# Complimentary stallion for my mare



## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

Down the line, the goal is to breed my mare. Come 2018 she will have a registered show record with USEF (that's her first year of rated showing), and my goal is to find a hunter-type stallion for her. She will also be presented to the Oldenburg registry September 2018 (the plan, at least) so she can be approved as a broodmare for registered foals.

Her conformation, good and bad, presents itself as slightly downhill, athletic build but well-sprung ribs, streamline body, goose-rump, sloping shoulder, straight hind leg, cow hocks, high/low hooves, and she has a more huntery, floaty, daisy-cutter movement. She has a low neck set and rather short legs. She is 16.1, and a little over 1100.

Stats:

*Breed:* JC registered thoroughbred
*Registered Name:* win it to be in
*Registry:* USEF/USHJA/USDF
*Primary Discipline(s):* Working and Show Hunter (non-breed) and 1st Level Dressage (we will see if we go higher)
*Breeding:* Sire, Minister's Wild Cat (Deputy Minister) x Dam, A Plus Plus (Honor Grades)
*Race Performance:* 3/7 races won

Even though she is a TB and has excellent eventing bloodlines, I am not an eventer.

Photos of her below. She is my baby girl and I love her to pieces. Her bloodlines are really the main reason why I want to breed her - she has BEAUTIFUL breeding on both sides of her pedigree and I don't want that to be lost to history. I honestly feel you can't get this type of talent for what little I paid. She was almost free.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

thecolorcoal said:


> Her conformation, good and bad, presents itself as *slightly downhill*, athletic build but well-sprung ribs, streamline body, *goose-rump*, sloping shoulder,* straight hind leg, cow hocks, high/low hooves,* and she has a more huntery, floaty, daisy-cutter movement. *She has a low neck set and rather short legs.* She is 16.1, and a little over 1100.


You just described her as _*not*_ a desirable broodmare with all those* "faults" *....

Now describe her as eloquently with *only *her stunning attributes to why you should breed her...

I am _*not*_ putting her down..._but you just did. 
She's cute...but she is only average looking to me.sorry
_
If she truly has that many "faults", you are going to need one _*strong*_ set of male genes to overcome and offset her..._and no guarantees._
I hope if you truly do breed her this is a forever home for the offspring, no matter good or bad, this offspring is yours from day of birth to day of death.
There is always a chance of a "trainwreck" in a baby arriving...the one no one wants and becomes thrown-away. 
Please be very careful in your decisions of what you choose to do and with whom.
_Make sure you can provide a forever home so you not end up with sorrow in your heart from a sale and unknowns beyond..._ :|
:runninghorse2:....
_jmo..._


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@horselovinguy, thanks for your response.

Why she is a good broodmare: she has hunter knees, she has scope, she has correct gaits, she has uphill movement, she has a great temperament, she has excellent breeding.

No horse is perfect. Cow hocks are preferred in my discipline as they add to jumping ability. As does a sloping croup. She is not so straight behind that she is post-legged.

In my sport, those are what count. What adds icing to the cake will be to see how she performs in 2018. Right now she has no performance to back up her abilities. Only if she does well this season will we consider her for a prospect. But based on her natural talent I believe she would benefit her offspring.

this is something a horse has or doesn't have, you cannot teach what is so pivotal to a traditional hunter horse: knees. that is why she is worth being a broodmare.

I posted the videos to show her movement in spite of faults.

I must admit that even the "throwaway" warmbloods (cough, imported from europe) still fetch tends of thousands of dollars just for the registration label alone. So I am not at all concerned about a dud. What I'm hoping to find here is a stallion who has the conformation that may help the foal.

She has the physical build: short back, wide torso. She has a nice head and pleasant expression. Limited knee action and a steady canter tempo.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I'm _*not*_ into breeding myself. :neutral:
I'm just _not_...
What I see is expenses and possible risk to your mare...
Loss of her riding use for close to a year or more...
The expense and unknowns of in-utero and then raising till a minimum of 2 or more years before hopefully you have _something_ decent to work with as there are no guarantees...

Or, you go searching for a live, on the ground candidate that you can either raise from true baby or one older you can start ground training and move forward with knowns as you saw potential when you looked and purchased.

I just see today and in the distant future a buyers market of registered great blood lines, nice horses with so much potential to go for the expense, the down time and mostly the risk to mare and that the baby make it to the time of life where you can start to make dreams become reality..

I don't know and truly am asking...
Is your mare from bloodlines that proved themselves in the show ring as hunter type horses?
I know some blood is better than others...
I know Deputy Minister babies are known to pass the poor hooves/feet and not sure if legs are part of that legecy...ankles are.
I just don't know if I would take the chance of worse and problematic issue known with breeding her...

Good luck in what ever you decide...
Good luck to your mare in the show-ring and to you making some huge decisions about her future..
:runninghorse2:.....

_ETA: I just looked at the picture you showed of that horse over fences...
He has average legs...they could be popped higher and squarer, tighter below honestly.
Yup, they are "square" I will give you that. 
Again, jmo...
_


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

That was a heartfelt post, @horselovinguy and I completely agree with you. Like i said, this all comes down to whether or not she can perform. She has the ability and the genetics, but what will the judges say? That is what we need to find out.

They could be higher, it's true, but the FORM is correct. And not all hunter horses can have that form naturally, a lot of them are artificially created. Mine has never been rapped a day in her life, nor has she had any "alterations" in her training. This is just how she goes.

She has eventing bloodlines. Northern Dancer on dad's site, Secretariat on mom's side. It is a difficult decision to breed, as I could not bear to lose her. I have to do more research. I simply wanted to know what stallions are out there?

This isn't a fixed decision BY ANY MEANS. You bring up some EXCELLENT concerns. I don't want to lose this horse in childbirth. She is too precious to me, which is why I'd like to wait until I own my own property and can care for the baby properly.


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## cbako01 (Oct 21, 2016)

There are lots of things to consider before breeding any horse so it pays to do your research 
The conformation photo isn't the best, since she's looking towards the camera, isn't completely square in front and is wearing boots. However, she seems to have a decent shoulder and fairly well set on neck (again this is difficult to say for certain due to her position), but it does tie in quite deep. Can't tell anything about her gullet, front left foot may be ever so slightly clubby.. Pasterns look to be on the longer side and maybe a fraction upright. Would maybe like to see a slightly longer winter, but TBs are notorious for having tall and short withers lol Her back appears short but she is a fraction long through the loin and appears to have damage lumbar region. Since you say she was raced, it is possible that racing was the cause- I believe it if often caused from jumping out of the barriers but something to keep in mind regardless. Her main weakness in my opinion is her hind end. Her SI is located rather far back behind her hip, giving her a short croup and contributing to the long loin. Stifles and hocks are high compared to her front and she is also a little straight through her hocks. Ideally, you'd like to see a bigger hindquarter. 
Movement wise, I think you'd really want to improve her canter. The stride appears to be on the shorter side, lacking cadence and she is a little 'pokey'- she doesn't really come through with her hind legs. This is most obvious in the trot. I would like to see a little more activity in her hind legs and a little more reach under her body, but I do like the freedom she has in her shoulder. Again, I think this comes down to her front being better built compared to her hindquarters. 

I am not super familiar with American TB lines as I'm an Aussie, but I did notice that she has a pretty good dam line through her dam's sire. I don't know much of anything about her sire, but I do like the fact he has Mr. Prospector on his dam's side. Downside is that he is fairly far back in the pedigree when considering your mare and any resulting foal. Will have to look into these when I've got a bit more time. TB pedigrees can lead me down a rabbit hole which can last for hours lol

I believe if I am remembering correctly, your mare has had some soundness issues in the past? If so, these are so important to consider, since conformation can contribute to these. Can you elaborate a bit more here? I am a little suspicious of those front legs, mainly the lower leg due to her pasterns and the potentially clubby foot.

Now that I've picked your mare apart (and don't get me wrong, she's not a badly built horse. You've just got to be critical when talking about things like breeding to try and get the best possible outcome), what exactly are your breeding goals? You mentioned in your original post that your mare does hunters and lower level dressage (I'm not fully up to speed with the Aussie equivalent of the US levels, but 1st level is literally the first officially recognized competitive level isn't it?), which are pretty different from each other. You want a hunter to travel long and low and open with long smooth strides, whereas a dressage horse is expected to have a lot more sit/more compact and carry themselves more up in front (in a very very basic sense). A downhill hunter horse is not so much of an issue (in fact a lot of the top hunters I have seen tend to be on the downhill side where as downhill in a dressage horse can pose some training difficulties in the higher levels. So, what are you exactly hoping to produce with your mare? A top level dressage horse? A top level hunter? Or a general all-rounder? What level are you hoping to achieve? 
All of this will or at least should impact your choices when choosing a stallion. You won't find many hunter stallions who have successful offspring in the higher dressage levels and vise versa. She is more a hunter type than a dressage type, so I would lean towards heading in that direction when selecting a stallion. If you can give some more info on this and anything else you'd like to 'improve' on your mare (like height or bone ect.) then it should help narrow down some stallion suggestions 

This next bit is going to bit of a breeding info dump so just bare with me 
Just deciding you would like a foal out of your mare unfortunately doesn't mean its a simple wham bam thank you ma'am and your mare is in-foal. Generally, any complications that can come up will come up; or at least plan for that to be the case and be grateful if they don't! 
How old is your mare? Has she foaled before or is she a maiden? Older maiden mares are notoriously tricky to get in-foal and can require pretty intensive veterinary attention to make it work. Next after them are the older barren mares (those who haven't foaled in some time). This can limit your options for stallions, as if she is either of the above you will probably want to steer clear of frozen semen. Commonly, these mares have trouble clearing fluid from the uterus post breeding and coupling that with the lower mortality of frozen semen is usually not a good mix; often these mares require oxytocin shots after breeding to help clear that fluid before the embryo descends into the uterus. If your mare is fairly young, you could attempt frozen, but there are lower success rates and it is often more expensive than fresh/chilled because they require more intensive monitoring pre and post insemination. 
Next the mare will require at least three scans to watch how the pregnancy progresses in the early stages as well as identify any twins/triplets/quads which may crop up and need to be dealt with. All things which can increase your vet bill!

Once your mare is in-foal, will you be okay with not being able to ride her for a series of months? Many stallion owners will actually void a LFG if the mare is brought back into work/competition after breeding, so make sure you read any and all contracts carefully. Actual care of the mare doesn't change too drastically until the last trimester, where her dietary needs increase greatly and increase again during lactation. If you're barn/stable doesn't have excellent pasture, expect a decent increase in your feed bill. Also, if she is kept at a busy barn where horses are coming and going, there is a distinct risk of disease being brought onto the property, particularly if they are attending large competitions. Some of these diseases can cause abortion in the pregnant mare so you will need to find out if you are in an at risk area and what you will do to minimize the risk such as vaccinations or isolation from traveling horses. 
Come foaling time, do you have an area where she can foal down safely? Are you or a mentor/barn owner/ect. knowledgeable enough to recognize common problems before, during or after foaling? (ie. Placentitis, dystocia, dummy syndrome). Are there vets or equine clinic located nearby if something does go wrong? What's your contingency plan if something does go drastically wrong?
Majority of pregnancies/foalings go down without a hitch, but things can turn sour quickly especially during foaling. There is a very real risk of loosing the foal, the mare or both. If you lost your mare, would you be able to raise an orphan foal? That has to be a risk you are willing to acknowledge and accept. We had one mare at stud this year who had foaled down with no trouble previously have a horrific dystocia and then retained the placenta. The foal was dead and they nearly lost the mare too. A colt foal at the same stud presented with dropped fetlocks on his hind legs and has required a lot of care to help strength those ligaments and as racked up some pretty decent vet and farrier bills in his first month of life, not including the extra work required since he was required to be on stall rest and limited exercise. 

I'm sure there are more things I have forgotten to mention (there always are in a topic as expansive as this) but realistically it will probably cost you a minimum of $5000 to get a foal on the ground, provided there are no complications, the stud fee is mid range (1000-1800) and everything goes smoothly. If you are not willing to risk your mare, do not have access to the required facilities or do not have the knowledge/are unable to find a mentor then it may be better to find a foal/weanling/yearling who is already on the ground and suits your requirements. Breeding can be expensive and heartbreaking, but also incredibly rewarding. Its just important to consider all possibilities before committing  Research and talking to the people in the know is so important and when you think you know enough, read some more. You can never know enough when it comes to stuff like this


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

Hi @cbako01!

Your observations are all 100% spot on and things I sort of don't see until they are brought back up again. Yes, she has weak hindquarters in general. This is about as good of shape as she's ever been or ever will be, so criticize away! She does have a right front sesamoid fracture that I can confirm did not happen when she raced (i got to talk to the trainer), and due to the timeline we strongly assume it happened with her previous owner barrel racing. She has calcification in her lumbar area. That is still up for debate whether it happened racing or barrel racing. I believe a lot of her "smash and crash" injuries happened with her old owner, as she was a rescue case and the owner wanted to get rid of her as fast as possible.

It's interesting you mention her hocks because I always noticed this too. Her hind canon bones are very long compared to her front canon bones, which are short. 

She has a very short canter stride naturally. It is not as ground-breaking as I find her trot. She does not use her hind end as well in the canter, and that is something we are gymnastically working on.

Her left front's been discovered to be club foot, and we have a new farrier maintaining it.

I suppose I am so stuck on those knees, which are prized so highly in hunters and so few horses have them naturally. It is a very hard sport to excel in, there is a lot of competition. I don't know how she'll do, but for a backyard bargain I admit I consider her pretty nice.

The dressage is mostly just for her strength training and cross training. We don't necessarily compete to win, we compete to see how we are currently doing and improving. She doesn't have natural dressage movements, they have to be trained and created from what we have to work with, but I do believe she has a better chance at being a good hunter, we just need to open up that stride.

Babies are waaaaay into the future, I was just hoping to get a headcount on stallions that could improve what my mare lacks. I'm getting the feeling, however, that she may perhaps not be the best broodmare prospect.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I think you could find a better broodmare, or purchase a foal without risking your mare and get a better baby than you will from this mare. Her breeding is nice, but not rare, and her soundness issues are not ones I'd want to pass on to a foal.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Great points have been brought up thus far but I'm just going to add - 

My criteria for breeding anything are as follows: Animal must be papered. Animal must have a successful show record. Animal must have excellent conformation. Animal must have excellent temperament. If any of those conditions aren't met I don't breed. I formed this opinion when I was in high school, after I bred my grade Quarab mare with conformation that was mediocre at best and no show record whatsoever to a Frenchman's Guy stud that was hot and also had no show record. I got lucky with the resulting foal, he turned out a decent color, great mind, was actually registerable, and had very good conformation. While I was looking for a home for him I realized how many horses there were for sale, bred by backyard breeders like myself who thought "oh my mare would make nice babies!" and then had to offload their mediocre foals.

To be completely honest, I don't see anything ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC about your mare except the lovely knees and knee action. There is nothing that screams this mare needs to be bred, and if it doesn't jump out and bite you it's probably not worth messing with. I also think that you should spend the money and time on a foal that's already on the ground, from really great hunter lines if that's your passion, and take it from there. I mean, yes, say your mare passes on her wonderful knees to the foal - and then you also get sour attitude, poor conformation, perhaps an issue during the birth that will affect your mare for the rest of her life, etc. Will it really have been worth breeding her, just so that foal will get those knees?

-- Kai


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

Thats a good point, Kai. I admit I am learning about the conformation requirements for a hunter horse. In general, they prefer warmblood-y types. I can only judge her against other thoroughbreds, because she will never have the physique of a warmblood. There are many weedy, thin, and disproportionate thoroughbreds racing today who have less than great conformation. I suppose I put ability and handiness above looks. I wonder, if she did well, if opinions would change? But then again I may be extremely biased.

I would not pick a stallion who had poor attitude. I am only versed in TB lines, I know nothing of warmblood breeding which is why I was hoping to learn from people here 
@SilverMaple, I think _any_ horse can have soundness issues. It does not mean they were predisposed to it. Accidents happen, the fracture did not happen on the track but was due to highly aggressive riding by previous trainer. She retired sound from racing. Soundness that comes from bad farriers is *not the horse's fault*, it is the farrier's for not knowing their craft.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

thecolorcoal said:


> In general, they prefer warmblood-y types.
> 
> @*SilverMaple* , I think _any_ horse can have soundness issues. It does not mean they were predisposed to it.


See...in actuality....
Warmbloods are still a "newer" phenomenon.
Today, they have become a "purer" horse of WB bred to WB but that to my knowledge is not how they came to be...
Seems ages ago the WB came to be because someone did a cross between a draft, heavy boned horse and a finer, refined lighter boned horse....now you have a WB. 
They have put a fancy name on them for creating a "new" breed and now you pay big bucks for a WB...

So, the true hunter horse was *not* a WB...
It was a Thoroughbred or Arab mixed or pure or some sort of _not_ heavy boned horse.
Go back and look at the pictures in archives of what a hunter horse looked like and you will be amazed...
You can keep the WB and still use a blooded Thoroughbred or any other breed and keep the finer, refined bone structure if that is what you desire.
It is how the job is done in training in looks of soft, willing and pleasing to the eye that wins a class.
Today, _the fad is bigger the better_, clunky and heavy bone but truly judged on merit that Thoroughbred or any other horse has just as much chance in the ring for the blue a any other...fact!

As for this statement, " I think _any_ horse can have soundness issues. It does not mean they were predisposed to it. "....
Partly true...
In your case, your horse* is* predisposed to having them.
Her lineage proves that to be true.
The record books make note of the trait being carried from generation to generation of issue being there still to this day...
Your horse has it and is going to carry it forth in any offspring too...
A farrier must know his craft, yes...but if a horse has a conformational weakness...not helping matters.
A broken bone, the sesamoid in this case will sideline a racehorse from racing again if the owner cares at all for the animal.. 
Once healed though, I have ridden some awfully nice Thoroughbreds who recovered from that exact break to be sound, competition strong, winning horses who worked the circuit to make year end championship ranks.
Equitation, jumping, working and A/O hunter horses...many, many horses over the years I had the pleasure of being astride.
I showed them for sale as part of my job to prospective new owners but saw them compete and make the grade and then excel...
That break if it was given the right care and time to heal *is* a non-issue. Years down the road, it _may_ be a arthritic issue and can be dealt with medically at that time as needed in truth.

With your horse though being "fine-boned" as she is I would again be doing some serious thinking about breeding her to a horse of far greater bone mass, size and stature than she is.
Mass is mass all needing to travel through a small birth canal.
Our choices though in what is bred to what can have a outcome of easier or difficult delivery for the mare...
_More things to think about... :|_
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@*horselovinguy* , love your posts as always!

Completely agree with you, arabians and thoroughbreds were the jumping horses and hunting horses of old, but now they are looked down on by many  it makes me sad.

I understand what you are saying about predisposed soundness. She does have names in her pedigree that do not help her. The sesamoid did heal fully, thank goodness. But it is because it was pasture treated and not treated with hard core medicine the way they do it at the track that I remain skeptical. If anything happened to that ankle I would *never forgive myself* in being so careless.

She did not barrel race after the fracture. Her trainer was horrified to find out about what happened to her after racing. I assured him she was safe with me and would be my horse forever.

I think this discussion has made me realize that if I wanted to breed my mare, I could not consider it a sale prospect. I probably would breed her to have the baby myself, though being a broodmare is one of her "retirement jobs" among several others she could do if, in fact, something happened where she could not be ridden anymore.

I think the fact that she has so many great eventing names in one place is why I love her pedigree, but for my sport I suppose they don't matter.

Thank you so, so much @*horselovinguy* ... I am relieved to know that her fracture is not a weakness I must obsess about anymore. I did post her x-rays, and I would love a second set to see what it looks like in today's age, but I am full aware that this could/will be an arthritic issue, as is the vet. Joint supplements for her are a toss up, as we are leaning more towards legend. I think I want to retire her from jumping before the arthritis kicks in, or as soon, as to prevent discomfort on any level. This horse means so much to me, she has given me a lot of my love for life back.

I suppose the breeding adventure may not be an adventure at all, but it's always nice to think about. The conformation critique was great, by the way!

Good point about the stallion, I did not think about that. I would not want her to suffer while giving birth...

Perhaps I should just keep the thoroughbred lineage going, if I do decide to breed her. These are excellent points. Thanks for the clarity, @horselovinguy.


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## cbako01 (Oct 21, 2016)

Considering everything in this thread, cost, emotional attachment, ect. I would maybe lean towards not breeding this particular mare and I'll elaborate a bit more further down. She's really not that badly built, not perfect but she's not a complete trainwreck either, but the things like her club foot (especially because it's only in the one foot) are likely to have a genetic component rather than being due to the type of work she's done in the past. I would say her stride will always be on the shorter side and never be that really open rolling hunter canter, simply because of how her hindquarters are built and the fact she's done a lot of hard work earlier in her life. 99% of OTTBs will have issues with their SI, which causes them to shorten up behind and I suspect the barrel racing would have caused some grief in her stifles as well, again causing her to shorten her stride. It can definitely be improved through work and all that jazz, but I think its unlikely for her to get that 'perfect hunter' canter. 

So main points you'd look for in a stallion is consistently throwing and improving the mare's leg conformation, better hindquarter and consistently improving the canter (don't know if the trot is as important for a hunter as it is for a dressage horse? Either way, trot is the easiest gait to improve.) A stallion can do a lot in terms of the foal, but you can't expect a really nice stallion to improve ALL of a mares flaws. Heck, it is likely he will contribute some of his own shortcomings into the mix somewhere. So, if this is something you seriously want to consider, start looking at stallions now, learn the pedigrees and lineage of the horses you like, see how they cross with types similar to your mare. You will start to see patterns and recognize names which will be immensely helpful when you do get to the point of picking a stallion. I think that the WB (or even Irish Draughts) would probably be your best bet, only because it is usually fairly easy to find information on the stallions and their progeny. Grandparents are also important to look at, as they often throw back to them. Adding bone might be difficult if you were to breed back to a pure TB, but the hunter type TBs do exist. 
I will echo Horselovingguy's concerns over the size of the stallion- it can end in disaster if they are too different (and even sometimes in breedings where sire and dam are of a similar size, but that is the risk you take). A very general rule of thumb is no more than a hand bigger for the maiden foal and no more than 2 hands bigger for subsequent foals, provided the horse's are of a similar bone and the mare doesn't look to throw overly big foals. Bone is usually more of an issue than height, long legs can fold up where as you can't do much of anything to reduce the width of hips/shoulders during foaling. If you weren't looking to add height to the mare, you'd probably be able to go with a slightly heavier stallion, so long as his foals don't have a larger than average birth weight. 

If you do decide to breed, I've got no issue with it, its your horse and your choice after all. However, I do want to stress that you need to do your research and be as well informed as possible before committing to it. Breeding is an adventure, but its also a bloody hard slog. If you go in uninformed and something goes wrong, it can spell disaster for all involved. I'm not saying you need to know everything, but you should know the basics of mare care,pre and post foaling, care of the newborn foal, what is normal (eg. normal time for hitting milestones, vital signs, presentation ect.), common problems and issues which can (and often do) crop up. I would also recommend looking into breeding the older maiden mare and the common pitfalls involving that- they can be much trickier than the younger mares and often require some special attention. Another good idea is to start bit of a saving fund for breeding purposes, it is an expensive process when everything goes smoothly and there is no guarantee that will be the case for your mare/foal. In fact, things seem to go wrong just as often as they go right and it can rack up the vet bills quick lol Also consider the emotional cost if something were to happen. You may loose your mare, the foal or both. They may end up with a problem which requires intensive vet care/surgery/hospitalization to correct which might not be a financially viable option and might require you to make a tough decision. Of course you always hope that is not the case, but you mustn't disregard the risks.
The foal would probably not be an alluring sales prospect based on bloodlines alone, so it becomes extra important to make sure that foal grows into a useful member of society. Good quality training goes a long way in securing a horse's future should anything happen and is a vital part of raising young horses. I believe you would be unlikely to sell the foal unless you really had to, but sometimes circumstance simply forces your hand


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

my concern would be the club foot, as it is very prone to being inherited. You already know as to what degree of management that takes!


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

Thanks everyone.

I agree, her canter probably will not open up more than it has. She does have SI issues, nothing that created a hunter's bump but for sure will require artificial maintenance (si injections) down the line. She can extend and collect her canter, though, so we are hoping for the best for this horse. She'll probably never "excel" in any discipline but I still love her even if she's not a ribbon winner. That horse will come along someday. 

I seriously appreciate everyone's comments. It's put a lot of things into important perspectives. I just want to help her find a retirement job that can benefit her  i don't KNOW how long this horse will stay sound and rideable, not because of her breeding but because of how broken and beaten she was as a young horse after racing, so I am thinking ahead and trying to map out her retirement plan. Being a broodmare was something I felt she could do.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Ability and handiness need to be looked at; heart factors in as well as enjoyment in the activity. If they come with poor conformation and you are cloning then you could get what you want. Mix in 50% DNA from another source and then that conformation becomes paramount. Sure there are some faults that work to your advantage depending on the discipline. Looking at the stallions prepotency as well as what he has been bred to and then looking at offspring of closely related mares (to your mare) when bred to similar or even that stallion will give you an idea of how your foal *might* turn out. If you have the ultimate competition horse that has won absolutely everything you have entered it in and this horse just keeps getting better but has the most abysmal conformation you have to ask yourself - do you bred like to like to hopefully get like or do you bred the exact opposite which means you will likely not come close to what you have - you may have better, you may have worse but you most definitely won't have the same. The other posters have made good points. She's a pretty mare. They have covered her faults. See how she does and then reevaluate. Ask yourself your goal and what worst case scenario are you willing to accept. Is the end result going to be worth that worst case since there are no guarantees on what you will end up with in a foal? Just about any female horse can "do" that job. Should she is a different question. I think you will make an educated decision when and if you decide the time is right.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, when looking at a broodmare, you eliminate faults caused by trauma, that has nothing to do with any conformation pre disposition to that fault
For instance, in a mare was un sound, totally due to an accident,improper training, I ignore that fault, as it won't breed on
On the othre hand, if you take the case of a true club foot, you are gambling heavily that the offspring won't be affected
For instance, I bred Charlie once, having no other choice, because her dam lost a breeding by transported semen, and my vet wanted to use a younger mare for that re -breeding.
Charlie was the only pleasure bred colored Appaloosa I had, to outcross to an AQHA stallion
I was never going to breed Charlie, for two reasons, a, I reached the point in my life where I was no longer raising young horses, and b, she has a club foot, which has not been an issue, as I manage it, but I also know it can be inherited, and just because a mare has a low grade, dose snot mean the offspring will, should that trait be passed on.
Her colt, is a very nice horse, is performing great, BUT, he did inherit the club foot, although very mild and manageable. Thus, I will never breed her again


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

Thanks @Smilie, those are very good points. I would assume the club is genetic, as it was the opposite foot that got injured.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

I've just read through the whole thread, and it's fascinating! Everyone is making good points, and I'm going to sit here learning right alongside you


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## Martiefranza1 (Nov 22, 2017)

I’m probably risking sounding like an ignorant, but... Are you wanting to breed her to get nto the breeding business or just have an offspring or two from her just because she is your mare?
I have an Arabian philly who has tremendous bloodlines. But if I bred her it would be a to have a baby or hers to keep when she’s gone. I also would like to breed her with a PRE not necessarily another Arabian. Then again, would not be doing this to sell any of the babies!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Bottom line, if you want a foal off your mare,one you wish to have for sentimental reasons, to keep, that is one thing, but to breed her just to give her a 'job', is not


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

If you are looking at this as a "job" then you are looking at the cost of keeping the mare (which you would have to a lesser degree anyway but if your horse is going to pay for herself then what you get for her babies needs to cover this cost as well), cost of breeding the mare, cost of raising the foal (what is your breakeven point) and cost of marketing the foal. On average mares reach peak fertility by 6 and start going downhill after 15. Your mare will be 8 this year? Good age to breed but you are looking at this as her retirement which says sometime down the road when she is older. She hasn't built a reputation for herself in any discipline so marketing with that in mind you are left with her bloodlines and the stallion's bloodlines and performance record as well as his progeny's records. That is if you sell at weaning. Keep it and put time and training into it then you have more costs to recoup. You also need the space to keep these babies if they don't sell or be willing to sell at a loss. Her "job" is your business and as a business owner you can't afford losses. There have been several threads on the cost to breed a mare and several articles that cover the topic as well. Just the basics for the breeding can reach 3-5K, on average with the mare catching first time and a reasonable price on the stud fee. Even if you could get the costs down what price would your market bear. Here really nicely bred foals are going for much less than the cost to breed. Why - because there are so many foals out there. Sure with the internet you aren't restricted to a local market but now you have increased the number of foals that are available to those willing to travel who knows how many fold. If you are looking at a one time breeding because you want a foal out of your mare to raise for your own purposes and can provide a forever home for then that isn't a job. It is a one time event and you now have two to care for.


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## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

I like her but I also LOVE the comments on this thread. Lots of awesome points.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

@thecolorcoal ah I would love to have a Katie-baby. With so many foaling threads I had a nightmare last night where I got a phone call and I was told she was having triplets!!!!!!!!!!! I nearly puked in my dream. In speaking with my instructor (who also breeds some lovely boys) she asked if I was interested. I have to say I would be tempted I WOULD honest to god love a baby. I am the sort of person that would breed once just to keep the next generation going and not to sell. BUT I couldn't do it I don't think. The risk is too high. I wouldn't even want to risk any horses' health just for a baby when so many out there need rescuing. But I am a hardcore sucker for that but if you're into competing I totally understand the want to bake a champion cake of your own  I don't know much about conformation (learned a lot from this thread alone) so just came to share my enthusiasm for wanting a 4 legged baby from your very own baby. But based of some replies for the competitive aspect I'd be put off I guess but for your own little cookie... hm.


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