# Please critique me... Gulp :P



## tinyliny

Well, let's see . . . what do I see? 

at the start, your mare looks like a very reasonable horse, and you look like a very reasonable rider. walking on,the horse starts to exhibit some of the anxiety she has about contact , or at least I think that is what is causing her to be tense and begin to invert herself. your hands almost immedieately take up the contrary position, that of pointing downward to her pointing upward. it sets a balance up between you that is her being defensive and stiff, and you being a bit of a passive passenger, and become stiff , yourself.

when you trot, you can see that the stiffness she has becomes expressed in her counterbending and falling into the circle, and you working harder with your leg to try and counter that. her transition into the canter is resentful and speedy and unbalanced. later, at the change of direction, your feet are too busy on her sides.

Does any of this sound like what you are experiencing ?


----------



## CandyCanes

Gelding... Heh 
Anyway, yes... I don't really know how to stop this... Any ideas?

Just some info, which may explain some things:
Diddly is a 4 year old 3/4 tb, under saddle about a year and a half. Rising 5. 
We have being trying to get a hold of the back man for some time, and the dentist.... To no avail so far  Very busy people... But we are trying our best to get them out to check diddly over asap  Just in case the giraffe impressions are due to his back/ teeth.


----------



## tinyliny

i watched the video twice trying to discern mare/gelding. it's kind of grainy and doesn't play at true speed, (it's a bit jerky, maybe due to low quality?) so hard to see those "details".

the very first thing you can do is to never have your hands pointing downward in an attempt to get him to come downwards. always maintain the direct line to his mouth. if he giraffes, you go up with him. you keep asking what you are asking, such as "please give to the right", even if he goes up. in other words, you do not reward his upward movement, nor do you really fight with it. if he starts to lower his head, you give him a small reward to indicate that being lower is the place to be. that, yes, he made a correct choice. but never try to hold him down by keeping your hands low. it only sets up this counter positioning, and it makes the rider become downwardly trending, over his shoulders. 

Do a lot of work at the walk, and some at trot, but 90% at walk. get him to flex to the inside, give the inside rein (keep the outside there, but be sure you are following his walk rythm) and see if he can hold that bend, keep that small loop in the inside rein him self. If he can, for a few steps, give him both reins, and reach forward and pet and love on him and praise.

once he give softly to the inside, and holds that bend for a step or two, ask with your inside leg that he step sideways, into the outside rein, before you release it all and reward. when you ask him to step sideways, if he is resistant, you can help a little by taking the outside leg off a bit to create a "door" for him to step into. 

All of this is to encourgage lateral flexion through the jaw and through the body. a horse wont' invert (giraffe) if his lateral flexion is soft. work at walk and put in a few steps of leg yield and shoulder in , here and there. don't ask for it non-stop, and if the horse starts to invert and resist, go back to a few steps of forward. 

remember, do not try to move the horse sideways if the jaw is braced. flexion in the jaw (inside) comes before asking for the inside leg to step under (sideways movement). 
do this so that your horse has many small successes.

I know many people will disagree with my last statement, and I asked my teacher why this, and she said "sure, you can leg him sideways if you're strong enough, but if he's braced up in front, all you are doing is teaching him to move sideways with a brace in his body. if he is soft in front, he'll move sideways from just 'asking' instead of needing to be pushed over."


----------



## CandyCanes

Right, brilliant  I was always taught to keep the hands low, know matter what the hell the horse has going on, so I will try what you said. I think, at the moment, the walk is definitely his best pace. He seems to drop down must more for me then. As soon as we trot. Whoosh, Head straight up . 
Thank you again, and I will keep trying to get him to him relax. Can I ask when I will know when I should begin doing all this at a trot? Or will I just know?


----------



## tinyliny

When he feels good, and seems most relaxed , give it a go. if he starts to invert, then ease back to a walk. you will get better and better at staying with him when he inverts and encouraging him to soften and put his head down. as long as he is rewarded for that, he'll start wanting to be there. If things fall apart at the trot, and you start going back into a "fighting" sort of relationship, go back to walk, get things soft again and either quit for the day, or try the trot.

Since he is falling in on the circles, you can also allow him to trot out on the straightaways of the arena. I know that circles are you friend and a great training aid, but for a young horse it is also a reward for them to just trot out on the straightaway, with minimal "fiddling" from the rider. he might even offer to lower his head on his own if he is allowed a loose rein and a trot down the straightaway. in fact, working on being able to take up the rein and contact, and let it out, without him changing his attitude and getting defensive will be good for you.


----------



## CandyCanes

Thank you  Your posts are so informative Tiny! Please be my riding instructor!!!


----------



## tinyliny

I am no instructor. my riding level is quite low, in the grand scheme. I know some of what you dealing with because it plagues me, too.


----------



## CandyCanes

Meh... You phrase things well anyway! I can get my head around what you are saying which is the important thing!


----------



## Skyseternalangel

There is a lot of tension in that horse, but despite that he has nice rhythm and you keep up well.

Something needs to change to loosen him up, instead of just holding your hands in place and having him brace against you. 

Notice how relaxed he was before you got on, and how his head shot up when he got into the saddle? It could mean that he's anticipating pain so he tenses up. Hopefully you get ahold of the professionals soon that could help your horse out with any potential causes of pain

Honestly I wouldn't trot that soon, I would spend time getting him all bendy and soft at the walk, and trying to encourage him to stretch out. It's harder than it sounds, but you can build on that type of foundation versus one with a very tense horse


----------



## CandyCanes

Skyseternalangel said:


> There is a lot of tension in that horse, but despite that he has nice rhythm and you keep up well.
> 
> Something needs to change to loosen him up, instead of just holding your hands in place and having him brace against you.
> 
> Notice how relaxed he was before you got on, and how his head shot up when he got into the saddle? It could mean that he's anticipating pain so he tenses up. Hopefully you get ahold of the professionals soon that could help your horse out with any potential causes of pain
> 
> Honestly I wouldn't trot that soon, I would spend time getting him all bendy and soft at the walk, and trying to encourage him to stretch out. It's harder than it sounds, but you can build on that type of foundation versus one with a very tense horse


Thank you  I realize that there is tension, and I'm drumming my fingers waiting for the blooming back man and the dentist! 
If you mean trot that soon after I get on, I should probably mention that before that video he was working for a half an hour or so, then I dismounted, set up the camera, and got back on. I always walk for about 10 minutes before trotting whilst warming up. 
If that's not what you mean, then OK. I am working him at walk for a little while first anyway, as suggested by tinylily. 

The thing is, that he looks a different horse out on the road. He has his ears pricked almost continuously.... Head in the same position, but he definitely has a more..... Happy attitude. But unfortunately it doesn't work both ways... No circles or cantering can be done on the road, and circles seem to help him so much. I'm seriously beginning to think he hates flat work, combined with some possible discomfort... Hmmmm..:think:

This: Is diddly when we are pootling about on the road, or in a field








Clear difference?!


----------



## Skyseternalangel

CandyCanes said:


> If you mean trot that soon after I get on, I should probably mention that before that video he was working for a half an hour or so, then I dismounted, set up the camera, and got back on. I always walk for about 10 minutes before trotting whilst warming up.
> If that's not what you mean, then OK. I am working him at walk for a little while first anyway, as suggested by tinylily.


Trot that soon = when he still hasn't relaxed nor given softly.. it's rushed. Quality walk work creates quality trot work and so on. If you spend 30 minutes walking, and nothing happens.. you need to change your technique. At least get him nice and loose, then transition to a trot, then back to a walk. Incorporate circles and serpentine, changes of direction and gait.


----------



## CandyCanes

Right ok... Thanks a million. He had a rest day today, but tomorrow we'll get back to it  He seems to drop a lot if I do spirals. Spiralling in, then back out again.


----------



## Ninamebo

You're getting great advice from Tiny and Sky already, but I just wanted to say good on you for taking it so well and using it to your advantage! It's so mature and professional of you. I sometimes wonder if people really want to hear what others have to say or just what they want to hear.. your horse is beautiful, btw.

Good luck with all the new exercises!


----------



## CandyCanes

Thank you... That warmed my heart a little  
I just walked today, with a teeny little bit of trotting here and there. Nothing much. I watched his facial expression as I was mounting, and he didn't appear to stiffen. But he was very relaxed altogether when I was going around in the walk... Which I took as a good sign  
In a month or so, I will probably bombard you all (oh so sorry to be loading my problems onto you!) with another video, to see if we are improving. 
Thank you all again, so much


----------



## CandyCanes

I have a quick query... I know his back is stiff, but if you go to 3.19 you can see his tail swinging quite clearly, and if you pause on any bit that he is in trot, you can see a raised back. So how is it possible that he is tense... And relaxed at the same time?! 
Also, every time I rode him after the video he was perfectly relaxed in the walk, so I could have gone straight into trot if I liked... But as soon as I go into trot, he throws up his head. I bring him back, and try again, but always the same. But I don't think he's in pain, because for the whole session today he had his ears pricked forwards the whole time (mini achievement!). Could the fact that he just had his feet done be the cause?


----------



## jaydee

I have to go and do horse stuff but will come back!!


----------



## CandyCanes

Anyone?


----------



## jaydee

I'm going to throw in a few ideas so you'll have to bear with me if they seem a bit muddled
1. Get his teeth checked because he does seem to try to avoid the bit and the higher his head goes the less effect you have on the bars where it should be and it begins to pull upwards and against his teeth which is uncomfortable for him too so he'll just keep going higher to get the pressure in the corners of his mouth where you've got no effect at all
1. Get his back and his neck (from the poll to his withers) checked because he does have a tense hollow backed look to him which might mean he has some back pain and trotting is tougher on sore backed horses than walking or cantering and that high stiff head carriage might have caused stiffness problems in his neck too that need releasing
3. Calm down your riding - I know he's a lazy horse but going faster wont help him get his quarters engaged - if anything he'll just get more strung out
4. Soften your hands - the more you try to hold his head in frame the higher it goes. I wouldn't even try to get his head 'in' at this stage. When you go from walk to trot instead of shortening up your reins keep them a lot longer - as long as you have light contact with his mouth don't worry about where his head is (as long as its not pointing horizontally or skywards) and only ask for a slow trot - no running around like its a race and let him feel that he can stretch down onto the bit without you pulling back on him
5. Forget the riding around in a big circle - put some cones in your manege and drop a few poles on the ground and ride randomly in and out of them and over the poles, lots of changes of direction so he has to listen to you all the time - but don't ask for anything more than a light contact on the bit - forget about the collection until he's going forwards willingly - if his backs OK you can be going slow enough to do a sitting trot
6. If you ride in a jointed snaffle it might be worth getting hold of a mullen mouth straight snaffle to try him in - not all horses go well in jointed or double jointed bits
7. I would rather carry a schooling whip on a lazy horse than keep nagging at it with my heels - they just get numb to it eventually.
8. When you do begin to ask for a vertical head carriage do it slowly - a bit more each week as he feels relaxed and soft at where you're at - don't use a rigid hand - play gently with his mouth, opening and closing your fingers, both hands at the same time and also alternating your hands - right then left - but not a hard see saw thing though. When you feel him give to the pressure reward him with some release. The idea is that you don't hold his head in frame with a vice like grip but he learns to carry himself that way by developing the muscles he needs to do it
9. Get him out hacking as much as you can - you can do a lot of schooling out on the tracks, roads and fields and he wont get bored with it. As soon as my young horses understood the aids to stop, go and turn & were safe to be ridden in traffic they didn't see a ménage again for at least 6 months by which time they were a lot more responsive and a lot fitter and better muscled to deal with it


----------



## CandyCanes

Thank you  
I will be six weeks at least before we get his back checked... Maybe more as the back man is so busy. Not sure about dentist yet. 
I'm _pretty_ sure its not my hands, because if I drop my reins entirely, his head stays in exactly the same position. (It might be though, and I'm not ruling it out entirely). 
I went on the road today, and he was very perky, and his ears were pricked the whole time, and he was positively bouncing! I have only had that arena in the video about 2 weeks, and before that, all it was was road work, as there was no where else to ride. (we don't have any fields we are allowed ride in, and no bridle paths, so its just a few country roads really) 
I tend to carry a whip, but I dropped it the day before that video, and it grew legs and ran off (I found it today!) 
I'm bringing in my show jumps tomorrow, from the field... I plan to through a couple of poles into the arena and see what he thinks. 

Thanky again. I'm most infuriated waiting for the dentist and back man.


----------



## CandyCanes

So sorry to keep bothering everyone, but I noticed there were words floating around about him possibly not liking the bit he is in (a french link snaffle). On Monday, I am bringing him over to a friends, and she is riding him. If he goes the same for her as for me, we have eliminated it being the rider, for the most part. She is an excellent rider, and if anyone can get him going well, its her. So, if he doesn't go well for her, I think we can safely say hes in pain, or he doesn't like his tack. We are also going to try him in a different saddle. Also a different bit... this one to be exact:










I hear some babies go well in them... But I've heard very mixed reviews: I've heard they are excellent for the young horse, and very mild. But I have also heard the mouthy horse can chew though them in a week, and some horses tend to lean on them. But we will see how he goes in my friends one, and if he likes it, I will buy one, but one with fixed egg butt rings rather than a loose ring. This is the one I had in mind...









Opinions? Thoughts?


----------



## jaydee

Sometimes process of elimination is the only way to go
I really like the mullen mouth shaped Happy mouth bit - that you show on the top - I've never had a sensitive mouthed horse that didn't go well in one and it was what solved Looby's problem of getting too behind the bit with no contact on her mouth. She didn't go well in a snaffle or French link. You do need to watch for any sharp bits on them if they manage to chew them though you can sand them down with fine sandpaper!!!
Have you ever tried lunging him in side reins fastened off the girth - not too tight and must be elasticated. I would never ride in side reins but they can be a good band aid for horses that think they're giraffes. This youngster used to be a bit like your horse and it was how we solved it - if you notice in this old scanned pic he has his head very low by the time this was taken, about a week after starting him in them and the side reins have plenty of slack in them


----------



## CandyCanes

Thanks for that jaydee. 
If Diddly goes well in that bit, we will buy it. 
We don't have side reins, but we do have a bungee... I rode him in it once, and now I have the facilities to lunge him ... Would that work? Using the bungee rather than side reins? 
Is that the only thing that was wrong with the horse in the picture.... He thought he was a giraffe? Or were there teeth or back problems before hand?


----------



## jaydee

I don't know anything about bungees so can't help
If you use any sort of restraint you have to be prepared to start off with it really loose - almost no pressure at all and then tighten up very slowly because if they panic it can be a train wreck
That horse was only 4 and no teeth or back problems - all checked before anything else was done but he showed a tendency to hold his head too high from the start and I didn't want it to develop into a permanent habit. His mother was half TB out of a welsh X arab mare and I think that breed influenced his head/neck carriage
Re. the bit - I wouldn't worry too much if he leans on it because that way he's hopefully going to be stretching downwards on to it rather than going upwards


----------



## CandyCanes

Thanks a mill jaydee... Interesting... Diddly may be the same... And he may not. Here's a video from today... Out doing dressage  
Dressage-SummerviewEQ_zps606e5cb5.mp4 Video by muffin110 | Photobucket
Have we improved? At all... Or is it too soon to see any improvements? If you look at his tail, it is loose and swinging, and his ears are swiveling sometimes and forward other times, but not back, like in the first video.


----------



## jaydee

At least he's stretching his neck out more but he does look somehow uncomfortable - as if he's trying to avoid the bit all the time by getting above it
Does it touch on his teeth at all?
Have you checked to see if he has any soreness around his gums that might indicate that?


----------



## CandyCanes

I honestly wouldn't know what to look for... But when I DO check his teeth, the place where the bit sits is the same colour as the rest of his gums  If that makes any difference. I doesn't look sore.


----------



## tinyliny

the video looks a bit better. he is really a nice horse.

before you assume that his teeth are causing him pain and thus resistance, try working at the walk only, and doing leg yields and shoulder ins. see if you can get him to give to the bit and lower his head, take the bit forward, then bring it back (all while he is walking ) and see if THAT causes anxiety and reactivity. If you can get him to accept the bit, flex his poll both longitudinaly and laterally, at the walk, then you know that it is not likely that his teeth bother him. more likely it's related to how you are riding him.


----------



## jaydee

Just a thought - but as you have a manege and he doesn't sound to be the sort to try to bolt off have you thought about riding him 'bitless' to see what he does with his head? You can use an ordinary leather headcollar and fasten your reins to the sides


----------



## CandyCanes

jaydee said:


> Just a thought - but as you have a manege and he doesn't sound to be the sort to try to bolt off have you thought about riding him 'bitless' to see what he does with his head? You can use an ordinary leather headcollar and fasten your reins to the sides


That's exactly what I have been thinking. If he has the same head carriage with out the bridle, I think we can eliminate teeth ,and bit. Then I would be left with back, me, or saddle. We are eliminating (or finding the cause) one thing today... My riding. A friend of mine is riding him today. We are also eliminating the saddle, and my bit  
Happy days. 

Thanks Tinylily... I'm so lucky to have him. 
He holds his head much lower in the walk usually. Usually his face will be vertical, but he pokes a lot as soon as we go into a trot. I am currently working on what you have advised, and I think we are making progress. 
I will keep you posted when I get back from the friends house.


----------



## tinyliny

Well, one thing I noticed is that you don't prepare him enough for your transitions. once you have an idea as to why he wants to "giraffe" when you go up into a trot, you can work on that, and work on the transitions. I noticed that he falls out of the trot and canter in an almost "oh, you surprised me there" way. it will help to get him prepared to go up or down. and that is almost like revving up the engine of a car, before putting it into the next gear. it means leg on , but energy retained, and that is where using your seat, and your hand to keep the energy from spilling out the front, will kind of rev your horse's energy and get him primed for the next thing, a second later, and that can be either to step up into the trot, or down from the trot or canter.
preparing your horse for whats coming next is paramount to dressage.

I noticed that he is worried about something in that one corner, where he counter bends in order to keep an eye outward. If you were able to get a good bend and a half halt BEFORE that corner, you'd be preparing for what you know he'll do and be better able to keep him bendind the correct way.


to be honest, I think that he worries about the contact, but I doubt it is a real physical issue. it is that you do not yet know how to make contact "meaningful". waht that means to me is that you be able to both restrict with the hand, and reward with the hand, and do it in a feedback loop that makes it very clear to the horse that you are "with " him and what he needs to do to earn that reward of a softening of the rein. 
the thing is, he has got to experience giving to the rein and being rewarded several times for him to realize that contact is NOT a trap. once he knows that he can earn freedom from contact once he does give, then he will become more and more elastic with the contact. 

But it all depends on YOU. you have to be very good at your part of this elastic bargain. it does NOT mean that you have loose reins all the time. far from it. you actually may have to put on some pressure on the bit, a firmness in your hand and upper arm firm against the body, to tell the horse, "give, here" . and, stay in there , no reward, until he does. then reward big time. do this a lot, at the walk, and your horse will start to trust your hand. But it all depends on you.


----------



## CandyCanes

There was a camera man in the corner, that all the horses were spooking at. 
Update: Today when I was at a friends house, I was told that A.) His saddle doesn't fit, and B.) It looks like his teeth might be hurting him and C.) He doesn't step his off fore under his body as much as his near fore, meaning a possible back issue. 
We tried a different saddle on him, and I was able to apply my aids much better, especially my seat aids. I was a little lost in the huge saddle I have on him now: a 17", which is too big for me and him. It is too long on him. So my little pony saddle seems to fit. I will try him in it tomorrow, and I am also going to try long and low, as I watched a very informative lesson today on that particular topic. By the end the horse involved was stretching down really nicely.


----------



## Ninamebo

Watched the second video. He's a great mover. Now my two cents: you remind me a lot of myself. I was taught perfect equitation on perfect horses, but never how to really Ride them. Just sit there and look pretty. But when the time came to train my own horse to do these things, I originally let him get away with a lot of these things because I didn't know any better. 
You have a really nice quiet seat and hands, but that is about all you do and it might to stem from the idea that if you ask him for "too much" he will just Giraffe it even more for you. 

You have to push it, push him, push yourself. He is a beautiful mover naturally, so he has shown you what he will do, now you need to ride him into what he can do. My horse is the exact same- very arab-y with gorgeous flowing movements, but he never had to really work much for it, so when I first started asking him for more he would throw a fit and Up comes the head.

Once you get that consistent training telling him that contact with the bit is not a bad thing, he will start to like stretching into it. That mullen happy mouth really helped my horse figure that one out too. 

You have okay contact with his mouth, but I'd like to see you really take hold of the outside rein more. It is your everything and you support that everything with your inside leg. Never let it go because when you do you drop him and his head will come right Up because he has lost his rider. 

If you know he spooks in a certain spot, bend him before to get attention on you, and put your leg on. Close your hand, close your leg and just Ride it forward and out! And don't be afraid to try certain cues with your hands to get that stretch into it that you're looking for- close your hand on him and see what he will give you. Right now your body language and rein/ leg aids are saying to him, "Hey there buddy, do you mind maybe doing this thing for me, please? If it's not too much to ask.." To get through to him, you have to be saying, "We are going to do this now, Diddly, and I'm going to guide you through the whole way so not to worry, you just do your job and I'll do mine." Confidence is key. 

I promise you and that horse will be great- you two already are great together but these things take time. Keep it up!


----------



## jaydee

If his teeth are bothering him then I would invest in a simple bitless bridle and ride him in that even for a while after you get his dental work done so he can forget any discomfort issues he has rattling around in his head
The main reason horses drop into the downward transitions is because the rider simply 'stops riding' - if the horse needs a lot of wellie to keep it going they just stop pushing it. You have to ask for a change down and halt with your body, legs and hands.


----------



## CandyCanes

Ninamebo said:


> Watched the second video. He's a great mover. Now my two cents: you remind me a lot of myself. I was taught perfect equitation on perfect horses, but never how to really Ride them. Just sit there and look pretty. But when the time came to train my own horse to do these things, I originally let him get away with a lot of these things because I didn't know any better.
> You have a really nice quiet seat and hands, but that is about all you do and it might to stem from the idea that if you ask him for "too much" he will just Giraffe it even more for you.
> 
> You have to push it, push him, push yourself. He is a beautiful mover naturally, so he has shown you what he will do, now you need to ride him into what he can do. My horse is the exact same- very arab-y with gorgeous flowing movements, but he never had to really work much for it, so when I first started asking him for more he would throw a fit and Up comes the head.
> 
> Once you get that consistent training telling him that contact with the bit is not a bad thing, he will start to like stretching into it. That mullen happy mouth really helped my horse figure that one out too.
> 
> You have okay contact with his mouth, but I'd like to see you really take hold of the outside rein more. It is your everything and you support that everything with your inside leg. Never let it go because when you do you drop him and his head will come right Up because he has lost his rider.
> 
> If you know he spooks in a certain spot, bend him before to get attention on you, and put your leg on. Close your hand, close your leg and just Ride it forward and out! And don't be afraid to try certain cues with your hands to get that stretch into it that you're looking for- close your hand on him and see what he will give you. Right now your body language and rein/ leg aids are saying to him, "Hey there buddy, do you mind maybe doing this thing for me, please? If it's not too much to ask.." To get through to him, you have to be saying, "We are going to do this now, Diddly, and I'm going to guide you through the whole way so not to worry, you just do your job and I'll do mine." Confidence is key.
> 
> I promise you and that horse will be great- you two already are great together but these things take time. Keep it up!


I just want to come right over there and give you big hug! <3
Anyway, OK.. Firmer outside rein. Got it. 
I am pretty sure it is not _entirely_ my riding, because this friend who is a competition rider and can get ANYTHING to come down onto the bit and step under itself, couldn't really get Diddly to come down. She got a few nice steps, but there was no real transformation. Every time she picked up contact, he threw up his head, which suggests teeth problems. She also commented on the fact that he doesn't really get how to bend around the leg. So her advice was: when asking for a turn, don't just open the inside rein. Open and close it.... Like a door. But don't slam it  

Anyway, today is the day I try riding in a head collar... If he bucks... I'm screwed. But he won't. I think. If he holds his head in a natural position, I think we are looking at teeth problems here. 
I am also going to try my little pony saddle on him. It's a bit ironic how my jumping saddle for my 13.2 mite can fit this 16.2 monster. It's showing every indication, so far that it fits: I can fit 4 fingers between the wither and pommel, I can run my hand down under the front of the saddle with no obstructions from his shoulder blade (With the other saddle, I could not do this, as it was too long, so therefore too far forward to compensate, meaning his shoulder was being restricted, causing an obstruction) , and it ends well before his last rib, when there are 3 fingers between the front of the saddle and the shoulder blade. I can see daylight if I look from the back of the saddle to the front, and it sits level on his back. Any other thing's I should check? This is while NOT mounted, just to say. When I mount I will check all these things, bar the daylight one again  
Sorry for the loooonnnggg informative, slightly ramblish post. 

Oh, and btw: Thanks a mill for the tips jaydee. Hopefully I will be back in my normal bridle about a week after Christmas.


----------



## CandyCanes

*sigh* I rode him in the little pony saddle, and in a head collar with reins attached. No change. Still ears back, tail swishing when I try to canter.


----------



## Ninamebo

Don't get too discouraged. I apologize if it's been asked already, but have you checked him for ulcers? My friend had a horse that only showed signs of it at the canter because things would get all sloshy and uncomfortable with the rock of it. There is a list of signs that a horse may have them and some acupuncture pressure points that you could palpate to see his reaction if you wanted to save yourself some money from scoping. And scoping can't even register hindgut ulcers. 

I figured he would keep his head up. Honestly, I think up until this point he hasn't really known much else. Some horses will do that because they are natural hollowers, as I like to call them, and you need to teach them that stretching the neck down and forward feels good! He's how old? 5? And he has probably been going around with his head up like that for his whole life. And head up means that his back, hind and foreleg muscles are all being used and built up in very different ways from what you are asking him to now accomplish. I don't count the picture you have of him ridden by his past owner- that was all force and he still wasn't learning to really work to use those muscles properly. 

And I think the fact that your friend was able to get him to track up under himself is a great sign! It means you know he has it in him to do it, even if it just was a couple of steps. Imagine bench pressing your own weight for the first time ever- you'd probably only have the strength to do one or two reps, maybe. Diddly is the same- and he's carrying a rider too! Make sure once you get him to stretch his neck and lengthen his topline bit by bit that you make the reward riding quietly with a constant seat and hand to get the message across. 
You can also talk to him. My horse actually knows what "good boy" means, so that was helpful when teaching him what to do. If he enjoys the sound of your voice, just chat with him to keep him calm and listening to you. I think horses really like that.


----------



## Ninamebo

10 Steps to Check Saddle Fit - Quick and Proven

This is a really good site. Check for bridging because if you think all else feels good that one might be hiding from ya. And all my other saddle fitting tips are in this article  good luck!


----------



## CandyCanes

It could very well be ulcers... I have thought about that. 
When I put my leg on, his ears go back, and when I tighten the girth, he is very cinchy, and when I squeeze for the canter, he swishes his tail. His previous diet and life style was not ideal, I must admit. He only got hay, maybe twice a day, he was out in a bare (I mean bare) paddock for 2 hours a day, he was stable kept, he got more concentrates than fibre, and he was ridden 5 days a week in the sand arena. Not a very fun life. He did actually weave a TINY bit when I got him, but he has since stopped as he is turned out at night, and most of the day, only in to be ridden, or if the vet/ farrier are coming. He also box walked, which he still does from time to time if he is a bit stressed, when his friend goes off riding. 
I know how to get him long and low now, but I'm hesitant to do it yet, as it will require him to have a bridle on, and it uses pressure and release, which atm is the last thing he needs, if he has teeth problems. But very soon, I will be doing long and low, which will raise his back, and sttrreeeettttccchhh his outline out! 
Thank you for the saddle fitting link  I will be checking all those things out 
You don't know how grateful I am for your support and help! 
#grateful!


----------



## jaydee

It does sound as if ulcers are a possibility so worth putting him on some meds for that
Back problems are sounding like a big possibility too


----------



## CandyCanes

I doubt they are severe anyway... His performance nor coat have not deteriorated. But meds would obviously be a good idea. Even if he doesn't have ulcers, meds won't do any har. 
Back problems to also...he has a slight roach back anyway which we would like resolved or checked. Its extremely likely thats its only something very small but could help him come into an outline so much more quickly and easily if it is fixed.


----------



## jaydee

Flo gets ulcers when she's on meds for her arthritis for any length of time - they don't affect her coat and she keeps reasonable weight on too but they sure make her cranky and very sensitive to groom in those areas that are affected so I put her on something called U-Gard now as soon as she starts the meds and I've had no more trouble with her
The roach back thing - worth checking that out. It might be something he was born with and nothing you can do about that but it could be related to an old accident that's done some damage to the spine


----------



## CandyCanes

His coat, nor temperament are not affected anyway. He doesn't mind his barrel or near his stomach being touched or poked or groomed. He just puts his ears back a little when I girth up. If I do it slowly, he doesn't mind, but if you pull it up too quickly he will turn and look at you very meanly!


----------



## jaydee

That sounds more like back pain - get him checked out ASAP
I would be inclined to get a vet on board - not sure if that's a legal requirement anyway in Ireland when you have any chiro. work done


----------



## CandyCanes

Oh the vets out here aren't great.... I wouldn't trust them for dealing with a horses back or feet (they made a bags of one of our horses feet once). 
We called the chiropractor, but he is so booked up. He mainly deals with race horses, who always come first. We are trying our best, but there really aren't many good chiro's in Ireland.


----------



## Allison Finch

First of all, I really like your attitude! You have asked for honest critique and you are open to all suggestions, instead of shutting down. Good for you!

I see talent in you and your horse. However, there are things that you can work on.

1. I see that you are often behind the movement. Your upper body leans back to the point that your shoulders are sometimes behind your hips. Being in an upright, dressage-like position doesn't mean that you should be leaning back. This will tend to make it harder to use your seat in a relaxed and efficient manner.

2. when you start trotting, your arms lock up and become very stiff. This makes it impossible to have a soft, constructive contact with your horse's mouth. That's a reason for your horse's reluctance to come into your hand. You need to unlock your shoulders and elbows, raise your hands until you have a straighter line between your elbow and the horse's mouth and allow your hand to flow with the horse's movement. No matter what the horse's head movement is, you need to be able to maintain the very same contact, not "loose/tight/loose/tight" causing the reins to snap on his mouth.

have someone hold the reins close to the horse's mouth. You hold the reins in a normal manner. Have the other person pull and give the reins in a manner similar to a horse's natural head movement while walking. Unlock your shoulders and elbows until you can follow that movement without ANY change in the amount of contact you have.

3. your horse is very unbalanced and has a very poor bend. This is crucial for the horse to be able to canter a smaller circle. learning to properly bend and balance your horse is something a trainer can help you with. It *can* be learned here on the forum (kind of....), but on a thread meant for just that.

4. your horse has little respect for your leg. He needs to move off of the leg the minute you ask him to. You are bringing your leg WAY out of position (too far behind the girth) to try to nag him forward. Your leg needs to stay nearer the girth to properly send him forward.

I would carry a dressage whip. I would softly ask him to move forward. If he ignores the leg, use it a little stronger as a squeeze (NOT a kick). If he ignores this, give him a smart tap on the haunch then PRAISE him when he moves forward. He will soon learn to move forward because he wants the praise AND he knows if he ignores, the tap is coming. Be quick to reward even the smallest improvement. Don't wait for perfection before you offer praise.

Start working on these things and you will have better "tools" to go to the next steps (bend and balance).


----------



## CandyCanes

Thanks so much allison That was a very thought provoking post. 
I WILL get that ****** to move off my leg if it's the last thing I do! I will carry a dressage whip (yay... I actually have one and haven't lost it!) and I will use it! 
At the moment, I am going to lunge him in a bungee, until his back is checked, rather than riding him. I also need his teeth done. And his saddle checked (that I will do on the forum at a later date) He might learn to hold himself up with regular lunging, contributing to better turns and circles. I know my riding needs a lot of work, and with the help of my instructor, I am hoping to improve my position, and get this darned horse into a good outline once and for all!


----------



## Allison Finch

Saddle, back and teeth are a great way to eliminate some factors which MAY be causing resistance. However, much of what I see can be simple stiffness and lack of proper contact/bend/impulsion...... 

You see, when a horse is unbalanced, they cannot use much impulsion as it will be built on too shaky a foundation. Your horse counterbends and leans in on all of his circles. A horse HAS to lean in, if he is not bending *(like a bicycle going around a turn...it doesn't bend, so leans in). This lean will make your weight lean in too. This further unbalances the horse.

Learn to make your contact constructive, so you can ask the horse to bend without resistance. Then it will be time to work on his bend. THEN it will be time to work on his impulsion.

Oh, my....I wish I could work with you!! I love your willingness to learn!.

So much of what you need to learn must be done in the proper order. Working on impulsion before your horse is balanced, will accomplish nothing and build more resistance.


----------



## Allison Finch

CandyCanes said:


> Thanks so much allison That was a very thought provoking post.


My pleasure!



> I WILL get that ****** to move off my leg if it's the last thing I do! I will carry a dressage whip (yay... I actually have one and haven't lost it!) and I will use it!


I suggest you work on better contact first. Once you have that, he will be more willing to risk moving more forward. Right now, it might not be too comfortable for him to do that.



> At the moment, I am going to lunge him in a bungee, until his back is checked, rather than riding him.


I am not a huge lunging fan. I do more ground driving at W/T/C than any lunging. I just don't think lunging is a great way to teach a horse much, but that's just me.



> I also need his teeth done. And his saddle checked (that I will do on the forum at a later date)


YES!!



> He might learn to hold himself up with regular lunging, *contributing to better turns and circles*.


Maybe, but not likely. Better turns and circles come from better bend and impulsion. These he can really only learn with you using your leg/seat/and hand in a manner to give him the tools to do that. Lunging simply will allow him to counterflex and go around heavy on the forehand and stiffly. Ground driving can help tech bend and balance, but only if you know how to ground drive properly.



> I know my riding needs a lot of work,


THIS attitude will help you learn SO much faster than the average student. You are like a sponge and seem to soak up knowledge well.



> and with the help of my instructor, I am hoping to improve my position, and get this darned horse into a good outline once and for all!



WHOA!! Not so fast! That "outline" ONLY comes when everything else is going properly. Only when the horse is ridden by a constructive rider, when the horse is properly bent and balanced, when the horse is ENGAGED and using proper impulsion and is in front of your leg, AND only when the horse is moving willingly into the bridle. No amount of force will ever achieve that, if you want it correctly.

do thing very carefully and in order and you will quickly see improvement. Do things out of order and you will have a resistant horse who will never be moving properly.


----------



## CandyCanes

My reins tend to slip through my fingers, meaning I get a crappy contact with his mouth. I have to remember to hold my reins more firmly, like a little bird.  So, should I continue to, through all paces keep a constant elastic contact with his mouth? I find it so hard, as his head goes up then down then back up again!


----------



## Allison Finch

CandyCanes said:


> My reins tend to slip through my fingers, meaning I get a crappy contact with his mouth. I have to remember to hold my reins more firmly, like a little bird.  So, should I continue to, through all paces keep a constant elastic contact with his mouth? I find it so hard, as his head goes up then down then back up again!


Yes, you must maintain a constant elastic contact. Will it always be the same amount of contact. No! The amount of contact will change depending on what you are trying to achieve. For instance, a half halt is a dramatic (OR subtle) change in the amount of contact.

Soft hands do not mean soft fingers! So many riders get this wrong. Even I tend to ride with too soft of fingers. Reins slipping through your fingers really sabotages good contact. It means that you will have to regather the contact, making for a huge interruption in the elastic and constructive contact. Firm hands does not mean hard hands. "Good hands" come more from the unlocked and elastic shoulders and elbows than any hand.

The head going up is a horse who has completely backed away from the bridle and will not move forward into it. The* main reason* is lack of constructive and comfortable contact. The second most common reason is lack of bend/balance and lack of impulsion.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Allison Finch said:


> You see, when a horse is unbalanced, they cannot use much impulsion as it will be built on too shaky a foundation. Your horse counterbends and leans in on all of his circles. A horse HAS to lean in, if he is not bending *(like a bicycle going around a turn...it doesn't bend, so leans in). This lean will make your weight lean in too. This further unbalances the horse.


Excellent advice, I've just realized how true this is!


----------



## Ninamebo

Another bicycle analogy I enjoy: You ride your bike to the grocery store and come out with a big bag of groceries. You hold the handlebars with one hand, and hang the bag in the other hand. You have to make a right turn to get home, which hand steers and which hand holds the bag going around the turn?

Answer: left hand steers and controls, right hand holds the bag. if you tried pulling the handlebars over with the right hand, along with the bike leaning to the right, it will topple over. (As an awful bike rider, that would be me if I tried executing the latter).

It's the same with riding- the outside rein controls the direction and balances the horse in the bend. It's why we are always told to stop focusing on the inside rein (sometimes even told to drop the inside rein entirely when learning the concept) and really think about where the outside rein is guiding the horse.

First time I heard this: Mind. Blown. 

Also, Candy, on a different note, here's a vid from a great DVM in my area that shows where to palpate for ulcers. Of course, if your horse is having back pain from the saddle, this may not be the best indicator, but it will help you figure out if something physical is going on.


----------



## Zexious

A note on ulcers--my boy gets them. He shows no changes in his behavior, or his coat. He does drop weight, though. He is a worrier... poor guy.


----------



## jaydee

Allison you need to go on a global road trip!!!


----------



## Allison Finch

I kinda do, when I'm doing clinics!! LOL!

Well, maybe "Global" is a bit grandiose.....

I did see some horses on my Indonesia trip, but I doubt they would be great dressage horses or jumpers.


----------



## jaydee

You have a really good way of making things really simple and straightforward - what I call 'demystifying' so anyone can understand - so much better than all the technical jargon some trot out that leaves people with a blank look on their faces!!!


----------



## CandyCanes

Yay! Dentist is coming Friday at lunch. The chiro won't be here till January though


----------



## tinyliny

I hope that what I was saying seems like pretty much exactly the same thing Allison said, since that is pretty much what I wanted to convey. I mean about contact .
Darn words! I don't always have the right ones at the right time.


----------



## Ninamebo

^completely agree! It's my downfall in teaching- sometimes my best way of explaining something is "it's just the way it is"...


----------



## tinyliny

Or , just get Allison to stand behind you, and then you lip-sync what she is saying.


----------



## jaydee

Some people just have the knack for teaching and some don't - I'm one of those that doesn't!!!
Good luck with the dentist CandyCanes


----------



## CandyCanes

Oh oh oh! I have pictures of diddly's saddle on him, if you care to tell me if it fits?
Just so you know:
I can get 4 fingers between pommel and wither
slide my hand down the front of the saddle with no obstructions from the shoulder blade. 
See daylight through the gullet
Fit my hand between the area just above the girth, and his ribs
The saddle ends just before his last rib. 









































































Does it fit... From what you see?  Sorry to keep bothering you all


----------



## tinyliny

the shadows do not allow a person to see how the front edge of the tree follows the barrel. But, the balance of it suggests a good fit. nice saddle, too.


----------



## CandyCanes

Yeh... Those bloody shadows. It was getting dark very quickly, so for some better pictures, I'll have a shot on Sunday *prays for sun*. So far, I'm not getting any indications that is it a bad fit, so I don't quite know.


----------



## Ninamebo

When you retake the pics put them in the saddle fitting section so that they will get more traffic by really awesome people that know their saddle stuff


----------



## jaydee

Another thing to consider with saddles is some of them appear to give plenty of clearance without a rider but have a tendency to 'collapse' when someone sits on them
If he's a bit sensitive with the girth it might be worth getting a sheepskin lined one


----------



## CandyCanes

Will do ninamebo... I was a little reluctant just then, as I have been overloading the forum with posts.  
I will see if I can get someone to check if they can see daylight down the gullet when I am in the saddle. 

Update: Diddly had very sharp teeth which would have been very uncomfortable., especially with the bit in his mouth. The dentist said it was quite likely that this was the reason he was throwing his head up. No wolf teeth though.


----------



## jaydee

You might have solved a big chunk of his problem - I'd give him some time without a bit to break the cycle now - and give his mouth time to get right


----------



## CandyCanes

That's what I'm hoping. Maybe a week off of using the bit?


----------



## Ninamebo

Yeah ride bites for a little while to let his gums heal. They're probably pretty sore. But at least now you can check that mark off the list!


----------



## jaydee

I think how long you leave him might be a trial and error thing - give him a week and then see what he's like, go back to bitless if he still seems to want to avoid your hands


----------



## CandyCanes

Ok thanks... I'll video my ride when I do ride him with a bit in a week


----------



## CandyCanes

Ok, update on today. I rode in a head collar with reins attached again. He was a bit better. His head was a little lower. One annoying thing though, was that every now and then when I went into canter, he would put his ears back, and give a small buck as if to say 'ouch!' It happened twice today. So I'm not sure what to think of that. He doesn't have ulcers anyway. I followed the advice of the man in the video posted by ninamebo, and nothing happened. So I am utterly ruling them out now. 

Here are better pictures of the saddle:


----------



## Skyseternalangel

That saddle doesn't look level to me, and the panels along the shoulder I think would fit better if they were re-flocked to better follow the contour. But I'm an amateur, only a saddle fitter that has had training can know exactly what to change.


----------



## Ninamebo

The third and fourth photos tell me that the gullet might be a hair narrow for him. But you should be placing the saddle another two or so inches back from his shoulder. Static it might look ok but moving the shoulder blade shifts back and will drive into the panel, pinching even more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CandyCanes

OK so move thesaddle back 2 inches. Will that stop the pinching or should I get a new saddle altogether
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yogiwick

I would get a professional saddle fitter, esp since he has been having issues. They aren't too expensive.


----------



## tinyliny

Ask Unclearther to look at that saddle fit.


----------



## Allison Finch

CandyCanes said:


> That's what I'm hoping. Maybe a week off of using the bit?


That would be an excellent idea. Let those lesions caused from the sharp points heal. Heck, hop on him (in a ring) with just a halter or a neck rope and have a little fun with him.

The saddle looks reasonable. However, it looks like it has foam panels, so reflocking it probably not an option. I would get a fitter to look at it. Without running my hands down the panels, it is not easy to determine a good fit.

BTW., you are NOT bothering us with your questions. You are a delight, with your quick learning attitude. Ask away. I, for one, welcome any questions from you.


----------



## jaydee

Candycanes - you are a very mature young person and have taken all critique in a really positive way - so I agree you are a pleasure to (try to) help
That saddle doesn't seem to sit right on him somehow - if anything it seems to sit too far back and puts the girth position a long way from his leg so if it moves back at all when you ride it might pinch his shoulders
The ears back at canter might be him saying ' I can't be bothered to do this' or it might be discomfort - you need his back checked to rule that out really


----------



## Clava

CandyCanes said:


> Ok, update on today. I rode in a head collar with reins attached again. He was a bit better. His head was a little lower. One annoying thing though, was that every now and then when I went into canter, he would put his ears back, and give a small buck as if to say 'ouch!' It happened twice today. So I'm not sure what to think of that. He doesn't have ulcers anyway. I followed the advice of the man in the video posted by ninamebo, and nothing happened. So I am utterly ruling them out now.
> 
> Here are better pictures of the saddle:


The saddle is tipping back and not level (to my eye). This could indicate it being a little narrow, and might mean your weight ends up too far back.


----------



## Yogiwick

If you're going to do it yourself (see if you can have an experienced friend or something help you!) I would put a rear riser underneath and then re evaluate. I think it may be too narrow like that but the first step is to have it level and in the correct position.


----------



## CandyCanes

Oh wow! Got loads of replies!  Sorry, I just tend to think I'm being a bother... Asking a million questions a minute! Heh. 

Anyway, I know of someone who will be very likely to help me. (Possibly) for free. I have a _feeling_ that the saddle isn't what's bothering him. He acts the same with both saddles... Which leads me to the next thing (expenses expenses)... His back. He did another buck today as we were going into canter. Definitely something up to creak there. What leads me to believe that it is not the saddle, is that the very first saddle we had on him, did not fit. And boy did he tell us. As soon as I took the saddle off the door, it was ears back and try to bite. Yet after the first ride in the brown saddle (the too big one), he did not do this anymore. Nor with the little black saddle in the images. For now, I am going to have to stick with the black one, and put a thick saddle pad under it. I know that definitely doesn't fix my problem, but as of now, it seems to fit both me and him better than the brown saddle, so I will need to wait just a while. I think his back is first priority. When we get that done, and crossed off the list... Onto the saddle! If there is something big wrong with his back anyway, it is best to get that re adjusted, first rather than getting a saddle fitted, then getting his back done, only to find the saddle doesn't fit. Unlikely, but possible! 


Uh oh..... Here comes another question... Quick grab it... Darn. It escaped. Is it possible to have get the gullet on a saddle that isn't a synthetic changed? If it is possible, I might just have to get the gullet changed, and a rear riser put under the saddle.


----------



## Yogiwick

Saddle is relative. Saddle can cause a sore back so then ANYTHING will hurt, OR he will _expect_ everything to hurt.

I'm going through this with my own horse. I call him my princess and the pea gelding lol.

I would go vet-chiro-saddle fitter. I did lots of slow bareback work with my boy focused on head set (so he wasn't looking at the sky) and just moving nicely and being happy, then experimented with saddles.


----------



## jaydee

You can have the saddle re-flocked so it sits higher off his back if its the right type of saddle to be able to do that with. You'd need to take it to a saddler to get the answer to that one


----------



## CandyCanes

Ok, so my saddle can't be re flocked, nor can it have the gullet changed. Most irritating. I lunged him today with just the head collar on. No bit or saddle. He was very unhappy. I think its his back more than anything. I didn't get him to canter on the lunge, but I suspect he would have done a buck. I'm now on the lookout for a new saddle as it seems I will have to sell both of my others.


----------



## jaydee

Maybe it would be better to rest him until you can get that back checked


----------



## CandyCanes

Suppose so. Shame. I'm going to keep ringing the chiro until he comes. 

At the moment, I am looking at other saddles. I am considering this one, in 16 inches long, with a gullet of medium wide. I'm not sure whether to risk ordering it as I can't check the fit :-/
Kincade Redi-Ride Quick Switch All Purpose Saddle - €180.00 : The Tack Room.ie, Ireland's leading online equine retailer, selling Saddlery, Rugs, Competition Clothing, equine footwear and more!

Would it _probably_ fit him, as he and I need a 16 inch saddle with a medium wide gullet. That's really the only 2 requirements I have. I got lucky with my pony saddle which I ordered for candy as she was fine in it. But a pony is a little different. 
Btw that particular saddle I linked has a changeable gullet so if he fattens up or slims down or what ever I can always change it.


----------



## jaydee

I never really thought of the Kinkade range as being that great - Ok for some things but I'm not a huge fan
If I was you I'd get a saddler to come out and try a range of different ones on him and he can adjust to fit if needs be.


----------



## CandyCanes

I will have to try a different saddler. The one we got last said the brown saddle fit him. So obviously, I assumed it did, not knowing a huge amount about fitting, until it was pointed out. Silly me. 
Oh, what did you not like about that range?


----------



## jaydee

Maybe they've improved their quality but I bought some Kinkade bridles for working them in when I was in the UK and they didn't hold up that well
You might be able to find a good quality second hand leather saddle that could be re-flocked to fit for no more money


----------



## CandyCanes

Ah ok. I am going to chance my arm taking the brown saddle back to the shop saying I was mislead into believing it fitted. If I don't get my money back (poo!) then I don't and I will try and sell it on. Then get an actual fitter who actually knows what they're talking about to come out


----------



## ligoleth

I am going to point out a few things that I saw.

In your first and second video, you look like you are in a chair seated position. Meaning your legs too forward, and not under you. 

Use more seat, less feet. I see you are constantly nagging him at the trot, and that does you no good. Have a more active seat and he should respond to it. The speed of your body should dictate how fast he goes. 

Your legs look incredibly stiff at the trot and your toes point outwards rather than more straight, which looks like you bump him even more as you try to post. Again, dictate the speed of the horse with your body. It will mean more work for the both of you, but it means a more relaxed horse who doesn't have to worry about being nagged at. 

His back end doesn't move freely, which as others comment, shows some stiffness which, again, could dictate pain or tension. A relaxed horse in an active trot should have a swinging hip that is flexible and... cushiony? If that makes sense? 

A bitless bridle does not prevent pain in the mouth. It still holds pressure on the side of the cheeks, which, if the teeth are sharp anyway, are just having more pressure placed on them.


----------



## ligoleth

Also, I never have my hands below the withers. I typically keep them at the pommel of my saddle so I don't accidentally yank on the horse's mouth. 

This video helped me a lot in relaxing my legs in the posting trot .


----------



## Clava

jaydee said:


> Maybe they've improved their quality but I bought some Kinkade bridles for working them in when I was in the UK and they didn't hold up that well
> You might be able to find a good quality second hand leather saddle that could be re-flocked to fit for no more money


 
Kinkade bridles are always disappointing and very poor quality, I wouldn't touch their saddles.


----------



## jaydee

I'm not seeing a chair seat in that video of Candycanes. 
In the video posted by Deschute the rider seems to have a really hollow back and is pitching herself right over the pommel so I'm not sure I really like it that much - but she is doing a good job of pushing the horse forwards on a long loose contact so its stretching downwards into the bridle which is what CC's horse needs to learn to do


----------



## CandyCanes

I'm (not to toot my own horn) seeing the chair seat either. I have been told that my legs slip too far back, rather than forward to be honest. He has never really responded to my seat unfortunately. My old pony did so very easily, but he just doesn't seem to. But I am getting dressage lessons, so maybe that will help. I am also not using a bitless bridle, but a head collar with reins attached reins. 

The physiotherapist is coming to diddly on Monday morning, to massage his back and help make him feel better for a while. Until we can get the chiro. 
I was told by tiny (I think) to, if he holds his head up high, to hold my hands high too, to maintain the straight line from his bit, up through my arm. 
No update on the saddle yet.


----------



## ligoleth

it doesnt matter if it is a halter or not. The direct reining of it will put pressure on his mouth, thus, pain.

I am probably wrong about the chair seat, but they just look a little forward to me. it might be the length of the stirrups that make it look like a chair seat. 

If he doesnt respond well to seat, then that is something to work on because nagging wont help. if anything, it will irritate the horse and make more problems. Be a leader, not a nagger.


----------



## Yogiwick

Remember Deschutes. The horse had his teeth done. She is currently riding in a halter just to give him some time off before putting the bit back in.


----------



## ligoleth

Oh, I didnt catch that part. My apologies.


----------



## rhosroyalvelvet

I have avoided posting on this because I hate giving wrong information that is wrong as it can affect both horse and rider in the long run. I have agreed with mostly everyone so far and felt no need to post either as you were all saying things that I would do or have been told. However I do not agree with Deschutes. 
A: I do not see a chair seat. Yes she seems to be sitting on the pommel of the saddle and needs to seat back on the two cushions God gave us but her leg is not too far forward just her position in my eye. You know if you are in a chair seat if you look down and can see your toes i.e you should not be able to see your toes.

B: I don't like that video you posted (I have no sound so just on riding). The rider seems to be working way to hard in her rise and when she is in the "up" postiton she is right over the pommel but then sits down right by the cantel. I don't think that you should change your position in the saddle that drastically when rising.

C: I do believe that you should keep nagging. Yes if the horse isn't listening to your leg you should give them a tap with the whip to let them know you mean it. Your leg should be on everytime you sit always. I was always told that you should keep nagging like when getting a horse into your hand for example. If you just try and force them in or tell them bossily the horse can get thick with you. But if you stay calm, don't get frustrated and just keep asking the horse should finally submit which you reward greatly. If you keep asking the horse will finally answer. As my mum always says don't tell just ask 

Good Luck Candycanes. I'm sure with all this wonderful advice you'll be blitzing the eventing fields in no time. P.S Is it Ted who is coming for his back?


----------



## rhosroyalvelvet

Oh and by the way the leg being on is meant to be the calf sqeezing him like a tube of toothpaste/ giving him a big hug with your legs not banging away with your heels. and if he is not listening at all then you do give him a tap with the whip.


----------



## CandyCanes

That's ok deschutes  
Thanks rhos  Yes it is ted who is doing his back! Do you know him by any chance?


----------



## rhosroyalvelvet

Yes he is great. Update us after he comes


----------



## CandyCanes

Uhhh.... That could be AGES away. Well well well after Christmas.


----------



## rhosroyalvelvet

Thought you posted saying that the physiotherapist was coming on monday...._The physiotherapist is coming to diddly on Monday morning, to massage his back and help make him feel better for a while._ 
When I asked I meant was that Ted...


----------



## CandyCanes

Oh, right no... Sorry, chiropractor as in Ted. Physio is someone else


----------



## CandyCanes

OK, we put a medium wide gullet in the brown saddle. Just wondering if it fits any better now. Previous gullet was a medium. 
































































Any ideas?


----------



## CandyCanes

Bumping.. Anyone?


----------



## tinyliny

the angle of that saddle looks about right to me. is it a Wintec? can you get a pic of you sitting in it? those artificial saddles have such stiff panels when no one is in them but they compress quite a bit when a rider is aboard. is this a Cair saddle? air inside? foam?


----------



## CandyCanes

Oh course  I will try and get a picture of me in it in the morning. It is a wintec.cair saddle. Brand new... Juat about. Its only about 4 months iold.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Again the panels are very straight, but will wait until I see photos of you sitting in it. Preferably without a pad so we can see the curvature a lot more clearly.


----------



## CandyCanes

Ok, got pictures... So sorry about my attire and my 'reins'. At the moment we have a lot of blizzards coming in showers and there are only a few minutes between each shower meaning I only had a little time to grab pictures. So I went out in my jeans... And my stripy socks, and put two ropes on Diddly's head collar, and sadly had to vault on (oh that will do wonders for his back) as I forgot my stirrups. So anyway sorry about that. 
Here are the pictures...


----------



## Yogiwick

Looks like the saddle might be sitting on his shoulder again. Make sure it's behind his shoulder.

In the 4th pic it looks like it's popping up in back but looks ok in the other ones. Does it move at all?

Is there adequate gullet clearance?


----------



## CandyCanes

Grrr... Too far forward again! I have a habit of that. I've been told the saddle is too long for him though... Its a 17inch. But I my self can't be sure... I didn't even know it was possible for a saddle to be too long for a horse, as long as the horses back is an adequate length and thesaddle is standard size. Diddlys back is the correct length and my saddle is that long really... Is it possible?

Yep, lots of clearance. When I'm aboard you cansee daylight though the gullet. What exactly do you mean by popping up... As in the back of the saddle is moving upwards? 

Its a close contact jumping saddle if that makes absolutely any difference to anything.


----------



## jaydee

The saddle gives clearance along his back but looks overall too big for him
He doesn't look to be the build for a medium wide fit - he's quite a narrow sort of horse and they are more aimed at the welsh cob and light weight cobs
If you want something that works well for low level dressage and still be an all round saddle you should maybe try the VSD range


----------



## CandyCanes

Diddly is definitely medium wide. A medium is too narrow fo him . The little black sddle was a medium.


----------



## rhosroyalvelvet

All I feel confident saying is it's too far forward and when brought back is too long...


----------



## jaydee

CandyCanes said:


> Diddly is definitely medium wide. A medium is too narrow fo him . The little black sddle was a medium.


This saddle looks way bigger than the black saddle - what is the difference in measurement in the two?
Have you gone for a saddle that's not only wider but also longer?
It looks like you'll be sliding around in it


----------



## rhosroyalvelvet

jaydee said:


> This saddle looks way bigger than the black saddle - what is the difference in measurement in the two?
> Have you gone for a saddle that's not only wider but also longer?
> It looks like you'll be sliding around in it


Yes I think that this saddle is not only too big for horse but also for rider. But I'm no expert...


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Flap length is great for your thigh but the seat is too big. Also, as others have said.. too far forward on his shoulders. The panels fit a lot better compressed and likely will be 'perfect' on his back if the saddle seat was fit to you. Right now, it's too big (you could fit more than a hand between your seat and the back of the saddle = you'll be swimming in it.)


----------



## CandyCanes

Ah. I haven't a clue what I'm going to do.... That saddle cost over five hundred euro. It was recommended to me by the saddle fitter so I bought it. Its a 17 " medium wide. The black saddle is candys saddle... A 15 1/2 " medium.


----------



## jaydee

I find that a 17 inch fits me and my 15.2's really well - and you are a tiny little thing compared to me CandyCanes!!!


----------



## CandyCanes

Lol! I am very small! But diddly is a big old monster! He's 16.2! (And he's only a baby, so he might well grow! Don't think so, but he might!)

Anyway, the saddle fitter is going to contact wintec, and ask them if they can exchange it, for a saddle of exactly the same make, but a 16". Because bar the length, I think it fits.


----------



## jaydee

You might find a 16 1/2 works better for you both
I didn't realize that he was 16.2.


----------



## CandyCanes

Yeh... Big boy. 16 1/2 you say. OK. I've measured from my hip to my knee whilst sitting down, and calculated I need a 16", but a half inch won't make a massive difference.


----------



## CandyCanes

OK, had a look, the smallest I can get is 16 1/2 anyway. So there is no 16"  Fail .


----------



## CandyCanes

Dilemma! Help! I need a 16" saddle...Because I feel a 16 1/2" is too big for me and diddly. I need 1 with a changeable gullet, but only CAIR saddles have changeable gullets. Horse saddles don't go below 16 1/2"... So i need a pony saddle. But you can't get CAIR pony saddles. Which means I am screwed.


----------



## Yogiwick

Can you put the saddle in the correct position and take a pic even and parallel to his side? Then immediately over his rump at the back (don't get kicked!) and from the front, then from the sides? All your pics are at angles which makes it hard to see things.

I have a saddle with a changeable gullet that is not CAIR.. I'm sorry I don't know what it is though... :/

Is there a different saddle fitter that can help you? Sounds like you could use better advice.

I *think* if the saddle was in the correct position it would fit OK, aside from the overall size for both of you.

Make sure it fits all around. I put a saddle on my horse recently and it looked perfect until I noticed there was daylight halfway down behind the flap. Weird spot. (I think that's the "twist"?)

Do some research, we are happy to help but only you are seeing it in person and can feel it. Google, check things out!

Honestly, you should get something that fits you both perfectly, but if you aren't showing (sorry can't remember).. I have very short legs and have had my own horses for 12 years and only this summer was given a saddle that actually fit. It seemed way too small since my knees were actually on the flap! lol. Even riding in the schooling (smaller for kids) saddles very few fit me. So NOT ideal, but if you are comfortable in it not the end of the world (as long as it fits your horse)


----------



## CandyCanes

Wow! I sounded panicky! I only just discovered it 5 minutes before I posted, so I was in a mess. 
Unfortunately, this crappy saddle fitter is the only one for miles around. She is the only qualified one I know of. And she's not very good. She will be coming out again, but I am hoping that with my (sort of) new found knowledge of saddle fitting from you guys (Thank you!) I will be able to see if a saddle doesn't fit right. I'm just so annoyed that the saddle isn't just one inch shorter. I'm oh so tempted to get out the hack saw and saw off an inch off the back! Though I'm not sure I could classify the saddle as brand new if I did that....
Anyway... I am going to look at other saddles that aren't wintec, like through good (don't ask me how to spell it), and see if they have 16" with changeable gullet. The only way I can get a saddle on trial, so to speak, is if I get that bloody 'saddle fitter' out with it to try it on Diddly. Which seems to be my only option.


----------



## CandyCanes

Update!
The physiotherapist came out for diddly. She had a feel around, and had him turn in a tight circle, trot up and down, and be lunged. She had us put the saddle on him and told us straight out the we need a 16", as one that is not as wide at the back. Its more suited for a cob with a wide back. The space between the bottom of the back of the saddle and his back is quite big, meaning the saddle rocks backwards and forwards. But that stupid #?!~'[ saddle fitter told us the space was a good thing and was supposed to be there. Well, I can tell you I rang her up and gave her hell. My horses lumbar area is all tender now because all she wanted to do was sell me an expensive saddle, and she didn't give two bloody hoots about his welfare. I told her if she doesn't get wintec to take that bloody saddle back, she'll have another thing coming to her. 
(I don't really recommend ringing and taking the ear of your saddler, but I have a temper... I probably shouldn't have done that, but what's done is done).

ANYWAY. The physiotherapist also found that he has tight muscles on his hind quarters, probably from compensating for the saddle banging on his lumbar area. The other thing she found was he has a puled muscle on the back of his stifle, on the right hind leg. So every day for a week, we have to pick up this hind leg, and lift it under his belly, to touch the back of his elbow on his front leg. Then hold it for 10 seconds, then slowly bring it down under his body, so it is crossing under his belly to his left side. We also have to massage the tight muscles behind his lumbar area with the blunt end of a hoof pick, to loosen it out. She recommended placing a hot water bottle under his rug in that area to loosen the muscle. In a weeks time, we will lunge him, just lightly, letting him do his own thing. Then we introduce some poles, with the left side raised, yo make his stifle muscles work, and build back up. 
I am not to ride him until I get a proper fitting saddle and make sure that flaming saddle fitter stays of my property! So, anyway to some it up, it was nothing major, just some small things... The physiotherapist reckons that diddly pulled a muscle when he jumped our 1.40 metre fence. 
But three things are for sure:
New saddle... Stretches... Lunging.


----------



## jaydee

I did say that it looked more like a cob saddle didn't I!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## CandyCanes

If you absolutely MUST say I told you so, then so be it!
We are totally getting different saddle fitter. I'm thinking about going with this saddle.... Its a thorowgood... Thorowgood Pony Long Leg Saddle They only have 16" pony saddles. No horse saddles that size... The place I am getting this other saddle fitter from conventionally stocks thorowgoods.


----------



## jaydee

I bought a thorowgood saddle once - it was awful!!!!
I wish you could find a good second hand saddle that could be reflocked if needs be to bit your horse
It is possible to remove the CAIR panels from the Wintec saddles and flock them


----------



## CandyCanes

Ok... Right  
Well since 2 hours ago, I have changed my mind AGAIN.. And decided to go with a 16 1/2 inch. Probably this one:
Wintec | All Purpose 

Not sure about second hand... I've been looking around, and there are none that really suit my needs. The other place I'm looking at, with the saddle fitters, also stock wintec, so I'm ok there


----------



## rhosroyalvelvet

We have 3 thorowgoods and we find them excellent for sythetics! But Ideals are the best!


----------



## Hang on Fi

I have a dressage Thorowgood, in leather, love it!


----------



## Yogiwick

I thought you were going to get a 16 inch?

Definitely good to get rid of the saddle "fitter". Plenty of experienced horse people can help (though plenty think they can help, make sure they actually know!) and can do a very good job even without formal training.


----------



## tinyliny

Candy, how tall are you? the saddle seat size has more to do with your height and length of femur than size of your caboose (buttocks).

what is the main focus of the style of riding you want to do? if you want to do dressage, get a dressage saddle. if you want to do hunt seat, or jumping cross country, get a saddle with a more forward flap. Really , NO saddle does it all, or if it does, it will do so in a very diminished capacity.


----------



## CandyCanes

Right ok, I was going to get a 16", but you can only get pony saddles that size, and there is a very limited range, I have found and they don't have vsd saddles. So I am going with 16 1/2 inch. 
I think vsd, as I am going to event, but dressage saddles are extremely expensive. I want something I can jump in, but still do dressage in. So vsd I think. I'm quite tall... I reckon around about 6 ft. But I think 17" is still way too big. 
Also, btw, as the brown saddle is a jumping saddle, it is natural going to want to sit more forward than a saddle with a straight flap. I showed the physiotherapist where I position it (usually) and she said its waaayyy too far back, if its three fingers behind the shoulder, and it will do more harm than good that far back. She said, a dressage saddle, or something with a straight flap, OK, two to three fingers, but a jumping saddle needs to be more forward.


----------



## rhosroyalvelvet

tinyliny this ideal is one I use for dressage (lower level) showing and jumping. I can post pics of our other two ideals which I use for all three disiplines as well. It is very comfy and easy to stay in the right position in it no matter what I'm doing and it is my favourite saddle. Sorry I could not zoom in on saddle we got a new computer and it does not have and editing file (?) yet. None the less the ideals we have I find can be used for many for all the eventing disciplines but I do agree when you get to higher levels you will need to get separate saddles. Oh and please excuse my position :/


----------



## jaydee

I have an Ideal saddle and its probably one of the most comfortable saddles I've ever sat on - and it still looks as good as when I bought it so worth every penny
The company do a Design to Order service - which is what I chose as Willow has very low withers but a huge backside.
Design to order


----------



## CandyCanes

Unfortunately, I can only get a synthetic saddle... Cheaper than leather saddles with a changeable gullet. The ideals look ridiculously expensive and I don't know if they have changeable gullets. My budgets is about 300 hundred euro... Tops.


----------



## CandyCanes

Oh! Help! I'm severely torn... I love this saddle!!!!
Dressage Saddle Black Leather 16" 16 5" 17" 17 5" 18" Medium Wide COB Full Horse | eBay

Its not a scam or hoax, because A.) The sellers have 100% positive feedback, and B.) this is the site the saddle comes from... But its much dearer on the actual site...Black KSI Dressage Saddle. Available in 16" 16.5" 17" 17.5" & 18". | Irish Saddlery | Horse Wear & Equestrian Clearance Tack Shop


AH! I want it so badly. You have a money back guarantee and everything! And its medium wide fit! But I'm in such dilemma! Its not a changeable gullet saddle! I don't know if diddly is going to get way fatter! Hes medium wide atm and that hasn't changed since I got him, and he's gained a lot of weight since then... But I don't know!!! If only he could tell me how much wider he was gonna get! Talk me out of it! Quick!


----------



## CandyCanes

EDIT: We are going to bring diddly over to the shop and try the saddle on him there! Excited!!!!


----------



## tinyliny

it might work well for you. the deep seat would be ok for someone as tiny as you, but you can get a large enough flap length to accomodate your femur length.
i hope it works for you!


----------



## CandyCanes

I hope it does! I emailed them anyway... BTW: Have a great Christmas everyone... Sending good vibes your way 

Oh, just thought I'd throw this out there... I heard that dressage saddles are much more forgiving in their fit than jumping saddles... Am I right in saying this, or did I get the wrong end of the stick?


----------



## rhosroyalvelvet

Well my mum says that she always loved jumping in her dressage saddle... Merry Christmas to you too


----------



## CandyCanes

I have another saddle that fits him perfectly, but it is too wide. Its a jumping saddle, so I will use it when jumping... But I'm buying a riser for it. 

I'm not jumping in a dressage saddle, as A.) It puts you in the worst position for jumping, and I hear it HURTS when you lean forward over the high pommel... Particularly if you are of the male gender... B.) As it's not designed for jumping, it doesn't do wonders for the horses back. Jumping in a dressage saddle is the last thing diddly needs. 

Anyway, just posing the question again... Are dressage saddles more forgiving in fit than jumping/gp saddles?

EDIT: Does the flocking on the saddle in the picture, in the link I posted (the dressage saddle that is) look even? I've heard a lot of ebay saddles are rubbish... But at least I get to see this saddle in person and try it on diddly before decided to buy it!


----------



## rhosroyalvelvet

I dont know but my mum said it was the comfiest thing to jump in and the horse who got his back regularly checked was fine but I think you are doing the right thing better be safe than sorry


----------



## CandyCanes

Yeh.. Diddly is a sensitive ol' thing... I'm hoping the riser will provide a solution. This is the riser I'm thinking of, for the too wide saddle: Front Saddle Riser For Sale in Offaly : €25 - DoneDeal.ie


----------



## Yogiwick

The saddle either fits perfectly or is too wide. Can't be both .

I might try that riser if the saddle fits well behind but is a bit too close/low in front. They make level riser pads or you could use a half pad/mattis pad (would be my preference). Make sure the saddle fits with the pad if you use one, but ideally it should fit with no pad.

I feel a riser like that is a shortcut to getting a saddle to fit ("good enough") as opposed to actually getting a saddle that fits. If it works, do it, but I feel like with all the effort you have put in you should put in a little more to do it right.

Just my opinion 

If you are getting a dressage saddle and just want something to jump in and the saddle fits with the pad go for it, but I would make sure your main saddle is ideal.


----------



## CandyCanes

I am going to make sure my dressage saddle (if that is indeed what I buy) fits him like a glove  That will be his main saddle... I don't jump at home. Or very rarely anyway. So I will only be using the too wide saddle at events, or in jumping classes. So maybe once a month in the summer season... If that.


----------



## jaydee

If you're using the riser and extra padding as a short term thing - since you are expecting him to bulk out quite a lot (and I think he will) then I don't see a problem with it


----------



## CandyCanes

I'm infuriated though... If he bulks up a lot, and becomes a wide... The dressage saddle won't fit him  I'm not sure, if by the time he has fattened up (though he's already a fat horse!) if too long will have passed to exchange the dressage saddle for a wide fitting one, of the same make.


----------



## CandyCanes

Also, on one note... I'm tossing it up about whether, if the dressage saddle fits diddly, to buy a wide rather than a medium wide. What do you think... Will he become a wide? I'm not sure how much more muscle he will get... When I bought him, we was medium. Now he's got more muscle and fat so he's a mw. But I just don't know... Is there any test you can do to interpret what width your horse will be... Diddly is now 5 by the way. 
I know you do the string test height wise... But anything for width?


----------



## jaydee

I think you're starting to make to many plans that are based on 'what ifs'
A good leather saddle will usually part ex for another one without making a great loss - sometimes none at all if you take good care of it
Synthetic saddles don't have such a good second hand value
If the horse has any sort of a back problem then a poor fitting saddle is only going to make it worse


----------



## CandyCanes

Sorry.... You will commonly see me planning twenty years ahead or more 

I think I'm trailering Diddly up to the shop tomorrow... They aren't open today. I also found that there are saddle fitters on site... So they can tell me if the saddle fits! And a bonus... The saddle fitting advice is FREE! 
As there is a full guarantee that you can get your money back if the saddle doesn't fit, I can hopefully return it if diddly suddenly becomes a wide. Anyway will tell you that I take impeccable care of my saddles. With me, it wouldn't have a scratch, and would last me a lifetime (maybe not the horse... But me)... So I'm sure I can do a trade! So excited! Never ridden in a dressage saddle before.. Closest I've been is a General Purpose saddle!!!!


----------



## jaydee

Good luck
Its a shame they wont come out to you - the last time I bought a saddle in the UK (the Ideal) the man came out with over 20 saddles. That was a lot of getting on and getting off I can tell you!!!


----------



## CandyCanes

Then again... They have hundreds of saddles, and then I can try them ALL! If they came out I could only try a few  I'm quite sure we will find one to fit. Then I just have to wait for my mullen mouth bit to come, and his muscle to heal


----------



## CandyCanes

Ohhhhh myyyy gooossshhh the saddle arrived! I put it on his back, and from the word go it looked like a great fit!:
It looks level, when put in the correct position, I can see a load of daylight through the gullet, it has deeper panels, so the saddle is flush with his back, and won't rock like the other one. If I put pressure with the palm of my hand on the pommel, it doesn't move, and same with the cantle. I ca also run a hand down the front with no obstructions... I think it fits!!!
I'll post pictures soon, as right now its bucketing, and I don't want to damage it, in case I need to send it back. I'm going to ride in it too. Sorry, so excited.


----------



## CandyCanes

Ok, got pictures. 













































He had his ears back and head up when I rode in it, but that's not really much to go on atm, as he probably thinks its going to hurt him, as the other one did when it rocked. I lunged him in it also, and though he didnt seem particularly happy, he didn't do anything. He hasn't had the chiropractor out yet either, so he might still be sore in the back.


----------



## jaydee

I think you need to get his back checked out - you mentioned he had a slightly roached back - is it possible he has 'kissing spine' problem?
He might be more comfortable with a sheepskin numnah under the saddle 
The saddle looks to sit very high up off his back


----------



## rhosroyalvelvet

Oh I hope he doesn't have kissing spines. Isn't that meant to be quite serious.


----------



## CandyCanes

I have two sheepskin nummnahs, so I will use those. Could you please explain kissing spines? Can a chiro fix it? Apart from sitting high off his back, is there anything else wrong?


----------



## CandyCanes

Oh no... I looked up the symptoms... He has a few. He doesnt like to be girthed up and hes tense under saddle. Surely he can't? He just can't have jt... Hes so young.... 
Wouldn't the physiotherapist have seen it? Oh he cannot have it. If he has it he'll never be able to work hard again.


----------



## rhosroyalvelvet

I don't think he does because after asking some people they said he would be bucking. Like really bucking under saddle. He might though. I hope to God he doesn't...


----------



## CandyCanes

rhosroyalvelvet said:


> I don't think he does because after asking some people they said he would be bucking. Like really bucking under saddle. He might though. I hope to God he doesn't...



He does buck some when we go into canter but ive blamed the rocking saddle for that. It would have hurt his lumbar area so he did that. The phsyio never me.tioned anything and he showed no discomfort whenshe fiddled around (and not lightly either!) with his back. 
At the moment I'm seriously considering not doing jumping with him at a and turning him into a dressage diva. He wont go very far but I am really getting mkre drawn towards dressage than eventing. So it wont b so high impact on his back or joints then... But I just really don't want him to have kissing spines... But knowing my luck, he has it :'(


----------



## rhosroyalvelvet

Well I mean really bucking and very often.


----------



## tinyliny

Candy,


Dont go into a panic based on what someone on the internet says. our ability to even judge the fit of the saddle is limited to the accuracy of the photos you post, much less make any kind of diagnosis of a medical condition. there are lots of things that will make a hroes tense when you girth up, or buck when going into the canter. as for saddle fit, those that post there opinion on the saddle fit come from a vaying level of experience, so their ability to make good calls will also vary.

Don't panic.


----------



## CandyCanes

I'm so sorry. I have been flying into a flap rather regularly haven't I... Golly! Looking back, I really do go into a blind panic far too often! New years ressie: Calm the hell down. New years ressie 2: Only post when in a neutral state of mind. 
Thanks for the kind words tiny.. The mean a lot  I have researched kissing spines, and he doesn't _seem_ to have them. But the chiropractor should be able to give a more educated guess.


----------



## tinyliny

Keep Calm and Carry On!


----------



## CandyCanes

*calm state of mind* 
pressing question: is kissing spines progressive? As in gets worse over time. 
Only 2 symptoms he is displaying is cinchy and hollow back while riding.


----------



## jaydee

I didn't mean to panic you CandyC - just to try to impress on you the need to get his back checked out rather than keep swapping and changing saddles
A physio wouldn't know as much about skeletal problems as a well trained equine Chiro or Vet and when a horse shows signs of discomfort in his back you should always think two things - saddle fit and spinal issues - and eliminate both from the equation
I think having a numnah would help with his roach back - maybe the saddle on its own is putting pressure on it


----------



## CandyCanes

Oh, don't worry, we always have a nummnah on him... It just wasn't on for the pictures. Also when out showing he doesn't have one, but we always only take it off just as hes going into the class. So he basically always has one on. Also, its always sheepskin  
Also, we are definitely getting the back man out... We have called and are waiting for him to come out. We keep swapping saddles, because even with adjustments, the other saddles wouldn't fit anyway. I think the dressage is a better fit don't you?


----------



## jaydee

The dressage looks to be a better fit - just not sure how well it will ride.
How did it feel when you were on him?


----------



## CandyCanes

It felt pretty comfortable.. I felt quite high up... But comfortable. It is much more... Compact I suppose is the word, than the brown saddle. I actually fit property, and wasn't going a' swimming!


----------



## jaydee

I like a saddle that feels as if it sort of wraps around me a bit so it sounds as if it might be a good fit for you and the horse
I know the swimming thing - my one time boss was 6ft 2 and around 14 stone - if I ever rode on his saddle I used to feel like that!!!


----------



## CandyCanes

Update... 

Well, we took diddly over to a friends, who is an excellent saddle fitter... Not qualified, but she knows what to look for. She told us he really needs a wide, and also that the gullet was too narrow for his spine the whole way through. So we took the saddle back, and got a refund. We asked if they had one in wide... But just my luck, they didn't. So I'm right back to square one. We were also told to buy a pessoa to get him using himself, My bit has yet to arrive, he has a sore back,he has a pulled gaskin, and now on top of that I don't even have a saddle. Lovely. My only hope is that wintec will exchange the brown saddle to a dressage saddle for me.But I have a problem... The panels were not deep enough at the back, causing it to rock. I don't know if all wintec are like that, with rather shallow panels. I compared the panels to those of my almost fitting but not to be dressage saddle. There is a difference of about 2 inches in the depth... The deeper, obviously being the dressage saddle. So I have to know if all wintec's are like this... Or to the dressage ones have deeper panels than the close contacts. I really like this one, as I despise the synthetic look. But from that, slightly terrible picture... I don't like the panel depth. Obviously I can't tell completely how deep the panels are, but they really look rather shallow. Wintec | Dressage

I will have to go back on my word somewhat... The only possible way to try the saddle is to.... Let that god ****ed "saddle fitter" back onto my property. As she works for a shop that supplies wintec saddles, they ship a saddle out to her, to "fit" (or not), and if it fits, according to her, we can swap it for the close contact. But if I'm going to have to have my wits about me, and check the saddle myself. I'm starting to get good (not to toot my own horn) at this saddle fitting business. I know what to look for now, and this women won't be able to fool me. I can and I will tell her what I think of her if she attempts to sell me a saddle with an obvious fitting flaw again. 
Rant over.


----------



## Yogiwick

Can your friend be there when the saddle fitter comes?


----------



## CandyCanes

That's an idea I haven't though of... That is a possibility, yes.


----------



## Yogiwick

If so that would be a VERY good idea. I think I said that before too, whether someone is a "saddle fitter" or no there are plenty of extremely experienced horse people that I would trust completely with saddle fit. Label does not an expert make


----------



## CandyCanes

Gotta agreed with you there... As there is only the one wintec dressage saddle that will possibly work, there's a likely hood it won't fit (the usual), so if we try that and it doesn't, we have another few actual good saddle fitters lined up. We got a recommendation off of this friend, so they must be good! They have a load of saddles they can bring out and try on him for us  

I have a few brands that I have ruled out entirely... Stubben (due to the really narrow gullet), thorowgood (the panels, I have noticed are very shallow at the back, and that won't work for diddly) and almost wintec. If the saddle there doesn't work, I have three brands entirely ruled out.


----------



## Yogiwick

CandyCanes said:


> Gotta agreed with you there... As there is only the one wintec dressage saddle that will possibly work, there's a likely hood it won't fit (the usual), so if we try that and it doesn't, we have another few actual good saddle fitters lined up. We got a recommendation off of this friend, so they must be good! They have a load of saddles they can bring out and try on him for us
> 
> I have a few brands that I have ruled out entirely... Stubben (due to the really narrow gullet), thorowgood (the panels, I have noticed are very shallow at the back, and that won't work for diddly) and almost wintec. If the saddle there doesn't work, I have three brands entirely ruled out.


Excellent!! Honestly if I were you I would go straight to the other saddle fitters, hopefully you will be dealing with experts, and a good saddle fitter will either have saddle's or be able to order/get saddles for pretty much any horse. While I personally like Wintec's I don't know of any saddle fitters that deal with them. Having ONE saddle that you can fit to a horse isn't the greatest. (Nor is it your horse's fault!)


----------



## jaydee

Rhosroyalvelvet seems to live in your area - where did she get her Ideal saddle from?
Maybe they could find you a good 'used' one that could be re-flocked to suit if needed?
I don't have a problem with things like the Pessoa or side reins for lunging if they're used correctly - and the emphasis really is on the correctly because if not they can make a bad situation worse


----------



## rhosroyalvelvet

We buy all our saddles on ebay, actually we buy nearly all our horsey things on ebay! If there is a saddle going for a good price in good condition and is a size that'll fit the size of ponies and horses we have she buys it same with bits bridles head rugs collars ect My mum kind of hoards saddles rugs bits and bridles so whenever a new horse comes we have a saddle to fit. So yeah. We have three ideals and I have used them as my main saddles for the last few years. LOVE them. So comfy and I can do anything in them


----------



## CandyCanes

Rhos certainly does live in my area  She always seems to beat me to it when buying the ideals on ebay! I am on ebay every hour looking for a saddle... No such luck yet. But I'm biding my time... We'll see if any of the saddles the saddle fitter comes with will fit Diddly. (I and this friend will make sure it does!), then I can exchange it for the brown saddle.


----------



## Yogiwick

Careful with eBay unless you are POSITIVE it would fit. I can see you buying and sending saddles back for the next couple years.


----------



## CandyCanes

Ok, sorry, old thread I know, but I don't feel the need to start a new one as I am asking for critique on the same horse and rider.

So I don't really see any difference to be honest, from the first video, even though I have had him adjusted and the saddle done etc etc etc. He does sometimes take light steps when we do transitions, and he can make a gorgeous shape when he wants to, but he once did it twice in that video. Typically as soon as the video was off, he did it most of the time when I asked him to trot on. 
So here we are... Prepare to be disgusted...
Diddlyschooling_zps5c033185.mp4 Video by muffin110 | Photobucket


----------



## Flipper

I actually do think he looks better, more relaxed. One thing to watch is sometimes I noticed when you were going round the first direction (can't remember which way) your outside rein was a little loose and inconsistent, remember it balances him so is important to keep contact. This was much more consistent when you changed direction. 

On from this note I would do a few more smaller circles and shapes and make sure you are turning him from the outside rein and leg, rather than the inside and keeping your outside rein, not giving it away. 

At times where he counter bends slightly , I would give him a little inside flexion quickly (but still a smooth movement) then return it, with inside hand opening slightly and inside leg giving a little squeeze. Make sure to keep your outside rein (don't give it) and outside leg there so he doesn't drift. This should help him rebalance slightly and understand the bend you are looking for. If it doesn't work just continue doing it calmly until he responds. 

I personally would loose the martingale when schooling (don't remember you having it in first video so maybe just a one off) as he may just get more annoyed with its restriction and will just be pulling against himself. 

Remember to keep your hand slightly higher (I no it is counterintuitive when they become giraffes!) and elbows a little more bent. 

I think his transition are looking pretty good! Maybe add in a few halt to trots to mix in up.


----------



## jaydee

I'm afraid I'm going to say that I see no improvement at all. Sorry its not what you want to hear but he looks stiff and tense and most of the time has a hollow back and neck and seems to be 'scuttling out' from underneath you
If he was my horse I'd be considering spending some money getting his back properly checked out at an equine clinic - X-ray, MRI, Ultrasound - whatever it takes to see if there is something going on that's bothering him
What's he like on the lunge?


----------



## CandyCanes

He does flex sometimes, and I think it is just me. When I have lessons, he really stretches and works well, so I really don't know if it is his back. But it might be. I don't really know.


----------



## tinyliny

I think the tranisitions up , and certainly down, were better. he is less boardy and seems even more relaxed in the trot.

unfortunaely, that "arena" is so small that it doesn't really afford you much room to allow him to move out and move "through" the giraffing reaction that he seems to do almost by habit. he has been doing this for a long time, and riders have been reacting with hand/rein work to his actions (which is only normal), but if you had a larger area to let him move out in, you could allow him more time to find that place that is right (yes, you'd have to encourage him to think about putting his head down, and yes, you'd have to raise your hands to do it, and yes, the martingale is no help here for that). and then you'd let him go forawrd with NOTHING happening on your part. 

he'd probably leave that good place and re-giraffe, but you could even allow him a bit of time to 'search' around for the right choice, while he trots forward, without automatically re-reining him down. you could get him to trot MORE forward instead, and he might then choose by his own accord to put his head down, and then you could offer him a nice long rein and let him "coast" along. he would soon figure out that having his head down is a great place to be.

since, however, you have a small "ring" to ride in, you would have to do that all at the walk.


----------



## jaydee

The small area certainly won't help him to stretch out - maybe that's why he's better when you have a lesson in a larger manege?
What's his head/neck position like out on a hack?


----------



## CandyCanes

Yeh its a real shame that my arena is so small, but its the best I can get. I dont canter him in there... Just walk and trot. So all I'm really concentrating on in there are my transitions and making bend on circles and be quick of my leg as he is a very lazy horse. He does really well on hacks and yesterday when we did upward transitions into trot and from halt to walk he lifted himself up and rounded for 5 strides before slowly coming back up. 
Im really trying to keep a firm, soft contact on the reins with 2 pounds of weight on the reins... I always had a much lighter contact before hand but my new instructor taight me to keep it mich firmer so diddly jas something to stretch into, and also to push him on a lot more. But I feel some improvement. The majority of his transitions now, once hes warmed up for 5 minutes, are now quite uphill and he drops his head down during the transitions and also for a few strides afterwards, as he lifts his back and powers through the hind end. So its jist a case I think of teaching him thats its really quite nice down there with a raised back and it wont hurt like it must have done previously. He has good and bad days... Yesterday was a great day and today was average. But hes having more good days.and he isnt so grouchy in the ring like sure you noticed in the first video. He now actually ****** his ears now and then in the ring and he swivels them aroumd too.
Sp Im taking that as a good sign. 
Sorry about grammar and spelling... My phone screen is very small and I am in a bit of a hurry as I need to bring one ofy cats into the vets!


----------



## jaydee

Be careful that you don't confuse power with speed 
I would get him out on hacks as much as possible and school him while you're riding him out and about - he'll be more relaxed and won't realize that its actually a 'lesson'


----------



## CandyCanes

I'm currently trying to find a happy medium between both power and speed... He needs a bit of both, lazy ******. I tend to leg yield him back and forth across the road a few times, and do some rein back, and when we turn into a field, or onto an adjacent road, I try to get a really good quarter circle. I also do shoulder in away from spooky things and also shoulder fore. The road is, essentially where I practice my lateral movements. 
However, it is too narrow for circles, so I have to be content with trying to get stick straight lines, but he is coming along nicely on the road, for sure  Better than he was, and not so much giraffing.


----------

