# Sean Patrick vs. Clinton Anderson? (books)



## kayhmk

Hi all, 

I'm in a bit of dilemma whether I should get Clinton Anderson's _Downunder Horsemanship_ or Sean Patrick's _The Modern Horseman's Countdown to Broke_ as our new training guide. That is to say, I'd like to have something against which to check our progress and aid me when we run into a slump. I do have a trainer who visits every once in a while and plan on continuing with my eclectic mix of training tools, so the book would be only for extra help and a confidence boost.

The _Countdown_ seems interesting in a way it's ordered in small steps and covers a lot of ground. The "negative" would be that I'm not actually familiar with Patrick's methods and style. Also, don't have a roundpen. 

_Downunder_ on the other hand seems logical and familiar to me. The "negative" in this case would be that I don't know how much into detail the book goes (f.ex. would it tell me what to do when my horse won't turn in lungeing for respect?) and that I'm not too fond of the stick (having enough trouble with only the rope in my hands ).

*Which would you recommend getting (first)? Looking for any views which is better or how useful these have been to you. *
____________________

Background for those interested: 
I've started riding 17 years ago and have been interested in training (in a bigger scale) for about 13 years. I've had a few years off especially from training and my confidence has suffered. So, like any sensible person would, I bought a difficult 5 year old.  She has gone through horse-human basics (= all the way to riding every gait) but I've made pretty much a re-start with her these past months. Our biggest problem at the moment (in my opinion) is getting my horse's attention and keeping it more than a second at a time. 

A few examples of stuff I've used and studied before: roundpenning, Parelli, join-up, Leslie Desmond, Karl Ferdinand Hempfling, Piet Nibbelink, Chris Cox, Bob Avila, classical dressage training. 

My aim is to have a nice, soft and SAFE partner for everyday petting and (western) shows.


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## Thunderspark

kayhmk said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm in a bit of dilemma whether I should get Clinton Anderson's _Downunder Horsemanship_ or Sean Patrick's _The Modern Horseman's Countdown to Broke_ as our new training guide. That is to say, I'd like to have something against which to check our progress and aid me when we run into a slump. I do have a trainer who visits every once in a while and plan on continuing with my eclectic mix of training tools, so the book would be only for extra help and a confidence boost.
> 
> The _Countdown_ seems interesting in a way it's ordered in small steps and covers a lot of ground. The "negative" would be that I'm not actually familiar with Patrick's methods and style. Also, don't have a roundpen.
> 
> _Downunder_ on the other hand seems logical and familiar to me. The "negative" in this case would be that I don't know how much into detail the book goes (f.ex. would it tell me what to do when my horse won't turn in lungeing for respect?) and that I'm not too fond of the stick (having enough trouble with only the rope in my hands ).
> 
> *Which would you recommend getting (first)? Looking for any views which is better or how useful these have been to you. *
> ____________________
> 
> Background for those interested:
> I've started riding 17 years ago and have been interested in training (in a bigger scale) for about 13 years. I've had a few years off especially from training and my confidence has suffered. So, like any sensible person would, I bought a difficult 5 year old.  She has gone through horse-human basics (= all the way to riding every gait) but I've made pretty much a re-start with her these past months. Our biggest problem at the moment (in my opinion) is getting my horse's attention and keeping it more than a second at a time.
> 
> A few examples of stuff I've used and studied before: roundpenning, Parelli, join-up, Leslie Desmond, Karl Ferdinand Hempfling, Piet Nibbelink, Chris Cox, Bob Avila, classical dressage training.
> 
> My aim is to have a nice, soft and SAFE partner for everyday petting and (western) shows.


I'm not too sure who Sean Patrick is but I do follow Clinton Anderson's methods. I do have DVDs of his but not the books, the DVDs are a great training tool and shows you how to handle different situations. 
Maybe someone else here would have a better input then me....


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## Lwhisperer

I also use Clinton Anderson's methods. They just seem to make good sense to me, and he's very good at explaining and showing his methods in an easy to understand way. 

I don't know anything about Sean Patrick. So I would vote Clinton Anderson, but it's not a very well educated vote.


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## tinyliny

I really liked this book. Great diagrams and very simple , clear explanations.
I don't need to pay for Clinton Anderson's overactive ego.

BARNES & NOBLE | Problem Solving Volume 1: Preventing and Solving Common Horse Problems by Marty Marten | Paperback


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## Thunderspark

tinyliny said:


> I really liked this book. Great diagrams and very simple , clear explanations.
> I don't need to pay for Clinton Anderson's overactive ego.
> 
> BARNES & NOBLE | Problem Solving Volume 1: Preventing and Solving Common Horse Problems by Marty Marten | Paperback


LOL whoa!! was that a dig at Clinton Anderson?


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## Lwhisperer

That's why you use borrowed/used Clinton Anderson equipment, and don't pay his high prices.  I haven't bought anything of his, only borrowed his dvds from a friend, borrowed his books from the local library, and purchased "handy stick" and lead rope equivalents (exactly the same product, bu without the name) through a different company. I agree that he seems rather full of himself, but his methods do work. *shrug* Just my opinion. But I do agree there's no need to pay his prices.


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## tinyliny

Thunderspark said:


> LOL whoa!! was that a dig at Clinton Anderson?


'

Ya think? Yep, I had to put in a wee dig at him. I keep thinking, "everyone says he is like a God, he's so good, maybe I should watch some of his videos". so, I go to his website and watch one, but the prologue with flashing lights and camera angles and music that makes him out to be a super hero really turns me off. And the ads, and the way he swaggers up like he's doing you a real favor to be there and , . . I dunno. He probably has a good message, it's just me personally I don't care for his approach. He has what I call a very antagonistic or oppositional mental position; that training horses is like doing battle with them or something.


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## kayhmk

tinyliny said:


> Ya think? Yep, I had to put in a wee dig at him. I keep thinking, "everyone says he is like a God, he's so good, maybe I should watch some of his videos". so, I go to his website and watch one, but the prologue with flashing lights and camera angles and music that makes him out to be a super hero really turns me off. And the ads, and the way he swaggers up like he's doing you a real favor to be there and , . . I dunno. He probably has a good message, it's just me personally I don't care for his approach. He has what I call a very antagonistic or oppositional mental position; that training horses is like doing battle with them or something.


^have to agree to some extent, but not only on CA -- he's probably not even the worst offender (don't know, haven't seen his "polished" videos). 

Personally I've found that everybody (and I DO mean everybody!) in the horse training circles who have name quickly become more of a face of their concept. The Messiah of a money making machine. This also means that their methods get forced into these tiny, shiny little moulds with selling names. Like Parelli is totally shortlist-oriented. Whether this kills the effectiveness and usability of their methods... well, I don't know. It's just the way marketing works and it wouldn't work, if people didn't really respond to that sort of manipulation through subliminal and often overt tricks. 

I like quiet, take-your-time horsemanship. I come from a culture where openness is not a mainstream value. These things don't sell, these things won't gather a following of enthusiastic customers. Thus, sadly, I've had to bite my tongue and make an effort to ignore all the American showmanship and try to find the substance deep down somewhere. If there is any. 

On tinyliny's other post, I've read the Marten book and I own the vol 2. What I remember from the vol 1, I found/find his books a bit too problem-oriented for my purposes right now. Looking more for a "from A to D through B and C" type of thing ATM.


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## Thunderspark

tinyliny said:


> '
> 
> Ya think? Yep, I had to put in a wee dig at him. I keep thinking, "everyone says he is like a God, he's so good, maybe I should watch some of his videos". so, I go to his website and watch one, but the prologue with flashing lights and camera angles and music that makes him out to be a super hero really turns me off. And the ads, and the way he swaggers up like he's doing you a real favor to be there and , . . I dunno. He probably has a good message, it's just me personally I don't care for his approach. He has what I call a very antagonistic or oppositional mental position; that training horses is like doing battle with them or something.


I was a club member back when it first started in Feb. 2007, he was not like that then, not all the lights/music and he seemed more down to earth.....I quit the club a couple years ago because his monthly DVDs were having commercials in them which they didn't for years.......probably some promotional guy told him to do that so he did.....it took away from him wanting to help people to wanting to sell to people....I still like his methods though.....


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## Lwhisperer

I agree completely with Thunderspark. He came from a small start... And then for some reason (managers, etc.), he's become much more commercial. Which is why I refuse to financially support him. Doesn't make him a bad trainer, but I feel that his intentions aren't as wholesome as they used to be.


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## bsms

I own both books. For a training guide, The Modern Horseman's Countdown to Broke: Real Do-It-Yourself Horse Training in 33 Comprehensive Steps is vastly better than "_Downunder Horsemanship"_. The second book was mostly about how someone had a problem with their horse, and CA solved it for them. The first book outlines a series of things in a reasonable order that a person can use to teach their horse all the things a reasonably well-broke horse should know. It is very clearly written, very practical, and each step says what the horse needs to be able to do before going on. For example, in basic roundpen work, it explains how many times you should expect a horse to be able to do X before you try more advanced stuff.

The book explains that how fast you progress depends on you and your horse. My mare, for example, still has tons of stuff to learn - but she has always been a very spooky, tense mare. So right now, almost all of our work is on trails getting her to relax. But as she improves, I'm starting to go back and look at things I can work with her on in an arena to improve her balance and understanding, which will also help her become a better trail horse.

I've got a lot of horse books, but Sean Patrick's is easily my favorite book on training a horse. There are steps that I, as a beginner, needed help to do. That is OK. I hired a trainer to get us past those points. There are other steps that help me 'ride out' my horse, so she doesn't become a horse who just knows forward, left, right, and whoa!


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## kayhmk

Thank you bsms! That was really helpful. My mare is also very tense, not really spooky but wary of things and takes a lot of time to learn. That's one of the reasons why specifics such as "horse should be able to do X Y times" are really appealing!

I was/am a bit worried CA's books are not really helpful as a guide, that they are more of brochures/showcases of his method and philosophy. So that you need to get the DVDs for really getting into it. As an outsider's opinion there just seems to be so many of them that I'm not really enthusiastic to spend all that money nor spend the time going through it all. (By comparison: _Countdown_ has only one AFAIK. )


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## bsms

Here is a screenshot of the table of contents from Amazon. It might give you an idea of how this book arranges things:










There are a lot of things I haven't tried yet with Mia. I like this because it gives me things I can work on when I think it is appropriate for her, and it isn't just "problem-solving". I was going to take a snapshot of my own copy, but...I can't find it. :evil: It wasn't a total loss, tho, since I found my second copy of "Commonsense Horsemanship". It is my second copy because I hadn't been able to find it for so long that I bought another copy last month.  Yes, I need to thin out and sort my books!


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## kayhmk

Haha, that sounds so like me bsms!  I'm waiting for the day I have to move out to have more room for books (it's closer than you'd think). My book wishlist is 300 titles long. :blush:

By looking at that segment of the book, it seems really good. I think my pony is very good at lesson #12, but #11 will mean a lot of work. From the situation we are in right now, I can see a clear path what to do. I really hope the content is at a level with the feel the table of contents gives me (**** Amazon/Google Books for not giving a preview!).


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## TheAQHAGirl

Personally, I'm with Clinton Anderson.

His books are very good and have a lot of pictures of what hes describing. Hes a good trainer IMHO.


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## kayhmk

Does CA's book have "troubleshooting" information? Some books tend to describe only how it should be done in an ideal case, but offer no help with corrections. 
What about "your horse is ready to proceed when" information? That's also pretty important to me.


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## Lwhisperer

I haven't personally read his books, but from what I've seen of his dvds, he's very clear about when your horse is ready to proceed from a certain lesson. Basically though, I've noticed that with each lesson, part of his advice is to continue to "refresh" your horse's memory on that topic as often as possible. *shrug* He does also have certain cues that he tells you to look for from your horse as to when they are grasping the concept... Is this what you are asking about? I have found that his mainstream books and dvds (that I've encountered, anyway) don't typically include "quick fixes" or troubleshooting. His methods are about working from the ground up, instilling respect and focus first, and then moving on to certain lessons. 

As far as corrections go, he states many times in his dvds that he tries to work with a horse that will NOT give him the "ideal" situation... Some trainers take a gentle, or already trained horse to show their methods on... Not Clinton. He takes a horse that is likely to act up or not react in the way that he/she should so that he can show you how to correct such behavior. I found that to be especially the case in his "colt starting" and "foal training" series. There is also a dvd set of his titled "Correcting Problems on the Trail." Not sure if that would help or not, as I see you want the information particularly for "everyday petting and (western) shows"... Perhaps it would help in trail comps? 

Hope this helps... Maybe someone else can better answer your question.


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## Dame Nuit

Who is Sean Patrick? Never heard of him in Europe...


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## EmilyJoy

Clinton Anderson all the way. I've read and watched Sean Patrick's dvd and book... It kinda made me irritated at some of the stuff he did... Like continual clucking to get the horse to move off of pressure. Clinton Anderson clucks, hits the ground, then whacks the horse if he doesn't move off of pressure.

He also has a ton of troubleshooting tips etc.

Just my 2 cents


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## Chessie

I just received the CA book for Christmas from my MIL, which was sweet. I just read it through, and I really liked it. It has a series of groundwork exercises, and then in saddle exercises with clear explanations of what the goal and purpose of the exercise is. I liked that the book is written around both an English and Western horse owners who work through the book as examples for the pictures. They give their input of what worked for them with the exercise and also what was tricky about it and what change they saw in their horses. There is also a section with "What the trainer might be doing wrong." and also, "What the horse might be doing wrong" which I thought was great for figuring out if it is me or the horse screwing things up and how to fix those issues.

It is built like building blocks and even says which exercises you should have mastered before attempting the next step.

I'm not that familiar with CA and I didn't find the book cloying, arrogant, or preachy. I thought it was well written, sensible advice that is easy to follow, and clearly laid out basic respect and control exercises laid out in a way that is easy to reference and digest.

I hope that helps.


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## operationemily

Hi there, this is kind of a late response but I've been using Sean Patrick's Count Down to Broke and I love it!! Super easy to follow and no fancy tools or terms. (like Parelli) I vote Patrick!!


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