# Dressage Critique



## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

I am looking for a general critique. This is honestly my riding at its worse. Not to make excuses, but I think the factors that effects me most in this, is that this saddle does NOT fit me. Every time I rise, my crotch slams into the pommel and I have only ridden maybe 8 times since November. Along with this horse being very inconsistent, and wanting to drift to the door. This is a horse I have been riding, to help develop me since he is not very easy to ride. So please critique, kindly. Thank you. I am working with a trainer, who trains FEI horses. But I still am learning a lot, and wanted an actual critique from outside.

IMG_1008_zpsurnz9ogs.mp4 Video by caoticperfection | Photobucket

The video looks very blurry after having uploaded it, but it is very clear on my phone.. I hope it works.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

A couple photos incase the video does not clear up..


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## celestejasper13 (May 16, 2014)

The video wont load on my phone so I'll watch it later but for now I'll comment on some things I can see in the photos. 

Obviously I can't see the horses head so it's hard to comment on your contact, however you need to raise your hands just a little bit, with a bit more bend in your elbows. I find having my arms straight down tends to drag my body forward with them, when I bend my elbows it elevates my back and keeps my shoulders back. 

I also think, looking at the last photo, you need to shorten your stirrups a hole, especially if you haven't been riding regularly, it's better not to have to reach into your stirrups. This may be part of the reason you feel the saddle doesn't fit, maybe you can't quite get enough lift out of it when rising in your stirrups. 
Try to keep your heels down and rise by pushing your hips forward rather than standing straight up. Imagine your knees as a pivot point and that you have a string through your horses ears pulling you forward from your belly button. The amount of weight in your stirrups should not change much depending on whether you are rising or sitting, maybe you should do a bit of no-stirrups work at riding trot - it will help you keep your heels down, strengthen your legs and prevent you from throwing yourself straight up when you rise. Then you will have more security in your legs and seat and will be better able to control your horses drifting. 
I hope this helps


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm not a dressage rider, so take this FWIW:

Shorten the stirrups. Don't lean forward. Relax your back. Don't blame the saddle.

I'll delete this screen shot in a week, or right away if you ask me to. I think it is telling, although blurry:










I'd try some time in 2-point and work on relaxing my leg. If it makes you feel better, when riding yesterday (not dressage), I was working on keeping a relaxed, draped leg. If the wind wasn't blowing 30 mph right now, I'd be on my horse doing the same thing today...:wink:...although my saddle looks like this:










Good luck!


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

Raise your stirrups. You appear to be reaching for them ALOT. Also take a second to re-set your position. You have more of a hunter back and a forward seat that almost goes so far to be leaning on your hands. You'll want to fix that. So... adjust your hips so they are sitting upright and not forward. That will also help with not hitting the crotch as you ride. The basis of your position is your seat so you will want that right. A good way to rock back into your saddle is to take your feet out of your stirrups and draw your knees up then let them back down. This will set your seat back and is a good exercise for limbering. Remember your spine is stacked perpendicularly over your horse's spine through your hips, with your shoulders hanging loosely downward so they are steady and your arms can be held at a flexible right angle. 

Good luck and I'm sorry your saddle doesn't fit...I have been in that situation before and hate the feeling of being unable to use my body.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

the saddle IS a horrible fit for you. it is too big, by a fair amount. if you raised your stirrup, which you will find stabilizes your seat a ton, your stirrup iron might actually start interfereing against the bottom edge of the saddle flap. that saddle is a no go. 
find another saddle. I think yoiu may need a "short flap" model. how tall are you? and how big that horse?


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

celestejasper13 said:


> The video wont load on my phone so I'll watch it later but for now I'll comment on some things I can see in the photos.
> 
> Obviously I can't see the horses head so it's hard to comment on your contact, however you need to raise your hands just a little bit, with a bit more bend in your elbows. I find having my arms straight down tends to drag my body forward with them, when I bend my elbows it elevates my back and keeps my shoulders back.
> 
> ...


Thank you, this was helpful! Your way of describing is very helpful


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

bsms said:


> I'm not a dressage rider, so take this FWIW:
> 
> Shorten the stirrups. Don't lean forward. Relax your back. Don't blame the saddle.
> 
> ...


Thank you! I am not blaming the saddle, but it is a big part of the issue. It is not my horse or saddle, and because it fits the horse is has been flocked for, I have to use it when I ride him. But it is way too big for me, both in seat, flap, and twist.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

lostastirrup said:


> Raise your stirrups. You appear to be reaching for them ALOT. Also take a second to re-set your position. You have more of a hunter back and a forward seat that almost goes so far to be leaning on your hands. You'll want to fix that. So... adjust your hips so they are sitting upright and not forward. That will also help with not hitting the crotch as you ride. The basis of your position is your seat so you will want that right. A good way to rock back into your saddle is to take your feet out of your stirrups and draw your knees up then let them back down. This will set your seat back and is a good exercise for limbering. Remember your spine is stacked perpendicularly over your horse's spine through your hips, with your shoulders hanging loosely downward so they are steady and your arms can be held at a flexible right angle.
> 
> Good luck and I'm sorry your saddle doesn't fit...I have been in that situation before and hate the feeling of being unable to use my body.


I will try raising them more the next time I ride. I am reaching for them a lot, and because of that, can't get my heel down without losing them. Thank you, I will try that too.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> the saddle IS a horrible fit for you. it is too big, by a fair amount. if you raised your stirrup, which you will find stabilizes your seat a ton, your stirrup iron might actually start interfereing against the bottom edge of the saddle flap. that saddle is a no go.
> find another saddle. I think yoiu may need a "short flap" model. how tall are you? and how big that horse?


I agree about the saddle. It is too big for me in flap, seat, and in twist. Sadly, when I ride this horse I have to use this saddle because it is the only one the fits him. :/ neither the horse or the saddle is mine. So I just have to tough it out mostly. I personally own a county competitor, with a short flap. I am 5'0, and he is about 14.2, but quite stocky.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

The saddle is definitely part of the issue, but it looks to me (from the photos; for whatever reason the video isn't loading so take this with a grain of salt!) that you're rising from your feet rather than your legs. The stirrups should be a foot rest, not a support :>

EDIT--It also looks as though you're pitching forward a bit... but I'm willing to blame that on saddle fit. Hopefully it shorter stirrups it'll solve that issue.
And close those fingers~


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think the saddle was made for a 16.2 horse and a much taller rider so not helping you at all
The 'dressage' that you're working on at this level does not need a long stirrup - put them up a hole or maybe two so you can keep your heel sunk down when you post rather than end up standing on your toe to push off it - which is likely going to mean looking for a different saddle - it does not have to be a dressage saddle - an AP or VSD will do just as well
When you ride the trot comfortably you'll be more effective at holding him together and creating impulsion and then have the horse moving properly and working towards some collection - at present he's just 'running' round and round


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

jaydee said:


> I think the saddle was made for a 16.2 horse and a much taller rider so not helping you at all
> The 'dressage' that you're working on at this level does not need a long stirrup - put them up a hole or maybe two so you can keep your heel sunk down when you post rather than end up standing on your toe to push off it - which is likely going to mean looking for a different saddle - it does not have to be a dressage saddle - an AP or VSD will do just as well
> When you ride the trot comfortably you'll be more effective at holding him together and creating impulsion and then have the horse moving properly and working towards some collection - at present he's just 'running' round and round


Im not sure if this will make sense. But let me try to explain. When I ride in this saddle, I feel like I have to put so much more effort into posting, and staying balanced. When I ride in my saddle, or for example my boss' HDR, or Neudersuess (Spelt wrong.) I feel like it is so much easier, and that my equatation is better. I can get horses to stretch, collect, etc in those (the horses they fit), but this saddle throws me all over the place, and it makes it so hard for me to get myself right, let alone the horse its on. I actually remember bring my stirrups up high before, and they did interfere with the flap. And that is when I started leaving them at this level, because any higher and they interfere. Long story short, I feel like I am a mess in this saddle, but in one of the others I feel much better. And most the time my trainer is correcting me, it is in this saddle. Not the others. I hope this makes some sort of sense, and it isn't all in my head lol.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

Maybe post some pictures of you in other saddles. Also if stirrups are the issue- Ditch them. It might be the best option considering the circumstances to develop a seat and not struggle with position. Where your body is now I cannot see a way you could even do a basic half-halt so something needs to change.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

I will definitely try to get video and pictures in a saddle that fits me. Which will be on a different horse. I wish I would have gotten them on a WB mare I used to ride before she left the farm. And yes you are right. I cannot do a half halt in this saddle, I have tried. I wish one of the other saddles at the barn fit him, that fit me also.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

you are likely always behind the motion in a saddle like this. of course it will mean you have to work hard to post in it, since you are not as able to utilize the hrose's energy to lift you up. in such a case, work without stirrups or, do sitting trot.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I've owned 2 English saddles (CC& AP), two Australian saddles and 4 western saddles. None of them 'put me in a bad position'.

I could and sometimes did ride my jump saddle like this:










It wasn't a good idea to ride a jump saddle like that, but it was certainly possible. 

I can ride my current saddle in a forward seat position. It is not a good idea, and it will result in uneven sweat marks because it places my weight too forward on the saddle tree and prevents the tree from distributing the weight the way it was designed to do - but I can ride it like that.

Saddles make it easier to ride a certain style and more secure to do so, but they will not ruin your position or force you to grip with knee and thrust too forward while posting. The saddle doesn't make you lean forward. At most, one can tempt you to lean forward - but it cannot make you. The saddle cannot force you to put the stirrups too long - but when you do, the effort to keep the stirrup on your foot will strongly tempt you to grip with the knee, point the toe down, let your lower leg slide back and lean forward to balance with your center of gravity above your knee.

The width of my western saddle tree makes posting less intuitive than it is in my Aussie saddles...but it does not stop me from posting. Few people ride two point in a western saddle, but I do it regularly.

A rancher friend of mine rode uncounted miles, but couldn't afford to replace his saddle. When it was finally falling apart, he went to get a new one. When he brought it in to show the tack folks, they looked at his 200 lbs and asked how long he had been using a 13.5 inch saddle. After thinking, he admitted it was the saddle he had been given when young. He also admits it felt better, once he got used to it, to riding in a 16 inch seat...but he rode thousands of miles in rough country working rough cattle in a saddle far too small for him.

If someone wants to get maximum performance in a saddle and sport, then tiny adjustments in the saddle can make for a vastly better performance. I use the analogy of music:

If you start playing the flute and have problems, it probably isn't because you are using a student flute, and a professional grade flute won't solve the problem.

When I got the saddle SouthernTrails made for me, I initially rode it with a forward seat. I stayed in the saddle, but the sweat marks made it obvious I was doing my horse no favors. I then tried long stirrups, like I have often preferred with my Aussie saddles. That put my heel under my hip with a very long leg...I kind of looked like a dressage rider except for my feet being home in the stirrups (trying to keep from losing them)...but that did me no favors when my nervous mare would startle and go from full forward to full reverse without warning.

Shorter stirrups, a relaxed leg and trying hard to stop leaning forward is resulting in beautiful sweat patterns and my sticking on regardless of her sideways jumps or sudden reversals. But HOW I ride in the saddle is based on MY decisions, not my saddle's. 

This is not caused by the saddle:










"Shorten the stirrups. Don't lean forward. Relax your back."

The shorter stirrups will make it easier to keep the leg draped instead of stretched. When your toes are not pointed down, it will be easier to keep the stirrups under your CG rather than sliding back. If need be, try to pry your knees apart. Try to get your back straight up AND relaxed. 

I'm not a dressage rider. But my comments are riding oriented, not dressage oriented. This picture from my first ride in my then new saddle shows, I think, that I've done some of the things you are doing now - particularly if you lowered the stirrups enough to get me to point my toe down:










It wasn't horrible, but neither was it caused by the saddle. Had my stirrups be toe-pointing long, it would have made it worse.

A different saddle might well be a good idea, but the saddle is not the root of the problem. It might encourage some things, but it is not causing them. IMHO, from someone who obviously is no great rider himself.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If she shortens the stirrups to anything like a good length for posting then the flap is going catch on the tops of her paddock boots - the flap is too long for a 14.2 pony
I would guess that's its maybe also high in the cantle and that's also pushing you forward Larrissa
Bsms - Yes as long as a saddle isn't causing the horse pain you can slop along a trail in it OK - but you cannot do even low level dressage in it if its as bad a fit as this one


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

I agree with bsms on this one- the saddle certainly isn't doing you any favours, but I don't think your odd position is entirely caused bythe saddle either. 

To my eyes, your whole body is far too straight and rigid. You look off balance, as if you are about to pivot forwards - this is caused by your too-long stirrups and very backwards leg position. Your knees need to be somewhat higher so you have enough bend in your hips, and your lower leg should be closer to the vertical. If you raise your stirrups it will help you to get your leg into a more relaxed position. You want to feel your whole body weight going down through your heels, instead of through your toes as is the case in this video.

Your arms are similarly too straight which brings your elbows too far forward. You want to have your elbows tucked neatly by your side, and a straight line through your elbows-hands-reins. 

Tinyliny commented that with that saddle you're probably always behind the motion. I think you are doing the opposite. It looks as if you are rather forcedly forwards of the horse's balance and movement.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Bondre said:


> I agree with bsms on this one- the saddle certainly isn't doing you any favours, but I don't think your odd position is entirely caused bythe saddle either.
> 
> To my eyes, your whole body is far too straight and rigid. You look off balance, as if you are about to pivot forwards - *this is caused by your too-long stirrups* and very backwards leg position. Your knees need to be somewhat higher so you have enough bend in your hips, and your lower leg should be closer to the vertical. *If you raise your stirrups it will help you to get your leg into a more relaxed position. *You want to feel your whole body weight going down through your heels, instead of through your toes as is the case in this video.
> 
> ...


She can't raise the stirrups because the saddle flap is too long - which is why its a bad fit for the horse and the root of her problems


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee, I don't believe in 'slopping along a trail'. But if you can't do 'low level dressage' in a saddle like that, you ought to rethink your riding. You ought to be able to do low level dressage in a jump saddle - or a western one. 

Heck, for practicing, she could wear cowboy boots and shorten her stirrups. Or - perish the thought - wear jeans over the top of lace up boots and ride. I see nothing that would prevent her from posting in that saddle.

I also see nothing that forces her to lean forward, nor is there anything that would force her heel behind her. If my jump saddle didn't force me to lean forward, why does her dressage saddle? If the too wide Martin saddle I used to use couldn't force me to lean forward, then the tilt of this one is not doing it.

A saddle may not be OPTIMUM for a horse & rider, but the problems I'm seeing are not FORCED by the saddle. It is not MAKING her do stuff. The hollowed loin is not a saddle issue. Leaning forward is not a saddle issue. Her stirrup length is not driven by her saddle. It may not be a good competition saddle for her...but I've had uncounted dressage riders tell me how dressage is just training and just good riding.

OK, so stop leaning forward unless you desire a forward seat. Don't grip with the knees (which may or may not be happening, hard to see from the video). RELAX. Don't hollow your loin (Forgive me Littauer, for I have sinned). Don't tilt your pelvis forward.

Most of us who have used multiple saddles know the Momma Bear saddle feeling - "Ooohh, THAT is just right!" But if you have used a variety of saddles, you ought to know that you can ride a Poppa Bear Saddle or a Baby Bear Saddle and not lean forward (or do so, if you wish), hollow or not hollow your loin, adjust your stirrups, post or not - all in an imperfect saddle.

If you blame your saddle for your leg position, you'll never learn to control your leg - because you are trusting your saddle to position your leg. If you need a very specific saddle to prevent you from "_slop[ping] along a trail_", then you need to start riding the horse instead of the saddle.

Pity the wind is so high today...I miss slopping along:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

bsms, 

her position is very much affected by the saddle. this is especially evident if you watch the video. my guess is that the saddle is pommel high, too, which accounts in part for her bangning her lady bits into the pommel with each rise, and needing to counter balance the uphill cant of the saddle . she needs shorter stirrups, and this cannot happen in that saddle. she can work on posting more off her thigh, and in fact, that's why I suggest getting ride of the stirrups all together. but, she will never be able to get a really nice balanced seat in that saddle.

there is such a thing as a "seat shrinker" made by Cashel co. it is for western saddles, but might help you get more up and over your feet by making the seat of the saddle smaller. but, it wont' help you with the stirrup lenght issue.

I am curios about the fit of the saddle, and the angle it sits at. if you had permission to post a photo, it would be interesting to see


photos of the saddle on the horse, on level ground, from the side .


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Tinyliny -Thank you. Thank you. I will see if I can get a photo. The saddle seems to fit him okay, but then again I have never really checked it. Being it is flocked for him, and his owner is very anal about fit, I assumed it fit him fine and never thought twice. I will check it out. Once I get to ride a horse with a saddle that fits me better, and get back in the swing. I will get videos and photos. It shouldn't be too long, I am getting ready for shows very soon, I believe. 

Bsms - I don't mean to sound snarky. But, have you ever hit your groin area over, and over, and over, and over, every time you rise in the trot for a good hmmm lets say 30 minutes or so? To the point that it hurts days after you ride. And have you rode in a saddle that killed your hips due to the twist? These are not excuses. This saddle doesn't fit me, and causes me pain. And that is a big reason I am so stiff riding in it. I unintentionally try to move in ways that cause less pain. And I didn't realize it so much until posting this up. A saddle is leather, and wood and sometimes steal. It can't make you do anything. But it certainly can effect you, majorly. I CANT half halt in this saddle, no matter what I do. So no, I can't ride lower level dressage, or much of anything decent in it. I appreciate your input.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Larissa said:


> ...Bsms - I don't mean to sound snarky. But, have you ever hit your groin area over, and over, and over, and over, every time you rise in the trot for a good hmmm lets say 30 minutes or so? To the point that it hurts days after you ride. And have you rode in a saddle that killed your hips due to the twist? These are not excuses....


Nope. No saddle I've ever tried has ever caused me to post my balls into the pommel or horn. Nor did posting in my Australian saddles ever cause me to hit the poleys. If you are posting right, that should never happen - regardless of the saddle. My Martin saddle DID tilt down toward the front because it was too wide for my horse, but it didn't prevent me from posting fine.

All of my saddles would have a different twist. Posting is easier in an Australian or English saddle because of the narrow twist, but I can and do post in my western saddles as well. And ride 2 point in them.

Since I'm 57, I doubt I'm blessed with a flexible body. Quite the opposite. But if you are thrusting forward to post, ask yourself, "Why?" - because it should not be needed.

This was my daughter learning to post, at 4'10" in a 16" western saddle:








​
A few years later, she's 5'2", still uses the same saddle, and has no trouble posting. It wasn't the saddle, although the saddle is still too big for her. It was how she was riding and posting.

This was written from a forward seat perspective:








​
Bring the heels under the hip, and it applies to a regular seat. Posting should be an unfolding of your body, but your balance point should not change. If your center of gravity moves forward and back when you post, ask why - because your shifting balance will affect your horse. That is why I recommended riding two point, so you can develop a better feel for your balance in the saddle and with the stirrups.

Lunge a horse with the stirrups down. Watch what they do. That was an eye-opening experience for me, because the stirrups stayed in place. They bounced a little, but they largely stayed in one place as my horse trotted and cantered in a circle...without me. That meant my feet moving forward or back was NOT the saddle and not gravity, but MY MOVING THEM.

In my case, I found I was gripping with the knee. Not hard, but enough to put a forward/back motion to my legs and balance.

How long the skirts are is no reason to have the stirrups too long/short. I cannot speak to what would help someone do well in a dressage competition because I've never ridden dressage. But I've done enough posting and trotting in circles on a wide variety of saddles types to have thought about it. If my saddle hit my boot top, I used a different boot - or stirrup length. If I pointed my toes to keep the stirrup, something was wrong.

I won't post on this thread again. I mean no offense and am sorry if I have given any. I fully understand how the 'right' saddle makes things easier. I also suspect I may have learned more about riding while in saddles that did me no favors.

Regardless, I wish you well and hope your progress is swift.


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## MaximasMommy (Sep 21, 2013)

How is your sitting trot in the saddle? My trainer started me on the sitting trot by saying it would fix my rising trot, and now that I can bumble through a lesson in the sitting trot she won't let me do a rising trot anyway. Which could mean my rising trot is just THAT bad...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

You can't do a sitting trot (dressage) correctly to get the impulsion and collection you need until you have the strength in your core and thigh muscles to stop you 'water skiing' which is why at low level novice riders (or weekend riders) post
I'm not sure if the saddle is 'pommel high' - impossible to say without sitting on it but it does look as if its cantle high which will push Larissa forward onto the pommel
Most 'off the peg' dressage saddles are designed to fit the typical WB dressage horse which is built uphill with a lot of horse in front of you so when you put them on a horse that's maybe built 'downhill or even level they have to be re-flocked' to adjust or they tilt you forwards
Unless you've ridden on numerous saddles so know the many different ways they can affect your seat its really not possible to give an opinion on something like that


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

First, nobody has mentioned that you have a very good horse for your level! Nice and calm. Yes, a better rider can get more out of him, but SO often I see a horse that needs more training before the rider can handle him. **falls over, thud**
Next, yeah probably a saddle change will help. How much time do you spend riding without stirrups? THIS is the key to a good seat.
Here is same advice I have been posting all of the this year:
Take the whole next week, and JUST walk on your horse for a full hour without stirrups. Sounds easy? You will be really sore when you are through the first hour.
NOTHING teaches you more are balance and centering your seat than this exercise. You can do this exercise in a saddle that is too big for you, so you won't need to change saddles next week, either.
Oh, and one more criticism. When you show this horse, buy a saddle pad that isn't green. It doesn't look good with his coat. Probably white or black would match better. KEEP the pad for schooling.


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

Maybe I'm missing something, but couldn't wearing tall boots Vs paddock boots solve the problem of the tops of her boots catching on the flap if she raises the stirrups? It worked for me, I no longer ride in paddock boots and I have the stirrups way up, I have short,stubby legs. Mine is Western, but ...... ?

Fay


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Thank you everyone for the advice. This horse is not mine, and I won't be showing him. He is a boarder horse that I ride occasionally. My personal horse is on stall rest, and is very green. I do not have issues with her though, but then again I do work with a trainer and my riding is better on her, probably due to the saddle fit and i like how she moves better.. I am a working student, and ride basically whatever I am told to ride. This horse actually isn't as easy to ride as it appears lol. He really is one you either have to keep after hard to keep going, or half halts often to keep him from going too fast. He is well trained, but an ***-a-loosa and he loves to test you. He is a good one for your hands, if they aren't perfect he runs around with his head like a giraffe. All in all, I enjoy riding him but not the saddle. And I won't be showing him. I will be showing a different horse. ( green is also my least favorite color. Not my pad of choice. But his owners collection) I will get videos of me on a different horse, with a saddle that suits me as soon as I can.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

bsms--I have to admit, some of your post confuses me; why would in the world would someone use a saddle made for a discipline other than what they're riding? Makes no sense to me.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

mslady254 said:


> Maybe I'm missing something, but couldn't wearing tall boots Vs paddock boots solve the problem of the tops of her boots catching on the flap if she raises the stirrups? It worked for me, I no longer ride in paddock boots and I have the stirrups way up, I have short,stubby legs. Mine is Western, but ...... ?
> 
> Fay


Tall boots aren't cheap if you want ones that are comfortable in the summer months and if the OP is a Working Student then paddock boots are way more practical because you're doing barn chores in between riding 
The fact is when you buy a saddle you get one that fits you and the horse - you don't buy one that's so big you have to compensate by changing footwear or stirrup length
I could see it happening when you ride other people's horses if the horse is tall and the rider who owns it is also tall - but this is a pony being ridden in a much bigger horses saddle which can't be ideal
If you look at this pic even if the rider shortened the stirrups by quite a lot her ankles still wouldn't be right below the flap


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Larissa said:


> Thank you everyone for the advice. This horse is not mine, and I won't be showing him. He is a boarder horse that I ride occasionally. My personal horse is on stall rest, and is very green. I do not have issues with her though, but then again I do work with a trainer and my riding is better on her, probably due to the saddle fit and i like how she moves better.. I am a working student, and ride basically whatever I am told to ride. This horse actually isn't as easy to ride as it appears lol. He really is one you either have to keep after hard to keep going, or half halts often to keep him from going too fast. He is well trained, but an ***-a-loosa and he loves to test you. *He is a good one for your hands, if they aren't perfect he runs around with his head like a giraffe. All in all, I enjoy riding him but not the saddle. A*nd I won't be showing him. I will be showing a different horse. ( green is also my least favorite color. Not my pad of choice. But his owners collection) I will get videos of me on a different horse, with a saddle that suits me as soon as I can.



one of the reasons he may run around with his head in the air is the whole inability of the rider to find the right balance and timing. so, the rider ends up not being in synch with him and bumping into his back, which makes him tense up his back muscles in self-defense, which makes his back hollow, which makes it harder for the rider to get in sync with him. it's a vicious circle. 
working with him a ton at the walk, working on him accepting the bit, softening in the jaw and carrying the bit forward and down will help both rider and hrose, in the long run, and you wont' have to worry about the whole being unable to post issue. time spent doing what WORKS is twice as valuable as time spent doing things in a half manner, and even in a detrimental manner, as it builds in negative responses as fast as work done well will build in positive responses.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Zexious said:


> bsms--I have to admit, some of your post confuses me; why would in the world would someone use a saddle made for a discipline other than what they're riding? Makes no sense to me.


I have not recommended using a jump saddle for dressage or roping, or a roping saddle for jumping. However, the problems I saw in the video and in the picture were not saddle related. If you post on your toes because the stirrups are too long to reach otherwise, it doesn't matter WHAT sort of saddle you have: shorten the stirrups. 

If when you post, your crotch comes far enough forward to hit the front of the saddle, it doesn't matter if it is an Australian saddle with an American horn, a western saddle, or a dressage saddle - you are thrusting too far forward, so it is time to ask why. Are you gripping with the knee? Been there and done that. Are you leaning too far forward, then losing balance? Been there, done that. A little tilt in the saddle will not MAKE you do that. I've ridden saddles tilted forward, and they did not force me to push my hips too far forward. There was something else going on.

If your leg sometimes falls behind your rear, it isn't something the saddle makes you do. It doesn't matter if it is a western saddle, dressage, Australian or jump saddle - the stirrups won't go back behind your hip unless you do something to make that happen. By gravity, they will hang straight down. So regardless of saddle type, if the straps/fenders are not vertical, why not? What are you doing as a rider to create that effect?

I've leaned forward in more than my fair share of saddles, but no saddle has forced me to lean forward. So if I'm leaning forward and I don't want to lean forward, I need to think about what I'm doing.

Some saddles are built differently for different purposes, and some saddles make good riding tougher for an individual - particularly for a given sport. But posting on a horse while going in circles isn't exactly a sport specific activity. I've met some western riders who refuse to post a trot, but it is still a fundamental of general riding.

My guess - based on my own behavior - is that the OP tends to grip with the knee, creating a balance point that then becomes tempting to lean forward over. The grip, even a light one, creates a pivot point. If you then thrust a little too far forward in your post, your body pivots. The heels go way back and you slide too far forward. To prevent that, keep the leg firm but loose, with the weight flowing unrestricted into your heel. Use a stirrup short enough that you don't need to reach with your toe, because no one can keep very steady in stirrups when on their toes. At least I cannot, and I've spent enough time riding with long stirrups to know the feeling.

A looser back will help follow the motion of the horse without affecting your entire body position. I hurt my lower back in Jan 2009 in a fall shortly after I took up riding. It is only now, 6 years later, that my lower right back is loosening up - and my riding has improved quite a bit in the last 6 months because of it. As much as I liked Littauer's writings, a hollowed loin is not the answer for all riding.

I dislike our Abetta saddle. It is too small for me, and the stirrups are hung too close to the low spot of the seat. I find it uncomfortable to ride...but I've ridden it, at all speeds and both sitting and posting trots. It doesn't force me to make any errors. It just isn't as easy to ride well.

To your question as it pertains to my personal riding...I really liked my jump saddle. I wanted to see if it was possible to ride in the old cowboy style with it. The answer was yes, but it obviously was not the best way to ride that specific saddle.

With some saddles, you need to experiment. If I want really even sweat marks when using my A-fork western saddle, I need to get 'on my pockets'. That would not be right for a CC saddle, but riding on my pockets gets more even sweat marks and a more eager acting horse...so it is right for that saddle. For a long time fan of a forward seat, it feels weird to me...but it is right for my horse in that saddle. But I can still post in it and still ride two point in it and still need to keep my stirrups short enough that I don't point my toes, etc. In the end, I'm riding the horse. Not the saddle.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Yes. I do have tall boots, that I was given from my boss for showing. But they are not comfortable to be wearing in summer, and they do take a moment to get on. They are also not comfortable to walk around in. But fine for riding, so they are only used for showing. The current schedule at the barn goes like this :
8am-Horses fed
8:30am-Turnout mares, geldings, then the stallion. 
9am-11:30-Clean stalls
Then sweeping, and hauling hay out if the horses need some outside, bringing in horses for boarders etc. And when there is time to ride I get told "grab so and so and tack up." So I don't have the extra time to be changing footwear a lot. It is a relaxed, but busy barn. There isn't any sit down and hang out time really. I have tried to wear cowboy boots, but what happens is either the leathers rub my leg, or the side of the irons rub my foot badly. Not to mention, at a barn that raises such nice horses, and is higher end.. I try to ride in correct gear. If I am riding in stuff that doesn't go together, and someone stops by and sees, that could set a unprofessional example. So I try to do things in the correct gear


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Didn't know that this wasn't your horse. 
IN THAT CASE, ride the WALK only all next week without any stirrups and then shorten your stirrups, work walk-trot, *driving forward* and ride just at a _posting trot_ to really build your inner thighs up.
I wished you lived closer bc I miss teaching. I'd put you on my very safe, but sensitive KMHSA (gaited, Mountain Horse) and teach you a terrific seat on her. You get just as sore riding gaited as your do riding non-gaited. =D
You could do a ton of riding bc I need help with more riders for my two unfinished geldings. They are NOT green like your horse, just not up my own spec's yet.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Corporal said:


> Didn't know that this wasn't your horse.
> IN THAT CASE, ride the WALK only all next week without any stirrups and then shorten your stirrups, work walk-trot, *driving forward* and ride just at a _posting trot_ to really build your inner thighs up.
> I wished you lived closer bc I miss teaching. I'd put you on my very safe, but sensitive KMHSA (gaited, Mountain Horse) and teach you a terrific seat on her. You get just as sore riding gaited as your do riding non-gaited. =D
> You could do a ton of riding bc I need help with more riders for my two unfinished geldings. They are NOT green like your horse, just not up my own spec's yet.


I'm not sure it's feasible for me to ride only walk for a week, because I need, like NEED to get my trot work better, and work on cantering stuff. I do very well walking, lots of following in my seat, body, hands etc. Keeping it very alive. I can expand it, and bring it back. (not so easily at all in this saddle) I think I am just going to tell my boss I need to be able to ride in a saddle that fits me better, and see what she can do. And see how my riding changes with that, I will get video. I have shows coming up, and need to get ready in the fastest amount of time possible. So I think first, I am going to try to get in a saddle that fits me better, before going to only walking.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Btw, I have always loved seeing the Mtn horses. Never had any experience with them though.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

You will KNOW you are riding gaited. My mare has really smooth transitions from walk to amble to canter. You notice a break to what you expect to be a trot, and instead, they are moving at a smooth shuffle where they nod their heads. I rode with a women for one season (as a teenager) and she had told TWH's. When I went out to look at Tyke (QH/TWH, 1970-1998, RIP) I knew right away that he was gaited. Gaited horses preFER to move at their gait, just like a SB will prefer to trot or pace.
There is a nuance that you can experience on the many gaited breeds, and those that train in each breed can tell you the differences between THEIR gaited breed and another gaited breed. TWH's drop their haunches, reach forwards, and just FLY along at a running walk. Mountain horses are true to their name and handle hills better than a TWH. To the novice both of these breeds move the same, partly bc the Mountain Horse was used to create the TWH.
Fox Trotters walk with the forelegs and trot with the back legs. (Never ridden one.) Never ridden a Saddlebred, a Paso, a Fino, an Icelandic OR a Marchedor. ALL gaited breeds were bred to be comfortable riding all day, although I don't believe that they can handle the very longest endurance races as well as Arabians.
In the US Saddlebreds and TWH's (new breed, middle 19th century) were very popular in the Southern United states bc they were few good roads for a buggy and you needed a horse to cover distances comfortably. TWH's were also placid and durable enough to plow your field.
NONE of them excel at jumping, but I think that they current thought is that perhaps TB's or TB crosses are best for that, so they are specialized.
Any sound and 15hh or taller gaited horse should be able to step over a log or pop over a 3' vertical, and every breed has an exception to every rule.
Just a little bit of FYI. =D


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Thank you for sharing all that info! I am considering asking for a lunge lesson? Do you think I could benefit my position with this, plus a better fitting saddle?


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Yes, a lunge lesson will help. Actually just plain riding for long periods on many different horses makes you a good rider. Most people just aren't tired enough after a one hour lesson to get them to relax and sit deeply and really move with the horse.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

I will ask for one. Yes, I have ridden a LOT of different horses. I have been a working student at barns for about the past three years, and I am used to riding a different horse almost every time. I used to be sketchy, but anymore I am fine. New horse? New chance to learn more and better myself. Is how I look at it now.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

working without stirrups and without reins is always good for your seat and balance because you can focus on sitting deep and tall
For the rest of it - you need to find a saddle that will allow you to shorten your stirrups enough to do a correct posting trot before you can really progress in that direction


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Here are new photos. This is me riding in MY saddle, and on a horse I like riding much more. This is a horse I am showing this year. I do Intro A dressage on the 13th on her. Critique away. She is trotting in all of the photos.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

your leg seems to drape down a bit better, though I wish that someday you can find a saddle with a very short flap. your stirrup is just barely short enough for you to work well.

as for some things that you can do to correct your body position, and these are the things we pretty much all work on . . . 

don't let your lower back roll forward like that. too much rolling foward puts you in a "weak" position. on top of that, you need to get your elbows back at your sides, so that your upper arm falls as vertical as possible. keep your thumbes on top, on top, , on top! again, allowing the lower arm to roll over , with a flat, horizontal hand position, encourage the elbow to come out, and this is a weak position.

here's a couple of things to help you imagin good hand position. think of your thumbs as being a little "roof" on the top of your bent fingers, which close softly to form the "house" while your thumb, on top , is also bent to form a roof.

the tip of your thumb should point, just like a lazer, at the bit rings. laser, laser laser to that bit, right down from the peak of your thumb roof, out the tips. if the roof tips to the side, it will fall off of the house! keep it on top!

and, when you've got a nice steady contact, with your thumbs up and elbows in, you can give a signal to the hrose by mearly tightening your forearm and kind of "pinching" your elbow, with the firmed forearm muscles, against your side. you dont' need more than that in many cases. try it.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> your leg seems to drape down a bit better, though I wish that someday you can find a saddle with a very short flap. your stirrup is just barely short enough for you to work well.
> 
> *One day, I plan to have a saddle custom done to me and my personal horse when I can afford it. I think that is going to be the only way in the long run that I get one that really fits my leg. I actually have my stirrups as short as I can go on these leathers. My instructor wanted me to punch a hole between this and one hole longer, and drop them a half hole down from where they are in this photo. But I don't know about that.. I feel like that would be too long, and again I would be reaching too much*.
> 
> ...


Replies are in bold.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I took tons of lessons where my instructor kept yelling "keep your elbows in" "keep your elbows in!". I got so tired of the big lecture, I said, "just tell me "Elbows!"and I'll know what you are talking about.

it takes many repittions to form a new habit. and the giving signals through the contraction of the forearm muscles, and the pinching of the arm agains the side was through a lesson. the teacher kept saying, "do like this" and she'd show me. but, without me knowing EXACTLY which muscles she was tightening, I could not "do like her". I had to literally lay my hand on her arm, in varying spots, as she held a pretend rein as if she was doing a half halt. I could feel the muscles in her foreaarm contract, and then I could feel the muscles in the armpit area (as if pinching a million dollar bill under your arm pit!). then I could see how this sort of firming of the arm is often all the horse needs to come into good connection with the bit , and the firming of the upper body also encourages that slight hesitation, and rebalanceing that comes with a 'half halt'. this might feel odd now, but it will fit into the puzzle in a while.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

On top of all the lovely and accurate things Tiny suggests I try to remember to correct my position holistically as I go- So if you are physically too forward (which you are) instead of working on all the little factors (which you still need to do) Take a deep breath and close your leg- creating a little more freedom in your seat (your horse should not speed up- it is not a bump...its almost a half halt) tip your hips back and let your upper body and arms come backwards in alignment with your seat (pelvic bone and two seat-bones) now settled in following your horse's motion. You should feel as though you are gathering your body together and straightening. It's basically a human half-halt. You have to set up _Your_ frame before you can be effective on your horse's


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

just out of curiousity, what do you mean by "close your leg" ? do you mean put it more firmly on the horse? like take a straight, all the way down your leg grip? 

because people always say "close your hip" and that means something totally different.

I wish all horse riders spoke the same "language"!


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

tinyliny said:


> just out of curiousity, what do you mean by "close your leg" ? do you mean put it more firmly on the horse? like take a straight, all the way down your leg grip?
> 
> because people always say "close your hip" and that means something totally different.
> 
> I wish all horse riders spoke the same "language"!


Not straight....and not a grip either. think of it as a 'leg hug' mold your leg to the side of the horse so you can feel the movement of the rib cage as the horse goes- it should not be so tight that it gives a stopping aid- but it should be there so if you needed to you could. It won't close your hip. It should open it and free up your seat to follow the motion...that you are now feeling in your leg. I think a lot of riders just let their legs get carried by the stirrup and this is to kinda help correct the aforementioned straightness where the force of the stride is sent down through the leg instead of up through the core of the rider.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Ok. I like that "leg hug".

To me I think of it more as my leg getting longer , but from the hip, so dropping from the hip, rather than pushing down from the knee or heel.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

You could use some time riding in 2 point and sink your heels. Heels level or up, as yours are in this recent photo and a good way to ride home and get a foot caught in the stirrup. The ball of the foot needs to always be on the stirrup. Try, also, sinking and rising on stair steps, 10-20 reps per foot, and stand on just one foot. I suspect that your ankle muscles need stretching.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I had this problem from riding hunt seat for 30 years.......I went to a biomechanics clinic, and he recommended picturing your elbows touching your hip bones. This ceases the arched back, and the stiff arms in one exercise. 

Your horse is cute!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Since I don't do dressage, I won't comment much. I have been experimenting with stirrup lengths recently. My standard stirrup length was to have my heel either not touching or barely touching the stirrup if I sat in the saddle without boots. I've moved that up so it is about halfway between the bottom of my heel and the bottom of my ankle...or closer to my heel still. But raising it a little has made it feel good to have the stirrup on the ball of my foot. Part of why I was riding with my foot deeper in the stirrup was to keep from losing it. My riding background is in Australian and western saddles on a spooky horse, but I think what I'm seeing now is probably universal to riding - a too long stirrup may prevent bracing (which is why I started it) but it has other effects that hurt our riding.

Beyond that, here are links to a couple of dressage-oriented articles about stirrup length:

What is the Correct Stirrup Length For You? | Dressage Different

Check Dressage Stirrup Length | Dressage Today

Since I don't do dressage, don't compete at anything and will never win any awards for riding, you are more than welcome to ignore my post entirely.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

One of the writers for Dressage Today was Heather Blix. She wrote a short but amXing explanation for stirrup length that explained why having them too Lon didn't make a person a more effective rider, but rather made one less stable and more prone to riding off the horses mouth or being behind the motion , since you had a less solid seat. Wish I had kept that issue od DT, like from 7 years ago.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

At Intro level you should be posting at the trot because that will give you the best advantage at this point in your training so you need to have your stirrups at a length that allows you to do that correctly
At present they look too long for that - probably too long even for a sitting trot position because you can't seem to get your heels down
That means you're putting weight on your toes and that combined with the saddle that seems to tilt you forwards slightly means that you're sitting on the wrong part of your anatomy so losing power and control
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoZ57IiTAec


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

In addition to the other comments, I like the way that your hands appear to be quiet at the trot in all the photos, I'm sure your horses' mouth appreciates that!


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## bettyk (Feb 24, 2015)

Also...try to keep your fingers closed!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

jaydee said:


> At Intro level you should be posting at the trot because that will give you the best advantage at this point in your training so you need to have your stirrups at a length that allows you to do that correctly
> At present they look too long for that - probably too long even for a sitting trot position because you can't seem to get your heels down
> That means you're putting weight on your toes and that combined with the saddle that seems to tilt you forwards slightly means that you're sitting on the wrong part of your anatomy so losing power and control
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoZ57IiTAec



is that video posted as a "do like this" video, or a "don't do like this" video?

the stirrup length might be ok, but the rider in that video has rigid elbows and is pulling the horse down and back with downward pointing hands.


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## EpicApple (Oct 19, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> the saddle IS a horrible fit for you. it is too big, by a fair amount. if you raised your stirrup, which you will find stabilizes your seat a ton, your stirrup iron might actually start interfereing against the bottom edge of the saddle flap. that saddle is a no go.
> find another saddle.


What Tinyliny said... 

Someone mentioned to shorten your stirrups, I think the length is fine, considering that you are rising well above the pomel at the posting trot. In dressage you don't need to rise as much at the post, in fact the closer you remain to the saddle the better. This allows far better contact when riding a dressage test and more advanced moves. That's why upper level riders sit all the time. The stirrup length might seem long because you are rather tense or contracted throughout your body. I don't know how to describe this, maybe someone else could throw in a better explanation. You are not fully stretching down and you are not completely balance. Relax throughout your body and improve your overall elasticity by working on a two point and stretching that heel down. 

A good saddle makes a difference, but asides from that, what you reaaaally need is to improve your seat before you begin to work on anything else. You will highly benefit from working witouth stirrups while someone else lunges your horse. Focus on using your hip bones to absorb the impact of the trot and to allow your body to relax and reach further down without losing form in your upper body. 

I do a lot of jumpers, so I ride far more often with a forward seat. But whenever I go back to dressage I ask someone to lunge the horse while I ride whit a crop behind my back. My elbows have to hold it in place and this forces me to stretch my upper body, straighten my back, open my shoulders and open my thoracic cavity more. Also while I am doing that I will work at the trot and change between sitting and posting trot. I will drop my irons for a few circles and post without them. Have the person on the ground make sure you look up and are not tipping forward at all. Wish I had pictures to illustrate this torturous procedure. It's a great workout and does wonders when I go back to a dressage saddle in a very small amount of time. I also become impaired for a few days from all the soreness lol

Hope this helps !

Edit Add: My indicator of long stirrups while riding dressage is when a rider struggles to get above the seat and is quickly sucked back into the saddle. Then yes, the stirrups are long. Good stirrup length allows the rider to post and have about a hand of space between you and the saddle when rising. Which OP can do by looking at the pictures. Otherwise if the rider is able to rise, but is having trouble reaching the stirrups, then that is mostly an indicator that the rider is tense and "short" or curled up in a "ball" instead of stretching down. If you shorten the stirrups, you won't be really addressing the problem and in my opinion it can become counter-beneficial in some cases. Try working on stretching out more, and if you still feel unbalanced or having a terrible time reaching down you can readjust.


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