# Stallion for this mare?



## TrueColours (Apr 25, 2009)

Yup - she does need some help!!! :lol:

Ok - here goes from my end ...

Starting at her back end, she is lighter in behind than she is in front - she isnt balanced front to back. You need to select a stallion that will give her a larger engine in behind.

It might the angle you've taken the picture at or she is shorter in the legs than ideal, but I believe you need to find a stallion that will give her more length of leg as well

Her shoulder is straighter than ideal, tying in to a shirt, thick neck and she has a head that is plain, so I would again want to select a stallion for her that will improve her shoulder, give her a longer neck and better topline and a prettier head on the foal

In the front view picture she looks to be turning out badly in the right fore but it isnt obvious in the other pictures so it might just be how she was standing in this one ...

I am going to throw both Guaranteed Gold

Guaranteed Gold 










into the options for her as well as Winner:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/Winner.html 











Both will improve her in areas that she needs improvement on. GG will provide the prettier head - I dont think that Winner will

GG will give her a better hind end than Winner will. Both will improve the shoulders, necks and give the foal more "legginess".

GG will 100% guarantee a dilute colour for the foal, WInner will 100% guarantee a grey foal

Let me know if I can assist at all and good luck in your decision!

[email protected]


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Thanks for jumping in, TC, and for your very honest assessment of my mare there.

Of all the things you have mentioned, the head is the least of my worries, it would merely be a bonus to have a pretty head, and or a pretty color, but working back from there...

*SIGH*

Her neck and shoulder are kind of the main worries, and unfortunately this is a trait that she stamps on her foals, they tend to be thick through the jowl, and short in the neck, hang on this is her latest effort










See no neck, very thick through the jowel, but I'm thinking his shoulder angle does look better than hers?

I'm not so worried about length of leg, having a personal preference for big horses on short legs, BUT that doesn't give much future as an athlete, although I've known some great athletic jumpers who were more compact.

I do admire GG, he is a handsome boy, and he has some stunning foals on the ground for sure, but without being rude, do really think that his strengths can overcome her short comings?? Both mum and dad add to the genes of a foal, and I think a lot of the stallion that is Stewie's dad, but he wasn't able to improve much on her.

I would of never of thought of GG as a stud for Bert, just way out of my league, seeing as she is a grade nothing of a mare. You must have wonderful confidence in your boy to even suggest him. 

As I say I would be more than happy not to breed her again, and I'm hoping that common sense will prevail, but* IF *he really wants to have one more go, then as I say I really really want to go with something than will have a good chance of improving her.

I was even wondering whether an Arab with an extreme front end would be able to stamp her baby a little better, but I have nightmares about a sea horse head and neck on a draft type body :lol::lol:


----------



## kaydeebug (Aug 10, 2010)

i think that cremello is beautiful. would be great for your mare. i did a color calculator. here are the results of the offspring
29.17% - ​*Perlino *29.17% - ​*Buckskin *16.67% - ​*Palomino *16.67% - ​*Cremello *4.17% - ​*Smoky Cream *4.17% - ​*Smoky Black *


----------



## kaydeebug (Aug 10, 2010)

wow sorry it didnt work i tried to copy and paste ill just typeit.
perlino 29.17%, buckskin 29.17%, palomino 16.67% cremello 16.67%, smoky cream 4.17%, smoky black 4.17%


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Kaydee, if she bred this mare to a double dilute there is no way she would produce a double dilute. This mare does not carry cream.

Sorry TC, but I don't think either of your studs are right for this mare.


----------



## TrueColours (Apr 25, 2009)

This is where it helps immensely to have a history with the potential stallion to see EXACTLY what he has produced with mares that are the same, or worse, than your mare is and of the same breed or close to it. No point in saying he produces gorgeous WB or TB foals if your mare is a Draft cross ... :wink: 

So - here goes. Here is what he has produced out of mares that would be a direct comparison to yours

Dam is a full Percheron:










this is her filly by Guaranteed Gold - the grey filly - as a 2 and 3 year old. I LOVE this filly and would have never thought this cross would have produced something this elegant!










and:










GG gelding out of a Clyde mare:










GG filly out of a Shire mare:











Another GG full Shire cross filly:










And not a Draft cross, but this was a mare I owned - full WB, 17.2, head on her like a fur covered mailbox, VERY straight shoulder, short thick neck, weaker hind end. NOTHING elegant about her at all ... 











Once upon a time I may well have said "no thank you. I am not interested in breeding my stallion to your mare, but when I see time and time again how much he improves the mare in key weak areas, I have no hesitation at all in doing so

Please do let me know if I can assist at all and like I told another Mare Owner a few weeks ago who is also considering breeding her mare whom she adores to GG, sometimes breeding a mare because she is a really pleasant, agreeable, VERY nice to be around animal to a stallion that can assist her in areas that she is weak, makes much more sense than breeding a mare who is conformationally better, with *better* bloodlines, that you dont know or like as well and ending up with a foal that may look better but isnt as pleasant to be around. There is a lot to be said for horses that just fulfill a need to be a pleasant companion to hang out with and enjoy life with versus being registered with fancy bloodlines which doesnt prevent them from being shipped through the auction houses either ... :-(


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Um the two shire cross filly pics look like they are exactly the same filly...


eta -


TrueColours said:


> ...
> GG filly out of a Shire mare:
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

TrueColours said:


> Please do let me know if I can assist at all and like I told another Mare Owner a few weeks ago who is also considering breeding her mare whom she adores to GG, sometimes breeding a mare because she is a really pleasant, agreeable, VERY nice to be around animal to a stallion that can assist her in areas that she is weak, makes much more sense than breeding a mare who is conformationally better, with *better* bloodlines, that you dont know or like as well and ending up with a foal that may look better but isnt as pleasant to be around. There is a lot to be said for horses that just fulfill a need to be a pleasant companion to hang out with and enjoy life with versus being registered with fancy bloodlines which doesnt prevent them from being shipped through the auction houses either ... :-(


You see that is another part of my issue with this mare, she is a pain in the butt to be around, now ther is something about her that I really like, but if you nailed me to the wall and threatened my with a .22 I couldn't actually give you a good reason to breed a poorly conformed, uncertain tempered good for nothing witch like this mare. I don't know why I like her, and it is totally beyond all comprehension why husband likes her:?

IDK, I have no issue with breeding a grade, I have no issues with people who want to make themselves a designer horse, for a purpose, but we all know the breeding is gambling, and in any gamble it's better to try and rig the odds in your favor, and I believe that starting with good old Bert immediately skews the odds away from a successful outcome.

For the benefit of sharing experiences I will keep this discussion on the board for now, hope that is OK.

You have some nice looking foals from GG and draft mixes, that is clear to see and some of the mares are not the best examples of a brood mare, but to truly know the influence your boy is having on the offspring you would have to see other foals by a different sire.

Berts past offspring

This to an unknown , presume QH stud











These





























By this Boy (all before I bought her)










And then of course Stewie here










By this boy











I would say that she dominates and I wonder if GG could overcome her short comings.


----------



## TrueColours (Apr 25, 2009)

Stallion #1 has a horrible shoulder and horrible neck. No wonder the foals all came out like they did

Stallion #2 has a better shoulder and better neck and Stewie does look like he has been improved in those areas as well


----------



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I very much like the sorrel she produced by the QH stud. And I disagree with the QH's conformation assessment. You absolutely cannot tell a thing about his neck from that unflattering photo, though I suspect that if he raised his head and stretched out to a natural position, his neck would actually be quite lovely. Yes, his shoulder is steep, but still very adequate for a working type Quarter Horse. For being a ranch horse--and for producing athletic ranch horses on quality mares--I think he is a very nice animal, pending, of course, confirmation by a better set of pictures.

As for the mare, you know my opinion. Breeding her is too much of a crapshoot, and what traits she has produced consistently have not been good ones. If you must breed I might use a very tall, big, solid, using-type horse.


----------



## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

I actually like your mare , with all her querkyness  . As you say , not really breeding quality - but I do like her all the same. 

IF I were to breed her though , I personally would go for a draft stud , and go bigger, working with her big head and 'strong' neck  , only perhaps aiming to add a better shape perhaps and a nice strong shoulder and legs. I'd go for a decent draft and properly conformed Shire stud if it were me , or perhaps a Belgium if that is more your cup of tea.

I have in the past done both lower level dressage and used to hunt on my Shire, so it can (and frequently is) be done - I just like that chunky look, and am a sucker for a big ol drafty nose.

While Truecolours GG and Winner are beautiful studs , I personally would not choose them , as I personally enjoy that kind of horse - pretty to look at , but I like my drafts and after years of mooching up in the big chairs I dislike lighter breeds. personal preference - not saying that there is anything wrong with them at all (before I get fired from people) I just prefer drafts. 

If she is known to throw the thicker necks and big head , why not try and work with that rather than trying to get rid of it?

suppose it depends on what you end up doing with it

Then again , what do I know  just my 2c .


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I am honestly a little surprised at suggesting your stallions for this mare, TC.


----------



## Katze (Feb 21, 2011)

I would go with GG, he seems to throw refinement into all his babies, some of those mama's were omfg fugly (no offense to the mama's!), but their foals looked sleeker, and awhole lot more elegant. I would never pick a QH stud for your mare, they are too chunky to be able to improve on her. You need something leggy, elegant and puuuuuuuurty! 
GG anyone?:wink:


----------



## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Me please!


----------



## ilovemyPhillip (Apr 4, 2009)

GG. I've thoght about getting a broodmare & breeding to him before.


----------



## TrueColours (Apr 25, 2009)

> While Truecolours GG and Winner are beautiful studs , I personally would not choose them , as I personally enjoy that kind of horse - pretty to look at , but I like my drafts and after years of mooching up in the big chairs I dislike lighter breeds


And honestly - no offence taken at all. I personally dislike the heavier Old Style WB's (like my mare I posted) and prefer the lighter, more modern ones and then you have breeders that intentionally seek out the heavier older style for their breeding programs. All comes down to personal preference for sure ...  



> I am honestly a little surprised at suggesting your stallions for this mare, TC.


And Im honestly surprised WHY you are surprised??? :? Ive seen time and time again what beautiful babies he has produced out of full and part Drafts and not just "okay" babies out of "that" mare but really really gorgeous babies in their own rights no matter what the dam looked like! And on the pictures? If I could edit my post I would but unfortunately cant do so now



> I would go with GG, he seems to throw refinement into all his babies, some of those mama's were omfg fugly (no offense to the mama's!), but their foals looked sleeker, and awhole lot more elegant.


Tell me about it!!! :lol: And my WB mare was one of the "plainer" looking ones that needed a LOT of help in the "prettying up" department too! :lol:


----------



## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

Im glad you arn't offended truecolours - I had worried that you might be.

GG and Winner (and all the others , I have sat gawking at the horses on your website on a few occasions) really are stunning  and they really do add something quite special to the lighter WB scene  

I must say I particularly like Faux Finish I think she was called, now she is the very definition of Beauty if you looked it up in the dictionary ;P


----------



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I must say, it must be nice having a stallion that can improve every single mare and every single flaw and produce a spectacular result every time. I'm more than a twinge jealous.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

As the OP has already stated that she would aim for some low level Dressage and jumping, it seems to me that TC is offering the perfect studs for this endeavor - they're consistently known for their ability to stamp their get with athleticism and good traits regardless of the mare.

I'm quite frankly surprised at how many people seem to be regarding this as TC just "pushing" her studs, which is blatantly obvious in some of the replies. If the OP had said "I want a barrel racer!" I may understand, but she SAID she wants an English type horse out of this and she sure as heck ain't gettin that from a big rough "usin horse"! GG has shown what he can do on a mare of her type, so I am REALLY not understanding all the animosity here.


----------



## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

TC, I think GG would cross great with the OP's mare. GG is very refined, and while Golden's horse has thickness, GG would cross to create a nice English horse, IMO.


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I will just say that I do like GG and Winner.


----------



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

When you mix and match horses of two different types, you don't get a nice even balanced 50% of each. The results are a crapshoot. You could get something lovely...or you could just as easily end up with the massive bulk on Golden Horse's mare (with the stamp of bad neck and shoulder) on refined Thoroughbred legs that can't support the body's weight. This is particularly true since the mare herself is a crossbred--we have no idea what sorts of traits she's hiding.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

bubba13 said:


> When you mix and match horses of two different types, you don't get a nice even balanced 50% of each. The results are a crapshoot. You could get something lovely...or you could just as easily end up with the massive bulk on Golden Horse's mare (with the stamp of bad neck and shoulder) on refined Thoroughbred legs that can't support the body's weight. This is particularly true since the mare herself is a crossbred--we have no idea what sorts of traits she's hiding.


Breeding her to ANYTHING is a crapshoot, which only makes it all the MORE reason to breed her to something that's so consistently proven he delivers outstanding results on the exact same type of mare. Why on earth are you talking like nobody on this forum has any idea how breeding works? :-| The mare has already HAD several foals, which gives you an excellent view into what traits she passes on!


----------



## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I'm quite frankly surprised at how many people seem to be regarding this as TC just "pushing" her studs, which is blatantly obvious in some of the replies.


I think this has been seen on other horse forums that TC was active on. I post here, but I read many other message boards. I know from the other names posting, that they are active on other boards too. 

There is nothing wrong with this, if you are a paid sponsor of that board, and while this has not happened here yet - IF it is about to, maybe TC could pay Admin to advertise her stallions.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

AlexS said:


> I think this has been seen on other horse forums that TC was active on. I post here, but I read many other message boards. I know from the other names posting, that they are active on other boards too.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with this, if you are a paid sponsor of that board, and while this has not happened here yet - IF it is about to, maybe TC could pay Admin to advertise her stallions.


I suppose that's understandable, I just find she's SO active in the breeding section of the forum, she's a huge contributor to HF in a lot more ways then just her studs, so who can blame her for promoting them? I was on another forum, where we had an issue because one member ONLY posted to advertise her stud every few days, and I can understand that being annoying.

She just gave some really awesome advice on the mare, and a valid assessment of why her stallions may be suitable, so it just surprised me that people seem to have such an issue with it.


----------



## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

She had a valid point here!


----------



## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

I see no issue with it - shes not actually plugging them constantly dispite what people may say. Often it is not even her that first mentions her studs , it is one of the numerous other people on this forum. In fact the only thread in recent weeks that I can think she posted was to introduce Puchi Doll , which wasn't even about her studs . She has just as much right to be proud of her animals and share in their successes as anyone else does here. She is never derogatory , always polite and indeed is exceedingly pleasant in her conduct with everybody here (at least in my observance). 

She is a reputable breeder in her own right, with quality breeding stock both mares and studs with clear and honest breeding practices. She is a fountain of knowledge that she willingly shares with the rest of the online community and at least to me , I dont think that is to be knocked.

She is a breeder , and a good one at that , so of course she is going to be active in the breeding section! and at least it is always good things we see - not like so many of the backyard breeders threads we see started. Surely it is a thing to be encouraged and shared , so that others who are thinking of breeding , or like me just have an interest, have an opportunity to learn from somebody who is so knowledgeable??. 

I dont know , it just seems to me that people are so happy to jump on a thread that is full of vile drama that when a nice one comes along they are just looking to cause a fight where there really dosent need to be one.


----------



## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Scoope, she certainly has a nice stallion, and I didn't mean to jump on, I think I was the first to make a point clearly. If others disagree then fine, she certainly has a nice guy who provides nice youngsters. But she does sell her guy to a lot of people on other boards.


----------



## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

I wasn't meaning to be blunt - perhaps I was alittle?

Just my thoughts anyway - I wouldn't know about other boards as I dont tend to read all that many others, so only observations from this one really.

Mind you , if I made my living that way then I would be advertising mine as wide as I could. Afterall , we all have to put bread on the table one way or another don't we?.


----------



## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Scoope said:


> I wasn't meaning to be blunt - perhaps I was alittle?
> 
> Just my thoughts anyway - I wouldn't know about other boards as I dont tend to read all that many others, so only observations from this one really.
> 
> Mind you , if I made my living that way then I would be advertising mine as wide as I could. Afterall , we all have to put bread on the table one way or another don't we?.


you were not blunt you were fine, and as for the rest, I have probably said enough.


----------



## TrueColours (Apr 25, 2009)

Holey moley ... go away for a few hours and come back to a few more pages ... :lol:

Yes - I absolutely promote both GG and Winner if someone is asking for suggestions for their mare and I KNOW that either / both stallion can deliver for them AND I can back it up with pictures and data

I NEVER post and recommend them - either of them - if someone is looking for a dressage sire. I'd be laughed off every board if I did!

I NEVER recommend GG as a jumper sire, but I sure as heck do with Winner as he has the history and the stats to prove that he DOES produce fabulous jumper offspring

If someone is looking for something that can jump a bit, do low level dressage, go hacking, be a nice, pleasant hack horse - absolutely both will get recommended for those goals

When Mare Owners START these threads, they are looking for recommendations of stallions. Why wouldnt I recommend mine if they absolutely fit the criteria they are looking for???

And for the record, on several of the other boards were requests for up and coming young dressage stallions with impeccable, proven bloodlines. I just happened to know of one of those that was recently imported and I made the recommendation to use HIM and am happy to say that a few mares have now booked to him now that they know who he is and where he is

And thanks for the nice words on my breeding program. All of us breeders try very very hard to consistently put superior babies on the ground and it really is nice and very gratifying when others notice and comment ...


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I am so glad that I don't stand Alto to outside mares, because I would really struggle. The Haflinger mares I have here have been bought especially to compliment Alto, he will put height and some refinement and his great movement into his babies, so I'm comfortable having shorter stockier mares, and so far I've been happy with the results, we had two Haffy foals last year that I am delighted with, and Stewie, well less said about him the better.

If I did stand him to outside mares I would have no issue with offering his services to off breeds or grades, but I think I would struggle if someone wanted to breed a Bert type to him.

TC where do you draw the line?? I know that you are incredibly proud of your guys and you have some great examples of nice offspring from les than promising mares, but do you look at Bert and wonder if she should be bred at all?

IDK, I really struggle with this, IF someone is dead set on breeding their less than stellar, done nothing, no outstanding features mare, then it makes sense to breed her to the best that you can and hope that you win the foaling lottery. If that person is dead set on getting a foal, and all the good stallions close their doors to her, then the owner will on all probability take her to anything that posses the equipment to get the job done:-x

On the other hand, from my own point of view, apart from his Silver Classification, Alto has no show record, hasn't proved himself in any field, all he has to promote him is his babies, and I would be so scared to offer him to the likes of Bert in case the resultant foal took on the worst of each parent, and then for years I have an advert for my stud that screams, DON'T USE HIM.

How DO you decide which mares to promote your boys to, and what mares wouldn't you offer to?

Having said all that, and being very rude to poor Stewie, I do have a sort of masochistic interest in seeing what we get when he is all grown.


----------



## csimkunas6 (Apr 18, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> Having said all that, and being very rude to poor Stewie, I do have a sort of masochistic interest in seeing what we get when he is all grown.


Agree with you 100% Golden Horse! Good Luck in choosing a stud for your mare! Curious as to if you do go for breeding her, what stud you will choose


----------



## 2manypets (Mar 28, 2011)

JW, Are you planning on showing your stallion to establish credentials beyond his classification, Golden Horse?


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I've been whimping out of doing so, BUT, I know I should. I'm not so worried as at the moment he is only used for my 3 mares, but I do realize that it would improve the salebility of the youngsters if daddy has a record in something. IF I was going to stand him to outside mares then I think I would really have to bite the bullet and get him out there. I don't think that you should market a horse just on looking pretty, as Alto obviously is, not biased at all here, but on what useability he can add to your mares. Getting them out there and competing is one great way of doing that.

FWIW, If judges doesn't agree that you have a fine example of horseflesh, then maybe you should reconsider your priorities.

I haven't even started the research yet but my ideal for Bert is a boy who has been successful in the ring, AND has nice offspring, AND has proven ability to improve the likes of Bert. *SIGH*

To quote Groucho Marx



> *I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A MEMBER*


I feel a bit the same about Bert, to I really want to use a stud that would accept Bert, LOL, but I certainly don't want one that would accept anything with a vagina!! Hope that makes sense, I don't always explain what I mean so well.


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

Just my 2cent TC if i had top quality stallions i would be very very dubious promoting them to grade mares would you not rather breed to proven mare to get just top quality foals with true proper blood lines,
I have absolutely no problen breeding grades heck bred few myself but never to a top stallion i rather use something which meets her requirements exactly usre it totally pot luck but its worked so far


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

MaggiStar said:


> Just my 2cent TC if i had top quality stallions i would be very very dubious promoting them to grade mares would you not rather breed to proven mare to get just top quality foals with true proper blood lines,
> I have absolutely no problen breeding grades heck bred few myself but never to a top stallion i rather use something which meets her requirements exactly usre it totally pot luck but its worked so far


I don't understand this sentiment at all. If you ARE going to breed Grades, it makes the most sense to get the best possible stud you can. I don't see how it makes any sense whatsoever to breed to a similar quality stallion and have a resulting foal that has NO good qualities.

Zierra's dam is a conformational train wreck, and I imagine Zierra had a decent sire to come out as decent as she did. When I was young and stupid, my Dressage coach offered me her Hanoverian stud for a very discounted rate and we re-bred the mare. The resulting foal just sold for $5,000 as a completely green broke 4 year old. She has gone to a Dressage home with a trainer and a kid looking to compete. And she's unregistered.

There is NO way Zena would have produced anything even remotely worth selling in virtually any other circumstances. She wasn't registered, and breeding her to a local Arab stud may have given me a registered Half-Arab, but it's conformation would have been sketchy at best. The ONLY reason Zierra is worth a dime now is because she's a decently trained horse, and I'd be LUCKY to get $1,000 for her right now.

If you absolutely HAVE to breed a "poor" mare with not a lot of outstanding qualities, breeding to the most top quality stud you can find is your best bet. It's amazing how many studs have a VERY well known ability to stamp their foals with their own traits even in the most dire circumstances.

And let me tell you, if MY stud could consistently sire such AMAZING foals off mediocre mares, I'd sure as heck promote him as well. This isn't someone who is pushing her studs on just anybody, this is someone who KNOWS her stud can sire fantastic prospects on poor mares. Why WOULDN'T you market them to EVERY type of horse owner you could if you know the results only speak for themselves?


----------



## JerBear (Jan 23, 2011)

True Colors I work at the farm that has one of GG's offspring. JRR Paint Me Gold is his name. Hes absolutely gorgeous beyond all means refined and such a good boy! He is the palomino paint that Im pretty sure you can find on GG's offspring page? Anyways I can vouch for GG Ive seen an example of his offspring and hes amazing. I would pick him or Winner especially if your looking for more of an elegant horse... Nothing wrong with either of those choices.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I don't understand this sentiment at all. If you ARE going to breed Grades, it makes the most sense to get the best possible stud you can. I don't see how it makes any sense whatsoever to breed to a similar quality stallion and have a resulting foal that has NO good qualities.


I agree with you, my problem is this

As the owner of a sub par mare feel that it is my responsibility if I do breed her, to find the very best stallion that I can afford, that gives her the best chance of producing a great riding horse.

As the owner of a nice stallion I don't want to dilute his bloodlines by taking the chance of putting not so good foals on the ground. It is one of the reasons that I don't take outside mares for Alto, not because he doesn't out cross well, but because I would have to make decisions about what mares I would accept for him. Would I have the courage of my convictions and tell someone with a mare like Bert, sorry but I don't think she should be bred at all, while knowing that in all probability that the mare will still be bred, and someone else will have that sud fee in their pocket:-x


This whole breeding thing is not easy in any way shape or form, from questions of ethics, to the costs, and the worry of waiting and hoping that both Mum and baby make it through the whole process.

Now to be honest I had never thought of a TB cross for Bert, but it really does make a lot of sense, goes back to my roots where there were a lot of nice TB's around.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

Definitely understandable, and I think TC actually made the comment there was a time when she WOULDN'T let Grade sub par mares be bred to GG. But at some point, when the realization was made over what impressive stock he could sire from those same sub par mares, the fears were lessened greatly.

GG has already made a name for himself as an all around stud - he's not a racehorse stud, he's not a specialized jumper stud, he's just very well known for siring correct and athletic foals for any intent or purpose. At this point, the chances are slim of him siring unimpressive foals and of course it WILL happen but he's already proven himself as siring SO many correct foals that nobody is going to be put off him as a sire of one or two show up that aren't quite as impressive when bred to blatantly unimpressive mares.

Haha, I promise I'm not trying to push GG, I just HAVE to advise absolutely breeding to the best possible stud you can who HAS a track record of siring correct and good foals on sub par mares. I'm sure GG is not the only one, but that would be the line of thinking I would expect one to take when finding it absolutely necessary to use a lesser mare.

Best of luck eitherway!


----------



## TrueColours (Apr 25, 2009)

> How DO you decide which mares to promote your boys to, and what mares wouldn't you offer to?


Many years ago I was at the Toronto airport waiting to send 3 horses out to Europe and Augustin Walch was there waiting for 3 new horses to come in from Europe and we got talking ...

Augustin is the owner of Charlot Farms and his superstar GP horse - Rio Grande - was in the GP jumper ring at the time and slated to go to the Olympics. We got on the subject of number of mares bred to Rio and I remember this conversation SO well ...

Augustin told me that that year, Rio had about 125 mares bred to him at $1800.00 a pop. I was a little taken aback at that number and asked - surely out of 125 mares, there were some mares that werent that great??? And Augustin shrugged and said probably 50 of them were awful mares - really terrible mares with no redeeming features to them at all but everyone loved Rio and wanted one "just like him". Another 25 were ok mares - nothing special - just okay ...
Another 25 were nice mares - not superstars, but would probably produce some nice foals that would do well in the show ring. Another 10 or so were VERY nice mares that would produce very nice offspring and the remaining 10-15 were super mares here they had high hopes for those offspring in the years to come

So - you were realistically looking at about 20% of the breedings to "nice" mares that were worthy (for lack of better terminolgy) of being bred to a superstar Olympic level stallion like Rio

I asked Augustin why he would compromise Rio in that way by allowing him to be bred to garbage mares and he again shrugged and said do you have any idea how much money it costs to campaign a horse at the GP level and to get to the Olympics with him? The approximately $225,000 he brought in in stud fees that year would go a long way to his upkeep and the running of the farm. And he also said that he wont be hot forever - you must capitalize on his success and popularity while he is at the tope of his game, because tomorrow when he retires, there will be a new *hot* stallion in the limelight and eager mare owner lining up to breed their mares to him. And you know what? He was right ... 

On another board, the question was posed what criteria Stallion Owners use in accepting or declining mares for breeding to their stallion(s) and in the end - with the stallion owners that levelled with everyone and told the truth? As long as the money was received, the cheque was good, that mare was bred or sent semen. Period. There was no criteria, no selection process, no declining of mares. Not one single mare owner had a mare declined and some actually went as far as sending in pictures of some broken down, horrid looking mare and asking the stallion owner if they would agree to breed her to their stallion and they said in every single case, the answer was "yes" 

Will I refuse a mare? Yes - absolutely if I know her health will be compromised or if she isnt in the physical shape necessary to be live covered. Years ago we had a mare come in with a foal at side that was a bag of bones. She truly looked awful when she came off the trailer and I was horrified. I thought GG would break her if he jumped on her back and it simply wasnt fair. I called the client up and said I would not breed her in the condition she was in, I wanted to leave her through one or two cycles and see what weight we could get on her and then if I was happy with what I was seeing, we would agree to breed her. We did get her in foal, but she lost it on the way home or shortly thereafter 

I will also turn down a mare that I know temperament wise is a nightmare, I dont want some pyscho foal running around with my stallions name attached to it 

I will also turn down a mare with a conformation fault that I know has a genetic component to it. I sure dont want club footed or crookedy foals running around and people finding out they were sired by my stallion! 

With Winner - I would also probably *recommend* that a long backed mare is not bred to him as he is long in the back himself. If someone was looking for a pretty head on the foal, I would also mention the fact that Winner's head is "noble" but by no means "pretty" and I had serious doubts as to whether he could put pretty heads on any of his foals! 

I have also found that at least 50% of the people breeding out there or possibly more, want a pleasant companion out of a mare that has attributes that make them happy. They are the true amateurs that ride because they love the companionship that riding and horse ownership offer and they have "0" interest in ever entering a show ring. If the foal comes out with a pleasant attitude, is pretty, is easy to get along with, is in a colour they like - they are happy - and so am I. 

Probably another 40 - 45% want a horse for different levels of showing - schooling, "B" or "A" levels, in various disciplines and again - they want something pleasant, easy to get along with, that is going to do well in the ring for them. That again is a level that I can cater to very well

Then you get the riders that are looking for upper level mounts and along with that, oftentimes come horses that are supremely talented but very difficult rides and would NOT be suitable for the Amatuer rider. I have never recommended GG for an upper level jumper or dressage horse - I would be crazy to do so. He doesnt have the credentials behind him to be offered as such

Another example is a fabulous talented jumper named Altair that Beth Underhill rode on our Canadian Jumping Team. He was by Voltaire who tended to produce very talented jumpers that were also very opinionated and difficult to ride. Altair was a prime example. Beth was a fabulous and tactful rider and she would ask Altair to wait to the base of the jump but he always felt that he knew better and he would fight her every step of the way, and argue the toss every single time, so they would leave long or short to a jump, he'd jump or land awkwardly as a result and he'd be hurt and out of competition for xx weeks or months. He'd come back again and the same thing would happen - they'd have a clear round, they'd be leading on time, they'd come to one jump where he felt he knew better, down it would come and they'd miss winning the class. He was a heartbreaking horse to watch and probably even more frustrating to ride ...

So - a Mare Owner has to decide what they are breeding for. Do they want a pleasant fun horse to spend time with? A nice lower / medium / good show horse that they can have fun on and win some ribbons with? Or an upper level horse and if so - do they have the means and ability to ride it once they produce it??? :lol: 

MaggiStar - I hope this answered your concerns as well ...

And MacabreM - thanks for posting your thoughts - Ive been out all day and just coming back on the boards now. Appreciate the effort you have put into your responses!  

And in closing - JerBear - we are watching JRR Paint Me Gold with a lot of interest! Especially with him going for his RPSI testing this year! He looks gorgeous and so glad to hear he is a barn favorite as well ... 

Time to call it a night ...


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Oh My, what do you guys think of this boy for Bert

Tamarack Lane Farm - A Fine Romance Thoroughbred Stallion in Ontario, Canada

Not only good looking but has been out there performing as well,


----------



## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Ooo...I love that stallion.


----------



## 2manypets (Mar 28, 2011)

Did you ever say what you'd want to do with any possible baby Bert has? Hunter? 3 day eventer? She seems very sturdy and strong. Whomever you choose needs to really refine what she brings to the table.
I like the one you just posted-alot. He has several foals on the site, each nicer than the last. 
Will they even breed him to your mare seeing as how she's unregistered?

That came out kinda snotty, but I didn't intend it that way. There's just no nicer way to ask.


----------



## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

I FOUND HIM!!! I am telling you he is PERFECT  

Arnell Farms & Disguise Miniatures - The Mammoths

LOL <runs and hides>


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

2manypets said:


> Did you ever say what you'd want to do with any possible baby Bert has? Hunter? 3 day eventer? She seems very sturdy and strong. Whomever you choose needs to really refine what she brings to the table.


If it was for me I suppose that would depend where I think I'm going to be in 5 or 6 years time, and that is hard, 5 years ago I was to scared to ride, now I'm doing dressage and looking to move into 2' jumpers. There are limited English opportunities where I am, so something more of an all rounder, able to pop fences competently, have enough decent freedom of movement and ability to collect to allow for low level dressage, and that should give the best opportunity both as a keeper or as a seller.



2manypets said:


> I like the one you just posted-alot. He has several foals on the site, each nicer than the last.


he is rather nice isn't he, and I love that he has been out and about and proved his own ability, if he can do things maybe his babies can?



2manypets said:


> Will they even breed him to your mare seeing as how she's unregistered?
> 
> That came out kinda snotty, but I didn't intend it that way. There's just no nicer way to ask.


And my reply is going to sound a little snotty, and that's because I DO intend it that way, well not really, but if you check back to my post yesterday



> To quote Groucho Marx
> 
> Quote:
> *I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A MEMBER*
> ...


That is what I was trying to say there, in my usual muddled fashion. I have no idea if they would accept Bert, I haven't even got to the stage of serious inquiries yet, I 'm presuming that stallion owners are busy people, and I wouldn't dream of approaching anyone until I have done more of my own homework.

I need to have a definite picture if what I want the possible foal to be

I need to work out a budget that I can afford.

I need to look at available stallions and decide who gives me the best odds of giving me the kind of foal that I want.

Once I have everything down to a short list, then I would start serious approaches to stallion owners, I will market my mare, and hope that I can sell her possibilities to my stud of choice.

I can certainly say we wont be breeding her back this year, so I have a whole year to work on her, and on DH to get some sense going around here. If I can get her going well under saddle, and even *GASP* get her into a dressage or jumping ring in the fall I would feel so much better about breeding her.

IF she shows potential in a discipline, then I would argue that her suitability as a brood mare suddenly improves, she goes from a done nothing, poorly conformed grade, to a done SOMETHING, poorly conformed grade, but she will have credit points banked.

Sorry long answer to simple question, but talking about this is helping me think this thing through, and the longer I think about things the better.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Peggysue said:


> I FOUND HIM!!! I am telling you he is PERFECT
> 
> Arnell Farms & Disguise Miniatures - The Mammoths
> 
> LOL <runs and hides>


ROFL, now a draf mule would be another thing that I thought about, but I have no idea what I would do with one, and I think Bert would probably murder a Mammoth Donk with big ears coming at her :lol:


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

More or less what I was getting at is why would someone campaign their fantastic stud to a less-than-desirable mare? No offence meant at all, GH, she has her place. I guess I'm a little taken aback that a lot of breeders don't screen as much as I would have thought to protect their progeny... and that it does come down to money. That they would allow their stallions to breed with something that they consider "awful." I'm not saying every mare has to be stellar, with a show record to match the stud's, but I would imagine that there would be some sort of discretion. Where's the line? 
To each their own, to be sure. I guess my rose-colored-glasses view of things has been tainted a bit. It certainly opened my eyes for when (if ever) I look at breeding a mare in the future.


----------



## Cinder (Feb 20, 2011)

GH, I'm curious, why did you not shun your man if he sabotaged your attempts to sell your horse? He would have to run fast and far in my family....:lol:. 

I really don't like the idea of that mare being bred. Especially considering that she tends to pass on undesirable traits to her foals (even though a few looked pretty good, I have to say!). Don't ask how I'm not sure at this point but you're a breeder, correct? You don't want lousy foals of yours floating around when you have all the power in the world to NOT BREED HER. It might be a good idea to sit your husband down and explain to him in black and white why you shouldn't breed this mare. 

Anyways, I also have to say I don't like the stallion you posted for her. He's very pretty- but for some reason he just doesn't look RIGHT to me. 

I would go with GG, considering his record with less than great mares.


----------



## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I always wondered that too JDI


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> More or less what I was getting at is why would someone campaign their fantastic stud to a less-than-desirable mare? No offence meant at all, GH, she has her place. I guess I'm a little taken aback that a lot of breeders don't screen as much as I would have thought to protect their progeny... and that it does come down to money. That they would allow their stallions to breed with something that they consider "awful." I'm not saying every mare has to be stellar, with a show record to match the stud's, but I would imagine that there would be some sort of discretion. Where's the line?
> To each their own, to be sure. I guess my rose-colored-glasses view of things has been tainted a bit. It certainly opened my eyes for when (if ever) I look at breeding a mare in the future.



Perhaps it differs between breeds, but in my experience most stallions will breed to whoever is going to pay their bills. I'm sure that may differ slightly with TOP level stallions, but a 5K+ stud fee usually deters most people with completely unsuitable mares. It never ceases to amaze me how many people will state "available to a limited number of approved mares" on a website, with a link to PayPal to pay the stud fee and instructions on how to mail in your breeding application and how long to expect until your semen is delivered.

I think most people campaigning a stallion tend to be a bit blind to them in the belief they can improve ANYTHING. It's easier to tell yourself that when you can pocket the cash and justify why you're breeding to a 3 legged donkey.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Cinder said:


> GH, I'm curious, why did you not shun your man if he sabotaged your attempts to sell your horse? He would have to run fast and far in my family....:lol:.


Because as everything is in this life it's a balancing act, he thinks we have to many horses, which is probably true.

He wants to sell the G Man, who he has never liked, he persists in referring to him as the "gray dumb one" :twisted:, and that is NOT happening, so we battle on, and he complains, but he still takes some of the foal watch shifts at night, he's been battling through the snow drifts mud and water to rescue bales to keep the guys fed, and generally helps out with their care.

Sometimes you have to stand your ground, and sometimes you have to bend with the wind, but you win a battle at a time. We have been married 34 years, we've learned how to compromise, sometimes.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

At the risk of derailing this completely, I just want to say thanks to everyone who has contributed so far. You've been very polite, but honest in your views of Big Bert, and I appreciate that, I know she isn't great, so no surprises there, it's just nice to have people keep it civilized.

Walks away with fingers crossed hoping that I haven't put the kiss of death on the thing:lol::lol:


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

On the subject of stud (and sorry to derail a bit GH)

TC I have brought it up on here and you skipped my post. Two of the "fillies" you posted were the exact same foal. 

All the other pictures, all but TWO were of younger horses and at odd angles where people cannot adequately judge if the foal was well put together or not. (some were copyrighted and looks like the mods removed them) 

If anything, if I were in GH's shoes, I would want to see the foals when they matured before deciding to breed to GG in order to get an idea of how his less then ideal matches matured. As far as I can tell, there are no pictures out there. None that I can find anyways. 

All foals are cute, but some foals do grow up to be some butt ugly horses.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Golden Horse said:


> At the risk of derailing this completely, I just want to say thanks to everyone who has contributed so far. You've been very polite, but honest in your views of Big Bert, and I appreciate that, I know she isn't great, so no surprises there, it's just nice to have people keep it civilized.
> 
> Walks away with fingers crossed hoping that I haven't put the kiss of death on the thing:lol::lol:


As much as I detest backyard breeding, this isn't a post about a lovesick teenager with NO idea about the real world. You're a responsible adult, well able to care for multiple horses, and you don;'t have qualms about spending money to get a decent foal. While my equestrian side screams DON'T BREED HER, my logical side says it's your choice and I know you are well educated, able to provide for the foal and will ensure it has a good home! 

It's funny when people think we're all anti-breeding, and it's like "no, we're anti-stupid and naive". :lol:


----------



## Katze (Feb 21, 2011)

Cinder said:


> Anyways, I also have to say I don't like the stallion you posted for her. He's very pretty- but for some reason he just doesn't look RIGHT to me. I would go with GG, considering his record with less than great mares.


I agree, and his offspring have boxey type heads, and since your mare seems to have the same "affliction" (no offense) I would definetly go with a stud that's more refined. GG seems to stamp his foals with good looks each and every time, (and no not ALL foals are cute lol). He seems to balance out most imperfections in his babies that the mares he is bred to drop.

You keep saying it's just going to be a foal to do light competing in lvl1-2 drsg & jumping, why look for a stud that has such an impressive resume as Fine Romance does? Imo you need to breed her to a stallion that will stamp his get with athleticism and beauty, and THEN see about what that foal can or cannot do, GG seems to have those characteristics.

I would not breed that mare, no offense, if my husband was persistant about it I would sit him down and explain the why, where, and what of why she should not be bred. If he still insisted, i'd probably kick him in the butt and still say no ****. BUT you are a mature woman, you know the breeding industry, so I am sure you know what your doing and why. I wish you the best of luck with whichever stallion you chose (or don't chose lol) that you get the luck of the draw and she drops you a real winner =)


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

GH, you haven't been totally barn blind, and therefore you're contributing the conversation rather than sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalalalala! My mare is perfect! You're all meanie doodie heads and ruining my dream!" 

Anyways. On a more serious note - I'm just very surprised at the lack of attention that some stallion owners put into deciding which mares should breed. I'll definitely keep that in my back pocket when I go to breed in the future, and make sure that's one of the questions I ask the owners of the potential stallions.


----------



## sixlets (May 1, 2009)

I very much like GG, and have another stallion to suggest if you're looking for a WB papa. I really like Mirabeau , from Blazing Colours Farm. He gives loads of height and flair to his foals, though I've never seen him crossed with a drafty mama, as GG has been proven to do well. I have a friend who has a Mirabeau son, and he's tall, colored, gorgeous, and a bit dopey.
Here's a picture of him:


----------



## CCH (Jan 23, 2011)

I'd like to chime in here. I don't know that breeding to a thoroughbred is the way to go for this mare. I'd be afraid that because she isn't a true draft to provide some bone that is refined by the TB, you will end up with a finer boned colt than you would like with a big ol' head, stumpy neck, upright shoulder and weak butt that rides like mac truck down a gravel road. Or, it could turn out wonderful, that's the genetic game of chance that everyone has been discussing.

Bert looks like she is built to walk trails all day, or head steers & drag them around. She looks like most of the ranch (or "foundation") horses I see all the time, although a little bit bigger in the head, thicker through the shoulders, and with a slightly weaker butt than some.

As I understand it, just about any horse can do low level dressage (or darn well should be able to). The only issue there is whether they have pretty enough movement to score high, correct? This same "any horse" should also be able to jump 2ft or so pretty easily. I'm not saying all horses will have great hunter form, but they can hop over 2ft jumps without tripping over their own front feet.

I don't know what the market is like where you're at GH. Is it easier to sell a ranch type horse that does english with some background in dressage & jumping or to sell a straight dressage/jumper? I only ever see warmblood types and other strictly english horses do well closer to the coasts or really large cities.

I'm sure you will also need to find one within your budget, and that might preclude any outside of Canada because the shipping fees would be really high, and not many provide frozen semen.

Personally, my first big thing is, I would choose a sire that would allow you some sort of registry: Warmblood, half-??, or Pinto. That would be a plus and move the foal up a notch from grade. I would then look for an agile and quick stock type horse for her, and just make sure he has a well coupled sacral area with a short back & powerful butt.


----------



## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

why not a cute Arabian sire?? I am sure there are some up there that would complement her well and they would add the refinement she needs


----------



## 2manypets (Mar 28, 2011)

I read the brown TB's page as best I could considering the small print-what is his fee? If his fee is comparable to the cremello horses, I personally would go with the brown stud. 

I'm old fashioned-no fancy colors for me... Gimme a nice brown hunter and I'm one happy lady.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Catching up, 

We are pretty sure that Bert is QHxDraft (possibly Belgian), but they are the only clues.

Peggysue, I did think Arab, it is my outcross of choice, there is a reason why Arab's have been used in so many breeds to improve characteristics, but I'm not convinced that this is the right direction for Bert. If it all went well I do think that it would make a stunning cross, but I don't like the odds on that gamble.

TB type makes most sense to me, and maybe we should look for a good solid type.

Market up here, limited for English prospects, but better for good solid trail mounts and farm horses.

Color, the least of my worries, comes after 'pretty head' at the end of my list, way down below useability and soundness, and good mind.

JDI, I share your shock on some of the views of Stallion owners, as I say I'm a stallion owner, and I don't know if I could accept all comers for him, maybe that just shows lack of faith in my part


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> JDI, I share your shock on some of the views of Stallion owners, as I say I'm a stallion owner, and I don't know if I could accept all comers for him, maybe that just shows lack of faith in my part


I knew something was nagging at my mind, another reason I would be scared to use Alto on all comers

I did it again today!!!! Another one!!!! PICS!!!! - Horsetopia Forum

Now I'm not saying that this is a bad cross, and I'm sure that there is a perfectly good reason why this guy ended up at a sale, but still. The more mares you accept the more chance you have of your boys offspring going through an auction for meat money.

Yes I know that is the risk you take with every horse you put on the ground, but shoot, the more chances you take the better the odds of this happening.


----------



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

A GG son purchased for 28c/lb? My goodness! If that's not proof that there's a glut of horses on the market, I don't know what is. That should give anyone pause before breeding...truly no horse is safe....


----------



## TrueColours (Apr 25, 2009)

Yeah - that whole situation upset me more than you can imagine ... :-(

GG's owner at the time I guess waited until I had paid for GG and they no longer owned him and then he rounded up the rest of "the livestock" and shipped them all to the auction. I saw him on Friday, I made an offer to him for Goblin and one of the mares which was refused and then on Tuesday, they were rounded up, herded onto a truck including the 2 babies, the 2 mares and a 4 year old stud colt. Somewhere along the way the colt must have bred one of the mares - his dam - and either on the way to the auction or when she was there, she aborted and last I heard she was no longer reproductively sound.

It was one of the worst situations imaginable from someone I used to think a great deal of ... :-( and to make matters even worse, they went through as "grade" horses, with no papers. It was only AFTER they were purchased that people realized that they were papered TB's and what their bloodlines were ...

Goblin (the colt mentioned) has turned into a stunning youngster and his owner has done a marvelous job with him! 

Here are a few pictures of him:










and as a 2 year old just backed colt:











and as a 3 year old colt in January 2011:











yeah - Kendra was sure at the right place at the right time and she is a fabulous young lady and has done a fabulous job with this colt .. 

Years ago I was at my favorite dealers place and he pulled this sorry looking, lame and so skinny bay gelding out of the stall that was so abcessed he couldnt even walk. I felt so badly for him, I paid the $600.00 for him and brought him home, kept poulticing his feet, feeding him, looking after him and soon he started to put weight on and come sound. Anyhow - to make a long story short, I also started to find out "things" about him and who he was. :shock: He was Erynn Ballard;s first jumper, John Pearce was the Cantel Best Ever jumper series champion on him, he won some big speed classes out at Spruce Meadows, won a Puissance class, he showed at the Royal Winter Fair in the Open Jumper classes for several years and I bought him as a rack of lame bones for $600.00 as a 12 year old ... :-( 

In the States, there is the famous story of "For the Moment" who was bought from New Holland auction and was going to be turned into a school horse for their riding school. Well - he turned out to have WAY too much jump for the school kids and soon Lisa took over his ride and the rest is history as they competed as a member of the USET Jumping Team and went to the Olympics for their country as well ... 

Its truly amazing at times what deals can be had if you are simply at the right place at the right time ... and when people no longer seem to care when they have no further use for "their livestock" ...


----------



## kayleeloveslaneandlana (Apr 10, 2011)

I would say.... Breed her to an ANDALUSIAN!!! Or a TB! Or a LIPPY!!! Haha sorry I LOVE those breeds Good conformation and super dooper easy to train


----------



## TamarackLane (May 6, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> Oh My, what do you guys think of this boy for Bert
> 
> Tamarack Lane Farm - A Fine Romance Thoroughbred Stallion in Ontario, Canada
> 
> Not only good looking but has been out there performing as well,


 
I'm new here, but I was alerted to this forum and that my stallion A Fine Romance was being discussed.
Thank you, and thank you very much for your kind comments about him.
He has a had a long and excellent performance career, starting out in Eventing, where his rider, the Coach of the Canadian Olympic Event Team felt he was a legitimate 'Team' horse, and Olympic-calibre horse, and in his words, "One of the best".
As gratifying as it is to hear that, I made the decision to switch AFR's performance career to something considerable safer, A Circuit show hunter. He competed very consistently and successfully as in the Working Hunter divison - where the horses are judged on style and manners as well as jumping ability and athleticism. 
He managed to combine showing with a very busy breeding schedule, often going to the show ring, DIRECTLY from the breeding shed - which says a GREAT DEAL about his stellar temperament and work ethic. He quite simply NEVER put a foot wrong.
It was vital to me that my stallion earn the right to be a stallion by showing that he had the athleticism, the attitude and the soundness to have a successful show career.
In addition to this he has a kind, intelligent, and level-headed temperament.

In addition to his performance career he also had a REMARKABLE career showing on the line, consistently winning Championships, Grand Championships, end of year awards etc showing in BOTH the Thoroughbred AND Sport Horse stallion divisions. This is a testament to his outstanding conformation, movement and temperament. His handler has called him the 'best horse he has ever held".

He is a GOLD PREMIUM Canadian Sport Horse Stallion as well as a Star stallion, approved ISR/Old NA - one of the few Thoroughbred stallions to be approved with them.

But the true test of a stallion is his ability to sire outstanding offspring, who are improvements on their dams. A Fine Romance has been bred to a wide variety of mares, especially earlier in his career. Offspring win on the line (including at Devon  ) and go on to have performance careers - whether it is low level with their child or amateur rider, or competing in the upper levels of show hunters, eventing or the jumpers. He has Advanced & Intermediate eventers, winning Grand Prix and upper level jumpers,3.6 A circuit hunters.
Part of the reason for his prepotency as a sire of sane, sound, beautiful athletes is his pedigree - rich in the finest names in TB sport horse breeding: Bold Bidder, Bold Ruler, Nasrullah, Princequillo, Royal Charger, Turnto, Double Jay, My Babu, Somethingroyal, Umidwar, etc. 
I bred him to be a race horse, little did I know that I was also breeding him to be a sport horse and a sporthorse sire.

He has been very prepotent for his type - an excellent neck set, superb topline, deep hip, correct legs - and of course for athleticism, jumping ability, a fabulous canter, and a great work ethic.

Thank you for the very kind words about him, every one.

When I figure out how to post pictures, I most certainly will.

I am not suggesting him for your mare however, Golden.
He is completely booked up for 2011, and nearly completely booked already for 2012.

I would be happy to recommend other stallions and help you in any way I can with your decision-making, whether you decide to breed your mare or not. 
Best of luck with her, and with your husband! I have been married for 30 yrs too, and as you know it is always best to pick your battles!!


----------



## TamarackLane (May 6, 2011)

Cinder;1010205
Anyways said:


> Interesting observation Cinder. Of course not all people like the same thing in a horse, and I wouldn't expect everyone to LOVE my horse.
> 
> But, your comment "he just doesn't look RIGHT to me" - is very odd. Perhaps you could elaborate on just what it is about him that doesn't look "right" to you.
> 
> ...


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Tamaracklane was very nice in her response, if I do say so myself.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Did you see where he is booked out for this year, and filing up fast on the next?

When she doesn't suggest him for Bert?

Much Kudos to Tamaracklane, she, has a really nice looking stallion, who has a proven record in font of judges. 

She is also a highly sensible woman, who knows that the secret of a long and happy marriage is 'pick your battles' 

You'll be glad to know that this one is won, 2 mares here will be bred for next year, two registered Haflingers to my registered Haflinger stallion:lol:


----------

