# Hunter O/F critique



## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

So, I posted a critique here a couple weeks ago of my horse's first show. This weekend she had her second show. I got reserve champion again..which I'm so proud of, but I feel like she could have done better. She was in bit of a mare mood, and was taking off with me while I was schooling. But we got through it pretty well. 

She did excellent in the flat class, probably because she was tired. I thought I was going to get first, but the judge placed her second. Oh well. Unfortunately my sister wasnt able to get the flat class on video.

Here are two over fences rounds for critiquing. (click the image to view the video)



This class she stopped at a jump. The flowers on the other side of the jump got knocked over, and her being way too observant, noticed it and could not stop looking at it. Since she went over those jumps about 5 times already, I was kind of on auto pilot..so it was the perfect storm for a refusal. I was kind of embarrassed about it, but it was only her second show.


Thanks.


----------



## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

so the first thing i notice is that she doesn't seem to impressed by the fences. Also, there are some points where i cannot tell what the next fence is in your line, because you're not straight to it! As your fences get higher, you don't want to be buying space/strides by diving right or left!


----------



## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

You did not give your mare a very nice ride at all! On the wrong lead at times, breaking into a trot three strides out from a fence, zig zagging on entry and exit....

I am glad the fences are only small. Your mount did a wonderful job by not knocking _more_ rails despite your best efforts to give her the toughest possible set up at most fences. Many other horses would have refused more jumps than just one, but that is the benefit of riding a schoolmaster I suppose.

Sorry, sounds harsh I know. Work on strong entries and crisp exits, nice even lines towards the fence and maintain an even pace throughout.


----------



## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Thanks for being honest. After seeing the videos I noticed how wiggly she was in-between the lines. But this horse is in no way a school master. If you read, this was only her second show, and she's only been jumping for about 7-8 months. So that would explain the breaking. Plus she was in a good mood and was rushing and taking off before and after the fences. Hence why I was holding her back. 

Thanks for the critique
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zimpatico (Nov 5, 2010)

Erika, I do not want to be harsh or mean at all. Please don't be personally offended by my honest thoughts. I don't like it when a rider blames the horse for a bad round. In your opening post you listed several things your mare did wrong, and her attitude that day that caused her to do poorly. I see a nice mare in the videos that does need direction. You need to give her clear aids and very clear directions. Going on auto-pilot at your horse's second show when she is so new to jumping is not a good thing. Your mare looks like a lovely prospect. Sloppy riding on a green horse is in no way the horse's fault. In a schooling show with a green horse, I'd much rather see a rider take the time to set her horse up with balance and confidence than pushing her to win. I.e. when she comes off a fence on the wrong lead, bring her through a well balalnced simple change rather than running her through the corner on the wrong lead, hoping or pushing for a flying change. I would suspect that the refusal was due to the fact that she didn't know where she was supposed to be going and less about being distracted. She looks happy to have a job to do, but needs a strong leader so she can do her best.


----------



## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Im not offended, but I thought she did really well. I wasn't expecting a refusal. The flowers were knocked down on the ground and she just kept staring at them. I just kept riding like nothing was wrong. Then she stopped. I should have known she was going to stop, but like I said she jumped over that fence a few times so I thought she would ignore the flowers being on the ground and just jump it. And I wasn't pushing for a lead change neither. My trainer was yelling to just let her go. So I did what he said. Oh and trotting in corners was allowed on that division. It was a division for beginner horses. 

I didn't know I looked that sloppy. Now I know for next time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zimpatico (Nov 5, 2010)

Sorry Erika, I don't mean sloppy as in position or anything like that. Your position is lovely in the saddle. I just meant sloppy as in not setting her up for the best chance of success.


----------



## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

OK I take back the schoolmaster comment. She is an angel for trying at all those fences despite inadequate and unbalanced entries.

Well done on taking reserve champion and also for taking these critiques on the chin. With more training you two could make a nice team and I wish you both well.


----------



## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

I really do appreciated everyone's honesty, and I'm going to take it as a complaint that you guys think she looks like an honest horse, a schoolmaster even, in the videos. Because it took a ton of work to get her to even to jump at all. It makes me happy, because I put was the one that got her to where she is now in the videos. I know our rounds weren't wonderful, and I was hesitant to put these videos up to be critiqued.

I'm just glad she looks like a nice horse. I don't want to make excuses but...she was having a bit of an attitude that day, she is a mare, and you know their moods aren't always consistent. I was just consentrating on keeping her from taking off, and I think I was too worried about my striding, then anything else. 

Thanks again, and I will definitely work on coming up to the fences more straight, and keeping her at an even pace...but now I know for next time, and I have things to work on when I'm schooling at home.


----------



## Zimpatico (Nov 5, 2010)

Can't wait to see her next set of videos!


----------



## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Is there anything that I can do, such as exercises, to help her stay straight down the lines? Or something I can do to get a better approach? I can't really jump too much right now, because, all I have to ride in is an outdoor, and the ground gets kind of hard some nights. Maybe something with ground poles?


----------



## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

grids. ground poles. 
some dressage work will help too. lots and lots and LOTS of balance.


----------



## MudPaint (Aug 14, 2010)

You had moments where you can see what kind of team you guys will be (when you get there, I don't want to show against you). 

Till then, you as the more advance part of the team MUST ride every fence. You know what they say about making assumptions... haha. I personally have nothing against trotting corners. But it should be done in an organized manner. Half Halt, downward transition, at least 3 strides of a balanced trot, upward transition. 

What you need in the rounds are finesse. You can get over the jumps and you have a nice pace. LOOK for your turns before you make them. I had no clue what fence you were going to till you were a few strides out. On the center lines, you should be making a straight line from rail to rail, not and s shape unless it's a severely broken line. If you have a fence off the rail come off the rail approaching straight. Don't ride the rail, then swerve out to that fence then back to the rail. 

Between lines it's all about having a solid leg and hand. To me it looks like your horse dives for the rail. So block her with your outside leg at take off, so she is less liable to dive. Dressage or riding center lines can really help with straightening you out.

And one more thing... Elbows. Please unlock them. They are stuck out and your hands glued to your horse. It' looks pretty to some extent and helps your release, but gives you less control and communication. Very important for a green horse. 

Once you smooth out your lines, I think you'll be unbeatable. In which case I will be avoiding the shows you're at.


----------



## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

I totally agree with everything you said. I think I was subconsciously not keeping my leg on because she was being really fresh when I was schooling, but my sister said the same thing you did, about keeping my leg on, kind of use my leg to give her support rather than using it to make her go fast. 

My trainer also said the same thing about my arms. He said there is only so much my arms can stretch. So I should sit back and keep my shoulders back. I swore I was leaning back, but I wasn't. 

I never really practiced riding 5 stride lines like that, we (my sister and I) always make up courses with a 1 stride to a 3 stride, stuff like that. More of jumper courses, because my sister does jumpers. We also do a lot of gymnastics. And my horse is great at stuff like that. But next course we make up is going to have longer lines. I need more practice than my sister anyway. 

Thanks so much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

anyone else??


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I think everyone else pretty much covered it.

You need to keep doing flat work where you and your horse learn to canter not strung out. Then you can add shortening and lengthening your stride to fit what you need.


----------



## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> I think everyone else pretty much covered it.
> 
> You need to keep doing flat work where you and your horse learn to canter not strung out. Then you can add shortening and lengthening your stride to fit what you need.


I'm sorry for being ignorant, but what do you mean strung out?


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Disengaged. Instead of doing a real canter she is almost running.


----------



## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Disengaged. Instead of doing a real canter she is almost running.



Kind of like how her back legs look like they are floating along behind her? Because that is one of my biggest problems, I'm having a hard time trying to fix it.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Yes, exactly.

That is fixed by flat work.

She has to learn to use her back end instead of pulling it around with her front end. Once she learns that jumping will work better too.


----------



## Zimpatico (Nov 5, 2010)

Do you have access to any trainers with a dressage background? Some really basic dressage lessons might be beneficial at this stage of her training. Learning to use her hind end for power, rhythm, relaxation, lengthing & collecting, balance... Just a thought! I have a dressage trainer hop on my guy once a week, to get him more supple and forward.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I agree with Zimpatico. Dressage lessons would be perfect.


----------



## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Zimpatico said:


> Do you have access to any trainers with a dressage background? Some really basic dressage lessons might be beneficial at this stage of her training. Learning to use her hind end for power, rhythm, relaxation, lengthing & collecting, balance... Just a thought! I have a dressage trainer hop on my guy once a week, to get him more supple and forward.



Unfortunately no, and I've only took one dressage lesson in my whole life and that was about 10 years ago. 

So I've been kind of reading and teaching myself how to get her to use her back end...what I've been doing is a lot of trot canter transitions...and I've been cantering her in smaller circles, so she' doesn't really get a chance to open up too much. I guess it's been working, she used to trot in the back and canter in the front, and switch her back lead every 3 strides. But I do feel like it's taking forever. I know it doesnt happen over night though.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Doing trot canter transitions and such will only work if you are doing them right. And I am not saying you are not doing them right, I am just saying that it is just as easy for the horse to run through the transition as do anything else if that is what it is inclined to do.


----------



## Zimpatico (Nov 5, 2010)

My trainer has me to an exercise that helps get Zee in front of my leg, but it might work to sharpen your horse to wait and listen as well. We do a LOT of canter/trot transitions. 5 strides canter, 7 strides trot. It forces them to use their hind end for the upward and downward transitions, and they have to become very sharp to your aids. Someone else mentioned grid work and gymnastics, which is also very helpful. Another exercise we do occassionally is set up four ground poles in a fan shape. Striped poles work best. The inner stripe is spaced for collected trot, the middle stripe is spaced for working trot, and the outer stripe is spaced for lengthened trot. We work on a circle starting with working trot, then introduce the other spots on the poles. By the end of the exercise, I'm able to take him in a one position, and leg yield into another stripe (enter at working trot, and move him over into a collected or lengthened trot). My trainer can get creative!


----------



## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Doing trot canter transitions and such will only work if you are doing them right. And I am not saying you are not doing them right, I am just saying that it is just as easy for the horse to run through the transition as do anything else if that is what it is inclined to do.



I don't know if I'm doing them right neither. What I'll do is get a nice sitting trot going, and make sure she isn't pulling me down on the forehand, and I'll do some circles at the trot. Then in the middle of a circle I keep my same position, and pick up a canter, then canter around in a circle for a few strides. Then bring her back down to a sitting trot, then do it all over again.


----------



## Zimpatico (Nov 5, 2010)

There is also the one where you take four ground poles on at least a 20 meter circle, and place one pole at 12:00, 3:00, 6:00, 9:00. Ride the circle at the canter and it should help you find your rhythm between poles. If her stride is not in rhythm, you'll chip or take a long stride on the canter poles.


----------



## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_I know there have been a fair amount of comments on this, but just going to add what worthy my two cents will be. _

_First video: I know you commented that she was rushing towards the fence somewhere ^^ up there, but you had an opportunity to make a circle before coming to the first fence. You should have organized yourself a bit more before coming to the fence. After the first jump you zagged pretty hard. Hunters is about pretty and smooth. You would have been better to leg yeild her over to the wall, or more towards the track. You had plenty of room to have a good approach to the second jump. (If you open up your inside rein just a bit when going over a fence and "look" in the direction that you are wanting to go, you are more likely to get your lead.) The diagonal line looked a lot straighter then the first outside line (jumps 2/3). Coming into the last fence you were not very straight. I would finish a round with at least 1/2 to 3/4 of a circle at a canter, on the correct lead....even if it meant doing a simple change. During the course, I would do the same...simple change to get the leads, especially if you guys are just starting to show as a team._

_Second video: Not straight to the first fence. The approach to the second fence looks funny.....it isn't very smooth. It looks like you turned at the very top of the arena too soon, then realized your mistake. Go deeper into your corners and use the whole arena. When you go deep into the corners, you will have more time to slow down and get your canter back, which is what you need to do with a rusher. The white line was much better the second time you rode it, and I am going to assume that you guys are still getting used to striding. However, you should have slightly pushed/collected for that to make the striding fit.... She got 4.5 strides, and could have easily gotten the 4 with a bit of push, or a nice 5 with a bit of collection. It doesnt take much either way to make it the right striding. You totally dropped her in front of the fence that she stopped at about a stride out. You stopped riding to it, which was your fault. Then you came into it with her looking at it with what looks like to be no extra leg the second time. It was a smooth line though, and I really liked it. If you hadn't trotted in though, I think you would have had a hard time with the striding again._

_She looks like she will be a really good hunter mare given some more experience. Work a bit more on your striding....set a line up that you know is for a quiet 5 strides, and then do 5 strides....but also collect for 6/7 or push for a more flowing 4._

_You said your mare rushes, correct? Then set her up in the first corner and have her come back to you. It is the best way to have organization when you go to your next fence._


----------



## Zimpatico (Nov 5, 2010)

Erika, where are you located? Are you at a boarding barn with a trainer? I know of a few good dressage instructors that work with hunters & jumpers, but I don't know if your situation would allow an outside trainer.


----------



## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Zimpatico said:


> My trainer has me to an exercise that helps get Zee in front of my leg, but it might work to sharpen your horse to wait and listen as well. We do a LOT of canter/trot transitions. 5 strides canter, 7 strides trot. It forces them to use their hind end for the upward and downward transitions, and they have to become very sharp to your aids. Someone else mentioned grid work and gymnastics, which is also very helpful. Another exercise we do occassionally is set up four ground poles in a fan shape. Striped poles work best. The inner stripe is spaced for collected trot, the middle stripe is spaced for working trot, and the outer stripe is spaced for lengthened trot. We work on a circle starting with working trot, then introduce the other spots on the poles. By the end of the exercise, I'm able to take him in a one position, and leg yield into another stripe (enter at working trot, and move him over into a collected or lengthened trot). My trainer can get creative!



I actually do a lot of gymnastics. Usually about 8 bounces in then a 1 stride. Then we did the fan shaped ground poles to cavalettis to two bounces to two 1 strides. She is actually very good at gymnastics...and she works off your leg really well also, but only at the trot and walk.

Our biggest problem is cantering..I feel like everything else has clicked with us, except for cantering. I feel like once I pick up a canter we get all disorganized.


----------



## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Zimpatico said:


> Erika, where are you located? Are you at a boarding barn with a trainer? I know of a few good dressage instructors that work with hunters & jumpers, but I don't know if your situation would allow an outside trainer.



I've been with this trainer for way too long (he's like a dad) I would feel funny bringing someone else in. But I can talk to him and tell him how beneficial it would be to have some type of dressage lessons. I'm sure he'll consider it. Not only me, but my sister and other people I ride with would all benefit from it. He knows a lot, but he's mainly a hunter jumper person.

You can PM me some names if you want...


----------



## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Thanks Velvet! Sometimes she rushes sometimes she's fine. All depends on the day. She usually takes off after the fence if she's in a rushing mood..never usually before.


----------



## Zimpatico (Nov 5, 2010)

Maybe you could suggest something like a "Dressage for Jumpers" clinic at your barn? There was one around here last year. I'll see if I can dig up the info.


----------



## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Zimpatico said:


> Maybe you could suggest something like a "Dressage for Jumpers" clinic at your barn? There was one around here last year. I'll see if I can dig up the info.


Thanks, I really like that idea.


----------



## Zimpatico (Nov 5, 2010)

I'm thinking of something like this... Shows/Clinics - Willow Creek Farm

My trainer also does clinics in the area Katt Mills - Horse Trainer, Teacher, Professional | Services She could certainly organize something like a Dressage for Hunters/Jumpers if your barn is interested.


----------



## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Zimpatico said:


> I'm thinking of something like this... Shows/Clinics - Willow Creek Farm
> 
> My trainer also does clinics in the area Katt Mills - Horse Trainer, Teacher, Professional | Services She could certainly organize something like a Dressage for Hunters/Jumpers if your barn is interested.



I'm actually in Quakertown PA, both those places are pretty close. I'll mention this to my trainer tonight...thank you so much.


----------



## Zimpatico (Nov 5, 2010)

ErikaLynn said:


> I'm actually in Quakertown PA, both those places are pretty close. I'll mention this to my trainer tonight...thank you so much.


Then you have to come visit us!!!! Actually, you might be very interested in two upcoming clinics at my barn. One is a clinic with Daniel Stewart, former USET eventing coach and founder of the Ride Right program, the other is with Tea Uzman, an A circuit hunter/jumper. Let me know if you want any info! Daniel's clinic is 2/20 and Tea's clinic is next weekend.


----------



## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Zimpatico said:


> Then you have to come visit us!!!! Actually, you might be very interested in two upcoming clinics at my barn. One is a clinic with Daniel Stewart, former USET eventing coach and founder of the Ride Right program, the other is with Tea Uzman, an A circuit hunter/jumper. Let me know if you want any info! Daniel's clinic is 2/20 and Tea's clinic is next weekend.



Can I have info for both?


----------



## Zimpatico (Nov 5, 2010)

Sending you a PM


----------

