# Mare with sunk in "parts"



## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Many broodmares get that way due to the "sag in the middle" from poor muscle tone. I would suggest speaking with your vet about a caslic's procedure to keep from having uterine infections. It's usually also helpful to work on building up muscle tone in the back and hips to better support things.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I have dealt with a few mares like this, older broodmares for the most part. A couple where tough to keep clean and in foal due to feces falling into the vagina. Usually required a good flush before breeding and caslics after she had took.


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

She was very thin/no muscle when I got her, I've noticed it starting to get better (not so sunkin in)

I will ask my vet about it also, thank you for the advise!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

This is very common in older mares and very thin mares. It is exacerbated by mares with a long back, low back, high tail-set and flat croup.

Mares not only get fecal contamination but also can 'suck air', have erratic heats or constant heat cycles and have a difficult time gaining weight. They are also prone to 'pooling urine'. 

It is always better to flush them out and suture them. The uterus is infused with an antibiotic solution and the top 1/2 to 2/3 of the vulva is 'snipped' on the edges and sutured shut. It grows together, keeps the mare clean and still allows them to urinate normally. They will stay a lot cleaner and gain weight and do better, too. It is also very helpful to get them on a high level of Vitamin A. 

When a person looks at any mare as a broodmare prospect, their conformation under their tail should be one of the first things evaluated.

I would probably get a Vet to work on this mare that is a breeding specialist.


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

I am not planning on breeding her, at all. She was used for breeding before me. 

She's not very old, she will be 10 in April. But she does have a long back and a high set tail. 

She doesnt look dirty and I don't find any pooling or feces stuck in the area. 

I will definitely discuss with my vet!


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

SarahStorms said:


> I am not planning on breeding her, at all. She was used for breeding before me.
> 
> She's not very old, she will be 10 in April. But she does have a long back and a high set tail.
> 
> ...



It's INSIDE the vulva where the nasty collects. That's why it's such a problem. You can't SEE in there.


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

I guess I misunderstood what you were saying, thanks squirrelfood.


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

Vet is coming out Monday morning to take a look.


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## luvmydrafts (Dec 26, 2013)

is she a TB or maybe arab? they are more prone to this, the table top croup/high tail set helps create this mess...if she is only 10 sounds like poor reproductive conformation to me and a mare this should never ever be bred...unfortunately theres ppl out there who just dont care...good luck with the vet visit and i hope they can help!!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> She doesnt look dirty and I don't find any pooling or feces stuck in the area.


Actually, the ones that pool urine do so during heat. The urine collects in their vaginal tract right in front of their cervix. Occasionally one will even have a gallon or more of urine in their uterus. Their urethra opens up right on their pelvic rim. If it gets pulled just a little too far forward, part of their urine will run forward toward their uterus instead of emptying out of their vulva. You never know it unless you examine one during heat.


The part of her that is 'dirty' is her uterus. A mare with a uterine infection caused by fecal contamination is referred to in the business as a 'dirty mare'. They can carry an infections that causes a discharge and pus in their uterus or they can 'look' completely clean but culture a dreaded venereal disease like a Pseudomonas or Klebsiella that are usually never going to clean up. They can carry an enteric bacteria like an E-Coli or Enterobacter or a Beta Step infection. If a person is not going to breed them, a broad spectrum antibiotic can be infused into them and then they can be sutured. If a mare is going to ever be bred again, it is best to take a culture when the mare is in heat and then treat according to the sensitivity that comes back from the Lab. Then, she can be sutured.

Either way, even if a mare is never going to bred, she should be treated and sutured. Without suturing, they get really uncomfortable and may be real difficult to ride, even when they are not in heat but usually much worse in heat. Any mare with her rectum sitting forward of their vulva should be sutured.



> if she is only 10 sounds like poor reproductive conformation to me and a mare this should never ever be bred...unfortunately theres ppl out there who just dont care.


That isn't exactly how it works. She was not this extreme when she was young and may still not be if she was not real thin. At her age, she is more a product of having several foals and getting way too thin. Her breeding conformation may improve greatly when she gets a lot more weight on her. I have seen very thin mares that had their rectum more than 6 inches forward of their vulva.

If your Vet that is coming is not an equine specialist or an equine breeding specialist, you may not get much done with a mare like this. Most general Vets can be pretty clueless on mare reproduction. That is why all of the breeding farms use Vets that specialize in equine reproduction.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Unless you have registration papers that is the only way to validate a horse's age. We can read the teeth but there are no guarantees. An elderly mare's teeth suggested she was 14 but her overall picture and how she moved said she was well into her 20s. A senior horse will develop a wider sprung rib cage as the pelvis tips forward and the back drops. We often see a hollow area under the tail. I do hope she is 10 as with good care and patience she should bloom.


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## CaliforniaDreaming (May 8, 2011)

Cherie said:


> Either way, even if a mare is never going to bred, she should be treated and sutured. Without suturing, they get really uncomfortable and may be real difficult to ride, even when they are not in heat but usually much worse in heat. Any mare with her rectum sitting forward of their vulva should be sutured.


I find this very interesting, Cherie. I too have a mare with a definite sinking in under her tail. It's pretty deep (almost enough to fit my hand down there, and until you mentioned it, I hadn't really put two and two together enough to think that the possibility that I've been having a really really difficult time riding her is possible due to that particular issue. She fits the description pretty well. Long backed, probably older than 16, supposedly was bred twice in the past, not flat cropped though, but a fairly high tail set. 

Never intending to breed her, I will definitely look into the suturing process, is it something that can be easily performed at the home barn? My mare has had strong heats, and is a lovely mover on the ground, but once I get on her back, she pins her ears, threatens to buck and generally acts grumpy and uncomfortable behind. Might be the issue here.

Are there any links that might be helpful? I'm sure they'd be great for the OP too since we've both got mares in a similar way.


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

She is a registered Quarter Horse (thats how I know her exact age).

Thank you all so much for the all the info! I will discuss the different options y'all have suggested and if he (my vet) can't help me I will try and find a reproductive specialist. 

I hate to think this could be causing her some discomfort. I really appreciate all the knowledge people have to offer on this site!!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Suturing a mare is done standing in a set of stocks. We have a set of stocks and use them all of the time. If a person does not have them, then the horse needs to go to a Vet clinic. Some horses need to be tranquillized, but most do not if they are gentle and well-mannered. Their tail is wrapped and tied out of the way. They are thoroughly washed with soap and water. [After they are really clean, most of them defecate and you have to start all over.] They are prepared like they would be for insemination at a breeding farm. 

Then. they are twitched and Novocain is injected all around the upper part of the vulva. Then a surgical scissors or scalpel is used to cut off a thin edge around the upper 1/3 to 1/2 of the vulva. The right and left sides are then sutured together. They grow together within a week to ten days and the sutures can be removed. 

We have always done this when a mare was in heat so her cervix was open. That way, she can be infused with a broad spectrum antibiotic before suturing. 

Many mares do ride much better after being sutured. A lot of these mares suck wind and get absolutely miserable. Having feces in their vaginal tract is also very irritating to them. Many are very resistant to jumping and running as that causes them to 'open up' behind. 

I was at a small H/J barn one time about 30 years ago. I heard a mare 'suck air' as she went over a small fence. The riding instructor was using a whip to make her jump it because she had refused it several times with a student. Her ears were back, she was wringing her tail and she was one miserable horse. When I told the barn owner what was going on, she pulled the horse out. She called me later to thank me saying that they had the Vet out and the mare was badly in need of being sutured. She said she was a different horse. She thought that this problem was probably why she dropped from being a show hunter to barely being a lesson horse at a small H/J barn. 

Many race mares and show mares are sutured routinely when they are in training. Mares do not have to be old or thin to suck air but thin horses and horses with a recessed rectum are MUCH more prone to it.


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

Vet came this morning. He explained to me why this happens a lot with mares that have been bred. He does not see it as extreme and he doesn’t feel as if she needs to have the caslic's procedure done. He said if things start to change (smell, discharge, etc.) He would do the procedure. 

He said adding weight and muscle will also help put things back in place!


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Lazy vet. He should have at LEAST flushed her.


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

Well, that's your own opinion. I find it strange you can judge a vet and call him lazy by the few sentences I wrote above. 

I appreciate everyone's help, but I'll trust my vet.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I had a Thoroughbred mare I used for breeding. We Caslicked her... me holding her head and her butt out the box stall door. No stocks (didn't have any). She was fine. I cut her at foaling and she was sutured back up the next day (after cleaning and so forth and being vet checked). When they go to foal and shortly after than do not have a lot of feeling back there. 

Glad you had her checked. Hope she looks great with weight on her!


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

thanks Elana!!

Shes come a long way in a month and a half! the picture on the left is the other day and the one of the right was a few days after I got (sorry about the gate)


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

I should say, we are working on adding muscle, not weight right now.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

She has come a long way.


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