# Is these traning methods okay?



## MajaLove (May 25, 2011)

( i'm new here so sorry if i posted this wrong. I'm from Denmark too so i try my best to write good and understandable english )

I just saw these to video clips on youtube. They are taken from at big western competesion in Sweden during the warm up. Only a couple of hours video.










Is that okay? I think not. 
The ones who recorded it has been threatend to be sued by the riders in the video.
But.. If the riders thinks that it is an okay way to ride - why do they want to sue anybody? Shouldent they instead stand up and explan why they do tihs?

The people behind this have asked FEI what their opinion is. They dont think that there is anything wrong in the videos at all.

Place say your opinion about this!


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm not a Western rider, but I know those are reining competitions. I don't see anything spectacularly bad about what they're doing.

I don't like the jerking on the horse's face to get it to tuck its head, nor did I particularly like the one woman who almost slid her horse into the wall, but there isn't anything on those videos that made me gasp in horror.

What makes_ you_ think they're horrible?


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## Zeke (Jun 27, 2010)

I see nothing wrong in the first video. Fencing, which is the act of running the horse hard down to the fence, is a common practice in reining with a very practical and safe purpose. The horse knows the fence is there and in my years of watching I have yet to witness a horse run into a fence or get hurt in the act (I've really only watched professionals and those in training with professionals however)

In the second video, yes the horse is being ridden pretty over bridled, and I hate to see him yanked on like that. I will say however you can see when the fencing shots come up that the horse is throwing his nose in the air during the stop (not really desirable) and maybe he was trying to fix this in a pinch? I can understand possible reasons but wouldn't condone them to anyone. 

I would think these riders are sueing more because they were filmed without their permission? I could also see the second rider being upset a video of him reprimanding a horse in a controversial (yet often common) way may tarnish his name. 

Do you rein?


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## MajaLove (May 25, 2011)

I don't like the videos because of the riding, the overbending of the horses and i do not understand why it is accepted to ride the horse into at wall/directly towards it.
The hard pulls i do not understand either.
If theese people are proffesional, then i am beginning to think that it is the wrong people who are rewarded with medals.

I think the riding world has become blind - wether it is dressage, jumping, western or others. There are stewards who sit still and does not say a thing when horses are treated this way or worse.
Why should this be allowed?


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

Yanking your horse's chin to his chest is just plain bad training and horsemanship! Unfortunately, it happens at all levels of competition.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

As long as the horse is stopped _before_ it get to the wall, where's the harm? The arena doesn't look that big, and sliding stops take a lot of room. It's not like the riders are running their horses headfirst into the wall. 

There's absolutely nothing on those videos that make me think those riders are abusing their animals. Sure, some of the things they do, like yanking on a horse's face, are something of which I don't approve, but actual abuse? No, not really.


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## Zeke (Jun 27, 2010)

So you just don't like this style of riding at all? If so please please look up other reining videos, it truly is a great sport for both horse and rider. 

I can understand not liking the over bending, I'm not a fan either. I've seen many people over bend in the warm up arena with hopes the horse will relax into a more natural position in the area however, using the over bending as a schooling technique. If the horse is unfocused and running around like a giraffe the schooling doesn't bother me as long as it doesn't last too long. 

The running the horse into the fence is called Fencing. It's a method used very often and safely to encourage to get the horse to put the brakes on and stop NOW and getting a good slide. The woman on the palomino in the first video gets a little close for comfort, but not so close that I am surprised or appalled, many riders will ask for a stop a little farther from the wall. The horses are wearing specialized shoes to allow them to slide without injury as well as wearing protection to avoid scrapes and burns from the slide. This is also an advanced move that is worked on a lot before being asked to run at a wall and slam on the brakes. 

I don't see anything harmful in it, could you explain what your concerns are?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I'm with SR. I don't necessarily _agree_ with some of the things in the videos, but they are a long way from abusive and horrible.


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## Tianimalz (Jan 6, 2009)

I personally don't have any experience outside just trail riding and the common sense of working with horses. The second guys tactics seem a little too demanding and firm, but I didn't see anything that made me think "OMG WTF ARE THEY DOING?" Some people have different training and riding tactics, and unless the horse is being abused or put in a situation that puts the horse and rider in right in danger, I don't see anything that's anyone else's business.


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## MajaLove (May 25, 2011)

Wow, i did not expect to get theese reactions.
But maybe we just look diffrent at whats okay? Here in Denmark this has woken alot of people who under no circumstances thinks that it is okay, what they are doing. 

I have nothing against western, renning or what so ever - only if it is done like this. 
I do not understand how you can accept fencing. Riding the horse close to the wall or into the wall - no diffrence for me, it is not okay.
Yanking the horses bit, makeing it touch its chest with its nose and makeing it spin 20 times around it self - its jsut not okay. And especially not in the way that it is done on the last video.

So theese videos are just fine to for you? ;
























 
I have a feeling that maybe it is because western is from America and a lot of you are from American. You are used to watching it and maybe the whole questioning traning methods has not reached you yet.
I'm not trying to sound smart and say you are stupid. It just surpirses me.
Here in Denmark there have been alot of focus on traning methods the last 2-3 years and people are beginning to disagree with the professionals and the way things are done.


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## Zeke (Jun 27, 2010)

I don't have time to watch the nearly 30 minutes of video you've posted but I can say that this forum is full of people questioning training methods. There is not one single person who responded to this thread saying they agree with or would condone the way the horse was being yanked on in the second video, in my eyes on the topic of the horse's nose to the chest we all agree with you.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Why did you come here? Did you want an actual discussion, or just people agreeing with you? 

Yes, this is primarily a U.S. horse board. What you find so shocking because it's unfamiliar to you, we don't. Maybe you should do some research on Western disciplines, especially reining, before you make a knee jerk judgment call.

I don't agree with yanking on a horse's face regardless of the discipline, but what I saw in those videos didn't make me immediately think abuse. Sloppy training maybe, but no_ real_ abuse.

Do you even ride, Maja? I'm guessing you don't. There are many things to the nonrider eye that might look abusive or even painful to a horse, that really aren't.

Plus, as Zeke stated, there are_ plenty_ of discussions questioning certain training methods. You Danes don't own the moral high ground.


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## Zeke (Jun 27, 2010)

I second SpeedRacer and will restate what I've said earlier. Please please find some reining videos that were not loaded to youtube thanks to a controversy surrounding them. I would suggest something from the NRHA finals or the like, a horse in the arena showing.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

Do you have any videos that you think have appropriate training on it? If you do , please share.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I only watched the first two but I will say this. Those people had better keep riding in Sweeden because I don't think they would do too well in the States. Besides the face jerking & not staying in the saddle during stops that arena surface doesn't look like what we see real reiners riding on.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I have more of a problem with the reasoning behind the posting of the videos then the actual content of the videos themselves. There are better ways to enlighten people on better training practices.

What you are posting is the dark side of the equestrian world, it exists in any sport and the fact that these videos are cut only to show the bad isn't going to help anyones cause.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Farmpony, I did some independent research on Epona TV. They're apparently a PETA/SHARK type organization, and I'll lay odds the OP is no wide eyed waif who just_ happened_ to stumble across the videos. :?

Maja obviously came here for a _purpose_; to deliberately try and start a fire where there is none.


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## countercanter (May 18, 2011)

Of all of the videos posted, I don't really see anything very wrong about them. In the reining videos, I dont like the face jerking, but people do that in every discipline at every level, I don't like it, but it happens. And as far as the dressage and jumping warm ups, aside from a horse ocasionally over flexed and some draw reins being a little too tight I still don't see anything very wrong. Certainly nothing shocking going on.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

MajaLove said:


> Is that okay? I think not.
> The ones who recorded it has been threatend to be sued by the riders in the video.
> But.. If the riders thinks that it is an okay way to ride - why do they want to sue anybody? Shouldent they instead stand up and explan why they do tihs?
> 
> ...


_I too would threaten to sue if someone was video recording me without permission. ESPECIALLY if they were from an animal "terrorist"--wait I mean animal rights--group. _

_I see nothing wrong with the videos. Maybe slightly overkill, but nothing I haven't done. Yup...almost run my horse into a wall when I didn't have complete control over him. He's gotten a few chucks in the mouth as well (although in completely different style of bit). I have definitely over bent him when warming up as well, as he can be quite stiff, and I find if I go a little past "normal", he is a lot nicer to ride after._


_But as Speed has pointed out....You don't really seem to be here to "discuss" this._

_(PS. Just a short English lesson. It should be ARE these or Is THIS, not Is these. )_


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Speed Racer said:


> Farmpony, I did some independent research on Epona TV. They're apparently a PETA/SHARK type organization, and I'll lay odds the OP is no wide eyed waif who just_ happened_ to stumble across the videos. :?
> 
> Maja obviously came here for a _purpose_; to deliberately try and start a fire where there is none.


I have to agree with this statement.


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## EternalSun (Mar 29, 2009)

In the first video, I wasn't happy that the second guy riding his horse into the fence was so heavy handed. The fencing itself I have no issue with. I wouldn't label that guy abusive, but he is too "jerky" with the reins in my opinion.

The second video was a little harder to watch for the same reason. The man banging his horses head into her chest repeatedly without a release annoyed me because I couldn't tell what his purpose was. He kept yanking on her face and spurring her even after she was overflexed? What exactly was he trying to accomplish? I feel like if I don't get it, the horse certainly wouldn't, and that's just a bad / lazy excuse for training. 

That being said, I wouldn't call either one abusive. Would I send my horse to training with the guy in the second video, however? Absolutely not.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

It is a shame that 'it's what we are used to" really takes the sensitivity out of training. If this guys ego wasn't so involved he would treat the horse better than he is. I've watch all styles and treatment of horses evolve and vanish and it's the ones that are treated as in #2 that quit on the rider when the pressure is too great.


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## CecilliaB (Jan 21, 2010)

I think the guy in the first two videos will get his come upins. He is on the fast track to hardening a perfectly well mannered horses mouth and undoing probably very expensive training. I disagree with his methods but it's not abuse.

The other videos of warming up are just plane stupidity. The horse is clearly lame and the rider/trainers are evidently blind or don't give a ****. Give them a dunce cap and sit um in a corner. It's insensitive but again they will lose a nice horse because they are ignoring an important issue.


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## IslandWave (Nov 25, 2009)

I'm not a western rider and I've only ever seen one reining competition in my life and it was at the local level, not national or international.

That being said, here's my opinion: That was not reining. I'm under the impression that a sliding stop comes from the rider's seat and weight. Not from hauling on the horse's mouth. I understand that training can sometimes look ugly when you have a resistant horse. I do not think that the OP videos were abusive, but they did make me cringe a little. But am I right in thinking that the videos were taken at a FEI competition? I thought that professionals at that level would know how to ride. I guess I thought wrong. I know this was the warm up, but still, I would expect to see a little more harmony at this high level. Even when my trainer's Grand Prix stallion is disobedient during warm up, her corrections are much more subtle and effective. I also did not see them reward the horse for whatever they were trying to achieve. How can a horse learn when you never tell them when they are doing the right thing?

I would love to see a video of that trainer's actual reining pattern in the competition.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Majalove,

I am more in agreement with you than the posters up to this point. I was not as opposed to the running the horse toward the wall, which is not in itself cruel to the horse. But I definitely thought that way the horses were cranked down and pulled back was very negative treatment. There is no way in the world that this will relax a horse. Nor can it help them achieve the balance they need to do a sliding stop. They need to have their heand and neck available to them to make a balanced stop. As anyone could see in one of the last stops by the man on the chestnut horse, he pulled the head down so hard and forced the horse to basically put all it's weight onto his front legs, which causeed his rear to lift upward, almost pitching the cowboy out of the saddle.

The way he jerked the reins was really ugly and the horse is really unhappy. That is not the kind of harmony and teamwork that real reining is about. It is a very poor example of reining.

As for judges reward the wrong kind of horsemanship, this is often the case. I think it's because the really good rider is not spectacular. He/she is quiet, steady, calm and has such a good relationship with his horse that there is nor drama to attract attention and seem impressive. Thus, they get passed over for the rider who makes riding look like a spectacle.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

It makes me sad to see Craig riding like that - I loved his run at the world equestrian games. 

I am with Tiny - I don't think it is ok at all, but also wouldn't call it abuse. Cranking on the bit like that, especially in a curb - ouch!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RoyalAmbience (May 26, 2011)

*From another Dane*

I have followed the Danish discussions about horse welfare in equestrian sport since the owners of epona.tv started the Danish discussion several years ago. At first I was appalled at their practices and almost aggressive approaches to getting their news, but over the years I realized that they, unlike other Danish horses media, simply allow themselves to question what they see. Their questions are bound in evidence-based research including anatomy, biomechanics, behavioral ethology and learning theory.

I don't know anything about reining, but I'm told its the dressage of westernriding. I know dressage and love riding dressage, but my view on how to ride dressage and why I ride dressage has gradually changed - mostly due to the large amount of evidence-based knowledge, epona.tv has taught me. I can still be amazed by their approach, sometimes it's a little too much "slam - in your face!" for me, but I must admit - all they do is document the world and then ask - is this money race at the cost of horse welfare?

I'm not sure that I will compete with my horse, when shes old enough for competions, simply because my goal today is to have an obedient horse, which corresponds to small signals and carries herself anatomically correct. Oddly enough, this should be the goal of dressage competitions, but it turns out, unfortunately time and again that dressage horses with spectacular gaits weighted higher than stroke firmness and weight on the hind legs.

Oh, and the videos - In my opinion its money race at the cost of horse welfare. The art of riding is absent. Knowlegde of anatomy, behavioral ethology and learning theory is absent. It makes me very sad to see the videos.

I appologize if my English is not correct - translate.google.com helped me through :wink:


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## RoyalAmbience (May 26, 2011)

*Epona.tv in English*

Here's a link to the English version of Epona.tv:
EPONA: Home

To access the video archive, you need to subscribe. But you'll be able to read appetizers if you click eg. Dressage. 

The Danish version includes lots more artichles than the English version.


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## ledge (May 23, 2011)

Craig isn't pulling that hard .... well it is hard for a reigning horse but he's picking up on the rein but there is no pull, without knowing the habits that horse has you can't make any conclusions from the second video. But I can assure you this, those reigning horses are pampered and well taken care of... that is big money he's riding on. 

watch those guys closer you will see their long shank spurs do more talking than picking up on the bit.... if he was yanking on the horses mouth with the large port they use on those horses he'd be counter productive, you score on how little you use the reigns the more you abuse the mouth the less sensitivity you get.

the stops are safe that horse isn't going to run into a wall or fence and in an non reigning situation we will run down the fence/rail and turn them into the fence, it helps them to stop on their back end better and makes for better rollbacks.


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## RoyalAmbience (May 26, 2011)

*weight or pull*

Ledge, as I said, I don't know anything about Reining. Are you supposed to stop the horse with your weight as in dressage or by the rein?


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## ledge (May 23, 2011)

I don't rein much but you shift weight back and pick up on reins. Those horses have so many hours on them its automatic to hunker down and slide the back feet.

The hardest thing in reining is this, the horse by nature will anticipate what you want to do, however the patterns in reining aren't given until just before the competition. So most of the time is spent getting the horse retrained to respond to what you are asking them, to get the 6-speeds you need, spins, slides, rollbacks and flying lead changes.... not nearly as disciplined as dressage but tougher with the scoring.

A sport that pays more than all but horse racing that started out with horses that didn't cut it in cutting and were too short for western pleasure.


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## RoyalAmbience (May 26, 2011)

*Indications*

To me there are many indications that Craig is pulling hard: The horse keeps her head near the chest, mouth is open, Craig's hands are moving at least 15-20 centimeters (sorry :wink up and down to mention some of them. This is after the slidestop. What is the purpose?

Horses learn by signal-respons, they are not smart enough to anticipate. They simply don't have the brain for it. Craigh has won silver in World Championship, shouldn't he have the skills to teach the horse to wait for a signal?

Andrew McLean, an Australian scientist that holds a PhD in Equine cognition and learning, has written a lot of artichels about learning theory based horse training, available here: AEBC - Articles

About fencing. In Dressage the method Rollkur has been under critisism partly because of the anatomicly incorrect result, but also because of the field of vision, the horse is granted with, when put in Rollkur position.










Even when the head on the vertical, the vision is narrow:









According to this, is it ethically okay to train fencing?
http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/why_not/deep_vision.gif


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Actually reining videos (2nd one especially) look pretty sick to me (especially jerking the head down :? ). BTW is it something common among reiners to almost run a horse into the wall to teach the stop? I've never seen actual -training- for reiners (just finished horses), so no idea how it's done. And rollkur was discussed here gazillion times already in dressage section. :wink: 

With that being said overall those videos do look like made by PETA.


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## codacalico (Apr 4, 2011)

I don't see it as pertinent that the video was made made by an animal rights organization. I also don't think it is necessary to spit the words "animal rights" out of one's mouth, since ultimately most anyone who cares about horses or other animals is highly concerned with their welfare. 

That being said, I agree with the OP's premise of questioning existing practices in the horse world--nothing wrong with that. When we accept things wholesale without any question is when we get into trouble. 

As far as the reining video goes, I think we could get into a thoughtful debate about where the threshold for abuse is--but that does not appear to be the goal here. Rather I will agree with the consensus that I would never allow my horse to be handled that way.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

codacalico said:


> I don't see it as pertinent that the video was made made by an animal rights organization. I also don't think it is necessary to spit the words "animal rights" out of one's mouth, since ultimately most anyone who cares about horses or other animals is highly concerned with their welfare.


Unfortunately there is a difference between someone being concerned and going after PARTICULAR trainer/owner and making up videos to go after the WHOLE discipline (the bright example would be that video about "cruel and nasty" bits). It's a FACT that number of times PETA was = domestic terrorists in their actions and as much as I'm concerned about well-being of the animals I'd rather stay away from any organization going to the level of extreme in their actions and suggestions.


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## codacalico (Apr 4, 2011)

KittenVal--I agree with you on that last bit. PETA has certainly done a lot of backwards, unethical, and wrong things which do nothing to help their cause. However, just as you would not want a whole discipline being dragged through the mud by a singular example of poor training, neither should the concept of animal rights be dragged through the mud by PETA.


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## candandy49 (Jan 16, 2011)

If indeed this thread has anything to do the the PETA movement count me as annoyed with their tactics. What a radical group to have to deal with!!

I have watched a reining trainer in action on some of his many horses in for training for resale and he volunteered suggestions for me on my QH as I schooled her. I never had the intent to enter any competition with my mare, but schooling just for the sake of better communciation with her. 

The reining trainer I know never jerked a bit in a horses mouth, never made a horse do anymore spinning than necessary once the horse learned what was expected and certainly never made a horse slide into a fence or wall for a sliding stop. Plus, he never asked his horses to carry their heads in the "peanut-roller fashion".


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## RoyalAmbience (May 26, 2011)

*Epona.tv*

Just to set things straight: The video's where taped by the Danish online Horse Magazine www.epona.tv. The video's where taped by journalists, not PETA or any other organization.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Yes, I know fencing is the common way to teach a stop. It is stop, or else.....It requires extremely good timing on the riders part because it is horrible to allow the horse to hit hard, like on the video. A horse does as he is TOLD to do, often at great cost to themselves. If they are told to hit the wall (by bad timing) they will. I find poor timing to be extremely abusive....sorry.

The rest....well....it's interesting that people who rail at dressage rollkur are overlooking it here. Interesting.


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## candandy49 (Jan 16, 2011)

Allison Finch said:


> Yes, I know fencing is the common way to teach a stop. It is stop, or else.....It requires extremely good timing on the riders part because it is horrible to allow the horse to hit hard, like on the video. A horse does as he is TOLD to do, often at great cost to themselves. If they are told to hit the wall (by bad timing) they will. I find poor timing to be extremely abusive....sorry.
> 
> The rest....well....it's interesting that people who rail at dressage rollkur are overlooking it here. Interesting.


I did notice the dressage rollkur over flexion of some of the horses in the videos. The reason being that a lot of members here are not familiar with the extreme over flexation of a rollkur neck. A rollkur neck is an extremely ovely flexed neck about midway between poll and withers of the horse. It is an overwhelmingly inhumane tactic.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Allison Finch said:


> Yes, I know fencing is the common way to teach a stop. It is stop, or else.....It requires extremely good timing on the riders part because it is horrible to allow the horse to hit hard, like on the video. A horse does as he is TOLD to do, often at great cost to themselves. If they are told to hit the wall (by bad timing) they will. I find poor timing to be extremely abusive....sorry..


I agree. I've NEVER seen fence to be used to teach to stop in either english or western barns out here (although I CAN accept it in case of emergency as a last resort). To me both - fencing and jerking - did look like "quick fix" to the problem, not like an actual _*training*_.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

I don't know much about the training behind sliding stops, but I visited a reining facility where my friend's horse was being trained several years ago and they were giving lessons to teens which included driving trained horses into the wall. I didn't think much of it and never saw it ever used again until just now. As someone who doesn't compete in reining or train horses for it, I find it intrusive to question their methods. Someone who is truly passionate about finding out whether a training method is necessary or not (because abuse is never _necessary_, and some are seeing this as abuse) will practice the discipline for themselves or take lessons from a trainer who can further explain why certain methods are or are not used. As someone stated before, someone who doesn't ride and isn't a horse person may see a lot of things we do as abusive. The same can only be said for a person who just rides trails watching someone who does high-level reining, dressage, or anything else.

The people in those videos, at one point or another, were told that what they're doing is how it's supposed to be done, and probably don't know any different. They're probably trying to accomplish something practical, they are just doing so impractically (in some eyes).


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> I agree. I've NEVER seen fence to be used to teach to stop in either english or western barns out here (although I CAN accept it in case of emergency as a last resort). To me both - fencing and jerking - did look like "quick fix" to the problem, not like an actual _*training*_.


Until this video I had never seen it western before (but I am not a reiner). I have however seen it multiple times in english. Usually after a line of fences. The rider continues straight to the wall and halts.....


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

As a note, when Craig slid his horse to a stop and then immediately began sawing on her mouth (so much so that he was standing out of the saddle) my jaw dropped. A good example of impracticality.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

farmpony84 said:


> Until this video I had never seen it western before (but I am not a reiner). I have however seen it multiple times in english. Usually after a line of fences. The rider continues straight to the wall and halts.....


Yup.

Common practice used by less than knowledgeable trainers teaching the next round of riders, some of which will go on to teach the same practice down the road. :roll:


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

farmpony84 said:


> Until this video I had never seen it western before (but I am not a reiner). I have however seen it multiple times in english. Usually after a line of fences. The rider continues straight to the wall and halts.....


I trained dressage and event at a fcility that had multiple disciplines. They had a reining trainer and a working cowhorse trainer. BOTH used walls to train stops and I have seen some crashes as a result of this technique. Both were world class trainers, not hacks.

I rarely see this in my discipline. Maybe in hunters? If you "fenced" any of my horses, it would not work. They would all simply jump the fence. A wall would be unthinkable as the first point of contact would have to be the horse's head. Unthinkable.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

Allison Finch said:


> I trained dressage and event at a fcility that had multiple disciplines. They had a reining trainer and a working cowhorse trainer. BOTH used walls to train stops and I have seen some crashes as a result of this technique. Both were world class trainers, not hacks.
> 
> I rarely see this in my discipline. Maybe in hunters? If you "fenced" any of my horses, it would not work. They would all simply jump the fence. A wall would be unthinkable as the first point of contact would have to be the horse's head. Unthinkable.


If I am not mistaken, this is the method that a girl supposedly used when he horse bolted after a jump, and instead of stopping, the horse hurled itself over the fence and landed on the girl, causing fatal injuries. That's what some speculated had happened, because that's what the girl had been taught do. But of course no one knows for sure, because no one was there. It makes sense though.

In that case, however, it would have been used as an emergency stop as opposed to a training thing.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

farmpony84 said:


> Until this video I had never seen it western before (but I am not a reiner). I have however seen it multiple times in english. Usually after a line of fences. The rider continues straight to the wall and halts.....


Wow! That sounds scary! I don't know... May be I guess... But I still suspect any trainer I worked with would kick my butt if I'd try that. 

BTW, I've been in known reining barn in area (they compete a lot, winning too :wink: ) and I havn't seen any "fencing".


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Spyder said:


> Yup.
> 
> Common practice used by less than knowledgeable trainers teaching the next round of riders, some of which will go on to teach the same practice down the road. :roll:


Right, I'm not saying it's correct or anything, just saying it's not an only western thing. I haven't seen it in the western pleasure world but I would think that with the speed at which these horses lope, they'd have agood 5 minutes to decide to stop before actually reaching the wall...

I have to admit, while I LOVE watching the reiners compete, I hate warming up in the same ring as them. They make me nervous with all the bursts of speed and the sudden stops, spins etc. Nothing against them and I don't know anything about that training world so I can't defend or slam them. Just must admit I do like to watch them!


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Subing


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## ledge (May 23, 2011)

Y'all must realize this Peta and their shadow side groups have the same goal... horses shouldn't be ridden, so they will use what ever yellow journalism they can to shine a poor lite on equine activities.

Sad thing is ..... if I stop riding my horses they get depressed, they love to go and be ridden its their job.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Please note I am speaking to the Craig Schmersal video:
Unfortunately there are those in a sport that are a disgrace to it. I did not like what I saw in the video - the point of a great reining horse is to move off feather-light aids. The video got my blood boiling a little. 
Disclaimer - I understand corrections, and the need for a spur here and there. I do not understand the need for constant _hard _corrections, making the horse back so far off the bit its head is in the Rollkur position. 
...it's kinda like watching what's at the top of dressage nowadays too....
I definitely understand fencing.... what I do not understand is the need to stand up in one's stirrups and see-saw a curb bit as hard as you can - Craig was bracing and not even just lightly see-sawing... he was yanking the reins as hard as he could muster. 
Disgusting.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> I do not understand the need for constant _hard _corrections, making the horse back so far off the bit its head is in the Rollkur position.
> .... it's kinda like watching what's at the top of dressage nowadays too....



I thought the same thing.

So this is the rolkur of western riding I guess.:?:


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I understand that these videos are out there for the shock value - but these are videos that clearly show what the rider is doing.... and I don't agree with the training methods. I agree that they are not "abusive" in the classical sense, but they are not kind methods either, and I can say for sure that I am disgusted by what I saw in the C. S. video at least.... I don't really want to waste my time watching the others. 
We all have our bad moments.... we can all have moments where we aren't shown in the best light.... but this isn't just a few bad moments, this is bad horsemanship.


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## IslandWave (Nov 25, 2009)

Well put, JDI. :nod:


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

The jerking on the horses mouth and riding overflexed in a CURB no less made me sick to my stomach. As for the fencing, well, I really thought the sliding stops were taught with a little more finesse than that but I suppose putting a fence in front of a horse will make it stop quicker if your leg/seat cues are not effective.

It is so sad to see these types of things at the top level of competition, no matter what _type_ of competition it is. All diciplines have their dark side, dressage, SJ, eventing, barrels, cutting, polo - everything.

But when you see the professionals not practicing what they preach, where does that leave the rest of us? I do not know much of reining but my understanding _was_ that the horse responds to the weight of the reins and everything is communicated through the seat and legs. Well what the hell is going on when the pros aren't doing this by ANY stretch of the imagination? It makes the theory look unattainable for everyone else who aspires to reach those levels. "If those at the top can't do it that way, how could I possibly be capable?" In essence, it is condoning that type of riding and even encouraging it, which is disgraceful, nothing less.

As for the video being an animal rights video, well, Epona TV (if you actually go to their website) is an internet channel that broadcasts equestrian competitions using equestrian journalists. They even have instructional videos on how to ride more effectively. They have a dressage and a jumping section with articles and interviews with those at the top of their sport, hardly an organization that is trying to get people to STOP riding horses. I didn't see any association with PETA either, if anyone has any proof of that they are more than welcome to correct me.

Are they an animal rights group? Perhaps. But not an extremist group by my reasoning.

Regardless, even if this WAS extremist animal rights propaganda, so what? The problem with the extremist groups is NOT the photographic/video evidence that they compile. The problem is the way these groups go about distributing, broadcasting and explaining the videos.

The videos themselves are not doctored.

So make up your own minds as to whether they are acceptable or not. Put it this way: If that was YOUR own horse being ridden in that manner, how would you feel about it? Even if the horse has had years and years of training, would you want your own horse's mouth yanked off like that? Ridden with it's nose to it's chest? Everyone has their own line.

If I saw anyone treating my horse like that I would drag them off the horse, put a curb bit in their mouth and saw on it to see if they liked how it felt. No horse of mine will EVER see that type of 'riding'.

JMO.


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## ponyjocky (Apr 12, 2010)

This is all making me kind-of sick.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

Correction... hmmm if that jerking is correction then I'm a bearded gnome! That wasn't correction as I was taught at any rate. If it were my horse he yanked like that I'd give him a yank right off her and an a** kicking to go with it! She looked so unhappy 
Fencing, well I can see the logic behind it (although I don't agree with it), but I can't see the need if the horse is adequately trained!
The dressage videos, well I just can't get past the crick in my neck from trying to touch my head to my chest and hold it there for more than a minute.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

MajaLove said:


> I have a feeling that maybe it is because western is from America and a lot of you are from American. You are used to watching it and maybe the whole questioning traning methods has not reached you yet.


I am not American, but I live here, and this offended me. You are arrogant to think we are ignorant.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Sarahver said it all!! If it was my horse being ridden that way, I would pull the rider off.


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## inaclick (Jun 6, 2010)

No matter if I had seen this with my own eyes or just these videos, it would still had shocked me in a negative way, so I do believe it's a bit over the top to accuse the OP of being the evil minion of whatever cuckoo organisation. :-(

If you say this comes from my lack of experience in riding, I completely submit to this statement, starting from the premise that I am indeed a (forever...:?) beginner rider. However, if this is the case of the OP as well, I doubt his intentions were malicious, I guess the whole image simply shocked him / her


MajaLove, I believe the wording of some of your statements might have ticked off few people around here. If this was not your intention, perhaps try and rephrase the whole thing; nobody is really grudgy around here. 
I opened quite a while ago a similar thread asking about low headset, barrel racing and a few other things that als seemed peculiar to me and people were very helpful and detailed in their explanations.

As long as you don't start off with an attitude like "oi, you tarts, wth you're doing to those horses over there?" everyone is very patient in explaining why what for and how


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

The language barrier could be a big factor as well. The OP stated that English is not her first language - I do not think she meant to offend anyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I do have to agree with being a little shocked that we RAIL against rollkur so furiously and proudly, and yet don't see a problem with this? Quite frankly, I think I preferred the rollkur - the horses chin is still resting on his chest, but at least he's not being GOUGED in the mouth every three seconds.

That last slide, watch the entire anatomy of the horses back as he's SLAMMED into the bit and almost slides right under himself in an effort to stop and it's just chilling. This is the exact reason why people have low opinions of reiners and their ability to "endure" - start 'em at 2, and pull this crap on them and it's a wonder they last til 5. Everyone noticing the knee bandage as well? :-|

I don't understand what isn't abusive about this. If any one of us saw some backyard "hack" doing this to a horse, we'd be outraged. Do we just assume because he's a reputable trainer he must know what he's doing? 

And quite frankly, he knows **** well what he's doing wrong if he's freaking out SO bad. He's a top trainer, of course people are going to video tape him. If you have something to hide, you shouldn't be training, plain and simple.


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## SidMit (Jun 4, 2010)

I have not see a lot of reining since a friend of mine got out of it years ago. However, I do not remember the whole chin tuck thing when I was watching. I had seen this video before, and I could not finish it as it sickened me. I did not watch any of the others. I am not a crazy PETA person, but I have always objected to an unnatural head carriage. Peanut rolling drove me insane. I really did not understand why he was cranking on that poor mares mouth.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Good grief, head to his website and it's just a plethora of some great training.

I am confused as to when reining took the direction of trying to look like a 70's western pleasure horse? :-|






ETA - He's gone and removed all his other 2 year old reining videos. Wonder why?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

MM, the knee guard is as common in the reining world as bell boots - it's to protect the knee on their weaker spin side. 
Unless of course it is a bandage - but we can't make that distinction from that video I don't think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

My bad. When I see equipment on just one leg, I assume it's due to an injury or weakness of sorts. Wouldn't it make more sense to have them on both legs to protect in both directions?


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> My bad. When I see equipment on just one leg, I assume it's due to an injury or weakness of sorts. Wouldn't it make more sense to have them on both legs to protect in both directions?


Most reining horses only hit themselves in the knee with their opposite leg in one direction. :wink: The other side isn't usually a problem. They just have a "weak direction" where they interfere.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I was going to comment... but quite frankly I am tired of all this...


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Ray MacDonald said:


> I was going to comment... but quite frankly I am tired of all this...



Silence is golden sometimes.


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## shmurmer4 (Dec 27, 2008)

Spyder said:


> Silence is golden sometimes.


..........


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> And quite frankly, he knows **** well what he's doing wrong if he's freaking out SO bad. He's a top trainer, of course people are going to video tape him. If you have something to hide, you shouldn't be training, plain and simple.


I wondered this myself. Also, if this is what is done at an International competition, where it is safe to assume that there will be an audience and possibly video cameras, I shudder to think what goes on behind closed doors :?



Ray MacDonald said:


> I was going to comment... but quite frankly I am tired of all this...


I am not sure if you just have an especially dry sense of humour, are a wiz with oxmorons or just don't know how funny this statement is. A little like when you find a blank page on a form/test/exam and there, _printed_ at the top is "This page intentionally left blank."


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

What exactly is there to be quiet about? If people were quiet about practices that shouldn't be done... well good Lord I'd hate to think where we'd be.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

^^Which is precisely the same thing I was getting at. :wink:


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Apparently enough people have spoken up, I'm glad to say:



> *STATEMENT ON FEI WORLD REINING FINAL, BÖKEBERGS GARD, SWEDEN*
> 
> 25 May 2011
> 
> ...


 
I'm not sure what kind of a difference it will end up making, but at least it is being acknowledged that something miiiiiight just not be right.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Not much JDI, I think something similar was already in place.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

One can dream, right? Ha!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Well at least it means that the powers that be are aware of what happened and may take steps to prevent it happening again in the future. Bureaucracies are notoriously slow with deliberations and changes to policies but this shows they are at least concerned.

Interesting that warnings were issued by the stewards and ignored, so much of the training really was considered inappropriate enough for the stewares to step in but the egos of some of the competitors meant that they felt within their rights to ignore the stewards?

Incredible.

Lastly, I am by no stretch of the imagination an animal rights activist, never had anything to do with any groups, never will. However I do care _greatly_ about animal rights and seeing these types of videos is upsetting to me, no matter how many people might say 'it isn't abusive', or it is 'done all the time' or 'worse things happen than that' or 'it's an animal rights group so don't pay any attention' I would still be upset. Like I said before, everyone has their own line that is crossed with regard to animal welfare, for me that line was well and truly crossed in these vids! What a shame that PETA has muddied the name of animal rights with their hysterical explanations and campaigns. No doubt some of their footage is also shocking and worthy of review but they ruin their credibility in their broadcasting of it.

I thought this comment was spot-on: 



codacalico said:


> ... just as you would not want a whole discipline being dragged through the mud by a singular example of poor training, neither should the concept of animal rights be dragged through the mud by PETA.


As the above statement shows (thanks JDI for finding that!) sometimes _good_ can come out of the publication of footage and asking of opinions, whether it is an animal rights group or not. Court of public opinion can be powerful.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I have a strong dislike for rollkur, regardless of who is on the back or the type of saddle. I think it qualifies as abuse: "to treat in a harmful, injurious, or offensive way: to abuse a horse". I doubt it normally causes physical injury, but I certainly find it offensive. And if anyone yanked on my horse's head like that, they wouldn't be long in the saddle. If my horse didn't remove them, I would.

Fencing: I've now had a whopping 5 lessons in western riding, and we'll sometimes trot to the fence and stop. However, the purpose is to train us as riders, not to train the horse. The instructor is looking for the right sequence of cues with a precise stop point. I've also done it with a pole on the ground or a cone.

Usually, the fence is there to make it easier for a beginner like myself to set up the next cue - normally a turn on either the haunches or front. The horse already knows how to do it, but it is easier for a new rider to get the cues right when the horse knows he isn't supposed to go forward. The new rider can screw up a little and still get the sequence completed.

As used by my instructor, it is about teaching the rider, not the horse. I might, however, try it with Trooper. He knows how to swing his rear end around, but doesn't seem to know how to settle back and swing his front. He prefers to try to walk off to the front, so a fence would take that option away from him while learning what I'm asking him to do. It would be an aid to initial training.

I don't do reining or sliding stops, nor will I. Like dressage, it wouldn't advance me to where I want to go. And in any competitive sport, you can find folks taking shortcuts or doing things I'm not comfortable with in order to win. That is true of weightlifting, running...and riding.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Regarding fencing - I understand the application ... But watch the C.S. video and you can see the horse being asked almost too late, the horse's hind legs have to backpedal on its sliders to stop from falling over or running into the wall.
I, too, would never consider myself an animal rights activist - a bleeding heart sometimes maybe - but some things are not okay with me. This is one of them. 
Every sport has its skeletons. In reining, this is pretty well it. Oh, this and some of the lovely bits that some trainers use, such as mule bits, on a regular basis when a horse needs to be "lightened up."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I feel calling this not abusive is comparable to the issues in Canada were facing with rape, and several people coming under fire for calling "date rape" or rape between consenting partners (boyfriend/girlfriend, wife/husband) a "lesser" form of rape then "actual" rape.

No it's not the same as deliberately tying a horse up and beating him, but at what point do we become so desensitized that deliberate pain being inflicted on an animal is seen as "a form of training" and somehow acceptable?


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I agree MM! It's all pretty sad when people say "Oh, I've seen worse" So it makes it okay because it could have been worse...


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I watched both reining videos. The only thing I think was overkill was the guy in the second video being so heavy on the horse's mouth. I wouldn't personally jerk a horse like that. BUT, I didn't see anything "shocking" going on there. And running the horses to the fence I see every time I watch RFDTV (a rural TV channel that shows a lot of western training/riding).

I didn't have time to watch all those dressage videos, but I personally don't like anyone, of any discipline who is heavy on the horse's mouth and riding the brakes. A lot of English riders seem to "ride the brakes" and have a lot more contact than I *personally* feel is acceptable. But that is one of my pet peeves, for any riding discipline, is being hard on the horse's mouth.

So I dunno. I personally hate seeing anyone riding their mouth in any form. 

But no, I didn't see anything shocking about the reining videos. Maybe when the rest of the horse world gets cleaned up, we can move on to reining, but I actually think it is one of the "cleaner" riding sports out there. I think we can probably debate "cruel" training practices in the warm-up ring in basically ANY show ring around the world. Don't you think? Dressage, Western Pleasure, heck, even Halter classes.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I agree with whats been said about "cleaner" riding sport. There are many rules and regulations of tack, how the horse is presented, etc etc that go into the well being of the horse. For example. I know that there is a rule I think it's NRHA but I'm not 100% on that ( I will check once I am home) that states over 8 spins is considered inhumane and you will be asked to leave the grounds.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

.Delete. said:


> that there is a rule I think it's NRHA but I'm not 100% on that ( I will check once I am home) that states over 8 spins is considered inhumane and you will be asked to leave the grounds.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



In dressage competition a canter pirouette cannot be performed more than 2 full circles together and I believe that holds for the warmup as well.

So spins/turns are something that has been addressed by the FEI. That video showing the continuous spins is clearly a violation.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

trailhorserider said:


> But no, I didn't see anything shocking about the reining videos. Maybe when the rest of the horse world gets cleaned up, we can move on to reining, but I actually think it is one of the "cleaner" riding sports out there. I think we can probably debate "cruel" training practices in the warm-up ring in basically ANY show ring around the world. Don't you think? Dressage, Western Pleasure, heck, even Halter classes.


I find this ridiculous. Because other sports are worse, we should somehow leave ONE abusive jerk alone? Dressage is renowned for in general being a pretty fair, and humane sport - does that mean we ignore rollkur being performed by a few because in general it's a "good" discipline? Do we ignore all other discipline infractions because Big Lick TWH is the most abusive discipline and everything pales by comparison?

I don't think anybody is saying reining needs to be "cleaned up", so much as if the rules allow for this kind of blatant mistreatment of an animal in the ring, why shouldn't we ask for modification to prevent it, even one time? Hunter/jumper rings DO have rules about "excessive whip use" and anybody could call into question the "actual" abuse of hitting a horse with a flat ended leather crop but the INTENT is still the same - to terrorize an animal into behaving which is unacceptable by virtually any standard these days.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I find this ridiculous. Because other sports are worse, we should somehow leave ONE abusive jerk alone? Dressage is renowned for in general being a pretty fair, and humane sport - does that mean we ignore rollkur being performed by a few because in general it's a "good" discipline? Do we ignore all other discipline infractions because Big Lick TWH is the most abusive discipline and everything pales by comparison?
> 
> I don't think anybody is saying reining needs to be "cleaned up", so much as if the rules allow for this kind of blatant mistreatment of an animal in the ring, why shouldn't we ask for modification to prevent it, even one time? Hunter/jumper rings DO have rules about "excessive whip use" and anybody could call into question the "actual" abuse of hitting a horse with a flat ended leather crop but the INTENT is still the same - to terrorize an animal into behaving which is unacceptable by virtually any standard these days.


What exactly makes him an abusive jerk? The jerking on the horse's mouth? I said that is one of my very biggest pet peeves, no matter what the discipline. So we agree there, right? 

I suppose I was expecting to see something worse based on the outrage of the OP.

I guess I am a little less hard on reining as a sport, because the horses are allowed to actually move out, and on a loose rein, most of the time. I would rather see that then the unnatural movements of something like western pleasure. And dressage is beautiful, but it looks very stressful for the horse. No, abusive people shouldn't be allowed to get away with it. But, personally, I think a lot of other "stuff" we allow in competition is abusive too, and probably much worse. :-(


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Have you seen a born and bred Western Pleasure horse move naturally? They actually move completely different then the average stock horse, and although the show ring shows "extreme" examples, the gaits themselves are not unnatural to the horse.

Again, a lot of Western Pleasure training involves yanking on the face to make the horse lower it's head - a method that invokes outrage in the equine community when it's done publically and/or the offender is caught.

I think the outrage comes from the pure audacity of a big name trainer doing this in a public warm up ring. We KNOW these things go on behind closed doors, and there's a reason way - because continuously inflicting pain on an animal to force it to submit is as unacceptable as beating your children these days. And then HE has the NERVE to threaten to sue other people - why, because he's a big yutz and didn't think what he did in Sweden would make it's way to the US?

It starts small and becomes huge until you have disgustingly abusive practices becoming common place because nobody spoke up. I'd rather speak up on a hundred little things then let them become a big thing we all ignore because we're desensitized to it.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Have you seen a born and bred Western Pleasure horse move naturally?


Truthfully I haven't. Just videos that show up on here occasionally of horses that look lame, 4-beat, and move like crabs. :evil:


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## tntgoldengirl (Sep 19, 2010)

How can anyone be happy with any part of these videos. This guy I calls himself a "trainer" and does this stuff not just to this horse in the video. He's going to do this same method that he just unknowingly showed to everyone in this video to the horses he trains. It's cruse and he's ruining that horses mouth buy yanking on it, and more problems I could list. His hands are going all the way back to hips. Worst of all hes passing on this horrible horseman ship on to other people that don't know better.


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

I love how new members that have less that 50 posts, are coming out of the wood works.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

trailhorserider said:


> Truthfully I haven't. Just videos that show up on here occasionally of horses that look lame, 4-beat, and move like crabs. :evil:


I understand, I dislike that as well. I try to carefully weigh the differences between training methods I dislike, and methods that inflict actual pain on an animal that doesn't understand. To me, this is no more different then someone whipping their horse repeatedly for refusing a jump. I just find any method that employs pain as a training technique absolutely deplorable. 

I think we're both on the same page, we just get there in different ways.


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## ledge (May 23, 2011)

I pulled my NRHA rule book nothing about excessive spins, but you can be tossed for abusing the horse, disrespecting the judge and a few others.

The Port is max 3 1/2" long 8 1/2" shank on the bit

Not sure about the 8 revolutions on a spin thing i couldn't find anything in the 2010 rulebook... all the patterns its 4 in each direction with each direction your horse should end up in a certain position with point deductions for over/under spin.....

as for the low post count i just joined if you don't value my opinion do not read my posts


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Ledge, I value your opinion. The number of posts have absolutely nothing to do with how good a rider/teacher/trainer you might be. It only shows you just found your way to this excellent (and contentious) forum. Welcome to the craziness!!

Remember, old timers, you were new here once, too.


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

ledge said:


> I pulled my NRHA rule book nothing about excessive spins, but you can be tossed for abusing the horse, disrespecting the judge and a few others.
> 
> The Port is max 3 1/2" long 8 1/2" shank on the bit
> 
> ...


I wasn't talking about you sorry. I was talking about the ones that have maybe 10 and there post could be taken in a way to start some thing. I do value your oppinion.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

MHS, some posters may add something of extreme value on their first post, and sometimes members can have thousands of posts, but those posts are all in the games section. Sometimes the threads that are the most controversial also have the most interesting dialogue and the most to take away from. 
Once again, the OP was very clear that English is not her native language, and so her delivery might not be what it was meant to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

If that guy were in a dressage saddle in a dressage warm-up, everyone would be saying how evil rolkur is and how competitive dressage is awful and posting pictures and vids of phillipe Karl on some inverted piaffing horse.
'thats just how we do things' has never been a valid excuse for dressage people in the overflexion debate, so I fail to see how it qualifies as a valid one for reiners.
I understand there are many good reiners in the international ring (just as there ate many good dressage riders and trainers competing internationally) and I am not speaking about the whole sport, but to me it shouldn't depend on the saddle and the attire as to what headset is deemed acceptable. Overflexion is overflexion, one discipline shouldn't be nailed harder for it than any other.
$0.02
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I think this fellow is disgusting for what he is doing. This discussion is going on on another forum I venture too, and MANY of them are just as appauled as I am.

I'd hate to see what he does with his horses while at home, when no one is watching.

The yanking on the mouth, the over cranked head, the spurring non stop - disgusting. I agree when another poster on the other forum said the he is no horseman, he's in it for the money, not the horse.


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## supermissdeedee (May 31, 2011)

Ahh I saw the second video on the fugly blog! Its not abuse, but it is bad riding and training that can, and will, hurt the horse.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

supermissdeedee said:


> Ahh I saw the second video on the fugly blog! Its not abuse, but it is bad riding and training *that can, and will, hurt the horse*.


I don't want to venture too much down the abuse vs. not abuse path as everyone has their own definition of it but I find it interesting that you say it _isn't_ abuse but it _will_ hurt the horse.

So what exactly constitutes abuse? Is it OK to hurt the horse in the name of training?

Not singling you out here supermissdeedee, the question is really posed to the wider audience.

I guess I ask because if I saw someone with my own two eyes treating a horse like that, yes I would consider that abusive and inhumane. Needlessly causing pain in my books is abusive, though I will be labelled a bleeding heart for saying so. I understand that not everyone feels that way and is entitled to their own definition. Is there a widely accepted definition?


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## Annnie31 (May 26, 2011)

To start with they are not training videos of the reiners, they are seasoned horses that are put through a routine warm up every time they are at a competition. While we all may disagree with the esthetics of the video one thing is certain. The horses are not flat eared, tail twitching, or unhappy. Everyone in various disciplines need to understand that we all chose our disciplines because we liked that particular discipline, and thus training, showing and warm ups all look different. These horses live for the pen and the slide stops and the flying lead changes. It is what makes them unique and while I dont own one, I can sure appreciate the dedication that goes into the actual training to make a world class reiner, dressage, hunter jumper etc. The videos are what they are and are rarely depicting the actual life of one of these horses. My self its Western Pleasure etc and I gotta tell you...overbridling a horse is common in all disciplines so we shouldnt be poo pooing anyone of these videos.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

If jumping off a bridge was common would you condone that as well? 

Again, what gets me is this is fine for reiners, but not in dressage. It's fine in a curb, but in a double bridle its borderline abusive to over flex a horse.

and the reason the horse isn't pinning its ears or acting uncomfortable is because its used to getting over flexed. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Darn tootin' right's I am going to poo poo this rider for what he is doing - this horse looks miserable, and that dramatic of overflexion is damaging!

Then to add the fact that this a-hole is hauling on the horses mouth while standing up in the saddle at the end of the slide, and numerous other times throughout the video - is *DISGUSTING! *

Then the poor horse has to endure the rider jabbing her in her sides non stop - and you say the horse isn't miserable? 

You know how painful it is when you jab your upper mouth, say with a crouton or a chip or whatever - it hurts like hell - so what this man is doing to this horses mouth, how does this differ? 

This man is no horseman - he has no care for the animals he makes endure this "training" practices. 

Love the knee brace on the horse too - that's a great added touch.

And the arguement that these horses live for the sport - I've seen MANY Reiners, and none have I ever seen inflict this type of "training" on a horse. I have never seen the reiners I've watched haul on their horses mouths like that, make the horse endure the negative effects of rollkur - I am disgusted. 

My Farrier is a Reiner, and a Roper, and he is just as appauled as I am.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> If jumping off a bridge was common would you condone that as well?
> 
> Again, what gets me is this is fine for reiners, but not in dressage. It's fine in a curb, but in a double bridle its borderline abusive to over flex a horse.
> 
> ...


I jumped off the Abel Lake bridge. Looking back it was probably a stupid thing to do but boy was it fun!

It's not ok to do this in AQHA either. They actually have really well written rules yet this type of riding happens quite often in all disciplines and types of shows:


Inhumane Treatment. 
​​Inhumane treatment of any horse (whether registered with AQHA or not) or any other animal on show grounds is strictly prohibited. Treatment of any horse will be considered inhumane if a person, educated or experienced in accepted equine training techniques, would perceive the conduct of an individual to be inhumane. Inhumane treatment includes, but is not limited to:​ 
*(1) *placing an object in a horse’s mouth so as to cause undue discomfort or distress;​*(2) *leaving a bit in a horse’s mouth for extended periodsof time so as to cause undue discomfort or distress;
*(3) *tying a horse up or around in a stall in the manner asto cause undue discomfort or distress;
*(4) *lounging or riding in a manner as to cause undue discomfortor distress;
*(5) *tieing or fastening any foreign object onto a horse, halter, bridle and/or saddle in order to de-sensitize the horse;
*(6) *use of training techniques or methods such as poling or striking a horse’s legs with objects;​*(7) *excessive spurring or whipping;
*(8) *excessive jerking of reins;​*(9) *excessive fencing;
*(10)*excessive spinning (defined as no more than eight (8) consecutive turns in either direction;
*(11) *poling (altering an obstacle while the horse is negotiating the obstacle);
*(12) *schooling over ramped oxers in reverse order (i.e.,from highest to lowest instead of lowest to highest);

*(13) *schooling using rails higher than four (4) feet;
*(14) *use of prohibited equipment, including, but not limited to, saw tooth bits, hock hobbles, tack collars or tack hackamores;
*(15) *use of any item or appliance that restricts movementor circulation of the tail;
*(16) *exhibiting a horse which appears to be sullen, dull,lethargic, emaciated, drawn or overly tired; or
*(17) *Intentional or negligent treatment which results in any bleeding.

This prohibition against inhumane treatment applies to AQHA members and non-members. AQHA members may be held responsible for the actions of their trainers, agents, representatives and/or employees. For violation of this rule, an individual may be disciplined, suspended, fined, denied AQHA privileges, disqualified, expelled from show grounds and/or expelled from AQHA.​


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I'm totally with you, MIE. I DO ride reiners and I would rip someone off my horse's back if they handled them that way. I've been riding reining, cutting & working cow horses for well over 20 years and I am appalled by how heavy handed CS is in this video. The essence of a good reining horse is to be light and responsive on a loose rein. The only reiners I've seen handled remotely close to this were those who were burnt out & anticipatory and rip through patterns if left on a loose rein.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> I'm totally with you, MIE. I DO ride reiners and I would rip someone off my horse's back if they handled them that way. I've been riding reining, cutting & working cow horses for well over 20 years and I am appalled by how heavy handed CS is in this video. The essence of a good reining horse is to be light and responsive on a loose rein. *The only reiners I've seen handled remotely close to this were those who were burnt out & anticipatory and rip through patterns if left on a loose rein.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When that happens then move them to a different discipline? Just curious.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Idk, I've never had one that way & IMO they shouldn't get that way if trained right, kinda like saying a horse can act like a nut because it's a barrel\speed horse....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ledge (May 23, 2011)

Sadly i've seen most of these done not at shows but away from shows.



farmpony84 said:


> *(1) *placing an object in a horse’s mouth so as to cause undue discomfort or distress;
> 
> ​*(2) *leaving a bit in a horse’s mouth for extended periodsof time so as to cause undue discomfort or distress;
> *
> ...


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> I'm totally with you, MIE. I DO ride reiners and I would rip someone off my horse's back if they handled them that way. I've been riding reining, cutting & working cow horses for well over 20 years and I am appalled by how heavy handed CS is in this video. The essence of a good reining horse is to be light and responsive on a loose rein. The only reiners I've seen handled remotely close to this were those who were burnt out & anticipatory and rip through patterns if left on a loose rein.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LIKE

I absolutely cannot stand how because everyone gets ruffled (mostly English people) over one video and one idiot trainer, we're somehow bashing reining. That logic is just so beyond me it's not even funny. We have plenty of Dressage riders on here who hate rollkur, does that mean they hate their own sport?

Thank you for giving a Western based opinion from a reiner's perspective!


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> I'm totally with you, MIE. I DO ride reiners and I would rip someone off my horse's back if they handled them that way. I've been riding reining, cutting & working cow horses for well over 20 years and I am appalled by how heavy handed CS is in this video. The essence of a good reining horse is to be light and responsive on a loose rein. The only reiners I've seen handled remotely close to this were those who were burnt out & anticipatory and rip through patterns if left on a loose rein.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't even do Reining and we're on the same page. 

And MM - there are many Western people who are all up in arms about this fellow, it's not just primarily English folk.


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## SeeingSpots (May 29, 2011)

> The ones who recorded it has been threatend to be sued by the riders in the video.
> But.. If the riders thinks that it is an okay way to ride - why do they want to sue anybody? Shouldent they instead stand up and explan why they do tihs?


Because they _know _that what they are doing is not right. That's why they are getting all defensive and upset. Instead of explaining their techniques and what they are doing. People usually only react this way if they _know_ what they are doing is inappropriate. Just my two cents. 

KJR 


​


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> LIKE
> 
> I absolutely cannot stand how because everyone gets ruffled (mostly English people) over one video and one idiot trainer, we're somehow bashing reining. That logic is just so beyond me it's not even funny. We have plenty of Dressage riders on here who hate rollkur, does that mean they hate their own sport?
> 
> Thank you for giving a Western based opinion from a reiner's perspective!


No problem. I don't care what discipline you ride, there is no reason to rip on a horse's face like that. For the record, so I'm sharing my disgust equally , rollkur bothers me a lot too. I've ridden english, did for many years & might in fact bust out the ol' Pessoa for a mare I have coming in to train (they have all-around intent for her)...now there will be some critique vids we can all have fun with! :rofl: 

There are problems in every aspect of equine sport. As long as there is money, awards & recognition there will be unsavory things that happen. Wouldn't it be great if every one just joined the school of common sense horsemanship????


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## LoganandMe (Jun 2, 2011)

I don't agree with this, no. I don't think its right.


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