# Slaughter.....Dog Food.....Would You?



## BluMagic

Has or would anyone ever give up their animal for dog food? Some people here don't seem to mind. I think its wrong! Terribly wrong. No matter what. I want to know what you guys think. I know there are a lot of other slaughter post but they all have TONS of posts. I hope this is okay. Just let me know if you would or have. I want to see your point of view.....


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## Rachluvshorses4eva

No! I would never sell any of my animals to a slaughter house!


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## love-a-hero

Yep same. Although if they were dangerous, I would either send it to a rodeo circut or get it put down.
I havnt had to do that thou


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## Vidaloco

I think I would have it put down before I would put it through a slaughterhouse. I would do my best to sell it or give it away first.


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## mell

my mum has once. A pony we had. I cant remember what was wrong with her, i was to young. I guess she thought is was better to sell her to slaughter, then spend money to put her down, being a single mum with two kids. She was the only horse we had at that stage. Wait no, we had 3 others on free agistment at her friends stable.
But i would never do it.


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## Harlee rides horses

I would never sell *my* horse to slaughter, but if someone were in a difficult predicament, can't afford it, and most definitely can't sell the horse, ALPO!


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## PoptartShop

I'd never send my horse to slaughter either. 
I'd have it put down.


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## .Delete.

Call me horrible. But i might have to send my horse to slaughter.


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## love-a-hero

True  Why?


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## .Delete.

There is something wrong with him. My dad says that if its a diease that cannot be fixed, we will send to slaughter. He doesn't want to feed what he calls a "dead horse"


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## PoptartShop

Awwww.  I'm so sorry to hear that.


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## LuLu

.Delete. said:


> There is something wrong with him. My dad says that if its a diease that cannot be fixed, we will send to slaughter. He doesn't want to feed what he calls a "dead horse"


Can't you have him humanely euthanized?


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## farmpony84

There aren't any slaughter houses left in the US... How does it work now?


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## Lc Performance Horses

I would not sell direct to a killing plant, but once they are put down by the vet, I will send them to one to be incinerated, always ensure you worm them if you know the day is coming cos they CANNOT use them even for animal food as the meat is poisonous. So no wont have them slaughtered. I have mine done by injection.


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## JustDressageIt

LuLu said:


> .Delete. said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is something wrong with him. My dad says that if its a diease that cannot be fixed, we will send to slaughter. He doesn't want to feed what he calls a "dead horse"
> 
> 
> 
> Can't you have him humanely euthanized?
Click to expand...

I agree with Lulu. Also, what sort of disease? Will it make the horse unsuitable for human (or otherwise) consumption? 
God knows how many horses are shipped each day that aren't fit to be food... many meds that we give horses say on the label "do not administer if horse is to be used for human consumption," but they are anyways. Yes, I realize there is a period of time where the meds should be absorbed through the system, but still..


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## JustDressageIt

And to answer the Original Poster, Blu - no I wouldn't. There is a reason I have money saved up in case of emergencies for my dog, cat and horse. (Heaven forbid) If they all became deathly ill right now I could affoard to put them all down humanely.


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## appylover31803

I would never. I'd sell the clothes off my back to pay for something that my horse or dog or any other animal needed. And most vets will take a payment plan if you cannot afford it all at once. Also there's pet insurance that will help you out greatly will costs of the unexpected.


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## farmpony84

When I lived in Germany I took lesson there... there was a horse we rode that broke his hock... They had to put him down... I remember the very next day there was a sale on horse meat at the butcher shop (they eat horse meat there...) it was really kind of devestaing for me as a young american kid... we live so much differently you know?


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## MaryMooCow22

Never. I don't think slaughter is ever an answer. I had to write a 7 page paper on the subject...the facts, photos, and videos were sickening. I would sell everything I own to afford Vet procedures or sell him if I had to, but never slaughter.


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## .Delete.

I cannot afford it. Call me a horrible owner, but i can't. We have fallen on hard times and we can not afford it.


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## upnover

That's a tough question. There is a significant difference between "send a horse to slaughter" and "sell and not keep in touch"! I sell a lot of horses that i don't keep in touch with. But I personally couldn't see myself sending a horse to slaughter. I do however think it's a necessary evil in the horse industry that should remain an option.


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## .Delete.

Me and my dad are trying to find a place where we can give him too. But so far no one wants a sickly pony


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## PoptartShop

Aww.  I'm so sorry Delete.


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## .Delete.

He is up for free if anyone wants him


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## MaryMooCow22

I'm sorry it's working out that way, Delete.  If I hear of or see anyone interested, I'll pass them on to you. We'll do all we can to help! 




farmpony84 said:


> There aren't any slaughter houses left in the US... How does it work now?


Farmpony--since there aren't slaughterhouses in the US, the horses are being shipped out of the country, mainly to Mexico. The sad part is, slaughter in Mexico is not regulated. That means that the workers in slaughterhouses don't have to be kind to the horses before or during slaughter. They don't have to use a quick bullet to the head, either, if you catch my drift.  I've read the horror stories in my research of what goes on in those Mexican slaughterhouses....it's really sad.


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## PoptartShop

^Agreed.  They usually ship them to another country, such as Mexico.


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## ILuv2ride

I would never in a million years sell anything to that slaughter house they are not even promited in the US


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## PaintHorseMares

Our mares will probably outlive me, but if they don't, they'll have a nice, grassy spot on our property for all the good years they've given us.


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## alstaxidermy

I could never do it myself, but understand that some other people do for their own reasons. I personally would rather be there to wish thema peaceful goodbye and then have them cremated - but I guess that's also the funeral director in me coming out - it's much easier to scatter ashes then to guess if I am feeding them to my dogs, ya know?


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## JustDressageIt

.Delete. said:


> Me and my dad are trying to find a place where we can give him too. But so far no one wants a sickly pony


Honestly, Delete, you can avoid this horse being sent to slaughter by doing just this.


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## missy06

Delete, is whatever your pony has contagious to other horses?

Is there any medication that could improve/reverse his condition? Sorry if you already answered this one.


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## kim_angel

What "disease" does he have?


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## my2geldings

Back where I am from, horse steak is more accessible than beef. It is quite disgusting because you could go to any grocery store and find horse meat up with the rest of the meat. It's disgusting.

It is horse country here. I don't know of anyone here who would consider their horse out for meat to be ok.


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## lacyloo

Please dont give me a hard time on this but, ( lets say ) If my horse ever broke her leg , And the vet was not in the area I would have her put down by a gun...I would never ever sell a horse to slaughter ,no matter what his problems are...

Delete, I feel really sorry for you and your horse and hopes he can go to someone that can give him the care he needs or humanley (sp) euthanized....


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## Supermane

I would absolutely never sell my horses to slaughter. I think Humane euthanasia is the only way to deal with unwanted/suffering horses.

Oh and just wanted to give a thumbs up to Suffolk Racetrack for their zero tolerance policy 
Small changes do make a difference.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/na...s-begins-zero-tolerance-slaughter-policy.aspx


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## my2geldings

Supermane said:


> I would absolutely never sell my horses to slaughter. I think Humane euthanasia is the only way to deal with unwanted/suffering horses.
> 
> Oh and just wanted to give a thumbs up to Suffolk Racetrack for their zero tolerance policy
> Small changes do make a difference.
> 
> http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/na...s-begins-zero-tolerance-slaughter-policy.aspx


Good for him. That's great news. Hopefully with time more people will be doing this.


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## Juno21

I talk to the lady I bought Juno from like once a month and always sending her pictures!!!!!! Also I keep in touch with the person I gave my horse Sydney to, I make sure she sends me pictures every so offen.


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## TxHorseMom

I don't see what is so terrible about the body going for food. Once the horse is dead, what difference does it make what happens to it? Let me clairify and say that as it stands none of my personal horses have gone to slaughter. But if a horse is dangerous and the slaughter is humane (Canada is not so bad, a quick bullet to the head) I don't have a problem with it. Many say that the euthenasia that the vets do is slow, and not always an easy death. Also, once the chemicals are used, a horse can not be buried, or used for meat. The only means of disposal is cremation. Which is not always easily done.

I live in the US and have seen firsthand what happens when slaughter is outlawed. There are worse things than death.


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## lacyloo

I grre with you, but...

In alot of horse slaughter plants, horses are not , euthanized properly with a gun, or bolt gun..

If they were maby people would not freak out on the slaughter issues.


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## .Delete.

Its an internal parasite. And we don't have to get rid of him, we fixed it.


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## Gingerrrrr

TxHorseMom said:


> (Canada is not so bad, a quick bullet to the head)


how is that not bad?


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## FoxyRoxy1507

if u ever have to think u need to send ur horse to the slaughterhouse you should contact ur local animal adoption facility, almost all of them will accept a horse if you cannot afford it or they can find a place for it to go, they would rather it be taken care of and get adopted or at least humanely euthanized then to send it to the slaughterhouse. 

Has anyone ever watched animal planet, Houston SPCA and Miami SPCA.


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## TxHorseMom

Gingerrrrr said:


> TxHorseMom said:
> 
> 
> 
> (Canada is not so bad, a quick bullet to the head)
> 
> 
> 
> how is that not bad?
Click to expand...

It is not so bad because it is very quick and painless. Instant death. (as long as the shooter is accurate and they are, doing it all the time) Having the vet "put down" a horse can take quite a while for it to take effect, and it is NOT painless. Basically they are overdosing a horse with a potent poision. It can take up to an hour in some cases. I've also heard of vets not bringing enough and they had to go back and get more to finish the job.

If it was ME being put down, I would want something quick and painless, not slow. That is why it is not so bad in Canada.


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## TxHorseMom

FoxyRoxy1507 said:


> if u ever have to think u need to send ur horse to the slaughterhouse you should contact ur local animal adoption facility, almost all of them will accept a horse if you cannot afford it or they can find a place for it to go, they would rather it be taken care of and get adopted or at least humanely euthanized then to send it to the slaughterhouse.
> 
> Has anyone ever watched animal planet, Houston SPCA and Miami SPCA.


The problem is that most of the adoption facilities are FULL! They have no room. I used to do some rescuing myself. (I don't LIKE to see them go to slaughter, but IMO it's a necessary evil) But with the market the way it is, (sucks!) I can't do that anymore. The cost of rehabbing a horse is getting more and more costly. And when there are so many horses everywhere, it is almost impossible to find them new homes. I have a BLM mustang and a PMU baby of a rescued mare that I rescued 4 years ago (filly is now 3) that I can't rehome for $300!! (and trust me, I have spent WAY more than that on them for vet bills, feed, farrier, etc) I can't take in any more until they are gone.

As for the SPCA you can't just call them and say "I have a horse I don't want anymore, will you take them?" They save that for the horses who are in really bad shape.

And speaking of the shows...It's those idiots (partially) who cant or won't feed their horses that fills up the SPCA's.


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## americancowgurl31391

Wow i am TOTALLY AGAINST sending a horse to slaughter. Mostly all of you posting on this topic have never had a horse sent to slaughter. I personally have had my horse sent to slaughter. 

I had a 5-year-old AQH gelding named Kiane. My first and most gentle horse ever. He watched over me and kept me safe from anything. I only owned him for about 6 months and i was only 11 at the time. This is when my world came crashing down. I came to live with my mom back in California. I left my horse with my dad in Utah while we finalized boarding arrangements and transportation down here. My dad called me one day and asked me if it was ok if he took my horse for a ride in the mountains with his friends. I said "awesome, Kiane will love that". Little did I know, Kiane would get injured that day. My horse stepped on what people call a shell rock(extremely sharp rock) which lodged into his hoof. My dad called me and told me, "Sweetie im sorry but Kiane got hurt on the ride, but im at the vets with him and he'll be out soon and back to normal". So for a week straight my dad called me everyday and told me the great progress that he was making. Well about 5 days after he got injured, my dad called me and said, "Im sorry Jaide but Kiane had to be euthanized today...he kept busting the screws in his hoof and he cannot be healed." My life will never be the same. I sat up for like a week straight crying myself to sleep each night. I asked my dad which vet my horse went to cause i wanted proof and he said oh this one and the like a week later he said oh no this other one.
Come to find out, my horse never went to the vet. After he got injured, my dad or one of the guys shot Kiane in the head. When i found out this information, I was living with my dad again. I confronted him about it but he would never tell me the truth. Thinking it was funny, my dad, brother and grandpa put cans of dog food in the food cupboards and labeled them Kiane. They were all saying "Theres Kiane in those cans!" I cannot imagine what Kiane went through. Heartless people!!
I live with my mom now and have for the last 3.5 years i havent talked to dad. I have a wonderful AQH gelding named Dude now. He came from the same place that Kiane was from in Utah. They were best buddies, same age and kept in the same pasture. I to this day, feel guilty forever letting them take my horse out. I could have possibly prevented this. I will never forgive myself or the guys who did this. 5-years-old and gone forever!! Im so sorry Kiane. I will never forget you. I have pics in my room and even your shoe...I love you!!

THANKS for reading this, but this is why im so against slaughter. Dead or alive, horses shouldnt be put through this.


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## americancowgurl31391

P.S.: Delete...I am so happy for you and your horse. That broke my heart when i read that he had a disease. Im so glad hes healthy now!!Yay!!!!


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## TxHorseMom

American Cowgurl,
I am sorry you lost your beloved horse. But, I honestly don't understand what that has to do with horse slaughter. If you read my previous posts (as I did yours) you will know that shooting a horse is a very quick and painless death. (I hope that comforts you a little) What your family did with the dog food cans was cruel and heartless. What your father did was wrong. But not all horses are your Kaine. There are horses out there who are sick, and or downright dangerous. There are also horses out there starving to death is pastures right now, because the market is so crappy. The owners either can't or won't feed their horses. And there is no where to "unload" them. Starving to death is a very SLOW and PAINFUL death. Would you have wanted that for your horse? I know I wouldn't want that for ANY horse (or animal for that matter) Do I think this is right? NO! But these are the tough realities. Unfortunately, I think most people think, "Oh no! We shouldn't kill them!" But don't think about what we are supposed to do with them either. Most of the horses who have gone to slaughter are unwanted horses. If they were truly wanted, someone would have them. (for the most part, there are exceptions) And even those who may WANT to save even ONE horse cant because of the economy are unable to do so.

For those who are against slaughter, I ask you, how many horses have YOU personally saved? (and are on your property or re-homed to permanent homes now?) And how many are you willing to save year, after year after year? Because the horses don't go away, and they keep coming every year. I have personally saved AT LEAST 20 horses in the last 5 years. (I am not truly FOR slaughter either but I understand that it's a necessary evil) But due to the economy I still have 2 I am trying to re-home and don't have plans for any more in the near future. What is supposed to happen to them.

And I have another question. Why is it ok to euthanize 100's of thousands dogs and cats every year, but not horses?


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## americancowgurl31391

First of all its not ok for dogs either, and we should stop that also but we should help horses while we can. And i did read your post, and my horse was made into dog food after he was shot. And him being shot was not ok. I dont agree with shooting a horse or slaughtering. Why would they make up humane euthanasia? Or you can donate your horses to rescues.


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## TxHorseMom

So, basically you are saying you should not euthenise any animal for any reason. Well, sorry, I live in the real world. We would be over run with animals if we didn't do something with them. Since not enough people will spay/neuter their pets (or geld and not breed crap) then it will continue. Personally, I don't have millions of dollars or millions of acres to save them all. Do you? What do you propose to do with all the animals. And don't say send them to rescues because they are FULL!!!! Rescues can not take the 100,000 horses that used to be slaughtered EVERY YEAR. In just 5 years that will be one half MILLION horses that don't have homes. (less the ones who get taken over the boarder anyway) Plus the ones that are bred. every year. Do you have a REALISTIC option? I would love to hear it. I would love to get legislation started to solve this problem.


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## americancowgurl31391

Your rather rude coming across. Slaughtering should not be allowed. We banned it in the U.S. so why not ban it from other countries?! You obviously havent had a horse sent to slaughter so you dont know how it feels. Its the worst feeling in the world. New rescues could be opened and they are not all full!! I dont see how you agree with slaughter, a real horse lover wouldnt.
And no we shouldn't euthanize animals for no reason...Should we be sending them to slaughter for no reason???


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## Erin_And_Jasper

i would shoot my horse. i think putting it down would be bad. i would have my neighbor, who is a gun person, shoot him. slaughter is a nessacery evil.


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## ponyboy

Sorry if someone mentioned this already but horses are not slaughtered for dog food. The meat goes to gourmet markets in Europe and Japan. Nobody (not even dogs) would starve if we stopped slaughtering horses for meat.


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## TxHorseMom

No, I have never had a horse sent to slaughter, because I am a responsible owner. I have had horses put down though, because of age, injury and/or disease. And they were put down with a bullet by my husband. It was a hard thing to do, but responsible because WE took care of it instead of letting someone else do it by sending them to a "rescue". Again, it was fast, and painless. I only hope when I go, it's that easy.

You still have not come up with a feasible solution though. Open new rescues you say. Ok. Tell me where, Who has the property to take in 500,000 plus horses? (and more coming every day)Who has the $$ to pay for the feed, vet care, farrier, etc for all of these horses? Do you? Cause I'd love to hit you up with a loan if you do!

I am sure by now my tone is starting to "sound" exasperated. Its because I am. Because all I hear is that it is wrong and we shouldn't do it. Ok fine. I would LOVE it if there was no need. Can ANYONE tell me how NOT to do it and still have good homes for all of these "unwanted" (again, because they_ are _unwanted) horses? And who's going to pay for it all, and who is going to run it and who is going to make sure that it's done right? Not the govt. because they are having a hard enough time with the wild mustangs. There is not enough time or money for them as it is.

Yes, we have outlawed it. My question is, who is going to clean up the mess now? It's real easy to say don't do things and then close your eyes to what is happening. What I'd like it to find a real answer to the problem instead of burying my head in the sand.


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## JustDressageIt

*sigh* I'm about to get flamed, I know it but.... I agree with slaughter. It's the only way to get rid of the horses nobody wants, or can afford to take care of.
HOWEVER - and here's the catch - I only agree with a HUMANE method of slaughter. What we have now is inhumane - the stocks are made for cattle, not horses, so the horses can move around and are rarely struck in the right spot to kill them.
How else are we supposed to deal with the millions of unwanted horses that are produced every year? Euthanasia is a great idea - but then what do we do with the bodies? They can't be used as food, and take up a TON of space to be buried. We'd be creating more waste. Burning them is a no-go either, creates too much pollution. 
If slaughter is banned everywhere, what then? Government money to pay for this expensive mass euthanasia and burial? That would cost the economy untold amounts. 

Breeders are NOT going to smarten up either - everyone is of the like mind that "one more foal can't hurt." YES IT CAN, when there are a million people saying that, producing a million foals per year - even if only HALF of those couldn't be taken care of, then bingo, there's half a million horses going to slaughter.

What do you suggest?

Here's my 2 cents.
*Irresponsable breeders are the ones to blame.*
In my ideal world, only APPROVED stallions should be allowed to breed. They should have to get re-approved every year, and if their progeny isn't doing well, they lose their "manliness."
The reason I picked on the stallions is for 2 reasons: 1) One mare can only have one foal per year.. one stallion can produce literally thousands. and 2) Stallions are easier to "fix."
Stallions should only be allowed to service X amount of mares per year, and if they are caught doing elsewise, they get a hefty fine - same with unapproved stallions.

There ya go, there's my opinion in a nutshell.


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## ponyboy

I think a lot of people forget that the people who eat horse meat from North America are also to blame here. As I said in the other forum, the meat doesn't go to dog food. If horsemeat wasn't in demand irresponsible breeders couldn't make money selling horses to slaughter. And if the meat wasn't going to be eaten we could at least drug the horses first, which would probably make things easier on the slaughter plant workers as well. It would be a win-win.


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## TxHorseMom

I am going to repeat what I posted in another thread regarding slaughter and "whose fault" it is.


Personally, I am tired of everyone blaming the "backyard breeder". What about the BIG breeders who breed hundreds of horses looking for "The One"!? I am a small time breeder. I breed 2-4 horses per year. (I have cut back) I generally have a waiting list for my babies. I have a rep in my community for breeding correct, level headed foals who are easily trained, but are affordable. I have yet to find ANY of my babies who arent with their original owner. Yet you'll have me believe that it is MY fault horses are going to slaughter? Sorry. I don't think so. I think that there are many factors and overbreeding is only one of them. 

Look at the racing industry. Thousands of foals are born looking for the next Derby winner. Or the PMU horses. Where a foal is only a byproduct from collecting pregnant mare urine. 

Another factor IMO in all the idiots out there who think they can train horses and because they can't they ruin horses. (both mentally and physicaly) Then theres those who train too early and ruin a horse due to overuse on a young horses body. 

Yes, there will always be idiots who breed a terrible mare to a worse stallion. But just screaming at them to "JUST STOP BREEDING" will get you nowhere. I know I wouldn't listen to you. Call me a horrible person, but I don't think that only high dollar horses should be bred. If that was the case, most of you wouldn't be owning one. It would turn back to being a sport only for "Kings". Personally, I'm glad I have mine.


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## minihorse927

ponyboy said:


> Sorry if someone mentioned this already but horses are not slaughtered for dog food. The meat goes to gourmet markets in Europe and Japan. Nobody (not even dogs) would starve if we stopped slaughtering horses for meat.



What world do you live in? Go to a standardbred race horse auction and see who buys the horses that sell for 100-200 dollars. They are wearing shirts have the ALPO logo on them! I am not kidding due to the fact that I use to train standardbreds for a lady and went to the auctions with her, I thought she was joking when she told me this until I seen it myself. Then after the ALPO people buy these horses, they would remain on the grounds for 3 days with no food or water until a semi trailer came to pick them up finally. There were many of them I personally bought hay and gave water to since we stabled at the fairgrounds where the auctions tooks place so a few less of their last days would be so horrible. I can not believe that someone actually has others believing horses are not made into dog food.


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## Snapple122

So, I am just going to post the same message that I posted in another thread. 

Everyone is going to think that I am living in a land of rainbows and butterflies, but I'm not. I know what is going on in the world. 
And the majority of horses going to slaughter are in fact, not "backyard horses" or horses people don't care for. No, most of the horses that go to slaughter are race horses who don't make it at the track.. young horses that could be wonderful riding horses. 


> What types of horses are being slaughtered? Aren't these old, sick horses?
> 
> According to 2001 field studies conducted by Temple Grandin et al., 70% of all horses at the slaughter plant were in good, fat, or obese condition; 72% were considered to be "sound" of limb; 84% were of average age; and 96% had no behavioral issues.[6] Slaughter plants do not want old, sick horses for obvious reasons.


--http://www.fund4horses.org/info.php?id=608#types 

so, your theory that horses that are going to slaughter are old, diseased, and mistreated is sadly mistaken. 

I've seen pictures of horses in the loading corrals and walking up to the slaughter house, forced to walk in between two fences to their death, and I tell you, you can see the fear in their eyes. 
I would never touch a peice of horsemeat, let alone eat it. 
. 
Horses are not raised for slaughter, and they are people's pets, and they have intelligence. 

and yes, horse meat is used in dog food, which is the precise reason I do not feed my dogs canned food. I feed them dry food, sometimes I put gravy or something on top, just to make it a little more appealing. 


anyway, that is my view.. everyone is entitled to their own opinion


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## Snapple122

> Quote from a slaughterhouse worker:
> 
> "You move so fast, you don't have time to wait till a horse bleeds out. You skin him as he bleeds. Sometimes a horse's nose is down in the blood, blowing bubbles, and he suffocates."


--http://www.fund4horses.org/info.php?id=608#types

And this is more humane then having your horse euthanized??:roll: 
I think not. 
This is absolutley digusting and I still can't believe some of you support it.


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## Snapple122

Sorry for all the posts. 
But I just wanted to answer the initial question. 
My answer is no. never. ever. 
I would never send my pony to slaughter.. it makes me sick to think about it, If she was suffering, I would have the vet out to euthanize her.. no matter how much it cost. I would go without some things for a while if I had to.


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## upnover

I hope none of the horses I've ever worked with end up being sold by the pound! I'm financially secure enough that if my horse needed to be put down I'd call out a vet, and I have the luxery of knowing pasture owners who would let me bury him on their property. 

BUT, I am completely and entirely pro-slaughter. As most people who are employed in the horse industry (and have to deal with real practical decisions on a day to day basis) are. Not sure if this matters to anyone, but even the AQHA are against the ban. 

The thing is, we have to get past thinking with just our hearts and think practically as well and think about the LONG TERM consequences of shutting down slaughter plants and consider what is better for the horses in the long run. To all of those people who say "send them to a rescue"... trust me, I've volunteered with rescues and there is NOT room! there are not finances, there isn't enough man power to take in all those unwanted horses. Most of them were filled to the brim before slaughter was banned and before hay/grain prices skyrocketed. 100,000 a year is a lot of horses. 

To be honest, is slaughter a horse any different then slaughtering a cow? Other then our sentimental opinion that horses are pets? To say that slaughter should be banned because its cruel should be made wide to EVERY animal. And I would feel like a bit of hypocrite saying that and not being a complete vegan. The AAEP (American Assoc. of Equine Practitioners) says that the captive bolt gun used in slaughter plants are the most humane way to put down an animal, even more so then barbituates (chemicals). Yes, I'm sure that quality control is not always at its best, but support slaughter and fight for better conditions!


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## upnover

I have some questions about the statistics from Temple Grandin. (she's completely pro-slaughter btw) did they go and do flexion tests of all the horses? How are they supposed to know if a horse has no behavioral issues? Did they saddle them up to see if they're chronic rear-ers? I've been to auctions before and while I hear of some really horrendous conditions at some, the ones I've been to aren't too bad. I'd say 90% of the horses I saw were between 1-3 years old, barely (if at all) halter broke, conformationally hideous young horses that hadn't had a lick of training. Some feet needed work, some didn't. Sure, there were some skinny old guys in the bunch. But they were NOT all abandoned once loved school horses that have done nothing but serve people each day. They were the overbred culls that people bred for the heck of it that they couldn't afford to feed through the winter. Who's taking in all the unwanted horses again? Have fun training that many semi-feral 3 year olds...


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## upnover

And one more thing! (ha, getting sick of me yet? ) 

The horses being slaughtered are being sent overseas for human consumption, they are being made into dog food, but they also are sent to zoos to feed the animals (the leanness of the meat is healthier and more similar to the animals they'd naturally eat in the wild) and rendered for different purposes. For example, they use a piece of the heart to use in artificial hearts because it's more effective then using a synthetic product. 

Ok, I'm getting off my soap box (finally). Sorry for the multiple posts! But when you've volunteered with rescues, when you go to auctions, when you see starving horses because people who'd send their horses to auction keep them but can't afford to feed them, when you hear about the housands of horses being sent to mexico to die horrific deaths... basically, when you're daily immersed into the horse industry... it's very difficult to not be pro-slaughter. Seriously, off my soap box....


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## TxHorseMom

upnover,
yep, yep, and yep. For a while there I thought I was the only one who felt that way. Would I send one of my personal horses? No way. But for all the reasons you posted (and more) I think banning it was a BIG MISTAKE. I wish there was more humane treatment of ALL animals. I don't think that one type is more special than another.


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## upnover

We're in this together TxHorseMom! thanks for being a responsible breeder btw....


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## ArabianAmor

Wow that was a long thread to read!! So this is what I got... Don't ban it because that would be a horrible idea considering economy, space, and such. And as far as the people in Europe or whatever that they should stop eating horse meat, really is being unfair and just dumb. No one asked you to stop eating beef or pork just because they loved the animals too much. 

I came into this topic when I was first alerted by it with an open mind. I do not believe just _unwanted_ horses should goto slaughter. There are many people out here, like myself, who would love to own a horse again. I am so grateful for those who rescue horses all the time.  But people who cannot afford it should have an option. Although, I would never take the money if I sold it to slaughter (which I still never would-because I could afford it if it was really necessary.) But as others had said, a quick simple death is the answer. 

This is the way I see it, if I die any part of me that can be used for the still living should be used. Who would I think I am, bing dead and all, to say that my healthy organs should be buried? 

As far as all the other animals being put down, its sad really but we have no other choice. Just like if we didn't poison rats. They would take over. Dogs and cats would too. Spreading diseases, starving, being uncared for. 

I don't know, its a hard topic. But people need to see the reality and stop being so closed minded. I know the words "shot in the head" and "slaughter" catch you by surprise. But a bullet in the head is the most humane way possible as far as not letting it suffer. The horse will never know what hit him really. Its not like someone holding a gun to our head. We would know whats coming, they don't. They are at peace.


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## ponyboy

ArabianAmor said:


> And as far as the people in Europe or whatever that they should stop eating horse meat, really is being unfair and just dumb. No one asked you to stop eating beef or pork just because they loved the animals too much.


Well I don't know about you but I have run into lots of people who want me to stop eating beef and pork, as well as all other types of meat. They're called vegetarians. They're annoying but hey it's free speech. No one can force other people to change their habits but everyone has the right to try. If they didn't most religions would be outlawed wouldn't they?


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## Solon

Exactly - there are a lot of people out there that would love for us to stop eating cows and chickens and pigs.

Just because we didn't grow up eating horses doesn't mean that other cultures that have are wrong to do so.


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## ArabianAmor

ponyboy said:


> ArabianAmor said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as far as the people in Europe or whatever that they should stop eating horse meat, really is being unfair and just dumb. No one asked you to stop eating beef or pork just because they loved the animals too much.
> 
> 
> 
> Well I don't know about you but I have run into lots of people who want me to stop eating beef and pork, as well as all other types of meat. They're called vegetarians. They're annoying but hey it's free speech. No one can force other people to change their habits but everyone has the right to try. If they didn't most religions would be outlawed wouldn't they?
Click to expand...

Hahaha I knew that one was going to come up. But what I mean is its not fair to ask someone to give up something they love just because you don't like it. I have family members that actually live on a farm and raise pigs. Every year they have to raise a pig and they know that one day it will be eaten. Sad, I know. I could never do it. But thats just the way it goes. I would never eat horse meat myself. But all people eat different more weird things. And I understand that it could be devastating to have your beloved animal be eaten but if it was going to die anyway and some of it could be used for something else....then??? 
I don't know. I'm not here to argue. I just thought I would state my opinion.


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## TxHorseMom

ArabianAmor you are right. If someone wants to voluntarily give up a certain type of food, that is one thing. But we don't have the right to say that someone shouldn't/couldn't eat that food. Just as someone from another country (or this one even) has no right to tell me I can't eat beef, or pork, or chicken.

Some people in 3rd world countries eat dogs and cats. Do I agree with it? No I certainly dont. But I don't have the right to tell a starving family that they can't eat the only meal available. Yes, I know, rich europeans have other choices, but I still don't have the right to tell them what to eat.

BTW when a horse is buried, it is eaten by worms, and grubs, and other things. It is still being eaten by something. But because you can't see it, it doesn't bother you.


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## ArabianAmor

> BTW when a horse is buried, it is eaten by worms, and grubs, and other things. It is still being eaten by something. But because you can't see it, it doesn't bother you.


Hahahaha this is true!! Thats why I think its unfair to not let something that is already dead be used for the still living....


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## Curly_Horse_CMT

JustDressageIt said:


> *sigh* I'm about to get flamed, I know it but.... I agree with slaughter. It's the only way to get rid of the horses nobody wants, or can afford to take care of.
> HOWEVER - and here's the catch - I only agree with a HUMANE method of slaughter. What we have now is inhumane - the stocks are made for cattle, not horses, so the horses can move around and are rarely struck in the right spot to kill them.
> How else are we supposed to deal with the millions of unwanted horses that are produced every year? Euthanasia is a great idea - but then what do we do with the bodies? They can't be used as food, and take up a TON of space to be buried. We'd be creating more waste. Burning them is a no-go either, creates too much pollution.
> If slaughter is banned everywhere, what then? Government money to pay for this expensive mass euthanasia and burial? That would cost the economy untold amounts.
> 
> Breeders are NOT going to smarten up either - everyone is of the like mind that "one more foal can't hurt." YES IT CAN, when there are a million people saying that, producing a million foals per year - even if only HALF of those couldn't be taken care of, then bingo, there's half a million horses going to slaughter.
> 
> What do you suggest?
> 
> Here's my 2 cents.
> *Irresponsable breeders are the ones to blame.*
> In my ideal world, only APPROVED stallions should be allowed to breed. They should have to get re-approved every year, and if their progeny isn't doing well, they lose their "manliness."
> The reason I picked on the stallions is for 2 reasons: 1) One mare can only have one foal per year.. one stallion can produce literally thousands. and 2) Stallions are easier to "fix."
> Stallions should only be allowed to service X amount of mares per year, and if they are caught doing elsewise, they get a hefty fine - same with unapproved stallions.
> 
> There ya go, there's my opinion in a nutshell.


Hit the nail on the head, JustDressageIt. Good work! Kudos


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## Painted Ride

i just heard that reciently it was deamed illegal in the usa to slaughter horses for dog food or glue!!!


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## TxHorseMom

tbenitez said:


> i just heard that reciently it was deamed illegal in the usa to slaughter horses for dog food or glue!!!


No, it is illegal in the US to slaughter horses for human consumption.


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## mkl039

*Correction!*



TxHorseMom said:


> No, it is illegal in the US to slaughter horses for human consumption.


 
It is not illegal. People say it is but it is not. My cousin works for the National Bearau of Animal Safety and there is NOT a law that horses cannot be slaughtered for human consumption. 

Now, I myself think it should be illegal, but to set the truth straight, there is no such law.


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## LadyDreamer

I would never voluntarily send one of my horses to slaughter, but I have NO problem whatsoever in using Horsemeat in Dog Food. To me that would be much better than feeding my dogs a food packed with corn and chicken by-product. Good, quality dog food is SO expensive. 

I feel horse slaughter is a necessary evil. It is important to try and save what you can, but you cannot save them all.

One of my favorite quotes: *"Take what you can have. Rejoice in what you can save, and do not mourn your losses too long."*


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## Curly_Horse_CMT

*Slaughter for dog food?*

:shock: I could never, ever send my horses to slaughter. If they couldnt go to a good home in a situation where I would have to get rid of them, then I would either euthenize them or a bullet to the brain, if all else fails.


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## QtrHorse

What about for people food? Here in Switzerland (and across Europe) horse meat is very popular and available at all the grocery stores and in many restaurants. There are even special butcher shops - Boucherie Chevaline - these are dedicated just to selling horse. There is a race of horses called Franche Montagne and many breeders sell exclusively for meat. An average sized horse will sell for about $1,000.00 to the butcher so there is money in it for people. The price for "foal" meat is higher. I guess like veal is higher than beef.
Personally, I am a vegetarian but they have even served it at my kids school for lunch. So people don't think very strongly about it here.

BTW if you have to have a horse put down, you can request it be euthanized by vaccine rather than "bolted". Then, I believe, the meat is inedible.


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## LadyDreamer

That's the thing Qtr, most of our horses here are vaccinated, wormed, on meds, etc. There are many medications that I have given that specifically say "Not for use in animals for human consumption". 

A lot of the kill buyers pick up their horses from stockyard auctions. Anyone who has ever considered buying from an auction realize the number one thing to watch out for in the horses is them being drugged. 

All horsemeat for human consumption(which I thought was illegal before the ban?) was exported to Europe. What I want to know is how many of those horses that were killed and exported were drugged? And with what?? And that meat was shipped for human consumption?

And here in the US eating horsemeat is Taboo.

Most people HERE see horses as pets, not livestock, and would never eat a horse. I know a boy who used to raise long horn cattle. He viewed them as pets and says he will never knowingly eat longhorn beef, because he loves the breed. He still eats other beef, but long horns are close to his heart.


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## kenda

I think it's pretty unfair to label someone who supports a quick death and a purpose after death, as not being a 'true horse lover'. I do not know a lot about the actual operation of a slaughter house, however, I don't support allowing horses to starve in fields because no one can afford to feed them. If a horse is dangerous, would you rather pass them off to the next unsuspecting owner or have them 'put down' quickly?

And once dead, what good does incinerating or burying do?

People are against the hunter who displays his prey, stuffed, on the wall. They say, if you must hunt, then make use of every part of the animal you kill, if you can. Yet, you'd rather your horse goes into the fire or the ground then that they might go to feed somebody?

I agree that the major problem in the horse industry is over-breeding. However, we're faced with a problem that we must solve, since we created it: to many horses, not enough owners. Rescue's can be excellent operations if run correctly but the fact is that not every horse who's rescued is going to be suitable to go to a new home, especially a novice horse owner home where the person naively thinks they're doing the horse a favour but in actuality has no idea how to deal with there new horse's issues.

I'm not sure if I was able to express myself clearly, but hopefully I made some sense.


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## TxHorseMom

See, the thing is that the people on this board are responsible and take care of their horses. If one of mine gets hurt or injured and can not be saved, they get put down quickly with a bullet. But there are many, many people out there who do not. There are well meaning people who start up a "rescue" and then don't have the money to pay to care for them. There are ignorant people who don't know how to feed one and they end up starving. Then there are those idiots out there who just don't care. Unfortunately its because of THOSE people that we need slaughter. The fuglyhorseoftheday blog is FULL of people who not only don't care, but are criminal. Is it better for the horse to suffer for days, months, YEARS on end? Or is it better for a relatively quick death. I vote for death.


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## Deb

kenda said:


> I think it's pretty unfair to label someone who supports a quick death and a purpose after death, as not being a 'true horse lover'. I do not know a lot about the actual operation of a slaughter house,


Watch this video and see if it is a quick death.


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## TxHorseMom

No, I am not going to watch your video. Most of those videos are the exception to the rule, not what generally happens. As I said, relatively quick death. Is starving in some dry lot faster?


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## smrobs

Deb, I did watch this video and I did cry. BUT, this is the result of not having monitored plants running in the US. Horses are going to be sent to slaughter either here in the states, or they will be shipped to Mexico or Canada. The most cruel part of this video was filmed in a slaughter house in Mexico where there are no regulations for the way that the animals are killed. I think that they should be monitored while they run to ensure the least amount of suffering possible for the horse. I am pro-slaughter on one condition: that it is done in a humane manner. The plants that are shown in the video are specifically chosen to show the worst side of slaughter. Not all plants are run that way. It has been said many times before but I will say it again. Slaughter is a necessary evil. The supply greatly outweighs the demand and there are horses starving to death every day all over the country because the owners are no longer able to care for them, cannot sell them due to the market, and are not able to sell them for slaughter. Most of these people cannot afford to have them put down either because if they can't buy food to feed the horse, where are they going to get up to $500 to have it euthanized.


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## DarkChylde

I am a little worried about the fate of two arabians I had, but the the others are safe in protected homes. I would never want my horses to meet that fate. It is my personal dream to own acres and acres and run a reserve for 'dangerous' horses to run free and adapt to semi-wild conditions. But I gotta plug my way thru nursing training first....

I am very anti-slaughter, tho I don't judge anyone for their stance, I know the facts and the stats and I think we should tuff it out for the overall future welfare of the horses. We have to deal with the real problem of overbreeding that we turned a blind eye to cuz slaughter dealt with the problem for us. 

I would like to see some sort of border control myself, they have it fo drugs(medicine) and fruits and the like.... But the law would have to be passed first and that hasn't happened yet.


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## Kincsem

I do not believe that slaughter is necessary and only evil. Slavery was called a necessary evil at one time. Horse rescues or animal control could take the horses and if necessary euthanize them. A horse can cost less to feed than some dogs if they have enough pasture. Starving dogs and horses is illegal and both can be turned over to someone else if necessary. Euthanizing a horse does not have to cost a lot. Bullets do not cost much. One well placed bullet from a .380,38,9 mm,rifle etc is humane and quick. The body can be buried or used to feed animals. Those who starve horses can and should be arrested as should those who starve any animal. Starving animals is a crime whether they are large or small and the guilty should be turned in and nobody should be making excuses for them. The difference between dogs and horses is usually that somebody can turn a profit with the horse and not the dog. $$$ are difference. Greed not need is the reason for slaughter .


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## kickshaw

Kincsem said:


> I do not believe that slaughter is necessary and only evil. Slavery was called a necessary evil at one time. Horse rescues or animal control could take the horses and if necessary euthanize them. A horse can cost less to feed than some dogs if they have enough pasture. Starving dogs and horses is illegal and both can be turned over to someone else if necessary. Euthanizing a horse does not have to cost a lot. Bullets do not cost much. One well placed bullet from a .380,38,9 mm,rifle etc is humane and quick. The body can be buried or used to feed animals. Those who starve horses can and should be arrested as should those who starve any animal. Starving animals is a crime whether they are large or small and the guilty should be turned in and nobody should be making excuses for them. The difference between dogs and horses is usually that somebody can turn a profit with the horse and not the dog. $$$ are difference. Greed not need is the reason for slaughter .


very nice post!


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## xkatex

Slaughter will always be an issue until horse owners (the good and bad) are more responsible with buying and breeding their horses. Im sure everyone here has seen people posting about breeding their grade mare to a $100 stud. Why? Whats the point? No offense but two (for lack of better words I apologize) "worthless" horses do NOT make a good horse. And incase your wondering YES I have HAD to send a horse to slaughter. No it wasnt my choice it was the owners. We had her sent to 3 professional trainers, none of which were able to ride her. Also it was not possible to have her as a companion as she would either keep away in a far off corner or begin chasing another horse until we removed them.

No I am not for slaughter. it would be nice if everyone could find homes for their unwanted horses OR if euthanization was affordable to everyone. It all comes down to money. Spending money on euthanization or making money for sending to slaughter? I have gone as far as GIVING a horse away to a family friend in order to "save his life". He was an ottb. He had a flipped pallet even after surgery and also had several heart issues along with an anti-social attitude to most horses. I spent a great deal of money on him but still saw it fit to give him away to what I know would be a loving and caring home.

So no im not supporting slaughter, I hate it, makes me cringe at the thought of it. But until horse owners begin to take repsonsiblity, slaughter will always be there, unfortunately.


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## KatieStanley

I know that horse slaughter is a nessacary evil...a bullet/stun gun to the head is one thing...being poked and stabbed over and over until the horse can no longer move, but can still FEEL is a WHOLE different story. Makes me sick. But since it's being done in a country outside of the US...I'm sure it's out of our hands.  ...I wish we lived in a perfect world, but we don't and sure as hell never will.


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## KatieStanley

farmpony84 said:


> There aren't any slaughter houses left in the US... How does it work now?


 
They ship them to Mexico or Canada. Mexico is far worse- horses that go there are killed by repeated stabs to the spinal area to make them go limp, but I am sure they can still feel. They do not die unti they bleed to death. At least in Canada they give them an instant bullet to the head. Part of me is thankful the US outlawed horse slaughter houses...but part of me wishes they would re open them here...it's done more humanly...if that can even be a word to describe it.


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## Kincsem

Horse slaughter has not been done humanely in Canada either and it was not humanely done in the US either. HBO had a story on horse slaughter and they had film of horses suffering in Canada. I believe it was called "Track to table in 7 days". Some horses have drugs in their systems when they go to slaughter that could be harmful to people eating the meat like Clenbuterol. There are many other drugs used in horses some illegaly like cobra venom to kill pain. Horses are not raised for meat and their bodies can contain substances that would not be allowed in cattle or other meat animals. Those who eat horsemeat are risking their health and their lives if the meat came from horses not raised for it. I know horse slaughter is NOT necessary. I am proud of the fact that Thoroughbred associations and many racetracks are now adopting "no tolerance for slaughter" policies. At many racetracks anyone selling a horse to slaughter or at an auction with kill buyers will not be allowed stalls and will have to leave the grounds. They are banned. Suffolk Downs in Massachusetts was first but there are others now in West Virginia,Maryland,Pennsylvania,California,etc. Many Thoroughbred owners and breeders contribute to horse rescues. The Jockey Club which registers all Thoroughbreds is against horse slaughter. These Thoroughbred tracks,owners,breeders,trainers,etc have helped to make the world better for horses. They do not believe in the old evil past. Maybe the world will not be perfect when we leave it but if we do not accept things as they are we may leave it better than it is now. Thoroughbred breeding is also down. Thoroughbred people are breeding less horses. Other breeds need people who care also.


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## xkatex

Thoroughbred racing isnt popular around this area but stanardabreds are. But instead of slaughter, most people find selling them to the amish more so morally correct and "fills the pockets" better. Also there is a standardbred adoption agency that takes in OTSBs.


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## chelssss(:

Okay, I know people will have a debate about this, but to me, if the horses are sick and old and just un able to do ANYTHING, not even feed themselves or drink, they can be put down HUMAINLY not beat, cut, etc like they are in the normal house hold. I NEVER would believe in beatign them, and cut open and the DISCUSTING things that they do, do to the horses at the slaughter house. I've saved four horses from houses and if i could, i would try and save all of them but we all know that we cant.

And i am a LOVING horse-woman, and i care for my animals but if it is done HUMAINLY, i think it COULD be acceptable. ONLY if that. I know people think that it should be STOPPED totally, but think of it logically, if its done humainly, and not inhumainly like it usually is, it could and would be acceptale. And it does help our economy alot. Alot of sick, older horses cannot be used anymore, now i'm not saying lets all just make them into food, but just think of it as a humane way to let them go.

thats just my opinion.


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## chelssss(:

also, might i add, Euthanization can be costly, i know bullets dont cost much but it adds up, just think of how the economy is going right now, its HORRIBLE and alost difficult to keep rescues in shape. I rescued my thoroughbred from a rescue a while ago, and I was talking to the owner of the rescue of how she does and still remains to keep the rescue going SOOOOO smoothly, she said "its difficult, and i know i cant save each and every horse, but i try, and thats all that matters, money doesnt matter to me, its good to have, but only if its worth every penny."

slaughtering is a horrible thing to think about, but its the WAY that they do it. they WAY that you see in the videos of how they are put down, there are humane ways of everything, people just dont think throughly.


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## LadyDreamer

You ADOPTED from a rescue. You didn't actually rescue the horse, unless the rescue organization was a POS one. The Rescue Org. rescued the horse.

Kincsem, I have been saying that about the drugs for a long time. I have a mare right now that I give meds to. On the bottle it says specifically "Not for use in animals intended for human consumption." 

According to my vet friend, a lot of these drugs stay in the system a VERY long time. That is my one PRACTICAL reason why I wouldn't want to eat horse. 

Can you imagine the regulations that would come crashing down on horse owners if Horsemeat became not-so-Taboo in America?


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## A Horse Named Hank

*Slaughter*

Please, please do not send a horse to slaughter. Slaughter in Canada is not humane! Horses are herded (overcrowded, very overcrowded!) into trucks to be taken to the slaughter houses. Horses are "prey" animals and, as a result, are often fearful and claustrophobic. When they are crowded into these trucks they bite and kick each other and are often in terrible shape by the time they get to their horrible destination. Stun guns are NOT humane and don't always work. I won't tell you what I think they do after the horse is "stunned". It's too horrible to describe.

Think about all your horse has done for you! If you can't sell or give them away to a good home, please have the vet euthanize them. Better yet, before buying a horse, think about and plan for the day when, for whatever reason, you can't keep them anymore. If you can't afford to make their end as peaceful as possible, then you shouldn't buy a horse.

In Canada, check out the website The Canadian Horse Defense Coalition to find out what you can do to stop this horrible practise in this country.


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## DarkChylde

Very well put, Hank, and thank you.


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## simbakitten

I would never sell my horse to a slaughter house, no matter wht it would do to he horse I WOULD BE TRAUMATIZED TOO!!!
i wouldnt do that to any of my pets. but i guess i can see how some people might...but i still dont like it,


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## county

I raise and sell alot of livestock mostly cattle and horses but also hogs and sheep. I sell to where ever I can get the highest price the money is how we make part of our living. Dangerous/mean animal? Goes right to slaughter regardless of species, just sent a bull their last week.


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## DarkChylde

Well, that is a real shame, the animal is only dangerous cuz a human screwed them up to begin with..... But horses will always pay the price for the human's mistakes.... the ultimate price.


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## county

I place human life and safety over animal every time regardless of why it may be dangerous.


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## DarkChylde

WHy does that require the horse to DIE? If they are taken to a sanctuary, they are not a 'danger', and they don't have to pay the ultimate price for some human that screwed them up to begin with.

But, it wouldn't be as _profitable_ that way, and that is what it REALLY boils down to, innit?


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## county

Why? Because the owner doesn't always choose to do so. Some like myself choose to raise and sell livestock its how we make a living and around here having an income to pay our bills is considered a very good thing.


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## DarkChylde

I consider the welfare of the horses more important than money.

Mite explain why I am beatnik poor, too.:lol: But I like myself, and our horses will never hafta worry about that.

It is what is important to you. Money is just a means to an end for me, but my heart wouldn't let me sell a horse for slaughter when I knew it was only 'dangerous' cuz some human screwed the horse up. 


You can still make money offa livestock and still have all consideration for your animals. I know of a menonite guy near me that has dairy cattle (and some horses). He took a cow to slaughter recently, but he was devastated about it. (Cow had a septic leg wound, wasn't getting better and he can't use medicines that aren't to be used on food animals.) He had no choice, and slaughter was a last option for a suffering animal. 

A dangerous one is one that was incorrectly trained and handled, (we aren't talking about one injured beyond hope of recovery) and reguardless of money or whatever, it is WRONG to have the horse killed when it was the fault of a human that he/she was like that anyway. There are other options, but it seems it is about MONEY and not HORSES. If you REALLY care about the horses, the money shuddn't matter.

If you are into horses strictly for money, you mite be in the wrong business. I am in it for love of the animal, and that love overshadows my greed for money.

Edited to add... I myself cudda made horses my trade, I cudda got into training and breeding for money, but in order to REALLY make the money, I would have had to sacrifice my morals, and what I feel to be right with horses, so I chose to go into nursing. THEN I don't hafta compromise, I don't hafta do what I know is wrong just so I can make some bucks......


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## county

I would never do anything that I know is wrong either also would never raise any species of animal that I didn't love. Nor would I ever sell any to slaughter just for money. I raise and sell them because like most people I support myself to do so takes money. I choose to raise livestock because I'm very good at it and can give animals the love and care they need to live well while their here.

And beleive me I really care about horses. Maybe not the way you do, maybe not in your eyes but certainly no less then you do.


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## DarkChylde

Then my point. 

A dangerous horse was made that way BY A HUMAN. If you would be willing to send a horse to slaughter cuz they were deemed 'dangerous' then IN MY OPINION money must mean more than the horse. There are sanctuarys you can take them too, there are trainers who specialize in so-called dangerous horses, there ARE options other than the slaughterhouse for a so-called dangerous horse, and the responsiblity should lay with the human, since a fellow human screwed the horse up to begin with. Taking them to slaughter when it is a human's fault they were dangerous to begin with is (AS USUAL) making the horse pay for the human's mistake.


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## county

Like I said thats your opinion not mine hardly means yours is right and mine wrong just means their different. I have no desire to control what you do nor do I care to have you control what I do.


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## DarkChylde

I thought the control issue was from the other thread.

No doubt you have a right to your opinion. But do you deny that something should be done about overbreeding in this country? Wudn't that require us 'having to control' what others do? I mean, in our own country and econonmy we can see what happens when business and coperations do when left unchecked, same thing. There is SOME need of control, cuz horses can't go to court, run for government, ect, so there are those of us who appoint ourselves as someone who speaks for thier welfare, and in the face of 'who cares, it isn't ME or MY horse affected, ect.' 

If someone was trying to do something bad, would you have any compunction to intervene? Does that mean you are tryin to CONTROL someone?


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## county

Define bad.

I think theres way way way to many horses in the U.S. I also think theres way to many people. But I am not in favor of limiting the number of either that can be bred. Also not in favor of who can breed ( of either species ) also not in favor of anyone decided which ones should be used for breeding. I'm very very much into our form of gov. where free enterprise and choice are used. 

As far as horse slaughter goes I've just never heard a logical reason to ban it. I don't place the horse above other species. I'm not against exporting food reagardless what kind, I have no problem with someone from another country having a business here we do it so should they if they want. 

Like I said I'd need a logical reason to ban it before I could even think of supporting that movement.


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## DarkChylde

Bad. Something that is not good.

Well, as far as I can tell, humans aren't being slaughtered with the claim it is controlling the population. Besides, I thought you put humans over horses, anyway? And free entreprise is for OUR citizens. The ones that own and run the slaughtehouses WERE NOT our citizens (when the slaughterhouses were in full operation.) Should we stand by and do nothing when horses are abused and forced into such horror? Should we not recognise the FACT that slaughter makes overbreeding profitiable as well as gives incentives for people to steal horses? Should we allow people to make sweat shops and forcibly employ people and not give proper wages or benefits and turn a blind eye cuz it is free enterprise?

That business has helped to create the overpopulation problem in this country. You CANNOT take on the overbreeding issue without recoginsing the incentive given by slaughter making it so profitable. To not regulate businesses puts us in the similar place we are now with banks and wall street. But, that means CONTROLLING.


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## county

Do I don't think we should do any of those things I'd say anyone with much common sense doesn't incluiding myself. Where you came up with the human slaughter thing I have no idea nor am I even interested thats your deal.

I don't see where horse population drives slaughter if it did then we've had to many horses since theres been horses here thats how long we've slaughtered them. Years ago the plants were owned by americans then by other countries I have no problems with either.


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## DarkChylde

You spoke of human overpopulation as if it pertained to the subject of horse overpopulation, I was making a feeble attempt at humor while trying to make a point. Musta got missed. (humor and point)

Actually, it is slaughter that drives the horse population. IF slaughter didn't make overbreeding profitable, I doubt it would be such a problem, most people are in it for the money. Consequently, when the slaughter companies started up, the overpopulation problem started not but a few years later. (I used to have the stats, I don't remember where to find them,tho). Stats show that overbreeding started shortly after the introduction of the slaughterhouses, and has been a problem since. Slaughter was banned in the 1940s, yet slaughterhouses found a way around that. Now the houses have been shut down, tho the bill banning slaughter hasn't passed. They can and will start up again if they can find a place where they are accepted (big problem for them now, most americans other than me are dead set against it). As long as there is a market for horse meat, slaughter will continue to pay people to overbreed as they can sell the culls for meat, and the problem that slaughter creates will continue until slaughtering of horses for human consumptions is stopped.


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## county

Slaughter was banned in the 40's for the state of Tx. only not the rest of the country. There were many many plants all around the country for years. Sorry but I don't see the breeding for slaughter thing. I personally know 100's of breeders from here in Mn. all the way down to Tx. not one breeds for the slaughter market or could come close to making any money doing it. Very very very few places in this country can graze horses year round due to snow, hot dry areas etc. It takes 3 years to get a foal to slaughter weight unless your dealing with drafts. You can make much much much more money grazing cattle that get to slaughter weight in 1/2 the time and are selling for 3 times the money.


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## DarkChylde

There have been three main plants in the US for horse slaughter, 2 in TEXAS and 1 in Illinois. They have been shut down now.

I work in rescue. Most of the rescue horses are OTTB. All these 'unwanted' horses going to slaughter are not springing outta the ground like daisies, they are being BRED. By a HUMAN. Humans are overbreeding, as the guy I know in the mountains does, and they do it cuz they knoe they can sell their culls to the meat men. THIS is breeding for slaughter. I have seen it with my OWN EYES. Why they don't breed cows instead I don't know, except like in the case of that one guy. He CAN make a cuople thousand off a horse, maybe he cudn't get that for a cow, I don't know. But many of the big breeding operations have got it down so that they don't invest much at all per horse, and they can always sell them to the meat men if they don't sell for the big bucks.

Also, slaughter has helped the PMU industry overbreed as well. They pay for them to overbreed.


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## county

Actually there have been many plants in the U.S. the 3 you mentioned are the lase that were in operation. At one time there were 2 here in Mn. along with a number of states that had them.

I agree horses don't spring up like daisies actually no animal does. And yes horses from the tracks go to slaughter but thats not the purpose they were bred for. Dairy cows also go to slaughter but their purpose of being bred was to produce mlk.


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## county

If the horse population drives slaughter wouldn't we slaughter more now then at any time? Our horse population is at its highest level in history. Yet percentage wise we slaughter the fewest we even have.


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## DarkChylde

The REASON that the population is more than we ever had is helped by the fact slaughter had people knowing they could easily sell the culls to the meat men, and they had financial incentive to overbreed, just like this guy up here in the mountains does. He will continue to overbreed, as will they all, until the price of a horse finally goes far enough down that he no longer has the incentive.

I called my friend, btw, the sister, and got up with her, and asked her how many horses he sent to slaughter this year. She said she didn't know how many a year, but the meat guys just picked up 20 horses, all under 3 and perfectly healthy.

The racehorse breeders may not SEEM to breed for slaughter, but when you churn out hundreds of TBs a year, KNOWING that only a third MITE make the grade, and the others are the many OTTBs that end up shipped off for slaughter, then whether they admit it or not, THOSE horses ARE 'bred for slaughter.' The Jockey Club showed some 40,000 to 50,000 (can't remember the exact stats) horses bred and registered this past year, how many of THOSE ended up shipped off to slaughter, minus the lucky few that made the grade or ended up at rescues (and working them I can tell you over half the horses that come in are OTTBs). This is JUST racehorses, this ain't like the HUGE quarter horse ranches out west that also churn out hundreds of horses, and the breeders don't care, they can sell whatever doesn't sell to meat men, they get THEIR money reguardless, the breed industries don't care (tho I must say that is SLOWLY changing) they get money for every horse that is bred and papered, they have that financial incentive to encourage overbreeding, not to metion the fees they get with every transfer, and I am ashamed to say that the AMVA also supports slaughter, cuz if we stopped overbreeding, there mite not be the plentious supply of money that comes in per animal. It still boils down to MONEY, or HORSES. I vote for horses.

So slaughter has contributed to the problem, never HAS helped the problem as it claims it has, it DOES give financial incentive to overbreed. THIS is the effect on horse populations. 


The three I mentioned slaughtered STRICTLY horses, they were big plants that didn't slaughter any thing BUT horses. I don't know about your plant, but most plants that slaughtered only horses have been closed down. Unfortunately, slaughter is STILL goin on, it is still an outlet, and it still provides an incentive to overbreed. When gas prices got so high, I hoped it would deter some of the transport, but I am sure it is in full swing again. Until we close the borders, we can't deal with the problem as it should be. But the border problem, as it concerns other countries, is far trickier, PLUS we can't pass ANY legislation TO close the borders until the bill is passed (you can make legislation based on legislation that hasn't passed yet.) So, first the bill has to pass, then we can focus on closing the borders to slaughter, and we will be FORCED to deal with overpopulation (as we should be), tho with the incentive taken away, it mite take awhile for even the most stubborn of overbreeders to stop, but when horses go BACK to being pets in this country, instead of being bred as a food animal, thier population numbers will balance out. We will have a problem at first, and it is ALL our responsibility to do what we can.


For one thing, instead of buying a horse that has been bred by one of these big facilities, let us listen to our heart and rescue a horse, rather than join the swelling ranks of breed snobs. Also, breed registries should have VERY strict restrictions on breeding, (even tho it DOES cut into the their 'bottom line') and do like the Fresians and the horses HAVE to pass a very rigous inspection process TO be registered. Don't see Fresians overpopulating. But I see TBs and QH (and I only use them as examples because those two breeds are the most proliferate in this country, more of them than any other registeries) with horrible conformation being bred and spitting out inferior animals all the time, perhaps if the registries would have more rigerous standards then fewer animals could be registered, and the big breeders would slow down on the over production of these animals. And while I do NOT support the NAIS thing, I DO think legislation that has breeding restrictions should be introduced, to stop the backyard breeders as well. (and the legislation needs to be enforced, not all the laws passed to protect the welfare of animals actually ends up enforced.) Dogs and cats are not allowed to be overbred like this, they have laws against 'puppy mills' (and rightly so) I think similar legislation should be entered for horses, as well as possibly considering the age-old arguement of having a horse's legal status changed from livestock (which allows for much more breeding than non-livstock animals) to pet animals.
Plus, as to what to do with the horses that ARE pets, and have gotten injured, are too old, whatever where they have no quality of life anymore, the horse be treated well, put down with GREAT care taken to ensure the animals suffers NO pain, that death is verified PER ANIMAL before bleeding and skinning, and the meat be used to help us here in america to develop food for the hundreds of thousands of dogs and cats in this country so that China cant poison our pets anymore (are you listening, ALPO and others that have sold out and sold US out?) and give americans a chance to use the meat to feed horses (or, even more wonderful, if it IS to be used for human consumption, we send it to starving people in Darfur and Myrmar and such......) But_ all_ that is with the understanding that a serious and all-encompassing change in the way they were slaughtered HAS to change.


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## county

So explain why right now at this time our horse population is the highest in history anbd the slaughter rate the lowest. Your therory just doesn't add up. 

If someone wants to take a horse from a rescue snob I have no problem with it. I listen to my heart and buy them from a good hearted breeder.

BTW I vote for horses also.


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## DarkChylde

sigh.

The slaughter rates are ONLY low rite now (and AGAIN, we cannot know what the real stats are since they are going over the border and no stats are being counted) is cuz the biggie slaughterhouses are closed. Population is up cuz overbreeding is so profitable.


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## county

We don't have stats? Yes we do the USDA has stats for every horse that leaves this country, where it goes, and what its purpose is. Were slaughtering about 1/2% of our total horse population. Theres not one thing that shows slaughter causes over breeding. Do you actually think we have over 9 million horses so we can slaughter 150,000?

Over breeding is profatable? If that were the case every mare in this country would be bred.


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## DarkChylde

Where are these stats? I would love a link to them.


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## county

On the USDA site. They keep stats on all livestock.


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## my2geldings

No I wouldn't. If it were to come down to putting the horse down for health or other reason, I would get a vet to come out and pay him to put the animal down. It's very comfortable and they don't even know that it's happening. I couldn't think of a better way.


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## county

Actually every vet I've talked to says the horse knows exactly whats going on when killed with drugs they just can't move.


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## Vidaloco

I've stood right by several animals horse included while they get the shot. I don't think animals have the brain power to feel when the end is near just because the vet is giving them a shot. 


county- What reason is there in that sort of statement?


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## county

What reason? Because alot of people feel an animal doesn't know whats going on when giving drugs to kill them. As their organs shut down they know something is going on they just can't react to it.


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## iridehorses

county said:


> What reason? Because alot of people feel an animal doesn't know whats going on when giving drugs to kill them. As their organs shut down they know something is going on they just can't react to it.


 Not possible. I think your are attributing human attributes to an animal that does not have the capacity to think in those terms. Are they aware that something is happening - yes, but not fear of death, they simply can't comprehend. 

I've had animals put down and the drugs given to them is to stop their heats not paralyze them. If they were in great fear, there would be a reaction and I've never seen nor heard of that. Furthermore, outfits like PETA would be all over it if that were the case.


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## Kincsem

I had animals euthanized with sodium pentobarbitol and held them for the vet so I know that there is no suffering when it is done properly and the animal is dead almost imediately with no fear,stress or struggling. One second they are fine and then they go limp and their is no heartbeat,breathing or any other vital signs. The vet checks to make sure they are actually gone. It is totally humane when done right and every vet should know how to do it right.


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## Curly_Horse_CMT

iridehorses said:


> Not possible. I think your are attributing human attributes to an animal that does not have the capacity to think in those terms. Are they aware that something is happening - yes, but not fear of death, they simply can't comprehend.
> 
> I've had animals put down and the drugs given to them is to stop their heats not paralyze them. If they were in great fear, there would be a reaction and I've never seen nor heard of that. Furthermore, outfits like PETA would be all over it if that were the case.


Well said!


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## county

The problem is it doesn't always work that way I've seen a horse that got back up and ran through a 5 strand barb wire fence. Another that ran into a large farm disk and cut itself all up. I prefer to use a .22 rifle one shot and their dead before they hit the ground. But that method also has to be done by someone that knows where to place the shot.


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## Vidaloco

I've never heard of one jumping up but whatever :lol:
Agreed a well placed bullet is another method. I've had to do it myself to well loved pets. 
This topic (gun vs shot) has been done to death here though. Sorry for the pun :wink:


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## Flexion

I'd keep slaughter as a last resort.

This would be my order:

1. Humane euthanasia
2. Shoot the horse/get someone else to shoot him/her for me
3. Send horse to slaughter


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

JustDressageIt said:


> Here's my 2 cents.
> *Irresponsable breeders are the ones to blame.*
> In my ideal world, only APPROVED stallions should be allowed to breed. They should have to get re-approved every year, and if their progeny isn't doing well, they lose their "manliness."
> The reason I picked on the stallions is for 2 reasons: 1) One mare can only have one foal per year.. one stallion can produce literally thousands. and 2) Stallions are easier to "fix."
> Stallions should only be allowed to service X amount of mares per year, and if they are caught doing elsewise, they get a hefty fine - same with unapproved stallions.
> 
> There ya go, there's my opinion in a nutshell.


I agree with you there! My horse came from one of those such breeders...this breeder had over 50 horses on her property she couldn't care for and just kept on breeding them anyway! They were starving and standing around in their own waste, just rotting away. If a foal was born that she didn't like, she's immediately separate it from its mother and leave it in a field by itself to die, or beat it to death herself! DISGUSTING! Thankfully the SPCA finally found out about her and seized the horses, then adopted them out to responsible owners. 

But anyway, I HATE the idea of slaughterhouses but I can see (in rare cases, due to these irresponsible breeders) how they might be necessary...but as some others on here have already said, they need to be regulated and humane and right now, nothing about them is...even the trip down to the slaughterhouse is disgusting and horrible for those horses! I personally could never send a horse to slaughter...I'd sooner give it away to someone for free, or to a rescue group (but I'm lucky, there are a lot in this area and they can normally take on more horses, they're not all full). Also at the barn I'm at, I know a few people who would take on a free horse tomorrow if offered one...it just makes me sad that everyone doesn't have that option. :-(


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## gothy06

i hate the thought of slaughter , if owners dont want there horse to breed then do something about it because people being lazy and not acting leads to cheap sales and slaughter


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## Painteddreamfarm

I have to be honest....I am for slaughter....Not to where anyone should do it but there are points in time where a horse is just to dangerious or there is no helping the horse...and if you have done EVERYTHING possible then slaughter ( or put down ) becuase its inhumane how they do it... the horse does not suffer the whole time and now that the slaughter has closed down here.....notice how many abuse cases are arising, and stranded and left for dead horses....and so many horses that no one can just get a new home for....They are overloading and slaughter was a way to control that.... I myself would never send a horse to slaughter, but Im one of those people that wanted to be a vet but realized couldnt becuase me instead of the owner would be crying saying "There is something we can do!!!" But for some its an only option.....


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## Spider

I'd rather send myself to slaughter rather than my horse.
My god, have you seen what they do?


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## LadyAshen

Never!


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## LadyAshen

DarkChylde said:


> Bad. Something that is not good.
> 
> Well, as far as I can tell, humans aren't being slaughtered with the claim it is controlling the population. Besides, I thought you put humans over horses, anyway? And free entreprise is for OUR citizens. The ones that own and run the slaughtehouses WERE NOT our citizens (when the slaughterhouses were in full operation.) Should we stand by and do nothing when horses are abused and forced into such horror? Should we not recognise the FACT that slaughter makes overbreeding profitiable as well as gives incentives for people to steal horses? Should we allow people to make sweat shops and forcibly employ people and not give proper wages or benefits and turn a blind eye cuz it is free enterprise?
> 
> That business has helped to create the overpopulation problem in this country. You CANNOT take on the overbreeding issue without recoginsing the incentive given by slaughter making it so profitable. To not regulate businesses puts us in the similar place we are now with banks and wall street. But, that means CONTROLLING.


 
You took the words right out of my mouth! 

And I will even go a little further. Breeders, racers, die hard eventers, etc. should be taxed within an inch of their lives for each horse that runs through their hot little hands! 

That will have some great effects. One would be there would be a whole lot less breeding! Two there would be a whole lot less racing and its inherent abuses and cruelties. Three those owners who go throw dozens of horses in their "quest" for the perfect one that will earn them their ribbon/award won't be able to afford to do that anymore. Four every owner will take better care of the horses they have because they don't want to pay a huge tax to replace them. Five the money from these taxes can go to fund rescues and retirement homes. Six owners who are just in it for the cash, will find another easier and cheaper way to line their pockets, and more humane horse lover people will end up working with horses in the horse industry. Then we will see how many folks really love horses.

Also, the horse abuse laws should be expanded and given huge teeth to discourage owners from abuse/neglect, dumping, and killing unwanted horses unless a vet determines it is in the animals best interest to be euthanized. If an owner breaks the rules they are fined and jailed til their cup runneth over with sorrow.

No slaughter houses or transport to another country for the purpose of slaughter. That way the countries who enjoy horse meat can have their meat that is bred and slaughtered in their own country. Just like we don't bred and slaughter dogs or cats for those countries who enjoy dog and cat meat, we should not do it for horse meat. That would take the hypocrisy out of our stance on we can export horse meat, but not dog and cat meat.

JMHO


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## DarkChylde

Well said. Kudos to you, Lady Ashen.:wink:


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## LadyDreamer

I am sorry I greatly disagree with this:* "Breeders, racers, die hard eventers, etc. should be taxed within an inch of their lives for each horse that runs through their hot little hands! "*

My family's life is solely dependent on the sales and training of horses. My dad has known nothing else, and could know nothing else. In his youth he would have been the dream man for any of you horse lovers. To this day he says 'if there aren't horses in heaven I am not going." By ^ that, you would take away his very life and meaning of existence. Horses are expensive enough as it is. By adding more and more and more taxes on them, you will make it impossible to have any business in training or showing or breeding. Some will say, well that is what it should be. I do not think so. 

We don't breed more than we can handle. We will breed four SMARTLY with the expectation of FOUR GREAT ONES. We don't breed twenty in the hopes for two. We will take in horses that are in need. We retire those horses that were exceptionally good for us. When our broodmares are done, they spend the rest of their days in our fields. 

The next horse you get that has laminitis, or some very tragic disease, know that much of the money that funded/is funding the research on curing those diseases is coming from those devilish big money facilities. Refuse treatment next time you take in a foundered horse. Because you will only be promoting those who managed to succeed in the horse industry. 

It is an industry. Horses are livestock. Money is how you play the game.


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## DarkChylde

Were there more breeders like you, there wouldn't be the problem. But alas, the reality is not so.

I don't think _all_ breeders are the problem, and if you are sensible and take responsibility for the animals you create, you are obviously not the problem. The problem IS the mega farms that churn out so many, and the _indiscriminate_ 'backyard breeders' (and if you are not indiscriminate then that doesn't apply to you) don't help either. I have a gorgeous mare and stud colt I have NO intentions of breeding right now. If I find a suitable mare to breed my colt to, I will only to keep the baby. But my livelihood is nursing, why I chose that. I personally bring no judgement on careful breeders.

I think the breed registires also bear some responsiblity, I think ALL registries should be like the Fresians where you must pass a rigorous set of criteria to be registered. As it is, overbreeding fattens up the registries as well, the money per papered horse, not to mention transfer fees and the like. But if they tightened up their standards to where it was manditory for registration that your horse not be papered with the obvious defects I have seen in pedigreed animals, that would help as well.


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## LadyAshen

I find breeder's willingness to slaughter disturbing. 

How can you be a horse lover and a slaughter advocate? It is a contradiction.

That is just my honest opinion.


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## Kentucky

Lady Dreamer that is very well said, to that I will had only this what is more cruel a life of suffering in a feild or a quick death and their body being put to use.


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## county

I'll never understand how someone can think another can't love an animal if they beleive in eating meat. I raise horses, cattle, hogs, sheep, and poultry and love all of them and still beleive some should be used for food. I don't place one species above another to me their all the same.

Stop exporting/importing food and meat? No thanks the ones crying the loudest would be the people in this country if we had to only use what we can produce.


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## tazassape

I didn't have a problem with it (slaughter). If the horse is cripple, dangerous, etc. Get a few bucks to help feed the others! They are animals.


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## Gingerrrrr

Deb said:


> Watch this video and see if it is a quick death.
> 
> YouTube - Horse Slaughter: Cruelty Uncovered



that video made me sick to my stomach.


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## DarkChylde

That 'horse starving in a field' won't be helped much by slaughter, they want weight, it is where they make thier money, and a sickly, starving horse mite not make the trip to begin with. Haeing stood and seen the horses go into slaughter, I didn't see a rib one among them. Also, even THEY admit only 12% of the horses they slaughter are undernorished, old, hurt or sick. That horse standing in the field is there cuz the overpopulation problem created him, unwanted and uncared for, and slaighter has helped to make overbreeding quite lucradive. But still doesn't help those 'starving in a feild', just help to create more of these unwanteds. 
While you said 'quick,' at least you didn['t asy 'humane'. Even 'quick' would be debatable in at leat 50% of the cases.

People don't like the idea of thier pets being eaten, and while horses are listed as livestock, the majority of the them are pets, not food animals. Most people find the idea (in this country) of eating horses really disgusting. So it DOES put it in a different catagory than beef and pork and chicken.


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## county

Horses stave to death for one reason only " The owners are scum bags " it has nothing to do with slaughter at all. And actually since the number of horses has been way up about 92% now are fat healthy horses which only makes sense very few people want to eat old rejected livestock of any species. Personally I never send any of my pets to slaughter regardless of species I suppose a few people sell their pets but very few that I've ever seen.

Most people in this country find eating Lutefish also disgusting but I don't think that should be banned either.


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## county

I also see no horses standing in feilds underfed because of the number of horses if that were the reason why not all of them the same way? The ones standing in feilds are there because the person who owns them made trhe choice to not care for them. If it were because theres to many horses wouldn't the person/s with large numbers of horses be the ones leaving theirs go unfed?

And I've seen no evidence at all that at least 50% of slaughter horses do not get a humane death when slaughtered. I've hauled many loads of livestock to slaughter including horses and while its certainly not 100% that are killed swiftly its not even close to 50% that aren't.


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## Kincsem

Cruelty to one horse,cow,pig,etc. during slaughter is one too many. Would you like to trade places with the ones that die slowly and painfully?


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## county

Would I like to trade places? Silly question, of course not. I',m only stating reality nothing more and nothing lerss. Any person who eats or buys meat helps support the slaughter industry and any imperfections of it. Personally I eat meat, I raise it, I slaughter it, and I'm very well aware of how the system works from end to end. Meat isn't born all wrapped up nice and fancy.


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## LadyDreamer

The only real reason I can think of that would stop me from eating horsemeat would be the drugs. I have personally administered drugs to horses that say quite clearly "Not for use on animals intended for food." How long do those drugs stay in the system? What could the possible effects on the consumer be? Since it is taboo in this country, it is not going to be tested.

Horses are not regulated like food animals. They, to me, are not a safe food, due to potential of drugs. If I could find some good, healthy, unmedicated for-sure-nothing-is-in-it horse meat, I would try it. I have heard it is much healthier than beef.


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## Kentucky

i didn't know that at all.


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## LadyDreamer

About the horses not being regulated, or the Warnings on drug labels?


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## Kentucky

About the horses, i knew some drugs were not to be used in food animals, I was alittle rusty on that. since the stock I dealt with was food animals and I was around any of those drugs.


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## county

Drugs in horses are regulated by the county buying the meat and testing has been done all meat has to pass inspection of the country its going to same as any meat that comes into the U.S. has to pass our inspections. I like horse meat not as much as beef but much better then goat and goat is the most common meat eaten in the world.


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## Kincsem

The suffering of innocent helpless animals may not bother you all any but it bothers me a lot. That is why I became a vegetarian. I do not know how anybody can claim to love animals and be guilty of contributing to their suffering. When you love creatures you want them to be happy not suffering.


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## LadyDreamer

Thank you county. Not helping my meat fears though.  

My biggest thing about that is the auctions where "kill buyers" get the most press. And the first thing to watch out for when buying there is a horse being drugged. And who knows with what. Drugs are a common thing. When I said they weren't regulated, I meant in life, not in death. Yes they are tested at SOME shows, but it isn't each and every. I guess I am just paranoid. (And _please_ county don't start telling me about what is in our beef.)

I love my animals. My animals are not suffering. My animals are happy. I help animals in distress. I support and promote the rescue of my breed. However, I can't say I love all horses. There are many that I have met and ridden that I do not love or even remotely like. I can't say I love your horses. I can't say I love the horses on the trucks. I don't know them. Do I feel bad for those horses. Yes. But I can't take those horses. Can you? Many of those horses I wouldn't even want, as they would have no use for me. I

We are thinking of purchasing some calves. Of course, when raising a baby animal, we are going to get attached to it. They might even have names. We are going to feel bad when we have it slaughtered, and butchered. But it was what it was raised for. Will I be present when it is loaded on the trailer? No. Will I eat it when it is processed and cooked? Heck yes. And I will know where it came from. 

kincsem, do you like Jell-o?


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## Brumby

Here is my view on the subject.

I personally wouldn't bring my horse to the slaughter. I would put her down, but not slaughter house. If other people would want to that is fine. I have no problem with it. But to keep a horse that could never be any good because of some sickness or lameness because you think it is cruel to end its painful life just doesn't make sense. If you have a problem with the slaughter that is fine. But be merciful and put it down.

Just my 2 cence.


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## DarkChylde

Despite what may be promoted, people who are anti-slaughter are not for horses standing around and starving. THOSE horses don't go to slaughter anyway, that is a FACT. Slaughter helps to make overbreeding profitable, and many of us realise that, PLUS the methods used in slaughter are by no means a merciful or painless or even humane death. THAT is why many of us are fighting slaughter, because when we can slow down the overbreeding in this country, that starving animal won't have been CREATED in the first place, unwanted and uncared for, by an irresponsible human, who was only bred to put money in pockets of humans, and who will die cuz no one who has made money off of that horse cares about it now. Slaughter doesn't help the starving ones, meat men don't take them and the sick ones wuddn't survive the trip- but slaughter DOES help create an environment where overbreeding is profitable, and therefor encourages the production of MORE unwanteds to stand around and starve.


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## iridehorses

I just can't get my head around "overbreeding for profit" It simply cost too much to get a horse to slaughter weight - time, feed, if nothing else. Skinny horses do not bring money, fat horses do. Killers buy by the pound not the head.

If there were breeders doing it just for slaughter, there would be no need for those horses to go to auction. The killers would go to them and keep it out of the lime light. 

If you've ever been to an auction that had a reputation for killer buyers, such as New Holland in PA (where I used to go quite often), the horses in the killer pens were not fat and healthy looking for the very most part. They were the castaways that no one wanted. They were skinny, lame, old and their bid price took into consideration the price per pound.

There was an old warning that we used to hear when selling a horse, "if the person calling about your horse seems more interested in their weight then anything else, it's probably a killer buyer".


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## county

Its rare anyone breeds for the meat market theres just no profit there. And kill buyers buy any young horse they can and many are thin. They take them to a feedlot and feed them up to weight with a normal adult horse thats done rather quickly. Inhumane slaughter? Horse slaughter is pretty much the same as any other species the first time kill rate is a little lower but other wise the system is the same. And of course they do it for moneyy name a business that doersn't want to make money its not out of greed people have a job its to pay their bills.


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## DarkChylde

'Slaughter takes care of the overbreeding problem,' this has been stated over and over. But the reality is that big time breeders, the mega farms that churn out hundreds of registered horses all the time, they KNOW even the culls will sell. I personally know a guy who does just this, and his sister has told me there is really no expense to him, except in taxes on his land he would pay anyway. But he advertises as a breeder, makes out like he is so great and knowledgeable, and sells at least a third of his unbroke stock, under 5 years old, btw, to kill buyers. He has little or no overhead, since he set himself up decades ago. He is definately contributing to the overpopulation problem, with no reguard or sense of responsibility, and he IS being paid by slaughter for his culls.

I AM glad to see that the truth about all these poor starving horses being 'saved' by slaughter to be a myth, tho.

No, breeders don't breed for the meat market, or for any other market. they don't usually care where the horse ends up, they breed for the money, nothing else. That in itself isn't bad, but denying responsibility for thier charges is. The breeder I am speakin of definately sells to the meat men, but I am sure he would rather get a few grand outta them.. THAT is why they make so many, for the few that will bring the right price, big bucks some of them if the person is willing to pay that. For the rest, well, who cares, right? THere is always the meat men and auction houses......


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## county

Yes theres always meat buyers for every species of livestock thank goodness. People eat meat always have, always will it doesn't get on a plate by magic.


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## .Delete.

Update. I did sell the sickly pony at a slaughter yard. He only went for 180. Yah.......he didnt go to slaughter tho....i don't think. I had no other choice. I had to get rid of him.


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## my2geldings

.Delete. said:


> Update. I did sell the sickly pony at a slaughter yard. He only went for 180. Yah.......he didnt go to slaughter tho....i don't think. I had no other choice. I had to get rid of him.


Euthanazia would have been an excellent option.


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## county

Excellent to who? While its certainly an option its not always excellaent to everyone. All that matters is what the owner wants to do.


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## DarkChylde

Why, to the horse, of course. (Just had a MAJOR Mister Ed flashback just then....):lol: 

ALot better than being shot in the head numerous times, bled while you are paralyzed, (and I won't even start with the transport). That kind of thing. No dyin is easy, but there are certainly ways to make it MORE horrible, like being bled alive.....:-(


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## county

I saw nothing to make me think the horse was shot in the head several times where did you see that? I've worked in slaughter over 40 years many on kill floors and have never once saw any animal shot several times. I also drive livestock to slaughter and see nothing inhumane about that. Bleed out alive? Fed. law prohibits bleeding out live animals but the heart does still need to be beating to pump out the blood properly. But just because a heart is beating doesn't mean the animal is alive. I've seen pig hearts keep beating for hours even after their out of the animal.


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## .Delete.

Did i say he sold to slaughter? No. Plus we cannot afford putting him to sleep. There was no reason to anyways. He was getting better. I sold him because i cannot afford him, simple as that


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## DarkChylde

I have been to the Dallas Crown plant in my youth, and I personally saw a horse shot more than once. The head is not restrained, and many horses are tryin to duck it. I personally watched about 3 horses being slaughtered once. My best friend dated a guy workin there.

Having dropped outta med school and recently gotten back in, I can tell you if the heart is beating, then blood is still getting to the brain, and they can still feel pain. 

I could also post a video showin it as well, but with kids on this forum I don't want to. But if anyone wants to see it for proof, I will pm it to you. It is part of some graphic footage taken of the process of slaughtered horses, but it _is_ graphic.


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## .Delete.

There are always going to be a bad one in the bunch. But in the case of slaughter horses there are alot of bad ones. But then again there are alot of good ones, that are more human then most, that are legal.


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## Kincsem

The brain controls automatic functions such as heartbeat and breathing. The animal is alive if the heart is still beating. It may be unconscious but it is not dead. The animal does not need to be bled out by the beating of its heart. If the animal is alive it could regain consciousness during slaughter. I ate meat from a carcass that was not bled out at all(a bull killed by another bull) and it had no more blood than anything from the supermarket. Deer are not bled out while their heart is beating and lots of people eat deer meat. Blood becomes gravy when cooked and some people like gravy. In England people make blood pudding from pigs blood. If the animal was decapitated immediately after stunning it would not suffer the way some animals have and when it was hoisted would bleed out better because both veins and arteries in the neck would be completely severed. Many times when an animal is stuck it is done poorly and the animal bleeds out slowly and is still very much alive when skinned and dismembered. With pigs they are scalded to death or drowned in the hot water bath used to loosen their hair.


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## county

I've seen cattle shot more then once also and have horses also, define numerous times. And actually according to USDA rules livestock does have to be bled out by the heart beating in commercial slaughter plants. And in the U.S. we no longer scald hogs we skin them in commercial plants.


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## Kincsem

The humane slaughter act says animals are supposed to be rendered unconscious with one blow. Every time an animal is hit repeatedly violates this law. If the USDA requires bleeding out alive then people need to petition for a change in slaughter methods because there is no justifiable reason for any such rule. It has led to inhumane slaughter which is according to law illegal.


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## county

Then call the cops. And the USDA does not require bleeding out alive they require the heart to be beating. Just because the heart is beating doesn't mean their legally alive man nor beast. But tell me with 300,000,000 people in the U.S. the vast majority eating meat and millions of animals that are slaughtered " exactly " how would you do it and meet demand?


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## DarkChylde

Like I said, medically speaking, the blood carries oxygen to the brain via the heart. If the heart is beating, then there blood going to the brain. If rhere is blood going to the brain, the brain is recieving oxygen, and that creates brain activity, so from the most rudementary of medical and scientific standpoints a beating heart means an animal (or humans, if they were assembly line slaughtered and butchered) can still feel pain. 

I even looked it up in one of my nursing books. 

As far as calling the cops, we all know that the 'cops' aren't the ones with that jurisdiction anyhow, there are plant inspectors that are 'supposed' to be doin that job, but since it is the slaughter house and not the horses that put money in the inspectors pocket we can be sure of a bias. 

Little perspective here, and a little courtesy wouldn't hurt either.


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## county

I saw nothing that was discouretious, I asked my daughter who is an RN if just because the heart is beating means someone is alive and she says no not at all. Slaughter horses do not put money in an inspectors pocket they get paid regardless.


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## DarkChylde

You never know when you are being discorteous. But I ain't getting into that with you, everyone knows how it is.

And she and my nursing instructor can argue it out. I also called, and she said yes, there would be a 80-something percent of brain activity with a beating heart reguardless of the bolt (I explained the WHOLE thing to her) and that conciousness would also be there with the brain activity. 

But since neither one are here, it will be up to the others to research for themselves. I mita dropped out when I was younger, but that is what I learned and what my nursing instructor told me, and she is DA BEST, very old school.


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## Kincsem

If the heart is beating they are alive unless a machine is doing their breathing and making their heart beat for them. That is a fact. You ask any doctor if a persons heart is beating without the aid of machinery if that person is alive. If he isn't alive they can take him out and bury him while his heart is still beating. No heart beat or breathing was used to determine whether a person or animal was dead but now they use brain death which means that there is no longer any brain activity including automatic functions controlled by the brain stem(ie heart beat and breathing). No brain activity means no heart beat or breathing.


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## county

Well either way its not going to change USDA regulations. I didn't say anyone should get into anything with anybody. I do agree though some people don't know when their being discourtious they do like to accuse others though.


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## DarkChylde

Well, while the bill hasn't been made into law yet, when it does at least one USDA regulation will have been changed. 

So many people were saying that slaughter should be changed to be made more humane, and while I never fought that fight I have watched my friends wage it, that was esactly what they did try to do at first. But PETA haters and others only ridiculed and berated anyone who DID try to change the way ALL animals are slaughtered. But while outlawing ALL slaughter wudda messed up the entire food supply for the country (something I think even animal rights advocates aren't willing to tackle) the slaughter of horses ISN"T part of the AMERICAN food supply, so since it CUDDN'T be changed to be made more humane, the bill to ban horse slaughter FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION was created. The bill doesn't mean you can't take a horse to a slaughter house to be slaughtered. It doesn't mean if you do cops will come and arrest you. It DOES mean you won't be PAID to take your horse to slaughter, and that the meat will not be inspected for human consumption. But the bill hasn't been made law (YET) but perhaps it could usher in a change for ALL slaughtered food animals, and that would be a good thing......


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## county

I'm pro slaughter and have fought very hard to get changes made over the years. Personally I don't see a fed. ban ever happening. The Senate has never given any indication they will ever vote on the bill in any way. Bills have died on the Senate floor in the past concerning horse slaughter I think this one will also. The Senate likes to leave things to the states if possable and banning horses going to Can. and Mex. according to the legal experts would violate the NAFTA agreement we have with those countries. One thing the Senate hates is to have something challenged in court as soon as they pass it. Especially something that the vast majority could care less about.


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## DarkChylde

The present bill banning slaughter has (FINALLY) passed both House and Senate, it passed in the Senate in Setember, I think it was. I can post the HSUS link if you like..... Now, if the president vetos it, it will go thru again, and it has had so much support in the past that the new appointments that have come and are coming with the new administration will prolly give it even more support IF it has to go thru the second time. Up until this year it never made it past the Senate and we had to start all over again the next year.

It seems odd to me that you have fought for more humane slaughter in the past, County, seeing as you have expressed that you do not see anything inhumane about it as it stands now. Color me confused.


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## county

Yes I'd love to see you post the bill banning slaughter horses from going to Can. and Mex. seeing as how I was just at a meeting about it last week working against it.

The past and the present are two totally different times but I beleive you when you say your confused.


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## Vidaloco

Please post within the guidelines of our conscientious etiquette policy. Please refrain from personal attacks.


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## county

Who made a personal attack?


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## DarkChylde

I was saying I was confused that you say you have fought to change slaughter, when you have said that you consider slaughter humane. 

I was incorrect about one thing, I thought it had passed the Senate when actually it had just gotten on the Senate's calendar. But it is in the system, now, we had failed to even get it on the calendar before.(I had it mixed up with some other legislatin that had passed in September.) But I did know that at least we don't hafta start all over again.



Here was the lastest on the S. 311 bill.....

*Congressional Legislation Details* *American Horse Slaughter Prevention Act - to end horse slaughter in the US and prohibit the export of horses for the same purpose.*
Bill # S.311







*Status: *
01/17/2007: Read twice and referred to the Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation. 
04/25/2007: Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation. Ordered to be reported without amendment favorably. 
11/14/2007: Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation. Reported by Senator Inouye without amendment. With written report No. 110-229. 
11/14/2007: Placed on Senate Legislative Calendar under General Orders. Calendar No. 488. 

*Committee/Subcommittee Activity:* 
Commerce, Science and Transportation: Referral

*Amendment(s):*
***NONE*** 


As you can see, the bill was placed on the Senate Calendar in November. This was what we had failed to do the previous year.


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## county

Like I said I knew it had never been voted on let alone passed. And yes I think slaughter is humane that doesn't mean I haven't fought for changes in the past. Theres a horse slaughter transport owner that was just fined $160,000 by the USDA this wekk. Very very good thing if laws are broken they should be enforced and fines given. That hardly means we should ban or make illegal anything thats had a law broken if we did virtually everything would be illegal.


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## DarkChylde

As far as I know this bill isn't about 'everything', its about horse slaughter for human consumption. And again, it doesn't make taking a horse to a slaughter plant illegal, only the money part would be affected. But that is where the REAL issues lie. While hiding behind everything from the welfare of neglected horses to nobel pursuits of keeping everything and 'all' legal so no one feels supressed, (tho I would hope even that ideal would have SOME boundries) the truth is the main reason to keep slaughter legal is too protect the market and the industry, it really just boils down to money. I can't blame anyone for wanting to protect thier investment, but as it is the market and industry is benefitting from the mass of horses, and that slaughter not only takes 'care' of the problem of overpopulation and overbreeding, but give in even MORE money to the industry and markets when it does so. It is all about the money, it always has been, and that money is paid for by the blood of the horses. The industry wouldn't make near the money it does if it wasn't for the over surplus of horses, (more owners, more papers, more registry fees, more tack produced, more feed produced, more vaccines and fly control produced, more slaughter, more accessiblity of horse meat to countries that cuddn't supply thier own appetite for it by themselves, and need I even mention PMU?) so the industry and anyone who is more concerned for it will support slaughter as it helps to keep the money big and the industry well paid. 

We have an overpopulation of horses that no one has concerned themselves with for far too long, cuz slaughter kept them outta the way, and fed the industry millions in the background. While laws to regulate breeding are murky waters in a free trade society, laws to ban the slaughter of horses was within reach. Let us hope we will finally step up to bat and deal with the issue we have allowed slaughter to 'take care of' like some mafia boss......


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## county

I think my point went way over your head. I'll try again my meaning is why would you ban an industry because someone breaks a law that deals with it? If you did virtually all things would be illegal. And of course its about money name me a business thats not. Ask people the number one reason they have a business and or a job and the #1 answer is to make money theres nothing at all unusual or wrong with that that I can see. Would you work your job for free? Let your bills go unpaid?


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## county

If and when the Fed. Gov. passes a law banning the export of slaughter horses I certainly hope its not the one before them now. I hope they actually put some thought behind it and don't pass some " feel good " bill like the House has done over and over. The state of Ca. has a law banning slaughter horses from leaving the state and everyone involved says its a joke and meaningless. The proposed bill sitting in the Senate is no different. All anyone has to do is sell the horses to a rancher or farmer thats a Can. citizen and what he does with them is none of the U.S. Gov. business. 

And under the bill proposed all anyone here has to do is get a coggins and health paper on a horse and it can cross into Can. Unless the U.S. wants to ban the export of all horses their not going to slow down the number of U.S. horses going to slaughter out of country with the bill being proposed. 70% of the horses from here have coggins and health papers now its no big deal to get them on the rest.


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## LadyAshen

County, I would ban any "industry" that is inhumane. Period. 

There are many other opportunities to make money that is not based upon the pain of horses. 

Why are you such a advocate for slaughter? Do you make money based on it? You must have a reason for such a die hard stance that you are working so hard for it. Are you a big breeder who wants to see his horses go for as much as possible? Do you work or own slaughter plants?

If you are any of the above or even related to any of the above, tell me a good reason why we should respect your opinion more than any of the others that are opposite of yours.

And please be sweet in your response if you give one.


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## county

I also would ban any industry thats inhumane fact is I don't personally know anyone that wouldn't.

Why do I support slaughter? Never heard a logical reason not to. Why should you respect my opinion? Why not? I respect those who don't want to slaughter their horse or sell them to slaughter. Never once in my life have I told anyone they should. I can't say I've been given the same respect that I can in return.

Not sure what you mean about being sweet in my response? I've seen nothing rude about any of them.


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## LadyAshen

county said:


> I also would ban any industry thats inhumane fact is I don't personally know anyone that wouldn't.
> 
> Why do I support slaughter? Never heard a logical reason not to. Why should you respect my opinion? Why not? I respect those who don't want to slaughter their horse or sell them to slaughter. Never once in my life have I told anyone they should. I can't say I've been given the same respect that I can in return.
> 
> Not sure what you mean about being sweet in my response? I've seen nothing rude about any of them.


That is what is so scary.


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## county

No idea what you mean?


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## LadyAshen

I know.........


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## county

To me whats scary is posters like yourself that go out of their way to pick a fight and posts things with no basis then don't explain them.


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## LadyAshen

No one is picking a fight.

Everything I have said is based on what YOU have said. I am sorry you think that way.


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## county

Like I said, no idea what you mean and obviously your intent was never that I should.


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## farmpony84

the horse has to be alive to be sent to slaughter...


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## county

Very true per USDA regs same as all species of livestock.


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## farmpony84

sorry... I should have qouted. somewhere I read someone euthanized their horse and sent it to slaughter. It had to have been sent to slaughter alive.

I hate that any horse has to be euthanized but I don't think it would have been bad to go to a US facility that was correctly run IF the horse needed to be put down. Alot of states have laws against barrying (can't spell) horses on private land. I know we arent supposed to here but when mine go, they will be laid to rest on my land. But I have the land to do it and I have the place and the means to take care of mine. Right now I have 1 that is completely not rideable. not everyone can afford to maintain an animal that is not sound to ride. And truthfully, alot of rescue organizations do not take good care of the animals that htey have so sometimes it's a misconception to think you've done a favor to your horse by sending it to an organization unless you positively know the place.

I personally will never send MY horses to slaughter. But would I hate my neighbor for doing it? No... I have a neighbor actually that put a horse down and then had to PAY 350 bucks to have it hauled away....

When I lived in Germany one of our lesson horses had to be put down. I was devastated about it, they sold him to the local butcher and that money was put towards the lesson program. The german students weren't upset over the butcher part because that's the way it go's there. they were upset over the loss of the horse but I geuss they do things differently.

It's a personal decision. I think the loss of the last 2 slaughter houses in the US may have hurt the horse industry. Just my thoughts.... 

I also read about someone saying that putting a bullet between the eyes is quick, easy and painless. That is only true if it's done correctly. I've seen it done wrong. You HAVE to hit the right spot. It's ugly when you don't. I've seen it. But honostly, there is nothing pretty about putting a horse down....

I love my horses... this subject makes me sad!!!!


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## county

I love all my livestock be it the horses, cows, pigs, or sheep but I don't place one species as more worthy then the next to me their all equal. I place certain ones above others in their species same as I do people. Some animals are pets and live out their life here be it horse, cow, pig, what ever. Its no different then some people I become very close to and others I don't. I treat my freinds very differently then someone I barely know.

BTW shooting an animal to put it to death is very efficent but as you say you have to know what your doing same as anything else.


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## DarkChylde

THe bill wouldn't ban you taking a horse to a slaughterhouse to be slaughtered, I'm afraid. It would only ban the slaughterhouse from paying the inspector to inspect the meat for human consumption, and you would undoubtably not get any money from it. Another version of the bill deals with the border problem, which is far thornier as it deals with the cooperation of other countries. 

But it would not make it against the law to take a horse to a rendering plant. Just affect the money part. You would still be able to take a horse to a slaughterhouse and have him slaughtered.


Subject makes me sad, too. Very sad. Most sad of all is the horses that pay every minute for the human's mismanagement...... :^(


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## county

I do beleive your way outdated on your bans. The one prohibiting USDA inspectors from being paid with tax dollars at horse slaughter plants is old news from a couple years ago. It backfired when the slaughter plants paid the inspectors themselves. No law was broken and anti groups got " exactly " what they asked for in no tax dollars paid the inspectors. What they hoped for was it would force the U.S. plants to close. That happened afterwards in totally different cases.

As it stands now there are no equine slaughter houses in the U.S. operating except Dallas Crown which does about 200 head a month for zoo animal food contracts.


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## DarkChylde

No, I know that HR 503, S 311 is now the Equine Prevention Cruelty Act, HR 6598, but it is still the same bill with some new provisions added.

It has gone thru some revisions, and that has made tracking it difficult. Every revision creates a different fluctation on the timeline of it's becoming a bill.


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## LadyAshen

LadyAshen said:


> Why are you such a advocate for slaughter? Do you make money based on it? You must have a reason for such a die hard stance that you are working so hard for it. Are you a big breeder who wants to see his horses go for as much as possible? Do you work or own slaughter plants?


County. Is there any reason you have not answered these questions? What is YOUR stake in this matter?


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## Kentucky

I believe he is a cattle man and believes there must be a end place for every animal to go. This is based on his other replies on several threads.


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## LadyAshen

Thank you Kentucky!!


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## county

I did answer it " I see no logical reason to ban it ".


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## LadyAshen

And for that specious reason you work so hard on getting slaughter back?

Come on.........tell us the "real" reason.


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## my2geldings

county said:


> I saw nothing to make me think the horse was shot in the head several times where did you see that? I've worked in slaughter over 40 years many on kill floors and have never once saw any animal shot several times. I also drive livestock to slaughter and see nothing inhumane about that. Bleed out alive? Fed. law prohibits bleeding out live animals but the heart does still need to be beating to pump out the blood properly. But just because a heart is beating doesn't mean the animal is alive. I've seen pig hearts keep beating for hours even after their out of the animal.


I will gladly send you videos of some of the ways they use to kill horses in slaughter. Feel free to pm me.


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## my2geldings

Because of the over breeding, the problem with slaughter is that it is the only real way for people to "get rid of a horse" without paying $200.00 for the injection thru a vet. For some people I can see that it is a cost that they cannot cover BUT to me (no flaming people) the only proper way of putting down a horse. Now for those of you who are for or have nothing against slaughter please feel free to pm me and I will send you videos of things that are done all over the continent. That will give you food for thought.

Wish there was a way for people to put a horse down themselves that is quiet and 100% successful each time (without shooting or attempting it) without the cost of the vet being there. A lot of horses would be put down at home instead of being sent to the meat packers.


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## county

The reason I think slaughter should be back? See the reason I stated twice already.

Videos of horse slaughter. Ive seen some from both sides of the issue why should a person beleive one over another their very different. Also been in horse slaughter plants and worked in other species. Saw videos of those that were nothing close to normal daily routine of todays operations.

Oh and BTW Kentucky yes I beleive after death every animal should have an end place to go, feel that way about people also. I've bought a plot for me to go after my death. Very very normal for most people to think man and beast should have an end place to go.


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## my2geldings

county said:


> The reason I think slaughter should be back? See the reason I stated twice already.
> 
> Videos of horse slaughter. Ive seen some from both sides of the issue why should a person beleive one over another their very different. Also been in horse slaughter plants and worked in other species. Saw videos of those that were nothing close to normal daily routine of todays operations.
> 
> Oh and BTW Kentucky yes I beleive after death every animal should have an end place to go, feel that way about people also. I've bought a plot for me to go after my death. Very very normal for most people to think man and beast should have an end place to go.


It's not a question of believing. Have you been to a plant before?


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## county

Like I already said yes I've been to plants before. Worked in other species also and hauled livestock to all. Do things sometimes go wrong on kill floors? Of course they do slaughter is hardly a perfect sceince never has been and never will be. But bottom line is people eat meat always have and always will. The process today far exceeds that of 20 years ago. I feel the process 20 years from now will far exceed that of today. But ban an industry because its not perfect? Sorry no logic behind that and we'd have to ban virtually everything.


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## my2geldings

county said:


> Like I already said yes I've been to plants before. Worked in other species also and hauled livestock to all. Do things sometimes go wrong on kill floors? Of course they do slaughter is hardly a perfect sceince never has been and never will be. But bottom line is people eat meat always have and always will. The process today far exceeds that of 20 years ago. I feel the process 20 years from now will far exceed that of today. But ban an industry because its not perfect? Sorry no logic behind that and we'd have to ban virtually everything.


Fair enough, you are entitled to your view.


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## county

Bingo!!!! Thats what I've been saying all along. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I've never once tryed to tell someone what they should do with their horse. I can't say I've been given the same back from a number of people.


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## BluMagic

WHOA! 

I had no idea this thread was still going.


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## IronRoseFarms

Boy this has been a long read... and I can already feel the heat of the oncoming reply's to my opinion!

I know there are some horrible things that have been recorded in the slaughter of horses and many other animals as well. The problem is we don't have a good solution or replacement for the slaughter system. 

So many people are selling off horses (or trying) that are just not good for anything but turning high grade feed into low grade fertilizer. The further we get from have a viable way to remove dangerous or beyond recovery horses from the market the worse the situation will become. Right now I can drive you to multiple horse owners in my area who have bought horses that was promised to be good, quality, trained (or retrainable) horses; only to find out that they are dangerous to the people who have to feed them and or to other animals as well. These horses have then been turned out to a pasture where stalions and mares are run together day in and day out. Now we have foals from these horses that no one can (or will) bring to a level of usefulness to justify the cost of their up keep along with the parents.

Many horses have been sent to slaughter not because they aren't good horses, but because they can no longer be sold reputably because they are "hidden" among those who are dangerous and unkeepable in the overall market. Wouldn't it be nice that if you went to an auction and was in the market for a horse you would be able to trust the word of the seller? Sadly you pretty much have to assume the worse and that means a horse that is likely to be sent to a sad existance or an even sadder end.

Killing is never clean and easy, it is and should be offensive. When killing an animal is no longer offensive our horses safety and well being will be the least of our concern as we will be viewed in the same light (some might say it is already happening). However, part of being responsible as a horse owner should be that we could make the hard decision to by what ever means necessary take a horse that is dangerous or beyond recovery out of the cull. It is the only way we can be humane to all the good horses we care so much about...

James


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## Kentucky

Sir that is well said and it very fair and balance compare to the statements of some on this thread on both sides of the dabate.


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## Kincsem

A death can be easy and pain free for the animal and doing anything that causes pain and suffering for many like slaughter does is not acceptable. Unless and until all slaughter of all animals is quick and without suffering as the law requires then every compassionate caring person will be against it. Slaughter is not a solution. Humane euthanasia and consumer protection laws that allow people to get their money back on horses that are not as represented are better solutions. Breeding horses irresponsibly should be penalized not rewarded with an easy out (dollars in your pocket instead of out of your pocket) solution. Those who do the wrong thing should have to pay not be bailed out by slaughter dollars. Why should horses suffer because people do wrong? The humane slaughter act allows gunshot and also allows a sharp instrument that severs the cartoid arteries instantaneously and simultaneously which is what a guillotine does. Slaughter and transport could be much more humane if people would stop making excuses and start doing what is right. Almost all of the horses that go to slaughter are good well behaved animals that are not lame or old or dangerous and did nothing wrong. Many were stolen either outright or thru fraud after kill buyers claimed they would get good homes. They deserve a painless stress free end not slaughter.


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## county

I'm compassionate and caring and I'm not against slaughter or eating meat. You can accuse others of not being by your standards but fact is that really has no meaning except to yourself. Breeding isn't the " wrong " thing its something some do and others don't neither is illegal and hopefully never will be its called a personal choice.

Almost all the livestock of every species that go to slaughter did nothing wrong but the vast majority of people in the world eat meat and thats not changing any time soon that I can see. Yes some livestock thats stolen goes to slaughter compared to cattle horses aren't even a drop in the bucket and I'm not in favor of banning cattle slaughter for that reason either.

But if someone doesn't want to eat horse or any species of livestock more power to them I don't know anyone that wants to force them to do so.


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## Kincsem

The law states that cruelty in slaughter is illegal.It is not just "my standard". It is the standard adopted by the people of this country to prevent cruelty and it is being ignored. The law is not being obeyed and animals are suffering. Being in favor of cruelty is being in favor of crime. There is cruelty in the slaughterhouse and outside of it and in transport and all of it is illegal. There have to be changes in how animals are transported,raised,and slaughtered so that there is no suffering anywhere. Horse slaughterhouses are in busness to put prime meat on dinner tables in other countries which means young fat healthy horses most of whom have no dangerus habits. There was a horse slaughterhouse in Virginia when I moved to this state and many horses with no behavior problems wound up there. Young healthy horses with no meanness and horses who had worked for people and did what they were asked like the big draft horse who went still young and fat and sound. The kill buyer brought in about 100 halters one time and each one represented a dead horse that she had bought. Horses are usually raised to work for people. They are ridden or driven or carry packs. While I am against cruelty to all creatures I do not see them slaving away for people and doing their bidding like horses. In other countries camels and cattle do work but not here except for dairy cows who let people take their milk. The New York police and some other people know something about gratitude and their horses are pensioned to green pastures when their working days are over. They do not have to worry about having a decent retirement. In India where cattle work for people it is illegal to kill them for meat just like it is illegal to kill horses here.


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## county

I know no one in favor of cruelty and never have. I also see no cruelty in slaughter houses if you do by all means it should be reported to the USDA they are in charge of over seeing that. Last week they fined an equine transporter $160,000 for violations which is certainly a good thing no one wants laws broken concerning livestock transport that I know.

Young healthy livestock of all species is slaughtered for meat people don't want to eat old sick crippled ones. The taste of young fat ones is much better and theres very little profit in slaughtering the old crippled ones. And livestock of all species is used to help man, they have the same feelings, they have the same needs etc. as the horse I can't imagine placing one as more important or worthy a species then the next. And yes very common for some to not slaughter some thats all of our right to do so. I have had pet horses, cows, pigs, even a rooster that I'd never butcher they are buried in our farms pet cemetary. To me animals are like people I know 1000's of them, some are very good freinds some I barely know, some I don't care for. I would never treat them exactly the same.


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## IronRoseFarms

Kencsem, I'm not trying to pick here but I have some concern in your responses and maybe I'm just mis-understanding.



> A death can be easy and pain free for the animal and doing anything that causes pain and suffering for many like slaughter does is not acceptable. Unless and until all slaughter of all animals is quick and without suffering as the law requires then every compassionate caring person will be against it. Slaughter is not a solution.


I have to question as to what method you imply is quick and without suffering? As I watch videos produced by animal rights groups I see that it isn't just the killing methods they have a problem with. You yourself talk about transportation being a major part of this, or the "pushing" of animals through a system of chutes and alleyways. Do you really think the death would be better if we stood the horse in the middle of a bright green pasture on a sunny day and shot it with a high powered rifle? I don't believe any "method" of kill will ever be acceptable, like I said killing should be offensive... when it is no longer offensive we humans are in for some scary times (I believe this is already true).



> It is the standard adopted by the people of this country to prevent cruelty and it is being ignored.


If only this was true, unfortunately our laws are far more dictated now by the special interest groups than by the citizens as a whole. I would think that if citizens as a whole was this concerned about the cruelty that you speak of, it wouldn't happen in the first place, or when it did it would be the exception not the daily news...

The fact that we now have removed the slaughter industry really makes a bad situation worse. Now more and more good horses are being mistreated because there is no outlet for the bad horses to go.

I'll close with this, you mention fast painless and bullets, have you ever hunted large game? Even an expert marksman at close range that has hunted deer, will tell you that there is no guarantee of a fast painless death. You mention euthanasia, ask anyone who has witnessed multiple human death penalties carried out, they are not all fast, or painless...

Death is and should never be easy, when it is we are in trouble... but as the owners of animals that have the potential of being dangerous to man and beast we had better be willing to make a hard choice or all we are doing is feeding an ever increasing problem of making the horse population less and less valuable as the friends most of us see them as...
James


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## Kincsem

Horses from the US are now going to slaughterhouses in Canada and Mexico. Horse slaughter has not ended. Death can be easy and painless. That is what euthanasia means. I have personally held dogs for euthanasia and I know for a fact if the veterinarian is competent it is quick and painless. A horse can be humanely euthanized with sodium pentobarbitol just like a dog can. The best way for a horse to go is being held by the person who loves them and receiving an overdose of sodium pentobarbitol which has also been used to anesthetize an animal for surgery. Death is supposed to be easy. When death is difficult and painful then we are in trouble. A vet named Dr. Ruth James DVM wrote a book called "How to be your own veterinarian sometimes" and in it she says if no vet is available and the horse needs to be put down a bullet placed halfway between the eyes and the ears in the center of the forehead with the gun held about an inch or so away is humane. I am against hunting. County you think all animals are the same so I guess you eat dogs and cats and human animals also. What do they taste like? Do you think we should ship all the unwanted dogs and cats in the US to slaughter in Asia? How about humans to cannibals in Guinea.


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## county

I don't beleive I said all animals are the same if so thats not what I meant. I said all livestock is the same, pet animals are not livestock regardless of species which I also said. Theres a factor called ": common sense " that also needs to come into play.

Do I think we should ship unwanted cats and dogs to Asia? If they want to use them for food rather then kill them off by the millions just to get rid of them like we do now more power to them. But dogs that are raised for food animals are not at all what we raise for pet animals. Very different type and fed differanet. When in Korea I ate dog and went to a couple farms where they raised them as food not at all the same.


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## county

BTW before anyone could ship dogs and cats for food to Asia or anywhere the current laws would have to be changed. Right now thats illegal and I do not support breaking any laws concerning them. Horse slaughter how ever is not ilegal either here or to ship them out of country we send a large number from here in Mn. to Can. for example since were so close to there. Legal things I support illegal ones I don't. Very basic and goes back to the common sense thing I mentioned.


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## IronRoseFarms

Euthanasia defined by Meriam Webster:*:* the act or practice of killing or permitting the death of hopelessly sick or injured individuals (as persons or domestic animals) in a relatively painless way for reasons of mercy.


Relatively painless...



> Death is supposed to be easy.


Can you please indicate where you have come up with this as being a fact? I don't believe you could possibly be living in the same world I do. Some animals and people get a easy out, fall asleep and pass. But I am here to state that the majority of people and animals don't die in complete easy peace. 

Since you are suggesting that an overdose is painless, I went and did some research, I found that the overdose of sodium pentobarbitol can cause pain and in some cases cause the patient to be rendered motionless yet fully aware of their surroundings without being able to move or respond. I hardly find that to be a easy death. 

If you could also make it clear as to how you find it humane and easy to place a bullet between the eyes and ears. I would not wish that type of death for myself...



> The best way for a horse to go is being held by the person who loves them


and now you have identified one of the problems... a horse that is a danger to the persons who feed it is not going to be loved the way your horse is. A horse who is raised as meat is not going to be loved like your horse is. A horse who is loved will not be the horse that is abused. A horse that is loved is seldom the one being ushered into a slaughter house regardless of the location.

It is fine to try and make conditions better for all living creatures, but the idea that every animal will have an easy death is simply not realistic. Read the newspaper, humans can't even treat each other with enough respect to support this idea. 

James


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## LadyAshen

IronRoseFarms said:


> Euthanasia defined by Meriam Webster:*:* the act or practice of killing or permitting the death of hopelessly sick or injured individuals (as persons or domestic animals) in a relatively painless way for reasons of mercy.
> 
> Relatively painless...
> 
> Can you please indicate where you have come up with this as being a fact? I don't believe you could possibly be living in the same world I do. Some animals and people get a easy out, fall asleep and pass. But I am here to state that the majority of people and animals don't die in complete easy peace.
> 
> Since you are suggesting that an overdose is painless, I went and did some research, I found that the overdose of sodium pentobarbitol can cause pain and in some cases cause the patient to be rendered motionless yet fully aware of their surroundings without being able to move or respond. I hardly find that to be a easy death.
> 
> If you could also make it clear as to how you find it humane and easy to place a bullet between the eyes and ears. I would not wish that type of death for myself...
> and now you have identified one of the problems... a horse that is a danger to the persons who feed it is not going to be loved the way your horse is. A horse who is raised as meat is not going to be loved like your horse is. A horse who is loved will not be the horse that is abused. A horse that is loved is seldom the one being ushered into a slaughter house regardless of the location.
> 
> It is fine to try and make conditions better for all living creatures, but the idea that every animal will have an easy death is simply not realistic. Read the newspaper, humans can't even treat each other with enough respect to support this idea.
> 
> James


I can't argue with you on this one! You are so very right!


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## NewHeart

I am just curious, I would like to know how people (pro and anti horse slaughter) feel about cattle going slaughter? In my opinion, a life is a life and should be valued the same as another. Meaning, horses or cows, or chickens or whatever, they all have a life and it is valuable. I find it interesting that people feel so passionately about a horse going to kill, but no one bats an eye when they are eating a Bigmac or a Whopper (aside from vegetarians)? They all die, and feel pain, so what makes the life a horse, so much more relevant than the life of any other species? I'm asking, solely out of curiosity to the thought process here?


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## horseMAD

I would never send my horse to slaughter!! Rather put it down!!


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## Vidaloco

NewHeart said:


> I am just curious, I would like to know how people (pro and anti horse slaughter) feel about cattle going slaughter? In my opinion, a life is a life and should be valued the same as another. Meaning, horses or cows, or chickens or whatever, they all have a life and it is valuable. I find it interesting that people feel so passionately about a horse going to kill, but no one bats an eye when they are eating a Bigmac or a Whopper (aside from vegetarians)? They all die, and feel pain, so what makes the life a horse, so much more relevant than the life of any other species? I'm asking, solely out of curiosity to the thought process here?


I think it comes from the thought of a horse as a companion animal rather than just livestock. I understand your logic, although I am not a vegetarian. It would be like asking any American meat eater or not to slaughter a dog or cat for human consumption. Most of us here think of our horses as pets or even members of the family.


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## county

I agree alot of people look at their horse as a pet I know I do with two of mine. But alot of people look at them as livestock. I really have never figured out the uproar if someone looks at theirs as a pet don't sell it for slaughter. If you don't look at it as a pet and want to sell it then do so. I think the problem is when someone wants to control what others do.


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## NewHeart

I completely agree with County. There are a lot of people who view horses and livestock (which is what they are) and business. If you think of your horse as a pet or friend, which I am guilty as of well, then great, but a lot of people don't. 

Regarding to what Horsemad said, of course you would not personally send your horse off to slaughter, the fact of the matter is a lot of private owners don't. A lot of horses that go to slaughter come from auction houses and horse traders/dealers. The difference in logic here is that you (and I) view our horses as friends and pets. To a trader and an auction house they are just a dollar amount and a number, which yes is sad, but a real reality. They do not care what their name is etc. Yes, when it is my horses time to go in life, I will be euthanizing her through my vet. When someone sells a horse, they give up the rights to it. Where it goes after that is most times out of our control. The best you can do is if you potentially think your horse could end up with a trader or in an auction house then don't sell them to that person, or don't sell them period. There is nothing wrong with being passionate, but we all need to remember to look at the larger picture here.


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## Kincsem

Sodium pentobarbitol does not ever cause pain. You have been misinformed. It has been used to render animals and people unconscious for surgery. They are not aware of anything. An overdose is always quick and painless. If the animal is given too little then they will fall asleep and then can be given an additional injection. You must be confusing it with curare or something similar. The vet checks to be sure there is no longer any heartbeat. Most so called dangerous horses were made that way by people and with proper training and handling by people who know what they are doing can be turned around and be good horses. Since those people with the "dangerous" horses can still sell them to slaughter in some other country like Canada why are they letting them breed? Horses in this country are not raised for meat. Just because not everyone has a painless death is not any excuse to force other creatures to endure a painful end. Humane slaughter and transport is law and cruelty is illegal but laws are not being enforced. www.hfa.org details some of the horrors endured by innocent animals. Why should'nt horses who have worked for people and put money in peoples pockets get the decent treatment they deserve? Some horses have won people many thousands of dollars,some have pulled wagons or carried people or packs for many years. Why should they be forced to endure the suffering of inhumane transport and slaughter? They deserve gratitude. They deserve green pastures and TLC. Do people who work their butts off for others deserve to be killed when they are too old to work or get injured? It is immoral to toss them aside like trash or wring every last dollar out of their poor innocent helpless bodies. If a cow works for someone in India for many years they do not kill and eat it when it gets too old or sick to work. I guess they have better morals than some people here. I believe that most horses have earned or have the potential to earn lifelong care and should be treated like the partners in work,in life,in recreation,in love that they are and in some cases they are providing people with all of their income. If someone supports you and provides for you all of the income you need through their labor do you think it is OK to send them off to be killed when they cannot support you anymore? All animals deserve a decent life and a humane end but some have earned the right to retire just like people and some others would if given a chance.


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## county

Which people here are you saying don't have good morals?

Do I think my cattle, horses, hogs, and sheep should go to slaughter after their done making money here? In a word yes. If I killed and buried them all here I'd need 1000's of graves and lose a big part of our income.

BTW we show all our livestock and have had cattle that won more then some horses.


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## county

BTW in regards to your question does anyone think its OK to kill someone thats supported another. No I don't, its illegal to kill people for any reason its not illegal to kill and eat livestock. I think most people can put the two situations apart from each other with even a little common sense.


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## onetoomany

Kincsem- Cows are very, very rarely killed and eaten in India at all. In fact most of the nation, with the exception of two provinces, is under a slaughter ban. The slaughter bans in India are based off religion not morals so to say they have "better morals" than some people on this board seems a little ignorant. There are practices in India that I'm sure you would find immoral: the caste system, the common but illegal practice of child selling, the continual wars over the rights to the Kashmir province etc. In fact until sometime in the late 12th century (and as late as the 18th century) cows were used in sacrafice. The discontinuation of using cows as sacraficial animals also does seem to have coincided with the emergence and development of agrifulture, although claims along these lines are difficult to prove. How does that sit with your morals? I would continue this discourse on the modern and historical use of cattle in Indian culture but it would be off topic. I am attempting to point out however that your analogy is not apt and your comment on the morals of the people on this board is offensive. If you would like to make your analogy apt I would be delighted to hear about this religion you apparently practice where the horse is revered with a sacredness that is comprable to the religous light that most Indians hold the cow.


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## Kincsem

Religion teaches morality. That is its purpose. Religion is supposed to teach people morals which means the difference between right and wrong. Gratitude is not a sin. Greed is a sin. My religion says be grateful to those who have helped you and done right by you. If your religion says care only about yourself and show no concern for those that have served you and suffered for you and worked for you then I cannot share it. The Bible says a good man cares for the life of his beast. I see no difference between gratitude toward another person and gratitude toward a non human animal. I raised cattle for years and they never worked or in many cases never showed any appreciation for the care I gave them at all. I saved their lives and instead of gratitude I got grief. One cow with an injured leg I brought food and water to 3 times a day for 10 days and it is was not a short walk to where she was. After she recuperated later on she got out and led others out also. I pulled calves in the middle of the night more than once. I sacrificed to keep them fed and if the hay delivery was late or not up to their standards they would get out if they could rather than wait. My horses have always been grateful. They wait patiently for their food and do not knock me down or push and shove me like the cows did. I only have 2 old cows now and they are pensioned. I have a 33 year old horse who is as sweet as can be. Some people would have sent her to slaughter when she got old so they could get every dollar out of her they could. If you think that is OK then I guess you do not know what morals are. Legal according to mans law is not always moral. Gods law and mans law are not always the same. The caste system was made illegal in India many years ago because they realized it was immoral. Horses have been partners to people for many centuries and deserve as much reverence as the cows in India and possibly more.


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## onetoomany

Firstly, I would like to say that I have no bones with the stands you take on slaughter. I just wanted to point out what I saw as wrong. Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts. I would never send my horse to slaughter; I intend to keep her until her last day. This does not mean, however, that I am going to condem people that do send their horses to slaughter. I would love to live in a world where the unwanted/unuseable/unhealthy horses get euthed instead of hauled to slaughter but this is not a reality and as such everyone must deal in practicalities.

Secondly, I think it is wrong to speak on cultural matters on which you apparently know nothing about and to accuse people of having poor morals. Lets just keep in mind that morals are very relative. Religion is a very broad catergory and to say that all religions strive to teach morality is a fallacy. Morals deal in the perceptions of right and wrong, and religions do not necessarily set out to teach the lessons of right and wrong. Some may, but not all. Religion is merely a collection of beliefs that acknowledge a greater prescence. Would you say that Satanism teaches morality as you think of it? 

Thirdly, I am sorry if any of my comments about cattle roused feelings of injustice in you and stirred bad memories.

Fourhtly and finally, the US is not the only nation in which laws are broken. It is illegal to discriminate on the basis of race, sex or religion but yet there is still discrimination. The caste system in India has been around before America was even a dream of a dream, somewhere around 3,500 years. Our country hasn't even been around for 300 years and we can't get rid of discrimination. Do you think that India can get rid of the caste system in a mere sixty years?


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## county

You mean to tell me you actually think all cattle are like you describe and all horses? If you do your world is very small.


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## IronRoseFarms

I have read several vetinary and MD statements of the problems in using sodium pentobarbitol, also I have a living relitive who while under sedation for surgery using sodium pentobarbitol can recount everything that occured during her surgery. (She won her case by the way) You will notice that anethesia requires you to sign a release form... there is good reason for that...

I'm in real trouble, I have a cow that my kids ride, she has a name, she will wait at the gate for you, when she has gotten out she comes to the window of the house to see if you'll come out and play (not fun cleaning cow snot off a window)... Oh and she is here for one reason... to breed and produce beef for our freezer. When she is no longer useful I suspect she will also become hamburger.

I would guess that this would bother some folks... and that is ok... however, it all comes down to what her purpose on this earth is... 

If finacial times are good and I could manage to keep that mixed up cow, I might do it... but dollars are still dollars. I have rescued more animals than I can list but keeping animals costs money. I currently have 9 rescued animals on my property, 5 foster animals that others have rescued... and just this week I got laid off from my job... guess what I have to do??? 
I have to make some tough decisions, who stays, who goes... the 5 foster animals leave next week. I have placed calls for many of the others. The animals that are kept will be those that are purposeful... Horse, a couple dogs, cows, sheep. Horse stays because I can and have been using him as transportation. Dogs are security system. Cows and sheep are food. 

When people won't make the hard decisions are when animals get put out to a pasture and are unmanaged, when hard decisions are allowed to be held off animals get abused and starved. Slaughter regardless of method is still better than slow miserable death by starvation that I have personally tried to rescued animals from. Yes sometimes they can be rescued, but not always. I have a grave yard to prove it.

Morals are a hard thing to figure... some of the same folks I know who are so very anti animal cruelty are the same ones who stand up and support human abortion. Something I just can't understand. Morals is not the purpose of religion, religion is a vehichle in the worship of a given diety. Hopefully that diety stands for a set of morals that build civilization and not destroy... but that is also another off topic matter.

James


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## Vidaloco

Just a reminder.... 
Please remember our rules and conscientious etiquette policy's 
Rule #7 in particular "Please respect all members and their beliefs" and "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"


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## amber roo

I would rather die than sell on of my animals to slaughter!


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## county

I would rather eat my animals then die.


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## onetoomany

Haha! Well said county!


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## LadyAshen

I would rather turn cannibal than eat my horse!


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## county

You would choose to murder and eat people over eating a horse? Rather sad to say the least not to mention very illegal. But it does display what I've said all along I've just never heard a logical reason to ban the slaughter of livestock regardless of species. Nor have I ever heard anyone say a person should eat their horse unless they choose to.


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## LadyAshen

At least certain People.


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## county

?????? No idea what you mean?


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## LadyAshen

That's ok. You haven't been able to figure out anything I say even though it is rather simple


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## county

Sounds to me like you never had any intention of people understanding what you have said. Other then you'd rather eat people then your horse I honerstly don't understand the meaning of your lasr few posts which is why I asked. I actually thought you were trying to have a dicussion.


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## LadyAshen

I really can't make it any simpler.


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## county

Then you never wanted your intention understood to begin with.


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## LadyAshen

That is not true, but I can't stop you from believing it. I *TRULY* want you to understand what I said.


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## county

You posted " at least certain people " thats what I don't understand. Certain people what? Certain people you would eat? Certain people have said you shouldn't eat your horse unless you want to? Whos " certain people "?


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## Vidaloco

What part of the reminder above do any of you not understand? Please stay on topic and no personal attacks or this thread will be locked.


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## county

Where " exactly " are the personal attacks? I see nothing that is even close to one, what I do see is a disciussion. If whats on this thread is a personal attack I think someones going out of their way to find one.


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