# strange horse behaviour issues// PLEASE READ!



## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

So I have this OTTB, who i’ve owned for around 7 years now (he’s 14) who has had on and off issues when it came to jumping or any type of pole work i’ve tried doing. This is on and off though, sometimes he behaves and sometimes he loses his mind over me asking him to trot a pole on the ground, he tries to bolt over it, shakes his head and goes sideways at it. He’s been checked for teeth/saddle/chiro and vet issues so I can’t figure out what else could be wrong with him. I’ll also mention he is very calm during flat and extremely well mannered on the ground. I’ve owned him for quite a while and can’t figure out quite what the issue is, I assumed he was just excited about something different but it’s gotten to a point where he refuses to even go forward and will back up if I ask him to keep trotting over a pole without letting him bolt off before or after and he is also drenched in sweat after riding from being so frustrated. Any advice would help and I appreciate it!


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## Cloud Walker (Jan 8, 2021)

Was his vision checked?


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## Aprilswissmiss (May 12, 2019)

Does he do the same thing if you trot him over poles in-hand?


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## AJ Yammie (Dec 20, 2020)

Can you lunge him over poles? If you haven’t tried that might help


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

Cloud Walker said:


> Was his vision checked?


He had a full body check up for everything and came back totally normal


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

AJ Yammie said:


> Can you lunge him over poles? If you haven’t tried that might help


I’ve free jumped him and lunged him over poles and he has no issues it’s only under saddle


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

Aprilswissmiss said:


> Does he do the same thing if you trot him over poles in-hand?


No he acts completely calm in hand and on lunge line over jumps and poles it’s only under saddle where he has issues


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## Cloud Walker (Jan 8, 2021)

If it's only under-saddle, then chances are that it may be a back problem or something that you are doing. 

Vets, chiros, saddle fitters, can and do miss things or make mistakes...

How long have you been jumping? Any videos of you jumping him?


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## AJ Yammie (Dec 20, 2020)

Have you tried getting someone else to jump him, maybe try a different saddle


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

Cloud Walker said:


> If it's only under-saddle, then chances are that it may be a back problem or something that you are doing.
> 
> Vets, chiros, saddle fitters, can and do miss things or make mistakes...
> 
> How long have you been jumping? Any videos of you jumping him?


We haven’t jumped very often in the last year, maybe once a month or so and all low. He was restarted late and only started jumping when I got him at age 7 and had some teeth issues that were resolved. I have some videos of us jumping with no issues and I also should mention he does not like anyone else riding him unless they are very quiet and gentle so Ive been the only one who’s ridden him since I’ve owned him along with one occasion when my trainer did and only walked and he freaked out. I have a video of him freaking out with my trainer just sitting on him as well if you’d like to see that. Sorry if that was long I’m just trying to include as many details as possible!


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

AJ Yammie said:


> Have you tried getting someone else to jump him, maybe try a different saddle


He doesn’t like anyone else riding him unless they are very quiet and will shake his head and go sideways on flat for everyone else. He acts up in my dressage saddle or my jump saddle even though they both fit him well


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I agree with AJ, see if another rider or different saddle, or bareback will cause same reaction.

Is this horse claustrophobic? ok in trailer, ok through gates? ok to step down from one position to a lower one ok over poles at walk How about at canter?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

ame6321 said:


> We haven’t jumped very often in the last year, maybe once a month or so and all low. He was restarted late and only started jumping when I got him at age 7 and had some teeth issues that were resolved. I have some videos of us jumping with no issues and I also should mention he does not like anyone else riding him unless they are very quiet and gentle so Ive been the only one who’s ridden him since I’ve owned him along with one occasion when my trainer did and only walked and he freaked out. I have a video of him freaking out with my trainer just sitting on him as well if you’d like to see that. Sorry if that was long I’m just trying to include as many details as possible!



i would like to see that video, if your trainer will not mind (keep her name anonymous)


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## Cloud Walker (Jan 8, 2021)

ame6321 said:


> We haven’t jumped very often in the last year, maybe once a month or so and all low. He was restarted late and only started jumping when I got him at age 7 and had some teeth issues that were resolved. I have some videos of us jumping with no issues and I also should mention he does not like anyone else riding him unless they are very quiet and gentle so Ive been the only one who’s ridden him since I’ve owned him along with one occasion when my trainer did and only walked and he freaked out. I have a video of him freaking out with my trainer just sitting on him as well if you’d like to see that. Sorry if that was long I’m just trying to include as many details as possible!


Yeah
I'd actually like to see that video. Most horses don't blow up for no reason..


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

Cloud Walker said:


> Yeah
> I'd actually like to see that video. Most horses don't blow up for no reason..






I inserted the clip of my trainer riding him, it’s fairly short because right after he did this she got off him and I got back on i’m also inserting a clip of me riding right before literally 10 minutes earlier and he was very good




it’s low quality for some reason
I wish i had more videos of his episodes to show but I don’t record very often and when I do he behaves (Id also like to mention that my trainer said she had no pressure on the reins and wasn’t asking him to do anything but walk)


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

tinyliny said:


> I agree with AJ, see if another rider or different saddle, or bareback will cause same reaction.
> 
> Is this horse claustrophobic? ok in trailer, ok through gates? ok to step down from one position to a lower one ok over poles at walk How about at canter?


I posted the videos in my reply to cloud walker, he is not claustrophobic and is good to trailer, fine with gates and going through trees, he’s a very independent horse. He will always walk over poles quietly but trot and canter will bolt as soon as he sees it, he just locks on tries to go as fast as possible. He also has meltdowns in wide open fields SOMETIMES depends on if he’s fresh or not and will go sideways throwing his head wanting to gallop


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## AJ Yammie (Dec 20, 2020)

Hmmm. Interesting do you lunge him before you ride?


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

AJ Yammie said:


> Hmmm. Interesting do you lunge him before you ride?


No he’s super quiet and mostly lazy on the lunge line so I don’t feel like it makes a difference


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## AJ Yammie (Dec 20, 2020)

Do you warm up?


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## Cloud Walker (Jan 8, 2021)

No offense, but that was not as bad of a "freak out" as I was expecting...

It's kind of hard to see and I don't have that good of an eye anyway, but:

In the first clip, if you look real close, his mouth was gaping the entire time. Something is wrong. Either there is a mouth problem, the bit is too "strong" (for his needs), the rider is too "strong" (for his needs), he does not know to give or what you want, etc.

What is his training level?

What is she doing?

It kind of looks like she is trying to have him on the bit or something. He may not know how to be soft in the face while being driven forward. To him, that is like say STOP with the reins but GOOOO with the legs and seat... Very confusing and frustrating for the horse and sometimes even painful. It also kind of looks like there is no "give" to her hands, just trying to hold him in a certain position.

Just my (inexperienced) opinion.

Waiting to see what others say.


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

AJ Yammie said:


> Do you warm up?


we walk for around 10 minutes, trot with breaks for around 20 or 30 doing serpentines and bending circles switching directions then canter with leg yields, transitions etc with no issues. We do a lot of flat work and he will have no issues unless there’s a pole/poles or a jump up and most of the time he will go over that the first couple times calmly and then just decide he wants to run through it and even if I try to switch back to flat after he gets upset he won’t get over it no matter how many circles or transitions I do he just jogs or flips out and stays that way until I get off. I’ve tried lunging him after when he’s acting up and he will just run on the lunge line like he’s upset and won’t stop! Like I could be there for ever and he would just keep running until I give him my stop signal. He won’t go back to being calm


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

ame6321 said:


> He doesn’t like anyone else riding him unless they are very quiet and will shake his head and go sideways on flat for everyone else. He acts up in my dressage saddle or my jump saddle even though they both fit him well


If he is fine going over jumps in hand, it's obviously something about being ridden. By the sound of it, he's very likely in pain. How did the vet supposedly rule out body, hoof or mouth pain? Unfortunately it's common for them to miss, discount or mistake 'normal' for 'ok', and generally speaking, vets aren't specialised on body issues, so I'd be getting a second opinion.

If your horse is fine in some saddles but not in others, the others obvious ARE uncomfortable & don't fit him well somehow. Don't use those ones on him. Tho you might want to post some pics of him saddled with them, for other opinions here. If so, take pics of the saddle on the horse without any pads.

If he 'doesn't like' others riding him, could be about fear from lack of experience, but as you describe head shaking & going sideways, that sounds like frustration & not being able to find a release - I sus whoever is riding him is asking far too much, for the stage he's at, and not releasing pressure when he does as asked. Don't put unskilled, inconsiderate riders on him.


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## AJ Yammie (Dec 20, 2020)

My


Cloud Walker said:


> No offense, but that was not as bad of a "freak out" as I was expecting...
> 
> It's kind of hard to see and I don't have that good of an eye anyway, but:
> 
> ...


My new mare Daisy does that when I try get her on the bit. She hasn’t been trained it before so she didn’t know how to respond to the pressure


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## AJ Yammie (Dec 20, 2020)

Maybe try with some different bits, on a loose rein, bareback if your confident, in a pasture too. Is the horse always in an arena with other horses?


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

Cloud Walker said:


> No offense, but that was not as bad of a "freak out" as I was expecting...
> 
> It's kind of hard to see and I don't have that good of an eye anyway, but:
> 
> ...


Yeah it’s not a bad freak out in that clip at all, it’s the only video I have close enough to his meltdowns on my phone. I can try to record next time but I probably won’t be setting up anything for a while to give his mind a break and just doing flat. He opens his mouth a lot of the time to chew on his bit, it’s a fairly soft bit I was using during that time. He has decent dressage training and will go on the bit with me, I agree he doesn’t know what she’s asking but after that happened she said she wasn’t doing anything and didn’t even have leg or any pressure on the reins. I can show videos of us doing dressage with him collected if you’d be interested seeing him being able to take contact no problem, Ill add that we have competed up to 3’ jumpers successfully almost always winning and schooled up to 3’9 when he was enjoying it (maybe a year ago?) It’s been a while since we’ve jumped that high though


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

ame6321 said:


> I inserted the clip of my trainer riding him, it’s fairly short because right after he did this she got off him and I got back on i’m also inserting a clip of me riding right before literally 10 minutes earlier and he was very good


Just watched those clips & it's very obvious the instructor is doing precisely what I guessed was happening - she is trying to force him to keep his head in, nose overbent, and not giving him any release for doing 'Right' - he starts by actually putting his nose in(false 'collection') for a second, but she doesn't reinforce this, doesn't let up, so he starts to try something else & fight the unremitting pressure, you can see he has his mouth open & is clearly confused by her unrelenting hands. I personally wouldn't let a person who rode like that on one of my horses.

In the second clip, you're not trying to force his nose down, you're not being 'heavy handed', so he's fine. As said previously, it does sound likely a pain/saddle issue to me, but perhaps he was also 'trained' to jump initially with someone such as that instructor, who didn't know how to _teach_ him, only attempt to force him. Perhaps, assuming you are able to rule out/fix any pain/saddle fit issues, as he lunges over jumps OK, you could 'restart' him jumping on lead, with someone just being a 'passenger' on his back, try to disassociate the jumping from the angst about being forced & hung off.


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

AJ Yammie said:


> Maybe try with some different bits, on a loose rein, bareback if your confident, in a pasture too. Is the horse always in an arena with other horses?


90% of the time I ride alone, i’ve tried bitless (he doesn’t like facial pressure and throws his head) Ive tried probably over 20 different bits and Ill find one he goes well in then he has a random meltdown and i’m stumped again, Ive tried loose rein and he just bolts anyways, i’ve tried talking to him and going slow and babying him (doesn’t work he ignores me and bolts anyways) i’ve tried being forceful and making him stop into the wall when he bolts (he gets very upset over that and will start backing up when I ask him to walk forward) and I have jumped him bareback and in a halter and he will either run through or run after the jump so I don’t really like that in case I happen to fall off


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## Cloud Walker (Jan 8, 2021)

ame6321 said:


> He opens his mouth a lot of the time to chew on his bit, it’s a fairly soft bit I was using during that time. He has decent dressage training and will go on the bit with me, I agree he doesn’t know what she’s asking but after that happened she said she wasn’t doing anything and didn’t even have leg or any pressure on the reins. I can show videos of us doing dressage with him collected if you’d be interested seeing him being able to take contact no problem, Ill add that we have competed up to 3’ jumpers successfully almost always winning and schooled up to 3’9 when he was enjoying it (maybe a year ago?) It’s been a while since we’ve jumped that high though


You can't focus on what was; you must focus on what is; you must treat the horse you have in front of you right now.

Why does he chew on the bit? Is it a habit? Nervousness? Uncomfortable-ness?

What kind of bit is it exactly? People should not decide what the "best" bit is; the horse decides. It's in his mouth! "Soft" is a little arbitrary. Soft hands with good release is the softest "bit" (and makes soft horses). For example: a Kiberwickle or Waterford used correctly (including for the correct horse) and as needed is "softer" than a smooth french-link used incorrectly (the rider's hanging or yanking or whatever).

I would actually like to see the dressage video.

What do you mean by "on the bit?" On the bit means different things to different people.

If the reins are taught, doesn't that mean there is _some _pressure? That's not a rhetorical question. To me, it looked like there was pressure on the reins from the video.


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

loosie said:


> Just watched those clips & it's very obvious the instructor is doing precisely what I guessed was happening - she is trying to force him to keep his head in, nose overbent, and not giving him any release for doing 'Right' - he starts by actually putting his nose in(false 'collection') for a second, but she doesn't reinforce this, doesn't let up, so he starts to try something else & fight the unremitting pressure, you can see he has his mouth open & is clearly confused by her unrelenting hands. I personally wouldn't let a person who rode like that on one of my horses.
> 
> In the second clip, you're not trying to force his nose down, you're not being 'heavy handed', so he's fine. As said previously, it does sound likely a pain/saddle issue to me, but perhaps he was also 'trained' to jump initially with someone such as that instructor, who didn't know how to _teach_ him, only attempt to force him. Perhaps, assuming you are able to rule out/fix any pain/saddle fit issues, as he lunges over jumps OK, you could 'restart' him jumping on lead, with someone just being a 'passenger' on his back, try to disassociate the jumping from the angst about being forced & hung off.


He was only lightly restarted when I bought him and I started him over jumps, I’ve been the only one who has jumped him and we have only had issues occasionally ONLY when jumps or poles are involved. I try to ride him fairly light in the hand which he likes and I never pull on his face or yank on him and yet he will do that mouth head jiggle thing with me as well when he’s upset. (bit or bitless) The lunging over jumps with a rider on sounds like a good idea actually! I will definitely try that and see how he does. I think a big problem is i’ve been the only one who’s ridden him in so long when someone new gets on him he doesn’t like the way they ride and will act out, i’ve been trying to convince some quiet people I trust to just walk around on him and get him used to other people but they refuse because they’ve seen his attitude. I don’t trust very many people to get on him (that was the only time my trainer rode him)


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## AJ Yammie (Dec 20, 2020)

Maybe he’s just not a show jumper. Have you tried him in a cross country environment? Maybe he’s be suited better for just dressage. My horse Jake can’t jump. Just can’t. Red jumps amazing so I guess he enjoys it


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

Cloud Walker said:


> You can't focus on what was; you must focus on what is; you must treat the horse you have in front of you right now.
> 
> Why does he chew on the bit? Is it a habit? Nervousness? Uncomfortable-ness?
> 
> ...


I have very little pressure on my hands when riding and I give and release pressure constantly for him as a reward for lifting up in my hands and not bracing or fighting against me, I ride him in a Neue Schule Verbindend which after many different bits I find he goes best in, he is least reactive and accepting of it and won’t shake his head as much or ignore my contact or signals 
i added 2 links, one of sitting trot with no stirrups and one of canter as you can see his mouth does open but he’s not pulling or fighting me it’s just something he does


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

AJ Yammie said:


> Maybe he’s just not a show jumper. Have you tried him in a cross country environment? Maybe he’s be suited better for just dressage. My horse Jake can’t jump. Just can’t. Red jumps amazing so I guess he enjoys it


It’s just so strange because he can put his all into jumping and will jump absolutely anything for me and then all of a sudden decide he needs to do it his way or no way at all. He also gets quite bored with doing the same thing all the time and after doing strictly dressage he got a bit moody


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

loosie said:


> If he is fine going over jumps in hand, it's obviously something about being ridden. By the sound of it, he's very likely in pain. How did the vet supposedly rule out body, hoof or mouth pain? Unfortunately it's common for them to miss, discount or mistake 'normal' for 'ok', and generally speaking, vets aren't specialised on body issues, so I'd be getting a second opinion.
> 
> If your horse is fine in some saddles but not in others, the others obvious ARE uncomfortable & don't fit him well somehow. Don't use those ones on him. Tho you might want to post some pics of him saddled with them, for other opinions here. If so, take pics of the saddle on the horse without any pads.
> 
> If he 'doesn't like' others riding him, could be about fear from lack of experience, but as you describe head shaking & going sideways, that sounds like frustration & not being able to find a release - I sus whoever is riding him is asking far too much, for the stage he's at, and not releasing pressure when he does as asked. Don't put unskilled, inconsiderate riders on him.


When he started acting out my first instinct was he was in pain or something was wrong and we brought him to the vet (mind you I was 15 at the time and didn’t know much) and they did hoof testers, watched him move, pushed on his back and legs and stuff like that. Only thing the vet said was he was a tad sore on his feet which only occurred when he walked on gravel, this was probably 2 years ago when he got this vet exam to be fair and I might look into redoing it. He gets his teeth doing every 5 months because he has a tooth in the back of his mouth that grows sideways and has caused behavioural issues before we knew about it but it’s been maintained ever since and he just got his teeth done a month or so ago so it shouldn't be mouth related. I also do stretches with him after I ride and he gets chiropractic work every 6 months. I try to be very forgiving and gentle when I ride him and always let him know when he does something well, it’s just very confusing because he’s either super good or super bad depending on the day


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I did not see him gaping at all times. He seemed reasonably soft, and she pretty good at having following hands.
He see the low jump (not crossrail, nor pole on the ground btw) and he instantly becomes very anxious. He evades the rider by throwing up his head and moving sideways. And she makes very hard hands, which I do not judge becuase she may have felt him on the edge of bolting. I am sure her reaction is pretty normal.

All I can think of is to get him circing, circling circing smaller circles NEAR the jump, but no AT the jump. If he throws up his head and tries to run out through his outside shoulder, do not answer that with a hard leg trying to force him back to straight. I would keep him circling , disengage his hind end if necessary, restart circling NEAR the jump, moving further away as soonn as he calms down a bit. 

This escape through the outside shoulder is something he has learned that works for him. A person can say, hold the opposite rein tight and put your outside leg on hard, but that only meets hard with hard. I suggest if he turns to the left, as in that video, ,you keep him circling that direction. Do not give him TOO much outside rein becuase it will tip him harder onto the outside shoulder, but do get him to bend to the inside AND to step under himself with his inside hind.

If he throws his head up, follow him up with your hands, but don't get hard if you can avoid it. It's very hard to stay in your thinking brain when the horse leaves his.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

after reading your last update , I wonder if he has teeth issues. h m m . but that does not explain why he freaks out AT the jump . . . quite the mystery


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

tinyliny said:


> after reading your last update , I wonder if he has teeth issues. h m m . but that does not explain why he freaks out AT the jump . . . quite the mystery


Is it possible that when he was started over jumps, you didn't have good hands? You weren't able to give him a decent release? If his mouth was already sore, and a bit that wasn't perfect, that could have been agonizing for him. Maybe he remembers. 

I'm a total amateur, just trying to put clues together.


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

What's his history prior to getting him 7 years ago? What have you been doing in these 7 years besides trying to jump jumping?

I personally don't see pain, but rather a horse who unplugs his brain at the sight of a jump or ground pole. I say this because I have a horse that does this - flips his nose up, canters in place or sideways, bolts - all because I am asking for something other than what he wants when jumps are involved.

I'm going to suggest some videos to watch from Warwick Schiller, I encourage you to take the time to watch them. I watched them a couple of weeks ago, and they have some stuff in them that I think could really help you.
Fixing a Rearing Eventing Mare Part 1
Fixing a Rearing Eventing Mare Part 2

Once you watch those videos and come up with how it can apply to your issues, I encourage you to try it out, and slowly increase the number of poles in the arena. If things keep going well with only poles, increase to the tiniest of cross rails, and so on.


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## Phantomcolt18 (Sep 25, 2007)

Ruling out any physical/pain issues he might just have off days. My appy will 9.9 times out of 10 run like a bullet through the barrel pattern but every once in a while he's like "Nah" and no matter the encouragement he won't go any faster than HE thinks he needs to (which is usually a "speedy" canter at best haha) he absolutely loves his job but like all beings we just don't want to go to work sometimes. 

Did he do this when you were jumping at the higher levels?


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

What happens if you ride him between to poles set up beside each other with a small gap between them? Just wide enough for him to baaarely pass through without having to actually step over the poles. Like *__* *___*

I would give that a try. If he expresses anxiety, widen the gap to a place where he acts like the poles aren't there. When he's comfortable, close the gap up a bit. We're talking inches at a time. And never so close, so quickly, that he shows any significant amount of anxiety going through there. If he wigs out, go back to a wider gap. In theory, with lots and lots of practice, he should be able to cope with a narrower and narrower gap until he's having to actually step over the pole. Over several sessions, of course. As long as it takes.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

It definitely looks like a pain issue to me, from seeing the video. Something is bothering him for sure, for him to react that way. With the head tossing, head shaking, etc. I agree with the above - vets and chiros etc. can miss a lot of things. Also, dentists can sometimes 'overfloat' teeth, and/or miss something, he may have a tooth issue, or something going on with his head/neck. Just a thought. It looks like he's trying to avoid the bit...


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Maybe he needs some time off. Do you ever get him out and just pleasure ride, relax, let him have his head and just move along a trail or through a field?
Just a thought...


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## Barrelgirl123 (Jan 15, 2021)

ame6321 said:


> No he acts completely calm in hand and on lunge line over jumps and poles it’s only under saddle where he has issues


have you have a chiropractor check him out??


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## Barrelgirl123 (Jan 15, 2021)

Cloud Walker said:


> No offense, but that was not as bad of a "freak out" as I was expecting...
> 
> It's kind of hard to see and I don't have that good of an eye anyway, but:
> 
> ...


I agree you should get a different bit or see the difference between the way you snd her hold your hands, the horse may not like the way she rides.


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## Barrelgirl123 (Jan 15, 2021)

Dustbunny said:


> Maybe he needs some time off. Do you ever get him out and just pleasure ride, relax, let him have his head and just move along a trail or through a field?
> Just a thought...


Yeah thats s great idea


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## Barrelgirl123 (Jan 15, 2021)

PoptartShop said:


> It definitely looks like a pain issue to me, from seeing the video. Something is bothering him for sure, for him to react that way. With the head tossing, head shaking, etc. I agree with the above - vets and chiros etc. can miss a lot of things. Also, dentists can sometimes 'overfloat' teeth, and/or miss something, he may have a tooth issue, or something going on with his head/neck. Just a thought. It looks like he's trying to avoid the bit...


This is just my opinion but maybr have a chiropractor focus on his neck and withers


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

He might not be feeling pain any more, but the memory can be strong: something happened, maybe only once, but it was a sharp pain. And some horses just can't take pain. (All my Quarter Horses were really stoical, tended to ignore it. My present 3/4 TB will tell me when ANYTHING is wrong.)

If everything checks out, if this were my horse, I would work him close to the jumps, as someone suggested, getting closer and closer, until I was trotting over the pole on the ground. (Or even just between the standards.) My opinion is that you have to make new memories over the old ones. When he starts to freak, move out a bit away from the obstacles; but gradually get in close again. Quit on a good note. But oh, this takes time! I admire you for looking into deeper explanations, than just saying "Butt head!"


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

ACinATX said:


> Is it possible that when he was started over jumps, you didn't have good hands? You weren't able to give him a decent release? If his mouth was already sore, and a bit that wasn't perfect, that could have been agonizing for him. Maybe he remembers.
> 
> I'm a total amateur, just trying to put clues together.


I rode on completely loose rein when starting him over jumps, mind you I didn’t really know much about starting a horse over them and just started small and over poles but he had no rushing issues then for quite a few years until they would come and go and he would act out. He has the same meltdowns bitless and the vet has said he has no mouth sores from the bit


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

Beling said:


> He might not be feeling pain any more, but the memory can be strong: something happened, maybe only once, but it was a sharp pain. And some horses just can't take pain. (All my Quarter Horses were really stoical, tended to ignore it. My present 3/4 TB will tell me when ANYTHING is wrong.)
> 
> If everything checks out, if this were my horse, I would work him close to the jumps, as someone suggested, getting closer and closer, until I was trotting over the pole on the ground. (Or even just between the standards.) My opinion is that you have to make new memories over the old ones. When he starts to freak, move out a bit away from the obstacles; but gradually get in close again. Quit on a good note. But oh, this takes time! I admire you for looking into deeper explanations, than just saying "Butt head!"


Yes he’s very sensitive when it comes to expressing when something is wrong! I was on a trail ride a while back and he started bucking and rearing so I got off and turns out he had a strange lump under the saddle. It’s just very hard for me to differentiate his excitement from pain or frustration when it comes to jumping.


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

Dustbunny said:


> Maybe he needs some time off. Do you ever get him out and just pleasure ride, relax, let him have his head and just move along a trail or through a field?
> Just a thought...


He had around 2 months off not long ago because of an injury and i’ve never had him in a strict heavy work schedule, I like to do everything with him and we do a lot of trail riding and liberty work. I have only jumped him maybe once a month or so in the last 6-8 months


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

Barrelgirl123 said:


> have you have a chiropractor check him out??


Yes he gets chiro every 6 or so months but all they say is he’s a little stiff in the back legs


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

Phantomcolt18 said:


> Ruling out any physical/pain issues he might just have off days. My appy will 9.9 times out of 10 run like a bullet through the barrel pattern but every once in a while he's like "Nah" and no matter the encouragement he won't go any faster than HE thinks he needs to (which is usually a "speedy" canter at best haha) he absolutely loves his job but like all beings we just don't want to go to work sometimes.
> 
> Did he do this when you were jumping at the higher levels?


No, he was very calm and well behaved when we were jumping higher and more consistently but I took the winter off to only work on dressage and when I try to add in any type of pole or jump he completely changes and loses it and I haven’t been able to calm him down after.


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

SteadyOn said:


> What happens if you ride him between to poles set up beside each other with a small gap between them? Just wide enough for him to baaarely pass through without having to actually step over the poles. Like * _*
> 
> I would give that a try. If he expresses anxiety, widen the gap to a place where he acts like the poles aren't there. When he's comfortable, close the gap up a bit. We're talking inches at a time. And never so close, so quickly, that he shows any significant amount of anxiety going through there. If he wigs out, go back to a wider gap. In theory, with lots and lots of practice, he should be able to cope with a narrower and narrower gap until he's having to actually step over the pole. Over several sessions, of course. As long as it takes.


I’ve tried doing things like that but as soon as he gets it in his mind that there’s a possible jump he will refuse to even walk over it at that point and no matter how many circles I do around the pole he will never calm down and will go sideways/shake his head and if I ignore that then he will stop and back up shaking his head. I can’t get his mind back at that point


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I watched your canter video and he is a lovely mover ad you ride very nicely. I did not see any evidence of poor hands, quite the contrary. This behavior is all in his head, I think. It could be a long memory of old pain, tho. You say this started up more since he had some time exclusively in dressage? 

I honestly don't have any more advice to add. one can think if there are any other outside extenuating factors, such as something that happened/happens regularly that makes him lose sleep, or get too much grain, or be seperated from a 'loved one', or ? Garbage day and noisy trucks going by, or ? Sometimes the oddest things can trigger odd behavior. 
I wish I could help, but I just wanted to add that your riding is lovely and do not blame yourself, IMO.


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## Phantomcolt18 (Sep 25, 2007)

ame6321 said:


> No, he was very calm and well behaved when we were jumping higher and more consistently but I took the winter off to only work on dressage and when I try to add in any type of pole or jump he completely changes and loses it and I haven’t been able to calm him down after.


Have you tried taking him over jumps close to that height lately or just small poles/small jumps? I wonder if he's one of those that gets bored without a challenge and the ground poles are just not stimulating him enough to want to do it?


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## Barrelgirl123 (Jan 15, 2021)

i really dont know, maybe send him to a horse trainer


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## Aprilswissmiss (May 12, 2019)

My first thought when I read your original post was mouth, and after watching those videos I am still thinking mouth.

I know you said he's been examined and all, but a vet usually doesn't get the opportunity to look very closely at teeth unless they have a speculum on. When was the last time he had dental work?

That being said, his mouth could be perfectly normal but he could still just have a huge distaste for the bit or could have a very soft face. It makes sense that this issue would particularly appear when your trainer is riding him (just like @Cloud Walker said, she looks to be riding him with a lot of connection) or when you go over jumps (more likely to accidentally bop his mouth going over or tighten on the approach).

I'm not sure if this is possible for you, but if I was in your shoes, I'd set a single pole on the edge of a round pen, drop the reins (or just ride in a halter!) and ask him to trot around and over the pole for a while, and see how he reacts. If his mouth is the problem, I would suspect he would blow up the first few times as he anticipates the bit hitting him, but then calm down after a while of not touching his face.

Some other things to try would be change of bit or trying bitless. It might not be a cure-all if he has a lot of face sensitivity but it would be silly to not try at all in case he just doesn't like this particular bit.

Edit: somehow I've completely missed the last two pages of responses so I'm sorry if I repeated things that were already said. I'm going back to read the rest now!


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## AJ Yammie (Dec 20, 2020)

Warwick Schiller is great and has helped me a lot. I’d definitely recommend his rearing eventing horse episodes


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## ame6321 (Jan 19, 2021)

Thanks everyone for your input into his strange behaviour! I have read every reply and i’m going to try a few exercises with him to find out exactly what he could be reacting to and if it’s pain related I will get a full vet checkout. I just want him to feel better and if it turns out he’s just not enjoying heavy work/jumping anymore i’m just going to do whatever he enjoys doing as he is my number one priority. My chiropractor is coming in a couple days to adjust him and i’m excited to see if it makes a difference!

Thanks Again! 😄


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I'll just put in two cents also. If I'm reading right, he seems a bit fussy over bits and has a known dental issue. But when you ride him on the flat with soft hands as in your video, he does fine. 

No matter what you try, he dislikes jumping, but only under saddle.
So I'll say that with weight on his back, something about jumping bothers him.

My suggestion would be, don't jump him. Try just riding him and working him for a few months without jumping and see if he remains a happy horse. If so, I'd say respect his opinion as a horse that doesn't like to jump.
I've had horses that really disliked some things for unknown reasons. Humans are the same.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

ame6321 said:


> Yes he gets chiro every 6 or so months but all they say is he’s a little stiff in the back legs


Sounds like you need a different bodyworker if that's seriously all they say - WHY is he needing chiro every 6 months? Why is he 'a little stiff' and what are they doing to resolve it?? I do think chiropractics is incredibly helpful myself, but there are many different modalities, of which chiro is just one that may or may not be effective for any given specific. Also I find they're all far from equal. And the vet - perhaps they're a good basic vet stuff, but just like your good, basic GP, they would refer you to a physio, osteo or such, not presume to be a bodywork expert themselves, unless they've specialised in it. So I wouldn't knock them for not knowing everything, but well... no one knows everything, and sounds like it's possibly not a straight veterinary problem. And HOW did they ascertain the horse was footsore, WHY did they think he was, and WHAT did they tell you to do to fix it?? I'm sussing very little, as they are probably not specialised/very knowledgeable about hooves either.


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## AJ Yammie (Dec 20, 2020)

Has he ever fallen over a jump or had a bad accident with them? If so maybe he’s just traumatised


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## ReLev (Aug 3, 2020)

AJ Yammie said:


> Has he ever fallen over a jump or had a bad accident with them? If so maybe he’s just traumatised





AJ Yammie said:


> Has he ever fallen over a jump or had a bad accident with them? If so maybe he’s just traumatised





ame6321 said:


> So I have this OTTB, who i’ve owned for around 7 years now (he’s 14) who has had on and off issues when it came to jumping or any type of pole work i’ve tried doing. This is on and off though, sometimes he behaves and sometimes he loses his mind over me asking him to trot a pole on the ground, he tries to bolt over it, shakes his head and goes sideways at it. He’s been checked for teeth/saddle/chiro and vet issues so I can’t figure out what else could be wrong with him. I’ll also mention he is very calm during flat and extremely well mannered on the ground. I’ve owned him for quite a while and can’t figure out quite what the issue is, I assumed he was just excited about something different but it’s gotten to a point where he refuses to even go forward and will back up if I ask him to keep trotting over a pole without letting him bolt off before or after and he is also drenched in sweat after riding from being so frustrated. Any advice would help and I appreciate it!



Hi AJ, I am a 15 yr OTTB owner (who is now 19) and recently experienced similar abnormal behavior. I believe it is a brain disorder and like yours, only occurs at certain predictable happenstance: for me on the round trip heading back to barn on trail rides... he actually side stepped up a small hill and fell on me/my leg and stayed down what seemed like year to me- Kind of a right brain lost his mind episode. We were far from the barn, hand walked him a couple minutes, got back on him and he was OK all the way back. He has acted similarly, not as bad, where I have had to get off him before he got too bad/detected early enough, all returning back to the barn. I ride him in the ring, Jump him- no inkling of this behavior. So, the history and what I think it’s happening... bottom line, I think anxiety triggered and brain chemical linked:
We live in Ca and 2 yrs ago, we both, in separate locations, went through one of the big fires; he was abandoned because he wouldn’t trailer load for fire evacuation. 8 days later his landlord was able to come home and the entire time a neighbor who didn’t evacuate, water and fed him- incredibly lucky, experienced no trama & he was fine. The problems came after, my fault, unbeknown, put him in the perfect storm.... I moved him closer to my home (which I saved and would have lost hadn’t I been there that weekend) which separated him from 2 horses he lived with for 4 years & loved, bought a trailer which he didn’t like and we were practicing, and the new barn fed 7am and 3pm- no food from 3pm til next morn. He colic and I was told was convulsing... by the time I got there and the vet, he was better and the vet said to just keep an eye on him. I moved him again because he just wasn’t doing well- First day a wonderful boarder with 2 OTTB after hearing my story educated me on ulcers- bingo and vet missed. She was dead on and after months of trial and error, I’ve come up with a non- pharmaceutical forever diet and most of his issues cured. But he is still prone to his out of mine, right brain behavior when certain anxiety occurs like returning to barn where his friends and food are. I feel the trifecta of leaving his heard, trailer practice and learning his teff hay diet of multiple years lacked (even with a senior supplement), Calcium and magnesium in his diet coupled with long period of no food (now he has a bag to pick from between meals). Funny enough, I can ride him in the ring, jump him, and he’s fine. Maybe something in my saga will ring a bell and help you... perhaps, the opposite: if both of you are comfortable on the trails (and you’re lucky to have them), maybe he’ll do great out of the ring and on them  

PM me if I can answer any questions

Rex


ame6321 said:


> So I have this OTTB, who i’ve owned for around 7 years now (he’s 14) who has had on and off issues when it came to jumping or any type of pole work i’ve tried doing. This is on and off though, sometimes he behaves and sometimes he loses his mind over me asking him to trot a pole on the ground, he tries to bolt over it, shakes his head and goes sideways at it. He’s been checked for teeth/saddle/chiro and vet issues so I can’t figure out what else could be wrong with him. I’ll also mention he is very calm during flat and extremely well mannered on the ground. I’ve owned him for quite a while and can’t figure out quite what the issue is, I assumed he was just excited about something different but it’s gotten to a point where he refuses to even go forward and will back up if I ask him to keep trotting over a pole without letting him bolt off before or after and he is also drenched in sweat after riding from being so frustrated. Any advice would help and I appreciate it!


Dr.AJ


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## Foreverivy (Nov 12, 2020)

ame6321 said:


> So I have this OTTB, who i’ve owned for around 7 years now (he’s 14) who has had on and off issues when it came to jumping or any type of pole work i’ve tried doing. This is on and off though, sometimes he behaves and sometimes he loses his mind over me asking him to trot a pole on the ground, he tries to bolt over it, shakes his head and goes sideways at it. He’s been checked for teeth/saddle/chiro and vet issues so I can’t figure out what else could be wrong with him. I’ll also mention he is very calm during flat and extremely well mannered on the ground. I’ve owned him for quite a while and can’t figure out quite what the issue is, I assumed he was just excited about something different but it’s gotten to a point where he refuses to even go forward and will back up if I ask him to keep trotting over a pole without letting him bolt off before or after and he is also drenched in sweat after riding from being so frustrated. Any advice would help and I appreciate it!


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## Foreverivy (Nov 12, 2020)

ame6321 said:


> So I have this OTTB, who i’ve owned for around 7 years now (he’s 14) who has had on and off issues when it came to jumping or any type of pole work i’ve tried doing. This is on and off though, sometimes he behaves and sometimes he loses his mind over me asking him to trot a pole on the ground, he tries to bolt over it, shakes his head and goes sideways at it. He’s been checked for teeth/saddle/chiro and vet issues so I can’t figure out what else could be wrong with him. I’ll also mention he is very calm during flat and extremely well mannered on the ground. I’ve owned him for quite a while and can’t figure out quite what the issue is, I assumed he was just excited about something different but it’s gotten to a point where he refuses to even go forward and will back up if I ask him to keep trotting over a pole without letting him bolt off before or after and he is also drenched in sweat after riding from being so frustrated. Any advice would help and I appreciate it!





ame6321 said:


> So I have this OTTB, who i’ve owned for around 7 years now (he’s 14) who has had on and off issues when it came to jumping or any type of pole work i’ve tried doing. This is on and off though, sometimes he behaves and sometimes he loses his mind over me asking him to trot a pole on the ground, he tries to bolt over it, shakes his head and goes sideways at it. He’s been checked for teeth/saddle/chiro and vet issues so I can’t figure out what else could be wrong with him. I’ll also mention he is very calm during flat and extremely well mannered on the ground. I’ve owned him for quite a while and can’t figure out quite what the issue is, I assumed he was just excited about something different but it’s gotten to a point where he refuses to even go forward and will back up if I ask him to keep trotting over a pole without letting him bolt off before or after and he is also drenched in sweat after riding from being so frustrated. Any advice would help and I appreciate it!


This might sound weird, but have you tried just giving him his head and allowing him to bolt over it? Of course you should wear a helmet and if possible a vest, and have another person there for safely, but maybe just allowing him to figure it out might help? My mare used to rush fences (though not as badly as what you’re describing) My trainer told me to all but drop my reins and go over the jump repeatedly. I was terrified to let go of the control at first, but after a few times I think my mare realized that I wasn’t going to pull on her face at all before or after the jump, and she settled down. It was a process, but now, two odd years later, she is completely calm to jump a course.


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