# E Collar training for horses......



## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

I am very interested in what others have to say. I don't think it is abusive, as long as you are not holding the shock button for extended periods of time and as long as your timing is spot on. They have collars with a vibrate or tone setting, not just shock.

My thinking is it is similar to how I broke Chief of pawing while tied up. I subtly tossed a small rock (gravel size) at his chest or bum whenever he started pawing. The surprise I think is what snaps them out of it. I can see the benefit of the long range control for habits that you are not always going to be right there to correct, such as pawing.

Now with cribbing, I am not so sure. I know it becomes a compulsion and more than just a habit. Maybe it would work as an intervention in the VERY early stages, but I think it would just add stress to an already established cribber, and as I understand it, the more stressed a horse, the greater the compulsion to crib.

Just my $0.02. No experience with horses and e-collars, but plenty with e-collars and dogs.


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

karliejaye said:


> Now with cribbing, I am not so sure. I know it becomes a compulsion and more than just a habit. Maybe it would work as an intervention in the VERY early stages, but I think it would just add stress to an already established cribber, and as I understand it, the more stressed a horse, the greater the compulsion to crib.


Yes, I too am a little skeptical about its use for a cribbing horse, but it was part of the conversation I had so I included it.

For a time tritronics actually marketed a ECollar specifically targeted at the horse market.

Jim


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It is something I thought about to cure door bangers (at feeding time) Its such an annoying habit. 
I did have success with a water pistol with one horse but when I tried that with our newest horse she nearly bounced off the ceiling then shot back and hit the back wall with such a force I thought she'd go right through it, fortunately just a few minor scrapes on her legs - so IMO - if you do try the ECollar you might want to have someone have a good hold on the horse just in case it panics and bolts and injures itself


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

No, have not used one, and probably would not, but that is not to say that someone in particular situation might find correct application

Cribbing, for instance, is a sterio typi behavior, often brought about by frustration in confinement. I know of very few horses, if any, that cribbed, enjoying full time turnout, and the ability to eat like a horse, even if the amount needs to be regulated by such things a grazing muzzles and slow feeder hay nets
Thus, if need be, I rather prevent the attempt to crib, using a cribbing collar, or avoid the chance of that habit developing in the first place, through management
Of course, once a horse has become a confirmed cribber, he will have learned that vise, and continue to crib, even turned out, thus the prevention , versus trying to cure cribbing
Shocking a cribbing horse, in my opinion, might stop him from cribbing, but will escalate the mental stress that caused him to crib in the first place, using a pain deterrent.
Pawing----horses that regularly are tied up solid, by themselves , learn that pawing gets them nowhere, thus accept standing tied solid without pawing and fussing
I find that people often realize that horses get good/solid under saddle, through consistent and regular riding, yet they expect that same horse to stand quietly , when it has never been a skill he was really made to learn in the first place, thus they look for a quick fix.
Our horses stand tied solid over night, and shows where one must tie to at trailer, ect, with no pawing
They weren't born that way, but from the time I first started them under saddle, they spent time afterwards, tied solid in a stall, in the barn, by themselves. They were let back out when they were standing quiet, not when they were fussing or pawing. You reward the right thing, and that is positive training, versus punishing a horse that paws. Again, that is only going to escalte the mental fustration that caused him to paw in the first place
I don't always tie horse up, after he is past the green stage,after riding, but will every once in awhile. They stand quiet, waiting for my return, and I have to confess, that a few times I have gone on doing yard work, house work, etc, and forgot that horse tied in the barn isle!
The horse is standing there so quiet, patiently waiting for my return, that it is possible to forget about that horse for a little while, until walking into the barn, I see him there, or notice him missing from the pasture (disclaimer-this does not happen often, LOL! )


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## Trig (Feb 7, 2015)

Smilie said:


> No, have not used one, and probably would not, but that is not to say that someone in particular situation might find correct application
> 
> Cribbing, for instance, is a sterio typi behavior, often brought about by frustration in confinement. I know of very few horses, if any, that cribbed, enjoying full time turnout, and the ability to eat like a horse, even if the amount needs to be regulated by such things a grazing muzzles and slow feeder hay nets
> Thus, if need be, I rather prevent the attempt to crib, using a cribbing collar, or avoid the chance of that habit developing in the first place, through management
> ...


 Strange.

I knew a horse that was turned out 24/7 (free choice stall) who got worked very often (almost everyday), had many "horse-friends" that he could interact with (15-16? I think...), free choice hay 24/7, 100 (yes 100) acres of land to do whatever and he still cribbed.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Every cribber I've had still cribbed even when turned out 24/7 - one was actually worse than when stabled
A research trial done recently indicated that cribbing somehow reduces stress levels in the horse by lowering cortisol and heart rate (from raised) so unless they're losing weight because they aren't eating or getting gas colic all the time they're best left to get on with it


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Trig said:


> Strange.
> 
> 
> 
> I knew a horse that was turned out 24/7 (free choice stall) who got worked very often (almost everyday), had many "horse-friends" that he could interact with (15-16? I think...), free choice hay 24/7, 100 (yes 100) acres of land to do whatever and he still cribbed.


 Was thAt horse raised that way?
Once the cribbing vise is established, a horse will continue to crib, just like someone that starts smoking-it becomes addictive
I know of a former PMU rancher, that bought a stud, who was already a cribber when purchased. That stud would get thin , turned out with mares, in lush pasture, because if he was not breeding mares, he was sucking a fence post.

I raised horses for over 30 years, and not one horse became a cribber, as I strongly believe in turn out, even with my show horses
I am not saying that it is impossible for a horse to become a cribber, raised with turnout, as there is that Bell curve. That is where the mean shows people that don't smoke don't get lung cancer, but on either end of that curve, are people on one end that never smoke, and yet get lung cancer, and one the other end, people that smoke all their life and never get lung cancer
That does not change the risk of getting lung cancer if you smoke, nor having a horse crib that is confined


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

As for using that collar, for a horse that paws, I thought of that today, and came up with a good reason not to
Horses are flight animals, and if you shock that horse, tied to, say your trailer, for pawing, he might start to associate the trailer itself with that experience.
You might also cause the horse to pull back, as his flight instinct kicks in


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is a good article on sterio typi behavior, that includes cribbing, with risk factors

http://www2.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/ASC/ASC212/ASC212.pdf


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I have used a dog shock collar on several horses. I will tell you how it played out.

I used one on 3 cribbers -- 2 OTQHs I bought for barrel prospects and one old show horse that had seriously cribbed for many years before I got him. One of the QHs straight off the track had just started cribbing. As a matter of fact, when I went to the trainer to look at him he grabbed the top of the door. He swore he had never seen or heard him suck air before that time. His teeth were straight, so he had not cribbed much. I shocked him 3 or 4 times after he ate and I never sow him crib again. He reached for his door a few times and then stepped back and went back to eating hay. So -- +1

The second one was also a OTQH -- an own son of Top Moon -- obviously many years ago. He was too stupid to ever blame the cribbing anf I gave up on him. He cribbed on his door so I shocked him. It made him so afraid of his door it took two people to get him out of his stall the next day. He tried to crib on his feed tub and he refused to eat feed out of it even though it was empty when he got shocked. I had to put him in a different stall. He cribbed on the top of his hay feeder. I shocked him and he never ate hay out of it again. He just never made the right connection. He blamed everything but the behavior for the shock. +1 -1 =0

The third one was the old show horse. Did not phase him. I hid in the hay barn and watched and listened where he could not see me. I shocked him when he cribbed, so he would sneak around and go out into his pen and crib on the fence. I shocked him every time he cribbed so he just stood there. I finally went to the house and the next morning he was just cribbing away until he saw me. He had only learned not to crib when he know or sensed i was there. This horse would crib on pasture and is the only horse I have owned that would crib on the top of a steel Tee Post. So -- +1 -2 = -1

I used the collar on several kickers that kicked in a stall and that kicked in a trailer. It was 100% successful with absolutely no downside, no confusion and no anxiety. It did exactly what it was supposed to do. I had a friend in California that had a mare nearly cripple herself in a trailer. I sent the collar to her and she stopped her show mare from kicking in the trailer. She never kicked again. So, for kicking -- it was about +8 -0

I used it on two horses that pawed extremely badly in stalls at feeding time. It stopped both of them, but they were better about it when I was there. I think they both figured out that I was doing it when I really wanted them to think the pawing did it to them. But, it was still a +.

I also used it on a evil broodmare that ran at her fence hitting it hard trying to bite the mare in the next pen. She was horrible and did not even have a foal on her. Both mares were visiting mares, so I called the owner of the evil one and asked if he minded if I shocked her for bouncing off of the fence. He response was "Please do!" He said he would have sold her years before but she had really good foals. It worked when we fed and were around. It was not effective to change her disposition, but did keep her decent when it was chore time and that was when she was worst.

So, all in all, it has been really effective for stall and trailer kickers but only so-so for other stuff. It worked to completely stop a horse that was just starting to crib but I would not even bother trying in on another long-term cribber. I know a person that tried it on a waver and it made the horse worse. I told him I did not think it was the thing to do, but he tried it and it sure did not work -- at all.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Thanks for the hands on experience, Cheri
I can see where it is a stop gap method for horses that already have learned a vise-much like the situation when you have to use whatever, to correct a horse that has learned he can pull away from a handler, or run through a bit
in both cases, it is far better that the horse never learns the vise in the first place, though correct handling, training , etc

I know of people that have hobbled horses, to teach them not to paw while tied.
Much like the shock collar in some cases, the horses did not paw, as long as the hobbles were on, but continued to paw once they were not there

Just taking the result of a water trough, that developed a heater problem, where the horse got shocked-it took a hell of a lot of time to convince my horses that it was safe to drink out of that trough again. 

I know that you have dealt with many more problem horses, training for the public, thus had to use whatever it took to fix screw ups from others

I have had the luxury, if you wish to call it that, to just work and train the horses we raised, and I know you will agree that it is better to train and manage horses so that they never develope those vises in the first place
Once they do though, you have to try and re -train them by never letting them be successful again, in playing out those behaviors
I did buy a TB/App mare off of the track, and she halter pulled, reared, etc, In that case, I used what I had to, to salvage her, including tying her up with a body rope, and holding her down, after she went over backwards

Sterio typi behaviors occur very often when the ability of the horse to adapt, has exceeded his ability to do so
As one equine DVM , who specialized in equine behavioral problems, stated 'horses are very adaptable, but we must be sure never to exceed their ability to do so'
. Okay, i'm getting off topic a bit, on one of my favorite rants!

I guess I hate seeing horses medicated, whether for ulcers, or so they don't stall pace, prevented from cribbing ect, when letting them eat and live like horses would have prevented the vices in the first place. Yes, correct the vise once it occurs, but then try and manage and feed your horses so they never have the mental stress that has them developing these vises in the first place. Train them to tie by spending time doing so


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Personally, I would never use a shock collar on any animal. Two things i would do instead, go back to basics in their training, and more turn-out time.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I would not personally use one(mainly because 'absolute lowest setting' may still be pretty harsh - horses feel electricity FAR more than us!), generally speaking(there may be exceptions, so never say never). For general training, I don't think focussing on punishment is a good move either. You get way more from focussing on positives. But as far as punishment goes, assuming it's used well and it isn't too aversive(& so reactive) to the horse in the circumstances, I don't have a problem with them in principle. 

I absolutely wouldn't use them for stopping obsessive coping behaviours such as cribbing & weaving though.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

All of the horses we have encountered that were cribbers or stall or trailer kickers, came to us with those habits. It was waaaay past 'training' them to behave. One of the trailer kickers had nearly crippled herself. She had $25,000.00 of training in her for cutting and could not be hauled. Two times of putting a collar on her and she never kicked again -- and had a successful show career after that. They also changed trainers as the earlier trainer was very toxic. We inherited 3 of his 'wrecks'. All were completely neurotic and dangerous to themselves or to people, but, the harm had already been done. One of them went on to score the highest score ever posted in the Eastern NCHA Championships in Jackson, Miss. 

While it sounds good to let horses be horses and to give them more turn-out time, this is just not possible for some horses with some occupations. Some horses, like race horses, by virtue of the conditioning required to perform at that high level, just cannot spend a lot of time turned out and still be able to perform. 

We have no problem with keeping all of our horses out 24/7 and feeding free-choice grass hay. But, I could not get them show-ready doing this. Granted, we no longer show, but for some things, you just can't have it both ways. Now, with plenty of turnout or full-time turnout, we do not have to even give a thought to ulcers, stall vices or even things like colic. But, we also do not condem people whose life revolves around showing or racing or some other sport that is not compatible with keeping horses turned out.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

I've only had experience with collars and dogs, and then only with vibrating collars and deaf dogs. With that situation, you generally want to teach the dog that when th collar vibrates, it needs to check in with you to find out what the next command is: come, down, stay, whatever. You really have to prepare the dog for the vibration, as the first time they feel it they tend to startle and run.

I tried to use shock collars with an invisible boundry fence, and splurged for the really expensive one for my two shepherds and one pittie, but overtrained them and only succeeded in teaching them to turn sharply and leap back with much animation when they got the warning tone. Then they started kind of turning on each other in their over excited state, just a shade shy of real aggression. The supplied trainer said she didn't know what to do, so the project was abandoned

I think timing has to be absolutely perfect with something like this.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I just did some googling , concerning shock collars and horses.
The article is by a vet and she gives case studies where it did work on aggressive horses, or introducing a new horse to the herd , BUT stressed that one needs to use a collar designed for horses, as they feel electricity at a much lower level then us or dogs-hense the fact that you can feel nothing when a trough water heater is faulty, but the horse will detect that very low current and stop drinking
As for showing and turn out,it is possible, but that does not mean full time pasture and unlimited grazing, with no blanket
I used to stall my show horses a lot more, until the work of people like Dr Robert Bowker demonstrated how confinement affected the development of the back of a horse's foot,and general hoof health, and also work by other equine professionals that show how intricately a horse's digestion is bound to being able to move almost full time
Thus, My show horse is in a large dry lot, along with my IR mare, with a sheet and a shelter and with slow feeder hay nets. She goes out on limited pasture, with a grazing muzzle for half a day, and I ride her almost daily in the 'non winter months
She is in show shape, so it can be done. Of course, I'm not trying to show at the World level
She is in a stall enough, to accept being stalled at shows and over night, after I have bathed her(double wrapped as she is white! )

Anyway, here is a link tot hat study and equine shock collars. Good info on how to use them also

Stopping Aggression Problems With an Equine Shock Collar | TheHorse.com





Yes, race horses are confined, fed high grain diets, then exercised in short bursts of high energy work, and it does have them win races, but not without a price
Their feet pay a price, and part of their break down rate is directly due not just to the extreme stress put on their body as an elite athlete, but contributing factors are both their age and management,but then, it is a business

Sorry, not trying to preach, as all horse disciplines have their dark side, and some horses, like Cheri mentioned, are a last resort sort of thing, far as either fixing them, or discarding them.
However, before one gets to this point, maybe think how we created such a horse in the first place, and thus learn how not to keep repeating the same mistakes on the next horses we raise and train


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

Thank you Cheri for your responses. While I can see that many have gotten hung up on, or have only used the collar for behavior issues, my intended purpose, or at least consideration, will be to add "finish" to ground tie. We use ECollars extensively with bird dogs, and I am more than aware of the effects of inappropriate, or excessive use of the collar.

I personally just can not wrap my way of thinking around using a collar on a horse, I appreciate the responses so far and will be continuing to research the topic, before I make any final decisions.

Thanks
Jim


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

On the pawing I was at a barn for 5 years and there was a mare who was worked at least 5 days a week and stood tied for quite a while both before and after riding and she still pawed and she still does. On the other hand one of my horses would paw if left alone while tied but if she pawed she stood there a lot longer and as soon as she settled down she got a rub or a treat...she no longer paws anymore


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

When a shock collar is used incorrectly on a dog, the result is much the same as Cherie's experience with the OTQH (Top Moon horse). The dog will associate whatever the dog is near with the shock. This happens with a dog that is not in drive, and does not understand clearly the behavior being asked and does not understand clearly the E collar's association (has never had an E Collar on and is over stimulated by the collar). 

With dogs, you introduce the collar at the LOWEST setting with the dog in DRIVE. I get the dog jacked up for a ball and then throw the ball and tap tap tap as the dog is going for the ball. The stim, in this case, INCREASES the dog's drive (and remember, it is a very very very low stim). The object is to increase focus on the job and increase drive (first) and NOT USE it as punishment. 

ONLY when the dog is fully sensitized and is VERY CLEAR as to the behavior asked, can the E Collar be used as punishment. 

This is why these collars are much more effective on high drive confident dogs and do not work as well on softer, low drive dogs. 

Now, lets look at the horse situation. In order for punishment to be associated with a behavior, it must come when the animal is thinking about doing the behavior, not as the behavior is happening. Going back to the OTQH zapping him as he reached for the object to crib on and getting shocked created an association with the object as bad.. not the behavior as bad. If the horse gave off body language that it was thinking of cribbing before reaching for the object, the success of the connection of punishment for the behavior MIGHT have been made. As the horse is reaching for the "whatever" is too late.

With dogs, when you start to use the stim as a negative, the dog must CLEARLY understand what is being asked and CLEARLY be choosing to not do that. You, as the handler must also CLEARLY let the dog know when he is right but also, just as clearly when he is not right. Black and white is how it goes. You want the dog to associate the stim with your displeasure. It is a tricky line to walk and you best read your dog right and be mindful of the level of stim needed. 

Cherie's story really makes it clear. With horses.. you need to stim when they are thinking of doing something, not after the behavior has started. 

As with all training, timing is everything.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Cheri's remark about the horses that only really responded positively when they could see the handler was interesting. 
We've found (by total accident) that K for some reason hates the noise of a stone rattling in a can so when she starts to door kick we would only have to go to pick up that can and she steps back and waits patiently. If she can't see you then the habit comes back immediately.


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## Sugar (Jan 30, 2015)

Cherie said:


> All of the horses we have encountered that were cribbers or stall or trailer kickers, came to us with those habits. It was waaaay past 'training' them to behave.


I agree so much with this. I never thought I would ever use a "shock collar" on a dog. EVER. And then we got *that* dog from the shelter. And WOW what a difference. It broke through where that human interaction just couldn't seem to. 

We've never used one since, but I'm no longer uber-opinionated about it.

I laugh at the thought of using it on my mare. She has a couple of irksome habits, but they do not induce me to that. But I tell you if I had a kicker, after reading this thread, I would absolutely put it very high on the consideration list. There are some things with horses that you just cannot allow. 

I'm always on my kids about kicking, and I can see they don't really *get* it, because Rhi isn't a kicker. But I dislike allowing them into "the kick zone". Well we were watching this guy train, via lassoing a hind foot, so the horse was of course kicking out a LOT. And I finally got to show my kids, "You see that? You see how FAST that is? Look at that! You'll never see the big one coming."


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## Canterklutz (Jul 20, 2012)

For a moment I thought the title of this thread was referring to Elizabethan collars. :facepalm

I know of someone who used a shock collar to correct a rearing habit that occurred both on the ground and undersaddle. They used a shock collar in a situation they knew the horse would rear (on the ground without a rider of course) and the horse fell down in a daze. They only shocked the horse once and the horse never reared again. He is now an upper level event horse.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Cheri's remark about the horses that only really responded positively when they could see the handler was interesting.
> We've found (by total accident) that K for some reason hates the noise of a stone rattling in a can so when she starts to door kick we would only have to go to pick up that can and she steps back and waits patiently. If she can't see you then the habit comes back immediately.


Well, if you read that article I posted, the reason is right there. Horses aren;t stupid, and why the vet suggested that the horse wears that collar (one designed for horses, not for dogs )for a few days before you use it, as the horse otherwise learns he only gets shocked when wearing it.
Ditto for the person-does not take a horse long to realize he doesn't get shocked unless a person is somewhere near by, if that human is always visible when the horse gets shocked


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Elana said:


> When a shock collar is used incorrectly on a dog, the result is much the same as Cherie's experience with the OTQH (Top Moon horse). The dog will associate whatever the dog is near with the shock. This happens with a dog that is not in drive, and does not understand clearly the behavior being asked and does not understand clearly the E collar's association (has never had an E Collar on and is over stimulated by the collar).
> 
> With dogs, you introduce the collar at the LOWEST setting with the dog in DRIVE. I get the dog jacked up for a ball and then throw the ball and tap tap tap as the dog is going for the ball. The stim, in this case, INCREASES the dog's drive (and remember, it is a very very very low stim). The object is to increase focus on the job and increase drive (first) and NOT USE it as punishment.
> 
> ...


Good points, but you have to consider that a horse is not a dog, and also that dog shock collars should not be used on horses
The link I posted, is by a vet, and goes pretty much into greater detail and the way a shock collar should be used with horses, their reaction, including timing, then mere guessing and comparisons to dogs
The article is by an equine vet that studied the use of shock collars on horses


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sugar said:


> I agree so much with this. I never thought I would ever use a "shock collar" on a dog. EVER. And then we got *that* dog from the shelter. And WOW what a difference. It broke through where that human interaction just couldn't seem to.
> 
> We've never used one since, but I'm no longer uber-opinionated about it.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with not letting bad habits go un corrected, BUT the horses Cheri had to deal with, came with those habits. Cheri has had to re -trian some pretty bad horses, that poor horsemen created
So, if you own a horse that you raised and trained, that needs a shock collar, better look at your training and handling program. You are creating that horse, unless some else did, and he came to you with baggage that you have to the fix any way possible


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## Sugar (Jan 30, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Totally agree with not letting bad habits go un corrected, BUT the horses Cheri had to deal with, came with those habits. Cheri has had to re -trian some pretty bad horses, that poor horsemen created
> So, if you own a horse that you raised and trained, that needs a shock collar, better look at your training and handling program. You are creating that horse, unless some else did, and he came to you with baggage that you have to the fix any way possible


I'm not sure if this is directed at me or not, but you have my whole-hearted agreement.


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

It bothers me that y'all keep calling them "shock collars" they do so much more. The ones we had 20yrs ago were in fact shock collars. Today we have e-collars (electronic training collars) if I wanted to "shock" an animal I would use a prod. 

This is a HUGE sore point for me. I have fought this battle 100x with people who have accused/reported me for shocking/abusing dogs I am training. It may be splitting hairs but we all have things that rattle our cage.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

I completely agree with jimmy. They have evolved to be so much more than shock collars. In my mind they are not even the same any longer.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jimmyp said:


> It bothers me that y'all keep calling them "shock collars" they do so much more. The ones we had 20yrs ago were in fact shock collars. Today we have e-collars (electronic training collars) if I wanted to "shock" an animal I would use a prod.
> 
> This is a HUGE sore point for me. I have fought this battle 100x with people who have accused/reported me for shocking/abusing dogs I am training. It may be splitting hairs but we all have things that rattle our cage.


Well, maybe they are more refined, but e collars allow the delivery of a shock, electronically, so what is the hair spitting?
If the e collar does not deliver a shock, what then is the mode of action?
The vet article also advises not to use dog e collars with horses, as horses are much more sensitive to electrical currents-I don't know, an electrical current delivers a shock, so I don't get your point!
Yes, a cattle prod delivers a much larger shock, but an electrical shock is an electrical shock, regardless .

Directions for the vet using an e collar

Start at the lowest (shock) level--I didn't count horses that were just posturing with their ears back, I only corrected them when they made an aggressive move toward another horse," she explained. On the transmitter, which has six levels of intensity, the required levels ranged from 2-5 to stop the aggression, with a mean of 4. One to four stimulations were used on each horse, but most only required two to change their behavior.

kennedy reinforces that a specific equine collar must be used. "The shocks are at such a low level that most humans can't feel the lower levels. You don't get a violent shock reaction like you would from an electric fence or a dog collar," and thus the stimulation process on the horse is safe.

Lets at least call a spade a spade, no matter how 'sharp or blunt!'

I guess' stimulation', is a good as any Euphemism !


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jimmyp said:


> It bothers me that y'all keep calling them "shock collars" they do so much more. The ones we had 20yrs ago were in fact shock collars. Today we have e-collars (electronic training collars)


Oh OK, what sort of 'e-collar' are we talking then? Does it just emit a 'bad' sound or such? This can indeed work, but may need to be associated with an actual punishment(assuming the noise isn't aversive of itself). For eg. no collar, but my horses immediately stop what they're doing when I say 'Uh-uh!' but that's not because that innately has any meaning, but because it is associated with punishment they are motivated to avoid.


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## IndianaJones (Aug 13, 2014)

Interesting....I use to have a habitual wood chewer. I literally flash sided the entire barn and all beams to stop him. He would stand there and wait me out and then go back to chewing ...and I mean through the posts!! He couldn't be turned out in his last stable because he'd stop as soon as he could and start going at it (wood arena). This might have been a good solution for him. Yes...turn out 24/7 free feed, he had it all but that never changed him. He just loved to beaver thru a good 2x4.


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## SketchyHorse (May 14, 2012)

Smilie said:


> Directions for the vet using an e collar
> 
> Start at the lowest (shock) level--I didn't count horses that were just posturing with their ears back, I only corrected them when they made an aggressive move toward another horse," she explained. On the transmitter, which has six levels of intensity, the required levels ranged from 2-5 to stop the aggression, with a mean of 4. One to four stimulations were used on each horse, but most only required two to change their behavior.
> 
> kennedy reinforces that a specific equine collar must be used. "The shocks are at such a low level that most humans can't feel the lower levels. You don't get a violent shock reaction like you would from an electric fence or a dog collar," and thus the stimulation process on the horse is safe.


I'm going to compare back to dogs quite a bit as that's my area of knowledge having spent years training AKC/UKC hunt competition dogs. So excuse me 

This is the exact same way you approach training a dog to a shock/e-collar. You always start at the lowest level & work up to the "sweet spot" for lack of better wording. What gets you response without GETTING a response (no yelping, twitching etc). Timing is everything with both animals as well. I don't want to ruin the drive out of my dog so I might not necessarily correct for a hover butt, but I will correct for creeping etc. 

And yes, I completely agree that if you're going to use an e-collar on a horse use a horse specific one. Get the correct tool for the job. And be educated about the use, when to use it, & how to use it. E-collars can be great tools to help fix certain behavioral problems but shouldn't be used as a band-aid.

jimmyp - I can easily see how you could incorporate it for ground tying. I kinda parallel it to whistle stopping my dog, who if they then get up receives a correction from my collar as that's the only way I _can _give a correction from a distance. I don't see why it couldn't be used in this same sense for a horse. Your biggest worry I suppose would have to be if they figure out collar on = behave. My BM used it on her mare for stall kicking at feeding time, but she quickly learned that no person around no shock. So it only worked when someone was around.

loosie - I know for dog e-collars these days many come with a tone (loud BEEP), vibrate, & shock option. Hence the move towards e-collar. It also might be a little bit of a PC push as e-collar sounds much nicer than shock... just my personal opinion.

Sorry if I rambled >.>


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