# What color? Grulla?



## JAultman (Sep 19, 2014)

Based on what I've found online, he looks like a Grulla to me. But I also read that many people mis-label horses as grulla when they're actually a dun buckskin, or something else. What do you think? Any experts? He has:
solid black dorsal stripe
light, cool tan color. "cool" as in not "warm". more gray-ish.
black stockings
one white partial pastern
zebra-striping and some mottling on arms/forearms
dark blackish face
black ears - just the top half of the back side, with some darkness at ear bases too.

Dam is a registered buckskin and the sire, I'm told, is a palomino. Never seen him and he isn't registered, but supposedly comes from two AQHA registered horses. He's now a gelding and wasn't supposed to have bred the buckskin mare... 

Pictures here:


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Hmmmm...I want to say grullo, but then those last two pics look almost dunskin...

I'd send in hairs to be tested, TBH.


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## JAultman (Sep 19, 2014)

What would be the key differences between dunskin (dun buckskin, yes?) and grullo/a?
It really doesn't matter much since we can't register him or anything. It's just that I have this thing where I don't want to call him grulla unless he truly is that.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Dunskins will end up looking like a buckskin with dun factor, so leg barring, a dorsal, and oftentimes cobwebbing on the face. The body is often a very light gold/creamy color, while the points stay very black/dark brown.

The late stallion, Hollywood Dun It, is a prime example of a dunskin:









Grulla/o is black with dun. So, the body is lightened a bit (diluted) and then there's the typical dun factors. The body tends to be almost a silvery cream color, while the points stay black/dark.


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## JAultman (Sep 19, 2014)

If I had to pick between the two, I'd say our colt looks much more like the second than the first. But we'll just have to see how he grows up. Either way, he's cute as heck and we'll have some fun with him.


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## Dwarf (Jun 26, 2014)

I agree, he could be either at this stage. Please keep us updated with photos! He sure is a cutie <3


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Baby coats always trick me, and the second two photos are a bit blown out on the white balance so it's hard to tell. Based on the "cooler" description I think he may be grulla. 
No matter what, he is adorable, please keep us updated with photos!


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

JAultman said:


> What would be the key differences between dunskin (dun buckskin, yes?) and grullo/a?
> It really doesn't matter much since we can't register him or anything. It's just that I have this thing where I don't want to call him grulla unless he truly is that.


The key difference would be the dunskin carries a cream gene and the grullo would not. My guess at the baby's color would be dunskin. As both parents each carry one creme gene, he had a pretty decent shot of getting it from one of them.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Grullo colt:









Grulla filly:









Obviously, one of the parents of your foal carries dun and it isn't showing very loudly, as dun doesn't hide or skip a generation. If one copy is present, it will express (it's a simple dominant). So, either the dam is really a dunskin (not likely, from the pics provided), or the sire was a dunalino (dun+palomino), or sire wasn't who they think it was.


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

I'd say grullo for your colt because of his dark face and overall tone of coat. Cute little fella!


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## Dwarf (Jun 26, 2014)

LoriF said:


> The key difference would be the dunskin carries a cream gene and the grullo would not. My guess at the baby's color would be dunskin. As both parents each carry one creme gene, he had a pretty decent shot of getting it from one of them.


The other main difference though is the base coat, a Dunskin is a bay horse with both a cream and dun gene (Buckskin plus dun), while a Grullo/Grulla is a black horse with a dun gene.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Dwarf said:


> The other main difference though is the base coat, a Dunskin is a bay horse with both a cream and dun gene (Buckskin plus dun), while a Grullo/Grulla is a black horse with a dun gene.


I thought of that but was thinking it would be easy to distinguish between a bay dun and a grulla


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## piglet (Oct 2, 2012)

Please keep posting pictures as he grows!!!


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## peppersonlygirl (Jan 21, 2014)

I'm curious what he looks like now OP? 

My colt is supposedly a homozygous black dunskin. I really want to call him grullo when people ask me but as far as my research goes, grullo/grulla mane and tails are supposed to be black, no frosting or lighter guard tail hairs.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^That's a new one.

What colors are his parents?

Sounds like some genetic testing has been done to determine he's homozygous so simply test agouti and (if you want) cream. What does "supposedly" mean? He's either grullo or he's not, if he's dunskin he's not grullo.

I'd be surprised if your boy has cream, dunskins are usually very light due to having two dilution genes.


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## peppersonlygirl (Jan 21, 2014)

Supposedly because that's what the breeder says. His dam is a smutty buckskin and sire is a dunskin.


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## Drifting (Oct 26, 2011)

peppersonlygirl said:


> I'm curious what he looks like now OP?
> 
> My colt is supposedly a homozygous black dunskin. I really want to call him grullo when people ask me but as far as my research goes, grullo/grulla mane and tails are supposed to be black, no frosting or lighter guard tail hairs.


So, black with dun and cream? That would just be a smokey black with dun. So a Smokey Grullo, since Grullo is black+dun.

I think it's highly possible the OPS foal could be smokey black+ dun so, smokey grullo.


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## peppersonlygirl (Jan 21, 2014)

Does it help to know that his grandsire (Dun It Quick) is a perlino?


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## Drifting (Oct 26, 2011)

The only thing that would answer your question is a color test. I'd test for cream. if you wanted to be sure he's black you can test for agouti. He is obviously dun, no need to test for that.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

peppersonlygirl said:


> Does it help to know that his grandsire (Dun It Quick) is a perlino?


Nope  That's redundant with his parents genetics.

According to the genetics (don't see the dorsal on dad but it can hide at that angle but he looks dunskin) and yes the mom definitely appears brownskin (brown not bay based (buckskin) but same thing practically.)

So dad is bay + cream + dun.

Mom is brown + cream.

Now he obviously has dun. He obviously does not have 2 cream genes but may have one. Bay/brown horses are tricky as they can hide recessive genes... he is obviously not red based but if black based could either show agouti (bay/brown) or not (black). Unfortunately with the dun and maybe cream the color is diluted enough to make it tricky esp in a foal. So could be black +/- cream (grullo/smokey grullo) or bay/brown +/- cream (brown or buckskin/dunskin)

Sooo....what that means is that the genetics as we can guess at them back up either option. It sounds like the breeder has a more in depth knowledge of the individual parents genetics then we do so I would go with what he/she said at least for now. If you do want to know for sure then you would test agouti and cream as I said above...I believe each test is $25.


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## peppersonlygirl (Jan 21, 2014)

Thanks for explaining! Yes, sire has a dorsal stripe. OK I'm starting to understand this color thing!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

My only thought is your foal has a very dark face mask which I would not expect on a double dilute, note how the dad has a face mask but it's very light.


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## peppersonlygirl (Jan 21, 2014)

Yes, his face is dark!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

They're all so cute! Love dad's face and little ears.

I'd love to see him when he's older his color is beautiful whatever it is, and the OPs guy too!


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## JAultman (Sep 19, 2014)

I haven't taken any pictures of just our colt in quite a while. Here are a few in which he shows up, but is not the centerpiece.

These two pics were in the end of July so he was 2 months old

















Here I was ponying him around, riding his mom. This was mid-October, 5 months old.









He kind of shed out his baby coat this summer and was a mousy tan/brown, which you can see on his rear end in the second picture, but now he's a fluff ball and more cream colored again. It will be interesting to see what he looks like next summer.


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## tho2322 (Oct 20, 2016)

JAultman said:


> Based on what I've found online, he looks like a Grulla to me. But I also read that many people mis-label horses as grulla when they're actually a dun buckskin, or something else. What do you think? Any experts? He has:
> solid black dorsal stripe
> light, cool tan color. "cool" as in not "warm". more gray-ish.
> black stockings
> ...


There's no question he is not a buckskin. But whether or not he's a different variety of dun or whether or not he is a TRUE grulla. I'll tell you what I know.
Dun is a gene that applies itself to another color.
There are "true" duns, buttermilk duns, red duns, grulla (black dun) and so on.

True duns are basically a dun gene over a horse that would just be bay if the dun gene wasn't present.
Red duns would be sorrel, and grullas would be a black horse.

Given that, do you know the genetics of your horse? Are there any duns/grullas in its recent lineage? Are there black horses AND duns? The only other way you will find out is through DNA testing, but looking at the family tree will give you an idea of what kind of genes are likely to be present in your foal. It looks like the dam is either dun or buckskin, but I can't tell by the picture provided. The foal could potentially be a smokey dun rather than a grulla if the horse would not normally be black without the dun gene.

Some horses even have "faux" dorsal stripes when they are counter shaded. I can tell you that your foal DOES have the dun gene without question. It isn't a buckskin. It has a dorsal stripe, but ALSO has zebra striping on its legs, and even a cross over the shoulders.

Honestly, I think this is a tough call. As the foal grows you'll see the coat change. Within a few months if this foal is truly a grulla, it will darken. And if it is not, it will lighten. I think that will be the best way to make the call unless of course you choose to use a DNA test. Because it is very easy to mislabel a grulla.

PHOTO #1: I had this gelding a few years ago who was mislabeled as a Grulla on his AQHA paperwork. I also got a coggins sheet labeling him as GREY when I purchased him. He did NOT have a dorsal stripe OR leg markings. But he did have cob webbing on his face and various places on his body as well has his shoulders. But he is definitely a smokey Buckskin.

PHOTO #2: This is my dun mare. She is actually a "true" dun because of her golden coloring, but is mistaken for buckskin quite A LOT. She was even sold to me as a buckskin. Her AQHA papers, however, do state that she is a dun.

PHOTO #3: This is my friend's mare. She is a Grulla and registered as one as well. You can see her dark, smokey, almost black color (as I said, if the dun gene was absent, she would simply be a black horse.) Your foal isn't quite this dark but could potentially become darker. Comparably in the third and forth pictures, I'd say the foal is closer to being a smokey dun rather than Grulla. But as I said, you'll have to wait it out to see how it changes or simply get a DNA test done.


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## tho2322 (Oct 20, 2016)

tho2322 said:


> There's no question he is not a buckskin. But whether or not he's a different variety of dun or whether or not he is a TRUE grulla. I'll tell you what I know.
> Dun is a gene that applies itself to another color.
> There are "true" duns, buttermilk duns, red duns, grulla (black dun) and so on.
> 
> ...


ADDITION:

Buttermilk duns and Grullas are very hard to tell apart. So here are two google reference pictures. Grullas may have a bit more dark hair scattered throughout their body whereas a buttermilk dun may be a few shades lighter. It looks like your foal is going to have a lot of smokey dark points, so this may make it even harder to tell which it is. 

Pic #1: Buttermilk dun - Has a bit of smokey mottling on the face, legs and shoulders like your foal. This may be most likely if the foal's dam is a buckskin (I thought she may be because of her light tan color and lack of visible leg stripes on her hind hock, but I did not see a full picture of her.) If the dam IS buckskin, I think then this foal is positively a buttermilk dun because a buckskin is essentially a BAY horse + the creme gene. That means that this foal will have received the CREME + DUN genes, which do result in the buttermilk dun color.

Pic #2: Grulla - Almost silvery/black color under the dun mixture.

Verdict: If the dam is buckskin I'm almost 100% positive this foal is Buttermilk dun without a DNA test. Which is a pretty awesome combo. If you decide to breed it one day it's going to throw a million different colors! XD


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

Look up smokey grulla and you'll see your baby looks VERY similar. At first glance I actually thought grulla, but as stated the last pictures don't look like it. 

My guess would definitely be smokey grulla.


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

I don't know what color it is... but I love it!!


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Would be interesting to test. My vote is for grulla.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

tho2322 said:


> There's no question he is not a buckskin. But whether or not he's a different variety of dun or whether or not he is a TRUE grulla. I'll tell you what I know.
> Dun is a gene that applies itself to another color.
> There are "true" duns, buttermilk duns, red duns, grulla (black dun) and so on.
> 
> ...


Smoky buckskin? There are many different descriptions for shades of buckskin but "smokey buckskin" is a new one. The picture you posted is of a brown based buckskin, or brownskin. A seal brown horse with 1 copy of cream dilution. When the term "smokey" is used in horse colors it is to refer to a cream dilution. Like a smoky black is a black horse with 1 cream gene (a single cream doesn't dilute black pigment so it looks just like any other black horse but may fade worse). Smoky cream is a homozygous cream on an otherwise black horse, tends to look very similar to perlinos and sometimes even looks like a cremello. 

The color choices that the foal is most likely to be are grullo and smoky grullo, maybe dunskin (bay based with both dun and cream dilutions, what you called "buttermilk dun"). Dunskins don't normally have such dark face masks, that is more common on the grullos and smoky grullos. Testing the foal for cream would tell whether the foal had cream in addition to the dun, an agouti test would tell if the foal was black based or bay based.


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