# western critique??



## amberly (Dec 16, 2012)

I noticed that when you were loping, your hands were moving a lot. Try to keep them in place when you lope and trot, like you would at a walk. You are doing pretty good from what I can tell. It's OK not to have lessons, sometimes figuring things out on your own is the best way. I don't take lessons and I never have, but I like it that way! There are many ways of doing things and sometimes the person teaching you will tell you to do it one way when your way may also be right!! haha!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

True, you don't have to have lessons to enjoy horse riding. But if you want to change your way of riding, and if it's getting you bucked off, you might want to look at some changes, then lessons really help. 

In lieu of that, here's my two cents :

This picture shows that you have a lot of stiffness in your body and are pretty locked up at your knee and hip. in this photo the horse's "pogo stick" type up and down motion is popping you out of the saddle because you are too stiff;




The horse is stiff and is hollowing her back (his?), and this does make it hard for the rider to have a solid seat, but if you are stiff, it makes you bop up and down, which irritates the horse , which makes them hollow out even more. Vicious circle. Unfortunately, YOU have to be the one to start the change. you have to get looser in your knee and hip and start sitting down more in the saddle and moving more with the horse. All hard things to teach over the internet.

I'd work a lot more at the walk, becuase you can get your seat into that loose, following position much better, get your horse to start being more confident in you as her rider, and start to encourage her to slow down, stretch her head down, and kind of "uncoil". She looks like she's all tight and coiled up, back tight, head up and when you take a horse that's tight like and ask for a canter, it's not so surprising you'd get a buck. If you had a softer, looser seat, you proabably could have ridden through that buck, but I shouldnt' critisize you there because I've been unseated plenty.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'll try a few comments...

1 - Slack in the reins, or try bitless for a while. I'm guessing your hands are bothering your horse's mouth. English riders ride with contact, but that takes some training and time to do well. A more typical western approach is what my daughter & I are doing in this picture:










This was earlier in my riding, but notice the combination of bitless and slack. 










Trooper knew how to neck rein. If your horse doesn't, then it can still work. When it is time to go left, extend your left hand away from the horse and offer for him to go left, then tighten slightly to tip his nose if needed. There are also YouTube videos on teaching neck reining.

2 - A relaxed leg can cover a multitude of sins! Tension in your leg tends to lift you off of the saddle and create pivot points that throw you off balance. I have tight hips, and spent the first 4 years or so having to make a conscious effort to spread my knees apart. Particularly if I got nervous - Mia used to do a lot of bolting, and I'd squeeze with my knees and make it worse.

3 - Sing. When I'm feeling tense, I sing Jimmy Buffet songs. The horse won't care if you are off key. Singing helps loosen you up.

I fully understand not having money for lessons. Some of the local teachers around here are OK with giving a set of 4 lessons total, to help you get off to a good start. That would run around $120 here, but it is a lot cheaper than even one trip to the hospital. That was how we started my daughter-in-law. Four lessons gave her enough of the basics to be able to handle a surprising amount of stuff.

Also: some good books. Used from Amazon, they are cheap enough. My favorites are:

Common sense horsemanship

Hunter seat equitation

How your horse wants you to ride

None is about riding western, but so what? I like them.

This is by far my favorite video on riding western:






Good luck!


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## ilovepets (Oct 29, 2012)

thanks for the advice  
amberly~ i will try to work on my hands more. right now i am trying to concentrate on how the canter feels (rhythm). i just learned how to do it off a luge line and so i was focusing on transitions and keeping her in a circle  now i can focus on my hands and loosening up

tinyliny~ i got bucked because the horse was being a brat, she does that sometimes. she was also prancing a lot too. she stops when she gets tired out. the field is right in back of the barn and well.. she also wants to go back which also leads to her side stepping- a problem even her owner, an experienced rider who has had horses all her life, cant fix.

bsms~ she does neck reign a little but not enough that i would call it neck rein. i do though have loose or very loose reins on trail rides, where she is at her best. if i loosened the reins in the field, she wold go toward the barn as said above. thais is why i keep them a little tight. me and my friend used to ride bareback and with halters and lead ropes in the pen, but we stopped after her horse bucket her off. and in the field, with a bit, i really need to pull her away from the barn direction sometimes, and i think that would be much harder with a halter
i will work on loosening up though


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I also noticed that you are very stiff, especially when asking for and riding the canter. One thing you might try (it worked for me) is to open up your hips, let your knees angle out a bit, and completely relax your entire lower body. Focus on riding her rhythm with nothing more than your core; your abdomen and lower back. Of course, start that at the walk and then work your way up to the trot and finally the lope. It takes a long time to break bad habits you develop in riding (believe me, I know :wink.

It looks like you're trying to brace with your legs to absorb her motion, putting too much weight on your feet. Have you done any no-stirrup work? If not, that might be a really good place to start. One thing I figured out the hard way is that if you keep most of your weight on your feet and you brace your knees, then you're going to get dumped every time they crow hop because your center of gravity is down around your knees...making you top-heavy and easy to topple. However, if you learn to keep your weight in your seat instead, then that's where your center of gravity is and makes things a lot easier to ride out.

Along with that, your upper body is tense, which isn't allowing you the fluidity you need in your shoulders and arms. It would be better if you could work on a loose rein to develop the feel you need, but that can be difficult when the _horse_ won't work well like that.

I don't know if something like this would be practical for you, but you might try riding her the way I ride my colts. Don't worry about a perfect circle and don't worry about rate. What I do is I leave the outside rein completely slack, ride with the inside hand only, and keep the inside rein shorter (but still some slack) so that when I pick up my hand, it turns them into a tighter circle. That is how I manage their speed; when they speed up, I'll tighten them down to smaller circles, when they slow down, I let them spiral back out to the bigger one.

One last thing, and I'm not certain as it may be her markings throwing me off, but she looks like she might be lacking muscle in her hind end and, if that's the case, she is likely lacking in her back too. How sure are you that your tack fits her well?

All in all, you look pretty darn good considering and don't get discouraged. I think all of us having problems in our riding that we are working to fix (heaven knows I do LOL), regardless of how long you've been riding.


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## ilovepets (Oct 29, 2012)

i will definitely try no stirrups and loosening my lower body more.

her tack fits well, they are just trying to put some weight on her. she's not like unhealthy skinny or 'riby', she just needs some weight.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think Smrobs said what I was trying to say, but much better.

your center of gravity won't change due to pinching with your knees, however. the center of gravity has to do with your height and your mass/weight, so it won't change if you grip or don't. But, by gripping, you create a sort of pivot point. ,and it makes the upper body swing forward or backward with sudden motion from that pivot point (like the long lash of a whip). the farther that pivot point is from the upper body, the more forcefully you will be chucked forward if the horse props or dodges. so, you are more stable if you have your balance point be your seat, verses your knees or feet, 'cause it's closer to your upper body. 

by relaxing and allowing yourself to ride from your seat, and your thing, you kind of lessen the whole pivot point action, too, and be more "as one" with your horse.


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## ilovepets (Oct 29, 2012)

so i shouldn't grip with my knees?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

No. You do not grip with your knees. 

For someone that hasn't had lessons, you really aren't all that bad. You look more like an English rider in western tack at the moment but you are riding an unbalanced horse so for the most part... You are not doing to shabby.

I would work on sitting with more weight on your pockets if you will. You still want to sit up straight with your shoulders back but you want to open your pelvis and allow yourself to really sink into the saddle. Put your weight in the heels. Don't pull your toes up when you push your ankles down, just let the weight drop your ankles.

Hold on with your inner thigh and your calves, not your knee. Right now with your horse being a little on the hyper brat side, I'd be careful not to loosen your reins too much but lighten your hands. Don't pull so much with them, do your steering with your legs.

I love appies by the way and yours is a doll. You look great. Keep up the good work.


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## ilovepets (Oct 29, 2012)

yeah i have noticed personally my habit of putting to muck weight in my stirrups and not my pockets. i have actually ridden english on this horse and another horse and i dont like it :O its just not me, i am more comfy in western and for some reason english stirrups, the war my foot is, triggers my foot to do a super tense up sending me into pain!






i like appys too  its actually my friends moms horse but she said its "mine" and she just pays for it and takes care of it. i ride more than she does now (which i think she should ride more often than she does to keep her with an experienced rider)


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Western is very seat, seat bone oriented. Very single picture, every one of you, even BSMS's, are not using them that much, no deep seats and no strong calves, something to work on. All of you need to relax your shoulders and chests out more, except the girl in BSMS's pic, she needs to take the hollow out her back with a better seat & leg position. Nothing horribly wrong, just things to remember.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^^ The girl is my youngest. I have enough trouble getting her to put her feet in the stirrups, let alone worry about anything else...what does Dad know?


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I wouldn't worry about it, hard to correct stuff like that on your own, as long as you are in control of the horse & enjoying your ride, who cares?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I just glad my youngest still wants to go riding with me! I keep waiting to find out I'm no longer cool enough (or whatever the term is now) to be an acceptable trail riding companion...


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Nah, I have a feeling dear old dad will always be the cool guy to go riding with.


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## barrelbeginner (Jan 31, 2012)

Gah,^ I wish my dad would ride with more. Or be the least bit invovled with his daughters horse dreams. Or even trail riding..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Be careful what you wish for....


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## ilovepets (Oct 29, 2012)

so, my current riding is not wrong, i just need to loosen up some??


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

That's right, Ilovepets. While it may not be technically "proper" in the horsemanship sense of the word, it isn't wrong. In riding, especially western riding, there is so much leeway in regards to what is right and what is wrong and what's right for one person may be wrong for another.

From what I see, you ride well. You're only faults are your tension and lack of experience (mostly seen in your hands). These are things that, while difficult to break the habit of doing, aren't really so difficult to learn how to correct them.

Just to show that it is possible to learn, I used to have the same habit as you, too much tension in my lower body and too much bracing with my legs. As a child and younger teenager, I found it difficult to smoothly sit a trot/lope on a horse that traveled a bit rough. Once I had my problem pointed out, I learned to keep my legs down and in where they are more useful.

Now, keep in mind that I am not trying to show "proper" position because God knows I don't have that LOL, but just a more effective working position that allows me to be more fluid and a more efficient rider.

This one is from a few years ago, when I was still really battling my leg problem.









And here are some more recent pictures. If you look closely at my legs, you can see that they are relaxed but still staying near the sides of the horse...not bracing forward or out. Also, you'll notice that my seat stays down in the saddle, even at the moments in the motion where the motion wants to move you up out of the saddle.



























Soon enough, you'll be able to ride just about anything and make it look good LOL. This mare had the most God-awful lope I've ever ridden. The only motion to it was a relentless, jarring, pogo motion (all 4 feet would leave the ground and land at almost the exact same moment).


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This picture:










Makes me thing of Pepe Le Pew:


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

That's just about how she traveled too, that's why I chose that picture LOL. :wink:


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

People have pretty much covered what I was going to say....there's a lot to work on. I will say though.....ditch that crop! This horse definitely has a motor and you DO NOT need that crop.


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## ilovepets (Oct 29, 2012)

GotaDunQH said:


> People have pretty much covered what I was going to say....there's a lot to work on. I will say though.....ditch that crop! This horse definitely has a motor and you DO NOT need that crop.


i dont alway use it but i do always have it. once we to a few circles of cantering and lots of trotting, she does need for.... motivation...


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

ilovepets said:


> i dont alway use it but i do always have it. once we to a few circles of cantering and lots of trotting, she does need for.... motivation...


 
Your legs need to be your motivation....period....especially western. DITCH THE CROP! That buck she gave you was because you USED the crop instead of your legs to ask her to transition. Sorry, but if you truly want to ride western...what I saw in the vids is not the way to start.


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## ilovepets (Oct 29, 2012)

ok, ok i will admit i used to much crop when she bucked, but what you dont see is that she was also prancing instead of walking before the video (meaning for her that she has energy and she IS got to try stuff like that) i trot her when she is "ready" to canter and she cuts all the testing and relaxes, but some times she will do things like that even when she has calmed down. what you dont see is that when she is tired she will not respond to kicking all the time, if you tap her with the crop at that point she does listen. just because you ride western doesnt mean you cant use a crop :/


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I don't think a lack of go is the problem here. I captured the picture below, and will delete it in a couple of weeks, but here is where I suspect the problem with the 'go' is:








​ 
There is enough stiffness in the leg and back that you cannot move with your horse. A chair seat can work, but only if you flex a bunch with the lower back and hip. If you brace at all, then that position results in you hammering the horse's loins. And the horse responds by saying, "Why should I shift gears if I'm going to get punished for it?" At least, that is how my horses respond...don't ask me how I know!

The second problem is your reins are saying slow, so what is it you really want him to do - go slower, or faster? You can loosen the reins and still steer with them. It might be tight on one side, but tight on both sides tells most horses to slow down. It doesn't seem fair to use a crop on a horse when you are already pulling on the reins.

I got the same impression from the "Posting at the trot in English" video. If I wanted Mia to throw me, that would be a good combo - ask her to go faster while keeping tension in the reins. And if I used a crop (I actually use a leather rein strap on the very rare times Mia has a broken 'go-er'...usually it is her 'whoa-er' that is broke)...she'd buck, and buck hard.

Might be good to work on turns and stops and transitions and balance at a walk and trot. I think your horse has too much food on the plate to digest it all well.

Just my thoughts. I'm a nobody rider, so just FWIW...


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

You call it prancing...I call it jigging...and it's annoying. I have a mare who was terrible when I first got her (she came with a lot of issues). If I held onto her it only made it worse. If she got tense, I got tense, and she got tenser. We ended up doing a lot of serpintines and circles and I had to learn to relax...shoulders, arms, back, legs. And we walked, walked, walked. I cannot tell you how much I learned from educating myself so I could educate my horse. Sitting down in the saddle and relaxing certainly helped.
End of what I have to say. You have some very good advice here from those who know what they are talking about. : )


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## ilovehorsesand ponys (Oct 25, 2012)

GotaDunQH said:


> Your legs need to be your motivation....period....especially western. DITCH THE CROP! Sorry, but if you truly want to ride western...


Its not wrong to use a crop in western, its not _just_for English.. so I guess since spurs are a western cowboy thing you cant use them in English... -__-


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

ilovehorsesand ponys said:


> Its not wrong to use a crop in western, its not _just_for English.. so I guess since spurs are a western cowboy thing you cant use them in English... -__-


Properly used spurs can be used in any discipline. What is being said about the crop is that if you use your leg properly, you won't need it. The crop is what I call a handicap.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

farmpony84 said:


> Properly used spurs can be used in any discipline. What is being said about the crop is that if you use your leg
> 
> properly, you won't need it. The crop is what I call a handicap.


Exactly! Spurs are for refinement of cues....crops are not. A comparison of the two can not be used. I call the crop a crutch. That's what your legs are for....


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## ilovepets (Oct 29, 2012)

Yes but just because the horse is western doesn't mean that it will always go with kicking. Some horses do need crops to keep them going and that is what this horse needs. I also need to keep the reins snug to keep her going where I want her to go, if I made one looser she would get out of line, and try to go home. Not all westerns neck rein. On the trails I have loose reins but when doing ring work I have to keep her going in the way I want her to, if I don't have then snug she will not listen. They aren't tight, they are just enought so she know I am 'there'. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Keeping reins tight and asking for more speed are kind of confusing to most western horses. There are other ways to teach a horse not to constantly try to go home. If it is causing that much of a problem, then work on one thing at a time - such as, "Today we will only head for home when I say we head for home. And every time you try to go home without permission, we will trot tight circles or do back-ups, or face away from home and stop and stand still."

If you are fighting over riding or going home, then the horse isn't ready for a lesson in much besides "We go home when *I* want to go home". You might need to work up to training how to canter properly.

What I think you are doing right now - and I'm a nobody as a rider - is learning bad habits by trying to get more from your horse than your horse is ready to give. Many of the things I'm trying to learn as a rider now involve unlearning the defensive habits I built while riding a spooky, almost untrained Arabian mare as a brand-new, completely green rider who believed the advertisement ("perfect for a beginner").

I personally have no objection to carrying a crop. The lady I took western lessons from handed out a crop automatically with one particular horse. I still ride with an 8 foot leather rein folded over, looped on the horn and hanging from my saddle. In fairness to Mia, it gets used about every 3-4 months...getting Mia to go faster is usually NOT a problem!








​ 
But FWIW - if I rode Mia with the reins like that, I'd be asking for trouble. One of my lessons from the last year of riding is that it is better for me to give Mia some freedom, and bring her to a complete stop if she acts stupid, than it is to keep my hands in her mouth and try to direct her all the time. If I can't trust her to stop when I say stop, then that becomes lesson number one for as long as it takes! If we are trail riding, we can stop 25 times on the way home. One thing I tried that worked well with Mia was saying, "We can walk to the house, or trot away from the house. You choose the speed, and Ill choose the direction."

That is part of why we've moved to a curb bit - my approach to riding involves slack reins, but when I say whoa, I *mean* whoa! And by working on stops, perfect stops, stops from any gait with legs squared up and no fidgeting at the end, I'm finding I can offer her more freedom and independence at other times, and she responds by acting more relaxed and willing the entire ride.

Maybe that doesn't apply to you. We always tend to share with others what we are learning NOW on THIS horse, and it doesn't always apply to others. Oh well. I can offer good intentions with my advice, but you will have to decide how you want to proceed. But as a riding critique, I'll offer an opinion that what you are trying now isn't working the way I think you need. :wink:


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

ilovepets said:


> Yes but just because the horse is western doesn't mean that it will always go with kicking. Some horses do need crops to keep them going and that is what this horse needs. I also need to keep the reins snug to keep her going where I want her to go, if I made one looser she would get out of line, and try to go home. Not all westerns neck rein. On the trails I have loose reins but when doing ring work I have to keep her going in the way I want her to, if I don't have then snug she will not listen. They aren't tight, they are just enought so she know I am 'there'.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't kick my horse either to get him to go and I wear spurs but I don't use those either to get him to go. 

Everything you have posted have been about the horse, but there is a well known comment in the horse world...."99% of the time, it's rider error". People are quick to blame the horse when it's the rider that is the problem. And yes, your reins are tight with a VERY fixed hand and that is causing the mare frustration. Whatever problem she is exhibiting starts with what YOU are doing.


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## ilovehorsesand ponys (Oct 25, 2012)

GotaDunQH said:


> Exactly! Spurs are for refinement of cues


Exactly, so they listen to your cues better. Crops are also so they listen to you. Spurs can make them go and so can't crops
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

ilovehorsesand ponys said:


> Exactly, so they listen to your cues better. Crops are also so they listen to you. Spurs can make them go and so can't crops
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are confusing "cues" and "listening"....they aren't the same.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Overall, for never taking a lesson, you aren't doing too bad.

However, there are ALWAYS things we can improve on as riders. ALWAYS. 

And you can either be _that_ person on the trail ride who clearly doesn't know anything and does not want to learn .... or you can be the better rider who is open to learning and *improving*.

I agree with the others about your stiffness in the legs and body. 

And I agree that you are being very confusing to your horse. Watching the video, you almost NEVER take the pressure off the reins. As a result, your horse is throwing her head, sticking out her nose, and is very stiff. And she's getting frustrated with YOU. You won't give her any relief from the rein pressure, and she's expressing her discontent. 

If you won't go get lessons to teach this horse how to be SOFT in the bridle and give to the bit, then at least try to watch a few of these. These are not the best videos in the world, but the ones I could find with a quick YouTube search. 











These 3 by Ken McNabb are excellent (I think). He goes through many different types of bits and explains what each one does. But pay close attention to how SOFT his horses are in the face. This is what you should try to work toward with your horse.

















Remember: When doing things with the bit (or anything in general), the very instant you horse "gives" to the pressure, you MUST release immediately. That's the horse's reward for doing something correct. And that's what makes (and keeps) a horse soft.

So work on releasing those reins more when your horse responds softly to your hands. Right now, she's getting upset with you and your constant "nagging".




> i got bucked because the horse was being a brat, she does that sometimes.


Actually, you got bucked because YOU were frustrating her and annoying her and confusing her with your conflicting body and hand signals. You weren't rewarding her for anything she was doing right, so she had to do the only thing she could do = buck.



> she was also prancing a lot too. she stops when she gets tired out.


She shouldn't be making the decisions (ie stopping when she is tired). YOU should be making the decisions. Don't allow her to get away with it. 



> the field is right in back of the barn and well.. she also wants to go back which also leads to her side stepping- a problem even her owner, an experienced rider who has had horses all her life, cant fix.


I'm a no-name horse person. I'm not a professional trainer, and I don't claim to be. But I bet I could "cure" her of wanting to go back to the barn and side stepping because of it. It's all about consistency, and being FIRM. 

As I kinda eluded to above, it does not mean anything for how many years you've been involved with horses to make you "experience". What matters, is what you have DONE in those years to LEARN and make yourself a better rider. I do not mean to put-down your friend in anyway, but just because she's had horses her entire life does not mean she knows how to correctly deal with them. 

Like I say: There's those who stay stuck in their ways. And then there are those who are always changing, learning, asking, and improving. 



> if i loosened the reins in the field, she wold go toward the barn as said above. thais is why i keep them a little tight.


Don't keep them tight to prevent her from making a mistake. Let your horse make a mistake!! That is how they learn --> when the rider corrects them. 

Let her start to drift toward the barn. Then give her a good outside leg kick to move her butt back over to where you asked her to go in the first place. Go ahead and make a circle near the barn over and over and over again. Every time she tries to drift, correct her. Eventually, she'll get the hint that she ain't going back to the barn until you say so. 



> me and my friend used to ride bareback and with halters and lead ropes in the pen, but we stopped after her horse bucket her off.


...... Just curious .... is this the same "experienced" friend you spoke of earlier?



> ok, ok i will admit i used to much crop when she bucked, but what you dont see is that she was also prancing instead of walking before the video (meaning for her that she has energy and she IS got to try stuff like that) i trot her when she is "ready" to canter and she cuts all the testing and relaxes, but some times she will do things like that even when she has calmed down. what you dont see is that when she is tired she will not respond to kicking all the time, if you tap her with the crop at that point she does listen. just because you ride western doesnt mean you cant use a crop :/


I do believe that crops have their place in riding. However, in this particular case, I myself would NOT use a crop. I feel that if I can't get my horse to MOVE with my body, then I shouldn't be on the horse. That's my opinion. Because .... if she ignores your legs now when she is tired, what are you going to do when she starts to ignore the crop too?



> Some horses do need crops to keep them going and that is what this horse needs.


In my opinion, this horse needs a better rider -- not a crop. I do not mean that to come off as harsh or rude (kudos for you to come on here and ask for advice!!  ) but I think if you try to fix these rider issues we are pointing out, you will find your horse will start listening better if she's not confused and frustrated with your riding.



> *I also need to keep the reins snug to keep her going where I want her to go*, if I made one looser she would get out of line, and try to go home.


Can you re-read the section I bolded? Does it make sense to you to be *pulling* on the reins when you are asking your horse to *go forward*?

No, it does not make sense to have pressure on the reins when you are asking your horse to go forward. Again, hence why your horse gets "****y" and is frustrated with you. 

Again, go ahead and let your reins loose and LET her make a mistake. Then correct her. She'll probably try again right after that. That's okay. Correct her again. Patience and consistency are key. 




> Not all westerns neck rein.


True, not all horses neck rein, but this goes back to the same idea I've been talking about. Do you want to stay stuck in your current way of riding? Or do you want to grow and improve?

If you want to grow and improve, neck reining is an advanced manavaur that your horse should know, because you've taught her. 



> On the trails I have loose reins but when doing ring work I have to keep her going in the way I want her to, if I don't have then snug she will not listen. They aren't tight, they are just enought so she know I am 'there'.


YOU being on her back should be all she needs to know. :wink: Your weight/body cues should always come BEFORE a rein cue. The reins are just a "back up".


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## ilovepets (Oct 29, 2012)

can someone hear me out??

first off, because i know this horse and you don't (no offense) i feel like i am being ambushed on here about how its ALL my fault  but my question to you guys is: has anyone ever ridden a horse that isnt perfect? a horse that tests you because thats who they are, not because i am doing something wrong. i feel like a lot of people are going off of their image of a perfect reining horse or stereotypes of western horses that can have loose reins and neck rein, and dont need a crop or spurs to go and dont gravitate towards the barn. not ALL westerns are like that. all horses are different!!! some horses can neck rein but need tight reins or else they will not listen. this horse is a trail horse and while her horse buddy is gone for a few months and i cant trail ride, i have been using this time to PRACTICE cantering and working in the field. yes i know and accept and will work on my stiffness and will work toward my goal of becoming looser in the canter. but no i will not ride with out a crop or with loose reins- that is just asking for her to buck, test and/or run back to the barn. must i say again- every horse is different. she is great on the trails and i keep loose reins (when walking but shorten them a little when trotting) and i barely use the crop, if at all. and for future posts- i am not frustrating her!!! she does this with everyone- even a trainer!!!


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

It appears you don't want to listen to the excellent advice on here. So, I'm wondering why you came to ask questions, if you are just going to shoot down what people with much more experience have been telling you.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

OP just ride your horse and enjoy it, and don't ask for critiques. As long as you can control your horse, what's the problem?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If you ask for a critique, you have to anticipate some criticism. And all we know is what we see in your videos and pictures. If you feel you need to work the reins like that to control the horse, then the horse isn't what I would call broke to ride. I spent over 2 years riding Mia, experiencing bolts and sometimes needing to jump off of her because she was too worked up (afraid) to stop. Then I hired a trainer, who concluded the stubborn mare who was testing me had never been broken to ride, and thus was actually a very sweet and giving mare, who would give me all she had - and act up when she didn't have any more to give. And over the last 18 months, that has been proven over and over again.

If you can relax the reins on the trail, but not the arena, then you have a horse who needs training to work in an open field or arena. Our BLM mustang Cowboy is like that. On the trail, he is our most level-headed horse. In an arena, he gets scared. I don't have time to train it out of him, so he is a trail horse only around here.

That isn't wrong. But if I did want to ride him in the arena, I'd need to plan on training him to do it right. While this was Cowboy's first day with us, you can get an idea of how he still feels about the arena in this picture:








​ 
On a trail ride with the 'big' horses, this is Cowboy - ridden by my wife, who rides 3-4 times a year:








​ 
Since I don't have time to train him to be calm in the arena, he is our trail-only horse. And he will stay trail-only, until I have time to work with him. And I wish Mia had 1/10th his good sense on the trail...

If your horse is happy on the trails, but needs a fierce grip on the reins elsewhere, then perhaps he is best as a trail horse until you have time to train him otherwise...


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Op, I have rode imperfect horses my whole life. I know how it is dealing with a difficult horse... I mean.. read any of my threads about squiggy!! You are getting a lot of sound advice over and over. Just relax and enjoy the horse. Worry about the rest when it matters.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

This is frustrating both ways. You tell us how you have to ride the way you do because it's the only way to control your horse, and a number of people have tried telling you that what you are doing is most likely the problem.
This is sort of a no-win situation all the way around, especially for the horse.
I hope you will eventually find a solution and some answers you can accept. Until then you have the trails where you and the horse can relax and enjoy what you are doing. It's a very nice way to spend a day.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

ilovepets said:


> can someone hear me out??
> 
> first off, because i know this horse and you don't (no offense) i feel like i am being ambushed on here about how its ALL my fault  but my question to you guys is: has anyone ever ridden a horse that isnt perfect? a horse that tests you because thats who they are, not because i am doing something wrong. i feel like a lot of people are going off of their image of a perfect reining horse or stereotypes of western horses that can have loose reins and neck rein, and dont need a crop or spurs to go and dont gravitate towards the barn. not ALL westerns are like that. all horses are different!!! some horses can neck rein but need tight reins or else they will not listen. this horse is a trail horse and while her horse buddy is gone for a few months and i cant trail ride, i have been using this time to PRACTICE cantering and working in the field. yes i know and accept and will work on my stiffness and will work toward my goal of becoming looser in the canter. but no i will not ride with out a crop or with loose reins- that is just asking for her to buck, test and/or run back to the barn. must i say again- every horse is different. she is great on the trails and i keep loose reins (when walking but shorten them a little when trotting) and i barely use the crop, if at all. and for future posts- i am not frustrating her!!! she does this with everyone- even a trainer!!!


No need to feel ambushed. You bravely came on here and asked for a critique (as I said before, that's an excellent step for increasing your equine knowledge). But, we aren't going to sugarcoat things, or pamper people. We'll be honest and we'll tell you what we see. It doesn't mean you are a horrible, horrible person -- not at all! But there _are_ things you can improve on in your riding, and we've stated those things (as you came on here asking). As I said before, I'm not a professional trainer and I'm not the best rider on earth .... but I do know a thing or two about it, as do many other folks on this board. And I know what I would do if I were riding your horse, based on what it shows in the video, although there often are two ways to get from point A to point B and you'll hear that via different opinions.

Who said their horse is perfect? No horse is perfect. They all have flaws.

But every horse has been trained to act a certain way, because of what *THE RIDER* does to correct them when they drift toward the barn, or by allowing them the freedom of a loose rein (and correct them when they get out of line), or when they choose to buck, etc etc. 
This would be a good thread for you to check out
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/every-rider-trainer-every-time-you-85012/

My current horse Red (who I purchased last year in May) bucked twice when I first brought him home. _And he has not bucked since._ Because he learned the consequences of what happens when he bucks with me. (And I didn't need a crop or tight reins to get my point across). Horses are very smart and they learn to understand how to behave, once they know what you are asking and once they know what the "rules" are. It is the rider's responsibility to consistently show them those boundaries. And, if they stay in those boundaries, what a pleasure and joy it can be to go out on a trail ride!

Another example with my current horse Red. When I bought him, they rode him in a tie down and a twisted wire snaffle bit. :? He was already very resistant to the bit and not soft at all. I imagine they also rode him in a tight rein, because he would just want to speed up like crazy when I gave him slack, and toss his head like crazy when I did give him contact. I did my best with him last summer (lots, and lots, and lots of correcting him with a loose rein and lots of time in the saddle) but didn't get to where I wanted to be with him. So he's with a reining trainer this month for 30 days. I'm not ashamed to seek help when I need it. I went and took a lesson two days ago, and he's coming along great, and the trainer showed me things I can do to keep him soft. I will continue to take a few more lessons with her, before I bring him home and continue on myself. 

What you are explaining (when you say some horses can neck rein, and some horses need a tight rein) is the difference between a horse who has been trained well, and a horse who has not. 

Your horse has not. But it is not a bad thing, because everyone has to start somewhere. But by giving your horse the opportunity to have a loose rein now, is what you need to do if you ever want to progress to have a horse that neck reins. We're not saying your horse is going to neck rein this day, but we are trying to give you advice so that down the road, you'll have a much more willing companion who will neck rein nicely in the future. But you've got to start giving her slack now, or you'll never get there. 

Which as some people have said (and I have eluded to as well), is so what? So what if you direct rein your horse all your life, and ride on a tight rein all your life? There's lots of people that do that, and lots of people that enjoy their time in the saddle that way. But there's a way to do things, and a _correct_ way to do things. What you choose to do with it, are up to you. But you will find yourself surrounded by lots of folks on this board who want to do things the _correct_ way, and we've expressed our opinions to you, just like you asked. 

And I already said it earlier -- if your trainer doesn't know what to do with this horse, then you need to find a new trainer. 

And yes, you are frustrating your horse. Check out that picture that someone posted where you legs are braced forward, you are leaning back, pulling on her mouth, yet asking her to lope. This is 100% confusing to her. If a horse is confused, they are frustrated because they do not understand. Hence she bucks, pins her ears, and does everything to evade you possible.


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## ilovepets (Oct 29, 2012)

*takes a deep breath to relax*

it not really the criticism that is bothering me it was mostly the fact that people are telling me to get rid of the crop :-| i dont use it instead of kicking or because i like to use it with kicking, i use it because she needs it when she is starting to get tired out and wont respond to kicking to matter what. that is just how it is. i was watching someone taking a lesson on her with out a crop. about half way though the lesson, which was an hour long with a lot of trotting and cantering) she did get the crop because kicking wasnt enough. 

and the reins.. they are not tight!! they are just snug, i am not holding her back. and i am not going to train her to have loose reins because A. i am a beginner and B. she is not my horse.

saying that i feel like i have dug a deeper hole for myself on here. in life it is the little things that can drive me up a wall and critiquing those to things is what it is. it might be how i am reading it, but see that a lot of people are telling me to train her or loose the crop or loosen the reins, but i came on here looking for more about me, not training or crops or reins. :-(


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

ilovepets said:


> ...but see that a lot of people are telling me to train her or loose the crop or loosen the reins, but i came on here looking for more about me, not training or crops or reins. :-(


At a guess, I'd estimate 75% or more of critiques involve "training or crops or reins". If you add in movement with the horse, the figure would probably hit 95%. Apart from that, what DOES one comment on in a horse riding critique? 

Particularly when it seems like a lot of what is going on involves how the horse is being taught, using the theory that we are training a horse every time we ride (beau159 & I think alike!). For some odd reason, I'm beginning to understand why Cowboy, who has been a lesson horse, prefers trail riding with the other horses to doing anything in the arena. He probably considers being ridden by a beginner out tagging along with his corral mates heaven - no kicking, no crops, nothing but walking and jogging thru the desert with your pals, and then go home and eat!


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

ilovepets said:


> *takes a deep breath to relax*
> 
> but i came on here looking for more about me, not training or crops or reins. :-(


 
It is about you. Everything YOU do on the horse has a response by that horse. Everything YOU do is training.
That's all folks!


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

ilovepets said:


> *takes a deep breath to relax*
> 
> it not really the criticism that is bothering me it was mostly the fact that people are telling me to get rid of the crop :-| i dont use it instead of kicking or because i like to use it with kicking, i use it because she needs it when she is starting to get tired out and wont respond to kicking to matter what. that is just how it is. i was watching someone taking a lesson on her with out a crop. about half way though the lesson, which was an hour long with a lot of trotting and cantering) she did get the crop because kicking wasnt enough.
> 
> ...


But YOU are the pilot!!! How can we not give you an HONEST critique if we don't talk about what you are doing in the saddle and how the horse is reacting! This is the last time I will say it and you will just nay-say it anyway......GET RID OF THE CROP! Quite bluntly...you are ****ing this horse off to no end. If YOU did what you are supposed to do as the rider, you would not need the crop, this horse would not be bucking and all the rest. This horse needs serious training and you are truly out-horsed....and like Beau said, time for a new trainer. You aren't going to like everything I said...but this is a reality and horses are REAL business. The horse is not to blame....the rider is. If you want to get better, and I know that you do.....then heed the words that have been said here.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

ilovepets said:


> *takes a deep breath to relax*
> 
> it not really the criticism that is bothering me it was mostly the fact that people are telling me to get rid of the crop :-| i dont use it instead of kicking or because i like to use it with kicking, i use it because she needs it when she is starting to get tired out and wont respond to kicking to matter what. that is just how it is. i was watching someone taking a lesson on her with out a crop. about half way though the lesson, which was an hour long with a lot of trotting and cantering) she did get the crop because kicking wasnt enough.
> 
> ...


This horse is a LESSON horse ???

Are these lessons taught by the same trainer you speak of??

If so, I'm sorry, but you need to remove yourself from this barn and this trainer. Whoever she is, she has no business being a "trainer" and you are doing nothing but hurting yourself being around this. Good horsemen surround themselves with good horsemen. 

A lesson horse should be a well-trained horse so that any rider can learn positively how to do things correctly, and what it FEELS like to do it correctly. Good feel is such an important part of being a good rider. 

So your reins are "just snug"? So still: please tell me why it would be okay to have ANY pressure on the reins at all, when you for example are asking for a lope? And you do have more than snug pressure on the reins ... You posted a video; we can see that). You can't drive a car with one foot on the gas pedal, and the other on the break. You'll ruin your break pads (or in this case, ruin the horse). 

Pressure should only be applied when you are specifically asking a horse to do something, and should be released immediately (completely) when you get a correct response. They should not be held onto snug because the rider is not confident (which is the case here). This is why beginner riders should learn to ride on a nicely trainer horse so they learn balance, leg control, and soft hands in a correct fashion. 

Yes, you came on here for advice about you. We are giving it to you. But all you are doing is making up excuses because of the horse. Take responsibility. If you don't want to learn, that's fine. But don't ask for a critique and then tell US that we are wrong. (Because honey, we're not.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

I re-watched the "English" video you posted. If you've not totally shut us out yet, there's something I noticed in this video that hasn't been mentioned yet. 






Watch your horse's nose as you go around the circle. Do you see how her nose is pointing OUTWARD in the circle? That is a sure-sign of an unbalanced horse. She should have bend in her body to match your circle, that should extend from her nose all the way to her hip. Her nose should be bent inward to the circle, as should her hip. You need to use a combination of hands, seat, and legs to accomplish this. 

Yes, this is a barrel racing video, but it is an excellent example of how a horse should _bend their body_ to match the circle you are riding. (Start watching at about 1:20 because that's when she starts walking the horse.) You don't have to pay attention to what she's saying so much but watch her body and her hands. Do you see how she is directing the inside rein UP and OVER toward her opposite shoulder? That's how you ask a horse to soften up and bend.






Now yes, there is such a thing as doing a "counter bend" but that is an advanced maneuvar and shouldn't even be tried until you have a normal bend down perfectly. 

So to achieve a nice bend going to the right (clockwise circle): Keep slack in the left (outside) rein. Cue with your right (inside) rein. Your right (inside) leg should be in the middle of her belly, and your left (outside) leg should be slightly back toward her hip. So you are asking her to turn her nose inward, the ribcage should bend out, and the hip should bend in, creating a nice smooth bend in her body. 

Once she bends her nose in correctly, REMOVE the rein pressure completely (that means putting some slack in the rein, and not just leaving it "snug"). You've got to give her release, or she's going to quit trying and get frustrated. If she puts her nose in the wrong position again, that's okay. Apply inside rein pressure again, until she gives. Then release. If she makes a mistake immediately with her nose again, that's okay!! Apply pressure inside again, and ask her to give. And release when she does. This is a pressure/release method. She's going to make mistakes; especially in the beginning. You've just got to be consistent and correct her when needed (and release when she does something right). 

Remember to use those legs correctly too. And same idea with the legs. Use your outside leg to bump her hip in. When she has it IN, leave her alone. If she swings her hip out again, that's okay. Correct her with leg, then leave her alone when she gets it. 

Your end goal here (which may seriously take MONTHS) is for her to self-carry herself in the proper bend when making a circle, because YOU as the rider have shown her the correct way for her to carry herself. The key here is to be consistent with it and always do the same thing every time. Horses learn via consistency.

Plus, remember how you said way back in the beginning of your thread, that sometimes she speeds up and slows down at the trot or lope? Keeping her bending like this will eventually naturally control her speed, because as she develops the muscles necessary to hold her body in a balanced, bending fashion, her speed will naturally normalize and relax. You don't even need to "hold her back" with both reins; just ask her to bend. That will slow her down naturally.


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## MISSMELODY (Jan 31, 2013)

Classic rider ignorance and 'swolen head' .....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ilovepets (Oct 29, 2012)

this thread hasnt been active in a long time, i am not looking for critique or insults....


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