# Color identification



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Looks black. May well have nd1 and could carry cream.


----------



## Agent Smith (Jul 11, 2021)

Thanks for the response. Here are a couple more pictures.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Black with nd1 and you would have to test for cream. If he has cream, he would be called smokey black.


----------



## Agent Smith (Jul 11, 2021)

Thank you, smokey black is what I was wondering about, why I mentioned the palomino stallion. The stallion would actually get darker in the summer. Colors/color genetics have always been a weak point for me.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

This is my nd1 Palomino. Top is winter and bottom is summer though that picture is washed out. He is actually darker gold. His foal coat was so light cream all over he looked max white. 

His brother is a smokey black with nd 1. I'll have to get to my computer to load his pics.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Here are pics of the two when younger.














The black with nd1 and cream has faded quite a bit in the second pic. His foal coat is burnt in the first. I'll see if I can find a pic of him with no fade.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I'll have to see if my niece has some as I don't. The only time he is black is basically when his new winter coat and new summer coat come in. The black only lasts a few days before the fade starts.


----------



## Agent Smith (Jul 11, 2021)

Thanks for sharing. I can't find any winter pictures, got a new phone after he was gone, but he gets a dark gold in the summer like this. The stubby tail was from a goat. It started nibbling and he didn't care.


----------



## Agent Smith (Jul 11, 2021)

Good looking horses. I'm so terrible with colors, lol, I would have said sooty buckskin for the brother.


----------



## Agent Smith (Jul 11, 2021)

Speaking of that, is he even palomino?


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

The horse with the nibbled tail would be sooty palomino.

This is the best pic my niece had. He fades so fast it is hard to catch him when he is link black all over.


----------



## Agent Smith (Jul 11, 2021)

That's a great looking horse. I was always curious if he was actually considered palomino since he had pink skin.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

There will be pink skin under white markings. That horse as well as any other palomino will have dark skin under any portion of colored coat. You can see that in the photo of mine on his face - around the eyes and nose where fur sheds in summer is dark. Under his white star and white sock it is pink. Can't tell that in the picture though.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Genetic short course .....
Extension is noted by E or e. It works in conjunction with Agouti A or a. All genes come in pairs. You get one from the father and one from the mother.

EEAA, EeAa, EEAa, EeAA will all be bay. Black points and red body.

EEaa and Eeaa will be black.

ee is red no matter whether AA, aa or Aa is present but that Agouti status is important.

If that red (ee)horse is bred to a black(EEaa or Eeaa) and the foal is Ee then the "a" from black horse combined with another "a" if that is what red horse passed means foal is black. Combined with an A if that is what the red passed would switch that to bay EeAa. Just to note if the black horse is Ee and is bred to a red ee and both pass "e" then foal is ee red but a black EE can only pass E and no matter what they are bred to baby will be black or bay depending on agouti but no red foals.

For simplicity everything else is extra.

Cream - A single dominant cream gene will turn a red into palomino, a bay into buckskin and a black will be smokey black. If two copies are present a red will be cremello, a bay will be perlino and a black will be smokey cream. Sunshine, Snowdrop and Pearl are located in the same place. Heterozygous for cream does not dilute skin. Homozygous for cream will dilute skin somewhat. It won't be pink though.

Dun is another dilution gene that affects coat color. At that locus there is Dun, nondun1 and nondun2. Dun dilutes the coat and adds primitive markings. Nd1 adds primitive markings and if homozygous can cause a little dilution of the coat. Nd1 also causes fading. Nd2 does not dilute or add primitives. Skin is not affected.

Roan will intersperse the coat with white hairs to varying degrees but not affect skin.

Because the different genes are located in different places they can occur in combination. An example would be a bay with both cream and dun - called a Dunskin which is a combination of the name Dun for bay dun and buckskin for bay with cream. Dunalino would be a red with dun and cream. Etc. Skin will still be dark.

White has many different genes that determine placement and amount of coverage. They can interact or not depending on the gene to produce various patterns of visible white. Some just boost any white but do not cause white. Others can restrict the white. Some white genes can be present but be so minimal as not to be visible at all. All white "spots" come with pink skin.

Then there is gray which trumps all. Skin remains the color of the base and white spots but all hair eventually turns white at some point.

There are many other genes that affect color. A good place to start is the website Equine Tapestry.


----------



## Agent Smith (Jul 11, 2021)

Thanks, that's very informative. Something I'm curious about with white, is it like with dogs, where you have a higher likelihood of health defects? Piebald, Merle I seem to recall with dogs. I had a dogo argentino years ago, so I familiarized myself with their genetics, but I've never had a white, or perlino horse or anything of the sort.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

It depends on the white gene. Some in homozygous form can cause death whether embryonic that is absorbed or like frame (LWO) that causes a long slow painful death after birth. Some cause deafness. Some cause blue eyes. Those that cause pink skin in vulnerable areas have a higher case of cancer in those spots. There is research ongoing about white genes. But it isn't only white that can cause issue. They are finding the silver gene causes mild eye problems when heterozygous in many horses and can cause blindness and other major problems associated with the eye when homozygous. Other color genes can cause other issues. 

Gray in some breeds comes with a much higher incidence of melanoma.


----------



## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Depending on the individual genetics of both stud and *mare* (assuming they are heterozygous for pretty much everything), there is a chance for a chestnut, *palomino*, *black*, bay, brown, buckskin, or smoky *black* from that combination.


----------



## Agent Smith (Jul 11, 2021)

An update on this old thread, trigger (the palomino Tennessee walking horse) did not sire comanche. It was my "gelding" paso fino (oliver) that was seal brown. He died, and it turned out he was a cryptorchid horse. We compared dates after trigger was sold to the guy that has him now, and it would be impossible for him to be the sire unless Katie carried him for a year and 3 weeks or more. It never occurred to us that anything other than trigger could have been the sire until a great deal of time after Oliver had died. Side note, Oliver came from a kill shelter for $550. He came with paperwork. 

Oliver's pedigree had a lot more information than I'm used to seeing, maybe that's a paso fino club thing vs quarter horses, but it gave me direct contact information for the breeder. I contacted him who told me he sold him at 2 years old to one of his trainers because he moved and the trainer was bonded with him very well. Confirmed he was a hard keeper. He sold him for $5500. 5 years after that time, I was feeding him oats and alfalfa hay as the pasture grass didn't seem to put much weight on him. 

He gained some weight and was starting to look healthier so he went in with the mares. One day he went from eating feed and prancing around to on his side more foamed up than eating clovers then dead. I had him less than a year so I assume he was at the kill shelter because the trainer knew of some condition he had.

Regardless, he left his mark with comanche, and now his color makes more sense. If anyone is interested in Oliver and has whatsapp, I can send videos. With warmer weather he developed more of a bay look.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

There are a rare few that carry to a year or even a little over. So possible. Color wise it could have been either. Thanks for updating.


----------

