# what color and pattern will I get



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

do you know their black status (such as are they homozygous for black?) and the mare's dun status? Also have they been tested for frame?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I see frame in both of them for what it's worth. I hope they are tested before you breed them.


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

the grullo is from red dun solid and a black tobiano, the black and white is from black AQHA and a brown tobiano; mares pedigree below. sire is negative for LWO dam has not been tested yet but will before mating occurs.
I have been told by some paint people that she is tobiano and others say she is tovero.
Rookies Fancy Galaxy Paint

sires pedigree:
Hrs Midnite Romeo Paint


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

"Tovero" is a catch all term that shouldn't be used any more. It means that she is tobiano and at least one other white pattern. She definitely has at least one more white pattern, and at least one of either frame or splash due to her blue eyes. I am leaning toward frame in her case, as her nose still has a lot of colour. Splash tends to want to make face markings bottom heavy, and would therefore erase that colour there. I also think frame because of the way the white runs along her neck towards the top - leaving a nice frame of colour at the top and bottom.

Colour wise: Neither is carrying agouti, so no bay or brown babies for them. Mare is heterozygous for black, carrying red. She is also hetero for dun. Don't know if stallion is hetero or **** for black, impossible to know without testing. Foal could be black or chestnut, with or without dun.


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

Can you tell me where you see frame in the sire, I'm new to the paints, and truthfully the patterns confuse me, it used to be the tobiano had white across the back and overo didn't. Now they have splash, sabiano, frame, and tovero, is there an easy way to keep them straight??


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

It's mostly the way the white seems to want to travel across his barrel rather than to his legs. 

Ignore tovero. It's a word that should never be used. The four white patterns are tobiano, splash, frame and sabino. Each has different characteristics to the way they display and interact. 

Frame tends to make top-heavy facial markings. It wants to spread out and make a bald face, much like it is on this horse. It will avoid the ears if possible though. Again, this is just demonstrating the whole 'frame' nature that it was named after - it wants to leave white on the nose and the ears, thus making the face white framed with colour.

Splash tends to be bottom heavy. It often gives blazes an 'apron' appearance, where they noticeably flare toward the nose. Splash also tends to 'slip' and make face white uneven on the face - more to the left or right, not centered. Again, splash will try to avoid the ears, but will try to cover the eyes if it can.

Sabino tends to be the 'messy' white. It likes to give the horse a chin or lower lip spot at least. Its edges tend to be less neatly defined, and often seem to roan or bleed out to the colour parts. Sabino seems to also like to keep white off the eyes, and like the other two, will also try to avoid the ears.

Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/oh-painted-ponies-105611/#ixzz1hthS9NRL

I would also add that tobiano leaves the face alone, and likes to run vertical. It likes high white on the legs, and often higher in the back than the front. It tends to cross the back at hips and withers first, then the rest of the back if it's extensive.

Frame likes to move horizontally along the horse. It leaves a 'frame' of colour around the back and the belly to a certain extent. It tries to minimise leg white - without another pattern, one would expect no leg white with a frame horse.

Splash tends to be bottom heavy on the rest of the horse, not just the face. It often gives high whites on the front legs before the back legs. The edges of white with splash tend to be fairly neat.

Sabino is the catch-all for the rest of the white that occurs. It tends to be messy, and have roaned edges. It likes leg white, and belly white.


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## allisonjoy (Oct 8, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> It's mostly the way the white seems to want to travel across his barrel rather than to his legs.
> 
> Ignore tovero. It's a word that should never be used. The four white patterns are tobiano, splash, frame and sabino. Each has different characteristics to the way they display and interact.
> 
> ...


^^ this was very informative! KUDOS!


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

thanks for the run down on the patterns. I guess she is a mix of all of them because she does have the roaning in some of her color also it more pronounced on her other side.


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

I'd also like to add that if a horse that is very obviously carrying Frame has a loudly expressed pattern, then it is also carrying at least one other pattern gene. Frame manipulates other pattern genes, it will not put a large amount of white on a horse by itself.

I really think the mare is carrying Splash, although since there's no test for it, that will remain speculation. Actually, I'd be willing to bet she's got the whole range of pattern genes.


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

If I may pick your brains again, here are pictures of one of my Icelandic studs and his mom could you please tell me what patterns you see in them. Stud is a true black and white with a mostly white belly, mom is listed as a brown, but she has what we call grullo and they call silver dapple but she's not dappled but has some roan. she has thrown a palomino solid with a white dun stripe on his back, a buckskin tobi, a palomino tobi, the black and white, a smokey black with color only on his head and his butt, and a solid sorrel with no white all from a solid sorrel stud. And should I be worried about LWO in my Icelandics I have never heard of it in them, so I guess my question is, is it a pattern thing or a breed thing? Foal in the picture was about an hour old. Thank you.


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

They are Tobiano. I don't know if Frame is present in the breed or not, someone else will have to comment on that.


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

Thanks, that's what I thought, but then the white does not go across the back in the little stud but it does on his neck.


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

White over the back isn't a requirement for Tobiano, it's just a common trait.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I don't believe Icelandics have frame at all


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

I'm not sure I know they have what they call splashed white. I have seen a picture of a blue eyed foal in Iceland, when I was looking to import another mare.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Splash yes, frame no.


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## kywalkers2012 (Oct 25, 2011)

If the sire has been tested negative for LWO then there's no need to test the mare. Since the sire is negative for it, there is no way that the foal will be a Lethal White Overo. I seriously doubt that the mare is even a carrier of frame. Unless the solid parent was a frame carrier and it passed the frame down to the mare in question. But, since neither are carrying agouti, the foal can't be either brown or bay based. It will either be black, sorrel, grullo or red dun solid with a greater percentage of the foal being tobiano, since both parents are.


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

Thanks, I really don't care what color or pattern as long as it turns out healthy, and the sire passes his disposition down the mare can be very nasty at times, lol, but I think part of that is she's the tallest girl I have right at 16 hands and still growing, she's making moves to take over the herd of 2 mares and a weanling filly. Hopefully breeding her will calm her down.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

kywalkers2012 said:


> If the sire has been tested negative for LWO then there's no need to test the mare. Since the sire is negative for it, there is no way that the foal will be a Lethal White Overo. I seriously doubt that the mare is even a carrier of frame. Unless the solid parent was a frame carrier and it passed the frame down to the mare in question. But, since neither are carrying agouti, the foal can't be either brown or bay based. It will either be black, sorrel, grullo or red dun solid with a greater percentage of the foal being tobiano, since both parents are.


You should always test ALL your breeding stock in a breed with frame. The stallion test could have been mixed up at the lab or some other such stuff (not suggesting this is the case here, just a "what if" scenario).

Also, if this mare was tested frame and came back negative, I would be very much surprised. She CLEARLY has the phenotype, and with that solid nose, I doubt it is being caused by splash.


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