# Classical Zettl teaching Parellis



## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Parelli tosses out the classical three-point seat (crotch & both seatbones) in favor of the "balance point", which is one point only, situated somewhere between the seatbones. Parelli also teaches flexing one's spine convexly backwards whilst riding, which tips the pelvis backwards, which is against classical riding, and slanting one's shoulders in certain movements, which is also anti-classical, and says nothing about the classical position of vertical ear-shoulder-hip-heel alignment. How, then, does a classical horseman such as Sir Zettl teach Parelli's? I know of no explanation from Parelli's; perhaps someone here can help me to understand this apparent contradiction. Thanks!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Where is Mr. Zettl teaching the Parellis? Could you clarify. I am a bit confused.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Walter Zettl has been giving dressage lessons to Pat & Linda I'm guesstimating for a couple of years, although Pat may have dropped out, because after the initial several lessons & disclosure to the world that they were occurring, I only heard Linda's accounts now & then of her solo lessons.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Sorry but IMO the parellis are arrogant and need swift kick up the ****. Thier cult like following and incredibly pushy ways have done more harm then good. 

What they want you to do with horses results in confused, bargy and aggressive horses who have never been taugh basic manners. Look on project horses and the bast majority of the have been parelli-ised by people who are generaly novices, have becom entrenched in the parelli ways and not learned that with horses you cant do things in a text book way because horses don't read textbooks. 

Sorry but whilst some of thier methods can be used by experianced horsepeople and used to benefit the horse, the vast majority is just junk sold to the masses to make money.

I have a very very low oppinion of the parellis themselves, perticularly after the horrificthings they did in thier display at the east of england showground!


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Actually we "ride differently" in Freestyle vs. Finesse. Freestyle is more relaxed, going with the flow and flowing with the go, while in Finesse we engage our bodies and "tighten up" to help our horses do the same. I am here at the Parelli ranch in Florida right now and a few weeks ago Linda did a Game of Contact course that I was able to watch and she discussed our body positioning and how important it is. It was a phenominal 3 days. 

Pat has not dropped out of lessons, Walter was just here for 3 days giving lessons to Pat, Linda, and top students each of those 3 days. It was absolutely wonderful.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

So Spirithorse, can you better explain this "balance point" theory?

I have always been of the mindset that the vertical alignment and three point seat are ideal for all riding. Can you please try and explain in a very basic manner for me? I'm trying to understand and can't really wrap my head around it.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Parelli teaches you to access your balance point in order to be more balanced, have your seat be the heaviest part of you, and to make it more comfortable for your horse. If you sit on your seatbones that actually pitches your weight forward, which is why a lot of times when the horse stops suddenly the rider will fall forward. It's also uncomfortable to the horse's back. When you access your balance point, which is a spot about at the base of your tailbone, your feet feel light and your seat feels heavy. This is what you want. You are NOT slouching and you are NOT leaning back so far where you could rest your elbow on your horse's butt. Your shoulders remain up and back (no hollow back though) but all you do is rotate your pelvis. When you are on your balance point you are very much anchored to the saddle, the horse can go, stop or turn suddenly and you will remain much more balanced in comparison to if your weight was on your seatbones. 

When riding with Finesse, your position changes in some ways in order to help your horse engage more. Does that help?


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Sort of yeah though I thought one of the points of the seat bone and crotch was for balance. 

Does anyone other than the Parellis teach this? I've never heard of this before. 

Could you show me a picture of someone riding to this ideal, I'd like to be able to compare it to the more classical seat I am used to so maybe I can get a visual to better understand.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I would love a picture too. This is the first I've heard of it, though I'm definitely not up on all the newest learnings/techniques.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Spirithorse, I was hoping you'd offer feedback here; thanks for what you've said so far. From your words, the first clue for me is that Parelli goes to a more vertical position for "proper" dressage riding. It has to be that way, because it seems to me that so much of dressage would be impossible (pirouettes come to mind) with rider in balance point seat. 

To clarify further, classical seat is atop the 14th vertebrae, which puts the rider up at the wither. The 14th vertebrae is the strongest point of the horse's back, & behind it the back gets progressively weaker. Having learned this, I'm concerned that the balance point seat, which not only tilts the pelvis back but is situated behind the 14th vertebrae, is hard on the horse. Any thoughts, Spirithorse?

Oh, yes: the concentration of weight in the seat is the third thing that is of concern to me; classical riding doesn't agree with this, to my knowledge, but rather puts weight onto thighs & the torso is to be in an upwards energy flow & vertical position.

Any help on these issues is greatly appreciated!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Is this "balance point" a physical place or a mental goal? I mean, other than the seatbones, there is only the front of the pelvis or the tailbone for bearing weight. That's just plain anatomy. AND, if you look at the pelvic structure of men and women, it is MUCH easier for men to round the lower back and ride on their tailbone (or "ride on your pockets" as many western trainers say) Women's tailbone doesn't come nearly as much under them. Conversely, it is much easier for women to arch the lower back and roll forward onto the the third point; the pubic bone.
What I read about the three point seat was by Sylvia Loch, and she is careful to say that though it involves some contact of the pubic area, it is not exactly a perfectly divided triad. The seatbones carry most, and of course much weight is dispursed over the thigh, too, with a much lesser amount on the pubic bone.

I don't have any personal beef against the Parellis. I don't know any horses "ruined" by them. I appreciate the gateway they have started which has brought many people into a new way of thinking about their relationship with horses. 
The thing that I have seen is that by doing things in a fixed order and learning and teaching the horse by rote, one becomes dulled to opportunities of FEEL, things where the horse might really need something else rather than the same old "games" in the same old order. AND if you ask many Parelli people WHY do you do this or that game, they are not able to answer except to say that it leads to the next one.
But for many people the systematic approach is very comforting, and I think effective. I am sure that I could learn from Parelli folks, as long as I keep my mind from slamming shut.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Tinyliny, the balance point is a physical spot. In my Level 2 dvd, Linda says that the 3-point classical position is "out", and that students are to sit on one point only, the balance point. She says it's "somewhere between your seatbones" & that she won't, for propriety's sake, point out the spot on herself or anyone else.

Thanks for sharing that males' & females' tailbones end in different places; I'd forgotten about that. Probably the whole deal was invented by lazy male riders - too hard to sit up straight!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't mean to sound like a whiny feminist, but it is true that most riding equipment and instruction is based on what fits the male anatomy, as it has been the dominant one in riding since forever. But, it means that women struggle to do the 'correct" form, not realizing that it's naturally easier for men due to the shape of the pelvis. 
another big one is that women's hips sockets face more outward rather than straight ahead, like men's. Thus it is harder for the woman to have her legs come straight down the horse's sides with inside of the thigh and knee on. women tend to roll the knee more outward and struggle to get the thigh vertical and back under them.
This article is long, but it is fascinating. when you look at the diagram of teh male and female pelvis , as the saddle sees them, it is shocking how different we are! Like two different species one might think.

http://www.equinestudies.org/whos_built_best_2008/whos_built_best_2008_pdf1.pdf


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Tinyliny, you say it's harder for men to be more vertical (easy to sit on pockets), yet it's harder for women to get legs on the vertical. That seems like a nice division of difficulty!  I'd love to read the article, but it has that little box which doesn't respond to my clicks; can you tell me how to get in?


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## mooney (Sep 20, 2010)

This is really interesting to hear, but everytime you guys mention sitting on your tail bone I think when I had to ride in a too narrow saddle. I sat on my tail bone all right and couldn't sit on anything hard for a week!! (I diffently have wider hips) I heard about the "balence point" and never didn't really understand it though. I know it woman saddles? that are made for our pelvis it would be hard to ride other than three point. But maybe that it just me and my saddle?


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Saddles are designed for men. there are a couple of saddles that are designed specificly for women, they are all dressage saddles.


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## Fluffy Pony (May 2, 2010)

There are a few western saddles made for woman also...


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Spirithorse, since you're there at Parelli's, it'd be awesome if you could ask them about this! Where _they_ got the balance point/behind the 14th vertebrae/weighted seat teaching is of interest to me (& probably others here), as well. Also, if you could confirm that Parelli's sit in classical seat when in class with Sir Zettl, it'd be really clarifying!

Also, if Linda'd draw a simple diagram with a spot on the balance point, it'd clear up confusion as to its location! Thanks!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Hmmm. I must admit I am a bit confused, but thoroughly interested in understanding this topic!

I am not really sure how I ride, compared to the two models spoken of here.

I find the biggest factor in how I ride depends on the shape of the seat of my saddle (I ride western). I finally found the most comfortable saddle for my body. It's a Wade style with a "Steele" tree. The reason I mention this, is because I have been through, I dunno, probably 10-15 saddles in my riding years and they all sit you a bit differently. 

I like a saddle with a nice pocket that neither sets me on my tail bone OR my crotch. I want a saddle with a seat that lets me have a nice low spot to sit in and doesn't try to force me to sit a certain way. In other words, it doesn't get in my way or force me into a particular posture. I always think, if a bareback horse is comfortable, why can't the saddle mirror the natural shape of a horse's back? 

I have had saddles that lean me back and make my tail bone ache. And I've ridden in saddles where my crotch starts to go numb. And one saddle (a flex tree) gave me such back pain that I had to get injections. So don't underestimate how the shape of the saddle affects your riding position. I went through saddles like socks until I finally found one that agreed with me and fit my horse like a glove. When you finally find the "perfect" saddle it is bliss.  (See photo of my bliss saddle below!)

Now that I have found my personal, perfect saddle (which comes down to finding the right tree) I kind of ride perfectly centered on my seat bones. I can lean forward or backward freely. I am not sure if this is the 3 point, traditional seat, or the balance point mentioned by Parelli (I am not a Parelli person, just going by what I have read here). 

I almost think I am riding based on the balance point theory, because I only keep enough weight in my stirrups to avoid loosing them. As a matter of fact, at the end of a long trail ride, my right leg (which is a tad shorter than my left) will frequently wiggle it's way out of the stirrup because I am very relaxed and just riding on balance, not with much weight in the stirrup.

So how do you tell which type of rider you are? I have never had any real lessons, but I find that over years of riding, I ride with fairly long stirrups, not much weight in them, and I'm balancing on my seat bones. Does that make me Parelli-esque, or Classical?


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Northern said:


> Spirithorse, I was hoping you'd offer feedback here; thanks for what you've said so far. From your words, the first clue for me is that Parelli goes to a more vertical position for "proper" dressage riding. It has to be that way, because it seems to me that so much of dressage would be impossible (pirouettes come to mind) with rider in balance point seat.
> 
> *Even when you are on the balance point you are still in a vertical position. You merely rotate your pelvis back a little, everything else stays as it should. It's like english on top, western on bottom, if you want to look at it that way. When riding in Finesse you "hover" above your horse, so to speak, to encourage the horse's back to come up under your seat. You engage your core, think about everything going down through your heel (but we don't think heels down bc that creates brace), etc....so your position does change, HOWEVER you still access this balance point. It can be done, even during Finesse, but because we "hover" to encourage more engagement you are less secure if the horse stops or turns suddenly, but the rider should have a good enough independent seat that this shouldn't be a concern.*
> 
> ...


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> *......**And if riding in the classical seat is good, then why do so many horses have sore backs? I have yet to see one horse have a sore back from being ridden with the balance point.*


My personal theory is most saddles don't fit the horse nearly as good as their riders think they do!


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Spirithorse, thanks for more info. I think that Parellis are in "semi-classical" seat when in class with Sir Z, by your description (more weight on thighs rather than the heavy seat so that the horse can round up under). Yet, you say that the pelvis tilted back is kept.

I'm still unclear on whether Parelli's sit behind 14th vertebrae in the "more horse in front of you" balance point seat during Z class--??


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

As for the article on the male and female pelvis, go to Equinestudies.org
You'd find it there. It is written by Dr. Deb Bennet.

Trailrider, I love your Wade tree saddle! Who is the maker? Looks fabulous. Most western saddles put the rider a bit more into the "chair" seat. Look at the point where the fender hangs from and the point where your seat bones plug into the saddel (its' balance point, usually the deepest place in the seat) The distance between these two places will dictate how well you can get you legs under you , along with how angled or not is the saddle seat. Yours is not as far out from the balance point as most western saddles, but farther out than most dressage saddles, or perhaps close to them. 
From your description, I think you must be riding in a good, classicallly balanced seat.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

THR, I am in the same boat as you are. I am wading through this trying to make heads and tails out of it (I've never had a "proper" lesson, I just grew up riding in whatever position was the most comfortable, secure, and balanced for me).

I have to agree that the saddle type and tree style (in western) can make all the difference. I have found my favorite is the Association tree. It is very similar to your Wade tree except the swells are bigger like you see on bronc riding saddles. It has a wonderful little pocket that keeps me nice and secure while still giving me the mobility to change my seat as needed. It has a slightly narrower base that doesn't stress my thighs at all, whereas if I were to ride in my Dad's saddle (which is very flat and very wide), I am immediately uncomfortable and after a short time, in agony.

The different trees will also change how you can comfortably sit a horse. In my Dad's saddle, I have an extreme chair seat because that's the only way I can physically sit any movement at all. In my older saddle with a simple roping tree, I sit farther back and have more of a chair seat than I do in my newer saddle.

Just for referance on what I was talking about, this is my older roping saddle









And this is the same horse but with me in the newer Association saddle









Maybe someone can explain it a little more for laymen like me LOL.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Tinyliny, thanks for directive.

Smrobs, you've had so very many hours in the saddle & you work on a real working ranch, it makes me wince that you call yourself a layman!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

LOL, but I _am_. I can sit a horse and ride pretty well, but I am completely clueless as far as the "proper" terms and descriptions go.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Don't think that knowing the terms equates with being a good horsewoman!

Tinyliny, I still get the little box, from Deb's article page. So can't read unless someone tells me how to fix it.

There was that Arab mare who didn't like my pushing myself back from her wither to be in balance point seat--she said, "Let yourself slide up to my hollow spot & be done with it!" 

I said, "Yes, ma'am, you're da teach!"


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Northern, do you have adobe acrobat reader on your computer? That could be the problem, the file is in pdf format and you can't open it unless you have the proper reader.


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## mooney (Sep 20, 2010)

Now a few things are cleared up it makes a little more sence. Your not sitting on your tail bone or seat bones but letting yourself move and sit with the flow like bareback. I can see this being diffecult in some saddles. But I think that, that is just how you sit without thinking, just letting yourself move with the horse unstead of bracing which I find I do when I am concentrating too hard, naturally I think your heels would settle "deeper" in the meaning your weight acts if it is futher down in your body to keep your balance. Even if your heels aren't really down, which I can't do becasue of medical reasons. Am I close, or in left field running in circles?

By the way, this is interesting topic, as I can't afford anything with Parelli name it is cool to hear what goes on at that type of thing. Even though I don't personally want to follow anyone.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Oh, yah, smrobs, that's what I need. Thanks! I'm not in a techno mood to try & fix right now.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Mooney, some principles are shared by the balance point seat & classical seat, the main one being non-interference with the horse/no bracing/rigidity/tenseness. Nice to find that common ground. It's just that there's disagreement on the optimum way to sit the horse to achieve that goal of non-interference and also helpfulness to the horse in carrying us.


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## mooney (Sep 20, 2010)

Thanks Northern.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I wonder if Parelli's know that the 14th vertebrae is the strongest spot on the horse's back & that it gets progressively weaker from there as you go toward the tail?


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*Jumping up & down Joyfully* I think this is a big piece of the puzzle, which a couple of others have kindly helped me with: the 14th vertebrae is the strongest, YET the farther-back musculature on either side of the horse is better to sit on, for absorption & rebound & distribution of weight! Woo Hoo! I'm still a bit confused by seeing photos of classical Portugese etc riders up in the hollow behind withers, but this explanation does make sense!


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Of course, the BEST thing to do is look to your horse for feedback, at all times. Is he happy with how you're sitting (& doing everything else)?


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

So true, Northern!


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I think it depends on where the rider places the saddle. In Parelli we believe in placing saddles further back on the horse and shimming them appropriately for that individual horse. All I know is that my horses, and any horse I've ridden since, is much much happier being ridden the way Parelli suggests than anything else.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Thanks for post, Spirithorse. 

The saddle set back off of the shoulder blades, as Parelli teaches, always made sense to me. Of course, the "average" English or Western saddle set back means the rider sits farther back, from the get-go. 

I wonder how the classical-seat riders have dealt with the shoulder/saddle issue. I'm guessing that they've been aware of the need to allow shoulder freedom, because the SRS, e.g.,_ has_ to have the shoulder freedom in order to perform the high school movements; but in the reading I've done, the subject's not been broached.

The classically-ridden horses are happy, balanced, athletically developed to the highest degree, & very long-lived, proving the correctness of their training/being ridden. Yet, so many who ride the Parelli balance-point seat claim that their horses love _that_! 

As Parelli says, "How interesting!"


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

Actually if the horse is using its torso muscles correctly the saddle and rider should be farther back and there will be no negative affect upon the horse, in fact, the muscle across the back that are part of the locomotion for the hindquarter will function more thoroughly.

This image I found on the internet is a pretty good representation of that, be it Western or English


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

It looks like he's in chair seat - ear/shoulder/hip/heel alignment's off, lower leg forward to where heel looks aligned with his navel, approximately.Spirithorse, does Parelli say anything about avoiding a chair seat? In my Level 1 & 2 packs, it doesn't discuss.


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

Correct neutral position of the pelvic....though saddle is to far forward


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

*some photos of classical seat*


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I can't get photos to post worth beans on this forum!

To be honest, I can't make heads or tails out of this discussion. To say that one doesn't sit on their bones but some place in the midddle, kind of between this part or that is just whooey! Of course you sit on your bones . You can't avoid it. How those seatbones are angled is another story. 
And. Just because you are on your seatbones does not mean you cannot moe nicely with the horse, as you might while riding bareback.

There is only so many ways you can sit on a horse and not fall off due to bad balance. You can sit in a chair seat, you can sit on your seat bones, in a three point seat and you can go the extreme of being way too far onto your pubic. But in all those cases , you are still bearing weight on your seatbones. Unless you are made of jelly.
The theory of the three point seat is that one has more area of adhesion. The pelvis just naturally fits into the curved space of the saddle this way best. If you are rocked back too far, you will be riding more on a "knife edge" and have less surface for good adhesion to the saddle. Also, not mentioned her, if you are rocked back on your tail bone too far (and remember, it's easier for men to rock back on their tailbones then women) you will straighten out the portion of your back (the lower portion) where you are physically designed to absorb shock. Your lower back has a curve in it for a reason; it is stronger being curved and it can flex and shorten/lenghten to absorb motion (walking/riding) 

If you take that curve out of the lower back by rocking back on your "pockets" you take away your ability to absorb motion and over time, you will damage your back, not to mention the harsh, direct pressure down through only the two seat bones, angled forward , tailbone back.

Of course, you don't want too much curve, but no curve is just as bad.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Thanks, tinyliny, for pics & words! 

Yes, one can't help but sit on seat bones, it's how the pelvis is angled that makes the difference!

About the back injury: Parelli's teach convex small of back, never to flex forward enough to go concave, yet Sylvia Loche teaches to go from vertical to flex forward only: don't both seem (no pun intended) too inflexible? Why isn't flexing a bit either way from a vertical spine, as one moves with one's horse, acceptable/ideal?


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

I aint Tiny, but the rider should always have flexion in the plevic and lumbar area. Tension here equates to tension in the horse...at least this is what I was taught and have found to be true


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I think I must be very ignorant. All of this sounds like a whole lot of over thinking to me. When I was a little girl I read horse stories endlessly and one day I came across a book with a poem in it which I have based my riding on ever since. 
Your hands and your heels stay low,
Your head and your heart stay high,
Back straight, shoulders back and you'll 
be alright my girl.
I have remembered that for over twenty years and I still base my seat on it - hands nice and low (check) heels down (check) back straight (check)... well you get the rest. I believe that good posture will put you in the right position. Of course I have had no experience in any sort of classical riding so I could be way off base with my comments.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I've just installed adobe flash player, but it doesn't let me access the little red x boxes in tiny's post; what to do?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Northern,

There is some reason why my photos didn't get into my post. I had that happen many times when I tried to attach more than one photo at a time. Never mind, they weren't anything special.

The thing is , regarding this post, until we SEE a video of this mysterious "balance point" seat I will just have to assume that Parelli is attaching a new name to the same old same old. There really isn't anything new in riding (beyond gadgets) We are the same beings we were 2000 years ago, as are our eguine partners. There are only so many ways we can fit together. And even fewer that make for a good ride.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Tinyliny, thanks for filling me in on photos; the first one is a good example of the classical seat. I do have dvd footage of the balance seat, in my Level 2 pack. It's true that Linda says 1) it's not 3 points, it's 1 (the balance point), which is back off the crotch & small of back bowed convexly 2) sit farther back on the horse 3) have a heavy seat (although Spirithorse said here that they lighten that up in collection). I wish that I could put the dvd footage here for you. There's a segment in which Linda's student, Katya, rides, while Linda comments, & it really shows how different the balance point seat is from the classical seat. For example, in posting trot, every time Katya touches down in the saddle, she bows her back convexly, & Linda comments that that is how it should be, with a sound effect, "Bow, bow, bow!".


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

You want your legs under you and to think in a picture of your legs wrapping under the horse's belly. We don't want brace however which is why we stay away from heels down, that just creates brace. Your ankles should be mobile, flexing just like the horse's, just "inside your skin" so they aren't visibly flopping around. Unless the chair seat is extreme, a lot of horses are happier to be ridden like that because the rider's weight is where it should be.....back. I was present for a conversation with Walter and he said he loves teaching Parelli students because 1) they have such wonderful relationships with their horses, 2) their horses trust them so much, 3) their foundation is what it should be in order to begin dressage, and 4) it's much easier to teach us to "tighten up" and to take more contact vs. teaching a rider to relax and give more rein to the horse and to trust the horse. It was a huge compliment.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I look forward to the video.


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## CessBee (Dec 6, 2008)

Ok, so if the horse is more comfortable with the weight not just behind the withers, how come when I ride my mare bareback with say a hands width or so behind the base of her wither (ie not so far as to be on her loins but in the place you seem to be describing) she gets all uncomfortable? Is that because not being in a saddle the wieght isnt spread over such an area and is more direct.
Also im assuming that for any galloping you would still go forward into a lighter seat so they can be forward?


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Tinyliny, I said that I wish that I could put footage on here; I can't. 

Cessbee, your experience on your horse bareback was also mine, bareback, with another horse (mentioned already), so bottom line, wherever the horse wants you to sit is the end of all argument. My dvd footage of Pat riding Zeus for the first time - bareback - shows him right up against the wither, not bothering himself at all about pushing himself farther back. Spirithorse?

I hereby announce  that I've joined the online savvy club for a month, thus have access to past dvd's, & have already viewed Linda teaching the transition from balance point to "dressage seat". Her directions are classical as far as I can tell: open the hip, straighten the leg (lower the stirrups from balance point seat), move the leg back under the torso for ear/shoulder/hip/heel alignment, heels aren't to ride up above ball of foot, energy of torso is to flow up, don't fall forward onto your crotch to avoid loss of steadiness in deep seat, which classical term can perhaps be replaced with "balance-point". Linda even directs student to "Stand!" in the stirrups, duplicating the classical imperative to approximate standing on the ground albeit with one's legs apart, for the correct seat!

Linda even shows exercises for riders adopting "dressage seat": front-of-thigh muscle stretches, etc.!

When Linda demonstrates the 2 seats from the ground, she definitely allows her pelvis to tilt forward some from the "balance point" bowed-back position, & when she's satisfied with student's position, he's looking quite upright altogether. (first impressions only; I want to re-watch).

So, Spirithorse is right, there are 2 Parelli seats: full-on balance point & I'm almost certain, the regular olde classical seat.

I still need to get the behind-withers vs. farther back deal straight, when horse is saddled; in the lesson, student was in a Western saddle, & nothing was discussed about where the seat was to be on horse's back (unless I missed it).


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

A lot of it has to do with weight distribution, yes. Some horses aren't comfortable being ridden bareback because they are either not muscled well enough for it to be comfortable or the rider is sitting too far up on their seat bones/bouncing/gripping/etc. The main reason we place the saddles back further is so the bars do not inhibit the horse's scapula movement. A lot of people will place the saddle way up onto the horse's shoulders, or place it just behind the horse's scapula AT REST....this is no good. We find the horse's full range of movement from his scapula, mark that spot, then place the first weight-bearing part of the saddle (bars) directly behind that spot of full extension. Shimming will most likely be required.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Christmas Day (& my adorable dog's 9th birthday!): just wanted to thank Spirithorse for kindly explaining more & say that I've been having a blast viewing all of the PP archives, & that what Linda does with the rider's position/relaxation/movement on the horse is_ proven_ to be correct by the positive responses of the horses! They all get very comfortable underneath those who ride with Fluidity! 

Some pretty messed-up horses have arrived at Linda's corral, & their improvement is there to see, on the videos.


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## CessBee (Dec 6, 2008)

Spirithorse said:


> A lot of it has to do with weight distribution, yes. Some horses aren't comfortable being ridden bareback because they are either not muscled well enough for it to be comfortable or the rider is sitting too far up on their seat bones/bouncing/gripping/etc. The main reason we place the saddles back further is so the bars do not inhibit the horse's scapula movement. A lot of people will place the saddle way up onto the horse's shoulders, or place it just behind the horse's scapula AT REST....this is no good. We find the horse's full range of movement from his scapula, mark that spot, then place the first weight-bearing part of the saddle (bars) directly behind that spot of full extension. Shimming will most likely be required.


My mare is perfectly comfortable bareback, except when i go back into the place where you would sit as the parellies tell you in the saddle, further back. 

I agree that most people put their saddles far too far foward, saw it all the time with some ponies at a riding club I used to attend, the ponies have lovely movement unsaddled, but they put the saddles up on their withers and then wonder why the pony doesnt "move out" and then they deck the little kid out in spurs to get more "oomph" which leads to the pony just running cause he cant actually move out and then they shove a harder bit on pony to stop it running and then the pony gets null to the aids and they go stronger bits and bigger spurs and the pony spirals into a pony which is un controllable by the small child. One person asked me to get on the pony, so i went up, slid the saddle back to the right place and lo and behold the pony was able to step out and was moving nicely. They thought I was magic, told them to put the saddle back further, they tried once and didnt get the same results I got, with the child rider. So proclaimed it did nothing.

Bit of a novel haha.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I liked your novel. I agree that many saddles are set too far forward, in dressage, too.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Hi, folks, after weeks of viewing the videos/instructions in Savvy Club online, I came upon LP's crystal-clear description of "balance point" deep seat in the MasterClass in England several years ago (6 parts). LP said here that your back is neither bowed back nor hollowed, _but flat_! The slight bowing back occurs as you touch down on the saddle at rising trot - that's it! 

So, the only difference that I see between Parelli deep seat & classical deep seat is the slight backward tilt of pelvis to sit on cushion between seatbones & tailbone in Parelli (classical seat being triangle of crotch & seatbones). 

Whew!


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Good for you for doing research on what Parelli teaches! So many people do not.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Thanks, Spirithorse. I, too, wish folks would have a look at the program before deciding that the unusual & unfortunate episode here & there over _many_ years of helping so _many _horses invalidates the program.


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