# Tubby TB



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

I'm planning on going to look at this 8 year old OTTB as a potential purchase. He is 15.2 hands and had seven starts. He's been off the track since 2010.

These are the only pics I have at the moment:


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

subbing - will come back!!!


----------



## boldnheart (Dec 14, 2013)

For some reason I don't like his hip. Maybe it's the way he's standing.... In all the pictures. His withers seem a bit high and kind of steep. He's got nice feet though! What do you plan on using him for?


----------



## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

I'm not very good at conformation, but as far as TB's go he's a brick house. Feet look very good for a TB. His shoulder is a bit steep. His back is nice and short. His neck looks long and under/wrongly muscled. As far as legs I stink at that part and he's not standing square in any of them so I'll leave that to someone else. Judging by the first picture, his tail set looks a little low, and possibly his croup a little steep. But in other pictures his hip looks nice and round.


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

I'm planning on doing mostly fun riding: arena work, trail, dressage.

I'm going to see him Friday, so will get better pics and video then. Thanks for the responses!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I agree with Sully; he's solid looking. take off some weight, add some muscle, and he'll be a nice looking horse.


----------



## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Well, here is what I get. First of all, I would have a chiro check this horse's back and a vet check his stifles. In every photo he stands with at least one hind foot well back and both hind feet camped out.. and front legs and feet camped under. That says to me he is doing something to take pressure off his sacro-iliac area of the back bOR off a stifle that is not right. 

In the photo attached, notice first the arrow at his neck. Right now he is fat.. so every thing is smooth. I expect when he loses weight he may develop a dip in front of his withers. His top line looks good but there is a dip behind his withers that will get worse with weight coming off. If he retains the smooth coupling to his hind quarters that will be very nice. His tail set is correct and he has good bone. 

His shoulder appears adequate tho the humerus angle from point of elbow to point of shoulder appears low. This is likely due to the fact that he is standing with his front legs under himself. His hind legs being stretched out make him appear nearly level.. but even with that he is still down hill in build. His stifle is too far back and his hind leg is over straight thru the hocks as a result. He is actually quite post legged behind.. but again, due to the stance with one hind leg so far back and both hinds back it is hard to tell this. 

It also appears to me that his hind toes point in which would indicate he may be bow legged behind. His near hind is rotated with the toe pointing in. Watch him walk.. and make sure as he walks over the hind foot that the foot does not rotate on the ground noticeably. If it does, have a vet check his medial collateral ligaments of the stifle on that side as such rotation can indicate they are torn. The way he is standing has me concerned as well (such tears can occur from being cast in a stall or trailer or falling on slippery ground when the horse is out just playing hard). I have experience with this.


----------



## nitapitalou (Jan 20, 2014)

I wonder if he wasn't set up to stand as he is to help hide a few flaws. 

With the sharpness of the angle on his shoulder and how posty his hind legs are, I would not like to try to sit his trot. I have a feeling he is rough. 

Though if you are not planning on showing, sometimes a great personality goes a long way to make up for what is lacking in confirmation. : )


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

This is a reputable rescue and he's being fostered by a vet... so I don't think they're purposefully hiding things. I will definitely get better pics and get a PPE, paying closer attention to the things mentioned here, if I do buy him.

Thanks!


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

:rofl: A tubby TB eh? I should snap him up quick, everyone knows that TB's are naturally hard keepers and you simply can't keep weight on them! Soorry pet peeve.

As to the, yeah well, pics are what they are, and they are frozen moments in time, but you do wonder why he isn't square in any of them. Certainly worth going to look and ride him, see how he goes, a horse with a sound mind, who is comfortable to ride is always worth something. After that you have to dig deeper, and with this guy I would dig some more, but some conformational issues would not worry me for a pleasure horse, rather than a serious competition horse.

Certainly have a PPE if you think he is the right one having ridden him, you don't want to be buying trouble, BUT for me, it is easier sometimes to keep a less than perfect horse sound...shoeing, supplements, turn out, less turn out, etc, than it is to keep a perfectly conformed 100% sound horse sane, if it is an idiot.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If anything the way he's been set up is maybe 'showing' faults that aren't there so I think he's one of those horses that you really have to see in the flesh and try for yourself
Its really hard to get a horse with perfect conformation - and sometimes you have to accept a few minor flaws that don't compromise their soundness if the horse is otherwise what you want
We had an OTTB that used to stand with his legs crossed and at all sorts of angles but he jumped successfully for years and was never unsound
If I was to add anything to Elana's post it would be that his back looks slightly roached in the pic she's used to demonstrate her points - but that could just be an optical illusion thing


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^Oh good, it wasn't just me seeing the roach.

I like him. I also don't like him. lol Would want more info/pics and a trail period.

Must say that's the roundest TB I've ever seen. The front ends looks fine the back ends like "wha..?" lol I don't think it's just weight either he just looks "round" to me.


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

I also have video, but do not want to post because I've had issues in the past with posting links and having people buy the horse out from under me. PM if you would like the link and don't want to buy him, lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Would love opinions on this one as well. Located in the same general area so I'll be looking at both on Friday.  http://www.horseforum.com/horse-conformation-critique/another-ottb-361153/#post4725849


----------



## boldnheart (Dec 14, 2013)

What I would be concerned is to why he's taken all those years off. Maybe an injury? Just be cautious. People will doing anything to sell a horse for more even if it's injured.


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Updated pics:


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

It is interesting/worrying that he has that same stance in nearly every pic that you have posted, I wonder if he can stand square?

He looks like he is well overdue for the farrier.

Again, the proof of this one, and others, for you is in the riding, DO NOT buy anything that you have the faintest niggle about, no rehabs, no projects, unless they are 100% safe and a comfortable ride and just in need of some polishing.


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Like the new pics, second one's good. I don't see anything that says "don't buy him!" looks ok overall. Don't like his front legs, but a good farrier visit would probably change that overall look. My exception to the previous comment is that the roach is still there. Regardless of issues with the roach back itself it will make it difficult to fit a saddle combined with his back being short (is it just me where it looks short in the new pics?) and his nice long bony withers and I'm going to guess it's a p.i.t.a. to fit a saddle to this guy. As said, still concerns about the way he stands, which is maybe related to the other stuff I just said.

So, solid decent confo looks sweet. (He looks slimmer in these but still round lol)
Confo issues-roach back! (side issue saddle fit, and potential problems with the roach).
Needs better trimmer, look at front legs closely in person to try and determine if the feet are affecting them.
Standing oddly, an issue somewhere?

I think he's worth looking at if you are willing to do a THOROUGH vet exam (vet should be able to cover all the mentioned concerns besides doing the basic physical/xrays/whatever and I personally trust my vet where I can say "will this horse work for ME?") before proceeding further and being ready to say no and not jump in over your head.

As far as your use for him. I think he'd be a good pleasure mount (provided he passes the vet exam..) but as far as dressage I can't picture him doing well. No knowledge on this but I would imagine having a horse with a noticeable roach would be able to perform comfortably. He just doesn't look like he would be good for dressage though I can't really explain why. If you just want to bum around go for it, but anything beyond that, even (in my non educated opinion!) any lower level stuff/showing I would pass. Depends on how focused you are in that area.

So go see him, talk to your vet, ask if the horse would be suitable for the work you want to do. The vet may think he can't/won't be comfortable and you will have to make a decision on how much you want to do dressage or something or he may even say "this horse has issues I would suggest you not look any further" or quite possibly "I think this horse is perfect for what you have in mind".

Who knows. Keep us updated!

Just an aside, one of my horses (the one I actually bought and actually did a PPE on) has some issues. Vet discovered an old DDFT (tendon) injury and a mild heart murmur (maybe something else too don't remember). Vet said wrap his legs when you work him and he'll be perfect for you. Is he going to be going to Rolex next year? No (laughing as I picture this horse doing Rolex but OT) but as a light pleasure mount he is fine. We don't do anything to stress his leg. His heart murmur is irrelevant, he's not galloping around for hours, he is (health wise) suitable for everything but the very most strenuous work, which we do not do anyways (For the record, I have a heart murmur myself, they didn't bother noting it until I was 15 or so and then did a lot of testing and determined it was absolutely nothing. My aunt had the same thing, so it doesn't mean much.)

So something like "heart murmur" can mean pretty much nothing or of course can be something serious, but as a buyer how big an issue something is, is extremely relevant to your goals. If I was looking for my Rolex mount, healthwise, I wouldn't even consider this horse for a second. For a pleasure mount his "issues" are barely note worthy.


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

I rode this horse and basically forgot everything I know. Jerked on his mouth, bumped his sides, was as tense as humanely possible, yet he kept trucking along, trying to figure out just what on earth I wanted.

The ride was seriously rushed, as I was late and she had an appointment I wasn't aware of. The pics were taken as she was holding onto the tack and the horse, obviously needing to get going so as to not be late for her appointment.

To answer the questions:
His feet are in dire need of a farrier.
His back is short and slightly roached.
He's basically track broke but shows a lot of promise. 

So, I think he deserves a second look. Then if that goes well, maybe a PPE.

My trainer likes him, and that means a lot. So... I guess we'll see.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

You were looking for a project right?

He might be the one.

Sounds like a good plan.

Just keep those things in mind.


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

As far as whether I'm looking for a project, the short answer would be yes.

The reason for the answer is, IMO, EVERY horse is a project. Because even if someone's poured their blood, sweat and tears into training a horse, I'm going to have to work with that horse myself in order to form a partnership. I figure, it might as well be a relatively "blank slate." I technically was looking for something a bit more than green, but as long as I feel relatively safe, I think it's okay to go with straight green. The fact that I am looking forward to riding this horse again says a lot. 

I'm also sending these new pics to my saddler to see what he things about saddle fit.  He'll give me an honest answer, even if he does see dollar signs.


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Please update!


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Going to get a PPE.... so I guess you can say it went well!


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

That is not a satisfactorary report!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

LOL! Sorry for being a tease!!!!

It was a bit of a roller coaster day. Striker is SUPER cute and lovey. I brought along two girls from my barn, one of whom is going to be a working student at a big barn in Chicago beginning in May. She was riding Obie for me before he was injured. I guess you could call her an "apprentice trainer."

I completely botched my trainer's instructions. She told me to have the rescue person ride Striker first. Instead, Helen (apprentice trainer) rode first. 

He seemed a bit stiff at the walk but it was COLD (below zero). He was a bit antsy when asked to stop and stand but it wasn't anything major. Just "Thoroughbreddy" but not in a scary way. He seemed to get pretty comfortable to me at the trot but Helen did not canter him. Then, the rescue person suggested not trotting very long because of how cold it was and how Striker is out of shape. 

Helen came over and said she was not comfortable cantering him because she thought he was lame in the left rear leg. Said she'd noticed it first at the canter on the lunge line, because he was reluctant to canter. IMO, he was just on too short of a line. He would start to canter and then the line would pull his head around and he'd break. 

Anyway, when Helen was done riding him, I got on. I felt MUCH more comfortable this time around. I walked around a bit, changing direction a few times, and then trotted. Again, MUCH more comfortable this time around. 

When I trotted to the left, he was much faster and did not feel as comfortable. But then I remembered to slow my post down and he settled in. 

It was a bit of a strange visit because we sort of felt abandoned. The rescue people did not interact with us much and did not do much to "sell" the horse. In a way, I felt like I was intruding. It was just an odd feeling. 

I told the rescue person that we were concerned about his movement being a bit off. She said that she'd never noticed anything (keep in mind that she's a vet). I told her that I'm a bit gun shy after my issues with Obie and she said she understood. I told her I would like to get a pre purchase exam (PPE) done before buying him. I told her I'd be in touch after I had a chance to talk to my trainer.

I left feeling sad because I did not think I was going to buy him. 

When we got back to Duluth, we talked to Deb (the trainer) and she said that she figured he was out of the running because of the lameness and the attitude of the rescue. 

After the girls left, we got to talking more and I said I didn't really notice that he was stepping wrong, outside of some stiffness. She asked to watch the videos.

After we watched them, she said, "I still really like him. I see nothing wrong with him."

She thinks the strange movement people were seeing might be due to the fact that he has one white sock. It looks like that leg moves strangely because it is so much more noticeable. She was frustrated that Helen did not canter him, but we have canter videos from December and she didn't see anything off with them. 

After discussing it with her, I decided that I will have a neutral vet do a PPE. If he passes, I will buy him. My trainer might go down with me next weekend if we feel we need another look, but right now I'm feeling pretty confident that he's the right horse for me.

Here are the videos. I'm the one in #6. For some reason, the girls forgot to video when I was riding until my ride was almost over and I reminded them. We went better to the right. He started out fast to the left, but then I finally remembered to slow my post down and he settled in. 

nikelodeon79 - YouTube


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Well that's more like it!

Two questions:

1) How did he make you _feel_ while you were riding? Did you feel like a million dollars and that you and him could go on and do anything that you want?

2) Are you the sort of person that can move on from, and forget any niggles about soundness that are there?

These to me are the two most important things that you have to dig deep in yourself and answer with 100% total honesty, because of the issues that you have had with Obie. It worries me that you have not had a chance to canter this guy yet, to me that can make or break a deal, not all canters are equal! 

I'm not sure that this is the horse for you from the reports that you have given, but it doesn't matter so much what I think, as what you and the people who have actually met him think.


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> 1) How did he make you _feel_ while you were riding? Did you feel like a million dollars and that you and him could go on and do anything that you want?


Yes absolutely! I really, really like him. I felt safe and comfortable, yet I felt like he had enough spunk to keep me challenged and to do the things I wnat to do. 



> 2) Are you the sort of person that can move on from, and forget any niggles about soundness that are there?


Yes and no. A few things here and there are fine, but I do not want to end up with a completely unsound horse. 



> It worries me that you have not had a chance to canter this guy yet, to me that can make or break a deal, not all canters are equal!


My trainer liked the look of his canter on the videos, and we may go down next weekend. She will go with me and canter him. 

I am not solid on the canter yet. To be honest, I'm still not 100% secure on the school horses with cantering. I didn't expect to be able to canter him yet, and that's a part of the "project" part of him. My trainer will work on getting his canter solid, and also on getting MY canter solid in lessons. 

Thanks for the input!


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

What happened with the bay horse?
I still think this chestnut has a few issues that would put me off him - the slight roach back, the fact that he's so green you'd be relying a lot on a trainer to work on him - which would put you back to where you were with Obie and something about his back end that looks stiff to me - maybe the angle of his pasterns to the ground is too low & that looks like a risk of suspensory ligament trouble in the future or even starting now
You rode him much better though this time and looked a lot more relaxed


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

The bay is at a trader with a shady reputation... I didn't feel comfortable with the situation so I decided to pass.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

We'll hope he wasn't loaded up with bute. If you buy him, make it conditional that you can return him within 3 days if he becomes unsound. If buted it will be worn off by then. Do ask the vet if the horse has been buted. This can account for a nice quiet horse. What I like to do is run my hands over the horse's back and when I get to the tail I lift it. Usually a horse will clamp it tight. A drugged horse will let you move it away from it's body.


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Saddlebag said:


> We'll hope he wasn't loaded up with bute. If you buy him, make it conditional that you can return him within 3 days if he becomes unsound. If buted it will be worn off by then. Do ask the vet if the horse has been buted. This can account for a nice quiet horse. What I like to do is run my hands over the horse's back and when I get to the tail I lift it. Usually a horse will clamp it tight. A drugged horse will let you move it away from it's body.


Did you miss the part about this being a reputable rescue where a licensed vet (with a good reputation) is one of the people in charge? 

He was not buted.


----------



## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

He looks like he would be a nice horse with some work. he did not do any head bobbing that
would indicate he was lame. .


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Headbobbing is not a tell all. I do think he looks "off" he's not flat out limping and he's tense and choppy so it's hard to tell. A PPE exam should pick up on that, mention your concerns to the vet (maybe send that video to the vet?). It could be some arthritis or something.

Don't see any reason not to go ride him again if you like him.


----------



## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

I don't see head bobbing or tail swishing, but he certainly is not tracking up in the hind end either and looks stiff to me as others have mentioned. Hopefully your natural vet has experience with soundness exams. It could be as simple as needing a chiropractic adjustment, or it could be more. Good luck!


----------



## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey (Jan 15, 2014)

let me just say he is a cutie!!! you should follow your heart. what you think is most important. let us know how the PPE goes! how old is he again? just curious


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

He is 8. Thanks!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Shame about the bay but not worth getting involved with dealers who had a bad reputation
The only way forward now is to get that PPE done and maybe ask if they would consider a trial period to see how he is when he's settled in and in regular work with you
The slight stiffness in the back end might just be a combination of tension because he's green, not getting worked consistently and having a strange rider he doesn't know trust won't help that and possibly needing a better fitted saddle.


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

No trial, but with a $400 adoption fee, possibly worth the risk. He could go back to the rescue if things don't work out but I would lose the fee. Not too worried about that, though. I would just consider it a donation. 

Thanks again for all your help/input.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If he passes the PPE I think that would be a risk worth taking if he didn't work out for you


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

He passed the PPE with flying colors. The place I used does quite a few PPEs and is very thorough. The only red flags that showed up are:

-very much in need of a hoof trim
-narrow heels, so the vet recommended keeping him barefoot and using a good farrier
-a bit on the chubby side
-ear plaques
-thrush in the front feet
-a bit mouth shy

Otherwise he flexed sound, looked great on the lunge line, was sound moving on concrete, etc. 

Oh and they did draw blood in case I want it sent in for drug testing.


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

So he needs better hoof care but nothing major (easy) a diet (we all know that, and easy) and the ear plaques are not at all a big deal and the mouth shy is a minor thing that can be easily worked on and not relevant to health.

Sounds great!

So, are you going to take him on trial?


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Yes, I am! Already added him to "My Horses." Can you tell I'm excited?

My trainer/BO is going to be going on vacation soon, though, so we won't be getting him until the end of March. Not sure how I'm going to wait that long!


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Oh hehe awesome!! Is that him in your avatar? So exciting! I think he will work well for you.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Congrats


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Yogiwick said:


> Oh hehe awesome!! Is that him in your avatar? So exciting! I think he will work well for you.


Yep, that's him. 

Here he is taking a nap, at the University of Minnesota vet clinic. BEFORE he got his teeth floated. :lol:


----------



## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey (Jan 15, 2014)

SO Adorable! so excited for you!!! please keep us updated with lots of pictures


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

That is great news - and looks like there is a genuine explanation for why he seems a little awkward in his action - just needs some good hoof care.
Looking forward to the updates on your new thread now


----------



## morganarab94 (May 16, 2013)

I'm late to the party, but congrats!


----------

