# Liberty Riding *** Rant!!



## Crescent (May 2, 2012)

everyone I know right now is raving over "Liberty" riding! What I see in liberty is people (not everyone, but most) riding bareback and bridleless with NO helmets usually!! Its nice to know they trust their horses but horses have a mind of their own. The other day I read a post where the girl was leading a trail ride filled with inexperienced riders with no tack on. The girls horse bolted back to the barn and she had no way to stop the horse fortunately one of the more experienced guys horse was a cutting horse and the guy knew what he was doing and herded the horse into a pasture where he got the girls horse under control! They day after she posted that she would never ride him without a bridle again. then the next day she posted that she would never ride him with tack again! then she proceeded to sell her bridle! I think that you don't need to use your reins but why not just have the bridle on in case of emergency? does anyone else feel the same about liberty?


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

The ONLY "Liberty Training" I ascribe to is the precursor to loose lunging, where you trained the horse and yourself to communicate with your body and a whip, as an extension of your arm and body.
I dislike this fad, just like I dislike the bitless bridle. People who do this and fail have NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO idea the countless thousands of hours of training it takes a horse to be rideable without the tack we depend upon to stay on and maintain control.
The only time I ever rode my finished lesson (my riding academy) horses was when I decided to leave my campsite to the trailer in the parking lot. I decided that my older QH, "Ro Go Bar" (1982-2009, RIP) didn't need a bridle for this trip, so I rode him there and back again with just a halter and lead. I had no trouble, but I also didn't think it was the best way to maintain his training, so I never repeated it. I was just proud as punch that he had become that reliable bc when I bought him as a 7yo he was green and spooky. By the time he was a 15yo, you could really trust him, but he had so many hours under saddle in lessons and at events and on family vacations that I lost track. He was truly a finished horse and an excellent babysitter bc he was safe, slow and lazy, AND 15'3hh, big enough for anybody to ride.
I think these people are playing with fire, and don't have ANY IDEA of how their horses can hurt or kill them. =/


----------



## srcosticov (Aug 14, 2013)

Corporal said:


> People who do this and fail have NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO idea the countless thousands of hours of training it takes a horse to be rideable without the tack we depend upon to stay on and maintain control.
> I think these people are playing with fire, and don't have ANY IDEA of how their horses can hurt or kill them. =/


I agree with this 100%.

I was prepping my BLM mustang so i would be able to show at Mustang Millions doing a "Liberty" routine and I would have been fine doing it had a not pulled from the competition, but I strongly advise against novice horse owners/people from doing this for any reason.

Liberty riding is intense and not only requires a strong understanding and mutual respect of horse/rider, but it requires a handful of specific cues that are taught in addition to your normal cues (like a solid, tackless, emergency stop).

I am not against the idea of liberty riding and I am all for people striving to have that solid ability as a horse/rider team, but I am against people thinking that this is easy to attain or is for everyone.

All of that being said, I really enjoy liberty riding when done right.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think that people who take pointless stupid risks like the example given by the OP set a bad example for all the people who do ride like this in a controlled safe area


----------



## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

I don't necessarily have a problem with it. If you want to do that with your horse it's your risk, your horse, and your life. To lead a trail ride or be responsible for other people then no I would say use better judgement and at least use a bridle or a halter of some sort. I ride my mare bareback and in a halter and leadrope. Then again, I trust her enough to do so. If I would ever try this 'liberty riding' I would make sure I was in an enclosed area with a helmet on. I'm sorry to take the rainbows and butterflies out of horses but very few people have that special connection to their horse. I do almost everything on my mare bareback with a halter and leadrope (usually because I'm too lazy to go about tacking up and just ride her up from the field) and I don't have a problem, but I'm not naive enough to think that I can take the halter off and expect her to go no problem, that takes years of training for both horse and rider. There's nothing wrong with trying it for giggles or trying it just for fun so long as it's a safe enviornment for your horse and you're not going to directly affect other riders in case of an accident. You can get killed just as easily sitting in a saddle or sitting bareback on a horse; they outweigh us and are going to win any fight they pick. So long as the rider uses good judgement in timing and horse choice I say what the heck, doesn't hurt to switch it up. Personally if I did it (even just for giggles) I would have a halter or something on that I could control my horse with in case of an emergency.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I think liberty riding in an arena is COMPLETELY different than liberty riding on a trail. 

Horses are prey animals. If they even THINK something is going to eat them, the majority of them, regardless of miles on them or how well-trained they are, will bolt. Why would you put yourself in the position that you have zero control over your horse if it gets spooked? "But we have such an amazing bond! Pookie would never hurt me!" BS. If "Pookie" thinks whatever is out there is going to eat him, the last thing he's going to be worried about is you. 

I've trail ridden with many well-trained, "dead broke" horses. Some of them were older polo ponies, some were career dude string horses, and others were retired ranch horses. All were older (10+). All of them had enough training that most people would figure they'd be rideable on te trail bareback with just a halter. I've also seen these horses have some of the biggest blow-ups I've ever seen while out on the trail with novice riders. I've seen a dead-head, dead broke ranch horse try to bolt through a barbed wire fence on the side of the road because a dump truck drove by. I've also seen a dead broke, lazy polo pony, who was used as a dude string horse in the off-season, freak out when weeds brushed her belly and she swore it was gonna eat her. The point is, even with tack it was difficult for the riders to control these horses that were in "flight" mode. If they had been liberty riding, either the riders would have ended up seriously injured, or they would have ended up dead.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

Its fun to play around with in an area, as a demonstration of how a horse works off leg and seat. End of story.

Its not the mark of a good trainer, or evidence of a great horse. Nor is it in any way evidence of a "bond" 

I don't know if this is becoming so popular from the notion many people still cling to about the "magical bond" that has been popularized by the king of the wind, black stallion, etc, or what. Its annoying, misleading to the uneducated and fool hardy.

Horses have bad days. Things scare them. Some how being on a horse bare back and bridle less out on a trail ride when a bear decides to say hello doesn't sound great. Nor would a situation I was in last year, when a familiar trail was unexpectedly colonized by ground dwelling wasps. We rode over them, and my mare ended up with 20-30 stings on her belly. I rode it out, but my horse that never bucks or bolts, bucked and bolted.


----------



## srcosticov (Aug 14, 2013)

BlueSpark said:


> Its fun to play around with in an area, as a demonstration of how a horse works off leg and seat. End of story.
> 
> Its not the mark of a good trainer, or evidence of a great horse. Nor is it in any way evidence of a "bond"


I have to say that Liberty Riding should NEVER be done outside of an arena, ever. To try and attempt that sort of thing on the trail or in the open is careless and stupid - period.

I do feel, however, that Liberty Riding is a way for a trainer to showcase the ability of the horse and the horse's response to cues. It is NOT a way to showcase a fairy tale bond between horse an rider but I feel it is a good way to showcase the ability of a horse/rider team in a professional showcase.

That being said, I still think it isn't something for novice riders to do and I do believe it is dangerous to try and attempt it without training experience.


----------



## Fulford15 (Oct 17, 2012)

BlueSpark said:


> I don't know if this is becoming so popular from the notion many people still cling to about the "magical bond" that has been popularized by the king of the wind, black stallion, etc, or what. Its annoying, misleading to the uneducated and fool hardy.


100% agree... There is a "trainer" (or they like to call theirself that) that is all about the liberty training. Personally, I don't care for it. I was watching them ride one day, no helmet, proper attire, etc and all that was running through my mind was "how dangerous". Others around me seemed to bow down to this person as if they were some sort of god and swooned over "how magical it is". I have come to discover this trainer rides all of the horses under her training like this, young and old, I guess the trainer got hurt recently and now can not ride.


----------



## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

I know. I have absolutely ZILCH tolerance for that faffing around. "Oh its better for the horse... Bridles and saddles are unnatural". 
Whatever. 
I honestly can't stand it. For me its simple, comfortable tack, with the odd training aid, like the bungee if needed. Apart from that, not much else  
But none of this: "I'm a rebel, lets ride untrained horses out without bridles and saddles, and lets not have helmets"


----------



## EdmontonHorseGal (Jun 2, 2013)

going out on the trail without anything to control the horse should it spook, bolt, etc??? epically stupid in my books! taking along greenhorns on horses in the same manner? who do i give the Darwin award to???

riding tack-less in a round pen or arena where there is some measure of control (the fence or wall) is ok if you trust your horse and both horse and rider have the level of training necessary to do such things.

my lease horse i will ride in the arena bareback with a halter and lead looped and tied for reins. i will ride him at liberty with no tack in the round pen only. i will drop my reins when he is saddled and we are doing trot work in the arena because i trust him to keep on trotting and stay on the rail unless i tell him otherwise. i have the saddle to grab on to just in case something should happen. i never drop my reins or the lead fully when riding bareback - my balance isn't that good yet if when given his head should he decide he is Super Lateral Pony and sidepass without warning! lol. (which he hasn't done yet, but there is always the chance he could)


----------



## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I agree liberty work on a trail with other horses is asking to have your head cleaved in. I think liberty work has its merits in the right hands and the right environment. Its very showy and looks great. I think the idea of training for liberty work is a bit convoluted. If you and your horse have a great bond (relationship, respect, whatever you want to call it) than you respond to one another regardless of tools. That said, you should be able to train a horse with saddle and bridle and then remove those tools and still have a horse respond. Which means that you should just be training for a good bond and not for liberty work. 

In the wrong hands liberty work is asking for trouble and a bad horse. The folks who do liberty work from the ground and interpret themselves as having a great bond with their horse and "playing". The horse is actually behaving in an aggressive manner or dangerous (ie bucking, rearing etc). The idea that under saddle the horse is well behaved just as long as you are doing what the horse wants is another problem with liberty work. You can easily have the illusion of control because you don't have a way to correct a disrespectful action and many riders are not strong enough to stay on during outright disobedience.


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

The ONLY TIME I used a halter out of the arena, Is when my friend and I trailred out and like a doofus I forgot my bridle -_-'. My mare did fantastic in just a web halter, will I do it again? NO! That mare has a history of "The trailer/barn is that way and im hungry, bye!". Will I ride without a bit? NO! That same mare, who I can ride with just a halter in the arena, tried to run out into traffic with a bit-less bridle. I wont ride bareback out of the arena (unless someone had a hold of her and we are walking from one property to the next). My mare can be ridden by traffic all day long and not spook, cross flowing rivers, jumping ditches etc. But god forbid she sees an abnormality on the sidewalk or pavement. And puddles are a no no unless I walk through them first. Can I ride this horse bareback and bridle less in the arena, yes, should I probably not. Would I tell others to ride without tack (expeshaly that horse)? Heck no!

And sometimes what happens on the trail has nothing to do with your horse. My friend was riding her dead broke horse bareback on the trails by where I board (long before I was there). She was talking to someone and a loose horse galloped and plowed right into her and her horse. She fell and her horse decided he was done and going home. She said if she had a saddle he would not have run away like that and she would not have fallen off.


Again, NO riding without tack out of the arena! (and this is coming from someone who hates arena riding XD)


----------



## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Riding in a halter, like I ride in a rope halter-is NOT the same as at liberty. Honestly-I think too many folks watched Stacy Westfalls famous bareback, bridless routine a few years ago and think they can all do it. Fairy tales and butterfly farts. NO. SHe is a professional, whose DH is also a professional trainer.


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Overall, I think that too many people who aren't educated on this type of riding try to do it without any sort of training or supervision. It's an easy way to get hurt, particularly outside of the arena.


----------



## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

I will ride bridleless in the arena here and there. Never would I do so outside in the open trails. Bitless yes, but bridleless? No.

Its not that I don't trust my horse, its if my horse is in a situation where I need to be able to guide her fully controlled. For example, trying to get away from a bear/cougar. Your horse isn't going to look where its going, your horse is going to be RUNNING for its life. So you need to be able to fully guide the horse out. Or if your horse spooks and runs into a group of people. I'm sure those people will think your liberty riding is pretty cool, when you're running into a crowd of unsuspecting bystanders while trying to gain control of your horse.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

BlueSpark said:


> Its fun to play around with in an area, as a demonstration of how a horse works off leg and seat. End of story.
> 
> Its not the mark of a good trainer, or evidence of a great horse. Nor is it in any way evidence of a "bond"
> 
> ...


We had a similar situation a few years ago. In a pasture that I've been riding for 20 years, there was suddenly a bumblebee nest in an area of high grass. We were doing close cattle work, trying to get some cattle sorted off from others, when my Dad rode over the top of the nest and out came the bees. They started dive-bombing us and we all (horses included) got stung at least once each. My step-mom had a bee fly down in her horse's ear. Thankfully, because of his inherent nature, he didn't have a complete meltdown but he darn well could have because that's not exactly something that you can prepare for. Dad and I were both on horses that had panic attacks and were pitching and trying to bolt.

As for liberty, it has it's place to showcase a well trained horse in a controlled area. Even on my best trained horse, I wouldn't dare take him out without something on his head. It's not that I don't trust him, but I know that horses are naturally flighty critters and if something were to happen, I like knowing that I can get control of him. Have there been entire rides where I left the reins draped over the saddle horn or laying on his neck? Yeppers, but they were still there had I needed them.

About as close as I ever come to riding at liberty is bringing up a horse from the pasture bareback with nothing but a string around his neck. If he chose to (or felt he needed to) take off, I couldn't stop him, but I'm in a relatively controlled environment and they have training that's good enough that they'll listen to my seat and that string in all but the most extreme circumstances.

Just because a person _can_ do something doesn't mean it's something wise to do. The example the OP posted shows exactly that. The rider was more concerned with "ZOMG, look at how cooool I am that I can ride without tack" than the fact that she was responsible for taking care of the novice riders following her.

I've had to play impromptu pick-up man in the middle of a pasture for folks with bolting or bucking horses. Thankfully, they all had actual tack where all I really had to do was get close enough to dally up a rein, but I wouldn't have even attempted it if my horses hadn't been in full tack.


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I was not comparing it to just riding in a halter, more of lack of proper tack. And I ride in a rope halter in the ARENA. If we are on trails its always a bit. 

If you want to ride bareback and bridle-less be my guest, just don't drag uneducated people into it and keep it in a safe environment (and by safe I mean for other people and the horse. If you want to do stupid stuff, do it in a place where the horse wont get hurt running loose).


----------



## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

Totally agree with Smrobs. 

A thing to add out there is that a lot of people, oh whats the word...Declassify(?) horses. They don't treat the horse like a horse but rather something that is programmed not to spook, buck, bolt, rear, etc. People need to remember that horses are horses. Meaning they're going to naturally spook, buck, bolt, etc. You CAN'T train a horse NOT to buck/rear/spook; you can train a horse that bucking/rearing/bolting is bad and isn't something that should be done again (if that makes sense). You can desensitize a horse to everything and everything, but he will still occasionally spook here-and-there. You can never train a horse to not do something it was naturally built to do....That is, what I feel, what a lot of liberty riders forget.


----------



## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

I think this kind of thing is a load of nonsense. Most of the people who think it’s the greatest thing ever have a mistaken view of what exactly horses are, how people relate to them, and what they are capable of. Aside from the extremely experienced people who can do this sort of stuff to show of how well they have trained a horse, get the armatures who get all preachy about “bonding” with their horses, the ones who think that tack is “unnatural”, and let’s see how many of them could cut a steer with no bridle or saddle. As soon as I hear about this kind of stuff, far from thinking “wow, you are awesome at riding a horse” all I can think is “you have little to no idea about what you are getting yourself into”.


----------



## Cherrij (Jan 30, 2013)

for one, the situation described was extremely stupid. 
for 2, someone said "tack is unnatural", yeees, so it is, and so is riding, and so are helmets.. we weren't born with hard hats on our heads  So let the "naturalist" liberty folks crack their heads open. Hospitals aren't natural either 
As a friend of mine jokes... "Naturalists don't shave, or even know what soap is... " Then again, that is just one attitude.

Yes, Liberty work is pretty for the eyes.. Dressage at liberty, jumping at liberty, that western video.; wooow... also all those many trainers like Honza Blaha and what not.. wow, all riding bridleless.. However, where are the helmets, and how many of us do have a horse who listens that well?

My babies love me, they come to me, they follow me. but I refuse to get on without a saddle or a bridle. My previous horse I used to ride bareback with a bridle or a halter. Another horse I worked with I refused to ride bareback (also cuz of her uneven gaits) but I did gallop full speed with a fluffy halter, and another time the Dr. Cook bridle, bitless. And imagine, where some people cannot ask that mare to stand still, I could stop her with a fluffy halter, from a full blown gallop, without hanging in the reigns for my life... however, that we did at home... trails - bit, bridle, sadle, HELMET! 

All those people who claim that tack is unnatural and harmful, have never seen it be used properly. And a lot of people have been ruined, so to say, their minds damaged by listening to this kind of stuff. So then you hear "aaaaaw, poor horse, sports are horrible, they have such horrible bits, and spurs and what not.. " Somehow the same poor horse ridden with a complex bit and spurs can jump Grand Prix level for a few years and win... Whilst their backyard pony ridden in a halter continues to run head up with a hollowed back...........

ok.. rant over.


----------



## thorson (Aug 15, 2013)

i have no desire to liberty ride. you cant really controle there actions. accidents happen. 
one time i was just sitting on my old mare in the pasture. nothing on her because i was just sitting on her. and she bumped the electric fence and jumped. i fell right off. she came up to me like she was sorry and didnt mean it. but thats how quick things can happen even in the best of horses.


----------



## iRide Ponies (Aug 10, 2012)

As long as the only person you can possibly hurt is yourself, I am totally okay with it.

So, yes to liberty riding in an arena.

No to liberty riding down the beach with 3 riderless, tackless horses cantering behind who then go and chase down innocent riders to their own ponies

(Had that last one happen to me, I beat off a crazy young colt with a dressage whip while the other (tackless) rider cantered on past, whistling.)


----------



## Gossip (Sep 26, 2011)

it's true so many people don't practice liberty correctly or even understand. don't hate on liberty itself but the people who lack common sense, which can be said for anything you do with horses. I always wear proper attire such as a helmet and boots, and i don't just randomly hop on my horses and expect them to ride around tackless. As for riding on the trails tackless, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. If a horse spooks terribly all they are thinking is to run.There will be no stopping them even with a bridle, or at least it would be very hard, so the only thing you can do is hang on.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I've watched a few top-notch dressage horses perform with only the neck rope. They put on a nice show but there's something missing - the finesse of a highly trained horse in a double bridle. What a lot of more novice riders don't realize is that the dressage riders hands barely move. This enables the horse to back away from the contact a little so it's more comfortable. I have felt this many times and the horse becomes light as a feather.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Saddlebag said:


> I've watched a few top-notch dressage horses perform with only the neck rope. They put on a nice show but there's something missing - the finesse of a highly trained horse in a double bridle. What a lot of more novice riders don't realize is that the dressage riders hands barely move. This enables the horse to back away from the contact a little so it's more comfortable. I have felt this many times and the horse becomes light as a feather.


You can take this even one step further, on a well trained western horse, performing on a total loose rein
It is this response to a bit first,ie finesse, that then allows people like Stacy Wesfall , to drop that bridle completely.
That liberty riding, is a demo of degree of training, but even Stacy would not recommend a scenario as seen in the Black Stallion, with Alex galloping completely at liberty along a beach, on a horse only he can ride.
It is sort of, something you do to show degree of training or ability, as in a kid, riding his bike and shouting, 'look Ma, no hands'
It does not mean that it is therefore practical good horse sense or even a goal for every rider and horse to achieve, unless you wish to be part of Cavalia!


----------



## Chicalia (Nov 5, 2013)

franknbeans said:


> Riding in a halter, like I ride in a rope halter-is NOT the same as at liberty. Honestly-I think too many folks watched Stacy Westfalls famous bareback, bridless routine a few years ago and think they can all do it. Fairy tales and butterfly farts. NO. SHe is a professional, whose DH is also a professional trainer.


Completely agreed! She has stated herself that she put 1,000 hours of training into that horse to get it to where it was for that famous ride. In addition, she doesn't ride all of her horses with the goal of being bareback/bridleless because not all of them are cut out for it. If she can get a horse to bareback/bridleless, that isn't the only way she rides it, either; she continues to ride in a saddle with very loose reins so that she can make corrections and maintain the training level.


----------



## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

I saw this thread and felt a little embarrassed at myself, and then giggled because I can empathize with the folks that have done liberty and had it blow up in their faces. 
I had one gelding I rode who I can and could ride in a neck ring w/t/c and not just laps around the arena. He also loved to jump so If i didn't feel like putting the neck ring on I could set up a low grid and he would faithfully put himself through without my direction. However I would not consider him liberty trained as I took it up as one of those brilliant teenage genius things where with very little preparation one does something extremely stupid and gets away with it.
I did not realize how stupid it was till later when I tried it with a different horse- a mare who was extremely inconsistent mood-wise, occasionally psychotic under saddle, with a tendency to buck, rear and bolt- in that order under three seconds. 

So I put my neck ring on this horse and swing up. Alright. She just stands there. I give her a little nudge and she- a bit confused as to why she's naked takes a few steps forward. Having figured out I haven't put any useful tack on her, she tries a few buck steps and I push her forward, This is the moment she figures the true nature of our situation and picks up a canter that quickly turns into a bolt and proceeds to run laps around the arena at dead gallop with no inclination of ever stopping. After a few minutes I end up doing a flying dismount and she slams to a stop beside me. Luckily the only casualty was my pride. However I think i am better off without it.


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi All!

The American Indians rode w/o tack except for maybe a blanket and a neck string. Kicked a lot of ****** bootie doing it too. I suspect it takes considerably more "relationship" than most modern equestrians have time for, tho.

But sure; ride buck-naked if ya want, why would I care? Fall off and bust your A, "Evolution in Action" I say.

That said, I am still in awe of Stacy Westfall.

ByeBye! Steve

PS: I can ride George bareback with a neck string. We mostly stick with Georgies agenda tho, and it's real easy to fall off. Don't _even_ ask me how I know


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

george the mule said:


> Hi All!
> 
> The American Indians rode w/o tack except for maybe a blanket and a neck string. Kicked a lot of ****** bootie doing it too. I suspect it takes considerably more "relationship" than most modern equestrians have time for, tho.
> 
> ...


Those Indians rode with a rawhide thong in the mouth. Ever feel what a thin piece of rawhide feels like, esp once it has gotten wet, and dried un evenly?
Sure, those Indians became great riders-had to, for war, hunting etc, but read some of the ways that they broke horses ,and one would not say that they all had any great empathy or kindness towards horses

Ever see some of those Indian saddles, used by some tribes? They make even that saw buck pack saddle look kinder!
Sure, Stacy rode tackless, but first she had that horse very broke to traditional tack, esp a bridle.
I got to watch her in person at some clinics at the Mane Event.
She explained as to how she was able to ride tackless. Riding with a neck rope is not in the same league, as any horse well broke to the indirect rein, can be ridden that way. I often rode horses out of the pasture that way.
Craig Johnson has a great reining video, riding with a neck rope.
Anyway, Stacey used the stop, to illustrate her training basics for those tackless demos ( you will note, she kept her spurs, and probably used them a bit harder then usual, just watching the horse's tail!
She gets the horse to stop by each cue by itself, that she used together, in a regular reining ride
Thus the horse learns to stop, just by the verbal command 'whoa'
Just to stop , using the bit and reins
To stop, just using body position and legs
Thus, when she does that tackless reining demo, she still has two of the three cues left, that she uses together in a regular reining run

The point being, there are many professional horse people that are probably way better riders, have more finesse on their horses, and could well ride them with a neck rope, and some do, for demos, but don't do so as aregualr aprt of their riding program, because the entire point, is, well, pointless!
A well fitting saddle is way easier on a horse, then a rider sitting directly on his spine, in a concentrated area


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

george the mule said:


> Hi All!
> 
> The American Indians rode w/o tack except for maybe a blanket and a neck string. Kicked a lot of ****** bootie doing it too...


Not really. Just because the bits were rawhide doesn't mean they were not effective - or harsh. Breaking methods were violent. Typical Indian ponies WERE ponies, about 13 hands. I recommend "A History of Horsemanship", around page 220 for a discussion on tack and training by the Plains Indians. Disney had it wrong...





























BTW, I have a 13.0 hand mustang. Riding him, even if he gets upset, is a whole different ballgame from riding my 15.2 mare.


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

lostastirrup said:


> I saw this thread and felt a little embarrassed at myself, and then giggled because I can empathize with the folks that have done liberty and had it blow up in their faces.
> I had one gelding I rode who I can and could ride in a neck ring w/t/c and not just laps around the arena. He also loved to jump so If i didn't feel like putting the neck ring on I could set up a low grid and he would faithfully put himself through without my direction. However I would not consider him liberty trained as I took it up as one of those brilliant teenage genius things where with very little preparation one does something extremely stupid and gets away with it.
> I did not realize how stupid it was till later when I tried it with a different horse- a mare who was extremely inconsistent mood-wise, occasionally psychotic under saddle, with a tendency to buck, rear and bolt- in that order under three seconds.
> 
> So I put my neck ring on this horse and swing up. Alright. She just stands there. I give her a little nudge and she- a bit confused as to why she's naked takes a few steps forward. Having figured out I haven't put any useful tack on her, she tries a few buck steps and I push her forward, This is the moment she figures the true nature of our situation and picks up a canter that quickly turns into a bolt and proceeds to run laps around the arena at dead gallop with no inclination of ever stopping. After a few minutes I end up doing a flying dismount and she slams to a stop beside me. Luckily the only casualty was my pride. However I think i am better off without it.


I love the last two sentences.

True words for all of us to abide by.


----------



## ojzab (Aug 6, 2014)

bsms said:


> Not really. Just because the bits were rawhide doesn't mean they were not effective - or harsh. Breaking methods were violent. Typical Indian ponies WERE ponies, about 13 hands. I recommend "A History of Horsemanship", around page 220 for a discussion on tack and training by the Plains Indians. Disney had it wrong..
> 
> 
> BTW, I have a 13.0 hand mustang. Riding him, even if he gets upset, is a whole different ballgame from riding my 15.2 mare.


Wouldn't a book published in the 1970s have some bias against the Indian, almost by definition? I'd love to find out unbiased information about how they really rode and treated their horses. If you believe the book has no bias, please share why you think so. How does one filter between political correctness / Disney / bias of the days past?


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

ojzab said:


> Wouldn't a book published in the 1970s have some bias against the Indian, almost by definition? I'd love to find out unbiased information about how they really rode and treated their horses. If you believe the book has no bias, please share why you think so. How does one filter between political correctness / Disney / bias of the days past?


No. We KNOW how horses were treated, from people who lived with the Indians for years - and from the various tribes themselves. And the idea that all whites were/are biased against reds is silly. I've read too many accounts by professional soldiers in the 1800s who admired their opponents. We have MANY accounts of the way Indians rode and trained horses, and they are quite consistent. People didn't make it up, or draw imaginary rope bits into the mouths of the horses.

As a general rule, the closer you live to nature, the less sentimental you are about it. Nature has a way of beating the unicorn farts clean out of a person. The treatment Cheneyix-Trench noted is how most people treat horses when they themselves are on the edge of survival.

There was a time when this was the norm on a ranch:










It isn't how we do it today, and even then they understood they were rushing things. They knew full well that they would get a better mount if more time was taken...but there wasn't much time to take.

Also notice the SIZE of the horse. Men back then averaged 5'7" (based on WW1 induction records).


----------



## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

All I am going to say is don't show up on any trailride I lead, manage, or sponsor....you won't be allowed, even if you are Stacy Westfall. As someone who regularly trail rides in large groups, it is all about minmizing variables. Tackless horse= huge variable.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I do ride one of my horses tackless.

It isn’t a badge of courage, riding expertise or bragging rights as it is something I do in part, to shake up the routine with an older horse who is physically limited in what he can do. As a pair we do ride intuitively with one another and it is an enjoyable new challenge for us in the arena. 

On his good days, he often offers to lope and we tack up with a saddle and a 4 knot rope halter. On days where he is stiff, I hop on tackless, we walk and if he is up to it after 15 minutes, some short trots, just to get the physical and mental blood flowing.

It keeps our medically necessitated rides from boring the snot out of this once vibrant, well trained ranch horse. 

I would not however, think of doing this out on the trail. Could we? Probably. If something went wrong and he was hurt, I would never forgive myself.


----------



## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

I have "ridden" tackless in an enclosed arena before. And I put ridden in quotes because really the horse just walked about doing his own thing, ignoring the 80lbs on his back (I was young).
I respect liberty when done right and as an exhibition. It is neat to watch. But not practical. Taking a group of green riders on a trail ride while you have no means of control is utterly irresponsible and asking for a disaster.

Regarding the First Nation riders and trainers, I don't think it is fair to group them all in one category. We have records of some tribes being very brutal and harsh in their training. I have heard tales from other tribes who have a very soft way and claim they always have had a soft feel when breaking colts. There were hundreds of autonomous tribes with their own cultures and values, and certainly they all saw the horse differently and came up with their own methods. Even person to person those techniques probably changed.


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi All!

Correction: Amerinds undoubtedly started out by eating their captured/feral horses. Once their appetite was satisfied, they initially rode the "leftovers" with a rawhide strap serving as a bit/bridle, and upgraded their tack as opportunity presented.

The point is that they accomplished much with very little; no Parelli, no Clinton Anderson, no Dover Saddlery, not even a "Horse Forum" to teach them the PC way to go about things 

I would like to offer a differing viewpoint on "training", tho.

Someone earlier was commenting on Ms. Westfall's "training" to get her horse to do a sliding stop sans tack. I would imagine that her horse already knew how to perform a sliding stop, probably learned it at a couple weeks of age. Likewise with a walk/trot/canter/gallop/pirouette/piaffe, what have you.

So what exactly is this "training" thing? It is the development of a common language between you and your horse, a set of mutually understood "expressions" which enable you to "ask" your horse to perform various movements that he presumably already knows how to do. As such, and as Mr. Horse lacks a spoken language, these "expressions" could be most anything. Mankind's long dependence on The Horse has evolved a set (or several sets) of "expressions", cues if you will, that are generally accepted as "right", but that certainly doesn't grant them exclusivity.

I would argue that the extent to which you share a common language pretty much defines your "relationship" with the animal, and I see no reason why that language has to include a saddle, spurs, bit, or bridle. Actually, they are aids for the human side of the equation, not the equine. (With the exception of a saddle which properly fits the equine's back. But that is a different topic entirely.) If you can mentally communicate with your mount (ala Avatar), awesome; wish I could. Beyond that, I try to make do with the minimum possible, and for me that equates to a saddle and bridle. Because _I_ lack the skill to do without them, not because my equine "needs" them.

Arrogant is he who claims "I can't do it, so it must be impossible.", but that seems to be a pretty solid thread running thru the equestrian community, as well as most other human endeavors, alas.

My $.02 Steve


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

horses are very forgiving creatures, and one can train them purely out of determination, as I certainly did, when only 13 years old.
No TV, let alone any training resources, no parents that were even horsey.
Yup, my step dad used horses as a tool, as many people did in the past, but he certainly was not a horseman.
Those draft mares foundered every year-at the time, i had no idea why they got so sore, turned out in the corn field after harvest. I thought one trimmed horse's feet with a chisel and hammer, as that is what my step dad did to those foundered horses, that then were very sore, yet worked in those fields
Anyway, without any guidance, I trained a draft filly, born toone of those mares to both ride and drive
I also rode that spoiled Anglo Arabian stallion that my mis guided step dad bought me. Again, no trainer, guidance or knowledge, but thaT horse did make me a pretty good rider!
Went to college, my horse got sold. Moved out west, working as lab tech in Calgary, and was talked into buying a'green broke two year old, by a fellow tech I worked with. Didn't even know what green broke meant. Drove out after work, and watched an old cowbody crawl on this horse as he crouched in a corner, in a large indoor pen,and bought him for $200. 
She told me to use a 'cowboy snaffle on him ( you know, a curb with long shanks and a broken mouth piece. Unfortunately, no one told me that I needed to use a curb strap!
I rode that green broke two year old, even in that small town of Black Diamond, where he was boarded. He would buck me off very so often, but I just climbed back on.
Eventually, I did learn that I needed a curb strap, rode that horse everywhere, including into Calgary and in the Stampede Parade.
What is my point? Horses were trained way before clinics, training mannuals, etc, and that in the glorious past, there were pretty good technical horsemen, purely out of necessity, as they got good at using the horse as any other tool
Even those that had no great affinity towards horses, trained and used them, as it was no different then learning to drive today, use a tractor, etc
8 hour days did wonders for 'work ethics' in horses, and those that did not stand up, did not see chiros, massage therapists, had corrective shoing etc-they were culled
You want to see horses that are still used as tools today, just visit some Amish or go to Cuba
You will see almost every male able to handle a horse and get a job done, just like those Indians 
Forget the romantic notion, that all those horses were owned by people that wanted to have horses in their lives, had great humane training, etc. They got broke because what was required of them, demanded a broke horse
Sure, there were genuine horse lovers in the past, just like now, BUT just becuase everyone had to use a horse as a tool in the past, does not mean that they treated horses kindly, or were above, what I now call, a 'horse mechanic'
You know, a so called trainer, that has his horses win, look great, being shown, but who have blown the minds of those horses
And yes, a rawhide thong is severe. Look at the diameter and run a rough dried thong over your gums, and you might get the picture!
Look at some of the bits used in the past, in the time of the Greeks,who displayed great horsemanship. Those bits had spikes that dug into the outside of the horse's face
Look at some real history book pictures,and see the condition of some of those Indian ponies


----------



## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

One of the reasons I dislike Parelli. Riding in an arena and jumping over picnic tables with no helmet!

I have ridden bareback and bridleless, but I always ride in the arena and with a helmet! I had extensive practice riding bareback and I made sure my horse had the right training. Before ditching the bridle, I made sure I could circle, stop, back and go over jumps with my reins dropped, but available if something should happen.

I certainly don't think it is for most people and I don't think most horses can do that either. My bridless riding horse is now retired. The last few years I started riding bareback in just a halter, as she was arthritic and I didn't see much point in saddling up to ride around at a walk for fifteen minutes.

My current riding horse will never be ridden bridleless. She is not comfortable bareback. Nor does she have the attitude or temperament. She would probably take advantage. She is too easily excited...

My old mare was the exception to the rule. It made her a great lesson horse, as you could put a tiny kid on her and she would be so careful and never take a bad step. Certainly not all horses are like her and I sometimes think she was my once in a lifetime horse. 

A horse that I would feel comfortable riding bridleless is a rare thing. Too many people think any horse can do it.


----------



## Gossip (Sep 26, 2011)

Ive never heard of any liberty instructor/trainer who rode completely tackless all the time. They all seem to ride with a bridle (often bitless) and saddle as well. Yes, liberty isn't practical all the time, but I've never heard a liberty trainer preach that you are meant to be at liberty with your horse every second of the day. Liberty is great to do with your horse after proper training, whenever it is convenient to do so. Meaning no green horses, and no green riders either.


----------



## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

> A horse that I would feel comfortable riding bridleless is a rare thing. Too many people think any horse can do it.


I made that mistake  

The thing that bothers me the most is the helmetlessness of a lot of Nat. Horsemanship. I've heard the explanation is that riding w/o a helmet gives you a healthy respect for the animal...but wouldn't that healthy respect inspire one to i dont know...maybe wear a helmet for their health?


----------



## ducky123 (May 27, 2014)

george the mule said:


> Hi All!
> 
> The American Indians rode w/o tack except for maybe a blanket and a neck string. Kicked a lot of ****** bootie doing it too. I suspect it takes considerably more "relationship" than most modern equestrians have time for, tho.


I remember reading about one method some plains Indians used to gentle a new caught mustang. A bunch of braves would take the horse to the ground and lie on the horse to immobilize him until it quit struggling.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Just because something can be done, does not mean it should be done.
Sure, one can ride a well broke horse, just for fun, without anything, but there is established basic good , safe horsemanship, taught at such root levels as 4H
I AGREE, concerning those Parelli demos, showing tackless jumping, etc. Heck, there was even a picture of him riding a horse into at trailer!
The following of NH trainers like Parelli, are made up mostly of people that have not grown up with horses, thus had no chance to develop what can be called 'horse sense'
These people need basic good horse handling principles, not exhibitionist type of riding
I was giving a young horse clinic for the local light horse. One rider there, was a Dad, riding in a Parelli halter, on a horse intended to be a horse for one of his kids. That horse was all over the place, rooting his nose in the air. I finally had to tell that Dad to get some kind of handle on that horse, or leave, as he was a danger to the rest of the people there
Another example. Friend that i know, were going on a mountain ride. One woman there was riding with a halter. Someone said to her, that maybe she should at least use a snaffle. Her reply was, 'there are better ways of doing things'
Long story short, they came across a herd of elk, her horse bolted and bucked her off, breaking her pelvis. She had to be air lifted out
Now, I'm not saying bits control horses, esp used correctly, but at the same time, there is this romantic notion promoted by many NH people that if you use abit, or a treed saddle, you are being cruel. Thus these same people ride horse in halters that are no where near broke enough to make that safe, because they have been indoctrinated.
Nothing wrong with giving a demo on a well broke horse, in a confined area, but totally wrong to put that concept out there that bits are cruel, so that people on horses that have no business being ridden that way, get hurt, riding that horse who isn't even going correctly in a bridle, with a halter
When a horse is trained correctly, far as response to a bit, the end result, far as physiological conditioning, is no different that a 1000 lb horse thinking he is controlled by a plain halter and lead shank. 
You thus have a tool that gives increased finesse, far as signal, with the horse just carrying that bit, on a loose rein-BUT if you need to disengage those hips, believe me, you will get more done with a bit. It is alot like having brakes, that you might never need, but they sure are nice to have if 'push comes to shove'
If I run into a bear, trail riding , or a herd of elk, I darn well know that I cAN GET MY HORSE TO 'COMEBACK TO ME', A LOT BETTER, riding with a bit.


----------



## Gossip (Sep 26, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Just because something can be done, does not mean it should be done.
> Sure, one can ride a well broke horse, just for fun, without anything, but there is established basic good , safe horsemanship, taught at such root levels as 4H
> I AGREE, concerning those Parelli demos, showing tackless jumping, etc. Heck, there was even a picture of him riding a horse into at trailer!
> The following of NH trainers like Parelli, are made up mostly of people that have not grown up with horses, thus had no chance to develop what can be called 'horse sense'
> ...


I agree with you. People like Parelli try to market an unrealistic image of what a horse and human relationship is like. The liberty instructors I've worked with however, do not think bits are cruel and believe that they have their place in the horse training process. They ride at liberty in an arena, and yes, sometimes on the trail, but never in a situation where they can be a danger to other riders. And they always wear proper, safe attire. They truly believe in training their horses to listen to the finest of aids with and without tack, but they don't have a romantic notion of what working with horses. They understand the dangers and take the proper precautions, for safe and happy horses and riders.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I do think that if someone wants to ride a horse at liberty, on a trail ride, they should ride out alone, not with a group
I don't care how well broke a horse is, liberty riding remains something you do in some kind of confined area, as in a demo .
I know many trail horses that will pack a dude anywhere, as long as they are with buddies. That rider is in reality, more of a passenger, then a rider
I know some pretty good horse people that have spent their life, riding in the mountains, who would not dream of riding there tackless.
Even if your horse is not going to panic ,when running into a bear, or crossing a fast flowing river, or aherd of elk, how the heck are you going to tie on a slicker, saddle bags, a coat, emergency supplies, with no saddle?
I think, my idea of trail riding differs from anyone riding a trail at ;liberty!
It would be interesting to see your instructor, ride a horse at liberty, for a day in the mountains where I ride!


----------



## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I think my liberty rides would look much like a person sitting on a horse while it ate. But of course I would be telling it to stand there & eat.:wink:


----------



## Gossip (Sep 26, 2011)

Well where i live i don't think I'd run into any bears on the trails  Although if I rode where you rode Smilie I probably wouldn't even dreamt of riding tackless there


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

In my youth it was never called Liberty Riding, it was called Insanity!

I learned the risks as a teen. We were catching the ponies out on the Downs, five horses and five of us. As we trekked up the steep hill I was bet that I wouldn't dare to ride one girl's pony down without a halter.
Bets made I agreed on the condition that they promised they wouldn't hit or chase him. They promised and they kept their word, they just chased the other four that took off at a fast canter down the hill. 
The pony I was on watched, anyone with an iota of sense would have jumped off but I didn't!
He reared up, came down and shot off at a gallop taking the shortest steepest route to the bottom. 
He won having cut a corner and weaved his way between the mole hills, down the steepest part. He reached the gate and never stopped. He jumped the gate followed by the other four.
We raced along the road, crossed over on a corner and raced flat out along the track to the stables.

The other had to walk from the field, they never paid their bets saying that I had to stop at the gate to win. What's more they left my bag with my lunch in it so I had to walk out and back! 

We messed around on the ponies in the arena tackless but never out on rides.


----------



## wyld thang (Jul 12, 2014)

I work with horses used in lessons and trails rides. In the arena my goal is to drop the reins and have the horse do what is expected in class (mostly walk/trot) without rein cues, and encourage their sensitivity to other aids--weight, leg, voice, with relaxed gaits and quick response. 

This has lots of benefits, it tunes the horse up, helps keep their mouth soft(ie, they "listen" to all the aids), when the students see me riding without reins they can see how the horse CAN behave when ridden well(this is a huge positive thing!!!) and I can model good riding(with the caveat that this is training and beginners don't etc...even though when I was a kid, dropping the reins in class was done in beginner classes, things are different these days), and of course it makes for a good working relationship between me and the horse.

And just for the sake of conversation, when I was a teen working at a horse camp, us wranglers would be taken on regular rides bareback with a halter, "cross country". It was a lesson in survival that I have to say taught me a heck of a lot, I fell off a lot, and my horse would take off, but I had been taught to tuck n roll and do the one rein stop(even with a halter) and ride like a monkey and "pick my landings". But again, ymmv. Yes I see a lot of liberty riding that makes me pucker!


----------



## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

The notion of "liberty" riding and that tackless proves anything is silly to me.

And on the notion that Native Americans rode tackless, I'll relay an exchange I heard at Crow Fair a couple years ago:

A white woman was taking photos and asking questions around some horses. She asked "Why did you (Indians) start riding with tack?" Older guy laughs and said "We've always ridden with tack. At least bridles." She said "But you didn't have tack in the old days." He responded "We stole the horses, you think we couldn't take gear?" She goes on "But I've seen pictures of Indians riding bareback and with nothing but rope in the horses mouths or nothing." Man explains "Well saddles are harder to run with, but if a man couldn't get away with a bridle, well, he just wasn't very good!" Everybody laughed, and the poor woman looked confused.

Apparently, the Calvary, and the Spanish armies before them, were as regimented then as the military is now. It was standard to keep the tack near the horses, so grabbing a few bridles was easy pickings once they kicked the horses loose (they would be gathered later) and there was commotion in the camp. lol 

I know that my kids relatives (Native American side of the family) all have at least one US Calvary bit hanging on the wall. A memento of coup won long ago.


----------



## cheyennemymare (Oct 8, 2014)

I ride liberty. In a round pen.

^Big difference.

I would never ever never ever NEVER EVER ride Cheyenne without any tack on the trails. In a round pen, yes. Arena, yes. But what if Cheyenne spooks? Sometimes the only way to show a horse that it's okay to stop is to pull back and let them feel pressure.

I trust her 100%. But I'm not putting her or my life on the line so that I can 'Be in touch without showing them forcefully" as natural horsemanship guru's say.

Don't get me wrong. I love NH and liberty. But as I stated above, her nor my safety is worth a bridle on her. She responds without one, but ever so often I have to check her speed on a hill, and if she darts and I can't stop her, we will both be hurt.

So yes, I like liberty and NH.

But no, I will not put myself or my precious mare whose life rests with me in danger.

God gave humans dominion over animals for a reason. And that reason is not for us to treat them without care.

God bless.
MK


----------



## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

When I was 12, I got a young gelding and trained him myself. We lived far from any neighbors, so he was my best friend. I rode for miles most every day on a bareback pad and hackamore. I could do almost anything to and with him, like snooze on his back while he grazed, stand on his back to pick apples in the orchard, hang off his sides in my closest approximation of trick riding, etc. We just had many hours and miles together, and he did NOT spook. He was a sweet bay Arab Quarter cross named Tonka, with a big round "headlight" blaze on his cute face. 

One day, I decided he was so broke, I would just ride him in his lavender flat nylon halter. We rode down to the creek, like we did so many times. But today, of course, we had a surprise. A mother skunk came bounding out from under the bridge just as we were approaching to cross it. Tonka was frozen in fear, but still listening to me as we slowly backed away. I thought we just might make it.

Then, out from under the dang bridge flounced 6 more little skunks! They began to move toward us, like a billowing blanket of black and white fur. My gelding, who was trying so hard to follow my commands, just lost it. He spun around and galloped full speed all the way home. I was able to hang on the entire way back, but there was NO WAY I was going to get him to stop with that black and white monster coming after us! 

That was the last time I ever tried such a silly thing.

I think that many people who come into horses come with very little experience with livestock and animals in general. They really lack an understanding of the power and danger of large creatures. 

I was lucky to grow up with rancher neighbors who taught me a great deal and helped me understand. Plus, I had ponies from age 5, and ponies can really teach you just how much an equine has a mind of their own! I had my butt kicked by many a pony and horse in my lifetime.

They don't think something like this could happen.


----------



## LifeInTheIrons (Mar 28, 2015)

I tried riding liberty once on my 11 year old Arab. He's dead broke and spooks rarely, if ever, and is a lazy sweetheart. I did not like it one bit. For one thing, my poor horse was confused out of his mind and had no idea what I was asking him to do, and I didn't like the feeling of having no control over him whatsoever. Even though we were in an arena, it WAS an outdoor arena, with jumps in it, and trees, bushes, and other potentially spooky objects all around it, and if my horse had suddenly decided to take off, I would've been on the ground! If I wanna ride bareback, I'm at LEAST gonna stick to having a halter and some reins on him so I can turn or stop my horse if I need too. It's not worth risking his safety or mine.


----------



## falling (Apr 13, 2014)

I've ridden 'liberty' like, twice, on my gelding. I think it's a cool thing, if you're in a contained environment and thus limiting the things that could go wrong. I was stupid and just hopped on with a stirrup leather around my big, very forward, occasionally very naughty, horses neck and went for a little trek around our property. I had no control- he walked me through some trees, then started trotting. When realizing I had no control he was clearly confused and started cantering in the kind of way that made ME realize I was probably going to die. He then bolted and I emergency dismounted. 

He stood on me- thankfully just my thigh but i had massive bruising for months and my leg is still numb a good year where he stood after this incident. I will probably try it again one day- BUT in very different circumstances. Most likely he wouldn't bolt now as he's much more sensitive to cues, but i'd only do it EVER in an enclosed area.


----------

