# Your opinion on Parelli



## GodGirl11

I've been looking into the Parelli training method and its my favorite so far...what do you guys think? Has anyone gone to the Horse & Soul thing? Thanks!!


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## SRose

*Tried It*

Hey GG,
I practiced his style of horsemanship and even had a few lessons with a certified instructor of his. He has some good information but I don't agree with all of his methods. I even turned my carrot stick into a flag because it resembled a whip too much for my taste. Natural Horsemanship has a lot of different mentors, Parelli just marketed himself well enough to make a huge name for himself. His style works for some (he wouldn't be where he was if that wasn't the case) personally I'm not fond of him but that doesn't mean that he wouldn't work for you. I say give it a try, it didn't take me long to figure out that he wasn't my style and I'm sure you can do the same one way or the other.
Hope this helps, feel free to ask any questions if you'd like.
Sammy


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## loveduffy

I like the way dose some thing I take from a few horseman and see what works for me that is what I do


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## 2BigReds

I like a lot of the exercises that Parelli teaches, but not all. There's a very part-time but certified Parelli trainer at our barn who does some great things, but at times I look at her and think, _really...?_

Just the other day she came to work with one of her client horses whom I have previously worked with under a collaborative trainer as a groom. The horses were still eating, and this horse gets protective of his food. Supposedly the "Parelli way" of catching a horse is standing at the entrance of the stall and waiting for the horse to come to you-never walk into the stall because that's "his space" or something. Well long story short, that didn't work and she had to walk away and let him finish eating before he would come to her. He even got aggressive before he was finished!

Now don't get me wrong, she has come a LONG way with this horse mentally (he was with a nearly abusive trainer before his current two and was defensive over everything), but SERIOUSLY??? Fat chance I'm going to just walk away from my horse and let him eat after he tries to double-barrel me! That's a pretty good reward for extremely dangerous behavior!

ETA: Somebody PLEASE tell me that this is not a method Parelli actually teaches!!!


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## BBBCrone

My opinion? Not a fan. But I don't "follow" anyone. So if it works for you .. great. But there are others that are much wiser, more knowledgeable and better at what they do.


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## SRose

2BigReds said:


> I like a lot of the exercises that Parelli teaches, but not all. There's a very part-time but certified Parelli trainer at our barn who does some great things, but at times I look at her and think, _really...?_
> 
> Just the other day she came to work with one of her client horses whom I have previously worked with under a collaborative trainer as a groom. The horses were still eating, and this horse gets protective of his food. Supposedly the "Parelli way" of catching a horse is standing at the entrance of the stall and waiting for the horse to come to you-never walk into the stall because that's "his space" or something. Well long story short, that didn't work and she had to walk away and let him finish eating before he would come to her. He even got aggressive before he was finished!
> 
> Now don't get me wrong, she has come a LONG way with this horse mentally (he was with a nearly abusive trainer before his current two and was defensive over everything), but SERIOUSLY??? Fat chance I'm going to just walk away from my horse and let him eat after he tries to double-barrel me! That's a pretty good reward for extremely dangerous behavior!
> 
> ETA: Somebody PLEASE tell me that this is not a method Parelli actually teaches!!!


Ha, I've had the same kind of WTH moments when I see Parelli students. I agree that not everything he teaches is questionable but there are some things. I can't say if that is an actual thing but when my horse got all aggressive on me over his food I turned my back to him and kicked my leg out. Probably looked like a fool but I figured, if that's what they do in the wild it could work there too, long story short, he got the picture. I did once talk to a Parelli student that was lunging her horse and he would crowd her. She told me that Parelli says to poke him in the shoulder with the carrot stick to move him away. The horse didn't seem amused and stood his ground. I don't know, I held my tongue because she didn't seem to want an opinion on the matter but it makes you wonder.


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## HappyHoofPrints

I studied Parelli and Dennis Reis after sudying John Lyons for years. Then! I found Clinton Anderson to help me Re-Train 2 half Arabs and start my 2 new Arabian babies. Down UnderHorsemanship is the only trainer for me now. Never looked back!


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## Kliment

lol guys, I guess everybody is for himself here.... but you know it really depends on the current case/horse/ppl  

My advice is that you take what you like and what works for you from any of the trainers/clinics you've crossed path with - that way you can gain the most important thing - your own personal experience...

Good luck and have fun


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## Freemare

I am not a fan myself. I am a downunder horsemanship fan. I have all ways been a fan, I had started parelli and found it to be a little bit to friendly.....


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## clairegillies

I love the Parelli methods. does what it says on the box. you can try Parelli Connect free for a month, you can view all of the level 1 on it and have a good look at whats on offer. then you don't have to continue if you don't like it. I'm on there so connect with me if you join.

Claire


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## smrobs

I am a fan of studying methods from any and every trainer you can gain access to. Store everything you see because what doesn't work on your current horse might work on the next one or the one you own 10 years from now...and something that does work on the horse you have now might be a pracitice in futility with your next one.

If you want to stick mainly with Parelli, then go for it, but I would also suggest you watch some stuff from Buck Brannaman and Larry Trocha (both of whom are _much_ better horsemen than PP, IMHO), Stacy Westfall, Craig Cameron (his voice is annoying as heck, but he is a good horseman), etc. Don't limit yourself to only one trainer because that one trainer will only give you a few tools for your toolbox. The more trainers you study, the more tools you end up with, and the more situations you'll be able to handle.


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## clairegillies

I agree with the above post, and also have to say Parelli is a good place to start as it goes from very basics up. another good programme to follow to start from basics to higher levels is Quantum Savvy, they are based in Australia but have an excellent internet site. 

Claire


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## Pegasus1

I personally mainly use Parelli, but study other clinicians as well. I would say that most of what Pat himself says is pretty good stuff. After all he is successful now but came up through a pretty tough career in the horse world. Many years at rodeo for example and then starting literally thousands of horses for a big outfit in the USA. Thus most of what he says has been "tested" with many many horses.
I think that the main reason Parelli gets bad press is 
1) folks hate to think people are making good money out of their hobby, or if they do they should have the decency to hide the fact 
2) so many people say they use his program but don't actually really put lots of effort into studying and following it. They then get into trouble, as you would in any program, and other people see this and say "there you are, Parelli doesn't work". In the UK there are so many people following it that by the laws of average there will be a fair few in this category. But then I see lots of traditional riders not achieving much with their horses either.
3) I would say the majority of my friends who study Parelli came to it in the first place because they had problem horses which traditional training could not fix. Therefore you tend to have a greater proportion of what were originally problem horses in the program than in the general horse population. Combine that with 2) and you will see some bad "Parelli" training and horses. On the other hand all of my friends who have studied diligently have had really good outcomes with their problems.

I also feel that Pat tends to go into much greater depth than some other clinicians, which really suits my personality but puts others off for understandable reasons. From what I have seen of CA he uses similar techniques, teaches the techniques well but gives less background as to how and why they work. I find I personally have to really understand a technique to be able to use it well, for others this is different.

As to the earlier comments about feed time and circling game they don't sound like anything I have been taught. Sometimes I do have to drive Filly out onto the circle as she tends to want to circle as close as possible and would actually prefer to be standing next to me. A gentle reminder with just a lift of the stick is all it takes for her to remember to stay on the 22 foot circle properly, online or at liberty. And frankly I like a horse that would rather be with me than high tailing it into the distance at the first opportunity.


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## Saddlebag

Parelli has moved mountains in reeducating people about horses, that there are better ways of training that don't involve cruelty. A horse's perception of the carrot stick is not of a whip unless he's previously been hit with one. Parelli and others teach that it's an extension of the arm that keeps the handler in a safe zone. I'm all for that.


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## Muppetgirl

Not a fan of Parelli at all......nobodys perfect.....you should explore a lot of different trainers, Larry Trocha for one has a good method and he doesn't speak a whole pile of horsey psychobabble.....there is lots and lots of methods, you need to find the few that you feel you can implement most effectively at your level 

Go with your gut....if something seems ridiculous....it's probably because it is, and if something seems magical it's probably just smoke and mirrors


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## kayhmk

I like the concept Parelli has. 

I don't like the way he complicates stuff by using a lot of words to say very little (perhaps because I do this and your own faults are what irk you most about other people!) and has a lot of fancy and catchy terminology you really have to learn or memorize to keep track of what's happening. 

I do like the exercises because they are pretty much common sense. I like the step-by-step from-ground-up system he has built. I like how he has opened a lot of people to other ideas and ways of working, just like Monty Roberts has. 

I don't like how saying his name in a training situation needs a minute of explaining why you are bringing him up and whether it is "for real" or mock. I don't like the way his program has developed over the years (I've come across Parelli back in the nineties). I don't always like the results his methods get.

What this means? All in all, I'm not for or against Parelli, I don't really like Parelli or dislike it either. There are a lot of good stuff in the program. I use things I've learned from Parelli every day and has found them useful. But a fan? No. Just like I'm not a fan of any trainers out there. "Pick'n'mix 'em" is the only training system I can fully support!


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## Nokotaheaven

Pat: "Know what happens before what happens happens" he got that from either Ray Hunt or Tom Dorrance. What it basically means is that in any situation/event you have to know what what your horse is going to do before he even knows he's going to do it.
Also, much of Pat's teaching ability can be accredited to the fact that his son Caton is disabled. I mean, when Pat taught Caton, he had to break everything into smaller and smaller steps for Caton to learn, thus Pat taught himself how to break things down and learn the very very basic fundamentals of everything, which he now applies in teaching others.
Also, I've seen pat enter colt starting competitions, but I don't think he's ever won one. But that is because he is more concerned about teaching the horse than winning the competition


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## Pegasus1

I had never thought about the effect Caton must have had on Pats training style. It's a very good point though.


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## Pegasus1

kayhmk said:


> "Pick'n'mix 'em" is the only training system I can fully support!


I think that for experienced folks that is probably the best idea, but for newcomers it could lead to extreme confusion. I would prefer to see people take time to pick a clinician they really like, then pretty much stick to that program for a while. 

After all Parelli is only supposed to help you put a foundation on yourself and your horse. Most folks take many years to get to level 4 (and that will probably include me :-( ) but the original idea is that you should get through the levels in a few years at most. Level 1 in around 3 to 4 weeks is a realistic target according to Pat. 

Once you have this knowledge even Pat strongly advices seeking out instruction from other trainers to put the finish on yourself and your horse. Also please remember that Parelli is primarily a people training program, not a horse training program.


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## Padrona

This will be a long post 


*Cliff Notes Version:* I like most everything about the Parelli program so far. It has literally changed my life and the lives of horses around me. Read on for the explanation.....


I grew up with horses. I am middle aged now. Training, clinics, breaking youngsters, getting on problem horses, showing, rescuing the starved and old....I grew up in a horsey family. My parents raised warmloods, thoroughbreds, and some quarter horses. I was literally riding before I could walk. I was in a professional lesson program with a top name hunter/jumper competitor by the time I was in fourth grade. Got into dressage and took countless lessons. Did some western showing, some trail riding, and so forth. I was the one that would jump on an untrained 4 yr old and be cantering them around the pasture in the wide open after 2 or 3 rides. This isn't meant as a brag, it's just the history of where I came from with horses. Horses is ALL I have ever known. It's ALL I've ever done. 


Now I am a barefoot trimmer, and my full time job is working with and around and underneath horses. I see ALL kinds, from the highly trained show horse to the rank rescue horse and everything in between. Foals, to 35 years old. Big, small, trainable, nasty, you name it.  I also encounter all types of owners, from highly professional trainers and competitors, to backyard sally who never sees her horse except when I'm there to trim its feet....


I was led to the Parelli program because of a horse I own that I was having consistent problems with, no matter how much I rode her, trained her, changed her feed, treated for ulcers, changed her tack, etc.... We were just missing something. We were butting heads too much, she was having too many tantrums out of frustration, and I was getting too upset to enjoy owning her.


Friends began lending me DVDs to watch and talking to me about Parelli. Previously I had a "bad taste" in my mouth due to all the neativity I read on forums. I had both positive and negative experiences with Parelli horses so I was kind of undecided and skeptical.


At this time I have watched ALL of the DVDs from Levels 1 - 4, the Success Series, the Patterns course, and about 15 various Savvy Club monthly training videos. I am a Parelli Connect member, and a monthly Savvy Club member. I have been to two Horse and Soul Tour Stops, one where I drove my own horse 16 hours one way to be a demo horse. Pat worked with her about 2 hours. Here is my summary:


1. *Cost of Videos and Equipment:* Yes it is expensive. HOWEVER: what horse equipment is NOT expensive?! Seriously! I used to spend $45 for a dressage training DVD, or $450 for a nice leather training bridle, or $175 for a pair of breeches..........so how is a $250 Parelli bridle, or a $19.99 DVD excessively expensive and a rip-off? It's not. If you want to attend a George Morris clinic, you will pay for it. If you want to own Jane Savoie's training DVDs, get out of your checkbook! Parelli is NOT charging excessive fees for anything he sells. In fact, I find his stuff much more affordable than most traditional dressage type equipment! $150 for a martingale, no problem, $280 for a high quality sheepskin saddle pad? That's normal. So why is Parelli attacked for charging normal prices for good, high quality equipment?


2. *You have to use Parelli brand Equipment:* No you don't. I don't remember hearing one single time, Pat or Linda Parelli say that if you don't use THEIR equipment, you cannot be successful. They will say that you need a specific length or weight of rope, or that your saddle needs to fit well and not hinder your horse, but they actually do not push their products in their videos at all.

Many people don't like the idea of the "carrot stick" because it's just a whip with Parelli's name on it. Well, not really. It is stiffer than a typical dressage whip. It doesn't "woosh" in the air, or crack like a whip can. That makes it friendlier and less threatening to the horse. Yes you can use any type of stick that acomplishes the same thing. 


3. *You only play games and never ride:* False. You start riding right away in the beginning levels. Pat has addressed the problems of people perpetually stuck in Level 1 doing ground work. I heard him at a tour stop say - people tell him they've been doing Level 1 for 3 years now, and it makes him cringe. He said you should be able to master Level 1 in a WEEK! Then move on people! I would say 75% of everything I have watched in all the DVDs has been focused on saddle work. Yes the Parelli focuses on the RELATIONSHIP above all else. So if you are going to damage your relationship with the horse by focusing on a certain detail of performance, then you need to step back and reassess. But nowhere in the training materials does Pat or Linda say not to ride, or stay on the ground for 7 years doing the 7 games like so many people get stuck doing.


4. *Catchy terminolgy and cutesy sayings...childish and annoying:* Many people have been taught to dominate a horse. Give him an order and he obeys. I have even heard Julie Goodnight say this on a training tape, "There is only one conversation that should ever occur between a horse and a human - the human says horse this is your captain speaking, and the horse says yes ma'am!" So Parelli I feel is trying to change the way people think. Get you to think as a TEAM with your horse. Give and take, relationship, and mutual rapport and respect. Love, language, and leadership. Too many people think of horses as dumb slaves that ned to be commanded and whipped or spurred when they don't respond. Yes the terminolgy is different, but I find it a bit refreshing after so many years of traditional dictatorship type training.


5. *Parelli horses are spoiled, rude, and pushy:* I do think a lot of "Parelli horses" have major behavioral issues because so many people are stuck at Level 1 for years and never progress. Or they don't understand the psychology behind the games, or the horse's body language. I have seen Pat discipline horses, and get downright rough with them when the horse purposely and intentionally defied his requests and disrespected his space. I have seen it in real life, and on some of the DVDs. He asks nicely, and with as little force as necessary, but is ready to back it up with more "bite" if needed. Trust the horse will respond, but be ready to correct if he doesn't. That is one of the principles he teaches over and over. I think people are ruined on Parelli by being around Parelli horses owned by beginners who misinterpret the program, or don't follow through. Middle aged women with empty nest syndrome and extra cash who go out and buy a big old spoiled greenie and then "do Parelli" probably isn't the best respresentation of what the program can do. Sorry for the offense, but many people "do" a program or method in their speech, but in their actions......eh, not really. 


I work with horses daily as my job, and I have seen "Parelli" horses, that didn't know the most basic of basics, but their owner thinks they are highly trained in the Parelli program. :shock: That's not a good representation of the program.


6. *Parelli hasn't invented anything, only copied the older masters:* Yes, and in fact, he states this on darned near every DVD he has ever produced! You can't hardly watch for an hour without hearing a reference to Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, or several others from back in the 70s. He has done tributes just to honor those people. At both tour stops I attended, I heard several references to those masters and what they taught him. Just yesterday on a DVD Pat said he wanted to share something he figured out years ago. Then he stopped and clarified - well, he didn't figure it out for humanity, others already had, but he had figured it out for himself so he wants to share with us how he came to learn this..... 

All the claims of Parelli being a rip off an a sheister for packaging what others taught him, really aren't justified. I cannot count the number of times Pat says that what he's about to teach or talk about was taught him him back in 19____ by ________ (whomever.) There is no grand delusion that he invented any of this stuff.


If anyone actually takes the inititive to WATCH him in person and on DVDs, instead of believing internet gossip, they would know that Pat and Linda Parelli reference these masters on just about every training topic they discuss! I was not expecting this at all and was quite shocked to hear these names brought up over and over again. 


Pat actually tells MANY stories of mistakes he made, or misconceptions he had that were straightened out by some of those old masters, for him.


*IN SUMMARY:* Can the Parelli program by misused, abused, or totally misinterpreted by beginners and advanced horsemen alike? Sure! Any program or method, or traditional training system can! How many people in history have abused horses with draw reins? How many have gotten horses injured trying to load them in trailers, or rope a cow when they didn't know what they were doing? How many dressage riders have ridden horses high headed, hollow, and behind the bit and thought they were "riding dressage?" Countless! Humans are flawed by nature, and prone to error in anything we do. 


Are their spoiled, nasty, unrideable "Parelli" horses out there that we come in contact with? Sure! But there are many non-Parelli horses fitting that description too. The method is only as good as the one applying it. And ANYTHING we apply to a horse has the potential to be screwed up.


*If I have learned anything so far while studying the Parelli program, it would be this:*


Smile, have fun, enjoy your horse, focus on solutions and not problems, don't blame the horse, don't be a direct-line thinker, recognize that most "problem horses" are because of problem humans, make things interesting and provocative for the horse, don't drill and kill, give the horse more responsibility and trust he can handle it, don't be so critical and negative! Learn to see the good in every horse and every situation, view challenges and problems as opportunities.....


But most of all, I have learned a LOT about myself. I have learned that no matter how many years of horse training and handling experience I had, there was so much I didn't know or was doing wrong. Just changing something so simple as the look on my face and the intention in my heart, can change the ENTIRE outcome of a session with a horse. 


You cannot get frustrated, angry, or upset with the horse. You have to remain positive, look for the good in the situation, accept small steps of improvement.

So am I a carrot stick totin', Kool-Aid drinkin' extremist? Heck no! Whatever works, works.  If it doesn't work, try something else, as I did with the one mare that I was just getting flat NOWHERE with....but if you're happy, horse is happy, you're having great success and no issues, then what you're doing is obviously just fine. But the Parelli program is just one more arrow to tuck in your quiver if you encounter a LOT of horses on a daily basis like I do, or come up against some problems that you just can't seem to fix the traditional way.


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## Kliment

Very nice last post!


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## kayhmk

Awesome post from Padrona, I wholeheartedly agree! 

The post also reminded me of something I forgot to mention: 
most valuable thing I've learned from Parelli is the idea of individual's responsibility in a partnership -- be it horse or human. Love it.


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## Pegasus1

Well done Padrona. I wish I had had the nerve to write a post like that. I wholeheartedly agree with every word said. I was helping a couple out yesterday and they were keen to learn the NH ideas and Parelli in particular. They asked why they heard so much negative comment about Parelli at their yard from traditional riders. To be honest I struggled to answer the question. 
I totally agree that there are many who say they are in the program, but have a very very poor understanding of it, apply it incorrectly and get into trouble. The naysayers then concentrate their criticism on those horses and point to them as examples as to how all Parelli is at fault.

Pat says that he can provide inspiration but the student has to provide the perspiration. This is both physical perspiration and mental perspiration. When I ask many self professed Parelli students how they much study it is normally a negligible amount. I reckon to study at least 5 hours a week on top of playing with horses.

Is it maybe because Parelli is such a big brand that a huge number of folks know about it and get started in it, many with no intention of putting the perspiration in that is required. They like to watch his show tours on TV but don't want to spend the time and effort it takes to watch his proper instructional DVDs or his Internet accessed DVDs. They then try to emulate what Pat has done on those shows with their horses, saying they are doing Parelli, and it goes wrong.

I would like to ask those on this forum who are anti Parelli, have you spent at least 20 hours viewing his Levels Packs, Horse behaviour pack, Colt Starting pack or are you basing your opinions on the afore mentioned badly trained horses, TV presentations and internet gossip.

Those TV presentations are good, but they should NOT be regarded as instructional material. They are edutainment and Pat describes them as such. They are there to give a flavour of the program, not its' details and are not aimed at folks who already know that NH is the way forward. 

They are to get the sort of folks who will wire the mouth of a horse shut to get more points in the show ring thinking that there might be a better way. Or those that put caustic soda on horses feet to make them step higher to think a different way. OK those are extreme examples and there is probably no helping them, but the same sort of abuse, in a milder way, happens on yards up and down the world everyday. If these edutainment shows makes just one person who is unknowingly being abusive to their horse stop and think then I am all for it.

What I actually like about Pat is that he does not say "follow my step by step program and all will be well". He actually says that you have to study hard and have a lot of mental and physical perspiration to succeed with horses, but his job is to provide us with the information he has gathered from all his mentors in a convenient form to learn it.

Note I say from his mentors, not from him. He is trying to pass on the wisdom of generations and explicitly says so all the time. He does NOT claim to have invented any of it and I have never heard him claim to have done so. Even the Horsenality idea is just his way of trying to make a subject that is difficult to explain accessible to more folks. The Parellis invented the presentation of the material, but not the content.


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## bsms

Pegasus1 said:


> ...I totally agree that there are many who say they are in the program, but have a very very poor understanding of it, apply it incorrectly and get into trouble. The naysayers then concentrate their criticism on those horses and point to them as examples as to how all Parelli is at fault....


I consider this a fault of most DVD trainers.

If a large number or percentage of people are not understanding your message, then maybe YOU are part of the problem. If Parelli thinks people are misapplying his teaching, maybe he ought to examine how he teaches.

Most DVD teaching I've seen make it look too easy, and doesn't emphasize how much subtlety goes in to training a horse. If you can't read a horse's body language, your training is going to suck. And the majority of DVD training I've seen doesn't make that point.

If you hire a trainer to work with you, they can show you what they are looking for in the horse's response. And if you spend hours teaching a horse a small thing, you begin to realize that a DVD is highly compressed and usually involves one or two types of horses, at best - but each horse is truly an individual.

I've recently watched a couple of DVDs from Larry Trocha. I think he makes it pretty clear that these are training suggestions, but they don't work on every horse and they don't work in 60 minutes. I haven't watched anything he has on training a colt, because that isn't my need.

Which brings me to another pet peeve: If you are watching a DVD on training a colt, you might want to reconsider training a colt. It is fine to watch one for ideas, but anyone who thinks they can learn how to break a colt from watching a set of DVDs needs to buy a horse with some good training first.

If lots of folks are misapplying your methods, you need to rethink how you communicate and market your method. You are either marketing to the wrong people, or not communicating clearly.


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## Pegasus1

The Parelli program does of course have a large number of certified instructors to help folks through the system. 
They are required to have passed Level 4 and then go to Colorado to do a course. They are then graded as to what they are allowed to teach and only the experienced ones who have been assessed to be good enough are allowed to teach more advanced topics. 1 star instructors are not allowed to teach riding at all for example, only ground skills.
When the Parellis visit the UK instructors are strongly encouraged to go on courses with them which I believe are free for instructors to attend. I have never heard of a Clinton Anderson certified instructor in the UK, nor a Buck Branaman one. Monty Roberts does have such a system in place.
Parelli is not a DVD only program, it is a program supplemented by DVDs with a strong instructional bias.
As for the Colt Starting DVDs I have watched them. To my mind they actually contained a huge amount of advice that I use daily for working with our two horses one of which was backed recently for me by James Roberts (one of Pats' proteges) and the other is an 11 year old experienced horse. In some ways it is their best product in my opinion.
I cannot think of a stricter system to ensure good quality instruction is the norm. Of course there will always be the odd instructor who slips through the net, but in a large organisation there will always be weaker individuals.

Of course if folks do not / cannot take advantage of the instructors who are out there and just study by DVD then they will probably not progress as well as those who a) have an instructor nearby and b) can afford one

Next objection please !


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## bsms

Pegasus1 said:


> ...Next objection please !


Again: If your marketing results in significant numbers of people thinking the DVDs suffice, then there is a marketing problem. Based on the Parelli website, Arizona has 2 Parelli instructors - a 4 star in Phoenix, and a 1-star in Tucson. That, in turn, suggests the majority of Parelli trained horses in Arizona are Parelli DVD trained. And that might explain why Parelli trained horses in Arizona have a less than sterling reputation...:?


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## Dame Nuit

BSMS : there is no way you can do a very detailled programm. Advice people they had to watch the whole thing to keep the whole stuff. 
And bind people to do it all right. 

You can't force people to be smart enought to follow the advice you gave them. 

So there is two solutions left : 
- whether you just do nothing. 
-Wether you do something, knowing you can't be sure every body that buy your stuff will be smart enough to use it the correct way. But you will help the people who really want to do their best.


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## themacpack

Too much schtick - not enough substance.


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## Dame Nuit

_schtick _ can you please use words that existe in the dictionnary? :lol:


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## Pegasus1

BMS I agree with Dame Nuit. 
You seem to think that Parelli should be responsible for the people who don't follow his program properly. There is such a thing as personal responsibility.
I mentioned in a different thread that you should research what instructors are available in your area and what programs they teach. Then pick one which you feel you can successfully follow. If there are no instructors of a particular program in your area, pick a different program. 
Some people will have the experience to follow Parelli just from the DVDs but not many.

themacpak. I can honestly say that there is so much substance available in the Parelli program I have trouble learning it all, or even being aware of it all. Given that the subject mater is primarily just for foundation training and not for training a particular discipline (which Pat says you should find from a specialist afterwards) the concentration of information available for that stage of a horses and persons training is huge. 
How long did you study the Parelli program before coming to your conclusion ? Did you watch levels 1 to 4, the horse behaviour series, the monthly DVD series (which has suddenly taken a huge leap in quality by the way). Did you read Pats book, or the thousands of documents on the Parelli website (which you can join free for a month) ? Or did you just watch the TV shows he does ?


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## themacpack

Dame Nuit said:


> _schtick _can you please use words that existe in the dictionnary? :lol:


Only because you find it so amusing:
Schtick - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary - click on "shtick" (of which this is a variant) and you'll see it very much does exist in the dictionary.


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## themacpack

I am glad that it works for those who love his program - however, I was under the impression that the OP wanted to know everyone's opinion, and my opinion is what it is and is not going to be swayed by those that choose to partake of the kool-aid.


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## Pegasus1

themacpack said:


> I am glad that it works for those who love his program - however, I was under the impression that the OP wanted to know everyone's opinion, and my opinion is what it is and is not going to be swayed by those that choose to partake of the kool-aid.


I was just trying to establish from what level of knowledge about the program your opinion of it is formed. That is surely something that the OP deserves to know in order to evaluate the strength of your opinion.


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## jaydee

When someone invents a real life cookie cutter horse then maybe you could just rely on one person to listen too - the person who designed it and wrote out the instruction manual
Until that day comes (and heaven forbid it ever happens) the best approach is to look at everything thats out there, keep a notebook even and use it 'as and when'. I cut things out of magazines, print stuff off the web, note things down I read on forums when I think mmm that might come in handy one day - and they go into a folder
Most of what these trainers - including PP - will tell you has already been told before or is being told be someone else and in a few years time it will still be going on in exactly the same way with a few variations to the theme.
I can appreciate that people who havent been exposed to real life trainers - hands on will always be the best way to learn - and are new to horses will lean on this sort of thing but I've done pretty well over the years and was having success with horses before anyone even heard of PP and his like in the UK so no way am I going to say you cant have done just as well without them because for years and years people have done exactly that.
Too much of his stuff is way too drawn out and 'for the sake of it' - but of course thats the secret to selling more DVD's


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## themacpack

FWIW - I am not anti-"natural horsemanship". I am actually a fan of the base concepts, and some of the practitioners. It's the packaging and snake-oil salesman ship that certain practitioners, and - to ME - Parelli is in this category, put on it that prompts me to look elsewhere for my training input.


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## Pegasus1

themacpack said:


> FWIW - I am not anti-"natural horsemanship". I am actually a fan of the base concepts, and some of the practitioners. It's the packaging and snake-oil salesman ship that certain practitioners, and - to ME - Parelli is in this category, put on it that prompts me to look elsewhere for my training input.


So what you are actually anti is his marketing strategy. I take it from your post that you have not studied the substance of what he teaches in depth because I can assure you his Levels DVDs don't have any snake oil in them at all
To be honest I hate the marketing slogans of quite a lot of companies I use the products of, but that does not make the products of those companies bad, just means they have a bad marketing department.


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## jaydee

bsms said:


> I consider this a fault of most DVD trainers.
> 
> If a large number or percentage of people are not understanding your message, then maybe YOU are part of the problem. If Parelli thinks people are misapplying his teaching, maybe he ought to examine how he teaches.
> 
> Most DVD teaching I've seen make it look too easy, and doesn't emphasize how much subtlety goes in to training a horse. If you can't read a horse's body language, your training is going to suck. And the majority of DVD training I've seen doesn't make that point.
> 
> If you hire a trainer to work with you, they can show you what they are looking for in the horse's response. And if you spend hours teaching a horse a small thing, you begin to realize that a DVD is highly compressed and usually involves one or two types of horses, at best - but each horse is truly an individual.
> 
> I've recently watched a couple of DVDs from Larry Trocha. I think he makes it pretty clear that these are training suggestions, but they don't work on every horse and they don't work in 60 minutes. I haven't watched anything he has on training a colt, because that isn't my need.
> 
> Which brings me to another pet peeve: *If you are watching a DVD on* *training a colt, you might want to reconsider training a colt.* It is fine to watch one for ideas, but anyone who thinks they can learn how to break a colt from watching a set of DVDs needs to buy a horse with some good training first.
> 
> If lots of folks are misapplying your methods, you need to rethink how you communicate and market your method. You are either marketing to the wrong people, or not communicating clearly.


 *BSMS* is absolutely right here and its the root of so many problems we're seeing today. This goes right down to basics too - and no doubt will offend a lot of people when I say it - but just because a few people will shoot up their hands and say 'I bought a horse and knew nothing and learnt it all from watching DVD's or Youtube videos and did really well - does not mean everyone will - I would actually say that the majority of people are going to have some major problems and accidents
If you dont know how to put a bridle on a horse or saddle one up or know how to lead it and groom it you shouldnt be buying one - Sorry but really you shouldnt.
After years of riding I want an instructor/trainer on the ground looking at me and telling me what I'm doing right or wrong - cant learn that from videos
If you can learn from PP then fine but it shouldnt come above real life hands on training, it also shouldnt encourage you to buy a horse thats more demanding than you have experience for.
I have looked at some of his stuff and its all so dragged out in places - I feel like the horse would be old and ready to retire before I'd even got half way
*Pegasus* I know you have a lot of respect for James Roberts but I'd put good money on that he would have been a great horseman without any help from PP - the arrangement just gave him a useful step onto that marketing ladder and I dont blame him for taking it - he was a smart guy and saw an opportunity


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## Katy and Kaylee

I like some of his 'games', and some not. His approach or something not wholly unlike worked well with one of my horses, not at all with another. There seem to be a bit too much expensive merchandise surrounding him (although I must admit that a Parelli lead rope I bought by chance before fully realizing who the great man was, is superlative quality and came through a lot of adventures and is still going strong).
All in all, aside from being a bit of a fanatic, like all natural horsemanship schools of thought, I think he provides a very useful framework to start doing stuff with your horse when you don't have much experience and you would just be intimidated and not know where to start. 
That said, you need to be ready to drop the game and stand up to a bossy horse. Not abusing it, but hold your ground!


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## nrhareiner

Would not let PP swing a leg over any one of my horses. Have watched him train (if that is what you want to call it) and ride. No thanks.


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## nrhareiner

jaydee said:


> When someone invents a real life cookie cutter horse


Ok maybe not a real life one....


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## Saddlebag

A lot of the big name trainers tied themselves into sponship and the marketing to use their name for endorsements. Does anyone really think that Pat and Linda alone would have time to book arenas, the volunteers and all the machine that it takes to run these events with the frequency they are held? They'd never get off the phones. The sponsors look after this. They have the people, time and financial means to run the venues and retrieving some of the money put in to these is a normal business practice.


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## nrhareiner

Saddlebag said:


> A lot of the big name trainers tied themselves into sponship and the marketing to use their name for endorsements. Does anyone really think that Pat and Linda alone would have time to book arenas, the volunteers and all the machine that it takes to run these events with the frequency they are held? They'd never get off the phones. The sponsors look after this. They have the people, time and financial means to run the venues and retrieving some of the money put in to these is a normal business practice.


It is not the sponcers that do that. These type things are set up just like a concert would be set up. A promoter is who does all the work. They also take all the risk.


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## Dame Nuit

nrhareiner said:


> Would not let PP swing a leg over any one of my horses. Have watched him train (if that is what you want to call it) and ride. No thanks.


Can you show me someone you consider as a good rider, please?


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## nrhareiner

Just a few.


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## Dame Nuit

OK, thanks...


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## nrhareiner

Do you see the differance? It is quite a big differance also. Down not only to the riding but the training on the horses.


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## smrobs

Also, a big thing about those riders and horses, they are not riding a horse that someone else trained. Those folks trained those horses to get to that point.


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## stevenson

these are all useful training methods. It is the basis of any form of training, reward good , punish bad. Punish not beat the holy caca out of them. 
These methods have been used for years, these guys went public media and are making a fortune now.


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## Pegasus1

And Pat, for one, fully acknowledges that these ideas "are so old they are new again". 
Large parts of his profits actually go to outreach programs and very heavy scholarship of new students. Several of my friends have gone to his ranch. Their training has been free, they just have to pay for food and accommodation.
Don't know what programs the others have, but I'm sure they must also have scholarship programs. 
Besides, I thought America was the land where personal success was applauded. But maybe not if they are making money out of you pass time ?


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## BBBCrone

Pegasus1 said:


> Besides, I thought America was the land where personal success was applauded.


Use to be! Hasn't been that way for a while. Personal success is now pretty much vilified. Folks feel entitled to take their fair share of someone else's success. *shrugs*

Personally, all these clinicians making a lot of money off of their training methods and equipment doesn't bother me. I hold no ill will over successful people. And by successful people in this sense I mean someone who can market themselves well, not necessarily good horsemen and women. I'm just smart about it. If I want a "stick" I can make one myself.


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## themacpack

Pegasus1 said:


> And Pat, for one, fully acknowledges that these ideas "are so old they are new again".
> Large parts of his profits actually go to outreach programs and very heavy scholarship of new students. Several of my friends have gone to his ranch. Their training has been free, they just have to pay for food and accommodation.
> Don't know what programs the others have, but I'm sure they must also have scholarship programs.
> Besides, I thought America was the land where personal success was applauded. But maybe not if they are making money out of you pass time ?


My issue with his "training" has nothing to do with the fact that he is successful. Is the old "you're just jealous" argument really the best defense you can raise against those who are not as enamored of him?


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## bsms

When someone says his teachings "are so old they are new again", it suggests he IS teaching something new, because he's gone back and researched and learned from past "masters", Grasshopper. And now it's "new" somehow.

Most folks don't begrudge Parelli his money. They do suggest you are paying more than what you are getting, and that there are more frugal options out there. 

And I think a lot of opposition comes from those who have seen the failures. You can blame the individual for not truly following Pat's methods, but I'll blame the instructor for either not warning them that his method isn't suitable for learning by watching DVDs, or for making claims of success that just don't match what a lot of folks are seeing around them.

If I ever buy another horse, I want one that doesn't need any more training. One that is level-headed, has lots of trail time, and takes care of his rider. Trooper is like that, but he's ridden by the females in our family. Mia is a sweet girl, but I think she believes every ride should be an adventure. If there isn't anything exciting going on, she'll invent something. But sometimes it would be nice to have a horse who could be ridden bareback in the desert, and who is big enough for me to ride. A horse who could make me a better rider because I could relax on him/her since both of us know Geronimo has been dead a long time, and isn't preparing an ambush for us just around the bend in the wash.

But if I saw an ad on Craigslist for a horse trained in Parelli, I'd skip to the next ad. Where I live, the image that comes to mind is of a horse that is poorly mannered and rarely ridden. Maybe that is because the nearest Parelli-trained instructor is 30-40 miles away and is a level 1 instructor. But those who live by marketing can't complain if they are judged by the end product people see. And the few "Parelli trained" horses I've seen all look like "green broke" to me.

I'm sure culture plays a part in this. In southern Arizona, we don't have "barns". We have stables where people keep their horses, or backyards where horses live. Most of the horses in a stable are used for trail riding, not competition. You rent a small corral at a local stable. You don't subscribe to some program, style of riding, competition or training philosophy. I'm sure places that have on-site upper level Parelli trainers have different results than what I run in to here.

But if Parelli is going to market his DVDs to folks who don't have a trainer around to help them, then he can eat the results of his DVD-based training. And where I live, the chow ain't going to be too tasty...

In his defense, though, I wouldn't get excited if someone advertised a horse trained according to Clinton Anderson either. I'm not sure my problem is with Pat Parelli or CA or others. It may be mostly with the idea that someone with limited experience with horses can train a horse after watching some DVDs. The exception would be if it was trained by a pro who was Parelli / CA / John Lyons certified...I would take a look then. The difference is between pro vs amateur rather than Parelli vs Lyons.


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## Padrona

jaydee said:


> When someone invents a real life cookie cutter horse then maybe you could just rely on one person to listen too - the person who designed it and wrote out the instruction manual
> Until that day comes (and heaven forbid it ever happens) the best approach is to look at everything thats out there, keep a notebook even and use it 'as and when'. I cut things out of magazines, print stuff off the web, note things down I read on forums when I think mmm that might come in handy one day - and they go into a folder
> Most of what these trainers - including PP - will tell you has already been told before or is being told be someone else and in a few years time it will still be going on in exactly the same way with a few variations to the theme.
> I can appreciate that people who havent been exposed to real life trainers - hands on will always be the best way to learn - and are new to horses will lean on this sort of thing but I've done pretty well over the years and was having success with horses before anyone even heard of PP and his like in the UK so no way am I going to say you cant have done just as well without them because for years and years people have done exactly that.
> Too much of his stuff is way too drawn out and 'for the sake of it' - but of course thats the secret to selling more DVD's


Buck Branaman says that once he found Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance, he never ever looked for anything else. He said it just made sense to him and can be applied to every horse. Buck is considered a master, a legend almost. And he did not attain that level from hopping around from one thing to another, one trainer or instructor to the next. 

I agree that everyone has to find what works for them. There is no one trainer that every horse person is going to love. We're all different, we all expect different things from a trainer. But I don't necessarily think you HAVE to jump around and learn from 76 different trainers in your life to be a true horseman. 

We live in the days of Craigslist and Ebay, so it is very easy to find many DVDs for cheap. Many of my DVDs were hand-me-downs from others. I bought the Level 4 series from the Parelli website, but did so with a 15% coupon and free shipping, so it was very affordable. Again, 4 full length DVDs - many hours of run time (don't know exactly how many), for around $100 bucks. That is actually a great deal! I have spent thousands on training materials from traditional dressage and hunter jumper trainers. I remember the days of dropping $250 to trot my horse around a triangle for a rated judge to give me an opinion on movement in hand.....:shock: For $250 I can buy a whole Parelli DVD collection. 

So no, I'm not saying the Parelli way is BETTER. I'm only saying that when it comes to the cost of it, there really isn't a good argument for it being so expensive. It's actually extremely affordable in my opinion!


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## Padrona

bsms said:


> But if I saw an ad on Craigslist for a horse trained in Parelli, I'd skip to the next ad. Where I live, the image that comes to mind is of a horse that is poorly mannered and rarely ridden.


One of the ladies who really introduced me to Parelli for my problem horse, is an endurance rider, and is a solid Level 4 in the program! I too ride endurance, and she can ride circles around me! She was out there riding yesterday in the brutually cold wind. She rode on the paved road in front of her house because there is too much ice in the fields. She GPS tracks her miles, and she is conditioning one horse, and training 2 of her others. She will have two horses competing in endurance full time this season.

She has extremely well mannered horses (I trim their hooves!). Her horses can be pointed at a trailer parked 100 yards away, and they will run to it and jump on. She can canter her horse in a field with NO tack whatsoever, not even a halter. Her horses are worked, they are worked with, and they are ridden a LOT. A whole lot!

Yes, I do trim for some "Parelli people" who do not ride, and that have spoiled, rude horses. But I also trim horses for plenty of ordinary traditional people with the same kind of bad tempered horses. 

I really don't think you can sum all the Parelli riders up in on lump. The ones I have met at the Horse and Soul tours, absolutely do ride! Many of them are at the stage of being able to jump and canter bareback with no tack. These are some seriously trained and accomplished horses. 

My one Arab mare I have started over from scratch, starting at the very basic friendly game on the ground and going up from there. I am now riding her about 3x per week, and she is so connected to me at this point I can drop the reins on her neck and mostly just think about where I want to go or what I want to do, and she responds very nicely. This is a really hot, high spirited horse that was spooking at everything, getting herself spun up on adreanaline, and was extremely dominant. The change in this horse is absolutely remarkable. 

I really don't believe you can group "Parelli people" in one lump any more than you can "dressage people" or "working cow people" or "western pleasure people." There are so many different types of riders within those groups, you are bound to see good, bad, and everything in between!


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## Northern

I find PNH regular retail cost of items to be overpriced, & if you want to go to Pagosa Sprngs for a learning week or work your way up to becoming a PNH professional, you're looking at major bucks, but if you're going to stick with just achieving the Levels, Padrona has a point that in comparison to what you're going to spend for other trainers' materials/lessons, PNH is a bargain. 

Bill Dorrance said that true horsemanship is passed down from friend to friend; it's not for sale! Plus, Tom Dorrance never charged a cent for all of the help that he gave the younger generation of students! 

All of the Dorrances' students have conveniently forgotten their example and admonition in this regard.


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## Saddlebag

I'm not blaming Parelli but I do get rather ticked with those who worship him and his methods and nothing else matters. And those who don't worship him get treated like heathens. Not everyone does this but too many of them do. When I watch dvds, no matter who did them, or clinics I go with the idea of what I can learn, and not to find fault. There are many accomplished horsemen like Buck Brannaman. He wrote a tell-all book about his father and that crap always sells. If his father was so bad why has Buck been quite rude to students? Sometimes students are blamed for not listening when the teacher is lacking in teaching skills.


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## bsms

Padrona said:


> ...I really don't believe you can group "Parelli people" in one lump any more than you can "dressage people" or "working cow people" or "western pleasure people." There are so many different types of riders within those groups, you are bound to see good, bad, and everything in between!


I absolutely CAN assess the majority - OK all - of the Parelli horses I've seen. As I said in my post, the only Parelli trainer within the county is a level 1, and I haven't seen any of her horses. I'm saying what I've seen of those who 'do' Parelli based on the DVDs. Their horses are below average. 

If Parelli doesn't think people should train their horses just by watching his DVDs, then he should say so. He shouldn't market the DVDs as teaching a newbie to train their horse.

As I said at the end of my post: "_I'm not sure my problem is with Pat Parelli or CA or others. It may be mostly with the idea that someone with limited experience with horses can train a horse after watching some DVDs. The exception would be if it was trained by a pro who was Parelli / CA / John Lyons certified...I would take a look then. The difference is between pro vs amateur rather than Parelli vs Lyons._"


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## Dame Nuit

bsms said:


> As I said in my post, the only Parelli trainer within the county is a level 1,


You can't be a Parelli Instructor with a level 1, you have to be at least level 3 ... I suppose you mean 1 star.


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## jaydee

Padrona said:


> Buck Branaman says that once he found Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance, he never ever looked for anything else. He said it just made sense to him and can be applied to every horse. Buck is considered a master, a legend almost. And he did not attain that level from hopping around from one thing to another, one trainer or instructor to the next.
> 
> I agree that everyone has to find what works for them. There is no one trainer that every horse person is going to love. We're all different, we all expect different things from a trainer. But I don't necessarily think you HAVE to jump around and learn from 76 different trainers in your life to be a true horseman.
> 
> We live in the days of Craigslist and Ebay, so it is very easy to find many DVDs for cheap. Many of my DVDs were hand-me-downs from others. I bought the Level 4 series from the Parelli website, but did so with a 15% coupon and free shipping, so it was very affordable. Again, 4 full length DVDs - many hours of run time (don't know exactly how many), for around $100 bucks. That is actually a great deal! I have spent thousands on training materials from traditional dressage and hunter jumper trainers. I remember the days of dropping $250 to trot my horse around a triangle for a rated judge to give me an opinion on movement in hand.....:shock: For $250 I can buy a whole Parelli DVD collection.
> 
> So no, I'm not saying the Parelli way is BETTER. I'm only saying that when it comes to the cost of it, there really isn't a good argument for it being so expensive. It's actually extremely affordable in my opinion!


 I admire Buck Brannaman - though I wouldnt idolise him - I certainly wouldnt put PP in the same box as him, Dorrance or Hunt as he just doesnt measure up to their level
For me to say that I could learn all I need to know from any of these people would be stupid - they are western riders (though BB could easily turn his hand to dressage if he wanted too I'm sure) but for someone like me who's done British Showing classes, cross country, eventing - showjumping, dressage etc all their life I would be drawing some pretty huge blanks if I were to rely on any one trainer for all the disciplines I've needed to get experience in.
No you dont need to have 70+ trainers but I could bet that over the years I've gathered very useful snippets of information from thousands of different sources


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## nrhareiner

There are a lot of PP followers around here. I would not take any one of their horses if you gave them too me. Like I stated here is one person who did OK with her horse using PP and it took her over 4 years to get it to the point I would consider even green broke. 

If I see a horse for sale stating PP or even NH around here as NH is just anouther word for DVD training and PP around here I do not even read any further. I have see too many of these horses and I will not wast the money feeding them.


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## Dame Nuit

nrhareiner said:


> There are a lot of PP followers around here. I would not take any one of their horses if you gave them too me.


Don't worry, I wouldn't give mine to you! :lol:


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## nrhareiner

Dame Nuit said:


> Don't worry, I wouldn't give mine to you! :lol:


 
That is fine. Probable would not take it if you did. All mine are open level reining horses. If they do not slide I do not ride. Again it is a difference in use. I ride with a loos rein with little to no contact at all. Heck I ride my stallion with his reins about down to his knees. The bit he has is actually quite milde by reining starndards but when I pick up on that loose rein by less then a inch he feels it. Why? Not b/c the bit is digging into his mouth but b/c he feels the slightest sigle from the hands to the reins to the bit. Add that in with my seat and legs and he knows what I want.


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## WorshipWarrior83

I will say this my current trainer was a Parelli student from when he started out way before anyone even knew who he was and she was quite the professional horse trainer.

She trained several other peoples horses and her own and I will say this that her boy that she rode prior to his death last year was one of the best behaved horses and had one of the best demeanors.

I will say this she doesn't like Parelli at all as a person but she identifies with his method and uses his principles. I can assure you that she knows what she is doing and has been doing it for over 20 years quite well.

We have some horses at the stables that were trained elsewhere and we have no idea who trained and we have one who I ride that was trained with the CA method because my trainers husband is a huge CA fan and he was the one that trained him from a foal. To be honest I can tell much difference in the finished products. 

Both methods work towards the same goal and many principles are the same even if they aren't called the same thing. I happen to understand what Pat is saying a bit better. Though I have watched CA and picked up a few things. I also have liked things Ive seen of Stacy Westfall and Chris Cox.

I like the 7 games of Parelli as I see them as a useful tool no matter if he is a very good rider or not.

As I have said though at our stables we don't tolerate horses being disrespectful and disobediant and most of the horses owned by the stable were trained Parelli and they are quite well behaved.

Now it may be a mental thing with my Rags that I ride out there but he is not always quite so well behaved and he had a lot of CA work done on him and he is quite accomplished and requires a soft hand to ride and mostly just rides off legs. I hardly need my reins but he also has a real tendancy to forget we are working and not doing what Rags wants to do and I have to get after him a bit.

that may have nothign to do with his training however and could just be a brain issue that you can't train out. Its to be seen. My trainer has been working with me on a lot of that.


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## Padrona

bsms said:


> I absolutely CAN assess the majority - OK all - of the Parelli horses I've seen. As I said in my post, the only Parelli trainer within the county is a level 1, and I haven't seen any of her horses. I'm saying what I've seen of those who 'do' Parelli based on the DVDs. Their horses are below average.
> 
> If Parelli doesn't think people should train their horses just by watching his DVDs, then he should say so. He shouldn't market the DVDs as teaching a newbie to train their horse.
> 
> As I said at the end of my post: "_I'm not sure my problem is with Pat Parelli or CA or others. It may be mostly with the idea that someone with limited experience with horses can train a horse after watching some DVDs. The exception would be if it was trained by a pro who was Parelli / CA / John Lyons certified...I would take a look then. The difference is between pro vs amateur rather than Parelli vs Lyons._"


I'm sorry to hear you have only seen the bad "Parelli horses." I have seen bad, and good, and formed my own opinion based on that. But as I said, given my profession, I am around horses every day that are Clinton Anderson trained, traditional dressage, traditional western type trainers, John Lyons, Parelli, etc..... After awhile, you learn that EVERY "cult" has the beautifully and meticulously trained horses, and the rude, pushy ones that couldn't be ridden around an indoor arena without killing their rider. I've come to the conclusion that you just can't draw conclusions.

Yesterday I very successfully and easily trimmed the feet of a 4 year old rescue horse who was basically untouched before this lady took him out of the rescue. Wild, high spirit, spooky, running people over, sure couldn't touch his feet without him running away. Yesterday was our second session together and I trimmed all four feet with the horse COMPLETELY relaxed, soft, eyes half shut, head low, hind foot rested. I never chased him, in fact I never did more than move him around on the line left and right a few times at a walk. He never shed a drop of sweat. He never got upset or flustered. I used the first 4 Parelli games to assess him and build some trust. First time I met this horse, I couldn't get within 10 feet of him or he'd blow up and bolt and run. Nobody at the rescue was allowed to touch him anymore because he was so wild he was going to hurt someone.

I worked with him 1 hour the first time I met him, and 1 hour yesterday. All four feet trimmed just as easily and nicely as you could imagine. His owner has been doing the basic Parelli games with him, and he yields so beautifully to pressure now. You can move him with just a suggestion - point a finger and he backs up. He is a 1,200 lb. Fjord and weighs literally aout 2 ounces at the end of the lead rope. He is polite, respectful, and patient. The change in him is really amazing.

Could you have done that having never heard of the word "Parelli" in your life? SURE! Of course you could. You don't need a name attached to what you do in order for it to be successful. But my point is that myself and the owner only used the first 4 games to get him from wild, spazzing around, blowing up, running backward, knocking people down, to standing there gentle and quiet as a lamb. 

And I do NOT believe in round penning horses, and running them to death to "wear them out." This horse was never run, chased, or even asked to trot! 80% of all the work I did with him was at a halt, just teaching him trust with the friendly game. Then some gentle yieling to direct and indirect pressure, and some circling at the walk. That was it. 

I have never in my life come across a useful situation for Clinton Anderson training. I think he is harsh, abusive, crude, and he has absolutely no timing or feel whatsoever. I would rather retire my horse at the age of 5 as unrideable than let Clinton Anderson set one foot on my property to help me. But I'm not above admitting that there might be really super nice Clinton Anderson trained horses out there.

It's worth noting that the rescue that horse came from uses Clinton Anderson techniques. The owner told me that the rescue people would say "Don't you dare ever mention the word Parelli around here!!!" 

Hmmmmm. So who got the horse soft, calm, relaxed, happy, gentle, and all four feet trimmed without one drop of sweat shed, and who deemed him unsafe and dangerous and nobody was allowed to touch him? Just think on that for a minute  LOL


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## Padrona

nrhareiner said:


> That is fine. Probable would not take it if you did. All mine are open level reining horses. If they do not slide I do not ride. Again it is a difference in use. I ride with a loos rein with little to no contact at all. Heck I ride my stallion with his reins about down to his knees. The bit he has is actually quite milde by reining starndards but when I pick up on that loose rein by less then a inch he feels it. Why? Not b/c the bit is digging into his mouth but b/c he feels the slightest sigle from the hands to the reins to the bit. Add that in with my seat and legs and he knows what I want.


This can be achieved through the Parelli method as well. When I took my horse to Tennessee to part of the tour stop, I was able to watch 3 days of behind the scenes training with the Parelli Instructors, handlers, and Pat himself. It was INCREDIBLE, the level of finnesse those horses have. :shock: All of them could do rollbacks and gallop without any bridle on the horse's head, and often no saddle either. They were jumping without tack. How many of us can or would do that? Seriously, Stacey Westfall would have just about nothing on those Parelli Instructors that were there. 

And even in the barns where my horse was stabled, their horses could be ground tied in the aisles and never move. They would come to the door of the stall and put their head down for haltering. Their owner wouldn't even have to walk in the stall and put a halter on. The horse practically halters himself. And the instructors were so generous with their time and knowledge. They helped me very much with my mare while I was there. They were always happy to talk and share what they knew. Their horses seemed so calm and centered. While my mare was pacing the stall and spinning the shavings up into the corners, their horses would be flat out sound asleep, snoring, not a care in the world. They were good eaters and drinkers, they just did everything with such grace and elegance. 

Overall, the feeling in the barns was relaxed, happy, easy-going, centered, calm energy, and peaceful. To say I was impressed is an understatement.

In one of the Parelli videos I have, Pat shows how all his horses are trained to move around him during saddling. He cinches up the near side, and does his flank strap, then he never moves his feet, and the horse moves around to his other side so he can check the off-side rigging. Then the horse can move back to the other side. The whole time Pat never moved his feet. If people actually took the time to view the material and decide for themselves, versus just believing the negative gossip and attacks on the internet, they might find themselves pleasantly surprised. I was certainly shocked at the level of finesse and attention to detail that Parelli teaches in all his material. I honestly did not think it was like that until I saw it for myself. 

And no I don't think a person NEEDS Parelli to have a really well balanced, beautifully trained, and safe horse. But I also don't think others should attack Parelli people just for being Parelli people, because many of them do have exceptionally polite, polished horses.


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## bsms

Padrona said:


> ...It's worth noting that the rescue that horse came from uses Clinton Anderson techniques. The owner told me that the rescue people would say "Don't you dare ever mention the word Parelli around here!!!"
> 
> Hmmmmm. So who got the horse soft, calm, relaxed, happy, gentle, and all four feet trimmed without one drop of sweat shed, and who deemed him unsafe and dangerous and nobody was allowed to touch him? Just think on that for a minute  LOL


My answer would be, "Someone who has plenty of experience around horses!"

As I've said several times, my main objection to Parelli isn't his 'games', although I think that word is kind of silly. My objection is to the idea that someone who doesn't know much about horses has much business in training a horse. The horse you mentioned was NOT dealt with by someone whose knowledge of horses was based on watching DVDs.

From post 52 of this thread:



bsms said:


> ...In his defense, though, I wouldn't get excited if someone advertised a horse trained according to Clinton Anderson either. I'm not sure my problem is with Pat Parelli or CA or others. It may be mostly with the idea that someone with limited experience with horses can train a horse after watching some DVDs. The exception would be if it was trained by a pro who was Parelli / CA / John Lyons certified...I would take a look then. The difference is between pro vs amateur rather than Parelli vs Lyons.


I think training DVDS - which can be very good - should all start with a warning:*"Training horses isn't as easy as it will look in this DVD. Training a horse right depends on being able to read the horse's emotions and reactions, and to do so almost instantly. If you are new to horses, don't try to train a colt. If you want to round pen a horse, hire a reputable local trainer to spend a few hours teaching you the basics. We have DVDs available on reading a horse, but there is no substitute for EXPERIENCE around horses.

 After you have some experience, start by training an already trained horse to do something better. Our DVDs offer suggestions that work for most horses. But each horse is an individual. If in doubt, hire someone to watch you and your horse and see if you are ready to teach that individual horse."*​That was typed off the top of my head, and I'm sure it could be improved on. But too much of the video trainer market is oriented to people who have no experience, or limited experience. And too much of it, including videos I've seen of Parelli, suggests training depends on 'if your horse likes you and is your friend...'

I've met people who are worried about getting hurt and basically end up with a backyard pet. I can understand that. I bought a wholly unsuitable horse (having been told she was perfect for a beginner) and a few months later had a back injury that I can feel as I type this, 4 years later. If anyone had wanted her, the best bet would have been to sell her - but no one wanted her. And no DVD would have allowed us to make the progress we have made.

The many hours spent watching a well-thought-of local trainer working her, and having the trainer watch me working her, combined with hundreds of hours of work, have almost got her to the point someone MIGHT consider buying her - although we've been thru too much for me to be interested in selling her now! And even now, most experienced riders on this forum would consider her marginal...

My objection isn't to Parelli's techniques, but to the marketing concept that inexperienced people can do a good job training their horse after watching DVDs. If Parelli marketed his 'system' as something to be done with supervision from a Parelli-trained instructor, or as ideas a moderately experienced rider could use with a green-broke horse, I'd shut up. But I haven't seen any videos of him making that argument. And there would be fewer people going to his clinics and buying his stuff if he did...:evil:


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## Padrona

Oh yes, I completely agree with your point bsms! I agree that someone with no horse knowledge or skills whatsoever, has no business buying training DVDs and trying to train a horse. That is a trainwreck in process! 

However, I will say that Parelli's training videos are divided up into actual training videos for the more experienced, accomplished person, and the basic safety techniques videos.

Anybody can buy or watch the Level 1 DVDs and apply it to their very first horse and be reasonably safe. As safe as you can be with a horse anyway. Basically he goes into detail on how to stay safe around the horse. Proper haltering, moving him away from pressure, walking him toward pressure, etc. He goes into a lot of detail on showing the beginner how to not get kicked or bit, how to not scare or fluster your horse, and so forth.

The later DVDs start going into more detail about various training techniques. 

If I had a loved one with NO horse knowledge whatsoever, and they wanted to go out and buy a horse, I would have no problem handing them Level 1 and saying "Watch this and follow it to the letter." The knowledge they gain there would be far superior to doing things free willy on their own. Of course one on one lessons with a qualified instructor is the best option, but often people can't afford that. 

In the Safe Ride video, Pat and Linda both go into really complex detail on assessing your horse and your tack for safety concerns before mounting up. It is a great video and the topic is safety, not training. 

I do wish their DVDs were better labeled for absolutely beginners, or experienced horse people wanting more finesse. Because they do produce both types.


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## boots

My opinion of Parelli is...

That once upon a time there was a guy that was an okay horse handler. Had a little experience in quite a few different areas of horses. Had a nice little wife and was making a decent little life. 

Somehow urban sprawl hit, someone told this guy he was special in how he handled horses, and he believed them. Although, he was pretty average in actually caring for horses, his looks appealed to a wider market, and he kind of savvied the suburban horse crazy women who were populating his formerly agricultural area.

Basically, he saw an opportunity and took it. Some chica from down under, who had also been told she was special and she believed it, likewise saw an opportunity of both time and dollars and wisely positioned herself to be useful.


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## tailskidwest

First off, I have spent too much money on Parelli stuff. I was new to horses, eagar to learn, but didn't know the first thing about training/handling a horse (ergo, didn't know a thing about horse trainers, DVD or in person). From this experience I figured out how to separate marketing from training. The most expensive is not always the best. 

Look at any training program and ask yourself these questions.
Am I training the horse something I'll have to untrain later?
Like making the horse move his butt away everytime I look at his hip ..... bet your farrier loves that one.
Backing your horse by shaking the lead rope. Real handy when tying your horse in the trailer and you fumble the lead rope tying the knot and your horse starts to back out. Remember, don't yell at the horse, you taught him this move!
There are plenty of little things like this, but take the approach of "is what I'm learning/teaching the horse" based in scientific fact and is it documented? The "why" not just the "how" and "if I teach my horse this, will it effect more advanced training.

In summary, separate the marketing from the training and are you learning substance or "gee whiz". Standing on your horse while he is laying down and you are cracking a whip over him looks fantastic to the novice, but has no practical application in the real horse world (sorry not a Parelli trick, but you get the idea). Do your homework and spend your money wisely, horses are expensive enough!


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## bsms

Here is a sample of what I object to:"The #1 Horsemanship Program in the World

If you truly love horses and have an interest in natural horse training, you'll love the Parelli Method of Natural Horsemanship Education - a holistic approach to natural horse training based on developing a natural relationship with your horse through understanding his/her nature and understanding the world from the horse's point of view.

The Parelli Program and Mission

The Parelli Natural Horse Training Method combines in-depth equine psychology and common sense communication techniques into *the ultimate recipe* for horse and rider success. It allows horse owners *at all levels of experience* (from trail rider to Olympic level Dressage rider) to achieve success without force, partnership without dominance and harmony without coercion. *Our wider goal is to help create a better world for horses *and the people who love them through the non-profit Parelli Foundation. We hope you will become a Parelli Natural Horsemanship Member, and join us in this noble goal.

Parelli Membership – *Essential for Natural Horsemanship Progress*

For those who want to understand horses and learn the *revolutionary* Parelli Program for natural horse training, we have created a natural horsemanship member's club. Parelli Members can learn the Parelli Natural Horse Training Method through a multitude of means within a community site created for their success and development, as well as through local clinics taught by Parelli Endorsed Professional Instructors & Horse Trainers, at Parelli horse training show events and by attending natural horsemanship workshops at our horse training centers in the U.S., the U.K. and Australia.

Results

One of the *magical results* of Parelli natural horse training method is that your horse becomes willing to do what you ask, and your horse training problems are solved naturally and without force or punishment. You and your horse learn to work together in alignment with the horse's Horsenality (unique horse personality), which is why we call our approach Natural HorseManShip."​Parelli Horse Training - Natural Horsemanship - Equine Trainer

Underlining and boldface is mine.








​"It’s 8:00 on a crisp, cool Saturday morning. You and a few of your closest friends are just pulling into the arena parking lot *when you see – and hear – the laughing, dancing, screaming crowd outside. They’re snapping pictures on their phones, sipping hot coffee out of their thermoses, and they’re all wondering the same thing you are:

“What are we going to see?!”*

The 2013 Parelli Horse & Soul is all about expecting the unexpected. *Like your favorite band* changing up their set list at each show...

...Linda Parelli has spent the last five years immersing herself in the world of dressage, discovering ways of applying natural horsemanship principles to the world outside of Parelli. Don’t worry – you don’t need to own a pair of jodhpurs to identify with what Linda is teaching. You just need a love of horses and a desire for never-ending self-improvement. Linda shares her *revolutionary* work in horse psychology, as well as sharing the secret to achieving contact in her Game of Contact sessions."​Expect the Unexpected at the 2013 Parelli Horse & Soul Tour :: Parelli Natural Horse Training

Someone who wants to convince me that isn't dripping with marketing hype is going to have an uphill battle! If Pat Parelli wants to be taken seriously, then perhaps he ought to ACT seriously! If you act like someone who sells snake oil, then you ought to expect to be treated like a snake oil salesman...:evil:


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## WorshipWarrior83

There is no doubt I disapprove of his marketing methods and really don't care for him as a man but I still lime his methods.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gypsygirl

i dont think thats the story !

my farrier knew PP when he was a kid. my farrier said PP could always sell water to a drowning man. no one woke him up to this idea. although i do think LP was told she was special when shes not.....

i also want to add, as a sort of side note. especially towards the above CA remarks. you cant judge a trainer by the behaviors of a student who has never met the trainer [or even has met the trainer i suppose !] just because some wacko says they use CA or PP or whose ever method, does not mean they know how to use it correctly. 

i do like some of parelli, but i like CA a lot more. hes good at pushing horses to get the most out of them, with out pushing them past their limit. my horse wouldnt be half the horse she is had i not trained her with his methods of groundwork.


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## gypsygirl

tailskidwest said:


> First off, I have spent too much money on Parelli stuff. I was new to horses, eagar to learn, but didn't know the first thing about training/handling a horse (ergo, didn't know a thing about horse trainers, DVD or in person). From this experience I figured out how to separate marketing from training. The most expensive is not always the best.
> 
> Look at any training program and ask yourself these questions.
> Am I training the horse something I'll have to untrain later?
> *[/Like making the horse move his butt away everytime I look at his hip ..... bet your farrier loves that one.B]
> Backing your horse by shaking the lead rope. Real handy when tying your horse in the trailer and you fumble the lead rope tying the knot and your horse starts to back out. Remember, don't yell at the horse, you taught him this move!
> There are plenty of little things like this, but take the approach of "is what I'm learning/teaching the horse" based in scientific fact and is it documented? The "why" not just the "how" and "if I teach my horse this, will it effect more advanced training.
> 
> In summary, separate the marketing from the training and are you learning substance or "gee whiz". Standing on your horse while he is laying down and you are cracking a whip over him looks fantastic to the novice, but has no practical application in the real horse world (sorry not a Parelli trick, but you get the idea). Do your homework and spend your money wisely, horses are expensive enough!*


*

based on these comments, i dont think you really understand the point of these cues. the rope shaking is dont to reinforce the hand gesture/body language. your horses shouldnt back up every time the rope moves ! that is ridiculous and he is not being trained correctly. he should be comfortable enough with the equipment that he knows not every movement means something. horses are very sensitive to body language and cues, they understand intention very well if they are trained consistantly.*


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## PaintHorseMares

If nothing else, someone who can get $48 for a stick is no dummy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Padrona

gypsygirl said:


> based on these comments, i dont think you really understand the point of these cues. the rope shaking is dont to reinforce the hand gesture/body language. your horses shouldnt back up every time the rope moves ! that is ridiculous and he is not being trained correctly. he should be comfortable enough with the equipment that he knows not every movement means something. horses are very sensitive to body language and cues, they understand intention very well if they are trained consistantly.


 
Yes and the other thing is the difference in a driving position and a neutral position, as Buck Brannamann teaches. In the 7 Clinics DVDs, Buck talks many times about a driving hand versus a neutral hand. Rope moving around, or flag moving around does NOT mean move unless the hand with the rope or the flag assumes the driving position. It's the intention, not the act of the rope actually moving.

Same deal with looking at hindquarters. A horse should not swing his butt away when you look at his hip. If he does, he wasn't trained right. 

Does a working cow horse bolt and run for a steer every time he sees it? Of course not! He waits for a driving or directing cue or aid. He waits on his rider to tell him what he wants. Just being in the arena with a cow doesn't mean the rider has no control and the horse just willy nilly does what he wants. A Parelli trained horse should not be running around every time a rope is moved either.


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## nrhareiner

If PP is so great then explane the video I posted. 

Here so you do not have to go back and find it.





 
One of the poorest examples of horsemanship I have seen. This is his main horse too. If he is so great then why is this poor horses riding like this? Why is he in his horses face do much if the horse could do this bridleless?


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## clairegillies

lol... people love to hate Parelli.

me... I love Parelli. 

Claire xx


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## Padrona

Yes Magic can and does ride bridleless. She is featured in many of his training videos, including some of the freestyle training videos where she is working on serpentines bridleless. I agree she looks very tight in this video and she's wearing a curb bit and Pat is using a lot of bit contact. He is not however using any MORE bit contact than any other big name trainer or competitor. He is not jerking on her face or yanking her head around. Have you watched the Road to the Horse videos of Clinton Anderson? He is literally **** near tearing the colt's bottom jaw off in the 2011 RTTH. I thought if he yanked and jerked any harder, thge reins would tear right off the bit. :evil:

Dressage horses usually have froth slobbering down their front legs and chests because of so much contact they can't even swallow. But that's considered "beautiful" and the foam is considered a "good thing." (I think it's horrible.)

I couldn't begin to say why Magic is requiring a curb bit and that much contact in that video. What I do know about her is that she was a very damaged, complicated, ruined horse that Pat essentially rescued. She had been through many trainers, was deemed unrideable and dangerous. The fact that Pat does everything he does with her is absolutely amazing, in my opinion.


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## nrhareiner

What I see is a horse who is being pulled around in the turn. She is stiff and not supple at all. She is to the point that the turn is INCORRECT. This to me looks like very very very bad riding and even worse training.

Now compair to this. Only need to watch the first 50 sec of this one to see.





 
What is the differance? Well lets see. A well trained horse performing on a loose rein ridden by a trainer who actually knows what he is doing. Also the horse in this video is only a 3yo.

Also compairing PP to CA is no compairison. Both do what they do b/c they can not compet with a real trainer in the real world of trainng and showing horses which you really need to do if you want to make a good living at it.


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## boots

gypsygirl said:


> i dont think thats the story !
> 
> my farrier knew PP when he was a kid. my farrier said PP could always sell water to a drowning man. *no one woke him up to this idea*. although i do think LP was told she was special when shes not.....
> 
> i also want to add, as a sort of side note. especially towards the above CA remarks. you cant judge a trainer by the behaviors of a student who has never met the trainer [or even has met the trainer i suppose !] just because some wacko says they use CA or PP or whose ever method, does not mean they know how to use it correctly.
> 
> i do like some of parelli, but i like CA a lot more. hes good at pushing horses to get the most out of them, with out pushing them past their limit. my horse wouldnt be half the horse she is had i not trained her with his methods of groundwork.


Small difference in perception. I'll go with he's always been a smooth talker. Also an opportunist. And the opportunity to make lots of money came when the front range of CO started to be over developed with ranchette owning hobbyists.

The guy can basically ride and handle most horses. And if his games get people off the sofa and outside doing anything I'm cool with that. They have zero value in my world.

Years ago I started getting bombarded with requests from Parelli followers to come "help." Absolutely worthless, everyone of them. It took them sooo long to tack up their aged mares and geldings, and once on spent more time analyzing, in a Disney-fied way, what they thought their horse was thinking and what their horse wanted to do... I finally made a no parelli-ite rule on my place.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Padrona said:


> Yes Magic can and does ride bridleless. She is featured in many of his training videos, including some of the freestyle training videos where she is working on serpentines bridleless. I agree she looks very tight in this video and she's wearing a curb bit and Pat is using a lot of bit contact. He is not however using any MORE bit contact than any other big name trainer or competitor. He is not jerking on her face or yanking her head around. Have you watched the Road to the Horse videos of Clinton Anderson? He is literally **** near tearing the colt's bottom jaw off in the 2011 RTTH. I thought if he yanked and jerked any harder, thge reins would tear right off the bit. :evil:
> 
> Dressage horses usually have froth slobbering down their front legs and chests because of so much contact they can't even swallow. But that's considered "beautiful" and the foam is considered a "good thing." (I think it's horrible.)
> 
> I couldn't begin to say why Magic is requiring a curb bit and that much contact in that video. What I do know about her is that she was a very damaged, complicated, ruined horse that Pat essentially rescued. She had been through many trainers, was deemed unrideable and dangerous. The fact that Pat does everything he does with her is absolutely amazing, in my opinion.


Yanking on your horses face like Pat does in that video is just bad hands. It isn't necessary with that horse or that bit to yank and have your horse slobbering all over herself. A finished horse shouldnt need that kind of contact in the western world.. I don't care how messed up the horse was initially. The video nrareiner posted is how Pats horse should handle. The horse can do the same stuff just as well without all the contact Pat is giving. There's a huge lack of finesse in his riding.. All I see is a guy with no finesse bouncing a ball off a horse with some drippy music.. Horsemanship? I think not..


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## COWCHICK77

Speaking of the 2011Road to the Horse....LOL

Pat FALLS off of his colt. That colt just hogged around straight around the pen, Pat looked right at the ground and that was exactly where he landed. It became a YouTube sensation, Pat gets his panties twisted and has the video removed from YouTube. Instead of saying, yep I fell off, or I underestimated my dopey colt and use it as a teaching experience he 
pouts. I am sorry, but if you can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Palomine

No fan here, of him and her especially.

Found a video of her doing a jiggle jiggle thunk bit with long lead rope to a nice horse, that was clearly confused because the man she was "teaching" was whirling the rope like he was going to do Double Dutch.

Moron, her and him. Only smart one was the horse, and imagine he was thinking kill pen would have been better than her and his owner.

And saw video of a girl getting double barreled by a stallion while playing the "games"...don't know if she was killed or not, but stupid move to teach people stupid things.


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## jaydee

Padrona said:


> Yes Magic can and does ride bridleless. She is featured in many of his training videos, including some of the freestyle training videos where she is working on serpentines bridleless. I agree she looks very tight in this video and she's wearing a curb bit and Pat is using a lot of bit contact. He is not however using any MORE bit contact than any other big name trainer or competitor. He is not jerking on her face or yanking her head around. Have you watched the Road to the Horse videos of Clinton Anderson? He is literally **** near tearing the colt's bottom jaw off in the 2011 RTTH. I thought if he yanked and jerked any harder, thge reins would tear right off the bit. :evil:
> 
> Dressage horses usually have froth slobbering down their front legs and chests because of so much contact they can't even swallow. But that's considered "beautiful" and the foam is considered a "good thing." (I think it's horrible.)
> 
> I couldn't begin to say why Magic is requiring a curb bit and that much contact in that video. What I do know about her is that she was a very damaged, complicated, ruined horse that Pat essentially rescued. She had been through many trainers, was deemed unrideable and dangerous. The fact that Pat does everything he does with her is absolutely amazing, in my opinion.


 If the horse does perform so well bridleless then the problems you see with the bit in that video must come from his very poor hands - and they do look pretty bad to me
Loads of people take ruined damaged horses and transform them - no one starts getting all excited and declaring it amazing - its what good horsemen/women do and have been doing for years
What is the point in comparing bad with bad or bad with worse?
You also cant compare dressage riding with western - as far as contact goes they are total opposites


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## bsms

jaydee said:


> ...You also cant compare dressage riding with western - as far as contact goes they are total opposites


Don't worry. Linda Parelli has discovered the secret of riding with contact."After five years of intensive dressage training and mentoring from world renowned dressage master, Walter Zettl, Linda Parelli has decoded the secret of teaching “contact”, the elastic connection between horse and rider via the bit. Discovering this method after years of trying to get her Dutch Warmblood, Remmer, to enjoy and understand contact, Linda has impressed Zettl with her ability to explain the unexplainable."​And for just $306.60, she'll teach YOU how to ride with contact! Now that she has discovered it...:shock: :

Game of Contact DVD Parelli Natural Horsemanship










Want a taste?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhE1YIT3zAY​


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## nrhareiner

Ya I have seen her ride too. She makes her husband look like the worlds greatest rider.


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## jaydee

bsms said:


> Don't worry. Linda Parelli has discovered the secret of riding with contact.
> ​


​ Thanks for that - I'll sleep so much better at night knowing that the Parellis have come to rescue dressage riders everywhere:lol:
We are all doomed (You have to say that in a scottish accent to get full effect btw)
Afterthought - I watched the clip and struggling to understand how anyone could call themselves an experienced dressage rider (person under instruction)and not understand how to work their horse onto the bit????
Oh well.


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## nrhareiner

They wan how much for that rubbish? Really? Spend the $400 and get a good trainer for a month or quite a few lessons and really learn it correctly.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Wow.. Why is everything about these people a "game". "Oh my horse is an upside down backwards introvert, now let's play a game!".. It's quite the joke..


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## Pegasus1

I actually think this thread is a total waste of time now. 
It seems that the fact that many thousands of folks have been helped by the Parelli program, which must therefore have some good in it, is going to be overlooked in a storm of prejudice. 
There are those who say Pat has stolen all his knowledge from others, despite the fact that he always acknowledges his mentors. Everytime I have heard him use a stock phrase I have heard him say where it came from. The first few minutes of the colt starting video series is devoted to explaining who taught him and pointing out he is only passing on their knowledge. But folks still say he has done nothing original, he has stolen it all. A gross misrepresentation of the truth designed to reinforce their prejudice against him.
They say that he should not be followed as it is dangerous to follow a video program, but that Clinton Anderson is better. As far as I can see by searching the internet there are NO CA instructors in the UK. So following CA would be entirely dependent upon videos and by that logic much much worse than following Parelli who has many certified UK instructors.

So maybe all those folks who say I should not follow Parelli, but should follow Buck or Clinton or Mark Rashid or Stacey Westfall etc etc could do some googleing for me and find a good program that is available in the UK and has instructors that I can train with.


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## OliviaMyee

i have no idea who pat parrelli, what ever his name is... i dont solely like to rely on what all these other trainers say i think its valuable to go your own way, and my horse is my trainer atm.


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## jaydee

I am always baffled as to how any of these NH 'trainers' did make it into the UK - mostly by clever marketing, smoke and mirrors.
The style of riding is aimed at the Western market because thats where it grew from - but we dont traditionally ride like that in the UK, our riding style evolved from the basic dressage contact combined with the 'all purpose seat'
NH was a way to distance the US from the old style bronc busting, treat 'em mean way of doing things - but the UK traditional method of breaking horses is historically to get them used to being handled (which was always done in a stable), groundwork, lunging, long reining and then the transition into being ridden
Maybe the people in the UK who find a need for people like PP and Monty Roberts should look back to their own roots because if so many are finding themselves with problems I'm pretty sure the blame mostly lies with people biting off more than they can chew and too many inexperienced people trying to break & train horses rather than pay someone to do the job properly
PP may not have stolen his knowledge in as much as he acknowledges who he learnt from and does give them credit for that but this was information freely given and now he's packaging it and selling it.


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## Saddlebag

Of PP, or the machine behind him, didn't package these methods, how would people learn about cruelty free training? Many thousands have learned from him and other advocates of this way.


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## bsms

Actually, as some of the quotes I provided above show, it is PAT AND LINDA PARELLI who claim their teachings are "_revolutionary_" and even provides "_magical results_". They claim they have "discovered" how to teach a horse to ride with contact. It is NOT unfair to take what they say at face value. Someone whose website announces on its webpage that they are "revolutionary" IS claiming to provide something new, something so unheard of as to be a revolution.

When I quote from their homepage, I'm not slandering them with "a gross misrepresentation of the truth", other than to let their own words weigh in against them.

I have said I'm opposed to using video programs to train horses, but I have not said I think Clinton Anderson is better. On the contrary, I have said I oppose anyone who suggest their video training "_allows horse owners at all levels of experience (from trail rider to Olympic level Dressage rider) to achieve success without force, partnership without dominance and harmony without coercion_"- again quoting Pat Parelli's website.

Is there some good in it? Maybe. There is some good in a lot of training videos, and in books. Is the hype to help ratio a bit high? I'd say yes:"_Two hearts. Two minds. Two days. One vision.

Linda and Pat Parelli. Live. Love, Language and Leadership and a revolution in the heart and mind of every Horse Lover.

Where will YOU be?_"​Or:"_It’s 8:00 on a crisp, cool Saturday morning. You and a few of your closest friends are just pulling into the arena parking lot when you see – and hear – the laughing, dancing, screaming crowd outside. They’re snapping pictures on their phones, sipping hot coffee out of their thermoses, and they’re all wondering the same thing you are:

“What are we going to see?!”_​If those are the only trainers in the UK, then I guess you'll have to put up with the hype to get the help. I don't think the idea of training a horse to be a partner is so radical that no one else in England trains that way. Maybe the traditional English style of training is to whip and spur a horse into a bloody, submissive mess - but I doubt it. There are too many English riders on HF who obviously love and enjoy their horses.

I think many of us who aren't crazy about Parelli are reacting to the hype. And it could well be that many Parelli trainers train without the hype, and use the Parelli name as marketing, and to reassure folks they aren't trainers who beat a horse into submission. I suspect there are a number of darned good 'Parelli trainers' who would do a fine job with a horse. 

But I don't think Pat Parelli walks on water, and I would avoid any horse advertised as "Parelli trained" OR "Clinton Anderson trained" unless the name of the professional trainer following those methods was included. I would actually prefer to contact the local, unknown trainer who worked with Lilly, Trooper and Mia, and see if she knew of any horses...

I'm glad you've worked with a local trainer who helped you a lot and taught you a lot. That is great. If he felt comfortable training horses using Parelli methods, that is fine too. But I'd also like you to understand why a lot of folks in southern Arizona have an adverse reaction when they hear "Parelli trained horse"...


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## bsms

Saddlebag said:


> Of PP, or the machine behind him, didn't package these methods, how would people learn about cruelty free training? Many thousands have learned from him and other advocates of this way.


There are TONS of trainers who don't abuse horses. Writing in the 1800s, Teddy Roosevelt discussed the horse wranglers who were paid to break a wild horse in 3 rides, but he also mentioned that horses trained for an individual owner were taught over months instead, because that resulted in a much better horse.

There have always been folks who trained horses well. The picture below is of a British Army procured horse in World War 1, resting with a rider who probably had been a city boy a few months earlier. They were approaching the front lines, but had a short break. As you can see, there was a trusting relationship :


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## nrhareiner

Pegasus1 said:


> I actually think this thread is a total waste of time now.
> It seems that the fact that many thousands of folks have been helped by the Parelli program, which must therefore have some good in it, is going to be overlooked in a storm of prejudice.
> There are those who say Pat has stolen all his knowledge from others, despite the fact that he always acknowledges his mentors. Everytime I have heard him use a stock phrase I have heard him say where it came from. The first few minutes of the colt starting video series is devoted to explaining who taught him and pointing out he is only passing on their knowledge. But folks still say he has done nothing original, he has stolen it all. A gross misrepresentation of the truth designed to reinforce their prejudice against him.
> They say that he should not be followed as it is dangerous to follow a video program, but that Clinton Anderson is better. As far as I can see by searching the internet there are NO CA instructors in the UK. So following CA would be entirely dependent upon videos and by that logic much much worse than following Parelli who has many certified UK instructors.
> 
> So maybe all those folks who say I should not follow Parelli, but should follow Buck or Clinton or Mark Rashid or Stacey Westfall etc etc could do some googleing for me and find a good program that is available in the UK and has instructors that I can train with.


See here is my problem. DO NOT FOLLOW ANY of them. Go out and find a good reputable PROVEN trainer and use them. The amount of money you spend on these DVDs you could have gotten a lot of lessons. Then if you wish to check out some DVDs go for it but use DVDs from trainers Not clinitions who have PROVEN then what they do work. Do I have DVDs on training? Sure I do. However the one thing you will find as a common thread through them all is that there is not program. There is only good training techneques and all the people doing these DVDs are PROVEN trainers.

See the common thread through what I am saying?? PROVEN.

While some of PP followers may be getting good results the fact is that for every one person who does I can show you 10 who do not. I will also bet that the ones who do have one thing in common. They would have done well with out PP and his program.


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## gypsygirl

^^i agree with you

i am that person pretty much. when i got my mare as a basically unhandled 3yo, i had had a lot of experience training horses, but with her i was just not sure where to start. i had never worked with anything that green. i started watching CA dvds and they helped me a ton ! but i wasnt a green horse person. i already had good feel and experience.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Pegasus1 said:


> I actually think this thread is a total waste of time now.
> It seems that the fact that many thousands of folks have been helped by the Parelli program, which must therefore have some good in it, is going to be overlooked in a storm of prejudice.
> There are those who say Pat has stolen all his knowledge from others, despite the fact that he always acknowledges his mentors. Everytime I have heard him use a stock phrase I have heard him say where it came from. The first few minutes of the colt starting video series is devoted to explaining who taught him and pointing out he is only passing on their knowledge. But folks still say he has done nothing original, he has stolen it all. A gross misrepresentation of the truth designed to reinforce their prejudice against him.
> They say that he should not be followed as it is dangerous to follow a video program, but that Clinton Anderson is better. As far as I can see by searching the internet there are NO CA instructors in the UK. So following CA would be entirely dependent upon videos and by that logic much much worse than following Parelli who has many certified UK instructors.
> 
> So maybe all those folks who say I should not follow Parelli, but should follow Buck or Clinton or Mark Rashid or Stacey Westfall etc etc could do some googleing for me and find a good program that is available in the UK and has instructors that I can train with.


I dont care for CA either. But Pat is a bad rider. He's choppy, has no finesse and is constantly yanking on their mouth. In all of the videos I've watched of him. and the horses that I have retrained that were started by Parelli certified trainers relied on contact to function. I couldn't get the horses to lope without pulling back on their mouths first. In the western world, a horse shouldn't do that. It's the exact opposite of the correct way. In a western training world, we strive to have our horses respond to the slightest cue. There are better trainers out there. Pat marketed himself good with big words and the micro-analyzation of the horse's every move. It isnt that complicated. I would think a trainer with that big of name and that many followers would strive a little better to improve his riding and responsiveness of his horses. But "he's Pat Parelli, he must know it all". And he sure thinks he does.. Its sad that people will follow someone with that poor of hands..


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## Dame Nuit

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Pat marketed himself good with big words and the micro-analyzation of the horse's every move. It isnt that complicated.


LOL! :lol: that's surely the reason why you tie them tight with hobbles : to micro-analyze the way they move! :lol: And you think you're the one who can tell who has à poor technic... 
You're really funny! :wink:


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## Pegasus1

nrhareiner said:


> See here is my problem. DO NOT FOLLOW ANY of them. Go out and find a good reputable PROVEN trainer and use them. The amount of money you spend on these DVDs you could have gotten a lot of lessons. Then if you wish to check out some DVDs go for it but use DVDs from trainers Not clinitions who have PROVEN then what they do work. Do I have DVDs on training? Sure I do. However the one thing you will find as a common thread through them all is that there is not program. There is only good training techneques and all the people doing these DVDs are PROVEN trainers.
> 
> See the common thread through what I am saying?? PROVEN.
> 
> While some of PP followers may be getting good results the fact is that for every one person who does I can show you 10 who do not. I will also bet that the ones who do have one thing in common. They would have done well with out PP and his program.


Do you realise how few trainers there are who are not associated with a clinician or the BHS ? If you have your sort of experience you probably don't need a trainer and can tell a good trainer from a bad one. If you don't have that experience then you can't make that judgement so easily. As a result, having seen some "independent" trainers at my yard ("that's it kick him hard now, keep kicking, keep kicking, ok use the whip"!! no exaggeration, I heard it a week ago ) I don't want to get involved. 
Whatever you may think of Pat I have been very impressed by the standard of instructors his program produces, especially the ones with 2 stars or more. And I do know good instruction when I see it having been a professional flying instructor for many years. Therefore I would prefer to stick with instructors trained and monitored by his program than take pot luck on an independent. 
I could go down the BHS instructors route, but a) they do not promote the kind of lightness in riding I like and b) they are most certainly not "natural".


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## Pegasus1

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I dont care for CA either. But Pat is a bad rider. He's choppy, has no finesse and is constantly yanking on their mouth. In all of the videos I've watched of him. and the horses that I have retrained that were started by Parelli certified trainers relied on contact to function. I couldn't get the horses to lope without pulling back on their mouths first. In the western world, a horse shouldn't do that. It's the exact opposite of the correct way. In a western training world, we strive to have our horses respond to the slightest cue. There are better trainers out there. Pat marketed himself good with big words and the micro-analyzation of the horse's every move. It isnt that complicated. I would think a trainer with that big of name and that many followers would strive a little better to improve his riding and responsiveness of his horses. But "he's Pat Parelli, he must know it all". And he sure thinks he does.. Its sad that people will follow someone with that poor of hands..


Odd as he strongly suggests that you can do many many patterns with your horse with no contact even on the halter, let alone bit. Freestyle riding he calls it which means end of the buckle or bridle-less. Only when these patterns are good and solid do you start taking up a contact at all. 
Could it be that those trainers you encountered were too impatient to do the foundation properly ?


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## horsecrazy4848

Honestly not my favorite but not the worst I've seen.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Dame Nuit said:


> LOL! :lol: that's surely the reason why you tie them tight with hobbles : to micro-analyze the way they move! :lol: And you think you're the one who can tell who has à poor technic...
> You're really funny! :wink:


Not entirely sure what you are talking about...


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## Wanstrom Horses

Pegasus1 said:


> Odd as he strongly suggests that you can do many many patterns with your horse with no contact even on the halter, let alone bit. Freestyle riding he calls it which means end of the buckle or bridle-less. Only when these patterns are good and solid do you start taking up a contact at all.
> Could it be that those trainers you encountered were too impatient to do the foundation properly ?


Possibly, but as certified Parelli trainers, Im not seeing anything great in his so called "horsemanship"


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## nrhareiner

Pegasus1 said:


> Do you realise how few trainers there are who are not associated with a clinician or the BHS ? If you have your sort of experience you probably don't need a trainer and can tell a good trainer from a bad one. If you don't have that experience then you can't make that judgement so easily. As a result, having seen some "independent" trainers at my yard ("that's it kick him hard now, keep kicking, keep kicking, ok use the whip"!! no exaggeration, I heard it a week ago ) I don't want to get involved.
> Whatever you may think of Pat I have been very impressed by the standard of instructors his program produces, especially the ones with 2 stars or more. And I do know good instruction when I see it having been a professional flying instructor for many years. Therefore I would prefer to stick with instructors trained and monitored by his program than take pot luck on an independent.
> I could go down the BHS instructors route, but a) they do not promote the kind of lightness in riding I like and b) they are most certainly not "natural".


If that is all you have to chose from where you are I feel really bad for the horses. Around here there are plenty of good proven trainers. Just with in a few hours I have a multi million $$ trainer and a lot of other well proven trainers. 

Finding a good trainer it not that hard. Even for a newer rider. All you have to do is be willing to do your homework and spend a bit of money on one. You get what you pay for. Too many people seem to think they can do it on their own with just a DVD or the net to help them out. To this day I still use trainers for my horses. 

I have yet to see a PP certified trainer that I would let swing a leg over one of my finished horses let along train one.


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## nrhareiner

Pegasus1 said:


> Odd as he strongly suggests that you can do many many patterns with your horse with no contact even on the halter, let alone bit. Freestyle riding he calls it which means end of the buckle or bridle-less. Only when these patterns are good and solid do you start taking up a contact at all.
> Could it be that those trainers you encountered were too impatient to do the foundation properly ?


Yet I have not seen a single time where he is actually doing this. All I see is him yanking on horses or sticking his carrot sick in their face to get them to move over or do anything.


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## Northern

I feel that there are many issues which must be discerned to the question of whether PNH is good, bad or indifferent:

1. Marketing hype question (btw, "revolutionary" was not referring to horsemanship in the quote, it was referring to the heart & mind of the student - a revolution in the heart & mind.)

2. Whether dvd's/written material are workable for every student, sans a real live instructor being there with the student. 

They HAVE worked for thousands of students, happily, for their horses, many of whom were facing an uncertain future prior to PNH. This is FACT, which must be acknowledged. It's not to say that some other program properly applied would've done as well, but all of the programs that those horses HAD BEEN put through HADN'T worked (whether independent "trainers" or big-name clinicians).

3. Whether some certified PNH instructors were given certification unjustifiably, thus giving PNH a bad rep.

4. Whether the program is too costly.

5. Whether the PP's cover up their horsemanship errors with smoke & mirrors (Catwalk, Barney, etc.)

6. Whether the PP's cover up their husbandry errors with smoke & mirrors (Westfall's fatal accident while not being ridden, rumor of their watering program causing deaths of two-three horses who were last to get to the water each time because low in hierarchy, Remmer being allowed to get overweight & develop hoof problems, their star horses disappearing from the headlines, their horses being retired too early, etc.)

7. Whether the PP's exaggerate about their success with horses, (others trained them prior to PP's, but the story is that the horses were killers & all success is due to the PP's, e.g.)

8. Whether their students have a cultic devotion to PNH, leading to protection of them rather than honest answers, etc.

9. Whether the HORSEMANSHIP (it's in there somewhere  is truly solid, ALL the way through, including from the point that Linda started assuming authority to bring her own "epiphanies" to the table for inclusion into the official program.

10. Whether Pat has allowed Linda to do the above, EVEN THOUGH SHE HAS ERRED in her directives, & allowed these errors into the program, for the sake of the marriage or whatever reason. Case in point: Level 2, "sit heavily on your horse in back-up". Pat HAD to have known that this was false, yet it's in Level 2. Several years went by before Linda slid in a correction on that, in a Savvy Club dvd. 

10. Whether such corrections have been handled appropriately (how many missed the SC dvd correction & are still sitting heavily to back?)

11. Whether other instructors whom they bring on board (latest is bio-mechanical "expert" Colleen Kelly) are themselves qualified.

And so on.


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## bsms

Northern said:


> ...Marketing hype question (btw, "revolutionary" was not referring to horsemanship in the quote, it was referring to the heart & mind of the student - a revolution in the heart & mind.)...


I disagree.

From their website:For those who want to understand horses and learn the revolutionary Parelli Program for natural horse training,

One of the magical results of Parelli natural horse training method

Linda Parelli has spent the last five years immersing herself in the world of dressage, discovering ways of applying natural horsemanship principles to the world outside of Parelli...Linda shares her revolutionary work in horse psychology, as well as sharing the secret to achieving contact in her Game of Contact sessions.

Linda Parelli has decoded the secret of teaching “contact”, the elastic connection between horse and rider via the bit. Discovering this method after years of trying to get her Dutch Warmblood, Remmer, to enjoy and understand contact...​They are calling the Parelli SYSTEM revolutionary. Linda did revolutionary work in horse psychology. She's discovering how to teach horses to ride with contact!

Those are not the words of someone saying, "I learned a lot from some great guys, and when I share it with you, YOUR life will be revolutionized!" IMHO.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Northern said:


> I feel that there are many issues which must be discerned to the question of whether PNH is good, bad or indifferent:
> 
> 1. Marketing hype question (btw, "revolutionary" was not referring to horsemanship in the quote, it was referring to the heart & mind of the student - a revolution in the heart & mind.)
> 
> 2. Whether dvd's/written material are workable for every student, sans a real live instructor being there with the student.
> 
> They HAVE worked for thousands of students, happily, for their horses, many of whom were facing an uncertain future prior to PNH. This is FACT, which must be acknowledged. It's not to say that some other program properly applied would've done as well, but all of the programs that those horses HAD BEEN put through HADN'T worked (whether independent "trainers" or big-name clinicians).
> 
> 3. Whether some certified PNH instructors were given certification unjustifiably, thus giving PNH a bad rep.
> 
> 4. Whether the program is too costly.
> 
> 5. Whether the PP's cover up their horsemanship errors with smoke & mirrors (Catwalk, Barney, etc.)
> 
> 6. Whether the PP's cover up their husbandry errors with smoke & mirrors (Westfall's fatal accident while not being ridden, rumor of their watering program causing deaths of two-three horses who were last to get to the water each time because low in hierarchy, Remmer being allowed to get overweight & develop hoof problems, their star horses disappearing from the headlines, their horses being retired too early, etc.)
> 
> 7. Whether the PP's exaggerate about their success with horses, (others trained them prior to PP's, but the story is that the horses were killers & all success is due to the PP's, e.g.)
> 
> 8. Whether their students have a cultic devotion to PNH, leading to protection of them rather than honest answers, etc.
> 
> 9. Whether the HORSEMANSHIP (it's in there somewhere  is truly solid, ALL the way through, including from the point that Linda started assuming authority to bring her own "epiphanies" to the table for inclusion into the official program.
> 
> 10. Whether Pat has allowed Linda to do the above, EVEN THOUGH SHE HAS ERRED in her directives, & allowed these errors into the program, for the sake of the marriage or whatever reason. Case in point: Level 2, "sit heavily on your horse in back-up". Pat HAD to have known that this was false, yet it's in Level 2. Several years went by before Linda slid in a correction on that, in a Savvy Club dvd.
> 
> 10. Whether such corrections have been handled appropriately (how many missed the SC dvd correction & are still sitting heavily to back?)
> 
> 11. Whether other instructors whom they bring on board (latest is bio-mechanical "expert" Colleen Kelly) are themselves qualified.
> 
> And so on.


That's too many ifs, ands, buts, and whethers for me. Pat really only made it to success, like a stated again with good marketing. And a vast majority of backyard trainers that follow..


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## Wanstrom Horses

Dame Nuit said:


> LOL! :lol: that's surely the reason why you tie them tight with hobbles : to micro-analyze the way they move! :lol: And you think you're the one who can tell who has à poor technic...
> You're really funny! :wink:


And if you look into it more, it isn't "tying them tight with hobbles", still not exactly sure what that means. I can tie a simple little string around my horses front legs and they don't move. It's training them to yield to pressure on their legs. If that's poor horsemanship, then everyone had better quit halter breaking their horses because it's the same concept. It's the only way you can train a horse to not cut themselves to ribbons if they get caught in a fence. But that must be poor horsemanship too huh? So must having a horse so light in the face that they move with the lift of a rein. That must be really poor technique also. I know what works for the horses I ride, and Pats complicated, fluffy methods and his overall terrible seat and hands doesn't work.. Seems pretty funny to me..


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## MajorSealstheDeal

I have a friend who is basically obsessed with Parelli right now. I gave it a try, did the basic seven games one day with my mare. I'd dabbled in them before a few years ago, so it wasn't like it was brand new to me. I mean, it was fun, but I definitely didnt want to do it again the next day. I just wanted to ride.

I tried watching the level one dvds, and I could hardly get past the introduction. I liked the seven games (that's all I really know about his methods), but something about him just rubbed me the wrong way. I wasn't crazy about the way he worked with the horse, and I couldn't get through all the fluff with his wife and that other lady. 

My friend is an experenced horsewomen with a lot of success under her belt. And now she's saying things like "don't do that, you don't want the mto think you're a predator", ok maybe I could see that being relevant to the two year old we are working with, but not my five year old mare. Trust me, she knows I'm not going to eat her. 

So my opinion on Parelli is pretty indifferent, if not slightly annoyed by it. 

Now when I watched Buck Brannaman's documentary, that was something else. So I'm not anti-NH, but I'm not going to follow one trainer religiously.


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## Northern

bsms said:


> "_Two hearts. Two minds. Two days. One vision._
> 
> _Linda and Pat Parelli. Live. Love, Language and Leadership and a *revolution in the heart and mind of every Horse Lover.*_
> 
> ...​




bsms, I was going by your quote here. Thanks for the further quotes using the word, "revolutionary" as applying to the horsemanship coming out of PNH. In fact, I was wondering if they'd gone to doing that, since I've been out of the loop for a while, (figured you'd set me straight if I was wrong) & my worst fears have been confirmed.:wink::-( 

Yet, I must point out that this is another_ change_: Pat himself has always maintained that his horsemanship is "so old, it's new again!" Can't get much clearer than that, that he's not claiming to have invented it. As Pegasus said, he's also always been careful to publicly credit his mentors (Dorrances, Troy Henry, etc.) for teaching him horsemanship. He's also said that PNH is just "vaquero" horsemanship.

I also point out that, rather than Pat, it's LINDA advertising her "epiphanies" & her "revolutionary approach". This is an example of the "Linda point" on my list.​


Wanstrom Horses said:


> That's too many ifs, ands, buts, and whethers for me...


I listed the issues to be of help to those trying to decide which way to go.

Here are a couple more issues that people may not want to deal with:

1. Whether or not the student's questions, from working through the home study program, will get answered correctly, will get answered without requirement that student join online discussion at a fee, will get answered even if student pays & joins. 

2. Whether or not the student wants to spend a lot of time online, as PNH seems to have morphed into a strong online community, with several websites, participation in which seems to have become essential to success in the program. Buck Brannaman has no such pressure to be online, as an example of the other way to live.:wink:


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## COWCHICK77

Northern said:


> He's also said that PNH is just "vaquero" horsemanship.



You can put socks in the oven but that don't make them biscuits.....


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## Northern

COWCHICK77 said:


> You can put socks in the oven but that don't make them biscuits.....


Whether PNH IS vaquero hms is a separate issue, & not the point PP was making; the point he was making is that PNH is nothing NEW, nothing he invented.


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## nrhareiner

Yet he calls it PNH. Why is that?


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## Wanstrom Horses

Northern said:


> Whether PNH IS vaquero hms is a separate issue, & not the point PP was making; the point he was making is that PNH is nothing NEW, nothing he invented.


That's the farthest thing from vaquero horsemanship I've ever seen...


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## Dame Nuit

Of course it's not that vaquero stuff! :lol: 
Or nobody would pay attention to PP! 
Who would want to ride vaquero when you know how to do better? :twisted:


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## Pegasus1

nrhareiner said:


> Yet he calls it PNH. Why is that?


I don't know, maybe because he coined the phrase "Natural Horsemanship" in the first place ?

Source "The Revolution in Horsemanship" by Robert M Miller and Rick Lamb. page 35. Quote "In the 1980s, Pat Parelli coined the term "natural horsemanship" and gave the name to an entire movement"


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## Pegasus1

On the subject of Linda I tend to agree that she is not a good rider. Her epiphanies annoy me and many other Parelli students as well. Especially the "Game of Contact". 
I think the major mistake was allowing Linda onto videos before she was ready (marital pressure ?). She seemed to be barely level 3 when she made some of the earlier videos. That was a mistake.
However I have to say that the recent batch of monthly DVDs have Linda teaching a student on them and they are very good. But in general I pay more attention to Pat than Linda. Fortunately on the website you can filter out videos from Linda when searching for a particular subject  .
But I am not throwing out an entire program because they have made mistakes. I think most folks have enough intelligence to filter the wheat from the chaff, as is shown on this forum by the number of poor videos that antis can find and recognise them as such. Or do you all think that you are so far above my standard that only you can see that the videos are bad and I need protecting from them ?
As for poor hands my I remind you that former Paralympic Gold medallist Lauren Barwick was living and studying on the Parelli ranch prior to winning gold. I guess some of the students aren't no-hopers after all. She even came on tour with Parelli to the UK after her win and gave a very moving half hour talk on her progress to Beijing in front of 6000 people. There were 12000 eyes crying after that.


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## Dame Nuit

COWCHICK77 said:


> And no one follows Buck Branaman....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Somewhere else than in the Unites States? Show me...


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## Wanstrom Horses

Dame Nuit said:


> Of course it's not that vaquero stuff! :lol:
> Or nobody would pay attention to PP!
> Who would want to ride vaquero when you know how to do better? :twisted:


I agree with Cowchick. I'm glad I haven't encountered you before. The problem more people don't train with vaquero ways is they are either uneducated, don't have the correct seat or light hands, or don't have the experience with horses to do so. All NH is a way to cut corners in training the proper horse, so sadly everyone can buy a DVD on training and think they are a big shot horse trainer. When most horses have holes the size of trucks in their training. Better way? I'm not seeing it.


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## Dame Nuit

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Better way? I'm not seeing it.


Can you see it now? 
















Prix France Bleu - Michel Robert / Catapulte - Vidéo Dailymotion






And we can do all of that things without putting a gun in the horse's mouth! :lol:


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## bsms

Dame Nuit said:


> ...And we can do all of that things without putting a gun in the horse's mouth! :lol:


(In my best John Wayne accent): I'm glad you SMILED when you said that, Pilgrim!


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## WorshipWarrior83

I will say this. There are things I like about Parelli at least at level 1 which is all that Ive watched but there are also many things I like about CA, Chris Cox, and Stacey Westfall. I think they all have things to bring to the table and I think hating on one particular trainer because of his marketing methods and/or poor riding ability doesnt mean they don't have something good to share it just means take any trainers advice with a grain of salt if you are not getting one on one time with that trainer. 

Im not about to hate on PP or CA. They are both accomplished trainers and you can dislike things about them or the way they handle themselves but they still have well trained horses.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Dame Nuit said:


> Can you see it now?
> 
> bartabas galop en marche arriere - YouTube
> 
> Zingaro, Bartabas - YouTube
> 
> Catherine Henriquet - dressage en licol - YouTube
> 
> Prix France Bleu - Michel Robert / Catapulte - Vidéo Dailymotion
> 
> Lorenzo spectacle ALBI le 11/03/12 épatant ! - YouTube
> 
> And we can do all of that things without putting a gun in the horse's mouth! :lol:


Ehhh. Doesn't impress me, at all. Cuz I can do all the same stuff with my horses, without a bridle, I'm not going to try and explain this to you, you are obviously too ignorant to be wasting my time. Any Parelli horse I have encountered has been well bored and actually quiet annoyed with his meaningless so called games. I want to get a job done with my horses, I have to that's how I make a living. Not just play a game and dink around with my horses in the arena. People have been training it the vaquero way for hundreds of years, and it's passed down through the generations as learned inheritance. But I'm not wasting my time any further. I suggest before your make snide comments on a subject you know absolutely nothing about, read this link..

Vaquero Enterprises - Featuring Cowboy and Western Artist Ernest Morris


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Or watch this video. And this isn't even a finished horse.


----------



## Dame Nuit

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Or watch this video. And this isn't even a finished horse.
> 
> Vaquero Bridle Horse Sale - YouTube


I just feel sorry for the horse when I see What he has in his mouth and the guy pulling the rein. 
He sure to the job, or he will have his skull broken by the bit. :?


----------



## nrhareiner

Pegasus1 said:


> I don't know, maybe because he coined the phrase "Natural Horsemanship" in the first place ?
> 
> Source "The Revolution in Horsemanship" by Robert M Miller and Rick Lamb. page 35. Quote "In the 1980s, Pat Parelli coined the term "natural horsemanship" and gave the name to an entire movement"



No he did not. NH and that term has been around a lot longer then PP. While he MAY have made the term more main stream he did not come up with it. NH has been around for more years then any of the trainers want you to think.


----------



## BBBCrone

When it comes to horse training, a trainer can comment with knowledge on another trainers ability or lack there of.


----------



## nrhareiner

Dame Nuit said:


> I just feel sorry for the horse when I see What he has in his mouth and the guy pulling the rein.
> He sure to the job, or he will have his skull broken by the bit. :?


Not sure what video you where watching but that was a very nice example of a well trained youngster. The riders hands never moved the horse was on a loose rein the whole time. The horse was in a transition time as he had a bit and a bosel. Again I think you need to learn what you are looking at before you open your mouth.


----------



## Dame Nuit

BBBCrone said:


> When it comes to horse training, a trainer can comment with knowledge on another trainers ability or lack there of.


Do you call somebody thinking that with his vaquero horses she could do the same thing that Michel Robert (that mean jumping over 1.50m obstacles) is a trainer? :lol:


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Dame Nuit said:


> I just feel sorry for the horse when I see What he has in his mouth and the guy pulling the rein.
> He sure to the job, or he will have his skull broken by the bit. :?


See you don't get it. He isn't plowing on the bit, you never see the horses mouth gape open. He's pulling on the bosallito under the bridle. I saw a lot of mouth gaping on the horse in the video you posted. I've studied NH. I've tried a few things. It doesnt work if you want nice reining ranch horses. And the hardest part about training NH? Is taking it back out of the horses. I've had my fair share of it. And I don't like it, simple as that. The sad thing about you is that you know nothing about vaquero horsemanship. At least I gave NH a chance..


----------



## Dame Nuit

nrhareiner said:


> Not sure what video you where watching


I'm speaking of this video : 
Vaquero Bridle Horse Sale - YouTube

Guy pulls his reins at : 
0'10
0'50
0'57
1'51
2'35
2'40
2'42


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Take those horse out in the open, try and docotor a cow, sort pairs, all doing it with slight movements of a rein. It won't get done. Yes they are great in the arena, but outside the arena? They are nothing more than large dogs..


----------



## bsms

Actually, a lot of folks who don't "do" Parelli see more than enough "Parelli horses" to form an opinion of the overall training. I haven't seen a horse trained by a top Parelli instructor, so I won't comment on those. But if Parelli wants to claim his revolutionary techniques work for all riders and are magical, then he can accept the evaluation folks make based on the horses they meet.

I rode Mia with a leveraged bit for the first time Monday. As leveraged bits go, it was pretty mild. But then, it was my first time with a leveraged bit, and I know I'm not a good rider. The leverage on this particular bit wasn't very much, but I could see right away how taking my right little finger from under the rein to resting it on top of the rein was enough to send a message to Mia. [BTW - for unknown reasons, my left little finger is always on top of the rein, and my right is normally underneath. I have no idea why I do that...]

Bits are about communication, not pain. That ought to be horsemanship 101. If I'm careful - and admittedly there are lots who are not - I think a leveraged bit might help both Mia and I to develop a more nuanced and subtle communication as we ride together.

And riding "together" isn't something new. Does anyone really believe Robert E. Lee yanked Traveller's face around? There was another Civil War general who was famous for his brutality. Even among his staff, he was known for decking someone who disturbed him. Yet in one battle, when he had to switch horses because of the horse's injuries, the first horse got loose...and raced across the battlefield to rejoin "his" rider.

There have always been folks who were good with horses and to them. The idea that only the last 50 years has seen good treatment of horses by men is silliness.


----------



## jaydee

nrhareiner said:


> If that is all you have to chose from where you are I feel really bad for the horses. Around here there are plenty of good proven trainers. Just with in a few hours I have a multi million $$ trainer and a lot of other well proven trainers.
> 
> Finding a good trainer it not that hard. Even for a newer rider. All you have to do is be willing to do your homework and spend a bit of money on one. You get what you pay for. Too many people seem to think they can do it on their own with just a DVD or the net to help them out. To this day I still use trainers for my horses.
> 
> I have yet to see a PP certified trainer that I would let swing a leg over one of my finished horses let along train one.


 The UK is overflowing with good trainers and because its so small its easy to access them so no excuse for not being able to find someone you can work with. 
How else do we manage to produce top event, showjumping & dressage riders - I'm pretty sure that they mostly managed to get to where they are without PP
And please dont throw Robert Whittaker at me - he may have some links to James Roberts but his family were producing top horses before PP was even heard of.
How do you blame an instructor for a client that has a lazy horse that cant be bothered to work - because she tells the rider to kick it and then whip it to get it moving. That horse is a description of what a huge % of the horse population own - because they lack the desire & confidence to ride a horse that's forward going. 
The Pony Club and BHS all stress the importance of light contact - a horse cant go forward fluidly and with 'spark' if you're hanging onto its head with a vice like grip
I dont understand what *Pegasus* means by 'less natural' so I cant respond to that
Cruelty tends to come from two directions -
People who have a mental disposition to want to hurt animals - and nothing will ever change them &
Ignorance - which is usually more associated with owners not understanding the needs of the horse so neglecting it - no excuse for that as even before the age of the internet there have been thousands of books and magazines written that give clear and ample advice on how to correctly care for horses
The Pony Club was founded in 1928 and the BHS in 1947 - they are both easily accessible and always willing to give advice - they may seem a bit 'stuffy' on the outside but their priority has always been for the good welfare of the horse and to encourage owners in good practices
PP has done nothing to make the UK a kinder place - it didnt have a problem to start with - just new age horse owners - people who cant get off their backsides and find 'real life' trainers, take good lessons and look for opportunities to get hands on management training. (Its what we used to do) They would rather sit on their butts in front of a video in comfort
NOTE: I was friendly with a US family in the late 60's who had moved to the UK and they were far from cruel, I also knew a US farrier who married a british woman and moved to the UK with his quarter horse - that was in the early 70's and he was wonderful around that mare - to listen to some of it you'd think the entire US nation were thrashing the hides off their animals before PP appeared to 'save them all'


----------



## BBBCrone

Well yeah ... because I'm pretty darned confident that if that's what she wanted to do, she could easily do it. *shrugs*

But I'm not going to get baited into your game here. You obviously think anyone who doesn't follow Parrelli has no knowledge. Someone who follows a different tradition has no knowledge and makes you feel sick. Since I don't subscribe to that line of thinking we will never agree.


----------



## Dame Nuit

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I saw a lot of mouth gaping on the horse in the video you posted.


What you saw was not horse mouth gaping, but horse chewing. What we want to have the horse do. Because when a horse is chewing, he has his whole back relaxed and so he has a better locomotion. 
I'm affraid you're not able ta do the same thing with your vaquero horses. 
And I'm affraid, the vaquero's way is not the only way to ride a horse. 

Open your window! The world is so wade! You have to discover it! :lol:


----------



## jaydee

PS
I doubt if anyone in the UK had ever even heard of a gum chain - never mind used one - before PP demonstrated it so ably on Catwalk


----------



## Dame Nuit

BBBCrone said:


> You obviously think anyone who doesn't follow Parrelli has no knowledge.


Not at all! :lol: I just see that those who say they don't like the method just don't know how it works. 



BBBCrone said:


> Someone who follows a different tradition has no knowledge and makes you feel sick.


No only the vaquero's way to ride a horse, using a bit that could break its skull... There are plenty of traditions to ride a horse, very few of them use such brutal tacks.


----------



## nrhareiner

Dame Nuit said:


> I'm speaking of this video :
> Vaquero Bridle Horse Sale - YouTube
> 
> Guy pulls his reins at :
> 0'10
> 0'50
> 0'57
> 1'51
> 2'35
> 2'40
> 2'42


And again I ask what video are you watching? That was in no way pulling the reins. Again I point you back to the PP video I posted. That was pulling on the reins. What you see in that video is not at all pulling on the reins. The horses mouth never opens. The guys hands never leave that small area. The horse has 2 bridles on. What you are seeing a very nicely started young horse in a transition between the bosel and a bridle. I would have no problem owning that horse. It would take very little to make him a very nice reiner.


----------



## Dame Nuit

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Yes they are great in the arena, but outside the arena? They are nothing more than large dogs..


You have to be so affraid of horses to said such a silly thing! :shock:


----------



## Muppetgirl

Dame Nuit said:


> I'm speaking of this video :
> Vaquero Bridle Horse Sale - YouTube
> 
> Guy pulls his reins at :
> 0'10
> 0'50
> 0'57
> 1'51
> 2'35
> 2'40
> 2'42


If you have payed attention to anything other than PP, and bothered to educate youself about bridle horse training you'd have known that the rider was working of the bosalito and not 'yanking' on the reins........
Any good horseman knows at some point during training you're going to have to touch a horses mouth......it's just fact. 
Gee, I must be a monster, I ride my horse in a ported correction, high and low - and *gasp* once a month I put a cathedral bit in his month.......I guess I will never pass your standard of horsemanship......oh well......I'm not losing any sleep over it......


----------



## Muppetgirl

Dame Nuit said:


> Not at all! :lol: I just see that those who say they don't like the method just don't know how it works.
> 
> 
> No only the vaquero's way to ride a horse, using a bit that could break its skull... There are plenty of traditions to ride a horse, very few of them use such brutal tacks.


Haha, the bit could break the horses skull? I'm sure the horse would find a way to evade that possibility for sure.......
vaquero trainers don't spend months and years training these horses and progressing them to a signal bit like a spade bit just to break the horses skull.....what a waste of time and money......


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

^agreed. Ignorant people are the downfall of the horse industry...


----------



## Speed Racer

Dame Nuit said:


> I'm speaking of this video :
> Vaquero Bridle Horse Sale - YouTube
> 
> Guy pulls his reins at :
> 0'10
> 0'50
> 0'57
> 1'51
> 2'35
> 2'40
> 2'42


You must have watched a different video than I did. What* I* saw was a young horse going _willingly_ and working softly. Whoever put the training on that animal knew what they were doing, and he was happy and relaxed.

There was NO yanking back on any of the bits. Contact? Yes, there was that, but it's part of the communication between horse and rider and there was absolutely _no _abuse or hard hands.

That video was lovely, and showed a well matched and HAPPY horse and rider team.

As far as Parelli, if you find something you like and it works for you and your horses do it, but do NOT denigrate another type of training because_ you_ don't understand it. I find it rather hypocritical of you to scream about people 'not understanding' Parelli and daring to say something about him, and yet you, who obviously don't have a _clue_ about real sublety in horse training, think you have the right to slam another way of training.


----------



## Dame Nuit

Muppetgirl said:


> If yo
> Any good horseman knows at some point during training you're going to have to touch a horses mouth......it's just fact.


So this is it : you put such a bit in your horse's mouth to use it. :twisted:

And here is a fine "dog" for Wanstrom :lol:





Be sure that horse never had something else than a snaffle bit in his mouth...


----------



## nrhareiner

Dame Nuit said:


> Not at all! :lol: I just see that those who say they don't like the method just don't know how it works.
> 
> 
> *Know how it works. Well does not work would be a better term and no thank you. Do not know one proven trainer who would even touch a PP horses or use his methods.*
> 
> No only the vaquero's way to ride a horse, using a bit that could break its skull... There are plenty of traditions to ride a horse, very few of them use such brutal tacks.


This just shows how little you know about bits. The traditional bit used by the Vaqeros is called a spade bit. It is a pre signal bit used on finished bridle horses. Is it not use to train a horse and there is no pulling. The lightest movement of the reins will signal the horse and that along with the riders seat and legs cue the horse to do what is being asked. It is not about the bit but the training. You can not get this level of fenness or lightness in a snaffle. This is why a finished bridle horse is not in one but in a spade bit.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Dame Nuit said:


> You have to be so affraid of horses to said such a silly thing! :shock:


Oh they can jump and follow the guy around?? I've see collies to that at agility shows! Those horse are fine and dandy and pretty in the arena. Get them out, they aren't worth the time to even try and get work done on them. Sorry but if you grew up ranching and making a living out of the saddle, which I'm positive you didnt just because of the way you talk, you would understand. Cant change ignorance, I'm out!


----------



## nrhareiner

Dame Nuit said:


> You have to be so affraid of horses to said such a silly thing! :shock:



You ever ridden a horse in cattle? Try is some time. I am not talking about cattle inside an area who have some idea about being worked by horses. I am talking about go out in an open range and work cattle. WE shall see how well broke your horses is.


----------



## Dame Nuit

nrhareiner said:


> This just shows how little you know about bits. The traditional bit used by the Vaqeros is called a spade bit. It is a pre signal bit used on finished bridle horses. Is it not use to train a horse and there is no pulling. The lightest movement of the reins will signal the horse and that along with the riders seat and legs cue the horse to do what is being asked. It is not about the bit but the training. You can not get this level of fenness or lightness in a snaffle. This is why a finished bridle horse is not in one but in a spade bit.


If you say so...


----------



## Speed Racer

Mexican Charro training is NOT the same as vaquero training. You really are showing how little you actually know.


----------



## nrhareiner

Dame Nuit said:


> So this is it : you put such a bit in your horse's mouth to use it. :twisted:
> 
> And here is a fine "dog" for Wanstrom :lol:
> 
> Liberté à la plage avec Tao - YouTube
> Be sure that horse never had something else than a snaffle bit in his mouth...


Ok now lets see that horse so some real work. Just just some running on the beach. Let see that horse work some cattle. Lets see that horse do some side passing and some rope work and something past just lopping around. That is not hard. Does not take a lot of extra training.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Here's the same guy from the last video I posted. And this horse was trained with vaquero horsemanship. And this isn't a finished horse either, he's still in the two rein also. Cant ride bridle less??


----------



## nrhareiner

Dame Nuit said:


> If you say so...


What speed said. If you do not know the difference they you should either educate yourself or back out now as you are just digging a deeper....


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Dame Nuit said:


> If you say so...


Not even in the same universe.. Way way different. Shows how little you know..


----------



## Dame Nuit

nrhareiner said:


> Ok now lets see that horse so some real work. Just just some running on the beach. Let see that horse work some cattle. Lets see that horse do some side passing and some rope work and something past just lopping around. That is not hard. Does not take a lot of extra training.


Oh yes, I get it : it's not about horses or horsemanship, it's about cattle! 

You don't care about the horse, you just want to get back your cattle in the barn for the night! 

I think I understand better and better : 
- Why in europe we're better at biomecanics, but often riding uneducated horses.
- why your horses look like robots (I understand that's for security) 
- why NH had so often appeared in the areas where vaquero's riding was the norm...


----------



## Muppetgirl

Dame Nuit said:


> So this is it : you put such a bit in your horse's mouth to use it. :twisted:
> 
> And here is a fine "dog" for Wanstrom :lol:
> 
> Liberté à la plage avec Tao - YouTube
> Be sure that horse never had something else than a snaffle bit in his mouth...


And how practical do you think it is for a working cowboy to parade around bridless all day while roping cows and working cattle?? This is why I giggle like Rick Gore (about the only thing Rick Gore and I have in common) when I see people parading such an impractical example of 'horsemanship'......apart from beng able to put on a good show performing maneuvers bridless bareback.....in the REAL WORLD this is not practical.....So your example is.....well just that....


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Dame Nuit said:


> Oh yes, I get it : it's not about horses or horsemanship, it's about cattle!
> 
> You don't care about the horse, you just want to get back your cattle in the barn for the night!
> 
> I think I understand better and better :
> - Why in europe we're better at biomecanics, but often riding uneducated horses.
> - why your horses look like robots (I understand that's for security)
> - why NH had so often appeared in the areas where vaquero's riding was the norm...


NH is very few and far between in my area. And many people that move in to the my area are the ones that bring it in. Do you know anything???? Grazing cattle don't go into a barn at night.. Seriously?! I'm not sure if your just uneducated or ignorant.... It's almost sad that you can tell us all we are horse a abusers for riding bridle horses, although you know nothing!!


----------



## Dame Nuit

Muppetgirl said:


> And how practical ... all day while roping cows and working cattle?? in the REAL WORLD this is not practical.....


In real world, cattle is handled by farmers without the help of any horse. :lol:


----------



## nrhareiner

Dame Nuit said:


> Oh yes, I get it : it's not about horses or horsemanship, it's about cattle!
> 
> You don't care about the horse, you just want to get back your cattle in the barn for the night!
> 
> I think I understand better and better :
> - Why in europe we're better at biomecanics, but often riding uneducated horses.
> - why your horses look like robots (I understand that's for security)
> - why NH had so often appeared in the areas where vaquero's riding was the norm...


Again you seem to be missing the point. The old saying still goes. Want to see who well broke your horse is put them on cattle. Around here cattle are kept in feed lots. No need to round them up. 

However the fact is that if you really want to know how well trained a horse is ask them to do something that requires some real work like working cattle. You will find the holes in your training real fast.

Again you are showing your ignorance about what you are looking at and THINK you know. 

Come ride one of my horses. You will soon learn what it is like to ride a well bred well trained horse. No robot here. That would imply that you have to do nothing in order to ride them. Not so. If you do not know what you are doing you will never get them to move. Neighbor girl found that out a few years ago. She started out riding my stallion. He will pack anyone around. Yet put someone who knows what they are doing and you can go out and do anything with him from reining to cow work to roping. Now same kid on my Dun It mare. She is not a packer. You better know what you are doing and know how to cue her or she will not move. Not one muscles not one inch.


----------



## Dame Nuit

Wanstrom Horses said:


> NH is very few and far between in my area. And many people that move in to the my area are the ones that bring it in. Do you know anything???? Grazing cattle don't go into a barn at night.. Seriously?! I'm not sure if your just uneducated or ignorant.... It's almost sad that you can tell us all we are horse a abusers for riding bridle horses, although you know nothing!!


All I know, I read it in your topic! :lol:


----------



## Speed Racer

Dame Nuit said:


> In real world, cattle is handled by farmers without the help of any horse. :lol:


No, in small provinces where you have limited land, you don't NEED horses to move cattle. When you're talking thousands of acres as well as head of cattle, it's not even comparable to some quaint little French farmer and his small herd. 

Maybe you need to actually travel to the US and see how big of a land mass we occupy. Ranches that run cattle actually have miles upon miles of range, not a few acres. The 'world' isn't just your little provincial corner.


----------



## nrhareiner

Dame Nuit said:


> In real world, cattle is handled by farmers without the help of any horse. :lol:



What real world are you living in? While there are area where cattle are kept in feed lots like dairy farms the vast majority of feeder cattle are free ranged and most large ramotas still to this day use horses to round them up and doctor them and brand them. Not to mention fixing fencing.


----------



## Muppetgirl

Dame Nuit said:


> Oh yes, I get it : it's not about horses or horsemanship, it's about cattle!
> 
> You don't care about the horse, you just want to get back your cattle in the barn for the night!
> 
> I think I understand better and better :
> - Why in europe we're better at biomecanics, but often riding uneducated horses.
> - why your horses look like robots (I understand that's for security)
> - why NH had so often appeared in the areas where vaquero's riding was the norm...


Long before you or anyone else on this board was was born people relied on horses for their survival.....unfortunately for the uneducated like yourself they have now just become big pets to play with..........some folk here choose to ride an obedient well trained horse, I guess that's why you use the word 'robot',......you are failing to see that without a well trained sound horse ranchers wouldn't be able to get their cattle 'back in the barn' as you say, so why on earth do you think a rancher would ride nothing but a good sound horse and not take care of it.....

Your sheltered views are quite laughable.


----------



## Muppetgirl

nrhareiner said:


> What real world are you living in? While there are area where cattle are kept in feed lots like dairy farms the vast majority of feeder cattle are free ranged and most large ramotas still to this day use horses to round them up and doctor them and brand them. Not to mention fixing fencing.


It says she's in France.....it's all fenced pasture.....not big open range like in Canada, US or Australia......
Hobby farming I believe......that's just me being ignorant:lol:


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Dame Nuit said:


> In real world, cattle is handled by farmers without the help of any horse. :lol:


You try rounding up cattle on foot when they are running on 2000 acres.. Let me know how it works for you.. They aren't your gentle barnyards milk jugs...


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Dame Nuit said:


> All I know, I read it in your topic! :lol:


Ummm ok??? Why don't you just admit your wrong and move on... Your the only one here who seems to Not understand anything??? If your such a good horse trainer, where's all your horses?? And how broke are they??


----------



## nrhareiner

Muppetgirl said:


> It says she's in France.....it's all fenced pasture.....not big open range like in Canada, US or Australia......
> Hobby farming I believe......that's just me being ignorant:lol:


Yes that is why I stated she needs to learn more about how we farm here. While there are some ranchers/farmer show use feed lots to keep their cattle in they are more in my area where land is too expensive to graze livestock on. The land is used to grow grain and hay to feed the cattle all year around. Also dairy farmers who do not graze their cows at all. They are not even turned out. 

Yet I know that it is very different out west where cattle are turned out all the time. Most not seen for months at a time. Same with some of the horses.

This is why people like her needs to learn before they talk (type)


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Yes, but I guess since we are all idiots, we better listen to her. Nobody does it like they do it in France! They do it the only right way!! :rofl:


----------



## Dame Nuit

nrhareiner said:


> Want to see who well broke your horse is put them on cattle.


We can't put horse on cattle : farmers won't let us do it! :lol:



nrhareiner said:


> However the fact is that if you really want to know how well trained a horse is ask them to do something that requires some real work* like* working cattle. You will find the holes in your training real fast.


So you finally agree that playing with cattle is not the only "work" a horse may have to do? I'm happy to read it, because I was almost thinking that apart from cattle and vaquero's style, every thing else was peanuts! 



nrhareiner said:


> Come ride one of my horses. You will soon learn what it is like to ride a well bred well trained horse. No robot here. That would imply that you have to do nothing in order to ride them. Not so. If you do not know what you are doing you will never get them to move. Neighbor girl found that out a few years ago. She started out riding my stallion. He will pack anyone around. Yet put someone who knows what they are doing and you can go out and do anything with him from reining to cow work to roping. Now same kid on my Dun It mare. She is not a packer. You better know what you are doing and know how to cue her or she will not move. Not one muscles not one inch.


Maybe if it could be done, I could see that. 
Even if we too have very well trained and very well breed horses and we have them jump over 1.50m obstacle instated of cow work. Or do Haute Ecole and you too could be very surprised while riding them!


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Dame Nuit said:


> We can't put horse on cattle : farmers won't let us do it! :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> So you finally agree that playing with cattle is not the only "work" a horse may have to do? I'm happy to read it, because I was almost thinking that apart from cattle and vaquero's style, every thing else was peanuts!
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe if it could be done, I could see that.
> Even if we too have very well trained and very well breed horses and we have them jump over 1.50m obstacle instated of cow work. Or do Haute Ecole and you too could be very surprised while riding them!


Too bad the jump doesn't have a heartbeat and will move out away from you in a instant. The concept your not getting is with cattle work, you are controlling two completely different animals. And if you Use dogs like we do, that's three completely different critters all with a mind of your own. That's real work, not trotting around an arena and jumping obstacles. That just really doesn't impress me in the least..


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## Wanstrom Horses

When you HAVE to rely off your horses to make a living, it's a whole different ballpark...


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## nrhareiner

Dame Nuit said:


> We can't put horse on cattle : farmers won't let us do it! :lol:
> 
> *Go find a reined cow horse show over there. I know they exist. *
> 
> 
> So you finally agree that playing with cattle is not the only "work" a horse may have to do? I'm happy to read it, because I was almost thinking that apart from cattle and vaquero's style, every thing else was peanuts!
> 
> *Again you are missing the point. Too bad you can not see who things are past your own back door. *
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe if it could be done, I could see that.
> Even if we too have very well trained and very well breed horses and we have them jump over 1.50m obstacle instated of cow work. Or do Haute Ecole and you too could be very surprised while riding them!


I am not talking about your running one of my horses through a reining pattern or working cattle. I am talking about just riding. Just seeing how light and responsive they are. Something that EVERY horse and EVERY rider should strive for. However I have found that very few actually get there.


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## Muppetgirl

nrhareiner said:


> I am not talking about your running one of my horses through a reining pattern or working cattle. I am talking about just riding. Just seeing how light and responsive they are. Something that EVERY horse and EVERY rider should strive for. However I have found that very few actually get there.


I'm working on it! :lol: I've been fortunate enough to have been given the opportunity to ride a few world class reining horses (so glad I stumbled into that job....I literally did!) .....a whole lot of horse underneath you, that's for sure! 
I wish everyone would have the opportunity to ride a really well trained level headed reining/reined cowhorse........I think it should be mandatory!
Oh yes,....I've had the moment of 'WTH? Horse won't move!'


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## Dame Nuit

nrhareiner said:


> I am talking about just riding. Just seeing how light and responsive they are. Something that EVERY horse and EVERY rider should strive for.


So here we go again... We sure know how to get that without your awfull bridle! Having light and responisve horse when ridden is the begging of everything, this is nothing special you can find only in your kind of horsemanship!


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## nrhareiner

Dame Nuit said:


> So here we go again... We sure know how to get that without your awfull bridle! Having light and responisve horse when ridden is the begging of everything, this is nothing special you can find only in your kind of horsemanship!



Again the horse is not started in a bridle like that. Again you are showing your ignorance as to how these horses are trained. 

As for responsive and light. I have little doubt that you think your horses are and they might be. However I have yet to see even a high level dressage horse as light as a finished bridle horse. Yes they are light but still require some contact. 

Again I do not think you fully under stand what a truly finished western bridle horse is. 

To my last point. Until you actually ride a truly high level finished bridle horse you do not know. You may think you know but you do not.

Again you are also showing your ignorance as to how these bits work. So go back and actually learn. These bits like the spade bit and the correction bits are pre signal bits. They are not used to cause pain. It is not about the bit but the hands on the other side of the reins.


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## Eeyottiesmypony

Personally i love the Parelli 7 games and groundwork. It has helped me tremendously with my geldings, an aggressive mare, and I have seen it help a friend of mine who was ready to sell her horse because of a dangerous rearing problem. The main reason I started with the natural horsemanship was because of the dead head robots most trainers ride. I'm sorry but I love my horse for being a horse not a mindless slave. I will admit Parelli throws A LOT of "buy this" in with his training, and I do like using other as well John Lyons, Craig Cameron, Monty Roberts etc. just because I do like certain aspects of each of their training.


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## Speed Racer

Dame Nuit said:


> So you really think vaquero's style is the ONLY way to have a responsive horse? :shock:


I don't believe _anyone_ said that. Go back and check the thread. There are different training methods for different disciplines. I don't understand why you find that a difficult concept to grasp.

_You're_ the only one screaming about 'vaquero style' as being horrible and abusive, and refusing to understand that it's a way of training horses for working cattle.

Just because the French don't work cattle with horses doesn't mean squat to cattlemen whose livelihoods depend on their cattle, and who need a responsive, educated, and _willing_ partner.


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## nrhareiner

Muppetgirl said:


> I'm working on it! :lol: I've been fortunate enough to have been given the opportunity to ride a few world class reining horses (so glad I stumbled into that job....I literally did!) .....a whole lot of horse underneath you, that's for sure!
> I wish everyone would have the opportunity to ride a really well trained level headed reining/reined cowhorse........I think it should be mandatory!
> Oh yes,....I've had the moment of 'WTH? Horse won't move!'


It really is something different isn't it? Most people go through their whole lives never actually riding a well bred well trained horse that knows what you want with the slightest of movement. I remember my first reiner. I really thaght he was a great horse and very responsive and good. Until I got my Dun It mare and used a very very good trainer with her. Oh boy. What a world of differenace. Charlie was very well bred. G-Son of Doc O'Lena top and Peppy San/Gay Bar King bottom. But nothing like riding a daughter of Dun It out of a very very proven dam. 

Keep up working towards it. It is well worth it.


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## jaydee

Dame Nuit said:


> So you really think vaquero's style is the ONLY way to have a responsive horse? :shock:


 I think you need to look outside of the box a bit
I agree with what *nhareiner* and *wanstrom* are saying because I understand what they are trying to get at - and I'm not even a western rider. PP does not own the rights to riding with light hands in any discipline
I have no problem with anything that promotes good horsemanship - but it doesnt belong to any one person or any one section of the sport
Look at all the 'words' - desensitise, sacking out, imprinting, opposition reflex, pressure and release. They get trotted out as if they are some new magical inventions that no one did before when in fact they are centuries old and practiced by horsemen worldwide as 'matter of course' day to day handling and education - they just didnt give them fancy names to make them sound impressive - but doing that sells books and videos because average Joe thinks he is learning something new and exclusive


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## Dame Nuit

nrhareiner said:


> As for responsive and light. I have little doubt that you think your horses are and they might be. However I have yet to see even a high level dressage horse as light as a finished bridle horse. Yes they are light but still require some contact.
> 
> Again I do not think you fully under stand what a truly finished western bridle horse is.


I don't understand how a finished western bridle horse is the same way you don't understand a finished dressage horse is. 
When you say "but they still require some contact" that mean you have no idea of how many informations you can get in you hands when the horse agree with a soft contact. Contact is not required by the horse, but by the rider. 
It's a completly different way to do things. You don't want to understand how I can't k now the way you do. But you don't know more about the way we do. 
The feed back from the horse to the riders hand is a great help for lightness and precision, and couldn't be done with a harsh bit. And you can't jump over very big obstacle without mastering that part of riding precision.


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## Muppetgirl

nrhareiner said:


> It really is something different isn't it? Most people go through their whole lives never actually riding a well bred well trained horse that knows what you want with the slightest of movement. I remember my first reiner. I really thaght he was a great horse and very responsive and good. Until I got my Dun It mare and used a very very good trainer with her. Oh boy. What a world of differenace. Charlie was very well bred. G-Son of Doc O'Lena top and Peppy San/Gay Bar King bottom. But nothing like riding a daughter of Dun It out of a very very proven dam.
> 
> Keep up working towards it. It is well worth it.


Two weeks ago I let one of the young girls ride my reining horse, she rides a reining horse but has decided to turn it in to a jumper, shes only ever ridden English......she was complaining that her horse was heavy on her hands on on the forehand all the time.....literally yanking her forward in the saddle.......I put her on my horse, told her to drop the reins, look to the right, step into the right stirrup and put her outside leg on.....'woooooo hoooooo' and giggling like Rick Gore is all you could here in the arena when she did her first ever spin.....I was giving her an example of how light and responsive a horse SHOULD be, so that she knew what it would feel like to NOT be working harder than the horse.....gotta say it was the highlight of my day seeing her grin like that:lol:


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## Wanstrom Horses

Dame Nuit said:


> So you really think vaquero's style is the ONLY way to have a responsive horse? :shock:


You know whats sad? Is that you don't realize that every training method, whether is be dressage, to NH, to the modern vaquero horsemanship, is it all originated with the ancient form of making a bridle horse, brought over to the US from the Spainards. Even in Europe, all the training was based off of people making responsive, working horses. Trace it back and do your homework, you will find that every method is branched off from the old bridle horse art. In some form or another. The true Bridle horse is a piece of history and a method that has lasted for thousands of years, and hundreds of years in the US. If you would at least try and educate yourself at all, you would know this. I doubt this NH fad will last hundreds or even thousands of years..


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## Wanstrom Horses

Ok, we know your obssesed with the horses jumping.. Woopty-doo.. Its not a big thing to me and not even really that impessive. If dressage horses don't need contact to perform, why is every single big-name dressage horse out there pushing on the bit and has foam running down it's front end?? And there isn't a such thing as a harsh bit. They are only more advanced for advanced horsemen.. No bit is harsh if used in the right hands.


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## Dame Nuit

Wanstrom Horses said:


> You know whats sad? Is that you don't realize that every training method, whether is be dressage, to NH, to the modern vaquero horsemanship, is it all originated with the ancient form of making a bridle horse, brought over to the US from the Spainards. Even in Europe, all the training was based off of people making responsive, working horses. Trace it back and do your homework, you will find that every method is branched off from the old bridle horse art. In some form or another. The true Bridle horse is a piece of history and a method that has lasted for thousands of years, and hundreds of years in the US. If you would at least try and educate yourself at all, you would know this. I doubt this NH fad will last hundreds or even thousands of years..


So you too have read Kikkuli and Xenophon?


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## Speed Racer

Dame Nuit said:


> Contact is not required by the horse, but by the rider.


Again, you're showing just how much you _don't_ know.

Contact is very much required by_ both _partners in order to communicate effectively. The majority of cues come from the seat and legs, but the finer, more subtle ones come from rein/bit contact. 

There's a reason a finely tuned dressage or working cattle horse looks like they're doing things on their own; it's because the cues are so very subtle from their rider, and are coming from that_ necessary_ contact.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Dame Nuit said:


> So you too have read Kikkuli and Xenophon?


No, I've read history books.. I've learned things from bridle horseman that learned from their fathers that learned from their fathers. I think YOU are the one at needs to read more..


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## nrhareiner

Dame Nuit said:


> I don't understand how a finished western bridle horse is the same way you don't understand a finished dressage horse is.
> 
> *Oh I do. I have quite a few friends who have Dressage horses. Yet most of them went me to help them get their horses lighter. Wonder why that is? I am not talking low level cheap horses wither. I am talking well bred level 3 horses who score in the high 60 and even into the 70 in their tests.*
> 
> When you say "but they still require some contact" that mean you have no idea of how many informations you can get in you hands when the horse agree with a soft contact. Contact is not required by the horse, but by the rider.
> 
> *Yet you seem to think that is the ONLY way to get that information. It is not. You also seem to think that my horses will not take contact. They will. I just do not need it to get the job done.*
> 
> It's a completly different way to do things. You don't want to understand how I can't k now the way you do. But you don't know more about the way we do.
> The feed back from the horse to the riders hand is a great help for lightness and precision, and couldn't be done with a harsh bit. And you can't jump over very big obstacle without mastering that part of riding precision.



The fact is that is just what Dressage wants in their riding. Does not mean that it is the only way to get that information. 

As for jumping things. Ya not a big deal. Heck seen little kids to it. Seem cowboys jump large deep creaks. You know the things that do not give way and if you miss you and your horse die. All in a western saddle and a shanked bit.


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## Dame Nuit

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Ok, we know your obssesed with the horses jumping.. Woopty-doo.. Its not a big thing to me and not even really that impessive. If dressage horses don't need contact to perform, why is every single big-name dressage horse out there pushing on the bit and has foam running down it's front end?? And there isn't a such thing as a harsh bit. They are only more advanced for advanced horsemen.. No bit is harsh if used in the right hands.


Because you know nothing about it, and because you don't want to know what's going on next door... And you are the one to say I'm not open minded?


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## nrhareiner

Muppetgirl said:


> Two weeks ago I let one of the young girls ride my reining horse, she rides a reining horse but has decided to turn it in to a jumper, shes only ever ridden English......she was complaining that her horse was heavy on her hands on on the forehand all the time.....literally yanking her forward in the saddle.......I put her on my horse, told her to drop the reins, look to the right, step into the right stirrup and put her outside leg on.....'woooooo hoooooo' and giggling like Rick Gore is all you could here in the arena when she did her first ever spin.....I was giving her an example of how light and responsive a horse SHOULD be, so that she knew what it would feel like to NOT be working harder than the horse.....gotta say it was the highlight of my day seeing her grin like that:lol:



Ya it is always fun to watch the first time a person rides a horse like that. Most of the time they never go back.


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## Dame Nuit

nrhareiner said:


> As for jumping things. Ya not a big deal. Heck seen little kids to it. Seem cowboys jump large deep creaks.


Oh yes, and your children do their first cutting in front of a bull, not with a baby calf? 
Every body can jump over 1.00m without being good nor with any precision.


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## Muppetgirl

nrhareiner said:


> Ya it is always fun to watch the first time a person rides a horse like that. Most of the time they never go back.


Well I think she's having second thoughts about turning her reiner into a jumper....it was too bad I didn't ask her to slide my horse, didn't want to scare her!!! Dashboard!!!


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## Dame Nuit

Wanstrom Horses said:


> No, I've read history books.. I've learned things from bridle horseman that learned from their fathers that learned from their fathers. I think YOU are the one at needs to read more..


So you have seen the man who have seen the man who have seen the man who have seen the man who have seen the man who have seen the bear. 
And know, you know what a bear looks like...


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## Wanstrom Horses

Dame Nuit said:


> Because you know nothing about it, and because you don't want to know what's going on next door... And you are the one to say I'm not open minded?


Yes, you lunge horses over jumps and gradually increase the height and decrease the amount of cues you are giving them. Its fairly simple stuff. Its NOT impressive to me, and it never will be. I'm not closed minded, I have tried NH and never found anything I really liked. Now, people come up to me at ranch rodeos and saleyards and ask me and my husband to ride their horses. We have to turn people down because we have too many colts to ride. If you ask me thats a good reputation. And I have a program that works for me very very well. When you train horses for outside people, and have a good reputation in doing so, you might have room to talk. Hell, even if you would educate yourself a little more, you may even have a little more room to talk.. Or maybe even think before you type??


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## nrhareiner

Muppetgirl said:


> Well I think she's having second thoughts about turning her reiner into a jumper....it was too bad I didn't ask her to slide my horse, didn't want to scare her!!! Dashboard!!!


Ya baby steps. I know when I stepped up from Charlie to Cassie it was a world of difference. Heck Gracie stops like her daddy. Nothing like thinking your horse just dropped out from under you.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Dame Nuit said:


> Oh yes, and your children do their first cutting in front of a bull, not with a baby calf?
> Every body can jump over 1.00m without being good nor with any precision.


You don't even know what you are talking about! It's quite sad.... Calves are actually really hard to cut out because they are so little and very quick. You are only making yourself look like a nim-whit...


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## jaydee

So what is the sudden need or relevance for PP in the world of dressage or showjumping - are he and the delightful Mrs P somehow going to add something to these disciplines that's been ignored for centuries?
Are they going to put on a show for top riders in these fields and the entire audience is going to shout 'WOW' these guys are so amazing, how have we managed without them for so long? I doubt it.
If I want dressage lessons I go to someone who is skilled and experienced not someone who's just done a short course, same goes for jumping
And showjumpers have been using some ferocious looking bits for a long time - its what gives them the ability to control a highly charged horse in a tight situation - but because they have light hands and know how to use those bits they are able to allow the horse to move forwards when it counts to get over these huge fences and spreads.


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## nrhareiner

jaydee said:


> So what is the sudden need or relevance for PP in the world of dressage or showjumping - are he and the delightful Mrs P somehow going to add something to these disciplines that's been ignored for centuries?
> Are they going to put on a show for top riders in these fields and the entire audience is going to shout 'WOW' these guys are so amazing, how have we managed without them for so long? I doubt it.
> If I want dressage lessons I go to someone who is skilled and experienced not someone who's just done a short course, same goes for jumping
> And showjumpers have been using some ferocious looking bits for a long time - its what gives them the ability to control a highly charged horse in a tight situation - but because they have light hands and know how to use those bits they are able to allow the horse to move forwards when it counts to get over these huge fences and spreads.


Very well said. If you want to learn something go to a live person who actually is proven in that area.

Also I agree. There is no such thing as a harsh bit. Only Harsh hands.


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## Dame Nuit

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Yes, you lunge horses over jumps and gradually increase the height and decrease the amount of cues you are giving them. Its fairly simple stuff. Its NOT impressive to me, and it never will be. I'm not closed minded, I have tried NH and never found anything I really liked. Now, people come up to me at ranch rodeos and saleyards and ask me and my husband to ride their horses. We have to turn people down because we have too many colts to ride. If you ask me thats a good reputation. And I have a program that works for me very very well. When you train horses for outside people, and have a good reputation in doing so, you might have room to talk. Hell, even if you would educate yourself a little more, you may even have a little more room to talk.. Or maybe even think before you type??


Good for you if you make your living. 
But surely you able to do one thing, and just one thing (and certainly not have your horses jump over something big  ).


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## nrhareiner

Again not a big deal. Most show jumpers I know never jump anything as large as some of the cowboys I have seen jump natural obstetrical out on the open range.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Dame Nuit said:


> Good for you if you make your living.
> But surely you able to do one thing, and just one thing (and certainly not have your horses jump over something big  ).


One thing? My finished horses will spin a post hole in the ground with the touch of a knee, they will slide to a stop if I pick up my reins and say whoa, they rate a calf, and when I get it roped, I'll step off and doctor and they stand there patiently, and I can click at them and they will back up to keep a rope tight, or they will step forward so I can get some slack, and I'm not even touching the horse! If you ask me, that's something. Along will all the other work I can get done with them... They will effortlessly change leads, I can rope a big bull and drag them into a trailer if I have too.


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## Speed Racer

NRH, your horses are so intelligent they're doing _obstetrical_ courses while cutting cattle? Dayum! :wink:

I just have regular horses. None of mine will ever be doctors! 

(Sorry, had to do it. That typo is hilarious.)


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## nrhareiner

Wanstrom Horses said:


> One thing? My finished horses will spin a post hole in the ground with the touch of a knee, they will slide to a stop if I pick up my reins and say whoa, they rate a calf, and when I get it roped, I'll step off and doctor and they stand there patiently, and I can click at them and they will back up to keep a rope tight, or they will step forward so I can get some slack, and I'm not even touching the horse! If you ask me, that's something. Along will all the other work I can get done with them... They will effortlessly change leads, I can rope a big bull and drag them into a trailer if I have too.


People who have never had to do this with a horse just have no clue. Getting a horse to even want to work a cow is something that is bred into them. Again something people know very little about.


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## nrhareiner

Speed Racer said:


> NRH, your horses are so intelligent they're doing _obstetrical_ courses while cutting cattle? Dayum! :wink:
> 
> I just have regular horses. None of mine will ever be doctors!


Ok not sure what you are talking about. 

If you are talking about a reined cow horse class? Sure. Obstetrical coarse with cattle.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Sadly, that is very very true. I guess I'm very fortunate just being able to have cattle to work horses on..


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## Speed Racer

No dear, obstetrics is what a gynecologist does. I think you meant _obstacle_. :wink:

Just poking a little fun because I found the typo amusing.


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## nrhareiner

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Sadly, that is very very true. I guess I'm very fortunate just being able to have cattle to work horses on..



Ya I wish I had more access to cattle. The cost of keeping a large herd of cattle around here is too high. I would have to change them out ever few months. So I use others cattle and take advantage to reined cow horses shows and practices to work the horses on when needed. Best part is that my horses are so well trained that is it not hard to go and show a reined cow horse class with very little cattle practice.


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## nrhareiner

Speed Racer said:


> No dear, obstetrics is what a gynecologist does. I think you meant _obstacle_. :wink:
> 
> Just poking a little fun because I found the typo amusing.



Oh missed that. Hate auto correct. 

Well now that I think about it does doing AI work count??


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## Wanstrom Horses

nrhareiner said:


> Ya I wish I had more access to cattle. The cost of keeping a large herd of cattle around here is too high. I would have to change them out ever few months. So I use others cattle and take advantage to reined cow horses shows and practices to work the horses on when needed. Best part is that my horses are so well trained that is it not hard to go and show a reined cow horse class with very little cattle practice.


I gotta work with the stinky critters every day.. We have been night calving right now. I cuss them almost every second of the day, but I wouldn't have it any other way.. Horses, cattle and dogs go together and that won't ever change


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## Speed Racer

nrhareiner said:


> Oh missed that. Hate auto correct.
> 
> Well now that I think about it does doing AI work count??



Yeah, I figured it was auto-correct that gave us the word, not you. :wink:

AI _definitely_ counts! So yeah, your horses are doing obstetrical work!


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## Muppetgirl

Speed Racer said:


> No dear, obstetrics is what a gynecologist does. I think you meant _obstacle_. :wink:
> 
> Just poking a little fun because I found the typo amusing.


Obstetric work with cattle is not as much fun.......I have short arms:-(


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## themacpack

Muppetgirl said:


> Obstetric work with cattle is not as much fun.......I have short arms:-(


You are more suited to sheep :wink:


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## nrhareiner

Speed Racer said:


> Yeah, I figured it was auto-correct that gave us the word, not you. :wink:
> 
> AI _definitely_ counts! So yeah, your horses are doing obstetrical work!


I think if I let her Cassie would love to sick a hoof up a cows rear. LOL


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## Pegasus1

nrhareiner said:


> No he did not. NH and that term has been around a lot longer then PP. While he MAY have made the term more main stream he did not come up with it. NH has been around for more years then any of the trainers want you to think.


Please supply your references for this statement. At least I researched mine and provided references.


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## bsms

My horse has never delivered a baby, but she's "had a cow" quite a few times...

I can admire jumpers, dressage riders and reiners without ever wanting to become one. And I'll give Pat Parelli this much - he doesn't object to someone using a leveraged bit, or believe that all riding starts and ends with a snaffle. Or bitless...

I don't want to work cattle on foot. Here is where an old friends runs his cattle:










Actually, he runs them just south of here. Have fun working cattle on foot in places like this! He did used to drive sheep thru this canyon, before the Feds told him he couldn't.

My trail riding is so trivial that most trail riders would laugh themselves silly at me calling it trail riding. There are folks who ride in places that would scare me worse than a 6' oxer, providing the horse knew how to jump a 6' oxer. See the trail riding section for some pictures. I had to buy some yellow underwear just so I could read some of the threads without anyone finding out what happened when I did!

The scariest riding I've done so far was having Mia galloping joyfully, the snaffle bit unfelt against her molars as my clumsy mare raced toward a blind turn I knew was ahead. Stopping her before she could send both of us rolling thru the cactus was more excitement than my 54 year old heart needed. Yes, it is a training hole, and yes, for the umpteenth time in 4 years, Mia and I are working on plugging a hole. 

I can admire a lot of styles of riding. As I get older and more experienced, I'm less & less likely to denigrate others for choosing different from me.


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## bsms

"Some people say that I am a “natural horseman” because I practice certain philosophies and techniques. Others say I’m not “natural” (oddly enough) for the very same reasons. If you ask me, I say that it seems pretty dang hard, if not impossible, to be - or not be - something that doesn’t even exist in the first place.

We’ll get back to that in a minute, but first, a quick history lesson. One might be surprised to learn that the term “natural horsemanship” didn’t really even exist prior to around 1985. You see, it was about that time that a well-known horse trainer coined the phrase and began using it as a marketing tool for a horse-training program he and his wife had developed. The term resonated with a lot of folks and whether people followed the program or not, they began using it as a way to define the methods and techniques they used to work with their horse. “I use natural horsemanship to train my horses.” Over the years the term has even morphed into what a lot of people might refer to as an actual equine discipline, like dressage, or reining or jumping. “I do natural horsemanship.”

Now, before going any further, it might be helpful to understand what the definition of the word natural, is. The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines the word as: being in accordance with or determined by nature. Dictionary.com defines the word as - existing in or formed by nature (opposed to artificial ): a natural bridge. So it seems to me that, in order for horsemanship to be truly natural, it must somehow match up with at least one of these, or at the very least, a similar definition. The problem is…nothing we do with horses does!"

Mark Rashid Horse Training - Archived Blogs


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## QHriderKE

Wanstrom Horses said:


> You don't even know what you are talking about! It's quite sad.... Calves are actually really hard to cut out because they are so little and very quick. You are only making yourself look like a nim-whit...


Sorting calves is just the worst. The best horse I ever had for it was a little welsh/QH cross gelding  He was so snappy!


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## themacpack

Pegasus1 said:


> Please supply your references for this statement. At least I researched mine and provided references.


Since you're so good at research, why not whip up some facts to disprove the statement.


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## Northern

Re: the label, NH, I'm not going to spend the time finding "the horse's mouth" online, but I know for sure, because I've come across the story more than once, & Pat & Linda agree on how it came to be: It was Linda who coined the term! They were trying to think of a term, & LINDA said, "How about natural horsemanship?"


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## Speed Racer

Not so. The earliest I ever saw the term was _long _before Linda came into the picture when Pat was a one man show, and used the term Natural Horse.Man.Ship, with the periods between the words.

As far as who coined it first, does it really matter? It's certainly not a copyrighted term, so it's kind of moot who first uttered it.


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## NBEventer

Dame Nuit said:


> Oh yes, and your children do their first cutting in front of a bull, not with a baby calf?
> Every body can jump over 1.00m without being good nor with any precision.


I can't make it past this comment. Mind you there have been about a thousand other comments you have made Dame that made me want to jump in. So here I am.

I am an English rider. I have owned an important grand prix jumper(and thats not a brag because I got a heck of a deal on him for a few different reasons). I have schooled just under 2 meters. Shown 1.60. 

I have ridden grand prix dressage horses, I have only schooled up to 4th level though.

I have competed 3 Day Eventing up to Intermediate level.

Guess what? There is NO comparing a well bred and highly trained English horse to a working cow horse or reiner. I have done barrel racing, reining and cutting. I have never done any at a competitive level but i've hopped on friends horses and taken them for a spin. 

A highly trained English horse can do lots. Heck my mare can go without a bridle as she is trained purely out of seat. I can think what I want and she does it. But its not the same as a ranch horse.

You need to pull your head out of your behind and realize that you can't compare. I have a lot of respect for these people who make their living off their ranch horses and livestock. These horses will jump anything you ask them to jump, run through anything you ask them to run through. These horses don't spook when they see a draft horse team hitched up. They don't lose their head when they hear a mule or see a cow. These horses are bred and trained to do whatever you pointed them at without question. 

Yes English horses are trained to do as told, but they don't have the same response as a well bred and well trained ranch horse. And don't say its because I have never ridden a true jumper or dressage horse, because I have. I have worked with big name riders who bring imports and I have ridden their horses and the training they have is unbelievable, but its not the same.


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## Muppetgirl

Someone 😜 shared this with me the other day, a vast vast difference:


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## NBEventer

Muppetgirl said:


> Someone 😜 shared this with me the other day, a vast vast difference:
> 
> Olena Oak and Ron Emmons.mov - YouTube


If I asked my little jumper bred mare to do that she would have a serious melt down and then some :shock:


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## nrhareiner

Muppetgirl said:


> Someone 😜 shared this with me the other day, a vast vast difference:
> 
> Olena Oak and Ron Emmons.mov - YouTube



Did this with my mare never been trained on cattle and in her first reined cow horse show she won the open and int open bridle. Ended up in the top 5 in the NE region that year in the Int Open and top 10 in the Open. The next year finished in the top 5 in both open and Int open bridle with no extra training.


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## Muppetgirl

The best part was the beautiful slide and swing he did on that cow!!!! Hmmmm need one!!!!!!


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## NBEventer

nrhareiner said:


> Did this with my mare never been trained on cattle and in her first reined cow horse show she won the open and int open bridle. Ended up in the top 5 in the NE region that year in the Int Open and top 10 in the Open. The next year finished in the top 5 in both open and Int open bridle with no extra training.


Yea well, I thought about trying it for a few seconds while sitting here at home. Bratty mare tossed me into the rafters and high tailed it out of the ring leaving a huge hole in the wall.

Does that win me the flying dismount division? :lol:


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## nrhareiner

Ha flying dismount division is just as good as the cow in the saddle division.


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## Pegasus1

themacpack said:


> Since you're so good at research, why not whip up some facts to disprove the statement.


Don't need to, others seem to have done it for me and found I was probably correct with the reference I gave. :lol:


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## nrhareiner

Well lets see. I remember hearing the term back in the late 70's early 80's. So I know it has been around that long. While PP may have started to use it in his show the tern has been around long before that. Just b/c you have not heard any one use it does not mean it was not being used.


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## Northern

Speed Racer said:


> Not so. The earliest I ever saw the term was _long _before Linda came into the picture when Pat was a one man show, and used the term Natural Horse.Man.Ship, with the periods between the words.
> 
> As far as who coined it first, does it really matter? It's certainly not a copyrighted term, so it's kind of moot who first uttered it.


Hmm, I recall that Pat's book, which was BL (before Linda ), right? had the periods dividing the word hms, & I think he did use "Natural" in connection with that (I no longer have it, or I'd check). Well, then, I dunno, because the Linda story is what P & L tell. :think:

And at this point, I no longer care!:thumbsup:


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## NBEventer

nrhareiner said:


> Well lets see. I remember hearing the term back in the late 70's early 80's. So I know it has been around that long. While PP may have started to use it in his show the tern has been around long before that. Just b/c you have not heard any one use it does not mean it was not being used.


I remember hearing about a lot of NH in the early 90's. I honestly never heard much of Parelli until the early 2000's... if I remember correctly Monty Roberts was big before Parelli wasn't he?


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## nrhareiner

NBEventer said:


> I remember hearing about a lot of NH in the early 90's. I honestly never heard much of Parelli until the early 2000's... if I remember correctly Monty Roberts was big before Parelli wasn't he?


Ya if I remember the time line he was.


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## NBEventer

nrhareiner said:


> Ya if I remember the time line he was.


I'm pretty sure he was. Because he was the "original" Horse Whisperer... Natural Horsemanship was huge right around when the book The Horse Whisperer became big, then even more hype when the movie came out. All of that was long before Parelli.


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## nrhareiner

Ya it was. It was some time after that when you started to hear about PP and some of the others.


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## Muppetgirl

Well seen as being green is all the rage now, I'm going to coin the term Eco-Horsemanship......the tack will be recyclable, horses will eat methane reducing feed, shavings in stalls will be made from recycled shaving from other stalls.....wow it will be a hit because it makes people feel good:lol:


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## NBEventer

Muppetgirl said:


> Well seen as being green is all the rage now, I'm going to coin the term Eco-Horsemanship......the tack will be recyclable, horses will eat methane reducing feed, shavings in stalls will be made from recycled shaving from other stalls.....wow it will be a hit because it makes people feel good:lol:


I wanna get in on this with you. I wonder if we can even somehow collect the gas from horses to fuel the tractors :think:


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## Muppetgirl

NBEventer said:


> I wanna get in on this with you. I wonder if we can even somehow collect the gas from horses to fuel the tractors :think:


No, we'd use drafts to harrow and cart hay, we'd be so fanatical we'd have a cult like following!:lol:


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## Northern

*There's another point to consider in there*

The confusion over how the term NH got coined & who coined it decides me to add another issue to ponder, for those considering entering PNH:

One can see from my list, that smoke & mirrors around hms, husbandry, & ethical treatment of students (pay more $, we might not answer your hms questions, be kool-aid loyal no matter what, etc.) have been issues for some students. So, although it's less serious than what impacts a student's happy progress in horsemanship, there's the issue of the tendency to exaggerate, fib, cover up, regarding "silly stuff" - incidental factoids. For example, Linda has always said that her horse, Remmer, is a Dutch Warmblood. Well, he's only half DW. That's like saying that President Obama is a white man. Also, Linda's story is that Remmer's former owner told her, "Remmer is trying to kill me!" & it's untrue: proof of this can be found on a thread on "It's About the Horse" forum, with Rem's former owner providing the facts & video of Remmer & her participating in a class, with Rem behaving like a lamb, at age 3. What happened the first time Linda saw him was that he went right-brain (fearful). Fearful & Killer are horses of different colors.

Some people are uncomfortable with such manipulations, others have no problem shrugging them off. It's important to know yourself, here.


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## bsms

Early "Horse Whisperers":

"Daniel Sullivan (died 1810) from Mallow, Co. Cork, Ireland, was an Irish horse trainer, who specialised in rehabilitation of horses which were unresponsive to traditional methods. A large portion of his work took place in England.

Not very much is known about him, since he was secretive about his actual methods. To the people who were able to watch him at work, he appeared to frequently stand so close to the horse that they assumed he was whispering to it. For that reason he became known as the "horse whisperer."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_"Horse-Whisperer"_Sullivan

"There was a man from Groveport, Ohio called John Solomon Rarey, who tamed his first horse at the age of twelve. Word of his gift spread and in 1858 he was summoned to Windsor Castle in England to calm a horse of Queen Victoria. The queen and her entourage watched astonished as Rarey put his hands on the animal and laid it down on the ground before them. Then he lay down beside it and rested his head on its hooves. The queen chuckled with delight and gave Rarey a hundred dollars. He was a modest, quiet man, but now he was famous and the press wanted more. The call went out to find the most ferocious horse in all England.

It was duly found.

He was a stallion by the name of Cruiser, once the fastest racehorse in the land. Now though, according to the account Annie read, he was a "fiend incarnate" and wore an eight-pound iron muzzle to stop him killing too many stableboys. His owners only kept him alive because they wanted to breed from him and to make him safe enough to do this, they planned to blind him.

Against all advice, Rarey let himself into the stable where no one else dared venture and shut the door. He emerged three hours later leading Cruiser, without his muzzle and gentle as a lamb. The owners were so impressed they gave him the horse. Rarey brought him back to Ohio, where Cruiser died on July 6, 1875, outliving his new master by a full nine years."

John Solomon Rarey, the Original Horse Whisperer

Somehow, I doubt anyone was the "Original Horse Whisperer", or the first "natural" horseman.


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## COWCHICK77

So...uh...I missed a lot today....



Dame Nuit said:


> I just feel sorry for the horse when I see What he has in his mouth and the guy pulling the rein.
> He sure to the job, or he will have his skull broken by the bit. :?





Dame Nuit said:


> What you saw was not horse mouth gaping, but horse chewing. What we want to have the horse do. Because when a horse is chewing, he has his whole back relaxed and so he has a better locomotion.
> I'm affraid you're not able ta do the same thing with your vaquero horses.
> And I'm affraid, the vaquero's way is not the only way to ride a horse.
> 
> Open your window! The world is so wade! You have to discover it! :lol:





Dame Nuit said:


> Not at all! :lol: I just see that those who say they don't like the method just don't know how it works.
> 
> 
> No only the vaquero's way to ride a horse, using a bit that could break its skull... There are plenty of traditions to ride a horse, very few of them use such brutal tacks.





Dame Nuit said:


> Oh yes, I get it : it's not about horses or horsemanship, it's about cattle!
> 
> You don't care about the horse, you just want to get back your cattle in the barn for the night!
> 
> I think I understand better and better :
> - Why in europe we're better at biomecanics, but often riding uneducated horses.
> - why your horses look like robots (I understand that's for security)
> - why NH had so often appeared in the areas where vaquero's riding was the norm...





Dame Nuit said:


> In real world, cattle is handled by farmers without the help of any horse. :lol:





Dame Nuit said:


> So here we go again... We sure know how to get that without your awfull bridle! Having light and responisve horse when ridden is the begging of everything, this is nothing special you can find only in your kind of horsemanship!





Dame Nuit said:


> I don't understand how a finished western bridle horse is the same way you don't understand a finished dressage horse is.
> When you say "but they still require some contact" that mean you have no idea of how many informations you can get in you hands when the horse agree with a soft contact. Contact is not required by the horse, but by the rider.
> It's a completly different way to do things. You don't want to understand how I can't k now the way you do. But you don't know more about the way we do.
> The feed back from the horse to the riders hand is a great help for lightness and precision, and couldn't be done with a harsh bit. And you can't jump over very big obstacle without mastering that part of riding precision.





Dame Nuit said:


> Oh yes, and your children do their first cutting in front of a bull, not with a baby calf?
> Every body can jump over 1.00m without being good nor with any precision.


This is all I can manage right now....


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## Muppetgirl

^^^^^Oh gee I wish there were more than one like button!!


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## Northern

bsms said:


> Early "Horse Whisperers":
> 
> "Daniel Sullivan (died 1810) from Mallow, Co. Cork, Ireland, was an Irish horse trainer, who specialised in rehabilitation of horses which were unresponsive to traditional methods. A large portion of his work took place in England..


Wow, he _could_ be a relative of mine, since my mother was 100% Irish, maiden name Sullivan! :mrgreen: No _wonder_ I'm so good with horses! :mrgreen:


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## Speed Racer

Actually, the person the book and movie were referring to was Buck Brannaman, NOT Monty Roberts. Buck was even a consultant on the movie, and they used one of his personal horses for a scene that the stunt horse kept getting wrong.

I like Buck. His no nonsense style and plain talk appeal to me.


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## NBEventer

Speed Racer said:


> Actually, the person the book and movie were referring to was Buck Brannaman, NOT Monty Roberts. Buck was even a consultant on the movie, and they used one of his personal horses for a scene that the stunt horse kept getting wrong.
> 
> I like Buck. His no nonsense style and plain talk appeals to me.


I knew the movie wasn't relating to Monty, I was just thinking the hype for Monty was right around the time of the book. 

However I had no idea it was Buck they were referring to. Thats kinda neat actually.


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## tinyliny

I think there is a bit of a cultural schism here (gap or misalignment). I think that Dame Nuit's first language is not English. With that in mind, please consider that language and culture misunderstandings are a likely possibility, on both sides of the discussion. Please try to "cut each other a little more slack" if you can.


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## joseeandjade11

HappyHoofPrints said:


> I studied Parelli and Dennis Reis after sudying John Lyons for years. Then! I found Clinton Anderson to help me Re-Train 2 half Arabs and start my 2 new Arabian babies. Down UnderHorsemanship is the only trainer for me now. Never looked back!


Also a Clinton Anderson's fan, his methods are simply easy to understand and make so much sense! Also heard good things about the Lyons Legacy. In my opinion, Clinton is like the 'new' version of Parelli but with improved techniques.


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## Dame Nuit

tinyliny said:


> I think there is a bit of a cultural schism here (gap or misalignment). I think that Dame Nuit's first language is not English. With that in mind, please consider that language and culture misunderstandings are a likely possibility, on both sides of the discussion. Please try to "cut each other a little more slack" if you can.



Are you the only one who have noticed that? :lol:


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## boots

Dame Nuit said:


> Are you the only one who have noticed that? :lol:


Hardly noticeable. And your English is much, much better than my French.


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## themacpack

Dame Nuit said:


> Are you the only one who have noticed that? :lol:


Considering I have seen your country of origin referenced in several replies in this thread, I would say not.


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## jaydee

Speed Racer said:


> Actually, the person the book and movie were referring to was Buck Brannaman, NOT Monty Roberts. Buck was even a consultant on the movie, and they used one of his personal horses for a scene that the stunt horse kept getting wrong.
> 
> I like Buck. His no nonsense style and plain talk appeal to me.


 When the film came out in the UK Monty Roberts leapt right on to the bandwagon and really did sell himself as a Horse Whisperer and since Buck was never mentioned or stuck his hand up the award went to Monty - in fact I would say its only since the film was made about Buck that he became well known in the UK and appeared on some TV stations talking about himself - always sounding so modest & humble
A lot of wannabee american cowboys jumped into bed with Monty and sucked it all in - these had to be all very amateur and gullible people as the average experienced UK horsepeople were ****ed off that some american thought we needed to learn how to break horses without cruelty when our own non cruel methods had been successful for hundreds of years.


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## Speed Racer

tinyliny said:


> I think there is a bit of a cultural schism here (gap or misalignment). I think that Dame Nuit's first language is not English. With that in mind, please consider that language and culture misunderstandings are a likely possibility, on both sides of the discussion. Please try to "cut each other a little more slack" if you can.


Her uninformed, ignorant rantings and insults come across loud and clear, so I hardly think it's a 'cultural misunderstanding'. :?


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## Wanstrom Horses

^^exactly. Misunderstanding?? No.. Ignorance? Definitely..


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## Dame Nuit

you're flattering me, really! :lol:

*“For what the horse does under compulsion, as Simon also observes, is done without understanding; and there is no beauty in it either, any more than if one should whip and spur a dancer.” Xenophon*


centuries ago, they already knew that...  

Have fun guys! :wave:


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## bsms

^^ Ever see the bits Xenophon used?


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## Wanstrom Horses

Dame Nuit said:


> you're flattering me, really! :lol:
> 
> *“For what the horse does under compulsion, as Simon also observes, is done without understanding; and there is no beauty in it either, any more than if one should whip and spur a dancer.” Xenophon*
> 
> 
> centuries ago, they already knew that...
> 
> Have fun guys! :wave:


And your point being?.. No one here ever said they whip and spur their horses....


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## NBEventer

Wanstrom Horses said:


> And your point being?.. No one here ever said they whip and spur their horses....


Oh come on now! We use bits, so obviously we whip and spur our horses. Didn't you get the memo?


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## Wanstrom Horses

Haha! I just beat my horses to no end. I'm such an abuser! I also break their "skulls" with bits.. I'm surprised someone hasn't turned me in yet!! :rofl:


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## Speed Racer

I don't use whips, I use a 2X4 with nails in it. Works _so_ much better than any wimpy whip! :rofl:


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## COWCHICK77

Now all I need is PP to cure me of my evil ways.


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## NBEventer

I personally like spiked bits, the sharper the better. And I put glass in my horses boots so when they hit a jump they feel it. And I like to tazer them just before the fence to get that extra powerful leap in the air :rofl:


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## Speed Racer

Twisted wire bar bit with an added bicycle chain bit will _really_ get the horse paying attention to you as well, NBE. Be sure to give a few HARD yanks on his mouth to make sure the horse knows you're boss. :twisted:

I like the broken glass idea, too. Nifty! Who needs training when broken glass will make them jump higher without spending all that extra money? :lol:


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## Wanstrom Horses

COWCHICK77 said:


> Now all I need is PP to cure me of my evil ways.


Yes, so all us abusers can ONLY use our horses to lope circles on the beach with a tack rein and jump little jumps like agility dogs in the arena. Because that's only what horses should be used for. Heaven forbid if they even see cattle!!


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## NBEventer

Speed Racer said:


> Twisted wire bar bit with an added bicycle chain bit will _really_ get the horse paying attention to you as well, NBE. Make sure you give a few HARD yanks to make sure the horse knows you're boss. :twisted:
> 
> I like the broken glass idea, too. Nifty! :lol:


 
Oooo now you're talking!!! And add some leverage to that baby we are good to go! I think I need to tie the horses mouth shut and put tacks under the chin strap. :twisted:


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## Speed Racer

Oh yes, don't want him gaping his mouth at an inopportune moment, and those tacks will keep him paying attention! :thumbsup:


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## kitten_Val

_*Mod note: this thread was not meant to be "pop-corny", so please don't turn it into one, or it'll be cleaned up (and possibly closed). 

*_*In short, please stay on subject! *


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## Speed Racer

I thought we _were_ staying on subject, Val. Since Dame Nuit believes we're all a bunch of abusers, we're just sharing our tips and tricks. :wink:

What else is there to say about training, NH or otherwise? Use what works. If that's PP, then more power to you.


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## kitten_Val

Well, Susan... Just talk about Parelli (as the name of the thread states)... :wink:

Seriously though (and sorry if I repeat, I didn't read through all pages of this long thread) I do think PP IS a trainer (even though I don't like all those 7(?) games and other trick training), but the one who got lost in marketing. I also think "do-it-yourself for dummies" is quite dangerous approach when it comes to 1000 lbs animal with hoofs, teeth, and mind of its own. This stands not just for PP, but for _any _trainer preaching about it and selling DVDs. 

As for abusing, I have seen Parelli (as well as every other NH trainer out there) disciplining a horse. Discipline as well as whips, spurs, bits, etc. are not abusive, the abusive use of those is.


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## WSArabians

What do I think... Well, I think there is a reason the doctors, shrinks, and cops don't have 'Do-It-Yourself' tapes. 

$$


----------



## Speed Racer

kitten_Val said:


> As for abusing, I have seen Parelli (as well as every other NH trainer out there) disciplining a horse. Discipline as well as whips, spurs, bits, etc. are not abusive, the abusive use of those is.


Exactly. 

But there are some who believe that ANY use of said items, apparently _especially_ bits, is abusive, and anyone who uses these tools are ignorant Neanderthals who care nothing about horses or their well being.

These same persons also appear to have no real conception or understanding of other types of training, and that training _must_ be abusive, because again, it uses those horrible torture devices known as bits. 

There are many roads to Rome. On that MOST of us can agree, except for a few who are blinded by only one particular type of training, and dismiss all others as ignorant and unenlightened.

I know of no trainer, except for that crazy Russian of Haute Ecole infamy, who _doesn't_ use disciplinary tools as well as regular tack, including bits. Riding bridleless and tackless is fine for exhibitions or photo ops, but when it comes to actual disciplines or horses who have real jobs those things aren't just required, they're_ necessary_. That holds true whether you're a fan of Parelli, Zettl, or Morris.


----------



## Pegasus1

This thread seems to be getting back on track at last. 
But I would liken the antagonism that has been displayed as analogous to a religious war. This is a shame. I am not religious, but have a very healthy interest in belief systems of all sorts. After all when it comes down to it most religions belief in the same god, whether it be Allah, Christ, Yaweh etc. All religions also have their good points. I have spent many hours on a flight deck chatting to Muslim colleagues and find their understanding of god quite enlightening. 
If only the different religions could get together to understand each other they may find that there are ideas in other religions that actually help them to understand their own better. But that is not what happens. In many instances they would rather kill each other because of perceived insults to their religion by the other, even if the insult took place 100s of years ago. As a result they all loose a chance for greater enlightenment that cooperation could achieve.
This thread suggests a similar strife within NH. Because folks cannot stand PP,CA etc for one reason or another they are not willing to see if there are any nuggets of truth in their teachings and incorporate them in their own knowledge base.
I had hoped that this forum would not be like that. I had hoped that folks would ask constructive questions about different trainers, even if they personally did not like them. For example I went to some lengths to explain the 7 games on a different thread, and those who bothered to read that thread seemed from their replies to come away with a new understanding of the ideas. Even those who had only heard the level 1 understanding of the games and had firmly rejected them. 
That is how this forum should work.
When I get to where I have a solid foundation on myself and Filly then I would like to quiz folks on how to do reining, where to get the info. Even to visit with them if possible (airline staff travel has its' benefits  ). The problem is that the aggressive nature of this debate (and I have probably been guilty as well) leads me to not want to seek advice from many on here at all. That is not a rational point of view as there is clearly lots of knowledge here, but a gut reaction to strife. Can we see how religious wars start ?
James Roberts has a few rules on his yard. One was "Never say anything negative", and I never heard him ever do so. You could ask questions, but it had to be phrased in positive light. Not "I don't like playing games with my horse, it's stupid. Why on earth do you do it?" but "What are the seven games about and how do they help you ?". The first question will get a defensive answer with little information content, the second will actually get the respondent to think carefully about the answer (maybe even increase their understanding of it) and the questioner will get an understanding of the respondents ideas on the subject. They may not agree with the answer, but even in that disagreement they will gain knowledge.

I hereby pledge to try and post on this forum in this positive vein. Be tolerant to others ideas and try to ask only positive questions of those with whom I do not agree in order to try and understand their point of view more clearly. I also pledge to try and give only positive answers to questions I feel I can contribute to.
I hope others can join me in this and we can progress with more tolerance and understanding.


----------



## jaydee

I think you'll find that what mostly ticks people off is that many 'Parelliites' have a tendency to push the idea that without him they would never have achieved anything at all or without him we would all be flogging our horses on an hourly basis because he was the bringer of all things good and kind
You get an almost identical vibe from the 'Goreites'
Of course that isnt true - he even got most of his basic knowledge from people like Tom Dorrance and others like him and there are so many accomplished horse people out there that have achieved great things over the years without even hearing of PP which means that anyone who makes the effort can learn to be successful without him
One of my earliest 'mentor' was a second cousin of my Grandfathers - he would be in his 100's now. He learnt his trade from his father - they broke most of the horses and ponies in our area. A batch of New Forest ponies would turn up - 3 & 4 yr olds, totally untouched, no join up in a round pen - no one in the UK did that - they were stabled, handled, groomed, taught to lead, learnt to trust & rely on him so catching was never an issue, they got lunged, lunged with tack on, long reined, backed & ridden on to become safe reliable childrens ponies. I never once heard him raise his voice or use any abuse. No one ever said "wow' look at Bill, he's a miracle worker because it was his job and he knew how to do it.
James Roberts was undoubtably a capable young man but when I heard about him removing a headcollar from a first time backed horse because it wouldnt go forwards that screamed 'inexperienced and someone who had cut corners somewhere' and was a risk taker beyond what is reasonable.
I find it amusing when I look at an audience at a PP event and he's doing things that hundreds/thousands can do just as well and much better and the crowd is all shouting 'oooooohh & wowwwwww' like its never been done before
To me that is like worshiping a false god - which is why it does start to take on the feel of a religious cult when I hear people that seem to be so totally sucked in to him


----------



## Pegasus1

Well that started on a positive note didn't it, with an immediate attack on James Roberts as inexperienced and reckless. In fact he was anything but inexperienced and reckless. 
He was experienced enough that he was invited to take part in public colt starting demos in the USA. 
He introduced me into the idea of a thorough "prepare to ride" session prior to getting on a horse, even a well trained one. Not exactly reckless.
I guess we will never get over this attack on each others ideas which is a great shame as it could be a very progressive forum. 
Maybe a better response would have been "that's an interesting idea, do you have a video of it to share ?" 
Ah well, I tried


----------



## nrhareiner

That was no where near negative. Taking off a bridle on a green horse b/ he would not move forward it reckless. What he needed to do is get his rear out of the saddle and do some more ground work. Teach a horse the cue to go forward from the ground so when he was in the saddle the horse would have known what he wanted. 

How do I know this works? B/C I have been there with green horses who would not go forward. I got off and went back to the ground work. Got the horse better with the cue on the ground and then got back on might have been the same day may have been a week or more down the road. Fact is when I got back on the problem was gone.


----------



## Pegasus1

Good-bye all


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## WSArabians

Pegasus1 said:


> Good-bye all


Well now, that's sort of a crappy defeatest attitude.

Who cares if other's don't agree? You'll find that everywhere you go in life. 
Let 'em have their opinions and you, yours. Just don't engage them.


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## themacpack

Pegasus1 said:


> Good-bye all


So if/when people don't agree with you, offer opposing ideas, etc you just quit? :?


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## gypsygirl

im guessing after 28 pages of negativity, pegasus is out. cant really say i blame her. she must feel ganged up on.

on a different note, my farrier and PP used to work at the same ranch together. my farrier like PP a lot, but says he is more of a trick trainer. he said he couldnt get the colts started as fast as they wanted him too.

my farrier also knows mark rashid [sp?]. he said hes a terrible horse person. he was supposed to feed some draft horses out in a field, but didnt, and they ended up starving to death =/


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## themacpack

gypsygirl said:


> im guessing after 28 pages of negativity, pegasus is out. cant really say i blame her. she must feel ganged up on.
> 
> on a different note, my farrier and PP used to work at the same ranch together. my farrier like PP a lot, but says he is more of a trick trainer. he said he couldnt get the colts started as fast as they wanted him too.
> 
> my farrier also knows mark rashid [sp?]. he said hes a terrible horse person. he was supposed to feed some draft horses out in a field, but didnt, and they ended up starving to death =/


Oh for pity's sake - it is not "28 pages of negativity" - there are a lot of very valid, though out and reasoned opinions (on both sides) being expressed throughout this entire thread. As for the "ganged up" assertion - I am always amused when that is trotted out. Exactly how many people have to agree about something before they become a bandwagon/gang (I mean, if three people have already said they don't care for something, and you also don't care for it, are you mean to just not voice your opinion because that means you are ganging up on those who do care for it?)- why is is always only thrown out against people on one side of a particular discussion but not used in reference to those on the opposing side of the argument?


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## bsms

Pegasus1 said:


> ...Maybe a better response would have been "that's an interesting idea, do you have a video of it to share ?"
> Ah well, I tried


Why would someone react that way if their honest opinion was, "That's a technique that could get someone hurt"? Lots of folks read here without commenting. If that person read that technique, followed by "that's an interesting idea, do you have a video of it to share", then they might go out and try it. 

Politeness is good unless it is taken to the point of not challenging things that deserve challenging. I'm fairly unorthodox AND fairly new to horses, so I get challenged a lot. In spite of my thick skull, I sometimes learn from it. I'm not always wrong, although I'm sure I'm wrong more often than I admit, so the back and forth 'challenging' is good for me, and good for others who read a thread. It is a part of learning. :wink:


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## gypsygirl

i think you are taking my post a little far personally...

how would you feel if you were pegasus and you had a training method you liked and no one had anything good to say about it [pretty much]. she nicely tried to steer the conversation in a positive direction and was immediately met with negativity. 

every thread on here that is about parelli always ends up 100 pages long and constant bickering. it would be nice if it wasnt like that. i feel bad for pegasus that she cant talk about a training method she likes and have it be kept civil. i read from her posts that that is how shes feeling.

honestly, i dont have strong feeling about parelli one way or another. i just feel bad for pegasus and i can relate with her situation and empathize with her.


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## bsms

BTW - Pegaus1 is a guy.










Hopefully he'll stick around. Not a lot of guys on the forum.


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## gypsygirl

whoops my bad ! i assume everyone is a female !


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## Wanstrom Horses

gypsygirl said:


> i think you are taking my post a little far personally...
> 
> how would you feel if you were pegasus and you had a training method you liked and no one had anything good to say about it [pretty much]. she nicely tried to steer the conversation in a positive direction and was immediately met with negativity.
> 
> every thread on here that is about parelli always ends up 100 pages long and constant bickering. it would be nice if it wasnt like that. i feel bad for pegasus that she cant talk about a training method she likes and have it be kept civil. i read from her posts that that is how shes feeling.
> 
> honestly, i dont have strong feeling about parelli one way or another. i just feel bad for pegasus and i can relate with her situation and empathize with her.


If you read through the thread, I got a lot of negativity on my training method. There are two sides to every situation.. And maybe if PP was a decent horseman and a decent rider, there would be some much negativity about bit. He honestly couldn't ride a stick horse to the well...


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## smrobs

Wow, I've just caught up on this thread and all I can say is....Holy Shinoly! :rofl:

Unfortunately, folks who think that loping their horse along in a straight line down a beach is something that's impressive and exhibits phenomenal training if they can do it with nothing more than a string around their neck don't expect much of their horses.

Sure, the horse may (or may not) be perfectly content to plod around with zero expectations put on them, but that doesn't mean that everyone who actually uses their horse is mistreating them.

I can take any one of my broke horses and lope them around with a string around their neck...no problem at all. THEN, I can take any one of them and go accomplish something and do it at mach 3 if needed.

That little girl in the video of the horse on the beach looks like she's having fun, but can she stop that horse, spin him around, and ask for a lope the other direction and get it accomplished in less than 3 strides? I seriously doubt it.


Anyway, I could comment on a couple hundred posts in this thread, but this one really kind of stuck in my craw so I felt the need to address it.



Dame Nuit said:


> - why your horses look like robots (I understand that's for security)


Actually, no _real_ cowboy wants a horse that is a robot. Around cattle or riding in rough country, a robotic horse will get you killed. 

*Do not mistake willingness and obedience in a horse as being robotic.* 

Folks who do _actual_ work with their horses need a horse with a mind of it's own that is capable (and can be trusted) to make their own decisions regarding a lot of stuff. I require my horses to pick their own way across a pasture if I'm looking at cattle, even if we're running full out. If I'm working the rope, I need the horse to know where they need to be so that I don't have to take the time to tell them and break my concentration.

If you're running as fast as a horse can run behind a cow and trying to rope it, you need a horse that will stay on that cow's hip on their own with no input from you. It makes the whole thing harder on everyone involved; horses, cattle, and riders, if the cowboy has to actually cue the horse to stay on the cow's hip.

Dame, unfortunately, Hollywood does a very poor job of copying the actual life of a cowboy. I can watch any movie or TV show, no matter how great and "factual" the general public thinks it is, and pick it completely apart and point out about a million things that they are doing wrong. That, to me, is a true tragedy because much of the rest of the world bases their "knowledge" of the western way of life on what they see in movies.

Unless you've lived in the cowboy lifestyle or ridden a vaquero bridle horse, then you really have no idea about much of _anything_ regarding that subject and are in no position to judge.

However, many of us have watched enough of Parelli and his teachings (or, in some cases, handled enough Parelli trained horses) to have enough of an idea to make an educated judgment on that subject. Thankfully, I've only had 3 horses come through my barn whose owners were Parelli "followers". All 3 of them were ill-mannered, sour, and spiteful horses who were supremely unhappy when they arrived. However, when they left, they were very nice, responsive, and HAPPY.

The amazing thing is, all 3 of them were ridden in bits while they were here, they were used to work cattle, and they enjoyed their jobs so much that they would stick their own head in the halter when I would go to catch them in the dark mornings where their owner had to crowd them into a small pen just to catch them before. 


Where they had to be herded into the trailer with fence panels or have whips/ropes used on them to get them loaded when they came here, by the time they left, they would eagerly jump into the trailer because they knew that they had a day of work ahead of them.

Yet, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, you believe that those horses were being abused because they were ridden in a bit and actually had responsibilities to live up to. :?


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## COWCHICK77

Whoop whoop!!! good post smrobs! the little clicker only lets me "like", but I "love" it


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## Cherie

smrobs - I see you have run into the exact same thing I have. PP followers' horses that were so mad and kept ears back and 2 even ground their teeth around people. They had been picked at and pecked at until they were so ****ed at anyone on the end of the lead-rope that they must have wanted to kill them.

I used to hunt down a lot of horses for beginners and 4-H kids, etc. -- kinda like a cattle order buyer. I was not a 'trader' and did not want to turn over horses, but always had a order or two for a gentle horse or a 'project' horse. I got to the point that I would not even go look at one that people said were PP followers or had done the 7 games with them. I knew they were sour and mad and not willing and just plain had a ****-poor attitude. I did not want to retrain them and I sure did not want to stick some poor beginners with an ill-tempered horse. I just said "No thank you" when someone told me they were PP horses. On top of that, most of them did not ride worth a nickle. I guess they had mostly just 'played games'. And for all them to be ground games, their actual ground manners were horrible. Any ranch horse has better ground manners than those pigs did.

I just thought it was maybe just me or the horses I had run into. I'm sort of glad you've run into the same thing. 

Oh well. I'll get off of my soap-box now.
Cherie


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## COWCHICK77

You can add me to the list, I too have dealt with and or seen resentful PP trained horses.

EDIT, PP and the other "unmentionable" on this forum I can not even attempt to be open minded about....
Even in horse training where there are so many variables and methods there is still such a thing as wrong.


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## GotaDunQH

I have no use for PP or his methods and the product that is turned out as a result of his methods. It's a HUGELY flawed system and I'm in agreement with Robs, Cherie and Cowchick.


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## Cherie

I have run into quite a few horses that Clinton Anderson methods have been used on and have not seen any problems with them. [Some of them may be a little 'punchy' from being over-stimulated maybe.] But, they were not 'ill' from being 'over picked' at. As a whole, I would sure not avoid them like I do the PP trained horses.

On another note, I have run into quite a few horses that 'join up' had been done and the owners thought they were following Monty Roberts. They followed you around, but they they weren't broke to ride. When does he teach people to actually teach a horse something under saddle?


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## Northern

The only true test of how you're doing with horses is to listen to feedback from the horses themselves. Some have gotten their horses happy via PNH, others have gotten their horses happy via other programs. 

I'd like to get a bit more info on James Roberts sitting on a greenie & removing headgear when colt wouldn't go forward. (I've no familiarity with JR, so am unbiased). NRHA, do you have any notion of why JR thought that removing tack'd be a fix for no forward movement? Also, would you please tell me what the result was, with the colt? TIA!


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## BBBCrone

*scratches head*

I don't get this. Seriously I don't. Folks put up a post asking opinions. Other folks don't like the opinions offered so they take their ball and go home? What about some of the things that were said directly to Wanstrom? Both here and in her thread? She's not going home. Least I hope!

I am NOT a professional trainer. My Hubby is learning. But I do know enough to know that there's a bunch of folks around here that ARE professionals and do what they do and make a living at it. Therefore, they can and will TELL you what you NEED to hear, be the subject PP or that other individual or Monty or Buck, whoever. _*Not necessarily what you want to hear.*_

I'm really really tired from work so I hope this all made sense.


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## tinyliny

It's all good and well to try and convince folks that what you believe is correct and you'd like them to be on board with you, but in the end, you pretty much might have to state your case, let them state theirs, and let the audience decide which to accept. I don't see a whole lot of middle ground.

It's kind of like this: For the PP dislikers, their experience is that horses trained by PP followers tend to be resentful, or zoned out ., and the humans tend to be more likely to play games on the ground than ride. This is their experience, ( and happens to be a moderately large share of my experience, too). But, it's just their experience.


PP folks experience all kinds of joy and excitement and learning , as they find something they can really relate to. Their experience is so different that for them to hear the negative one might be almost shocking, at least baffling.

We are each allowed an opinion, it's just that the wider your experience base is, the more accurate your opinion is likely to be. I don't DO Parelli, and have met a limited # of PP folks/horses, so I will admit it's a limited experience base, so though I already have a slightly negative view, I am willing to be swayed.

If all you've ever done is Parelli training, then your experience base is limited. You can still have your opinion, but realize that it might have some maturing to do.


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## Northern

The mods created a separate NH forum due to the threads-that-turn-trainwrecks. Everyone, I think, has been really happy about that. Now: OP posted PP question IN the NH forum, & the non-NH'ers posted in it. _So, it's same as before the separate NH forum._ Seems the NH forum should be only for NHers, those who'd describe themselves as NHers, with a given list of the well-known NH trainers which these members study under/agree with. The OP's_ who want to hear from *NHers only*_ can post in NH forum, otherwise can start threads elsewhere.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Northern said:


> The mods created a separate NH forum due to the threads-that-turn-trainwrecks. Everyone, I think, has been really happy about that. Now: OP posted PP question IN the NH forum, & the non-NH'ers posted in it. _So, it's same as before the separate NH forum._ Seems the NH forum should be only for NHers, those who'd describe themselves as NHers, with a given list of the well-known NH trainers which these members study under/agree with. The OP's_ who want to hear from *NHers only*_ can post in NH forum, otherwise can start threads elsewhere.


Theres still NH stuff in the other threads.. So if that's the case, all the NH followers shouldn't post on the other threads.


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## Wanstrom Horses

BBBCrone said:


> *scratches head*
> 
> I don't get this. Seriously I don't. Folks put up a post asking opinions. Other folks don't like the opinions offered so they take their ball and go home? What about some of the things that were said directly to Wanstrom? Both here and in her thread? She's not going home. Least I hope!
> 
> I am NOT a professional trainer. My Hubby is learning. But I do know enough to know that there's a bunch of folks around here that ARE professionals and do what they do and make a living at it. Therefore, they can and will TELL you what you NEED to hear, be the subject PP or that other individual or Monty or Buck, whoever. _*Not necessarily what you want to hear.*_
> 
> I'm really really tired from work so I hope this all made sense.


No, no. I'm not leaving, I have way too much for that! Lol. Although is does sometimes get me in trouble.


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## Wanstrom Horses

And yes, every single Parelli trained horse I've run into, pins it's ears and runs the other direction when the owner approaches. And these were certified trained horses.. Seems that the program is doing the exact opposite of what PP markets..


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## Muppetgirl

Northern said:


> The mods created a separate NH forum due to the threads-that-turn-trainwrecks. Everyone, I think, has been really happy about that. Now: OP posted PP question IN the NH forum, & the non-NH'ers posted in it. _So, it's same as before the separate NH forum._ Seems the NH forum should be only for NHers, those who'd describe themselves as NHers, with a given list of the well-known NH trainers which these members study under/agree with. The OP's_ who want to hear from *NHers only*_ can post in NH forum, otherwise can start threads elsewhere.


I don't think that's how it works.....if someone posts a question asking for opinions on Parelli, then everyone should be entitled to respond. If someone asks a question in the reining forum, are only the 'reining people' allowed to respond? Nope.
You cannot separate yourself off so you don't have to hear things you don't like.

A lot of people here have a whole world of experience and knowledge to offer....


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## tinyliny

Northern said:


> The mods created a separate NH forum due to the threads-that-turn-trainwrecks. Everyone, I think, has been really happy about that. Now: OP posted PP question IN the NH forum, & the non-NH'ers posted in it. _So, it's same as before the separate NH forum._ Seems the NH forum should be only for NHers, those who'd describe themselves as NHers, with a given list of the well-known NH trainers which these members study under/agree with. The OP's_ who want to hear from *NHers only*_ can post in NH forum, otherwise can start threads elsewhere.


 
that's a thought. but, that rule doesn't really hold for the whole forum. However, it does serve to remind folks that if you think Natural horsemanship is hogwash, then perhaps you are in the wrong place. Or at least you should tone it down a bit, since this place is meant for folks involved in NH to have a place that they feel "safe" in, just like the Plus Sized forum.


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## smrobs

Northern, if you want a place to talk about NH or, particularly, Parelli, without getting "interference" from who _you_ would deem as non-NH why not just go join a strictly-NH forum?

Since this is an open forum, you can't tell folks "Well, you just can't post here".

That's the same as telling folks "Well, you don't train horses, so you can't post in the training section" or "You don't actively do <such and such discipline> so you are not allowed to have an opinion or post in threads about said discipline."

And, to be perfectly frank, many of the methods that most trainers use (myself included) can be included in what is described as "natural horsemanship"; i/e desensitizing, pressure and release, working _with_ the horse toward understanding instead of using force or pain, etc.

Just because I don't bow down to some guru or another doesn't mean that I can't have knowledge and an opinion about NH methods/clinicians, whether they are mass-marketed or not.


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## AlexS

I'd rather try to train a cow to ride than a PP horse. No way in heck I would ever buy something that had been PP trained. 

It's just not common sense to desensitize a horse to a whip, how does that even make sense? And then the further you delve, the more bizarre it gets. 

Do as you please with your own horses, I won't be buying them.


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## Wanstrom Horses

tinyliny said:


> that's a thought. but, that rule doesn't really hold for the whole forum. However, it does serve to remind folks that if you think Natural horsemanship is hogwash, then perhaps you are in the wrong place. Or at least you should tone it down a bit, since this place is meant for folks involved in NH to have a place that they feel "safe" in, just like the Plus Sized forum.


I've had a few NH followers come attack me on my threads.. If they need to feel safe about the training methods, then there's something wrong there. This is a public forum..


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## GotaDunQH

Northern said:


> The mods created a separate NH forum due to the threads-that-turn-trainwrecks. Everyone, I think, has been really happy about that. Now: OP posted PP question IN the NH forum, & the non-NH'ers posted in it. _So, it's same as before the separate NH forum._ Seems the NH forum should be only for NHers, those who'd describe themselves as NHers, with a given list of the well-known NH trainers which these members study under/agree with. The OP's_ who want to hear from *NHers only*_ can post in NH forum, otherwise can start threads elsewhere.


Using your logic...then the same can be said about the WP section, where many WP bashing threads are. Non-WP people and people with absolutely no experience in it...come in and bash the hell out of it.


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## Speed Racer

If we all demanded that no one who had an opposing viewpoint from our own be allowed to post, how would any of us learn new things? May as well just start a private blog, and only invite those whose opinions dovetail with your own.

Just because there’s a section for NH doesn't make it sacred or inviolate from those who don't buy into any of the marketing gimmicks, and whose experiences with horses trained by those methods is less than pleasant.

If all you want is total agreement, then a public forum is the wrong place for you.


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## Padrona

I just don't understand how a person can say "all PP horses are bored, angry, teeth grinding, ear pinning and running away from their owners." :? There are so many levels of Parelli training, and everybody from the very novice beginner to the trained 5 star instructors..... This is like saying all dressage horses hate their jobs and are angry, ear pinning monsters. Or all Arabians are psycho, wild nut bags. Or all Quarter Horses are post legged christmas hams that can't trot their way out of a paper bag.

Why would anyone make those kind of claims? None of that can possibly apply to all horses within that discipline or type.

I watched a Savvy club DVD yesterday, in which Linda Parelli was doing a demo with Remmer. She wanted to see at which point he noticed her. Someone put him in the round pen for her, and Linda snuck in a back way. She walked around the crowd, blending in, then started talking to him. "Remmer! Remmmmm...." His head snapped up, ears popped forward, and he started searching the crowd looking for her. He looked like a horse who just viewed his pasture mate across the parking lot. She stepped out of the crowd and walked toward the round pen, and he marched right up to the fence toward her with his ears pricked forward and greeted her with his head jammed up in her hands/chest. She rubbed him and greeted him, and he was clearly VERY happy to see her!

That's not me making up some story. That's a publically verifiable fact. Anybody can view Savvy Club DVD #14, December 2005, and see if for themselves. 

The Parellis teach explicitly that the 7 Games should not be the 7 Jobs, the 7 Tortures, the 7 Tasks, or similar. They should be fun, provocative, interesting, always switched up and changing so the horse doesn't feel he's being drilled endlessly. You can run through the 7 games in a matter of a few minutes and the horse doesn't even realize you're doing it.

Just like ANYTHING - HUMANS have the ability to screw things up. Anybody can latch onto 7 tasks they feel they have to do with their horse every day, and drill it and kill it until the horse resents it. But riders of any training style can do the same thing. 

Pat and Linda Parelli don't make horsemen. True horsemen are born with a sense of feeling, intuition, and timing. They have true compassion for the animals and almost a sixth sense when it comes to horses. A non-horsemen can take a program that was meant as a general overall guide, and drill it until a horse resents them. 

Every day I "do Parelli" with my Arabs, but I have the timing, the feel, and the compassion to know what their mental state is that day, and what should be done and not done. I never do the same stuff in the same order. I never go to the barn with a mental checklist and plan according to the DVDs. That's insane! 

I will tell you this - and you can choose to not believe it if you wish, but it's true. The one very difficult Arabian mare that I took to Pat Parelli for him to personally work, had changed like you would not believe. She was always a very dominant, opinionated horse who often resented any leadership I tried to give her. If I asked her to step over out of my space, I would gently touch a finger on her side, or cluck my tongue, and she'd move instantly. But she'd pin her ears and swish her tail at me. Everything was done with such ATTITUDE! Ugh it would get exhausting at times.

Well, she's still the same strong willed, opinated mare of course, but she's looking at me with ears up and forward, both eyes on me, in a questioning type expression now..."What do you want me to do?" Instead of "I'll do it but I'm ****ed off about it." 

Her expression, her demeanor, her attitude, and her general interest and spirit have changed for the BETTER. I love what Buck Brannaman says "Change the intention in your heart and you change the outcome." Through watching Buck, and Parelli, I have learned how to not be so direct line...("I will go out today and work on XYZ.") In thinking that way, I would get too focused on the outcome instead of the relationship. Anything the horse did that wasn't falling in line with my intended outcome would make me slightly annoyed or frustrated. NOT enough to physically harm the horse, or get rough on her, etc. but it was just my own mental and emotional state of being that the horse picked up on.

Since I now have the attitude of having fun, playing with my girl, putting the relationship first, we are actually making FAR MORE progress a whole lot quicker than we used to!

I attached a picture from a couple of days ago. We had already worked (played) for about an hour doing all sorts of fun things, but making a LOT of forward progress at the same time. This horse has come farther in a few months than she did in a few years. I can ride her bareback in a neck string out in the wide open and do poles, small jumps, transitions, halts, backups, rollbacks off the fence. Sure she still has the firery Arabian temperament but she is connected to me so much tighter now, that she feels she can truly get leadership from me, so she is so much happier, relaxed, and more easy going.

Yes I always had "leadership" of her, but it was more about "Do this. Do that. Go there. Stay here. Move your feet." Those things are all important, but I was lacking that deeper, emotional connection to her, like a foal has to its dam upon birth. That connection where the foal follows mamma and does what she does, doesn't spook or panic, or look to anyone else for answers. THAT kind of a connection is what we need with our horses. It's not an alpha horse/subordinant horse relationship. That's what I always thougth being the leader meant. But it's not. Not at ALL.

This horse is looking to me in a different way now. She is connecting with me more as if she was a foal and I was the mamma horse, than I'm her alpha leader that tells her what to do. Hard to explain, but in fact TOTALLY different. She is always looking to me, looking at me, ears up, expression soft and questioning. She used to enjoy being around me, and we had a great relationship, and clearly a good bond, but she an I really butted heads. It was always my will against her will. It's just different now. 

No I'm not a kool aid drinker. I'm not a PP worshipper. But I do think that the lynch mob mentality regarding Parelli on the internet is a bit much. It's taken on a life of its own and most people who fight against it so hard probably don't know the first thing about Parelli in reality. They only know what they've read on the internet or been told by others.


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## Cherie

Northern- You are 100% WRONG! I DO Consider myself a trainer that has used 'natural Horsemanship' for over 50 years. I think I train as naturally as anyone can train. I think I train -- or actually TEACH -- a horse in the same way way he would learn what it takes to get along with the herd. I punish one the same way horses punish each other. I reward one the same way a herd rewards an obedient member -- by leaving him alone and letting him interact in a positive way. I see the people who think NH means you never discipline a horse as 'lost souls' that will never understand how a horse learns and will never have a very well trained one. On the other hand, I have trained many horses from start to a finished horse that I never 'got after' in any way. They just never did anything wrong enough to need more than being interrupted while giving the wrong response.

I think I do a LOT better job of teaching a horse in a way he understands (using Natural Horsemanship) than PP does. I never see a herd of horses 'micro-manageing' every little move a horse makes like PP followers are taught to torture and not accept what they should from a horse. I am convinced that is why so many of them are 'ill' and hate people and that opinion seems to be well validated here.

This is a section called 'Natural Horsemanship' and the OP asked for opinions on PP. I think that is exactly what people have done. I do not think it is a 'train wreck' at all. They have answered that question to the best of their ability and knowledge and understanding. That is what I have done. It is not a section titled "For PP devotees only' or 'PP students only'. I think everyone did exactly what was asked in the heading. I would think that someone trying to decide if they want into a program or not should know the opinions of people that have had good results with it and people that have had horrible results with the horses trained this way and they can make up their minds if they want to get into this program or some other one. They are also better equipped to analyze results with their own horse if they get into the program. If their horse starts getting resentful and 'pinny eared' that can say to themselves "Whoops. This is turning my horse into an ill-tempered monster. This is not what I wanted from it."

I'm afraid I just cannot see anything wrong with people actually answering the question asked. JMHO

Cherie -- as a learner and teacher of Natural horsemanship and not as a Mod.


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## Padrona

I have learned how to think in a "we" frame of mind instead of an "I tell you, and you respond accordingly." NO, it's not spoiling the horse, or allowing them to control and run over you. But it's more of a positive way to think and direct the horse. "Let's do this together." "Why don't we try this." Instead of "Move your feet over there because I told you to do it." The latter isn't abuse. It's not harsh training. But it's the way 99% of us deal with our horses. We think that to be an alpha over them, we have to dictate things to them like alpha her members do. But that's not actually what we want. We need the leadership position, but it has to be a TEAM mentality. Dam and foal going to water tank or hay pile.....dam makes the decsions. Dam says "We will go now." Foal says "Ok, I'm coming with you!" Sure dam administers discipline when needed. She might nip the foal or physically force him out of the way if he ignores her. A good dam always has leadership but she's doing what she's doing FOR her baby, and not TO her baby. She's not viewing her foal as a subordinant herd member to be moved around at will. She is viewing him as her prize possession to protect, to teach, to move in unison with. 

And please don't misconstru this and say "Horses aren't fur children." No, they're not! They should not be treated as children, pets, or dogs. They shouldn't be coddled and cooed over. That is not helpful or safe for you or the horse! You have to have that strong leadership role and be ready to correct as needed. But just changing what's in your heart changes the outcome.


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## Muppetgirl

Padrona, if I had time to respond I would, however I'm off to work, have 28 horses to deal with, all of them from differing backgrounds. Only one of which has been touched by the 'magic hand' of a Parelli person, he's two, he bites, he pins his ears and charges people in the arena.....he's a real peach. I'm not his 'momma' and he's not my 'foal'.....I am human and I will leave a stripe on his ***.......
I could pick your story apart like a thanksgivng turkey....
I know what I know from hands on experience, NOT from what I've read on a forum........


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## Padrona

Muppetgirl said:


> Padrona, if I had time to respond I would, however I'm off to work, have 28 horses to deal with, all of them from differing backgrounds. Only one of which has been touched by the 'magic hand' of a Parelli person, he's two, he bites, he pins his ears and charges people in the arena.....he's a real peach. I'm not his 'momma' and he's not my 'foal'.....I am human and I will leave a stripe on his ***.......
> I could pick your story apart like a thanksgivng turkey....
> I know what I know from hands on experience, NOT from what I've read on a forum........


Well I'm sorry that you have such a negative, hateful view of your horse. :-( Even when Buck Brannaman dealt with the aggressive stallion that was ravaging people and trying to kill them, he never once got emotional, angry, or personal against the horse. He acted and spoke with compassion and true leadership. That is the mark of a true horseman in my opinion. The minute you let negative, hateful emotion rule what we do with a horse (stripe across his ***), you just lost. Buck didn't stripe the stallion's ***. He roped a hind leg from another horse and stayed in the safe zone. For the first time in that stallion's life, he gave him real leadership. Not love, not hate. Just leadership. He established boundaries. He used flagging to defend his own space and allow the stallion to deal with his emotions out there in his own space. The stallion was euthanized because he was so far gone, but the time Buck spent with him was a shining example of what a horseman really is. No emotion. No anger. No blame. Nothing personal. He showed compassion on that stallion and leadership in a way that boy had never known.

And there's no need to "pick my story apart." There's nothing to pick apart. It is what it is. My entire relationship with this mare has improved 10 fold. I actually have far MORE of her respect now than I did before. Again, sorry that you feel you have to be so negative. Life is too short for that.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

I say to each their own, if it works for you great - whatever "it" may be.

That being said and as the title asks for opinions here is mine solely based on what I've experienced first hand. The horses I've dealt with that have been trained via PP methods I've found a lot to be lacking, generally pushy and disrespectful (that's why they ended up with me to fix). Same with a couple of my students who started out with PP methods and came to me to fix the respect problems they had with their horses. I don't care if your horse is a left/right/upside down/inside out introvert/extrovert they still need to have manners, period. I don't know that it's the program itself or how the people that are into the program are interpreting it. However, somewhere along the line the message is not clear (or maybe it is?) on how a horse should behave when with humans. 

I hate to play into stereotypes but both students of mine fit the stereotype we often hear of Parelli fans, middle aged women, wanted to love them into behaving and playing games appealed to that side of them. The first lesson with one of them, mare that was utterly disrespectful, pushy, just general ill mannered. Owner asks after I'd worked with the mare for a few minutes "What game are we going to play for our lesson?" I was kind of taken aback as playing games seems to have gotten her in trouble in the first place, my answer was "The get the heck out of my space game." Both students and their horses are on a much more clear path, doing some competitive trail riding and generally enjoying their well mannered, respectful horses.

So from what I've seen & experienced, I am not a fan. Maybe one day I will meet a PP horse/human in person that could change that opinion but until that day comes I can't feel any other way than what experience has shown me.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Padrona, I think you are missing the point here. All of us who disagree with PP and his methods do know what they are. It isn't what we read on this forum that shapes are views of PP. many of us, me included have had our fair share of Parelli trained horses. EVERY Parelli horse I have encountered has been an angry, annoyed animal. And these were trained by certified trainers. And I was stuck trying to undo what was done before and make just a horse again. It's good Parelli methods work for you and your horses. That's fine and dandy, but in my experiences, I have not seen with my own eyes a good Parelli trained horse. All my opinions are based off my experiences, I did see PP doing a clinic in Boise at an Expo once. So I have seem the guy train myself, and once again, I disagree with his methods. It may work for people, or it may be hogwash. My method of training is based off my experience with horses of the years, my family history, and my area. And I'm not going to change it, nor and I'm ever going to change my views on PP. I've done my research on him and encountered PP horses firsthandedly. I have yet to see any good in his horses or methods. I'm not closed minded, and most of us are not. We just have seen the bad side of Parelli traing and have yet to encounter anything good. But I disagree with his methods and will continue to disagree with them..


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## nrhareiner

tinyliny said:


> that's a thought. but, that rule doesn't really hold for the whole forum. However, it does serve to remind folks that if you think Natural horsemanship is hogwash, then perhaps you are in the wrong place. Or at least you should tone it down a bit, since this place is meant for folks involved in NH to have a place that they feel "safe" in, just like the Plus Sized forum.


See that is just it. We or at least I do not think NH is hogwash. What We or at least I think is PP is hogwash and if not one but PP Followers can post in the NH section which is what this is not the PP section then all you are going to get is how great he is. What does that serve?


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## Wanstrom Horses

Padrona said:


> Well I'm sorry that you have such a negative, hateful view of your horse. :-( Even when Buck Brannaman dealt with the aggressive stallion that was ravaging people and trying to kill them, he never once got emotional, angry, or personal against the horse. He acted and spoke with compassion and true leadership. That is the mark of a true horseman in my opinion. The minute you let negative, hateful emotion rule what we do with a horse (stripe across his ***), you just lost. Buck didn't stripe the stallion's ***. He roped a hind leg from another horse and stayed in the safe zone. For the first time in that stallion's life, he gave him real leadership. Not love, not hate. Just leadership. He established boundaries. He used flagging to defend his own space and allow the stallion to deal with his emotions out there in his own space. The stallion was euthanized because he was so far gone, but the time Buck spent with him was a shining example of what a horseman really is. No emotion. No anger. No blame. Nothing personal. He showed compassion on that stallion and leadership in a way that boy had never known.
> 
> And there's no need to "pick my story apart." There's nothing to pick apart. It is what it is. My entire relationship with this mare has improved 10 fold. I actually have far MORE of her respect now than I did before. Again, sorry that you feel you have to be so negative. Life is too short for that.


And Muppet is not being negative. Some horses do need a stripe on their ***. They need set back in their place. Yes roping a foot is just fine, but sometimes that won't do it, on because you are on another horse. It is when you are on the ground that you are most venerable to the horse. I'm guess you have never dealt with a very aggressive, nasty tempered horse before.


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## gypsygirl

i think the problem with parelli threads is people just end up beating a dead horse....


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## nrhareiner

Padrona said:


> But I do think that the lynch mob mentality regarding Parelli on the internet is a bit much. It's taken on a life of its own and most people who fight against it so hard probably don't know the first thing about Parelli in reality. They only know what they've read on the internet or been told by others.


This right here is the big problem I have. PP people seem to think if you do not like PP that you are some how un informed or have never looked into PP and only go by what others have said. 

This could be the furthest from the truth. I get my opinion from watching listening too PP himself and all the.... he spots. Then watching all the PP trained horses around here. There are several barns around here who have a lot of PP followers in them. Heck you have a hard time riding in Oak Openings with out running into a group of them and their ill trained horses. So much so that I do not even like to ride there any more. This part has miles and miles of horse trail in a very large forest. Yet you still run into them.

My opinion has been formed over years of watching PP and the people who follow him and going through this stuff that he has put out. Just like the video I posted. Can not ride has no hands his horses who he has been working with for years do not look happy and are not very soft. What more do I need?


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## gypsygirl

nrhareiner said:


> *This right here is the big problem I have. PP people seem to think if you do not like PP that you are some how un informed or have never looked into PP and only go by what others have said.*
> 
> This could be the furthest from the truth. I get my opinion from watching listening too PP himself and all the.... he spots. Then watching all the PP trained horses around here. There are several barns around here who have a lot of PP followers in them. Heck you have a hard time riding in Oak Openings with out running into a group of them and their ill trained horses. So much so that I do not even like to ride there any more. This part has miles and miles of horse trail in a very large forest. Yet you still run into them.
> 
> My opinion has been formed over years of watching PP and the people who follow him and going through this stuff that he has put out. Just like the video I posted. Can not ride has no hands his horses who he has been working with for years do not look happy and are not very soft. What more do I need?


give me a break, padronas post has none of that mentality at all....

good for you for having some knowledge of something you dislike. can you honestly say that PP knows nothing or cant teach you a single thing you didnt think of before ?

i will say again, i dont have strong feelings either way about PP, but come on you guys. be a bit more open minded.


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## kitten_Val

Wanstrom Horses said:


> And yes, every single Parelli trained horse I've run into, pins it's ears and runs the other direction when the owner approaches. And these were certified trained horses.. Seems that the program is doing the exact opposite of what PP markets..


I don't care for PP and his program. I also think it mostly geared towards those who don't want, can't, or afraid of riding the horse (NOT saying everyone, but quite a lot of people who are looking into Parelli or "doing" it), as a "cure" program. Which is wrong IMHO. 

However I have to stand up here and say that while I consider it as a "trick training", some people don't mind to spend time on training horses to do those tricks. And quite successfully. Not to "build the bond", but simply because it's fun for them (and I see nothing wrong with it). 

I went to demonstration by Parelli-certified folks at the Expo out of curiosity, and horses did very nice tricks on a ground _willingly_. While I don't care for tricks personally (I do think Tommie Turvey's tricks much more cool), I do respect the time and energy those clinicians spent with their horses to achieve what they did. 

If the owner and the horse are both happy with 7 games, and the owner is not close-minded or bashing other trainers out there, then what is the problem?


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## Wanstrom Horses

gypsygirl said:


> give me a break, padronas post has none of that mentality at all....
> 
> good for you for having some knowledge of something you dislike. can you honestly say that PP knows nothing or cant teach you a single thing you didnt think of before ?
> 
> i will say again, i dont have strong feelings either way about PP, but come on you guys. be a bit more open minded.


That is exactly what her post was implying. That most of us know nothing of Parelli. When many have dealt firsthandedly. And of what I've seen, and experienced, he cannot teach me a single. Thing I didn't think of before. I've studied his methods over and over and found nothing. He can't ride, the horses trained are not any good that I have seen, his seat and hands are terrible and his main horse Magic isn't even that great... What is there to like??


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## Wanstrom Horses

I clearly stated in my other post that is PP worked for Padrona, that was good for her and her horse. But the problem being is many buy some Parelli DVDs, and think they are horse trainers, and then force it on their horse because of what PP does at clinics and on the DVDs, then they eventually sour up their horses. I've seen it time and time again. And like stated before every horse I have encountered with PP training has been a very unhappy, sour horse, thats fine if it works for some people and their horses, but what many people that follow PP imply is that we are closed minded because we disagree with his methods, how are we not to disagree when we run into very sour horses trained by PP methods. I'm not closed minded, I just have yet to see anything good come out of the Parelli program..


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## nrhareiner

Padrona said:


> I have learned how to think in a "we" frame of mind instead of an "I tell you, and you respond accordingly." NO, it's not spoiling the horse, or allowing them to control and run over you. But it's more of a positive way to think and direct the horse. "Let's do this together." "Why don't we try this."
> *I do not what a horse who is a partner is the true sense of the word. While the horse maybe a partner is the fact that we do things together he is not my equal. He follows what I tell him and when I tell him. If not we will both get hurt and I do not want the bills for that nor do I want my horse hurt. I want them to follow everything I tell them when I tell them. I want them to be a willing follower. Just like a horse would be to the alpha horse in a herd. Lead mare says go here and they do.*
> 
> Instead of "Move your feet over there because I told you to do it." The latter isn't abuse. It's not harsh training. But it's the way 99% of us deal with our horses. We think that to be an alpha over them, we have to dictate things to them like alpha her members do. But that's not actually what we want. We need the leadership position, but it has to be a TEAM mentality.
> 
> 
> Dam and foal going to water tank or hay pile.....dam makes the decsions. Dam says "We will go now." Foal says "Ok, I'm coming with you!" Sure dam administers discipline when needed. She might nip the foal or physically force him out of the way if he ignores her. A good dam always has leadership but she's doing what she's doing FOR her baby, and not TO her baby. She's not viewing her foal as a subordinant herd member to be moved around at will. She is viewing him as her prize possession to protect, to teach, to move in unison with.
> 
> *Yes and have you seen what a mare will do to a foal who does not follow her directions to the letter when she say to do it? It is not a partnership or a democracy. It is do it now just like a lead mare and the herd. *
> 
> And please don't misconstru this and say "Horses aren't fur children." No, they're not! They should not be treated as children, pets, or dogs. They shouldn't be coddled and cooed over. That is not helpful or safe for you or the horse! You have to have that strong leadership role and be ready to correct as needed. But just changing what's in your heart changes the outcome.


So you say you should not treat them like pets yet you advocate treating them as equal partners? They are not. They need to be told what to do and when to do it when I am working them. Only time I ever want a horse thinking on its own is a cutting horse working a cow in a show. Past that I want the horse waiting on my next cue. When I give it I expect that horse to follow that cue NOW.


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## nrhareiner

gypsygirl said:


> give me a break, padronas post has none of that mentality at all....
> *I can only think what he thinks by what is typed and that is what he typed. SO ya that is what I think he means.*
> good for you for having some knowledge of something you dislike. can you honestly say that PP knows nothing or cant teach you a single thing you didnt think of before ?
> 
> *I have yet to find anything new and meaningful from his program. What is new like his horseanality deal is just crap. Let see if we can figure out how a horse feels. Like they are human or something.*
> 
> i will say again, i dont have strong feelings either way about PP, but come on you guys. be a bit more open minded.


Was open minded way back when then started to see the end results of the PP System. Have yet to find a good example of a PP trained horse from a DVD


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## jaydee

Pegasus1 said:


> Well that started on a positive note didn't it, with an immediate attack on James Roberts as inexperienced and reckless. In fact he was anything but inexperienced and reckless.
> He was experienced enough that he was invited to take part in public colt starting demos in the USA.
> He introduced me into the idea of a thorough "prepare to ride" session prior to getting on a horse, even a well trained one. Not exactly reckless.
> I guess we will never get over this attack on each others ideas which is a great shame as it could be a very progressive forum.
> Maybe a better response would have been "that's an interesting idea, do you have a video of it to share ?"
> Ah well, I tried


 I think if you re-read my post I said that James was a very capable young man but if he hadn'r jumped on the PP bandwagon he would be in exactly the same position as all the other very capable young horse people in the UK - just making a living. he was smart - he saw a chance and grabbed it
I know nothing about the US style of 'colt breaking' so cant comment on that at all - I dont know if it runs in the same way as traditional UK breaking methods or not
Removing a headcollar from a first time backed horse is extremely reckless. Its not just endangering the rider but remember this - a horse will always retain bad experiences more than good ones because thats part of the learning curve of self preservation instinct - same with humans too but horses lack the ability to reason things logically. For eg - If a bombproof horse in traffic has an accident it will forget all the safe times and really struggle to accept that traffic isn't dangerous and often never be safe on the roads again.
UK style - By the time a horse is backed it should be comfortable with moving forwards at all paces on the lunge with no force -tacked up with enough restriction on the reins to its bit or to a headcollar that it would feel if a rider were holding them. The first time I get on I just have someone leg me up and I lie across the horses back. I will do this enough times, wrigging around, patting the horse firmly as I lie there so its used to movement. I then have someone capable lead the horse a few steps forward so it gets the idea of moving with a weight on its back. 
Next step - I have someone leg me up onto the horse - no feet in the stirrups at this stage but I take up light contact on the reins and if the horse is happy they lead the horse forwards. This is repeated until the horse is relaxed - usually in the first session if all the previous stages were done properly. I will then ride the horse on the lunge a few times and if all goes well its then ridden off the lunge and the gradual schooling process begins
Done correctly from day 1 with an average horse this might only take a week - less in a horse thats been well handled from birth
You get it wrong at this stage and the horse can be mentally scarred for life and if its your job then you cant afford to risk getting hurt and losing business while you recover
The horses that I've had that refused to move forwards the first time were the ones that struggled to accept having a rider on them but maintained self control by standing still - pressure to force them to move almost always results in an explosion - it had nothing to do with having a headcollar on if the previous stages had been done correctly, they just need more time to accept the weight and feel.
Not knowing things like that is a sign of inexperience


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## bsms

Padrona said:


> I have learned how to think in a "we" frame of mind instead of an "I tell you, and you respond accordingly."
> *
> I give you my word: From the first time I got on Mia's back, I had no doubt but that I wasn't alone, and that Mia had an opinion on everything. When we go out in the desert alone, I don't tell folks "I'm going out alone". I say, "We're going out..." - because I'm with Mia. She isn't a dirtbike. And I know the difference. That is what got me hooked on riding. As bad a choice as she was for a beginner's horse, the fact that I was WITH her and not just ON something made a big difference.*
> 
> NO, it's not spoiling the horse, or allowing them to control and run over you. But it's more of a positive way to think and direct the horse. "Let's do this together." "Why don't we try this." Instead of "Move your feet over there because I told you to do it." The latter isn't abuse. It's not harsh training. But it's the way 99% of us deal with our horses.
> 
> *And rightly so, I think. My goal is a bond with my horse: MY MIND, HER MUSCLE. We don't get there very often, although it is pretty awesome when we do. And it makes her happy, because she WANTS to know someone smarter than her is thinking about threats. It allows her to relax.
> 
> That doesn't mean I want her unaware of things. If she spots a rattlesnake, I want to know! And if I spot a loose dog, I'll let her know. But I need her to accept MY decision about rattlesnakes and loose dogs and javelina and kids on bicycles. If she won't accept my decision on when to run and when to stop, she can kill both of us.*
> 
> We think that to be an alpha over them, we have to dictate things to them like alpha her members do. But that's not actually what we want. We need the leadership position, but it has to be a TEAM mentality...
> 
> *In the horses I've got, and I've only got 3, physical dominance is only a part of being the lead. Mia is the lead in part because she's willing to kick the butt of those that defy her...but she is also the lead because she is fair. She is constantly watching over them. When they get scared, they rely on Mia for her judgment, not for her muscle. It is her total approach that makes her the lead and not just the bully.
> 
> That is what I think 'natural' horsemanship is about. Not being a bully, but being the lead. And that includes being tough - when appropriate.*
> 
> ...But just changing what's in your heart changes the outcome.
> 
> *Nope. Too many folks want to ride the relationship. That is the greatest fallacy of the NH movement, and I see it on threads here all the time. You ride a horse, not a relationship.
> 
> My rancher friend who sold me Trooper told me about Trooper's sire. The sire disliked all humans, and my friend more than most. But he also loved working cattle, and the wilder the cattle, the more the horse loved it. My friend rode that stallion over thousands of miles. And it was after those thousands of miles together that the stallion learned to accept humans. The horse died a few years back, and my very unsentimental rancher friend has a picture of him riding the horse, framed with hair from the mane of the stallion. And if you ask him, he'll tell you he has already ridden the best horse he'll ever meet.
> 
> You ride the horse. A relationship MAY follow...*


I define natural horsemanship as learning to read the horse well enough that you can communicate with the horse in a way the horse is preprogrammed to understand.

The handful of horses I've met understand 'work' far better than 'play'. Mia doesn't have many faults that couldn't be solved by having cattle to WORK. In their absence, I've been trying to turn her into a good trail horse. And she has a long way to go, but she obviously sees going out on the trail as worthwhile work. She tolerates riding in an arena, but boredom with that sort of thing has been a big source of her problems in riding. She needs a JOB...:shock:


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## Wanstrom Horses

Pardona, you alpha statement is incorrect in my book. My horses should move their feet where I tell them, they should respect me as their alpha or master or whatever you want to call it. I think the biggest problem with Parelli training is the mindset in which you have to be the horses "friend". This is where things go wrong. In being e horses friend, you are making yourself another horse. And a very annoying horse at that. This is where you get sour, aggressive horses. When a horse in the herd annoys another horse, how does that horse respond? It will bit, kick, pin ears and run off. Everything a Parelli trained horse that I have seen does. This isn't a matter of teamwork, this is simply annoyance. My horses know when i come out to the pasture, it's time to work. They aren't overjoyed with it, but they respect me, get the job done and do what I ask. That is team work...


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## GotaDunQH

^this for sure! Look, I'm not a horse, I'm a human...so I don't want my horse reacting to me or treating me the way he would another horse. So the whole..."I'm an alpha mare thing" bugs me.

Wanstrom...you also touched on something in one of your posts that I agree with and wanted to comment on. Neither Pat or his wife Linda can ride worth a lick. They have no concept on body control with a horse and teaching it, no concept of collection, no concept on getting drive with the hock, lift in the back and light on the forehand. Although now thaat Linda got a few Dressage lessons (when they USED to laugh at Dressage), she NOW touts that SHE has discovered the secret to getting a horse on a bit. And of course, if you care to offer up some money, you can get a DVD that shows you here secret! It REALLY is laughable.


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## COWCHICK77

Padrona, That is great if you have found success with PP methods. But given from what I remember from one of your previous posts you have several years of actual horse experience. That gives you a huge advantage over, again hate to stereotype, middle aged women with empty nest syndrome that decide to buy their first horse and need a step by step system to follow. These people do not have the previous experience to call upon when things don't work for them.
But even at that from my experience even the higher leveled people have resentful horses. Case in point, I worked for a reining horse trainer as did a gal who was a working student(and friend of said trainer) and practiced PP(can't remember for sure what level..3 or 4?) We both were given colts to start. All of her colts had a sh!tty attitude. Way to make a horse hate his job before they ever get ridden. Can't have pinned ears and wringing tails in the show pen. I took a different job after that so not sure how it all panned out, but pretty sure she wasn't allowed to start colts or at least using that method. 

I have worked for trainers that use some NH methods so no one can say that all show horse trainers use "traditional methods". I actually had a very well known cow horse trainer teach me a version of join up for starting colts, who would of guessed? 
PP is not a method that good trainers use to incorporate into their training program. Two years ago at the NCHA Futurity PP had a booth set up across from a chap builder friend of ours, his booth happened to also be under the huge TV for the live feed of the show, so I would lay on the couch and watch the show both on the TV and at the PP booth. You could tell the difference between the people that were there just to see PP and the folks there for the cutting. Not ONE show person or trainer stopped to visit the booth or talk to PP, it was his followers that came specifically to see him.
Don't you think if there was something to what he was doing that other trainers would be using it? I have never been asked to "go play games with those colts". But I have been shown other NH methods to use in conjunction with the trainers programs. And that speaks volumes to me.


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## Wanstrom Horses

^Thank you! And people do take their riding to heart to. I had a buckskin mare that was Parelli trained. Her head was in the air, she was hollow backed, no drive in the hock, it took me two weeks of fence work just to get her butt underneath her in her turns and stops. No collection what so ever..


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## GotaDunQH

Love your post Cowchick and it is spot on. I show AQHA and if Pat Parelli was the greatest trainer that so many people thinks he is, making ALL that money on the videos, clinics, gadgets, and other marketing tools (because he really is a marketing person and not a good trainer)....don't you think all these AQHA trainers would jump on the bandwagon and use his methods too? Just think of the "following" they would have! They would be turning clients away at the door.


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## bsms

^^ How can they keep up with Pat? HE has LINDA to advise him when things get tough...:shock:


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## GotaDunQH

I retired my WP at the end of show season last year and moved him from my trainer's to a barn up the street from my house. I know the owners (non-horse people) and the owners neice runs the barn. I have known this family for YEARS, especially the niece who DOES have horse experience. The uncle is a biz owner..construction and the like, has a ton of money and he thought it would be great if his 3 daughters had ponies...a status thing. So he goes on the internet and finds a PP CERTIFIED trainer in Rhode Island, gets hooked up with this "trainer" and buys 3 ponies. He would not listen to his niece who said..."stay away" from this guy. So I go down to the "trainer's" place one day with the niece because the 3 girls go down for lessons before the ponies actually come home.

Well I just about died when I saw this trainer, his students and they way he worked with the 3 girls and their ponies. NO safety whatsoever. He had these girls leading these green-trained ponies way out ahead of them....their hands holding the end of the lead while the pony was far back behind them. That is SO unsafe I had to shake my head. If a horse spooks...where do they run...STRAIGHT AHEAD. Then of course...there was the wiggling of the rope to get the ponies to back up...I always crack up at that method.

Then he had a few students riding their ponies and horses bareback. NO balance and centered seat on a darn one of them. ALL in a chair seat, upper body collapsed, legs shot forward and horses hollow and strung out. Then he said the way you ask a horse to stop, is to quit riding...and basically become even more of a sack of potatoes in the saddle....LOL. Anyone who TRULY know how to ride, knows that you NEVER quit riding....even riding your horse into a stop.

So after a few months of "finishing" the training on these green ponies...the ponies come home. And everyone of those 3 girls got bucked off, run off with, bit, dragged while leading...you name it. They lost interest within a month, and about 7 years later (today)....those ponies are still at the barn, NOTHING has been done with them and the barn owner thinks they are worth a gold mine....LOL.


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## kitten_Val

Wanstrom Horses said:


> But the problem being is many buy some Parelli DVDs, and think they are horse trainers, and then force it on their horse


But this is true for the people following other trainers as well. Like CA, Stacy, even Buck. :wink: Frankly I don't see how PP is different. If you don't know how to ride neither DVD gonna teach you that.


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## GotaDunQH

kitten_Val said:


> But this is true for the people following other trainers as well. Like CA, Stacy, even Buck. :wink: Frankly I don't see how PP is different. If you don't know how to ride neither DVD gonna teach you that.


 
And this is why I have a problem with all of the "celebrity" trainers. Although, it's hard to put Stacy in the NH category because she follows show training methods for reiners. And she is the only one in the bunch that actuals TRAINS and SHOWS and turns out a product. The rest dont. If you want a riding and performance horse...she's the only one that will get that done out of all the names you mentioned (or didn't mention in the celebrity trainer category).

A trainer, IMO, is someone who does it DAILY....day in day out, has a horse in for training, gets their hands dirty in the trenches, and turns over a finished product to the client. The ones on the celebrity list don't do that....they are way too busy marketing THEMSELVES.


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## kitten_Val

^^ I have to check (as I very well may be wrong), but I believe Stacy also has "do-it-yourself-for-dummies" DVD(s). I very much respect her as a rider and trainer though (I went to her demonstrations in a past).


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## nrhareiner

I agree I would not put Stacy in with the likes of PP and the others. First she is not pushing a "PROGRAM" Her DVDs are simply showing what SHE does to train the horses she shows. She has proven that what she does works. She shows how she does it, brakes it down and explains why she does it that way. She will also tell you what to do when it does not work and she used several horses at several different levels of training.


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## nrhareiner

kitten_Val said:


> ^^ I have to check (as I very well may be wrong), but I believe Stacy also has "do-it-yourself-for-dummies" DVD(s). I very much respect her as a rider and trainer though (I went to her demonstrations in a past).


No not really. She has several DVDs out there but each one touches on a single aspect of training. Being it starting colt, ground work, stops, control, or what have you. She is not pushing a program. She is simply taping what she does with her horses ever day.


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## kitten_Val

nrhr, Stacy did advertise her tack at the demonstrations. I have no problem with it personally, just saying. As for her being a true horseman - I don't argue with it, because I agree. She also said that no-bridle work started only after 1000+ hours of riding the horse by someone who can ride. Which should be a true eye-opener to some people who want to ride bareback and brideless after watching DVDs.


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## nrhareiner

kitten_Val said:


> nrhr, Stacy did advertise her tack at the demonstrations. I have no problem with it personally, just saying. As for her being a true horseman - I don't argue with it, because I agree. She also said that no-bridle work started only after 1000+ hours of riding the horse by someone who can ride. Which should be a true eye-opener to some people who want to ride bareback and brideless after watching DVDs.


Yes she is sponsored by a tack makers. As are most of the top trainers out there. Tim McQuay has a saddle with his name in it as does his daughter Mandy. As does Shawn and all the other top trainers. IT is just part of the game at that level.

The fact that Stacy will say that what she does is an end product of countless hours of training and riding just shows that she is not at all like PP and the others for a great part. What I get from watching their DVDs and all the hype is that "If you do this and this and buy this you too can do this" Even when what PP does is not even close to be correct. (Shown in the Video I posted).


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## bsms

She does (Westfall Horsemanship), but I don't get the marketing sense that she's trying to get anyone comfortable with starting a colt.

I don't object to someone having DVDs about starting a horse, provided they don't make it sound like anyone can do it. I've got some DVDs from Larry Trocha, who also has colt starting DVDs, but I don't get the feeling he is suggesting anyone can start a horse and "magically" succeed.

I think DVDs are great for trying to work a problem area or expand the teaching of an already good horse. Mia might be a PITA at times, but she knows the basics and is fundamentally a sweet & willing horse. I think it is OK for me to work on her balance in turns, or try to improve her stops. But when she was an uncontrollable mess, she needed a pro. Not a DVD, but a pro.

My main objection to Parelli is that he seems to market his stuff to inexperienced people who are afraid of their horse or even who need to train a green-broke horse. I honestly think that, in that situation, a person is better spending $50 on some trail shoes, and leading their horse on a lead rope. Start at a distance you & your horse can handle, and work up to 2-4 miles. I think regular 4 miles walks with your horse will teach a newbie (like me) more about your horse than any number of round pen sessions or poking it with a stick. Walking a horse is a good way to learn to read it, and comes in useful if you ever end up needing to lead it somewhere on the trail.

Then they need riding lessons...:wink:


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## nrhareiner

Yes Stacy has DVDs that is not the point. If you look they are broken down into very distinct area. Also if you watch them you will see that what she is doing is very basic and broken down very well.

If you look around you will see that trainers like Shawn and such have similar DVD's. The DVDs just show how they do what they do and the end result you see in the show ring.

What I find different about the DVDs from trainers like Stacy and Shawn is they are showing what they do. While people like PP are trying to sell you on a program with their DVDs. I find there is a bid difference between the 2 type of DVDs and how they can help.


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## Muppetgirl

Padrona said:


> Well I'm sorry that you have such a negative, hateful view of your horse. :-( Even when Buck Brannaman dealt with the aggressive stallion that was ravaging people and trying to kill them, he never once got emotional, angry, or personal against the horse. He acted and spoke with compassion and true leadership. That is the mark of a true horseman in my opinion. The minute you let negative, hateful emotion rule what we do with a horse (stripe across his ***), you just lost. Buck didn't stripe the stallion's ***. He roped a hind leg from another horse and stayed in the safe zone. For the first time in that stallion's life, he gave him real leadership. Not love, not hate. Just leadership. He established boundaries. He used flagging to defend his own space and allow the stallion to deal with his emotions out there in his own space. The stallion was euthanized because he was so far gone, but the time Buck spent with him was a shining example of what a horseman really is. No emotion. No anger. No blame. Nothing personal. He showed compassion on that stallion and leadership in a way that boy had never known.
> 
> And there's no need to "pick my story apart." There's nothing to pick apart. It is what it is. My entire relationship with this mare has improved 10 fold. I actually have far MORE of her respect now than I did before. Again, sorry that you feel you have to be so negative. Life is too short for that.


This is it^^^ you said it in your very first sentence......that's the kicker. If I'm walking through the arena to pick something up and a spoilt Parelli trained two year old comes flying across the arena towards me with his ears pinned and his teeth bared, you can bet your bottom dollar I'm going to lay it on him.....I wouldn't consider that hateful or negative....I would consider it self preservation and demanding respect......
What happens when someone's kid decides to take a short cut through the arena when the owners turn that horse out??? 

I've seen a gelding bite someone on the shoulder, push her to the ground and try to lay on her like a bull.......she should have layed it on him the first time he bit her.......but oh well that would have been negative and hateful right? Compared to what that horse did to her.....


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## GotaDunQH

^ I know...where did the "hateful" come into play? None of us on here...and I mean NONE of us, have a hateful view of our horses. We have a REALISTIC view of our horses. To say we have a hateful view is rude, insulting and extremely presumptious. Not necessary at all Padrona...and as matter of fact, speak for yourself. You have no right to cast judgement and presume in such a manner.


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## Wanstrom Horses

kitten_Val said:


> But this is true for the people following other trainers as well. Like CA, Stacy, even Buck. :wink: Frankly I don't see how PP is different. If you don't know how to ride neither DVD gonna teach you that.


I never said I followed or even liked any of them. Quite frankly, I don't really care for big name clinician trainers. GotaDunQH said exactly what I was going to say. None of them reall are trainers IMO. It's easy to do something when you are good at marketing yourself. When your outside doing it for a living and working with what you have, and still cranking out great horses, then your a trainer. The others? They may have some good things in their methods, but they are salesman more than anything..


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## nrhareiner

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I never said I followed or even liked any of them. Quite frankly, I don't really care for big name clinician trainers. GotaDunQH said exactly what I was going to say. None of them reall are trainers IMO. It's easy to do something when you are good at marketing yourself. When your outside doing it for a living and working with what you have, and still cranking out great horses, then your a trainer. The others? They may have some good things in their methods, but they are salesman more than anything..


 Thing is you can not lump Stacy into that group. She is not a clinician trainer. Although she does do a few but so do all reining trainers. NRHA promotes the top trainers doing clinics. Stacy still trains horses. More hers then out side horses at this point but she is still training and still showing reiners.


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## Wanstrom Horses

I never stated Stacey was a big name trainer. Stacy's a good rider, although I've never watched her videos on training, so I can't say much. But most in the spotlight arent the greatest trainers, nor horseman. Just good marketers...


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## nrhareiner

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I never stated Stacey was a big name trainer. Stacy's a good rider, although I've never watched her videos on training, so I can't say much. But most in the spotlight arent the greatest trainers, nor horseman. Just good marketers...



She was on the list you quoted. So I wanted to point out that she really does not fit into that list.


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## Speed Racer

Yes Wanstrom, please do a search for that paragon of virtue. I think you'll find my description is rather understated.


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## bsms

Folks who don't like Parelli have been outspoken, but some of the comments made about their style of riding were...well, a bit more than outspoken, IMHO.


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## SouthernTrails

.

Thread is now open, several post containing personal attacks have been removed.

Everyone Please remember proper posting Etiquette 


.


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## bsms

For Pegasus1:


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## Newfie

*Trainers*

I read down through some of the threads on different trainers.BTW, I do not understand how some members cannot debate an issue without being rude and obnoxious.I will weigh in on this one.I do not follow any specific trainer.I have watched Monty Roberts ,PP, Clinton Anderson, ,BB, David Lee archer,Rick Gore [dare I say it],Mia , Eva Roemaat and many others.I have taken bits and pieces from them all.Basically whatever worked best with my 2 geldings. I dont hold anyone as being a divine entity when it homes to horse training.Here is a quote for some of you "“Rudeness is the weak mans imitation of strength.” Eric Hoffer


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## Padrona

Muppetgirl said:


> This is it^^^ you said it in your very first sentence......that's the kicker. If I'm walking through the arena to pick something up and a spoilt Parelli trained two year old comes flying across the arena towards me with his ears pinned and his teeth bared, you can bet your bottom dollar I'm going to lay it on him.....I wouldn't consider that hateful or negative....I would consider it self preservation and demanding respect......
> What happens when someone's kid decides to take a short cut through the arena when the owners turn that horse out???
> 
> I've seen a gelding bite someone on the shoulder, push her to the ground and try to lay on her like a bull.......she should have layed it on him the first time he bit her.......but oh well that would have been negative and hateful right? Compared to what that horse did to her.....


If you have a dangerous, aggressive animal on your farm, you need to get professional help from a really experienced trainer. If you have a horse that is charging, attacking, and threatening to kill anyone who enters his paddock, I guarantee you that laying a stripe across his *** with a whip WILL NOT FIX IT. If you try to pick a fight with such a damaged horse, you will probably end up the loser. A horse like that is going to need major reform. 

Was this horse spoiled from babyhood on? Sure, maybe. Did he need some strong training when he was young? Probably! But whipping him as an adult, damaged horse isn't likely to help.

When Buck dealt with the same situation, as I said earlier, he roped the horse's hind leg, then worked the pants off him in the round pen until he was tired. He put a rider on his back and worked the adrenaline and aggression off that horse. That horse looked changed at the end of that session. He eyes were soft, he was tired, and relaxed. Working a horse, and moving their feet gets you into their brain rather than whipping them and leaving whelts on their hide. 

And you might think that horses fight and damage each other in the herd to establish dominance, and that is definitely true, but really extreme horses like that can and do fight to the death. Do you want to get into that kind of battle with a horse? I had a mare boarded one time who had to live ALONE because of her extreme aggression toward other horses. She shared a fence line with another mare for months, and they seemed to get along well. We finally decided to put the two mares together because they had formed a bond through the fence. Well, it took several people with whips to drive them apart after they darned near killed each other. They were tearing flesh off each other, and my mare had so many strained muscles in her hindquarters from kicking violently at the other mare, that she was lame and off work for about 6 months. It was horrible. If someone wasn't there to break them up, one of them would have killed the other. It was outright battle to the death aggression. 

So if you have a horse that is THAT dangerous and dominant toward humans, I would not go in there with a whip picking a fight. You might get into a battle that you cannot finish. But that is our human nature - just whip and beat our way to the top. We let emotion get the better of us. You are feeling in danger and threatened by the horse so you want to get even. You want to protect yourself. You want to FIGHT BACK and teach that dirty rotten ________ a lesson! :evil:

But I would be willing to bet money your problem would only get worse.

The fact that horse is a Parelli trained horse means absolutely NOTHING. The Parelli program does not whatsoever endorse dominant, dangerous, aggressive behavior!! I watced Pat go toe to toe with my own mare and it was not pretty at times. He was NOT allowing her to dominate and run over him. Pat Parelli kicked my mare in the belly wit his boot toe because he was trying to defend himself. She was running him over and he finally said ENOUGH. STAY OUT OF MY SPACE. 

That dangerous stallion in the Buck movie never was exposed to Parelli. I trim a mare who is borderline dangerous/aggressive, and she has been traitionally trained. That mare will come at you with TEETH and ears pinned. It's terrible.

Sure any training method can screw a horse up. But it's not the method itself. It's the person doing the applying of the method.


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## nrhareiner

The fact is that while PP may not advocate a horse trying to be dominant the fact is that the vast majority for PP trained horses I have come across are dangerous and need a good lash across the rear side.

There is a difference between an aggressive dangerous horse who is that way naturally and one that is let to get away with it and it becomes a learned response. I find that there are very very few truly dangerous aggressive horses out there that are not human made.

I could easily see my stallion being one of them. He is the biggest baby anyone can ride him. However he has been trained very very well. When I moved back up here from Tn I had to board him. The barn manager at the one barn had little business running a barn little lone handling a stallion. She would let him get away with so much that he became dangerous to the vast majority of the people around. He was a baby with me as he knew he could not get away with it so there was nothing I could do to fix it but move him to a barn where the BM had a clue. Took her about 3 days to get it into his head that she was not going to put up with it. Have owned that horse for almost 20 years now and out side of that time he has never had a problem. 

So sometimes the horse just need to find out that he will not be allowed to get away with it. Some times that means a good butt whoopin.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Padrona, I'm afraid you have not had the opportunity to work with a very aggressive horse. It's a long process and the first step is getting them scared of you again. Working the daylights out of them will get them tired, but not scared. I have dealt with many problem horses over the years that people have brought me. I had two untouched stallions that would try and attack you over the fence. I have a mare that chased her owner around the roundpen and tried to bite, kick and trample her. Roping a hind foot will work sometimes, but not always. You have to get those horses scared of you again, you have to put them back in their place and teach them that you control where their feet go. Because horses like that have absolutely no fear of humans, nor respect. You must get them in the roundpen, every time they even think of attacking, stripe them, hard. You want them to run away from you. Because a horse that is scared has all the respect in the world for humans. Then you start over with them and build a trusting relationship. I've never not been able to retrain an aggressive nasty horse using this method and frame of mind. They all ended up being respectful gentle horses.. Actually, to be 100% honest, one of these horses was a Parelli level three gelding that had lost ALL respect for his owner...


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## Saddlebag

No matter who the trainer, human nature will find the faults with each one rather than the positive. Part of learning to train animals is also seeing what not to do whether it's intentional or not. Somtimes all you may learn is how to part with your money and get very little value for your dollar.


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## Newfie

Saddlebag said:


> No matter who the trainer, human nature will find the faults with each one rather than the positive. Part of learning to train animals is also seeing what not to do whether it's intentional or not. Somtimes all you may learn is how to part with your money and get very little value for your dollar.


So very true .I have often joked that if God almighty himself came down as a horse trainer,someone would find fault!


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## Muppetgirl

Padrona, your so busy defending PP training, that you've missed my point.

The two year old at our barn was l a lovely little horse when he arrived, then the owners have dinked around with him PP training him that he has BECOME this way. He's annoyed, angry and doesn't know where he stands with people.

We don't need a professional trainer, the horse needs new owners and a butt kicking.

This horse was MADE this way, not born this way......big difference. This isNt my first encounter with a PP trained horse......the last two that were at our barn got told to leave because they were pushy, angry horses. The leaned on their stall doors, dragged their owners down the aisles, couldn't be controlled on a long line in the arena, pinned their ears and tried to bite people over their stall door.....they boarded at the barn, just like this two year old, they weren't there for training, so I got to see first hand what results PP training has. It got so bad with these two horses that no one wanted to ride in the arena while they were in there being played with.....

I'm done with this. I will never advocate PP training.


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## Golden Horse

My thought on this, for what it's worth.

I have a friend who started with PP and was a great disciple for a while, she has since moved on and brought in things she has learned from other trainers, and she now sees the faults in the PP doctrine, and has kept what has helped her, and dropped the rest. I love having her help when I'm working with horses, we share ideas and are happy to adapt techniques to get something that works for a horse.

Another friend has not moved on, she is still very much guided by PP principles, she was going to 'cure' Ben of his loading issues, but before they even got near the trailer she had handed him back, poor lad was just so confused by what she was doing with him that he was threatening to go after her:shock: My normal sweet big fella was just a mess. 

I learned there to go with my gut, and I should of stepped in as soon as I saw him getting stressed, the one BIG thing about any horse training, learn when to come on strong, and when to quit!


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## Saddlebag

The problem with a clinic situation is there is an expectation of results from the crowd which places enormous pressure on the clinician. That in turn can affect his/her good judgement. Things may go badly and there will be regrets but what's done is done.


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## nrhareiner

Saddlebag said:


> The problem with a clinic situation is there is an expectation of results from the crowd which places enormous pressure on the clinician. That in turn can affect his/her good judgement. Things may go badly and there will be regrets but what's done is done.


This is true with Clinitions like PP and CA and the like b/c that is their only job and source of income is through their clinics and selling their DVDs and such. I do not find this to be true when you go to a clinic put on by what I would consider a REAL PROVEN trainer. I do several clinics a year depending on how much extra cash I have. These clinics are put on by proven trainers who make their living in the real world of horse training. These clinics are normally put on by local affiliates as a source of making extra money for the affiliate. These trainers have nothing to prove and what they are passing on in these clinics is how they train the horses they show.


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## GotaDunQH

Yea, real trainers that come out every now and then to do a clinic is where you actually learn something, because they are doing it on a daily basis with client's horses in the barn. The celebrity guys just go on the road and don't do any hands on anymore, daily, with client's horses.


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## Padrona

Yes there are spoiled, dangerous horses originating from "ANY" type of training method. I don't care what name you attach to it, BAD TRAINING, IS BAD TRAINING.

I have the unique opportunity to travel around and see many different horses on a daily basis because I'm a barefoot trimmer. I work on horses ranging from week old foals to 38 year old toothless seniors. Thoroughbreds to Fjords. Gypsy Vanner to Quarter Horse. Arabian to POA. Paso Fino to Percheron. This is my full time job. I work with horses every single day. 

So far, I can count about 7 horses that I would say were outright dangerous, not safe to trim or be around. One was labeled a "farrier killer," one has to be tied up short to keep her teeth off your face. One was so wild he kicked my tools all over the barn from one end to the other, knocked down both handlers trying to control him, and then bolted through a gate and took it off the hinges. I never even touched him! That all happened within the first 2 minutes of him walking into the barn aisle. One was a yearling who had already gone through 3 trainers and had to be worked to a lathered sweat before anybody could touch his feet and he still kicked out violently with both hinds. One was a 30 year old gelding that just had "moods" and "bad days" and if he was being ****y and crabby, he was all teeth and heels and nobody could touch him. There were times I had to just skip him because they said he was in a "bad mood." Owner said he's been that way his entire life! One hand to be drugged and twitched to be led from the pasture to the barn. One mare I never even met but a new client set me up to trim her other horses, then told me about this mare she had just given away, and I should be glad because it was a total fiasco to trim her. Another gelding I never met - the owner told me about him. He attacked a farrier with his teeth and threw him over a pipe rail gate. She had him put down.....And another I didn't include in the 7 was a young Appy gelding who wasn't dangerous, but he was difficult. He could just NEVER get it. He would fall down, stomp his feet, snatch his legs. I trimmed him for about 3 years and that horse never got better. Every time I was out to see him, it was circus to get him done. I do work with difficult or untrained horses a lot and after about 2 trims or so, they are usually doing really great. But not that guy! Boy he was tough. 

You know what EVERY one of them had in common? Purebred Appaloosa. Every single one of them! It's almost become a joke - if somebody tells me about a major behavior or emotional problem with a horse, I almost always ask, "An Appy, per chance?" 

But you know - *I stll don't think there is one thing wrong with the Appy breed as a whole.* My mother raised purebred Apps before I was born. I am guessing they get into trouble because people select for specific traits and colors, and so you might be more likely to breed bad temperaments just to get specific traits and colors.

Appaloosa horses are VERY intelligent! I have found them to be more like a mule almost, in that they tend to really think, and they need really good training in most cases. So I believe I tend to see and hear about so many "Appys gone wild" because of bad genetics, and bad training. *But it's no fault of the breed*! 

But the point of this is to say, you can draw any parallell you want on any topic you want, but it *doesn't mean it's accurate*. I bet if polled all of you, you might say you have NEVER in your life encountered a poorly behaved Appaloosa horse. Every one you've ever been around has been awesome! So there is no way I can let my experience with Appy horses in my little corner of the world taint my view of Appy horses the world over! That would be absolutely silly. Even if I were to encounter 50 "bad" Appys, that is 50 out of how many hundreds of thousands in the world?! It would be absolutely silly and uneducated for me to declare that the breed is bad based on my own little sampling of horses. 

I trim some really awesome fantastic Parelli trained horses, and I trim some spoiled brats that are owned by people who "do Parelli." It all depends on the human initiating the training - NOT te method used, or the breed, or age of the horse, or anything else. Anything that is "wrong" with a horse can be pinned back on the human doing the training. 

Is it easy for people to just buy some DVDs and call themself a horse trainer - thereby ruining horses? Sure! Same way it's easy for people to buy a pretty Appy and then ruin it because they just don't have the sensitivity or knowledge to train such an intelligent, thinking type of breed. But I don't believe the answer is to destroy the guy who produces the DVD, or eradicate the offending breed of horse. People just need to get smarter about the way they train and handle horses 

I should add of those 7 difficult horses I described, only 1 was owned by a woman I would say "does Parelli" and her other horses were completely fine.


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## nikyplushbreyer

I have gone to the horse and soul and to say so myself he is probably the best way to go in terms of a quick result.


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## nrhareiner

nikyplushbreyer said:


> I have gone to the horse and soul and to say so myself he is probably the best way to go in terms of a quick result.



That is the problem. They are quick fixes and that is not what you want. 

I have reiners and by definition a reiners is to be willingly and effortlessly guided.

You know how long it takes to get to that point? About 2 years before you ever think about stepping foot into a show ring. Most trainers never get past the walk for the first 2 months and then anouther 2-3 before they get past a trot into a loop. Why? B/C you get what you get as to what you put into your fundamentals. WHen you are building a house if you spend extra time and effort in the foundation the rest of the house goes up a lot faster and a lot stronger and the finished look 100 times better. A horse is no different. Skimp on the fundamentals you will have a very very hard time on the rest.


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## nrhareiner

Padrona said:


> Is it easy for people to just buy some DVDs and call themself a horse trainer - thereby ruining horses? Sure! Same way it's easy for people to buy a pretty Appy and then ruin it because they just don't have the sensitivity or knowledge to train such an intelligent, thinking type of breed. But I don't believe the answer is to destroy the guy who produces the DVD, or eradicate the offending breed of horse. People just need to get smarter about the way they train and handle horses
> 
> I should add of those 7 difficult horses I described, only 1 was owned by a woman I would say "does Parelli" and her other horses were completely fine.


That is the problem. It is easy to buy a DVD and cheap and heaven forbid that a horse owner actually pay a REAL PROVEN trainer to work with their horse and teach them. NO that some how makes you less of a horse owner if you use a trainer. I see it here all the time. If you use a trainer then you are somehow less of a horse person and you can not know what you are talking about b/c you need a trainer to train your horse. So in turn these people go out and buy all these DVDs and take a crash coarse of DIY horse training. You know who suffers? The horse. 

Stop saying that PP and his DVDs are this great fix all, they are not. This type of things is the problem. If they did not exist then people would go find a good competent proven trainer and get the help they need. Using a trainer does not make you less of a horse person. It makes you a more intelligent one at the end of the day.


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## Wanstrom Horses

NRA, I totally agree. The problem with backyard trainers and all these DVD clinicians is the time frame. You can fit everything it takes to train a horse in a few DVDs. It's takes me between 3-5 YEARS to finish a horse. Not a few months.. And Padrona, I will never like PP or his methods. That won't change. It isn't just because of the horses, which most were level three horses, that I have run into, but his methods in general. And the guy can't ride, AT ALL. I would think, and hope,mas a big name clinician, he would be able to sit a horse right and have light hands. But he can't.. I will never agree with his methods. I've looking into his methods a lot, mainly so I could figure out how to take all of it out of a horse. I do not like or agree with him, and many other clinicians for that matter.. And that isn't something that will ever change..


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## Cherie

I had to chuckle on the post about how mean all of the Apps were that one person ran into. I have yet to run into my first bad App. Some of the older ones are really dumb, but once they learn what you want, they are solid forever. I always thought they were too dumb to learn the cute tricks and bad habits that smart horses figure out with novice riders. 

When I was sending a lot of 'dude horses' to the YMCA Camps and to dude ranches in Colorado, I used to buy every gentle sound one that came through the local sales or I found privately. I have one now, a big sorrel with a blanket by the name of Frosty. Gee, he is nice and rides good for anyone that can pick up the reins and he is only 7 and rides like he is 20.

I used to take in a lot of really spoiled and exceptionally mean horses. I retrained several stallions that were a LOT worse than the horse shown in the movie about Buck Branaman. Not one was a App. They were QHs, Paints, TBs and a couple of really mean Arabians. Some had put people in the hospital and a couple had nearly killed men -- including one local trainer that was attacked and had his Femur fractured in multiple places with bone sticking through his jeans. It permanently crippled him. Another one had turned tail and kicked a woman I knew very well and had helped her with him years before. He kicked one eye out and broke every bone in her face. She required many plastic surgeries. Her husband called me from the hospital and told me and asked me to go to their house and get him before he got home from the hospital. Not one had to be destroyed and not one was an App. Oh well. Sorry to get off topic.


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## palogal

Marketing GENIUS and a dang good trainer, himself. His method is complete and total BS.


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## LisaG

nrhareiner said:


> Stop saying that PP and his DVDs are this great fix all, they are not. This type of things is the problem. If they did not exist then people would go find a good competent proven trainer and get the help they need. Using a trainer does not make you less of a horse person. It makes you a more intelligent one at the end of the day.


I'm not a Parelli follower, but I don't know that it's fair to blame him for inexperienced people deciding to start their own horses. Does he promote that idea? I doubt it (but if he does, well, then, I guess he's not the brightest). 

Not too many people around here follow Parelli, or are too into straight-up natural horsemanship, so I haven't seen any train wrecks that can be attributed to that. What I tend to sometimes see is macho riders who have too much horse for their skill level, **** the horse off with their incompetence, and get dumped. Or novices that while not macho, once again have too much horse for their skill level.

Every now and then I talk to someone who has acquired a young, unstarted horse to teach their loved one (who happens to be a beginner) how to break horses (thankfully this is rare around here).

These folks I'm describing haven't even heard of Parelli, so I assure you that getting rid of Parelli wouldn't help that much (at least in my area). People lacking common sense existed long before horse gurus started making DVDs.

Personally, I picked up a few little useful things of Parelli's in the '90s, when I was a spring chicken. Some of his techniques are counter-intuitive to me, though. I could probably say that about most gurus. 

It seems to me that the knowleadgable local horse people I most admire pull bits and pieces from many different places - a little old school cowboy stuff, a little 'natural horsemanship,' etc... They use what works for them and what makes sense, and they're not afraid to try something new.


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## palogal

I will say...watching the video of him getting CHUCKED at Road to the Horse was pretty awesome.


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## LisaG

Cherie said:


> I used to take in a lot of really spoiled and exceptionally mean horses. I retrained several stallions that were a LOT worse than the horse shown in the movie about Buck Branaman. Not one was a App. They were QHs, Paints, TBs and a couple of really mean Arabians. Some had put people in the hospital and a couple had nearly killed men -- including one local trainer that was attacked and had his Femur fractured in multiple places with bone sticking through his jeans. It permanently crippled him. Another one had turned tail and kicked a woman I knew very well and had helped her with him years before. He kicked one eye out and broke every bone in her face. She required many plastic surgeries. Her husband called me from the hospital and told me and asked me to go to their house and get him before he got home from the hospital. Not one had to be destroyed and not one was an App. Oh well. Sorry to get off topic.


God, where do those horses come from? I've never seen a horse as bad as the one in the Buck documentary, and I can't imagine one much worse. You're a brave woman. I would run the other way!


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## jaydee

LisaG said:


> God, where do those horses come from? I've never seen a horse as bad as the one in the Buck documentary, and I can't imagine one much worse. You're a brave woman. I would run the other way!


 They mostly come from people who have trained them to be that way by allowing it, horses need clear boundaries from day 1. I've been around hundreds of horses that would never dream of crossing the line but there are plenty more that will - the problem comes when people have this stupid idea that all horses are created equal - they just aren't
I took on an arabian stallion that was going to be shot because he was so aggressive, his owner had been sedating him, bribing him with carrots and thinking he could get him to be his 'friend this way. YES This was a man not a feeble woman and it was before PP his the UK so to me also highlights the sort of people that join his fan club. It took one good wack with a hefty stick to tell him it wasnt acceptable
The horse in the Buck movie may have had any number of other problems - I dont think it was ever confirmed if it had some sort of brain damage or not. If it had been mine it would have been shot with a sedative dart and castrated first. That horse wasnt ay all nervous of the sack & flapping a sack at an aggressive horse is never going to help - it just irritated the horse and imflamed the situation. Rule 1 - never underestimate your opposition
The idea of you stop a horse by stopping riding it?
Well good luck with that if you have something forward going - my sort of horse. We've bought 2 new horses since we came to the US and in doing I've ridden dozens - various breeds, a couple of hunter jumpers that could get over a 3ft fence OK, some top arabian/part arabian show horses etc and the majority of them stopped moving the minute I stopped kicking & pushing
That is not my idea of a well trained enjoyable ride


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## LisaG

NRHAReiner, I just re-read your post, and I see you weren't referring to people starting horses, but people who do get in over their heads with any horse. You probably have a point there, but I wonder if the people who buy the DVDs would be any more likely to send a horse to a trainer whether or not those DVDs were available.

I don't know about your area, but we have very few professional trainers where I am, and they book up fast and early. And some of them don't even take problem horses anymore - they just start colts and take on performance horses.


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## Padrona

Cherie said:


> I had to chuckle on the post about how mean all of the Apps were that one person ran into. I have yet to run into my first bad App. Some of the older ones are really dumb, but once they learn what you want, they are solid forever. I always thought they were too dumb to learn the cute tricks and bad habits that smart horses figure out with novice riders.
> 
> When I was sending a lot of 'dude horses' to the YMCA Camps and to dude ranches in Colorado, I used to buy every gentle sound one that came through the local sales or I found privately. I have one now, a big sorrel with a blanket by the name of Frosty. Gee, he is nice and rides good for anyone that can pick up the reins and he is only 7 and rides like he is 20.
> 
> I used to take in a lot of really spoiled and exceptionally mean horses. I retrained several stallions that were a LOT worse than the horse shown in the movie about Buck Branaman. Not one was a App. They were QHs, Paints, TBs and a couple of really mean Arabians. Some had put people in the hospital and a couple had nearly killed men -- including one local trainer that was attacked and had his Femur fractured in multiple places with bone sticking through his jeans. It permanently crippled him. Another one had turned tail and kicked a woman I knew very well and had helped her with him years before. He kicked one eye out and broke every bone in her face. She required many plastic surgeries. Her husband called me from the hospital and told me and asked me to go to their house and get him before he got home from the hospital. Not one had to be destroyed and not one was an App. Oh well. Sorry to get off topic.


THANK YOU! You proved my point EXACTLY! "MY" personal experience in my day to day job with Appys has been this - every single dangerous horse I've been faced with having to trim has been an Appy. Every.Single.One. But that is "MY" personal experience, and nothing else. You go down the road to somebody else and ask them if they ever experienced a dangerous Appy....the answer might be NO.

So you can't say that ALL Parelli trained horses are dangerous, spoiled, brats that are going to hurt somebdy. Whatever you experience in your tiny little piece of the earth....well, that's all it is. YOUR personal experience and opinion, and it doesn't necessarily represent the overall facts.

I would have no right to state unequivocally that all Appaloosa horses are dangerous, belligerant farrier killers, just like you have no right to state that all Parelli trained horses are dangerous, spoiled brats. NEITHER opinion would be true.

I trim plenty of Parelli trained horses that are absolutely fabulous to trim and work around and underneath! That's just the facts. Sorry if you don't believe it.


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## Padrona

nikyplushbreyer said:


> I have gone to the horse and soul and to say so myself he is probably the best way to go in terms of a quick result.


Yes, he does give a quick result, but the REAL training comes later. PP told me in no uncertain terms that I have a long road ahead with my mare. He told me that she was going to require daily work. 

I had hired trainers to work with her, and with me. I took lessons on her. I paid a John Lyons certified trainer to drive over 60 miles one way to my farm to assess the horse, and the only thing she could offer me in terms of behavioral analysis was that Arabians are pretty stupid compared to Quarter Horses. If you spend 2 minutes teaching a QH something, you'll need 2 hours to teach an Arabian.

Really? Really?!

In the first 5 minutes PP was with my horse, he told me more about her behavior than 4 other trainers had told me after working with her for hours an days. Yes I did have some good moments with these trainers. Yes they did help teach me some things with her that would be beneficial. No, it wasn't all bad, but there was a huge hole in this horse's training that I just could not seem to close up. 

PP was the only trainer that actually told me - you got an awesome horse here. This is what you need to do to get through to her .....

And in the last 3 months since PP worked with my horse, I've made exponentially more progress than I made in the 8+ years prior to this.

Also, I think that the quickest results come from the trailer loading horses. The trailer loading demo horse stabled next to me always took 1-2 hours to get on the trailer. The day they left from the tour stop to go home with that horse, the owner calmly walked her right up to the trailer, tossed the rope over her back, and the mare walked in and stood in her spot. She loaded in 2 seconds. The owner was nearly in tears. So yes that was a really quick result, but something that should last the horse's lifetime.


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## LisaG

jaydee said:


> The idea of you stop a horse by stopping riding it?
> Well good luck with that if you have something forward going - my sort of horse. We've bought 2 new horses since we came to the US and in doing I've ridden dozens - various breeds, a couple of hunter jumpers that could get over a 3ft fence OK, some top arabian/part arabian show horses etc and the majority of them stopped moving the minute I stopped kicking & pushing
> That is not my idea of a well trained enjoyable ride


I have no idea what you're getting at here. I didn't say anything about riding such horses. I just said I wouldn't want to tackle a dangerous horse's issues (i.e. I'd run the other way). Fortunately I haven't had to, and I don't intend to go out and find one.

There are plenty of good horses out there, so I prefer to leave the badly damaged ones to people with the interest in and experience to help them.


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## Cherie

> Originally Posted by *LisaG*
> _God, where do those horses come from? I've never seen a horse as bad as the one in the Buck documentary, and I can't imagine one much worse. You're a brave woman. I would run the other way!_


Some horses have a very dominant natures -- particularly some studs. It is not always related to inherent disposition. Horses with a dominant nature can be messed up very easily. For some, all it takes is a handler that backs away from a horse that lays his ears back and shakes his head. From that day on, the horse gets more and more bold until they decide they can attack that person (or any person for some horses). You've seen the pasture bullies that dive at other horse and take hunks out of their backs or butts? Well, just place a person in that picture and you have an attacking horse.

The first spoiled stud I took in I had signed a contract to stand at stud to the public back when I had a stallion station. He was a really good-looking gray AA - ROM son of Quick M Silver that came off of the track 2 years earlier. The guy also wanted me to ride him before and after the breeding season. 

He had him hauled to me by two guys driving a big 16 foot U-Haul rented box van. [I'm sure they did not know he was going to haul a horse in it.] He was cross-tied in the front where he could not kick it. ]I found out later that he had kicked apart 2 or 3 trailers.] Of course, they arrived just before dark.

We had a loading chute so they backed up to it and the driver and his helper put a chain shank on the horse but kept his rope lead on him also. The two of them led him out and to his new stud pen and run-in stall. They kept him between them, put him in the pen and almost ran to the truck and left. They gave me a check from the owner for his first two months' board and training. Of course, the owner did not come. Of course they did not say anything about him being vicious. They acted like they were just doing the owner a favor because he could ot get away. The guy lived 300 miles away in Denver. I lived in SW Colorado on the other side of the mountains.

The next morning went in his pen with a halter and lead. I went to halter him and he jumped in the middle of me, head down, hitting me in the stomach with his head and knocked me all the way across the pen. It was a head butt like a bull would do without ears back or any warning. I just thought he dropped his head to be haltered. It caught me 100% off guard and by total surprise. I crawled out of his pen by crawling under the bottom board of the fence. I was OK but pretty shaken up. I tried to call the owner, but could not reach him.

It took one hour to make him into a 'nice horse' with respect. He turned into a different horse that quickly. I halterd him across his gate. It took a little while but I got him haltered with a big heavy custom-made mule halter. It was too big, but I know it would hold a 1300# mad horse. I got a friend to come and we led him (between us) to my square 'breaking pen' that had a 6 foot snubbing post in the middle of it. [Now I knew why two guys led him with two leads] I had a mule chain (made from heavy hardware store chain that twisted and laid flat) and had a big bull-snap in one end of it. It went over his nose but was too low because the big halter was too big. I tied him with it to the hitching post with it (keeping the other lead on him too) and slapped his nose. He attacked the post while I stepped back. He pawed it, attacked it with his teeth and finally got a front foot over the lead he was tied with. It came down over his nose and cut off his air. My friend asked if I was going to let him die as his eyes rolled back and his tongue turned blue. I waited until he passed out and fell (front foot still hung up on the rope. I took out my pocket knife and cut the rope. He fell and started breathing. I jumped on his head and went to petting him all over while he laid there. I did not know what I had or what I had accomplished. I had no idea. 

But, when he got up, he thought I was god. I think he thought I had saved his life. I really do not know. All I know is it took me a long time to trust him. I soon went to riding him and I stood him at stud for 4 or 5 years until he was sold. Some of the best horses I ever rode were sired by him.

Later, I talked to his owner and he came clean. This horse had grabbed him by the chest and tore several muscles, putting him the the hospital. He had kicked completely apart more than one trailer. All of this was after an uneventful 2 years at the track. He brought him home because he could not run faster than AA and all of the spoiling took place at his place south of Denver. I was young then and lucky it came out like it did. I was probably 21 or 22 back then and he was the first vicious horse I had agreed to take. Many more followed after that and my methods to get them back on track got a lot more refined. But this horse was my first and was a real success story. 

I also got him back to hauling good in a 2 horse trailer. When the owner sold him (for a lot of money), the new owner hauled him to Skiatook, OK in a 2 horse trailer, about 900 miles.


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## jaydee

LisaG said:


> I have no idea what you're getting at here. I didn't say anything about riding such horses. I just said I wouldn't want to tackle a dangerous horse's issues (i.e. I'd run the other way). Fortunately I haven't had to, and I don't intend to go out and find one.
> 
> There are plenty of good horses out there, so I prefer to leave the badly damaged ones to people with the interest in and experience to help them.


 That part of my post was in response to #330 (I thinks thats the right one) who commented on PP teaching that the way to get a horse to 'whoa' was to stop riding it. It wasnt directed at you at all
If more people avoided buying horses that they weren't capable of managing there would be a much smaller fan base for all of these DVD trainers. I would imagine that for every success there have been a thousand + failures


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## LisaG

jaydee said:


> That part of my post was in response to #330 (I thinks thats the right one) who commented on PP teaching that the way to get a horse to 'whoa' was to stop riding it. It wasnt directed at you at all
> If more people avoided buying horses that they weren't capable of managing there would be a much smaller fan base for all of these DVD trainers. I would imagine that for every success there have been a thousand + failures



Okay, thanks for clearing that up. That was one of the PP things I never really got, either.


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## GotaDunQH

GotaDunQH said:


> I retired my WP at the end of show season last year and moved him from my trainer's to a barn up the street from my house. I know the owners (non-horse people) and the owners neice runs the barn. I have known this family for YEARS, especially the niece who DOES have horse experience. The uncle is a biz owner..construction and the like, has a ton of money and he thought it would be great if his 3 daughters had ponies...a status thing. So he goes on the internet and finds a PP CERTIFIED trainer in Rhode Island, gets hooked up with this "trainer" and buys 3 ponies. He would not listen to his niece who said..."stay away" from this guy. So I go down to the "trainer's" place one day with the niece because the 3 girls go down for lessons before the ponies actually come home.
> 
> Well I just about died when I saw this trainer, his students and they way he worked with the 3 girls and their ponies. NO safety whatsoever. He had these girls leading these green-trained ponies way out ahead of them....their hands holding the end of the lead while the pony was far back behind them. That is SO unsafe I had to shake my head. If a horse spooks...where do they run...STRAIGHT AHEAD. Then of course...there was the wiggling of the rope to get the ponies to back up...I always crack up at that method.
> 
> Then he had a few students riding their ponies and horses bareback. NO balance and centered seat on a darn one of them. ALL in a chair seat, upper body collapsed, legs shot forward and horses hollow and strung out. Then he said the way you ask a horse to stop, is to quit riding...and basically become even more of a sack of potatoes in the saddle....LOL. Anyone who TRULY know how to ride, knows that you NEVER quit riding....even riding your horse into a stop.
> 
> So after a few months of "finishing" the training on these green ponies...the ponies come home. And everyone of those 3 girls got bucked off, run off with, bit, dragged while leading...you name it. They lost interest within a month, and about 7 years later (today)....those ponies are still at the barn, NOTHING has been done with them and the barn owner thinks they are worth a gold mine....LOL.


Here's the post and I am the author, and yep....the "quit" riding to stop a horse is just bad horsemanship...plain and simple, yet this is what this Parelli CERTIFIED training was saying. I saw with my OWN EYES his students doing exactly what he said....it was just nuts and the worst horsemanship I've ever seen, and Parelli teaches this. There are many examples of riding a horse into a stop, but the two that stick out in my mind are:

1. A reining horse, the rider rides to, into and out of the sliding stop. They DON'T just quit riding.

2. A halt in a Dressage test, the horse is compacted (collected) the whole way INTO and THROUGH a halt, so the horse stops SQUARE!

Like I said, Parelli can't ride worth a lick nor can he teach someone to ride.


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## LisaG

Cherie, you are the woman. I would have punched that owner for not warning me, but then I guess that's why I'm not in the horse training business!

I grew up on a ranch, and the bulls were never aggressive towards humans. I realize they can be dangerous, but to be honest, cows with calves are usually more dangerous in my experience. So I just don't get why people end up with these deadly studs. They must treat them like big babies. 

GotaDunQH, I agree. The rope wiggling doesn't make sense either. I liked how PP explained some of the other yielding stuff with the halter, though, back in the '90s. I know he didn't invent this, and I'm sure other people explained it to me along the way, but that was one thing he explained that made sense to me. 

I do just enough of it that my horses understand what I need them to do, and they're all light. I'm pretty assertive about making them respect my space, too, though.


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## Mylady

I support NH 100%! Simply because I have an ex-race horse and believe you me when I mean RACE I mean RACE:shock: I needed to establish bond between us and Parelli's 7 games did the trick plus I now ride him bitless and he is much more responsive and positive. I feel much safer and happier myself. 

In comparison to other NH trainers Parelli is a great trainer with tonnes of experience and common sense and I am very keen to carry on with the training as far a s I could possibly go


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## jaydee

I grew up with horses in a world before Parelli
SO
QUESTION
How do all the enthusiasts think that horses were trained and ridden on prior to the birth of NH?
This is a genuine query as I'm interested to see what people think happened


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## Muppetgirl

I must point out, I've noticed there has been some confusion, let's NOT get BREED confused with TRAINING......ANY BREED can be 'TRAINED' to be a jerk.....whether its an Arab or an appy or a QH......


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## kayhmk

jaydee said:


> How do all the enthusiasts think that horses were trained and ridden on prior to the birth of NH?


Better on a general level, I think. Not because NH ruined people and their skills, but because historical developments. When farming society started to truly fell and more and more people were born city dwellers, some (most?) of the traditional horsemanship and horse sense was lost. Today most of horse people are not born into it, rather than that, they pick it up as a hobby. Very few people grow up in a situation where they are exposed to horses and horsemanship from and early age or daily. So the overall level of horsemanship in the population is less than it used to be.

On a concrete level, I think there always was "NH" people around. They didn't call it NH or think it was something special. They just did things that way. F.ex. my father (!! not a horse person!) seems to be way more NH than I am and he's been with horses only as a boy with no instruction. If say "NH" to him, he doesn't have a clue. He doesn't play games. Yet he operates pretty NH with my mare, instinctively. (On a side note: Instinctive Horsemanship would be the best! Can haz program? :B)

Sure there were good and bad examples of horse breaking and riding, just like there are now. A few years ago I watched a video from 1920's or 30's where an army officer trained a 3 yo. never-been-touched horse to first rides. Attention to the horse and the quality of that training was way better than what's generally done around here nowadays by non-NH English riders. 

The feel I have though is that people pre-NH had more specific goals and better direction with their horses. They needed their horses to do X otherwise the horse wouldn't earn his upkeep. People hadn't the money to let horses become disrespectful or just stand in a box. Training was quick and to the point. Sure they had the ability to give horses time and take things slow where needed but they didn't go on all of these tangents. I think NH programs try to teach everything to everyone and people get stuck. Not every horse (in my opinion) needs to master every game, movement, exercise perfectly to do its job well. I think many horse owners have lost their sight of what's needed and important or where they are going, what they want from their horse.

So why do NH? 
- good programs that show you what to do with your horse (a big problem for many people!)
- appealing sensibility
- easy to come across
- for fun (applies to people who keep horses for a hobby)
- tried everything else and it just works
... and probably a few reasons more. 

The life we lead have changed drastically for many. Horse owners don't spend 16 hours out working with their horses. Families who used to depend on horses maybe haven't seen one up close in generations. People interested in horses don't have that easy access to generations' horsemanship experience. NH fills a need in many a modern lifestyle. Thank god for marketing?


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## GotaDunQH

jaydee said:


> I grew up with horses in a world before Parelli
> SO
> QUESTION
> *How do all the enthusiasts think that horses were trained and ridden on prior to the birth of NH?*
> This is a genuine query as I'm interested to see what people think happened


I did too! I joined 4-H back in the mid-late 60's and our group leader was my mentor. THAT's how I learned, hands on all the way...not spending time in front of a TV watching a video.


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## Mylady

10 years old, no saddle, old halter, rope reins - open field in the south of Ukraine. That's how I learned to break and ride a horse Looking back I always think - is that really how they used to do it? Oh, yes!!:lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Cowgirl94

I knew a mare who was really problematic. She had been broke by a «trainer» who really messed up the horse. She really was a difficult mare, no one could ride her. After a couple years of different trainers and riders, the owner decided to try the Parelli method with a coach. The mare totally changed, she trusts humans as never before. She even came to the point where a child could ride her. For that mare, it really worked magic. However, as in every methods, there are bad coaches. So just be aware of that.


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## COWCHICK77

kayhmk said:


> Better on a general level, I think. Not because NH ruined people and their skills, but because historical developments. When farming society started to truly fell and more and more people were born city dwellers, some (most?) of the traditional horsemanship and horse sense was lost. Today most of horse people are not born into it, rather than that, they pick it up as a hobby. Very few people grow up in a situation where they are exposed to horses and horsemanship from and early age or daily. So the overall level of horsemanship in the population is less than it used to be.
> 
> On a concrete level, I think there always was "NH" people around. They didn't call it NH or think it was something special. They just did things that way. F.ex. my father (!! not a horse person!) seems to be way more NH than I am and he's been with horses only as a boy with no instruction. If say "NH" to him, he doesn't have a clue. He doesn't play games. Yet he operates pretty NH with my mare, instinctively. (On a side note: Instinctive Horsemanship would be the best! Can haz program? :B)
> 
> Sure there were good and bad examples of horse breaking and riding, just like there are now. A few years ago I watched a video from 1920's or 30's where an army officer trained a 3 yo. never-been-touched horse to first rides. Attention to the horse and the quality of that training was way better than what's generally done around here nowadays by non-NH English riders.
> 
> The feel I have though is that people pre-NH had more specific goals and better direction with their horses. They needed their horses to do X otherwise the horse wouldn't earn his upkeep. People hadn't the money to let horses become disrespectful or just stand in a box. Training was quick and to the point. Sure they had the ability to give horses time and take things slow where needed but they didn't go on all of these tangents. I think NH programs try to teach everything to everyone and people get stuck. Not every horse (in my opinion) needs to master every game, movement, exercise perfectly to do its job well. I think many horse owners have lost their sight of what's needed and important or where they are going, what they want from their horse.
> 
> So why do NH?
> - good programs that show you what to do with your horse (a big problem for many people!)
> - appealing sensibility
> - easy to come across
> - for fun (applies to people who keep horses for a hobby)
> - tried everything else and it just works
> ... and probably a few reasons more.
> 
> The life we lead have changed drastically for many. Horse owners don't spend 16 hours out working with their horses. Families who used to depend on horses maybe haven't seen one up close in generations. People interested in horses don't have that easy access to generations' horsemanship experience. NH fills a need in many a modern lifestyle. Thank god for marketing?


Love this post.


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## Kyribohne

HappyHoofPrints said:


> I studied Parelli and Dennis Reis after sudying John Lyons for years. Then! I found Clinton Anderson to help me Re-Train 2 half Arabs and start my 2 new Arabian babies. Down UnderHorsemanship is the only trainer for me now. Never looked back!


I've heard about Down Under Horsemanship before... What is the special thing about this method?


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## Wanstrom Horses

Nothing.. Just another marketing ploy clinician trainer. I don't like CA. Especially his ground training methods...


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## AllieJ333

Some of his methods I agree with, others I don't.


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## 6gun Kid

I realize this is an old post, but I work nights and I get bored so I read all 40 pages and 391 posts and this is my opinion. Pate Parelli is a GENIUS....at marketing. He is brilliant as the ringmaster of the circus he has created. Cant't ride for doodly squat,But as far as my personal feeing towards PP & LP......I love 'em! We,well the wife makes a pile of money fixing NPH trained horses.


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## 6gun Kid

Also FWIW she is a dressage and eventing trainer


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## GallopingGuitarist

I use the '7 games' when working with a new horse. But that is just what I call them because I first learned them from the Parelli stuff. But yeah, I want my horse so that I can rub them all over, I can moved them around with pressure (physical or other wise), (not really into yo-yo game), I can lunge a horse, I can get it to side pass, and 'squeeze' through stuff. The most I learned from PP is from an old (mid nineties) VHS tape on trailer loading (it was taped in AU). I have used his methods from that tape for a few years and have trained many horses how to load and unload calmly and safely. 
CA.. I watched one of his demonstrations with his well trained horse. I was disgusted! His horse was unhappy the whole time and he was not very considerate of the horse in my opinion. 

I have used a few of Peter Campbell's training methods. So far I like them. But I learned more from my horses bucking me off and watching the PFRA riders handle and train horses than I ever learned from TV.


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## tinyliny

I don't follow either trainer. I can totally agree with some of those who have seen a lot of horses ruined by PP methods. I've seen 'em too.

I find that CA is often the more popular and respected trainer, of these two. Parelli is often "dissed" for being too soft, too emotion based, too "woo-woo".
Clinton Anderson is looked up to being a tough, no nonsense guy, which is more admirable in our culture. However, I agree with Wanstrom and GallopingGuitarist in that CA is overly aggressive, has very little real feel for a horse and often creates an unhappy horse who obeys unhappily.


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## amberly

I do his methods. They work really well with my horses and that is how we calmed them down too. When we got Amber, every time anyone would go in the pasture, Amber would freak out. Now, with Parelli, we learned what we were doing wrong and how to Help Amber become less crazy. haha!
But I do Parelli and Buck Brannaman.


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## Dustbunny

I'm not a PP fan...but I have picked up bits and pieces from others that have helped me a great deal. I'm thankful for the information out there.


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## Super Nova

I looked into the Parelli method when I first started getting youngsters.....its too mechanical for me......not enough room for the horse or the owner to think for themselves and problem solve their way out of a situation......I don't want a horse that is programed.....I want a horse that can think for himself and make the proper choice.

My favorite trainer is Will Clinging.

http://willclinging.ca/

Super Nova


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## nikyplushbreyer

you guys are all fftopic:
but i am not mad lol


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## nikyplushbreyer

srry posted on the wrong thread


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## Fulford15

I don't really agree with the riding aspect of it, mind you I haven't really cared enough to look into at. 

But I really do enjoy the Parelli Games, they have really helped with abused/traumatized horses I have used it with to rebuild trust and even create a stronger bond. I recommend them for sure, I have even used them just on some horses that just need to get the idea of "your space".

A lady I used to ride with lent the Parelli Games books & DVD's to me, again, really recommend them!


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## May

I really don't like Parelli horsemanship. I'm not going to say it is stupid, and I could not care less about the prices on tack or dvds.  I really do not want to offend anyone, and I'm not out to trash Parelli horsemanship. With that said; I truly believe Parelli horsemanship is one of the worst things that has happened to the horse industry.

In my opinion Parelli sells training that people like, and I believe this is why he is so popular. He sells and teaches ideas that people want to believe in, and that sound nice and pleasant.

Almost every time I watch videos of him; I see the horse telling a very different story than he claims (and I'm sure believes) the horse is telling. When he says "now this horse is happy", I'm not usually sure that is the case. I've seen his happy horses look both sour, annoyed, disrespectful, bored, and so on. I've seen him state that "this horse is scared", when the horse is in fact just resistant to do something. 

Then there is too much focus on the methods or games; and way too little focus on body language and actual psychology; of teaching people what to look for. Why? I believe because he does not know true horsemanship. Yes, I said it! :lol: Friendship and love is not key; it's not even important to the horse. 
*Parelli horsemanship has made the horse into something it is not*, and there is a reason why the big names in the show ring does not often come from a background of Parelli training. Big trainers and succesful riders knows that though elements and certain methods of Parelli training works; the concept or the philosophy he is teaching; does not really work that well. And this is because it falls short; horse psychology is in reality quite different from what he teaches, with a lot more aspects. I have noticed this in the answers he and Linda gives to people sending in questions as well. They just do not have a good understanding of how a horse's mind really work, and their answers and advice could often and *does *often result in dangerous horses and hospitalized riders. 

This video is of Pat and Linda giving advice on the trail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haqE_2hLm1g 
Do anyone else see resistance, disrepect, lack of control, and timely cutting? Because that is what I see, and I was not impressed when I first saw this video.

Some say Parelli teaches riders to bond with their horse; to create friendship, trust and love. It does sound pleasant, but unfortunately I just don't think it is a part of reality. Remember; familiarity is not the same as friendship. Trust is more than not being afraid. As in the video above; if the horse trusted Linda and her judgement; would it not go down the dike with her on top? 
And love? Where does love come into the horse's natural behavior? 

There is a lot more to say on this subject, I've barely scratched the surface. Hope I didn't offend anyone.


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