# What type of bay is he? Picture heavy!



## LikeIke17

Looks like a plain old bay to me.


----------



## NdAppy

He's brown.


----------



## verona1016

Definitely brown.


----------



## BubblesBlue

I had the same type of issue with my horse Ruester. He is a brown.
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/ruesters-variation-colors-128126/


----------



## Saranda

Okay, as I am a total beginner in colors - what exactly differs bay from brown? What makes one decide (besides genetic tests  ) that a horse is definitely one or other? For example, this Wikipedia article - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_(horse) - states that brown is just a darker variation of bay, but genetically they are all bay.


----------



## Clava

He's a normal bay (brown with black points), he is not a bright bay (lighter than him) or a dark bay (darker than him)


----------



## Poseidon

Wikipedia sucks nearly all the time. That's a common fact. The information is posted by whoever wants to put information and then is just moderated by the Wikipedia staff, but not entirely verified. 

Bay = Black + Agouti (A)

Brown = Black + Agouti (At)

Agouti restricts black to specific points (mane, tail, legs, ears, nose). The difference in brown and bay is the two different variations of agouti. At is brown and will leave the "soft" areas of the horse lighter than the rest, ie, muzzle, behind the elbow, flank, around the eyes.



Clava said:


> He's a normal bay (brown with black points)


Brown is its own color, so saying "Brown with black points" does not make sense. Browns themselves can and do have black points.


----------



## Saranda

Thanks, Poseidon, you cleared some things up for me.


----------



## NdAppy

Aren't colors fun? lol


----------



## Ladybug2001

That is definitely bay.... Anyone that thinks that is brown should check up on the colors. Brown with black points, ears, legs, mane and tail, is bay..


----------



## Chiilaa

Ladybug2001 said:


> That is definitely bay.... Anyone that thinks that is brown should check up on the colors. Brown with black points, ears, legs, mane and tail, is bay..


"Bay" with paler colour in the soft points is Brown. If you want to start implying that people don't know what they are talking about, perhaps a bit of research on your own part is needed. Brown is a mutation of the same gene that causes bay, so they look very similar. However, they are different colours.


----------



## Ladybug2001

I know they are in a sense the same color, but that is a bay I am looking at. His sire is most definitely brown. I would like to see how you believe that horse is brown and not bay.


----------



## Chiilaa

Look at the soft parts of this horse. They are definitely not the same tone as the rest of the body. That is the biggest indication of brown, especially in winter coat. There is no way this horse can possibly be mistaken for bay in winter coat. Brown still has black points like a bay.


----------



## ThirteenAcres

Not to sound rude, though your statement is very rude, but on the same note, I'd like to see how you believe that horse to be bay. It is clearly brown. And perhaps a bit of research into the matter will clarify the genetics of brown vs. bay.

A brown horse can have black points, a black mane, tail, etc. Bays have a uniform coat. Those horses clearly are not.


----------



## waresbear

I get a kick out you color fanatics, what to call it, what color is it, blah, blah, like little kids arguing over the pretty colors of crayons in the box. Looks like a nice horse with a nice color to me. On the reddy brown black palatte, I would've called him a bay but I guess I would be wrong and I guess I wouldn't care.


----------



## BubblesBlue

Haha I know the feeling waresbear. I was told that my horse is a brown, not a bay. I don't really care though, it's registered on his paper that he was a bay and I'm stickin' to it. :lol:


----------



## Saranda

It doesn't really make any difference to me, I love him as he is, but it is somewhat fun to know.  And - he is registered as a bay, too.


----------



## Chiilaa

waresbear said:


> I get a kick out you color fanatics, what to call it, what color is it, blah, blah, like little kids arguing over the pretty colors of crayons in the box. Looks like a nice horse with a nice color to me. On the reddy brown black palatte, I would've called him a bay but I guess I would be wrong and I guess I wouldn't care.





> Haha I know the feeling waresbear. I was told that my horse is a brown, not a bay. I don't really care though, it's registered on his paper that he was a bay and I'm stickin' to it.
> 
> Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1579986#ixzz1zdNkw97D


I find both of these posts to be quite derogatory. Just because YOU aren't interested in the genetics behind colour, doesn't mean you have free license to speak down to those of us who do. If YOU don't want to know what colour YOUR horse is, don't post in this section. Us "color fanatics" might accidentally post something that has been scientifically proven (not just guess-timated by registry bodies that are decades behind any current research and haven't laid eyes on the horse or see the fluctuations of colour from season to season in said horse). If YOU don't want the education, that's fine. That's your choice. But speaking down to those who happen to know more than you in this one, small area of equine knowledge is pathetic. Don't care about colours? That's fine - don't post in the Colors and Genetics section of the forum.


----------



## SorrelHorse

Call off the hounds there :lol: Wares is joking.

Oh and thanks guys, tomorrow I am gonna have to have a close look at my ponies to see if they are brown or bay...-pout- :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Saranda

Thanks for the great input, guys - it is really educational and interesting, especially because color genetics is not a popular topic around here. For example, my geldings' sire is registered as a dark bay. But it is good to know. Snickers will be shocked to know that he, in fact, is brown, not bay.


----------



## waresbear

Sorry Chiilaa, I was just joking around to lighten the mood. I know, I know, i suck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThirteenAcres

waresbear said:


> Sorry Chiilaa, I was just joking around to lighten the mood. I know, I know, i suck!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's Canadian humor!! Very mysterious to we non-Canadian folk. XD

And thanks, mom, for scolding about our crayons! I never believed some of those colors were what the little paper called them either!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Clava

Poseidon said:


> Wikipedia sucks nearly all the time. That's a common fact. The information is posted by whoever wants to put information and then is just moderated by the Wikipedia staff, but not entirely verified.
> 
> Bay = Black + Agouti (A)
> 
> Brown = Black + Agouti (At)
> 
> Agouti restricts black to specific points (mane, tail, legs, ears, nose). The difference in brown and bay is the two different variations of agouti. At is brown and will leave the "soft" areas of the horse lighter than the rest, ie, muzzle, behind the elbow, flank, around the eyes.
> 
> 
> 
> Brown is its own color, so saying "Brown with black points" does not make sense. Browns themselves can and do have black points.


Of course brown is it's own "colour" but I was using it as just a colour to describe the horse. You can call it brown if you like, but most people will refer to it as a bay in the general understanding of the word and be happy being slightly technically wrong I am happy to be corrected, my horse is dark bay and my haflinger is chestnut although often called palomino by mistake:lol:


----------



## RosiePosie06

Thank the lord I can now explain the difference between bay and brown... No joke, that's always bugged me. I've always hated when I've seen a brown horse (with lighter parts) and people called it bay. Now I can explain the agouti thing and sound smart...

Althought I do have to say I love when a horse's coloring is brown with black points, despite whether the horse is bay or brown.


----------



## OwnedByAlli

**** I'm gonna have to chack if Alli is bay or brown now! Passported dark bay, but she varies with the seasons a little like the OP's... and her dam is registered bay and she most certianly is not-deffo chestnut! Ohh the joys of genetics!! 
Colour Genetics:
Interesting? Yes
Confusing? Deffinatly!!

IMO Thumbs up to those who can make sense of all the genes and alleles and stuff!!


----------



## verona1016

I understand the difference between bay (A), brown (At) and wild bay (A+), but I also think the terminology is less than clear.

If it were up to me, I'd say that all horses with agouti were bay, but then could be further classified by the type of agouti allele- classic bay for A, wild bay for A+, and something other than brown for At (seal bay, dark bay, black bay, or any of the many other names used "incorrectly" for brown).

I really don't know why the term "brown" was picked for At... it's confusing for horsepeople and outright nonsensical to non-horsepeople.


----------



## ThirteenAcres

I think to a lot of horse people with brown horses it becomes an issue of "but brown is so ordinary!". To non horse people, honestly I have friends call everything from my sorrels to bays simply "brown" because brown makes sense to them in any reddish-brown shade. 

I don't really understand why there is so much hesitation in accepting brown versus bay or even at times, hostility! Lol

But then, we all know horse people and their opinions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RosiePosie06

ThirteenAcres said:


> I think to a lot of horse people with brown horses it becomes an issue of "but brown is so ordinary!". To non horse people, honestly* I have friends call everything from my sorrels to bays simply "brown" because brown makes sense to them in any reddish-brown shade. *
> 
> I don't really understand why there is so much hesitation in accepting brown versus bay or even at times, hostility! Lol
> 
> *But then, we all know horse people and their opinions.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I just love everything you said here, haha. Non-horsey people think I'm crazy when I try to dumb down "sorrel" to "red". They think my horse is brown...And then horse people and their opinions. Haha I was just saying the other day, "I hate all horse people, except myself. And I'm sure every other horse person thinks the exact same thing."


----------



## redfox122194

I think he is a good looking BAY horse. He is clearly not brown in my opinion, and I think it is dumb of people yelling at each other over a color of a horse. Some think its brown, some think its bay.


----------



## Chiilaa

redfox122194 said:


> I think he is a good looking BAY horse. He is clearly not brown in my opinion, and I think it is dumb of people yelling at each other over a color of a horse. Some think its brown, some think its bay.


Care to share why you are so certain he isn't brown? Would love to see your reasons...


----------



## redfox122194

would you care to sare why you think hes brown


----------



## Chiilaa

If you read my posts in this thread, you will see my reasons. But don't let that prevent you from assuming that I don't know what I am talking about. I am merely looking for your reasons, since you seem so assured this horse is definitely not brown. Surely in most countries, the burden of proof rests with the accuser, right?


----------



## redfox122194

Like I have said, in my opinion he is a bay, a bay has black mane, tail, ears and feet. That is a fact. A brown horse doesn't have black tipped ears or feet. That too is a fact, anything else you want to learn today??


----------



## Chiilaa

redfox122194 said:


> Like I have said, in my opinion he is a bay, a bay has black mane, tail, ears and feet. That is a fact. A brown horse doesn't have black tipped ears or feet. That too is a fact, anything else you want to learn today??


I would love to see where you found the evidence to support this claim. Brown horses DO have black points. Brown is a mutation of the agouti gene, which bay is also a mutation of. So yes, they do have similarities. Just like wild bay restricts black differently to classic bay, so too does brown act differently. 

Brown can be distinguished from bay by the contrast of pale soft points to a darker body tone. Bay has no contrast, and is an even colour over the whole coat. Brown has a lot of seasonal variation in most cases, while bay has less.

You want facts, they are above. The gene causing brown HAS been isolated, and we CAN test for it. Maybe before you start declaring yourself the font of all colour information you should do some research and bring yourself out of the dark ages. Brown has been isolated for a few years now. Anything else YOU want to learn today?


----------



## Malice

Actually, with the backing of science when dealing with genetics, a horse with a genetic makeup saying brown my have black points (feet, mane, tail, etc). It's easy to tell the difference between a bay and brown, seeing as brown horses have 'soft points', those usually being the flank and muzzle. Learn something new everyday if you keep your mind open.


----------



## redfox122194

like I have said before, It is my opinion and no matter what you say I will always think im right. brown dose NOT have black points. Find a brown horse with black points and show me the blood test, then I might believe you. You have been VERY rude to people on here who say the horse is bay. You are making a fool of your self.


----------



## Poseidon

redfox122194 said:


> like I have said before, It is my opinion and no matter what you say I will always think im right. brown dose NOT have black points. Find a brown horse with black points and show me the blood test, then I might believe you. You have been VERY rude to people on here who say the horse is bay. You are making a fool of your self.


I actually found you to be rude, coming in here on your high horse and telling us what's what, when we have been the ones providing evidence of the genetic differences in two colors and our thoughts on the OP's horse.

However, if you would be so kind, a picture of what you believe to be a brown horse would be appreciated.


----------



## Chiilaa

Alas, you are making a fool of yourself, and of your "friend" in this thread too. I love e-knights, that need to join a forum to defend their friend.

Brown is real. It is a colour. It is scientifically proven. You can have an opinion on it if you want, but your opinion is wrong. Continue to hold your wrong opinion all you want, but know that you are wrong. I don't have a horse myself who has tested brown, but I have seen plenty that have. So before you come in here, all e-thugging in our faces, why don't you do something called "research". Maybe your opinion will change. 

I don't have an opinion on brown. I have facts, backed up by science. In this case, I happen to be right. Deal.


----------



## NdAppy

*cough* Redfox I think you need to take a look in the mirror there hun. Chiilaa most definitely knows what she is talking about. 

The "im right and your wrong becuase I said so" is so kindergarten and preschool it isn't funny. If you have to resort to comments like that I suggest stepping away from the internet for a while...

BTW those horses are brown. Browns can and do have black points as they are a variation of agouti which also causes bay... which their function is "to restrict black to the points." They just happen to do so in two different ways.


----------



## redfox122194

There you go, and Im not coming in here on a high horse, I am saying what I truly think is right.


----------



## Chiilaa

AHAHAHAHAHA!

You understand that horse is chestnut right? Do you actually know anything about colours or are you just here because your "friend" said someone was being mean to her on the internets?


----------



## NdAppy

:rofl: Both those horses are RED (aka chestnut/sorrel) and NOT brown. :rofl:


----------



## ThirteenAcres

redfox122194 said:


> like I have said before, It is my opinion and no matter what you say I will always think im right. brown dose NOT have black points. Find a brown horse with black points and show me the blood test, then I might believe you. You have been VERY rude to people on here who say the horse is bay. You are making a fool of your self.


Good grief. Like I said earlier, I just love how heated people get over the matter. OH GOD SOMEONE SAID MY HORSE IS BROWN. How will you ever live with such an ordinary sentence??

And the statement above proves exactly how ignorance continues to flourish. Believing something as a fact no matter the evidence that disproves it is, well truly, even beyond ignorance. It is willful stupidity.


----------



## NdAppy

Red fox go peruse this thread - http://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/badass-brown-92038/


----------



## Malice

...And I think it's good for people to voice what they believe is right, it makes the world go round and makes people strive to see what actually hold true, which side of the arguement comes out correct. Unfortunately the topic of your arguement has already been tested, and the facts laid out on the table. Many times, politely in my opinion, in this thread.


----------



## redfox122194

Who are you talking about?? I just wanted to prove to you a brown horse. Like I said before, you are being rude. You think im the only one thinking its a bay?? I feel im right and I know the colors of horses. I feel like im right and its my opinion. all i said was it looked like a bay to me, then you just to jump in and cut me down. Im defending my opinion.


----------



## ThirteenAcres

Also a big fan of the beautiful CHESTNUT/SORREL horses up there. Pretty reds.


----------



## Silent one

I guess I'm just from the old school, LOL! To me, that thar horse is a BAY and he will always be a BAY to me!


----------



## NdAppy

The pic you posted of a "brown" horse is a red or chestnut horse. NOT a brown. I don't know where you learned colors, but that sure as heck isn't brown.

Please, do tell us where your font of knowledge on colors comes from... We would love to know what outdated books you are looking at...


----------



## Chiilaa

I asked your reasons. You don't have any that prove it is a bay and not a brown. No one is saying that you shouldn't have an opinion. Just that unless you choose to research it more, your opinion will continue to be unsupported, and wrong. There is nothing wrong with being wrong, unless you choose to stick your fingers in your ears and shout "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" while the rest of you tell you the actual facts. Brown is not a generic colour when you speak of horses, it is a genetically distinct colour.


----------



## ThirteenAcres

redfox122194 said:


> Who are you talking about?? I just wanted to prove to you a brown horse. Like I said before, you are being rude. You think im the only one thinking its a bay?? I feel im right and I know the colors of horses. I feel like im right and its my opinion. all i said was it looked like a bay to me, then you just to jump in and cut me down. Im defending my opinion.


You're making remarks that are WRONG and on threads where people are asking for valid and educated information. You're helping give people incorrect information with no knowledge behind what you're even talking about. People here are devoted to learning and to knowing the genetics behind these colors.

Don't spread ignorance.


----------



## redfox122194

Like I said before, I say hes Bay, and im not the "rude" one. Im saying that hes a bay and haven't you even seen the tittle. "What type of "bay" is he" even the owner says hes a bay. You people are the rude ones who cut down peoples opinion.


----------



## Chiilaa

redfox122194 said:


> Like I said before, I say hes Bay, and im not the "rude" one. Im saying that hes a bay and haven't you even seen the tittle. "What type of "bay" is he" even the owner says hes a bay. You people are the rude ones who cut down peoples opinion.


Disagreeing with people's opinion using FACTS as proof is not cutting them down. Grow up a little and you will realise this.

Brown IS a variation of BAY. Which is what the OP wanted to know, if you care to read and not just start assuming you know everything. The OP wanted to know if her horse was normal bay, or if he was brown.


----------



## ThirteenAcres

redfox122194 said:


> Like I said before, I say hes Bay, and im not the "rude" one. Im saying that hes a bay and haven't you even seen the tittle. "What type of "bay" is he" even the owner says hes a bay. You people are the rude ones who cut down peoples opinion.


See, that's the difference in a child's response and an adult's. You come to this thread with the "I'm right, you're wrong, and I'll always be right because I say so" attitude whereas professionals have come in and said "I feel this horse is brown because of these traits and this is how a brown is related to bay", etc.

And still, you've not given a single "fact" to prove otherwise.


----------



## Chiilaa

Saranda said:


> Not so long ago I had a conversation in the chatroom, where several people stated different opinions whether my gelding is bay or brown. As I am horrible with colors, I would actually like to hear some more thoughts on this topic. *So which is he - bay or brown*, and what type exactly?


Straight from the original post. But you would have read that as well, not just the title, right?


----------



## Ladybug2001

Don't you think you all are being a little harsh to everyone? I left this thread because I didn't want to deal with exactly what is happening here. My "friend" here, didn't jump on here because I cryed momma to her saying that people were being "mean" to me on the internet. Don't you think that was a childish remark? I showed her Horseforum.com because she shares the same love of horses as I do, not because I wanted her to come on here and "prove" you all wrong. What she thinks is what she thinks, same as what I think is what I think. My thoughts of a brown horse would be, this.










Now, this is MY opinion. I don't give a flying frog whether it is red, black, gray, yellow or what. I just don't care. This is what I believe and that is all, when I go into genetics this year I'll be sure to pay attention to "brown" when it comes up. Got it? I wasn't trying to be rude on my first post, its what I think it is, that is all. The horse looks bay to me, so give it up on being rude to people that think the horse is bay. Especially that last post, "Don't spread ignorance." A little rough don't you think? 


This is all I had to say, I don't care what y'all post afterwards, I'm not interested in learning from people "over the internet" as you say it.


----------



## Chiilaa

And yes, you are the rude one. Sorry, but if you want to come in here and start telling people they don't know what they are talking about, they are wrong etc, and then not give a single shred of evidence to support your defamation, then yes, you are rude.


----------



## Chiilaa

Ladybug2001 said:


> Don't you think you all are being a little harsh to everyone? I left this thread because I didn't want to deal with exactly what is happening here. My "friend" here, didn't jump on here because I cryed momma to her saying that people were being "mean" to me on the internet. Don't you think that was a childish remark? I showed her Horseforum.com because she shares the same love of horses as I do, not because I wanted her to come on here and "prove" you all wrong. What she thinks is what she thinks, same as what I think is what I think. My thoughts of a brown horse would be, this.
> 
> Now, this is MY opinion. I don't give a flying frog whether it is red, black, gray, yellow or what. I just don't care. This is what I believe and that is all, when I go into genetics this year I'll be sure to pay attention to "brown" when it comes up. Got it? I wasn't trying to be rude on my first post, its what I think it is, that is all. The horse looks bay to me, so give it up on being rude to people that think the horse is bay. Especially that last post, "Don't spread ignorance." A little rough don't you think?
> 
> 
> This is all I had to say, I don't care what y'all post afterwards, I'm not interested in learning from people "over the internet" as you say it.


That horse is brown too. I would be interested what you learn in your horse genetic class, because it will be interesting to see what the institutions are doing to keep up with current research.

No one was rude, unless you consider disagreeing with you rude. In that case, you need to not come on the internet at all. There will always be people who disagree with you, and sometimes they are right and you are wrong.


----------



## Poseidon

Ladybug2001 said:


> This is all I had to say, I don't care what y'all post afterwards, I'm not interested in learning from people "over the internet" as you say it.


Then why are you on a forum? Most of this forum is about learning new things. It is asinine to use it if you have no intent on gaining knowledge.

And actually, I took an equine class last year (before switching my major entirely) and _argued_ on several occasions with my professor over browns and other colors, particularly modifiers. She knew quite a bit more about physiology and riding, but colors she was was required to teach, so it was half-assed.


----------



## Chiilaa

Ladybug2001 said:


> Don't you think you all are being a little harsh to everyone? I left this thread because I didn't want to deal with exactly what is happening here. My "friend" here, didn't jump on here because I cryed momma to her saying that people were being "mean" to me on the internet. Don't you think that was a childish remark? I showed her Horseforum.com because she shares the same love of horses as I do, not because I wanted her to come on here and "prove" you all wrong. What she thinks is what she thinks, same as what I think is what I think. My thoughts of a brown horse would be, this.


Then it's just a strange co-incidence that her first post is in this thread to defend your stance. Of course. Sorry. My mistake. I apologise.


----------



## ThirteenAcres

Ladybug2001 said:


> Don't you think you all are being a little harsh to everyone? I left this thread because I didn't want to deal with exactly what is happening here. My "friend" here, didn't jump on here because I cryed momma to her saying that people were being "mean" to me on the internet. Don't you think that was a childish remark? I showed her Horseforum.com because she shares the same love of horses as I do, not because I wanted her to come on here and "prove" you all wrong. What she thinks is what she thinks, same as what I think is what I think. My thoughts of a brown horse would be, this.
> 
> View attachment 105350
> 
> 
> 
> Now, this is MY opinion. I don't give a flying frog whether it is red, black, gray, yellow or what. I just don't care. This is what I believe and that is all, when I go into genetics this year I'll be sure to pay attention to "brown" when it comes up. Got it? I wasn't trying to be rude on my first post, its what I think it is, that is all. The horse looks bay to me, so give it up on being rude to people that think the horse is bay. Especially that last post, "Don't spread ignorance." A little rough don't you think?
> 
> 
> This is all I had to say, I don't care what y'all post afterwards, I'm not interested in learning from people "over the internet" as you say it.


No, actually, I don't think it was harsh at all. I think it was fitting of the tone, and if you know the meaning of ignorance, you'd know it fits the situation.

What I DO think is rude and harsh is to come into a group knowing nothing of the people who are posting or their expertise, and making statements that are WILDLY incorrect in a very disrespectful manner.


----------



## Ladybug2001

Chiilaa said:


> That horse is brown too. I would be interested what you learn in your horse genetic class, because it will be interesting to see what the institutions are doing to keep up with current research.
> 
> No one was rude, unless you consider disagreeing with you rude. In that case, you need to not come on the internet at all. There will always be people who disagree with you, and sometimes they are right and you are wrong.


 
Alright, so my opinion of what brown is, IS right? That is pretty interesting. I'll be sure to post a thread when I hear what my instructor has to say about a brown horse. 


So saying that, if my thoughts of a brown horse is indeed correct, how is it right of you to assume I didn't know what I was talking about. Sure, I don't understand how this horse is brown but I do know what a typical brown horse looks like?

I'm not saying you are rude by disagreeing with me, its the way you are disagreeing. I don't have a probably with you "proving" me wrong. That is all I got.

One last thing, I shouldn't come on the internet if I don't like you disagreeing? I can go to other forums and have just as much fun.


----------



## Malice

Actually, in my opinion 'people over the Internet' are one of the greatest learning tools we have at our disposal. Yes, everything read must be taken with a grain of salt if it can not be proved, but when we live in a world where nonfictional books about such research is rare to find, the Internet and the people that have real life knowledge dealing with it are a huge assets. And if we continue on with such attitude as ladybug and red fox carry we will continue living in ignorance and spreading such ignorance has understanding another's arguement was so 'below them' because of what the have been raised to believe, even if science has disproven it, which it has with billions of other things that people don't blink twice at.


----------



## Chiilaa

Just because you can recognise what one brown horse looks like does not make you an expert. Brown is like many other colours in that it can range greatly in hue, from very light through to almost completely black.


----------



## nyx

Wow IMO you can either listen to the people who actually know what they are talking about OR you can call browns bays, and chestnuts brown and I would like to know what she thinks a bay is? Lol sorry just too funny. 

I find colour and the genetics really interesting and love reading the threads mostly where chilla and poseidon have an input cos I know its right!


----------



## redfox122194

saying that I shouldn't be on the internet sound rude to me. I didnt start this, I was just stating my thoughts. You guys are laughing at my resonings, and that is rude to me, as well as telling me that I dont know anything about the coloring of a horse is rude.


----------



## Ladybug2001

Chiilaa said:


> Just because you can recognise what one brown horse looks like does not make you an expert. Brown is like many other colours in that it can range greatly in hue, from very light through to almost completely black.


My lord, I never said it made me an expert. Point out where I did in that post. I simply stated that my thoughts of a brown are not entirely wrong. You say this horse is a brown, I'm no longer arguing over that. This whole thread has gone to hell in everyones attempt to prove themselves wrong. I left it where I had it, because I no longer knew if I was right or not. Am I still arguing that it IS in fact a bay? No, I'm not. I'm saying that to me, what it looks like to ME, it is a bay. I'm still learning, I'm not an "expert" as you say. Let people have their opinions, if they are willing to learn teach them. The way this is going, I'm not interested in learning from everyone here. I'll stick to my horse class this fall to learn.


----------



## ThirteenAcres

I'm sorry, but you posted a sorrel as a brown...I don't have much hope that you DO know what you're talking about. That's not rude, it is just common sense. I wouldn't trust someone to tell me a grey was white either, or a palomino was a dun.

And no one was laughing until you made yourself look bad by posting extremely horrible information. That was what killed your statements. That and the lack of actual /reasons/ behind your guess.


----------



## Chiilaa

That's fine. If you don't want to learn, go ahead and continue on your way. Don't argue with those of us who do want to learn though, because in all likelihood, one of us has done our research and actually knows what they are talking about.

Redfox - you DID start this. By coming in here, e-knighting, telling us we are wrong, when we aren't. This thread was quite, and no one was posting, before you came in here defending Ladybug's honor. Your opinion is your own, none of us can change that, but you refusing to change it in the face of evidence is laughable.


----------



## redfox122194

I didnt say you were wrong, I was saying what my thought was on the pitcher. That was all, then you all started fighting with me.


----------



## Ladybug2001

So I asked my other friends opinion, who was going to post on here the other day but didn't get to. This is what she said.

His summer photo can throw you off a bit but his winter photos are very distinctly brown. Brown horses can have black points and Bays can fade, however if you check out his muzzle, that's where it distinguishes him. Light Muzzle indicates brown horse. HOWEVER. Even this indication can be wrong sometimes. Really, in a case like this, the best way to figure it out is a DNA test.

Mind if I use what you told me?

Go ahead. Browns and Bays are almost too difficult to differentiate in a case like that with the black points.




So, see, I learned something here. Yes, you are right that that is a brown and I never arguing that it wasn't after my second post on here, but it can obviously easily be mistaken....


----------



## smrobs

Redfox, nobody was laughing at your reasonings, they were poking fun at your childish reaction to being proven wrong with actual, readily available, scientific evidence.

The picture you posted is NOT of a brown horse, in any way shape or form. Perhaps for someone who is completely uneducated on horses, that might be erroneously called "brown" the same way that a buckskin or a palomino might be called "yellow" or "gold". That doesn't make it correct in the sense of the question that the OP was asking.

The horses in the picture that you posted are genetically, red horses (ee) and may be called chestnut or sorrel, but it is still a red horse.


There is a very large difference between a "brown" horse as you have described them and a true brown horse. IMHO, Snuffy is a prime example of a true brown horse. He has the telltale markings of a bay horse (black mane, tail, legs, ears) but with a very pronounced softening of the "soft" areas discussed above.









As opposed to Nester, who is undoubtedly, unequivocally BAY.


----------



## ThirteenAcres

Also, to clarify to the OP, none of my statements regarding the acceptance of someone stating your horse is brown was aimed at you. You have been polite and fun to chat with the entire time on the subject.

I realized how one of my earlier statements could have come across. But I assure you, as I believe I was one of the ones in chat, it was not aimed at you. =)


----------



## nyx

Sooo were having a nice beautiful sunny day here in central NSW  
Haha, little distraction.  

Anyways, so that means my filly is brown! Correct? Thanks I learned something today


----------



## Chiilaa

Yes, brown


----------



## nyx

Ahh ok and I had a QH that always confused me he was chestnut colour with a lighter main and tail with like single strands of black and whiteish through it. Would that be flaxin? Ill try post a pic if I can find one.


----------



## nrhareiner

redfox122194 said:


> like I have said before, It is my opinion and no matter what you say I will always think im right. brown dose NOT have black points. Find a brown horse with black points and show me the blood test, then I might believe you. You have been VERY rude to people on here who say the horse is bay. You are making a fool of your self.


Roosters Wrangler take a look he is a brown horse EeAt
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Saranda

Oh my, what a turn has this thread taken! Don't fight, children.  Well, this clearly proves how complicated color genetics are. And it actually explains me a lot - for example, why my "bay" horse differs that much from the truly bay horses at our barn. 










This mare, for example. Looks bay to me, am I right? Her soft points don't get any lighter during the year and she generally stays the same allthrough the coat changes.


----------



## dbarabians

There are members on ths forum that have taken the time to learn the dynamics of colour. They are highly informed on the subject.
If anyone would like to gain some of the knowledge they have aquired then read the post and digest the information. 
Especially if you want to avoid being embarrassed by relaying information that is not fact.
To learn something you have to accept it as fact. Then the path to knowledge is easy. Shalom


----------



## Mike_User

Hi everyone,

A number of posts have been removed from this thread because they amounted to nothing more than squabbling with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

Generally speaking, refuting opinions that amount to beliefs in incorrect facts that can be or have been tested and disproven is not attacking or insulting, but educating. As others have said, everyone is welcome to cling to such beliefs, but if you are not even open to considering evidence that refutes your beliefs and the possibility of learning something new, then you arguably have no business discussing the topic with the educated. 

At the same time, generally speaking, those in a position to educate others will be much more successful at it if they approach it empathetically, with the intention of helping others learn and grow.

That said, we would appreciate it if, going forward, everyone would please ensure that their posts do not sink to the caliber of those that were removed. 

Thank you,
Your friendly neighborhood administrator


----------



## verona1016

Saranda said:


> This mare, for example. Looks bay to me, am I right? Her soft points don't get any lighter during the year and she generally stays the same allthrough the coat changes.


She's very pretty, that's for sure  With the golden sheen to her coat and the shoulder barring, I'm curious... does she have a dorsal stripe? Maybe a bay dun?


----------



## Saranda

Yes, she has a distinct dorsal stripe, if I'm not mistaken. Here's some more recent pictures, where also the dorsal stripe is visible. And yes, she's a fatty, we're working to prevent that.  



















She's a Latvian Carriage horse.


----------



## Centaurheart

Definitely bay! What a pretty boy.  But you could always have him tested just to be sure... 
With any question you'll ask ten people and get ten opinions. We love our debates, us horse people.


----------



## Saranda

The debates are indeed lovely.  I doubt I will get a test - I'm not even sure DNA tests for horses are available in my country and it is not that important for me to get one as he is a gelding anyway and I love him as he is. But it is very interesting to learn about the color differences and I'm sure it will come in handy some day.


----------



## nyx

How did you teach her to sit? Man thats cute haha 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Saranda

Hah, with time and patience.  First a horse has to be taught to lie down solidly, then he is ready to learn sitting - from rising up and then staying in a certain position. My gelding knows it, too, it took some effort, but he enjoys new tricks:


----------



## Kayella

I'd say that dorsal stripe is just counter-shading. A dorsal is very distinct, year round, all the way down the back. I can see the fading at the withers and somewhat at the croup. Other colors may have shoulder barring or leg barring, or counter-shading, but are not a dun.


----------



## TimberRidgeRanch

I have to say so many people call bay horses brown when in fact they are bay BROWN true brown is a horse with a mixture of bay and black hairs all over the body making them a even color The horse about is a bright/ or blood bay plain and simple. Hes not brown his sire may be brown but he is bay. I do know that some registries do not recognize certain colors such as in the morgan ot TB registries they register palominos as chestnuts or sorrels. But no matter how you look at it that horse of yours in bay.
JMHO
I always felt brown is just a form of bay some get heated over this debate but I choose not to. To each their own I say. 
He sure is a pretty boy and so was his sire!
TRR


----------



## nyx

it looks awesome. ! My horse can bow and from there im teaching her to lay down and I guess its just all a bit if a triangle 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chiilaa

TimberRidgeRanch said:


> *I have to say so many people call bay horses brown when in fact they are bay BROWN true brown is a horse with a mixture of bay and black hairs all over the body making them a even color The horse about is a bright/ or blood bay plain and simple. Hes not brown his sire may be brown but he is bay. I do know that some registries do not recognize certain colors such as in the morgan ot TB registries they register palominos as chestnuts or sorrels. But no matter how you look at it that horse of yours in bay.*
> *JMHO*
> * I always felt brown is just a form of bay some get heated over this debate but I choose not to. To each their own I say. *
> *He sure is a pretty boy and so was his sire!*
> *TRR*


And yet the scientific evidence tells us that BROWN is indeed a distinct colour, and that the phenotype (what the colour looks like on the outside) is very similar to bay. If you read back a few pages, several people have mentioned the areas that brown differs from bay.


----------



## Reno Bay

Chiilaa said:


> And yet the scientific evidence tells us that BROWN is indeed a distinct colour, and that the phenotype (what the colour looks like on the outside) is very similar to bay. If you read back a few pages, several people have mentioned the areas that brown differs from bay.


Brown may be genetically different from bay and causes a completely different phenotype, but the brown gene is essentially a modified agouti/bay gene, it just removes the black pigment from completely different parts of the horse's body. The seal brown gene is called At because it's part of the agouti family, otherwise it would have been called B or something.

Browns and bays are both black based colors, but the different variations of the agouti gene cause different black restrictions. Whereas A-/bay restricts the black to only the legs, mane, tail, and ears (sometimes muzzle), At-/brown very minimally restricts the black so that what would have been bay only shows through the muzzle, flanks, and inner legs.

Bays can be dark enough to look brown, but browns can *never *be light enough to look bay.

Bay horses can also have the lightening/sealing/mealing on their soft parts, so that is not a brown-specific trait. Browns however can't really be light with dark points because they're all black to begin with.

Sometimes "brown" is just an opinion of how the horse physically looks. Dark chestnuts to some people are "brown", bays to some people are "brown", just because their physical color is, in fact, a shade of brown.

However, you should not mistake personal opinion of appearance for knowledge of color genetics. I've been researching the genetics of equine color for _*years*_, so I'm pretty darn sure I know what I'm talking about.

If you really want to get your horse tested (and you live in the US) Animal Genetics Inc. has an agouti test and they are currently developing a seal brown test that should hopefully be available this year or next.


----------



## NdAppy

There is already a Brown test available...


----------



## Reno Bay

I never said there wasn't. This facility may be closer or more convenient for some people. Options are nice to have.


----------



## NdAppy

No but you implied that there wasn't. There is a brown test available. They limit their to that and test for no other color options.

I would love to hear where your expertise comes from...


----------



## Reno Bay

I didn't imply anything. I simply said that this specific place is coming out with a test in case anyone was interested.

I don't need to tell you anything because you are being presumptuous and rude, and I do not appreciate that.


----------



## nyx

Reno just dont pay attention to it. All this thread has been that kind of attitude. Im sure the OP appreciates your input and thats all that matters. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chiilaa

Brown CAN be as light as bay. Current research is indicating that homozygous At horses are a lighter phenotype than homozygous horses. As for it being a form of agouti, yes, I am aware of this. Tobiano and roan are both mutations of chromosome three, that doesn't mean we shouldn't distinguish between them, why would we not do the same for bay and brown?

If providing a scientific viewpoint is "attitude" then I will continue to bring my sass into threads filled with misconceptions and outdated ideas. Science has moved forward guys, don't stick to your old beliefs about how colour works like a barnacle to a pier. Reno, you claim to have spent years researching equine genetics, I would love to see the papers you have read that support your views. Because without scientific evidence to support it, your opinion is just that - opinion. I don't deal in opinions, I deal in facts.


----------



## Reno Bay

I was commenting on the fact that Appy was being rude in that they were sarcastic about my personal research and assuming that I wasn't aware of other facilities doing the aforementioned tests.

I don't bash what people know from what they've read and researched. I debate (or try to politely) from what I have read and researched. Everyone is constantly learning, myself included. I suppose perhaps I haven't been able to find newer material to study and if you would kindly point out to me newer reports and such I would be glad to extend my knowledge further. I haven't had the financial ability to do so, but I am highly interested in minoring in equine study if I am able to receive grants or have the proper income to make such further education available to me.

Please note that I am not being sarcastic (as a few people seem to be, though tone cannot really be accurately conveyed through text) when I say I would appreciate being directed to the newer material that I might have missed out on.


----------



## nyx

Look I respect your knowledge and all but I dont think someone should be critisised as soon as they have a different input. Even if its wrong it can be corrected nicely, I know that didnt work the first time :/ but just cos of that one person not everyone has to be treated the same straight up. 

I just think this thread has got a little out of hand and maybe everyone should start on a clean plate.


----------



## Reno Bay

I shall leave this thread now. Any of you who say I am behind on the times, so to speak, I invite you to (politely, if you please) private message me with any articles, reports, book titles, etc. of more recent research regarding these genes.I would very much appreciate it if any of you could find the time to do that.

I will apologize if I seemed at all snippy. I am currently annoyed at my dying computer, this kid who broke something expensive of mine, and suffering from a kidney infection, so I'm just all-around crabby at the moment (the only pain medications that work on me are Vicodin and Morpine, neither of which I have a prescription for).


----------



## PrettyLilSweety

omg id say bay but im very convinced by poseidon that hes brown never knew that color diff


----------



## Chiilaa

http://petdnaservicesaz.com/BrownPaintHorseJournal0410.pdf

Pet DNA Services of AZ - Agouti Equine DNA Testing

Both of these are from the only lab that tests for brown. They are yet to publish their findings for peer review, but until then, they have some very good information on those two links. 

As for any other genetics related papers, well I am a current university student, so can usually access them for free, but can't duplicate them. A few of them can be found floating around, if you are interested in any in particular let me know and I can see if I can locate them


----------



## LaYuqwam111

he is a bay. 
if the dam is chestnut, she carries two chestnut genes. so she must give the foal one chestnut gene. if the father is a brown, he will throw a BBB (black/brown/bay) gene, and depending whether one of his parents is a chestnut, he will have a chestnut gene as well. so he could throw a BBB or a chestnut. But because the foal is a bay, the sire has thrown a BBB gene, hence the bay offspring. because the mother is chestnut, the foal will be carrying a recessive chestnut gene. 

so in short, the horse is bay with a chestnut recessive gene. 
hope this helps 

Kayla


----------



## Chiilaa

Except that bay and brown are not tied to black. For a horse to be red, they have to have two "e" genes, the recessive version of the extension allele. If a dominant extension allele "E" is present, the horse will be black based. Bay and brown are mutations of the agouti allele, with bay being "A", brown being "At", wild bay being "A+", and "a" being the recessive allele. Agouti restricts black in various ways, and as such can only act on a black base coat, as a red coat doesn't produce black pigment (eumelanin) which is what agouti acts on. As such, it is very possible for a chestnut horse to carry agouti without showing it at all. On top of that, the sire is definitely brown, and as bay is dominant over brown at the agouti allele, he has no bay to pass on, only brown.


----------



## Reno Bay

Chiilaa said:


> Except that bay and brown are not tied to black.


Except in the sense that bays and browns are EE/Ee with _some _form of agouti.

But basically what Chiilaa's saying, I think, is that the genes that cause bay and brown aren't tied to black.

BBB gene? That's a new one for me XD

(darn it. I lied and came back)


----------



## filly20

Yeah just looks to be a plain ol bay, his sire looks more to be black bay, wich is a REALLY dark bay they look black.


----------



## NdAppy

Filly brown is a color. What you are calling a "black bay" has been scientifically _proven_ to be an color other than bay, and that color is a variation in the shade of brown. Both bay and brown are caused by agouti which is a gene that restricts black to the points of a horse. Bay and brown just do so in different ways.


----------



## TimberRidgeRanch

Okay Im just going to come out and say it. Tell it like it is. WHO CARES!!! lol some on here are squabling over something so dumb as what color the horse is . Its a horse dont matter the color. Hes a good looking smart horse lets just call him BAYBROWN okay. lol You can study all you want about genetics and study it but to me its down right rude to shove your opinion in ones face like its a law. This thread was not put on here to have only one opinion just like all other threads. There is no reason to be rude about something such as color.
someone comes into your barn looking to board and they say hey what a pretty bay....what you going to do be stuck up and say hes not a bay hes a brown idiot. I mean come on. Act that way in my barn theres the door dont let the horse kick ya on the way out. JMHO

TRR


----------



## ThirteenAcres

TimberRidgeRanch said:


> *Okay Im just going to come out and say it. Tell it like it is. WHO CARES!!! lol some on here are squabling over something so dumb as what color the horse is . Its a horse dont matter the color. Hes a good looking smart horse lets just call him BAYBROWN okay. lol You can study all you want about genetics and study it but to me its down right rude to shove your opinion in ones face like its a law. This thread was not put on here to have only one opinion just like all other threads. There is no reason to be rude about something such as color.*
> *someone comes into your barn looking to board and they say hey what a pretty bay....what you going to do be stuck up and say hes not a bay hes a brown idiot. I mean come on. Act that way in my barn theres the door dont let the horse kick ya on the way out. JMHO*
> 
> *TRR*


If the OP didn't care, they wouldn't have asked for more information. And if people didn't care, they wouldn't continue to discuss the science behind these things as they are. It isn't squabbling. It is a conversation of two opposing points. 

Btw, if someone was at my barn and called my mare a bay, yes, I'd kindly smile and tell them she's brown and probably have the chance to educate someone who had no idea before. Would I be rude? No. But I would say it all the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Saranda

Timber, I actually wanted to learn what differs bays and browns, what does it mean genetically and how to tell a bay from a brown in tricky cases. I value opinions, but even more I value knowledge, and, although I love my horse as he is, I feel that the more I know, the broader perspectives and opportunities become available for me. That's what education does, and I LOVE education.  With the help of the thread I've learned many interesting facts and will probably explore color genetics deeper. Life is too short to remain uninformed.


----------



## ThirteenAcres

Also, it's sad that people deem things "stupid" because they arent interested. If color was stupid to everyone, we wouldn't know about the genetic problems of some horses. If we couldn't identify it, we couldn't prevent things like LWO. 

I hope people continue to be as interested in "stupid" subjects as they are. There's a lot more out there that hasn't been 100% uncovered.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TimberRidgeRanch

THIRTEEN I was not speaking about the OP I was refering to NDAPPY and RENO it was getting a bit rude there by one to another. When it gets to that point WHO CARES. I would understand if you plan to breed or you had a mare or a stallion but a gelding who cares what their color is. I understand what your saying But I will never understand why some insist on it being THEIR WAY, THEY KNOW IT ALL and thats it. Thats the rude part about the whole thing. RENO made a statement and NDAPPY jumped right in on it demanding where she got her facts etc etc I mean come on now.

TRR


----------



## TimberRidgeRanch

Saranda said:


> Timber, I actually wanted to learn what differs bays and browns, what does it mean genetically and how to tell a bay from a brown in tricky cases. I value opinions, but even more I value knowledge, and, although I love my horse as he is, I feel that the more I know, the broader perspectives and opportunities become available for me. That's what education does, and I LOVE education.  With the help of the thread I've learned many interesting facts and will probably explore color genetics deeper. Life is too short to remain uninformed.


 SARANDA The post wasnt refering to what you posted it was toward the otgers who were getting rude. I myself think bays and browns are pretty much the same. But thats my opinion. lol there is too much going on in the world to fight over a color is what Im saying to SOME on here.

TRR


----------



## ThirteenAcres

I think it also has a lot to do with being a bit jaded on the tailcoats of people who come in with "facts" but have no idea what they're talking about. 

I can see how it gets exasperating to a person go spends their devoted time researching all the scientific proof they can to give people who want an answer the best information possible without going through actual genetic testing. 

Kinda like a new kid coming to your job and telling you how to do it. I can see where the annoyance enters.


----------



## ThirteenAcres

But! When they start "squabbling", a lot of valuable information spills out. So I look at it as hidden opportunities to war the proof point blank behind a guess. 

Hehe


----------



## Saranda

I respect your opinion, Timber, but I think that there is too much to color genetics to say that it's just about color.


----------



## TimberRidgeRanch

SARANDA that understand


----------



## Reno Bay

TimberRidgeRanch said:


> *THIRTEEN I was not speaking about the OP I was refering to NDAPPY and RENO it was getting a bit rude there by one to another. When it gets to that point WHO CARES. I would understand if you plan to breed or you had a mare or a stallion but a gelding who cares what their color is. I understand what your saying But I will never understand why some insist on it being THEIR WAY, THEY KNOW IT ALL and thats it. Thats the rude part about the whole thing. RENO made a statement and NDAPPY jumped right in on it demanding where she got her facts etc etc I mean come on now.*
> 
> *TRR*


Excuse me? I never got rude. I was defending myself against rudeness. I politely accepted that I was wrong and asked to be directed to more recent information.

(edit: Sorry, my eyes apparently didn't register the last part of the post. That's what happens when I'm exhausted and ill)

To be...idk contributing? Yes, I may have been wrong (well...for the recent times). Even if what I know is incorrect, it doesn't give anyone the right to ride up my butt about it and not attempt to correct me in a polite manner. That is, in fact, extremely rude and arrogant.


----------



## ThirteenAcres

Reno Bay said:


> Excuse me? I never got rude. I was defending myself against rudeness. I politely accepted that I was wrong and asked to be directed to more recent information.
> 
> (edit: Sorry, my eyes apparently didn't register the last part of the post. That's what happens when I'm exhausted and ill)
> 
> To be...idk contributing? Yes, I may have been wrong (well...for the recent times). Even if what I know is incorrect, it doesn't give anyone the right to ride up my butt about it and not attempt to correct me in a polite manner. That is, in fact, extremely rude and arrogant.


Keep in mind that some people on the forum won't move in circles around their point. So don't take too much offense to that. I don't think NdAppy was being rude, more point blank asking where you get your information. Knowing the source of information is helpful in determining if that information may have been since refuted or disproved. I wouldn't take it too personally.

Plus, it's so hard for anyone to express their opinions via text in a tone that won't be mistaken by /someone/. Try and assume the best, not the worst. =)


----------



## Reno Bay

ThirteenAcres said:


> Keep in mind that some people on the forum won't move in circles around their point. So don't take too much offense to that. I don't think NdAppy was being rude, more point blank asking where you get your information. Knowing the source of information is helpful in determining if that information may have been since refuted or disproved. I wouldn't take it too personally.
> 
> Plus, it's so hard for anyone to express their opinions via text in a tone that won't be mistaken by /someone/. Try and assume the best, not the worst. =)


Even so, I do get how it can be annoying having to correct people over and over, venting your frustration by not even attempting to be polite is not something I like to be confronted with. Stating in the beginning that my information was dated and directing me to more recent finding would have been more helpful than the short seemingly-snappy posts she provided. I'm the kind of person who learns better through kindness and helpfulness rather than "tough-love".

And yes, tone (aside from shouting) is extremely hard to convey through any form of writing. I took it as rudeness, others may have seen it as being a little peeved at having to repeat oneself. And I tend to be more of a glass-half-empty kind of person by nature, so that's where all that comes from (plus the whole medical thing happening with me currently hasn't put me in the best mood either).


----------



## ThirteenAcres

You also came in on the tail of a rather frustrating conversation. haha

This thread in itself became a bit touchy.


----------



## Saranda

I just caught myself wondering - can *I* be considered light brown or dark blonde??? Or maybe a shade of gray? :lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Reno Bay

Saranda said:


> I just caught myself wondering - can *I* be considered light brown or dark blonde??? Or maybe a shade of gray? :lol::lol::lol:


Haha! I think human hair color is a little different from horses, as our hair color relies completely on how much eumelanin (dark brown - basically how dark our hair will be) and how much pheomelanin (red - how red our hair will be) we have and not on specific color genes like animals. Though maybe it's the same for horses in regards to color shades...


----------



## ThirteenAcres

I believe we are all born homozygous grey.


----------



## whiskeynoo

I would have said that horse was bay, however i am willing to believe the evidence given that the horse is infact brown (i've also been having a wee nose on the web to further my knowledge on what i now know) and i'd like to think i can now spot a brown horse ;D

Edit: would this be brown?


----------



## ThirteenAcres

A few months ago I had NO idea there was a difference. Now I am sort of in love with the color. I have a very obvious brown horse and she has the most lovely color. 

and the registered bay I had was also brown. Just never realized it.


----------



## texasgal

** gone for 3 days, drove 1200 miles, bought two horses, enjoying the rain, and ya'll are STILL arguing over the brown horse**

Just sayin' 

LOL -- coincidently, and to keep things on topic, one of the horses I bought ... is BROWN.


----------



## ThirteenAcres

Welcome to the club!! Hehe


----------



## Saranda

Well, when I was planning to buy a horse, I thought I'd search for a SPECIAL color. Like black or gray, or maybe dun. A pinto seemed a good idea, too, I like pintos and they are rare around here. Something flashy was on my mind, definitely. And then I met Snickers. No flashy movements, solid, but simple build, and good ol'brown (or bay  ). Nothing _speshulll_ at all. The love of my life. 

But now I see, how he is pure, hot chocolate in winters, and that goes so well with the snow and the icy blue skies of a cold winter day! When spring comes, he is a lighter shade of brown, something warm and soft, like soil, ready for growth and new life. Then there are summers, when he carries all shades of golden, just like honey, and in shade his browns remind me of tree barks and wild forest trails. And, when the fall takes the place of summer, his coat becomes like copper and a bit like fire, and I enjoy to see his soft parts become lighter and lighter, like a fuzzy trim on a comfy coat for cooler mornings. There is nothing more special I could wish for now.


----------



## Reno Bay

I guess I'll hand out the money for testing on my boy just to be 100% sure (can't hurt right? I kinda want to know officially). When the results come back in, depending on what they are, then I will officially join the BAB club ;p

Should I only get him tested for At or should I shell out extra money to test him for heterozygous or ****-dominant A? Asking because even if he has At, if he also has a dominant A he's still bay, but carries brown...if I understand it correctly.


----------



## nrhareiner

The problem with Bay brown and even some black horses is that depending on the time of year their color can and will look different. So debating what color a horse is can get you no place. If you reall want to know the only way to be 100% sure is to test.


----------



## Reno Bay

nrhareiner said:


> The problem with Bay brown and even some black horses is that depending on the time of year their color can and will look different. So debating what color a horse is can get you no place. If you reall want to know the only way to be 100% sure is to test.


If you're responding to me, I'm pretty sure I did say I was getting him tested...just asked if I should only test for At (brown) or also for dominant A (bay).

If you weren't responding to me, I agree with you either way. And don't forget the smoky blacks XD


----------



## nrhareiner

No was not refering to anyone really. Just stateing that if you really wish to know what color a horse is test. Does not just go for bay/brown but any color really that there is a test for.


----------



## ThirteenAcres

True. But that's also why posters ask for pictures in many different seasons, typically, before guessing.


----------



## nrhareiner

Thing is which one is the true color? Then you have to take into consideration about how the picture was set when it was taken. Then you need to take into account your monitor.


----------



## Reno Bay

nrhareiner said:


> Thing is which one is the true color? Then you have to take into consideration about how the picture was set when it was taken. Then you need to take into account your monitor.


I personally consider the warmer season coats to be more to their true color than when they start getting shaggy, but that's just me. And other people are sure to have their own opinions, so really who's to say what's what?

As for your second point I wholeheartedly agree. I have two pictures of Reno taken not five seconds between them. In one he looks like a normal light bay and in the other he looks like a bright red bay...and he's nowhere near that shade in real life. Camera did an oops.


----------



## verona1016

nrhareiner said:


> Thing is which one is the true color? Then you have to take into consideration about how the picture was set when it was taken. Then you need to take into account your monitor.


The true color has to take into account how the horse's color varies over time. A brown horse might look bay in summer, but a bay horse will never look brown.


----------



## ThirteenAcres

verona1016 said:


> The true color has to take into account how the horse's color varies over time. A brown horse might look bay in summer, but a bay horse will never look brown.


Good point.


----------



## nrhareiner

verona1016 said:


> The true color has to take into account how the horse's color varies over time. A brown horse might look bay in summer, but a bay horse will never look brown.


 

While this is true 99% of the time there are exceptions to this rule. I have a bay mare who in the wintet at time is so dark she looks brown almost black and she is NOT brown. I have also seen black horses who look brown in certain times of the year. Have one here now. There are so many variables when you are talking pheno types even what the horse eats can change how the horse looks in regards to color.


----------



## Chiilaa

nrhareiner said:


> While this is true 99% of the time there are exceptions to this rule. I have a bay mare who in the wintet at time is so dark she looks brown almost black and she is NOT brown. I have also seen black horses who look brown in certain times of the year. Have one here now. There are so many variables when you are talking pheno types even what the horse eats can change how the horse looks in regards to color.


When you say she looks brown, does she just get really dark, or does she get dark and have the lighter soft parts? Has she been tested for brown and not just agouti? Because the more I research, and the more I see, the more convinced I am that brown is very very common, and a bay tends to not change colours as much as a brown does from season to season. I would love to see photos


----------



## nrhareiner

Yes she has been tested she is EEAA no At.


----------



## Chiilaa

nrhareiner said:


> Yes she has been tested she is EEAA no At.


Was she actually tested through PetDNA though? Or through a different lab?


----------



## smrobs

Hmm, now that we're already way off topic, I got to thinking about something tonight while I was doing chores. Say you have a horse that looks wild bay...but he also is slightly lighter in his soft areas. Without actually testing to see for sure, would he likely qualify as a wild bay or a brown.

Or does the wild bay gene also affect body coloring similar to the way brown does?


----------



## nrhareiner

Yes she has been tested for brown. She has actually been tested by 3 different labs over the years for just about everything.

Not sure this is the best picture I have of her that shows how dark she can get. It also will vary from not only time of year but year to year.


----------



## Chiilaa

smrobs said:


> Hmm, now that we're already way off topic, I got to thinking about something tonight while I was doing chores. Say you have a horse that looks wild bay...but he also is slightly lighter in his soft areas. Without actually testing to see for sure, would he likely qualify as a wild bay or a brown.
> 
> Or does the wild bay gene also affect body coloring similar to the way brown does?


Hmm. Theoretically, wild bay is the most dominant of the agouti genes, so should trump everything else. I would imagine that any lightning would be caused by the extreme restriction of black. Also pangare could have an effect, but pangare doesn't tend to be seasonal, which distinguishes it from brown there.


----------



## smrobs

Hmm, very interesting.


----------



## Saskia

Slightly off-topic. I don't know anything about horse genetics. 

So the "brown" horse is like a "bay" but can demonstrate a lightening of soft points due to a different effect of the agouti gene. 

Does this do a similar thing with chestnuts? I've seen a lot of solid chestnuts that uniformly one colour but my chestnut mare pales around the legs and belly a bit. Is this a similar genetic effect or is it just another shade of chestnut?


----------



## Chiilaa

Saskia that is probably pangare. Pangare can show on bay and brown horses too, it lightens the underside of the horse. This guy is a pretty extreme example:










And this is pangare on bay:


----------



## lilkitty90

can anyone post a winter picture of a brown horse that looks bay next to the winter picture of a real bay, just for some comparison purposes because most bay horses people post here are actually brown, so i don't think ive actually ever seen a winter photo of a bay horse. i basically just want to see how even there coat looks compared to the softer points on a brown.


----------



## nrhareiner

lilkitty90 said:


> can anyone post a winter picture of a brown horse that looks bay next to the winter picture of a real bay, just for some comparison purposes because most bay horses people post here are actually brown, so i don't think ive actually ever seen a winter photo of a bay horse. i basically just want to see how even there coat looks compared to the softer points on a brown.


 
Take a look at the picture I posted earlier in this thread. That is a bay horse in winter.


----------



## Reno Bay

Chiilaa,
I know a few of you are convinced that Reno is brown. I'll be sending some stuff to labs (which one is the most reliable, do you think, so I don't waste money?) just because I want to know for sure. If he comes out with _no _At at all, I'll just be stumped as to why his muzzle gets lighter sometimes unless that's some odd minimal pangare or something at work. Would you like to be in the loop when I get the results back?


----------



## NdAppy

Pet DNA is the only one that tests for At. The rest just test for agouti in general, not differentiating between the types of agouti.


----------



## Reno Bay

NdAppy said:


> Pet DNA is the only one that tests for At. The rest just test for agouti in general, not differentiating between the types of agouti.


Ah XD I got confused because there are two websites about AZ labs that test for At. The websites look completely different.


----------



## NdAppy

Yep, Pet DA was just bought out by another company, hence the confusion factor :lol:


----------



## verona1016

nrhareiner said:


> Take a look at the picture I posted earlier in this thread. That is a bay horse in winter.


That certainly drives home the point that sometimes only genetic testing can tell you for sure. Given just that one picture I would probably have pegged her for brown  

There are a ton of genetic factors that affect a horse's color that we just haven't discovered yet.

ETA- did you test her for sooty by any chance?


----------



## lilkitty90

so regular bays can look brown... the plot thickens... lol they are all colored pretty though! thats all that is most important!


----------



## nrhareiner

no did not test for that and doubt I will. Back when I was testing her I did just about everything offered since I was doing it all anyway. I also tend to do the test 2 maybe 3 times with different labs on certain horses and she was one of them.


----------



## Chiilaa

nrhareiner said:


> no did not test for that and doubt I will. Back when I was testing her I did just about everything offered since I was doing it all anyway. I also tend to do the test 2 maybe 3 times with different labs on certain horses and she was one of them.


You wouldn't have tested her for sooty since there isn't a test for that. Out of curiosity, how long ago did you test her?


----------



## nrhareiner

Depends on which test you are talking about. She was tested for HERDA back a few years ago when it came out and the other since then along with a second test for HERDA and such. Only new test I have not done with her is Splash. See no reason for that.


----------



## verona1016

Chiilaa said:


> You wouldn't have tested her for sooty since there isn't a test for that. Out of curiosity, how long ago did you test her?


Well that's disappointing. Don't they know there are hundreds (ok, at least a few dozen!) of color-obsessesed horsepeople out there that would really like to know if a particular horse carries sooty?


----------



## Chiilaa

nrhareiner said:


> Depends on which test you are talking about. She was tested for HERDA back a few years ago when it came out and the other since then along with a second test for HERDA and such. Only new test I have not done with her is Splash. See no reason for that.


The test for bay vs brown.


----------



## Chiilaa

verona1016 said:


> Well that's disappointing. Don't they know there are hundreds (ok, at least a few dozen!) of color-obsessesed horsepeople out there that would really like to know if a particular horse carries sooty?


And all forms of sabino, and all forms of splash, and flaxen, and pangare, and rabicano, and all DWs and and and and!!


----------



## nrhareiner

Chiilaa said:


> The test for bay vs brown.


Right after if first came out what about a year or so ago. Hard to remember as I have tesed quite a few horses over the years and will be testing anouther this year. Not sure if I will test him for brown but probably will.


----------



## ThirteenAcres

You don't really think about how much you could test for until you have one that you're not sure where to start. lol

I made up a list of my horses and the tests I'd like done, and the bill is looking sad. I have at least 3 tests per horse I'd like done.

If I had all the money I want to spare, I'd test for everything just to get experience in reading the reports. haha


----------



## Chiilaa

When I have a horse again, it might look a little thin in the mane for a while...


----------



## dbarabians

This is another reason that I love arabians.
I do not have to test for colour.
They only are registerd as Black, Bay, Grey, or Chestnut.
I like things really simple. LOL
Shalom


----------



## ThirteenAcres

dbarabians said:


> This is another reason that I love arabians.
> I do not have to test for colour.
> They only are registerd as Black, Bay, Grey, or Chestnut.
> I like things really simple. LOL
> Shalom


But don't you want to know their reaaaal color? XD


----------



## Chiilaa

dbarabians said:


> This is another reason that I love arabians.
> I do not have to test for colour.
> They only are registerd as Black, Bay, Grey, or Chestnut.
> I like things really simple. LOL
> Shalom


Brown exists in Arabians. So does sabino, splash (probably), dominant white, and rabicano.


----------



## nrhareiner

At the end of the day does it really matter?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chiilaa

nrhareiner said:


> At the end of the day does it really matter?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sorry, but I don't think this constant "does it really matter" from people who don't care is fair to us that do. Just because some people don't give a fig what colour their horse is, does not mean that we who DO care about colour genetics should be ridiculed, least of all by a moderator. If people don't care, then they shouldn't be posting in the subforum titled "Horse Colors and Genetics". I don't have minis, nor will I ever have them, but you don't see me in there saying that it doesn't matter that they are different from "big" horses. The same should apply here. The constant talking down that several of us have received, in this thread in particular but in others also, is beginning to wear on us.


----------



## NdAppy

I'm with Chiilaa on this. It may not matter to most people, but it matters to those interested in genetics and what causes a horse to be the color it is. If you (collective) have no interest in that then why are you (collective again) posting in the subforum that was made specifically to ask and discuss the genes and differences in color?


----------



## dbarabians

Why would anyone be offended that someone has posted that they adhere to the colour rules of the Arabian Horse Association?
Even if brown does exist in Arabs you cannot register one as such.
Arabs are also registered by colour not coat pattern.
My remarks were a general statement and THIS IS A PUBLIC FORUM.
Taking something so trivial so personally is troubling to me.
Chillaa and NDAppy posess a world of knowledge about colour genetics.
However this portion of the Forum is not your personal realm.
Shalom


----------



## Reno Bay

I personally don't think they meant it to be offensive. In the grand scheme of things color and the genetics that cause it may not really matter all that much. I for one, however, think that color genetics are fascinating. I want to learn as much as possible


----------



## Chiilaa

dbarabians said:


> Why would anyone be offended that someone has posted that they adhere to the colour rules of the Arabian Horse Association?
> Even if brown does exist in Arabs you cannot register one as such.
> Arabs are also registered by colour not coat pattern.
> My remarks were a general statement and THIS IS A PUBLIC FORUM.
> Taking something so trivial so personally is troubling to me.
> Chillaa and NDAppy posess a world of knowledge about colour genetics.
> However this portion of the Forum is not your personal realm.
> Shalom


I am sorry. I did not mean to snark at you. I agree with you - Arabians are easy. However, in Australia, we can register them as brown lol.


----------



## dbarabians

Chillaa thanks for the info about arabs. Shalom


----------



## Chiilaa

dbarabians said:


> However this portion of the Forum is not your personal realm.


I just want to readdress this. We don't think this is our "personal realm". However, it is not fair to have us constantly ridiculed by others who have professed to "not care" about horse colours, in a section of the forum devoted to horse colours. You will notice that we don't go into the riding sections, or the training sections, and start going on about what colour the horse is. We should be returned the same courtesy by having others respect that this is the area where colours will be spoken of, genetics will be explored, and we happen to have an opinion on them. If people don't want to know what colour their horse is, or don't care about the genetics behind it, they don't have to post in here. But coming in and telling us that "it doesn't matter" should not be welcomed by anyone.


----------



## dbarabians

Chillaa you have a lot of information about genetics and have a right to be proud of it.
I have read a lot of your post and NDappys as well and have learned a lot from it.
No need to apologize just keep posting and allow me to learn a lot more. Shalom


----------



## nrhareiner

Chiilaa said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't think this constant "does it really matter" from people who don't care is fair to us that do. Just because some people don't give a fig what colour their horse is, does not mean that we who DO care about colour genetics should be ridiculed, least of all by a moderator. If people don't care, then they shouldn't be posting in the subforum titled "Horse Colors and Genetics". I don't have minis, nor will I ever have them, but you don't see me in there saying that it doesn't matter that they are different from "big" horses. The same should apply here. The constant talking down that several of us have received, in this thread in particular but in others also, is beginning to wear on us.


 
First you need to step back. Being a mod does not mean that I can not express my opinion on things.

Second, I never said I was not interested in Genetics. Have a degree in Bio Med which includs quite a bit of genetices and such. However at the end of the day knowing what color a horse is genetically is not going to change anything. It is not going to cure cancer or any other genetic defect in a horse. Knowing if a horse is brown vs bay is not going to change what that horse is. Yes it is fun to know and talk about yet knowing changes nothing. The horse is what it is.


----------



## ThirteenAcres

nrhareiner said:


> First you need to step back. Being a mod does not mean that I can not express my opinion on things.
> 
> Second, I never said I was not interested in Genetics. Have a degree in Bio Med which includs quite a bit of genetices and such. However at the end of the day knowing what color a horse is genetically is not going to change anything. It is not going to cure cancer or any other genetic defect in a horse. Knowing if a horse is brown vs bay is not going to change what that horse is. Yes it is fun to know and talk about yet knowing changes nothing. The horse is what it is.


I don't agree. Identifying colors and patterns have meant the difference between life and death.


----------



## nrhareiner

Chiilaa said:


> I just want to readdress this. We don't think this is our "personal realm". However, it is not fair to have us constantly ridiculed by others who have professed to "not care" about horse colours,


First no one is ridiculing you.

Second. Theres is a differance between caring about horse colors and what color a horse is. Yes it is fun to know and talk about horse colors. However what color a horse may actualy be genetically makes little differance to what the horse actually is. The horse could be purple for all I care as long as it is still a good horse. Knowing what color the horse is just what it is. Fun info.


----------



## Chiilaa

nrhareiner said:


> First you need to step back. Being a mod does not mean that I can not express my opinion on things.


Being a mod doesn't mean you shouldn't express your opinion. However, being a mod means that other members, myself included, will put a lot more weight on your posts than they would on others. As a mod, when you post, you should be aware of this and post accordingly. Disparaging remarks about people's viewpoints not mattering is not something I would consider worthy of a mod on this forum. I have a lot of respect for you, because I know that this is not an easy forum to moderate, but in this instance, I think that you may have misread my post. I was not disagreeing with your opinion. I was saying that this forum is not the place for that particular one. This IS the place where horse colour DOES matter. Where the genetics DO matter. This is the ONLY place on this forum that they do, and for a mod to come in and then say they don't in THIS subforum is not fair. Other members will see your post, and give it the weight that a mod's post deserves, and continue to remark over and over that "a good horse is never a bad colour" and other such remarks that put down those of us that DO think it matters.



nrhareiner said:


> Second, I never said I was not interested in Genetics. Have a degree in Bio Med which includs quite a bit of genetices and such. However at the end of the day knowing what color a horse is genetically is not going to change anything. It is not going to cure cancer or any other genetic defect in a horse. Knowing if a horse is brown vs bay is not going to change what that horse is. Yes it is fun to know and talk about yet knowing changes nothing. The horse is what it is.


It doesn't matter if it doesn't change what the horse is. We are well aware of that - genetics tell the horse what to be and nothing anyone says changes the genetics. But, again, I will say it, in THIS subforum, it does matter. People who don't think that colour matters should not post in here with the sole intent to tell the rest of us that it doesn't matter.


----------



## texasgal

I have a keen interest in color genetics, however I get what nrhareiner is saying. If I found out today that my bay Arabian mare was actually brown .. wouldn't matter. She's still Charm. She's still registered as bay and everyone would still call her bay .. The only thing that is different is my knowledge, and the only one that cares about that is me!

In the big scheme of things .. to most people .. it doesn't matter. I get that. 

To those of us that enjoy genetics (like grammar) it's hard for us to understand why everyone doesn't want the knowledge.

This is my fav section of the forum ....


----------



## nrhareiner

Chiilaa said:


> Being a mod doesn't mean you shouldn't express your opinion. However, being a mod means that other members, myself included, will put a lot more weight on your posts than they would on others. As a mod, when you post, you should be aware of this and post accordingly. Disparaging remarks about people's viewpoints not mattering is not something I would consider worthy of a mod on this forum. I have a lot of respect for you, because I know that this is not an easy forum to moderate, but in this instance, I think that you may have misread my post. I was not disagreeing with your opinion. I was saying that this forum is not the place for that particular one. This IS the place where horse colour DOES matter. Where the genetics DO matter. This is the ONLY place on this forum that they do, and for a mod to come in and then say they don't in THIS subforum is not fair. Other members will see your post, and give it the weight that a mod's post deserves, and continue to remark over and over that "a good horse is never a bad colour" and other such remarks that put down those of us that DO think it matters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if it doesn't change what the horse is. We are well aware of that - genetics tell the horse what to be and nothing anyone says changes the genetics. But, again, I will say it, in THIS subforum, it does matter. People who don't think that colour matters should not post in here with the sole intent to tell the rest of us that it doesn't matter.


Again I think you are missing what I am saying. I have no problem with people testing their horses. Heck I know what mine are b/c they have been tested. It is fun. Just like any type of genetics it is fun to know. Some genetics and test are very inportent like HyPP and HERDA. Those test actualy are very importent. What color a horse is again is nice. It is something that can be fun to take about and know.

At the beginning of the day it might play a big role in what people are looking for in a horse. However at the *END* of the day it will not matter or change anything. If the horse is the color they want but can not get the job done....


Again I am not ridiculing you. Your knowlage is very good. It is fun to talk about color of the horses. I have no problem with any of it. I too enjoy it and have studied it for years. However the fact still remains that it is not even the iceing on the cake.


----------



## dbarabians

Texagal did you get her tested?
I have an Arab mare that is a dark bay.
However where she is lighter near her flanks and rear she is the colour of a buttermilk buckskin.
Her muzzle though is almost black.
I need to get to the farm to take a picture and learn how to post one to show everyone what I so ineptly am trying to describe.
With my daughter in the hospital here in Dallas that might be a while.
Shalom


----------



## Chiilaa

I understand what you are saying. And I agree - the colour of a horse IS just icing on the cake. That is not what I am getting at though.

What I have a problem with is the constant flow of people who say that. Sure, we all agree with it. But this is not the subforum to say it. This IS the subforum where the icing DOES matter. 

I feel that it IS derogatory for people to come into the genetics and colours section and say over and over that colour and genetics don't matter. You can think that, and you can say that, I have no problem with that. But not here. This is the only place where they do matter. And to constantly say they don't is just putting down those who think they do. 

What about an analogy? They work well I hear.

I don't ride western. I don't like western - I don't know enough about it to have more than a general dislike for it, probably based on my location being so heavily english oriented that a western rider is so unusual as to be freaky. Plus my chosen discipline is dressage, so pretty much polar opposite to what my personal view of western is. However, that is my view, and I am entitled to it.

What I am not entitled to, though, is to go into the western section of the forum, and tell people in there that their opinion doesn't matter. I can't go in there, and start telling people that western is not the way to go. That is not what that section of the forum is for.

In the same way, the "Colors and Genetics" section of the forum is not the place for people to come and say that colour and genetics don't matter. If they don't matter to you (collective), then you (collective) should not be posting in this subforum. 

Also NRHA - my irritation is not entirely with you. It is with the constant flow of people through this board that post that maxim over and over - "colour doesn't matter". It does matter in here.


----------



## smrobs

Chiilaa said:


> I don't ride western. I don't like western - I don't know enough about it to have more than a general dislike for it, probably based on my location being so heavily english oriented that a western rider is so unusual as to be freaky. Plus my chosen discipline is dressage, so pretty much polar opposite to what my personal view of western is. However, that is my view, and I am entitled to it.


Well, I'm going to step into the room for a minute and talk about some random thing that is completely off topic from the rest of the discussion :lol:.

Chiilaa, just for grins and giggles, if you're ever in my part of the world, swing buy and I might just be able to change your mind (at least part of it) about western :wink:.


----------



## Chiilaa

smrobs said:


> Well, I'm going to step into the room for a minute and talk about some random thing that is completely off topic from the rest of the discussion :lol:.
> 
> Chiilaa, just for grins and giggles, if you're ever in my part of the world, swing buy and I might just be able to change your mind (at least part of it) about western :wink:.


Gladly


----------



## nrhareiner

Fair enough. Although you need to look at the NH subsection of the training forum. If you really want to take about different opinions on things.

Again I am not at all saying that genetics are not importent I was more refering to the post about how Arabs are reg. very few colors yet at the end of the day that does not matter. Does not change anything.

Also to your analogy. Your opinion is based on lack of knowlage. Mine is not. I also use a lot of Dressage in my western riding so I have some knowlage there too. The mare who just was picked up here tonight is a big WB mare who is showing quite well 2nd level dressage and about ready to show in the next level and she is not even 10 yet. Very nice mare.

Again I can under stand what you are getting at and what I said was not ment to say that these things are not importent to know and under stand. For the simple reason that it gets poeple under standing how things work with genetics b/c it is something they can see. Once you understand how things work you can apply them to other things.


----------



## dbarabians

Chillaa if someone comes to this subject on this forum and suggest that all the post are irrelevant, their purpose is simply to argue.
This is their sole intention.
Thus, it speaks volumes about them.
Your knowledge is without a doubt superior to most members.
You should be secure in your knowledge and you have no need to ever defend it.
Especially to someone that is only seeking confrontation.
Ignore them. Shalom


----------

