# Starting to ask more of my mare - critique please.



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Id be the last person to remind you of your weight. Mine is keeping me company 24/7. 

Ok, I liked your explanations and think that you are very much on the right track. I can see remarkable differences in the way the horse is moving. Some of those photos are very nice pictures and I can just see the horse stepping forward into your hand. Your leg may turn outward, but your vertical alingment is very good. It's harder to see for us "round" folks, but if you focus on the skeleton of the person, you can see good alignment for sure.

My guess is that it's just going to take time to have the horse able to accept the contact at the trot, since it took time to do it at the walk. It's a bit of a vicious circle in that the horse worries about the contact , hollows out her back, makes it harder for you to sit her stably, thus your contact might not be as smooth and so she hollows out her back.

One thing you can do is work on the upward transition. I can often sit or post a rough horse for the first few strides pretty darn good if I get a good upward transition to begin with. then, things can fall apart but at least I got a good few strides.

So work on getting her to walk really nicely coming to the bit. If she is starting to suck back, don't take that time as your time to ask for trot. Find the time when she is lifting a bit and comeing to the bit, and ask for a trot. Make her as put together as possible, and then literall think of scooping her up a bit and think trot. You might even literally start posting a milisecond before she does. some horses will start to trot as soon as they feel you posting. Allow her to move forward without too much contact, with your focus more on "move into trot NOW> and you want to feel her really step into it. There will be a stride or two where the trot feels awesome! let her have her head for the first few times.

Once she is taking a trot lightly (is in front of your leg), then ask for a bit more contact during the trot. hopefully, the first few awesome trot strides wont go back to sucking back/behind the bit ones.

Of course, every time you ask the horse up into a trot, you ahve to go back down again. I am not sure what to say here as to how to improve them. you will know what you need to do .


THEN, here's another thing you can do; once she is better at moving into trot off a light leg, start her into a trot, then ask for a down transition, but just before she breaks to walk, put your leg on and say trot on! Trot, half halt to almost walk, then leg on forward! and if necessary, open the front door a bit with the reins. Once she is forward , bring in more contact and try to "catch' that forward surge from almost walk to trot.


----------



## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

Thank you so much for taking the time to comment Caroline! I was kind of hoping to see you pop in :wink:

Your description of moving up into the trot is what I have been doing. I've ensured she is walking out, and really giving me what I'm after and then pushing her forward into the trot. However, due to the other advice I was given, I've been holding a bit with my hands in hopes she'll follow what she had in the walk oops.  I find though with a good start, the trot is more balanced and then I can niggle and she starts to offer *a little*. Yesterday's ride at first the trot was rather fast in the warm up but after really setting her up, it felt like we had much more rhythm and she slowly began to lower her head and I was able to ask her to use herself more... it was a moment where I was very pleased!!

Our downwards transition from the trot and walk needs more improvement, so I'll definitely be using that technique to see if I can strengthen that and also work on the trot, what a handy idea! I remember doing something similar with another mare I used to own, but with trot to canter. 

Thank you also for mentioning I'm being more correctly aligned. You have followed our progress, so know that I've REALLY been trying to be the best I can be for my little mare. I can only hope all this riding will make things good for Seoul (I'm hopping up on her tomorrow after Honey too) but for now, Honey is really offering so much more, and I'm so thrilled that I'm not letting her down like I originally thought I was!


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

by the way, looks like you have lost weight.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

this is a nice shot. Horse is carring it's own head, stepping forward and looks [email protected]!


----------



## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

Hmm I need to stop being so self critical - I thought that wasn't a nice shot hahah, namely because a fellow friend mentioned she was not carrying herself correctly and I needed to stop yanking her into a frame... however, my contact is not short enough to do such a thing currently! 

And yes I have lost weight. I'm in that ridiculous stage of being too small for my current pants, but too big for a size smaller. Rather driving me bonkers!!


----------



## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

I'm quite nervous to post this haha... but as promised here's the video. It's only of work on one rein. I had to learn a lesson the hard way yesterday... my jodphurs disappeared so I hastily put on a pair of older jeans - I forgot they are like a size bigger around the waist so when I started trotting, I soon learnt all about it - very annoying!! :lol:

I know some of what needs to be fixed - my arms/elbow bend was dreadful and I thought I was looking up more than I clearly was  Although it's not the best work on my behalf, this was the part of our ride where Honey really "clicked". And even though I wish to look much better than this, I learnt a lot from watching this clip and the rest of the video. So I'm kind of thankful for this taping haha!


----------



## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Great pics, & video. One thing I would like to see you do though is raise your hands up a bit & close together. Your horse & you make a great pair, lovely to watch.


----------



## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

Thanks *waresbear*! I have always had an issue with my hands... I keep lifting them but then I drop them and I'm forever having to remind myself - just need to make it more consistent. Thank you so much again


----------



## mnl764 (Apr 8, 2012)

Well, you guys look good! My answer to everything regarding collection is to lunge/trot them over poles....lol. I am afraid I am not too much help here....and btw, your size and your horse size is absolutely within the range of what she is capable of....so if anyone mentioned it in the past I would disregard them


----------



## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

I can't really add more than has been said, but would like to mention anyway that I love your seat!


----------



## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

*mnl764;* Thank you. I need to get some poles back into her routine... we started "jumping"... just a little as I'm petrified of jumping but she loves it so I do it for her... I must admit she has made me relax a little... this is my second attempt at ever jumping her... its been years since I've owned a horse I could jump as I was busy backing and starting them...









The reason I've had it a lot is that Honey does have a shoulder weakness, so I get the whole "oh you're fat, you're making her sore cos you thump around on her" kind of attitude. I don't have the best of balance, I'm the first to admit it... sometimes she throws in weird strides in her trot and I have to rearrange myself - we all have I'm sure experienced this - and so I am conscious about it. On the forum I've received less than nice comments in the past too, it drove me to improve myself.. rambling now. Basically, thank you for saying I'm not too big for my horse. I know I'm not, but its never easy hearing it all the same!

*soenjer55;* really? I'm a little gobsmacked. Thank you! My saddle is the reason my seat has improved, it really helps me strengthen my core and balance. I used to be rather hopeless haha!!


----------



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Honey (no pun intended) you are doing fabulously and I too am jealous of your seat.. it's incredible! I have a problem with relaxing, especially since I had a lot of instructors that pushed me way too fast. I love how you have that entire field to yourselves and can spend every moment together in absolute peace.

I'm proud of you Missy! Couldn't be happier


----------



## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

the pictures show a lot of what is going on, most of which has already been covered, but watching the video really helps show what is going on. i have to agree with what others have said, i like your seat. you are a quiet rider which i'm sure your horse appreciates and this will help you to help HER come into the contact as she learns that it is a safe and comfortable place to be. 

it sounds like you are like me in some respects, a bit leery of "hurting" your horse even though in reality we're almost too light. :wink: i think you are doing a lovely job especially with your knee/leg issues. 

thank you for posting and letting us see the progress you've been making. it's nice to see that people can improve as it makes me feel that i too can improve.


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

First of all, in the video, are you trying to gait?? If that's actually her walk you need to not let her walk like that. She is completely strung out and so lateral it almost passes as a fourth gait. Halt her and then get her to take one step with each leg at a time and don't go any faster than that until she respects your seat enough to slow down and remain in balance.

In the pictures, you need to put your right hand down. Both hands should be touching the withers and you need to focus on pushing your shoulders and arms down. From there, shorten your reins until you have contact. How you are riding now is with the correct push from behind, but nothing containing it up front. Collection is like a tube of toothpaste. You want to squish all the toothpaste into the front of the tube so it's easy to use, but if you leave the cap off you squish out all the toothpaste. Right now there is toothpaste all over your bathroom, you need to get that cap on. Once you have short enough reins that there is a contact while your hands and shoulders are pressing down, think about flexing her by simply moving the wrist and then suppling on both reins with just the fingers. This combined with the push from behind will encourage her to stretch. When she does stretch into the contact, it is correct to let the hands come an inch forward for a moment, but you must maintain the contact and continue to have active fingers that it does not turn into pulling.

Good luck!!


----------



## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

*Sky;* Thank you, your kind words are lovely. Actually its not much of a field haha, its one of my paddocks - hasn't been able to be eaten down because Honey's on such a strict diet. All my riding areas have been like this, which is a pain, haha! I'm quite afraid of big open spaces since the accident, but pushed myself 10 days ago to walk and trot out in the main field - it was the biggest success to date I think  Thanks again!!

*crimsonsky;* Thank you. Yes I believe I am too light with Honey. I think I do hold back in some aspects as I don't fear arguments with her anymore, but I don't exactly like arguing with her all the time. I know I could make more of a fuss over the contact, but I prefer to be asking her to accept it at a rate that both of us can be happy with. I'm happy to post my progress, I really didn't expect this response actually... been thinking of myself in a much lesser position than that I've read above!

*anebel;* No, we are not attempting to gait. Honey does anticipate the trot once we get going and since starting contact work she has been trying to jog off and it unsettles her walk. I guess I should look at videos in the past of her walk and the one in that before I go further in comment. I will make sure to focus on balancing and strengthening her walk more 

I'm a little confused regarding my hands however. I've only been getting told to lift my hands up and forward for some time now, and it's certainly been a long task of reminding myself to do so. I don't see how lowering my hands is going to help? I see my right hand is in fact higher, and will work to fix that, but I'm still not understanding how lowering my hand will help any but break my line from elbow to bit in which I've been attempting to fix. Thank you for the analogy regarding the toothpaste. I think I will try this more in the future sessions - my rein length has been at the length it is because she hollows out on a firmer contact and is still getting used to contact also - in my first post I mentioned she was abused and has a sour take on a firm contact on her mouth. I don't avoid it, I hope you understand, I do and will take up contact and we do sort out our differences, but I've noticed after working with a shorter rein things fall into place a little more when I relax the rein. She's far more compliant and offers more. So at the moment we're in a position of give and take. I'm not comfortable to ask her into collection/connection completely - she's only had about five sessions now in total regarding what I'm asking of her, so I think she's progressing well! Thank you though for your advice I will soak it up and apply it when I feel it suits us


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

When you have stable, thoughtful, educated hands you can put them wherever your heart desires and yes, when the horse puts it's head up you can follow that and continue to create a straight line from elbow to bit. However, until that point, and I'm not even there yet, your hands need to be where they are correct, regardless of the horse's headset. Were her neck and head in the correct position, your hands need to be down by the withers in order to maintain the elbow to bit line. By placing the hands already in this correct position, it not only encourages her to complete the line, but it also helps you learn where to place your body to be stable. By driving the hands, elbows and shoulders all down you are engaging through the core.
People get very concerned with superficial things like the line from elbow to bit, when in truth it is first the alignment within the rider's body which matters and which muscles she is engaging and then, how the horse responds to those aids. I can find a lot of pictures of "pretty" riders with flawless equitation who could not sit a buck, teach a half pass or ride a green horse. Work on the functionality of your equitation and the correctness of it first and then work on being pretty.

As far as for the contact thing. Every horse in the world regardless of if they have been abused or not, if they have not been taught what the contact means, they will throw their head up. In my opinion, you will be creating a bit of a monster is you are giving every time she throws her head up as she is learning "I throw my head up, my rider gives, this is correct". This is where having someone on the ground that is educated in teaching horses would be useful to help you know when to hold, when to push and when to give. Yes she will have other issues from her past, but don't treat her with a feather touch just because of that. She is still a horse and will learn by action reaction and by providing excuses for her you are simply making your job, and her retraining, harder. It is also important to shorten the reins and keep the hands soft (as described in my previous post).

Good luck!


----------



## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

*Anebel;* thanks for taking the time to return and comment on my thoughts. I'd just like to say in regard to the opinion I've probably given you about the contact thing is, I do make an effort and I do not allow her to get away with the contact issue. I simply meant, I have found after working on contact work, even taking up a slight amount of rein she starts adjusting her head... and seems more compliant to work at that level than the one we are working on at present. My apologies if I worded it as if I back off and allow her to think "okay I throw my head up, she'll give it back" ... certainly not the case and it's certainly not her head she has been throwing up in arguments :lol: I do work on a shorter rein though I have been in the past two sessions riding on a longer rein to see the difference. Will definitely take some photos/video (maybe) of tomorrow's attempts and see if we achieve anything more solid.

I wasn't aware it was a superficial thing, as it was advice I received on here on a previous critique... thanks for the clarification. I was under the impression that if I was lifting my hands up I would be in proper alignment with my actual body and making my elbow elastic (if its straight it's not effective) and not bracing so much etc. I'm riding tomorrow so I'll see how things go - my hands feel more at home down by the wither as like I said, it's been a work in progress to lift them. Will give it a go all the same.


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

To create more bend and suppleness in the elbow, it is not the hand that rises but the upper arm, shoulder and elbow which lowers.


----------



## cheshirecat (Feb 24, 2012)

super random but your horse is adorable =D


----------



## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

Anebel; thank you again!!
Cheshire; thank you. Shes my adorable Honey puff haha.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

Just come back from another great ride. I tried to work on some of the suggestions and whilst I know it was very much trial and error, I was very pleased with how much softer Honey felt but at the same time, I could feel her a lot more through my hands. My friend/instructor often says "you should feel like you're walking an active dog, there should be a pulling sensation from your horse like it wants to go faster, but as the handler and rider, you are to maintain that excitement"... it was actually probably the second time I've ever felt that with her  

The trot work felt more balanced - no rushing off, tempo was consistent and I felt like it was very effortless to keep up with her. My balance wasn't as bad either. I'm not sure what the magic secret of today was, but things started to click. She was pretty fun today, and even gave me a proper canter - not for very long but it was pretty decent for a horse learning how to canter! I didn't want to focus too much on schooling, but when she started offering I uh, kind of took the opportunity :wink:

I know the rein length still needs to be addressed, I did shorten them haha. But here's some updated photos - apologies on quality, my friend's camera really needs to be updated haha!


















*Sky*, still want my field?! Darn grass, I think I'll move into another paddock to ride in for awhile :-x









Only trotting pic I'm afraid.


----------



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Yes I still want it, and much nicer in some of those pictures  

I think the magic click was teaching your friend.. when you teach something you're working on.. it sticks and YOU become better at it.


----------



## jody111 (May 14, 2008)

I have to agree with Annabel re the contact thing - I think he needs something to go into else you are just letting all the energy go - theres def improvement on the latest lot of photos too. that was my first though in the earlier pics... I had an instructor tell me once to think of the horse as a hose with water coming in from behind you hands are the taps - you want the hose to swell up and becoming in from behind and you taps realease only the energy you want to release...

Sounds like hes starting to look for the contact which is promising  keep it up


Im teaching another adult rider to ride and she always has the same thing with rein length and always thinks they are shorter than what they are! You are lucky you do have a nice soft bal seat which is gonna help...

good to see things progressing 

And just on that note - I think you and you horses are a great fit size wise and dont let anyone tell you otherwise


----------



## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

Sorry for the late replies, never noticed the notifications for a couple of threads!

*@Sky; *Thank you, I think so too. Friend had her first ride on Seoul the other day and didn't even have any issues even though she's a fidget bum when mounting - she's quieter than Honey so I think putting her on a more forward moving horse like Honey will strengthen her to ride Seoul with ease. Super proud! Will be riding both horses tomorrow for me as I'm on crutches at present (my injury flared up two days ago when I had the most awful virus come on full force) so I'm definitely interested in seeing how she goes with Honey as I normally ride first.

*@jody;* Thank you for replying here. I noticed the difference in energy and how to use it in my last ride the other day. Granted there was a storm brewing above us and I still rode - she's pretty level headed in windy conditions - though she had a couple of moments where the wind got to her and she scooted forward but settled down again... all the same, I practiced my contact and she started to offer again. It was really rather exciting to be riding her in that kind of weather, with her attention (after her spooks) completely on me, both of us breathing calmly and walking around with some great work. The trot was a little fast due to the weather, but she wasn't arguing over the contact being shorter in it - which is progress! The ride previous we had a huge argument that I won in the end and she gave me some beautiful work despite being tired all over contact again. She's getting better, but it will take us time, and I'm okay with that! Thanks again.


Out of curiosity, this is from the ride where we argued and I had a firmer contact... I've lost my elbow bend (and was trying to tell myself to lower my arms and bring them back to my sides a little but it doesn't show on film - of course!!) but I'm not sure whether to call this improvement or not. It felt much better, but I feel like I've reverted back to how I used to ride with my arms looking not relaxed, they weren't as nice as I wanted I believe. And Honey was in a mood at that time, hence the ears/grumpy face but she was starting to listen! I need to lift my hands a little? I can't seem to figure the exact place where I've gone wrong without second guessing myself >_<


----------



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

You lost your elbows, threw your hands away and so the only way you kept her together was to recapture the leg with your hands again... but you're either leaning on the reins or pulling them.. so she went hollow and got heavy in your hands. Your hand level is fine, you just have no bend in your elbow.. no give. So naturally she fought against it because she was trying to find some kind of relief.. that usually comes from your elbows. Makes sense?


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Hi Michelle,

The last photo is not your best. Sorry to pop the bubble. you look like you are hllowoing out your lower back, rolled too much onto the pubic bone and riding more off the mouth of the horse, less on your seat. Don't sacrifice the good seat and alignment that you HAVE just to have a shorter contact on the rein. The hrose , too, looks braced against the contact. There is less of a feeling of the energy coming up and through the back. 

you can shorten your reins both by bringing your elbow back , and widening your hands (something I would do only temporarily since over the course of the ride you want your hands closer together. )

This is the best photo of you aligneed well and horse accepting contact nicely. (except your turne head)


----------



## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

Awesome thanks for that... I'm glad you saw what my friend did... and I wanted to agree with her but like I said above, I was second guessing my ability in what I saw. 

I believe I returned to how I used to ride, and will be taking corrective measures to fix this/aka incorporate the advice you've given me Caroline, and also what is in here.

Thank you... I enjoy posting photos - the bad and good to learn from hence why I shared that one as it was during our argument and I felt it was my doing


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Well, it's been the same issue for me. I end up working way too much with Zulu's face and while doing this, I tense up my body, he gets bracey, which makes me ride his face even more. I know exactly how easy it is to get into that position. zulu's gait is hard to ride, and I have to have a shorter stirrup, and I really feel that I don't have the seat needed to ride off his hind and not his face. until I can ride hime as smoothly without holding the reins, as with , then I won't have the stability to truly affect him without resorting to face riding.


----------

