# Collection at the Trot?



## Colby Jack Seige (Feb 1, 2016)

Hay yall! I've finally gotten myself an English saddle, and I'm in love. I'm planning to show him, but not in anything big, just an end of the week horse camp show at which I'm a CIT. 

CJ has pretty beautiful gaits if I do say so myself, but when he trots, he isn't collected at all. I've done lunge work with no lunge line and just in a roundpen, and when we do that, he's collected beautifully at a walk and trot, and his back looks great and flat. (I just attach his reins to his stirrup bars since one of my O-rings is broken.)

However, when I get on, he'll collect perfectly at the walk, and I know he understands what I want, all I have to say if his head isn't quite right is "put your head down" and he'll immediately fix it. But when I ask him to trot, the head goes up, almost completely parallel to the ground. If I tell him to put his head down, nothing changes. 

Usually I'll bring him down to a trot, tell him to put his head down and try again, and I might get a few semi-collected steps, but after that his head creeps back up and I can't get it down again. I do reward him when he's a little collected for only a few steps, but I can't get him to fully collect at all. Any suggestions?

Thanks!!


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Stop saying collection. Collection is a very high level of training that takes years to achieve. Collection isn't expected until at earliest 2nd level.


You are focused way too much on the head. You can't use a verbal "head down" cue and achieve anything. Roundness, which is a much more attainable goal for the broader population, or even just softness, is a product of the whole body working. What you are trying to teach is a headset.


Are you working with a trainer? For a green horse and rider, this is a difficult concept to get alone. You need to have a soft hand which means a strong core, independent legs, and a following seat. The horse must be soft in the mouth and take the hand without resistance, be able to bend and flex with small aids, then will start to drop into your hand when you drive up with the seat and legs. If one is tougher in the mouth you have to be able to ask for softening and release the pressure at the right moment, but not throw away the reins, while in conjunction with the leg to support it.


It's not as easy as people make it seem, but once you figure out the formula it's not difficult to get.


Also, was that new saddle evaluated for fit? An ill fitting saddle with make any horse resist working over their back. Have their teeth been checked? An uncomfortable mouth wont make them want to take the hand. 


(I'd write more but I'm at work...)


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## Betty (Dec 17, 2012)

I agree with ApuetsoT about getting the saddle fit checked, teeth, etc. If all that is in order, try riding inside leg to outside rein getting his rib cage (not is neck) bending around your inside leg. Think more about bend and push from your seat than where his head is. Focusing on the horse's headset and not the rest of his body will not help him work through over his back in the long run. Maybe take a lesson or two from a dressage coach - that will help get you on your way faster.


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## Colby Jack Seige (Feb 1, 2016)

First off, he is NOT a green horse. Very experienced, more than I am in fact. 
Second of all, I _should_ have a trainer, but having a horse is pretty expensive as it is, and I'm going to get one soon, but just not in the near near future. 

And apologies for calling it collection instead of roundness, wasn't aware there was a difference. I just want him to have an easier time trotting while I sit instead of post.


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## Colby Jack Seige (Feb 1, 2016)

Betty said:


> I agree with ApuetsoT about getting the saddle fit checked, teeth, etc. If all that is in order, try riding inside leg to outside rein getting his rib cage (not is neck) bending around your inside leg. Think more about bend and push from your seat than where his head is. Focusing on the horse's headset and not the rest of his body will not help him work through over his back in the long run. Maybe take a lesson or two from a dressage coach - that will help get you on your way faster.


Thanks! forgot to address the teeth and the saddle in my previous comment... Saddle fits us both just about perfectly, and I know the signs that CJ shows when a saddle doesn't fit (though they're pretty subtle.) And his teeth seem to be in pretty good shape from what I can tell, he doesn't drop much of his food, etc. However, the barn I'm at isn't very trustworthy in my opinion, so I'll get his teeth floated probably next month or so.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Colby Jack Seige said:


> Thanks! forgot to address the teeth and the saddle in my previous comment... Saddle fits us both just about perfectly, and I know the signs that CJ shows when a saddle doesn't fit (though they're pretty subtle.)


When was it last checked though?




Colby Jack Seige said:


> And his teeth seem to be in pretty good shape from what I can tell, he doesn't drop much of his food, etc.


That means nothing, when I bought my gelding he was 13, never dropped food, was fat and round. It was a few months later when the vet was at the barn for routine stuff and he was booked in for teeth, her first comment "Well if he hasn't killed you yet, he probably never will" She had never seen a mouth so bad, had to worked on every 3 months for a year to get him right.....so no outward signs, but he did get better at flexion and bend once his teeth were sorted.

OK, a reminder of terms, this is the path to true collection










Most of us are striving to get there, or have no need of a horse that actually collects, but we should all be striving for good rhythm, then suppleness then connection, I think most forms of riding need those three, and for all of it it starts with the hind end, not the head, get the rhythm etc right and the head will look after itself


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

If you can't get to a trainer, it's easier to understand it by watching videos(at least for me). Supplement with the written theory of it, but go to YouTube and search for some Dressage clinics. Some very nice quality ones are up there for all levels of riders. Might take some searching but they're there. If I wasn't at work I'd look for some.


This is a good website as far as theory goes(and others areas too):
::: Sustainable Dressage - Collection & Its Evasions - Preface :::


Are there any trainers in the area that you could work for? Any disciple would do. Some will give you a lesson in exchange for a day's worth of work, if you get really lucky you might be able to tack up/walk out their horses and watch them ride. Even if it's not your own horse it's a start.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

He's a camp horse, no? He probably has an established way of moving that works for him, seeing as how he must protect himself from do many different riders, who mainly have rough hands.
take all that into count when you start asking him to except that contact. Try to be understanding of his position and consider whether or not you might just let him have his head where he wants it. If you're showing in a Hunter Jumper type show, you don't really want his head all pulled back anyway.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

didn't read all the responses, but collection has nothing to do with level of head set, nor is the level of the head and neck the primary focus
In fact, head set, more or less takes care of itself, with just a slight fine tuning, once you have that Movement and impulsion from behind, with that horse keeping shoulders up, respecting the bit barrier, or light bit contact
Horses have a natural topline, based on how their neck ties into their whithers, so that stock horses, built to travel with a level topline, as shown in those videos posted by Sorrelhorse, where CA shows how to produce a light horse, natural carry themselves with that level topline, after being bridled up, and then allowed to travel on a loose rein
You need to feel that rhythm of a trot, which is a rhythmic two beat gait, -one, two, one, Two., and you need to drive with legs to maintain that even, one, two, one two
The horse needs to stay light in your hands, and when he feels like he is leaning on your hands, then he is also dumped on his forhand, regardless of where his head and neck are. Get thew movement, then the head c carriage for his conformation

Collection includes a head carriage, as the total picture, but you can have ahead carriage and no collection, with that horse having ahead carriage, yet hollowed out and on his forehand. In fact, that is what happens, esp when a head set is forced, with such things as draw reins. Not sure what you mean about tying reins back tot he stirrup,bar, but if you are doing so, you are also teaching that horse to dump on his front end


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

I went and found some videos.





 While this one is all at the halt and is focusing on the head, it's not working on a "head set". It's all about softening the jaw and a light feel. While you often hear the phrase "Ride back to front", you have to supple front to back. 





 A similair one. This one features a beginner rider and her bratty pony. Also just at the halt.






 Evention is a great channel, look at some of their other videos too. The exercises they talk about have to come after the horse takes the hand, but doesn't have to be perfect.

Here's a collection of others I found:




 




Can you see why it's easier with an instructor to yell at you in real time? Many, many 20m circles go into this.


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## Colby Jack Seige (Feb 1, 2016)

Wow!!! This is all so helpful and I'm really learning a lot you guys. I am going to be doing hunter jumpers, but I would like him to be a little "on the bit" if I used that phrase correctly. Once I get him to a trot, he kind of disregards all contact w the bit and just gets going. It's pretty difficult to try to control his strides, and speed without making him just go down to a walk or up to a canter. 

And thank you for the tip about it not being just the headset for what I want to do, but also engaging his back with my leg. I want to avoid using side reins while I'm riding because I feel like that goes against everything I've seen here from you guys. And in response to tinyliny he wasn't a camp horse, but he was a seasoned trail horse, and often had lessons with small kids due to his calm nature, so it is very likely that he had rough-handed riders. 

Extra thanks to ApuetsoT for all those videos!! I'm really excited to go out and work with CJ again 

Thanks again y'all! Keep the advice coming I can't get enough haha.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Colby Jack Seige said:


> I want to avoid using side reins while I'm riding because I feel like that goes against everything I've seen here from you guys. And in response to tinyliny he wasn't a camp horse, but he was a seasoned trail horse, and often had lessons with small kids due to his calm nature, so it is very likely that he had rough-handed riders.


I sure hope no one was telling you to ride in side reins. Those are for lunging purposes only. Even for lunging, you can't just slap them on and go. It still takes skill to get a horse to work well in sidereins. Draw reins, German martingales, neck stretchers, etc are all for use while ridden but really aren't good choices. At beat they can be used to preschool a difficult horse. You don't need to worry about any extras.

Many trail horses are never taught this, so while he might be broke and safe, this might not be in his skill set yet.

If your able, try and get some video and post it so we can see exactly what's happening.


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## cbar (Nov 27, 2015)

Definitely some good pointers here. This is something I'm currently working on with my gelding in my riding lessons. I am not worried so much where his head is...however we are trying to get him to engage his hind end more and not lean so heavily on my hand. 
He is an off-track Standardbred, so naturally he wants to carry his head up and straight. It has taken a TON of 20m circles to get this horse supple...after a few lessons with lots of circles and lots of pace change (walk/trot transitions), I can finally notice a real difference in my boy. I would not call it 'collection', but he is definitely more supple. 
It will get redundant, but circles will be super beneficial.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Okay, as an of track standard bred, he has been taught to drive, work off of the reins, with strong contact, has has exposure, but needs a complete education, far as being a riding horse, regardless if English or western.
Race horses, whether ridden or driven, know very little if anything, far as collection and leg aids-they run on the bit, and on their forehand
Even if you google sites on retaining an OTTB, much of it applies to a Standardbreds also, esp if that standard bred already accepts someone on his back
You have to re train a race horse into a riding horse.



Starting Over With Off-the-Track Thoroughbreds Part I
Not necessarily the best site, but you can google many of these sites that focus on re training a race horse into a riding horse, and understanding as to how they were taught to go, as race horse, versus a riding horse
Sure, you can get on a horse that was driven, and ride him on trails, as I rode our Percheron that we used in the tobacco fields, but that does nothing,far as creating a performance horse, regardless of discipline, as any horse that is going to be a good performance horse, needs all the basics, such as true collection, impulsion, being light and giving to a bit, understanding leg aids, being soft in his entire body, ect. In other words,go back and put on the basics, that you need on any performance horse


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## Colby Jack Seige (Feb 1, 2016)

ApuetsoT said:


> Many trail horses are never taught this, so while he might be broke and safe, this might not be in his skill set yet.
> 
> If your able, try and get some video and post it so we can see exactly what's happening.


I think I have some fairly recent video... I'll post ASAP


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## Colby Jack Seige (Feb 1, 2016)

https://giphy.com/gifs/XLyg3fnMwTaCs
This is the closest thing to a video I can do... but this is what it's like just about every time. I try to give him his head when we transition just so im not confusing him when I ask him to go forward, but is that wrong?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Do you see how he is elevating his head, trying to use forward momentum, versus giving at the poll, driving up from behind, elevating shoulders, not head?
No, do not throw him away, esp at this point, and riding English. You need to make him keep frame , and drive him up with your legs, and keep driving, as much as it takes, until you feel him soften, become light in your hands, then reward, by lightening aids.
A horse is 'collected' between your legs, which drive to give that impulsion from behind, and then the bit barrier contains that energy generated from behind, so the horse is 'collected/compressed, between your legs and hands, versus strung out. When a horse instead, resists the bit, as yours is doing, elevates his head, he is also hollowed out-and on his forehand-the opposite of what you want.
You can hold a horse, for as much as it takes, WHILE driving with your legs, Until he softens and gives in the face and poll. Holding is not pulling or jerking. 
If you try to out pull a horse, you are in a loosing battle, You can , however , drive that horse up onto that bit barrier, as hard as it takes, until he softens and becomes light in your hands, and when he does, you know he is off his front end


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## Emoore (Sep 14, 2015)

What Smilie said. Lots and lots and lots and LOTS of times. Over and over again. My mare was really bad about doing what you horse is doing in the video. She would trot all strung out front to back. About eleventy-billion trotted circles later she's nice and soft and carries he own weight rather feeling like she's falling all over the place. Trot circles. Drive forward with your legs. Hold his mouth steady but don't pull. Hands low and quiet. It will feel like forever. When you feel him soften for a second, release for a second. Then he'll string out again. That's okay. Drive forward, hold steady. Eleventy-billion trotted circles. When you feel him soften for two seconds, reward by releasing. Etc etc etc. Did I mention eleventy-billion trot circles? Your horse has been doing this a LONG TIME. It's his defense against tugging hands and jouncing seat. He needs to learn that you won't tug and jounce, and he needs to develop those muscles. But he'll get there.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

well, you can get a horse to give to the bit before asking for an up transition, or after he's transitioned up. either way, in a sense , you will be fighting with his head a bit. better is to work on lateral flexability. 

instead of using both reins to try and get him to 'come down' from his above the bit stance, use the inside rein, and use it frequently, to ask him to flex to the inside. at walk and trot, even at stand still. get him (her?) really attuned to the inside rein asking for that inward flexion. that will help.

also, prepare you horse for upward transitions. get them soft first, with that inward flexion, then ask for the upward transitions.


and, while I agree with Smilie about 95%, the whole "keep you hands low" think will often end up with folks trying to pull the horse's head down by keeping their arms low, and elbows locked, as if they were driving a wheelbarrow. dont' go there.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

Colby Jack Seige said:


> https://giphy.com/gifs/XLyg3fnMwTaCs
> This is the closest thing to a video I can do... but this is what it's like just about every time. I try to give him his head when we transition just so im not confusing him when I ask him to go forward, but is that wrong?


The video you link to helps understand what is happening.

Your horse is depending on the movement of his head and neck for much of the movement of his body – front wheel drive rather than rear wheel drive. When you ask for the trot, he is throwing his head and neck up to propel his front leg forward with greater effort to initiate the trot movement. 

Engaging all of the muscles and joints of the hind legs helps a horse drive from the rear putting less dependence on the front end. It takes time to develop the strength and flexibility of the hind end as well as to instill this new way of moving.

Riding a horse over polls helps encourage movement in more joints of the hind legs. The muscles used to do this begin to develop more strength and flexibility. Going up and down hills and performing lateral exercises are also useful. While this work can be done at other paces, walking focuses the work of each leg individually, and the horse cannot use momentum to ease the effort.

Be careful when focusing on developing the hind end to work progressively. Trying to do too much too soon can overstress muscles and delay progress.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

NO, never said to keep hands loo low, or try to force HEAD DOWN WITH YOUR HANDS. Many people will try to force ahead down, holding their hands way down low,and that is incorrect,Yu hold your hands in the normal riding position, which varies if you ride with a snaffle , versus a curb (not taking English and double bridle
What I said, is you hold a bit barrier and drive the horse up with your legs,until he softens, and you make him keep frame during transitions

Of course, I should have mentioned that first you have to have that movement , correct from behind, and have to horse soft, both laterally and vertically, because you can;t expect ahorse to keep frame during transitions, if he does,t even understand how to give in the first place
Again, watch those videos , on creating a soft horse. I thought they explainded it well enough, and hand position certain is not low


here a curb is being used, but goes into getting asoft horse, which you nee , before you can expect transitions that are correct an din frame








Again, here is this video with CA. The horse is a two year old, thus in the snaffle, and hands are not too low to get that softness


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, those vidoes are western, but they show how you develop a soft horse.When a horse is soft, he rounds, drive up and remains soft in the poll and face, elevating his shoulders, driving up, during transitions, versus stiffening in the head and neck and elevating that head to make that transitition
before you can expect this 'collected, in frame way of moving, you have to have that softness and suppliness in the horse, and you get that by riding with legs, not just hands, and more legs that hands, and with timing, to reward when the horse gives


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The first thing you need to do is stop trying to ride in sitting trot - your core muscles aren't strong enough yet to do it and your horse's back muscles aren't developed well enough to do it either. 
Top dressage riders *don't* work young/green horses in sitting trot so take example from them
For now stop worrying about where his head is, lighten your hands and drive him forwards to get a consistent trotting pace to allow him to find and develop his own balance and self carriage. You're seat and legs will be stronger in posting trot to do that effectively
He's raising his head and inverting his neck in response to your hands niggling on his mouth because your sitting trot isn't smooth enough yet to keep them steady and maintain a soft even contact
When you have developed a better forward going action you'll find it easier to get your horse to 'round' up to the bridle if you ride in small circles and do lots of changes of direction and serpentines 
Charlotte Dujardin riding a young (but still more advanced than your horse) in a dressage competition and posting at trot


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## Emoore (Sep 14, 2015)

Smilie said:


> NO, never said to keep hands loo low, or try to force HEAD DOWN WITH YOUR HANDS.



Neither did I. ;-) I said 'low and quiet'. The opposite of high and busy? I mean to keep the hands in a riding position, in front of the hip joint, around level of the withers (I'm using a snaffle). Where Charlotte's are in the video above. Like a lot of people, I tend to get high, busy hands if I'm not thinking about it. My coach told me to think about keeping my hands 'low and quiet,' so they stay about where Charlotte's are in the video above. I promise I'm not a moron. I'll promise not to put words in your mouth if you'll do the same. Deal?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Neither did I. ;-) I said 'low and quiet'. The opposite of high and busy? I mean to keep the hands in a riding position, in front of the hip joint, around level of the withers (I'm using a snaffle). Where Charlotte's are in the video above. Like a lot of people, I tend to get high, busy hands if I'm not thinking about it. My coach told me to think about keeping my hands 'low and quiet,' so they stay about where Charlotte's are in the video above. I promise I'm not a moron. I'll promise not to put words in your mouth if you'll do the same. Deal?


 Was not even responding to your post, but that of TinyLinny, so chill out


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> The first thing you need to do is stop trying to ride in sitting trot - your core muscles aren't strong enough yet to do it and your horse's back muscles aren't developed well enough to do it either.
> Top dressage riders *don't* work young/green horses in sitting trot so take example from them
> For now stop worrying about where his head is, lighten your hands and drive him forwards to get a consistent trotting pace to allow him to find and develop his own balance and self carriage. You're seat and legs will be stronger in posting trot to do that effectively
> He's raising his head and inverting his neck in response to your hands niggling on his mouth because your sitting trot isn't smooth enough yet to keep them steady and maintain a soft even contact
> ...


As I mentioned, height of head has nothing to do with collection, but rather the way that horse's neck ties into his whither.
What matters, though, is that the horse gives in the face and poll, and keeps his head where he naturally carries it, when asked for that transition, versus raising his head above his natural topline,where he had it at the walk, or trot, if moving on to a canter, sticking nose out. In other words, he does not change where he was carrying his head, nor does he stick his nose out, but continues to give, while using impulsion from behind, and not dragging himself along on his front end, hollowing out, by pulling on the bit raising head


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

this British trainer is one that I enjoy watching. his name is Michael Peace. I think he has the most sympathetic way of riding. here he is working with an older horse , who has had a lifetime of going with his head up and neck locked up, just as your horse has. 

mr. Peace does not force this horse , not at all. but, he does use occasionally firm rein contact (and uses an indirect inside rein with an openning outside rein), but he always has a "free" place for the horse to move into . also , notice how high his hands are. becuase, since the hrose's head is high, he needs to , for the time being, have his hands up high enough to maintain that straight line to the mouth. only in this way does the snaffle function at its best. he can , in this way, have a smooth and sympathetic connection that the horse can meet with confidence, and that allows him to give releases the instant the horse lowers his head and flexs a tiny bit to the inside, AND keeps his shoulder up and is a bit softer in his whole body.

this is probably WAY WAY too much for you, OP, to understand at this point in your riding career. however, watch him ride, listen to how supportive he is of the hrose, patient, and understanding of this particular horse's history.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

See, I don't think his hands are high at all. When i ride with a snaffle, , in a western saddle, the bridge of my reins is above the saddle horn.
Yes, he is working in circles, working on lateral flexion, which is the beginning of vertical flexion
Like I said, body suppleness, is worked on, way before you try to ride just on the rail, collected. If it is not right ina circle, sure as heck won't be on the straight!
He is doing nothing different, far as developing softness, as used in any good program, as I think I have mentioned many times, you need correct movement and total body softeness, before you ever ask a horse to move collected, in frame
Using circling, changing directions, prevents a horse from bracing, and as, I have been told many times, 'you can't ride a board'

These horses are ridden in snaffles, and the hands are not low, yet the horses have good head positions, needed to work at speed, while staying soft in poll and face


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Guess I should use a HUS link at least, LOL, even though softness, body control are universal

Improve the Body Carriage of Your Hunter Under Saddle Horse, Part 1

From above link

In hunter under saddle, transitions are a good way to evaluate a horse’s self-carriage because the horse should not change a lot in his topline through a change from a walk to a trot or trot to a canter. That doesn’t mean he’s mechanical and stuck in a certain frame, but it means he’s steady and soft and balanced, and carries himself the same way through
all the gaits.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

That's a great video Tinyliny because the rider actually starts out with a horse that's less than perfect in the more extreme sense and he shows how, in a very short time, that with some simple schooling exercises and the right contact on the mouth he can be improved


Re. the hands high/hands low - your hands can be constantly moving including having one hand higher/lower than the other according to what you're doing or correcting but what does matter is that your hands are steady and not niggling and jiggling on the horses mouth because you as a rider aren't balanced in your own seat


I absolutely cannot compare the AQHA hunt seat style of riding to anything related to dressage or English/European style riding at all, the contact, the head carriage and their idea of collection is completely alien to me and I don't think that's what the OP is aiming for but if she is then I can't help her with that


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Good video, tinyliny. Thanks for pointing it out. I liked how he talked about evasions. Bandit is mostly ridden western and with one hand, but he came here a year ago using his front left leg twisted out 30 degrees. By December, he was using it front to back, but he still is protective of his shoulder (understandably, since he was raced while using it twisted!). I don't have the experience to teach him much better, but I'm all he has so a video like that helps me think about what to do.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The CA videos, I posted, and that Sorrelhorse posted first, show the same basic principles, only to a greater degree, far as getting a horse soft in his entire body. Do that, and the rest falls into place
Jaydee, I posted the link to HUS, as it goes into the main problems riders have, far as getting that correct movement, whether you want to end product to be a HUS horse or open English, and also has application western, minus the contact
I don't get that iron grip used in dressage, with tat extreme arch in the neck, but all that is neither here nor there, far as creating a soft horse that works off his rear

Since clicking on the link was missed, and focus on what open English do not like or understand about HUS, I will paste what I hoped the Op could read, and which might help her, regardless of final frame of her horse.You like strong contact- I do not-so to each his own, BUT:

'
What we’re striving for is a horse that looks through the bridle with his head level or above level, looking ahead instead of looking down with his nose behind the vertical.


As a rider, you can feel self-carriage when you squeeze with your legs and say go forward, and the horse drives up with the hock and pushes from behind, but you can control it through your hand. He doesn’t get behind the vertical or hide his head back in his chest. Instead, he wants to feel your hand and continue driving from behind. It comes from a horse having balance and strength and trusting your hand.

Self-carriage depends on the horse’s training development, as well as his physical fitness. As a horse gets fatigued, he feels heavier to your hand because he’s weakening through his topline.


As a rider, you can feel self-carriage when you squeeze with your legs and say go forward, and the horse drives up with the hock and pushes from behind, but you can control it through your hand. He doesn’t get behind the vertical or hide his head back in his chest. Instead, he wants to feel your hand and continue driving from behind. It comes from a horse having balance and strength and trusting your hand.

Self-carriage depends on the horse’s training development, as well as his physical fitness. As a horse gets fatigued, he feels heavier to your hand because he’s weakening through his topline.


I think the above info can apply and help the OP, whatever style she wishes to ride in an English saddle with!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Jaydee, I think this info could also help fromt hat link. I never suggested the OP ride HUS per say, but what fault do you see in possible problem list, below:



roblems

Poor balance. One of the biggest faults I see in hunt seat equitation and hunter under saddle riders is riding out of balance. They use their hands stronger, which makes their horse heavy and down on the forehand. They tend to grab the horse in the mouth to hold themselves up.

A rider with poor balance often has too long a stirrup; the heel is not underneath the hip, and the shoulders are too far forward or too far back. If you watch the very good horsemanship and equitation riders, you see a straight line from their shoulder to hip to heel.

If you don’t have a strong, stable leg with the weight down through your heel and strength in your calf, thigh and seat, you will not have good hands because you will always be using your hands for balance. It’s especially true in the hunter classes because you ride on a smaller saddle and need a lot more balance than you do in a western saddle.

Loose reins and long stirrups. Riding with the reins too long or looped is another problem. In a hunt seat direct rein, you should always have a light, consistent contact with the horse’s mouth and no loop in the rein.

A lot of riders use their hands to “fix” the horse’s head, pull the horse down into place and then pitch the reins away with no contact. That makes a horse uncertain because the feel of the rider’s hand is gone. More sensitive horses are harder to steady that way, because they are looking for reassurance in a consistent feel from the hand, and it’s not there.

Could your riding be hindering your horse’s self-carriage? AQHA’s “Equitation Clinic” DVD is filled with training tips and the expert advice you need to improve your performance.

If you’re cantering around a jump course, you never pitch your reins away. You maintain contact, your elbows and arms moving with the motion in a rhythmic give and take. It’s a feel with the reins where the horse has the freedom to move, yet you steady him between your seat and hands so his carriage stays consistent.

Because we’re used to riding western, we’re often guilty in our industry of riding with too long a stirrup. The hunter stirrup must be at a length where the rider can have a lot of stretch down into the heel. You get more balance from that, and it’s important when going over fences.

Because it can take longer to develop a bigger horse, it’s easier to ride a big horse by “trapping” him into a frame. A really good rider with a really strong leg and hand can trap a horse from her leg and seat up into her hand and hold him there in a set frame.

The problem is you have to use too much feel in your hands when you trap a horse into a frame: Your hand is a barrier and intimidates the horse to stay in that frame. The horse gets stuck there and always searches for your hand to know what to do or where to put his head.

If you have a horse that’s used to being trapped with his head low, you have to retrain his thought process if you want to go over fences. To jump, you want him to ride up to your hand with confidence.

When a horse jumps, he must use his whole topline over the fence. When you trap and intimidate a horse and get him backed off the bridle too much, he won’t use himself to his greatest ability over the fence because he’s afraid of being pulled on. He’ll be stiff and rigid when he jumps.

But if the horse trusts your hand, he’ll pull your hand like a handshake. You can squeeze that handshake when you want him to lighten or back off, or you can lighten that handshake when you want him to pull into your hand more. Your goal as a rider should be to learn that feel.

In the long run, you can’t jerk a horse into place and make him do what you want to do. You must go through the steps of gaining a horse’s confidence and trust. It’s about feel and training the horse to trust and go to your hand and stay there.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Jaydee, I purposely did not post a HUS video per say, to avoid difference ways of going, which has nothing to do with this post
There is useful info in that link, for the OP, esp since she has recently started to ride English, and admits to 'throwing her her away, during the transition

Tiny-good video, showing some correct application of the snaffle, esp in training a horse that has learned resistence


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I'll probably regret posting this, but watching Clinton Anderson ride makes me want to throw up in my mouth a little.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie - If a dressage rider has a horse in an iron grip then they've failed somewhere at the very start of that horse's training.
Do not confuse photo's of horses held in rolkurr with real progressive training - Goldenhorse has posted the diagram of how the journey to attaining true collection in the dressage horse is achieved and it is not done using hard hands and force.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Everyone here has given really good advice so I don't think I'll add too much. As mentioned, collection, roundness and just general suppleness are not easy for horses, especially if they have gotten used to carrying themselves a certain way, so it will probably take you a while. This has probably been mentioned, but just remember that even if he only gives you a teeny tiny bit of what you want, make sure he gets that release. Whenever I'm teaching a new thing, I reward a try that's in the right direction, even if it might not be exactly what I want. One thing my riding instructor always says is "the reward is in the release".


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## Colby Jack Seige (Feb 1, 2016)

tinyliny said:


> this is probably WAY WAY too much for you, OP, to understand at this point in your riding career. however, watch him ride, listen to how supportive he is of the hrose, patient, and understanding of this particular horse's history.
> 
> Schooling an older horse with Michael Peace - YouTube


I mean I do understand it... I've been riding for a while. But this is a great video.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Smilie - If a dressage rider has a horse in an iron grip then they've failed somewhere at the very start of that horse's training.
> Do not confuse photo's of horses held in rolkurr with real progressive training - Goldenhorse has posted the diagram of how the journey to attaining true collection in the dressage horse is achieved and it is not done using hard hands and force.


My point,was, while you don't like some things you see in HUS, and I don't like some things I see in dressage, basic principles in all good training programs are the same
, regardless of what frame or discipline you eventually wish to ride in, and that training comes way before you worry about whether you are eventually going to ride dressage, HUS, reining, ect
Of course there are some specifics, to degree or speed you wish a horse to move off of your leg, stopping from speed, or just a good square stop, ect, ect
First you need correct movement from behind, impulsion, softness not just in the poll and face, but in the entire body, able to move any part of that horse's body
I actually took dressage lessons one winter, as that is what our local club offered, and it did not affect how that horse later showed HUS
The OP's horse needs those basics, as shown in the video Tiny posted, the concept of lightness, perhaps not tot he degree of a reiner, but still that body control
This horse is just at the point of needing to,learn softness, drive from behind.
We had a program in Alberta, called the Horse Improvement program. Yearlings and two yea rolds were just judged on conformation, using form to function and a score.
Peformance patterns were for three, four and five year olds. They could be ridden with either a western or english saddle. They were not meant to be specific for any discipline, thus just to show trainbaility , athletic ability
An English judge and a western judge scored the pattern
The pattern featured many things of basic dressage test, like good transitions, at exact markers, halts, extension of gait at the trot (yes,even if riding western those were posted, to show that extension at the trot ), back up, basic side pass.
My score was one point different, between the English and western judge. Appaloosas were also evaluated, same day as Morgans and Arabians
I certainly did not try to have Smilie move like a western pleasure horse, as that was not the point-it was to show good basic training, where a horse can continue on in any discipline, and that is where I believe the OP's horse is at
I don't think we want to get in a debate, between HUS and dressage, as each allows either one of us to ride more like we want a horse to go, which is what is great, in the Horse World.
Sorry if I expressed my idea incorrectly, as I know a good dressage horse certainly has lots of training and body control, but the fact remains, they are ridden with more contact, and a frothy mouth is considered fine, and being slightly behind the vertical is forgiven, while I like none of those things You don;t like a HUS horse-fair enough! The Op can decide the style she wishes to ride, but in the meantime, and way before that point, the horse just needs some good basic training


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie - My comment has nothing at all to do with me liking or disliking AQHA Hunt seat
When I watched the OP's video I didn't get the impression that she was wanting the type of 'outline' seen in AQHA 'english' classes so I see no point in going down that route myself. 
The basic principles might be the same but the end result is totally different and if the way the horses go in those classes is what they call collection then its a very different viewpoint/understanding of collection than that seen in other European styles of riding - not just dressage. The small photo isn't a dressage rider but someone competing in a UK ridden hunter class


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I'll probably regret posting this, but watching Clinton Anderson ride makes me want to throw up in my mouth a little.


Have you ever ridden a reiner , with those expectations of lightness?
People get all excited about bull fighting horses, never researching the training used, or how about tying a dressage horse between pillars, to teach him to 'trot in place' ?

That horse is relaxed, going right back to alevel topline, carrying himself on a loose rein, after being corrected or bridled up.
I find it very funny, when people that have no idea of a discipline, have never trained a horse in that discipline, yet are experts at judging it or the training
Have you ever galloped a horse at speed, as into a sliding stop, and have that horse stop on a loose rein? Think your horse can turn a cow on the fence, without being taught that lightness?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Never said she needed to seek that outline, THUS I did not post a HUS video. I posted a link, that happened to be stock horse , but gave great info as for movement, keeping topline, not riding or balancing mainly on hands, nor throwing a horse away during a transition, esp in any discipline where contact is always used, and that horse never eventually learns to do so, on a loose rein
Recall that I also said level of head set and neck has nothing to do with collection, but is related to conformation and discipline expectations
Not even going to look as to what HUS videos you used as examples, as I can sure find some poor ones in any other discipline also!
Never once did I suggest that the oP strive for the level topline , or degree of rein contact, as seen in stock horse HUS. I gave a link to simple good basics-period


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Tiny, you posted a video on simple good basics, far as level needed on a rail or pattern horse.
The videos with CA, are on creating a stock horse performance horse, thus a horse doing maneuvers at speed, eventually doing all those maneuvers on a loose rein, including rating speed an stopping from speed so those tow videos are as far apart from expectations to eventual lightness, as day and night
Maybe ride a reiner, where he moves off that indirect rein, as if it were hot, in a spin,, or gallop him down that arena, stopping, and have that horse come to a sliding stop, keeping that giving in the poll and face.
That video you posted, is great, far as fixing ahorse that has learned to be resistant, using that snaffle to un lock that horse laterally, ect, but that horse is never going to be expected to move with that degree of lightness, at speed, as that reiner CA is bringing along
Perhaps that video with CA did not even belong here, except, I wished to show a degree of lightness that can be achieved on a horse, and the importance of having that horse yield every body part, even at speed


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

i posted a video that addressed how to help a stiff horse, set in his ways, get unlocked and learn to move in a new way. in particular, I like to draw attention to how considerate the trainer is of that horse's limitations.

CA's incessant pulling of the horse's head all the way around, so that the head twists, the nose comes up, the poll goes down, is a great way to create more heaviness on the forehand, and a greater disconnect between the rein and the hind end. the shoulders don't come up. the base of the neck does not come up. I don't see lightness at all. I see him creating 'jelly'. he even says he wants the horse to be like playdough. 
I dislike that so much, it's like he takes away all of the horse's dignity by wringing him so tight, so fast. he never 'asks'. he demands. he doesn't recieve, he takes.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_Have you ever ridden a reiner , with those expectations of lightness?_"

Nope. But I don't see how this can be good riding or reflect good training:

Clinton Anderson riding his horse Diez:






_"I find it very funny, when people that have no idea of a discipline, have never trained a horse in that discipline, yet are experts at judging it or the training.._."

I haven't said anything about reining as a sport, but I feel free to say I cannot stand how that horse moves, and how that horse moves reflects its training. I don't care about what wins in sport X. 

"_Maybe ride a reiner, where he moves off that indirect rein, as if it were hot, in a spin,, or gallop him down that arena, stopping, and have that horse come to a sliding stop, keeping that giving in the poll and face._"

Maybe the point is that sliding stops aren't the end-all of riding, nor even a very admirable part of it. Same with spinning in place. Trooper was a genuine ranch horse before coming here, and he never rode like that. Bandit has at least worked both sheep and cattle, and been used to chase coyotes. He doesn't hold his head like that, nor should he. It is a bad idea to disconnect the head from the body.

Of course, no one will ever pay for my opinions on riding. No one will ever ask me to give a pubic demonstration. I've never competed or won anything, nor will I. But I watched 3 videos of Clinton Anderson riding yesterday (after reading tinyliny's comment), and I gagged too. Just because a lot of people applaud something doesn't make it right. 

I've yet to see a horse move like that on a ranch. I'll be visiting the ranch Trooper grew up on in a couple of weeks, and I'll bet I won't see ANY riding like that. It has nothing to do with traditional western riding, which is rooted in this:










http://www.cartermuseum.org/collections/smith/collection.php?asn=LC-S59-420&mcat=3&scat=37


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

BTW - what I see is evasion, not lightness. One can be very light with contact, and be brutal using slack reins.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

subbing... >.>


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Here are my thoughts on the CA video BSMS posted.

The horse is VERY supple and light on the aids/cues/leg, however, he can't seem to hold his head straight. Literally looks like he is just flip flopping his head whatever direction CA pulled on the rein. In dressage, he would be overbent and dropping behind/below contact, which is an evasion technique used by the horse that always stems from incorrect training.
The horse would bring his head up into a more natural position at the lope, then CA bumps him right back down. I see similar headsets in Arabian shows, and it personally does not appeal to me.

However, I have never competed and haven't trained as many horses as CA, so I don't believe that I am qualified to judge.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

bsms said:


> BTW - what I see is evasion, not lightness. *One can be very light with contact, and be brutal using slack reins.*



deserves to go on the "quote of the day" thread!

my trainer calls such a thing "light and tight", meaning the hrose is tense, anxious , reactive with worry , pre-acting due to anticipation, and evasive of any contact on bit. seems to be 'light' but there's nothing between your legs and the bit because the more you ask, the more it sucks away from your leg or rein, and shrinks tighter and tighter.



and while I haven't trained a single horse, am a backyard, tennis-shoed home mom, I can still see the 'wrong' in his way of 'using' horses.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Boy, these threads always go this way, making me repeat this over and over again. Shoe ring competition, whether western pleasure, reining or even dressage , has zero to do with practicality outside of the show ring-it is meant to show degree of difficulty .
I don't see horses trotting in place, at liberty either
CA is not my favorite reiner, as there are many better then he is, but the fact remains, ranch cutting, as a horse helped with the reins, while a showring cutting horse has to work that cow, once cut, on a totally loose rein. You can take such a trained horse, and certainly cut cattle, while helping him, but you can't take a horse that has only done ranch cutting, and have him show successfully in a cutting competition.
What practical application does polo have, or football or tennis-zero. It shows level of athletic training and ability
What purpose does Airs above ground now have, except maybe to kick in a neighbours head
I wish Sorrelhorse would chime in, someone who understands creating the degree of lightness in that reiner, and I'm not even going to respond to the armchair critiques to reining, then to western pleasure, esp coming from those that have neither trained nor shown in either event, or even trained a horse-period!
Evasion, is a horse going behind the vertical, as I see many English horse doing, needing to have their mouths tied shut with a cavasson, or even dropped noseband. Lightness is a horse that stays correct, even on a loose rein, versus needing to be baby sat the entire time, a horse that has a quiet and closed mouth, not one that is frothing.
Loose reins are only brutal, if you jerk on them, taking slack out suddenly< or please explain how that can be otherwise. A horse that drops his head and neck back into a natural frame and way of going, when given that release, is hardly intimidated or heavy.
On the other hand, curbs used with constant contact, can be quite severe
I bet , in a few more months, you could drop that bridle completely off of CA's, horse, but doubt that horse in video posted by Tiny, would even ride correctly on a loose rein That is okay, if that is the only level , or what your discipline demands, but to critique disciplines where more is required, as to total self carriage and control, even at speed, on a loose rein, is rather ridiculous
Tiny, if you think you can ride a horse into a sliding stop that is on his front end-be my guest! That just negates anything you have said Try spinning a horse that is on his front end I suggest some judging lessons, to assess as to what you are truly seeing. There is life beyond a horse going down the rail, on contact, held between reins and legs!
Have you even tried to do flying lead changes on a loose rein, or pick up a lead that way-you also BSMS. 
This topic is going rather off the rail, as I know it is under English riding, and perhaps I should never have posted those videos of CA here, but if you wish to comment on them, at least do so, under the heading Sorrel horse posted them under(creating a light horse, I believe), if you really wish to get more than a one sided debate!, that only has the input of English and trail riders!
I did it quite innocently, thinking perhaps some of the principles, while not the discipline, would soak through, but apparently I was wrong!

Here you go-a place to discuss CA and training of Titan

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/cas-titan-anyone-following-703873/


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm pretty sure I was only saying critical things regarding CA, not reining.

I always maintain it's on opinion, and I am always open as to my background and skill level. you are free to take that into account and discount my opinion wholy

how CA ever got raised as an example to the OP, another lower level amature rider like myself, as a way to get her camp horse to not go inverted, . . . well, I do wonder. seems lightyears away from a good choice.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Smilie said:


> Tiny, if you think you can ride a horse into a sliding stop that is on his front end-be my guest! That just negates anything you have said Try spinning a horse that is on his front end I suggest some judging lessons, to assess as to what you are truly seeing. There is life beyond a horse going down the rail, on contact, held between reins and legs!
> smilie, you know very well i could not ride a spin on a horse such as is done in reining. you also know I don't ride on a rail on contact horse held between reins and legs.
> that said, it was you that spoke , early in this thread, about taking a firm hold on the front and driving the horse up from behind. I think that's sort of "on contact held between reins and legs".
> 
> ...


I will leave you with your thread on Titan, who is a lovely horse and will be a wonderful performer, I am sure.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Off Topic:

Folks who enjoy reining are welcome to enjoy it, just because. Same with polo & trail riding. There is nothing "practical" about my riding, which could be done more practically on a 250 cc dirt bike. There is nothing "natural" about where my horses live.

All I'm saying is that because something works in reining (or dressage, or polo, or trail riding), that doesn't mean anyone else needs to do it too.

I don't ask my horses to move with high collection, do sliding stops or help me chase a ball around a field. But I ask them to go out on trails that sometimes bruise their feet. I try to help them watch out, but Bandit got a good bruise not long ago just moseying down a trail. So I'm not throwing stones. But OTOH, I don't pick out rocky trails and then ask them to gallop across them while judges watch, either...

On-topic:

"_Evasion, is a horse going behind the vertical..._"

Yes, and that is what it looked like to me in the video I posted. A horse can be kept behind the vertical on slack reins, if it has been taught that it must do so to avoid punishment.

Light does not refer just to pressure present in the mouth. Emotional pressure also counts. When I see a horse going fast with its head past the vertical, on slack reins, I wonder "Why?" That head position limits its ability to see where it is going, and it also creates stress for the horse (at least that is what some blood studies indicate). So why would a horse do something that impairs its balance, impairs its vision and cause stress?

The contact shown in tinyliny's video was intended to teach the horse how to move better under a rider. That is contact for a purpose. I can understand how ANY rider could want to do it to help their horse.

I do not understand why very many riders would want a horse to move like CA's horse, nor would I consider it a good goal for an average rider to aspire to learn.

BTW - I don't do flying lead changes either. I spend little time in the arena, and our trails are mostly straight, sharp turn, straight, drop, straight, sharp turn, etc. I don't know of any place near me where I can canter a horse for more than a quarter mile without serious risk of injury to their feet.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, lets leave Titan's discussion on his own thread. Thank you
Again, Those videos were not meant to have the OP or anyone else, strive to ride reining,, nor have those expectations-just were meant to show the concept of having a horse move very lightly off of reins or legs-That was it. Most don't need a horse to perform at that level.
I do know, that horses that are trained to be very responsive, are also horses that ride out on trails, without the usual questions of, my horse balks my horse spooks and bolts, my horse won't tie, my horse walks over me, my horse raises his head and is heavy, when I ask for a lope/canter,,my horse won't back up-
Do I like everything I see CA doing? Certainly not, but then I am not trying to show a horse at that level either
I also don't like how some dressage horses are trained either, esp with the use of Rollkur
So, let's discus CA and Titan, on the topic input was asked for, and concentrate on the Op's question here. The OP also does not need videos of dressage horses, nor English horses with that extreme 'tight neck and head carriage, but just tips on her question.
Thus, before ever worrying about collection at the trot, or any gait, that horse needs holes in basic training addressed. A horse that is trained and conditioned to be soft in his entire body, also becomes soft in the face ans poll. Lateral flexion is the beginning of vertical flexion
A horse has to also both learn to give to abit, and to wait for that release, versus trying to achieve it by pulling, or the rider immediately giving back to the horse, the minute he gives, so that an up down, give, resist, ask, give, resist, does not occur
You ride with more legs that hands. Yes, level of head set and neck carriage alone does not indicate collection, but is more closely related to conformation-however, when a horse elevates his head beyond where he naturally carries it, sticks nose out, s the OP's horse is doing, collection has also fallen out the window
Far as using a snaffle for lateral work, using those reins independently, that is fundamental principle of using a snaffle correctly, to teach a resistant horse softness and give, so that video Liny posted, is a good basic 'kindergarten concept , and not earth shattering


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

"good basic 'kindergarten concept , and not earth shattering "


My specialty.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

This thread was made by someone riding "english' and looking as if they were wanting to achieve a dressage style headset and interested in how to achieve it through collection
It would be far more helpful to her to give advice based on dressage experience with videos that show English riding to support that than to start straying off into Western riding - and where on earth reining fits into it I do not know
The forum's got plenty of Western threads to put examples of western riding and training on


And Rolkurr is banned - and as desirable to the majority of dressage riders as peanut rollers to WP


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The horse is at basic level, and if you get those basics first, head set falls into place, along with expected level, ect. Collection has zero to do with any specific headset/neck level, as principles of true collection are universal, and the answer is in the back, not the front end!
It is a blind leap of faith, to assume the OP wants a dressage type on anything, having just gotten an English saddle, wanting to show at some kind of local level, whatever that might be.
At that level, any Judge should judge a horse against the ideal of it;s won breed standard. and not just horse against horse
I have shown open English, against all breeds, including 'traditional English horses, like TBs and Arabians, and won the class, under a judge from a dressage background, so to focus on any specific topline, at this point is redundant, esp on a horse that has no idea how to give to a bit, and drive from behind!


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Smilie, I know you asked me to come over here - But I'm not sure I have this sort of energy, lol.

I feel your pain, repeating constantly what is said, but I do not think there is any hope of understanding. I did not read this whole thread through, but anyone who disagrees that the horse ridden by CA in that video shows a high degree of lightness, talent, and training is blind. That's all I can come up with.

I have met with CA in the real world, I have ridden with him, had a beer with him. He is an awesome guy, he's hilarious, and he has a very strong understanding of how horses think and how they move.

It is VERY hard to get a horse to relax at speed and under pressure like what is asked of a reiner or a cowhorse. There is a reason so many of them flunk out. My own horse is a flunk because she can't show with style. She does stop like a banshee, but she raises her head. Any horse can stop with their head up. It's bracing, it's undesirable, and it's just *too **** easy. * (Not to mention the adverse effects on the horses body. It's funny how everyone complains about how horses who stop with their head down look "sad" or "fake", and complain about how the reiners can't stay sound ((Also untrue)) but totally neglect the alternative, which is head up, stiff, more weight on their hocks and more jamming on their knees...But whatever.)

For me, a horse isn't responsive if they are raising their head up on me. There is no collection if a horse has a coyote appearance while moving. There is no softness through the body without softness in the mouth. There is nothing you can achieve without getting bit softness. Just MY way, which definitely works as I look around and see a barn full of awesome horses - Even my greenest one can run herself down the arena and slam her hind in the ground on a loose rein. It's not wise to do that too frequently on a green horse, but they have been taught such lightness that she could, undoubtedly.

I am total BFFs with another guy who rides dressage at my barn. You would be surprised how many of our concepts are the same. We go on about it all the time. I ask his help with some things, and just the other day he used some of my exercises for a lead change that helped him.

Honestly the only difference between his horses and mine are saddle choice, bridle choice, and movement. All our horses can do the same things (Maybe mine with more speed, but 'tis how the cookie crumbles) Of course his ISH is going to move more upright than my little cow bred horses, and their heads are going to be held higher - That's how they are conformed. I couldn't get mine to raise their heads up that high if their lives depended on it without also having them nose out. 

Look at the difference, to prove my point.


















But what's the different between this:










and this










except what I have already stated? 

And if you think either of those is achieved without a little (or a lot) of this

















(*again, what's the difference?)*


You are kidding yourself. 

Some of us have been living it for long enough to know what it takes, and if you really hate CA's riding all that much - You probably are going to absolutely hate the rest of the industry too, and better be prepared to swallow that if you enjoy things like this.











The alternative is this.











(Sorry for the heavy post content. I'm leaving now.)


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I agree with you, Sorrel:

"For me, a horse isn't responsive if they are raising their head up on me. There is no collection if a horse has a coyote appearance while moving. There is no softness through the body without softness in the mouth. There is nothing you can achieve without getting bit softness. Just MY way, which definitely works as I look around and see a barn full of awesome horses - Even my greenest one can run herself down the arena and slam her hind in the ground on a loose rein. It's not wise to do that too frequently on a green horse, but they have been taught such lightness that she could, undoubtedly.

I am total BFFs with another guy who rides dressage at my barn. You would be surprised how many of our concepts are the same. We go on about it all the time. I ask his help with some things, and just the other day he used some of my exercises for a lead change that helped him.

Honestly the only difference between his horses and mine are saddle choice, bridle choice, and movement. All our horses can do the same things (Maybe mine with more speed, but 'tis how the cookie crumbles) Of course his ISH is going to move more upright than my little cow bred horses, and their heads are going to be held higher - That's how they are conformed. I couldn't get mine to raise their heads up that high if their lives depended on it without also having them nose out. "


however, never in my life have I seen a dressage trainer of any skill spend hours pulling the hroses head way over, from side to side, regardless of the twist that the hrose is putting into the head to avoid correct lateral flexion at the poll in order to create softness in the BODY.
most trainers I know would avoid this like the plague.

while you say that all disciplines value softness, what is considered correct softness and how to get it are not the same.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I have always wondered how english people start their colts and void getting killed if the horse doesn't bend around to each side. I have honestly never seen it done.

Dressage riders get to ride with contact, that's how they can avoid that - And I have seen some do it, on green horses, to emphasize the bend - Just as a western rider will and as I will, if I need to. If I have to run my horse in there are mach 5 and I don't get to pick up any contact, I expect him to understand that bend means bend NOW and nothing less, and since I'm expected to give as invisible of cues as possible (As in dressage) I have to find a way to make that tightening of my hand muscles (All I would dare do in a show) to mean bend.

That, whether you like it or not, is how. I spend a lot of time teaching that horse inside leg means ribcage bend and lift, in a "c" shape - Something I also use in my barrel horses. 










Notice how when I run this same horse her head is not bent that way.









Wonder why that is?

Because I train 150%, with the expectation that in the warm up pen I'll get 100%, and in the show ring I'll get 90%. 

You train above and beyond the reaction that you want, so when it comes time to run down there at 40MPH to turn, stop, catch a cow, whathaveyou - It takes half as much effort and you still get that same result. 

And I don't know about dressage riders, but I expect mine to be able to move any direction and all their body parts completely independently of their head (And each other)

I can be trotting that circle on that extreme bend, and I can move in a circle the other way. Or stop and spin with her head like that. I can back up with her head like that. I can go straight. Sideways. Whatever. Why? Because she's broke. 

This is her years ago when she was much less soft.






She's always been a troubled one. If she had been started by someone else (Like maybe CA) then the man who did, she wouldn't have had these troubles. She would go as easily as his horses do. An average horse, it doesn't matter, the average rider wouldn't notice - Oh, but while I am an average competitor I sure do notice and it drives me mad every day.






That is her sire. If only she had the hands on her in the first two years of her life that he had, she would be a much better horse. 'cept she's not - she's an average horse. And she is my very minimum amount of training I will accept on one.

I guarantee that Lean With Me spent a lot of time having done to him exactly as Titan has, as CA does. (I can speak for that because I know how Avila gets around on one - Man if there was someone I could spend more time with, it would be him.) 

On a side note it sure does make me nostalgic. When I did finally get her on a cow she moves just like her daddy. In another life I suppose!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

See, hopeless Sorrelhorse!
A dressage horse never moves at that speed, yet under control, stopping correctly from a full out run down, or to turn a cow on the fence. It takes a different degree of softness and flexibility
Both dressage and reining, reply on body control, but reining maneuvers are done at speed and on a loose rein, so the training is not the same, as the end results have their own different requirements. I don't know why that is so difficult to understand, nor to understand riding a horse eventually on a loose rein, is not one and the same as riding ahorse that is always supported between reins and hands, and more micro managed
I already went into level of head set being linked to conformation, and not in itself, having anything to do with collection, beyond that softness, ans as the end point when the rest is correct. (engagement behind, impulsion )
Again, discussion needs to go under the proper topic


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

You know, if you really wanted to get this going, you could start on Parelli too :lol:

Of course I have seen plenty of reining videos before. I love the reining freestyles. I decided to go watch a few more to make sure my eyes are in perspective. I still think the way the horse looked on the video BSMS posted looks very odd. However, reining horses are supposed to have that low headset, I don't know why I never realized/noticed it before.

Here is a world champion:






Here is CA on a different horse:







Then I grabbed a freestyle to compare (couldn't help clicking the frozen one, lol!). This horse's headset doesn't seem so low, less 'severe' or 'exaggerated' for lack of a better term. Maybe where the horse's head is doesn't matter as much in the freestyles. I don't know. I'm sure our reiners such as Sorrel can educate us.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_For me, a horse isn't responsive if they are raising their head up on me. There is no collection if a horse has a coyote appearance while moving. There is no softness through the body without softness in the mouth. There is nothing you can achieve without getting bit softness_."

Screen capture of Clinton Anderson:



















The second one was at the 0:50 mark in the video I liked to earlier, so anyone can watch it themselves to see if I cheated and took a bad spot.

I see neither softness nor good riding. The video I posted was the first one I found on YouTube when looking for samples of his riding. I see nothing admirable or useful about it.

Head position:

For a horse moving responsibly - ie, where the horse has responsibility for where it puts his feet - the head angle will depend on speed. Horses have a small, horizontal section of their eye which gives near human vision. While they have nearly 360 degrees of SOME vision, their GOOD vision is extremely limited...particularly their good binocular vision.

In an arena, where there is nothing but level dirt, one can afford to ride a horse who is not looking where he is going. If that is what it takes to win in a horse sport, and if you AND your horse are fine with it - then so be it. I'm also not a fan of having a horse do spins just to impress an audience. But there is nothing perfect or flawless about how I keep or ride horses, so others are welcome to do what they wish.

But in the real world, riding around when your horse cannot see where he is about to put his feet is not helpful. Even the pavement I ride on will have a pot hole or two. Desert trails can be glass smooth for 25 yards, then have rocks sticking out. It is simply bad riding where I live.

Decades ago, long before I started riding regularly, I was visiting a ranch in Idaho. The horse bolted in a large pasture. I had been told to turn his head to turn him, and turning sounded better than running eventually into a barbed wire fence. So I pulled...and he didn't turn. I got his nose against my knee, and he didn't turn. Fortunately, an old cowboy had told me some time earlier that a horse wouldn't always follow his nose, but he HAD to follow his shoulders. So I leaned back and started kicking the snot out of his shoulder, and he started turning. Not fast, but enough that we didn't run into the barbed wire fence. And after about 60-90 seconds, he ran out of steam.

But FWIW, that is why I don't like my horse to get too flexible in the neck. 

Nor do I see a need for it to develop softness. I read Baucher's book on riding (part of it) yesterday. It is interesting. However, he also emphasized he wanted a relaxed jaw and a relaxed poll, not one that was bent just to be bent. He DID want a vertical face, but he did his riding indoors. Indoors, the horse can learn where his feet go does not matter. Still, a horse can flex the snot out of his neck and not be listening to the rider. Many will do it in order to AVOID listening to the rider!

If folks watch the video I posted and see great riding...well, I don't. I don't like to see a rider's knees at the withers, not unless he is a jockey. And I don't like to see a horse ridden with his head way behind the vertical and a rubber neck, regardless of how tight the reins are. If anything, I prefer rollkur to be done via a tight rein versus seeing it done via intimidation and fear. At least then I don't wonder what happened behind the scenes to get the horse to be so utterly fascinated with looking at its front hooves.

I'm a Craigslist rider of Craigslist horses. But like anyone else, I get to decide how I want to ride. And I don't want to ride the way Clinton Anderson did in the video I posted. That is not "softness" to me. It is not "willing obedience" to me. And since even my tiny arena has no level ground, it isn't safe riding to me.

Softness:

To me, it implies a horse who is listening and ready to do what you ask. In this old picture of Mia, she was being very soft:










Softness, to me, is not an angle of the head. It is, so to speak, an "angle of the MIND" - it is the horse paying attention to you and being willing to do what you ask. When Mia (or Bandit, now) was "soft", I could accelerate at a kiss, slow at a whispered "Easy", and turn with my pinkie on slack reins.

Now, my horses being my horses, they also were and are opinionated. And a horse who is relying on HIS opinion and not listening to his rider is "hard". Physical suppleness plays a role in getting a horse "soft". Heck, I spend my first 15-30 minutes looking terrible on a horse because that is how long it takes for my body to loosen up, and I look & ride badly when stiff as a board. Fortunately, my horses try to compensate for my failure.

But a person can have a very soft horse riding on gentle contact, or a very hard horse riding with slack reins. It isn't the HEAD position that makes a horse soft. It isn't the shape of the reins. It is the MIND position. My oldest daughter - not my youngest who rides all the time but my oldest one - rode Mia once when Mia was in a good mood. She said it was like Mia was telepathic, that Mia was doing what my daughter wanted before my daughter could cue for it. THAT is my definition of softness, the kind that really matters.

All IMHO, as a Craigslist rider of Craigslist horses, and not even a GOOD Craigslist rider. But that description of softness matches what I've felt when riding my horses.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Well, it's true that I really dislike the way CA rides in general, with the hrose being cranked back behind the vertical more often than not. but, the point I've been 'arguing' was more about the way he does his neck"flexions" and whether or not that really is beneficial to a horse, and if there's not a different/better way for the OP in this thread (long lost, long gone) to get some pointers.

I think, when I get back from grocery shopping, I'll see if I can't start a seperate thread, not to bash CA or any trainer particularly, but to talk about this whole thing of neck flexions, which he seems to rely on so much, and which is pretty much unheard of in classical dressage or Hunter/jumper.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hello, hello, one and all.
First lets take the comments concerning CA/s riding to the thread on Titan, and those videos posted, versus confusing this thread, or trying to dig up every bad example you can.
BSMS-reiners have shoulder control, for GOd's sake-that is very, very elementary , and the flexing done in not exclusive to teaching shoulder control, just a separate tool. Take reining clinics from any good reining trainer, and that is very, very, very basic! Glad you found out though, that a horse follows his shoulders, regardless of where his head is, until he is taught to follow his nose with his entire body in aleignment Think you can do a roll back or a spin or a good flying lead change without shoulder control?
Surely there is no need to show the dressage blue tongue video, or go down that path!
Now, can we have reining comments on the Titan thread, and any CA bashing there , please????
BSMS, from all you posted about Mia, describing her as soft, regardless of that relaxed picture, where you are asking her to do not much, KINDA HAS ME THINKING OF HER AS ANYTHING BUT A SOFT HORSE. You had to use a curb, to prevent her form bolting.
Titan thread, and Sorrelhorse can then help answer any of your questions and comments, being active presently in training reiners-okay?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...Surely there is no need to show the dressage blue tongue video, or go down that path!
> 
> ...BSMS, from all you posted about Mia, describing her as soft, regardless of that relaxed picture, where you are asking her to do not much, KINDA HAS ME THINKING OF HER AS ANYTHING BUT A SOFT HORSE. You had to use a curb, to prevent her form bolting....


1 - If dressage riders said they admired the blue tongue video, and thought it was good training and good riding, it would be relevant. But most dressage enthusiasts dislike rollkur, at least in the hands of anyone who is not already an expert. I don't know if I have EVER seen a dressage rider speak in admiring terms of the 'blue tongue' video. 

2 - You miss the point about Mia, who was, as I pointed out in my post, an opinionated horse. Yes, I used a curb bit to TEACH her that bolting was not useful, and then she never bolted again, in curb or snaffle.

But while I was not asking much of her in that picture, the point was that she was listening and ready to do anything I asked, even though her head was not tucked in. Had I wanted to do an immediate 180, it would not have taken much. We did lots of those waiting for other riders on trails between cactus, and she could do them with very slight pressure - WHEN she was listening and willing. And she did them without a head in the vertical, let alone way past the vertical!

Of course, when she (or Bandit) was/is NOT listening...then no, they are not "soft". *Softness comes from the MIND of the horse*. *NOT the angle of the horse's head!*

I do not define softness as "Stopping a running horse at full speed and sliding". If that is "soft", then I don't need "soft". So I gave how I define it, which has nothing to do with show competitions. But if the long-forgotten OP wants a horse to collect more at a trot, then softness - as I define it - is a good thing to have.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

How about discussing thoughts from this link and pictures, as they are more related to this thread.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ Because I don't see where folks are bashing reining, nor do I want to take part in bashing dressage. If people and their horses want to do dressage or reining, that is their business. But posting a video of bad dressage - bad in the sense that most dressage riders dislike it and refuse to ride that way - helps no one.

I've become rather anti-horse sport because of how humans always seem to take things to an extreme. When humans compete, horses too often lose. But there is good dressage, good reining, good polo and good trail riding, too. And there ARE people who compete responsibly in dressage, reining, etc.

How to achieve softness and a supple horse is germane to the thread. Defining what constitutes "softness" and one's goals in riding also is important. Heck, defining what someone means by "collection" is important, there being a lot of different ideas about it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

ok , Smilie, 
just watched those videos on CA in reining. they ARE better than others I've seen. that is so nice to see. the horses arent as behind the vertical as others. I WANT to see him riding fairly.


that buttermilk one is really lovely. 

I still don't like the way he trains, but I'll give him credit for riding in those videos being better than in the others. 

what I'm saying, is that I can understand that reining is a speciallized discipline and should be considered as such. 
it still doesn't change my feelings about using the techniques he uses, for everyday horses.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

@tinyliny

Just to clarify (in case it was the videos I posted that you were referring to), the world champion horse is not being ridden by CA. I posted him for comparison to CA's buckskin in the next video. I definitely think CA did a better job riding the buckskin than some other videos of his other horses I've seen.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

oh. I see. I didn't look carefully at the human. just thought you were showing me more of CA's riding. am trying to stay open minded


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I am becoming more and more confused as to how a thread that was started by someone who is clearly riding in 'English style' and asking for advise on achieving collection has been sidetracked into discussions on CA, reining, western training and now showing bad examples of dressage training and turning it into a dressage v western reining argument - to prove what?
If you want to discuss CA then start a thread about him
If you want to discuss reining and training for that discipline then start a thread about it
If you want to debate English training v western training then start a thread about that
This thread is going to a whole new level of ridiculousness


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I am becoming more and more confused as to how a thread that was started by someone who is clearly riding in 'English style' and asking for advise on achieving collection has been sidetracked into discussions on CA, reining, western training and now showing bad examples of dressage training and turning it into a dressage v western reining argument - to prove what?
> If you want to discuss CA then start a thread about him
> If you want to discuss reining and training for that discipline then start a thread about it
> If you want to debate English training v western training then start a thread about that
> This thread is going to a whole new level of ridiculousness


Well, on that I agree, and why I suggested taking comments on the CA videos to the thread started by Sorrelhorse
I admitted my mistake in posting those videos on that English thread in the first place, which never was intended to be used by the OP, as she is not training a reiner, but merely to show the concepts of a soft horse
There remains the fact that certain training aspects that are discipline specific, and if you never ride in those disciplines, then you use whatever degree of flexion you need, for how that end result, far as a competitive horse in THAT discipline
If you ride in those disciplines and have any question as to whether they are correct or not, you take enough clinics from enough well known trainers int hat discipline to both know what is industry accepted and used, and methods that even those in that industry speak out against.
The spur stop in western pl training by some, is one example, as is rolkur used by some in dressage training.
Perhaps fellow reiners think CA is taking that lateral flexion to an extreme, and when that becomes a negative by those training that type of horse, spoken out against, it has validity
I posted as to what is not desirable in dressage, just to show that there are negatives IN EVERY discipline, and thus to set 'dressage' as the unquestionable example of flawless riding and training at all times, is simply also not valid
Before people start knocking other disciplines, they need to look deeply into their own, and perhaps have little bit of an open mind
No I do not like everything I see in reining, and have there been reining trainers I would never send a horse to? Definitely yes, but that can be said of any trainer in any discipline
I would never ride in a mechanical hackamore, yet I know they are used in jumping, and where perhaps they are needed for control
I trained many horses over the years where I did very little lateral flexion, beyond tying their head around briefly to each side, while encouraging the horse to follow the direction of is nose, versus just standing there, leaning on the bit
At the same time, I have seen many reiners warm up, using that lateral flexion, just to check the responsiveness of the horse, or to loosen them up


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I just can't really grasp how so many people seem totally against having a horse that broke and soft.

As though it's killing them by bending their heads around. 

I posted a big long thing but I guess this is the short version, how does anyone see it as a bad thing that you can put the horses head wherever you want, whenever you want?

I don't get it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I haven't posted here because I didnt' want to be a wet blanket. it's your place to celebrate this colt and his trainer, not for me to dis him.

I thought it best to start a seperate thread to discuss the concepts in useing flexions as a training tool, in a general sense, without it coming off as just being down on CA.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

bsms said:


> "_Have you ever ridden a reiner , with those expectations of lightness?_"
> 
> Nope. But I don't see how this can be good riding or reflect good training:
> 
> ...


Good GOD! That poor horse is ridden behind the vertical the WHOLE time. I just lost respect for CA's riding a hundredfold! Definitely NOT the way to produce a truly light, "collected" and willing partner, IMO.

YIKES!


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Smiley, one of the reasons some English threads go out of control, as you referred to, is because you come to English threads with a bit of a chip on your shoulder and will not budge from your preconceptions.

You said;
*...Surely there is no need to show the dressage blue tongue video, or go down that path!
*

The very fact that you continue to refer to this incident, when on several occasions I have explained to you that this sad incident resulted from the horse accidentally getting his tongue BETWEEN the bits (and not soley because of rollkur) shows your refusal to accept how this happened. The bad part was how long it took the rider to notice this, and fix it, which he did.

To continue to refer to this incident, as if it epitomizes dressage, is why some of us have developed a bit of a chip in simply reading your posts.

The OP came here with a horse with a common problem. Only careful riding and consitent training under the eye of a good trainer will make this fix and *easy* one. To offer reining advice, as good as it is, will help to create a reining horse. Sorry, but these two disciplines are very different in their approach and seek to produce a very different product. Seeing that CA video only served to show me what a big difference it seems to be.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Allison your posts deserves more than a 'like' 
Well explained and absolutely spot on


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I think this thread should be put out of its misery, poor OP was asking questions about riding English style, in her new English saddle, I'm not sure how we further anyone's understanding of that by pulling every other discipline into it and turning it into yet another lady dog fest of whose discipline is 'light and soft' it is getting very very old guys.

I was going to say we all agree on the basics, but then of course we don't, and that is OK, what is getting increasingly NOT OK is this sort of thread......frankly it's getting boring.


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## Colby Jack Seige (Feb 1, 2016)

Golden Horse said:


> I think this thread should be put out of its misery, poor OP was asking questions about riding English style, in her new English saddle, I'm not sure how we further anyone's understanding of that by pulling every other discipline into it and turning it into yet another lady dog fest of whose discipline is 'light and soft' it is getting very very old guys.
> 
> I was going to say we all agree on the basics, but then of course we don't, and that is OK, what is getting increasingly NOT OK is this sort of thread......frankly it's getting boring.


THANK YOU!!! Jeez I woke up yesterday and this thread had gone from 3 pages to 8 pages??????? I think we got my question covered guys.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Allison Finch said:


> Good GOD! That poor horse is ridden behind the vertical the WHOLE time. I* just lost respect for CA's riding a hundredfold*! Definitely NOT the way to produce a truly light, "collected" and willing partner, IMO.
> 
> YIKES!



where have you been all this time?


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