# Jockey Trotting



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

The jockeys have such short stiruup irons that when they do that trotting you are talking about, there feet are literally on almost up to the stirrup bar of the the saddle. It's like they are almost standing on top of the horse's back.

Do you know how to post in the standard way?


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Yeah, I know about the jock stirrups. But I am thinking about if it is possible with legs more straightened and forward, and obviously, with stirrups down.

Yes, I can post the conventional way. It's just that I have bad knees, and it hurts for some reason and I tend to stiffen my legs during posting against the pain. (It lessens if my legs are straight.) So I am looking for a way to modify the post so that I don't bang so much on the horse's back, since I have a rougher post with the stiffness in my legs.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

MyBoyPuck recently started a thread describing an exercise that I think you will find very helpful! Even the jocks/trackwork riders start with stirrups a little longer to condition the leg muscles, it is bloody hard work!

Here's the thread:
http://www.horseforum.com/english-riding/want-strong-leg-89540/

Get ready for the burn...

ETA: Just read your second post, not sure if that exercise will help after all, might just put you in more pain. Perhaps can be modified to suit you though?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Are you talking about having your knees around your ears in jockey position, or just simply a two-point? If it's a simple two point, you need bend in your legs - your knees and ankles are shock absorbers. There are lots of threads in the Jumping section about attaining a great, balanced two-point.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

JDI beat me to it. Curious if you're looking for a half seat or two point versus actual jockey poistion












Versus










If pain is your issue, have you tried jointed or swiveling stirrups to reduce torque on the knee?


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Actually, something between the two: much closer to half-seat, but so that my butt is actually not coming down on the horse, so that I can have a bit more bounce but not hurt the horse. I actually don't know if such a thing exists. 

In regard to leg exercises. I have really strong legs. I am an old marathon runner (hence the bad knees), and I can ride bareback for hours with no pain. I can even post a trot well bareback. It is trying to do it with stirrups that makes my knees hurt for some reason. I have tried longer and shorter stirrups.

I don't know if I am seeking the right way around it or not. During the post with stirrups, I brace my feet, and my knees hurt. Then I want to straighten the legs. I stiffen a bit, and the post becomes bouncy (not terribly).


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

^^Wasn't suggesting you didn't have a strong leg. If you read the exercise it was pretty close to what you were originally describing in your first post :wink:

If it is your knees that are the problem, could you sit the trot rather than remain out of the saddle? That seems like it would have less stress on the knees no matter which way you look at it.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Why not sit the trot? 

Here is a more exagerated two point (or may be half seat? I have a hard time telling): 










This may actually make it hurt a but more though. 

Do you have a picture or better yet video? Are you riding english or western? What is your stirrup length like? Your position in the stirrups may be hurting your knees, and it may be a matter of tweaking your equitation. 

Leg strength and knee strength are going to be different. As a runner, your knees have taken tons of impact, and I'm not surprised you have pain. I have very poor knees myself and have found making sure my stirrups are turned and supple in a western saddle has helped or you could try EZ Ride Stirrups. English, jointed stirrups help me.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

It's not uncommon. Have you tried different stirrups, such as EZ knees or flexi-stirrups?
If you see a physiotherapist, they might be able to give you some exercises that will translate to the saddle. They will be able to see what the problem is, or at least be able to better discern the problem and give you some suggestions as to position and flexibility. If you tense your joint, that is generally going to make the problem worse.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Good suggestions all! Thanks. What are the EZ stirrups and how will that help?


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Spastic Dove. That is pretty much what I was picturing, only with a straigher leg. What I am envisioning might not be possible, though. I have had the stirrups all up and down the line, up and down. I am shopping for saddles, so I am not yet settled between W and E. Probably western. I have less pain with the stirrups long, but not enough stability. I have more stability with the stirrups shorter, but more pain.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Knees and ankles are shocks for your two-point. Straightening your leg would not only be not terribly functional, but it would transfer the shock to your hip & back, and create a really uncomfortable ride. Beyond that, straightening your leg would make your tib and femur bang on one another; the knee is supposed to be "elastic" if you will, and absorb the shock - take that movement away, and you're pounding more pressure on your femur and tibia. Think of jumping on the spot and landing with your knees bent vs. straight - much more impact on the joint if you don't allow your knee to absorb that shock. If you stiffen one area, you're going to compensate elsewhere. 
http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=51ecc55d-44e0-430b-adbe-6bbd3cf7fec5
http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=806fb9ef-fe93-455e-b801-ba22a4f79344
http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=3da5ad09-4927-4d2d-9a93-3cad5a7e5862
http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp?pn=X1-07077&EID=X172235G1&TID=GOOGLE%2dN (cheap knockoffs available.)


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Yeah, I think you are right, Dressage. I have to find a way to get my knees not to ache with conventional stirrup length (though I like the looks of the two-point and still want to try it).


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

And thanks for the links on the EZs. Will have to try that.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

You`re talking with someone recovering from her second knee surgery. Heh. The flexi-stirrups helped a lot, when I could ride.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

DS, when I saw your video of you riding in the saddle on Sassy I kind of picked up on your having your feet kind of rigidly braced out in front of you a bit, which is so different from how you ride bareback. I am wondering if you cannot not approach saddle riding as just the same as bareback. 

First, try riding in the western saddle with your feet hanging out of the stirrups so you get used to sitting in it but still balance in that natural way one does in bareback. 
Then, have your stirrups just long enough that all you do is lift the front of your foot, as high as you can wihtout using your hands to force it up, and tuck it into your stirrup.
The trick is to NOT change the way you sit in the saddle and to NOT put any more weight into the stirrup and the weight of your foot just haning on it. Your leg just rests there. If you push hard enough to lift the fender off the side of the horse, you are pushing too hard. Ride by your seat, just as you do so nicely in bareback, with legs haning right down under you and stirrups having very little to do with it.

I don't have marathon runner's knee, so forgive me if I make is sound SO EASY!


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

O, I think you are right tinyliny. And I think the idea of riding the saddle without the stirrups for a while is a good idea. I was actually surprised that it was harder for me to post the trot in the saddle than it was bareback. And again, I think you are right. I am relying too much on the stirrups as something to brace against, when I ought to just have the same balance I have developed over the last year going bareback.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Well, I have to say that now I think I must spend some time bareback. The one and only time I rode Mac out int he woods bareback (on a pad), he did one of his famous "stop,drop and spin" and I found the ground. Nothingt new for me, but I dont' feel confident to ride out bareback. However, I could ride in our round pen. (we have no arena)

Also, it is possible that THAT saddle has a design that puts the rider way to much into a "chair" seat, which makes posting challenging. A lot of western saddles are this way. My friend has a Crates saddle that has great balance. I can post very easily in it, all day. My Billy Cook is OK, but puts me a wee bit more chair seated (however, with Mac being a spinner, I need my feet more forward)


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## serafina (May 5, 2011)

I thought 2-point and half-seat were the same thing...?

OP: It sounds like you're asking about trotting in half-seat. (This next bit is something my trainer had drummed into my head over and over and over and...)

If your butt is hitting the saddle when you're moving the horse forward in half-seat, it means you are not properly balanced. The idea, I believe, is to hover over the seat on a fairly steady basis while still reining and using leg controls. Unfortunately, I waffle between hitting the saddle with my butt and with my hoo-hoo, so I can't remember whether butt-hitting-seat means that my legs are too far back or too far foward (since I hear both of those on a pretty regular basis, LOL).

I find trotting in a half-seat to be a heck of a lot more comfortable than walking in a half-seat, but I'd say that both of them are pretty taxing on the knees.

Maybe it would be better, given what you said about your knees, to learn to sit the trot smoothly? (easier said than done, I know)


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Now all I want is a translation of "hoo hoo" ; )


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Spastic_Dove said:


> Why not sit the trot?
> 
> Here is a more exagerated two point (or may be half seat? I have a hard time telling):
> 
> ...


That's the exercise my instructor makes me do & she calls this the 2 point seat. First few times was a killer, you don't sit your butt on the saddle, you stay in that position, hovering above the horse. It elongates your calf muscles and great for putting your legs in the correct position. I had ligament graft knee surgery a year & a half ago and this exercise does not harm the knee at all, if anything it builds the muscle around it to support it. I would try this one D, see if it helps, also the stirrups suggested above as well, I have those flex ones, would def. recommend them too.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Thank you, Waresbear. I tried this last night. I liked the feel of it, though some busy-body criticized me for doing it in a Western saddle.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I take it you board at a stable? What is with people? On this forum I heard of fellow competitors taunting others, flicking lit matches at others, etc. Now critizing another boarder at a stable on how they are riding? Holy Hannah! I must be concentrating too hard on my riding cuz I have never seen any of this.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Yes, I board. We have quite a group. Believe it or not--and you won't given my activity on the other thread! ; ) I usually keep my mouth shut. At least at the barn. But we do have people with lots of unsolicited advice.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I believe you, online personalities & face to face personalities, in my experience anyways don't always match up.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

DSJ46 said:


> Yes, I board. We have quite a group. Believe it or not--and you won't given my activity on the other thread! ; ) I usually keep my mouth shut. At least at the barn. But we do have people with lots of unsolicited advice.


 
Most likely they are women who do not have to worry about protecting certain "parts". My trainer (a guy-who is an old cowboy type) does this ALL the time in a western saddle at the trot, especially on a green horse who has not perfected the nice slow jog yet. Some of them even post in a western saddle! :shock: **Horrors**

You ride your horse however you want to. I have been at hunter/jumper barns (only because a friend was the manager) with a horse who I actually rode english, but, who I had done lots of NH with. I could hear them all gasping when I was doing my groundwork....but after about a week, I caught them watching......:wink: then they started asking how I got my horse to do that.......


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## serafina (May 5, 2011)

DSJ46 said:


> Now all I want is a translation of "hoo hoo" ; )


:lol: You bounce backward, you hit your butt. You bounce forward, it's the hoo-hoo.  It's the sound you make when that part of your anatomy smacks into the saddle on a trot. Hoo! Hoo! hoohoohoohoohoohoohoo...

This is not the first time I've heard about someone in a Western saddle getting hassled for posting or two-pointing in it. I do not know why people feel so...passionately...on this subject. But they certainly do. Google it and just see the massive flame wars that have been archived for posterity.

Glad you are finding something that works for you. I find that 2-pointing at the trot is a heck of a lot easier on my knees than 2-pointing at a walk.


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