# How are roaning and sabino linked? Or are they?



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Well, there is no "easy" answer, because we haven't isolated all the genes, so can't say for certain what is going on with each and every horse.

HOWEVER - the "easy" answer is that roan and sabino (at least, sabino 1, the only one we have isolated) are mutations of the same gene. Also included on this gene is tobiano and all the DW we have found so far. They are all mutations of the KIT locus. So it is not surprising to see similarities in the way the genes express, as well as differences. 

Let's have a look 









Puchilingui, a DW TB stallion. He is tested and verified as DW. 









A tested sabino 1 mare.









Tobiano with "cat tracks" and haloing.









"Classic" roan (and fricking gorgeous!).

As you can see, these all have similar phenotypes when you are looking for similarities  Same as classic bay, brown and wild bay, or pearl and cream.


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

My mare is classic roan and I just sent her hair in to see if she carries sabino, if she does it's VERY minimal. Sabino and roan (and tobiano) are located on the same locus (KIT) so a horse can be roan and sabino, but homozygous for neither.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Subbing.

It makes sense that they would be linked.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

It's interesting, looking at my baby..










Moderate sabino overo










Bred to a minimal sabino, no overo, no ticking










Created a sabino, overo (she's registered overo, but I haven't had her tested for frame yet to see if she is a definitive frame overo), extensive ticking/white hairs throughout and belly lacing.

I always thought the extra "roaning" was more a factor of rabicano than actual roan? I love learning about sabinos though so I'll follow this thread. They are a mystery.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

oh var oh I would call that last mare a rabicano.
I have an arabian mare with the same markings in her flank and between her forelegs. She produced a very loud rabicano filly this year and has produced two very loud black rabicanos. Shalom


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Thanks guys for the info!

I would be curious if this first horse below is sabino AND frame, or just sabino. Because if it is just sabino, then can sabino kind of mimic the spot pattern of frame, but with lacy edges? BUT if he is sabino AND frame, does sabino cause the frame spots to be lacy???

I actually see quite a few photos of paints with similar markings. And I always assumed they were frame. But frame alone (so they say) doesn't cause face and leg white. So obviously sabino is happening too. So if you get a roaned out "frame," I wonder if that is what sabino does to frame (makes the edges of the spots lacy), OR is it sabino alone causing this pattern?



oh vair oh said:


> It's interesting, looking at my baby..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmm. I have a theory! Could your baby above be both rabicano AND sabino? Because she definitely looks sabino (due to the extensive white markings) but dbarabians feels she is rabicano due to personal experience, and I can kind of see a "****" tail on her too. So maybe she is both?

Genetics are fascinating, aren't they?


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

I'm sure she is rabicano and sabino, both pretty minimal. So I'm guessing if she didn't have rabicano, she would be as solid as her mother is? If she had more overo characteristics, would her spots look like her fathers? Maybe this is a question for another thread, but is rabicano connected to the roan pattern as well? Hm...


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

all 3 of my rabicanos have belly spots and probably could be registered as pinto. Since Arabians are not true roans IMO and from reading the forum it seems sabino and rabicano are indeed linked.
From what I am observing in my breeding program you do need one rabicano parent to get a rabicano.
I have limited experience with this and am no way an expert like chillaa and ndappy as well as a few others. I will humbly bow to their superior knowledge if I am incorrect. Shalom


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Roan has nothing at all do with sabino. Just because they share some of the same effects does not mean they are the same gene.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Rabicano and Roan are completely different. I have several sabinos that are just sabinos, and I have a few sabinos/rabicanos. 
Connected? Hard to say. Why would one show up without the other then? I've seen a lot of rabicanos without any sabino markings, and vice versa. I think it's luck of the genetic draw. I don't think they go hand in hand.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

ponyboy said:


> Roan has nothing at all do with sabino. Just because they share some of the same effects does not mean they are the same gene.


They have isolated both Roan and Sabino 1, and they are both mutations of the same gene.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

trailhorserider said:


> I actually see quite a few photos of paints with similar markings. And I always assumed they were frame. But frame alone (so they say) doesn't cause face and leg white. So obviously sabino is happening too. So if you get a roaned out "frame," I wonder if that is what sabino does to frame (makes the edges of the spots lacy), OR is it sabino alone causing this pattern?


Re the orange. Frame does cause face white. Spice, a member's horse on here, is a great example. Her only white is her face white, and she is frame positive. The only clue was in her face white - frame likes white to spread horizontally, including when it is on the face, especially above the eyes. I suggested her owner test her, and it turned out she was positive.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

As another thought, I have a feeling that when they isolate rabicano, it too will be a KIT locus mutation. It too has the similar feel to it that the other KITs share.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> As another thought, I have a feeling that when they isolate rabicano, it too will be a KIT locus mutation. It too has the similar feel to it that the other KITs share.


I agree with this as well. The KIT locus is pretty neat the different genes on it can cause little white markings to an almost completely white horse like my sorrel DW paint Pepper. White patterns are so fun and unpredictable.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^How interesting! :O


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Chiilaa said:


> They have isolated both Roan and Sabino 1, and they are both mutations of the same gene.


So they are no longer the same gene. They don't have the same effects either. I don't see how anyone could confuse the two.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

ponyboy said:


> So they are no longer the same gene. They don't have the same effects either. I don't see how anyone could confuse the two.


They are not the same gene, but they ARE related. Just like bay and brown are related. They DO have similar expression, while not the same expression, but close enough to see similarities.

In no way am I saying they do the same thing, so please don't imply that.


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## Kaleighlg (Aug 7, 2013)

I was very interested to read this thread, and im not a genetic wiz! so I learned something!

Thanks yall!


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