# "Ettiquette" with leasing?- leasor cut my mare's mane.



## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

I can completely see why you wouldn't like it, I wouldn't either. I think if it was a lease where you still had possession and you both used her, I'd be more upset. But since she's in their care and only they are using her, I feel like that's just their choice to make it easier for them to work with her. We all have our different preferences, but considering all the things that could happen in a lease, I wouldn't be as worried about this. Hair can grow back


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## GamingGrrl (Jan 16, 2013)

I think that it's rude that they did that without asking permission. I think that they should've gotten permission from you, or kept the mane as is. 
Luckily though, it is just hair, and will eventually come back.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

The fact that her mane is short isn't going to kill anyone, but it shows a lack of respect and consideration. I would have a serious talk with them and explain that they are to discuss with you before doing anything to alter the horse's appearance- be that through mane cutting, clipping, etc. A little maintenance is one thing, but not chopping it off. If I were to regain control over the horse at some point then I would demand that they regrow the mane and bridle path and maintain it properly, but since they are doing a lease to own I probably wouldn't go that far.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I definitely think it's rude. When I was leasing horses (granted, they were school horses and remained on property) I would have never dreamed of doing something like that.
I would say something for sure, and gently remind them that they can make such decisions (I know she wasn't harmed, but still) if and when they choose to purchase her.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Wow, talk about rude!! It is your horse - would they also breed her or something while in their care?
I would call and say either they can purchase the horse on the spot or she's coming home!

I don't even pull a mane on a training/sales horse without asking the owner first...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

We learned the hard way to put exactly what they can and cannot do in the lease. NO cutting of any hair on the horse without permission from the owner. (Arab mare had her mane, forelock and tail cut by 12 yr old. Mom of kid thought it was 'cute'. Owner was in tears. Mane cut even with GROUND - not equal length. Forelock gave a page boy impression, etc)

The lease also states NO [without permission]

Trailering off property 
Allowing others to ride
Tack changes

May seem like dumb things - but think about it. If it's just a lease, eventually the horse comes back to owner or goes to another person. Health, safety and integrity of training must be maintained!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I think I'm the only one that doesn't see a problem with it. If it's lease to own, then they are deciding if they want to own this horse. Hair grows back, I doubt they did this to disrespect you. Likely they just wanted the horse to look tidy. Maybe the mane got caught in the breastcollar and they were tired of dealing with it.

Either or, maybe just mentioning that you would like to know about changes made ahead of time, so you aren't left with surprises later


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

I remember reading a court case one time (in England; from the 1700s, maybe 1800s:shock and the premise was Party Two wanted to return a horse they had gotten from Party One as they were just trying the horse out and not buying it. Party One wanted his money as he maintained it was a bona fide sale. The judge ruled for Party One as Party Two had cut the horse's mane thus showing their intention to keep the horse.

I would be very miffed also, for what it's worth. So, I guess, what is the next step for you? As said by the other posters, I see options of a) the stern talking to, b) taking the horse back, c) asking for the sale to happen now. 

Please let us know how it works out.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Yeah, I'm not incredibly upset with them but I was a little put off by the fact that it was done without me being notified or asked. I realize it is just her hair and that her mane IS fairly hard to maintain, so chances are I would have consented to have it cut shorter if they asked, but not this short. I know it is a lease to own, so they will likely own her soon and it will be 100% their choice what happens to her hair, but there is no guarantee that they will buy her and if she comes back to me I'd really rather that her mane stay at least 6-7" long. 

I definitely don't think they did it to anger me either, they had nothing but good to say about my mare and about her training (done mostly by me) while I was there...I just don't want them to think that since they PLAN to buy her, that they can do whatever they want with her. In the contract I stated that all feed changes, tack changes, etc needed to be okayed with me, as well as shows, and I don't want them to think that since I didn't say anything about the mane that I won't say anything about changes to that either. I'm sure that the shorter mane/tail makes it much easier for the beginner lesson people to tack her up and such...

Thanks everyone. I think I'll make a call to them and let them know that I'm not happy about the hair cut, but that I'll forgive it if they agree to let me know before making any more aesthetic changes. And that iff they do anything else to change her appearance (I can't think of what they could do...but hey. I didn't think they'd cut her mane either) I may reconsider her lease. My contract says I can call it off at any time with proper reasons (lack of care, abuse, going against contract on their part, etc) so hopefully they'll be fine after this. I really do think they're a good fit for my mare and she seems to like it here (no easy feat. She's a crabby girl) so I don't want to be too drastic, but at the same time I don't feel like I should just let it slide either.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Oh man that would irk me like nobody's business.

But that being said mane is a little bit of a touchy subject with me.

Anyone remember Selena's pretty long reiner mane?










Yeahhhh.
It's been three years.
It's still not back.










That's really disrespectful, imo. A couple long braids is not hard to maintain.


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## TessaMay (Jul 26, 2013)

Because of the kind of lease it is-off property, full care, lease-to-own-I think I would accept it if it was my horse. I might be a bit peeved, but it is different then if they were in-barn leasing her from you. In general, the horses who I have known who go into full care leases like this, the leaser would be allowed to cut the mane, give a shave job, etc. without notifying the owner. 

It would have been the courteous thing to do to talk to you about it first though.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

Endiku said:


> Yeah, I'm not incredibly upset with them but I was a little put off by the fact that it was done without me being notified or asked. I realize it is just her hair and that her mane IS fairly hard to maintain, so chances are I would have consented to have it cut shorter if they asked, but not this short. I know it is a lease to own, so they will likely own her soon and it will be 100% their choice what happens to her hair, but there is no guarantee that they will buy her and if she comes back to me I'd really rather that her mane stay at least 6-7" long.
> 
> I definitely don't think they did it to anger me either, they had nothing but good to say about my mare and about her training (done mostly by me) while I was there...I just don't want them to think that since they PLAN to buy her, that they can do whatever they want with her. In the contract I stated that all feed changes, tack changes, etc needed to be okayed with me, as well as shows, and I don't want them to think that since I didn't say anything about the mane that I won't say anything about changes to that either. I'm sure that the shorter mane/tail makes it much easier for the beginner lesson people to tack her up and such...
> 
> Thanks everyone. I think I'll make a call to them and let them know that I'm not happy about the hair cut, but that I'll forgive it if they agree to let me know before making any more aesthetic changes. And that iff they do anything else to change her appearance (I can't think of what they could do...but hey. I didn't think they'd cut her mane either) I may reconsider her lease. My contract says I can call it off at any time with proper reasons (lack of care, abuse, going against contract on their part, etc) so hopefully they'll be fine after this. I really do think they're a good fit for my mare and she seems to like it here (no easy feat. She's a crabby girl) so I don't want to be too drastic, but at the same time I don't feel like I should just let it slide either.


I think that's a good way to handle things. Doing something like that without the owner's permission is absolutely inappropriate, but I'm sure they didn't think anything of it. After all, I probably wouldn't want to maintain a mane that long, either! Making your views very clear to them and threatening to end the lease if something like this happens again without discussion is a good way to make sure they know you're serious, but you're not blowing your top or anything. They shouldn't think that because the horse MAY become theirs, that they get to do as they wish. If they were that convinced that they were to buy her, then they would be trying to negotiate sooner ownership I would think.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

If she's in driving harness it's a good thing. The mane gets tangled and pulled out and ends up looking raggedy anyhow. I would not be upset, especially if she's for sale for $400 at the end of the lease. The tail also, she has to back if she's driving, cutting it keeps her from stepping on it and pulling it out. Most horses used for driving do not have really long manes and tails.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

That's my thought. I actually wanted to sell her to them immediately, and it was them that suggested a 6-month lease-to-own because she is younger than most horses that they use for their program (she's 5, their youngest is 9), and neither of us were sure how she would do with the super-beginner people since she is fairly sensitive and doesn't like to be groomed/loved on. I told them I'd sell to them at any point in the lease if they wanted me to, so if they want to make changes to her all they have to do is buy her from me. But they are insistent on only leasing for half a year to be sure she is a right fit (fine with me...doesn't cost me extra...) However, if they are insistent on that, I think it is only fair for me to insist that she be left 'as is' until she is officially theirs.

Dreamcatcher- valid point, and that is why I'm not really angry, just surprised that they didn't even mention it to me or ask. I always did a running braid and looped the end through the braid (took about 10 minutes, no big deal) and never had problems with it being caught up (and I drove extensively), but I suppose it isn't fair to assume they're willing to do that. The tail though, I don't think should have been a problem. The cart shouldn't be close enough to her butt for her tail to get caught, and her tail was at about ground level but I kept is short enough that it didn't actually touch the ground. I definitely didn't want it getting caught either!

Actually though, miniature horses typically do have fairly long manes when driving as compared to full sized horses  typically about shoulder length.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I've always seen minis with long manes around here, driving and doing just fine


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Ok-I'm sorry, but I would be ****ed. This is a 6 mo lease and not a guaranteed purchase at the end of that. They have had her about a MONTH. Guess I would be telling them she is now theirs, since they decided to take decisive action without asking. $$ please. Totally inappropriate, and yeah, minis I know are notoriously "hairy", but manes and tails take time to grow and that is waaayyyy to short.

My guy is free leased to a therapeutic center and I would totally understand if they pulled his mane…..he is a draft cross and REALLY hairy. But, instead, they wait for me to get there every 6 months or so, which is fine, and I think shows consideration.


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## Tracer (Sep 16, 2012)

I think your plan is the best thing to do - say that you aren't happy that they did it without consulting you, and tell them to ask next time.

A lesson horse at the school I attended had a couple of horses on long term lease, and one was on the condition that they don't cut his mane and that he goes home during the holidays. Well, the owners stopped taking him at the holidays and couldn't be contacted, nor did they contact the school, so after a year or so of that, they cut it. They figured that if the other half was going back on their side of the deal, they could take a few inches off his mane.

As for the horse I am leasing, I've pulled his mane without asking, mainly because a) the deal is that he is mine to do what I want (minus sell him obviously) until I don't want him anymore and b) he's a horrible sweater, and keeping his mane thin and shorter helps keep his neck dry.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

But, Tracer-HE IS NOT YOURS. I understand an english rider maintaining it as it has been normally kept short to braid, but to change the style is not appropriate. How do you think the lease horse you have is "yours to do that I want" but the OP's lessee who may actually purchase is not entitled and should ask?

Bottom line-if you do not OWN the horse, you should ask. Period. Short of, as I said, pulling to maintain it a given length while the horse is in your care.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Oh no! Sour's beautiful mane! *sigh* I'd be ticked...And I'd be bringing her home...

My mare's mane is now 2-1/2 feet and at her shoulder, and if my mom so much as looks at her mane, I get after her. (She's not one for cutting hair anyways) I have works hard to keep to long and grow it more. Her tail drags the ground (I had to twist and it it up for winter)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

Franknbeans you just said it is ok to pull a lease horses mane, but then got after Tracer for doing just that ?. Whenever I've leased a horse I've always been able to do what I wanted with their mane and tail, and I could clip them as I saw fit. But that was understood from the beginning.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

SullysRider said:


> Franknbeans you just said it is ok to pull a lease horses mane, but then got after Tracer for doing just that ?. Whenever I've leased a horse I've always been able to do what I wanted with their mane and tail, and I could clip them as I saw fit. But that was understood from the beginning.


Please re read to clarify. I said *I* would be fine with it in my case with *my*horse as he is a draft and particularly hairy.

In my second post I said it is fine to pull it to maintain it IF that is how the horse (presumably english) came to you.

The issue I have with Tracer is that for some reason he/she feels like his/her lease is different and he/she is entitled to do whatever with the leased horses mane. It no more belongs to him/her than the OP's leased horse. He/she is no more entitled. THAT is why I "got after" tracer. A leased horse is a leased horse. Period. It is NOT owned whether it is Tracer or the OP's horse.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

franknbeans said:


> Please re read to clarify. I said *I* would be fine with it in my case with *my*horse as he is a draft and particularly hairy.
> 
> In my second post I said it is fine to pull it to maintain it IF that is how the horse (presumably english) came to you.
> 
> The issue I have with Tracer is that for some reason he/she feels like his/her lease is different and he/she is entitled to do whatever with the leased horses mane. It no more belongs to him/her than the OP's leased horse. He/she is no more entitled. THAT is why I "got after" tracer. A leased horse is a leased horse. Period. It is NOT owned whether it is Tracer or the OP's horse.


Some leases are more lenient than others, like mine have been. I could do whatever I wanted to any of the horses' manes or tails, without asking. Heck I could do pretty much whatever I wanted. So in some lease situations the person leasing the horse IS entitled to do whatever they want to with the horses mane. As has been the case with any of my lease horses and sounds like that's how it is for Tracer's situation.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Yep.  Sour's mane is no more. She looks...odd with short mane. It doesn't flatter her (shortish) neck at all. 

I called last night and let them know I wasn't happy with the hair cut, and the lady who talked to me seemed a little miffed, but made sure I was tactful/didn't bite their heads off so...I dunno. I made it clear that her mane should not be cut again until they've signed and handed over the money to buy her, and left it at that.

I'm not ready to take her home yet because I don't feel like its a big enough deal to warrant that just yet. She does seem happy with her home, and is loving the work, so I don't want to over-react. Plus I honestly don't have a place for her at the moment... I still haven't found a new job and I'm up to my eyeballs in bills at the moment so taking on her care is something I'm not easily able to do. I will of course, if they just do NOT work out for her, but I want what is best for her. The mane was personal preference (she's rather ugly without it...poor baby xD) and not life threatening. If anything threatens her health though she is definitely OUT of there.

I've honestly never seen a mini with such short mane that hadn't been hogged though. I think if it was any shorter it would be standing up!


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## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

I would love to see a picture of this, personally.


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## Tracer (Sep 16, 2012)

franknbeans said:


> But, Tracer-HE IS NOT YOURS. I understand an english rider maintaining it as it has been normally kept short to braid, but to change the style is not appropriate. How do you think the lease horse you have is "yours to do that I want" but the OP's lessee who may actually purchase is not entitled and should ask?
> 
> Bottom line-if you do not OWN the horse, you should ask. Period. Short of, as I said, pulling to maintain it a given length while the horse is in your care.


The owner really doesn't care what I do, and they specified that. I asked if I could put shoes on him, they said do what I want. His mane is hardly an inch shorter than it was when I got him, mainly thinner. And I did it for his own benefit. 

SullysRider is right, my lease is extremely lenient. This horse IS essentially mine. The only reason he isn't is because he was given to the owner, and the owner isn't allowed to sell. So he opted to lease to me, someone who knew and loved this horse back in his schoolhorse days, who lives 4 hours away, for free, with free delivery and pick up should I decide I no longer want him. Heck, the owner hasn't contacted me in at least 6 months, nor have they replied to my attempts to contact them.

In Endiku's case, Sour could be returning to her at any point in time due to being unsuitable. In my case, the owner has no desire to have the horse returned, nor do I desire to return him. If I had hogged his mane, that's a different story. But I sincerely doubt anyone would have a problem with me taking an inch of a mane for the good of the horse.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I think there is a difference between "lease" and "lease to own"


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## Prinella (Jul 12, 2011)

I got annoyed when I was free leasing my mare in the early days and her 'owner' 16 yo daughter of the man leasing her to me cut her mane. 
I was told she's yours for as long as you want her. So in my eyes she was mine!

She also decided she'd start riding again so I pumped her with hot feed but that's besides the point!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^That really shouldn't be funny... lol


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

I would be upset because even though it's a lease to own, there is no guarantee of sale at the end of the 6 months, and if they give the horse back, the owner then will have to deal with the short mane, and cleaning it up to look nice for other prospective buyers. I don't think it's an issue worth getting totally freaked out about, but I think the op did the right thing in mentioning it nicely to the leasers, so they understand. It would have been appropriate for the leasers to mention that they wanted to cut the horse's mane for a, b, c reasons, as it looks like you the owner went to a lot of trouble to keep it nice and long, but they didn't. I was always miffed at my dad when he would take some of the kids of fellow employees at his work out to the barn, and cut his horse's mane and tail horribly bad after I had taken so long to get it to grow out. I know the horse is his, but I was using the horse for english lessons and showing while my horse was laid up, and let me tell you, it's not easy braiding a mane that he won't let me cut short enough to braid, but won't leave long enough to do a running braid, and lets not even get into his troll forelock lol. I understand that the horse is his to do with as he sees fit, but I was using the horse, and I felt like he should have mentioned it, or made sure I didn't have a show coming up. So the point of that, is just that the horse is still the op's, not the leasers, and until the horse is bought and paid for, the leaser should ask before doing something that drastic.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

amp, I'll take a picture of it next time that I'm out, which probably won't be for a few weeks or more considering that they ARE leasing her and I don't want to be 'hovering' over them. They're paying her bills after all. Hopefully it grows back quickly...it seemed to grow pretty fast up to a certain point. She had shoulder-length mane as a two year old but getting those last few inches to where the longest part was touching her knees took until she was a late four year old!


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Endiku said:


> amp, I'll take a picture of it next time that I'm out, which probably won't be for a few weeks or more considering that they ARE leasing her and I don't want to be 'hovering' over them. They're paying her bills after all. Hopefully it grows back quickly...it seemed to grow pretty fast up to a certain point. She had shoulder-length mane as a two year old but getting those last few inches to where the longest part was touching her knees took until she was a late four year old!


mane length as a 3 1/2 year old.







length when in a running braid (a rather sloppy one...I was in lineup for a parade when I did it and she was being a little jumpy...heh) It really isn't in the way of the harnessing at all.That little tuft at the end can even be tucked into the band so that its even further up her neck.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

To be honest I think it's completely acceptable. A full lease is like ownership - the lessee has all responsibilities and privileges of ownership unless something is specifically mentioned in the lease contract. I don't really view the mane as an important thing, maybe in show horses or something, but then that would be mentioned in the contract. The leaser is paying all the costs and doing all the work, and for that they don't need to call the owner over everything. 

It's cool if you've decided that this is important to you - and then tell them and make sure they know what bothers you.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Whats done is done, but I don't plan on making any more of a stink about it. I let my thoughts be known to them calmly and tactfully, and they're back in the 'good' book with me again now that they've agreed not to cut it again until they buy her. Thanks all!

Its been interesting to see how different everyone's opinions are though, for sure! I guess its one of those 'decide for yourself' things.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

If I had been leasing her, I would not have wanted that mane to care for, and would have probably cut it. Had a stipulation been in the lease that I could not keep the mane the length i found easy to work with, or that I could not clip etc, I would not lease.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

I don't think I'd be upset if it had been cut just to a manageable length (just above where the breastcollar sits, or maybe even the end of her neck) but 3" is a little ridiculous. I know if no miniature horse, especially a driving one, who's mane is that short. Especially since their mane is double layered and VERY thick, so it just sort of...poofs off of her neck and makes her look less refined/like she has a really short neck xD


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I've already said my peace on the subject at hand, but had to say how cute she is in pink xD


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

She is absolutely adorable!! Love the ear net, and wraps! Someday I'll have a mini.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Haha, thank you! That was her very first parade (we were in lineup). It was so much fun dressing her up and showing her off, and she was a star. They loved her! I actually made the polos myself and attached little jingly bells to them, and the ear net is pony sized/way too big (I thought it would be SHETLAND pony sized...not 14hh pony sized) so I altered them and put little pompoms on top. It was adorable.

(excuse that blimp belly though. She'd just come off of nursing a foal...long story, and ended up looking a little hay-belly-ish)


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