# Breeding dilutes from bay



## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

I have a bay mare who I would like to breed a foal from who isnt a basic colour (eg bay, chestnut, etc). I know you can get buckskin, and various other not-so-uncommon colours but I was wondering if there is any way to breed these colours from a bay:

1. palomino
2. perlino
3. smoky cream
4. champagne
5. blue roan
6. peach dun

I reckon I'd need a chestnut rather than a bay for these but still, is it possible to get any of those from a bay mare and a dilute or non-basic stallion? Hope that made sense. According to colour calculator I can breed a pally from a cremello stallion but I'm not so sure...


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

It depends on what the mare's black/red and agouti status is and what stud she would breed to.


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

Well I don't know the specifics of genes, but she is by a bay sire out of a chestnut dam. her damsire and grand-dam through her mum are both chestnut, and her sire's parents are bay stallion and chestnut mare


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Well you know the black/red (she is Ee, meaning has one black gene and one red). The agouti, what makes her bay, you know that she has at least one as agouti does not show on red (she is A?).

Like i said though, it also depends on what the stud's genetics are to also tell you what the pair might produce.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I can tell you for sure that you definitely can't get a perlino out of her. The rest are theoretically possible depending on the stallion she crossed to, and her own genetics.


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

The perlino was the one I thought wasn't very possible. I love perlinos, haha. What about peach duns? How do you think I'd get one? A peach dun stallion?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

It depends what you mean by peach dun. I don't know the duns by their nicknames except grullo. I only know them by their base colour.


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

I chose this picture so you can see the dorsal stripe on it, confirming its not just a pale chestnut. Peach Duns (Red dun) is essentially a very pale peachy colour with a mane and tail that can be the same colour as their coat or darker. They look like a clipped chestnut. I think chestnut would be the base colour for a peach dun? It wouldn't let me upload the file :evil: so here is a linkeh

http://www.equine-world.org/sms/nikki/horses/images/absolutecertainte.jpg

Shame you can't see his dorsal, though, so I am hoping he is an actual peach dun and not a chestnut


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

If you want a peach dun, you're better off buying one. There is no guarantee to the shade of color when breeding.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Oh ok. I figured it would be a red dun. You are in Australia right MK?


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

You also couldn't get a smoky cream out of her. 

And if you wanted a specific colour within those, you'd have to find a stallion that is, say for blue roan, at least homozygous roan, if not also homozygous black. Even then, you'd have a 50% chance of a bay roan instead of blue roan. 

You're better off buying a foal of your colour choice than prowling the interwebz trying to find a genetically correct stud for colour because the majority of the time you'll be sacrificing quality. Plus, you won't have to wait a year for the little one, only to be disappointed in its colour if it's wrong.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Poseidon, while normally I would agree with you entirely, the horse market is completely different in Australia when compared to the Americas. Colours that you would consider common place over there are relatively rare here, due to the difference in riding styles. English is huge here, while Western is really only a select few. As a result, 'english' style breeds such as TBs and Warmbloods are the most common horses, and the stock breeds such as QHs and Paints, while not rare, are also not common either. 

Add into that the fact that we don't have nearly as many issues with too many horses. So not only are these colours relatively hard to find, they are very rarely cheap. Fortunately, they are also very rarely badly conformed too.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Ooooooh. I see. Well, darn it, Australia! Get some colour into your horses!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I would kill for some colour lol. My dream horse would probably be a buckskin Anglo Arab. That would be so frickin' awesome. One day, when I win lotto probably, I will have to import some coloured TBs from over in the US. Bliss!


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

And one day I will import one of your Aussie stock horses. Mmmm. Love.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Maybe we should sort something out lol


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I'd have to find a TB first. Haha. My friend has two that she got last fall from racing people that went out of business. I have no idea where they lived though. I think in-state. All we really have are western-y stock horses. I'd have to kidnap someone's horse from somewhere else in the country. Haha. I'm on it.


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

Chiilaa, I am in Australia. Also, if you want a buckskin Anglo, go find yourself a bay Arab mare and breed her to Glaciel Gold, a true genetic cremello TB stallion. 

Also, I would not sacrifice quality for colour. I want her foals to be an asset to breeding, not some backyard-bred out-of-propotian weirdo roan/dun/smoky colour. I'd rather a good conformed quality bay than a strange looking dun. Nonetheless, I am DETERMINED to get my coloured foal haha. If I can find the right stallion who isn't bad quality. I was thinking of this one:
HEZA BLUE TOMCAT
Tashanor Park At Stud : Sampson

Oh, and for Chiilaa's benefit, here is Glacial Gold. He could be better conformed, though he's only a baby so he may fill out.
GLACIAL GOLD
Glacial Gold


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

MK with the first one you only have a 50% chance of getting roan and a 50% chance of getting tobiano. It isn't possible for him to be homozygous tobiano _and_ roan. They are both KIT genes...


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

On Glacial Gold... I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole. Not with all the extensive photoshoping that has been done around his head and neck on his pictures.


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

Yes I am aware of that. He is homozygous tobiano. I am apparently "guaranteed" a pinto foal, and according to the colour calculator, I have a chance of getting

25% Blue Roan
25% Black Tobiano
25% Bay Tobiano
25% Bay Roan 

That was calculated with both parents' respective genes


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

You're not though. Roan is not a pinto pattern. Tobiano is. You only have a 50/50 chance of getting the tobiano. 


It really, really irritates me they are advertising him as a homozygous color producer. He is not.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

And BTW, you still have a chance at a chestnut foal out of that since you mare is Ee and the stud is Ee. What you got out of the CC is incorrect. It should be more like this -

28.13% Bay tobiano
28.13% Bay roan
12.50% Chestnut tobiano
12.50% chestnut roan
9.38% Blue tobiano
9.38% Black tobiano


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

What do you mean, roan is not a pinto pattern? As in its not a pattern like tobiano or overo is, or its not a colour that can be tobiano or overo?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Roan is not a pinto pattern.

Pinto patters are - 
Frame overo.
Splash 
Dominant white
Tobiano 
Sabino


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

Well....der. Not to be rude, but its a colour not a pattern. I thought that would be a known fact. But now I'm confused? What made you point that out?


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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

MadamKing said:


> Yes I am aware of that. He is homozygous tobiano. I am apparently "guaranteed" a pinto foal, and according to the colour calculator, I have a chance of getting
> 
> 25% Blue Roan
> 25% Black Tobiano
> ...


This post is likely why NdAppy made the clarification

Super Nova


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

That is exactly why I did the color calculator thing SN. thank you very much.


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

Ohhhh ok I meant those colours are the colours I can get, not the patterns I could get.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

lol I think we are all just confusing each other.


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

Just a little bit haha :lol:


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

What part was confusing you? I want to make sure we get you understanding. lol


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

Oh just about roan not being a pattern. I understand now, because someone pointed out what made you say it, but I was wondering why you were telling me it wasn't a pattern haha


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

lol oh i was actually saying it because the stud owner was/are claiming that you get a colored foal. While technically that is true, most people would think that colored is the tobiano pattern. More so since roan is not a pinto pattern.


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

So they are actually guranteeing a roan foal? Or can you not guarantee either roan or pinto foals?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

They are guaranteeing that it will have some sort of white pattern. They can't say if it will be roan or tobiano, but they are guaranteeing that you will get one of the two.


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

Haha thats silly if they can't actually guarantee either


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

lol

All they are guaranteeing is that you will get one of the two. So it's a toss up which one you will get.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

They couldn't guarantee colour even if he was **** for tobiano. Yes, the horse would get a tobi gene, and yes, tobi is dominant. But.... tobi can minimally express, from high white on the legs through to completely solid horses with no white at all. I have seen pics of a mare that has tested homozygous for tobi and has no white on her at all.


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