# Clone foal



## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

I was messing about on google and typed in Gem Twist, a horse ridden by John Whitaker. I found a picture of a foal and wondered whether it was a picture of him as a foal... but it turned out to be a clone of him.

The Horse | Clone of Show Jumper Gem Twist Born









and Gem Twist himself









More pictures of the clone I found









Does it look like he is greying out to you?

I also found out that cloned horses do not have to same markings as their 'parent', although they will have to gene to have them.


----------



## GreyRay (Jun 15, 2010)

WHOA! Too cool..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Cloned animals rarely look like their donors.

That's a myth people like to perpetuate, especially the folks who try to talk you into spending boatloads of money to clone a beloved animal.

Cloned animals are _genetically_ identical, not physically. It would also take replicating the donor animal's exact life experiences to even have a chance at the clone having the same temperament and outlook. Which is impossible.


----------



## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

Yeah I agree. Clones are renowned for having health problems so I don't agree with it for that reason. But people that think that they horse will be the 'same' as the parent in temperament and talent are kidding themselves! 

The clone will grey out though? As Gem Twist was grey...


----------



## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

Most clones are made purely for breeding purposes as they will not perform the same as the original & in most cases don't even look the same. Scamper (world famous barrel horse) was cloned & although he's the same color as the clone, the clone has markings that Scamper does not.
Smart Little Lena was cloned 13 times!
This particular colt will shed out, but he may not be the same shade of grey.


----------



## ilovesonya (Oct 12, 2009)

I think I read somewhere that clones cannot be registered with the AQHA? I'm not sure if I am remembering correctly though...


----------



## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

You are right, clones cant' be registered with AQHA at this time and neither can their offspring.


----------



## ilovesonya (Oct 12, 2009)

So there isn't really a point in cloning your AQHA. You can't register the foal, so what's the point?


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

littlehorse01 said:


> why are there cats and dogs on the horse forum.... pretty wierd


Because cats and dogs go with horses, silly man! 

So do goats, chickens, ducks, peacocks, guinea fowl, and assorted other critters.


----------



## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Hmmm, the geneticist in me is curious as to how they are 'cloned'. If it is done using somatic cells (i.e. not sperm or egg) then they _should_ be genetically identical. Interesting.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

sarahver said:


> Hmmm, the geneticist in me is curious as to how they are 'cloned'. If it is done using somatic cells (i.e. not sperm or egg) then they _should_ be genetically identical. Interesting.


There's no sperm involved at all, just the cellular matter from the donor.

They destroy the egg's DNA, and then insert the donor material into the blank egg.

So yes, the only genetic material the clone gets is from the donor cells.

I can see all sorts of uses for cloned appendages, but not necessarily the whole animal or human. 

It's a fascinating science, but far more complex than I'm able to understand.


----------



## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Aha, thank you google. Somatic cells were taken from chest tissue and implanted into a donor egg which is an egg that has had the nucleus removed and thus all the genetic material also. Therefore the embryo develops as a genetic twin to gem twist. The egg was then implanted into a surrogate mare and allowed to develop.

Apparently Gem Twist was born with the same coloring as this foal (bay with a star) and this foal is expected to gray out to the same color as Gem Twist himself (Cloned horses could offer insight into DNA possibilities). However there are no guarantees that the foal will replicate the greatness of Gem Twist due to differences in his environment, classic question of nature versus nurture. Also as someone else suggested, there are numerous physical implications associated with the development of clones that modern science has not been able to address as yet so it will be interesting to see how the little guy fares.


----------



## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

There are other factors to consider such as the influence of mitochondrial DNA from the donor egg which is NOT removed. Although mitochondrial DNA only accounts for less than 1% of the genome (no reference here, feel free to check as my memory may not serve me as well as I would like to think) it does have an influence on the development of the embryo and later on when the organism is fully developed. Mitochondrial DNA is mostly responsible for energy production in the cell so this would be controlled by the Mitochondrial genes inherited from the donor egg. 

Still a very interesting topic. Personally I don't think there is much point cloning performance horses as there is much more to be said for replicating the training and environment in which the horse was raised. Many horses have the athleticism required to be top level competitors, it is really the training and upbringing that makes the champion IMO.


----------



## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

sarahver said:


> Still a very interesting topic. Personally I don't think there is much point cloning performance horses as there is much more to be said for replicating the training and environment in which the horse was raised. Many horses have the athleticism required to be top level competitors, it is really the training and upbringing that makes the champion IMO.


Nearly all clones are created purely for breeding purposes, not to compete. Like for ex: they cloned Scamper becuse he is a gelding, and have cloned several others including Smart Little Lena & certain famous mares just to keep the line going even after the real horse has passed on.


----------



## Starlet (Jun 3, 2010)

I'm against cloning whether it's for humans or animals. However it is a facinating science. They generally have health issues though I believe.


----------



## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

Starlet said:


> I'm against cloning whether it's for humans or animals. However it is a facinating science. They generally have health issues though I believe.


Yes, I agree


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Ignoring the health factor, if you want to know more about the ways and means of how clones can be the same but different, I would direct you toward studies of ID twins. Whilst ID twins share the same DNA (the egg splits after being fertilised) it is common for them to have different features such as freckles, different shaped faces etc. While DNA sets the blueprint, our environment can have vast impact on development.


----------



## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

Changes in identical twins are usually caused by environmental factors. E.g. freckles caused by sun light exposure. Identical twins are genetically identical but their make up is different.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

speedy da fish said:


> Changes in identical twins are usually caused by environmental factors. E.g. freckles caused by sun light exposure. Identical twins are genetically identical but their make up is different.


Exactly.


----------



## bloxus5 (Aug 21, 2010)

So there isn't really a point in cloning your AQHA. You can't register the foal, so what's the point? 

The idea reason would be to conserve traits, alot of breeders, especally working breeders, do not care about registeration, thats why 
Im always seeing registered stock horses that look like mustangs, POas, Paso finos... um even cob sometimes. The club doesnt DNa test to detrimine the parents last time i checked its very easy to lie on paperwork. theyll will do it to, if that old mustang mare works and is more mentaly and physiclly sound, then that miss dual doc granddaughter.  dont blame them...


----------



## lyssabear (Feb 18, 2011)

thats odd, never seen this before - pretty cool!


----------



## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

i read an article on cloning in practical horse magazine(i'm pretty sure it was in that one, but it could have been in dressage today) a few months ago. If i could afford it i would like to clone my horse Blue, i got him when he was in his 20's so i would love to have him but with a clean slate, he had developed a few negative traits before i got him(such a weaving and being barn sour). But he is a fantastic horse even with having a really crappy former owner, so i just think that if he had been trained better he could have been that much better a horse ...it's not like it matters anyway because it's so insanely expensive, but Blue is old and cloning him would keep him alive in a way, i know it's silly, but i can't imagine not having him, i got him when i was 12, he was my first horse(along with the mare we bought with him, but she was put down 6-7 years ago)and i've had him nearly 13 years, i think of him as my first born child lol


----------



## AppyLuva (Oct 25, 2010)

I've seen a clone of a dog, but never have I seen a clone of a horse. That's really cool. Thank you for sharing.


----------



## noogie the pony (Oct 8, 2010)

how much does it cost? very interesting topic!


----------



## GOBLIN73 (Feb 22, 2011)

Very interesting. Does anyone know how much it costs? And what are the health issues that were mentioned?


----------



## Katze (Feb 21, 2011)

WOW totally freaky and cool, in a morbid kinda way lol, and yeah anyone know the costs and health problems involved?


----------



## Citrus (Feb 26, 2010)

I read an online article that said the first "copy" is $150,00 US and $90,000 US for the second "copy". It is ViaGen or something like that and they are based out of Austin TX.


----------



## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

noogie the pony said:


> how much does it cost? very interesting topic!


I still have the magazine in the magazine pile on my desk, i'll try to dig it out tomorrow, i have like 5 copies of 5 different mags stacked in front of me, so hopefully i can find it tomorrow lol


----------



## Team Penner (Nov 14, 2009)

I believe that NCHA accepts clones.


----------



## cfralic (Jan 17, 2011)

It was the Practical Horseman with the picture of a chestnut horse's face straight-on and a black background, if that helps. Mine's at home.


----------

