# Critique my gray Paint mare?



## TerciopeladoCaballo (May 27, 2012)

I feel like we've made good progress under saddle. The jigging was almost entirely gone and then we ran out of her liniment and MSM for a week and she crapped out o_o She tends to run away from her hind legs to avoid using them when they're sore, hopefully by the horse show date next week she won't be sore from the hock arthritis. She's a 12yo Paint, 15.2hh, has some Arabian and Thoroughbred in her from about 3 generations back. I'm using her primarily for English Eventing in novice levels, in-hand show, and trail. When she was a Western mount, she was a serious competitor in the barrel ring, so I want to go for speed events next year 

PREVIOUS:










This week:










So how are her angles and overall condition? For condition, is there any improvement since some months ago?


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## TerciopeladoCaballo (May 27, 2012)

*Bump :3


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## CCH (Jan 23, 2011)

Is your mare a cribber?


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## bhorselover (Aug 28, 2011)

shes cute needs some fat and muscle on her though


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## TerciopeladoCaballo (May 27, 2012)

CCH- no, she doesn't have any stall vices. Well-behaved yet sneaky booger. I think the somewhat odd neck muscle is because she is downhill built and isn't completely out of her habit of leaning on the forehand.

It's so strange to me that she actually needs fat! She's always been an easy keeper, but with the lack of rain we've had she doesn't have much grass to get fat on as per usual. I give her 3 flakes T&A and about 5 flakes coastal hay every day with 1 quart of 12% grain. Maybe I should bump up the protein level to help muscle? Or more hay?


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## CCH (Jan 23, 2011)

TerciopeladoCaballo said:


> CCH- no, she doesn't have any stall vices. Well-behaved yet sneaky booger. I think the somewhat odd neck muscle is because she is downhill built and isn't completely out of her habit of leaning on the forehand.
> 
> It's so strange to me that she actually needs fat! She's always been an easy keeper, but with the lack of rain we've had she doesn't have much grass to get fat on as per usual. I give her 3 flakes T&A and about 5 flakes coastal hay every day with 1 quart of 12% grain. Maybe I should bump up the protein level to help muscle? Or more hay?


I only asked because the underside of her neck is over-developed compared to the topline of her neck. This is common in cribbing horses. If you're working to build the top back up, you might want to look into working long & low over ground poles or cavaletti. Usually at a walk/trot to encourage her to lift her abdomen and legs while rounding her back & stretching down with her neck.


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## PurpleMonkeyWrench (Jun 12, 2012)

bhorselover said:


> shes cute needs some fat and muscle on her though


I don't think she needs more fat at all her weight looks pretty good to me.

oops I was going by the previous picture lol yea maybe a little more weight =D


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## bhorselover (Aug 28, 2011)

PurpleMonkeyWrench said:


> I don't think she needs more fat at all her weight looks pretty good to me.
> 
> oops I was going by the previous picture lol yea maybe a little more weight =D


In the second pic you can see her ribs and her tail bone is showing more then it should.


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## PurpleMonkeyWrench (Jun 12, 2012)

bhorselover said:


> In the second pic you can see her ribs and her tail bone is showing more then it should.


i know thats why I edited my post saying I made my judgement off of the first photo.


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## bhorselover (Aug 28, 2011)

PurpleMonkeyWrench said:


> i know thats why I edited my post saying I made my judgement off of the first photo.


Oh sorry didnt see that  ya in the first photo she looks great


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

She seems to have lost weight.. have you been working her more recently? Maybe need to think about upping her hay.

I like the slope to her shoulder, and has a really cute little head.

Her neck muscles aren't right... like my boy she may giraffe it up, or not carry herself properly through her back.

She looks perkier in her face but yah.. I'd like to see her on level ground where she isn't reaching like that in her hind end.


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## bhorselover (Aug 28, 2011)

You could maybe add a rice bran supplement to her diet I give it to my hard keeper and when barrel season hits I also add flaxseed. The rice bran supp I use is called Natural Glo by Manna Pro its really great and has added calcium.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

If she was recently on any antibiotics, she may need a 30 day probiotic supplement.


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## TerciopeladoCaballo (May 27, 2012)

Does her loin look good? I can't tell. 

My vet said to keep her thin rather than fleshy to avoid any surprise weight gain with the changes in grass, but yes, I want some more pounds on her because the ribby and pointy hip look is painful to look at. My farrier goes globally and says it's common for European sport horses to be on the thin side and the American horses to be the fleshy side. Meh. It's hard to get that ideal balance of not-too-fleshy and not-too-skinny.

We've been working on the long and low  She does like to be a giraffe, I only recently started setting barriers for that last month... She developed hock arthritis this year at 12yo and I've been loading her up with MSM which has helped SO much. She's somewhat cow-hocked and had a rushed training as a 2yo so I think that did her in so early :/ I think once she realizes that she can practice self-carriage without experiencing soreness, it'll be easier, as at the moment she tries various ways of trying to make me give her something to lean on--- I figured out the reason she was jigging sometimes, she wanted me to put on enough pressure for her to lean, because I only use enough force to break a horse tail hair when she is speeding and ignoring my lighter aid. She usually responds to light aid sensitively, it's just when she feels lazy she'll use me as a shortcut. I think it's okay to let her practice long and low on her forehand, slow, for a while until she can balance, and then ask for the energetic pace, right? Currently, she thinks that when I release the reins it's a cue to stretch, but raises her head more than not when I pick up contact or add pressure. My method is just sitting with the same small pressure and, if she doesn't respond for a long time, wiggle at the corners of her mouth, letting her have a loose rein when she lowers just a bit.

Her line of work is novice Eventing and in-hand showing, her showing history says she's a winner for speed events, currently she goes XC the best, she lives to gallop between jumps and reacts quick on her feet. I've been riding her for about 6 years, owned her for 2, she was such a nutty filly back when she was 7yo. Vet cleared her for performance as long as I keep giving her liniment, MSM, and constant work. She went off the treatment for a week accidentally, and went lame on her left hind leg, the worst leg :shock: ... but I put her on a new brand of MSM and vetrolin, she's doing brilliantly in just 4 days, no soreness besides a tiny twitch in her back muscles on the shorter side when I check for soreness there. It's hard to gauge how she rides, because she changes each time I get on. I would say more whoa than go but difficult to keep calm in energetic exercises. She doesn't buck or kick but tenses terribly if I let her go stiff. Haha, 6 years and I still don't have her figured out! Never getting rid of my best personal, 4-legged trainer.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

TerciopeladoCaballo said:


> Does her loin look good? I can't tell.
> 
> My vet said to keep her thin rather than fleshy to avoid any surprise weight gain with the changes in grass, but yes, I want some more pounds on her because the ribby and pointy hip look is painful to look at. My farrier goes globally and says it's common for European sport horses to be on the thin side and the American horses to be the fleshy side. Meh. It's hard to get that ideal balance of not-too-fleshy and not-too-skinny.


Let me stop you here.

The weight she is at right now is not acceptable. That is not thin, that is underweight. It's easy to keep them at a good weight when they are on a good diet and have regular exercise. I don't know why your vet/farrier said that.. to me that sounds kind of stupid. 


Any horse anywhere should be as close to ideal weight as possible (hence why it's called ideal.) Easy keepers (which apparently yours is not right now for some reason) are a little harder to keep from getting too fat, but there are ways to go about that which will help you manage their weight.

~~~

Before of Sky, when he was getting less than 3 flakes a day and he's around 17hh.










Not acceptable!

This is him now, 2 years later.










He is thin.. he is not fleshy. That's the kind of thin you need to look for.. not what you're at right now.

With the grass change, you can get a grazing muzzle or turn out in a dry lot or have restricted turnout in the pasture. Or you can alter the diet to allow for more nutrients in the grass. Certain times of the day the sugar content of grass is high, so avoid turning out during those times.

But I'm glad you agree she needs more weight.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Body condition is such an interesting topic. I agree, the OP's horse looked better in the first photo TO ME and my tastes. But I think she is right on the cusp of acceptable in the second photo. I mean, me, personally, I like a little flesh on them. But the second photo doesn't look bad.

Sky, I keep my horses a little more fleshy too. No skinny horses on my watch! :lol: So I think your guy definitely looks best in your second photo.  

However, I don't think he necessarily looked underweight in your first photo. I don't see ribs. Unfortunately I know people who keep their horses with less flesh on them than your guy in the first photo. Less fleshy than the OP's horse in his later photos, and work them hard. Sometimes I just cringe at the condition of some people's horses. I guess what I am saying is, although I prefer a little more flesh on them as you do, I can also see them looking like Sky in his first photo and that being acceptable. Maybe, just maybe, a hint of ribs is okay in a VERY fit horse (like a racing fit TB or an Akhal Teke). But for the most part, if I see ribs, it's just too thin for my comfort level.

I can see how perceptions may be different in other parts of the world due to what they are used to seeing.

I read somewhere that endurance horses with a fleshier body condition score do better than those with lesser body scores. So I do think a little bit of flesh is healthier for a working horse. And I prefer the look on any horse myself. :lol:


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## bhorselover (Aug 28, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> Body condition is such an interesting topic. I agree, the OP's horse looked better in the first photo TO ME and my tastes. But I think she is right on the cusp of acceptable in the second photo. I mean, me, personally, I like a little flesh on them. But the second photo doesn't look bad.
> 
> Sky, I keep my horses a little more fleshy too. No skinny horses on my watch! :lol: So I think your guy definitely looks best in your second photo.
> 
> ...


i think in skys first photo the horse was looking pretty under weight i bet from a curtain angle you could see ribd then. now he looks amazing and at the correct weight, everyone has diffrent prefrances on horses weight i think if you can see ribs they need more food or supps unless of course its a tb then most of the time there at a healthy weight and you can see ribs. and sorry for ant miss spellings my phone likes to auto correct me except its wrong grrrrrrr.
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## bhorselover (Aug 28, 2011)

i have a 15.1hh Quarter horse that i use for roping,barrels,poles,rodeos, and trails. He is a hard keeper in the summer i feed him 2 flakes one flake alfalfa one bermuda then one bermuda in the afternoon and then 1 and 1 again in the evening he also gets 1lb of Natural glo and 1/4lb of flaxseed, i dont really ride alot in the summer due to it being in the 115 range and still being 100 at night. in the winter i feed 3 flakes of alfalfa a day and always have bermuda in front of him so he can graze on it all day then i feed 1 1/2lb of Natural glo and 1/2lb of flaxseed, i ride him alot in winter and he burns lots of calories from the races.
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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

If she is developing hock problems, why would you want to use her in a speed event? that will just cause her more problems . I would be more concerned on that issue than her weight .


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## bhorselover (Aug 28, 2011)

stevenson said:


> If she is developing hock problems, why would you want to use her in a speed event? that will just cause her more problems . I would be more concerned on that issue than her weight .


yes that is a pretty big issue also the horse could run once and awhile just not all the time. my friends horse has hock issues but her horse loves to run barrels so she runs them about every 2 months or so but thats just one run not multiple and then she just uses her for trails after that.
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## topcatben (Feb 28, 2013)

She looks like she could eat a horse!! lol, but she is nice, and looks very pleasant.


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## TerciopeladoCaballo (May 27, 2012)

I thought about speed events not for me, but for her, because she was bred for it and has a big drive for it. I kid you not, sometimes she will gallop the barrel pattern around my above-ground pasture sprinkler poles when she is in high spirits, when turned out. She walks 80% of the time by herself, so when she does give a happy sprint she will always at least head for a pole or corner full-speed and then make a real b-racer's pivot around it, though I haven't done barrel racing with her ever, she started around 3yo and stopped around 5yo. Someone exhausted her in the ring, popped a colt from her, and sold her off where she was really only manageable as a trail horse as she was a bucking nightmare in the ring (until a GP show jumping trainer picked her up). The drive was so strong that when she was transitioning from western to english six years ago, her grand prix show jumping trainer used barrels and barrel patterns to help train and exercise her. Give her any set of barrels, she knows her way around them. It seemed to me a terrible thing to keep her from doing what she obviously loves to do, as I would note if she does this automatic barrel racing on her own, she must not mind the hocks... (though I would be concerned if the work would worsen the arthritis quickly.) Overall she's a clever, responsive mare, only needing two months to transition from Western bucker to English lesson horse, and I keep a listening ear out for what she may tell me. Sometimes I'm dumbfounded and don't know how to explain her, but hey, that's part of what makes me love her so much <3


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

TerciopeladoCaballo said:


> My farrier goes globally and says it's common for European sport horses to be on the thin side and the American horses to be the fleshy side. Meh. It's hard to get that ideal balance of not-too-fleshy and not-too-skinny.


European sport horses are not THIN, they are lean but well muscled, well fed and you wont see ribs anywhere!
This is a lean healthy looking horse


















Your mare is under weight and not carrying enough muscle.

Get some weight on her before you start working her to sort out her muscles.


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## TerciopeladoCaballo (May 27, 2012)

faye said:


> Your mare is under weight and not carrying enough muscle.
> 
> Get some weight on her before you start working her to sort out her muscles.


OK, thank you. You've elaborated your opinion multiple times. This is not a matter of persuading me, and I assure you hammering the same point is not going to achieve that. I respect your opinion, and that of the professionals I have used that know both my mare's history and myself.

It's a bit painful to hear repetitive crit that she is "too skinny" to lift a hoof, because I mysef struggle with anorexia and for the past year spent most of my time more than 20 pounds underweight, regardless of the fatigue I cared for my horse and my farm every day, and all that entails, primarily alone. To suggest the horse I see gallavanting through the pasture responding sweetly as usual to requests is a mirror image of what I was is poignantly wrong, at least from my side of the fence. But again, I appreciate the effort it takes to elaborate an opinion and it won't darken my day as I just recently succeeded in gaining enough healthy weight to be only 5 pounds under. Both my horse and I are "too skinny" but certainly we are together not sickly as per knowledge of the professionals used and the experience we share. Just as well, it is not a ribbon I am after. The event itself and what it represents personally for the two of us is what I find worthy enough to pursue.

If you feel so passionately about my horse's nutrition, feel free to aid me by providing resources or references and I will gladly utilize them.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

unfortunatly i doubt the feeds I would reccomend are available in the US.


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## howrsegirl123 (Feb 19, 2012)

Sickle hocked and butt high, but cute 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

TerciopeladoCaballo said:


> It's a bit painful to hear repetitive crit that she is "too skinny" to lift a hoof, because I mysef struggle with anorexia and for the past year spent most of my time more than 20 pounds underweight, regardless of the fatigue I cared for my horse and my farm every day, and all that entails, primarily alone. To suggest the horse I see gallavanting through the pasture responding sweetly as usual to requests is a mirror image of what I was is poignantly wrong, at least from my side of the fence. But again, I appreciate the effort it takes to elaborate an opinion and it won't darken my day as I just recently succeeded in gaining enough healthy weight to be only 5 pounds under. Both my horse and I are "too skinny" but certainly we are together not sickly as per knowledge of the professionals used and the experience we share. Just as well, it is not a ribbon I am after. The event itself and what it represents personally for the two of us is what I find worthy enough to pursue.
> 
> If you feel so passionately about my horse's nutrition, feel free to aid me by providing resources or references and I will gladly utilize them.


Hey now... some horses just need more feed than what their owner presumed. We don't wish to make this a sore topic.. but yeah. The fact remains you need to find some way to pack the weight on.

More hay is probably your best bet. Has she been wormed recently? Has she been given any shots, or antibiotics recently? What does her diet consist of? Maybe she's working too hard at the moment for where her weight is at, and could use a couple of days off until she has more weight.


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## bhorselover (Aug 28, 2011)

TerciopeladoCaballo said:


> It's a bit painful to hear repetitive crit that she is "too skinny" to lift a hoof, because I mysef struggle with anorexia and for the past year spent most of my time more than 20 pounds underweight, regardless of the fatigue I cared for my horse and my farm every day, and all that entails, primarily alone. To suggest the horse I see gallavanting through the pasture responding sweetly as usual to requests is a mirror image of what I was is poignantly wrong, at least from my side of the fence. But again, I appreciate the effort it takes to elaborate an opinion and it won't darken my day as I just recently succeeded in gaining enough healthy weight to be only 5 pounds under. Both my horse and I are "too skinny" but certainly we are together not sickly as per knowledge of the professionals used and the experience we share. Just as well, it is not a ribbon I am after. The event itself and what it represents personally for the two of us is what I find worthy enough to pursue.
> 
> If you feel so passionately about my horse's nutrition, feel free to aid me by providing resources or references and I will gladly utilize them.


Dont worry I know how you feel when I got my gelding I didnt know he was a hard keeper (because the lady that sold him to me said he was really easy) and I was feeding him like my previous horse that was an easy keeper. Well he lost about 50lbs before I opened my eyes and noticed he dropped weight. Now I realize that hes a hard keeper and feed him 24/7 Bermuda in a hay net, hes good about it and grazes on it all day. Also I HIGHLY recommend feeding Natural Glo Stabilized Rice Bran by manna pro heres a link Natural Glo Stabilized Rice Bran Meal, Pellet & Oil | Manna Pro 
I fed this to my horse and still do to help gain and keep his weight I feed him 1 and 1/2lb of natural glo and 1/2lb of flaxseed. I adjust his feedings in the summer when I dont work him as much. Good luck with your mare shes really cute


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