# Old-School Horse Training Approach



## Wanstrom Horses

Hi everyone!! I know I'm new to the forum, but looking through here, all I see is natural horsemanship stuff. Not that I have anything against it, but I was wondering if anyone would enjoy a timeline on making a vaquero bridle horse. I have a two year old filly that we just run off the range with some other colts, every year I choose a two year old to start and make a bridle horse. Just wanted to see if anyone would be interested in watching some videos on ground training, problem solving, and bridle work. It's a lot different than natural horsemanship. Let me know and I'll start filming!!


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## Endiku

I would personally be very interested!

I have nothing against NH either, but a lot of it just seems like 'fluffy' stuff to me, not really useful for anything and by no means the only way to do it. I'd love to see your methods!


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## Wanstrom Horses

Ok, not gonna lie some people find some things harsh, but people have been using these methods for hundreds of years. I get to filming!! Thanks for the interest!


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## Ian McDonald

I'd watch it.


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## deserthorsewoman

Can't wait


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## Wanstrom Horses

Well that's enough interest for me! Thanks! I'll post a picture of the little mare that I'll be training.


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## jaydee

Great idea - you never stop learning something new so I'd find it really interesting
Some NH is OK but when it starts to go into the rainbow and butterfly extremes & too much psychoanalysing every single thing they do I get nervous of it all because even though I love my horses to bits its still mostly a lot about pee, poo, sweat, freezing fingers and feet, mud, rain, broken fences and bloody hard work!!!


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## RunSlideStop

Yes please!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cat

I'd be interested as well.


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## cowgirl4753

I would love to learn more about training a true bridle horse. Its kind of a forgotten art.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## equiniphile

Definitely! Bridle horses have always interested me.


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## GotaDunQH

Heck ya I would be interested! I'm not an NH follower at all, I have no use for playing "games" with my horse, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure a horse out yet it appears to be high level stuff in the NH world. I'm old school all the way...I show WP horses so I understand what it takes to get a horse to "pack" a big bit and work off of it with no hand from the rider. Bridle horses go SO far beyond that, the bits are bigger, and the process and art it takes to get one finished (which takes a long time) is SO awesome.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Thank you everyone!! Below I have attached a couple pictures of "Pistol" a two year old Dash for Cash/Hancock bred grulla filly. Sorry about the mud and weeds in her tail, like I said, she hasn't ever been handled. Let me know what you all think, critiques are welcome! She was my pick of the bunch!


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## tinyliny

first of all, I really find it irksome that "natural horsemanship" is perceived as something different, something fluffy and full of rainbows and butterfly kisses (thought I would love to be kissed by a butterfly). Some things of NH might qualify for that, but plenty doesn't . There's plenty that was done by Ray Hunt and the Dorrances, and Branaman that is directly connected to Vaquero training of bridle horses, which all goes way back to training connected to Classical Dressage and the use of the Jakima (hackimore). 

In any case, I would love to see your training videos. 
The filly is beautiful.


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## Wanstrom Horses

tinyliny said:


> first of all, I really find it irksome that "natural horsemanship" is perceived as something different, something fluffy and full of rainbows and butterfly kisses (thought I would love to be kissed by a butterfly). Some things of NH might qualify for that, but plenty doesn't . There's plenty that was done by Ray Hunt and the Dorrances, and Branaman that is directly connected to Vaquero training of bridle horses, which all goes way back to training connected to Classical Dressage and the use of the Jakima (hackimore).
> 
> In any case, I would love to see your training videos.
> The filly is beautiful.


I agree. In this forum though, all I see is NH. I'm not saying its wrong. In all actuallity, NH and vaquero styles share most of the same concept, but today the old ways are getting covered up by new views on things, which is fine I understand that's how life goes, but making a bridle horse is an art, an art that is quickly dying away. Everyone can learn something from different methods of training. And I just though I would share mine and the bridle-horse art.


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## Thunderspark

I follow Clinton Anderson's methods......I find Parelli is more the "fluffy" stuff and that the horse really doesn't respect the human doing it their way....JMHO.
I would love to see vids of how you are training, never heard of that.....


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## Casey02

I want that filly...


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## BBBCrone

I want to see! *raises hands wildly* I'd love learning more about this.


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## franknbeans

I personally like (and use) a combination of good old fashioned horsemanship and some NH. In other words, each gives me more tools. Each horse is different, and I use a different combination of "tools". I would love to see your video...in fact, had a similar discussion today with a trainer friend.


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## grayshell38

Nice looking filly! As far as a critique goes, I see short pasterns and a weak loin, but I like everything else!


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## thesilverspear

I'd be interested in the video.

That said, your original post was a little bit unfair. "All you see on this forum....?" How much of the forum have you read? Read through the training threads and I think you'll see a variety of approaches. Also, most answers to training queries will be presented to people who are trying to get some minimal degree of control over their horse and not be killed by it. Hence, very few posts discuss the training of a high-level animal; they're trying to communicate the absolute basics to handlers who don't have a clue how horses function.


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## Wanstrom Horses

thesilverspear said:


> I'd be interested in the video.
> 
> That said, your original post was a little bit unfair. "All you see on this forum....?" How much of the forum have you read? Read through the training threads and I think you'll see a variety of approaches. Also, most answers to training queries will be presented to people who are trying to get some minimal degree of control over their horse and not be killed by it. Hence, very few posts discuss the training of a high-level animal; they're trying to communicate the absolute basics to handlers who don't have a clue how horses function.


My apologies for seeming unfair. What I was meaning is that you see is this forum has an entire sub-category on NH. I do understand what you are saying entirely, but I have yet to see any old schooling approaches in horse training posted in this forum. And judging from posts, many don't know what the art of making a bridle horse is. Everyone has different takes on training horses and I respect them all, but I would like to share a dying art form in this forum.


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## deserthorsewoman

We did discuss this before
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/bridle-horses-137275/

Im sure there are more, but this was the freshest in my mind;-)


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## Muppetgirl

Absolutely! I'd love to have a bridle horse....and be able to ride it correctly! Please do show us!! I've seen a lot of stuff, what bothers me more than somene being a little tough on a horse....is someone who coddles and let's a horse get away with too much!

Thank you!!!


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## flytobecat

Subbing -I would follow a thread on vaquero riding.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Ok!! I will begin ground training tomorrow, (weather permitting). Thanks everyone for your interest and open minds!


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## Muppetgirl

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Ok!! I will begin ground training tomorrow, (weather permitting). Thanks everyone for your interest and open minds!


Wanstrom my mind is so open you can see what little grey matter I have!!! LOL:lol:
ONE DAY I'd like to try training my own bridle horse......
In fact....here's the first question......could an already broke horse (reining) be retrained to be a bridle horse? Providing conformation is correct....and correct me if I'm wrong, but in a perfect world the set of the horses neck into the shoulder, high or low, can affect its ability to be trained for bridle?


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## deserthorsewoman

Great question, Muppet
So, what would we look for, conformation-wise, in a horse to be the "ideal" bridle horse?


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## Wanstrom Horses

Muppetgirl said:


> Wanstrom my mind is so open you can see what little grey matter I have!!! LOL:lol:
> ONE DAY I'd like to try training my own bridle horse......
> In fact....here's the first question......could an already broke horse (reining) be retrained to be a bridle horse? Providing conformation is correct....and correct me if I'm wrong, but in a perfect world the set of the horses neck into the shoulder, high or low, can affect its ability to be trained for bridle?


Well, in my experiences, horses that are already trained can sometimes be easier to make a bridle horse than a young colt. Given they will already be set in their ways some, but most anything is possible. I recently bought a 9 year old buckskin mare, trained for nine years in Parelli methods. She came up for sale at a fatanstic price so I thought I would give the whole retraining thing a shot. It took a lot of time just to get the mare to relax, air out and be a horse again. The mare was previously ridden in a long shank snaffle. I then moved her into a correction bit, then into a two rein with a half-breed mouthpiece. Granted I had to adjust my program. I never use correction bits on my bridle horses I start from the ground, but in this mare's case that is what I needed to do. I then worked from a two rein and she is now push-button and straight up in a spade bit. It took a good four months to get her to that point though. The biggest challenge with retraining a horse to be a bridle horse is to figure out where you need to pick up and start the bridle-making process. If the horse has been ridden in a snaffle it's entire life, then picking up at the hackamore stage would probably be best, or for instance a horse can be ridden in a ported bit, then you could probably pick up at the two rein stage. What type of bit is your horse in at the moment that you are looking to retrain? 
As far as your other question goes, horses with higher neck sets just tend to carry their heads higher, which in the bridle horse world, thats fine I have a roan mare and her neck ties in very high into her shoulder, she just carries the bridle in her own way. She flexes at the poll nicely, but carries her head higher than most horses, but she is one of my most favorite horses to ride, just the slightest touch of the rein on her neck and she will move her whole body.


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## Muppetgirl

Thanks for that!
My horse works in a correction bit, recommended that he shows (have yet to show him) in a cathedral bit. I've ridden him in the cathedral bit, he's very very light and 'up' in it.....finger tip control almost.. I pop the cathedral on him about once a month....gives me a gauge to how he feels compared to the month before

Ack.....sorry about all the smiley happy oh so cheerful faces!


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## Wanstrom Horses

deserthorsewoman said:


> Great question, Muppet
> So, what would we look for, conformation-wise, in a horse to be the "ideal" bridle horse?


Well it is based mostly on preference. Since my bridle horses are all used for ranch horses, I look for horses that have the conformation to excell at ranch work. Really there isn't a set conformation for a bridle horse, but rather based off the work you will be doing with your bridle horse.


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## Wanstrom Horses

deserthorsewoman said:


> Great question, Muppet
> So, what would we look for, conformation-wise, in a horse to be the "ideal" bridle horse?


Well it is based mostly on preference. Since my bridle horses are all used for ranch horses, I look for horses that have the conformation to excell at ranch work. Really there isn't a set conformation for a bridle horse, but rather based off the work you will be doing with your bridle horse.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Muppetgirl said:


> Thanks for that!
> My horse works in a correction bit, recommended that he shows (have yet to show him) in a cathedral bit. I've ridden him in the cathedral bit, he's very very light and 'up' in it.....finger tip control almost.. I pop the cathedral on him about once a month....gives me a gauge to how he feels compared to the month before
> 
> Ack.....sorry about all the smiley happy oh so cheerful faces!


Then from that stage, you could safely move him into a two-rein system, with either a half breed or mona lisa mouthpiece. If your not familiar with these I can post pics! I think making your horse into a bridle horse would be a piece of cake, and very rewarding for you and your horse. Not gonna lie, bragging on your bridle horse that you made yourself is very fun! Lol, sometimes I find myself doing it too much and I'm like Gah! I sound arrogant!! Lol. But anyways, if your horse is that "light" I dont think you would have any problems with it!


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## Muppetgirl

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Then from that stage, you could safely move him into a two-rein system, with either a half breed or mona lisa mouthpiece. If your not familiar with these I can post pics! I think making your horse into a bridle horse would be a piece of cake, and very rewarding for you and your horse. Not gonna lie, bragging on your bridle horse that you made yourself is very fun! Lol, sometimes I find myself doing it too much and I'm like Gah! I sound arrogant!! Lol. But anyways, if your horse is that "light" I dont think you would have any problems with it!


Perfect! Please do posts some pics of the bits! I have a very good friend who is also a very well know and respected reining trainer who could probably help me with this.....it would be something to plan and thnk about for a while, but she would for sure give me the 'one on one hands on' help with this. I find this all very inspiring!!! 
There is something very rewarding about being able to be soooo light with a horse that it is imperceptible


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## Wanstrom Horses

Tried to find some good examples on google so I wouldnt have to run out in the snow to my tack shed, Lol. The first bit I posted is known as the "Mona Lisa" mouthpiece. I own a few of these and I really like using them on horses that are "busy" then their mouthes are full and they can focus on responding rather than bumping the bit around in their mouth. 

The other bit is know as the half breed. My favorite for starting the two rein process, its fairly gentle, but gets the horse's palate ready for larger moutpieces.


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## Muppetgirl

Thanks!!! Good to know! Appreciate it!


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## Wanstrom Horses

You're more than welcome. Since everyone has shown so much interest, I'll try and put together a video on different equipment also.


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## deserthorsewoman

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Well it is based mostly on preference. Since my bridle horses are all used for ranch horses, I look for horses that have the conformation to excell at ranch work. Really there isn't a set conformation for a bridle horse, but rather based off the work you will be doing with your bridle horse.


Of course for a ranch horse you need the right type
I've peeked in your album, saw the little gray, that's the kind of neck I like, even a tad short, but set on a bit higher than the modern QH has it. 
I just see the Spanish type horse, short- backed, high set, well arched neck when I think of a vaquero horse;-)


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## Wanstrom Horses

And some people do base their horses off the "old saddle horse type" and I have one little mare that I think fits that type to the T, the little black mare in the album. But in my area, those type of horses are becoming harder and harder to find  People are breeding for refinement, but I kinda like the old, bid boned, short backed, roman-nosed Spanish type horses better.


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## Thunderspark

Ok, so this might be a stupid question....what is a bridle horse?


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## deserthorsewoman

If you look at my two in my avatar, throw them together and mix really well, that should be close to ideal, lol. The chestnut has the build and the head, but is long, the gray has the pretty head I like(of course), and the short back;-)


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## Wanstrom Horses

Thunderspark said:


> Ok, so this might be a stupid question....what is a bridle horse?


A bridle-horse, so to speak is the finished product of a training form used by a lot of buckaroos and cowboys. It consists of a step by step program using different bits and hackamores to get a horse to the finished stage. Some people say if a horse neck reins, it is a bridle horse. I disagree. My "finished" bridle horses move their entire bodies at the slightest brush of a rein on their neck. My process consits of snaffle to hackamore, hackamore to two-rein, two rein to bridle, maybe adding more steps in their to conform to the horse's needs. Some trainers take it to the extent of changing to certain bits in the moons different stages. I have yet to try it, but its fascinating to me. A finished bridle horse will ride in a spade bit. Like the one I have attached below. It looks harsh, but it is used as a signal bit and rarely does any pressure reach the horses mouth. I hope this kind if explains! Feel free to ask anything. Thats why I started this post is to shed a littel light on this form of training.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Deserthorsewoman, I couldnt agree more lol! You start breeding those type of horses and I'll be your number one buyer!! Lol


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## Thunderspark

Ok, I think I kind of got it but I ride my mare in a biteless bridle or her halter. She neck reins pretty good with me just touching the side of her neck with the reins.......I definetly would love to see some vids of how this is done, it would give me a better understanding of what it really is.....
Thanks


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## deserthorsewoman

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Deserthorsewoman, I couldnt agree more lol! You start breeding those type of horses and I'll be your number one buyer!! Lol


* runs off to try to convince hubby to start breeding again*
If I could find a couple of mares like the chestnut, a bit more correct in the front end, and shorter, but with her bloodlines, the matching stallion wouldn't be a problem........at least I wouldn't have a problem in letting go of the foals, if somebody like you would buy them;-)


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## Muppetgirl

There is a really neat video of a Spanish bridle horse floating around in forum space somewhere.....if only I could find it! It's quite impressive indeed!


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## deserthorsewoman

I think I posted it in the thread I linked to here, Muppet.
but I can search really quick...brb


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## deserthorsewoman

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5895K-Xjupk&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Wanstrom Horses

That's beautiful, a different take on "the bridle horse" outside the cowboy world. I love it. modernvaquero.com is a great site to see ranch broke vaquero bridle horses in action. We are going to be sorting calves this weekend, so I'll will get some footage or my finished bridle horses at work.


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## deserthorsewoman

This is just one part of the whole competition. There is also a "normal speed" handling(trail) test, a dressage/dry work and a cattle working test. Gaining audience in Europe, especially Spain, Portugal and Italy, since they still have what we would call working cowboys, and it's here too. There was a threat here not too long ago, if you'd do a search on here, you find all info, rules, contact, etc.


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## oobiedoo

Looking forward to seeing this! I really like the buckskin filly, but so far I haven't seen a Hancock horse that I didn't like, just wish I was further west where you seem to have such a big selection of them


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## Ian McDonald

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Some trainers take it to the extent of changing to certain bits in the moons different stages.


I must know more about this heathen superstitious practice! :shock:


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## Wanstrom Horses

Good day everyone. With the blizzard we have today, I won't be able to start ground training like I had planned due to bad footing. So today I've decided to post pictures and information of vaquero equipment just to make the subject easier to understand.


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## Wanstrom Horses

OK, first I'll start off with a basic mecate snaffle set-up. Many of you have probably seen this if your are CA followers. Sorry about my crooked arrows, I'm not an artist! Lol.

Mecate- A one piece rope, fashioned through slobberr straps to make a one piece rein and a lead, attached to the left slobber strap to aid in ground work. Usually made out of mohair, mane hair, tail hair, cotton rope, paracord, etc. I do not like using hair ropes for snaffle set up, just because this is the stage where the most "contact" is needed and I find hair ropes are rough and hard on my hands after a lot of riding. I find paracord or cotton have the best feel. 

Slobber Straps- A single piece of leather, fashioned to be folded over the rings of the snaffle and attached to the mecate. They add weight to the reins, making signals move faster from the rider's hands to the horses mouth. Less signal is needed with slobber straps than without. 

Headstall- Any standard headstall will work. I like to use browband headstalls on green colts, just because they are easier to get their sensitive ears in and out and reduce headshyness. 

Sanffle- any simple snaffle bit will work. Ring, eggbutt, or D-ring. I believe the heavier the bit, the better. It gets the colt prepared for a heavy bridle and once again, reduces the amount of signal needed. 

Chin strap- I like a leather or hair rope chin strap, chain and rawhide straps are for bridle horses.


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## FaydesMom

deserthorsewoman said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5895K-Xjupk&feature=youtube_gdata_player


WoW!! Look at the slack that comes into his reins at every turn!! That is one nicely trained horse, no resistance, no gaping mouth, just...wow! I'm in, looking forward to seeing your progress with your little mare, she's just beautiful.


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## jaydee

deserthorsewoman said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5895K-Xjupk&feature=youtube_gdata_player


 Now you see that is just mean because I am lusting for that horse so much - only just got over from the last time you posted it
Nasty woman you:lol:


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## LisaG

Wanstrom, have you seen Buck Branamman(sp?)'s bridle horse series? I received the first DVD for Christmas, and was, of course, totally impressed. I probably won't go for a finished bridle horse, but if I can get my horse going nearly as well as Buck's horses in a snaffle, or possibly a hackamore, I'll be satisfied.

Anyway, I was just wondering if you use a similar process, and where you differ. I'm interested in seeing how you go about this.


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## tbrantley

I have never heard of Bridle horse training before and I am very interested in this. Can this be done with gaited horses? I love the looks of the buckskin and can't wait to learn more..... Count me in.


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## deserthorsewoman

jaydee said:


> Now you see that is just mean because I am lusting for that horse so much - only just got over from the last time you posted it
> Nasty woman you:lol:


*ripping hair out*
seems whatever I do nowadays doesn't go over too well with you.......cat tapeworms.......general horseworms.....now even horses..........
Geez.....would it help if I warn you before posting anything?......
:rofl::hide::happydance:

He is gorgeous, no doubt......


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## jaydee

deserthorsewoman said:


> *ripping hair out*
> seems whatever I do nowadays doesn't go over too well with you.......cat tapeworms.......general horseworms.....now even horses..........
> Geez.....would it help if I warn you before posting anything?......
> :rofl::hide::happydance:
> 
> He is gorgeous, no doubt......


 Well yes maybe it would - I mean in the case of the worms I could at least cross rice and spaggetti off the menu for a few weeks and with the fabulous horses I could just avoid looking at the videos and pics!!!!


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## deserthorsewoman

Alright alright....I'll keep that in mind


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## Wanstrom Horses

And now before I describe a bosal, I'd like to go into a little detail about a bosal and why they are a better training aid that rope halters. 
First of all, a rope halter can twist and move on the face. This can hinder how the signal reaches the horse. It can also be bothersome and desensitize the face over a little time. When a horses nose becomes "desensitized" then the process must be started over at the snaffle stage. They always need to respond to the hackamore with the lightest signals. 
Another problem, that most people dont realize when riding with a rope halter, is that they can rotate and pull out little sensitive hairs from around the eyes. I never thought of this personally until I was leading a horse with a rope halter and he kept shaking his head uncomfortably to one side. I rolled the halter over and sure enough, there were little hairs stuck inside of the rope. 
Halters cannot take the place of correctly used bosals, nor will they add any progression in bridle work. I know some mat disagree, but I use my halters for leading. Thats it. 
Now, I'll move on to describing the parts of the hackamore. 
Bosal- The bosal is the rawhide piece that is the base of the hackamore. It is referred to a bosal until a hanger and mecate are added, then it becomes a hackamore. Bosals can be made out of rawhide, latigo leather, kangaroo, etc. My personal favorite is rawhide. It has a nice, solid feel to it. Bosals come in many different sizes and plaits, as I have added below. A good starter bosal would be 5/8" 16 plait, like the bosal farthest to the left in the picture. As the hackamore training progresses, the bosal gets smaller in diameter, until the horse is ready to go in a two rein, then they are moved into the 1/4" bosalito, or "pencil bosal". 
Parts of a bosal- The bosal is made of of five different parts. The bars, the nose button, the spacers, the side buttons and the heel knot. The bars are the "sides" of the bosal. They run from the heel knot to the side knots on both sides. The nose button is the "nosepeice" of the bosal. The side knots are buttons and each side of the bosal between the nose button and the bars. The spacers are between the nose buttons, they create a groove to hold the hanger. The heel knot is the bottom where the whole bosal comes together. 
Most of you probably know this, but I thought I would Include it just in case, in my videos I'll probably forget to explain! Lol. 

The Hanger- There are many different styles of hangers, from rawhide with knots, to leather with buckles (like a sliding ear headstall without the ear), to "cowboy ties"(a single piece of leather that is tied like a rope halter). The choice of a hanger depends solely on preference. I like either cowboy ties or leather with buckles (like shown below). 

Mecate- Same as the mecate described with the snaffle bridle, except it is tied on with a fiador knot, which I will go over how to tie on in a video. I only use mane hair mecate with my horses in a hackamore stage. Mane hair is very "scratchy". The horses tend to move away from the feel of it on their neck, making them respond more to signals on their neck verses their nose. I have a attached a few pictures to sort of visually explain stuff. Hope this all makes sense and there isnt too many typos!!


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## Wanstrom Horses

LisaG said:


> Wanstrom, have you seen Buck Branamman(sp?)'s bridle horse series? I received the first DVD for Christmas, and was, of course, totally impressed. I probably won't go for a finished bridle horse, but if I can get my horse going nearly as well as Buck's horses in a snaffle, or possibly a hackamore, I'll be satisfied.
> 
> Anyway, I was just wondering if you use a similar process, and where you differ. I'm interested in seeing how you go about this.


Lisa, its safe to say that Buck's process on making a bridle horse is very similiar to my way of doing it. I think he makes things very easy to understand for bothe the horse and the rider, the only thing I differ from is how long he rides his horses in a snaffle before he moves them to a hackamore. I only ride my horses in a snaffle for the first 25-30 days, then I make the transition into a hackamore. The hackamore works off a horses jaw, poll and nose. Almost like a bridle bit does, where as a snaffle works off the mouth. I think horses need more experience riding in a hackmore and getting a feel of working off their jaw than in a snaffle. But thats just me! Everyones different and every horse is different, but I do know Buck likes to leave his horses in a snaffle for almost a year and a half. I like to have my horses ina hackamore, or even a two-rein by that time. Hope this answers your question!


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## Wanstrom Horses

tbrantley said:


> I have never heard of Bridle horse training before and I am very interested in this. Can this be done with gaited horses? I love the looks of the buckskin and can't wait to learn more..... Count me in.


Thanks for your interest. Yes! It can be done with gaited horses, my mother wanted her Tenessee Walker in the bridle, so I took him for a few months and he now works just as well as my other horses.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Thought I would share this. The term "straight up in the bridle" not only means that a horse responds very very lightly to a spade bit, but also that they know how to carry the spade. When I move my horses into a "two rein" system, I like to ride with a bosalito and a bridle bit, but for the first couple of rides, take the reins off the bit and use only like hackamore. This way the horse gets a chance to get used to carrying a bridle bit. 
Below is a perfect example of finished bridle horse. As you can see, the horse is holding the bit on its own. This is a tell-tale sign that the horse is ready for a spade bit. They must know how to hold the bit.


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## Ian McDonald

Wanstrom Horses said:


> First of all, a rope halter can twist and move on the face. This can hinder how the signal reaches the horse. It can also be bothersome and desensitize the face over a little time. When a horses nose becomes "desensitized" then the process must be started over at the snaffle stage. They always need to respond to the hackamore with the lightest signals.
> Another problem, that most people dont realize when riding with a rope halter, is that they can rotate and pull out little sensitive hairs from around the eyes. I never thought of this personally until I was leading a horse with a rope halter and he kept shaking his head uncomfortably to one side. I rolled the halter over and sure enough, there were little hairs stuck inside of the rope.
> Halters cannot take the place of correctly used bosals, nor will they add any progression in bridle work. I know some mat disagree, but I use my halters for leading. Thats it.


This is the first satisfactory explanation of the pitfalls of riding in rope halters that I've seen. I've asked others in the past, and their answers always tended along the lines of 'just because', which has never been enough to satisfy me. I have to agree with your assessment though. The halter does fail to give a clear, consistent signal.


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## BBBCrone

So do you do your groundwork in a bosal? Or did I misunderstand when you said you only use your halters for leading?


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## jaydee

Ian McDonald said:


> This is the first satisfactory explanation of the pitfalls of riding in rope halters that I've seen. I've asked others in the past, and their answers always tended along the lines of 'just because', which has never been enough to satisfy me. I have to agree with your assessment though. The halter does fail to give a clear, consistent signal.


 Have to agree - its something I've always felt was correct so glad to hear it confirmed by an expert (which I'm not)


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## Wanstrom Horses

BBBCrone, I should have worded that differently, lol. I apologize. What I was meaning to say, is that I do not use a rope halter to ride in, ever. I do my groundwork with either a rope halter, a "lass halter" or a snaffle, I use a couple other training aids for ground work, a soft cotton rope, a lariat and hobbles. I don't use a bosal until a horse has a substantial 25-30 days under saddle.


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## BBBCrone

Ah okay thanks for clearing that up!


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## Muppetgirl

Thanks to you Wanstrom I went to the tack store today and was able to point out the Mona Lisa bit and the half-breed! LOL! It was nice to know something she didn't! :lol:


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## HighonEquine

This looks really interesting! I will definitely be following this thread. I feel like my horse would look great doing this :lol:


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## Wanstrom Horses

*The "Two-Rein" Horse*

The two-rein step has to be the most unique stage of the bridle horse process. You are using two very different training tools, a bosalito and a bit to come together to create a handle on a horse where rider and horse really come together. The two rein set up is also the most complicated. I will describe the entire set up based on the picture below. 

The "bridle bit"- I refer to the bit itself in this stage as the bridle bit. This bit came be a variation of many mouthpieces. The half-breed, the mona lisa and the frog are a few commonly used ones. The mexican ring bit is another, but should only be used with experienced, soft hands. Most true vaquero set ups are adornded with silver conchos and plating on the bits. What can I say, I love a silver bridle! All bridle bits are solid mouthed and have fixed shanks. 

Headstall- Once again, pretty much any headstall can be used, but to many's preference, including mine, a split ear or a sliding ear, they tend to be less bulkier. I also love a lot of silver!! 

Rein Chains- These serve basically the same purpose as slobber straps would on a snaffle bridle. They weight the reins, making signals more clear and quicker between the riders hands and the horse. 

Romal Reins- Braided reins, usually rawhide, that are fixed with a romal on the end. 

Bosalito- 1/4" usually 12 or 16 plait. Used like a hackamore, except gradually signals through the bosalito are lessened and more signals go to the bridle. 

Hanger- I only reccomend the "cowboy tie" hangers for an under-bridle bosalito. Less bulky and much more comfortable.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

I can't wait to see these videos! There's nothing I enjoy more then learning something new to improve myself and my own way of training. I work my young horses the same way you do as far as when to introduce the hack. My horses snaffle bit for about 30 days or so to get a good start in handling then I put them in a hackemore. I just recently was talking to a friend of mine about wanting to move my horse out of the hackemore as I was wanting to refine his cue's even more and she was showing me her half breed bit I really interested in trying one. I mean he's great in a hackemore, he is light and responsive works off my leg cues, I even barrel race in a hack but I feel like we could do more with something else, but I'm uncertain what to move into next. Do move your horses into a half breed after their hackemore training? You might have already said what you move into after a hack I'm going to have to read what you posted a few times I'm very interested.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> I can't wait to see these videos! There's nothing I enjoy more then learning something new to improve myself and my own way of training. I work my young horses the same way you do as far as when to introduce the hack. My horses snaffle bit for about 30 days or so to get a good start in handling then I put them in a hackemore. I just recently was talking to a friend of mine about wanting to move my horse out of the hackemore as I was wanting to refine his cue's even more and she was showing me her half breed bit I really interested in trying one. I mean he's great in a hackemore, he is light and responsive works off my leg cues, I even barrel race in a hack but I feel like we could do more with something else, but I'm uncertain what to move into next. Do move your horses into a half breed after their hackemore training? You might have already said what you move into after a hack I'm going to have to read what you posted a few times I'm very interested.


Well, what you move them into really depends on the horse. Some horses are very very sensitive and you can only at first use a simple ported mouthpiece. But where it sounds like that horse is very soft, I would see a problem in moving into a half breed. The half breed really is a great bit. I would start just by seeing if the horse will accpet it and carry the bit. Maybe borrow one or something? And ride him in a hack, but put the bit over that hack and just let him get a feel for it. Its kind of trial and error sometimes, like I said it takes some adjusting to fit certain horses. I hope this kind of answers your question. Good luck!!


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Well, what you move them into really depends on the horse. Some horses are very very sensitive and you can only at first use a simple ported mouthpiece. But where it sounds like that horse is very soft, I would see a problem in moving into a half breed. The half breed really is a great bit. I would start just by seeing if the horse will accpet it and carry the bit. Maybe borrow one or something? And ride him in a hack, but put the bit over that hack and just let him get a feel for it. Its kind of trial and error sometimes, like I said it takes some adjusting to fit certain horses. I hope this kind of answers your question. Good luck!!


Thanks! I borrow her's and try it out


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## Wanstrom Horses

*The Spade Set-Up*

I know I've posted a picture of the spade before, but I'll ad one here too. Below is the most commonly seen finished bridle set up. Besides a headstall and spade bit, the "get down set-up" is a common form of equipment. I love the get down and I wont ride without one. The purpose of it is so when the rider dismounts, they dont have to take the romals over the horse's head to lead. This consists of a 1/4" bosalito, a hanger and usually a 16' mohair or mane hair rope. I personally like mohair, its a lot softer and very hardy. 
There is also a form of the get-down called the "badge of honor" or an alamar knot. I attached a picture of that below also. It is a special knot tied around the horse's neck to show that they had graduated out of the two rein and are now a finished bridle horse.


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## COWCHICK77

Nice thread Wanstrom! 

Looking forward to your videos!


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## cowgirl4753

This is so neat! Thanks for sharing this and teaching us. I was looking for a direction with my 2 coming 3 year old and I think I may have found it! This just fascinates me and I look forward to learning more from you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Breezy2011

I am going to use the old western way of breaking my horse. A friend of my parents told me that if I was looking for ways to break my horse, I should tie up a leg and get on, so my horse doesn't buck. He said it is a lot more humane so a horse doesn't get exhausted if you let it buck it out. 

I would personally be interested in some videos too!


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## katieandscooby

Thank you for doing this. I have a love for the vaquero way of life and have always wanted to see a step by step process of making a bridle horse! I will be following this thread very carefully and will probably follow you a bit with my black two year old colt. He would look amazing up in the bridle, as he already looks awesome in slobber straps and a nylon mecate. Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## westerncowgurl

i havent read through the whole thread yet and this might be a dumb question but what is vaquero riding and bridle horse? (or do they mean the same thing) ive never heard those terms befor. and i would love to see videos i love learning about different training styles


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## Wanstrom Horses

Breezy2011 said:


> I am going to use the old western way of breaking my horse. A friend of my parents told me that if I was looking for ways to break my horse, I should tie up a leg and get on, so my horse doesn't buck. He said it is a lot more humane so a horse doesn't get exhausted if you let it buck it out.
> 
> I would personally be interested in some videos too!


I'm glad people are still using the old methods of Horsemanship. I have used that method a few times. It works well for riders that don't like a bucking horse. A friend and I got into a ranch rodeo and rode some broncs lol. Everyone told us we were crazy cuz we were both girls lol ever since then I kinda like bucking a horse out. Anyways just be careful, if the horse goes absolutely bazirk when you put a rope on his foot, let him air out before you step on him, just to avoid him rolling over on you. But other than that, good luck!!


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## Wanstrom Horses

westerncowgurl said:


> i havent read through the whole thread yet and this might be a dumb question but what is vaquero riding and bridle horse? (or do they mean the same thing) ive never heard those terms befor. and i would love to see videos i love learning about different training styles


I replied with this answer to a question very similar to yours in this thread. So I just copied and pasted the answer. Lazy I know lol! Feel free to ask any questions! 

A bridle-horse, so to speak is the finished product of a training form used by a lot of buckaroos and cowboys. It consists of a step by step program using different bits and hackamores to get a horse to the finished stage. Some people say if a horse neck reins, it is a bridle horse. I disagree. My "finished" bridle horses move their entire bodies at the slightest brush of a rein on their neck. My process consits of snaffle to hackamore, hackamore to two-rein, two rein to bridle, maybe adding more steps in their to conform to the horse's needs. Some trainers take it to the extent of changing to certain bits in the moons different stages. I have yet to try it, but its fascinating to me. A finished bridle horse will ride in a spade bit. Like the one I have attached below. It looks harsh, but it is used as a signal bit and rarely does any pressure reach the horses mouth. I hope this kind if explains! Feel free to ask anything. That's why I started this post is to shed a littel light on this form of training.


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## maggiesshowjumping

well considering I have NO idea what a "vaquero bridle horse" is I would be interisted in seeing it... I think the "natural" thing is a little glorifyed and overrated... I have had some people that watched me work with a horse and said along the lines of so I do natural horsemanship? but I really dont see it that way... it is just working with the horse...


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## westerncowgurl

wow that sounds pretty neat! im still learning different ways of training and id love to learn more about it  just one more question  i feel like i should know this haha but what do you mean by 2 rein to bridle? i think i have an idea of what you mean maybe just worded different lol. now im excited about this thread!


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## Wanstrom Horses

westerncowgurl said:


> wow that sounds pretty neat! im still learning different ways of training and id love to learn more about it  just one more question  i feel like i should know this haha but what do you mean by 2 rein to bridle? i think i have an idea of what you mean maybe just worded different lol. now im excited about this thread!


I'll just post a pic of a horse in the "two rein" stage. Basically its making a transition between a hackamore to a bridle bit, using both set-ups at the same time.


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## Spirit Lifter

Great thread. I'll be following. I wish you were closer as I think my horse has the right build and mind for a ranch horse No good trainers in our remote area.


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## westerncowgurl

ok ive heard of that! lol cant wait to see the videos


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## Wanstrom Horses

And thanks again for everyone's interest!! Saturday morning we will be sorting pairs and doctoring a few calves that just came in for winter. I will be using three different horses to post in this thread. One in a hackamore, one in a two rein and one in a bridle so everyone can get an idea of how the horses and equipment works. Thanks again!!


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## flytobecat

Wanstrom Horses said:


> . The mare was previously ridden in a long shank snaffle. I then moved her into a correction bit, then into a two rein with a half-breed mouthpiece. Granted I had to adjust my program. I never use correction bits on my bridle horses I start from the ground, but in this mare's case that is what I needed to do. I then worked from a two rein and she is now push-button and straight up in a spade bit. It took a good four months to get her to that point though. The biggest challenge with retraining a horse to be a bridle horse is to figure out where you need to pick up and start the bridle-making process. If the horse has been ridden in a snaffle it's entire life, then picking up at the hackamore stage would probably be best, or for instance a horse can be ridden in a ported bit, then you could probably pick up at the two rein stage. higher than most horses, but she is one of my most favorite horses to ride, just the slightest touch of the rein on her neck and she will move her whole body.


Can you post a picture of the correction bit you are referring too?
Also, what is different about the long shank snaffle compared to the ported bit that would make you need the correction bit?
Thanks!


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## Wanstrom Horses

flytobecat said:


> Can you post a picture of the correction bit you are referring too?
> Also, what is different about the long shank snaffle compared to the ported bit that would make you need the correction bit?
> Thanks!


I moved her out of a long shank snaffle because a snaffle puts zero pressure on the poll or jaw. And the horse had never had a port in her mouth. I figure a correction bit would be best because it still have some movement and lateral flexion, but it also prepared her palate for a larger mouthpiece and a ported bit. A bit like below is one very similair to the one I use.


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## flytobecat

Thanks for explaining


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## Wanstrom Horses

Welcome!! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fourleggedfriendly

Thanks for sharing! Looking forward to your videos!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GotaDunQH

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I moved her out of a long shank snaffle because a snaffle puts zero pressure on the poll or jaw. And the horse had never had a port in her mouth. I figure a correction bit would be best because it still have some movement and lateral flexion, but it also prepared her palate for a larger mouthpiece and a ported bit. A bit like below is one very similair to the one I use.


I ride and show in a correction bit like this. I ride in a couple different bits, I don't use the same one everyday, but all of them have ports. The term "correction" really has nothing to do with "correcting" anything...it's a very popular western ported bit.


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## 66Domino

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Hi everyone!! I know I'm new to the forum, but looking through here, all I see is natural horsemanship stuff. Not that I have anything against it, but I was wondering if anyone would enjoy a timeline on making a vaquero bridle horse. I have a two year old filly that we just run off the range with some other colts, every year I choose a two year old to start and make a bridle horse. Just wanted to see if anyone would be interested in watching some videos on ground training, problem solving, and bridle work. It's a lot different than natural horsemanship. Let me know and I'll start filming!!


If you're talking about a modified approach to the vaquero method go for it. If you're referring to old school vaquero method, no thanks. We don't force our horses or leave their faces bloodied at the end of a training session. This Arizona woman has had her fill of vaquero methods.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wanstrom Horses

66Domino said:


> If you're talking about a modified approach to the vaquero method go for it. If you're referring to old school vaquero method, no thanks. We don't force our horses or leave their faces bloodied at the end of a training session. This Arizona woman has had her fill of vaquero methods.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course a modified vaquero method. I wouldn't call blooding a horses mouth a method. I would call that "primitive force". All you get with "primitive force" is wary, scared horses with iron mouths. There is a sheep camp a little ways from my place, where men from Chile use "primitive force" methods to break a few horses to ride on the sheep camp. After a year of riding, I get all these horses, and sometimes they are unreachable. I've seen wire hobbles and scarred mouths. A few you can restart from the ground, granted they are very gentle due to all their miles, but as far as a handle goes, you might as well be trying to turn an anvil. Most i give away to homes wanting pasture buddies or the occasional lead line horse. That's what gives vaquero riding a bad name.


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## egrogan

This is all fascinating, but a completely different world to me. You've talked a lot about how to train a horse to this style of riding- but it seems like training a _rider_ in these methods would require just as much time and patience. I'm assuming that after being trained to be so light, you don't just hand one of these horses off to anyone. So how do you ensure a good partner for a successful bridle horse? 

As an aside, I've said this on other threads, but I so love this Forum because I truly do learn something new about horses every day. This is my new knowledge for today!


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## Wanstrom Horses

egrogan said:


> This is all fascinating, but a completely different world to me. You've talked a lot about how to train a horse to this style of riding- but it seems like training a _rider_ in these methods would require just as much time and patience. I'm assuming that after being trained to be so light, you don't just hand one of these horses off to anyone. So how do you ensure a good partner for a successful bridle horse?
> 
> As an aside, I've said this on other threads, but I so love this Forum because I truly do learn something new about horses every day. This is my new knowledge for today!


And yes, these horses take a very very light handed rider. This is a problem I run into quite regularly. Someone will send me their horse so I can make it a bridle horse. They do it a lot of the time because a bridle horse looks neat. Then I end up having to buy the horse or give them lessons because they do not know how to ride it. Or someone will come out wanting to buy a "cowboy horse". They claim they have done their research and know how to ride one. I make them ride the horse at my place to see if they really know what they are doing before they buy. Most don't so I just advise them to look else where. As with anything, a spade bit in the wrong hands can be destructive to not only a horses previous training but also to their mouth. Every summer, I teach riding lessons to a few kids, ages 5-14. When they begin, I don't let them ride the bridle horses. They ride my hackamore horses to get a feel for the horse without having the destructive power of the spade, then they work up from there with the horses in their training. But to answer your question, a finished bridle horse really can be riddled in anything due to being so light. If starting out on a finished bridle horse, I would step down to maybe a basic mild curb bit. Then you make a few learning mistakes without causing the horse pain or ruining previous training. Then just practice practice practice. Practice on being very light, watch experienced vaquero riders, maybe on YouTube. Watch their hands, their seat, practice keeping you whole body, shoulders, hips, feet, aligned with the horse at all times. Like any other discipline, practice is they key. The horse knows what to do.


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## CanyonCowboy

subbing


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## 66Domino

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Of course a modified vaquero method. I wouldn't call blooding a horses mouth a method. I would call that "primitive force". All you get with "primitive force" is wary, scared horses with iron mouths. There is a sheep camp a little ways from my place, where men from Chile use "primitive force" methods to break a few horses to ride on the sheep camp. After a year of riding, I get all these horses, and sometimes they are unreachable. I've seen wire hobbles and scarred mouths. A few you can restart from the ground, granted they are very gentle due to all their miles, but as far as a handle goes, you might as well be trying to turn an anvil. Most i give away to homes wanting pasture buddies or the occasional lead line horse. That's what gives vaquero riding a bad name.


Thanks, I am interested in anything that builds but does not tear down or break a horse's spirit. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wanstrom Horses

*Parts of The "Spade" Bit*

Good day everyone. Once again, I apologize. The weather has me in the house once again. 10 below is way to cold to do ground work and I'm a baby, I hate cold! Lol. So to keep you all interested I figured I would post different parts of bridle bits today. Below is a diagram of a Spade bit. Once again, I apologize for my crooked arrows, I'm terrible at Paint!!


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## COWCHICK77

You could also do a post explaining cavvy marks,
Ya know, in your spare time


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## Wanstrom Horses

COWCHICK77 said:


> You could also do a post explaining cavvy marks,
> Ya know, in your spare time


Great idea. I didn't even think about explaining that. Just something I kind of do automatically. "oh I'm starting this horse, *snip snip*" I'll get on that


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## Wanstrom Horses

THanks to Cowchick's Idea, I'm switching gears to explain "cavvy marks". The term "cavvy marks" refers to different cuts of mane on the horse's withers to show what stage of the bridle process the horse is in. So if you were to walk out into some one else's string, your could tell how to ride each horse by looking at their mane. 

Mane clipped completely off the withers- Horse is either in a snaffle or a hackamore

Mane clipped off withers with two tufts of long hair- Horse is riding in a two rein

Mane clipped off withers with one long tuft of hair- Horse is a finished bridle horse

Ive attached pictures to give a better understanding. Few people still do this. I do because many people ride my horses and I hate all that man on the witheres balling up under my saddle pad.


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## jaydee

So interesting - I actually clip the mane off my horses withers too - for neatness though
I have to admit that as a Brit used to very tame english bits I am kind of shrinking back at some of the ones you are showing us - of course this is when educating the horse slowly is vital as is a rider having super light hands I imagine


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## thesilverspear

Surely all of this should have the caveat that, while fascinating and educational, it should not be tried at home unless you are already an accomplished rider or under guidance from a knowledgeable trainer. While I understand the objective of a signal bit, I doubt that your average ammie rider (and that includes me) has the hands or seat to be allowed within a mile of one of those spade bits.


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## thesilverspear

I also don't think anyone should be *encouraged* to start a horse by tying up one of its front legs. Just because some "old school" cowboys did it doesn't make it a good idea. They had many ideas (often regarding the treatment of women) that were less than ethical. 

No amount of money could convince me to sit on a horse (and I have started a few) that had one of its legs tied up -- I could think of worse ideas, but not many.


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## Skunkworks

I'd almost consider it at the same level of upper dressage. Love this thread though, I think outside the world of true working ranch horses, not a lot of people have heard of this method or what it's suppose to be about. They just see the spade bit and go :shock:.


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## Wanstrom Horses

thesilverspear said:


> I also don't think anyone should be *encouraged* to start a horse by tying up one of its front legs. Just because some "old school" cowboys did it doesn't make it a good idea. They had many ideas (often regarding the treatment of women) that were less than ethical.
> 
> No amount of money could convince me to sit on a horse (and I have started a few) that had one of its legs tied up -- I could think of worse ideas, but not many.


In my method the horses leg isnt tied up to itself. another rider on another horse has a lariat rope around the horse that is getting started foot. then i would get on the unstarted horse. when the horse began to buck my "co rider" would take some dallies and pull the horses foot off the ground therefore disabling the horse to buck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thesilverspear

It still sounds like a recipe for a Darwin Award to me. There is always the possibility of training your horse and getting it accustomed to things on its back before you get on it so it's less likely to try to buck you off in the first place, but hey ho, that's just how I like to do things.

In any case, to not die or kill your horse, both you and your helper surely have to be well educated with pretty bloody good timing, neither of which is an assumption which I'd make of random people on an internet forum. Hence, further addendums to the "don't try this at home" caveat.


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## GotaDunQH

thesilverspear said:


> Surely all of this should have the caveat that, while fascinating and educational, it should not be tried at home unless you are already an accomplished rider or under guidance from a knowledgeable trainer. While I understand the objective of a signal bit, I doubt that your average ammie rider (and that includes me) has the hands or seat to be allowed within a mile of one of those spade bits.


If you are well schooled in western...and not just "wannabee" western, you do understand how a ported bit should be used and how to use one. I've ridden in some big bits...I showed my WP horse in this bit quite a few times:











His usual show bit:









And Ive used this for schooling...with the nickname "tire tool" bit (taller port though):









And this for schooling (a lifter):









And the show bit I used last year, was a custom made silver bit by Chuck Letchworth (who I know). He makes some MIGHTY fine bits!

The point is, IF you are familar with bits like these...and have a horse trained to pack one, using a cathedral or higher port spoon as some of the ones shown by the OP, you understand how to use your hand and how NOT to use your hand. I show as an amateur in AQHA, so an educated amateur is well-versed in big bits knows the mechanics. The slightest raise of the hand, sets the bit into motion by rotating on the tongue and the horse knows. And the slightest raise could only be an inch as they horse feels the reins move, even on a drape.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Well that is your opinion. ive been doing this my whole life, i make a living riding horses. that all i do. i know what works for me making a nice bridle horse and a lifetime working partner. maybe you disagree with my methods which is fine. but it is hardly ethical to say something is "unethical" before someone even trys it. im asking only for open minds in this thread, i will share my methods even if some think it is wrong. im not advising people to just pop a spade bit in their horses mouths, but rather im sharing in this thread how to reach that point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thesilverspear

GotaDunQH said:


> If you are well schooled in western...and not just "wannabee" western, you do understand how a ported bit should be used and how to use one. I've ridden in some big bits...I showed my WP horse in this bit quite a few times:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His usual show bit:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Ive used this for schooling...with the nickname "tire tool" bit (taller port though):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this for schooling (a lifter):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the show bit I used last year, was a custom made silver bit by Chuck Letchworth (who I know). He makes some MIGHTY fine bits!
> 
> The point is, IF you are familar with bits like these...and have a horse trained to pack one, using a cathedral or higher port spoon as some of the ones shown by the OP, you understand how to use your hand and how NOT to use your hand. I show as an amateur in AQHA, so an educated amateur is well-versed in big bits knows the mechanics. The slightest raise of the hand, sets the bit into motion by rotating on the tongue and the horse knows. And the slightest raise could only be an inch as they horse feels the reins move, even on a drape.


Well, that's the point, isn't it? In my experience, Joe Bloggs horse owner is unlikely to be well schooled enough in a western discipline to use those bits.


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## GotaDunQH

^ yes, and I know what you meant, but when you said "amateur", I ride and show as an amateur. The person next door who trail rides and hacks around may not know, but an educated amateur would. It just comes down to what you mean by "amateur".


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## COWCHICK77

thesilverspear said:


> It still sounds like a recipe for a Darwin Award to me. There is always the possibility of training your horse and getting it accustomed to things on its back before you get on it so it's less likely to try to buck you off in the first place, but hey ho, that's just how I like to do things.
> 
> In any case, to not die or kill your horse, both you and your helper surely have to be well educated with pretty bloody good timing, neither of which is an assumption which I'd make of random people on an internet forum. Hence, further addendums to the "don't try this at home" caveat.


Having a rope on a hind foot is no different really than using a halter as a form of restraint. The horse learns to give to it just like they learn to give to a halter.
When using a hind foot rope you want to make sure that guy is handy, it is crucial that they have can read a horse as to know when to dally and when to pop them. Much like some one ponying you on your first ride.


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## Wanstrom Horses

thesilverspear said:


> It still sounds like a recipe for a Darwin Award to me. There is always the possibility of training your horse and getting it accustomed to things on its back before you get on it so it's less likely to try to buck you off in the first place, but hey ho, that's just how I like to do things.
> 
> In any case, to not die or kill your horse, both you and your helper surely have to be well educated with pretty bloody good timing, neither of which is an assumption which I'd make of random people on an internet forum. Hence, further addendums to the "don't try this at home" caveat.


And my colts are taught to pick up their feet using a rope and are hobble broke before I even start saddle training. Therefore they yield to a rope already. There is a lot more to this that I think you realize.


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## soenjer55

I live in Tucson/ Marana Arizona, so trust me when I say that I've seen some horrible abuse from riders who hide behind the name 'vaquero'. Basically, I knew that the style itself wasn't horrible but I felt that I was never actually going to see someone who didn't misuse it.
I was very skeptical when I started reading this, but now I'm purely fascinated- you sound like a truly respectable and knowledgeable horseman, and I am looking forward to the continuation of this thread. I like what I'm reading, and I like your methods- I do not like pure natural horsemanship, and personally feel that the best method is a conglomerate of all of the methods, picked and chosen in accordance with the individual horse. I do tend to lean more towards the old school methods, though, like the ones which you use. Overall I have as much respect for you as is possible to develop through reading a thread on a forum, lol.
Anyway, I'm excited to follow your process and progress with this young horse, who I think is quite lovely.


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## soenjer55

And, to add in my own two cents, I think it would take considerable lack of any form of common sense to try any style of training/ riding after reading one thread on a forum. If someone decides to do that, it is their folly and not on the shoulders of the OP- although I do think that this could have done with a 'don't try this at home without a professional, kids!' there's no need to worry, because that disclaimer is now in multiple comments and will not be missed by any of the readers.


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## Muppetgirl

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Well that is your opinion. ive been doing this my whole life, i make a living riding horses. that all i do. i know what works for me making a nice bridle horse and a lifetime working partner. maybe you disagree with my methods which is fine. but it is hardly ethical to say something is "unethical" before someone even trys it. im asking only for open minds in this thread, i will share my methods even if some think it is wrong. im not advising people to just pop a spade bit in their horses mouths, but rather im sharing in this thread how to reach that point.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Keep sharing your hard earned knowledge, I certainly understand and appreciate the skill it takes to make a bridle horse. People pay big dollars for this knowledge....Infact experience cannot be paid for.


To the nay-sayers:
Ps. I've seen world class dressage horses started with leg ropes and hobbles....gasp....yes.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Muppetgirl said:


> Keep sharing your hard earned knowledge, I certainly understand and appreciate the skill it takes to make a bridle horse. People pay big dollars for this knowledge....Infact experience cannot be paid for.
> 
> 
> To the nay-sayers:
> Ps. I've seen world class dressage horses started with leg ropes and hobbles....gasp....yes.


Haha thanks! Like I stated before, I'm not encouraging anyone to do pop a spade bit in their horses mouth, I'm just sharing methods. I just find it irksome that claim these methods unethical without knowledge of how they work. But everyone is entitled to their opinion. I will also be doing videos on all of these ground methods too so everyone, no matter how skeptical can understand a little better. Thank you Muppetgirl and thank you everyone for you comments, likes and general interest in this thread.


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## BBBCrone

Please keep on! I'm loving this. I don't have enough knowledge to use these types of bits but I am loving learning about all of this.


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## rookie

This is interesting and I am learning a lot. I will probably (99.99% sure) I will never use it on my own horse, then again I will probably never use latin but I learned that in school. 

My thought is more about ropes used to hold up legs. I was under the impression that it all depends on the type of rope, where the rope is applied and timing. I have some some really stiff (and poorly made) "lariats" sold to tourists that will cause serious harm if applied with any strength to a horse's legs. Likewise, I was also under the impression, from an equine rescue seminar, that where you apply the ropes (which parts of the leg) also dictate the risk of injury. Its about tools, spurs, riding crops, rope halters, twitches, chain shanks etc can all be harmful if used without prudence or by those who are heavy handed or have no clue what they are doing. 

My question is do you have a preferred set of equipment and do you ever get 1/2 way through training and find that a horse is just not designed for the task?


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## Wanstrom Horses

rookie said:


> This is interesting and I am learning a lot. I will probably (99.99% sure) I will never use it on my own horse, then again I will probably never use latin but I learned that in school.
> 
> My thought is more about ropes used to hold up legs. I was under the impression that it all depends on the type of rope, where the rope is applied and timing. I have some some really stiff (and poorly made) "lariats" sold to tourists that will cause serious harm if applied with any strength to a horse's legs. Likewise, I was also under the impression, from an equine rescue seminar, that where you apply the ropes (which parts of the leg) also dictate the risk of injury. Its about tools, spurs, riding crops, rope halters, twitches, chain shanks etc can all be harmful if used without prudence or by those who are heavy handed or have no clue what they are doing.
> 
> My question is do you have a preferred set of equipment and do you ever get 1/2 way through training and find that a horse is just not designed for the task?


Excellent question rookie. And I do agree, all equipment, even a simple halter can be harmful to a horse, if used in the wrong hands or in the wrong way. And yes, in most cases "cheaper equipment" can be more dangerous. I have a select set of equipment that I use. Actually I have a train boxcar full of tack and saddles, lol. But for the most part I use a good continuos one piece rope halter with a tie on 16' lead. (I tie these myself), a 20', 2" diameter soft cotton rope, cotton hobbles, leather hobbles and rawhide hobbles (I train horses with them in a step-up system), a 3/8" four strand poly ranch rope or a 3/8" four strand nylon scant ranch rope both with a tie Honda and a rawhide burner, usually 55' long, a good wool saddle pad, a wade saddle, silver buckaroo spurs, mohair cinch, a mecate bridle, a good hackamore bridle, a good two rein setup, a spade bridle setup, and a get down set up. A good wade saddle with oxbow stirrups is essential for me for the first few rides, then I can move to bell stirrups. And with that list of equipment I can completely ground train and break a horse to the bridle. How that kind of explains what you were looking for. 
And for your next question. I have run into horses that weren't going to make bridle horses a couple times. I found this out moving them into the two rein. After countless days, even weeks and trying to get the horse to carry and respond to a bridle bit, I just let them stay in the hackamore stage and just be hackamore horses. I own a blue roan Hancock stud, actually that filly that is my project for this thread's sire, that would not carry a bridle bit. I let him just be a hackamore horse, I didn't force a Spade bit on him, I just finished his training and worked on a handle in a hackamore. Don't get me wrong I so wished I could have made him into a bridle horse, but he handles and works just as well in a hackamore. The horses still can be good working ranch horses even if they absolutely won't make bridle horses.m


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## Wanstrom Horses

Sheesh.. Just read through that. Sorry for all the typos, I'm doing this off an iPad lol.


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## deserthorsewoman

Will you explain the saddles and other tack, too or only the different head gear?
Im dying to see some nice Wade saddles;-) and I would have some questions too


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## CessBee

Amazing thread, I love it. Definitely will be watching and reading with interest.

I think if someone were to have the lack of common sense which led to them just putting a spade bit in and think they can just go would probably do something like that regardless. Those who think they know everything just from reading a forum thread and watching a few videos would probably be making training mistakes regardless.

I think what is the most important part of ANY training method is that you should work for the individual horse, not just say "I seen this guy do this and he's famous for training horses, I'll do what he does and I'll have a good horse".

Each horse is an individual and should be treated as such and have his/her training altered to suit.


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## Wanstrom Horses

deserthorsewoman said:


> Will you explain the saddles and other tack, too or only the different head gear?
> Im dying to see some nice Wade saddles;-) and I would have some questions too


Gladly! I will post a few pictures of the saddles I use. Just got a new one actually!  I have three main saddles that I use mostly, the others are backups. I'll attach some pictures. Not every may know what a wade saddle is. 

Below, I've added a few pictures of a couple wade saddles that I use. The first two pictures are of my older saddle. Deffinatly one of my favorites. I've put countless miles and hours in it with no pain or sores to both me and my horses. It has a 4x4 inch post horn, 4 inch cantle with a cheyenne roll. FQHBs. Love this saddle!! The second saddle is a new one I just got, have yet to throw it on a horse. It is cable rigged, and is supposed to fit a broader variety of horses. Really a beauty and very very well made. Six inch Churro horn, FQHBs, 5 inch cantle.


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## Muppetgirl

I've got to ask, what is the tassel hanging down under the girth?.....I always thought it was a fly swatter


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## Wanstrom Horses

Actually you are correct. It swats annoying belly flies. I call is a shoo-fly.


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## Muppetgirl

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Actually you are correct. It swats annoying belly flies. I call is a shoo-fly.


Oh! Haha! It's a good idea! Thanks!


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## Wanstrom Horses

*First Transition To A Hackamore.*

Stumbled upon some pictures taken of a paint that I was hired to start and get to the hackamore stage. This was the first day I transitioned into a hackamore. And it was a fight. I thought I would share this to show how a horse eventually "softens up" to a bosal. 

1st picture- When I first asked the horse to turn after moving off from a standstill. You can see she doesnt quite understand and is not responding to the bosal just by her facial expressions. Her head is straight out, she is not flexing her poll, she is basically ignoring the entire set up and all my cues. She is also "quite humpy" and did buck quite a bit with me at first. 

2nd Picture- This was snapped in between bucks lol. Ignore my determined facial expression. She still is not responding and being just a butt! 

3rd Picture- She is starting to accept it, still high headed and not flexing very well, but begining to respond and understand the hackamore cues. 

4th Picture- Starting to drop her head and come into her turns. Becoming lighter in the face as just seconds go by. Really starting to "get" the concept. 

5th & 6th Picture- Relaxed and undersatnding cues. Nice set to her head for a first ride in the hackamore. Overall a very nice progress for just a 90 minute ride. A very smart little horse! 

Hope this gives an idea on the transitions and how they go. And kinda to prove that I actually ride and not just sit on this forum! Lol


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## deserthorsewoman

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Gladly! I will post a few pictures of the saddles I use. Just got a new one actually!  I have three main saddles that I use mostly, the others are backups. I'll attach some pictures. Not every may know what a wade saddle is.
> 
> Below, I've added a few pictures of a couple wade saddles that I use. The first two pictures are of my older saddle. Deffinatly one of my favorites. I've put countless miles and hours in it with no pain or sores to both me and my horses. It has a 4x4 inch post horn, 4 inch cantle with a cheyenne roll. FQHBs. Love this saddle!! The second saddle is a new one I just got, have yet to throw it on a horse. It is cable rigged, and is supposed to fit a broader variety of horses. Really a beauty and very very well made. Six inch Churro horn, FQHBs, 5 inch cantle.


 Drooling here;-)
The saddle on the paint is a different one, I see? Like that one a lot. What's it, 5" cantle? It seems to be short, too. 
I've been looking at dozens of Wade's but they all were 27, 28" skirts. Having an ultra shortbacked horse, I can't see myself getting one....or I would have to change horses, lol


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## deserthorsewoman

Uhm...maybe it's not different after all...I looked only at the last two pics, it looks short and round....duh;-). My fault.....


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## Wanstrom Horses

deserthorsewoman said:


> Drooling here;-)
> The saddle on the paint is a different one, I see? Like that one a lot. What's it, 5" cantle? It seems to be short, too.
> I've been looking at dozens of Wade's but they all were 27, 28" skirts. Having an ultra shortbacked horse, I can't see myself getting one....or I would have to change horses, lol


Actually that is a different saddle. And it's for sale!!


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## Army wife

I have a question, why do you like oxbow stirrups on your first few rides? I believe I read that correctly. I've never liked them personally, and I was just wondering today why people would like them lol. I love this thread. Keep it up. Can't wait to see videos!


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## BellaMFT

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Actually you are correct. It swats annoying belly flies. I call is a shoo-fly.


I love these. I keep meaning to buy a couple for my saddles but I keep forgetting. These thread is terrific. Thanks for sharing your training approach. It's always nice to learn something new.


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## flytobecat

Also, can you explain the advantage of moving a horse from a hackamore to a spade.
If the horse is doing fine in the hack why move into the spade?


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## Wanstrom Horses

Army wife said:


> I have a question, why do you like oxbow stirrups on your first few rides? I believe I read that correctly. I've never liked them personally, and I was just wondering today why people would like them lol. I love this thread. Keep it up. Can't wait to see videos!


Well, when I first start a horse, I pile a lot onto them in the first few rides as far as training goes. 9 out of 10 times the horse will try and buck me off in the first few rides. Many people that bring me horses to start want 30 rides in 30 days and the horses usually have very little ground work, so anything, like first roping, the fringe on my armitas, etc can send them into a bucking fit. With oxbows, I can keep me feet set and not blow a stirrup as easily as with bells. And if I do get bucked off, I can roll my foot out of them a lot easier.


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## Wanstrom Horses

flytobecat said:


> Also, can you explain the advantage of moving a horse from a hackamore to a spade.
> If the horse is doing fine in the hack why move into the spade?


The level of "lightness" can't really be achieved with a hackamore as with a spade, granted the horse rides as well, but they really just don't handle as well. The way a spade sets in the mouth, just the slightest movement of the reins sends a message to the horse. With a hackamore, you just really don't get that kind of connection.


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## HighonEquine

You may eventually cover this later on in the thread, but when you are at the Snaffle stage, what do you expect the horse to be doing before you move the horse up into the next stage? My horse has gone in a snaffle I think his entire life. I wonder what exactly he should be capable of what I would accomplish further by moving up a bit. Do you go hackamore after snaffle? Or am I skipping a bit?


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## Wanstrom Horses

HighonEquine said:


> You may eventually cover this later on in the thread, but when you are at the Snaffle stage, what do you expect the horse to be doing before you move the horse up into the next stage? My horse has gone in a snaffle I think his entire life. I wonder what exactly he should be capable of what I would accomplish further by moving up a bit. Do you go hackamore after snaffle? Or am I skipping a bit?


I will cover this in videos when the weather gets better lol. But I will explain now kinda what I like a horse to be doing.mand this will differ between riders and what they will be using there horses for. I want a horse to walk, trot and lope both ways on a loose rein, roll around themselves pretty nice, have a collected stop, back up. I also want to be able to rope a calf, tie off, step off, doctor and have the horse hold the rope tight. When they get into a two rein, i like to be able to click them forward and back to loosen and tighten the rope, but I will explain that better later. I tend to do a lot of cow work in that first 30 days, long saddle days and a lot of cow work will keep a horses mind fresh and get them to learn the fastest way to roll around themselves to keep up with a cow. Then I'll move them into a hackamore.


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## Wanstrom Horses

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ian McDonald

I am digging this thread. You're really covering a lot of material. A lot of it I've heard before, but a lot of it is new! 

Couple questions. What are your thoughts on the half-breed mouthpiece compared to the spade as far as the ultimate quality of the horse's handle? Also, how long to you ride a horse (on average) from the start to being straight in the bridle? And as a second part to that question, how does that length of time compare when you're riding your own horse versus one that you're riding for someone else?


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## Wanstrom Horses

I run across some slideshows and videos while I was listening to music on youtube. Thought I'd share them, they really dont have much to do with horse training, but they do share a insight on the way of life. The term "vaquero" isnt just a style for training and riding horses. Its a lifestyle and a culture all in its own. It how many make a living and show pride in a forgotten way of life. Sorry this if slightly "off topic" but I hope you all enjoy! 

Vaquero Fiesta 2009 ...Host Richard Caldwell - YouTube

The Vaquero - YouTube

Buckaroogirl Adrian sings Old Time Vaquero - YouTube

Vaquero Bridle Horse Sale - YouTube
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elizabeth Bowers

Subbing! This would be some awesome techniques to watch!!


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## Wanstrom Horses

Ian McDonald said:


> I am digging this thread. You're really covering a lot of material. A lot of it I've heard before, but a lot of it is new!
> 
> Couple questions. What are your thoughts on the half-breed mouthpiece compared to the spade as far as the ultimate quality of the horse's handle? Also, how long to you ride a horse (on average) from the start to being straight in the bridle? And as a second part to that question, how does that length of time compare when you're riding your own horse versus one that you're riding for someone else?


Boy, you people are good at questions, lol  The half-breed has a lot different feel that the spade. You can tell that just by holding the bit. The spade is heavier and there are a lot more signal points to it than that of a half breed. The half breed is still kind of a direct leverage bit. Although it takes a very soft hand, the bit is still a direct pressure bit. Its lays pressure on the bars and the poll through direct cues from the riders hands. Where as the spade different signals feed through to different places on the bit. For example, a stop cue in a spade bit lays pressure on the jaw and chinstrap, where a turn signal feeds through to the side arm braces and puts pressure on the tongue. In a half breed, the cues are a lot less complicated. If that makes sense, I'm kinda having a hard time putting this into words, but I'll show it in a video. In a spade, the cues are a lot softer than an half breed. The horse must learn to follow the slightest signal from the rider. The half breed teaches handle, but the spade teached refinement. A horse is so much lighter in a spade. Feather soft cues are the only signals needed, where as a half breed rides more like a cathedral mouthpiece or a correction bit in some ways. I hope this is kinda what you were looking for. As far as a time frame for the length it takes to make a bridle horse, it varys. Some horses pick it up very quickly while other take a slightly longer time. On average 2-3 years from start to finish if staring a horse from the ground. 30 days in a snaffle, a year in a hackamore and a year to two years in a two rein, then another 30 days in transitioning from a two rein to a spade. Whether I own the horse or not, the time frame is the same. Although some owners dont want their horses gone that long. In that case, I will get a horse to a certain point, like in the hackamore stage, I will teach the owner how to handle the horse and send them off to ride them for a year. Then when it is time for the horse to move into a two rein, they will bring the horse back to me to ride for a few months and so on. I hope this answers your questions kind of. Sorry for typos! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boots

I apologize if you've already answered this, and it's a bit off the main topic, but, who the maker of your cable-rigged wood?


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## hberrie

I actually just read through this entire thread and found it truly fascinating! I don't know anything about this stuff, but I do know a guy who is a Lakota indian and he breaks his horses using an "indian hackamore" which looks similar to the Bosal, but is made entirely of rope, not rawhide. It is bitless and has like a big knot that is under the lower jaw. Is this the same type of training method?


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## mirage790

*I'm new and follow the old california vaquero riding/training.*

Just joined the forum to join this thread. I'm a real Brannaman fan and have all his DVDs. Was hoping to go to my first clinic with him this coming fall but by the time sign up was open it was already filled by the boarders at the barn, so may have to settle for auditing. I'm also hoping to get adopt a mustang from the BLM within the next years or two since my current horse is now 31 and semi-retired, although still going strong. I didn't know exactly what I was dong with him, so his training has several gaps in it, but with a new horse I would go a LOT slower and make sure it's correct. I'd love to see any video you may have on old vaquero training. :lol:


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## RunSlideStop

Excellent thread! Really learning so much!

Q: For someone who doesn't intend to work cattle and/or does not have access to cattle, what would you recommend they do in that first 30 days instead? Assuming a horse is not being used daily as a ranch horse, what kind of time period would you say they should go in the snaffle for, if they are strictly "arena-bound" so to speak?

Great stuff!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wanstrom Horses

Ok, I'm having a hell of a time with this multi quote thing, I may know a little about bridle horses, but running this forum is giving me fits!! Any help on this would be much appreciated lol, cuz I'm an idiot. Anyways I'm gonna have to do it this way. 

Boots, LaPorte is the maker of that cable rigged saddle tree, probably the toughest saddle trees around. Stetson Webber made the saddle. 

Hberrie, that form of bosal is more like a bitless bridle, the knot under the chin slides with pressure of the rein. I've never used one, so i don't know how well they would work, but it is a different sort of method. I'm not very familiar with it, so I can't tell you much. 

RunSlideStop, in my experiences, I've never not had cattle to work horses on. I think strictly "arena bound" is very detrimental to a horses "sanity" so to speak. It's like us eating the exact same thing over and over For three years. They get bored, really bored and then irritated and then disrespectful. Where I haven't been in that situation, I'm not really one to say. I don't say I know things until I've been there done that lol. I would recommend do area work, work on rollbacks, work the horse on a fence, practice spins, stops, etc. but also get your horse out. Even if it's just riding around the yard, driveway, down the road, or even around the outside of the arena. Horses thrive off new experiences, so much can be learned outside the arena than people really give it credit for. This not only builds a willingness, but also teaches a horse to deal with situations outside the arena. A bridle horse can be made anywhere. It's really a matter of patience, quietness, softness and a relationship. If after three years of riding to make a bridle horse and you don't have a relationship with that horse, something went wrong a long while back.


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## mirage790

I'm still learning my way round this forum myself.  Is there a way to reply directly to a specific post right where that post is or is everything new just a reply to the thread and posted at the end of the line? And how the heck to I put a picture on my horse on here? 


Wanstrom Horses, I like your honesty about admitting when you don't know a piece or equipment or about another training style. Thanks, I appreciate that! A lot of people wouldn't do that and to sound like an expert, they would either just fake it or cut it down because it wasn't their style.


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## mirage790

*Oh DUH!*

Oh...OK, I just found my "Welcome to the Forum" message from the administrator... never mind answering my posting questions :wink:


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## JoesMom

Have enjoyed reading up on this thread. Many of your methods are familiar to me as an old neighbor of mine trained Bridle horses. What river gorge is behind your round corral? I see lava fields in the background so am curious where in Idaho you are from.


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## Wanstrom Horses

JoesMom said:


> Have enjoyed reading up on this thread. Many of your methods are familiar to me as an old neighbor of mine trained Bridle horses. What river gorge is behind your round corral? I see lava fields in the background so am curious where in Idaho you are from.


That's the salmon falls creek canyon. I grew up around the Twin Falls Area, but I got married and am in the process of moving to the Arco/Mackay area. Either way, I'm stuck in lava fields, lol. I have to have shoes on my horses 24/7.


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## Wanstrom Horses

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wanstrom Horses

Hey everybody! Bad weather again today  I apologoze for no videos yet. With the forecast, it looks like it will only get colder  17 below today. But anyways, I was wondering if anyone would be interested in me going over some other equipment besides headgear. Like other rawhide stuff, quirts, reatas, ropes, spurs, saddles, clothing (like what is usually worn to ranch rodeos) etc. Or if anyone has other suggestions or questions. I gotta try and keep everyone interested! Lol 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mirage790

Whew, I finally had the time to read through the entire thread. And what a thread it is! It's AWESOME! Thank you for starting it. All the information you have given has been so inspiring and your explanations of how and why are most appreciated!

I also read the other thread on Bridle Horses and realized there are a lot of people who have a lot of misconceptions about what exactly it is. Like I said before, I have Buck Brannaman's bridle horse training DVDs and at the end of the one on the finished bridle horse, to show how they actually do everything off the seat and legs, and not the hands, he removes the horses bridle and rides it through circles, flying chances, ect. without the bridle! Now that's my idea of a finished bridle horse...totally control without a bridle! :lol:


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## Wanstrom Horses

Thanks!! Glad you enjoyed what I've tried to explain so far. And yes I agree, one finished, a bridle horse can be ridden in anything, and it's a great feeling to train a horse to reach that point. I like the patina a spade bit gives though


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## Wanstrom Horses

*Bridle Gear Mechanics: Tongue Relief??*

I believe the word tongue relief is an overused term in the bridle horse world. Actually for a spade bit, tongue relief is more of a hindering and uncomfortable factor to the horse. Imagine lifting a barbell with a crooked handle, where all the pressure is left on one place on your hand? It would be a lot harder than just a simple straight bar, wouldn't it? Its the same concept with the horse and the spade bit. A good bridle horse "braces" against the bit with his tongue to help carry the bit and balance it in his mouth. But the tongue relief mouthpiece makes it very diffcult for the horse to "carry" the bit. The first picture is of a traditional spade with a straight-bar mouthpiece. The second shows a spade with a tongue relief mouthpiece. By just looking at the bits, you would think the second is a much milder, gentler bit. Actually, it is not. That bit is very hard for a horse to carry, and makes the horse focus on "holding" the bit rather than the riders cues. In my opinion, a spade with tongue relief shouldnt be classified as a spade at all, more of a mona lisa type mouthpiece instead.


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## Wanstrom Horses

*Bridle Gear Mechanics: That Little Copper Roller??*

I get asked a lot, what does the little roller do on the top of the spade in a spade bit? Many people think rollers are just so the horse has something to do by rolling the roller with his tongue. This is wrong when it comes to the spade bit. That roller is almost like the "safety feature" of the bit. It serves as more of "wheel" in the horses mouth than a roller. It allows movement of the bit without scraping up the horse's mouth. I don't own a spade that doesn't have one, I think they are a necessity to my horse's comfort.


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## Wanstrom Horses

*Bosal Mechanics: Horse Hair or Rawhide??*

Yes, hitched horse hair bosals are very attractive, I cant deny that. But as far as training function they are not the best choice. a horse hair bosal is soft and pliable. They can change shape even while riding. I hold riding with these in the same category as I do rope halters. They can fail transfering signals. They move and bend with the horse, which IS NOT what you want when training a horse to be a bridle horse. The horse needs no release from the equipment, only from the handler. They need to learn to respect the bosal, not push it to move the way they want it. And that is just what happens with these hitched horsehair bosals. They are fine when a horse is at the end of the hackamore stage and respects the bosal. But as expensive they are and virtually worthless to me, I just stick with rawhide.


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## mirage790

How many spade bits to you have and what bit maker do you prefer? (Les Vogt? Garcia?)


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## Wanstrom Horses

mirage790 said:


> How many spade bits to you have and what bit maker do you prefer? (Les Vogt? Garcia?)


I own about 8 traditional spades and a couple "milder" ones for getting horses used to the side arm braces. Older Garcia bits are wonderful, well made and very attractive, but the newer Garcia bits, I find, that the finish is of lesser quality nowadays, it tends to rub off and just isnt as long lasting as the finish on the older bits. I try and buy older Garcia bits whenever I get the opportunity. I have one silver plated Crockett spade that is virtually impossible to find now, and I love it. I dont use it very often because it's so rare. I have yet to own a Les Vogt spade, I have a few frog bits by Les Vogt and thats it. I borrowed an Al Tietjen spade from a friend and I loved it. I so wish I could get my hands on one, but once again, they are hard to find. Jeremiah Watt makes a fantastic stainless steel spade, but I have yet to see a silver plated bit from them. Buckaroo Business makes a very nice spade also. My next spade I buy new will be from either Buckaroo Business or Jeremiah Watt.


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## stevenson

seriously? are you gonna take this horse, tie its head up for hours and hours at at a time, then do over correction on it so it jigs around so it looks all 'macho' 
and people want to watch you abuse this horse.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Ummm? Im not sure if I understand what you are getting at??


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## deserthorsewoman

stevenson said:


> seriously? are you gonna take this horse, tie its head up for hours and hours at at a time, then do over correction on it so it jigs around so it looks all 'macho'
> and people want to watch you abuse this horse.


No no no no, you're getting it all wrong....I know what you mean, tho. Wanstrom's vaquero/ bridle horse has nothing to do, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING with what we here in Cali see in certain neighborhoods, trust me!


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## Wanstrom Horses

stevenson said:


> seriously? are you gonna take this horse, tie its head up for hours and hours at at a time, then do over correction on it so it jigs around so it looks all 'macho'
> and people want to watch you abuse this horse.


And this folks, is why I started this thread in the first place. First of all, just because this is different doesnt mean its abuse. Second of all, I do not know what method you are refering to, because I've never heard of anything so absurd in my life. My horses stand tied to be saddled. Thats it. Other times, they stand hobbled, or are so trained to the hobbles that they willingly stand quietly. Second of all, I dont make my horses "jigg all macho" I still dont undestand what that means, lol. And lastly, my horses dont stand with their heads tied up. That causes high headed horses. I hate when a horse is high headed. So I do think you need to read through this thread again and try and understand my methods, or mind your own business and keep your irrevelant, uncalled for comments to yourself. Thank you.


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## Wanstrom Horses

stevenson said:


> seriously? are you gonna take this horse, tie its head up for hours and hours at at a time, then do over correction on it so it jigs around so it looks all 'macho'
> and people want to watch you abuse this horse.


And if you need verification, please look through my barn and photos and see if any of my horses are in a sitiuation, like which you described.


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## mirage790

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I own about 8 traditional spades and a couple "milder" ones for getting horses used to the side arm braces. Older Garcia bits are wonderful, well made and very attractive, but the newer Garcia bits, I find, that the finish is of lesser quality nowadays, it tends to rub off and just isnt as long lasting as the finish on the older bits. I try and buy older Garcia bits whenever I get the opportunity. I have one silver plated Crockett spade that is virtually impossible to find now, and I love it. I dont use it very often because it's so rare. I have yet to own a Les Vogt spade, I have a few frog bits by Les Vogt and thats it. I borrowed an Al Tietjen spade from a friend and I loved it. I so wish I could get my hands on one, but once again, they are hard to find. Jeremiah Watt makes a fantastic stainless steel spade, but I have yet to see a silver plated bit from them. Buckaroo Business makes a very nice spade also. My next spade I buy new will be from either Buckaroo Business or Jeremiah Watt.



I'm glad you mentioned Jeremiah Watt because I was wondering about that. I just learned this week about them, but they don't have the silver so don't have the "right" look, if you know what I mean. But I guess the more important part is the mouthpiece and how well it fits, not how shiny the shank is. :wink:


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## Wanstrom Horses

mirage790 said:


> I'm glad you mentioned Jeremiah Watt because I was wondering about that. I just learned this week about them, but they don't have the silver so don't have the "right" look, if you know what I mean. But I guess the more important part is the mouthpiece and how well it fits, not how shiny the shank is. :wink:


Actually, IMO the stainless Jeremiah Watt bits are beautiful, and virtually care free. Being stainless steel, they withstand rust and tarnish and need little care. A very good bit for the money.


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## mirage790

stevenson said:


> seriously? are you gonna take this horse, tie its head up for hours and hours at at a time, then do over correction on it so it jigs around so it looks all 'macho'
> and people want to watch you abuse this horse.


Hum, maybe you should read the whole thread before you go jumping to conclusions and accusing someone of abuse. "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."


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## tinyliny

I havent read the whole thread, so if I repeat something , forgive me.

How do you even get the bit in the horse's mouth? It looks like is so long that it would be a challange to get it in his mouth, and that the point of the space would be so far back that it would be irritating to him. in a human, something like that would stimulate the gag reflex. Now, horses don't have such a thing, perhaps? I know they can't vomit, but dont' know if they have any kind of reflex int he back of the throat like we do.


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## flytobecat

mirage790 said:


> Hum, maybe you should read the whole thread before you go jumping to conclusions and accusing someone of abuse. "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."


OMG-I was going to say the same thing.


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## mirage790

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Actually, IMO the stainless Jeremiah Watt bits are beautiful, and virtually care free. Being stainless steel, they withstand rust and tarnish and need little care. A very good bit for the money.


Good point, I wasn't thinking in terms of ease of care. I must admit I'm not keen on polishing anything! I had some brass bits and a Spanish Riding School style bridle with brass buckles and tips when I rode dressage, and they were a pain in the you-know-what to keep their golden shine. Looked awesome when polished up though!


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## Wanstrom Horses

tinyliny said:


> I havent read the whole thread, so if I repeat something , forgive me.
> 
> How do you even get the bit in the horse's mouth? It looks like is so long that it would be a challange to get it in his mouth, and that the point of the space would be so far back that it would be irritating to him. in a human, something like that would stimulate the gag reflex. Now, horses don't have such a thing, perhaps? I know they can't vomit, but dont' know if they have any kind of reflex int he back of the throat like we do.


Nope, Tiny, I havent covered it yet! Well every spade bit is different. Different styles of cheekpieces affect how the mouthpiece lays in a horse's mouth. When I transition a horse to a spade, I hold the bit next to horse's head at a natural angle to see how the bit will lay in the horse's mouth at a natural state. It's sort of like trying on shoes. Before I even put the bit in a horse's mouth, I see if it will work from the outside first. Some horses have a steeper state to their mouths than others. 
Horses have very large mouths. I took two weeks in an equine dental school before I went full into training bridle horses so I could understand a little better. I had the same idea you have for awhile. I always thought, "that bit would never fit in a horse's mouth". The "spade" of the spade bit never reaches past the first premolar. It looks like it could definatly gag a horse, but is rest comfortably on the horse's tongue. Granted it takes a horse a little while to get used to a large mouthpiece, but it doesnt gag them.


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## FaydesMom

stevenson said:


> seriously? are you gonna take this horse, tie its head up for hours and hours at at a time, then do over correction on it so it jigs around so it looks all 'macho'
> and people want to watch you abuse this horse.


That's a bit uncalled for, considering you haven't even SEEN anything yet from her.

Just because you seem to think everyone who rides with big bits is cruel and just wants to "look all macho" doesn't make it true. Maybe hold your tongue until you see something that warrants such criticism.

/sheesh


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## mirage790

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Nope, Tiny, I havent covered it yet! Well every spade bit is different. Different styles of cheekpieces affect how the mouthpiece lays in a horse's mouth. When I transition a horse to a spade, I hold the bit next to horse's head at a natural angle to see how the bit will lay in the horse's mouth at a natural state. It's sort of like trying on shoes. Before I even put the bit in a horse's mouth, I see if it will work from the outside first. Some horses have a steeper state to their mouths than others.
> Horses have very large mouths. I took two weeks in an equine dental school before I went full into training bridle horses so I could understand a little better. I had the same idea you have for awhile. I always thought, "that bit would never fit in a horse's mouth". The "spade" of the spade bit never reaches past the first premolar. It looks like it could definatly gag a horse, but is rest comfortably on the horse's tongue. Granted it takes a horse a little while to get used to a large mouthpiece, but it doesnt gag them.



If you measure how long the spade is and measure up from the corners of the horses mouth on the outside, you will be able to see it comes nowhere near the throat of the horse, which is back where the throat latch of the bridle is.

Oops! Posted this to the quote, should have been to the one this is referring to. Sorry!


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## BBBCrone

FaydesMom said:


> That's a bit uncalled for, considering you haven't even SEEN anything yet from her.
> 
> Just because you seem to think everyone who rides with big bits is cruel and just wants to "look all macho" doesn't make it true. Maybe hold your tongue until you see something that warrants such criticism.
> 
> /sheesh



^^ This! Sheesh ...

Checking in to tell you I'm really enjoying this thread a LOT. I've learned so much!


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## Wanstrom Horses

Thanks everyone for following and giving your input. I will keep posting. I found some video of a seven year old with ten rides I started this spring. I'll post it in the morning, to kinda show how I want a horse to act before I take them out of the round pen. Keep checking in, I try and post new things everyday, once again, thanks so much!!


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## stevenson

my comments were not irrelevant and if you dont want to hear peoples opinions then dont start a thread. You have not seen the Vaquero training that goes on here, where a horse is tied with its head up for hours at a time, then they teach it to over collect at its head, and then dance , and yet they add the Western style of a reined or bridle horse on top of it. If YOU are speaking of a horse that responds off leg and bridle ques as the Western horses were trained back in the 60 or 70's that is different. ..


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## stevenson

deserthorsewoman said:


> No no no no, you're getting it all wrong....I know what you mean, tho. Wanstrom's vaquero/ bridle horse has nothing to do, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING with what we here in Cali see in certain neighborhoods, trust me!


DHW.. you know what I am referring to, that is the Vaquero training they do here .. I posted my comment when there was no other comment showing, it was not way back on page 17 or 18 ...


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## Wanstrom Horses

stevenson said:


> my comments were not irrelevant and if you dont want to hear peoples opinions then dont start a thread. You have not seen the Vaquero training that goes on here, where a horse is tied with its head up for hours at a time, then they teach it to over collect at its head, and then dance , and yet they add the Western style of a reined or bridle horse on top of it. If YOU are speaking of a horse that responds off leg and bridle ques as the Western horses were trained back in the 60 or 70's that is different. ..


I suggest you read through the thread before you jump on me. There was another post on here, someone was familiar with the nasty side of so called vaquero horse training, which I call primitive force. They held their tongue and ASKED what my method was, not accused me of abusing horses. We are all adults here, and I don't want this thread filled with pointless arguments. I'm asking you to read through the thread, take what I have posted into consideration. You will find that I'm not some cold blooded trainer looking for a dollar and a way to make my horses perform unnaturally. I care about my animals, I make a living out of the saddle. I don't want a fancy horse that was forced into something unnatural, I train working PARTNERS, not slaves. If you look through my thread and my pictures, I'm sure you will find that out. Like I have stated before, the word vaquero has a bad name, I can understand that, and I'm trying to show an honest, humane training method that is also a way of life for many cowboys. Closed minds continue to run that way of life into the dust...


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## BBBCrone

stevenson said:


> my comments were not irrelevant and if you dont want to hear peoples opinions then dont start a thread. You have not seen the Vaquero training that goes on here, where a horse is tied with its head up for hours at a time, then they teach it to over collect at its head, and then dance , and yet they add the Western style of a reined or bridle horse on top of it. If YOU are speaking of a horse that responds off leg and bridle ques as the Western horses were trained back in the 60 or 70's that is different. ..


stevenson, your comments are irrelevant if you are upset about something that isn't even in this thread. Like many have suggested, READ the thread from beginning to end. You can easily tell there is nothing like what you describe in here.


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## GotaDunQH

Yea, I don't see ANYWHERE in this thread where the OP said she ties her horses heads from the rafter for hours.


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## mirage790

stevenson said:


> my comments were not irrelevant and if you dont want to hear peoples opinions then dont start a thread. You have not seen the Vaquero training that goes on here, where a horse is tied with its head up for hours at a time, then they teach it to over collect at its head, and then dance , and yet they add the Western style of a reined or bridle horse on top of it. If YOU are speaking of a horse that responds off leg and bridle ques as the Western horses were trained back in the 60 or 70's that is different. ..


Posting _"Seriously? Are you going to take this horse, tie its head up for hours and hours at at a time, then do over correction on it so it jigs around so it looks all 'macho' And people want to watch you abuse this horse."_ was not an opinion, it was a rude attack. And not only did you attack the person who started this thread, you attacked all of us who are interested in her teaching with that post. We are more than willing to hear someone's OPINION and even constructive criticism, but that post was uncalled for. I have no doubt you have seen some pretty bad things in the name of "vaquero training," but had you actually read the thread before you posted you would have seen this is NOT that kind of "training." So instead of trying to defend yourself here, an apology would have been more appropriate. 

Let me just end by saying it is rather curious that someone has a lot of posts throughout this forum, yet has no public profile and no pictures of the horses she/he claims to have. That makes me suspicious, and yes THAT is just MY opinion.


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## Thunderspark

well you've kept my interest, half the stuff you listed off I have no idea what they are LOL
I'm just a trail rider LOL


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## karliejaye

Thank you for starting this thread! I have been very intrigued by the vaquero style for a few years, since getting to ride a finished bridle horse in a cattle drive. It was hands-down the most fun I have had on a horse in my life, far surpassing foxhunting and eventing. I would like to incorporate some of what I learn into my own horses training.
Is 10 years old, too old to try and go back to say the hack phase? He has an odd habit of dropping his head all the way down to the ground, and I am wondering if it is bit related (he is in a simple curb bit).


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## Wanstrom Horses

karliejaye said:


> Thank you for starting this thread! I have been very intrigued by the vaquero style for a few years, since getting to ride a finished bridle horse in a cattle drive. It was hands-down the most fun I have had on a horse in my life, far surpassing foxhunting and eventing. I would like to incorporate some of what I learn into my own horses training.
> Is 10 years old, too old to try and go back to say the hack phase? He has an odd habit of dropping his head all the way down to the ground, and I am wondering if it is bit related (he is in a simple curb bit).


i have run into horses that do have that habit where they want to pick up the bit and pull it down with their head. its very annoying. i find that it usually isnt fixable until the horse is in a two rein. a half breed bit corrects the headset.the way the bit sits in a horses mouth, when there head is too low, the port presses against the roof.of the mouth and its the same when the horses head is too high. then they learn to carry the bit with a natural headset and correct themselves. you can start with a hack and see how he.does. i dont think its ever too late to teach a horse something new.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## westerncowgurl

stevenson said:


> my comments were not irrelevant and if you dont want to hear peoples opinions then dont start a thread. You have not seen the Vaquero training that goes on here, where a horse is tied with its head up for hours at a time, then they teach it to over collect at its head, and then dance , and yet they add the Western style of a reined or bridle horse on top of it. If YOU are speaking of a horse that responds off leg and bridle ques as the Western horses were trained back in the 60 or 70's that is different. ..


just because people do that in your area doesnt mean everyone does it! looks like you really need to read the thread..
im loveing the thread so far! cant wait to see the videos


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## barrelbeginner

My eyes.. hurt.. lol.. I just read this whole thread.. Im soo curious now..


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## tinyliny

And now I am asking that the minor argument be laid aside. Wanstrom said that her training is NOT the sort of abuse that Stevenson is talking about. I have an idea that I know a little of what Stevenson is talking about, and I don't blame her for being concerned. But you know the old saying, "innocent until proven guilty". 

Everyone , let's allow the thread to return to it's original path.


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## mirage790

I wrecked my back on the motorcycle this past fall so have been allowed to do doing NOTHING for the past 2 months while the doctors were doing all their testing, and I finally have my surgery to fix it this Friday. (Yeah, over 40 years of working and training horses, doing my share of hitting the ground, fences, and even the side of a barn once, it takes a motorcycle to do me in! Go figure...) So I have had a lot of time to think about my riding and training. When I started my old gelding, oh if only I knew then what I know now, he'd be a totally different horse to ride. Not that he's bad now, but there are just so many holes in his education. When I get back in the saddle (and none too soon as far as I'm concerned!) I think I'll take him to the hackamore stage and see what I can do to close up some of those holes. He has never held a bit well until the one I have now, which everyone tells me isn't supposed to be a very good bit, but he carries it nicely. (Notice the huge, wide space in the mouthpiece.) Anything else I put in his mouth that had a straight mouthpiece, he won't or can't close his mouth on. (I'll check and see if I can find any pictures of that and post them later.) Could it possibly be that his tongue is too thick, or his palate is too low? Any thoughts since you took a dental class? And before you ask, No, I don't think I can get a picture of the inside of his mouth. lol


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## Wanstrom Horses

mirage790 said:


> I wrecked my back on the motorcycle this past fall so have been allowed to do doing NOTHING for the past 2 months while the doctors were doing all their testing, and I finally have my surgery to fix it this Friday. (Yeah, over 40 years of working and training horses, doing my share of hitting the ground, fences, and even the side of a barn once, it takes a motorcycle to do me in! Go figure...) So I have had a lot of time to think about my riding and training. When I started my old gelding, oh if only I knew then what I know now, he'd be a totally different horse to ride. Not that he's bad now, but there are just so many holes in his education. When I get back in the saddle (and none too soon as far as I'm concerned!) I think I'll take him to the hackamore stage and see what I can do to close up some of those holes. He has never held a bit well until the one I have now, which everyone tells me isn't supposed to be a very good bit, but he carries it nicely. (Notice the huge, wide space in the mouthpiece.) Anything else I put in his mouth that had a straight mouthpiece, he won't or can't close his mouth on. (I'll check and see if I can find any pictures of that and post them later.) Could it possibly be that his tongue is too thick, or his palate is too low? Any thoughts since you took a dental class? And before you ask, No, I don't think I can get a picture of the inside of his mouth. lol


I'm sorry to hear about your accident. I havent seen a bit like that. Looks to me like a ported correction bit. I would guess either your horse does have a low palate, maybe some wolf teeth problems? Or just doesnt like a staight bar. Horses tend to be very picky animals, lol. Where as I havent used a mouthpiece like that, Im not one much to say, but it looks like it would be most comparable to a mona lisa mouthpiece. A very interesting bit. And I know some people bash on certain bits, and Im guilty of it sometimes, but really the only opinion that matters is the horse's. I would take him to a hackamore stage, then when it's time to transition to a two rein, use this bit again, then keep switching bits with a straighter bar gradually so he can get used to the feel. But if he doesn't and he handles fine in that bit, I wouldnt worry about it that much. Just maybe find a fancy one, ride in it, and if he handles like a bridle horse, no one has to know!


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## Wanstrom Horses

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your accident. I havent seen a bit like that. Looks to me like a ported correction bit. I would guess either your horse does have a low palate, maybe some wolf teeth problems? Or just doesnt like a staight bar. Horses tend to be very picky animals, lol. Where as I havent used a mouthpiece like that, Im not one much to say, but it looks like it would be most comparable to a mona lisa mouthpiece. A very interesting bit. And I know some people bash on certain bits, and Im guilty of it sometimes, but really the only opinion that matters is the horse's. I would take him to a hackamore stage, then when it's time to transition to a two rein, use this bit again, then keep switching bits with a straighter bar gradually so he can get used to the feel. But if he doesn't and he handles fine in that bit, I wouldnt worry about it that much. Just maybe find a fancy one, ride in it, and if he handles like a bridle horse, no one has to know!


Oh, and I wont ask for a picture of the inside of him mouth, but could I maybe get a close up profile of his head??


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## Wanstrom Horses

Good day everyone!!  I ran across some videos taken earlier this year. One of a horse with ten rides total and one of a horse with ten rides in a hackamore. Neither one of these horses is was ready for a transition yet, not even close. But I've decided to show these just to illustrate how I want a horse to act before they go out of the round pen. I think a horse should be soft, and under control in order to graduate out of the corral. If you dont have control inisde of the corral, you sure wont have it outside. In the first half of the video, I am riding a seven year old dun mare with ten rides. She was a total bronc when she came to me. She bucked into a panel and broke four of my ribs ten days before this video was taken, so I apologize for my choppy riding, I was in a lot of pain. And I do apologize for the video quality. It was taken off me cell phone. But as you can see, this horse is under control. She's soft, her head set is right and she is relaxed. This is what I like to see before a horse leaves a round pen to go to work. In the second half of the video is the paint filly that I did the transition pictures with earlier in the thread. As you can she, she is soft and quiet. And I slipped over my saddle cantle to test her control, you can see she didnt like it at all, but didnt bolt or buck and I could control her easily with the hackamore. I apologize for my riding in this one too, I am pregnant lol. I can ride better than this I swear! But this is the only video footage I can find. Hope you enjoy!! 

https://vimeo.com/56869075


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## Wanstrom Horses

Sorry, the video will be fully loaded on there in about 20 minutes. Sorry!!!


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## katieandscooby

I was wondering if it was just my phone being a jerk! Ok I will check it out in a little while.

For now one question. I along with a few people I know have switched over to riding our young horses in french link snaffles. I don't know if it makes a diffeence when switching them to a bosal, I haven't used my bosal since I sold my show mare. Because tou switch them out into a hackamore so fast do you think it matters which type of snaffle they are started in?

And one more, lol. I started my one guy in a bosal because I was finding it hard to find a bit he liked. I since switched him over to a snaffle as I want to show him and develop some more bend then I had in a bosal. To switch him back though he seems really confused. He backs but does not turn well... is it just consistant riding him in a bosal again to get him soft in it again?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mirage790

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your accident. I havent seen a bit like that. Looks to me like a ported correction bit. I would guess either your horse does have a low palate, maybe some wolf teeth problems? Or just doesnt like a staight bar. Horses tend to be very picky animals, lol. Where as I havent used a mouthpiece like that, Im not one much to say, but it looks like it would be most comparable to a mona lisa mouthpiece. A very interesting bit. And I know some people bash on certain bits, and Im guilty of it sometimes, but really the only opinion that matters is the horse's. I would take him to a hackamore stage, then when it's time to transition to a two rein, use this bit again, then keep switching bits with a straighter bar gradually so he can get used to the feel. But if he doesn't and he handles fine in that bit, I wouldnt worry about it that much. Just maybe find a fancy one, ride in it, and if he handles like a bridle horse, no one has to know!



Thanks, I was kind of thinking the same thing about the horse's opinion being the most important one. Sometimes I let people's opinions mislead me sometimes...although I'm getting better in in my old age. :wink:

One thing I forgot to mention about this bit is there must be springs inside the mouthpiece. If you look closely you'll see two pivot points on either side of the port. The bit has a slight pivoting spring action at these points, so if one is not quiet enough with their hands, the shaft will pull back a little ways but the mouthpiece itself will stay in place because the shaft just pivots. One would have to be rather unsteady with their hands to raise the port portion. Some sort of a safety feature? (still looking for not quite closed mouth pics)


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## Wanstrom Horses

videos working!!


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## deserthorsewoman

Can't watch the video...won't work on my device, it says...android....is there a possibility to put them on youtube?


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## mirage790

Video worked well! I've broken ribs too so I can sympathize with that one. (Hey, it only hurt when I laughed...or moved...or breathed! lol) And I've ridden while I was pregnant too. My husband hated it, but I continued until I was so big I couldn't get up around my big stomach, and of course he refused to help. But even before you get huge, it still affects your balance.

I like the relaxed attitude of both horses. Really nice!


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## mirage790

Do you want the profile picture with or without a bit 'n bridle?


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## Wanstrom Horses

mirage790 said:


> Video worked well! I've broken ribs too so I can sympathize with that one. (Hey, it only hurt when I laughed...or moved...or breathed! lol) And I've ridden while I was pregnant too. My husband hated it, but I continued until I was so big I couldn't get up around my big stomach, and of course he refused to help. But even before you get huge, it still affects your balance.
> 
> I like the relaxed attitude of both horses. Really nice!


Thanks! Yeah I'm about six months and still starting colts, how long before I should quit? My hubby and I have been arguing about it lol. And without bit would be great, but it doesn't matter.


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## mirage790

I could only find one w/o a bridle that wasn't blurry. He really HATES to have his picture taken!


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## mirage790

My uncle's ornery old mare broke my ribs when I was in high school. My cousins and I were out in the pasture catching some horses to ride. I just walked past her and said Hi as she put her head up to look. I reached out and put my hand on her shoulder to pet her...and I remember the rest in slow motion. Her ears flattened back as she swung around. I started to turn to get out of the way but she was faster than I was, and as I saw her hind legs lift off the ground, I remember thinking, "Oh, this is going to hurt!" She got me with double barrels right in the ribs, cracking them and knocked the air right out of me. As I laid there unable to breath, one cousin ran for the house screaming, "GAIL GOT KICKED! GAIL GOT KICKED!" and the other cousin stood over me and asked, "Does that hurt?" Of course I couldn't talk yet but I was thinking was "Of course it hurts you idiot, GIVE ME MOUTH TO MOUTH BECAUSE I CAN'T BREATH!!" I was up and on my feet and breathing again by the time my uncle finally got there. When we asked what took him so long, he said he thought she was yelling "GAIL GOT KILLED" so why should he have a heart attack running all the way if I was already dead? Nice, huh? :? OMG, I could write a book about everything that happened to my cousins and I with my uncle's horses! Actually the first horse I bought was a dead one...remind me to tell you all about that some other time.


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## AnrewPL

hell yeah


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## Wanstrom Horses

mirage790 said:


> My uncle's ornery old mare broke my ribs when I was in high school. My cousins and I were out in the pasture catching some horses to ride. I just walked past her and said Hi as she put her head up to look. I reached out and put my hand on her shoulder to pet her...and I remember the rest in slow motion. Her ears flattened back as she swung around. I started to turn to get out of the way but she was faster than I was, and as I saw her hind legs lift off the ground, I remember thinking, "Oh, this is going to hurt!" She got me with double barrels right in the ribs, cracking them and knocked the air right out of me. As I laid there unable to breath, one cousin ran for the house screaming, "GAIL GOT KICKED! GAIL GOT KICKED!" and the other cousin stood over me and asked, "Does that hurt?" Of course I couldn't talk yet but I was thinking was "Of course it hurts you idiot, GIVE ME MOUTH TO MOUTH BECAUSE I CAN'T BREATH!!" I was up and on my feet and breathing again by the time my uncle finally got there. When we asked what took him so long, he said he thought she was yelling "GAIL GOT KILLED" so why should he have a heart attack running all the way if I was already dead? Nice, huh? :? OMG, I could write a book about everything that happened to my cousins and I with my uncle's horses! Actually the first horse I bought was a dead one...remind me to tell you all about that some other time.


Horses always give us such good stories. I remember once, I was on a ranch job on elk mountain. We were moving cattle back to the creek for water. I was riding a bay colt that came from a friend in Elko. He bucked so hard he bucked my saddle loose and it slid off with me. But I caught my spur in the cinch and was drug for a good quarter mile before I could reach up and grab the mecate. I hit my head so hard I was in a dark room for a week. Lol and I still have to move the cows and ride 13 miles back to camp!


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## Wanstrom Horses

From what I can see, his mouth ties back very shallow. And he looks really narrow in his cheek area, which is probably pushing that bit against his palate. Also how does he carry his head. Does he carry his had with the bit the same as he does naturally?


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## LisaG

I have a question for you. If you had a horse with scar tissue on his nose, which made him very sensitive to pressure there, would you just leave him in the snaffle? Have you ever had to deal with this?

I ask because I have a colt that got banged up before I bought him. He seems sensitive to having any pressure on his nose, so I'm thinking the hackamore won't ever be a good option for him.


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## Wanstrom Horses

*Jingle Them Spurs*

A cowboy is often recognized by his spurs. And I know of many who have never seen a true "vaquero" spur before. By looking at these spurs, many think, jeez, those are inhumane and brutal. But people tend to realize that these spurs need to be used like a spade. The horse needs to be trained to respond to these. "Jingle Bobs" help with that spur training. They are just used with signals. The horse isnt stabbed with them, but is taught to hear the jingle bobs and recongnize the sound. When I spur train a horse, I want them to already follow leg and seat cues very well. I begin by not even wearing the spurs, but holding them in my hand. When I ask the horse to turn and apply pressure with my outside leg, I jingle those spurs. Eventually the horse will recognize the sound as a cue to turn and my spur never comes into much contact with the horse. Below I've attached some pictures of spurs. Spurs are really are an art form and a training aid in the vaquero world.


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## Wanstrom Horses

LisaG said:


> I have a question for you. If you had a horse with scar tissue on his nose, which made him very sensitive to pressure there, would you just leave him in the snaffle? Have you ever had to deal with this?
> 
> I ask because I have a colt that got banged up before I bought him. He seems sensitive to having any pressure on his nose, so I'm thinking the hackamore won't ever be a good option for him.


Yes! I had a palamino stallion that got ran through a fence by a cougar and cut his nose all the way into the nasal cavity. I have lead him with just a mohair rope around his neck he is so sensitive. I never put a bosal on the horse. I left him in a snaffle and went from snaffle to long shank to billy allen to correction to half breed to starter spade to spanish spade. It was a lot longer process, but it does work without using a hackamore.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Yes! I had a palamino stallion that got ran through a fence by a cougar and cut his nose all the way into the nasal cavity. I have lead him with just a mohair rope around his neck he is so sensitive. I never put a bosal on the horse. I left him in a snaffle and went from snaffle to long shank to billy allen to correction to half breed to starter spade to spanish spade. It was a lot longer process, but it does work without using a hackamore.


You can see here how mangled up his face is. It happened when he was a weanling and it still looks the same now. Hes 5 years old now.


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## LisaG

Okay, thanks. I was just wondering how you would deal with that. 

My guy also has an ugly scar on his nose. I guess he'll never be a show horse, but that's just fine with me.

Nice spurs. I have a set similar to the last pair (but not as pretty), which I use on my older saddle horse. Do you always use spurs on your horses eventually?


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## Wanstrom Horses

LisaG said:


> Okay, thanks. I was just wondering how you would deal with that.
> 
> My guy also has an ugly scar on his nose. I guess he'll never be a show horse, but that's just fine with me.
> 
> Nice spurs. I have a set similar to the last pair (but not as pretty), which I use on my older saddle horse. Do you always use spurs on your horses eventually?


Yeah, I eventually use them. I have a lot of really neat pairs that I like to show off, lol


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## Muppetgirl

I NEED that last pair of spurs!!! I wear my 10 rowel stainless steel pair and feel pretty plain.......with that pair on I'd feel pretty nice:lol:


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## Wanstrom Horses

Muppetgirl said:


> I NEED that last pair of spurs!!! I wear my 10 rowel stainless steel pair and feel pretty plain.......with that pair on I'd feel pretty nice:lol:


I have so many pairs, lol  I just keep the mentality that I need them, then when you really "need" something, it justifies buying it!


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## Muppetgirl

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I have so many pairs, lol  I just keep the mentality that I need them, then when you really "need" something, it justifies buying it!


Well if you ever want to cull your herd of spurs PM me!:lol:


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## Wanstrom Horses

Muppetgirl said:


> Well if you ever want to cull your herd of spurs PM me!:lol:


I actually do have a pair I would sell!


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## Muppetgirl

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I actually do have a pair I would sell!


PM me! :lol:


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## Wanstrom Horses

*"The Bridle Horse"*

I get asked a lot what the ideal build on a horse would be for me. There are a lot of things I like about a lot of different horses. But if I was choosing the complete package for a horse it would be just like a gelding of mine I have pictured below. "Zip" is a 8 year old Mr San Peppy gelding. I love this horse, he was my best buddy when I was working feedlots. I'll tell you the things I like about him. His head. Some say Zips head is too big, but if you look at the size of the bridle bits, they look really stupid on a horse with a tiny little halter head. His withers, this horse will hold a saddle, and he'll hold it well. I've roped bulls on him and my saddle never moves. His neck, he's got a longer, slender neck that ties into his shoulder. His neck arches so beautifully under a bridle and he is able to carry the bit very easily and refined. His size. He's a big boy, standing at 16.2. He can hold up to a long days ride and I dont feel bad about riding him a lot like I do with my little bitty horses. Zip is the perfect looking horse for me when Im looking to make a bridle horse, and boy, does he look fancy under all that silver!


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## thenrie

subscribe


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## Wanstrom Horses

*Quality Rawhide Gear, The Effects Of Bad Braiding*

All rawhide gear is the same, right? No, not at all. Some people think buying cheap rawhide equpiment is no different than expensive stuff. When you can get a bosal for 35 dollars through some large scale tack dealer, is a better deal than 200 dollars from some braider. But many dont realize that this cutting finacial corners in very detremential to the horse, training and overall outcome of the process. First I'll start with bosals. Cheap bosals are unbalanced, and the braiding is very rough causing uncomfort and ignoring the signals from the rider. Many people overlook romal reins, and think all reins are the same, but the connectors on the cheaper reins many times are slightly different sizes, and they can really mess up the way a horse reads signals. I've added a couple pictures of how to tell good rawhide from bad rawhide. First picture is the good stuff, last picture is the cheaper stuff.


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## mirage790

Wanstrom Horses said:


> From what I can see, his mouth ties back very shallow. And he looks really narrow in his cheek area, which is probably pushing that bit against his palate. Also how does he carry his head. Does he carry his had with the bit the same as he does naturally?


Yes, I'd say he basically carries his head the same with his bit. I always thought his mouth was short. His lips rather thick, so I thought it would just make sense if his tongue would be thick too. I can't use any bit with a thick mouth because, like with a straight mouth bit, he doesn't close his mouth all the way. I wish I had a picture of that, but his teeth don't touch in the front and his tongue kind of squishes out the side where the bit is. Here's a shot from the front if that helps any with seeing the narrowness (or not) of his cheeks better.


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## Wanstrom Horses

*Does That Bosal Fit??*

Bosal fitting is just as important to saddle fit. A bosal should sit evenly on the horse's face. When you remove the hackamore after a long ride, there should be even sweat marks on the horse's nose where the bosal sits. Instead of trying to evplain this, I'll just post a couple pics. The picture of the three horses, the bosal in the middle is the only one that fits. And you can see how the way the riders signals could be messed up. In the second picture, you can see the sweat marks from a proper fit.


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## mirage790

Wanstrom Horses said:


> All rawhide gear is the same, right? No, not at all. Some people think buying cheap rawhide equpiment is no different than expensive stuff. When you can get a bosal for 35 dollars through some large scale tack dealer, is a better deal than 200 dollars from some braider. But many dont realize that this cutting finacial corners in very detremential to the horse, training and overall outcome of the process. First I'll start with bosals. Cheap bosals are unbalanced, and the braiding is very rough causing uncomfort and ignoring the signals from the rider. Many people overlook romal reins, and think all reins are the same, but the connectors on the cheaper reins many times are slightly different sizes, and they can really mess up the way a horse reads signals. I've added a couple pictures of how to tell good rawhide from bad rawhide. First picture is the good stuff, last picture is the cheaper stuff.


Do you use rawhide creme on your rawhide items? Also, you might explain how to shape the bosal too. (just a suggestion)


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## wild_spot

Subbing! Love reading about this. Whereabouts did you learn this style of training?

Also, whats the song you have backing that vid? I like it


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## Wanstrom Horses

mirage790 said:


> Yes, I'd say he basically carries his head the same with his bit. I always thought his mouth was short. His lips rather thick, so I thought it would just make sense if his tongue would be thick too. I can't use any bit with a thick mouth because, like with a straight mouth bit, he doesn't close his mouth all the way. I wish I had a picture of that, but his teeth don't touch in the front and his tongue kind of squishes out the side where the bit is. Here's a shot from the front if that helps any with seeing the narrowness (or not) of his cheeks better.


Yeah, he is pretty narrow, he's got one of those really tapered heads. But I dont think that would really affect him that much. I think he's just got a shallow mouth and a low palate. Have you tried maybe just a wide port moutpiece, or even maybe a frog bit with a crickett? I'd say if he closes his mouth all the way with that bit, rides nice in it and it doesnt seem to bother him, leave him in it. But if you dont feel that works well enough for him, try him in a hack or maybe try wide port or a frog, maybe even a mona lisa.


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## Wanstrom Horses

wild_spot said:


> Subbing! Love reading about this. Whereabouts did you learn this style of training?
> 
> Also, whats the song you have backing that vid? I like it


Thanks, glad you are enjoying it. That song is called Old Time Vaquero by BuckarooGirl Adrian Brannan. Well Ive learned this method in many different places and in many different ways. When I was 16, I worked for an old cowboy out in the Owyhees for a summer. This guy is a master at training bridle horses, I learned a lot from him. My great uncle also raised, bred, and trained great bridle horses for many people in the area, I still learn stuff from him on a daily basis. I also find I learn a lot from sitting down in the livestock yard cafe and having a cup of coffee with the old cowboys that come there to pass the time. I learn little things from watching others at ranch rodeos, my husband is also a great cowboy, he's a fourth generation horseman. Then I've learned and perfected all that knowledge with experience and fixing my method up so it works good for me and my horses. But I still learn every day.


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## Barrelhorsetrainer

My moto is the day you die is the day you stop learning!  P.S. Love this song!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wanstrom Horses

Barrelhorsetrainer said:


> My moto is the day you die is the day you stop learning!  P.S. Love this song!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


True that. Some things that horses do still surprise the hell out of me to this day!!


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## tinyliny

mirage790 said:


> My uncle's ornery old mare broke my ribs when I was in high school. My cousins and I were out in the pasture catching some horses to ride. I just walked past her and said Hi as she put her head up to look. I reached out and put my hand on her shoulder to pet her...and I remember the rest in slow motion. Her ears flattened back as she swung around. I started to turn to get out of the way but she was faster than I was, and as I saw her hind legs lift off the ground, I remember thinking, "Oh, this is going to hurt!" She got me with double barrels right in the ribs, cracking them and knocked the air right out of me. As I laid there unable to breath, one cousin ran for the house screaming, "GAIL GOT KICKED! GAIL GOT KICKED!" and the other cousin stood over me and asked, "Does that hurt?" Of course I couldn't talk yet but I was thinking was "Of course it hurts you idiot, GIVE ME MOUTH TO MOUTH BECAUSE I CAN'T BREATH!!" I was up and on my feet and breathing again by the time my uncle finally got there. When we asked what took him so long, he said he thought she was yelling "GAIL GOT KILLED" so why should he have a heart attack running all the way if I was already dead? Nice, huh? :? OMG, I could write a book about everything that happened to my cousins and I with my uncle's horses! Actually the first horse I bought was a dead one...remind me to tell you all about that some other time.


 
Promise? Don't forget your promise to tell us the story of how you bought a dead horse and the other "tales'.


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## mirage790

tinyliny said:


> Promise? Don't forget your promise to tell us the story of how you bought a dead horse and the other "tales'.


Sure, but I hate to monopolize the thread when people are trying to learn. Guess I'm just gettin' old because I find myself starting to ramble sometimes. (It's one of the privileges that comes with age.)


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## BBBCrone

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Bosal fitting is just as important to saddle fit. A bosal should sit evenly on the horse's face. When you remove the hackamore after a long ride, there should be even sweat marks on the horse's nose where the bosal sits. Instead of trying to evplain this, I'll just post a couple pics. The picture of the three horses, the bosal in the middle is the only one that fits. And you can see how the way the riders signals could be messed up. In the second picture, you can see the sweat marks from a proper fit.


I have a question on this one. The middle one that fits correct? It looks to me to be awful close to the eye. Is that just a trick of the picture or does it really hang that close? If it does, does it ever cause problems by hitting the eye at all or is the fit so good all the way around it doesn't move at all?

I hope I'm making sense. I've only just woke up.


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## Wanstrom Horses

BBBCrone said:


> I have a question on this one. The middle one that fits correct? It looks to me to be awful close to the eye. Is that just a trick of the picture or does it really hang that close? If it does, does it ever cause problems by hitting the eye at all or is the fit so good all the way around it doesn't move at all?
> 
> I hope I'm making sense. I've only just woke up.


When the bosal fits correctly, the hanger doesn't move. It does look really close to the eye, but it never hits it. It may take a little while for certain horses to get used to seeing it put of the corner of their eye though. I've he some that freak out the first few rides because it spooks them lol.


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## mirage790

BBBCrone said:


> I have a question on this one. The middle one that fits correct? It looks to me to be awful close to the eye. Is that just a trick of the picture or does it really hang that close? If it does, does it ever cause problems by hitting the eye at all or is the fit so good all the way around it doesn't move at all?
> 
> I hope I'm making sense. I've only just woke up.


I see what you are referring to. That is the bosal hanger. The bosal is only the part that fits around the nose, and the rein/lead is called a mecate. And only when you assemble all three together is it referred to as a hackamore. 

Yes hangers do lay right close under the eye but it usually doesn't bother the horse at all. And if the bosal fits correctly, the hanger won't have any movement in it. However some people will take a piece of latigo strap and tie it to the hanger under the horses eye and run it under the jawbone. (I think it bothers them more than it does the horse. lol)


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## mirage790

Wanstrom Horses said:


> When the bosal fits correctly, the hanger doesn't move. It does look really close to the eye, but it never hits it. It may take a little while for certain horses to get used to seeing it put of the corner of their eye though. I've he some that freak out the first few rides because it spooks them lol.


LOL, apparently we were posting at the same time, but you type faster than I do!


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## Wanstrom Horses

BBBCrone said:


> I have a question on this one. The middle one that fits correct? It looks to me to be awful close to the eye. Is that just a trick of the picture or does it really hang that close? If it does, does it ever cause problems by hitting the eye at all or is the fit so good all the way around it doesn't move at all?
> 
> I hope I'm making sense. I've only just woke up.


There are also hackamore set ups with a rope fiador to keep the hanger away from the eye.mill post a pic in a minute.


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## Wanstrom Horses

First picture is of the latigo strap Mirage is reffering to. Second is of a hackamore set uo with a rope fiador. I don't really like either, I think its too much on the horse's head and kind of hinders the necessary movement of the bosal. I also pull my hackamores over the horse's head and I always end up forgetting that latigo strap and the fiador.


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## mirage790

Wanstrom Horses said:


> First picture is of the latigo strap Mirage is reffering to. Second is of a hackamore set uo with a rope fiador. I don't really like either, I think its too much on the horse's head and kind of hinders the necessary movement of the bosal. I also pull my hackamores over the horse's head and I always end up forgetting that latigo strap and the fiador.


I agree. I think they both change the angle that the bosal hangs, even if ever so slightly, so it no longer hang in a naturally position. Therefore, it must affect the action of the bosal also.


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## LesandLily

I find this thread really interesting and I am intrigued by the concept of a bridle horse. I first saw reference to it in a video I watched by Martin Black. how do your overall methods compare to his do you think. They seem fairly similar from where I sit.

I would really like to work both our horses in a bosal as I want them as light as possible but I don't know if I ride well enough to take them much farther than that right now. My trainer says I ride like a "cowboy". I am not sure if that was meant as an insult or not...LOL. 

Cheers!
Les


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## Wanstrom Horses

LesandLily said:


> I find this thread really interesting and I am intrigued by the concept of a bridle horse. I first saw reference to it in a video I watched by Martin Black. how do your overall methods compare to his do you think. They seem fairly similar from where I sit.
> 
> I would really like to work both our horses in a bosal as I want them as light as possible but I don't know if I ride well enough to take them much farther than that right now. My trainer says I ride like a "cowboy". I am not sure if that was meant as an insult or not...LOL.
> 
> Cheers!
> Les


Riding with a Borsalino is actually easier that with a snaffle, IMO. It takes a lot less contact from the rider to use the same cues. The basics of using a hack really is just cue and release. A good hackamore horse will respond to the cues of the bosal movement on their jaw and chin before pressure must be applied to the nose. Your reins should be lose all the times, and cues should be followed by a quick release. As for your other question, yes Martin blacks method is very very close to mine.


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## Wanstrom Horses

LesandLily said:


> I find this thread really interesting and I am intrigued by the concept of a bridle horse. I first saw reference to it in a video I watched by Martin Black. how do your overall methods compare to his do you think. They seem fairly similar from where I sit.
> 
> I would really like to work both our horses in a bosal as I want them as light as possible but I don't know if I ride well enough to take them much farther than that right now. My trainer says I ride like a "cowboy". I am not sure if that was meant as an insult or not...LOL.
> 
> Cheers!
> Les


Boy this auto correct thing is a pain, in my first line I meant riding with a bosal. Lol


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## mirage790

LesandLily said:


> I find this thread really interesting and I am intrigued by the concept of a bridle horse. I first saw reference to it in a video I watched by Martin Black. how do your overall methods compare to his do you think. They seem fairly similar from where I sit.
> 
> I would really like to work both our horses in a bosal as I want them as light as possible but I don't know if I ride well enough to take them much farther than that right now. My trainer says I ride like a "cowboy". I am not sure if that was meant as an insult or not...LOL.
> 
> Cheers!
> Les


If someone told me I rode like a "cowboy" Id take it as a compliment!  (Hey, you've got to take them where you can find them.)


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## HighonEquine

What are good brands to look for when buying the Bosal set up? I have found a decent looking bosal but I don't know what to look for specifically when it comes to the reins and bridle part.


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## Wanstrom Horses

HighonEquine said:


> What are good brands to look for when buying the Bosal set up? I have found a decent looking bosal but I don't know what to look for specifically when it comes to the reins and bridle part.


If you have a quality bosal, the other stuff doesn't really matter. Just make sure you dont use a headstall for a hanger. I had one set up with a brow band and I hated it, actually, it's on the horse pictured in my avatar. They are hard to adjust right and pull the bosal up higher than it needs to be. I finally cut that headstall off and put a hanger on. Just make sure what ever you buy is soft and easy to adjust. As far as reins go, are you wanting horse hair, yacht rope, mohair, or cotton?? I can post pictures of good quality hangers and ropes if you would like!


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## wild_spot

I have always wanted to buy a nice bosal and just have a play around, the good ones are hard to find here in Aus though. I just love the look of them and I think I would like how they feel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HighonEquine

Wanstrom, that would be great! I would love pictures. I'm having a hard time with the hanger. Do you have to make your own, or can you buy them? Reins, I think I would stick with cotton, or which ever is easier on the wallet.


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## LesandLily

mirage790 said:


> If someone told me I rode like a "cowboy" Id take it as a compliment!  (Hey, you've got to take them where you can find them.)


I don't think she meant is as a compliment. LOL. She is a show trainer and is really my daughter's trainer but to help my daughter (and just to get better) I have been taking lessons and they have really helped. I was always a rein rider, using little leg pressure and putting weight in the stirrups for anything fast (basically standing up) but I have chased cows, elk, buffalo, rode on packtrips and elk hunts and screwed around on horses for most of my life. I have ridden some pretty rank horses at times and in some pretty rough country and could "sure enough stay on" but I was never what you would call pretty. I have always had good balance though and apparently I wasn't as bad as she expected me to be. I have good soft hands and a good seat, I just need to learn (and make habit) the correct cues with my legs. 

I think playing with some of this "bridle horse" stuff will help and who knows, I may get hooked. 

Keep the info in this thread coming, I am learning alot. 

Cheers!
Les


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## BBBCrone

Okay thank you guys! I think I understand it now.


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## HighonEquine

What do you think of this one? I'm so unsure here! I don't want to buy something cheap that is going to rub the skin off his nose, but in no way could I afford a 100 dollar one at this point. I'm understanding that the more plaits the better. Is 16 on the nose and 12 on the cheek alright?

Natural Rawhide Bosal Nylon Mecate with Nylon Tassel for BITLESS Hackamore | eBay

I looked closer at the pictures.. and it looks like there are loose pieces of rawhide sticking out. I feel like that may be a bit.. CHEAP!


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## Wanstrom Horses

HighonEquine said:


> What do you think of this one? I'm so unsure here! I don't want to buy something cheap that is going to rub the skin off his nose, but in no way could I afford a 100 dollar one at this point. I'm understanding that the more plaits the better. Is 16 on the nose and 12 on the cheek alright?
> 
> Natural Rawhide Bosal Nylon Mecate with Nylon Tassel for BITLESS Hackamore | eBay
> 
> I looked closer at the pictures.. and it looks like there are loose pieces of rawhide sticking out. I feel like that may be a bit.. CHEAP!


Yeah, I would absolutely NOT buy that one. You'll find yourself buying another very soon. And that's actually very expensive for that bad of quality. As for your mecate goes, buy whatever has the best feel for you. It doesnt really matter, even a 22 foot piece of rope from the hardware store will work if its tied right lol. I use mane hair on all my bosals, they have the best feel for me, and I find you can teach a horse to neck rein a lot faster. But anything will work. I've added a few pictures of mane hair, mohair, cotton and yatch cord mecate ropes. I've posted some pictures of my favorite hangers and the olny ones I will use. And Ive posted a couple pics on telling the difference between cheap and decent. The first pic of the three bosals is the cheap ones, you can tell how they are almost "shiny" and are all crooked and not symmetrical. RUN from anything that looks like that. The second pic is of a nice, handbraided, bosal.


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## Wanstrom Horses

HighonEquine said:


> What do you think of this one? I'm so unsure here! I don't want to buy something cheap that is going to rub the skin off his nose, but in no way could I afford a 100 dollar one at this point. I'm understanding that the more plaits the better. Is 16 on the nose and 12 on the cheek alright?
> 
> Natural Rawhide Bosal Nylon Mecate with Nylon Tassel for BITLESS Hackamore | eBay
> 
> I looked closer at the pictures.. and it looks like there are loose pieces of rawhide sticking out. I feel like that may be a bit.. CHEAP!


Here, let me take a look on ebay and see if there's some decent stuff


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## Wanstrom Horses

HighonEquine said:


> What do you think of this one? I'm so unsure here! I don't want to buy something cheap that is going to rub the skin off his nose, but in no way could I afford a 100 dollar one at this point. I'm understanding that the more plaits the better. Is 16 on the nose and 12 on the cheek alright?
> 
> Natural Rawhide Bosal Nylon Mecate with Nylon Tassel for BITLESS Hackamore | eBay
> 
> I looked closer at the pictures.. and it looks like there are loose pieces of rawhide sticking out. I feel like that may be a bit.. CHEAP!


Well, I looked through there, and yes, all the good stuff is expensive lol. I found probably the best of the cheaper ones though. Granted it is a cheap made bosal, but this one seems to be the most symmetrical one there is. 

5 8" Western Bosal Noseband Braided Rawhide w Red Accents Training Show | eBay


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## Wanstrom Horses

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Well, I looked through there, and yes, all the good stuff is expensive lol. I found probably the best of the cheaper ones though. Granted it is a cheap made bosal, but this one seems to be the most symmetrical one there is.
> 
> 5 8" Western Bosal Noseband Braided Rawhide w Red Accents Training Show | eBay


Tell you what, where are you located?? I'd sell you a used one thats a decent, not cheap bosal. Not pretty, but functional


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## mirage790

HighonEquine said:


> What do you think of this one? I'm so unsure here! I don't want to buy something cheap that is going to rub the skin off his nose, but in no way could I afford a 100 dollar one at this point. I'm understanding that the more plaits the better. Is 16 on the nose and 12 on the cheek alright?
> 
> Natural Rawhide Bosal Nylon Mecate with Nylon Tassel for BITLESS Hackamore | eBay
> 
> I looked closer at the pictures.. and it looks like there are loose pieces of rawhide sticking out. I feel like that may be a bit.. CHEAP!


May I jump in and say I wouldn't get a nylon mecate without being able to feel it. The first one I bought was rather stiff and just wouldn't hang nicely and drove me crazy. My son is a rock climber so I had considered just purchasing the rope through him and finishing the ends myself, but then found a great deal on a used mane hair mecate. I like the mane hair because I think the horse is more sensitive to it's touch because they are kind of "prickly" feeling. But that may be all my imagination too. Some people like ones made of parachute chord and others like yacht rope, it's just personal preference.


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## AnrewPL

I agree, I have always preferred horse hair mecates and would’t bother with anything else. Surprisingly though I found plane old hemp rope to be not too bat too though. Years ago, it was all but impossible to get anything hackamore related in Australia and all I could do was make a mecate from hemp rope; it wasn’t that bad.


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## mirage790

AnrewPL said:


> I agree, I have always preferred horse hair mecates and would’t bother with anything else. Surprisingly though I found plane old hemp rope to be not too bat too though. Years ago, it was all but impossible to get anything hackamore related in Australia and all I could do was make a mecate from hemp rope; it wasn’t that bad.


Hadn't though of hemp rope. It wasn't too stiff? I used a heavy nylon one with my snaffle, but have the mane hair on my bosal. If I ever get another horse that I can finish in the bridle, I want a mohair get down. (What can I say, I love to dream!)


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## Wanstrom Horses

Yes, nylon sucks, I stick with either mane hair or a nice mohair every once in awhile.


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## AnrewPL

Nah, it didn’t seem that stiff, it might have been at first, or if it got rained on, but it wasn’t too bad, I can hardly remember it seems so long ago; but back then, without the internet it was all but impossible to get anything for a hackamore in Australia. Still, I’d prefer horse hair any day though.


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## AnrewPL

It might interest people to know something about the origins of bridle training horse too. 
The guy who taught me to do it taught me that originally the Spanish learned horsemanship from the Arabs that conquered half of Spain in the middle ages, the Spanish then took it to the New World, then it was perfected by the Californios. 
Anyway, I have just spent 14 months living with a tribe of Bedouin Arabs in Jordan and paid close attention to how they handle horses. Not a lot of them really know how to train horses in any traditional ways, but the father and a brother in the family that adopted me were really good. They have a system of training horses with something like a hackamore but made out of an olive branch held in place with a noseband, reins are attached to the olive branch which sits under the horse’s jaw. Once the horse is handling well in this set up they transfer it into either a little bit that kind of resembles a small spade bit without the braces, or a ring bit. They gave me one of the ring bits they made about 50 years ago, I’ll see if I can find a photo to post. 
It was just amazing to me to see that even after hundreds of years people were still using these kinds of methods of horse training.


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## Ripplewind

Subbing!


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## HighonEquine

I am located in NE Kansas. I would certainly love some help finding one! My horse has a rather large head though. Not draft big, but big. Will that be a problem? I have pictures of him if that would help. Thank you very much for your help!


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## mirage790

AnrewPL said:


> It might interest people to know something about the origins of bridle training horse too.
> The guy who taught me to do it taught me that originally the Spanish learned horsemanship from the Arabs that conquered half of Spain in the middle ages, the Spanish then took it to the New World, then it was perfected by the Californios.
> Anyway, I have just spent 14 months living with a tribe of Bedouin Arabs in Jordan and paid close attention to how they handle horses. Not a lot of them really know how to train horses in any traditional ways, but the father and a brother in the family that adopted me were really good. They have a system of training horses with something like a hackamore but made out of an olive branch held in place with a noseband, reins are attached to the olive branch which sits under the horse’s jaw. Once the horse is handling well in this set up they transfer it into either a little bit that kind of resembles a small spade bit without the braces, or a ring bit. They gave me one of the ring bits they made about 50 years ago, I’ll see if I can find a photo to post.
> It was just amazing to me to see that even after hundreds of years people were still using these kinds of methods of horse training.


WOW! How interesting! What an opportunity! I've always wondered how those ring bits worked. Never saw one actually on a horse.


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## AnrewPL

They go on just like most any other bit except that the ring goes around the horses jaw, I only ever used one in Jordan, and the one they gave me has a flat thin steel bar for the bar of the bit, so it would be an exceptionally harsh bit so I just keep it as a keep sake, I have no intention of using it. Generally though I was always taught that bits like a Chelano bit are only there to fix mistakes made in other bits, not really the kind of thing you would want to ride in unless you could help it (or if you didn’t have really good hands). I’d like to hear what Wanstrom thinks about them.


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## HighonEquine

I have a silly question .. how do you pronounce "Bosal"? Is it Bow-zell, Boss-all.. I have not the slightest clue! I don't want to walk into a tack shop pronouncing it incorrectly. That would be very embarrassing.


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## mirage790

HighonEquine said:


> I have a silly question .. how do you pronounce "Bosal"? Is it Bow-zell, Boss-all.. I have not the slightest clue! I don't want to walk into a tack shop pronouncing it incorrectly. That would be very embarrassing.


You pronounce it "bow-zell" (emphasis on last syllable) Mecate is pronounced differently in different parts of the country. Some people say "ma-kar-tee" but the correct Spanish pronunciation is "ma-ka-tay" (both emphasis on middle syllable).


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## AnrewPL

Here’s a picture of a Bedouin hackamore, you can see the olive branch that goes under the horse’s jaw. The other one is a couple of Bedouin bits, the one on the right is the one they gave me.


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## AnrewPL

this is the bits


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## westerncowgurl

im looking into buying a bosal too! im takeing a trip up to my fav tack store soon and might buy one, do you mind looking at the few they have here?
Bosals - Western Tack

i was looking at the $20 one because i thought hey bosal and the hanger for $20?? must be a good deal! until i read through this thread! lol and can you post pics or a video on how to put the reins on the bosal? thanks im loving this thread!!


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## mirage790

westerncowgurl said:


> im looking into buying a bosal too! im takeing a trip up to my fav tack store soon and might buy one, do you mind looking at the few they have here?
> Bosals - Western Tack
> 
> i was looking at the $20 one because i thought hey bosal and the hanger for $20?? must be a good deal! until i read through this thread! lol and can you post pics or a video on how to put the reins on the bosal? thanks im loving this thread!!


here's one I found on YouTube, There are a lot more, but I recognize this guy but I cna't think of his name right now.


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## westerncowgurl

mirage790 said:


> here's one I found on YouTube, There are a lot more, but I recognize this guy but I cna't think of his name right now.
> 
> How to Tie the Macate to the Hackamore or Bosal - YouTube


 
thanks! i wanna watch it now but saddly my christmas holidays over and i have school  but you bet ill be watching it first thing when i get home! 
is it sad that im super excited about this? and i dont have any horsey friends to talk about it with haha


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## Wanstrom Horses

Anrew, that's fascinating. I do own one chileno ring bit, Garcia brand, made in Elko, Nevada. Looks like my bridle bits, but has the jaw ring. I've only used it a few times. I really don't care for riding with them unless I have a horse that needs some correction in their stop. Gotta be gentle with them though, take the power of the spade and times it by 10, then you have a ring bit. But they work wonders on horses that need to collect in their stop and carry the bit right through a stop though. 

Westerncowgurl, if you can afford it, buy the 60 dollar one. That will serve you and your horse better in the long run.


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## mirage790

westerncowgurl said:


> thanks! i wanna watch it now but saddly my christmas holidays over and i have school  but you bet ill be watching it first thing when i get home!
> is it sad that im super excited about this? and i dont have any horsey friends to talk about it with haha


That's my problem too, none of my friends are horsey and I think I sometimes bored them to tears more than once over the years! :shock: And my husband, God bless his soul, is just totally clueless about it all, even after being married to me for over half of his lifetime. :? Even both of my kids never got interested in horses but just humor their horse-crazy mother. So that's why I joined this forum, to talk horses with people who actually GET IT! Heck, I've been working with horses my whole adult life, and a bit before that, and I still get excited about horses! :lol:


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## oobiedoo

Really liked the video on tying the mecate, I think I could do it and thats saying a lot because at pushing 60 I'm just finally getting left and right down
So if I understand this right I would need to buy 1-bosal 2-hanger 3- mecate? Then I have a hackemore? When I put it all together?
I might have missed this but it looks to me like the bosal only comes in one size? So you would adjust the fit with the hanger?


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## Wanstrom Horses

oobiedoo said:


> Really liked the video on tying the mecate, I think I could do it and thats saying a lot because at pushing 60 I'm just finally getting left and right down
> So if I understand this right I would need to buy 1-bosal 2-hanger 3- mecate? Then I have a hackemore? When I put it all together?
> I might have missed this but it looks to me like the bosal only comes in one size? So you would adjust the fit with the hanger?


Yes, bosal, hanger and mecate all make up a bosal. There are ways to shape a bosal, for instance, tying a wooden block in the bosal is one way. I'll post pictures in just a minute. You can adjust where the bosal sits on a horses face with the hanger, but you have to shape the bosal to the horses face. Hang on a sec and I'll get pictures put together!


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## Wanstrom Horses

*Bosal Shaping*

Here's an example of shaping a bosal, I'll try and get a video going in the next couple of days of shaping a bosal, tying mecate, etc.


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## oobiedoo

So really once you do this that bosal is for that particular horse? Can you change the shape easily again if you wanted to use the bosal on a different horse?, Do you have a different one for every horse you ride?


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## Wanstrom Horses

oobiedoo said:


> So really once you do this that bosal is for that particular horse? Can you change the shape easily again if you wanted to use the bosal on a different horse?, Do you have a different one for every horse you ride?


I probably have, sheesh, 25 hackamores. But normally, once the bosal is shaped it will fit a few different horses. The more its shaped, the easier it is to fit to a horses head. If I need a minor adjustment to my older bosals, I just rub some rawhide cream on them and bend them with my hands.


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## Muppetgirl

Geez....I can't even keep up with this thread.....Wanstrom you must be going cross eyed! :shock:


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## Wanstrom Horses

*Hobbles*

In my opinion, hobbles are a fundamental training tool not old for my bridle/ranch horses, but for any discipline. I teach hobble training sometime even before my colts are fully broke to lead. I tend to use a "step up" system for hobble training. I start my horses out with soft cotton rope, get them used to giving to pressure on their legs and standing still when they feel pressure on their legs. Then I move them to cotton hobbles. I'll often let them stand tied with a pair of soft cotton hobbles on, for instance while I'm riding other horses. When they respect the cotton hobbles, I move to a leather, buckle style hobble. After using those for a month or so, when they have fully learned to respect the hobbles with no issues, I move them to rawhide, then they are "finished hobble horses". I believe all horses need to be hobble trained. It teaches them so much. You can teach a horse how to stand when being mounted, stand to be shod, stand tied to the trailer, stand with out pawing and so much more once they are hobble broke. I find hobbles a necessity to any training program.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Hehe, sorry, I'll slow down!


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## Muppetgirl

No don't slow down, I'm getting my hair done on Wednesday, which is painfully slow, so I will catch up then!


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## Wanstrom Horses

Muppetgirl said:


> No don't slow down, I'm getting my hair done on Wednesday, which is painfully slow, so I will catch up then!


Okydokie


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## Muppetgirl

Speaking of hobbles....I work with someone who moves like she's wearing a pair of hobbles! Lol!

But, yes I do like it when horses have been hobble trained! You can teach them soo much when you make them responsible for what their legs are doing!

Do you ever use sideline hobbles?


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## Wanstrom Horses

Muppetgirl said:


> Speaking of hobbles....I work with someone who moves like she's wearing a pair of hobbles! Lol!
> 
> But, yes I do like it when horses have been hobble trained! You can teach them soo much when you make them responsible for what their legs are doing!
> 
> Do you ever use sideline hobbles?


Yes! Since I shoe my own horses, I like to sideline hobble the first timers for awhile before I shoe them to make it a bit easier. For those of you who may not know what we are reffering to, I added a picture!


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## Muppetgirl

Those are nice hobbles! 

I worked at a Holstein WB stud, primarily dressage and jumping. All the horses were started on the stud and hobble trained....sidelined first then front. It was so effective at teaching a horse to stand, that two days into starting the horses, myself and another girl walked out to the pasture to catch the two geldings that the stud owner and ourselves were working with and when I snapped the lead shank onto the halter the horse spooked and ran......after a second of 'oh crap!' I raised my hand and said 'stand' and he stopped stock still......they are a really really really good tool to have in your tool box!

Note: the horses were left on the hills until they were four, apart from being run through a crush to be drenched...so they were virtually untouched - how a baby should be


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## Wanstrom Horses

*Standing Tied.*

I know I may get bashed a little bit for this method. But in my experiences, it has been the only way that I have taught a horse with ground tying problems to stand tied. Below is a picture of a sorrel mare brought to me this last July. She was a 12 year old Peppy San Badger horse off the Moorhouse ranch in Texas. "Sorrely" was one of the nastiest, mean spirited horses I have encountered. She bucked, she reared, she blew back, she kicked, she would chase her previous owner around the round pen and try to tromple her, she would try and kick you while you were on her back, she wouldnt load and she definatly wouldnt stand tied. This is the only horse in all my experiences to break a rope halter. Anyways, I learned this from a really good old cowboy friend of mine. I took a grass rope with a tied hondo and a leather burner. (only because grass ropes are a little bit softer and easier to tie). I slid it up to the horse's flanks and positioned the hondo under her belly. Then I ran the rope between her front legs, through the rope halter and to the hitching rail. I then tied the halter with a lot more slack left in it than the rope. As sure enough as soon as Ol' Sorrely yanked back on the halter, that belly rope piched her flanks and she came forward. She then proceeded to pull back twice more, then she quit and the horse hasnt even pulled a rope tight since. 1st picture is of Sorrely figuring out what just happened and the second is of the same horse, 45 days later when her owner came to get back on her for the first time since she was sent to me.  This method may seen harsh, but I find it effective and use it on all horses that pull back.


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## oobiedoo

Ok, am I not getting the picture or did you trade her for a corvette?


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## Muppetgirl

Oh no not harsh at all, I've seen it done before, works very well if you're good with ropes! Little Sorrely is a good useful horse now. Sometimes I have done the same thing, but instead of it sitting in the flank I had it at the girth....but before I do that I try a bum rope first....and if that doesn't work it's the girth...I haven't had to do the flank.....yet

I have a tack chest full of thick soft cotton lunging lines that I found on sale at a tack store.....I am no good at rebranding rope but I want to take them and get the snaps removed and some big rings put on.....they're perfect for this kind of dtuff


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## mirage790

oobiedoo said:


> Really liked the video on tying the mecate, I think I could do it and thats saying a lot because at pushing 60 I'm just finally getting left and right down
> So if I understand this right I would need to buy 1-bosal 2-hanger 3- mecate? Then I have a hackemore? When I put it all together?
> I might have missed this but it looks to me like the bosal only comes in one size? So you would adjust the fit with the hanger?


We've in the same boat then, I AM 60. They say the mind is the first to go, but I think my body if going first. My brain still thinks I'm young but my body keeps trying to tell me, "Oh no you're not!" My brain says, "Cool! You can do that!" and afterwards my body says, "OMG, what WERE you thinking?" lol So now I'm considering and checking into adopting a wild mustang from the BLM. Yup, I need my head examined!


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## deserthorsewoman

I found out with my horse what a strategically used long rope can accomplish.
I sort of rescued a TB gelding, who had raced flat and steeplechase, became a jumper, then a schoolhorse then ended up in a bad situation. Once he was back in good condition, he turned out to be downright dangerous. For mounting I had to tie him in the barn, no weight in the stirrup, somebody had to, once I was up, open the barndoor, and we shot out in a dead run until we hit the closest fence. He wouldn't load either, stood in front of the ramp and flat out refused to step up.
I found a western trainer and after barely a month, this horse would stand for mounting no matter what. I kept aside asking how she managed to get him to do this, she told me about two years later( I was the typical English rider...don't hurt my horse lol).
They tied a long soft rope to his front pastern, she mounted, her partner had the rope, horse started walking off, partner pulled the leg out from under him, he stuck his nose in the sand TWICE and never walked off anymore. 
For loading, they put a long rope through the tie ring in the trailer and out, stood behind my horse and just held the rope tight. After about 5 minutes horse gave to the pressure and stepped up. Never again a problem with loading. Horse became a very useful and well educated citizen.


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## mirage790

oobiedoo said:


> So really once you do this that bosal is for that particular horse? Can you change the shape easily again if you wanted to use the bosal on a different horse?, Do you have a different one for every horse you ride?


If Wanstrom already answered this, just ignore me, but I think the three hackamores confused you. If you look there are three different sizes so a horse can be put in a progressively lighter one as his bosal training advances.


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## mirage790

Wanstrom Horses said:


> In my opinion, hobbles are a fundamental training tool not old for my bridle/ranch horses, but for any discipline. I teach hobble training sometime even before my colts are fully broke to lead. I tend to use a "step up" system for hobble training. I start my horses out with soft cotton rope, get them used to giving to pressure on their legs and standing still when they feel pressure on their legs. Then I move them to cotton hobbles. I'll often let them stand tied with a pair of soft cotton hobbles on, for instance while I'm riding other horses. When they respect the cotton hobbles, I move to a leather, buckle style hobble. After using those for a month or so, when they have fully learned to respect the hobbles with no issues, I move them to rawhide, then they are "finished hobble horses". I believe all horses need to be hobble trained. It teaches them so much. You can teach a horse how to stand when being mounted, stand to be shod, stand tied to the trailer, stand with out pawing and so much more once they are hobble broke. I find hobbles a necessity to any training program.


So here is a BIG hole in my old guys training. But he was started English and they don't tend to use hobbles so the thought never occurred to me. Mental note to self: add hobble training to the list.


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## mirage790

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Yes! Since I shoe my own horses, I like to sideline hobble the first timers for awhile before I shoe them to make it a bit easier. For those of you who may not know what we are reffering to, I added a picture!


Ah-ha... Branaman mentions these in one of his videos. He says he uses them for some horses who have learned to hop with their front legs in hobbles, and they can get quite a distance away from camp over night, so he uses this configuration on those horses.


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## BBBCrone

mirage790 said:


> We've in the same boat then, I AM 60. They say the mind is the first to go, but I think my body if going first. My brain still thinks I'm young but my body keeps trying to tell me, "Oh no you're not!" My brain says, "Cool! You can do that!" and afterwards my body says, "OMG, what WERE you thinking?" lol So now I'm considering and checking into adopting a wild mustang from the BLM. Yup, I need my head examined!


What an awesome image I have in my head. A bridle trained Mustang.

okay ... romance button is off now.


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## mirage790

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I know I may get bashed a little bit for this method. But in my experiences, it has been the only way that I have taught a horse with ground tying problems to stand tied. Below is a picture of a sorrel mare brought to me this last July. She was a 12 year old Peppy San Badger horse off the Moorhouse ranch in Texas. "Sorrely" was one of the nastiest, mean spirited horses I have encountered. She bucked, she reared, she blew back, she kicked, she would chase her previous owner around the round pen and try to tromple her, she would try and kick you while you were on her back, she wouldnt load and she definatly wouldnt stand tied. This is the only horse in all my experiences to break a rope halter. Anyways, I learned this from a really good old cowboy friend of mine. I took a grass rope with a tied hondo and a leather burner. (only because grass ropes are a little bit softer and easier to tie). I slid it up to the horse's flanks and positioned the hondo under her belly. Then I ran the rope between her front legs, through the rope halter and to the hitching rail. I then tied the halter with a lot more slack left in it than the rope. As sure enough as soon as Ol' Sorrely yanked back on the halter, that belly rope piched her flanks and she came forward. She then proceeded to pull back twice more, then she quit and the horse hasnt even pulled a rope tight since. 1st picture is of Sorrely figuring out what just happened and the second is of the same horse, 45 days later when her owner came to get back on her for the first time since she was sent to me.  This method may seen harsh, but I find it effective and use it on all horses that pull back.


No, not harsh considering the horse it was used on and why it was used. You have to use totally different methods for spoiled horses than what you would use on a young one that just plain didn't know anything yet. 

I had purchased a spoiled mare whose owners were afraid of. In a herd, she would definitely have been the lead mare. My uncle had bred her and I trained her when I rode his horses back in my high school years. I LOVED that horse! When he sold her years later I couldn't afford her, and I knew he was offering me a heck of a deal! She was a BEAUTIFUL Saddlebred, a Wing Commander grand-daughter, foaled in 1966. (If you don't know anything about Saddlebreds, Wing Commander was the record holder for winning 6 Five-Gaited World Grand Championships back in the 1940s, the first of only two horses to accomplish this, so his bloodlines were in high demand to say the least.) I found her advertized on the local tack shop bulletin board for dirt cheap when she was 13 and of course I just HAD to buy her! Just after I got her I found out I was pregnant for my first, so I thought I'd work with her easy until after the baby and then start the real retraining. Well, one day I was late for work and in a hurry, she was in the barn (a open area I had because you couldn't lock her in a stall because she'd panic) eating her grain. I knew better than to get between her and the open door, but like I said, I was in a hurry and she was busy eating so stupid me thought I could quickly sneak out the door with the hay to throw to the other horse outside. I never heard her coming! She hit me in the back knocking me flat right in the doorway, and jumped over me to get out. I was 5 months along at that time, so my husband put his foot down and sold her to the first people that came along. To this day it makes me sad because even though they said they were buying her for a doctor up state to use for breeding, I'm sure they were killers. Who else would say they didn't need her registration papers? (big long sigh) Ah, but I'm rambling again...


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## mirage790

BBBCrone said:


> What an awesome image I have in my head. A bridle trained Mustang.
> 
> okay ... romance button is off now.


They already exist! And they're beautiful!! Go to YouTube and put "Extreme Mustang Makeover" in the search and you'll see videos you won't believe! These trainers take a wild mustang, fresh off the range, and have 100 days to train it and show it in this competition. You won't believe what they are able to do with these horses! 

And NO...I have no ambition to enter the Extreme Mustang Makeover. If I decide to get one, I'll need to take a lot more than 100 days! lol I thought it would give me something to do when I retire.


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## Wanstrom Horses

My husband and I got into the TIP (trainer incentive program) for the blm a couple years ago. They pay you to gentle mustangs and find an adopter. But anyways, they are actually super easy to train! Its a clean slate, nobody has messed them up and you can start fresh and not miss a beat in the training program.


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## deserthorsewoman

Wanstrom Horses said:


> My husband and I got into the TIP (trainer incentive program) for the blm a couple years ago. They pay you to gentle mustangs and find an adopter. But anyways, they are actually super easy to train! Its a clean slate, nobody has messed them up and you can start fresh and not miss a beat in the training program.


 How much are they going for once they're trained? And what do they "know"? Greenbroke, or just " gentled "?


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## Wanstrom Horses

Well ususally they are jsut gentle, halter broke, loads ect. But most would come back to us to make bridle horses for the owners that adopted them.


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## deserthorsewoman

Ah, thanks


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## mirage790

deserthorsewoman said:


> How much are they going for once they're trained? And what do they "know"? Greenbroke, or just " gentled "?


From what I understand, they know nothing. They were gathered, inspected, vaccinated, and freeze branded, and that's it. (There are a few that are gentled and started under saddle in a prison program and they go for about $250) Opening bid on them is $125 and that's what most go for, unless they are Keiger Mustangs. (purest DNA that traces back to the Spanish horses because of the isolated mountain area they were in, no escaped or released settler, miner, or ranch horses blood mixed in like with a lot of the other bands in the desert) Keigers can for a several thousand when they are gathered (I think only about once every 4-5 years?). You will find people are breeding them now and they are a registered breed, which probably accounts for their expensiveness. The BLM has facilities throughout the US where they will deliver them and you can pick them up there. You don't have to go to the holding facilities out west if you don't live out there. They have very specific requirements to be approved for adopting one about YOUR facilities (they don't want this horse getting away!) and even the trailer you pick it up in. You can go to their holding facilities and horses that have not been adopted in 3 adoptions can be purchased outright. They are usually the older ones because everyone wants the 1 and 2 year olds. (I've been watching the online auctions for the past year.) But for those you have to go in person to pay and sign for the horse, you can't send a representative. Anyway, they have all this info on their web site at: 

https://www.blm.gov/adoptahorse/index.php


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## Wanstrom Horses

Yes, if you adopt them through the BLM, they are wild. But I was talking about the Trainer Incentive Program. You can adopt them gentle from a TIP in your area. I really like working with the BLM in the TIP program. We usually get about 5 or 6 a year old gentle and find adopters for and the BLM pays us 700 a horse to gentle it. Its a great program!!


----------



## deserthorsewoman

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Yes, if you adopt them through the BLM, they are wild. But I was talking about the Trainer Incentive Program. You can adopt them gentle from a TIP in your area. I really like working with the BLM in the TIP program. We usually get about 5 or 6 a year old gentle and find adopters for and the BLM pays us 700 a horse to gentle it. Its a great program!!


I was just gonna say that
I've been watching the auctions off and on for a while too and found several to drool over. I don't have the facilities for a "wild" one, so TIP would be the way to go for me.
But.....knowing me and my luck, I'd find another Arab in the meantimelol........
Which brings me to another question. Have you ever trained an Arab as a bridle horse, and if so, were there any problems or things you've done different?


----------



## mirage790

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Yes, if you adopt them through the BLM, they are wild. But I was talking about the Trainer Incentive Program. You can adopt them gentle from a TIP in your area. I really like working with the BLM in the TIP program. We usually get about 5 or 6 a year old gentle and find adopters for and the BLM pays us 700 a horse to gentle it. Its a great program!!


I couldn't figure out what you were talking about at first because I had never read about that program on the BLM web site, so I googled it. I get it now! It's not a BLM program, it's through the Mustang Heritage Foundation in partnership with the BLM. That makes sense, I was a little confused for a bit there. Sounds like a great program for those like deserthorsewoman who may not want to do the initial gentling work. Glad I know about it now!


----------



## BBBCrone

deserthorsewoman said:


> Which brings me to another question. Have you ever trained an Arab as a bridle horse, and if so, were there any problems or things you've done different?


I ran across this breeder when I was looking into Arab pedigrees.

Varian Arabians - Home

And I believe her stallion Maclintock V is trained in vaquero tradition. There's some stuff on wikipedia about her and who her mentors were but not sure if all that's true since I don't know who wrote it all up *shrugs*


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## deserthorsewoman

Oh, it is true. She breeds outstanding performance horses, not "only" western. 
Are you referring to her showing Ronteza in working cowhorse?


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## BBBCrone

No no ... I meant her stallion Maclintock V. Dang .. there was a video of him and I can't find it now. But anyway, more referring to the fact that he was Vaquero style trained. BUT since you mentioned Rotenza, I went digging her up. How cool is that!


----------



## deserthorsewoman

:shock:Just went on her sales page...........of course I pick the 80000$ filly.....


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## deserthorsewoman

My little avatar gelding is sire's sire and dam's sire line all Varian bred....normally for English Pleasure.....which doesn't mean much, since all V-stallions sire both, English and Western....


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## BBBCrone

deserthorsewoman said:


> :shock:Just went on her sales page...........of course I pick the 80000$ filly.....


LOL You're like me. Too bad I can't afford my tastes!


----------



## mirage790

BBBCrone said:


> I ran across this breeder when I was looking into Arab pedigrees.
> 
> Varian Arabians - Home
> 
> And I believe her stallion Maclintock V is trained in vaquero tradition. There's some stuff on wikipedia about her and who her mentors were but not sure if all that's true since I don't know who wrote it all up *shrugs*


OMG, I remember following Sheila Varian back in the early '70s. I was in love with Bay-el-Bey!


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## deserthorsewoman

Lucky You
All I could do is admire from a distance....you can imagine my face seeing my boy's papers with him twice close up, plus all the other famous ones I only knew from pictures....


----------



## mirage790

deserthorsewoman said:


> :shock:Just went on her sales page...........of course I pick the 80000$ filly.....


Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. There are many things that are grossly over priced, but people will pay it for the status of owning it.


----------



## mirage790

deserthorsewoman said:


> Lucky You
> All I could do is admire from a distance....you can imagine my face seeing my boy's papers with him twice close up, plus all the other famous ones I only knew from pictures....


I only followed her in the horse magazines, I think it was Arabian Horse World. I subscribed to a lot of horse magazines back in those days when there was no internet to get your information from.


----------



## deserthorsewoman

mirage790 said:


> Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. There are many things that are grossly over priced, but people will pay it for the status of owning it.


that is so true. 
I did look at the horse first, then the price and me liking the most expensive happens a lot
But that doesn't mean I'd spend the money lol


----------



## mirage790

deserthorsewoman said:


> that is so true.
> I did look at the horse first, then the price and me liking the most expensive happens a lot
> But that doesn't mean I'd spend the money lol


I do that a lot too, with tack as well as horses! We just have a good eye for quality, I guess. 

I see you live in California, so check this out... 

A Light Hands Horsemanship Clinic is going to held at Intrepid Farms, 3215 Roblar Rd., Santa Ynez, CA. on May 30-June 2, 2013 and Sheila Varian is going to be there along with 8 other clinicians!!

"This is just the icing on the cake! For years we had wanted famed horsewoman Sheila Varian to join us at Light Hands Horsemanship. Sheila is a very busy woman but this year the stars aligned and the LHH dates and Sheila's schedule worked out. Sheila is a well respected horsewoman of the Vaquero Tradition. She has a wealth of knowledge about the Vaquero’s early California history. I have seen one of her presentations on the “two rein” and it was exceptional. She will also be sharing a few stories from her life at the "Campfire" as an avid horsewoman and breeder and exhibitor for over 50 years of beautiful Varian Arabian Horses.

"Sheila has a long and illustrious career in the horse industry. She has bred and continues to breed some of the finest Arabian horses in the world. Her blood lines have worn the roses in all divisions from western and english to halter. Being a breeder and competitor in the show ring is just one of the many highlights in Sheila's career. Sheila has so many honors that I would have to start a whole new blog just too list them all. One of her top honors was to be inducted into the Cowgirl Hall of Fame in Fort Worth, TX in 2003.

"This is one “cowgirl” you don’t want to miss!"

Lighthandshorsemanship.com - An Invitation To An Adventure In Lightness

Too bad California is pretty much on the opposite side of the country from me.


----------



## mirage790

I remember back in the late 60s early 70s Sheila Varian training her horse Bay Abi to be a reining horse, and not only was the Arabian world in an uproar, so was the whole western training world! And oh my gosh, she rode her show horse out on the trails! Horrors!! :lol:


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

deserthorsewoman said:


> I was just gonna say that
> I've been watching the auctions off and on for a while too and found several to drool over. I don't have the facilities for a "wild" one, so TIP would be the way to go for me.
> But.....knowing me and my luck, I'd find another Arab in the meantimelol........
> Which brings me to another question. Have you ever trained an Arab as a bridle horse, and if so, were there any problems or things you've done different?


I did start a two year old Arabian gelding last year for a lady. I just got him to the hackamore stage for her, but I didn't really see that much difference in an Arab than a QH or a paint as far as training goes. I did have to be a little easier on him with roping only because he was fine boned and it was tough to get a saddle to fit him lol, but other than that, not much different at all. I've started a lot of different breeds and I find most breeds to really be the same, gaited breeds tend to be a tad bit different only due to the way they carry themselves.


----------



## equiniphile

I've really grown to love Varian Arabs. My mare is by Sundance Kid V, and my colt is a grandson of Desperado V. His sire is simply a fantastic horse to work with. 

Wanstrom, thank you so much for taking the time to explain things on this thread. I may have missed it, but are you going to cover romal reins and how to tell the good from the bad? I drool over the $900 romal reins in the Schneider's catalog but would love to know what makes them worth that much.


----------



## deserthorsewoman

I'll print and frame that.....for the next time people start bashing Arabs for ranch work, or work period
Thanks


----------



## AnrewPL

I’ve never understood the Arab bashing or the ideas people have about their temperament. The Bedouin I lived with have heaps of them and they were mostly some of the kindest, most well behaved and gentle horses I have ever seen.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

I'm not one to bash any breeds lol. I think there are bad horses and good horses in every breed, but they really are all just horses


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

equiniphile said:


> I've really grown to love Varian Arabs. My mare is by Sundance Kid V, and my colt is a grandson of Desperado V. His sire is simply a fantastic horse to work with.
> 
> Wanstrom, thank you so much for taking the time to explain things on this thread. I may have missed it, but are you going to cover romal reins and how to tell the good from the bad? I drool over the $900 romal reins in the Schneider's catalog but would love to know what makes them worth that much.


Yes, I will go over that tonight, thanks for giving me an idea!


----------



## deserthorsewoman

Two more to print and frame for those who think Arabs "taste like chicken"......

I agree, there are good and bad examples in any breed.


----------



## mirage790

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I did start a two year old Arabian gelding last year for a lady. I just got him to the hackamore stage for her, but I didn't really see that much difference in an Arab than a QH or a paint as far as training goes. I did have to be a little easier on him with roping only because he was fine boned and it was tough to get a saddle to fit him lol, but other than that, not much different at all. I've started a lot of different breeds and I find most breeds to really be the same, gaited breeds tend to be a tad bit different only due to the way they carry themselves.


I enjoyed working with the Arabians at a local show barn that was in the area, even though I didn't like the trainer's techniques at all! :-x He used to tie their reins with their noses pulled around to the stirrup of the saddle and put them in the stall that way to stand for hours. He said it was a short cut to teach them to flex and learn to give to the bit. Yeah right, he ended up with a lot of sore horses. I'm surprised I stuck it out for a year and a half, but all I did was clean stalls and groom horses. And I was supposed to lunge the horses when he was gone to a show but I would gave the horses a break and let them run free in the arena and just be horses.  Probably would have been fired if he found out, but I didn't care.


----------



## mirage790

This quote came up on my Facebook News Feed this morning and I just wanted to share it. 

“You know a horse is pretty sensitive. A horse can feel a mosquito land on their butt in a windstorm.” - Buck Brannaman

Wise words to never forget when working with our horses and riding them!


----------



## Cherie

I have been following this thread.

I do have to comment on Sheila Varian and Ronteza. It was Ronteza that won the Reined Cowhorse Championship at the Cow Palace and not Bay Abi. I believe she won the Cow Palace in 1960 or 1961. Ronteza was a very noted Spade Bit horse. She was sired by the Polish import, Witez II brought in by General Patton from Poland.

Bay Abi was her stallion, He was a National Champion Halter stallion and not a Reined Cowhorse. He was shown in English Pleasure (Saddle Seat) and in Western Pleasure. He did not have the movement to be successful in Park classes, but did sire several Park horses. I hauled several mares to him in the late 60s and early 70s. Ronteza was always my favorite of all of Sheila's horses. 

I do not not recall anyone ridiculing Sheila or her horses for showing all breed competitions like the Cow Palace and only recall the many articles praising her and her accomplishments. I remember her coming to big Estes Park Arabian shows in the 60s and she was always introduced as the owner of Ronteza that won the all-breed competitions with her in Reined Cowhorse competition. She was written up many times in the Arabian Magazines and the Western Horseman, always with great praise. Her accolades were very well deserved.

Sheila and her mother, Wenona, were always great advocates for working cattle and riding the big pastures on the Varian Ranch and other big ranches using only their Arabians. Sheila rode all of her horses out.

I trained many Arabians to race in the early 70s, including one the the most famous of all time, a horse named Kontiki. I also trained Arabians for Tish Hewitt, owner of Friendship Farms in Moline, IL. [She was the heiress to the John Deere Tractor fortune and a leading Arabian breeder.] I did not run into very many Arabian people that ridiculed the Arabians on the race track. The TB people were another matter. They ridiculed their speed ( or actually, their lack there-of.)

Just had to clarify Bay Abi and Ronteza. Loved them both.


----------



## deserthorsewoman

mirage790 said:


> This quote came up on my Facebook News Feed this morning and I just wanted to share it.
> 
> “You know a horse is pretty sensitive. A horse can feel a mosquito land on their butt in a windstorm.” - Buck Brannaman
> 
> Wise words to never forget when working with our horses and riding them!


^^THAT'S what I keep telling people who literally beat their horses on the neck for praise......


----------



## deserthorsewoman

Cherie said:


> I have been following this thread.
> 
> I do have to comment on Sheila Varian and Ronteza. It was Ronteza that won the Reined Cowhorse Championship at the Cow Palace and not Bay Abi. I believe she won the Cow Palace in 1960 or 1961. Ronteza was a very noted Spade Bit horse. She was sired by the Polish import, Witez II brought in by General Patton from Poland.
> 
> Bay Abi was her stallion, He was a National Champion Halter stallion and not a Reined Cowhorse. He was shown in English Pleasure (Saddle Seat) and in Western Pleasure. He did not have the movement to be successful in Park classes, but did sire several Park horses. I hauled several mares to him in the late 60s and early 70s. Ronteza was always my favorite of all of Sheila's horses.
> 
> I do not not recall anyone ridiculing Sheila or her horses for showing all breed competitions like the Cow Palace and only recall the many articles praising her and her accomplishments. I remember her coming to big Estes Park Arabian shows in the 60s and she was always introduced as the owner of Ronteza that won the all-breed competitions with her in Reined Cowhorse competition. She was written up many times in the Arabian Magazines and the Western Horseman, always with great praise. Her accolades were very well deserved.
> 
> Sheila and her mother, Wenona, were always great advocates for working cattle and riding the big pastures on the Varian Ranch and other big ranches using only their Arabians. Sheila rode all of her horses out.
> 
> I trained many Arabians to race in the early 70s, including one the the most famous of all time, a horse named Kontiki. I also trained Arabians for Tish Hewitt, owner of Friendship Farms in Moline, IL. [She was the heiress to the John Deere Tractor fortune and a leading Arabian breeder.] I did not run into very many Arabian people that ridiculed the Arabians on the race track. The TB people were another matter. They ridiculed their speed ( or actually, their lack there-of.)
> 
> Just had to clarify Bay Abi and Ronteza. Loved them both.


It was 1961
I second the prejudice of the TB people. I boarded for a while at a TB breeder/trainer/jockey. I had two two year old Arabian colts, and the BO offered to pasture them with his colts. Pasture was about a mile and a half long. The herd started running all the way down and back. Then the TB's stopped, my colts went 3 more times, in a full gallop. BO mumbled.." da**ed Arabs" and later on asked if I would consider putting them in training with him.
I couldn't, it was too much hassle with his amateur license, and regulations with the German Arab association.


----------



## BBBCrone

deserthorsewoman said:


> ^^THAT'S what I keep telling people who literally beat their horses on the neck for praise......


What is it with that? Hubby and I were watching jumping the other day and seemed like after every clean round there was a "beating" LOL. I mean obviously it wasn't meant that way but DANG they praised "hard".

:shock:


----------



## LesandLily

BBBCrone said:


> What is it with that? Hubby and I were watching jumping the other day and seemed like after every clean round there was a "beating" LOL. I mean obviously it wasn't meant that way but DANG they praised "hard".
> 
> :shock:


"You should never do anything great in sports if you can't handle the congratulations!" John madden in the Replacements. 

Cheers!
Les


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## deserthorsewoman

Les, im not so sure the horses read that lol;-)


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## bmm45bm

subbing


----------



## mirage790

Cherie said:


> I have been following this thread.
> 
> I do have to comment on Sheila Varian and Ronteza. It was Ronteza that won the Reined Cowhorse Championship at the Cow Palace and not Bay Abi. I believe she won the Cow Palace in 1960 or 1961. Ronteza was a very noted Spade Bit horse. She was sired by the Polish import, Witez II brought in by General Patton from Poland.
> 
> Bay Abi was her stallion, He was a National Champion Halter stallion and not a Reined Cowhorse. He was shown in English Pleasure (Saddle Seat) and in Western Pleasure. He did not have the movement to be successful in Park classes, but did sire several Park horses. I hauled several mares to him in the late 60s and early 70s. Ronteza was always my favorite of all of Sheila's horses.
> 
> I do not not recall anyone ridiculing Sheila or her horses for showing all breed competitions like the Cow Palace and only recall the many articles praising her and her accomplishments. I remember her coming to big Estes Park Arabian shows in the 60s and she was always introduced as the owner of Ronteza that won the all-breed competitions with her in Reined Cowhorse competition. She was written up many times in the Arabian Magazines and the Western Horseman, always with great praise. Her accolades were very well deserved.
> 
> Sheila and her mother, Wenona, were always great advocates for working cattle and riding the big pastures on the Varian Ranch and other big ranches using only their Arabians. Sheila rode all of her horses out.
> 
> I trained many Arabians to race in the early 70s, including one the the most famous of all time, a horse named Kontiki. I also trained Arabians for Tish Hewitt, owner of Friendship Farms in Moline, IL. [She was the heiress to the John Deere Tractor fortune and a leading Arabian breeder.] I did not run into very many Arabian people that ridiculed the Arabians on the race track. The TB people were another matter. They ridiculed their speed ( or actually, their lack there-of.)
> 
> Just had to clarify Bay Abi and Ronteza. Loved them both.


Thanks for the corrections on which horse did the reining, my bad! 

I did read some articles by QH people who said criticized her saying Arabians were much too delicate and light boned (they apparently didn't know that Arabian has the densest bone of any breed) for working cattle, and didn't have "cow sense," etc. But they never said an Arab wasn't quick enough! lol Here in Michigan in those days, if it was western it was only QH!

And I only speak from personal experience with the Arab people I worked with in my area who thought it ridiculous that she rode her SHOW HORSE out on the trails, erc. Show horses (and not just Arabians, but other breeds too) in my area lived their lives in stalls and arenas. Heaven forbid they go outside because they might get hurt or blemished in some way! So this may have only been a regional thing, but it existed. Some show horses had a sad existence. I once visited a Saddlebred show barn when I was about 16, being a big Saddlebred fan back then. As I was looking at the horses and talking with their trainer, Mr. Jones, the owner came in and saw me reach through the stall bars and pet a mare on the nose. She yelled, "DON'T touch that horse! These are show horses, NOT pets! They have to WORK for a living!" I was almost in tears when she left. Mr. Jones said for me to go ahead and pet them all I wanted to because they thrived it...just don't let the boss see you doing it! He said, heck if he didn't love on them they wouldn't do anything for him. That was MY introduction to the world of show horses! And the Arabian people around here that I worked for had pretty much the same attitude. It wasn't for the love of the horses, it was for the ribbons and accolades.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying they were ALL this way, but too many of them were.


----------



## mirage790

deserthorsewoman said:


> ^^THAT'S what I keep telling people who literally beat their horses on the neck for praise......


LOL!! It never ceases to amaze me when I see people doing that! :-o The poor horse is probably thinking, "Well, I guess I won't do it that way again!"


----------



## mirage790

LesandLily said:


> "You should never do anything great in sports if you can't handle the congratulations!" John madden in the Replacements.
> 
> Cheers!
> Les


Great quote! I think it would apply to the rider/trainer, but I doubt the horse understands that. :wink:


----------



## cmarie

This is a great thread thank you for starting it.


----------



## LesandLily

mirage790 said:


> Great quote! I think it would apply to the rider/trainer, but I doubt the horse understands that. :wink:


No I don't think it would but for some reason it made me think of that. Maybe sometimes we congratulate a little TOO hard.  I always try to rub my horses and not pat them but I often forget. 

It is a great quote though...even if it is from John Madden! 

Cheers!
Les


----------



## westerncowgurl

mirage790 said:


> That's my problem too, none of my friends are horsey and I think I sometimes bored them to tears more than once over the years! :shock: And my husband, God bless his soul, is just totally clueless about it all, even after being married to me for over half of his lifetime. :? Even both of my kids never got interested in horses but just humor their horse-crazy mother. So that's why I joined this forum, to talk horses with people who actually GET IT! Heck, I've been working with horses my whole adult life, and a bit before that, and I still get excited about horses! :lol:


at least im not the only one! i have one horse friend that goes to school with me but we dont have any classes together this semester, and she has coop so i dont see her much. but one of my friends did ask how my horse was! but of course as soon as i said i want to try him in a bosal they all gave me funny looks lol


----------



## HighonEquine

Okay how many plates makes a good bosal? 16 on the nose and 12 on the cheek, or do you want more?

I am still having a heck of a time finding a bosal set that I feel comfortable about! Anyone have some advice?


----------



## mirage790

HighonEquine said:


> Okay how many plates makes a good bosal? 16 on the nose and 12 on the cheek, or do you want more?
> 
> I am still having a heck of a time finding a bosal set that I feel comfortable about! Anyone have some advice?


I'll check around.


----------



## Cherie

Go to Les Vogt's website. He is the finest hackamore and bridle horse man I know. He has forgotten more about making bridle horses and equipment than anyone else I know. He has trained and shown 15 World Champions and is in the NRCHA Hall of Fame.

Here is a link to his website. He sells very high quality hand-made tack for snaffle, hackamore, and full bridle horse training. I just tried it and could not get the 'bosal' link to work. He has some very nice handmade bosals on rawhide cores. He haso has some of the best training videos around and does excellent clinics. His 'Cowhorse U' program takes horses from first ride to snaffle bit, hackamore and bridle competition. There is a lot of free information on his website. Les Vogt


----------



## Cherie

Here is another website for the Guitron's tack company. It is also the 'real deal'. Benny Guitron has also won a lot in the NRCHA show-ring. Welcome to Steve Guitron's Custom Rawhide website


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## HighonEquine

Mirage and Cherie, thank you both! I will look into him Cherie!


----------



## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom, hope you don't mind me jumping here....

The number of plaits will determine how smooth it is when finished but equally as important is the rawhide strings themselves. They should all be cut even and the edges beveled. The beveling will make the lay smooth. You should not be able to see the core(which should be rawhide) through the plaits. You can feel the difference between crappy, bleached, dried out rawhide. It feels like paper and it is hard and pale. Good rawhide feels nice and has a natural color. 
Heel knots are little bit of a personal preference. I like the round ones rather than the pineapple ones. Some prefer the pineapple. Some like the heel knot blocked and some don't.
Another option is Kangaroo hide. I have one that is rawhide but a kangaroo nose piece. Or you can get all kangaroo too, they are a little spendy-er than a rawhide one.
Buying a bosal off the internet is hard unless you know what you are getting, in my opinion. I like to feel them. We have some made by Bill Black and others made by a friend in OR that does a beautiful job. However I will admit to buying a 5/8 off of Martin Blacks website and it wasn't too bad.(Have never tried Les Vogts).
But be prepared to spend a couple hundred bucks on a good quality one.


----------



## HighonEquine

COWCHICK77 said:


> Wanstrom, hope you don't mind me jumping here....
> 
> The number of plaits will determine how smooth it is when finished but equally as important is the rawhide strings themselves. They should all be cut even and the edges beveled. The beveling will make the lay smooth. You should not be able to see the core(which should be rawhide) through the plaits. You can feel the difference between crappy, bleached, dried out rawhide. It feels like paper and it is hard and pale. Good rawhide feels nice and has a natural color.
> Heel knots are little bit of a personal preference. I like the round ones rather than the pineapple ones. Some prefer the pineapple. Some like the heel knot blocked and some don't.
> Another option is Kangaroo hide. I have one that is rawhide but a kangaroo nose piece. Or you can get all kangaroo too, they are a little spendy-er than a rawhide one.
> Buying a bosal off the internet is hard unless you know what you are getting, in my opinion. I like to feel them. We have some made by Bill Black and others made by a friend in OR that does a beautiful job. However I will admit to buying a 5/8 off of Martin Blacks website and it wasn't too bad.(Have never tried Les Vogts).
> But be prepared to spend a couple hundred bucks on a good quality one.


Yes, the internet has been my struggle. I will try some tack shops around here (Topeka probably). But I'm really doubtful that I will be able to find anything. Its to bad you can't reach through the screen and touch things!


----------



## COWCHICK77

HighonEquine said:


> Yes, the internet has been my struggle. I will try some tack shops around here (Topeka probably). But I'm really doubtful that I will be able to find anything. Its to bad you can reach through the screen and touch things!


LOL! I know!

Another option is looking for used items on Ranch World Ads or trading pages on FaceBook. My husband trades a lot of stuff on the "Buckaroo Trading Page" and similar pages. (I don't do FB). I realize you can't touch those either but in my opinion it is better than wading through pages of junk on EBay.


----------



## HighonEquine

Cherie said:


> Les Vogt


I don't know if its just my computer, or if the site is doing work, but when I go to look at the Bosals nothing is showing up.


----------



## HighonEquine

CowChick.. I LOVE your avator!  
I'm in love with a certain sweatshirt. Its got a huge bull and then underneath "Bull Shirt". Great!


----------



## AnrewPL

Have a look at Martin Black’s stuff. I have a 3/8th inch and a ¼ inch bosal from him and they are pretty good.


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## mirage790

highonequine said:


> cowchick.. I love your avator! :d
> i'm in love with a certain sweatshirt. Its got a huge bull and then underneath "bull shirt". Great!


hahahaha!!!!


----------



## Cherie

If you have not used rawhide core bosals, you need to know how to 'shape' them properly before you use them.


----------



## EquineBovine

I'm subbing! Love the western style but am so not brave enough to try it, plus my horse looks bloody stupid in a western saddle  awesome thread!


----------



## karliejaye

COWCHICK77;1837039
Buying a bosal off the internet is hard unless you know what you are getting said:


> CowChick... does your friend in OR make them and sell them, or just for friends? I'm in OR and happen to be looking for a well made bosal!


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Hey everyone, thank for keeping this thread going!! I apologize I haven't been posting, we got put on call for night calving these past couple of days and then I had a trading adventure today with the hubby and some friends. Got a new spade bit and saddle, so I'm feeling pretty productive! I'm back on for answering questions, and thanks guys for covering for me!!!


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## mirage790

EquineBovine said:


> I'm subbing! Love the western style but am so not brave enough to try it, plus my horse looks bloody stupid in a western saddle  awesome thread!


EVERY horse looks great in western tack! :wink:

OK, call my stupid but what does "subbing" mean? I see people using it every once in a while.


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## mirage790

karliejaye said:


> CowChick... does your friend in OR make them and sell them, or just for friends? I'm in OR and happen to be looking for a well made bosal!


LOL, I love you avatar picture!


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## Cherie

'Subbing' means that someone has posted in the thread just so they are 'subscribed' to the thread and get notification in their 'inbox' of new responses.

I usually do just the opposite. I go in a 'unsubscribe' to most threads because I already get so much crap in my inbox with running two websites and conducting all business over the net. I'm afraid i will get so many notifications that I will miss a real e-mail.


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## LeahKathleen

Just subscribing to this.


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## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Hey everyone, thank for keeping this thread going!! I apologize I haven't been posting, we got put on call for night calving these past couple of days and then I had a trading adventure today with the hubby and some friends. Got a new spade bit and saddle, so I'm feeling pretty productive! I'm back on for answering questions, and thanks guys for covering for me!!!


You can't say you got a new bit and saddle without posting pics!


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## mirage790

Cherie said:


> 'Subbing' means that someone has posted in the thread just so they are 'subscribed' to the thread and get notification in their 'inbox' of new responses.
> 
> I usually do just the opposite. I go in a 'unsubscribe' to most threads because I already get so much crap in my inbox with running two websites and conducting all business over the net. I'm afraid i will get so many notifications that I will miss a real e-mail.


Ah-ha, thanks Cherie!


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## mirage790

COWCHICK77 said:


> You can't say you got a new bit and saddle without posting pics!


Heck yeah! OK, I"m jealous. :wink:.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Oh alright, Lol


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## deserthorsewoman

Im jealous too;-)
Saddle question: from what I've seen so far, the majority of buckaroo/ Wade saddles have 27 or 28" skirt length. Any brand/ maker you know of who makes them shorter, 26" being the absolute max? Super short backed horse.....


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## equiniphile

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Oh alright, Lol


Wow, I didn't realize how huge spades are! It's beautiful!


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## Wanstrom Horses

deserthorsewoman said:


> Im jealous too;-)
> Saddle question: from what I've seen so far, the majority of buckaroo/ Wade saddles have 27 or 28" skirt length. Any brand/ maker you know of who makes them shorter, 26" being the absolute max? Super short backed horse.....


You best bet is to order a custom one. Depends on what you are looking to spend, but you can have a custom made saddle from a man in Texas, made to your secifications, for a base of 1800' I believe. Ranch Saddle - Wade Saddles At J. Stead Saddle Co. I ordered one from him a while back and they are nice, a great deal for the money as most saddle makers base price is 3000 in my area. We only usually buy custom saddles, but we traded a couple older, worn out saddles for that one today. Its just a factory made saddle by Vickers and it still retails at 900. If I were you, I'd invest in a custom handmade saddle, there's really nothing else comparable and that way you can get any skirt length you want.


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## AnrewPL

that bit is very similar to mine,


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## mirage790

wanstrom horses said:


> oh alright, lol


awe-some!!!


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## Wanstrom Horses

AnrewPL said:


> that bit is very similar to mine,


What maker is that bit?


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## AnrewPL

Garcia


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## Wanstrom Horses

Same bit then except mines blued  I love Garcia silver bits.


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## COWCHICK77

LOL..I had the same one!


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## AnrewPL

Thought yours might have been, I also got a San Joaquin bit from a guy called A Garcia, covered in German silver, not real silver. It came up on eBay for almost nothing, so I grabbed it, Quality isn’t nearly as good as the spade bit, but it doesn’t look too bad.
Have you ever had anything to do with the bits Martin Black sells? I’m almost tempted to get a half-breed from bit him when I scrape the cash together.


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## Wanstrom Horses

This is the first Garcia bit I've gotten that wasn't out of JM Capriolas in Elko, Nevada, they are the real Garcia dealer. But no, Ive never tried one of Martin Blacks bits yet. But they are pretty tempting to try.


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## COWCHICK77

AnrewPL said:


> Thought yours might have been, I also got a San Joaquin bit from a guy called A Garcia, covered in German silver, not real silver. It came up on eBay for almost nothing, so I grabbed it, Quality isn’t nearly as good as the spade bit, but it doesn’t look too bad.
> Have you ever had anything to do with the bits Martin Black sells? I’m almost tempted to get a half-breed from bit him when I scrape the cash together.


They are Franco's. And really for the price they are pretty good. We have had, used and traded a good pile of them.

Just to add.... a good portion of bits are made out of the same place in Mexico, they just get a different name stamped in the cheek. Franco is the same stuff as BC that used to be sold in Modesto, Ca about 15 years ago.


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## deserthorsewoman

Wanstrom Horses said:


> You best bet is to order a custom one. Depends on what you are looking to spend, but you can have a custom made saddle from a man in Texas, made to your secifications, for a base of 1800' I believe. Ranch Saddle - Wade Saddles At J. Stead Saddle Co. I ordered one from him a while back and they are nice, a great deal for the money as most saddle makers base price is 3000 in my area. We only usually buy custom saddles, but we traded a couple older, worn out saddles for that one today. Its just a factory made saddle by Vickers and it still retails at 900. If I were you, I'd invest in a custom handmade saddle, there's really nothing else comparable and that way you can get any skirt length you want.


Thanks, I will definitely look into that. Have to admit, I usually get stuck and wont budge at 5 k and up saddles...much to the joy of hubby...." jacket with extra long sleeves" frequently escapes him


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## mirage790

Dang, you all are so lucky to be able to afford those beautiful bits! Geez, maybe I'm not rich enough to be perusing vaquero horsemanship! lol

Ok, story time…since several people "liked" it when I said I'd tell you about the very first horse I ever ‎bought. First I should explain the cousins I talk about were not the daughters of the uncle who owned the ‎horses. They were from the opposite side of my family. His kids were long since grown and gone but ‎we came along asking to ride just when my aunt was trying to get him to sell his horses. So now he had ‎an excuse not to!‎

My aunt and uncle were gone when we went out to ride one Saturday evening -- my cousins (who were ‎twins) their little sister, M, and I. I was 16 and just driving, the twins were 15, and M was just 12. She ‎was not as horse crazy as we were, so we put her on Cinnamon, a horse that my uncle boarded and we ‎had permission to us. She was a pretty little bay Morgan mare who was totally bomb proof. We rode in ‎an orchard across the street for about an hour, but M got bored and wanted to quit. The three of us older ‎girls weren't ready to quit yet. We wanted to go around the orchard one more time because we couldn't ‎canter with her along, she was too afraid to. So we made sure she got safely across the street and I told ‎her to just tie Cinnamon up and be sure to CLOSE THE GATE! She said she could handle it and for us ‎to get going. We got to the back side of the orchard, farthest distance from the road, when one of the ‎twins said she thought she heard M yelling. I said, 'You couldn't possibly hear her this far away!' but we ‎listened and sure enough, she was literally screaming her sister's names! So we took off at a full gallop ‎in a bee-line back to the entrance, crashing right through the rows of trees because staying on the service ‎rode would take too long. We didn't know what was wrong, but we sure were scared!! When we ‎camebursting through the trees, there stood M at the end orchard enterance crying, Cinnamon was laying ‎in the middle of the road, and a black Cadillac was pulled over to the side. Well, it didn't take a rocket ‎scientist to figure out what happened. The mare was still alive, but in extreme pain. Apparently M had ‎shut the gate but had forgotten to latch it so it swung open as she was taking the bridle off, but had ‎forgot to put the halter around Cinnamon's neck. The mare just wanted to get back with her equine ‎buddies, so she saw her opportunity and started out the gate at a trot. M made a grab for her but only got ‎the saddle. She said she was being dragged down the driveway yelling WHOA when she realized that ‎wasn't going to stop the horse, so she let go just as the horse broke into a canter. Cinnamon went around ‎the row of pine trees along the road and disappeared from sight. There was a screech of tires, a loud ‎thud, and poor M saw Cinnamon fly through the air and land on the pavement! The driver of the car ‎was shaken up but OK. Well, there were no cell phones back then and we couldn’t get into the house to ‎call anyone, so we ran to the neighbors house, who luckily were home. We had no idea where my uncle ‎and aunt were, so the only one I could think to call his son. Well his son was a realtor and had an ‎unlisted phone number, so we had to call the telephone operator, who called the son and told him to call ‎his father's neighbor because there was an emergency. He called and I explained what happened, he said ‎he'd be right there. I don't know who called the police, but they there were there when we got back from ‎the neighbor's house. They had aalready takes a statement from the driver and he had left. An officer ‎was standing by the mare directing traffic around her when I went over to take the saddle off, the bridle ‎was already off. She would groan every now and then, but was barely breathing. I asked the officer if he ‎could just shoot her and put her out of her misery. He said he couldn't without the owner's permission ‎but he thought she was far enough gone that she wasn't feeling the pain any more. Apparently my uncle's ‎son had called Cinnamon's owner, because after I put the saddle in the barn, I saw them walking up the ‎driveway. I had managed to hold it together until then, but I lost it when I saw them, and just started ‎sobbing. All us girls were crying and hugging them and kept saying we were soooo sorry! They said ‎they were just glad none of us got hurt! We told them that we were responsible so we would reimburse ‎them the $350 for her purchase price. Of course they kept insisting it wasn't necessary, but later that ‎week, each of us chipped in and our mother's wrote the checks and we sent them to Cinnamon's owner ‎with a card. Til the day until my mother died, she said they never cashed that check. But when we got ‎over the trauma, we could joke that the first horse we ever bought was a dead one. ‎

But that isn't the end of the story. The car owner sued Cinnamon's owners and my uncle for his damages ‎and mental trauma! We girls had to talk to lawyers, insurance people, and even go to court. In the end ‎the car owner lost because the judge decided that since the horse had a saddle on it, that meant it was ‎being ridden, so in the state of Michigan that made it a pedestrian (just like someone on a bicycle), ‎therefore the horse had the right of way and the driver was at fault! AND based on the officer's ‎testimony, he had been doing in excess of 80 mph in a 45 mph zone, judging by the length of the skid ‎marks. So, that's the story of how I bought my first horse.‎

Sorry it's so long...


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## GallopingGuitarist

I just read through this whole thread from start to finish (glad my Momma taught me to love reading!). I have been interested in the Vaquero style of training and riding for a while. Nobody seems to use it here in Saskatchewan. 
I have a 13 year old gelding. He has had a history of lots of inexperienced riders and handlers. I ground work him with a hand tied rope halter (I make them), and ride with a D-ring sweet iron snaffle with copper inlays. I tried riding him in a bosal, but he has been taught (by novice hands) to pull the reins from you and after riding him in it for about a week his chin was rubbed raw, so I put him back into a snaffle. Mind you I know nothing about training a bridle horse so was probably doing everything wrong. 
He still is a bit hard to control in the snaffle and whenever I pull on the reins (stopping, backing, yielding shoulders, turning, etc) he has his mouth hanging open. Even if I try and put hardly any pressure. 










I was working with him on giving his head a bit right before I moved and he was starting to improve, a little bit. 

Pulling pretty hard here (on my part). 









I was trying to get a shoulder yield, but hadn't worked him for a while so he was very stiff, as opposed to just being stiff.  










And finally he moves. But not without a lot of open mouth and tucking his nose to get away from the bit. 











Can you tell me what I am doing wrong? Hands, pressure, bit, training. Anything. I am not too easily offended and kinda frustrated with no results. 


He has beautiful gaits and I love to ride him. But my problem is, I haven't been able to ride him for almost half a year now (I moved and can't keep a horse here right now). He is 3 1/2 hours away so I don't get to visit him often. I am going to be gone this next summer for a internship out in B.C., probably will be getting back early winter. 
So then I wouldn't be looking into moving my horse down here until next spring. By then he'll be 14 and still just as untrained.
Am I better off leaving him as a pasture horse and just starting a new colt when I get back? 
Sorry for the book here.


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## Wanstrom Horses

GallopingGuitarist said:


> I just read through this whole thread from start to finish (glad my Momma taught me to love reading!). I have been interested in the Vaquero style of training and riding for a while. Nobody seems to use it here in Saskatchewan.
> I have a 13 year old gelding. He has had a history of lots of inexperienced riders and handlers. I ground work him with a hand tied rope halter (I make them), and ride with a D-ring sweet iron snaffle with copper inlays. I tried riding him in a bosal, but he has been taught (by novice hands) to pull the reins from you and after riding him in it for about a week his chin was rubbed raw, so I put him back into a snaffle. Mind you I know nothing about training a bridle horse so was probably doing everything wrong.
> He still is a bit hard to control in the snaffle and whenever I pull on the reins (stopping, backing, yielding shoulders, turning, etc) he has his mouth hanging open. Even if I try and put hardly any pressure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was working with him on giving his head a bit right before I moved and he was starting to improve, a little bit.
> 
> Pulling pretty hard here (on my part).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was trying to get a shoulder yield, but hadn't worked him for a while so he was very stiff, as opposed to just being stiff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And finally he moves. But not without a lot of open mouth and tucking his nose to get away from the bit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you tell me what I am doing wrong? Hands, pressure, bit, training. Anything. I am not too easily offended and kinda frustrated with no results.
> 
> 
> He has beautiful gaits and I love to ride him. But my problem is, I haven't been able to ride him for almost half a year now (I moved and can't keep a horse here right now). He is 3 1/2 hours away so I don't get to visit him often. I am going to be gone this next summer for a internship out in B.C., probably will be getting back early winter.
> So then I wouldn't be looking into moving my horse down here until next spring. By then he'll be 14 and still just as untrained.
> Am I better off leaving him as a pasture horse and just starting a new colt when I get back?
> Sorry for the book here.


Well no, horses don't really ever forget previous training. It make take it a little while to come back, but they never forget. And just by judging by the pictures, all this horse needs is a little softening. The easiest way to do this is to switch to a twisted wire snaffle. And work on pressure/release. When you turn that horse, the minute he gives to the bit at all and turns, release all pressure on your hands. Same with stopping and backing up. Don't work on all kind of collection at the moment. Just when he gives to the bit at all, release the pressure. You need to go back to square on with this gelding as far as giving to the bit goes, ground drive him sometimes with the wire snaffle first to get him to give to the bit. I can post a pic of the bit I would recommend.


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## Wanstrom Horses

And as far as your riding goes, are you trying to turn him in the third pic?


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## GallopingGuitarist

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Well no, horses don't really ever forget previous training. It make take it a little while to come back, but they never forget. And just by judging by the pictures, all this horse needs is a little softening. The easiest way to do this is to switch to a twisted wire snaffle. And work on pressure/release. When you turn that horse, the minute he gives to the bit at all and turns, release all pressure on your hands. Same with stopping and backing up. Don't work on all kind of collection at the moment. Just when he gives to the bit at all, release the pressure. You need to go back to square on with this gelding as far as giving to the bit goes, ground drive him sometimes with the wire snaffle first to get him to give to the bit. I can post a pic of the bit I would recommend.


That would be awesome if you would!
I did a bit of NH before (Parelli mainly) but seem to be stuck. I kinda get what everyone is saying about it being a bit fluffy and not going anywhere. 
I will have to look into getting a new bit. (too bad! I 'hate' shopping at Cowtown)


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## GallopingGuitarist

Wanstrom Horses said:


> And as far as your riding goes, are you trying to turn him in the third pic?


I was trying to get him to yield his shoulder/side pass, I think. These were taken spring 2012, my memory sometimes isn't the best.


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## Wanstrom Horses

GallopingGuitarist said:


> That would be awesome if you would!
> I did a bit of NH before (Parelli mainly) but seem to be stuck. I kinda get what everyone is saying about it being a bit fluffy and not going anywhere.
> I will have to look into getting a new bit. (too bad! I 'hate' shopping at Cowtown)


Well one pointer i could give to you, just by judging by the pictures, is let some rein down. When you go to turn him bring your rein down on out and pull his head around, not try and muscle him into a turn, get his whole body to move. You've got too much rein gathered up and it looks like the horse has learned to ignore it. Don't pull back and around, pull his nose into himself. I hope this makes sense!!


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## GallopingGuitarist

I wish I would have ask questions like this before, I didn't even think about that before, but it makes sense and I can see what you're saying. I am trying to look at these pictures with some else's eyes, not knowing the horse and not knowing me. It seems to be helping me with seeing the problems. I pretty much see Coyote braced against the bit in every picture.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Here is a bit like I was reffering to.


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## GallopingGuitarist

Thank you! So a loose ring twisted wire snaffle?


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## Wanstrom Horses

GallopingGuitarist said:


> Thank you! So a loose ring twisted wire snaffle?


Loose ring or d ring, it doesn't matter. But I would reccomnd getting one that's fairly heavy. That bit I posted is a weighted loose ring, and that's my favorite for softening up horses. The heavier the bit, the more response you'll get.


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## mirage790

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Well one pointer i could give to you, just by judging by the pictures, is let some rein down. When you go to turn him bring your rein down on out and pull his head around, not try and muscle him into a turn, get his whole body to move. You've got too much rein gathered up and it looks like the horse has learned to ignore it. Don't pull back and around, pull his nose into himself. I hope this makes sense!!


LOL, I was going to say the same thing! Use a looser rein and your hands a lot farther apart. Also, start using your legs more and your hands less. What really helps me is to get some training DVDs from some of the good vaquero style trainers/clinicians. They are great because you can keep rerunning a part you might not get as many times as you need to! That 's what I do during the time of year when you can't get out and ride regularly. Of course you can't get your own riding critiqued, but you can learn the concepts and techniques, and then when you get a chance to ride you'll better know what it is that you are trying to accomplish and how to do that. Just to name a few...Tom Dorrance, Martin Black, Buck Brannaman, Jeff Sanders, Tom Hunt, Richard Caldwell, Mike Bridges...don't know if they all have videos or not, but it's worth a check into.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Good day everyone!! Bad, bad weather today in Eastern Idaho. Cold and the roads are drifted over with snow, so that gives me all day on the forum!  I'm going to try and get some videos going of tack. Like tying a hackamore, the difference between good rawhide and bad rawhide, different bits, etc. Just to give everyone a better idea than what I can show in pictures. So keep checking back and I'll try and get those videos up today. Any questions and suggegstions for stuff I can go over today are also very welcome!! Thanks for following!


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## Fort fireman

How did I miss this thread for so long? I've really gotten into the vaquero / buckaroo style riding. It's pretty tough to find any help here in NC so this thread may help a good bit. Still waiting on some videos:lol:


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## Toymanator

Just for reference to make a true bridle horse it takes about five years to properly get the horse ready to work off of the spade bit.


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## Wanstrom Horses

IMO, every horse is different, some take that long, others take a year in hackamore, a year in the two rein and then thirty days between every transistion. Some horses take even longer, but some can be made in shorter than five years if you ride them everyday. We work our horses every day. We are night calving right now and every horse get ridden at least 3 hours every night and then they get ridden during the day too. If a horse isnt consistantly ridden, it may take longer, but in my experience on average is 3-4 years.


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## Fort fireman

I would like to see some pics of how the bit fits in the horses mouths. I got a new bit for Christmas. Mine looks a tad narrow but I may be looking at this wrong.


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## Wanstrom Horses

OKydoky, is that the Les Vogt frog bit you posted about awhile back??


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## mirage790

Fort fireman said:


> How did I miss this thread for so long? I've really gotten into the vaquero / buckaroo style riding. It's pretty tough to find any help here in NC so this thread may help a good bit. Still waiting on some videos:lol:


I hear ya! Same problem finding help in Michigan.


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## Toymanator

Wanstrom Horses said:


> IMO, every horse is different, some take that long, others take a year in hackamore, a year in the two rein and then thirty days between every transistion. Some horses take even longer, but some can be made in shorter than five years if you ride them everyday. We work our horses every day. We are night calving right now and every horse get ridden at least 3 hours every night and then they get ridden during the day too. If a horse isnt consistantly ridden, it may take longer, but in my experience on average is 3-4 years.


The old vaquero's rode there horses everyday on cattle ranches much larger than most outfits today. They lived in the land of many "manana's" one of the great horsemen Ed Connell who was well known for his bridle headset said he would let the horse pack the bit for over a year before making contact with it. I have really high standards for my hackamore horses and usually spend about two years riding them in the 5/8th's hackamore before transitioning to the two-rein. The two-rein is an often misunderstood step, it is more refinement in the bosal while the horse learns to pack the bit. In my experience people don't spend enough time working with there horses to make a true bridle horse. There is a lot of good information in this thread, I feel bad I didn't stumble upon it earlier.


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## Fort fireman

Wanstrom Horses said:


> OKydoky, is that the Les Vogt frog bit you posted about awhile back??


Ya, I actually talked to Mr Vogt today for about 20 mins about it. He gave me a bit of insight on the bit but would still like pics. I like to see/ do. It's the only way my thick skull absorbs anything. :lol:


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## fkcb1988

Just got done reading the whole thread! Very fun read. Learned alot so far and vant wait for the videos. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FaydesMom

Bummer, stupid weather. I am "champing at the bit" to get a look at your process. LOL

Years ago I had seen firsthand a lot of the wrong way to do it, and I'm so looking forward to seeing the right way to get it done. I have always liked the look, but didn't understand how "someone could do that" to their horse. It is SO NICE to hear about it from someone who actually cares about the horses. 

Here's hoping the weather breaks soon!!


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## westerncowgurl

cant wait for videos! i have one more question about the bosal (i might be going to buy one this sunday!) my horse has kind of a big head  will that be a problem finding one that fits? (someone might of already posted this question if they did sorry )
wow mirage790 thats a sad story


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## mirage790

westerncowgurl said:


> cant wait for videos! i have one more question about the bosal (i might be going to buy one this sunday!) my horse has kind of a big head  will that be a problem finding one that fits? (someone might of already posted this question if they did sorry )
> wow mirage790 thats a sad story


Unless your horse requires a larger than normal bridle I don't think you have to worry.
Thanks, it WAS very traumatic at the time. (Too bad it wasn't his ornery old mare instead! lol)


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## Toymanator

westerncowgurl said:


> cant wait for videos! i have one more question about the bosal (i might be going to buy one this sunday!) my horse has kind of a big head  will that be a problem finding one that fits? (someone might of already posted this question if they did sorry )
> wow mirage790 thats a sad story


Define big head... I have a quarter/draft that I have a had a hackamore braided specifically for because his head was too big for my other hackamores. Depending on the size of the horses head you may have trouble finding one at a tack store. But I wouldn't reccomend buying one from a tack store anyways. Most of the hackamores you will find at a tack store have a rolled paper, cable, or rope core. These do not work as well as if you have a rawhide core. The rawhide core is the only way to go in my opinion. You won't get the same results with a poorly constructed hackamore. I have a few in my tack shed that never get used. They also will have tape wrapped around the core to build up the nose buttons and then they are braided over, or there is tape wrapped in the heel knot. The tape interferes with the flexibility, it also breaks down and rots when the horse sweats. They don't last as long as a well crafted hackamore. In my experience these also don't give the correct balance to the hackamore that is needed to work correctly. 

Another thing I have yet to see a store bought hackamore have is rawhide strings that are thick enough. Most of the ones you will find are paper thing, they don't have any bevel to them which is very important to the response you want from your horse, and the length that the hackamore will last. It's like buying a ferrari and putting wal mart tires on it. You have a nice horse, make sure you put the right gear on it. I am friends with some of the best rawhide braiders in the country and can reccomend some to you, they can make you one that will fit your horse correctly. And fit is one of the most important things when choosing a hackamore.


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## westerncowgurl

i have a reg paint, i guess his head isnt abnormaly huge, just bigger than most, he has kind of a cone head if that makes sense haha his nose is normal then his head gets bigger and i have had trouble finding bits at times.id love to get one from a rawhide braider like you said, do you happen to know of any in canada?


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## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom, by the way I like your new saddle! 
Do you know who builds those for Vickers?


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## Wanstrom Horses

COWCHICK77 said:


> Wanstrom, by the way I like your new saddle!
> Do you know who builds those for Vickers?


Umm, I can find out lol. I used to work for Jim Vickers down here in Twin and a maker in Texas, but they changed after I quit working there. But I will find out! Hang on. Anyways, everyone I apologize I didn't get the videos up!! I got them taped and they will be up by tomorrow. I had problem with the forum, saying there was a problem with the database, does anyone know what that's about???


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## Wanstrom Horses

westerncowgurl said:


> i have a reg paint, i guess his head isnt abnormaly huge, just bigger than most, he has kind of a cone head if that makes sense haha his nose is normal then his head gets bigger and i have had trouble finding bits at times.id love to get one from a rawhide braider like you said, do you happen to know of any in canada?


I have a couple good friends that braid some outstanding rawhide down here, and they both have new babies and are hurting for money, lol. So they are doing it fairly cheap down here. I'm sure they would ship if I asked! Lol.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Toymanator said:


> Define big head... I have a quarter/draft that I have a had a hackamore braided specifically for because his head was too big for my other hackamores. Depending on the size of the horses head you may have trouble finding one at a tack store. But I wouldn't reccomend buying one from a tack store anyways. Most of the hackamores you will find at a tack store have a rolled paper, cable, or rope core. These do not work as well as if you have a rawhide core. The rawhide core is the only way to go in my opinion. You won't get the same results with a poorly constructed hackamore. I have a few in my tack shed that never get used. They also will have tape wrapped around the core to build up the nose buttons and then they are braided over, or there is tape wrapped in the heel knot. The tape interferes with the flexibility, it also breaks down and rots when the horse sweats. They don't last as long as a well crafted hackamore. In my experience these also don't give the correct balance to the hackamore that is needed to work correctly.
> 
> Another thing I have yet to see a store bought hackamore have is rawhide strings that are thick enough. Most of the ones you will find are paper thing, they don't have any bevel to them which is very important to the response you want from your horse, and the length that the hackamore will last. It's like buying a ferrari and putting wal mart tires on it. You have a nice horse, make sure you put the right gear on it. I am friends with some of the best rawhide braiders in the country and can reccomend some to you, they can make you one that will fit your horse correctly. And fit is one of the most important things when choosing a hackamore.


Since your familiar with this stuff, I have a question, based on personal preference, I got in an argument with a guy yesterday about tongue relief on bridle bits. What's your opinion on that?


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## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Umm, I can find out lol. I used to work for Jim Vickers down here in Twin and a maker in Texas, but they changed after I quit working there. But I will find out! Hang on. Anyways, everyone I apologize I didn't get the videos up!! I got them taped and they will be up by tomorrow. I had problem with the forum, saying there was a problem with the database, does anyone know what that's about???


No big deal, just curious.
It has been about three or four years since I have been in there and judging from your saddle, they look nicer from what I remember.


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## Wanstrom Horses

COWCHICK77 said:


> No big deal, just curious.
> It has been about three or four years since I have been in there and judging from your saddle, they look nicer from what I remember.


Theyre alright saddles, just your basic started wade, but usually they are solid. I don't normally buy them, but I got this on a trade. But for a factory made saddle, they are pretty decent. The comfort level, not so much lol. Most I've found are kinda uncomfortable.


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## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Theyre alright saddles, just your basic started wade, but usually they are solid. I don't normally buy them, but I got this on a trade. But for a factory made saddle, they are pretty decent. The comfort level, not so much lol. Most I've found are kinda uncomfortable.


LOL, I have never ridden in one. A friend went up there and bought one for his 9 year old son because he out grew his old one, that is the only person I knew of that had one. And like I said it has been a few years since we went in there, just curious, thought maybe you knew off the top of your head.


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## Wanstrom Horses

westerncowgurl said:


> cant wait for videos! i have one more question about the bosal (i might be going to buy one this sunday!) my horse has kind of a big head  will that be a problem finding one that fits? (someone might of already posted this question if they did sorry )
> wow mirage790 thats a sad story


And if you get a quality bosal, they can always be shaped.


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## mirage790

Has any one else been having trouble getting on the forum last night and this morning? I keep getting a DATABASE ERROR when I try to change pages in the forum. 

Anyway, I had just wanted to post this video of Buck Brannaman working a young horse at one of his clinics because there had been discussion earlier (which I can't find right now about the video on lightness) that trainers don't show the "problems" they run into in these kind of videos. Buck does, and I learn more from watching the problems than I do when things are going smoothly.

Buck - Chief - YouTube

Some people may think he is being rough with the colt, but he is doing what he needs to do to get the colt's attention, let it know it can't disrespect him, which it apparently did to people on a regular basis.


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## mirage790

Also I absolutely LOVE this short piece from the documentary BUCK. it pretty much says it all about the relationship between a horse and a human.


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## mirage790

And this little speech he gives is awesome. It reveals the flaws of some riders/trainers knowledge.


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## mirage790

You know, this may be a news flash to some of you, but not everyone can afford a custom made saddle, a $200 bosal, or a $450 Garcia bit. Heck, all I can afford is what the local saddle shop sells, and even most of that I can't afford! lol I bought my "cheap" bosal there and it has a rawhide core. I even bought my saddle off Ebay (OMG!), patiently watching and waiting until I finally didn't get outbid on on something I hoped would be OK for me and my horse. It may not be a several thousand dollar custom saddle, but it works just fine. Riding may be my hobby because I work 10 hours a day, but that doesn't make me any less enthusiastic about learning this and doing it correctly. So I'm just saying all this because I think maybe we should be a little careful about what we say and how we say it because it would be a shame if we turned someone off to such an awesome tradition because, when it's the cheap stuff or it's nothing, they think they can't pursue it. (just my thoughts)


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## COWCHICK77

mirage790 said:


> You know, this may be a news flash to some of you, but not everyone can afford a custom made saddle, a $200 bosal, or a $450 Garcia bit. Heck, all I can afford is what the local saddle shop sells, and even most of that I can't afford! lol I bought my "cheap" bosal there and it has a rawhide core. I even bought my saddle off Ebay (OMG!), patiently watching and waiting until I finally didn't get outbid on on something I hoped would be OK for me and my horse. It may not be a several thousand dollar custom saddle, but it works just fine. Riding may be my hobby because I work 10 hours a day, but that doesn't make me any less enthusiastic about learning this and doing it correctly. So I'm just saying all this because I think maybe we should be a little careful about what we say and how we say it because it would be a shame if we turned someone off to such an awesome tradition because, when it's the cheap stuff or it's nothing, they think they can't pursue it. (just my thoughts)


I don't think anyone is meaning to offend. Mostly I think the point trying to be made is that quality is important, and buy the best you can afford.
It has taken a lifetime to build up what my husband and I own. And even some of that was handed down from his side of the family and mine!:lol:
Back when we both cowboyed, even before we met and married, our custom saddles were at least three months wages. But it is so important to have a good saddle that wont sore all the horses, cripple you before the day is done or wont allow you to do your job properly. A good portion of our bridle bits were never bought outright but rather traded for. We consider them our useable savings account


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## Wanstrom Horses

mirage790 said:


> And this little speech he gives is awesome. It reveals the flaws of some riders/trainers knowledge.
> 
> Buck Brannaman New River, AZ April 8, 2011 - YouTube


Gonna have to disagree with Buck on this one. I think it's the right video lol. I would never ride my horses in a snaffle for a year. I think a horse needs to learn all that while working in a hackamore to move to a two rein. I think riding them in a snaffle for a year is kind of unnecessary. Heck I'd ride ride a horse in a hackamore for two years than a snaffle for one. I've found horses do a lot well just learning th basics in a snaffle and the rest in a hackamore. I find you get a lot softer horses that way. But that's just me and my preference based off my experience. But I have a lot of respect for Buck and his methods.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Gonna have to disagree with Buck on this one. I think it's the right video lol. I would never ride my horses in a snaffle for a year. I think a horse needs to learn all that while working in a hackamore to move to a two rein. I think riding them in a snaffle for a year is kind of unnecessary. Heck I'd ride ride a horse in a hackamore for two years than a snaffle for one. I've found horses do a lot well just learning th basics in a snaffle and the rest in a hackamore. I find you get a lot softer horses that way. But that's just me and my preference based off my experience. But I have a lot of respect for Buck and his methods.


Oos!! Wrong video! Lol. It's the same clinic, but this is the wrong piece. Sorry!!


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## Wanstrom Horses

COWCHICK77 said:


> I don't think anyone is meaning to offend. Mostly I think the point trying to be made is that quality is important, and buy the best you can afford.
> It has taken a lifetime to build up what my husband and I own. And even some of that was handed down from his side of the family and mine!:lol:
> Back when we both cowboyed, even before we met and married, our custom saddles were at least three months wages. But it is so important to have a good saddle that wont sore all the horses, cripple you before the day is done or wont allow you to do your job properly. A good portion of our bridle bits were never bought outright but rather traded for. We consider them our useable savings account


Well said!! I've owned factory made saddles and ridden them a lot. They are fine and everything, but if I'm going to spend 1000 dollars on a factory made saddle that's gonna cripple me by the time the days done and I'm going to get rid of it in a year. I'd rather just save up my money and invest in a saddle that will last forever and I'll keep. And at the end of every year, for Christmas, my husband and I go to Elko, Nevada and get gifts for each other, bridle bits, bosals, romals, etc. we invest a little every year in quality gear. And believe me, we aren't rich haha. I'm still cowboying at 6 months pregnant just so we can stay afloat. But instead of investing in property or stocks, we invest in tack. I remember once, this last year, my hubby traded a horse, two finished catahoula dogs and a sack of oats for one bosal. Lol. But all we are trying to say is buy the best you can, if you can afford to, don't cut corners. The best gear will serve you better in the long run.


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## deserthorsewoman

It all makes sense, quality of gear. But, what about saddle fit for the horse? You guys ride a lot of horses, what do you do if your favourite life time saddle doesn't fit the horse? Just wondering, since nowadays so much emphasis is being put on fit for the horse( remember my ultra short-backed horse). I went to the site you suggested (hubby didn't make the "long sleeve jacket remark lol) but didn't see a choice of trees.


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## Wanstrom Horses

deserthorsewoman said:


> It all makes sense, quality of gear. But, what about saddle fit for the horse? You guys ride a lot of horses, what do you do if your favourite life time saddle doesn't fit the horse? Just wondering, since nowadays so much emphasis is being put on fit for the horse( remember my ultra short-backed horse). I went to the site you suggested (hubby didn't make the "long sleeve jacket remark lol) but didn't see a choice of trees.


I always buy FQHBs saddles, but I keep a SQHBs around just in case I get a horse that it doesnt fit. But I have never had a problem with my saddles fitting a horse. You can have a tree made for you through LaPorte or Bob Severe. I know they both make custom trees and then have it sent to a maker. And thats what I do. I usually get a tree and send it to the maker. I really like those LaPorte poly tuff trees, they are light but tough as nails. And Bob Severe trees are about the best rawhide on wood saddle trees you can buy. Dont owrry, you not out of options yet! And I'm sure if you called J.Stead, he would work with you on finding a tree that would work for you.


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## deserthorsewoman

I wouldn't compromise on fit for my horse, that's for sure
My question was rather general, knowing that you guys ride so many different horses. Can you really get by with two different tree sizes and if not, how do you make it fit the "off" horse? Now, I know it's been done for hundreds of years, but way back then people weren't overly concerned about a single horse's well-being. Different times. Now it's almost a science to buy the right saddle. I'm sure some of it is marketing lol. But how do you fit a non fitting saddle? Different pads, more pads/ blankets?


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## Wanstrom Horses

deserthorsewoman said:


> I wouldn't compromise on fit for my horse, that's for sure
> My question was rather general, knowing that you guys ride so many different horses. Can you really get by with two different tree sizes and if not, how do you make it fit the "off" horse? Now, I know it's been done for hundreds of years, but way back then people weren't overly concerned about a single horse's well-being. Different times. Now it's almost a science to buy the right saddle. I'm sure some of it is marketing lol. But how do you fit a non fitting saddle? Different pads, more pads/ blankets?


To be honest, I really havent ever had a problem with an ill-fitting saddle. All of my saddles have fit my horses. But I'm riding the same type of horse all the time, wide horses with a good set of withers. But yes there are ways to get a saddle to fit a horse better with pad inserts, sway back pads, liners, etc. I own two types of saddles. One will fit a horse that has mutton withers and a fat back to a horse with a normal back and a good set of withers. Then I have another type that will fit narrow shouldered, high withered horses. And I have not have a problem not fitting a horse. And a lot of saddle fit problems can be caused by the saddle pad itself. Some saddle pads are too small for the saddle size or the horse's width and this can cause tons of problems. But in my experience, I have not had any problems fitting a horse. And I've ridden a wide variety of horses. I cant even give you a figure for the number of different horses I've ridden. And riggin can affect how a saddle fits also. I will only have either a cable rigged saddle or a center-fire flat plate rigged saddle. I find they tend to fit the horse better and fit a wider range of horses.


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## Toymanator

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Since your familiar with this stuff, I have a question, based on personal preference, I got in an argument with a guy yesterday about tongue relief on bridle bits. What's your opinion on that?


I have written many things about spade bits because they are very misunderstood. I will try to bring up a few points and not get to lengthy in my description. If used correctly they can be much more "mild" than a standard snaffle. 

The concept of "tongue relief" is a misnomer. If you relieve the tongue, the pressure has to go somewhere. And subsequently the pressure moves off of the tongue and the bars of the mouth are required to take the pressure. Are the bars of the mouth less sensitive than the tongue? The answer is no, the bars are filled with nerves that typically become callused and dull overtime because of pressure placed over them. This takes the sensitivity out of a horse, which directly goes against anyone trying to train a bridle horse. When working with horses you should try to prolong and preserve the sensitivity in a horse, especially in there mouth. The vaquero's and buckaroos understood this, they considered the mouth of the horse sacred. That is why they typically started horses around age 5-6, and kept them in a hackamore to keep the mouth light. A velvet lined mouth of a bridle horse is beautiful to me. 

Another way to look at it is, that the spade bit is a signal based bit not a leverage based bit. The cannon bar (the bar that goes through the mouth) is straight in a true spade bit, because the horse has to learn to "pick the bit up and pack it" He cannot properly do this if there is tongue relief. The horse is able to hold the bit and brace against any incoming signals. The tongue is actually there for the safety of the horses mouth. You add in tongue relief to the cannon bar and you begin to inflict pain on the bars of the mouth, pain dulls your ability to communicate your signals because the horse will then begin to focus on relieving itself from the pain. Again it comes back to horses these days aren't taught to "pack" a bit and hold it in there mouth, they are instead taught to brace against it. The tongue of a horse is very sensitive and is one of the pre-signals I use when working with horses. The horse should be able to feel the vibration of the reins on it's tongue.

I have provided an extreme picture below that shows what "tongue relief" means to some people. When looking at it know that I consider it extreme and a terrible example of horsemanship, but it shows what a bit with "tongue relief" does to a horse. The picture is actually of a heeler who is top 10 in the world. My question is why do they make so many different "correction" bits for horses and no correction gloves for the riders... or maybe breakaway reins would be better?


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## Wanstrom Horses

Toymanator said:


> I have written many things about spade bits because they are very misunderstood. I will try to bring up a few points and not get to lengthy in my description. If used correctly they can be much more "mild" than a standard snaffle.
> 
> The concept of "tongue relief" is a misnomer. If you relieve the tongue, the pressure has to go somewhere. And subsequently the pressure moves off of the tongue and the bars of the mouth are required to take the pressure. Are the bars of the mouth less sensitive than the tongue? The answer is no, the bars are filled with nerves that typically become callused and dull overtime because of pressure placed over them. This takes the sensitivity out of a horse, which directly goes against anyone trying to train a bridle horse. When working with horses you should try to prolong and preserve the sensitivity in a horse, especially in there mouth. The vaquero's and buckaroos understood this, they considered the mouth of the horse sacred. That is why they typically started horses around age 5-6, and kept them in a hackamore to keep the mouth light. A velvet lined mouth of a bridle horse is beautiful to me.
> 
> Another way to look at it is, that the spade bit is a signal based bit not a leverage based bit. The cannon bar (the bar that goes through the mouth) is straight in a true spade bit, because the horse has to learn to "pick the bit up and pack it" He cannot properly do this if there is tongue relief. The horse is able to hold the bit and brace against any incoming signals. The tongue is actually there for the safety of the horses mouth. You add in tongue relief to the cannon bar and you begin to inflict pain on the bars of the mouth, pain dulls your ability to communicate your signals because the horse will then begin to focus on relieving itself from the pain. Again it comes back to horses these days aren't taught to "pack" a bit and hold it in there mouth, they are instead taught to brace against it. The tongue of a horse is very sensitive and is one of the pre-signals I use when working with horses. The horse should be able to feel the vibration of the reins on it's tongue.
> 
> I have provided an extreme picture below that shows what "tongue relief" means to some people. When looking at it know that I consider it extreme and a terrible example of horsemanship, but it shows what a bit with "tongue relief" does to a horse. The picture is actually of a heeler who is top 10 in the world. My question is why do they make so many different "correction" bits for horses and no correction gloves for the riders... or maybe breakaway reins would be better?


I'm so glad someone finally agrees with me on this!! In all my experiences, tongue relief is an overused, over praised term in the horse world. Thanks!


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## Fort fireman

As far as tack goes I try to buy the best stuff I can afford. Not neccesarily the most expensive mind you. I guess what Im saying is if I had my choice of a 1000 dollar saddle that I would probably end up getting rid of and buying a new one down the road. Or just wait a little bit longer for an 1800 dollar saddle that I know I'll have alot longer if not forever,I would wait. I don't have a custom wade tree. I got a circle Y wade. It is a good saddle. Is it a custom grade saddle? No. Will I have it for a long time, Yup. I knew the tack shop owner and got it just over her cost , so it was a screaming deal. Considerabley less than the standard custom wades i looked at. It was the best I could afford though. i could have found some alot cheaper but I fugured , I'll get what I pay for.

Just my humble opinions on tack. Spend it now or spend it later when you decide to upgrade.


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## Fort fireman

I think tongue relief is thought as a good thing simply because of the word RELIEF. people hear it and think that means mild and relieving. Maybe it should be called Bar assault. That picture that was posted is terrible. Hands like cinder blocks.


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## Wanstrom Horses

I didn't know Circle Y made a wade! Ya learn something everyday. We try and buy one new custom saddle a year. I bought my hubby a full floral custom wade on a Bob Severe tree. Expensive? **** right, 7000. He's always wanted a full floral saddle. But I get asked a lot if it rides different than the others. Quality wise, the saddle exceptional, but comfort wise, it's the same as the rest. If you can find a saddle that fits your budget, your horse and is comfortable for you and safe then cutting a few corners is fine


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## Wanstrom Horses

Fort fireman said:


> I think tongue relief is thought as a good thing simply because of the word RELIEF. people hear it and think that means mild and relieving. Maybe it should be called Bar assault. That picture that was posted is terrible. Hands like cinder blocks.


Yep, and people call them "horsemen" really gets under my skin lol. Haha I love that!! I'm calling it bar assault from now on!!


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## Fort fireman

Circle Y Brand 1346 Texoma Ranch Saddle - Scruggsfarm.com

Heres a pic of it. However I tried to find it on the circle Y site and couldn't. So they may not make it anymore. Not sure.


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## Fort fireman

Honestly, if I ever did get a custom saddle it would probably be rough out or maybe just some tooling onthe skirt. Minimal frill. :lol: just makes it harder to clean.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Yeah tooling is a pain to clean. Looks like a really nice saddle!


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## Fort fireman

Ya, i like it. Its not bad. I gotta go now. I have to go school the boys at the station on the ping pong table. I give it 4 games before it becomes full contact. :lol:


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## Toymanator

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I'm so glad someone finally agrees with me on this!! In all my experiences, tongue relief is an overused, over praised term in the horse world. Thanks!


Unfortunately a lot of the tack that is purchased these days in tack stores does not have the horse in mind. It is a marketing thing, I am not one to drop names but I am friends with some of the top bit makers in the country. I have had conversations on numerous occasions with a few of them, that the bits they sell are not the bits they use with there horses. Or if they had there choice they would not build the bits that are on the market today. However it is what sells to people, not horses... The majority of the tack made today is manufactured in China, India, and Pakistan. As a result the quality has suffered greatly. That is not to say I am against manufacturing overseas, I live off of my iPhone. One of the other issues is that people are unwilling to spend money on quality horse gear. 

A bit is a communication device, not a discipline tool. A bit is your telephone to the horse, what you say and how you say it is all up to you. You can get in a shouting match, or you can talk sensibly. You can talk demeaning and degrading or you can talk uplifting and encouraging. You can blame or you can understand. The type of bit you use does not determine your ability to communicate with your horse anymore then a Smart phone allows a person to speak better than an old rotary phone. I have seen people do incredible things in a snaffle, but in order for a horse to progress, a different communication device is needed. These new devices are used to build on the conversation that has already started, you are only refining the conversation. A spade bit is used to have an incredibly intellectual conversation with a horse, very few horses have been to enough schooling or studied enough to understand the conversation. In the same regard very few riders have been to the proper university to understand how to even begin the discussion. I see too many people getting caught up on the fact that a snaffle is direct pressure and curb bits are leverage. Both are a form of pressure to the horse, both can ruin a horses mouth if used improperly. I would recommend researching different types of bits and seeing what you are communicating and how you are communicating it, once you learn how to have this make sense to the horse then you can begin having the conversation. It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools. Understanding how things work, helps us in how we use and incorporate them. Instead of screaming through leverage learn to whisper through signals... 

Like I said, many people will spend the money to communicate through a smart phone to a friend. (Guilty as charged I carry an iPhone) But they aren't willing to spend the money on a quality bit to communicate with there horse. And as a result we have marketing trends, that convince people that a new bit provides a more efficient tool for the rider. When I hear that I think that "more efficient" generally means pain. No piece of metal in a horses mouth, that is properly adjusted, causes damage until it is moved by the person on it's back.


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## westerncowgurl

i allways try to go for good quality but it is hard to do that when you dont have the money, my parents bought my horse but if i want something for him like bridles etc i have to buy it, although my mom did help me buy my western saddle i didnt want to cheap out on that! lol i dont think theres anything wrong buying cheaper or used things as long as the guality is good, now that i know more about bosals thanks to this thread i now know not to cheap out on it, but then again im not going to spend 200 bucks on one.

and i just want to say i love reading your guy's stories and input on things like bits, i think your very wise and know exactly what your doing and i love how much you care about the horses well being, something alot of trainers dont seem to think about now. im learning so much in this thread and i hope to be as good of a horsemen as you someday!


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## Running Whisper

I really enjoy reading this post. I have a question for you guys. I have been wanting to get one of my boys in a bosal, but I don't know what to get him. I don't want to pay anymore than $150 for a bosal though. So what would be some good places to look at?


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## Wanstrom Horses

Running Whisper said:


> I really enjoy reading this post. I have a question for you guys. I have been wanting to get one of my boys in a bosal, but I don't know what to get him. I don't want to pay anymore than $150 for a bosal though. So what would be some good places to look at?


What stores are available to you? Or are you ordering online?


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## Running Whisper

Well there's not to many stores around here just Tractor supply so I think I would rather order it online.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Running Whisper said:


> Well there's not to many stores around here just Tractor supply so I think I would rather order it online.


Hang on and Ill get you some links!!


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## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Well said!! I've owned factory made saddles and ridden them a lot. They are fine and everything, but if I'm going to spend 1000 dollars on a factory made saddle that's gonna cripple me by the time the days done and I'm going to get rid of it in a year. I'd rather just save up my money and invest in a saddle that will last forever and I'll keep. And at the end of every year, for Christmas, my husband and I go to Elko, Nevada and get gifts for each other, bridle bits, bosals, romals, etc. we invest a little every year in quality gear. And believe me, we aren't rich haha. I'm still cowboying at 6 months pregnant just so we can stay afloat. But instead of investing in property or stocks, we invest in tack. I remember once, this last year, my hubby traded a horse, two finished catahoula dogs and a sack of oats for one bosal. Lol. But all we are trying to say is buy the best you can, if you can afford to, don't cut corners. The best gear will serve you better in the long run.


LOL! That's funny...the sack of oats sealed the deal I am sure
We used to do the same, take turns going into Capriola's and have Doug or Paula(R.I.P.) stash it in the back and wrap it so we couldn't peek at each others stuff in the pickup..lol



deserthorsewoman said:


> I wouldn't compromise on fit for my horse, that's for sure
> My question was rather general, knowing that you guys ride so many different horses. Can you really get by with two different tree sizes and if not, how do you make it fit the "off" horse? Now, I know it's been done for hundreds of years, but way back then people weren't overly concerned about a single horse's well-being. Different times. Now it's almost a science to buy the right saddle. I'm sure some of it is marketing lol. But how do you fit a non fitting saddle? Different pads, more pads/ blankets?


Between the saddles that we have or have had in the past we could make it work. They all had different trees, gullet width, and bar angles that with playing with pads and blankets it will work and not sore one. If we ever ended up with a saddle that wouldn't really fit anything then it goes down the road.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Running Whisper said:


> Well there's not to many stores around here just Tractor supply so I think I would rather order it online.


Here is where I get most of mine if I order them online. We are in Billings a lot for horse sales and I usually drop by and pick stuff up here. They make some really high quality gear, but their prices reflect that! 
http://www.buckaroobusinesses.net/index.html

And you can usually find some nice used stuff here for sale. 

www.ranchworldads.com


Another good site: 
Buckaroo Leather - Bosals, Hackamores & Rawhide Gear

But for best price, I would reccomend this site. Order hackamore set up from here before and had them make me some hangers and they do a nice job! 
Mecates & Bosals


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## Wanstrom Horses

COWCHICK77 said:


> LOL! That's funny...the sack of oats sealed the deal I am sure
> We used to do the same, take turns going into Capriola's and have Doug or Paula(R.I.P.) stash it in the back and wrap it so we couldn't peek at each others stuff in the pickup..lol
> 
> 
> 
> Between the saddles that we have or have had in the past we could make it work. They all had different trees, gullet width, and bar angles that with playing with pads and blankets it will work and not sore one. If we ever ended up with a saddle that wouldn't really fit anything then it goes down the road.


Haha actually it did! The guy we traded with needed something to tie his newly accquired dogs too so they wouldn't fight with the others, and he said we werent getting the trade until he had collars for the dogs and a sack of oats to tie them to! Lol


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## Wanstrom Horses

COWCHICK77 said:


> LOL! That's funny...the sack of oats sealed the deal I am sure
> We used to do the same, take turns going into Capriola's and have Doug or Paula(R.I.P.) stash it in the back and wrap it so we couldn't peek at each others stuff in the pickup..lol
> 
> 
> 
> Between the saddles that we have or have had in the past we could make it work. They all had different trees, gullet width, and bar angles that with playing with pads and blankets it will work and not sore one. If we ever ended up with a saddle that wouldn't really fit anything then it goes down the road.


Wasnt that the tradgedy about Paula!!  I always just loved doing business with her, it was such a bad deal 
Oh! Off topic, but BTW I was looking through the forum and saw the "show me your saddles" post. Im really digging the blue horn wrap on that saddle of yours!!


----------



## COWCHICK77

Fort fireman said:


> I think tongue relief is thought as a good thing simply because of the word RELIEF. people hear it and think that means mild and relieving. Maybe it should be called Bar assault. That picture that was posted is terrible. Hands like cinder blocks.


LOL! I love it...bar assault!

I agree, I am not into the "tongue relief"(bar assault:wink fad. Most horses really do not have a tongue _that _thick. And I have not found horses to really like it.

This is about as close to tongue relief as I get. 
The Las Cruces with the San Joaquin has been only used on one horse.(why it hangs with no rein chains or reins) A short fat rez horse that had the thickest tongue I have ever encountered loved this bit.
The Teitjen we have used on several different horses, but it's a Teitjen so it's not going anywhere..LOL


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

I'll trade you a sack of oats for that Teitjen!! And maybe a dog :lol:


----------



## Running Whisper

Hey thanks. I looked at the websites and the last one there was a set for $150. Would it be worth considering or should I find something else. I don't really want to spend too much but if it means it lasting for quite a while... And I just got paid so I think I can afford it:lol: Here's the link. http://www.buckarooleather.com/bosals-hackamores-a-rawhide


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Running Whisper said:


> Hey thanks. I looked at the websites and the last one there was a set for $150. Would it be worth considering or should I find something else. I don't really want to spend too much but if it means it lasting for quite a while... And I just got paid so I think I can afford it:lol: Here's the link. http://www.buckarooleather.com/bosals-hackamores-a-rawhide


I think thats a decent set-up. Personally I think the $80 bosals on the last link I gave you are a little better quality. If I were you, I would buy one of those bosals and then order your hanger and mecate from somewhere cheaper. I think it would serve you best in the long run and would probably cost about the same.


----------



## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Wasnt that the tradgedy about Paula!!  I always just loved doing business with her, it was such a bad deal
> Oh! Off topic, but BTW I was looking through the forum and saw the "show me your saddles" post. Im really digging the blue horn wrap on that saddle of yours!!


I know, that was so sad :-( We were in TX when that happened, so we didn't make the funeral unfortunately.

That is my husband....he loves his colored horn wrap! When he had his sewing machine and making some chaps and ****** he always had scraps of colored chap leather. During the winter when we were starting colts he burned through a pile of mule and elk hide and we couldn't get to town to get more and he started using colored chap leather scraps, works great and looks good...haha


----------



## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I'll trade you a sack of oats for that Teitjen!! And maybe a dog :lol:


OOOOH, a sack of oats is pretty tempting..LOL:lol:


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

OK, i got a question for you guys, maybe you have seen a bit like the one I have pictured below. It is a Crockett, I used it as a "starter spade for my horses" Is is basically a very high half-breed with low wire feelers. I have never ever seen another like it. And was wondering if maybe someone else had? The cheekpieces are also strange, it looks like the bit is backwards in this picture, but its not. Have you seen one like it? Sorry the picture is dark! We had just got in off the mountain and I snapped it last year.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

COWCHICK77 said:


> I know, that was so sad :-( We were in TX when that happened, so we didn't make the funeral unfortunately.
> 
> That is my husband....he loves his colored horn wrap! When he had his sewing machine and making some chaps and ****** he always had scraps of colored chap leather. During the winter when we were starting colts he burned through a pile of mule and elk hide and we couldn't get to town to get more and he started using colored chap leather scraps, works great and looks good...haha


Haha ask him if he does custom orders, I'm really liking it!! And they are very, very high quality oats! LOL


----------



## Running Whisper

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I think thats a decent set-up. Personally I think the $80 bosals on the last link I gave you are a little better quality. If I were you, I would buy one of those bosals and then order your hanger and mecate from somewhere cheaper. I think it would serve you best in the long run and would probably cost about the same.


Just a question, what's the difference between an 5/8 and 1/2 bosal?


----------



## COWCHICK77

I see what your saying about it looking backwards. But the way the cheeks go back, then go forward I imagine they did it to help balance it. I am guessing that the mouthpiece is centered in the center of the concha like how a Las Cruces is centered and makes it very straight( the horses head would have to be on the vertical for it to be neutral) rather than other styles where the mouthpiece is on the front side of the cheeks like a Santa Barbara which does a nice job of balancing.

The pic below is an example is the closest thing I have seen to that style.

Do you have a picture of the mouthpiece?


----------



## Toymanator

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Here is where I get most of mine if I order them online. We are in Billings a lot for horse sales and I usually drop by and pick stuff up here. They make some really high quality gear, but their prices reflect that!
> Buckaroo Businesses Home


Scott and Staci are great people, but the hackamores they sell are imported from Mexico and generally have taped nose buttons. 



Wanstrom Horses said:


> And you can usually find some nice used stuff here for sale.
> 
> www.ranchworldads.com


I will see if I can find a quality hackamore on here for you. A good used one can last a looong time. I know some that are over a century old and are still being used. 



Wanstrom Horses said:


> Another good site:
> Buckaroo Leather - Bosals, Hackamores & Rawhide Gear
> ]


I have only met the owner of Buckaroo Leather once, and don't know much about there hackamores. 



Wanstrom Horses said:


> But for best price, I would reccomend this site. Order hackamore set up from here before and had them make me some hangers and they do a nice job!
> Mecates & Bosals


Terri and Bob are great people who are very passionate about horses. There hackamores aren't my favorite but would be a good starting point. 

I have a hard time recommending hackamores, I have become quite a snob with my using gear. And I will be the first to admit that... I used to tell people to go out and just get a basic 5/8ths hackamore and experiment with it. But my experience has been that, they don't work the same as a well made one. So they try it out, it doesn't work like they want to, so they go back to the snaffle. I now reccomend that people save up for a very well made one. A lot of it comes down to fit on the horse, I have posted a picture below (it was actually posted earlier in the thread) that shows a well made hackamore on my horse. This hackamore was made by a very good friend of mine, who does incredible work and was taught by some of the best braiders before they passed on. Like Wanstrom Horses I usually trade for my stuff, but a hackamore like the one pictured costs around $400. But will work on all your horses, and last longer than you will. I don't want to discourage people from trying out the hackamore, we all have to start somewhere. Like Wanstrom Horses recommended look for a used one if you can or find a good one with a 7" nose button and between 12 and 16 plait bars, any more than that and you generally lose the function of the hackamore. Or look for a quality one on the links listed above they are all reputable, good dealers.


----------



## smrobs

Wanstrom Horses said:


> ...I have never ever seen another like it. And was wondering if maybe someone else had? The cheekpieces are also strange, it looks like the bit is backwards in this picture, but its not. Have you seen one like it? Sorry the picture is dark! We had just got in off the mountain and I snapped it last year.


I actually have one that has cheeks that look very similar to yours (I don't know how the mouth compares though). I've never used it...it doesn't even have a maker's mark on it. It was a gift to my Dad decades ago and I found it a few years ago in a bucket of old tack in the back corner of the tack room.

I wish I knew more about it.

I took these pictures right after I found it. I've managed to clean much of the rust off, but it's still not in great shape.


----------



## SeeyaLater

Hi!

I'm lookin for thoughts on hobbles. Good? Bad?


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

smrobs said:


> I actually have one that has cheeks that look very similar to yours (I don't know how the mouth compares though). I've never used it...it doesn't even have a maker's mark on it. It was a gift to my Dad decades ago and I found it a few years ago in a bucket of old tack in the back corner of the tack room.
> 
> I wish I knew more about it.
> 
> I took these pictures right after I found it. I've managed to clean much of the rust off, but it's still not in great shape.


That is more of a traditional spade mouthpiece, but generally the same idea on the shanks! Thats a neat bit!! I'll get a picture of the mouthpiece real quick. Not many bits confuse me, but I have never seen another like this Crockett.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Sorry about picture quality, the IPad has a terrible camera lol. But here it is. The mouthpiece is a lot taller than pictured. I really like the bit, it's balanced fantastic, but I've just never seen another. I have a Crockett with a traditional spade. But this one is the only one I've ever seen.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

SeeyaLater said:


> Hi!
> 
> I'm lookin for thoughts on hobbles. Good? Bad?


Rawhide or leather??


----------



## SeeyaLater

Leather. But, in general...I'm just looking for reaction to them as a training method.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

SeeyaLater said:


> Leather. But, in general...I'm just looking for reaction to them as a training method.


I did a post earlier in the thread about hobbles. I do believe horses should be hobble broke before any saddle training is done. It is a basic form of teaching a horse to yeild to pressure. So much can be taught to a horse using hobbles. From standning to be tied, standing for the farrier to standing to be mounted, they are an essential part of my training method. I have some pictures of some of my horses in hobble training if you would like


----------



## SeeyaLater

I'm thinking about going BACK to hobbles on an older horse. Horse is a product of shoddy work, and I'm thinking about "breaking it back down" for the beginning....


----------



## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Haha ask him if he does custom orders, I'm really liking it!! And they are very, very high quality oats! LOL


He sold the sewing machine a couple of years ago(it was an old rebuilt oil bath version) so we don't have much leather left. Maybe some Blue, green, turquoise or red? I will have to look, if so I can cut you a strip and send it to you just to get it gone.


And those oats would have to be *magical* for me to trade that bit, I am pretty sure that it would be grounds for divorce...LOL


----------



## Toymanator

All these questions, we need a separate section on the forum lol


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

COWCHICK77 said:


> He sold the sewing machine a couple of years ago(it was an old rebuilt oil bath version) so we don't have much leather left. Maybe some Blue, green, turquoise or red? I will have to look, if so I can cut you a strip and send it to you just to get it gone.
> 
> 
> And those oats would have to be *magical* for me to trade that bit, I am pretty sure that it would be grounds for divorce...LOL


Haha I know, husbands and their tack, its like taking an elk carcass from a wolf!  Well red and green would be great! Lol. I'd even pay you a little, never even thought about using chap leather for a horn wrap, you people are geniuses!!


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

SeeyaLater said:


> I'm thinking about going BACK to hobbles on an older horse. Horse is a product of shoddy work, and I'm thinking about "breaking it back down" for the beginning....


Theres not a problem with that, just work on yielding with a soft cotton rope first and then move to soft cotton hobbles. It takes a little time, but definatly worth while. It brings a whole new level of respect for boundaries with a horse.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Toymanator said:


> All these questions, we need a separate section on the forum lol


Yes!! NH has a section, why not us?!


----------



## SeeyaLater

That's what I was thinking, too. I saw that you're not a NH person. I struggle with that term. I think the problem with it is its misuse. It's been "branded/marketed" and gets a bad rap. Most are using it at some level - becuase is should be about solid communication. But, man, some of those videos and gimmicks are "yuck"....LOL


----------



## Running Whisper

Toymanator said:


> Scott and Staci are great people, but the hackamores they sell are imported from Mexico and generally have taped nose buttons.
> 
> 
> 
> I will see if I can find a quality hackamore on here for you. A good used one can last a looong time. I know some that are over a century old and are still being used.
> 
> 
> 
> I have only met the owner of Buckaroo Leather once, and don't know much about there hackamores.
> 
> 
> 
> Terri and Bob are great people who are very passionate about horses. There hackamores aren't my favorite but would be a good starting point.
> 
> I have a hard time recommending hackamores, I have become quite a snob with my using gear. And I will be the first to admit that... I used to tell people to go out and just get a basic 5/8ths hackamore and experiment with it. But my experience has been that, they don't work the same as a well made one. So they try it out, it doesn't work like they want to, so they go back to the snaffle. I now reccomend that people save up for a very well made one. A lot of it comes down to fit on the horse, I have posted a picture below (it was actually posted earlier in the thread) that shows a well made hackamore on my horse. This hackamore was made by a very good friend of mine, who does incredible work and was taught by some of the best braiders before they passed on. Like Wanstrom Horses I usually trade for my stuff, but a hackamore like the one pictured costs around $400. But will work on all your horses, and last longer than you will. I don't want to discourage people from trying out the hackamore, we all have to start somewhere. Like Wanstrom Horses recommended look for a used one if you can or find a good one with a 7" nose button and between 12 and 16 plait bars, any more than that and you generally lose the function of the hackamore. Or look for a quality one on the links listed above they are all reputable, good dealers.


So should I just start out with something cheaper but will work for a year or two than get a good bosal. Or should I just not even attempt anything with the bosal and just keep him in this Western SS Stop N Turn Bit - Horse.com. I really want to start him on a bosal though. And another question, for the mecate what kind do you personally like?


----------



## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Sorry about picture quality, the IPad has a terrible camera lol. But here it is. The mouthpiece is a lot taller than pictured. I really like the bit, it's balanced fantastic, but I've just never seen another. I have a Crockett with a traditional spade. But this one is the only one I've ever seen.


It's a Branquino(sp) style mouthpiece.


----------



## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Haha I know, husbands and their tack, its like taking an elk carcass from a wolf!  Well red and green would be great! Lol. I'd even pay you a little, never even thought about using chap leather for a horn wrap, you people are geniuses!!


LOL, I know it! He is so quick to trade my stuff off as I am to his. About a month ago I caught him taking pics of my Schutte mcarty that was made from all the horses in our strings at the last place we worked on to trade off! I chewed his *** for that one...LOL...he said it's ugly. It is, it came out "pink", whatever I like it.....

Don't get carried away with the "genius" stuff..give me a minute I will prove it wrong...LOL! (I will see what I can find for horn wrap and let you know)


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Running Whisper said:


> So should I just start out with something cheaper but will work for a year or two than get a good bosal. Or should I just not even attempt anything with the bosal and just keep him in this Western SS Stop N Turn Bit - Horse.com. I really want to start him on a bosal though. And another question, for the mecate what kind do you personally like?


I would start out with one from the places I listed, then upgrade later if you really want to hackamore train him. Then you can find out if it works for you and your horse without having a fortune into it. And I wont use anything but horsehair or mohair. But thats just me, anything will work though, its just based off personal preference.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

COWCHICK77 said:


> LOL, I know it! He is so quick to trade my stuff off as I am to his. About a month ago I caught him taking pics of my Schutte mcarty that was made from all the horses in our strings at the last place we worked on to trade off! I chewed his *** for that one...LOL...he said it's ugly. It is, it came out "pink", whatever I like it.....
> 
> Don't get carried away with the "genius" stuff..give me a minute I will prove it wrong...LOL! (I will see what I can find for horn wrap and let you know)


Well as of now, you are still in my "genius" category!!  Haha I would of chewed my hubby if he tried something like that on me too. Problem with mine is he will buy me something. Then a week later, I catch him packing it off!


----------



## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Well as of now, you are still in my "genius" category!!  Haha I would of chewed my hubby if he tried something like that on me too. Problem with mine is he will buy me something. Then a week later, I catch him packing it off!


Bahaha! Him and I are both guilty of that, we have gotten to the point where we just know that his birthday present is really mine and vice versa...we gave up finally..LOL


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

I know this is not related to this thread, I'm just directing attention to the horses I have for sale  but here is a link to the thread I just started on some ranch geldings we have for sale, going to an auction in Billings Montana at the end of the month. These aren't bridle horses, just cowboy horses, but a very nice set of geldings. Sorry for jumping off topic, but this is a thread where many follow the cowboy lifestyle. And who knows, maybe someone wants a nice ranch horse.  

http://www.horseforum.com/horses-sale/ranch-geldings-sale-billings-montana-149646/#post1840154


----------



## COWCHICK77

COWCHICK77 said:


> It's a Branquino(sp) style mouthpiece.


Gah! I knew I wasn't spelling it correctly, Barqueno! 
That would be the mouthpiece your bit has.

We have this bit, and as you can see by the Sharpie marks on the spoon, it is getting ready to get hacked on to make a barqueno...LOL. Las Cruces cheeks are not great for spades!


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

COWCHICK77 said:


> Gah! I knew I wasn't spelling it correctly, Barqueno!
> That would be the mouthpiece your bit has.
> 
> We have this bit, and as you can see by the Sharpie marks on the spoon, it is getting ready to get hacked on to make a barqueno...LOL. Las Cruces cheeks are not great for spades!


I can't stand Las Cruces lol. Thanks for clearing that up though. Just bumped you higher in my genius category!!


----------



## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I can't stand Las Cruces lol. Thanks for clearing that up though. Just bumped you higher in my genius category!!


LOL, I will keep trying not to disappoint! 

They are pretty, but not very functional unfortunately.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

COWCHICK77 said:


> LOL, I will keep trying not to disappoint!
> 
> They are pretty, but not very functional unfortunately.


Yep, I got rid of all mine rather quickly. They make a nice trading item though!


----------



## Toymanator

Running Whisper said:


> So should I just start out with something cheaper but will work for a year or two than get a good bosal. Or should I just not even attempt anything with the bosal and just keep him in this Western SS Stop N Turn Bit - Horse.com. I really want to start him on a bosal though. And another question, for the mecate what kind do you personally like?


I prefer a hackamore, I would purchase one of the hackamores from those links. Find one with a rawhide core, it will have tape in the buttons but you will be ok to have that as a first hackamore. Find one with a 7" nose button and between 12 and 16 plait bars. If you need me to explain this more let me know.

As far as mecates go I like mane hair or yak hair. But if you are on a budget you can use climbing or yacht rope.


----------



## Ian McDonald

wanstrom horses said:


> they make a nice trading item though! :d


for suckers! :d


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Ian McDonald said:


> for suckers! :d


Best people to trade with!!


----------



## 2SCHorses

Subbing! I've been reading this thread from the beginning and I am bleary-eyed, but it is very interesting!


----------



## mirage790

Well, home from my surgery of yesterday. The did keep me over night because there were complications with the surgery before me, so mine was delayed til 3:30 pm. When the dr came in this morning first thing I asked was how soon can I ride? He said to do a followup appointment in 2 weeks and he'd let me know then.  Otherwise the dr, nurses and physical therapist were all impressed with how well I'm doing already, so I guess that's wgod news. Just bo bending, lifting, or twisting til the followup. TWO WHOLE WEEKS YET!! AWK!!


----------



## mirage790

Wanstrom Horses said:


> OK, i got a question for you guys, maybe you have seen a bit like the one I have pictured below. It is a Crockett, I used it as a "starter spade for my horses" Is is basically a very high half-breed with low wire feelers. I have never ever seen another like it. And was wondering if maybe someone else had? The cheekpieces are also strange, it looks like the bit is backwards in this picture, but its not. Have you seen one like it? Sorry the picture is dark! We had just got in off the mountain and I snapped it last year.


I have seen several on Ebay. It reinds me of the cavalry S shape that wasn''t finished!!


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

mirage790 said:


> I have seen several on Ebay. It reinds me of the cavalry S shape that wasn''t finished!!


Cowchick figured out the mouthpiece, but the shanks are still really different to me. I think it's a Crockett thing. I have a Crockett spade that has the same cheek pieces except they are longer.


----------



## mirage790

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Oos!! Wrong video! Lol. It's the same clinic, but this is the wrong piece. Sorry!!


I realized which one you meant! lol I think I like his way because I tend to be slow and methodical too I've been told on boarder on perfectionism, but of course,_ I_ don't think so.  I'd rather err on the side of caution and take too long than get into the next step and have to back track because something didn't take.I hated that being pressed for time when I worked for the trainers.


----------



## mirage790

Toymanator said:


> I have written many things about spade bits because they are very misunderstood. I will try to bring up a few points and not get to lengthy in my description. If used correctly they can be much more "mild" than a standard snaffle.
> 
> The concept of "tongue relief" is a misnomer. If you relieve the tongue, the pressure has to go somewhere. And subsequently the pressure moves off of the tongue and the bars of the mouth are required to take the pressure. Are the bars of the mouth less sensitive than the tongue? The answer is no, the bars are filled with nerves that typically become callused and dull overtime because of pressure placed over them. This takes the sensitivity out of a horse, which directly goes against anyone trying to train a bridle horse. When working with horses you should try to prolong and preserve the sensitivity in a horse, especially in there mouth. The vaquero's and buckaroos understood this, they considered the mouth of the horse sacred. That is why they typically started horses around age 5-6, and kept them in a hackamore to keep the mouth light. A velvet lined mouth of a bridle horse is beautiful to me.
> 
> Another way to look at it is, that the spade bit is a signal based bit not a leverage based bit. The cannon bar (the bar that goes through the mouth) is straight in a true spade bit, because the horse has to learn to "pick the bit up and pack it" He cannot properly do this if there is tongue relief. The horse is able to hold the bit and brace against any incoming signals. The tongue is actually there for the safety of the horses mouth. You add in tongue relief to the cannon bar and you begin to inflict pain on the bars of the mouth, pain dulls your ability to communicate your signals because the horse will then begin to focus on relieving itself from the pain. Again it comes back to horses these days aren't taught to "pack" a bit and hold it in there mouth, they are instead taught to brace against it. The tongue of a horse is very sensitive and is one of the pre-signals I use when working with horses. The horse should be able to feel the vibration of the reins on it's tongue.
> 
> I have provided an extreme picture below that shows what "tongue relief" means to some people. When looking at it know that I consider it extreme and a terrible example of horsemanship, but it shows what a bit with "tongue relief" does to a horse. The picture is actually of a heeler who is top 10 in the world. My question is why do they make so many different "correction" bits for horses and no correction gloves for the riders... or maybe breakaway reins would be better?


YIKES! This horses problem is not the bit but the rider! But yeah, once something says "relief" on it people automatically thing it wont cause pain. My big beef is with the Tom Thumb broken mouth "snaffle."That is not a snaffle, it's a nut cracker. When I gave lessons I would put a student's arm in the bit like the horse's lower jaw would be and pulled on the reins. they learned really fast the importance of good hands!


----------



## mirage790

COWCHICK77 said:


> LOL! I love it...bar assault!
> 
> I agree, I am not into the "tongue relief"(bar assault:wink fad. Most horses really do not have a tongue _that _thick. And I have not found horses to really like it.
> 
> This is about as close to tongue relief as I get.
> The Las Cruces with the San Joaquin has been only used on one horse.(why it hangs with no rein chains or reins) A short fat rez horse that had the thickest tongue I have ever encountered loved this bit.
> The Teitjen we have used on several different horses, but it's a Teitjen so it's not going anywhere..LOL


These are like the mouthpiece on my bit. My horse has a thick tongue and simply can't loose his mouth on a bit with a straight mouthpiece bar like you see on many bits. His tongue squishes out the side of his mouth at the bars.


----------



## mirage790

mirage790 said:


> Unless your horse requires a larger than normal bridle I don't think you have to worry.
> Thanks, it WAS very traumatic at the time. (Too bad it wasn't his ornery old mare instead! lol)


if it's the bridle you are having trouble finding large enough, I assume you mean the crown and cheek together that would only affect the hanger. I made my own by looking at pics of what I liked and copied that.


----------



## jinx1990

I love this thread! I have a friend who trains his horses with this method and just a few days ago he offered to train my mare. I love riding his horses and I said yes without hesitating . I very excited to start learning this with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## COWCHICK77

Ian McDonald said:


> for suckers! :d


LOL! Call me a sucker! I can't help it, I like how clean and symmetrical they are...just not functional, **** it!



mirage790 said:


> Well, home from my surgery of yesterday. The did keep me over night because there were complications with the surgery before me, so mine was delayed til 3:30 pm. When the dr came in this morning first thing I asked was how soon can I ride? He said to do a followup appointment in 2 weeks and he'd let me know then.  Otherwise the dr, nurses and physical therapist were all impressed with how well I'm doing already, so I guess that's wgod news. Just bo bending, lifting, or twisting til the followup. TWO WHOLE WEEKS YET!! AWK!!


Glad to hear that your surgery went well! 
Sounds like you will be riding in no time


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

COWCHICK77 said:


> LOL! Call me a sucker! I can't help it, I like how clean and symmetrical they are...just not functional, **** it!
> 
> 
> 
> Glad to hear that your surgery went well!
> Sounds like you will be riding in no time


Well in that case, I'm bringing all kinds of Las Cruces to Winnemucca!!


----------



## Sunny

Good Lord. I just read the first thirty pages of this thread and I'm sweating. Too long!! :lol:

Just wanted to say to the OP, thanks for taking the time to explain things and share your knowledge. I enjoy reading about Vaquero riding, even though it's something I don't think I'll ever experience, at least not any time soon! Heck, I'm having a hard enough time getting my four-year-old to stop chomping her little snaffle to death! :lol:

In all seriousness, thanks for taking to time to write things out.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

mirage790 said:


> I realized which one you meant! lol I think I like his way because I tend to be slow and methodical too I've been told on boarder on perfectionism, but of course,_ I_ don't think so.  I'd rather err on the side of caution and take too long than get into the next step and have to back track because something didn't take.I hated that being pressed for time when I worked for the trainers.


Yeah, but I've found there's no difference in how long you ride your horse in a snaffle. The snaffle really doesn't teach much in the bridle horse program besides the basics when it comes to carrying a bit. Hell, if some horses are soft enough when I start them, I'll just go right to a hackamore and not use a snaffle. But that's just me. It's kind of hard to ride horses for people for a year in a snaffle when the owners breathing down your neck, lol!


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Sunny said:


> Good Lord. I just read the first thirty pages of this thread and I'm sweating. Too long!! :lol:
> 
> Just wanted to say to the OP, thanks for taking the time to explain things and share your knowledge. I enjoy reading about Vaquero riding, even though it's something I don't think I'll ever experience, at least not any time soon! Heck, I'm having a hard enough time getting my four-year-old to stop chomping her little snaffle to death! :lol:
> 
> In all seriousness, thanks for taking to time to write things out.


Thank you!!!


----------



## mirage790

COWCHICK77 said:


> LOL! Call me a sucker! I can't help it, I like how clean and symmetrical they are...just not functional, **** it!
> 
> 
> 
> Glad to hear that your surgery went well!
> Sounds like you will be riding in no time


Thanks,  I hope so too!


----------



## mirage790

COWCHICK77 said:


> LOL! Call me a sucker! I can't help it, I like how clean and symmetrical they are...just not functional, **** it!
> 
> 
> 
> Glad to hear that your surgery went well!
> Sounds like you will be riding in no time


Thanks,  I hope so too!


----------



## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Well in that case, I'm bringing all kinds of Las Cruces to Winnemucca!!


OK, let's not get carried away....LOL, I already own two or three and only own one horse that can effectively pack it. (horse runs around loose with his head pretty much on the vertical:shock:, I guess I lucked out!) However, if I enough cocktails.....haha


----------



## mirage790

Sunny said:


> Good Lord. I just read the first thirty pages of this thread and I'm sweating. Too long!! :lol:
> 
> Just wanted to say to the OP, thanks for taking the time to explain things and share your knowledge. I enjoy reading about Vaquero riding, even though it's something I don't think I'll ever experience, at least not any time soon! Heck, I'm having a hard enough time getting my four-year-old to stop chomping her little snaffle to death! :lol:
> 
> In all seriousness, thanks for taking to time to write things out.


LOL, I use the option of have more posts per page. It's not quite as intimidating that way.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

COWCHICK77 said:


> OK, let's not get carried away....LOL, I already own two or three and only own one horse that can effectively pack it. (horse runs around loose with his head pretty much on the vertical:shock:, I guess I lucked out!) However, if I enough cocktails.....haha


Hmm  I can't drink lol, but I will buy you all kinds of cocktails..


----------



## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Hmm  I can't drink lol, but I will buy you all kinds of cocktails..



Oh that's right, you are cooking baby biscuits!(congrats, by the way) Apparently you will have the advantage for trades by being sober...LOL


----------



## FaydesMom

Sunny said:


> <snip> In all seriousness, thanks for taking to time to write things out. <snip>


Indeed, thank you very much WH, very much appreciated. Now if only the weather would straighten up so we can get some videos going on. I'm a very "watch and learn" type of person, and I can't wait to see you in action. 

I talked to my brother last night, he lives in Heyburn, not too far from Twin. He says they had a bunch of the highway sections shut down due to blizzard conditions and they didn't know how long it was going to last. :shock:

Stay warm!!


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

FaydesMom said:


> Indeed, thank you very much WH, very much appreciated. Now if only the weather would straighten up so we can get some videos going on. I'm a very "watch and learn" type of person, and I can't wait to see you in action.
> 
> I talked to my brother last night, he lives in Heyburn, not too far from Twin. He says they had a bunch of the highway sections shut down due to blizzard conditions and they didn't know how long it was going to last. :shock:
> 
> Stay warm!!


Yes, the weather is making doing anything really tough. I tried to make a video the other day, but it was so windy you couldn't hear me. Lol. And we are closer to the mountains than Heyburn, so about twice as much snow!! It pretty much sucks. 
Cowchick, that is my plan! lol and thanks, we are so excited! It's a boy!!


----------



## mirage790

FaydesMom said:


> Indeed, thank you very much WH, very much appreciated. Now if only the weather would straighten up so we can get some videos going on. I'm a very "watch and learn" type of person, and I can't wait to see you in action.
> 
> I talked to my brother last night, he lives in Heyburn, not too far from Twin. He says they had a bunch of the highway sections shut down due to blizzard conditions and they didn't know how long it was going to last. :shock:
> 
> Stay warm!!


And here in Mich we have 55 degrees and rain! Of course, once I get my post-op OK, the weather be back to normal for this time of year!


----------



## mirage790

Wanstrom Horses said:


> we are so excited! It's a boy!!


Congrats!! How far long again?


----------



## mirage790

jinx1990 said:


> I love this thread! I have a friend who trains his horses with this method and just a few days ago he offered to train my mare. I love riding his horses and I said yes without hesitating . I very excited to start learning this with her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What a lucky opportunity! I'd jump on it!!


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

6 months!  thank you!


----------



## Skunkworks

Wanstrom Horses said:


> 6 months!  thank you!


And you can still ride  I had to quit at 5 months because my daughter decided she was going to shove herself down into my hips and it got too painful to ride. Congrats


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Skunkworks said:


> And you can still ride  I had to quit at 5 months because my daughter decided she was going to shove herself down into my hips and it got too painful to ride. Congrats


I'm still cowboying, lol. If i dont it cuts our income in half. I havent had any problems yet. Keeping my fingers crossed! Thanks


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

*Mouthpieces*

Well gotta get back on track here. I've decided today, since the weather is still terrrible, I'll a some posts on bridle bits. I'll start out here with a few different mouthpieces. First the "Traditional Spade". There are many different variations to the Spade mouthpiece, but this is what the traditional mouthpiece is. Some spades have tounge relief, dont have rollers, have copper rollers instead of wire feelers, but this is your traditional spade bit. Second is the most common variation of the Spade, the Spoon spade. You can see the moutpiece itself is a lot shorter than the traditional, and the spade is rounded out in a "spoon" shape. Third is the frog bit. Basically a modified half breed, the port is rounded and the bar piece is interrupted with a cricket, making it more mild than your traditional half breed bit. Then, the traditional half breed, this is my favorite bit for two-rein horses. It has a good balanced feel to it and prepares a horse for taller mouthpieces. And then I've included a couple variations of the Barqueno bit (which I just learned the proper name for from genuis lady, Cowchick:lol. The first is the traditonal Barqueno mouthpiece and then the "modified" Barqueno. I used the traditonal Braqueno for a "starter spade" for my bridle horses when they first come out of the two rein. And then the traditional "Mona Lisa" mouthpiece. This a good bit for horses that are really busy and need a full mouth to focus when they first come into the two rein. They also prepare a horse's palate for larger bits.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Mona Lisa


----------



## Ian McDonald

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I'm still cowboying, lol. If i dont it cuts our income in half. I havent had any problems yet. Keeping my fingers crossed! Thanks


Man, you are one tough chick! That is amazing. 

This thread just keeps getting better. Had a thought. What if some of us who were interested in this style of horsemanship were to start making our own horses into bridle horses and posting progress, comparing notes and other things? I'm thinkin it could be kinda cool!


----------



## AnrewPL

What are you opinions on using loose and or stiff jawed bits?


----------



## mirage790

AnrewPL said:


> What are you opinions on using loose and or stiff jawed bits?


Good question! When I rode English I didn't the loose cheek bits. Not the snaffle, which I preferred loose rings, but anything considered a curb bit in English circles. I always thought the "slop" in them interfered with the signal, but I may be wrong. Any else have thoughts on this?


----------



## mirage790

[/QUOTE]This thread just keeps getting better. Had a thought. What if some of us who were interested in this style of horsemanship were to start making our own horses into bridle horses and posting progress, comparing notes and other things? I'm thinkin it could be kinda cool![/QUOTE]

Isn't that what we are doing...kind of?


----------



## AnrewPL

Yeah, I was always taught that the loose jawed bits are better at giving a little before you get to any pull and so can allow for a softer signal.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

AnrewPL said:


> What are you opinions on using loose and or stiff jawed bits?


I think loose jawed leverage bits cause a lot of problems for people, and can make a horse iron mouthed faster than a solid jawed bit. People tend to "miuse" the loose-jawed leverage bit. Just because its loose jawed its milder, right? Wrong. People automaticaly think that just because a bit is loose jawed, then can use more pressure. What many dont realize is that the signal in a solid jawed bit can be ten times as soft a loose jawed bit, and just as clear. Any bit, wether it is a broken mouthed bit or not, if it has shanks is a leverage bit. And one mouthpiece can be just as severe as the other if used wrongly. I dont like loose jawed mouthpieces in the least. Solid jawed bits get a better response for the horse, lessening cues and making more responsive horses. Hope this makes sense!! 
Ian, I'm not tough, but I have to do what I got to do, lol. But yes, anyone feel free to post anything!!


----------



## COWCHICK77

AnrewPL said:


> What are you opinions on using loose and or stiff jawed bits?





mirage790 said:


> Good question! When I rode English I didn't the loose cheek bits. Not the snaffle, which I preferred loose rings, but anything considered a curb bit in English circles. I always thought the "slop" in them interfered with the signal, but I may be wrong. Any else have thoughts on this?


LOL...I call it "slop" too.

Personally, I like some slop. The slop allows more pre-signal before the bit engages. When I pick a bit up I look straight down it and wiggle it back and forth to see how much slop it has and if it is even on both sides. Some of that comes with use. We have one spade that is well over 50 years old and is great for introducing the spade because it is "broke in"(but not dilapidated). It moves around quite a bit and you can play with the looseness before you really have to pick up a rein, much like you do with the hackamore.
Both of the Las Cruces bits I posted earlier are fixed and coupled with a straight shank makes it happen right now. When you touch the reins, you are engaging the bit. 
As a horse becomes more refined you do not need as much slop or play.


----------



## Ian McDonald

This thread just keeps getting better. Had a thought. What if some of us who were interested in this style of horsemanship were to start making our own horses into bridle horses and posting progress, comparing notes and other things? I'm thinkin it could be kinda cool![/QUOTE]

Isn't that what we are doing...kind of?[/QUOTE]

Oh yah. Rock n roll then! XD


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Yeah, I like all my solid bits to move slightly, but I dont really like a loose jawed bit. Hey! I've been needing to ask. Do you wear ******? I wear armitas and I found two pairs of ****** today. Really nice. Ones elk-hide. I can't stand ******, but I dont need them. And if anyone else on here is interested in them, let me know, lol! I dont even remeber why I have them!


----------



## COWCHICK77

Maybe I misunderstood the question...

Are we just talking about bits with slobber bars/chains or comparing bits without slobber bars/chains to those that have them?


I like armitas too  Sorry don't need any ******.


----------



## AnrewPL

Yeah, cowchick, that’s how I have always thought of it too. 
OK, hang on I think we might be talking about a different kind of loose jaw v stiff jaw. I call a lose jawed bit one where there is a joint between the bar and the shanks and a stiff jawed bit one where the bar is set into the shanks rigidly and will never developed any give.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

I've attached two different bits. The first is a loose-jawed spade and the other is your traditional fixed jaw spade. I do want my fixed-jaw bits to move slightly, but I wont use a loose jawed bridle bit. A horse can learn to pick up the mouthpiece with his bars, not his tongue in a loose jawed mouthpiece and this can ruin signals. In all my experience, I want the horse to move with the mouthpiece, not the mouthpiece with the horse.


----------



## AnrewPL

Ok I see now. I have always known any bit that has any give at all between the bar and the shanks as a lose jawed bit and anything where the bar is set in hard to the bars as a stiff jawed bit, like the average grazer bit. So in that scheme you’d prefer less give than more right?


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Well, I believe a bit should move just slightly, but I call bits like the first Gracia bit I posted above to be a "loose jawed" bit. I wont use bits like that, but I do like a little movement in my fixed jaw bits in the joints. If that makes sense lol. I misunderstood the question


----------



## AnrewPL

No problem, I think I just have my terminology off. Thanks.


----------



## Toymanator

We could get really technical into spade bits, there is a lot too them. The different pieces and how they function. I thought I would post some pictures of some neat spades and one in a horses mouth for reference.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Who made that first bit?


----------



## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Well, I believe a bit should move just slightly, but I call bits like the first Gracia bit I posted above to be a "loose jawed" bit. I wont use bits like that, but I do like a little movement in my fixed jaw bits in the joints. If that makes sense lol. I misunderstood the question


I think we are all saying the same thing??? LOL

You want some movement, like you described, in the joints the bit which will move the braces slightly giving signal. But there is a possibility of _too_ much movement which can actually confusing and not sending a clear signal.
Yet no movement at all does not give much signal and you instantly engage the bit not allowing the horse time to react before the bit takes hold.
Right?


----------



## Toymanator

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Who made that first bit?


The feather spade? I am not positive and don't want to guess wrong. Let me go check... We aren't too far from each other, we received 34" of snow over the weekend. And it is currently -1 outside so it may take me a bit (pun intended) to get the motivation.


----------



## AnrewPL

****, 34” of snow. And here we are surrounded by bushfires.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Yes, I think we are all on the same page now lol.  haha Toymanator, don't worry about it! It's a really nice bit!!


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

AnrewPL said:


> ****, 34” of snow. And here we are surrounded by bushfires.


Haha we were surrounded by bush fires all summer, now we are buried in snow


----------



## COWCHICK77

I think Bruce Haener???(sp)


----------



## AnrewPL

at least we dont get the snow in winter, not around here at least.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Well, it's time for me to go get a horse and head to the calving barn. Continue this!! I'll be back after while!!


----------



## Toymanator

When it comes to spade bits, taller is better and more comfortable. As it allows the horse to pick up the bit and carry it. Riders generally get nervous putting a spade bit in a horses mouth because they are afraid it will hit the top of the pallet and damage the mouth. If adjusted correctly the bit is never able to come in contact with the top of the horses mouth. Even if used improperly the curb strap goes into effect and stops the mouth piece from moving upwards. Unlike most bits today, the curb strap is used to position the spade bit, not as part of the action of the bit. In most bits today the curb strap is used for leverage instead of a means to position the mouthpiece. Also notice on the spades that I posted, the distance or space between the braces and the cannon bar. Many lower end or cheap bits have the braces directly above or resting on the cannon bar. This doesn't help the horse. The braces need to have space for the horse to be able to work it's tongue and properly pack the bit. Also notice that the spade doesn't go above the first pre molars in a horses mouth.


----------



## Toymanator

COWCHICK77 said:


> I think Bruce Haener???(sp)


It does look a lot like a Haener bit, that was my first guess, you are probably correct... Still trying to muster up the motivation to go check.


----------



## COWCHICK77

Toymanator said:


> It does look a lot like a Haener bit, that was my first guess, you are probably correct... Still trying to muster up the motivation to go check.


LOL, I know, it's cold outside, I wouldn't go out either to look! I thought maybe you plucked those pics from the internet..LOL!


----------



## Toymanator

COWCHICK77 said:


> LOL, I know, it's cold outside, I wouldn't go out either to look! I thought maybe you plucked those pics from the internet..LOL!


I did take the last two from the internet. It was just my luck that the question was asked about the one I owned. I just went out and looked it is a Haener bit.


----------



## cowgirl4753

Alright, I just wanted to say that I absolutely LOVE this thread and am learning so much! So thank you
My next thing is, is there anyway to get this made into its own category so we can have individual threads. This way if someone was looking for bosal info they could go to one thread with all the info, and so on, instead of going through 50+ pages. 
Not sure if its possible just a thought, looking forward to learning more from all you talented people!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Fort fireman

My wife was plinking around on this thread and was curious. She grew up in great falls Montana and her family had a ranch. However she never messed around with the bridle horse stuff. Now she is diehard English. Mostly dressage and hunter jumpers. She was out hacking around yesterday and asked if she could try my hackamore on her dressage horse. It didn't fit great cause its shaped for my bucket head quarter horse but she did well. She may be coming to the dark side. :lol:



Here's a video of my daughter riding with me. She trotted for the first time. You can hear her having a good time if you turn up the volume. Sorry about the fat horse and fat guy. . We both have the same problem. Work our asses off but still can't loose it.


----------



## Fort fireman

ok for some reason the video isn't working. I'll try to figure it out.


----------



## Fort fireman

IMG_1029.mp4 video by fortfireman | Photobucket


----------



## Fort fireman

IMG_1046.mp4 video by fortfireman | Photobucket

Here's another video. This one shows her huge smile. :lol:


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Fort fireman said:


> My wife was plinking around on this thread and was curious. She grew up in great falls Montana and her family had a ranch. However she never messed around with the bridle horse stuff. Now she is diehard English. Mostly dressage and hunter jumpers. She was out hacking around yesterday and asked if she could try my hackamore on her dressage horse. It didn't fit great cause its shaped for my bucket head quarter horse but she did well. She may be coming to the dark side. :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a video of my daughter riding with me. She trotted for the first time. You can hear her having a good time if you turn up the volume. Sorry about the fat horse and fat guy. . We both have the same problem. Work our asses off but still can't loose it.


Aww! I love kids and horses! Nice looking horse, btw


----------



## Fort fireman

Thank you. He is pretty fat right now. You can't tell it in that video or this time of year but he is a red roan. I have a pic of my wife's horse with her on her. However she is in the same condition as you (pregnant)and made some threats to me if I posted a pic of her. :lol: I've been down this road so I played it safe. :lol:

Congrats to you by the way. I saw earlier you're expecting a boy. We are going to find out mid February I believe. I haven't even made an ultrasound yet between work and daddy day. :lol:


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Fort fireman said:


> Thank you. He is pretty fat right now. You can't tell it in that video or this time of year but he is a red roan. I have a pic of my wife's horse with her on her. However she is in the same condition as you (pregnant)and made some threats to me if I posted a pic of her. :lol: I've been down this road so I played it safe. :lol:
> 
> Congrats to you by the way. I saw earlier you're expecting a boy. We are going to find out mid February I believe. I haven't even made an ultrasound yet between work and daddy day. :lol:


Pssh, all my horses are super fat too! Even the ones we have been night calving on, they are all super fat and trying to stay warm, lol. -29 degrees last night here!! At least it looks kinda warm where your at. Tell her not to feel bad, I'm huge and my husband thinks its great fun to laugh at me when I try and stack dallies with my belly in the way  Thanks, and congrats to you too!!


----------



## COWCHICK77

^^^ oh geez, I bet that is a sight...tee he, mean husband!

And Fort fireman, that poor kid, she don't look like she is having any fun at all! LOL!


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

COWCHICK77 said:


> ^^^ oh geez, I bet that is a sight...tee he, mean husband!
> 
> And Fort fireman, that poor kid, she don't look like she is having any fun at all! LOL!


Oh yes, its so gosh darn funny!!!


----------



## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Oh yes, its so gosh darn funny!!!


Well, you know, it is always funny until it happens to you...
When your hubby can't dally because his gut is too big from not pushing back from the dinner table or too many beers, then you can have your revenge!:twisted:


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

COWCHICK77 said:


> Well, you know, it is always funny until it happens to you...
> When your hubby can't dally because his gut is too big from not pushing back from the dinner table or too many beers, then you can have your revenge!:twisted:


Higher in my genius category!!:twisted: im going to start cooking his favorites more often :lol:


----------



## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Higher in my genius category!!:twisted: im going to start cooking his favorites more often :lol:


LOL! Nice! Then when he obtains butterball status you can remind him on those nights you don't feel like cooking that you are only doing him a favor...pure meanness...:lol:


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

To everyone who asked and PMed me on hobble training, there is a thread going on right now that has some good info on it.. I will try and get a post, either tonight Or in the morning on this thread that goes more into depth about hobble training. But here's the link to that thread!! 
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/hobble-breaking-horses-149952/


----------



## Fort fireman

COWCHICK77 said:


> ^^^ oh geez, I bet that is a sight...tee he, mean husband!
> 
> And Fort fireman, that poor kid, she don't look like she is having any fun at all! LOL!


Ya, being my daughter really opens her up to all kinds of abuse like horse back riding, being outside in the fresh air , riding in a pickup down farm roads, spending time with me. Maybe hunting when she gets older( if she shows an interest) You know really bad stuff.:lol:

Of course she does have to deal with me when I get stuck going to Walmart to grocery shop and she goes with me. I hate that place and I've been getting stuck doing it now that my wife is working Monday- Friday instead of her shift work. But we all have our crosses to bear.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

My husband can't stand groceriy shopping either lol. Anyways. With this terrible weather, I heard on the radio this morning that we probably wont see sun until this weekend. So I wont be doing much. I need posting ideas. Lol. Im thinking about going more into the mechanics of spade bits? Or if someone else has a better idea?


----------



## Fort fireman

What about some of the differences or similarities of the riders position and body usage in this type of riding to some of the other styles. Hand position, seat , leg position. Things like that. Maybe it's just me and some of the pics I've seen but alot of the buckaroo/ vaquero riders tend to hold their hands up a tad higher when the horse starts in the two rein and straight up versus some of the other types of riding. Is this due to the mechanics of the bit?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_il1pQT0vz...4qkAInS-E/s1600/Bruce+Sandifer+Two+rein+2.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_il1pQT0vz...d7DqvidNQ/s1600/Bruce+Sandifer+Two+rein+3.jpg


----------



## westerncowgurl

finally got caught uo in the thread! my internet was down for a bit
fort fireman that video is soo cute! looks like she was haveing a blast


----------



## COWCHICK77

^^^Both of those ideas are great 

I am speaking from my experience and what works from me....

Having my hand a little higher, I have noticed, helps the horse break at the poll and elevate the front end. I am not talking about babysitting him into position. But if you lift up and bump rather than pull down and back you get a much better response. Pulling back and down is usually met with resistance and the horse trying to throw his head up and away which weighs down the front then stringing him out.
For me it feels natural to hold my hand a little higher and centered if I am sitting straight and centered. It is easy to start dropping a shoulder when lowering your hand, which in turn can cause your horse to drop his. 
I have made a huge effort to change my position in the last year or so after seeing some bad habits in pictures of myself. I have noticed that with those changes it has made my riding and my roping better.


----------



## Toymanator

COWCHICK77 said:


> ^^^Both of those ideas are great
> 
> I am speaking from my experience and what works from me....
> 
> Having my hand a little higher, I have noticed, helps the horse break at the poll and elevate the front end. I am not talking about babysitting him into position. But if you lift up and bump rather than pull down and back you get a much better response. Pulling back and down is usually met with resistance and the horse trying to throw his head up and away which weighs down the front then stringing him out.
> For me it feels natural to hold my hand a little higher and centered if I am sitting straight and centered. It is easy to start dropping a shoulder when lowering your hand, which in turn can cause your horse to drop his.
> I have made a huge effort to change my position in the last year or so after seeing some bad habits in pictures of myself. I have noticed that with those changes it has made my riding and my roping better.


You said what I have seen as well. The pictures are of Bruce Sandifer, he is an excellent hand and a real classy guy. His style of working a horse is very Californio Vaquero through and through. He works off of signals and balance, one of the things he has taught me is that *you lift your reins*, as your signal. You don't pull, the vaquero way is signal based, with less emphasis on the pull. You start with your hands out wide in the hackamore and gradually bring them into center above the saddle horn with your hands slightly in front. Then lift them to cue the motion of the horse. When working in the hackamore you lift and slack in rhythm to teach the horse the advanced movements.


----------



## COWCHICK77

^^^ glad I am not too far off 

I should add that that hand position is handy for roping too. Then you already have the proper rein length so you are not accidentally pulling on his face to get your rein/coil hand out of the way as if your hand was low, in front of or on top of the horn.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Couldnt of said it better myself


----------



## Fort fireman

I'm glad to hear I'm not to far off. I've noticed that and have been kinda trying to emulate it a bit. However it felt like I was doing it wrong because everything you usually here is keep your hands low and stuff like that. I watched the video with my daughter and I riding and I noticed some things that might change a bit if I held my hands up a bit more. However it's kinda tough with a little girl in the saddle in front of ya. Ill have to play around one day when I'm on my own.


----------



## AnrewPL

I have a question about a bit of hackamore training that I have seen on youtube. It got me thinking because it seemed to be the complete opposite of what I was taught about handling a mecate so Im kind of interested in the ideas behind it. And here in Australia the only input I have ever had dealing with it first hand was from the person who taught me, we aren’t surrounded by bridle horse trainers here, so I might not be seeing the variety in the different styles that are out there.


Basically the question is: I was watching a couple of YT clips of some guys hackamore training their horses, I cant remember the names of the guys, but they both were riding young horses, cant remember exactly, but probably within their 15th ride or so, and both said you need to keep bumping the horse with the bosal to get them to tuck their nose. So as they rode about they were constantly wiggling the bosal on the horse's nose getting them to tuck their nose.
This struck me as odd because I was taught to keep the reins pretty silent unless you were asking for something and to worry about getting the horse's nose down after they were softened a bit initially so as not to over-load them with too much going on with the bosal at any one time, especially in the early stages. 
Now I have to say that though what these guys were doing contradicted what I was taught, their horses looked to be going pretty damned well, so I wouldn’t be so naïve as to come out and say what they were doing was wrong, rather Im guessing they might know something I probably don’t.


So I guess Im wondering what all you think about this constant bumping off the bosal these guys were doing. It wasn't hard or anything, just like a constant wiggle, but it seemed to me, in terms of what I learned, it would introduce a lot of static and cloud up the signal when you wanted it. 


Ill try to find the YT clips latter for reference.


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## Ian McDonald

Just something I was enjoying watching and thinking about here. Really getting interested in the two-rein, of late. :]


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## Beatrice9

thesilverspear said:


> I also don't think anyone should be *encouraged* to start a horse by tying up one of its front legs. Just because some "old school" cowboys did it doesn't make it a good idea. They had many ideas (often regarding the treatment of women) that were less than ethical.
> 
> No amount of money could convince me to sit on a horse (and I have started a few) that had one of its legs tied up -- I could think of worse ideas, but not many.


I don't recommend doing this one a green horse, because they haven't learned to balance a rider yet. But a broke horse I would do this to teach the bow while under saddle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wanstrom Horses

Elizabethan87 said:


> I don't recommend doing this one a green horse, because they haven't learned to balance a rider yet. But a broke horse I would do this to teach the bow while under saddle.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you have misunderstood the concept. The horses leg isn't tied to itself. When the rider mounts, all four of the horses feet are on the ground. Another rider has a rope on the horses foot. The horse has all the slack unless it decides to buck. Then the other rider dallies and pulls the horses foot. Disabling it to buck. I don't do this because I like bucking a horse out. But this works well for people who don't want to try and ride the buck out of a horse.


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## Wanstrom Horses

AnrewPL said:


> I have a question about a bit of hackamore training that I have seen on youtube. It got me thinking because it seemed to be the complete opposite of what I was taught about handling a mecate so Im kind of interested in the ideas behind it. And here in Australia the only input I have ever had dealing with it first hand was from the person who taught me, we aren’t surrounded by bridle horse trainers here, so I might not be seeing the variety in the different styles that are out there.
> 
> 
> Basically the question is: I was watching a couple of YT clips of some guys hackamore training their horses, I cant remember the names of the guys, but they both were riding young horses, cant remember exactly, but probably within their 15th ride or so, and both said you need to keep bumping the horse with the bosal to get them to tuck their nose. So as they rode about they were constantly wiggling the bosal on the horse's nose getting them to tuck their nose.
> This struck me as odd because I was taught to keep the reins pretty silent unless you were asking for something and to worry about getting the horse's nose down after they were softened a bit initially so as not to over-load them with too much going on with the bosal at any one time, especially in the early stages.
> Now I have to say that though what these guys were doing contradicted what I was taught, their horses looked to be going pretty damned well, so I wouldn’t be so naïve as to come out and say what they were doing was wrong, rather Im guessing they might know something I probably don’t.
> 
> 
> So I guess Im wondering what all you think about this constant bumping off the bosal these guys were doing. It wasn't hard or anything, just like a constant wiggle, but it seemed to me, in terms of what I learned, it would introduce a lot of static and cloud up the signal when you wanted it.
> 
> 
> Ill try to find the YT clips latter for reference.


Yeai, I'd like to see those videos. Ive never done it, but I can understand where the concept is coming from. I don't wiggle my hackamore on a horses nose, I just give soft tugs with a lot of release in like the first five rides of the transition to get a horse to soften up and give to the hackamore. I'd like to see the video so maybe I could get more of an idea.


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## texasgal

Whew .... 58 pages .. I'm IN.

Enjoyed to Sheila Varian conversation also .. My mare's sire is Monarch V .. by Huckleberry Bey .. love those "V" horses. *grin*

Looking forward to the continued convo and pics!


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## Fort fireman

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Yeai, I'd like to see those videos. Ive never done it, but I can understand where the concept is coming from. I don't wiggle my hackamore on a horses nose, I just give soft tugs with a lot of release in like the first five rides of the transition to get a horse to soften up and give to the hackamore. I'd like to see the video so maybe I could get more of an idea.


I think one of the videos Andrew pl is talking about may be Larry Trocha. I seem to remember one of his talking about the bumping.


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## Fort fireman




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## Beatrice9

Fort fireman said:


> I think one of the videos Andrew pl is talking about may be Larry Trocha. I seem to remember one of his talking about the bumping.


I saw the same video you are referring to, I like Larry Trocha's videos. Actually, between him and that rude guy from "horse awareness" I was inspired to not use a bit. I don't do shows though, not enough time and too many kids. 

My friend has these Vaquero horses, they are amazing. He taught my 5 year old daughter how to ride them. He had a mare he offered to sell us for $2,000, he could never get the spook out of her, that was just her. He sold her 5 y/o son for $25,000! Not sure what he ended up selling her for, sadly he had a hard time making a living in the states and moved back home. :-( I really regret not buying her, my daughter was very attached to her. He actually put a handle on my gelding for me when I first bought him. The different training approach seems so much more effective when sitting there watching it, versus natural horsemanship methods. My gelding occasionally spooks at weird things, we will be walking around the arena and maybe the 4th or 5th pass (nothing changes, no noises, no wind, all alone) he will get spooked (by a blade of grass maybe? lol). And dirt bikes scare him. But other than that he isn't afraid of anything, and I have NO idea how to break him from spooking over something I can't even see, or have no idea of what he is even spooking over! This is my question for the OP. :grin:


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## LisaG

Elizabethan87 said:


> My gelding occasionally spooks at weird things, we will be walking around the arena and maybe the 4th or 5th pass (nothing changes, no noises, no wind, all alone) he will get spooked (by a blade of grass maybe? lol). And dirt bikes scare him. But other than that he isn't afraid of anything, and I have NO idea how to break him from spooking over something I can't even see, or have no idea of what he is even spooking over! This is my question for the OP. :grin:


There's a sticky thread about training fearless trail horses that would address that issue.

I'm loving the old school training stuff on this thread, but I'm hoping it doesn't get totally buried by other stuff. It's hard to keep up on all the posts.


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## Beatrice9

LisaG said:


> There's a sticky thread about training fearless trail horses that would address that issue.
> 
> I'm loving the old school training stuff on this thread, but I'm hoping it doesn't get totally buried by other stuff. It's hard to keep up on all the posts.


You're right, I agree! I'll search for that thread.


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## AnrewPL

Thanks Fort fireman, that is one of them, the other was a guy in a big wooden round yard, Ill try to find it today if I have the time.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Fort fireman said:


> Horse Training with a Hackamore (Bosal) - YouTube


Ok, after watching this I understand what Anrew was Talking about. And this is what I do with my horses going in to a hackamore, but I only do it the first three or so rides, because I find they horses can tend to get irritated with it. This is good for getting the horse to get a feel for it and soften up. I also like to free lunge my colts with a bosal a few times before I ride them with it so they can get used to how it moves and hangs on their head.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Elizabethan87 said:


> I saw the same video you are referring to, I like Larry Trocha's videos. Actually, between him and that rude guy from "horse awareness" I was inspired to not use a bit. I don't do shows though, not enough time and too many kids.
> 
> My friend has these Vaquero horses, they are amazing. He taught my 5 year old daughter how to ride them. He had a mare he offered to sell us for $2,000, he could never get the spook out of her, that was just her. He sold her 5 y/o son for $25,000! Not sure what he ended up selling her for, sadly he had a hard time making a living in the states and moved back home. :-( I really regret not buying her, my daughter was very attached to her. He actually put a handle on my gelding for me when I first bought him. The different training approach seems so much more effective when sitting there watching it, versus natural horsemanship methods. My gelding occasionally spooks at weird things, we will be walking around the arena and maybe the 4th or 5th pass (nothing changes, no noises, no wind, all alone) he will get spooked (by a blade of grass maybe? lol). And dirt bikes scare him. But other than that he isn't afraid of anything, and I have NO idea how to break him from spooking over something I can't even see, or have no idea of what he is even spooking over! This is my question for the OP. :grin:


Dirtbikes I can understand lol. My horses would probably be terrified of them too. But is your horse buddy sour?


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## Beatrice9

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Dirtbikes I can understand lol. My horses would probably be terrified of them too. But is your horse buddy sour?


He prefers the company of other horses, he doesn't usually spook when they are around. Unless they spook of course... Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wanstrom Horses

Elizabethan87 said:


> He prefers the company of other horses, he doesn't usually spook when they are around. Unless they spook of course... Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok. Does he spook at something and then look for the other horses? I think, just by what your telling me, I might have him figured out. Lol


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## Beatrice9

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Ok. Does he spook at something and then look for the other horses? I think, just by what your telling me, I might have him figured out. Lol


Hahaha he will get nervous about something, but if other horses are there he will be fine. If we are alone, he spooks at what seems like might only be a gust of wind, and he LOOSES IT! He just comes unglued until I pull him into circles and give him time to get over the fear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wanstrom Horses

Elizabethan87 said:


> Hahaha he will get nervous about something, but if other horses are there he will be fine. If we are alone, he spooks at what seems like might only be a gust of wind, and he LOOSES IT! He just comes unglued until I pull him into circles and give him time to get over the fear.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you horses problem lies in him being more herd bound than spooked. His freak outs sound like they are from being alone verses scared. When that horse, after getting him used to it in a round pen, carry a quirt with you and give him a smack on the *** every time he freaks at something. In his case he needs to know that his habit is bad. When you pull him into to circles, he gets to look back for buddies from the way he came, and he spooks, just so he can look back and see if any other horses are there. I had a gelding that was the same way and I'd whop him with a quirt every time he freaked at something and he eventually gave it up.


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## Beatrice9

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I think you horses problem lies in him being more herd bound than spooked. His freak outs sound like they are from being alone verses scared. When that horse, after getting him used to it in a round pen, carry a quirt with you and give him a smack on the *** every time he freaks at something. In his case he needs to know that his habit is bad. When you pull him into to circles, he gets to look back for buddies from the way he came, and he spooks, just so he can look back and see if any other horses are there. I had a gelding that was the same way and I'd whop him with a quirt every time he freaked at something and he eventually gave it up.


Ok I will try this, thanks!


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## Wanstrom Horses

Elizabethan87 said:


> Ok I will try this, thanks!


You are welcome!! And good luck!!


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## Wanstrom Horses

*Cinches??*

OK, I figured I would post this. I got into an argument with the owner of a saddle shop here about what type of cinch works best for horses. Its stuck in my head so I figured I'd post it. Now days, we see tons of different options when it comes to cinches. Neoprene, cotton, nylon, mohair, alpaca, horse hair, etc. But what cinch really is the best for your horse? In all my experience, as much as me and my hubby ride, I find nylon, cotton and neoprene to do noting but sore a horse. Neoprene doesn't breath, at all. Granted it doesnt slip. I like using neoprene cinches when Im starting colts and doing arena work. My saddle doesn't slip as much, or if I'm team roping or barrel racing, I like how a neoprene cinch holds my saddle. But as far as everyday riding and ranch work, I find the mohair cinch or alpaca to be the best. They wont sore a horse like neoprene or nylon will, they breath and they stay soft. And then we come to the horse hair cinch. I'm not exactly sure what the purpose of a horse hair cinch is. I've never used one because it seems like it would just be a galling SOB. If someone has ever used horse hair, would you let me know how they are?? Heres a few pictures, Alpaca, mohair, horse hair.


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## AnrewPL

I have two cinches that are all but identical to the ones in the pic on the bottom right, I put them on the charro saddle I built, one as a front girth the other as a flank girth, and they are great.


What size bosal do you use when you lunge your horses? I found a one inch one with felt covering works well; Id like a good cotton rope to go with it but haven’t had the time to find one.


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## Wanstrom Horses

AnrewPL said:


> I have two cinches that are all but identical to the ones in the pic on the bottom right, I put them on the charro saddle I built, one as a front girth the other as a flank girth, and they are great.
> 
> 
> What size bosal do you use when you lunge your horses? I found a one inch one with felt covering works well; Id like a good cotton rope to go with it but haven’t had the time to find one.


Do you like horse hair cinches? I just used whatever I'm going to ride them in. Usually just a 5/8, usually with a 16plait nose button. I just free lunge them around for a few days just so they can get a feel for it.


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## AnrewPL

Nah, the ones I have are mohair, the only horse hair on them is the shoo-fly. I tried some synthetic girths a few times and never liked them, I always end up getting mohair. Here's a photo of them on the saddle.


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## Wanstrom Horses

No picture  yeah I love mohair cinches. I'm just really curious about the horse hair ones. I dont really see them being good, but I may be wrong!


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## COWCHICK77

I have a hair cinch that I got in a trade years ago. I have been told that horses either love them or hate them. I had one horse that I used it on, it never galled or bothered him.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Hmm. Glad to get some input on them. I think my horses would hate them. They hate mane hair mecate when I first introduce it. Thanks!!


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## COWCHICK77

That is kind of what I thought too.
That was the only time I ever used it so I can't say as to how well they work or if they even last. Last time I seen it, it was hanging up in the tack room at my folks. I see them for sale so somebody must use them on a regular basis? Like you, I like the mohair ones. They last and are easy to clean. Hubby's new saddle came with a fancy alpaca one made by that gal who lives in Lamoille...can't remember her name. Curious if there really is a difference.


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## Wanstrom Horses

In my experience, they isn't really a big difference is alpaca and mohair. But mohairs cheaper! Lol. Yeah I saw some horse hair ones at a saddle shop the other day, and I couldn't imagine riding any if my horses with one without having a rodeo. But someone must being using them. I saw on the CalClassics website, it said they were superior for most horses. So idk.


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## COWCHICK77

Superior for _most_ horses....hmmm, sounds like code for, if he don't like it he will buck your *** off. LOL


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## Wanstrom Horses

LOL. Yes I'm must agree! I'm just going to stick with mohair, no horse hair for me!


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## LisaG

The cotton ones have worked well for me, but I'm in a totally different climate. I'm pretty skeptical about the neoprene ones. I know some people like them, but they just seem like they wouldn't breathe.

I had a Weaver mohair roper cinch that I used on a very petite mare (the regular cinches were too long). I didn't have it very long before I discovered it was actually coming apart. There were two layers of strings, and it was the inner layer that was coming undone. I was completely unimpressed (although it was a good reminder to check equipment regularly!)

Here's the cinch I'm talking about > Weaver Mohair Roper Cinch with Jeremiah Watt Hardware

I'm sure other mohair cinches are better made, and it may have been a fluke with that brand. However, I've just went back to my tried and true plain cotton string cinches.


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## Wanstrom Horses

LisaG said:


> The cotton ones have worked well for me, but I'm in a totally different climate. I'm pretty skeptical about the neoprene ones. I know some people like them, but they just seem like they wouldn't breathe.
> 
> I had a Weaver mohair roper cinch that I used on a very petite mare (the regular cinches were too long). I didn't have it very long before I discovered it was actually coming apart. There were two layers of strings, and it was the inner layer that was coming undone. I was completely unimpressed (although it was a good reminder to check equipment regularly!)
> 
> Here's the cinch I'm talking about > Weaver Mohair Roper Cinch with Jeremiah Watt Hardware
> 
> I'm sure other mohair cinches are better made, and it may have been a fluke with that brand. However, I've just went back to my tried and true plain cotton string cinches.


I don't usually buy weaver products, or mustang brand. They always fall apart with hard use. I order my cinches from Buckaroo Business. Never had a problem with them coming apart. Never liked cotton, they always sored up my horses. But we ride in the extremes of weather. One day it will be 100 degrees and your cinch will be soaking wet with sweat and the next morning, it will be frozen stiff, lol.


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## LisaG

I ride in -15 C, but it never gets that hot here. +30 C (maybe 80 F? Not sure), so my cinches don't get too wet very often.

Thanks for the tip on Buckaroo Business. I'll check them out.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Yes, defiantly check them out! That have some nice gear.


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## Toymanator

Wanstrom Horses said:


> No picture  yeah I love mohair cinches. I'm just really curious about the horse hair ones. I dont really see them being good, but I may be wrong!


Are you referring to Main hair cinches? I have a main hair cinch that came with an old saddle that I purchased. I would buy more, but they generally cost more money and are similar in my opinion to mohair. I had it explained to me once that the old timers loved main hair cinches because horses hair sticks to the cinch, it fills in the spaces in the cinch and makes it more "grippy" for lack of a better term. This makes it so they hold on the horse better and you don't have to re-cinch as often. I don't know how much more than mo hair it holds, but I have heard that the main hair cinches last forever because they don't rot the same way that a mohair cinch can. They shed sweat and water differently, like I said, if I had the money to shell out on main hair I would probably buy them over mohair but they are very similar in characteristics. They both stretch a little and are forgiving for the horse, they breathe well, etc.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Toymanator said:


> Are you referring to Main hair cinches? I have a main hair cinch that came with an old saddle that I purchased. I would buy more, but they generally cost more money and are similar in my opinion to mohair. I had it explained to me once that the old timers loved main hair cinches because horses hair sticks to the cinch, it fills in the spaces in the cinch and makes it more "grippy" for lack of a better term. This makes it so they hold on the horse better and you don't have to re-cinch as often. I don't know how much more than mo hair it holds, but I have heard that the main hair cinches last forever because they don't rot the same way that a mohair cinch can. They shed sweat and water differently, like I said, if I had the money to shell out on main hair I would probably buy them over mohair but they are very similar in characteristics. They both stretch a little and are forgiving for the horse, they breathe well, etc.


Yes mane hair. I can understand them sticking to the horse and lasting longer. That makes a lot of sense. But just by the feel, I think they would be a galling sucker. Mohair and alpaca has been the only thing that hasn't just galled a horse to death for me. Maybe since they don't move, they wouldnt gall as bad?? Idk, but I'm sure my horses would have something to say about it for a little while if I switched to mane hair!


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## Toymanator

I don't ride with a very tight cinch very often, except when I am roping. Then I tighten it up a little bit. I have a few neoprene cinches on some of my saddles that work very well, I don't like them because of looks... But that isn't a matter of function. They are very easy to clean and I generally have them on my lower end saddles that I use to work colts. Someone told me the fibers of a mane hair cinch lay better against the horses hair, but I think that is more of a myth than anything.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Hmmm. Thanks for the input!! I have no idea about horse hair cinches, so I'm just sticking to my mohair  I like neoprene for arena work, but I've had some pretty bad sores from it if I use them everyday.


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## Wanstrom Horses

So, I've decided this threah is REALLY long! This is kind of an overview on Vaquero horsemanship. Since the weather is still bad here  I'm going to start doing different threads on every aspect of the program. So all that have followed, or want to follow, please keep an eye out for new threads!! Thank you!


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## Wanstrom Horses

I just started a new thread on snaffle horses to really go in depth for everyone interested. And off topic I know, but I just got offered to buy a friesian apply cross colt. Can't get over how stunning he would be in the bridle. What do you all think?


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## soenjer55

I think... pictures, lol. 
That sounds like it would be fun. What would you do with him? I don't think he'd make a great working ranch horse, lol, but I don't know why you want him or what you'd want him for, so I can't say much at all.
Even if you didn't want to keep him, it sounds like a fun project that would end well for you if you decided to sell him- if there's a market for pretty horses that are trained by idiots who think cranking their head up with a spade bit and making them do a freaky little jig dance makes them a bridle horse, the second you put a freisian/appy with professional, quality training as a REAL bridle horse on the market you'd have people knocking down your front door!


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## texasgal

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I just started a new thread on snaffle horses to really go in depth for everyone interested.QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Link to the new thread:
> 
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/old-school-horse-training-snaffle-horse-150484/


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## Wanstrom Horses

soenjer55 said:


> I think... pictures, lol.
> That sounds like it would be fun. What would you do with him? I don't think he'd make a great working ranch horse, lol, but I don't know why you want him or what you'd want him for, so I can't say much at all.
> Even if you didn't want to keep him, it sounds like a fun project that would end well for you if you decided to sell him- if there's a market for pretty horses that are trained by idiots who think cranking their head up with a spade bit and making them do a freaky little jig dance makes them a bridle horse, the second you put a freisian/appy with professional, quality training as a REAL bridle horse on the market you'd have people knocking down your front door!


He's big boned, I think he'd make a pretty fancy ranch horse. He's a threee year old and already 15.3 hands! He's started, has 15 rides. And would be super flashy at a ranch rodeo. I don't have any experience with Friesians, so if anybody could give me some info, that would be great!! Here he is.


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## texasgal

^^ Lord have mercy ....


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## Wanstrom Horses

texasgal said:


> ^^ Lord have mercy ....


Is that a good "Lord have mercy"? Like I said I don't know much about them!!


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## deserthorsewoman

Don't know about the Ranch horse part. Optically I don't see much Friesian....too bad...but if he inherited the character, you should be fine;-). They are super sweet, love people. Fact that the Dutch leave them stallions, and the dutch don't have the macho tradition, tells enough, I think. Very friendly, willing, trainable horses.


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## Wanstrom Horses

deserthorsewoman said:


> Don't know about the Ranch horse part. Optically I don't see much Friesian....too bad...but if he inherited the character, you should be fine;-). They are super sweet, love people. Fact that the Dutch leave them stallions, and the dutch don't have the macho tradition, tells enough, I think. Very friendly, willing, trainable horses.


Well I'm going to look at him next week!


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## deserthorsewoman

I so envy you;-)


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## Wanstrom Horses

The hubby is quite resentfull though!


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## soenjer55

I say DO IT. Lol, he's just gorgeous- he has the compact body of the appaloosa with the movement of the friesian... I think the hubby would learn to love him?


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## Wanstrom Horses

I know friesians are pretty expensive in my area. And so are crosses. But is $1000 a fair price? Im a baragainer so I'll probably offer less


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## deserthorsewoman

That's more than fair. From what I see, friesian crosses 5 grand and up....


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## texasgal

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Is that a good "Lord have mercy"? Like I said I don't know much about them!!


That's a "Lord have mercy" .. 'cause I'm an appy fan anyway ... *drool*


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## smrobs

He's certainly a looker! I like the fact that he's got big bones and feet...something that is sorely missing in many stock horses these days.

I think the biggest problem you'd have with him will be the lack of cow savvy and natural cutting ability...but it can be trained into him a bit.


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## QHriderKE

^^ Yeah, I like my horses with natural cow. Training it into them is just a pain in the butt.


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## Wanstrom Horses

I'm hoping the appy side will shine through and he will be a little cowy. The owner said he rode him a couple times down the the treasure valley stock yard and he did great. So I'm taking it with a grain of salt and hoping he will be! I find horses are a lot more aggressive when they have to compete with cattle for feed. All mine eat with cattle, so I'm hoping that might bring him into it a little more. I'm going to take a look at him Saturday and hopefully maybe make a purchase!


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## Army wife

Do you ever think of doing like a 30 day lease? That way if he's crazy, or just not up your alley...then you don't have to go through with the purchase? I got my first horse as a b-day present, so I never really purchased my own. But I always wonder why people don't do that kind of thing. He sure is pretty!!!


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## Jeffrey B

Have you started filming yet? and if so were do I find it. I am starting a 7 month old stud colt Halter Broke,Folowing us on the trail and leading him around the farm.
Thanks,


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## Wanstrom Horses

Jeffrey B said:


> Have you started filming yet? and if so were do I find it. I am starting a 7 month old stud colt Halter Broke,Folowing us on the trail and leading him around the farm.
> Thanks,


No, I'm so sorry, the weather is just killing us here. I will pm you and anyone interested the links when I get these videos up. Once again, I apologize!!


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## Jeffrey B

Wanstrom Horses said:


> No, I'm so sorry, the weather is just killing us here. I will pm you and anyone interested the links when I get these videos up. Once again, I apologize!!


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jeffrey B

You don't have to apologize I'm new up the site I just didn't want to miss it. the weather has been pretty bad here in east Tennessee also I understand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wanstrom Horses

Jeffrey B said:


> You don't have to apologize I'm new up the site I just didn't want to miss it. the weather has been pretty bad here in east Tennessee also I understand.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah it's pretty bad, I will let you know when they are up. In the meantime, there is a thread on snaffle horses you might check out.


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## Jeffrey B

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Yeah it's pretty bad, I will let you know when they are up. In the meantime, there is a thread on snaffle horses you might check out.


Cool thanks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wallee

Love this thread!!!


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## mirage790

OMG, my computer is out of commission for a few days and the thread grows like Jack's beanstalk! lol Took me 2 days to catch up, between everything else I had to catch up on in cyberspace. I forgot most of the comments that ran through my head as I was reading through it all.  

The video of the guy bumping w/ the bosal I didn't care for much. Does too much with his hands and IMHO the horse gets just learns to ignore it, but then he may have been over-doing it for the purpose of demonstrating. 

I don't like a cinch made of anything man-made. I ride a rather loose cinch, but then with my old horse, I could ride without one...if I could just figure out how to get on that way. lol

The Appy/Frisian cross looks like a big Appy to me. My son's ex-mother-in-law bred Frisians and I don't see any Frisian in him. Can't tell if he moves like one in the still pic because he's at the wrong place in the stride to see how high his action is. So, my best guess is that he probably takes after the Appy in temperament also then. That has been my experience with cross bred horses and dogs, they inherit the temperament along with the dominant looks. What a looker his is though! And BIG! I had always heard that the big horses are not as handy working cattle simply because of the extra length of leg and body, but never had any experience with ranch horses. I think it's the same reason Polo Ponies tend to be smaller, quicker changes of direction when needed. Of course, there is always the exception to the rule, but I'm speaking on the average here. I'd say the price is quite low, which makes me suspicious, but you know horses so I won't worry about you.  Heck, the ex-M-I-L's horses went for $25,000 - $35,000! But then her breeding stock were straight from the Netherlands and the foals went through the whole STAM thing that they do to get then registered. (Never quite got all that because I personally didn't care.) If nothing else, you could start him right, get him going right, and maybe sell him for a profit if he doesn't work out for you.

OK, I'll stop and breath now!


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## mirage790

Oh yeah, now have to go check out the snaffle bit thread!


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## jaydee

I stopped thinking bulky horses weren't agile after we got our little Irish Draft mare - you should see the speed she comes into the barn, negotiates all the obstacles, handbrake turns into her stable and comes to a dead halt - the first time she did it I expected to see a pile of debris and a big hole in the wall!!!


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## Wanstrom Horses

i do a lot more roping than cutting. and those little catty cuttin bred horses cant stand up to it. so i usually just work with what i have. id rather take a little more time. sorting cows than have a bunch of crippled horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QHriderKE

I wish I didn't have exams this week and next. This thread looks so interesting!!! Plus, another person here who ropes is awesomesauce.


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## Beatrice9

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I know friesians are pretty expensive in my area. And so are crosses. But is $1000 a fair price? Im a baragainer so I'll probably offer less


$1000 is a steal. I paid $800 for my dapple grey, and he was unbroke and a major butt head. I'm currently shopping for a new horse (for the husband and kids, and a friend for Blue), and I'm looking at $2500 no matter the training. :/ I love a horse of color with a large build, and one with good looks and broke is SO hard to find in FL! If he was near me, I'd beat you to the chase!


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## Beatrice9

There was a Friesian in my area with a $20,000.00 sale price. Even the crosses can sell in the $10,000+ range.


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## Army wife

I really hate to do this, but I've gotten ridiculously far behind in this thread! Do you cover the transition from snaffle to bosal in here?


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## Wanstrom Horses

Army wife said:


> I really hate to do this, but I've gotten ridiculously far behind in this thread! Do you cover the transition from snaffle to bosal in here?


I have, but I will gladly repost.


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## Army wife

You are so sweet  if you have a page reference, then i can go back and look for myself. Or i can stop being lazy and just look through this thread lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wanstrom Horses

[QUOTEa


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## Wanstrom Horses

Oops!! Not sure what happened there. But it's page 14. That's part of it, idk where the other part is, but I'll do another post.


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## Army wife

Thank you so much! Your awesome!


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## smrobs

Wanstrom Horses said:


> i do a lot more roping than cutting. and those little catty cuttin bred horses cant stand up to it. so i usually just work with what i have. id rather take a little more time. sorting cows than have a bunch of crippled horses.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL, I am the of the same mind as you are. My brother likes those cutting bred horses that will watch a cow from the first ride...but that isn't terribly important to me.

Heck, one of the best horses I've ever owned is my Mustang, and he doesn't have a lick of natural cow savvy but, he tries and he does do a decent job of holding what I need held. The best thing about him is he will pull anything I can put a rope on...or break stuff trying LOL.


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## Wanstrom Horses

smrobs said:


> LOL, I am the of the same mind as you are. My brother likes those cutting bred horses that will watch a cow from the first ride...but that isn't terribly important to me.
> 
> Heck, one of the best horses I've ever owned is my Mustang, and he doesn't have a lick of natural cow savvy but, he tries and he does do a decent job of holding what I need held. The best thing about him is he will pull anything I can put a rope on...or break stuff trying LOL.


I own one little bitty mare, she's a granddaughter of Doc's Hickory on the top and Colonel Freckles on the bottom. She's super cowy for sure, but she will not hold a shoe and is really really fine boned. I moved her to just doing Open team sortings and reinings cuz I'm afraid I'll hurt her! If I cant sort it with my big horses, I'll just rope it and drag it where I needs to go! Lol


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## cowgirl4753

Hey just wondering if you guys have heard of Pedro Torres? A friend of mine sent me a youtube link from him and its pretty neat! Id post a link but not sure how on my darn phone!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wanstrom Horses

cowgirl4753 said:


> Hey just wondering if you guys have heard of Pedro Torres? A friend of mine sent me a youtube link from him and its pretty neat! Id post a link but not sure how on my darn phone!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes! There was a video of him earlier in this thread. His working equitation horses are quiet impressive!


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## cowgirl4753

ahh musta missed that, sorry. Yes I was quite impressed, the one I watched was from the speed drill, and I couldnt get over how fluid him and his horse were!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wanstrom Horses

cowgirl4753 said:


> ahh musta missed that, sorry. Yes I was quite impressed, the one I watched was from the speed drill, and I couldnt get over how fluid him and his horse were!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes it's pretty impressive. And big horses too!


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## Wanstrom Horses

Good day everyone who subbed to this thread. The weather is finally starting to get better!! I wil try and post videos either today or tomorrow just to let everyone know. Thanks!


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## cowgirl4753

Whoo Hoo! ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Army wife

yay!! Can't wait to see you in action


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## JLane1

Have any of you seen any mules that went through the bridle horse process? Just curious if you can get the same results
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wanstrom Horses

JLane1 said:


> Have any of you seen any mules that went through the bridle horse process? Just curious if you can get the same results
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I had a big Belgian Molly mule I made a bridle mule. I have pictures of her somewhere I'll try and find them. And I have some good friends that religiously make bridle mules. My Molly slipped through a panel and broke her leg so sadly I don't have her anymore. The thing about mules is you have to be very careful not to make mistakes in their training process. If you pull on their mouth for just a second one day, they will never forget it. It takes twice as long to get something through a mules head, but theyll never forget something once it's learned. They are funny critters, and they take tons of patience.


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## JLane1

Ohh, thats suppprising and good to hear. That gives me hope for the mule im training right now. Shes come along way, im not sure how finished shell get, she was started late in life. Id love to have a bridle mule one day though
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ian McDonald

Q. In studying the bridle horse styles I've discovered a lot of inclination to have a large variety of bridle bits for different horses. With some, I'm looking at the collections that some cowboys have and thinking there's no way a person could afford to buy all these bridles on less than 20 years of wages! So my question is this. If you could only have one bridle bit, assuming that you had to ride a lot of different horses, what would it be and why?


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## windchaser22

Fascinated by it. Please message me when you have any videos.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Ian McDonald said:


> Q. In studying the bridle horse styles I've discovered a lot of inclination to have a large variety of bridle bits for different horses. With some, I'm looking at the collections that some cowboys have and thinking there's no way a person could afford to buy all these bridles on less than 20 years of wages! So my question is this. If you could only have one bridle bit, assuming that you had to ride a lot of different horses, what would it be and why?


Well, let's put it this was Ian. Im on a sacrifice basis. If I don't have it in my budget to buy a bit that I want, I eat cup of noodles instead of decent food, and then buy the bit!! Lol  If I could only have one, probably a Mona Lisa or a half breed bit. You can ride almost every horse in one of those. But I don't foresee that happening, we try and buy another bit every month on our measly wages


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## deserthorsewoman

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Yes it's pretty impressive. And big horses too!


I just stumbled over that and find it quite interesting:
Doma Vaquera


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## CanyonCowboy

deserthorsewoman said:


> I just stumbled over that and find it quite interesting:
> Doma Vaquera


Interesting and seems very similar to these techniques. My Spanish is not what it used to be, but here is a forum discussion over the differences between the Muserola and Hackamore.

Muserola o hackamore?

The article linked by DHW discusses that training starts in the Muserola and progresses to the vaquera curb bit.


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## deserthorsewoman

Muserola = Serreta. Serreta is a metal noseband with "teeth", which is, as the article states, to be covered with leather. Young horses are being first worked in hand, then longed and/or long reined, then ridden, later the bit comes into play, together with the serreta, then only the bit. I guess the early vaqueros/buckaroos didn't have metal and therefore braided a "serreta" out of rawhide.
I did check the Spanish bits, nothing even close to a spade bit. Might be interesting to see old Spanish bits.


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## deserthorsewoman

Ha, my mistake...serreta is the headstall with the muserola, the muserola is only the nosepiece.
here are several different types of each and some bits:
http://www.animoruitersport.no/serretacavesson-c-130_144.html?language=en


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## AnrewPL

deserthorsewoman said:


> Muserola = Serreta. Serreta is a metal noseband with "teeth", which is, as the article states, to be covered with leather. Young horses are being first worked in hand, then longed and/or long reined, then ridden, later the bit comes into play, together with the serreta, then only the bit. I guess the early vaqueros/buckaroos didn't have metal and therefore braided a "serreta" out of rawhide.
> I did check the Spanish bits, nothing even close to a spade bit. Might be interesting to see old Spanish bits.


 


Some of the Bedouin I lived with in Jordan use something like a spade bit. Imagine a spade bit, but about half the size, no cricket or braces and a little octagonal shaped spoon. I asked about it and some of the more knowledgeable horse guys said that it was a very old style of bit that not may people use any more. For the ones that know how to train a horse the old way, like my adopted father (though he is too old now) and one of his sons, they start off the horse in a hackamore like contraption made from an olive branch (I posted a picture of it early in this thread) then they move ether to a snaffle bit or some form of shanked bit. No two rein process though.


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## deserthorsewoman

Well, Spain is very much influenced by Arab culture, especially southern Spain, where the best horses are bred.......there's the connection.....


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## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Well, let's put it this was Ian. Im on a sacrifice basis. If I don't have it in my budget to buy a bit that I want, I eat cup of noodles instead of decent food, and then buy the bit!! Lol  If I could only have one, probably a Mona Lisa or a half breed bit. You can ride almost every horse in one of those. But I don't foresee that happening, we try and buy another bit every month on our measly wages


LOL! Us too! And we have just traded and tried to trade up to get the stuff we have.

I agree with the half breed if I had to choose just one. Pretty versatile in my opinion.


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## Wanstrom Horses

COWCHICK77 said:


> LOL! Us too! And we have just traded and tried to trade up to get the stuff we have.
> 
> I agree with the half breed if I had to choose just one. Pretty versatile in my opinion.


Yes they are, great bits. And I would have a big concho bridle bit if we were choosing cheek pieces too, love the looks of those. Yeah we are suckers for our tack. I bought a saddle once verses making the pickup payment, and I've made more money in the saddle than in the truck


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## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Yes they are, great bits. And I would have a big concho bridle bit if we were choosing cheek pieces too, love the looks of those. Yeah we are suckers for our tack. I bought a saddle once verses making the pickup payment, and I've made more money in the saddle than in the truck



LOL! GUILTY!

I want to have one made for hubby, he has always wanted one!


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## cobra

Just read the whole thread.....very interesting  subbing....


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## cowgirl4753

Hey Wanstrom, haven't seen or heard you around much lately hope everything is going ok. Hope to hear from you soon!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## equitate

Havent read all the thread, but grew up in a vaquero tradition (and show the top western eq horses in the country). It was progressive from hackamore (or muesero/no serrated serrate) to snaffle to spade. The horses were very much like working equitation horses, collected/ready to move and cut. They were upright/in front of the vertical rather than low necks and 'breaking at the poll' (the poll is the occipital lobe...so a horse does not flex there. They should lift and arc their neck and have a shortened base of support, not flex in the front part of their neck which straightens the hind legs). 

It is a methodical tradition, and by the time the horse is in a spade/curb they should be a whisper of neck rein (certainly NEVER two hands on it). NO excessive bending of the neck (from the withers to head) which is often shown by NH. That excessive bending (especially low and closed) puts great pain on the bars, and is a clumsy excuse for control only. It controls the mind through pain and merely poses the horse (in what has become an acceptable western pleasure outline with the neck lower than withers).

Interestingly enough this 'old school approach' is also one which follows from france's dressage heritage. Caveson to snaffle to full bridle (or curb alone). What it does take is knowledge about the figures ridden, preserving the gaits of the horse, and perfected equitation and timing (not the chair seats of many of the pix here). Mho.


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## COWCHICK77

equitate said:


> Havent read all the thread, but grew up in a vaquero tradition (and show the top western eq horses in the country). It was progressive from hackamore (or muesero/no serrated serrate) to snaffle to spade. The horses were very much like working equitation horses, collected/ready to move and cut. They were upright/in front of the vertical rather than low necks and 'breaking at the poll'(the poll is the occipital lobe...so a horse does not flex there. They should lift and arc their neck and have a shortened base of support, not flex in the front part of their neck which straightens the hind legs).
> 
> It is a methodical tradition, and by the time the horse is in a spade/curb they should be a whisper of neck rein (certainly NEVER two hands on it). NO excessive bending of the neck (from the withers to head) which is often shown by NH. That excessive bending (especially low and closed) puts great pain on the bars, and is a clumsy excuse for control only. It controls the mind through pain and merely poses the horse (in what has become an acceptable western pleasure outline with the neck lower than withers).
> 
> Interestingly enough this 'old school approach' is also one which follows from france's dressage heritage. Caveson to snaffle to full bridle (or curb alone). What it does take is knowledge about the figures ridden, preserving the gaits of the horse, and perfected equitation and timing (not the chair seats of many of the pix here). Mho.


I also think that because of the gaining popularity of this style of riding with it has came the "comeback" of the older style ranch horses and Spanish breeds as opposed to using showpen bred Quarter horses.
The conformation of the older style ranch horses fit what you describe for the body position needed and used much better than the QH that lope with their nose between their knees. With a horse that has a his head betweeen his legs there is more preparation involved for him to get to the next maneuver losing time and wasting energy to get the same job done as the horse who is upright and lifted.


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