# Mustang Critque



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

looks like she's got some draft in her. She's a darn nice mare!


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

Thank you she has a wonderful personality to boot!


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

Her hip shape reminds me a bit of a Friesian in the last photo. It's pretty hard to see her shoulder, but that's beacause she's so gorgeously black. What are your plans with her?


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

wakiya said:


> Her hip shape reminds me a bit of a Friesian in the last photo. It's pretty hard to see her shoulder, but that's beacause she's so gorgeously black. What are your plans with her?


Last year I showed in in Hunter Under Saddle and Hunter Hack which she placed second in Hunter Hack and 3rd in Hunter Under Saddle...since show seasons over she mostly just been a trail horse.


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

Here are some better conformation pictures.


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## ForeverSunRider (Jun 27, 2013)

You should post pictures of the stallion. Your mare doesn't have any obvious faults that I can see. Her withers look really prominent but that's about all I see at first glance. And of course, that's not an issue lol


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

The only ones I have right now of him are on my breeding thread but I will contact the owner of him and see if she can send any
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Oh she is just horrible! You should let me take her so you dont have to look at her.... Lol Jk she is perfect!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

She's a nice mare for a mustang, but I feel the need to ask....why are you planning to breed her when there are thousands just like her (and better conformed) that you can pick up for $125.....color, size, temperament, and conformation of your choice?

Anyway, she's a decent mare but does have quite a few faults (like any mustang, lord knows mine has his issues LOL). She's very long through her back with a weak coupling, and it also appears she's got the start of a sway back, which being bred could make worse. She is slightly calf kneed, her right knee is a little offset and she's a bit clubby on her right front hoof. Any or all of those may be genetic and passed on to a foal, possibly ending up worse than what she's got.

She's a bit camped under on her hind end and post legged, straight through her hocks and stifles. Her shoulder and croup have nice angles but her neck is short and her head is coarse.

Have you browsed the BLM online adoption gallery? They've got dozens of horses to choose from, most of which are young but some are already gentled on the ground and there are a few started under saddle.
https://www.blm.gov/adoptahorse/onlinegallery.php


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

This little mare
https://www.blm.gov/adoptahorse/horse.php?horse_id=6513&mygalleryview=
Need a home... In my barn XD!


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## PastureSongs (May 27, 2013)

Why in the world are you breeding a 16 year old horse, let alone a 16 year old mustang.
There are hundreds upon hundreds suffering at BLM pens across the country. Go get one.


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

Yes I have but I don't have BLM approved facilities as I had already put in an,application they told me if I had a round pen I would be ok but I don't at the moment and the main reason I'm breeding her is because I would love a foal out of her because of her temperament her willingness to learn, she learned to jump 2'6" in less than a month, and I would keep the foal...and kigerqueen lol if I didn't love her so much I still don't know if I would ever consider giving her away 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

And when I originally bought her the previous owner and her vet estimated her age to be between 10 and 12 it wasn't until I looked up her brand that I found out she was 16 though you would never know it as she is in perfect health
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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

Kigerqueen this is my favorite this month so far and I wish I could get one in all reality I wish I could save them all
https://www.blm.gov/adoptahorse/horse.php?horse_id=6463&mygalleryview=
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeding/things-think-about-before-you-consider-81824/


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

That is a great read! and to answer one of the question I actually have met the stallion and two of his foals the stallion is really sweet tempered and can be handled by younger kids. His foals are the same way both are very sweet and personable and both have great conformation along with it.


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

a video of me riding colly through the pasture yesterday afternoon... when she got over by the other horse she started slowing down but i was also cuing her by sitting up more


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

I like her bone. To me her biggest faults are that she is quite long backed and weakly coupled and starting to show a sway in her back. She is built downhill. She is also a bit post legged behind. She is very drafty in her appearance. 

Not a horse I would breed, but it is your horse and you will do what you want.


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

what makes you think she has the start of a sway back if you dont mind my asking cause her withers are very high..which makes it a little uncomfortable when riding bareback


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

also how can you determine she has a weak coupling? sorry not too schooled on confo but what is it???


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

If you do breed her (and I'm in the 'don't breed' boat personally but also realize its your choice), make sure that the stallion has a very strong topline, back, coupling, and hip since hers are lacking. She's a nice enough mare but you already have a 50% chance of her baby being long backed. Optimally you don't want it as long as hers, and you REALLY don't want it longer than hers is- which could happen with a long stallion. What is the cross going to be?

(by the way guys...THIS FILLY. OMGGGG https://www.blm.gov/adoptahorse/horse.php?horse_id=6565&mygalleryview= . If I was in a place where I could buy a horse right now and have it trained, this one would be the one for me. Short, big white blaze, built like a tank, and with a silver tail? Yes PLEASE.)


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

nice. A little long through a slightly weak coupling from her draft side. Also a little sickle hocked from that same place. Shoulder lays back nicely and her point of shoulder is correctly places.

According to Deb Bennett, PhD in her writings, the US Government introduced draft stallions to the Mustang herds because the Indian Nations were kicking our US Cavalry butts. they had small tough horses that were quick and could out run the cavalry. So they figured to breed out the speed and added draft blood. 

Today you find very very few feral mustangs that do not display some measure of draft. Before the draft was introduced these horses were mostly Spanish Barb in descent. Not necessarily pretty headed horses, but very wiry and quick. Also not very large running 14 hh or so.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

The 'stangs that are gentled or started don't require as much specialized containment as a wild one.

Anyway, you should really ask yourself these questions.

1) *Do you have the funds for the necessary ultrasounds and various vet visits both before and after breeding?*

2) *Do you have an emergency slush fund for if/when something goes wrong and you need a vet to come out and assist in the delivery to try to save either mare or foal or both?*

3) * Has she ever been bred before?* 16 is _very _old for a maiden mare and it's just like with older women who have babies. The older they are when they have their first, the chances for a difficult/heartbreaking pregnancy/birth increase exponentially.

4) *Are you prepared for the possibility that you might lose your mare?* Having a mare die in foaling isn't uncommon. Can you deal with it if something goes wrong and she dies?

5) *Are you prepared for the possibility that you might lose the foal?* Having a foal die during or shortly after foaling isn't uncommon either.

6) *Do you have a plan for the foal if it has a conformational deformity or gets injured where it can never be more than a pasture pet? *What if it's born with clubbed feet or windswept legs or severe knock knees or any other deformity that will keep it from having a happy life as even a pasture companion? Are you ready to make the hard choice to have it put down?

7) *Did you know that mustangs don't breed "true"?* Because their bloodlines are so mixed with different types/temperaments of horses, you have _zero _reasonable expectation of the resulting foal's temperament or physical appearance/ability. Your mare is sweet, but she could very well produce the spawn of the devil. I've seen it happen. Dam was just as nice a horse as you could ever hope to meet, but all her foals (crossed on really good stallions) were raging lunatics in spite of proper handling/training.

8 ) *Are you really willing to wait at least 4 years to ride the resulting foal?* One year of gestation followed by 3 years of pouring money into a horse you can't ride is a very large commitment.

9) * Do you have the knowledge necessary to train the foal correctly? * If not, do you have the funds available to pay a trainer to teach the foal to lead correctly, to stand for the farrier, to stand for bathing, to load in the trailer, and when the time comes, to be ridden?

10) * How old are you? * You don't actually have to answer publicly, but I want you to think about all the changes that may be coming up in your life. Maybe you are about to start college or about to start a career or maybe even a family. Are you sure that you'll still have the means to support 2+ horses in 5 years? What about 10 years? 

11) *What happens if you can't continue to support them? * What marketability does the potential foal have? Half mustang? Those are a dime a dozen and outside of certain circles, Mustangs are unwanted mutts that most people wouldn't take home for free.



Anyway, back to her conformation. Everything I mentioned about her front legs especially (clubbed foot, offset knee, calf knees) are considered soundness issues because they predispose the horse to lameness and early onset arthritis. Even if she was a papered QH with the best lines in the world, I wouldn't advise anyone breed her because the chance of the foal ending up with problems _worse _than she's got is just too great.

You breed _great _horses and often get foals that end up being just "good". You breed "good" horses and you often end up with a "mediocre" foal. You breed "mediocre" horses (no offense, but her conformation is mediocre at best. She may be a sweetie and a wonderful riding horse, but her body is what it is)....and you run a _real_ chance of ending up with a pretty sorry looking foal.

With her back, where I see the beginning of a sway is in the region circled in red below (first picture). Most normal horses with strong backs are generally pretty straight/flat through that area (2nd picture of my mustang so we keep to the same breed). With the combination of how long her back is and the weakness in that area, it would likely be hard on her back to carry the extra weight of a foal...and may make that sway bad enough that she would require a saddle made specifically for her to fit.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Sorry for the double post, but here are some very informative and enlightening threads. Most folks only think of the "cute baby" part of breeding. They don't consider the potential tragedy....

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeding/sharing-bad-story-morning-372730/

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeding/nurse-mare-texas-345497/

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeding/filly-born-without-eyes-180561/

393 days into gestation **Update, lost foal**

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeding/what-bad-foaling-year-lost-two-229729/

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeding/mare-foal-death-really-happens-people-225242/

Could she foal soon? **Update - tragedy**


And that's just a few of the threads on this board alone.


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## SaskGal (Apr 18, 2012)

I think what most are trying to say is think this through, don't just do it because you like your horse. The reason I say this is because what if something happened to you for example, would someone think your horse is as great as you do. A foal is a huge responsibility, and creating one should not just be a split second decision. Horses are not like pets in the way they die in ten years, they will with you usually for a good portion of your life, so to ensure a good life for them think it through please!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

In reguards to the black mustang, he looks like my bfs. He has drafty fethering, long legs but a almost qh compact body. He is a sweety though.

Im always in the "don't breed" boat but its your choice. I will say i dont like that stud for her. Long back + long back = this V









or this when they age









This is what you are looking for creating/ in a stud

























This guy is better then the stud you picked but his back is long


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

This is the horse for the first pic that won't work.
https://www.blm.gov/adoptahorse/horse.php?horse_id=6519&mygalleryview=


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I missed the breeding comment. No. This mare is NOT a breeding prospect at all. Period. Nice horse but not THAT nice.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

A weak coupling is the area between the point of croup and the start of the back. Her sway says she has a weak coupling. If that area were shorter, if the peack of croup were more forward and the croup, peak of croup into the back were smoother and straighter (no sway) she would have a strong coupling. 

This mare stands over a lot of ground.. she is over long. for banging around and using that is fine but it is not something you want to breed.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

so here we go. Detailed Critique of this horse.

Starting with her shoulder. The shoulder lays back nicely and the low angle of the humerus (point of shoulder to elbow) will likely not impact her front end reach as much as a steep shoulder. She may have pretty nice action in front. Her back is swayed with a dip behind the withers. This is a genetic flaw and is often seen exacerbated in the Saddle Horse breed where there are lines that actually produce severe sway back. 

Her swayed back transitions into a long coupling that follows the sway to the Peak of croup that is set too far back and is somewhat pronounced likely due to the long coupling and sway back. Her croup drops off a bit steeply. 

Her hind leg is over straight and may tend toward sickle hocks.. but mostly it lacks power and correct angulation. This is due to the stifle being too far to the rear causing the distance from point of buttock to stifle to be too short. This in turn places the hock in the incorrect location and the angles behind are all over straight. 

She is also a bit back at the knee. Her left front foot may be a bit clubbed.. but that needs to be seen in person to be determined. Her neck is a bit thick and coarse as is her head. 

And that is why she should not be bred IMO. Save your money and buy a foal. Plenty to be had and some are from much better conformed parents.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Elana said:


> According to Deb Bennett, PhD in her writings, the US Government introduced draft stallions to the Mustang herds because the Indian Nations were kicking our US Cavalry butts. they had small tough horses that were quick and could out run the cavalry. So they figured to breed out the speed and added draft blood.


 
I did not know that and find it very amusing. Sneaky sneaky!


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

There is also a story that they would pay $2 for a set of Mustang ears (so they encouraged shooting them). 

Other stories were as sneaky but much more deadly. It is said that blankets taken from small pox patients and other ill people were shipped to be traded to Native Tribes. It has been said that the Black Feet nation would have set back the settling of the west by 100 years they were so well organized (their government) had it not been for small pox.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

While I can hope that's not true it wouldn't surprise me :/

See the horse thing I found funny (interesting images), those are much more cruel.


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

They rounded up and shot thousands of native american horses (you can still find bones in some places). They gut shot stallions so they'd live long enough to keep the mares together and introduce another stallion. The efforts they went through to destroy the bloodstock as they knew it resulted in the subjugation of nations. There is a reason Spanish Barbs, Choctaw horses an related breeds are endangered. The history is brutal and horrific.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Elana said:


> There is also a story that they would pay $2 for a set of Mustang ears (so they encouraged shooting them).
> 
> Other stories were as sneaky but much more deadly. It is said that blankets taken from small pox patients and other ill people were shipped to be traded to Native Tribes. It has been said that the Black Feet nation would have set back the settling of the west by 100 years they were so well organized (their government) had it not been for small pox.


The longest war the USA ever fought was with the Comanche Nation. It lasted over 40 years. The only way the US prevailed was by destroying the massive herds of horses the tribe owned. Shalom


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

I appreciate everybody thoughts and opinions about my mare and I still am planning on breeding Colly this next month and I am prepared for anything that may or may not happen and I firmly believe that everything happens for a reason but I really do appreciate everybody
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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

I appreciate everybody thoughts and opinions about my mare and I still am planning on breeding Colly this next month and I am prepared for anything that may or may not happen and I firmly believe that everything happens for a reason but I really do appreciate evwryones feedback and also the mini history lesson 
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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

Sorry for the double posting
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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Thank YOU for being so gracious! At the end of the day it's your decision, and at least you're being responsible about it. I would rather see a responsible owner with a brain breed a nice yet not breeding quality horse than some moron popping babies of some fancy mare with no thought and no care.


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## Impressa (Mar 3, 2014)

Aww precious face. She looks like a sweety. <3


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

Thank you yogiwick and yes she is impressa
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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

Got some new conformation pictures of Colly.


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## 3ringburner (Feb 8, 2014)

Very pretty!


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

To be completely honest (as any critique should be), she's a bit of a conformational train wreck. I would have never even considered breeding her, however what's done is done. I can only hope that the foal takes more after the sire and that you don't breed her again after this.

Although most of this has been stated before (and I'm just looking at the most recently added pictures), she has a very long, weak back with high withers, a very upright croup, short hip, extremely upright shoulder, a short, unshaped neck, and a very unfeminine/unrefined head. She is also downhill, slightly back at the knee, camped out, and would be sickle hocked if her hocks were under her properly. 
I'll stop there, but I still didn't touch on everything. 

Based on her appearance, she really doesn't have any strong points besides her color, which should never be a reason to breed. 
I'm not a believer in breeding BLM mustangs (although there ARE some very nice ones out there if you insist on doing it). IMO, the point is to save a horse that would otherwise be facing the rest of it's life in a long-term holding facility, not to breed them and produce unregistered, unwanted babies.
While there is a market for branded mustangs, there is no market for a "mustang cross". Simply none. Mustang/QHs go for absolutely dirt cheap around here- and that's saying something, because horse prices in AZ are currently outrageous.

I do hope that you don't become sad or upset about what I have said, as those were not my intentions at all. Instead, I hope learn from it. 
Long lists of serious faults were pointed out on your mare, and yet you still went right along and bred her, which is a bit disappointing (seeing as you had the perfect opportunity to use better judgment and not go through with it.) Although I wish you would have taken all of it into serious consideration before it was too late, there's nothing anyone can do about it at this point.
All of that said, I truly wish you luck with your mare and for the future of this foal.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I'm rubbish at confo critiques...

But I thought I'd post none the less x.x 
She's cute... What discipline do you use her for?

I'm under the impression (from the post above) that you've already bred her... I'm curious as to what your plans for the foal are?


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

I use Colly as a trail horse, 4-h HUS and Hunter Hack pony and the foal will be her replacement as my trail horse and all around personal horse. Annalover no I don't take offense as I just stated the foal will always have a home. I also just want to state I did not get her from the BLM. There is more than her color that made me breed her. While I realize she has conformational flaws she has a very easy disposition and an extremely calm non-spooky very trainable mind..which to me is just as important as confo, but IMHO I would rather have a horse with a few conformational flaws and a great disposition and temperament than a horse with wonderful conformation and a terrible nasty attitude.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I just hope the resulting foal has conformation that will stand up to being ridden :?.


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

danicelia24 said:


> I use Colly as a trail horse, 4-h HUS and Hunter Hack pony and the foal will be her replacement as my trail horse and all around personal horse. Annalover no I don't take offense as I just stated the foal will always have a home. I also just want to state I did not get her from the BLM. There is more than her color that made me breed her. While I realize she has conformational flaws she has a very easy disposition and an extremely calm non-spooky very trainable mind..which to me is just as important as confo, but IMHO *I would rather have a horse with a few conformational flaws and a great disposition and temperament than a horse with wonderful conformation and a terrible nasty attitude.*


IMO the only horses that should be purposefully bred are the ones with a great disposition _and_ wonderful conformation. There's plenty of them out there and it's worth being picky.. there's no use in breeding mediocre horses. 

I do hope that you're able to keep the baby for it's whole life, because an unregistered and poorly conformed horse is much more likely to have an uncertain future than a papered, usable, well put together one.

A very important thing to keep in mind when breeding is to produce a horse that will have the best opportunities in life- should you be unable to keep it due to unforeseeable circumstances (which happens more often than people want to admit, even when they had bred to keep the foal "forever"). 

Again, what's done is done, but I just hope that you don't plan on breeding her again. You could do much better by going out and buying a quality foal that's either in-utero or already on the ground (if not an already broke horse).


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

no I do not plan on breeding her again. I had only planned on breeding her once and now that she is bred she will never be so again. And as for the baby if something does happen I already have two homes that would want it. I have backup plans for all my animals written into a will. I'm not impulsive when it comes to my animals and I thought a lot about it before deciding to breed Colly. I talked to friends, my vet, the stallion owner, went to see the stallion, talked to the stallion owners vet, planned out financially (including emergency funds)... I also researched a lot about what could happen and I am aware a lot of things can go wrong. While I can hope they don't if they do I know it was for a reason and I did everything I could.


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