# Worst ride ever... training issues... blah/rant



## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Yesterday I tried taking Lacey on this loop trail that I discovered and it was the worst ever.
It was raining (which she hates) so I should probably give her a little credit but she was impossible to control.
Towards the end of the ride I found her bracing her head against my hands and me with my arms completely tight, holding her back. I tried giving her more rein (so she couldn't brace) and relaxing my body more because in analyzing myself I realized that I was super stiff. She did respond well to me loosening up, for about 2 seconds. Then, she made use of the extra rein by starting to trot faster and faster. I was finally able to rein her in from that (we were riding mostly on asphalt and because of the rain, a ORS wouldn't have been ideal) but not without a bunch of head flipping and snorting.
I tried to get her attention by pulling her head around to my foot on each side (that generally works when she gets worked up) but she'd calm down for 2 seconds, then be back to trying to run off with me. I realize that I started doing that too late (I started pulling her head around after she really started trying to run off, I should have started back when she started getting fast) and that's probably a large part of my failure with that method. And, since we're riding in the road, there really wasn't enough room to reliably do that whenever she got fast so sometimes she got away with it, sometimes she didn't.

I don't know. I'm just super frustrated with her. I was riding her in her cross-under bitless bridle thingy but I'm thinking that next time I might put her in her pelham and have a rein for the snaffle and rein for the curb just so that I can get her back under control via the curb, if needed, instead of just relying on her good will. 
I'm mad that I have to increase bit power, but what am I going to do? I have no arena so I can't really school her and the trails I have to ride on are so narrow that what can be accomplished on the trail is limited.

I think it's mostly that she really wants to do more than walk (we've been trotting/cantering maybe once every 3 rides and she LOVES running) so she's frustrated and energetic. Her favorite trail riding speed is a fast trot where she's covering ground like crazy, but with riding on asphalt, trotting isn't prime.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

get her off the trail, circles and figure 8's around trees and obstacles, make her think. On the trail as soon as she breaks the gait you want, go in a circle, repeat. If she isnt super stubborn she'll get the hint. My appaloosa was stupid stubborn, If I hadnt finally given up and sold him I probably still be in the woods somewhere going in circles.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Listen, I'm not 100% sold on all of Clinton Anderson's training methods. HOWEVER, you could really use his basic training DVD. I've been watching his OTTB retraining programs--the horse, "Tricky Warrior" was only raced before he bought him to train. As of the last program the horse is not trying to set the pace and actually is a little on the lazy side--still reactive to a whip. THIS is what you want your Appy to do. Trail riding is for horses that listen under saddle. I cringe when I think that your horse may do something stupid and you get hurt--it sounds like you are riding alone--please reconsider that. I have a friend who was working her horse, at home, got thrown and had her hip broken, then dragged herself back to house to call for help. I didn't think I'd ever get hurt when I was thrown and had my arm broken. Check his site out.


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## THN (Oct 11, 2011)

Sounds like she has a lot of energy and not a lot of release. What kind of pasture time does she get? do you have a space open enough to lunge or even ride for that matter. Who cares if it's a proper arena your front yard will do. work on some maneuvers that make her think. sounds like she's board and just wants to go.

Also, please don't use the curb because you think you need a harsher bit. go back to a plain old loose-ring or d-ring snaffle and work things out with that.


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## TwistedWire (Oct 31, 2011)

So what bit were you using today? I'm not a fan of needing a curb because eventually the horse will run through that as well.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I know how you feel with your horse wanting to run. My TB gets the same way once the temperature gets down to 40 or below. At that point, walking is just not in the cards, at least not until some cantering or trotting has occurred. I also ride alone a lot. Sometimes you just have to meet your horse half way and let them blow off some energy. Do you have anywhere else you can ride that does not involve roads? Sounds like you exercised very good common sense during your frustrating ride and at least got home safe.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Joe4d said:


> get her off the trail, circles and figure 8's around trees and obstacles, make her think. On the trail as soon as she breaks the gait you want, go in a circle, repeat. If she isnt super stubborn she'll get the hint. My appaloosa was stupid stubborn, If I hadnt finally given up and sold him I probably still be in the woods somewhere going in circles.


I guess this isn't obvious in my post, but where I ride (this is true for most of Oregon, actually), it's rare that you're riding through a forest and able to actually go off the trail. Most of the areas I ride in (other than roads) are made up of a skinny little hiking trail with tall bushes and other brush, mixed with fir trees, on either side so there really isn't a way to get off the trail at any given time. I would love to have the option of getting off the trail and if I did, boy, I would use it to my advantage! :lol: 
Yesterday, by the time she was really acting up, we were going past a cemetery that I could easily have used to get her attention back. Only problem? They were having a funeral and I didn't really think they needed the distraction of a crazy horse. hahaha
I will give the figure 8 idea a try on the paved trail we go on though (it's wider and while I'd have to stop for other people I wouldn't have to worry about cars or anything). A serpentine would probably also help her relax... I will definitely give that a try.



Corporal said:


> Listen, I'm not 100% sold on all of Clinton Anderson's training methods. HOWEVER, you could really use his basic training DVD. I've been watching his OTTB retraining programs--the horse, "Tricky Warrior" was only raced before he bought him to train. As of the last program the horse is not trying to set the pace and actually is a little on the lazy side--still reactive to a whip. THIS is what you want your Appy to do. Trail riding is for horses that listen under saddle. I cringe when I think that your horse may do something stupid and you get hurt--it sounds like you are riding alone--please reconsider that. I have a friend who was working her horse, at home, got thrown and had her hip broken, then dragged herself back to house to call for help. I didn't think I'd ever get hurt when I was thrown and had my arm broken. Check his site out.


I've tried CA methods with her before and they just make her worse.  Either I'm not doing them right (a possibility) or they really do worry her. 
She spent her formative riding years with some people who really pushed her around a lot (I would say "abused" but they didn't starve her or anything, they just bullied her and didn't know how to treat a prey animal) so when she gets in a situation where there's pressure, she generally shuts down completely. And she shuts down when I've done CA stuff with her...so I don't know.
Speaking of shutting down, today when I went out to feed her, she acted very much like she does after she's shut down. Kind of "apologetic" and very needy so I wonder if maybe that's what happened yesterday, just in a different way than she usually shows (usually shutting down = she rears, backs up crazily, bucks, etc).

I appreciate your concern and I would LOVE to be able to ride with other people. I feel unsafe when she's behaving like that and I'm by myself as well. However, I board alone and the only other horses nearby (share Lacey's fence line) aren't ridden much, if ever (I've never seen their owners). I try to stay as safe as possible by riding in areas people pass through on a regular basis and I don't go trail blazing just for funnsies, but I completely understand the concern. 



THN said:


> Sounds like she has a lot of energy and not a lot of release. What kind of pasture time does she get? do you have a space open enough to lunge or even ride for that matter. Who cares if it's a proper arena your front yard will do. work on some maneuvers that make her think. sounds like she's board and just wants to go.
> 
> Also, please don't use the curb because you think you need a harsher bit. go back to a plain old loose-ring or d-ring snaffle and work things out with that.


She has 24/7 turnout on a 3 acre pasture.  
The thing is that there isn't even flat land I could ride on if I wanted to (I have no issue "creating" a sort of arena where there is none). Her pasture is extremely hilly and it's next to impossible to ride on. I have tried riding on it but the most we can do is just walk from point A to point B which is hardly expending her energy. I've tried trotting up the hills but I'm just not good enough of a rider to stay with her as she lurches through this pothole and that pothole on her way up the hill. haha I guess I could try that again and work on staying with her becuase that's obviously something I need work on...
My front yard is very marshy when it gets wet so the last time I rode on it, we created all these potholes that have my family wanting to kill me... 
I do lunge her quite often, probably 2-4 times a week. That does get a lot of her energy out, but I worry about the impact all that lunging is having on her almost 27 year old joints, you know? And her mind needs a lot of stimulation as well, which the lunging doesn't help with. :/
Part of my problem yesterday was that I hadn't lunged in her a while (she had been ridden in a lesson on Friday but that was only for 45 minutes and the girl was just walking around so no real energy expenditure there) and I just hopped on and expected her to walk. I should have lunged her first or let her run somewhere before expecting her behave well.

The thing is that she can't have a normal snaffle in her mouth. Since she's a gray, she has gray horse melanomas that have take over the corners of her mouth rendering the sides of her mouth senseless. Since snaffles warn using the corners of the mouth, she gets no warning until the bit starts closing in on her tongue which creates all sorts of behavioral issues since she's terrified of the sudden pressure in her mouth (with good reason, I suppose!). So, to be ridden, she has to be in either a bitless bridle, a unbroken curb or a ported -non broken- snaffle. And since ported, non broken, snaffles are pretty expensive (especially to get for a 27 year old horse who usually goes bitless) and hard to come by, I don't have one. But, I do have a ported pelham that I can attach a rein to the snaffle portion and a rein to the curb portion so I can mostly use the snaffle and only use the curb if it's really needed. 
I usually ride her bitless, and I was yesterday, but she knows how to evade the bitless-ness if she wants (which she usually doesn't want to) and no amount of retraining is going to cause her to forget what she knows, I think. Usually she's fine bitless but some days she gets a hair up her butt, or something, and decides to not be fine.



TwistedWire said:


> So what bit were you using today? I'm not a fan of needing a curb because eventually the horse will run through that as well.


I was riding her bitless. And I thoroughly agree with you.
Copy and pasted from last response:

The thing is that she can't have a normal snaffle in her mouth. Since she's a gray, she has gray horse melanomas that have take over the corners of her mouth rendering the sides of her mouth senseless. Since snaffles warn using the corners of the mouth, she gets no warning until the bit starts closing in on her tongue which creates all sorts of behavioral issues since she's terrified of the sudden pressure in her mouth (with good reason, I suppose!). So, to be ridden, she has to be in either a bitless bridle, a unbroken curb or a ported -non broken- snaffle. And since ported, non broken, snaffles are pretty expensive (especially to get for a 27 year old horse who usually goes bitless) and hard to come by, I don't have one. But, I do have a ported pelham that I can attach a rein to the snaffle portion and a rein to the curb portion so I can mostly use the snaffle and only use the curb if it's really needed. 
I usually ride her bitless, and I was yesterday, but she knows how to evade the bitless-ness if she wants (which she usually doesn't want to) and no amount of retraining is going to cause her to forget what she knows, I think. Usually she's fine bitless but some days she gets a hair up her butt, or something, and decides to not be fine.

I don't like the idea of riding her in a curb just because either, that's the reason behind the pelham with 2 reins - so that I can choose to use the curb only if it's really needed. 



MyBoyPuck said:


> I know how you feel with your horse wanting to run. My TB gets the same way once the temperature gets down to 40 or below. At that point, walking is just not in the cards, at least not until some cantering or trotting has occurred. I also ride alone a lot. Sometimes you just have to meet your horse half way and let them blow off some energy. Do you have anywhere else you can ride that does not involve roads? Sounds like you exercised very good common sense during your frustrating ride and at least got home safe.


I'm glad you get it!  Well, glad might not be the right word since it stinks, but I'm glad that I'm not alone. 
I think my other mistake was that I hadn't lunged her or ridden her in a few days so she had all this pent up energy that I was trying to make her just hold down.
There's this big hill at the beginning of our trail rides (when we're still in the forest) that she really has to work at getting up, maybe next time I want to take her on this loop (which will be soon since I don't want yesterday to become the rule for that route) I'll have her run up it first, then we can walk down and continue on our ride.
To get to any trails we have ride through a neighborhood and on roads. However, there are a few trails that I can go on that don't contact roads. The bummer thing is that Lacey knows those trails backwards and forwards so they don't really mentally stimulate her (which is something she really needs). They are great for running on though. :grin:
However, the best one for tiring her out is pretty abandoned and I don't really like taking her up there because who knows who is up there (I have to get off and walk her back down-it's too steep to ride) and because if I got hurt up there, no one would find me for some time, not to be morbid or anything.
Thanks! I tried, I'm just glad neither one of us died. 
I mean, she was retired to the pasture for life from ages 10-23 because she was behaving like this on wet pavement (probably worse since the way I heard it, the guy who was riding her was "beating" her to make her go forward), went down, broke her riders leg, and really scraped up her hind legs badly. I figure that she probably reared (since she came to me with a serious rearing problem - it's very very mild now) and flipped but I don't know for sure.




That loop (I was trying the idea of "go in a loop so your horse kinda doesn't know when you're headed for home") goes "pasture, neighborhood, long stretch of woods, large neighborhood, short road, long stretch of walking trail -asphalted-, road, neighborhood, neighborhood, short stretch of woods, road, neighborhood, pasture" if anyone wanted a better mental picture of what we were doing.
Also, that loop does contact with a park. I need to go in there and see if there's space to ride because that could be a viable option for getting a little work under her belt.

Lacey is just "a lot of horse" and at times that can be intimidating. haha

I really appreciate the advice and support, guys. It's making me feel better and helping me think of how I can do better next time.


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## pintophile (May 18, 2011)

I have no real advice, I just wanted to say that when she starts going fast and you feel the need to hold her in, start using one rein. When you pull both reins, it just gives her something to brace against and it's going to teach her to brace. Just ride with one rein at a time. It takes two to get in a tug of war, and it actually does help to slow them down a lot.

I don't think this will work since she's so hot, but it's worth a try: whenever my younger horse starts wanting to jig and get fast, I discovered that it really really helps to take her head to one side and sort of walk her on a 45 degree angle down the trail for a few steps. I mean, if I bent her head to the right, I'd put my right leg on and push her butt to the left so she's walking with a bend. After a few steps, I'll let her out again into a normal walk, and I don't know why, but for some reason it really does help and she does calm down after it.

You said she likes to run: do you do a lot of fast stuff with her? I'm wondering if you took her out for a long ride and just made her trot or canter the entire way, no stopping, would that help? Do you think it would teach her to conserve her energy and calm down, or is she just too energetic and would she learn to anticipate it even more?

Anyways, good luck, and stay safe.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

_Trail riding is for horses that listen under saddle.

_You know, to me trail riding is the "real world" and arenas are for people who like to show or are afraid to leave the arena. :wink: Back when horses were used for work, I doubt they spent very much time riding in circles unless the person was wealthy and able to show. But every other horse I bet was expected to work out in the "real world."

My Fox Trotter is very much like Lacey (minus the rearing). Some days she is perfect and awesome, and other days I am lucky I don't get dumped (usually due to spooking, but she also throws in a buck or flying leap now and then). 

Maybe if I had an arena I would feel differently, but because I don't, I do ALL my training/riding on the trail. 

Maybe I am a big meanie, but so many people are afraid to use a curb and I don't know why. Well, they claim it is for the horse, but isn't control of the horse important for the rider too? I have never seen an english Pelham with a ton or leverage so as long as it doesn't have a cruel mouthpiece it is about the mildest curb you can get. It wouldn't hurt to try it. I use everything from a snaffle to an argentine snaffle/pelham to a regular western curb on my horses. I go back and forth between them. It is a myth that you will ruin your horse in a curb and not be able to go back to a snaffle. I do it all the time.

And unfortunately, short of burning off energy before you turn for home, I really don't have a solution for you. They tend to get better over time with lots and lots of mileage, but at her age she is who she is and will probably not change until she has one foot in the grave. I had a 24 yr old Arabian who was spry and energetic right up until he colicked and died. 

So I would chock it up to a rainy, energetic day and work on riding some hills and some controlled speed next time you go out and then ask (see) if you can get her to walk going home. I would not be afraid to try the pelham (but that's just me, I learned to ride in curbs so they don't worry me like other folks seem to worry about them).

And about 50% of the time I ride alone too. Before I met my current best friend I almost always rode alone. Sometimes if the horse is too energetic it's all you can do just to stay on and control the situation as best you can. You can't always shut them down when they get hyper. But in my experience the next ride is usually better. 

PS. Something I like to do to play with their mind is when they get hyper going home, turn them around and start heading back out again. Then turn for home again, go a little ways, and go back out again. After a while they don't know if they are coming or going. I don't know how much it helps, but it makes me feel smarter than the horse. :lol: 


​


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

pintophile said:


> I have no real advice, I just wanted to say that when she starts going fast and you feel the need to hold her in, start using one rein.
> 
> I don't think this will work since she's so hot, but it's worth a try: whenever my younger horse starts wanting to jig and get fast, I discovered that it really really helps to take her head to one side and sort of walk her on a 45 degree angle down the trail for a few steps. I mean, if I bent her head to the right, I'd put my right leg on and push her butt to the left so she's walking with a bend.
> 
> ...


I tried that, only using one rein when she starts to pull, today and it worked really well! Good idea. 

I've tried bending her sideways before but she just uses it as an opportunity to dance around because "OMG!! Something different is being asked of me!! OMG!!!". hahaha

I do try to do some fast stuff with her, not a while bunch though. I worry that since she does LOVE to run that she'll run herself so hard that she'll either hurt herself or she'll be sore for days, especially at her age. Making her run and run and run just seems to get her tired but not teach her anything about being less "go-y". She has learned to canter slowly, through me making her run for longer than she wants, which used to be a completely foreign concept so yay for that! haha

And thanks, I think I need it. :lol:

Thanks trailhorserider! I appreciate your view on things. 



*Update: *
Today I changed her bit over to the pelham, got separate reins on the snaffle part (which, as it turns out, isn't really a true snaffle since it uses poll pressure, but I can direct rein with it) and the curb part, and set out. 
I decided to take her up this giant hill (after the trail head, it's maybe a mile up at a very steep incline, then another mile at less of an incline, then we turn around to go back) because she can trot up and it makes her work really hard since the hill is so steep. So we trotted and cantered up the hill (she was begging to stop by the top, HAH! Take that horse!). Then, once we started heading back, she started being a little jerk. So, thankfully the trail up there is really wide, I tried the figure eight thing and it actually worked quite well. She settled down to like a 6 out of 10 after that so we continued back.
Once we got to the bottom of the hill (I have to get off to go down the really steep part of the hill) and I remounted, she decided that since my dog had gone on ahead, she "needed" to catch up to him. So she started doing her little trotting away with me thing, but since I had the pelham, I just grabbed on both sets of reins and hauled back (I would have done it more gently but she needs a serious wake up call about attempting to run away with me). Of course, she did her little "OMG! Poneh is dying! Make it stop! Ok, you did! Now I will trot off again!" thing so I eventually just sat there and hauled back on her. She flipped her head around and protested quite a bit, but I released as soon as she stopped moving her legs and guess what? 
After that, when I told her to walk on, she walked off COMPLETELY calmly, like she hadn't just been throwing a major fit. Like, she was literally being a 2 out of 10.
I let her canter up the next hill because she was completely calm to the base of it, and she even allowed me to check her speed mid-canter when my dog decided that running directly in front of us was a great idea! Then we walked completely calmly through the neighborhood to her pasture, no worries.

It was a really good ride, all in all. I tried to let her run as much as possible and she really enjoyed herself. And even though she had some sassy moments, I was able to control her. 
I feel like switching bits was definitely the right choice since there was never a moment where I was out of control, unlike our usual rides where I spend about 90% of the time in control. And of course, I know how to use this bit so it's not like I'm just someone, out there, being all crazy with a bit they don't understand. I'm also using a short set of reins for the snaffle part and a long set for the curb part so that when I'm solely relying of the snaffle part, I'm not connecting with the curb at all.
Hopefully, at some point we'll be able to switch back to bitless or her usual -extremely gentle- curb, but for now the pelham is our new best friend.
She was also salivating really nicely in it which tells me that she liked it. 

But anyway, thank you all again for helping me think through that last ride and fixing the things that needed fixing.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

You are a very smart rider and work through problems very well. Congrats on you much better ride!


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Thanks Puck!
I hope your boy decides to cooperate with you this winter as well!  How is it that riders that want to be relatively sedate always end up with the horses that don't want to be sedate? It must be a curse. :lol:


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Luckily mine only turns into a lunatic under 20 degrees! I don't know why you keep landing the fun ones!


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

I thought I'd update again for you, lovely helpful people. 

We went on our third ride in the Pelham yesterday (I haven't been able to ride nearly as much as I want due to my school schedule and now the removal of DST) and it went SO well. 
She got a little jiggy at points but then I just engaged the curb rein and she immediately started walking calmly (I think someone is figuring out that I finally have her number! *does a happy dance*). I also tried to let her trot/run as much as possible, which she obviously loved. I've decided that I'm going to try to let her run up pretty much every hill we come to (unless the ground is asphalt or she starts anticipating too much) because running uphill is like 3 times as much work as just running on a flat stretch! Hah! Take that horse!

I haven't attempted going on the loop I went on that caused the OP yet, but I think we'll do that soon. I'm kinda waiting until she's completely figured out that there is no point getting sassy in the Pelham because I can and will shut her down. Yesterday we just did a loop through a neighborhood at the end of our "running" trail.

Also, just thought of this, I don't know why I hadn't thought of this before, but all the trails we can ride on eventually end in neighborhoods set up into blocks -- why am I not using those blocks as a loop at the end of the trail so we're not just turning around on the trail and encouraging her "I wanna turn around here and go home!" behavior? Going on a loop through a neighborhood would also help her mind think more (something she desperately needs) since neighborhoods are highly dynamic...

Thanks again for all the help you guys gave me. You really helped me think outside the box. Now I feel so much more confident about riding her because I know that no matter what, I can control her whether she likes it or not, instead of just kinda praying that I'll survive. Haha!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I found this thread quite interesting. How you thought it through and all. Pretty inspiring.

I was curious, what parts of the CA methods did you find counter productive? I have a friend who is training her horse with these methods, working with a CA trainer, and I feel that some of what they are doing is really making the horse worse, not better. But everyone speaks so highly of CA, I feel like a grinch to say this.


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

That is great that you had such a quick turn-around by using these new methods after getting the advice & changing bits. Good for you for thinking "outside" the box & working your horse in a way that didn't stress her out. I can't wait to move to my new community & explore the neighborhood on horseback.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> I was curious, what parts of the CA methods did you find counter productive? I have a friend who is training her horse with these methods, working with a CA trainer, and I feel that some of what they are doing is really making the horse worse, not better. But everyone speaks so highly of CA, I feel like a grinch to say this.


Aw shucks. Anytime. :lol: I'm just grateful I got the advice that I got cuz it really started me thinking in ways that I hadn't previously.

I was probably doing the CA stuff wrong (now there's a bone I have to pick with BNTs) but I found that it made Lacey a whole lot more distant from me and more reactive. She's a very calm mare about 75% of the time (the other 25% she's just bonkers, hahaha) so the stuff that he had as "easy" stuff (I don't remember the correct term) were generally crazy easy for her, like the desensitizing to the rope, that sort of thing.
But as soon as I stepped up the pressure, she'd freak out and become completely unhinged. Like the Lunging for Respect, that made her go completely off the wall. She didn't seem to understand the release from driving pressure concept, which may be an innate personality trait since I have never seen her back down from a challenge she thinks she can win. But she'd run and run and run and fall, hop back up, and run and run and end up breathing so hard that I was sure she was about to kick the bucket (and I'd have her stop because, well, I didn't want a dead Lacey!). Then, the next day when I'd see her, she'd behave in the really weird/half lost/needy way she does after she's really had a mental breakdown. Then, the next time I'd lunge her she would immediately go on the defensive and start running and running and running to get away from me, which broke my heart (and lunging was and is one of her most favorite "bonding" type things to do). It was just things like that where she ended up seemingly scared out of her mind and I couldn't, in good conscious, try to continue this technique everyone seemed to love because it seemed to me like it was really hurting her inside.
There were other things but the Lunging for Respect got the biggest negative response and that's really why I stopped.

Of course, I'm sure that CA has a place and I've certainly seen his methods work for some horses but my theory is that for horses like Lacey who are more relationship focused it just makes them scared that the relationship might be broken. That sounds super anthropomorphic but Lacey, though she is most definitely a horse, really does act like that - call it what you want. 

:lol: Those are my CA experiences and more than you ever asked for. haha


I agree and thanks, cacowgirl! That's one of the things I love best about Lacey, once you find the correct button to push and push it, she "transforms" into such a better horse. I kinda look at her like a food pyramid or something, we started at the top level (10, three years ago) with a jointed bit and ill fitting saddle, once those were fixed, we dropped down to like 8, daily lunging took it down to 7, Mare Magic took it down to 6, etc etc. Now I think we're at probably a 4.5 :lol: 
Neighborhoods are the best to ride in! You're gonna love it. Basically every time I ride in one I hear people hollering to each other "Oh my gosh! Come here quick! There's a horse outside!!!!" and little girls come running out of houses like Lacey and I are delivering candy, or something, because they want to pet her. It's the best. And so great for desensitizing!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Lunging for respect. Do you mean Lacey hated the way you are supposed to stop and turn the horse by putting pressure on the hindquarters so that the horse swings them out and ends up facing you? Instead of doing this, she chose to continue to run in a circle? 
I ask because you also said that you do lunge her to take off her "edge", but I am now assuming that you do it a differnent way than what you were doing in the "lunging for respect" method.

I have not seen his videos, only watched my friend work with her trainer, so I do not know what is "correct" or not. I don't mean to sound pushy. Just curious. I know that so many people use his methods (as much as any NH trainer can claim training methods as "his", seeing as how they originate much father back than any living person today), but I don't personally find they resonate with me.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Hmmm, I'm not entirely sure. It was quite a while ago and I've really forgotten what we were really trying to do, if you know what I mean? I think it was the pressure on the hindquarters thing but I'm not sure. Tomorrow I'll take my CA book to school and go over it to see if I can remember, then if I do I'll post for you. 

I do lunge her to take off the edge and that was probably confusing to her since I was telling her one thing some of the time and another thing the other part of the time... Poor horse! haha I also had a lot less of an understanding of body language that works with her (too much and she shuts down, too little and she doesn't respond and the line separating the two is very narrow) so that was probably another area of downfall...

One very traumatizing time with this, for both of us, happened in the round pen though and I never lunged her to take the edge off in there... 

Ah, now I'm rambling. No more nearly midnight posting for me! haha
And I know what you mean, you're making me curious too!  I will definitely go look in my book to see what I see/remember.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I'm glad things are going better. Sounds like the pelham may be just what she needs. Some people love bitless bridles. I have several of them. They seem to work great for really laid back bomb-proof horses, but with a really spirited horse it seems like it is really easy to hurt their nose before you successfully communicate that they need to slow down.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Great thread. Great work.

One thing I will say though, if you are working her uphill, be sure to work her downhill as well or she will end up lop-sided. When I was a youngster, we rode our horses on a ski-hill. I was always scared to trot and canter downhill so my horse ended up very front heavy. I guess she would always pull instead of push on the up and more than likely I had all my weight forward because I didn't know any better. But honestly, once you get the hang of trotting and cantering downhill, it's a great tool as well.


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