# Shouldn't you be rescuing?



## Clementine (Sep 24, 2009)

I know this is a section on breeding, but I think this also falls into this category. With all of the NICE nurse mare foals* created by the Thoroughbred Racing industry, why is anyone breeding? While you're breeding another baby, a nurse mare foal is on a cramped trailer to Mexico or Canada for slaughter. This just isn't right. 

*Nurse Mare foals are often Draft or stock-type (Quarter Horse, Paint, etc) mares crossed to a Thoroughbred stallion. For more information on Nurse Mare Foals, click here.

Thank you.


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Hmm. This is weird to me. We bred out mares with a foal at side/nearby. These were expensive/valuable racehorses.

Regardless though, I think adopting is a great idea. I don't think it needs to take the place of breeding. I think if you are breeding high quality, in demand horses, good for you. However adoption/buying/rescu/etc should take the place of breeding poor quality/no demand horses.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Have to agree with Spastic. Breeding good quality, registered, well conformed horses is fine; in fact, it is a must for nearly every show and many working industries. However, many people who just want a horse to have a horse would do well with a rescue. Rescues and adoptions fit my needs perfectly because I am saving a life and I don't really need a specific type or breed of horse. Almost any horse can be taught to do and withstand the type of ranch/trail work that I do but if I were into racing, cutting, reining, jumping, dressage, etc., then I would want a horse that was bred for it and would win.


----------



## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

I agree. 

Not all of my horses are rescue's but a good amount of the horses that I have ever owned have been rescues. I still own one rescue (he's got a GREAT personality, but will never be a show horse) my reining/show horses are bred to their specific job and I wouldn't settle for anything less. 

I don't think that breeder should stop, just taken more seriously. Only breed horse that in excell in the events they are breed for.


----------



## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

What I find curious about this thread is the request for other people not to breed to take up the slack for the Thoroughbred Racing Industry's need for nurse mares. You should be preaching to the TB Racing Industry to lessen the use of nurse mares. 

After having worked on a large TB racing facility in KY, I saw some HIDES being bred. "Yeah, this mare tries to kill the baby." "This mare comes from a long line of maneaters." "This mare never amounted to much on the track, and we have ten other mares bred very similar to her, but we breed her anyway because surely out of 30 babies, we'll get something that will make us money."

There are very few reasons in my mind that nurse mares should be necessary.


----------



## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

LadyDreamer said:


> What I find curious about this thread is the request for other people not to breed to take up the slack for the Thoroughbred Racing Industry's need for nurse mares. You should be preaching to the TB Racing Industry to lessen the use of nurse mares.
> 
> After having worked on a large TB racing facility in KY, I saw some HIDES being bred. "Yeah, this mare tries to kill the baby." "This mare comes from a long line of maneaters." "This mare never amounted to much on the track, and we have ten other mares bred very similar to her, but we breed her anyway because surely out of 30 babies, we'll get something that will make us money."
> 
> There are very few reasons in my mind that nurse mares should be necessary.


Ditto to this post!


----------



## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

Wow?! Really? That's bad as well. 

It's unfortunate that we should ever have to pick up the slack for bad breeding, but either we do or the meat guy does. In Alberta at the fall auctions you see about 100+ foals per sale (A sale every two weeks) plus an auction mart about ever 100+miles or so. It truly is pathetic that people breed just to kill...really, that's what they are doing.


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I think it should be my choice. 

I'm not a selfish person, I have rescued horses, dogs, and cats. my dogs have always been mutts (save for one scottish terrier bought back in the 80's by my parents). My cats are all pound kitties or strays. My first few horses were abuse or neglected cases.

I bred my mare. I have a wonderful baby out of her. He's a registered QH. I never had a horse with papers before. I wanted papers. I love my horse, and not just because he has papers. He's what I wanted. I could have adopted, I could have "saved" one from an auction, I wanted one with papers. Don't I have that right? Why should I feel guilty for wanting a well-bred papered horse? I offer a helping hand when I can, I even donate money. Shouldn't that be enough?

I bought a dog 2 summers ago. He's a collie, with papers. I've always wanted one and I love him dearly. Why should every animal I own come from a pound or a rescue? Why can't I have a pure bred dog? I help when I can... I donate when I can.

I think it should be MY choice.


----------



## Aoi Miku (Sep 27, 2009)

I always said that If I had the money I'd ship some 30 rescue horses over to the UK. Good times when I thought anything was possible.

I'm pretty sure the horse world over there is big? What about a petition to have the breeding regulated.
I know what I'd do if I moved to America..
Buy OTTB's or one's in feedlots and auctions and train them into riding horses/eventers.

I do agree that rescuing should take the place of poor breeding. 
I also think if the American horseworld joined up with the British horseworld and came down on these TB breeders we'd get a result.

It's a long shot. But clubs set up to reward good breeding and the anti racehorse breeding club would work.

If in doubt make a club that's what I always say ^^


----------



## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

If we ask for regulation, then we lose our choice. As Farmpony said, I will second. I want to be able to choose whether or not I breed my mares or rescue. Who would tell us what horses have bloodlines worthy enough to breed? The only people who know good working lines in horses are the people that work them and show them. Some bloodlines other people may not like, while someone else does. Neither are wrong if both horses are quality animals.

If we ask for regulation, then we are going to have someone who may or may not know anything about the type of horse we are working with tell us how we should go about our practices. 

Regulation is not the answer. Education is.


----------



## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>>> What I find curious about this thread is the request for other people not to breed to take up the slack for the Thoroughbred Racing Industry's need for nurse mares. You should be preaching to the TB Racing Industry to lessen the use of nurse mares. _

I agree 100% with the above. Also adopting a nurse mare foal is committing to raise (or finish raising) an orphan. This is NOT a realistic task for most people, even dedicated horse owners/lovers. It can take round the clock care, and the foal without a dam is more at risk for neonatal illness and both physical and social maladjustment. 

Raising a young horse, even if it is a well adjusted weanling or yearling who spent penty of quality time with its dam and others in their "herd" prior to weaning, is also not for everyone. In fact, most people who are looking for a horse should -- because of experience, accomodations, and desired use -- be looking for an adult, well trained horse.

And I am not saying this because I am anti-breeding-- I have a small, select breeding program, and I have one or two or three weanlings or yearlings available for sale every couple of years. My youngsters have dams chosen in part because of their motherly talents, they are not weaned early, they spend time on pasture with other mares and foals running and playing with their little "herd", they get handled and exposed lots of interesting situations to help them be confident quiet willing horses later on-- but I STILL would not recommend everyone buy one. (and no I do not have any youngsters for sale at present so this is no sales pitch .)


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I'd say rescuing has nothing to do with the good breeding. There are not too many nice bred horses with great confo that end up on meat plants (I'm talking about % here, and yes even the greatest champion can fall in bad hands). There is always a demand for the nice horses, and many people want well bred horses for competitions. So why should someone sacrifice that just to clean up after some dudes who created the not-so-great horse (and sometime just really bad horse) in first place? I think there should be restrictions and some rules on breeding (and at least limit the number of babies as some "facilities" throws tens babies on ground), but it's just IMO. 

I own 2 rescues myself. I wouldn't sacrifice them for the $100K jumper/dressage/cutter/name it. But I see nothing wrong with people wanting to get a nice horse either - it's the person choice one has to respect.


----------



## ChevyPrincess (Aug 27, 2009)

First of all, breeding top-line horses needs to be continued. Breeding horses with excellent dispositions, conformation, etc,is totally fine. I also think it is fine to breed to get a horse you want. **However, I don't agree with ten babies from a down hill horse, but if you want a foal out of the mare you love to death, so be it.

Rescues aren't for everybody. It takes a lot of time and commitment. And, as EastoWest (I think) pointed out, you usually have NO idea of the bloodlines or anything like that. 

I volunteered at my local humane society. All of my cats and dogs have been from a shelter, or strays. And they are all fixed. I have had two rescues horses. But, I must say, my appaloosa now, that has been bred for good qualities is the best horse I have ever owned.

Also, I am pro-slaughter. It's a fact of life, if there wasn't slaughter, there would be _too many_ horses and not enough room. It also helps keep the horse industry alive. Think about it, all the horses that are starving to _death_, slow and painful, if they go to slaughter, quick stunning and death. 

So, yes, rescue horses and horses from auctions are all out there, but not everyone has the expirence or the 'want to' to do that. I definitely don't recommend it. It's hard! My last horse I rescued, I had for 3 years! I worked with her, and by the third year, I was finally able to catch her with a halter and lead without her running off! I had no idea of her breed, bloodlines, anything. The poor thing ended up getting kicked and died that same year, but it was a slow, long progress, very frustrating at times. I have never dealt with a nurse mare foal or anything like that, but i imagine it would be the same.


----------



## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

_Someone_ has to breed well-conformed, high quality horses so we can keep having them. And I think it's inevitable that fuglies will always be around because stupid people will always exist. I do advocate rescuing, however. 

There will always be a surplus of Thoroughbreds, too. Same goes for mustangs. Why in the world would you deliberately make more of them when the BLM wants to kill 2000 of them a year? There's nowhere to go with the ones we have _now_. Can you tell I'm not fond of mustang breeders?

[/end rant]


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

It's a complicated question. I like how we ''can't'' breed on not approved stallions (or couldn't, now we can and it's legal), on the other hand I think that horses without great bloodlines or that doesn't look typical enough for the breed specific, can still be great quality horses and should be bred from.

But we don't have the problem with tons of unwanted horses, at least not as big. Most of them are swedsh standardbreds that's not fit for racing (which I think is rgw racing industry rather than the general breeders, fault) and horses that's old or injured. It's simply too little pay for breeding unwanted horses. 
However.. thee are of course less good and less thought through horses.. and I fear we'll have more of them now.

I dunno, I just wish people would think twice before breeding, both people just wanting a foal but breeders too. "This mare is lame for the rest ofher life, let's breed her''.. and why did she get lame/sick? Do we want those genes to continue? If she couldn't handle the mounted training when she was younger but kept getting overworked, isn't that a sign on low quality? I know you can train right and wrong, but I still don't want to breed a horse that couldn't get through the training.

Even with well planned breeding, there will be less good foals. I think they should be cheaper than the better foals, and us who don't have ambitions to win the olympics can still have more than enough capacity in a not perfect horse.

If only everyone could judge their horses, mares and foals objectivly and fairly, looking at capacity and health.


----------



## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

You guys are so right breeding has to continue if we want our wonderful horses. BUT we should only breed excellent horses. 

Farmpony, we should have choices I agree. And you've done your part, you've rescued many animals, of course that is enough. Your mare (I'm pretty sure about this from talking to you) was bred to a stallion that complimented her and you show the resulting foal.


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

And for rescues and stuff..having them killed instead of saced won't stop the breeding.

I do know tho that on iceland they try to sell foals to us in sweden and have us save them.. as far as I know (I'm not sure on this) the foals are bred for slaughter but they've figured they get more money if they sell them. Or else they won't loose anything anyway. It's not a good deal for us, with the shipping the foals end up as more expencive than well bred and high quality foals here, plus you risk their health by the move and don't know if they'll stand the sun or get issues with it here. 50% of the imported horses from iceland get rashes from sun ans insects. (_only 3-5% of the home-bred ones does even if the mare has it, I suppose they're used to it drom start._)

I've heard another version, that they just reed and sell us the bad ones that would have been killed otherwisse.

Perhaps it's both..

In that case I'm unsure if our will to help actually does give more unwanted icies life, or not. But generally, helping the excistent neglected horses won't really make any differense.

Then I'm against saving horses from slaughter. Unless it's a horse you happened to fall in love with or anything, but to have it as a system..I rather have the horses killed than moved around dirt cheap to god knows what people. Not all rescued horses gets to nice people, cheap horses generally end up bad again. And to sell them expencive with no paprs, no history and not knowing why they were sent to death or how much they know in training, isn't right either, they can have bad injuries that keeps coming up etc and that's painful for the horse as well. Checking the people taking care of the horses too well also hits a string in me.I mean, I don't want more trouble saving a horse than buying a healthy, sound one, or more watchful eyes judging me, more paperwork etc. Plus if you're gonna save them, isn't it better to give them a home and have space for another horse in need of help?
I'm against bad treatment of animals tho, kill them if they have bad chances of a good life and is unwanted, but don't torture them on the way.. Dead horses desnt suffer. But every single minute before death they might, so make sure they're treated respectfully and calmly.

Blergh, I dunno.


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

I guess slaughter is different here too..
You can get your horse killed at home in a calm environment when it's too old to have a painfree life, and most horses going to legal slaughter has pains or issues and simply deserves an end to it, but their owners don't mind them being eaten by others once they're dead. They're well cared for and not transported very far, the owner can come along and the people handeling it is usually calm and keeps the horses calm.

The illegal transports are worse and there is a reason they're illegal..suffering, pain, death and lots of horses that was sold in trust to ''a good home''..


----------



## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

I agree to an extent:

There's a lot of people in the world who's income depends entirely on breeding and selling horses. They can't just stop breeding when they have a steady income going on.

Also, when you rescue a horse, you have no idea of its breeding, sometimes even its breed, its experience, and if you're looking for a certain horse (e.g, a national hunter-jumper to show) you need to be sure you get a horse that has been bred to whatever discipline you want.


----------



## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Most of the time, the horses that end up in rescues and on the auction block are the result of backyard breeders. People think they know what they're doing, but have absolutely no clue and end up not being able to train them


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

equiniphile said:


> Most of the time, the horses that end up in rescues and on the auction block are the result of backyard breeders. People think they know what they're doing, but have absolutely no clue and end up not being able to train them


I suppose those needs homes too, I wouldn't mind if the horse was a good age and healthy with a somewhat ok conformation.

I thik those people are stupid and irresponsible..the least thing they can do is to make sure their foal grets proper traning, even if that takes a professional. Most well educated young horses can be sold at a fairly high price. And I'm not even thinking on highly educated, just having the basics put down well and safe makes the horse desireable.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

equiniphile said:


> Also, when you rescue a horse, you have no idea of its breeding, sometimes even its breed, its experience, and if you're looking for a certain horse (e.g, a national hunter-jumper to show) you need to be sure you get a horse that has been bred to whatever discipline you want.


I really disagree with that. It really depends on what you mean by "rescue". Both my mares have papers (and not the worst one, the paint has several race champs in her pedigree, qh has Doc Bar and Poco Bueno). And I knew for sure the experience. Lol! However considering the situations I took them from when they were yearlings I'd still call it rescue (don't want to go into all details here). There is VERY high chance they would end up on meat truck, because they had no training, lots of attitude, no respect for people, and paint an abuse as a nice addition to the rest. I also know some people having rescues and getting places at the big shows. So it all depends really...


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

So basically what you're saying is that we're not allowed to have well-bred, well-conformed foals because of OTHER idiots? That's a little silly.

The majority of rescue horses, such as nurse foals and PMU foals are NOT what the average person wants to own. The breeding is poor at best, and the only purpose is to drop foals. Many PMU farmers do their best to breed better conformed, registerable stock nowadays but we still must face facts that they're not breeding the cream of the crop. They make cute pets and trail horses and heck yeah, more then a few even go on to be champions in their own way. But realistically, most people aren't looking for a half-Draft to compete on.

I don't think we have any responsibility for these people. Obviously if you're in a position to rescue, by all means, power to you. But to make a person actually feel guilty about a proper breeding program or even investing in a nice foal from their personal mare is ridiculous.

It's not going to stop the idiots from breeding crap, and then suddenly we're not going to have any good horses left because everyone's buying cow-hocked ewe-necked pigeon toed roached back misfits.


----------



## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> But to make a person actually feel guilty about a proper breeding program or even investing in a nice foal from their personal mare is ridiculous.


This is not what I want to do at all, I don't want anyone to feel guilty other than backyard breeders. I think you do have every right to own a well papered well conformed horse ( I do) And I'm not saying that EVERYONE has to rescue. However either people rescue those back yard foals or they get killed, simple as that. If we want to save these foals then it is our responsiblity to take them on. Should we have to? Hell no! People should just be more responsible, so that horse aren't being bred just to be killed.


----------



## RiddlesDarkAngel5 (Jun 2, 2009)

I think rescue is an excellent idea and if more people rescued, less horses would be going to slaughter. however, i agree with the person (i dont remember who specifically) said that the solution is education not regulation. we need to educated people on proper breeding techniques, confirmation, and the different options available for their horse if it doesnt work out besides slaughter or abandonment. just telling people they can't breed won't work. it isn't fair and it'll only cause a backlash


----------



## Lily of the Valley (Sep 27, 2009)

FehrGroundRanch said:


> This is not what I want to do at all, I don't want anyone to feel guilty other than backyard breeders. I think you do have every right to own a well papered well conformed horse ( I do) And I'm not saying that EVERYONE has to rescue. However either people rescue those back yard foals or they get killed, simple as that. If we want to save these foals then it is our responsiblity to take them on. Should we have to? Hell no! People should just be more responsible, so that horse aren't being bred just to be killed.


It's not just backyard foals that need rescued. Plenty of well-conformed and well-papered horses need it, too. How many OTTBs end up at rescues or at slaughter? What about show horses that got injured and no one felt like taking care of? Or ones that just got old and no one wanted once they were no good for strenuous work? They're a huge percentage of rescue horses.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

RiddlesDarkAngel5 said:


> we need to educated people on proper breeding techniques, confirmation, and the different options available for their horse if it doesnt work out besides slaughter or abandonment.


Unfortunately many people not gonna listen to any education because "they know better" or "they granddad did it all his life" or something else equally silly. I run into that number of times and ANY attempts to educate just cause them going nuts.


----------



## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

Well, I've done the rescue thing. WORST HORSE EXPERIENCE OF MY LIFE. Mostly because the rescue that I got was from a "rescue" that just so happened to keep their horses 200 lbs underweight, had strangles, and lice. He was the most vicious horse I had ever seen. It made me very sad for him but man, was he mean. He literally tried to kill me several times. Luckily, he and his new MALE owner are very happy together

Does this mean that I won't do it again? No. But I will definitely do my homework a bit more.


Rescuing is NOT for everyone

I am going to be breeding my very nice TB mare to a sportpony stallion (Connemara) in later years, then if that baby comes out nicely, I might breed her to a light warmblood. No one can tell me otherwise because everyone of the experts that I know have said that she is a mare they would breed in a millisecond. She is definitely breeding material... later. haha.


----------



## RiddlesDarkAngel5 (Jun 2, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Unfortunately many people not gonna listen to any education because "they know better" or "they granddad did it all his life" or something else equally silly. I run into that number of times and ANY attempts to educate just cause them going nuts.


i have no doubt you run into that unfortunately. :?

i feel like maybe it would help if information about legitimate horse rescues was more readily available. i mean, you can find info on the internet, but i'd like to see more articles and ads for rescues in the big horse magazines like Equus and Horse Illustrated etc.


----------



## Lily of the Valley (Sep 27, 2009)

eventerdrew said:


> Well, I've done the rescue thing. WORST HORSE EXPERIENCE OF MY LIFE. Mostly because the rescue that I got was from a "rescue" that just so happened to keep their horses 200 lbs underweight, had strangles, and lice. He was the most vicious horse I had ever seen. It made me very sad for him but man, was he mean. He literally tried to kill me several times. Luckily, he and his new MALE owner are very happy together
> 
> Does this mean that I won't do it again? No. But I will definitely do my homework a bit more.
> 
> ...


Well, yeah, but that has nothing to do with rescuing. _Any_ horse you buy could be like that if you don't do your "homework" well enough. So, really, that's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand and is no reason that rescuing wouldn't be for everyone.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Lily of the Valley said:


> It's not just backyard foals that need rescued. Plenty of well-conformed and well-papered horses need it, too. How many OTTBs end up at rescues or at slaughter? What about show horses that got injured and no one felt like taking care of? Or ones that just got old and no one wanted once they were no good for strenuous work? They're a huge percentage of rescue horses.


Every horse needs to be rescued (or at least let be put in sleep peacefully). However people have different reasons to buy rather then rescue. For example I've NEVER seen breeds like Hanoverian or Frisian or Andalusian etc. at our local auctions. So if I really want to own that breed I have no choice but to buy it. 

I heard a story on my local forum, when the person rescued OTTB. She brought him from the horrible condition to really nice one just to find out that he's not suitable for what she wants to do (show jumping). She couldn't afford 2 horses, so she was looking for the good home for him asking back just the price she paid originally to rescue him (I believe $500 or so). I remember people at the local forum attacking her. I felt VERY sorry for her. I'm sure she was really hurt by those nasty responses.


----------



## Lily of the Valley (Sep 27, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Every horse needs to be rescued (or at least let be put in sleep peacefully). However people have different reasons to buy rather then rescue. For example I've NEVER seen breeds like Hanoverian or Frisian or Andalusian etc. at our local auctions. So if I really want to own that breed I have no choice but to buy it.
> 
> I heard a story on my local forum, when the person rescued OTTB. She brought him from the horrible condition to really nice one just to find out that he's not suitable for what she wants to do (show jumping). She couldn't afford 2 horses, so she was looking for the good home for him asking back just the price she paid originally to rescue him (I believe $500 or so). I remember people at the local forum attacking her. I felt VERY sorry for her. I'm sure she was really hurt by those nasty responses.


Before rescuing _or_ buying a horse, the prospective owner should make sure that the horse is suitable for what they want. Why do people treat rescuing and buying differently? They're the same thing (except one's usually cheaper). And, don't worry, she probably wasn't hurt. If she was, tough sh-t.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Lily of the Valley said:


> Before rescuing _or_ buying a horse, the prospective owner should make sure that the horse is suitable for what they want. Why do people treat rescuing and buying differently? They're the same thing (except one's usually cheaper). And, don't worry, she probably wasn't hurt. If she was, tough sh-t.


But HOW can you do the full vet check if you buy at the auction? Especially if the horse is in horrible condition (so you can't even ride it). It's just hard to accomplish (if possible at all). Frankly, I think she did the right thing: she gave him a 2nd chance. I've seen the pics and it'll be a great trail horse for someone.


----------



## Lily of the Valley (Sep 27, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> But HOW can you do the full vet check if you buy at the auction? Especially if the horse is in horrible condition (so you can't even ride it). It's just hard to accomplish (if possible at all). Frankly, I think she did the right thing: she gave him a 2nd chance. I've seen the pics and it'll be a great trail horse for someone.


Take someone knowledgeable, preferably a vet. It's not perfect, no, but it's helpful. Or she could have bought one from an actual rescue instead of at an auction, that way she could make a better decision. Auctions are best left to people who know exactly what they're looking for an how to find it.

I think she did the right thing, too, I'm just saying that one always has to be careful about buying a rescue if they're looking for something in particular.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Before rescuing _or_ buying a horse, the prospective owner should make sure that the horse is suitable for what they want. Why do people treat rescuing and buying differently? They're the same thing (except one's usually cheaper). And, don't worry, she probably wasn't hurt. If she was, tough sh-t.


I don't think this is quite true. Sure there will be exceptions either way, but generally, when buying, you also get some knowledge of the horses background; Medical, ridden, etc. You also get an idea of what the horse can do and is capable of doing. Many times rescue is pot-luck; You don't know where the horse is from, what it has been through. There may be a deep seated issue that only presents itself in certain situations...

Basically, buying is a much safer bet. I am willing to bet that there is a higher percentage of rescue horses with dangerous issues than there are for private sale.


----------



## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

actually, my topic does apply to rescuing. Not everyone can handle a horse with problems obviously. there are good rescue horses and there are ones that are challenging. Had I known that he was that vicious he never would have been in my posession. The rescue we got him from was very dishonest and has since been shut down because of complaints.

and please refrain from being rude. I have an opinion and I am going to say it whether you agree or not.


----------



## Lily of the Valley (Sep 27, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> I don't think this is quite true. Sure there will be exceptions either way, but generally, when buying, you also get some knowledge of the horses background; Medical, ridden, etc. You also get an idea of what the horse can do and is capable of doing. Many times rescue is pot-luck; You don't know where the horse is from, what it has been through. There may be a deep seated issue that only presents itself in certain situations...
> 
> Basically, buying is a much safer bet. I am willing to bet that there is a higher percentage of rescue horses with dangerous issues than there are for private sale.


Probably depends on the area. Here, buying is no different from what you described as rescuing. We don't know the background of several horses in our barn. In better, more horse-oriented places, yes, potential buyers could get more information. But I've looked at tons of rescue sites, and they seem to know quite a bit about their horses in general.


----------



## Lily of the Valley (Sep 27, 2009)

eventerdrew said:


> actually, my topic does apply to rescuing. Not everyone can handle a horse with problems obviously. there are good rescue horses and there are ones that are challenging. Had I known that he was that vicious he never would have been in my posession. The rescue we got him from was very dishonest and has since been shut down because of complaints.
> 
> and please refrain from being rude. I have an opinion and I am going to say it whether you agree or not.


Not all rescue horses have problems, and plenty of bought horses do. Again, speaking from experience and having known both, the number of horses with problems is equal for rescues and bought horses. A regular owner could have just as easily been equally dishonest about the exact same horse and the outcome would have been the same.

And I wasn't in the slightest bit rude to you. As I've said to others here, I couldn't agree more that you should express your opinion. But I may also express my own - disagreeing and pointing out how it's logically flawed doesn't mean I'm being rude or attacking you, however. The fact you feel the need to be so defensive is indicative of certain problems you should probably address in your next counseling session.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> The fact you feel the need to be so defensive is indicative of certain problems you should probably address in your next counseling session.


That *IS* rude.


----------



## Lily of the Valley (Sep 27, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> That *IS* rude.


Oh yes, that certainly was. I didn't say I wasn't being rude then; I said I wasn't rude originally, which I wasn't. But, hell, I've got no problem being rude when I feel like it.


----------



## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

to me, it was rude. Call me sensitive or tell me I need counseling but I'm sure I am not the only one who would've felt that way. And as I said blatantly in my last post, I KNOW that rescues don't always have problems. I just said that it wasn't for everybody because of the increased risk of getting a horse with mental barriers. And yes, I know that it could happen with any horse


----------



## Lily of the Valley (Sep 27, 2009)

eventerdrew said:


> to me, it was rude. Call me sensitive or tell me I need counseling but I'm sure I am not the only one who would've felt that way. And as I said blatantly in my last post, I KNOW that rescues don't always have problems. I just said that it wasn't for everybody because of the increased risk of getting a horse with mental barriers. And yes, I know that it could happen with any horse


Saying it's not relevant because it could happen with any horse is rude? Lol_wut_? :lol:

Those kinds of risks can be nearly eliminated if the proper steps are taken, just like it can be with buying a horse from someone.


----------



## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

if it clears my personal situation up, I did not pick the horse out; nor did I know he was coming until he landed in my barn. lol.


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

I think I agree with the majority of most of the people here.
I don't think it's the breeding industry that's the problem. I think it's those horrible backyard breeders, breeding that donkey looking mare to that strung out stallion to get an f*ucked up looking foal that they then sell for $200. 

THAT is a problem. 

I am a breeder. I raise purebred registered Arabians. Out of my 11 mares, I bred three this past summer for 2010. I may sound self righteous here, but most of my stock is out of National Champions on their second or third, or even first, generations and I think that I've got some **** good babies on the ground.
If I wanted to breed all 11 of my mares, I don't think anyone should tell me that I can or can't. Aside from a few minor conformation faults (one with too long pasterns, the other a little too cow hocked, etc) I think, and I am baised here I admit, that these are quality horses with breeding. Arabians or not.
They've got accomplised pedigrees, good conformation, and they are breed to do a job or win.

Those are the type of horses that I want to see on the market. 
Really, let's be honest. If we took out all those poor little foals that were bred by the horse-idiot neighbour next door, how many less horses would we have?
How many hundreds of foals would be saved from the auction mart?
Can you think how the horse market would improved if it were not overflowed with these uncorrect mongrels? 
Yeah. I know. 

I don't think a regulation of any sort would work; seriously, we can hardly run our countries or our own lives! But I have sort of entertained the idea of a breeding license. 
For example, in order to get a horse registered into certain books they need to pass an inspection. If we did that with all breeding stock, it'd sure cut back on backyard breeders if the foals can't be registered without licensed parents.

I know the first thing people will think of is cost. But hey, if we're paying for that inspection (which you will ultimately put on the price tag of the foal), at least we're not paying for a gangly disease ridden weanling who will be in a bag of dog food by the time it's a year and a half old.

As someone else said, I am also pro-slaughter. To be realistic, we need it. Why? Because people are STUIPD and INSIST on breeding these unwanted, horrible looking creatures. 
Now I realise that I may sound cruel and horrible, but really it's not MY fault. 
If you've got unpapered, conformationally defective, unproven stock, WHY breed it? Why not just spend a little extra to get something that's going to last because it's breed too, instead of supporting the market of already hundreds of unwanted horses?

I guess my point is this:
If you've got a working, proven breeding program that's producing correct and desired horses, please continue! THESE are the horses that are going to better the market.

If you really want to breed that awful looking mare and stallion just because you want to have the experiance of having a cute fuzzy foal because it's your choice... Well, be sure to give yourself a pat on the back for another one to the slaughter house. 

Please keep in mind that is only MY OPINION.


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Lily of the Valley said:


> It's not just backyard foals that need rescued. Plenty of well-conformed and well-papered horses need it, too. How many OTTBs end up at rescues or at slaughter? What about show horses that got injured and no one felt like taking care of? Or ones that just got old and no one wanted once they were no good for strenuous work? They're a huge percentage of rescue horses.


I think this is one point that may be raised by my previous post, and I just feel like replying anyway. 
You're right, it's not only backyard foals that end up in slaughter.
I noticed, though, you said that there are OTTB's and Show horses, neither of which are foals.
Because one thing, as a reptuable breeder and having foals of show quality, they will never land themselves in that position because you won't be asking $200.

Secondly, if there weren't any backyard foals in the slaughter house to begin with, all these horses that have been put there (OTTB's, the lame jumper, etc) would then get rescued.
THEN we have a selection of reliable, good horses to be rescued. Not crap. 

Thirdly, these OTTB's or old show horses that ended up in slaughter, they actually DID something and contributed to the horse world, other than dragging it down.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

eventerdrew said:


> if it clears my personal situation up, I did not pick the horse out; nor did I know he was coming until he landed in my barn. lol.


I agree sometime you just not even sure what you are getting while rescuing. It all depends on luck. And when you get something underweight at the auction even with the vet you know NOTHING about the attitude as the horse is too weak. 

I worked with the _*very *_underweight horse once. *Very laid back gelding.* At first.... But when I put all those pounds back on him he became the BEAST. He reared (up to the point he flipped over), he could take off or jump, basically he could kill the rider. In fact another person trying him out (with YEARS of experience and who broke mustangs) ended up in emergency room. He was SOMEWHAT tolerant about me I assume because I fed him and messed with him. Little later I found out he was hit in head badly while back, and looks like that contributed to his attitude. Personally I think he was mentally sick (from how he behaved and all), and when I found out that I stopped riding him (just fed him till I moved in other barn). Thankfully he was not MINE!


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

WSArabians said:


> But I have sort of entertained the idea of a breeding license. For example, in order to get a horse registered into certain books they need to pass an inspection. If we did that with all breeding stock, it'd sure cut back on backyard breeders if the foals can't be registered without licensed parents.


Those are regulations too IMO.  But I agree with the idea.


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

Perhaps there could be some organisation giving points and advices on what horses to breed.
And I mean an organisation that dosn't care if the horse is any kind of breed or so, but only judge on conformation (based on sound health, not specific looks for that or that breed) and temperament. It should be fairly cheap and each horse, both mares and stallions, would get a paper with some kind of license or whatnot, telling how good they'd be for breeding on. 
I'm not against cross breeding and I don't think all horses need to be bred for shows (partly because show horses are often more nervos/sensetive than what's good for a beginner or one who just want a nice trailhorse). Also purebreds could be welcome here, it wouldn't hurt to have someone checking the breed-standards on some of those either 

I guess my thought is that you'd get a way to get your horse judged without caring about ''snobism'' or plain show quality, but just health and soundness. And there wouldn't be any excuse like ''that or that breed assosiation won't give papers/say he's bad because he's a cross or he just doesn't look like they want - but he's a great horse'' when a posible buyer wants some feedback on their foals parents. And those who wants to buy can go after this grading..

I think that if it got through and people started to use it, it would at least give healthier foals. But that takes that this gets to be normal and that people (pretty much everyone both cross bred lovers and pure bred lovers) frown upon breeding with no grading or check on the horses as well. 

Like it is here, only that we also have the asosiations of each breed to set the standards, so any crosses no matter how great won't get any license. And it's changing here since it's now ok to breed on any stallion you want.


----------



## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

Zab, there is things like that. I've seen numerous "Breeding for the Best" clinics her, even attended one, guess how many other people did? Three? The cost of the class? $125 for 6 hours, lunch provided. 

Zab I agree 100% that every foal should not have to be out of a world champion. However I would like to see at least a half decent pedigree, great-excellent conformation, a good mind and perferablly broke, so you can see their aptitude in which ever discipline you are breeding for. 

*Lily*, you are probably one of the rudest people I have ever heard, I can't believe it and I truly feel sorry for you. I won't say anything further to you and will ingnor any and all posts from you. 

If your horses have to be inspected they aren't telling you that you can't breed horses, just that you can't breed poor quality, what's wrong with that? 

And BTW (IMHO) there is a much higher percentage of OTTB's and old show horses getting rescue over the foals that are headed straight to slaughter.

And to all you back yard breeders that might happen to read this, not only are you breeding your horses just to kill, but you are wasting money. Your registered QH foals are going for what? Twenty five to Seventy five dollars at the sale? What does it cost you to feed them? Paper them? You are losing money, not making it.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

FehrGroundRanch said:


> Twenty five to Seventy five dollars at the sale? What does it cost you to feed them? Paper them? You are losing money, not making it.


Actually that's what always made me wonder. If you keep a horse in good condition (meaning quality food, teeth, shots, farrier) it's not all that cheap. With the baby and all those special food and vet and stall and care for the baby (+ stud fee) it's much more expensive. So where the profit is coming from then if you don't sell the foal high $$ (unless you breed for yourself only, not for the profit)? :shock: I just don't get it. 

P.S. I'm not talking about the people who just "keep it natural". Like in my paint's place: mares and stud were all together and the owner only dropped (own made) hay once in while. So basically no expenses at all. :-|


----------



## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

But you still have the cost of the stallion report, DNA on the mare and stallion, and registering the foal. It adds up to more than $75 dollars a foal. Registered QH and Paint foals are selling for $75 and less at the sales here.


----------



## heyycutter (Sep 26, 2009)

horses such as PMU foals?
theres rescues that take them and sell then for reasonable prices too (these are ones who have been already started). i dont have one myself but a friend does, alot are percheron crosses also, and they tend to be great riding horses


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Ugh. I remember when they didn't want $4500 for a PMU foal. Now, it just seems to have gotten kind of insane. 


Some auction horses can turn out to be better than well bred horses.
Well bred horses may turn out to be better than auction horses.
However, I don't feel we should have some sort of responsibility to adopt other peoples mistakes. 
Yes I feel bad for these foals, and if I had unlimited resources, I'd get them. Unfortunatly, for most people they do not have the money or the ability to have less than their ideal horse. If you find your ideal horse in an auction yard, more power to you. But if you save up and pay to breed one or to buy one...I don't feel like you should have to feel guilty.


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

eventerdrew said:


> actually, my topic does apply to rescuing. *Not everyone can handle a horse with problems obviously. there are good rescue horses and there are ones that are challenging.* Had I known that he was that vicious he never would have been in my posession. The rescue we got him from was very dishonest and has since been shut down because of complaints.
> 
> and please refrain from being rude. I have an opinion and I am going to say it whether you agree or not.


I agree completely with this statement. I think it's a wonderful dream for people to rush to the local auctions and rescue facilities to save horses, but that is what it is, a dream. For one thing, when you rescue or buy from an auction, you don't know what you are going to get. There are reasons that horses end up in auctions, sometimes it's abuse or neglect, other times it's poor training or igorances that puts the horse into a bad position... sometimes it's a sweet horse wtih a kind owner that just needs to sell. But ALOT of times, it's a crazy horse that could seriously hurt someone. You have very dishonost sellers that not only will drug horses to hide issues but know a lot of neat little tricks so that when you get your horse home, you don't figure it out right away. (Kind of like a used car salesmen). 

I'm not saying with every horse that comes from a rescue or auction that there is going to be a problem. What I am saying is... like with breeding, the buyer needs to be educated. 

Even horses that were merely neglected pick up issues, especially feeding time issues. I am just saying that a rescue is not always the answer for every person. I have one that was beaten and neglected so he came w/ baggage but one of the things he came with was the need to have his teeth floated 2 to 3 times per year. Now, at 25 he only has a few teeth left but is unable to eat hay so I have extra expenses that I've had to consider. The care for a rescue horse sometimes ends up costing more monthly depending on the situation.

I love the idea of rescueing. I think it is commendable but it really needs to be an educated decision...


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Spastic_Dove said:


> But if you save up and pay to breed one or to buy one...I don't feel like you should have to feel guilty.


I don't feel guilty. I'm breeding horses that end up in either show or family homes.
The only ones who should feel guilty are the backyard breeders who breed auction mart foals. They are the ones, really, who are keeping the slaughter houses in booming condition.
It ain't us reptuable breeders or good horse owners.


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

WSArabians said:


> I don't feel guilty. I'm breeding horses that end up in either show or family homes.
> The only ones who should feel guilty are the backyard breeders who breed auction mart foals. They are the ones, really, who are keeping the slaughter houses in booming condition.
> It ain't us reptuable breeders or good horse owners.


Most of them will never feel guilty beacause to them... it's easy money.


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

FehrGroundRanch said:


> *Lily*, you are probably one of the rudest people I have ever heard, I can't believe it and I truly feel sorry for you. I won't say anything further to you and will ingnor any and all posts from you.
> [/qoute]
> 
> Touche!
> ...


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

No, no, I was speaking of the original post. WS, I wouldn't call you a backyard breeder. And no, I don't think any Backyard breeders feel guilty at all. 
What I meant was it shouldn't come down to "Why did you get your (worth breeding) mare bred when you could adopt/rescue!"
There's always a demand for good horses and I don't think you should sacrifice breeding a good horse because other people decide to breed nasties.


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

farmpony84 said:


> Most of them will never feel guilty beacause to them... it's easy money.


Yeah, I know.
That's the sad, sad side of it all. They DON'T care.
How could you are if you're breeding to sell it for meat?

I sure bet they'd think twice if there were human slaughter houses...


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Spastic_Dove said:


> No, no, I was speaking of the original post. WS, I wouldn't call you a backyard breeder. And no, I don't think any Backyard breeders feel guilty at all.
> What I meant was it shouldn't come down to "Why did you get your (worth breeding) mare bred when you could adopt/rescue!"
> There's always a demand for good horses and I don't think you should sacrifice breeding a good horse because other people decide to breed nasties.


You better not! :evil:
****!

No, no worries I understand exactly what you were saying. 
Sorry if my words confused, I didn't mean for it sound like you were implying I was a backyard breeder, I was just making a general comment.
I think you and I are both on the same page. 
We're all good.


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Haha alright, good! I should not be on here until I actually wake up anymore...


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

FehrGroundRanch said:


> But you still have the cost of the stallion report, DNA on the mare and stallion, and registering the foal. It adds up to more than $75 dollars a foal. Registered QH and Paint foals are selling for $75 and less at the sales here.


Yeah, I forgot about those. However some put up ads "CAN BE REGISTERED" (at new owner expense, obviously :lol: ).


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

If bleeding hearts hadn't shut down the slaughter industry in the US then they wouldn't have to go to Mexico or Canada. I think it is a shame the if I have a horse that is no longer viable for riding I have to dig a big hole and dump it in instead of using the animal to feed a human. Horses are no different than cows or pigs or sheep. They are animals. I would have no problem sending a horse to slaughter because they are not self aware animals and I know that in the US the handling of slaughter animals is very closely regulated. I know this from personal experience.


----------



## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

I have to agree with several of the other posters, especially as a rescuer myself with a nurse mare filly who is a rescue in my direct care (ever after hallelujah - a rescue story for her story).

that said, there is NOT an overabundance of quality horses being bred, there's an overabundance of mediocre horses being bred. i'm all for rescuing, however if everyone stopped breeding quality to ONLY rescue the best bloodlines would die out.

as for the TB racing industry, that is its own issue and something i feel the JC needs to get MUCH more involved in. there's no reason with DNA typing these days that horses can't be AI rather than live cover only, and furthermore there should be rules, laws and regulations around breeding. unlike the big WB registries, anyone can breed any TB to any TB for a JC registerable baby with no need for rank or criteria. if there was a way to license/approve stallions with the JC based on performance and race credentials, then i think there would be less indiscriminate breeding (or rather i should say less foals in general) and that alone would be a step in the right direction.


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> If bleeding hearts hadn't shut down the slaughter industry in the US then they wouldn't have to go to Mexico or Canada. I think it is a shame the if I have a horse that is no longer viable for riding I have to dig a big hole and dump it in instead of using the animal to feed a human. Horses are no different than cows or pigs or sheep. They are animals. I would have no problem sending a horse to slaughter because they are not self aware animals and I know that in the US the handling of slaughter animals is very closely regulated. I know this from personal experience.


Yeah, exactly.
You know, I'd love all these people who are against slaughter in the US to see just what horrors these horses have to go through because they wanted to end it.
The long trailer rides, no food, no water, packed in there like sardines. I know there is trailer regulations but hey, who cares? Especially in Mexico.
Think they get a shot or bolt in the head? No, most of these horses are knifed until they're paralyzed, THEN they get strung up.
Yup, good for you guys. You didn't END their suffering, you just prolonged it. 
GOOD JOB! 

*shakes head*


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I thought they were going to open one back up in the US. Did I read that wrong? I think closing the last 2 actually hurt the horse industry but that is an argument in itself....


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

farmpony84 said:


> I thought they were going to open one back up in the US. Did I read that wrong? I think closing the last 2 actually hurt the horse industry but that is an argument in itself....


You're right, we did sort of slant off topic.
I hope you're right, though! They need to open it up again.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

WSArabians said:


> Think they get a shot or *bolt in the head*?


Have you seen by any chance HOW they are killed by the bolt? I did see the video. Made me throw my breakfast right there. Unlike the cows horses are fast and the thing keeps knocking and knocking on horse - sometime in face, sometime somewhere else. Yes, Mexico (not sure about Canada) MUCH worse. But how it was done here in US is NOT acceptable either. I have nothing wrong with the medical shot or the gun shot done properly - it's fast and doesn't make them suffer. But bolt is just not designed to kill the horse.


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> Have you seen by any chance HOW they are killed by the bolt? I did see the video. Made me throw my breakfast right there. Unlike the cows horses are fast and the thing keeps knocking and knocking on horse - sometime in face, sometime somewhere else. Yes, Mexico (not sure about Canada) MUCH worse. But how it was done here in US is NOT acceptable either. I have nothing wrong with the medical shot or the gun shot done properly - it's fast and doesn't make them suffer. But bolt is just not designed to kill the horse.


You're right. Nothing about horse slaughter is pretty. Not a thing.
The bolt, I believe, was most designed to incapitate. Not very places use the bolt anymore, anyhow. Especially here. It's either doen by vet or by gun. I don't think Mexico really has any standards on slaughter.
It's one of those ugly things in life that just need to be.
But hey, it sure beats being left out in a field to starving for four months until death relieves them, doesn't it?


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

WSArabians said:


> *It's either doen by vet or by gun*. I don't think Mexico really has any standards on slaughter.
> It's one of those ugly things in life that just need to be.
> But hey, it sure beats being left out in a field to starving for four months until death relieves them, doesn't it?


Are you sure it was true for US? From all I heard bolt was the only opttion. As for Mexico don't even get started, I've seen those videos too (was able to go just less then min) and those people are just *******s (excuse my french!). 

As for starvation yes I agree it's awful, but still not a reason (at least for me) to end life in horror. Again, if it'll be done in humane way - I have nothing against the slaughter. Because those unwanted horses must go somewhere, and it'll be a case no matter what.


----------



## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> I really disagree with that. It really depends on what you mean by "rescue". Both my mares have papers (and not the worst one, the paint has several race champs in her pedigree, qh has Doc Bar and Poco Bueno). And I knew for sure the experience. Lol! However considering the situations I took them from when they were yearlings I'd still call it rescue (don't want to go into all details here). There is VERY high chance they would end up on meat truck, because they had no training, lots of attitude, no respect for people, and paint an abuse as a nice addition to the rest. I also know some people having rescues and getting places at the big shows. So it all depends really...


That's true, but I'm talking about rescues like the S.P.C.A who come in and rescue horses without a confirmation of their breed or w/e


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Sorry, I have no idea about anything in the US.
I had Canada written in there, but I must have deleted it when I re-wrote it! 
I don't know how the the US used to slaughter, but Canada relies on the gun or the vet. 

Point in case, we would hardly be having this discussion if there wasn't such an overflow of backyard breeders.

(This was in reply to Kitten_Val's last post!  )


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Agreed with kevinshorses and WSArabians.

I've always been pro slaughter. Obviously, I am disgusted with some of the methods used. But the solution is NOT to ban slaughter, it's to regulate it. I think it's absolutely sickening how someone can chow down on a hamburger and actually sit there and act self righteous to me about the slaughter of "poor wittle ponies". Horses are animals to, and let me tell you, the regulations on slaughtering them are a helluva lot stricter then what the cows, pigs and chickens suffer through.

Not that I'm giving up meat anytime soon, it's just the complete hypocricy of the arguement that ****es me off.

Like it or not, there is an industry for horse meat. And for the record, when done PROPERLY, the captive bolt is just as deadly as a bullet. It is not designed to "stun" it is designed to KILL. Canada has extremely strict regulations on their kill floors and require licensed veterinarians to be present. 99% of the videos you see are of illegal slaughter practices in Mexico anyway. It's not always going to be pretty, that's a part of death. But let me tell you, I'd rather live knowing that a horse suffered for 5 minutes before it was properly killed then have to face all the ignorant worthless sacks of garbage leaving these animals to starve and rot in a pasture. Death is a mercy.

Anyway, that was slightly off topic, but not really I don't think, it really pertains to the entire rescue situation. All we've done is create an even worse situation for these animals, so huge congrats anti-slaughter club. Maybe you should think about what the question is before you assume you know the answer.


----------



## ridesapaintedpony (Apr 14, 2009)

We hear the same argument with dog breeding. "There are so many dogs in shelters. Breeders should stop breeding until all the dogs in shelters find homes."

Noble, but not gonna happen. There will always be some idiot who doesn't watch their ***** in season and the ***** gets pregnant. Oops, more dogs in the shelter.

If the responsible breeders stop breeding, and let's face it they are the ones who obey these types of mandates not the idiots who should stop breeding, the breeds as we know them will cease to exist.

Do you honestly think the idiots care about temperament, conformation or breed type? Of course they don't. They only care about the $$$$.

Stating that breeders should stop breeding screams of the AR radicals since they use this argument also. It's just the first step for them to outlaw us having animals as pets altogether.


----------



## close2prfct (Mar 9, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Agreed with kevinshorses and WSArabians.
> 
> I've always been pro slaughter. Obviously, I am disgusted with some of the methods used. But the solution is NOT to ban slaughter, it's to regulate it. I think it's absolutely sickening how someone can chow down on a hamburger and actually sit there and act self righteous to me about the slaughter of "poor wittle ponies". Horses are animals to, and let me tell you, the regulations on slaughtering them are a helluva lot stricter then what the cows, pigs and chickens suffer through.
> 
> ...


I could not have said it better myself!!


----------



## Solon (May 11, 2008)

farmpony84 said:


> I think it should be my choice.


I agree. I think as long as people are being responsible about what they are breeding (quality not poor confirmation horses) it's their choice and their right to do so.

What I see a lot on this forum and others is people asking if they should breed their horse, get told it's not a good idea, then they throw a hissy fit. Or even if they don't ask if they should breed their horse, but they ask for ideas on what their horse should be bred too and they get mad if people tell them their horse isn't good enough conformation-wise. Any responsible horse person would point out if the horse wasn't good enough conformation wise to be bred.

There are a lot of rescues out there for certain, but not all of them fit the needs of what a person wants. And some people want to breed horses out of their own line. Nothing wrong with that at all, as long as they are responsible about what they are breeding.


----------



## Lily of the Valley (Sep 27, 2009)

WSArabians said:


> I think this is one point that may be raised by my previous post, and I just feel like replying anyway.
> You're right, it's not only backyard foals that end up in slaughter.
> I noticed, though, you said that there are OTTB's and Show horses, neither of which are foals.
> Because one thing, as a reptuable breeder and having foals of show quality, they will never land themselves in that position because you won't be asking $200.
> ...


Your first point makes no sense to me. Could be that I'm that in need of food, but I don't get what you're saying. Actually, second doesn't either to me. And I have no idea what you're getting at with the third. I can't tell if you're agreeing with me, disagreeing, or neither. I think I need to sleep. =/


FehrGroundRanch said:


> *Lily*, you are probably one of the rudest people I have ever heard, I can't believe it and I truly feel sorry for you. I won't say anything further to you and will ingnor any and all posts from you.


That hurts my pheelingz. 


CJ82Sky said:


> I have to agree with several of the other posters, especially as a rescuer myself with a nurse mare filly who is a rescue in my direct care (ever after hallelujah - a rescue story for her story).
> 
> that said, there is NOT an overabundance of quality horses being bred, there's an overabundance of mediocre horses being bred. i'm all for rescuing, however if everyone stopped breeding quality to ONLY rescue the best bloodlines would die out.
> 
> as for the TB racing industry, that is its own issue and something i feel the JC needs to get MUCH more involved in. there's no reason with DNA typing these days that horses can't be AI rather than live cover only, and furthermore there should be rules, laws and regulations around breeding. unlike the big WB registries, anyone can breed any TB to any TB for a JC registerable baby with no need for rank or criteria. if there was a way to license/approve stallions with the JC based on performance and race credentials, then i think there would be less indiscriminate breeding (or rather i should say less foals in general) and that alone would be a step in the right direction.


I entirely agree with you. And I'd elaborate, but I cbf.


----------



## Clementine (Sep 24, 2009)

Thanks for all of your responses.
I'm sorry that I have offended some of you. I did not mean to imply that there should be regulation on breeding, or that you should not be the one to decide whether or not to breed your own horses. But am I trying to make you feel guilty? Yes, a little. Don't try to deny the fact that if you breed horses, you are guilty. Guilty of adding to a problem where it could have been reduced. 

A common comment on this thread has been that I should be preaching to the TB racing industry. Sure, I could try, but would they listen? Probably not. If one person, out of the millions of people who go to races every year said they wouldn't be attending, what difference would that make to them? But there is the possibility that with time, we can come together and revolt, so to speak. If people stop watching, racing will, eventually, stop. In my opinion, racetracks need to be slowly shut down so that the ex-racehorses can be absorbed into the system without a single hoof going near a captive bolt.



> Then I'm against saving horses from slaughter. Unless it's a horse you happened to fall in love with or anything


That's a pretty wretched thing to say. All horses deserve life - and I personally don't think we have the right to take that away from them. What's more, most horses can also be loved - so, according to you, if they just aren't lucky enough to have found that person in time, they should go ahead and die?


----------



## Clementine (Sep 24, 2009)

> I think it's absolutely sickening how someone can chow down on a hamburger and actually sit there and act self righteous to me about the slaughter of "poor wittle ponies"


Just to let you know, I'm a Vegan. (For the benefit of some who may not know, this means that I do not eat meat (including chicken & fish - some people get confused about that), dairy products of any sort, or eggs.)


----------



## Lily of the Valley (Sep 27, 2009)

I have nothing against horse slaughter, as long as it's humane. I don't agree with killing anything unless it serves a real purpose (like food or protection), but suffering is never necessary or acceptable. But saving a horse from slaughter is never a bad thing. It's something that should definitely be done far more often.


----------



## Rowdyone (Sep 27, 2009)

I got to make a baby back in 1985. At the ripe old age of 16.

I showed his half-brother in Western Pleasure and Trail; his dad was a Reserve Grand Champion. My mare was registered and had good conformation. I did however lose her at the age of 13. My horse? We have done a couple of sorting events, and that is about it.

On the other hand, I wouldn't trade him for anything in this world, at the ripe old age of 24. 

I am failing to understand something here I guess. It is common then for backyard breeders not to be skilled in managing their own animals? I can't see my parents letting me make a baby if I hadn't had the ability to raise him up myself.

If they are breeding to make money, and they aren't, that circumstance will sort itself out... So I don't know how all these horses can end up in slaughter houses. Maybe I will have to read this thread again. 

Oh, and my mare and my very first quarter horse are buried in the pasture. I cannot imagine some one eating either one. No more than I can imagine someone eating my dog...


----------



## Joshie (Aug 26, 2008)

farmpony84 said:


> I think it should be my choice.
> 
> 
> I bred my mare. I have a wonderful baby out of her. He's a registered QH. I never had a horse with papers before. I wanted papers. I love my horse, and not just because he has papers. He's what I wanted. I could have adopted, I could have "saved" one from an auction, I wanted one with papers. Don't I have that right? Why should I feel guilty for wanting a well-bred papered horse? I offer a helping hand when I can, I even donate money. Shouldn't that be enough?


Of course it's your choice. But.....in today's market you can get a very well bred weanling (with papers) for less than the cost of breeding. I would NOT call that a rescue. I would call that a prudent use of my money. 

If your baby has papers then he's not the first horse you've had with papers. His momma would have to have papers for your boy to have them. 

It's always our choice. It just seems to make better sense in today's day and age, with this current economy and our over abundance of horses, to purchase a horse that's already here for less than the cost of breeding another.


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Lily of the Valley said:


> It's not just backyard foals that need rescued. Plenty of well-conformed and well-papered horses need it, too. How many OTTBs end up at rescues or at slaughter? What about show horses that got injured and no one felt like taking care of? Or ones that just got old and no one wanted once they were no good for strenuous work? They're a huge percentage of rescue horses.


Why not let someone eat them if nobody wants to keep them for riding? If people really wanted what was best for horses they would encourage slaughter plants in every state so that horses wouldn't have to be shipped 2000 miles to Canada or Mexico.


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Have you seen by any chance HOW they are killed by the bolt? I did see the video. Made me throw my breakfast right there. Unlike the cows horses are fast and the thing keeps knocking and knocking on horse - sometime in face, sometime somewhere else. Yes, Mexico (not sure about Canada) MUCH worse. But how it was done here in US is NOT acceptable either. I have nothing wrong with the medical shot or the gun shot done properly - it's fast and doesn't make them suffer. But bolt is just not designed to kill the horse.


Who made the video you saw? Do you think it was editd to show only the worst cases?Do you think the makers of the film had an agenda? I have seen horses slaughtered and the captive bolt is about the best way to do it. It's never pretty when any animal is slaughtered but that doesn't make it any less necessary.


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Solon said:


> I agree. I think as long as people are being responsible about what they are breeding (quality not poor confirmation horses) it's their choice and their right to do so..


Actually it's still thier choice and thier right even if they choose to not be responsible. That's whats great about living in a free country.


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Clementine said:


> Just to let you know, I'm a Vegan. (For the benefit of some who may not know, this means that I do not eat meat (including chicken & fish - some people get confused about that), dairy products of any sort, or eggs.)


That explains why your irrational! I think horses that are not usefull for riding or other purposes should be slaughtered far mor often than they are. If you don't want your horse going to feed someone when it gets too old to be useful then don't send it there but as for me I would like that option. As it stands right now people with your viewpoint have limited my options to the point that I can't in good conscience send a horse I think much of to slaughter. It is too far to ship them.


----------



## close2prfct (Mar 9, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Actually it's still thier choice and thier right even if they choose to not be responsible. That's whats great about living in a free country.


This is the part that so many seem to forget.
Whether they rescue, breed or find a horse under a rock it's their choice regardless of the quality of their horses, regardless of the economy, and regardless whether anyone else likes it.
Personally, I am not going to lose sleep over whether someone chooses to rescue or not.


----------



## Velvet (Dec 3, 2008)

Well, because we don't HAVE nurse mares here as far as I know.. (I'm in South Africa)...

That being said, I do agree with the overall theme of your query. Its like people who just breed and breed and breed cats or dogs. Personally, with dogs and cats and things like that, I would ALWAYS choose to get a rescue over a home-bred/petshop animal.

I certainly do NOT believe in the Mass production of horses either (backyard breeding) but from a competitive rider's point of view, rescue animals are usually just not suited for high-level competition. If I had a farm and a ton of money, I would GLADLY take in any poorly treated horse or pony and giving them a home for life...

But I can afford two horses...I have a LOVELY, wellbred mare who is foal to a stunning well-bred stallion. I am breeding the foal to keep as a competiton horse for myself later on.


----------



## Lily of the Valley (Sep 27, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Why not let someone eat them if nobody wants to keep them for riding? If people really wanted what was best for horses they would encourage slaughter plants in every state so that horses wouldn't have to be shipped 2000 miles to Canada or Mexico.


As I said, I have nothing against horse slaughter for human consumption. I'd like to try horse someday. But it's not a matter of _nobody_ wants to keep them for riding. Unless you're seriously saying that each and every horse has been taken to each and every rider in the US to see if they want it before being shipped to slaughter. Plenty of them are good horses that just haven't had the chance to meet someone who will really love them.


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Lily of the Valley said:


> Your first point makes no sense to me. Could be that I'm that in need of food, but I don't get what you're saying. Actually, second doesn't either to me. And I have no idea what you're getting at with the third. I can't tell if you're agreeing with me, disagreeing, or neither. I think I need to sleep.


My point?
Nobody is going to rescue that f*cked up backyard foal when there's a perfectly good old reining horse that your kids can safely ride.
Nobody is going to rescue that f*ucked up backyardfoal when there's a good OTTB for eventing.
Nobody is going to rescuse that f*ucked up backyard foal when that old ex cutting horse is showing your kid in Western Pleasure.

So why breed when it's just going for meat?


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Clementine said:


> Thanks for all of your responses.
> I'm sorry that I have offended some of you. I did not mean to imply that there should be regulation on breeding, or that you should not be the one to decide whether or not to breed your own horses. But am I trying to make you feel guilty? Yes, a little. Don't try to deny the fact that if you breed horses, you are guilty. Guilty of adding to a problem where it could have been reduced.
> 
> A common comment on this thread has been that I should be preaching to the TB racing industry. Sure, I could try, but would they listen? Probably not. If one person, out of the millions of people who go to races every year said they wouldn't be attending, what difference would that make to them? But there is the possibility that with time, we can come together and revolt, so to speak. If people stop watching, racing will, eventually, stop. In my opinion, racetracks need to be slowly shut down so that the ex-racehorses can be absorbed into the system without a single hoof going near a captive bolt.
> ...


You didn't offend me personally. In fact, I think this is a rather healthy and good discussion.

Did you succeed in making me feel guilty? Pfft. Absolutely not. Sorry.
I'm not contributing to those horses who end up lost and/or go straight to the meat pen so I have no worries.
I only feel sorry for the horses who are bred/owned by stupid people.

I do agree with you regarding TB racing. Or any horse racing. I think it's a dirty, horrible sport that pushes and wrecks too many horses. I'll never support the racing industry, but I don't see it getting shut down anytime soon. It brings in WAY too much revenue.



> That's a pretty wretched thing to say. All horses deserve life - and I personally don't think we have the right to take that away from them. What's more, most horses can also be loved - so, according to you, if they just aren't lucky enough to have found that person in time, they should go ahead and die?


Yes, exactly!
So WHY do these backyard breeders insist on breeding horrible foals when they are being bred strictly for the meat pen? Let them live for six months only? That's hardly a life worth living.


----------



## Lily of the Valley (Sep 27, 2009)

WSArabians said:


> My point?
> Nobody is going to rescue that f*cked up backyard foal when there's a perfectly good old reining horse that your kids can safely ride.
> Nobody is going to rescue that f*ucked up backyardfoal when there's a good OTTB for eventing.
> Nobody is going to rescuse that f*ucked up backyard foal when that old ex cutting horse is showing your kid in Western Pleasure.
> ...


Hell if I know why backyard breeders keep breeding. They seem to think it's a good idea.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

WSArabians said:


> Sorry, I have no idea about anything in the US.
> I had Canada written in there, but I must have deleted it when I re-wrote it!
> I don't know how the the US used to slaughter, but* Canada relies on the gun or the vet.*


Canada certainly has big respect from me then.  I also think may be it's not all that bad in Canada? (I am talking about overpopulation of the unwanted horses).


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Clementine said:


> Thanks for all of your responses.
> I'm sorry that I have offended some of you.


Of course, you didn't!  And in the end everyone can have own opinions on things.


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> Canada certainly has big respect from me then.  I also think may be it's not all that bad in Canada? (I am talking about overpopulation of the unwanted horses).


We do have very strict regulations for slaughter. As someone said, liscene vets are required to be duty on all kill floors. Slaughter horses can only be hauled for a certain amount of hours, must have access to food and water in holding pens, and only hauled in approved trailers with a limited number of horses.

Gererally speaking, it's not horrible. But it's not good.
There are a few breeders here, and I just saw an add on kijiji that blew my mind, who have hundreds of foals every year (this guy had 200 foals for sale). Why breed that many? I don't know. Stupid. 
He's selling them for $75-$100, which is more than he, hopefully, spent feeding that pregant mare. So WHY?

Last year we had that case of Axel something-or-other who starved 129 of his purebred Polish Arabians. Pure polish. Imported stock. Left them to starve. 31 of them died before vets and the SPCA interfered. The remaining 100 of them were adopted out. 
That's the biggest case we've had in several years, and you don't hear stuff like that happening here too often, which is good. 
But we still have our idiotic backyard breeders kicking around, and unfornately bad people will breed bad horses.


----------



## ridesapaintedpony (Apr 14, 2009)

Clementine said:


> Don't try to deny the fact that if you breed horses, you are guilty. Guilty of adding to a problem where it could have been reduced.


So what's worse? Breeding quality animals or spouting PETA and HSUS nonsense?


----------



## ridesapaintedpony (Apr 14, 2009)

Clementine said:


> Just to let you know, I'm a Vegan. (For the benefit of some who may not know, this means that I do not eat meat (including chicken & fish - some people get confused about that), dairy products of any sort, or eggs.)


Are you a member of PETA too? If not, you sure do spout off the same nonsense they do.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

WSArabians said:


> Last year we had that case of Axel something-or-other who starved 129 of his purebred Polish Arabians. Pure polish. Imported stock. Left them to starve. 31 of them died before vets and the SPCA interfered. The remaining 100 of them were adopted out.
> That's the biggest case we've had in several years, and you don't hear stuff like that happening here too often, which is good.
> But we still have our idiotic backyard breeders kicking around, and unfornately bad people will breed bad horses.


Yeah, I read that story. Disgusting... And those were very well bred horses as far as I remember. I'm glad they all found the homes.


----------



## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

ridesapaintedpony said:


> Are you a member of PETA too? If not, you sure do spout off the same nonsense they do.


**** 

Just like it's my choice to breed if I want, it's my choice to buy what I want I will also send my horse to whatever death I decide. If I want to send them away for human consumption when I'm done with them then I will, if I want them to live their lives out on the farm then I will. 

We need slaughter houses, the people that agreed to have the slaughter houses shut down put the horses thru even more suffering! Good on ya!


----------



## Lily of the Valley (Sep 27, 2009)

ridesapaintedpony said:


> So what's worse? Breeding quality animals or spouting PETA and HSUS nonsense?


What's worst of all is being so blinded by your hatred of certain groups that you can't even reasonably discuss or feel the way you would otherwise about such an important topic.


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Sounded like a pretty resonable question to me.


----------



## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

WSArabians said:


> Sounded like a pretty resonable question to me.


I agree, it was a pretty reasonable question. Whether you are in one of those groups could help everyone else to see where you get your perspective. I have read some of the propoganda put out by PETA, and some of it is just plain lies to get people emotionally to follow them and their ideals.


----------



## Lily of the Valley (Sep 27, 2009)

SmoothTrails said:


> I agree, it was a pretty reasonable question. Whether you are in one of those groups could help everyone else to see where you get your perspective. I have read some of the propoganda put out by PETA, and some of it is just plain lies to get people emotionally to follow them and their ideals.


Lies come from all sources, whether they're part of a group our not.


----------



## Clementine (Sep 24, 2009)

I personally don't think that the whole "if it isn't slaughtered, it will just suffer" argument is a good one. Because it is NOT acceptable to me that a horse that doesn't have a champion pedigree has to suffer. Some may view this as wishful thinking, but if everyone (or even just a large number of people in general) viewed it as unacceptable, then it would HAVE to change. 

Also, to the "if they're going to be dead, they might as well be food" argument - I find that to be ridiculous. We bury the dead of our own species in coffins so that they won't even be absorbed into the earth - it's called "respect for the dead". I don't see any reason it has to be for one creature alone.


----------



## Lily of the Valley (Sep 27, 2009)

Clementine said:


> Also, to the "if they're going to be dead, they might as well be food" argument - I find that to be ridiculous. We bury the dead of our own species in coffins so that they won't even be absorbed into the earth - it's called "respect for the dead". I don't see any reason it has to be for one creature alone.


I see no problem with eating anything that's dead. Although, sure, I'd probably find my emotional attachment to certain animals or people interfering with it, I don't see anything wrong with eating anything dead - even human. As far as I'm concerned, it's just not letting something go to waste, ya know?


----------



## close2prfct (Mar 9, 2009)

Lily of the Valley said:


> I see no problem with eating anything that's dead. Although, sure, I'd probably find my emotional attachment to certain animals or people interfering with it, I don't see anything wrong with eating anything dead - even human. As far as I'm concerned, it's just not letting something go to waste, ya know?


:shock::shock: Even Human?!?!:shock::shock:
Now that is beyond words


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Realistically, Canada is nowehere NEAR the production of horses as the US is. Obviously that's due to a drastic difference in population. You can't pick up a horse in my area for less then $400, and those are overproduced, albeit papered, stock horse weanlings. I paid $800 for my backyard bred unregistered Paint mare. In all actuality, backyard breeding is actually neccesary around here - we have a very small equine population, and due to the always ocurring natural cycle of things, it also means we have very little by way of "elite" breeding or showing going on. Most people paying big bucks for our Warmbloods are actually from out of province.

What we do have is a thriving number of people tiring of city living and looking into country living. You can make huge bucks on dead-broke old trail horses here - regardless of how fugly they are. Shay-la sold her pony mongrol foals as green-brokish semi-reliable trail horses at 3 years old. She got $2500 and $1500 for them. 

It really depends on the locale. Hence why I plan on breeding my Arab mare, the very few Arabs we do have for sale I'm just not interested in. Again though, we have a registered Arabian gelding who's competed in a handful of endurance rides selling for $4,000!

Obviously this is going to change tons as these city gone country people starting making their own fugly misfits and the population grows, but for now, it just shocks me when I hear of trained horses selling for $50 at auction!


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Lily of the Valley said:


> I see no problem with eating anything that's dead. Although, sure, I'd probably find my emotional attachment to certain animals or people interfering with it, I don't see anything wrong with eating anything dead - even human. As far as I'm concerned, it's just not letting something go to waste, ya know?


Agreed! I laugh so hard when people freak out about cannibalism - duh, humans are nothing but meat, same as animals. If I was stranded on a desert island, dang skippy I'd be looking for ways to kill whoever was with me and sustain myself! It's called survival - amazing what we'll do when it comes down to it.

Either way, it's ridiculous how we waste. When my grandpa was a boy, they had a mink farm. Anytime some farmer had a rogue horse or old knacker who couldn't work anymore, my grandpa and his brothers would bring the horse home, shoot it and grind it up for mink food. Supply and demand. Haha, they even fried up a horse steak once! He said he didn't much like it, very "sweet" tasting, not in a good way. That and likely the old work horses were so muscled up, the meat wasn't much palpatable anyway.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Agreed! I laugh so hard when people freak out about cannibalism - duh, humans are nothing but meat, same as animals.


Actually if I'm not mistaken you can't really eat DEAD one. You have to kill first and do whatever needs to be done. You can't just pick up the dead cow and start eating, because it may poison you. So apart from the desert island (ha-ha-ha!) you can't just go ahead and kill human to eat. Lol! 

Personally I would NOT be able to kill animal but I have no problem to eat meat (like pork and chicken). And I don't eat my own animals - they are part of the family whether you like it or not. But... Some cultures eat dogs, some horses, so roaches - it's the way they are and I don't see anything wrong with it (indians (from India  ) probably horrified on us eating beef too (even though I don't like/eat beef myself)). 

BTW, as for all this vegetarian thing (except when people do it for the health reasons only) some cultures consider the plants to be alive. So when one eat the carrot, someone should "kill" the carrot first (meaning pull it from the ground).


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Oh no, obviously! I'm pretty sure I'd die or get pretty dang sick anyway if I ate raw dead human :lol: But good point, we're flying to Cuba in January, maybe I should make it a point to learn how to make a fire out of sticks in case we crash! Nah, who am I kidding, someone is BOUND to have a lighter on board that survives!

*giggles* Ok, I'll stop being morbid now.


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Clementine said:


> I personally don't think that the whole "if it isn't slaughtered, it will just suffer" argument is a good one. Because it is NOT acceptable to me that a horse that doesn't have a champion pedigree has to suffer. Some may view this as wishful thinking, but if everyone (or even just a large number of people in general) viewed it as unacceptable, then it would HAVE to change.


You don't think that's a good point?! 
So tell me then, why is every horse rescue in the entire North American over flooded with abandoned horses?
Because those backyard breeders insisted on breeding, got stuck with what they produced, and when it became to much (because who KNEW it would cost several hundred dollars to raise a foal?!) they just up and left the horses. 

And no, if everyone thought it was unacceptable, it WOULD NOT change.
I can guarantee more people than not that think rape is unacceptable. It still happens.
Most people think murder is unacceptable. It still happens.

We're not viewing it as wishful thinking, it IS wishful thinking.



> Also, to the "if they're going to be dead, they might as well be food" argument - I find that to be ridiculous. We bury the dead of our own species in coffins so that they won't even be absorbed into the earth - it's called "respect for the dead". I don't see any reason it has to be for one creature alone.


You know, I absolutely adore my horses. There's not much I wouldn't do for them in this world. But come on, they are horses. If you compare them to your family members as having the same rights.. You're seriously mis-guided. 
Horses don't get buried in coffin's for a reason. 
Yes, they are spectacular animals. Yes, they have wonderful hearts and minds. Yes, they can improve our lives like no other animals. 
But to give them human crediability?
Come on, we can only mess with nature so much.


----------



## Lily of the Valley (Sep 27, 2009)

close2prfct said:


> :shock::shock: Even Human?!?!:shock::shock:
> Now that is beyond words


Meat is meat is meat. Once it's dead, that's all it is, regardless of its DNA.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Oh no, obviously! I'm pretty sure I'd die or get pretty dang sick anyway if I ate raw dead human :lol: But good point, *we're flying to Cuba in January*, maybe I should make it a point to learn how to make a fire out of sticks in case we crash! Nah, who am I kidding, someone is BOUND to have a lighter on board that survives!
> 
> *giggles* Ok, I'll stop being morbid now.


Just do NOT ask what you eat when you are in restaurant and you'll be good. :mrgreen: That was my experience from trip to Korea (although I double checked it's NOT a dog meat - I just can't imagine eating one).


----------



## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

I am all for slaughter if it's done in a *humane way* and is *better for the horse* than it's current condition is. Think about it this way:

An older horse was starving to death. Its owners neglected it, but by the time authorities found out and stepped in, the horse was already in agony, living in misery. So, instead of burying the horse and letting it decay because it would die anyway (sorry for the graphics), they killed it humanely and sent it to slaughter to become food for stray and neglected dogs.

Doesn't that sound humane? Don't take me wrong, I am all against inhumanity and cruelty to animals. But you have to understand that sometimes slaughter is the best option if done in a kind, humane way.


----------



## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

close2prfct said:


> :shock::shock: Even Human?!?!:shock::shock:
> Now that is beyond words


 
umm ya now im freaked out.


----------



## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

WSArabians said:


> You didn't offend me personally. In fact, I think this is a rather healthy and good discussion.
> 
> Did you succeed in making me feel guilty? Pfft. Absolutely not. Sorry.
> I'm not contributing to those horses who end up lost and/or go straight to the meat pen so I have no worries.
> ...


 
Agreed


----------



## bbbelle (Oct 4, 2009)

Let's face it most people don't have the skill set need to help a rescued horse. Most of them have issues weither it be mental or physical. 
Some rescues end up in the hands of newbies to the horse world. They have no clue how to deal with a well broke horse let alone a head case.

I have might of missed it but I did not see anyone list what goals breeding should be aiming for. 
1) conformation
2) temperment
3) salebilty ( can you regesiter the foal? This may not seem like a biggie to some, but life throws curves and this could mean finding a good home or being send to the kill pens )( This might even need to be first)
4) color. ( I only say this because I like paints and bred for color but this is fourth on my list)
All breeds have standards!!! 
BREED TO THE STANDARD!!!!
This go for all animals. Cat, dog, or horse.
The idiots that breed designer dogs need to be shot. There is no reason to create mutts. 

Just because you have a mare does not mean you should breed her. If you do hopefully what you breed is an improvement upon the mare and/or stallion.

Stallion owners need to be choosie about what mares they breed to. That foal is a reflection of their stallion and a reflection of their breeding program. I wouldnt want to breed my mare to a stallion where they let anything come thru the shed door and stood still long enough.

I could rant on but it does boil down to standards.

Please have them. Lot of issues wouldn't happen if standards were followed.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

As a matter of fact I LOVE *mutt *dogs and cats WAY over any pure breed...


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> The idiots that breed designer dogs need to be shot. There is no reason to create mutts.


Dogs are different. When done properly mixed breed dogs are generally healthier and more productive members of society than purebreds. Hybrid vigour and all that. Less genetic disorders, and less disease.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

wild_spot said:


> Dogs are different. *When done properly mixed breed dogs are generally healthier and more productive members of society than purebreds.* Hybrid vigour and all that. Less genetic disorders, and less disease.


Absolutely agree. I had number of mutts in my life people in fact were asking to buy from me (of course, I didn't sell friends). So while I still think horses have to be papered, I'm all for mutt dogs.


----------



## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

Hybrid vigor works the same way in most species of plants and animals, even horses, which is why certain cross-breeding tecniques can yield horses who are taller, hardier, etc. than either parent. 

However unlike "mutt" dogs who we are happy with as friendly pets (pretty low expectations, overall, LOL), most horses are (OK SHOULD be) bred for talent toward a discipline, or at the very least correct structure for riding or driving, good movement, trainable temperament, etc-- just being "bigger and hardier" is not enough of a reason to advocate any large-scale crossbreeding-- its just too hard to predict the inheritance of the wanted traits beyond what is influenced by the "hybrid vigor" effect (size, disease resistance, etc.) 

It also is a one-generation effect-- the first cross of animals/plants from unrelated lines yields hybrid vigor, but breeding the hybrids most often does not, and gives even less predictable results as far as heritable traits.

And for that first cross to yield hybrid vigor, the genetic material in the parents has to be significantly unrelated. It might be possible to see some hybridizing effects WITHIN a breed, if 2 or more different bloodlines within a breed are linebred to themselves and maintained seperately, then used to cross to each other. But this is a long and arduous proccess in horses, since each breeding results in a single foal per year, rather than litters 2x a year or more.

All of that said, sometimes crossing unrelated lines and/or breeds simply doesn't work. It is still safer breeding "like to like" and hoping for somethin you "like". LOL!

Mules are an obvious example of hybrid vigor that USUALLY works (If you like mules), since its not just a mating of unrelated lines within a species, but a cross of species-- and mules ARE often bigger, stronger, healthier, and "better" in some ways than either parent-- but since 99.9% of mules are sterile, the original horse/donkey cross has to be repeated every time another mule is desired, limiting their production to those who know how to breed mules... and want to.:lol:


----------



## Clementine (Sep 24, 2009)

> But come on, they are horses. If you compare them to your family members as having the same rights.. You're seriously mis-guided.


I am not misguided. Just someone who happens to view all living creatures as equals. And murder is always murder, no matter if the victim is a horse, or a human. And yes, slaughter is murder. Slaughter of all types is murder. That is why I'm a Vegan.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Slaughter of all types is murder.


 
Not one of _those_ types.

So a farmer who cuts a sheep’s throat because it has a broken leg and can’t walk, or is flyblown, is a murderer. 

Someone who shoots a horse because it is in immense pain and can’t be helped, is a murderer.

Someone who can’t afford expensive vet care for an animal so chooses to end their life instead of letting them live in pain is a murderer.

I think I’d rather be the murderer.

Have you spent any time on a working farm? Have you seen the devastation that can be caused by overpopulation? Have you seen animals starving because there isn’t enough feed?

There is NOT enough resources, natural or otherwise, to maintain every animal that exists, and definitely not every animal that *would* exist if we didn’t have slaughter.

When the vegan extremists can come up with a way to feed every animal in need, to subsidise vet costs so that everybody can afford them, to prevent disease and illness that necessitates slaughter, then maybe people will listen.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Just wanted to add, I am an avid animal lover. I have had pet sheep, cattle, dogs, cats, horses, chickens, etc. I don't like slaughter, but it IS a necessity, the way things are at the moment. I'm not talking exclusively about horses.


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm always curious to hear the solution from people who are so anti-slaughter. I hate slaughter. However killing a tick when you pull it off your horse (A living animal) is not on par with murdering a person. same goes for slaughter. It is a necessary evil. No one enjoys killing their horses, however sometimes it is necessary to slaughter or humanely put down an animal.


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I'm anti-slaughter... but I'm also pro-slaughter... I know that sounds silly but... I personally can not kill an animal. I can not squish a bug. BUT, I understand the need for it. I could tell my husband to take care of a spider or I could tell him to set a mouse trap... I probably could raise cattle and let him load them into a trailer and haul them away, but I could never put them in the trailer and haul them away.... I know it doesn't make sense, but it's the way it is....


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ I'm the same. I don't think I could kill anything. I can't even give a needle! But I am glad there are people who can, as while it is not nice to think about, it is needed.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Growing up on a farm, I learned very young the beauty of "murder". We raised all our animals by hand, and when butchering time came, they were shot and dressed. In a perfect world, we could all return to this extremely natural, humane and proper way of life. It's never bothered me - we have Filipino friends who often got their meat from us, and they say a prayer for every animal they kill. It is done cleanly, and they use every single part of the animal. It's beautiful to see they way they respect animals, even dead ones.

To be brutally frank though, I'm a realist to the extreme. I believe the value we put on human life is absolutely pathetic. The resources we waste trying to keep an 80 year old cancer patient alive is just ridiculous. The fact that suicide and assisted suicide is illegal makes me sick. Humans are just another population and we need to be controlled. I'm not saying start murdering people, I'm saying stop fighting so hard to keep old sick people alive. It's a waste - what the hell do we think is going to happen, they're going to get BETTER?

I feel the same way about animals. Doctoring minor sicknesses and injury is one thing, but spending millions of dollars to give a horse an artificial leg? Are you SERIOUS?! The money that could be going to put useable animals in home instead of wasting hundreds upon thousands of dollars trying to save the cripple is just beyond words to me. Do you actually believe your horse understands why you've confined him to a stall in a sling for the past six months to try and fix a shattered leg? Do you think he understands the endless pain he's in is for "the better good"? I cannot STAND how we place human value onto animals and justify what can only be called severe abuse in many cases with "I'M SAVING HIS PRECIOUS LIFE!"

My cat got hit by a car a few years back. He looked perfectly fine other then coughing up blood, yowling in a mangled voice and he was unable to use his back legs. We rushed him to the vet where she explained his insides were pretty mangled and they COULD rush him into surgery and attempt to save him. I said no freaking way, stick him with that needle NOW. There is no way I would have allowed my selfish grief to put that poor animal through months of severe agony just so I could "keep him". We don't do it for the animals, we do it for OURSELVES.

/end rant

I understand it's a touchy subject and I fully understand a lot of people don't agree, but that's my opinion. Life and death is a natural cycle, and it's only human emotion that puts this supreme value on life.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Agreed, 100%.


----------



## bbbelle (Oct 4, 2009)

The pure breed dog that have issue are usally the ones that were breed by a breeder that was after profit. They did not care what the end result was. NO certifation for eyes. hips, knees or so forth. 
Back yard breeders are the same.
I recently saw a friesian/ clyde cross. What is the benfit to either breed with this type of cross? It is just one more horse that unless some kind soul gives it a forever home, it is bounded for a kill pen. 
(the thing looks like it fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.)
As for the design dogs. nieghbors down the road have a labordoddle. She has skin issues and hip problems. How is this a healther dog?


----------



## bbbelle (Oct 4, 2009)

Are they? Tell that to the shelters that are overflowing with mutts and pure breds.
Start going thru dog cross and you will find that mutts still have the same issues as the breeds that they were cross with. 
Hip issues, joint problems, heart defects, skin issues, cancer.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ As I said in my post, THERE ARE ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS.

We have two mutts. ****zu/Maltese/Pomeranian. They are both healthy, and extremely smart. My one, Rambo, has the loyalty of a working breed, and is exceptionally quick at learning new tricks and obedience.

They are both great examples of great mutts, and I know MANY others.

There is research out there to show that responsible crosses produce dogs that are GENERALLY healthier than purebreds.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

We also have a purebred King Charles, she is deaf, half blind, hardly any teeth, arthritis, and has had about 3 strokes.

We also have a purebred Kelpie who is deaf, going blind, has an enlarged heart and an irregular heartbeat. Both bred by responsible breeders.


----------



## bbbelle (Oct 4, 2009)

As for half blind, hardly any teeth, arthritis, and has had about 3 strokes.
these are a result of age not genetics. 
I would ask what are you feeding her, what type of dental care have you gotten for her?


----------



## bbbelle (Oct 4, 2009)

I have never heard of the Kelpie. So I google it. What do you know they also have a bunch of health issues related to genetics.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ And what do you know, they are purebred. And actually relatively free of genetic issues compared to alot of other breeds.

Yep, those are age issues, but also general health. Not all dogs go deaf, not all get arthritis, not all get strokes. I beleive King Charles are a very 'delicate' breed, prone to a lot of illness and disease. She has had excellent vet/dental care throughout her life, and is fed an all dry diet to help maintain the teeth she has left.


----------



## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

I have not read all of this thread, but did want to comment on nursemare foals since we have one. Our very first one we adopted, we lost within a couple days due to a foal pneumonia that went through the whole group. Vet was out a good portion of the night when he came down with it and he was gone the next day. Very quick and heartbreaking.

The rescue offered us a 2nd one. This guy seemed better, but he also came down with the pneumonia. Again, our vet didn't think he would survive, but thankfully he did and he is now my husband's horse - Apache, and a big 4 year old. (You can see photos in my barn). The farm these foals came from told the rescue that they did have the colostrum, but two different vets said they most likely did not, or not enough of it. 

It was a very heartbreaking and stressful situation. Doesn't even touch on the hours upon hours spend bucket feeding every couple hours, etc. If someone really wants to adopt one of these foals - I would support them in their decision, but I would NEVER try to convince someone to take one of these if they are not up for it. Its a huge commitment over an already weaned foal.

Plus a lot of nursemare foals do not have TB blood in them. A lot of them I have seen here in KY did not. Many farms have their own studs and unless they have an arrangement that part of the fee includes the mare being bred back, they use their own stud - usually a walker or spotted saddle or similar such breed. Our Apache is believed to be spotted saddle X belgian.

Finally - talk about horrible conformation. Apache will never be built for anything better than a leisurely trail ride. He is the perfect horse for my husband, but if someone wanted a performance horse - I would tell them to go look for a well bred animal or be very careful on their foal selection from the nursemare farm.

While I am happy to have Apache, I will never chose that route to go through again to adopt a horse.


----------



## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Clementine said:


> I am not misguided. Just someone who happens to view all living creatures as equals. And murder is always murder, no matter if the victim is a horse, or a human. And yes, slaughter is murder. Slaughter of all types is murder. That is why I'm a Vegan.


 
I totally agree with the living creatures being equal part. As for the Vegan......if no one ate meat, there would be overpopulation of animals


----------



## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

bbbelle said:


> As for half blind, hardly any teeth, arthritis, and has had about 3 strokes.
> these are a result of age not genetics.
> I would ask what are you feeding her, what type of dental care have you gotten for her?


 
I would think she'd be giving all the dogs the same treatment. The other dogs are healthy, right? As for age....I once had 2 dogs, sisters from the same litter, black labs. they were my best friends until they died when they were 16 years old. That's old for a dog, especially such a large dog. One was perfectly healthy, the other wasn't....when the unhealthy one died, the healthy one we put to sleep because she was depressed at having lost her sister. It really depends


----------



## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

*Crossing dog breeds leads to stronger, healthier dogs.*


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

bbbelle said:


> As for half blind, hardly any teeth, arthritis, and has had about 3 strokes.
> these are a result of age not genetics.
> I would ask what are you feeding her, what type of dental care have you gotten for her?


Have you bothered doing ANY research before you start flipping off about things you obviously know little about? The King Charles breed is almost at the centre for controversy due to the extreme genetic defects they suffer after years upon years of inbreeding.

PUREBRED dogs are not the problem. The issue is that in order to gain that purebred status from years back, constant inbreeding was done which has resulted in virtually every purebred breed of dog having an entire myriad of issues. Go do some research on genetics - by crossbreeding, you are making a hearty attempt to weed out these genetic defects instead of compounding them by breeding to the exact same type of animal exposed to the genetic issues. It has become virtually impossible to breed two individuals together that are not in some form related in their ancestory in striving for purebred status.

I cannot stand people who preach about purebreds. History shows us time and time again, regardless of species, the severe impacts of purebred breeding due to extreme inbreeding. It's common freaking sense. Spending generations breeding daughter to father and brother to sister is obviously only compounding the creation of genetic defects. Crossbreeds are CONSISTENTLY stronger and heartier due to the introduction of new blood. 

Nobody is saying this makes them infallible, what they're saying is that it's been blatantly obvious that it creates stronger and more stable individuals by getting away from the lines causing the genetic deformities.


----------



## Kiara (Aug 27, 2008)

Just wanted to mention: Cross-breeding can give you dogs that don't have genetic problems, but it can just as well give you dogs that have the genetic problems of both breeds used. Genetic health testing is crucial right there. Inbreeding is obviously a bad idea, but cross-breeding still needs to be done responsibly. I would also look more into working lines, as they are usually healthier as they are used for work and therefore need some health. I don't say it's absolute - it is by no means. The bottom line is cross breeding or "pure" breeding has to be done responsibly to avoid all the issue we sadly have nowadays.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Very good point Kiara. I'm definately not saying avoid purebreds - I'm saying anyone who fails to see the benefits of proper and responsible crossbreeding doesn't know much about genetics. Obviously, this same attention to detail has to be used when breeding both pure and part. So many people fail to realize this and it's just frustrating!


----------



## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> That explains why your irrational! I think horses that are not usefull for riding or other purposes should be slaughtered far mor often than they are. If you don't want your horse going to feed someone when it gets too old to be useful then don't send it there but as for me I would like that option. As it stands right now people with your viewpoint have limited my options to the point that I can't in good conscience send a horse I think much of to slaughter. It is too far to ship them.


How can you say that because a person is vegan, they are irrational? You seem to have a very biased opinion about all of this. Look at it this way: I don't find you useful to my hobbies, but that gives me absolutely no right to decide that you should be shipped off in a crowded metal bin, killed, and then skinned. This is the same thing for a horse. Just because they aren't useful to your entertainment, doesn't mean they should die. 

I believe that a) a foal should have parents that have healthy conformation, good personalities, be in good condition, and have proven their riding talent, and the foal must have very good training. The breeder must also know what they plan to do with the foal, either selling it or keeping it. If it is being sold, you must have even higher standards of what you are creating.
b) There is no need for a slaughterhouse for horses, it is a waste of money and materials as well as uncivil. If the horse needs to be killed for any reason (not because you are too lazy to try to sell the horse, because they have a serious medical condition etc) then you can ask your vet to euthanize him. If that is not an option for you, you can find an experienced gunmen to shoot him in the forehead, giving him a quick painless death.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Have you bothered doing ANY research before you start flipping off about things you obviously know little about? *The King Charles breed is almost at the centre for controversy due to the extreme genetic defects they suffer after years upon years of inbreeding.
> *
> PUREBRED dogs are not the problem. The issue is that in order to gain that purebred status from years back, constant inbreeding was done which has resulted in virtually every purebred breed of dog having an entire myriad of issues. Go do some research on genetics - by crossbreeding, you are making a hearty attempt to weed out these genetic defects instead of compounding them by breeding to the exact same type of animal exposed to the genetic issues. It has become virtually impossible to breed two individuals together that are not in some form related in their ancestory in striving for purebred status.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you, thank you, thank you. You said that in such better words than I could have!


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

There's an absolutely spectacular documentary in a series on YouTube. It was aired on TV and for the life of me I can't find it now, but I was spellbound. It's broken up on YouTube into like seven seperate videos, but it pretty much focuses on the King Charles as the poster dog for what happens when idiots get obsessive about purebred breeding at all costs. It just disturbed the ever loving crap out of me - the whole documentary is about what several purebred breeds USED to look like and what we've turned them into in our obsession to "perfect" everything in some twisted human way. If I find it I'll post it.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> I would think she'd be giving all the dogs the same treatment. The other dogs are healthy, right?


Yes, definately. We have 8 dogs, and the other 6 are healthy as can be.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Found it! Absolutely enthralling, I highly suggest people watch the entire series. Just follow the parts off the first one.

Pedigree Dogs Exposed - Part 1


----------



## Kiara (Aug 27, 2008)

Yes, that documentary is eye opening, just note: It is quite horrifying in some parts, so be prepared. I skipped a few parts (the boxer having a seizure...).

We need more responsible breeding with an actual long-sighted view on breeds.


----------



## bbbelle (Oct 4, 2009)

It boils down to responsible breeding. Breeds that have issues weither it be dog or horse were not bred for the betterment of the breed. 
It was done by breeders after profit as the end game not for improvement of the breed.

I will go for the pure breeds but I will also do my research and make sure that what ever animal I buy has all the vet clearances that are need. 
Also I will only buy from responsible breeders.

People need to buy the best that they can afford and not breed just because they have a female and would like a puppy or a foal. They should take time to find the stud that best fits with their ***** or mare.


----------



## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

Just a quick clarification--Inbreeding/purebreeding does not CREATE genetic defects-- defects are most often caused by random mutations and exist in most populations of living things. Genes come in pairs, and one of each pair comes from each parent. Many defects require that an organism inherits a defective copy of a gene from each parent for that defect to be fully expressed. (Recessive or incomplete dominant defects.) 

What happens in inbreeding/purebreeding is that it is more likely that animals with one copy of a defective gene inherited from like ancestry will get bred together, and the chances of the defect being expressed by their offspring getting two copies becomes greater.

Said a different way-- say my mutt is a Lab/Weimereiner cross. He might have one copy of every recessive defect found in Labs, and he might also have one copy of every recessive defect found in Weims. But if none of the defects "make pairs" he will not suffer from the defects. But breed him to another dog with one or two copies of any of the same defects-- and he could sire puppies with as many defects as either purebred breed he has in him. 

Because defective genes in "mutts" are often so randomly dispersed and would usually appear in singles more often than pairs, and because people seldom make a breeding program with a "mutt", there are very few people who own a mutt who would ever know what is lurking "in there".

If people started breeding mutts together there could be some very unpleasant and unexpected surprises as defective genes combined, and it would be extrmely difficult to track or test for any of these defects in a mutt because the source might be totally unknown-- whereas in purebreeds, people usually know what exists and breed-specific tests have been developed, so they can test for it, track it, and decide how to deal with it.

Some purebred breeds are extremely defect free, even after generations of inbreeding. As was mentioned, it is usually working breeds, or working lines within a breed, because defects hinder working and are culled out either by nature or the breeder/owner.

Continued inbreeding eventually concentrates ALL gene pairs toward homozygosity, so it can be a poweful took for predictable reproduction of strong desirable traits, as well as away to "expose" weaknesses-- the key is when weaknesses are exposed, they should be eliminated and not bred on, or at least tracked and their reproduction controlled (depending on the severity).


----------



## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

Sorry guys, but poorly bred purebred + poorly bred purebred = poorly bred mutt

Hybrid "vigor" is a myth. Designer breeds are just cash in the pocket of BYB's and puppy mills


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Hybrid "vigor" is a myth.


Then there seems to be a lot of conclusive scientific evidence based on a myth...

My puppy was bred from a maltese/****zu and a maltese/pomeranian. Both designer dogs. He is healthy, happy, has the most personality I have ever seen in a dig, and has loyalty almost on par with my Kelpie (Kelpies are known for their loyalty to one person).


----------



## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>>> Hybrid "vigor" is a myth. Designer breeds are just cash in the pocket of BYB's and puppy mills_ 

Hybrid vigor is absolutely NOT a myth-- but it is often erroniously defined, poorly understood, and cited as an excuse to breed for fads. See my previous post-- also check out these links--
Heterosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (shorter simpler version)
Hybrid Vigor - Heterosis (more technical examples)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

What IS a myth is that when dogs or horses (or any other species) are cross bred, hybrid vigor will always or even usually be the result. Hybrid vigor CAN result from crossbreeding, but like any other breeding practice, optimal results come from well the researched mating of well chosen parents, practiced by serious breeders who are dedicated to improving the breed/species and are willing and able to use their breeding tools properly and responsibly.


----------



## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

^great post

Sorry, should have elaborated. Many people think crossing any two dogs means they have "hybrid vigor" Truth is, badly bred dogs make badly bred dogs, "hybrids", mutts, or purebreds. I don't care if people want to breed mutts, but ANY dog should be tested for hips, thyroid, elbows, eyes, whatever their breed suffers from, have at least good confo and/or proven to be a great working dog with the confo and temperment/work drive for their job.

A "schnoodle" from a BYB is not healthier then a poodle from a BYB.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ I don't recall anyone saying it would be.


----------



## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

ok guys cool it. we're getting snippy


----------



## Velvet (Dec 3, 2008)

Personally I have no problems with crossbreed horses...but that is a VERY different thing to a POORLY bred horse...

If a really GOOD anglo arab with good conformation and temperament etc is bred to an equally good paint (for example) then the resulting foal has a reasonably good chance of being good quality.

What I don't agree with is an animal with TERRIBLE conformation and temperament being bred to an equally bad animal resulting in an animal who is REALLY badly conformed and not good for anything useful.

In other words.. 

Good mutt + Good mutt = Good mutt = NO PROBLEM
Bad mutt + bad mutt = BAD MUTT = HUGE problem!!!

Its more of a conformation and temperament thing than an actual BREED thing.


----------



## Susan Crumrine (Oct 5, 2009)

I bred myself two walkaloosa's this year. Carefully. I now have two colored, gaited, and lovely fillies. But I bred these two for my family. I don't breed horses as a rule, I can buy a nice, healthy, two year old and train it for a lot less money than I can breed, stud fees, mare care, vet bill, two years of raising a colt. Then you don't know what you will get.

My boss lady bred a stakes winning mare, to INVASOR who won the Dubai world cup, and the foal had a rear limb deformity.

You never know, just breed the best to the best and hope for the best.....


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I breed b/c those type foals would not suit my needs. The price to buy what I breed is more then what it cost to breed for the same type and quality of foal. Now if I was just looking for foal then I might be able to find one at a rescue or such that would work but not for what I do and breed for.


----------



## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

I love cross-bred dogs.....never owned a cross-bred horse though. I've owned 9 horses, though, and just bred my miniature to my 10hh Welsh stally again....the first foal they had together was born with a breathing genoformity and died right away....Now, just to clarify, their foal will NEVER end up in the meat market. We bred them knowing that the foal would stay with us until it died, like every other horse we've ever owned. So back to the cross-bred horses...it's a completely different thing than breeding 'cockapoodles' or 'pointsetter', etc. dogs.


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

No it's not. They are mutts. Even more so with dogs. I can understand some crosses with horses like the WB and such. I can not understand it with dogs. There are other breeds that can fill what these designer dogs are doing and not making more mutts. There is no need to cross breed dogs. Out side of excepted crosses like TB to QH and the WB type horse I am very much against cross breeding grade horses. I do not care how good or nice they might be. The next generation in unknown as is any genetic deffects. There will always be anouther grade horse or even a registered one to takes its place. 

I also do not believe that you need to be breeding for a foal that you can not even get 5 times the stud fee for. Most seem to go for less then a $1K. If you can not get at least that or more for a foal. You really need to be rethining your breeding choises and I do not care if you plan on keeping the foal for life. Things happend and that could change. Horses b/c of their size and potential life spane need to have an out if something happens and yes things do happen. Just aks my freinds husband who is not carring for his wife horse. If something happens to him she comes here. What if.............


----------



## TripleDStables (Oct 11, 2009)

I didn't bother to read this whole thread but all I have to say is this:

You aren't going to find a registered good minded sound AQHA show prospect in a feed lot... It just doesn't happen that way. I'm not going to find my next reining prospect at a slaughter house.

People who rescue usually only want a backyard pet.


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

TripleDStables said:


> You aren't going to find a registered good minded sound AQHA show prospect in a feed lot... It just doesn't happen that way.


Really? I have. And horses with show pasts.


----------



## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

people who rescue COULD be looking for a backyard pet. Sometimes...actually most of the time...people who rescue can make very nice riding and show horses out of them


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

But at what level??? With the cost of training I am not going to go pick out a prospect from a feed lot or a rescue. The chances of finding a true prospect that ways are less then getting struck by lightning. Could I find a nice horse to show at a local level show?? Yes I know I could. I might even find one who has the ability and training to perform at a low level at what I do. However to find my next prospect that way would be next to impossible and I would have quite a bit into that prospect before I would really know. I am better off breeding for my next prospect. At least that way I know what I am getting.


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

No, if you were looking for a show prospect, you wouldn't go to an auction or adoption place because the horse is there for a reason and probably has some sort of issue. 

However those horses are there. It's not where you would go if you were looking for a show mount, because there are too many other variables, but I did want to point out you can find a **** good horse at those auctions. Any horse can fall into crappy circumstances.


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Yes the can and do. This is why I am opposed to breeding just to have a baby or to replace that special mare or breeding mares or stallions who have never at the very very least been trained and worked. If not shown. If you can not ride the sire and dam the chances of riding the resulting foal are slime to non. There is nothing wrong with having horses to just ride. Just b/c that favorite mount is sweet dose not make her breeding material. There are plenty of nice horses that need homes that will be just as sweet and work just as well. Now if you have a very speicfic goal in mind and the sire and dam are both very nice and at the very least trained and used then that is a bit different.


----------



## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Read the book Riding Lessons by Sara Gruen. It's really emotional.....a horse book, obviously, about an Olympic show horse who's brother ended up at slaughter....was saved by a rescue etc etc etc it gives you s new perspective


----------



## deineria (Mar 22, 2009)

I'm surprised at the idea that horse have a problem and that is why they are at rescues. . .Honestly, we have a huge adoption program here in WV that often has show horses that ended up without anyone to care for them or for sale cheaply and some fine breeding stock. It is called Crossed Sabers in West Union, WV. 
You will not get $20k horses at these places, but you will get horses that would bring $5k or more in the right economy, and some have the training they need already - I think most people just do not know what caliber of horse you can get at rescues, but to be fair, many are just nice trail horses and many are beyond their useful time.
Our gelding, Happy, was a slaughter rescue, and he could be trained in nearly anything and do well, I feel, but certainly, in his case, not on anything but a local state level. He is sound and something to look at!
I think breeders do somewhat owe the type of animals they raise a "give back" by doing some rescue type work. I don't know how one can feel good about putting desirable animals out there and not helping those animals that someone did not want anything longer. . .Just like we expect very wealthy people like Bill Gates to give back because of how well he has done to charities, I think it is fair to expect breeders to give back and help a horse in need. 
I do not see how anyone who has been to an auction could not feel the same. 
I do both. I have rescues and breed SE and Non SE Arabs.

Hey, I am also a 14 yr vegetarian for animal right reasons, but I am NOT a foolish activist. Humans and children's needs are far more important, and I do not regard my animals as people - I even have "outside only" dogs - lol, but I abide by the scripture that a righteous person in kind to their animals 

We tell people of all ethnic backgrounds and of all classes they are all equal and worth something and have a talent in something, are as good as everyone else, and I think it only just to feel that all horses deserve a good home without regard to what they have been and are worth or what their breeding is.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

TripleDStables said:


> You aren't going to find a registered good minded sound AQHA show prospect in a feed lot... It just doesn't happen that way. I'm not going to find my next reining prospect at a slaughter house.


That's not true for sure. I've seen horses with the great records and/or pedigree on our local auction. Including youngsters. Not all that often, of course, but they are there on some days.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

TripleDStables said:


> I didn't bother to read this whole thread but all I have to say is this:
> 
> You aren't going to find a registered good minded sound AQHA show prospect in a feed lot... It just doesn't happen that way. I'm not going to find my next reining prospect at a slaughter house.
> 
> People who rescue usually only want a backyard pet.


I really have to say, as much as I may have seemed to lean the other way, that is absolutely the most uneducated load of hogwash I've ever heard in my life. Do you have ANY wordly idea how many champion Thoroughbreds end up in a slaughter house? How many well bred, registered and pedigreed stock horse foals end up there because of over breeding? Do you even READ auction reports? Due to the economy, it is NOT only garbage horses ending up at auction - the well bred and registered crowd can wind up there JUST as easily if the supply and demand does not balance.

And in keeping with that vein, maybe you should look into how many world class show jumpers have been fished out of fields for $400.

Granted, there IS a "typical" crowd that's going to make up a bigger percentage of a feedlot group or bottom barrel auction group. But it's pretty crazy how cheap you can pick up a well bred AND well trained horse these days. Nobody is saying you should avoid breeding a well bred reiner instead of spending the next six months traipsing lots in hopes of finding a miracle, but your statement is absolutely and utterly untrue.


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

The problem with most rescues is that IF they have the horses papers they will not give them to you. They will not allow you to sell the horse if you out grow it or want to get anouther. So you put all the time, money, and effort into getting a horse trained and back into shape, things that makes them marketable and desirable but them you have to either keep them or give them back. To me right there it is a deal breaker. 

As for auctions. That can vary. Depending on location and type of sale you can find a nice horse. However again a lot go through with out papers for what ever reason. You can get lucking but that is not the norm.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Hey, I am also a 14 yr vegetarian for animal right reasons, but I am NOT a foolish activist. Humans and children's needs are far more important, and I do not regard my animals as people - I even have "outside only" dogs - lol, but I abide by the scripture that a righteous person in kind to their animals


Amen for a vegetarian who is sane and sees reason!


----------



## TripleDStables (Oct 11, 2009)

You aren't going to find AQHA registered NRHA prospects rarely... if ever.

Thoroughbreds are probably one of the most mass produced animals besides cows... they are easy to find. Racing does that... Am I talking about thoroughbreds? No.

Jumpers? Its easy to find a horse with the right conformation and will to jump. Also, Jumping competitions aren't usually breed specific, its judged on you and the horse. Am I talking about jumping? No.

I'm going along the lines of Spastic_Dove and nrhareiner here. I just didn't word it as friendly because well... its the truth. 

I rather breed my qualified mare to a stallion that compliments her. Pay all the fees and care for my mare properly. Take care of the foal and raise it right and train it the way I see fit. 

I like to know the history of the horse. I don't want to take in a bunch of other variables. Was it abused? Was it injured? Sick? Pedigree? Poor training? Its better to know. 

I'm actually fairly educated. But I can't feel bad and try to save all the horses. Its part of the industry and its not going to end. I love my horses dearly. I take care of the ones I have. And, I make sure they're good quality. Thats all.


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

wild_spot said:


> We also have a purebred King Charles, she is deaf, half blind, hardly any teeth, arthritis, and has had about 3 strokes.
> 
> We also have a purebred Kelpie who is deaf, going blind, has an enlarged heart and an irregular heartbeat. Both bred by responsible breeders.


Hmm.

I have a purebred German Shephard with no health issues. Healthy as a horse.
I also have two purebred registered Chihauhau's. Same thing.

Both bred by responsible breeders.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Both of those dogs were bred by responsible breeders, also. We travelled a few hours to get the King Charles we wanted. The Kelpie was bred by a very experienced breeder of working Kelpies, and we have another dog bred by him who doesn't have the same issues.

Trust me, we did our research. Especially for a working Kelpie, it was tragic the day dad learned about his problems. Dad loves that dog like nothing else. And that dog loves to work, but now he can't.


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

I know they were; I read your whole post.

My point was that not all purebreds are bred to be screwed up in a matter of months. 
Some people (not saying you in particular) happen to think that purebred dogs are absolute trash that are bred strictly for cash with no regards to their health, which isn't always true.
If they're pedigreed, yeah you can ask $500 for a dog. 
I wouldn't pay $500 for a mutt, though. Same reason I wouldn't buy a backyard bred meat horse for $500. Or $25.

This thread sort of went way off topic (from inbred/purebred/mutt dogs from the original reason of why we should rescue other people's mistakes), but that's okay, it's all fun to discuss, anyway! LOL
Though I'm not ENTIRELY sure I can get away with comparing horses to dogs... 

Yup, some dumb dog breeders breed purebreds with hip problems, eye problems, etc, just for a quick buck. 
Yup, some dumb backyard breeders breeds their mutt horses for a mutt foal with toed in front legs, cow hocked back legs with no shoulder and a back six miles long for a quick buck.
Neither of them are with five cents.


----------



## Susan Crumrine (Oct 5, 2009)

OK Triple D. You don't have a clue. One of the all time $ earning barrel horses was a rescue. It takes a real talented horseperson to pick a champion out of the "garbage". You will never have that incredible feeling. You are too much of a "breed snob".
Any well built horse can be taught reigning.

I stated earlier, We have a colt by INVASOR<( won the breeder's cup classic and the Dubai world cup.) Who was born with a rear limb deformity.
There are no guarantees in breeding. But you will never learn, will you?


----------



## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>>> OK Triple D. You don't have a clue. One of the all time $ earning barrel horses was a rescue. It takes a real talented horseperson to pick a champion out of the "garbage". You will never have that incredible feeling. You are too much of a "breed snob"._


Your statement I highlighted above kind of makes the point though-- It DOES take talent, a great eye, perfect timing, and plain old good luck to find a diamond in the rough at a rescue or at a friday night auction.... and the odds of all of that being "right" at the same time are slim...... so MOST people are much better off sticking to buying from programs that are responsibly producing horses with known pedigrees that are proven in the area in which they want to ride/compete/enjoy.

And I am sorry to hear about your colt with a deformity-- it can happen in any breeding. However-- it is not MORE likely to happen with proven, registered stock-- unfortunately it happened to you, but that doesn't mean that most people should stop buying/breeding proven registered horses and go out and take their chances on the unknown at a sale or rescue.


----------



## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> ^ Both of those dogs were bred by responsible breeders, also. We travelled a few hours to get the King Charles we wanted. The Kelpie was bred by a very experienced breeder of working Kelpies, and we have another dog bred by him who doesn't have the same issues.
> 
> Trust me, we did our research. Especially for a working Kelpie, it was tragic the day dad learned about his problems. Dad loves that dog like nothing else. And that dog loves to work, but now he can't.


I'm sure you guys did your research, but the problem is the breeders. Did they do their research? There are plenty of inheritable diseases in all dog breeds that can be avoided or at the very least reduced by not breeding dogs who have them. Also, if dog breeders bred to "better the breed" or at the very least to breed standard a lot of these problems could be avoided. 

My parent's have been breeding Labs for 25+ years. They have literally sold hundreds perhaps thousands of pups and we have had literally *2 *dogs that had problems. Even the couple of times there was an accidental breeding the pups came out beautiful (and were sold w/ no breeding clauses). That comes from a breeder being aware of the lines (and the problems) they are breeding into. And it's not as if Labs are a breed with a small amount of genetic problems.

Sorry I had to say something there it's one of my (many ) soapboxes. You probably wouldn't believe how much crap I get from people when I mention that my family breeds Labs. Sorry too cuz I am WAY off topic.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Susan Crumrine said:


> OK Triple D. You don't have a clue. One of the all time $ earning barrel horses was a rescue. It takes a real talented horseperson to pick a champion out of the "garbage". You will never have that incredible feeling. You are too much of a "breed snob".
> Any well built horse can be taught reigning.
> 
> I stated earlier, We have a colt by INVASOR<( won the breeder's cup classic and the Dubai world cup.) Who was born with a rear limb deformity.
> There are no guarantees in breeding. But you will never learn, will you?


I agree. While the horse that can be a champion is not at the auction every day there are still there. I've seen rescued purebred grey Andalusian. Beautiful gentle 12 yo horse (nicely broke and easily could do dressage). I still can't understand how he got into that situation but the fact it there. Unfortunately he was bought by the beginner rider very nice and responsible, but not able to advance with that horse (who could really kick the show ring).

Susan, the person at the old farm bred her Hanoverian mare (showing higher level dressage with the great confo and disposition) to the very nice stud (also with the great disposition) to get a nice gentle baby for the dressage training. The end result was a very cute filly, BUT with one front leg noticeably longer then other (she required the special shoe already from the baby age) and being a nervous wreck (no disposition transfer from the parents). So yeah, you just never know...


----------



## TripleDStables (Oct 11, 2009)

Are you talking about Scamper? Yeah he earned money but he was a terrible horse to look at. And, his clones should not be bred in my opinion. He was a horse of chance. 

Once again, this is not the discipline I am talking about. I'm talking about my personal reason for not rescuing. Which is for reining. I'm not going to go and search through rescue places for years to find my next prospect just to say I rescued. 

Obviously there are no guarantees in breeding. Anyone with the slightest common sense knows that. I will gladly take the chance with two well bred horses that I know than to get a horse I know little to nothing about that could have issues in the future from its past. 

That is my personal opinion, if that makes me a "snob" so be it. If that makes me a bad person for looking at my situation realistically... so be it. 

I would not rescue for a horse for my performance and breeding goals...


----------



## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Growing up on a farm, I learned very young the beauty of "murder". We raised all our animals by hand, and when butchering time came, they were shot and dressed. In a perfect world, we could all return to this extremely natural, humane and proper way of life. It's never bothered me - we have Filipino friends who often got their meat from us, and they say a prayer for every animal they kill. It is done cleanly, and they use every single part of the animal. It's beautiful to see they way they respect animals, even dead ones.
> 
> To be brutally frank though, I'm a realist to the extreme. I believe the value we put on human life is absolutely pathetic. The resources we waste trying to keep an 80 year old cancer patient alive is just ridiculous. The fact that suicide and assisted suicide is illegal makes me sick. Humans are just another population and we need to be controlled. I'm not saying start murdering people, I'm saying stop fighting so hard to keep old sick people alive. It's a waste - what the hell do we think is going to happen, they're going to get BETTER?
> 
> ...


Well put and I 100% agree. This is a tough subject and not everyone will agree on any one aspect of it, but I think it's a very good point about not letting animals - or HUMANS - suffer needlessly. I had to watch my uncle die slowly a horribly painful and humiliating death from a rare cancer. I know that had he been given the option to just be given an injection and end his suffering, he would have. But unfortunately we don't have that option as humans. I personally wish we did...although it would obviously have to be seriously regulated to avoid abuse.

But shouldn't it be the same for our horses and other pets? Shouldn't we have the option of humane euthanization instead of forcing them into crammed trailers with no food or water, to be trucked off to a plant where they're scared and hungry, tired and sick, then shot in the head (sometimes multiple times) with a high powered nail gun - or worse, a DAGGER to the spine like they do in Mexico?? How is that humane? How is it FAIR to do to them? I understand euthenasia is expensive and that's why they don't use it, but perhaps if we allowed humans who are dying the option of going that way, the extra money we'd have that would have been spent on keeping them alive needlessly could be put towards a fair and respectful death for animals like our horses.

We don't cart our dogs and cats off to slaughter do we? NO, we humanely euthanize them because we respect them as a part of our families. Well I'm sorry but my horse is also a part of my family, just like my two dogs are, and you'd better believe that when that day comes, she will be laid to rest HUMANELY with dignity and I don't care what I have to do to come up with the money to make sure of that. PERIOD.

For those who don't think slaughter is inhumane, watch this...it may change your mind. 

**WARNING: this is a graphic video **


----------



## TroubledTB (Jun 26, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Growing up on a farm, I learned very young the beauty of "murder". We raised all our animals by hand, and when butchering time came, they were shot and dressed. In a perfect world, we could all return to this extremely natural, humane and proper way of life. It's never bothered me - we have Filipino friends who often got their meat from us, and they say a prayer for every animal they kill. It is done cleanly, and they use every single part of the animal. It's beautiful to see they way they respect animals, even dead ones.
> 
> To be brutally frank though, I'm a realist to the extreme. I believe the value we put on human life is absolutely pathetic. The resources we waste trying to keep an 80 year old cancer patient alive is just ridiculous. The fact that suicide and assisted suicide is illegal makes me sick. Humans are just another population and we need to be controlled. I'm not saying start murdering people, I'm saying stop fighting so hard to keep old sick people alive. It's a waste - what the hell do we think is going to happen, they're going to get BETTER?
> 
> ...


I hate to admit there is a dark place inside of me that totally agrees with you, but I have choosen the alternative form of conviction by being a vegetarian/pescaterian (I eat some wild caught fish, dairy and eggs but no meat) and there for putting a higher value on life whether human or animal. Still I under stand when said race horse dies anyways and I had only come to expect it because from the moment of injury it was obvious and that money could have been used in other ways to justify the life and risks of a race horse by valuing not just the champion horses at the track but instead finding the losers a winning home.


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Susan Crumrine said:


> OK Triple D. You don't have a clue. One of the all time $ earning barrel horses was a rescue. It takes a real talented horseperson to pick a champion out of the "garbage". You will never have that incredible feeling. You are too much of a "breed snob".
> Any well built horse can be taught reigning.


While it is true that any horse can be taught to REIN that dose not make they a reiner. There is a big difference. If any horse could rein on a competitive level you would see more doing it. Take a look at even the affiliate level. Even the green reiners and rookie reiners. Those horses are all bred to be reiners. At least the ones who are competitive. 

It has nothing to do with being a breed snob what is has to do with is the cost of training a competitive reiner. Barrels is a lot different. I can show you many many nice horses who are just that nice horses with no specific breeding or much of anything else that are competitive in speed events. Even in NBHA. There is a huge circuit around here. There is a lot of difference in these events.


----------



## Susan Crumrine (Oct 5, 2009)

I rode for Ed Rennia, down in Ocala, so I have a very small bit of Knowledge about your discipline. 
Any horse can be taught the principles, certain horses are going to excell.
If you had to find a good prospect, instead of buying from a few choice bloodlines, you would develop more of an eye for conformation.
I know buying horses who are bred for many generations to rein is much easier.

I had a Morgan filly who did a better rollback than any Quarter horse in Ed's Barn.

OPEN YOUR MIND


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Susan Crumrine said:


> I rode for Ed Rennia, down in Ocala, so I have a very small bit of Knowledge about your discipline.
> Any horse can be taught the principles, certain horses are going to excell.
> If you had to find a good prospect, instead of buying from a few choice bloodlines, you would develop more of an eye for conformation.
> I know buying horses who are bred for many generations to rein is much easier.
> ...


See this is the problem. You ASSUME that I have no eye for a horse and conformation. You know what they say when you ASSUME anything. I am very good at picking prospects. 

You have to keep something in mind. I not only show reiners but I also breed reiners. So bloodlines play a big role in what I do. You also have to keep in mind that I do not just want a horse who can do the maneuvers I want a horse who is competitive. I want a horse who can not just qualify for the Regional finals but win the affiliate and so on.

If I am going to invest about $50K into the training and showing a horse I am not going to start with a no name, not registered, age unknown and unprovable horse. I am going to start not only with the best bred horse I can I am also going to start with the best conformation horse I can find. I do not want a horse I am going to have to retire after the aged events I want a horse that will win in the open with my trainer then I can show in the non pro. 

Also why would I again invest all that money in a horse who I am by contract not allowed to breed or even sell or lease out??? I am not. That is just a simple fact. I would love to find a nice rescue for my neighbor girl and my cousins daughter and son can use as a low level youth reiner. They would have a blast with it I am sure. However I am not going to put that kind of training into a horse I can not do with as I please. I will just let them use one of my horses even though the horse might be a bit more then they need.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

There are always exceptions. There are always rescues, breeds that are generally unsuitable for a certain discipline... I happen to have an arab who is the best gaming horse in my zone, age champion 5 years running. Does that mean i'll always buy arabs for gaming horses? NO WAY! MOST arabs are unsuitable for gaming.

It's not being breed snob. It's trying to have the best possible chance at purchasing/breeding a horse that will be suitable for a certain discipline. And that chance comes from using proven bloodlines, proven horses, known horses. By doing so, it has a trickle down effect. Unsuitable horses that shouldn't have been picked in the first place won't be discarded, and possibly end up in a slaughter pen. It's like the saying "breed the best to the best and hope for the best". There are always exceptions, but we get the best chance by using the best at the best, and hoping for the best.


----------



## TripleDStables (Oct 11, 2009)

Thank you nrhareiner and wild_spot. I thought this concept made sense. Obviously not to everyone. On a competitive level you cannot spend your time hoping this horse turns out to be something.

Conformation isn't everything in performance unfortunately. I've seen a lot a decently conformed horses do poorly and more poorly conformed horses excel.

There is a lot more to the equation. That is why there are discipline specific bloodlines...

I have rescued before. I rescued three severely neglected miniature horses and rehomed them to loving families with children. I *do* know the feeling and its great. They were grade animals for family pets. I've never been called a "snob" in my life, let alone a "breed snob." Then again you don't know me and my life story, you only know what I type. 

I think its wonderful that people rescue and show at open level shows and such. It just isn't for me and my goals in the industry.


----------



## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

I think its wonderful that people rescue and show at open level shows and such. It just isn't for me and my goals in the industry. 

I think that is the hard part for allot of people to see that we all have different goals, budgets, skill levels, and resources (trainers and horses to work with.), for example I live in Western Kentucky horses are fairly plentiful and allot of QH but you don't any reining trainers or for similar events, there is allot of rodeo and ropers around here.


----------

