# Thirty mile ride...in one day?



## FoxyRider22 (Feb 26, 2013)

Ok, so to surprise my mother at her horrible job I was thinking of riding over to surprise her at work. It would be thirty miles round trip and mainly rode riding. The horse I would like to take is my 13 y/o perch/Morgan cross. We have ridden all over everywhere although we have never gone 30 miles in a single day before(we have gone about 23) Normally we would camp out however I was not able to get permission from any farm owners to do so. 

My main issue is that she used to be a work horse and now has slight breathing issues...the vet has never gone into too much detail over what is wrong with her. She's never had any issues she just snorts as she breaths and gets a bit tired out. I'm just worried such a long ride might cause some new kind of reaction to arouse...

Any thoughts? I'd ask people close to me but this really needs to be a surprise, the vet says since she has always done fine riding everyday I shouldn't worry at all about her breathing....
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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

While 30 miles isn't a lot in my opinion I'd be worried about the breathing. How far do you ride on a normal ride? How long ago was the 23 mile ride and how did she do? Without knowing what's wrong and what her regular work load is its hard to say.
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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

30 miles is an LD Endurance ride! If you're doing it in one day, I would recommend you BOTH be in shape for it. I think you could do it, if she is fit, but a breathing issue plus the summer heat concerns me, especially in a heavy bodied horse. 

Can you do some long rides to condition a bit and try it out beforehand? It wouldn't be fair to her to find out that yes, she can get there, only to run into issues halfway home and be stuck choosing between pushing her and running into metabolic issues or injury and getting home any time soon... They wouldn't have to be 30 miles, but confirming that yes, she can still do that 23mi without issue would certainly put me much more at ease if I were in your shoes.


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## FoxyRider22 (Feb 26, 2013)

I appreciate your responses! We ride on average between 5 and 10 miles a day and ride on at least one 20 mile ride a week so I'm pretty sure she is pretty well conditioned... as for her breathing I was thinking of taking several breaks and going on the long ride on a cool day....
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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

Are you familar with taking P&Rs? Just check her each time you take a break, If she shows signs of stress. be ready to turn around or call somebody with a trailer to pick you up.

I've done 50 mile endurance rides in 5 hours. But most of my rides are more in the 20+ miles in 6-7 hours. Thats what taking photos, eating lunch etc does to your time.Not all horses are able to hold a trot for 50 miles.

If she is in shape, you take your time and give her ample opportunities to drink and a little grazing along the way, you should be fine.


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

30 miles isn't too much based on the regular riding you do. The breathing thing may be a factor - ask your vet what he/she things. Since they are treating the condition they would be in the best position to say if your horse if physically up to it.

I think your biggest problem/challenge is that most of the riding will be a roads.

Roads are harder on the joints than dirt/grass. That's a lot of physical stress. Thirty miles on pavement is much worse than thirty miles on a dirt trail.

Along the same lines, pavement does not provide as good a footing. Some shoes also slip on pavement making it difficult for the horse to walk. Not that big a deal on short rides, but close to 30 miles of it will add up.

Finally, you probably will not be trotting much or cantering at all on a road. That means the entire ride will take a very long time. Thirty miles at 5mph is six hours of riding. That does not include rest stops or the time you spend with the person you are visiting. You are looking at something like an eight hour day.

It would be much better all around if there wasn't so much road riding involved.


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## FoxyRider22 (Feb 26, 2013)

I've got the entire ride mapped out...and luckily there's a lot of open grassy land all along the road so her feet can have a break! She just got new shoes and boy are they slippery! Anyways I was planning on taking about 8-9 hours total for the ride (there is no way I'd trot/lope get anywheres near a rode....I've heard about so many bad accidents it's not even funny! I've had people honk and swerve and motorcycles speed up right next to us to try and scare too, so speed would not help!) ...I do appreciate you guys commenting with your opinions! 

One thing tho...I forgot to ask my vet, but have you guys heard anything bad about letting a horse that's hot drink? I had some people tell me it will ruin the horses feet while others say that it's just crazy talk....I've been refusing my horses drinks after long rides till they cool off...but is there really a potential danger here? Have you guys even heard of this? How long should I let my horse cool down for on our ride before I give her a drink? I've gone on a 3 day 50 mile ride and the people I was with never gave an ounce of thought about this issue sooooo...any thoughts???
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## Malice (Mar 10, 2012)

Letting your horse drink while they are hot and it causing problems is an old wives tale. Let your horse drink, they will be fine.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Sevastion27 said:


> have you guys heard anything bad about letting a horse that's hot drink? I had some people tell me it will ruin the horses feet while others say that it's just crazy talk....I've been refusing my horses drinks after long rides till they cool off...


Please let your horse drink!!

I have had people tell me not only the above, but also refuse to let their horses drink out of puddles or even creeks out on trail because they "don't know the water is safe." For me, if the horse is willing to drink, I am more than happy to let them, regardless of the appeal of the water to me. My mare prefers scummy puddles with tadpoles.. we joke its a protein source. I don't worry about a stray tadpole but I sure do worry about dehydration.


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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

Hot horses and cold water is a great way to colic them. It is NOT and OLD wifes tale. Rule of thumb, they can drink while hot if they are going to be moving for the next 15 to 20 minutes, otherwise, no water until they are completely cool.

If you don't believe it, just be around any camp ground where they bring em back in to camp hot, and give em a drink of cold water, and an hour later have a horse that has colic. Why do you think the race horses are cooled they way they are: walk, drink, walk, drink, etc, until they are cool?

I'd be very concerned with the hard surface riding for very long distances. Especially, if the horse is not accustomed to that kind of riding. A lot of buggy horses will do this, but they have been conditioned. 

If you can average 7 to 8 miles per hour without the horse being overly stressed, I'd think you would not have any problems, BUT you'll have a tough time doing this if you have to walk all of the time.


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## FoxyRider22 (Feb 26, 2013)

Well, the horse I'm taking is a retired buggy horse so she knows what riding on pavement is. As for my water issue, I've decided on letting her drink from creeks and such for the ride and then let her cool down when we get back before she drinks anything...as for the colic issue...I've never understood it. I've heard that letting horses eat grass will make them colic while others say it's from eating hay....now you guys are throwing water into the colic issue! Please explain!!!
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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

"Regarding hosing down a hot horse. It is not true that hosing a hot horse will cause tying up, also known as exertional rhabdomyolysis, azoturia, or Monday morning sickness. This serious condition occurs for two main reasons: either the horse has an underlying myopathy such as a breed specific polysaccharide storage disease which basically causes pathologic muscle breakdown, or the horse has been physically overexerted beyond his limits. Simply hosing a hot horse off contributes to neither one of these scenarios. Instead, it will help lower a horse’s body temperature and remove sweat-encrusted particulate material from the skin, which can be a cause for dermatologic issues"

"*Spasmodic colic:* Some cases of colic are due to increased intestinal contractions, the abnormal spasms causing the intestines to contract painfully. 

Prevention of colic 
do not feed or water horses before they have cooled out


*References: 

Reeves, M.J. and Salman, M (1993). Risk factors for equine colic identified by means of a multicentered case-control study. Proc. Am. Assoc. Eq. Pract. 39 93. 

White, N.A. (1994) Epidemiology of colic. Equine Research Centre's Farm Management Proceedings. 48 Cohen, N.D., et al (1995). Case control study of the association between various management factors and development of colic in horses. J. Am. Vet. Med. Assoc. 206 (5) 667.* 
"


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

Not letting horses drink after exercise is bullcookies IMO and IME. Every AERC endurance ride I have ever been to involves dozens of hot, tired horses drinking gallons and gallons of water, at whatever temperature the streams and troughs happen to be and at whatever temperature and point of exercise the horses happened to be. If it was a problem, don't you think endurance riders would be on top of it? I could counter the 'spasmodic colic' c/p with one on 'impaction colic' which is most often corrollated with horses NOT drinking and dehydration! Hardworking horses need water. 

Now, taking a horse direct from heavy exercise to a standstill (tied, in a stall, etc) is bad news for the horse, no matter if they're drinking water or not, so walking horses and cooling them out properly is definitely something I can get behind. But if they're willing to drink, they should be allowed do, the old scenes out of Black Beauty notwithstanding.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

30 miles is a pretty long ride. Maybe not for endurance folks, but for me it would be. I can do 15 and just start to feel tired. 30 would be a lot for me and my horses personally. 

I don't think I've done much over 20 miles in a single ride, if that. But I might be a wuss. :lol:


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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

"Not letting horses drink after exercise is bullcookies IMO and IME."

Please read carefully, I DID NOT SAY THIS. I said no water if hot and left idle.

"Hardworking horses need water."

Actually, that is not a true statement either. Hardworking horses can go all day without water with no ill effects. Now, how you give them water at the end of the day is very critical. Either walk, small drink, walk, small drink, until cool or no water at all until cool.

The important message is : HOT IDLE HORSES AND WATER do not mix, they will colic, more times than not.

30 miles is not very far, if the horses are in condition. It is not uncommon for us to ride longer than that on any given day on the trails. The longest we ever did in one day, by accident, not by choice, was 60 plus miles. Now that was a 14 hour day of hard riding, on very well conditioned horses. And there was no water available on that particular day. The horses did just fine, and went on a 25 mile ride/day for the next 4 days.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

bbsmfg3 said:


> "Hardworking horses need water."
> 
> Actually, that is not a true statement either. * Hardworking horses can go all day without water with no ill effects.*


I guess this depends on your definition of "hard work." There is no way in hell any of my horses could survive the work I ask of them during an event without water all day.

At any distance ride I have ever attended, a horse not drinking all day would be a red flag emergency. Hell, I have seen horses who _have_ been drinking all day--just not enough--wind up needing treatment.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

I don't do endurance rides, but I do trail ride and last year my average was 11 miles per ride.

I always encourage my mare to drink every time we come to decent water.


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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

"I guess this depends on your definition of "hard work." There is no way in hell any of my  horses could survive the work I ask of them during an event without water all day.

At any distance ride I have ever attended, a horse not drinking all day would be a red flag emergency. Hell, I have seen horses who _have_ been drinking all day--just not enough--wind up needing treatment."

If your horse could not survive the work you ask of them without water for the day, YOU are asking too much for the conditioning of the horse.
Or, there is something wrong with the horse.

I like to water on the trail too, but if there's not water available, it should not be a problem. So long as you do not exceed the physical limits of the horse.


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

"I like to water on the trail too, but if there's not water available, it should not be a problem. So long as you do not exceed the physical limits of the horse." 

I guess we have different standards. I expect a well conditioned horse to be able to carry a rider 25-100 miles in one day over varied terrain and in all temperatures and still be sound and able to continue at the end. I would never expect a horse to be able to do that without water. I would think someone was crazy and trying to kill their horse if they expected to do that without watering the horse properly. 

I do not consider the task (with proper watering) outside the physical limits of a properly conditioned horse, but I would consider it outside the (safe) limits of any horse if they did not allow/offer water. I think I recall that a horse working hard in hot weather may lose 4 gallons of water an hour. Put that over a typical 6-7 hour 50 mile ride and that's 25+ gallons. No horse can sustain that without drinking, but they can and do sustain it with ease when properly hydrated.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

bbsmfg3 said:


> If your horse could not survive the work you ask of them without water for the day, YOU are asking too much for the conditioning of the horse. Or, there is something wrong with the horse.


So you would expect a human runner to run a marathon without water or else consider them not conditioned properly?


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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

"So you would expect a human runner to run a marathon without water or else consider them not conditioned properly?"

Don't mix apples and oranges. Humans are not built like horses, and do not have the ability to maintain fluids like a horse. Horses weight alone is normally 5 or more times that of a mere human.

And no, I don't expect you not to allow water, but if it is not available the horse will do ok, so long as you don't over do it. And yes, if your horse could not survive the day without water, you ARE asking too much. The fact that you don't think they could survive is self revealing. You either do not understand or you are abusing the horse, I believe the former is probably the case.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Letting your horse drink whenever and however much he can will not hurt him, regardless of how hot he is. However, impaction colic caused by dehydration is a very real risk, especially if you are riding in hot weather and the horse is sweating a lot.


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

bbsmfg3 said:


> And yes, if your horse could not survive the day without water, you ARE asking too much. The fact that you don't think they could survive is self revealing. You either do not understand or you are abusing the horse, I believe the former is probably the case.


I am not sure exactly how to read this, as my impression of endurance riders as a whole is that we are all pretty convinced that not watering our horses at a ride and dehydration can and will cause medical problems and/or death. No, our horses could not do what we ask without water. Trying to make them do so WOULD be abuse IMPO. But it sounds like you either think that a) we are underestimating our horses ability to do without (they could do it) or b) we are abusing them by asking them to do more than they would be able to do without any water to drink (they couldn't do it).

I don't think that in this case, comparing horses and humans IS apples and oranges though. We have heat categories and water requirements in the Army, because all evidence shown is that people who are hydrated well can do MORE work without harm or risk of injury then people who are not. Mammals are mammals, the same is true of both my working dogs and horses. It makes no sense to say that proper hydration is not a factor that allows horses to safely do more work as well. Ie, proper hydration improves/enables good performance and harder work for an extended time all other things being equal. Horses are many times our weight and size, and their total water requirements are proportionally higher given that, but on an even weight basis (mL/kg/hr), we're really not too different in our requirements.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_As mentioned, hydration status also influences the efficiency of heat loss. With dehydration, the cardiovascular system is less able to move heat to the skin surface, and less fluid is available for sweating. This means that a dehydrated horse will overheat faster than a well-hydrated horse. 
_
_Dehydration can, in particular, be a problem for endurance horses or horses engaged in other long work sessions. In hot conditions, horses can lose 2.6-3.9 gallons (10-15 liters) of sweat fluid per hour of exercise, so during long rides you should let your horse drink as often as possible...

...Another important part of the cooling process is drinking. Traditionally, horsemen have not allowed "hot" horses to drink because of a perceived risk of colic and cold-water founder (laminitis). However, with the possible exception of very hard galloping exercise (e.g., Thoroughbred racing), it is safe for horses to drink right after exercise. In fact, the thirst drive decreases with time after exercise, so offer water as soon as is practical. Let the horse drink up to one to two gallons during the first 15 minutes of recovery._" 

Chilling Out After Exercise | TheHorse.com

"_*Myth: "Horses Must Be Cooled Down After Exercise Before Allowing Them to Drink."* 

For generations horsemen have been warned against allowing their "hot" horses to drink because of a perceived risk of colic and cold-water founder. However, with the possible exception of very hard galloping, it is safe for horses to drink right after exercise. In fact, recent research has shown that withholding water after exercise may be more of a disservice because it prolongs dehydration. Horses are more likely to drink and replenish fluid lost in sweat soon after exercise when their thirst drive is high, compared to waiting until they are "cool" and have lost interest in drinking. 

The caution about hot horses and cold water probably originated from complications experienced by field hunters. At midhunt checkpoints, horses were allowed to drink deeply from frozen streams after hours of galloping and jumping. Although complications were linked to horses drinking while being hot, they likely resulted from winter-frigid water temperatures on top of extreme exertion. Understandably, great gulps of ice-cold water could shock a hot horse's system, but most horses aren't ridden this hard, nor are they given such cold water. 

Dehydration can be quite harmful to your horse, so offer water as soon as is practical after your ride. Unless you have been running your horse hard, give him access to tap water right from the start of the cooling out-period. It may take a few minutes for his thirst mechanism to kick in, so allow him to drink his fill and then keep coming back to the bucket as long as he wants a refill. If you ride over long distances, or for prolonged periods of time, stop periodically and allow your horse to drink during your ride._"

Horse Feeding Myths and Misconceptions - Engormix

"_Among horsemen, the practice of allowing a hot horse to drink often is frowned upon because of the risk of colic and "cold water founder." Although I do not recommend offering water to a horse immediately after very hard exercise, such as racing, my experience (and those of others) with endurance-type work has been that the first one to two minutes after exercise is the best opportunity for rehydration. When offered water during that period, horses will readily consume six to 10 liters of water. Importantly, water consumption is higher if the water bucket is offered right after stopping. Make sure water is available to the horse as soon as possible after entering a rest stop and at the completion of exercise._"

Fluids And Electrolytes | TheHorse.com


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

" You either do not understand or you are abusing the horse, I believe the former is probably the case."

I think this ^^ is pretty harsh and uncalled for. IMHO abuse is NOT offering your horse water. If its not available fine, different scenario but if we come across a creek and my horse wants to drink then it would be abuse to deny her that. Just because a horse can go without water doesn't mean you should make them.
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## skiafoxmorgan (Mar 5, 2014)

What a horse can tolerate and survive as a wild animal ambling across the plains is very different from what a horse in an intense strenuous competition can survive. Obviously, few long distance riders want to abuse their horses, which is why they are offered water. If a horse is dehydrated at a vet check and showing distress, they won't be allowed to continue. NO, I don't believe a horse can do 100 miles in a day, carrying a rider and saddle, on varied terrain, in often high temperatures, without water safely. One horse might could do it. Another would collapse. But no one wants to push their horse to the point of collapse, so arguing that they don't really need water unless they are being overworked is stupid. The very nature of endurance is to see how far how fast they can go, while still being able to continue. If YOU feel compelled to take your horse on an endurance race and not offer water, I wonder how long you'd last before vet pulls you.


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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

"_*Myth: "Horses Must Be Cooled Down After Exercise Before Allowing Them to Drink."* 

If you believe this is a myth, just go to any camp ground where there are a lot of horses and you can doctor the coliced and/or tied up horses that come in hot from the trail and the owner thinks a cold drink, cold wash down, and the stall is appropriate.

If they are hot and get a drink they need exercise after the drink, or your going to have problems more times than not. 

No amount of excuses or high tech info, will change that.

And to the eventers. If your horse can not go all day without water and be just fine your pushing them too hard. Yes, it's fine to give them water during the event. I DO NOT recommend testing the scenario, but you really need to re-think how hard your working them if you truly think they could not go all day without water and be OK.
_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I've got a book dedicated to equine colic. I cannot find any reference in it to drinking cold water after a hard ride causing colic. Nor could I find any study backing the idea. However, there are many studies indicating insufficient water in the gut can cause colic...


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

bbsmfg3 said:


> Don't mix apples and oranges. Humans are not built like horses, and do not have the ability to maintain fluids like a horse. Horses weight alone is normally 5 or more times that of a mere human.


Actually, a lot of research that was first done for human endurance athletes (marathoners and ultra marathoners), has been found to be totally applicable to equine endurance athletes now that funding is available for such. I was taught that the human body is roughly 70% water and the equine body is roughly 80% water.. that isn't much of a difference proportionately.

Can you explain your statement regarding "the ability to maintain fluid like a horse" for me? I have never heard of any water-storage capacity that horses have above and beyond that which is absorbed into their system on a cellular level (same as people).


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

bbsmfg3 said:


> _And to the eventers. If your horse can not go all day without water and be just fine your pushing them too hard. Yes, it's fine to give them water during the event. I DO NOT recommend testing the scenario, but you really need to re-think how hard your working them if you truly think they could not go all day without water and be OK._


I am not an eventer. I am an endurance rider. I know my horses could not go all day at a competition without water, nor would I ever ask them to as I have seen the consequences of horses who simply drank too little.. the implications of no drinking at all is horrifying. 

But again, I don't see how asking them to perform an athletic task with all the support I can give them (water, food, electrolyte supplementation, tack which fits, appropriate foot protection, etc) is in need of re-thinking or in any way abusive. Nor would anybody I know start a competition knowing their horse would have no water available for the entire event.

I sure couldn't go all day at a competition without water..


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^Phantom, I'm right there with you. I don't ride endurance, but I do ranch work and frequently spend 8+ hours in the saddle in triple digit temperatures, doing all 3 gaits and occasional extreme exertion such as sprinting or pulling heavy things. Every time I come to a creek or a windmill I offer my horses water, never had one colic after drinking his fill, even when it's ice cold well water.

However, I've known many people who had colic "scares" and a couple that lost horses due to severe dehydration after a day's work with no access to water.


All that being said, we are really just arguing with a brick wall. From what I've seen of bbsmfg3's posts around here, he's dead set that everything done and every wive's tale believed 50+ years ago is gospel, regardless of more current scientific knowledge that solidly disproves it. 

Contrary to popular belief in some circles, Black Beauty didn't get everything right :wink:.


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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

" regardless of more current scientific knowledge that solidly disproves it"

Too bad Science is not there in the middle of the night when these horses colic from the hot horse given cold water, and no exercise after it.

" Every time I come to a creek or a windmill I offer my horses water, never had one colic after drinking his fill, even when it's ice cold well water."

It they were hot, just how many times, did you give them this drink and then let them stand for an hour or more after the drink?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

bbsmfg3 said:


> It they were hot, just how many times, did you give them this drink and then let them stand for an hour or more after the drink?


LOL, every time I ride. At the end of their working day, they are given the opportunity to drink their fill from whatever water is accessible, then promptly loaded into the trailer for the ride home....or promptly tied up for "patience training"...or promptly turned back out into their paddock, depending on the individual horse and what his training needs or where we are located at the time.

Again, even horses that are super hot and dripping sweat, given the chance to drink all they wish, then immediately put in a position where they move very little or not at all, never had an instance of colic from it.

But, maybe I'm just used to hardier horses than you are :? :lol:.


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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

"But, maybe I'm just used to hardier horses than you are"

I doubt your's are any harder than ours. We seldom have problems with ours, but I can sure show you a bunch that have problems. Mine never get a drink while hot, and then stand, never ever.

Hope you never do have a problem. A fair percentage of those that do have problems never completely recover.


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

The only thing I can think of is like people if we drink too much cold water after overexerting ourselves, it makes you nauseated and sick aka colic in horses. So what this tells me is that the hot horse given cold water who colicked was overexerted to begin with. Which IMO could have been avoided by just giving water to begin with. A dehydrated horse given too much water at once will colic aka a hot horse given water. This tells me bbs's horses are overworked not ours.
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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

countrylove said:


> The only thing I can think of is like people if we drink too much cold water after overexerting ourselves, it makes you nauseated and sick aka colic in horses. So what this tells me is that the hot horse given cold water who colicked was overexerted to begin with. Which IMO could have been avoided by just giving water to begin with. A dehydrated horse given too much water at once will colic aka a hot horse given water. This tells me bbs's horses are overworked not ours.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Correct.

And most horses are not idiots, if the water is too cold, they hold it in their mouths for a little until it warms up. I see mine do this all the time in winter. 

Most everyone I know is always encouraging the horse to drink, never withholding water. My horse sometimes gets to nervous to drink, and on those rides I always know I'm going to have to have a shorter ride so he doesn't dehydrate.


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## evenworld (Jan 21, 2014)

I always insist that Keeping your horse healthy be put in the first place.


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