# Anybody Else not get the quarter horse frame?



## CecilliaB (Jan 21, 2010)

I have wondered this to. Maybe because a hunter should appear calm and easy to ride??

I am doing some pleasure classes with my gelding and I am nervous. He is a very calm horse and very easy and responsive but his head just doesn't sit as low as some of the others I see!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I dunno. Sometimes I think people take a "desirable trait" and exaggerate it until it is no longer desirable. 

So many show horse characteristics are taken to the extreme. 

I personally dislike the really slow WP type Quarter Horses (maybe the Hunters are similar, I am not as familiar with them). They move so slow that if my horse cantered or trotted like that out on the trail I would make him to go faster! 

Really though, it's not the speed, but the impulsion. The WP horses look like they lack impulsion to me.

And then look at the poor Tennessee Walking Horses. They are naturally gaited and have wonderful gaits, but no, the show horse people aren't happy with the natural gaits and have to exaggerate them until they are grotesque caricatures of what the horse used to be. 

So I just trail ride. I don't have to conform to anyone else's ideals. As long as me and my horse are relatively safe and well trained, we don't have to worry about what others think of us. We just go make ourselves happy!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

AQHA "hunters" are much, much different than other "hunters." Just a different ball game.


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## Ariat164 (Nov 27, 2009)

it just looks horrid to me im more of an arab fan lol


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Well, I know that getting your horse to stretch down, long and low is good. Many top level riders incorporate it into their daily riding, from GP Jumpers, Upper Level Dressage and Eventing - because the action gets them to work their topline and stretches their muscles.

BUT in order for this to work, the horse has to be on their back end, spine rounded *lifted* and tracking up. The horse has to be moving upwards in their shoulders, not downwards.

When I watch this new trend in the QH world, or as it is better known as the "Peanut Rolling" I watch for the proper movements for this head low thing to be effective....and I see none.

Instead I see the horse moving downwards through their shoulders, I don't see tracking up at all, I see butts high and the horses, to be honest, look miserable.

Do I understand it? Not at all. No matter how hard I look, I cannot see 1 horse moving correctly to make this "position" benefitial for the horse.

This fad, trend - has saddened me. It has also saddened friends of mine who were HUGE APHA circuit competators....and have abandoned their sport due to this.


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## Ariat164 (Nov 27, 2009)

mieventer said:


> well, i know that getting your horse to stretch down, long and low is good. Many top level riders incorporate it into their daily riding, from gp jumpers, upper level dressage and eventing - because the action gets them to work their topline and stretches their muscles.
> 
> But in order for this to work, the horse has to be on their back end, spine rounded *lifted* and tracking up. The horse has to be moving upwards in their shoulders, not downwards.
> 
> ...


 thank you!!!!!!


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## charlicata (Jan 12, 2010)

I agree with trailhorserider. I used to work with show Saddlebreds. That was my way to work and be around horses until I actually got my own. I've done the stretchers & chains. We never "sored" the horses though. And as far as padding, the barn owner might have a wedge added to the shoes...but nothing like what I saw on that Walking Horse video. Since I left that barn, I have done nothing but trail ride. I have no interest to show. But a horse carrying it's head that low looks unnatural. It's nice to see a horse relaxed...but there's a difference between looking relaxed and looking for a place to lay down.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

To sum it up - this "Movement" is done to win, because it is what the Judges look for - so therefore, if that is what places, that is what is done.

Which makes it - no longer about the horse - but the trophy, the name, the prestige.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Ariat164 said:


> it just looks horrid to me im more of an arab fan lol


You would be amazed at just how closely arabs and quarter horses are judged. Many quarter horse people use arab shows as schooling shows because the judging is so similar. Arabs have a slightly different conformation and carry their heads a bit higher but it's pretty close to the same way of riding.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Arabs are missing a vertibrea aren't they?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

MIEventer said:


> To sum it up - this "Movement" is done to win, because it is what the Judges look for - so therefore, if that is what places, that is what is done.
> 
> Which makes it - no longer about the horse - but the trophy, the name, the prestige.


 
It is amazing how quickly a fad takes control of any sport. I know that the peanut rollers are on the outbound train. I've noticed that the horses that have a more forward movement are starting to place now. In fact, judges will say "lope with a forward movement" now. That's not to say a peanut roller won't win a class, but they are headed out.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I think that is great! I remember when that weird canter was huge and that's dissapearing in the QH world.

Fads are prevelant in the Hunter world as well, I just wish the perching and laying on the horses neck fad will dissapear.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

People who are uneducated in western pleasure are unaware of the beauty of what the horse is doing. If you take a few classes you will get a better understanding for it, you might not like it, but you will better understand the class. The thing I don't agree with is in peanut rolling when the horse seems as if they stop for a second and then keep going. But then again it does show how disciplined the horse is. 

Just for a horse to travel at that slow of speed is amazing. For a horse to do that, it has to have alot of training and skill. Not to mention a high-strung horse wouldn't be best. And Justdressageit, is right. Youtube a few shows.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

it's basically a form of dressage.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

^ Yes, it really is.


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## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

I didnt read the whole thread, so please excuse this if it was all ready said.

Peanut rolling is no longer correct and is punished in AQHA classes, same with troping and having your horse tilted. Horses are suppose to have their poll level with their withers. As for the being slow. there are some good moving QHs out there, however a lot of WP horses are also being shown HUS to get those all around points, but they have never really been taught how to move up.

I have some various feelings about 4H and the open shows that offer WP and HUS saddle classes. To me (and please don't take this as offensive) a lot of those horses are the ones that could not make it on the breed circuit for various reasons, and aren't always the best examples of what a good WP or HUS horse should look like.


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## Gidji (Dec 19, 2008)

In Australia, peanut rollers rarely win now. Most judges prefer a natural head carriage, and like forward movement. In response to the OP's question about why their head carriage is like that, it just is! Its what your horse must do to win. I'm sure I have a copy of the AQHA judging criteria somewhere, but I'm too lasy to look it up cause I really should be doing my homework


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I do not see how there can be termed any "discipline" or "amazing movement" with WP horses. They lack impulsion, move downhill and are strung out... none of that screams amazing training or discipline to me, it screams stupid fad that makes horses look browbeaten and miserable... Sure it takes tons of training to achieve such an unnaturally slow and sluggish movement, you have to force a horse to move like that, it is not something to be trained for the benefit of the animal so I do not see how it pertains to dressage...modern dressage maybe with their rolkur, but classical dressage no, not at all.

Hence the reason I do not show.


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

I am not going to get involved in this thread, becuase the 'tone' is already set. 

Please note however, the western pleasure and hunter under saddle horses that are WINNING at AQHA shows are BRED to have a lower head set... 

Yes, it was taken to far, and yes AQHA is trying to improve the movement on top of it all.

It is not like they are taking an arabian or morgan horse and forcing his high head set low... that just doesnt work.

If you don't like it than don't do it. Simple as that.


- an avid fan of AQHA, APHA, and ApHC horses and the events they compete in.


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Honeysuga said:


> I do not see how there can be termed any "discipline" or "amazing movement" with WP horses. They lack impulsion, move downhill and are strung out... none of that screams amazing training or discipline to me, it screams stupid fad that makes horses look browbeaten and miserable... Sure it takes tons of training to achieve such an unnaturally slow and sluggish movement, you have to force a horse to move like that, it is not something to be trained for the benefit of the animal so I do not see how it pertains to dressage...modern dressage maybe with their rolkur, but classical dressage no, not at all.
> 
> Hence the reason I do not show.


I have seen some crappy dressage horses (doing well at approved dressage tests) of days past and present too.

You can find bad examples in every discipline.


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

I am personally not a fan of the Quarter Horse breed shows, but I have actually seen some horses that are actually really moving, and are tracking under themselves. I do agree that for a while there, they were way into the peanut roller type of look. The one thing that does really bug me about Quarter Horses in general though, is that a lot of the horses are bred extremely downhill. I know that they are not looking to have the horse way up under himself, and very animated in the front like a Dressage horse or a Jumper, but they still just seem to be too downhill for what they are bred for. I know that the foundation bred horses in particular are generally used in cow horse events, or on ranches, so I know that they need to be able to get down in the dirt, and move quickly to cut off cows, so maybe thats why.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Honeysuga said:


> I do not see how there can be termed any "discipline" or "amazing movement" with WP horses. They lack impulsion, move downhill and are strung out... none of that screams amazing training or discipline to me, it screams stupid fad that makes horses look browbeaten and miserable... Sure it takes tons of training to achieve such an unnaturally slow and sluggish movement, you have to force a horse to move like that, it is not something to be trained for the benefit of the animal so I do not see how it pertains to dressage...modern dressage maybe with their rolkur, but classical dressage no, not at all.
> 
> Hence the reason I do not show.


I have to disagree witht his comment. I think western takes great discipline and I think it is pretty amazing to watch a horse being ridden purely by the riders seat. I don't believe they lack impulsion as they are moving from the hind end. I also would definitly not call a true western pleasure horse "strung out"... But... to each her own...


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Honeysuga, it's probably a good thing you don't show. Dressage means training. Any horse that can ride is doing dressage.. Just like showing in dressage, WP horses are trained to be calm and supple. So I don't see how you don't think they are related. Just like in WP there are also other "fads" that people don't agree with. I know many WP horses that are just the opposite of "browbeaten" and "miserable". Maybe you should read up on your disciplines and go behind the scenes of a WP horse and trainer..


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

That is a rude statement Equestriun, I indeed know the difference between a true WP horse and one ridden in the "fad" style of the moment, _the latter is what I was talking about in the first place, what the OP started the thread about...._

I also know the definition of dressage:the execution by a trained horse of precision movements in response to barely perceptible signals from its rider.

What I was talking about was the fad horses, the peanut rollers. I should have been more clear in that I guess, but that is no reason to insult me. My apologies for the misunderstanding.

I do love to watch a properly ridden and trained WP horse, that truly is dressage, and it is lovely to see, but until lately that has been the exception rather than the rule and I am glad to see that fad passing.

Lastly I would like to add that even though I do not choose to show WP, I have "read up" and gone to many a show where WP is the prominent event or class, I am glad you are so passionate about WP, but my opinion was definitely not ill informed...


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## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

Honeysuga said:


> I do not see how there can be termed any "discipline" or "amazing movement" with WP horses. They lack impulsion, move downhill and are strung out... none of that screams amazing training or discipline to me, it screams stupid fad that makes horses look browbeaten and miserable... Sure it takes tons of training to achieve such an unnaturally slow and sluggish movement, you have to force a horse to move like that, it is not something to be trained for the benefit of the animal so I do not see how it pertains to dressage...modern dressage maybe with their rolkur, but classical dressage no, not at all.
> 
> Hence the reason I do not show.



A lot of the WP horses aren't forced to move that way at all, a lot of them are bred that way. The QH mare that I will be riding this year is a really nice girl, she naturally moves with a level headset and is slow and flat kneed, she jogs and lopes out in the pasture, you can't tell me anybody is forcing her to do that.


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## Lawrite_Haflinger (Aug 3, 2008)

Actually all the Western Pleasure and HUS is being improved so much. The peanut rollers have been gone for years and the movement is forward. I think it is gonna take sometime for people to forget Western Pleasure's bad days but at this point I think QH Western is better than Arab. At least the QHs are bred to go that slow and carry themselves like that, Arab Western is almost miserable to watch.






HUS is getting better too, the "super posting" fad seems to be ending and riders are finally having contact with their horses' mouths. Quarter Horse showing is just getting better.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

You are right LH, those do look much better than I have seen in the past... As I said I am glad the trend is going toward a more natural headset and hind driven way of moving, makes me very happy.


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## Ariat164 (Nov 27, 2009)

farmpony84 said:


> You would be amazed at just how closely arabs and quarter horses are judged. Many quarter horse people use arab shows as schooling shows because the judging is so similar. Arabs have a slightly different conformation and carry their heads a bit higher but it's pretty close to the same way of riding.


 
ummmm honestly they are not ridden and judged the same, my prime example is in 4-h where they have all quarter horse judges i very rarely get placed above qh's, but in intercounty i do place when i am against them, under judges that do all breeds, and by the way arabs' conformation is wayyy different than qh's prime example quarters have bigger butts, arabs have one less rib and they have one less tail vertebrae, therefore they carry thier tails higher, plus they have a dished face (obviously), so i'd say they have more than slightly different conformation. plus arabs are not trained to carry thier weight on thier forehand and thier gaits are much more forward. they also have a completley different headsett, and they tuck thier nose in a lot more than a qh does. need i go on?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Ariat164 said:


> ummmm honestly they are not ridden and judged the same, my prime example is in 4-h where they have all quarter horse judges i very rarely get placed above qh's, but in intercounty i do place when i am against them, under judges that do all breeds, and by the way arabs' conformation is wayyy different than qh's prime example quarters have bigger butts, arabs have one less rib and they have one less tail vertebrae, therefore they carry thier tails higher, plus they have a dished face (obviously), so i'd say they have more than slightly different conformation. plus arabs are not trained to carry thier weight on thier forehand and thier gaits are much more forward. they also have a completley different headsett, and they tuck thier nose in a lot more than a qh does. need i go on?


I'm talking about ARAB BREED shows. They don't have the same conformations as QHs, no, but they are judged very similarly. I ride at an ARAB association show for my schooling shows becuase they judging is very fair. I'm not talking local shows, I'm not talking 4-h. I'm talking breed shows. Arab trainers actually train QH's very well and vice versa. In fact many times I've seen QH judges judging at the arab shows. A good judge will judge a horse FAIRLY according to the breed. The judging at the arabs shows in my opinion has been much less political then at the local hunt shows.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>> When I watch this new trend in the QH world, or as it is better known as the "Peanut Rolling" I watch for the proper movements for this head low thing to be effective....and I see none._
_>>>> This fad, trend - has saddened me. It has also saddened friends of mine who were HUGE APHA circuit competators....and have abandoned their sport due to this. _

New trend???
"Peanut Rollers" are NOT a recent development. I have been attending/occasionally showing in QH/Paint/Appaloosa shows since the late 1980s and I casn be an eyewitness to the fact that "Peanut Rollers" were alive and well 20+ years ago. More recently, it has been improving, rather than getting worse. Heads and shoulders are coming up, rear ends are getting more engaged, backs are rounding, horses are not troping.

if someone got OUT of APHA due to peanut rolling... I wonder when they got IN? Because Seriously, if they had been showing in the early 1990s, they should know that the "new" trend is for better more natural, more level movers and less extremes---LESS LOOOOW headsets, draped reins, "go nowhere" gaits, and etc.


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

FlyinSoLow said:


> I am not going to get involved in this thread, becuase the 'tone' is already set.
> 
> Please note however, the western pleasure and hunter under saddle horses that are WINNING at AQHA shows are BRED to have a lower head set...
> 
> ...



*Amen.* It could not have been said any better.


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## Clementine (Sep 24, 2009)

Lawrite_Haflinger said:


> Actually all the Western Pleasure and HUS is being improved so much. The peanut rollers have been gone for years and the movement is forward. I think it is gonna take sometime for people to forget Western Pleasure's bad days but at this point I think QH Western is better than Arab. At least the QHs are bred to go that slow and carry themselves like that, Arab Western is almost miserable to watch.
> 
> YouTube - 2009 AQHYA World Show - Ryan Small - Western Pleasure Finals
> 
> ...


This is supposed to be the "improved version"???? That's awful! That's not "forward moving"! My horse's natural walk is probably faster than those horses' lopes! I have to just be honest and say that I hate, loathe, despise, and detest Western Pleasure and Hunter Under Saddle classes. I also have similar feelings for gaited horse showing. I don't care if they're "bred that way" - that's almost more horrible, to think that a large portion of the most popular breed of horse (AQH), has been mutilated to the point that they "jog and lope in their pastures". 






I find the western horse in this video much more pleasant to watch. Why? Because it actually looks like it's alive.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

I like that western horse. However, the dressage horse is in absolute elevation switching to broken neckline and simply isn't moving the correct way. The western horse is far from perfection as well, but his movement is more so relaxed. As a dressage rider, I would actually consider the western horse in that video to be closer to true collection. I don't see why collection has to be defined by discipline, I think of it as being anatomically correct to the horse's body in order to hold a rider's weight comfortably.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Keep in mind that everything I am about to say is purely my own opinion.

I thoroughly dislike the entire discipline. I have ridden some WP horses and I did not find them pleasurable to ride at all. I don't want to ride a horse that can't see where he is going if the grass is more than 2 feet tall. Even when I ride simply for the pleasure of it, I generally have a destination in mind and I don't want to spend 3 days getting there. I understand that working long and low is benefitial to a horse but I guess my definition of long and low is completely different than some people. A horse should be level, controlled, cadenced, balanced, and comfortable first and fashionable second but too many people forget that. I for one, see nothing even close to natural about a horse with their head dropped down creeping around an arena. My Dad used to show and did train WP horses. He got out of that discipline mainly due to the peanut roller fad because he refused to train horses that moved like that. They are making strides toward improvement but as far as I am concerned, they have taken about 8 strides into a 15 mile trip.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Scary if the lope in that video is an improvement. What exactly is pleasurable about that lope? Neither the horse or the rider look like it is enjoyable. And how would you ever get anywhere if that is how a horse moved 'in real life'? Oh my!


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

I like my Western Pleasure, Hunter Under Saddle, and Reining horses... and I don't think I'm a bad person? :-|

btw, reining horses were starting to go _too_ low also (nothing like sliding stops with your nose on the ground), luckily it seems that fad is getting nipped in the bud a lot faster.

Now halter horses, thats a problem... :lol:
_(point is everyone likes what they like... I don't like gaited horses, dressage, eventing, or saddle seat... its not that I don't like the horses, I lOVE THEM, i just don't like riding like that! I mean jumping a 4-5 foot bush into a pond of water doesnt seem very fun for the horse [<- eventing])_


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## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

Clementine said:


> This is supposed to be the "improved version"???? That's awful! That's not "forward moving"! My horse's natural walk is probably faster than those horses' lopes! I have to just be honest and say that I hate, loathe, despise, and detest Western Pleasure and Hunter Under Saddle classes. I also have similar feelings for gaited horse showing. I don't care if they're "bred that way" - that's almost more horrible, to think that a large portion of the most popular breed of horse (AQH), has been mutilated to the point that they "jog and lope in their pastures".
> 
> YouTube - Fest der Pferde 2008: Klassik trifft western Smart Rattle Snake und Lausbub
> 
> I find the western horse in this video much more pleasant to watch. Why? Because it actually looks like it's alive.


I would hardly call it mutilating! Gaited horses gait from birth, sure there are some nasty things that go on with the big lick horses, but the vast majority of gaited horses are pleasure horses and trail horses and are not being forced to gait in anyway, that is their breed.

The great thing about the QH is that there are so many variations in the breed, there are those that are bred to be fast around a barrel, those that are bred to be good cow horses, those that are bred to look good in halter, and those that are bred to be WP or HUS horses. You could call any of those types a mutilation. 

I see nothing wrong with my horse jogging and loping in the pasture, she has been doing that since before she was broke, so you can't say that anybody was forcing her to do so.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

smrobs said:


> they have taken about 8 strides into a 15 mile trip.


Agreed.


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

I don't get it. Everyone is complaining about western pleasure, when I'd be willing to bet there have been minimal casualties in our arena, compared to eventing, jumping, racing, etc.

No, they shouldn't be riding two year olds - but OTHER DISCIPLINES DO IT TOO! All of those amazing race horses that everyone seems to drool over, guess what? So why the hate on western pleasure in general?

And the fact that you're grouping all quarter horses into the same league for 'frame' is ignorance. Stock breeds are bred to carry their necks low for the most part, though there are exceptions in the breed. They are NOT bred upright like a warmblood. These horses are bred to do a job, a job that they excel at - which is why you don't see upright QH's competing successfully in the events.

And to those who say 'those horses don't look happy', have you even watched Dressage? I mean really. I've never seen more tail swishing in my life. You hardly ever see an act of rebellion in great western pleasure horses because they enjoy their jobs. The ones who don't like their jobs? They get ****y in and out of the ring, and that's just not a pretty picture. Those horses are usually soon sold off to do another job if it doesn't suit the rider... Or rarely, around here - the rider figures out what the horse enjoys and goes with that.

My paint personally preferred HUS, where he could move out. Now that he's mellow? He much more prefers the slow, easy going gaits of WP. How do I know? Because it was harder than heck to push him back up into extended gaits, and he simply did not want to work that hard.


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

Just for the record, there is no such thing as one "quarter horse frame".

Seriously. Don't be so ignorant about the breed. I have a Quarter Horse that can run solid 15 seconds around barrels, and one that is highly suitable for a more elegant discipline like Dressage. They are so varied in many ways, and to judge the whole breed in one and say that the whole breed's headset/walk/lope/etc is ugly is VERY offensive to me. 

Typically those that hate on WP/HUS horses these days have no clue what they are talking about. Some do, don't get me wrong. There is no difference if I have a QH with a low head set or if you have a Dressage horse whose neck is turned in so far it looks like it could snap in half. Seriously. If you want to go to the point to say that we are abusive, check out the other disciplines. You can't sit there and tell me that a horse jumping a five foot jump with 150+ pounds on its back is "natural." 

You can find the ugly in any discipline. Why do we constantly do this knowing that not everyone is abusing their powers over the horse? I don't know. Sure. Peanut rollers were big back in the day(before I was born actually...'94 child here. lol) but we are improving the discipline. To say something like "That's improving?! I'd hate to see what it looked like before" isn't going to solve anything. At least we are attempting to improve it! Don't bash us for trying to solve an issue that has been around for a while. If you are going to come here and bash our efforts to help something that some of you are complaining about, then by all means, don't take the effort to post.

I am SOOOO tired of people bashing this breed. It is a beautiful breed and unless you compete in the discipline and have experienced the true circuit and behind the scenes yourself, you have no right to say whether it is "abuse" or not, because you have no idea. 


/ rant


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> New trend???
> "Peanut Rollers" are NOT a recent development. I have been attending/occasionally showing in QH/Paint/Appaloosa shows since the late 1980s and I casn be an eyewitness to the fact that "Peanut Rollers" were alive and well 20+ years ago. More recently, it has been improving, rather than getting worse. Heads and shoulders are coming up, rear ends are getting more engaged, backs are rounding, horses are not troping.
> 
> if someone got OUT of APHA due to peanut rolling... I wonder when they got IN? Because Seriously, if they had been showing in the early 1990s, they should know that the "new" trend is for better more natural, more level movers and less extremes---LESS LOOOOW headsets, draped reins, "go nowhere" gaits, and etc.


You are right Eastowest - I was incorrect. I called one of my friends and it wasn't the Peanut Rolling as I thought it was, while yes dislikes the slow movement - it was that "odd beat" canter that was the issue.

So it was my mistake, I thought it was Peanut Rolling - but it was the odd beat canter that was the reason why she in particular, left the circuit.

I don't know about my other friends since I haven't spoken with them lately about this topic.

~~~~

No one is bashing the breed, as far as I am aware - it isn't the breed that in discussion, it is the slow movement that is in discussion with the peanut rolling head so low movement that is being asked of these horses to win in the show ring because it is "popular" or what the Judge looks for.

QH's are beautiful, yes they are - they were bred to work with cows - not to move so slowly.

I stand by my origional post about the movement.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> No, they shouldn't be riding two year olds - but OTHER DISCIPLINES DO IT TOO! All of those amazing race horses that everyone seems to drool over, guess what? So why the hate on western pleasure in general?





> There is no difference if I have a QH with a low head set or if you have a Dressage horse whose neck is turned in so far it looks like it could snap in half. Seriously. If you want to go to the point to say that we are abusive, check out the other disciplines. You can't sit there and tell me that a horse jumping a five foot jump with 150+ pounds on its back is "natural."


These comments always make me want to either laugh or tear my hair out. They pop up inevitably in any thread about less than humane treatment within disciplines.

They remind me of a toddler pointing to a friend and saying - "He swore so I can swear too!" "They are treating horses bad so it doesn't matter if we do it!"

So what - Because there is abuse everywhere, we shouldn't talk about it at all? have you looked around this forum? There are numerous threads about numerous dubious practices - Big Lick Walkers, Rollkur, etc. 

The ONLY way change is effected is through public outcry and public discussion. Talking about these issues is about the only effective way to let people know that we don't approve of ANY actions that go against the best interests of the horse.


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## Tasia (Aug 17, 2009)

This is going to be a long thread. But I will put my say in my horse naturally carries himself low. I do not force him in anyway. And to see a real pretty WP horse you have to look around not just direct it a one area.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Great lets all just point the finger at everyone else and not own up to the bad rap earned as a whole and move on...

Seriously. No one is bashing QH's, just the ridiculous headsets and frames in WP AND HUS. Grow up a little bit.

*Very well said Wild-Spot.*


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Honeysuga said:


> Great lets all just point the finger at everyone else and not own up to the bad rap earned as a whole and move on...


Well said, lets move on.

A bad rap is really what this is all about, things _are_ changing for the better but it takes time. People need to open their eyes and see that there are people trying to improve the WP and HUS show pens, but it isn’t going to be a over night 'shocker'. Nothing happens like that.

However there have been a lot of misconceptions posted about these events and the horses that compete in them. Some people are still posting things from the past; things that have been in the process of changing for YEARS and now are not necessarily true. All I can say is that is pure ignorance, and I hope these people take a closer look at today’s WP and HUS horses and see that the classes are improving.

But yet again, if you don't like it show in somthing else; somthing that you do enjoy to compete in and watch. Everyone likes somthing different.

Sadly the area I see that needs the most improvement is at the local shows that are still trying to be ‘like the big dogs’ (both riders and judges... I don't care to much for the local judges around my area) yet they cut corners in training because they don’t essentially understand what it takes to train a horse of any discipline, they lack the funds for a good trainers, or they just don’t have the time to properly train a horse… and on the local level (like the 4-h shows around here) a lot of these horses will win, which is just pathetic.


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## NevadaRides (Jan 15, 2010)

I rode and showed WP, Trail classes, Hunter/Open Jumping and English on the Flat for years from around 1970 through about 1984. 

Here is a *classic* frame for a WP horse in that era. Completely natural, relaxed but alert and ready to go: 









*Man of Style

* *1st Place 1981 Denver National Western Stock Show.
Circuit Champion and high point Senior Performance horse.
15 Western Pleasure Wins of 39 Shows acquiring 124 Points* 


And here is a National Champion WP horse from 1975:










Hesa Blue Gold Too

1975 AQHA High Point Western Pleasure Stallion. 196 Western Pleasure Points.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The new 'peanut rolling' wp style is to me as ridiculous and fake as the TWH high steppers. I know that to get a horse in that unnatural 'frame' there has to be some training abuse involved with many of the horses. They are even putting fake tails on WP horses and blocking the nerve so they don't show any life by swishing their tail. 
It absolutely disgusts me.

Up until the early 90's the only time I saw horses with heads that low they were aced or sleeping.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

That lope is a four beated canter. My tb used to do that when he was being lazy. When he didnt engage his hind end. I am not saying all those horses are lazy as well, but thats my only expereince to share. 

That slow trot is almost like a trot at the stand still in dressage. Do you have any idea how hard that is to do??

Some horses set their heads like that naturally, others, well they may _need_ training forks and tie downs. I honestly dont think its that abusive, unless you really force the horse into being a WP type.

Its not fair to say this is very common, it may be common near you, but not as common in the next county. No one show you've seen is a good representation of the whole country. Even at AQHA worlds and congress you dont get a good representation.You see alot of people who can afford to be there. But what about everyone else, who cant treck across the country, and take a week off work. 

At the HUS schooling shows in my area you see alot of green horses who dont have a good head set quite yet. I used to place with my tb who I could never truely get round or even close to long and low. I have a friend who does WP at a local circut. Ive seen pictures, she places and her's head horse is no wear near even being as low as her withers.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

sillybunny11486 said:


> Its not fair to say this is very common, it may be common near you, but not as common in the next county. No one show you've seen is a good representation of the whole country. Even at AQHA worlds and congress you don't get a good representation.You see alot of people who can afford to be there. But what about everyone else, who cant treck across the country, and take a week off work.


I think it is completely fair. Sure it may not be if you are looking at the local level and see only most of them doing it, but when you see it consistently at the national and world levels, yes, that is a fair assumption.

If they have been working on it for years now like has been said, why aren't things more improved? Sounds a lot like the "soring improvements" with the TWHBEA... You know the nearly non existent ones... Sounds like a bunch of excuses to get everyone off their backs more than anything... Just my opinion, and you can say I don't know what I am talking about if you like... but I see what I see and read what I read.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

> I think it is completely fair. Sure it may not be if you are looking at the local level and see only most of them doing it, but when you see it consistently at the national and world levels, yes, that is a fair assumption.


Worlds are not representative of the whole country. They just represent a specific niche. Its sort of like saying all dressage horses are ridden in Rollkuer, because thats what you see on tv.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I dislike Western Pleasure. I dislike the fact that at QH shows, the same animal can win about fourteen different classes without ever changing the way it moves. I dislike it when natural gaits have to be modified so severely (WP naturally move slow, but you'll never see one moving in the pasture like you do in the showring).

That being said - shame on a lot of you. Who in the hell are they hurting? Of all the disciplines out there, WP has got to be the most easy going and likely safest on young equine joints. The slow moving gaits provide so little concussion, it's about the only discipline I don't want to puke over when I see 2 year olds doing it (just a little grossed out, lol).

I will never understand how people can bash a discipline so thoroughly just because THEY don't like it. I don't like it either, but I'm pretty sure WP people will never understand why I love jumping so much, especially when it has such a high rate of injury!

Every discipline has it's evils and it's secrets - as far as I'm concerned, the Western Pleasure people have the LEAST bad things to worry about in their discipline.


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I dislike Western Pleasure. I dislike the fact that at QH shows, the same animal can win about fourteen different classes without ever changing the way it moves. I dislike it when natural gaits have to be modified so severely (WP naturally move slow, but you'll never see one moving in the pasture like you do in the showring).
> 
> That being said - shame on a lot of you. Who in the hell are they hurting? Of all the disciplines out there, WP has got to be the most easy going and likely safest on young equine joints. The slow moving gaits provide so little concussion, it's about the only discipline I don't want to puke over when I see 2 year olds doing it (just a little grossed out, lol).
> 
> ...


I agree!

Is there a need for improvment? Yes.

And no, its nothing like soring. I'm not even going to get into that accusation.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

sillybunny11486 said:


> Worlds are not representative of the whole country. They just represent a specific niche. Its sort of like saying all dressage horses are ridden in Rollkuer, because thats what you see on tv.



Am I wrong in assuming they are supposed to be the best of the best? Isn't that what the whole showing thing is about making it as high as you can get i.e. world champion? And no, that is nothing like saying all dressage horses are ridden in Rolkur, I see mostly well ridden and well trained dressage horses when I go to shows and watch them on tv, very litle of them are ridden with rolkur as opposed to the very little WP horses ridden level, round, and collected and moving in more natural gaits.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Who decided that round, level and collected was the "proper" way to ride? Have you ever watched a Grand Prix horse? They gallop the entire course with their ears tickling their riders nose.

It irks me that just because someone set a specific standard for one discipline, that has become the way all horses should be ridden. You're going to see a lot more trail horses looking like WP horses (not so slow of course) because making a horse collect on the trail can be silly and dangerous. Putting a horse in a frame serves no purpose other then making him look pretty and apparantly developing muscle to do certain stunts. 

If it was natural, they'd do it themselves in the pasture and we wouldn't have to build a topline. So Dressage is just as unnatural as WP is, if not more so.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Who decided that round, level and collected was the "proper" way to ride? Have you ever watched a Grand Prix horse? They gallop the entire course with their ears tickling their riders nose.
> 
> It irks me that just because someone set a specific standard for one discipline, that has become the way all horses should be ridden. You're going to see a lot more trail horses looking like WP horses (not so slow of course) because making a horse collect on the trail can be silly and dangerous. Putting a horse in a frame serves no purpose other then making him look pretty and apparantly developing muscle to do certain stunts.
> 
> If it was natural, they'd do it themselves in the pasture and we wouldn't have to build a topline. So Dressage is just as unnatural as WP is, if not more so.


a round hrose is NOT about looking pretty. sure, it looks eye appealing, but it does contribute to the horse in a positive way. i dont have time to look it up right now, but i will try and find something on it if no one else does. ever noticed horse there are 20 year old dressage horses still competeing at the same level they were when they were 6? if ridden round properly, it helps keep the horse sound and healthy longer


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

So...then how do Grand Prix jumpers stay sound into their late teen's when they gallop the entire course with their nose in the air?


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

ridergirl23 said:


> a round hrose is NOT about looking pretty. sure, it looks eye appealing, but it does contribute to the horse in a positive way. i dont have time to look it up right now, but i will try and find something on it if no one else does. ever noticed horse there are 20 year old dressage horses still competeing at the same level they were when they were 6? if ridden round properly, it helps keep the horse sound and healthy longer


There are Western Pleasure and Hunter Under Saddle horses that compete that old also.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> So...then how do Grand Prix jumpers stay sound into their late teen's when they gallop the entire course with their nose in the air?


 
Because their riders/trainers spend 5 - 6 days a week dong only dressage and nothing more. They jump once a week if even - many save their horses for the competition itself.

A horse only has so much jump, and many top level riders know this and try to teach those around them the same ethics - it is the lower levels who do not understand the important of correct riding through dressage, and the proper education to preserve your horse.

Dressage is the oldest of equestrian sports out there, and it is greatly evolved and educated through physics and educated theories on how to ride your horse correctly:

Classical Dressage Notebook - Putting Theory Into Practice


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Roundness is not just for aesthetics, it is beneficial to the horse too... it keeps them from hollowing out and stiffening up and jutting its nose out into the air. 

Being round does not mean necessarily the dressage version or being collected, it means the horse is supporting itself. It is getting its spine up and its hind end under it so it can propel itself along instead of pulling with its shoulders.

And the jumpers also stay sound at that level because they receive the best vet care, supplements, and food money can buy. They are properly prepared for all that by the seat of your pants running and jumping, they have a dressage foundation 90%of the time. They have the muscles to support themselves even when not round, it is kind of hard to gallop rounded, but by being trained in dressage their muscles are built properly from all the round work...


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I have no problem with the WP headset. It's not really appealing to me but when you look at thier hind legs at the lope you can see that they never pass each other and one leg seems to be dragging all the time. That is not a lope. Part of the lope includes a time when the horse has all four feet in the air. If my horse moved like a WP horse I would call the vet in a hurry. 

Many times people will use the excuse that it's getting better and at the higher levels the horses are moving better but I just watched a you tube video posted on this thread that should a world champion that was dragging a leg just like the lame nags at the county fair. I could watch dressage and reining all day but I can't stomach WP at any level for long.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

thank you MIEeventer and honeysuga, haha you guys got the point across that i had a terrible attempt at getting across xD


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

Ok, so I've avoided this post, mostly because it's about WP, and I'm just really not a fan. I could never compete or judge a WP class, I'd be asleep before they made it around the ring once. (it's no uglier then halter)

That said, I agree w/ MacabreMikolaj. They aren't being abused or as unnatural as it may look, it's not unnatural for the horses that are bred for it, that is just how they move! And so it's not your thing, that's fine, do something that YOU like and don't worry about the rest.

Now I do have to admit I cringe when I hear all QH/PH lumped together w/ WP bred horses. I promise my horse (PH) doesn't move anything like that!


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## Ariat164 (Nov 27, 2009)

farmpony84 said:


> I'm talking about ARAB BREED shows. They don't have the same conformations as QHs, no, but they are judged very similarly. I ride at an ARAB association show for my schooling shows becuase they judging is very fair. I'm not talking local shows, I'm not talking 4-h. I'm talking breed shows. Arab trainers actually train QH's very well and vice versa. In fact many times I've seen QH judges judging at the arab shows. A good judge will judge a horse FAIRLY according to the breed. The judging at the arabs shows in my opinion has been much less political then at the local hunt shows.


 i do show in ARAB Shows just so u know lol


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Thanks you haviris, that was essentially my entire point. I am flabbergasted that people would act like WP people are doing something abusive like soring. You don't see a horse out in the pasture doing Dressage movements anymore then you'll see the slowness of the WP gait. However, you WILL see the breeds bred to these disciplines actually moving much the same - a Warmblood may show the elasticity of an extended trot, or a piaffe as he plays. Likewise, if you watch a WP horse at liberty, they are extremely low headed and slow moving. 

You can compare the two disciplines almost side by side. As much as I think WP is about as boring as it gets, I can't think of any other discipline that is probably easier on both joints and minds of young horses. I cannot fathom how people would attack a discipline based on personal opinion of how a horse "should look" when nothing even remotely abusive is occuring. I'm pretty sure, without a doubt, you'll actually find more abusive techniques (rollkur) and mental breakdowns in a disipline like Dressage then you would in Western Pleasure. This doesn't mean we should write it off as a discipline, so why so much negativity towards WP?


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I guess I just have a personal aversion to seeing horses that look browbeaten and forlorn and maybe a little hypoglycemic slogging their way around an arena... but that is my personal preference...

Though I must say I find it a little more than funny when my non horsey hubby walks up behind me and sees the picture of the WP horse on the screen and asks "What is wrong with it? Is it sick? Did someone beat the crap out of it?"

But we do all have our rights to opinion Macabre and controversy is what makes the world go round...


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

And that's definately understandable! As I said, I don't personally enjoy WP at all for virtually the same reasons. I just think it's completely unfair to trash the discipline because they have a different preference.

And this is sort of what I was talking about - this stud is playing and acting goofy in the beginning, but about a minute in he starts loping and jogging at liberty. Now obviously, this is nowhere NEAR as slow as the gaits in the showring, but it's also a far more reserved at liberty movement then you're likely to see in any other breed. A Warmblood for example - he will show examples of a beatiful extended gait in the pasture, but you probably won't see that perfect full extension until you climb on board and teach him.

I'd love to see WP horses moving more like Zips Chocolate Chip is moving at liberty, but the point being these horses DO naturally move extremely slow and easy, with hardly any joint action we're used to seeing in English breeds.






Editted to add - ironically, if you actually look at him showing, he has an almost perfect lope. If WP could find this kind of lope again, they'd be back in business!!!


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> I'm pretty sure, without a doubt, you'll actually find more abusive techniques (rollkur) and mental breakdowns in a disipline like Dressage then you would in Western Pleasure


Are you kidding me? In dressage we do not venture into Tail Blocking practices to win in the show ring unike what I've seen and heard from in the WP world because tail swishing is frowned apon by judges.

Nor do we clamp our horses teeth shut with wires neither, to keep our horses from chewing the bit.

Not saying all do this, nor am I saying this is a common practice by those who are involved in the sport - but it has happened, and does happen.

Talk about abusive techniques - and rollkur was brought in by 1 rider, and opposed by many. Do not associate Classical Dressage to Anky and her lack of riding expertise. Just because Anky does it, doesn't mean 90% of all other Dressage enthusiasts do. It is not a trend in the competative dressage world, and you do not have to use this practice to place - people are not pressured into doing Rollkur to win unlike flat shows. 

In the WP world, you had to do that odd beat canter to place because it was what won. You have to do that horrid slow gate to win, beacuse it is what places you - to win, you must follow the trends - and therefore you see it plentiful in the show ring.

Come on.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Normally I respect your opinion MIEventer, but I think you're being ridiculous. Almost your entire arguement against WP is just because YOU don't think it looks good. Since when was doing a funky slow lope abusive? I will definately concur that you are right, and some abuses obviously occur, but it is STILL the same as Dressage - a couple bad apples ruining the bunch.

Quite frankly, I have never really found the Grand Prix Dressage horse look "pleasant". The necks are bulging, the mouths are foaming, the teeth are champing and nothing about it ever looks "relaxed". It is just as easy to judge Dressage from eye sight as it is to judge WP.

I'm only saying I think it's ridiculous to attack a discipline simply because you don't personally like it, and I really would have thought most people were above that. An opinion is one thing - I've already stated numerous times why I personally dislike WP, I just can't understand acting like it's a pock marked plague on the equestrian world.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Did you read my origional post? Where did I state that I do not like the sport because I do not think it looks good?


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

MIEventer said:


> In the WP world, you had to do that odd beat canter to place because it was what won. You have to do that horrid slow gate to win, beacuse it is what places you - to win, you must follow the trends - and therefore you see it plentiful in the show ring.


I am unsure what the rest of your arguement is here. I understand what you stated in your first topic, but it essentially all boils down to disliking what you see. I am unsure what changes would do to be more beneficial to the horse - he does not appear to be under any duress now?


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

No, my dislike has nothing to do with how it looks. My dislike it pointed out in my first post.

The post you coppied and pasted, is in connection to my first post.

Has absolutely nothing to do with how it looks. Same with others who posted in this thread - it is about the horses not being used correctly physcially.


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

I believe what MIE is trying to state is that the questionable "standards" that judges are considering to be win-worthy are pressuring people into using questionable practices on their horses.
Take Big Lick horses for example. The higher they step, the higher they place. What other reason would they be sored for, or padded more, or equipped with bigger chains? For the win, which the judge determines.




MIEventer said:


> Do not associate Classical Dressage to Anky and her lack of riding expertise. Just because Anky does it, doesn't mean 90% of all other Dressage enthusiasts do.


Yes. Anky, while she may be one of the top riders in the world (according to the moron judges), is probably one of the _worst_ representations of dressage riders.


Not to get off topic, but I thought I'd throw in the fact that rollkur is not just practiced in dressage. Almost every other discipline has known users, even if it is labled as something else. Most horsepeople just aren't aware that rollkur exists or that they are doing it.
Here's a couple of examples:
Showjumping! 
And... Western!! (Labled as the "bend head down system".)


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I can definately see where you guys are coming from. I just think if we made a topic about each discipline and asked everyone to list everything they hated about it, we'd all probably be pretty annoyed at the results.

Every group seems to think their way is correct - I swear, horses are like freaking religions! :lol: I just don't understand what makes today's Dressage better then WP. I've spoken to a lot of people who absolutely detest Dressage due to the sheer amount of work the horses seem to need - chiropractors, acupuncturists, massage therapy, injections. I also worked for a Dressage trainer who admitted Dressage was probably the number one cause of burn out in horses when brought up incorrectly. 

Obviously this doesn't make me hate Dressage, but it's just an example of how you could bring in a group of professionals and they could give hard evidence as to the wear and tear placed on the horses. We could probably do it in every single discipline due to the fact that any way we hash it, unless you're trail riding, horses just don't move "naturally" like we ask them to in the showring. So who gets to decide what is right and what is wrong?


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

Anybody have any evidence that WP is actually destroying these horses? I don't mean to sound stubborn, I just simply haven't heard of WP causing significant harm to a horse. I'm talking statistics. No, I don't really like how it looks. However, I haven't really seen any true evidence of abuse as of yet, except for the fact that they look sleepy and are moving slow. I think it would be immature to be subjective about this. We cannot expect a horse that is bred for this discipline to have the same kind of 'collection' a horse bred for dressage is.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Tail blocking, jaw wiring, blood letting... what more do you need to hear to consider the abuse involved roro?


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Honeysuga said:


> Tail blocking, jaw wiring, blood letting... what more do you need to hear to consider the abuse involved roro?


And this is why I'm leaving this thread now...

You can find this EVERYWHERE in many types of riding.
Not everyone does this, not everyone that wins does this.

Seems to me that no matter what people post here the same people feel the need to reply and attack Western Pleasure, lumping everyone into a ball and accusing them all of mistreating and damaging their horses. This is so untrue and I feel this thread is going to be stuck in purgatory for a loooonnnggg time becuase some people are so ignorant to assume that...


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## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

I dont get qhs i rode one when i was 8yo and a begginer and that is all i needed her for. ive looked at aqha hunter class pics and they are all bum hight with their head on the floor, they are not round (even when doing dressage) and dont jump that well.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>> Tail blocking, jaw wiring, blood letting... what more do you need to hear to consider the abuse involved roro? _

In *every* discipline, those who have no ethics will do whatever they think gives them an edge to win if they can get away with it. Doesn't mean everyone does it. Doesn't mean the majority of the winners do it. In fact, its more likely that it is someone with a horse that can't cut it or someone who can't get the best from a horse thru normal ethical training methods doing these things. If the horse was a top horse, and/or they were a talented trainer, the crutches and gimmicks wouldn't be necessary.

With the changes over the past years to what is considered a "top" WP or HUS horse, quality of MOVEMENT is what sets the best apart-- not everyone LIKES the stock horse WP or HUS style of movement, but the best horses DO have a natural ability toward it, and talented ethical training can bring the these naturally 'good movers' to the top. 

Most horses can be trained to go slower, or to have a lower headset. You can also cheat to get a horse slower or its head lower-- but low heads and being slow aren't enough to win under a good judge-- great movers win. If a horse is NOT a great mover, no amount of cheating or shortcutting can make it one.

(As far as jaw wiring-- thats one I have not heard of in stock horses. At the Worlds and Nationals in stock horse breeds it would be impossible, because the bit is dropped from the horse's mouth for inspection by the equipment judge for every class immediately before each horse enters the ring-- no way the horse could have his jaw or mouth wired shut.)


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Eastowest said:


> _>>>> Tail blocking, jaw wiring, blood letting... what more do you need to hear to consider the abuse involved roro? _
> 
> In *every* discipline, those who have no ethics will do whatever they think gives them an edge to win if they can get away with it. Doesn't mean everyone does it. Doesn't mean the majority of the winners do it. In fact, its more likely that it is someone with a horse that can't cut it or someone who can't get the best from a horse thru normal ethical training methods doing these things. If the horse was a top horse, and/or they were a talented trainer, the crutches and gimmicks wouldn't be necessary.
> 
> ...


Great post from someone who has some knowlege on the suject!


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I've spoken to a lot of people who absolutely detest Dressage due to the sheer amount of work the horses seem to need - chiropractors, acupuncturists, massage therapy, injections. I also worked for a Dressage trainer who admitted Dressage was probably the number one cause of burn out in horses when brought up incorrectly.


ya, it probably is one of the most damaging discpiplines when not done correctly, but if its not done correctly, then thats not the sport is it? haha thats sorta like saying: Stairs have got to be the worst things ever! every single time i go down them i get huge bruises from them! hhaha well, then you cant blame the stairs, you have to blame the person using them. :lol: haha best example i could come up with on short notice.

and for the chiropractors and all those people: I ride dressage, i will be doing FEI juniors this year, my horse doesnt get a dang thing, she gets treats and love, and she is fed correctly. She wont get anything special when we get to 3rd level and maybe even fourth either! I know, theres lots that do, but i know hundreds that dont. in my opinion, very few of those hroses need those, its mostly just the owner that THINKS they do.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Quite frankly, I have never really found the Grand Prix Dressage horse look "pleasant". The necks are bulging, the mouths are foaming, the teeth are champing and nothing about it ever looks "relaxed". It is just as easy to judge Dressage from eye sight as it is to judge WP.


that is neck/back muscle they are using 
the foaming mouth means the horse is relaxed and working through his back 
the teeth shouldnt be chomping... they should only be chewing

If everyone is going at eachothers disciplines why dont we just inform? now you know, when you see a horse foaming that that is a good sign, meaning that he is using his back.


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## Void (Jun 26, 2009)

I have to say coming from Hunterland where our horses go in a frame and then doing an Open show Championship that was mainly Breed Show horses and judged as a breed show I was properly disgusted by the way the horses went.

Though I have to say watching Worlds and Congress that most of the horses there actually do move well, and aren't as hollowed/strung out as the horses I saw at the state championships. We chalked it up to as it was a non AQHA affiliated event you get the bottom of the barrel people who wouldn't place at an AQHA event to save their lives, and its those shows rewarding lame horses, strungout horses that perpetuate the behaviour of the rider that everything is A-ok and they shouldn't change anything about what their doing. (same goes for low level eventing, and low level anything really, dressage, H/J, other breed shows -- thats where things get compounded.)

At the show in the warm up ring I was slow trotting my TB (who was relaxed and soft) by WP horses cantering. CANTERING... I busted up laughing it was too funny to me. 

That being said HUS is supposed to be judging a horse on the flat for its suitability over fences. Last I checked you couldn't jump with your nose dragging on the ground and with NO Impulsion. 

AQHA has been doing work to fix this, just like they are doing work to fix the Halter horses, which is a completely other rant of mine, showing my pretty nicely conformed horse against Muscle Monsters who've never been ridden a day in their life lol.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

ridergirl23 said:


> that is neck/back muscle they are using
> the foaming mouth means the horse is relaxed and working through his back
> the teeth shouldnt be chomping... they should only be chewing
> 
> If everyone is going at eachothers disciplines why dont we just inform? now you know, when you see a horse foaming that that is a good sign, meaning that he is using his back.


I am well aware of why they look that way, I worked with a top Dressage coach for over a year. My point was that it doesn't look any prettier then a WP horse does to the outside public - often, it looks worse, because the horses don't look the least bit happy.

I agree with others - I'm out of here. Obviously people wish to continue being narrow minded and sticking to the belief that only their own discipline is "right" and doesn't do any abusive things. 

And for the record - any Dressage rider that follows the classical route is absolutely and thoroughly disgusted with competitive Dressage and thinks it's a travesty to the entire concept of Dressage. I've spoken to several classical followers and they are ashamed that competitive Dressage is even called Dressage. So it doesn't matter who you speak to, someone will ALWAYS have the opinion that YOUR way is wrong. Doesn't feel so great does it?


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

I used to manage a farm for a family that owned, showed and bred WP QHs. On one occasion, I had to call the veterinarian out to do a lameness check on one of the mares. When he arrived, he raised one eyebrow and said "you know. . .I hate doing lameness checks on western pleasure horses. They _all _look lame to me!"

The one thing that kind of bothers me about the current trend in WP (and many of the other breed classes) is that they seem to reward the horses that seem farthest from suitable for their original purpose. Outside of the show ring, exactly what is the peanut-rolling painfully-slow Western Pleasure horse good for? Or, as Void pointed out, what is the point of encouraging a HUS horse to keep a low headset? That's hardly suitable for a horse that is expected to do any kind of over-fences work.

To be fair, since TWHs were already brought up in this thread, the Big Lick/padded divisions are every bit as useless and pointless when it comes to proving any kind of "suitability" for the horse outside of the show ring. The breed is supposed to have a swift, smooth, ground-covering gait that is easy on both horse and rider. The creepy crawly spider-walking flailing-legged things in the Performance Horse classes have to stop every few minutes to "blow out" and can't make a sharp turn without risk of tripping over its own feet. If that's supposed to be the horse to carry me around the countryside. . .thanks, but I think I'd do better just walking on my own two feet.

Back to the QH, I am not doubting that the lower headset is natural, because I have seen foals doing a very relaxed, balanced lope out in pasture, poll level with the withers. I just don't understand what the practical purpose is in having a horse that moves super slow and mechanical, other than to catch a judge's eye?


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ That's my main gripe about WP, Big Lick, etc. It has no practical purpose - All thw classes I show in are there to demonstrate the horses ability at activities they were bred to eprform outside the ring. ASH classes demonstrate the horses suitability as a farm hands horse, a working station horse, a horse that works cattle. Hunter classes here are designed to judge a horse that could carry a rider around a hunt course all day. So on and so forth...


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I am well aware of why they look that way, I worked with a top Dressage coach for over a year. My point was that it doesn't look any prettier then a WP horse does to the outside public - often, it looks worse, because the horses don't look the least bit happy.
> 
> I agree with others - I'm out of here. Obviously people wish to continue being narrow minded and sticking to the belief that only their own discipline is "right" and doesn't do any abusive things.
> 
> And for the record - any Dressage rider that follows the classical route is absolutely and thoroughly disgusted with competitive Dressage and thinks it's a travesty to the entire concept of Dressage. I've spoken to several classical followers and they are ashamed that competitive Dressage is even called Dressage. So it doesn't matter who you speak to, someone will ALWAYS have the opinion that YOUR way is wrong. Doesn't feel so great does it?


 I am not here to throw nasty comments back and forth. seriously? OF COURSE there will always be somethign wrong with every discipline as long as HUMAN BEINGS are involved. If you dont think a properly trained dressage horse looks happy, then you havent seen a properly trained dressage horse. 

*I agree with others - I'm out of here. Obviously people wish to continue being narrow minded and sticking to the belief that only their own discipline is "right" and doesn't do any abusive things.*

_i sure hope that wasnt directed at me, because i would have to tell you to go back and read my posts if it was._


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

wild_spot said:


> ^ That's my main gripe about WP, Big Lick, etc. It has no practical purpose - All thw classes I show in are there to demonstrate the horses ability at activities they were bred to eprform outside the ring. ASH classes demonstrate the horses suitability as a farm hands horse, a working station horse, a horse that works cattle. Hunter classes here are designed to judge a horse that could carry a rider around a hunt course all day. So on and so forth...


 
That is well said and the same could be said about several western events reined cowhorse, reining, roping, and cutting. These events show a working cowhorse at their best. Those other events that you meantioned their practical use is highly questionable at best. I don't personally see the practical side to allot of events but that is mainly from my point of veiw.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Breeds became breeds because they had a practical use that they excelled at. people wanted to maintain those traits - So they created a registry to track the breeding of the horse who were of a similar 'type' and excelled at the chosen task. The task can eb anything from a smooth ride (TWH) Working cattle (QH, ASH) Endurance (Arabs) Speed (TB) and so on.

Hence, I don't mind showing that is designed to show of the horses natural talent for thier chosen task - As mentioned QH/ASH events showing suitability to work cattle. But it is the showing that perverts the original task that I don't agree with - A big lick TWH has no similarity to the horse you would choose for a smooth ride over long distances. A WP horse has no similarity to a horse you would pick to have a pleasure ride out on a trail. 

Actually - the big lick TWH and the wp QH had quite similar original 'tasks' - A quiet, responsive horse to take for a decent ride and that are a pleasure to ride. They have just been taken in different directions - the TWH gait and head have gone up and out, and the wp QH has become slower and flatter.


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

Wild-Spot, you meant like reining and cutting horses that are too small and light in the bones department to be used as a working horse on a ranch. Of course some people will cliam that is the nature of the beast with shows making more money than they do as ranch horses. That is also called the (specialization for those events, I call it ruining a good horse and overspecializtion.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Exactly. It's when the showing becomes disconnected with the task that I have an issue.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>> If you dont think a properly trained dressage horse looks happy, then you havent seen a properly trained dressage horse. _

Ditto with WP and HUS-- the properly trained "naturals" will look comfortable and relaxed doing their job rather than sullen or sad.


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Get your facts in order;

*WESTERN PLEASURE HORSES ARE NOT COW HORSES.*
_We have cutting and ranch events for that._

The western pleasure horse was your finest, best mannered, best looking, most comfortable to ride horse that you took into town when you went. After a day of chasing cows you'd want somthing slow and easy to ride, somthing thats not choppy but very smooth. The horse had to be calm and quite to stand tied to the saloon all night while you relaxed. 

They were not really a 'work horse' becuase you rode your cow horses all day, put them up, and swtiched to your fresh horse to ride into town, not saying they never saw work, but they were not the best cow horse in your barn.


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

FlyinSoLow said:


> Get your facts in order;
> 
> *WESTERN PLEASURE HORSES ARE NOT COW HORSES.*
> _We have cutting and ranch events for that._
> ...


That is just another example of the overspecialization for the show ring.


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Kentucky said:


> That is just another example of the overspecialization for the show ring.


And it's not just a quarter horse thing.


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

FlyinSoLow said:


> Get your facts in order;
> 
> *WESTERN PLEASURE HORSES ARE NOT COW HORSES.*
> _We have cutting and ranch events for that._
> ...


But, at the rate the modern WP horse moves, it'd be the middle of the night before you even got to town.:lol:


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Jolly Badger said:


> But, at the rate the modern WP horse moves, it'd be the middle of the night before you even got to town.:lol:


So true :lol:... I guess thats your excuse for being out so late...

"But hunny, it ain't my fault.... the darn horse is so slow.. I left the bar at 8:00pm I swear..."


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

mieventer said:


> well, i know that getting your horse to stretch down, long and low is good. Many top level riders incorporate it into their daily riding, from gp jumpers, upper level dressage and eventing - because the action gets them to work their topline and stretches their muscles.
> 
> But in order for this to work, the horse has to be on their back end, spine rounded *lifted* and tracking up. The horse has to be moving upwards in their shoulders, not downwards.
> 
> ...


amen!!!


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

Jolly Badger said:


> But, at the rate the modern WP horse moves, it'd be the middle of the night before you even got to town.:lol:


AMEN to that,too.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

Jolly Badger said:


> But, at the rate the modern WP horse moves, it'd be the middle of the night before you even got to town.:lol:


 i laughed out loud at this! 

and about the overspecilizationing(haha what?) for the show ring, i think pretty much everyone does that! dressage was originanally training the hrose for war... if you even MENTIONED to some dressage horse owners about riding OUTSIDE THE ARENA, they woudl freak and maybe even hyperventalate. i think a lot of horses now adays have lost any usefullness... but hey, how many people take their horses out to war nowadays anyway? riding is a sport, it has really changed over the years. people used to take their ranch horses to rodeos (which im sure a lot still do) but now its just a sport, and its not hurting anyone (exept for the abusers,who are hurting the hroses, BUT HEY, WHO ISNT TRYING TO GET RID OF THEM???) so theres really no problem with it! een if you dont like it, we hav enough people bashing horseback riding, why the heck are we bashing eachother now?? tehehe that was my epiphiny of the day!


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ I guess that's why I like my breed - They are still majorly used for their original purpose - Stock work and daily tasks on big cattle stations.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^Have to agree with you Wild Spot. I have a hard time imagining myself running down a cow, roping it, and dragging it into a trailer with a WP horse. But I guess to each their own, I need working horses so that is what I prefer. A WP horse would not be practical with most of the tasks that I have to do.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I'm the same - I don't mind if it is't MY task, but I don't see the point of creating horses that aren't good at ANY task outside the show ring.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>but I don't see the point of creating horses that aren't good at ANY task outside the show ring. 
_
Have you ever owned or ridden a "retired" WP/HUS show horse? I have. I bought an x-show mare for my daughter to learn to ride on. BEST investment I EVER made. We never showed her-- only trail rode and had lessons on her. My daughter is a timid rider and the mare's easy, smooth gaits and quiet personality helped her immensley. IMO there is a BIG demand for "beginner" horses, and this type of horse fills the niche brilliantly-- this mare certainly WAS good for something outside the show ring.


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## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

I agree with ETW, WP have a lot of uses outside of the ring, one of them being that many of them are great for beginners because of their gentle nature and their slow gaits that are great for building confidence. I also thoroughly enjoy riding WP horses on trail rides, I may not be the fastest horse going down the trail, but I find that at least the WP horses I rode were less spooky and took everything in stride.


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

Eastowest said:


> _>>>but I don't see the point of creating horses that aren't good at ANY task outside the show ring. _
> 
> Have you ever owned or ridden a "retired" WP/HUS show horse? I have. I bought an x-show mare for my daughter to learn to ride on. BEST investment I EVER made. We never showed her-- only trail rode and had lessons on her. My daughter is a timid rider and the mare's easy, smooth gaits and quiet personality helped her immensley. IMO there is a BIG demand for "beginner" horses, and this type of horse fills the niche brilliantly-- this mare certainly WAS good for something outside the show ring.


 
That is great for your daughter but an retired ranch could of been a better trail horse. A retired ranch horse seen just about anything and everything that is on the trail and then some, and most of those horse enjoy taking it easy. That is way those horses were commanding the record price that they were getting around 1999 to 2003 time period.


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Kentucky said:


> That is great for your daughter but an retired ranch could of been a better trail horse. A retired ranch horse seen just about anything and everything that is on the trail and then some, and most of those horse enjoy taking it easy. That is way those horses were commanding the record price that they were getting around 1999 to 2003 time period.


Have you ever been to the quarter horse congress?

Gosh, if you can ride your horse around there and have him be nice and relaxed then your horse is truely ready for anything you throw at him. :lol:


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

^ No I have not, and we are talking about different kind of problems, the ones i was thinking of were wildlife encounter. I was on a trail rider and my horse had a black snake crawler underneath him. All he did wasdance around abit. all of horses would have had a bucking fit. flocks of turkeys have t took off around him and he didn't care at all. 

You are talking about encounters with loud noises and people.


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

Kentucky said:


> ^ No I have not, and we are talking about different kind of problems, the ones i was thinking of were wildlife encounter. I was on a trail rider and my horse had a black snake crawler underneath him. All he did wasdance around abit. all of horses would have had a bucking fit. flocks of turkeys have t took off around him and he didn't care at all.
> 
> You are talking about encounters with loud noises and people.


Agreed. I've seen the warm up ring at Congress. It's a madhouse. 

And yet, the people I used to work for once tried to take their WP horses (all of which had been to Congress and other large shows) on a trail ride at the local state park. 

Apparently the experience was so bad, with the horses freaking out about crossing streams (even shallow ones), seeing wildlife, running into hikers, and really terrifying stuff like leaves blowing. . .they said they would never do it again. 

Granted, the trails are not beautiful, flat, smooth, dry, well-groomed bridle paths. You have to cross streams and deal with mud and duck under branches, and the horse has to step over roots and rocks and go up and down hills (some of them muddy, so descents are more like slides). To me, that's my kind of riding. For them, it was a nightmare.

As far as the specialization, I remember one time when my boss was lamenting about the fact that one of the colts she'd bred was not really cut out for WP so she wouldn't get the kind of money she'd hoped for a horse with his breeding. He was a very pretty little bay with a lot of personality and I couldn't understand why she was so down on him. Being naive, I suggested that maybe there were other disciplines he might do well in. She just looked at me like I had two heads and said "but he's a Western Pleasure horse!" 

That mentality makes no sense to me. Why try to make a horse "fit" into a discipline it isn't suited for? My little black TWH gelding was evaluated as a youngster and determined that he wasn't cut out for The Big Lick ring, so they sold him (thank GOD!!!) to the people I later purchased him from. 

He's now just a few months shy of twelve years old and an incredible trail horse. . .beautiful, willing, alert, responsive, gentle temperament that will tackle any obstacle you put in front of him, and he absolutely LOVES to be out on the trail and camping. 

What would have happened if the people who bred him said "but he's from Big Lick breeding, he's SUPPOSED to be a performance horse," and put him into training anyway? Fans of a lot of different breeds (including TWHs, QHs, Arabians, etc) like to brag about how versatile their breed is. . .yet, there's not so much versatility found in the individuals of that breed. IMO, there can be such a thing as "too much" specialization.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

This mare made a GREAT trail horse. She was sure footed and actually somewhat forward at the walk and jog when not in an arena. 

She had been to ApHC Worlds. She had been shown all over the central and western USA. She was bombproof and couldn't have cared less about traffic, noises, terrain, or wildlife (we live on a 150 farm and have wild turkey, deer, racoon, possums, snakes, and all manner of little crawly stuff around and she could have cared less.) 

Don't assume that just because a horse was trained for and a winner in WP and HUS that they are ditzy or never have seen the outdoors, LOL. I talked to her breeders and her previous owners before buying her and among other things I discovered, was that this particular mare was raised in a Colorado pasture until she was almost 2 and then was brought in for training. thats how these top "arena" breeders like to raise their performance babies. But even if she hadn't been raised that way, her unflappable personality would have allowed her to adapt to a variety of situations.

Once out of arena, not all retired WP/HUS horses insist on always moving at a crawl either-- just like not all retired race horses continue to go everywhere at a full-out gallop. Well bred athletic horses can shift gears between careers better than some of you seem to realize.


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Ok, well, as I'm sure everyone here knows a horse is only as versatile as his/her training.

That being said, all the western pleasure horses I have seen make equally as good trail horses.... as long as you take the time to trail ride them. 

Also, everyone I trained under or around trail road their horses... but I guess I just got lucky.

AND we don't even look at a horses pedigree anymore becuase there is so much out there; we look at the conformation, then we ride them, then we see what they want to do and are capable of doing and we take them in that direction. 
No use trying to fit a large ball into a little triangle hole. All your going to do is brake somthing.

The last trainer I worked under had a buckskin quarter horse gelding that was bred for halter.... but you would NEVER know looking at him. With some time under saddle he turned out to be a wonderful trail horse, both inside and outside the arena. :wink:

Bloodlines are nice, and they do help; but they are not everything.
The app colt I have now isn't really bred for anything... do you suggest I do nothing with him then? (j/k of course he needs a job!)


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

I don't think I would enjoy using a WP horse as a trail horse, although I'm guessing it's a personal thing, depending on what type of trail ride you like. Our gelding is not a WP horse, but he's as slow as one, 10 minutes into a ride w/ him I'm ready to turn back, he's very laid back and not easily bothered by things, fine w/ wildlife and traffic. My mare on the other hand moves right along, our nomal trail is down the dirt road, w/ her before I know it I'm at the highway and disappointed to be turning back (unless I was smart enough to lock the dogs up before I left, then I can keep going) she's also great w/ traffic and wildlife, but much bothers her. She's not a beginner horse though (and I don't want her to be).

I've only owned one mostly WP bred horse, he was not trained for it, but moved just like one. His temperment was definately good for trail riding! But I want to move along abit more then he wanted to. (sadly I think his current owner ruined him)


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I;m sure they would be great begginer horses - However that isn't a 'task' how I was implying - It doesn't require a specific build or instinct - It just requires the right temperament. Any horse, as long as it has the mind, can be a great begginner horse.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

^^and its trained well enough to be.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Not really - A begginner (True begginner) horse really only has to walk, trot, canter, stop and steer and be tolerant. It's when kids start honing the skills they have that more education comes in - Even then it is still pretty basic, adding in lateral movement, and solidness around a small jumps course, gaming pattern, etc.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

its still has to be trained to do that. I dont think a green horse that can do that will teach a kid as much, but thats just MHO.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

The comment being responded to was that WP/HUS show horses don't have any purpose besides/after the show ring.

My response and I believe others' responses were pointing out that these horses CAN and DO go on to do various things besides JUST show in the arena. (Again-- I will draw the comparison of race horses-- running TBs are bred specifically to go really fast at the gallop, Standardbreds are bred specifically to go really fast at the trot or pace-- Everyone knows that just because these horses are specifically bred to race doesn't mean they can't ever do anything else.)

One of the reasons so many WHY WP/HUS horses have such a beginner-friendly temperaments is that a quiet demeanor is a HUGE advantage to perform well in their sport, so that quiet demeanor is bred for. If you have a flighty, jumpy, reactive youngster, chances are it is not going to make a good WP horse compared to its quiet cousin (talent for movement beig equal).


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## Dani9192 (Jan 2, 2010)

Quarter horses naturally carry their head pretty low, compared to other horse, not to say there aren't exceptions, but thats where i think it has evolved from. My horse carries her head low naturally, i actually have to work to bring it up a little lol  see what i'm saying though?


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## RadHenry09 (Mar 22, 2009)

haviris said:


> I don't think I would enjoy using a WP horse as a trail horse, although I'm guessing it's a personal thing, depending on what type of trail ride you like. Our gelding is not a WP horse, but he's as slow as one, 10 minutes into a ride w/ him I'm ready to turn back, he's very laid back and not easily bothered by things, fine w/ wildlife and traffic. My mare on the other hand moves right along, our nomal trail is down the dirt road, w/ her before I know it I'm at the highway and disappointed to be turning back (unless I was smart enough to lock the dogs up before I left, then I can keep going) she's also great w/ traffic and wildlife, but much bothers her. She's not a beginner horse though (and I don't want her to be).
> 
> I've only owned one mostly WP bred horse, he was not trained for it, but moved just like one. His temperment was definately good for trail riding! But I want to move along abit more then he wanted to. (sadly I think his current owner ruined him)


Our Paint is the same way , not easily bothered by much and handles most everything like a champ on the trail ( we go under a interstate over pass to get to one of the trails and it doesnt phase him on bit)
My daughter rides him and she is 10 , hasnt taken him on any trails just yet but rides him in the ring and has taken him to shows. She is showing him in 4H this year . I kinda feel like they wont be judged fairly because he is not a HUS/WP type..He moves out at a trot and conformation wise his head goes up at a trot. He will walk with his neck level with his withers , and it getting better at slowing his trot but he will never look like a HUS/WP horse. At the most if I can get him to have his head level with his withers at a trot that would be a great improvement. In our area there is a lot of AQHA shows and most everyone except the gaming horses have them it seems. I hope she isnt too upset if they dont place her well but that seems to be what the judge is looking for. All in all , he is an awesome trail horse and a great kids horse so that in itself to me he is worth his weight in gold. : )


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