# Bit Information (Snaffle and English-Type Bits)



## JustDressageIt

*English/Snaffle-Type Bit Information*

*Non-Port Mouthpieces*

*Mullen Mouth*








This bit is especially mild, as it has no breaking points within the mouth. It is great for a horse with a low palate that cannot accommodate excessive bulk within the mouth. Its disadvantage is that it can have a very unrefined signal to the horse, as there are no independent sides to work off of.

*Single Joint*








A fairly mild mouthpiece with very slight independent action. Usually horses with low or shallow palates are going to be irritated by this mouthpiece. When put in action, the mouthpiece breaks at the single joint, flexing upwards into the palate and downwards onto the horse’s lips. Some horses do not like this type of contact, as it is quite sharp and can pinch at the horse’s tongue.

*French Link*








A very mild bit that has two joints. Having two joints eliminates the crackerjack action on the tongue, eliminates upward flexion, and has a more “full mouth” feel to it. This type of bit works well on horses with all varieties of palate heights. A favourite of many horses.

*Berry/Oval/etc Mouth*








Same “full mouth” feel that so many horses like so much. The shape and size of the link influences the breakover point on the tongue; the shorter the link, the more “single joint feel” you are going to have. Some horses prefer a longer breakover point/link, some a shorter link. 

*Sprenger mouthpiece*








A very nice mild mouthpiece. This is a double joint bit, similar to an oval link, except that the center piece is rotated 45 degrees to the rest of the mouthpiece. Sprenger claims that this gives the bit a more anatomical bend to the bit so it sits nicer in the horse’s mouth. 

*Myler/ Billy Allen*








Very nice mild mouthpiece. The barrel serves two functions: an anatomical curve without allowing the bit to collapse inwards, and independent side action. This bit cannot have a crackerjack action, as it does not collapse. The independent side action is common to all double joint bits, bit seems to be more refined in this mouthpiece. Really a nice, nice mouthpiece. 

*Dr. Bristol*








Long, flat, angled double joint bit. A true Dr. Bristol will have the center link at a 45 degree angle to the rest of the mouthpiece. This angle and length of center piece makes the bit slightly more harsh than other double joint bits. It is designed for lots of tongue contact and pressure. I would recommend this only be used by an experienced rider. 

*Waterford*








The ultimate in “full mouth feel.” This bit collapses at every link so you get direct contact on the horse’s entire mouth. Since it has so many links, horses with a shallow palate shouldn’t have a problem carrying this bit. The bit collapses at each link, so the idea is that the horse cannot grab onto the bit and take it too much in its mouth, as the side will just collapse under pressure. A con to this bit is that some horses really dislike a “full mouth” feel.

*Icky Mouthpieces*
(mouthpieces I think should require a test in skill before being sold to anyone) 

*Slow Twist*








All the lovely advantages of a single joint (nutcracker action, palate protrusion) with the added bonus of a twist to the mouthpiece. The twist makes this bit more harsh, as the raised edges are rough on the horse’s lips. 

*Corkscrew*








Like the slow twist, but with more raised edges, this bit is quite harsh. The raised edges irritate and hurt the horse’s lips.

*Single Twisted Wire*








Even harsher than the slow twist, it uses pain to get the horse to “pay attention.” The single joint crackerjacks on the tongue, the twist irritates and hurts the lips. 

*“I will hunt you down and torture you if you use these” Mouthpieces*

*Chain*








This bit acts much like the Waterford in action, but the slim chain and roughness of the links makes it a harsh bit. Mostly seen in western events. 

*Double Twisted Offset Wire*








This bit is very very harsh. You have two different mouthpieces protruding up into the palate at once, they both crackerjack on the tongue in different places, then two wires irritate and hurt the horse’s lips to “make it listen.”

*Woodscrew*








Very very very harsh, it utilizes pain to get the horse to yield to the rider’s will. If you have ever gripped a screw tight with your hand, you can appreciate the pain; imagine that against your lips. 

*Bike Chain/ Mule bit*








Works off of nothing but pain for the horse. I had to mention this bit to make sure nobody mistakes it for a nice bit, ever.


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## JustDressageIt

*Cheek Pieces*

*Loose Ring*








This cheekpiece is a very mild, unobtrusive cheekpiece. The ring slides through the mouthpiece, so the horse cannot brace against the bit; the ring will just slide through. A disadvantage to this mouthpiece is that the horse’s lips can get caught while the ring is sliding, and pinch. Bit guards can help with this problem.

*Eggbutt*








The eggbutt uses light lateral pressure to help aid in rein aids; i.e. if you pull on the right rein, the left cheekpiece will come in contact with the horse’s cheek and lips. Still a very mild cheekpiece, it can reinforce a rider’s rein aid for the horse to follow a certain rein. There is no possibility of this cheekpiece pinching. A disadvantage is some people claim this mouthpiece can sit strangely in the horse’s mouth. 

*English Dee Ring*








A Dee ring bit is a very mild cheekpiece which uses lateral pressure to help reinforce a rider’s rein aids; i.e. if you pull on the right rein, the left cheekpiece will come in contact with the horse’s left cheek and lips. The dee can be quite helpful in teaching young or green horses to turn and listen to rein aids. The dee can also be helpful to encourage a horse to accept and seek rein contact. There is no chance of this cheekpiece pinching the lips. 

*Western Dee*








Acts like the English Dee Ring with slightly less contact surface on the cheeks. Still a nice bit for schooling the English horse with, just never use it in the English showring. 

*Full Cheek*








The ultimate in lateral pressure, (; i.e. if you pull on the right rein, the left cheekpiece will come in contact with the horse’s left cheek and lips) this mild cheekpice is great for starting young horses in. Used with bit keepers, this bit cannot be pulled through the mouth for its long “arms” and so is ideal to start the young horse that might pull on the bit in. Bit keepers are to keep the “arms” of the bit secure, and the mouthpiece of the bit rotated in the correct position. One disadvantage of this mouthpiece is that the arms can get caught if the horse tries to rub its head on something like a fence, its boots, etc.

*Fulmer*








A very nice bit that combines the loose ring and full cheek bit together in one harmonious piece. Unfortunately, this cheekpiece is fairly rare. 

*Pelham*








For experienced riders only. Uses curb chain action on the horse’s chin. The bridle attaches to the uppermost ring, the snaffle rein attaches to the big ring, the curb rein attaches to the little loosering. The idea with the Pelham is to ride on the snaffle rein 98% of the time, and just “tweak” the curb rein as needed for a little extra “listen to me” power communicated to the horse. A relatively mild bit when used correctly, by that I mean the rider should stay on the snaffle rein only most of the time; the curb rein should not be used in excess. Many riders misuse this bit and/or have a hard time figuring out 4 reins, which is why I labelled it “experienced riders only.”

*Kimberwicke*








For experienced riders only. Uses a curb chain on the horse’s chin. The bridle attaches to the small vertical-type ring at the top, then the reins attach to either of the slots. This bit is much less refined than a Pelham, when it comes to discussing English curb bits. The problem with the kimberwicke is that you have no refinement, no snaffle rein, therefore no relief from the curb action of the bit. This can be quite bothersome to horses that don’t need the curb action on a bit. I much prefer a Pelham. 

*Gag*








For experienced riders only, this cheekpiece can be severe. The cheekpiece can be a loose ring, eggbutt or dee, this bit has holes drilled vertically through the rings so a piece of leather or rope or string can be inserted. The idea behind a gag is when the rider pulls, the cheekpiece slides up the rope to exert more pressure on the lips of the horse and pull them backwards. It also exerts poll pressure. The one nice thing about this terminal gag is the piece of leather at the top of the image limits how far the bit can slide upwards. The bridle is attached to the top buckle, the rein attached to the ring at the end of the piece of leather at the bottom of the image. 

*Draw Gag*








For experienced riders only. Same function as the above gag, but has no termination ends. This bit can be pulled up to the horse’s eyeballs if need be. Usually used in conjunction with a harsh mouthpiece, as shown with a single twisted wire. The reins are attached to the loop below the cheekpiece. Mostly seen used by western riders. 

*Elevator*








For experienced riders only. Can have as little as 3 rings (bridle ring, and two rein rings) or as many as … 5? 10? The norm is 2 or 3 rein rings. This bit should be used with two sets of reins; one on the snaffle (biggest) ring, and the second rein on the “gag” action ring (smaller ring) but this has become an uncommon practice; most people just ride on the gag action ring now. This bit reacts much in the same way as a gag in the fact that it uses poll pressure.


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## Rebelappy

very very informative allie thanks it is very helpful info


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## Jillyann

Awesome thread! Good information!


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## AussieDaisyGirl

Awesome thread!!!!


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## kitten_Val

I think it's a great post. I'd want to add this link: 

::: Sustainable Dressage - Tack & Auxillary Equipment - The Bridle & the Bit :::

It actually shows the _animated _difference between the single and double jointed bits. I didn't quite get the difference and why single joint hits the roof of the mouth until I watched that one.


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## JustDressageIt

Good link KV!
Horse Sport ran an article a few months ago that showed that the single joint does protrude upwards, but the horse's tongue seems to depress downwards to alleviate any palate discomfort. It's trading one discomfort for another, though, and should be viewed as potential pain still; just different.
This is a recent study, so they might find out other things later on, too


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## Fire Eyes

_What a brilliant post. Even though I knew half the information I read it from start to finish. Brilliant JDI. 
_


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## JustDressageIt

kitten_Val said:


> ::: Sustainable Dressage - Tack & Auxillary Equipment - The Bridle & the Bit :::


I just wanted to add.. there is some valuable information here, but there is also quite a bit of personal dislike from the author in certain respects, so if you do read through this link, take stuff with a grain of salt.
Also, they mislabel a Fulmer bit as being a Full Cheek


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## kitten_Val

JustDressageIt said:


> I just wanted to add.. there is some valuable information here, but there is *also quite a bit of personal dislike from the author in certain respects*, so if you do read through this link, take stuff with a grain of salt.
> Also, they mislabel a Fulmer bit as being a Full Cheek


Yes, I agree with you on that completely. That's why I was talking about the animation only.


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## Saskia

I was just wondering what peoples opinion is of the Myler/Billy Allen bit versus the KK/Sprenger bit?

I've generally always used a KK/Sprenger but i've been looking into bits and have been thinking that perhaps a slightly finer bit may be better, i've heard some recommendations about the Myler but never heard anyone go into it.


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## kitten_Val

Saskia said:


> I was just wondering what peoples opinion is of the Myler/Billy Allen bit versus the KK/Sprenger bit?
> 
> I've generally always used a KK/Sprenger but i've been looking into bits and have been thinking that perhaps a slightly finer bit may be better, i've heard some recommendations about the Myler but never heard anyone go into it.


My horse was really confused with the Myler after I switched her from french link (up to the point she didn't look very happy). So... I ended up returning it to the store and getting Mikmar lorenzo (whatever the spelling is). 

I have KK oval mouth for my other horse (just changed recently from the french link), and it does look pretty fine to me.


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## savvylover112

Hey good thread JDI never new about the three ring bits that they were supposed to be used with double reins lots of info


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## o0hawaiigirl0o

Very helpful, informative topic.  All we need is one on Western bits and we're good to go!


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## JustDressageIt

o0hawaiigirl0o said:


> Very helpful, informative topic.  All we need is one on Western bits and we're good to go!


I'm working on one... trudging though it haha

This ended up being a 9 page word document... all my original work, NO information taken from any other source but my own noggin. The images are just google-searched.


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## drafts4ever

That really helped me narrow my selection of bits to try! now if I could only find a 6 inch bit in a tack store instead of only online I'll be good! I'm going between loose ring french link or loose ring anything with more than just one link. right now it looks like french link, it's been highly recommended so far by a few trainers and friends.


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## JustDressageIt

Oooh... yeah 6" might be hard. I suggest talking to your sales associate at the local places and seeing about ordering in perhaps?


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## TroubledTB

Is there any way I can get ahold of this article in PDF format and use it for educating some kids I volunteer riding instruction to? I love the info, and the fact that youve done all the work, it would make a great handout!


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## JustDressageIt

TroubledTB said:


> Is there any way I can get ahold of this article in PDF format and use it for educating some kids I volunteer riding instruction to? I love the info, and the fact that youve done all the work, it would make a great handout!


I'm flattered! PM me your email address and I will see what I can do


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## CJ82Sky

Just a note - the slow twist and corkscrew are not necessarily harsh - they are harsher than a plain snaffle but some horses prefer either of these bits to a dr. bristol depending on mouth conformation and tongue skin thickness. When you're talking details like this you're talking far beyond your average bitting, but I've also known horses to prefer a corkscrew to a slow twist and vice versa - all depending on the conformation of the mouth and individual horse.

My one TB jumper is an exception to a lot of bitting rules - hates a single jointed mouthpiece more than anything as he has a low soft palate and it hits the roof of his mouth and causes pain. He's very sensitive mouthed so even a three piece (of nearly any variety) he is resistant to. He prefers a mullen pelham - mullen b/c it's simple and pelham b/c he doesn't mind some leverage and this allows me to fine tune my cues to him (and in all reality the curb primarily acts as an e-brake since the mullen snaffle offers very little control OR communication due to it's simplicity).

I also have a horse that goes in a waterford full time - he's a rescue here that has been adopted and is boarded with us. He's another exception in that he had severe damage done to his tongue on the track and has massive scar tissue. In his case the waterford doesn't have the same jaw-breaker feel it can give other horses b/c his tongue's scar tissue is in the way. While normally a relatively severe bit, in his case it's one of the few bits he can actually FEEL and receive communication from, and he prefers it as otherwise he feels as if he doesn't hear/understand what the rider is saying.

These are just a few examples of horses I've seen over the years, and the uses for these bits. Every horse is an individual and a good rule of thumb to test a bit's harshness is to put it in the crook of your elbow, close your arm, and ask someone to "pull on the reins" which will in essence recreate the feel of the bit in the horses mouth - just imagine that it was much more sensitive tissue than the skin on your arm...

Always remember, what works for one horse may not work for another, although there are ALWAYS some bits imo that are to be avoided for riding at ANY cost such as the bike chain, regular chain, and double twisted offset wire.

ONCE I had a use for a double twisted wire and it was this: OTTB 4 years old, leaning heavily on the bit regardless of what you asked him to do. To test for nerve damage, put the twisted bit on him on the LONGE ONLY for a few minutes. Used side reins set too loose on purpose - not to encourage him down, only to act if he literally reached to the ground as he had a habit of leaning immensely. Well, as soon as he started to walk, and then same at the trot, he rooted (or so it appeared) and actually leaned ON the side reins and bit without being phased at all. We were pretty sure that he had nerve damage from whatever happened to him on the track, and called a chiro and a vet. Turns out he had a compressed vert in his neck that was reducing nerve sensations from that vert forward, which is why he would lean regardless of what you did, what bit, etc. He simply couldn't feel it. As for asking him to move forward and engage, he actually wouldn't respond to leg. We found out tragically a few months later that he had intestinal cancer (yes, at this point he was barely 5 years old) and literally lost feeling in his sides due to the tumors. It was the most bizarre case I've ever encountered but wanted to share as I found it interesting how in this case a bit I had only from confiscating it from a former client actually help start us on the track to diagnose the horse's multitude of medical issues.


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## MIEventer

Great post CJ8SKY!


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## upsidedown

Bahaha the one bit I'm actually curious about isn't on there. Where is boucher aka "b" ring snaffle?


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## savvylover112

over here that is known as a drop snaffle :S


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## upsidedown

Haha okay then, "Where is boucher aka "b" ring snaffle aka drop snaffle?"


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## JustDressageIt

CRUD I knew I forgot one!! Will add it tomorrow, okay?


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## myheartscaptivator

I have to disagree with you, chain mouth pieces are very soft. They form great to the horses mouth and are great for starting horses. Bits are only as strong as their users. I have seen plenty of people pull their horses faces off with plain snaffle bits.


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## JustDressageIt

Thank you for your opinion. I agree that a bit is only as harsh as the hands behind it, but I would never slap a chain bit on a horse with a relatively inexperienced rider; the possibility of something going wrong or hurting the horse is much greater with a chain mouthpiece than a solid mouthpiece. 
I'm sure in the right hands, a chain mouthpiece is an okay training tool... though my horse will never see one and I won't encourage people to purchase one for their horses either. If you so much as see-saw a little with your hands, that chain can bite pretty good.


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## upsidedown

:\ Still curious about boucher.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

First of all, it's Baucher. Second of all the guy who invented the bit also advocated for Rolkur. 
The top ring connects to the cheek piece and the bottom ring connects to the rein. A lot of people will try to tell you it's a leverage bit.. I disagree. It's exactly like using a dutch gag on the snaffle ring. Apparently if the horse lifts its head there is some magical leverage action, which I find doubtful. To me, it just seems like it would act almost like a full cheek.


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## upsidedown

Accourding to Dover its Boucher - Happy Mouth Boucher, and AlBaCon Boucher is what they sell, and thats the only way I even know it exists so I was just going on that. Googling Baucher I see that the mans name was spelt Baucher, you'd better tell Dover that! 

I had my doubts on it being a leverage bit as it is dressage legal so I was curious on what it actually _does_ do.
http://equestrian.doversaddlery.com...e&view=list&ids=620604718&dmi_offer_code=SITE


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## JustDressageIt

A Baucher is attached to the headstall. Though some argue it adds poll pressure, but I can't see how that happens. The idea with the boucher is that it's stable, much like a full cheek, so you have less "noise" and the bit sits at a certain angle in the horse's mouth. 
Hope that helps!


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## anrz

This is probably going to sound like an amazingly stupid question, but I have little to no knowledge on this kind of thing, so... what is a palate? I've been hearing this word a lot and have absolutely no idea as to what it is  x10


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## ~*~anebel~*~

The roof of the mouth. Ever gotten yourself there with a spoon or something?? IT HURTS!


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## anrz

haha thanks . That makes everything much clearer


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## RubaiyateBandit

This is really quite informative... I wonder, would it be OK with you if I print this out and take it into where I work, to use as a reference? Unfortunately, our training isn't very thorough, and once in awhile we find ourselves not sure about what to call a bit or how harsh it is. ^^;


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## JustDressageIt

RubaiyateBandit said:


> This is really quite informative... I wonder, would it be OK with you if I print this out and take it into where I work, to use as a reference? Unfortunately, our training isn't very thorough, and once in awhile we find ourselves not sure about what to call a bit or how harsh it is. ^^;


Absolutely! I'm glad it has helped!!


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## OneCrzyHorse

I can't believe there is still such a biased opinion on bits. A bit is only as harsh as the hands using it. I'll agree that there are inappropriate bits for each individual horse to use but to cancel a bit out completely as harsh and unnecessary is kind of silly. There's no possible way that anyone's ever encountered every type of horse with a different need in the world. I'm not trying to sound rude or smug but don't you think it's a little naive to just dismiss a bit because someone somewhere out there might misuse it? I mean a whip in someone's hands can be a very dangerous thing or a very good training tool... depending on who's using it. Same thing with a chain shank or really anything for that matter. I'm sorry I just catch a lot of flack for being from the Saddlebred industry originally. I taught lessons for a while... there were some horses that absolutely needed a mule bit for a student to have control... mind you I would never put that bit or any other bit in the hands of someone that I wasn't confident could correctly use it.

Sorry about the rant... I just have to put this out there!
Thanks


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## JustDressageIt

Thank you for your opinion, OCH, but I feel it is a good "guide" for those that simply don't know about bits. If someone doesn't KNOW how a bit works, do you really want them using a kimberwicke? Probably not. For those of you who know how to use a bit correctly, absolutely go for using the bit that works the best.
I'd much rather point a beginner to my list and say "read this" than "well... your horse is hard to turn so put a stronger bit in." 
Just for the record, I don't agree with mule bits one iota. If a horse 'needs' a mule bit, there is something seriously wrong with the horse's training.


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## OneCrzyHorse

The two horses in particular that I used a mule bit on were "hot" horses. We did not use the bit to haul on their mouths it is more of an attention getter, a very light squeeze of the fingers is all it takes. Had I put a "softer" bit in their mouths they simply would ignore it due to their personalities. There is nothing wrong with their training... it is more over a safety precaution for horse and rider.

I understand what your point is for writing this thread... I just hope that next time you write an "informative" piece you try to not impose so much of your opinion into it.


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## JustDressageIt

Anyone is welcome to take what they will from my writing and apply it to their own information stores and decide what is useful to them. I included my opinion as a way for others to gauge the bits if they don't know themselves. I have had a number of people PM me thanking me for this write-up, as it is simple and concise. A number of people have joined this board to ask me for permission to use the information elsewhere, and ended up staying and contributing to this community. 
If you don't agree with my information that is absolutely fine.
Just as an aside - please keep in mind that I wrote this piece as an english rider, where contact is a must. Any constant contact (I'm talking _real_ contact, not just no slack in the reins) with a mule bit or woodscrew bit, or really any of the "yucky" bits, in my opinion, is cruel. Put either of these in the crook of your elbow and apply a few pounds of pressure as if you were riding with contact. It probably hurts. 
Better yet, apply my "bucket" idea to these bits - fill a bucket with a couple to a few pounds worth of water. Attach a rope and the bit so you have to pick the bucket up with the bit. Anything with a non-smooth mouthpiece is going to hurt - and this is just a hand, which is used to being roughed up! What about when you apply that to a horse's sensitive lips, bars, and tongue? It wouldn't be pleasant, not at all. Then consider the type of joint you have - a single joint is going to pinch your hand, whereas a mouthpiece with multiple breaks will be much nicer to handle.
I hope that clears things up!


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## OneCrzyHorse

Saddleseat is an English riding discipline.... And I think with any bit contact should at some point be released... otherwise where is the horse's release of pressure coming from to tell them what they are doing is correct? I am not trying to be snippy just have a healthy debate. I'm not saying you can't have an opinion or your or my opinion is right or wrong... just trying to let everyone reading this know that there is more than one opinion. And my personal opinion is that a CAPABLE person should be able to judge what equipment they and their horse need to be effective and safe. My point is not to make you mad or prove anyone wrong I'm just trying to give those people who are using this site as an informative place the thought that they may want to do their own research and form their own opinions because sometimes there is a time and a place for these "tools" to be used by proper hands on a proper horse under proper supervision and they shouldn't be dismissed or thought of as cruel because their are some people that misuse them. I would never lay a cruel touch to a horse, my horses are the loves of my life... therefore I take precautionary measures to make sure that myself, my horses, my students, and those around us stay safe and in control. I really do agree with most of what is said in your article about how the bits actually work, but I just would like you to realize that it can be a little bit insulting and hurtful when people judge based upon the wicked rumors and the incorrect hands laid upon certain training and riding tools.
I hope that clears up my point of view and why I've been commenting! Thanks


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## wild_spot

> And I think with any bit contact should at some point be released... otherwise where is the horse's release of pressure coming from to tell them what they are doing is correct?


Do you just drop your reins when in the ring? You give minute releases *within* the contact to reward the horse. You don't drop the contact. Riding on contact is a constant game of give and take. Minute releases, minute half halts. It isn't a constand 'hold'.

In regards to the mule bit - if your students need them to control a hot horse then how do they have the finesse, timing and ability to use them properly without causing discomfot intentionally or unintentionally?

I find that those riders who have the finesse to use a harsh bit for the betterment of the horse are usually those who don't *need* to.


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## englishrider

great info.!!


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## JustDressageIt

wild_spot said:


> Do you just drop your reins when in the ring? You give minute releases *within* the contact to reward the horse. You don't drop the contact. Riding on contact is a constant game of give and take. Minute releases, minute half halts. It isn't a constand 'hold'.
> 
> In regards to the mule bit - if your students need them to control a hot horse then how do they have the finesse, timing and ability to use them properly without causing discomfot intentionally or unintentionally?
> 
> I find that those riders who have the finesse to use a harsh bit for the betterment of the horse are usually those who don't *need* to.


This is a great post, especially the underlined part. I really do still stand by my original statement.


EnglishRider, thank you


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## spence

fascinating post... only so much i can say since i don't ride english... 

and because of that i'm not too capable of giving decent responses, but a do disagree some on a couple of the bits you call "nasty." got one horse that does need a twisted bit, but like i say, that's western, not english.


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## JustDressageIt

Spence, I consider the disciplines a bit different (haha pun intended) as in English, we want our horses to seek and hold contact. In my personal opinion, a horse shouldn't have to seek contact (and I'm talking a couple pounds in each hand _constantly_) onto something that is going to hurt the lips. Because of that constant contact, I call these bits harsh. 
This is also the reason I will say that curb bits in a finished (or finishing) western horse is just fine and dandy -- since you aren't keeping constant contact, the horse gets relief from the curb.


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## Nature2horses

Awesome thread! Some bits are just nasty. Can anyone tell me what the chain does and what the softest bit is?


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## Beau Baby

i just found out a rider at my stable has a corkscrew bit for her horse. not sure which person or which horse, saw the bridle hanging out of locker, but I can't imagine using that bit. i've been at my barn for 2 years and I work there. i really don't believe any of the horses need that harsh a bit. he seems like it'd hurt.


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## tealamutt

I really appreciate this thread as I know very very little about bits. I agree that harsh bits are for soft hands. My guy goes in a loose ring snaffle (as I am just beginning to really learn to ride), but just tonight I tried him in a D-ring with copper rollers in the mouth. At first I thought he was going to have a heart attack from hating it but then he started to soften and by the end of our ride, he was rounder than I have ever gotten him. I think he really likes it!


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

This is a great post...very informative! Just wondering, does anyone have any experience with a Dee Ring Broken Segunda? I just started using one on my horse who loves to grab the bit and hang on it...and the segunda is working very well for her! She's no longer hanging so I can ride with very light hands and she is now listening to the smallest aids and half halts so I can get her on her rear. 

Anyone else have any experiences...positive or negative...with this or another ported bit?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EventingIsLovee

All of this information was SO helpful. I was just about to post a new thread about what bit I should get my horse for a new dressage bridle, but I saw this and read everything. There were a lot of things I din't know in this, like the purpose of some of the harsh bits. Thats horrible why people would only use PAIN to make their horse listen! My only question now is should I get a French link D-ring or French link Eggbutt? My horse is very quiet and always attentive to me, and he always has his head on contact, but I like the look of a D-Ring better, and the two are very similar. Do you know what would work best for dressage work?


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## JustDressageIt

Both are legal, but eggbutts seem to be more prevalent in the showring. The only issue I have with eggbutt bits is that for *some* horses, they tend to hang funny from the bridle, reducing the effectiveness; this is due to the oblong-shape that the cheek has. Dee rings are more uniformly round, but aren't as "fashionable" in the dressage ring. The Dee will provide more lateral support through your rein aids, which is something to consider as well.
Best of luck, I'm glad I could help!!


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## EventingIsLovee

Thanks so muchh!


----------



## Cinnys Whinny

Ok, so I have a sort of...seemingly stupid questions. And um I know we are primarily covering the english bits here but does anybody know why some people use curb straps with their loose ring or d ring snaffles? I see a LOT of western people do this and um, it seems to me that a curb serves absolutely no purpose on a loos ring or D ring snaffle.


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## wild_spot

> does anybody know why some people use curb straps with their loose ring or d ring snaffles? I see a LOT of western people do this and um, it seems to me that a curb serves absolutely no purpose on a loos ring or D ring snaffle.


I do this myself. A curb strap/lip strap as we call them in AUS, is actually very usefull on a snaffle. It prevents the snaffle from pulling through the mouth if you have to direct rein. it is used a lot by people who work cattle as you often have to really haul a direct rein to keep up with the cow, and the lip strap prevents the bit from pulling through the mouth by evening out the pressure.


----------



## Cinnys Whinny

Thank you wild spot. I never really would have thought of this, I didn't know a bit could slip through like that.


----------



## Islandrea

This is ALL of the information I've been looking for. Thank you!


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## HorseSavvy

Thanks so much for posting this!


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## JustDressageIt

You're welcome  Glad to help.


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## Lonestar22

The bits you say are used in western events are the ones I have never heard of or seen. And i have ridden western all my life. But this was very helpfull. Are you still going to post a western bit guide?


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## JustDressageIt

I'm not as well-versed in western bits, I'm a snaffle gal, so I have to do a bit of research into the types from a few different sources so I'm not passing along bad information, but I will hopefully sit down and write a western bit article in the near(ish) future.


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## royal012

hi guys i have been looking for a bit for some time and i cant seem to find it and i dont know its name... can anyone help me? The bit seems to be some sort of elevator that has two rings within the big ring...


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## JustDressageIt

Can you find us a photo, royal?


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## wild_spot

Is it similar to this?


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## Santa

Do you mean one of these ?
Snaffle Bits > Loop Ring (Wilkie) Snaffles > Loop Ring (Wilkie) French Link Snaffle 
Another good source of information on English bits comes from www.thesaddleryshop.co.uk. It has descriptions along with a good selection of English bits.


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## wild_spot

^ Oh durr, I bet that's it, I didn't even think of that bit and we had it on one of our ponies, lol!


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## royal012

Thanks Santa!!! thats exactly the one! thanks to all of you for trying! hahaha, i have been searching for the name of the bit for months! my horse really has a low head problem but normal gags have too much pull for him and he really hates elevator bits... So really thank you guys a thousand times!


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## Bluezepher94

Awesome post, thank you.


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## africanstardust

The corkscrew bit = :shock:

Also, _yikes_, that last one looks like an instrument of torture:evil: I think if I saw someone using that one a horse (or anything that's, you know, alive) I'd be tempted to whip that person with a crop.


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## lopez

I actually ride my horse in a single link with the fulmer cheek piece : ) 

I found this post super informative, thank you!


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## trIplEcrOwngIrl

Thank you so much for this thread! What type of bit would you suggest for a horse who needs more training and resist contact? Seriously, like if you apply pressure she just leans into it! She is in a single jointed, sweetmouth loose ring but once we get her home I'd like to try something else to see if it works better. Help?


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## SissyGoBob

*western/english bit*

I have a question, probably a dum one but here goes. I run the barrels, poles...ect (I ride and train western) right now I am using a kimberwick on a colt I just broke. I would like to use a full cheek to help with his turning and i think it would be nicer than his kimberwick. He doesnt seem to like his kimberwick but then again what horse likes his bit when he is first broke. So, my question is: Is it weird and or not good to use an english bit on a "western horse" or to tune on a "western horse"?

Thank you for the post it helped sooooo much and I can't wait until the western bit post is up!!


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## Althena

I have a question about western bits. I am planing on switching from the single jointed "Full Check Snaffle" to a Sprenger or Myler English Dee for English. However, since all my horses are over two, I need a mild shanked bit as well. I have ALWAYS ridden in nice mild bits but now I am starting to show. If you have any info on a nice western style set up that I can legally show in, that would be great. Otherwise, it's ok and I will delve deeper.


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## AppyLuva

Thank you for making this thread. I've been having issues with bits when it comes to my horse and I think it may be due to the wrong kind of bit. Now I can see what my horse needs because of this thread.


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## SissyGoBob

Hmmmmm...... I wish there was Somebody out there who could put up a western bit section now......


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## JustDressageIt

trIplEcrOwngIrl said:


> Thank you so much for this thread! What type of bit would you suggest for a horse who needs more training and resist contact? Seriously, like if you apply pressure she just leans into it! She is in a single jointed, sweetmouth loose ring but once we get her home I'd like to try something else to see if it works better. Help?


Glad to help!! I would suggest perhaps a three-piece (french link, oval link, etc) loose ring, and a good trainer. The bit is only one part of the equation. If she's leaning, it might be a bit thing, but it's more likely a training thing too. Good luck!! 



SissyGoBob said:


> I have a question, probably a dum one but here goes. I run the barrels, poles...ect (I ride and train western) right now I am using a kimberwick on a colt I just broke. I would like to use a full cheek to help with his turning and i think it would be nicer than his kimberwick. He doesnt seem to like his kimberwick but then again what horse likes his bit when he is first broke. So, my question is: Is it weird and or not good to use an english bit on a "western horse" or to tune on a "western horse"?
> 
> Thank you for the post it helped sooooo much and I can't wait until the western bit post is up!!


As part of my original post, I really don't like Kimberwicke bits, and really truly they shouldn't be used on a newly broke horse. They aren't refined enough even for the most seasoned horse.. on a newly broke horse, they're very confusing. Every western horse should be started in a snaffle, which isn't technically an english bit, it's just... a type of bit... and they're trained in a snaffle until they're trained enough to move off neckrein, seat, and leg aids. I strongly suggest you take your horse back to square one and start mostly over with a snaffle. Betcha you'll see an improvement!



Althena said:


> I have a question about western bits. I am planing on switching from the single jointed "Full Check Snaffle" to a Sprenger or Myler English Dee for English. However, since all my horses are over two, I need a mild shanked bit as well. I have ALWAYS ridden in nice mild bits but now I am starting to show. If you have any info on a nice western style set up that I can legally show in, that would be great. Otherwise, it's ok and I will delve deeper.


Unless you're showing, you don't need a curb bit, and even then I believe they don't need to be in a curb until they're 5 or 6. Up until 5 or 6, they can show in snaffle bits, and I encourage that. 
Myler manufactures some fantastic western bits as well... but I'm really honestly not the one to talk to about western bits, not till I get more time to read up and research them. 



AppyLuva said:


> Thank you for making this thread. I've been having issues with bits when it comes to my horse and I think it may be due to the wrong kind of bit. Now I can see what my horse needs because of this thread.


Glad to have helped!



SissyGoBob said:


> Hmmmmm...... I wish there was Somebody out there who could put up a western bit section now......


Again, once I get the time and ... well, yeah.. once I get the time and drive, I will sit down and research and type. Contrary to popular belief (hehe) I'm not superwoman 


Okay, I answered all the questions and comments on the latest page... anyone who wants to is welcome to re-ask their question or PM me with it.... can't guarantee how often I'll be on the Forum, but I get an email whenever I get a PM and I make sure I check it.


----------



## MIEventer

> Hmmmmm...... I wish there was Somebody out there who could put up a western bit section now......


Why don't you do it then  You can spend the time to research the bits and come up with a great thread discussing Western Bits


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## faye

Good Post. I don't see anything on the all important double bridle though!

You've also missed the wilkie. The wilkie was designed for the LR/FR show ponies here in the UK by Peter wilkinson of Fylde saddlery. It gives more poll pressure then the hanging cheek, it also looks alot neater. It is not dressage legal.

There is also the cambridge mouth piece. This is a straight bar with a small port. It is good for ponies who have a low palete and a fleshy toungue/bars. it gives room for the tounge without hitting the roof of the mouth. It also gives a bit more feel in the hand then the mullen mouth, again it isnt legal.

Not many people remember that the dutch gag needs 2 reins (or that it can also be called the continental snaffle or a 3 ring snaffle as it is not a true gag).

There is a plethora of different types of pelham sides e.g the sam marsh pelham (which I hate), the globe pelham (i dont like this either) and the swales pelham (not good in anything but experianced hands)

Finaly, I've been riding and have owned horses in the UK for 20+ years and I have NEVER seen any of the twisted/corkscrew/wire bits in use or for sale. The only time I have seen them is on pub walls gathering dust.
BTW I'm fairly certain that under one of the animal welfare acts the chain bit is illegal in the UK.

Sorry but If you have to resort to one of the chain/twisted/corkscrew/wire then there is something seriously wrong with either your riding or your horses training.


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## wild_spot

> (or that it can also be called the continental snaffle or a 3 ring snaffle as it is not a true gag).


However it isn't a snaffle either so those names are incorrect.


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## smrobs

Allie, if you would like some help on a western bit section, let me know. I'm a long way from knowing it all but I do have a fair amount of experience with shanked bits.


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## JustDressageIt

smrobs said:


> Allie, if you would like some help on a western bit section, let me know. I'm a long way from knowing it all but I do have a fair amount of experience with shanked bits.


You read my mind!! I was actually going to PM you asking if you wouldn't mind collaborating with me


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## smrobs

Just because you got me itching to do it, I am currently working on a thread for that exact reason when I should be sleeping :lol:. Wow, there is a lot to sort through and explain :shock:.


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## faye

wild_spot, if you put it on the snaffle ring then it is a snaffle, just like the baucher or the wilkie. I ever said that the names correctly described them, just that overhere they are known as that.


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## smrobs

And for those interested in the western side of this whole thing.
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/bit-information-curb-western-type-bits-69588/

Now, it's 5:30 am and I need to go to bed :lol:.


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## SissyGoBob

MIEventer said:


> Why don't you do it then  You can spend the time to research the bits and come up with a great thread discussing Western Bits


I'm affraid I'l put something on there thats wrong. I would rather someone who has more experience and knowledge do it. Research isn't everything


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## Althena

Thank you guys for working on the western aspect. I am not an complete idiot but when it comes to what to use for shows, I am illiterate. A very big thank you to everyone that has worked through all the research.


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## tempest

So I've got question. There's a snaffle at my lesson barn where the bit itself is a single joint but the cheek piece is shaped like a "P". It's not a cheek piece that you have listed. At the barn we call it the "P" snaffle. Is there an actual name for this cheek piece? 

I don't currently have any pictures, if you need some I can get some.


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## faye

Tempest is that the one you mean?
It is called a half cheek snaffle and is actualy a driving bit


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## tempest

Yeah, that's the one. Can it be used for riding though?


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## faye

Yes it can be used for riding. I'm not sure why you would though, the full cheek snaffle would be much better for ridden purposes.


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## tempest

Thanks, I'm not planning on riding in it. I was just wondering.


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## Annie54

Not sure how to search this thread to see if somebody already has a question like this one.... 

I am using an o ring snaffle for trail ridding. Dolly does fine until we are on the way back and she wants to hurry up. I can keep her in a walk/trot but when she canters I have a very hard time getting her to slow down. I turn her around and go the other way. Well my question is should I use a different bit? I feel like no matter how much I tell her to slow down she doesnt listen like the bit isnt there. I was told a wonder bit???


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## JustDressageIt

Hi Annie54, thanks for your question. 
In your situation, a stronger bit will only frustrate your horse, and might cause a very unsafe situation. There are a lot of threads on this forum regarding slowing a horse down - it's all in training. You want your horse to listen to your seat and legs, and collect the energy with your reins. With a stronger bit, your horse might start tossing its head, or evading the bit completely, control of your horse's speed comes from the body; the head is just a hood ornament, more or less. I hope that helps! If I can think of some threads to help you, I'll link you to them.


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## JustDressageIt

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/i-need-bit-more-stopping-power-72880/

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/bit-help-horse-doesnt-like-turn-73269/


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## Annie54

Thanks... I have no idea what to do... everbody that ride in my town tell me to get a bit with a shank. I guess I could try circles with this bit. I can only ride on the weekends so it may take a while


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## Annie54

Thanks for the information!!!


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## JustDressageIt

A bit will only be a band-aid for the problem, and you'll find that you'll keep needing more and more severe bits. Using a bit to control a horse (especially for speed) is relying on pain to control the horse. Instead, you want to learn how to control the horse's energy with your own body, if that makes sense. Even riding once per week, if you're being consistent and have help to show you exactly what to do, you will see improvement.


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## JustDressageIt

Here is a very good thread started by a very well respected member of this forum. http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/will-your-horse-respond-your-bit-62456/


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## Annie54

Good news! I rode earlier for a little over an hour. I rode away from the barn toward the cotton field. I turned around before I was around the field and as soon as we are around the corner closest to the barn she starts to pick up speed so I turn her around and go away from the barn... I did this over and over only if she started to trot. I did some circles too. After about 45 minutes I got her to walk to the barn  I feel like I have a lot more control over her now! Over all I think she did great!


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## JustDressageIt

Fantastic!


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## candandy49

Another Dressage/English Bit worth mentioning is the Baucher. It is a legal Dressage Bit. After experimenting with four other bits with my mare she really excelled with the Baucher. This bit is a true snaffle in that there is no leverage/shanks. It has about a 1 to 1 1/2 inch solid extension on the rein rings that the cheeks of the bridle go into adding a small amount of leverage to the poll.


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## JustDressageIt

candandy49, good point, I should have posted about the Baucher on the OP, and I might ask a Mod to edit that information in. However, from what I understand, the Baucher does _not_ have any leverage; it doesn't have two fixed points to get leverage from. It is more like a full cheek in the sense that it's attached to the headstall, making the bit sit correctly in the mouth. 
Please take my information on Bauchers with a grain of salt though, as I am not as informed as I would like to be on the action of that particular bit.


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## candandy49

JustDressageIt, what I should have said is the Baucher has a fixed purchase on the bit. The purchase being the part of a bit that extends above the mouth piece like on a Western type curb bit or Pelham, i.e. With the Baucher there is slight poll pressure when the horse has bit contact or on the bit. 

I used the Baucher with my QH mare when I decided to try going in a Dressage saddle and snaffle bridle with her. As an 8 year old when we became each others she had always been ridden Western and with a tiedown. The first time I tried riding her without the tiedown she flung her head until I could see the tip of her nose.:shock: After trying 4 other snaffles on her I found the Baucher. It worked like a charm with her.


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## ladybugsgirl

This is just a great thread.


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## JustDressageIt

Thank you


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## faye

The poll pressure of the baucher is negligable hence why it is dressage legal as opposed to the wilkie or beval which apply similar poll pressure to the gag bits and thus are not dressage legal.


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## StormvaleQHStud

Hey JDI, possibly could you pop some info on driving bits in there too? I would like to get a PDF version of your list as well so will PM my email to you? I too teach lessons and have done so for years and completely agree that it would be an excellent handout!

Cheers, SQHS


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## wild_spot

Baucher has no leverage as the reins attach at the same level asn the mouthpiece and there is no curb chain - So nothing rotating the bit to make the purchase come into play. The arms above the bit only serve to keep the bit in a specific place in the mouth and keep it much stiller than other bits.


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## bubba13

Right. No leverage, no poll pressure, no gag, no rotation in the mouth.


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## JustDressageIt

Yes, much akin to attaching bit keepers to a full cheek - so the bit is held steady at the correct angle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt

SQHS, I am trying to figure out how to PDF a document on a PC - I did get your PM 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brookebum

This was so helpful! I had no Idea!! What you call an elevator, is sold in australia as a dutch gag. That is what my instructor told me to use. I had no idea it was suppoesed to have 2 reins! and good to know about the cheeck pices.


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## redrooster

Wonderful information! Surprisingly, I actually learned a lot


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## Thyme

Hey not sure if this was already ask or answered. . .lots of pages
But, what difference is made with different sized 'O' for a Loose ring snaffle?
Just wondering, I use one on my mare (english) that is petite, but I saw a western girl using one that was probably an inche bigger.


----------



## Horse Hippie

Thanks for posting this information. I haven't used a bit in years as I have been using a Dr. Cook's BB on my 2 horses that are broke. I currently have a 4 year old in training that I would like to show in 2012, so I have been researching my options for bitting purposes.

Thanks again!


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## JustRide

Thanks so much! Helped me out! :]


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## Day Mares

I really enjoyed this thread. I am riding my young mare in a full cheek snaffle but without a bit keeper, hadn't heard of them before reading this. I will defo check it out, thanks


----------



## ponyjocky

what kind of metal do you think this bit is made out of?

https://www.victorycanter.com/Oval-Link-Loose-Ring-Snaffle-p-21708.html


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## JustDressageIt

I'm glad this thread has helped as many people as it has!

Ponyjocky - I would guess stainless steel, but I have no idea. You would have to contact the retailer or manufacturer.


----------



## Day Mares

*Best bit/cheek piece for a racy mare?*

So the single-jointed full cheek snaffle bit I have been riding my new girl in is a loaner and the loan has just been called in, unfortunately :-( ... so I am wondering what I should replace it with given that she is a very willing (to go flatout in a straight line) 7 yo thoroughbred mare who has never had a rider on her back who wants her to slow it right down and listen. :? 

I want a mild bit (maybe frenchlink snaffle) and cheek piece (maybe D ring). Any thoughts? And is a bit keeper still useful with a D ring as well as the full cheek? 

Just wondering what the mildest, most effective combo would be. :wink: Her new job will be trail/beach horse, with company in the paddock but riding out alone. 

Great thread btw.


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## JustDressageIt

A D ring is a great bit to go to after a full cheek, and a double jointed mouth like a French link might be good for your horse. 
Bit keepers are for full cheek bits only, they keep the "arms" rotated correctly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bubba13

Always wondered why English people use keepers on full cheeks and Western people don't. Is it largely a safety thing, to keep the arms from snagging on something and creating an accident? Or do you not want the arms perpendicular to the mouth, because you don't like the pressure from lateral rein work in that spot?


----------



## JustDressageIt

Two reasons:
- to keep the bit steady and rotated correctly in the mouth
- safety, to help prevent the arms getting caught 
Some English people will freak out if they see a full cheek without the keepers - I'm not one of those people haha.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bubba13

What do you mean by "rotated correctly in the mouth?" I saw in the opening post that you mentioned the correct orientation of the mouthpiece, but it seems to me that tilting it back with a keeper would actually negatively affect the position of the joint. Of the full cheek snaffles I've seen (which, admittedly, is only a handful), the mouthpiece is always perpendicular to the cheeks, just like in an eggbutt or D-ring. You don't rotate those for everyday use....and if you rotate the full cheek using keepers, aren't you going to bring the joint down so that it breaks over the tongue rather than straight back? It seems that this would also influence the ability to do any sort of lateral reining, as, unless your horse is carrying a perfectly vertical headset, you'll be pulling across the joint rather than breaking it.... (this all makes sense in the picture in my head, but I'm afraid it's not coming out in words very clearly)

The safety thing I understand, so I always try to be hyper-aware when using my keeper-less full cheek.


----------



## Day Mares

*Piper's new bit *

So I ended up with a Single Jointed Fulmer :clap: and was so excited to see this reportedly illusive bit :lol: that I forgot to purchase the bit keeper doh  but I will the very next time OH happens to look away long enough. 

I''m not sure what difference the lipstrap will have on the way the bit sits in the mouth, maybe it will keep it still (?) and on correct angle, with the cheek arms straight up and down.

As the fulmer is a loose ring (with full cheeks) should I also use bit guards as recommended for loose rings? If yes, how do I get them on and where do they go exactly?

Once again, great thread and appreciate the advice, alot. :lol:


----------



## JustDressageIt

Great choice! No, you do not need bit guards; and I'm unsure what you are referring to about a lip strap? 
Glad you found a bit you like!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## smrobs

Allie, the lip strap is what they call the curb strap down in Aus.

Because the fulmer is a full cheek, you really don't even need one. The lip strap does nothing more than keep the bit from being pulled through the mouth during extreme circumstances and since you already have full cheeks, that is also what they are for.


----------



## Oakley Eastern Miss

What an interesting read, thank you for spending the time to post this all up, its really informative. Threads like these are what make this forum great. 
Its funny how depending on where you are in the world, its called something different- we call the elevator a bubble bit 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt

You are very welcome! Even for a short-ish article like the one in the OP, it still took hours to make lol!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Day Mares

*Pic of new bit*

Yep. A lip strap = curb strap which I think = bit keeper? Anyhow, it seems I don't need one with a fulmer 'cause it has full cheeks to stop the rings sliding through the mouth?

Here's a pic from this morning.


----------



## smrobs

Bit keepers are a whole different deal. They keep the bit from rotating in the horse's mouth by attaching the top cheek to the bridle like this.









I'm really unsure of their full purpose though because we seldom see full cheek snaffles in the western world and we certainly never see bit keepers :lol:.


----------



## Day Mares

ohhhhhhhhhh. I was off on the wrong track completely. Thanks for the pic - now I get it. Thanks. I'm not sure that we need the keepers then... a bit ugly imo. I prefer to keep tack, particularly the bridle, as simple as possible. While keeping the horse as comfortable as possible. If that makes sense.


----------



## bubba13

See, smrobs, post 122 and 124 I asked about the keepers, because besides the safety factor, I just see them doing more harm than good. I haven't gotten a satisfactory answer yet, but then, I'm hard to satisfy...

All this aggravation ain't satisfactionin' me....
A little more bite, a little less bark
A little less fight, a little more spark
So open up your heart and--

sorry


----------



## iridehorses

JustDressageIt said:


> Great choice! No, you do not need bit guards; and I'm unsure what you are referring to about a lip strap?


Actually many people think of it as a means of preventing the bit from being pulled through a horse's mouth but it's not. A lip strap is meant to prevent a horse from being able to lip the end of the shank - grabbing it so that it's ineffective and can be somewhat harmful.


----------



## Day Mares

Um... I don't think I have a shank?


----------



## iridehorses

Day Mares said:


> Um... I don't think I have a shank?


Not a shank per say but the full cheek works the same way - a horse can lip the ends.


----------



## Ashley at Rivermont

Great post! Thanks!


----------



## JustDressageIt

You're welcome Ashley!




bubba13 said:


> I haven't gotten a satisfactory answer yet, but then, I'm hard to satisfy...


Dunno what to say, Bubba, if the answers we've been taught are unsatisfactory to you... guess you'll have to come up with a brand new reason and report back to us


----------



## bubba13

Somebody hit it in another thread, actually...should be pretty recent.

Here we go: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/full-cheek-snaffle-94241/


----------



## Day Mares

*Once again, great thread*

Again with the useful discussion, thanks guys I just learnt even more about bit keepers from the abovementioned linked thread and am off to fashion a pair of keepers for Piper's single jointed fulmer bit. :lol:


----------



## caseymyhorserocks

Wow!!! Great post! I would have put the Waterford under for experienced riders- but thats just me opinion  Oh and at my riding stable, the only bits they used were curbs (western) and kimberwike (english)... And for COMPLETE beginners!!!!! Poor horses... I L-O-V-E my loose ring herm-springer bit! My horse loves it to. I think mine is this one- Herm Sprenger KK Shaped Loose Ring Bradoon Bit < Bradoon Bits < Horse Tack|Dover Saddlery . 
I got it free from a riding instructor!


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## eliduc

I don't know where the idea that a broken mouthed ringed snaffle has a nut cracker effect when it is used as it is designed to be used. The reins run in a horizontal line from the horses mouth to the rider's hands. This forms a ninety degree angle from the attachment of the bit rings to the bridal and to the hands. Any hinged effect, therefore, is also horizontal, the break in the bit pointing more toward the horses nose and not to the vertical or the roof of the horses mouth. The distance of the break is also restrained by the width of the horses mouth and the span between the hands. The bit was designed to work on the corners of the horses mouth. While the corners of the mouth on a green horse might become irritated from a broken mouth snaffle the bit does not normally cause damage to the bars. As the horse's face becomes more vertical the bit does have more contact with the tongue and bars but by this time the horse should have less resistance to the bit. Studies have shown that even moderate ports do not contact the roof of a horses mouth because of the space caused by the arch of the pallet. If they did every time there is the slightest rein pressure the bit shanks would act as a fulcrum on the port prying open the horse's mouth. As soon as any kind of shank is applied to a broken mouth snaffle the bit becomes a very severe leverage bit, even a Tom Thumb with short shanks. Some French link snaffle bits are not as humane as they are portrayed to be, either. The ones that have a link with a thin edge that sits vertically on the tongue, like the edge of a butter knife knife blade, can irritate the tongue. Imagine scraping that back and forth across the top of your horse's tongue. I do not understand why the Pelham is banned from dressage competition. The bit is condemned because of it's shank confirmation which has a mild ratio. Absolutely no consideration is given to the various types of mouthpieces available, some of which are very humane. Conversely, the Liverpool is the most universal of driving bits in the dressage competitions and driving generally. There is no limit on how long the shanks can be and a broken mouth snaffle mouthpiece is perfectly legal. This can be a very severe bit. It's no wonder so many horses go around behind the bit.


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## NevadaRides

Totally missed 
Pessoa Magic bit. One horse responds miraculously- the other detests it. 
What can you say?


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## ladybugsgirl

So I was told a bit that looks like this Lorina Loose Ring French Link Snaffle Bit, Lorina, Loose Ring Snaffles, Bits, For the Horse, £13.50, trot2.com is not a french link and that a french link is when the middle piece lies flat. I think that is wrong but the person insists that the person who told her knows alot about horses and tack and is never wrong. Someone please clarify


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## eliduc

I would call that a French link snaffle. The edge of the link on that bit sits on the tongue. It's more severe than a link that lays flat on the tongue.


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## ladybugsgirl

I have never heard of a french link being severe. I ride my horse in one and he doesn't have any problem with it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wild_spot

A french link has a flat piece in the middle that lays against the tongue - Very mild.

A Dr. Bristol looks very similar, but the flat piece in the middle is angled so the edge lays on the tongue - Can be quite a bit harsher.


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## Tnavas

Just dressage it - great information but will disagree with your description of the action of a single jointed snaffle - it does not dig into the roof of the mouth - it is impossible for it to do so unless the horse has it's head very high with nose pointing to the sky and the pull on the rein is downwards. The horse holds the bit in position, by the pressure of its mouth around the bit, the joint hangs downwards an doesn't rotate upwards when the rein is used. When the rein is used the action on the bit is to fold applying pressure to the lips and bars only. 

The full cheek snaffle is not normally used with keepers but the Fulmer is. I'm sad that you find it hard to find as it is an excellent bit to start a young horse in.

Double jointed mouthpieces increase pressure on the lips and bars because the fold starts closer to the side of the mouth. The Dr Bristol also works on the bars of the mouth in quite a degree, the jawbones are only a small distance apart and this angled plate sits right over the top of the bars.

I'd like to see you move the Waterford into the 'Icky' mouthpiece part! This bit is not a nice bit especially if the rider has unsteady hands, try running a row of beads accross the corners of your mouth to feel the pain it inflicts. It bumps over the bars and lips!

I personally would prefer to see a little person with a pelham on its pony than trying to stop in a snaffle. Correctly fitted with the chain through the snaffle bit ring and with roundings this bit can be very helpful for little people to be able to control their pony. 
Correct fit of chain









The bit you show as a Kimberwicke is an Uxeter and a Kimblewick (correct spelling of the town of origin) is the one below


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## Tnavas

tempest said:


> Yeah, that's the one. Can it be used for riding though?


It's a halfspoon snaffle (the ends looking like spoon handles) and is also used for riding. It's great if the horse/pony is inclined to open it's mouth and resist turning as the lower cheek prevents the bit sliding through and also applies soome pressure to the jaw to aid in turning. Also great for those that don't like the pressure against the side of the face/teeth.


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## Tnavas

smrobs said:


> Bit keepers are a whole different deal. They keep the bit from rotating in the horse's mouth by attaching the top cheek to the bridle like this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm really unsure of their full purpose though because we seldom see full cheek snaffles in the western world and we certainly never see bit keepers :lol:.


Totally agree with you here - the Full cheek is not meant to be used with keepers. With keepers it digs into the side of the face just infront of the molar teeth - pinching the cheeks between the cheek and teeth.

The Fulmer cheek is longer and tapered so that it doesn't press into the face. The tip is curved outwards to prevent it digging into the face and to stop the keeper from coming off.

The keepers also hold the mouthpiece very still and assist in taking pressure off the tongue and placing it directly on the lips. It's static nature is very encouraging for the young horse to learn to accept the bit. It is the bit of choice at the Spanish Riding School and is used from breaking to advanced work in hand.


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## Ransomed

love this~


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## smrobs

Tnavas said:


> Just dressage it - great information but will disagree with your description of the action of a single jointed snaffle - it does not dig into the roof of the mouth - it is impossible for it to do so unless the horse has it's head very high with nose pointing to the sky and the pull on the rein is downwards. The horse holds the bit in position, by the pressure of its mouth around the bit, the joint hangs downwards an doesn't rotate upwards when the rein is used. When the rein is used the action on the bit is to fold applying pressure to the lips and bars only.


I have to disagree due to simple physics. Once you begin to put pressure on the reins, the bit _will_ pivot in the mouth so that the apex of the joint will be directly opposite of the pressure being applied. So, on a horse that has been taught to give to the bit and break at the poll, a rider who pulls hard will cause the joint to stand up in the horse's mouth, pointing directly at the palate, so yes, it _is_ possible to stab the horse in the roof of the mouth with a single jointed snaffle bit. 

Those horses who fling their head up in the air and root their noses out do so because they have figured out that doing that is the only way to negate the function of the snaffle. Once their head reaches a certain angle, then the joint will be pointing downward in their mouth toward their front teeth. After that, the only pressure they are getting at all is on their lips and horses that have figured out the "magic spot" for a snaffle generally find that lip pressure rather easy to ignore.


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## Tnavas

smrobs - I really think you need to take another look at how the bit functions. When the rider uses the rein the action is up and back - it physically cannot turn the bit around in the mouth.


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## smrobs

:lol: I do know how the bit functions and I fully understand the physics of it. I've seen it happen and felt it happen so yes, it can, and _does_ happen.

When the pressure is up and back....and the horse puts his face down and in, that creates a perpendicular line of pressure from the reins and bit to the palate. It's all physics. Relatively simple physics at that.


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## Tnavas

All I can say is that your horses must do weird things with their bits as I've never yet seen a bit do that - mine all work in snaffles. 

I have done much study on this subject since the word was spread about the joint hitting the roof of the mouth and it is a physical impossibility.


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## smrobs

You can believe whatever you wish to believe .


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## eliduc

I know what Robs is saying. As the face becomes vertical then the hinge in the mouthpiece is facing more toward the pallet. However, unless the horse has a neck like a giraffe, the bit is still going to be below the level of the hands in which case the hands and reins are actually elevating the mouth piece which rotates the apex of the hinge slightly downward toward front teeth of the lower jaw. You also have to consider the width of the mouth in relation to the length of the mouth piece. The Horse's cheeks hold the rings apart so that the break of the hinge is really quite minimal. Tanavas is correct, even if there was vertical pressure toward the horse's feet because of the width of the horses jaw the hinge of the bit would never hit the pallet. The rings would have to be practically touching each other in order to elevate the hinge sufficiently to make contact with the pallet. Put the bit on your knee or even your arch pull back on the rings and see how much of a peak there is in the hinge. Hardly any. The bit is a breaking bit and is designed to work on the corners of the mouth in order to avoid damaging the bars of a green horse. A snaffle with shanks is a harsh leverage bit and not a true snaffle. You can buy a cheap, ($6) traditional broken mouth snaffle that works fine if it is fitted right. I used the same one for fifteen years and retrained a lot of problem horses with it. You never heard any of this "nutcracker" nonsense until the $100+ french link bits hit the market. The french link may be a fine bit but it would seem to me that as soon as you add a link the mouth piece becomes a chain. I will stick with the traditional bits I have used for decades. They have worked fine for me. A couple of other things, the more flexibility a mouth piece has the more it can arch over the tongue placing the solid parts closer to the bars. Add a link and the bit is now double hinged. If it is necessary to double a green horse around in an emergency and the bit slides through the mouth the flat french link can become a knife blade. Maybe not the best bit to start with.


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## Tnavas

eliduc! I love your post!! 

I too have no double link bits - have used one once with distastrous results - wondered why I had tried it in the first place! 

I own countless Fulmer snaffles - in all sizes, and eggbut and just recently a sweet iron, single joint eggbut for my Clydie mare - she likes it.

Today I put my 5yr old into a Fulmer with keepers and his rider reported that he went the kindest ever - she broke him in a plain loose ring, single joint and he was being a bit mouthy, toady he had his mouth shut and didn't once argue. 

I've been using a single jointed bit for over 40 years.


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## eliduc

*Snaffle bit*

Me too. Geeze, you must be almost as old as dirt.... Er. I mean old as me. I thought my last horse was going to be my last. He died with his head in my lap right before Thanksgiving. He was a Fjord/Qtr cross. He was four years old and just coming into his own, a wonderful, steady driving horse. So anyway, here I am today at 71 years of age longing my new four year old unbroke Qtr. horse. He will soon be in a snaffle bit.


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## jumanji321

Is that the same horse you posted about in November?


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## Tnavas

eliduc said:


> Me too. Geeze, you must be almost as old as dirt.... Er. I mean old as me. I thought my last horse was going to be my last. He died with his head in my lap right before Thanksgiving. He was a Fjord/Qtr cross. He was four years old and just coming into his own, a wonderful, steady driving horse. So anyway, here I am today at 71 years of age longing my new four year old unbroke Qtr. horse. He will soon be in a snaffle bit.


So sorry to hear about your horse - it's awful to lose them so young. I've just turned 60 and am planning to get back on board on Friday - I have a lovely Clydesdale that will be with me for life. I remember when they first started selling the flash noseband and we never used saddle blankets. Currently trying to convert the young rider who will be competing the 5yr old this year. 
Good luck with your new youngster - make sure we get pictures


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## jumanji321

Tnavas said:


> Currently trying to convert the young rider who will be competing the 5yr old this year.
> Good luck with your new youngster - make sure we get pictures


 
What are you trying to convert her to? Sorry, I'm confused.


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## Tnavas

jumanji321 said:


> What are you trying to convert her to? Sorry, I'm confused.


Sorry - trying to convince her that she doesn't need a saddle blanket. The saddle fits well and the kindest thing against the skin is well conditioned leather. That it keeps his back cooler and allows air to flow through the channel. She says she'll be too embarresed to compete without one - makes me chuckle!:lol:


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## brookebum

Very very helpful!
My horse was ridden in a french link for some time, but after a while it became a bit of a struggle. He got really really strong and I had a hard time stopping him sometimes (he is 18hh which doesnt help) . He was really really heavy on my hands and dragged me forward a lot. I tried a thinner snaffle, which didnt help. I thought maybe a pelham would help for a little while but there wasnt one available to fit him, but I found a kimberwick. I have ridden him in it twice now, and he was really soft and light and on the bit on a loose rein. After reading this though, im not sure if it will work in the longterm, or if it will ruin his mouth or anything.,. I dont know much about bits and am so scared of ruining my horse!! Do you think I should stick with the kimberwick? I am really conscious of the fact that it is stronger than what he is used to, and so keep my hands still and dont fiddle with them and stuf...


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## eliduc

*Trampus*

Right. You know it's funny. Well, not funny ha ha. Gilly wasn't the perfect horse. He was an alpha male and a bully. We went round and round for three years. I want to have a personal relationship with my horses and I couldn't do it with him, he was so mouthy. He was a lot different the last year but I never did completely trust him enough to get really close to him the way I would have liked. Of course, the other side of him was that he was wonderfully bold. So, I get this new Qtr. horse and my daughter and her husband came over to see him and we are standing talking for about twenty minutes and all this horse wants to do is be part of the group. He stood there and loved on us the whole time. He is a very mellow fellow and it makes training so much easier. He has a very easy, flowing gait. I think he is going to be fun to work with. He isn't beautiful like Gilly and I thought his head was a little homely. His mane was rubbed off in places. Yesterday I just roached his mane. It's fine haired and will lay over nicely in a month or two. I trimmed about three inches of fur off his jaw line and found that his head is actually kind of cute. After two days he is transitioning between the trot and the walk, backing and pivoting on the fore on the longe. I will keep you posted. His name is Trampus. I'm going to have to be careful. My wife likes him a little too much.


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## eliduc

*bits and stopping.*

I am a stickler about putting a reflexive stop on my horse. Since I drive, when I tell him to stop I want him to stop and not move. I begin this on the longe line working in a medium circle. . I tell him "hut" nice short little command, take one step laterally in front of the shoulder to begin with and tug as hard as I have to on the line to stop him. If I have to sit down on it and pull his head toward me I do. It's not long before all I have to do is give the command and give a slight dip with my head toward the horse's shoulder and he puts on the brakes. After that it's just the voice command. For this I am using a web halter. The next sequence is to do the same thing with a snaffle in his mouth but the line is still attached to the halter. When he is going nice and easy and stopping I attach the line to the bit. By now he is stopping good an all gaits. Now I might put him in sliding side reins with a snaffle bit. I begin with the line still attached to the halter. Of course, I am working on other things at the same time. After he starts stopping good I attach the line to the ring of the bit. Step three is to put him in driving lines from the ground. I begin by positioning myself a little to the outside of his hip so he can see me. Right now I have the reins attached to the sides of the halter with no bridle. I don't want him to be distracted and messing around with the bit. After he knows what I want I will put him in an open bridle with the snaffle. I still want him to be able to see my body cues.I drive him in a medium circle both ways. When I stop him I give the command, dip and shorten the reins, relasing as soon as he stops. Little by little I will drive him from behind on the rail. Step four is stopping under saddle. At the walk or trot I sit down in the saddle and push the horse into the bit a little with my seat. Then I yell "Whoa you SOB...." Not really. I was getting bored. Where was I? Oh yeah, I sit down and push him forward a little, raise the reins a couple of inches and hold with the reins at the same time as I give the voice command. As soon as he stops I lower the reins and release the rein pressure. it's not long before all I have to do is sit down a little and raise the reins an inch and my horse pulls up and stops. Most often the bit isn't the problem and a stronger bit isn't the cure. Going back and teaching the horse to stop is.


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## VT Trail Trotters

Love this thread, answered all my bit questions! AND it has pictures!!


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## mycocopony8

i'm 15 years old and I own a 14.2, 11 year old quarter pony mare. My pony,Coco, has a strong head and is on the faster side. I've been using a kimberwick on her for a while and she loves it but kimberwicks are illegal in hunter shows. So i'm looking for a llegal bit for my pony that will control,slow-down,soften,etc. Any llegal bit suggestions???

P.S.: Please don't suggest or tell me to try super mild snaffles like plain jointed,rubber,etc. Yes, I've tried lessons and excercises to help control my pony from running through my hands but with a easy bit it just dosnt work without me half haulting every second.

PLEASE help me with reccomendations!!! Thank you! 

Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/bit-recommendations-please-help-115570/#ixzz1oSNHtTMB


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## Tnavas

I believe you are allowed a pelham, not sure wether you have to use two reins or can use a rounding and one rein. 

The pelham wil work very similar to your Kimblewick.


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## karebear444

Very informative, thank you


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## CQTAN

thank you for such a great thread - my boy is fresh ott and although i have chosen an egg butt snaffle with single joint- the only thing that i find with it is that he tends to chomp when i first put it in his mouth but after about 5 mins he settles. He is very responsive on it (from the ground) and it does seem to make things easier for him to understand - simple straighjt forward thread thank you


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## Black Beauty 94

Thanks for the info!


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## macandme

Thanks I was looking for some extra information and now I have it thanks again JDI!!


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## Roll The Dice

hi this is my first post so forgive me if i am in the wrong place, i would like some help regarding a bit i have bought. It is an ozbits Campdraft bit and i have bought it because the actual bit is the same as the bit i have always used but it has side pieces to stop it going thru the horses mouth.I didnt want to go to a tom thumb and i did like the look of this one, but now i have it i am a little confused as to how to attach it to the bridle i dont want to put it upside down and after considering a few options on where i think the cheek pieces and the reins go i wondered if someone could offer advice. Thankyou


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## caseymyhorserocks

I would HIGHLY recommend the "The Ultimate Book of Horse Bits" by Emily Esterson, great material, even for the experienced trainers..


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## caseymyhorserocks

Bike chain bit is still sold.. And available.. 
Half Cheek Horse Bit


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## AnitaAnne

This may have been answered already, but i couldn't find it...does anyone know the reasoning behind some western riders putting a curb strap on a snaffle bit?


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## katbalu

AnitaAnne said:


> This may have been answered already, but i couldn't find it...does anyone know the reasoning behind some western riders putting a curb strap on a snaffle bit?


I would assume the only reason to put a curb on a snaffle is to keep it from coming through the mouth
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AnitaAnne

katbalu said:


> I would assume the only reason to put a curb on a snaffle is to keep it from coming through the mouth
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I didn't think of that...I wondered if was some sort of transition-to-curb theory...I never had a snaffle come thru the mouth...


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## Tnavas

Technically it should not be called a curb strap but a chin strap. It has no action on the bit bar preventing it from sliding through the horses mouth.

A curb strap acts as a fulcrum to allow the pressure of the bit in the mouth to increase and poll pressure to be generated.


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## katbalu

Tnavas said:


> Technically it should not be called a curb strap but a chin strap. It has no action on the bit bar preventing it from sliding through the horses mouth.
> 
> A curb strap acts as a fulcrum to allow the pressure of the bit in the mouth to increase and poll pressure to be generated.


But does it have the same effect on a snaffle bit? I'm relatively sure it doesnt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AnitaAnne

Tnavas said:


> Technically it should not be called a curb strap but a chin strap. It has no action on the bit bar preventing it from sliding through the horses mouth.
> 
> A curb strap acts as a fulcrum to allow the pressure of the bit in the mouth to increase and poll pressure to be generated.


I totally agree - a curb strap is for curb bits - that is why I wondered why some western riders put them on a snaffle bit


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## Tnavas

katbalu said:


> But does it have the same effect on a snaffle bit? I'm relatively sure it doesnt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No - the chin strap is reletively loose whereas the curb strap lies snug in the chin groove.

Fitting of CURB Strap









Fitting of CHIN Strap


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## AnitaAnne

Tnavas said:


> No - the chin strap is reletively loose whereas the curb strap lies snug in the chin groove.
> 
> Fitting of CURB Strap
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fitting of CHIN Strap


Curb strap should have 2-3 fingers between the curb strap & horse's jaw. Chin strap is seen on a noseband such as a flash noseband. A chin strap goes in front of the bit, to keep the mouth closed tighter. 

Crown Jawband Flash Bridle | Dover Saddlery


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## AnitaAnne

OK - I found the answer from JulieGoodnight on this subject - thanks everyone.

There are many excellent questions that you pose and I applaud your efforts in trying to get things right for the safety of your riders and for the welfare of the horses you influence. First, let me address the use of the curb strap with the snaffle bit. You are right that the curb strap will only come into play on a leverage bit; on the snaffle (direct pressure bit) the curb strap will never engage. This does tends to break down along English and Western lines because English riders think it is absurd to have a curb strap on a snaffle because it seemingly serves no purpose on the snaffle, since there is no 'curbing' action. 

From the Western point of view, the snaffle is a tool that is only used on young, green horses; once the horses mature and are more 'finished' in its training you use a curb bit (which is better for one-handed riding).Those finished horses are referred to as 'bridle horses,' because they are well enough trained to ride one-handed in a full bridle, with very little pressure actually used on the bit. This is the end result in training the Western horses while some English horses will remain in the snaffle forever.

If your use of the snaffle is strictly for colts, you know that you'll be occasionally using a lot of pull to guide the horse in a certain direction and the curb strap is there to help hold the bit in the center of the horse's mouth. You should not need this advantage on a well trained horse, which is the perspective most English people have since they are not oriented toward colt-starting. 

However, a beginner rider may also take hold of a horse's mouth and put more pressure on the bit than is necessary, so the curb strap might help in that instance, too. Even though the horse is theoretically trained enough that it shouldn't require that much pull, the rider is not discriminating enough to give subtle cues. So the purpose of the curb strap on the snaffle is to help balance the bit in the horse's mouth, regardless of why you need that balance. You shouldn't use a curb chain for this purpose; it just adds unnecessary weight and noise; the chain (as opposed to the strap) does not increase the pressure on the chin with the snaffle as it does in the curb bit. If your purpose is just to keep the bit centered, you should either use a leather curb strap or just a cord to connect the two rings of the bit.

You are totally correct that a snaffle, in many instances, is a safer bit than a curb and if someone is having a training issue with a horse, going to a harsher bit is rarely the solution and will usually make things worse. I spend a lot more time trying to get riders to go to a milder bit than the other way around. For more information on this, please visit the 'library' section of my website, www.JulieGoodnight.com.
Whether the horse or the rider is lacking in training (sadly it is often both), if you use a curb strap on the snaffle, it should be attached to the rings of the bit above the reins, like on any bit for any purpose. Remember its only purpose is to align the bit in the horse's mouth, so its adjustment should be with no tension between the rings of the bit, but it should come into play if one side of the bit is pulled out of normal position. The adjustment is without too much tension, but without too much slack.

Ironically, most people use the equipment they use because that's what everyone else uses; they have no idea what they are doing, let alone why. It is important for us as instructors to know why and to question why they are doing things. It is also important for us to be able to answer students when they ask why they should do something we told them to do. I hope this helps you realize that you were on the right track and asking the right questions.


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## Tnavas

AnitaAnne said:


> Curb strap should have 2-3 fingers between the curb strap & horse's jaw. Chin strap is seen on a noseband such as a flash noseband. A chin strap goes in front of the bit, to keep the mouth closed tighter.
> 
> Crown Jawband Flash Bridle | Dover Saddlery


What you have shown is a flash strap - the strap that goes around the horses face below the bit.

This is what turns the cavesson noseband into a flash noseband.

A chin strap goes in the chin area!!


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## AnitaAnne

Tnavas said:


> What you have shown is a flash strap - the strap that goes around the horses face below the bit.
> 
> This is what turns the cavesson noseband into a flash noseband.
> 
> A chin strap goes in the chin area!!


Yes, the flash attachment buckles around the chin, thus a chin strap...

Did you read what Julie Goodnight wrote above? 

If you would prefer the link I can provide that instead - I will need to relocate it, but would be happy to help you see it. Please note in there that she, a professional, refers to the strap as a curb strap. I think your use of "curb strap" and "chin strap" is describing the very same object. 

However, that being said, I was just curious about why western riders use one, and that has been answered by the info I posted above. 

If you want to continue to call them two different things, that is of course your business, and I don't care one way or the other. You appear to be becoming agitated about the subject, where for me it was only idle curiosity.


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## AnitaAnne

FYI - a "cavesson" and "noseband" mean the same thing 

you can have a plain noseband, rolled noseband, crank noseband, figure 8 noseband, flash noseband, dropped noseband, etc. All also called cavesson.

figure 8 & flash have a chin strap in addition to the jaw strap. 

I do not understand why the western rider just doesn't use a noseband, but again, only idle curiosity!

link to info on western snaffle with curb/chin strap:
SNAFFLE


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## Tnavas

AnitaAnne said:


> FYI - a "cavesson" and "noseband" mean the same thing


Don't know where you are getting your info from but 'Noseband' is the generic name for a variety of types of equipment that is worn with a bridle and goes around the face. Cavesson is a type

*Cavesson Noseband*









*Flash Noseband
*







*

Drop Noseband
*









*Grackle Noseband*









*Mexican Noseband* - identified by the rings at the ends of the headpiece









*Crank Noseband*









And finally a *Lunge Cavesson*


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## jumanji321

As someone who rides both western and english, I use the chin strap on a snaffle to prevent it from going through the mouth (yes it does that) and to keep it centered. One thing that would be nice is if people who ride and know the discipline would comment instead of making assumptions.


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## AnitaAnne

You know, I had wondered if I should have edited that post to say "the term noseband is generally used to mean the same thing as a cavesson, although you can purchase a nose band without the headstall attached" after I hit "submit" so quick, just in case you wanted to throw this back at me. I really had hoped you would learn and not argue the point...

But if you insist on the technical, a cavesson is not just the noseband, the term includes the strap that goes over the head, the headstall. So a cavesson is a headstall, separate from the bridle, with a noseband attached.

But no, the cavesson does not only come in a plain, flat style and _in general_ the terms are used to mean the same. There are several types of cavessons, as I listed above. Check back with Dover's you will see them used randomly.

But - since you ask, I am from America! What you show as a "grackle" is what we here call a figure 8. 

As you asked - here is a "definition" for my info:
"A noseband is the part of a horse's bridle that encircles the nose and jaw of the horse. InEnglish riding, where the noseband is separately attached to its own headstall (headpiece), it is often called a Cavesson. In other styles of riding, a simple noseband is sometimes attached directly to the same headstall as the bit."

Now the link for a "sourse" of the definition of the cavesson and it's use & some history:
Define Cavesson | Dictionary and Thesaurus

Please, I find it strange that you keep on with this subject, but I hope you are bringing this up because you are that interested. 

I also hope that you continue to learn about all the different type of equipment and their uses. Knowledge is always good


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## AnitaAnne

jumanji321 said:


> As someone who rides both western and english, I use the chin strap on a snaffle to prevent it from going through the mouth (yes it does that) and to keep it centered. One thing that would be nice is if people who ride and know the discipline would comment instead of making assumptions.


Thank you, that is exactly what Julie Goodnight said! I wish now I had just googled the information first instead of asking a simple question. I did not expect to get such hostility back. Thank you once again for your simple, concise answer.


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## katbalu

AnitaAnne said:


> Thank you, that is exactly what Julie Goodnight said! I wish now I had just googled the information first instead of asking a simple question. I did not expect to get such hostility back. Thank you once again for your simple, concise answer.


Well I'm glad you shared what you found.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs

Anita, don't get too riled up over what Tnavas says. She is one of those posters that is always right about everything and nobody better say any different *eyeroll*.

Anyway, the strap on a snaffle has several different names, depending on where you're from and what environment you were raised in. Just in my area, I've known them to be called curb straps, chin straps, bit hobbles, and since coming on here, I've also learned that they are called "lip straps" in Australia.

One reason why they are so much more common in western riding than they are in english riding is that western bridles don't have the various styles of noseband to act as a security measure on the bit/bridle. So, a curb strap is used, especially on loose-ring snaffles.

Since, in western riding, snaffles are primarily a bit used on young horses, it's not uncommon to have a horse resist and gape their mouth when you try to stop/turn them. Thankfully, I've never had it happen to be because I've always kept the strap on my snaffles, but I've seen the result of a young horse that gets the bit pulled through the side of their mouth. It's not pretty LOL.


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## Tnavas

smrobs said:


> Anita, don't get too riled up over what Tnavas says. She is one of those posters that is always right about everything and nobody better say any different *eyeroll*.


Not a very pleasent thing to say! 
I'm often right because of the level of training, experience and years in the business! If I'm wrong I'm generally the first to admit it. I enjoy learning.


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## smrobs

Riiiigghhtt :lol:.


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## Tnavas

AnitaAnne said:


> I really had hoped you would learn and not argue the point...


I find your post very rude and patronising. For a start I have been involved with horses for around 45 years, I am a BHS instructor, ABRS Grooms Dip, and a Pony Club B certificate level examiner. I trained in the UK in the yard owned by a master saddler, and so know my tack very thoroughly. I teach students for exams with a very high success rate.

A cavesson noseband is a plain basic noseband that just encircles the nose. Adjusted to sit two fingers below the projecting cheekbone and with two fingers between face and noseband. Generally used to 'finish off' the turnout. The width and placing can help improve appearance. Its true function is for use with a standing martingale. If you want to get picky then you can add the headpiece to the equation, 









The rest of the nosebands have specific purposes along with specific names.
EG: - The Flash (Hanovarian) was developed to replace the use of two nosebands, the Cavesson and the Drop in a time when standing martingales were used a lot and the rider wanted help keeping the horses mouth shut, and didn't want the uglyness of two nosebands and all the extra headpieces..

A 'figure eight' noseband is really just a description rather than the correct name for the noseband. The Grackle and Mexican are physically different and fitted differently too.

The Grackle is fitted lower than the Mexican, the centre cross is usually rivited while the straps move along the cheeks. There is also a strap that links top and bottom straps under the jaw.

The Mexican has rings where the cheeks and nose straps meet. The crossover point is usually free running to allow for adjustment. The rings are fitted above the projecting cheek bone while the Grackle is fitted just below the projecting cheekbone.

American terminology is sometimes simplified and occaisionally the spelling may be altered - as in Kimberwicke bit - the correct name is Kimblewick after the town in the UK where it was invented.

The link was interesting and a simple explanation. 
Noticed though that it refered to a Cavesson as a particular type and everywhere else used the term 'Noseband'.

When I post about equipment you can be generally assured that that my information is accurate.


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## smrobs

Yet you get all huffy when we lowly "western" riders don't use the terms _you_ deem correct to describe a piece of _our_ own equipment? I find that rather amusing.


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## Tnavas

smrobs said:


> Yet you get all huffy when we lowly "western" riders don't use the terms _you_ deem correct to describe a piece of _our_ own equipment? I find that rather amusing.


Please would you care to tell me where I got all huffy? We too use a chin strap on snaffles in English riding, we certainly don't describe them as curb straps when they are not on a curb bit!! No one identified whether the OP was discussing Western or English or am I supposed to be a mind reader!


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## AnitaAnne

smrobs said:


> Yet you get all huffy when we lowly "western" riders don't use the terms _you_ deem correct to describe a piece of _our_ own equipment? I find that rather amusing.


Bless your heart smrobs for coming to my defense! But I am not getting agitated, I only feel pity for those that can't see past their own nose! The world must be a friendless & dull place for them...

I want to thank you, once again, for your common sense You took the words I was thinking right out of my head. 

You know I have a long history of Dressage, and you are a Western girl, but still we seem to agree on most things...please remind me next time to ask you about all things western, ok? 

Also please remind me to never, never, respond to anyone that tells me that all Americans are confused about the English language? Because as we know, words have different meaning just in different parts of the country, much less the world...


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## Skyseternalangel

Okay guys... I don't know a thing about curb bits or curb straps. But I don't see anything wrong in Tnavas explaining the curb and the chin strap and their differences. It got slightly O.T when nosebands and cavessons came into play, which may be why the debate got so heated... but again, pieces of leather people!

But wow, why is everyone getting upset? It's just a piece of equipment. These are people's feelings you are tampering with.. and over what a piece of leather?

Chilllllllllllllllllllll down. It's hard to know the tone of a post when it is read from the internet. In person this convo may have gone differently because I am sure Tnavas did not mean to make smrobs grumpy or cause her to think she is "lowly"

Anita you asked a question, it was explained to you and then you researched it yourself. Good! Now you know  And now we can move on.

Hugs for everyone.. we aren't each other's enemies...!


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## Kayty

****MOD NOTE***: - Please keep this conversation civil and on track folks, personal attacks will not be tolerated. *


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## Allison Finch

Now, children....am I going to have to send everyone to their corners? :twisted::twisted:


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## Rascaholic

Skyseternalangel said:


> Hugs for everyone.. we aren't each other's enemies...!


 When discussing horses we quite frequently do become so. Thanks Sky for reminding me just because someone doesn't see it my way doesn't make them an enemy, or wrong!

I needed this :lol: as I was starting form my own very strong opinions and preparing to post them. Now I can go back to selecting the "right" bit for Rascal using this resource. 

Hugs back btw.


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## guinness

*Horse Acting Up lately*

Hi ...

My horse Guinness is acting up lately ...he is no longer responding to me riding him without a bit! Lastnight, I rode him in and Egg butt, and it seems he was still pulling very hard.

It seems that I am fighting him to do what I want constantly these days in the arena. I can never loosen up on the reins as he feels this is a single to act out.

Please help , I really need a good bit that he will respond to without my arms and hands being sore every other day when I ride.

I am going to start lunging him every other day as well so he can get use to voice commands which might help when I am up in the saddle.


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## faye

personaly i think you have a serious schooling issue not a bitting issue. you can keep chaning your bit but all that will get you is harsher and harsher bits. What do you do when you get to the breaking the horses jaw stage (yes there are bits that will do that if you pull hard on them)?

Haveyou had an instructor ride your horse?


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## guinness

Hi , 


Yes , actually an instructor rode my horse last night and really no reason to be so harsh with your response...

The instructor is the one who advised me to lunge him each time before I ride.

With your feedback you have given it just makes me not even want to ask or get help in these forums.

This site is for helpful hints and caring people.


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## Tnavas

Guinness - is there any possibility that your horse has pulled back recently?

What you are describing could be a horse that is not comfortable in the poll region.

A chiropractor will be able to fix that problem quite easily.

Often when a horse starts to behave out of character its because they've been up to mischief in the paddock, racing around and slipping or falling over or pulling back when tied up.

Another thing to consider is the magnesium levels in the grass he's eating. Rapid grass growth will result in low levels of Magnesium available to the horse. Again this is easily fixed by a tablespoon Epsomo salts (MAgnesium Sulphate) in the feed twice daily. Though it is best given in a small feed about 1hr before riding. Low levels of Magnesium can make the horse flighty, spooky and a short attention span.

Hope you are able to get things fixed - its frustrating and dissapointing when youaren't enjoying your riding horse.


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## guinness

Hi Tnavas, 

Funny, thing you mention pulling back when tied up. He has actually done that twice in the past month because something has spooked him.

He is let out every day in a huge pasture with two other horses. I do not think he has fallen or slipped but, than again I am not at the barn until around 7PM, each and every night during the week until. I spend most of my weekend mornings with him because by the time noon comes in TX , is way too hot for me to ride him!

The grass levels in the pasture are not growing at a very fast pace...so hopefully his magnesium levels are ok.

I used to have him on herbal calming meds approved by his vet. Maybe it is time for him to start taking them again!

Thanks so very much for your kind response and helpful hints.

It is just going to take patience and lots of work to get us both were we need to be ...so our rides can start being enjoyable!


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## Tnavas

Guiness - sounds like you have the answer to his naughty behaviour - the pulling back - do you have a chiropractor in your area? One or two tweaks and youo'll have your happy horse back.

I had a school horse years ago that was really naughty about pulling back - whenever he did it he'd be obnoxiouis until the chiro had been. Eventually chiro showed me what to do, after each treatment horse would be back to his normal helpful self.


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## AnitaAnne

guinness said:


> Hi ,
> 
> 
> Yes , actually an instructor rode my horse last night and really no reason to be so harsh with your response...
> 
> The instructor is the one who advised me to lunge him each time before I ride.
> 
> With your feedback you have given it just makes me not even want to ask or get help in these forums.
> 
> This site is for helpful hints and caring people.


It sounds to me like the horse just has a lot of extra energy that the instructor thinks you might be able to lunge off first. 

So, that is a good plan to start with, but I would also add that once you are riding him, pull him into circles with only one rein if he starts to pull your arms out of the socket. You can also do this from the ground to help him understand. 

When he is moving softly, reward him for going straight by releasing the rein a bit. 

Hopefully that will help, but also is he getting any grain? Because sweetfeed can make some horses hot if they don't burn up the energy.

Another thing to try is to give the horse a treat at first when he does what you want, it can help to get the message across that riding is not a tug-a-war!

Good luck!


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## faye

I wasnt harsh, believe me that was NOT harsh, just probably something you didnt want to hear.

going up through the harshness of bits just beccause the horse isnt listening = schooling issue.

Any instructor who advises a stronger bit rather than schooling is not someone I would want teaching me. Getting a horse lighter in the mouth takes time, effort and schooling.

Lunging before riding is Ok short term however:
1) most competition centres wont let you lunge on site 
2) all it does is get your horse fitter and fitter and then you end up having to lunge for longer and longer and your horse gets stronger and stronger. Believe me I lunge my pony before I get on him and it is a vicious circle.


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## SilentPromises

Oh my goodness, why do the bits at the end of the list even exist?! What kind of cruel person would ever use one of those? Breaks my heart even thinking about it...


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## TheBayArabian

Thanks for posting this thread; it has helped me learn more about the types of bits. Now I can go and study them more in depth with a little bit of knowledge beforehand.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

Ok maybe this should be another thread but...what are everyone's experiences with different metals? Like copper for example?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt

Oops!!


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## eliduc

*Developing a mouth*

I always longe my horses that are being schooled before riding them even if only for five minutes. For one thing, it tells me what kind of mood they are in. In preparation to building a mouth on a green horse I begin teaching basics in just a halter on the longe. Move forward. Stop. Transition between gaits on voice command. Back. If a horse cannot do these things on the ground then it is not ready to be ridden. I progress to a broken mouth snaffle. It doesn't really matter what type so long as the mouth piece is not severe or fat. Horses tend to lean on fat mouthpieces. Many people like the French link bits. I have never used one. I do the same things on the longe in the bridle that I did in halter. Lastly, I begin bitting up the horse to teach it to give to the pressure of the bit and travel on the longe in a rounded frame. I gradually shorten the reins as the horse becomes more willing to submit. The goal here is a soft mouth not a false head set. A German martingale will encourage submission without flexation behind the poll. One of the first things I work on mounted is to teach the horse to stretch it's nose to the ground. This is a stretching and relaxation exercise I learned many years ago from Bruce Davidson the Olympic event rider. This is accomplished by lowering your hands and alternately playing with the corners of your horses mouth while applying give and take light pressure. You don't want to ride normally in this frame but the exercise will encourage your horse to lower it's head and come into your hands without having to reef on it's mouth. It's also a good reward after asking something of your horse that is stressful at first and will calm it's mind. This week I brought an off the track, eight year old Standardbred pacer home. These horses are famous for traveling with a high head carriage and they are taught to lean into the bit when they race. After two riding sessions this horse is walking with his neck horizontal with his withers and is beginning to submit with his mouth. It is essential to know what you want from your horse, where you are going to go and how your are going to get there. People get into trouble with a horse when they do not have a road map and don't know how to drive. Develop a sequential training program where one step logically leads to the next step and you will soon be a horse whisperer. Put it down on paper in outline form. It's the difference between being a rank amateur and an accomplished rider/trainer.


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## faye

eliduc said:


> A German martingale will encourage submission without flexation behind the poll.


so gadgets is how you approach this rather than riding the horse forwards from behind



> This is accomplished by lowering your hands and alternately playing with the corners of your horses mouth while applying give and take light pressure.


otherwise known as seesawing on a horses mouth! not good, produces a horse that lowers its head but does not stretch accross its full top line.

Seesawing also means that you are concentrating on the horses head and not where you should be concentrating which is on the horses ****.


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## AnitaAnne

I am not really sure how lunging came up in this thread about bits, but I will put in my two cents in with the hope it will aid someone, especially if they find themselves spending all their time lunging their horse instead of enjoying riding.

I only lunge horses that are unstable or new before riding. Once a horse is riding well, I see no reason to lunge before mounting up. As Faye mentioned, lunging before riding can just make a horse fitter without treaching them self-control. 

I have found with some horses that like to test me or try to shorten my ride in some sort of violent way, I begin by lunging them hard & long before and AFTER I ride. I make sure my ride time is very low-key and the most enjoyable part of the session. 

I do this for a couple of weeks, decreasing the lunging time before the ride every day, while increasing the riding time in length and intensity, while still retaining the hard lunging after the ride. The horse learns to conserve energy and really doesn't want me to get off his/her back. 

once the horse is willing and cooperative under saddle, I decrease the time lunging after the ride too. 

My goal with the method is no lunging at all, and the horse sets the pace based on his/her behavior as to how soon the lunging ends. 

Done correctly, it works every time, and then I don't have to lunge them at all and can focus on riding & enjoying it.


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## eliduc

It seems there is one in every crowd. Faye. I haven't yet learned how to ride from behind while I am longing a horse. The purpose of bitting a horse up before riding it for the first time is to introduce it to pressure on it's mouth. Aside from this being a safety measure, when it is the horse that is applying the pressure through it's own resistance it will submit to it much quicker and with less resistance than when a rider is pushing a totally green horse onto the bit with their seat and hands which would be poor horsemanship to say the least. Playing with the corners of a horses mouth to encourage it to lower it's head is not see sawing. It can be accomplished with only the little fingers. I specifically stated that this is nothing but an exercise. Watch the Grand Prix jumping horses. At the end of a course many will lower their nose almost to the ground at the end of a course. They don't just naturally do this. It has been taught to them in order to calm them and to keep them from becoming wired. I haven't been here in a long time. Do you ever offer anything that is positive or do you just lurk and criticize those who make the effort?


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## Tnavas

eliduc said:


> It seems there is one in every crowd. Faye. I haven't yet learned how to ride from behind while I am longing a horse. The purpose of bitting a horse up before riding it for the first time is to introduce it to pressure on it's mouth. Aside from this being a safety measure, when it is the horse that is applying the pressure through it's own resistance it will submit to it much quicker and with less resistance than when a rider is pushing a totally green horse onto the bit with their seat and hands which would be poor horsemanship to say the least. Playing with the corners of a horses mouth to encourage it to lower it's head is not see sawing. It can be accomplished with only the little fingers. I specifically stated that this is nothing but an exercise. Watch the Grand Prix jumping horses. At the end of a course many will lower their nose almost to the ground at the end of a course. They don't just naturally do this. It has been taught to them in order to calm them and to keep them from becoming wired. I haven't been here in a long time. Do you ever offer anything that is positive or do you just lurk and criticize those who make the effort?


I too agree with FAYE - moving your hands down and fiddling with the bit so the horse lowers it's head is not correct in any form. As to the show jumpers many of their horses are incapable of going around a corner with a correct bend or active canter - SJ horses are often seen cantering 4 time as they are not sufficiently engaged or going forward.

If you want your horse to stretch - the first think he must do is 'Accept the contact of the bit' often best taught lunging in appropriate length side reins, the horse worked from behind into the contact - it goes and seeks the bit.

Correctly stretching you should be able to ease the reins or hands forward and keeping the rhythm as the horse stretches into the contact.

All this stems from a rider being able to keep a soft consistant contact on the horses mouth while maintaining forward, controlled impulsion.

Any instructor that wants you to bit up, or use gadgets is not worth working with. 

Regardless of what discipline you are aiming for go to a good dressage trainer to get taught the right way to school a horse on the flat.


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## eliduc

*xx*

As I stated before, twice I think, this technique is nothing more than a relaxation exercise which communicates to the horse for maybe 30 seconds, at the walk, _ok the pressure is off you can relax_. I also stated that I learned this from Bruce Davidson at a clinic. Davidson is a three day Oylmpic gold medalist and has traveled the world giving clinics. One day of the three day event is devoted to dressage so I think one could assume that Davidson is an accomplished dressage rider. So, you are saying that Bruce Davidson should go to a dressage instructor and "learn how to ride the correct way and that this technique that he teaches in his clinics is wrong? Here is a short bio on Davidson. "Bruce Davidson has been a member of the U.S. Equestrian Team since 1971. He was a member of two Olympic gold medal teams, 1976 and 1984, and earned two Olympic silver team medals in 1972 and 1996. In 1974, riding Irish Cap, Davidson was the first American to win the World Championships at Burghley in England. Due to his win the U.S. was awarded the privilege of hosting the 1978 World Championships. Bruce defended his title aboard Might Tango and became the only rider to ever win back-to-back at the Lexington Kentucky World Championships." 

Some minds are a steel safe such that useful information is locked out. While I admire the level of training that goes into an upper level dressage horse what practical purpose is there for piaffe and passage? Sure, it looks neat but it is basically a circus act with no practical application. There is no reason on God's green earth why a person training a horse to compete in a working cow horse class should pay a dressage instructor to teach them how to ride. Perhaps the beginning dressage rider would benefit from first taking lessons from a stock horse trainer in order to learn proper basics before attempting to learn dressage. If this statement causes your blood pressure to rise it is an indication of how offensive and audacious it is to participants of other equine disciplines to propose that dressage is the principle equine discipline that every rider should learn.


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## AnitaAnne

eliduc said:


> As I stated before, twice I think, this technique is nothing more than a relaxation exercise which communicates to the horse for maybe 30 seconds, at the walk, _ok the pressure is off you can relax_. I also stated that I learned this from Bruce Davidson at a clinic. Davidson is a three day Oylmpic gold medalist and has traveled the world giving clinics. One day of the three day event is devoted to dressage so I think one could assume that Davidson is an accomplished dressage rider. So, you are saying that Bruce Davidson should go to a dressage instructor and "learn how to ride the correct way and that this technique that he teaches in his clinics is wrong? Here is a short bio on Davidson. "Bruce Davidson has been a member of the U.S. Equestrian Team since 1971. He was a member of two Olympic gold medal teams, 1976 and 1984, and earned two Olympic silver team medals in 1972 and 1996. In 1974, riding Irish Cap, Davidson was the first American to win the World Championships at Burghley in England. Due to his win the U.S. was awarded the privilege of hosting the 1978 World Championships. Bruce defended his title aboard Might Tango and became the only rider to ever win back-to-back at the Lexington Kentucky World Championships."
> 
> Some minds are a steel safe such that useful information is locked out. While I admire the level of training that goes into an upper level dressage horse what practical purpose is there for piaffe and passage? Sure, it looks neat but it is basically a circus act with no practical application. There is no reason on God's green earth why a person training a horse to compete in a working cow horse class should pay a dressage instructor to teach them how to ride. Perhaps the beginning dressage rider would benefit from first taking lessons from a stock horse trainer in order to learn proper basics before attempting to learn dressage. If this statement causes your blood pressure to rise it is an indication of how offensive and audacious it is to participants of other equine disciplines to propose that dressage is the principle equine discipline that every rider should learn.


 I am a Dressage rider and I have to say I agree with 99% of your statement...may I add though that the purpose of the Dressage movements are to showcase the talents of the horse, and all the movements are ones that the horse does in nature, they are just refined & controlled with the aid of the rider. If you have ever seen a horse prancing and showing his stuff at liberty, then you have seen the piaffe & passage. As to the purpose for these movements, we would have to ask a horse! 

But yes, there are people in every walk of life who think their way is the only way, but please do not think all Dressage riders/trainers/etc, are that way! Many Dressage horses get sent to a cowboy to start them as 3 yr olds. It gives them a good base to build on. 

I also have great respect for Bruce, and even have a signed picture somewhere from a Rolex CCI. 

Anyone who believes there is only one "right way" to do anything is narrow-minded and foolish.


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## Tnavas

I too have known some very famous Olympic level riders, worked for one and one in particular who totally stuffed up my horses jumping by misreading him and the rider. These riders are not always good at teaching. 

I will stand by my statement that fiddling the horse down to stretch is incorrect - I am a classical dressage rider - taught by ex Spanish Riding school people and their students. A horse correctly trained will reach down WITHOUT the rider dropping his hands down or fiddling with the reins.


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## faye

My young horse has been ridden from behind from day 1. If you actualy know what you are doing then you can workj from the inside hind leg on the lunge and in long reins.

My young horse will happily lift his wither, stretch across his topline and go nice and long and low without seesawing on his mouth at all. Infact all you have to do is lengthen your reins.

Eventing dressage in the 80's was dire! it was concidered an inconciquential section of it that had to be done before you got to the fun part. It iwas of so little importance because the XC phase was the big decider.

I've had lessons from carl hester (olympic silver medalist and trainer of the gold medalist in dressage), he is dead set against fiddling with the horses mouth!


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## eliduc

Yes, Carl Hester is quite accomplished but I think you are comparing Apples to oranges in more ways than one. Hester is a classical dressage competitor. He and his horses compete in only one discipline, dressage. Davidson was a three day event rider who competed in three different disciplines. Therefore it was important to him that his horse did not become so jacked up from jumping the almost impossible cross country course that it could not compete well in the show jumping arena or the dressage court thus the relaxation exercise that he advocates and teaches. It's a simple exercise that instantly communicates to the horse through a cue, "We're finished. You can relax now. It's not a frame of riding, does not ask the horse to reach for the bit which would be in total opposition to the object of the exercise but gives the horse complete freedom from pressure. It is performed at the walk for a space of only twenty or so strides. It is a simple little exercise that I have found very effective in calming a horse's mind in transition between training exercises. It in no way interferes with anything else I have taught them. Pure and simple it is a time out. My definition of "see sawing" would be to pull the bit back and forth through the horses mouth which I would in no way advocate for any reason.


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## Beatrice9

I use a Myler Combination bit. So far, it's been the best bit I've ever used. The only downfall to it is that I have some difficulty on occasion getting it on him without having to undo an extra buckle. But that's no biggie considering all the benefits from it. It applies pressure on the nose/pole area before the metal in his mouth, which makes sense since when a horse is in training, he doesn't have a bit in his mouth it's all nose and pole pressure. However, if I'm just pleasure riding around the property I just jump on him bareback with my lead rope in hand, attached to his halter and ride around one rein style. The best bit is no bit, if your riding style allows. But I definitely recommend the Myler combination bit, doesn't pinch the tongue, no pain, nose pressure, it's a win win all around.


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## Tnavas

eliduc said:


> Yes, Carl Hester is quite accomplished but I think you are comparing Apples to oranges in more ways than one. Hester is a classical dressage competitor. He and his horses compete in only one discipline, dressage. Davidson was a three day event rider who competed in three different disciplines. Therefore it was important to him that his horse did not become so jacked up from jumping the almost impossible cross country course that it could not compete well in the show jumping arena or the dressage court thus the relaxation exercise that he advocates and teaches. It's a simple exercise that instantly communicates to the horse through a cue, "We're finished. You can relax now. It's not a frame of riding, does not ask the horse to reach for the bit which would be in total opposition to the object of the exercise but gives the horse complete freedom from pressure. It is performed at the walk for a space of only twenty or so strides. It is a simple little exercise that I have found very effective in calming a horse's mind in transition between training exercises. It in no way interferes with anything else I have taught them. Pure and simple it is a time out. My definition of "see sawing" would be to pull the bit back and forth through the horses mouth which I would in no way advocate for any reason.


This is what Free Walk on a Long Rein is all about - bit is not achieved by any see sawing on the mouth - Mine will all work long and low in all paces by mearly easing out the rein. 

Dressage is the key to success in many disciplines - if the horse is well schooled, supple and obedient it is far easier to ride. For example there is a fence that your horse is not too happy with, the unschooled horse will say "stuff you , I'm not jumping that" while the well schooled horse will say "I don't like this fence but I will jump it because I have been asked to"


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## eliduc

To Tnavas:It is a given that a supple and obedient horse is easier to ride. It might be more accurate to state that dressage is _a_ key to success. Many people would disagree that it is _the_ key to success. To E 87: The Mylar combination bit is a mechanical hackamore with the addition of any one of the Mylar mouth pieces. While many riders have the misconception that the m. hackamore is humane because there is nothing in the horse's mouth the opposite is true. In any but neutral rein position the Mylar bit has a narrow nose band that puts downward pressure behind the nose at the same time the curb exerts upward pressure on the lower jaw. The result is like pinching the horses jaws together in a pair of vice grips at the same time the shanks apply downward pressure on the poll and the mouthpiece applies pressure to the bars. If a broken mouth bar is used for the mouth piece then there is a nutcracker effect on the bars that is greatly increased by the shanks of the bit. A shanked snaffle is not a snaffle at all but a rather severe leverage bit. The traditional m. hackamores have metal tabs attached to the upper shanks that dig into boney structures of the face. At least one of the 3 Mylar combination bits has knots that replace the tabs. Mylar states that their first level C. bit is suitable for green, unresponsive horses while the third level bit is suited for fractious, unmanageable horses. In other words, horses that need to be trained or retrained in a broken mouth snaffle. That said, the severity of any bit is in the hands of the rider so whatever works best....


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## WhisperingHorsefeathers

Awesome THREAD!! 
I am new to English riding and this was really informative. I am currently training my "barrel horse" to become an "English horse" and I'm currently using a pelham on him. 
I think that it's a great bit for him. I try to use the snaffle most of the time, but I still have to use the shank part of the bit to get him to stop.


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## nvr2many

*Can you use a Kimberwick on a western bridle???*

Hi, wondering what the title says. I have a very large Trakehner, looks almost drafty. She takes a 6.5" bit. Tried a low port curb, she did great but need some lateral, so went to a d ring oval link snaffle, um, nope! Soooooooooo, after much research I am thinking kimberwick, a low port one, seems to have everything that I need. Can they be used western???


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## Tnavas

nvr2many said:


> Hi, wondering what the title says. I have a very large Trakehner, looks almost drafty. She takes a 6.5" bit. Tried a low port curb, she did great but need some lateral, so went to a d ring oval link snaffle, um, nope! Soooooooooo, after much research I am thinking kimberwick, a low port one, seems to have everything that I need. Can they be used western???


The Kimblewick uses a curb chain - are you wanting that effect?

If not you could try a CAmbridge mouth snaffle. I think it also comes in a hanging cheek style too.


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## nvr2many

Tnavas said:


> The Kimblewick uses a curb chain - are you wanting that effect?
> 
> If not you could try a CAmbridge mouth snaffle. I think it also comes in a hanging cheek style too.


Yes I am wanting the curb chain effect but also a tad of lateral if needed. With more stop than a snaffle can give me.


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## nvr2many

Looking at this one,










Will I look like a dork with this attached to my western headstall? lol.


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## Tnavas

Not a Western person but there is no lateral movement on the Kimblewick as it's held in place by the chain.


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## nvr2many

So, this is wrong then??? 
Posted on the draft tack web site, ......
UXETER LOW PORT KIMBERWICK BIT
Stainless Steel, comes with Curb Chain and hooks. Offers good stopping control. A nice bit for a tad harder to stop draft. *It also offers good lateral control of horse.* The low port mouth sits comfortably over the tongue with an even pressure applied to the jaw over the bars. This helps to keep the tongue under the bit.


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## Tnavas

What are you expecting by the term lateral - to me that means either the bit exerts pressure above the bit by means of an extension eg Fulmer, Full Cheek snaffle. 
Or that when you open the inside rein the ring of the bit moves outwards.

As its made the curb will precvent the ring moving outwards as its attached to the top of the bit preventing it from moving.


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## nvr2many

Maybe I should start a thread about which bit I should use based on what I want. I am really confused and cannot go and buy a ton of different bits!!! I liked the shanked curb I have but if I need to remind her while neck reining, to pull a little on the direct rein, curbs are not to be used direct reining. And when I use the D ring snaffle she blows through it as far as my halting cues and does not stay on a strait track like she does with the curb. I really am not sure what to try next.


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## nvr2many

Tnavas said:


> What are you expecting by the term lateral - to me that means either the bit exerts pressure above the bit by means of an extension eg Fulmer, Full Cheek snaffle.
> Or that when you open the inside rein the ring of the bit moves outwards.
> 
> As its made the curb will precvent the ring moving outwards as its attached to the top of the bit preventing it from moving.


I want to be able to direct rein her if needed but really need more halt than the snaffle I bought. Maybe a different snaffle??? Here is the one I have.










What do you think about this, (I am easy on the mouth)


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## nvr2many

Or maybe a twisted wire or slow twist?? Or maybe a waterford? I just need to remind her to not be heavy on my hands.


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## Tnavas

My thoughts would first go to a thinner mouthpiece, the waterford people say is great for those that take hold.

Are you able to borrow some bits to try?


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## nvr2many

No darn it. And she has a 6.5" mouth so it makes it hard to borrow and to find to purchase once I do decide what I want. I started a thread for help so maybe others will have suggestions also. Thank you!


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## eliduc

I have had very good results with my Bob Avila correction bit which is a western bit. It is a loose cheek curb but the bars of the mouth piece also swivel below the raised curb which effectively allows you to use a direct rein and it does work. It is really a transition bit designed to be used between a snaffle and a curb but I have not had any reason to put my horse in a straight curb after using this bit. There are several models of this bit. The one I have has moderate five inch lower shanks and also rein slots directly behind the mouth piece for only direct reining. The bit could be used with double reins. I have one on my driving bridle and one on one of my western bridles. The bit costs about $50. The only correction mouthpiece I could find on a Liverpool driving bit was made in England and cost $200. The bit really works well and my horse loves it. Of course, the snobs in my driving club look at the bit and sneer, "That's a western bit, its not legal." So what? Some of the English bits with straight, unbalanced shanks are really pieces of severe junk. In my opinion.


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## eliduc

Oops. A 6.5 inch mouth? You won't find an Avila bit that big. Mylar will custom make anything you want for a price. My last driving horse was half fjord and didn't have the most responsive mouth in the world which was why I went to the correction bit. It was just enough to make a difference.


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## nvr2many

eliduc said:


> Oops. A 6.5 inch mouth? You won't find an Avila bit that big. Mylar will custom make anything you want for a price. My last driving horse was half fjord and didn't have the most responsive mouth in the world which was why I went to the correction bit. It was just enough to make a difference.


Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh really, they will?? Well I better make sure its what I want, lol. Maybe I will email them and see. Thanks! 
I am going to switch back to my curb for now and either send back or sell the snaffle. That really is not going to work for us. Talk about no breaks!

Its not that she is not trained, maybe she is over trained, lol. Story is she was a dressage champ, (lady I got her from saw pictures) and the gal had to auction her off for unknown reasons, the lady I got her from bought her for a steal and actually saw the ad for her on dreamhorse.com for 3500 for a quick sale, anyway, she bred her twice and rode her western in a snaffle. I think she said she had her 5 years. She is 14 now. I got her in October and ride western, so its not her that has a problem, its me, trying to figure out what she needs, lol. 

She is one of those that is just big and gentle and does not realize she is appearing stubborn, she has a big presence and you have to remind her that she is big. She will push and shove if you let her get away with it, but I do not think she is being disrespectful as much as its just her way. She seems to be a gentle giant, lol.


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## sillyhorses

Tnavas said:


> I will stand by my statement that fiddling the horse down to stretch is incorrect - I am a classical dressage rider - taught by ex Spanish Riding school people and their students. A horse correctly trained will reach down WITHOUT the rider dropping his hands down or fiddling with the reins.


Psssst... Side reins are doing exactly what you are saying "not" to do here... and you are strongly advocating those. Except side reins lack the same give that the horse would receive from experienced hands... just sayin'. You are advocating side-reins, which exerts the same (even harsher, in many cases) downward pull on the horse. At least, in good hands, the horse would receive "give" for getting the correct response... gentle "fiddling" would be much more preferable (with immediate reward, of course) than a constant pull, as it encourages the "correct response" from the horse, more quickly, with less "constant" struggle than the downward pull of sidereins. 

Just saying... 

There is a time and place for many tools and training techniques - ones you are for, and ones your are against... riding techniques, as with most tools or devices, there is a correct use, and an incorrect use.

I should also "just say" that if a rider doesn't have good control of their hands, then side-reins are definitely the better choice...


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## Tnavas

Silly horses - my side reins have no elastic or donuts so are replicating the reins a rider has - I teach (Classically) that my horses work into the outside rein contact (A STILL ONE - Classical) - he doesn't receive a see sawing contact on his mouth. A classical rider rides into the outside rein with a still contact. 

I work them through from behind and as if I was on them and using my inside leg. A good rider Takes and Returns with a half halt - and does not throw away the rein, even free walk on a long rein has a contact.

What is the 'Free Walk on a Long Rein' exercise al about - the ability of the horse to remain relaxed - long rein is used to reward a horse for work completed - if riders use this in their work regularly through the schooling period the horse will know that as soon as the rein is eased out he can rest, relax. He should not need see sawing to achieve this.

My horses are all worked in a plain single jointed snaffle and with a cavesson noseband - think this says it all - I have happy horses, confident in the contact who don't resist their bits. ALL have been either brought on and broken with the side reins or have been reschooled the same.

Spanish Riding school use side reins that have no elestic inserts or donuts, and their horses are worked for a lot of the time in side reins and their horses work beautifully with no tension or resistance.


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## AnitaAnne

nvr2many said:


> No darn it. And she has a 6.5" mouth so it makes it hard to borrow and to find to purchase once I do decide what I want. I started a thread for help so maybe others will have suggestions also. Thank you!


The Pelham will work, but won't be "correct" for western shows. You can use it all other times. I've used one on horses especially when newbie kids are riding so they can stop the horse. 

I wonder though, are you using the snaffle the western way without a noseband? Because a horse can run though a snaffle easy without a noseband. But again, nosebands are not correct for western riding.

So we come to a bit that works like a pelham, but is western...the Tom thumb bit. Lately there seems to be a theory that the tom thumb is a harsh bit, but I have never had an issue with one. When I rode western I always used tom thumb bits and every single horse worked calmly and happily in a tom thumb but hated a regular curb and would throw up their heads even with a tiny pull on a ported, short-shanked curb.

Anyway, I expect I will get a lot of "hate replies" since I like a tom thumb, but oh well...

The are sites that sell bits up to a 8" for the really big drafts, so finding one in a 6.5 should not be hard at all.


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## eliduc

The thing is, when a rider is too rigid in their beliefs they are often self limiting. Horses are all different and the same thing doesn't always work on every horse or at least work as well. Good trainers have more than one way to achieve the same result. Most riders do not have lofty goals and do not want to take ten years to train their horse or to pay for ten years worth of lessons and training. They would rather buy a house. That is in no way being critical of those who do. I admire their tenacity. 

I am presently retraining a 9 year old Standardbred that was recently retired from the track. There were two problems that are common to off track Standys. 1. All of them are trained to travel at speed with a vertical neck and hollow backed frame. 2. If the horse is bred and trained as a pacer it is often very difficult to teach them to trot because they have been bred,trained and conditioned not to break from the pace....that is, both legs on the same side moving forward at the same time in a three beat gait. The standard procedure for achieving the trot is to longe the horse over ground poles. Another is to trot uphill under saddle because it is difficult for the horse to pace uphill. Since any race horse is taught to lean on the bit at speed, direct, steady contact is not necessarily the answer to altering the horses conditioned behavior. A hollow backed horse will never have a correct frame and head carriage. I first achieved a trot with this horse on the ground. At the same time I taught him to lower his head and reach at the mounted walk by lightly tickling the corners of his mouth with the reins and I can assure you that this is in no way "see sawing." It was not long before I had the horse reaching down with his head at the walk. However, he still would not trot on the flat under saddle. The object here is not to get into a fight with him over it but to ease him into the trot gently. He needed more ground work. On the longe he could not trot depart counter clockwise without a little hop and a skip. It was like he had to get his mind coordinated because he was thinking pace. Once he is in a trot he has a nice free flowing trot and he will hold it. That's a nice thing about Standy's, they are taught not to break gait. At First Bart had no stop, only go. He didn't know how to back. He didn't reverse on the longe line. Now he stops, backs and reverses. The place we we are at now is trot departures from a reverse on the longe in order to achieve a smooth trot departure without the hop skip. I am conditioning him to break into a trot without having time to think about the pace. It's much more difficult to break into a pace from a reverse. When he becomes consistent on the ground we will start working with what we have learned under saddle. Bart is already well trained to race in harness but nevertheless has holes in his education. An off track thoroughbred has been ridden but that doesn't make him a dependable or safe saddle horse. My philosophy is that a safe driving horse should first be made into a safe riding horse. There is much less control from behind the horse than from on top the horse. It's difficult if not impossible to teach the horse good basics, lateral movement and flexation if the horse has no trot. In the last week Bart has started stretching his head to the ground in just a halter at the trot on the longe without any gimmicks or aids. You do what works. The trot is a whole new thing for him. "Hey! I can travel relaxed without my head in the air like a giraffe." The goal here is not a dressage horse but a horse that can be ridden and driven safely on our trails. I have been working with Bart for about two months now.


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## iRide Ponies

What about this one?











Tom thumb Snaffle. We sometimes call these pony bits. Where I live, these are THE most popular bits.


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## Tnavas

iRide Ponies said:


> What about this one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom thumb Snaffle. We sometimes call these pony bits. Where I live, these are THE most popular bits.


Lovely bits - great for kids ponies as the cheeks help with steering


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## iRide Ponies

I do agree. I ride my pony in one, shes never had any other bit in her mouth (successfully. one time my friend tried to ride her in a full cheek snaffle... biggest.hissy.fit. from the second it entered her mouth. xD)


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## Retrospector

Hey, can anyone tell me how severe this bit is and what are the actions on it? Thanks ^^
http://www.horsebitbank.com/productimages/si2695-sweet-iron-tom-thumb_1.jpg
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tnavas

Retrospector said:


> Hey, can anyone tell me how severe this bit is and what are the actions on it? Thanks ^^
> http://www.horsebitbank.com/productimages/si2695-sweet-iron-tom-thumb_1.jpg
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's a pro Trainer with copper mouth and rings - It's reletively mild - It has a little bit of extra leverage so that the mouth will piece will slide up in the mouth - there is no poll pressure until the mouthpiece meets the back teeth - which is not likely.


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## Retrospector

Tnavas said:


> It's a pro Trainer with copper mouth and rings - It's reletively mild - It has a little bit of extra leverage so that the mouth will piece will slide up in the mouth - there is no poll pressure until the mouthpiece meets the back teeth - which is not likely.


Thank you, I feel more informed now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AnitaAnne

the Tom thumb bit I was speaking of on an earlier post.


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## AnitaAnne

Link to the Tom thumb bit
Saddles Tack Horse Supplies - ChickSaddlery.com Tom Thumb Copper Mouth Snaffle Bit


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## AnitaAnne

Great source for larger bits and other tack.
Draft Tack


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## AnitaAnne

*This is my favorite bit! *

the following description is from the Drafttack.com website. What a deal 

*SW-3997
Loose Ring with oval link and Cuprium Mouth 
$36.95*
This bits is made of the world's finest 18-8 (chromium/nickel) stainless steel. An alloy that is best for bits because it extremely strong. It also resists salt and acids in saliva, and will never rust or spot. Loose Ring Snaffle with oval link and Cuprium Mouth

*Sizes: 5", 5 1/4", 5 1/2", 6", 6 1/2", 7"*


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## ArabianMama

*Bit for soft mouth?*

This is wonderful information! We tried a Myler Kimberwick on my new mare (7 y/o Arabian), and she does not care for it. She's very soft in the mouth, and neck reins nicely. She responded to very light reins with this bit but we want to try something else. Her previous owner said she used a Tom Thumb, but I want to try something softer like a Myler Comfort Snaffle. 

Thanks for all this information! If anyone has recommendations for me, send 'em my way. I'm not married to Myler, so I'm happy to check out other brands. 

Thank you


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## AnitaAnne

ArabianMama said:


> This is wonderful information! We tried a Myler Kimberwick on my new mare (7 y/o Arabian), and she does not care for it. She's very soft in the mouth, and neck reins nicely. She responded to very light reins with this bit but we want to try something else. Her previous owner said she used a Tom Thumb, but I want to try something softer like a Myler Comfort Snaffle.
> 
> Thanks for all this information! If anyone has recommendations for me, send 'em my way. I'm not married to Myler, so I'm happy to check out other brands.
> 
> Thank you


I personally do not like Mylar bits, horses do much better with nice copper mouth that allows the horse to salvitate. The plastic drues out their mouth. Try putting them in your mouth and you will see which feels better.


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## bsms

I don't think Mylar uses plastic. FWIW, my horses act the same regardless of what kind of metal the bit is made of. I've never seen a difference in salivation between copper bits and stainless steel. That doesn't mean it works that way with all horses, just mine.


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## ArabianMama

AnitaAnne said:


> Try putting them in your mouth and you will see which feels better.


That actually is a really good idea. I imagine I won't want any bit, but it would be a good way to see what it feels like on the tongue.

I looked at some Korsteel dee ring snaffles with a french link. Reviews on other places were really good, so hopefully she'll like that one.


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## AnitaAnne

ArabianMama said:


> That actually is a really good idea. I imagine I won't want any bit, but it would be a good way to see what it feels like on the tongue.
> 
> I looked at some Korsteel dee ring snaffles with a french link. Reviews on other places were really good, so hopefully she'll like that one.


The French link seems to pinch because of the flat area, but some horses r fine with them. Try the bean snaffle, I think you both will like it


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## ArabianMama

AnitaAnne said:


> The French link seems to pinch because of the flat area, but some horses r fine with them. Try the bean snaffle, I think you both will like it


We went with the French link since they didn't have any other options at our local store, and Nahla does great with it. 

I couldn't find any good information online, but maybe others know. I took her bit out after our trail ride and it was covered in saliva. Not dripping, but there was foam on it. Thoughts on why this is? She didn't give any indication of being uncomfortable with the bit.


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## AnitaAnne

ArabianMama said:


> We went with the French link since they didn't have any other options at our local store, and Nahla does great with it.
> 
> I couldn't find any good information online, but maybe others know. I took her bit out after our trail ride and it was covered in saliva. Not dripping, but there was foam on it. Thoughts on why this is? She didn't give any indication of being uncomfortable with the bit.


Saliva is good, it means her mouth is being kept soft. Think of the action gum has to keep your mouth moist, a bit works the same. 

Another analogy is to think of babies teething, they rub their gums on something firm and drool. Your horse is doing the same thing. 

My horse will be very responsive with a soft hackamore at home, but out in the woods where he is a little more nervous he gets angry at the hackamore and much prefers his bit to play with.


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## ArabianMama

Eventually I'd like to ride her in a bitless bridle, but she's much too young for that now and much too hot. I'm so pleased how she reacted on our trail ride with the french link snaffle. No pulling, no fuss no muss. Easily rated even when she wanted to canter up the big hill! Silly girl. I'm interested to see how she does when we go for our endurance ride next month. It's going to be much more stimulation. 

Glad to see saliva is a good thing. I think she's a happy girl with this new soft bit. She deserves it. I hardly have to tug on the reins to get her to respond. Love that!


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## AnitaAnne

ArabianMama said:


> Eventually I'd like to ride her in a bitless bridle, but she's much too young for that now and much too hot. I'm so pleased how she reacted on our trail ride with the french link snaffle. No pulling, no fuss no muss. Easily rated even when she wanted to canter up the big hill! Silly girl. I'm interested to see how she does when we go for our endurance ride next month. It's going to be much more stimulation.
> 
> Glad to see saliva is a good thing. I think she's a happy girl with this new soft bit. She deserves it. I hardly have to tug on the reins to get her to respond. Love that!


I'm glad to hear she was happy with the bit, I've discovered the double jointed bits (like a french link or bean) are much easier on a horse's palate. 

Good luck on your endurance ride, please post the details afterwards


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## AnitaAnne

bsms said:


> I don't think Mylar uses plastic. FWIW, my horses act the same regardless of what kind of metal the bit is made of. I've never seen a difference in salivation between copper bits and stainless steel. That doesn't mean it works that way with all horses, just mine.


IMO, I've found that young horses seem to learn to work the bit easier with a copper mouth, but I have had no trouble transitioning to a stainless steel bit later. It may just be the way I do things, and maybe the horses would learn either way.


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## xdressage

Very informative, thank you!
I'm curious about some of the bits.. I've never seen any of the "icky mouthpieces" before. I don't even think we have these in my country. Do some people seriously ride with these? 
and the “I will hunt you down and torture you if you use these” Mouthpieces.. I'm gonna have to assume no one would be cruel enough to use them.. auch


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## JustDressageIt

xdressage said:


> Very informative, thank you!
> I'm curious about some of the bits.. I've never seen any of the "icky mouthpieces" before. I don't even think we have these in my country. Do some people seriously ride with these?
> and the “I will hunt you down and torture you if you use these” Mouthpieces.. I'm gonna have to assume no one would be cruel enough to use them.. auch


I've seen them being used. Sad but true. I've seen a chainsaw bit used regularly at a barn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AnitaAnne

JustDressageIt said:


> I've seen them being used. Sad but true. I've seen a chainsaw bit used regularly at a barn.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have to agree with this, I have seen these and worse...a barbed wire bit. Poor horses.


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## xdressage

JustDressageIt said:


> I've seen them being used. Sad but true. I've seen a chainsaw bit used regularly at a barn.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's horrible :-(


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## HorseGirl21

*My mare won't listen to any of my bits..*

I have a regular D-Ring Snaffle bit and she won't listen to a thing about it... And after the jumps in the corners when I ask for lead changes she takes of.. Now I'm using a Jointed-D Rubber Snaffle bit.. Still she won't listen at all. My trainer is suggesting a slow snaffle twist or a korkstel (however you spell it).. I am doing a USEF show.. And I'm not sure if I should try a Pelham bit on her or not? She like still in training of becoming a really good jumper, cause' before that she was a barrel racer... So, what you guys think?


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## Tnavas

HorseGirl21 said:


> I have a regular D-Ring Snaffle bit and she won't listen to a thing about it... And after the jumps in the corners when I ask for lead changes she takes of.. Now I'm using a Jointed-D Rubber Snaffle bit.. Still she won't listen at all. My trainer is suggesting a slow snaffle twist or a korkstel (however you spell it).. I am doing a USEF show.. And I'm not sure if I should try a Pelham bit on her or not? She like still in training of becoming a really good jumper, cause' before that she was a barrel racer... So, what you guys think?


A slow twist would be an ideal bit for you for a while, until your schooling is having an effect. What does your horse do if your trainer rides her?


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## AnitaAnne

HorseGirl21 said:


> I have a regular D-Ring Snaffle bit and she won't listen to a thing about it... And after the jumps in the corners when I ask for lead changes she takes of.. Now I'm using a Jointed-D Rubber Snaffle bit.. Still she won't listen at all. My trainer is suggesting a slow snaffle twist or a korkstel (however you spell it).. I am doing a USEF show.. And I'm not sure if I should try a Pelham bit on her or not? She like still in training of becoming a really good jumper, cause' before that she was a barrel racer... So, what you guys think?


How did she run barrels? Calm & focused...or nose in the air & frantic? What type of bit is she used too? I've never seen anyone run barrels in a snaffle. 

If it was my horse, I'd try the Pelham for a bit until she is a bit more experienced & taking turns calmer. She is likely used to the action of a curb from her previous barrel racing career, so the Pelham would help her transition. Using a more severe snaffle may make her more anxious and reactive.


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## KayceeJo

JustDressageIt said:


> *“I will hunt you down and torture you if you use these” Mouthpieces*
> 
> *Chain*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This bit acts much like the Waterford in action, but the slim chain and roughness of the links makes it a harsh bit. Mostly seen in western events.


 
I have been riding my entire life, Western specifically, and have never every seen a bit like this in any horse's mouth.


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## BreakableRider

I've seen the bashing on chain mouthpieces in both bit threads and I thought I would share my experiences. 

I have a wonderful 9yr old AQHA mare, Friska who is the best lesson horse anyone could ever hope for, she has the most forgiving personality of any horse I have ever met. She rides in a chain mouthpiece jr cowhorse bit. 

I got her as a late two year old (one month from turning three) and she was lightly started in a sidepull before I had an accident with another horse and broke my femur, at the time I was 15. 8 months later I was back in the saddle and she was still in a sidepull. As a 4 year old I finally decided I needed to teach her to ride with a bit. My sweet little mare who could be trusted to pack around my 5 and 3 year old cousins without ever putting a foot wrong turned into a monster when I bridled her. Yes her teeth were done. 

She took the bridle fine but when I stepped back she would try and kill herself. I tried all of your go to bits to start horses in, I tried every cheek piece, loose ring, eggbutt, d ring, full cheeks and bauchers. I tried single joints, french links, mullen mouths, rubber mouthpieces, thick mouthpieces and thin. 

What did she do you may ask? She would flip over backwards, rear up and paw at her head, turn and itch her head with a back hoof, itch on fences etc. She had more self mutilated head wounds than any horse i've ever seen. She absolutely panicked once I was out of the way. For a long time I thought she would never ride in a bit. It was a trick to get in there and rescue her when she got herself hung up. 

Now I was young and stupid and just blindly trying bits without really thinking about it. It wasn't until I found her current bit, the chain mouthpiece jr cowhorse that I started to figure things out. When I did bridle her with that bit, there was none of that self destructive action. She mouthed it for a few moments and that was it, I had a happy horse. Now I ask you, if it was really that horrible of a mouthpiece would a horse go from being so self destructive to content? 

Friska has a very very fat large tongue and a low palate. There isn't really much room for a bit in there. The chain mouthpiece is flat and curves around that massive tongue of hers so it doesn't get in the way. 

A well made chain mouthpiece should have no rough edges. All of the links should be smooth. Yes, if a rider had abusive hands and see sawed at the bit it would rub but that isn't how any bit should be ridden in. If you have abusive hands and haul back, yes it will wrap around the horses mouth. What bit isn't harsh if you ride in it that way. These bits are meant to be used on a loose rein, they aren't meant for contact work, they're just too bendy, that doesn't make it harsh. 

Friska is a lesson horse and she is regularly ridden by children and adults with uneducated hands that do all sorts of bad things. Never does she pin her ears, pull the reins out of a persons hands or even duck behind the vertical to evade the bit. 

For those wondering if i've tried this bit, yes I have. I've had it in the crook of my elbow, the back of my knee, and between my fingers to test how it feels. Even with harsh hands, unless you really see saw or yank back it is quite comfortable.


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## Zexious

^Interesting to read! I've never even seen such a bit...


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## jmike

any way to find out what is the correct way/direction to put these bits into a horses mouth?

i looked everywhere and it took me 3 days to find the right *direction a loose ring snaffle goes in


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## thinwaterpaddler

*What type of bit is this?*

Hello,

Can anyone tell me what type of bit is shown in the attachment? I believe it's a mullen mouth of some type. It was left in our barn by previous owners. I'm curious about what it is and how it is used?

Thanks,

Sonya


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## jumanji321

It's a Houghton bit and it's usually used on racehorses. I'm not sure what type of horse it would be used to to help their performance though.


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## thinwaterpaddler

Thanks!


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## SincerelyAmanda

Thank you! This helps a lot!


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## Horsebitsgalore

Great job!! Just want to point out that you are missing the ball joint in the mouthpieces section (below) :


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## Tnavas

It help with a horse that is hard to steer, the loop goes under the jaw. 

Nice that it is unjointed, some horses here in NZ wear a horrible version. - Have to be really careful its not put in the mouth the wrong way up.


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## Horsebitsgalore

Can't forget the Wing Cheek either!! One of the best bits I've ever used!!


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