# Bucked Off - 1, 2...3 times TODAY!!!!!



## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

**

I've also been out to the pasture several times this afternoon and evening to talk to her and I even groomed her. I wasn't going to give her grain tonight but thought she did such a good job AFTER the incident, that she deserved it. She's been fine. Her ground manners are wonderful...


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

** 
OH. Previous owner said the first stride is a little rough but once she starts moving, it smooths out. That even when she broke her, she NEVER bucked!


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

and dammit - I ripped ANOTHER pair of jeans! grrrrrr


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

Found this quote from Scout... awhile back on a different thread:
* He'd apparently never cantered with a girth tightened before. He got a little excited in the trot and goosed up into a canter, and the girth caught him and he threw a little buck that I wasn't expecting, and I ate arena dirt.* Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/english-riding/how-many-times-have-you-been-46938/#ixzz1IXKUoele
​

Could it REALLY be that simple???? Prev owner rides with her girth loose-not tight. I remember mentioning this to her when I tested Chili out bc when I went to get up, the saddle slipped. She told me she was taught to ride that way. She also said Chili had a soft mouth (in a Jr Cowhorse bit?) 

Could it REALLY BE THAT SIMPLE!?!?!!? Could that be why Chili turns her head to look at me when I'm cinching her up??? (like she did the one time she bit me - she bit when I was "prodding" a sore spot). 

Could it REALLY really be that simple?

And if so, why did she buck at the canter bareback??????


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

First of all, I'm glad you were not hurt badly! 

What do you mean by riding with LOOSE girth? :shock: That's asking for troubles in 1st place (unless you are VERY balanced and on well-trained horse). I can fit 2 fingers under my girth (either western or english) and that's it. 

Frankly in situation like that horse clearly lets you know something is not right. And personally after the 2nd buck instead of being insistent and putting both of you at risk, I'd put her on lunge to see if she'd buck without the rider. To me it sounds like back issue, not girth or even training issue. Yanking on horse's nose with the bosal because you were ****ed off is the biggest no-no. I doubt she understood what she did wrong, but you can make the horse head or bridle-shy this way. You should NOT work the horse when you are frustrated. They feel and pick on our feelings (with that being said I do get frustrated at times too, but trying to keep it under control). Instead just get off and make it work on ground.


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

When she told me she rode that way I had the same expression!! 

I honestly thought she was just ... I don't know what I thought. From everything we'd been told about her, from riding her even, she'd never offered to buck. Except the day I bought her, with me on board - but we all attributed that to not having been ridden in a while. Why they thought to tell me this AFTER I got on her - :SHRUG:

I don't know what to think about not getting back on vs just lunging her. I suppose if I think about it, work is work, regardless of whether or not I'm mounted or on the ground. But I've always been taught to get back up. 

If it's her back - wouldn't she have a problem walking/trotting? 

TBH, I wasn't ****ed. In fact, the whole time, I've been worried that there was something wrong - worried that I'm doing something wrong - worried that we just aren't a good fit together (I've said for awhile that I think she hates me!) I never ever ever would've done something like that had I not been around several different horse people ("been around horses all my life and you can't let them get away with...." kinda people) and while I do not wholeheartedly agree with the method - I have seen first hand how it has worked. HOWEVER, this is the first time I've ever implemented it. The previous owner even suggested to use a stud chain while lunging her and if she bucks while lunging to give it a snap. I couldn't - I'd be terrified of breaking her nose!!!!

I don't know what to do or what to think. Yanno, I was gonna say that it has only happened since I've used this western saddle but now that I'm thinking back to trying out the other saddles, she did it with each of them too, just not as severely and I was able to stay seated. In fact, the only other time she's gone faster than a canter was in the barn owner's saddle (too small) and I remember that gut wrenching feeling of "oh ****e, I'm not gonna be able to stop her" moment. 

If it's her back, who do I turn to first?


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## Yoshi (Feb 6, 2011)

Horses aren't nasty/naughty for the sake of it. It sounds to me like your horse has a serious back issue. I would get an osteopath out to her as soon as possible. 
It's one thing to be bucked off because of a young horse's exuberance, but to be bucked off three times during one session, to my mind, is that your horse was trying to tell you something and you weren't listening to her. 
The thing, is that it ISN'T easy to listen to a horse and to interpret what he's trying to say!
I would definitely try lungeing your horse without a saddle. I don't know anything about Western saddles as I ride English, but if they are anything like English saddles then you need to ensure that it is a perfect fit for your horse. Saddles can pinch, rub, slip, move around and this can cause pain, fear and soreness. Obviously you know this already! Can you get a master saddler out to check your saddle fitting? 

I hope that you find out the cause of this and, in the meantime, stay safe!


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

Yoshi - Luv the new name btw!  
We live in the middle of nowhere. I'm lucky we have a farrier! There is one vet and he makes "housecalls" once a week and I didn't like him for my dogs but it doesn't look like I'll have much of a choice. I do not think there is a saddle fitter anywhere near here.... 

I honestly cannot remember if I attempted to canter in the English saddle I have (currently testing it out too) and TBH, I'm petrified to try! 

I have done so much research to make sure the saddle fits.... My biggest concern with this one is that it looks a little long, but it's 2" shorter than the saddle that the prev owner used on her (I measured them both). 

My hope is that we can figure it out because I love Chili. I do not want to hurt her and have tried everything I know to do what is right for her... I just didn't want her to think I was afraid by not getting back up.


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

and wouldn't lunging her with the saddle alone be totally different than with a rider due to the weight? 

What if it's from the bouncing I do in the saddle? This would atone for it happening some of the time and not everytime - as well as happening bareback and in the saddle. Her first stride is really rough - the 2nd and 3rd, I'm able to relax and move with her and then WHAM - she bucks. Makes sense, bc I'm sure my 175 lbs bouncing on her isn't cozy!!!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Chele11 said:


> If it's her back, who do I turn to first?


Chiropractor, some time off, and saddle fitter to be 100% positive it's not because of the saddle (or at least make lots of pics and post it for opinion on fit).


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## Yoshi (Feb 6, 2011)

Chele11 said:


> Yoshi - Luv the new name btw!


:lol: Thanks!! One of my cats is called Yoshi..... :wink:

If you can lunge your horse first without the saddle and then with to see if you can see a difference. 
The other thing that comes to mind is, that even though your saddle is shorter than that of the previous owner, it could have been their saddle (not yours) which has caused some back pain and that your horse is reacting to your saddle which is now hurting her back, if this makes sense?

Some other factors to consider:

* If a horse is cooped up in a stable with no exercise for a few days, then he will be full of beans due to pent up energy

* High energy foods: look at what you're feeding your horse. Is she on haylege or hay? What's your spring grass like? Do you feed her oats? 

* If she is newly broken in, then perhaps she is having trouble accepting the saddle and rider weight. The reaction is to buck to get rid of it. 


I would eliminate all these things one by one and then, if the problem persists, try to get an osteopath if you can, to rule out physical pain.
Has she had her teeth checked recently? Teeth can cause all sorts of problems. She might have a wolf tooth which is hurting her due to the bit in her mouth. 

Wouldn't it be so much easier if they could talk??!


[/LIST]


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## makin tracks (Jan 25, 2009)

Can you have someone else ride her and see how she goes for them?

Maybe you are inadvertently doing something or perhaps she has just learned that she can get you off now.

I had a horse once who did not like me and would throw me off. My husband (who couldn't ride) took him on a trail ride with no problems but I was never given a good ride. Sometimes a horse just doesn't like you.

Just throwing some ideas out there but if you aren't confident with her then maybe you shouldn't persist. You don't (as you said) want to get really hurt.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Chele11 said:


> and wouldn't lunging her with the saddle alone be totally different than with a rider due to the weight?
> 
> What if it's from the bouncing I do in the saddle? This would atone for it happening some of the time and not everytime - as well as happening bareback and in the saddle. Her first stride is really rough - the 2nd and 3rd, I'm able to relax and move with her and then WHAM - she bucks. Makes sense, bc I'm sure my 175 lbs bouncing on her isn't cozy!!!


If it's a back/saddle issue she'll most probably will buck on lunge as well. As for being bouncy you can look into the shock-absorbing pad (Thinline). It's NOT cheap, but it worth it. I had similar issue several years back - my paint bucked on canter because of my bouncy bum :wink: . I did lots of research and ended up with Thinline contour (also one of the cheapest by Thinline).


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## Yoshi (Feb 6, 2011)

Just another thought: what are your legs doing when you canter? After a long break from riding, my lower legs developed a mind of their own and were all over the place. Whenever I cantered, they wouldn't remains still in place and because they moved around, they tickled my horse's sides, which he hated and would therefore buck.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Well, there are too many issues here to address in one sitting. The GOOD news --- you did not get hurt. The BAD news --- you have done a lot of things wrong. You have done what you would do to turn a horse into a bronc and give them great confidence that they can do it well.

First, you should first teach her to give you her head. People now call it a 'one rein stop'. Then, when a horse bows up and tries to buck, you can snatch their head around and stop them. To pull on both reins at the same time just gives them the leverage they need to launch you over their head. You become the object launched out of a sling shot. You will never be able to out-pull a horse using both reins, but you can make them give you their head to one rein, even if you are not a strong rider.

If you teach this horse to give you her head, you have a chance to stop her from taking up bucking seriously.

Now for all of the 'don'ts'.

1) Don't ever add a new piece of equipment or add a new scary lesson WHEN A HORSE IS FRESH. I have seen many very well trained horses have a come-apart when a back cinch was added when they were fresh. Ride one on a long ride and add a back cinch after you get home. Ride around with it on a tired horse and they learn to accept it right away. If I am going to teach a horse to accept a slicker being put on and off or accept dragging a log or tire with a rope or pony a horse where the rope can get behind them or under their tail, you can bet it will be at the end of a long ride. Their reaction to something new will be 'set' by their first experience with it. You can instill fear or confidence --- the choice is yours and depends how you introduce it.

2) If a horse is 'un-settled', upset (like yours was), has a history of being a little 'cold backed' (like yours does), acts a lot differently than it usually does, WARM THE HORSE UP. EITHER TROT AND THEN LOPE SEVERAL CIRCLES in a confining area, (where it is easier to pull a horse around and stop it) before heading out in the open where you are more at the mercy of what the horse decides to do. I will lope very 'fresh' horses or horses that I have not ridden in several weeks 

3) If you are not a well balanced 'good' rider, you should warm an 'un-settled' horse on a longe line or in a round pen WITHOUT A SADDLE. Trainers call it 'knocking the air out of one'. It makes a really 'fresh' horse much more settled and not have as much 'feel good energy'. NEVER let a horse buck with a saddle. Some get it out of their system (as it is sometimes called) and other just get practice and learn to like it and do it more and better. So, I think it is very important to NOT let any horse practice bucking.

4) If your horse is stalled and has not been ridden in a while, TURN IT OUT to run and play BEFORE you saddle it up to ride. Remember that any time you are handling or attempting to control a horse, it should not play or behave in a uncontrolled way. That means that the longe line is not for running and playing -- it is for serious work. If you cannot control a horse on the end of a rope, you probably cannot control it very well under your saddle. It means you need to learn how to control a horse in all situations or your relationship is a ticking time-bomb.

I have to go now, but I need to show people how to put a type of 'over-check' on a horse that they can be ridden with. This stops a horse from lowering its head which it has to do to buck hard. I just have to get to an appointment now.


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## jwells84 (Mar 29, 2011)

Here's what I would do. 1. check saddle fit.
2. if she's shod, check her shoes (I've had a horse get a sore back because he wasn't shod properly)
3.lunge her first w/o a saddle/ then with to see if you can see a difference in her movement.
4. find somone to ride her so you can watch(make sure to tell me about the bucking)
5. If no problems are found, then it could be just a habbit. sooo make sure you have plenty of control at a walk/trot, you need to be able to apply a ORS and come to a halt. when you ask her to lope/canter, start with a small circle(it'll be harder for her to buck in a small circle) if she bucks, pull her head up and round to your knee and make her work her hind end(disengage the hindquarters) really get after her. She needs to know this is not acceptable behavior, even if it is because of you bouncing. Do not let her lope/canter in a straight line till she stops bucking in the circle and you are mostly positive you can trust her not to buck. How I do this is start small every time, the longer there is no bucking slowly make your circle bigger, if she stays good (not bucking) then try to straighten her out,but be ready to bring her to a stop and disengage her hindquarter, and get after her if she bucks. repeat as necessary.


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## dee (Jul 30, 2009)

She could also have been ****y because Gracie left - her calling out was a pretty good indication she was upset. Some horses also just don't behave when it's windy. My mare is fine with it, but daughters Paso mare is impossible when it's windy - even on the ground. You can watch her go insane when she's in the pasture when there's a high wind. Yesterday she kept running in big circles. Being in heat didn't help any, either, but we had a real Oklahoma wind storm yesterday, and most of the horses were pretty silly.

Try lunging with each of your saddles and bareback and see how she does. She may not buck, but watch her ears and her tail - they can tell you a lot about how she's feeling. 

You can also check her back yourself for tender/sore spots. Use firm (not real hard) pressure on either side of her withers and down on both sides of her spine. (sides - in the muscle - not on the spine itself) I rub in little circles using increasing pressure. Dancer loves it. The only spot on her that I found that was sore was (fortunately) not on her back, but on her right side near her flank. Actually, the trainer found it the hard way the other day - she was working Dancer on the ground and asked for a side pass, and pushed (not hard) with the but of her lunge whip, and Dancer kicked - first time we've ever seen her kick at anything. After making her move her feet to show that kicking was not allowed..._ever_, the trainer started checking out her side and back, and found the sore muscle. (another reason why we are keeping our riding sessions really short). It's much better now. Trainer thought she probably just rolled funny and strained or pulled a muscle. Dancer's been enjoying the massages on that sore muscle!


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

You mention that your new saddle is 2" shorter than the one she was ridden in. Maybe, just maybe it is too short and when you get on her, your added weight is putting pressure on her kidneys and it is hurting her. maybe the saddle is too short on her back.
I would lunge her without the saddle first and see how she behaves. Then lunge her with the saddle and see what happens. If she is fine without, then bucks with it on, I would suspect its the saddle putting pressure on her back and she is painful.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Different gaits stress different parts of the body. The canter is the only gait with an odd number of beats, so a lot of problems come to a head at the canter. A horse could very well be fine at the walk and trot, and blow up at the canter. I've known a few horses to tell their rider they hate their saddle at a canter - an old friend of mine used to dread trying a new saddle on her mare fir that reason - she would lunge wtc, ride fine wt and the canter was the defining gait. It cam also be a downhill gait for some horses, depending on their conformation, so a wither-sore horse might be exacerbated at the canter. 
In short, lots of problems can arise at the canter and no other gait due to the movement involved. 
Really glad you're ok!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I agree with the others on saddle fit but the biggest cause may be your riding. If you bounce you are slamming down on her back with every stride, added to tension from the bosal (which is designed to be used with a loose rein) & bucking results. I don't know how you ride but most people who bounce tend to keep the reins tight & grip with their lower legs, which no horse likes.
I would not speed a horse up heading towards home, especially one with control issues.
As she never bucked before & she does with you even bareback your riding may be the cause. Maybe have someone video you & study it to see if you see any rider errors.
Use a helmet & stay safe.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Wow! Where to start... This will probably end up long.

The bucking: Even though you have been riding her often, you say it's usually been in the arena. When she bucked you off you were outside, it was warming up and it was breezy/windy. It's springtime, and horses get frisky/spunky. They've been couped up during the winter, and kind of get like us with cabin fever. They get a "WooHoo" feeling when they get to canter. When horses buck, they can stretch out. 

It could be other problems too. It could be a problem with her back but I wouldn't be to quick to call a vet or chiropractor. It could be a problem with the saddle but she probably would have acted out at walk and trot too. It could be the back cinch, but I doubt it since you took it off. It could be that she was throwing a tantrum because she didn't want to work or she wanted to take off and you wouldn't let her.

What I would do with her is take her back in the arena and ask her to to transition through walk, trot and canter. Or you could lunge her with and without the saddle and the same with the cinch. Eliminate different factors. She may buck again at the start of the canter but try to push her through it.

If she has used a bit before, which I think you said she had, I would used it until you get this worked out. I don't think the bosal is a problem, but you'd have more control with the bit. You can go back to the bosal when she starts responding better.

Her wanting to go faster than you do: Instead of keeping pressure to hold her back, do one rein stops or make her go in circles. Then go back to what you were doing at first and repeat if she tries again. They can learn to brace against the steady pressure, learn to avoid it and go faster. 

English saddle pinches your legs: They will do that, so either wear tall boots or use half chaps.

Yanking on the bosal: It may not have been the best thing to do, but it happened. I don't think it was the worst either. At least it wasn't a bit in her mouth. I really don't think it would make her head shy unless you do it often. I will admit, I had done it with a bit, not real hard but I regretted it immediately. It's not always so easy to keep our emotions in check. I do think making them work and work hard is the best reprimand. I do think it was enough to let her know that you are her leader still since she listened to you afterward.

Getting back on or working on the ground: Even if you don't get back on after you come off, as long as she gets worked, she's not getting away with it. If she was to get untacked and put away, then she is getting away with it. You can work her on the ground and then either get back on, preferably, or not.

In my opinion, it was just the springtime jitters that got her to buck you off. I hope you get it worked out. I also had two horses buck on me this weekend. One was when I asked for the canter on our 4 y.o. gelding. I was expecting it because he's been spunky in the paddock. The other was on our 'seasoned' mare, 11 y. o. She wanted to open up and I wouldn't let her. I had her do a few tight circles and asked her to walk again and she was fine. It's just that time of year.


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

I have no idea how to "quote" and respond to each one of these without making multiple posts, so I used notepad to copy/paste and respond and then pasted here....My responses are all in *bold*.

YOSHI:
The other thing that comes to mind is, that even though your saddle is shorter than that of the previous owner, it could have been their saddle (not yours) which has caused some back pain and that your horse is reacting to your saddle which is now hurting her back, if this makes sense?
*- Doubtful as the saddle she has is a Circle Y and the one I am testing is a noname brand.*
* If she is newly broken in, then perhaps she is having trouble accepting the saddle and rider weight. The reaction is to buck to get rid of it.
*- She is not newly broken in but has been difficult "refreshing"*

Just another thought: what are your legs doing when you canter? 
*In the saddle, I suck. Period. I admit it. Bareback, however, I ride fairly well. It's because EVERY bit of riding I've done has been primarily bareback. Or English. I don't *think* my legs are floppin' around.*

MAKIN TRACKS:
Can you have someone else ride her and see how she goes for them?
*- Am trying to do that now, especially by the previous owner (she is becoming a friend!) to see how she acts for her. If not, I know a few other people who might be able to check her out for me.*

Maybe you are inadvertently doing something or perhaps she has just learned that she can get you off now.
*- I dunno which of those bothers me more!!!*

I had a horse once who did not like me and would throw me off. My husband (who couldn't ride) took him on a trail ride with no problems but I was never given a good ride. Sometimes a horse just doesn't like you.
*- An ongoing fear. Chili is my first horse. I have thought several times that I should sell her/trade her and get something with more time under saddle. But I FEEL that we will work it out, and so, I keep at it.*

Just throwing some ideas out there but if you aren't confident with her then maybe you shouldn't persist. You don't (as you said) want to get really hurt.
*- It's not so much that I'm not confident with HER as I'm not confident in MYSELF. I do, however, know my limitations. And I'm VERY persistent!!!*

KITTEN VAL: 
*- Once we get this saddle thing figured out, I will prolly invest in a good pad anyway - thank you for the info! I do not like the one I have now. It's thick and - clunky?*


CHERIE:
If you teach this horse to give you her head, you have a chance to stop her from taking up bucking seriously.

*- I know the circle methods and employ them on Chili. I did not know about the ORS until I read TinyLiny's bucking thread from awhile back. I will employ it from now on. Makes sense that pulling back two handed will simply give them more leverage. Obviously, I did not think about it yesterday!*

Now for all of the 'don'ts'.

1) Don't ever add a new piece of equipment or add a new scary lesson WHEN A HORSE IS FRESH. 
*- Define "FRESH". I didn't know she'd never had the back cinch used previously until AFTER I'd already used it the last time with this saddle and she did fine (except at a canter) so didn't think it would be a problem using it again - just loosely. I will obviously, not be using it again. But. To clarify. She had the back cinch on the FIRST time she bucked, not afterwards.*

2) If a horse is 'un-settled', upset (like yours was), has a history of being a little 'cold backed' (like yours does), acts a lot differently than it usually does, WARM THE HORSE UP. EITHER TROT AND THEN LOPE SEVERAL CIRCLES in a confining area, (where it is easier to pull a horse around and stop it) before heading out in the open where you are more at the mercy of what the horse decides to do. I will lope very 'fresh' horses or horses that I have not ridden in several weeks
*- I ride her at least every other day - even if for only short periods of time. I just rode her the day before yesterday - not very long mind you, but I rode her. SHE DOES NOT (normally) HAVE THIS PROBLEM WHEN I RIDE BAREBACK. Yesterday was a clear exception. I had just ridden her the day before, so I didn't consider her "fresh".....*

3) If you are not a well balanced 'good' rider, you should warm an 'un-settled' horse on a longe line or in a round pen WITHOUT A SADDLE. Trainers call it 'knocking the air out of one'. It makes a really 'fresh' horse much more settled and not have as much 'feel good energy'. NEVER let a horse buck with a saddle. Some get it out of their system (as it is sometimes called) and other just get practice and learn to like it and do it more and better. So, I think it is very important to NOT let any horse practice bucking.
*- Is it your opinion that this should be done prior to EVERY ride, no matter how long or short and if so, for how long and until when? Good advice on the bucking with the saddle - make sense.*

DEE:
*- Gracie leaving I'm fairly certain had a lot to do with it. Thinking on the entire situation, I also believe the wind had something to do with it. Perhaps I wasn't as clear about the weather. It was beautiful outside (to housebound humans who hate cold weather!) but it was very windy. Burn ban windy. Today, is worse. So even though it's not raining, I'm not going to work her.*

Try lunging with each of your saddles and bareback and see how she does. She may not buck, but watch her ears and her tail - they can tell you a lot about how she's feeling.
* I have lunged her before and she gets this wild eyed look. I know she's been lunged before - I've seen them lunge her.*


*- She seems to be tender when I brush her back with more effort (getting all those darned winter fuzzies off is difficult!!) but I dunno if it's tender or if she has the same "syndrome" my dogs do.... Yanno when you scratch that one spot that makes them scratch really fast with their leg? Same concept except she doesn't scratch, she kinda bends her back a little - dips it. Doesn't eyeball me like she's gonna bite, doesn't swish her tail like she's gonna kick. Just dips a little. So, I don't know.*

NATISHA:
As she never bucked before & she does with you even bareback your riding may be the cause. Maybe have someone video you & study it to see if you see any rider errors.
*- She only bucked with me bareback this one time. She's never offerd to buck previously to that with me riding bareback. But then, I've also not attempted to canter with her bareback. I am riding in rhythm with her strides when she trots. Barely any bounce at all (unless she is at a faster trot and then slows to a rougher trot, then I mgiht get a li'l bouncy for a second). She has, for the most part, a VERY smooth trot. It's one of the things I love about her!*

USANDPETS:
The bucking: Even though you have been riding her often, you say it's usually been in the arena. When she bucked you off you were outside, it was warming up and it was breezy/windy. It's springtime, and horses get frisky/spunky. They've been couped up during the winter, and kind of get like us with cabin fever. They get a "WooHoo" feeling when they get to canter. When horses buck, they can stretch out.
*- My theories too.*

What I would do with her is take her back in the arena and ask her to to transition through walk, trot and canter. Or you could lunge her with and without the saddle and the same with the cinch. Eliminate different factors. She may buck again at the start of the canter but try to push her through it.
*- Push her through it on board or on the ground? If I take her into the arena, I risk the same issue of being thrown as I do in the open - if she canters and bucks, I'm (more than likely) gonna be thrown. Not looking forward to that!! It's my only "fear" at this point. *

If she has used a bit before, which I think you said she had, I would used it until you get this worked out. I don't think the bosal is a problem, but you'd have more control with the bit. You can go back to the bosal when she starts responding better.
*- She has had a bit. We've tried several on her. I was going to use a Snaffle until I got the bosal. Since the bosal has worked VERY well, I decided to forgo the Snaffle. I've been riding her in the bosal for 2 wks every day/every other day. I have less control over her with the bits we've used than with the bosal. BUT. I can try again.*

English saddle pinches your legs: They will do that, so either wear tall boots or use half chaps.
*- UGH!  *


*When the wind dies down - I will work her, rain or not. Unfortunately, we do not have an indoor arena. As I've said before, the "arena" I have is actually just a smaller, almost perfectly rectangular fenced pasture. Anyway. I feel better having posted all my bad things and knowing there is help!!! THANK YOU ALL for responding. If anyone else has further input, feel free to post!*


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Personally I think you need to do a lot more time on the ground. I would take her out today in the wind but only ground work until she's calm. The minute she's calm is the minute she gets to go back to her field.


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

Personally I think you need to do a lot more time on the ground. I would take her out today in the wind but only ground work until she's calm. The minute she's calm is the minute she gets to go back to her field. 
Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=985920#ixzz1IZbgZ9VL

I would but this wind isn't normal wind. It's a storm and I can't go out there with my 3 yr old daughter in it. 
​


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

Chele11 said:


> *- Doubtful as the saddle she has is a Circle Y and the one I am testing is a noname brand.*


Brand of saddle doesn't = good or poor fit. You can have an extremely high-quality saddle that doesn't fit and a cheapy one that does. 

If the saddle you are using doesn't fit her, that could explain the bucking. If you use a narrow saddle on a wide horse, it will pinch them and they will let you know that "hey, this HURTS!!".


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

Delfina said:


> Brand of saddle doesn't = good or poor fit. You can have an extremely high-quality saddle that doesn't fit and a cheapy one that does.
> 
> If the saddle you are using doesn't fit her, that could explain the bucking. If you use a narrow saddle on a wide horse, it will pinch them and they will let you know that "hey, this HURTS!!".


I completely understand this. But there are "noname" brands to steer clear from with English and I'd assume here are the same with Western. 

If the saddle doesn't fit, I'm baffled at what will. It's wide, she's wide. She measures about 4-5 fingers down the spine, and so does the tree on this saddle.

It is not, however, a well made saddle and it's used, so it very well could be bothering her.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Well, one thing good is that you out-persisted her, proven by her doing very well on the last go-round!

So many possibilities, multiple possibilities. I can't begin to guess. You must begin the process of elimination to find out what the problem was/is. Good luck!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Chele11 said:


> I would but this wind isn't normal wind. It's a storm and I can't go out there with my 3 yr old daughter in it.


Horses are still animals. I've seen even very well trained horses to go bananas in strong wind despite all desensitizing.  Just keep yourself safe (although riding is not very safe to start with lol!). 

If you gonna buy a different pad I'd suggest to do more research before you spend the money. There are so many options on market right now. Up to the point you can make a saddle to fit better with shims and inserts.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

You said you have been riding her consistently so you don't consider her "fresh". For me, being ridden everyday or not has nothing to do with how fresh a horse is or isn't. I had a gelding that was ridden every single day and he was "fresh" the first 15 minutes of every ride. I lunged him in the round pen with lots of direction changes to get all that energy moving in a positive direction. 

Are you connecting your back cinch to your front cinch? If not, that back cinch is going to slide back and become a bucking strap. I would lose the back cinch all together. Unless you are working cows or doing some serious arena work (rollbacks, sliding stops, etc...) you won't really need the back cinch anyway. It is an easy variable to rule out, too, as you try to figure out what is triggering these bucking episodes.

I would have her vet checked. I don't know how old she is, but she may not be fit enough or strong enough at the moment to balance herself and you at the canter. You have already said you aren't balanced. In my humble opinion, you shouldn't be asking her to lope until YOU can stay balanced. I'd stick to trotting over poles to help her get into shape before asking her to lope. 

Best of luck to you, and I am glad you weren't seriously hurt. :wink:


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Oh I didn't realize it was a storm LOL. Well in that case I would stay inside where it is warm and safe. As far as the saddle goes have you tried the sheet test? This is where you lay a sheet on a dirty horse, put the saddle right over it and get on the horse. Then get off the horse, untack, carefully remove the sheet and examine the dirt imprints. Look for any dark areas that might indicate pressure points. The dirt should be evenly spread across the area of contact. 

It that looks good it probably isn't saddle fit IMO but sometimes horses do buck because it feels different in the different gaits as someone else said. There's an interesting article I found which discusses some of Temple Grandin's theories from her book you might find interesting:

Heart and Desire: Secretariat and Temple Grandin


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## LauraRose (Apr 4, 2011)

A lot of horses have had sore backs and heavier riders and DON'T BUCK! Your horse has an attitude problem. My husband is dealing with a bucker now. His horse bucks when she is spooked. I am not saying that is your horses problem but far too often people mammby pammby with supplements and chiropractors and so on. If you are going to spend money on fixing the problem (and I think you should for safety) spend it on a really well respected trainers evaluation. They can say if it is you. the saddle, the horses back, ect. It is soooo worth it if you want to keep this horse and not get hurt. There's my 2 cents for free...lol


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

It's true that some horses with sore backs don't buck. Just like some humans with sore knees still go running. It is really hard to say why this horse is bucking but one thing for sure is he has decided that it is a bad thing when you're on his back and getting you off is his number one priority. The best thing to do is not to make it a pattern and don't keep setting him/yourself up for failure. If you can find someone to help you that is good then that might help.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Dipping the back under pressure is a sure sign of a sore back. Definitely get it looked at and get a saddle fitter out. 

Having said that - there is no excuse for bucking. They can learn other ways to tell us when something is wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I would say rather than simply not riding with the back cinch (that can keep the saddle on in those nasty bucking fits), then do a bunch of ground work with it on, and tightened properly...it should be fairly snug. Do alot of trot AND canter work...it's the canter that will make a horse buck with the rear cinch, as they round their backs, and the cinch 'tightens' around their belly a bit when the back rounds. 

Then, when you feel she is over that 'bump' in the road, take her into the arena and start doing alot of cruising exercises. From the sounds of your post, she has NO 'cruise control'...ie she's never been taught to take responsibility for the gait she's put into (especially evidenced by you having to "hold" her into a gait). For this horse, I would start at the trot...and do ALOT of trotting; basically drop the reins, and concentrate on moving with her (direction doesn't matter, you are only making her trot, and maintain it). When she is tired, and wanting to break, keep trotting...stop when YOU feel like stopping, not when she feels like stopping. Now when that is accomplished, do the same for the canter...and do alot of cantering. The only way she will become solid at cantering is to actually canter every time you take her out, no more pussy footing, or trying to sneak it in; work her good before you ask her to canter, and then commit to it, and push her hard into it, so hopefully all she can do is kick out a bit, rather than all out buck. Be prepared for her to protest, but don't psych yourself out about it...if it happens, it happens, just push her through it.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

wild_spot said:


> They can learn other ways to tell us when something is wrong.


The problem is often the horse _*tries *_to tell the rider something is not right, and the rider doesn't understand/ignores the signs. Then the buck simply comes as a last resort.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I read the first page and then I'll go back and read the rest. From what you've said here are my thoughts...

Yes, It COULD be the saddle, however I'm not one of those that screams ill-fitting tack first because I've ridden a lot of horses that had ill-fitting tack that rode just fine. 

The bosal. Most definitely yes that could be an issue. I know that the bosal would seem to be a milder option since it has no bit, however a bosal is actually an extremely harsh. 

A true bosal shouldn't be used for long amounts of time because of the severe impact it can have on delicate tissues of the nose and jaws even in the hands of a seasoned trainer who is well educated in its use. It is a training tool and not intended to be used on finished horses. The heel knot on a bosal moves as a lever arm, which amplifies the force on the tissues when the reins are engaged. 

If you really don't want to use a bit, then a better option would be a hackamore.

Without actually having seen the incidents first hand, it's hard to make a judgement call on what happened or why but I do think that your problems were a mixture of things. One being the "disappearance" of Gracie. Chili is looking for his mate and is probably a little distressed right now. Another being the wind and the change in weather, it always makes my horses go a bit loopy. Another being that you were riding in a large open space with no barriers.

My suggestion is to ditch the bosal and then work in small circles and do lots of downward transitions. Don't bother to ask for the canter if you feel those muscles bunched or her back feels tight because she'll (or he'll sorry) buck for sure.

As for with holding grain, to be truthful, it doesn't do you any good since Chili won't think... I was bad so I got no feed.... You know?

I wish you good luck, goign back to read the other several pages.


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

TheLovedOne said:


> Oh I didn't realize it was a storm LOL. Well in that case I would stay inside where it is warm and safe. As far as the saddle goes have you tried the sheet test? This is where you lay a sheet on a dirty horse, put the saddle right over it and get on the horse. Then get off the horse, untack, carefully remove the sheet and examine the dirt imprints. Look for any dark areas that might indicate pressure points. The dirt should be evenly spread across the area of contact.
> 
> It that looks good it probably isn't saddle fit IMO but sometimes horses do buck because it feels different in the different gaits as someone else said. There's an interesting article I found which discusses some of Temple Grandin's theories from her book you might find interesting:
> 
> Heart and Desire: Secretariat and Temple Grandin


Without looking at the above link, tell me - How does an Autistic woman have anything to do with the greatest race horse ever???


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Ok... I read the entire thread and have a couple of my own comments.

I'm still not certain the saddle has anything to do with it but definitely check the fit. There are some good youtube videos out there that show you how to ensure a good fit. Here is one that I found (I did not watch it in it's entirety) 



 If you go to it you'll see quite a few videos posted on saddle fitting.

Another issue is the back. Here is another video (I did not watch in it's entirety) 



 
I do agree that you can lunge a hot horse however, the folks stating that if the horse has a sore back it will buck on the lunge line w/ the saddle. I don't think that should be anything to judge by because a lot of horses are taught that it is ok to buck on the lunge line, at shows you want them to get it done there instead of when you are on their backs. So your horse may be a lunge line bucker. Keep that in mind.

I think you need to just slow down. It sounds to me like you never had the full attention of your horse before you asked for the canter. Chili was racey and not obeying you perfectly when you moved from trot to canter. It's a mistake many folks make. In my opinion, slow is better. Figure 8s, serpentines, directional changes...slow quiet ride. Then canter and even then, when the horse is hot, do it in a small circle... just my 2 cents... or really, since it's my second post... 4 cents?


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Chele11 said:


> Without looking at the above link, tell me - How does an Autistic woman have anything to do with the greatest race horse ever???


I hope that the question is meant to find an answer but I find it condescending. There are many forms and degrees of autism and Dr Grandin has a mild form which enables her to focus and interact as a person without the ailment. There was recently an article on Yahoo about a 12 year old Indiana boy with an IQ above Einstein at 170. He is on the road to becoming, arguably, the greatest astrophysisit we have ever known and he has a mild form of autism.


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

*Update*

The weather here yesterday was awful. We have a big leanto that is separated into large stalls and Chili has full access to her stall at all times in case of implement weather. It's also where she eats and there is a full bucket of fresh water. Yesterday afternoon, she stood under a tree with her head hanging instead of going into her stall. I ran out in shorts and a hoodie and persuaded her away from the tree and to the front of her stall but she spooked at the rain hitting the metal roof and the thunder. Poor girl. She did finally go in and I gave her some hay to keep her occupied/enticed to stay in her stall to keep dry and outta the wind.

(I did not withhold grain the other night, just fyi)

EVERY single time I've been out there, she comes to me without me calling her. Every time. I don't think she hates me. I do think that she is a better horse when another horse is not around. It's like I am the leader and she likes being around me. When another horse is around, she designates them the leader immediately. Sucks but it's the way it seems to be. IDK what to do about that but that's a different story altogether.

It's not raining or windy here today but I'm still sore and exhausted from Sunday, so I'm going to wait to late this afternoon or tomorrow to work her.

^^^^ON ANOTHER NOTE^^^^

IDK why I didn't think to bring this up originally but I suppose I should've.

Saturday, we pulled into our driveway and had no sooner parked that I saw a runaway Amish horse down the road. Full harness trailing after/under him. We tried to stop him and almost succeeded but he circumnavigated us and refused to stop. I was scared sick that he was going to get tangled in all that harness and fall on the road. But he didn't. We followed him 4 miles to his house where it took 4 of us to catch him. I feel sorry for those Amish horses! The Amish man was quite nice but he hooked hat horse right back up and drove him back to where he'd come from to finish work!!! I know putting Chili back to work is the same thing but then again, it's not. That horse was TERRIFIED from running with all the rigging under/around him. But, they do things differently.

Anyway. 

Today, I looked out the window and Chili was running tail high around the lower pasture. I assumed there was an Amish horse on the road and looked to see why this particular horse would have her so excited (they pass by every day!) and was a little surprised. The Halflinger must've been giving the Amish trouble bc the Man was on the ground, trying to get the Halfie back under control. 

So, MUST be something in the air around here!!


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

iridehorses said:


> I hope that the question is meant to find an answer but I find it condescending. There are many forms and degrees of autism and Dr Grandin has a mild form which enables her to focus and interact as a person without the ailment. There was recently an article on Yahoo about a 12 year old Indiana boy with an IQ above Einstein at 170. He is on the road to becoming, arguably, the greatest astrophysisit we have ever known and he has a mild form of autism.


I meant it simply as a question.

My son is on the same spectrum as Autism, which is actually a Pervasive Developmental Disorder along with Rhett's Syndrome, Asperger's, Childhood Disintegrative Disorder and Pdd-NOS (which my son has). 

I know more than the average person about Autism, about its relative disorders and of life with the disorder. I meant no offense. I simply did not understand the correlation. Dr. Grandin is a ..... an exception in the Autistic world. If you read about her, you'll see she had quite a bit of early intervention and her family had money to spare to see that she was able to get function in society. Most people cannot afford these therapies and therefore, their children do not have the same success. It's depressing, so I refuse to read more about her. My son, unfortunately will not have the same life as hers or as the child you already mentioned. EARLY INTERVENTION is key to the success of our children. It's ESSENTIAL for their success. My son wasn't even diagnosed properly until he was 7 and even then, it's been a fight to get the proper therapies.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Chele11 said:


> Without looking at the above link, tell me - How does an Autistic woman have anything to do with the greatest race horse ever???


Without looking at the link... what makes you think Secretariet was the greatest race horse ever????


(sorry... couldn't help myself - that was typed in a teasing fashion).


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

FarmPony - thanks for the videos. I've been doing a lot of research on saddle fitting and think I have that down pat - just worried that it might be too long or even tho I've followed the "rules" of saddle fitting, it's still too close to her shoulders. I feel it and it's sitting right there on her shoulder, unless I move it back and then it's too far onto her hip. I'm looking into a saddle fitter around here but don't think one exits.


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

farmpony84 said:


> Without looking at the link... what makes you think Secretariet was the greatest race horse ever????
> 
> 
> (sorry... couldn't help myself - that was typed in a teasing fashion).


LOL Ever since I can remember, this is what I've heard:

"Secretariat. The greatest racehorse ever..."


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Wow.. I am only at the end of Page 3 and really all I can say is that a Green Horse and a Green Rider is a bad color combinaition! 

If you ride in the pasture, or your daughter (age 3?) rides in a pasture (alone? On lead line??), all other horses should be put away.. a loose horse and a horse being ridden is a dangerous combo. 

The rest... a windy day (storm or just windy), a fresh horse, new equipment, green rider and outside for the first time in awhile is all a wreck waiting to happen. 

IMO someone is going to get hurt with this horse/rider combo. regardless of equipment. A truly good bareback rider will not be bothered by a saddle.. everyone will be in balance regardless of the equipment. 

The rider in this case needs lessons on a quiet, trained horse and the horse she owns, her first horse, needs more training. 

Seriously.. good luck and please do not get hurt.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Just one other thought on this... horses are herd animals. If you have two, they will herd with each other. If you only have one, the human care giver is the herd, so the horse will gravitate to the human. 

A horse running around a pasture on its own like a nut when someone is out on the road doing something unusual is not at all irregular behavior on the part of the horse. Fairly common in fact.

Again, good luck and do be careful.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I have only read the first post and I will admitt to skipping some of that too. The problem as I see it is that there is a novice horse person that is over-horsed and too willing to make excuses for her horse. 

Quit using the bosal. They are for experienced hands only. You may get by as many people do but when things go south you will have very little control. If your horse seems uncomfortable with a bit then leave it on all day for several days in a row and he will become accustomed to it. 

Get proffesional help for you and your horse. It doesn't sound from the original post as though you have much experience with horses. There are two ways to remedy this, you can either fall off many, many, many more times and put your life in danger every time or you can benefit from the experiences of others. If you choose education-by-wreck then you will probably end up with at least one unrideable horse and hospital bills to show for it. If you do your homework and find a good trainer and riding instructor (they don't have to be the same person) and intensely study what they try to teach you then you will end up with a head full of knowledge that will keep you safe and a horse that you can enjoy riding. 

As far as getting rid of a horse because it kicked a kid: My kids get thier butts whipped if they get kicked. I do it to keep them safe and make them remember to treat a horse like it is an animal capable of killing them because it is. My mother-in-law thought I was the meanest SOB to ever walk the face of the earth when I spanked one of my boys for walking up behind a horse untill we saw someone elses kid that had almost died from doing the very same thing and getting kicked.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

kevinshorses said:


> If your horse seems uncomfortable with a bit then leave it on all day for several days in a row and he will become accustomed to it.
> 
> .


I don't understand the rational behind this practice. Sounds like you are asking for trouble even if the horse was stalled all day. I don't put a saddle on a horse all day to get him used to it. I don't tie him up all day to get him used to it. I don't leave him in the trailer all day to get him used to it. I don't have the farrier trim his feet all day to get him used to it. I don't run the clippers on his ears all day to get him used to it. 

I think there are better ways to get a horse accustomed to a bit.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Sahara said:


> I think there are better ways to get a horse accustomed to a bit.


That's the easiest way I know. I have saddled a horse and let them stay saddled for several hours to get them over anxiety. I have done the same with horses that were nervous in the trailer or nervous about being tied. It works and there is little opportunity for error. 

What are some of these better ways?


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

The other day I said something about possibly the saddle being a problem if she never bucked with the other one, but I am going to step in and say after thinking about it, I don't think that is the problem. I live in Wyoming and I can tell you the outfitters around here that pack hundreds of people into the mountains for pack trips, camping trips and hunting trips don't do saddle fitting on every horse, they put a saddle on, adjust girths, breastcollars and stirrup lengths for whatever saddle the rider gets and off they go. Those horse don't buck or do anything stupid, they just follow on the trails with the other horses and get ridden by greenhorn that bangs their feet , grips with their legs, yanks on the reins, leans forward going down hills, leans back going up hills, bounces around in the saddle and the horses, because they are WELL BROKE, just take it in stride.
I think the OP has too much horse to handle, is too much of a novice to train this horse without major help, and needs to get more experience riding a calm older horse before she tries to ride a horse that is green itself.
We own two horses right now, one is 9 and one is 12. Both these horses can go all winter being fed hay, lots of hay in the cold weather, no stalls, but a leanto to get in, no grain and when spring comes around, we climb on them and go off for a ride. No buck, no running, kicking or rearing, just a nice ride.. Why? Because they are well broke experienced horses and have been trained to be that way. 
I have had the oportunity to sell my 9 year old mare numerous times since I have had her, trade her for younger untrained horses and everytime have said no. I don't want to get back into training, I don't want to do anything but be able to take my well behaved horse for rides whenever I want.
The OP needs major help before she gets hurt. Or find a more experienced horse to ride and gain confidence on. I can understand she is feeling a bit scared to get back on the horse, I felt that way with a 3 yr old I had for awhile, and came up with every excuse to not get on him, mainly because I did not want to risk getting dumped... Traded him for this 9 year old mare two years ago and it was the best thing I ever did. I don't regret it for a moment and not afraid to admit that I am too old to get dumped off anymore. 
Get help for both of you. Your horse has now learned it is easy to dump you off and then she doesn't get ridden for a few days. It will just get worse and worse for both of you.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> I have only read the first post and I will admitt to skipping some of that too. The problem as I see it is that there is a novice horse person that is over-horsed and too willing to make excuses for her horse.
> 
> Quit using the bosal. They are for experienced hands only. You may get by as many people do but when things go south you will have very little control. If your horse seems uncomfortable with a bit then leave it on all day for several days in a row and he will become accustomed to it.
> 
> ...


^^^^^^^ This. 

And the old tymers did leave a bridle and bit on a horse for a few days and yes, the horse figure it out. Still rode the horse out in a Bosal (rawhide core). Just a loose ring snaffle as I recall. 

I never needed to leave it on for a few days.. but that was me, my horses, my training.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I agree, the bosal needs to go. 

And... I agree with Kevin, that uses he is a traditional cowboy whos ways may seem archaic to alot of new-wave type riders but I personally will always seek out an old-timers opinions when dealing witih issues.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Some horses put up with ill-footing tack, and others don't. Some people wail at a papercut, and others won't bat an eye at being sutured up without anesthetic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Good job, Kevin. No dancing around the problem.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

JustDressageIt said:


> Some horses put up with ill-footing tack, and others don't. Some people wail at a papercut, and others won't bat an eye at being sutured up without anesthetic.


100% agree.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

JDI I agree with you.

Leaving a bit in for days - that's crazy. Furthermore, the bucking has nothing to do with the bit. You really think that a bit is going to solve this problem. She has no control over the horse's speed with the bosal. This is a bigger problem than a lack of metal in a horse's mouth. There is no relationship with this horse and putting a bit in a horse's mouth for days is not going to further the relationship. 

A bosal is actually for a finished horse - since there seems to be some confusion - it is not for starting a horse. A bosal has no lateral flexion so how could it be for starting a horse anyway. Regardless, the bit is not going to resolve the bucking issues.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

TLO, the bosal is doing no good, and the rider should have a bit in (snaffle) for safety sake. As already stated, the bosal is for experienced hands. While I don't agree with leaving a bit in for a few days to get a horse used to it, I agree the horse needs a bit (again, snaffle due to the rider and the need for independent action) and I'm absolutely fine with leaving a bit on for periods of time with the horse supervised. I'm willing to bet the horse carries a bit fine though, I don't think the OP has an unbroke horse, just one that needs to be checked over, and if given the all clear, dealt with by someone who won't let the behavior continue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

JDI we seem to be following each other LOL. I don't start or ride horse's with bits anymore. It's not necessary and I believe that the steel doesn't give you anymore control. If a horse wants to bolt, buck etc it will with or without the metal. I have seen plenty of people using bits that have no control. I have seen very few if any people riding without bits that have no control. Interesting isn't it.

Nevertheless I agree that the problem is bigger and I also know that you mentioned the bosal is for experienced hands but I know someone else said something to the contrary and I thought I would mention it.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

That is due to training, not a lack of metal. You have your methods which do not include a bit - but it is conventional to use one, and useful on a bucker. You do stand a better chance of regaining control with a problem horse with a bit than without - now, are you speaking of bitless options, such as the Dr Cook? Those give control due to the construction. Hard to ignore that seemingly innocent crossunder mechanism.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I don't know what a Dr Cook is - it sounds scary. No I just use a rope halter but I know how to ride and I get my horses really good on the ground. So far, I haven't had the need to resort to a bit and I'm not really sure if I agree that it gives more control. When I was a teenager I used to ride for a horse trader and one of their friends was nearly killed by a bolter that ran through the bit even though the bit had cut right through the horse's mouth. If that is not compelling then I don't know what is. I am not trying to crucify people who use bits. I find things easier without them. In fact, I have a draft that came to me as a bolter and I briefly considered putting a bit in her mouth but I didn't. It took sometime to change her behavior but now she is so light in the rope halter and I never had to use a bit to do it.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

whether or not she rides in a bosal or a bit isn't going to determine if her horse bucks or not.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

"Resort to a bit" - that I find slightly offensive. I use a bit to communicate to my horse, not to control through pain. You get a finer connection with a bit -think spotty cell pione service (halter) to hard-wired landline. My horses accept the but and work on it - they do not defer to the bit because it causes them pain otherwise. 
Some horses will ignore a bit no matter what - flight instinct kicks in. But for a human's safety, I advise a bit in a problem horse - in a pinch, you can swing their heads around and disengage the hindquarters. Harder to do that in a halter.
Of course, my real advice would be exactly as I stated earlier, check for pain and get professional help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## onetoomany (Dec 10, 2008)

TheLovedOne said:


> When I was a teenager I used to ride for a horse trader and one of their friends was nearly killed by a bolter that ran through the bit even though the bit had cut right through the horse's mouth.


And somehow I think the situation would have been similar had the horse not had a bit in it's mouth. Doesn't seem like a sound argument to go bitless to me.

To the OP- I must echo what several other posters have said. Get your horse checked over for pain, and get some professional help. Better to find someone that will help you than to injure yourself and teach your horse some pretty negative things in the process.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

onetoomany said:


> And somehow I think the situation would have been similar had the horse not had a bit in it's mouth. Doesn't seem like a sound argument to go bitless to me.


Agreed. The situation might have been even worse - he may have actually been killed - without the bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> JDI I agree with you.
> 
> Leaving a bit in for days - that's crazy. Furthermore, the bucking has nothing to do with the bit. You really think that a bit is going to solve this problem. She has no control over the horse's speed with the bosal. This is a bigger problem than a lack of metal in a horse's mouth. There is no relationship with this horse and putting a bit in a horse's mouth for days is not going to further the relationship.
> 
> A bosal is actually for a finished horse - since there seems to be some confusion - it is not for starting a horse. A bosal has no lateral flexion so how could it be for starting a horse anyway. Regardless, the bit is not going to resolve the bucking issues.


No, but a snaffle could give the rider the lateral flexion she needs to be able to get the horse to yield his hip and stop pig rooting and bucking. If the horse likes to mouth the bit, I agree, it needs to spend some time in a safe place with the bit and bridle on; maybe not for literal days, but for a good session each day...most colts quit mouthing after a few days of 1/2 -1 hour sessions. I don't start asking for any flexion until he is used to the bit, so he just wears it for those first few days. 

And No the bit is not the 'end all' to this horse's problem, BUT it could help resolve some of the lack of control; but, that said, the owner needs to return to the ground, and teach this horse to flex first, before getting back on. 

A bosal is not for a finished horse either, it's for the inbetween stages; before he is put into the traditional curb bit. I use a rope halter to start most of the horses I train, so 'similar' in a sense, and have no issues with lateral control, however, I also spend alot of time on the ground doing 'carrot stretches' if you will, so the horse knows when I take up one rein, he is to bend to that side and give. It's all about the preparation you are giving the horse, not so much about what method, or equipment you choose to use. IMHO, anyway. 

I strongly believe the OP needs to send this horse to a good trainer, though, and take some lessons herself, on a good sane horse in the mean time to help regain her own confidence.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

there's no such thing as a sound argument to go bit or bitless because objectively a snaffle is the same as a halter, in effect. there are of course the subjective differences of action and what the horse feels and what the horse is trained too and rider preference and what the rider has to do with his/her hands.

but the fact that i and everyone else i know can get full lateral flexion equally in both a snaffle and a halter (of course if you try this with one and you've only ever used the other, it will 'seem' more difficult which will form your opinion, but that's subject to how soft your horse is to 1 vs the other, which has nothing to do with the equipment and has everything to do with your horses experience with the equipment, which is biased to how effectively/ineffectively the equipment has been used) clearly tells me that theres no objective difference between the 2, so if your horse is going to buck it's going to do so in both a halter and a snaffle, equally.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Point blank, if you need lateral flexion in an uncontrolled situation, you're going to get it better with a bit. A halter is much easier to ignore, in the sense when the situation is not terribly controlled. 
Should it be that way? Nope, but if it's needed, a bit is going to be more effective. Not the best choice, control due to using the bit as a control mechanism rather than a communication tool, but again when it comes to a human's safety, I'd rather the rider have the upper hand. Then off to a professional for retraining.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

that's subject to which your horse responds better too.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

JDI I did not mean it as a dis. If you ride with a bit that's your business. However I totally disagree that LF is harder in a halter. I find it easier because sometimes the bit can make the horse overly sensitive and with the halter there is a little more forgiveness. So if I have to be quick and am consequently a little rough then it doesn't matter. I have found with a bit that can make it or break it.

Totally agree with you Christopher.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I am no expert regarding the bosal. In fact, in my younger years we used them on pretty green horses. However, from what I understand it is a Vaquero tradition to use them once the horse has got a very good foundation and many people do not add anything beyond that. I guess some people will. It is not for starting horses and that was actually my point.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

christopher said:


> that's subject to which your horse responds better too.


Well in this case the horse is not responding to the bosal, so there needs to be some retraining going on, regardless of which the OP decides to utilize (bitless or bit)... ;-)


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Yes mom2pride. That is definitely the case. The bit is not going to save you, the relationship will.


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## Islandmudpony (Feb 7, 2011)

Hmm... funny how this moved from being about bucking to the bit vs. not-bit debate. Bit or no bit, this horse need to recongnize her rider as being the boss. Personally, I'd prefer a bit, because the contact you have with a horse's mouth becomes a bit of an empathy link. The real issue though: The first day, she bucked just once and got away with it - the next time she tossed her rider three times. It sounds like the horse tried bucking and instantly realized it put her in control, and that if she did it, she wouldn't have to canter. 
I would definitely agree with the other posters to rule out back pain and saddle fit problems, but this is a training problem as well. As for that, I would recommend having an experienced rider or trainer get on a couple of times, then to have them lunge you, and finally to supervise you riding her on your own. Don't canter out in the open until you have it under control in an arena.


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## Raven Lunatic (Apr 5, 2011)

I think it may be the saddle is there any bridging? You may want to try the white sheet test if you haven't already. My horse had the same deal, every time I loped her she'd either have trouble breaking into stride or she'd buck and keeping her going was hard. A horse therapist looked her over and told me the problem was bridging and pressure on her withers, thus inhibiting the use of her full shoulder, shortening her stride. Hope that helps =)


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Folks, we are all guessing and throwing out ideas that have worked for us. We haven't seen a video or the OP riding or even pictures of her horse under saddle so we have no clue.

She needs to see a trainer and someone who can teach her and her horse. She also needs to find someone competent to look over the fit of her tack. For all we know the tack fits perfectly or that it could be terribly wrong because she is relatively new and isn't interpreting directions correctly.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Ditto, iride. All we can is to suggest based on what WE think, not what the REAL situation is. Checking tack all over never hurt as well as getting some lessons/training sessions with the horse.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Yes. Please get some training for you, for your horse and a pro in. Horses can kill people. They can kill us just playing. They can kill us just being horses. We are more vulnerable the less we know and the less the horse knows. 

I think I read in the HF rules that being dead means you can't post here anymore......

Please do the safe thing here.. get some professional help and follow up because we all want to read a success story!!!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I feel like I'm posting on deaf ears but I wanted to do a quick summary of *ideas *that have been thrown out here.

Check for back pain
Check the saddle fit
Go back to the basics of ground work
Chuck the bosal
Get the horse used to a bit
Get out of the open and into a confined space
Longe your horse when necessary
Call a trainer
Be safe

Please add if I missed anything and I want to add something about the bosal.

I saw several places where folks have mentioned the bosal will not cause a horse to buck. *NOT TRUE *As stated in several places a bosal is actually a very harsh piece of equipment, much more so then a snaffle bit. It's PAINFUL, in fact many times when you see a western pleasure horse with a grey strip across it's nose, it is not necessarily a sign of age or a horse that wears a halter all the time, it's often scarring from a bosal.

The bosal is painful when you pull on it, it's not supposed to have the constant preasure and when a horse is in pain, they can get mad. When the get mad... they can buck....


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Why would you feel it necessary to say you're posting to deaf ears. That's pretty insulting. 

I do not recall anyone saying a bosal will not cause a horse to buck. Nobody knows why this horse is bucking that has already been said. 

I think you are confusing a bosal with a rope halter/hackamore as far as what has been written in this post. A bosal is for a horse that is already trained not for one that is bucking. As far as abuse goes you don't need to use a bosal to abuse a horse it can be done with pretty much anything including hands.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Ok - maybe deaf ears wasn't the right term to use, however the conversation has turned from attempts to help the OP find a way to deal with her situation to arguments regarding bits and bitless. My post is intended to get this thread back on the right track.

Somwhere within these pages are several mentions of the bosal not causing the horse to buck - I'll try to search through them at some point. My point is just that - yeah, a bosal can cause a buck... along with a million other things including a cranky horse...


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

farmpony84 said:


> I feel like I'm posting on deaf ears but I wanted to do a quick summary of *ideas *that have been thrown out here.
> 
> Check for back pain
> Check the saddle fit
> ...


Just want to add:
Get a riding instructor in and have some riding lessons


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

TLO, it has been said in this thread that a bosal won't cause bucking - which isn't true. A bosal is a piece of equipment that can really hurt a horse; FP is saying that you can see the effects of a rough-handed rider or an ill fitting bosal on horses' noses, since they can do damage. Once again, true. FP is not confusing anything here. She is saying the marks on the horses' noses is from a bosal, not a halter like some think. Of course anything can be used to abuse a horse.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

farmpony84 said:


> My point is just that - yeah, a bosal can cause a buck... along with a million other things including a cranky horse...


Including a playful horse 

Yes the conversation did take a slight bend in the road but that doesn't mean it is not interesting or educational. Everyone has been very civil in these discussions; however, I do understand your point.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

JDI and FP I do not see anything that says a bosal will not cause bucking. I think it was me that said metal in the mouth will not solve the problem. The problem is bigger than that i.e. it is a relationship problem. Of course, using a bosal or a bit harshly can cause all sorts of reactions. But anyway I will not start repeating myself because I think I have been clear enough.


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