# Monty Roberts



## JessXxX (Oct 30, 2009)

Just wondering what your thoughts on him are really  any opinion welcome but obviously don't bash other people's opinions ^^

um I personally quite like him I've seen one of his demonstrations with kelly marks in england  and i loved the way they used real peoples horses that really had problems rather than their own which may have been staged etc I like his methods and the online university covers so many subjects even dressage! and how to do his method "join-up" without a round pen etc I haven't tried it yet but I know my 9 year old new forest was broken in using his methods from one of his trained representitives and I know my boy is very sweet although at the moment he is testing me as I only got him in august  so yeah just tell me your thoughts  I'm just interested to know other peoples opinions on him and his work


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Nobody could accomplish what he has without being an incredible horseman. He is one of the few "clinicians" that has been a champion at any kind of competition and he has been at the top of a few. I like what he has to say and the way he handles his horses.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

He is my favorite of the big name clinicians. 
I was kind of hesitant of him at first because he seemed to have a wacky "be one with the horse" vibe from people who had talked to him. Then I read his books and became a big fan. He is very common sense and easy to understand. 
I have had good success with the join up methods. I had been using them before reading the books without knowing it but reading the books gave me a much clearer picture of how to utilize my roundpen time.


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## JessXxX (Oct 30, 2009)

Thanks for replying I see you are of a similar opinion to me about him 

I really want to try join-up but I'm kind of hesistant as I don't want to mess it up I'm going to get his online university again at christmas so I may try it then just wondering how sort of easy is it? I'm just terrified of getting wrong! haha


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

It depends on the horse. Some horses will join up quickly, others take a more experienced hand. I've found it directly relates to where they stand in their horse heard and how well you assert yourself as a leader. 

Have you read his books? I forget which one it is but he goes through step by step on how to do the join up method. I believe he also has some video examples on youtube but I would have to find them in amoung the wanna be horse trainers that post on there.


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## JessXxX (Oct 30, 2009)

yeah he has videos on his online university  step-by-step I think Rascal should get it pretty quick as thats how he was broken in so has done it before


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I love Monty Roberts! He used to have free vidoes on his website but I don't think he has them anymore. I would sooo want to do his online university!


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## JessXxX (Oct 30, 2009)

it's really good well worth the money, which I don't actually think is that much when you consider what you get out of it. It covers soo many topics and it's just a great resource! you definately should save up for it!


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I think I will! I have wanted to do since it came out and it's not even very expensive!


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## leni09 (Nov 10, 2010)

monty roberts takes all of his ideas from the Dorrance brothers (tom and bill) who are thought of as the first "modern natural horsemen" and influenced the likes of Ray Hunt, recently deceased yet still one of the best horsemen of our time. While bill mainly worked on their farm, tom (to a lesser degree) and ray travelled worldwide giving natural horsemanship clinics way before monty roberts appeared on the scene. the thing i dont like about monty and the likes of pat parelli is that they are in it for the money and the publicity rather than for the good of the horse..
while what he does is very good, i would say if possible try and go back to the roots and read work by ray hunt (just look on google), i think there are clinics going on by his tutors aswell.. the most important thing i think is to question everything you see, have an open mind and dont stop learning, monty says lots of useful stuff but i think the origional is often the best


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

really? I don't find him like that at all...


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I think it's fair to say most natural horsemanship training will trace back to the Dorrance brothers or Ray Hunt however I would hesitate to lable them as clinicians as they seem like much more than that


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

I don't believe that Monty Roberts has become nearly as focused on publicity as Parelli. I have a lot of respect for him.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Spastic_Dove said:


> I think it's fair to say most natural horsemanship training will trace back to the Dorrance brothers or Ray Hunt however I would hesitate to lable them as clinicians as they seem like much more than that


 I agree but the ironic thing is that they INVENTED clinics.


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## gimlinchen (Nov 19, 2010)

Monty Roberts did a lot of good in Germany - opening peoples minds for considering the way horses might think and feel.

if he makes money with that - fine with me.
I like a few others better, as far as theory is concerned, e.g. Mark Rashid

A problem with Mr Roberts over here in Germany is, that people tend to simplify and apply what he does or says fast and not too skilled. I dont think anyone should do a join-up unsupervised, e.g. That problem will always appear if what you say and show SOUNDS and LOOKS simple. i know of quite a few victims of this approach in the wrong hands


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

Regardless of where he learned what he has learned, he presents his knowledge and experience in an easily accessible way. He uses simple language, diagrams and pictures to illustrates steps in his training. His books are affordable and widely available. Other trainers, perhaps including those he learned from, tend not to be so easily accessible and easily understand. 

I've got to say, I don't think his franchise is as money centric as Parelli. I've read a book or so of Roberts and he doesn't encourage you to purchase anything from him, there aren't any levels, or special equipment. You don't need to attend a clinic to understand him. 

I like him to an extent. I think the Join Up is pretty neat, and some of the ways he discusses training and horses gives you a new a perspective (at least it did back when I was a kid). I've met him briefly and he seems like a nice guy. I've met Parelli too but much preferred Roberts. Beyond basic work though there doesn't seem to be a lot there. Basic work is important, it helps to build the foundations for later training but I do not feel that it is a "complete" system by any means. 

Go ahead and try it with your horse, its pretty simple  Be aware though, at least in my experience, it is difficult to achieve the join up outside of a roundyard. I would even say "near impossible" for the inexperienced trainer and average horse.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> I agree but the ironic thing is that they INVENTED clinics.


Good point!


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## SkyeAngel (Sep 8, 2010)

Generally speaking I agree with many of the above posters, in that I find I have more respect for him in the fact that he does not appear geared towards profit, especially when compared to someone like the Parelli's. 

I also say him tour with Kelly Marks here in England and his demonstrations were amazing! He certainly made excellent progress in a short time with a horse belonging to the member of the audience who confirmed that he had not worked with the horse before. 

That said, I don't really think the join-up process is suitable for EVERY horse. I know someone who is very experienced and also attended the show who has never found it to beneficial with her mare.

Overall though, I'm fairly keen on Roberts and his work. xx


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## LoveStory10 (Oct 31, 2009)

I think he's brilliant! I have all of his books, and I use join up on one of my mares, and it's helping alot.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

He does more with problem horses or just starting them then finishing training.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

I think Monty Roberts is one of my favorites. I don't think he is in it just for the money, everyone has to make money. Best book of his is "From my hands to yours" I have a copy of it on my desk. He goes into detail about "Join-up". I did join up with Hunter when I first got him and it worked. I wish I had a round pen now though because we need to do it again. Can't wait to read his new book.
Oh and read his Horse Sense for People too, that is a really good book.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

His book (The Man Who Listens to Horses) is one of the few autobiographies that has really stuck in my mind and changed the way I look at horses. Of course no single person has all the answers when it comes to horse training but he certainly has many of them and some insightful observations, well worth reading.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

OK I was just googling some Monty Roberts stuff and came across this book "Horse Whispers and Lies". It's all about Monty and how his books are all lies etc. Has anyone else heard of this?
Horse Whispers & Lies


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Well according to that website, that book looks at the claims he made against his father regarding his _fathers_ abusive acts against horses and other family members, can't find anything relating to Monty Robert's training methods in particular?


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## kmacdougall (Feb 12, 2010)

I never really use his methods on my current horse because there has never really been the need, but I do still really like him. I feel like I could go over to his house for tea and talk horses with him.. His books give the impression that he is just a very normal person, not caught up in whatever fame he may have achieved.


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## Shimla101 (Nov 7, 2010)

Of all the 'natural horsemanship' options available out there, Monty Roberts is by far and away the only one I'll ever consider using, and have used successfully in the past.
The reason?
Because he uses COMMON SENSE!
I love that!


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

The grand daddy of un-natural horsemanship. I have watched him make every horse he touches _*subjugated*_ to him, and that is not a partnership.

Working a horse around and around in a round pen till it is tired, then jerking it forward and backward with his Dually halter for another ten minutes, all of this to get the horse to load in a trailer:::: is not horsemanship.

This was not a one time thing, it has been mupltiple times that he has demonstrated getting a horse to load in a trailer in this manner.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

spirithorse8 said:


> The grand daddy of un-natural horsemanship. I have watched him make every horse he touches _*subjugated*_ to him, and that is not a partnership.
> 
> Working a horse around and around in a round pen till it is tired, then jerking it forward and backward with his Dually halter for another ten minutes, all of this to get the horse to load in a trailer:::: is not horsemanship.
> 
> This was not a one time thing, it has been mupltiple times that he has demonstrated getting a horse to load in a trailer in this manner.



Am I mistaken or are you a total Parelli person. Its not about working them in a round pen til they are tired. It only took 5 mins with Hunter AND IT WORKED!. AND you dont jerk them around with the dually at all, you just have to know how to use it properly. Kinda like the Parelli theory and the stick.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

spirithorse8 said:


> The grand daddy of un-natural horsemanship. I have watched him make every horse he touches _*subjugated*_ to him, and that is not a partnership.
> 
> Working a horse around and around in a round pen till it is tired, then jerking it forward and backward with his Dually halter for another ten minutes, all of this to get the horse to load in a trailer:::: is not horsemanship.
> 
> This was not a one time thing, it has been mupltiple times that he has demonstrated getting a horse to load in a trailer in this manner.


1.) No Horsemanship is 'natural' it is a marketing term used by _humans_ to suck in other _humans_ in an attempt to appeal to _human_ emotions. I am still waiting for the day when some new natural horse trainer comes out with a book detailing how you train a wild horse in the middle of nowhere in Montana or wherever with no equipment, no restraints and without actually touching the horse or impinging on its freedom in any way. Now that might be closer to natural horsemanship.

2.) All horse training requires subjugation on some level, it's just the way you go about it that differs.

3.) I am pretty sure Monty Roberts doesn't refer to _himself_ as a natural horseman or use the phrase natural horsemanship in any of his training material, that is a label that people have given HIM.

Of course, not everyone agrees with his methods and I respect that, just a few points in your post that I wanted to address.


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## FoxyRoxy1507 (Jul 15, 2008)

he used to b my mentor.. until me and one of my friends and our horses were apart of his clinic about 7 or 8yrs ago.. i had a very bad experience even with meeting him.. since then i dont like him


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

Folks...I wrote down what I saw this man do with my own eyes. 

I am not a follower of any of the "clinicians", simply because I do not appreciate they subjugation of the horse.

Subjugate means, to bring under the yoke, to subdue
That is not horsemanship...a true horseman is a partner working with the horse, asking and allowing not demanding and forcing.


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## FoxyRoxy1507 (Jul 15, 2008)

spirithorse8 said:


> Folks...I wrote down what I saw this man do with my own eyes.
> 
> I am not a follower of any of the "clinicians", simply because I do not appreciate they subjugation of the horse.
> 
> ...


 
this too is what i saw him do..


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

1.) No Horsemanship is 'natural' it is a marketing term used by humans to suck in other humans in an attempt to appeal to human emotions. I am still waiting for the day when some new natural horse trainer comes out with a book detailing how you train a wild horse in the middle of nowhere in Montana or wherever with no equipment, no restraints and without actually touching the horse or impinging on its freedom in any way. Now that might be closer to natural horsemanship.

I just found out today that Monty actually did something like this.. When he was 17 I think? Broke a wild horse in the middle of nevada with nothing.. Only the horses own body language.


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

ray macdonald said:


> i just found out today that monty actually did something like this.. When he was 17 i think? Broke a wild horse in the middle of nevada with nothing.. Only the horses own body language.


horse pucky..........


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I like most of what he does. He has been around enough horses in his life that he can read them very well and knows how to get what he wants. I think the thing that I like least about his program is how he is bases the whole thing around the special halter he has and mentions it every other sentence. Other than the constant product placement, which bugs me to no end, I like watching him work with horses because he isn't all lovey dovey, he expects respect and doesn't pussyfoot around horses like a lot of folks do.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Ray MacDonald said:


> 1.) No Horsemanship is 'natural' it is a marketing term used by humans to suck in other humans in an attempt to appeal to human emotions. I am still waiting for the day when some new natural horse trainer comes out with a book detailing how you train a wild horse in the middle of nowhere in Montana or wherever with no equipment, no restraints and without actually touching the horse or impinging on its freedom in any way. Now that might be closer to natural horsemanship.
> 
> I just found out today that Monty actually did something like this.. When he was 17 I think? Broke a wild horse in the middle of nevada with nothing.. Only the horses own body language.


Seriously doubt it - most of his money was made by pinhooking…and he was GOOD! The man knows horses, I'll give him that!


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

pinhooking?


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## MudPaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Of all the major clinicians out there, I have used his methods the most. I have found his books (like others have said) very straightforward and easy to apply. Even attending one clinic was enough to get me thinking. i have seen him be what people would call rough with horses, but in his shoes, I probably would have been too. I've also seen him be very patient with horses that were obviously putting forth the effort to work with him, just not quite there yet. 

Would I recommend his methods? In certain situations, yes. Though I am a firm believer that the same thing does not work for every horse, so you need to educate yourself as much as possible. 

And riding a horse will always be subjugation, a horse would not willingly choose to walk up to a predator and ask to be it's partner. As a rider we strive for the 50/50 partnership, but in the end, we are in charge (if all is going well) and the rider is doing what the rider wants... otherwise we'd all be sitting on horses while the grazed and wandered the countryside.


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

MudPaint said:


> . And riding a horse will always be subjugation, a horse would not willingly choose to walk up to a predator and ask to be it's partner.


Reality CHECK......horses do not instinctively consider us humans as predators...........that is pure B.S.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Spirithorse: Who do you use then?


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## JessXxX (Oct 30, 2009)

ok guys I think you getting a bit mean here I said any opinion welcome to refrain from fights so please respect other peoples opinions I just wanted to know what other people's opinions of him were...


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

My opinion is that I love him and completely respect him and his methods!


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## JessXxX (Oct 30, 2009)

same!!  have you ever been to one of his clinics?


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

No, I wish I could! That would be the most amazing thing in my life! LOL


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

Ray MacDonald said:


> No, I wish I could! That would be the most amazing thing in my life! LOL


I agree. I would love to go one of his clinics


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Ray MacDonald said:


> pinhooking?


Pinhooking is speculating - basically, it's buying unproven young horses and reselling them for a profit. Such as buying yearlings, training them and reselling them as race ready 2 year olds…or, buying weanlings and reselling them as yearling prospects…or buying mares and reselling them as prospective broodmares. You get the idea. 

Here's an article that might interest you and explains it:

www.eclipsepress.com/mediaroom/pdf/pinhooking_ex.pdf


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## JessXxX (Oct 30, 2009)

ahh they're amazing!! if you get the chance you should definatley go!!


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

But Monty doesn't do that...


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Ray MacDonald said:


> I just found out today that Monty actually did something like this.. When he was 17 I think? Broke a wild horse in the middle of nevada with nothing.. Only the horses own body language.


Nobody believed that he did that when he was a teenager so he did it again with a BBC film crew following him around. He really did do it. While alot of what he says about his youth could be called horse pucky, this is documented on film.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Ray MacDonald said:


> But Monty doesn't do that...


Ray…he WAS a pinhooker. If you go to his website and click on Career Highlights you will see:
"1966 – 2004
Started and trained hundreds of Thoroughbred race horses, producing champions, including:

• Cathy Honey, An Act, Aladancer, Walk in the Sun, Tobin Bronze (USA)
• Alleged, winner of the Prix de L’Arc de Triomphe (1977 and 1978)
• Lomitas and Dajur, European Champions
• Quebrada, Risen Raven, Macanal, Lavirco, Silvano, and Sabiango (German Champions)
• Sharivari and Bahroona (New Zealand)
1973 – 1986
Leading consignor to Hollywood Park Two-Year-Old Thoroughbreds In Training sale"

Please note that to be a "leading consignor" you have to have horses to sell…Mr. Roberts is not now, nor has he ever been, a breeder…so where do you think all those 2 year olds came from?

Below are excerpts from 2 articles about 2 of the horses named above (Alleged and Lomitas): 


www.highoffleystud.co.uk/stableexpress/horseinfo.asp?id=80484&H=Alleged

"Sangster recalled buying Alleged as a two-year-old from Monty Roberts, who has since gained fame for his technique for dealing with troublesome horses but was then better known as a pinhooker."


and

Lomitas

"At this point a certain Monty Roberts enters the story. Monty Roberts, an American horseman and pinhooker starting to get recognition in England as well for his groundbreaking method of talking “ whispering “ to horses to aid a violent-free breaking-in process called “ Join up “, was recommended."


And if you don't think he uses gadgets and what he does is is all "body language", here are 2 videos for you…


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I meant with the wild horse that he didn't use any.. And I have watched these videos many times before. What he does is train and fix horses. And I love him. 

Kevin- I will have to try to find that film! Sounds amazing


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

I've been to a demonstration clinic of Monty's - very impressive. I've read at least a couple of his books - learned a lot. I've done the join up successfully on 4 horses in varoius stages of handing, from foal to 10 year olds. It is very cool. My most fun thing is to walk around an obstacle course with my colt following me in, through, and over obstacles...as a yearling. 

Monty's youth was spent in, at best, a heavy handed home with a dad who broke horses the old hard way. Monte had a softer heart and used softer methods in the dark of night to break/train horses because he knew the harder men would beat the cr*p out of him if they saw him not using their methods. For years he did not let anyone watch him work because they made fun of him so much for not using the "breaking" methods of the day. 

Kevinshorses is right, he did the join up of a horse in the wild. He traveled like hundreds of miles on one of his own horses to do it. When people didn't believe him, he did it again with the cameras. What he learned about horse behavior during this time is the kind of thing that the wild horse "Cloud" documentaries have picked up. 

Monty started young horses and sold them to make money to make a living. I believe that is legal, whether you call it training, starting, pinhooking, or whatever (Duh.) I'm not aware that there was any uproar about these horses not going on to be successful in their fields. (Which means that he was considered a successful horse trainer/handler.) When his name started to be more well known, he was invited to England at the Queen's request to see if he could 'cure' one of her favorite studs who couldn't be handled properly; this when he succeeded, he earned respect internationally. 

From a personal standpoint, I appreciate that you can successfully use Monty's approach with minimal equipment (I have never bought any special gear), and he teaches you how to treat a horse like a horse who will be given a job to do - instead of like a delicate child or a rambunctious puppy or a soul mate. Which, after all, is the most respectful way to treat a horse.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Amazing post!!


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## EquusLanguage (Nov 28, 2010)

Hey Jess,
Regarding your words here:
"I really want to try join-up but I'm kind of hesitant as I don't want to mess it up I'm going to get his online university again at Christmas so I may try it then just wondering how sort of easy is it? I'm just terrified of getting wrong! haha" I think you are on the right track to go-for-it because its the horses' language and if you get it wrong they will be less responsive but if you get it right, they will trust you so much! Nothing to break and nothing to lose!
​


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## EquusLanguage (Nov 28, 2010)

*Good comments Sarah*

Dear Sarah,
Let the horses do the talking, yes? Monty has produced a lot of Willing Partners on the world championship level - 9 actually - across disciplines, which doesn't happen by accident. He must be doing something right when he trains these horses in front of large live audiences. Not many clinicians work without a net like that since the owners bring the horse to the event sight unseen until that day. Monty works with the horses for the first time in front of the live audience.


sarahver said:


> 1.) No Horsemanship is 'natural' it is a marketing term used by _humans_ to suck in other _humans_ in an attempt to appeal to _human_ emotions. I am still waiting for the day when some new natural horse trainer comes out with a book detailing how you train a wild horse in the middle of nowhere in Montana or wherever with no equipment, no restraints and without actually touching the horse or impinging on its freedom in any way. Now that might be closer to natural horsemanship.
> 
> 2.) All horse training requires subjugation on some level, it's just the way you go about it that differs.
> 
> ...


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## JessXxX (Oct 30, 2009)

EquusLanguage said:


> Hey Jess,
> Regarding your words here:
> "I really want to try join-up but I'm kind of hesitant as I don't want to mess it up I'm going to get his online university again at Christmas so I may try it then just wondering how sort of easy is it? I'm just terrified of getting wrong! haha" I think you are on the right track to go-for-it because its the horses' language and if you get it wrong they will be less responsive but if you get it right, they will trust you so much! Nothing to break and nothing to lose!
> ​


Thanks  yep I'm gonna go for it I'm going to get the online university study tons!! and then do it with Rascal fingers crossed for hoping it goes well xD


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## EquusLanguage (Nov 28, 2010)

Great - practice on older quieter horses as much as you can to learn the language - like baby steps.


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## nobody2121 (Sep 6, 2010)

spirithorse8 said:


> The grand daddy of un-natural horsemanship. I have watched him make every horse he touches _*subjugated*_ to him, and that is not a partnership.
> 
> Working a horse around and around in a round pen till it is tired, then jerking it forward and backward with his Dually halter for another ten minutes, all of this to get the horse to load in a trailer:::: is not horsemanship.
> 
> This was not a one time thing, it has been mupltiple times that he has demonstrated getting a horse to load in a trailer in this manner.


He does bragg alot, but he is a Horseman and know his neighbors persoanlly. He is the real deal. Lot of B_, but the real deal


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## CessBee (Dec 6, 2008)

Ive used it with my horses, its great and worked with all of them.
Read all the books of his I can get my hands on.





nobody2121 said:


> He does bragg alot, but he is a Horseman and know his neighbors persoanlly. He is the real deal. Lot of B_, but the real deal


wouldnt say he brags as much as pat or linda do... just saying


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## Opendoorequine (Nov 29, 2010)

Since the OP asked for opinions about M.R. I am compelled to add mine as well. I read the first book in 1997, liked what he said about horse training and "Join Up" originally until I read in Equus about the misinformation and what he said in response to the questioning of him in the article. I can't remember what issue it was but in was about 1998-'99 roughly.

I love that he brought a lot of people to natural horsemanship but I do not have respect for any person who is not truthful and who attacks the questioner when questioned. 

His methods are of the Dorrance line and I too went to the source after reading the Equus article. There are a lot of other trainers that came from the Dorrances and I have read as many books as I can on horse training from Xenophon to the latest greatest. 

I have met several of the top clinitions and talked to them personally or through email. None of them perceived my questions as attacking and when I questioned a method the responses I got were pensive and intelligent even when I didn't agree with what they were doing. I will listen to any of them who handle themselves in a thoughtful manor/demeanor. I have not met M.R. in person but have to add that I am not really inclined to do so. M.R. is a personal pet peeve of mine as far as trainers go. Trainers who write books and sell their service should, IN MY OPINION, be truthful, do honest work, speak of methods that they have used themselves and should give credit where credit is due.

The part about giving credit is because trainers build upon the trainers before them. Nobody is souly responsible for natural horsemanship or riding in a natural way. I want to know where a trainer got their theory and methods from. It's like sourcing one's thesis papers, proving one's background and if one is not arrogant and appreciates the place where one's knowledge came from a trainer should freely and proudly say where the source of their methods come from. I feel that if one can not give credit where credit is due, then there is something wrong with some part of it and I don't trust that.

I have watched M.R. videos and am not overly impressed. I watch the horse being worked with. I have watched videos of other trainers too and watched the horse. The horse knows and will tell a viewer who a good trainer is. When I watched the M.R. videos I was doing so with an opened mind giving him a 2nd chance after several years of training, reading and working with lots of different horses. The horse was not responding in what I consider to be of willingness and some of the things that were said and the actions taken were not in line with natural horsemanship. However I can't honestly say I wasn't already jaded about him.

I don't like following any one person as no one person has all the answers. Another point of interest is that horse trainers have been doing clinics and traveling around the US (at least) since the early 1800's so clinics aren't a new thing either.

So, my opinion for what it's worth is that he's ok, his books are ok but I don't respect him as an author, trainer or a person. I would feel the same after investigating any of the others as well if I found dishonesty. Making mistakes is fine and growing from them is fine and I do appreciate that his book was the first I read about natural horsemanship and I do appreciate that it lead me to study more about it. I lot of what I read from him were theories I started coming to on my own too though. His book was the first that reinforced what I was already doing and I learned a lot from the other trainers and authors that book lead me too including the Dorrance books, and those who give credit to them. On the same token, if you were coming up with some natural horsemanship ideas on your own give yourself credit for your own insight, it is just as important.


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## EquusLanguage (Nov 28, 2010)

@Opendoorequine
Can you send a copy of that article? Its good to back up your sources when there are strong allegations involved in your own words. I am sure we are all interested in reading what influenced you so completely about this trainers work in disregard to all the attention he has brought to helping horses be better understood than traditional horse "breaking". To pivot a life's work on one article by one reporter is not completely balanced and fair but I am sure we want to see what is in the best interest of horses. Could you please? 


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## Opendoorequine (Nov 29, 2010)

It was Horse & Rider not Equus. Feb '99 issue. I will see if I can find a link to it. I doubt I still have the mag anymore.

That was the article that started my own looking into him as an author and trainer. I did give him credit for doing much good for horses however and I was very disappointed in what I found because I did see him as doing great things at the time and did not want to believe that article.


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## JessXxX (Oct 30, 2009)

Opendoorquine: thats interesting, thanks for replying  I too would love to see whats written in the article, I don't know much about other "Natural Horsemanship" clinicians the only ones I really know of are mony roberts and pat parelli so if you wouldn't mind telling me in your opinion which is your favorite as I would love to look into other's works to. I did find an interesting website (unfortunatly it was in french but I managed to sort of translate using google translate haha) that was talking about how the native americans were really the first natural horsemanship people, I think the most interesting thing about it was that it said they didn't tether their horses they were just free but the horses chose to stay with them, they used a method similar to Monty Roberts in that they chased the horses for some distance I can't remember what they did next. It also said that both Monty Roberts and Pat Parelli both claim to have native American ancestours, see now this sounded to me like rubbish as really?? TWO famous natural horsemanship clinicians native american ancestours when neither resemble the "looks" I guess you could say of the native american people but yes slightly off topic just thought it was interesting  I can link the websit and send the translated word document for anyone who wants it I haven't finished all of it yet it also had biographies from several different clinitions and a seperate article of their work so yes if anyone wants it just ask


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## EquusLanguage (Nov 28, 2010)

Opendoorequine said:


> It was Horse & Rider not Equus. Feb '99 issue. I will see if I can find a link to it. I doubt I still have the mag anymore.
> 
> That was the article that started my own looking into him as an author and trainer. I did give him credit for doing much good for horses however and I was very disappointed in what I found because I did see him as doing great things at the time and did not want to believe that article.


Oh, I am glad to hear that because Horse and Rider lost a court case over that article written by a freelance writer - I think her name was Ronna Snyder. There were many inaccuracies in there such as quoting friends and competitors of Mr. Roberts who also said they would sue over the inaccuracies. Seemed Ms. Snyder wanted badly to have a scoop and get it published. H&R made good. 

I am glad an inaccurate and retracted article from 1999 hasn't stopped a good horseman from helping lots of horses and people too for over 10 years on now. Let's be fair and go after those trainers who are still practicing the old ways we all disagree with, eh?


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

EquusLanguage said:


> Let's be fair and go after those trainers who are still practicing the old ways we all disagree with, eh?


Why would you "go after" someone that has another way of doing things? Sounds like you may have a bit of a closed mind. Many of the things that "natural horsetrainers" are doing now that are so new were done by my father and grandfather many many years ago.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Folks, I have shortened an article I wrote the day after seeing Monty at work, a year or so ago. It is my personal understanding of his work.

*Monty Roberts a Modern Western Horsemaster*

We went to watch at Hartpury College in Gloucestershire UK. Monty Roberts is arguably one of the best modern day horsemasters. He is essentially a trainer of horses rather than a trainer of the riders. What he manages to achieve in a relatively short demonstration with a horse with a problem is impressive. 

Monty gives a showtime demonstration. A horse with a problem is brought to him into a circular pen by a handler whilst Monty speaking over a microphone sets the scene. Obviously, Monty has been briefed by the owner of the horse and importantly Monty has met and has introduced himself to the horse before it reaches the arena. Presumably behind the scenes, Monty has been able to choose from a selection of horses as to which equine he wants to use in his demonstration. There can be nothing wrong in this selection procedure after all, the audience has come to see a show of a problem being solved. Actually the predominant subject to study is Monty himself.

Monty is a very experienced horseman who has met with thousands of horses over his lifetime, He can read the body language of any horse. Such ability must be a very important asset for a man in his profession. He is looking for the two extremes in the horse - either it has become aggressive or it has become timid. Once in the round pen, there is nowhere to hide and certainly at the beginning of the demo, the horse is free to move wherever it wants but within a confined circular space. Monty does not want to get hurt but he also wants to give a good show, which might become a conflict for him since he has got to be seen by the audience to achieve something. So he has got to get close to that creature which may well be stressed out by the atmosphere in the exhibition hall. Indeed, the audience is asked not to take photos and at times to be very quiet. A fake showman might think of administering a tranquiliser to the horse but one doubts if Monty uses soothers. So he must approach the horse carefully. The horse probably already recognises Monty’s voice because Monty would have previously made sure to introduce himself to all of the horse‘s senses : sight, sound, smell & body language. The microphone must complicate matters because the horse will hear both Monty’s voice close up and Monty’s recorded voice over the loudspeakers. The tone of the two voices will be different as will be the direction from which the sounds emanate. All would be very confusing to the horse.

Monty is very careful about his physical approach to the horse. There is a technique of carefully moving closer to an animal but at the same time not approaching it in a confrontational way. There is also the matter of eye contact. Direct eye to eye contact can be confrontational. The position of the hands and the arms are important as are the pace and the direction of the approach. The horse of course discovers very quickly that in a round pen, there is not much point in running away but maybe the animal derives some relief by running round and round in circles. The horse at the beginning will not be attached to a lunge line. An English horseman would eventually be aiming to bring the horse to a standstill perhaps by using a whip. Monty uses his unfurled flexible rope to gently hustle the horse along. Thereby he can defuse the risk of a confrontation with a cornered horse. Noticeably Monty carefully places himself to avoid the risk of injury from an anxious or aggressive horse. He knows that the risk of that horse being startled by extraneous sound or movement is high.

Monty’s problem with a horse running free would be to get a head collar. Monty probably makes sure that horses presented to him, which is usually led into the arena by a handler, is already wearing a head collar of some sort, probably a dually, which is fitted with rings for the attachment of the lunge line. 

Incidentally Monty uses a long flexible rope to energise the horse, in preference to a whip. Brits don’t usually have a reason to learn roping skills and they will tend to carry either a whip or a short crop 

Monty at the beginning of his performance jabbers away to the audience but one suspects he is actually talking to the horse, To the horse, the actual words don’t really matter, no horse speaks Englis. Monty will be aiming to establish a dialogue between himself and the animal. He will be judging the creature from the body language of the horse as to whether or not he is getting through to the animal‘s mind. Techniques of non verbal communication are paramount in this process. What Monty cannot do in front of an audience is to use any form of physical chastisement. There is no macho, “always prove the man to be the boss “, attitude in this system of Natural Horsemanship.

Monty very often uses an assistant - maybe a rider on an English saddle but he still maintains control of the action. 

All horses at some stage in their life present problems to their handlers. The problems invariably develop out of some form of mishandling in the past but Monty has seen it all before. Nothing comes new to him. His audience recognizes that Monty’s magical cures come from his mental encyclopaedia out of a life long experience. 

To the viewer perhaps the value in watching him is to grasp the essentials of handling horses:
Firstly horses have brains and a highly developed set of senses. Some horses are very intelligent, some less so perhaps merely street wise. Never underestimate their intelligence, but never assign to a horse types of human intelligence which a horse does not possess. Horses can’t reason.

Secondly horses have emotions, arguably the strongest of which is fear of its prime predator -the human. The horse wants to feel safe so it is up to the human to put it at ease. Monty is good at that. Horses are invariably frightened of the unknown, so the handler must introduce himself to the horse in a non confrontational but authorative manner.

Thirdly - communication is all - one can’t force a horse to do something, somehow the handler has to persuade the nimble 500 kilo horse to do what is wanted

The horse expresses itself in non verbal communication and likewise it tries to read what the human is saying by means of non verbal communication. The horse must get very frustrated when it is not understood. In return the human must be careful to signify the correct and appropriate message. No expression of “Good boy” will work if the tone of the voice is inappropriate and the body language of the speaker is seen by the horse to be in contradiction. Various horse trainers will say that an intelligent horse will cotton on to a new instruction, if properly given, within three attempts. The problem for the trainer is to get the message across and this is where Monty has the advantage. Much of what he achieves has been as a result of his instinctive responsiveness to a horse’s body language. His ability lies very much in recognising whether the horse has received and understood his message.

What personally I would like to hear about are those situations where Monty gets it wrong. Which horsey misdemeanour does Monty dread to be approached with? Even he can’t be right all the time. 

With these words one comes to the essence of Monty Robert’s technique - he has the ability to read a horse and more importantly to communicate back to the horse without the use of force - as was primarily the traditional system of negative re-inforcement. Monty believes in positive re-inforcement ie rewarding the correct result with praise and encouragement. He constantly tries to visualize the world and the people therein as a horse sees the world and the horse loving humans on which the horse depends.

Training a horse to do what one wants is all about getting the horse to understand what is wanted. That’s a matter of communication. It is also all about sensing what a particular horse can achieve physically and mentally There is no such thing as a universal horse, all of them are created differently. Some have a natural ability which others don’t possess. Some have a supreme fitness level. Some have an appropriate conformation for the task and thereby gain an advantage. But the perfect horse is beyond the purse of most amateur riders so we must all strive to get the best from the equine we are privileged to own.

Monty occasionally refers back to his childhood. The fundamental doctrine in hose days was that horses had to accept mentally that they are inferior to man. Methods were devised to discipline horses so that they were instantly punished for disobedience. Put simply the horse was put under pressure until it conformed. An unschooled, ill mannered or aggressive horse was a danger not only to the handler but to nearby observers. Monty’s system meets with the need for an enlightened generation. It is noticeable he never reverts to force but I am sure he is well cogniscent of the methods used in the past. 

Monty is in the business to help achieve harmony between horse and rider. I suspect he keeps some of the tricks of his trade close to his chest but there again even if they were published most handlers would probably not be able to put them into practice. 

I would like to see him work with my horse.


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## Opendoorequine (Nov 29, 2010)

Adobe acrobat keeps freezing my computer when I am looking up sources so I'm giving up on trying to source myself. There is a free on line book mentioned earlier by another poster that was written by his aunt detailing a lot of things too. Horse Whispers & Lies

Simple google searches can dig up a lot of dirt too. I know that sounds like a cop-out however I have already spent about 2 hours doing so only to have it lost by the browser twice. 

Like I said, I don't discount the good a person does, however misrepresenting one's facts does remove one's credibility. 

I don't know the details about the lawsuit, it is also not uncommon for people to recant things in the US that they wrote/said for a lawsuit and not because of a lack of truth or ethics. Just saying. 

Here is one blog that lists several of the controversial snippets about M.R. My apologies for the author's choice of title for her blog but it is a good representation of some of the issues I have with M.R. 
Embrace the ***** Within: Why I urge critical thinking if considering Monty Roberts or any other guru

I believe strongly in credibility, honesty and truthfulness.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I guess for me, I could care less rather Monty Roberts is a jerk or not. 

I think his methods work well in many instances and that's all I really care about. I don't really follow any clinicians persay, I just use the methods that work for me and my horse. 

Personally a lot of the time I think most of the clinicians are as corrupt as politicians.


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## Opendoorequine (Nov 29, 2010)

You are probably right S.D.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

The difficulty I find is that neither the Dorrances or Roberts are professional writers but why should they be. We read in their books what has been written in their name but much of the content of the books was put together by a writer who was neither Dorrance nor Roberts. 

It is no easy task to express clearly in words what goes on between human and horse and in the publishing world before the book gets to print a professional editor has been to work editing the writer's words with an eraser. 

Tom D is dead but reading the books attributed to him can be heavy going.

It seems to me these days that MR is surrounded by a publicity machine.
I watched him at a demo sitting behind a desk autographing copies of his book. At one stage there he was, star of the show, sitting alone looking about waiting for the next buyer of his book. In the meantime, all around him, the show went on selling this, that and the other. Kelly Marks runs the MR show in the UK and she appears to be a cute cookie in business.

Of the horsemasters I have met personally, most come up with the gems of understanding as if by accident. You'll be with them, maybe standing by a horse and out will come words of wisdom that in turn provoke thoughts in your own mind about how to cope with a problem. Later perhaps with a glass of wine you'll discuss the incident in greater detail. The exchange is unscripted and there is the chance to ask questions. 

It is necessary to piece the information together over a lifetime as though the subject were a jigsaw, which is exactly what the study of horses represents. Sometimes a piece fits, sometimes it doesn't and you'll have to wait for more pieces before it does (or should I say 'might'). 

Sadly so many horse masters don't get to share their thoughts and too many who seem to have a magic touch with horses, die without ever trying to put pen to paper

Back to the subject: What should we expect from an organised demo, where the stage is set for the maestro to perform a miracle with a horse - perhaps.


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## Opendoorequine (Nov 29, 2010)

Barry Godden - "It is necessary to piece the information together over a lifetime as though the subject were a jigsaw, which is exactly what the study of horses represents. Sometimes a piece fits, sometimes it doesn't and you'll have to wait for more pieces before it does (or should I say 'might'). "

Precisely and well put.

Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/monty-roberts-70983/page7/#ixzz17TDazElM​


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

If you are looking to Monty Roberts as a mentor on how to lead a calm, uncomplicated life you are going to be severely disappointed but if you look at him as an excellent and accomplished horseman then you will learn a lot. If I wanted to learn about golf I would study Tiger Woods because he is very successful but I would not model my marriage after his nor would I go to him for marital advice. If I wanted to learn to putt better I would listen intently.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> If you are looking to Monty Roberts as a mentor on how to lead a calm, uncomplicated life you are going to be severely disappointed but if you look at him as an excellent and accomplished horseman then you will learn a lot. If I wanted to learn about golf I would study Tiger Woods because he is very successful but I would not model my marriage after his nor would I go to him for marital advice. If I wanted to learn to putt better I would listen intently.


Well put. I don't really understand this mentality that people have that leads them to feel that 'role models' or mentors or whatever you want to label a person, have to be perfect examples of human beings. I truly think that MR is great with horses, I think he likes horses a hell of a lot more than he likes people and frankly I don't blame him for that. People are people, we, every single one of us go through life making the occasional monumental cock up. So what! Personally I've made a couple of extremely poor decisions in my life, I'm sure that if I ever became famous in some capacity they would be dragged up, rehashed, probably over inflated by the media (because lets face it its the MEDIA, that's its job) and I would be properly vilified as I would deserve to be for "getting above myself- who does she think she is???".

I saw the BBC documentary on MR, it played on prime TV here. Watching him work with an unbroken mustang out in the wild was amazing and to be honest I will remember it for the rest of my life. He is a man who puts his money where his mouth is, he does what he does and makes no apologies for it. When he speaks about people with horses he uses verbs and he shows what he can do. What more do you want from him.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I couldn't agree more!!


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

great posts!


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## ponypower (Dec 12, 2010)

I've used Monty's methods again and again with all types of horses. As mentioned it does depend on the horses place in the herd, a lead mare can take anything up to 2hrs to join up with (from experience) - remember join up is all about asserting your dominance using the horses language, so the more naturally submissive the horse the easier and quicker it will be to join up. 

I've been in some unfortunate circumstances where I've seen things I would't like to repeat, and have used the method in front of 'non-believers' and had some amazing results. 

Its an great feeling no matter how many times you do it and a great tool to use for introducing new things to your horse. 
I've taught the method over a few years now so if you'd like a step by step guide to basic join up let me know, I'd be happy to help!


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## StormvaleQHStud (Dec 16, 2010)

The book is called "From My Hands To Yours" and it does show exactly how to do it with drawn pictures and everything. Sometimes you really have to try with some horses, others are the look at them 'im going to kill you' look and they zoom on. Each horse is different you just have to work with them and find out their ticks and perks. I am a huge fan of his training and re'training and have been using his style for a while now. Babies are cuter coz they do mst things in an instant just with a look or a minute turn of your shoulder. But yes I love Monty Roberts work and wish more people would learn to be as soft and forgiving like him. So many people arent its sad. Most of my friends are horrible the way they ride not consistent not phasing (ask softer before you get harsher) they just go WHAM bad horse didnt ask for that and continue to kick whip kick whip then wonder why their horses never do it when they squeeze!!!!!! The goal to get to should be just thinking it and its done. True Harmony!


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Nice post!


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## Five Furlongs (Feb 7, 2010)

I think Monty Roberts is great. I read one of his books and would like to research more about him. Hopefully I will be able to get more involved with his ideas and concepts.


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