# Unfair pattern scoring - Slight vent, opinions welcome.



## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

IMO, rodeo queen pageants are just beauty pageants, horse and rodeo style.

I have seen similar over and over in local rodeo queens. I don't get it either.
Apparently, a clean and accurate pattern and good riding ability mean next to nothing for most of these pageants. I believe in their eyes, really good social and communication skills, and a very personable and attractive girl matter more.
Kinda think maybe they should just get rid of the pattern and have them run barrels, since the pattern doesn't really seem to matter, more the speed and accurate barrel run. Just speaking from what I have personally seen.

:shrug: Not my thing.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Double post! Oops.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I'd be beyond annoyed, as well.

That just seems petty and like they nit-picked her, but let all sorts of crazy stuff slide with the other girls who placed higher.

Is there someone above the judges you could go to in order to file a complaint?


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## Red Gate Farm (Aug 28, 2011)

Are they professional, experienced judges or someone who volunteered from a committee?


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Without knowing any more details, almost sounds like politics are at play. Or like @Red Gate Farm mentioned, just a committee of volunteers who can't tell a hole in the ground from you-know-what!


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

For years, I used to judge the riding portion of our town's little britches rodeo ambassador contest (boys were allowed to compete, only one ever did). I judged the contestant's riding ability and how the horse responded, as per the judge's criteria port folio. Of course it helps to have a well trained horse to show off one's ability however the contestant riding the most well behaved horse didn't always win.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

You asked for one person's opinion on that particular day.......that is what I have been repeating to myself(and others who griped about judging....) for over 50 years.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^This.

That's the issue with judging events that include any sort of horsemanship or equitation. Unlike timed events, there is a lot of gray area--and a lot of room for bias. 
It sucks, but your student paid for those judges opinions, and got them. Learn from the experience--perhaps don't show under those judges again! 
So sorry the expression was a negative one :c


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Well that sucks. As a three time small town rodeo queen and judged a few unfortunately it's a popularity contest. Happened to me, happened to a girl I coached and when I judged I was chastised for not choosing the favorite but rather the girl who did the best and had a smile on her face doing it.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Yep the girl who won was someone who was well known in the community and one who did a lot of talking to everyone in our "barrel racing" world. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

I laughed at the stop thing though. During the critique I couldn't help but snort and say, "So what, they aren't supposed to stop on their hind end? A front end heavy rodeo queen horse is what is desired?"

They didn't like that.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

SorrelHorse said:


> I recently let a teen girl use my good horse (Selena) in a Queen competition. She used her for the pattern portion of the competition.
> 
> Apparently during the critique, my girl was told she did not score well because her horse "Slid" into the stop. Quote, "You're supposed to just stop, not slide stop" (Noting that she hardly even slid, she slid maybe two feet - She wasn't going fast enough to lay down a thirty foot slide)
> 
> In addition her turns were "too fast". Which is another thing to me because honestly, that mare is not that quick of a turner. But it is what it is. To me it looked like a crisp, correct, clean turn.



A few questions I have:

How many judges were there?

Who was the person giving this critique? One of the judges or someone else?

Remember in a queening competition, the girls are being judged on HORSEMANSHIP. They are not being judged on the maneuvars like you would in a real reining pattern. 

A pattern is open to interpretation. So if the pattern did NOT say sliding stop, there may be a judge who feels that a contestant should not do a sliding stop. I myself would not penalize a contestant for doing one, but of course that's the way that I would interpret it. Each judge is free to interpret the pattern on how they see it.




SorrelHorse said:


> The other girls did not do flying changes, they either stopped or broke through the trot - My team did flying changes.


What specifically did the pattern say? Again, I would never fault a girl for doing a nice flying lead change, but if the pattern specifically said "simple lead change" then you should do the pattern exactly as the pattern calls for, and some judges may be very picky on that.

Regardless, it is very possible that a simple lead change might score higher than a flying lead change, if the girl who did the simple lead change RODE BETTER. Remember it's about the rider. 

Not trying to say that your teenage girl didn't do a good job, but just trying to maybe shed some light on some possibilities. 

Yes, the quality of judges makes a difference too. If you've got a judge who doesn't know what a correct flying lead change looks like, obviously they aren't going to be as qualified to judge. With that said, sometimes it IS really hard to find people willing to judge. Just kind of depends on the particular pageant system.




SorrelHorse said:


> During the barrels/poles portion of it (Unrelated to the pattern but still frustrating to me) there was girls whose horses were practically flipping over backwards, all four feet off the ground, charging, bolting, running wild - And when my client and her horse walked in calmly, circled, ran a clean pattern, faster than a lot of them - She still did not place well because apparently it wasn't "challenging enough".


Interesting. I have never heard of a queen pageant that had a barrels/poles component. 

What was the stated criteria for judging? Was it still based on horsemanship? If so, again, it doesn't necessarily matter how the horse is acting but would be how the judges felt the rider _handled _the horse. 

Once again, not saying your gal did a poor job but just trying to remind folks that *if* the basis of the judging was horsemanship, then they are looking more to the _rider_, and not your actual time on the pattern or the behavior of the horse.



SorrelHorse said:


> They placed second from last in the whole competition.
> 
> I don't understand this. I am no stranger to the rodeo world but year after year I have seen Queens go in on insane horses, jumping and rearing to get in the gate - Them complaining to me back in the chutes that they need someone who can keep their horse under control - and then someone who is a lovely young horsewoman on a really well broke, seasoned horse comes along and she is kicked to the curb.
> 
> ...


Remember that horsemanship is usually only 1/3 of the overall score. They are also judged on appearance and personality. And sometimes other factors, depending on the pageant. 

Were you able to view the actual score sheets? Sometimes they release them; sometimes not. But maybe your gal did not do as well on her personal interview as some of the other contestants. 

Yes it is important the queen can ride a horse. But it is equally important that she can talk to people and be an overall good representative. Some judges may choose the outgoing-type girl even if she can't ride quite as well as the quiet-type girl. Remember that who the judges pick is THEIR OPINION on who would best represent the title. 

I've been on all sides of queen pageants as a contestant, a pageant coordinator, and a judge. And also a spectator. It is amazing the *different views* that you get in those different situations. One of the biggest pageants I used to work with was very formal in that the judges score cards were very specific and it is held over 2-3 days. And the judges were specifically selected to make sure they did NOT know any of the contestants, but also knew enough about horses and the rodeo world. But I've worked with other pageant systems where there really weren't score cards at all, and the judges were just the saddle club members. 

So there's all types of pageants out there. Of course, it would be erroneous to say that politics and bias never played a factor, but that is certainly not true in all pageant systems. Some work very hard to make sure it is fair playing field for all contestants. But even still, there are just some contestants (and mothers!) who are just sour that their competitior didn't win. There are people from all walks of life, just like anything else. One does have to remember that the winner is chosen based off of someone else's OPINION of who did the best. Judging is subjective. And you have to look at the entire point system; not just the horsemanship portion.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Beau, I agree with what you are saying, however where sorrelhorse lives is also very close to where I did my queening. Around there it is common to use barrels/poles as part of the contest. Also horsemanship is usually about 80%.


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## KLJcowgirl (Oct 13, 2015)

Ugh... This brings up a memory of my very first queen contest. I think I would have been about.. 10? This particular contest was simply a reining pattern and then when you were finished you stopped at the fence and the judges asked you a few questions. I knew my horse like the back of my hand and practiced and practiced for this. I watched some of the other girls my age, and quite honestly felt I had a very good chance at placing. 

When I went in the first thing my mare did was spook at the bucking chutes that we passed many times just fine while warming up. She shot sideways, but I got her under control and finished my pattern just as I had practiced. I stopped and talked to the judges. They asked me questions about my horse, I answered. Nothing else went wrong except for that first spook. 

Well... I didn't place. We couldn't understand. I had one of the best patterns and certainly had a better seat (not to toot my own horn, but I have always had a great seat). Anyways, we got the judging sheets for me and one said, "Very intimidated by horse." That was pretty well the only negative comment I had on all three judge papers. We're pretty sure it's because I lost my "perma-smile" during the spook. :wink:

Well needless to say I cried the whole way home. My mother was furious. But we talked about it and I had a very hard lesson that day, that sometimes you just don't win. Some people like you, some don't. And I've had many reminders of that lesson. :icon_rolleyes:

Your situation certainly sounds like there may have been some politics involved or some other fishy business. I also agree with what Beau said. I don't know how the pattern was written, but I don't think a horse sitting to stop is a bad thing at all and certainly wouldn't call it a fault. Though if the pattern called for a simple lead change, I think a simple lead change should be done. But for teens, I think it should be a flying change. 

I also have never heard of barrels and poles being part of a Queen contest. I kind of like that idea. From your post I assume it's not timed and still judged??? And if they were judging on horsemanship, maybe that's why the girls placed higher? I don't think I would have placed them above a girl who came in on a controlled horse, because to me that shows she *probably practices and trains outside the contest, and THAT is horsemanship.

In any case... what's done is done, and the judges saw what they saw (one reason I have a love/hate relationship with judging). Is this girl dealing with it ok? I'm sure its horribly frustrating for her too! I'm hoping this doesn't turn her off of competing. Find a different contest maybe a little farther away. :wink:


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I taught my girl very strongly that she is to be a horseman first and a barrel racer second. She rides like a professional. She is still learning of course, as all teens are, but her body posture is incredibly solid. She looks up, sits up straight, holds her off hand where it is supposed to be, has steady solid leg, smiles, and rides her pattern. I understand it is not an equitation pattern, but regardless many of the other girls were leaning, toes down, looking down, and other various bad barrel racer habits that come from girls who have done nothing but run barrels their whole life with no other outlet.

There were three judges. I know all three of them. 

Yes barrels and poles are very common for a queen contest in this area.

I can't remark on the interview portion as obviously I wasn't there. 

I do a lot of work for the rodeos out here, directing, running sponsor flags, drill team, pushing livestock, hauling livestock, what have you - They know I'll do it for them for small costs because I love it. However year after year I see this happen, and the girl who is a good horseman and not just a wild and crazy teenager always gets snubbed. I love my rodeo world, but everytime I look around and I see this - Not even just with the Queens, but with everyone - that they favor the wild, out of control, impressive looking one instead of the one who has control and can actually do their job.

But I suppose we are a spectator sport.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I suppose pattern open to interpretation is one thing. The terms were "stop, rollback right" (Or left) and "At center, change leads" , "Complete four turns to the left". 

Yes I am too thinking they picked the girl who entered the barrel pattern completely out of control because they thought she "handled it well". I suppose not everyone shares my opinion that gate problems are unacceptable. 

She's handling the loss just fine, or as well as any proud hard working teen would for having worked her *** off with me for months and being snubbed.

I offered to let her have my place on the flag team this year instead. Not quite as fun or as glamorous but she can still dress up and ride Selena and smile and wave and such. And she can push that crazy new Queen's horse into the arena.

Seriously. I've had some years when I've had horses on either side and two behind SHOVING the Queen horse in, and when they go tin they just ran like crazy because they were so terrified of the crowd. They run out, come skidding onto the asphalt like bambi on ice, snorting and sweating and the Queen is scared for her life. Just seems like a disaster waiting to happen.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

@SorrelHorse, if it makes you feel any better, our Queens around here are the same way. I've never actually seen the competitions, but I've seen plenty of the Queens in parades and, quite frankly, Aires could handle the parades better as he sits right now than any of their horses could. :shock: It's amazing what passes for "good riding" sometimes.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

The Queens (and their mounts) I have seen around here are the same way, barely contained and full of **** and vinegar. Maybe that is for the fanfare and to make it look exciting. Let's face it, fantastic horsemanship without any drama is boring to most non-horsemen. 
Sounds like you have taught her well, both in horsemanship AND sportsmanship. For that you should be proud.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

@SorrelHorse

I like a barrel racer that believes gate problems are unacceptable. You are a rare breed indeed!
@DraftyAiresMum

Yup. And some of the girls are 'good riders' even though they've had three different horses in two years. Ruined the last one, daddy buys a different one, each one showier than the last. 
Somehow, being on a well trained quiet horse is less admirable than being on one who is completely out of control, and not falling off.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

horseluvr2524 said:


> @DraftyAiresMum
> 
> Yup. And some of the girls are 'good riders' even though they've had three different horses in two years. Ruined the last one, daddy buys a different one, each one showier than the last.
> Somehow, being on a well trained quiet horse is less admirable than being on one who is completely out of control, and not falling off.


What I really hate are the ones who not only have the crazy horses, but have the crazy _*skinny*_ horses with spur scars on their sides. Saw several of those at the last Frontier Days parade here in Prescott. Out of all the Queen and court horses, I don't recall one of them who was at a good weight or who didn't have spur scars.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I 'like' your comment in that I agree. But I don't like what you are talking about.

I feel so bad for those horses. Worse than the physical is the mental and emotional trauma and damage. Physical problems can heal, but it takes much longer for the horse to get his mind back.


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## KLJcowgirl (Oct 13, 2015)

horseluvr2524 said:


> I 'like' your comment in that I agree. But I don't like what you are talking about.
> 
> I feel so bad for those horses. Worse than the physical is the mental and emotional trauma and damage. Physical problems can heal, but it takes much longer for the horse to get his mind back.


I certainly had some issues come up with my gelding after those dang Queen Buzzes at the beginning of rodeos. If you try to have a controlled lap, you get plowed over and rear ended by the next girl. And standing in the center of the arena is a nightmare with all those buzzed horses, especially with a horse who feeds off of others. I don't know that I miss it all to much. Sure it was fun, but I always had to go to another arena after a buzz and work back down to slow and controlled, and I just hate extra work haha.

Parades were fun though.

BUT... There are plenty of girls I know who do try their hardest to maintain a good ride. It's just the couple who don't kind of ruin it for the rest (like every other discipline! haha) There are lots of girls around here who do try their hardest to maintain control, and have fabulous horses. But again like Beau said, sometimes horsemanship is only 1/3 of the score, so if you can ace it in the beauty/interview stuff, who cares about horsemanship? (sarcasm)


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I don't know about everyone else but if there's no other reason to avoid gate problems, it's because I don't like having a horse with a full set of metal shoes sliding and skidding on the asphalt, rearing, jumping, snorting - Seen a lot of girls get hurt that way.

You can jig. You can even snort and bounce a little bit. But you go forward with purpose and you do not do any acrobatics, and you never refuse, run backwards, or come up on me. Never ever.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I think what you got is a two part snub.

First -- it is probably more about who she is (or isn't) than how she rides.

Second -- show horses and the show horse world are thought of as stuck up snobs by the rodeo crowd in a lot of areas. This is one of them here. A horse is looked down on as 'some highfalutin fancy show horse' by most of the rodeo people around here. If a horse isn't on a tight rein trying to run off he isn't any good for anything but a stupid horse show.

There was such a fight several years back around here as to what a good horsemanship/ Queen contest ride was and whether a person or their family had to own the horse they used (rather than borrow someone else's show horse) that they now 'win' a Queen contest by selling the most tickets to the rodeo.


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## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

My daughter has been barrel racing with just one club for eight years. It seems to me, in my VERY uneducated opinion, that the queens in our club win because they have the parents who work the hardest for the club. Seems that way almost every year.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Let me add one other thing: Those queens are not always riding their own horse. 

I actually rarely hauled my own horse when I did the bulk of my rodeo queening. I'd contact the stock contractor ahead of time to see if they would have a horse available for me to use.

And yes, I rode some crazy stock contractor horses. I remember one horse kept running backwards with me while I was attempting to get him to stand quietly while holding the American Flag during the national anthem. I suppose there were people in the crowd who were judging me for not "training my horse" to stand better .... when of course, it was not my horse and I did the best I could with him. 

Heck, the year I ran for our state title, we were all appalled at the horses they brought for us for horsemanship. My first draw horse wouldn't even stop. Another gal had to stand by herself the whole time because the horse would donkey kick at anyone who got near him. Another gal's horse reared numerous times. Etc. And we had to use these horses (required) for our horsemanship patterns and the rodeo entry/flags. It was ridiculous. But we did the best we could. 

So anyway, I'm not saying there aren't crazy queen horses out there (because there are!) but don't always assume it is their own horse. It sometimes may be a borrowed horse or a stock contractor horse.



SorrelHorse said:


> I can't remark on the interview portion as obviously I wasn't there.


Sometimes those behind-the-scenes moments really make a difference for the judges. And of course, those are the things that no one sees _except _for the judges. 



SorrelHorse said:


> There were three judges. I know all three of them.
> 
> I do a lot of work for the rodeos out here, directing, running sponsor flags, drill team, pushing livestock, hauling livestock, what have you - They know I'll do it for them for small costs because I love it. However year after year I see this happen, and the girl who is a good horseman and not just a wild and crazy teenager always gets snubbed. I love my rodeo world, but everytime I look around and I see this - Not even just with the Queens, but with everyone - that they favor the wild, out of control, impressive looking one instead of the one who has control and can actually do their job.


Is it the same judges every year?

Since this is something you clearly have a bit of passion for, how about seeing if you can be a judge in the future? Of course, in a year where you would not know any of the contestants closely. Or at least get on the committee that organizes the queen pageant, as it sounds like you are fairly involved in the rodeo already. 

Goes with the old adage of if you don't like how something is run, then do something about it. :wink:


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Brittany,


Thanks for your insight. I have not been privy to the ins and outs of the Rodeo Queen game, but I can appreciate the struggle of riding unfamiliar horses under pressure as it is a requirement for upper level Pony Club exams (I had the honor of riding a horse who liked to run sideways at the jumps and buck upon landing...that was fun).


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Brittany, I would love to judge but to them I am not "experienced" enough and they will always favor the older ones who have been rodeoing longer than I have been alive. Not saying that's a bad thing, just saying they won't have that kind of snark and differing opinion - Especially not from someone much younger than them.

Yes it is the same three judges every year. Community is rather small.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You have to consider the qualification of those judging those types of events
I sometimes took the horse I showed in reining and western riding , to an all breed show, giving er some different things to do, like tail classes and English classes
Of course, I also showed her in reining, if it was offered
The particular 'judge' that day was from a dressage background , but not a carded judge by any means
She placed horses above me, who did simple lead changes, or dragging a hind lead, if they attempted a flying change, horses that could not spin, do a proper roll;back, executing them in a slow 'paint drying manner'
When I rode up to her and dropped my bridle,as you do after a reining run, she had no idea why, walked up to my horse, patted her on the head, and said, " you have to learn to take it easy! "
I have been asked in the past to judge Rodeo Queen contests for our local town, and learned to decline after the first time, knowing how my 'fellow judges' were judging!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I never got the entire 'Queen thing, whether Rodeo, or the Appaloosa princess competition.
Part beauty contest, and why not Rodeo kings???
To me it just demeaned women/girls , far as being serious horse people.
A friend, who is a very good sewer and clothes designer, made all kinds of wonderful rodeo outfits for her daughter, who was also a very good rider, having grown up with that mom that rode both hunter jumpers, endurance and then latter on, reining
She was beat by a girl whose mother was more intimately connected to the rodeo scene


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Smilie said:


> I never got the entire 'Queen thing, whether Rodeo, or the Appaloosa princess competition.
> 
> To me it just demeaned women/girls , far as being serious horse people.


Curious: In what way do you think rodeo queen titles DEMEAN a person?


Not that there aren't "bad eggs" in every facet of life, but a few of the hardest working _serious_ horse people I have ever known have been rodeo queens. The amount of preparation and work and studying that goes into winning a title; well, it's a lot. 

When I ran for the state title, I spent most of the previous year studying and preparing. You could be asked ANY type of question from current events, to current rodeo standings, to equine anatomy, equine training, etc. You really had to know your stuff and think on your feet. 

In my area, some of our local pageants can have tough questions like this too. It shows what contestants are prepared and took the time to prepare.

Yes, I know that not all pageants are run like that, but I think it's rather unfair to group them all together. 

Being a rodeo queen can present a lot of great opportunities and life experiences, that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise. There are some great rewards with it. 



Smilie said:


> She was beat by a girl whose mother was more intimately connected to the rodeo scene





knightrider said:


> It seems to me, in my VERY uneducated opinion, that the queens in our club win because they have the parents who work the hardest for the club.





sorrelhorse said:


> Yep the girl who won was someone who was well known in the community and one who did a lot of talking to everyone in our "barrel racing" world.



These types of comments are always ones I am sad to hear. People "assume" that a girl won because of x, y, z connections .... and not that maybe she happened to be the best qualified candidate. Yes, politics do happen and I'm not denying that, but it seems that the first thing people assume is that is WAS politics, and not the other way around. 

We've had it happen on the queen committee I used to be a part of too. Parents upset because "the local girl always wins". Sometimes, the race was really tight and came down to a couple points. Sometimes, the local girl blew the other ones out of the water because she WAS the better qualified contestant. I think people like to look for political reasons why their sweet girl didn't win, instead of the fact (and sometimes quite obvious fact) that the other contestant was just plain _better. _Most of the time, our judges were NOT local judges, yet that didn't seem to make a difference to the parents who thought their daughter was discriminated against because she wasn't local. If you don't win, there's an opportunity to make it a learning experience and build character. And there's an opportunity to twist it the other way. :icon_rolleyes:

Anywho. That's my rant on that.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I don't think being a rodeo queen is demeaning at all. Like Beau said, it provides opportunities and it is another way for girls to get involved in rodeo. 
Again like Beau said, not always are they riding their own horses, you can't judge based on how the horse acts in a grand entry or a parade. 
And no, not all queen contests are political but unfortunately it does happen in these small towns where the judges know the girls competing. Politics are part of the horse world, always have been always will.


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