# When to start canter work on green horse



## FSHjumper (Apr 26, 2011)

Ok I have an 11yr old mare im training, she was a broodmare/pasture puff and has just been started. Ive ridden her 6 times. A few times in the round pen, but its really too small so now that shes been on a few times ive been riding her in the open pasture. Everything is going well, mainly just occasional head tossing if anything, other than that shes is just amazing to ride. My problem is I dont know when to introduce the canter. Ive heard opposite sides of the spectrum. In my experiences, most western riders canter on the first ride-reasoning being they think if you wait then the horse sort of builds up this anticipation for the canter and it just becomes overwhelming and then they have problems. Like a random bucking outburst or something. On the other hand, is a lot more of english riders who wait until theyre going very well under saddle at the walk/trot and get them balanced and muscles built up and establish all the basics before attempting the canter. On my mare I have attempted, unsuccessfully, to canter her. First time was in the round pen, I had a friend on her and I was cueing her from the ground and it took a lot of encouragement to get the few steps I got. I figured it was too tight and waited until I was riding in the pasture. I had a friend on my other mare, who is her pasture mate, and had her canter and was hoping Fairah would follow. I squeezed and encouraged and gave her her head and got light on her back, sat and rolled my hips like when you canter and tried to lift the energy in my body and clucked like crazy. Nothing seemed to work. Just got an unhappy horse with all the pressure I was putting on which then lead to some head tossing and kicking out. Now im thinking maybe really try and get her going well for a month or so at the trot before asking again, or should I put her back in the round pen with some help and get her to canter a few steps consistently to take the edge off? Your thoughts? How long do you wait? what do you do to lead up to it? etc.


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## Monty77 (Aug 8, 2011)

I ride both western and English, and personally I prefer waiting until the horse is 100% comfy with the idea of a rider before I even try a trot, let alone canter. A good first step would be to tack her up, canter her on a lounge line and see how she reacts. From that point I would keep doing that until the jog is a little more solid and then try the lope. Some people will disagree with that and that's fine, people have different ideas, the main thing is that you need to feel comfortable on her before you try anything new.
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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I certainly prefer to have a horse going well at walk and trot before I ask for canter. I want to have my 'stop, go and turn' buttons absolutely spot, and know that the horse is able to perform multiple transitions between and within gaits at walk and trot. Their balance must also be very good at walk and trot, and they MUST be willing to go forward. Once I have this established, I'll just start slipping some short canters in here and there, not making a bit deal of it and only asking when I feel the horse will easily move straight up into the transition with no dramas - aka when absolutely balanced and in front of the leg.

The reason being, is that I do not want to break a horse's confidence by running them onto the forehand and putting them out of balance. Canter can be quite a delicate gait, if a horse is out of balance it is very much apparent in the canter and is very hard to 'fix' while still cantering. The quality of canter is dependant on the quality of the trot ridden before the transition. 
By running the horse out of balance in canter, you end up with a horse that becomes nervous in the canter, will start to 'run away' from the rider under saddle and panic.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

i agree with monty and kayty.but i free lunge my horses in the round pen.i saddle them,tie the lead rope to the horn just enough to where he cant put his head to his knees and look like a saddle bronc,and let him pick up the canter when he is ready.and like kayty said,teach him whoa and such.think about it like this,what good is a run or canter if you cant stop it?


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

on greenies i walk when standing is easy, trot when walking is easy, canter when trotting is easy and gallop when cantering is easy.

that said when i'm on a limited timeline i like to get all that done asap to make sure they aren't going to get too troubled by the feel of a rider at the different gaits when it's time they go back to their owners.

but unless trotting is smooth and the horse doesnt buck or anything when it's trotting i wouldn't ask it to canter.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

i agree christopher,but only a very good rider or trainer knows how to feel for that and when to step him into the next gait.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

Headtossing and kicking out sounds a bit like a pain issue. Are you sure you have a good saddle fit? Have you had her back checked out? I've had horses who go much better, and known many horses who have gone much better, with a visit from a chiropractor or similar specialist. You'd be surprised how many horses slip on shoulders, or just do random muscular injuries in the paddock. I don't know a lot about how it works, but it always seems to work for me, provided you use a good professional - like all things quality can vary. Also, when were her teeth last done?

I don't think cantering in the roundyard with a rider would be a good idea but provided that she learns and accepts all basic aids there shouldn't be a problem, but from what you describe she doesn't seem to be accepting the bit, nor has she mastered the "go forward" aid. I'd get back to working on all those things first. I'd probably wait until I get a good canter in the roundyard before I work with it in the saddle.

I'd also refrain from getting her to canter with you on her and someone else on the ground. Its just going to confuse her about where her aids come from. You either want the attention on you, or on the person lunging.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

The problem does not come from when you ask a horse to canter / lope. The problem comes from asking and not getting the lope.

I, personally, prefer to ask early - somewhere from the 1st to 3rd ride usually. The reason being that horses seem to develop a nicer, more coordinated lope when they learn early in their training process. I have tried it both ways and it has has worked about 10X better to do it this way. But, then, I get horses very ready on the ground with good ground driving and good 'nose following' skills before any rides. I also read horses very well and find the results of asking to be very predictable. I can see where someone with less skill and experience would feel more comfortable waiting longer. But, I really think waiting longer increases the possibility of a bad wreck. The less confident colt is also less apt to have a 'come-apart' when it does go into a lope. There is something to be said about loping a colt that is a little unsure about what is happening. 

The problems I have encountered with horses brought to me as a public trainer and the problems I repeatedly see here on the Forum of horses refusing to canter no matter what is done with them or to them all seem to come from asking and not succeeding in getting a sustained canter.

If you do not plan on doing whatever it takes to succeed in getting a canter / lope, don't ask. No harm is done if you do not ask. Great harm is done if you ask and give up without getting a sustained lope. This is when horses develop a true aversion to loping and absolutely refuse to lope under any circumstances.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Cherie, usually I agree with nearly everything you have posted. However I do find your comment that getting a more established walk and trot, with the 'buttons' down pat, before asking for canter, means that the trainer in question is not as experienced as yourself, quite offensive and big headed. 
There is more than one way to skin a cat, just because you do it differently to the next person does not make them any less experienced.
It's great that you've had good results with asking early. But I have had good results from waiting. Sure, I'll get them cantering on the lunge, drive them, work in hand etc. But I would prefer to have a horse very confident and in balance before I ask for canter under saddle for the avove mentioned reasons. 

I am unsure as to whether your scattered comments regarding asking and not getting the canter, are intended to be related to those of us who are clearly inexperienced and asking for the canter later. If they are - how on earth did you come to that conclusion? Because I ride dressage does not mean I won't stick at asking until I get the canter. BUT, I would prefer to set the horse up for success, rather than closing my eyes, kicking and hanging on until the horse stumbles into canter, tripping over it's own feet with zero balance.


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## katieandscooby (Feb 14, 2010)

I may not lope my younger ones for a month. And not to be bragging or anything but all of them have turned into fairly nice horses. I have trained and sold quite a few. Everyone seems to like them. They lope when they don't feel like they are going to have trouble keeping a lope and usually I like to use another person and an open field. As the older horse lopes off I let my colts follow. Cluck and squeeze and I haven't had a problem with any of them bucking or anything. I just let them go, stay out of their mouths and don't worry about leads. That will come later.
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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

kayty i think cherie refers to not following through with it and 'settling' for a faster trot.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I guess what I said was too disconnected. I guess that comes from being in too much of a hurry and not re-reading the whole thing.


> The problem does not come from when you ask a horse to canter / lope. The problem comes from asking and not getting the lope.


This is what causes the problems. It usually comes from riders that are not experienced enough or do not go into it with the resolve to get the job done. It does not matter if you lope on the first ride or the 50th ride as long as you get the lope when you ask. The horse views that as your failure and his chance to win a difference of views. It can easily turn into his refusal to lope under any circumstances with a rider on board. When someone says they have tried numerous time to get a lope and the horse has refused, the harm has been done and this not happening to an experienced trainer. It is a very common occurrence. 

This same thing is true of anything you ask a horse. It does not matter whether it is a creek crossing or a trailer loading incident. 
Don't ask if you do not intend to make it happen. 
Don't ask if you do not have the time to make it happen.
Don't ask if you think there is a remote possibility that the horse is not ready to do it right.
If you don't ask, there is not problem. Once you ask, make it happen. This is the message I was trying to get across.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

No problems with that Cherie  
Your first post came across as though you were under the impression that because some of us choose to ask for the canter later, we lack the experience to have success in the process. 
Your comment: "Don't ask if you think there is a remote possibility that the horse is not ready to do it right" is precisely what I was getting at in my first post, and i why I ask for the canter later rather than in the first few rides. Though of course, some horses will naturally have more balance and may well be ready to canter in those first few rides. But I won't ask for it, until I feel 100% confident that I have set my horse up for success. And once I have asked, then I know I have done everything in my power to help the horse, now it's up to him to find his feet in canter under saddle.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

why lrt them start a problem and then have to fix it later?if you are going to lope or canter,do it in the correct lead to start.


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## katieandscooby (Feb 14, 2010)

^ What problem? I never have a problem asking for leads when I start asking for leads. They pick it up just fine. All I do the first time I lope them is let them go. Let them find out how to lope carrying a rider. I really don't care if its left or right or even if they are crossfiring. They moved into a lope like I asked. Baby steps. I set my colts up for success. If I am meddling around with leg and rein aids along with asking to lope, it can confuse them a bit. In the next few rides I start asking leads and 9 out of ten times I get the one I asked for.
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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

When do I start canter work on a green horse?

When I have 'whoa' solid.

Hard to go if you can't stop.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

i agree mis,why ask for a run if you cant stop it.and katie,im sorry,but my success with breaking and training as long as i have always started with a strong foundation right from the beginning.


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## FSHjumper (Apr 26, 2011)

Ive read all replies, and there were a few comments id like to specify. This mare has cantered with a saddle on, she longes, round pens, and long reins. The reason she was cantered on under saddle in the roundpen with someone on the ground was to get her to feel cantering with a rider. She doesnt know the cues to canter from the saddle, she hasnt learned that yet obviously, but I want her to feel what its like to canter under saddle which is why it was done that way-In a controlled enviroment, no option for a big slip up or danger to horse and rider. She knows the cue to canter from the ground, so I ask and she canters, she just happens to have had someone on her back to introduce her with the least amount of confusion as possible. 

I have asked for the canter undersaddle during one ride only. I got it for a few strides which I was fine with. The next time I asked I just got a fast trot and then my mare being ****y as I kept pressure on, I didnt get the canter again, but I continued to keep that pressure on and go at a more extended trot (still very balanced for her) until she finished her hissy fit and I walked her. Then continued on with that-putting more pressure on at the trot until she was really covering some ground and moving along and I kept pressure on until she stopped throwing her head and kicking out and then id stop pressure. That was my new goal at that point, not to canter, but to push her through her trot because she made it clear it was too much pressure for her and the new goal was to make this easier for her. After the second attempt to get the canter, when she then started kicking out and tossing her head, I decided I wasnt going to ask for it anymore in that ride and wed do more work to build to it, but I wasnt going to stop there and let her get away with that nasty behavior either. *Cherie *I completely agree that you keep asking until you get it or you teach them the wrong behaviors, I of course would have prefferred the canter when I asked the second time, but she made it very clear she wasnt going to give it to me and I didnt want to spoil her to leg cues (because she is sensitive to going forward into the trot) and make her ignore them since they just werent going away and the only response shed then given me was head tossing and kicking out due to her annoyance. So I did the next best thing and worked her at a more lively trot on my command, which she wasnt happy about, but that way she didnt fully get to "win" against me. Yes canter would have been ideal, but I pushed her past her comfort zone in a nice manner, ignoring her fits, and by the end of the ride she was doing a lot of very fluid and submissive transitions within the trotting gait. Had I continued to push for the canter it would have been a total mess and neither of us would have come out feeling good about the situation so I did what I would say is the next best thing. Correct me if im wrong though. 

This mare does move off of leg the moment you ask, gives well to the halter (I havent ridden her in a bridle yet), has an exceptional whoa and is even starting lateral movements. She has made it clear she isnt yet ready for cantering with a rider and thats fine, ill do more of it on the ground and work her up to it. Thats my fault for not preparing her as well as I should have, you live you learn, but I just wanted to see how others went about it and the amount of time they spent training before cantering. Ill do a lot of cantering on the longe and then try again when she is doing that 100%. As for w/t work, shes great. I had never asked her to really extend her gait before, so as stated that posed a problem, but she quickly gave up and obliged and has for two rides now been amazing with lenthening and shortening her stride within the trot without a fuss.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

the mare won.she showed an attitude and you backed off. put a bit on her so you have more control,trot to the right,scoot your rail side leg back a little and squeeze her up into a lope.if she kicks out at your squeeze then rake your heel or spur up and down those ribs a little,keeping her head up so she doesnt buck.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

rob said:


> the mare won.she showed an attitude and you backed off.


I agree.

You say she's not ready. She doesn't WANT to and you aren't telling her to. You asked, she said no, she won.

True, she's not show ready or even go all weekend trail riding ready. However she is done growing. Typically forward is learned before you ask for any lateral work.


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

I ask when the horse is ready. I know they are ready because they are calm and under control at the walk and trot. I feel there is no real point in teaching a horse to canter poorly when a more solid walk and trot could produce a better one. When they have that "feel" to them I am then comfortable enough to insist they canter even if they initially become confused or unwilling... But usually insisting never happens because they are ready. It seems to work for me, but there are many roads to China....


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

I must admit that I find all this interesting. I've never owned or ridden a horse that didn't at some point want to canter, so this is new situation for me to hear about. A 4 or 5 year old in training (I saddle mine after 54 months) has always wanted to canter at some point. Usually within the first 10 times ridden. I'll pull them up on their first attempt, but cue them to move into the canter after a couple rounds trotting (only because I like to say when we move and at what speed :lol. Never had a magic number about when it should be done. As a beginning rider (forever ago), my instructor had a set of goals we had to reach before being allowed to canter, but that had nothing to do with the horse. "We" had to be ready. The horses were ready (and knew more than we did at the time).
I'll have to agree with everyone who's saying that allowing the horse to make the choice of not cantering is the wrong choice. It's ok for the horse to let you know what it wants. Like when one tells me it wants to canter. The difference is that it can let me know, but making the choice of what is done and when is up to me. The rider should always make the choice, not the horse. There can only be one leader in the riding partnership and it should never be the horse.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

mls said:


> Hard to go if you can't stop.


vice versa is more true.


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## FSHjumper (Apr 26, 2011)

*its lbs not miles,* I wasnt asking for a certain age lol, more of what goals do you reach before you ask. I dont think you can say every horse should canter at age 4! no sooner, and dont wait until later! Thats sort of ridiculous, I agree with you on that haha, but just to clarify no I wasnt asking for a certain age like in that example. I just wanted to know when others started, was it right away or did they wait until they had a very solid foundation in w/t first. Ive heard both sides and just wanted more opinions. I know some that canter the first day, long before a go and whoa is truly established, and I know others that are under saddle for half a yr at the w/t before attempting the canter.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

FSHjumper said:


> *its lbs not miles,* I wasnt asking for a certain age lol, more of what goals do you reach before you ask. I dont think you can say every horse should canter at age 4! no sooner, and dont wait until later! Thats sort of ridiculous, I agree with you on that haha, but just to clarify no I wasnt asking for a certain age like in that example. I just wanted to know when others started, was it right away or did they wait until they had a very solid foundation in w/t first. Ive heard both sides and just wanted more opinions. I know some that canter the first day, long before a go and whoa is truly established, and I know others that are under saddle for half a yr at the w/t before attempting the canter.


 I wasn't trying to say an age limit for a horse. That's why I said within the first 10 times I'd ridden a horse.

I put the ages in only to give a perspective of the ages I'm working with under a saddle. I've had horses want to canter the first day ridden. In these cases they usually appear to be a little uncertain, since they've never had someone on their back. Likely trying to sort out exactly what the rules are when someone is on top of them :lol: vs on the ground. For me it's always been a very simple process. I want the horse to walk. If they try to trot I hold them back and force them to walk. After they've demonstrated that they can maintain the walk, even though they want to trot, I'll move them up to a trot (my choice, not theirs, to let them do what they want, so it they start to grasp that I determine what we do). Once they've demonstrated that they move from walking, stopping and trotting when required I'll take them to a canter if it's something they had been pushing for. All of this can happen in the same day, or over several days. It's always depended on the horse. 
I had a mare once that didn't show any desire to trot for 3 or 4 days. So I pressed her. She went into the trot. Before we'd completed a lap around the pasture she wanted to canter. Had to hold her back a few of laps until she got the message that only trotting was allowed until I took her to a canter. But she did get to canter later that day.
I've just found it interesting that a horse never wanted to canter. I've never come across that in the 42 years since I started riding. Goes to show that you'll never see it all. There can always be something new. Never had to think about how I would manage to train a horse to canter if it had never wanted to. Never took more than a tickle on the flank if they weren't responding. Almost all of my young horses have itched to canter and even gallop with almost no encouragement :lol:. I've experienced problems with the reverse more often. A horse wanting to move faster instead of staying at a slower pace.
Good luck with you effort to motivate you horse to canter. I can't think of anything in my experience that would apply. I broke a bull once and had to pull his tail afterwards to get him to move, but I wouldn't recommend that with a horse. I've never worn spurs, but they might work. I've known people who swear by them and I guess if I got poke with one I'd move out.


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## FSHjumper (Apr 26, 2011)

I agree with you, most at some point have a desire to move into the canter! I wonder though if she doesnt have a desire because shes an older mare. She was kept as a broodmare but only bred once, so really just a pasture puff. Shes now 11 and im just starting her. My mare who I started at age 7 was the same way, didnt really want to canter under saddle, just wanted to trot. I had issues getting her to canter, took a lot of encouragement and usually resulting in some mild bucking then a few strides then back to a speedy trot. Now she likes to break into the canter the moment I put leg on, even if its just for lateral movment :lol: So she didnt take to the thought process one of the other posters said about never wanting to canter if you dont make them do it from the start. But most young horses ive trained go into it easily, maybe the old hags dont want to :wink: lol


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

an older horse canyering is like an older kid that never had to work.if they have never done it,why start now?


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