# Grade Stallions/Grade Mares



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> what is wrong with people breeding grades if they have good conformation, temperament, test N/N for HERDA, hypp, etc, and work well in their discipline?
> 
> 
> > short answer - because there are multiple horses with all of these factors, but are also registered. Not every horse with those factors should be bred, and if there is a defining characteristic, such as registration, why not use it.
> > _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

I have a grade QH Mare and while I obviously had no issues buying one that was grade, I'd never breed her.

I have no idea what her lineage looks like. She could come from a couple of psychotic, never should have been bred, horses and by some sheer miracle ended up a wonderfully talented, level-headed calm horse. 

My sister-in-law has a registered OTTB that she would never breed because she knows for a fact that multiple siblings of her horse were put down because they were mentally unbalanced. Her horse is perfectly fine but there is a good chance that her offspring could end up like her siblings did and now here's another horse being put down.

With grade horses, you have no idea what is in their genetics. There could be some horribly nasty confirmation faults that didn't show up in *this* horse but have a very good chance at being passed to future offspring.

The unregistered status isn't a fault but the unknown background is.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

The best horse I have ever rode was a 'grade' horse and if I had the opportunity, I would have a barn full of him. I don't like the idea of breeding just because but if you have a quality mare and a quality stud and you want a quality foal...if they were registered you wouldn't think twice. My current horse is registered with very good bloodlines and is still an idiot at times...all horses have their flaws, some just have ancestry to back them up.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

The whole point of registering a horse with a certain stud book is to allow for selection and documentation of certain heritable traits. Let's take your good quality grade horse example and compare it to a registered horse with the same good qualities. On the registered horse, we can look at pedigree and draw conclusions about genotype and predict the liklihood of their passing certain qualities on. The grade horse is a complete wild card; you have no idea if the desirable characteristics it shows will breed true because you have no data to base it on. A breed registry is essentially a genetic database. 

BTW, are you aware that certain registries are open? Meaning that if you have an exceptional individual that exhibits all the qualities that are considered desirable in the breed, they can be conditionally registered with that stud book? This is true of many of the European warmbloods, but the testing and selection of breeding stock is incredibly rigorous. That is why you can have a warmblood stallion registered with multiple breed registries if he's an extraordinary enough individual.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Well, first of all there are not too many people with grade (as well as registered) horses who _*honestly*_ can judge their mares for the flaws and breeding quality. I'm not saying there are none so please don't jump on me, but from lots of threads going all over the Internet most mares posted "to breed" or "excellent broodmare" etc. are just not a breeding quality. They still may be exceptional trail horses, but it just doesn't make them breeding quality. 

Now I don't have a problem with someone breeding good confo/disposition mare to the complimenting stud, even though this mare is grade, for themself or if they have a proved home before they do breeding. But if you then want to sell it... Well, grade horse most probably won't bring tons of money (although I'm sure there are exceptions). However I do believe there is always a market for the well trained horses with good conformation. EVEN if they are grade. 

Another thing to consider about the grade horses often people look for specific bloodlines. It's especially true for those expensive horses. If you want to pay $$$ for the baby you want to know what you get.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Thunderhooves, Justin Morgan isn't a good example to use as a grade horse, because he bred true. He was also conformationally well put together, as well as had an iron constitution.

He threw his look, type, and personality onto the foals he sired, which is what encouraged people who bred these horses to start a registry.

The founding stallion's genetics may not be known, but you can bet _every_ registered Morgan today can be traced back genetically to the founding animals of the breed.

I want to know an animal's genetics, their possible temperament, their susceptibilities health wise, as well as what performance disciplines he or she may have been bred for. There's no sense trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. If an animal's been purposely bred to do a discipline I don't want to do, it would make no sense for me to purchase it.

When you have no clue to an animal's parentage nor any idea _why_ they were bred in the first place, why would you continue the tradition?

Breeding, even when using the best on the best is a gamble, but at least using registered horses whose genetics are known levels the playing field more in favor of getting a useful animal who can live a long, productive life.


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## KrystaLake (Feb 12, 2010)

I honestly dont see a problem with it, if your not mass breeding and the foal has a purpose, I personally prefer grades as they are not bred to look like show horses, and after working at a show barn, they seem to care more about what the horse looks like instead of if it can function.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> I honestly dont see a problem with it, if your not mass breeding and the foal has a purpose, I personally prefer grades as they are not bred to look like show horses, and after working at a show barn, they seem to care more about what the horse looks like instead of if it can function.


Are you aware that not every registered horse is bred to be a show horse?


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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

I don't have an issue with someone breeding their own grade mare for a foal that they intend to keep......provided the mare has good conformation and they breed to a proven stud......not another grade. 

I do not agree with breeding grades to grades though......no way of predicting what you could end up with as you don't have a history on either side.

We bred our grade clyde/quarter horse mare that my daughter showed and won everything on at the 2'6" and 3' levels. We choose a Holstiener stallion because the type of foal you get is predictable as they breed true to type when breeding two Holsteinrs.........with this I felt that the foal would have a strong resemblence to the sire.

I think grade crosses are tricky at best......but there are things you can do to ensure you get a decent foal.

I know we lucked out but it took me two years of stud hunting to finally come up with what I thought would work.

Here is the dam










The sire










The offspring at 4.5 years


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## KrystaLake (Feb 12, 2010)

wild_spot said:


> Are you aware that not every registered horse is bred to be a show horse?



Yes I am, but most breeders go that way b/c thats what sells.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

KrystaLake said:


> I honestly dont see a problem with it, if your not mass breeding and the foal has a purpose, I personally prefer grades as they are not bred to look like show horses, and after working at a show barn, they seem to care more about what the horse looks like instead of if it can function.


I am not sure what type of show horses you have but all of mine function is very very important. I like my horses to look good but that does not bring home the money.

As to breeding a true grade horse. WHY?? There are plunty of registered horses out there to fit the bill. There are plunty of registered horses who have lost their papers thus making them a grade horse. They all can be great horses but they do not need to be breeding animals. Use them, love them, enjoy them, but do not breed them. There is so much that goes into breeding that there is no reason to be breeding grade horses to make more cheap horses.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

KrystaLake said:


> Yes I am, but most breeders go that way b/c thats what sells.



And why do you think that is?? Why do you think a well conformed well bred registered foal sells for so much more then a well conformed grade foal??


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

It's smartest to try to breed what sells when you are an intelligent person who has the choice to breed or not to breed.
There is a higher demand for show-quality horses. There is a huge surplus of grade horses and horses, many with faults, many of which you can't give away these days. Sometimes it's extremely hard to sell even a great horse who is grade. Heck, I'm having that problem as we speak.
If smart people who had the choice all bred only show quality registered horses, there would still be plenty of grades. There are a lot of people who are not smart. There are a lot of people who are careless.

I am a lover of grade horses. Every horse I've owned thus far has been grade and they have been excellent riding horses for me, extremely giving and intelligent and hard-working. I would not breed them for all the money in the world.
I tend to be more attracted to buying grade horses and horses with faults for riding because I like to do anything I can to give homes to horses that many consider "unwanted", but if I were going to breedh any horse I can guarantee I would only breed the best at whatever I was breeding for, registered conformationally correct successful horse to registered conformationally correct successful horse. It's what is best for the horse world in general, not just what sounds fair to the pretty grade horses out there. Those horses are more likely to have homes. Even if I were breeding for a foal for myself, you never know what might happen. If you need to sell that horse, you want to give him the best chance you can at a loving home.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I have zero problem with someone breeding their grades - _for a purpose. _For example, I have considered breeding my unregistered (and therefore technically Grade) mare to either a registered Arabian stallion or a Thoroughbred stallion. Why? Because I am thoroughly displeased with our Arabian community (we have nothing I want for sale) and we have ZERO Anglo-Arabs, which I personify as top notch sport horses. It would be cheaper for me to breed my foal then it would to import what I want from another province or country.

People are not attempting to be snobby about registered animals. It's not what the anti-breeding bandwagon is about. The point is that the USA in particular is completely overrun with horses in light of the closed slaughter plants. Combined with the crippling recession, and presto, you have a market for disaster. Registered quality weanling QH colts are selling for $50 at auction - what makes you think anyone wants your cute little baby?

Now, more then ever, it is IMPOSSIBLE to say "I will own this horse for life." It is a ridiculous and childish sentiment and statement and only screams of increased irresponsibility. You do not know what's going to happen in the future, none of us do. You could lose your job tomorrow while at the same being in a horrific accident that paralyzes you and now where is your ugly grade that you loved so much? Certainly not with others who love him, who has an extra $50 to spend on a spoiled 2 year old grade when they can pick something up 20x nicer then him for the same price?

If I owned a registered Paint mare right now, you couldn't pay me to breed her. I would breed my unregistered Arabian in a split second over any registered stock horse. Why? Our community is BALLOONING with them. Even as a weanling, I would have a market for my registered Half-Arab foal or Anglo-Arab foal. The animal I would be producing would be "rare" enough in my area to generate a ton of interest in it. I would ensure my product would have the BEST possible chances of moving into a useful life should anything ever happen to me. My registered Paint foal? I'd be lucky if I could GIVE it away right now - and our economy isn't 1/3 as bad as the USA.

At the end of the day, it has NOTHING to do with registered versus grade. It has everything to do with market and economy. Mass producing animals is a serious business and one very few of us take seriously enough. So many of us are APPALLED and DISGUSTED by the slaughter houses, and even moreso then anyone could STARVE a precious horse - and yet these same people do not even think twice before breeding some fugly little mongrol that nobody wants and ends up meeting the same fate. All for a cute little foal in the field.

Have a plan. Know your market. Know your product. End of story.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

Have many of you even thought about the fact that not every grade horse is of unknown parentage? I know ALL of my horse's pedigree, though she is a non-registered TB. She comes from excellent bloodlines and was simply not registered because of her size (too small for racing). I WILL breed this mare. Just because they are not registered does not mean they do not have a pedigree


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

eventerdrew, 

I think we're using different terms. An unregistered TB is an unregistered TB. There are tons of them, with known pedigrees, that owners don't send the fee in to the Jockey Club if they don't think they'll make it at the track. To me, that's not a grade horse, it's an unregistered horse. A grade is either wildly mixed parentage or unknown parentage. 

Very different to my point of view. 

So breeding your TB mare, registered or not, to a stallion that complements her to get a decent sport horse prospect, assuming she's well-conformed and athletic, makes some sense. 

AND if you had a grade horse of extraordinary talent or performance, then I'd been all for breeding it. I'd just want to breed it to a known quality, genetically speaking, to increase my chances of reproducing the desirable characteristics. 

The whole point of specific breeds and selective breeding in general is to produce a set of desirable traits by narrowing the gene pool to horses likely to express those traits in their offspring. 

So breeding a grade horse to a grade horse and expecting either 1.) predictable outcome in the offspring or 2.) a high quality performance horse doesn't make a lot of sense to me. 

But the horse world is full of people who love their conformationally incorrect, modestly talented horses and cherish them for reasons the rest of us don't understand. 

I find the long threads where everyone bashes a pet owner for wanting to breed their beloved mare distasteful. Not incorrect, just distasteful. And blaming those back yard breeders for the glut of unwanted horses and horses sent to slaughter while ignoring the huge numbers of distinctly not grade but badly bred/slow TB, SB and QH race horses dumped on the market each year is somewhat unfair as well. 

So if someone is determined to breed their grade horse, I'm not going to expend a lot of energy trying to convince them otherwise. However, I might counsel them gently not to expect world champion offspring.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

eventerdrew said:


> Have many of you even thought about the fact that not every grade horse is of unknown parentage? I know ALL of my horse's pedigree, though she is a non-registered TB. She comes from excellent bloodlines and was simply not registered because of her size (too small for racing). I WILL breed this mare. Just because they are not registered does not mean they do not have a pedigree


While I agree that there is a difference between unregistered and grade the fact remains that you might know the pedigree but you can not prove it. Especially in the next generation.


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## hillarymorganstovall (Mar 27, 2010)

My horse is grade with decent conformation, and even if she had amazing conformation I wouldn't breed her. There is already too many homeless horses in the world and just because you can breed a horse doesn't mean you should....


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

nrhareiner- What if you CAN prove the pedigree with something such as DNA testing? My horse is in the JC database, but is simply not registered.

maura- I have never considered my mare "Grade" but from the descriptions of some people I called her that for the purposes of this thread. But I do agree that she is just unregistered, not exactly grade.

My mare has been looked at by many trainers, breeders, and stallion owners. All whom have said they would definitely breed her. A Fine Romance's owner begged us to send Demi to him so he could get a TB foal out of her. 

I'm planning on breeding her to a nice sporthorse to get a horse that is a bit taller but has the same ability as she has.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

If she is in the data base and can be registered I would do it before I bred her. B/C at the end of the day although you might be able to prove her pedigree once you get to the next generation it would be hard. Plus what it would take to do that. You might not need it and what you want it might be enough but think about the next person. Think about what they want if they where looking at a foal out of your mare?? I know that over the years the Cutting industry did DNA registries with the ETs that AQHA would not let them register. Now these horses where very well bred you could prove parentage through the DNA registry. However the next generation was hard to prove parentage b/c the DNA registry was not the same as AQHA and the foals price took a hit b/c of it. Out side the cutting industry those foals where not worth much. Most of them where geldings so it did not matter much as that was the end.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

I cannot register my mare with the Jockey Club because the other reason she was not registered (either than being too small) is because of an unpaid stud fee. So, I don't really feel the need to pay Kiri's Clown's $8,000 stud fee 

If I end up registering her with the AWR or a sport pony registry, I don't see why the foal's price would take a hit. I mean, those registries aren't breed specific, so....

It's not like I'd be trying to get the foal into the Jockey Club! lol.


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## Janasse (Nov 22, 2008)

I haven't read all the posts so if someone else has already said this then sorry. To me saying that only registered horses should be bred is the same as saying that only people born into "royal" families should breed. Most people in the world cannot trace their lineage all the way back to beginning but yet we still breed, if we didn't then the race would die out. If we only bred animals that were registered like this makes them special then I think they would eventually die out, people couldn't afford them making the market drop even more and we would lose out on lots of good horses. Plus even if they are registered, you're still not guaranteed that somewhere in the line there wasn't a crazy old thing and that that gene would just happen to be passed onto your foal. So while I think that people breeding just to breed is wrong, it is not wrong if you breed two grades that are both proven to be sound, quality animals.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I think it would be better if you went back and read the entire thread. 

Comparing breeding people to breeding horses is not a useful or valid comparison. Eugenics is acceptable practice in breeding livestock and performance animals; not in breeding people.


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## Janasse (Nov 22, 2008)

I don't see the difference. Breeding one mammal is the same as breeding any. Why should having papers make a horse, dog, or anything so special? Even if it's registered you still don't know what you're getting. And yes there are plenty of registered horses out there for cheap but that's usually because there's something wrong with them. I have never come across a free/cheap registered horse that was sound enough for competition and grade horses can still compete just fine.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

First humans do not breed true. There are many reasons for this. Look the humans in respect to say 2 great athletes who produce a cluts. There are so many difference between the 2 I will not even go into it here.

As to not knowing what you will get when breeding to registered animals. That is just not true. If you really took the time and looked at what goes into breeding horses you would understand the difference and why starting with a known pedigree is very important. Do horses breed true 100% of the time? No. Are there exceptions to every rule? Yes. However the rule will win out a lot more then the exceptions.

Take a look at performance horses. Look at how they are bred and what they do. I can look at a pedigree of a horse with in my discipline and tell you what they will most likely be like based on pedigree. I can also tell you what the best and most proven cross on those lines will be based on past performance. You can not do this with grade horses. Conformation will only get you so much. If you could go out and buy a grade horse and take it to the futurity and win based solely on conformation and training there would be a lot more people doing this. As it stands there are very very few who do. Why?? B/C it is a very very long shot and when you are looking at $35K+ in training to get the horse into the show ring you want to start with best bet. That is a registered horse who is bred to perform in that discipline. Not the grade down the street.

Also give some thought as to why registers where started to begin with. Why they track earnings and get records.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Janasse said:


> I have never come across a free/cheap registered horse that was sound enough for competition.


Really? Because I have a sound, sane, _registered_ TB gelding who was given to me because his previous owner just wanted him to go to a good home. He's my up and coming foxhunter.

My trainer also got a free, sound, sane, _registered _TB gelding who will be competing in jumping competitions next month. I love JJ, but her horse is one of those who walks in the door, and all eyes are on him. I expect she'll do very well with him.

Don't make sweeping generalizations; they'll always come back to make a liar out of you.


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## westonsma (May 19, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> I know that over the years the Cutting industry did DNA registries with the ETs that AQHA would not let them register. Now these horses where very well bred you could prove parentage through the DNA registry. However the next generation was hard to prove parentage b/c the DNA registry was not the same as AQHA and the foals price took a hit b/c of it. Out side the cutting industry those foals where not worth much. Most of them where geldings so it did not matter much as that was the end.


This is exceptionally true, NRHA. I am witnessing these first hand in the cutting world... it's more common than I thought! The first three foals (2 ETs) were able to be registered, and were listed for roughly $60k apiece. The other 3 siblings, also ETs, but unable to be registered due to limitations were listed for approx $12k as coming 3 year olds. Even aside from the $36k in training per year (per horse!!) plus the cost of shows, and the equal or greater talent than the 3 registered. 

Even within the cutting industry it's causing a drop in prices. It will be difficult for those ET's offspring to bring much without the papers to back it up, because when that horse is 5 or 6 and so crippled it's not good for anything but riding out in the sand pit or walking to check the cows for 30 minutes, what purpose will it then serve? They're surely not going to breed it if it didn't prove itself. To take up space? To use a corral that could have saved another horse from starving that was worth its weight in performance? It's nonsense. 

And by the way, cutters have 2.5 years from the time they begin training to really prove themselves as cutters. Otherwise, are neutered, or sold. Some people will buy them if their bloodlines are spectacular, for breeding... to promote the horse's parents, the geldings sometimes go for other work if they're sound, but those mediocre so-so, "meh" bred ones? Yeah, tossed in the auction barn.

And if the horse isn't registered at all? Your target market is the non-performance family with the horses in the back pasture they ride a few times a month. The ones that are hand-fed, jump fences, and otherwise are good for nothing but taking up space.

It does happen. And it's a huge risk you take when you don't have a registry to put the foal in. Even if it's a half-this registry, or a half-that, at least you know one of the parents, and some of the general direction the animal should go. 

I would NEVER consider breeding ANYTHING not registered. Fish, dogs, horses, nothing.


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## Janasse (Nov 22, 2008)

nrhareiner said:


> First humans do not breed true. There are many reasons for this. Look the humans in respect to say 2 great athletes who produce a cluts. There are so many difference between the 2 I will not even go into it here.
> 
> As to not knowing what you will get when breeding to registered animals. That is just not true. If you really took the time and looked at what goes into breeding horses you would understand the difference and why starting with a known pedigree is very important. Do horses breed true 100% of the time? No. Are there exceptions to every rule? Yes. However the rule will win out a lot more then the exceptions.
> 
> ...


No not all humans breed true but neither do horses. If breeding was so certain then people would have never started messing win I in the first place. Yes I've seen 2 great horses produce a great foal but I've also seen 2 equally great horses produce a terrible , awkward foal. Same with people. I'm sorry but no matter how good a pedigree is there is no guarantee that that's what you will end up with! I am not promoting people breeding grades to sell but not everyone wants show horses and I you want to breed a good grade to a good grade for yourself then that's your choice and nobody has the right to say otherwise. I am leaving this debate and probably this site cause it never ceases to amaze me that even when someone asks your opinion you get jumped for stating it. If all you care about are perfect million dollar horses then your not a horse lover anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

What I care about is producing the best horse possible. That over 100's of years of breeding has shown that when you know a pedigree you are much further ahead then when you do not. That is why we track pedigrees. If they had no importance then we would not wast out money on registering them and tracking the info.

Also if any horse can produce a great horse then why do you not see more million $$ sires?? Same with dams.

Also if you are not interested in a debate that is fine. However that is what this question is about. Which will produce what you want more time then not. That has been proven time and time again to be a cross in which you can prove pedigree. With a proven cross.

I have a much much better chance of producing a foal in which will excel in what I want by starting with proven parents then I will by just going out and picking any 2 horses. This is more fact then fiction. Take a look at what wins at any discipline.

You say this is not about show horses. That maybe true. However if you do not show in some way how do you prove the horses ability past just hearsay? That is what competition is a way to prove what a person or horse can do. You can be the best basketball player that has ever lived. However if you never compete no one will ever know and you can never prove it.


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## Janasse (Nov 22, 2008)

nrhareiner said:


> What I care about is producing the best horse possible. That over 100's of years of breeding has shown that when you know a pedigree you are much further ahead then when you do not. That is why we track pedigrees. If they had no importance then we would not wast out money on registering them and tracking the info.
> 
> Also if any horse can produce a great horse then why do you not see more million $$ sires?? Same with dams.
> 
> ...


But this is not the point of the debate. Were not debating that registered horses are better but whether its wrong to breed grades. So depending onwhat your wanting no it is not. If you do not want a show horse then why should you have to buy a registered show horse. And its not that I don't want a debate but how can you have a friendly debate when you get attacked. Every post I see on this site turns ugly cause people start attacking others for their opinions and I'm done with it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

You do not have to buy a registered show horse, you can buy any horse registered or not. Grade horses are great. Love them ride them take care of them. However when it comes to breeding. Do not breed grades. There are enough as you pointed out that did not quite make the grade or have finished their show careers that can fill the need for recreational horses. Horses who have lost their papers and son on. You do not need to breed for them.


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## westonsma (May 19, 2009)

Thank you, nrha. Thank you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that it's usually the person losing the debate who makes a big huff, accuses everyone of attacking her, and then storms out when THEY started the entire hullaballoo in the first place? :lol:

Fantastic posts nrhareiner! We need more responsible people like you with a head on their shoulders - so many people get wrapped up in this "horses are pets" sentiment. You can love your horses and still be wise enough to ensure you're not only breeding marketable animals, but you're making money off them to boot!


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## Janasse (Nov 22, 2008)

First of all this is not the only post I am talking about people getting attacked and the others are not mine. Let me ask a question though, have you ever had a litter of kittens, puppies, or any other animal that was not registered? If so then YOU are saying that your an irresponsible breeder by letting that happened. If not then more power to you and it would be great if everyone could afford to pay the money that I'm sure you pay for your horses but for the rest of us that live in the real world and can't pay thousands for a horse and don't care much for the show world I am just stating our view. So no I'm not trying to make a "big huff" just get so tired of people getting WAY to defensive just because they don't agree with someone else. Neither one of us can say what's right


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## westonsma (May 19, 2009)

Janasse said:


> Let me ask a question though, have you ever had a litter of kittens, puppies, or any other animal that was not registered? If so then YOU are saying that your an irresponsible breeder by letting that happened.


Not an irresponsible breeder, but an irresponsible animal owner. But, kittens and puppies don't live 30+ years, either. AND people have an easier time having them in their home and caring for them than they do with horses...

Just a simple fact here.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Janasse said:


> First of all this is not the only post I am talking about people getting attacked and the others are not mine. Let me ask a question though, have you ever had a litter of kittens, puppies, or any other animal that was not registered?
> 
> *NO I have NEVER had a puppy that I bred that was not registered. I love every single mutt I have ever owned. However I have never bred one of them never even thought about it. They where ALL fixed by the time they where a few months old. Again it fall into the love them show them care for them but do not breed them. The dogs that I do have that I may breed are registered show dogs. They have several titles and are well bred well conformed and perform what they are bred to do. Will I ever breed them? Probable not.
> *
> If so then YOU are saying that your an irresponsible breeder by letting that happened. If not then more power to you and it would be great if everyone could afford to pay the money that I'm sure you pay for your horses but for the rest of us that live in the real world and can't pay thousands for a horse and don't care much for the show world I am just stating our view. So no I'm not trying to make a "big huff" just get so tired of people getting WAY to defensive just because they don't agree with someone else. Neither one of us can say what's right


Again you can find a very nice registered horse for under that price. Can you buy one of my prospects for that price?? No however they would not be for the norm. That being said I have sold some of my retired show horses for a very good price especially considering the training the horses have had. They where vetted sound and could have gone back into the show ring if the owners wanted to do so. SO again why would you want to breed a grade horse?? By the time you pay the stud fee and all the other costs of getting the mare bred and the foal on the ground then wait the year for the foal to hit the ground then the 2-3 years before you can train them then the actual training which even if you can do it your self will take time and money you have iinto that horse what I sell some of my retired show horses for if they are not going into my breeding program. 

So again I ask why breed a grade horse?? There are plenty out there for people who do not want to show. Go to Dreamhorse or Equine.com and do a search for registered horses under a $1K you will find more then you will ever need. Heck I can find 20 horses right now just in my area for horses under $500 on Craigs list.

It has nothing to do with wanting or not wanting a show horse. Most registered horses never set foot into the show ring. What it has to do with is producing the best horse you can and being able to track pedigree for a number of reasons. Again I have nothing against grade horses. Like I stated before. Buy them ride them love them care for them. Just do not breed them. Just like Mutt dogs need to be altered. They do not need to be bred either. Regardless of the fact that some of my best dogs have been mutts with no papers. Not a single one of them not even the ones who have been some of my best hunting dogs need to reproduce. I had no problems finding anouther great dog, training it to do what I wanted.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Janasse said:


> First of all this is not the only post I am talking about people getting attacked and the others are not mine. Let me ask a question though, have you ever had a litter of kittens, puppies, or any other animal that was not registered? If so then YOU are saying that your an irresponsible breeder by letting that happened. If not then more power to you and it would be great if everyone could afford to pay the money that I'm sure you pay for your horses but for the rest of us that live in the real world and can't pay thousands for a horse and don't care much for the show world I am just stating our view. So no I'm not trying to make a "big huff" just get so tired of people getting WAY to defensive just because they don't agree with someone else. Neither one of us can say what's right


You mean exactly like you're doing? I don't know how any human being can be so blind as to call the posts nrhareiner is making "attacking" and "defensive" - she is logically and calmly disputing the points you're making and waiting for you to provide evidence that refutes her opinion.

You are the one that is freaking out and making a mountain out of a molehill - never once has nrhareiner said you are wrong, she is just explaining why she feels she's right. If you can't handle that, maybe you shouldn't be starting debates with people.

nrhareiner is telling you why SHE won't breed unregistered stock and why YOU shouldn't. At no point does this make her right or prevent you from doing exactly as you please. I never understand how people don't understand the purpose of a debate.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I never understand how people don't understand the purpose of a debate.


Most likely b/c out education system and even our news outlets today do not teach or debate. They just bully and tell people what they (the news or schools) think you should think. Yet that is a subject for yet anouther debate.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

IMO, nothing should be bred for the next 3 to 10 yers... We have plenty of horses already. There are lots of good "family" horses out there, and even more "prospects" that just haven't been trained yet. The only horses holding on to their value anymore are those that are already trained, preferably with a show record. Even "well bred" foals have taken a huge hit in price... if they're selling at all!

So no, IMO, grades should definitely not be bred, right now. Sure, in a good market, if the horse has a proven performance record (beyond the local level), good conformation, and a good temperament, then okay, breed it. But ONLY if all three of those criteria can be met, papers or not.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

Super Nova said:


> The offspring at 4.5 years


He's cute, but oh boy, did he inherit momma's neck...


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Janasse said:


> But this is not the point of the debate. Were not debating that registered horses are better but whether its wrong to breed grades. So depending onwhat your wanting no it is not. If you do not want a show horse then why should you have to buy a registered show horse. And its not that I don't want a debate but how can you have a friendly debate when you get attacked. Every post I see on this site turns ugly cause people start attacking others for their opinions and I'm done with it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So what you're saying is that it's okay to breed two grade horses if you are not interested in producing a marketable foal with a traceable heritage indicating what the horse may be good at. I don't see the purpose of breeding horses if all you want is a horse. As you mentioned two superb horses can have an average foal. Why not buy that horse if you are not interested in performance.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I have a grade Quarter horse mare. We have a filly out of her. It was an accidental breeding. My sister has the horse (its the one in my avatar with the hat) We love them both & they are both great all around horses. I wouldn't do it on purpose though. There are just to many unwanted horses out there as it is.
Last auction we went to, papered nice looking broke to ride horses went for $400. The yearlings were like $50. 
With the market and registered horses selling so cheap, I just don't think there is a market for grade horses.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

There should be a correction made.

There IS a market for Grade horses - there is NOT a market for Grade FOALS. People seem to interpret the two as the same and they're really not. We are having a major issue in the economy right now with foal sales more then anything - people have taken so many hits on investment risks, they're leery to plunge into more. A weanling foal equals a loooot of years to feed with no return investment in an unstable economy.

I could flip any horse in our pasture for a pretty penny right now - all of them just Grades. People are on the market for well trained, dependable horses - whether it be for performance or show.

The point of not breeding Grades is that nobody wants the FOALS. Nobody is saying Grade horses are crap, they make awesome mounts, but we already have a massive population of them and we're flooding the markets.

It also depends COMPLETELY on area. Up here in Canada, we're nothing like you guys are in the US. You can sell just about any horse here if you go low enough.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Great point, MM.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

luvs2ride1979 said:


> IMO, nothing should be bred for the next 3 to 10 yers...  We have plenty of horses already. There are lots of good "family" horses out there, and even more "prospects" that just haven't been trained yet. The only horses holding on to their value anymore are those that are already trained, preferably with a show record. Even "well bred" foals have taken a huge hit in price... if they're selling at all!


That would depend on your discipline. With reiners reined cow horse and cutting prospects the market is still very strong for yearlings. Usually do not even try and sell weanlings. There has been a big drop in these prospects in the past few years. So the market for good ones is still very strong.

By not breeding for these prospects it would also decimate this part of the industry. With no prospects for the nest even 3 years that would end a good part of these disciplines along with several others. 

Also it MIGHT help the population of horses on this end but hurt it on the other end. Down the road you would have fewer horses which means few good horses which means you have put a big hole into the breeding of the better horses. There will always be crap horses.

Not to mention all the support industry. Will not even get into that.


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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

luvs2ride1979 said:


> He's cute, but oh boy, did he inherit momma's neck...


Yes SHE did........but the thing that makes her short neck work is that is it higher set and that she is so short coupled in the body that the two parts are actually not a bad match if you look at the complete package......on the other hand mom has an average length body but has short legs.

Super Nova


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## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

All i own are grades, i love them, compete on them win regularly on them but would i breed them....no. I think to bring unregistered foals into this world today is ultimately signing there life away its irresponsible. Every one on this forum knows people who had an average horse who got to old to ride properly so they decided to breed them this has resulted in weakening the gene pool of many desirable horses. 

I will get slated for this but i dont care! This market crash needed to happen all the weak horses which have drained our equine society and brought flaws though the generations have been removed from the gene pool this is going to help the industry strengthen and produce top quality horses instead of lots of poor quality horses. I dont want to come across as harsh as iv said before i have grades sure there lovely looking and preform excellent but you just do not know enough about the genetic inheritence to justify flaws being reintroduced to breeds which could effectively be removed when only approved horses are bred.

Sure registered horses are more expensive but your not buying unknown you can trace every genetic/personality flaw/attribute that is being passed down amongst breed lines.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> There should be a correction made.
> 
> There IS a market for Grade horses - there is NOT a market for Grade FOALS. People seem to interpret the two as the same and they're really not. We are having a major issue in the economy right now with foal sales more then anything - people have taken so many hits on investment risks, they're leery to plunge into more. A weanling foal equals a loooot of years to feed with no return investment in an unstable economy.
> 
> ...


Good point. Your right people will always look for dependable well trained horses.


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## Janasse (Nov 22, 2008)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> There should be a correction made.
> 
> There IS a market for Grade horses - there is NOT a market for Grade FOALS. People seem to interpret the two as the same and they're really not. We are having a major issue in the economy right now with foal sales more then anything - people have taken so many hits on investment risks, they're leery to plunge into more. A weanling foal equals a loooot of years to feed with no return investment in an unstable economy.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but to me nrhareiner was not calm or cool. Your argument I can go with. Despite how it might seem I do not breed any horse but actually have had 4 all registered but free for one reason or another. But I know how the economy is and I'd definitely rather see a pair of good grades bred vs a pair of random never touched ones bred which hdppens all to often. So sorry for being so bitchy! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Janasse said:


> a pair of random never touched ones bred which hdppens all to often. So sorry for being so bitchy!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Where did I ever say that a horse should be bred just b/c it has papers?? I have NEVER said that. To me a horse worth being a breeding animal is one who not only is registered but has out standing breeding and has proven with in his/her discipline that they can get the job done and stay sound doing it.


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## Janasse (Nov 22, 2008)

That's not what I meant. Just a general statement not directed at you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Super Nova said:


>


I wish I had a corral full of horses like this.


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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

kevinshorses said:


> I wish I had a corral full of horses like this.


Thank you so much for such a wonderful compliement........we are very lucky to have her.

Super Nova


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## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

I don't see anything wrong with breeding grade horses as long as they're built nicely and something is actually going to be done with them (trail riding, etc...).

I own a grade mare and we bred her five years ago (her son is now four and I've done all his training and he's one of the best horses I've ever seen in terms of mindset and general demeanor). I'll be the first to admit that my mare doesn't have the best conformation, but it's not bad either... and would I breed her again? Honestly, I don't know... I really want to breed her back to my gelding's sire, as I have unlimited free breeding to him for as long as I like, but if I do breed her again, it won't be for another couple of years. (for the record, my mare is grade, but she's purebred Walker and so is my gelding... I do like to stay within the breed...)

My best friend has a grade mare (she's quarterhorse/arabian/morgan/thoroughbred/walker)... she's bred to a Walker stallion and is due to foal in just a few days. Would I have chosen to breed that mare... no... but that's based on her personality more than anything.



As long as they're going to be used and they have a future before the breeding ever takes place (like the foal will be eventually used as a trail horse or something, has a 'dead-set' future) then I think it's fine to breed grade horses.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> There should be a correction made.
> 
> There IS a market for Grade horses - there is NOT a market for Grade FOALS. People seem to interpret the two as the same and they're really not. We are having a major issue in the economy right now with foal sales more then anything - people have taken so many hits on investment risks, they're leery to plunge into more. A weanling foal equals a loooot of years to feed with no return investment in an unstable economy.
> 
> ...


Very well said! I have two "grade" horses at my barn right now. One is an Appaloosa who's lost his papers. He is most certainlly 100% Appy, and probably foundation bred at that. The other likely started out life as a grade, some odd mix of something. Both are great horses and their lack of papers did not stop me from buying them for my clients.

However, if they were foals, I would not have bought them, or would not have paid much for them. Grade foals are a big risk. Looking at our local paper and craigslist ads, grade foals are anywhere from free to $150, and most aren't moving. Their ads come up over and over again. Foals with papers are advertised from $100 to $1,000 and seem to be moving a bit better, though the higher priced foals end up with repeated ads, usually at a lower price.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

Super Nova said:


> Yes SHE did........but the thing that makes her short neck work is that is it higher set and that she is so short coupled in the body that the two parts are actually not a bad match if you look at the complete package......on the other hand mom has an average length body but has short legs.
> 
> Super Nova


I was talking more about the bulk of it and the thickness of her throatlatch. It is well set and the rest of her conformation is nice, I agree.


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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

luvs2ride1979 said:


> I was talking more about the bulk of it and the thickness of her throatlatch. It is well set and the rest of her conformation is nice, I agree.


LOL that is certainly true!! And because of her short thick neck you would expect her to be stiff but she is surprisingly subtle and soft in the jowl and has good lateral flexion........unlike her mom

Super Nova


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> There IS a market for Grade horses - there is NOT a market for Grade FOALS. People seem to interpret the two as the same and they're really not. We are having a major issue in the economy right now with foal sales more then anything - people have taken so many hits on investment risks, they're leery to plunge into more. A weanling foal equals a loooot of years to feed with no return investment in an unstable economy.


Well said, MM. People DO buy grade horses nice looking and with good (mostly trail riding) training all the time around here (I know couple barns oriented on trail horses). In fact even paying really good money for some of them. But yes, noone is interested in youngsters. I'd say even youngsters with papers - they go for $25 - 50 at the local auction.


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## BennysLace (May 9, 2010)

My opinion with the market the way it is, and the economy the way it is many horses are being abandoned and so forth. Registered paper horses are ending up dumped along with grade. I think anyone needs to think twice before breeding any horse. As far as whether a horse is bred grade for you to keep because you love the dam or sire whatever the case may be, it's iffy how many times have you heard someone say I'm gonna keep this horse forever only to fall on hard times and have to rehome them?
I have had wonderful grade horses(whom I would of never bred) more people are most likely gonna purchase a foal with a good set of papers then a grade with the same conformation. I hope this made sense.


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

Janasse said:


> I have never come across a free/cheap registered horse that was sound enough for competition and grade horses can still compete just fine.


My "Free" Registered AQHA mare is 100% sound for competition. She is 97% foundation bred and exceptionally well bred and put together. My 8 yr old neice is showing her this summer at our local county fair in trail class. She is a working ranch horse here and is worth her weight in gold. Would I breed her? Maybe. She is 15 now and if I do, it will need to be soon. Should I? I don't know. I'd keep the baby- but that would also mean that it would take a space in my herd for a horse that truly needs a home.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

To be honest, I'm not opposed IF and only if the owner is doing the research, and knows what they are breeding for...Some people don't have alot of money to spend on a high quality registered mare, but their own grade mare has desirable traits that they would like in an offspring. The Holsteiner cross filly is a perfect example of this. 

My own QH cross mare has a fantastic attitude, and good conformation, and somewhere down the line I would like to breed her to a TB or TB type stallion, in order to get a foal who I could do higher level dressage, and more jumping with. But that would only happen if I was in a position that I KNEW without a doubt that I could keep the impending baby. 

Now, if it's a breeder who is just wanting foals to make the quick buck...then no, regardless of 'breed registry' status, or lack there of, no, I don't think the mare or stallion should be bred.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

mom2pride said:


> Now, if it's a breeder who is just wanting foals to make the quick buck...then no, regardless of 'breed registry' status, or lack there of, no, I don't think the mare or stallion should be bred.


For me I breed with the intention of making money. If I can not make money off the cross I will not do it. To me a good proven cross with proven sire and dam will make you money.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> For me I breed with the intention of making money. If I can not make money off the cross I will not do it. To me a good proven cross with proven sire and dam will make you money.


However, you know your horses are actually 'quality', and have desirable traits, conformation, and temperments, that to me is indictive of a good breeder. You are trying to make money off the foals, BUT you actually have foals that should do well in different events, simply because they have been bred well, regardless of 'grade' or purebred status. 

There's a big difference between a breeder who knows what they are breeding for and have matched up nicely conformed athletic parents, and kind of know what the resulting foal should be like, and the breeder who takes a pretty colored mare, and breeds her to another pretty colored stud...'just' because the foal might be cute, and make a few dollars for them.


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## hillarymorganstovall (Mar 27, 2010)

I don't remember why they wanted to breed the two horses in the first place, and I cant think of a reason for the life of me they should... not to be mean, but like I already said their are too many homeless horses in the world, and like so many others said there is N0 market for foals right now.... any foals, unless they're like 50,000 dollar plus... nobody wants to pump money into a horse they can't ride or will have to pump even more money for training.... That goes for untrained adult horses as well, and cripple horses, and old horses, and spooky, and aggressive, and too fast, and too slow, and cribbers, and any other UNDESIRABLE trait or vice.... 

If you have decided to breed for sure, you should realize that if you cannot provide the foal a forever home it has a HUGE chance of ending up in a slaughter house or wasting away in a field somewhere. A forever home is not you friend who will promise to LUV it and give it away when they get tired of it, or GROW OUT OF IT like a shirt... The only forever home you can be sure of is your's!! If it ends up murdered in canada or mexico, that's your fault....

I'll get off my soap box, but I do hope you realize that often the consequence of a poor market for a horse is not just losing money, it could be the death of the foal...

If you don't just plan on selling, but want a project, consider adopting an untrained horse or buying one at auction or on craigslist, or in your local paper. 

If you just want a baby, It's nurse mare season!!! Hundreds of foals are rescued, left for dead, or sent to the killers for their skin because they take their momma away to nurse expensive foals. 

If you want a momma baby combo, go to the auction!! Momma baby combos go through constantly this time of year, they have the same unfortunate fate as the ones above... also check out the classifieds again....

If you want the whole experience bet a pregnant mare!!! Believe it or not, the same irresponsible folks that are selling an OOPS baby this year will be selling their mare after the OOPS breeding later this year or next year... So.........Go to the auction or.........check the classifieds!!!! See there is no reason for an inexperienced breeder to breed an unmarketable horse!!!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

mom2pride said:


> However, you know your horses are actually 'quality', and have desirable traits, conformation, and temperments, that to me is indictive of a good breeder. You are trying to make money off the foals, BUT you actually have foals that should do well in different events, simply because they have been bred well, regardless of 'grade' or purebred status.
> 
> There's a big difference between a breeder who knows what they are breeding for and have matched up nicely conformed athletic parents, and kind of know what the resulting foal should be like, and the breeder who takes a pretty colored mare, and breeds her to another pretty colored stud...'just' because the foal might be cute, and make a few dollars for them.


While all this is true and I agree. There is also the fact that you take that same foal and take their papers away and you get a $50 foal not a $25K foal.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I guess that all depends on where you're coming from; I have seen alot more grade horses with conformation and temperments that I would be willing to spend alot more on than a reg'd baby that is priced as such just because hes reg'd. He may even have really nice confo, but if the grade horse is going to better suit my needs, you're darn right I would pay more for him.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

The thing you are forgetting is that with out the registration papers you loose a lot of info. The reason I can get $25K for a foal even before the mare is bred and that does not even factor in the stud fee that is my profit. Is the fact that you can prove not only the pedigree but the performance behind it.

So my point is you take the same foal. Lest say last years foal. Nothing different except the papers. With out those papers that foal becomes anouther $50 foal. With the papers it is a $25k foal. This is not me saying it it is the person who paid that for the foal.

Why did that foal command that price? First b/c of her breeding the fact that there are very very proven lines behind her and the fact that it can be proven. The foal for next year is also already sold for the same amount again pure profit. Dose not include the stud fee or breeding expenses.

That is my point. You start with good well proven well bred sire and dam and the foal will bring a good price. More in some disciplines then in others but there is still a very strong market for well bred foals.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

At the end of the day, the papers are money because of breed organizations. Nobody is going to spend $25,000 on a foal if they can't show it with the horses major breed organization - and as much as everyone loves our dear sweet Grade horses, you cannot honestly say you'd spend that money on an untested foal. You cannot show the resulting animal in the major breed organization to show off it's talents, and while you may get lucky and end up with a nice animal who does well in things like open breed rodeo event's or hunter/jumper for example, more often then not you'll lose money on loss of true breeding abilities - people just don't want to pay big bucks to breed to an unregistered stud, regardless of how talented he is.

There are obviously exceptions to this rule - plenty of talented and very expensive horses are Grades. But it took a ton of time and money to get them there, and I can guarantee most of those people didn't pay a whole ton for them as youngsters.

People just aren't going to spend the big bucks on a potential trail horse, and the show people aren't going to gamble with unregistered stock. A good trainer can take a lot of Grade horses and make them worth a fortune as an adult, but as I said, that's based on the horse being able to win money to pay for himself.

I've seen a LOT of Grades I'd buy over registered stock but it doesn't change the fact that they're worth less in general because you're limited to the types of shows you can do depending on your discipline. I paid a lot less for my Paint filly because she's unregistered, and therefore I cannot compete in Paint shows - I am limited to our very tiny community of open showing. I would have paid the extra bucks in a second to have her registered - not because I ever intend on breeding her, I don't think she's breeding quality, but because I would have loved the chance to compete in breed shows.

People with papers aren't being snobs - they're being RESPONSIBLE business people who know where the money is. Heck, half the free world seems to think you can't function in a relationship without that paper that says you're married, how on earth is this any different? It's just paper and it can mean the difference between life and death for a horse and that's just the cold reality of it.


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## hillarymorganstovall (Mar 27, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj, I think I agree with every word you said!! 

I don't show and I keep horses for their lifetime so papers don't mean anything to me, but almost anyone else that's going to pay the big bucks for a foal is gonna show it... Not many would pay 25K for a pleasure\trail horse let alone a pleasure\trail 'prospect'... Maybe a working ranch horse...

Like you also said, there are many WELL TRAINED grade horses that are worth their weight in gold, but it probably cost their weight in gold and sweat to get them at that training level, and you simply aren't going to have that with a foal!! 

Also, as someone else said, their are many grade horses with excellent confo, athleticism and temperament that some people would buy instead of a registered horse, but those people are few and far between. Most horse owners show or compete in some way, and you can't always do that without papers... While you may get lucky and be able to sell the foal, there isn't a market for it and it will take a lot of luck... And think about when the people you sell it to want to sell it, they (and more importantly the horse) may not be so lucky!!


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## DakotaLuv (Mar 21, 2009)

With a papered horse you are going to know what is behind it. You'll know what it was bred to do...racing?...cutting?..pleasure?...trail?...barrel racing?...jumping?...etc. You'll know where it was born, who owned it, when it was born, who the parents are, and that can lead into research of again..what it is bred to do, potentially, what its talents are likely to be. And in the research of what it's lineage is you will be able to come across any genetic defects such as HYPP or even something like a lethal white foal symdrome carrier. With a grade horse you don't know what the heck you've got. You may not even be certain of the breed. You just can never be 100% confident of what you are getting. 

Now I have nothing against grade horses, but there is a reason they started associations for breeds. I've owned grade and registered horses. Heck, I have a grade (supposed to be solid bred APHA, breeder never registered her) filly that I absolutely love, do I wish she was papered, heck yes, but she's not and that's ok. She's just for trail and ranch work. I'm never going to breed her. 

You are giving a foal a better shot at life if it is registered. There are a lot of people out there that will buy registered horses only. There are some people that don't care and will buy a registered or grade...doesn't matter. And there are very few that will shop for a grade only horse. 

I think it is selfish to bring a grade horse into this world when there are far to many out there that can't find homes. Put two foals next to each other, same build, same sex, same color, same everything, only difference, one has papers, one is grade. Which would you want more? I choose the papered foal.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

It also depends on how you go about getting the grade foal. If you have a grade mare that your niehbor gave you and your buddy's mare had a horse colt two years ago so you decide to breed her then you are being irresponsible. If you have a nice registered TB mare that has good conformation and breeding and has always been sound and sane but you want something with more muscle and heavier bone so you breed her to a Shire stallion that is also well bred, sound and sane then I would say you are breeding for a purpose and in all likelyhood because what you want is expensive and hard to find. The foals from both breedings will be grade but the second foal will be far more marketable and valuable its entire life.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> If you have a nice registered TB mare that has good conformation and breeding and has always been sound and sane but you want something with more muscle and heavier bone so you breed her to a Shire stallion that is also well bred, sound and sane then I would say you are breeding for a purpose and in all likelyhood because what you want is expensive and hard to find. The foals from both breedings will be grade but the second foal will be far more marketable and valuable its entire life.


I do not consider this a grade foal. This would be a cross bred foal and there are registries for that foal and a market for it.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

There is probably a registry for any foal if you look hard enough. I get your point though. It's the quality that matters in any horse but being able to trace a lineage helps marketability. Like you said about your $25000 foals being worth very little without the papers. The quality is still there and the horse could perform exactly the same but it would be hard to sell the POTENTIAL of the horse and when people buy untrained horses they are buying potential. I agree with you on this whole issue.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

The way I look at it. When you buy a grade horse (HORSE not foal) once it is trained you have a marketable horse. I look at those like I do geldings. Out side of being able to show at a breed show and not knowing their linage there is very little difference. If people treat their grade horses like a gelding then I have no problems with grades. Once they are trained there is a market. However like you said Keven when you are buying a foal yearling even a 2yo started or not you are buying potential. Having a know pedigree goes along way to knowing what is possible.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

A good example of this is in our major horse trading magazine, Horsedeals, this month.

There is a filly in there, a very well built thing. She is 5yo and has some solid s=training on her - Months spent mustering and now having polish added. She has excellent breeding as ASH go, she is a grandaughter of Acres Destiny (The flavour of the month atm) and other good ASH lines. Generally, a filly of this quality, breeding and training, would go for somewhere around 10k.

However, she is not registered. Her price is under 5k as a result. I love the look of her and passed right over her because of that one little fact. Any foals she had would be registerable as a first cross ASH at best, and she can't be shown in ASH shows. I think they will have trouble selling her.


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