# Difference between uphill and downhill?



## DancingArabian

Uphill means a little taller in front and shorter behind. An uphill horse looks like he's climbing a little hill when he's standing on flat ground. A downhill horse is a little taller behind and shorter in the front, so he looks like he's going down a hill when standing in flat ground.
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## Kayty

To add, an uphill conformation is desirable in English horses. With Dressage in particular breeding with an uphill tendency in mind as it aids in a horse's ability to collect.
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## Saddlebag

Downhill causes the saddle to move forward until it's jamming the shoulder blades and the rider feels tilted forward.


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## jmike

how do you measure to see if the horse is either uphill or downhill?


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## SaraM

These are not my pictures, I just googled and tried to find some good examples so you could physically see it. I'm not saying any of these are necessarily 'good' or 'bad'; just pictures I found.

A downhill built quarter horse, see how much lower is shoulders are than his butt? Were assuming this horse is standing on level ground, he's rather extreme.

horse downhill conformation - Bing Images

This an example of being ridden downhill, or on the forehand. This is extreme too, maybe the horse has a physical reason for this, maybe its not using its hind end, there's lots of reasons beyond just conformation. 

horse on forehand - Bing Images


Here's a horse with uphill confirmation, you can see his whithers are higher than his hip point. Some of the pictures with the shoulders closer to the photographer give this look too, so some of it could be 'clever photography'.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...F5E7E7A3A75DB0560C6B0D4214A8&selectedIndex=38

Like Katy said, in dressage the goal is to get them off the forehand, and you can train them to sit in the back, but its much easier on a horse that's naturally built more uphill.

horse uphill trot - Bing Images


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## Prinella

http://www.horseforum.com/saddle-fitting-issues/some-times-near-enough-has-good-432162/#post5636786

In my first post here is a picture of my downhill mare. Look at the level of her withers and croup.
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## CandyCanes

My horse diddly is built slightly downhill. You can see it in the way he stands. As a dressage horse, he is not allowed to be on the forehand, so it was my job to make him work 'uphill'. 
Here is a picture of him standing... You will see, although his withers are higher than his croup, he is still built slightly downwards. You can't really see it if you focus on individual aspects of his conformation, you only really see it when you look at him as a whole. 










The way in which I get diddly working up hill, is to lunge him in side reins. As long as he is keeping the drive from behind, and not leaning on the side reins, it is a good solution, and I have found it to work.


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## Elana

A horse is up hill if the root of the neck is higher than the point of buttock. 

HOWEVER, if the hocks and Stifle is MUCH higher than the knee and elbow, the horse may WORK downhill. A horse that his a stiff coupling and weak rear end (genetic) will work on his forehand because it is physically difficult for that horse to get his hind quarters under him and work off his hocks and hind legs. A horse that has an overly straight hind leg will also work down hill because bending the hind leg and shifting weight rearward to it is a matter of difficult physics. A sickle hocked horse that is othewise well angled behind (they rarely are) may work well off the hindquarters initially, but the hocks will take the abuse just so long before they become curby and/or develop bone spavin. 

Here we take Diddly. This horse is not REALLY down hill. He stands a bit rectangular, with the height of the rectangle being a bit longer than the lenght (long legs). He has a stiffish coupling and lacks natural muscling below his point of buttock. It is easier for him to travel on his forehand, in spite of a nice shoulder and actually being quite close to level (look at the angle of the line from front feet to back feet and compare it to the angle for the line from point of buttock to root of neck). His knees are not way lower than his hocks either. He has a nice roomy hock behind but he has small, round knees and light bone and is tied in at the knee in front. He is pretty nice. 

There is a lot more to a horse traveling uphill (or forehand heavy) than actually BEING uphill or downhill in build. Those horses, like Diddly here, that are pretty close to level, usually travel on the forehand for a variet of reasons from training to riding to other physical flaws. 

I have not jumped in here as the discussion is interesting.. but it is NOT simplistic. When looking at photos, draw a line from back feet to front feet.. that is your level line.. and then draw the line from center of knee to center of hock (hocks are usually a little higher than knees) and then draw a line from root of neck to point of buttock. Compare the last line to the first line to judge a photo of a horse as up hill or down hill. 

Also look at the photo. If the horse's back bone is not parallel to the film plane, then the image is going to be distorted and untrue to judge.

BTW I like Diddly here. Nice horse.


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## CandyCanes

oh thank you elana  I wasn't expecting that at all! We should all be paying you for these lovely critiques!
He is starting to work more uphill now... Much improved since starting the use of side reins last Tuesday. Even at his worse, he's never FELT like he's working downhill. But at this time, he feels lime he's going up a hill, which is what I look for 
Again, huge thanks elana for taking the time to give him a little critique!
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## Elana

I accept cash..................................


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## CandyCanes

Well how is a couple of thousand dollars for you? Too little?  

btw, just wondering what tour reasons where for circling Diddlys croup area when you were drawing in your lines? I am not sure what is wrong with that area so please enlighten me!


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## Elana

That is his loin or coupling.. and it is very strong but also stiff (strong couplings, which I love, tend to be stiff and can make a dressage horse a bit difficult to collect).


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## dkb811

Avatar pic is of my downhill mare. Elana, I don't have 1000's to pay you but I sure do thank you for the critique awhile back!


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## Elana

Y'all welcome. I like to do critiques.. tho sometimes I have little time. If I "like" someone else's critique I am saying, "Yeah.. they addressed it, no need for my comments."


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## CandyCanes

Elana said:


> That is his loin or coupling.. and it is very strong but also stiff (strong couplings, which I love, tend to be stiff and can make a dressage horse a bit difficult to collect).


thanks again! You are an utter superstar! Diddly finds it very easy to come into the low frame I'm asking of him at the moment. He's doing well, and loves his dressage, so that's all the matters currently!


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## Elana

Diddly has the potential to do quite well. I would take him as far as your time and money let you. His issue will come at the higher level movements (Pirouette etc). I would train to that level anyway. He may not be a superstar at it, but you will learn hugely...


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## CandyCanes

Elana said:


> Diddly has the potential to do quite well. I would take him as far as your time and money let you. His issue will come at the higher level movements (Pirouette etc). I would train to that level anyway. He may not be a superstar at it, but you will learn hugely...


Oh yes, I plan on training him as far as I can. The ultimate goal for competition is Prix St Georges, which I've seen worse horses than Diddly do well at.


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## Elana

Have fun and do show us training videos of your progress!


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