# can a horse recover from a twisted snaffle?



## saddleseat savvy (Feb 22, 2018)

My gelding was trained for years in a twisted snaffle. Since I bought him and have learned more about bit abuse, I really want to not use such a harsh bit. (He hasn't shown any signs of pain from it and is cleared by the vet btw). Anyway I read that some horses loose feeling in their mouths and can never feel again from these bits. Is that true and if so what can I do to make the transition easier? Also bit recommendations would be helpful!
xoxo
:faceshot:


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

If a horse and the rider are properly trained then a "harsh" bit isn't really a harsh bit. That being said, If your horse isn't showing any signs of being in pain or having been abused then I'm not sure recover is the right word. Can he ride in another bit? Sure, will he ride as well, maybe. Maybe not but you can work with him. 

To be honest though, if he's riding in a slow twist or a wire, whatever it is and your hands are gentle you aren't having to lug on him then switching him to a milder bit where you could potentially end up in a tug of war or a heavy hand to steer and guide him, then... you might not be doing him any favors. 

But to answer your question - sure - a horse can "recover" from a twisted snaffle.


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## ThoroughbredBug (Jan 18, 2017)

My first question would be "how does he currently ride in the twisted snaffle?" If he's soft, responsive, and it works well for him, you would probably be safe to transition down to a softer version of the snaffle. I prefer the french link loose ring. IMO this is about as gentle as it gets unless you want to go in a neck rope, no headgear. Even a lot of hackamores or bitless rigs use leverage and nose pressure. Most horses with more traditional training don't tend to prefer face leverage all of a sudden and will toss their heads or refuse to carry themselves as they normally would with the bit gone all of a sudden.

As for whether or not horses lose feeling due to a specific bit, I can't say. I'd be inclined to say lot of horses definitely learn to tolerate or ignore sharper/harsher bit cues without freaking out. It's just a matter of how they respect the bit and how soft they are to your cues. If he's responsive now, without hanging on the bit or gaping his mouth to avoid cues, you should be fine to put a softer snaffle in his mouth and he'll probably appreciate a more gentle mouthpiece without running away on you. If you know how, and have the tools, you could always just lunge in side reins with the new, softer bit. Or put him on the long lines for a bit of ground driving, just to test his responsiveness.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

My green hunter lady was ridden in a twisted snaffle + curb thing for hunting events specifically (can't remember the exact name but it wasn't a pelham, something leverage though from the picture tho I am no expert). The trader lady who sold her to me had put her in a french link d ring immediately. Yeah, it's been 5 months now. She's only recently in the last few weeks started to become light in the hand. She needed time to understand steering and obviously time to realise there was a bit in her mouth at all  But I had the guidance of very experienced people - I know that without them and their real-time instruction we would have had some bolts  Truth though: she responds more to my seat than my hands and it was so important relying on that more than the two bits of leather between my fingers. Good luck! Other ppl with more experience can offer a lot more advice but hope some insight helps <3


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

saddleseat savvy said:


> Anyway I read that some horses loose feeling in their mouths and can never feel again from these bits. Is that true and if so what can I do to make the transition easier?


My opinion is that this "old wives' tale" came from the impression that horses did not feel because they did not respond. Horses can feel pressure from bits and still push through the pressure. If a horse has been taught that hard pressure is required to stop, if you put them in a bit that applies less pressure, the horse will not stop even though they can feel that pressure.

I'm very skeptical that horses lose feeling in their mouth. Tongues heal very well, even after injuries. You can burn your tongue many times without losing any feeling in it. The bars and lips also seem unlikely to lose feeling. I've pushed on a horse's tongue that had healed after being cut severely by a bit, and the horse seemed to still feel, if anything it seemed like he was more tender there than normal. Scar tissue can be more fragile and tender than normal tissue even.

You will probably have to experiment to see what type of bit the horse responds to, and he will probably need some retraining to reinforce stopping on lighter cues. Even with retraining, a horse that has run through a bit will always remember it is possible to do so. Sometimes using something completely different like a hackamore or a smooth curb with a chain can be more effective.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

So, a horse_ can_ lose some sensitivity from where a bit sits in the mouth and the tug-o-war that some riders do with the reins...
This "heavy-handedness" builds callouses in the mouth, yes.
Callouses just like we build on our hands, feet and body parts diminish some feeling but they also offer great protection to body parts that otherwise would be so sensitive and sore great pain would result...

So your idea that this particular bit is harsh actually will be mostly up to you, as the rider, if you toughen the mouth from being to heavy-handed or will your horse learn you have a feather-lite touch and soft hands of communication.
That is something _the rider determines_ when handling the horse.

Any bit when used incorrectly can cause discomfort to the animal.
Any bitless bridle, hackamore or any halter...just anything, when used incorrectly can create adverse results like callouses...
These "appliances" though also can create a means of communication that are gentle and humane when worked properly on the horses head, mouth and body.
Just because a horse has a "callous" does not mean cruelty took place. :|

You need to do some serious research and truly understand the proper use of a bit in this case or any tack and the gentle finesse of communication it can allow to occur...

I too would be curious to see the horse in a "gentler" bit...
I would like to see if the horse pulls, lugs, lays on and is harder to control which results in the rider needing to pull, tug, saw the mouth, and ride with a heavy-harder hand...
There actually _can_ be gentleness with the horse carrying a more severe bit and you not need to be so hard-handed or a "in-the-face" rider....
A twisted snaffle is actually far from a harsh bit in a good handed riders capable hand...
I've seen simple plain snaffles and other "soft bits" do much more damage to a mouth when it was needing you to ride aggressively in-the-face...
I've also seen hackamores, bitless bridle and halters be downright cruelly used on a horse...
_All in the handlers hands do the options show themself._
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

horselovinguy said:


> A twisted snaffle is actually far from a harsh bit in a good handed riders capable hand...
> I've seen simple plain snaffles and other "soft bits" do much more damage to a mouth when it was needing you to ride aggressively in-the-face...


I agree with all of this post except I can't find a reason why a person would need to use a twisted snaffle. The issue I have is that if the horse gets loose, a horse can cut themselves badly in the mouth if the mouthpiece is not smooth. I've seen horses that have had bad tongue lacerations from bits. 

What is there that a good-handed capable rider cannot accomplish with a smooth mouthpiece? If it is used softly and without being harsh, then why cannot another soft, "not harsh" bit be used? If it is not harsh, there is no need for it. 
There are so many options out there that do not include sharpness or the risk of cutting the mouth.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

gottatrot said:


> I agree with all of this post except I can't find a reason why a person would need to use a twisted snaffle.
> 
> There are so many options out there that do not include sharpness or the risk of cutting the mouth.



That *is* true about mouth injuries but I've seen some nasty injuries from the thickest, smoothest eggbutt snaffle mouth too.
_Accidents happen_...most of us are not cruel by nature and would never inflict pain to our mounts.
When you refer to "cutting the mouth" then you better remove all bits, all headstalls and collars of any type from our animals because all have "a risk" of injury...

There are also twists and then there are twists too...
I've seen less damage done when a horse respects a bit to not need the harder handling, tighter fist used on the reins in communication that maybe a twist can obtain.
No different than riding with spurs or crop/bat...when used correctly the horse not feel "the bite" but it is also a subtle reminder to pay attention, be sharp-minded. 

The biggest piece of this puzzle though is in the rider and their use of the reins to communicate whether the horse feels "bite" or not...
Training, sure...but just like we all like something different in saddle feel, so can a horse like and dislike a bit...
Unlike and you can have a horse who is not a pleasure to ride...
Like and your ride can be smooth, easy communication and such a joy...
You, the rider add a dimension to that equation as does the horse in responsiveness and happy attitude.
:runninghorse2:....


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I would never put a twisted bit in my horses' mouths, but I do believe you will be able to ride this horse without one. In fact, you might even try something completely different and go bitless! It all depends on the horse, but sometimes, bitless is just as good or better. Now some bitless setups can also be harsh, so be careful. I like my flower hackamore, and have had success with a Dr. Cook. And I have nothing against riding with a bit, but if your horse's mouth is hardened, something completely different might actually get his attention more. But if you try it, do it in a safe place with the help of a trainer the first time. 

Also, as @Karlaii says, learning to ride using other aids is best. So really, the bit shouldn't be the most important piece of equipment in riding. 

Finally, remember that horses live in the moment and are actually very forgiving. You can re-train a horse to different styles of riding, gear, etc. fairly easily if you do it methodically. Again though, this is best done by a professional who knows what they are doing. Perhaps a few sessions with a trainer if you're not already doing that.


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## Hackamore (Mar 28, 2014)

I am not a huge fan of twisted mouth bits, but you need to understand that a bit regardless of the design does not cause any pain or abuse. Pain and/or abuse from a bit can only be inflicted by the person behind the reins. In the right hands a twisted wire bit can be used affectively with no pain to the horse, but I consider this type of bit to be a training tool to be used for refinement and not the type of bit I would use long term. I keep a twisted wire snaffle around but have only used it a handful of times in 30 years. 

What type of but you use is dependent on your horses level of training & your knowledge as a trainer or rider. For general use and training a good smooth mouth snaffle bit will go a long way.


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## mkmurphy81 (May 8, 2015)

A horse can absolutely transition down to a milder bit. The first horse I owned as a child was ridden in a huge correction bit or gaited bit. She was a very forward stubborn mare who was totally inappropriate for a child, but somehow we worked together. Her previous owner (also a child) was afraid of her, and the BO's solution was to keep moving to a bigger bit. After I had been riding her for a while, and I was having trouble stopping her, the BO gave us an even bigger bit. The mare shut down. I hated that bit, so I decided to get her a plain snaffle. Fortunately for me, my parents were clueless about horses and had no idea how stupid I was being. The mare was just as good in the snaffle as she was in the big bits -- that is, she listened when she wanted to. I stuck with the snaffle, and the horse listened better and better as I became a better rider. I kept that horse for years and never went back to a harsh bit.

The moral of this story is that bits aren't a magic fix, and it is certainly possible to transition the hardest of mouths back to a mild bit as long as the horse attached to that mouth is willing.


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## ChasingDreams (Nov 14, 2017)

Yes! My horse was broke in a twisted bit and now rides in a bit like this:









He can get a little heavier contact, but he still respects my cues. That’s what schooling is for 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 15 hands (Apr 18, 2018)

Everyone has their own opinion on bits, it's like motor oils in an auto forum. I've tried tons of different bits over the last year on my QH, from a thick mullen mouth gentle port curb, argentine snaffle, jr cowhorse, simple o-ring snaffle, etc. I'm now riding him in a thicker mouthpiece twisted dogbone o-ring snaffle. As he has gotten softer, we have transitioned to milder bits. When I first put him in this bit I also had him in a cavesson which helped, now I'm not even using that. I'm a big proponent of "soft hands create soft horses" but they aren't born that way, they have to be trained that way and that is a process. Lots of bending and flexing, half-halts, stopping and backing, etc. 
The spanish and mexican buckaroos ride in some pretty outrageous bits but they have some of the softest hands ever and the slightest tip of a pinky finger and the horse gives, as horseluvinguy said, it's about the rider and their hands and communication.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

saddleseat savvy said:


> My gelding was trained for years in a twisted snaffle. Since I bought him and have learned more about bit abuse, I really want to not use such a harsh bit. (He hasn't shown any signs of pain from it and is cleared by the vet btw). Anyway I read that some horses loose feeling in their mouths and can never feel again from these bits. Is that true and if so what can I do to make the transition easier? Also bit recommendations would be helpful!



One more thing you can add to you list of "learned information about bits" is that is depends how you USE the bit. 



Just because a horse was ridden in a twisted mouthpiece does not mean the horse was abused nor does it mean the horse suffered any damage. It depends on how the rider was using the bit. If the rider stayed light, there is nothing wrong with a twisted mouthpiece. Damage is only going to occur if the ride did not release pressure appropriately and/or yanked or jerked on the horse. And of course, damage can be easily done in a smooth mouth bit.



With that said, I personally don't like twisted mouthpieces and feel I don't need them for my horses. But that's my personal preference. I know plenty of good horsemen and women who use twisted mouthpieces and do so correctly. 



So long answer there, you should be easily able to switch to a smooth mouthpiece if that is what you would prefer for your horse.


Now a question for you: Are you truly using a snaffle bit on the horse, or are you referring to the mouthpiece being "broken" as a snaffle?
Did the bit have shanks and/or are you wanting to use a bit with shanks?


What are you using the horse for?
How old is the horse?


It's hard to suggest something for your horse unless we know what you are using him for, and how much he is trained.


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## EdmontonHorseGal (Jun 2, 2013)

a twisted snaffle, whether it be wire or thicker stock for the mouthpiece, is designed to create a pain compliance response. that thin edge of the twist is designed to grab at the tongue/bars/lips and make the horse comply regardless of the rein pressure used.

i would get into lessons on your horse with a good trainer, and have them teach you how to be soft in the hand with a humane snaffle that is smooth mouthed, while at the same time helping you teach your horse to want to comply without pain involved.

i don't believe the nerves of the mouth become 'dead' from harsh bits, but the horse that is put into a harsh bit in order to ride is a horse that does not have the proper training to begin with, so that is the reason they 'don't listen' and one needs to keep upping the bit severity to keep them complying.


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## koda2004 (Sep 2, 2017)

Twisted wire snaffle are harsher than what i like to use but they aren't terrible. If your horse was not injured or painful with the twisted wire then why do you refer to it as "recovering"? It doesn't sound like the bit was used harshly or that your horse dislikes the bit so sure you can probably ride him in a different bit but i wouldn't say that he needs to "recover" from his last bit.


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## saddleseat savvy (Feb 22, 2018)

Thanks everyone! I would prefer to use a snaffle with him and only use the twisted for periodic tune ups and maybe at shows when he tends to ignore me more.
I am pretty light handed and use a lot of release, but he sometimes opens/rotates his jaw when pressure is applied so thats why I would like to try another one.
I guess I will have to experiment at see what snaffles he likes and doesnt like!
I also have tried bitless with him and he seems to really like it


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## EdmontonHorseGal (Jun 2, 2013)

with proper training you won't need a 'tune up' bit nor a stronger one at shows.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

gottatrot said:


> I agree with all of this post except I can't find a reason why a person would need to use a twisted snaffle. The issue I have is that if the horse gets loose, a horse can cut themselves badly in the mouth if the mouthpiece is not smooth. I've seen horses that have had bad tongue lacerations from bits.
> 
> What is there that a good-handed capable rider cannot accomplish with a smooth mouthpiece? If it is used softly and without being harsh, then why cannot another soft, "not harsh" bit be used? If it is not harsh, there is no need for it.
> There are so many options out there that do not include sharpness or the risk of cutting the mouth.


There are instances that twisted snaffles help certain situations. I've used them on lesson horses that have decided to ignore my riders and then I put the horse back in his snaffle and all is well. Sometimes lesson horses need a little more bit or some other corrective piece of equipment for a ride or two with an experienced rider to remind them of their job. As far as a daily use bit, I don't see a need for that, in the same way that side reins are not a daily need. In experienced hands, the twisted snaffle isn't harsh, it's a corrective tool to be used and put down, like any other corrective piece of equipment.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

palogal said:


> There are instances that twisted snaffles help certain situations. I've used them on lesson horses that have decided to ignore my riders and then I put the horse back in his snaffle and all is well. Sometimes lesson horses need a little more bit or some other corrective piece of equipment for a ride or two with an experienced rider to remind them of their job.


My bias is that I would rather use some leverage or another type of action rather than something sharp in the mouth. I am talking about actual twisted snaffles that have sharp edges. I don't agree that a horse needs something sharp in his mouth, regardless of which big name trainer's name is on the bit.

My goal is always that a horse will have a comfortable mouth. I want to teach him that if he responds to cues he can carry the bit comfortably and hold it on his tongue. With a leverage bit you don't have to go away from that ideal. With a sharp mouthpiece, the horse can't carry it comfortably even when he is being compliant. You can make a smooth bit uncomfortable when a horse is not complying, but as soon as you are done with the correction, it becomes comfortable again.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Any horse can get dull and need a tune up. Sometimes a tune up can be as simple as bumping him a few times in a smooth snaffle. Sometimes you have to have a little more to get a decent result. I have a slow twist and a twisted wire in my tack collection, and I use them every once in a great while. Dreams has needed to be moved up to the slow twist once, after three consecutive days of not even trying to get lighter in the smooth snaffle. I tuned him up for two days in the slow twist, then popped the smooth snaffle back in and he hasn't needed it since. Now when I ask him to give, and he doesn't give, a light bump with the smooth snaffle will remind him that I want his face to be soft. It was the same when I transitioned him to a bosal - my general purpose bosal is 5/8", a good starter type bosal that is very easy for Dreams to wear. After wearing that bosal for a few months and doing fine, he went through a few days where he was trying to lug on my hands, and not being soft, and generally being a pig about lightness. I rode him for 2 days in a bosal made of stiff lariat rope, to remind him to be light, then moved back to our regular bosal, and wonder of wonders, he was light again. 

I am fanatical about having light hands. I will make a few attempts to lighten a luggy horse (over two or three days) by closing my fingers quickly or bumping with my hand, and if that doesn't work I will move up in severity until when I ask the horse to soften and give to the bit (or whatever) he will do so. I will ride him for a day or two in that more severe option, then when I feel that he's "got it" I will return to the original bit. I loathe luggy horses however, and I will do whatever I need to do to get a horse light in the face (within reason I mean, obviously a colt that's had 3 rides will not be very light, and that's okay. I'm talking about more finished horses). HOWEVER I agree that reins are probably the last signal I give. My seat, voice and legs are all utilized first before I start doing anything with my hands. I also ride on a loose rein 90% of the time. On Dreams you will often catch me riding with a drape that hangs past the point of his shoulder, and I can guide him around at all three gaits using just my other aids most of the time. I will collect him up, or ask him to soften, many times throughout the ride, but after he does that I will throw the reins away again. 

Once a horse is broke to a certain degree, everything else is just refinement, and in order to REALLY refine your cues, I believe sometimes a more severe bit (or whatever) is necessary to "wake a horse up" so to speak. Same with other aids. Usually I can get Dreams to bend around my inside leg using only my calf. Sometimes he gets lazy and I have to roll my spur on his side. But as soon as he's light again, I return to using my calf.

Make it as easy as possible, but as firm as necessary. 


-- Kai


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## ChasingDreams (Nov 14, 2017)

Chase got luggy for a few rides at the new barn. I didn’t get to the point where I needed to put him back in the twist, but it took a ride or two where I felt like we circled, weaved, yielded, and backed more than we rode forward. He figured it out pretty quick that I would not let him have his way and trying to avoid me would take more effort lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

gottatrot said:


> My bias is that I would rather use some leverage or another type of action rather than something sharp in the mouth. I am talking about actual twisted snaffles that have sharp edges. I don't agree that a horse needs something sharp in his mouth, regardless of which big name trainer's name is on the bit.
> 
> My goal is always that a horse will have a comfortable mouth. I want to teach him that if he responds to cues he can carry the bit comfortably and hold it on his tongue. With a leverage bit you don't have to go away from that ideal. With a sharp mouthpiece, the horse can't carry it comfortably even when he is being compliant. You can make a smooth bit uncomfortable when a horse is not complying, but as soon as you are done with the correction, it becomes comfortable again.


There are no sharp edges and if the rider knows what they are doing (and should if they are using such a bit), the horse is completely comfortable and not have any idea he's got it in his mouth unless he defies the cue. It takes about once and they figure out that holding hostage and dragging little suzie around the arena was fun but it 'don't fly no mo'!"


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I say this over and over again but... A bit is only as harsh as the riders hands...


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## EdmontonHorseGal (Jun 2, 2013)

farmpony84 said:


> I say this over and over again but... A bit is only as harsh as the riders hands...


this is not true for all bits. some are, by design, harsh without any rein pressure at all. it is dependant on what the mouthpiece is made of, and if the bit is designed to cause pain.

take a look at some of the horrible bits in India being used with spikes on the mouthpiece - those create pinpoint pressure in the mouth without any pressure being put on by a rider.

look at mule mouth bits - the serrated edge is always in contact with the tongue, pressing in, without the rein being used.


those are just two examples of how a bit can be harsh without a hand on the rein.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

There were the ancient Greeks:










"_It is distinguished by showy cheekpieces in the form of S. The ends of which are bent, one horizontally inwards, the other outwards. The inward turning end probably went under the chin of the horse. The mouthpiece was particularly severe and consisted of two jointed cannons on which pivoted two rollers bristling with spikes (echinoi), designed to act on the bars of the mouth, and two disks (trochoi), acting on the tongue and on the palate, to prevent the horse from closing his mouth and resisting the action of the bit._" 

The Corinthian bit | The Works of Chivalry

Or bronze age bits:

Bronze Age bits | The Works of Chivalry

And there is the Magic Bit, which many of us have looked for and at least most of us have not found:

The bit that tamed the flying horse: Pegasus and Bellerophon | The Works of Chivalry

Larry Trocha's comments from a western competition perspective:

"_Also, be aware that some horses just can’t stand prosperity. Ride these horses with a mild bit and they just take advantage of you.

I have a horse like this in training right now. Every time I go back to a milder bit to reward the horse for good performance, he cheats me and won’t work right. So I’m forced to ride him in a stronger bit most of the time.

Now, this particular horse behaving this way disappoints me but I don’t hold it against the horse. I don’t get angry with him for it. It’s just part of horse nature to take the easy way out and slack off._"

https://www.horsetrainingvideos.com/bittinginfo.htm

Personally, I agree with @gottatrot: "_I would rather use some leverage or another type of action rather than something sharp in the mouth._" I'd try a good curb over a twisted snaffle - unless the horse proved to me he would not honor the curb.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

EdmontonHorseGal said:


> this is not true for all bits. some are, by design, harsh without any rein pressure at all. it is dependant on what the mouthpiece is made of, and if the bit is designed to cause pain.
> 
> take a look at some of the horrible bits in India being used with spikes on the mouthpiece - those create pinpoint pressure in the mouth without any pressure being put on by a rider.
> 
> ...


You are bringing up a totally different world than what is being discussed here though. I will admit that there are bits such as a cathedral that is very harsh, I would assume you would have to be an expert rider with an expert horse to be able to ride it without any pain or pressure. A bit like that makes no sense to me but we aren't talking about that type of bit here. We are talking about twisted snaffles, wires, ports, etc. Bits that the average rider might have in their barn.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Also anything with spikes on the mouthpiece can be considered medieval and not in keeping with modern bits used today. As above, we are talking about bits that the average schmuck might own, not torture devices. 


-- Kai


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I guess the point is that the ancient bits were obviously about "pain-compliance". I'm pro-bit, but I'd argue a lot of common bits are STILL about pain compliance. And yes, ridden lightly enough those bits won't do any harm. But unlike a spade bit, they aren't marketed as a bit to show how incredibly light the rider's hands are.

George Morris recommends using a double twisted wire snaffle to work on a confirmed bolter. That is obviously pain compliance. I used a Billy Allen curb - essentially a mullen bit but made as a curb - to work with my confirmed bolter. But it wasn't about pain compliance. It was geometry. When Mia stuck her nose far forward, a snaffle would pull straight back against her teeth. A curb bit rotates, so when she did that, I could still put the pressure on the bars and tongue - a mullen mouthpiece against the tongue and bars. 

Since it still applied pressure to where it made sense to her, she stopped. Then she learned bolting did her no good, and she stopped bolting.








​ 
A bit like the one above, a twisted wire gag bit ($16), is not a refinement bit. Just don't see it. It is about hurting the horse's mouth enough to intimidate it. The twisted wire snaffle is designed to hurt more with 5 lbs of pressure on the reins than a typical snaffle. Both of those bits are sold at our local feed store.

I've had to deal with a frequent bolter. Harsh bits have their place for short term training. But if I need a sharper bit to "Freshen" my horse's mouth, I think that means I've been spending too much time in my horse's mouth! Arguably, the real solution is to get out of my horse's mouth. All from a western perspective, of course.


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## EdmontonHorseGal (Jun 2, 2013)

i also have had a bolter and a bucker on my hands. my own mare 4 years ago.

not once did i think to put her in a harsher bit or a curb or anything that would hurt her. i knew it was more training needed and not a matter of causing her enough pain to comply.

her first bit was a mullen happy mouth, for just ground driving in the early days. then i moved her to a double jointed lozenge D ring. that D ring was the bit she wore back when she bolted/bucked.

even just last weekend when we had a slight hairy canary moment after a less than perfect/planned/pretty jump moment and she started to take off with me a little, i did not think that a harsher bit was needed. did a one rein stop without either of us having any pain caused or undue pressure. and i was almost coming off her right side just before that, and having mental flashbacks to 4 years ago during.

know what bit i had on her last weekend? that SAME lozenge D ring snaffle.


for all the horses i've ridden over my life, i have had a number of them bolt/buck/do things that proved they did not have sufficient training. i rode them all in smooth mouth snaffles and worked through the issues. that's the way to do it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

EdmontonHorseGal said:


> ... i rode them all in smooth mouth snaffles and worked through the issues. that's the way to do it.


I disagree. When my mare stretched out her head, the snaffle pulling back went against her molars - where a horse can easily ignore the cue. In fact, I doubt she even thought of it as a cue then.

Curb bits rotate. So when she stuck her face far forward (bit evasion), I could pull, the shanks would rotate, the mouthpiece would press against her bars and tongue - and she would listen. Once we cured the bolting, she was OK in a snaffle - although she acted most forward AND most relaxed in a curb bit.

She now lives in open country. She gets to go out and run a lot - unlike with me. And her current owners ride her in a bosal.

Now, here is another explanation that matches her behavior. When she was scared or very excited, she would stretch her nose out. What happens when you pull on a snaffle then? According to an X-ray, THIS might have been happening:








​ 
One possible explanation is that instead of going against her molars, it was pushing painfully into her tongue (picture 3C) - and she then ran harder due to pain.

There is something to be said for the idea that the gentlest bit is the gentlest bit a given horse will honor rather than fight.

Horses don't just "not comply" because they don't know what is being asked. They will also not comply when they REALLY want to ignore the cue - fear, excitement, etc. When Mia used to bolt, she would squirt diarrhea out the back. She was truly terrified when she bolted. No amount of arena training was going to help. She already KNEW the cues and obeyed them when she didn't nearly lose her mind. 

Even later, when she WANTED to run - really wanted - stopping her was tough in any bit. Not a training issue. She was racing bred and needed to get out and run in a way that wasn't safe in the desert. I couldn't duplicate it in an arena because we were going in circles in an arena and she didn't WANT to run endlessly then! When she moved to a place where she could regularly run for miles, it stopped being an issue.


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## EdmontonHorseGal (Jun 2, 2013)

bsms, the success you had in a curb with her was likely due to the poll pressure and not the way the bit was in her mouth. 

a horse with a nose poked out will be inverted in their body, and likely on the forehand. that makes it akin to riding a freight train vs a horse you can easily move the front end around on and control. by using a curb, you force the head in and down and out of that portion of the inverted frame. it does not get them off the forehand but it does give a semblance of control due to the mouth/poll/curb pressure.

many riders and trainers over the course of time have solved issues with snaffles, and not gone to a curb or to a harsh bit. i am steadfastly in that group, for life, after gaining the knowledge and experience that it can be done, and done well.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Actually, a curb bit rarely applies poll pressure. Gag bits will, but not curbs.

Yes, a galloping horse hauling butt is on the forehand. Not inverted, though. A horse hauling butt is USING its back, not hollowing it out. 

Using a curb did NOT make her bring her head down. No poll pressure. Once the curb strap engages, the circle around the head cannot get any smaller. That point is reached when the length is shortened by about 3/4" on each side, which isn't enough to exert noticeable poll pressure.

Curbs are NOT harsh bits. Snaffles can be. Take a look at the third X-ray. That is harsher than a curb. It abuses the tongue.

If I had to choose between a twisted wire snaffle, a thin wire snaffle, or a Billy Allen curb for gentleness, the Billy Allen would be WAY out in front! In fact, a Billy Allen curb is arguably gentler than most bitless bridles. I'm currently riding my horse in a bitless bridle (Dr Cook's), but I'm seriously thinking about putting him back into a curb. Not because he is doing anything wrong, but because I see the potential for GENTLER riding in the curb.

Snaffle-only is a pretty limited approach.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

EdmontonHorseGal said:


> bsms, the success you had in a curb with her was likely due to the poll pressure and not the way the bit was in her mouth.
> 
> a horse with a nose poked out will be inverted in their body, and likely on the forehand. that makes it akin to riding a freight train vs a horse you can easily move the front end around on and control. by using a curb, you force the head in and down and out of that portion of the inverted frame. it does not get them off the forehand but it does give a semblance of control due to the mouth/poll/curb pressure.
> 
> many riders and trainers over the course of time have solved issues with snaffles, and not gone to a curb or to a harsh bit. i am steadfastly in that group, for life, after gaining the knowledge and experience that it can be done, and done well.


Curb bits don't apply poll pressure, if they do its very minimal, gags do.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

bsms said:


> I disagree. When my mare stretched out her head, the snaffle pulling back went against her molars - where a horse can easily ignore the cue. In fact, I doubt she even thought of it as a cue then.
> 
> Curb bits rotate. So when she stuck her face far forward (bit evasion), I could pull, the shanks would rotate, the mouthpiece would press against her bars and tongue - and she would listen. Once we cured the bolting, she was OK in a snaffle - although she acted most forward AND most relaxed in a curb bit.
> 
> ...


You didn't have your snaffle adjusted properly and the horse needed training, not a leverage bit.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

palogal said:


> You didn't have your snaffle adjusted properly and the horse needed training, not a leverage bit.


Yes, the snaffle was adjusted properly. No idea how you know otherwise since you never laid eyes on her, while the professionals who did had no problem. 

And there is no getting around the FACT that within a week of training and then riding out in a curb, she gave up bolting. She would still sometimes shy, or turn away, but she gave up bolting. Never bolted again. I'd rather use a curb in that situation than use George Morris' recommended double twisted wire snaffle!

So...yeah, using a particular bit to help with a particular problem worked for me. And my horse. Who later rode sometimes in a snaffle, although she generally acted happier in a curb.

And BTW - it wasn't LEVERAGE that the curb helped. It wasn't increased force that taught her a lesson, but where the force went and what would give it relief.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

If it hit the molars it was not adjusted properly, which is what you said. A stronger bit is not training its laziness.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

bsms said:


> If I had to choose between a twisted wire snaffle, a thin wire snaffle, or a Billy Allen curb for gentleness, the Billy Allen would be WAY out in front!



I agree wholeheartedly. Sometimes I wonder if people jump to the conclusion that anything with "leverage" is somehow severe, and anything without leverage (no matter how thin or twisted the mouthpiece) is gentler. Like there is an equation that says leverage is always more severe than non-leverage. I certainly don't believe that's the case.


I love my horses and I ride in curb bits. Why? Because we have better rides and I feel we communicate better with them. Could I throw a snaffle on any of my horses and ride them in it? Sure, but it won't be as good as with a curb. I will have to pull on the reins more, their heads will go up instead if break at the poll, I will be doing more one-rein-stops. Maybe that makes me a crappy rider. But in 20 years of trail riding, all sorts of horses with all sorts of training, I have NEVER had one go better in a snaffle than a curb. Not a one. Maybe it's just me. 

Sometimes I think snaffles are some idealistic goal of certain style riders who think certain bits are cruel and have closed minds. Just look at all the nosebands on english bridles. If snaffles were so gentle, why do they need all those contraptions to keep the horses from opening their mouths? If curbs were so awful, wouldn't you need nosebands for them too? I think the difference is the constant contact people ride snaffles with vs. a curb bit which isn't engaged unless you need it. Yes, horses can certainly gape in a curb. But you aren't riding in contact all the time the way a lot of snaffle believers are.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

It is not possible to adjust a snaffle so that it cannot be pulled back against the molars. That is because they work linearly, and a horse who sticks its nose out will create a straight line from bit to molars to rider.

Tom Roberts, a very experienced rider whose advice has worked for me again and again, says that it is the true "nutcracker" effect - when a snaffle is pulled next to the molars, catches some inner cheek with it, and crushes the inner cheek...well, like a nutcracker crushes a nut! See "Horse Control - The Bit". Also see X-ray 3C above.

If curing a confirmed bolter of bolting in 4 rides is laziness, then I hope I can become the laziest rider in history!

PS: I've been riding Bandit in a Dr Cook's bitless for the last 6 months. He's behaved very well in it, but it doesn't release pressure very well and he is getting some white hairs on his face. I've gone back to a low-port, solid shank curb. He even direct reins well in that bit! He also rides pretty good in a snaffle and was doing fine bitless - but he's doing a little better in the solid curb. Hint: It isn't the leverage! It may be the frequently slack reins and the neck reining...


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

palogal said:


> If it hit the molars it was not adjusted properly, which is what you said. A stronger bit is not training its laziness.



A curb bit teaches the horse to break at the poll anytime the bit is applied. Isn't that training? Isn't that more consistent that what a rider can do with their hands alone? Especially riding with no contact?


Riding western, most of us don't ride with constant contact. If we need to cue the horse, we need to take up the slack in the reins. The horse can feel the curb bit (from just the weight of the reins with traditional leather split reins) and respond to it and break at the poll while we ride with one hand. Simple. Makes for well trained horses too, in my opinion.


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## mkmurphy81 (May 8, 2015)

palogal said:


> If it hit the molars it was not adjusted properly, which is what you said. A stronger bit is not training its laziness.


 If I read correctly, I don't think bsms ever said the headstall was causing the bit to hit the molars. If a horse sticks its nose out in a snaffle, and the rider pulls the reins enough, the bit will hit the molars regardless of how it's adjusted.
3 of my 4 horses are ridden in curbs. They are very gentle curbs, and the horses do well in them. The fourth uses a full-cheek snaffle because she likes to ignore turning cues. All of my bits are chosen based on the needs of my individual horses. That's how all bits should be chosen.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

trailhorserider said:


> palogal said:
> 
> 
> > If it hit the molars it was not adjusted properly, which is what you said. A stronger bit is not training its laziness.
> ...


Fixing a bolter with a curb is laziness. You create a better bolter that learns to duck behind the bit.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

trailhorserider said:


> bsms said:
> 
> 
> > If I had to choose between a twisted wire snaffle, a thin wire snaffle, or a Billy Allen curb for gentleness, the Billy Allen would be WAY out in front!
> ...


Nose bands are not used to keep the mouth closed. They are used to keep a snaffle from sliding through the mouth, like you use a curb strap on a snaffle. 

Dressage riders on highly schooled horses use pelhams at high levels which are leverage bits. Jumpers use elevators and gags. English riders are not anti- leverage. However, proficient riders of any discipline don’t put a band aid on bad training with them either. 

My husband prefers a curb with his gelding. However he rides in a snaffle just fine for our 11 year old. His gelding is well schooled and has no holes. 

You don’t patch a hole with a harder bit. You train the horse.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Well I guess with everything it all depends.....


SOME nosebands are designed to keep mouths closed, some aren't they are more decorative, or a hangover of the days when you had a cavasson in case you wanted to fit a standing martingale.


I love the discussion about contact, because it means different things to different people, or even the same person at different times..dressage contact for instance, nothing like I thought it was a year or two ago. I have struggled while people tried to describe, giving hand, pushing hand, etc, BUT it is only when you actually achieve it that the light bulb goes on! I had two lessons with a senior dressage judge over the weekend, yesterdays session was entirely about having 'gasp' an actual loop in the inside rein, through all paces and transitions. The outside rein was in SOFT contact to support the bend.....she was beautifully light and giving........and in a Myler snaffle.....


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> Well I guess with everything it all depends.....
> 
> 
> SOME nosebands are designed to keep mouths closed, some aren't they are more decorative, or a hangover of the days when you had a cavasson in case you wanted to fit a standing martingale.
> ...


Some are used to support the jaw and encourage contact of a greenie (flash) and some are used to discourage crossing the jaws (figure 😎 but non are designed solely to keep the mouth closed. If that is why they are used, by over tightening, it’s not correct. Any noseband can be over tightened to do that, just like Martingales or tie-downs can be over tightened to give the look of a low head.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

palogal said:


> Some are used to support the jaw and encourage contact of a greenie (flash) and some are used to discourage crossing the jaws (figure 😎 but non are designed solely to keep the mouth closed. If that is why they are used, by over tightening, it’s not correct. Any noseband can be over tightened to do that, just like Martingales or tie-downs can be over tightened to give the look of a low head.


True that.....


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

palogal said:


> Nose bands are not used to keep the mouth closed. They are used to keep a snaffle from sliding through the mouth, like you use a curb strap on a snaffle....You don’t patch a hole with a harder bit. You train the horse.


You persist in believing a curb bit is a "harder bit". It isn't. Not in western riding. Why? Because when the horse is starting to respond correctly, you give release. The HORSE chooses the pressure at which he responds.

If he is going to respond at 9 lbs of pressure in his mouth, then he responds when you apply 9 lbs with a snaffle or 3 lbs of rein pressure multiplied by 3 via the curb bit. 9 lbs either way. Cannot speak to English riding and I won't try. But in western riding, I've never met any one who decides "I'll apply 7 lbs". Instead, you increase pressure and release it when the horse responds.

Further - there is a period before all the slack is out of the reins, and before pressure is being applied to the mouth, where the horse can feel the shanks and mouthpiece rotating. He can respond before pressure is applied, or wait for pressure and then respond. As long as the rider doesn't snatch on the reins, the horse always gets a chance to respond before pressure.

The horses I've owned all figure that out pretty quick. They seem to like having a chance to get it right BEFORE there is pressure in their mouth. Yes, Mia quickly figured it out as well. Use some slack in the reins, never snatch on the bit, and the horse will always get a signal before pressure.

A horse who learns to stretch their nose out to make a snaffle ineffective has learned a bit evasion. Changing things up so that their favorite bit evasion no longer profits them is just smart. Or lazy. Call it any name you want, it works. Mia went from a hard-core repeat bolter to this:








​ 
If that is lazy, then may the Lord smite me with laziness, and may I never recover!

As for nose bands preventing a snaffle from being pulled thru the horse's mouth - never had that issue. Talk about using a Band-Aid! If someone makes a habit of pulling a snaffle thru their horse's mouth, it isn't the HORSE who needs more training!


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

bsms said:


> You persist in believing a curb bit is a "harder bit". It isn't. Not in western riding. Why? Because when the horse is starting to respond correctly, you give release. The HORSE chooses the pressure at which he responds.
> 
> If he is going to respond at 9 lbs of pressure in his mouth, then he responds when you apply 9 lbs with a snaffle or 3 lbs of rein pressure multiplied by 3 via the curb bit. 9 lbs either way. Cannot speak to English riding and I won't try. But in western riding, I've never met any one who decides "I'll apply 7 lbs". Instead, you increase pressure and release it when the horse responds.
> 
> ...



It's whatever works. If you can't hack it with correct training methods, you have to get it done one way or the other.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

palogal said:


> It's whatever works. If you can't hack it with correct training methods, you have to get it done one way or the other.


:mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

bsms-“You persist in believing a curb bit is a "harder bit". It isn't. Not in western riding. Why? Because when the horse is starting to respond correctly, you give release. The HORSE chooses the pressure at which he responds.”

This is exactly how we train ALL horses. Any time you cause ENOUGH pressure on a shanked bit to use the curb strap or chain, that IS contact.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

My horses tend to prefer a curb over a snaffle. They will go in a snaffle, they go better and are more relaxed in a curb. A well-fitted curb on a trained horse with a nice set of good leather reins gives a ton of signal before the slack is even out of the reins. A horse learns that he has plenty of signal before his mouth even feels pressure, and will really relax because of it. If a horse is good in a snaffle, he'll often be even better in a curb. 



There is a science to proper use of a curb bit in a western horse, from a basic grazing bit low-port curb up to the spade bit, which looks horrific to most english riders, but is actually quite comfortable for the horse as a well-made spade is balanced beautifully, gives a lot of signal, each piece has a purpose, and the high spade only contacts the roof of the mouth where the palate is most able to support it, and when used properly on a fully-trained horse is a true joy to use. Properly using a western curb bit is a science and an art, but when done correctly, there is so much more finesse than one can get with a snaffle alone.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

palogal said:


> It's whatever works. If you can't hack it with correct training methods, you have to get it done one way or the other.


Sounds like a nose band!

But yes, I taught Mia a bit evasion. Then taught her to stop the evasion. My error, which I corrected. The bolting was also an issue, one she arrived with, which was dealt with.

But my incorrect methods never caused a snaffle to slide through a horse's mouth, or made me need to wrap leather around her mouth to "_support the jaw and encourage contact_" or "_to discourage crossing the jaws_". I've never felt the need to spend the rest of my life wrapping leather around my horse's mouth!

And if something works, spectacularly, to correct a bad habit - why is that NOT a "correct training method"? Because person X never tried it? Because "_Fixing a bolter with a curb is laziness_"? Would you have been happier if I followed the advice of George Morris?



> "I strongly recommend more severe bitting on a known bolter, such as a double twisted-wire snaffle." George Morris, Hunter Seat Equitation, page 56


There are two pieces of advice I frequently received that proved worthless as a bucket of warm spit. 

One was that if a horse bolted on a trail, it meant she needed more time in the arena. Trial and error convinced me you sometimes have to deal with a problem WHERE it is a problem. The arena is NOT the answer to every issue, unless one wants to stay in the arena (which is OK, but not for me). If the problem only occurs on the trail, then it may need to be solved on the trail!

The second was that no horse should be put into a curb bit until it was flawless in a snaffle. I find a number of horses LIKE curbs. It is child's play to transition a horse to a western curb bit. Don't know about English. But a western rider should have no difficulty transitioning a horse from snaffle to curb. It is easy and some horses prefer them. And yes, a snaffle can be vastly harsher than my Billy Allen curbs or what is now my most commonly used curb:










PS: I'm not anti-snaffle. All my horses get some time in snaffles. Mia did as well, although her current owner prefers a bosal. What I find incomprehensible is that every horse needs a snaffle, and a curb bit is only for super-experienced horsemen. Mia taught me otherwise. Bandit & Cowboy are using the above curb (Bandit's is in copper) - and both do well in them.​


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Since the subject has come up, this is from Tom Roberts' books. This approach to riding, plus the curb bit, proved to be the two main things that turned Mia around. I'll also note a lot of people say this is not a "correct" approach, but it sure helped me and my horses:


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

So you get your training techniques from a book? Did you learn to drive a car from a book?


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

I think that's a bit unfair. I have found a number of very good training techniques from a variety of books, written by a number of different horsemen/women. To make the sweeping generalization that all training techniques found in books are bad, as you implied above, is incorrect - I remember reading about desensitizing your horse to dragging logs, by only asking him to drag the log a very short distance at first, and gradually increasing the distance as he becomes accustomed to it. Is that not a good way to desensitize your horse to dragging logs? That was found in a book. I learned to lunge a horse the "English way" from a book. I learned how to ask a horse for the correct lead at the lope from a book.


-- Kai


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

palogal said:


> Nose bands are not used to keep the mouth closed. They are used to keep a snaffle from sliding through the mouth, like you use a curb strap on a snaffle.
> 
> Dressage riders on highly schooled horses use pelhams at high levels which are leverage bits. Jumpers use elevators and gags. English riders are not anti- leverage. However, proficient riders of any discipline don’t put a band aid on bad training with them either.
> 
> ...


I would like to see a picture of a noseband designed to keep a snaffle from sliding through the mouth which doesn't do that by tying the mouth shut.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Avna said:


> I would like to see a picture of a noseband designed to keep a snaffle from sliding through the mouth which doesn't do that by tying the mouth shut.


A properly adjusted caveson. Nobody really rides in snaffles with small rings anymore ( I prefer D rings or eggbutt) so they're mostly just for the sake of tradition. However, adjusted correctly, the bit ring will sit on it and it should never be tightened tot he point it's keeping the mouth closed, if it's in the right place, it really can't anyway. Horses are capable of eating on the trail with bridles on, they can't do that if the noseband is keeping their mouths closed. Lots of people place them too low.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Kaifyre said:


> I think that's a bit unfair. I have found a number of very good training techniques from a variety of books, written by a number of different horsemen/women. To make the sweeping generalization that all training techniques found in books are bad, as you implied above, is incorrect - I remember reading about desensitizing your horse to dragging logs, by only asking him to drag the log a very short distance at first, and gradually increasing the distance as he becomes accustomed to it. Is that not a good way to desensitize your horse to dragging logs? That was found in a book. I learned to lunge a horse the "English way" from a book. I learned how to ask a horse for the correct lead at the lope from a book.
> 
> 
> -- Kai


No, not at all. The idea you can learn to ride correctly solely from books is ridiculous.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

palogal said:


> A properly adjusted caveson. Nobody really rides in snaffles with small rings anymore ( I prefer D rings or eggbutt) so they're mostly just for the sake of tradition. However, adjusted correctly, the bit ring will sit on it and it should never be tightened tot he point it's keeping the mouth closed, if it's in the right place, it really can't anyway. Horses are capable of eating on the trail with bridles on, they can't do that if the noseband is keeping their mouths closed. Lots of people place them too low.


Never seen anyone ride in a cavesson. Does that happen?


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Avna said:


> Never seen anyone ride in a cavesson. Does that happen?


_I still use a conventional, *regular *caveson on my bridle._
_They do exist yet...:tongue:
_
I _don't_ use cranks, dropped, figure-8, or anything but a regular old-fashioned caveson.
I also _don't_ use elevator or gag bits either...
I _will_ use a Pelham _*with*_ double reins, eggbutt, d-ring and full-cheek bits with bit loops attached.
I don't like loose rings, just don't like the look. :|
I'm different, I admit it...
I march to my own band and do something called work with, train and educate my mount_ to my liking..._
I own them, I ride them and I do what makes me happy, not the fads of today. 

But a caveson, _yes_... on my English bridles.
:runninghorse2:.... 
_jmo..._


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

palogal said:


> No, not at all. The idea you can learn to ride correctly solely from books is ridiculous.


 I think there are a couple types of riders. Those who go into it as a "sport" and care more about doing everything "correct" (probably to show) and the horse is the means to get them there. And those who just want a great relationship with their horse and to enjoy riding them. I am definitely the later. If I can go out and have a great ride with my horse and enjoy it......using whatever tack works best for us as a team, that's all I care about. It's hard to argue with what works, even if someone else feels it's not "correct."


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Book learning is not a bad thing but, unless you have someone on the ground who can see what you are doing and how the horse is moving (going) then you are not going to know if you are doing it correctly or not. 

As for bits, of the many many horses I have ridden I have only ever had one that would not go in a snaffle and yet went perfectly in a curb bit. 

Racehorses are ridden in simple snaffles, when retraining them I would change to a thicker bit or, in latter years a Myler, but they would soon go equally well in a plain snaffle. 

As said, it isn't the bit but the hands holding the reins. People will state "I have good hands," when in fact they don't! They think that because they have a light touch on the reins that they are light handed when there is tension through their wrists and arms. Hands that do not move with the horse's movement, especially at the walk, are socking the horse in the mouth with every step. 

I have ridden all sorts of horses in all sorts of gadgets, some bits would bring tears to MY eyes but used correctly can be an aid to schooling a certain problem animal.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

horselovinguy said:


> _I still use a conventional, *regular *caveson on my bridle._
> _They do exist yet...:tongue:
> _
> I _don't_ use cranks, dropped, figure-8, or anything but a regular old-fashioned caveson.
> ...


I guess this is my incomplete knowledge of nomenclature. I see that the word means two completely different things. One is just a simple noseband that goes with a traditonal english bridle. It of course doesn't close the mouth. This is what I guess you are talking about. The other is what I was thinking of (doesn't close the mouth either):


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I think there are a couple types of riders. Those who go into it as a "sport" and care more about doing everything "correct" (probably to show) and the horse is the means to get them there. And those who just want a great relationship with their horse and to enjoy riding them.  I am definitely the later. If I can go out and have a great ride with my horse and enjoy it......using whatever tack works best for us as a team, that's all I care about. It's hard to argue with what works, even if someone else feels it's not "correct."[/quote]

There's a lot more than a couple types. In fact there are as many as there are horsemen and women. Not everyone who competes is selfish and all about appearances. Not every casual rider is a paragon of sensitivity either. 

It is of course quite impossible to learn to ride from a book. You need a horse, too.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Avna said:


> I guess this is my incomplete knowledge of nomenclature. I see that the word means two completely different things. One is just a simple noseband that goes with a traditonal english bridle. It of course doesn't close the mouth. This is what I guess you are talking about. The other is what I was thinking of (doesn't close the mouth either):



Your picture is a lunging caveson...cue word of importance...._*lunging.*_


But you know what....many do not know what that is either nor how to use or adjust it. :icon_rolleyes:
We come from a different era and training of rider and use of equipment...
:runninghorse2:...


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

horselovinguy said:


> Your picture is a lunging caveson...cue word of importance...._*lunging.*_
> 
> 
> But you know what....many do not know what that is either nor how to use or adjust it. :icon_rolleyes:
> ...


You took the words out of my mouth...


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

I suppose I must be the only person on the face of the planet who can learn by reading something out of a book, looking at the pictures, and copying that. I find learning most anything from reading, looking at pictures and watching short video clips is very easy for me. If the book explains what should be going on in what I call Tolkien fashion (very detailed) and/or includes pictures, I can read the book, memorize a summary of what should be happening, and go out and copy it on my horse. I thought this was something every rider could do??? Heck, I thought this was what every rider DID. 

I never learned to ride western except out of a book. By the time I had my own horse we were too far removed from anyone to go to lessons, so I had to learn what I needed to know on my own. I borrowed books from the library and read articles in magazines to learn what to do. When I didn't know what a particular phrase meant, I looked it up. By the time I found people to critique me and ask questions, I'd been riding western for several years and the things they taught me were things I hadn't yet learned from a book - meaning that everything I learned from books was fine. To say that learning to ride from a book is impossible simply isn't true, because I have done it. To this day a lot of the things I teach my horses and a lot of the things I teach myself are all book learned. 


-- Kai


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

I should also add that I trained Thunder to drive almost solely off of information I found in articles online, books, and magazines. 


-- Kai


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> *Book learning is not a bad thing but, unless you have someone on the ground who can see what you are doing and how the horse is moving (going) then you are not going to know if you are doing it correctly or not. *
> 
> As for bits, of the many many horses I have ridden I have only ever had one that would not go in a snaffle and yet went perfectly in a curb bit.
> 
> ...



I so agree with all of this, especially the bolded.

There are many many things that you can learn from books and watching videos. Riding is something where you can increase your knowledge by watching videos, studying books, very useful ways of expanding your knowledge, BUT without that someone on the ground to give you feed back, how do you know when you ‘have it’ 

I guess not everyone gets joy when their instructor says “ok, leg 1” further back, so she likes that, she understood that” and that is what this journey is for me, the reward of a happy horse, and sometimes the difference is small!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Well, as a great reader and very much a self-teacher myself, I would like to say that people who are completely self-taught out of books lack something which learning from a teacher, especially with the support of a community of other learners, gives. And that is perspective. You have no mirror to see yourself in -- that is one of the things instruction is for -- you don't know how much you deviate from what is usual, you don't know if you are doing something habitually the hard way when there is an easier way, you are not given challenges specific to what you need to improve on -- and you miss out on the vast accumulated physical knowledge of a tradition as exemplified by a teacher within that tradition. You miss a lot. 

No one offered me lessons as a child and I learned by the seat of my pants the way a lot of people did back then. But I would have loved, intensely with all my heart loved, to have had a real education in riding and horsemanship. I am trying to make up for it now -- it can never really be made up, but I am certainly enjoying the process.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

lol I know you didn't mean this literally but one trick I used to use when learning a new leg position or the like is I'd park Mirage in front of my parents' living room windows, which were very large and had been treated so they acted rather like a mirror. I would have the book or magazine in front of me, look at the picture or read the description, and watch myself in the window. I would position myself according to the book, and memorize how that felt, how that made the horse move, how that released or added tension in my various body parts. I would do it again and again and again with Mirage standing in front of the window until my muscles remembered where to go, and then we'd do it at the walk in front of the windows. Faster than a walk I couldn't use the windows anymore but I remembered how that felt, and I could always recreate it later. I also used the windows to learn to feel what my horse was doing - I watched her hind legs when executing a slow spin to learn what it felt like when she locked that inside leg down. I watched her while we sidepassed to learn what that felt like, properly executed.

Don't get me wrong, I understand what all you guys are saying … but I respectfully disagree, at least about myself. If you are determined, if you spend the time to feel and listen to your horse, if you gather as much information as you can find on the subject and then get creative about really DOING it, and doing it right, and spending the time and effort necessary to get a feel for it, I see no reason why riding can't be learned out of a book. I think book learners have to be more creative, they have to think harder, they have to understand the subject more in depth, because they are at a disadvantage. But there is no reason why, with the proper application of your brain and your body and your feel, that you CAN'T learn to ride from a book. At least, I have not yet encountered anything I could not learn from a book, if I applied myself. 


-- Kai


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

Very informative thread... I disagree with the statement you can't learn from books. I know plenty self-taught pianists. They don't exactly butcher the music but they do miss the nuances and training that comes with being coached by a real, experienced professional to keep them on track and in time xD They think that 5 years of self-teaching will make it easy when they get someone to fix their habits. Yeah... five years worth of bad habits and don't even know what a metronome is... easier to have started with a fresh slate, _innit_? We all agree there. *The argument isn't if you can or can't learn from a book but to what degree*. Assuming I have a horse (xD) can I learn to ride western from a book? Yes. Will it be good? Prooooooooooobably not to typical standard but it'll likely be passable enough to get the job done (and make many of you cringe!). I think genuinely if someone cannot get LIVE feedback during a schooling session the next best thing is to video and watch yourself/send it to a professional. It's not immediate but it's better than nothing. Just like reading a book... it's better than doing it _completely uneducated_. Not optimal, not the worst. I wish some people I knew would _at least_ consider reading a book... 

As for bits... as someone new to this all.. all I ever read from everyone's responses is literally. 1. depends on how you use it which 2. relies on the person for actually educating themselves about it in the first place and 3. relies on the horse having been educated, too, which 4. requires the rider to either know how to train a horse or a professional in his/her place or 5. sell our horses coz how dare we bring pain and misery into this world!

<3


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Kalraii;1970553127)Very informative thread... I disagree with the statement you can't learn from books. I know plenty self-taught pianists. [/quote said:


> But there is a world of difference between learning to interact with an inanimate object, and learning to communicate with a living breathing prey animal.
> 
> 
> 
> *The argument isn't if you can or can't learn from a book but to what degree*. Assuming I have a horse (xD) can I learn to ride western from a book? Yes. Will it be good? Prooooooooooobably not to typical standard but it'll likely be passable enough to get the job done (and make many of you cringe!). I think genuinely if someone cannot get LIVE feedback during a schooling session the next best thing is to video and watch yourself/send it to a professional. It's not immediate but it's better than nothing.



Not much better, the whole progression is to go from reacting to a horse, to being proactive, the differences come from learning timing, and postition. 





It's a subject dear to my heart, because for many years I thought I could ride, what I could do was sit on a horse and kind of get what I wanted...like @*Avna* , I would love to turn the clock back, and learn to ride properly as a kid...things would have been different


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Kaifyre said:


> I suppose I must be the only person on the face of the planet who can learn by reading something out of a book, looking at the pictures, and copying that. I find learning most anything from reading, looking at pictures and watching short video clips is very easy for me. If the book explains what should be going on in what I call Tolkien fashion (very detailed) and/or includes pictures, I can read the book, memorize a summary of what should be happening, and go out and copy it on my horse. I thought this was something every rider could do??? Heck, I thought this was what every rider DID.
> 
> I never learned to ride western except out of a book. By the time I had my own horse we were too far removed from anyone to go to lessons, so I had to learn what I needed to know on my own. I borrowed books from the library and read articles in magazines to learn what to do. When I didn't know what a particular phrase meant, I looked it up. By the time I found people to critique me and ask questions, I'd been riding western for several years and the things they taught me were things I hadn't yet learned from a book - meaning that everything I learned from books was fine. To say that learning to ride from a book is impossible simply isn't true, because I have done it. To this day a lot of the things I teach my horses and a lot of the things I teach myself are all book learned.
> 
> ...


You and me both, as I'm pretty much my own coach and self taught. Most of the stuff I have learned have been explained to me without being on a horse and then I just read up and watch videos. Have had one lesson in my adult life, and that didn't cover much at all. 

I, too, would have assumed this was more common.


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Kaifyre said:


> If you are determined, if you spend the time to feel and listen to your horse, if you gather as much information as you can find on the subject and then get creative about really DOING it, and doing it right, and spending the time and effort necessary to get a feel for it, I see no reason why riding can't be learned out of a book. I think book learners have to be more creative, they have to think harder, they have to understand the subject more in depth, because they are at a disadvantage. But there is no reason why, with the proper application of your brain and your body and your feel, that you CAN'T learn to ride from a book. At least, I have not yet encountered anything I could not learn from a book, if I applied myself.
> 
> 
> -- Kai


I spend my past time thinking (tormenting my brain) about riding and what do I need to create this and that and the biomechanics of the movement. I still learn better from a visual image than just reading it, but what I try to do is imaging the things first without the horse - be it sitting on the chair or cantering around the living room.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Hmm. Can learn somethings from a book, but not the feel. For general riding purposes it is probably fine. 

@Kaifyre you came up with a very inventive way to practice your position. The thing is, that is not how a position gets correct. Many, many, people including low level trainers think one gets in the right position and then they can be effective with the aids. It is the opposite however. Actually, effective aids will put one in the correct position. 

This is the same thinking that a rider uses when they set a horse's head and ride it from front to back. It may_ look correct_, but it isn't and an expert can see that. 


My (past) Dressage instructor is a USDF gold medalist. She never once told me where to put my legs or hands. Not once. What she taught me was how to give the aids, and the position followed. My improved position and successful show career was because she was able to teach me how to feel and how to teach my horse. She had the ability to teach amateur owners (and pros!) and their horses how to succeed.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

It's a bit simplistic, actually to say what the best way to learn is. Isn't the latest thinking that individuals learn very differently? 

One person could have an instructor talking to them and not be able to learn as much as they could by reading the same concept, looking at a picture, or having someone guide them through the motion. Someone else might need to see another person perform the task. Some people can learn faster or improve performance if they use visualization.
In this way I think sometimes that riding lessons may not be the best way to learn, because they only use one approach with all kinds of people. I imagine my previous riding lessons, and wonder how much more I could have learned if multiple modalities were used. What if the lesson started with a chapter to read at home about shoulder-in and the theory of it, then the instructor demonstrated for me exactly what it looked like on my horse and how she was using her aids, then had me get on and have a try. 

It also depends a lot on what you are learning. With some things after learning the basics, you can only advance really well by teaching yourself. I've found this to be true with many advanced riders, who learn the most by dealing with the nuances an individual horse can teach them on a course or in response to training. Also, no one can tell you exactly how your body feels and how your brain and body work together. There will always be a component of teaching yourself how to implement things in a way that works for you.

If I don't read anything in a book, and have an instructor, I'll probably understand what I am doing less well than a person who read a book and understands what concepts the teacher is trying to get across. If someone is there to explain things, the learning can be faster unless they are not good at explaining, or their theories are wrong, or they're not particularly good themselves, or have limiting biases...etc. 

At some point, I'll be held back from getting better by my own physical aptitude, or understanding (which can be enhanced by a book or teacher), or the amount of practice I can do. If I only limit myself to what someone can tell me I am doing right or wrong, I am limiting myself to their understanding. If I learn from multiple sources, I have more potential. At some point it comes down to teaching myself from experiences of what works and developing my own techniques so I can really excel. Not reinventing the wheel, but understanding how I move the wheel as an individual.

We have an ability to learn from so many ways now. We can access books written by experts in many areas of the horse world, we have a huge variety of videos available to watch, we can have others critique us on videos. It doesn't seem like anyone needs to say "this is the best way" to learn, but rather try to find the best way for yourself to learn based on what you are doing and your goals. Many things people do with horses do not have experts readily available in person in every area. Self-driven learners can do a lot with whatever resources they have.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Well said, @gottatrot.

I learn _facts_ from books. I am superduper good at learning facts from books, but that's it. Never techniques. I just can't. I cannot learn from videos either, in fact I can barely stand to watch videos -- particularly if it is just someone standing by or sitting on a horse and talking. After about thirty seconds my brain glazes over. 

I loved my lessons because my teacher kept trying different ideas on me until I got it. If one visualization didn't work for me she had another one up her sleeve. She introduced me to many concepts I would never have come to on my own. I was just thinking about the "circle of checks" she got me into practicing -- shoulders down, elbows relaxed, thumbs up, tailbone tucked, pinbones plugged into the saddle, knees in, and a little more weight in that crooked right foot -- now are your shoulders down? Start over. Top to bottom then right back to the top again. This works for me. 

I really miss those lessons, because they pushed me to places I didn't know I had to go in to improve. When I had an issue I noticed she had a whole toolbox of techniques to try on it. Through her long experience she knew what things I needed to work on first before I could work on another area of difficulty. 

Unlike the OP, I need help, a lot of help, and an external framework (e.g. regular lessons) to make any kind of progress in riding skills. Otherwise I would just be a sloppy trail rider who doesn't even know how bad a rider I am. So, I am not saying it cannot be done (learning from books alone). It's just that I cannot imagine how it could be done.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Doctors, Veterinarians, Teachers, Pilots, etc learn from books. We ALL learn from books BUT... then we all do the practicals. We all go out and get the real experience. Even kids in school learn how to do things such as powerpoint and math concepts but then they have to show they understand it by creating their own presentation or completing a math project by showing all of the work.


Books are good, but the practicals are most important to obtain the full understanding. You can read about things and you watch videos but until you physically do it, you can not truly assume you have the know-how, the experience or the understanding.


Books aren't bad. But they should not be the "final answer". Also - books that were written a century ago isn't going to be up to date. Just think, there was a point where the world was flat according to books....


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Kalraii said:


> ...I know plenty self-taught pianists. They don't exactly butcher the music but they do miss the nuances and training that comes with being coached by a real, experienced professional to keep them on track and in time xD...
> 
> ...Assuming I have a horse (xD) can I learn to ride western from a book? Yes. Will it be good? Prooooooooooobably not to typical standard but it'll likely be passable enough to get the job done (and make many of you cringe!)...
> 
> As for bits... as someone new to this all.. all I ever read from everyone's responses is literally. 1. depends on how you use it which 2. relies on the person for actually educating themselves about it in the first place and 3. relies on the horse having been educated, too, which 4. requires the rider to either know how to train a horse or a professional in his/her place or 5. sell our horses coz how dare we bring pain and misery into this work...


"_But there is a world of difference between learning to interact with an inanimate object, and learning to communicate with a living breathing prey animal._" - @*Golden Horse* 

"_Book learning is not a bad thing but, unless you have someone on the ground who can see what you are doing and how the horse is moving (going) then you are not going to know if you are doing it correctly or not._" - @*Foxhunter* 

Actually, Foxhunter and Golden Horse have missed the point. What they say is a fault is the solution!

*Every time I ride, I have a judge: My Horse. I get feedback continually - from the horse! The horse is NOT an inanimate object, unaware of what is happening. And the horse, unlike a huge number of human instructors, KNOWS how it feels to be ridden in different ways!*

Consider transitioning a horse to a curb bit. On this forum, many - including a number of people posting on this thread - told me it could only be done by expert trainers, after t he horse was flawless in a snaffle. Otherwise the horse would be ruined. But I was desperate, I tried it with Mia - and it was one of the easiest things I've ever done with horses. EASY. PIECE OF CAKE.

And after a few rides with Bandit in a snaffle, trying to teach him that, contrary to his previous training, a bit wasn't just an emergency brake, I put the Dreaded Tom Thumb curb bit in his mouth. Spent a few minutes showing him what I wanted from the ground. Then rode him for about 10 minutes in the arena. And he seemed to understand it fine, so we went out on the trail and he behaved without any issues.

The people who told me it was incredibly difficult to transition a horse to a curb, that it could only be done by experts, had obviously never tried. They just talked. They parroted what they had been told and what they had accepted as true without ever finding out for themselves.


I've had lessons with human instructors standing there, telling me to get after a "naughty pony". The pony wasn't naughty. He was in an ill-fitting saddle, in pain, miserable as a lesson horse. That same pony is now our most trustworthy horse. If he was just a little bigger, I'd fight with my wife and DIL for the right to ride him. He's an absolutely wonderful horse. Experienced, level-headed, sassy but willing when the chips are down. And the human instructor who told me he was being naughty was full of dog poop!

I have no objection to GOOD instruction. But there aren't many good instructors out there. A while back, someone on this thread was riding in a long-shank western curb bit without a curb strap, shanks pointing straight back at her hands, and her instructor didn't notice. She asked if there was any reason to use a curb chain with a curb bit. The AHQA would disqualify someone - for abuse - if they rode with a curb bit and no curb strap. I'd fire that instructor. The instructor doesn't know squat about bits.

Personally, I think that is a sign someone took too many lessons. They have gotten in the habit of asking a human how their riding is going instead of asking their horse. And if your horse won't tell you, remember what my daughter says: _"Horses don't talk to people who don't listen!"_

PS: "_Also - books that were written a century ago isn't going to be up to date._" - @*farmpony84* 

Odd. We're supposed to believe the dressage masters of the 1600s. We're supposed to believe Xenophon, writing in 400 BC. But we are supposed to ignore cavalry officers writing in 1935. Disconnect, anyone?

Here is something written 150 years ago. I wish every new rider was made to memorize it:


> The French say, when speaking of a horse that shows restiveness, "il se defend" - he defends himself...There is much truth in this expression, and it is one that riders should constantly bear in mind, *for insubordination is most commonly the result of something having been demanded from the horse that it either did not know how to do or was unable to perform*...
> 
> ...There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - *it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement*; and under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this without overtaxing its powers, will work willingly to the last gasp, which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal...
> 
> ..*Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored; they like amusement, variety, and society : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way*, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place, especially with young animals. It is evident that all these things must be taken into account and receive due attention, whether it be our object to prevent or to get rid of some bad habit a horse may have acquired ; and *a little reflection will generally suffice to point out the means of remedying something that, if left to itself, would grow into a confirmed habit, or if attacked with the energy of folly and violence, would suddenly culminate in the grand catastrophe of restiveness..*. - by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (1868)


Of course, it is invalid. Old book. Out of date. Not nearly as good as what one can find on YouTube today! :evil:

< / rant >


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Yesterday I had a rare group lesson, in there was a friend who had a fall recently, and I felt so much for her...she was tense, kept asking her mare to go, but every time she said “forward” with her leg, her hands and body tensed up and said “whoa” The mare was getting more upset, and it took a lot of talking from the coach to get her to change, because she thought she was giving, but all of us could see that she wasn’t. This is so often the thing with riding, what you imagine your body is doing, isn’t what is actually happening.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

*Every time I ride, I have a judge: My Horse. I get feedback continually - from the horse! The horse is NOT an inanimate object, unaware of what is happening. And the horse, unlike a huge number of human instructors, KNOWS how it feels to be ridden in different ways!
*

This is absolutely true. However, in my experience I have found majority of horses want to please the rider, especially if are having interaction with them other than riding. 

They put up with a lot more than a human generally would and will do their best to please regardless of what the rider is doing. 

I rode more on a loose reign than I did a contact. I could ride and lead a young horse along very narrow single track roads and pass a tractor and trailer loaded with polythene wrappped haulage bales with barely 3' to get past them. 

_I did not snatch up my reins and ask for a contact, I just let the horse I was riding squeeze past with the youngster following._

would your horses gallop along midst twenty + other horses and stop because you have sat down and uttered "Whoa" turn and go off in a different direction away from all others without an iota of hesitation? 

Mine would.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> This is so often the thing with riding, what you imagine your body is doing, isn’t what is actually happening.



Boy, if THAT isn't the truth!


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Horses are the best teachers, but they are not the only teachers. Books can't be the only teachers either. IMO all of the senses need to be stimulated to learn, but since we all learn in different ways, we all need different sources of information. 

For example, I once had an instructor that was a devotee of Sally Swift. I tried, I tried really hard to do as she said, but it just didn't work for me at all. I even bought a book of Sally Swift hoping to be able to understand, but it just wasn't right for me. 

That instructor told me to hold my reins like a baby bird. The first time she said that I didn't hear it correctly and I thought she said there was a baby bird on my hand. I looked down at my hands while literally throwing the reins away! I totally freaked out thinking there was a bird in my hand about to POOP. That's all I could think about, bird poop in my hand. Nasty.


However, the *visual of circle of energy* I do understand, because I have ridden it. That is another visualization, not a physical fact. There is no electrical circuit doing it. 


The circle of energy, to me, is the lightest of all contact with the most impulsion. It is like a TB leaping out of the starting gate but able to return to a walk with a whisper of an aid. It is like sitting on a piece of dynamite, with total but light control. It is the ultimate partnership. 


Yet low level instructors try to teach this to beginning riders, and of course they can't comprehend because neither the rider or the horse is at that level. It is a visual explanation of the goal, not the path of learning.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> I think there are a couple types of riders. Those who go into it as a "sport" and care more about doing everything "correct" (probably to show) and the horse is the means to get them there. And those who just want a great relationship with their horse and to enjoy riding them. I am definitely the later. If I can go out and have a great ride with my horse and enjoy it......using whatever tack works best for us as a team, that's all I care about. It's hard to argue with what works, even if someone else feels it's not "correct."


 I'm a competitor. My mare has TONS of titles, and gearing up for Nationals. And yet, I scratch classes/shows when she's not quite right. I listen to her when she's having a hard day with work, and keep it easy for her. I trail ride her at every given opportunity. She isn't JUST my show horse, but my family and best friend. She lives on 20 acres with a new best friend, and I love just going down to groom her because I can. So segregating riders into two tiny groups is ridiculous because while I am a fierce competitor, I also have a great relationship with my horse. The MAJORITY of us that show do too, which is WHY our babies compete as well as they do.


As for learning from a book versus an instructor, I find the instructor incredibly beneficial in finding things I'm not feeling. I have my husband attend every lesson to record so I can watch later, and he can help me from the ground in between lessons.

Not saying you can't learn ANYTHING from a book. I read a silly Dressage series that made a comment that totally changed my half passes. I was doing ok ones, but nothing brilliant. The book (a fictional one at that!) stated a way to ride the half pass. Did it with my girl, and it entirely changed our game.

However, I'd had lots of lessons growing up as a teenager. While my feel can be a bit rusty, it's there from this trainer. My current trainer LOVES how quiet I am with my horse, and how I know how she's feeling or when something is tough. Eyes on the ground are incredibly valuable for those wanting to take their riding to the next level.

Again, books aren't bad, and I frequently pick up new ones to read to see if I can gain more insight into riding (even after 17 years of riding). But you can not replace an instructor with a book.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

trailhorserider said:


> I think there are a couple types of riders. Those who go into it as a "sport" and care more about doing everything "correct" (probably to show) and the horse is the means to get them there. And those who just want a great relationship with their horse and to enjoy riding them. I am definitely the later. If I can go out and have a great ride with my horse and enjoy it......using whatever tack works best for us as a team, that's all I care about. It's hard to argue with what works, even if someone else feels it's not "correct."


I think this is kind of how a lot of arguments get started. People thinking their way is the only way. To list just a few...


There are many different types of horses and riders out there. There are the high level competitive riders who actually consider their horses an asset or a tool rather than a partner. 


There are people who show and take lessons and do some trail riding on the side.


There are people who take lessons but don't show


People who show but don't take lessons


People who keep their horses in professional training year around


People who ride, just to ride and maybe dabble in show and maybe just goof off.


There are people that have horses who know the basics, they do basic steering and stopping.


Horses are trained in so many different ways and levels.


A working ranch horse may seem untrained to someone that is used to the show ring. Maybe they carry their heads too high or don't seem collected... but that ranch horse will let the rider rope a cow, drag a tree or a fence post, open and close a gate, cross a creek, whatever the rider asks, it will do. Maybe the pretty show horse won't.


There are show horses that will do the above. 


I've read books and magazines, I've taken lessons and clinics, I've watched clinics and videos, I've done things on my own, I've asked questions, I've figured things out. I believe there is no one way to do things. Not every clinic, lesson, magazine, video, or book is correct. What people did back in the 70's has evolved and some of it is no longer considered as efficient as it was then. Things that were done in the 1800's and 1600's have changed. We have to allow people to glean what works for them out of stuff.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Our horses can be very honest reflections of our riding, and excellent references (judges) as to whether something is 'correct' or not.


But, sometimes we are stuck in the same cycle, every repeating the same thing, becuase we don't even know that things can be BETTER by doing something different than we've always been doing, and getting by just fine, all this time. That's where outside perspective CAN help a rider improve. Not a requirement, but sure can be a help!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I have no issue with people not understanding, despite people trying to argue to the contrary I do not believe that the world begins and end with dressage, while still actually believing that the fundamentals of dressage, are the fundamentals of most riding...It's only now I am moving to level 1 and 2 work that we are doing things that I see as Dressage, not maybe needed in the real world..... 



What I have issue is people trying to argue something that they obviously don't understand, all that does is confuse others who do want to try and understand.. it is very wearing.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Book learning is a great thing. But, how many of y’all had to do an internship to graduate college? Book learning got you to a point. The internship gave you the hands on experience. You have to internship before you get that degree. Lessons are your ‘internship’ after doing your book studying.

Why people can not grasp that concept is mind boggling. 

Lessons can be another tool in your tool box when dealing with horses. And the most experience of horsemen will tell you they are still collecting tools after 50 plus years of training and riding horses!

Personally I will never have enough tools.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Last summer I was out walking the dogs. I met two riders coming towards me and we stopped and chatted. One woman, I would say in her 40s was obviously very nervous. When the horse moved she was clinging onto the reins and leaning forward. 

Automatically I told her to relax, sit up amd let her reins out. Her remark was that she _was_ sitting up and if she relaxed her reins her horse might tank off. As there wasn't any animosity between us I pulled her shoulder back to slightly behind the vertical and made her soften her wrists and arm. She felt very strange but the horse stood still amd relaxed too. 

We talked for a while and this was a case of someone who didn't take lessons because she went to pieces when yelled at and being nervous it made matters worse. She went on to say she was frightened to canter (she had a grab strap on the front of her saddle) I told them tomwalk down the side of the hill we were on and turn and canter back up the hill. I told her how to sit and to just relax the reins. 

They both went down the hill, friend in front and half way up the hill her horse wanted to trot. I yelled out for her to use her legs and keep him cantering which she did. The grin on her face was a pleasure to see. Her friend was happy that she was happy. 
This woman knowing she needed lessons but worried about being such a nervous wreck, read and watched videos. She _thought_ she was sitting up, she thought she was soft handed but wasn't. 

During the winter I again met them, this time they were both cantering along a flat stretch of track, the woman was way more confident and sitting more upright. Her being more relaxed and confident passed to her horse and both were so much happier. 

She said that the whole time she rode after meeting me she told herself to lean back - her lean back was just slightly behind the vertical which was fine and safer for her. As she gained confidence so that became sitting up.

Simple fact is that she greatly benefitted from me helping her in a matter of a few minutes. She took advice from a person who oozed confidence even though they were a total stranger. 

I was schooling a horse when my niece then around 10, said, "Aunty, why is your right leg going back so far?" 

I was totally unaware it was and set about correcting it. 

My Grandmother had a saying, "You can learn from the biggest idiot - even if it is how NOT to do something."


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

MOD NOTE
This thread has been reopened with some edits and some post removals because it was taken off track in a way that was not fitting for the topic of the thread.
Some of the off track discussion has been left in - mostly that about rider training but it would be preferable if members could stick to posting advice and comments relating directly to the OP's question about twisted snaffles.
Discussions about collection, dressage training techniques and jargon, riding lessons and riding in traffic would be better suited to a thread of their own.


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