# Horse is too stubborn to join up?



## memeseku (Dec 19, 2014)

I attempted to join up with my horse for the first time the other day and I went for about 20 minutes until I was completely exhausted and could not do anymore. She was licking her lips, moving her ears and was almost there but when I stopped and turned she didn't walk up to me. I know her and I know that shes very stubborn and shes about 22 so she wants to kind of be her own master? I feel like i was strong, I stared her in the eye, changed directions etc. but she just wouldn't budge. I don't know what to do  help


----------



## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

When you stopped chasing her away, did you soften your body language/face away from her?


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

As said, you need to soften your body language, drop your eye contact so you are looking at her feet, drop your shoulders and even half turn away.

Most horses will turn to face you but will not necessarily move towards you, they will just stand there. If this is the case you move sideways towards them, rub them on their forehead and move away, then they usually start to follow you. 

If they break away then you put them to work again.


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I don't turn and face away from them. I lower my shoulders and head and back up a step to see if they are going to 'draw' toward me. As long as they are looking at me, I keep slowly backing up until they take a first step toward me. If they do not step toward me in a minute or two, they lose interest and I 'drive' them some more. If they keep watching me but do not take a step toward me when I back up, I will usually try taking a step toward them. They usually turn away so I drive them some more. 

If they keep watching me, I really try to get them to take that first step toward me while I am backing up and taking pressure off. Once they do that, I usually 'have them'.

When they stand and let me walk up to them with my head down, I usually scratch their shoulder or side of their withers. THEN, instead of haltering them, I usually turn away and see if they follow me. The ones that don't, I drive some more. 

I do not drive them hard or chase them. I just quietly herd them away. Once I have them stopping and drawing a step toward me, I often step to my left or right to see if them are ready to change directions by turning in toward me. If they are, I may drive them a few times (quietly and slowly) through direction changes. Almost all of them will start trying to come to me when they want the game to quit. The only time I put hard pressure (yell at them and hit the ground if I have a whip) is if they change directions by turning away from me. I put hard pressure on one any time I am looking at its **** end. 

If you are patient and do this a while, most of them start 'begging' you to catch them.


----------



## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

why were you exhausted after 20 minutes?
what were you doing??
was the horse on a lunge line or in a round pen?


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> I attempted to join up with my horse for the first time the other day and I went for about 20 minutes until I was completely exhausted and could not do anymore.


I wondered the same thing. I am old, can barely walk and I can outlast any of them. I can even outlast them in the big 150 ' round pen.

You want to 'herd' them -- not chase them. 
Cherie


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

mY question, why were you playing join up with a 22 year old horse
Join up, as seen by NH trainers, and many traditional trainers, is something done in the round pen, working with a green horse that has not been handled much, showing him that you control the direction of his feet, and then when the horse shows signs of accepting you as leader, you invite that horse to enter your space-ie, walk up to you
You can do that when first getting on a colt-stepping on and off of him, then walking away, as the horse absorbs that, starts seeing you as leader, and then follows you as you walk away
I see no practical application by continuing to do join up with a broke horse
In fact, once a horse is ant a certain stage in training, I want him to stop on the rail, and wait to be invited to walk in, not seek to come in each time he is stopped associating that with end of work
The poor old gal must have been tired also, wondering what the heck you wanted!


----------



## Hackamore (Mar 28, 2014)

Success with this comes from having the knowledge to apply pressure at the right moment, Knowing how much pressure to use to get a response & knowing when to release as the horse shows you the slightest change. Being able to recognize these very subtle changes in the horses body language comes with experience. Having a horse turn to you and follow you might be your desired end result but it is not the only change to be looking for. You need to be watching their body language, are they tense? are they relaxed? What is the position of their ears? Are they searching for their barn mates or are they looking to you for direction? 

Seldom does it take more than 5 minutes to get some change from a horse. This change is not achieved by running a horse in a circle until they are exhausted but by changes in direction & controlling the horses feet. Once the horse understands you can control where they go you will capture their mind & they will start looking to you for direction. If you are not having success after 5 or 10 minutes you should stop and evaluate your approach & technique. 

Best of luck


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I work most green horses and young horses on a line. Just personal preference. I can do the same thing on a line or in a pen. When I have handled them some, then I will round-pen them some, but it is how I got used to doing it for about 30 years before 60' round pens came into style. As a matter of fact, the first pen I used to teach horses to let me catch them and teach them to turn and face me was a square stud pen - about 40' X 50 ', 6 1/2 feet tall. 

I use a round pen now, mostly with horses that have a history of being hard to catch. We run into a lot of 10 - 20 year old geldings and most of them are not easy to catch when we first encounter them. Some of them were sold just because people could not catch them. It does not take long before all of them are easy to catch and most meet me at the gate. 

I do not find anything 'magic' in 'join-up'. I also do not think it does any more to help a person train a horse than any other method used to get one's attention and teach it that you are their herd leader. 

I think round-penning does the most good when used with hard to catch horses and any pen will do. I really like the 150' pen. It relates a lot more to catching in a big pasture than the regular round pens do.

I've done the same thing a lot of times in pastures by 'herding' a horse from the back of another horse. I back my horse up and 'draw' them the same way. When they draw pretty consistently, I can usually dismount and walk up to the horse with a halter. 

As said before, it is all in 'reading' a horse and understanding horse behavior. I have found the the more quiet you stay and the more subtle your body language is, the easier it is to get a horse to respond. Good training techniques are pretty quiet and boring. If there is a lot of action and excitement, the trainer is usually NOT winning.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

What is this horse's problem anyways? Is she hard to catch?
I get the impression that the Op just wants to emulate something seen with an NH trainer getting that mostly un handled horse to connect/join up to the human, where that horse at first is looking for ways to escape, seek comfort outside of that roundpen, then made to focus on that human, who knows how to drive a horse, position himself correctly, to have that horse reverse directions , etc, in other word, show the horse he can control his feet, as that is something a horse understands from herd dynamics
The horse then starts to see that human as a leader, someone he wants to be with
I also mainly work green horses on a line, as I bit them up now at the same time, doing more ground work then I used to, when this old body was younger
I 'roundpen them just enough , to get that concept of controlling direction.

For hard to catch horses, they simply get put in smaller pastures. I also have no intention of walking a horse down for half a day that is hard to catch.
It is also amazing how horses put out over night with grazing muzzles, wait at the gate in the morning to go into the corral and have them taken off!
I really don't have hard to catch horses at the moment, but never really saw where working them in around pen, translated to them remaining easy to halter, once turned out in a large pasture again, unless they were hard to catch due to lack of handling, thus some fear involved
Thus, my horses that enjoy large pasture turn out are all easy to catch, as they have earned that privilege.
Horses that decide they rather not be caught, because they rather hang out with buddies then work, get put in a smaller paddock by themselves. It is amazing how they then come up to you to be haltered!


----------



## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

OP, what are you trying to accomplish? From your post OP, I think you were putting way too much pressure on her. I could still round pen horses pretty decently when I had a broken femur and was on crutches when I couldn't out any weight in my leg at all. I missed a few opportunities but got the job done. It isn't about chasing horses around. 

Join up, hooking on, round penning, whatever you want to call it should NOT be about getting a horse to follow you. It is the last thing you should worry about and is the by product of everything else. I hear people say all the time that their horse is too stubborn, stupid or something else to hook on and it is not the case. It is the handler not knowing what they are doing and expecting too much. 

Was she happily moving forward off of a suggestion? As in you could point without a vocal cue OR using the whip and you would get a snappy upward transition without ear pinning, tail swishing, kicking out, etc? 

Would she stay going the direction you asked? 

Would she maintain forward motion while making turns toward the inside of the round pen? You do NOT want her rolling back into the fence. You also want her to e past the point of having to back up a spiral until you are on the fence so you can easily send her the other way. 

Can you do multiple changes of direction in a row? Before I ask a horse to stop I like to get to the point where my horse is doing figure eights on one side of the round pen.

If you allow her to stop does her attention remain on you completely? 

Can you disengage her hindquarters off of your body language, both directions? 

If your mare can not do all of that, then I recommend going back and filling any holes in her training before expecting her to follow you. Let me know what step you are stuck at and I can help. 

If all of that is working, then you are already there. All you have to do is disengage her hindquarters repeatedly so she is doing a full 360 and as you disengage, spiral away from her. This will unlock her front feet so she steps forward and follows. If she gets stuck, go the other direction.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Round pen work has to have a purpose.
Now that I am no longer actively breeding, raising and training young horses, my round pen gets very little, if any use.
I might just free lunge my IR mare, when she is drylotted, and I have no time to ride, so she gets her exercise, but other than that, it just sits there now.
Why do you think, OP, that this old mare needs 'join up ?
My dog follows me. My horse stands where I put him/her. I don't want my horse following me around like a puppy dog


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

memeseku said:


> I attempted to join up with my horse for the first time the other day and I went for about 20 minutes until I was completely exhausted and could not do anymore.


I'm confused. Were you just mentally exhausted from not being able to work it out? If not, what on earth were you doing that you physically tired yourself?? I know many do this in such a way that physically(& mentally) exhausts the horse(I disagree with doing that), but the whole point of a round pen is that you get to stand in the middle & do little, while the horse is taught/works.

If your horse is 'too stubborn' to do something you're asking of them, then there's something you're doing to cause that.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

most folks who do Join Up are doing it for their own education. they are learning about this whole concept of drive and draw, and while it's not necessary at all for a well trained horse to do this, it won't hurt them to do it now and then, either. 

the OP is likely doing this more for her/his own benefit, to learn, than to train her horse.


----------



## WildAtHeart (Jul 17, 2013)

When you stop driving her does she turn her head and watch you? She does not have to walk right up to you at first, so long as she gives you her attention this is a good start.


----------

