# Les Vogt got lucky on this one.



## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Les Vogt gets Body Slammed by Brazilian Horse on Vimeo

Seems to me he had this horse cranked in a bit too much ALL the time, but, that is just my opinion. Regardless, I guess the horse didn't want to roll back.

Les really got lucky. He is getting too "mature" for this. :wink:


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## Lockwood (Nov 8, 2011)

Yikes.
Good thing the footing was soft and deep.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Oh man... Not pretty at all. 

Didn't really like his comment. IMHO that was a combo of more rider error, part horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zeke (Jun 27, 2010)

FlyGap said:


> Didn't really like his comment. IMHO that was a combo of more rider error, part horse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Do you mean his comment that he doesn't like to ride strange horses at his clinics because of incidents like this? I think that decision seems pretty fair. Just because I horse is held in a bridle like that doesn't make him rear over backwards....it could've been an undisclosed problem. 

I do agree that he's in that horse's mouth too much and it probably wasn't helping the situation any.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

Are you kidding me? Did I watch the same video? No wonder the horse flipped on him, he was totally ripping on the horses mouth. Sorry, don't feel sorry for him, he did that to the horse and to himself. I am so sick of seeing riders ripping on horses mouths like that and then wondering why the horse reacted. Yikes!

He makes the turn, his left hand goes high, pulling the horse tight while his right hand gives a series of very very hard jerks to the horses mouth. I think in this case, he got his just reward.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

He was way too hard on that horses mouth and had it so far behind the bit most of the time I'm not surprised it panicked. 
Just because some horses are OK with that sort of riding doesn't mean they all are - and a rider with his level of experience should know that and should have been able to read the horse better


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

Not impresssed one bit. Of course this is only a 40 second clip. We don't know what transpired before this or how the horse was going before the video started but taken just as the 40 second clip I'm not impressed with the rider at all.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

He cranked that left rein straight to his hip then started ripping on the right rein at the same time. I'd flip my lid too if I had a guy yanking my head two directions at once


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

Based on that clip, 100% rider error. He trapped that horse and the horse found the only way out.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Yes. The fact that he blamed it on an unknown horse is ludricous.

You are right RC. The left rein was cranked back HARD and SHORT all the way to his hip. Then HAMMERING on the right rein all the way back to his right hip.

The horse couldn't go anywhere but over with this "technique".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

At least he is not shy to post for public viewing his mistakes.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

He is very lucky to have walked away from that relatively unscathed.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Honestly, I also wonder what bit he had, what the horses background was, amount of training (i.e. was it ready for the bit he may have had in its' mouth?…etc) He is, after all known for his bits also, and makes some wonderful ones. I just wonder if perhaps he put the wrong one on this horse, and then was way took harsh with it.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Even if he did choose the wrong bit, from the very start of the video you can see the horse is not able to work well with him. The dismount should have been intentional within about 15 seconds of that clip, or at the very least he should have slowed it down and reset the poor horse. He was in trouble from the start.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I saw him bump the horse's mouth, not a hard yank. The horse was resisting doing a turn back to the right and we all know that going to the right is often stiffer. The turnback to the left was brilliant.


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

franknbeans said:


> Honestly, I also wonder what bit he had, what the horses background was, amount of training (i.e. was it ready for the bit he may have had in its' mouth?…etc) He is, after all known for his bits also, and makes some wonderful ones. I just wonder if perhaps he put the wrong one on this horse, and then was way took harsh with it.


Thats kind of what I was alluding to. All we know about the whole deal is that 40 seconds. It was a bad 40 seconds and a complete train wreck but we don't know how we got to that point. 

I like Les vogt bits. i have one and you can see it in my avatar. However i wouldn't throw it in a greenes mouth and expect great results. My guy is being ridden in the two rein with it and at the pace I'm going he may be in the two rein for several years. Les probably didn't have that luxury in this clinic. Still not an excuse for what happened.


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## ReiningCrazy (Jan 20, 2012)

Anyone else wondering how much leg/spur he was using when he was jerking in the right rein? On my iPad I was trying to slow it down and it seemed like the toes on his right foot went down which mean the heel/spur was being used. It looks like he was bumping with the spur and jerking while holding the left rein and the horse couldn't go forward to get off the leg so he went up. I actually like to see a full video of the horse though to see what he is like normally.


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## toosexy4myspotz (Oct 7, 2007)

Maybe someone can answer this for me as I only do trail riding I may very well be wrong. While I do believe this was rider error. But, when riding a horse like that (behind the bit I think is the right term) don't you train a horse to hold that position? You don't continuously keep pressure on the reins and "trap" them so to speak? I know with my guys I will bump both my reins to make sure they are staying soft and collected and balanced and flexing at the poll properlly. Shouldn't his reins be looser threw the whole ride? Cause to me the horse looks trapped the whole time.


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

As he said, this was a horse at a clinic, so most likely it came with problems. But man, if I was getting on a strange horse I sure wouldn't jump on and pick a fight right off the bat like that, he should have known better.


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## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

I am not a fan of Les, and he knows this. He is, and always has been, a bit heavy handed. That said, I am glad he walked away, he is a little long in the tooth for a snorty horse. One thing I do respect about Les is he shows everything, warts and all. I am a little disappointed that he blamed the horse, he is usually pretty quick to own his mistakes.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I haven't watched the clip, my internet is bad right now, but I don't think any of us are in a position to criticize Les Vogt.

Have a little respect for the man - He's accomplished more in a lifetime and had great (Not good, but great) horses, something most of us will only ever dream of. He's a better horseman than the entire forum put together. I've seen his work firsthand, and it's important to remember even if you have been riding for years and years you can make a mistake.

From the sounds of it there was some misinterpretation of bridling a horse up, or him using his hands. A cowhorse has to TAKE that. Bash it all you will, there's no room for error or a lift of the head in that class. You take their head and leave them alone. If they raise up, you take it back then leave it be again, until they travel with it in one spot and respond to you driving them up from their hind end.

I'll watch the clip later.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

^^You really need to watch the clip prior to offering an opinion. There was NO release. At any point. While I agree with his basic abilities as a horsemen and respect him as such, this horse was more than "bridled up". He was more like "cranked in".


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## myyky (Sep 8, 2010)

I have NO idea who the guy in the video is, but I assume he was a top trainer, or some such in the US?

The riding I saw was absolutely terrible. That poor horse, he's lucky it didn't kick him in the head for good measure. Rearing like that is human created unless the horse is an absolute nutcase (a case worth shooting) which I highly doubt this one is.. 

Yank yank yank, and then the horse does EXACTLY what the rider is asking.


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## Fahntasia (Dec 19, 2011)

SorrelHorse said:


> I haven't watched the clip, my internet is bad right now, but I don't think any of us are in a position to criticize Les Vogt.
> 
> Have a little respect for the man - He's accomplished more in a lifetime and had great (Not good, but great) horses, something most of us will only ever dream of. He's a better horseman than the entire forum put together. I've seen his work firsthand, and it's important to remember even if you have been riding for years and years you can make a mistake.
> 
> ...


You really need to watch the clip, i dont care if he was the best rider in the world with the prettiest ponehs, that was poorly done. There was no release, the horse responded as all horses do, fight or flight! He got that burr off his back a.s.a.p to get release. 

People freak out over rollkur, which i do NOT agree with, I think its a horrid practice, this looked just as bad imo.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

I don't care if this man won more trophies then any other human on the planet. THAT riding was BAD and WRONG. I suspect if that is his normal way of getting to the top, he has a lot of horses with sore mouths and worse as well. '

I have gotten to a place in my life where trophies and awards impress me far less then a persons character. This was a short clip and he is a likely a lot more of a man then that clip showed. That said, what I saw here was more then enough to judge that ride. 

There was a trainer in the Tennessee Walking world that won championship after championship as well. They caught him on video abusing the heck out of a horse. So much so that it caused a nationwide frenzy about the abuse in the Big Lick shows. My point being, winning means nothing to me, if it takes abuse to get there. What the man in the video did to that horse's mouth was out of line in my book. I would never expect a horse to endure abuse to it's mouth like that for any reason, and certainly not for a trophy or ribbon. From what I saw in the video, that horse was very willing and didn't do anything to deserve that ripping on his mouth.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Inga-I would NEVER compare this to the Big Lick abuse. Sorry, but nothing compares to that. WE also do not know anything but what we saw in 40 seconds. Therefore, we have no idea how truly "willing" the horse was.All we can see is that for that 40 seconds, there was no release. Don't get me wrong, I don't support his yanking, but we can only judge by what we see here.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

My point wasn't saying it was the same thing as the Big Lick abuse. There is nothing that I have seen to date (and hope there never is) that will compare to that in the horse world. My POINT was that abuse it abuse and winning the most trophies and titles is still no excuse for it. That comment was in response to Sorrelhorse who hadn't even watched the clip but defended this mans abilities because of his accomplishments in life. In my book, those accomplishments mean nothing if the means of getting there are abusive.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Yeahhhh. I don't care who he is either.

What got to me was this video wasn't presented as a "what not to do", instead he blamed it on the horse... That's poor character and poor horsemanship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

SorrelHorse said:


> I haven't watched the clip, my internet is bad right now, but I don't think any of us are in a position to criticize Les Vogt.
> 
> Have a little respect for the man - He's accomplished more in a lifetime and had great (Not good, but great) horses, something most of us will only ever dream of. He's a better horseman than the entire forum put together. I've seen his work firsthand, and it's important to remember even if you have been riding for years and years you can make a mistake.
> 
> ...


Watch the video and then come back and tell us he wasn't heavy handed. I agree he has done alot and as said in my earlier posts I like his bits and tack. His riding I've seen up until this point was good. he's isn't my favorite out there but he is a heck of alot better than alot I've seen. That being said IMHO this was a major hiccup in his riding. It happens. Hopefully it doesn;t happen again or isn't a regular thing..

Oh, and a cowhorse does not have to "TAKE" that.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

Respect does not = free pass for a mistake. Everybody is human everybody MAKES mistakes and everybody will critique ad form their on opinions on it.

I have loads of respect for Monty Roberts.....does that mean that I have to be blindly devoted too him if(when ) he would make a mistake? Nopers ;P


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

That is just horrible riding that did that.

poor horse. I hope he didn't get beat for that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morganarab94 (May 16, 2013)

I don't know who he is, but his riding was terrible. If I was a horse I would've flipped my lid too.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Granted, I'm taking this video clip with a grain of salt because we don't get to see what happened before all of this. BUT.... I do not blame the horse for going over on him. The way he *jerked* on that right rein, with the horse looking very confused, there was no where for the horse to escape except to go up. 

I'm very happy that neither he nor the horse was hurt, but that was a big mistake on his part by the way he was riding. (In the clip that we see.)

I too do not like to climb on strange horses. But he cannot possibly blame the horse in that clip. That was HIS fault.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Truthfully? I bet he's gotten far too used to riding those good natured horses that just tolerate being handled like that. This horse isn't tolerant enough to just "grin and bear it". Sure, the horse may have a history, but what I saw was 100% rider error.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Those good natured horses that you speak of Smrobs is probably exactly it.

Where I work now, my boss is a big time cowhorse trainer. If the horse even so much as swishes his tail, raises his head, or does anything that may even hint at him having a bad temper - He's out. 

Of course, this sort of mindset is what producers high dollar, good minded horses which then leads to good minded offspring, good minded lines, and a good minded breed. A horse who swishes his tail at the snaffle bit futurity will NEVER win it, even if it's only once. A horse who won't take a pull or make up for your mistakes won't win it either. It's just how it is these days. The standard for horses is very high above local levels and small associations most of us (Including myself) are used to.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Surely it takes a lot of time and effort to make the perfect horse though - and not something you'd expect from one you'd never sat on before and had likely never had the training


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

He would've come through it had he left that outside rein alone at that -exact- moment. Waited another stride or two until the horse got un-stuck and was traveling forward again first. Sometimes our mistakes can come down to split-second timing - though that horse was already close to the line. Things can happen quick when the life is up in them. That energy can re-direct and come out somewhere other than you intended rather easily. Though I imagine that to a guy like Les Vogt, he's just used to holding horses to high standards all the time because of who he is and what he does for a living. Right, wrong, or just the way it is? I've seen too many different ways of doing things to say for sure anymore. I prefer trying to learn something from it for myself going forward and leave aside the blame game. Pretty spectacular-looking wreck though!


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Subbing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Subbing
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You killed it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Ian McDonald said:


> You killed it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
LOL! It's what I do


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