# Could Kodak have navicular?



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

As some of you know, my journey with Kodak has been full of bumps. And bruises. And a concussion. I've had her over three years now, and she is no better, in fact, she has gotten worse over the last year or so. It's not so much her spookiness that is causing issues, but she's been consistently "ouchy" in the fronts. To the point where anytime we ask her to canter, she will do a stride or two, then stop suddenly, put her head down between her legs, and act like she is going to buck. She doesn't, however. But we haven't pushed her further to see if she would actually follow through. I will usually just regroup, and try the canter again. It doesn't improve. 

After having her treated by two chiros, a massage therapist, and looked at by a couple of vets, we've had no luck identifying any issues. Her back seems fine. She probably doesn't have the best fitting saddle (though I have tried her in several), but here's the thing - she does it on a lunge line too, without a rider on her. And she's had lots of rest, because we hardly ever ride her anymore. 

A new person moved into my area, however, providing all sorts of treatments. They include red light therapy, and equine podiatry. I figured I'd give it a try, desperate to see if there's any way to help Kodak. After an assessment, three treatments and a reassessment, she believes Kodak suffers from navicular syndrome. Essentially, she has identified a few symptoms, specifically, some inflammation around the pastern, a very choppy gait (I'd always found that with Kodak, but moreso in the last year), thin soles, and a strong reaction to hoof testers around the frog area. She suggested I get radiographs to confirm or rule out navicular. 

On the other hand, my barefoot trimmer does not think it's navicular. She is of the opinion that Kodak's central sulcii are causing the problems, as they frequently open up, requiring me to treat them. I'm using a version of Pete's goo as per Pete Ramey's suggestions (my trimmer follows Pete and just did a workshop with him). Is the equine podiatrist just seeing problems in the hoof because that's her specialty? Or are the hoof problems a symptom of something else? But is it worth doing the X-rays anyway to see if we can see something, or even rule it out? 

Hoof gurus out there, what are your thoughts? Is it worth having her feet x-rayed? Will they give us an answer, or just be a waste of money? Keep in mind it will have to be done with a portable X-ray machine since Kodak has severe anxiety and doesn't trailer her well so traveling to a vet is not feasible. Also, despite all appearances to the contrary, I do not have unlimited amounts of money to throw on this horse. If we can't ride her, that's fine, she'll likely remain here as a pasture pet since I've grown rather fond of the girl, despite everything, and I can't sell her anyway. But if we can make her more comfortable, then maybe we should... but even if we fixed this, it's likely there will be other things going on. The list is long, I'm afraid. What would you do?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Well, there's a problem with doing xrays for navicular. From what I've read, more modern technology has shown us that what has been called navicular in the past can be caused from a variety of issues.

Seeing changes in the navicular bone is like seeing issues with the spine on xray. There are people walking around with terrible looking back xrays that have no pain, and people who have great back xrays but have a lot of pain. That's because of the role of soft tissue issues in pain.

So a horse can have changes in the navicular bone, but they've found these incidentally on many horses that don't have pain. But when they do MRIs on horses with bilateral heel pain issues, they have found anything from lesions or tears in the deep digital flexor tendon to an injury to other small tendons or ligaments in the hoof. 

I'm not saying you should do an MRI, but I'm saying xrays may lead you down expensive pathways that might not be actually treating the cause. If the navicular bones have changes, you will probably be recommended to have special, expensive shoeing. But those bony changes might not be the cause of pain.

Horses that have corrective shoeing for navicular often do have a relief of symptoms. Yet many of those issues with the tendons and ligaments in the hoof are caused by low heel/long toe hoof trimming, which can cause things like the deep digital flexor tendon rubbing over the navicular bone and causing bursitis (and some of the bony changes). So changing those angles can help, but you could do it more cheaply. Or with some horses, they do have chronic thrush in the deep central sulcus, or weak digital cushions, and the shoeing relieves those from the ground which helps the pain. 

You could do other things to see if they help, which are less expensive. Have you tried riding her with boots on? Have you tried doing a more intensive treatment of her frogs to see if you can clear up the thrush better? Something like White Lightning followed by a couple weeks of soaking and Pete's Goo, etc. Does your trimmer think you are making progress with her thin soles? With a year of good trimming, a barefoot trimmer ought to be able to make some progress there. Still, many horses might always need to be ridden in boots. 

https://horseandrider.com/health/image-52820


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> Well, there's a problem with doing xrays for navicular. From what I've read, more modern technology has shown us that what has been called navicular in the past can be caused from a variety of issues.
> 
> Seeing changes in the navicular bone is like seeing issues with the spine on xray. There are people walking around with terrible looking back xrays that have no pain, and people who have great back xrays but have a lot of pain. That's because of the role of soft tissue issues in pain.
> 
> ...



Thank you! And yes, this is exactly how I feel. From my very limited reading, it seems like MRI is the best tool. That's not available here. X-Rays may or may not reveal something, but as you point out, it doesn't seem like changes in the navicular bone or supporting structures always correlate with pain. Furthermore, I'm really not keen on corrective shoeing. I have no problem with the idea of riding her in boots, however, and we've had great success riding Harley in Easyboot gloves.


I'll talk to my trimmer again. I have not tried White Lightning, but I did soak at one point last year. Probably not enough to make a difference. I like the idea of trying to treat the frogs more aggressively and investing in boots rather than x-rays. Because even if we did get a confirmation of navicular, boots would be my preferred management option anyway.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Wouldn't a horse with something that caused hoof pain balk at trotting as well as at cantering? How does she trot out?


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Navicular comes in two flavours, navicular syndrome and navicular disease. The syndrome is non-specific heel pain. Disease has changes to the navicular bone. Syndrome can lead to disease, but there's other things can cause the non-specific heel pain that don't involve the navicular.


I never turn down the chance to do xrays. At the least it can give insight into the internal structures vs her trim that could be contributing.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

From what you described it seems like navicular syndrome, especially with the central sulci opening up. Syndrome is different from disease, syndrome is caused by her not being balanced when she's trimmed. It means pain in the navicular bone and an x-ray won't pick that up, a good farrier will. Actual navicular disease will show up on x-rays.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I would x-ray tonsee what you're dealing with in the feet. It may give you an answer, and it may not, but it won't hurt and can serve as a baseline. You can decide with your vet where to go from there. Perhaps a mild pain med may make a big difference for her comfort.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

tinyliny said:


> Wouldn't a horse with something that caused hoof pain balk at trotting as well as at cantering? How does she trot out?


She'll trot right away when I ask, but is choppy. Then again, I always found her movement somewhat choppy, and assumed it was because she holds so much tension in her body. She doesn't really have an extended trot, just a very choppy and fast trot.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

ApuetsoT said:


> Navicular comes in two flavours, navicular syndrome and navicular disease. The syndrome is non-specific heel pain. Disease has changes to the navicular bone. Syndrome can lead to disease, but there's other things can cause the non-specific heel pain that don't involve the navicular.
> 
> 
> I never turn down the chance to do xrays. At the least it can give insight into the internal structures vs her trim that could be contributing.


Thanks for the clarification on syndrome vs disease. The equine podiatrist (still don't know exactly how her credentials are different from a regular certified trimmer) says it would be a mild case if it is navicular. I'll ask if she is thinking syndrome or disease. If it's mild, there's a good chance we won't see it on X-ray right? The equine podiatrist told me that the vets probably wouldn't see anything, but that if I sent her the X-rays, she'd probably be able to read them better than the vets. 

My only hesitation is that money is tight, and I am reluctant to throw 500$ on X-rays when I could use that money to buy good hoof boots. However, @SilverMaple's comment on having a baseline is a good one. 

I could also ask the equine podiatrist if she'll trim her hooves for a few months to see if Kodak improves. It will insult my regular trimmer a little, and I have a great relationship with her (she'd continue to do Harley and Rusty), but I think she would understand that I just need to try something different.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

I think getting xrays isn't a bad call - they always use portable ones for Katie. I also got hers done as a baseline. I know it sucks :< Hopefully they can eliminate something if not diagnose!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Yes, as explained, 'navicular syndrome' broadly just means chronic heel/caudal foot pain, so it does sound like she has that, but it's not necessarily anything to go to panic stations about. Unfortunately very many horses have (often undiagnosed) caudal foot pain/damage. In many instances, it's due to undeveloped caudal feet, &/or poor hoof balance/long toes. It can be due to untreated(or ineffectively treated) thrush, so yeah, be diligent about that. Trouble is, 'navicular' was such a mystery until relatively recently, so rather... vague, & classed as 'incurable'. A lot of professionals still seem to think of it as such. **Please note I'm not saying all 'navicular' horses are curable BTW.

Ditto to getting xrays if you can, but while it will tell you if there are any bony changes - so rule out or diagnose 'navicular _disease_' - it won't tell you about the state of the 'syndrome' of soft tissue damage/inflammation. Which if untreated, _results in _the bony changes. So... you could say rads will rule in or out the greater degree/chronicness of the problem. They will give you an idea how far progressed it may be. As well as accurately show toe length, heel height etc, for more specific trimming, which as explained by others could be an issue. Diagnostic ultrasound is another option to MRI which might be more accessible & cheaper for you too. This will show the state of the soft tissue.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

Going to vote yes on X-rays and also throw in a vote for boots. There is actually a Face - book group for used boots and many posters are from Canada. I have a Navicular mare. Her gait was always choppy - her attitude for the most part was willing. but her gait became so bad that she was almost dangerous walking down steep inclines as she really wanted to walk on her toes. We had x-rays done and saw extremely minor shadowing on the Navicular bone. We went with shoes and wedges. What a mistake! We suffered through that for 2 years and it just caused huge thrush that made her more sore. We eventually decided to mostly retire her and she was on PreviCoxx - I then took classed to learn to trim my own horses and that practitioner was a god send . We took YaYa to my last class as my demo horse and the instructor ended up trimming her instead of me. Her heels were under run and narrow and she had deep sulcus thrush that had travelled far under the heel bulbs. It took almost a year to get that thrush all of the way cleared up. We tried everything (including antibiotics from the vet) eventually medicated padding shoved into the cleaned and debrided frogs and heel bulb cleared up the worst of it. I started trimming her myself every 4 weeks with a more experience trimmer coming out every other trim just to make sure I was on the right path. She became ridable enough with boots on that my daughters BF rides her - she still gets a little sore after a couple of hours of trail riding but she can do the steep inclines with no issue. My daughter rides her occasionally here and says her trot is smooth but her canter still a little choppy. The mare trots and races around the pasture with no issues. The result from probably years of deep thrush and potentially navicular is that she has negative palmar angles and we do wedge her boots with pads just slightly. She still wants to slide her foot when she walks and not walk heel toe like she should - her heels do not grow well and the tubules grow forward no matter what I do - she is trimmed with her toes as far back as we can safely do it and a gentle rasp just across the heels to bring them back. This mare will be 22 in just a few months and looks great and is an extra horse that can be lightly ridden by my daughter or her BF

You may be onto something with Kodak - baseline xrays are great and FWIW our mare has had no significant changes in hers in the last 7 years.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> Wouldn't a horse with something that caused hoof pain balk at trotting as well as at cantering? How does she trot out?


I am not sure why, exactly, but I have seen that things like deep central sulcus thrush and other causes of heel pain can be more bothersome at the canter. I've seen horses with club hooves that had some heel pain from various issues and they tend to trot better than canter. My guess it is because that leading foreleg carries more weight for longer, while at the trot the weight is more evenly distributed.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks all! This is all very useful.
@carshon, I used to shove medicated pads in her central sulcus and have soaked and done all sorts of things. But to be clear, her frog does not appear or smell thrushy at all. The central sulci just don't seem to want to close. It's frustrating because I have looked at everything from nutrition to hoof treatments. On the surface (and underneath), her hooves look great. But according to my trimmer, sometimes there can still be infection deep in the central sulci. The Equine Podiatrist thinks the problem lies much deeper than that.

I do think hoof boots are the answer, and agree that xrays might be useful if not necessarily conclusive.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

If you can swing it, I'd do the x-rays before you do the hoof boots, then show those radiographs to your farrier. Sometimes seeing what is actually going on inside the foot can mean a drastically different trim. You don't want to spend money on boots if you'll need a different type or size once your horse is trimmed if the farrier adjusts based on the radiographs. Call around-- I've had x-rays done for less than $200, especially if it was just the fronts and the vet could work me in when he was in the vicinity for another call rather than making a special trip. Sometimes what's apparent on the outside doesn't match the inside, and if that's the case, seeing the angle of the foot's structures can mean adjusting the breakover by taking the toe back much farther than one would without having them, and if that's the case and your mare is then more comfortable, you may not need the boots at all.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

That is what our problem was. We treated thrush but never got in deep enough. The barefoot instructor got in there deeper and more aggressively than I ever would have for fear of hurting her. She cut away what looked like good heel bulb and from only to reveal deep pockets of thrush. We started by squirting Pennecillin into the heel bulb crevice with a syringe and moved to other treatments. Oxide and other things - and cutting away tissue that wanted to cover the hole eventually the hole was not as deep as it heeled from within. Thrush is still a battle with this mare - and we have had a minor drought this summer and the pastures are dry and her pen dry - we have changed feeds - changed bedding (she now has no bedding in her stall or run) and it just seems to be her.

I think looking into deep thrush is a good start.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

It takes a lot of thrush to make a horse even tender.


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## TeeZee (May 26, 2018)

Acadianartist said:


> Thanks all! This is all very useful.
> 
> @carshon, I used to shove medicated pads in her central sulcus and have soaked and done all sorts of things. But to be clear, her frog does not appear or smell thrushy at all. The central sulci just don't seem to want to close. It's frustrating because I have looked at everything from nutrition to hoof treatments. On the surface (and underneath), her hooves look great. But according to my trimmer, sometimes there can still be infection deep in the central sulci. The Equine Podiatrist thinks the problem lies much deeper than that.
> 
> I do think hoof boots are the answer, and agree that xrays might be useful if not necessarily conclusive.


I agree with your trimmer that there could still be deep central sulci thrush, and yes it can be very painful. The best way I have found to treat this is by using a cattle mastitis treatment. There are 2 products. One is called Today, and the other is called Tomorrow. I would start with Today, and do maintenance with Tomorrow. It has a 3 inch long and thin applicator neck to reach into crevices and pockets. Works great!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Again, this is all really useful! Especially the part about deep thrush. Like you @*carshon* , we do not have a problem with mud or moisture, especially at this time of year. It's dry as a bone out there, and she is on very absorbent bedding. I pick out her feet daily and use thrush fighting products when needed. So I'm puzzled, but it lines up with what my trimmer thinks. 
@*SilverMaple* - there is no calling around, we have livestock vets who have the best prices, but very little knowledge about horses, and more specialized vets that I'd have to travel to, which is not an option with Kodak. 

The prices are not negotiable - this will cost me about 500$ using the cheap livestock vets. I'm not saying that's a good reason not to do it, but I do have to consider the cost among other factors. Forget getting ultrasounds or MRIs unless I'm willing to pay thousands of dollars and trailer 5 hours (one way) to a vet college with a horse that won't get on the trailer and is terrified of everything. So that's out. I think I will do the X-rays, I just need another pay cycle or two before I can afford them.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

carshon said:


> That is what our problem was. We treated thrush but never got in deep enough. The barefoot instructor got in there deeper and more aggressively than I ever would have for fear of hurting her. She cut away what looked like good heel bulb and from only to reveal deep pockets of thrush. We started by squirting Pennecillin into the heel bulb crevice with a syringe and moved to other treatments. Oxide and other things - and cutting away tissue that wanted to cover the hole eventually the hole was not as deep as it heeled from within. Thrush is still a battle with this mare - and we have had a minor drought this summer and the pastures are dry and her pen dry - we have changed feeds - changed bedding (she now has no bedding in her stall or run) and it just seems to be her.
> 
> I think looking into deep thrush is a good start.


She's shedding her frog right now. Maybe a good time to do some soaking while the frog is a little more exposed.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I am confused. Wouldn't you want the central sulcus groove to be open? I mean, a wide V shape? My lease horse had really contracted heals from too tight of shoeing for years. His central sulcus was a slit, and it was about an inch deep, so you could wedge the hoof pick part in, and it disappeared. It was very hard to clean out since you could not see what was down in there, and the poor horse felt the cleaning too much. 

On the trail, he would often trot ok for a bit, then start to really throw his head up and down and seem to hop on his right front a bit.




We treated the thrush he must have had in that deep dark place with the iodine blue stuff, and wonderdust, and it would seem to improve. But, when we switched farriers, and got a guy who knew how to get his heels top open up, the central sulcus also openned, and now I can see if it is clean or not. 



So, that's why I thought an 'open' central sulcus was GOOD.


I would suggest before paying for the Xrays that you treat radically for thrush, try the new trimmer, and THEN , if that doesn't help, do the Xrays. 

If the Xray shows no bone damage, it will then mean that the problem is probably thrush or poor trimming; things you can address in any case with no major financial loss.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Acadianartist said:


> But to be clear, her frog does not appear or smell thrushy at all. The central sulci just don't seem to want to close.


This bit confuses me a bit. Second sentence - copied first because thrush/infection doesn't always smell bad. In a good foot, the central sulcus should be wide open, not a closed crevice. Pics??

And meant to ask, if your trimmer is seeing nothing wrong, does that mean she's not seeing lameness either? If the EP found swelling around the pastern, great sensitivity in the caudal foot, what is your trimmer saying about that? Does she disagree those things are happening, or...?


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## TeeZee (May 26, 2018)

I say go ahead with the x-rays, but only if your livestock vets have a good equine vet to consult with. It may cost an extra fee for consultation, but no use having someone read them that might not 'see' everything.

Will your horse trailer better with a buddy? No harm hauling a buddy with the weather starting to get cooler. How about a mild sedative? Only you know your horse well. Only suggestions to help with costs.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

@*tinyliny* - will get pics, that might help clarify. Her central sulci often have a deep slit like you describe. The equine podiatrist says it shouldn't be more than a thumbprint. Hers are deep (perhaps open wasn't the best way to describe them, sorry), and often run up her heel. Will try to get pics shortly as I have to go put some Pete's goo in them.

@*loosie* , the trimmer agrees Kodak shows some signs of caudal pain or discomfort. She believes it stems from the frog though, not from the internal structures (ie, navicular). She is not as concerned as the equine podiatrist, who feels it is probably more serious and irreversible. Trimmer thinks that with aggressive topical treatment, Kodak will probably recover. Though she does think hoof boots are a good idea, and will fit Kodak for some Easyboot gloves if I decide to go that route. So I will try that route first, since I can't afford radiographs right away, and have nothing to lose. 

@*TeeZee* , no, she doesn't trailer better with a buddy, or we would do that in a second (my daughter's show jumper is really easy to trailer). Hoof sensitivity is just one of Kodak's many issues. She is explosive, anxious, and unpredictable. I can't tie her solid to anything or she pulls back until she injures herself. Even if I could trailer her, walking her into a place like a vet lab would be a recipe for disaster. Too many strange things for her to cope with. So the only way X-rays are feasible is to take the machine to her. But I appreciate the suggestion.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I would try a different farrier. Don't worry about insulting another trimmer, if they are decent they have more than enough work and are glad that another horse can be done by somebody else.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

waresbear said:


> I would try a different farrier. Don't worry about insulting another trimmer, if they are decent they have more than enough work and are glad that another horse can be done by somebody else.


I hear you, but I have a good relationship with my trimmer and would like to keep it that way. Around here, good trimmers are very rare. Everyone just puts shoes on their horses, or learns to trim themselves. Something I've started working towards, but atm, there's just no way I'd have time to become proficient enough to trim three horses. As always, I am vey limited by resources available locally. The Equine Podiatrist just moved here. Maybe she'd trim. But maybe she's not going to stick around. Maybe she's not as good as she thinks. I've had the other trimmer for nearly 4 years. The new girl may do like many have before her, move on when she realizes the horse world is small around here, and there isn't enough money to be made. So then I've lost both trimmers. 

I'm not saying I have to stick with the same trimmer because I always have, but I can't just be jumping willy nilly from one trimmer to the next either. Because there won't be any left in very little time. I need to weigh the pros and cons here. 

I did take photos last night, but between me holding the camera with one hand and the hoof in the other, and doing it in the dark, they all turned out blurry. Will try again this morning with dd's help.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I ask myself questions when deciding what and how much diagnostics and treatments to do. #1 is, Will knowing she is or is not navicular change anything you're doing now? You're not riding her, you say it's ok if she's a pasture puff and can continue to not be ridden. You can give her bute or banamine for pain, without knowing exactly where the pain is, and she can graze without knowing she's navicular. So, in my case, I would not spend any more money on diagnosing the horse, and she'd continue to do her thing out on pasture and she wouldn't be ridden or worked by me anymore. If she gets really sore and miserable, then you may need to spend more to put her down so she's not in pain, but otherwise just feeding and having the farrier keep her feet in good shape, would be all that she'd get at this point.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I ask myself questions when deciding what and how much diagnostics and treatments to do. #1 is, Will knowing she is or is not navicular change anything you're doing now? You're not riding her, you say it's ok if she's a pasture puff and can continue to not be ridden. You can give her bute or banamine for pain, without knowing exactly where the pain is, and she can graze without knowing she's navicular. So, in my case, I would not spend any more money on diagnosing the horse, and she'd continue to do her thing out on pasture and she wouldn't be ridden or worked by me anymore. If she gets really sore and miserable, then you may need to spend more to put her down so she's not in pain, but otherwise just feeding and having the farrier keep her feet in good shape, would be all that she'd get at this point.


I'm actually thinking about treating her as if she has navicular. Putting her in hoof boots, treating her frog as if it might have some deep thrush, and seeing what happens. Regardless, given our history together, it's unlikely I will ride her much. However, I have the opportunity to loan her out to my daughter's coach. No cost to me, the coach is maybe thinking she could put the occasional rider on her (she just put two of hers down, and already has a horse with navicular who is one of the favorites at the barn, so that doesn't scare her off). It's likely she would end up wearing shoes if I do this, however. But the coach thinks her issues are behavioral, and that she'd improve with regular work. I trust this coach, and her horses are very well-loved and cared-for, but we don't always have the same approach. I'll admit, she is vastly more experienced than me though. Her mother bred Arabians, so she has literally always had horses. And there's no way of knowing whether this would make Kodak better or worse, and at the very least, shoes might give her some protection, even if that's not what I'd do. If it's a disaster, I bring her back home. I don't like the idea of trailering her, but would likely ask the coach and her husband to do it because I'd have too much anxiety about it, and Kodak would feed off it. The coach is confident they can get it done. 

Decisions, decisions.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> I'm actually thinking about treating her as if she has navicular. Putting her in hoof boots, treating her frog as if it might have some deep thrush, and seeing what happens. Regardless, given our history together, it's unlikely I will ride her much. However, I have the opportunity to loan her out to my daughter's coach. No cost to me, the coach is maybe thinking she could put the occasional rider on her (she just put two of hers down, and already has a horse with navicular who is one of the favorites at the barn, so that doesn't scare her off). It's likely she would end up wearing shoes if I do this, however. But the coach thinks her issues are behavioral, and that she'd improve with regular work. I trust this coach, and her horses are very well-loved and cared-for, but we don't always have the same approach. I'll admit, she is vastly more experienced than me though. Her mother bred Arabians, so she has literally always had horses. And there's no way of knowing whether this would make Kodak better or worse, and at the very least, shoes might give her some protection, even if that's not what I'd do. If it's a disaster, I bring her back home. I don't like the idea of trailering her, but would likely ask the coach and her husband to do it because I'd have too much anxiety about it, and Kodak would feed off it. The coach is confident they can get it done.
> 
> Decisions, decisions.


If you have the opportunity to loan her out, so that she's cared for by someone else, then yes. But, I would tell them, "Here's where we stand. I have stopped spending money on more treatment and diagnostics, so if you want to put navicular shoes on her, that's up to you (your expense). If she works out, great, if she doesn't, bring her home. Come on down and pick her up, let me know when to expect you." and I would let them do what they do best.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Ok, here are some photos. Hoof gurus, go at it.

Photobomb by Rusty, who thinks everything is about him.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Right front.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Left front.

The frogs are very messy right now - she's been shedding lately so they look different every day.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I look forward to hearing what the resident hoof gurus say. Her feet look very different than X's feet did, before the better farrier. Back then, the heel bulbs were very close to each other, the frog was long and very narrow, with a deep central groove, a slit that ran from one end right up to the heel bulbs..
The bars on her hoof look long to me, but I am so NOT a hoof person.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Just letting you all know that if anyone comments and I don't reply for a couple of days, it's because we've lost power. Dorian has been upgraded to a Category 2 hurricane, and is scheduled to make landfall in Nova Scotia in 4 hours. Already, the devastation there is beginning to show up on social media. Don't worry, I'm quite far away in the neighboring province of New Brunswick, and I'm nowhere near shorelines. I don't think it will be bad here, but we are getting wind and a ton of rain, so we're preparing for the possibility that we will lose power, and if we do, it may last days. We're ready for it, the horses will be tucked in safely in the barn tonight, I just wanted to give you all a heads up that I may be offline.


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## lhoward31 (May 7, 2019)

I would absolutely try another trimmer. I'm not a specialist, but these feet look really off for a barefoot trim. The toes look loong and stretched forward. The heels also look like they are being pulled forward and the horse is traveling on the frog and heel bulbs to much? 
Look at the angle from the outside, you actually have a inward bend. To long, wrong angle that forces all the weight to the back of the hoof. 
That is a pretty sorry barefoot trim. The toes should come back and be shortened, the heel needs to slowly be allowed to stand up a bit, at which time it will be slightly shorter but more supportive underneath the horse. Once the folded over bars and forward heels are addressed, and the toe shortened with a better break over, the frog should naturally widen and strengthen. None of that should be done in one swoop or a big hurry, this horse has been this way for a while. It will take a good trimmer to trim little but very often to fix this mess. 
But no, this doesn't look good to me at all. And I HAVE all of Pete's trimming DVD's, I see nothing like this in his work.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

waresbear said:


> Don't worry about insulting another trimmer, if they are decent they have more than enough work and are glad that another horse can be done by somebody else.


If she is a good trimmer, I would absolutely not want her to feel insulted by me. Not at all to do with whether she needs the work, but that I may need her in future, so I wouldn't want to spoil that. Given Kodak's many issues, given that Acadian is going to continue getting the others done by her, I'm sure Acadian can put it in a way though that a rational person will not be affronted though.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Acadianartist said:


> I'm actually thinking about treating her as if she has navicular.


I'm of a similar opinion to this, and to Dreamcatcher - I WOULD get xrays, and ultrasound, MRI, IF I could comfortably afford it(haha), but that's mostly because seeing these is fascinating to me, not because I would think there's a burning _need_ to know the details, that they would greatly change the way I'd manage her or such. Just like getting a horse tested for IR - it's interesting to know, but not necessary.

So I agree that if your horse has tender/damaged caudal feet, they are tender & damaged & need protecting, regardless of what lables diagnostics may allow you to put on them. Just like ALL horses are 'prone' to IR given the wrong feeding/management, so they should all be treated as such, regardless of test results.



> It's likely she would end up wearing shoes if I do this, however.


As 'navicular' has been not well understood, thought of as incurable & progressive, conventional 'treatment' of shoes, wedges, etc is purely palliative. It doesn't treat the underlying issues(in fact, allows them to worsen), just treats the symptoms of discomfort, as long as it works. So, knowing how far progressed, how much damage may well cut down the likelihood of actually fixing the problems effectively, so you may decide there's little point in alternatives to purely palliative measures. But essentially, that is what *your decision* to have the horse shod is down to. And whether or not you loan the horse to your coach, it's YOUR decision whether she is shod or not. So I'd consider all that carefully myself - wouldn't just let the coach shoe the horse because she wants to, but you might decide it's in the horse's best interest to allow her to do so.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Sorry Acadian, but not too impressed by her feets. *Not knowing how long current trimmer has been doing them, not knowing how they were before or how long since last trim, not judging her necessarily tho. Due for a trim, so hopefully can soon be helped. She has long, 'stretched' walls all round. Looks like some m/L imbalance too. Her long toes/ forward 'breakover' will be putting excess strain on the extensor process area(at the front) and on the navicular area at every step. She has very thin soles, esp at the toe end, which also will not improve while the walls are stretched. 

I would be treating her for thrush(but not with 'aggressive' chemicals) and providing support under her weak, retracted looking frogs(flexible & not under heel walls).


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks all. Not what I want to hear, obviously, since we don't exactly have a multitude of people trained as barefoot trimmers around here. But that's why I posted the pics, to get unbiased opinions. I'll see if the Equine Podiatrist wants to take over her trims for a while, maybe she's better than my current trimmer. Worth a shot I suppose. I only hesitate because I don't really know that much about her, she's new in town, and so I have not been able to find anyone who recommends her. 

As for shoes, it's not my preferred route, and the Equine Podiatrist isn't keen on those either. She's more of the opinion that a better trim and some hoof boots would work. Given the comments here, I'm guessing you'd agree. So for now, I'll put off the X-rays (which doesn't mean I won't do them, but I need time to catch up financially) and start looking into treatment. The EP is here tomorrow so I'll chat with her about trimming Kodak's hooves. I'll just tell my trimmer that I'm trying something different. She'll accept it - she's not at all unreasonable - but of course she'll feel a little slighted since she's been doing Kodak's hooves ever since I've had her. 

If Kodak's feet improve under the EP's care, I may ask her to take over my two others as well. If my current trimmer isn't doing a good job with Kodak, it's likely she's not doing any better with Rusty and Harley. 

I appreciate you all taking the time to provide feedback.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

The equine podiatrist should have a website and she should have her schooling & certifications listed. I would 
Ike to think she interned under someone highly qualified who knows their stuff.

Like Stephen O'Grady or Ric Redden, in the U.S., for example, but someone in Canada if she did not receive training in the U.S. Perhaps she even studied in Europe but all of that SHOULD be on a web page, if she has any sense in her head

You could look at the credentials of the school(s) she attended and the qualifications of the people she interned under. Without actual references, investigating those aspects is at least better than the proverbial "poke in the eye with a sharp stick" and you would something about her


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

They don't look balanced to me. I also think there's some flaps in there where thrush can be growing. Soaking will work, but I think the key is opening up the crevices and keeping them open to let the area heal. That will keep it away.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> It's not so much her spookiness that is causing issues, but she's been consistently "ouchy" in the fronts.
> 
> And she's had lots of rest, because we hardly ever ride her anymore.
> 
> ...



Quite honestly, if you don't ride her much and you aren't going to rehome her .... is it honestly worth your money to find out what's wrong? (And that's coming from someone who spends way too much money on her fur babies, LOL.) Short choppy gait is different than one that's obviously lame/limping. And I don't mean to be disrespectful of the horse, but I also understand your money limitations and your vet limitations and I just don't know how much you'd want to spend and IF it would even give you any answers. Is she happy to go for a ride? Would she be fine continue "as is"?

But with that said, I have two horses with "navicular". But both are very different. 

Red is far worse. And actually feels worse after he's had time off -- it makes him more stiff. However, his x-rays are completely clean. Obviously, there is something going on in the soft tissue to cause his heel pain, but I'm not about to drive 8 hours one way to get an MRI since it wouldn't really change his treatment protocol anyway. I sprung the money to try ProStride injections this spring in both front feet this year but I can't say I really noticed any difference compared to the cheaper steroid cocktail. I keep him in 3 degree wedge pads with shoes on his front feet, and he also gets Equioxx every day. He's the most expensive barrel horse that I have .... that I can't barrel race on! I like to think I have given him the very, very, very best care possible but yet he still has a short choppy stride and isn't 100% comfortable. 

Then there's Dexter. I kind of suspected he might have something going on with this front feet. He's the same age as Red (13). I've always kept regular shoes on his front feet but haven't really noticed too much problem with performance. He flexed a bit sore on his lameness exam and I opted to do x-rays on his front left foot this year and he does have mild changes to the navicular bone. So he's "worse" than Red because his has progressed to bony changes .... but he's not worse. He's better. I did put him in 2 degree wedge pads with his shoes after that but I'm not convinced that's the right move for him, based on his angles on the x-rays. I did not opt to inject his front feet at all, and instead just put him in Equioxx. I think next year I want to put him back in regular shoes, but then instead try injections to address the inflammation more locally. 

However, Dexter probably had very poor farrier care for most of his life, before I bought him. Which is probably the cause of his "navicular". Red, on the other hand, I have owned for a good portion of his life but he just had problems from day one.

When I look back now, I can really appreciate how SHORT STRIDED Red is, compared to Shotgun and Dexter. And I can recognize it in other horses. 

So...... long story short. You could dump a TON of money into Kodak, and you might not be any better off, LOL. I feel that's how it's been with Red. 

X-rays will not "rule out" navicular, because even if bony changes are not present, the horse can clearly have soft tissue problems that are the culprit of the pain. If you choose to do x-rays.... WHAT WILL IT CHANGE? How will you mange her differently? Maybe think of it that way. And yes, I would pay to consult a lameness vet to view the x-rays, and not your general vet. But a lameness vet can easily do that remotely. Of course, they just can't examine the horse in person. 

Kodak's feet could be better ..... but they aren't horrid either. Toes are too long, heels are uneven and not balanced, but not the end of the world. I think its absolutely fine to let someone else take a try, because they may do better. 

Since you don't ride her very often, it probably would not make sense to shoe her. And so your better choice might be to get her some nice hoof boots to use when you do ride her. 

Can you get Equioxx? You could also do a "trial" for a couple weeks, just to see how much of an improvement it gives her. Sure, you aren't finding out what exactly is bothering her, but it is at least an option to help her feel better when you do ride her.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Your horse's hooves are not balanced and she has stretched toe and heels that are way too far forward. That whole hoof needs to be brought back underneath her. I would treat her central sulci with oil of oregano, it will attack the bacteria but leave the healthy tissue. You really need somebody who knows how to balance a hoof. She's getting trimmed but not much else.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I agree with the others who think a better trimming job could help Kodak a lot.
It's no wonder you're fighting a losing battle with the central sulcus closing up because the heels are forward and long, keeping the weight bearing part of the hoof forward and the frogs off the ground. It's really difficult if not impossible to get a frog healthy with a forward hoof. The horse's weight and movement is a huge part of getting the frog healthy. 
Kodak would feel much better with her hoof grown down underneath her leg and less strain on the tendons.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

walkinthewalk said:


> The equine podiatrist should have a website and she should have her schooling & certifications listed. I would
> Ike to think she interned under someone highly qualified who knows their stuff.
> 
> Like Stephen O'Grady or Ric Redden, in the U.S., for example, but someone in Canada if she did not receive training in the U.S. Perhaps she even studied in Europe but all of that SHOULD be on a web page, if she has any sense in her head
> ...


She does have a website, and she earned a degree in Applied Equine Podiatry at U of Guelph (which has excellent equine medicine programs). It all sounds good, but I still have concerns about how long she will be here. She's clearly trying to establish herself here, but having just come from Ontario, I know it will be a challenge for her. Many have come and gone once they realize there isn't the money here that they hoped. She's been great with me, willing to work with me to develop a treatment program for Kodak, even cutting her fee down to half the regular price if I set up regular appointments for Kodak. She truly seems to care, is good with the horses, and I do like her approach. So I'll give her a chance, and hope she sticks around.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

beau159 said:


> Quite honestly, if you don't ride her much and you aren't going to rehome her .... is it honestly worth your money to find out what's wrong? (And that's coming from someone who spends way too much money on her fur babies, LOL.) Short choppy gait is different than one that's obviously lame/limping. And I don't mean to be disrespectful of the horse, but I also understand your money limitations and your vet limitations and I just don't know how much you'd want to spend and IF it would even give you any answers. Is she happy to go for a ride? Would she be fine continue "as is"?
> 
> 
> 
> Can you get Equioxx? You could also do a "trial" for a couple weeks, just to see how much of an improvement it gives her. Sure, you aren't finding out what exactly is bothering her, but it is at least an option to help her feel better when you do ride her.


Yes, I have to limit my spending as I have many other responsibilities, and we are still digging out of debt after my son's illness. Which is why I am considering loaning her out to my daughter's coach. Therefore yes, if I can make her better before I do that, then it might be worth it. I would not opt for shoes personally, but I know the coach uses a farrier for all her horses, and that he'll put shoes on her because that's just what he does. He may put corrective shoes on her. Not sure it's in her best interest, but it is possible that her spookiness will improve with lots of work so it's tempting for me to let her live there for a winter, get ridden lots, and see what happens. She might even be sellable at that point. 

As for Equioxx, Harley's already on it so I should be able to get more to try her on it. Hoof boots are a good option too, one that I like because it's easy and we've had great success with boots on Harley.

Speaking of Harley, I'm now looking at his feet thinking that his toes are even longer than Kodak's. I've always felt that his toes were too long, but I don't know enough about trimming to tell my trimmer what to do. The vet who diagnosed his arthritis even mentioned that his toes should be brought back to reduce the strain on his hocks.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

If the same person is trimming all the horses, then there's a chance they are all being trimmed with the same style. 

I've asked farriers to trim in certain ways, and some are very respectful and will change how they trim if you request certain changes. I usually say something like "This time I want to see if he is more comfortable with the heels brought back, could you take a look at that for me this time?" That might be a possibility, however it's also good to have the resource of the podiatrist. Perhaps there's a way you can work together to come out of this all better all together. Just a thought. 

They make frog inserts for the hoof boots that are supposed to be good for this kinda thing to help support the frog. One of the horses at the barn uses the frog wedges in his boots when he goes riding. I've thought about it but haven't taken the plunge yet. 

Are you interested in posting pictures of Harley's hooves we can take a look at? Does Rusty see the same farrier?


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

Personally I think xrays for sure - just for baseline that she will have with her for life. But mri and the rest? As said, proper hoof therapy and see how she is! I think its GOOD NEWS to know that there is something wrong her hoof shape because that's something that can be remedied and doesn't need an MRI. So first things first. I think you're amazing as always <3 It's hard to do the right thing.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

If it's a barefoot trimmer that relies on a Mustang roll to shorten the toe, I hate to tell you this, but they don't have the skills to bring back a toe and heel. They have been taught to "fake" by doing a Mustang roll, because it's easy to do and you don't have to know the internal structures of the hoof and where you can cut and angle your nippers. If the horse is balanced you don't need no roll, the horse will have its own natural break over.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> I would not opt for shoes personally, but I know the coach uses a farrier for all her horses, and that he'll put shoes on her because that's just what he does. He may put corrective shoes on her.



If this happens, x-rays can be very useful to help determine the type of corrective shoe. That's how we knew we do NOT want to go higher than 2 degrees for Dexter on his wedge, and why I"m not really sure if that was the best option for him. Can't say I noticed much difference, and he actually pulled way more shoes this year than he did when just wearing a plain shoe.


It's also how my farrier knows to slightly offset Red's left front shoe to the outside, to help him land/load more evenly, based on his conformation and his x-rays.


So x-rays can be very beneficial for a skilled farrier. But of course, that's always something they can do, if it comes down to it. 



Personally, I think that would be a great setting for Kodak to be with your coach all winter - having some steady experienced training. Not that you've done a bad job by any means, but well, you know!!


As for Equioxx, Harley's already on it so I should be able to get more to try her on it. Hoof boots are a good option too, one that I like because it's easy and we've had great success with boots on Harley.




Acadianartist said:


> Speaking of Harley, I'm now looking at his feet thinking that his toes are even longer than Kodak's. I've always felt that his toes were too long, but I don't know enough about trimming to tell my trimmer what to do. The vet who diagnosed his arthritis even mentioned that his toes should be brought back to reduce the strain on his hocks.



If one horse is trimmed that way, all of them probably are.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

That's odd, I have not known of one farrier who will only put on shoes. Shoes are a lot more work and you don't make enough money for work, I know, ask me how many trips to the anvil I make, and hammering. If my horses could show & school year round barefoot, I would not bother learning to shoe nuttin'!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

waresbear said:


> If it's a barefoot trimmer that relies on a Mustang roll to shorten the toe, I hate to tell you this, but they don't have the skills to bring back a toe and heel. They have been taught to "fake" by doing a Mustang roll, because it's easy to do and you don't have to know the internal structures of the hoof and where you can cut and angle your nippers. If the horse is balanced you don't need no roll, the horse will have its own natural break over.


I wouldn't judge how a trimmer does just on whether they do a mustang roll or not. Many of the ELPO barefoot trimmers will do a roll to finish the hoof off, but still know how to balance the trim based on the internal structures. 

If you don't round off the hoof wall, it can be sharp enough for the horse to cut his own leg on the inside and will be more prone to chipping. A barefoot horse will wear a smooth edge onto his hoof, which trimming takes away, so a trimmer should put it back on after trimming if the horse is not having shoes put on.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Agree with both of you. Nothing wrong with an appropriate 'mustang roll', but there are many 'barefoot trimmers' who have been taught that doing this is enough to correct any problems, and that is just plain ineffective in many cases.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Finishing off a hoof trim and a Mustang roll are too very different things, lol. When you finish a trim, there will be no sharp edges. Let the tool do the work....


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

@Acadianartist, if you are absolutely sure the coache's farrier only shoes --- do NOT let that farrier put shoes on your horse. IMHO, I wouldn't even send Kodak over there

I have seen farrier's in my lifetime that can "slap a shoe on" faster than some farrier's can do a good barefoot trim. They don't give a flip about the horse --- just "talking the talk" and impressing people who don't know any better but think they do.

Agree with so many others there is quite a bit wrong with Kodak's trim and it's a sure bet much of Harley's issues are compounded by equally poor trimming.

I know for fact with my Rusty, who has a minor club hoof, that thrush issues never went away until my new farrier came on board. Not even when I was trimming him because my mind just does not get the physics of that club hoof and how to trim it

I understand the $$$$ reason for not getting x-rays in the near future. I have had to shell several thousand dollars for a whole bunch of unscheduled events this last year, and it appears I'm not done yet. My Joker could benefit from new x-Rays but it simply is not going to happen. I am retired and on a fixed income. DH makes pretty decent money but it's a long way from "we hit the stupid big lottery" money.

So I understand your situation

The best you can do for now is to have the equine podiatrist evaluate Kodak -- actually I think she should evaluate all three horses hooves, if you can swing writing that big of a check. The fact the woman is willing to cut her fee way back speaks well of her integrity and heart to want to help your horse and not simply wave her hand over the issue, then ask for a check

If you really like your current farrier and she is open to learning from a bigger professional than she is -- I would invite her to be present when the podiatrist visits so she can learn what she clearly does not know -- how to put a good trim on a horse

You would also be learning and therefore able to keep an eye on things, if you feel your current farrier slipping back into an old and wrong routine

The reason I take so many pictures of hooves and bodies is because I don't always "see" what I am looking at. Giving things a mental rest for a few days, then looking at those pictures often helps me see things more clearly

Best wishes in getting this resolved


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

IF and i mean IF you put shoes on look at shoes like Ground controls. they allow the hoof to function properly and they cushin a bit. Our 34 year old is having issues with arthritis and they seam to help him considerably. also the hooves from the pics look stretched out and the frogs do not look healthy to me. toes seam long from the pics. 

i will agree that x rays would be good in the least. but dont discount trim and other factors. my arab was diagnosed with navicular by a vet. my other vet did not agree. 90% of her lameness has gone away with a more balanced trim and addressing ingrown bars. i know alot of people do not agree with "in grown bars" but since addressing them in my arab she has NOT has a 3 legged lame episode and is alot happier. did not "fix" her but she has not had episodes of being unable to walk 5 feet.

can we get pictures of the sides of the hooves on flat ground?


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Yeah... I'd get a different trimmer before worrying about radiographs at this point. That is not a quality trim, and could very well be the problem with your horses' soundness issues. I wouldn't worry about finding a 'barefoot trimmer' as much as finding a good trimmer. A lot of shady people hang out a 'barefoot trimmer' shingle and don't know squat about how a healthy foot should look, or how to get there from an unhealthy foot. They just rasp back the toe, trim the wall, and leave the rest of the foot alone. Which is fine if the horse has good feet-- not fine if something needs to be addressed. 

The EP sounds like a great place to start. I'm curious what she says.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Updating to say the Equine Podiatrist came yesterday and trimmed Kodak's hooves. They look very different! If I can find time, I'll try to get photos. We agreed that she is going to take over trimming Kodak in an effort to rehab her feet. She'll be coming fairly often for the next while so she can make gradual changes. We also agreed that X-rays may not be necessary if the trimming resolves the issue. 

She had a look at Harley's hooves and said he has very overrun heels. I always felt he had a lot of flare in his feet, but what do I know... however, for now, she'll just do Kodak. I need to see whether she will do a good job before I let her do all the horses. 

Meantime, a good horse friend of mine has told me about another barefoot trimmer that is apparently very good, and will come to our area. So that gives me a third option should the EP not work out.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

So glad that you -pursued this. If no one has ever told you this - please let me be the first. You are an exceptional owner. Your horses are so fortunate to have you in their lives. You never give up and are always looking out for them. Thank you!


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

So glad you found someone! hopefully Kodiak is feeling better soon!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I second that ^


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Acadian, you're getting the tapping of the feets from me, that you haven't posted pics of the fresh trim! :lol:



walkinthewalk said:


> If you really like your current farrier and she is open to learning from a bigger professional than she is -- I would invite her to be present when the podiatrist visits so she can learn what she clearly does not know -- how to put a good trim on a horse


Yes, I think this is a very good idea, and I think any trimmer who is conscientious about the job should value 'peer reviews' & continued learning from other professionals, regardless of the 'level' they're at. I've been doing this a while now, pretty sure of myself on the vast majority, and I jump at the chance of learning, other opinions, or even just the odd 'spot check' that I haven't 'strayed in my ways', from others on the horses I work on. I've also offered my clients, on occasion, if they have issues or such, to have other farriers in instead of me & I'll come just to watch & listen. That's always interesting.



> The reason I take so many pictures of hooves and bodies is because I don't always "see" what I am looking at. Giving things a mental rest for a few days, then looking at those pictures often helps me see things more clearly


Yes, absolutely! I find it really valuable. While I 'go on' here about pics(alone) not giving you an accurate enough idea, sometimes they can give you a fresh, different perspective than hoof/horse in hand did at the time, which can be a real eye opener. Pics are also great for seeing what changes over time are going on too.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks so much @carshon. I have gotten very discouraged with Kodak, but I haven't quite given up on her. Your comment warms my heart. I really just want what's best for her, whether she stays with me or not. 

I know you all want pics... maybe tomorrow morning! I'll try. Work is just crazy busy, and it's going to stay that way for a bit. It's just the time of year. So when I get home, I have a pile of things to do, and hoof pics are low on the list.

However, I DID ride Kodak tonight. The Equine Podiatrist asked me to ride her a couple of times before her next visit to see if she is improving. I have to say, it was the best ride I've had on Kodak in a long time! She was far from perfect, but by golly, I first thought I would just ride her briefly to say that I did, but then I wanted to keep going! Sure, her movements are still a bit stiff and choppy, but she didn't throw her head, stop suddenly, put her head between her legs, or even spook. In fact, after the initial jumpy bursts of trotting, she settled into a fairly comfortable trot and was quite content to keep going. Her steering was better (she is usually pretty crooked which makes her hard to steer) and we did a bunch of big circles, then serpentines, then some straight lines... much better. Now, I'm not jumping up and down with excitement just yet - one good ride doesn't mean that much. But it's something... I probably haven't had such a good ride on her in over a year. 

So I'll try to post those pics, and hopefully you'll all agree that her hooves are better because if you all say they're still horrible, then I don't know what to think anymore. 

Thanks again to all of you who patiently keep pushing me in the right direction.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The very early signs of improvement sound promising.
If money wasn’t an issue I would still have XRays done but as the horse is more of a companion anyway then I understand your reluctance, though I wonder how much of her problems under saddle have been a result of discomfort in her feet.
Incorrect trimming for a long time will have a domino effect on the rest of the leg.

It’s unfortunate that people are allowed to call themselves hoof trimmers and even farriers in some countries, without the need for a qualification.
A lot of the certificates they flaunt are worthless and might even be from completing some online course without ever touching a real hoof under the watchful eye of a correctly trained professional.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

jaydee said:


> .
> A lot of the certificates they flaunt are worthless *and might even be from completin**g some online course without ever touching a real hoof under the watchful eye of a correctly trained professional*.


Ahhhhh!! "Once Upon A Time". There was a "barefoot" trimmer in my area, with business cards set out at feed stores, etc. by all accounts, he was fairly decent.

Come to find out, he never had previous, first hand hoof trimming experience --- he had BORROWED (didn't even buy his own) some Pete Ramey DVD's, studied them, then put out his shingle, so-to-speak.

Not a thing wrong with learning additional info from DVD's if it's someone wanting to expand their training, or any of us wanting to learn how to trim *our own* horses. Borrowing DVD's to learn to trim for profit is not very ethical, IMHO --


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Totally agree Walkinthewalk. 
When you consider that a human podiatrist has to do a 4 year degree course to be able to mess around with our feet, and we can shout out when we feel it’s feeling wrong and hurting us, it’s pretty scary that someone who’s watched a few videos and read some articles can be allowed to charge for their services

That old saying ‘no foot no horse’ has a lot of truth in it


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jaydee said:


> It’s unfortunate that people are allowed to call themselves hoof trimmers and even farriers in some countries, without the need for a qualification.
> A lot of the certificates they flaunt are worthless and might even be from completing some online course without ever touching a real hoof under the watchful eye of a correctly trained professional.


Yes, I'm all for better regulation, to at least ensure people have a solid base knowledge, but over here at least & in US I hear, just because someone has formal qualifications at a 'real' farrier school doesn't necessarily mean their knowledge is worth much. I've seen many terrible egs from 'properly qualified' farriers & I've heard qualified farriers say the vast majority of the course is on how to bang metal, not much on biomechanics & other factors. 

So... regardless where/how someone has learned, it shouldn't be taken for granted on blind faith that they know what they're on about, any more than you should assume lack of formal qualifications means lack of skill & knowledge.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I've worked for people who thought nothing of 'hanging their shingle' just after watching me trim their horses a few times! Had a couple who said they wanted to learn to trim their own do this. First I heard were from irate clients who blamed me for 'letting them out' because they said they had learned from me!


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I know several "certified" farriers, even one who is certified in Germany, who will not touch my horses feet, period. There was a farrier program here who is churning out some of the worst work I have seen, however they forged some really nice shoes, lol. Never taught balancing, leaving hooves short shod, underslung heels, you name it. Whether the instructor taught this or just certified the people that went through the program, I don't know. The German farrier apparently was taught by the same guidelines. Of all the farriers I have seen, there is exactly three that I would allow to touch my horses feet, and one of them would just be for trimming she wouldn't be putting on shoes because she's sloppy that way. Only one of those three is actually certified and that was years ago, however he does attend all the farrier seminars in the off-season (winter). He says he picks up a few techniques here and there, but he said most of it is somebody hired by a company trying to sell some new product so you have to take their advice with a grain of salt. I am not a farrier nor do I have any desire to be one, but somehow I ended up with five clients because their horses were having problems. These people were my friends, so I trimmed their horses, big surprise every single one of the horses that were having problems with lameness became sound. In fact my farrier who is not taking on any new clients, recommended me to the vet to trim a ladies horses feet as he would not, he was way too busy. I have been trimming that horse for a over a year now, the Tennessee Walker is sound. It's not magic, it's knowledge of what a hoof needs to be like, knowing how to achieve it and of course using the tools properly and working through pain when your back is killing you. I will say I am very lucky to have two very skilled farriers spend hours teaching me things. If I knew I could depend on a farrier to come out the next day after I call and do trims and shoes to my standards whenever I want, I would sell my tools and hang up my apron! Sorry for hijacking your thread Acadian, I'm waiting for your pictures so I got bored, lol.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

No worries @waresbear! heading out to the barn now to take pictures.

But to be perfectly clear, my regular trimmer did take a course, and keeps up with her certification. I thought she knew what she was doing. This is not just someone who hung out a shingle, she has actually studied barefoot trimming, so I am terribly disappointed right now, but the horses come first.

Off to take pics now... I swear


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I believe that the ‘real’ farrier school in the US and the one in Canada is the same, do a 20 week course. Compare that to the course to be a human podiatrist and it’s explains why there are so many poor farriers as well as poor trimmers.
In many EU countries, including the U.K., the courses are 4 years.
Certification is worth nothing if the course wasn’t credible.

The horse owning public need to be protected from these frauds.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

this is why i started trimming our horses. i find the ABC method has worked best for our horses. fixed my arab up a bit. but now i cant trim and finding a farrier who actually trims and dose not let the bar smear reach the toe is impossible. the the certified anything farriers in this state are worth nothing as i have seen their work first hand. nothing says good farrier like slapping shoes on a horse with out trimming it when it is ALREADY 8 weeks in its trimming cycle. poor thing went 16 weeks without a proper trim. and the owner wondered why it was lame...


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I don't have a problem with a 20-week course, show them how to do a balanced trim, how to properly shape a shoe and fit it to a hoof, how to size a hoof to a shoe. Why are they teaching them to forge a shoe? Who would do such a stupid thing when you can buy keg shoes all day long!!!?? Forging a shoe should be called metal work or something, we don't need no old-timey blacksmiths anymore! Some of it though I think is laziness on the part of the farrier or trimmer, it is more difficult to balance a hoof, rather than just trim it. if you start taking down heels and bringing back toe and you don't know exactly what you're doing, yeah the horse is going to be sore. I see posts on here saying not to take the heel down in one fell swoop, if you don't know how to balance, yeah don't do that, if you know how to balance, you have to do that. Why don't those farrier schools teach that?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Acadianartist said:


> I'm actually thinking about treating her as if she has navicular. Putting her in hoof boots, treating her frog as if it might have some deep thrush, and seeing what happens. Regardless, given our history together, it's unlikely I will ride her much. However, I have the opportunity to loan her out to my daughter's coach. No cost to me, the coach is maybe thinking she could put the occasional rider on her (she just put two of hers down, and already has a horse with navicular who is one of the favorites at the barn, so that doesn't scare her off). It's likely she would end up wearing shoes if I do this, however. But the coach thinks her issues are behavioral, and that she'd improve with regular work. I trust this coach, and her horses are very well-loved and cared-for, but we don't always have the same approach. I'll admit, she is vastly more experienced than me though. Her mother bred Arabians, so she has literally always had horses. And there's no way of knowing whether this would make Kodak better or worse, and at the very least, shoes might give her some protection, even if that's not what I'd do. If it's a disaster, I bring her back home. I don't like the idea of trailering her, but would likely ask the coach and her husband to do it because I'd have too much anxiety about it, and Kodak would feed off it. The coach is confident they can get it done.
> 
> Decisions, decisions.


It sounds like Kodak has gotten much worse then she used to be!! It sounds like some time with a job might just do her (and you) a world of good! I think she would benefit a lot from having a confident and experienced leader who isn't phased by her antics. And maybe if (and I think when) she settles down this would be a good way to sell her. I think she would do well with the right match, just as you're much happier working with Rusty not every good horse/good home is a good match.

As far as her feet I think go for it, but it's a good point that if it won't change what you do maybe not worth it. If you do it I'd want it done right, no point in having someone who doesn't know read an xray!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

ETA- can't wait for post trim pictures! That really can make a world of difference for some horses!! I agree the previous pics weren't terrible but were definitely "lacking". Crossing fingers!!! And yes, hope to see some improvement in the others too, it will likely help Harley out quite a bit!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Pictures finally. I took some two nights ago, and my camera battery died in the middle of them, so had to take more last night, and just getting around to posting them now. Now it seems there are some missing (maybe when my camera died, I lost some pics?). Sorry, life is extra crazy this week and next. 

This is a few days after the trim, and keep in mind, it's a first trim in an effort to bring back Kodak's hooves to what they should be according to the EP. I don't see much of a difference, do you? I do think the hooves are a little more "upright" and the toes less pointed. She rasped the wall of the hoof to take the toe back, which shocked me a little, to be honest, because I always thought you weren't supposed to touch the outer wall... but apparently I don't know much about hooves, so please tell me I'm wrong. 

Left front.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Missed one from the left front.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Right front.

Argh... just realized I mixed up the pics. So the hoof with the light and dark striations is on the left. Sorry.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Those are better, the toe and heel are brought back under her. I would like to see more bar removed but it look like it's cleaned it up a bit. Decent trim.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Yogiwick said:


> It sounds like Kodak has gotten much worse then she used to be!! It sounds like some time with a job might just do her (and you) a world of good! I think she would benefit a lot from having a confident and experienced leader who isn't phased by her antics. And maybe if (and I think when) she settles down this would be a good way to sell her. I think she would do well with the right match, just as you're much happier working with Rusty not every good horse/good home is a good match.
> 
> As far as her feet I think go for it, but it's a good point that if it won't change what you do maybe not worth it. If you do it I'd want it done right, no point in having someone who doesn't know read an xray!


In some ways she's worse, but in some ways she's better. She hasn't spooked in ages. I mean, she had a little sideways jump when I rode her the other night, but it wasn't a spook in my book, not compared to what she used to do (spin, then bolt, then spin again until you fall off). So in terms of her temperament under saddle, she's calmer, and much more pleasant to ride. On the other hand, she's had this issue for about a year where when we ask her for an up transition (to trot sometimes, but mostly to canter), she will do a few strides, then come to a stop with her two front legs locked in front of her and her head down like she's going to buck. This behavior is new, and this is what I'm hoping we can resolve. If so, then she could make a good horse for my daughter's coach's advanced riders. And yes, that will give me more time with Rusty who needs lots of miles. And I do enjoy him a lot more because while he does throw in the occasional unexpected maneuver, I never feel like I'm going to die on him. He took off on the trail again the other day because a branch fell, and I was able to easily pull him up from a canter (we didn't go in the trees this time, lol), turn him around, and go back to look at the scary branch, then he was fine. In other words, I feel he is within my ability to handle, whereas Kodak is just too sensitive.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I'd really want to see some good padding under the front of those feet. Soles look way thin.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

loosie said:


> I'd really want to see some good padding under the front of those feet. Soles look way thin.


Yes, they are. The EP hopes that good trimming will help thicken the soles, but hoof boots are a distinct possibility.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

if alot of bar and dead sole are left on for long periods of time it can effect healthy sole. with the removal of all the built up crap hopefully the hoof can recover. boots. if she needs left in them at all i HIGHLY recommend putting some sort of thrush killer in her hooves right before booting.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

That is a much better trim and will lead to healthier frogs and the hooves growing down better with thicker soles. All of that will take a while, but this is the way to get there. 

If sore hooves have been making her more sensitive, this might eventually make her more calm and less reactive. It might only be a 10% difference, but still she will feel better. That might also be the difference between someone having a horse that is quite manageable for them, even if she is still a bit reactive for you.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Acadian, I would go liberal with the oil of oregano on the sole. I've seen that stuff work wonders on a horse that had hooves like Kodiak. Stubborn thrush in the central sulci, owner was using kopertox, I had heard about the oil so I said well try it, got nothing to lose. Within days the thrush was gone. And like your horse, this horse had thin soles because I had to carve a lot out of the toe to take it back. About two days later she was riding the horse barefoot in her round pen, I was sold on the oil then. 
Sometimes sensitive horses have a pain issue and act out in other ways, one of my horse developed ulcers and I thought I had treated them but obviously not. He was not himself he started to just go off the rails. I gave him a couple years off of showing, treated for hindgut ulcers, he's back to where he was. Hopefully you caught Kodiaks problem and she will turn out to be a solid citizen.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

And putting shoes on your horse is not the devil. If the horses hooves are healthy, the shoes are just there to protect the hooves from the ground underneath, not every horse can be a perfect barefoot horse all the time. In my experience, a larger horse with smaller or normal sized hooves, worked heavily will usually need shoes for at least part of the year.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

1. The hooves look better.

2. When attempting to rehab hooves for any reason, one does NOT want to see a huge change in one fell swoop. Too much change too fast, generally results in a sore/lame horse, then everybody is upset.

3. As others have commented, the trim is an improvement,mthe hooves are heading in the right direction.

3.1. Make yourself a folder for Kodak's hooves and put the Before and After pictures you have on this thread, in that folder. Keep taking pics after each trim the EP does. That is the best way to see the difference in her hooves. Eyes lie (there's a song about that, lollol), pictures do not

*Wares,* interesting about the oil of oregano. I think I will add that to my hoof arsenal


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## ArizonaSun (Oct 13, 2019)

My last horse had navicular syndrome. He was a big horse with small feet. I first noticed something might be wrong when he would point with one or the other of his front feet while standing still. Without taking you down that road with a full narrative, it took awhile to come to the realization that MRI's were needed. We first did the portable x-rays, but they weren't conclusive. My horse wasn't accustomed to regularly riding in a trailer, but a friend agreed to transport him. He wasn't happy about being loaded, but we got him in and to the vet hospital where it was done, and the problem was diagnosed. Strange thing was, even with all that discomfort, when he spotted a llama on a neighboring property, he galloped around like there was not a thing wrong. Flight was more important than pain. That's the thing about navicular. Horses can have good days and bad, and if the flight instinct kicks in you would swear they were faking their lameness at other times, but its real. I opted for corrective shoeing that relieved him for quite some time, plus we gave him supplements in his feed, but approximately five years into it he needed to be put to sleep because we couldn't manage it any longer.

I completely understand your hesitancy to start therapies or obtain diagnostics when there is no guaranty there will be a clear outcome, but it seems you've tried a lot of different things and still don't have a conclusive answer. It might be time for an MRI.


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