# Egg butt snaffle



## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

A lot of good bit information:

::: Sustainable Dressage - Tack & Auxillary Equipment - The Bridle & the Bit :::

I have two horses in single-jointed eggbutts. Both are English horses. I like it because it's more stable in their mouths than loose ring snaffles, in my experience, and doesn't allow for pinching of the lip.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I like egg buts because the head stall holds the bit at the correct angle in their mouth, more so than loose rings, but not so much as a full cheek with keepers. D's and Eggbutts and Full cheeks also provide a good deal of lateral movement, so when you pull one rein it applies pressure on the outside of the mouth on the opposite side. So pushing the mouth over as well as applying pressure to the tongue/bar. 
Personally I prefer french link over single linked bits, simply because it reduces the nut-cracker action. But some horses don't like all the mess of the two links and do better in a single joint. Tends to be horses with a low pallet wont like single jointed. You could also try unjointed, mullened out mouthpiece, I like them.


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

My horse is ridden in an eggbutt French-link (double-jointed) snaffle. As Punks said above, the eggbutt rings help keep the bit at the correct angle, and I find the rounded rings are more comfortable for the horse's cheeks than a dee-ring (although I know some horses that prefer a dee). The double-jointed action of the french-link keeps the pressure off the tongue and roof and prevents a squeezing nutcracker action that can happen with a single-jointed bit.

I ride English (mostly dressage and trails).

But I'm curious, if you don't know the workings of an eggbutt snaffle how can you be vehemently against bits in your other thread?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I prefer the D-ring for my mare. We've tried 2 piece snaffles and 3 piece snaffles, and she seems more relaxed with a two piece. Given my style of riding, I don't think nutcracker action is something to worry about.



EvilHorseOfDoom said:


> ...But I'm curious, if you don't know the workings of an eggbutt snaffle how can you be vehemently against bits in your other thread?


Me too!


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

bsms said:


> I prefer the D-ring for my mare. We've tried 2 piece snaffles and 3 piece snaffles, and she seems more relaxed with a two piece. Given my style of riding, I don't think nutcracker action is something to worry about.
> 
> 
> 
> Me too!


An 'aha!' moment:lol:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

EvilHorseOfDoom said:


> But I'm curious, if you don't know the workings of an eggbutt snaffle how can you be vehemently against bits in your other thread?


Makes me wonder how much this person knows, I mean seriously, an eggbutt is one of those bits that 99% of people have hanging around, (I'm kind of including D Ring in there as well) 

Nope, got no more, just walking away shaking my head


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## KSL (Oct 4, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> Makes me wonder how much this person knows, I mean seriously, an eggbutt is one of those bits that 99% of people have hanging around, (I'm kind of including D Ring in there as well)
> 
> Nope, got no more, just walking away shaking my head


Just never used it. I ride western primarily.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

KSL said:


> Just never used it. I ride western primarily.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Anyone who's familiar with Western riding would already know that eggbutts are _commonly_ used in those disciplines. They're not just used in English disciplines.

Seriously starting to wonder if you even know the front end of a horse from the back end, much less actually ride. :?


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## KSL (Oct 4, 2012)

Speed Racer said:


> Anyone who's familiar with Western riding would already know that eggbutts are _commonly_ used in those disciplines. They're not just used in English disciplines.
> 
> Seriously starting to wonder if you even know the front end of a horse from the back end, much less actually ride. :?


Whatever. I ride daily. And know exactly what I am doing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

What bits do you use then.


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

My daughter does all her training and every day riding in a snaffle. Keeps her horse flexible is what she tells me  I am going to have her take Tango back into one so he can relearn all the basics if he ever knew them...lol


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Oh is this one going to be as good as the others?
Please let it be
:twisted:


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

KSL said:


> Whatever. I ride daily. And know exactly what I am doing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I also ride daily.. there's no way you know EXACTLY what you're doing.
Even people who are in the Olympics with their horses are always learning and _looking_ to learn.

Saying you know exactly what you're doing makes it harder for you to learn and understand. 
I've been riding for 11 years, which isn't that much, but almost every time I ride, I'm learning something or asking about something. 

Keep your eyes, ears, and mind always open.


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## ShinaKonga (Jun 24, 2010)

Oh, the joys of a newbie coming in to behave like a know-it-all...


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## KSL (Oct 4, 2012)

Def. not a newbie. To horses anyway. And I don't know it all. I've never said that. I was asking a question, which just goes to show that I dot know it all. Obviously. Answer the question or don't reply. Easy.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

Well you said "I know exactly what I'm doing" so obviously you don't need an answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KSL (Oct 4, 2012)

Everyone takes everything SO literally here. This is by forums can be a pain sometimes.


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## Thyme (Sep 4, 2010)

equiniphile said:


> A lot of good bit information:
> 
> ::: Sustainable Dressage - Tack & Auxillary Equipment - The Bridle & the Bit :::


Thanks for sharing that! Awesome site!


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## ShinaKonga (Jun 24, 2010)

KSL said:


> Def. not a newbie. To horses anyway. And I don't know it all. I've never said that. I was asking a question, which just goes to show that I dot know it all. Obviously. Answer the question or don't reply. Easy.


'I know exactly what I'm doing'.

I suppose if you think this forum is a pain you're welcome to leave :lol:
No skin off anyone else's back.
Though it seems you've only come here to start trouble. Cute. How old are you again?


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## KSL (Oct 4, 2012)

20. How am I starting trouble by asking what a egg butt snaffle is commonly used for since I've never used one? Maybe I want to start using one? Not sure how I'm starting trouble.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

Come on guys... let's not instigate...



Golden Horse said:


> Makes me wonder how much this person knows, I mean seriously, an eggbutt is one of those bits that 99% of people have hanging around, (I'm kind of including D Ring in there as well)
> 
> Nope, got no more, just walking away shaking my head


Well I wouldn't say not knowing the mechanics of an eggbutt bit means she doesn't know anything. I can identify an eggbutt, but I wouldn't have really been able to tell someone accurately how it's better or worse than any other snaffle. It isn't because I'm ignorant or inexperienced... it's just because I've never owned one, and never really researched it, nor have I ever come to a point with a horse where I thought "Oh man! I need an eggbutt snaffle!" Lol. I don't show, never have (not anything serious anyway). So my method of choosing a bit is going to the tack store, looking at the bit wall, handling a few, bending them this way and that, putting them in my fist and twisting them around to see if they pinch... you get the idea. I use D-ring most often, and just from comparing the two visually it looks like they have similar attributes, so it's possible they are mechanically the same ...? Anyway... my point is even experienced and knowledgeable people don't know a lot about things that others consider "common knowledge".

KSL, I believe you can ride. I believe you know lots about horses. I don't think you're stupid and I haven't read anything that implies that you are. You are opinionated and maybe a tad stubborn, but certainly not stupid. I used to be exactly the same way... I could accomplish a lot but I ended up making myself look silly when I took things personally and tried to argue myself into being right. If you come here with the mindset "I want to learn" you will do just that. Then, you can put your two-cents in on threads where people ask for advice and start threads asking questions - but you have to have the intention to learn. If you come here with the mindset "I want to educate" and then post threads asking questions and sparking bit vs bitless debates with no intention of learning, only pushing your opinion and keeping a closed mind, you will not like your experience here.

You wouldn't BELIEVE how much I've learned from this forum. Just keep an open mind and you will learn a LOT of valuable information that will directly benefit you as a young horsewoman. I'm about your age and have been visiting this forum for over a year and learn more and more every time I come here.


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## ShinaKonga (Jun 24, 2010)

KSL said:


> 20. How am I starting trouble by asking what a egg butt snaffle is commonly used for since I've never used one? Maybe I want to start using one? Not sure how I'm starting trouble.


Just curious as to why you come on here and start threads about not using bits, about your boarder, etc. and then proceed to become defensive when the answers people give don't go your way.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> What bits do you use then.


Still waiting for an answer, I now understand that you ride using a lacy cobweb, gathered at dawn using a fairy wand, but who taught you to ride, what equipment did they use, and do you use any bits now?


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## KSL (Oct 4, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> Still waiting for an answer, I now understand that you ride using a lacy cobweb, gathered at dawn using a fairy wand, but who taught you to ride, what equipment did they use, and do you use any bits now?


Sorry, I thought I answered this. I usually don't use a bit unless I'm in a larger competition. Then, I use a Tom Thumb but keep my hands extremely light, since I know it's harsh. But I rarely use one. I don't like using it. 

My dad taught me to ride. He's a trainer and cutting competitor. He used a variety of equipment when needed, but didn't put the horse in a bit unless he needed it. Which is what I still stand on.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Tom Thumb, WOW


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

KSL said:


> Sorry, I thought I answered this. I usually don't use a bit unless I'm in a larger competition. Then, I use a Tom Thumb but keep my hands extremely light, since I know it's harsh. But I rarely use one. I don't like using it.
> 
> My dad taught me to ride. He's a trainer and cutting competitor. He used a variety of equipment when needed, but didn't put the horse in a bit unless he needed it. Which is what I still stand on.


Instead of a Tom Thumb you might want to look into a non-jointed bit or a Myler - those single jointed curbs are just icky.

Something like these...



















There's a sticky on one of these subforums that smrobs wrote that has LOTS of great info about bits... http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/bit-information-curb-western-type-bits-69588/ for western and there's also one about snaffles/English types. In that thread the bit used to exemplify an angled shank is the kind of curb I used on a gelding I had that neck-reined very very well and had a very light mouth. It's really the only type of curb I've used in the recent years but that doesn't mean there aren't others that are more mild.


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## KSL (Oct 4, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> Tom Thumb, WOW


It's used for a lot of western practices. But, I never even touch it. I use maybe 1/2 pound of pressure at the most. 99% of the time, it lays flat.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

KSL said:


> It's used for a lot of western practices. But, I never even touch it. I use maybe 1/2 pound of pressure at the most. 99% of the time, it lays flat.


I rode Western for 7 years... We only used snaffles.. Even at shows where we placed in the top 3.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

KSL said:


> It's used for a lot of western practices. But, I never even touch it. I use maybe 1/2 pound of pressure at the most. 99% of the time, it lays flat.


Well... what if you have to use it? It's going to give that horse of yours, who's mostly used to bitless, a pretty nasty shock! :shock:

I would recommend switching to something more mild, particularly since your horses are used to riding bitless.

I'm curious (and I'm likely displaying my ignorance here, since I don't show a whole lot), but isn't a bosal legal for a lot of shows? I know our local show allows a bosal in Western Pleasure. Not sure what Western disciplines you show in but since your horses do well bitless, a bosal might be a better option than a bit, particularly a tom thumb.

Personally I never see any tom thumbs in use with any of the western riders around here. Most use mild curbs. Almost every cheaply made "complete bridle" comes with a tom thumb, but if I do buy a cheapie I take the bit off and replace it. I have one use for tom thumbs: a friend of mine made a very nice "windchime" hanging off her stable roof with a bunch of tom thumbs.


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## KSL (Oct 4, 2012)

It's the bit the horse works best with really. Snaffles slide through her moth and she throws her head around a lot. Not sure why she doesn't do it with a Tom Thumb, but we are thinking she was just started in that. I've tried a few milder, and she just acted differently (worse) and didn't perform as well because she was too busy messing with the bit. I've never tried those pictured. So I may look into those. 

Not sure if Bosals are legal. I have used one in local competition not sure about higher.


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## HighstepperLove (Aug 6, 2012)

a snaffle that is fitted correctly should not slide through her mouth.

Try a solid curb bit if you want a leverage bit. Not a jointed like a Tom Thumb... they can be pretty harsh. Something with a low port maybe.


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## KSL (Oct 4, 2012)

HighstepperLove said:


> a snaffle that is fitted correctly should not slide through her mouth.
> 
> Try a solid curb but if you want a leverage bit. Not a jointed. Something with a low port maybe.


Usually it's because she chews on it so bad and pulls it threw there and throws her head around. She hates it.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

KSL said:


> I've tried a few milder, and she just acted differently (worse) and didn't perform as well


This says to me it's not a bitting issue, it's a training hole.


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## HighstepperLove (Aug 6, 2012)

KSL said:


> Usually it's because she chews on it so bad and pulls it threw there and throws her head around. She hates it.


But she likes the Tom Thumb?? I have trouble believing that. A snaffle is much more gentle. They make a guard you can put on the sides of the snaffle to keep it from getting pulled through their mouth. Rubber Bit Guards Pair - Statelinetack.com
Inexpensive and effective. We use them on some of the Walking Horse bits if the horse needs them.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

KSL said:


> It's the bit the horse works best with really. Snaffles slide through her moth and she throws her head around a lot. Not sure why she doesn't do it with a Tom Thumb, but we are thinking she was just started in that. I've tried a few milder, and she just acted differently (worse) and didn't perform as well because she was too busy messing with the bit. I've never tried those pictured. So I may look into those.


Maybe look into an Argentine bit. Built somewhat like a tom thumb, but without as bad of a "nutcracker" action. 

A full cheek snaffle might help with the "sliding" issue, particularly if you use bit keepers.


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## KSL (Oct 4, 2012)

It's not a training issue because she doesn't do it to a Tom Thumb or an unbroken bit. 

I use it maybe twice a year so idk why it's an issue. 

I use snaffles with all my other horses and they do fine.


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## HighstepperLove (Aug 6, 2012)

Honestly, if I have one chewing the bit, I don't assume it's b/c they hate the bit I'm using, though. I check to make sure it's fitted correctly and the bridle is fitted correctly... Fitting correctly usually stops chewing.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

KSL said:


> It's not a training issue because she doesn't do it to a Tom Thumb or an unbroken bit.


It _is_ a training issue if the horse doesn't do it when you step up to a harsher bit. Sorry.


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## KSL (Oct 4, 2012)

We've had it fitted. She doesn't just chew, she performs worse and is really just worried about it and not her job.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Let's not forget that we also need to take the_ horse's_ preference into consideration. 

My TB absolutely HATED the rubber covered D-ring snaffle I originally had him in, and goes very happily in this. I'm quite well aware it looks like a torture device, but he's happy as a clam in it. Go figure!


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## HighstepperLove (Aug 6, 2012)

what type of snaffle are you using specifically that causes this issue? I'm curious about this... this is interesting and I'm concerned that this is a training issue also as mentioned by the other poster if a harsher bit is required.. A Tom Thumb is not a nice bit.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Speed Racer said:


> Let's not forget that we also need to take the_ horse's_ preference into consideration.
> 
> My TB absolutely HATED the rubber covered D-ring snaffle I originally had him in, and goes very happily in this. I'm quite well aware it looks like a torture device, but he's happy as a clam in it. Go figure!


I agree that you should tailor the bit choice to the horse's preference... However, there are mouth pieces in virtually any shape/size imaginable with a snaffle, just as there is with a curb. I do believe that every horse should have the foundations laid in a snaffle before ever needing to step up from there.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Oh yes, I agree Chiilaa, but JJ was just off the track when I took him on, and he went to my trainer's right after that. So I figured I could humor his bit preference, since he already had the foundation.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

SR - that's still a snaffle, so it's still a lot milder than a curb with a similar mouth


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If an eggbutt snaffle slips, you can try a D-ring snaffle or full cheek snaffle. An eggbutt 3 piece snaffle will slip more than I like in my mare's mouth, which is why I use a D-ring 2 piece. My gelding uses a full cheek 2-piece snaffle. Given their typical headset, I'm not worried about any 'nutcracker' action:


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Yes I know, but it's still more bit than I've ever used. I was rather shocked that JJ took to it like he'd designed it for himself! :wink:

I'm a big fan of the mildest bit necessary that still gets the job done. I've always used eggbutts, D-rings, and even loose ring snaffles. This is my first fullcheek with a port in over 30 years. 

I do want to add, if the bit is sliding around in the horse's mouth it's also a fit issue. I'm thinking it's probably too big.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I actually quite like a good full cheek. Especially for a younger horse, or one that needs to refresh aids.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Chiilaa said:


> I actually quite like a good full cheek. Especially for a younger horse, or one that needs to refresh aids.


Well, I guess JJ qualifies since he was 5 when I got him fresh off the track, and he's just 8 now.


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## KSL (Oct 4, 2012)

Speed Racer said:


> Oh yes, I agree Chiilaa, but JJ was just off the track when I took him on, and he went to my trainer's right after that. So I figured I could humor his bit preference, since he already had the foundation.


This is what I did with my horse as well.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

KSL said:


> This is what I did with my horse as well.


Didn't try the eggbutt though


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Yes, if your horse already has a foundation with learning bitted, then it's absolutely fine to tailor their preferences to a bit they find acceptable.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

My *only* gripe about the Eggbutt snaffle is that it *can* sit oddly in some horses' mouths, due to the elongated oval shape that the bit has. I really like the cheekpiece regardless, but I have found in a few horses that it just sat funny..


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> Let's not forget that we also need to take the_ horse's_ preference into consideration.
> 
> My TB absolutely HATED the rubber covered D-ring snaffle I originally had him in, and goes very happily in this. I'm quite well aware it looks like a torture device, but he's happy as a clam in it. Go figure!


I fight with myself on this on a very regular basis. I'm a snaffle gal... my principles are built on being able to ride well in a snaffle, but damnit, Ronan much prefers the two ring elevator. He goes very quietly in it, plays with the bit, slobbers up a storm, and just seems happier in it. With a loose ring Myler or KK, he's much fussier. I *will* get him going well in a snaffle, but part of me is thinking "why mess with a good thing?"


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

JustDressageIt said:


> I fight with myself on this on a very regular basis. I'm a snaffle gal... my principles are built on being able to ride well in a snaffle, but damnit, Ronan much prefers the two ring elevator. He goes very quietly in it, plays with the bit, slobbers up a storm, and just seems happier in it. With a loose ring Myler or KK, he's much fussier. I *will* get him going well in a snaffle, but part of me is thinking "why mess with a good thing?"


Are the mouth pieces identical in the KK or Myler and the elevator? Mylers have a lot of tongue relief, some horses prefer a little tongue contact so they can pick the bit up off their bars when idle. Tongues are more cushy, absorb the pressure, so some horses prefer tongue pressure than bar pressure. I'm not sure about KK but I know the metal they use is supposed to taste real good, maybe that makes him mess with it more? trying to roll it around and get the flavor out? Maybe try a snaffle that has an identical mouth piece as your elevator bit? Or perhaps he likes having poll contact reinforce and absorb some of your cue, have you looked into baucher bits?









It's got similar poll action but less extreme than an elevator bit, it'd be close to the same as an elevator bit if you put the reins just on the top ring. It comes with all sorts of mouth pieces, not just french link.

Just a thought


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I loved the look of the Myler bits, made all sorts of sense to me, but not one horse that I've used them with has suddenly started going really well, and a few hate them. 


Punk, want to borrow a flame suit? you made need one, Baucher bits don't have poll pressure, 1 2 3 run


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Golden really? Than can you explain them to me? I'm not fully sure how they work, I guess it was just an assumption based on the design. I'd really like to know how it actually works.

BTWI felt the same about Mylers, the designs all looked so perfect, but I find most horses really either don't care or don't like them.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

No poll pressure because there is no leverage point. I've considered trying a Baucher, but haven't found one in a local tack store... beyond having a zillion bits, I just spent a crapload on a new saddle... so I'm still trying to stop my heart from pounding in my chest. Haha.

ETA - generally *I* like double jointed bits better on principle, but the elevator is a single jointed bit. Go figure. Horse is trying to confuse me all around.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

The truth about the Baucher Snaffle Bit- rattling the cage

I stand corrected - Thank you Golden for educating me! I guess that was just a silly assumption on my part  That was very interesting to learn about, makes sense though.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I'll see if I can explain, simple physics, to get leverage you need to have a fulcrum and a lever










if you swing this pic around 90 degrees, and imagine the fulcrum as the bar of the bit, you can see that the and pushing and pulling the lever moves the rock up and down, right? now see it as the hand pulling on the reins creates a pulling motion on the bridle, causing pressure on the poll.


Now if there is no lever, there can be no pressure, so look again at the baucher bit, the load point is actually at the bit, so at the fulcrum point, so there can be no leverage.

I hope this makes sense, it's the first time i have tried to explain it in writing


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

No, that totally makes sense. Looking at it I kind of assumed a rein stayed in one place and tilts the bit down, pulling the cheek pieces forward and thus applying poll pressure. But because the reins aren't stationary, they'd slide up and down when pulled, the cheek pieces simply wouldn't change. If there were a loop for the reins, like a kimberwick, it would tilt the bit and pull pressure onto the poll. But it doesn't - that's where I was mistaken. Thank you for helping me understand that bit!


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

That's really interesting! What I'm curious about though is - if it doesn't act on leverage, how is it any different from an eggbutt where the cheek piece of the bridle connects directly to the ring? Is there a difference in the way the pressure is distributed on the bars? Or the amount of "force" required to bring the bit into action (i.e. could it be used for direct reining in a more subtle way than an eggbutt)?

Really curious


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Good point Evil, I'm curious too, why did they make it like that if not for leverage? Does it soften the cue or make it stronger I can't decide?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I think the difference is that the bit is held in position instead of being able to rotate on the end of the cheek pieces.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

So how does it differ from say, a full cheek with keepers? aside from not having the lower bar?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

It's held steady in the horse's mouth by having a fixed point. 
The difference between the Baucher and Full Cheek is lateral contact; the full cheek has a lot of lateral contact - i.e. if you pull on the right rein, the left cheekpiece pushes against the left side of the mouth, creating lateral pressure, this bit is particularly good for young horses that need a bit more direction.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Thanks JDI! Yes, I use full cheeks for exactly that purpose, I guess I could use a baucher as the next step up. The more I learn about it the more I really like it! 

Thanks for the education everyone


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

after selling three bits.. this is making me want another..


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

baucher bits do have poll action. not much, but heres how:









the 2 red dots, one is on the mouthpiece and the other is on the furthest part of the ring from the mouthpiece. when the rein is pulled, it will either A: slide to be where the 2nd red dot is, or B: cause the bit to rotate then slide to where the 2nd red dot is. either way, when pulled, where the rein attaches to the ring, and where the ring attaches to the mouthpiece will always align to be as far away from eachother as possible. in the same way oval shaped links in a chain, when under pressure, always join to their neighbouring links as far away from eachother as possible.

now because rein pressure comes from aproximately the direction of the big blue patch, the 2nd red dot on the ring will move to where the yellow dot is, which will cause the bit to rotate (as mentioned above), and the green dot will move to where the orange dot is. shortening the length of the cheek strap of the bridle, therefore applying poll pressure.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

That's exactly what I was thinking when looking at the bit's photo, but I think you'd need to hold you're hands pretty high, pull pretty hard, or have sticky reins to make it happen to the point where it'd actually make a difference.

Thank you, I love diagrams xD


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Now that I really analyze it, you can see in this picture how the bit DID rotate AND apply poll pressure, but you'll also notice the reins are awfully tight.









I found a really interesting description that I think explains it very well:










 The Baucher at rest - the cheeks are always attached to the small ring and the reins to the one main bit ring.
 When a contact is taken the upper arms tilt forwards causing poll pressure and suspending the bit in the mouth – not only useful for promoting an outline but very beneficial for sensitive mouths as the pressure within the mouth is alleviated.
When a contact is taken the upper arm is angled forwards causing the mouthpiece to lift - thereby suspending it in the mouth and reducing the pressure across the tongue and the bars - this is often beneficial for cases of over sensitivity. Any extension above the mouthpiece causes poll pressure - this in itself has a head lowering action. However, if the horse is going forward into a contact and active behind this will encourage a rounding action and help tremendously with the outline. This cheek is dressage legal as a Snaffle (on its own) or as a Bradoon used in conjunction with a Weymouth. The legal limit for the length of the baucher/hanging cheek snaffle is 12 cm - this is from top to bottom - not just the upper arm.




I honestly can't decide which idea makes more sense I think I need to just buy one and experiment!!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

PunksTank said:


> I honestly can't decide which idea makes more sense I think I need to just buy one and experiment!!


Good plan LOL


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I still can't see how a Baucher adds poll pressure; there aren't two fixed points, nor is the rein lower than the mouthpiece. Purps, the bit may be rotating but there's no way to tell from that picture if there is poll pressure. The full cheek is essentially the same thing with bit keepers.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

ANd again I just have to agree with JDI:wink:


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

So I did go buy one and messed with it. It has no curb chain - thus no leverage. 
BUT when you pull on the reins because of the angle of your hands it Does twist the bit in the horse's mouth and does pull on the cheek pieces. Not anywhere near the amount an elevator bit or any equivalent would. After discussing it with the people at the tack shop, holding it my and hands and having fake reins messing with it for a good 20 minutes. If you pull straight back the bit won't turn and so no poll pressure - but if you pull back with the height of sitting on top of the horse you're pulling up on the bit causing it to tilt down. It takes higher hands and a little more pull to actually cause the poll pressure. But IMO I think this is not meant to be poll pressure like in a curb bit, to cause a horse to lower their head, but instead just be a gentle cue to help remind a horse to break at the poll. The pressure added is minute, but it's enough for a finely trained horse.
Gonna try to explain it step by step.
Bit is untouched in the horses mount the b shape of the rings are sitting straight, no poll pressure. When you pull back - if your hands are directly in line with the horses mouth there would be no poll pressure. But as our hands naturally sit higher than their mouth when riding, just about at their withers we are pulling up. When you pull up the bit V's out this V tilts the bit forward, pushing pressure on the cheek pieces and then the poll. It's only a tiny amount, but the higher you hold your hands the more poll pressure you could get with it. Of course it takes a strong pull and high hands to make it happen though.

Sorry for that being all jumbled up just trying to explain what I saw clearly


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I can understand what you're saying Punks as its not that different to a kimberwick or a pelham ridden with a 'D' rather than two reins without a curb chain
I've seen people in the UK use them like that as you get some poll pressure and more control than a plain or straight snaffle but not as much leverage pressure as you get with a curb chain
It could be argued that the port makes them harsher but I've known horses to be happier in a ported bit than they are in the nutcracker action of a jointed snaffle


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Where did the port come from? Most pelhams don't go beyond a mullen mouth or a tiny tongue relief type...well it really isn't a port, more of a hump?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> Where did the port come from? Most pelhams don't go beyond a mullen mouth or a tiny tongue relief type...well it really isn't a port, more of a hump?


 Thats the closest thing we get to a ported bit in the UK!!!


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

PunksTank said:


> It has no curb chain - thus no leverage.


don't need a curb chain to have leverage. if the bridle is tight enough to restrict the rotation of the purchase then the mouthpiece will act as the fulcrum.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

christopher said:


> don't need a curb chain to have leverage. if the bridle is tight enough to restrict the rotation of the purchase then the mouthpiece will act as the fulcrum.


But the 'fulcrum' and 'leverage' points are on the same plane...??? No leverage.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> Where did the port come from? Most pelhams don't go beyond a mullen mouth or a tiny tongue relief type...well it really isn't a port, more of a hump?



That's funny, around me most Pelham's are ported or broken mouth - I've never seen a mullen mouth one around here but would like that!


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

jaydee said:


> I can understand what you're saying Punks as its not that different to a kimberwick or a pelham ridden with a 'D' rather than two reins without a curb chain
> I've seen people in the UK use them like that as you get some poll pressure and more control than a plain or straight snaffle but not as much leverage pressure as you get with a curb chain
> It could be argued that the port makes them harsher but I've known horses to be happier in a ported bit than they are in the nutcracker action of a jointed snaffle


Yes Exactly!! It's like using a kimberwick or a pelham without the chain! It adds a tiny amount of poll pressure, just enough to help give the horse the idea to break at the poll. 
I'm not sure though how a ported or mullen mouth bit is harsher than a jointed bit? Maybe stronger than a french link? I'm not sure?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> Yes Exactly!! It's like using a kimberwick or a pelham without the chain! It adds a tiny amount of poll pressure, just enough to help give the horse the idea to break at the poll.
> I'm not sure though how a ported or mullen mouth bit is harsher than a jointed bit? Maybe stronger than a french link? I'm not sure?


 I'm not sure either - mainly because different horses can go better in one or other. The break(s) in the snaffles might put less direct pressure on the bars and the tongue but if you start pulling too much on them the nutcracker action must make them harsher. I think the thing with the ported bits is that they are usually associated with leverage but I have a loose ring staight bit with a (very low) port that someone gave me ages ago and I've had a couple who disliked jointed bits and leverage that went well in it. I've no idea what its called.


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