# Appys changing colors?



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I have never heard of anything like that before. If I could look at some pix of the horse(s) I could better guess if it is the same horse or not.


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## Haley (Aug 18, 2009)

No, a horse cannot change from gray back to their true color color. The girl is lying. And appy's coat colors can't change either. Only their patterns will change.


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## hollybee (Aug 14, 2009)

well, i went to see a horse who (at the time (winter)) looked like a dapple grey, they showed me a video of him jumping in summer and he was a brown leopard spot with a completely brown face & then they showed me a picture of him as a foal and he was palomino . . . i don't know whether they were lying or not, but he had a roach back which i could see on the foal picture and the video of him . . . 
i know it sounds unbelievable, but that's what i saw !

in the end i didn't buy him, but you know haha


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I would more so believe it if he had just turned grey. However, born chestnut, grey out, and suddenly get his solid color back? I don't think that's possible. 

Now, as far as the post above, I think that can happen; a horse darkening out somewhat, if he's born lighter, but it probably has to do with the fact that he was dark underneath that lighter pali color in the first place.


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## hollybee (Aug 14, 2009)

well yes, i've never heard of something chopping and changing from grey to chestnut, but someone above said appys cant change colour so . . .


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## Haley (Aug 18, 2009)

hollybee said:


> well, i went to see a horse who (at the time (winter)) looked like a dapple grey, they showed me a video of him jumping in summer and he was a brown leopard spot with a completely brown face & then they showed me a picture of him as a foal and he was palomino . . . i don't know whether they were lying or not, but he had a roach back which i could see on the foal picture and the video of him . . .
> i know it sounds unbelievable, but that's what i saw !
> 
> in the end i didn't buy him, but you know haha


It's entirely possible (infact, there's no other way) for a foal to be born palomino then change to grey, because grey is a modifier that over time causes de-pigmentation of the colored hairs. No foals are born grey. If they have the grey gene, they are born whatever color they are (palomino, sorrel, bay, black, etc) and then start greying out as they get older.

However, changing from palomino to grey then brown or whatever, completely impossible. Once a horse greys, it doesn't change.


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## RoosterDo (Feb 11, 2009)

My appy was a bay with a blanket when I got him at 10 months, when he was matured he was a white leopard with bay spots all over but kept his black mane, tail, and legs.


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## hollybee (Aug 14, 2009)

> However, changing from palomino to grey then brown or whatever, completely impossible. Once a horse greys, it doesn't change.


say whatever you like, i know what i saw so i couldn't care less what you say =]


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## Fire Eyes (May 13, 2009)

_I don't know about appy's. But I know roans that go from almost solid white to chestnut/bay with white flecks. Major coat changes. 

But there is no way a horse that is born Paly will go grey then brown. I'm sorry but that just isn't possible. 
When foals are done shedding their baby coat, that is the colour they stay. That colour can change slightly, lightening in summer etc, but it will never be a complete different colour.
_


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> say whatever you like, i know what i saw so i couldn't care less what you say =]




Sheesh, Haley was just telling you how what you saw might have come about. Relax and don't jump on people.

I think in your case, the foal may have looked Palomino before shedding out to his brown/appy colouring, then greyed before you went to see him.

A friend of mine has an appy. When he was younger, he was a bay with a blanket and a small amount of roaning near his head/legs, and now he looks like this:


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

I would have to see pictures to comment on this specific horse.

Horses with the LP gene (the "on off switch" for Appaloosa characteristics, and the expression of patterning, if any is present) and/or Appaloosa patterning, can go through weird changes in both base color and patterning. 

I had a horse who was born red dun with a blanket over his back and hips. As a young stallion he had alot of white speckling in his red dun forparts, down his legs and etc. A few years later this reversed and his red dun areas became more solid again. Then as an aged stallion the white speckling returned. He never really roaned, as in, gained white hairs that were dispersed/blended througout his dark haired areas..... but the amount of visible white outside his blanket increased, decreased, then increased again. If he had lived longer it may have decreased again.

The presence of LP can indeed interact with base color to cause changes. For example, my current stallion was born bay with a small white blanket over his hips. He roaned and is now mostly white. He does have color on his legs, mane and tail, and over the "bony prominences" of his body, but he no longer has any black points-- areas that used to be black look dark chestnut-- but he IS still genetically a bay.

There are at least two Appaloosas I know of who look dun or palomino, but who have been genetically tested as black. At least one had base colored areas that were the typical color of a foal who was going to be black, but those areas shed out gold. 

It is also possible that the winter coat was lighter and faded to almost white, and when the horse shed again, he was again dark. This is not common in chestnuts, but very common in dilute colors such as palomino or buckskin. It seems more extreme in horses with LP.

Horses with LP as well as the grey gene sometimes do go grey very quickly, sometimes shedding out totally white on their first foal shed.

If the Appaloosa in question truly greyed, as in, from the action of the grey gene (which is unrelated to Appaloosa coloring) I agree he would not gain color again later (except maybe for flea bites, which do appear as little "re-colored" specks in greys who have already turned off mostly white). However if his "going white" was due to the Action of LP, I would not rule out re-coloring later on-- its not common, but based on the Appaloosa weirdness I have seen, its not totally impossible.


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## hollybee (Aug 14, 2009)

he was born a palomino
he was a leopard spot in the summer
and he was grey in the winter

i saw his passport which had a picture of him as a foal
i saw a video of him jumping in summer which i could tell was him from his movement and his roach back
and i went to see him and rode him in winter

yes, my vet also thought that this was unusual

i don't have pictures as i didn't buy him

at the end of the day, when it comes to horses you can never really say "that can never happen" because, really, anything can happen - however unusual it sounds, i won't give anymore examples of my personal experience as all of you clearly know best so i wont join in on this converstaion anymore


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

>>> he was born a palomino he was a leopard spot in the summer and he was grey in the winter
>>> at the end of the day, when it comes to horses you can never really say "that can never happen" because, really, anything can happen - however unusual it sounds, i won't give anymore examples of my personal experience as all of you clearly know best so i wont join in on this converstaion anymore 

Is the above in response to my post? Because I was responding to the changes described in the OP, with the horse that was born chestnut/app, then went "grey" then back to chestnut/app..... as well commenting on the weirdness of some appaloosa effects in general. Even though I was not responding to your observation specifically, if you re-read what I posted you will see I basically agree with you on most points. I thought that I was pretty clear that with Appaloosas I "never say never". No offense was intended--


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## hollybee (Aug 14, 2009)

> Is the above in response to my post? Because I was responding to the changes described in the OP, with the horse that was born chestnut/app, then went "grey" then back to chestnut/app..... as well commenting on the weirdness of some appaloosa effects in general. Even though I was not responding to your observation specifically, if you re-read what I posted you will see I basically agree with you on most points. I thought that I was pretty clear that with Appaloosas I "never say never". No offense was intended--


oh nono, i wasnt replying to you, i was really greatful for your post and found it really interesting - thanks !, it was to the people who basically said i was lying


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Dramatic much? I don't think I read anyone say you were lying. All I read is that what you think you saw is highly unlikely/impossible and there is probably another explanation.

You need to relax and accept that there are some things that are fact, and that no one was attacking you. 

If gthe horse really changed from a true leapord spot to a true grey every year, you should let a geneticist knwo as i'm sure they would love to study such an anomaly.


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## Haley (Aug 18, 2009)

hollybee said:


> say whatever you like, i know what i saw so i couldn't care less what you say =]


I'm not "saying whatever I like". This is the way the gray gene works. Don't believe me, look it up.

The Lp gene could TOTALLY cause a horse a to "white" in the winter, then as it sheds for the summer it gets it's dark coat back.. I was saying the horse couldn't technically be GRAY, as in, have the gray gene.


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## hollybee (Aug 14, 2009)

well you are really, half of you are saying it's impossible the other half are telling me what i "might have thought i saw"

as i said before, i didn't buy that horse as he failed his vetting - so tracking him down to pay for him to have some tests is a complete nono, maybe if the man selling didn't try to fob us off with him i could have done that for you =]

i'm sorry, i'm not accepting that that is fact . . . 4 people came to see that horse with me we all thought he was quite unusual & special, the yard owner & workers knew he was unusual from his colour changes, i saw his passport, i saw his breeding and i've been around horses long enough to know that when a horse is grey it's grey, just because you have never seen a horse change colour that dramatically i obviously "thought i saw something else"

so appaloosa's can't be grey can they ? alright, you're all right aren't you ?



















That's funny isn't it ?



"I consider appy's the fun breed as each spring it seems they are a different. They change in the winter and come spring they usually have more spots or more *grey*. You never know what you are going to end up with,lol. I love my appy" -- Quote from another forum

"I have seen Apps change color by the *season* and *year* so it just depends. That makes them so cool. Always a surprise and beautiful!" -- yet another quote from that forum


That forum seems way better than this one, at least they're not all norrow minded, and as i said - i'm sorry but i don't agree with your "facts"


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## Fire Eyes (May 13, 2009)

hollybee said:


> That forum seems way better than this one, at least they're not all norrow minded, and as i said - i'm sorry but i don't agree with your "facts"


_
I'm not commenting on the rest of your post, but don't come onto this forum and abuse it. That's just stupid. If you don't like this forum, it's simple, leave.
_


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## Amba1027 (Jun 26, 2009)

No one ever say Appys can't be grey. They said if their grey coloring was a result of having the grey gene then they wouldn't turn grey and then turn another color. Once they turn grey they'll stay grey IF they have the grey gene. That's my understanding of what was said. 

Now I'm wondering, is it possible for a horse to appear to be grey without having the grey gene?


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## hollybee (Aug 14, 2009)

> I was saying the horse couldn't technically be GRAY, as in, have the gray gene.


oh well

then a respone to the above - maybe, as "dollar" the horse i went to see had grey, brown & black through his coat more like a marble appy in winter like i said, but if it's impossible for appys to go grey then another colour maybe he just had a funny coat but not the grey gene ?? i dont know


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> i'm sorry, i'm not accepting that that is fact . . . 4 people came to see that horse with me we all thought he was quite unusual & special, the yard owner & workers knew he was unusual from his colour changes, i saw his passport, i saw his breeding and i've been around horses long enough to know that when a horse is grey it's grey, *just because you have never seen a horse change colour that dramatically i obviously "thought i saw something else"*


WRONG. I have a roan in my paddock who changes from nearly solid bay to nearly solid white. Unless you don't count that as a big transformation?

Those pictures above don't show a grey horse. They show an appy (In BOTH pictures his blanket is clearly visible/distinguishable) and also, not a true leapord appy. To me he looks like a varnish roan/snowflake appy with a black base and some defined spots. The roaning acting on the black base is what makes him look 'grey', but he is NOT a true grey. Nearly all horses with roaning change colour throughout the seasons, like the pony I know above. 




> i've been around horses long enough to know that when a horse is grey it's grey,


So a blue roan is a grey because it looks grey? A palomino in a faded winter coat is grey because it looks grey?


> "I have seen Apps change color by the *season* and *year* so it just depends. That makes them so cool. Always a surprise and beautiful!"


I have also seen this, and I SAID it in an earlier post. Another pony in my paddock is an appy and went from being nearly true bay with a blanket to roaning all through his coat except the legs.

I really don't appreciate you insulting this forum. All people have been trying to do is educate you. That's what this forum is about. But you just go *la la la* when people use FACTS to explain why what you thought you saw couldn't have happened. That horse is not a grey in any way, shape or form. Sure, it's a grey colour, but it's not a TRUE grey.


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## Haley (Aug 18, 2009)

hollybee said:


> oh well
> 
> then a respone to the above - maybe, as "dollar" the horse i went to see had grey, brown & black through his coat more like a marble appy in winter like i said, but if it's impossible for appys to go grey then another colour *maybe he just had a funny coat but not the grey gene* ?? i dont know


Yep that's exactly it!  Lp (appy gene) definitely makes things weird, and appys do change by the month and year. Oh and yes, appys can have the grey gene, it just seams like that one in particular didn't have it.


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## Haley (Aug 18, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> Those pictures above don't show a grey horse. They show an appy (In BOTH pictures his blanket is clearly visible/distinguishable) and also, not a true leapord appy. To me he looks like a varnish roan/snowflake appy with a black base and some defined spots. The roaning acting on the black base is what makes him look 'grey', but he is NOT a true grey. Nearly all horses with roaning change colour throughout the seasons, like the pony I know above.


I agree, the horses posted are not grey. They look to be black based with the appy roaning (from Lp), and what pattern have have on top of that. As those horses age, is it likely they will become whiter due to Lp changing their coat, but it's not true grey.


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## hollybee (Aug 14, 2009)

> I really don't appreciate you insulting this forum. All people have been trying to do is educate you. That's what this forum is about. But you just go *la la la* when people use FACTS to explain why what you thought you saw couldn't have happened. That horse is not a grey in any way, shape or form.


the horse i saw had a grey coat but probably didn't have the grey gene - which i never said he did, and as i said later on ^^ he was more of a marble appaloosa but didn't explain this at the start - shoot me

at the end of the day, their coat colour on those pictures regardless of there snowcaps, blankets or other markings is grey - when you look at those pictures, their coat is grey - whatever their skin colour / genes are - shoot me
(and just for reference, the appy i went to see didn't look like either of them)



> i've been around horses long enough to know that when a horse is grey it's grey


when i said that i didn't mean it as in he was a true grey - as from the start i said he was an appaloosa, i meant the colour of his coat was grey regardless of patterning

all i said was that he went from leopard to grey, i do apologise that i didn't give you every detail - i just said he went grey rather than explaining every colour that was through his coat as i didn't think we'd have a debate about it - i was just giving a quick paragraph on an unusual horse that i had come into contact with

so now i hope everyones going to stop telling me what i thought i saw as all i was saying is horses do change dramatically and i knew an appaloosa that did - if i ever see him again (which i highly doubt) as the hunting yard he was at completely ruined him i'll ask for some pictures for you all


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## hollybee (Aug 14, 2009)

and just one last thing, from my original post -



> well, i went to see a horse who (at the time (winter)) *looked like a dapple grey*


regardless of everything, you can look at an appaloosa and part of it's coat is/looks grey


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ I can look at my solid chestnut with a blaze and a sock and parts of his coat look grey.

Of course people are going to debate a post that makes assumptions without giving the full story.If anyone on any post said that they saw something that genetically isn't possible, people are going to be interested and argue.


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## hollybee (Aug 14, 2009)

yes i understand that, but as i said before i didn't give the whole story as i didn't realise we'd have a debate about me being blind, i don't have a lot of time on the computer i go to college & have 4 horses to look after and i don't drive which makes my days very long & full, so when i type things on here / myspace / facebook i miss a lot of things out as when i am on the comtuper i am doing college work and my mind is otherwise occupied - next time i post something i'll try to remember to give you every possible detail

as i said, most of his coat was grey, i now know that appaloosa's can't genetically be truly grey - thanks for that as it's something i didn't know about appallosa's genetics, even so, "dollar" was not a roan and looked mostly grey

i appreciate all of your comments, but, i have had horses for 15 years, i have my BHS stage 1 & 2 and i'm training towards my stage 3 and Assistant Instructor exam . . . i'm not stupid

and i'm not saying that he ^^ was, but none of us can deny that there can be throwbacks when breeding & in the wild. a few years ago a cremello was born in to a completely feral New Forest herd . . . that's probably the first cremello in New Forest history - as you are all probably aware that they are all bay / dun 

just a bit of proof for you, as i have it this time

Pictured: The rare 'albino' foal that's become a star of the New Forest | Mail Online


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## Haley (Aug 18, 2009)

As I said in my above post, yes they _can_ be grey. Appaloosa's can carry the gray gene. But that horse in question you were describing didn't have it, if he was brown when shedded out.

We weren't calling you stupid, we were merely trying to educate you. It's only been recently that equine genetics have really become understood, and most people still know very little about it. Even my trainer tried to tell me Arabians can be buckskin, when in fact they cannot because PB arabs don't carry the cream gene, and she's been around horses for 30+ years. A little knowledge never hurt anyone. 

It wouldn't really be that hard for a cremello foal to be born. That foals dam looks smoky brown to me. Definitely not regular bay or brown, and definitely not dun either. All it would take is for the foal's sire to carry the cream gene as well, and viola cremello. It's fairly basic genetics really, not some weird anomaly.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

I think most of the confusion/argument on this thread is terminology. Most "modern" horse enthusiasts and registries in the US do not use the term "grey" to describe a horse unless it is a horse who is gradually turning white because it has the greying gene. I notice Hollybee lists their location as the UK-- perhaps in her part of the world the word "grey" is used more for general phenotype-- like, if a horse's coat is a shade between black and white, its called grey-- no matter what genetic action caused it. It used to be that way in the US as well, and there are still some horse folks in the US, especially older horse folks, who use the term grey that way.


_>>>>as i said, most of his coat was grey, i now know that appaloosa's can't genetically be truly grey - thanks for that as it's something i didn't know about appallosa's genetics, even so, "dollar" was not a roan and looked mostly grey_

A horse CAN have both grey genetics, and LP genetics, and there can be alot of confusion arise from that in subsequent generations, since both grey and LP can cause progressive whitening and their effect can look similar at certain stages, but they are totally seperate genes. It is not desirable combination with many breeders/owners, because of that confusion, and also as eventually the end result of greying from the grey gene is that the horse loses most if not all of its Appaloosa color, including the spots. (Appaloosa roaning can make a horse go very white as well, but leaves its Appaloosa spots). Here is a mare I used to own who had LP characteristics (mottled skin, sclera, etc.) as well as the grey gene--










_>>>>>Now I'm wondering, is it possible for a horse to appear to be grey without having the grey gene? _

Oh yes, absolutely. At certain stages/certain horses, there are several other genes whos' effects can mimic grey gene greying. I had a big fewspot Appaloosa mare (different mare from above, sorry, no online photos, she was pretty much pre-computer LOL)-- no grey anywhere in her pedigree-- who my vet insisted as calling grey on her Coggins papers-- she was almost all white with a few roany smudges of color on her legs-- also had some dark skin under the white hair on parts of her body-- As a fewspot, she only had two or three Appaloosa spots, which were not greyed, but were not large or obvious. She really did look grey to someone not familiar with extremely white/extremely roaned Appaloosas.


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## hollybee (Aug 14, 2009)

yes, i have done about basic genetics at college in animal biology - a lot of the lecturers look down on me at college because i like cremello's and appaloosa's - not many posh english people do (my big-headded lecturers); i have done research on cremello genetics in my own time as i plan to start breeding them within the next few years but i have never done much on appaloosa's and as i said above ^^ i am greatful for the information i have been given

in the summer dollar was mostly white with brown leopard spots and a brown face but still had his face markings and leg markings etc

as for the mother of the cremello, that's what a lot of duns look like in winter over here, i have a picture of my mare's mum if you'd like to see it

but still, in a herd of wild, dark coloured horses - a cremello foal isn't really what you see every day - hence it making the news. i am not trying to argue, i'm just giving an example and saying that there's never a guarantee of what a foal will be and there can always be throwbacks and unusual coloured horses


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## hollybee (Aug 14, 2009)

> perhaps in her part of the world the word "grey" is used more for general phenotype-- like, if a horse's coat is a shade between black and white, its called grey-- no matter what genetic action caused it.


That is exactly right, if a horse is dappled, flea bitten, white, rose, steel / iron, was born black and has gone through all the lightening stages and is now flea bitten, is partly dappled etc - it is referred to as a grey, as that is the colour of it's coat, we don't only call horses that are becoming lighter "grey" -- this doesn't mean we call blue roans or blue and white horses grey though

when generally speaking about horses we don't talk about their genetics, we talk about the colour they are on the day (lol) or if they were born one colour and are now a different colour we would just say (for example) "oh yes, he was born chestnut like his dam, but now he's now gone grey like his sire" etc . . . but we hardly ever bring genetics into the conversation


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## hollybee (Aug 14, 2009)

yet another bit of useless information from me - 
(haha)

i also had a pony who was grey and had appaloosa charicteristics, mottled skin, sclera etc -




















whoops, sorry the pics are so big !


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## Haley (Aug 18, 2009)

That foal is obviously cremello. It would need to get a cream gene from both parents for that to be possible. I see absolutely _nothing_ about that foals dam that looks dun, she doesn't have a _single_ characteristic of dun. She's classic smoky brown. The dun and cream gene are completely different. If that foals dam was dun with no cream gene that foal wouldn't be cremello. Simple as that. However it's very common for people to "mix up" a horse that heterozygous for cream and duns. It happens quite often. I'm just saying, while I do believe that people would call that mare dun, genetically she's not. I'm just kind of a stickler for correctness. :lol:


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## hollybee (Aug 14, 2009)

i'm sorry, but in england, no horses are "smokey brown"

she is very dark, i agree, but many dun's look like that in winter, you can see the dun colouring on her face and the lighter points over her body

here is a picture of Leita in summer










here is a picture of Leita at the start of winter, pretty much the rest of her body goes that dark brown colour on her face and neck as winter goes on (i don't have pictures of her through winter as she isn't mine she's my mare's mum at another yard)










i know she doesn't look exactly the same as the one in the article, but she does get darker than that through winter - and in england she is still classed as a dun


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## hollybee (Aug 14, 2009)

here is another picture of the cremello and his mother
it is quite clear to me that that mare is a dun, you can see from her lighter points


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## Haley (Aug 18, 2009)

Genetically, I'm sure there are. But that's what I was saying, we're try to go by the genotype, where over there seam to go more on phenotype.

All smoky brown is a brown horse with one cream gene. Almost the same as buckskin but instead of the horse's base being bay it's brown.

FWIW your moms mare looks buskskin. She's super cute!

And as I said, I completely understand why that mares considered dun, I was just saying she simply needs to have a cream gene for the foal to be cremello.

edit: that new photo, I'd be willing to bet that mare is buckskin and not dun too. In all these pictures, I've not seen a single mare with any of the dun characteristics. No dorsal stripe (almost all duns have a dorsal stripe), no leg baring, if they have any wither shading it's very light, and no cob webbing on the face.


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## Haley (Aug 18, 2009)

this guy is a very obvious dun, you can see his markings really well. Note big dark dorsal stripe, lag barring, and wither shading, and the faint cob webbing on his face.


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## hollybee (Aug 14, 2009)

ohhh right (smokey brown thing) so, what we call a dun . . . is that what you guys call a buckskin ?

so a smokey brown would look like a bay but without black points ? . . . do you have any pictures of any please ? lol

oh yeahyeah, i know about cream genes and all that malarky *wipes sweat off head with the amount of reading up on cremello's i did last year* lol 

i'm sorry, i've been doing a really looong and confusing assignment all day and had no food, so i'm probably not reading things properly now *eyes go googley* haha . . . i think i'm going to have a cup of tea and some biscuits ! (how english !) 


p.s that's not my mum's mare, that's my mums mares mummy !! haha - my typing is vigorously going down hill due to this god-awful assignment !!! - i'm sorry ! we were going to buy Leita, but we bought Connie (a palomino) instead . . . hopefully we'll get to do some stuff with Leita though as the people who own her don't ride her & she loves eventing =] so it would be cool do ride her. she's just had her second baby and she's black ! =D 

^^yes that's what i think of when someone say's dun, but still in england very dark dun's like the cremello's mum are still called duns


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

RoosterDo said:


> My appy was a bay with a blanket when I got him at 10 months, when he was matured he was a white leopard with bay spots all over but kept his black mane, tail, and legs.


Did he kind of look like this? He probably had a roaning gene; which would have made him a varnish roan, color wise. That he kept his dark points leads me to think he had a roaning, rather than 'grey' gene.


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## hollybee (Aug 14, 2009)

so what exactly is the difference between a dun & a buckskin ? . . . because, yet again, in england we don't call horses "buckskin"


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>>I see absolutely *nothing* about that foals dam that looks dun, she doesn't have a single characteristic of dun. She's classic smoky brown. The dun and cream gene are completely different. _

Yes, another example of different terminology coming into play-- I absoutely have run into this one! In many parts of the world, ANYTHING that is yellowish and/or dilute looking with a same-color-as-their-body-or-darker mane and tail and legs is called dun, and has been that way for eons. Its here in the USA where the phenotype research and genetic testing have comparably recently seperated the various genes out, where we use dun so specifically (requiring dun factor, and etc.).

I did some interesting research on early color nomenclature in the Appaloosa Horse Club. The terms Buckskin and Palomino were not used in registration designtions until the 1950s-1960s-- prior to that, ALL yellow/dilute horses were called either Dun or Cream, based on their mane and tail and leg color. Dun was yellow with same-color-points or darker, cream was yellow with manes/tails/points lighter than their body.

Here are a few examples of what was called/registered as dun or cream in the 1930's and 1940's in the USA-- 

Registered as "Cream", 
foaled 1929








foaled 1941









Registered as "Dun",
foaled in 1939








foaled 1943









I personally like the specificity/clarity of our current terms in our little corner,, but I totally understand that where different or more general terminology has existed for many many years, there will be a reluctance to change-- based on what is being talked about thousands of miles away--what for those folks are well-understood, well established terms.


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## Plains Drifter (Aug 4, 2009)

I am getting a palomino filly whose mother is grey and the dad is a buckskin, does this mean that when she gets older she will grey out and look like her mom..or is it more possibly that she will stay a palomino.



Haley said:


> It's entirely possible (infact, there's no other way) for a foal to be born palomino then change to grey, because grey is a modifier that over time causes de-pigmentation of the colored hairs. No foals are born grey. If they have the grey gene, they are born whatever color they are (palomino, sorrel, bay, black, etc) and then start greying out as they get older.
> 
> However, changing from palomino to grey then brown or whatever, completely impossible. Once a horse greys, it doesn't change.


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## Plains Drifter (Aug 4, 2009)

Here is my filly along with her Mom.









Ps..here my palomino filly's Dad. He's registered as a buckskin.









And here is Lillie's Mom...She's registered as a Dun.(for those interested in Duns and Buckskins)









And Lillie who is registered as a Dun..


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## hollybee (Aug 14, 2009)

Eastowest, yet another interesting and informative post

As for the comment about reluctance - reluctance has nothing to do with it, we (UK) say that a horse is the colour that we see, you (US) say that a horse is the colour of their genetic make up. Neither is incorrect, terminology & reasoning is different all over the world


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> As for the comment about reluctance - reluctance has nothing to do with it, we (UK) say that a horse is the colour that we see, you (US) say that a horse is the colour of their genetic make up. Neither is incorrect, terminology & reasoning is different all over the world


That would mean you call cremellos white :] Bay, cremello, palomino, are all genetic terms.

There is so much mis-information in that article, it made me chuckle.

Dun Vs. Buckskin - A dun has primitive 'dun markers' that prove it is a dun. Dorsal stripe, leg barring, wither barring, cobwebbing on the face. A buckskin is a bay with a cream gene, so the cream gene lightens their coat to the buttermilk colour but leaves the brown/black points. A smoky brown is a brown with the cream gene.

^ Feel free to correct if i'm wrong but that is my understanding.


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## hollybee (Aug 14, 2009)

i'm not going to correct you, if that is your understanding and your terminology that's fine, i accept that - i'm not the one being difficult for no reason here

we don't call cremello's white because they're not white they're cream. you're just being nit-picky for no reason whatsoever, we call brown horses with black points BAY, we call white horses or any horses that are grey in colour (excluding roans) GREY, we call buttermilk coloured horses with black points, black manes & tails and usually a dorsal stripe DUN – I’m not explaining anymore, if you would like to know what the british call particular colours then ask me

i thought we had all established that british terminology & american termiology is different - if you didn't understand that darling you should have said something, there's no need to try and make yourself look clever about it when you're clearly just being irritating, i'm not listing the different terms we use for different coloured horses for your benifit because, are you 5 years old ? do you need everything spelled out for you !? USE YOUR BRAIN 

i'm sorry, but i don't suffer fools lightly and i don’t have the time for this unnecessary argument anymore, so i'm not going to reply to anyone who is just going to be immature and nit-picky for no reason other that it makes them feel a smidgen more clever than they felt when they woke up





i joined this forum thinking i would get some useful information and have a chance to share some of my experiences with others who need help or have encountered similar problems to mine, however, it’s blown my mind that we’ve spent a week talking about how americans describe colours and how the british describe colours. apart from 2 of the people on this forum, all i’ve had from the rest of you is argument and attempt to ram your opinions down my throat. i don’t want to discuss this any longer. 

I have accepted the way that Americans / Australians / Canadians describe colours, i think the real question here is why are you finding it so difficult to accept how the British describe colours ?


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> i joined this forum thinking i would get some useful information and have a chance to share some of my experiences with others who need help or have encountered similar problems to mine, however, it’s blown my mind that we’ve spent a week talking about how americans describe colours and how the british describe colours. apart from 2 of the people on this forum, all i’ve had from the rest of you is argument and attempt to ram your opinions down my throat. i don’t want to discuss this any longer.


Step back, take a deep breath, and repeat after me. "This is just the internet - This is just the internet - This is just the internet". 

I actually find this interesting, which is why i'm still commenting. I can talk about this as long as I want. And if you didn't notice, smiley face was added after the comment above. The generally denotes that i'm not being snarky, and not trying to ram my opinion down anyones thoat. I actually enjoy debate. The fact is that most named colours are named with their genetic name. It's only with further research and understanding of the different genes and their effect that the new colours such as smoky brown, etc have entered common speech. I don't really give a fig what you call horses. But this thread is interesting for anyone who finds colour genetics interesting, including me.


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## Amba1027 (Jun 26, 2009)

I agree, I am finding this thread very interesting and informative. I hope it can continue.


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## Haley (Aug 18, 2009)

Plains Drifter said:


> I am getting a palomino filly whose mother is grey and the dad is a buckskin, does this mean that when she gets older she will grey out and look like her mom..or is it more possibly that she will stay a palomino.


Unfortunately, I wouldn't be able to tell you if she's going to grey out or not. Part of it depends on her dams zygosity, and the other part depends on weather or not she got the grey gene.

If her dam is homozygous (has two grey genes) then she will 100% grey out. If her dam is heterozygous, there's a 50% chance she will grey out.


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## CheyAut (Nov 26, 2008)

I probably should NOT get involved, but I can't help but say it. Hollybee, YOU are the only one who has been RUDE on this thread.

A great place to learn about colors and genetics (which happens to be an obsession of mine) is www.equine-color.info


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## AMHunter91 (Oct 25, 2009)

*Im the horses owner shes speaking of*

I got my colt when he was 15 months old (December 2008) , he was a chestnnut with a blanket, by summer (July 2009) he had greyed out, not totally but enough to not show his socks and his blaze. I took photos of him in September 2009 when he had grown a bit and gotten alot of his chestnut color back. This is NOT impossible to happen and i am NOT lying my uncle has bred and raised appys for years, it is something that happens with this breed. He will be a chestnut with a blanket, a blaze and socks and can change color by either season or with age.









this photo was taken in December 2008 MySpace








this photo was taken in July 2009 MySpace








this photo was taken in September 2009 MySpace


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

Welcome AMHunter91,
Your photos do not come through. I tried copying and pasting the URL but Myspace said either they were deleted or marked private. I would love to see them-- can you post them another way?


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## snicktrip (Jul 24, 2009)

~Dec.2008









~July 2009









~Sept. 2009


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## AMHunter91 (Oct 25, 2009)

And as you can see, in the last 2 photos, he has the white marking on his face. Faint in the 2nd photo but in the last it is prominent. You can also see the right hind sock in both bottom photos, as well as in the top photo. While the top photo is not a facial shot you can clearly tell they are ALL the SAME horse.


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## flamingauburnmustang (Dec 25, 2008)

Wow....this is an intense debate. I have enjoyed reading it though. LOL.


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## alli09 (Oct 23, 2009)

that is very strange and I doubt it's the same horse.


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## Haley (Aug 18, 2009)

AMHunter91 said:


> And as you can see, in the last 2 photos, he has the white marking on his face. Faint in the 2nd photo but in the last it is prominent. You can also see the right hind sock in both bottom photos, as well as in the top photo. While the top photo is not a facial shot you can clearly tell they are ALL the SAME horse.


That's because that's not true greying. It's appy roaning which, no one ever said it was impossible for appaloosa's to do. It's very common in fact. If he'd truly gone GREY, and then turned back to chestnut, that would be impossible. :wink:


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> That's because that's not true greying. It's appy roaning which, no one ever said it was impossible for appaloosa's to do. It's very common in fact. If he'd truly gone GREY, and then turned back to chestnut, that would be impossible. :wink:


Yup :]


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## AMHunter91 (Oct 25, 2009)

Thank you for agreeing with me, I am the horses owner, and also owned his dam who did the same roaning when she was young. he was never completely grey he just roaned and then his color came back


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## toadflax (Jul 14, 2009)

Okay, what color would you call my mare? She's a registered Appy and the registry called her a gruella from not so great photos. From reading the description I would say she is not a gruella, not a dun, perhaps a buckskin?


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## Haley (Aug 18, 2009)

Hmm.. something makes me want to say smoky brown, but that's just based off of that picture. Appy genes a known for messing up color anyway. Do you have any more pictures, or a pedigree? I'd make it easier to tell if there was any cream in the lineage. I agree with you though, I don't see anything that hints towards the dun gene.


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## toadflax (Jul 14, 2009)

Well, here's another picture, unfortunately she's already growing in winter coat. I don't have her actual pedigree, her mom was of unknown ancestry and her dad was Caliente Kohoutek, out of Alyce Zing by Caliente Revel. And that's all I know.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

Absolutely looks like the same colt in all three photos to me too. Another factor (besides app roaning) I believe is coming into play is winter vs. summer coat-- he is darker in the earliest photo midwinter, and at his lightest midsummer. Then in Sept. when the winter coat grown back in, he is dark again. 

It could that his hair is actually growing in darker in the winter, and also could be that his summer coat starts out darker but sun-fades out in the summer heat and sun. 

It will be interesting to see how he looks when he sheds out next year-- If you can share photos then I would love to see!


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

Well this has been an interesting post! I've only had one appy, he started sorrel w/ a white blanket, and by the time I sold him (around 7) he had mostly roaned out all except his legs. Appys do seem to go through the crazy changes! I have a friend that raises miniature apps, you can see them after a year or so and wonder if you are seeing the same horse, I guess that's just the fun of it!

The cremello foal's mom looks buckskin to me, and since buckskins already carry one creme gene it's completely believable that she'd have a cremello foal, all she has to do is mate w/ another horse that carries creme (palomino, buckskin, smokey black, etc). I guess it is just different terminologies, there are alot of people that interchange dun and buckskin. Really dun can be on any color, typical dun is generally dun on bay or buckskin, but it can also be on sorrel (red dun), black (grulla), palomino (dunalino), etc.

It does look like that poor cremello is having trouble w/ the sun, I hope he manages to adjust. I've only had one cremello and she never sunburn or had trouble because of her light coat.


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## AlbertaHighCountry (Oct 27, 2009)

alli09 said:


> that is very strange and I doubt it's the same horse.


Look at the head, it's the same horse. LOL


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## Plains Drifter (Aug 4, 2009)

Haley said:


> Unfortunately, I wouldn't be able to tell you if she's going to grey out or not. Part of it depends on her dams zygosity, and the other part depends on weather or not she got the grey gene.
> 
> If her dam is homozygous (has two grey genes) then she will 100% grey out. If her dam is heterozygous, there's a 50% chance she will grey out.


I'm not sure if her dam is or not (homozygous). The dam was registered as a black but now is a dapple gray. The sire was a black. Now on her mother's side, both sire and dam were gray.

Don't know if this helps or not. But if I look back on the dam's mother's side (way back) the gray seems to win out:

Dun + Gray = Gray
Chestnut + Gray= Gray
Gray+Gray= Gray
Black+Gray=Gray

I guess I'll find out what Lyric will be when she gets older!  Here is a picture of her now.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>>> Don't know if this helps or not. But if I look back on the dam's mother's side (way back) the gray seems to win out:_

_Dun + Gray = Gray_
_Chestnut + Gray= Gray_
_Gray+Gray= Gray_
_Black+Gray=Gray_

Remember that in each instance where a horse inherits grey, it also inherited a base color and whatever other color modifiers. In these cases grey did not "beat out" or replace dun, chestnut, or black-- the horse would be dun chestnut or black (or bay, or whatever else) and then ALSO grey. Its just that as the greying progresses, making white hairs replace the colored hairs, it becomes more difficult and finally impossible to SEE the original color-- but the horse is still possesses all the genetics that made it dun or chestnut or black or whatever.


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## daretodream (Oct 31, 2009)

Plains Drifter- Your filly is adorable...


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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

I believe there can be a huge difference from a foal to when they grow up! Here's an exemple with my mare 

As a foal, a chestnut color with spotted blanket in 2007









Then a little older color darkened and has black hair! Prob 2008 or 2009? not sure how old she was there









and here this was in May 2012 the first day i got her









Now that is from this summer, july or august 2012









And finally, this winter, december 2012









There's a huge difference from a foal to all grown up! I swear than when i saw those pics of her as a foal i had to really look at the shape and place of the spots to really know it's really her  And yep it's the same horse


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## roxxy (May 4, 2011)

LP - Example
Here's mine when he was a foal - before changing - and now, he was born a bay near leopard and now his colouring on his neck and face has roaned out.. but he still has spots underneath.. he won't get the colouring back on his neck/face


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## roxxy (May 4, 2011)

And here is greying gene example.. which really annoys me! why you'd want to cross an appaloosa to a grey I don't know i see too many people buying this 'appaloosa' going on about it's colour not realising it's highly likely to fade!


















This horse will probably end up being a full grey..


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## roxxy (May 4, 2011)

LP - My mare as a foal.. and recently..


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## roxxy (May 4, 2011)

I forgot to add this is the gelding head colour this year.. it seems slightly darker than his last years summer coat face colour (pictured above)

2/3years (left) , 2 Summers ago (right)








This summer (age 6)


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## MissColors (Jul 17, 2011)

My boy is graying out also. At least its noticeable to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elizabeth Bowers (Jan 26, 2012)

I don't have pics of my mom's Appy mare, but i remember looking at them so vividly as if yesterday. Magic was registered Appaloosa, both sire and dam were too (i don't recall their names anymore). Magic was born solid black with a star and two socks on her hinds, out of a chestnut leopard mare, i never met the stallion. At 6mos Magic has started to grey, at 1yr she turned chestnut roan. At 2yrs she turned grey again, but with dark mane and tail and lower legs. Then 3 she had some leopard spotting, but was still mostly grey. By the time she was four she was totally grey with some light chestnut points, and a 'bloody shoulder marking'. At 5 she was totally white, no other colors on her but her 'bloody shoulder' marking on her right shoulder. She never changed after that. I never knew a horse could change so many colors. And all of her foals did the same no matter what color, they ALL greyed out. It was quite interesting to watch them grow up and change colors, and guess what they would look like by the next year. 
Wish i had pics to show ya'll LOL


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## Spotted Eventer (Feb 19, 2013)

I have a friend who previously bred Apps and I have heard of Appy's roaning out. As in they are a chestnut with a blanket, then they turn to a leopard App or they loose some of the chestnut coloring. I have only heard of it happening in a horse that was at least a few years old. From what I have heard it doesn't usually happen in a colt like that.
Hope that helps


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## Southern Grace (Feb 15, 2013)

Horses can grey out that fast, not common, but they can, so the horse Rayzee saw could actually be the same grey'd out.

Appys and change in pattern, so a leopard can loose spots, appearing almost white, and at times, these changes can still be seen mid-shift in a different coat (summer or winter). So the spots may only be visible in the winter, and appear white in the summer or visa-versa.


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## Southern Grace (Feb 15, 2013)

Roxxy - Warrior (the black leopard horse you have pictures of), is not grey, nor does he have grey heritage. Warrior is a Friesian appaloosa cross (3/4 Friesian). He has the leopard gene, and therefore is loosing spots with age. He will likely be solid white in his 20s, but it is not a grey gene. You see his pink nose, he is actually going white, not grey.


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## Animallover707 (Jan 23, 2013)

Lol when i got my appy mare she was a solid bay with one tiny spot, now she is all different colors, her entire body is covered in spots from head to toe. she has black spots dark brown spots caramel spots white spots and she is like a reddish bay color but is starting to turn white. her hooves also have stripes in them.


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## roxxy (May 4, 2011)

Southern Grace said:


> Roxxy - Warrior (the black leopard horse you have pictures of), is not grey, nor does he have grey heritage. Warrior is a Friesian appaloosa cross (3/4 Friesian). He has the leopard gene, and therefore is loosing spots with age. He will likely be solid white in his 20s, but it is not a grey gene. You see his pink nose, he is actually going white, not grey.


No appaloosa looses it's spots with age unless it carries the greying gene... the spots can 'roan' in an appaloosa but they will not disappear..

The Friesian will end up grey (you don't get 'white' horses), his mum carried the 'grey' gene which then got passed onto him, each year he gets lighter and lighter, just like a grey horse would, but with him his spots get lighter and lighter and eventually it's highly likely his spots will disappear completely


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Warriors dam was/is a grey Appaloosa. That is where he received the grey gene from. Which is a pity as his color was so pretty as a foal. 

Varnish does not roan out spots. Vanrish will roan out any solid area of the coat revealing "holes" aka spots in the pattern that would have been visible if the horse were fully blanketed/"leopard."


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

NdAppy said:


> Warriors dam was/is a grey Appaloosa. That is where he received the grey gene from. Which is a pity as his color was so pretty as a foal.
> 
> Varnish does not roan out spots. Vanrish will roan out any solid area of the coat revealing "holes" aka spots in the pattern that would have been visible if the horse were fully blanketed/"leopard."


Correctamundo...if an Appy's spots color out it is grey - or very, very, old, but rarely will they color out all the way due to old age type greying...in fact I have never seen one grey out all the way due to age...


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## roxxy (May 4, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Warriors dam was/is a grey Appaloosa. That is where he received the grey gene from. Which is a pity as his color was so pretty as a foal.
> 
> Varnish does not roan out spots. Vanrish will roan out any solid area of the coat revealing "holes" aka spots in the pattern that would have been visible if the horse were fully blanketed/"leopard."


I meant like 'mouldy' spots in my post  where some varnishes/roans develop white spots/speckles in there spots which sometimes gets mistaken for greying but its not


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