# Deb Bennett article in Equus Magazine



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

So, I apparently subscribe to Equus Magazine, although I do not remember doing so ... and the May 2018 issue's feature article is by Deb Bennett, aka Doctor Deb Bennett PhD, called Mapping Milestones of America's Horse Breeds. 

This is a dense article about mapping the origins of the domestic horse from wild subspecies to the beginnings of the Quarter Horse in the USA -- about 10,000 years. It is filled with declarations of facts, but there are zero footnotes or cites, other than her own website. I have read a number of books on the origins of the domestic horse, and cannot remember anything even reminiscent of the information she presents here. 

She describes the "world's most important horse breed", the extinct English Hobby, a cold-blooded British breed related to the existing Kerry Bog Horse, and the foundation of virtually all warm-blood breeds. This is interesting, because I have never once heard of this world's most important horse breed, and I've been reading about horses for half a century now. The whole article is of a piece with the above. In a world without studbooks, or even much of a concept of separate breeds, which is the world of the majority of horses up until the late 19th century, how she can make so many blanket statements is a mystery to me. The larger outline -- native cold-blooded British breeds were bred to hot bloods from North Africa and the Middle East to develop the present-day array of warm blood breeds such as as the QH, Morgan, Saddlebred, etc. is very well documented, but the details are flummoxing.

I guess you can see that I am highly suspicious. My "does this jibe with what I know of how scientific articles are produced and published" alarm has gone off.

Google tells me the Deb Bennett has a 1984 PhD in vertebrate paleontology, worked at the Smithsonian, she teaches horsemanship and horse anatomy/conformation online and otherwise. She has a reputation as being arrogant and hard to get along with, and it appears that serious dressage people take issue with her theory of collection. She also has a strong fan base, in the horse clinic world. 

That's all I got. Anyone know more?


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

No, but I am interested in what others have to say.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Have you inquired with the magazine regarding peer-reviewed studies? I must admit, I find bloodlines of horses about as fascinating as bloodlines of royal families, but there is a bigger issue of credibility here, it seems.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Never been a fan of Dr. B.......sorry to have no more input than that!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

greentree said:


> Never been a fan of Dr. B.......sorry to have no more input than that!


Why not? (I never heard of her before).


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

I haven't heard of Deb Bennett, but an article claiming a revolutionary understanding of breed foundations certainly demands more substantiation than you describe. I have had respect for Equus magazine, and this makes me wonder if there is some connection between Bennett and one of the editors.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

She's been doing articles for Equus for many years now. I really enjoy them, actually. They are the main reason I keep my subscription! Before this series on the origin of different breeds, she did a whole series of articles on conformation. I agreed with her a lot in the conformation articles, but I really don't know much about the origins of horse breeds......in other words, I like her articles but I have no clue how accurate they are. 

One thing I really like about her, is that she stresses how all these studbooks and registries are a relatively new thing, and horses should be judged on their own conformation and merits and (god forbid) even cross breed if the goal is to produce a better horse. I sometimes get tired of the idea that only "purebred," registered horses are worthy of breeding. A lot of registries (like the AQHA) have only been around a brief time in the whole scheme of things.

Anyway, I like her articles, especially on conformation, but I really couldn't tell you how accurate they are. But I don't seem to find these in-depth articles in any other magazine.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

She is most often judged harshly due to her personality. So, her professional knowledge and credibility is rated by her likability, which is said to be low. People react to her being cold and arrogant and inflexible. 
I don't know if it's true or not, (her research OR her personality), but I do know that a woman has to be twice as nice and likeable as a man to have her research taken seriously.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I took a saddle fitting class and Dr B was one of the instructors. Well, they're right about the arrogant part. Her conformation knowledge is well known, some of her ideas and beliefs are pretty bizarre. Can't speak to her knowledge about how horses came to be, haven't followed her since I had the misfortune to meet her, more than 20 years ago. My like or dislike has nothing to do with her sex, she's just plain rude, condescending arrogant and very self centered.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I took a saddle fitting class and Dr B was one of the instructors. Well, they're right about the arrogant part. Her conformation knowledge is well known, some of her ideas and beliefs are pretty bizarre. Can't speak to her knowledge about how horses came to be, haven't followed her since I had the misfortune to meet her, more than 20 years ago. My like or dislike has nothing to do with her sex, she's just plain rude, condescending arrogant and very self centered.


Sounds like she has all the qualifications to be a clinician then ...:mrgreen:


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## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

I have followed her for years in Equus magazine and loved reading her articles. I even sent photos once, which were never used; those horses have long since died. I loved reading her articles about thoroughbreds and Morgans, and most lately, skeletons and teeth. I found her conformation series hard to follow, but I've never been any good at evaluating conformation. Part of the problem for me is what value to place on what--are sloped shoulders "better" than short cannon bones--that sort of thing. Conformation experts always talk about "balance" and I have a hard time figuring out if the horse is balanced or not.

About 4 or 5 years ago, she had a short series of articles about movement and conformation, and I was excited to see her put out the argument that "cow hocked" is not such a bad thing because a horse with well sprung ribs can move better if the hind legs extend out a bit. It's easy to fault a horse for being "cow hocked" but maybe we shouldn't. I like it when people push the envelope and not accept everything we're told.

I look forward each month to reading her articles. But you have a point that she does not cite anything. I always kinda thought that there are no citations because she does original research.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

knightrider said:


> I have followed her for years in Equus magazine and loved reading her articles. I even sent photos once, which were never used; those horses have long since died. I loved reading her articles about thoroughbreds and Morgans, and most lately, skeletons and teeth. I found her conformation series hard to follow, but I've never been any good at evaluating conformation. Part of the problem for me is what value to place on what--are sloped shoulders "better" than short cannon bones--that sort of thing. Conformation experts always talk about "balance" and I have a hard time figuring out if the horse is balanced or not.
> 
> About 4 or 5 years ago, she had a short series of articles about movement and conformation, and I was excited to see her put out the argument that "cow hocked" is not such a bad thing because a horse with well sprung ribs can move better if the hind legs extend out a bit. It's easy to fault a horse for being "cow hocked" but maybe we shouldn't. I like it when people push the envelope and not accept everything we're told.
> 
> I look forward each month to reading her articles. But you have a point that she does not cite anything. I always kinda thought that there are no citations because she does original research.


People who do original research cite the research upon which their research is based (which always exists), and their co-researchers, and their institution/s. My guess is that these conventions are too restricting for her genius, and in any case she is preaching to an uneducated audience, not the scientific community. She sounds like she has some real knowledge but it is mixed with her own unproven hypotheses to the degree it is hard to tell what is useful and what is horse poo. 

As for whether short cannons are better than sloped shoulders -- that's easy! Neither is better. They are both pieces of conformation which like all the other pieces, are only as good as the whole. And everything is a matter of degree.


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## Milestev (Sep 26, 2018)

I work at Davis and have vet friends in the area talking about a recent experience a working ranch had with Deb Bennett around the time this article was published. They hired her for a private medical evaluation on a horse and apparently she was totally â€˜out of itâ€™. She wouldnâ€™t look at the horse and kept insisting it be â€˜put downâ€™ which is apparently common per her own website forum when it comes to certain breeds (read: Arabians). Not sure why she took the job! She kept using her faith and quoting religious stuff, claiming she is â€˜Gandalfâ€™ the most dangerous but important person any horseman could meet. She had an analysis for every equestrian gesture in the LOTR films, used every opportunity to bring up the basis of Nazism in old horsemanship books. Everything went beyond the webâ€™s typical account of her condescending attitude, this was borderline senile behavior. She would get into a sudden temper about â€˜natural horsemanshipâ€™ and start flipping her finger off in conversation. Itâ€™s not the first Iâ€™ve heard by many accounts and she refused to provide any merit to her theories, disregarding the horse. Is this what she meant by x-ray vision? She sure has a distaste for most horse people and breeds but more importantly Arabian owners should steer well clear. Incredible that Equus gives voice to someone with such a polarized mentality.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I always thought that it was Irish Hobby Horse and not English as the breed or type originated in Ireland
They're said to be the forerunner of the Connemara and the Irish Draught, though both of those breeds are also said to have been refined in later years by cross breeding with horses that swam ashore from shipwrecks during the time of the Spanish Armada 
The Friesian horse was introduced into Britain very early on in the history of that country and had a huge influence on native breeds there. William the Conqueror is said to have ridden a horse that resembled one. A Scottish King imported horses of Easter origin in the 10 - 1100's), King John (11 - 1200's) imported Flemish horses, Edward 3rd imported Spanish and French horses in the 1300's
Its said that horses of Arabian and Barb breeding came to England in the 3rd century, probably connected to the Crusades which lasted up to the 3rd century


Its probably correct to state that the same breeds that influenced the more refined English horses also influenced the Irish Hobby horse so credit for a more sporty, speedy, athletic horse has to go further back and will still end up on the Middle Eastern doorstep


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

I like her articles in Equus. Do I think they are scientific? I have no clue and I don't take them as such. They are good entertaining reading. And sometimes they prompt me to go looking for more verified information, which is a good thing. 

Given reports on her personality (which I have been fortunate to not have encountered) as difficult/arrogant, I likely would not choose to interact with her, as I wouldn't with anyone who is rude/arrogant. But I still enjoy her articles as they give me food for thought and obviously, as with this post, discussion. Open discussion is a good thing and people (hopefully) will make up their own minds.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I am more of a "don't waste my time with your fanciful opinions not based on scientific data" kind of person. A lifetime of reading stuff about the origins of domestic animals has made me very cynical. So many breed origins are merely a fictional combo of drama, mythology, hearsay, and speculation. 

For example, DNA testing has recently revealed that the (French-) Canadian Horse was the progenitor of the Morgan Horse (at least until the 20th century, when the Saddlebred model became the goal and the main part of the breed IMHO went to you know where). If you look at the two breeds together and glance at a map, it's pretty dang obvious, but I hadn't even HEARD of the Canadian Horse until less than a year ago when I moved to New England. And this after reading everything that came my way about Morgans for many years.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I have her series of books on conformation which are quite interesting. @Milestev, I am having trouble reading your post due to some odd characters. my guess is that you posted from your phone. This can sometimes cause some odd things.


I have no skin in the game regarding Dr Bennet, but I always keep in mind the difference between first hand experience and heresay.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Not a fan of articles like that either. It just fuels misinformation based on one person's (possibly erroneous) opinion. 

If I may share this article though (which isn't about bloodlines, but how HORSES helped spread Indo-European Languages: 




*New research shows how Indo-European languages spread across Asia
*



A friend of mine who teaches at a university in the UK sent me this when it first started making the circuits. It wasn't this site, mind you, but I'm at the office and I don't have the original source material. She found it fascinating, as did I, and it is legitimate research.


(If it's already been shared at this forum and discussed by all means, disregard. If you think it needs it's own thread, by all means, please advise)


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Avna said:


> For example, DNA testing has recently revealed that the (French-) Canadian Horse was the progenitor of the Morgan Horse (at least until the 20th century, when the Saddlebred model became the goal and the main part of the breed IMHO went to you know where). If you look at the two breeds together and glance at a map, it's pretty dang obvious, but I hadn't even HEARD of the Canadian Horse until less than a year ago when I moved to New England. And this after reading everything that came my way about Morgans for many years.


And the Canadian horse traces its origins back to horses sent to Canada by the King of France in the 1600's and British and some American horses already in Canada were crossed into them so that further complicates the origins of the Morgan


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Clearly it's time for me to read _The Horse The Wheel and Language_ again.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

jaydee said:


> And the Canadian horse traces its origins back to horses sent to Canada by the King of France in the 1600's and British and some American horses already in Canada were crossed into them so that further complicates the origins of the Morgan


There are a lot of dropped threads in the Morgan story. 

This is a summary of the genetic research. Note the totally different m.o. to Deb Bennett.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If you use recorded history the French King sent about 40 horses of differing types to Canada. They were horses from his own Royal Stables so would have been top quality animals. There was a mix of draft and riding horses including gaited horses but no mention of breeds but France was already using Arabians and horses from Spain and Portugal to improve their riding stock so you'd expect those to be included. Their are lots of French Draught breeds so not sure why they'd send Belgian draft breeds unless they were introduced later on
The Norman Cob is very similar to the Canadian horse


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## Milestev (Sep 26, 2018)

tinyliny said:


> I have her series of books on conformation which are quite interesting. @Milestev, I am having trouble reading your post due to some odd characters. my guess is that you posted from your phone. This can sometimes cause some odd things.
> 
> 
> I have no skin in the game regarding Dr Bennet, but I always keep in mind the difference between first hand experience and heresay.


Apologies, I’m a stumbling newbie here and didn’t know my old Galaxy phone would alter with these strange characters it in this way! I have no idea how to edit or fix these apostrophes, can you suggest something to me? For my statements, I don't wish to sound careless I actually do know the facts behind them well and wanted to share my opinion since it is also from a direct experience with Bennett and in general, preachy people who really only get their digs when speaking from a position of authority. I was in my 20s newly immigrated with not so good English, so naturally I was an automatic target for her attacks years ago meeting an educator who is really only at ease with themselves when unfairly deprecating others. It was a truly upsetting ordeal for me and my sister. The platform responses of her forum and clinics routinely back this demoralizing scheme. Bennett’s eccentricities are well known. Her attitude is and has always been rudeness for the sake of calling everyone an idiot - her own students, students of other disciplines, her contemporaries - anyone at all really. Hey, some call it genius, the horse market is full of them. I call it sour old trainer syndrome. Except that this one has a PHD in fossils and is passing her equine doctrines as a scholarly sermon neatly delivered every month on her favorites and pet peeves. Every time people have written to Equus magazine to inquire on the basis of her sensational research and statements specific to breeds they are met with cold silence. You can love her or despise her, it’s really each person’s individual judgement, but there are some folks who’ll simply hate your horse no matter what (that’s life, it's ok). I’m not as eloquent as the rest of you here in horse breed history to elaborate on what I’m trying to say, but it’s just when so much of her bread and butter thesis focuses its effort on deploring the Arabian horse and prejudice for an extinct breed of her choice, how is this benefitting anyone, especially when designed to be relished in the manner of this carte blanche platform provided her by Equus? Sure, you can formulate your own opinion but these articles are being passed down like a Moses tablet from a publication that regular horse owners (not paleontologists) depend upon to learn useful horse keeping theory, not expecting to receive agitprop. I think we are living with enough hate and negativity in our human daily routines to bring this kind of sentiment into our escapes with the horses, also.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

@Milestev, I agree with you.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

This article is written by someone who picked up the Irish Hobby horse and has run with it - but again, in his efforts to promote the 'Irish' part he's totally ignoring the fact that a whole lot of other blood went into that original Celtic pony type (that originated from somewhere in the Iberian Peninsula and not the British Isles) to turn it into something more refined, larger and athletic.
He rather lost me when he referred to the foundation stallions (Byerley Turk, Darley Arabian, Godolphin Arabian) that began the whole TB breeding lines that we have today as 'some mythical oriental horse'. You can trace back through pedigrees and find these horses plus others named as Barbs.
https://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/irish-hobby.html
I've read one article that claims the Hobby comes from the gaelic word for speed when its far more likely (as written in another article) that the name comes from the French word used for Palfrey - Haubini which became Hobbeye and then Hobby
While there's no doubt that it and other native breed have their blood in the past of sport horses today without adding a lot of other blood to them the result would still look like the Kerry Bog Pony which is also related to the Irish Hobby


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## Milestev (Sep 26, 2018)

For any kind of expert research - breed history or conformation study - to carry its weight above tabloid tittle tattle, the person writing it needs to act as an IMPARTIAL source providing a sound scientific formula to back it otherwise they are simply dictating what you ought to deduce from it. Failing to explain theory behind such broad facts as is bad as breeders concealing faults or rewriting history to further their aim. Unfortunately, Deb Bennett is somewhat renowned for passing her every theory as fact, even when it is shamefully incorrect. Why? *Because her published works are now considered textbook.*

Here’s an open letter written by the Davenport Arabian Horse Conservancy in August 2014 to Equus magazine on a vast embarrassment of factual errors in one article - _Arabian Horses Come to America_ - published by Deb Bennett - no response was ever received from either Bennett nor the magazine:

*https://davenporthorses.org/2015/07/22/bennett-articles-in-equus/
*
No question that she possessed a wealth of knowledge but somewhere along the line her intellect and emotion are at complete odds in the nature of services that they are issuing. A google search will provide countless occasions where she mixed up names and individuals in pedigrees and the editors at Equus never bothered with corrections. For the large and continual depth of her content and contributions to the magazine, they may have simply considered her above it all. 

This also extends beyond Deb Bennett’s horse breed research. It is well known that Bennett had been (is?) working on her thesis for the ancient dogs of Roman Vindolanda whereby she had been assisted by several others in her field. In current talks with universities, Bennett wrongfully claims the entire research as her own and has worked tirelessly to discredit every other person involved in the work. These professors have worked hard and received their grants to further their research: Deb Bennett did not. 

Very few people are willing to speak up against published falsities in some of these horse platforms but it's reasonable to question what kind of knowledge you are willing to soak up from a source who is proving steadily unreliable in their motives.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Wow, after reading the letters you linked to, I am even more against her. Publishing such shoddy research is truly a stain on that magazine. But if you look for her name online, it is almost all uncritical praise, as though all her words are written in gold. No wonder they keep publishing her crud.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

How nice to find this thread! I won't reiterate what has been already said, but I find those articles in Equus impossible to read. I struggled thru the first one and came out the other end thinking she had lost any sense she might have ever had. 

One just can't make up things and call it research...I no longer even attempt the articles. 

Ben wondering why those page fillers are even there, then realized that much of the magazine no longer has much real information to publish. The subscription was a gift from a friend, but it seems a waste of time anymore to read it. 

There was a time many years ago when horse magazines gave real factual advice and relevant discoveries. Not so much anymore :frown_color:


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## Milestev (Sep 26, 2018)

Actually, the bio that is commonly attributed to Deb Bennett (1984 graduate .etc) is her own self-authored text copy. Google’s first page listings for just her name pulls up various websites that she owns and operates: *Equine Studies* is her CA licensed business name, not a formal school as it has been styled to appear. No Amazon reviews for her books. Her acuity and forte was certainly in horse biomechanics, no argument there. You’d have to know the breed opinion articles in question from Equus, in particular, to receive any real critique of her work. But the best judgement is really is your own participation to glean her direct responses or visiting one of her clinics (that people seldom repeat after a preliminary experience as stated by everyone here).


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I enjoy the articles, mostly for the neat old photos. I never read them as 'fact' but moreso her personal theory, as it seems a bit outlandish that she claims to know how a particular unnamed mare in another horses' guessed-at pedigree is bred based on some guess that his owner might have traveled to some area at some time, or because he has a certain shoulder. That's ridiculous. But the pictures are cool, I enjoyed especially the historical skeleton articles, and the series is entertaining. I have written to Equus asking that if the author is claiming these as factual, would they please cite sources, or add a disclaimer to the article that theories found therein are theories only? No response.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Thanks for all the information shared on this thread. It's very helpful to know what should be taken with a grain of salt. It's one thing to state things as facts, another to say it is your opinion. For one thing, Dr. Bennett seems to favor a certain style of horse as ideal, rather than seeing that there could be a variety of conformations that are ideal for different purposes. Should we say a long back is not ideal, when it might be ideal for a harness horse? Should we say a steep shoulder is not ideal, when it might be for a pulling draft horse? 

Just taking everything she says as fact because she is a Dr. reminds me of how Dr. Getty is also published and her opinions quoted as fact, in particular her popular idea that every horse should be fed free choice, regardless of genes, past laminitis or obesity. I've read comments to her from people questioning when their horse's appetite will finally slow down (after months), people saying their horses are terribly obese and should they keep feeding them, and no real solutions given for their horses that don't fit in with that ideology.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

She has a PhD in paleontology. In academic circles it is almost unheard of to use the title Doctor just because you have a PhD. The term is mainly reserved for medical doctors and dentists. It is considered highly pretentious; laughable. Since my husband worked in academia all his life (in high energy physics), and I have put in my own time there, I don't have the awe for a degree that people who've not been to university might have. In fact I don't have any awe at all. If you want to find a group of people who feel that they embody the pinnacle of science, you may wish to attend a particle physics lab party. To them, paleontology is not even a science (anything below the rigor of, say, mathematics, is "not a real science"), and publishing anywhere other than a peer-reviewed scientific journal would be contemptible.

As an editor and writer, and the wife of an actual scientist, I find her writings to be unacceptable, at least the ones I have read. Small-circulation magazines can only pay minimally, and especially if they cater to a less than literary audience, they tend to have low standards for submissions -- they can't offer enough money to get people who can really research and write. So they often are reduced to publishing advertising copy disguised as editorial, and whatever the cat dragged in.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm also married to a scientist with a PhD - the Dr. bit tends to be more recognized in the UK than it is in the US if you were writing a research paper or even an article like this but not as an 'everyday title' used for a GP - we don't call dentists or vets 'doctor' either.


The article discussed here wouldn't be regarded very highly amongst professionals because it fails completely to acknowledge the fact that the Irish Hobby originally came from another region of Europe into Ireland where it was likely influenced by other now extinct breeds and it was the addition of superior bloodlines from countries outside of Ireland that turned it from a nondescript scrubby pony into a modern day sport horse
Credit can be given to the Irish for any selective breeding that was done but that's about all


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