# Can you tell the difference?



## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

I bought my first horse in January and this is her now in April. Can you tell a difference? Is she looking better? I'm not experienced enough to know for sure, but she sure looks fine to me! I'm very proud if you can't tell.


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## alyssaanne (Aug 12, 2012)

Ummmmm either its a different horse or one of the pics is flipped?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

I think a pic is flipped. Those markings are pretty clear. Also, to the OP, kind of hard to tell anything about change since the first pic is rather unclear. She does look more attentive and energetic now, but that can be a day to day thing. And it seems like she has better muscle.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Really hard to tell as the first pic is so dark, but she's definitely lost some belly. However, I'm concerned about the saddle fit - from the sweat marks, it looks like the saddle is riding right up on her shoulders. This can certainly cause her pain and not want to travel correctly, which may be where her inverted muscling is coming from.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

No worries on the sweat marks. She has even sweat everywhere the saddle touches and a totally dry backbone. This pic was taken was after I had brushed her out and hung around for a while, and most of it had dried.

Her belly has shrunk a lot and now I'm seeing veins pop up over the muscle when before she was too chunky to see anything.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

And yes, the picture was flipped so they'd be facing the same direction.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

While she has lost some belly and has a shiny coat, she now has incorrect muscling in her neck, where the bottom muscle is larger than the top one and bulges out (giving a ewe neck look not present in the prior photo). This is an indication that she is traveling with her back hollowed out and with her head up in the air.


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## MinervaELS (Mar 4, 2014)

It's very hard to tell with the pictures so small, but to me her feet look a lot worse in the recent picture than in the older one.

Her weight loss looks great though! She looks pregnant in the January picture, so HUGE improvement there.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

The sweat marks indicate that you are placing your saddle way too far forward. This will impede her shoulder, and can cause damage.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

The saddle is not too far forward. It doesn't come near her shoulder bone, I have made sure of that. She has no impediment to her movement at all. And like I mentioned up thread, she has sweat from front to back; this photo was taken after most of it had dried.

She carries her head much lower than she used to when ridden. A huge improvement over January. Like any horse, when she's excited and full of energy, she starts out with her head up but then as she relaxes it moves down into a better position.

She's a half draft, so her neck will always be very thick and kind of out of proportion to her body. She's also half-arabian, so parts of her are delicate while parts of her are very drafty.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

Her feet weren't bad to start with, but the frogs were a little thrushy and had started to grow a little crooked being off balance. I got an osteo out to work on her back and a barefoot trained farrier to do her feet twice now, and the frogs are back on track. And the sole is hard and no more thrush, so the hooves are actually in better shape than they were. She's never lame and moves better too, so I have to believe her feet are fine.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

Ecasey- I understand that this is your first horse and as you said, you are very proud of her. However you posted asking for critiques, then tell every person who has critiqued that they are wrong. Instead of shooting down every person who posts comments here in the critique section perhaps your thread would be better off in horse chat forum if you only want people to tell you how sweet/nice/lovely she is. No one here is trying to hurt your feelings, however we are critiquing, which is what this forum is for. Many people that have commented have many years of experience and instead of just saying everything is OK, consider listening to them.

The sweat marks, whether wet or dry, are in a location that they should not be (on her shoulder) indicating saddle positioning issues (which may relate to saddle fit or just where you set your saddle on her back). The neck, could just be the photo because her head is more up, but looks much more upside down in development now than before. There is a strong chance these two things are related.

If you are willing to listen and learn you and your horse will progress much faster! Anyways... Wishing you the best of luck with this horse now and in the future.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

ecasey said:


> The saddle is not too far forward. It doesn't come near her shoulder bone, I have made sure of that. She has no impediment to her movement at all. And like I mentioned up thread, she has sweat from front to back; this photo was taken after most of it had dried.
> 
> She carries her head much lower than she used to when ridden. A huge improvement over January. Like any horse, when she's excited and full of energy, she starts out with her head up but then as she relaxes it moves down into a better position.
> 
> She's a half draft, so her neck will always be very thick and kind of out of proportion to her body. She's also half-arabian, so parts of her are delicate while parts of her are very drafty.


If you listened to what people are saying you might just learn something. I also agree the saddle is too far forward, which may be caused by her short back and it is pushing it forward, and her neck regardless of her breed would not look like that with correct work.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

You have an older post about your horses neck/mane being sore. Please pay attention. Something is wrong, she is obviously sore from something and saddle fit could be the issue. I would suggest you get a consult with a well respected chiropractor that will be honest and maybe educate you on some things to look for and to tell when a horse is in pain.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

I appreciate the feedback for sure. Does that mean I'll accept everything I hear on this forum at face value and not weigh it against what I hear from other sources? No. That would be silly. In a single thread you can hear opposing viewpoints pretty much every time. Who should I believe?

Understand that I'm not working this horse alone; I'm surrounded by experts. According to them, not me, the saddle fit is fine, her feet are fine, and her neck is fine. She's come a long way in just 3 months. Does she have further to go? Absolutely. We'll be working on that for the foreseeable future.

I've never posted that this horse had a sore neck. A vet check showed zero pain there or anywhere for that matter. I did post that a chiro came out and cracked her neck (along with many other things), and that visit was just so I could be sure there was no underlying issue that the horse might not be sharing with me. She also did adjustments all over her body. I think that's fairly standard procedure for this professional. I have posted about the horse having head tossing issues before I bought her but a new bridle without knots fixed that issue. But neck pain? No. Not this horse.

I realize some of you have great experience and all of you come here to help people, which I sincerely appreciate. I come here every day to soak up the information you all share. Don't take offense if the other people I'm working with have a different opinion than you do. It is difficult to tell a lot from pictures and without seeing the horse in action.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

churumbeque said:


> You have an older post about your horses neck/mane being sore. Please pay attention. Something is wrong, she is obviously sore from something and saddle fit could be the issue. I would suggest you get a consult with a well respected chiropractor that will be honest and maybe educate you on some things to look for and to tell when a horse is in pain.


Actually, what I posted is that she doesn't like her _mane_ pulled, and several other posters said they had the same exact issue with their horses, or had seen a horse with a similar issue. That has nothing to do with saddle fit, feet, or back problems. It has everything to do with a horse just not liking to have their mane pulled.  Like people, some horses are just more sensitive than others in that area.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

ecasey said:


> Actually, what I posted is that she doesn't like her _mane_ pulled, and several other posters said they had the same exact issue with their horses, or had seen a horse with a similar issue. That has nothing to do with saddle fit, feet, or back problems. It has everything to do with a horse just not liking to have their mane pulled.  Like people, some horses are just more sensitive than others in that area.


You also referred to the fact that when you were balancing yourself you touched her neck and she seemed sore.
this is your post. to me mane attached to neck is related.

During my lessons, when my instructor wants me to go into 2-pt position, she tells me to grab the horse's mane to steady myself (I'm still learning my balance).

When I did this on the lesson horse, he didn't bat an eye.

When I did it on my new-to-me mare on Monday during our lesson, she obviously felt it and didn't appreciate it. It's like she suddenly woke up and said, "What in the H.E. Double hockey sticks do you think you're doing?! Get off me!" So I started just resting my hands on either side of it and that solved the problem.

She also doesn't like it when I brush it. I can tell it hurts or something because she starts dancing around and trying to move away from me when normally she's a snuggler.

I thought manes were without feeling. Was I misinformed? Is there something else going on here?


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

ecasey said:


> The saddle is not too far forward. It doesn't come near her shoulder bone, I have made sure of that. She has no impediment to her movement at all. And like I mentioned up thread, she has sweat from front to back; this photo was taken after most of it had dried.
> 
> She carries her head much lower than she used to when ridden. A huge improvement over January. Like any horse, when she's excited and full of energy, she starts out with her head up but then as she relaxes it moves down into a better position.
> 
> She's a half draft, so her neck will always be very thick and kind of out of proportion to her body. She's also half-arabian, so parts of her are delicate while parts of her are very drafty.


I can see the clear outline of a saddle flap and girth sweat marks. But if you don't want to listen that is not my problem.


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## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

OP, it's fine if you don't want to listen to these good knowledgeable people on this forum, but we are just saying that your saddle is very clearly on this horses shoulder. 
Why don't you post a picture of the saddle on your horses back for us?

One of the effects of a saddle on a horses shoulder is the shoulder bone can actually become chipped, leading to lots of vet bills, and a horse in excruciating pain. If you want that, then by all means keep a closed mind. 
Just saying.


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## Aesthetic (Aug 7, 2012)

I agree that her saddle is way far forward. It appears to have been up on her shoulder blades and he girth very far under the elbow. 
Her neck, I understand what you mean, but I don't see a major problem. I'm not to knowledgable on it. 
Her feet do appear kind of odd and awkward, especially the back. 
Do you work with her head low and her body collected? Her top line appears less formed than the rest of her muscle.


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## aharlov (Apr 2, 2013)

From the clear outline of the sweat stains from the saddle, it looks to be way over her withers and her shoulders. That saddle needs to be moved back a few inches. A lot of people mistakenly think that to put a saddle in the correct spot, you need to fit the girth right behind the elbow, which isn't true.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I read fast, so I don't know if anyone told you HOW to position an English saddle correctly. Correctly placed, and English saddle's girth needs to be four fingers width behind the horse's elbow. Yes, you use YOUR four fingers.
Some horses will ride the saddle forward--my mare does this. For that, you can purchase a crupper and attach it to the two "D's" on the saddle's cantle, and, of course, it fits around your horse's tail.


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## aharlov (Apr 2, 2013)

Corporal- please let me know if I am wrong- but I thought if a saddle slipped forward, then it was too narrow for the horse?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I'm not sure. My mare has mutton withers, and the only other horse I owned with mutton withers, a QH, had the same problem.
Somebody else will have to answer that. I just know how I saddle her for long trail rides, with both a breastplate and a crupper, easy to attach to a McClellan saddle.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

I have marked up your pic, OP, so you are aware what everyone is seeing. Perhaps someone else can mark where the saddle should be. I know it when I put the saddle on, but when I tried to draw it on, it didn't work for me. I figure it should be back about four inches or so.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

aharlov said:


> Corporal- please let me know if I am wrong- but I thought if a saddle slipped forward, then it was too narrow for the horse?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In the OPs case it could be getting pushed forward because the horse has a very short back. Might be correct when starting out but changing as the horse moves. Narrow would make it set high and angled.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

NorthernMama said:


> I have marked up your pic, OP, so you are aware what everyone is seeing. Perhaps someone else can mark where the saddle should be. I know it when I put the saddle on, but when I tried to draw it on, it didn't work for me. I figure it should be back about four inches or so.
> View attachment 413218


as you can see by the photo its rump is much higher than the withers so my guess is the saddle is sliding forward


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## aharlov (Apr 2, 2013)

churumbeque said:


> In the OPs case it could be getting pushed forward because the horse has a very short back. Might be correct when starting out but changing as the horse moves. Narrow would make it set high and angled.


Thank you for clarifying!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

OP, here is where the saddle should be:










And here is a picture in real life so you can see for yourself, that your saddle is, in fact way too far forward:


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

The mare is downhill and has a very short, flat back. My mare also has a short, flat back and I'm having a hell of a time trying to find a saddle that fits. 
OP, the saddle is not positioned correctly. It's riding right up her shoulders and wither. This is probably a combination of her conformation and the saddle being too narrow.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

CandyCanes said:


> OP, here is where the saddle should be:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I suppose though a hunt seat saddle pad could make those marks that are too far forward but would love to see saddle on actual horse


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## Chopsticks (Mar 11, 2012)

i hope the OP is at least reading the thread if not commenting. I understand a lot of feedback can be overwhelming, regardless if you asked for it or not. As everyone has said (and drawn) the saddle is ill fitting. I can tell you from personal experience from owning a horse with a similar shape and fitting him in a slightly bad, but not awful, saddle did to his overall health. Thought I was doing well by spending thousands on a well known brand but guess what, nothing matters except fit, not brand, cost etc. Well four years later he's much much better (after custom fitting a saddle to him for two years and then finding a reasonably priced schooling western saddle that was just as good) but he always will have a twinge in his lower back and I know it's because the saddle I had him in pinched him below the withers which has repercussions throughout the spine. His shoulder was impeded which wrecked the rest of his movement. It took him finally getting so sore he started to buck every time I asked for a canter.

Please don't let it get to that point. Your mare is already telling you something is wrong with her 'mane pain'. And the saddle marks say it all. Good luck!!!!


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## PixiTrix (Sep 11, 2013)

I love before and after pics so I'd love to see some better quality ones. I agree her belly looks much better and the appearance of an ewe neck in the second pic looks to me to be caused more from the angle. I think she's just kind of squished so it's looking that way- more pics would do her more justice! I also don't think the hooves look bad in the second pic but I'm no hoof expert.


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## dlady (Apr 13, 2013)

I'm quite sure ecasey appreciate all the feedback that has been given here. But she rides in a western saddle. Pictures are posted in this thread.

http://www.horseforum.com/new-horses/im-so-happy-my-new-horse-368298/page2/


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

dlady said:


> I'm quite sure ecasey appreciate all the feedback that has been given here. But she rides in a western saddle. Pictures are posted in this thread.
> 
> http://www.horseforum.com/new-horses/im-so-happy-my-new-horse-368298/page2/


Its nice someone updated us. It looked like a jumping saddle from the marks and that is why I posted it was possible that the pad made the marks.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

I actually believe the OP does ride in an English saddle, I remember seeing a thread that it was mentioned in, wish I had linked to it now.

And a saddle being too far forward is not one discipline specific, it is possible for a western saddle to be too far forward, and no matter the discipline, the saddle is still too far forward.

Here is the thread: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/easier-canter-2-point-than-sitting-394346/


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

aharlov said:


> Corporal- please let me know if I am wrong- but I thought if a saddle slipped forward, then it was too narrow for the horse?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Not always, as was pointed out by another poster it can be related to short backed or rump high horses.

ETA - My pony has both a wide, flat back and is rump high I we had a devil of a time finding something that didn't ride up on her. Once I found something that worked it was amazing how many "behavioral" issues under saddle were either lessened or stopped completely. Now she is (was, I suppose as we are just beginning work again after the winter, although I expect the changes to continue) far more willing to reach down and work low, slow down, and no more crow hopping either.


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