# Sundance's Breed? New pics.



## dominoschica (Sep 1, 2009)

Hard to tell from the pics but he just looks like a Paint to me.


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

If he is infact gaited or has some gaited blood i'd say morgan as well but to me he looks like a QH or Paint. Those are the main 2 breeds in my area so just about everyone with horses has got one & not all of them are chunky. 
Also, just because he parks out in the back doesnt mean that he gets it from any gaited breed influence. That could just be the way he's built.


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## horsecrazy84 (Mar 20, 2011)

He rode again this evening and I got a video of him loping and trotting and lunging so I'll try to get that uploaded tomorrow.


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## aneternalflame (May 25, 2009)

Parking out is a trained thing. If your horse does it just loose it can indicate health problems.. so I'd suggest getting a vet out if he does that regularly, to be safe.

If the horse is gaited, it is most probably not a Morgan. There are only a few gaited Morgans, the vast majority are not.. knee action does not equal gaited. 

How old is he? That would influence my guesses.. because him looking like he does as a youngster would mean something totally different than him looking like he does as an adult.. If he's young (under, say, 4) OR if he is under say, 6-7 BUT was malnourished as a young horse, he may well have a good amount of filling out to do still and may end up looking very different in a few years..


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## horsecrazy84 (Mar 20, 2011)

From looking at his teeth he's probably 4 1/2 or so. All we know about him is he was left in a pasture with other stallions and mares and not really messed with. He was a little ribby when we got him but not anything bad.
He "parks" out on his own but it's not all the time. 
I noticed this morning when hubby rode, at a lope it almost appeared that he was cross cantering...on one lead in the front and the opposite in rear but I looked up a MO Foxtrotter loping and it looks very similar to what he looks like, but I'd have to find a way to do his lope in slow motion to see what exactly he's doing lol. He has a VERY nice lope, collected and not strung out at all. Still working on videos but it is coming


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## Indigosblue (May 9, 2011)

he might be some mix of all the stuff suggested. I don't think he's purebred Morgan, he doesn't really look like one. Paint i could go with, but i've seen paints look like everything from drafts to Arabians, so it's always a wild guess. He does look nice, hope you enjoy him!


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## horsecrazy84 (Mar 20, 2011)

Here's the video, finally.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

He's quite a pretty boy isn't he. Who knows. He could be a mix of anything really. Horses often park when they are uncomfortable or have been trained to do so.

I would like to mention something though. Are you really keeping a stud horse in with barbed wire? This is incredibly dangerous for all horses, but much worse for a stud, if he ever decides to go visiting. 

Lizzie


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

He looks like a regular grade paint to me. I don't see anything in his movement on the video to suggest any gaited breeding in there. He also doesn't look 4 to me.

On the part of your video with his second ride, it did look like he was doing something awkward with his hind legs at one point, but that almost looked more like discomfort or not being used to the weight of a rider than anything else. If he is parking without having been trained for it, I would suggest having him looked at by a vet. It could be he is having difficulties with urinating, I've seen horses (geldings) take that stance when they have urinary issues. Bonus, you can arrange to have the vet geld him when he comes out!


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## horsecrazy84 (Mar 20, 2011)

Judging by his teeth, which I also posted a thread about and people said he was probably 4-5 years old. Why doesn't he look 4? Do you mean he looks older, younger?
We've had him since October and only know that the woman who gave him to us for free got him because the man who had him was going to shoot him. He got a few horses as a package deal but only wanted one so she took the rest to find them homes. He was just in a big pasture with atleast one other stallion, some mares and some foals. So we don't know anything about his past.

He's never been lame or sore and seems to move the same way under saddle as he does loose.

Yes, he is a stud and yes, that is barbed wire fence but he never ever tries to go through. The fence was there so didn't see any reason to change it. Sundance isn't a typical stallion. I can leave him loose in the yard and he won't go anywhere, he LOVES people and especially my 3 year old cousin who goes out with me in the pasture. He doesn't get aggressive at all.

He never has any problem urinating either but we are planning on gelding him.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Sorry horsecrzy84, but barbed wire fencing = badly injured or dead horses. You cannot guarantee your horse will never go through or over the fence. It will only need to happen once and you will remember this.

Lizzie


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## horsecrazy84 (Mar 20, 2011)

I've always used barbed wire fencing. MY horses respect that fence and I have NEVER had a horse get injured by it, I have had a couple get injured from woven wire. That is worse IMO than barbed wire. If they mess with the woven wire they can get a hoof or leg caught and I've seen that type do more damage than barbed wire. My horses respect fence. Barbed wire is very common actually and since it was already here it will probably stay up. They are also on 8 acres so they don't crowd the fence.
Thanks for the concern.


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## luvsmygirls (Mar 3, 2009)

i grew up on a morgan farm and i dont think he looks morgan at all. i think you have it right and he is probably a missouri fox trotter or a trotter mix. he is a dead ringer for my friends mare who is a trotter.


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

Watching the video he looks like a typical QH or Paint to me.
As for him being a stud, my aunt's stallions didn't actually start becoming "studdy" until they were five or six. Then all of a sudden one day one was trying to kill the other or a gelding, so just keep an eye on him. It will help of course if there are no mares in the area.


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## horsecrazy84 (Mar 20, 2011)

The only mare close is Chanti and on the back side of the property a few horses are put out in that field but he's never bothered them or wanted to go over visiting. We got offered a free stallion but I said no way because I don't want any fighting going on. All other stallions I've been around have acted like stallions at a young age. Sundance had been around mares where he was before, and even when Chanti is in heat he doesn't change his behavior towards us any.


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

He might not change his behavior towards you. One stallion i worked with who at 5 years old could be ridden bareback in a halter by a beginner right in the mare field & that's when he _was_ breeding in the spring. You bring another stallion nearby or even a gelding & he'd try everything including jumping fences just to pick a fight with them. Never showed agression to people, though so like i said just keep an eye out. It might not develope right away and i'm not saying he will get mean or anything (many studs dont who are worked with & not just kept in a paddock or stall) you just have to be more aware of who & whats around with a stallion  Also if you go riding with someone else.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I vote grade horse of unknown type.




horsecrazy84 said:


> He "parks" out on his own but it's not all the time.
> I noticed this morning when hubby rode, at a lope it almost appeared that he was cross cantering...on one lead in the front and the opposite in rear


Cross cantering can also be a sign of an issue that makes it more comfortable for the horse to canter that way.

Between that and the parked out stance I think there is some pain issue going on that has not been diagnosed.



If you do not know his breeding why are you not having him gelded just for the long term benefits it will have for the poor guy?


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## horsecrazy84 (Mar 20, 2011)

I never said we weren't going to geld him. I'm not sure what he was doing in the canter but another time he loped and it looked right.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

TWH, I'd not canter him for a while until he's more balanced. He is definitely gaited and you don't want to lose that by rushing him. My twh has a hard time on the lunge because of the lateral gait. It's easier on a trot horse.I lunge mine at liberty so he can pick how much room he needs to move comfortably, otherwise he seems to almost scramble.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm with Indy and the others who said grade paint or QH. 

That horse isn't anywhere close to being gaited, and sure as heck doesn't look anything like a TWH, MFT, or any of the other gaited breeds. 

There's something 'off' about him, too. Can't tell if it's just in his rear end, or something else is bothering him as well.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

I have grown up around TWH, Paso Finos, and Spotted Saddle horses, and.... I see nothing gaited about this horse.

I vote grade QH.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Horsecrazy, why do you keep posting threads asking what breed people think this horse is? Do you think we will come up with a new opinion if you keep asking?


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

My thoughts? He is a Paint cross with a sore hind end and he is not gaited, whatever you want him to be. I also have never heard anything good about barbed wire.


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## horsecrazy84 (Mar 20, 2011)

I posted a thread a while back but I didn't have a video and now I did. You can't really see anything by pictures and I posted a thread in the gaited breeds section because more gaited folks go there, thought they might see something different that's all. Fencing is just personal opinion. He has never acted sore or off in any way, nothing unusual anyway.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

He looks very - very - young and undeveloped. The first thing I thought when I saw him trot out was that his hind end is very wonky... I really didn't get past that and the fact that he looks so darn young - in my opinion, not nearly developed enough to be carrying that saddle and a grown man. 
I vote for maybe paint or QH.


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## horsecrazy84 (Mar 20, 2011)

He isn't conditioned but he is definitely at least 4. I'm not sure if he was underfed as a youngster. He was ribby when we got him and has put on weight and muscle. He carries his rider fine but I agree he does need more muscle tone.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

horsecrazy84 said:


> He has never acted sore or off in any way, nothing unusual anyway.


That you are willing to admit you see, obviously.

How many people have said that parked out stance is not something normal and it most likely is the sign of soreness?
How many people have said he does not move right and that is most likely a lameness issue?
You are the only who seems to think he has never acted sore or off in any way.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I went back and looked at the video you posted of him in your thread back in April and he looks not right behind when being lunged in that video too.


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## horsecrazy84 (Mar 20, 2011)

I'll have to watch the videos again and see if I see something. Several have said parking out can indicate pain but it could also be a taught thing. Like I've said before, we know nothing about his past other than he was loose in a pasture with other horses. I know of several people who have non gaited horses and they still teach them to park out for mounting and such. I could get my registered QH mare to park out when I asked her to. I'll take another look at the videos. In the video of him loping he's coming toward me and it'd be hard to see anything "off" in the rear there. I wanted to get a video of him going straight across but didn't work out that way.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

NO horse I have known that has been trained to park out does randomly park out in the pasture. 
A horse that stands all camped out like that on their own is not doing something it was trained to do. It is standing that way because it is uncomfortable to stand properly.

I watched the video you posted in April of him just walking and he moves funky behind even walking.


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## horsecrazy84 (Mar 20, 2011)

Hmm, he's only parked out on his own a few times. he did it once when we first put the saddle pad on him but I've seen lots of green horses do that at first, he did it once when he was at the fence and a couple times under saddle, only once with hubby riding him. I just can't see anything off. I watch him walk and trot and just can't see anything. The only difference in his walk and Chanti's is that he has a really long stride and oversteps himself once he gets walking.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

In the photos you posted in the past (I have not looked at the video close enough to notice) where you stated he over steps he was not tracking up under himself at all.


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## horsecrazy84 (Mar 20, 2011)

He oversteps his front tracks by a good 3-4 inches when he's really walking out, you can see it in the video of him being rode and you can see it in some pics where he's walking.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

horsecrazy84 said:


> He oversteps his front tracks by a good 3-4 inches when he's really walking out, you can see it in the video of him being rode and you can see it in some pics where he's walking.


This post with this photo is what I was referring to.



horsecrazy84 said:


> He has an overstride also


That is clearing not tracking up!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> This post with this photo is what I was referring to.
> 
> 
> 
> That is clearing not tracking up!


\
Doesn't tracking up mean that the hind steps into the place where the fore foot was? In the walk, as this photo, one would have to imagine where the fore was when it was on the ground, because it is now ahead (normal) and the rear is moving forward. If I look at this picture, I can easily imagine that the rear right is stpping into exactly the place where the front right just was.

At the trot, it would be easier to see the tracking up because the rear right would be almost touching the front right coming back, becasue as diagonal pairs the reach toward each other every other step.


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## horsecrazy84 (Mar 20, 2011)

What's clearing? I have never heard of that in reference to how a horse walks. That back left foot will land about 4" in front of the front. That's how he's always walked.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

HC84, nobody likes to hear that their horse may be sore and looks off. That this many people see it should tell you more than anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

horsecrazy84 said:


> What's clearing? I have never heard of that in reference to how a horse walks. That back left foot will land about 4" in front of the front. That's how he's always walked.


 
Horsecrazy,

I , too, am a bit confused regarding the talk of "tracking up". Tracking up means that the hind foot reaches forward at least to where the front foot was placed. Over reaching means it tracks further than where the fore was. I think in the walk it is pretty normal to reach a bit beyond the print made by the fore, but in the trot, the rear should reach just TO the front, no farther. Because if it reaches farther, then it will strike the front foot.

I don't know why some folks are talking about overreaching and tracking up. I wanted clarification from them.

I am not seeing lameness in your horse either. I watched the video twice and I did not see lameness. His movement might be a bit unsteady under rider, and he did hollow out and dash forward in the "trot" under saddle portion of the video, but this could be just being green, new to a rider and/or a saddle that doesn't fit his unmuscled back. 
I may be missing something, I admit to not having near as much experience as many of the members here. But I do not see lameness.

As regards the other matters, I have no real comment. I didnt' read the other threads. I think maybe you should have gelded him sooner, but you wiill have to wait. I do hope you don't end up with a foal that is an accident. It's kind of like the many puppies and kittens that are 'accidently' made. There are so many of them out there, and folks would rather buy a purebred. but , if you are certain it would be YOURs forever, then that is your choice.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Obvious headbobbing lameness, no. Genera stiffness and a wonky hind end that DOES indicate a problem: yes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

Heinz 57?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> Obvious headbobbing lameness, no. Genera stiffness and a wonky hind end that DOES indicate a problem: yes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. Add the parking out funny when standing relaxed.


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## aneternalflame (May 25, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> NO horse I have known that has been trained to park out does randomly park out in the pasture.
> A horse that stands all camped out like that on their own is not doing something it was trained to do. It is standing that way because it is uncomfortable to stand properly.


This is true. I grew up in a Morgan show barn where literally every horse including weanlings (for in hand) were trained to park out. None of them did it on their own in the pasture or in their stalls.. unless of course it was a male urinating but that is very different. They would do it with a rider or when cued in hand. Standing camped out like that with no prompting is not normal, even for a horse trained to do it.. 
Horsecrazy, I am not commenting on anything else, but in your OP you say that he does it on his own.. then you backtrack and say it's only been a couple of times.. but even in your standing still shot of him in his field, he is doing it.. I really do urge you to get it checked out. If it is an underlying spinal issue or other bone issue, riding him could be seriously exacerbating it, and you could potentially end up with emergency vet bills versus just a standard check up.. I figure it makes more sense to pay a smaller fee now than to end up with a potentially huge one in the near future.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Your horse is grade, and lame. I don't know why you post asking for opinions just so you can disagree with them. If you don't value anyone's opinions and feel confident in your own knowledge, then don't ask for the opinions.

Maybe as you don't want to pay for the vet, you could email the video to them and ask if the horse looks sore?


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

If you watch the video carefully, this horse has a problem in both stifles and something extra going wrong in her right hind. In general, this horse moves short behind, doesn't even come close to tracking up, and sinks a little in the hip each time he takes a step. It's signifigant that he does not travel straight, but prefers to carry his head and shoulders to the right and on a separate track of his hips and hindquarters. 

In addition, he has a pronounced flinch each time he brings his right hind forward and steps off. 

I suspect ongoing stifle and/or hip problems on both sides, more pronounced on the right. 

I am not a vet, and I don't play one on TV, but that is what I see as a moderately experienced observer. 

I am taking into consideration that the horse is green, unshod behind and working on hard, uneven ground. However, the things I observe stay consistent despite gait and direction and cannot be completely dismissed.


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## horsecrazy84 (Mar 20, 2011)

Thank you maura, for doing what nobody else has attempted! All this time I was saying "I don't see the soreness,etc" and you have actually pointed out specifics. That helps a lot! That is much nicer than me being bashed and saying "why am I starting threads asking opinions"..umm...I haven't posted any more nor have I kept asking what breed, I HAVE been trying to point out that I can't see anything off. Instead of bashing me why don't you people try to point something out???Jeesh. Thank you maura!


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Parking out can be a sign of hoof pain (this was the first symptom of my gelding's navicular) or more often back pain.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Jeesh indeed, must be all our faults that this is the only one of three threads that has not been deleted or massively edited by the mods. 

Everyone has said there is something going on with the rear end of the horse. Your mare looks worse by the way, in the video you posted previously. Close to really limping lame, but dead lame all the same. I would suggest that you don't know as much about lameness as you think you do.


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## horsecrazy84 (Mar 20, 2011)

My mare has nothing to do with this. Yes, everyone has said something was off but nobody could pinpoint what exactly, so nobody was really helping me. But btw, Chanti was lame because she hurt her tendon, which is why even now she's still being rested. She's not lame now but tendon injuries take a long time to heal. I'm not nearly as stupid as everyone seems to think.


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## horsecrazy84 (Mar 20, 2011)

We've tested his feet, he's not ouchy at all, and he doesn't show any indication of it being navicular. He's also never shown any symptoms other than parking out at odd times of back pain.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Navicular is diagnosed through progressive nerve blocking. Hoof testers don't come anywhere near being an accurate diagnostic tool for navicular. 
Parking out can be a stifle issue as well.


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## Shananigan (Apr 8, 2009)

> We've tested his feet, he's not ouchy at all, and he doesn't show any indication of it being navicular.


Okay, so his feet don't hurt. Good. What about the stifle and hip pain that Maura distinctly pointed out (and many other people pointed out more generally too). 



> He's also never shown any symptoms other than parking out at odd times of back pain.


I haven't read this entire thread, but what I can see is you have been a bit defensive about him being in pain. However, right here you say he doesn't show "any symptoms other than parking out _at odd times of back pain._" Parking out IS a symptom though! So he randomly has back pain? I believe this should be checked out. One symptom is quite enough and it seems (as you now realize thanks to Maura) that you have noticed quite a few more. You don't have to be defensive if he is in pain, you probably didn't cause it OR you might have, still I'm sure it was accidental. No one will look down on that too much really. Just as long as you have a vet out there and check him out to see what's going on. People will look down on you though if you get defensive about his obvious pain and don't do anything about it! I'm sure you don't want to see you're lovely boy hurting. Just have him checked out!


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## vikki92 (Dec 18, 2010)

*Just call your vet and have him checked out, is that so hard to do.*
as for the barbwire I have to agree I have had horses my whole life and so has my dad, and the only fenceing we have had is barbwire, and out of the the many many years we have had horses, zero injuries caused by the barbwire.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

vikki92 said:


> *
> as for the barbwire I have to agree I have had horses my whole life and so has my dad, and the only fenceing we have had is barbwire, and out of the the many many years we have had horses, zero injuries caused by the barbwire.*


*

Well then you are a very lucky person, I have to say.

Have you had studs in barbed wire? Foals in barbed wire?

In my personal life I have seen three horses severely injured on barbed wire. All regular old mares and geldings. That's three too many, IMO, and a risk I'm not willing to take. Even more so for a foal or stallion.
Posted via Mobile Device*


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Call a vet. Something is clearly not right.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

hc84, 

I'm glad that explanation helped. Please remember that the other posters were also just reporting *what they saw* as well. That they didn't describe it in as much detail doesn't mean they were being purposefully difficult or withholding information, it just means that they haven't spent quite as much time analyzing how horses go. An experienced person saying "there's somthing wonky behind" is still valid, thought I understand it's frustrating not to see what they see. On a scale of 1 to 5, one being sound and 5 being headbobbing lame, this horse is a 2.5.

Here's a few more things to consider - I understand why you asked about gaited. Gaited horses often have that extra sinking in the hips behind when they gait similiar to what you observe in your horse. However, you horse is clearly trotting - diagonal pairs, two beat gait. Just because he isn't trotting out with a lot of suspension doesn't mean you can't discern two beat, diaganol movement instead of a 4 beat running walk. Also, that extra motion behind on a gaited horse is produced when the horse really steps up under himslef behind. Your horse is not moving up under himself at all. 

Parking out - horses trained to park out extend their fore legs as well as their hind and lower their bodies quite a bit. Your horse just extends the hind. It's a classic posture for pain/protecting a sore or injured part. 

I don't know who brought up navicular; yes, that type of stance can be associated with navicular, but navicular in the hind and not in the front is exceedingly rare. 

Finally, it's entirely possible this horse vetted sound when you purchased him months again and this has developed since. 

If you're still reluctant to call the vet, I have a couple of suggestions. Give the horse three days completely off and give him bute (1 - 2 grams) all three days. Lunge or ride the horse the fourth day and have someone video. If the symptoms are markedly better you know you have pain and inflammation causing the symptoms. 

You can also perform hock flexions with the help of an experienced person, perhaps your farrier. Personally, I think he's so sore you'll have trouble performing the flexion as he'll start to resist pretty quickly. However, I think one 60 second hock flexion will have him hopping off on the flexed leg for many strides. 

Good luck.


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## horsecrazy84 (Mar 20, 2011)

Thanks maura for the explanation. He does overstep his front feet once he really starts walking, that I know for sure. He doesn't do it at the trot. He's had a week off now with no work. It's been too hot to ride so I've just let them hang out in the pasture without bugging them. Even with going back and looking closely at the videos I still didn't see what maura was pointing out. I've experienced more front end lameness so for me it's easier to spot I guess. I'm not saying he isn't off, I'm just saying he looks and moves the same and acts the same as he did from day one.


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## Magaidh (Apr 13, 2011)

horsecrazy84 said:


> I'm not saying he isn't off, I'm just saying he looks and moves the same and acts the same as he did from day one.


Perhaps he's been off since day one. He looked odd to me as well, even though I'm no where near as experienced at pinpointing lameness as Maura. Her bute suggestion is a great idea, why not try that? Then you'll have a better idea and can go from there.


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## vikki92 (Dec 18, 2010)

Sunny said:


> Well then you are a very lucky person, I have to say.
> 
> Have you had studs in barbed wire? _Foals_ in barbed wire?
> 
> ...


Yes in my life time of horses (not counting my dads) we have had 3 stallions(geldings now), and about 4 foals. and thats just in mylife time.
and as i said zero injuries. we have the most problem with sink holes & gropher holes, haveing to cover them up all the time.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Then I will say again, you are very lucky.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

There is a very good reason, why Animal Planet, Fugly and RFDTV have all made many references to, or produced shows on the horrors of barbed wire fencing, but not on other types of fencing, gopher holes etc. It is because of the horrific injuries caused. Several years ago, I heard or read somewhere, that roughly 400 horses are put down yearly, due to barbed wire injuries. Hundreds of others no doubt, cost their owners dearly in vet bills, while they heal. 

Just a few months ago on another forum, a lady lost her mare and foal, when they ran through a barbed wire fence, when being chased by a loose dog which got into the pasture. Devastating. Keeping ANY stallion within barbed wire fencing, should be illegal. Stallions are notorious for jumping fencing to visit mares or just go looking. 

I'll bet that all those who have lost a horse or have had to deal with a horribly injured horse because of barbed wire, also said before the incident, "Oh we've had barbed wire for years and never had a problem."

Lizzie


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

A vet would tell you, likely in a few minutes, what the problem is.


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## vikki92 (Dec 18, 2010)

FeatheredFeet said:


> There is a very good reason, why Animal Planet, Fugly and RFDTV have all made many references to, or produced shows on the horrors of barbed wire fencing, but not on other types of fencing, gopher holes etc. It is because of the horrific injuries caused. Several years ago, I heard or read somewhere, that roughly 400 horses are put down yearly, due to barbed wire injuries. Hundreds of others no doubt, cost their owners dearly in vet bills, while they heal.
> 
> Just a few months ago on another forum, a lady lost her mare and foal, when they ran through a barbed wire fence, when being chased by a loose dog which got into the pasture. Devastating. Keeping ANY stallion within barbed wire fencing, should be illegal. Stallions are notorious for jumping fencing to visit mares or just go looking.
> 
> ...


 Im not saying that others have not had deaths or injuries becasue of barbedwire fencing and im not saying its not possible for my horses to get harmed from it, Im just saying that out of my dads & my years with horses we have never had death or injuries casued by barbedwire fenceing.


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