# anxiety when leaving pasture mate



## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

eeboch said:


> Hi I am new to the site. I recently just brought my horse home from boarding, we got him a pasture mate (miniature donkey) and they get along great. When I take them away from each other my horse literally loses it. he just screams, runs and carries on. I tried to make sure when I took the donkey out my horse could see him, that didn't work. I tried taking the horse out and having my husband take the donkey with us, that works as long as my horse can see him at all times. My issue is that I trail ride and obviously he is going to have to be away from the donkey. any suggestions? thanks


The issue is your horse does not want to leave his herd. Horse no longer become herd bound when you become one of his buddies in the herd. Our horses can go out on their own without any other horses because they know that I am the Alpha head of the herd so they don't worry about leaving buddies behind. Ironically enough our one mare is so bound to hubby and I that she starts panicking if we come out of sight. You could take all horses away, but her humans? and the world comes to an end. 

Start spending with him on his own away from his friend. Doesn't have and shouldn't be work related time. It needs to be enjoyable for him as he learns and realizes that you are his buddy when you are out alone. Take him for walks on your own and give him a brushing, or let him graze. Bring a book and let him adjust to the idea that it's how the new normal is. It's going to take time, but you can correct that. 

It's the first thing I teach our foals. I find it takes 10 times longer to teach it in an older horse than it does with foals. When they are young, they learn quickly what the norm is.


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## eeboch (May 2, 2018)

my2geldings said:


> The issue is your horse does not want to leave his herd. Horse no longer become herd bound when you become one of his buddies in the herd. Our horses can go out on their own without any other horses because they know that I am the Alpha head of the herd so they don't worry about leaving buddies behind. Ironically enough our one mare is so bound to hubby and I that she starts panicking if we come out of sight. You could take all horses away, but her humans? and the world comes to an end.
> 
> Start spending with him on his own away from his friend. Doesn't have and shouldn't be work related time. It needs to be enjoyable for him as he learns and realizes that you are his buddy when you are out alone. Take him for walks on your own and give him a brushing, or let him graze. Bring a book and let him adjust to the idea that it's how the new normal is. It's going to take time, but you can correct that.
> 
> It's the first thing I teach our foals. I find it takes 10 times longer to teach it in an older horse than it does with foals. When they are young, they learn quickly what the norm is.




Thank you I will try that today when I get home.


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## 15 hands (Apr 18, 2018)

Pressure/release. Make him work when he's by the donkey - this is the pressure. Trot him in small circles by the donkey several times. Then casually walk him away from the donkey in increasingly far distances and let him walk slow and rest. This is the release. When he gets antsy to be by his friend, take him back and increase the pressure again. Repeat this over and over. He will soon find that he gets his release by being away from the donkey and will be happy there.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

15 hands said:


> Pressure/release. Make him work when he's by the donkey - this is the pressure. Trot him in small circles by the donkey several times. Then casually walk him away from the donkey in increasingly far distances and let him walk slow and rest. This is the release. When he gets antsy to be by his friend, take him back and increase the pressure again. Repeat this over and over. He will soon find that he gets his release by being away from the donkey and will be happy there.


That's not how you create happiness. He'll suck it up, but he'll only be happy if he finds security and comfort in the situation he finds himself it.

How about this: Suppose you are afraid of spiders, or even just mildly anxious about their presence. There's one sitting on the wall right behind you, but whenever you try to get away from your spot, I'll put pressure on you - I'll yell in your face and have you drop and give me 20. How long until you'll be "happy" with that spider and consider it a pleasant companion?


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

15 hands said:


> Pressure/release. Make him work when he's by the donkey - this is the pressure. Trot him in small circles by the donkey several times. Then casually walk him away from the donkey in increasingly far distances and let him walk slow and rest. This is the release. When he gets antsy to be by his friend, take him back and increase the pressure again. Repeat this over and over. He will soon find that he gets his release by being away from the donkey and will be happy there.


This might work for some animals, but it's not a 'cure all'. I have one that would happily work until he fell over dead as long as he was next to his herdmates. This made him worse, not better. 

Gradually increasing separation distance and time has worked wonders. My horse feared leaving the other horses not just because he felt they were a safety net, but because of his past abuses, I think he associated being by himself with pain and fear. We started out only a few feet away and I kept his attention on me and once he relaxed, put him back. Some days we got farther than others-- go to the point where the horse notices the other is not there, but not so far that he loses his mind completely. I can now take mine out alone and while he still gets a little anxious, it is much better and he is improving each time. When another horse is removed, he no longer tries to go through the fence-- just runs back and forth a few times then goes back to grazing. Huge improvement.


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## 15 hands (Apr 18, 2018)

Say what you want, that is a tried and true method. Is it 100%? No, i don't know of any method that is. But it IS proven to work.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

15 hands said:


> Say what you want, that is a tried and true method. Is it 100%? No, i don't know of any method that is. But it IS proven to work.


Do not confuse "happiness" with "learned helplessness".


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

^ Yeah, that. 

On a horse that simply veers over by the gate when you ride in the arena, or one who will drift toward his buddies out on a ride, this can work. On a horse who is frantic when taken from his herdmates/barn, this makes it worse. It's one of those exercises promoted by a couple of the big name trainers that fails to take into account why the horse doesn't want to leave. If it's because he associates his barn/buddies with no work, then yeah, it can help. If he associates his barn/buddies with safety, then it only makes things worse.


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## 15 hands (Apr 18, 2018)

mmshiro said:


> Do not confuse "happiness" with "learned helplessness".


Happiness is your horse learning that you are his safe space, and more importantly his leader. Do not confuse my use of the word "pressure" with "pain". You are misconstruing what I am saying. Pressure/release drills are used by most all trainers out there. The one I pointed out in my initial post is simply one of them. 

Are you saying this training method is flawed and wrong? 
https://www.google.com/search?q=cur...7.5850j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#kpvalbx=1

I can go on linking hundreds of other videos by other notable trainers using the exact same method.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

eeboch said:


> Hi I am new to the site. I recently just brought my horse home from boarding, we got him a pasture mate (miniature donkey) and they get along great. When I take them away from each other my horse literally loses it. he just screams, runs and carries on. I tried to make sure when I took the donkey out my horse could see him, that didn't work. I tried taking the horse out and having my husband take the donkey with us, that works as long as my horse can see him at all times. My issue is that I trail ride and obviously he is going to have to be away from the donkey. any suggestions? thanks


Your horse is herd bound (or buddy sour). It will take time, some longer than others, but just take him out and ride him. Let him, or the other one scream. Who cares. 

Now, with that said, if you think the one you are leaving behind will run through the fence or will physically hurt themselves because they are so panicked, then you will need to make sure you leave them in a safe corral or paddock where they cannot hurt themselves while you ride the other one. 

But, if you don't think that will happen, then ride on. Might only take a few days -- might take a few months -- depends on the horse. But they will eventually get over it. *Just go ride.*


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

15 hands said:


> Happiness is your horse learning that you are his safe space, and more importantly his leader. Do not confuse my use of the word "pressure" with "pain". You are misconstruing what I am saying. Pressure/release drills are used by most all trainers out there. The one I pointed out in my initial post is simply one of them.
> 
> Are you saying this training method is flawed and wrong?
> https://www.google.com/search?q=cur...7.5850j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#kpvalbx=1
> ...


Your horse won't learn you are his safe space with this. Far from it. There's a difference between pressure/release and working a scared horse down until he gives up. On a dead-headed stock horse who wants to get out of work, it can be effective. On anything with some fire, it can backfire completely, especially if the horse is anxious and not just lazy. So what do you think one should do on a horse who would rather work himself to death next to his buddies rather than relax away from them? 

I asked CA this at a clinic, and several others chimed in that it didn't work for their horses either, and he ignored the question...

Like I said earlier-- if the horses wants to go back to his friends because he associates them with getting out of work, then yes. This works. If he wants to go back to his friends because he is fearful and anxious away from them, this will frequently make it worse. You have to address the fear first, or you won't get anywhere. Clinton Anderson's methods work on disrespectful horses, but he also assumes all horses are disrespectful. When they're not, his methods overface them and can ruin a horse. Seen it happen. Use some ideas from trainers, yes, but use common sense, too. Don't just drink the kool-aid and assume all horses respond the same way.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

My big guy is absolutely an anxious horse and the technique described by 15 Hands works perfectly with him. The key is to turn around BEFORE he freaks out, work by the buddy, walk out again, a little bit farther, and repeat as necessary. I have also used the method of leading the anxious horse away and letting him graze out of sight of his buddy, which also works. Either way the key is to have the patience not to overwhelm the anxious horse and end up in a wreck.

If Smilie were still with us she would say tie the two horses out of sight of each other and let them scream until they get over it.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

Yay to separation anxiety! I have dealt with this with many different species of animals. Either 1. your pet doesn't trust you or 2. they have never had to deal with separation anxiety before and don't know how to cope and obviously cases that are a combination of both. You can't really use the pressure and release on some animals in the same way you can horses. I can't just work a dog outside and make that him be OK with me leaving the house for 10 minutes, for example. So in order for a pet to trust you there must be some sort of consistency. In your case your horse must eventually learn that 1. he will always return home (they don't necessarily know this even if we do) and 2. you've got some empathy about how he feels and adjust your approach accordingly which will help build trust. How do you reassure a dog that it's OK to be alone? (Without crate training!). Well first you leave for 10 seconds and return. Then 20. Then 30. Every time you return you reward him. Training sessions should rarely be more than half hour at MAX, less with young or inexperienced animals. When I first took my horse out on the trail I would walk her in hand for 5 minutes, then come home. Then 10. Then 15. Then the entire trail and back. She learned that she WILL come back home eventually no matter how far we went. Now I don't think that I need to do that with every trail obviously or that I need to test run a dog for 5 hours... because once they learn the outcome is the same they have now learned to cope. 

You might walk 5 minutes one day and barely manage 10 steps the next. Always reward the TRY. If you make a fuss "BUT YOU WENT THE ENTIRE TRAIL YESTERDAY WHY NOT TODAY?!?!?!?!!?" And get upset (which I recently saw myself at another yard) the horse will associate: being away = stress/MISERY. You can undo weeks of training with just a single moment of losing your patience. My motto is: "take the time now so you don't have to later". Eg, take the year it will take to get over an issue and have several years after with none. Vs people who put up with crappy behaviour because it's easier than taking time off to deal with it.

Good luck!


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

15 hands said:


> Happiness is your horse learning that you are his safe space, and more importantly his leader. Do not confuse my use of the word "pressure" with "pain". You are misconstruing what I am saying. Pressure/release drills are used by most all trainers out there. The one I pointed out in my initial post is simply one of them.
> 
> Are you saying this training method is flawed and wrong?
> https://www.google.com/search?q=cur...7.5850j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#kpvalbx=1
> ...


You should also make sure that you don't look at every problem as a nail, because your hammer is your favorite tool.

Why is it that you cannot teach your horse that you are a reliable leader without associating his herd buddy's company (and yours) with misery (not pain)?


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Joel Reiter said:


> My big guy is absolutely an anxious horse and the technique described by 15 Hands works perfectly with him. The key is to turn around BEFORE he freaks out, work by the buddy, walk out again, a little bit farther, and repeat as necessary. I have also used the method of leading the anxious horse away and letting him graze out of sight of his buddy, which also works. Either way the key is to have the patience not to overwhelm the anxious horse and end up in a wreck.
> 
> If Smilie were still with us she would say tie the two horses out of sight of each other and let them scream until they get over it.


What about the horse that freaks out 10' away from his friends, and is more than happy to work his little tail off next to them if the alternative was being away? One of mine is like this. The above method would have backfired completely. A 'trainer' thought this would work on a little Arab he was training, and even when the mare was lathered, trembling, and heaving in exhaustion, she chose to be back by her herdmates working to catching her breath 10' away-- the more she was worked next to the fence, the faster she rushed back toward it to go back to work when offered her rest as her stress increased. The mare literally collapsed rather than willingly move a few feet away from her friends. What did she learn from this exercise? Only that humans are stressful and it reinforced her anxiety and herdbound issues, not helped them.

What did work for her? Spending time with her and teaching her that people weren't always stressful, and using her attachment to her herdmates as a reward when she did well. When she relaxed, even a little, she got to go back to them-- look for small things-- licking and chewing, a deep breath. The next time, she was relaxed a little longer and she got to go back. Then she walked out of sight of them behind the barn and got to graze a bit on the leadrope. When she settled and didn't dance around and call, and took a few bites of grass, she got to go back. It took about three weeks before she would happily go out alone because she knew she would get to go back eventually, and to see her brain switch from 'riding is stressful' to 'oh, I like this!' was nice to see.


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## 15 hands (Apr 18, 2018)

mmshiro said:


> You should also make sure that you don't look at every problem as a nail, because your hammer is your favorite tool.
> 
> Why is it that you cannot teach your horse that you are a reliable leader without associating his herd buddy's company (and yours) with misery (not pain)?


Simple. Because it WORKS. It's always worked for me. And I will CONTINUE to train like this. Sorry it doesn't work for you, you must be doing something wrong.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

SilverMaple said:


> What did work for her? Spending time with her and teaching her that people weren't always stressful, and using her attachment to her herdmates as a reward when she did well.


OK, I think I understand what you are saying now. I started with the assumption that a proper training foundation was already done.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

15 hands said:


> Simple. Because it WORKS. It's always worked for me. And I will CONTINUE to train like this. Sorry it doesn't work for you, you must be doing something wrong.


There is sooo much I don't know yet about horses, but dealing with a nervous horse so I earn their trust _and_ get the job done was never a problem of mine. That's because I, like many other respondents in this thread, reward good faith effort and build on that rather than punishing physical manifestations of a state of mind the horse has no control over. I reward what the horse does for me despite being nervous, instead of punishing what the horse does because of it.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

mmshiro said:


> Why is it that you cannot teach your horse that you are a reliable leader without associating his herd buddy's company (and yours) with misery (not pain)?


If trotting my horse is "punishing" and "misery" to him, we have more to worry about than how to fix a buddy sour problem. And if you are working a horse into a lather, you're doing this wrong.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Joel Reiter said:


> If trotting my horse is "punishing" and "misery" to him, we have more to worry about than how to fix a buddy sour problem. And if you are working a horse into a lather, you're doing this wrong.


I'm confused now. Aren't you "making the wrong thing difficult"? If you aren't creating an adverse stimulus, how then are you making it "difficult" for your horse? Ostensibly, the reasoning is, "I'll get breathing privileges _away_ from my buddy, but not near him." How does that create trust in your leadership?

If "moving the horse's feet" tells the horse you are its leader, what does the added prop of the pasture buddy have to do with anything? 

You are probably confusing CA's intent, as he often uses reverse psychology on the horse: If the horse is trying to _get out of work_, you _make him work_ where he wants to be and let him relax where you want him to be. I can see how this works extremely well on a horse jigging and bouncing _on the homebound stretch_ of the trail ride. 

None of that has anything to do with dealing a horse that is genuinely anxious, because only being supportive and reassuring helps with easing anxiety.

I said it before: Just because you know how to use a hammer doesn't mean every problem you encounter is a nail.


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## 15 hands (Apr 18, 2018)

mmshiro said:


> There is sooo much I don't know yet about horses, but dealing with a nervous horse so I earn their trust _and_ get the job done was never a problem of mine. That's because I, like many other respondents in this thread, reward good faith effort and build on that rather than punishing physical manifestations of a state of mind the horse has no control over. I reward what the horse does for me despite being nervous, instead of punishing what the horse does because of it.


Punishing? You're right, you do have a lot to learn. It's called "path of least resistence" and that is a natural trait horses will always lean toward. Make what you want them to do easy and what they want to do hard. The horse will always gravitate to and take the easy route. Horses, given the opportunity will always take the lazy route. They are grazers. They are lazy.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

15 hands said:


> Punishing? You're right, you do have a lot to learn. It's called "path of least resistence" and that is a natural trait horses will always lean toward. Make what you want them to do easy and what they want to do hard. The horse will always gravitate to and take the easy route. Horses, given the opportunity will always take the lazy route. They are grazers. They are lazy.


You, too, are confusing laziness and anxiety. A horse that refuses to go past a scary object is not doing so because it's trying to sneak in a rest. You must be one of the "show 'em who the boss is" brigade.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

My mare is a little bit buddy sour, but ONLY when she is the only one in the barn (if all her friends are in the field) and I go to groom her.

So, what I do is, every day (because consistency is key!) I take her out of the field, groom her in the cross-ties in the barn like I do every time, while her friends are still away in the 'field'. She thinks, why can't I be out there with my friends right now??!! Why can't I see them?
She has gotten a lot better. It takes time, she still gets a bit anxious.

When we are in the arena or working, she does not call out to them. Only in the barn. :lol:

But, just take him away from his 'buddy' each day, a little at a time, & you will see improvement. It can be done. Just takes patience & time.  Soon he will learn it is OK to be alone/with you & not his friend.

If you work on this each day, you'll see results. Just my opinion.


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## 15 hands (Apr 18, 2018)

mmshiro said:


> You, too, are confusing laziness and anxiety. A horse that refuses to go past a scary object is not doing so because it's trying to sneak in a rest. You must be one of the "show 'em who the boss is" brigade.


In situations yes. Horses don't get over their fears on their own, they need guidance and direction. I don't force them into situations they don't want to be in, I guide them. Take crossing water for example. Many horses are terrified of it because they can't see what lies under the surface, how deep it is, or if some monster is going to attack them from the depths below. Persistence, baby steps at a time, but they WILL cross that creek. 

Or you can let them turn around, give them a treat for doing the wrong thing and let them take you home.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

mmshiro said:


> You must be one of the "show 'em who the boss is" brigade.



We are teetering on the edge of becoming uncivil here when we start trying to read each other's minds.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

mmshiro said:


> None of that has anything to do with dealing a horse that is genuinely anxious, because only being supportive and reassuring helps with easing anxiety.


Clinton Anderson's method is based on progression. By the time you are under saddle your horse should not be having an anxiety attack when leaving his buddies. That doesn't mean he wouldn't rather stay with his friends than ride out alone. If he truly is bug-eyed terrified to leave, you might want to go back and fill the hole in your training.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

15 hands said:


> Punishing? You're right, you do have a lot to learn. It's called "path of least resistence" and that is a natural trait horses will always lean toward. Make what you want them to do easy and what they want to do hard. The horse will always gravitate to and take the easy route. Horses, given the opportunity will always take the lazy route. They are grazers. They are lazy.


Do most horses fit this description? Yes. Do all of them? Certainly not. I have horses, who have come leaps and bounds once they realized that I would listen to them rather than blindly assuming that they were trying to get out of work and start making them uncomfortable/applying pressure to get them to do something they were frightened of. Some horses will choose the hard route, because for them, that's easier than the one you think would be easiest. Once you realize that and get them relaxed and focused and get the fear out of them to the point where they can work with you, the problem often solves itself. Assuming a fearful horse is disrespectful or lazy is not going to help that horse learn to work with people. That will either result in a shut-down horse, or one who is now labeled 'crazy' because he's realized that when he gets anxious, the pressure gets worse and now he's even more anxious... a vicious circle.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Joel Reiter said:


> Clinton Anderson's method is based on progression. By the time you are under saddle your horse should not be having an anxiety attack when leaving his buddies. That doesn't mean he wouldn't rather stay with his friends than ride out alone. If he truly is bug-eyed terrified to leave, you might want to go back and fill the hole in your training.


CA's method also requires the ability to actually read a horse, not just assume the horse is lazy and trying to get out of work. He makes his living catering to those whose horses actually do have their number, but not all horses are like this. Unfortunately, many people who think he's the messiah of horse training and that his way is the only way and always works are out there using it on every horse, and that's not the way the world works. It's getting to the point that Parelli was at 20 years ago-- saying your horse was Parelli-trained would send most people running the opposite direction. We had a similar discussion on a FB topic a week ago, and the amount of people out there who had a horse experience a set-back due to CA-style training was pretty high, especially among those who were not riding Quarter Horses and Paints and draft-type horses. TB's, Saddlebreds, Pasos, Arabs, etc. seem to respond better to a less heavy-handed approach that has a little more finesse and actually allows the horse to express whether he's anxious, upset, etc. and then finding out why and dealing with it, rather than just putting on more pressure.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Joel Reiter said:


> Clinton Anderson's method is based on progression. By the time you are under saddle your horse should not be having an anxiety attack when leaving his buddies. That doesn't mean he wouldn't rather stay with his friends than ride out alone. If he truly is bug-eyed terrified to leave, you might want to go back and fill the hole in your training.


That's assuming all other variables in the horse's environment remain constant. Your argument is like saying: If you don't have anxiety as a child, any symptom of anxiety you develop as an adult can rightfully be explained with stubbornness or laziness.


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## 15 hands (Apr 18, 2018)

SilverMaple said:


> Do most horses fit this description? Yes. Do all of them? Certainly not. I have horses, who have come leaps and bounds once they realized that I would listen to them rather than blindly assuming that they were trying to get out of work and start making them uncomfortable/applying pressure to get them to do something they were frightened of. Some horses will choose the hard route, because for them, that's easier than the one you think would be easiest. Once you realize that and get them relaxed and focused and get the fear out of them to the point where they can work with you, the problem often solves itself. Assuming a fearful horse is disrespectful or lazy is not going to help that horse learn to work with people. That will either result in a shut-down horse, or one who is now labeled 'crazy' because he's realized that when he gets anxious, the pressure gets worse and now he's even more anxious... a vicious circle.


Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I'd rather live with my side of the coin than yours.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

15 hands said:


> In situations yes. Horses don't get over their fears on their own, they need guidance and direction. I don't force them into situations they don't want to be in, I guide them. Take crossing water for example. Many horses are terrified of it because they can't see what lies under the surface, how deep it is, or if some monster is going to attack them from the depths below. Persistence, baby steps at a time, but they WILL cross that creek.
> ....


This approach sounds very different from what you advocated for a horse that's reluctant about riding out - maybe because he's lazy, maybe because he's buddy sour, maybe because he doesn't trust you'll keep him safe. I am objecting to using the same approach to deal with the three scenarios, without understanding the underlying cause. I'm also questioning whether making the horse sweat does anything to help him deal with his fears, rather than approach and retreat: Give him a nudge, reward for a response that indicates he's dealing with his anxiety. 

Many a time I was sitting on a horse huffing and blowing at...I had no idea what. I gave a little pressure, the horse stepped a little towards the stimulus, I took away pressure. Let her sit for a moment, then repeat. After a while, usually less than 2 mins, I get an "Oh, never mind, it's nothing...how silly of me!" and the horse walks on calmly and on her own devices. No drama was created, no sweat was poured, no laziness assumed. Just, as you said, _guidance_.

I used that same guidance on a horse that, when I first rode him, would not take me to the end of the driveway, and which I rode out solo for an hour 2 months later, working only with him once a week. There was no intense trotting near the barn and relaxing away from it. He needed to give me one or two more steps away from the barn _after the first balk_, then he got his turn-around. Once I got him to 100 yards or so from the barn, and brought him back home safely each time, he told me he was ready to go wherever - no more balking, he just kept walking.


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## ChasingDreams (Nov 14, 2017)

15 hands said:


> Or you can let them turn around, give them a treat for doing the wrong thing and let them take you home.



Boy this is a running theme today 

^This is obviously not the answer. For me though, I have two options: 

1- sit here at the edge of the stream for hours maybe, trying to force my horse to cross.

2- ask my horse to do something easier, maybe stand quietly next to the stream, sniff the water, put one foot in, get a drink, anything that I know will be “easy” for him to do and then reward that baby step by maybe doubling back to a different trail for a bit before turning back home. 

Then, you can train more at home and prep that activity - maybe practice walking over tarps and other obstacles in an empty pasture or ring, and then come back with confidence, or a buddy that you know will show your horse how to cross first. Set your horse up for success as often as possible. 

I don’t think it makes you less of a horse-person because you realize your horse isn’t ready for a particular obstacle on the trail and choose to fight the battle another day when you are more properly prepared for it. 

I think that absolutely goes back to the person above who mentioned that if a horse is white-eyeballs scared every time you leave the barn they might not be quite ready for the trails. If you do go for the trails and find yourself mistakenly over-faced, a tactical retreat can have it’s place.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think the big difference between whether or not this is a wise choice as a training tool is the anxiety level of the horse who is being asked to leave. 
I think when you do things to a very anxious horse that INCREASE his anxiety, you do not build his desire to really be with you , and work with you. He will not see you as a 'port in the storm'. you are putting him between a 'rock and a hard spot; between a hard spot and a harder spot. Not a very good choice you are offering.

I can see that it could work, for some horses, if the horse isn't really scared out if his gourd, and if the 'make him hustle' is done without adding in anxiety, so that it doesnt amp up the anxiety. It is just plain work, not punishment.

I think that when the horse learns that leaving isn't permanent, things get better. That means taking him out, putting him back, taking him out, putting him back . . . . over and over, and , as someone said, putting him back BEFORE he loses it.

Also, you might find a better dynamic if you have THREE equines. in fact, a mini donk person once told me that a person should never keep mini donks as singles; that you should always have two mini donks. if you did, with a triad, the whole splitting up dynamic changes. My experience is that is always easier to take one horse from a HERD, than it is to take one horse from a PAIR.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

15 hands said:


> Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I'd rather live with my side of the coin than yours.


I was also one who subscribed to the 'make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard approach' until I met horses that it didn't work on, and that were made worse by that style of training, and that you can mix that approach with some others that actually allow the horse to tell you what he's worried about so you can fix it rather than just forcing him to do it regardless. So yeah, you can assume all you want, but I'll stay on my side of the coin, too. My horses are happy and enjoy their jobs, and do them well.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

SilverMaple said:


> I was also one who subscribed to the 'make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard approach' until I met horses that it didn't work on, and that were made worse by that style of training


Making the right thing easy and wrong thing difficult is the foundation of natural horsemanship from Tom Dorrance on. It is as gentle and effective as the person applying it. Trainers like Stacy Westfall and Mark Rashid and Don James are very gentle; they still make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult.

Just because incompetent people apply a technique in a cruel and ineffective way doesn't make it a cruel and ineffective technique.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Joel Reiter said:


> Making the right thing easy and wrong thing difficult is the foundation of natural horsemanship from Tom Dorrance on. It is as gentle and effective as the person applying it. Trainers like Stacy Westfall and Mark Rashid and Don James are very gentle; they still make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult.
> 
> Just because incompetent people apply a technique in a cruel and ineffective way doesn't make it a cruel and ineffective technique.


I think people tend to simply forget (Buck Brannaman) "Give the horse _the best deal_ you can!" and (Clinton Anderson) "Make sure your horse _responds_ instead of _reacting_."


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Joel Reiter said:


> Making the right thing easy and wrong thing difficult is the foundation of natural horsemanship from Tom Dorrance on. It is as gentle and effective as the person applying it. Trainers like Stacy Westfall and Mark Rashid and Don James are very gentle; they still make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult.
> 
> Just because incompetent people apply a technique in a cruel and ineffective way doesn't make it a cruel and ineffective technique.


Didn't say it was-- but sometimes what we think the 'right' answer is (the easy thing) isn't what the horse thinks is easy and that's where people run into trouble and make a horse worse. In this instance, the buddy sourness, how one deals with it depends on whether the horse is buddy sour because he's lazy and views his friends as a way to not have to do work, or whether he views his friends as a safety net and being away from them as a source of fear. That's the issue here. Forcing the horse to do something he's afraid of will not yield the intended result and will instead undermine his trust in his handler/rider. Fix the fear first, and more than likely your buddy-sourness will be gone, too, without having to address it directly.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

SilverMaple said:


> Unfortunately, many people who think [Clinton Anderson is] the messiah of horse training and that his way is the only way and always works are out there using it on every horse, and that's not the way the world works.


Actually, Tom Dorrance is the messiah of horse training.

Clinton Anderson trained more than 600 horses by the time he was 17. That was a quarter century ago. How big a sample size do you need to decide whether his method works "on all horses"?



SilverMaple said:


> It's getting to the point that Parelli was at 20 years ago-- saying your horse was Parelli-trained would send most people running the opposite direction. We had a similar discussion on a FB topic a week ago, and the amount of people out there who had a horse experience a set-back due to CA-style training was pretty high.


This comes up all the time. It's true, and it's meaningless.

First, lots of people claim to be a follower of Pat Parelli or Clinton Anderson, but very very few of them get beyond the youtube and RFD tv episodes, which barely scratch the surface of what either teaches. You don't even know what their techniques are without watching one of the interminable DVD study series. That's the main reason for the knock on CA that he only has one way to do things. Anybody who says that is exposed, because in his books and DVDs he goes on and on about how the technique differs according to the horse.

Second, people vary wildly in their aptitude for training. Some people seem to have feel and timing almost instinctively, and others never learn to read a horse, let alone reward at the right moment. So some people will be incompetent even if they study. 

Finally, simple math -- Pat Parelli and Clinton Anderson have many thousands of followers, far more than any other trainers, so the number of incompetent followers is huge, and therefore the number of poorly trained horses is huge. Just because it doesn't work, when applied without competence, doesn't make it a bad method.

If we had an equal sample size for Tom Dorrance, I'm quite confident the results would be much worse than CA or Parelli. Dorrance was a genius with horses and almost impossible to understand for people.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

15 hands said:


> Happiness is your horse learning that you are his safe space, and more importantly his leader.


Agreed. But putting 'pressure' on him when he is feeling insecure/afraid is not the way to develop that. Horses learn by instant association, not rational thought. So if he is afraid & reactive and you go an make him 'work', not only are you further associating the 'scary' situation with discomfort, but you are associating 'working' for you with discomfort/bad associations.



> Are you saying this training method is flawed and wrong?
> https://www.google.com/search?q=cur...7.5850j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#kpvalbx=1


Yes. I do. I wouldn't say 'wrong' in ANY situation, but given as a 'recipe' approach, it's wrong IMO. While this technique will indeed work in some situations, as with anything, it depends. It is also not one that is considerate & respectFUL of the horse & IMHO that is an essential 'ingredient' in good training.



> I can go on linking hundreds of other videos by other notable trainers using the exact same method.


No need to do that. Most of us here have seen many, many vids & we agree with many & disagree with many. Just because there are vids out there & 'name brand trainers' preaching stuff doesn't mean they are 'proven facts'. No need to take offense or be offensive about differences of opinion. It's great to be able to rationally & respectfully discuss our differences though, which helps us all further our understandings.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Joel Reiter said:


> If Smilie were still with us she would say tie the two horses out of sight of each other and let them scream until they get over it.


Had an awful lot of respect for Smilie & agreed with most of her opinions. Not that one though. And the 'let them scream till they get over it' approach can just be like any other method of 'pressuring' a scared horse & developing learned helplessness. 

I have a horse who is perfectly happy to go out with me & leave his mates - I have worked hard to cause him to enjoy & trust being with me & playing my 'games', going exploring with me, etc. To not see his time with me as 'work'.

But leave him in the paddock & take his mates out? Turns into a screaming, frantic turkey(I'm serious, he sounds like a turkey from hell - should record it one of these days!). I have treated it as 'ignore it & he'll get over it'(in conjunction with 'approach & retreat' baby steps). But over the years he's got worse, not better with this approach. Even if the separation has been for days - he paces & calls almost constantly, so much so that the neighbours where I used to keep him requested(not unreasonably IMO) that I not leave him when I take one of his mates, because it's serious 'noise pollution'. He's got so that now even taking one horse out the gate without him is associated with his terror of being left alone & he freaks. Got to ensure when he's left, it's in a very well fenced area, because he's gone thru fences too.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Joel Reiter said:


> If trotting my horse is "punishing" and "misery" to him, we have more to worry about than how to fix a buddy sour problem. And if you are working a horse into a lather, you're doing this wrong.


Agree thoroughly. And for the record, not assuming that's what you're doing/saying Joel. 

But it does seem to be a common approach, to 'work' a horse as punishment. Given here as an assumed 'proven' way to 'break' a horse of 'buddysourness'. To use/think of 'working' a horse as an unpleasant thing, to use it as an undesirable consequence... THAT is a huge reason why I disagree with using 'work' as punishment - I strive hard to teach my horses to *enjoy *'working' for me.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Joel Reiter said:


> Clinton Anderson's method is based on progression. By the time you are under saddle your horse should not be having an anxiety attack when leaving his buddies. That doesn't mean he wouldn't rather stay with his friends than ride out alone. If he truly is bug-eyed terrified to leave, you might want to go back and fill the hole in your training.


Fair enough. It is not how it comes across in his vids. It is not how it comes across when stated as 'the answer' in a 'recipe' approach. That is a main point of contention for me - it DEPENDS on so much, and there are many other considerations & 'sides to the coin' to consider.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

15 hands said:


> Punishing? You're right, you do have a lot to learn. It's called "path of least resistence" and that is a natural trait horses will always lean toward. Make what you want them to do easy and what they want to do hard.


Not just horses. Most animals(not given to just panic under pressure & become a blithering mess) will take the 'path of least resistance'. AKA 'choosing the lesser evil'. That's why slave drivers & gaolers can get people doing awful & hard work for eg.

There is another approach that works, arguably better, and definitely with all animals, not just those who 'can stand the heat'. That is, teaching the animal that the 'work' you want of them is NOT an evil, but on the contrary is a Good Thing & is rewarded, to be desired, looked forward to.

Back when I was studying animal behaviour & behavioural psych, there were a couple of well known & respected behavioural trainers who recommended people have a go at training chickens, to help them understand applied behavioural psych better for dogs(& other animals). The reason? Birds are among the many animals that 'pressure/release' & other forceful methods don't work well for - generally turns them into a blithering mess(& I think it's the reason behind the attitude of 'bird-brained' - ie birds are stupid. I certainly haven't found them to be so). So people who wish to train them well are forced to consider & use other methods, such as reward based training.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

A horse wants to be an idiot and not trust me, they can stand tied to the patience tree and stew in their own juices. It will happen but once. Nowadays, I just have to growl and they do what they know they are supposed to. Older horses been with me for ages, old lady who is boss mare, everyone around here is well behaved, except the old lady.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Way too much of the 'cookie cutter' approach.
Most of the time people are able to say 'It always works for me' with complete honesty is because they stick with a certain type/breed of horse. The sort of horses that might put on a big scary looking show of bravado but roll over and oblige the moment the real pressure is put on them. 
I've seen it so many times now it makes me yawn.
Anyone who's had a lifetime of experience with a way more varied selection of horses will tell you that not all things work for all horses.
I'm also very aware of the fact that while some people might be able to deal with a horse having a meltdown because they've misread the situation or pushed a bit too hard, another one is likely to end up in hospital - or worse.


In this case the horse has just been moved from a boarding yard where it was surrounded by other horses to a new home with just one companion. To add to that I'm thinking that maybe the owner wasn't the one caring for the horse 24/7 but, as far as the horse is concerned, just someone who turned up to ride 'as and when'.


It takes time for some horses to settle in to a new home. 
Its going to take time for the horse to learn that its owner is now its number 1 carer and a person they can lean on and trust.


I'm not sure what the donkey's attitude is in all of this but if its also getting hysterical when they're separated then its not a suitable companion for an already anxious horse. You need a calming influence not one that's adding to the problem.


I would give this particular horse a little more time to settle down before doing anything.
When we first bought Jazzy (a WB) home we found ourselves with a crazy animal on our hands every time another horse in the barn was moved in or out. The sellers assured us she was not like that with them so we did everything we could to make things easy for her to keep her stress levels at a minimum. A week later she was the horse her sellers had said she was - calm, relaxed and happy. I could leave her on her own forever now if I wanted too, she couldn't care less what the other horses are doing or where they are.
What will work for some horses would be a total disaster for others.
You will never make a horse less reactive by pushing it into a situation that makes it more reactive.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I 100% agree with Jaydee's post. 

Hondo, a member here, had problems with his horse being very herd bound. He would take a feed outside the field and take his horse to eat it. Gradually he took the feed further and further away until the horse couldn't care less about the others. 

Horses that 'marry' to another, especially when there are only two of them, can be dangerous with frantic efforts to get back to their friend. 

An older couple I knew had two horses, both great animals at had been well trained. These two were always ridden and turned out together and stables next to each other. I think the only time they were separated was when the owners went on holiday and they came to me. I had to stable them next to each other or their shrieking kept everyone in a 2 mile radius awake. Riding was another matter. I had a good friend who would ride one whilst I rode the other and we would set out together and then part ways. It took a week for them to realise they weren't going to die if they couldn't see or hear each other. Unfortunately they then returned to the owners and were back to being stuck together. 

To the owners it didn't matter as they always rode together. That was until one day out Fox Hunting when we were queuing to jump a stile into forestry, there was a gate by the stile forming a shallow 'V' the man jumped the stile, the mare saw her companion disappearing into the trees and charged at the gate which was over 5' to big for her to jump. She stopped dead and the owner went over her head like a human cannon ball. (I have never seen anyone fail to put an arm out) She landed face first and skidded on the flint path. Horrific injuries which required plastic surgery over a couple of years. 

So, it is important that they do learn to go alone.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

I am about to move my two mares home and this thread has greatly accelerated my push to find a third companion mare for them. Both ride out on trails alone very nicely now, but where they are currently boarded, are turned out in a paddock with another horse on either side so never truly alone. I don't see either of them being good "only horse" candidates and really don't want to have to face something like this every time I ride. I feel for you OP- is another companion an option? 



> @Foxhunter...
> She stopped dead and the owner went over her head like a human cannon ball. (I have never seen anyone fail to put an arm out) She landed face first and skidded on the flint path.


A couple of years ago I was out riding in the woods and my horse tripped hard and suddenly, and went down to her knees, and I went right on over her head. I had no "stick your arm out" reflex and I too took the full impact face-first. I'm sure I broke my nose, though it wasn't displaced. I had the black eyes to show for it though. I was incredibly lucky, I landed in the relatively soft loam of the forest path, but if I had landed inches to the right or left, would have cracked my forehead on huge rocks. Couldn't have been any luckier, even with the two black eyes!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Foxhunter said:


> She landed face first and skidded on the flint path.


Ouch! I felt that!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Fear can so very easily escalate in any species to the point of being dangerous and leading to blind panic and in cases like this someone needs to take charge. 

Soothing fear, 'there's a good boy, nothing is going to happen pat pat pat amd a tidbit,' is reinforcing that fear. Fear is only surmounted by facing it whether this is done by taking the horse outside and feeding it gradually increasing the distance away from the friend or by taking the horse and making it do what you want by riding it well away out of hearing distance. 

The latter takes experience in knowing what you are doing and how much pressure to put on the horse. Riding it hard around the friend and letting it rest away from the cause does work but again it takes experience amd automatic reactions. 

With the OP I would suggest that they get rid of the donkey, let the horse be on its own for a month or so. Get him riding out alone and then Introduce a companion.


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## Peter123 (May 10, 2018)

A good set of spurs will work wonders. Your horse will forget about his mate in 2 seconds flat


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Peter123 said:


> A good set of spurs will work wonders. Your horse will forget about his mate in 2 seconds flat


I'm sure it would - unfortunately if the owner/rider doesn't have the skill set to deal with the ensuing fall out when they use those spurs someone is likely to end up seriously hurt and the horse could be in a far worse mental state than he already is.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

15 hands said:


> Pressure/release. Make him work when he's by the donkey - this is the pressure. Trot him in small circles by the donkey several times. Then casually walk him away from the donkey in increasingly far distances and let him walk slow and rest. This is the release. When he gets antsy to be by his friend, take him back and increase the pressure again. Repeat this over and over. He will soon find that he gets his release by being away from the donkey and will be happy there.


I personally have never been a big fan of this method. I know that people use this method for buddy/barn sour issues, along with gate sour horses, and other similar problems. I don't think the horse makes the connection that they are "working hard" near their buddy, and allowed to "be lazy" away from their buddy. In my mind, this method does not fall under the category of pressure/release. 

To me, pressure/release means that when I put my leg on the horse's side (pressure), I expect them to move their body away from my leg and then I stop pressing with my leg (release). 

Or when I pick up on the reins (pressure) I expect my horse to slow down or stop (based on the amount of pressure I have applied, and what my other seat/body cues are doing) and then I let go of the pressure on the reins (release). 

"Pressuring" a horse to work hard by their buddy and then "releasing" them when they are away from their buddy just doesn't make sense to me. 

Instead, I simply focus on asking the horse to listen to me. If I am asking them to walk away from their buddy, I expect them to walk away from their buddy. I give them whatever seat/leg/reins cues I need to accomplish that goal. The buddy really doesn't matter at all to me, because I would still treat my horse the same in any other situation where I wanted them to walk in a straight line. 

Same thing where someone might work a horse hard near the gate in an arena to "teach" them not to be gate sour ..... I don't do that. Instead, if I (for example) am asking my horse to lope in a circle and they want to veer toward the gate, I will use whatever seat/leg/rein cues I need to use in order to keep my horse on the path I want them to be on. I really don't care about the gate at all. I care about getting a result from my horse, based on what I want them to do. They learn they need to listen to me and what I am asking them to do, and eventually learn to ignore everything else going on around them.




15 hands said:


> In situations yes. Horses don't get over their fears on their own, they need guidance and direction. I don't force them into situations they don't want to be in, I guide them. Take crossing water for example. Many horses are terrified of it because they can't see what lies under the surface, how deep it is, or if some monster is going to attack them from the depths below. Persistence, baby steps at a time, but they WILL cross that creek.
> 
> Or you can let them turn around, give them a treat for doing the wrong thing and let them take you home.


Well, by using the method you recommend, wouldn't you take them away from the water and work them hard, and then bring them back to the water and let them rest? So that they "want" to be by the water? (This is just another example of why I don't personally like the method that you like. I just feel it doesn't actually teach the horse anything.)

I would approach this the same way I approach everything else - ask the horse to respond to my cues. If he's unsure, he may only give me a baby step forward instead of a desired full step, but that's okay. As long as he is trying to respond to my leg/seat/rein cues, he is going to find release from my cue pressure. The water itself has nothing to do with it and could be "replaced" with a log, or ditch, or bridge, or whatever the obstacle may be.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Buddy sour can be a tough situation to fix, especially for the inexperienced. Have seen some horses be extremely dangerous when separated from their buddy. Unfortunately lack of early intervention and training is what made those horses dangerous. 

So, first realize that two are more likely to have problems and is in my opinion the only number that should be avoided at all costs. Would rather have a solitary horse than only two. 

So first step is to get another horse/donkey or rehome the donkey. 

Second is gentle training, first on the ground, later under saddle. 

You will need two people for this, one to handle each animal. 

Begin by walking together for a circle in each direction in an arena. Then slowly have one go slightly slower or faster for a few steps, so they are no longer walking side by side. Continue to do this until you can make a full circuit with one animal before returning to their side.

At all times important to give lots of praise when calm and slowly merge back together and apart while walking in the same direction.

Next step is to walk in the opposite direction from each other. At first it will only be a few steps, but both horses must turn and change direction (although not violently like the CA video). 

At all times the leaders must be calm yet attentive. Go as slow and as carefully as needed to gain trust. 

Your goal is to be able to ride (or be working) in the same general area but always in different directions and different speeds once the horse is calm. 

Eventually one horse will just be standing while the other is working. Or one will come a little bit later than the other or leave a little bit earlier. The work needs to be interesting so the horses do not become ring sour or exhausted.

The horses will soon realize that when their person leads then away, they will enjoy the time together and trust their person. 

Avoid working the animals in the same direction as much as possible to keep them focused.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

beau159 said:


> I would approach this the same way I approach everything else - ask the horse to respond to my cues.


Hah, intriguing - I never thought about it this way: ignore the context and just work with how the horse responds, irrespective of the reason for responding this way. (I'm paraphrasing to see if I understand correctly.) Of course, that would require a more thorough reading of the horse's state of mind, more thoroughly than "It wants to go fast" or "It doesn't want to go forward," but it'll allow you to work with, say, a "scared horse" even if you have no idea *why* it is scared - because it really doesn't matter, does it?

I want to find a loop hole where context would matter, but I can't think of any right now. Something to ponder...so thanks!


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

PS - The only Guru I followed was John Lyons, but I didn't follow blindly. What I do that he said was this:

You can do anything you can think of with a horse if the following two things can be answered "Yes". 

1) Is it safe for you?
2) Is it safe for the horse? 

I don't believe tying a horse out all day waiting for them to quit screaming is safe for the horse. 

Can you imagine what it would be like for the physical health of their throat and vocal cords? Plus the mental anguish of being left alone even though they are screaming for help? 

I have seen horses break their necks when subjected to this kind of torture. It is not training, it is torture.


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AnitaAnne said:


> Plus the mental anguish of being left alone even though they are screaming for help?
> 
> I have seen horses break their necks when subjected to this kind of torture. It is not training, it is torture.


Hear hear!


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> Hah, intriguing - I never thought about it this way: ignore the context and just work with how the horse responds, irrespective of the reason for responding this way. (I'm paraphrasing to see if I understand correctly.)


Pretty much!

Maybe the only exception is if the horse is in pain. Obviously, the root cause needs to be addressed if it's pain. I still won't tolerate the horse acting out (such as bucking or rearing) and I will correct them accordingly but it is my responsibility to recognize that the horse is hurting and take care of the problem appropriately. 

But yes, for just about every situation either on the ground or in the saddle, if you have the horse focused on YOU and what you are asking the horse to do, the rest of the world doesn't matter. 



mmshiro said:


> Of course, that would require a more thorough reading of the horse's state of mind, more thoroughly than "It wants to go fast" or "It doesn't want to go forward," but it'll allow you to work with, say, a "scared horse" even if you have no idea *why* it is scared - because it really doesn't matter, does it?


I don't care what the horse "doesn't" want to do. I don't think about it that way. I focus on what I want the horse to do for me. If I have asked the horse to trot, and the horse instead breaks into a canter, I don't make a big fuss of it, but I bring them back down to a trot, either through pressure on the reins, serpentines, half-halt, circle, etc (whatever the situation calls for) and give them a chance to trot again. They might only make it half a second at first but that's okay. I bring them back to a trot. Rinse and repeat. Patience and consistency are very important. 

If the horse doesn't want to go forward, depending on the situation, I may simply KEEP ASKING them to go forward until they respond, increasing the pressure as needed. Or, if they are locked up or have the potential to rear, I'll change my cue to a turnaround or a rollback to get their feet moving again, and then ask them to move forward. Even if I have to change my request mid-stride, that's okay. I'm still actively asking the horse to do something, and we will eventually get to our goal of moving forward. A horse might have a bad day and we may not progress as much as I had planned, but that's okay because we can still end on a positive note with the horse responding correctly.

But exactly. A horse can't possibly be scared or spooky if they are paying attention to the rider, because that shifts their attention away from the scary object, whatever that may be. 

Maybe we are walking down the trail and someone is coming by on a bicycle. Maybe I was walking along in a straight line but I recognize that my horse tensed up and is going to be fearful of the bike. So, I'll change my mind = I no longer want my horse to walk forward. Maybe, instead, I decide all-of-a-sudden that I want you to sidepass. Now I'm purposefully re-directing my horse's attention from the scary bicycle rider to me, because I am asking them to compete a task (sidepass). They can't be spooky and pay attention to me at the same time. 

The same way the horse can't be buddy sour if they are paying attention to me and doing whatever task I am asking them to do. 

Of course, a solid horse doesn't happen overnight, but with a consistent approach and consistent (real) pressure and release, they learn to pay attention to the rider and not what's going on around them.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> PS - The only Guru I followed was John Lyons, but I didn't follow blindly. What I do that he said was this:
> 
> You can do anything you can think of with a horse if the following two things can be answered "Yes".
> 
> ...


In cases like that, the horse likely didn't tie well or give to pressure to begin with, and thus should NOT be left tied alone until that issue is fixed FIRST.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

beau159 said:


> But yes, for just about every situation either on the ground or in the saddle, if you have the horse focused on YOU and what you are asking the horse to do, the rest of the world doesn't matter.


This is absolutely the truth. The real issue is, how to get the horse to focus on you and ignore the rest of the world



beau159 said:


> I don't care what the horse "doesn't" want to do. I don't think about it that way. I focus on what I want the horse to do for me. If I have asked the horse to trot, and the horse instead breaks into a canter, I don't make a big fuss of it, but I bring them back down to a trot, either through pressure on the reins, serpentines, half-halt, circle, etc (whatever the situation calls for) and give them a chance to trot again. They might only make it half a second at first but that's okay. I bring them back to a trot. Rinse and repeat. Patience and consistency are very important.
> 
> If the horse doesn't want to go forward, depending on the situation, I may simply KEEP ASKING them to go forward until they respond, increasing the pressure as needed. Or, if they are locked up or have the potential to rear, I'll change my cue to a turnaround or a rollback to get their feet moving again, and then ask them to move forward. Even if I have to change my request mid-stride, that's okay. I'm still actively asking the horse to do something, and we will eventually get to our goal of moving forward. A horse might have a bad day and we may not progress as much as I had planned, but that's okay because we can still end on a positive note with the horse responding correctly.


Absolutely. The rider must be flexible (no one size fits all) and recognize and accept baby steps. 

To do this successfully requires that the rider/handler be capable of teaching, recognizing, and rewarding those baby steps as progress towards to goal. 



beau159 said:


> But exactly. A horse can't possibly be scared or spooky if they are paying attention to the rider, because that shifts their attention away from the scary object, whatever that may be.
> 
> Maybe we are walking down the trail and someone is coming by on a bicycle. Maybe I was walking along in a straight line but I recognize that my horse tensed up and is going to be fearful of the bike. So, I'll change my mind = I no longer want my horse to walk forward. Maybe, instead, I decide all-of-a-sudden that I want you to sidepass. Now I'm purposefully re-directing my horse's attention from the scary bicycle rider to me, because I am asking them to compete a task (sidepass). They can't be spooky and pay attention to me at the same time.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with this. Of course the key elements are knowing the horse, reading their body language, and recognizing when and how the rider must intervene to regain the horse's attention. 

I have often done a bit of shoulder fore when passing a known spook object on the trail. 

Bicycles however are still an extremely fear producing object, even though my nervy horse totally ignores the kids riding bikes at home! 

Horses are always a work in progress...


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Peter123 said:


> A good set of spurs will work wonders. Your horse will forget about his mate in 2 seconds flat


Spurs are intended for subtle, precise cues, not for painful kicks.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

AnitaAnne said:


> 1) Is it safe for you?
> 2) Is it safe for the horse?
> 
> I don't believe tying a horse out all day waiting for them to quit screaming is safe for the horse.
> ...



Believing that this method will work for all horses because a person has seen it work with X number of horses is just another example of the cookie cutter approach. 
Not all horses are created equal and until something goes horribly wrong you have no idea if its going to be safe for the horse or not.
Some horses can look impressively scary when they throw a tantrum about being left on their own - our cob Honey is built like a tank and would go right over the top of someone if she felt like it but she's actually got a really high level of self control and what looks like panic is really a well thought out tactic to get her own way. I could quite safely take her and tie her up on her own and she'd stand there all day and do nothing more than dig a hole in the ground where she'd be constantly pawing at it in her annoyance. It doesn't solve her problem though as the moment she'd be back in her stable she'd be doing her hysteria act again if she was left on her own.
On the other hand if I tried to do it with Lou, who also hates being left in the barn on her own and who will stand tied all day if she can see other horses if I wanted to do that, she would totally lose self control and hurt herself.
They will both ride away from other horses with no worries at all.
Even the most placid of horses have a breaking point.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Believing that this method will work for all horses because a person has seen it work with X number of horses is just another example of the cookie cutter approach.
> Not all horses are created equal and until something goes horribly wrong you have no idea if its going to be safe for the horse or not.
> Some horses can look impressively scary when they throw a tantrum about being left on their own .


This, and this is why I go back to the get a trainer option so often, do I think they are some sort of magical beings? NO

Do I think the good ones have the ability to read a horse and know which approach will work, yes.
Do I think the good ones have handled far more horses than I have, and have a larger 'box of tricks' to dig into YES...

Doesn't matter if it is on the ground, or in the saddle being able to reach for the right response without having to think about it, makes all the difference.


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