# Please critique this stallion!!



## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

How old is he? He seems awfully butt high, but if he's young he may still grow into it. It's hard to give you a fair critique when the horse is angled away (presumably to make the QH rump look bigger), but I really like him. He has good angles to him and an overall sturdy frame. Are you looking to breed to him?


----------



## bhorselover (Aug 28, 2011)

he is not my stallion his name is zanton firewater i am looking to breed my sorrel overo mare to him


----------



## TimWhit91 (Feb 3, 2012)

He's pretty butt high, and he looks older so not thinking he will grow into it.


----------



## bhorselover (Aug 28, 2011)

i think he is around the age of 10-15 im not positive i do LOVE the qh butts


----------



## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

How old is he? He's very butt high and has a cresty, thick neck that doesn't tie in well with his shoulder or chest. Posty legs, fairly upright shoulder, and might be tied in at the elbow. Its hard to tell, as these aren't good pictures. 

All in all, if he was brown- I think he would of been gelded the day he dropped. If he were mine, I'd geld him and possibly show him or something. I'm sure he'd make a lovely gelding- he just doesnt have any attributes that I'd want to pass down to his offspring.


----------



## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

I agree with Endiku. Quite bum high which isnt something i would want to pass on regardless of how pretty the stallion is.
Nice enough legs and a good deep girth, but his shoulder is a bit high, which sets his neck off.


----------



## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Welcome bhorselover.

Except for being downhill, I like him. 

is your mare tested for LWO?

Lizzie


----------



## trainerunlimited (Jan 26, 2012)

I can't see a pic of him for some reason.


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

He would make a fair gelding.

Now, don't be upset.......I think one stud in a million should reproduce.

And one mare in 500, 0000.


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

He looks like he can run. I think the picture of him in the pen is on uneven ground. Being downhill denotes speed. Most TB are slightly downhill. Are you hoping for a barrel horse? Shalom


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> He looks like he can run. I think the picture of him in the pen is on uneven ground. Being downhill denotes speed. Most TB are slightly downhill. Are you hoping for a barrel horse? Shalom


Run????

I sure did not see that coming.

That horse is 300 pounds to heavy to run.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Ripper said:


> He would make a fair gelding.
> 
> Now, don't be upset.......I think one stud in a million should reproduce.
> 
> And one mare in 500, 0000.


Well that would certainly solve the overpopulation problem. Assuming a 50-50 split in gender, that means we could have 5 stallions and 10 broodmares. Let's see...with only 10 foals a year, that would put the price of a horse up around $250,000 or so. Of course we have more than 10 breeds...I wonder which breeds we will just do away with?


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

Faceman said:


> Well that would certainly solve the overpopulation problem. Assuming a 50-50 split in gender, that means we could have 5 stallions and 10 broodmares. Let's see...with only 10 foals a year, that would put the price of a horse up around $250,000 or so. Of course we have more than 10 breeds...I wonder which breeds we will just do away with?


Most breeds need to go.


----------



## MyLittlePonies (Mar 15, 2011)

Is he barrel racer or race horse? Barrel racer don't have tight ribcages like race horses. Besides, either way hes probably been retired for a while so not really in shape. For me the angles are off in the pictures. I can't judge it the way it is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

Faceman said:


> Well that would certainly solve the overpopulation problem. Assuming a 50-50 split in gender, that means we could have 5 stallions and 10 broodmares. Let's see...with only 10 foals a year, that would put the price of a horse up around $250,000 or so. Of course we have more than 10 breeds...I wonder which breeds we will just do away with?


Years ago I figured I had $5000/$7000 in each foal.

I never paid a stud fee.

Stallion owners would gladly breed my mares, they knew the foals would be high quality and go to show homes.

That money went to feed, vet care and promoting.


----------



## bhorselover (Aug 28, 2011)

the stallion is a retired money earner barrel horse


----------



## trainerunlimited (Jan 26, 2012)

He looks like a nice stallion and has some good looking babies. He is downhill, but not enough that it is a critical flaw. Let us know what you decide!


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I like him. He a very good pedigree. Like I said looks like he could run. Shalom


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> I like him. He a very good pedigree. Like I said looks like he could run. Shalom


Maybe, if he did not have to run to far....:lol::lol::lol:

Take a good look at his head.

It is just not what I would want in a foal.


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Ripper that is why they call them Quarter horses.LOL Plus you don't have to go far in a barrel racing pattern. His head is not ugly she is not breeding halter horses. Those Firewater horses are some of the best in barrels. To each his own. Shalom


----------



## Aine (Mar 10, 2012)

He's not my cup of tea. I don't really like his head that much and his butt is up very high alright. He's not very classy looking in his pic if you get me, I dunno what it is about him but if you like him you should go for it


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Ripper that is why they call them Quarter horses.LOL Plus you don't have to go far in a barrel racing pattern. His head is not ugly she is not breeding halter horses. Those Firewater horses are some of the best in barrels. To each his own. Shalom


Oh, you will have to do better than that.....

It is not a bad head, just very common.

Nope you don't have to go far however, you have to be handy getting there.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

dbarabians said:


> Ripper that is why they call them Quarter horses.LOL Plus you don't have to go far in a barrel racing pattern. His head is not ugly she is not breeding halter horses. Those Firewater horses are some of the best in barrels. To each his own. Shalom


I'm trying to think of something on a horse less important to performance than the head...

Dang, all I can think of is the mane, tail, and shape of the nostrils...


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Shape of the nostrils not important to performance Face? Really?


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

Faceman said:


> I'm trying to think of something on a horse less important to performance than the head...
> 
> Dang, all I can think of is the mane, tail, and shape of the nostrils...


However, this thread is about breeding.

If you don't try to rise to the highest standard of the breed.....

You are just breeding meat horses.

Now, there is a need for meat horses....so if that is your goal....rest assured there is a market.


----------



## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Faceman said:


> I'm trying to think of something on a horse less important to performance than the head...
> 
> Dang, all I can think of is the mane, tail, and shape of the nostrils...


Well I think that the shape of the nostrils play an important role in performance horses... Say they were very tiny and restricted proper air flow :wink:

Less important than the head would be color in a performance horse :lol:


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

There is nothing wrong with that stallions head. He is a performance horse. If you don't like him then don't breed to him.
I don't think his foals are in danger of being sent to the slaughter house,
By the way the SIZE of the nostrils probably have more influence on performance than the shape. Shalom


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> There is nothing wrong with that stallions head. He is a performance horse. If you don't like him then don't breed to him.
> I don't think his foals are in danger of being sent to the slaughter house,
> By the way the SIZE of the nostrils probably have more influence on performance than the shape. Shalom


All horses face the slaughter house.

Some will be buried.

The possibility is always there.


----------



## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

He is a barrel/race stud.


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

MangoRoX87 said:


> He is a barrel/race stud.


He can barrel race as a gelding.

But, let us just put some facts out here.

How well has his get really done???

Not, him....his get.


----------



## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

I really don't think this horse is dreadful Ripper. He has a very typical QH head. If I'd just seen a pic of his head, I would have known he was a QH. It's not what one would call 'sweet', but not ugly. I do think in some of his pics, he seems to be snoozing, making his eyes look rather small, but I finally found one of him with his eyes open and they are not bad. 

Who would you suggest for the OP, as a stallion for her mare?

Lizzie


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

FeatheredFeet said:


> I really don't think this horse is dreadful Ripper. He has a very typical QH head. If I'd just seen a pic of his head, I would have known he was a QH. It's not what one would call 'sweet', but not ugly. I do think in some of his pics, he seems to be snoozing, making his eyes look rather small, but I finally found one of him with his eyes open and they are not bad.
> 
> Who would you suggest for the OP, as a stallion for her mare?
> 
> Lizzie


OMG, I would have to have much more information to even think the mare is worthy to be bred.

Now, look the the length from the bottom of the stallion's eyes to his nose.


----------



## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

I'm no expert on QHs Ripper, so can you show me a pic of a correct QH head? Then I'll know the difference. At the moment, I don't see anything different from most.

Lizzie


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

FeatheredFeet said:


> I'm no expert on QHs Ripper, so can you show me a pic of a correct QH head? Then I'll know the difference. At the moment, I don't see anything different from most.
> 
> Lizzie


Wicker Ranch Horses | Buy this Horse at AQHA.com Online Classifieds

I could have picked a $25,000 or up horse.

I picked an average/low priced horse with a good head.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Ripper said:


> Now, look the the length from the bottom of the stallion's eyes to his nose.


Yup...that is Newton's Third Law of Velocity...

The distance between the bottom of the eyes to the nose is inversely proportional to the third stride velocity.

Better switch him to WP...


----------



## bhorselover (Aug 28, 2011)

OK Ripper calm down!!!!! worthy to be bred seriously.......


----------



## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Hmm. Sorry Ripper, but I'm not crazy about the horse's head you showed and with the long back and a few other problems, didn't like it as much the horse the OP showed.

Lizzie


----------



## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

That one looks just as butt high as the first, shoulder doesn't look as good, and IMHO isn't as pretty in the face as the first one. 

But then again I have a not so well put together TWH that someone bred from 2 fuglies and I still love him. So to each his own I guess... 

OP I'd keep looking just because there is better out there, then if you still are in love with this stud make the decision then.


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

bhorselover said:


> OK Ripper calm down!!!!! worthy to be bred seriously.......


That just me....

If I do not see the cross improving the bloodlines I pass.


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

FeatheredFeet said:


> Hmm. Sorry Ripper, but I'm not crazy about the horse's head you showed and with the long back and a few other problems, didn't like it as much the horse the OP showed.
> 
> Lizzie


LOL....why am I not surprised?????:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Lol, Ripper is now one of my favorite people to read from. I agree.

Also, do we have a photograph of the mare in question yet? The one that was provided "looks something like her". I want to see the mare to make a good match. Bloodlines.


----------



## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Ripper said:


> LOL....why am I not surprised?????:lol::lol::lol:


 
Then maybe you should explain, to those of us not in the breed.

Lizzie


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Feathered Feet I would not concern my self with what ripper or anyone else thinks . Your post are valid not only to you but to most reeading this thread.
By the way Ripper if that stallion is by Firewater Flit he is probably worth 25,000 or more. That is a very good line of Barrel Horses. Shalom


----------



## bhorselover (Aug 28, 2011)

Yes the palomino stallions sire is firewater flint.and yes I will be posting the pics of my mare tomarrow night.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

BH he might be worth a trip to go see him in person then. Kelly Yates had a daughter of firewater Flit that was one of the top barrel horses in this country until she was injured. Firewater Fiesta I think was the horses name. 
If I was breeding for a barrel horse I'd go take a look at him. Shalom


----------



## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

As a qh stallion, I like him a lot. I have to say, I agree with him being a runner. He may not be able to hold up over a mile, but he could kick butt in a barrel pattern. I'm guessing you're not breeding for the next Zenyatta, so I think he'll be fine.
As far as his looks, the only thing that I don't like is how downhill he is. Although he's not exactly the worst, it's just a little too much for my taste. Other than that, I think he's a very good looking stallion, face and all. Although it might help if his long, although pretty, mane was out of the way a bit more... lol.

But what will really confirm my opinion is what you're breeding for and whether he will cross well with your mare.


----------



## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

Ripper said:


> Most breeds need to go.


Just a shot in the dark, but I'm guessing your horses would make up the whole lot allowed to breed...

I don't want to be too rude, but I think this is rather... unnecessary to share on here, even if all opinions are respected.


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

soenjer55 said:


> Just a shot in the dark, but I'm guessing your horses would make up the whole lot allowed to breed...
> 
> I don't want to be too rude, but I think this is rather... unnecessary to share on here, even if all opinions are respected.


I do not have horses at the time.....

I am looking at proven broodmares.

However, I have raised three AQHA champions.

Two Superior halter horses.

And many MQHBF winners....and Congress winners, both halter and two year old snaffle bit.

My barn will be ready in July......I will gladly show pictures.

I have been out of horses for 18 years.


----------



## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

If you've been out of horses for that long, why do you think that you can put down everything that every one of us has said about this stallion, just referring back to your 'no horse should be bred' line? Sure. Theres a lot of horses out there who should be bred, all but one of my barn's 52 horses included- and sure, maybe this stud isn't the nicest of them all, but the OP could do a LOT worse. If she were to breed this guy to a level or even uphill, classic mare- she'd probably get a very nice, sturdy foal that could potentially be very versitile. Would I breed him personally? No. But he's not terrible. The only faults that I see are that he's butt high (so is my mare. She's lovely.) and and a tad bit of a long back. And the butt really isnt even as bad as it looks- he appears to be a bit sway backed and so has more of a 'dip' than usual.

As for his head...I thought it was one of his nicer features. It pairs well with his body and is set well, with a clean throatlatch and good sized nostrils/ears. I fail to see how its so 'ugly,' and you can just stop before you even begin to tell me that I don't know quarter horses. Our farm has an upwards of 12 Quarter Horses right now, and all of them are atleast decently built and a few were money earners, including our foundation QH Buddy, who stood at stud for four years before we had him gelded for ranch use. Plenty of them have the same head, and we're constantly being complimented by other QH owners and the public about how lovely they are!

Jasmine Jasmine 2 Diamond Buddy Buddy 2 as opposed to something like  this which is the norm in our town. Perfectly nice horses, non 10,000 dollar parents. We wouldn't trade them for a thousand Jackie Brees or Sir Cool Skips who were so halter bred that you wonder if they were even ridable- even if they were pretty.


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

Endiku said:


> If you've been out of horses for that long, why do you think that you can put down everything that every one of us has said about this stallion, just referring back to your 'no horse should be bred' line? Sure. Theres a lot of horses out there who should be bred, all but one of my barn's 52 horses included- and sure, maybe this stud isn't the nicest of them all, but the OP could do a LOT worse. If she were to breed this guy to a level or even uphill, classic mare- she'd probably get a very nice, sturdy foal that could potentially be very versitile. Would I breed him personally? No. But he's not terrible. The only faults that I see are that he's butt high (so is my mare. She's lovely.) and and a tad bit of a long back. And the butt really isnt even as bad as it looks- he appears to be a bit sway backed and so has more of a 'dip' than usual.
> 
> As for his head...I thought it was one of his nicer features. It pairs well with his body and is set well, with a clean throatlatch and good sized nostrils/ears. I fail to see how its so 'ugly,' and you can just stop before you even begin to tell me that I don't know quarter horses. Our farm has an upwards of 12 Quarter Horses right now, and all of them are atleast decently built and a few were money earners, including our foundation QH Buddy, who stood at stud for four years before we had him gelded for ranch use. Plenty of them have the same head, and we're constantly being complimented by other QH owners and the public about how lovely they are!
> 
> Jasmine Jasmine 2 Diamond Buddy Buddy 2 as opposed to something like this which is the norm in our town. Perfectly nice horses, non 10,000 dollar parents. We wouldn't trade them for a thousand Jackie Brees or Sir Cool Skips who were so halter bred that you wonder if they were even ridable- even if they were pretty.


Where did I say the stud's head was "ugly"?????

I think "common" was the word.


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

Ripper said:


> Oh, you will have to do better than that.....
> 
> It is not a bad head, just very common.
> 
> ...


Here we go.......

I said "common".....


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

Endiku said:


> If you've been out of horses for that long, why do you think that you can put down everything that every one of us has said about this stallion, just referring back to your 'no horse should be bred' line? Sure. Theres a lot of horses out there who should be bred, all but one of my barn's 52 horses included- and sure, maybe this stud isn't the nicest of them all, but the OP could do a LOT worse. If she were to breed this guy to a level or even uphill, classic mare- she'd probably get a very nice, sturdy foal that could potentially be very versitile. Would I breed him personally? No. But he's not terrible. The only faults that I see are that he's butt high (so is my mare. She's lovely.) and and a tad bit of a long back. And the butt really isnt even as bad as it looks- he appears to be a bit sway backed and so has more of a 'dip' than usual.
> 
> As for his head...I thought it was one of his nicer features. It pairs well with his body and is set well, with a clean throatlatch and good sized nostrils/ears. I fail to see how its so 'ugly,' and you can just stop before you even begin to tell me that I don't know quarter horses. Our farm has an upwards of 12 Quarter Horses right now, and all of them are atleast decently built and a few were money earners, including our foundation QH Buddy, who stood at stud for four years before we had him gelded for ranch use. Plenty of them have the same head, and we're constantly being complimented by other QH owners and the public about how lovely they are!
> 
> Jasmine Jasmine 2 Diamond Buddy Buddy 2 as opposed to something like this which is the norm in our town. Perfectly nice horses, non 10,000 dollar parents. We wouldn't trade them for a thousand Jackie Brees or Sir Cool Skips who were so halter bred that you wonder if they were even ridable- even if they were pretty.


Now....

Reread your post.

We agree on many things.

You would not breed to him......yum different reasons....same result.

You gelded a standing stud.....again just what I advocate in many cases.

Since I do not nor, never have rode....breeding halter babies is all I can do.

However, in that I found if they are built right, they work better.


----------



## horsemadgirl (Aug 23, 2011)

Awfully butt high but not bad enough to effect his riding i don't think. may not pass onto a foal anyway considering its not that bad. Depending on his age he may grow out of it, if he does he'l be a cracking pair for mare! wonderful glossy coat and a beautiful neck and shoulder in proportion to his body.


----------



## oceanne (Apr 13, 2012)

I would have gelded this horse.


----------



## caseymyhorserocks (Apr 5, 2010)

Starting from the legs.. He has fine legs although his hind legs are longer than his front legs making him butt high, thick neck that ties in low. He has a nice kind head, and looks like he would make a nice gelding.. Not stallion worthy at ALL.


----------



## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

I'd have to agree with everyone on here


----------



## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Yes, if they're built right. But I have yet to find a high level halter horse that doesn't look like an elephant on giraffe legs, with big old honkin' butts and tiny heads. If thats a nice head, I'd rather a 'common' head any time. I honestly don't see a use in a tank horse like this.

As for gelding, we didn't geld Buddy because he wasn't an accomplished horse or because he had poor conformation, but because we didn't have the facilities to deal with a stallion anymore and would rather a sane, well built gelding. We bred him while he was with us, and he has a lovely 6 year old get that we still own, and this get happens to of earned over 7k in prize money at rodeos, and is constantly recieving compliments. Not all too impressive but definitely proof that Buddy can throw a good foal.

You're entitled to your own opinion, ofcourse- but theres no reason to downplay this stud as less than he is. He's earned money, has good lineage, and his conformation is atleast decent. Paired with the right mare, he might have lovely foals. The OP could do better, and I'd encourage her to keep looking for a while, but she could do much worse as well!


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Quoting Ripper...



> Now....
> 
> Reread your post.
> 
> ...


You know, I have skirted around the issue a couple of times in this thread, but considering your snide posts, I'm going to tell it like it is.

Whatever your experience level is, it is by your own admission in halter. The only conformational comment you have made on this stallion is his head, which is a halter issue. Be reminded this is a performance horse - not a halter horse. Whether his head is good or bad is, in the first place, subjective, and in the second place, irrelevant.

Your statement he is 300 pounds too heavy to run is irrelevant. The OP has clearly stated he is a retired performance horse. If you knew anything about breeding, you would know that a knowledgeable breeder will keep his/her breeding stock in a 5 condition - which this stallion is. At this point in his career, this horse is breeding stock - he is supposed to be in breeding condition - not performance condition.

Everyone likes something different, and sees something different. I am not defending the stallion - he is better than some and not as good as some. However if you wish to offer criticism on this stallion as a potential performance stallion, why not offer a relevant observation?...


----------



## horsemadgirl (Aug 23, 2011)

Lets get the bad out of the way.

BAD - 
• He's pretty butt high 
• A very arched back
• Quite a small head and neck
• A bad swollen knee 
• A worryingly small shoulder

now the..

GOOD - 
• Beautiful glossy coat
• Lovely healthy main and tail
• Nice face markings
• Well proportioned legs to body 
• Looks a healthy weight
• Neck is a good length


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

Faceman said:


> Quoting Ripper...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow...

I said he was 300 pounds to heavy to run very far.

This thread is in a breeding section of a forum.

I hope every horse that bred has an owner looking to better the breed.

Not a single purpose.


----------



## Chopsticks (Mar 11, 2012)

going to go against the grain here, not ready to write this boy off yet...but I think that first photo is not flattering and I sense he's on uneven ground as he doesn't look as butt high nor do his hocks look as straight in the third photo. I like his neck tie, throatlatch is clean, I love his neck, I like his shoulder angle and I love the depth of his hip. I also like his pasterns, short back and wither placement. I even like his tail set and the croup angle. The only thing I want to see more clearly is his hind end structure - hocks mainly. Here's my question, what's his performance record and then of course, can you get some better pictures?


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

BTW the stallion is Zanton Firewater Bedonna's Performance Horses


----------



## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

horsemadgirl said:


> Lets get the bad out of the way.
> 
> BAD -
> • He's pretty butt high
> ...


I think we have all agreed, the horse is high in the butt. However, I don't see "a very arched back", or "quite a small head and neck." 

I had to really look carefully at the pic, re. his front leg. I'm not sure the knee is swollen really. Just the pic maybe and because it's in front of the left fore.

I don't see much wrong with his shoulder, either.

Unlike many halter QHs, I think his bone matches his body size, very well.

Lizzie


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Ripper said:


> Wow...
> 
> I said he was 300 pounds to heavy to run very far.


You said exactly what I said you said (entire post)...



> Run????
> 
> I sure did not see that coming.
> 
> That horse is 300 pounds to heavy to run.


And again, he is retired and is now breeding stock. To be redundant, he is not supposed to be in performance condition...


----------



## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

OK folks, we don't need to go back and forth so let's get back on topic.


----------



## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Hopefully, the OP will post pics of her mare soon.

Lizzie


----------



## Chopsticks (Mar 11, 2012)

is she considering him for breeding? If so, isn't that ok on this forum to post for a critique?


----------



## Chopsticks (Mar 11, 2012)

this was also put in confo critique so i will copy my reply there - lots of negative responses to the stallion...
going to go against the grain here, not ready to write this boy off yet...but I think that first photo is not flattering and I sense he's on uneven ground as he doesn't look as butt high nor do his hocks look as straight in the third photo. I like his neck tie, throatlatch is clean, I love his neck, I like his shoulder angle and I love the depth of his hip. I also like his pasterns, short back and wither placement. I even like his tail set and the croup angle. The only thing I want to see more clearly is his hind end structure - hocks mainly. Here's my question, what's his performance record and then of course, can you get some better pictures?


Adding...now that you have confirmed he is a proven performance horse, I stand by my critique even more. 

And I will add one thing to Ripper...one of the 'sports' that I have often thought should be eliminated is "Halter". I liken halter horses to english bulldogs- bred for looks and not for anything else. And their 'looks' are so damaging to the breed that they could not survive in the wild or birth in the wild. So as for your comment about most breeds needing to be eliminated...well...I would be interested in what you think halter bred QH's add to the breed?


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

supposedly considering for breeding.


----------



## Chopsticks (Mar 11, 2012)

His bloodlines apparently are quite impressive for barrel racers, and he is advertised to have done very well in the sport. I don't know what his babies have produced but I stand by my critique that this is not a horse to be immediately written off, as many others in breeding have concurred with. I think we all know that when breeding a performance horse, bloodlines and proven track records play a major part in the decision. Not to say this is the best choice for a barrel racing stud, however, I think more information is needed to say he should be a gelding or not.


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

Chopsticks said:


> this was also put in confo critique so i will copy my reply there - lots of negative responses to the stallion...
> going to go against the grain here, not ready to write this boy off yet...but I think that first photo is not flattering and I sense he's on uneven ground as he doesn't look as butt high nor do his hocks look as straight in the third photo. I like his neck tie, throatlatch is clean, I love his neck, I like his shoulder angle and I love the depth of his hip. I also like his pasterns, short back and wither placement. I even like his tail set and the croup angle. The only thing I want to see more clearly is his hind end structure - hocks mainly. Here's my question, what's his performance record and then of course, can you get some better pictures?
> 
> 
> ...


I maintain if it is built right...

It will work better.


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I'm with Chopsticks on this one.
i wouldn't give you 50 dollars for any QH halter champion or any other stock breed. I'm starting to feel that way about some of the arabian halter champions.
Being built downhill denotes speed. That stallion has the pedigree worthy of consideration.
However, I would never breed to a stallion without first seeing him in person. Shalom


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Ripper said:


> I maintain if it is built right...
> 
> It will work better.


 
My first entrance into this debate.

I dont' show or breed horses. However, from what I see, the horses that WIN in halter do not work better. That is the fault of the judges and the breed folks, who are selecting for things that do not make for a horse that functions better, but rather a weaker one. IF the judges rewarded correct conformation, and marked down incorrect breeding results (such as marking down faerie sized feet on ogre sized horses), then halter bred horses really would represent the very best of the breed.


----------



## mnl764 (Apr 8, 2012)

Ripper said:


> Wicker Ranch Horses | Buy this Horse at AQHA.com Online Classifieds
> 
> I could have picked a $25,000 or up horse.
> 
> I picked an average/low priced horse with a good head.


All horses are pretty, but this one appeals to me less than the OP, he has a big club head. I like the big but delicate look of the OP


----------



## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

And don't forget, she's 'brownish with highlights'. Surely that must count for something.:wink:

Lizzie


----------



## bhorselover (Aug 28, 2011)

here she is


----------



## bhorselover (Aug 28, 2011)

Heres one more


----------



## bhorselover (Aug 28, 2011)

sorry for the bad quality they where taken with my phone


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> My first entrance into this debate.
> 
> I dont' show or breed horses. However, from what I see, the horses that WIN in halter do not work better. That is the fault of the judges and the breed folks, who are selecting for things that do not make for a horse that functions better, but rather a weaker one. IF the judges rewarded correct conformation, and marked down incorrect breeding results (such as marking down faerie sized feet on ogre sized horses), then halter bred horses really would represent the very best of the breed.


With all due respect, how does any AQHA champion ever happen????

My stallion had a superior halter and rom in western pleasure.

Also he was good enough at reining to get his points.


----------



## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Ripper said:


> With all due respect, how does any AQHA champion ever happen????
> 
> My stallion had a superior halter and rom in western pleasure.
> 
> Also he was good enough at reining to get his points.



I usually try to stay out of the 'halter horse' debate as they are not my cup of tea. 

However, I have a stud in my barn that I can say the same about, but he is not a halter horse, his sire was the last living son of Poco Dell and his dam a daughter of Due Note by Sugar Bars. He was overall champion halter stallion for the state 4 different years, has 8 All-Around titles, multiple Congress top 10's, points in WP, HUS, SMS, Reining, Trail & halter. BUT he is 30 years old and when he was campaigned heavily it was a much different time in the AQHA. 

I have to agree with others on the majority of "halter" horses these days. If they were truly the ideal, they should also work well under saddle. Most halter horses never have a saddle put on their back (at least in my area, they are put on the treadmill and that's the extent of "work" for them) If they did why would the AQHA have added "Performance Halter" as a seperate class? 

When I think "halter horse" in AQHA terms these days, I see horses with toothpick legs, upright pasterns, excessive mass and saggy diaper butts. There is nothing about those types that scream 'ride me' and most if you did, wouldn't last but a couple of years because they'd break down due to confo constraints.


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> I usually try to stay out of the 'halter horse' debate as they are not my cup of tea.
> 
> However, I have a stud in my barn that I can say the same about, but he is not a halter horse, his sire was the last living son of Poco Dell and his dam a daughter of Due Note by Sugar Bars. He was overall champion halter stallion for the state 4 different years, has 8 All-Around titles, multiple Congress top 10's, points in WP, HUS, SMS, Reining, Trail & halter. BUT he is 30 years old and when he was campaigned heavily it was a much different time in the AQHA.
> 
> ...


Treadmills are killers for performance horses.

It shortens their stride.


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> I usually try to stay out of the 'halter horse' debate as they are not my cup of tea.
> 
> However, I have a stud in my barn that I can say the same about, but he is not a halter horse, his sire was the last living son of Poco Dell and his dam a daughter of Due Note by Sugar Bars. He was overall champion halter stallion for the state 4 different years, has 8 All-Around titles, multiple Congress top 10's, points in WP, HUS, SMS, Reining, Trail & halter. BUT he is 30 years old and when he was campaigned heavily it was a much different time in the AQHA.
> 
> ...


After reading this forum, I think maybe I will feel differently when I go to a AQHA show this year.

Maybe I won't like what I see.

Only time will tell.

I thought I had my mind made up to get back in raising foals.

This AM I question if I will go foward.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> I usually try to stay out of the 'halter horse' debate as they are not my cup of tea.
> 
> However, I have a stud in my barn that I can say the same about, but he is not a halter horse, his sire was the last living son of Poco Dell and his dam a daughter of Due Note by Sugar Bars. He was overall champion halter stallion for the state 4 different years, has 8 All-Around titles, multiple Congress top 10's, points in WP, HUS, SMS, Reining, Trail & halter. BUT he is 30 years old and when he was campaigned heavily it was a much different time in the AQHA.
> 
> ...


True...

The "if they are built better they work better" mentality is essentially correct, but what is missing in that formular is "built for what?" In this case, the stallion is a performance horse, so should be judged by what is built well for performance - not by what is built well for halter. To judge all horses by one standard is to eliminate form to function, which is the very foundation of conformation. As function varies, so should form. And aesthetics - such as color, mane, tail, head, polished hooves, grooming, or quality of tack, while important to halter (a concept with which I disagree by the way) have virtually no meaning whatsoever in performance.

I hope that "performance halter" continues to grow in popularity, and hope that eventually it will replace pure halter competition altogether. As is obvious from the grotesque characatures we see in some halter horses, aesthetics are often counterproductive to soundness. I think we should learn a lesson from what we have done to dogs - breeding grotesque unsound animals to suit our capricious whims, and not go down the same path with horses...


----------



## Chopsticks (Mar 11, 2012)

Ripper, I applaud your open mind. I will be very interested to hear you weigh in on the changes in the showing world from when you were involved as to now. I wasn't around when the halter horses were as MF has described, sounds like night and day to what is winning these days.


----------



## Chopsticks (Mar 11, 2012)

bhorselover said:


> Heres one more


So getting back to the actual thread - 

OP, your mare is very upright through the pasterns and seems to have small feet. neck ties in a bit low, good heartgirth but has more flesh than bone. What are her bloodlines?


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

Chopsticks said:


> Ripper, I applaud your open mind. I will be very interested to hear you weigh in on the changes in the showing world from when you were involved as to now. I wasn't around when the halter horses were as MF has described, sounds like night and day to what is winning these days.


Thanks....

I have only been to the Congress recently and there it was a given that halter horses would likely not be ridden in performance events.

It was more about promoting the horse than anything physical.

I know when my horse won the two year old snaffle bit futurity, I was done showing.

I could not chance anyone being able to say they beat him the next day.


----------



## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Hmm. It would be nice to see a good pic of your mare, standing on hard ground and four square. I do think the stallion is much better quality than your mare though.

How old is she? Has she foaled before? She is long backed, has very upright pasterns, weakish loin and a bit of an upright shoulder. Can't tell about her feet, since they were stuck in sand. She is light in bone and looks to be sickle-hocked. From the pics, she looks as though she might like to stand under herself. She is also light in hair. What is her LWO status? 

Difficult to tell from the pics, but nothing screams breeding quality to me. Sorry.

Lizzie


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

FF - just looking at her I am pretty positive she is a frame carrier.


----------



## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Yep. I think so too.

Lizzie


----------



## mnl764 (Apr 8, 2012)

bhorselover said:


> Heres one more


Pretty, I only wish she wasn't dozing lol.


----------



## bhorselover (Aug 28, 2011)

Ya I woke her up from her nap and it was a colder day then she was used to so she likes to act sleepy to get away without having a workout.


----------



## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

Ripper said:


> I do not have horses at the time.....
> 
> I am looking at proven broodmares.
> 
> ...


Sorry I didn't reply earlier, life got pretty busy. I'm not trying to keep this argument going, I just think that I need to clear the air here... 
I in no way am questioning your breeding record, and I think your opinion is very sound, and agree, although to a BIT of a lesser degree. I don't doubt that you breed/ bred good horses- the fact that you believe in only breeding the best horses testifies to that. It's not your opinion, or anything like that- its the way you said it. You did not offer a critique, you only offered a rudely stated opinion. I'm just letting you know that even if you didn't find that offensive, it could have been worded in a better way or not at all, and was mostly uncalled for. Thank you for reading, if you did, I hope that I make sense and there are no hard feelings.
I'd love to see the mares that you're looking at though, if you want to share!!! 
edit- I just read the last couple pages, and I think that you have a very open mind. I read that you're questioning getting back into breeding- you have an open mind and are good about breeding quality horses, please keep considering it.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

The stallion is okay. Not spectacular by any means, but not terrible either. Other than being fairly downhill (more than what I would want to breed) and in that one picture, his hocks appear to be a bit straighter than I like. Other than that, he looks like a very nice speed horse that could turn and burn. I don't know much about his lines as I don't really follow barrel racing lines, but if ya'll say he's well bred, I'll take your word for it.

However, I would like to talk about the mare. OP, I don't want you to take this as a dig against your mare as I'm sure she's a very nice horse, but she is not breeding quality....at _all_. There are several things about her conformation that I would never _ever_ want to risk re-producing in a foal.

Her shoulder is very upright and her legs are just bad all the way around. She is exceptionally upright in her pasterns on all 4 feet; her back pasterns seem almost to the point that they look like they could buckle over at any moment. She is very sickle hocked and pretty fine boned. All those things added up is an almost perfect recipe for lameness issues.

The stud...I might breed to him if I had a mare to compliment him and was looking for a barrel prospect. Your mare....I wouldn't want a foal out of her no matter who the stud was.

Have you looked around at the stock already on the ground to see if there is something more suitable that would have more potential?


----------



## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I don't think either are breeding quality. Neither are proven or conformationally correct enough to produce anything spectacular. There are so many unwanted babies out there. Go buy one, it's cheaper and your guaranteed to know what your getting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WyndellaRose (Nov 7, 2011)

2012 Foals

There are 3 foals on here by that stallion. I'd personally pick up one of them instead of breeding your mare although she is quite pretty. 2 sorrel fillies (one with a really unique blaze pattern on her face) and a buckskin colt who I think has potential if raised and trained correctly. I'd probably make him a gelding really quick but I think he'd make a nice barrel horse.


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

For a barrel horse I like that stallion and his bloodlines. The mare on the other hand I would hesitate about breeding her. Good luck with what ever you decide. Shalom


----------

