# Dangerous Head Tossing Habit-How do you fix it?



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

In addition to bit & saddle pain issues, heavy hands is a big possibility. IOW he's been *trained* to do this due to trying to get out of unremitting pressure. Bad teeth or other neck/back/facial nerve problems. If it's become a habit, even if all issues are ruled out/treated, he will likely still do it though, under the same conditions. So I would change what you do - instead of pulling back on 2 reins to slow/stop him, teach him(teach, not attempt to just force) the 'one rein stop' for eg. If it turns out to be bit/teeth pain, ride in a halter/hack.

I wouldn't tend to use a tie down, at least not tight & not something potentially damaging like a cable across his nose. Not just because it's a bandaid(better a bandaid tho than a broken nose for you... speaking from experience), but it tends to just give them more to fight against, get frustrated with. If for your safety you feel the need, use one set loosely enough that it doesn't do anything unless he throws his head high enough to hit you, so it's like a 'safety chain' while you train him better.


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## darkpony (Nov 20, 2013)

Thanks Loosie. I certainly think its a combination of him not being ridden, and him being ridden by my boyfriend. I think a lot of it is out of frustration. He is lazy lazy lazy. I haven't looked at his teeth recently, so I will check them this coming weekend. I don't think its his teeth because he does it in the hack and in a halter too now. Its possible he has come to expect pain from an ill fitting saddle, because as I said he is extremely difficult to fit, and currently has a saddle with a true 8 inch gullet. 

any suggestions on bit change? He is ridden in a tom thumb right now. I was thinking an argentine snaffle or jr cow horse bit would be a little more forgiving.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

True hackamore or rope halter, or a French link snaffle, or ported snaffle be my choice, depends what he's most comfortable in. 

Yes, get teeth seen to & back/saddle carefully fit. If its reacting to pain, he will become shut down or more reactive if he's made to just put up & shut up, and 'lazy' has nothing to do with the head tossing but could be due also to pain. If you think pain/saddle at all likely issue, I'd recommend a vet chiropractor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

It definitely could be teeth. My best friend's mare needs her teeth done in a bad way and she'll toss her head, even in a hack or a halter. I think it's because the sides of the hack/halter rub her cheeks and in turn make her cheeks rub her teeth and it hurts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gssw5 (Jul 30, 2013)

First eliminate the possibility of pain, and then keep in mind that if the head tossing originated from the pain is will take a while for him to realize the pain is gone. His body will still react to the perceived impending pain. If it is just a habit that developed from poor hands, it will fix itself over time when he is ridden correctly.

Does he toss his randomly or when you pick up the reins to cue him? 

Rather then a tie down I prefer a training fork, it is more self correcting when he tosses his head, your hands can be loss on the reins and he will bump himself. Additionally like Loosie said avoid using both reins at the same time, just use one, giving him less leverage, and will help keep his head away from yours.

Lastly use more leg to drive him forward into the bit, when he goes to toss his head, use your seat and legs to drive him forward and keep him engaged. I would also go back and ride him like a young colt, doing lots of one rein stops, yielding the hind end, and working on exercises to get him soft and supple. 

As for bits I would recommend a plain old snaffle to start back with.


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## darkpony (Nov 20, 2013)

I dont know. I personally think lazy has a lot to do with it. He's been sitting for a long while, and isnt to impressed with the fact that someone thinks they are going to make him work. It is not a continuous rhythmic head toss, it is a violent tempertantrum. The saddle he has now shows good sweat patterns. It fits him well, but it took several saddles to find the one that works. I bet you hit the nail on the head with the "heavy hands is a big possibility"


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## darkpony (Nov 20, 2013)

gssw5 said:


> First eliminate the possibility of pain, and then keep in mind that if the head tossing originated from the pain is will take a while for him to realize the pain is gone. His body will still react to the perceived impending pain. If it is just a habit that developed from poor hands, it will fix itself over time when he is ridden correctly.
> 
> Does he toss his randomly or when you pick up the reins to cue him?
> 
> ...


I think you are right. Back to the basics. the only problem is that it is still my boyfriends horse, I can spend a million hours correcting it, but if the issue is his heavy hands it wont do much good when he goes to ride him.

I wouldnt call it random, but not when I take the reins either. The last time he started at the end of the driveway-walking away from his pals.


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## darkpony (Nov 20, 2013)

I should add-My boyfriend rode him last fall fully tacked around the pasture- WTC with no head tossing at all.


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## gssw5 (Jul 30, 2013)

Having a tantrum walking away from his pals is just one more symptom of a cause to add to the head tossing. I would not call that lazy I would call that barn sour/herd bound. My horse is lazy, in that he is not interested in doing anything to fast, but he walks away from the barn and his buddies no problem. 

I would have your boyfriend work on his heavy hands, and his balance, while you work on the horse. If he not willing to learn to become a better rider for the horses benefit, then perhaps selling the horse is the correct thing to do and find him a horse that is less sensitive, and will tolerate his style of riding.


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## darkpony (Nov 20, 2013)

Trust me. He is as lazy as they come. I know that for sure! Obviously there are a lot of issues at play here. I guess I pretty much know the cause of it. I am just looking for a good solution.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

darkpony said:


> I dont know. I personally think lazy has a lot to do with it. He's been sitting for a long while, and isnt to impressed with the fact that someone thinks they are going to make him work.


Regardless of whether they've been unworked for some time, horses are (usually?) not impressed with the idea of having to 'work'. That's not lazy... or rather, horses are generally lazy creatures IMO, but they can be trained otherwise. A good trainer is one who teaches a horse that they must do as requested, regardless of want. But also 'works' & trains a horse in such a way that encourages them to be happy & confident to do as requested.

Your further comments cause me to get a different idea about the situation than the OP. So your bf, despite the heavy hands, doesn't have this problem with the horse? You don't ride or otherwise spend much time training the horse, but you have occasionally pulled him out of the paddock to take him away from his mates to ride? And he's strongly objected to this by head tossing, regardless of any pressure on the bit? Doesn't sound like a 'head tossing' problem, but that he just hasn't learned/been given good reason that he 'should' do as you ask & not 'give his opinion' on it. 

Then it's a matter of your leadership and training with him, that a) you don't let him 'win' anything from this 'wrong' behaviour and b) it is safe, easy & not Bad for him - preferably pleasant - to do as you ask. c) can be that it's also unpleasant - punishment - when he tries that behaviour to see if it works, but this is far less important/effective & not strictly necessary than a & b.

While if he's had history that that behaviour(or leaning on heavy hands, whatever) has worked for him in the past, especially if other riders continue to allow it to work in the future, it will indeed be harder to teach him that it will not work or be tolerated with you - he'll try it, probably 'try' harder when he finds it isn't working, before he gives it up - it is by no means pointless for you to teach him you expect differently. Like any other 'manners'. I work with many horses who's owners allow them to push them around, walk all over them, nibble at, 'mug for' treats & scratchies... etc, but they soon learn this behaviour will not work or be tolerated with me.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

darkpony said:


> I guess I pretty much know the cause of it. I am just looking for a good solution.


So what is the cause in your eyes?


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## darkpony (Nov 20, 2013)

I know it's hard to give good advice over the Internet because you don't know the horse OR the rider. I guess we have differing opinions on the lazy matter. I have handled a lot of horses in the last 20 years. This horse is LAZY under saddle, and In the pasture. Some horses just are. He needs to be ridden more. He has been sitting way to long and has gotten the idea that it's more enjoyable to stand in the pasture and eat. That combined with being buddy sour(from not being expected to leave them in the last 2 or3 years) is the cause. I am sure with more rides he would come to realize this behavior isn't acceptable but I was looking for specific exercises that have worked for others. Things I can do WHEN he acts up. Trust me, I understand the concept of not letting him win and of convincing him that being handled/ridden is positive. I have started probably close to 300 horses in my life and never come across a horse with less work ethic and ambition. I personally don't love this horse which is why he's been on the back burner. My boyfriend says he doesn't have a problem with his horse and says " he's fine" when I mention bringing him to my barn so I can work with him daily.. But I know the reason he's lost interest is that it's such a chore to ride this horse. It's real work. Though my boyfriend used to love loading them up and hitting trails- he doesn't want to fight with him the entire ride. He will never admit to that. I would rather see him sold to be honest but my boyfriend does not want to sell


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

At least get a vet out asap to check teeth, and also to check for sore back.... and proper saddle fit.

I would ask that your boyfriend perhaps try riding with a bitless bridle, see how that goes.

Bits and tiedowns do not ever help with training-related issues (once pain is ruled out), head tossing is almost always caused by pain (bit, teeth) or heavy hands, or a sore back.

There really is no such thing as a "lazy" horse. Only a barn sour horse, or a horse that still needs training, or an inexperienced rider or rider unfamiliar with the horse/cues. if he is that sluggish I would get a vet out to do a work up on the horse (blood work, etc.)


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

darkpony said:


> I know it's hard to give good advice over the Internet because you don't know the horse OR the rider.


Yep, glad you appreciate that:wink: But I reckon, whether you initially agree or not, it's always good to really examine & consider what others see in the situation.



> This horse is LAZY under saddle, and In the pasture. Some horses just are.


Not doubting that. Just that it's not really relevant to throwing head tossing tantrums. The majority of horses are IMO, but they can learn that it's enjoyable and not 'work' to do what people ask of them. Perhaps it's the perception of 'lazy' and 'work' that's the crux.



> but I was looking for specific exercises that have worked for others. Things I can do WHEN he acts up. Trust me, I understand the concept of not letting him win and of convincing him that being handled/ridden is positive.


And I tried to give specific advice. But I think your focus on what you can do WHEN he 'plays up' is not the most important one, but it will be more productive to focus on *preparing* him to be willing to go out with you - make it more than a concept that being handled/ridden is positive for him.



> I have started probably close to 300 horses in my life and never come across a horse with less work ethic and ambition.


I'm not sure what you mean by 'work ethic' - that sounds very anthropomorphic to me, but surprised if you've worked with hundreds of horses you've never met lazy &/or assertively resistant ones before. But perhaps it's due to your experience *starting* horses, rather than working with ones that have already gained bad experiences/attitudes about 'work'. And giving an anthropomorphic type eg, perhaps you can stop yourself thinking of what you do with a horse as 'work' and try to work out how you can make it more 'play' for the horse.



> I personally don't love this horse which is why he's been on the back burner. My boyfriend says he doesn't have a problem with his horse and says " he's fine"


Not that it's a necessity to love a horse you work with, but that you've said this a few times suggests that attitude is strong, and is perhaps part of your problem with him, that it sounds like your bf doesn't have. Possible that bf actually has just lost interest & he's being honest, rather than just not admitting??

And agree with Remali, esp that from what you've told, physical pain/discomfort also sounds like a big factor - of course the horse won't ever develop a good 'work ethic' if it hurts him to 'work'.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I think you're on the right track with figuring out/fixing why but as far as stopping the behavior.

My Arab does the "head flip" (just an Arab thing, not sure if you're familiar) as a green horse he did it under saddle a few times and he instantly got a swat on the shoulder with the crop and a sharp "eh!". Hasn't done it in years.

In that situation I knew the reason was simply it was a habit he did when not under saddle and he didn't know yet. Not wanting a broken nose I got right on top of it.

While I would figure out the why I would also correct the behavior itself.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

darkpony said:


> Thanks Loosie. I certainly think its a combination of him not being ridden, and him being ridden by my boyfriend. I think a lot of it is out of frustration. He is lazy lazy lazy. I haven't looked at his teeth recently, so I will check them this coming weekend. I don't think its his teeth because he does it in the hack and in a halter too now. Its possible he has come to expect pain from an ill fitting saddle, because as I said he is extremely difficult to fit, and currently has a saddle with a true 8 inch gullet.
> 
> any suggestions on bit change? He is ridden in a tom thumb right now. I was thinking an argentine snaffle or jr cow horse bit would be a little more forgiving.


Get rid of that TT!
A horse that has not been ridden much, lacks basics, needs to first of all , have his teeth done, and then introduced correctly to a bit. A PLAIN SNAffle.
Heavy hands, as mentioned, that never give any bit relief, have a horse seeking bit relief in only two ways left-either getting behind the vertical, or tossing his head
Forget that tiedown.
I don't accept 'lazy', for a reason that a horse becomes resistant in the face, but it is rather the sign of ahorse that has been ridden with way too much hands and not enough legs, and never given bit relief
Of course, horses would rather hang out with buddies and eat, but they will work willingly, if you are a clear, firm but just leader,
Horses become dull when they have no reason to comply to light aids, and then learn to tolerate pain and tune that rider out.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^I forgot about what you call 'TTs' over there. It's a single jointed bit with a shank isn't it? Yeah, agree that's pretty harsh for a green or badly ridden horse. Over here they typically call a snaffle with bars instead of/as well as rings at the cheeks a 'TT'.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

you can show your bf how heavy hand feel, have him put a rope in his teeth , show soft rein
and then show heavy rein. Help him figure out his balance and seat, tell him if he needs to balance or hold something show him the saddle horn.
I would have suggested checking his ears , but you stated he does not always toss his head.
but, if the headstall has a browband, that could be to small and pinch also.


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## darkpony (Nov 20, 2013)

Remali said:


> At least get a vet out asap to check teeth, and also to check for sore back.... and proper saddle fit.
> 
> I would ask that your boyfriend perhaps try riding with a bitless bridle, see how that goes.
> 
> ...


 
Ok. I guess if people would rather call it 'sluggish', he has been 'sluggish' since the day we got him(over 7 years ago)-We knew the people who originally owned and bred him. They said he was 'sluggish' when we bought him. In fact that was their reason for selling! It is not an issue of health. All of their horses are perfectly healthy. Thanks for your input.


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## darkpony (Nov 20, 2013)

loosie said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by 'work ethic' - that sounds very anthropomorphic to me, but surprised if you've worked with hundreds of horses you've never met lazy &/or assertively resistant ones before. But perhaps it's due to your experience *starting* horses, rather than working with ones that have already gained bad experiences/attitudes about 'work'. And giving an anthropomorphic type eg, perhaps you can stop yourself thinking of what you do with a horse as 'work' and try to work out how you can make it more 'play' for the horse.


 
I believe I said I have never seen one with LESS work ethic and ambition. not that I have "never met a lazy and or resistant horse before this". You are right in that I prefer starting with a completely clean slate,(what trainer doesnt?) but I have dealt with my fair share of problem horses too. This horse is just particularly hard for me. Also- what I mean work ethic is a horse that is "willing to please" so to speak. One that begs to come out and hop on the trailer, and glares at you when you choose another. yes, I know this can have something to do with their level of training, but I own a few that were that way as foals. As for the work/play idea.. I understand where you are coming from in making it enjoyable for the horse-but I want the horse to WORK for me. They each have a job to do, so I will continue to refer to it as work. not play. Again, Thanks for your reply.


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## darkpony (Nov 20, 2013)

stevenson said:


> you can show your bf how heavy hand feel, have him put a rope in his teeth , show soft rein
> and then show heavy rein. Help him figure out his balance and seat, tell him if he needs to balance or hold something show him the saddle horn.
> I would have suggested checking his ears , but you stated he does not always toss his head.
> but, if the headstall has a browband, that could be to small and pinch also.


^^ I never thought to check his brow band! Thank You for that suggestion! YES I 100% agree with you on the heavy hands nonsense. Its not so much an issue of balance for him, but of frustration. I have caught him jerking on his mouth before, which I obviously was not thrilled to see. << so that right there is enough to make any horse start tossing their head.  I will attempt to make it clear to him. Wish me luck.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Want to add, don't know what all this "lazy" "sluggish" whatever have to do with this. IMO it would make him LESS likely to do that..more work. It's usually an issue of the opposite.

You have a green horse with little training on foundation and a complicated bit and a heavy handed rider and are wondering why he tosses his head..

Put him in a roundpen (or safe area) with a halter and just work on the basics.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

darkpony said:


> I believe I said I have never seen one with LESS work ethic and ambition. not that I have "never met a lazy and or resistant horse before this". You are right in that I prefer starting with a completely clean slate,(what trainer doesnt?) but I have dealt with my fair share of problem horses too.


Yeah, pardon getting that bit wrong. But surprises me much more, if you're a 'trainer', if you've also dealt with many 'problem horses' and if you have worked with 100's of horses, that you're stumped by this.



> what I mean work ethic is a horse that is "willing to please" so to speak. One that begs to come out and hop on the trailer, and glares at you when you choose another. yes, I know this can have something to do with their level of training, ... As for the work/play idea.. I understand where you are coming from in making it enjoyable for the horse-but I want the horse to WORK for me.


Especially when you want THEM to think of it as 'work', it is ALL about training, and as for work vs play, it is a mindset thing, the way you approach/teach stuff, not necessarily that they do anything differently... except for more willingly, which sounds like what you're wanting.


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## darkpony (Nov 20, 2013)

Yogi- the horse is not green. He had a very good start with a snaffle as a 2 year old and progressed to a TT as a transition between a snaffle and a curb. He has just been sitting a few years. I am going to send him out to an Amish man in our area and wipe my hands of it.


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## darkpony (Nov 20, 2013)

Loose-feel free to continue to comment on this but from here on out I will be skipping over your replies as they are no longer constructive. I do not come to this forum to have people call my abilities as a 'TRAINER' in to question. You do not know me, and you only have a brief picture of this horse. I'm not exactly sure what makes you think you are any more skilled than I am as none of your advice was all that helpful. Thanks!- moving on.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

darkpony said:


> Yogi- the horse is not green. He had a very good start with a snaffle as a 2 year old and progressed to a TT as a transition between a snaffle and a curb. He has just been sitting a few years. I am going to send him out to an Amish man in our area and wipe my hands of it.


A TOm Thumb is a curb, and not a good one!

Like many things in a tack catalogs , some people call any curb with a jointed mouth a TT, Or that other terrible oxymoron-a shanked snaffle . A true TT, has a jointed mouth with straight up and down shanks, thus is severe, and gives hardly any signal
I ride a green horse for at east a year or more in a snaffle, then I do go to a jointed mouth curb, but one that is loose jawed and short shanked, as in that reinsman colt transition bit
The one I use, is the second one down in this link

Reinsman Short Shank Curb Bits @ Kyhorse.com

I grew up in Amish country, and would not send them a horse I liked (yes, this is a generality, as there are always exceptions
I hope the horse finds hands that he can learn to trust


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## darkpony (Nov 20, 2013)

Thanks Smilie. I have one similar to that. The tom thumb that is on his bridle currently has a curved shank not straight, but I just purchased a 3 piece argentine snaffle for a clients horse-and may give that a try. I know The Amish typically have a bad name with handling horses, but this man is a truely kind horseman. Yes he does expect his horses to work, and at the end of the day the horse "works" some more when his kids climb all over them. I think this is just what he needs. Typically the horses I have gotten in that are "Amish broke" are very obedient but not used to being touched. River will have no issue there. If they also break him to drive and put him in a buggy or use him to pull wagons, that just makes him even more well rounded. He is a big sturdy horse, being used by them will not hurt him a bit.


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## darkpony (Nov 20, 2013)

oh and I think you misunderstood. I meant as a transition from a snaffle to a curb. not that the TT is between a snaffle and curb. Does that make sense? sorry for the confusion.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

darkpony said:


> Loose-feel free to continue to comment on this but from here on out I will be skipping over your replies as they are no longer constructive. I do not come to this forum to have people call my abilities as a 'TRAINER' in to question. You do not know me, and you only have a brief picture of this horse. I'm not exactly sure what makes you think you are any more skilled than I am as none of your advice was all that helpful. Thanks!- moving on.


Beg your precious pardon! I'll try to remember in future that you don't really want help, unless its what you want to hear!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

darkpony said:


> Loose-feel free to continue to comment on this but from here on out I will be skipping over your replies as they are no longer constructive. I do not come to this forum to have people call my abilities as a 'TRAINER' in to question. *You do not know me*, and you only have a brief picture of this horse. I'm not exactly sure what makes you think you are any more skilled than I am as none of your advice was all that helpful. Thanks!- moving on.


I am sorry to read that you have stopped learning as a horseman. I have owned/trained horses for 30 years (this June,) and I stand correction here from my betters and from my equals. I continue to learn even from those here who have argued with me, on occasion bc I want what is best for my horses, not to stroke my ego. I share my own experiences bc I don't like to hear about somebody getting hurt simply bc that person didn't know what to do.
Your horse is obviously green. Green isn't an age, it's a description that means your horse needs work and is not compliant.
"You do not know me" is a common phrase that I have heard among many 20-somethings brought up to be "Special Snowflakes". I thought that I knew best in my fields of expertise in my 20's, too, but, ironically, I thought that I knew NOTHING when I started training horses. I believe that is what made my old herd so well trained bc I kept reading and kept working on all of them.
I continue to learn and I chew over advice when I discover that I am in the wrong.
I only post bc many people prefer to read these threads and not comment, and I hope that this post helps somebody else. I am sure that you would "unfrend" me, too, here...if you could do that.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

darkpony said:


> Yogi- the horse is not green. He had a very good start with a snaffle as a 2 year old and progressed to a TT as a transition between a snaffle and a curb. He has just been sitting a few years. I am going to send him out to an Amish man in our area and wipe my hands of it.


OK sorry messed that up somehow. I see he was ridden 2-8 or so and then has been sitting?

Sounds like finishing wise he is still green even if he has more miles than I thought. My Arab I would consider green even though he was started 8 years ago (though things like his head tossing were nipped in the bud). Regardless as he's been sitting I would be treating him like a green horse anyways until he gets back in the swing of things. See if that helps.


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## cheyennemymare (Oct 8, 2014)

**My post is coming from a stand-point that it's NOT pain!**

I have a tough mare. She's tough skinned, has a tough mouth, her hooves are like nails, and you can not hurt her. When I would pull back, she would throw her head and dart forward. This is dangerous, especially if you are trying to keep her from a drop off or a hill. 

I used a tie down so for down she couldn't move her head for day one. (I only did this because her head tossing became rearing.) That fixed it for that day. The next day I ground drove her. I used lunge lines and when she tossed her head,I went to her front end and made her put it down and back up. That was day 2.

Day 3 was a bit different. I saddled and bridled her. I swung on bareback, and jogged for 2 arena laps. Then I gently eased my reins back and Harley went up, up, and shot forward. I swung off, hollered, and backed her up for 2 solid minutes. She pretty much didn't try all that again for a few days. 

The fourth day I rode her like everything was perfect. She tried to act ugly, and I shut it down in any way possible quickly. She carried on like an angel .

This is how I 'cured' my mare's problem, but it may not work for yours.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

cheyennemymare said:


> **My post is coming from a stand-point that it's NOT pain!**
> 
> I have a tough mare. She's tough skinned, has a tough mouth, her hooves are like nails, and you can not hurt her. When I would pull back, she would throw her head and dart forward. This is dangerous, especially if you are trying to keep her from a drop off or a hill.
> 
> ...



iT might just appear like you can\'t hurt a horse, on a horse that has learned to just ignore pain, and whose pain toerance, not education, has gone up, through hauling on a mouth, for instance. Sounds like your horse never learned to yield to pressure, thus moved into it instead, which is a natural state for a horse that was never trained correctly
You don't back a horse by hauling on the reins!!!!!!
You simply use a bit barrier, then use legs, not hands to back a horse
A tie down teaches nothing, and to trail ride with a tie down is plain dangerous. I know of horses that have drown, ridden with tie downs
More bit is never the answer, esp on a horse that is green, having been ridden with harsh hands and a curb that the horse was not ready for, as in the case of the Op's horse


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

cheyennemymare said:


> and you can not hurt her. When I would pull back, she would throw her head and dart forward.


Entirely understandable that you felt that way. Horses are such stoic animals & routinely put up with far more than is good for them. 'Hard mouthed' is one eg of this, as the tissue of the gums & tongue is physically unable to callous, so therefore unable to get 'hard' and physically desensitised to pain. That to me sounds like it actually did indeed hurt, so she *reacted against* the pressure, which is natural horse behaviour, if they haven't been *taught* how to *yield* to it. 



> I swung on bareback, and jogged for 2 arena laps. Then I gently eased my reins back and Harley went up, up, and shot forward. I swung off, hollered, and backed her up for 2 solid minutes.


If a horse hasn't been taught from the ground effectively how to yield to bit/rein(& otherwise) pressure, then I honestly reckon it's best to stay off their back until they learn. Don't forget horses learn from *instant* associations, so if you swung off & hollered while she was doing this, THAT is the feedback that she got for the behaviour, not the backing up after the event. :wink:


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I read through all of this and without seeing the horse I will offer the following take on the situation gleaned from your own words. 

If you don't like the horse is front of you and you cannot like the horse is front of you I can tell you that you will never train the horse in front of you. 

The strength of your dislike for this horse is interfering with your training him. 

The best trainers train the horse in front of them. They do not malign the horse. They simply train him and never say a negative thing.
A trainer's attitude adjustment can create a tremendous forward adjustment in the the horse's progress. 

Carry on and good luck!


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## blueriver (Oct 10, 2009)

I've only got a few post ... the new guy here. I read all the posts responding to your issue .... Back to the basics. 

There is a reason the head tossing has developed be it the heavy hand ... I would think that in combination of the bit plays a role here.

Get out the box of bits and keep changing them out I believe you'll find one the horse likes ... then may I suggest forget the saddle and use the round pen with driving lines ... have someone line drive the horse while you watch reactions. 

You may find something simple and your time studying the needs of the horse will be rewarding.

I suggest as for the BF ... snap the reins to his belts loops and ask him to walk. Show him that tugging right and left isn't proper ... guide him around the pen like a horse should be guided ... he'll get the idea!!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Elana said:


> I read through all of this and without seeing the horse I will offer the following take on the situation gleaned from your own words.
> 
> If you don't like the horse is front of you and you cannot like the horse is front of you I can tell you that you will never train the horse in front of you.
> 
> ...


Very different advice but very insightful and accurate!


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

darkpony said:


> I dont know. I personally think lazy has a lot to do with it. He's been sitting for a long while, and isnt to impressed with the fact that someone thinks they are going to make him work. It is not a continuous rhythmic head toss, it is a violent temper tantrum. The saddle he has now shows good sweat patterns. It fits him well, but it took several saddles to find the one that works. I bet you hit the nail on the head with the "heavy hands is a big possibility"


I would seriously be considering his teeth - how long ago were his teeth last done? Sharp teeth can cause such pain that some horses can become quite violent in their reaction. 

A Standing Martingale (Tie Down) is a good idea to use as it protects you, and sometimes the sock on the nose it gives reminds the horse not to do it again. Personally I don't like running martingales as they cause to much damage to the horses sensitive mouth - and in a situation like this you don't want that happening. 

He may also do it if he is tired - you say he has been sitting in the paddock for some time - so bear in mind that when you work him - his muscles will feel the effects of the different work and could actually be sore.


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