# I love HSUS.



## alli09

Common Myths about Horse Slaughter | The Humane Society of the United States


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## kevinshorses

Just because they use the word *FACT* before thier statement doesn't make it true. You should look a little deeper before making up your mind. Even if I didn't own horses or care a lick one way or another about horse slaughter I wouldn't want the government telling me I couldn't ship my personal property anywhere I wanted for any reason. I have seen the horses that go to slaughter and they may be in good body condition but most would not make good riding horses. I'm not trying to start a debate because niether one of us are likely to change any time soon so I encourage you to look deeper into the issue and make your own judgements. Don't rely on any organization to tell you the truth about both sides of the issue.


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## alli09

kevinshorses said:


> Just because they use the word *FACT* before thier statement doesn't make it true. You should look a little deeper before making up your mind. Even if I didn't own horses or care a lick one way or another about horse slaughter I wouldn't want the government telling me I couldn't ship my personal property anywhere I wanted for any reason. I have seen the horses that go to slaughter and they may be in good body condition but most would not make good riding horses. I'm not trying to start a debate because niether one of us are likely to change any time soon so I encourage you to look deeper into the issue and make your own judgements. Don't rely on any organization to tell you the truth about both sides of the issue.


This is the Humane Society of the United States.There facts are based on what they've witnessed


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## MacabreMikolaj

You can't use "facts" based on what hasn't happened yet. Which is something they fully claim when it comes to a pro-slaughter opinion (ending slaughter will increase the number of neglected horses, no scientific evidence) and yet they use completely to their own advantage for any opinion they're trying to promote.

I stop listening to "facts" when they're obviously unsupported and biased.


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## Spastic_Dove

I thought it was interesting that they said 92 percent of slaughter horses were in good condition and then soon went on to talk about how they're all going to end up with broken bones and missing eyes...

What a load of biased crap.


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## MaloreyAnimal

HSUS is as bad as PETA, just so you know. I don't support either. Once you look deep into it, you'd see why.


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## alli09

They are NOTHING like PETA. They go around doing studies with horse slaughter and what they've seen is what they've reported on that site.


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## Spastic_Dove

What scientific studies have they done? 

I think HSUS is another organization that started out with good intentions but have gone sour. Only a small percentage of their funds (donations, fundraising, etc) actually goes to the animals in shelters and to -directly- benefit the animal which is why I dislike them.
You don't know where your money is going unless you skip the middle man and I think HSUS is a great example of that. 

They HSUS is not affiliated with actual humane societies. The are the most wealthy "animal welfare group" and yet they do not assist any animals. No Spay-Neuter clinics, no assistance to horse rescues, no education outside of propaganda. They have misrepresented USDA approved dog kennels as Puppy Mills and use smear campaigns to con people into donating money. 

Not to mention: 

We have no ethical obligation to preserve the different breeds of livestock produced through selective breeding ...One generation and out. We have no problems with the extinction of domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding.



The life of an ant and that of my child should be granted equal consideration.
- HSUS senior scholar Michael W. Fox 


They seem to be on the same level as PETA to me


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## alli09

well then you must not be talking about horses because horses are not livestock.They are companion animals and I think it's wrong that man turned them into what they have become.


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## SmoothTrails

alli09 said:


> well then you must not be talking about horses because horses are not livestock.They are companion animals and I think it's wrong that man turned them into what they have become.


They are both livestock and domestic animals, both of these were covered in that quote. They are also a creation of human breeding, so they are covered three times in that one quote.


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## Sunny06

OP:

By now you should know that topics about slaughter are just going to arise problems and make people angry. So, for the sake of the boards, would you please quit posting threads you know will end in a heap of bad feelings?

And yes, horses are most definetely livestock.


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## southerncowgirl93

One of my friends had all her cats and dogs taken by the HSUS. I was over there when it happened. She has a large farm, so, like most people around here she lets her dogs run free except at night. Well she had just put the dogs in the pen to feed them and keep them up for the night. Then the HSUS came and took all the food and water she'd just put out, dumped it and started recording, saying she never fed or watered her animals, that they were being cruely abused and showed a picture of one dog who she had just given a homemade haircut too and said it was about to die. The HSUS to me is just like PETA/.


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## LadyDreamer

_*FACT:* Hundreds of people in the United States are abducted by aliens every year and taken on outer space missions. Many have no recollection of the occurance, and wake up with headaches, soreness, or in a different position than when they fell asleep._ 

See, I can do it too.

HSUS is the same as PETA. They are radical fanatics.

From what *I* have witnessed, a lot of those "facts" are untrue. But they haven't updated that page for two years, so the "information" provided by that website is very outdated. I wonder what they would say two years later now that the neglect of horses HAS increased dramatically. 

I just wish people who believe this would open up their wide, lush, endless green pastures and take in a truckload or three of these unwanted horses.


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## alli09

SmoothTrails said:


> They are both livestock and domestic animals, both of these were covered in that quote. They are also a creation of human breeding, so they are covered three times in that one quote.


I mean they aren't livestock in the 'slaughter' part of it all.The only reason they are being slaughtered is because of overbreeding.


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## SmoothTrails

southerncowgirl93 said:


> One of my friends had all her cats and dogs taken by the HSUS. I was over there when it happened. She has a large farm, so, like most people around here she lets her dogs run free except at night. Well she had just put the dogs in the pen to feed them and keep them up for the night. Then the HSUS came and took all the food and water she'd just put out, dumped it and started recording, saying she never fed or watered her animals, that they were being cruely abused and showed a picture of one dog who she had just given a homemade haircut too and said it was about to die. The HSUS to me is just like PETA/.


I had a case that was just the opposite. Te people had dead horses laying in the pasture, and were putting out one small bale of hay for ten horses each week. There were two pregnant mares in the pasture as well. It took my father threatening to come out with a news crew to get anything done. 

In my area the HSUS has also been caught taking dogs and selling them. I will grant that it was because there were two bad apples, but that is what happens when they hired 2 convicted felons as the only animal control in the area!!


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## nrhareiner

alli09 said:


> This is the Humane Society of the United States.There facts are based on what they've witnessed


Do you realize that the HSUS runs no rescues they run no shelters they do not even fund any with in the US. There whole purpose for existing is spewing this crap. They take peoples money who believe they are helping animals by donating to what they think is the National equal to their local shelter but it is not. Is not nothing more then a money grab and policial tool.

They can say it is fact but dose not make it true as has been stated. There are a lot of people even respected people who say things that are not true. Heck look at Burny Madoff. He was saying that he could make poeple all that money. People gave them all they had for years. Did that make it true??? Oviously since he is doing time it was not true at all.

So not believe everything you read. Look at the sorce resurch the facts indipendatly and look at the motive of people who are putting the info out there.


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## themacpack

FACT - this is beating a dead horse (sorry, couldn't resist)
FACT - none of the "facts" listed on that link are, in fact, facts


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## kevinshorses

alli09 said:


> I mean they aren't livestock in the 'slaughter' part of it all.The only reason they are being slaughtered is because of overbreeding.


They are slaughtered because people all over the world choose to eat horse meat. You are a fool.


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## MacabreMikolaj

alli09 said:


> I mean they aren't livestock in the 'slaughter' part of it all.The only reason they are being slaughtered is because of overbreeding.


Is that a FACT?! :wink: ROFL.

Horses have been used as a source of food since the dawn of time. And they went the route of inhumane mass slaughter methods the exact same as every other animal we still view as food. If they're not being eaten by humans, then they're being used as a source of animal food. There's a guy by my grandpa's that raises Draft horses strictly for slaughter. He also buys and trades, but trust me, even if we removed every unwanted horse from the equation, there would still be horses to slaughter. It's an industry and it has a fuel.


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## Sunny06

kevinshorses said:


> They are slaughtered because people all over the world choose to *eat horse meat*. You are a fool.


Exactly. Bingo.


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## alli09

I'm not going to through out names here like most of you are doing, but horse slaughter has only been around since the time of the wars and even then it started because the soldiers didn't have anything else to eat.

and when you say they are slaughtered because people choose to eat horse meat.You are wrong there.That is why there are no slaughter plants open in the US now.Why is that? Why do you think that Natural valley farms was closed due to the welfare of the animals?!

do the math.


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## alli09

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Is that a FACT?! :wink: ROFL.
> 
> Horses have been used as a source of food since the dawn of time. And they went the route of inhumane mass slaughter methods the exact same as every other animal we still view as food. If they're not being eaten by humans, then they're being used as a source of animal food. There's a guy by my grandpa's that raises Draft horses strictly for slaughter. He also buys and trades, but trust me, even if we removed every unwanted horse from the equation, there would still be horses to slaughter. It's an industry and it has a fuel.


well I'm happy I live in a state where it is illegal to slaughter horses.Well, not only is it illegal to slaughter them, but it is illegal to consume horse meat here meaning that if anyone was caught killing horses PERIOD, they would be arrested. :lol:


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## Sunny06

alli09 said:


> .That is why there are no slaughter plants open in the US now.Why is that? Why do you think that Natural valley farms was closed due to the welfare of the animals?!


Because people like you got their noses in other's business, and now animals (horses) are going to _completely_ inhumane slaughterhouses in Mexico. Bravo! Give yourself a hand! 

And Nature Valley is a salad dressing factory or Granola bar factory I do believe.


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## Sunny06

So I can't have my horse put down? Or shoot it myself?


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## nrhareiner

alli09 said:


> I'm not going to through out names here like most of you are doing, but horse slaughter has only been around since the time of the wars and even then it started because the soldiers didn't have anything else to eat.
> 
> and when you say they are slaughtered because people choose to eat horse meat.You are wrong there.That is why there are no slaughter plants open in the US now.Why is that? Why do you think that Natural valley farms was closed due to the welfare of the animals?!
> 
> do the math.


You do realize that back in the Roman Empire they eat their horses as they traveled correct?? I will not get into all the details but if you really want to know the history of many of the early civilizations through out history you need to do some resurch. Humans have been eating horses since horses have been alive. 

The reason there are no plants that slaughter horses is b/c in the US there is no need to eat horses and over time is has become illegal to sell horse meat. Since we in the US have so much open land and horses where needed to work the large ranch's it was more economical to use horses and eat cattle.


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## alli09

Sunny06 said:


> Because people like you got their noses in other's business, and now animals (horses) are going to _completely_ inhumane slaughterhouses in Mexico. Bravo! Give yourself a hand!
> 
> And Nature Valley is a salad dressing factory I do believe.


I didn't have anything to do with that, thank you very much. And no, that is not the reason. They were being inhumanely slaughtered here when the slaughterhouses were open.

Natur*al *valley farms was a cattle slaughter plant(whe the US slaughter plants closed down this is one of the places where horses were sent to be slaughtered) in Canada that was recently shut down because of the way they were treating the animals.


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## kevinshorses

alli09 said:


> well I'm happy I live in a state where it is illegal to slaughter horses.Well, not only is it illegal to slaughter them, but it is illegal to consume horse meat here meaning that if anyone was caught killing horses PERIOD, they would be arrested. :lol:


I think you're as ignorant of the law as you are of spelling, grammar and animal rights. In California it is illegal to sell a horse for human consumption. It is not illegal to consume a horse that you own nor is it illegal to slaughter a horse for animal food.

By the way I'm glad you live in a state that the rest of the country is quickly learning to ignore. If California gets any more screwed up Mexico will be building a fence to keep you out.


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## alli09

kevinshorses said:


> I think you're as ignorant of the law as you are of spelling, grammar and animal rights. In California it is illegal to sell a horse for human consumption. It is not illegal to consume a horse that you own nor is it illegal to slaughter a horse for animal food.
> 
> By the way I'm glad you live in a state that the rest of the country is quickly learning to ignore. If California gets any more screwed up Mexico will be building a fence to keep you out.


you really are one of those people that get really angry during debates huh? So what if I don't do my grammar just right.OMG, I'm not perfect!! what am I going to do now?! and yes, here it is illegal to consume your own horse. There is nothing wrong with california.


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## Sunny06

kevinshorses said:


> By the way I'm glad you live in a state that the rest of the country is quickly learning to ignore. If California gets any more screwed up Mexico will be building a fence to keep you out.


Buahaha! :lol:

I hope this thread dosen't get closed.. Because it is plumb interesting.


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## alli09

too bad.**** I can't have a good debate on here without anyone burning me in some way.

PLEASE CLOSE THIS TOPIC!


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## Sunny06

Sunny06 said:


> So I can't have my horse put down? Or shoot it myself?


I didn't ask this to be snotty. I'd like an answer.


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## LadyDreamer

alli09 said:


> too bad.**** I can't have a good debate on here without anyone burning me in some way.
> 
> PLEASE CLOSE THIS TOPIC!


There used to be a debate section on The Horse Forum but it was removed. The Horse Forum is supposed to be fun, friendly, and informative. Debates only divide the community, and that is part of the reason the Debate section was removed. 

If you want a debate, go to Horse City. However, I will warn you, they are 90% Pro-Slaughter and you will get eaten alive. Either that, or plead your case to the Admin's and Mod's to bring back the debate section.


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## alli09

nah, I'm done on here.and what fun would a debate be with a anti-slaughter.

I want to have a 'fun' debate.Not one where they go for things about me personally.


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## nrhareiner

alli09 said:


> nah, I'm done on here.and what fun would a debate be with a anti-slaughter.
> 
> I want to have a 'fun' debate.Not one where they go for things about me personally.



Well when you get your facts straight then we can have a fun and informative debate.


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## alli09

My facts are straight! and even if I am a little out dated with my facts, that still does not give anyone the right to say anything about my personal life or where I live.


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## kevinshorses

Good luck with your one-sided debate.


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## LadyDreamer

It was once accepted as fact that the world was flat. Outdated facts are as good as wrong.


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## alli09

kevinshorses said:


> Good luck with your one-sided debate.


yeah, and good luck with growing up.


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## alli09

LadyDreamer said:


> It was once accepted as fact that the world was flat. Outdated facts are as good as wrong.


but if I don't know it is outdated that is not my fault.


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## kevinshorses

alli09 said:


> but if I don't know it is outdated that is not my fault.


No, that is your ignorance showing.


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## alli09

kevinshorses said:


> No, that is your ignorance showing.


there is a difference between ignorance and passion.


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## LadyDreamer

alli09 said:


> but if I don't know it is outdated that is not my fault.


Now THERE is a good debate topic right there.

If you do not know it is outdated then it IS your fault. It is your responsibility to do your research, and test what you find. The article posted was two years old, clearly posted at the bottom of the article, and easily found. If you run with what you read as fact without checking its information, than it is your fault. You are responsible for your knowledge and information. 

Your job for a debate is to find current information to post. You must know your topic in and out, and you should know your opponent's point of view. You must be able to trump anything they can throw at you. You cannot win arguments with emotion and belief. You must approach them scientifically with evidence to support your side.


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## nrhareiner

alli09 said:


> I'm not going to through out names here like most of you are doing, but horse slaughter has only been around since the time of the wars and even then it started because the soldiers didn't have anything else to eat.
> 
> and when you say they are slaughtered because people choose to eat horse meat.You are wrong there.That is why there are no slaughter plants open in the US now.Why is that? Why do you think that Natural valley farms was closed due to the welfare of the animals?!
> 
> do the math.


Ok here is what I am talking about these statements are completely incorrect.

Horse slaughter has been around as long as horses have been around. If you read what I posted about this you would get it but you choose not to respond. 

The US is the only country who dose not eat horse meat. Why??? I mean out side the fact that there is no real need to eat horse meat here in the US. There is more then enough land to raise cattle unlike other countries. We needed horses to work the ranches so they where more valuable as working animals/livestock then as for food. Americans are more sentimental then people in other countries. There are a lot of reasons why we do not eat horse meat.


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## kevinshorses

alli09 said:


> there is a difference between ignorance and passion.


Yes there is a difference. If you don't know that your facts are outdated or just plain wrong that is ignorance. If you had any real facts you wouldn't get burned so bad when you try to start an argument. If you could put together a coherent thought and spell better than a second grader that would help also.


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## alli09

nrhareiner said:


> Ok here is what I am talking about these statements are completely incorrect.
> 
> Horse slaughter has been around as long as horses have been around. If you read what I posted about this you would get it but you choose not to respond.
> 
> The US is the only country who dose not eat horse meat. Why??? I mean out side the fact that there is no real need to eat horse meat here in the US. There is more then enough land to raise cattle unlike other countries. We needed horses to work the ranches so they where more valuable as working animals/livestock then as for food. Americans are more sentimental then people in other countries. There are a lot of reasons why we do not eat horse meat.


and where do you get your facts from that it's been around forever?


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## alli09

kevinshorses said:


> Yes there is a difference. If you don't know that your facts are outdated or just plain wrong that is ignorance. If you had any real facts you wouldn't get burned so bad when you try to start an argument. If you could put together a coherent thought and spell better than a second grader that would help also.


last time I checked I can spell just fine. Stop saying stupid stuff like that.If you want to 'burn' me on how I didn't know laws have changed, that is fine, but don't go and say stupid stuff like that.


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## nrhareiner

alli09 said:


> there is a difference between ignorance and passion.



no not really. Most people who are passionate about something tend to ignore the real facts or only pick the ones that fit their ideas or what fits so their passion can stay intact.

It is great to be passionate about something. However make sure that your passion dose not cloud your judgment.

I will ask you something. You say you are passionate. SO have you taken in and cared for an unwanted animal. Horse cat dog??? Have you volunteered at a rescue or local animal shelter?? Anything that gives you info first hand on a local level. This will give you more incite into things then PETA or any other radical organization.


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## alli09

LadyDreamer said:


> Now THERE is a good debate topic right there.
> 
> If you do not know it is outdated then it IS your fault. It is your responsibility to do your research, and test what you find. The article posted was two years old, clearly posted at the bottom of the article, and easily found. If you run with what you read as fact without checking its information, than it is your fault. You are responsible for your knowledge and information.
> 
> Your job for a debate is to find current information to post. You must know your topic in and out, and you should know your opponent's point of view. You must be able to trump anything they can throw at you. You cannot win arguments with emotion and belief. You must approach them scientifically with evidence to support your side.


this wasn't suppose to turn into a debate, but they made it that way.


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## alli09

nrhareiner said:


> no not really. Most people who are passionate about something tend to ignore the real facts or only pick the ones that fit their ideas or what fits so their passion can stay intact.
> 
> It is great to be passionate about something. However make sure that your passion dose not cloud your judgment.
> 
> I will ask you something. You say you are passionate. SO have you taken in and cared for an unwanted animal. Horse cat dog??? Have you volunteered at a rescue or local animal shelter?? Anything that gives you info first hand on a local level. This will give you more incite into things then PETA or any other radical organization.


Just because I believe that some people in PETA have good intentions and they are nothing like the people that are going out and causing harm, does not mean that I support them. and yes, I have a pit bull that I got from a pit bull rescue and I have 2 cats that I got from the OHS.As for volunteering, I don't really have time right now.


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## nrhareiner

alli09 said:


> and where do you get your facts from that it's been around forever?



Well lest see the Roman Empire drank their horses blood and then when the horses where too weak to keep going they would slaughter then and eat them as they traveled. There are many other civilizations who eat horse meat. Like I stated the US is about the only country who dose not eat horse meat. That stems from the fact that horses where and to some extent still used to work very very large ranches which are not present in other countries.


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## nrhareiner

alli09 said:


> Just because I believe that some people in PETA have good intentions and they are nothing like the people that are going out and causing harm, does not mean that I support them. and yes, I have a pit bull that I got from a pit bull rescue and I have 2 cats that I got from the OHS.As for volunteering, I don't really have time right now.


That is great that you take in rescue animals. I have several my self and they make great companion animals.

As for PETA. Yes I am sure that at some level there are people who have good intentions. However the people who drive the organization at the highest levels only have their intentions in mind.

I have found over the years that the ones who boast the loudest about something are the ones who do not follow what they advocate.

Here is an example and I will not use names. I use to Drive Entertainer buses for years. One of the performers I had on for a tour was a big environmentalist. He did all kinds of interviews on how we needed to do this and that to save the planet. Back then it was not global warming but global cooling. Anyway after all his big talk you know what he did every night after the show??? He climbed on his PRIVET air plane and flew home and then the next day he climbed in his PRIVET air plane and flew to the next city. His bus that he leased with the big privet room ran empty to every city. Ya really good ha?????????????


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## LadyDreamer

alli09 said:


> *this wasn't suppose to turn into a debate*, but they made it that way.


It wasn't?

pg 3


alli09 said:


> too bad.**** *I can't have a good debate on here* without anyone burning me in some way.
> 
> PLEASE CLOSE THIS TOPIC!


 
pg 4


alli09 said:


> nah, I'm done on here.and *what fun would a debate be with a anti-slaughter.*
> 
> *I want to have a 'fun' debate.*Not one where they go for things about me personally.


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## Speed Racer

Alli doesn't want to debate, she just wants everyone to _agree_ with her.

A debate, little girl, is a civilized _argument_ between two parties with differing viewpoints. You need to research and get your facts straight, in order to _debate_ your _opponent_.

If all you want is to be told, "Oh yeah! Horsey slaughter is icky-poo, and the HSUS is great!", that's not a debate. That's just having everyone agree with your point of view.

Ignorance of the law is not an excuse. Ask any judge in any courtroom across the country. There is no such thing as an ignorance defense.

California has _not_ outlawed horse slaughter, nor have they outlawed personal consumption of horses. What they _have_ made illegal is the _sale_ of horses to kill buyers. A law without teeth, because there's no way to enforce it. The lawmakers put it on the books to appease the rabid, anti-slaughter advocates, _knowing_ it was unenforceable.

How old are you, anyway? If you're older than 15, shame on you for being so naive and ignorant of the laws of the land. If you're 15 or under, then you're just a child reacting emotionally, and can be excused while the adults speak.


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## Crimsonhorse01

I usually don't agree with Alli, but it is illegal to consume horses in California. Cali is the only state to have such a ridiculous law among other things...
Criminal Law. Prohibition on Slaughter of Horses and Sale of Horsemeat for Human Consumption.


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## Speed Racer

Crimsonhorse01 said:


> I usually don't agree with Alli, but it is illegal to consume horses in California. Cali is the only state to have such a ridiculous law among other things...
> Criminal Law. Prohibition on Slaughter of Horses and Sale of Horsemeat for Human Consumption.


 
I knew about the CA law disallowing the sale of horses to slaughter, but not that they'd also outlawed personal consumption, so thank you for correcting me Crimson.

California's full of lovely scenery, but is also full of fruits and nuts who don't have a clue how the rest of the country lives. Unfortunately, they also want to shove _their_ beliefs and opinions down our throats, instead of agreeing to disagree.


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## alli09

again, this was just showing how I like what HSUS was saying, but people had to turn it into a debate. I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anybody.You would know if I was.If I was I would be like you all should become vegan because... and this is why I think you should all agree with me. And I am not a fruit or a nut.I am just a compassionate person.


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## SmoothTrails

Also for the history thing (post #21). Horses were hunted before they were domesticated. They were hunted even before they got as large as they now are. 

Remains Show Ancient Horses Were Hunted for Their Meat

Prehistoric North Americans Hunted, Butchered Horses

"For most of human history, horses were seen as prey to be hunted for sustenance. During the late Pleistocene, around 55,000 years ago, Neanderthals scavenged off of horse carcasses and made occasional kills of their own. The upper Paleolithic, 35,000-10,000 years ago, marked the arrival of fully modern humans with considerable linguistic capabilities and increasingly complex weaponry. At this time, evidence for communal hunting can be found in Solutre in east-central France where 32,000-100,000 horses were killed at a communal hunting site (Olsen, 43-44). Furthermore, recent studies have shown that human predation may have been a major factor causing the near extinction of the species. In North America, both hunting pressures and climate changes at the end of the Ice Age caused the extinction of 35 genera of megafauna (mammoths, mastodons, stagmoose, giant elk, saber-toothed tigers, and equines). Horses would not return to North America until Columbus brought domesticated herds in his second voyage in 1494 (Budiansky, 40)."​ 
from Early Domestication of Horses​


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## nrhareiner

alli09 said:


> again, this was just showing how I like what HSUS was saying, but people had to turn it into a debate. I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anybody.You would know if I was.If I was I would be like you all should become vegan because... and this is why I think you should all agree with me. And I am not a fruit or a nut.I am just a compassionate person.



The thing is that what you seem to believe and what the HSUS is putting out there is just propaganda and not based at all in truth. If you are going to support an organization you need to make sure that the info they are putting out there is indeed fact and not just propaganda to make people feel bad or wrong about something.


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## Allison Finch

alli09 said:


> I mean they aren't livestock in the 'slaughter' part of it all.The only reason they are being slaughtered is because of overbreeding.


 
No, they are being slaughtered because people like the taste. There is a huge QH ranch between Montrose and Grand Junction Colo. that breeds horses specifically to be shipped to europe for the food market. They are really nice, healthy horses. There are also horse breeds in Europe that were developed as "meat" breeds. 

I'm sure the people get upset about any animal slaughtered. While we have a special affinity for horses, we need to acknowledge that they aren't just companions to everyone. If slaughter is to be done (to ANY animal) it should be humane and quick. We owe them that much.


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## Lis

Horses were first used as meat animals then we realised we could use them for transport. You're moaning that people are slamming your "facts" and saying you don't want a debate but then saying you do want a debate. Make up your mind then come back and debate.
Horses are slaughtered because people like the taste but in Britain there has never been much of a market for horse meat, one theory is that we are one of the few countries in the world to have a horse goddess which dates back to the Celtic times so it is an ancestral memory like Indians don't eat beef.


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## Sunny06

Me thinks people need to THINK before starting stupid threads.


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## MacabreMikolaj

^ Agreed.

If you want everyone to agree with you - write it down in your diary.


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## alli09

this isn't stupid at all.


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## kevinshorses

Speed Racer said:


> I knew about the CA law disallowing the sale of horses to slaughter, but not that they'd also outlawed personal consumption, so thank you for correcting me Crimson.
> 
> .


The sale of horsemeat is illegal but the actual consumption is not. So if you wanted to eat your own horse then that would be legal.


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## kevinshorses

Incidently, my cousin came back from spending two years in New Zealand and he said he ate alot of horsemeat while he was there. The U.S. is one of the only countries that don't consume horses. I would like to try it if it were available here. I imagine that it is quite lean and high in protien.


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## alli09

the reason why it isn't consumed here is the same reason why dog or cat isn't consumed here.They are a companion animal and it is illegal to consume it here in cali.


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## Sunny06

^ Is that a fact? Is it written in stone? Nah. I doubt it.

But it's plausible because so many people find slaughtering _anything_ cruel. What about capitol punishment? Is that cruel to you? What if they've commited no crime?


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## nrhareiner

alli09 said:


> the reason why it isn't consumed here is the same reason why dog or cat isn't consumed here.They are a companion animal and it is illegal to consume it here in cali.


No horse are NOT considered Companion animals they are considered Livestock. Why are they not used in the same way as cattle and other livestock??? I have some ideas one is the bleeding hart liberals who do not want it. If they had their way we would not slaughter and eat cattle pigs are any other animal. Plus the fact that they where so NEEDED in the early days of this country and there was no NEED to eat them.

As for Dogs not being eaten. Boy where have you been. That is a delicacy is many cultures and if you go into areas of the US who have the immigrants from those countries you WILL NOT FIND a live dog or cat. If they find one or get one they eat it.


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## Lis

I do always wonder what these people think will happen if these animals weren't bred for eating? They would be killed to make room for crops.


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## alli09

nrhareiner said:


> No horse are NOT considered Companion animals they are considered Livestock. Why are they not used in the same way as cattle and other livestock??? I have some ideas one is the bleeding hart liberals who do not want it. If they had their way we would not slaughter and eat cattle pigs are any other animal. Plus the fact that they where so NEEDED in the early days of this country and there was no NEED to eat them.
> 
> As for Dogs not being eaten. Boy where have you been. That is a delicacy is many cultures and if you go into areas of the US who have the immigrants from those countries you WILL NOT FIND a live dog or cat. If they find one or get one they eat it.


yeah because so many people consider livestock their best friends.They are companion animals.They have done so much for us! and for the dog thing, I was talking about in america.I know asia eats it.


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## Spastic_Dove

In America, dog is eaten as well in communities with high international populations.


The REASON dog, cat, horse isn't consumed here is because it goes against the cultural norm. 
Does that mean it's wrong? No. It just means its not our culture.


----------



## Speed Racer

kevinshorses said:


> The sale of horsemeat is illegal but the actual consumption is not. So if you wanted to eat your own horse then that would be legal.


Kevin, not in California or Illinois. I did some research, and as the law is written, the sale _and_ human consumption of horsemeat is illegal in both California and Illinois.

The other 48 states have no law against personal consumption, but the _sale_ of horsemeat for human consumption is illegal.

I live in Virginia, so there's no rule against me butchering and eating my own horses, if I so choose. If you live in California or Illinois, you don't have that option available.

I'd no sooner eat my own horses than I'd eat my dog or cats, but it's not my business to tell anyone else they can't eat theirs.

That's what I find reprehensible about this whole 'no horses to slaughter, but every other animal is fine to eat' opinion. Trying to force someone into doing what YOU want just because YOU want it, doesn't make your opinions or morals better than mine.

The feeling I get from all the hysterical equine anti-slaughter advocates, is that because I'm willing to concede that it's okay to eat horsemeat _if someone so chooses_, that somehow they're morally superior because they don't think anyone should eat the pretty horsies.

That if we don't decry the eating of horsemeat as horrible and evil, somehow we're unable to love or be loved, and we're inherently cruel and neglectful. _That's_ the attitude that turns my stomach, not that they're passionate about something.

It always seems to surprise the antis that those of us not against horse slaughter have our own cherished companions, and that we give time, money, and energy to rescues and animal shelters. Because that doesn't fit into their _ideal_ of pros as being heartless and cruel.


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## kevinshorses

California and Illinois have a long history of deciding what is best for thier subjects. I don't know how people can continue to allow thier state government to take away thier freedoms. 

I can't think of a time when I disagreed with you. If I wasn't already married to a great woman I might just propose!!!


----------



## nrhareiner

alli09 said:


> yeah because so many people consider livestock their best friends.They are companion animals.They have done so much for us! and for the dog thing, I was talking about in america.I know asia eats it.


Horse are livestock. I know I take them off on my taxes every year. You can not do that with companion animals. IN AMERICA they are they are considered livestock in ever sence of the word.

As for the dogs and cats. Yep I was talking about America. I have knows quite a few people who eat both dog and cat.


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## Speed Racer

kevinshorses said:


> I can't think of a time when I disagreed with you. If I wasn't already married to a great woman I might just propose!!!


Goodness, what a compliment! This old war mare is blushing. 

However, my SO _might_ object to your proposal, since I think that's what he's planning to do at Christmas.... :wink:


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## Allison Finch

When I told one of my students that I had eaten horsemeat in Europe, she was upset. I told her that there were times that I would rather eat HER horse than ride it.....LOL!

I doubt she saw as much humor in that statement as I did, though.


----------



## kevinshorses

Speed Racer said:


> Goodness, what a compliment! This old war mare is blushing.
> 
> However, my SO _might_ object to your proposal, since I think that's what he's planning to do at Christmas.... :wink:


He is a lucky man!! He better make it thanksgiving or he might be too late!


----------



## Alwaysbehind

Speed Racer said:


> I'd no sooner eat my own horses than I'd eat my dog or cats, but it's not my business to tell anyone else they can't eat theirs.
> 
> That's what I find reprehensible about this whole 'no horses to slaughter, but every other animal is fine to eat' opinion. Trying to force someone into doing what YOU want just because YOU want it, doesn't make your opinions or morals better than mine.
> 
> The feeling I get from all the hysterical equine anti-slaughter advocates, is that because I'm willing to concede that it's okay to eat horsemeat _if someone so chooses_, that somehow they're morally superior because they don't think anyone should eat the pretty horsies.
> 
> That if we don't decry the eating of horsemeat as horrible and evil, somehow we're unable to love or be loved, and we're inherently cruel and neglectful. _That's_ the attitude that turns my stomach, not that they're passionate about something.
> 
> It always seems to surprise the antis that those of us not against horse slaughter have our own cherished companions, and that we give time, money, and energy to rescues and animal shelters. Because that doesn't fit into their _ideal_ of pros as being heartless and cruel.


Another great post SR!!!

I personally think slaughter is a great end use for animals that are what one might describe as unwanted. A final use in a way.

Why is being sent to a landfill some how better?

Same with cats and dogs, really. We (general country we) PTS so many unwanted cats and dogs that are then dealt with as trash. Why not use the meat and sell it as a commodity to place that do eat such things?

It does not mean people have to give up Fido and Fluffy for burgers. It just means that there is a end use for the things that we as a society seem to have too many of.


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## Speed Racer

Always, it seems such a shame to waste so much protein, doesn't it?

The foxhunters used to donate their old horses to the hound master. The horse being fed to the hunt hounds was considered a fitting and dignified ending for an old campaigner.

In some parts of the U.S., horses are still fed to the big cats in zoos.

In Alaska, many of the unwanted horses are sold to the mushers (sled dog owners), to help feed their dogs. 

I don't see it as cruel; I see it as using a viable protein source.

The horses are killed humanely, and that's all that really matters.

As long as an animal is treated humanely before and during the slaughter process, I see no reason that the meat shouldn't be used.

Kevin, I'll let my SO know he has competition. Maybe that will speed up his decision. After all, I've been waiting for almost 4 years now! LOL


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## kevinshorses

Speed Racer said:


> After all, I've been waiting for almost 4 years now! LOL


Dump him and move west.


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## Speed Racer

kevinshorses said:


> Dump him and move west.


I'm not sure your wife would approve! :wink:


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## kevinshorses

Speed Racer said:


> I'm not sure your wife would approve! :wink:


Yeah dang it!!


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## Sunny06

^ Wow! We got a 2 timer!  Just kidding.


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## MacabreMikolaj

It's ok, just up and move to Canada! They never persecute polygomy, and I'm pretty sure these new arguements are going to legalize it soon! :wink:


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## Sunny06

^ Funny you mentioned that. I was wondering where that was allowed.


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## Speed Racer

I'd rather have polyandry, than polygamy.

Why should it only be the men who get more than one spouse? 

Besides, I don't _really_ like to share. 

Heck, I won't let anyone else use my toothbrush, so what makes 'em think I'll let 'em use my man? :twisted:


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## alli09

so I have a question for pro-slaughter people. You love horses a lot right? So you don't feel any sympathy for them for the way they are/were treated in/in transit to the slaughterhouses?


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## Crimsonhorse01

Have you not read the posts? Everyone that is pro slaughter said it needs to be quick, humane, and regulated. No animal should be mistreated.


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## alli09

but I mean since they do then why are people still for the abuse?


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## Lis

We're not for the abuse, we're for getting things changed so horses are put down humanely and don't suffer in transit.


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## alli09

but you are still for them going to slaughter now.That will never change.Workers will keep abusing them. Did you know it is a proven fact that people that work in a slaughter house are going to end up becoming very angry and violent people? That stuff takes a toll on you.


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## Crimsonhorse01

I don't quite know what you are trying to say. 
If your asking why we are pro slaughter if there are transporters that do abuse, than the answer would be they are the minority. The majority treat the animals humanely and with respect. The transporters that abuse the animals should be held accountable and hopefully loose their license.


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## alli09

I read a book on a woman that went to 3 slaughterhouses here in the US when they were open and did interviews with the workers and they all admitted to the constant abuse that was going on.


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## Crimsonhorse01

Did she had signed documents with those statements? I really don't believe everything I read. Anyone can twist and change things to meet their ends. I believe what I see with my own eyes.


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## alli09

Crimsonhorse01 said:


> Did she had signed documents with those statements? I really don't believe everything I read. Anyone can twist and change things to meet their ends. I believe what I see with my own eyes.


she probably does. She does this for a living and if I still had the book I would tell you what association she works for.It's not some 'stop animal slaughter' one, plus she eats meat and isn't against the slaughter of horses. The details were too gruesome to be fake.


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## Lis

If they go into that business then they should be fully aware of what they are getting into and yes they probably should have a counselling programme in place.


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## alli09

but they don't.You can't really say "oh I'm not for it right now because they are being treated inhumanely".You are for horse slaughter, so therefore you are for what is going on right now.


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## Spastic_Dove

Do you get any of your information from sources outside of radical groups, youtube videos, and other propaganda? 

Do you honestly think a single one of us wants to see a horse suffer?

I don't think you have read a single response here.


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## Crimsonhorse01

Nothing is going on right now because of...people... 
I was for the slaughter houses to be watched closer with more regulation when they were open. Now, I just want one somewhere in the US.


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## alli09

I was just arguing with people because of what they were saying so obviously I did read.I understand that you don't want to see it happen, but you are for the slaughtering of them.

that book is far from propaganda. It is true.

and the youtube thing, that was a DOCTOR that knows what he is talking about.


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## alli09

Crimsonhorse01 said:


> Nothing is going on right now because of...people...
> I was for the slaughter houses to be watched closer with more regulation when they were open. Now, I just want one somewhere in the US.


why? so the abuse can continue. Do you know who watches those slaughterhouses? The USDA. The USDA is in it for the money only.They could care less how the animals are treated.


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## Sunny06

> she *probably *does


This is not a valid arguement.


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## Spastic_Dove

Yes. Just like I am for euthanasia, humane slaughter of livestock, etc. 

That does not equal being for animal abuse. I have spent countless hours assisting vets, working in shelters, walking dogs, and homing/rehabbing animals. It's quite the opposite. 

Is the system perfect? No. But I would rather see an imperfect system within our borders that we can then regulate than allow animals to be butchered by non-experienced hands or starved.


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## alli09

as long as the USDA is in charge the abuse is not going to end.They could care less if the horses are getting to the stickers while being fully conscious.


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## alli09

Sunny06 said:


> This is not a valid arguement.


I really don't care what you think.


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## Spastic_Dove

...Do you care what any of us think or am I wasting my breath here?


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## alli09

yes I do care, but you obviously are not getting what I'm saying.


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## Sunny06

alli09 said:


> I really don't care what you think.


Then get off the forums 

Otherwise, you aren't going to get along with anyone. 

I promise you.

We don't put up with brats.


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## alli09

sorry, what I meant is, I don't care what *YOU *think.


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## Sunny06

^^



> We don't put up with brats.


Like I said.


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## alli09

there is no point in saying we, because it's just you and maybe 2 other people.


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## Spastic_Dove

No, I do understand what you are saying. I just disagree and don't think that pro-slaughter = pro-abuse.


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## alli09

I don't understand how that can be though.


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## Spastic_Dove

Im honestly not sure how to explain it to you in a way that hasnt been done on this thread already. Most pro-slaughter people are also pro-slaughter regulation. We fight to try and make sure that animals are killed in the most humane way possible while still being okay to consume and we work to prosecute those who do not follow regulations. That doesn't go just for horses but for swine, cattle, birds, etc. 
If it were up to me, it would all be done local. But since that is never going to be the case, we have to work with what we have. 

Since the slaughter plants in the USA have closed, exports to Mexico have increased 312% an amount of around 44,000 horses. Once horses leave our borders there is nothing we can do and that is why I want slaughter plants open here. 

What if we banned exporting the horses, consumption of horses, everything all together?: 

"The AAEP estimates an additional 2,700 rescue facilities would be needed in the first year of the ban to care for the thousands of surplus horses. The costs of euthanasia and environmentally safe carcass disposal can run as much as $400 and may be more than some owners are willing to pay. Making matters worse is a hay shortage, brought on by droughts, which is making it more expensive to feed horses." (AVMA.com)

Not only that, but until the world becomes vegan, there is always going to be horse slaughter. Here at least there are regulations and ways to prosecute those who are not up to standard. The same can not be said for local butchers and backyard slaughterhouses in Mexico and the rest of the world. Once we end slaughter (hypothetically) in America, I imagine you would want to move to Mexico, Canada, France, Belgium? What happens to the thousands of horses that go to slaughter every year? Obviously they do not have a good home waiting for the majority of them. Where do they go?

Right now, ending slaughter and the consumption of horses is not a feasible option if you agree with eating horses or not. Until we come up with a solution, our best weapon is to make sure the horses die as humanely as possible. The first step to doing that is keeping our horses in our control instead of exporting them for another place to deal with.


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## nrhareiner

See this is why slaughter horses need to be re opened and controlled. Would I love to see no need for a single horse to ever be slaughtered??? Yes I would love it if there was no need. If people breeding crap would stop. If the people who where breeding horses who where unmarketable would keep them until they where marketable but they do not. They pawn them off on people who either do not know any better or are trying to help but there are just too many end up like this.











Or maybe this abandoned horse.
Here is part of the story.

A starving horse was abandoned over the weekend in Kansas City.

Halfway Home Pet Adoptions said the horse was put into a dog pen on Sunday. A spokesperson said they are seeking monetary donations to help with food and the horse's medical bills.

The adoption facility is hoping someone will recognize the horse so they can locate the owner or whomever dropped it off.











Here is a link that is a bit old. 2008 however this is what is going on all over the country. People can not afford to care for their horses for what ever reason. 
Starving Horses Found At Carnation Farm - Seattle News Story - KIRO Seattle

My question to you is which is better. Which horses where abused and neglected worse?? Which horses are in more pain and suffering?? The ones in these picture and videos or the ones who go to slaughter???

I know I would never want one of my horses to be slaughtered. This is why I tell ANYONE how has a horse that I bred and can not longer care for it I will take it back. However if it came down between being slaughtered or starving like these horses I would much rather see them slaughtered humanly.


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## nrhareiner

Also it has been said several times here. Heck I know b/c I have pointed it out and so have others.

Livestock who are being slaughtered for human consumption must be slaughtered is such a way that it causes as little to no pain as possible. If an animal is in pain when they die the meat is un edibale. 

Cattle when they fall and brake a lag are not eaten they are burned or barried. Why?? B/C of the hormones reliesed. It taints the meat and makes un fit to eat. It takes about 3 days to get the animal back to where It would be fit to eat and that is imposible so they are put down and disposed of. Really a wast but that is how it is.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

Good grief, it amazes me how some people manage to stay as inside their own bubble as they can.

Not a single person on here has ever said they are FOR slaughter the way it is. We all want it changed - we just don't want it banned. Abuse will ALWAYS happen - you ride horses for gods sakes, and I guarantee either you personally or someone you've met has done something that could be contrived as "abuse".

Horses are wild creatures - owning them is abuse. Locking them in stalls is abuse. Putting bits in their mouths is abuse. See how easy I can take an arguement and twist it however I feel like? You then, are guilty of abuse. You are guilty of using "God's creatures" in a way they were not intended.

Don't start twisting words and putting them in peoples mouths. Ultimately, we all are out for the most humane treatment. We simply have different views on how that should happen. You, for whatever reason, think that slaughter will end all abuse of horses. You don't bother thinking past the present and what the future may hold. You listen to organizations telling you that nobody will ever let a horse starve and that everyone is a responible horse owner. You want to be narrow minded, fine, but don't accuse us of being "pro-abuse" because we see a bigger picture and we believe there are different methods to achieve the same result.


----------



## Allison Finch

I guess Allie needs to go back to the pro PETA thread. She, obviously thinks they take the moral high ground when they burn mink farms burning all the animals to death. A much better death than quick kill for fur (BTW, I am anti-fur)? I think not. I am not for any needless suffering. Keeping a sick, injured, neglected horse alive is abuse, IMHO


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## alli09

But as long as it exists the abuse is going to go on.There is never going to be a change in how the animals are treated.People become hostile in those places and they take it out on the animal.If a animal's leg spams and hits them they are going to beat that animal.They are going to tear limbs off of that animal. Most people that work in those slaughterhouses DO NOT CARE.

and for those pictures that were posted of the skinny horses, I wonder everyday why that hurts me just as much as it hurts any pro-slaughter person and yet I'm against the slaughter of horses 100%. Maybe because those horses don't even get a chance.Just because one person neglected them does not mean NO ONE wants them. There are a lot of people in this world that would have taken in the horses that were slaughtered, but sadly enough most of the countries population has no idea that horses are even being slaughtered for peoples tastes buds.It's all for profit.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

alli09 said:


> There is never going to be a change in how the animals are treated.


That has to be the most ignorant statement I've ever had the misfortune of having to read. I don't even know where to BEGIN with everything that's wrong with it. YOU'RE the one lobbying for chance, and yet when you don't agree with a change, it's never going to happen?

Women were never going to be allowed to vote you know. Change comes from having a voice, which WE ALL HAVE. Our voice is just different then yours. If lobbying can get slaughter banned, it SURE as heck can get more humane treatment into effect.

I don't even have TIME to list every single thing in history that was never going to change with the welfare of animals alone. We have made incrediable progress over the years over the treatment of animals and yet you actually have the nerve to say THIS could never happen?


----------



## kevinshorses

alli09 said:


> but you are still for them going to slaughter now.That will never change.Workers will keep abusing them. Did you know it is a proven fact that people that work in a slaughter house are going to end up becoming very angry and violent people? That stuff takes a toll on you.


I worked in a slaughter house for 10 years and I am neither angry or violent. You however, are borderline retarded if you believe the **** you are saying.


----------



## kevinshorses

alli09 said:


> there is no point in saying we, because it's just you and maybe 2 other people.


That would qualify as WE or US or from your point of view Them or They. These are what are called plural forms of common nouns. You will learn more about them next year in 7th grade.


----------



## kevinshorses

alli09 said:


> If a animal's leg spams and hits them they are going to beat that animal.They are going to tear limbs off of that animal. Most people that work in those slaughterhouses DO NOT CARE.


 
Most people that work in slaughterhouses are jsut like any other factory workers. They do thier jobs and do them as well as they can. If a dead animal has a spasm and kicks them they don't beat a dead animal. They go on to the next one and try not to get kicked next time. Most people do not want to hurt animals, that goes for packing house workers as well. They use that job to feed thier families and abusing the animals could get them fired. I'm not trying to convince you as I'm sure in your world believing that slaughterhouse workers are bitter, deranged physcopaths fits with your version of "facts". I am presenting this for people that would like to be informed and have an open mind.


----------



## nrhareiner

alli09 said:


> But as long as it exists the abuse is going to go on.There is never going to be a change in how the animals are treated.People become hostile in those places and they take it out on the animal.If a animal's leg spams and hits them they are going to beat that animal.They are going to tear limbs off of that animal. Most people that work in those slaughterhouses DO NOT CARE.


Funny if things never change they why did the state I live in just amend the state constitution to form a Animal Care and control board for Livestock and Poultry???


alli09 said:


> and for those pictures that were posted of the skinny horses, I wonder everyday why that hurts me just as much as it hurts any pro-slaughter person and yet I'm against the slaughter of horses 100%. Maybe because those horses don't even get a chance.Just because one person neglected them does not mean NO ONE wants them. There are a lot of people in this world that would have taken in the horses that were slaughtered, but sadly enough most of the countries population has no idea that horses are even being slaughtered for peoples tastes buds.It's all for profit.


Where are all these people??? Why are they not stepping up and taking these animals before they get that way??? If the add did not already expire and I could actually dig them up over the past month there has been at least 4 add on CraigsList for horses for sale that I would say from the pictures are a good 200-300lbs under weight. Yet I bet they are still standing in their owners pasture.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that there are more horses then their are homes for those horses and the ones that end up like that for the most part are the ones that are not useful with out some large investment in training and care. Out of the horses listed on CL here locally there are 23 horses just since Oct 26th and that is JUST in my local area not all of my state. Out of those 23 horses. only 1 count them 1 horse is very very well trained to the point you can put a kid on them and go show at a the level at which will demand the price they are asking and guarantee that horse a good home at least at this point in its life. There are 2 more that are trained to the point that I would consider them safe for a person who knows how to ride. The rest have no or very little training and several require an advance owner. Also out of those 23 add 2 of the add had multiple listings in it so there are actually a lot more then just 23 horses one add was for a local rescue. Again most of the horses they are trying to find homes for are older and are companion animals that can not be used for anything but recycling hay.

So where are all the people looking for horses??? Here are about 30 just posted on CL in the past week.

I know I will send all these horses to your house. As much as I would love to see each and every one of these horses end up with a human to love and care for them there are not enough people who have the resources to do so. As much as I would love to be able to take in and care for them myself I am realistic. My horses and my business MUST come first.

So AGAIN I ask. Which is worse???? A quick and 98% of the time painless death or standing in a field with no water and not feed starving to death????


----------



## Sunny06

kevinshorses said:


> That would qualify as WE or US or from your point of view Them or They. These are what are called plural forms of common nouns. You will learn more about them next year in 7th grade.


I might just propose to you as well! LOL. :lol:


----------



## Alwaysbehind

kevinshorses said:


> That would qualify as WE or US or from your point of view Them or They. These are what are called plural forms of common nouns. You will learn more about them next year in 7th grade.


Two thumbs up.

I never knew there was a requirement for a minimum number to make We and Us.

And silly me thinks it is obvious there are lots more than just two people that are making up that We.



Alli, are you missing the fact that there is abuse of just about everything every where in every aspect of life. 
There are trainers that abuse horses. There are people who abuse their kids, etc etc.

There is no aspect of life that is perfect. Well, unless you are you obviously.

I realize in your eyes every last horsie is extra special and should not be fed to someone. But just because YOU feel that way does not mean everyone else has to feel that way and has to agree with you. It does not make the other side of the coin wrong, it is just different.

Think logically for a minute. I know it is hard when you want to hate something, but just give it a try.
Do you really think the slaughter house workers want the process to be difficult? Would it not be easiest for them to have the animals pass quickly and move on to the next? Commotion at any step of the process is not will just make their day longer and more difficult.

Humane slaughter of anything is not evil.

And honestly, I do not think the term PRO-slaughter is accurate. I think we (that general group of us that is more than one people) are just not anti-slaughter. We see nothing wrong with humane slaughter.


----------



## Speed Racer

A big AMEN, Kevin, Nrhareiner, Sunny, Macabre, and Always!

Y'know Alli, I_ used_ to be anti-equine slaughter, until I stopped reacting emotionally and actually did some research and fact finding. 

My opinion came a full 180 degrees after I got away from all the propaganda, mud slinging, and downright lies from the anti groups.

You merely proved my point that you somehow think those of us not opposed to _humane _slaughter are subhuman, when nothing could be farther from the truth.

Instead of getting all your info from PETA, HSUS and YouTube, why don't you do some actual research? Read papers and findings by different people and organizations. 

Even Temple Grandin, although opposed to horse slaughter, would rather see it done humanely here in the U.S. where it could be regulated, than have the horses sent out of the country where we have no control.

I'm for the humane slaughter of _all_ animals, and that includes horses. Cows, pigs, chickens, etc. all have feelings, desires, and want to live their lives unharmed. They don't get that choice, but it's up to us to make certain that we give them as humane and swift a death as possible.

_No one_ wants anyone to abuse animals, and those who work in slaughter houses are merely people trying to feed their families and keep a roof over their heads, not bloodthirsty, abusive monsters.

I'm really trying to argue like an adult here, but your ignorant comments that those of us not opposed to slaughter are evil and abusive, really makes me want to ***** slap you.

How many organizations have you joined? I'm a member of the Virginia Horse Council. How many hours, money, and items have you donated to shelters and rescues in your area? I don't have a lot to give, but I do what I can.

You can ****, moan, and throw a hissy fit all you want on an internet BB, but until you're actually out there in the trenches doing something for the welfare of _all_ animals, you're nothing but a poseur.


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## kevinshorses

Speed Racer said:


> I'm really trying to argue like an adult here, but your ignorant comments that those of us not opposed to slaughter are evil and abusive, really makes me want to ***** slap you.


*Big fat ditto!!!!* But not because I worked in a slaughterhouse.


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## alli09

I'm tired of repeating myself so I'm done with this topic.


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## nrhareiner

The thing is you keep repeating the same B/S that is not based in Facts only an ideal fantasy world.

I have a friend who like to say that physically and therapeutically speaking that is how thing should be however we live in the real world and that is not how things are.


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## Speed Racer

alli09 said:


> I'm tired of repeating myself so I'm done with this topic.


And alli abandons yet _another_ thread, when it doesn't go her way. :roll:

I think we should all just ignore her from now on, people. She doesn't want informed, adult discussion, she just wants people to _agree_ with her.


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## Alwaysbehind

alli09 said:


> I'm tired of repeating myself so I'm done with this topic.


What a mature way to deal with someone who does not agree with you. :roll:


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## alli09

I have stated facts.Just because I get them from a book or sites that I know longer have does not mean they are not facts.


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## alli09

It's not that it is not going my way.I know there are a lot of pro-slaughter people and yet I argue, but when it come to the point where I just keep saying the same things it gets old.I might as well just copy and paste.


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## Spastic_Dove

When information is changed or outdated, the old information is no longer fact.


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## alli09

ok, some of that may be so, but I have stated facts that I can't really show anyone, so all I have to go on is knowing what I read.


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## kevinshorses

alli09 said:


> I have stated facts.Just because I get them from a book or sites that I know longer have does not mean they are not facts.


It does mean that we don't have to acknowledge them. I thought you were done with this thread.


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## alli09

and that is your problem and I have a right to change my mind after people start turning me into this horrible, idiotic person all over again.


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## Speed Racer

alli09 said:


> I have stated facts.Just because I get them from a book or sites that I know longer have does not mean they are not facts.


No dear, what you _have_ is propaganda.

If you can't _prove_ something with actual, logical, reliable, verifiable data, then it's merely hearsay and propaganda.

It used to be a '_fact'_ that the earth was flat, and the sun revolved around it. Once astronomers debunked that, it was no longer a 'fact'. It never _was_ true in any case; it was just what people _believed_.

A fact can only be proved by reliable, verifiable data. Just because you _believe_ something is true, doesn't make it so.

That's why we have _theories_ of things. The _theory_ of evolution, the Big Bang _theory, _the Parallel Universe _theory. _They've not been able to be verified, so can only stand as theories, and not actual facts.

P.S.--You're the one who's making yourself look idiotic, not anyone else. You don't seem to need any help in that area.


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## Alwaysbehind

And really, Alli, what did you think the response would be to a post that basically said we are all mean doody heads and you are not going to play with us anymore because we will not admit you know more than we do just because you say you read something in a book some where at some time?


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## alli09

find me where I said I don't care what you guys are all saying...The only reason I would say that is because I have read everything you all are saying millions of times and yet I am still against the slaughter of horses. Very strange.

and I wasn't saying everyone was being disrespectful, just a select few.


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## alli09

Speed Racer said:


> No dear, what you have is propaganda.
> 
> If you can't _prove_ something with actual, logical, reliable, verifiable data, then it's merely hearsay and propaganda.
> 
> It used to be a '_fact'_ that the earth was flat, and the sun revolved around it. Once astronomers debunked that, it was no longer a 'fact'. It never _was_ true in any case; it was just what people _believed_.
> 
> A fact can only be proved by reliable, verifiable data. Just because you _believe_ something is true, doesn't make it so.
> 
> That's why we have _theories_ of things. The _theory_ of evolution, the Big Bang _theory, _the Parallel Universe _theory. _They've not been able to be verified, so can only stand as theories, and not actual facts.


ok then here are a couple books for you to read of interviewers that atcually interviewed the workers and saw first hand what was going on.

*The Texas massacres - horse slaughter in America by Laura A. Moretti*

*Slaughterhouse by Gail A. Eisnitz*

what is said in those books are facts about what what really goes on in most slaughter houses in the US.


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## Alwaysbehind

Wouldn't it make more sense to be against inhumane treatment at slaughter plants of ALL animals?

Why ban slaughter? Why make it even more difficult for the horses in the long run? Do you not realize that now they have longer trailer rides to slaughter houses outside the control of our regulations where they are treated even worse than they are treated here?

Doesn't it make more sense to make the slaughter houses here better?


Unless you know a feasible (not butterfly and rainbow) way to deal with large quantities of unwanted horses really what else is practical?


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## alli09

You all keep saying that these horses are unwanted...Yeah, they are unwanted by the people that left them to starve.They are unwanted by the people in that same state.You don't know that they are unwanted by EVERYONE. Now that is something I love to see proven.

and I guess I'm this way because as long as I've been alive I have heard way more stories of animals(not just horses) being treated inhumanely in slaughterhouses to where I don't care about anything else.I just want it all to stop.


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## Speed Racer

Both of those books are biased and slanted to make slaughter look cruel and inhumane. They're also outdated, if I recall.

I can point you to any number of books about _any_ topic that will depict it in either a horrendous or a good light, depending on what agenda the author has.

I'm not talking about _books._ I'm talking about research papers and printed findings from universities and _unbiased_ sources. People and institutions who have no dog in the fight, and so can collect data and report their findings with no slant either for or against.

Read Temple Grandin's work. She's always been a big anti-slaughter advocate, but even _she_ would rather see equine slaughter here in the U.S. where it can be regulated.

I have a lot of respect for Dr. Grandin, even though she's anti. Her arguments are clear, concise, and to the point. Unlike yours, which just boil down to, "It's mean and cruel to eat horsies!"

Yes, there _are_ unwanted horses. There are a _glut_ of unwanted horses these days. Many horses are going for absolutely _nothing_ right now, and yet there are no takers. Why is that? Because NOBODY WANTS THEM!!!

In fact, I picked up my new foxhunting prospect last week for nothing, nada, zero, zilch. He's not a rescue, because his owner loved him and just needed to find him a good home. He's one of the lucky ones, because most horses who are giveaways _will _be sent to auction.


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## Crimsonhorse01

If there are horses being given away for free, left in fields, given to rescues, and left in trailers and NO one is taking them... Than they are unwanted. If people wanted them they would have homes.


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## Alwaysbehind

alli09 said:


> we all keep saying that these horses are unwanted...Yeah, they are unwanted by the people that left them to starve.They are unwanted by the people in that same state.You don't know that they are unwanted by EVERYONE. Now that is something I love to see proven.


You want to SEE proven? Open your freaking eyes. Look at any rescue. Look at the giveaways. There are TONS of unwanted horses.

It is funny that people always come back with the same asinine response, 'they are not really unwanted'. 

I went to a TB auction the other day where a huge quantity of the horses got not one bid. Some the owners tried to give away. Young, sound healthy horses. No takers. 

There ARE more horses than there are homes. Period.


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## alli09

Of course they are against the slaughter of the animals.Why? Because of the way the animals are being treated. People in those plants have complained about the animals being treated inhumanely and since the USDA is in charge nothing is being done about it.


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## alli09

Like I said, those horses are unwanted by people that are around that animal.

and horses are not being given away for free and that's the problem.I bet if people would stop trying to SELL the horses they don't want anymore and just give them to a better home this problem of 'unwanted' horses would disappear.

I know I'm not really getting anywhere with what I'm saying because I'm arguing with a bunch of people that are for the slaughter of horses, but I love to vent about everything.


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## Alwaysbehind

Um... call me confused.

If the people that _work there_ find the treatment of the animals to be inhumane then why do the people that _work there_ not treat the animals differently?

Sounds pretty simple to me.


And back to the thing that was said earlier...there are bad eggs in EVERY job there is. Do not judge the whole by them.


You are not getting anywhere Alli, because you are not reading. Did you read my post where these young sound horses could not be given away..... for free.... to a crowd of people that were at the sale for the purpose of looking for a horse.

Why do you not want to believe there are truly unwanted horses in the US? Does that ruin your butterfly and rainbow theories?

And not FOR it as much as not against it. Again, read for content.


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## kevinshorses

That's what this thread is really all about. Your need to vent and feel morally superior. I don't think you really care about horse slaughter as much as you like being on the "moral" side of the issue. I like a good intelligent debate but you seem to try and ensure that this thread is none of that. I hope that you will someday look back on this and see how foolish you are.


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## nrhareiner

alli09 said:


> You all keep saying that these horses are unwanted...Yeah, they are unwanted by the people that left them to starve.They are unwanted by the people in that same state.You don't know that they are unwanted by EVERYONE. Now that is something I love to see proven.


And yet I keep asking you and showing not just once but several times how many horses there are who need homes. Not just in my ares which as I posted already but in every area. So why would someone want to spend $2K to transport a $100 horse from my area to another are when I bet there are just as many $100 horses in that area. IT is not JUST about horses that are not wanted or have home in my area or state it is happening all over. 

The only market I have seen that is still strong and people will pay $2K to transport a horse is the $25K+ market those are still selling quite well. 

So again what is YOUR ideas for fining GOOD caring homes for all these horses who are looking for homes right NOW. Especially the ones who have no training no pedigree bad conformation and so on.

Again I have asked you this question many times. What is your idea for these horses. Do you want them? I bet there are people here in this forum that would help get these horses to you. 

You can not just say I bet there are people who would want them some place in this country. Give me ideas to get those horses to those people if they truly exist. Also then what about all the horses in their area???


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## Speed Racer

alli09 said:


> and horses are not being given away for free and that's the problem.I bet if people would stop trying to SELL the horses they don't want anymore and just give them to a better home this problem of 'unwanted' horses would disappear.


This proves my point that either you don't read anything anyone else is posting, or you have no comprehension skills.

There are _tons_ of free horses right now, and they're _still_ unwanted. People literally cannot _give_ them away!

Check any of the giveaway threads on a huge BB like COTH. There are _far_ more horses than homes available. Rescues are turning animals away because they're bursting at the seams, and can't take on any more.

Jesus please us child, stop closing your eyes and putting your fingers in your ears! 

Horses are being dumped onto other people's land, left tied to trees out in the woods, or even worse, starved and neglected because their owners just don't have the money to keep them in this economy.

No unwanted horses, you say? Biggest load of BS in the world!

Nrhareiner, oh _Alli _doesn't want any of these horses, but she's sure that someone, somewhere will take them! Because in her sunshine, lollipops, fuzzy bunny delusional world, because she _says_ so, that makes it true!


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## Spastic_Dove

This thread has pretty much run its course I think...
Allie lives in some sort of alternate universe none of us can comprehend where people aren't fighting to feed their families let alone their horses and everyone can afford to keep and take care of a horse or ten. 
In the world I live in, it's FACT that we have an overpopulation of mediocre horses and an economic depression with people. Those two do not mix. 

I want to live in Allie's world.


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## Speed Racer

Spastic_Dove said:


> This thread has pretty much run its course I think...
> Allie lives in some sort of alternate universe none of us can comprehend where people aren't fighting to feed their families let alone their horses and everyone can afford to keep and take care of a horse or ten.
> In the world I live in, it's FACT that we have an overpopulation of mediocre horses and an economic depression with people. Those two do not mix.
> 
> I want to live in Allie's world.


Amen, Spastic.

I want to live in that universe too, where every animal is loved and taken care of forever, where there's no such thing as pedophilia, child/spousal abuse, murder, rape, torture, job loss, financial hardship, foreclosure, or all the other 'icky' things that happen in the all too real world in which I live now.


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## Speed Racer

I think I'm going to try and avoid any of Alli's threads from here on out. 

They always turn into trainwrecks, and it appears all she wants to do is grandstand instead of actually having a lively, interesting, adult debate.

She's either a very young teen or a brain damaged adult, based on the hysterical, immature way she posts. 

Either way, I feel badly for trying to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person, and will try to restrain myself in the future.

Anyone see the movie _Idiocracy_? That's how I feel when I read one of Alli's threads.....


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## alli09

I've tried so many times to understand what a pro-slaughter person is thinking, but I can't.I can't understand any of it and when I try to I get put down.I have not once put down anyone elses beliefs and yet mine keep getting put down.Respect mine or leave!


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## alli09

and I must be brain damaged if I am so utterly confused as to why I'm being turned into a idiotic retarded person.


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## Alwaysbehind

You are simply not reading!

Or if you are reading you are refusing to understand what you are reading. 

No one says you have to agree on the end result. Just try to understand what is being said. 

Perfect example: You saying over and over and over and over and over and over again that there are no unwanted horses does not make it so. Is that so hard for you to believe? Do you really not see how many unwanted horses there are out there?



Again...Not Pro-slaughter just not anti-slaughter.


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## kevinshorses

alli09 said:


> I must be brain damaged I'm a idiotic retarded person.


 
Finally something we can agree on.


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## alli09

and honestly kevinshorses, I thought at first you were one of those little boys in your picture.Why say those things? I'm not saying anything like that about you.


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## kevinshorses

You wrote it. I didn't write it. Are you saying that words carefully edited and taken out of context can be untrue. Surely NOT.


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## alli09

yeah, read it again. You turned that into me calling myself that and I didn't.

I'm just doing this so this topic will hopefully get closed so I don't have to feel bad about my beliefs.

and you don't see jehovah's witnesses trying to understand what is going through a jew's head now do you?


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## Alwaysbehind

Alli, Life lesson #253 - Do not say something about yourself that is negative if you can not handle those around you agreeing with you.

I know, it sounds simple but sometimes it is hard. If you say, 'gosh I look fat in this dress' you can not be hurt when one of your friends says 'you are right'.



alli09 said:


> I'm just doing this so this topic will hopefully get closed so I don't have to feel bad about my beliefs.


I honestly do not think anyone wants you to feel badly about your beliefs. They just want you to base your beliefs on facts. Real life facts. If you are willing to still believe what you believe (slaughter being bad) after you have real life facts then fine. 
Another point is - just because you believe something does not mean it is fair to insist the world change to be how you want it to be. 
It is fine that you do not want to eat meat. But the rest of us like meat. Eating meat requires slaughter. As long as slaughter is done as humanely as possible why look down your nose and force your beliefs on the rest of us? We do not require you to eat meat you should try to make it so we can not.


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## kevinshorses

alli09 said:


> and you don't see jehovah's witnesses trying to understand what is going through a jew's head now do you?


Yes it's called being an adult human in the real world.


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## alli09

Alwaysbehind said:


> Alli, Life lesson #253 - Do not say something about yourself that is negative if you can not handle those around you agreeing with you.
> 
> I know, it sounds simple but sometimes it is hard. If you say, 'gosh I look fat in this dress' you can not be hurt when one of your friends says 'you are right'.


read what I said again.I did not call myself idiotic or retarded.


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## alli09

kevinshorses said:


> Yes it's called being an adult human in the real world.


my family's religion is jehovah's witness's and they do not even think about other religions.They do not even mention them.


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## kevinshorses

alli09 said:


> my family's religion is jehovah's witness's and they do not even think about other religions.They do not even mention them.


So it runs in the family.


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## Alwaysbehind

alli09 said:


> my family's religion is jehovah's witness's and they do not even think about other religions.They do not even mention them.


Is this where you get your closed mindedness from?

Your way or the highway?


I have some very good friends who are very knowledgeable about religions and who are very strong believers in their religion. None insist the others do not exist.


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## alli09

I hate what that religion has done to our family.It has literally tore it apart.I have no part in that. I am very open minded. Like I said before, everything you all have said I've read before and I've tried to understand it, but I can't.


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## 3neighs

This thread has run its course...


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