# Anger and the matter of the carrot or the stick



## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

barry g; that is a totally excellent post, and i agree with it wholeheartedly. in point of fact; as people will know from this forum, i advocate a kinder way, but there are 2 instances that come to mind that i think are relevant here; both involve handling on the ground; one is with a horse i had who was hardly broken. it sometimes took over an hour just to mount her! she would blow up, run forward ( lunge into canter, not just walk off) step sidewards, rear, you name it, she did it. i spent monthes working on tapping and stroking her all round, swinging the stirrups, etc. basically rebreaking her to saddle, and we went from 2 people holding her while i mounted, to me doing it alone. however, one day she was having none of it and she went through every trick in her book, to stop me mounting, and i really had reached the point where i could cheerfully have laid into her with a whip! i was overheated and so was she!!! did i grab that whip??? NO!!! ( and yes i did ride with one, as an aide, not a punishment) no, i did not, i walked away from her, and took ten minutes to gather my thoughts, and calm down. i then went into her, calm and determined that i was mounting and she would let me, and low and behold, she too was calm, no longer the snorting monster of a few minutes before, she knew she had took me tomy limits!! she stood rock still, i mounted, and we went for a lovely ride.. this to me is a good example of how a horse can pick up on our mood, and why it is so important to back off, and approach things from a calm and kind approach. ..when i worked for the n.h. i often rode horse that were calm for me, and jiggy and excitable for others- they pick up on our moods, therefore we are responsible for how the mood escalates... the other story this has reminded me of, is the mare i have now; in the summer after we have been out, i always wash her off in any sweaty areas, its part of her routine. so one day we came back from a quick trip around the village, and she wasnt sweaty at all, so she just had a brush over. when leading her into her box she planted her feet firmly, and refused to budge. the girl with me was instant raised eyebrows, and show her who's boss, while i just wondered aloud why she didnt want to go in. the reason was obvious to me, it was the only thing that was different; she expected her wash, and was letting me know that i had "forgotten" something. so stating my theory out loud, the girl with me sniggered and looked incredulous. i simply turned my mare around, tied her back up, gave her a quick wash, she looked smug and happy- things were as they should be!- the human got the message, and i then walked her into her box no problems whatsoever, and me, i got the satisfaction of being right to my friend! this is just a light hearted example of why i always look to the horse, to tell me whats wrong, from their point of view. it does not mean they walk all over me; they respect me, i never get my foot stepped on, barged etc. just a word will suffice- they are far more intelligent than most humans give credit for. and i for one want my relationship with horses to be one of partnership, in equal parts- one in which we respect each other, exactly as you say in your post.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I smack mine on shoulder with my hand with the firm "stop it" when it gets to the dangerous point (like she's trying to walk thru me to chase my other mare away from the food). Doesn't hurt them, but they do understand they did something wrong. Personally I don't see anything wrong with it. It's not an offense or abuse, but a reminder. My horses live much better life then me, so I'd expect them at least to respect me. :lol:


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Another excellent post, Barry!

I'm all for being as gentle as possible and for my horse being my partner. I don't ride with a whip, Scout doesn't need it as an aid, and if he needed it as a discipline tool under saddle I wouldn't be up there anyway. I use an NH cue stick for formal groundwork as an extension of my arm. If any horse I work with is being an idiot, I will not heitate to allow him to hit the stick (or my hand) if he invades my space. I love my boy, and he surely isn't afraid of me (I routinely sit in his stall and "visit" with him while he's laying on the stall floor, napping), but he outweighs me nearly ten times over. There is a line I draw with him that he is not permitted to cross. I remind him of it through body language, but if he continues to push he'll get a "bite." Our partnership is 51% me, 49% him. I'm the brains, he's the brawn. Some things are not up for discussion.

All horses are different, and react differently to different stimuli. Would I take a weanling wearing a halter for the first time and bash him for crowding me? No, I would nudge him back over, make it harder for him to invade. Now, my fella knows better than to crowd under any circumstances, so if he does for any reason aside from fear, he gets a "telling off." Same goes for confirmed abuse cases. If they don't know what the right answer is, it's carrot time. Teach the right answer. If the horse is trying to up his position on the totem pole, or ignoring my "nice" face and effectively telling me to buzz off, I see no problem with getting his attention with a single spank, with hand or with stick. A boss mare won't clobber a colt for barging, but the same mare will let the 12 year old gelding have it from both barrels for the same offense.

Excellent topic! I look forward to reading more replies!


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## G and K's Mom (Jan 11, 2008)

My thoughts are along the lines of Scoutrider. 

Just last night everyone was getting a good grooming before dinner. My older one didn't think I was moving fast enough and was getting antsy. At one point he swung his head in my direction, not far enough to actually bite me but his intention was clear, he got a good smack on the neck and told "enough". He pouted for awhile, life sucks when your a horse....LOL

There are "no vote" items when it comes to horse's, crowding, biting and kicking to name a few. Your darn tooting they'll get a "bite" for any of those things. It doesn't come in the form of a beating, but I see no problem with a smack, be-it with your hand or horseman's stick. 



> I spend a lot of time getting my intelligent and sensitive mare to trust me. Nowadays one slapping by me, for any misdemeanour by her, would put me back months in her ongoing training.


I highly doubt it........


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

I go along generally with G and K and Scoutrider. There are certain things that get a smack, but most horses will stop with a firm no. My no is no actually a word, it is more a loud sound similar to if you said the word "ant" very forcefully. All my horses understand it. In most cases saying the word easy forcefully is enough to remind them of what they should do. 

I will say that my step-father rides a stallion, when he does things like squeal and stomp at mares he gets a quick slap on the neck. He pouts, but it gets the point across and keeps everyone safe.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Barry,
It is no wonder to me that people get caught off guard by their horses from time to time.
Horses are Much faster at things than us and react to whatever that thing is that they are reacting to.

When you are laying on the ground looking up you start to feel foolish that you were bested by this beast and it is only natural for a human to get angry and want to get back at the thing that made you look so bad.

I was one of those people for many years.

The thing is, as time went on I started to see that horses ALWAYS give a "TELL" and they act out what they are feeling at that moment in time.
If a person misses that moment then the horse is ahead of them.

Setting boundaries is all about being ahead of the horse because if you are not ahead of him then he is going to be ahead of you.

"Feel" has EVERYTHING to do with looking at a horse and knowing what is about to happen.
And "Feel" has everything to do with being ahead of that horses idea that they are getting and sort of changing their mind to a better idea.

If the idea already happened,then the handler is just too late and any amount of smacking is not going to do a darn thing accept get all parties upset.

The boundary is very important and will not be established without some good leadership.
A lot of folks don't realize how much direction a horse needs to feel comfortable and if they don't get it (the horse),then they just start to make it up on their own.
A horse is so much more comfortable when they know where they are suppose to be and will relax when they are sure that they are in the right place.

These ideas are not something that I just cooked up with a couple of hippy friends and the ideas can be found in the books of 
Tom and Bill Dorrance,Ray Hunt,Buck Brannaman,Mark Rashid,Curt Pate,or a dozen other writers.

The other thing that I have seen in my life is the parallel between how people go about solving problems with their horse and also with the people in their lives.

It seems to carry over.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Marecare

It is the human's thinking brain which is left behind - the sub concious part of the brain maybe just as quick but if the horse moved first then we shall always be left behind. 
Age makes our reactions slower but we think more.

"It seems to carry over" - very often I suspect because a relationship with a certain kind of horse is a substitute for a relationship with people.
Horses are more constant.

One has one's up and downs but in the process one creates memories.
The horse has a long memory but indeed so does a human. 
Life is but a continuation of memories.

B G 

Tom Dorrance, True Unity, I have read - the others I do not know. Titles please.


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## G and K's Mom (Jan 11, 2008)

Mark Rashid has 3 or 4 books in print. They are all wonderful reads.

The three I can remember:

A good horse is never a bad colour
A horse never lies
Considering the horse


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Just do a search on the names and the titles of the books will come up.
These guys are very well known here and most of the titles are available at amazon.com.
I think Mark Rashid is up to 7 books now.
I attended one of his clinics just a few weeks ago and problem horse after problem horse was dealt with in a soft and quiet manner,But he was VERY effective and helped every horse and rider.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

G&K

_There are "no vote" items when it comes to horse's, crowding, biting and kicking to name a few. Your darn tooting they'll get a "bite" for any of those things. It doesn't come in the form of a beating, but I see no problem with a smack, be-it with your hand or horseman's stick._ 

My girl doesn't do any of these things. 

When she wants to get back at me - she'll turn her head away. SHe'll stand and wait. I know then there's something I have forgotten.

My hand is for stroking, touching, feeling, massaging, cleaning, soothing, never chastisement in any form. She must permit my hand to wander.

Pushing her with fingers or hand or leaning on her - instructs her to move over. She knows I am close and she is careful not to crush me.

When walking along in hand, she'll stop and stand. - a slight tug on the lead rein is enough to move her on. But I will know something is not quite right and I must look for what is wrong. There will be something.

 _I highly doubt it........[/quote]_
No, I have not had to "slap" her in 18 months. I never carry a crop or whip. If I ever were to slap her, it would break the spell. 
Raising - even using my voice is enough. 

But when she is excited or frightened then I have to sense it but usually I can see as I approach her. Her body posture is somehow different.

B G


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Barry--I completely agree with this post. I am a firm believer in "to get respect, you must show it" and by no means would ever beat a horse, but have never shied away from a good slap on the butt when its needed. I work with all sorts of dogs on a daily basis, from the most confident to the most fearful, and in out interactions, when I want obedience, we use our _body language first_. The animal will know what I want based on my feet, my body orientation, my eyes, my voice, etc. If the dog does not listen, then we get physical....If that dog were needed in a certain place in the yard that it was not in and refuse to listen to my "stop coming this way" signals well then I would physically move it elsewhere. If the dog comes back, then we do it all over again, this time with a "stay".

As the alpha figure in situations with both the dog and the horse, I expect immediate obedience from any animal I encounter. All dogs are treated with the same level of tolerance, no favors for a new dog to the group or a puppy. All horses are treated the same way. When they do not understand, they are shown. When they disobey, they are reprimanded. Seems fair, yes?

I think what you are referring to here is a matter that is commonly referred to in psychology as positive and negative reinforcement. To illicit a "sit" reaction from the dog, I could offer a cookie. To illicit the same reaction, I could also say, stand over the dog uncomfortably until it sits. If I want my horse to stop being belligerent because he's in a bad mood, I could either offer him an apple in appeasement, or tell him to get over it. Every animal responds to something different.

I follow the "stick" school. However, it is not a weapon--its an extension of my arm. If I were to treat the carrot in this manner, my arm would have been bitten off.


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## G and K's Mom (Jan 11, 2008)

> No, I have not had to "slap" her in 18 months. I never carry a crop or whip. If I ever were to slap her, it would break the spell.


I think you may of misinterpreted what my comment meant.

The "I highly doubt it " was in reference to your comment that if you were to give her slap it would set your training back months and months. That's hog wash. It's also hog wash that you must instruct people on how to lead this mare.

What you are doing is enabling her. 

What happens if, GOD FORBID, something happened to you and others need to care for her. What, is she going to go over the moon because someone isn't holding the lead rope the way you do, or open or closing gates the same way?

I except each and every one of my horse's to be ladies and gentlemen with whomever they are with.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

Even though a sharp 'quit' is undertood by our mares, I see nothing wrong with a smack on the shoulder or butt if needed. I firmly believe that discpline similar to what the herd leader would use (a smack is like a nip or kick to me) is appropriate and well understood. Also, they are not dumb....they _know_ when they have something wrong and I would go so far as to say that some sort of discipline is actually _expected_.


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

marecare, that was an excellent post. i firmly agree with what yourself and barry g are saying. as a person who works mainly on my instincts, and empathy, in life as well as in horses, and as i am dyslexic and underwent many years of speech therapy, i continually find that you both, commit to type, the things that i am trying to express on this board; you are both able to say it in a more dignified and "scientific" (if that is the word) way. i would say that in the last 15 years at least, i have not been barged, stepped on, space threatened, none of the things that i hear about on this forum, when these problems come under discussion. not only with my horses, but with other peoples horses as well. i know horses are so more intelligent that people think. i definately know that horses do not think you are thier herd leader- they know you arent a horse, therefore you can never be thier herdleader. and all of the dogma about it is flawed because of the fact that horses know we arent like them. which is why people get caught up in the constant need for dominance / submission. lead mare/ herd member scenario. ( i am not talking down the merits of observation of behavior and interaction between horses in the herd; i am only saying that horses know we are not the herd leader, because we are human- they know that) and because they know that, they are confused, and issues arent resolved in there minds; they percieve you as being aggresive and in there face, you are a human that is kind one minute, and not so pleasant the next in fact you are changable and therefore a constant threat- because instinct is a strong force- they have thousands of years of collective memory to tell them that the human is a creature that does prey on them- you arent the herd leader , and i really dont think it is viable to expect them to think you are. what horses do acknowledge is kindnest, continuaity, calmness, and RESPECT, and they will pay you back for that a million times over. if you treat them with the preceding 4 qaulities, they will give it back to you in abundance. i do not even use haedcollars on my own horses, unless for the farrier or to harness/ saddle up. they voluntarily put themselves in the correct place, they dont ever come into what people would define "myspace" unless it is in affection, when they approach in a friendly manner, knowing i will greet them with a pat and kind words, not a get out of my face reaction, which i feel is some horses lot- all of my actions are intermingled with affection, its all relaxed, its all confident, and thats what i get back; happy, affectionate, considerate, confident horses. as an add on- my horses are so respectful of me that if they accidentally brought thier foot down in the place where mine was, i will only feel the lightest of featherweight contact before they have moved thiers away from mine- they give me consistant consideration and respect, as i do them.... when i worked in national hunt stables and with t.b.s years ago, those horses, who had been used to years of a very different regime, used to delight in putting all of thier considerable weight into the foot, and grinding it in with a no doubt gleeful delight! ah, revenge is sweet!!! ( even to a horse)


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

*DiDi - seemingly a spoilt huzzy.
*When I wrote the first post for this thread I had in mind the attitude of a young woman who had written on an other thread about chastising her young horse for perceived misbehaviour. Today I have come to realize that my anger is mostly directed towards the owner of any ill mannered horse rather than the animal itself - unless the horse has already turned aggressive. As an owner of a rescued Rottweiler, a breed prone to regular issues of negative media coverage, I believe it is the dog who pays from the actions of the ignorant or incompetent owner. Likewise horses, living in a world dominated by humans, suffer if their owners neglect to teach them the protocols of living amongst humans, in an highly ordered society.

My own horse, a flighty, sensitive, intelligent mare was passed through the hands of five owners before she was five year old. The lack of continuity of ownership could well be the reason for her skittishness. Under several scenarios which maybe a more self confident animal could cope with easily, DiDi will show signs of stress. She will sweat up, she will profusely salivate, she will shy. It is my job as her current owner to bring stability, routine and security into her life. It is also my responsibility to re-school her so that perhaps one day she can fulfil her planned role in my life - ie that of a Gentleman’s Riding Horse. Despite having recognised long ago her problems, I am still a some way from achieving my objectives for her. One difficulty for me is that she is no fool. For example today I was late to let her out and when I did let her out she showed in a number of very small ways her impatience. It was appropriate for me to ignore her mini strops. She had made her point and indeed I had been late. Other handlers might have been more forceful towards her.

I believe it to be common practice for most private owners to be careful about whom they let ride their horse. I will not allow any ham fisted, incompetent rider to even sit on DiDi’s back. Neither will I offer her to be ridden by ultra competitive show jumpers or _pompous_ dressage riders. Out of the 15 or so riders at the livery yard only one young woman gets to ride DiDi. The young woman is quiet; she has a good seat and she rides well. She doesn’t shout, nor wave her hands about. She knows her stuff and can recognise when DiDi is trying to be awkward. I trust her with my horse not only on the yard but also out in the lanes. She and I have a similar attitude as to how horses should be schooled and ridden. If I am truthful, in many ways she handles my highly strung horse better than either I or my wife. But other folks - well it is not my place to comment unless they are seen to be abusive to their own horse and in fairness that is rare for me to see on our yard. Sadly examples of insensitivity, ignorance, impatience or other inappropriate behaviour are a lot more common.

I have always believed in handling horses regularly from the ground. I find the horse responds well when it can see its handler at head height. We approach frightening obstacles together. We turn tight circles, we stand still, we walk backwards. Her head collar is a 30 year old American nylon rope training halter which works on the nose and poll. A slight resistance on the lead rope is enough to communicate to her that she should stop or turn. Should she hesitate, without any more than light pressure on the rope, I first look round to see if there is a problem. It is generally expected that she walks at my shoulder on a limp line - sometimes even without any lead rope. I don’t speak with her except to request or to soothe. My free hand is there to stroke or direct. Walking in hand in an arena, or along a lane, or more frequently from stable to pasture, I view as a training exercise. I take her for walks into the village and we gossip to villagers. DiDi is being socialised in the same way as I would train a powerful dog. She has to learn to live amongst humans. 

There is a skill in handling safely horses from the ground. Whenever I am on the ground I should take as much care as when I am on her back, not least because the horse has a significant weight and power advantage over any man. For many reasons a so-called rider whom I have judged to be unsuitable to ride my horse, is equally unsuitable to lead my horse. Any unexpected (by the horse) handler bringing a strange (to the handler) horse out from its paddock should approach the task with caution. 

If I do meet with a rider who handles him/herself well and who owns what is obviously a well mannered horse, then of course it makes sense to let him/her to get to know how to handle my horse - just in case. But on a livery yard, used by riders of all generations, each with a wide range of objectives, one does not offer advice unless it is asked for. Nor does one interfere, especially if one is old enough to be Methusula. We oldies have an image problem with the young.

_What happens when I die_, well hopefully my wife will carry on. In any case, DiDi, the rescued Rottweiler and the aged terrier are each written into the Will. I would anyway hope that a well mannered, well bred, pretty 
Irish Draught mare would find herself a good home even without a dowry, especially if she had managed to mature into a Gentleman’s Riding Horse.

Barry G *
** 









*


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

*GENTLEMAN’S RIDING HORSE.
*The horse should :
go anywhere its rider asks:, 
at any pace over any terrain alone or in company, 

_The full description might read:_
The horse should readily respond to all of the rider’s instructions. 
and to actively pass: over highway, along a road a lane a path or a track
at: ground level or along the top of a ridge, through woodland or open countryside
at any pace: Walk: active or extended; 
rhythmic or fast trot: medium or extended
Canter: collected or extended
Gallop : fast or flat out

on any surface ie : tarmac, grass, stoney path, cobble stones or rock,
through puddle, flood water or wadeable stream

alone or in company of: other riders of every ability from novice to expert;
at the front of the line, in the middle of the line or at the end of the line

amongst pedestrians, cars, motor cycles, push bikes, lorries, tractors
under birds, kites, balloons, aircraft or helicopters

in wind and rain or thunderstorm despite plastic bags, umbrellas, road signs, footballs 

in the presence of barking & aggressive dogs, goats, pigs, donkeys & mule

The horse should show neither fear nor aggression to any human, be they male, female, child or adult.

The horse , whilst under saddle, should permit the touch of any human
whether male, female, adult or child.

The horse must stand on the kerb, awaiting instruction to cross a busy and fast arterial road.
It must pass over a narrow bridge across a motorway
It must pass through a tunnel laid underneath a motorway 
It should hold its line of march down a high street or a country lane with passing places
It must wait upon command at traffic lights or other stops signs.
It must stand attentively whilst its rider converses with passers by
It should move forward and move backwards to permit the opening of field gates
It should never ever, whirl or bolt in fright, in fear or as an evasion.
It should hop over ditches, streams and fallen trees.
It must submit to being tied to a hitching point without pulling back whilst patiently awaiting the return of its master.
It must stand to be mounted. 
It must ride on or off the bit. 
If the rider loses his/her balance, it must pick it up and compensate.


The rider‘s job is to set the route, the horse’s job is to carry safely both itself and the rider over the terrain, whatsoever that may prove to be.
If asked to trot, then the horse should trot, uphill or downhill until asked to change the pace.
If asked to halt, the horse should come to a halt and then stand awaiting it’s master’s pleasure
Never should it evade the bit nor jerk the reins from the rider’s hands.
If the reins are dropped onto the horse’s neck and no further instruction is given, then the horse should make its way at the walk back to the stable by the shortest.

Under no circumstance must the horse, balk, rear, buck or swerve for any reason - except in circumstances when the horse might realize that the way ahead is unsafe for example in land prone to bogs. Neither should the horse snatch succulent plants from the hedgerow however tempting.

All in all, the horse should be judged to be well mannered.

Sadly in the XX1st century , horses truly warranting the title 
“A Gentleman’s Riding Horse” are very hard to find. 
Invariably they have to be created,
* 
BG 
*


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Lillie

Put simply - "you reap what you sow"

Trust is an act of faith on both sides - human and equine.

Barry


PS My wife is a speech therapist - she has been teaching me patience and persistance for a long time.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> I think what you are referring to here is a matter that is commonly referred to in psychology as positive and negative reinforcement.


 ahhh! ive tought many obedience classes and negative reinforcement is my enemy. for some reason people have such a hard time grasping the concept because they seem to be just stuck in the words "negative reinforcement". *shakes head* i hated trying to explain it over and over :roll: lol


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

Barry Godden said:


> When I wrote the first post for this thread I had in mind the attitude of a young woman who had written on an other thread about chastising her young horse for perceived misbehaviour. Today I have come to realize that my anger is mostly directed towards the owner of any ill mannered horse rather than the animal itself - unless the horse has already turned aggressive.


thanks so much. as if this issue hadnt been hashed out enough in a previous thread which ended up locked, we have to relive it AGAIN.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

AlmagroN said:


> ahhh! ive tought many obedience classes and negative reinforcement is my enemy. for some reason people have such a hard time grasping the concept because they seem to be just stuck in the words "negative reinforcement". *shakes head* i hated trying to explain it over and over :roll: lol



Training dogs...

Training horses....


Different!


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

Marecare said:


> Training dogs...
> 
> Training horses....
> 
> ...


and how long have you been a dog trainer?

check out how you clicker train a horse, same way with a dog

check out how you shape behaviors with a horse, same with a dog

check out positive and negative reinforcement with a horse, same with a dog

do you praise your horse with treats? petting? encouraging words? guess what, same with a dog!

do you work on a behavior over and over to get it right and make sure your horse understands 100% what you are asking them for before it becomes a reliable behavior? same with a dog!


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

I don't smack my dog either.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Marecare, have you ever trained a dog in obedience? Its ALMOST the same because, although they are not prey animals like horses, what they are is animals. Animals don't have words, and so they rely on body language, scent, and sound to communicate. A horse understands that the rattle of a rattlesnake means danger, but its not a snake.

I was not comparing the specific species, more of the training methods. Although we do not teach our horses to sit or stay (I admit, after a long day at work, I go out to the barn and that is almost what comes out of my mouth, lol), we do teach them to stand, walk, trot, and canter on cue, as well as a myriad of other tricks that make our jobs as riders easier. How do we do this? They give us what we want, we give them a reward. Is it not the same thing in dog training? A horse doesn't really need to know how to lower its head on cue in order to survive. Then again a dog has no practical use for knowing how to pole bend either.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

I think we are getting to the root of the problem here.
Maybe you are approaching a horse like a dog and looking for more commonality than there is.

Dog:
Eyes in the front of their head and eats meat,hunts,has teeth to process meat(horses also).
Hunts in packs,makes friends with humans to form alliances and provide safety.

Horses:
Eyes on the side of their head so that they can sense movement(danger)and RUN away.
Eats forage with different teeth and lives in a herd for safety.
Could be compared to a deer as far as training goes.

I will admit that there are SOME loose similarities in the training, But there are VAST differences in the psychology of the training.

You don't round pen dogs,You don't bit and ride dogs,you don't ask horses to fetch,you don't ask horses to share your bed.

Different!


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

*Repayment in kind*

Lillie writes:
Quote: 
"what horses do acknowledge is kindness, continuity, calmness, and RESPECT, and they will pay you back for that a million times over. if you treat them with the preceding 4 qualities, they will give it back to you in abundance" :Unquote AGREED!

Vladimir Littauer writes in "Understanding Equitation" Page 183
_ "In all schooling whatever its goal an absolute priority should be given to calmness - to its constant maintenance when it already exists and to its complete re-establishment if it happens to be lost" _

_From pages 62 to 69 he writes describing calmness (in the horse)_
On page 63 he writes:
"_and it is the rider who possesses the means to deal with the basic psychological causes of a horse's nervousness"_

If you agree with this acknowledged expert's written opinion - then any _overt or excessive_ human aggression towards a "flight" animal must be counter productive. Horses are born with an innate sense of self preservation from which develops a healthy sceptisim of the unknown and hence follows 'fear'. A fearful horse is out of control.

Only human aggression directed at a seriously aggressive horse can be acceptable - even then it should be see to be possibly counter productive. If you want to 'save' such a horse, then you must find another way to dampen its aggression - or it must be isolated.

The rider must find other more subtle ways to instruct and/or "dominate" a horse. 

Always the constant question must be: 
"when does a "slap" stop being a communication aid and become a punishment?
"When does a loud voice become a "shout"?

It depends, in my opinion, upon the horse's memory and its temperament.

Dealing with troublesome horses gives rise to a need for 'feeling' - not just with the hands but also with the mind - ( in like "I have a feeling that")

B G


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

when viewing a herd of horses, i am struck by the peace, and the poetry of thier interaction with each other. there is little aggresion, they simply weave in and out of each other. when watching an excellent horseman or woman, i am struck by that same peace and peotry of movement. of the horsepeople who i respect, they move with the horse, when handling they dont make an issue of every little thing; it becomes a dance of co-operation, and the horse visibly relaxes. i can see it happen , i can sense the peaceful atmoshere it creates, and so can the horse; that is why it works. i believe that some people are born with an inate talant for horses; not everyone is, but this can be built upon, by actually slowing down and taking the time to listen to another way. i am struck, on this forum, by the fact that it is the very same people who again and again come up with the dramas, the problems, the self-congradulatory posts on how they sorted things out by showing who is boss being alpha mare etc. some of these people come across as petulant and spiteful, spoilt brats in fact, so to that degree, i think barry is right in that how they interact with horses is similar to how they conduct thier lives generally..there are also amongst us, myself included, those who have a genuine wish to improve things for the horse, to show that there is a better way. i do not believe we have a burning wish to be right, to be better, we are simply trying to state a case for a way which reaps great rewards for the horse and the owner. now as to dogs; as a person who has also worked with dogs for many years, i can tell you that it is not always the way to be stronger than them, in a forceful way; an agressive dog is nearly always a frightened dog; like a horse, it does not need whips, clicks, flags, or people on its case for every small infraction, it needs space, and no challenge whatsoever, til it gets trust in the human. and this is where i think that all of the alpha stuff goes out of the window, because animals sense who is naturally dominant; it can be taught to a degree, but much like a person who has a natural talant with horses, it is something that is inherant in an individual. and as a person who i assume is being percieved as a soft wimp who babies her horses, let me just say that years ago, i was offered a job with an internationally known circus, as a loin and tiger handler- why? because the person who owned it thought i had inherant qualities that the cats would sense and respect. i point this out only to demonstrate that you dont have to be anything other than relaxed, for an animal to be aware of your strength, you dont have to do all of the sharp discipline to get the respect. what you have to have is the ability to be alert to everything that could possibly happen, whilst remaining relaxed. you have to be able to anylyze what has haappened, why it happened, and what needs to change so that it doesnt happen again, and for that you need an open mind, and the ability to put the responsibility firmly where it belongs, on yourself.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

Marecare said:


> Dog:
> Eyes in the front of their head and eats meat,hunts,has teeth to process meat(horses also).
> Hunts in packs,makes friends with humans to form alliances and provide safety.


 i dont know about you but i dont rely on my dogs for safety. secondly youre going back to considering them as "wild" animals. of which i have heard on this forum MANY times- you CANNOT compare a domesticated animal to one in the wild. 


rabbits can be trained. they are prey animals. so youre saying i have to train a rabbit like a horse? ferrets can be trained, they are prey animals. rats/mice and be trained and are HIGHLY intelligent, and they are prey animals. you know how all these animals learn? shaping behaviors, consistancy, praise, reward, etc. you think when that rat gets through the maze there will be a trap? nope, a yummy treat. thats why they LEARN to go through that maze. that would be positive reinforcement. oh and when theyre learning the maze there are little bits of treats throughout to guide them and teach them the pattern. you know what that is? SHAPING a behavior.

so dont tell me because a dog is a predator, you have to train them differently.


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

excuse me , but i havent called anyone a name, i havent said i was above anyone, and to be frank, who voted you the post police of this forum? because you continually take exception to what i say is a matter of concern only to yourself, i imagine everyone else is rather bored with it: i am. i refuse to ruin an interesting thread by pandering to you.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

I think this forum has something for everyone and this thread is a very good example of that.
VERY different philosophies at work indeed.

At 57 I doubt that I can retrain myself to retrain all my 18 horses like a dog.
I also doubt that I can retrain myself to retrain my dog like my horses.

Some thing are just better left as they are.

Barry and Lillie,
I do enjoy both of your approaches to horses and I really think you are on to something.
Maybe there are a few other that are listening.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

Marecare said:


> At 57 I doubt that I can retrain myself to retrain all my 18 horses like a dog.
> I also doubt that I can retrain myself to retrain my dog like my horses.
> 
> Some thing are just better left as they are.


im not saying you should retrain anything. you have done what worked for you. and i think this is a lot of what people miss. too many people are focused on whos method is better. but when it comes down to it, it doesnt matter. its what works for who. i get sick of people putting themselves above others when it comes to threads like these. everyone does things differently, and a lot of times ESPECIALLY in horse training, we have to agree to disagree. everyone has their own way, oh well. i dont care if someone does or doesnt smack their horses. if its abuse, yep that matters to me, but if thats the way you want to correct your horse, then so be it. who am i to tell you your right or wrong?


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

AlmagroN said:


> im not saying you should retrain anything. you have done what worked for you. and i think this is a lot of what people miss. too many people are focused on whos method is better. but when it comes down to it, it doesnt matter. its what works for who. i get sick of people putting themselves above others when it comes to threads like these. everyone does things differently, and a lot of times ESPECIALLY in horse training, we have to agree to disagree. everyone has their own way, oh well. i dont care if someone does or doesnt smack their horses. if its abuse, yep that matters to me, but if thats the way you want to correct your horse, then so be it. who am i to tell you your right or wrong?



Ahhhh,
But I don't have to smack ANY of the horses here as I retrain them from the habits that they received at the hand of another.
As a person that is in CONSTANT contact with horses that have been pushed,smacked,bossed,dominated,and mishandled I have developed MY opinion.
You are free to continue to train your horse like a dog all you like.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

I have a really hard time taking what some of you are saying seriously due to the amount of improper punctuation, lack of capitols and spelling errors, Just sayin' 

_*when viewing a herd of horses, i am struck by the peace, and the poetry of thier interaction with each other.*_
Are herds different in England? I came outside this morning to my goof ball mare stuck in between two fences (She got out of hers and into the 6' isle between her fence and another fence) The two remaining horses in her fence were left leaderless and thus were killing eachother over who was now boss. The three in the other fence were killing eachother trying to be the first to touch her nose since she was right there in there isle way staring at them. They were also later this morning arguing over who got what part of the round bale (Because obviously a ROUND bale has better "corners" right?)
I see my horses as a house full of siblings on a rainy day, Not so much peace and poetry together although they are beautiful and a lot of fun to watch. This is why if you watch the documentary on Cloud the wild stallion every horse is bit to shreds... thats not what I call gentle, loving, peace or poetry!

Although I don't agree or disagree with any which way wholeheartedly and I am by no means quick tempered with horses... Marecare and Lillie I have a gelding here that I would love to see you handle your way. (I don't fully doubt that you possibly could get threw to him but I don't have much faith that you could either, if that makes seance) No hitting, no crops, no nose chain - not that he requires this but he'd eat a soft handed person alive. If you give him respect and space he'll take you for all your worth. I know this because I do agree with what your saying and that IS the way to go for nearly all horses. But we offered him this choice and he takes full advantage. No amount of human thinking will work with him, he'll out think your every "nice" game. If he steps out of line its a clever colt game you need to beat him at, which would include you nipping him AKA hitting, unless you'd like to bite him but not sure that would work well  

But seriously, after reading these two threads and both of your inputs I'd love to watch you work with this horse. It could go one of two ways, you'd deck him a good one and find out not every horse responds well to sweet talk or I'd learn whatever the heck your doing because you'd be the first to have never swatted him for something or another.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

New_image said:


> I have a really hard time taking what some of you are saying seriously due to the amount of improper punctuation, lack of capitols and spelling errors, Just sayin'
> 
> _*when viewing a herd of horses, i am struck by the peace, and the poetry of thier interaction with each other.*_
> Are herds different in England? I came outside this morning to my goof ball mare stuck in between two fences (She got out of hers and into the 6' isle between her fence and another fence) The two remaining horses in her fence were left leaderless and thus were killing eachother over who was now boss. The three in the other fence were killing eachother trying to be the first to touch her nose since she was right there in there isle way staring at them. They were also later this morning arguing over who got what part of the round bale (Because obviously a ROUND bale has better "corners" right?)
> ...



I have heard this argument many times before and all I can say is "Bring him on"
I have had horses come out of the trailer sideways ,kicking ,screaming and rearing,trying to bite everything in sight.
Most all the problems are caused by other humans or a bad environment.

Now I am not saying that every horse is a cookie cutter and will give your exactly what YOU want and in some cases the horse just needs another home.
The dynamics that we (humans) set in motion by the way we manage our animals has an effect.
I could really do the same thing to a human by placing them in an environment that kept them alive but did not meet most of their emotional needs.
Violence,smacking ,and rough handling is just a waste of good energy and is not really very efficient when it comes to training.
It also does not sell well to the customers.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

Good thing I don't want to sell him to any customers  

I was being nice, but it sounds like you feel his mischievousness is my doing and that he is in a bad environment and needs a new home? Pretty steep assumption to make....


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Well,
The other assumption is that the horse just came out of the womb mean and nasty and needs to be put in his place.

I just have not found one of those yet.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Marecare said:


> I think we are getting to the root of the problem here.
> Maybe you are approaching a horse like a dog and looking for more commonality than there is.
> 
> 
> !


I trained dogs for many years. Won nearly every thing there was to win, did 2 shows a week and ran clinics until I got tired of it.
I treat my horses the same way as my dogs. I even taught one to heel. I also always tell my guys to stay and expect them too , just like a dog.

No I think there is alot of similarities between training dogs and training horses.


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## 3neighs (Jul 15, 2008)

Some of the posts are getting out of hand. Please remember Rule #7:
*
7- Respect your fellow members.*
Please respect all members and their beliefs. Sometimes people think it is ok to criticize someone based on their training methods or riding style. This boils down to "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all". If someone posts about jumping 3 feet for the first time, and you don't like jumping, then ignore the post. On the other hand, if someone posts a thread saying that their training method is the best, you -do- have the right to respectfully disagree with them in a kind, non attacking way.


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

i think those of us who are advocating a more passive approach are saying that there is a great strength in it. there is an entirely different atmoshere which filters down to the horse without you doing a thing. and the horse is a reactionary creature; its survival depends on it. putting it in human terms, if you work or live with someone who is constantly on your case for every percieved infraction of what they dictate is good behavior, or acceptable behavior, there is a good chance that at some point you are going to rebel, or get revenge in some subtle way. those sort of people are difficult to relax with. they are also very selfish people because thier needs are paramount; they see no other way, they can not comphrehend that thier behavior impacts on everyone elses behavior. these people are very difficult to live and work with, and consequently, those around them feel on edge. and i also think that because of thier behavior, this type of person unknowingly shows a lack of respect to those who work or live with them. the reason why i am saying this is that i think the same can apply to horsemanship from the horses point of view. what a human can percieve as discipline ( i am not going into all of the detailhere, so discipline as each individual percieves it) can be percieved as harassment by the horse. you ( speaking figuratively) may think you are defining your space, etc. the horse is not so complicated he is simply being a horse, therefore he is interpreting your actions as invading his space, his peace and quiet- he may for instance, be innocently eating his hay when you say "over". he is relaxed and happy, he is therefore confused when he gets a reprimand, for not moving instantly, and he cant see a real connection between his response or lack of, and your subsequent action. he only sees that you are changable, therefore not to be fully trusted, and so will never be able to fully relax. think for a minute, if you were eating your dinner, you had just sat at table, the plate has been put in front of you, you've just taken your first mouthful when the phone rings or the doorbell goes, and lets say your partner said " get that" and you took an instant to finish your mouthfull. if your partner then jumped on your case ie a push, a slap, a prod, etc. would you not think that person was being unreasonable? would you not be livid?? i believe that the horse feels the same way..... on a different note to the person who invited us to come and see thier horse. believe me, i have had a horse who had every issue under the sun. once you take the pressure off, allow him to relax, work with him , by anticipating and side stepping if necasary ( both in the pyshical sense and the mental sense) you would gradually see a change, as i see a change in horses that come my way, or that i work with. ( this is something i also want to elaborate on from my previous post, and that is not being so possevive about "your space" i am saying that you can simply share the space- if your horse steps to the side, simply step with it, continue what you are doing, but step in harmony with the horse. it neednt be an issue unless you make it one. ... i am directing the next thought at none in particular, it is a general observation---i find it interesting that the people who cant grasp this concept, for whatever reason, are quite aggresive in thier broaching of why it cant work, and take it as a personal insult when people say there is a different way; i feel they are threatened by it, it implies a weakness and a lack of control over the situation, and i think that this is a quality that goes over into thier handling of the horse; they wish to be in control, to possess. whereas my take on the subject as in all aspects in life, is that you must allow freedom if you take too much control or hold too tightly, that which you strive for is often beyond your grasp, or you lose that which you try so tightly to hold. in regards to my comment about being offered a job as a lion handle; i was not bragging or trying to be impressive, i was simply trying to demonstrate, that there is a inner strength from being still and quiet whilst being alert, and this is what was seen in my interview. i was trying to demonstrate that it is the inner core that animal senses, not the sharp movements, the reprimands. it is the inner core that makes you strong. ( and i add, i did not know the job involved the cats, it said animal trainer in the advert. what the owner saw was that the cats did not become edgy in my presence, they remained calm, and that was what he was looking for. that was the point that i was trying to make. i admit freely i would be scared to work with them, and i turned it down; i am glad i did, because the man who took the job lost his arm about a year later- one seconds lack of attention..... and to the person who says that english herds must be different than american herds; what i was actually saying is that the herd leader doesnt constantly get on the case of another horse . there is ussaually plenty of warning , and the point i was making is that when the herd iscalm, nothing going on, they do not push barge or threaten, they move around and with each other. yes, squabbles and battles may break out, but i was talking as too when they are at peace and in harmony with thier surroundings, and how they interact then, and surely that is what we want to achieve in our stables and yards.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

New_image said:


> I came outside this morning to my goof ball mare stuck in between two fences (She got out of hers and into the 6' isle between her fence and another fence) The two remaining horses in her fence were left leaderless and thus were killing eachother over who was now boss. The three in the other fence were killing eachother trying to be the first to touch her nose since she was right there in there isle way staring at them. They were also later this morning arguing over who got what part of the round bale (Because obviously a ROUND bale has better "corners" right?)
> I see my horses as a house full of siblings on a rainy day, Not so much peace and poetry together although they are beautiful and a lot of fun to watch. This is why if you watch the documentary on Cloud the wild stallion every horse is bit to shreds... thats not what I call gentle, loving, peace or poetry!


Loved the way you put it. Yes, when my mares are running in the field with mane and tail floating it's a real poetry. Like 5% of the time. Another like 20-30% of the time is arguing who is more bossy. I must admit they are gentle with each other comparable to so many cases I've seen (and I think mostly because they have enough food and attention (and treats too), so they don't actually argue over the hay and so on. 

I agree with people saying there is lots of similarity between training dogs and horses: consistence and patience are among those. I must admit my horses (as well as dogs and cats) are rotten spoiled. BUT I have no problem to discipline them. Do they respect or love me less? NO WAY! Animals are not stupid and understand something is wrong.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

*Carrot or Stick - Pull or Push?*


This thread has undoubtedly gone beyond the preferred parameters of an exchange of views amongst like minded people, which is sad. But the subject matter is fascinating because all of we horse owners are involved with the further education of our equine dependents. As a result I, for one, have sat and reconsidered my policy for the education of my own horse in connection with the wish to develop her into a Gentleman’s Riding Horse. 


I am indeed privileged because I only have to consider my own requirements when dealing with one carefully selected horse which was chosen for a well defined role in my life. I now am more conscious that my tuition of DiDi has been designed to fit the needs of a canny horse whose temperament is utterly benign towards humans. My major role in her life from my perspective is to help her conquer her innate fears; my role in her life from her perspective is to keep her safe, sheltered and otherwise well provided for. Whatever, she is to suppress her instinct to run away when her imagination gets the better of her. In the old days when cavalry charged to war there was a certain elan which urged a herd of horses to charge a line of exploding muskets. Nowadays all that is available to urge on a fearful horse against a mechanical contraption is the exaltation of the rider and perhaps a tickle from riding boots fitted with spurs.


A criticism to be accepted by me is that for a variety of reasons I have the luxury of being able to pander to the whims of a spoilt Irish mare. It is not the first time an Englishman has been deceived by an Irish huzzy. A statue of Mistress Molly Malone was long ago erected in Dublin. I am not a professional horse handler and I don’t ever have to face the responsibility of finding a cure for a damaged horse; a state for which I am eternally thankful. I am merely grateful that there are folks out there who are prepared to help horses find a way of living alongside mankind in this unforgiving world. 
DiDi can still have her carrots but in future she is going to have to bend her neck to get them.


Let us all be friends again.

Barry G


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Loved the way you put it. Yes, when my mares are running in the field with mane and tail floating it's a real poetry. Like 5% of the time. Another like 20-30% of the time is arguing who is more bossy. I must admit they are gentle with each other comparable to so many cases I've seen (and I think mostly because they have enough food and attention (and treats too), so they don't actually argue over the hay and so on.
> 
> I agree with people saying there is lots of similarity between training dogs and horses: consistence and patience are among those. I must admit my horses (as well as dogs and cats) are rotten spoiled. BUT I have no problem to discipline them. Do they respect or love me less? NO WAY! Animals are not stupid and understand something is wrong.



I would submit for your consideration that YOUR herd may not be a complete representation of all herds and I have found a MUCH higher level of cooperation in my herd then you have experienced.
The arguing is so much lower because there is a VERY clear leader to direct the rest of the herd.
The leader is not a bully and the true leader is usually a mare.

In the wild the stallions come and go and fight and argue,BUT there is always a mare that is at the core of the band and is the center of the herd.
She stays in the herd for life.


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

hmm i guess theres the element of the environment that you keep the horses in... my grandfather had 28, including a stallion, and for the most part it was exceptionally calm, pretty much as i stated earlier. my own small herd of 2 or 3, kept in a very small area, exhibit no agression to each other; they certainly wouldnt start sussing out who was the boss, if one got caught in the fence or whatever; they would simply get on with eating or watching the view. i would say that is just because they live with an overall feel of calm and pleasantness, and they pick up on that. no doubt others will make disparging remarks; all i'm saying is what is our reality, and that maybe it is your perception of what you are seeing; in my post i actually was not referring to running in the fields with manes and tails flowing free (?) i was saying that it is not all "snipe, nip charge- your in my space" type of behavior it is grazing and watching, and a relaxed moving out of each others way. or perhaps my horses are just more civilized than others??? basically you ( figuratively speaking) can pick up and ridecule any segment of any post , by any person on this forum, but if we thought like that about everything, and didnt explore new ideas, we would, as a species, be yet to invent the wheel.


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

barry, i loved your last post, and your humour!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Marecare said:


> I would submit for your consideration that YOUR herd may not be a complete representation of all herds and I have found a MUCH higher level of cooperation in my herd then you have experienced.
> The arguing is so much lower because there is a VERY clear leader to direct the rest of the herd.
> The leader is not a bully and the true leader is usually a mare.
> 
> ...


Hmmmm... How is that related to my post? :lol:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Barry Godden said:


> DiDi can still have her carrots but in future *she is going to have to bend her neck to get them.*
> 
> 
> Let us all be friends again.
> ...


My mares should bend necks for the carrot every time before the ride (to stretch).


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I trained dogs for many years. Won nearly every thing there was to win, did 2 shows a week and ran clinics until I got tired of it.
> I treat my horses the same way as my dogs. I even taught one to heel. I also always tell my guys to stay and expect them too , just like a dog.
> 
> No I think there is alot of similarities between training dogs and training horses.


Very true. My dad and step-dad use the same basic rules for horses, dogs, and children...lol. It seems to have worked so far.  My horse know stand, and I expect the to "heel"when on a lead rope just like I expect my dog to heel on her leash. I think that there are some differnences, but most of them are from animal to animal not throughout the entire species.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

SmoothTrails said:


> I expect the to "heel"when on a lead rope just like I expect my dog to heel on her leash.


NO . I ment for my guy to heal off leash. I would go to the field, whistle, open the gate and the horse would come running, through the gate and swing around to my right side and stand while the gate was latched and then as I walked off he would walk by my right shoulder, shoulder to shoulder, no leash, no nothing. I would get to the barn, tell him to stay, go inside for a hoof pick, pick the feet then once again heel into the barn. I didn't want to mess up the floor.
I groomed all the time without a thing on the horse, just a free stand.

They are as smart as any dog.


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

I think that things got a little crazy here. People relax  Sometimes it is good to listen and learn to see if you think your ideas could work in a specific situation. None of us knows what to do in EVERY situation. We would have to be some type of supernatural power to do that. You learn something new everyday, or you die...lol. That's how life is. Just enjoy it and don't get riled up because everyone has a little bit of a different opinion. Debating and discussing things are much more fun than arguing. Don't take people's opinions personally or make them personal to other people. 

My horses also play fight and try to boss each other around a lot. Maybe you just don't have very bossy or aggressive horses. If mine were not doing that then I would be trying to figure out why they were sick. Any of them can be sweet and eat together. Our stallion will eat with stud colts, geldings, or mares that are out there to breed, but when you put a lot of younger geldings or mares together they seem to tend to play and fight much more.  I enjoy seeing them chase and play. We even had some geldings that played tug of war together or would chase each other with sticks. 

P.S. I loved your last post B G.


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> NO . I ment for my guy to heal off leash. I would go to the field, whistle, open the gate and the horse would come running, through the gate and swing around to my right side and stand while the gate was latched and then as I walked off he would walk by my right shoulder, shoulder to shoulder, no leash, no nothing. I would get to the barn, tell him to stay, go inside for a hoof pick, pick the feet then once again heel into the barn. I didn't want to mess up the floor.
> I groomed all the time without a thing on the horse, just a free stand.
> 
> They are as smart as any dog.


I've only had one that would do that from the pasture. My old gelding in my avatar was like that. I did get one of our projects to do it a little the other day. I had her following me all around in the pasture. I don't know that I have ever trained any well enough to do that without any fences, but I think you just gave me a new goal.  

You have definitely trained your horses very well.


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## Misfit (Jun 29, 2009)

Honestly, from reading this thread, I'm getting the distinct feeling that those who don't believe in physical reprimands look down upon those that do, or they believe they're better horseman, or have a 'better way'. Which, IMO, is bull. 

I smack the horses I work with, and they all trust me fine. They'll follow me, they'll let me do anything with them, they are geuninely happy in our relationship and they love their jobs. Just because it's not YOUR way doesn't mean it's not a VALID way.

For me, I have 'a line'. What is that line? The safety line. IMO, if the horse crosses the line that their behaviour is dangerous, screw being a softy, I'll do what works. 

Regardless, I do think there are certain principles that we can all agree upon:
1. Using as little force as possible, but as much as necessary. I don't like hitting horses. I'm not a violent person. So I start gentle and work my way up. The minute I get the response I want, I release all pressure and reward (often, the reward is the release of pressure).
2. Every horse is different. There are some horses that are so sensitive that they simply can't handle strong corrections. But then, there are other horses that you could probably smack with a 2 by 4 and it won't phase them in the slightest (not saying you SHOULD, saying it's probably possible)
3. No form of discipline/correction should be approached with anger or being emotional. You need to keep a clear head. Always know what you're trying to achieve, and don't EVER lash out.
4. The horse needs to understand what's going on. If a horse genuinely doesn't know what the 'right' answer is, then you can't expect them to know better. Also on this note, a horse must understand the consequence with an action. It makes me sick when people take their horse back to the trailer and smack it for a mistake they made in the show ring. What's that fixing?
5. Listen to the horse. I have no problem whacking any of the horses I work with a good one (if they deserve it). Why? Because they trust me completely/ are very confident. I know that it's not going to give them the horsey equivalent of PTSD (which I am convinced horses can have), or cause fear/lack of trust. However, if I get the feeling that it's not the best way the to get the response I want out of that particular horse, I will use a different tactic.

Finally, I'd like to point out the difference between using a stronger cue and punishing.

When I ride, I often carry a whip and wear spurs. Why? So I can give stronger aids if needed.

For example, I ask the horse to move forward by lightly squeezing. Horse responds, I release pressure and everything is great. If the horse doesn't respond, I will squeeze a bit harder, than squeeze a little bit harder, then perhaps lightly nudge, and then use a tiny bit of spur, and then a touch with the crop. The millisecond the horse responds, all pressure is released. 

Now, I will repeat myself yet again, the way this is handled depends on the horse. With a green horse, ANY forward motion will do. Even if it's just taking a step forward, or moving a teeny tich forward. If they leap into a canter, that's fine too. As long as they're thinking about "what does leg equal? maybe leg equals forward" I'm a happy camper.
With a schooled horse, they know leg equals forward. No thinking required. So, I may go from a light squeeze, and then if I don't get a response, go right to a light touch with the spur. I'll also be more picky with my response. I might be specific, I don't want a faster walk, I want a trot. I demand more from my horse because I've built it up to that point. 

Punishment is if I'm riding, and the horse kicks at a horse behind them, so I smack them with my crop. It's a flat out "no, don't do that!" not a 'pressure/release' system like I was talking about before.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

AlmagroN said:


> sorry, i highly doubt that. horses have flight insticnt. if a horse is cought in a fence, theyre going to run. its NATURAL. they see an attack on a herd member, and dont want to be next.























UH-HUH!


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## Kashmere (Nov 30, 2009)

A very good read.
Definitely need to give that a nice thought


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

Marecare , that horse is a saint !!!


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Wow guys 276 viewers in one 24 hour period - that is a lot.
Was it the conflict between the writers or the subject?
I'd like to think it was the subject.

Now - there is a book entitled "Understanding Equitation" by a French American Jean Fort Paillard in which he further defines the meaning of words used in equitation such as "calmness" "straightness" "impulsion" etc etc

On this Forum we all speak English, but we use words which are open to have different meanings.

In this topic we are writing or maybe just "thinking" the words:
 *training, schooling, teaching, inhibiting, deterring, chastising *
*and conditioning* (a widely used word with many meanings)

_Can we between us reach at an exact meaning in equitation for each word?_

I suspect we could all agree that to "deter" a horse from an action we would need to be more forceful but when "conditioning" an animal we need to be more circumspect.

Let us start.
_Who has got an all embracing definition of the differences between "training","schooling" and "teaching"?_



B G


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

hmm, how many times have i seen the very same thing that marecare has just posted a picture of? in my experience, most horses will stand placidly until removed. it is only when they went into the fence because of a percieved danger, in a panic situation, that they want to keep going, unless of course, the proprietor of the establishment leaves something like barbed wire or similar lying around to get tangled in, which of course would panic the horse. i do believe that the way we percieve the posts comes down to the way we meet life situations generally. it is a matter of how we view the world, after all, not the other person's ( no doubt i will get blasted for this comment too, by people who don't grasp what i am saying) .....on a slightly different tack, i would like to refer to new image's post on page 4 of this thread ( you will, if interested, have to look back yourselves, as i dont know how to do the "quote " thing) i will first say that i am using this as an example of how easy it is to not be clear and consise in what we are trying to say, and how easy it is for a person who wishes to find fault, to do so ... (i do not think new image is cruel, argumentative or etc.; it is just an example which struck me as humourous when i read it yesterday) ...here goes: she states that she -quote "has a hard time taking seriously some posts because of improper punctuation, lack of capitols, and spelling errors,Just sayin" unquote...she then goes on in the following paragragh to mis-spell "each other" twice ( it is 2 seperate words, not one) she then refers to her gelding, and goes on to say: (i don't fully doubt that you could possibly get threw to him but i don't have much faith that you could either, if that makes seance)... now, that struck me as funny, that the very thing that she finds annoying and difficult to understand in others, is something she does herself. the thought of her gelding and "eachother" of her horses sat at a table doing a bit of hoof-rapping at a seance, gave me a good giggle by the image it conjured in my mind... i say this not poking fun, i am just making the point that it is difficult to type exactly what you are thinking, therefore ,to a degree, it is up to the reader to make thier own interpretation of the post, and this is going to depend upon thier own personality, and how they generally view the world..... i have never said i am better than anyone else, i have said there is often a better way to handle things.... ( as an extra, to new image, i think it is a valid point that if the gelding still has the same issues to ANY degree, then maybe it is a viable option to look at other methods than the ones that you, or any previous owner, have employed with him- they obviously aren't reaching him in a way that connects to his way of thinking)...... there are also often comments to imply ridecule towards those of us who advocate a more gentle and patient way; if you look through the posts you will see it is there; again, it is down to the perception of the reader; each is going to put thier own personal take on to any given post, dependant on thier already established views of the subject....to almagron N, i do think you miss the entire point of my post ie human comparisson. it is probably not worth my effort to go into it with you again, but maybe if you read it again slowly, you will get the drift..... and finally , i have never said that i think every poster who has a problem with thier horses, beats them, reprimands them endlessly, is never kind, etc. etc..... what i am saying is that nearly every instance can be solved or avoided by a change in the human handler's behavior, or in a change of the situation.


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

barry g. here is my take on your conundrum; training is defined as an activity leading to skilled behavior. it also has another meaning; the result of a good upbringing. imo this is relevant in terms of my own and other like minded persons preferred methods of horsemanship, whereby consistant and kind, and intelligent handling can avoid many problems and trouble.......schooling; the old fashioned definition or basic definition is disciplinary correction. to me this implies a more focused approach of indoctrinating a skill, improving a skill, so would apply in refining an area for a desired final outcome, such as in applying the aides in a refined, kind and consistant manner, resulting in a certain finesse.... teaching; the definition of which is imparting knowledge or skill; this to me is human oriented; you are sharing a knowledge or way of applying that knowledge. there is an element of choice in teaching in that you can impart the knowledge or skill, but there is a choice as to whether the impartee wishes to take anything from it. the downside when it is applied to an animal is that it can be interpreted as teaching a lesson, which can then be interpreted as laying down the law, instilling a too firm form of discipline.


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## Attitude05 (Nov 11, 2009)

:d .


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

Attitude05; what does that mean please? (;d.) i just wanted to add to my post that schooling implies also a lack of freechoice as it is in a disciplined environment, whether in human or animal terms, and should therefore be applied in a sympathetic and fun manner. it should be tailoeredi to the learners intelligence, level of skill, and ptoential; it should not go past any of those goalposts. it should not be unduly forced.


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## Attitude05 (Nov 11, 2009)

nothing inparticular, was meant to be a  but hit a few of the wrong keys


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Folks, fighting or not fighting on horse's side totally depends on horse. My more laid back (and more smart) qh most probably will stand (did when was caught is hay net), my paint WILL fight till she'll free or kill herself (had this experience also, thankfully I was quick enough to free her). So all this arguing is just meaningless, because both parties are right.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Barry Godden said:


> Wow guys 276 viewers in one 24 hour period - that is a lot.
> Was it the conflict between the writers or the subject?
> I'd like to think it was the subject.
> 
> ...



Barry,
It is a very large question and I think I will just try to chew off a small piece.
I will give my opinion on the red above and will admit that I had to look up the word "circumspect".

There are a lot of things that come up from day today that I might want to change about the behavior of a horse or horses.

I look at it from that word ...CHANGE" and start the process.
I feel folks start with a negative and are trying to make a positive.
I want to start with a positive and "HELP" to teach another positive.

The word *deter *or *control *or *make *or just seem negative and is more than likely me after teaching for 35 years.

I sat in a bunch of classes and nobody every deterred or controlled or made me do anything as I was a real tough case and kind of like a bulldozer.
So I like to reason with the things I work with and before everyone gets all riled up,I don't reason the same way I would with a human.
Usually horses are easier when you explain it to them in a way that it makes sense to them.
If I had to pick a couple more words to go with that it would be to nurture,impart,guide,protect,enjoy,impress,and lead.

I just feel that all teaching can be a relaxed and enjoyable experience for both parties if the topic is presented in a good light.

Just tryin to keep from putting up "Another brick in the wall".


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I think Aristotle or one of those other Greeks said that there is no such thing as teaching, only learning.


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## Patches457 (Dec 3, 2009)

Wow. I Have Read This Thread Threw Twice And I AM Shocked By Not The Difference In Opinions But The Way Some Of You Treat Others For Thier Difference In Opinion! Not Only Do We Have Name Calling IE "some of these people come across as petulant and spiteful, spoilt brats in fact" But We Have Others Saying If We Dont Agree We Are Creating Bad Enviroments For Our Horses.

Now I To Have A Mare Like Berry ~ I Belive Who Was The One Saying This ~ Who Is Very Sensetive & Smart, Somewhat Shy But None The Less A True Heart Of Gold With Not A Willingness To Please But A NEED And LOVE To Please. This Particular Mare Would Be Set Back Months If Someone Hit Her, Was To Harsh With Her Or Otherwise Insaulted Her. This Particular Mare Has Never Given A Reason To Require Such Handling. BUT For The Sake Of Explination Say This Mare ~ Since This Seems To Be The Root Of All Here ~ Was Asked To Go Into Her Stall At Night, She Danced, Bounced And Spun Pulling The Rope Leaving The Handlers Hand Hurt And Then Took Off Out Side. With This Mare I Would Choose To Quietly Retrieve Her And Assume It There Had To Be Some Very Good Justifacation To Her Reaction. This Is A Mare Who Has Never Mis Behaved Like This Before. I Would Quietly Retrieve Her And Lead Her In And Out A Few Times Making Sure SHE Felt Ok And That This Was An Accident. I Would Be More Worried About How She Felt Knowing She'd Done Somthing So Naughty Than Anything. I Would Make It Priority To Tell Her Shes OK. 

Mare Number Two Here ~ Is Quite Different. This Is A Mare Who Enjoys Challanging People. She Gets Bored And Makes Games. With This Mare ~ Same Situation ~ I Would Give Her A Firm Warning At The Start Of Her Mis Behavior. Taking In My Surroundings Being Sure There Isnt A Dog Biting Her Back Leg Or Any Given Reason That I Can See For Her Reaction. I Would Then Assume Knowing This Mare That She Is Seeing What She Can And Cannot Do Tonight. She Would Enjoy Making A Game Out Of Going Into Her Stall, A Generally Rutiene Thing. It Would Get Her A Few Extra Minutes Of Good Bad Or Otherwise Attention If She Played Her Cards Right. Or Maybe It Was A New Handler She Thought She Could Run Over, Thats A Fun Game Too. In Her Situation If She Did Not Respond To My Warning She Would Get Shap Snaps On The Lead, A Firm "KNOCK IT OFF" And Back Ups. Then She Would Walk In And Out A Few Times Like A Lady. Should She Have Tried To Run Me Over You Bet Your Hat That I Would Come Out Swinging. That Is Unnessecary Not Allowed And Dangerous. It Wouldnt Be The First Time She Tried "Something Like This" But That Does Not Make Her Mean And Nasty. No. It Does Not Make Her In A Bad Enviorment. No. It Does Not Make Her A Bad Horse, A Abused Horse, A Mis Handled Horse, It Makes Her.. Well. A Horse! Each Is Different. 

MY Point Is That We All Know Our Own Horses ~ Or At Least Very Well Should. And For Someone On A Forum To Not Agree With Another Person, Whom They Do Not Know, And The Whole Lot Of You Gentle Only Handlers Start Name Calling. Its Uncalled For And In The Long Run What Good Does It Do? I Know My Group Of Horses. I Know What One May Need Anyother Would Be Horrified At. Reprimanding Mare Number 1 Would Shatter Her. Like Wise Letting Mare Number Two Get Away With Doing The Same Deed Would Leave Me A Horse Who Has This For A New Nightly Rutiene.

Just The Same As My Parents Knew Which Kid To Scold, Which Kid To Only Give The Death Stare, Which Kid To Send To Their Room, Which Kid To Spank and Which Kid To Ground. I Know What Works For My Kids, As I Am Sure Do These Other Petulant Spiteful Spoild Brats Who Create Bad Enviroemtns For Their Horses.

Each Horse Is Different. Each Person Is Different. The Idea Of This Topic. I Thought. Was To Share Our Methods And What Works For Whom. It Was Not To Point Out That If Youve Ever Dared To Raise A Hand To A Poor Defenceless Horse Than Your ~ Somehow A Wrong And Bad Person. 

If You Watch A Herd, SomeOne Is Always Poking, Glaring, Nipping. SomeOne Is Always Stepping Out Of Lines And Someone Has To Put Them Back In. I Have No Problems On A Day To Day Basis With And Of Our Horses. I Know, Love, Trust Them And They To Me. I Am The First To Teach Patience. Ride With Gentle Hands. Offer The Benefit Of The Doubt. Ask Lightly First. Clear Your Emotions Before Handling Horses Dont Take It Out On Them. If You Anger, Walk Away. However In The Event One Decided To Throw A Kick At Me Or Pull A Dangerous Stunt, I Would Not Let This Go Un-known. I Would Be Boss Mare To My Lower Herd Member And This Has Worked Exceptional For Me.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Folks, fighting or not fighting on horse's side totally depends on horse. My more laid back (and more smart) qh most probably will stand (did when was caught is hay net), my paint WILL fight till she'll free or kill herself (had this experience also, thankfully I was quick enough to free her). So all this arguing is just meaningless, because both parties are right.


i agree totally. here. a comment was made that they wont struggle unless theyre being threatened, which is completely untrue. for example, one time my gelding... not sure what he was doing, i think he was kicking at a fly or scratching himself... cant remember... anyway he got his foot stuck in the fence. he freaked out and tore 1/2 of the fence down until we got there and got him out. nothing was chasing him, no dangers, just the fence.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

I don't have time to read through everything, but I'd like to share a story.

On Monday, I was trying to catch my horse, but he was being a bit crazy and riling everyone up. Soon every (except him....) decided THEY wanted to be first in. Soon I had a herd of 9 horses pushing and shoving around me. Most of them, I'd stomp at them, yell or twirl the lead rope and they'd back off, at least for a bit. One mare, a young mare new to the barn, did not.

First she was just a bit pushy, so I stomped and pushed her away. She ignored it and tried to shove in front of me, refusing to move out of my way. Then, the other mares came closer and she spun around and almost took my head off bucking at them. Ben got everyone running around again playing before I could do snything about it. I watched myself and spun the lead rope to protect my "bubble", any horse will get too close when they are playing. I was watching another group who were getting a bit close when *WHAM* the young mare ran right into me and kept going. I went down on my hands and knees and barely missed her hooves. I scrambled up again and waited.

The mares ran too close again, and again, she ran right at me. Now that I knew she didn't respect my space, I was ready. As soon as she was in reach I whacked her with the lead rope, and yelled. I don't even think she felt more than a tap, but she backed off some. I headed for the gate, there was no way Ben was coming in and things were getting a bit dangerous for my taste

Rather then leave me alone, the mare wanted in first and hadn't learned her lesson. She ran infront of me, jostling with the others to get close enough to come in. I spun the lead rope as a warning, yelled as a back up, and then wacked her with the metal head when she didn't back off. Did the poor prey animal run in fear? No, she tried to ignore it because she wanted what she wanted when she wanted it. It took several HARD smacks before she realized I meant business and backed the h*ll off. And I mean HARD, with the metal head. No different then her kicking som of the other horses minutes before for getting too close (she thinks she's alpha mare)

Now, I don't like hitting another persons horse, particullary since I"ve never even met the owner. But if I'm in danger, you bet I will do anything in my power to back the horse off. Did I chase her as she ran in fear (because I"m a big bad predator)? No, she was free to run off when she decided she'd learned her lesson.

Yesterday, I went to go get my horse and she ran up with the others, looking to be a brat again. I spun the lead rope, and she kept a respectful distance. I gave her a pat on my terms and left her standing politely. Is this because she was traumatized by me? No, but she learned that there are consequences for invading my space, that I'm alpha and she can approach on MY terms in a respectful way


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Horse training, like dog training, like training young human types too, is not a one size fits all thing. Period!


All horses need to be treated as individuals. 

What works for one does not work for all and anyone who says it is their way or the highway for all horses is not being realistic.

Sigh.

And I too am shocked at the name calling and the implication that those who do not do things their way are not fit to have animals, etc.


PS - the caps did not bug me as the endless lack of hard returns in some way freaking long posts. No caps with long run on line after line after line is next to impossible to read. I actually ended up skipping some of those posts. Thankfully they were quoted later on so I could catch up on the name calling and finger pointing.


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

Excellent post. =) 
I too find that it's much more effective when you use as light a hand as possible. It's much more enjoyable for both horse and human when the two are happy to work with each other. When training my own horses, I try to imitate what horses do out in the herd. I don't see anything wrong with giving them a sharp flick with a whip when they try to bite me, for example. I never have, nor will I ever beat an animal, but I've found that horses are much more secure when they have a confident leader to follow and one who makes the boundaries clear. My horses don't fear the whip at all because it's only an extension of my arm. It's the same with a mare and foal-- is the foal afraid of his mother's back legs? Of course not. But the mare won't hesitate to give him a kick or nip if he gets too boisterous. That's how they learn manners. A horse isn't going to hate or fear a person just because they were reprimanded. The key is to have good timing so that they understand what they're being punished for, and not overdoing it.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Patches, not that it matters much, but I find your form of typing easier to read than the posts that are all one sentence/paragraph with no capitalization or punctuation. 

At least with your post I know when one thought starts and ends.

But, like training, each to their own.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I am addressing the big point of the thread. Where people are getting upset because they feel that training their way is the only way.

I have taught dog obedience for years. I have been riding horses for many more years. I agree that they are very similar. Heck, training (aka teaching) kids is some what similar too. 
Teaching/training any of them is not a once size fits all thing. So I do not get how people can say it is my way or the highway. That is all I am saying.

What works for one horse will not work for some others. What works for some dogs will not work for others. And what works for some kids will not work for some others.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

The use of dogs as an example in training horses can only work is the loosest 
And very general sense.
And I have not problem if it is referred to in that manner,BUT there is very little in common as we get into the finer points of RIDING and the meat of training a RIDING horse.

It wold be like saying that riding motorcycles is like riding a horse because you wear chaps and boots and sit in a seat and put your leg over the bike.

Buy the way,do you use split reins or roper with your dogs?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Marecare, if you think about it honestly for a bit you will see that teaching anything is basically the same concept. 

Do you use the same equipment? Of course not. I do not think my horse would like freeze dried liver treats any more than my dogs would like sugar cubes. But the concept IS the same.

That is what we are talking about.

Stop looking at the minutia to say they are not the same.

I personally ride English so I use braided leather reins if that matters. And my dogs leash is flat leather leash. Brass hardware on both.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

For groundwork dog training and horse training are quite similar. Both have to walk quietly on a lead and be respectful to the human etc. I believe that is the point that was trying to be made.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Lis said:


> For groundwork dog training and horse training are quite similar. Both have to walk quietly on a lead and be respectful to the human etc. I believe that is the point that was trying to be made.


Some what. But again, not talking about the details of a specific thing. The big picture.

You shape a behavior (or in some circles you wait for a behavior to happen), you praise for the right behavior. 

Where the two sides are not agreeing here is the telling the thing being trained they did not do the right thing. (Be it getting up from a stay or stepping on your toe with their big hoof.) Correction. But in both camps some trainers use correction some do not.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Well then it is not really an argument at all and if someone ssays that they train gerbils or gold fish that is a nice background reference,but still does not get the pony rode.

I feel that there is an opportunity (With this thread) to talk about the MAIN topic and that is how we as humans can effect behavioral change in HORSES to help in their training.
There is obviously different way to go about that and I will continue to offer ideas just as you will offer yours...No problem here with that.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

When I was picking out the hooves of my ex loan pony he decided because it was bad weather, he had to move into a different stable and he wasn't keen on having his hooves picked up that he would take it out on me so he bit my back. I just reacted without thinking and bit him back, he didn't do it again and he learnt that I wouldn't be treated with such disrespect. Now I didn't bite him hard and I told the owner what I did because I felt she had to know. She agreed that I'd reacted in the right way especially as he was being bolshy and throwing his weight around, he had already hurt me by shoving me against the stable bar so I was already hurting. Now then if I hadn't corrected him he would think that it was ok to bite me which would be dangerous and with a correction that was on the harsher side due to the fact he was in a bad mood it meant that he learnt being disrespectful and nasty was not going to be taken lightly. Horses and ponies aren't fragile and sometimes do need harsher correction because they are animals and try to throw their weight around. I don't agree with beating a horse but correcting them is fine. However if your method works for you then great, just don't condemm others because they don't do the same thing.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Well said Lis!


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Lis said:


> When I was picking out the hooves of my ex loan pony he decided because it was bad weather, he had to move into a different stable and he wasn't keen on having his hooves picked up that he would take it out on me so he bit my back. I just reacted without thinking and bit him back, he didn't do it again and he learnt that I wouldn't be treated with such disrespect. Now I didn't bite him hard and I told the owner what I did because I felt she had to know. She agreed that I'd reacted in the right way especially as he was being bolshy and throwing his weight around, he had already hurt me by shoving me against the stable bar so I was already hurting. Now then if I hadn't corrected him he would think that it was ok to bite me which would be dangerous and with a correction that was on the harsher side due to the fact he was in a bad mood it meant that he learnt being disrespectful and nasty was not going to be taken lightly. Horses and ponies aren't fragile and sometimes do need harsher correction because they are animals and try to throw their weight around. I don't agree with beating a horse but correcting them is fine. However if your method works for you then great, just don't condemm others because they don't do the same thing.


Lis,

This is all well and good.

The topic from my point of view is how do we as horse handler NOT get into that situation in the first place.
How do we see the behavior coming.
How do we stop the horses IDEA to bite of push or step on a person.

My feeling is that the "Correction" is well before the action that you may have taken.
Your teaching is kind of closing the barn door after the cow all got out.
Action/reaction.

I want to work in a proactive environment with the horse and establish the correction BEFORE the big correction is needed.
I want to train to a point and not away from a point.
I want to guide and not always correct.
I want to get way down into the reason and ask "WHY" and fix that.
I want to solve the reason why the horse wanted to kick or bite or rear.
I would like them to follow as I lead.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

He had already been told off for shoving me and being bolshy hence the harsher correction because I was not going to be hurt by him on purpose. I don't see how it is closing the door when the cow has got out as it stopped the behaviour and for the rest of the time I had him he never repeated it becaus he knew he would be told off for it. 
The why was because it was bad weather, he was in a different stable than usual and I was doing something he didn't like (picking out his hooves). This was a pony who had been left in a field for two years so his manners weren't the best. I didn't realise he was going to bite me as I was concentrating on his hooves rather than the rest of his body. If I had been grooming or just in the stable I would have caught it before hand. After a few corrections i.e just been poked gently to move over, he learnt what I wanted and would move or stand still. That bite was the only time I ever came close to hurting him. Just out of interest and not for an arguement, can you tell me what you would have done in that situation?


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Lis said:


> He had already been told off for shoving me and being bolshy hence the harsher correction because I was not going to be hurt by him on purpose. I don't see how it is closing the door when the cow has got out as it stopped the behaviour and for the rest of the time I had him he never repeated it becaus he knew he would be told off for it.
> The why was because it was bad weather, he was in a different stable than usual and I was doing something he didn't like (picking out his hooves). This was a pony who had been left in a field for two years so his manners weren't the best. I didn't realise he was going to bite me as I was concentrating on his hooves rather than the rest of his body. If I had been grooming or just in the stable I would have caught it before hand. After a few corrections i.e just been poked gently to move over, he learnt what I wanted and would move or stand still. That bite was the only time I ever came close to hurting him. Just out of interest and not for an arguement, can you tell me what you would have done in that situation?



I would be happy to because I am faced with many of the same conditions with horses that are brought in with similar problems.

Some of the most basic problems arise around ground handling like picking feet,having the horse stand relaxed as we ask for each hoof and not crowd us.
I feel that the place to deal with this basic training is in a more open area where the horse can be assessed to see where they are with their skills.
A test so to speak.
Will they ground tie,will they stand,will they allow a person to walk around them and still stand and stay focused on the handler.
Are they ok in tight areas and how do they lead in and out of gates.
Left landed gates,right handed gates.
Here is a group of pictures of a two year old being saddled and you may notice he is quite still.


























These pictures were taken at another time in a stall and the horse has no halter on.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

Definitely an interesting read. Thank you.

P.S Lovely horse.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Here is a yearling filly doing the same thing.

























Here she is on another day working in the open.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

Marecare said:


> Buy the way,do you use split reins or roper with your dogs?


 i guess this is the part that since someone doesnt agree with you, you mock them... or attempt to....



Alwaysbehind said:


> Marecare, if you think about it honestly for a bit you will see that teaching anything is basically the same concept.


 it can not be thought of that way since i was the one who brought it up and i have no problem smacking my horse, therefore its not in agreement with her, therefore i must be wrong before i even say ANYTHING.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Buck Brannaman,A cowboy's cowboy!
Hundreds of clinics,trained thousands of horses.
Student of Tom and Bill Dorrance and Ray Hunt.
The man the movie "The Horse Wisperer "was patterned after.
Robert Redford rode Bucks horse in the movie.
Trick roper.
Author of several books and a fine man.

Quote from "Faraway Horses" chapter 10 titled Problem horses and people problems page 204.

"Regarding a horse that is inclined to kick,after he's already lashed out at someone,he should not be punished.It's already too late.Nothing good will come of it,and besides,you shouldn't be punishing him in the first place.Instead,a good horseman will observe what's about to happen and act before the horse has acted aggressively."

He continues:

"Think of it as changing the subject or redirecting the horses mind.That takes timing and foresight.You have to plan ahead so that rather than seek revenge for the horse's misbehavior,you see his aggressive behavior shaping up and then can redirect it.You change his mind before he's acted and move on to something else".


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Marecare said:


> "Regarding a horse that is inclined to kick,after he's already lashed out at someone,he should not be punished.It's already too late.Nothing good will come of it,".


A new guy, a young freshly cut 3 year old, hasn't know me for 24 hours. I am brushing him and as I get near his hind end he up and cowkicks me on the hip. I immediately jump into him knees brought up high and hard into his rib cage. He never kicks at me again?? Was it too late to react? Did nothing good come of it????

Same new guy swings his head around to bite me when I am brushing his shoulder. He runs into the corner of the brush straight into the mouth. After a few lessons like this he no longer bits. Again did nothing good come it???


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Marecare said:


> Lis,
> 
> 
> I want to get way down into the reason and ask "WHY" and fix that.
> ...


I don't worry about the "why" only the result. You can't reason with a horse, can't try to go into his back ground and figure out why he is biting you but you can show him what happens if he continues on his present path. The kicker? Who cares what caused him to become a kicker. I want to stop the habit and will do what I must to make it very unpleasant to continue kicking.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

There is this funny attitude that sees horses as being magical, wise creatures that are above any petty moods or habits. That they crap rainbows and butterflys. You know as much as I love horses, and I have loved them for as long as I can remember, at the end of the day they are animals. Their instincts are to fight to achieve leadership but also to yield to it once it has been established. Their means of finding rank is to bite, kick and intimidate by posture, they do communicate through physical displays and sometimes brutal behaviour, have you not seen the scars on horses in a mob? Wrapping a piece of hose pipe around a horses bum for kicking is an acceptable way of demonstrating that this is unacceptable behaviour. A horse that kicks can expect a 'kick' back. I choose to use hose because I can't kick hard enough.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

kiwigirl said:


> There is this funny attitude that sees horses as being magical, wise creatures that are above any petty moods or habits. That they crap rainbows and butterflys. You know as much as I love horses, and I have loved them for as long as I can remember, at the end of the day they are animals. Their instincts are to fight to achieve leadership but also to yield to it once it has been established. Their means of finding rank is to bite, kick and intimidate by posture, they do communicate through physical displays and sometimes brutal behaviour, have you not seen the scars on horses in a mob? Wrapping a piece of hose pipe around a horses bum for kicking is an acceptable way of demonstrating that this is unacceptable behaviour. A horse that kicks can expect a 'kick' back. I choose to use hose because I can't kick hard enough.


i agree with the horse part of this, i love them, but i have seen truly crazy horses, that have been loved and cared for all their lives, but are still crazy, and ahd to be sent away :-( making sure they know what is right keeps them from being made into ground meat.a lot of horses actually appreciate a strong leader, and would get some bad habits if they ddint have one


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

My gelding is at an age where he is very, very full of himself. He tried to bite me a few weeks ago because he decided he didn't want his blanket straps (on his chest) touched. I whacked him with the tail brush I had in my hand and after that he stood like a gentleman.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I live at the other end of the world and have never had access to the sort of trainers (Buck Brannaman etc) and clinics that you all have. I had never heard of Buck Brannaman until a fortnight ago now I have three of his books on order. I admit to be very ignorant on the subject of training horses but I want to be better. I have done the best that I could with what I have managed to learn by myself with my own observations. I didn't mean to imply that I think you are being mean and talking down to me. The one frustration that I find when reading a lot of your posts is that you tend to tell people that what they are doing is wrong and then don't offer better solutions. Be as mean as you like, talk down to me, tell me I suck but then offer me better ways.


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

maybe others have said this but I'm feeling lazy and just want to get my two cents in:
I agree for the most part, however there are some situations with some horses where you really do need to be firm. I had an extremely bratty pony who would bite people VERY hard whenever he could reach them. I tried a lot of different methods with him, but in the end what I needed to do was keep a crop with me for just a few days, and anytime he bit me give him two very hard smacks on the shoulder. after that he's only bitten two times and never hard. I see it as this: he was treating me the same way he treats other horses. he likes to pester other horses and bite them in the same way. some horses deal with it, but sometimes he comes across one who will give him a swift kick or bite, and he learns to respect them and doesn't pester them anymore. when I chose to "bite him back", I guess I was speaking for all humans. he never had any fear for me or anyone else. after that incident we were able to have a great relationship.

my two current horses, however, are totally different. Kainne is very sensitive, so if he were to do anything dangerous I could give him a loud "no" or even just look at him differently and he would get the point. Buddy is a lot harder to get through to, because he was very brutally abused and disconnects from humans altogether, but ultimately he and Kainne are trained similarly, a lot more the way you are describing with your mare.

I have a theory that some horses see humans as funny-looking horses (not naturally, but after working with them they are trained that way) and some horses see them as predators, like you are describing.

it is never okay to beat a horse in any situation, but sometimes with some horses a firm smack is a necessary part of training, and not doing so will create a dangerous situation. it really does depend on the horse, as they all are so different from each other. some horses even seem to turn into different horses on different days. we as their trainers must constantly always adapt and be willing to try different things within the boundaries of fairness and respect for our horses.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Kiwigirl,
I want you to know that I stand ready to help in ANY way that I can and hold NO resentment or grudge.
I am reading your thread and will try to offer as much help as I can.
Trying to teach folks how to do some of this stuff in a couple of paragraphs and have them understand what you are talking about is darn near impossible for me.
Please bear with me a bit.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I genuinely would like any advice and help you have to offer. Like I said I don't care about criticism, if it is constructive and well intentioned I don't mind at all. I know what you mean about trying to explain something in a couple of paragraphs - look at the length of my horse story as case in point. 

As I wrote earlier I have the BB books on order, I would take any recommendations on other horseman to read, although the speed that I purchase books is cash dependant. I would love your help! Thankyou!


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## Seahorseys (Nov 14, 2009)

i guess you need to make a personal judgement call when taking into regards the individuality of each horse in question, or the specific circumstance that warranted the negative behaviour. Frida is my first horse and I am a pretty lax mom, i'll admit, but then again she is a relatively mellow girl for 5 years old. She responds to any type of discipline sensitively, so I've never had to smack her or hit her in any way. The closest I have come to doing so is when she began nipping my pockets for treats, or pushing into me nearly lifting me off the ground. She got a firm, fast nudge to the muzzle. She lifted her head really high and I could see the whites of her eyes as I held her gaze. Then, I began to pet her in the same place I nudged her away. I think that that is really important to the horse, that you began the consequence immediately, that the consequence is swift, and that there is an definitive end (or make-up) to the consequence. It is a fine line, disciplining a horse, because there are so many factors, and it takes a truely talented horse person to quickly decide if a horse is misbehaving, or if there is some other underlying causative factor. The prospect of making a mistake in this manner gnaws at me, so I always try to be fair. For instance, given her age, I don't mind if she's a little antsy on the crossties after 10 minutes, because when we started it used to be 5 minutes and she'd begin to dance. I used to be able to only hold her focus for 15 minutes during a training session, and now we can easily do 30 minutes. If I had disciplined her for losing focus, or for dancing a bit on the ties, I don't think that would have been fair. She's only been in training for 5months, and is still a baby. Maybe things will change for me as she gets older and there are no excuses. For now though, I'm having a blast watching her start out unsure of things and then growing used to them with time and patience. I'm either lucky, long-suffering, or in denial, because my 5 year old mare has certainly made me frustrated, but I've never had her give me a reason to dole out any kind of punishment. It might be different if I had a different horse with a different set of experiences and personality, of that I'm sure.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

kiwigirl said:


> The premise that you, marecare, seem to work on is that the only reason a horse will do something bad is a direct result of something bad that a person has done to that horse first. Personnally I think that is absolute BS. Sometimes a young horse kicks out just because. Sometimes horses are capable of doing silly naughty things off their own bat, I would say out of playfulness not spite but dangerous things nevertheless.


 i completely agree



kiwigirl said:


> That they crap rainbows and butterflys.


:lol: my horses do!




rockyxpony said:


> it is never okay to beat a horse in any situation, but sometimes with some horses a firm smack is a necessary part of training, and not doing so will create a dangerous situation.


i agree, and disagree here. the only part i disagree with is that its not ok to beat a horse in ANY situation. if youre speaking of a normal situation like a kick or something, then yes i agree. but if the situation is life threatening, then no i dont agree. this is a firsthand example of when its ok to beat a horse (i believe):
we had a horse in the barn, South Jersey Devil. and he lived up to his name. he was small, maybe 800lbs but he was nasty. when we got him he had already attacked 2 people, one was a guy who worked for my uncle, he got ahold of his arm when he went to change his water bucket and wouldnt let go, and the next was my uncle. im not sure what he was doing, i think going to get him out of his stall, and he grabbed his arm as well, chewed it up a bit too. 
we kept a top door on his stall with just a frame and a screen over it so he could still see out if it was closed, he just couldnt get to anyone. well my sister who is about 5'3" and pretty heavy (no offence to her, i love her but i want you to understand the force behind this) shes about 200lbs. anyway she was raking the isleway of the barn, someone had forgotten to close his top door, and he came over the door at her. he grabbed her by the shoulder and pulled her over the door into his stall. he began biting her shoulder and arm and striking at her head. she was swinging at him but it was no use. my cousin came in and saw her, he grabbed the metal pitchfork and began beating the crap out of him with it trying to get him to let go. he finally let go, but after that escapade, my cousin couldnt stop. he kept going until my sister stopped him, had she not stopped him, he could have possibly killed him. 
now you can say its my sisters fault for not paying attention, you can say my cousin could have stopped once he let go, but put yourself in that position and its different. my sister has large lumps under the skin to this day from the trauma he caused the tissue and muscle underneath. 






RiosDad said:


> A new guy, a young freshly cut 3 year old, hasn't know me for 24 hours. I am brushing him and as I get near his hind end he up and cowkicks me on the hip. I immediately jump into him knees brought up high and hard into his rib cage. He never kicks at me again?? Was it too late to react? Did nothing good come of it????
> 
> Same new guy swings his head around to bite me when I am brushing his shoulder. He runs into the corner of the brush straight into the mouth. After a few lessons like this he no longer bits. Again did nothing good come it???


sounds like my barn  i agree, and do things much like your describing



RiosDad said:


> I don't worry about the "why" only the result. You can't reason with a horse, can't try to go into his back ground and figure out why he is biting you but you can show him what happens if he continues on his present path. The kicker? Who cares what caused him to become a kicker. I want to stop the habit and will do what I must to make it very unpleasant to continue kicking.


 agreed.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Well,
Maybe I have Buck Brannaman on my mind because of this thread and maybe I just like his ideas.I don't know.
One thing is for sure and that is he NEVER describes himself as a "Natural Horseman".
The following words are not mine but I do look for places to repeat them as I feel that they are so true from my life experience.

Quote for page 187 "Faraway Horses"

"But a horse will still make his feelings known,and if you have mistreated him because of you inadequacies,his behavior will tell on you.You may meet someone like me who will tell you what the truth is of his behavior means.You may not enjoy hearing it,but the truth doesn't go away.
You can tell a lot about an owner's character by observing the behavior of the horse."

Hard words,but I like them and also judge myself by them.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

_Quote_

_You can tell a lot about an owner's character by observing the behavior of the horse."
_
_Unquote_

Yes indeed. 
"in the presence of the owner".
"in the absence of the owner"
and
"when mounted upon the creature.

B G


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## Seahorseys (Nov 14, 2009)

Wow, Marecare, I love that quote. It doesn't get more simply stated than that. I may just use it as my sig!


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## Kaioti (Dec 3, 2009)

I read through a good number of the posts in this thread. I may have missed this being pointed out already, but then again it is something that bears repeating. 

In all things, particularly all things "Horse" the answer is "It depends."

I will only cite my personal experience here, but it seems for all practical purposes to hold true. Very true.

First horse I ever trained on my own: Leader type, pushy, balky and a biter. Not out of fear or pain, but because he was boss. No one told him what to do. Ever. He did NOT want to let any other animal lead, human or horse. Being gentle with him got people struck and bit. I came and drew a hard line in the sand with him. He HATED it and crossed that line SO many times. Eventually I had to become an intolerant wall for certain behavior. Eventually he realized that pushing me Stung! In fact the only thing that got him to stop biting (it was the last bad habit to get cleared up) was a solid blow to the head as soon as he entered my space with his mouth open. He NEVER bit again after that and so I Never had to take a hand to him over it again. And don't get me wrong, when I initially took him on I tried a gentler approach and It DID NOT WORK because HE KNEW he was the one in charge and didn't want that to change. 

Another horse I trained: This gelding wasn't boss. He didn't want to be. He was HAPPY to please me, tried hard to do what was right all the time. He never in the time I had him showed aggression, and so in the course of all of his training I never had to give more than a very light tap on the shoulder, to remind him we were working. Never was this horse harshly reprimanded, but then never did he give me the need to reprimand in a stern way. For him kindness was the best tool and he was always a pleasure on the ground or riding.

Another: I once knew a WB paint that had been hand raised as a baby. She was HUGE, and food aggressive. Fun right. I was caring for her, but eventually felt that getting her stall cleaned and feeding her was not worth the real risk of having my head knocked in. I had refrained from correction because she was not my horse, and correcting in the way she would need by the time I came along would greatly upset the owner. I tried to do my job, but the last time I was feeding this 1100 lb mare reared, struck and lunged before I could even get into the 12X12 stall with the food. And don't get me wrong, she was like this with everyone, owner included (who thought that treats and kisses made everything better for her baby...who couldn't be lead without a chain. Even the owner used one.) Finally it came down to her or me and I chose to protect my head AND get her clean and fed. One bad day of "NO" with a horseman's stick and two less bad days of just being a wall with bite and although she clearly didn't like it, I was no long in danger of injury just by entering her stall. I didn't push the issue any further in this case. Not my horse, I wasn't the trainer, I just wanted my head intact and I kept it that way. Some may not like what I did, but I'm typing this so I don't care.

Last example: Half-Arab mare. She was a space cadet! A bit potentially hazardous because she had a quick flight response, was a bit high strung and had not developed any kind of meaningful relationship with humans. Humans were strange shapes that dropped of food, touched her for some godawful reason and sometimes chased her in circles...why she didn't know or care. She didn't dislike people she just didn't GET us and had her head in the clouds. The trainer didn't like her, and some previous attempts to get her started...didn't go well. And honestly, the trainer was good, kind and effective in all other cases. She and this mare just didn't mesh at ALL. So the trainer let me have a shot at her. I took the time, and she needed ALOT of time, to get her to SEE me. The first two weeks were just hanging out in the stall and gently learning that I wanted her to move away from pressure. I made friends with her. I had to give this one time to think about what was asked all of the time. She needed someone to ask, wait, show, wait, ask...but not push. Just wait. In 5 weeks she was safely and confidently under saddle, willing to work and happy about people. I know that is quite a while, but that is what it took.

Just like how the first and third examples took a strong hand. I hope that in relating these examples I can show how a person can adjust to the needs of the horse accordingly. I wanted to show how just because a trainer found force to be necessary in one case and used it, Does NOT mean that the trainer is abusive, or cannot see when a calm and gentle hand is called for and use it as well. 

In all things equine, "It depends." It depends on the natural mentality of the horse and experiences it has had. These determine how to train, not your human idealisms. The horse will show you what it really needs if you pay attention, and guess what? What one horse needs may not be the same as another. There are no tricks to training. There are no broad, proscribed (and well marketed to bleeding hearts) methods that always suit every situation.

It depends.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Kaioti said:


> .
> 
> First horse I ever trained on my own: Leader type, pushy, balky and a biter. Not out of fear or pain, but because he was boss. No one told him what to do. Ever. He did NOT want to let any other animal lead, human or horse.
> Another horse I trained: This gelding wasn't boss. He didn't want to be. He was HAPPY to please me, tried hard to do what was right all the time. He never in the time I had him showed aggression,
> .


I've had both of those types. I prefer the first kind. They seem to have more heart once you get them to understand and they give their heart to you.
The second type, the ones that give in right away don't seem to have the same drive.
I was into endurance and I needed something that wouldn't give in no matter what so the first kind appealed to me more.
I sold the second kind.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

AlmagroN said:


> we had a horse in the barn, South Jersey Devil. and he lived up to his name. he was small, maybe 800lbs but he was nasty. when we got him he had already attacked 2 people, one was a guy who worked for my uncle, he got ahold of his arm when he went to change his water bucket and wouldnt let go, and the next was my uncle. im not sure what he was doing, i think going to get him out of his stall, and he grabbed his arm as well, chewed it up a bit too.
> we kept a top door on his stall with just a frame and a screen over it so he could still see out if it was closed, he just couldnt get to anyone. well my sister who is about 5'3" and pretty heavy (no offence to her, i love her but i want you to understand the force behind this) shes about 200lbs. anyway she was raking the isleway of the barn, someone had forgotten to close his top door, and he came over the door at her. he grabbed her by the shoulder and pulled her over the door into his stall. he began biting her shoulder and arm and striking at her head. she was swinging at him but it was no use. my cousin came in and saw her, he grabbed the metal pitchfork and began beating the crap out of him with it trying to get him to let go. he finally let go, but after that escapade, my cousin couldnt stop. he kept going until my sister stopped him, had she not stopped him, he could have possibly killed him.
> now you can say its my sisters fault for not paying attention, you can say my cousin could have stopped once he let go, but put yourself in that position and its different. my sister has large lumps under the skin to this day from the trauma he caused the tissue and muscle underneath.
> 
> .


The most fault lies in the person that owns the horse not solving the problem before it got to that point. Some fault falls at the feet of every person that agreed to handle a horse that dangerous. If that had happened to me or a family member that horse would be dead or gone in the next hour. It is foolish to keep horses that can kill someone and the only reason your not talking about your *late* sister is that someone was there to intervene before the horse killed her. This situation kind of reinforces the point some of us were trying to make that the behavior needs to be addressed *before* correction is needed.


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## Crimsonhorse01 (Sep 8, 2009)

That horse is a good example of a horse that should be put down. I don't see any harm in thumping your horse. Use enough pressure to get the job done. A smack on the shoulder will not harm the horse. These are animals that KICK each other with full force. A little slap from a human is a mosquito bite. They are not people they are horses.


AlmagroN said:


> we had a horse in the barn, South Jersey Devil. and he lived up to his name. he was small, maybe 800lbs but he was nasty. when we got him he had already attacked 2 people, one was a guy who worked for my uncle, he got ahold of his arm when he went to change his water bucket and wouldnt let go, and the next was my uncle. im not sure what he was doing, i think going to get him out of his stall, and he grabbed his arm as well, chewed it up a bit too.
> we kept a top door on his stall with just a frame and a screen over it so he could still see out if it was closed, he just couldnt get to anyone. well my sister who is about 5'3" and pretty heavy (no offence to her, i love her but i want you to understand the force behind this) shes about 200lbs. anyway she was raking the isleway of the barn, someone had forgotten to close his top door, and he came over the door at her. he grabbed her by the shoulder and pulled her over the door into his stall. he began biting her shoulder and arm and striking at her head. she was swinging at him but it was no use. my cousin came in and saw her, he grabbed the metal pitchfork and began beating the crap out of him with it trying to get him to let go. he finally let go, but after that escapade, my cousin couldnt stop. he kept going until my sister stopped him, had she not stopped him, he could have possibly killed him.
> now you can say its my sisters fault for not paying attention, you can say my cousin could have stopped once he let go, but put yourself in that position and its different. my sister has large lumps under the skin to this day from the trauma he caused the tissue and muscle underneath.


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## Kaioti (Dec 3, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I've had both of those types. I prefer the first kind. They seem to have more heart once you get them to understand and they give their heart to you.
> The second type, the ones that give in right away don't seem to have the same drive.
> I was into endurance and I needed something that wouldn't give in no matter what so the first kind appealed to me more.
> I sold the second kind.



RiosDad, I do suppose that I made it sound like I didn't like this particular horse. ;P Not the case. I adored him. He was clever and a hard worker once he got the idea. Transversely the second one was pleasant, and *fortunately* Not lazy like many of that personality type are. I was just trying to keep the examples short and to the point. Heck, I even liked that food aggressive mare...after a fashion. ^_^

To the issue, I guess a big part of my point is that it is one thing when you are raising your own from a young horse (but even this, like the food aggro mare can show how it is possible to be TOO nice.) Correction BEFORE things become problematic is possible...if not always done. However, very often a horse owner has to deal with every experience that has come to the horse before they owned it.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

It just comes down to if you believe mean,killer,and uncontrollable horses are born that way, OR are they made?

I have raised a whole bunch of horses up from babies and have never had anything like what come in for training.

There are some REAL problems out there folks!


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## Crimsonhorse01 (Sep 8, 2009)

My other half got a palomino colt that ran wild. Worked him, as soon as he turned his back to lead him back to his pen he reared and tried to strike Bryan in the head. Bryan refunded their money and told them to get rid of him. My friend had a filly who was a sister to the pali had the same background. She was scared yes but not mean. There are too many horses out there to keep a dangerous one.
I do have to say that rearing and striking out is a reaction from allot of horses. It was the fact that he waited for Bryan to turn his back that was totally unacceptable. He wasn't abused either.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

I believe in both. I believe there are some rogue horses out there like there are in every animal species. I also believe more bad horses are made than born but quite a few of these horses need shooting as unless a dedicated very experienced trainer can take them in then a normal horse owner can't cope with them.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

Marecare said:


> It just comes down to if you believe mean,killer,and uncontrollable horses are born that way, OR are they made?
> 
> I have raised a whole bunch of horses up from babies and have never had anything like what come in for training.
> 
> There are some REAL problems out there folks!


cant ever say for sure. racehorses change owners constantly from being bought and claimed. he was a good racehorse so im sure he had a few homes. we gelded him when we got him, hoping to help change his attitude. all that did was make him a crappy racehorse, and never changed his attitude. 



Crimsonhorse01 said:


> That horse is a good example of a horse that should be put down.


 absolutely, but in the business, (racehorses) you end up having to put up with a lot of crap like that when they are making you money. we dont have the kind of time to dedicate to training like a lot of you do with your horses at home. their training is focused on the track, not so much in the barn. but anyway, karma got the best of him. he was stabled at a different track after we sold him, some guy was kicked out of the casino and went nuts, climbed the fence and let 9 horses go and chased them out onto the highway. Jersey was one of them, and he got hit and killed by a car. :-( i always got along with the horse and actually very much so liked him. but i was the only one. i also never let my guard down around him!!!

theres also a horse currently racing that is forced to have to wear a muzzle when in the paddock (where we keep the horses to get them ready to race, not like turn out paddock). he bit a guys ear off before (we have guys that have to come around and check their neck tattoos and a vet that pulls blood) the guy wasnt paying attention, but still.... its just not acceptable. this horse has won race after race for these people, so its not like theyre going to get rid of him.


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## Patches457 (Dec 3, 2009)

_*Be as mean as you like, talk down to me, tell me I suck but then offer me better ways.*_

Thats Funny, I Haven't Known This Member to Offer Advice, Play Fair Or Be Helpful In Any Way. Its Just Down Talk And Rudeness. If He'd Share Some Of His GREAT Wisdom Maybe _We'd_ Qualify As Horse Owners As Well, Again, Probably Not.


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

AlmagroN:

I agree with


Crimsonhorse01 said:


> That horse is a good example of a horse that should be put down.


 
to me, beating him may have been a more understandable response in that sort of situation..but I still feel that it isn't the RIGHT response. not going to solve anything except release anger. which I'm sure there was a lot of in that situation, so I understand. but it sounds to me like there was something mentally wrong with this horse, and if there was, beating him wouldn't really fix that. the solution would be to put him down.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

rockyxpony said:


> AlmagroN:
> 
> I agree with
> 
> ...


A long time ago people use to think when a person was mentally ill that they needed the devil beat out of them also.
Mental health was not born yet and as people studied the human mind they found out that pain,force,and abuse did not help the human mind recover from the problems.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

_Dealing with Aggression_
_ 
_This thread, which still seems to be remarkably popular, has drifted into discussing how to cope with seriously aggressive horses. Whilst some such horses may perhaps because of their athletic prowess have value to their owner mostly they have no place in a general public environment. The owner may be able to cope - the bystander including any children most definitely can’t. What we had started out to debate was a disobedient horse, one that needed chastisement - what we have been discussing for the recent posts are horses which for one reason or another have a grudge against the hand that feeds them - man.


There are different levels of aggression. A quick nip or kicking out because a trace lead of some sort had touched the hind legs or a rear from genuine fright or a buck of sheer exuberance are not to be seen as aggression. Indeed in the Spring it can be anticipated that an excited horse out in the pasture amidst a small group of other equally excited horses, might come at the handler with ears down and bared teeth. Such behaviour must be taken as a product of the horse’s hormones boiling over. Equally, unacceptable misbehaviour arising out of a state of abject fear in the horse is also tolerable. However a horse which will not permit the handler to enter its stable, or which will bite the passer by the stable door or a horse which always strikes out when you go to collect it - these are different creatures. 

A horse which violently tries to dislodge and eventually succeeds in discarding the rider needs perhaps re schooling, but if that horse, despite reschooling, continues in rearing and bucking - then what use is such an animal? Is such a horse to be bred from? Can you insure it against public liability risk? Can it be shod or inspected by a vet? Indeed can it be groomed? 

Or just maybe is the reasoning to keep it for no reason other than for the vane owner to boast : “_Oh I have an animal which is unrideable - he is a real tiger“._ Keep it perhaps and contain it, if that is your preference but think carefully before selling it on and please act responsibly by warning the new owners. Such horses do damage to the image of the species.


I very much agree with the point that someone else has made already. Namely that there is rarely a clear cut method for how to chastise a badly behaving horse. Some horses need a light touch of discipline, a loud voice may be enough, with others they have to be taught a more serious lesson from time to time. Sadly on some occasions they should even be put out of harm’s way. However any treatment we might dole out should genuinely be in the best long term interests of the horse and should not represent the vanity or misplaced sympathy of the human involved.


Never should anger have any place in the process. There is no justification for physically beating a horse which does not understand why it is being chastised. All one could achieve is further resistance and perhaps counter aggression or maybe, just as a minimum, fear. 

Fear of humans was very often the way by which men used to train horses but in this modern and more enlightened age is that the best method we can come up with? 

B G


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Again Barry,
I would encourage people to look for the reason of the aggression.

If I took you and put you in a 12x12 box stall with no view of the natural world,controlled every move you made and every piece of food you ate,then you would call that prison.
If we put a human into solitary confinement,eventually the human spirit would fail and then we would start to go crazy because we would not care any more.
Some prisoners get more turnout than many horses.
They have TV and books and work.
Aggression is (in many cases) caused by the environment that we as handlers place our horses and the demands that we place on them at the rate we place it on them.

Listen to the horse.


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## Kaioti (Dec 3, 2009)

Marecare said:


> Again Barry,
> I would encourage people to look for the reason of the aggression.
> 
> If I took you and put you in a 12x12 box stall with no view of the natural world,controlled every move you made and every piece of food you ate,then you would call that prison.
> ...


I'm with you on this one! If any of you have never seen a horse weave, you should sometime. Might influence your opinion on stalling. I personally would not own a horse if the only way were to stall it.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Kaioti said:


> I'm with you on this one! If any of you have never seen a horse weave, you should sometime. Might influence your opinion on stalling. I personally would not own a horse if the only way were to stall it.


I wouldn't own a horse if it was out 24/7. I couldn't sleep knowing my guy is out there in the cold, wind blowing and driving rain or snow. I need to know he is safe, warm and dry in his barn.
By 4:30 my guys are looking to be brought into the barn, they are pacing the fence wanting to come in. They go out at 8


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I wouldn't own a horse if it was out 24/7. I couldn't sleep knowing my guy is out there in the cold, wind blowing and driving rain or snow. I need to know he is safe, warm and dry in his barn.
> By 4:30 my guys are looking to be brought into the barn, they are pacing the fence wanting to come in. They go out at 8


Yes but you don't keep your horses in a stable 24/7 do you!? Which is what Marecare is referring to. Your horse gets to be out in the paddock being a horse. I think you will find that the reference is to horses that are treated as caged things with no freedom to be an animal let alone a horse, that live in stalls 90% of their lives and when they do get taken out are expected to conform and perform for any random human. The human who then gets angry when said horse says F*#K you and tries to smash them instead. This may be what Marecare is referring to!

(I'm sure you just enjoy being a stirrer Riosdad:lol


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## Kaioti (Dec 3, 2009)

Off Topic I know. Please forgive.

Rio, do you feed when you bring the horses in?? ^_~

Just an observation, but my horses are only made to come in during the worst weather, although they always have the option to come in any time they please having access to an insulated L shaped shed that is fully out of the wind. Why is it that half of the horses I have owned, knowing that they have a choice, prefer to stay out, even when it is cold and raining? These are also the horses that leaned toward fat and had good winter coats, never had any health or behavior related problems for letting them stay out. 

Are they too stupid? Are they trying to spite me for not bringing them in by hand? Do they like the cold?


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

Where I live you have to stable your horses over winter because land is at a premium and there isn't enough land for horses to be rotated so you're only allowed to let them out while you're mucking out and the only other time they get out is when you're riding them. They do very well. I also know quite a few horses who would rather be in their warm stable than outside so it's very dependant on the horse itself.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> I wouldn't own a horse if it was out 24/7. I couldn't sleep knowing my guy is out there in the cold, wind blowing and driving rain or snow. I need to know he is safe, warm and dry in his barn.


The horse doesn't always see it as safe, warm and dry in a barn - To a flight animal, being trapped inside a stall, especially in horrible, windy weather is not something they would normally choose. Most horse will choose to be out in the open in bad weather - Away from anyting that may fall/collapse on them and cause injury.

All my horses are out 24/7 - We don't have anything that resembles a barn. If they need doctoring, they go in the sheep yards. They are all still alive, and all fat and happy :]


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

rockyxpony said:


> to me, beating him may have been a more understandable response in that sort of situation..but I still feel that it isn't the RIGHT response. not going to solve anything except release anger. which I'm sure there was a lot of in that situation, so I understand. but it sounds to me like there was something mentally wrong with this horse, and if there was, beating him wouldn't really fix that. the solution would be to put him down.


 couldnt tell you if there was or wasnt. thats something we will never know. and i didnt say beating him will fix it, i didnt even think that. im just wondering, if a horse has you by the shoulder and is LIFTING you off the ground and over the stall while striking at your head, you would do... what? or lets put you in my cousins place and you come into a barn where this is happening to someone you love. what would do you? what do you think is RIGHT? apprently beating the horse off of someone in a life threatening situation is wrong, so im wondering what is right?


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> All my horses are out 24/7 - We don't have anything that resembles a barn. If they need doctoring, they go in the sheep yards. They are all still alive, and all fat and happy :]


 and my horses are stalled at night and they are all alive fat and happy... this comes down to personal preference. im with riosdad, i cant stand my horses being out all night in bad weather.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ OUR personal preference, not our horses. The majority or horses, if given a choice (a paddock with a run in stall) will choose to stay out. *Shrug* i'm not saying it's bad - Just that it isn't always the horses first choice.



> apprently beating the horse off of someone in a life threatening situation is wrong, so im wondering what is right?


I'm fairly sure they are talking about the beating that went on AFTER the horse had dropped your sister - That IMO is in no way right.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

AlmagroN said:


> couldnt tell you if there was or wasnt. thats something we will never know. and i didnt say beating him will fix it, i didnt even think that. im just wondering, if a horse has you by the shoulder and is LIFTING you off the ground and over the stall while striking at your head, you would do... what? or lets put you in my cousins place and you come into a barn where this is happening to someone you love. what would do you? what do you think is RIGHT? apprently beating the horse off of someone in a life threatening situation is wrong, so im wondering what is right?


I don't think anybody has said that! I would have gotten the horse off any way I could then I would have gotten my rifle and that would have been the end of that horse and I don't care how fast he could run. No horse or prize is worth a persons life.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> ^ OUR personal preference, not our horses. The majority or horses, if given a choice (a paddock with a run in stall) will choose to stay out. *Shrug* i'm not saying it's bad - Just that it isn't always the horses first choice.


but how do you know its not the horses first choice? my mare doesnt like being turned out a lot. she just paces at the gate waiting to come it to tell us its been too long that shes been out. 



wild_spot said:


> I'm fairly sure they are talking about the beating that went on AFTER the horse had dropped your sister - That IMO is in no way right.


it may not be "right" to you. but sometimes in a life or death situation, adrenaline takes over. he should have killed him personally... but that wouldnt have looked good for our stable.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

The point was not about horses that get turn out ,but about horses that are not allowed to be horses on a regular basis.
This requires SPACE for the horse to do this...........











And this!










This is what a horse NEEDS to release their built up tension and to relax.
If they don't get this from time to time they get mentally sick and start acting out at anything around them.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> but how do you know its not the horses first choice?


Did you miss the part where I said that most horses DO choose not to use a run-in when one is provided? That is how I know. Of course there are exceptions - There always are.



> it may not be "right" to you. but sometimes in a life or death situation, adrenaline takes over. he should have killed him personally... but that wouldnt have looked good for our stable.


So beating the crap out of him looked better for your stable? I would have done exactly the same as Kevin - As soon as he let go of your sister, gone and got a rifle and shot the horse. If you choose to keep a horse with those kind of issues, you go into it knowing full well what the possible consequences are.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

_*If I took you and put you in a 12x12 box stall with no view of the natural world,controlled every move you made and every piece of food you ate,then you would call that prison.
If we put a human into solitary confinement,eventually the human spirit would fail and then we would start to go crazy because we would not care any more.
Some prisoners get more turnout than many horses.
They have TV and books and work.
Aggression is (in many cases) caused by the environment that we as handlers place our horses and the demands that we place on them at the rate we place it on them.*_

Couldn't agree with this & Wild more.

Stalling is un-natural and NOT a horses preference by any means. I to would go nuts if I was jailed for no reason. Ours are ALL outside 24/7 no matter what the case.

_*and my horses are stalled at night and they are all alive fat and happy... this comes down to personal preference. im with riosdad, i cant stand my horses being out all night in bad weather.*_

I second Wild again... OUR "personal preference" not the horses. Horses would never say "Hey, great idea! Lock me up for twelve hours, if I could I'd like to stand in a cement 10x12 box please? Hey at least I'm dry... Thanks..." No they are outdoor animals, stalling them goes against everything nature intended for them and only leads to behavior, personal and health issues.


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

AlmagroN said:


> couldnt tell you if there was or wasnt. thats something we will never know. and i didnt say beating him will fix it, i didnt even think that. im just wondering, if a horse has you by the shoulder and is LIFTING you off the ground and over the stall while striking at your head, you would do... what? or lets put you in my cousins place and you come into a barn where this is happening to someone you love. what would do you? what do you think is RIGHT? apprently beating the horse off of someone in a life threatening situation is wrong, so im wondering what is right?


I see a clear difference between defensive mechanisms and beating the horse even after the incident was over. that's what I'm saying. I never said I might not react the same if put in your cousin's place. all I'm saying is it isn't the RIGHT answer. the right answer is to get the horse to stop and have him put down asap, or maybe even before the incident could occur because it sounds like it was possibly building up to it.

what I'm talking about is the use of beating a horse, as training. it's never okay to do that.
doing what is necessary to get a highly agressive horse to stop attacking somebody is not beating it. continuing afterward is.
that's my point.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

There are a lot of PEOPLE that I would much rather shoot than the horse.

There was a point in that horses life where he was just perfect.
Then what happened?
People messed him up and he learned new skills to survive.

A horse can be rehabilitated,I don't know about the people though.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

New_image said:


> I second Wild again... OUR "personal preference" not the horses. Horses would never say "Hey, great idea! Lock me up for twelve hours, if I could I'd like to stand in a cement 10x12 box please? Hey at least I'm dry... Thanks..." No they are outdoor animals, stalling them goes against everything nature intended for them and only leads to behavior, personal and health issues.


Oh please, what _is_ natural about owning horses? I have nothing wrong with 24/7 turnout, but in no way is stalling at night cruel. Take my boy for example.

My horse is not a wild mustang, he's thin furred, thin skinned wuss. If he was in 24/7 turn out, he'd be a rain rot covered, fungus legged, covered in infected cuts, freezing to death mess. He requires 4X a week leg washing/drying and treatment for fungus just to *prevent* it, plus thick blankets with a neck because he has no coat to speak of. His bell boots need to be flipped every night to keep his hooves from getting to moisturized, and for a long time he wore splint boots outside so he didn't injure himself by kicking himself. He gets new cuts all the time and even cut his bell getting up from rolling. He loves his pampered life! No way he would be happy and healthy outsifde all night, rain sends him to the gate wanting in.

My last horse would have been fine ou 24/7, he was tough, thick furred, and not at all delicate. There are several like him at my barn.

I understand how you could not see the stalling point of view if you are around the "outdoorsie" type, but please don't think people who stall at night have anything but the best in mind for their horses.


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

1dog3cats17rodents said:


> Oh please, what _is_ natural about owning horses? I have nothing wrong with 24/7 turnout, but in no way is stalling at night cruel. Take my boy for example.
> 
> My horse is not a wild mustang, he's thin furred, thin skinned wuss. If he was in 24/7 turn out, he'd be a rain rot covered, fungus legged, covered in infected cuts, freezing to death mess. He requires 4X a week leg washing/drying and treatment for fungus just to *prevent* it, plus thick blankets with a neck because he has no coat to speak of. His bell boots need to be flipped every night to keep his hooves from getting to moisturized, and for a long time he wore splint boots outside so he didn't injure himself by kicking himself. He gets new cuts all the time and even cut his bell getting up from rolling. He loves his pampered life! No way he would be happy and healthy outsifde all night, rain sends him to the gate wanting in.
> 
> ...


amen
people need to keep in mind that when we bring horses into captivity and they live for so long a certain way and are bred certain ways, all in captivity, things DO change and they are not always the same as they are in the wild.
we need to do what's best for our horses. some horses are very much better off stalled.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

New_image said:


> Stalling is un-natural and NOT a horses preference by any means. I to would go nuts if I was jailed for no reason. Ours are ALL outside 24/7 no matter what the case
> 
> .


Horses are not ment to just stand out in a field in the mud, rain or sleet. In the wild they know places, dry places, shelterd from wind and rain to go to. There are natural shelters, warmer then standing in the open. I ride in all kinds of weather and the weather decides where I ride.
I refuse to leave my guy standing out at night in bad weather. His feet are always picked, he is dried off and loves his stall. We have no problems with kicking the walls, weaving or cribbing. They are contented horses in a beautiful airy well lit stall with the best hay and bedding.
No my guys are waiting to be brought in at dusk. Yes they are out 24/7 in the warm weather.
As for feeding they have feeders with fresh hay daily and a heated water trough.

I even play country and western music all the time


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ I agree with you there, Riosdad - If your pasture isn't suitable for 24/7 turnout then don't do it, simple as that. My pasture has hollows, high places, natural wind breaks, trees, etc. There are places for the horses to go to shelter from the worst of the weather.



> My horse is not a wild mustang, he's thin furred, thin skinned wuss. If he was in 24/7 turn out, *he'd be a rain rot covered, fungus legged, covered in infected cuts, freezing to death mess.* He requires 4X a week leg washing/drying and treatment for fungus just to *prevent* it, plus thick blankets with a neck because he has no coat to speak of. His bell boots need to be flipped every night to keep his hooves from getting to moisturized, and for a long time he wore splint boots outside so he didn't injure himself by kicking himself. He gets new cuts all the time and even cut his bell getting up from rolling. He loves his pampered life! No way he would be happy and healthy outsifde all night, rain sends him to the gate wanting in.


He is a product of people, and (dare I say it) a product of his breeding. I almost said bad breeding - But that doesn't sound right. I dare-say he has been bred from pampered, fragile horses - Am I right? See I don't agree with breeding horses that aren't equipped to live as horses. Sure, everything we do with horses is unnatural - But it is my aim to make their lives as close to natural as I can. They may be good performers, but they are closer to pets than livestock.

I was never argueing that stalling is bad in moderation - Just adding that the majority of horses live fine out 24/7. I have never met a horse who HAD to be stalled - If I did, I wouldn't give it a second glance.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

wild_spot said:


> He is a product of people, and (dare I say it) a product of his breeding. I almost said bad breeding - But that doesn't sound right. I dare-say he has been bred from pampered, fragile horses - Am I right? See I don't agree with breeding horses that aren't equipped to live as horses. Sure, everything we do with horses is unnatural - But it is my aim to make their lives as close to natural as I can. They may be good performers, but they are closer to pets than livestock.


I'm not sure what his breeding is, but he was bred for the track OTTB


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Exactly - Most TB's bred for the track are bred for speed and speed only. Little to no thought is given to how their quality of life will be after their usefullness at the track is over - They are bred to race, and live in stalls and be pampered while they race - Who cares if they couldn't live as a horse if the need arose?

Not trying to bag your horse at all - But that is one of the reasons I stay away from TB's - They are bred to be an athlete, not a horse.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> ^ I agree with you there, Riosdad - If your pasture isn't suitable for 24/7 turnout then don't do it, simple as that. My pasture has hollows, high places, natural wind breaks, trees, etc. There are places for the horses to go to shelter from the worst of the weather.
> 
> .


No my pasture is picture perfect with tall pine trees cut to 8 or 9 feet to allow them to stand underneath, a windbreak on 2 side of heavy spruce trees growing right to the ground and 2 shelters, insulated and situated under tall trees and like I already said a feeder filled daily and a heated water trough. NO the field is perfect but come night in the cool weather he is brought in and I will have it no other way.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ That's fair enough, and your opinion. My opinion is that it is unecessary, not always in the horses best interest, and often not the horses first choice.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I guess the real question is do you/would you give your horse a choice? Those of you who stable their horses, lets say your routine at the end of the day is to tuck your horse up out of concern and kindness. Until suddenly your horse starts to baulk at entering the stall. Nothing major just dragging feet the first night, second night a little more resistance - say not wanting to be caught. Third night not wanting to be lead so a pull and a nip. What do you do? 

A) make it get into that stall because thats what you prefer and you have decided that horsey has too because you said so?

or

B) realise that maybe your horse doesn't want to go in so turn it back out and leave it to the elements?


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Personally, I would fix the issue with going into the stall until they were perfect. THEN I may stop stalling them.


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

wild_spot said:


> ^ Personally, I would fix the issue with going into the stall until they were perfect. THEN I may stop stalling them.


^ very very true. I totally agree. because you don't want your horse left with these kinds of issues in case there is a situation where he needs to be stalled for any reason.

but I would never stall a horse that would do better or be happier in a pasture, nor would I keep a horse out that would do better or be happier in a stall. I've had both.
to a point well-being does prioritize over happiness though. I have one older horse that needs to be stalled through the winter and he doesn't really like it, but he just doesn't do well out there at all, even with shelter, blankets, thorough care, etc..


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Definately agree - Health is always first priority.


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## angelsgrace (Apr 30, 2009)

I totally get your point the most i've ever done is a smack on the shoulder for rearing up I totally agree the only result your get from beating or chasdising a horse is an injury if not this time the next time you'll have it coming for you.

Great post and point the world needs more people with such a strong and good veiw

well done


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kiwigirl said:


> I guess the real question is do you/would you give your horse a choice? Those of you who stable their horses, lets say your routine at the end of the day is to tuck your horse up out of concern and kindness. Until suddenly your horse starts to baulk at entering the stall. Nothing major just dragging feet the first night, second night a little more resistance - say not wanting to be caught. Third night not wanting to be lead so a pull and a nip. What do you do?
> 
> A) make it get into that stall because thats what you prefer and you have decided that horsey has too because you said so?
> 
> ...


But what if the horse is standing at the gate, calling. Impatient to come in. What if he almost drags you into the barn in his desire to get into said barn?? And no my horse had better show better manners then that but you can feel his desire while he walks beside you.
All the horses involved love their stalls and putting them in nights is not a problem.
Yes I tuck him in, groomed, feet wire brushed, blanketed so he is snug, dry and warm while the sleet, rain, snow, winter winds beat against the side of the barn.
No his place is in the barn, not standing out, knee deep in mud, wet, buffetted by high winds and miserable.
There is no comparision between a horse standing in those conditions and one snug and dry in a stall he likes.
How about you try staying out in conditions like those?


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

We poor British cousins of you guys, live on a island 10% smaller than Labrador and at approximately the same latitude. Thanks to the Gulf Stream the rain is unpredictable as are the winds which blow off the Atlantic. In the winter we have a constant battle trying to do the right thing for the horses. Cold a horse can take but rain plus cold brings problems of shivering and maybe loss of condition.

If one is to work the horses then most of the cold blood breeds or cross breeds are clipped out - shaved either full, half or neck only. But if you clip them you have to rug them except perhaps in the summer. Anyway rugs help to keep them clean in the mud.

So my horse has :
Two sweat rugs of different fabrics
One cooler
Three night rugs of different weights
Two rain coats - outdoor coats without thermal liner
One detachable rainhood
One outdoor rug with medium lining and no rainhood
and one outdoor rug with heavy lining with attached rainhood.

A management board is called each morning and evening to make the decisions as to which clothing the horse is wrapped up in at night. The precious little dear.

As far wanting to stay out over night - only when it is a warm balmy night during the summer months when there are no flies and her equine friends are in the adjoining field.


In the fast grass growing season to avoid the risk of laminitis, the horse stay in during the day and go out at night. When the midges are about they wear very light weight anti fly coats - especially over the head and neck.

Otherwise in the cooler months in she comes as the sun sets, as her mates from the other paddocks come in, at a brisk pace to sniff at what she has been left for "tea". One does not need a lead rope - she knows the way.

Even my old horse Joe - who had a fur coat the equivalent of a polar bears' wanted to come in at night - always. But he was frightened he would be missing out on his tea bucket of: 
chaff + pasture mix + apple + carrot +/- parsnip or swede or pear or brussels sprouts or any peelings from fruit from the kitchen. 

I keep reminding myself DiDi is a horse.

That is of course not the end of her wardrobe.
Then there are dayglo jackets for roadwork, dayglo bum sheets, dayglo bootees, fly masks, ear muffs etc etc etc etc. 
Some young women even have matching sets - pink is a favoured colour.

No wonder I am poor.
B G


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Oh my! The thread is still 'it is my way and that is the only right way' but has changed from training to stable management.


My horses have 24/7 access to their stalls and they also have an overhang on the barn for shelter. Where do I find them most of the time? Standing in their stalls or under their over hang.

So say what you want but obviously my two prefer stalls and shelter to the real elements.

It is THEIR choice. And no matter how many times you want to tell me they prefer being outside I am sure they are not going to believe you any more than I am. 

And yes, there is a pasture with grass out there. Grazing happens frequently.


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## G and K's Mom (Jan 11, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> But what if the horse is standing at the gate, calling. Impatient to come in. What if he almost drags you into the barn in his desire to get into said barn??


The main reason they would be standing at the gate calling or trying to drag you into the barn is that they know there's a bucket in the stall with grain.


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## G and K's Mom (Jan 11, 2008)

Marecare, I'll see your crazy Mustang and raise you two goofy QH's. These 2 are full brother's and each and everyday has a "playtime".










We don't have tons of acreage, about 3 1/2, but I couldn't agree more that horse's need to be able to do this every day.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Perhaps we should get back to the original topic. I don't think how eager our horses are to be stalled is worth an argument and getting the thread closed.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Wonderful pictures GandK.

I was trying to draw the correlation between a happy,well adjusted,and cared for animal (balanced) and a well behaved animal that does not have many of the vices that get written about on this forum.
Horses experience happiness and yes they also have joy!

A depressed,angry,and fearful horse is more likely to cause a behavioral problem for the handler.
Sounds simple enough,but then why will the handler immediately start the "Blame game " the minute there is a problem and the horse is always at fault.

I go back to the original question by Barry and have to say that I do not treat my horses and I do not use a stick either.

I look for the joy!


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

OOH
I didn't think a simple question posted on the 1st Dec would lead within 7 days to 166 replies and 2183 viewers.

At one stage I thought I'd have to choose between wearing a blue hat or a grey one. Or come to think of it - I could have chosen to ride for California.

Glad to see we are all friends again.

Barry


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Marecare said:


> I was trying to draw the correlation between a happy,well adjusted,and cared for animal (balanced) and a well behaved animal that does not have many of the vices that get written about on this forum.
> Horses experience happiness and yes they also have joy!


Just want to make sure I understand.

To you a horse that is kept outside is happy. And a happy horse does not have any issues that would require it to be trained with a manner that involves anything but love and understanding. Do I have it right?


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Just want to make sure I understand.
> 
> To you a horse that is kept outside is happy. And a happy horse does not have any issues that would require it to be trained with a manner that involves anything but love and understanding. Do I have it right?


No you don't and you are not even close.

*Behavior* is strongly influenced by the environmental factors the the horse lives in and those factors* MAY* effect the attitude of the horse as much as a physical pain.

I do know of horses that are kept in 12x12 stalls in 70 degree weather and are never taken out but once a week for an hour.
This is what I am referring to.
Their behavior will be effected by their lack of well being and the fact that their *BASIC *needs are met while their owners are away in Hawaii for the month does not help the horses brain.

The very same could be true for the horse that is left outside 24/7 and did not have shelter in the winter or proper food or companionship.

The point is that horses don't just wake up in the morning and say "gosh,I am feeling like biting and kick some humans today".
There is a reason and most of the reason that I have found by dealing with this type of horse for many years is caused by humans.
Humans place horses into positions that are not always comfortable for the horse.....*MENTALLY*.
Their brain can't process and it shuts down worse than midterm week.
They are thrown into panic and are not given a way out,soooo they act out as it is the only option that they might have.

The handlers job is to give them a safe option where they can learn and not feel the panic.
Biting,kicking, rearing,and bolting are in many cases(not all) caused by stress!


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Yes Marecare, yes

Without stimulation horses are only half alive.
I go to my mare's barn each morning & around the same time.
She hears the car, she whinnies
I give her her breakfast
I check her over
I change her rugs.
We have a little chat. Yes I talk to her.
I put her out
She looks at me, she looks round the field. She canters off.
Later I go back.
She comes back to the gate
I collect her from the field.
I play with her one way or another for an hour maybe two. I do something, anything, whatever - but together.
I put her back in the field or the stable.
I tuck her up as it gets dark.
I make her feel secure.
She is a creature. She has a brain. She is not a machine
She needs to know I care.
She needs to feel secure. 
She needs a routine.
Without stimulation, she is almost asleep.
Without activity, she is wasting her day. 
She is spending her life. In years less than mine.
In this respect, she resembles my dog - waiting at home till I return.
Until then she is in limbo land.
She is not just a dumb horse. She is intelligent. She is sensitive
She is only lifeless when I leave her in her cage.

and as I have written before:
"In being a caring owner, I am my horse's gaoler" in Horse Training last post 10-4-2009.

A healthy, well fed, warm, safe, sheltered, convict is a prisoner.
So is my intelligent, sensitive horse if I don't keep company with her.

Because I took her on, I have a responsibility to her and not just to pay the bills. 
She wants to be touched.
She wants to be groomed
She wants to be ridden
She wants to feel free.
She wants company.

And if I don't give her stimulation she'll get bored and mischievous. 

But in return, she makes me feel needed. 

B G


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## G and K's Mom (Jan 11, 2008)

Marecare said:


> No you don't and you are not even close.
> 
> *Behavior* is strongly influenced by the environmental factors the the horse lives in and those factors* MAY* effect the attitude of the horse as much as a physical pain.
> 
> ...


Yes, yes, yes.......

I went through this this past fall with Max, the rescue we have. All spring and summer I had been working with him as he was pretty much feral. Then at the end of Sept it was like he snapped. He had been an absolute dream for 6 months, sure there were stumbling blocks where he was confused by what I was asking, but we worked through each obstacle. 

Then one day he threatened to charge me. He only took one step towards me but his intention was clear. We have since gotten him over this, I hope, we'll see come spring, but where did it come from? Did I push him too much in a short time? Did I ask things of him that his mind was just not ready for? Was I in such a hurry to have him do all the things a horse should know how to do that I didn't read the signs that he was on overload? 

It could be yes to all of the above, it could also be that he's coming into his own now that he's not starved he going to see what he can get away with. Either way it was a wake up call for me. Their hearts may be forgiving and trusting but their minds can be very fragile.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

G and K's Mom said:


> Yes, yes, yes.......
> 
> I went through this this past fall with Max, the rescue we have. All spring and summer I had been working with him as he was pretty much feral. Then at the end of Sept it was like he snapped. He had been an absolute dream for 6 months, sure there were stumbling blocks where he was confused by what I was asking, but we worked through each obstacle.
> 
> ...



*Very Important information* for people working with horses with "History".

It may not make sense to you from your outlook,but it makes sense to the horse and that is what needs to be worked on.
The handlers job is to find a way for the horse to learn and understand the conditions around him and to do that the horse learns best when physically and *mentally* comfortable.

Think of a mentally ill person trying to go to school and go to the same classes that you are in.
This person suffers from fear of crowds or being put on the spot with questions or even the ability to interact with other.

The end result could be tragic.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

You are very judgmental in a blanket sort of way of how others keep their horses.

I have met many a great horse who lived 24/7 in a 10x10 stall that were very content with their life. I have met more than one who truly hated being outside. 

Bottom line is horses are individuals and have individual training requirements and not matter how much you want to say that all horses fit into the square peg (must be trained a certain way, must be kept a certain way, etc) it is not the case.


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## G and K's Mom (Jan 11, 2008)

Alwaysbehind said:


> You are very judgmental in a blanket sort of way of how others keep their horses.
> 
> I have met many a great horse who lived 24/7 in a 10x10 stall that were very content with their life. I have met more than one who truly hated being outside.
> 
> Bottom line is horses are individuals and have individual training requirements and not matter how much you want to say that all horses fit into the square peg (must be trained a certain way, must be kept a certain way, etc) it is not the case.


Um, I'm not reading this at all in any of his posts. I would suggest you re-read. What I'm reading is that the horse could be kept in or out 24/7, whatever they prefer, but if his emotional needs are not being met it won't matter, your going to start having problems.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> I have met many a great horse who lived 24/7 in a 10x10 stall that were very content with their life.
> .


 
I don't believe that at all.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

You can not believe me all day long. But really.... There are lots of horses that do not fit into the perfect cookie cutter that people want to put them into.


Lovely packer mare that loves her job and hates hates hates being turned out. No amount of coverings, bug spray or the like convinces her she is not going to die when turned out. Riding outside is fine. Hand grazing outside is fine. Turned out (even with other horses) is most certainly not OK.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> You are very judgmental in a blanket sort of way of how others keep their horses.
> 
> I have met many a great horse who lived 24/7 in a 10x10 stall that were very content with their life. I have met more than one who truly hated being outside.
> 
> Bottom line is horses are individuals and have individual training requirements and not matter how much you want to say that all horses fit into the square peg (must be trained a certain way, must be kept a certain way, etc) it is not the case.


I don't think that Marecare was saying that stalls are bad or that no stall is bad. He is saying what you are saying, that horses have indidvidual requirements. What he is also saying I think, is that there are people who get it wrong. Sometimes thoughtlessly or sometimes through lack of choice. A horse that is kept in a stall 24/7 and isn't able to deal with it's incarceration will probably become a "problem horse", a horse in the same situation which enjoys the safety of confinement probably won't. Same situation two different horses, different result ie one goes mad, one relaxes and enjoys being waited on.

The point is that people and how they choose to treat/keep horses whether it be to confine, neglect, over stimulate, ignore completely, whatever their horses is the reason that most problems occur in horses. Now I know that I am going to be jumped on by people who are perfect horse owners (like myself LOL). I am not laying blame or pointing fingers at anyone (Riosdad) or suggesting that anyone on this forum is guilty in anyway shape or form of horse abuse. I am just suggesting that we can all be guilty of doing what WE think is best for our horses and not considering what the horse actually wants. 

My case in point is that over the winter Phoenix loves to be covered. As soon as the weather started to warm up this spring she started to become resistant to having her cover on. Instead of coming to me when I walked into her paddock carrying her cover she started to turn her back on me with her ears, not pinned but back. I had the choice of making an issue out of putting her cover on Because I Said So or letting her choose to be uncovered. She is now uncovered, the weather is warmer and very humid and wet. I personnaly would prefer her to be covered but she wants to be damp (and it must get pretty clammy under a cover at the mo so no wonder she doesn't like it)so I let her. It is not something that is worth a disciplinary hearing.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

I think that is VERY well put Kiwigirl.

All I am trying to suggest is that *Some* people drive their horse crazy.

I don't know the particulars of any of the horse on this forum and I don't even know if this applies to anyone here,but I have seen it in person many times.
I just suggest that if Your horse is acting out,then his personal needs(mental as well as physical) may not be fully met.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> I don't believe that at all.


I'm with you 100%, Kevin.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

I have never met a happy horse who is in 24/7. If she hates being outside, at least turnout in the indoor to keep her circulation going and her mind stimulated. Horses that are lame or have shoe troubles sometimes get turned out in our indoor to play, as long as they aren't hurting themselves


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## 5cuetrain (Dec 11, 2009)

If you do not gain a mutual respect with your horse you have nothing! There is no place for anger in horse training period. There are many methods to gain respect but they all require that both participants--horse and human--keep their emotions under control. Make it easy to do the right thing and difficult to do the wrong--without emotions!!--be consistant in your actions and things will get better.


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

Got to love these threads.....


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## Loosewolf (Oct 31, 2008)

I once dealt with a stallion with a very bad attitude towards me. One fine day, while I was turning the group out, I was too close to his stall, and he bit and held my shoulder. I yelled, made a heavy (painful!) commotion, and the only way out, was to punch him straight in the cheek. He let go, staggered back a foot or two, but I felt terrible!. Violence is not my 1st choice, EVER!!
The moral I take from that is this. I NEVER EVER use force to get the job done.
But if my life is being threatened, the bets are all off!
Fortunately, I still have my shoulder... 

Only the FORCE NECESSARY to achieve the goal,and no more... Not a story I am proud of but, that was 20 years ago, I am proud to say I have not had to raise my hand since...


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Anger, carrot & stick/Emotion Bribe & Tool. Six very emotive words attracting over 2600 visits and 180 posts - that is a lot of visitors. 
The debate swung back and forth and indeed still runs be it slowly. Opinions presented swung from right to left and occasionally things got a bit heated. But it was a undoubtedly a good debate.
There we were discussing emotions as present in people. I posted a new thread recently which raises the question of emotions in horses. Further down the line I plan to question how we do and might manipulate those emotive feelings in a horse to direct the animal - instead of relying constantly on the threat of pain or discomfort.
Personally I am inclined to think that maybe we rely too much on discouragement and not enough on encouragement.
But visit the other thread : Which emotions are present in horses? in Horse Training.

B G


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Loosewolf said:


> he bit and held my shoulder. I yelled, made a heavy (painful!) commotion, and the only way out, was to punch him straight in the cheek. He let go, staggered back a foot or two, but I felt terrible!. ...


He staggered back a foot? Come on. You are not powerful enough to stagger a horse with your fist. Second if a horsee has a hold of you you are going to be in major pain, they can far outbite a dog and will do major damage.

I remember something that happened to my father a long time ago. He was walking past my stallion and he lashed out and grabbed my dads sleeve. He happened to have a metal gallon measure in his hand, he was dishing out grain and he just swung that metal container straight into that guys face as hard as he could.
Funny but then and there that stallion quit biting.
Yes force is required or you end up with horses like you got.


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## Loosewolf (Oct 31, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> He staggered back a foot? Come on. You are not powerful enough to stagger a horse with your fist. Second if a horsee has a hold of you you are going to be in major pain, they can far outbite a dog and will do major damage..


I apologize, I forgot you were present when this happened..
You sir, after reading you biting diatribe on many a post people have made, make me feel as if it safe to say anything... 
But I won't continue my thoughts, just my sorrow we are not all you...
I've nothing further to add... 
as I am sure you will find fault with this as well


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

> He staggered back a foot? Come on. You are not powerful enough to stagger a horse with your fist.


I gave a good whack to a 17.2 hand WB whose owner never laid a hand on him. He whacked me and I hit back. I'm under 100lbs and smacked, not punched, yet he "staggered" back a good 4 yards before staring at me with huge eyes, *shocked* that I hit back. So yes, some horses do stagger when they are physically reprimanded, if they are not used to it.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

Loosewolf said:


> He let go, staggered back a foot or two, but I felt terrible!.





RiosDad said:


> He staggered back a foot? Come on. You are not powerful enough to stagger a horse with your fist.


i think you both have different opinions on a horses staggering. and no offence but i thought the same thing as riosdad when i read it. its not possible. you would really have to break your hand to atleast make a slight staggering effect there.....

but i think that your version of staggering is more or less he jumped back, or backed off slowly. i think wiht riosdad (atleast with me but i think hes on the same page) staggering is like in boxing when youre almost knocked out after a good hit, your grogey, cant really see, have no real balance... ya look drunk! and the only time i have seen a horse this way is my mare who reared up and broke her nose on the top of her stall door, she came back down had her head hung low, shaking it very slowly side to side-eyes closed, and couldnt really walk. 

so in order to make a horse stagger in the way i think of it, not possible by human force with a hand, but make them back off and jump back, yes.


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## heyycutter (Sep 26, 2009)

i have an ex-stallion who can get aggressive and dangerous around other geldings, so i have to be alittle harsher then i would with other horses. when he tries to bite ill wack him in the mouth hard enough to get the message across but not enough to hurt. if im riding, ill hit him in the shoulder with my whip if he tries to go after another gelding to get him to listen. i also yell at him if nessacary to get him to pay attention to me
my horse is also a very large built 13 y/o qh. id do something else with a smaller horse.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

How is debating Loosewolf over his comment any way called for or related? Neither of you were there. I am sure he did not mean how you two feel it should be taken - move on. He hit/horse staggered. No need to murder the guy for using a choice of words you don't approve of and according to him.... Neither of you were there? 
Sorry these types of comments that turn into debate towards people irritate me and they are totally irrelevant.


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## Loosewolf (Oct 31, 2008)

I have found this (and most forums in general) to be wastes of time...

Unfortunately, this is why this will be the last post I will have, for I just don't have any additional time to concern myself with this type of adolescent crapola.. 
I am just not enjoying it anymore, so I leave you all to yourselves.

If you look way back to why this stupid thread started , it certainly had nothing to do with where it went....

Be well, and take care...


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

Loosewolf said:


> I have found this (and most forums in general) to be wastes of time...
> 
> Unfortunately, this is why this will be the last post I will have, for I just don't have any additional time to concern myself with this type of adolescent crapola..
> I am just not enjoying it anymore, so I leave you all to yourselves.
> ...


then dont read these threads  they are trying keep up a friendly debate, ya sometiems we all need to take a breather and realize everyone has different opinions, but if you noticed, when this thread switched topic about horses and being stalled, alot of the people that were agrueing about the first topic, agreed and had the same opinion on the second!  i found that very weird, but it is never a waste of time to hear other peoples opinions as long as they are polite


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

As many of the previous threads show,Humans have a very hard time with the topic of anger and the expression of displeasure.
We get frustrated,want to yell,attack,or stomp away.
We (humans) are not the greatest example of restraint ourselves.
We expect perfect manners from a horse though!

If the manners are not there,then we resort to the same tactics that are unsuccessful between each other and expect a different result.
The history of humans is full of events that bear this out.
We have been picking up the hammer,whip,gun,or stick for a long time and I don't expect it to change anytime soon.


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## Juniper (May 4, 2007)

Ridergirl23, what a gorgeous picture of a horse in your profile! Is that your horse? What kind?


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

Juniper said:


> Ridergirl23, what a gorgeous picture of a horse in your profile! Is that your horse? What kind?


thanks  ya shes my new girl, her name is Rena shes a hanovarian/thoroughbred


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

Loosewolf said:


> I have found this (and most forums in general) to be wastes of time...
> 
> Unfortunately, this is why this will be the last post I will have, for I just don't have any additional time to concern myself with this type of adolescent crapola..
> I am just not enjoying it anymore, so I leave you all to yourselves.
> ...


because someone said you probably didnt hit a horse hard enough to make them stagger? wow... thats really sad. glad i didnt decide to leave a forum when someone didnt agree with me! :lol: i would have been gone the first day!


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## 5cuetrain (Dec 11, 2009)

Me thinks the debate is really about to whack or not to whack no?? This comes up in most threads that I read here--in lots of different ways but??

Maybe we should focus on these two specific ways to train:

1. Avoidance--does the horse do what we ask simply to avoid the consequences if they don't.

Or

2. Presure and release--the horse learns what we want when we release all presure and they will begin to look for the release to understand what we want??

And to Lonewolf--Seems that you have something to offer others. Up to you.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

In another thread which talks about emotion, I have asked if horses do seek to comply - for whatever reason?

Maybe we humans can speed up the process of training a horse if we hold over the horse some threat - be it a mild threat or a more serious threat. But is any threat necessary in some horses? Need we always be in a hurry?

Surely the first problem for the horse is to understand what we humans are asking for. I can see why a horse might have difficulty in performing a dressage movement in an elegant manner - after all the horse may already be making the movement but not in the manner desired by the handler/rider.

Surely our constant aim must be to make the horse seek to perform what we ask. We need the horse to want to please.

If the horse does want to please but is not quite sure of what is being asked of it - then presumably we can see why it will get agitated - with or without some threat.

Or does the horse sometimes reach a situation where it knows what to do but is physically uncomfortable doing it because it has pulled a muscle or suffers from a more serious long term disablement.

In some human remedial therapies, the therapist aims to constantly make minute improvements but relies on there being a lot of small improvements which in total add up to a significant improvement overall. If we throw out of the window our human time tables when dealing with horses can we not at the same time put the stick away?

Barry G


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

*DiDi meets Rolle Bin*


I’ve been writing a lot about the alternative way of asking a horse to obey and to do one’s bidding without the use of force or fear. Today the weather was lousy: it was cold, damp and miserable. My young friend Tara arrived and I asked if she wanted to ride DiDi - she agreed and together we tacked our Girlie up ready to be taken into the arena. Whilst she was being warmed up, I mucked out the stable. Suddenly I caught a glimpse of DiDi trotting around the arena full of impulsion and ‘on the bit‘. It was lovely to watch. I personally can’t get that position out of her - it calls for a very special seat. I am old and past it for such a sensitive horse. But DiDi will do it for young Tara nowadays, almost all the time.

It is accepted that DiDi is a skittish horse and as a result I am constantly trying to find ways of socialising her with all the objects which she thinks are alive and are going to go bump in the night. Plastic dustbins are to DiDi very much alive. They move; they go “clump“ when the lid closes , they smell and they talk with a funny squeaking noise. What’s more they fall over. Dustbins walk of their own accord whenever they are on a hill. They even have a big mouth which can gobble up even a 1200lb horse with a big butt - no problem. So, I got the plastic dustbin out and decided to ask the horse to bond with it. The Girlie was not to be worried and to be fair to her, initially she wasn’t - overmuch. We tugged this inanimate grey wheelie thingie (the dustbin) around the sandy arena - I even knocked it over a couple of times. We asked DiDi to get very close to it and she did. The only thing we had not yet done, was to get a second dustbin to place alongside the first in such a way as to leave a gap between them. That way we could get DIDI to go through the middle and knock both of them over. But, ‘No’ we are not quite ready for that - yet.

Suddenly, Tara’s Mum, Kay came on the scene and together we started to discuss the matter of fear, faith and trust. DiDi stood there alongside- motionless. Tara was aboard. Kay and I were standing there doing the talking. DiDi was listening. - pretending that she understood our words. Of course she did. That is the thing about her; she likes to be included. There‘s no fidgeting. She stands still with rider aboard and listens. What she actually understands remains to be seen but it is very evident that she knows the conversation is all about her, so she tries to understand. Undoubtedly DiDi has no fear of us, and she has faith in us but would she trust us when deliberately we were going to frighten her? It was agreed to pursue further the matter of the dustbin. We had been discussing whether for the horse the dustbin was indeed ‘alive‘ and it was agreed that DiDi had a vague reason to be upset. So I upped the stakes and put some rocks into the dustbin which made it sound very noisy as it was being dragged along by Kay over the rough surface. I moved away and watched DiDi from the side of the arena. She was starting to get a little upset but she was managing to hide her fears. I called out to her not to be afraid and she looked up. But she was still afraid. I could sense it. In the interim Tara had been sitting very confidently on her in a perfectly relaxed position. Her hands did not shorten the reins nor did she do anything to show tension, however, despite Tara’s calm presence on her back the noise from the dustbin being dragged about was disturbing DiDi. So I walked over to her. She was doing her best not to show her fears but if something else unexpected had happened at the same time, she would have been off like a startled jack rabbit. I reached out to the horse and touched her neck. All that was necessary were a few soft words of encouragement and a stroke. Her attention had been distracted. The dustbin was forgotten and was no longer a scary thing. 
All was now OK with DiDi. The horse was relaxed.

Now remember we could have approached this scenario in a completely different way. Tara had a short crop tucked into her boot. She could have shouted out something like “Walk on, (wretched) horse!” She could have tapped the horse on the shoulder. She could have said - “*Oh DiDi is just being difficult“. *But instead we gave the horse the benefit of the doubt. No whips, no loud voices, just a little consideration and some calm persistence. It worked. One small victory. There are more battles to come.

Tomorrow we are going to try getting DiDi to knock the dustbins over. Oh! my,
B G


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

That is a really nice story Barry. I have to be honest I almost envy you your sensitive horse. With a sensitive horse there is always a feeling of accomplishment when you get it to accept something alien and scary.

I have a horse at the other end of the spectrum. Absolutely fearless, bolshy, pushy, destructive and more. I spend a lot of my time growling at her, snapping my fingers, clapping my hands, waving my arms just to get her out of some new mischief she has managed to get herself into. This week she has broken into the pigpen by pushing her way through the little gate into it. She is far to big for the gate so has pushed the post it is hung on askew. Once in the pigpen she pushed the pigs home over and it was only when my husband heard a strange rythmic thudding noise that we clicked that something was amiss. Phoenix was at the end of the pen trying to get through the fence by kicking it repeatedly (that was the thuidding we heard).

Also this week Phoenix went missing. I have put her on the lawn to get her out of the paddock for a bit. When I got up the other morning I couldn't see my horse anywhere. Then I hear a series of crashes. They were coming from the double car shed at the bottom of the lawn. The shed was shut up, bar the normal door that opens onto the lawn. To access the shed through this door it requires you to go down two steps however there are no steps just two old concrete blocks instead and they are not that stable I might add. With the roller doors shut and only the single door open it is really quite dark in the car shed, especially first thing in the morning. I would never have expected a horse to be prepared to drop down through such a narrow entrance into darkness and then start pulling every thing off shelves! But there she was in the shed causing chaos!

Also this week we had a bit of wind. We have a trampoline on the lawn for our daughter. It is the sort that had all the safety netting, pads etc. We removed all the netting after the last big wind 'cause it picked up the tramp and threw it. So in this rather strong wind we had the padding on the tramp blowing up and down, making all sorts of loud and horrible slapping noises. Meanwhile Phoenix is on the lawn too, I was concerned about her with the noise, you know plastic flapping, potentially scary, all that stuff. I get up in the morning and discover Phoenix in the process of removing all the padding from the tramp. She had it in her mouth and she was giving it death. Bits of plastic and crap everywhere. Thanks horse!

A little bit of timidity would be nice *sigh*.

This is a picture of my horse trying to eat something off the kitchen bench after coming into the porch and pushing the back door open (which was slightly ajar).


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Kiwi Girl

It strikes me you have a character horse - perhaps you ought to be writing more stories about her entitled perhaps "Living with Phoenix"

I love that last photo - does she come indoors too?

Magic!

Barry

PS No beating with a stick is ever going to work on your Girlie.


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## Juniper (May 4, 2007)

I agree, you should write more stories. But I think you need some photographic "evidence" with the stories because that picture is great.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Kiwigirl.
You are very lucky to have such a character in your life.
Mares can have so much to say if they are not suppressed.
This is a direct reflection on who you are also!IMHO
I absolutely love this in a horse and enjoy every bit of their unique personality.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Thanks for all your kind words. Phoenix is a very special animal but I can't take any credit for that, it's the way she is.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

By the way Barry, YES! Given half a chance Phoenix would be in the house, quite happily. Unfortunately we live in a very small wooden cottage with old wooden floors which quite frankly, I don't think would hold her wieght. So have had to draw the line at her coming in the house. She is allowed to lean in as far as she can but no hooves on wood is the rule.

This is a pic af Phoenix and I in the shed. I do stainless engineering, lots of loud noises, powertools and hammering, not to mention the stereo up full noise. I don't let her hang around with me in there too much because of the noise and she definitely has to leave when I am welding. But she just likes to hang out with me.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Kiwi .
Magic Magic - you just have to breed from The Phoenix - by a very, very, carefully selected stallion. 

My wife had a Welsh D Cob called Christopher, who came with a champion show class pedigree to die for for. He was related to many of the famous champions in the Welsh cob book. He was super intelligent and very playful with humans. He "floated" at the extended trot. He didn't approach Phoenix's lifestyle but there again we did not quite have your setup. Neither did we have the experience to bring his character out. 

At the time we lived in up market Surrey and in that era (the early 1980s) lines between horses and humans were carefully drawn.
You are highlighting with your photos a point I often try to make that some horses have the capacity to bond much closer with humans that normally they are allowed to. We humans draw the lines and impose on some horses, restrictions which maybe are not necessary.

What is "The Phoenix" (I think she deserves the prefix) like to ride?
I note you ride her Western.
Presumably you have had her since a foal?

I'd love to meet her , but halfway round the world is a long way to travel
so you will have to paint a picture with words & photos.

Barry


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

*The Phoenix - a thought provoking mare.*​The base line of this thread is all about two distinct approaches to bringing up horses either by the carrot or the stick and the unacceptable impact of chastising a horse when angry. Reading about Kiwi Girl’s The Phoenix brought memories flooding back to me of my wife’s Welsh Cob Christopher - himself a highly intelligent and playful cob.
 
I’d be working in his paddock and he’d come up and steal my tools. I’d be walking along and he would pinch my cap. Once he managed to crawl under a slip rail and thereby he escaped from his stable. He often raided the bird table for bird seed. Repeatedly he managed to take off his turnout rug which was secured from side to side and fore and aft. Christopher called for a particular kind of handling by his owner.

Sadly I for one was at that time unsuitable to ride him - quite simply I did not have the patience. In those days I was working hard in a harsh competitive world and I wanted, even demanded, that my horse be obedient. Riding was for me a weekend pursuit, as and when I was home from my travels. With hindsight it was my loss but someone had to work to pay the bills. 

Christopher had a mind of his own. As a riding horse for me he was a disaster. Once he startled at the sound of a chain saw - he could have jumped forwards backwards or to the left - instead he jumped to the right into a thorn bush. Later walking along a busy road he startled at a paper bag and jumped right into the path of a bus - with me still aboard. Thinking back, he would have picked up on my irritability and he would have been anxious whenever I was in the saddle. My own young Welsh Cob, Big Boy, was of different breed lines altogether, indeed, when putting the two cobs side by side, the outsider would have queried if they were of the same breed of horse. Christopher had the famous Tyhen Comet & Brenin Gwalia in his bloodlines whereas my colt Big Boy had the famous Nebo Black Magic & Dengie Mayday. Both colts were of prize winning stock, originally destined to be kept entire for breeding.

The point I am trying to make is that nowadays I as an older man can afford to approach horses in a different way. Even if I don’t have the physical capability I once had, I do now have as much time as I need and I have more experience. I certainly have more patience. I chose my present mare DiDi because of her conformation and her temperament. In the old days I looked for something flashy, obedient and fast. DiDi is not a Christopher, nor from what I have heard, a Phoenix either. She is however a very sensitive creature with a distinct personality of her own. As her owner it is my responsibility to get to know her and to work out how best to make her into a well mannered riding horse. There’s no standard method of getting the best out of a horse anymore than there is a standard rider or a standard personality for a horse. There are however some excellent guide books as to what might work and we should all read as many of them as we can in order to formulate our own ideas as to what we want to do with our horse.

My horse doesn’t have to win anything. She doesn’t have to jump higher than another nor does she have to run faster. She doesn’t even have to dance the light fantastic to music although I do want her to carry herself and myself efficiently and elegantly. Importantly I want her to enjoy her life in my care. There cannot be room in our time together for anger or the stick.

Like me, she only has one life.


Barry G


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

kiwigirl said:


> Thanks for all your kind words. Phoenix is a very special animal *but I can't take any credit for that, *it's the way she is.



I think you can take credit for allowing her to be with you and build that kind of relationship.
A lot of people have so much fear to do with this sort of thing.
Very nice pictures,keep them coming!


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

I agree! It shows that you have confidence in yourself to handle whatever situation she gets herself into! A lot of people do not have that - she is the way she is because of you and that is something you should take pride in. The photos are wonderful - MORE please!


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Horse Poor said:


> I agree! It shows that you have confidence in yourself to handle whatever situation she gets herself into! A lot of people do not have that - she is the way she is because of you and that is something you should take pride in. The photos are wonderful - MORE please!


I think alot of us have homes where a horse could not just walk up to the door. I have wide open lawns, busy highways at the end of the lane and it is just not feasable to have a horse loose on the property.
My doors wouldn't be accessible anyway with the porches and stairways.
It would be fun to live on a totally fenced in area with doors wide open for horses to just come and go as they please but just not practical.
My horses are behind good fences for their safety, not mine.
Some of use also have very expensive cars that I for one do not want a horse anywhere near.
No to have a horse coming and going from my life is just not going to happen no matter what horse it is.


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## Juniper (May 4, 2007)

I am so glad I decided to read this thread. That last picture of Phoenix made my day.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

This thread, the subject of which was _*anger & the stick or the carrot*_ is amazing in that it has aroused so much comment and counter comment in less than a month.

I started the thread on the 30th Nov partly because there was a similar thread running at the time which was getting out of hand but the subject was one which should be discussed - ie 
“What are the principles to be used when managing training and living with horses?”

Towards the middle of the month we had a warning from the Moderator who was justifiably saying that some of the posts were beyond the spirit of the Forum - which indeed they were. But the Thread went on from that warning and there was still to be a wide range of discussion - not just from American members but also those from Canada, Australia, and the UK. By my count there were 33 contributors who together made 211 posting. Some members became extremely active: 3 making together over one third of the posts and 9 making approx another third.

The thread in its entirety, with a little editing, would make a very good Guide to Horse Training because many shades of opinion were presented. It was also interesting to see that there was only a little gap between the ideas of the Western riders and the English riders but there again why should there be - after all the horse is the same animal. 

Even as I write this there have been 3914 viewers the majority of whom will not have made a written contribution.. I think it probable that the number of viewers will pass the 4000 mark.

To me, this is what the Horse Forum is all about. Many of us have already formulated our own concepts as to how we should handle our own horses but if we had cause to stop and reconsider our ideas then so be it. No two horses are the same, but they do bear a remarkable similarity. As for reaching out across the world to other horse riders who were born into a different national tradition then that must be a bonus. I personally wish we had some Asian members of the Forum but for the time being they will have to be English speakers and writers.

The problem now is to think of another subject that can give cause for those fresh posters to this thread who have put finger to keyboard for the first time. 

_*What topic is going to encourage you all to contribute again?*_

Barry G


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

What are you talking about Barry?
I am just getting warmed up with this topic.
I have had one hand tied behind my back jut to make it fair.Ha!


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Well Marecare - we've got to get the 4000th viewer and no one has written anything since Juniper on the 19th - let alone anything controversial. It has been very quiet. 
They must be all filled with the festive "spirit".

What about no 34? 

Happy Christmas to you and yours.

Barry


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Merry Christmas guys! It is interesting Barry because another thread has gone up, what do you consider to be abuse? (something like that) which has kind of subverted a lot of attention. I think that the majority of forum writers are interested in the welfare of their horses and infact of all horses. I know that I have read various threads which ultimately come down to 'to hit the horse or not to hit'. I have read things that people consider to be an abusive action which infact I have done myself. Perfect example was one forum member commented that to chase a horse with a quad bike is abusive however I have chased Phoenix with a quad bike. When I state it like that it sounds awful but in reality it wasn't, there was no revving motors, horse's eyes bulging, screaming in terror, in a mad state of absolute mad panic. There was me having to use the bike in order to put enough pressure on her to teach her that running away from me is a mistake. It was a good plan, it worked for my horse who is still her normal confident self (overly) - would I do it with another type of horse, no absolutely not.

Another topic is hitting. I think the reality is that on this forum there are very few people who actually hit a horse in a manner that is aggressive or intended to hurt. I myself have just started to carry a dressage whip, I am finding it very useful though I know I have not inflicted any pain with it. I began to have trouble with my horses incessant eating so I looked for solutions. Solutions came in two forms, either I give my horse a smack or I use a mechanical/tie down device. My horse is a very direct thinking horse, want to get to other side of fence - solution, walk through fence. I borrowed a Daisy Chain (have I got the name correct Barry?) two days ago to see if that would stop the eating impetus. Prior to this test I had ridden with my new dressage whip which solved the problem nicely with two little smacks on the bum. Anyway Phoenix cottoned on to the fact that I didn't have my stick and immediately decided that she could eat. As soon as she felt resistance she reverted true to her normal self and leaned against it. She ended up in the same position as when I loop the reins over my saddle horn so she can't reach the grass. This position is reaching for grass with as much weight as she can manage on the restraint, lips stretching (making pup pup noises), eyes closed with an I'm going to do this all day look on her face. So focused on getting through that restraint that she ignores all other commands to move. Ultimately it has proved to be less painful for all concerned if I smack my horse on the bum. Have I hit every horse I have ever ridden? Well I have just bought my first whip in 30 years of horse riding, so the answer to this question is no.

My point (and I do have one) is that we all do the best we can with what we know and with the nature of the horse that we deal with. I truly believe that as horse owners it is our duty to be open to learning as many ways of horsemanship as possible. A common statement on this forum is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. I believe we owe it to our horses to be flexible, open minded and prepared to admit when something we are doing is not working. Not every horse will respond to the same thing the same way. It is too easy to keep doing the same thing and then get frustrated with the horse because it doesn't respond correctly. So we are not sending the wrong sort of messages, we simply have the wrong type of horse. The thing is there are so many different type of horses so we need to have lots of different ways to communicate our wants.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I think what it all comes down to is that for most people it's not so much the carrot _or_ the stick but more the carrot _and_ the stick. I rarely strike a horse but when I do I want it to hurt. I don't want to peck at a horse about a behavior. If I want it to stop I want it know. 

I use the same kind of philosophy with my kids. I have 3 boys and the older two know that if I warn them that they will get a spanking if a behavior doesn't stop it had better stop soon or they will get a spanking. I will not spank when I am angry. Tonight at our family christmas party I had a confirmation that this works. My wifes cousin has two boys almost the same age as mine and they have never had a spanking. Those kids were sassy to everyone and jumping on the furniture and being far to wild. My kids were well behaved and respectful but had every bit as much fun as thier cousins. I made sure to tell my kids how proud I was of them.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

There is something to learn from this thread - but what I am not sure.
As of this moment there have been 5397 viewers - including 124 between the 8th March to the 14th
March yet the last posting was Kevin's on Christmas Day
5397 is an amazing number for a thread in Horse Training.
What is the attraction Guys & Dolls - the subject,
the arguments, the viewpoints, the contributors ???

Tell me more.


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## LoveStory10 (Oct 31, 2009)

Lol, Im almost afraid to post...

My horses know I have my space... They know what I expect of them, when I expect it. My gelding Bishop once bit a little girl while she was petting him, he bit her really hard. I gave him a HARD smack... He's hasnt bit since. My mare Silver had a bad habit of bolting as soon as the bridle was off. She dislocated my shoulder alot of times. I fixed that by pretending to take it off, and when she tried to bolt a loud "NO" and/or a smack. 

I smack them if their being REALLY naughty, or dangerous. Thats my way of doing things, I never abuse them or hurt them without cause though


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

Barry Godden said:


> There is something to learn from this thread - but what I am not sure.
> As of this moment there have been 5397 viewers - including 124 between the 8th March to the 14th
> March yet the last posting was Kevin's on Christmas Day
> 5397 is an amazing number for a thread in Horse Training.
> ...


Not sure what other people have come back to see in this thread, or why.

Maybe the recent drama on this forum, as well as other horse-related forums (involving the video of Linda Parelli whacking a half-blind horse in the face using the metal lead clip, the slack of the training line, and her bare hand) made people curious if it was discussed here?


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

Barry Godden said:


> There is something to learn from this thread - but what I am not sure.
> As of this moment there have been 5397 viewers - including 124 between the 8th March to the 14th
> March yet the last posting was Kevin's on Christmas Day
> 5397 is an amazing number for a thread in Horse Training.
> ...


The arguments and contributers :lol:


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## sandy2u1 (May 7, 2008)

I have really learned a lot from all the posts on this thread. While your threads about training vary greatly, I think everyone who has posted are very humane horse people. I am forever working at maintaining the trust I have with my horse and teaching him something at the same time. I'm glad to know that there are so many different ways to train a horse. We all have horses with different personalities and needs. I think it just boils down to knowing your horse and what he needs. 

The only opinion I have is that I don't think it is good for a horse to be stalled all the time. My own horse's personality visibly changes in just one day of being in the stall and by day 3 I wouldn't dare ride him. Most of the time he stays out, unless the weather is really really bad. He does always want to come in the evenings (because it's feeding time), but given the choice he would stay outside.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

I am actively seeking a real rank sob to train this summer for a project.
I want a horse that has been branded "VERY DANGEROUS".

The idea is to find a horse that does NOT have pain issues and only behavior problems (tough chore) and gentle it *WITHOUT hitting.
*
I have done this many times before but have not filmed it or taken pictures.
Actually I thought it was pretty common and not even noteworthy.

The horse should have had several "Trainers" that have given up on the horse and have recommended euth. or at least a rider that states that the horse is not ride-able.

I don't care about the breed but do want a complete history of the horse.

I am in Northern California at a zip code of 94567


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

That sounds like a fun job Marecare. You should probably go to your nearest pony club. Look for the biggest warmblood pummeling the smallest twelve year old into the ground, surrounded by "experienced horse people" telling the kid to lay into it with a whip. Failing that go to an english equestrian show and look for the horse with the biggest bit and the tightest tie downs, ridden by the most ham fisted rider - you will recognize it as the horse that is already lathered, prancing like a mad thing with rolling eyes - and it hasn't been in the show ring yet. Good luck!


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Marecare
I would not say a 'fun' job but a worthwhile one. Recorded on a daily basis , and photographed throughout the process it could make a good book so long as you can find a publisher.

Getting a complete history of a "s.o.b" might be difficult though - the era when the horse picked up its aggression towards humans won't necessarily have been recorded. Such humans don't keep records.

But what is a fair test for the "finished project" = "the gentled horse" to comply with?

B


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

That is really one of the problems Barry.

As improvement occurred there would be people that said that it did not or that the behavior was not really gone or that it was not really there in the first place or that it would reoccur and need to be dealt with harshly to suppress it for good.

There would be people that would call BS and say that the handler hit the horse behind the scenes to achieve the end results.

You would almost have to have a live web cam follow the handler around all day to show every aspect of the training.
Then you would have the conspiracy people (you know the one's that said that we didn't really land on the moon)say that the video had been altered to make the handler look good.

When you hit to solve problems in your daily life you tend to cling to the idea as a valid tool and don't want to give it up.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I would be interested to read about it and I hope you don't let the critics get to you.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Marecare 
- do you think you can erase the bad memories from a horse that has gone so far as to be aggressive towards humans?

If so, do you think you can transfer the relationship you might acquire to a new owner?

The line to draw when rehabiltating an 's.o.b' is very fine and I would expect the successful outcome to be a one to one relationship - therapist to horse. 
How can you transfer that relationship to a third party human?
A horse is like an elephant - it never forgets.

Barry


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Well we broke the bank today 23/10/ 2010 - 6001 viewers as I write this post.
Who would have thought it?


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

The viewing of this thread continues, despite the fact that there have been no new posts to it for a couple of months almost. The viewer number is about to reach 7000 - an incredible number on a forum where 3000 viewers is seen to be unusual. 30 new viewers came on last night.

If the subject attracts this amount of interest then perhaps something could be done about editing the posts and combining them into a more easy to read format. 

Any suggestions anybody?

Barry G


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

This has been one of my favorite threads. I can't do it because I don't know how, but if the unneeded posts and some of the nasty ones (although I don't remember it getting too nasty) were deleted it might make the thread a little more reader friendly. There are some great pieces of advice and thought provoking arguments in this thread.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I want to know where Marecare is, I haven't seen him around for a while and I miss him. I am hoping that he has found the horse he is going to make an example of so we can all learn something.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Interestingly, if you do a google search and type: "anger and the matter of the carrot or the stick" - you are transferred to the thread directly.

The other oddity is that 17 or so posts seem to have disappeared overnight - we've
gone back from 230.

What's going on?
B G


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

The viewer count has exceeded 7000 - as I write this it is up to 7130 - now where did those 130 plus viewers come from - in one night?

There must be something going on that we do not know about.
Presumably one of the Moderators might have a clue - are you there Guys?

B G


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## 3neighs (Jul 15, 2008)

Barry, some of the unnecessary posts have been weeded out.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

kiwigirl said:


> I want to know where Marecare is, I haven't seen him around for a while and I miss him. I am hoping that he has found the horse he is going to make an example of so we can all learn something.



Thank you for thinking of me Kiwigirl.
I am still reading and waiting for a good topic to sink my comments into...Ha!

The topic is a very good one and one that will be debated for a very long time to come.
I personally grew up in an environment of "Force"and the idea of using it as a tool.
The tool was used on me and other family members and so we passed it on and the cycle continued.
It tool many year to learn that it takes much greater strength and composure to *NOT *use force and to still have the same outcome or even........better.

There will always be people that solve problems with excesses.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

My hobby is not only to ride on and play with horses but it is also to write about them. I regularly review the responses to my writing. It was on 30th Nov 2009 that I started this thread : “*Anger and the matter of the carrot or the stick*“. The thread appears to have struck a chord with viewers and the reading of it has gone on long after the last article, No 217, was posted s by Marecare on the 5th March 2010. As I write this note the number of viewers has passed 9420 and amazingly continues to rise, sixteen months after the last post to the thread There are very few threads which attract this level of readership. I can’t help but wonder where all these anonymous readers come from and why do they continually revert to this thread ? 

It was not merely my own 29 posts which brought about the interest*. Marecare *in particular contributed 36 of the responses including no 217, the last of the period. Reading over his posts, I don‘t see much difference in the way he and I approach horses, except that he has had heaps more experience than myself. I would have loved to have spent some time watching him at work with his horses.


_If you are reading *Marecare, *what I’d be interested to know if you found your ‘project’ horse mentioned in post 204 namely the one messed up by humans. We have brought a couple of neglected horses on our yard this year which really needed some tender loving care. They have since come right and two of them have been passed on to carefully selected owners. _


Nine other members including regular posters such as: kevinshorses, kitten val, lillie, kiwi girl, Gand K’s and even plain talking Riosdad chipped in with words of horsemasterly wisdom and posted their views on 127 posts between them. Not many subjects can draw that much attention from those illustrious members. 

Strangely, even between Forum members, the thread had induced significant. friction. Why? 

Perhaps we should consider why _The Carrot or the stick _is a very fundamental issue when dealing with horses. 

As an example, when alone and we meet with a horse new to us, an important decision has to be made as to how to approach the animal for the first time. Everything begins with any previously acquired knowledge of the animal; then follows a visual appraisal from a distance of its temperament generally and an assessment of its mood at the time of coming together. A horse standing still and relaxed is a very different prospect from one pacing up and down, thrashing its tail about, with ears pricked to the sky.

At the moment of human and horse coming together, the horse has to make its own decision about the human ie whether to stand or to move back or even to canter off. 

Whenever a horse stands unfettered and the aim is to lead it away, then first it must be caught. In the act of putting a halter over the horse’s head or a rope around its neck, the human becomes vulnerable. The human must stand close with arms raised. That is when the horse learns whether the human is friend or foe since we humans give our own state of mind away by the steadiness of our hand, the smell of our breath and our body language. How such a situation is approached is influenced by experience and whether one’s belief is in _the stick or the carrot. _The question arises as to whether the human is generally cautious of, or at ease in the presence of, horses.

Any offer by the human of a carrot held in an open hand is to the horse a sign of trust. A hesitant approach with a whip or rope in one hand and a halter in the other is a much more aggressive scenario for the horse and is an indication to the animal of mistrust on the part of the human. 

Everything with horses starts with the first meeting. Horses have long memories and they aren‘t stupid. 

Perhaps that is why this issue is so important and deserves regular reconsideration ????


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

Barry Godden said:


> ...The question arises as to whether the human is generally cautious of, or at ease in the presence of, horses....


Barry, in my experience, this line sums it all up.

Many years ago, my mentor, a wonderful horse woman, told me that my biggest strengths were patience and lack of fear around horses. I was not brought up around horses, have no idea why I've never feared them, and
I openly admit that I'm a 'carrot person' that enjoys a lot of horse contact and handling resulting in well behaved and social mares.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Barry Godden said:


> “*Anger and the matter of the carrot or the stick*“. I can’t help but wonder where all these anonymous readers come from and why do they continually revert to this thread ?


Barry I would hazard a guess that its the combination of carrot and stick. Probably getting a load of hits from Google with Parelli fans, especially given the couple of episodes with PP's poor handling that hit You Tube so hard.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

It is a wonderful topic Barry and one that will continue to be talked about for many years to come.

Trust is within us and a worthy goal.


So many expect trust but have such a hard time giving it.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi Barry and all,

This is a really good thread.

I am in kind of a catch-22 myself. With my older horses, I have a very trusting, relaxed relationship. We trail ride and they rarely challenge my authority (if ever) and everything is peaceful and relaxing. I enjoy the time with them and I hope they enjoy the time with me.

I now have a yearling that was born at my place to my mare who was pregnant when I bought her. I have never raised a foal, but I was gleeful at the chance as it was always a dream of mine. Every other horse I have ever owned has been an adult and pretty well trained.

The colt (now gelding) is playful and challenging every step of the way. Sure, he leads, ties, has his feet trimmed, etc. but he seems to think life is a game and I have worked hard to overcome his nippy, pushy ways. He still nips on occasion but we have been working hard on it. He knows he will get smack with a whip or whatever I have in my hand if he dares try it.

So I find me relationship with him to be frustrating, definitely not relaxing, and I find myself angry much of the time I work with him. My two adult actually get scared of me when I am working with the baby, but baby is undaunted! So what to do when you can't have that relaxing, trusting relationship with a horse? When they won't let you give them the benefit of the doubt because they will walk all over you if they do?

Some say I am not making a big enough impression if he is still acting dominant. Others say he's a baby and leave him alone for a while to grow up. Unfortunately I don't have a pasture to turn him out in to forget about him for a while.

So I know it's all up to ME. I've had a trainer work with us and he respects the trainer. He respects my friend. It's just ME. Anyway, this is just a vent more than anything. 

But I wish I could use the carrot because I hate always using the stick! I do not have horses to be tormented on a daily basis with a colt who enjoys pushing my buttons. Sigh! :evil:


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## pintophile (May 18, 2011)

Inspired by kiwigirl's pictures a few pages back, here's some pictures of one of my mares when she took an adventure into the basement. My mom was getting the basement renovated and when a couple of the workers were down there and saw me riding by the door, they told me to bring her on in.

She's followed me up the stone steps and onto the deck a number of times. Nearly came in the front door, too, before my mom had a fit and told me to: "Get that &*$%^%@! horse off my new steps!" :lol:


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Pintophile that is so funny. I to struggle with a horse that feels it is unfair that everyone (this being the cats, dogs and people) gets to be inside the house and she doesn't. I think that when we build a new house we will have to put a bedroom in for Phoenix!


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Kiwi
By what you write, Poenix is back in the pink - good

That was a marvellous job you did in nursing that horse.

We have a lot of fence wire in the UK and too often the horse gets caught up in it and then damages the tendons or becomes infected with gas gangrene.
Either way the horse pays the price. 

But it is good to hear that Phoenix didn't.

Barry


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Just yesterday my two horses --- both steady, both excellent in their ground work lessons --- had a terrifying experience. A line of people in the park nearby went on a parade, shaking rattles and banging tin drums. What started as a spook got out of hand. Horses below us, in the arena, got spooky too. Anxiety spread and built. It wasn't long before my younger one, the bravest and steadiest horse, freaked out and just "lost it." I am very calm in these situations, but my friend gets anxious, and I'm sure that didn't help.

So what do you do now? What happened to all the respect I thought we'd built? One horse always takes a little time to load after a trailer ride (she's perfect when just practicing) and after a couple of hours I got rough. I'm not good at it, but I learned something: in this case anyway, the violence of a VERY hard whip *got her attention*. And that made all the difference.

Neither anger nor punishment nor training nor trust nor alpha had anything to do with this; there just wasn't any other way to connect. (And I hope I never have to do this again!)


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Beling, there is always that moment.

I was once mounted on Joe out on a country hack up on a ridgetop. The path had narrowed and we were close, too close, to the very edge of a steep embankment. Suddenly Joe spotted something off to the left and he was freaking out - I never did find out what it was. All I knew was that he was backing up on the right side and towards the edge of the escarpment and I was on his back. If he had gone back further and over that edge we would both be dead meat.

When riding him in those days I always carried a short crop tucked in my boot. We had to go forwards there was no choice. I grabbed the crop and - forgve me O'Joe - I whacked him so hard on his butt that he shot forward as if coming out of the barrel of the gun. All I had to do then was to keep him pointed in a safer direction. I could not stop him until he got tired

Mea culpa, Mea culpa. Mea Culpa. Forgive me, I too have sinned.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Today, the viewers topped 10,000. Unbelievable. 
Marecare and I , together with all those other members who have contributed say: "*thanks for reading*".
Barry G

PS - I am sorely tempted to keep going.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Barry Godden said:


> Today, the viewers topped 10,000. Unbelievable.
> Marecare and I , together with all those other members who have contributed say: "*thanks for reading*".
> Barry G
> 
> PS - I am sorely tempted to keep going.



Please keep going Barry.

Much earlier in my life I was the first to reach for the stick with everything I attempted.
Actually I could better describe my attitude by stating that it really wasn't a stick I reached for, it was a hammer.

If I tried to fix a car or fix a relationship I always grabbed the same tool to accomplish it.

Through the struggle of life I became aware that all living things have their "Perfect Place".

In that place all things thrive and are easier to communicate with.
They are open to learning and are at peace.

BUT

You have to go to that place with them with the understanding that just because it is perfect for them does not mean that it is perfect for you.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

*It is all in a word - ANGER*

*Anger has no place when working with horses*

This thread is all about three key words in the riding and handling of horses: *Anger, Carrot, Stick*. 
In the world of horses each of these words has a specific meaning beyond their use in everyday language.

Let us first consider *‘Anger’*
Anger can be a very destructive emotion born out of fear, frustration, ignorance, impatience or intolerance. Anger can have the effect of provoking in a human, responses which inevitably lead to a breakdown in the relationship between horse and rider.

The impact of anger on the rider is not only on the conscious brain, over which the human has some degree of control, but anger also acts on the part of the brain over which we humans have little control. One of the roles of this sub-conscious brain is to activate the body’s protective responses to threats of danger. The responses are instantaneous and instinctive. If the horse shies or makes a sharp change of direction, the rider must adjust to the stresses created by the horse’s sudden movement even before the conscious brain has recorded that the horse has shied. It is similar scenario as when driving a car. In order to avoid a collision the driver might have pressed the brake pedal to stop the vehicle before the threat has been consciously recognized by the driver. Luckily with practice and experience the horse rider’s instinctive responses will sharpen and become more effective in enabling him or her to stay up in the saddle in times of stress or conflict with the horse. 

The horse rider’s conflict with the forces of mass, motion and gravity as defined by Newton will never go away. The ground waits patiently beneath the horse ready to receive the rider.

The problem with anger is that it tends to interfere with the reflexes of the sub-conscious brain . The angry rider’s mind will be diverted away from the immediate threat. Anger brings with it thoughts of retaliation. The human might curse or shout in order to relieve pent up anger or he may strike out at the horse in response. This reaction will upset the horse because the animal will not understand the reasoning behind it. The rider’s brain may respond more slowly because it is responding more to the anger rather than the need to take evasive action. 

In an unexpected and critical situation any loss of spontaneity can be disastrous and lead to the rider falling. Interestingly after the fall the rider who has experienced a sharp shie can rarely describe how exactly he or she compensated for the stresses involved and managed to stay in the saddle. The body’s response had been an instinctive reflex action. In most instances, the rider was merely relieved to have avoided a painful fall. Amazingly some riders then remember why they nearly fell. They become angry and punish the horse as if the horse could associate the punishment with the rider’s loss of dignity. Maybe after the accident the horse had wandered off to graze when suddenly the unseated rider reappeared only to whack the horse as punishment for discarding the rider. 

A competent rider will at all times ‘feel’ the horse. He or she must sense and keep contact with the mood of the animal. Yet again there is no room for anger to cloud the interpretation of the horse‘s behavior. When riding a sharp horse, the rider must concentrate without tensing up. A slight hesitation in a horse’s stride, the pricking of an ear, a tug on the bit, a movement of the neck - each move becomes a clue that the horse is about to spring a surprise. The rider must remain alert and be able to react to any unexpected action by the horse. Calling the horse names won’t help. 

We have been describing the effect of anger on the rider; we must also consider *the impact of the rider’s anger on the horse.* It is the rider’s constant role to hold at bay the latent fear in all horses. Tension in the animal can be reduced by a stroke on the neck, a word whispered in the ear, a slight relaxation of the pressure on the bit but any anger in the rider will negate this process and the horse will certainly sense tension in the rider.
An angry rider’s hands are coarser and less sensitive. 
The pressure on the bit becomes firmer rather than lighter. 
The reins are held shorter and more securely. 
The angry rider’s voice will change in pitch and will become strident, sharp, curt, and even coarse.
The rider’s posture will become rigid 

The grip of the legs and thighs around the horse’s belly will tighten. 
The joints i.e. the ankles, the knees, the hips will stiffen. 
A dab with the heels will become a jab or a kick.
The crop if carried will cease being a pointer and will become a cane.
The aids given by an angry rider will lack subtlety.

Instantly the sensitive horse will recognize the change in the rider’s mood and it fears will be aroused. This arousal will bring about a change in the horse‘s behavior, which will make the rider ‘angry‘. The wheel will have turned full circle. Anger interferes with the communication process between human and horse.

In my own riding career I confess to having experienced ’anger’ with my stubborn cob gelding. I used to believe that he was being lazy through stubbornness. He was frightened of nothing yet he would suddenly pretend to be frightened and he would shie. On such occasions, when I felt he was putting both of us at risk by his stupidity, I would get angry whereas I should have relaxed. But we all have to learn. However shouting at the animal, smacking it with a crop, forcibly jerking its head with the reins, kicking it in the ribs will solve little and certainly not the problem which lies deep within the horse’s psyche. Any anger in the rider will merely increase the horse‘s response to an anticipated fear when the rider should in fact be trying to do the exact opposite by trying to alleviating the horse‘s fears, be they real or imagined.

As for punishing a horse physically maybe be a sharp tap with the whip in order to bring home a message - well that is about as stupid a reaction by a rider as one can think of. 
A human cannot frighten a horse into NOT feeling frightened.

As horse riders we must ask ourselves if we believe a horse feels the emotion of anger. My personal belief is that the horse does not feel anger, rather it feels threatened and if cornered it will turn to aggression so as to protect itself. 

Undoubtedly there are occasionally scenarios where aggressive behavior in a horse towards a human i.e. biting or striking cannot be tolerated. If the handler becomes angry under such circumstances then it is best if possible to walk away and cool down. Even then physical force is to be avoided. A loud firm voice, an aggressive posture or even waving the arms can be enough to cause the horse to back off. The whip, the crop is there only as a last resort to keep the horse away from the handler If the aim with an aggressive horse is to pacify it, then it can’t be done by whacking the animal - you would merely be creating an enemy of a 600 kilo animal with a long memory.

Absolutely, anger has no place when dealing with horses.

Barry G


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