# Riding Position



## Colby Jack Seige (Feb 1, 2016)

Hay y'all! I've got some very beginner questions to ask... I've been riding for about a year now (consistently, I rode a little when I was a kid, but nowhere near this much), and every trainer thats seen me ride always gives me the same passing critique, I sit like I'm sitting on a recliner. Now, I don't know if it's because I've just gotten used to shoving my foot too far in the stirrup or what, but it's driving me nuts. 
I don't have a trainer that I pay to have lessons with, I just ride for pleasure. I want to get to higher jumps, which I know CJ (my horse) can do, but I just need to work on my own position with flatwork first. I've attached pictures so you can tell me what you see. 
Thanks!

















Edit>>P.S. My trainer brought up my long femurs in relation to the rest of my body if that helps.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

You'll want a saddle that fits you to accommodate for that long femur, then adjust you stirrups accordingly. 
Once that saddle isn't hindering you, it is a lot of muscle memory and forcing you leg back there. Bring your leg under you, feel what that feels like, and focus and maintaining that feel. You should feel their belly against your ankles, vs the nothing that is there now. Feel the stretch through the thigh. It can help to walk without stirrups and leg the thigh hang down then get your stirrups back from there. 
Two point. Resist the reaction to put the leg forward as a counter balance in the two point. Keep your leg in the right spot and try opening and closing your hip angle. It's hard, use your core! 
You don't need to do anything over a walk while you retrain yourself. Just takes dedication.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

interesting. that is EXACTLY what I thought , the second I saw that second photo: that your saddle is too small for you.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

The saddle is definitely a bit small for you. Your legs look like they're too far forward, because it's too small. Once you get into a saddle that fits you properly (& the horse of course), you'll be able to work on your position better. It's much easier to work on your position when you can sit comfortably!  You don't look too bad though.


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## Colby Jack Seige (Feb 1, 2016)

ApuetsoT said:


> You'll want a saddle that fits you to accommodate for that long femur, then adjust you stirrups accordingly.
> Once that saddle isn't hindering you, it is a lot of muscle memory and forcing you leg back there. Bring your leg under you, feel what that feels like, and focus and maintaining that feel. You should feel their belly against your ankles, vs the nothing that is there now. Feel the stretch through the thigh. It can help to walk without stirrups and leg the thigh hang down then get your stirrups back from there.
> Two point. Resist the reaction to put the leg forward as a counter balance in the two point. Keep your leg in the right spot and try opening and closing your hip angle. It's hard, use your core!
> You don't need to do anything over a walk while you retrain yourself. Just takes dedication.





tinyliny said:


> interesting. that is EXACTLY what I thought , the second I saw that second photo: that your saddle is too small for you.


Oh gosh... :frown: Im not really in a position where I could afford another saddle... And just a lengthening of the stirrups wouldn't do it? None of my trainers said anything about incorrect saddle size to me, and both have been in the horse business for 70 years combined...

Let me figure out how to post a video of me riding to see if that will show anything different...


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

Could you borrow a saddle from a barn friend or something maybe? Like, just to use while you ride not to keep? Posting a video sounds good though!


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## Colby Jack Seige (Feb 1, 2016)

See, I think I'm just sitting back too far with my feet too far in the stirrups... It looks kinda painful for my boy :/ Maybe I could put a folded up towel under the saddle to get me propped up in a better position?


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Nothing is going to help because the seat size is too small. See how you are basically sitting on the cantle? You also need a saddle with forward, or even xforward flaps to accommodate your long leg.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

Yes, you have long legs and that saddle is just not a good fit for you. I can't imagine it being comfortable, your trainer definitely needs to see that it is too small of a seat. I think your riding position would improve if you were in a different/bigger saddle by far. It'll be easier for you!


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## Colby Jack Seige (Feb 1, 2016)

ApuetsoT said:


> Nothing is going to help because the seat size is too small. See how you are basically sitting on the cantle? You also need a saddle with forward, or even xforward flaps to accommodate your long leg.


Well gosh... Thanks anyways guys. Maybe I'll get some money for christmas and I can save up for a used saddle. I swear I thought I measured correctly.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Saddle fitting approaches being an art form, more than a science.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

And you have to fit the horse and yourself. Double whammy.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

welcome to the long femur club!

It can be argued at the saddle is a bit short for you but, I think it is more because of the way you are hanging your legs and takingmway to much weight in your stirrups. You are jamming your heels down which is making you a) put to much weigh in the irons, b) turning your whole leg out. 

The modern way of teaching people get told that you shouldn't grip with your knees, this I agree with but your knee should be against the saddle. 

As,younare riding at the moment bracing against the iron is going to push your knee higher than it would naturally be. 
A very simple but extremely good exercise for you to practise is when you mount and many times whilst riding, place a hand under your thigh from behind and pull the muscle to the back. This places your inner leg flat against the saddle, knee flat, toes forward and most importantly, leg back. 

Do it with and without stirrups, practise a lot of sitting trot, take your reins in one hand, place two fingers under the pommel and pull up, this will get you sitting deep and with your leg flat you will feel a big difference. It will also bring your seat bones under you. 

I would be interested to see some pictures of you immediately after you have pulled your thighs back. Bet your saddle doesn't look to small if you get it right.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm not an English rider. I still use an Australian saddle sometimes, so take this FWIW...and I'll delete this screen capture in a week or so.








​ 
Don't know about saddle size. But your feet are going forward because your center of gravity is not over the stirrups. Draw a vertical line up from your stirrup. Since most of you is behind that line, your stirrups slide forward. Any time you press hard into the stirrups with your center of gravity somewhere else, the stirrups will move (unless you grip elsewhere to hold your leg in place). Either bring your heel back under you, or lean your body forward more.


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

This saddle is definitely not helping your position, it's making you throw your feet out in front of you quite a bit. In this saddle you can't find a correct balance point, so your position will always be compromised and you'll always struggle to find a good position. 

The other thing that will help is getting a consistent rhythm with your boy. If you're going to sit the canter, you have to allow your body to move with him and relax your lower back. As is you're bracing against him and pumping/bouncing with your seat which is causing him to have a quick, sporadic rhythm. Until you fix the rhythm, you'll always struggle to get the correct distance jumping. It might help to stay in two point and sit a little more forward than you are but when he goes too quick and sporadic, think of slowing down the canter. Pull-release the contact smoothly. Anytime you pull back, get a reaction like him going slower or going back to trot and release as much as you take. Or if he doesn't pull-release, pull a little stronger get a reaction and give what you took. Or go back to trot when he gets too quick and ask again, trot again when he's too quick. It's much easier to find your balance and an effective position on a horse with a good rhythm which will help get him more balanced as well.

You may also need to bring your legs more under you, you may need to hold your legs out from the saddle as wide as you can and hold it and let them relax when you can't hold, hold your legs out again and let them relax. You may also need to stretch your psoas ( A Guide to Psoas and Iliopsoas Stretching | Stretchify.com ) so you can get your legs more under you. Also two point, before you two point checking that your heels are under you, shoulders up, looking where you're going and stay up for as long as possible. I'd actually shorten your stirrups and practice two point. You also need to allow your reins to come more in front of you, as is you're riding in a lot of backwards actions and getting behind the motion and backwards in your position.


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## Colby Jack Seige (Feb 1, 2016)

bsms said:


> I'm not an English rider. I still use an Australian saddle sometimes, so take this FWIW...and I'll delete this screen capture in a week or so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Foxhunter said:


> welcome to the long femur club!
> 
> It can be argued at the saddle is a bit short for you but, I think it is more because of the way you are hanging your legs and takingmway to much weight in your stirrups. You are jamming your heels down which is making you a) put to much weigh in the irons, b) turning your whole leg out.
> 
> ...



Jamming my feet into my stirrups has ALWAYS been an issue... Tons of trainers I've worked with constantly yell "heels down, heels down!!" so now it's a habit of mine. I'll be out riding soon, and I'll get my mom to take some pictures and video. I haven't adjusted stirrrup length, because they feel like the right length. I think it's probably me just being lazy and sitting on him like he's a chair...


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Another thing to look at re: saddle fit is the placement of the stirrup bar. Depending on what seat you ride in the placement will vary, as well as your conformation. Jumping saddles will have a more forward placement, dressage saddles further back. Looking at yours, it appears to be too far forward. Where you leg needs to lay, vs where the stirrup wants to sit, does not line up.

It took me about a month of constant supervision to get the muscle memory to keep my leg where it needed to be. Pretty much all at the walk, sitting and two pointing. Not exciting but it works.


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## Rock (Aug 23, 2016)

Sorry to say, your saddle is too short for you. Your stirrups are what i would class too long for "real" jumping, but in that saddle you will not correct your seat or your leg. I know it is only a snap shot, but there is a chance the saddle is also a little narrow on the horse, its sitting quite high at the front. You do have a long leg, so need a longer saddle and your horse looks like it can take it - but also try moving your own back a little as its sitting a bit to much on the shoulder. Your aim is to have your leg "under" you, never infront of you. You might need to have some lessons without stirrups or with VERY long ones to learn to get your leg under you cause in front of your can be a habit that you get from lack of balance. 

This rider (william fox-pitt) is very tall at 6ft4 with long legs, but you can see here he is still well behind the shoulder, and short stirrups. Horse is 16.3 for your info.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

bsms said:


> ​
> .


Look at the girl riding the light colored horse behind you in the second picture. That is the way you should be sitting...heels under your hips. 

If your horse was pulled out from under you, you would fall over because you look like you are in a recliner

The other girl would be standing in a crouched position if her horse was pulled out from under her.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Both Fox-Pitt and the little girl in the photo behind you have their leg behind them, probably cueing so I wouldn't strive for that position. Ideally, your stirrup leather will hang straight down as you weight it. Fox-Pitt is known for somewhat unorthodox riding so I wouldn't necessarily copy my leg position based on him...he's known to swing his leg behind in a pivot going over a jump which is not recommended for most riders. Here's another tall rider, Mark Todd who has a bit more usual style most of the time: Notice his entirely independent seat.









If you are balanced over your center of gravity as @bsms says, your stirrup leather is going to hang down toward the ground so your stirrup would sit flat on the ground if it fell off the saddle. It will not be pushed forward or pulled backward. Your stirrup leathers are always getting pushed forward. Basically you're cantering seated rather than practicing a half seat or two point, which is what you need to do for jumping. You're only coming off the saddle when the horse's movement pushes you up, rather than never actually bumping your weight onto the saddle even if your pants touch the saddle lightly (which is two pointing). 

I think you are ignoring the importance of your upper leg, and are dividing your weight into two sections. You're fixing your leg below the knee and disconnecting the weight distribution between your upper and lower leg. This causes instability.

The back, inner part of your thigh muscles must carry some of the weight along with the inner, upper calf. 
Notice in this video when the girl is actually riding how the back of her inner thigh muscles are helping stabilize the movement. This "flowing" of the weight down the entire inner leg is what creates stability in the stirrups. Disconnecting at the knee or trying to "fix" the lower leg prevents this. 




You won't physically be able to put your leg too far forward or back and maintain this balance. Once you feel it, you can work on maintaining it at speed and over jumps. 

Once you have this stability it will also help you to not feel like you have to fix your reins at a certain length as you ride or jump. You will be secure enough to adjust them on the fly, even over a jump.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'll recommend two books. Both are old, and I gather they are somewhat out of fashion. However, it you pay attention to what they say, you will end up with a stable lower leg that doesn't shoot forward or back:

Riding and Schooling Horses, by Gen Harry Chamberlin

Common Sense Horsemanship, by VS Littauer

Both would tell you the root of your problem is not the saddle but your balance. I don't know if your saddle is the right size or not, but I know I could get in a too small saddle and keep my stirrups under my center of gravity, and thus stable with the stirrup leathers hanging straight down. 

If you lunge a horse with the stirrups loose, you'll notice the stirrup straps stay hanging straight down. The stirrups don't go forward or back. Gravity keeps them at the bottom of a vertical stirrup strap. Weight flowing into your stirrups will not push them forward or back - IF your center of gravity is directly ABOVE your stirrups.

This is an excerpt from Chamberlin's book:








​ 
"the weight be supported *entirely in the heels, with ankle joints relaxed...if the ankle joints are entirely relaxed*"​ 
BTW - "Heels down", by itself, is not a good thing. Weight flowing into a relaxed ankle is a good thing - including trail riding, IMHO. When weight flows into a relaxed ankle, the heel does go down to whatever extent your body can allow it. I rely on it when my horse gets spooky, thinks of spinning, gets excited and hard to control, etc. Weight flowing into my heels gives me a strong position for staying on and for control.

But as a long time bracer, heels down because I shove them down creates an unstable position and puts me at risk. An instructor who emphasizes "heels down" as a GOAL instead of a RESULT does a rider no favors. But I don't jump, and 90% of my riding in the last few years has been in a western saddle, so take it FWIW.


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## Colby Jack Seige (Feb 1, 2016)

Hay everyone! Just wanted to update you guys on my saddle situation. I don't think that the fit of the saddle to CJ or myself is the issue; I think he issue is that I've been getting lazy and just haven't been paying much attention to my seat. While my saddle is probably a bit smaller than ideal, it is comfortable to me, and fits CJ like a glove. I have a screen cap of our ride today, and while not perfect, there is significant improvement from what I can see. Thank you so much to those of you who suggested exercises to help improve my position, I will continue to work on my alignment, and hopefully have some eyes on the ground now and then.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Colby Jack Seige said:


> Hay everyone! Just wanted to update you guys on my saddle situation. I don't think that the fit of the saddle to CJ or myself is the issue; I think he issue is that I've been getting lazy and just haven't been paying much attention to my seat. While my saddle is probably a bit smaller than ideal, it is comfortable to me, and fits CJ like a glove. I have a screen cap of our ride today, and while not perfect, there is significant improvement from what I can see. Thank you so much to those of you who suggested exercises to help improve my position, I will continue to work on my alignment, and hopefully have some eyes on the ground now and then.


Your position looks much better now with your heels under your hips, and your horse looks much better too. His back is not inverted and he appears calmer and not as worried/stressed as before.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

This photo looks much improved.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

You look a 100% better but be careful not to start tilting your upper body forwards - if I was riding in a GP/AP seat I would probably drop my stirrups a hole, I reserve the shorter length purely for jumping


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## Rock (Aug 23, 2016)

Agree, drop those stirrups, bend you elbows more and sit up straighter. Rolling your shoulders back istantly makes them go back, but be sure to not curve your back in to as you do it...keep your core tight so you are straight and think about how your hips move as you curve your spine - ideally you should be on your seat bones not your...lady....


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## Colby Jack Seige (Feb 1, 2016)

*ANOTHER Update!*

I've got a new saddle! It's a Zaldi Royal 17.5" AP saddle. Got it for $350 and these things can go for as high as $1500, and that was ridden in a couple times! It's in great shape, and fits CJ and I perfectly, from what I can feel. I know my leg position is still not great, but it's definitely improving! Other riders have commented that my leg position is very nice, so that makes me feel super nice  I notice that when I post trot, my leg sits a little in front of my body, and while I'm not landing on the cantle, I'm landing a little farther back than ideal. 

Also, yes, we're now jumping 2 foot with no problem! (P.S. at the end of the video he tripped, and that's why I yelled LOL) Thoughts?


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## Colby Jack Seige (Feb 1, 2016)

ALSO: I've improved a little on my seat since this video, so it's not that horrendous anymore


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

I see a huge improvement in your leg position from the first set of pics to the most recent. Good work!


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## horseylover1_1 (Feb 13, 2008)

Definitely see improvement. Good job!


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Looks better. You fit that saddle much better. I was looking at a Zaldi dressage saddle the other day, used for $2300. Good find!


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