# Nerving...



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

So...

This is so totally hypothetical that it hasn't even been mentioned to the vet or by the vet...But... I was wondering...


I have a couple friends that have nerved navicular horses, both of them owned lesson barns and that is what they used the horses for... As you know Ri-ri has navicular. He has been diagnosed for about 5 or 6 years now. We had the Tildren shot done when he was first diagnosed and since then he has had 2 Osphos shots. With proper shoeing and the light riding that we do with him everything has worked out great. He is sound for two to three months at a time and then will have a week to three weeks where he is off. It's not usually LAME, but off. When that happens I don't ride him. He gets buteless in his feed now and I'll slip him some bute when he is noticeably sore. He gets ridden at the house for 15-30 minutes - usually without a saddle even. I do on occassion take him for trail rides. I was THINKING about nerving him... but I can't really decide if there is a benefit AND... When he go's off or lame - that's telling me something... have the vet out, give him a break, whatever... If I nerve him... I lose that warning right? And if I nerve him - I don't know if it's advancing right?

I am right now just wondering if it's even something to ASK the vet about... Or if I should just continue on as is... I would like to haul him out for trail rides this summer... They would be walk and maybe trot....


----------



## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I am going to chime in as an owner of a Navicular horse. Our mare gets Osphos shots and wears Ground Control horse shoes. She is 21 this year and is used mainly for trail riding. She loves to go out and Osphos and the GC shoes have done wonders for her. She had wedges for awhile and it caused eventual shoulder issues where she appeared lame but it was not in the foot. So we had decided to retire her completely - and she was NOT happy! We also talked about nerving her but to be honest at the lesson barn my DH rides at they have horses that have been nerved and it is not a cure all. nerves grow back and other nerves take over for them and eventually the horse is lame again - sometimes worse. And the horse cannot feel part of its foot and for a trail horse that does not sound safe.

My suggestion is to talk seriously with your vet about nerving - educate yourself on hoof anatomy and possible reasons why your horse is Navicular (you may have done this so pardon this advice) 

As I mentioned our mare will be 21 this year she was a WP horse from 3 to 8 (with another owner) and when we got her at 9 she was already showing signs of lameness. She carried my husband faithfully until 2 years ago when we moved to gaited horses - now my daughters BF rides her about once a week and she looks great. When her Osphos is wearing off we may have to bute her before a ride but then we know it is time for her next shot.


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I rode a mare who had navicular...
She moved different than other horses but she was such a fantastic animal in movement those unknowing did not see it.
So, several things happened over the course of the horses riding/showing career before my boss came to own the mare...
A fast synopsis...
She was off, on her face sore and dead lame her changes were so sharp.
She was a "Medal/Maclay" show horse who competed at the elite level of shows jumping over 4' fences easily along with breathtaking movement on the flat.
With her "usefulness" now gone the former owners dumped her like you would garbage.. :evil:
My boss took her in and had her farrier work in partnership with the vet, new and accurate x-rays to shoe her differently..yes, she wore shoes on all 4.
So, feet were trimmed in particular ways and then she wore regular shoes, no wide-web aluminum, bar-shoes, no anything other than steel out of the box fitted to her foot.
And she was moving sound and happy. We only know her gait was slightly different from what it was years earlier from video seen but she moved nicer than many horses even with navicular.
Over time she progressed in her affliction/disease.
Eventually it was time to make a decision of euthanize or nerve....
We are referring to a 10 - 12 year old horse...a decision to try the nerving.
However, it was _not_ a full nerving but partial nerving so the horse still had some feel of where it placed its feet so safer to ride than a horse with full nerving and no idea of where the foot is or if it landed safely or not...that is a dangerous thought if you think about it.
Partial nerving done, recovery and back to being a ridden horse that made this horses existence happy..she hated being t/o...she thrived on riding time.
What we encountered over a few years time is the nerves can grow back as balls of nerves and can be very painful.
Those balls of nerves need to be addressed by a really talented vet team...
Twice we had that occur to our mare, both times it was addressed and both times it worked.
When it came back a third time the mare was now 21 and was still a healthy animal but not so happy going to work...so she was made comfortable at that time by a full nerving of both front feet and retired to babysit Thoroughbred babies just weaned.
Last I knew she is now about 28/29 and still healthy and still babysitting and teaching youngsters manners in a herd situation in manicured pastures.

So, moral to my long story is navicular can affect but there are many ways to prolong comfort of a horse and use-ability that keep both horse and rider safe while "working"
There are many new drugs and treatments available today that allow a combination approach to lengthen the life quality and reduce the pain/discomfort of the animal immensely.
First defense though is a vet with a great understanding of the disease and a farrier who excels in corrective shoeing and a willingness to work together with all of you to better quality of life and give quantity at the same time.
Progressive diseases though do come with a price...for some not having the resources of talent to work magic is a problem and it is expensive, no way around that.
Look to see what avenues of talent are in your area to utilize for making the horse comfortable...
When comfortable is no longer attainable by realistic means then decisions need made to stop, finalize the pain of the animal you care and love...euthanasia.
But to give a pain-reduced or pain-free time, to extend the quality of life for the horse....how do you ever go wrong with that thought.
Those teaching universities might be on the fore-front of research and rehabilitation for the navicular horse might be someplace to look into hauling to get help from too...

Look into partial nerving...my understanding is depending upon where the pin-point of issue is depends upon success in alleviating the pain or not.
I don't know if freezing, {long term nerve blocks} are still a viable option done...at one time it bought time of no-pain, but a good technician working that freezing agent, a clear path of which nerve branch needed applied but freezing also left the horse full feeling of their hoof placement.
It was ugly to look at and required daily care as it healed but other than a lessening of hair...unknown it was done.
I am _not_ a fan of full nerving if you intend to ever sit on the animal again.
No feeling at all in the hoof is just to risky for the animal ridden if they step on uneven ground let alone catch a toe or find a deeper divvet in the ground...you're down and probably flipped over with a 1000 pounds of screaming, struggling and scared to death horse fighting to get on their feet...not pretty.
Please be well informed of all the pitfalls and pros of any choice in treatment you decide upon.
Even consider what it means if full retirement is decided for a horse who can not feel where they place their feet.

_I so wish Smilie was here..._
I knew she had a severely afflicted horse, her heart horse. 
She lived and breathed knowledge acquired because no one else knew enough.
She took on learning the hoof mapping and dynamics as what was being told to her to do was just unconscionable...
I believe she may have written threads here about how with certain farrier work done a reversal was achieved to bring pain relief to a horse retired but no longer a campaigning or heavily ridden one..
She learned to do her horses feet as a result of not having anyone who would do what she wanted...so did it herself.
Starts with hoof mapping and understanding what your horses feet tell...
Oh Smilie...if you could only share some of that wisdom.

I did find you this article...a good read and telling of nerving by a professional rider.
_https://www.horsetalk.co.nz/2015/07/19/nerving-posterior-digital-neurectomy-farriers-view/_
Good luck farmpony....this is a tough one.
:runninghorse2:...


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

@carshon What are the Ground Control boots? Can he wear boots with shoes? or would I pull the shoes? He isn't in wedges - the didn't work quite right for us. He is in a barshoe (steel - not aluminum). 

I will get another Osphos shot in the spring... probably February or March timeframe. It's expensive but I do think it's worth it. I see a big difference with it.

He was lame last week because of the mud and the yuck. In fact he just pulled a shoe but it's been raining and we had the holidays and a sick horse and I just didn't have the farrier out. I will have to call him this week. If I leave him out 24/7 he stays sound for the most part but because it's been the wettest year in the history of wet years... He's been coming in every night so he is always stiff in the mornings...


----------



## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

Once I had a mare called Sassy. She was really a spectacular horse, and I was competing super horse on her and winning. Anyways, she came up with nevicular and was only 11. I decided, since I rode too hard and had heard negative things about nerving, to give her away as a broodmare.

The person I gave her to realized what a prize she had, and she went to using her rather than breeding her. Sadly, when she needed some money she sold the mare. 

I look back on the decision I made regretfully. I chose not to nerve the mare because I didn’t want her to stumble and I didn’t want to make it worse without knowing. As I later thought on it, and met some horses who were nerved, I thought that if a shortened lifespan without pain was the trade for a longer life with pain, there should have been no hesitation on my part. 

Last I heard the mare was still competing, and you know, I hope they nerved her.  She was a very nice mare.


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Ground Controls are shoes. im using them on my 33 year old gelding. i dont have to give him pain meds anymore because of mild arthritis because of the shoes. they also last at least 6 months worth of resets so not too expensive in the long term. when my first vet said my arab was navicular i used them on her for instant positive results. LOVE them and id rather use them than metal shoes for many reasons.

https://www.plastichorseshoes.com/


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

How do they stay on in the mud? I have muddy paddocks. We have been TRYING to get them dryer and plan to add drain tiles but right now... muddy....


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

they are nail on shoes. they stay ON.


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I ask because I couldn't keep aluminums on in my muddy paddocks which is why i went to the steel.


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

if they get pulled off you can use drywall screws to put them on. if the farrier can catch the nails good should not be an issue. my arab spins and pivots on her back end like a reiner so she has opulled shoes off but not these. now our last farrier could not get the nails set good and our 33 year old almost pulled one off. my fiance put them on this time and they have not moved. another option are Duplo shoes. they are easier to nail on (more like a metal shoe) they dont flex as much but are still better than a metal shoe. i have used them on my paint and i LOVE them. they just dont last as long as the GC shoes. the miller ranch helped develop their arizona line for the fox trotters. they turn their horses into mountian goats and ride them in places i would NEVER go. so they stay on and grip well.

https://duplo-mt.com/


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I will mention them to my farrier. Riley has tiny feet and they are always breaking. He has a hard time finding enough to nail into most of the time. Riley is well over 16 hands. His feet are smaller than his mothers and she is 14.3.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

farmpony84 said:


> I have a couple friends that have nerved navicular horses, both of them owned lesson barns and that is what they used the horses for... As you know Ri-ri has navicular. He has been diagnosed for about 5 or 6 years now. We had the Tildren shot done when he was first diagnosed and since then he has had 2 Osphos shots. With proper shoeing and the light riding that we do with him everything has worked out great. He is sound for two to three months at a time and then will have a week to three weeks where he is off. It's not usually LAME, but off. When that happens I don't ride him. He gets buteless in his feed now and I'll slip him some bute when he is noticeably sore. He gets ridden at the house for 15-30 minutes - usually without a saddle even. I do on occassion take him for trail rides. I was THINKING about nerving him... but I can't really decide if there is a benefit AND... When he go's off or lame - that's telling me something... have the vet out, give him a break, whatever... If I nerve him... I lose that warning right? And if I nerve him - I don't know if it's advancing right?
> 
> I am right now just wondering if it's even something to ASK the vet about... Or if I should just continue on as is... I would like to haul him out for trail rides this summer... They would be walk and maybe trot....



I've considered it for my horse Red. He does not have any bony changes, but his front feet hurt. If I would actually do it, I would get an MRI first. This next year, I'm going to try to see how he responds to PEMF treatments (never done it before). And then possibly try ProStride injections if needed. But I kinda keep the denerving in the back of my mind.


I'm trying to remember your horse. How old is he again? And he obviously has bony changes?


Realize that denerving is not permanent. My vet has seen it last as little as 6 months, although 1 to 2 years is probably average. I'm told anything longer than 2 years is considered "bonus". The nerves WILL regenerate over time. And, at the most, you can only repeat the procedure 3 times (if that) and there is just too much scar tissue after that. 



Again, I would also strongly recommend an MRI is done before you do it, so you can see what the soft tissue is doing deep in the foot. There are some things that would contraindicate the denerving. 



It won't make the whole foot numb, which some people incorrectly think, but just the heel will be numb, which is the source of pain for most horses.


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

can you post xrays? my arab was diagnosed as "navicular" but turns out her front feet issues where ingrown bars (did not even know it was a thing) and once i corrected that she was actually sound enough to ride.


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

@beau159 This one is Riley. He is my Bay AQHA. I showed him all-around, he even has points in HUS and equitation (english) but he ended up being diagnosed when he was about 7 I think it was. He's 12 now. I haven't had him x-rayed or had an MRI in a while. I think they did an ultrasound too when we were diagnoising him. I would get new x-rays to see what changes have occured.


----------



## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

@farmpony84 Please look into overgrown bars as well for your gelding. We did look into this with our Navicular mare and with some better trimming she found some relief that way. But 2 sets of x-rays have shown continued degeneration so she wears Ground Control shoes in the summer and goes barefoot in the winter. it is also extremely muddy here and she has had great luck keeping her shoes on in all kinds of terrain.

We will not do nerving for our mare because where we live there are very few true equine vets - and something like that should only be done by a pro.


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

@carshon We have 3 equine hospitals within an hour. A friend of mine took hers to the race track because it's cheaper but with Ri-ri... if something can go wrong - it will so he would go to one of the overnight hospitals. I may talk to them. It just is a scary thing for me... The idea of taking away the feeling but since I'm not planning to jump or do anything wild I think it's probably a good thing to look into.

We used to do the aluminum wedge shoes but they wouldn't stay on so my farrier started making him steel wedges but then he wanted to experiment so he has him in a steel heart bar. We had pads on him for a while but he's been doing really well with these shoes. The only problem is that it is SO muddy right....


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

farmpony84 said:


> he ended up being diagnosed when he was about 7 I think it was. He's 12 now.



Just like my Red. Also diagnosed his heel pain at 7, and he is currently 12 as well. 


He was "out" this entire year for a totally unrelated issue, so I'm anxious/excited for spring to see how he feels. 



If you haven't had x-rays done on Riley recently, that would be my first step. Did he have bony changes? I would be nice to see what the Osphos is doing (or not doing) for him. I assume you are seeing your vet somewhat regular anyway for blood work? I can't remember exactly, but its possible it can mess with calcium?? potassium?? liver ... or kidney ... or something. _My brain is foggy today._

Have you ever done steroid injections? Of course they aren't technically treating the cause, but just calm down the inflammation and possibly help them feel better.
Does your vet offer ProStride or similar? (I was going to try this last year for Red, but then he came up with his other issue and needed time off anyway.)


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

So... I did Adequan for a while. Seems like I did it for a couple years and that stuff was expensive. I called it liquid gold because of the cost... Then I did the Tildren shot. It was really expensive and at the time it wasn't FDA approved so the vet had to send the x-rays and a letter requesting permission to administer it. If I remember right, it came from Englad. I had to take him to the clinic and he stayed overnight. I did see results but when I asked about getting it again they had moved on to Osphos as the new best thing. So I got that one. It was alot cheaper and I felt like I had better results from it. I have gotten the Osphos shot twice now. I'll get it again in the spring.

I do have x-rays on a CD somewhere. I was going to search threads because I thought I had posted them here way back. I will want to get new x-rays to see what if any changes have occured but I have to admit... I'm a little scared....


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

farmpony84 said:


> He has been diagnosed for about 5 or 6 years now. We had the Tildren shot done when he was first diagnosed and since then he has had 2 Osphos shots. With proper shoeing and the light riding that we do with him everything has worked out great. He is sound for two to three months at a time and then will have a week to three weeks where he is off.


Don't recall details sorry, can you ref. to a thread with info? Or tell what state his feet are, how progressed the prob, how old the horse, what you've tried etc?

'Navicular disease' is not always able to be rehabbed, depending on how far gone, but it very often is, and is a quite slowly progressing condition, and conventional 'treatments' are all only palliative rather than geared towards actual correction/rehab (because it has been previously considered untreatable). 

Therefore I'd generally suggest(bearing in mind i dont recall your horses details) you give actual rehab a very good try, and then you can always resort to measures to keep him comfortable as long as possible, such as shoes, shots etc, if nothing else works.



> I was THINKING about nerving him... but I can't really decide if there is a benefit AND... When he go's off or lame - that's telling me something... have the vet out, give him a break, whatever... If I nerve him... I lose that warning right? And if I nerve him - I don't know if it's advancing right?


I'd consider de-nerving as an absolute last resort. Doing so means the horse just ceases to feel their feet, so yes, you won't 'feel' the progression or any other hoof issues he may have. At least until nerves grow back & the process needs repeating. Any palliative measure without addressing the cause IS going to allow the actual problems to get worse. It WILL continue to advance.

I also would not personally ride a horse that cant feel it's feet. But I wouldn't generally ride a 'navicular' horse who was only treated palliatively either.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

loosie said:


> I'd consider de-nerving as an absolute last resort. *Doing so means the horse just ceases to feel their feet,* so yes, you won't 'feel' the progression or any other hoof issues he may have.
> 
> I also would not personally ride a horse *that cant feel it's feet.*



In most cases, this is incorrect. Usually, the horse's entire foot is NOT numb. Most vets that do a neurectomy are only removing the nerve that innervates the very back of the hoof, for the heel. The sides and toe still have feeling. So I feel it's misleading to say "the horse can't feel its feet" because that is not entirely correct.



But yes, correct in that it will lessen the owner/rider's ability to tell if the horse is "off", because a small portion of the horse's hoof will be numb (the heel) and obviously the horse will not feel pain in that specific area.


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

loosie said:


> Therefore I'd generally suggest(bearing in mind i dont recall your horses details) you give actual rehab a very good try, and then you can always resort to measures to keep him comfortable as long as possible, such as shoes, shots etc, if nothing else works.


I was using a younger farrier that followed the vets advice to a tee but his feet were basically crumbling because the aluminum shoes kept coming off so I switched to a master farrier. He followed the vets direction as well but we had so many issues that he changed from the aluminums from steel. In the begining he was making the wedge shoes, I mean actually heating and bending and building the shoe from a bar because Ri had 2 different sized feet that weren't matched to pre-made shoes. We did pads and wedges and other things but then my farrier asked if he could experiment so I said yes.

He made the shoes - they are pretty much like heart bars (steel). He went 98-100 percent sound within a few months and he stays sound most of the time. Right now he is lame because it is so muddy out and I'm bringing him in every night to dry his feet out. He does better when he is not confined in a stall.

So he is being treated with good hoof care. I did the adequan shots, the tildren shot, and nowI do the Osphos about once per year. It helps as well. He also is on daily doses of "buteless". I do have isoxuprine but I'm not sure if it works or not. I also have magnetic bell boots that I have not been using because of the mud.


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

farmpony84 said:


> I do have isoxuprine but I'm not sure if it works or not. I also have magnetic bell boots that I have not been using because of the mud.



I too have done the Isoxsuprine for several horses....
50 tablets 2x a day and saw "0" difference it made.
Can't prove it by me it helped.
However I also removed some of those horses from that drug per owners directive and vets directive and still saw "0" improvement on the animals...
Maybe for other ailments but not what those animals had did it make a difference imo. :frown_color:
:runninghorse2:...


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

beau159 said:


> In most cases, this is incorrect. Usually, the horse's entire foot is NOT numb. Most vets that do a neurectomy are only removing the nerve that innervates the very back of the hoof, for the heel. The sides and toe still have feeling. So I feel it's misleading to say "the horse can't feel its feet" because that is not entirely correct.


Ok yes I didn't specify that, perhaps should have done. I just dont feel it's really relevant.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

So he has only been treated palliatively with conventional methods? Here's one source to learn more about treatments geared towards rehab... 
https://barehoofcare.com/index.php/home-on-the-range/lameness-rehab/navicular-syndrome/


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

loosie said:


> I also would not personally ride a horse that cant feel it's feet.
> 
> 
> Ok yes I didn't specify that, perhaps should have done. I just dont feel it's really relevant.



I do feel it is relevant because if a person is going to continue to ride said horse anyway, it might actually be SAFER to ride a horse that has had a neurectomy. Reason being, the horse may land more correctly (flat-footed) rather than possibly landing toe-first if the horse is trying to avoid pain. A horse that lands toe-first is at risk of tripping/stumbling and potentially falling. 



Of course, it's up to the horse owner and/or vet on the decision to do a neurectomy in the first place, but in most cases it is perfectly fine to ride one that has had a neurectomy and (as I mentioned) possibly safer.


----------



## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

KigerQueen said:


> Ground Controls are shoes. im using them on my 33 year old gelding. i dont have to give him pain meds anymore because of mild arthritis because of the shoes. they also last at least 6 months worth of resets so not too expensive in the long term. when my first vet said my arab was navicular i used them on her for instant positive results. LOVE them and id rather use them than metal shoes for many reasons.
> 
> https://www.plastichorseshoes.com/


I have looked at these before. I have a few questions I hope that you can answer.

1. Do they give "too much" grip so that the horse is unable to slide to a stop.

2. I notice that they are longer in the back than some shoes. Does your horse not overreach and pull them off? 

3. Have you put them on with the screws? If so, how did it work out?


----------



## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

@Celeste I can answer some of your Ground Control questions - we have used them for a couple of years now. When my farrier sets my shoes he uses his nippres and trims off any over hang. Our mare's shoes do not over hang in the back like KIger Queens do - I am not saying hers are wrong - just that mine are not set that way.

We trail ride so I do not expect my mare to do any kind of maneuvers like a reining horse slide/stop. We have not found them to have too much grip but have found that they are not as slippery on wet grass as metal shoes.

My farrier looked at demos with the dry wall screws but for our application we used regular nails. And one set of shoes lasted us an entire riding season (APril - end of Oct) The shoes wore down like a metal shoe but not as fast and they seemed to always keep their shock absorption. Our mare does not grow a heel much at all but had to have shoe resets every 6 weeks to keep her toes back (Navicular) and the shoes are a pain to remove (you can rip through them) but my farrier got the hang of it and even became a local dealer because he started using them on other horses.

I don't have pics of the shoes on our mare but we have had fun with the colors and had blue, pink and black. We do not recommend the black - it was too hard to see debris and the foot.

Hope this helps


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Agree with all the above. You can trim the shoe up quite a but. We left a little extra on my Arab to alow for hoof expansion. Metal shoes can cause the hooves to close up a bit. The GC are like being barefoot and alow the hoof to open and flex. My arab is short strided in the back so no worries of over reaching. Rocket has not either but his are trimmed more because he has not had metal shoes on for a while. Rocket can still run buck spin and slide to a stop no issues. They are also amazing on pavement. The horse is almost silent. Now we dont use the screws because our horses are mostly just hanging out and are not doing anything crazy. If I start really showing odie and have issues with the shoes staying on ill use the screws but untill then the tails work fine.

As for removeing them they can be a pain. But we have a nail puller and that makes it alot easier. And as stated. They last a LONG time. Longer than boots honestly.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Celeste said:


> 1. Do they give "too much" grip so that the horse is unable to slide to a stop.


IME of Easyshoes & Eponas, they aren't more grippy than steel shoes, except on bitumen/concrete when they do seem marginally more grippy - which is good. But if you want to do sliding stops, you should have special sliders on the horse.


> 2. I notice that they are longer in the back than some shoes. Does your horse not overreach and pull them off?


They should be cut back to the correct length/width for each hoof, they shouldn't be left longer - that just happens if they're not trimmed correctly - and yes, as with steel shoes, leaving them hanging out the back will make it more likely for fronts to be ripped off by backs.



> 3. Have you put them on with the screws? If so, how did it work out?


I have only nailed on, haven't tried screws.


----------

