# 3 year old Thoroughbred filly



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Okay correction, the video is actually over a year and a half old and would have been one of the first times I introduced her to a saddle. She was a bit lame at the time, so it's not the best video to show her, but it does.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

here it is


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

I think this is a really nice mare that is not being flattered by the photo or her condition. She is underweight and dull looking in the top photo. Get her more groceries and back in work and she will look much better (like she did in the second photo). I would be wondering why she lost so much condition in 2 or 3 months between the photos?

I actually don't see a lot to fault her for. She is tied in at the knee making her cannon bones look light and pasterns perhaps a touch long and thin. A bit long through the coupling. Overall though this is a nice mare.

I didn't bother to watch the video since it is old and you said she was lame. It won't tell much about her Present condition and way of going.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I'd say it was just summer - full time 24/7 access to a roundbale - to winter. No matter how much I feed her, if she's not on a roundbale she's skinny. She needs crazy amounts of hay and unfortunately she doesn't go through them fast enough for me to be able to leave them out in winter. And I don't have a roundbale shelter.

She always has to have a little rib showing or she goes lame, it just looks okay when she's fit and muscled and not so okay when she's out of work and lacking in muscle. There's only so much I can do with a TB that has issues. The only thing I've found that doesn't send her lame regardless of quantity is hay.

I suspect she may have been a bit thrushy in a front foot in the video because when she goes lame it's usually in her offside hind, and is 100% a muscular issue, but that video definitely shows front end lameness. I think she ties up, and I think she's a lot more sensitive than most horses that do. She was a freebie so there were always going to be problems - I'm just glad that they're mostly manageable. She always looks amazing when she's in work and horrible when she isn't. I think she's just one of 'those' Thoroughbreds, with an extra little special need.

I'm trying to bring her back into work but that's difficult when I can only really get out to the stables on weekends. I've just bought a car though so hopefully things will get easier from here.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I found a shot of her looking good [in work, muscling wasn't so good because she still trundled around in giraffe mode back then] with no tack, it's not a great confo shot but it shows that she's ALWAYS just a touch ribby. That's the first one.

And I also dug out two photos taken on the same day as each other that show how quickly she can change condition!


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

I am no confo expert, but I am really curious by your saying 
"She always has to have a little rib showing or she goes lame"

Can you explain that to me? Genuine interest only


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

She has muscular issues in her back legs, I think she ties up or something because it's DEFINITELY feed related [protein mostly, but all grains do it and no-grain feeds have lupins in them, which she can't handle]. Vet thought she had OCD for quite a while, but if it was OCD she'd be lamer the more work she's in and she's actually sounder when she's in work - but that being said I still need to keep her just the slightest bit lighter on than I'd really ideally like her.

If she has too much weight on her [and for her too much weight is anything above a 4.5 out of 9 on the body scoring chart where 5 is ideal] her entire back end just cramps up. It seems to pull her stifle out of alignment, causing swelling and lameness as well as general hind-end stiffness. I get the same thing in my right knee.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

This isn't me having a dig, I'm just trying to process this. I'm always curious to learn more. I was always very lucky in horse ownership, and never encountered any serious problems...

If she has the problem with her hind end, at 3.5 years, and her back end is at risk or cramping up... why don't you investigate it further? I know you don't have the money for an instructor, and vets bills can be massive.. but I'd be more inclined to leave her in a field and let her grow a bit more, or wait until I had the money to investigate it.

Perhaps others will have an idea to do with the weight/stifle issue and shed some light on to it


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

If the horse has OCD that can be confirmed with Xrays. Seems simple enough albeit not inexpensive to do. Rule that out first.. then chase something else. No point in spending money on chasing something else if the answer can be found clearly with a few Xrays..

Interesting study here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8116209


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

Have you ever thought she might have EPSM? Tying up, soreness, unwilling to transition gaits, all sounds like EPSM, and episodes can be triggered by feed. That would be the first thought to come to mind. 

I think she looks fine a bit lean. I'd rather have a horse a little lean than a little fat, especially a growing one.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Thank you all 

Kayella, that's what I'm thinking. Whatever it is, it's manageable, so I manage it. If it becomes a problem again in future, I'll investigate. I just don't have the money to get x-rays done and my vet says because it's stifle [and she has a history of getting a bit free with her hind legs] it's a risky task to x-ray her and it's a joint that it would likely not show enough to be conclusive anyway. He'd do it, he just thinks it'd be a waste of money. I have considered ultrasounding the joint, though. That would show the soft tissue as well as bone.


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## Drifting (Oct 26, 2011)

I've never heard of EPSM, but I do know tying up is a symptom in PSSM. I don't know if TB's carry PSSM though.


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

EPSM and PSSM are basically interchangeable terms, Drifting. At least, that's what I've come to believe.


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## Drifting (Oct 26, 2011)

ah cool! See, you learn something new every day


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

EPSM - Equine Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy

PSSM - Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy

It's where they store excess/abnormal glycogen in the muscle, which is what I think leads to the tying up. Can be managed by a low starch, low sugar diet. I think supplementing fats, Vitamin E, and Magnesium also helps?


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Would that explain the "thrushy?" I was thinking about recommending a cleaner stall.


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## princessfluffybritches (Aug 10, 2012)

I thought EPSM was EPM, which brings that up or Lyme's. Bloodwork.


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

EPM is equine protozoal myloencephalitis(sp?), a disease contacted from opossums that attacks the nervous system. EPSM or PSSM is a genetic disorder.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

She's not stabled, Corporal  she lives in a pasture 24/7. Stabling is entirely unnecessary in Australia unless you have a show horse that you want to keep under lights so it doesn't grow a winter coat. Or your horse needs box rest [which she was on for a short time due to injury when she sliced her back leg open]. She had fungal issues on and off for about a year, starting with rain rot. Then she got thrush pretty much the moment the rain rot was gone, was fine for a while once that went away, got a random skin fungus, thrush again, was fine, thrush AGAIN, and has been fine since.

EPM isn't in Australia and she doesn't show Lyme symptoms [plus Lyme isn't supposed to be in Australia either... but it is].

Interestingly, she's fine with high starch and high sugar, but protein gets to her [although any grain will do it too, indicating that she has significant NSC sensitivities]. I've looked at all her feeds and used balancing software and her diet when she's lame is too high in protein. At her soundest she's on high fat, adequate starch/sugar, and "not enough" protein, which probably explains why she sits a touch light on when she's sound.

To my knowledge PSSM1 is rare in Thoroughbreds but has been found. However tying-up is common and isn't solely linked to what racehorses are fed, so theory follows that there's more than one PSSM gene.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

So does anyone else have thoughts on her conformation?

She's presently learning to be a dressage horse, but once she turns 4 she'll be started over fences and I'll go from there. I'm hoping she'll showjump and event. Depends on her attitude and whether or not she's a spooky nutjob on cross country.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Some shots from today.

She wouldn't stand still so this is the best I can do.

She is NOT lacking condition, just muscle. My vet is very happy with her condition.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Well here is what I have. Her neck is set a bit low from poll to withers. Her withers are a bit muttony but exist and carry adequately into her back. Her shoulder is a bit steep and the point of shoulder lays a bit low making the angle of the humerus a bit flat. She is built down hill from root of neck to point of buttock. Her forelegs are very very light boned and the slight tie in below the knee is not doing her any favors. Her feet look thin walled and from the front appear to be a bit "pancaked" as a result. 

Her coupling, while adequate, is a bit long with the point of croup a bit far back and the point of hip a bit far back as well. This leaves her hindquarters adequate.. or slightly less than adequate. Her stifle is a bit too high and bit far back and sets up the hind leg for being a bit over straight and her hocks a bit sickled. From behind her legs are correct. From in front, again, the spindly inadequate bone is clear. 

From the muscling in her neck and her "hay belly," she may be learning dressage but she is clearly not using her ring of muscles.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks Elana 

She is EXTREMELY unfit at the moment, has basically been out of work for 6 months due to a combination of my laziness and her young age, and therefore her musculature doesn't reflect her education. Fit and in work, she looks much nicer. As would any horse.

I'm aware she's far from perfect and very light in bone, but assuming she's properly and carefully conditioned, is there anything that would put you off jumping her at all? She's never going to be a trail horse, and not for lack of trying. Trails are supposed to be fun and on her, they're nothing but hard work. In any arena [even away from home] she's a dream. She wants to be a show horse.

Her feet are very thin walled, but rock hard. She's been barefoot her whole life. The fronts look pancaked because her farrier [me] has been lazy. These were taken about half an hour after her first trim in months. Before anyone crucifies me for that, she basically self-trims and only needs a touch-up with the rasp to make sure the balance stays good. I just wasn't doing that.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

With that light bone and possible OCD which has not been ruled out I would NEVER jump this horse. Even without the possible OCD with that light bone I would never jump this horse. 

Her heels are a bit under run. 

If this horse can keep her feet trimmed short on pasture "for months," she will probably need shoes if put in any sort of work. You will argue with that I am sure. 

I can tell you what I would do if she were mine and looked the same way she does in the photos in person. First I would get xrays to rule out OCD. If she has OCD she may show non laming lesions elsewhere besides her stifle. I would settle that question before going any further. If she has OCD then you know she has a very limited future. 

If she does not have OCD I would look further.. and try to isolate her lameness. 

After determining the source of her lameness and addressing it so she was sound, I would probably put shoes on her (if she were mine I always rode my horses so much that she would need shoes). I would work her in dressage understanding fully her limitations in that field. I would not jump her. 

That is me. She is your horse, so you do whatever you want to.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I can't really see how you'd keep shoes on feet with walls this thin to be honest. They're rock-crushingly hard, but she IS a Thoroughbred...

I feel like she wants to be a show hack and dressage horse, but she's been lightly free jumped and her form over fences is spectacular when she gets it right.

My vet has advised against x-rays and instead suggested ultrasounding the stifle. He said because of the complexity of the joint it's hard to see an x-ray properly, whereas ultrasound will show up anything in the soft tissues of the joint. He won't openly disagree with the other vet, the one who tentatively diagnosed OCD, but there's something that doesn't fit. Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part but if she has OCD then WHY is she sounder the more work she's in? That sounds more like tying-up to me.


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## millieyy (Mar 12, 2014)

I like her. Sure she is a little bum high and weedy on the back end and neck, but she will gain muscle if worked correctly, I like her head; well chiseled and she has a kind eye, she is beautiful! she looks relaxed and happy in the photos witch is always great to see!


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

Ok, this is not going to help AT ALL, but I knew a mare that sounded very similar. Unfortunately never had a conclusive diagnosis. The first thought was tying up, but a change in diet never really did much, nor did supplements or some fancy electrolyte balancing 'patch'. They tried multiple vets. Unlike your mare it didn't show as a defined lameness. One vet would think one thing and one another, first tying up, then lymes, then epsm, none of them ended up being conclusively diagnosed, she was always negative. 

Any how, I agree she is light on bone, before you ever consider jumping her you should try to diagnose the issue. Ultra sound sounds like a good place to start. even if she was 100% sound, I wouldn't jump her very high, its pretty demanding, even on a horse with fantastic conformation and lots of bone.

I don't actually think she's really thin. Many thoroughbreds tend to the lean side, and I've known several that always appeared 'ribby'. I would rather have a horse ribby than fat. Once you get riding again, get rid of the belly and get her muscled up, I bet she'll look great.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Many Thoroughbreds on the track have very thin walls on their feet and yet they successfully retain shoes. My Thoroughbred had thin walls on her feet and she retained shoes. If your Thoroughbred were sound and fast and on the track she would likely be shod.

As stated.. I rode so many miles on my horses that the shoes were worn out (yes, there were paved roads involved for a portion of that) in 5 weeks and there was never a re-set. My horses were used less in winter and were barefoot for 4 months of every year. 

I stand by not jumping this horse. I don't care how nice her form over the fence is. It isn't the jump that would hurt those legs.. it is the landing after the jump!


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks all 

I don't think that specific photo really flatters her legs. I'm sure she has more bone than THAT! If she was really as spindly-looking in real life there's no way I'd consider jumping her. That being said she is definitely light-boned... I just wouldn't have thought she was THAT bad. She'd be at the level of light-boned where I would make sure I carefully conditioned her [her joints are nice and large so the pressure on those wouldn't be out of order] but not where I'd reconsider my intentions for her.

Ultrasounding has the bonus of being much cheaper than x-ray, too, so I'll look into that once I've gotten her existing fees under control [bloody witch racked up over $4k in vet bills within 6 months of me getting her... horses!].

In Australia, Thoroughbreds on the track don't have to hold their shoes long. You see some really scary feet come out of racing stables. At least Magic has good hard feet and not feet that have the consistency of cheese.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

When you start with _so many physical ailments at this young an age_ and her light bone, it's hard to recommend that she could be athletic.
Keep her as a pet, use her lightly and enjoy her.
I'm not gonna beat on you for not trimming often. We ALL have to compromise on time and put the most important things, first.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Most of those were fungal, Corporal. One was an injury and of course a vet call at 6pm on a Sunday is going to be expensive - add to that 3 months box rest because she lacerated [but didn't sever, thank god] her extensor tendon, I probably spent more than half of those vet fees on her leg alone.

The one thing that I haven't gotten 100% diagnosed is the stifle/muscular issue, but it IS feed related, and she is sounder the more work she's in. In all likelihood, she just ties up. That was my new BO's first thought, and tying up is not uncommon in Thoroughbreds. It's very manageable. That being said, I will be looking into it in more detail when I have the money.


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## KWPNowner (Sep 25, 2012)

Like the very first poster, I think she's out together quite well. Her neck appears to tie in a little low, but I think that impression is exacerbated by her holding her head low. When she's pictured with her head higher her neck placement looks much improved. Her point of shoulder is slightly lower than ideal and her back is a little long due to a slightly long loin. Her bone is a little light but not lighter than that of many thoroughbreds I've seen - all of whom are in consistent work. Almost no horse has perfect conformation and most still lead productive lives. 

I don't see any reason that you can't introduce her to jumping, as long as her lameness is under control. None of the things you listed are necessarily career ending. I know a great little 1.10m jumper who ties up - they just manage it and she's very competitive. I also know many horses with OCD who have had very successful performance careers. One as an international level jumper and one as a GP dressage horse. The latter never had the OCD removed and it's never caused him problems. I also know a jumper who's done national level GPs with bilateral OCD in his stifles - not sure if he had the surgery or not. Certainly some OCD can limit a horse's performance career but there's a lot more to take into account than just the presence of OCD.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Thank you  I figure I'll take it very slow and gentle with her and condition her very carefully and if she even once shows signs that it's too much, I'll back off and let her be a dressage horse.


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