# Selling horses that were given to me...



## bmgaag2009 (Nov 11, 2015)

Ill try and keep everything to the point with minimal blabbering. Looking for insight on the situation. I was given two horses almost a month ago. I have it in writing via personal message that she was GIVING me the horses. At time I received them, I had no intentions of selling or giving them away anytime in the near future. I am sure I probably SAID to her, that I wouldnt be selling them any time soon. NBecause I really didnt think I would be. Down the line, maybe, but this soon - no way. NOTHING in writing in regard to not selling them, or giving them back to her should I decide not to keep them.

The same day, a fella I know also got two horses for her - he paid $200 - she worded it as buy one get one free (in writing in the personal message). Two of the horses (the colt I took, and the filly he took) were extremely thin. Hard to SEE the thinness due to the wooly winter coats (minis), but EASILY felt... both horses could literally be picked up - at 3 yrs and 1.5 yrs old. The mare I took, and the mare he took were also a little thin, but no where near as bad as the two young ones. My mare had a foal almost 4 months prior. Owner weaned foal in the weeks leading up to me taking her. All horses are now on the mend and slowly getting their weight back on, right as we are getting ready to head into the dead of winter. Feet also had to be trimmed (about 3 months over due per my farrier - other guys amish farrier feels his filly may have never had her feet done but no way to know for sure... none of them were "horror book" elf slippers or anything like that....but definitely in need of a trim). The original filly she offered to give me died "unexpectedly" - which is what led to her offering me the colt and then the mare as well - her offer to me, not a request of mine. The also previously mentioned this filly was tiny tiny... which leads me to a speculation on her COD after seeing the other little ones. But no way to no for sure... pure speculation on my part. I do not believe this woman intentionally put her horses in this situation. I think it was more lack of knowledge, bad information being given or people sugar coating things, and just having the blinders on. Several of her other horses were in much better condition than the ones we got... boss mares hogging the round bale maybe? Who knows. 

I should also mention I paid for a horse this summer from her, who was a little bit thin at time of purchase, but after 4 months here is now round and happy.

OK. Fast forward a few weeks. An unforeseen circumstance has me in a situation where I really should be proactive in making some really hard, but necessary choices about my lifes future. This includes the thought of downsizing my herd (from horses to rabbits to chickens to dogs) to PREVENT getting into a situation where I was desperate to find them a home - any home- in the dead of winter. SO, I decided to list all but one of my horses (which included the other mare I paid for earlier this year) for sale for a respectable amount ($250colt/$350mare/$450other mare I paid for) to deter the wrong type of people, and hopefully attract someone who could continue the two on their road to recovery. I was honest in the ad about their current body conditions and that I have not had them long. With having a reasonable asking price and posting before I got desperate, I hoped I would have ample time to pick the RIGHT home, for hopefully a more long term home. Better to choose when you arent backed into a corner of how you will feed them the next day, right? 

This evening, I received a message from the woman asking why I was selling them, and that she wanted them back. I told her why I had listed them all for sale. She got angry and demanded I give them back. And that she would get ahold of the guy who transported them and find out when he could pick them up. I informed her they would not be leaving my property, and that for th etime being I would keep them and removed all for sale ads. She continued to tell me I had no right to sell them and I had to give them back. That she would not have given them to me if she knew I was going to sell them EVER. Finally, I told her why I was not willing to just give them back to her (because of their conditions). That is when she brought up suing me and lawyers etc. I told her we would see what the judge said. She said her lawyer said to give her $650 and then they would be mine to do what I wished with, I told her I wasnt going to just hand over X amount of dollars 'because her lawyer said so'. Finally she blocked me after saying her lawyer would be in touch and he advised her to stop talking to me. 

IF these horses were in good condition, I probably would be considering giving at least the two she gave to me, back. But I cant, in good conscience send them back. At least here, for the time being (until I know what is going to go on with court....I dont want to leave them for sale then really be in trouble), I know they will continue to gain weight and be cared for. 

Question's being - Does she have a case? Can I legally sell these two horses? Again, no real contract, though it is in writing (type) that she GAVE me the horses, with nothing about not selling or taking them back. I understand it really stinks I am in this situation so soon after she just gave them to me - but no one has a crystal ball to the future. I dont really have a lot of money to hire lawyers and fight a long battle in court- but will find a way, somehow, to do it if I have to. A 'friend' (who was talking back and forth with her apparently) informed me she has "alot of pull" and wasnt sure if that was my "best option" to fight her in court. 

Any insight?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Without a contract in place then I guess you can 'legally' do what you want, but morally, well this just sounds wrong. If I had if given a horse away to a forever home, only to see it listed for sale a short time later, I would be beyond angry.

Interesting that you took two of them on for nothing, but now you want to sell them to make sure they go to the right place, rather than giveng them away again.

As I say I'm no lawyer, so I don't know the correct answer for you.


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## bmgaag2009 (Nov 11, 2015)

I do understand morally it is a little messed up with the timing of it all. But, I didnt know a month ago that I would be in the situation I am in now. 

I put prices on them to deter some of the animal hoarders in the area away from them. If the right home came along, I would probably drop the price down to cover just what I have into them for feed/farrier/care. Am I going to advertise that - no. Not around here. But I was hoping I could better screen potential owners. Maybe a 4H family would come along looking for a pony for their kids... then I COULD consider just giving them away or just to cover the expenses. I guess I probably should have mentioned that as a possibility in the post... about half way through I realized I was getting kind of lengthy and was trying to get to the point so to speak. Again though, if they were in good condition at the former home, the first thing I would have done is contact them. But I honestly dont feel that is a great place to let them go back to knowingly.

ETA: Never did I tell her I would promise to "keep them forever". No one can truely say that. I had no intentions of ANY horses going ANYWHERE ANYTIME soon, but, crap happens. Before the crap hits the fan, I was trying to be proactive so as not to be stuck between a rock and a hard place 6 months from now. Around here, it honestly is hard to give away any horse this time of year.... so in reality, It is highly unlikely I would really get anywhere near the prices I put on any of them.. not even the fat happy, kid tested horse.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

So, let me get this straight . . .

A lady who is at least a borderline abusive/hoarder (doesn't matter why she is) gave you some horses in bad shape. 

You don't have any piece of paper saying they are legally yours. 

Now you want to sell them and she wants them back. 

I think if she is willing to go to court for them, it could be a long-drawn-out thing. 

Not a lawyer. Just an opinion -- people who keep animals without being able to feed or care for them, and then desperately want them back, are people you won't be happy about getting mixed up with in the legal system. Rationality is not going to be their long suit.


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## bmgaag2009 (Nov 11, 2015)

Is the personal message where she said she was giving them to me something that legally proves they are now mine? Below are a few exerpts from her messages where she repeatedly says she was giving them to me: 

"I have some upsetting news. I found Pinkie pie dead this am. I am so upset. Not sure if you want to take Buddy the colt now instead I would let him go for free if you would like. Let me know."


"so you want the colt buddy? You will Love him he is so laid back has no mean bone in his body. Do you have room for one more smile emoticon I would give you Lane the buckskin. Shes buddys mom. I would give you her as well if you took both of them. With me having my optical shop I don't have the time. I would see if He wanted Jazzmine who is the fillys mom hes taking. He can take both of them for the price I told him for the filly. so buy one get one free smile emoticon. You bought one so if you wanted two free that would be good. smile emoticon just a thought"


and then there is all the talk about when to pick them up, and then talk about how they were doing afterwards etc. I have all of the messages; but scanned briefly to find two examples of what I am talking about


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

From reading what she wrote I would think they are yours to do with as you please. I am not a lawyer though.

I also don't think it's a moral issue. They were in a neglectful home, I wouldn't want them to go back either. It would be one thing if you took free horses and then turned around and took them to the sale barn to get what you could per pound but it sounds like to me you want to find them good homes. I don't see your situation as being any different from a person buying a cheap horse, giving it a tune-up and then selling it for more money. Lots of people do this.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

She gave them to you and you have proof of that. They are no longer hers.


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## bmgaag2009 (Nov 11, 2015)

Thankyou both for your insight! 

I know no one here is a lawyer, so I understand no one can "say for sure" , but I appreciate the opinions and insight!


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## ManicMini (May 4, 2015)

I agree 100% with JCnGrace. She didn't have the time, means and possibly the know how to properly care for them. I also don't see the moral issue with this. If anything the moral issue is her demanding the horses back for free, after they've been in your care and are in better condition for it. If she were insistent on getting them back, i'd charge her board and feed costs associated with keeping them for the time you've had them. Even then, since another horse had already died in her care under suspicious circumstances, i'd be hesitant to let her regain custody of them.

The lawyer talk could be a bluff and i'd send her a certified letter through the mail stating that she cease communications with you from this point on. Anything else that needs to be settled, can be settled through the court.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I don't know how many times people have walked into our law office to pursue a complaint, only to leave when they found out that they had to pay for it.
Don't worry. Do as you see fit.
I am sorry for your loss, because I know it hurts, even though you haven't had either of them very long.


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

Possession is 9/10ths of the law and you have communications from her saying outright that she was giving the horses to you. Not "until I want them back", not "after you've paid out money feeding and fixing them up"- "giving" implies they are now yours to do with as you please. 

Make sure you have receipts from your vet/farrier work, any feed or hay you have bought, and check to see what local pricing is on board. You can go back saying "You gave me these horses, so if you want them back, their price is now in accordance with fair market value as well as what I have spent on their care since I've had them." 

You might consult with a lawyer of your own, often they'll do a 30-minute consultation for a minimal or no fee.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

The text is legal and hopefully you have a receipt or cancelled cheque for the other. Ignore her demands. Animals cannot be sold with conditional buy backs even if one is written up and signed. It's just not honored in court. They are your animals, you've invested time and money and yours to sell or give away. If this woman feels they are hers, then let her know the going rate for board which you'd have to be paid, first. That a judge would support in court. Yours isn't a rare case but all too common.


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## bmgaag2009 (Nov 11, 2015)

Thank you all! I am relieved to hear that I am not in the wrong for refusing the just give them back to her. Having to consider parting with ANY of my horses is not something I had planned on happening any time soon. 

I know her lawyer is also her brother in law - she was apparently on the phone with him while messaging me all the threats and demands. 

I will look into finding a lawyer who would give me a consult for a minimal amount just to be sure of what I need to do on my end. 

I will also get a draft together of all moneys put into them, average board, and feed/farrier costs. Just to have it on hand should this end up going to court. I do have a bill of sale for the mare I paid for in July. Nothing in hand writing on the two I got for free; just the personal messages like I copied and pasted from above. 

I'll stop advertising anyone for sale (including the one I did pay for) for the time being; to see if this is all just empty threats and demands or if it will be pursued.


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

If she doesn't have the money to care for them properly, you can bet she doesn't have the money for a lawyer, especially on a flimsy situation involving no real money to recoup. Lawyers don't work for free and they don't care for cases where they're not likely to make anything. 

I don't think you need to worry. They are yours. Unless she's your best friend and you have a relationship to preserve, I wouldn't worry.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Do what you want, she's all talk.
Even if she does get a lawyer that doesn't mean you have to. If it gets to court (doubtful) just show up with your messages. Include pictures of how they looked when you got them.


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## bmgaag2009 (Nov 11, 2015)

I really wish we werent heading into winter - I would shave the colt to make it easier to see his true condition. Pictures dont show the reality of how thin he really is. Hands on you can easily tell. I may have to have a few people who have seen them in person write a statement on their condition. 

Elle - No personal friendship with her - but I know she "knows" people... so I am sure I will be the "bad guy" in that clique of folks around town... but I know the reality of their condition, so I dont mind being the bad guy here. 

How long should I wait before listing them? I figure a few weeks should give her ample time to have any papers served to me if thats what she is really doing (Im sure the Brother in Law lawyer will give her a "deal" as far as lawyer fees go)... but I dont want to waste too much time waiting when I could be screening possible homes for them. But it could sting her - the longer I have them, the better they will be weight wise, and I will be able to put some basic training into them - thus making them worth more theoretically... if she is worried about me just selling them to make money; I would definitely be waiting until they were in better shape... I highly doubt she would pursue it if she learns she will likely have to pay ME to get them back (considering board, feed, etc). But you never know... she might... if a court ruled that way in the end.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Use a weight tape & video for documentation. If you want something more professional have a vet body score them.
What lawyer would take her losing case especially as there wouldn't be much, if any, money in it for them.
So she knows people, big deal, so do you & the people you know also got horses from her.


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

bmgaag2009 said:


> Thank you all! I am relieved to hear that I am not in the wrong for refusing the just give them back to her. Having to consider parting with ANY of my horses is not something I had planned on happening any time soon.
> 
> I know her lawyer is also her brother in law - she was apparently on the phone with him while messaging me all the threats and demands.
> 
> ...


Keep all communications for now. Just in case.


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

bmgaag2009 said:


> I really wish we werent heading into winter - I would shave the colt to make it easier to see his true condition. Pictures dont show the reality of how thin he really is. Hands on you can easily tell. I may have to have a few people who have seen them in person write a statement on their condition.
> 
> Elle - No personal friendship with her - but I know she "knows" people... so I am sure I will be the "bad guy" in that clique of folks around town... but I know the reality of their condition, so I dont mind being the bad guy here.
> 
> How long should I wait before listing them? I figure a few weeks should give her ample time to have any papers served to me if thats what she is really doing (Im sure the Brother in Law lawyer will give her a "deal" as far as lawyer fees go)... but I dont want to waste too much time waiting when I could be screening possible homes for them. But it could sting her - the longer I have them, the better they will be weight wise, and I will be able to put some basic training into them - thus making them worth more theoretically... if she is worried about me just selling them to make money; I would definitely be waiting until they were in better shape... I highly doubt she would pursue it if she learns she will likely have to pay ME to get them back (considering board, feed, etc). But you never know... she might... if a court ruled that way in the end.


I think you can easily prove that any 'profit' was eaten up by 'costs'. If you want to sell and find a good prospective owner, then go ahead. By that time that woman will have had time to sort herself out.

Get a vet or farrier (or other professional) to write a statement about the animals' condition as evidence in your favour at a later date. Also the fella that transported them.

With a bit of luck the woman will let it go. Work out what they have cost you since you got them home (any vet, farrier, feed, tack, price your time-or some of it anyway ...) and tell her she can have them back for your costs. I think you will find she won't bother.


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## bmgaag2009 (Nov 11, 2015)

Thanks everyone! i took more photos last night, and will work on a video also in the next day or two. 

Ive tallied up the basic costs already, and minimal board fees - And that already equals the $600 I would get IF I were to get/take the full asking price I listed them at.. but like I said, The prices were just a starting point - the right home could get them for less. 

I will see if the farrier will put anything in writing - I am not sure if he will because he is also her farrier (though he told me he only goes to her place every third time he comes to mine) and may not want to get legally involved in anything... but I will not know unless I ask him. 

The kid who transported them is not the same person who got the other two. The transporter is a "good friend" of hers, and tells her there is nothing wrong with her horses, or attributes it to hard keepers etc. One example of people sugar coating things to her. So I highly doubt he would put anything in writing. 

But, maybe I can find a neutral farrier or trainer to come and give me a statement on their condition. I honestly have not had a vet out yet, as I reserve the outrageous fees for emergencys and spring shots. They seem to be healthy besides the lack of weight... now if the colt wasnt gaining, or there was an obvious problem, they would be called... but for now I am taking his increase in alertness and energy as a sign he is gaining and there isnt anything else going on. I know he doesnt feel like he is going to tip over when I give him a nudge to move over anymore 

I also have our entire messages saved and printed out to have handy when/if the time comes to need them


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

If you can't get professional opinions try and get a couple of independent knowledgeable horse people to 'witness' their condition. Ideally someone respected in the community.


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## bmgaag2009 (Nov 11, 2015)

That is what I am going to try and do today and tomorrow. This is where I find out how many people she really "knows" and how big her "pull" is.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

While might be legally safe with what you are doing, I think by selling these horses you are morally wrong.

She gave these horses to you on good faith that you would take care of them. I suppose she realized that maybe you could take care of them better than she could. Common, you should never have taken the horses, sounds like you are in just as bad of shape as she is. 

You had no idea 30 days ago that you would be selling the horses??????????? Whole thing sounds fishy. Sounds like she was doing right by the horses by finding them a "good" home, unfortunately she picked the wrong "good" home.

You sound like a horse flipper to me. Ethically, You owe her the horses or the money.


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## bmgaag2009 (Nov 11, 2015)

I AM taking care of the horses. Much better than they have been cared for. The mare I bought earlier this year was also thin. I am not in bad shape at the moment - but I want to PREVENT getting in bad shape 6 months from now. I am not rushing to sell the horses - if I was, I would have sold them the day I listed them to a local hoarder who wanted them. I turned them away because I KNOW they will NOT be in a better home. I listed them NOW that a change in my life has come to light. I listed them now, BEFORE I was desperate, so that I would have ample time to find the best home possible for them - not the first person to come along with cash. Realistically, it is highly unlikely I WILL be able to sell them for any amount this time of year. Like I said, people are giving away horses and other hay burning animals all over the place this time of year.... Heck if I was a flipper, Id really be able to fill the barn up and start making some money by reselling everything. Yes, that was sarcasm. But, there is truth behind the reality of the possibility of being able to do that if I so chose (which I dont). 

Any way, I do appreciate your opinion, and if the circumstances were different, I would probably agree with you. But, considering the condition they were in when I got them, and the unforeseen changes coming ahead in my life, I do have a different opinion on the whole matter - as we all do 

ETA: Have you ever sold a horse, for any reason?


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Sounds like the women has some sort of hoarding or similar problem, because of how she was keeping the horses in such poor conditions. That alone could mentally make her more difficult to deal with because she doesn't think "like the rest of us". She knew her horses didn't look good (from the sounds of it) yet she either didn't have the means to take care of them, or just simply didn't do it. I certainly don't mean that in a negative tone, but it is what it is. Watch one episode of "Hoarders" and you can see how people just don't think rationally because they are consumed by their particular problem. 

With that said, I don't think she has a legal leg to stand on. You have written proof that she gave you the horses, free and clear. They are yours. If she wants to put up a fight to get them back then she's going to have to reimburse you for your TIME that you cared for the horses, farrier, hay, board, etc. And you can charge whatever you want for board in a case like that (even if it's outrageous). If she didn't have the money to properly take care of her horses in the first place, chances are she won't have the money to pay you what is owed. (or pay an attorney .... unless she can get BIL to do it for free).

With that said ..... I don't entirely blame her for being very angry with you. She gave you the horses, thinking that you were going to keep them and take care of them. I also do find it strange that your financial situation has suddenly flipped in a couple weeks. You dont make it sound like you had a big medical or family emergency; you're just finally "coming to your senses" about what you can realistically afford. And that's the part that seems fishy about the whole thing. I know you aren't asking a crazy amount for the horses and probably do have good intentions to find them a good home, but I can see the woman's perspective on this one. 

How would *you *feel if you DID sell one of the horses, and a few weeks later you see the horse listed for sale, for a couple hundred bucks more?

Not saying the person doesn't have a legal right to sell a horse whenever they see fit for any reason .... but it still sparks an emotion.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

To the original poster - I applaud you for realizing that you may be in a position a few months from now that you cannot care for these horses. Regardless of what anyone else here says you are taking responsibility for them and looking out for their future. I can go buy a horse today and get in a car accident a week from now and have to sell the horse. Once you own that horse it is yours. Whether it was free or not. For those claiming this is morally wrong - phooey - at least she is taking action BEFORE she is unable to care for them in a few months time.


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

carshon said:


> To the original poster - I applaud you for realizing that you may be in a position a few months from now that you cannot care for these horses. Regardless of what anyone else here says you are taking responsibility for them and looking out for their future. I can go buy a horse today and get in a car accident a week from now and have to sell the horse. Once you own that horse it is yours. Whether it was free or not. For those claiming this is morally wrong - phooey - at least she is taking action BEFORE she is unable to care for them in a few months time.


We have been in a position where finances took a sudden turn for the worse due to no fault of our own. We had no clue dh's job would have suddenly ended. It happens.

A friend and I recently rescued a horse where the owner let the horse decline into HORRID condition BEFORE trying to fin it a new home. 

More people need to be as responsible as the OP


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

bmgaag2009 said:


> ETA: Have you ever sold a horse, for any reason?


Never within a month of being given them..I DID sell one that i was given, but I had paid 2 months training on him, before we decided that he wasn't going to work out....

Again, purely from the outsiders point of view, without knowing anything about the situation...

Recently there was a long ongoing saga of someone who didn't want to pay for a horse for various reasons....part of her thought was the horse was thin when she got it....but her idea of this looked fit to the rest of us, and her idea of fit looked very overweight.

Not saying what is the case here, and of course without any contract in place then the horses are yours to do as you wish with. All I'm saying is we have one side of the story here, and most often there are three sides, mine, yours and the reality.


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## ManicMini (May 4, 2015)

To all of those who are saying it's not right for the OP to sell the horses, i'd like to know why you feel that way? I can't tell you how many times on this forum I see the general consensus of, "If you want to know where the horse is going to end up for the rest of it's life and want a say so about it, don't sell it." I see that kind of attitude regarding horses that were previously owned by posters looking for them as well. "It's not your horse anymore and none of your business. Leave the horse and it's new owner alone." The OP was given the horses and as such, they are her's to do what she likes with them. Whether she wants to give them away or post them up for sale for $5000 that's her decision to make. 

If the previous owner wanted to make sure her horses were cared for forever by the same person, perhaps she should have found other ways to improve their care and keep them in her custody. As far as the owner's circumstances changing in 30 days with no notice, well LIFE HAPPENS! We can't possibly know when something life altering is about to hit. Not everyone can afford to have Madame Cleo on speed dial to get a head's up on their future. 

My own personal example is that on Halloween Day I bought a Shiba Inu as a companion for myself. On 11/4 I lost my job...half way through the work day. I didn't know on Halloween that in a few short days I would be unemployed otherwise I wouldn't have bought the dog. Luckily, my horse's and dog's care aren't going to be compromised due to a fortunate arrangement but not everyone is so lucky. If I couldn't afford to maintain their well-being, i'd be rehoming them into a living situation that is to their benefit than making them suffer by staying with me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

ManicMini said:


> To all of those who are saying it's not right for the OP to sell the horses, i'd like to know why you feel that way?


Because:

I have two horses I love dearly, one is a 23 year old un-ridable ex brood mare. If something happened that I could no longer care for her, I personally don't see her as saleable, so my two choices would be rehome for nothing or euthanasia. Now if I found what sounded like a perfect 'forever' home, where they promised to take care of her, that would be fantastic. If I then saw her advertised for sale a very short time after then I would be beyond angry and upset. I look at this from both sides, I have no idea of the then or current conditions of the horses, I only have one side of the story. All I can do is think of it in terms of being promised a forever home then seeing them advertised.......


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> Because:
> 
> I have two horses I love dearly, one is a 23 year old un-ridable ex brood mare. If something happened that I could no longer care for her, I personally don't see her as saleable, so my two choices would be rehome for nothing or euthanasia. Now if I found what sounded like a perfect 'forever' home, where they promised to take care of her, that would be fantastic. If I then saw her advertised for sale a very short time after then I would be beyond angry and upset. I look at this from both sides, I have no idea of the then or current conditions of the horses, I only have one side of the story. All I can do is think of it in terms of being promised a forever home then seeing them advertised.......


A better solution, in your case, would have been for the OP to have contacted you about the need to rehome beforehand. But in your case, you would have taken them back and cared for them well. The OP says that she pulled them from an abusive and neglectful situation. In my mind, that makes the situation a bit less black and white. In this case she wouldn't want to return them. Would you? So this puts the OP in a difficult situation that isn't so clear cut, IMO. 

You'd be angry and rightfully so, but I bet if it were someone like you these horses had come from, the OP would have just asked if you wanted them back.


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## ManicMini (May 4, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> All I can do is think of it in terms of being promised a forever home then seeing them advertised.......


I don't think there is any certainty guaranteed in this life but even more so when it comes to giving horses a forever home.

You're entitled to feel the way you do about the subject of horses being rehomed from homes that were promised to be forever and I can respect and understand that. I just don't think that because OP's circumstances changed in a short time-frame is reason to think that she's doing something shady(this isn't directed to you personally GH). If anything, I think it's more of a reason to commend her for not putting the horses back into the bad situation they came from. Or possibly keeping them and hoping it's all going to work out in the end. 

From what we know(which is one side of the story, we may never know the other side) the horses are in need of some serious care. They are underweight, most likely in need of that care being overseen by a vet. It doesn't sound like the original owner or the OP will be able to provide the horses all of the care they require and deserve. If I rehomed a horse, I'd want a rehoming or adoption fee as well as vet references as a safeguard to ensure the horse would be going to a knowledgeable and responsible home. Would it be a surefire way to know this would be the best home possible? No way. However, it would make me feel better knowing I did what I thought best and had taken measures to reassure me that I made the right decision. Would I be upset if the new owner had to rehome the horses? No. If I entrusted them with the horse's care, I would also trust them to find the horse an appropriate home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hey I'm glad I have everyone's permission to have an opinion, makes me feel so much better


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## bmgaag2009 (Nov 11, 2015)

beau159 said:


> I also do find it strange that your financial situation has suddenly flipped in a couple weeks. You dont make it sound like you had a big medical or family emergency; you're just finally "coming to your senses" about what you can realistically afford. And that's the part that seems fishy about the whole thing. I know you aren't asking a crazy amount for the horses and probably do have good intentions to find them a good home, but I can see the woman's perspective on this one.
> 
> How would *you *feel if you DID sell one of the horses, and a few weeks later you see the horse listed for sale, for a couple hundred bucks more?



The change that I am talking about is not effecting me NOW, but it WILL affect me in the future- the hardest time is going to be the next 12 months most likely. I can continue to take care of them properly NOW, but know that as time goes on over the course of the next year it will get harder and harder to PROPERLY maintain the amount of animals I have. I am trying to part with some NOW while I am not in an emergency situation where I have to choose between buying a load of hay or feeding my children or paying my mortgage. I would rather be REALISTIC in what I know the future holds, and start looking for another good home for them NOW rather than later. It may take me 6 months to find that home... who knows. Like I mentioned, I have no intention of letting the first buyer with cash haul them away. Unforeseen is just that - not seen ahead of time... so NO, I didnt know I would be facing my situation a month ago when I took these guys on. 

And if I were to find them for sale; as long as they were being properly cared for; I would not have a problem with it. Proper care is my # 1 priority. Its the reality of the horse world. Proper care and attempts to screen potential buyers to ensure a good home are all I CAN ask them for. they would be their horses to do as they wish with. Very rarely do people keep their horses FOREVER - there is always a reason to sell; No time, No money, Child outgrew, owner going off to college, etc etc. I have one pony who I am going to try like hell to keep - Ive had him for almost four years and he is a wonderful childs pony. The other mare (that I paid for) wasnt purchased with the intention to resell either; BUT, realistically, I have to list her for sale as well as one horse (on top of kids and other critters) will be a tight budget to maintain with the changing circumstances I am not facing.


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## bmgaag2009 (Nov 11, 2015)

carshon said:


> to the original poster - i applaud you for realizing that you may be in a position a few months from now that you cannot care for these horses. Regardless of what anyone else here says you are taking responsibility for them and looking out for their future. I can go buy a horse today and get in a car accident a week from now and have to sell the horse. Once you own that horse it is yours. Whether it was free or not. For those claiming this is morally wrong - phooey - at least she is taking action before she is unable to care for them in a few months time.



thankyou!


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## bmgaag2009 (Nov 11, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> All I can do is think of it in terms of being promised a forever home then seeing them advertised.......


I NEVER promised a FOREVER home. Like someone above mentioned - if she wanted to be sure of a FOREVER home, why did she not do what SHE had to do to keep them FOREVER? 

I did say I had no INTENTIONS of selling them anytime soon, but at THAT point in time, I had no idea I would be facing my current situation at this time. "soon" ended up being MUCH sooner than ever anticipated in this situation. Had they been in a great wonderful home when I got them, they would be on their merry way back there. BUT, that is not the case. So instead, I am trying to find them a good home, that will HOPEFULLY be more long term; but no one ever knows for sure. As long as the horses are PROPERLY cared for, I cant ask for much more realistically. No one can promise a "FOREVER" home, because we never know what will happen tomorrow.


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

elle1959 said:


> The OP says that she pulled them from an abusive and neglectful situation. In my mind, that makes the situation a bit less black and white. In this case she wouldn't want to return them. Would you? So this puts the OP in a difficult situation that isn't so clear cut, IMO.
> 
> You'd be angry and rightfully so, but I bet if it were someone like you these horses had come from, the OP would have just asked if you wanted them back.


In this instance as well, the OP has never said that a "forever" home was promised to the giver of the horses, just that she was giving them to the OP. It may be that OP took the horses out of a wish to be kind, but they've realized that they can't support them. 

In any case, I would find that the ethics of sending an animal back to a place where they are not cared for properly, starved, wormy, and their feet are horrendous fully trumps the ethics of selling a gifted animal, given by someone who by all accounts seems to be a hoarder.

Again, there's the side of the story we are seeing, so it's going to change in different situations. I personally would not feel it necessary to walk on eggshells around someone who is not going to take care of the animals they suddenly want back. Giving implies a gift, when gifted implies ownership, ownership implies being able to do with the gift as you see fit.


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## bmgaag2009 (Nov 11, 2015)

elle1959 said:


> A better solution, in your case, would have been for the OP to have contacted you about the need to rehome beforehand. But in your case, you would have taken them back and cared for them well. The OP says that she pulled them from an abusive and neglectful situation. In my mind, that makes the situation a bit less black and white. In this case she wouldn't want to return them. Would you? So this puts the OP in a difficult situation that isn't so clear cut, IMO.
> 
> You'd be angry and rightfully so, but I bet if it were someone like you these horses had come from, the OP would have just asked if you wanted them back.



Exactly! Had they been in a good home before hand, I would have immediately contacted the former owners to see if they would take them back. But, that isnt the case. I wish it was, it would mean I wouldnt have the responsibility of finding them another home where they will be properly cared for.


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## Le007 (Jan 7, 2013)

Give them back to her, if she wants them BUT only if she pays for for all the care you have given and money spent to rehab them. That would likely stop her from pursuing this further. Count it as lesson learned, don't do business without everything on a written contract. Hope they end up in a good home.


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## bmgaag2009 (Nov 11, 2015)

Mulefeather said:


> It may be that OP took the horses out of a wish to be kind, but they've realized that they can't support them.



Its not that I cannot currently support them. It is that in 6 months from now, I may not be able to. I would MUCH rather start looking now, than when it comes down to buying hay or buying groceries. I am HOPING it does not come to be that hard, but it is a real possibility in this economy with the circumstances I am facing.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

bmgaag2009 said:


> I really wish we weren't heading into winter - I would shave the colt to make it easier to see his true condition. Pictures don't show the reality of how thin he really is. Hands on you can easily tell. I may have to have a few people who have seen them in person write a statement on their condition.


Try this. Brush on some baby oil lightly for pictures. Take the pictures is a pristine clean stall, with some hay for him to munch on, to show that you are rescuing him from starvation.
You can blanket him for a day or two until the baby oil soaks in his coat, which will just make him a little bit softer. =D


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## bmgaag2009 (Nov 11, 2015)

I will do that Corporal! And, I will gladly share the pictures here to show everyone what I am talking about. I have never heard of the baby oil trick..he has a pretty thick winter coat, so I hope it will work on him. If not, I think I might just find a pair of good clippers and selectively clip him. If I do that, I will obviously be blanketing him, and keeping him in the barn a little more often than the unclipped horses.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

Be upfront and honest.

Tell her you took on these horses because you thought you could keep them for a while and feed them up but recently some things have happened and you've discovered you are not in as stable a financial situation as you thought. 

As a result you've had to reduce your costs and that's why you are selling the horses. Say you are sorry if she had hoped they would stay with you long term but you can't anymore.

Explain you've put the price on them because of their improved condition but mainly because you want to find owners who can care for them correctly. 

Tell her that you were concerned about the horses condition when you received them and they needed foot care and feeding. If she were to seriously want them back you would expect her to pay you back for all the care you've put into the horses and ask her to tell you her plan so that they don't get like that again. If she is willing to pay what you put in, was just inexperienced and prepares a plan for their continuing care then I think you should return them. 

If not sell them on.

It's good that you're selling before you get to a bad position. However it's important to always have a really good understanding of your finances. Prior to taking these horses you should have considered the projected costs for the horses and see if they fit. If choosing hay or groceries was ever a possibility in the foreseeable future then you shouldn't have taken them. 

Taking these horses on and reselling them could be considered pretty unethical given the expectations of the seller and what you told her. She's probably feeling deceived and betrayed and those aren't exactly wrong feelings given the situation. 

I think, given the timeframe, prior to advertising you should have contacted her to discuss the situation, as a courtesy.


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## bmgaag2009 (Nov 11, 2015)

Saskia said:


> It's good that you're selling before you get to a bad position. However it's important to always have a really good understanding of your finances. Prior to taking these horses you should have considered the projected costs for the horses and see if they fit. If choosing hay or groceries was ever a possibility in the foreseeable future then you shouldn't have taken them.


I completely understand everything youve said, and appreciate the feedback on everything! I just want to make it clear, I DO understand my finances. I DID and DO understand the projected costs of keeping and caring for the horses. The foreseeable future at the time I acquired the horses did NOT have the possibility of having to choose between hay or groceries down the line. It is because I DO understand the costs of properly caring for a horse, and that I am be REALISTIC in regards to what my change of circumstances may likely mean as far as my finances go, that I am being PROACTIVE in listing them now, to find the best possible home. It will be VERY likely I do not sell them this time of year. Thankfully, I do have a security blanket account that would carry the cost of feeding and caring for themIF I had to use it... it is meant for veterinary emergencies though; so if I cut into that drastically, and then something were to happen and require an emergency vet call, I would not be as prepared for that situation to afford to amount of veterinary care I can at the moment with what I have reserved. Reducing my numbers now is the logical and responsible thing to do, before I am in a desperate or emergency situation.


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Saskia said:


> Be upfront and honest.
> 
> Tell her you took on these horses because you thought you could keep them for a while and feed them up but recently some things have happened and you've discovered you are not in as stable a financial situation as you thought.
> 
> ...



Not necessarily Saskia. I have been given horses in the past, and though the people are usually sad to see them go and 'want to know' if you are selling them, time down the track they are appalled at the idea you might want to return them. 

Given the history (as we get to understand it), it sounds to me more that this woman is miffed that they are being sold when she got no money for them. The difference being that in her care they were neglected and needed help whereas bmgaag2009 has invested love and time and money which it is reasonable to expect a small return on.

If you are giving someone a horse it is theirs. If you lend or lease it you would expect it back. If you neglect it you should be fined by SPCA (or your equivalent) so if someone else is seeing to their welfare, even if that later means selling them on, you should be grateful.

:gallop:


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

As long as you respond to her texts or phone calls, she is in control. Is that what you want? Ignore what has happened and move forward. You don't need to consult a lawyer. If she takes you to court, a lawyer isn't needed for small claims. The judge tries to be reasonable and listens to both sides. It's not like criminal court nor on tv. And who knows, her BIL lawyer may have advised her to drop it. If she continues to attempt to contact you, send her a letter, not a text or email, but registered letting her know you will take legal action if she doesn't stop harassing you.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

A very good, long time friend of mine died and I ended up with all of her horses. Legally, registration papers signed over to me, horses put in my name. She had been a long time rescuer/sanctuary type person and had several good friends in that industry. One of them, who runs a registered non-profit rescue, asked me what I would do with those horses. I told her that I would be having all vetted, farrier work done and doing some remedial training because these horses were not safe for just anyone to handle. Once I accomplished those goals, I would re-home or sell them as I had had not been informed that I was going to get them and had no intention of keeping them. PERIOD. I also asked did she want them or want to take them for the rescue (which is in CA). She did not, the rescue was full. She wasn't happy that I wasn't going to keep them but they weren't left to her. So.... roughly a year later, I had one horse put down due to his dangerous behaviour. He kept taking my farrier down to the ground and was just not interested in learning better. I sold 1 horse for $750 and gave the rest to a friend who breeds and wanted the bloodlines. Whether he ever breeds the mares I gave him (also let him talk me out of one of mine since I wasn't using her) or just looks at them in the pasture (he's got 8000 acres), doesn't matter to me. They have a good home. Forever? Probably not but that's ok too. They're HIS not mine anymore. 

Bottom line is, I got 11 horses for free, re-homed 9 and sold 1 and had one PTS. The rescue lady asked me how the horses were doing about 1 1/2 hrs later, and I told her. She hasn't spoken to me since. Too bad, she can get over it or die mad. I am not keeping a living, breathing, EATING, shrine to a dead woman, no matter how good a friend she was. And my deceased friend KNEW that. She knew I would care for those horses and retrain as needed and do what was right for them and for me. She would be fine with what I did. Anybody else? Tough. 

So, the only immoral thing here is starving horses or starving kids and losing your house because you're too irrational to see that something has to go. (NOT saying you are OP.) The woman who gave the horses couldn't take care of them, got rid of them and now is having a fit. Tough luck. If she had been any kind of a horse woman in the first place, she'd have down sized before she had to just dump them on someone. She, after all, is still alive and could have taken more time to disperse them if she wanted money. Tell her, "See ya in court." and quit worrying about it. Print out all exchanges you've had with her and keep them in case you need them. Learn from this and don't get caught up in a mess like it again. 

People who think all horses need a forever home are unrealistic. Yes, ideally we'd all be able to keep them forever but life happens. How many times, just on this board, have we read or heard someone needing to get rid of all their horses? Life was great yesterday but today their SO, left them, lost a job, got hit by a bus, was in a gawd awful accident and may not live, etc etc etc. No one can fully predict the future and if you can see down the road to tough times, the time to move those horses is now before they get starved or otherwise neglected due to lack of funds.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

ERRRR that should read YEARS not HOURS later.


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> People who think all horses need a forever home are unrealistic.


Very true, indeed. I also think it is hypocritical for someone to sell/giveaway a horse (or other animal) ONLY to a "forever home" - that person didn't give the animal one, so why should the recipient be so restricted? Of course, such restriction would not be enforced if it got to court (no damage to the seller). I am all for finding the animal the best home with the best match possible, since that weighs in favor of the animal staying with that home. But, as Dreamcatcher stated, life happens and sometimes you have to rehome an animal. 

Luckily for me, I have been able to keep all my animals (so far) their entire lives and have never had to sell one. But even if I did, the "forever home" restriction would not be part of the bargain. Just a good vetting of the buyer and hope my animal lands softly.


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## bmgaag2009 (Nov 11, 2015)

Saddlebag- I have not had any contact with her since the day she was messaging me when she was told I had them listed... She ended the conversation with "You will be hearing from my lawyer, and he said to stop talking to you" type of line and then blocked me from messaging her. Fine by me... and still no word from her BIL Lawyer. 

Dreamcatcher - Thank you for your story! I have the same feeling in my gut - I am trying to do what is right for these horses now, since the likely hood of times getting much tougher for me over the next 6 months to a year is so high. Realistically, I know I can continue proper care at this time, and maintain that level of care for a while, but it will get harder and harder as time goes on. I dont want to put them or myself in a bad position. If the original owner, and her 'friends' are angry with me, so be it. I have yet to see any of them willing to take me up on my request to come over here, and actually put their hands all over the horses and give me a written assessment of the horses using the body condition scale... no one wants to put anything on paper because they dont want to go against the original owner. If they were so confident in how she was caring for those horses, they would be knocking on my door to put it in writing after doing a hands on assessment. 

I think another reason she may be so upset I am listing them for sale, is because she did have them listed all summer long. No takers. Then she offered them to me- which I am thankful for - the colt and other filly my co worker took would NOT have made it through the winter with the care they were receiving.

After hearing everyones insight and opinions, I am at peace with my decision. I understand where her anger is coming from, as far as the timing of it all; but I also know I am doing what is best in the long run for these horses (not just the two in question, but also the third I have listed) considering what lies ahead for my future. I hope by finding 3 of them a good home, I can try like heck to keep one horse, and a few of my chickens and rabbits because they provide food for the family, throughout this change in my life. But, I am realistic, and know I may have to put my last pony up for sale in the future... I hope not from the bottom of my heart, but I know it would be done if I had to do it.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

That's the bottom line isn't it? When times get lean and tough, luxuries have to go or be cut out of the budget. Horses, as much as we may run on about them being essential to our future ability to breathe, are very much a luxury. One that eats, breathes and needs food, farrier and vet attention. When you can't afford a doctor for yourself or your kids, or to buy a long term medication, you need to cut luxuries from your budget. A diamond ring can be left on the shelf for years and not suffer, a horse can't.


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## bmgaag2009 (Nov 11, 2015)

Very well said!!


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

send her a certified letter stating the amount of board, include your Time spent cleaning, handling etc etc. tell her if she does not respond in x mat of days the horses will be sold to recoup the cost of care. i would not be posting a lot of comments on a public forum. You do have a paper stating she gave you teh horses.


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> ERRRR that should read YEARS not HOURS later.


yep - we did


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

When boarding my mare the landowner said hay and oats twice daily. A friend moved her gelding there, same deal. Funny thing was, whenever we went the oat barrel was empty and between the two of us we were there almost daily. Then I learned his two yr old colt wasn't gelded and was running with our two horses. Before the end of the month, no notice, we just went for a trail ride and never went back. The guy called me at work and was nasty. I mentioned the lack of grain and his colt and that I didn't feel he warranted notice. His volume went up as he was unsuccessfully trying to rattle me. Finally he hollered about taking me to court. To which I replied calmly "You do what you feel you have to do, and I will do what I feel I have to do" The guy totally lost it. Never heard from him again.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

bmgaag2009 said:


> I understand it really stinks I am in this situation so soon after she just gave them to me - but no one has a crystal ball to the future.


I feel very bad for you. I accepted a gift horse in the spring of 2008, and now he is nearing 20 and having some health challenges and I wonder what the next decade holds. Fortunately the previous owner is sane, but it will be a tragic day for all of us when the little guy needs medical care I can't afford.

All of us face the uncertainty of the future of the horses we love. My big guy is 18, and I am 61. If he lives to be 35, will I still be able to care for him when I'm 78? Will I even still be alive? You're right, nobody has a crystal ball.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

bmgaag2009 said:


> Have you ever sold a horse, for any reason?


No.

Most of this thread is going back and forth about what is right. There's plenty of grist for dragging out that discussion for several more pages. I would like to shift to what is expedient.

The previous owner of these horses, setting aside whatever disappointments or legal claims she might have, sounds like she might be nuts. If so, she might be willing to bankrupt herself to punish you. Since the whole problem started from a potential change in your financial situation, do you really want to risk spending thousands of dollars on legal fees?

I see two possible ways out. Either give her back the horses, or sell the horses and give her the money for the two that were gifts. Probably neither choice is right, or just, but if she agrees to either one you have removed the financial risk of her psychotic vendetta.

I think you need to be realistic about what this woman could cost you. There's no point in selling these horses to preserve your financial situation if doing that will put more money at risk than you could possibly save.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

How many times have we read of people selling horses then later going to great lengths to find the horse in hopes of buying it back? This seems to be a woman thing. Don't fret but bide your time. If she was to take legal action you'd have heard from her lawyer by now.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

This happened to my sisters but with a dog. Sister #1 got a dog from a lady who didn't want it. Sister #2 really liked the dog so Sister #1 gave it to her. 

Sister #2 had that dog when crazy ex-owner showed up at her door & demanded to have the dog back, even called the police to say it was stolen. Sister kept the dog & crazy lady got a restraining order for threats she made. End of story.


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Joel Reiter said:


> I see two possible ways out. Either give her back the horses, or sell the horses and give her the money for the two that were gifts. Probably neither choice is right, or just, but if she agrees to either one you have removed the financial risk of her psychotic vendetta.


I disagree. If the woman wants the horses back she should pay compensation for grazing/feed/care/time/vet/blacksmith etc. These horses were neglected. She has choice, pay or agree to sale. Current owner is not making money on the deal, just recouping costs.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

ShirtHotTeez said:


> I disagree. If the woman wants the horses back she should pay compensation for grazing/feed/care/time/vet/blacksmith etc. These horses were neglected. She has choice, pay or agree to sale. Current owner is not making money on the deal, just recouping costs.


No, we don't disagree. You are talking about what is right. All I was saying is that the OP has to make a choice between doing was is fair and doing what will protect her financially. Doing what is right, fair, or just could cost her more than keeping the horses, which she is afraid she can't afford.


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## bmgaag2009 (Nov 11, 2015)

I have not heard a word from the woman since the original conversation I mentioned. I have kept the horses listed, and fielded many inquiries on them - all of which I either turned away for one reason or another, or they werent what they were wanting size wise. Then, I found a nice 4H family who is interested in the mare and colt in question. Their references and site check have both came back great... Pickup is pending for tomorrow... no horse is sold until its on a trailer, so I am hoping it goes through. Wonderful family with 5 kids, active in 4H; one other horse and other farm critters. What am I getting out of it for money? Just what I have into them care and feed wise. MUCH less than what I listed them at... Family is prepared to pay my asking price - but will get a wonderful surprise when I hand them back over half of it when they come to pick them up. I dont want the profit, I want a good home that understands what they need care wise to continue getting healthier. And this is a family that can provide that. Will they keep them "forever" - I have no idea, and not my place to say they have to. Will they screen and find a good match if the time to sell comes; I think so, I hope so. No one can tell for sure. But I know they will be cared for properly where they are going, and hopefully the wide range of kids will keep them busy for years to come  Thats all I can ask for at this point.


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

Like I said, if she doesn't have the money to care for the horses, she can't afford a looney-tune legal case, either No lawyer in their right mind would touch this one. I'm sure you're fine.


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