# Stallion behaviour 'n' stuff



## Bellasmom

IMO, the single most powerful influence on a stallion's behavior is the handler. Regardless of breed, age, breeding experience....every well mannered stallion I've known has had the benefit of a knowledgable handler. If he is a sweet natured boy, he should stay that way IF you know what you are doing.


----------



## Cherrij

Bellasmom said:


> IMO, the single most powerful influence on a stallion's behavior is the handler. Regardless of breed, age, breeding experience....every well mannered stallion I've known has had the benefit of a knowledgable handler. If he is a sweet natured boy, he should stay that way IF you know what you are doing.


Thanks for the input. I have changed the behaviour or many horses, I had to handle quite a macho type stallion this summer at work - he would ignore personal space, prance about when being led, try to nibble and bite when being cleaned or when box was being cleaned - strict rules in the box and calm, but strict behaviour around him made him walk like a puppy with me. When I pointed that out to the rider, he just said - he is sniffing mare hoofprints.. but I knew it was not it. cuz first week or so he used to rear up near mare boxes, and then he would just walk nicely


----------



## waresbear

Yes it can affect his behaviour, like fight to the death with that gelding you plan on turning him out with. All it takes it a whiff in the air and he think he smells a mare, and the gelding is a competitor which means drive him off or kill him if he fights back.


----------



## Cherrij

waresbear said:


> Yes it can affect his behaviour, like fight to the death with that gelding you plan on turning him out with. All it takes it a whiff in the air and he think he smells a mare, and the gelding is a competitor which means drive him off or kill him if he fights back.


As said, no mares around for miles. The gelding is also very gentle and calm - atm lives with mares and one baby stallion, and a gelding, no problems caused. Used to be stallion till last spring, never caused any problems.


----------



## waresbear

I wouldn't risk it, but its your choice.


----------



## Left Hand Percherons

Cherrij said:


> He is very gentle, cuddly and nice.


Thinking about a stallion in these terms will get you in trouble big time.


----------



## Cherrij

Left Hand Percherons said:


> Thinking about a stallion in these terms will get you in trouble big time.


Well, all the cuddly stallions I handled never got me in trouble. They are not vicious monsters to be scared of. 
I know I can handle one, and of course I will never be careless etc.. 

on the other hand, forgot to say, I know a stallion being turned out with geldings, there are mares on the property, he never caused problems. 
He used to be on a pasture next to the mares he was to cover or had already, and the mares broke the fencing got him with them, but he just stayed away most the time. 
And our breed is known for very gentle characters in all mares and stallions


----------



## waresbear

So, you want someone to tell you it's ok? Ok, go ahead.


----------



## Lins

Out of curiosity, what is "our breed"?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cherrij

waresbear said:


> So, you want someone to tell you it's ok? Ok, go ahead.


No, no really. I know it can be ok. 
I want more than "you are asking for trouble" "he can kill the other horse" etc.
More explaining comments based on experiences, not just attitudes towards stallions.

Lins: The breed is Latvian driving horse.


----------



## Muppetgirl

Stallions can kill geldings. You have no idea how this stallion is going to react to your gelding. I just wouldn't risk it myself. Also, you say the mares broke the fence down to get in with this stallion??? Hmmm I'd be more inclined to think he broke the fence down.

I'm also curious as to what breed this horse is.


----------



## Cherrij

Muppetgirl said:


> Stallions can kill geldings. You have no idea how this stallion is going to react to your gelding. I just wouldn't risk it myself. Also, you say the mares broke the fence down to get in with this stallion??? Hmmm I'd be more inclined to think he broke the fence down.
> 
> I'm also curious as to what breed this horse is.


I said this Other stallion is a case where actually he was the victim of the mares, not he causing problems. 

We actually saw one of the mares run through the fence. The stallion was calmly grazing most of the time so ye.. 

I know its hard to get past bias and stereotypes, but I asked for experience out of curiosity


----------



## Muppetgirl

Cherrij said:


> No, no really. I know it can be ok.
> I want more than "you are asking for trouble" "he can kill the other horse" etc.
> More explaining comments based on experiences, not just attitudes towards stallions.
> 
> Lins: The breed is Latvian driving horse.


Ok, explanation based on experience:

Stallions will and can fight to the death with geldings or other stallions, especially breeding stallions, older stallions and unfamiliar horses. Stallions will also attack mares they don't approve of. I have seen all these things.....that's my experience. 

There was an incident at Olds college here in Alberta a while back, where some yahoos let the studs all out into a common area together.....one was killed.

How is that for experience......


----------



## waresbear

The smell of a mare is enough to trigger these inherant responses and the mare can be miles away. But again, if you feel want to take the risk, go ahead, but from my experience, I would not. My horses are too valuable to take the risk.


----------



## NdAppy

Muppetgirl said:


> Stallions can kill geldings. You have no idea how this stallion is going to react to your gelding. I just wouldn't risk it myself. Also, you say the mares broke the fence down to get in with this stallion??? Hmmm I'd be more inclined to think he broke the fence down.
> 
> I'm also curious as to what breed this horse is.


Mares can and do bust down fences to get to stallions... I happen to own one that has done just that in the past.


----------



## Cherrij

Well, here is experiences. Again, one of many. As we all know, stallions are individuals, however they should not be kept in solitude. So what exactly are you against? The fact I want a stallion, or the fact he will be out with a gelding? If it wont work we will find a solutions. Not all stallions attack, and I really have no wish tempting them with mares.. 

I do know how to introduce horses to new pasture friends. Its not like I will take the stallion, the gelding and throw them out in the field and leave them be. 

So ok, i get that the opinion at the moment is, keep stallions stalled away from mares.


----------



## Muppetgirl

Cherrij said:


> Well, here is experiences. Again, one of many. As we all know, stallions are individuals, however they should not be kept in solitude. So what exactly are you against? The fact I want a stallion, or the fact he will be out with a gelding? If it wont work we will find a solutions. Not all stallions attack, and I really have no wish tempting them with mares..
> 
> I do know how to introduce horses to new pasture friends. Its not like I will take the stallion, the gelding and throw them out in the field and leave them be.
> 
> So ok, i get that the opinion at the moment is, keep stallions stalled away from mares.


Hmmmm wow, didn't think I said I was against you wanting a stallion, nor the fact that he is going to be turned out with a gelding. You asked for opinions and you got them. And yes, keep stallions away (not stalled) from mares unless you want a whole pile of foals falling on the ground.....


----------



## waresbear

I don't know the breed charateristics of a Lativan Driving Horse, but in my experience with stallions (I own a gelding who was a breeding stallion for a dozen years), they are first & foremost a breeding animal. Yes, you can train them to be gentlemen and behave properly around mares, etc, etc. BUT, instincts can take over when they are not under your control and they will do the things mother nature has programmed them to do, like attack another male to preserve their seed from carrying on. I have no problem with an experienced breeder keeping a stallion with mares, my former stallion was kept pastured along side of mares. He is now gelded, and it took him a while before he would except the company of a gelding, he attacked several through fences a year after he was gelded. Then he was alone for a month on a new place, he was pretty lonely, even looking for my dogs as company. Then my other gelding come home from training, (his son by the way), they stayed in side by side paddocks, then let out in pasture together, not much squabbling, but his younger son is the boss no doubt because it is "his" home to begin with, his dad was the late comer. Would I have just brought him home as a stallion & done this? No way in hell!


----------



## Celeste

I don't think that anybody is against stallions. It is just that people that have experience with stallions know that they require special facilities. I have seen two types of management that worked. 

1. The stallion is alone in secure fencing.
2. The stallion is with a little band of mares in secure fencing.

Stallions can and will kill geldings. They will escape their fencing and get in with other people's mares. They will get shot by angry mare owners. They will attack their owners. I know of one man that was severely injured when his cute and cuddly stallion tried to breed him. The man was knocked to the ground and his back was injured severely.

It is not their fault. They are simply animals acting on their instincts.

If you have a valuable stallion, that is great. Just be responsible and keep him secured. 

Also, it is not right to get that gelding killed. You owe him better than that.


----------



## Cherrij

Thanks for the input. 
This is not spur of the moment decision. I have found one I like, and might get him, but nothing is set in stone. 
I have always wanted a stallion and have worked with different ones, and have seen the difference of the one running with geldings, a month after all mares moved away, I have seen stalled stallion being crazy when walked past other horses, but well behaved in cleaning spaces, and have seen a stallion not even look at mares, yet another one would not stand still in a competition place. they are all different and i believe it highly depends on how they are treated and raised. 

around my territory goes a proper fence (to keep the dogs in and the deer out) which will also have electric fencing run along it, and 3 layered electric fencing to keep the horses on the pastures not my yard 
It will be hard for them to get off my property if they feel the need for it for some reason, but i dont intend to tempt it. 

anyway, what I mean to say is that I know my risks, I do not intend to harm the gelding, and soon we find out how exactly the stallion has lived up to now.. 

Has anyone had experience with a stallion that never bred?


----------



## waresbear

The only people I know that kept stallions just for the sake of having a stallion was a lady who was an animal hoarder and kept 6 stallions in a barn for a over a decade, the SPCA seized them, the others just probably couldn't afford to geld because those were on rickety premises and the owners had lots of horses that weren't cared for properly. Everyone else gelds stallions that are not intended for breeding.


----------



## Bellasmom

I do think it's rather selfish to keep a stallion entire simply to fulfill a personal fantasy. I have had mares, geldings, and stallions as personal horses at various times in my life & in my opinion, stallions are not the best choice for pleasure horses. And when someone's says "but I've always wanted a stallion!" it throws up a red flag for me, sorry.


----------



## Critter sitter

we have a stallion at the barn I board at he is 2 1/2. My gelding is stalled next to him. they get along great BUT we are super careful and Tater the stallion has not covered a mare. and she does not plan in using him for some time .She is training him slowly under saddle. he is not let loose with mares or geldings he can interact with others though and has not acted studly. He has been to Moc ranch sortings just to "watch" and I am sure they had mares close by. he was a very well behaved boy. He was tied in the arena once with a mare in heat being worked close by and you would have never would have known it.
I am sure as is his owner that he can change in a instant. If you know what you are doing I don't see a problem . But question... what is the reasoning in keeping him a stud if you do not plan on using him as one?


----------



## cmarie

Young stallions are like teenage boys they have one thing on their minds, and that is to breed. Some are gentle and some are unpredictable, your taking this young stud out of his environment and putting him in a new one, where pecking order has to be established, it doesn't matter how gentle and nice this youngster is there will be fighting to establish dominance. Young studs don't seem to know when to stop. Your best bet would to be to separate them and see how the do over the fence. My stallion bites the hot wire and pulls it down it has no effect on him at all his breeding instinct is too strong. I have one gelding that my stallion can be around and they have been around each other since the stud was a yearling. But the are not penned together the stud has in own pen.


----------



## Left Hand Percherons

Cherrij said:


> Well, all the cuddly stallions I handled never got me in trouble. They are not vicious monsters to be scared of.
> I know I can handle one, and of course I will never be careless etc..


When you refer to a stallion as a cuddly animal, you are denial that a stallion, no matter the breed, training or prior handling, can potentially be a loaded gun. You must be his leader, his boss, you must have defined lines that he can never cross. You are never his buddy. If he's a pocket pony, there are no lines, no manners and when you least expect it, something will trigger him and you won't know what hit you. Stallions should never be vicious monsters but they must be respected for what they are, a very large and powerful breeding animal first and foremost. 

I have worked with non breeding stallions. I worked for a well known arab breeder who had 9 stallions but only stood 3 of them. The non used stallions ranged in age from 4-12. They were all exquisite animals but not the "flavor" of the day back in the height of the Bask craze. They were all worked daily and turned out a minimum of 1/2 day and could interact with each other in the barn. They were well socialized and received top care. The older ones were nice to be around but the young ones were jerks and dangerous if you gave them an inch. They were an invaluable introduction to stallion ownership.


----------



## SlideStop

You opposed to the idea of keeping a stallion alone...?

But your perfectly cool with keeping a stallion intacted, raging full of hormones, that you have no intention of breeding...? 

Now THAT is down right cruel! 

If your going to breed him either he has it or he don't. If you have to wait and decide on adding him to a "breeding program" he probably isn't stallion material.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## equiniphile

Okay, you don't want to hear this. But it has to be said, and I would feel guilty if I didn't address it.

Owning a stallion for no reason other than to own a stallion is _selfish_. Being a stallion confines an animal to a life of solitude, raging hormones and even a shorter lifespan with a higher risk of health problems than geldings. Non-breeding stallions often become frustrated and excitable, and I have personally seen and heard of them lashing out in frustration. To intentionally do this to a horse that's serving no purpose in the breeding shed is, in my opinion, incredibly irresponsible.

Just owning a stallion sets you up for many risks, not to mention the risks to your gelding. Would you really inflict that kind of danger on him? For what? So you can say you own a stallion?

Don't get me wrong--I have nothing against responsible stallion owners and breeders whose studs are serving a purpose. However, when I see situations like this I just have to shake my head. A very small percentage of male horses deserve to keep their manhood. Why not geld those that aren't serving a purpose by bettering the breed?

Okay, I'm off my soap box now.


----------



## SlideStop

Well said equiniphile!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cherrij

First. 
It is not "just so I can say I am a stallion owner."
I am considering this carefully. This stallion I have looked has been bred without a breeding programme and his owners couldn't care enough to check if he is worth it. I would. And if he became too agressive or unstable due to his hormones, he would be gelded. However, if he was a good stallion and any of his kids turned out ok, I would breed again. Hard to tell when we have our stallion checks when they are 3 or 4, no earlier. If one didnt get the stallion checked by the association as a baby already, you wait and see - they need to show driving and riding too. 

Second, somebody said about splitting them up, I already said, I ain't gonna just throw them both in a pasture together and leave them be and expect all to be perfect. I do know how to introduce horses. 

Third, all horses around be behave with respect and trust, doesn't matter if its a stallion, or a moody pony mare, they all learn to behave and respect me and my personal space, no pushing, no begging for food, nothing. I have made stallion stop trying to nip everyone, same as mares and geldings. 

I am grateful for the input from you. One day I will have my perfect horse that will serve its purpose in life - to live. Not because he is built for sport, or was a pasture accident, or someone abused it.. but because he is my friend and we can have a great time together. 
And at the moment I am not sure I can take this stallion anymore, as I am not sure that I can deal with the fact that he is 3, and had a mare accident - a mare kicked his eye out. I am sad the owners hid that from the first conversation, and also, not sure I can be completely selfless and make his life as he deserves it adding the extra care. 
So I guess none of you have to worry that me and a gelding will get killed by raging hormones of a crazy 3 yr old stallion.


----------



## Celeste

I am sorry to hear that the stallion lost his eye. It is certainly not your fault since it is not even your horse. This is, however, the kind of thing that everybody was worried about. Stallions push themselves on other horses and somebody gets hurt. If he had been gelded, he would not be in this mess.

I hope that you find your perfect horse. Please don't feel bad that people sounded so anti-stallion. Many of us have been hurt and seen people and horse hurt by the raging hormones that stallions have.


----------



## jaydee

Stallions can be so unpredictable and the best stallion handlers in top studs will tell you no matter how nice they are and how 'normal' they seem you NEVER take your eye of the game when you're around them. These people are experts and they have survived accidents by being careful - that is not the same as being nervous.
I've known stallions that were no more difficult than any other horse, one even worked in a riding school all year round and some competed and travelled with mares but I've known them to change very suddenly for no apparent reason and become like different horses. I also knew one that would have a go at jumping any fence if he could scent a mare for miles around - and he was a saint to ride and handle
I would think very carefully about keeping him entire, the horse market is in a dreadful mess and I don't see it improving any time soon so his breeding days could be a long way off, he could have a much more normal life if he was castrated.


----------



## BlueSpark

a couple experiences of mine.

BO had (temporarily)two stallions, both very easy to handle, neither had caused any problems, both pastured on separate side of the farm. the wind was blowing wrong one spring day, one of the must have smelled a mare in heat and the other stallion. he battered the 5' tall pole corral he was in until enough rails broke out he could jump it, ran across the farm, found the other stallion in the 6' pole corral(poles bolted onto telephone poles in the ground), RAN INTO the poles intill he broke them(nearly disfiguring himself in the process) and started a fight with the other stud. it took 3 experienced people, whips and a lariat to get them appart.

also know someone who had the most gentle quarter horse stud, kids could ride him and anyone could handle him with just a rope halter. she felt bad during the winter with him pastured alone, so she took a well mannered gelding that was 8" taller than him and introduced them. they seemed fine after several hours together. when not supervised the stallion turned on the gelding. the owner found the gelding(after just a few hours) bruised, battered, exhausted and covered head to hoof in bite wounds.

like everyone has said, a stallions primary focus in life is breeding. mares have that issue a few days a month, a stallion always has that on his mind. i have known some incredible, well behaved stallions, but I think keeping one without giving them any sort of outlet for their natural inclination to breed is unfair. I will never personally own a stallion for this reason.


----------



## DuffyDuck

My own experience?

I was searching for a riding horse, and purchased a 3yo stallion. Big fella at 16.2hh, but had yet to mature in to his body.

Brought him to my yard, and my trainer, at the time, said to keep him complete. 

This horse trailed an hour for the first time, got off on the yard and walked in the school in hand like he'd been there his whole life.

For the first month EVERYTHING was perfect. I kept him away from mares, I could ride with mares, his manners were impeccable. 

But I found I wasn't enjoying him. He couldn't be turned out. If your friends come to the yard after dealing with their mares, how'd you think he is going to respond? If I had perfume on, he would snort and brighten up. 

I have experience with stallions previously, and you as an owner have the duty of care to proctect others and their horses. I couldn't turn him out, I couldn't put him in a grooming bay next to mares as other owners freaked out. I was CONSTANTLY judged. This horse NEVER put a toe out of line.

A month later I gelded him and it has improved his quality of life, and I am now enjoying my horse rather than thinking all the "what ifs". 

My advice? Geld, or buy a gelding. Buy a mare if you want to breed. If at nearly three years old he hasn't proven himself as a breeding stallion, he most likely won't. 

You will only have control of 99% of that brain, and for me I want to be able to enjoy my horse rather than having to look out for other dangers past the norm. 

If you go away on holiday, who will be able to handle him?

If you are ill, who will take care of him?

Leave breeding to the experts.

I was the owner of a good stallion, I am now the owner of an amazing gelding.


----------



## greentree

I own what is possibly the GENTLEST stallion on Earth.....I think he would babysit a 3 yo child. As a 3 yo horse, he was the one we put the Russian tourists on to get the requisite "visit to Texas" cowboy photo. They could even ride him. 

I cannot turn this horse out with a gelding!! He doesn't hurt them, but he scrapes them up chewing on them. I would not turn him out with other horses, unless they were old barren mares, or bred mares. He has been in those situations.

Sorry to hear about the horse you were looking at, that is a shame!

Nancy


----------



## Ashleysmardigrasgirl

I forgot where I read this but,


Mares goes through life looking for food and for a few days a month are moody

Stallions go through life wandering about looking for food and a mare and isn't contented until both are satisfied.

Geldings go through life looking for food and friends


----------



## Cherrij

Thanks for responses. 
He needs saving - he is a fine horse ( saw videos ). At the age of 3 he doesn't give legs, last ferrier visit was july maybe, runs with 2 mares that beat him all the time, his eye is still there, but completely blind - but such poor people cannot do anything about it. Everything seems like it can be fixed, and I know that if it will not work out keeping him as a stallion, he will be castrated. He is a bit spooky and unsure of himself, but I am sure lots will still change in him. 
At the moment its just about making the right decision - If I have the chance to save him from a possible miserable life, why not do it? 
He is partly neglected already - the area he was in with the mares is horrible, and apparently the people live in very poor housing, even though the woman of the house seemed nice, its not a family that should have 3 horses.


----------



## Celeste

If he were gelded, the mares would most likely not beat him up. He needs saving and gelding. Then he may have a chance to be a normal horse.


----------



## scubadreams

The problem I have with your statement regarding if he becomes too aggressive or unstable that you would geld him then...you would be "pride cutting" him and he would still have all the same problems only without the beans.



Cherrij said:


> First.
> It is not "just so I can say I am a stallion owner."
> I am considering this carefully. This stallion I have looked has been bred without a breeding programme and his owners couldn't care enough to check if he is worth it. I would. And if he became too agressive or unstable due to his hormones, he would be gelded. However, if he was a good stallion and any of his kids turned out ok, I would breed again. Hard to tell when we have our stallion checks when they are 3 or 4, no earlier. If one didnt get the stallion checked by the association as a baby already, you wait and see - they need to show driving and riding too.
> 
> Second, somebody said about splitting them up, I already said, I ain't gonna just throw them both in a pasture together and leave them be and expect all to be perfect. I do know how to introduce horses.
> 
> Third, all horses around be behave with respect and trust, doesn't matter if its a stallion, or a moody pony mare, they all learn to behave and respect me and my personal space, no pushing, no begging for food, nothing. I have made stallion stop trying to nip everyone, same as mares and geldings.
> 
> I am grateful for the input from you. One day I will have my perfect horse that will serve its purpose in life - to live. Not because he is built for sport, or was a pasture accident, or someone abused it.. but because he is my friend and we can have a great time together.
> And at the moment I am not sure I can take this stallion anymore, as I am not sure that I can deal with the fact that he is 3, and had a mare accident - a mare kicked his eye out. I am sad the owners hid that from the first conversation, and also, not sure I can be completely selfless and make his life as he deserves it adding the extra care.
> So I guess none of you have to worry that me and a gelding will get killed by raging hormones of a crazy 3 yr old stallion.


----------



## EvilHorseOfDoom

And sometimes it's not the stallion being aggressive too. My gelding is studdish enough that mares in heat go gaga over him - which is just just a bit embarrassing - but he sniffed a (usually sweet) mare that was not in heat one time and she threw a kick out. It nearly got me instead. He didn't even touch her, they were standing next to each other at the traffic lights (ready to be led around the park) and he just flipped his lip and said something vulgar in horsey language. She cracked it and threw out a kick. Similarly, you might have been hurt by the mare who injured his eye had you been there (and if his owners didn't reveal that then I'd wonder what else they were hiding).

So even if a stallion is a sweetheart, a mare might not appreciate his eyeing her. Or a studdish gelding might take exception to his presence and have a go. Stallions just make everything a lot more complicated. Heck, I know a few mare owners who wish they had a similar procedure to fix the hormone issues in their horses!


----------



## TheLastUnicorn

I had a big post written (including photos) and it disappeared into web space ... 
The jist of it being, I have seen successful "bachelor" groups done by other breeders, and I generally do try to keep stallions with other stallions or geldings whenever it is possible. IME I have had a lot of success, but it doesn't always work out. 

There are a lot of factors and management that go into it though, and at the end if the day you need to ask yourself if it's right for you and your individual horses. 

I have one guy here right now who has a pony gelding who is his buddy - that pony is the only male horse he seems content to live peacefully with, and there have been times (in early spring) where I have even separated them because the play was getting too serious. (It's all fun and games until someone goes too far) 

I choose to try to keep stallions with geldings/studs, especially when they are young because I fully believe it is best for their mental health - but I don't blindly throw random horses together, I keep them on LARGE acreage, I don't house mares nearby, and I am always prepared (with extra help) to separate and keep them alone. Once they become mature, and/or have been bred, I keep a close eye on them and will separate when it is noted that there are more territorial postures happening. 

I have noted that a well socialized colt generally makes the best candidate for bachelor grouping... But even then, dynamics can change once he starts breeding. 

If you choose to try... Get to know your stud well first, ensure he sees you as supreme boss - that alone has allowed me to break through hormones in cases where the boys need separating. (When it is ingrained in a horse's mind that when you show up and give a command, he MUST listen) NEVER get between two fighting horses, and always be prepared for the horses to have other ideas about what makes a good buddy. 
I can add more later when I get back from playing with my horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheLastUnicorn

scubadreams said:


> The problem I have with your statement regarding if he becomes too aggressive or unstable that you would geld him then...you would be "pride cutting" him and he would still have all the same problems only without the beans.


This is not actually true anymore in most parts of the world. I had this question for our vet when we gelded a mature stallion who had been bred in the past, and he said that provided you do the full gelding procedure (having watched a few of these now, they remove the testicles and another, I want to say gland of some sort - I did ask once, but have forgotten what he called it (it looks a bit like a mini brain... Which led to tons of jokes.  ) the horse is a gelding, and after 6 months to a year should not produce testosterone in high enough levels to have hormone related stallion behaviors anymore. (Now, there are a host of stallion behaviors that are learned or conditioned too... And let's not kid ourselves, a gelding is still a stallion when it comes to how he thinks - it's just that his motivation is changed) 

"Proud cut" is apparently what will happen if you only remove the testicles from a sexually mature stallion. (Sexual maturity, he explained, varies from horse to horse and is different than their physical maturity).


----------



## Celeste

Actually a "proud cut" horse is a horse that still produces testosterone. This is typically due to his anatomy being a little bit wrong so that part of the testicle is left behind. The epididymis is mistaken for an undersized testicle rather than only part of it. The main bulk of the testicle is retained in the body and the person removing it thinks that they got it all.


----------



## doubleopi

Left Hand Percherons said:


> I have worked with non breeding stallions. I worked for a well known arab breeder who had 9 stallions but only stood 3 of them. The non used stallions ranged in age from 4-12. *They were all exquisite animals but not the "flavor" of the day back in the height of the Bask craze.* They were all worked daily and turned out a minimum of 1/2 day and could interact with each other in the barn. They were well socialized and received top care. The older ones were nice to be around but the young ones were jerks and dangerous if you gave them an inch. They were an invaluable introduction to stallion ownership.




Just because they weren't being used because they weren't of popular bloodlines, does that mean they need to be gelded? (I'm not asking you directly Left Hand Percherons, just in general) What about preserving bloodlines and genetic diversity? 

I'm all for removing reproductive organs, but at some point...Meh, it's the internet, who know who has what sort of experience, truthfully.


----------



## TheAQHAGirl

If you don't have any intention of breeding him, then geld him. Its not fair and its not right to keep him like that and say, "Oh no you can't do what your mind is telling you to do," and so on.

Maybe collect some of the 'goods' and geld him now and then in the future see if anyone would like to buy them. I have heard that is what a lot of people are doing now.


----------



## horsecrazygirl

Just like your planing on saving the stallion form the kindness of your heart, out of that same kindness, geld him. I promise you will not regret it. He will love you forever.


----------



## dbarabians

I do not trust my stallion with another male equine. Not even the donkey. A foal or colt under 2 maybe but not a gelding and never another stallion.
I have already had one gelding savaged by him. I keep him at least 2 fences away from other males.
If there were no mares within a few miles I might consider it. Most of the horses I own are mares so there are always mares cycling here. Shalom


----------



## Allison Finch

I have handled many stallions. I am of the opinion that one must be very experienced to handle them well. I am sorry but I don't get the feeling that you are very well trained in dealing with stallion behavior. If you do not know what you are doing, they can become unpredictable and even dangerous....not only to you but to other people and equines.

I would say that always WANTING a stallion is not good enough. I would suggest you find a stallion station or breeding operation in your area and offer to work with the purpose of learning what to do when stallions exhibit their normal, but unsettling, behaviors. Learn from people who do it every day. You just may decide that the REAL responsible is more than you want.


----------



## Delfina

You want experiences?

My neighbor has a gelding that wasn't gelded until he was 13. He is HELL BENT on killing geldings. He attacked my horse (I was unaware of the situation and idiot neighbor who KNEW, threw up some crap fence attached to mine and put his gelding next to mine) and I ended up with massive vet bills and now have my gelding boarded for his safety. 

Stallion down the road from us broke down his gate, proceeded to bash through or tear down everyone's fences, bred one mare and then he and the neighbor's gelding got into a massive fight. Once again... the Vet won. Stallion ended up with multiple sets of stitches, the gelding had 45 stitches and 2 drains. I ended up with the gelding at my place and having to go out there and change bandages, re-open and clear the drains and administer meds multiple times a day.

Their sweet as pie Stallion? Took 12 people to catch him and FOUR people, a stud chain and multiple whips to catch. He wanted to keep on going down the road and create hell at other people's places too! 

Last thing I want is a Stallion. I don't even want a late-gelded horse ever again. I am so tired of playing the "Well who can we turn him out with.... not geldings, he'll beat 'em up or mount them. Not mares, turns into a love-sick psycho with zero brain cells if you take them away".... my halter-horse stallion turned gelding is stuck with a couple minis because that's all we have that is intelligent and fast enough to not stand around and let him torture them. He loves his minis..... and he hates his minis....


----------



## rbarlo32

If you are not wanting to breed from him then geld him. I have 2 stallions 11 and 7, 2 colts 7 and 1 and a 7 year old gelding that all live together, the 2 colts will be gelded at some point though. The only time we have had any injuries is when I had two mares down near the boys temporarily and they broke out of their field when across the road and broke into the boys field. The only ponies I don't trust in that field is the gelding and the 7 year old colt. The 7 year old colt if wild. Only on of these boys have ever bred and he is the bottom of the pecking order, he is such a fuss around any other pony. Maybe I have just been lucky but that isn't the case for everyone. They do on occasion play fight but it is play and no one gets hurt.


----------



## Left Hand Percherons

doubleopi said:


> Just because they weren't being used because they weren't of popular bloodlines, does that mean they need to be gelded? (I'm not asking you directly Left Hand Percherons, just in general) What about preserving bloodlines and genetic diversity?
> .[/FONT][/COLOR]


I think that this is the only reason to hold onto a stallion and not cut him if you do not plan on breeding him in the near future. Perhaps you are growing out some fillies you want to outcross with him once they are ready to be worked into a breeding program. I think the smaller breeds get into genetic Russian Roulette by only using and promoting the fad or popular line at the time. Genetic material is lost all the time and you end up with a terribly inbred breed. The stallion candidates must first be outstanding examples of the breed.


----------



## Annanoel

All I can say with this thread is WHY? In my opinion and obviously others it's _selfish_ to keep him a stud. I really still don't understand why you want to keep his "jewels" if you have no plan to use him in an ESTABLISHED breeding program. It's an accident or even accidents waiting to happen. He may be sweet as pie now until the hormones rage through him one day. It'd be better for his overall quality of life if you just geld him. Everyone is trying to help and give you experiences they've had, I've seen these things first hand as well. Stallions are NOT something to mess with.


----------



## Palomine

I grew up hearing about the ASB stallion Omans Desdemona Denmark and how he almost tore trainer's arm off in stall, he got trainer by bicep and went to whirling around and around with the man's arm in his teeth.

I also remember the woman who was lunging a stallion in round pen, Zan Parr Bar bred stallion, who suddenly charged her, got her down and knelt on her and was crushing her while biting at her head. She had worked with him many many times and was a trainer, not just someone who only dealt with him once in while.

I've worked with them and they all bear watching, just because they are stallions.


----------



## Cherrij

Thanks for the input guys, but even though most people are biased against stallions, I have seen plenty mares and geldings who would love to rip your head off if they could. 

And for the breeding, our system is a bit different, and first I want to check everything out there and then decide if he stays for breeding or not.


----------



## DimSum

What you see here is not a "bias" being expressed, the posts are reality based experiences and opinions. What you choose to do with them is of course up to you


----------



## bsms

There is a huge difference between someone being "biased" against stallions, and saying what their experience has been with them. If I commented, it would be 'bias' or more accurately, "hearsay". I've never worked with stallions.

Solomon said:

"_Without counsel plans fail, but with many advisers they succeed._" 

Of course, Solomon expected folks to FOLLOW advice...:?


----------



## Cherrij

It is bias in a way, because most people have had bad experiences with stallions. 
And I never said I am not following advice. same as I never said I am buying the horse right now, and that I would force his owners ( poor people ) to castrate him before I get him - I can do that later too, he is coming very cheap due to eye loss anyway..


----------



## bsms

Cherrij said:


> It is bias in a way, because most people have had bad experiences with stallions...


No. Bias means you are prejudiced - possessing "an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason".

If people have had bad experiences with stallions, their opinions are not formed "without knowledge, thought or reason". It means their opinion has been formed *BY* knowledge, thought, and reason.

You may decide their experiences would differ from yours because you have X, Y & Z involved and they did not. That is fine - your decision to make. But someone who shares their experiences and reasons is not a biased, prejudiced person trying to pee on your Wheaties, as the American slang expression goes. They are trying to help you form an intelligent opinion by taking the time to share what happened to them. They are being nice...


----------



## Cherrij

bsms said:


> No. Bias means you are prejudiced - possessing "an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason".
> 
> If people have had bad experiences with stallions, their opinions are not formed "without knowledge, thought or reason". It means their opinion has been formed *BY* knowledge, thought, and reason.
> 
> You may decide their experiences would differ from yours because you have X, Y & Z involved and they did not. That is fine - your decision to make. But someone who shares their experiences and reasons is not a biased, prejudiced person trying to pee on your Wheaties, as the American slang expression goes. They are trying to help you form an intelligent opinion by taking the time to share what happened to them. They are being nice...


Ok, I didn't try to offend anyone, that was definitely not what I meant. I do not think that people just want to make me feel bad, and with the recent discussions about stallions, I already knew part of what I will hear. 
and with the recent university work I have done, Bias can have a few different meanings. I could try to say that its not truly objective opinions and experiences here, same as I don't have truly objective opinion - we haven't all experienced everything. 
I apologize if anyone who expressed their opinions and experiences feels offended. That was not my intention. 
I am going through a lot of options in my head and sometimes I wish I could win the lottery, buy bigger land and buy all kinds of horses I want. But this pal really needs a good, safe home. So that is what I think me and my friend will try to provide, even if it means he will be gelded, restricted pastures due to the eye etc etc... If and when I buy him, I will do my best to give him what he deserves.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn

My experiences have shown me that usually stallions end up with their reputation through human interference and the way they are kept/handled. 

Stallions are horses first and stallions second, BUT, being a stallion usually comes with an increase of dominance. This is often a non-issue until the day someone (or another horse) tries to dominate them - at which point it is not at all uncommon for their fight instinct to take over, and a stallion's fight instinct tells him he must fight until he wins, or die trying. 

This is further impacted when they are not allowed to be a horse... Now they have instincts telling them to do something, but little or no learned experience to direct that instinct. This is when most stallions become the proverbial "dangerous animal". They do not know anything but that instinct which tells them to fight, or be killed trying. 

In the wild, while there is one herd (breeding) stallion, there is also an array of "bachelors" who live on the outskirts of the main herd and co-exist, mostly, peacefully. This is generally because unless a younger stallion is born very dominant or another stallion from a different territory comes in - few will actually challenge the authority of the herd stallion. Generally a herd stallion can recognize this, and as long as he feels he is given the respect he is due, will allow those other stallions to live with the herd - as horses were meant to live. Generally fights are minimal, short lived and do not result in serious injury. There are exceptions though, especially when a stallion of equal or greater dominance comes along... Then it is the last man holding his ground - and that is where it has been noted that stallions will fight to the death. (When one or the other simply refuses to back down, they WILL keep going until it is decided by death)

Where this can impact domestic stallions in a herd turnout is when they either have never been raised to understand herd order (so a horse who is not naturally a born leader, but has never had to give ground to another horse - we will see social issues with mares or geldings like this too. These horses often become "bullies", or get the butt whooping of their life, as they do not know how to read the signs of a more alpha horse or those of a horse willing to submit to them... And things get carried away as the other individuals do what they feel they must), or when one is born naturally dominant and the human has failed to recognize this, inadvertantly turning him out with other alpha personalities (or tried to "teach him a lesson" by putting him with more alpha males... Which is often a recipe for disaster)

It also can impact a domesticated stallion during handling. It does not take much for a human to trigger that "fight or die trying" instinct. There is little difference between another stallion trying to aggressively dominate him or a human, especially to a stallion who has no idea about equine social order. Added to that fine line, is the fact that stallions kept in constant seclusion, aside from breeding time, are often already highly frustrated, making that thin line even thinner. A stallion constantly handled in fear, or constantly antagonized by his human handler is far more likely to lash out than one who has simply be handled in a way where he knows his boundaries. (And still, accidents have been known to happen, all it takes is for a hairy situation to come up and the person handling to be distracted for a few seconds)

What I have found common to ALL stallions is they are ready and willing to take over control of any situation, if they feel they need to... It takes a cool head and firm (but NEVER aggressive) hand to let them know they can relax and let the person make the decisions. Some stallions are more inclined to accept that than others, and young ones, almost always, are more ready than older ones (who already know they need not bother) to keep on asking if they need to take over. What often goes wrong, even with professional trainers, is the human crosses that line between "firm" and aggressive (usually when they got caught out, made an error, missed their timing etc. and are now in a position where they either need to make a "big statement" to the horse or "let the moment go" - most stallion handlers are taught to NEVER let the horse think he has the upper hand. This isn't all wrong, a stallion who thinks he is head honcho, even over humans, will be risky to handle at the best of times, but again, fine fine line... And where things will usually turn volitile.)

A stallion, to be as safe as possible to handle, needs to know, best early on, that people are not to fight, they are to trust and follow. This is most successful when the human is able to teach him to trust and follow in a consistent, firm, but not combative manner. This isn't to say you don't correct him, you do... And you do it with impeccable timing (if you can't time it right, you WILL have a problem... Timed right it is a correction, timed wrong you are being combative)... You also always need to be aware of your surroundings, and how they will affect his instincts - let's face it, he will NEVER fully trust you (and therefore be prone to those spontaneous actions which make many call stallions "dangerous") if you set him up for failure, or worse, let him down so he feels he MUST take over. 

So no, those here who are coming across as "anti stallion" are not truly biased... There are some very real dangers to owning a stallion, especially if you never have before... They take a knowledge of equine behavior and natural equine instinct that very few people actually have, the best stallion owners and handlers not only have this knowledge, but they also combine it with the right energy and approach. Even then, accidents can still happen... People make mistakes (and so do even the best trained horses)


----------



## dbarabians

I sense that the OP speaks english as a second language and her choice of words and meanings may differ from ours.
OP owning and handling a stallion is a great experience most of the time.
How that stallion is handled from birth is very important.
There are pictures of my stallion on a breeding thread. He had just attempted to roll over in his three sided shed and was cast. I had to step over him and get a rope underneath his neck. Grab him by his back legs and roll him the other way. His trust and kind nature ensured that I was safe.
We then took him out of his pen and he was not 20 ft from 2 mares that were in heat. he is standing there looking like a plow horse not some well bred arabian stallion with a willing harem close by.
Not all stallions are this way. 
If the stallion you are considering has been handled with kindness and taught to respect humans he might be a good buy.
if however he is distrustful or continually test your abilities I for one would reconsider the purchase. good luck. Shalom


----------



## WSArabians

Left Hand Percherons said:


> I think that this is the only reason to hold onto a stallion and not cut him if you do not plan on breeding him in the near future. Perhaps you are growing out some fillies you want to outcross with him once they are ready to be worked into a breeding program. I think the smaller breeds get into genetic Russian Roulette by only using and promoting the fad or popular line at the time. Genetic material is lost all the time and you end up with a terribly inbred breed. The stallion candidates must first be outstanding examples of the breed.


THIS.

It took me forever, in searching for my stallions to find one that did not contain the mightily popular and overused Main Ring names of today. 
My youngest stallion (coming three) is out of two parents that are in their 20's, his oldest grandsire was born in 1967. These are the incredible lines I want to preserve. And thankfully, he is maturing into just the stallion to do that. I am SUPER excited to see what he produced.

I went to look for some Crabbet bred mares to start a pure Crabbet program, and I only found about three active breeder's NORTH AMERICA. I can't even state how unbelievably sad that is.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn

dbarabians said:


> I sense that the OP speaks english as a second language and her choice of words and meanings may differ from ours.
> OP owning and handling a stallion is a great experience most of the time.
> How that stallion is handled from birth is very important.
> There are pictures of my stallion on a breeding thread. He had just attempted to roll over in his three sided shed and was cast. I had to step over him and get a rope underneath his neck. Grab him by his back legs and roll him the other way. His trust and kind nature ensured that I was safe.
> We then took him out of his pen and he was not 20 ft from 2 mares that were in heat. he is standing there looking like a plow horse not some well bred arabian stallion with a willing harem close by.
> Not all stallions are this way.
> If the stallion you are considering has been handled with kindness and taught to respect humans he might be a good buy.
> if however he is distrustful or continually test your abilities I for one would reconsider the purchase. good luck. Shalom


This is sound advice. 

I think I would only consider a 3yr old stallion if I knew for certain he has always been handled well, and in a complimentary way to how I handle my boys... 3 can be a testy age (even for mares and geldings), they are coming into their own and starting to consider they might "need" to be a leader, at roughly the same time the testosterone in a stallion spikes a bit at 3 (or so I'm told) further enhancing that testy behavior. If he isn't already well mannered, it may be difficult to convince him to change at this point.


----------



## Cherrij

TheLastUnicorn said:


> This is sound advice.
> 
> I think I would only consider a 3yr old stallion if I knew for certain he has always been handled well, and in a complimentary way to how I handle my boys... 3 can be a testy age (even for mares and geldings), they are coming into their own and starting to consider they might "need" to be a leader, at roughly the same time the testosterone in a stallion spikes a bit at 3 (or so I'm told) further enhancing that testy behavior. If he isn't already well mannered, it may be difficult to convince him to change at this point.


Thanks for the great input.
At the moment, my friend went to visit the horse. He seems very friendly, nibbles a little bit, a bit insecure - clearly due to the lack of the right eye (well its there but he doesnt see) and overall a nice horse. He has not been handled perfectly but did not show any bad habits. He is still in the same pasture with the 2 mares, one who kicked his eye. he is repeatedly reminded by said mares that he is not the dominant figure there. 
Apparently as soon as grass starts to grow he will be moved to some other pastures, god forbid, he gets hurt again.... 
At the moment I just want to go there and see him and then think what happens further.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn

He may (or may not) change when he is removed from his mares... So be careful sonce you said he has not been handled perfectly. It is not uncommon for stallions to seem placid and gentle when things are " all right in their world" the problems crop up when stresses are added. 

Curb the nibbling... It is a subtle cue of dominance. (Correcting the subtle cues is how you prevent a stallion from thinking bigger ones are needed). Some might disagree with me, but this is honestly what I have found after raising 5 stallions and a few more colts. (Especially watching them interact with each other)


----------



## Cherrij

TheLastUnicorn said:


> He may (or may not) change when he is removed from his mares... So be careful sonce you said he has not been handled perfectly. It is not uncommon for stallions to seem placid and gentle when things are " all right in their world" the problems crop up when stresses are added.
> 
> Curb the nibbling... It is a subtle cue of dominance. (Correcting the subtle cues is how you prevent a stallion from thinking bigger ones are needed). Some might disagree with me, but this is honestly what I have found after raising 5 stallions and a few more colts. (Especially watching them interact with each other)


Of course we will get rid of all the bad habits, and work as much as needed to make him in the best horse. I want to save him, I really do, noone else was interested, just a meat buyer, makes me sad. Even with one eye, he can be a great horse - just takes more time and patience. 

Some of the stallions I worked as a groom for had the habit of nibbling as well, got rid of it in a week. towards me. One of them was very dominant, the trainer always smacked him on his face when he tried to nibble or bite, so was quite head shy. Didn't fix that, brushing his face was a nightmare, but later on he walked next to me like a puppy, not a macho stallion. Stopped bothering me when I was cleaning his box and overall was nice to work with after the first week. Others were easier from the start.
I did get once pushed out of the box door when I was closing it for another stallion, but then again he was grazing on a chain all day when mares in heat are on the fields nearby. Mares he had covered and would still cover. Plus I blame the person who called my name out that time. Caught him allright cuz he respects fences well. Other times he was very gentle and easy going, I could ride him in the small area we had for riding, when he was started just about 2 months before at the age of 6, and the mares could stand nearby and watch and he never tried to take me to them. 

The gelding that would be his company is very gentle, doesnt seem to have a care in the world, lives with a grumpy herd right now, but he never has problems, and never seems to be bothered by them all either. 

and OFC If the stallion comes to my home I will keep them in separate pastures with secure fencing in between whilst they get to know each other and then slowly try to get them together, and with my friend who is helping me with all this fuss we have discussed the possibilities, if they cannot live together and he is not needed or wanted for the breeding programs, We think its better to castrate than make him live on a smaller pasture next to the other horse.. better they can enjoy their lives as friends, not just acquaintances over the fence.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn

I wish you all the best then!


----------



## Cherrij

TheLastUnicorn, Thank you very much.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

I grew up on an Arabian breeding farm with the most docile stud known to man. As a child, my grandpa would put me in his stall and I would brush his legs and belly. In retrospect, it was foolish and I am lucky to have not been hurt. 

As an adult, I worked at a Warmblood breeding facility with a charmer of a Hanoverian stud that never stepped out of line. I would take him out to hand graze daily. He was a saint. 

I have handled and met a good half dozen stallions in my life and I have never had a single bad experience as they were all owned by experienced and educated owners. 

I still never drop my guard. It's not bias. It's common sense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cherrij

The only animal I ever drop my guard with is my golden retriever... both other dogs, even my cats before, all horses, even around chickens and bunnies I never not pay attention... I am taking everything into account that is said here


----------



## smaile

You are saying, that you are thinking about including him in LB breeding program. In that way your stallion WILL meet mares. If people will want to breed their mares to your stallion, they will take them to your stable to do that. And what do you think will happen then.??? And after the mares will be bred and home, do you think that your stallion will just forget that.??? He won`t.!
There is just no reason for keeping him as a stallion, especially knowing the situation with Latvian Driving horses, which is not very... good. And we already have lots of LB stallions. 
I am riding in a breeding stable, we have young stallions who are used for breeding. It is affecting them no matter how they are handled, it does.! Right now I`m riding with a horse who was gelded at 3yo - he is still covering mares and being aggressive towards other horses. Every spring he needs to go in a pasture all alone, because he gets crazy. Why do you have to take such a big risk.? Just because you want a stallion.? To prove how good you are with horses.?


----------

