# Bute banned - oxycodone becomes a future alternative



## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

The two drugs are not even close to the same. Bute is an anti-inflammatory drug whereas Oxy is not.....just a pain killer. They are NOT interchangeable.


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## irmaklepper (May 24, 2014)

Very true Allison, however both are generally used to reduce or ease pain, particularly in race horses. If it reduces lameness or simply pain, whilst at the same time reduce the harsh side effects of oral phenylbutazone, what's the down side, remembering the patch opioid is designed not enter the blood stream.


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## VickiRose (Jul 13, 2013)

OP, it HAS to enter the blood stream or it doesn't work. A patch will, however, bypass the digestive system which is where some of the common side effects of bute occur. Eg. Ulcers in prolonged use.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Carcinogenic to who, persons eating the horses? It has to be that because the millions of horses receiving bute aren't getting cancer from it.

Oxycodone is a controlled substance narcotic & a favorite of drug abusers. Patch or pill it enters the blood stream. Allison Finch is right, it is only a pain killer. It is not an anti-inflammatory like bute. What will they be using for inflammatory conditions such as uveitis or laminitis or the many other conditions effecting horses & other animals?

Banning something that works for curing many conditions & replacing it with something that only reduces pain doesn't seem like a very smart idea.

Ever use oxycodone? I have & it will mess with your brain, not something I would want in a horse.


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## irmaklepper (May 24, 2014)

Appreciate the dialogue.
Vicki - do a quick google search of 'peripheral opioid receptors' 
Exciting study is being done and patches being developed to directly treat pain via these receptors whilst avoiding the systemic system. 
Similarly Natisha, these patches will reduce abuse of opioid tablets as they can't enter the blood stream and are very difficult to extract to abuse.
Also, do some quick searches on the ill effects of phenylbutazone. Not great.
But again I appreciate the input.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Abusers will chew the patches for a quick & dangerous high.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

irmaklepper said:


> Appreciate the dialogue.
> Vicki - do a quick google search of 'peripheral opioid receptors'
> Exciting study is being done and patches being developed to directly treat pain via these receptors whilst avoiding the systemic system.
> Similarly Natisha, these patches will reduce abuse of opioid tablets as they can't enter the blood stream and are very difficult to extract to abuse.
> ...


I understand how a localized treatment would be beneficial, such as Surpass that is used, but by banning bute you lose the option when a systemic treatment is indicated.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

*All*drugs should be banned for horses competing. This is the case in the UK, absolutely nothing can be used to enhance a horse's performance.

Blood tests are regularly taken and not just the winning animals.

In showing, horses that have been Hobdayed are banned.


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## VickiRose (Jul 13, 2013)

OP, the peripheral opioid receptors will uptake the drug in the zone the patch is in contact with, but small amounts will be in the blood stream as an unavoidable side effect. Small amounts, but still there. 

My point really is that there are very few conditions in horses where pain is localised to a relatively small area, close the the surface of the skin. The study quoted looked only at canon bone soreness, which is an area close to the skin surface and relatively localised, hence why it worked. There may also be applications where it can be used over areas of the spine, if it can penetrate to the nerves and block pain in that way, but it offers little for more wide spread pain. It also does nothing to reduce inflammation and swelling, which in itself can cause damage beyond initial injury.

I think the technology will have its uses, in select conditions, but I can't see it replacing bute.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

A different thought... I have seen Oxy use in humans. I think I have even taken it once or twice for a few days for surgery type things, can't remember specific drug... but it makes me higher than a kite. I can't even walk straight, I slur, I get giddy, essentially a very happy drunk. There are warning labels on driving vehicles, etc... How does one deal with a 1000+ lb beast of an animal when they are high on this stuff and can't keep their feet straight?!
And also, this ban is only for race horses right? I would be very upset if my non-race horse wasn't allowed to take Bute. She had surgery, and needed the bute for pain *and* swelling... Oxy wouldn't have done that. I concur that they don't seem to have proven all of these bad carcinogenic effects for Bute and horses...


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

irmaklepper said:


> Very true Allison, however both are generally used to reduce or ease pain, particularly in race horses. If it reduces lameness or simply pain, whilst at the same time reduce the harsh side effects of oral phenylbutazone, what's the down side, remembering the patch opioid is designed not enter the blood stream.


First of all, one uses bute NOT just to cover pain, but to help eliminate what is causing the pain. It helps to reduce the inflammation. It HELPS the problem. Oxy does not help anything. It covers pain which really is dangerous to the horse. By masking pain, it allows the horse to do something it shouldn't be doing, risking further injury.

Butes ability to mask pain is much less than oxy. It is like aspirin in people. The chances of further injury is much less than with Oxy. 

Of COURSE the oxy will enter the bloodstream. How else will it be carried through the body to the brain to mask the pain?

BTW, Oxy does not reduce lameness, per se. It reduces the reaction to the lameness. It does absolutely nothing to help reduce or repair what is creating the lameness the way Bute does.

I think this is a TERRIBLE trade. Regardless of the side effects, which only becomes a problem if a person uses bute for an extended period of time, it at least helps the HORSE. Oxy mostly helps the RIDERS do something they shouldn't. If all you are after is quick pain relief to help the horse cope with an injury, Oxy is fine. But, it does not replace bute, IMO.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

irmaklepper said:


> Appreciate the dialogue.
> Vicki - do a quick google search of 'peripheral opioid receptors'
> Exciting study is being done and patches being developed to directly treat pain via these receptors whilst avoiding the systemic system.
> Similarly Natisha, these patches will reduce abuse of opioid tablets as they can't enter the blood stream and are very difficult to extract to abuse.
> ...


You don't seem to understand how patches work. The Oxy patch is only in the testing stages for humans (are we guinea pigging our horses?). This is from the company who is making the patches (bold is mine).....


> “The ability to reach therapeutic oxycodone *plasma concentrations* from a transdermal patch is a major achievement,* and the sustained blood levels *of this drug appear very suitable for chronic pain management,” said Professor Guy Ludbrook, Principal Investigator for the study and Head of Discipline, Anaesthesia & Intensive Care, at the Royal Adelaide Hospital. “After a dose of oral oxycodone pain relief is provided for only a matter of hours. The use of Phosphagenics’ oxycodone patch may provide sustained drug delivery for a matter of days, thus removing some of the peaks and troughs of pain relief associated with oral treatment.”
> Phosphagenics’ TPM™ delivery system is capable of topically delivering small molecules, such as opioids and large molecules such as insulin, into the blood circulation..........


Positive Results From Phase 1b Study Of Phosphagenics? Transdermal Oxycodone Patch - Drugs.com MedNews

So, you can see it is IN the bloodstream. The difference between the patch and the pills is the length of time the drug works and it works at consistent levels.

The company says nothing about any lessened addiction using these patches. The primitive patches that are being used now are very much being used by addicted people. I've seen people with so many nicotine patches on that they end up overdosing on nicotine.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> In showing, horses that have been Hobdayed are banned.


What is Hobdayed?

As for the Bute ban, they're throwing the baby out with the bath water.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

They already have NSAID's for use in horses that are better and safer than Bute - things like Previcox and in the UK Danilon (similar to Ibuprofen) is used a lot and proving to be safer than Bute. Its also possible to buy a topical NSAID cream like Surpass which works without the need to go through the digestive system
I can see all sorts of black market problem arising out of the use of an opiate cream or patch - there's already enough problems with various horse meds being used by addicts so why produce any more?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Hobday operation
Whistling and roaring in horses


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

I can see the patch being problematic for staying on:shock:. Horses have hair,the area would have to be kept cleanly shaved for the patch to adhere & stay on properly to be effective. Patches are meant to stay on for a couple days before being changed out with a new one, you should also have Rotation of application sites:-(. I for one think there is much better alternative medications:wink:


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

For something topical, the patch might work (like a nasty gash) but you cant get rid of bute. How would you take the pain away from a colic surgery? Not with a patch i can guarantee. And then you would need a SEPARATE anti inflammatory, sooo now we are giving the horses two drugs instead of one. 

The only reason i can see that they are trying to weed out bute is so horses can be deemed safe for human consumption. Bute stays in the horse and does horrible things to the human brain. they get rid of bute, then they can say the horses are safe to eat..


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Hobday operation
> Whistling and roaring in horses


WELL! :shock: Learn somethin' ever'day! :lol: I'd never heard of a Hobday operation. For that matter, I don't think I've ever known a Roarer (is that what we used to call Windbroke?) horse.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

RE: bute staying in the horse; no one really knows as no real studies have been done. Funny no one objects to it being in their cattle.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

squirrelfood said:


> RE: bute staying in the horse; no one really knows as no real studies have been done. Funny no one objects to it being in their cattle.


Maybe that is because Bute is banned for use in dairy and food cattle. There was a big stink, not long ago, when bute was found in some show cattle.

Do people still sneak it in their stock? No doubt.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

squirrelfood said:


> RE: bute staying in the horse; no one really knows as no real studies have been done. Funny no one objects to it being in their cattle.


That's how dipryrone got banned. It was never recommended for cattle and was really useful for horses. Cattle folks kept using it on their cows (can't send a down cow to market) so eventually it got banned here in the US. I could still get it OTC in Mexico though. LOL! Don't know if they have ever lifted that silly ban or not.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

i just have to laugh at that .. Most MD's in THE USA wont prescribe oxy for long term pain use.
It simply makes you numb from the pain and does nothing else, except maybe get you addicted.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

stevenson said:


> i just have to laugh at that .. Most MD's in THE USA wont prescribe oxy for long term pain use.
> It simply makes you numb from the pain and does nothing else, except maybe get you addicted.


AND you build up a huge tolerance to the medication. Amazing to me, they prescribe huge amounts for people in pain and then, once they can't live without it, they cut 'em off because now they're addicts. And we want to do this to our horses why?


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## irmaklepper (May 24, 2014)

Alison, I appreciate the explanation, but I followed the links and had a read myself.
I think the reference you gave was for systemic patch, and it appears they have multiple, with the one recently trialled on racehorses being the non-systemic version -

_The expansion of our pain portfolio continued into February when we informed the market of the results of a preclinical topical pain study undertaken on our behalf by the University of Queensland with our TPM®/Oxycodone gel.
The study demonstrated that this product was able to reduce localised pain by topical application *without* delivering the oxycodone into the systemic circulation_


They seem to have now converted the gel into a patch.

We probably still need to reference this back to horses. 

I suppose the question is what happened to the horse pain once the patch was taken off. I could try and contact the company and ask but I doubt they would tell me, let alone reply. I might give it a go.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Doing a little reading myself I am even MORE disturbed by the topical use of Oxycodone on horses. Remember, this has no healing effects but simply masks pain. So, they are putting these patches on the cannon bones of horses that have moderate to severe shin pain to see if they can then run? WTHeck?? Why would you want a lame horse in pain to run, giving them pain killers so that the pain doesn't deter their desire to win? Pain is a way of telling a horse that something is going wrong with their body and they need to stop.


> The study was conducted on six thoroughbreds, between two and three years of age, exhibiting cannon (shin) bone soreness arising from injuries in either one or two limbs, with a patch applied to each injured limb for ten days. The shin soreness was rated as either “Moderate” or “Severe” based on universal Veterinary Lameness Scores, in which lameness was evident in circumstances when carrying weight, circling or walking on incline or hard surfaces or when the horses were at a trot.


I can't believe anyone would say this is OK, except TB owners who only see the dollar signs.



> The aim of the project was to provide localised pain relief for the horse and to allow the trainers to use the relief application* closer to race day *as Phenybutazone use must be stopped up to seven days prior to racing. Phenylbutazone has an analgesic effect and is an anti-inflammatory medication (NSAID).


So, the goal seems to be to be able to run horses whose pain levels are being covered up.

Oxycodone Patches Eliminate Pain | Sporting Post


While the idea of topical pain relief has always been a good thing for injured horses and horses in REHAB (not for addiction to oxy...lol) I think the desire to use it on working horses is a dangerous development for the racing industry.


Plus, as a person who has worked around the racing barns, I look forward to seeing a bunch of trainers and grooms walking around with their horse's patches stuck all over their own bodies.....


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

There is nothing about this that says good idea to me. And as Allison said, as someone who has worked at the track... I see grooms and trainers dipping into these patches themselves


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

squirrelfood said:


> RE: bute staying in the horse; no one really knows as no real studies have been done. Funny no one objects to it being in their cattle.


People may sneak bute into cattle but its banned worldwide in all livestock intended for human consumption
Random tests are done in slaughter yards and if an animal you've sent tests positive the fine is big enough to not make it worth doing
Traces of Bute in heavily processed horsemeat were found in the EU scandal


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

As someone who works in R&D on medicines and medical devices I can categoricaly tell you that ALL medicines are systemic, even those applied topicaly WILL end up in the blood stream. 
Topicals need as much in the way of clinical trials as tablets do!

Bute is not carcinogenic for horses, it can cause ulcers however. Short tem use is normaly fine though. banning the use of bute in horses has massive welfare implications for vet medicine.
Bute is an anti inflammatory, here is a very simple run down of how it works to reduce pain. You pull a muscle, your body produces swelling, the swelling aggrivates nerves causing pain, the bute reduces the swelling thus preventing nerves being agrivated and reducing the swelling also increases blood flow to the area increaseing the rate of healing.

Here is a very basic run down of how pain killers work:
Drug enters your system, works its way to the nerves and the pain receptors in your brain and basicly scrambles the electrical pulses between them, in doing so it also causes some side effects such as hallucinations, inability to feel anything, dizzyness, vertigo and in some cases (such as myself) the loss of the autonomous reflexes (such as control of the bladder and th diaphragm, the latter being pertiularly scarey as it means I actualy have to force myself to breathe). It does nothing to help the initial cause of the problem, it does not promote healing or help reduce anti-inflammatories it simply prevents pain signals reaching the pain reeptors in your brain.

Topical applications of pain killers work by over coming the skin barrier and penetrating the skin to the level of the nerves and scrambling the nerve signals first there and then on to the brain where they further scramble the impulses as they reach the pain receptors. The advantage of this is that the dose can be significantly lower than oral medications, (as they work on the site of pain) reducing the side effects and the drugs work quicker. the down side is that penetrating the skin barrier to that depth is difficult and not all drugs are suitable for topical application given the technology we have now as we simply cannot get them through the skin barrier without breaking down the very chemicals that form the drug.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Agreed ^. All i see is them being able to run the race horses further into the ground, then legally send them off to slaughter because they have no bute in them. Clever if not disturbing and morally wrong. The type of test they did further proves it. Who runs a lame horse? something like a stone bruise or mild swelling and bruising from a small kick, fine but that would not be enough to lame a horse that bad anyway. Anyone else foresee this being used for soring? they could cause deep pain and keep the top layer "numb" so they pass the pain test...

I may have a cynical outlook with this drug but i see nothing that says "this is a breakthrough in vet medicine that will help heal horses!" It says "Lets numb then and ruin them!"


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

KigerQueen said:


> Agreed ^. All i see is them being able to run the race horses further into the ground, then legally send them off to slaughter because they have no bute in them. Clever if not disturbing and morally wrong. The type of test they did further proves it. Who runs a lame horse? something like a stone bruise or mild swelling and bruising from a small kick, fine but that would not be enough to lame a horse that bad anyway. Anyone else foresee this being used for soring? they could cause deep pain and keep the top layer "numb" so they pass the pain test...
> 
> I may have a cynical outlook with this drug but i see nothing that says "this is a breakthrough in vet medicine that will help heal horses!" It says "Lets numb then and ruin them!"


My gut reaction to it is that it's another way to cheat and ruin a good horse.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> WELL! :shock: Learn somethin' ever'day! :lol: I'd never heard of a Hobday operation. For that matter, I don't think I've ever known a Roarer (is that what we used to call Windbroke?) horse.


I believe a roarer is a term used for a horse with some sort of extra tissue in the throat or a partially paralyzed larynx which causes a roaring noise.
Windbroke refers to a horse with heaves/COPD.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

This is only in Australia as far as I can see and I'm sure is linked to the growing horse meat industry there
Eliminating bute from use in all horses would make it easier to get them into the food chain, drugs that are commonly used in human treatment will be easier to pass through trials, Bute is only used for humans in extreme cases where all other medications have failed and in the US its not allowed at all for use on humans


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## irmaklepper (May 24, 2014)

Ok. To clarify. I myself linked the 2 topics together, that is the opioid patch and bute banning.
I have done some more research.
The trial as mentioned is a proof of concept trial. That means it is designed to show the possibility of efficacy for further research. I suspect cannon soreness was used as it is easier to quantify and assess for research analysis.
The company release mentions it is being developed for companion animals (as well as horses and even farm animals).
I can imagine that any trial requires ethics approval and I can also imagine these horses would not have been in racing mode or close to it.
They are testing a non-systemic pain killer for animals. A non-systemic patch is being designed to lessen abuse, that is you can't get a 'high' from it.
If you don't believe in it then I suggest you go to your medicine cabinet and throw away all your Panadol or codeine tablets.
Animals need pain relief just like humans.


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

irmaklepper said:


> They are testing a non-systemic pain killer for animals. A non-systemic patch is being designed to lessen abuse, that is you can't get a 'high' from it.
> If you don't believe in it then I suggest you go to your medicine cabinet and throw away all your Panadol or codeine tablets.
> Animals need pain relief just like humans.


When used as directed, no one will get high from it. When used not as directed (chewed, swallowed, etc) that will not be the case. Unfortunately humans are endlessly creative when it comes to using and abusing drugs. 

It's not that folks don't believe in pain control for animals. We just also believe in human's selfishness and willingness to abuse and overuse animals to make a quick buck by any means necessary and at the expense of the animal's health. And any medication that masks pain effectively makes this easier.

And then, of course, there is the fact that an anti-inflammatory (Bute) is a different medication entirely from opioids like Oxy that only kill the sensation of pain without changing the inflammatory processes that are contributing to pain, healing, damage and joint, bone, and blood flow changes. Having more options is good, but getting rid of Bute is LESS options, which is not good.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

What happens when a horse colics? Are we supposed to stick patches over their entire barrel? Bute is an anti-inflammatory, that's an important quality when it comes to treating quite a few things.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

irmaklepper said:


> If you don't believe in it then I suggest you go to your medicine cabinet and throw away all your Panadol or codeine tablets.
> Animals need pain relief just like humans.


Just fyi, I don't have ANY Panadol or codeine or Fentanyl or anything like that in my medicine chest. I rely on Tylenol and Motrin for pain relief and it would take a whole lot of pain before I would go to the Dr. to ask for controlled substances, whether tablet, capsule, injectable or patch. Actually.....further, I don't know anyone who has that kind of stuff routinely in their drug cabinet. 

For horse pain relief, I keep Banamine and I MAY have a tube of bute paste in the fridge. That's a big maybe though, it's not even one I keep routinely.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

SullysRider said:


> What happens when a horse colics? Are we supposed to stick patches over their entire barrel? Bute is an anti-inflammatory, that's an important quality when it comes to treating quite a few things.


Total brain fart, was thinking of Banamine.


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## irmaklepper (May 24, 2014)

Ok. Thanks.
But back to bute. People seem to be differentiating a pain blocker as a masker of pain and bute (or an anti-inflammatory) as a cure for pain.
Make no mistake, bute is not a healer. It is a remover of inflammation. Inflammation is a consequence of injury, a necessary reaction to allow healing. Residual toxins from the process cause pain.
So bute, doesn't 'heal' it removes inflammatory toxins. The body heals.

Being in pain perpetuates pain.

Pain produces a physiological stress response that includes increased heart and breathing rates to facilitate the increasing demands of oxygen and other nutrients to vital organs. Failure to relieve pain produces a prolonged stress state, which can result in harmful multisystem effects. 

Understanding the physiological effects - PubMed Mobile

You need to control pain. Anti-inflammatories can help but have more side effects, bute, potentially dangerous ones.

Controlling pain in animals, just like in humans, is an important part of animal welfare.


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## irmaklepper (May 24, 2014)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Just fyi, I don't have ANY Panadol or codeine or Fentanyl or anything like that in my medicine chest. I rely on Tylenol and Motrin for pain relief and it would take a whole lot of pain before I would go to the Dr. to ask for controlled substances, whether tablet, capsule, injectable or patch. Actually.....further, I don't know anyone who has that kind of stuff routinely in their drug cabinet.
> 
> For horse pain relief, I keep Banamine and I MAY have a tube of bute paste in the fridge. That's a big maybe though, it's not even one I keep routinely.





Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Just fyi, I don't have ANY Panadol or codeine or Fentanyl or anything like that in my medicine chest. I rely on Tylenol and Motrin for pain relief and it would take a whole lot of pain before I would go to the Dr. to ask for controlled substances


Firstly Tylenol is Panadol (paracetamol). The point I'm trying to make is if people are dead against a pain blocker, then they shouldn't use it either at any level.
My previous post highlighted why pain is important to control in healing, due to its negative physiological response, and of course to ease suffering.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Inflammation causes more damage. If you are saying swelling and inflammation is good, then people should not be given anything for when their throats swell shut...

I dont use pain medications. I have aspirin and ibuprofen in my house, and that us used by pparents. That is it. I have been given oxycodone and ill tell you what it did for me. Nothing. Did nothing for my migraine, i did not get high, it did me the same amount of good as drinking a glass of water. Vicodin, i'll be loopy for 20 min then nothing. I have more vitamins and herbs than any "medicines" in my house because we can manage our own pain and NOT rely on drugs. For my horse, unless its bad, she get stall rest. The only time she needed bute was when she whacked her leg hard kicking at the fence and had a locking stifle issue on top of it. It took DOWN the leg swelling so that she could walk, and walking helped her locking stifle. She got 2 doses and was fine and healed within 4 days. 

Just like why people should not get vicodin all the time, horses should not get bute. Here in arizona its a controlled substance, meaning i have to get it FROM my vet, and if they say no im SOL. All i see is this making it easier to slaughter the horses for people to eat. Thats it. The patch will be abused. If they can use it on Racehorses with leg pain they will. How would they test for it in a drug test? It would make it easier to race lame horses! They can clean the spot it was on and the levels will be so low in the blood it will not get pinged in the test. (i could be wrong but thats what it sounds like).


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

irmaklepper said:


> Firstly Tylenol is Panadol (paracetamol). The point I'm trying to make is if people are dead against a pain blocker, then they shouldn't use it either at any level.
> My previous post highlighted why pain is important to control in healing, due to its negative physiological response, and of course to ease suffering.


I'm not against pain relief, which is why I'm not against bute. I feel throwing the bute out is throwing away a perfectly good tool in the arsenal. IF the horse needed Oxy, I'd be willing to give it to him, I don't see any reason to keep an animal in pain. I'm just not willing to throw away a perfectly good drug, like I mentioned earlier, dipyrone. That one was taken away from horses so cattle wouldn't use it. What's going to happen when they start finding dead grooms who made oxy tea from the horse patches? Or finding Oxy in cattle? I just think we're jumping on things too quickly without taking time to look at every angle.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

I've never used bute all that much anyway. Really hard to get out here in the sticks. And since my vet told me how to use ibuprofrin and advil, both of which are cheaper anyway, and actually work......


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

irmaklepper said:


> Ok. Thanks.
> But back to bute. People seem to be differentiating a pain blocker as a masker of pain and bute (or an anti-inflammatory) as a cure for pain.
> Make no mistake, bute is not a healer. It is a remover of inflammation. Inflammation is a consequence of injury, a necessary reaction to allow healing. Residual toxins from the process cause pain.
> So bute, doesn't 'heal' it removes inflammatory toxins. The body heals.


HOLY CATFISH!!

Do you not see that lessening inflammation IS helping to heal? That is extremely important when a horse is injured, just as taking NSAIDS is for US!



> Being in pain perpetuates pain.


Lessening inflammation lessens pain. What do you not get about that?



> Pain produces a physiological stress response that includes increased heart and breathing rates to facilitate the increasing demands of oxygen and other nutrients to vital organs. Failure to relieve pain produces a prolonged stress state, which can result in harmful multisystem effects.


Again, an anti-inflammatory drug breaks the pain cycle. 



> Understanding the physiological effects - PubMed Mobile
> 
> You need to control pain. Anti-inflammatories can help but have more side effects, bute, potentially dangerous ones.
> 
> Controlling pain in animals, just like in humans, is an important part of animal welfare.


Controlling the inflammation is the FIRST step in controlling pain. Yes, analgesics are important. But using them without attempting to fix the problem only serves to FOOL the horse into thinking they are fine.....risking further injury. I just don't understand how you don't understand this. Both NSAIDS and pain killers are important. If I were given the choice of only one, I would take the NSAID.


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## irmaklepper (May 24, 2014)

Alison, inflammation is normal, in fact necessary. Without it you won't heal. 
Inflammation, or more so it's residual toxins, irritates nerve endings causing pain.
It is a pain killer by reducing inflammation.
The body takes care of healing. The body will heal with time and rest.
Does anti-inflammatories or any legal drug (not including anabolic steroids) speed the rate of healing? No. A connective tissue injury will take 6 weeks to heel with or without medication if proper care is given.

It's all about pain management.

How sure are you Alison?

Refer to this article and many more.

NSAIDs: Why We Do Not Recommend Them | Caring Medical


_The following statement comes from a well-known sports medicine book that has gone through five printings. “In spite of the widespread use of NSAIDs there is no convincing evidence as to their effectiveness in the treatment of acute soft tissue injuries.” (Bruckner, P. Clinical Sports Medicine. New York City, NY: McGraw-Hill Book Company, 1995, pp. 105-109.)

This is a true statement, but definitely not strong enough. More appropriate would be something like, –In spite of the widespread use of NSAIDs there is substantial evidence that they hamper soft tissue healing.–
NSAIDs have been shown to delay and hamper the healing in all the soft tissues, including muscles, ligaments, tendons, and cartilage. Anti-inflammatories can delay healing and delay it significantly, even in muscles with their tremendous blood supply. In one study on muscle strains, Piroxicam essentially wiped out the entire inflammatory proliferative phase of healing (days 0-4). At day two there were essentially no macrophages (cells that clean up the area) in the area and by day four after the muscle strain, there was very little muscle regeneration compared to the normal healing process. The muscle strength at this time was only about 40 percent of normal.(Greene, J. Cost-conscious prescribing of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs for adults with arthritis. Archives of Internal Medicine. 1992; 152:1995-2002.)
The authors concluded that NSAIDs might delay muscle regeneration, when their study did in fact show delayed muscle healing. But you know politics…

_

Not as straight forward as you think Alison, but interesting topic of conversation none the less.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

There is no such thing as a non systemic drug! By it's very definition a drug is systemic!

FYI I have no codeine based substances in the house at all and will not take them even when in hospital due to the horrific side effects I suffer from them! Paracetamol is the strongest thing I can take and even then I get side effects.

I am in constant pain due to old riding injurys and I work in developing analgesic drugs (amongst other things), I have lots of anti inflammatorys round the house like ibuprofen, naproxen, diclofenac etc

Let's just look at common side effects for anti inflammatories vs pain killers;
Anti inflammatories (NSAIDs such as ibuprofen)
Gastric ulcers (in humans and animals) 
diarrhoea 
Indigestion
Nausea 
A worstening of asthma symptoms 

Pain killers (such as codiene based drugs);
Addiction
Drowsiness (most say don't drive after taking)
Suppression of autonomous reflexes ( breathing, heart, bladder control and body temperature, most common being body temp and breathing)
Liver & kidney damage
Rash
Drop in blood pressure
Dizzy ness 
Mood changes
Blurry vision

Note this is not an exhaustive list it is a rundown of the MOST COMMON side effects this does not Include the rare side effects but given the above list I'll take an upset tummy of NSAIDs over the side effects of pain killers any day
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Removing inflammation is important in healing! It's why cold hosing tendon issues in horses is so important and who we ice muscle strains (athletes going so far as to have ice baths)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZaneyZanne123 (Nov 9, 2013)

SullysRider said:


> Total brain fart, was thinking of Banamine.


 I kind of thought you meant Banamine. I suffer from brain farts also, getting worse as I get older. Pain in the **** arent they?
No worries.


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## ZaneyZanne123 (Nov 9, 2013)

Codien does absolutly nothing for me even at higher doses. I simply do not react to it or my body metabolizes it to fast to do any good. I dont know but when I am prescribed something with codein I simply throw the presript away for I know its useless for me to waste my money on. How do ppl get addicted to it? Perhaps I need to snort it to get the effects. Inflammation can be good in some respect but not so in others. I beleive its severity in the two that makes the difference. Some inflammation triggers healing response but in some cases based on how traumatized the tissue affected is, inflamation of higher severity can be a hinderance. 

Bute is to useful in so many respects but like everything else it needs to be used properly. Long term in asprin can cause just as much digestive problems but you dont hear many saying to much about it. Long term use of higher doses of asprin can cause ulcers and other stomach problems.......one of the reason why it should be taken with food. Oral bute should be given prior to feeding to lessen the damaging effects to the stomach lining but again long term use is another issue. Oxycondone vs bute. I think MUCH MORE research needs to be done esp in long term effects.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Zaney I'm the opposite to you, even half a small dose leaves me with total loss of sensation I cannot even feel some one touching me or me touching anything, 
The normal dose of cocodamol used to treat a headache in most people suppresses my autonomous reflexes and puts me in hospital as I struggle to breathe
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZaneyZanne123 (Nov 9, 2013)

Faye: Sounds like you have a sensitivity to it. Hope your Drs know that you dont tolerate it very well. 

I am a problem child to medicate, I metabolize meds in odd manners and those that should knock out a moose simply have no effect on me and vise versa. Some meds that one should ot have any odd reactions to I react weirdly. Dr.s get exasperated with me because of it so when we find one that works, we stick with it. I also develope resistance to meds often thus warrenting them useless.

I took 1/4 gram of bute one time to kill a bad headache I had when I worked on a TB farm several years ago (i was desperate). I felt nothing and the world could have expolded for all I cared. Got rid of the head ache also. I havent done that since, kind of weird.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I haven't used Bute for years - there are so many NSAID's on the market now that are less likely to cause ulcers but are as or more effective and don't cost substantially more


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

irmaklepper said:


> Alison, inflammation is normal, in fact necessary. Without it you won't heal.
> Inflammation, or more so it's residual toxins, irritates nerve endings causing pain.
> It is a pain killer by reducing inflammation.
> The body takes care of healing. The body will heal with time and rest.
> ...


from a human point of view ... i have a harniated disc in my lower back (L5-S1) 

given the choice between an NSAID and a narcotic analgesic -- i would take the narcotic analgesic

i do irritate it a lot, and it does swell, and it hurts like you wouldn't believe -- unfortunately, it will never heal

but, i have to do what i have to do, and i will do what i want to do --- haven't had any hydrocodone in 2 years 

the problem with narcotic analgesics is the rate at which the body adapts to the drug --- i.e. diminishing returns --- within 2 weeks of being on 7.5/750 hydrocodone/acetomenophen it does very little, and is less effective ---- after a month of being on it, i get headaches and i get grouchy when i don't have any and the pain comes back twice as bad as it was before getting it in the first place

i imagine a horses body would adapt to it in a similar manner

basically what i am saying is that narcotic analgesics are great for short term pain management, but will never be a long term solution


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

ZaneyZanne123 said:


> Faye: Sounds like you have a sensitivity to it. Hope your Drs know that you dont tolerate it very well.
> 
> I am a problem child to medicate, I metabolize meds in odd manners and those that should knock out a moose simply have no effect on me and vise versa. Some meds that one should ot have any odd reactions to I react weirdly. Dr.s get exasperated with me because of it so when we find one that works, we stick with it. I also develope resistance to meds often thus warrenting them useless.
> 
> I took 1/4 gram of bute one time to kill a bad headache I had when I worked on a TB farm several years ago (i was desperate). I felt nothing and the world could have expolded for all I cared. Got rid of the head ache also. I havent done that since, kind of weird.


same here --- any oxycodone or hydrocodone makes me super alert and wired -- like drinking 10 cups of coffee

but give me some phenegran (anti-nausea) and i knock out hard --- once slept 24 hours straight on that stuff (upper respiratory infection)


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I find that is a fact for any medication - NSAID's or narcotics - the longer you take them the more you seem to need to take
When my back plays up the amount of NSAID's I need to take to ease it gives me stomach ulcers but Tramadol will usually fix it pretty fast although it does knock me out at quite a low dose


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

You want to know how quickly some medical offices will prescribe oxy unnecessarily?

My finger got caught in a metal door, was bleeding quite a bit (the shelter had a small first aid kit on hand thank god) and they wrapped me up and sent me to urgent care to ensure I didn't break my finger. 

The doc prescribed me oxy. Not knowing any better, I filled it, but never used the medicine after I talked to some friends when they inquired about my finger. They could have told me to take aspirin.

When my teeth were pulled, I was told to take one aspirin in the morning, and one in the evening, and to take a third if my teeth were hurting bad. Other than that, salt water and proper care while I was healing had me able to eat solids within the prescribed time. And I'm seeing people getting oxy or other drugs for similar surgeries.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I find that is a fact for any medication - NSAID's or narcotics - the longer you take them the more you seem to need to take
> When my back plays up the amount of NSAID's I need to take to ease it gives me stomach ulcers but Tramadol will usually fix it pretty fast although it does knock me out at quite a low dose


i think you get more longevity out of NSAIDS than narcotics --- i can take ibuprofin for a longer period than oxy and still get about the same affect


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I have had two major surgeries on one hand and need one on the other. When I say major, this is what it looked like after ONE of them. Every one of my fingers have been flayed open exposing all the tendons.




I was prescribed the big guns for these operations. I would take them for two days and then switch to NSAIDS. I am terrified of how easy it is to be addicted to these drugs and would rather feel some pain than risk it. I have just seen too many GOOD people whose lives were ruined by a doctor treating regular injuries.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Jmike... you are so correct on that. having lower back issues as well as my knee,elbow and foot
motrin 800 mg seems to work. My md's rarely give narcotics, when i cannot walk or sleep they will give a 2 week supply. best thing is mild exercise, and swimming.. I guess i should get rid of half these horses, I may be able to afford a pool !


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Allison Finch.. all i can say is.. OUCH.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

stevenson said:


> Jmike... you are so correct on that. having lower back issues as well as my knee,elbow and foot
> motrin 800 mg seems to work. My md's rarely give narcotics, when i cannot walk or sleep they will give a 2 week supply. best thing is mild exercise, and swimming.. I guess i should get rid of half these horses, I may be able to afford a pool !


"motrin 800" .... army?

stretching is wonderful, and any core strengthening exercises (situps, pushups, planking, squatting) 

i imagine horses would react the same way


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

I love my Ranger Candy too.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

irmaklepper said:


> Alison, inflammation is normal, in fact necessary. Without it you won't heal.
> Inflammation, or more so it's residual toxins, irritates nerve endings causing pain.
> It is a pain killer by reducing inflammation.
> The body takes care of healing. The body will heal with time and rest.
> ...


So, what do you do to treat a horse with acute laminitis when you may only have hours before permanent, irreversible damage is done to the hoof?


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## ZaneyZanne123 (Nov 9, 2013)

Allison Finch said:


> I have had two major surgeries on one hand and need one on the other. When I say major, this is what it looked like after ONE of them. Every one of my fingers have been flayed open exposing all the tendons.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well that got a big OUCH from me. I hope all healed well.



Some have mentioned that most narcotics begin to lose thier effects over a period of time (long term)......that is why abusers have to keep increasing the "dose" to get that high they are looking for. They end up OD-ing on the stuf and dying from it. I can see some dill hole with out the brain God gave a gopher trying to get that "high" from the oxy-patches either by trying to chew them or heck even trying to "disolve" the drug from the patch. There is no limit what an abuser/addict would go to, to get a high going.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Initialy swelling triggers the healing process, but once it is triggered the swelling does nothing but hinder healing and infact can cause some very nasty conditions the least of which is infection!
Swelling if not treated can lead to nerve and tissue death!

It was uncontrolled swelling that made a mess of my knee! I had a massive fall from a horse, bashed my head hard and twisted my knee. At the time my knee injury was the least of my worrys, it was only slightly sore and slightly swollen, I'm not talking about massive amounts of swelling either, just swelling that I didnt do anything about so it hung around for a good while.

the swelling permanantly damaged the nerves in the surface of my skin and now my knee feels like someone is touching it through water all the time!


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