688 N

Standing in the stirrups would give 1688 N - 1688 N - 1688 N - 1688 N

Peak pressures posting or sitting would be almost identical, but half as frequent.

Of course, that probably reflects the downward movement of the rider as the horse's back starts to rise. But that lag time, I think, has an impact. The rider is still coming down as the horse's back starts to rise. A rider intent on using his legs to get off the horse's back (as well as using the stirrups to keep his rump from hitting the horse's back on the down stroke) is already trying to apply pressure to go up. A rider waiting for the horse's back to thrust him out of the saddle is not. Which is most likely to reduce peak impact forces?

In the absence of hard data, I can only guess. It seems reasonable to me that a rider who is using the stirrups and his legs to actively get out of the saddle will have less pressure in the saddle during that transition time than a rider who is relaxing into the saddle and waiting for the horse to thrust him out. I'd love to see hard date but haven't been able to find any.

In any case, I always want to be anticipating my horse's motion rather than waiting for him to move me. That is true at a walk, trot, canter of gallop. I doubt the discussion affects any experienced riders. They either already know how to get good performance from their horse or don't care. I think new riders or occasional riders benefit to always think in terms of anticipating and moving with rather than waiting and accepting.



updownrider said:


> ...Sure it is easier to post with stirrups but someone does not brace against them to lift themselves up. People post without stirrups all of the time....


I'm not suggesting bracing. In bracing, one cannot use the ankle, knee or hip as hinges to extend how long the pressure is distributed. Braced, one is no different than a sack of potatoes in the saddle. I realize many people believe riding without stirrups is intrinsically valuable. I tend to agree with both Caprilli and Littauer - if you want to protect the horse's back, riding without stirrups teaches bad habits. It is worth doing once in a while so one knows how to respond if you lose a stirrup. Of course, I'm a contrarian on most ideas of riding, but Caprilli and Littauer are good companions for that - and BOTH were interested in a system of good riding for inexperienced or infrequent riders. As I am.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

This was what I was intending to copy from post #30 https://jecballou.com/to-sit-or-not-to-sit/


It brings up some interesting points. 



We as riders all have different goals. The practice of those goals do not always coincide over disciplines. bsms is coming from an angle of the least amount of work in the most efficient manner. Depending on our background we may or may not follow that principle. If the horse is capable and we are in a short duration sport then what is efficient (sitting) may be what we need to use to get the job done and as long as we are performing at our best and not creating undue burden on the horse then we should all agree to disagree on some points.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

I learned to post before kindergarten so I know it didn’t involve math or so much thought. 

Denny Emerson demonstrates proper posting, discusses the sitting trot, and a relaxed knee. But you can see his leg has contact. 

Free Video of the Month | Equestrian Coach


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

updownrider said:


> I learned to post before kindergarten so I know it didn’t involve math or so much thought.
> 
> Denny Emerson demonstrates proper posting, discusses the sitting trot, and a relaxed knee. But you can see his leg has contact.
> 
> Free Video of the Month | Equestrian Coach


I like you reasoning, but unfortunately can't see the video on my computer *sigh*


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

AnitaAnne said:


> I like you reasoning, but unfortunately can't see the video on my computer *sigh*


Can you get to equestriancoach.com

Equestrian Coach | Your Online Equestrian Video Instruction Site

From there you should see Search Videos >>. and can select Free Video of the Month


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Here is a video of a rider that I chose mostly because it is a pony! Smaller horses/ponies can typically have much shorter strides thus sitting and posting can be a bit more challenging. 

Not a lot of posting but some right after 2.24

This rider does it all easily


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

updownrider said:


> I learned to post before kindergarten so I know it didn’t involve math or so much thought.
> 
> Denny Emerson demonstrates proper posting, discusses the sitting trot, and a relaxed knee. But you can see his leg has contact.
> 
> Free Video of the Month | Equestrian Coach



Lol, posting was instilled in us oldies early as you say, becomes instinctive you just take the rhythm and go. Haven’t watched all the video yet, but had to laugh, at myself, at his first demonstration of sitting trot...so looks like my early efforts, the more you try and sit still, the worse everything is and it’s just ugly. 

So far I can sit Chucks collected trot, that is a beautiful gait to sit, his working trot and lengthened I have to rise to, they are to exuberant for me to consider sitting.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Someone mentioned that the action of posting is the same as jumping, but I quite disagree with that. 

Posting is a pelvic movement forward toward the hands and slightly upwards. 

When jumping, the rider gets in more of a crouched position more similar to a jockey. The rear is up and back, not forward and up. 

This is a video of a charming young lady riding around with her friend. 

Especially at the end, you can see how nice her form over the jumps is, while her friend goes too upright.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> Someone mentioned that the action of posting is the same as jumping, but I quite disagree with that.
> 
> Posting is a pelvic movement forward toward the hands and slightly upwards.
> 
> When jumping, the rider gets in more of a crouched position more similar to a jockey. The rear is up and back, not forward and up.


I missed that one...you are right, no correlation between rising on jumping position, in fact they are totally opposite!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

bsms said:


> If one values vertical motion for its own sake, then you certainly can get away with letting the horse toss you above the saddle. In a big trot, it is pretty hard NOT to get tossed above the horse's back! Since using lots of energy is the goal, who cares?


I didn't see anyone on this thread suggesting that you "let your horse toss you above the saddle". Since this isn't what I was saying, I think it's pointless to enter into this particular discussion.




QtrBel said:


> @SueC. Actually that photo would not be an uncommon event in some parts of Tx as there are many German settlements that have kept traditions alive. Same here in Alabama. It can be quite surprising but is part of what drives the tourist industry. I know many that travel from festival to festival to experience the culture of our European friends but never leave the U.S.


Wow, that's really interesting! There's a pretty big German immigrant community in South Australia, and so there's the great bread, and the beer , and some of the traditional dress and dancing etc, but I've not seen a horse and rider in that sort of Bavarian get-up since leaving Europe! You've got more people in the US, and had your immigrants for longer than here in Australia, so maybe ther's more critical mass and that's why this isn't unusual to you! 

@AnitaAnne, such a cute video with those English horses and girls!  Aren't they great? It's a good feeling to be sharing the planet with such nice young people.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

AnitaAnne said:


> Someone mentioned that the action of posting is the same as jumping, but I quite disagree with that.
> 
> Posting is a pelvic movement forward toward the hands and slightly upwards.


The context was about the lower leg, that it stays the same regardless of your pace and whether you are posting or jumping. It was not stated that the action of the pelvis or position of the upper body during posting was the same as jumping. 

I think the girl in the buckskin pony video needs to learn how to use her back better so she doesn't injure herself. She is still young but learning to use your leg strength and core rather than allowing the horse's movement to apply pressure on the spine while it is out of alignment is very important. We can't destroy our bodies trying to make a horse look or move right - body mechanics and maintaining spine and joint alignment are very important. 

I agree with @bsms that a horse doing a western jog or that is very flat-strided will not push the rider out of the saddle, so posting will require some upward action on the rider's part. I don't post very high on a very flat horse, however, because that would be wasted energy. 

It must be far easier to learn posting before kindergarten when you are still developing. I learned as an adult, and it was a lot more difficult than that for me. I've also tried teaching adults how to do it and they find it challenging to learn the movement and timing.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

@AnitaAnne I appreciate you bringing up ponies, or even just small horses. Not only does it become a challenge to post, but I find it more difficult to sit correctly at both a trot and a canter. I find it especially hard to jump ponies. But I am also a bit taller at 5'9". 

One of my horses is smaller, 14.3hh. From nose to tail there's limited sweet spot real estate. He's smaller and has a shorter back. Regardless of his short back, on average all smaller horses are going to have shorter backs than larger horses. I have it sit perfectly on him or it gets cattywampus pretty easily. I usually end up riding him at a slow lengthened trot any time I want to post just so I'm not going up and down so fast. We move the energy from up and down to in front and behind. 

To anyone interested: 
I have seen a lot about posting and kinetic energy and friction and all that, but I haven't seen anyone mention energy dispersion. If you are riding in a 2 point/half seat you have probably experienced sore or weak knees. If your leg and body are still your knees are taking the impact. Same goes at the posting trot. 

Alternately if you are sitting deep in your seat your back is dispersing that kinetic energy up through your spine. This would lead to a sore back. If you have a strong core your muscles can help your bones and joints from taking so much of the force. 

To me it is clear- the thing I do to preserve both myself and the horse is improve their ergonomic movement at all gaits for the best possible sweet spot for both horse and rider. If it's a bouncy horse I move that energy forward, if it's a flat horse I either sit, or if I wanted to post and cover ground I would ask for a more lively trot, and I would train the cue to lift higher by doing work over poles cavaletti etc. If you ever wanted to win an undersaddle class on a crummy mover that's one of the tricks, in addition to controlling the horses movement with your post, and by not sitting fully on their back but making it appear as if though you are making contact with the saddle. 

On a different note... 
In college I did a number of art projects related to horses, but one in particular related closest to this discussion. I made some custom bell boots all different colors and filmed my horse in the round pen. I stabilized the video so that the ground became a constant fixture. I created a piece of software that tracked the colors and plotted their points on a graph. I could isolate any hoof I wanted or put them all together. Ultimately, since it was an art/music project I linked the movement of the hooves to different instruments and sounds. I think hoof height was volume and the forward backward motion was pitch(x). A pleasure horse with much lower action would have created a quieter song, but possibly with more variance in pitch. A dressage horse doing a spanish walk would be both loud and varied pitch, and a piaffe would be loud and quiet but with a fairly constant tone. The horse was then able to be filmed either recorded, or live and create it's own music. Different gaits created different songs. 

Obviously software like this could be used for a number of things, lameness detection, imbalances in the stride, or in other directions like hooking the data points up to a 3D model skeleton to make the skeleton run using actual data points from the horse (similar to in the movie avatar). 

Would be easy to add in other points, such as ones on the rider and horses back to see differences between types of horses through actual numerical data. 

Not so scientific, but certainly math.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

@SueC the young lady is charming! I watch many of her videos and smile the whole time! 

She has two lovely ponies and three donkeys.


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## Volvo (Feb 11, 2019)

I have a question related to how straight can you stay while posting. I try to be as straight as I am while on a walk , but just can't! Or when I do I get tired pretty quickly , after one round of the arena, because I'm exaggerating the straightening of my back. 
I can't rise without stirrups though, I tried, but I couldn't. Lack of strength? 
Also, I read here and a few other places, where you rise on your thigh? I tried to that, but couldn't when my horse trotted faster.


My knees are kinda open when I post.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Stand against a wall with your shoulders back and flat against the wall, your ribs lifted, tummy centered and your hips and heels against the wall, slide down so you feel it slightly in your thighs and practice breathing. Full squats flat on your feet and held also help your posture as it sounds like that is part of your issue. Started young many riders develop good posture and learn how to isolate and use muscles. Older students starting out with poor posture have to not only work on riding skills (cues) but develop muscle, core strength and improve posture so balance is better.


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## Volvo (Feb 11, 2019)

You mean like wall squats? Yeah I do them from time to time, and they kill my quads. 
What do you rise on when you try to rise without stirrups. My instructor told me to rise on my inner thigh when I get the push from my horse. But I couldn't get up.


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## Volvo (Feb 11, 2019)

Oh and my legs tend to slide back after a while in posting??


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