# Population Reduction



## drop_your_reins

I think we should all do our part to reduce the population of horses. 

Why? 

-Whether your against slaughter or not (in America at least) it is banned, probably for good.. or a really long time. The overpopulated horses have nowhere to go, and now more than ever we need to think of them first and do our part. 
-The horse market is in a slump right now. Basic economics and the law of supply and demand tell us if we reduce the numbers in the future, the market will slowly pick up.
-We are responsible as people to make the world a better place for future generations. As equestrians, we should do the same for our horses.

Where it starts: 

-Leaving colts with their male parts, when they clearly aren't breeding material. Everyone likes to think their horse is the best, and they may have a lot of strengths... But if their strengths don't outweigh their weaknesses, they probably aren't breeding material. Not to mention, in the wild survival of the fittest takes over. There is ONE breeding stallion per herd (at least usually, sometimes some of the younger stallions probably sneak around). Stallions will fight to death for the control of a herd, the winner breeds all the mares. 

-The same can be said for mares, if your mare is not truly breeding quality.. She shouldn't be bred. As much as you love her, its not going to change the fact that her babies might not be wanted by other people. If that is the case, and you don't have the time/money to take care of them: you are contributing needlessly to the overpopulation of horses. The wild also takes care of this in a way. First many mares may be infertile, in the wild they don't get pregnant. Thanks to technological advancement, we can increase a mare's chances of fertility. Secondly, foals who are born weak and cannot keep up with the herd usually die young. In the care of people, we do everything we can to ensure that they live. 

I am not saying people should stop breeding. Nor am I saying that we shouldn't use technology to increase chances of impregnating mares, or that if our foal is born premature or weak we should let it die.

What I am saying is that because of human intervention, there is no longer a population control on horses (much like dogs and cats), so we MUST do our part to ensure that we can provide them the best oppurtunities to succeed, get loving homes, and if applicable be of competition status. 

Where does it start? 

Responsible breeding. Be honest with yourself. If your colt has poor conformation, a terrible/overly violent attitude, or isn't marketable within its breed (such as doesn't win at recognized shows) then maybe you should geld. It is my firm belief that only outstanding representations of their breed or great champions of their discipline (notice I am including crossbreds in here) should be kept stallions. The majority of colts should be gelded, there is nothing wrong with geldings, there should be nothing to fear in gelding a colt. 

The same for your mare, broodmares should pass on the exceptional qualities of both sire and dam. They should also be exceptional representations of their breed or outstandingly talented in a given discipline... But even then, it doesn't garuntee that they will be "great" broodmares. If after two or three foals they don't seem to create outstanding or highly marketable foals, you should consider keeping them as companion/competition/pleasure horses. 

The best way to do this, if you are an unproven breeder (If your foals sell out the shelves, keep doing what your doing.. its obviously something correct) is to ask the opinions of fellow horseman- especially those who know more about the breed or discipline of your choice than you, and those whose opinion you highly respect. They may bring out points, good or bad, that you haven't thought about. You may change your mind or your stallion.

The most important thing, is once the horse is bred and born no matter how beautiful, ugly, talented or average the horse is: It is your responsibility to ensure its marketability. That means training it. That means starting from a young age. (not necessarily saddling a two year old, but read on.) Get it used to clippers, bathing, leading, standing on cross-ties, stable manners, loading, standing for vet and farrier, grooms, etc. All of this can be done before the horse starts any real training and increase the horse's value. 
Consider the future of the horse.. Just because you don't clip your horses, doesn't mean it shouldn't stand and be clipped for a future owner. Also squash bad behavior early (bucking, rearing, laying down in tack, etc.) before it becomes a full blown problem.. I think you know where I am going with this. 

I think breeding responsibly is the best and only practical solution to slowing the exponential population growth. Just think of your horses' futures before you breed and after you breed. 


Also proven breeders can do their part by considering reducing their foal crops.. Even if its just by one or two foals.. In a way this can be beneficial to you, again I bring in the law of supply and demand. If you lower your supplies, in theory the demand will go up. (So if your horses truly are of spectacular quality, having less will boost their prices.) 

Stallion owners can also do their part. You can approve and limit the amount of outside mares you allow breedings to. If you are a good judge of quality (assuming so, since your stallion is of upmost quality if he is kept a stallion..) then don't allow breedings to mares who don't seem like they will produce outstanding babies. (Ask for pictures, pedigrees, foal references, etc.) If you don't want to get that technical, than just limit the number of outside mares. Again the law of supply and demand dictates that your stallion will be more valuable (provided he truly is a quality animal) as a breeding stallion, especially if he throws spectacular babies. 

I think I've made my point. Any other suggestions for controlling population growth?


----------



## bubba13

^Goldurnit, drop_your_reins, there's nothing there to argue over. You disappoint me.

Well, here, I'll add a tidbit, instead:

Too often I hear "Well, Miss Sassy has a crooked leg/ is untrainable/ can't walk right/ doesn't like people/ is blind in both eyes so we can't ride her, so therefore we decided to make her a broodmare." Now, tell me, how does this make sense?


----------



## bubba13

Now, DYR, nobody's going to read this and comment unless we make it interesting....gotta get the message out somehow, so, uh....let's make this exciting.

How do you propose to make people follow the above guidelines, eh? Because we all know that people are ignorant, arrogant, and greedy. I say that there's no possible way to enforce good breeding techniques, and that we still need an "outlet" for unwanted horses.....unless you want to keep sending them to Mexico!

Should I have called you a bad word, too? Hmmmm....


----------



## KANSAS_TWISTER

vry well said DYR.... i've seen way to many "perfect mares" in foal with too many imperfections.. it boggles my mind


----------



## Vidaloco

Well said DYR  I had a filly that was sold to us prior to learing she was HYPP pos. We were ignorant first time buyers. The breeder who sold her to us told us that "at least she could be used as a brood mare". She finally died from it (see Fancys story in memorials) But anyway, I couldn't believe someone would breed a horse like that. I'm not sure if the individual horse registrys should be responsible for inforcing breeding laws if they were inacted or what the answer is. Because as bubba said there will always be ignorance, arrogance and greed involved.


----------



## Harlee rides horses

Drop_your_reins I completely agree with you and all those people that breed the "perfect horse" that no one wants are the reason slaughter houses should be legalized and that is why I believe in horse slaughter, it isn't a bad thing when its helping society and horse life in itself.


----------



## Deb

I am sorry but I absolutely don't agree with you. Have you ever done a search on "Horse slaughter"? Do you have any idea what the shipping of horses for slaughter is like, or what the poor animals face when they get to the slaughter house. The sheer brutality of the whole process is horrendous. I saw one video where a stock truck arrived with a horses hoof stuck through one of those openings in the side of it. They cut its foot off so that they could get it out, then hauled the poor animal out with a chain. Horses are not fed or watered for sometimes several days at a time on the road as it affects the schedule. The people (and I use the term loosely) in the slaughterhouse, hit them, scream at them, all in an effort to keep the line moving. The bolt gun used to stun them isn't always effective. The target is moving, so instead of one good shot where it does what it is supposed to do, it might take as many as four shots, each time causing only more pain and terror. And horse slaughter is banned in most of the states, but apparently not all. So the extra horses that you see standing in auction yards all over the country are going to be subjected to long trips, without food, without water. And there are no laws to protect them. They are victims.

They are victims of everyones need to let their mare have one baby because they are so cute. They are victims of people who turn that sweet mare that has obvious problems that preclude her from being a working horse, into a broodmare. Next time you drive by a field full of babies frolicking in the sunshine, ask yourself how many of them will wind up on the killing floor.

I have two mares that have never been bred. They never will be and I moved from one side of the country to the other so that I could buy a piece of property that had fields for them to wander in until the end of their days. People like me are horse lovers, we love them enough not to bring more into the world.


----------



## .Delete.

Deb said:


> I have two mares that have never been bred. They never will be and I moved from one side of the country to the other so that I could buy a piece of property that had fields for them to wander in until the end of their days. People like me are horse lovers, we love them enough not to bring more into the world.


Good for you. But on one cares about what /you/ have or what /you/ do. Its what other people do. If your such a /horse lover/ why would you rather let a horse starve to death in a pasture? Or die slowly from a painfull illness? Then send it to slaughter and have it die to end that pain? I'd rather have my horse go though a sever ammount of pain for a day or two. Then pro-long that pain till the ends of his days, thank you very much. People wont listen to breeding regulations. What about large throughbred farms that make tons off money off their "foal crops". What about PMU farms? There is too much money involved. Remember*its not what people should do that matters. Its what they do*


----------



## Deb

Good for you. But on one cares about what /you/ have or what /you/ do. Its what other people do. If your such a /horse lover/ why would you rather let a horse starve to death in a pasture? Or die slowly from a painfull illness? Then send it to slaughter and have it die to end that pain? I'd rather have my horse go though a sever ammount of pain for a day or two. Then pro-long that pain till the ends of his days, thank you very much. People wont listen to breeding regulations. What about large throughbred farms that make tons off money off their "foal crops". What about PMU farms? There is too much money involved. Rememberits not what people should do that matters. Its what they do

Deb
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:

Hmm, I can't figure out if you are angry at me, or what? And did I mention anything about letting a horse starve in a pasture? I don't think so. Nor did I suggest that horses should suffer pain until the end of their days. And are you for PMU farms or against it? Personally, I am a menopausal woman and made the decision not to take estrogen treatments, because I didn't want to support the PMU industry which is a crime against horses for all kinds of reasons. I get the hot flashes and the whole nine yards but that's fine by me. 

If every animal that went to slaughter, was treated kindly and with respect, and not beaten or starved, or....well you get my drift, during that process, I would have less of a problem with it. But the facts are that they do endure all of these things on their way out of this world. And if one of my girls was sick and in pain, I most assuredly would not send her to slaughter "to end that pain". What a horrible thing to do to a friend. She would have a little visit from the vet after a good meal of her favourite things and it would be peaceful and quiet around her at that last moment on this good earth. 

I think my last statement says it all, nobody should be bringing more horses into the world for the sake of "having just one baby around, cause they're so cute, and we want that experience once".

You seem very angry at me for mentioning that we moved across the country for the sake of my horses. Why is that? May I ask, do you board your horse because you can't afford to buy your own place for it? If so, I am sorry for that, because I'm sure you'd rather have a different situation . I hope that someday things will change for you in that regard if that is your wish. I feel very fortunate that my girls have the lives that they have and I wish that was the case for all horses. 

The problem is that people in general seem to believe that animals are a commodity to be used (and yes abused) at will and tossed aside when they are no longer convenient or useful. I don't feel that way and hope that by being involved in discussions like this and giving my opinion and yes, mentioning what we've done in our lives as evidence to back up that opinion, that more folks will begin to realize that we all have a responsibility to take care of our animals.


----------



## BluMagic

Slaughter is a very sensitive issue for me. I understand where this topic is coming from. Here are questions that always seems to pop into my head: 

What is "Breedable"? What is "Good Enough"? What is "Perfect"?

I don't agree with Slaughters being legalized but there needs to be a firmer hand and much more education in the breeding field. 8) 

Same goes for those that breed Top-Quality horses. They are bringing more horses into the world too and I don't think it should just be the "backyard breeders". :wink: 

I think that artificial insemination and such is going a little out of line. As horse_luver has said...don't mess with Mother Nature. Sometimes, in cases I think it's sick. But that's jut me.  Having a mare pregnant with a foal at her side as well? I just don't agree. 

I don't mind people leaving colts with their male parts actually. As long as they are rightfully cared for and all...and kept away from mares...it's ok I guess. 

I don't know... :?:


----------



## bubba13

I'm just going to reply to the most recent post, because honestly I'm not in the mood to tackle the rest.

"Breedable/Good Enough/Perfect:"

A horse that has good conformation (actually, great conformation), a good mind, no genetic diseases that it could pass on to its offspring, is in healthy shape and physically able to reproduce without straining itself, has something desirable to add to the market, does not add to a niche that is already overpopulated, is owned by people who are financially able and educated enough to support it and its offspring, is registered, has good bloodlines, has proven itself in the show ring, has in fact won awards in said show ring (and not just at the 4H level....we're talking the real deal), etc.

Yes, quality horses are _slightly_ overpopulated. Read the certain niches being filled and surplus horses--mainly in the halter industry and TB racing. But for the most part (say, 75%), it's junk horses and mediocre horses that are filling up kill pens in Mexico.

Backyard breeders need to stop breeding. Period. Big production operations need to cut back their foal crop drastically.

And there's no excuse to not geld colts. If they aren't high quality animals being used for breeding, they need to be cut, because eventually, they'll jump the neighbor's fence and breed his mini mare. Or hurt themselves trying. Not to mention, stallions are dangerous and unhappy horses. Nature tells them that they need to reproduce--they've got that constant internal drive. But if they act even remotely like a boy, they get in trouble. How is that fair? They're constantly nervous and on edge....because that's how they're programmed. They have trouble keeping weight on. Geld them, and they calm down. They're healthier, happier, and saner.


----------



## .Delete.

Im not angry at anyone o.o Im just being point blank about what i think.


----------



## Harlee rides horses

The difference between backyard breeders and Top-Quality breeders, is that the top breeders, breed for a reason, and when those top horses are at the top, its pretty slim to none a 500,000 dollar horse is going to slaughter. Now when you don't even mean to breed a horse. Well then that horse might as well have slaughter written on its forehead. I realized that for those of us that don't backyard breed, or send horses to slaughter, shouldn't bother with slaughter. We won't end it nor should we. So why not just let the people that basically breed specifically for slaughter breed for those reasons, considering they are unstoppable, and invincible when it comes to slaughter horse breeding.


----------



## Deb

Quoted: (The difference between backyard breeders and Top-Quality breeders, is that the top breeders, breed for a reason, and when those top horses are at the top, its pretty slim to none a 500,000 dollar horse is going to slaughter. Now when you don't even mean to breed a horse. Well then that horse might as well have slaughter written on its forehead. I realized that for those of us that don't backyard breed, or send horses to slaughter, shouldn't bother with slaughter. We won't end it nor should we. So why not just let the people that basically breed specifically for slaughter breed for those reasons, considering they are unstoppable, and invincible when it comes to slaughter horse breeding.)	


Backyard breeders breed for a reason too, babies are cute, I want a baby from my horse, my horse has such a great personality....
but are those really good reasons to add one more horse to the world which often treats them so unkindly. 

Would you then use the same rational when it comes to the overpopulation of dogs or cats? After all, puppy mills are unstoppable, and we wouldn't do it, but they are invincible so what the heck. Maybe we shouldn't even try to stop them for those reasons. When something is horrible, civilized people have an obligation to say something, because to say nothing is to give approval. Even the law says that if you know of a crime being committed and do nothing to prevent it, you are as guilty as the perpetrator.


----------



## Deb

I have another one for you. Did you know that the Chinese breed a little animal called a racoon dog for fur. They stun it by beating it over the head, then skin it alive. Should we just allow it to continue, or should we vote with our wallets and not buy anything with fur that comes from China. Because they breed for a purpose, because they are unstoppable, because they are invincible....

If only people realized that all animals, including horses have feelings, and suffer fear, and sadness, and experience joy, and if the level of a beings intelligence wasn't a determining factor for whether or not they have worth, then maybe the whole animal slaughter issue would have a chance of becoming a thing of the long ago, primitive past.

By the way, if you don't believe me about the racoon dog thing, do a search on Chinese fur farms. I will warn you though, the video you will find is horrifying and is not for the sensitive.


----------



## Harlee rides horses

Deb said:


> Quoted: (The difference between backyard breeders and Top-Quality breeders, is that the top breeders, breed for a reason, and when those top horses are at the top, its pretty slim to none a 500,000 dollar horse is going to slaughter. Now when you don't even mean to breed a horse. Well then that horse might as well have slaughter written on its forehead. I realized that for those of us that don't backyard breed, or send horses to slaughter, shouldn't bother with slaughter. We won't end it nor should we. So why not just let the people that basically breed specifically for slaughter breed for those reasons, considering they are unstoppable, and invincible when it comes to slaughter horse breeding.)
> 
> 
> Backyard breeders breed for a reason too, babies are cute, I want a baby from my horse, my horse has such a great personality....
> but are those really good reasons to add one more horse to the world which often treats them so unkindly.
> 
> Would you then use the same rational when it comes to the overpopulation of dogs or cats? After all, puppy mills are unstoppable, and we wouldn't do it, but they are invincible so what the heck. Maybe we shouldn't even try to stop them for those reasons. When something is horrible, civilized people have an obligation to say something, because to say nothing is to give approval. Even the law says that if you know of a crime being committed and do nothing to prevent it, you are as guilty as the perpetrator.




People who breed for a reason aren't back yard breeders. Some one who breeds deliberately to see how cute the baby will be and then get rid of it, well thats a little different. I'm saying people who have horses just to be high and mighty enough to say they have a horse and send them all in the pasture because they don't care a pig and a goose about them or what comes from them, well they are the unstoppable ones. Because all those unwanted babies, starving, highly diseased, abused, yadda yadda, horses are ones who go to slaughter. They are the ones no one wants to waste money on. Why stop that? You alone can't stop horses from breeding, its a natural thing when they are put in a pasture together. Don't count on slaughter getting taken away or stopped. It's a necessary thing, horses are over-populated, especially the ones no one wants. What are we supposed to do with the ones not wanted? Let them starve, pass on diseases? I think not. Shame on anyone who believes that to be right. Shame on the people who take on horses when they know they will never ever have the chances to afford it and support it but still breed it thus sending the mare and the baby to slaughter. Shame on them. You can't stop it though. And with the Chinese breeding things specifically for fur, well its going to happen. Now what about those people that don't give a dog and a cat about what happened to those dogs as long as they're getting top quality fur? You cannot stop it nor should we try because the population of certain things, such as horses and deer are over populated. Its just like deer, people hunt them too? Now why doesn't anyone make a big deal about hunting? People have veal. You know those baby cows in dog houses. They're bred specifically for a reason and there is no stopping that. And why should we?


----------



## Deb

I gotta admit that I am stymied by your fatalistic attitude. You seem to think that there is no point in trying to stop horrible things. If everyone in the world had that attitude, then no one would have tried to stop Hitler from killing Jews and anyone else who didn't fit his idea of the perfect race. No one would try to stop pedophiles, because that is just what they do and why try to stop it. No one would try to stop puppy mills so why waste the money on the SPCA. People who abuse their horses will never stop even if you take the horse away, they'll just get another one later and abuse it, so why try to help the one that is there in front of you. I am saddened quite frankly because I think that there are lots of people out there who are like you seem to be, you just don't care. 

We are judged by how we treat the weakest among us, how we treat the voiceless, and if we don't care, what does that say about us? If we don't feel anguish for the pain of others, what does that say about us? What does it take to make the uncaring, feel again?


----------



## Deb

The reason that is proposed here that slaughter be allowed to go on is that it is the only way to prevent horse neglect. Where do you think race horses go when they are not fast enough? Some may get sold and rehabbed for pleasure use, but apparently 15% of the animals that show up on the kill floor are 2-3 year old Thoroughbreds. When they do round ups of wild horses, some get adopted, but where do you think the rest go? 

(http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9806E7D91F3EF936A15751C0A9649C8B63&fta=y)

What do you think happens to all the broodmares that these people "who breed for a reason" do when the mares are no longer productive? I understand your concerns about neglected horses. But maybe instead of killing the horses, we as a people, should focus on eliminating the overproduction of animals in general, whether they be dogs, cats, horses, pet birds, etc. 

If the racing industry folds tomorrow, that will be how many fewer horses being produced to find that one champion. If every person who breeds (including the ones on the breeding threads on this forum) for selfish reasons, yes I did use the "S" word, didn't, how many fewer horses would be hauled away to slaughter. If every woman going through menopause were to accept natures changes in her body, instead of relying on horse pee to avoid perspiring, how many fewer horses would be loaded onto trucks for the final ride. Say nothing, and the pain continues.


----------



## .Delete.

Exaclty Deb. What do you think happenes to those mares?

I know Harlee extremely well. I can tell you this, she does care, she cares enough to realize that slaughter and such is needed in this world. She cares enough to understand that no matter how many people complain and throw a fit about the poor horses dieing everyday isn't going to do anything. Its going to continue. Harlee does care, more then you know.

So back to those mares. If there is no slaughter what is going to happen to them. Slaughter was their escape from the pain of starving to death in a pasture. So your saying we should let that happen? What about all the PMU mares that get sent to slaughter? They will be thrown out to pasture to die. The problem is that people don't care i agree with you on that. But there are more people in this world that don't care, more then do. Its a money making business. Thats all there is too it. There is way too much money involved for anything to be done. Politics. If you understand the politics of it all, it would make more sense. Its like the tobacco companies. Many people are trying to stop that, but again too much money involved. Even if they did stop the sales of tobacco and made it illegal a huge black market would come about. So really its a vicious circle. Mindless people breed mindless horses then come up with mindless crap. The people don't care anymore so they send them to slaughter. To me, slaughter is an escape from dieing slowly in a pasture. 

If you forget about one thing, and focus on another, the thing you forgot about will come up and bite you in the butt. If we stop slaughter and focus on overpopulation. You will see an increase in neglected horses and such, more horses dying on the sides of the roads. Its a horrible thing but its true. Overpopulation is a problem yes, but not the only problem. 

You cannot compare slaughter to Hitler. There is just no comparison. Hitler destoryed the Jews for power and gain. Yes thousands of horses a killed a day, but its legal and for a reason, meat. Also its an escape from abuse and neglect. Yes maybe that 500,000 horse is going to slaughter. Ever think that is run-down can no longer move, or has a diease. Or maybe did you think that their owner wasn't going to take care of them anyways so they saved them from starving in a pasture by sending them to slaughter. 

You said the problem is people don't care. I always feel like im repeating myself on here *Its not a matter of what people should do, its what they do*. And what they do is not care. Want to know what the real problem is? People who don't care, don't care, and will never care. So the horses that arn't cared for, need an escape. I feel that slaughter is that escape.


----------



## kim_angel

This logic would be fine, if the only horses that went to slaughter were old, dying, skinny, malnourished or abandoned horses.
But young, healthy, top quality horses are going to slaughter.
And neglected horses are still dying in fields across the USA.

:?


----------



## Deb

The point of mentioning Hitler, was to show how important it is to take a stand against something, to fight against it, and only in doing so, will the evil be stopped. But if you have the attitude that "Oh well, we can't stop it, it's too powerful, so why bother" just allows the evil an arena in which to continue. Slavery in America was the same way. Someone had to take a stand against it, call it the evil that it was, and fight against it. So every battle must be a dual pronged attack. In the case of Hitler, you a)help the Jews escape, and b) you fight Hitler on his own ground. In the case of slavery, you a) give the slaves a way to escape to a new life and b) have a civil war that begins to change what is now becoming unnacceptable. In the case of horses (or any animal for that matter) you a) educate people on the horror of overpopulation and the violence of slaughterhouses and b) do whatever you can to provide rescue homes for the animals that you can save and c) you make it extremely difficult for people to make money off these innocent lives or dump their unwanted horses and one of the ways to do this is ending the wholesale slaughter.

You say Hitler destroyed the Jews for power and gain. That is not so far removed from why killers go around the country, buying horses at auctions and from racing barns, and... for power and gain, both coming in the form of money. And whats more, you mention that the reason it is legal is for meat. And you are right to a degree. But I would submit to you, that by ceasing to consume meat, you not only help the animals that used to be on your menu, but you also help the environment. The consumption of meat products is bad for the environment. The congregation of huge numbers of animals in feedlots around the world, adds tremendously to the ground water pollution problems wherever they are housed. Cattle in particular add to the methane in the environment which contributes to the breakdown of the ozone layer that protects our world. The amount of grain foods and water that must go into cattle to bring these animals to marketable size, would feed so many of the worlds starving masses. And what is more, the consumption of meat products is bad for your personal health. Animal fat contributes to high cholestrol, obesity, heart disease, kidney disease, and on and on.

Nobody wants horses to starve to death in a field. But to just throw up your hands and say oh well, can't change nothin', will do exactly that, change nothing. As so called civilized peoples, our goal should be to grow and improve and open up to compassion for all beings. So yes, we should be trying to stop wholesale, mindless horse (animal) slaughter, and wholesale, mindless horse(animal) breeding. Attack on as many fronts as you can think of and eventually the war gets won.


----------



## Deb

And by the way, just in case you are dead set on eating meat and are trusting that the FDA and meat inspectors everywhere are taking care of you, think about this.

I have an aunt and uncle, very nice folks, you would like them I'm sure, and they raise cattle for the market. A few years ago, in the spring, they had a couple young calves die unexpectedly. Then they noticed a couple more beginning to exhibit the same early signs. The vet had not been able to cure the first pair, couldn't even say what it was. So rather than take a chance on loosing the income from that years calves, they shipped the whole lot of them, before they started showing any signs of problems. Common practice all over North America when farmers are trying to protect their bottom line. I wonder how many of those calves were carrying the bacteria that killed that first pair, and how many of you ate a burger from one of them? What's more, do a search on rendered pets, and you will find out a whole lot more than you want to know about what goes into the chicken food, and cattle feed, and pet food, that we buy each and every day. And you know the old saying "you are what you eat". 

As far as I can see, we all need to work to change the mindset of people and this comes about in so many ways, on so many fronts. But the start is in each one of us.


----------



## .Delete.

Deb said:


> The consumption of meat products is bad for the environment.


Fish eat coral, cat eat's fish, dog eat's cat, bear eats dog. 

Its how it works. Im certain the nautral process of consuming other animals isn't bad for the enviroment. If it is. The rest of the animal cycle is messed up.


----------



## Vidaloco

I agree with you on that one delete. chickens will eat other chickens, fish eat other fish, pigs eat anything. So whats wrong with eatting them? I know weird logic :lol:


----------



## Deb

Fish eat coral, cat eat's fish, dog eat's cat, bear eats dog. 

Its how it works. Im certain the nautral process of consuming other animals isn't bad for the enviroment. If it is. The rest of the animal cycle is messed up.	
_________________
.Delete. 

You are right, in the natural process, predator animals eating prey animals isn't bad for the environment. But the feedlots and row upon row of chicken sheds, hundreds of pigs in barns and fish pens aren't the natural process. And all of those cattle in the feedlots add concentrated feces and urine to the ground and it leaches into the ground water. Same with the waste of chickens, pigs and the salmon in fish pens on the Pacific coastline. As far as human health is concerned, eating meat is not a natural process either, we are simply accustomed to it but our physiology is more like a herbivores than a predators. Check this out: http://www.celestialhealing.net/physicalveg3.htm

[Choosing a nonvegetarian lifestyle has a significant health and medical cost. The total direct medical costs in the United States attributable to meat consumption were estimated to be $30-60 billion a year, based upon the higher prevalence of hypertension, heart disease, cancer, diabetes, gallstones, obesity and food-borne illness among omnivores compared with vegetarians (2). ] from The American Dietetic Association.

The point of all this is that the consumption of horses is not normal, a necessity, nor is it acceptable just because some people choose to do it. So from that perspective, speaking out against it is good, not only for horses, but for those who eat them. But at the same time, it is necessary to educate people so that they begin to realize that breeding and adding horses to the pool of unwanted animals. And yes, you are right, animals should not be neglected and left to starve in fields since that appears to be a major concern of some of you, but that happens anyway even though the slaughter of horses is still going on. 

I want to take a second here to thank you all for the politeness that I have encountered on this thread. Sometimes when people are looking at an issue from different perspectives, it can get a little heated, but I think that we've done an amazing job of getting along don't you?


----------



## Deb

Fish eat coral, cat eat's fish, dog eat's cat, bear eats dog. 

Its how it works. Im certain the nautral process of consuming other animals isn't bad for the enviroment. If it is. The rest of the animal cycle is messed up.	
_________________
.Delete. 

You are right, in the natural process, predator animals eating prey animals isn't bad for the environment. But the feedlots and row upon row of chicken sheds, hundreds of pigs in barns and fish pens aren't the natural process. And all of those cattle in the feedlots add concentrated feces and urine to the ground and it leaches into the ground water. Same with the waste of chickens, pigs and the salmon in fish pens on the Pacific coastline. As far as human health is concerned, eating meat is not a natural process either, we are simply accustomed to it but our physiology is more like a herbivores than a predators. Check this out: http://www.celestialhealing.net/physicalveg3.htm

[Choosing a nonvegetarian lifestyle has a significant health and medical cost. The total direct medical costs in the United States attributable to meat consumption were estimated to be $30-60 billion a year, based upon the higher prevalence of hypertension, heart disease, cancer, diabetes, gallstones, obesity and food-borne illness among omnivores compared with vegetarians (2). ] from The American Dietetic Association.

The point of all this is that the consumption of horses is not normal, a necessity, nor is it acceptable just because some people choose to do it. So from that perspective, speaking out against it is good, not only for horses, but for those who eat them. But at the same time, it is necessary to educate people so that they begin to realize that breeding and adding horses to the pool of unwanted animals isn't acceptable. And yes, you are right, animals should not be neglected and left to starve in fields since that appears to be a major concern of some of you, but that happens anyway even though the slaughter of horses is still going on. 

I want to take a second here to thank you all for the politeness that I have encountered on this thread. Sometimes when people are looking at an issue from different perspectives, it can get a little heated, but I think that we've done an amazing job of getting along don't you?


----------



## Vidaloco

I was noticing that as well Deb. Hats off to all for staying civil.


----------



## Deb

(
(I know Harlee extremely well. I can tell you this, she does care, she cares enough to realize that slaughter and such is needed in this world. She cares enough to understand that no matter how many people complain and throw a fit about the poor horses dieing everyday isn't going to do anything. Its going to continue. Harlee does care, more then you know. Delete)

You know years ago, some people got upset because of how ducks were being treated on fois gras farms. These birds are confined to shoe box size cages, and a steel pipe is rammed down their throats and four pounds of mash is pumped into them. This goes on for several weeks during which time, the poor ducks organs begin to fail and they become so obese in that short a time, that they are unable to walk. All so that some people can eat the diseased livers of these birds. That is what pate de fois gras is; diseased duck liver. As a result, eleven countries of the world have banned the production of it within their borders, because of the cruelty. Chicago no longer allows the sale of this product within the city limits and California also has a ban on it. That is what getting upset about something can achieve.


----------



## Harlee rides horses

Go ahead and think I'm a bad person for not caring. You have me all wrong though. I care enough about the abused, diseased, mistreated, yadda yadda, horses that I know they need to be slaughtered. You want to tell me how it will ever be possible to save a horse that hasn't been fed for 2 years? And if someone cared enough about a horse to let it starve half to death, you can be **** straight they aren't going to pay to humanely put it down. 

Comparison to Hitler, go ahead, think I'm horrible. If I was given the chance Hitler was, I would take it. I admire him for his quick domination of Russia, and almost the world. Good for him. 

Also that isn't a great comparison. Hitler killed for power. Slaughter kills for the treatment of over-population. It is a humane way of killing for those that won't kill. As in if your horse is dying, are you going to put it down? I should dearly hope so. Those that don't care, just don't care how their "prized possessions" leave this Earth.


----------



## Deb

(
(I know Harlee extremely well. I can tell you this, she does care, she cares enough to realize that slaughter and such is needed in this world. She cares enough to understand that no matter how many people complain and throw a fit about the poor horses dieing everyday isn't going to do anything. Its going to continue. Harlee does care, more then you know. Delete)

You know years ago, some people got upset because of how ducks were being treated on fois gras farms. These birds are confined to shoe box size cages, and a steel pipe is rammed down their throats and four pounds of mash is pumped into them three or four times per day. This goes on for several weeks during which time, the poor ducks organs begin to fail and they become so obese in that short a time, that they are unable to walk. All so that some people can eat the diseased livers of these birds. That is what pate de fois gras is; diseased duck liver. As a result, eleven countries of the world have banned the production of it within their borders, because of the cruelty. As well, Chicago no longer allows the sale of this product within the city limits and California also has a ban on it. That is what getting upset about something can achieve.


----------



## Harlee rides horses

Deb said:


> (
> (I know Harlee extremely well. I can tell you this, she does care, she cares enough to realize that slaughter and such is needed in this world. She cares enough to understand that no matter how many people complain and throw a fit about the poor horses dieing everyday isn't going to do anything. Its going to continue. Harlee does care, more then you know. Delete)
> 
> You know years ago, some people got upset because of how ducks were being treated on fois gras farms. These birds are confined to shoe box size cages, and a steel pipe is rammed down their throats and four pounds of mash is pumped into them. This goes on for several weeks during which time, the poor ducks organs begin to fail and they become so obese in that short a time, that they are unable to walk. All so that some people can eat the diseased livers of these birds. That is what pate de fois gras is; diseased duck liver. As a result, eleven countries of the world have banned the production of it within their borders, because of the cruelty. Chicago no longer allows the sale of this product within the city limits and California also has a ban on it. That is what getting upset about something can achieve.



There is a difference. Slaughter is for good. Its not like someones just going to go up to your barn and say you cannot have these horses because your over populating horses and we need to slaughter them. No, you know its not like that. Also horses aren't mistreated for food. They get sent to reduce population. Those ducks were used as a product. Please tell me what product is made from slaughtered horses? Other than glue, maybe.


----------



## BluMagic

poor duckies!!!!


----------



## Harlee rides horses

Deb said:


> (
> (I know Harlee extremely well. I can tell you this, she does care, she cares enough to realize that slaughter and such is needed in this world. She cares enough to understand that no matter how many people complain and throw a fit about the poor horses dieing everyday isn't going to do anything. Its going to continue. Harlee does care, more then you know. Delete)
> 
> You know years ago, some people got upset because of how ducks were being treated on fois gras farms. These birds are confined to shoe box size cages, and a steel pipe is rammed down their throats and four pounds of mash is pumped into them. This goes on for several weeks during which time, the poor ducks organs begin to fail and they become so obese in that short a time, that they are unable to walk. All so that some people can eat the diseased livers of these birds. That is what pate de fois gras is; diseased duck liver. As a result, eleven countries of the world have banned the production of it within their borders, because of the cruelty. Chicago no longer allows the sale of this product within the city limits and California also has a ban on it.  That is what getting upset about something can achieve.



Also not only these horses aren't enduring their organs shutting down, or obesity, or the unability to walk. The worst thing they go through is the ride over to get killed. So does it really matter how bad the ride is? And the only reason the ride is bad is because there are so many neglected horses that need taken to slaughter.


----------



## Deb

[Go ahead and think I'm a bad person for not caring. You have me all wrong though. I care enough about the abused, diseased, mistreated, yadda yadda, horses that I know they need to be slaughtered. You want to tell me how it will ever be possible to save a horse that hasn't been fed for 2 years? ]

But the horses that are showing up at the killers are not starved or beaten, etc. they are the product of overproduction on racing farms, PMU farms, too many show horses being bred in the hopes of getting a champion.

[Comparison to Hitler, go ahead, think I'm horrible. If I was given the chance Hitler was, I would take it. I admire him for his quick domination of Russia, and almost the world. Good for him. ]

I can't believe you really said that!


[Also that isn't a great comparison. Hitler killed for power. Slaughter kills for the treatment of over-population. It is a humane way of killing for those that won't kill. As in if your horse is dying, are you going to put it down? I should dearly hope so. Those that don't care, just don't care how their "prized possessions" leave this Earth.]	

The slaughter of horses is not done in a humane way. A bolt gun to the head to stun only works if the it is dead on, but that doesn't happen when that horse is thrashing and moving in an effort to escape. Three shots, maybe four and he still might not be stunned. He is getting hit in the shoulder, the eyes, the cheeks, and the pain is only equalled by the fear. Where people used to bring him food and water and brush his coat, now they are yelling and hurting and hurting.... finally as he lays there, and not always unconcious, his throat is slashed and he is hoisted into the air by one leg, and his red life blood fills his lungs and his mouth as gasping for air he continues for a few moments longer to thrash.

Here is the big if for me, IF every horse was guaranteed that it would not be terrifying nor painful to leave this world, then I wouldn't have the same feelings. A few weeks ago, my little dog, who was eighteen years old, was finally ready to leave this world. I took her to the vet. The room was quiet, the doctor spoke quietly and tenderly to her as she searched for a vein. She finally found one, and the drug went in. My little Lucy whimpered just once, then relaxed, sighed and was gone. Compare her leaving to the horses on the killing floor.
_________________
=]


----------



## tim

You know, animals die in horrific ways all the time. Take a wild horse for example. I guarantee you the majority of wild horses that are caught and eaten by predators in the wild are partially consumed alive. 

Now come on. The pitiful arguments about fear and pain don't really fly in a serious conversation. The decision can't be based on coddling every horse alive. It has to be based on whats best for the industry as a whole.


----------



## Harlee rides horses

Deb said:


> [Go ahead and think I'm a bad person for not caring. You have me all wrong though. I care enough about the abused, diseased, mistreated, yadda yadda, horses that I know they need to be slaughtered. You want to tell me how it will ever be possible to save a horse that hasn't been fed for 2 years? ]
> 
> But the horses that are showing up at the killers are not starved or beaten, etc. they are the product of overproduction on racing farms, PMU farms, too many show horses being bred in the hopes of getting a champion.
> 
> *Your adding to my point. And yes some of the horses that go to the slaughter houses are, in fact, neglected. But also slaughter houses are needed to keep the population down. And if people feel the need to breed for something they don't want, well then where do you expect unwanted horses to go? Slaughter.*
> 
> [Comparison to Hitler, go ahead, think I'm horrible. If I was given the chance Hitler was, I would take it. I admire him for his quick domination of Russia, and almost the world. Good for him.]
> 
> I can't believe you really said that!
> 
> *I'm not saying that I agree with killing of other persons but how quickly he dominated the bast majority of the people is what I admire him for. And also this is totally off subject, let it drop.*
> 
> 
> [Also that isn't a great comparison. Hitler killed for power. Slaughter kills for the treatment of over-population. It is a humane way of killing for those that won't kill. As in if your horse is dying, are you going to put it down? I should dearly hope so. Those that don't care, just don't care how their "prized possessions" leave this Earth.]
> 
> Horses aren't slaughtered for the treatment of overpopulation. Horses are slaughtered so that Japanese, Italians and Frenchmen to name a few, want to eat them.
> 
> *The whole topic of this thread as population reduction. And yes slaughter does contribute to the treatment of over populating the horse world. And if they are slaughtered for food, then so be it. We kill deer don't we? Have you ever eaten a cheeseburger? Steak?*
> 
> The slaughter of horses is not done in a humane way. A bolt gun to the head to stun only works if the it is dead on, but that doesn't happen when that horse is thrashing and moving in an effort to escape. Three shots, maybe four and he still might not be stunned. He is getting hit in the shoulder, the eyes, the cheeks, and the pain is only equalled by the fear. Where people used to bring him food and water and brush his coat, now they are yelling and hurting and hurting.... finally as he lays there, and not always unconcious, his throat is slashed and he is hoisted into the air by one leg, and his red life blood fills his lungs and his mouth as gasping for air he continues for a few moments longer to thrash.
> 
> 
> *Either way? They are used for food. And they will die one way or another. When they're dead do you really think they care how they left or while they're sitting there that they're really going to think "Oh , I can't believe they killed me that way." I think not. And that's how they kill cows.
> 
> Here is the big if for me, IF every horse was guaranteed that it would not be terrifying nor painful to leave this world, then I wouldn't have the same feelings. A few weeks ago, my little dog, who was eighteen years old, was finally ready to leave this world. I took her to the vet. The room was quiet, the doctor spoke quietly and tenderly to her as she searched for a vein. She finally found one, and the drug went in. My little Lucy whimpered just once, then relaxed, sighed and was gone. Compare her leaving to the horses on the killing floor.
> 
> 
> I've been comparing this whole time. I have been telling you that the owners who breed these unwanted horse and the owners who neglect their horses are the ones that don't care enough to give their horses the happy ending they wanted. You obviously care about your pets. Not every person in this world cares enough about their pets to give them they happy ending.
> 
> And I don't think that you don't care, I'm sure that you do. I just don't think you realize how things can be changed because just one person cared, then another, then another...
> 
> But again, horse slaughter shouldn't be ended because for all those PMU breeders and those that don't care about the horses aren't going to pay to put them down and rid of their bodies. So we would have rotting horses everywhere. People wouldn't listen to the laws even if they put out laws like those of which your imposing. I would rather see the dead horses have a cause after death then sit there rotting. And do you know that if it became a law or whatever you all want it to be just exactly how many people would disobey the law just because they can? You know how many people do that on a daily basis? A ton.
> _________________
> =]*


----------



## Harlee rides horses

Deb said:


> I gotta admit that I am stymied by your fatalistic attitude. You seem to think that there is no point in trying to stop horrible things. If everyone in the world had that attitude, then no one would have tried to stop Hitler from killing Jews and anyone else who didn't fit his idea of the perfect race. No one would try to stop pedophiles, because that is just what they do and why try to stop it. No one would try to stop puppy mills so why waste the money on the SPCA. People who abuse their horses will never stop even if you take the horse away, they'll just get another one later and abuse it, so why try to help the one that is there in front of you. I am saddened quite frankly because I think that there are lots of people out there who are like you seem to be, you just don't care.
> 
> We are judged by how we treat the weakest among us, how we treat the voiceless, and if we don't care, what does that say about us? If we don't feel anguish for the pain of others, what does that say about us? What does it take to make the uncaring, feel again?



Here is how the world thinks.


*Human race*>animals.

Humans are the main factor in the world they decide what goes on within the world and what to do to stop it. Please tell me a majority of people in the world have horses? No. They don't. So thus those people who don't understand the real reason for horse slaughter aren't going to exactly go for or against it, especially given two totally biased opinions. So thus, pedophiles are more targeted than those who send horses to slaughter? Why? Human race>animals. Humans feel compassion for humans. They don't understand the animals whole entire point of view and they also don't understand the owners point of view. Nor do most people understand that horses, mistreated or Pmu bred, are over-populated and the breeding of unwanted and the neglection of animals in itself needs to cease. But also what they don't understand, is that it will not happen. You cannot prevent someone from legally breeding a horse. Because breeding any two horses together isn't illegal. Thus allowing over-population to keep happening and horse slaughter is the only regulation of that over-population.


----------



## Deb

You're right Tim, wild animals die in horrible ways all the time. But are you satisfied with being on the same level as a predator and having a total lack of interest in the "feelings" of the prey animal or somewhere in the evolution of you as a person, do you hope to rise above the person that you were a decade ago, a year ago. And in any serious conversation, the only thing that is pathetic is a lack of concern for the feelings of the weak and the voiceless. 

http://www.equinevoices.org/slaughter.php

All of you keep spouting the same tired line "I just want to prevent horses from starving to death out in a pasture". The above websight has some stats on horse slaughter and even addresses that particular concern as well as others. Do some research, before you make statements like this. In fact, how many of you have spent any time at all, looking for info on horse slaughter, rodeo abuse, or viewed the videos that show what goes on in the factory farms, slaughterhouses, shippers, horse killers, the fur industry? Or do you prefer not to because you don't want to take a chance on having your conscience stirred? Gosh, what if you discovered that something that you saw there, made you feel bad enough to take a stand against it, or make a change in your own lives. What a nuisance that would be.

I am amazed that a bunch of people who claim to "love" horses accept the abuse that horses must suffer and in fact not only accept but would be spokesmen for the continuation of that abuse. I would hazard a guess that you also think that rodeos are a real hoot, and don't really care about the calves and steers and horses that die every year, in the course of entertaining you all. So sad.





=]


----------



## tim

Deb said:


> You're right Tim.


Oh, good. I never thought I'd win over a bleeding heart activist so easily... They're so difficult to talk to. Especially because they have such pure morals compared to the rest of us horse-hating, rodeo-loving, animal abusing brutes... Theres no way I could ever understand their elevated method of thinking. It wouldn't be possible for me to evaluate an issue with some other moral compunction besides the sheer animalistic drive to slaughter innocent creatures, and reach conclusions that in no way reflect compassion and caring for something other than myself.

For me to claim that I have evaluated the issue at hand, and despite having truly compelling sorrow for the creatures that suffer from these operations, have decided to step back from the fine focus and realize that horse slaughter was a major stabilizing factor in our now crumbling horse economy in the USA would prove me to be the most despicable person alive. I clearly do not love horses, especially my own, and therefore I am not worthy of their blessed company.

Why don't I just give up in the face of such overwhelming superior moral capacity? I guess I'm an *** ****


*Edited-Vidaloco*.


----------



## Deb

[Why don't I just give up in the face of such overwhelming superior moral capacity? I guess I'm an *** ****. Tim]


No decent discussion here, just ridiculous attempts at being inflammatory. Or do you have self esteem issues?


*Edited-Vidaloco*


----------



## bubba13

Deb said:


> http://www.equinevoices.org/slaughter.php
> 
> All of you keep spouting the same tired line "I just want to prevent horses from starving to death out in a pasture". The above websight has some stats on horse slaughter and even addresses that particular concern as well as others. *Do some research, before you make statements like this. * In fact, how many of you have spent any time at all, looking for info on horse slaughter, rodeo abuse, or viewed the videos that show what goes on in the factory farms, slaughterhouses, shippers, horse killers, the fur industry? Or do you prefer not to because you don't want to take a chance on having your conscience stirred? Gosh, what if you discovered that something that you saw there, made you feel bad enough to take a stand against it, or make a change in your own lives. What a nuisance that would be.
> 
> I am amazed that a bunch of people who claim to "love" horses accept the abuse that horses must suffer and in fact not only accept but would be spokesmen for the continuation of that abuse. I would hazard a guess that you also think that rodeos are a real hoot, and don't really care about the calves and steers and horses that die every year, in the course of entertaining you all. So sad.


No, _you_ do some research before believing everything on these websites at face value.

For the record, I'm not agreeing with the other side of this argument, either. I don't think that sitting back and doing nothing is the answer. It's not a matter of throwing our hands up in despair and quitting. And I think any praise of Hilter, for any reason, (besides being hopelessly cliche) is incredibly sick.

First thing we need to do is re-open US slaughter with stricter cruelty regulations. Then we need to shut down the transport of slaughter-bound horses to Mexico. Then it's time to educate about overbreeding, put in place a government funded and regulated slaughter/euthanasia industry, and perhaps place government restriction on breeding and animal ownership.

For the record, as someone who _does_ participate in rodeo, I can tell you that _every single_ video you've seen has been grossly misrepresented. It's either the actions of some spur-wearing wannabe idiots at some little po-dunk town's roping who know not a lick about animals or their care (in other words, not a respectable, professional rodeo) or a freak accident that could not have been prevented (ie, horse trips coming out the bucking chute and breaks his leg, not through any fault of the rough-stock handler).

Same with slaughter. It's not at all like what it's cut out to be on those websites. No, it's not as pretty and painless as some would have you believe, but it's certainly not as cruel and heartless (or immoral, for that matter) as you claim.

I suggest you read the other two slaughter topics that have been locked.


----------



## BluMagic

I got totally lost at the Hitler part of everything...

We are still talking about the Holocaust in Social Studies. Hitler was one challenged, sick, icky, crazy, fruit loop! Yuck!


----------



## Deb

[For the record, as someone who does participate in rodeo, I can tell you that every single video you've seen has been grossly misrepresented. It's either the actions of some spur-wearing wannabe idiots at some little po-dunk town's roping who know not a lick about animals or their care (in other words, not a respectable, professional rodeo) or a freak accident that could not have been prevented (ie, horse trips coming out the bucking chute and breaks his leg, not through any fault of the rough-stock handler)]


The Cheyanne Frontier Days rodeo has been exposed several times as being involved in deliberate animal abuse, particularly in the area of shocking horses in the shute which is against the rules. Apparently the rules state that it is only to be used in extreme cases when a horse refuses to come out of the shute. However, it has been documented that shocking is more the norm than anything with the organizers of this rodeo. And unfortunately, the very officials who were supposed to guard against this, looked the other way. What was that you said about a "po-dunk" towns wannabe rodeos? In 2006, Springfield, Illinois rodeo was outed, for the same types of abuse. Po-dunk rodeos? Maybe you're just walking around with your head in the sand because it suits you. 

If you are so absolutely positive that you are right about this, then have the guts to watch the "lies" out there and set the record straight. Dare you.

http://www.sharkonline.org/?P=0000000454


----------



## Deb

Thank God I have a bleeding heart, shows that I have one. As for being difficult to talk to, well I could say the same thing to you Tim. And as for you being "horse-hating", never said that. What I did say, is that there is a bunch of you here, who are more interested in maintaining the status quo. You don't research and you don't inquire. You are comfortable with your misinformation because it allows you to play at being cowboys (grow up), and it allows you to eat your burgers without thinking about another creatures pain. 

I've mentioned several instances in the course of this discussion where animals are being mindlessly abused, and except for one instance (poor duckies) no one seems to have seen fit to check it out or expressed in concern about it. In fact, when I mentioned the racoon dogs being skinned alive in China, someones response was basically why should we try to stop them. SKINNED ALIVE, my goodness, will nothing shake you people? 

drop-your-reins started this thread with a good post, because it lays out one of the methods of attack against the problem of unwanted horses. But even that will only work when there is a change in the hearts of horse people and they all start taking responsibility for the pain and suffering of their fellow creatures on this planet. I don't think those animals should hold their breath though as evidenced by the bulk of the responses here. I'm done.


----------



## Vidaloco

I think the reason you are getting the "I don't care" vibe is that this topic has been beaten into the ground on this forum and I'm sure many other. I know as a moderator who has to read every topic whether I am interested in it or not, it gets pretty old reading the same arguments over and over. Its a very personal subject and one that many hold very strong opinions on. Naturally a forum is a place to voice those opinions. I'm sure you understand as an intellegent person the redundancy in the argument and trying to sway anyone with a deep set opinion is near impossible. I think most of us here do care for horses or we wouldn't be here. In the fact that most of us own horses alone, should say something to our commitment to the animals. By keeping just one animal we are saving it.


----------



## .Delete.

Tim is mearly stating that those of you who have a "bleeding heart" arn't opened minded and don't take in consideration what we are telling you.


Those videos that you see online i can promise you, most are from foregin countries where they have no animal protection laws. So really, you cannot complain there because literally there is nothing you can do about it.

Saying that im doing nothing to the slaughter of good horses is completely not true. I personally have saved 2 horses from slaughter. Along with i have helped over 12 horses find good homes from slaughter yards. So please, don't assume.

You cannot stop the slaughter of perfectly good horses, no matter how many regulations and such they must go through its going to happen. Go ahead, rant all you like. But there are more people in this world (thankfully) that understand that slaughter is a nessary evil. With out slaughter, you think we are overpopulated now? Hah. Think what will happen if slaughter is banned.


----------



## tim

Thanks Vida.

About my last post. It was sarcasm. Like Vida said, don't assume that anyone on this forum lacks love and compassion for horses, and all animals in general for that matter. You won't get a good reception and people will be less inclined to listen to anything you say if you prove to us that you can't even recognize that we all feel sad about the issue, despite the ultimate conclusions we might reach about it. I personally know that many of the people involved in this argument have taken in rescue horses, and spent countless hours volunteering for the good of neglect cases.

based on past arguments, I will tell you this:

People who seem to be supporting slaughter are really supporting the reopening of slaughter houses in the USA. They are only doing this with the expectation that humane laws will be passed that will ensure that horses are treated much better here. They know that in other nations this would be MUCH less likely to happen, and if the USA reopened the slaughters with new humane regulations, a majority of horses bound for slaughter would be much better off.

They support this because they see the problems that shutting down the slaughters in the USA have brought to the horse community nationwide. Rescue shelters are too full and it's causing them to become less effective. Horses that can't get into the rescue shelters often wind up in disgusting conditions where the people responsible ought to be arrested and put away for severe animal abuse. I promise you, some horse owners can do a lot worse to an animal than the slaughters could. The rest, well you know about the trailering conditions when they are shipped out of the nation.

They also recognize that the flooding of horses on the market has brought horse prices down while raising the prices of hay and feed to a level where it is much more difficult to own horses for anyone, especially the responsible owners who try to take the best care of their animals...

...which leads to more animal abuse and neglect as people are less able to support their animals.


----------



## Deb

I am no more close minded than any of you. Which one of you has conceded to any point that I have made, or has even admitted to the _possibility_ that I might have a partial point. Who has actually done any of the searches or looked at any of the sites I've mentioned? As for the videos that I've been seeing, they are videos of plants and labs in America and Canada and in Europe.

Agriprocessors in Gordon, Nebraska
Huntingdon Life Sciences in Europe
Proctor and Gamble and their animal abuse record
Fois gras farms in Quebec, Canada
Animal abuse in the labs at Columbia University in New York City
Horse slaughter in Illinois and in Texas

These are just a few of the video topics that I have seen in recent months. No third world countries mentioned here. The animal welfare regulations that are in place in these countries are largely ignored until somebody gets caught. 

When you guys who breed babies that don't work out like you intended haul them off to the auction, do you stick around to interview and approve the purchaser or do you just collect your money at the window. And some of you have said that you have rescued unwanted horses. Well good for you and I do mean it. But that isn't enough. Just like saving one duck from a fois gras farm wasn't enough and because some people felt that way, subsequently eleven countries were encouraged to ban the product. If you guys who have horses, all walked the walk and quit breeding your crosses, and your cute babies and just one from your favourite mare, etc., your "love" for horses would be far more credible. 

Sorry, just my opinion.


----------



## tim

Deb said:


> When you guys who breed babies that don't work out like you intended haul them off to the auction, do you stick around to interview and approve the purchaser or do you just collect your money at the window. And some of you have said that you have rescued unwanted horses. Well good for you and I do mean it. But that isn't enough. Just like saving one duck from a fois gras farm wasn't enough and because some people felt that way, subsequently eleven countries were encouraged to ban the product. If you guys who have horses, all walked the walk and quit breeding your crosses, and your cute babies and just one from your favourite mare, etc., your "love" for horses would be far more credible.


But spouting off at us on the forums is enough? I don't know you and I don't know what you have done about it other than post videos and articles that adopt a perspective that is intended to shock people. Still, what do you expect from us? We're not lawyers or Congressmen here. * All we can do is take good care of our own and educate ourselves about what's going on. *

I have, in fact read the articles and seen the video's you've posted, and I'm sorry if I haven't brought them up directly but as Vida mentioned, we've been here for a while and we've seen hundreds of examples exactly like those. We know, trust us. 

Also, there was a great topic started by AKPaintlover about what can be done about the crumbling horse econony in the States. If you like you can read it here but I can tell you, everyone who posted shares your opinion about breeding unnescessarily. I think you're preaching to the choir on a lot of points. 

In that regard, I can only say that while we share the same ideas about what is going on currently, we have different ideas about what should be done. Some of us think the slaughters need to reopen in the USA with better humane regulations, and some feel that the slaughters should be closed period. I guess that's just about the long and short of it. We're not going to change our opinions and you're not going to change your opinions either. The argument exists for the purpose of stimulating interesting discussions, not for recruiting new followers.


----------



## Harlee rides horses

tim said:


> Deb said:
> 
> 
> 
> When you guys who breed babies that don't work out like you intended haul them off to the auction, do you stick around to interview and approve the purchaser or do you just collect your money at the window. And some of you have said that you have rescued unwanted horses. Well good for you and I do mean it. But that isn't enough. Just like saving one duck from a fois gras farm wasn't enough and because some people felt that way, subsequently eleven countries were encouraged to ban the product. If you guys who have horses, all walked the walk and quit breeding your crosses, and your cute babies and just one from your favourite mare, etc., your "love" for horses would be far more credible.
> 
> 
> 
> But spouting off at us on the forums is enough? I don't know you and I don't know what you have done about it other than post videos and articles that adopt a perspective that is intended to shock people. Still, what do you expect from us? We're not lawyers or Congressmen here. * All we can do is take good care of our own and educate ourselves about what's going on. *
> 
> I have, in fact read the articles and seen the video's you've posted, and I'm sorry if I haven't brought them up directly but as Vida mentioned, we've been here for a while and we've seen hundreds of examples exactly like those. We know, trust us.
> 
> Also, there was a great topic started by AKPaintlover about what can be done about the crumbling horse econony in the States. If you like you can read it here but I can tell you, everyone who posted shares your opinion about breeding unnescessarily. I think you're preaching to the choir on a lot of points.
> 
> In that regard, I can only say that while we share the same ideas about what is going on currently, we have different ideas about what should be done. Some of us think the slaughters need to reopen in the USA with better humane regulations, and some feel that the slaughters should be closed period. I guess that's just about the long and short of it. We're not going to change our opinions and you're not going to change your opinions either. The argument exists for the purpose of stimulating interesting discussions, not for recruiting new followers.
Click to expand...


Tim, I agree with you. Yes, i do care. But I alone can't stop hors slaughter. Again this topics reason is *population reduction.*

Also you can't stop animal mistreatment. And that why we have slaughter houses, SPCA, animal shelters and whatever else saves the animals. But since we cannot stop animal abuse we can only hope those who abuse, will stop. And we can just take care of our own to our best ability. [/b]


----------



## Deb

You know something Tim, when I logged on this time, I expected to just get riled again, but I have to say, I was disarmed by your sudden willingness to speak without the innuendos about bleedinghearts, and what a pain we are. Throughout this discussion, I have for the most part, felt like I was the only one who had a clue and the rest of the posters here were stuck in some bizarre limbo and could only repeat the mantra about horses wandering on the side of the road or in forgotten pastures dying of neglect and so to be kind we must kill them. And every so often, some bizarre remark about admiring Hitler, or we shouldn't care if raccoon dogs are being skinned alive, or it doesn't matter how bad the slaughter death is, as long as they don't suffer neglect in a field, etc. 

You are irritated that I am "spouting off at you on the forum". Put yourself in my place. I don't know any of you either, and when I expressed a concern and then was treated to the above from all of you, what do you expect me to think. I presented information that I felt was thought provoking, suggested things to look at because I realize that to just take someones word isn't as good as getting information from more than one source and the responses were hardly encouraging. And when I say encouraging, I mean that I didn't feel that anyone of you cared enough to give it any kind of consideration and were happier to just hang on to your old ideas. To me, you all sounded so complacent, no rage, no anger over it.

The thing that you and I and everyone else can do is sign the petitions, speak out against breeding, slaughter. There are people out there who thrive on the front line fights; support them, with either a couple bucks, or your name on a petition or an email to a congressman. 

I am sorry if I have hi-jacked this thread. I would say at this point that I am probably not cut out for being on forums like this. I hope that I have not offended anyone too much, and will promise to hold my tongue in the future.


----------



## Harlee rides horses

I don't think a petition can stop people. Seriously what would it do? Because breeding horses is *legal* a petition to make it illegal wouldn't make it. Because if you banned whoever breeds, crossbreeds so to say, well they would say why can the purebred breeders breed? Thats not fair. Because I know that some crossbred horses are better than some pure ones. It's all in how you care for animals and everything. What would the petition do anyways? Have officials go to every barn and decide whether or not the horses are being cared for? What if they aren't being cared for properly? Then where do they go?


----------



## tim

Deb said:


> And every so often, some bizarre remark about admiring Hitler...


<_< Er... what lol? I guess I'll have to go back and read more... Sounds like it got a little weird before I posted anything.


Deb said:


> I am sorry if I have hi-jacked this thread. I would say at this point that I am probably not cut out for being on forums like this. I hope that I have not offended anyone too much, and will promise to hold my tongue in the future.


Ha, no reason to leave. You can't really base your opinions about anyone on what they say in the Horse Protection forum. Reasonable people disagree strongly on the topic, much like abortion and stem cell research, etc. No one can really blame you for losing your cool. 

You should try the other parts of the forum out before you decide to give up though. Talk about happy subjects some.


----------



## .Delete.

I understand where you coming from Deb with the whole speaking out thing. But i feel it will to a loss cause. People speak out against tobacco everyday. Petition after petition. Yet nothing is considered or done about stopping it completely. Maybe thats a horrible comparison. But its the only one that makes sense to me. Does that mean we should just sit around and act like "Well im going to die anyways, might as well just sit here till it happens". Your right in your speaking out and rallying. But still. I feel like it will be to a loss cause.


----------



## Vidaloco

I think you are wrong there Delete. Public outcry does get results. The tobacco is a good example of what it can do. I remember when you could smoke anywhere, the grocery store, college classrooms pretty much anywhere you wanted to if you were of age. Through public outcry there are whole states that are smokefree. I would say thats quite an accomplishment in a short amount of time. 
The tobacco lobbyists are too strong to do away with it completely, and besides that we all know what happens when something is made illegal that the public wants. 
The American Horse Council has started the Unwanted Horse Coalition in Washington DC. I have posted the link before but here it is again http://www.unwantedhorsecoalition.org/ The key to the horse dilema is education. I think they are working on getting the word out on responsible horse ownership. I know our Registry requires certification for any horse to breed mare or stallion. I think (or hope) all registrys will follow along. I know thats just a baby step in stopping unwanted horses but at least its a step. I'm a great believer in petitions, letter writting campaigns, boycotts etc. If no one does anything, how will the powers that be know there is something wrong? Besides I think it is part of being American to speak out about any wrong. Be glad you have the right.


----------



## Deb

I know that I said that I would keep my mouth shut, but I gotta show you what I found which should be an encouragement to some of you. I think one of the the causes for anguish here has been the transport of these poor horses who are no longer wanted to Mexico where they are really brutalised, and to Canada, which means a much longer trip for them. Well this website:

http://www.awionline.org/legislation/horse_slaughter/index.htm

discusses the bill that is being debated to "end the transport of American horses" out of the country. If it goes through, no more Mexico, no more long ride to Canada. This is one part of the campaign towards horseowners being responsible for their animals. 

And this just came to me, one of the fears is horses that will be left to die neglected in some back field because owners can't even afford to put them down humanely. What if PETA or the Humane Society or ?, had a fund to cover it if an owner couldn't manage it?
And then if poster about the availability of this kind of program were broadcast at horse shows, tack shops, farm'n feed places?

And like Vidaloco has said, education regarding breeding is another step. So you see, writing letters, signing petitions, getting your "panties in a twist" (pardon the expression) does have an effect.

I am not an American citizen, I'm from Canada, but I love my horses, and I don't want yours crossing my border either unless it is to retire to a grassy meadow. Last night, I signed an on-line petition/letter and forwarded it to one of your countries representatives. If all of you did the same, it would be more than a single candle trying to light the darkness. That is how it works folks.


----------



## .Delete.

PETA wont do anything. 


Agree with me or not thats my opinion. Im not saying your stupid for speaking out, its for a lovely cause. Its just what i think


----------



## Deb

If I knew someone was going to send their horse to auction, I would talk to them about all of this and then suggest that if there was no other way, and they had made every effort to re-home their horse, then I would offer to pay for euthenasia. That is how strongly I feel about auctions=slaughter far to often.

I sense a growing boredom with this thread and that's fair. Just remember folks, you can make a difference. Most of you live in America and while you may be incredibly disenchanted with the political system, as am I, there are occasions when you can make it work for you and because you don't know if this or that is gonna be the time it does, you can't afford to lose any "opportunity" that presents itself. Support the above bill. Write your congressman. Keep your horses from going to Mexico or Canada. And if the day comes, that the bill does go through, and all breeders everywhere begin to find that they can't just sell of their culls or their mistakes, or their now boring pets, at that point maybe they will begin to back off on breeding so many unwanted horses.


----------



## kim_angel

Sorry but I believe that as long as we can send horses to slaughter, no one will be cutting down on their breeding.

Its an easy out. Send your unwanted horse to the auction, let him go to slaughter.

We need to prohibit slaughter and enforce strict and heavy fines/jail time for those abusing/neglecting their horses.

Yes there will be a time period while there is a population explosion and a lot of unwanted horses - but they say that most things have to get worse before they get better.

If you do nothing to stop the over breeding, nothing will ever change.


----------



## Harlee rides horses

Yes, that may be so Kim, and thats maybe why they illegalized slaughter in the U.S. It's only legal in Mexico. And you don't see sending horses to slaughter ending now do you? And there is jail time and fines for abusing and neglecting horses, and the horses also get taken away. So your not seeing any changes yet are you? And if we take away slaughter, then there will just be a whole crap load more of dead, neglected horses in pastures. And I don't think anyone would want to see that. So if you illegalize slaughter everywhere, well then, you would have more cases of that. And slaughter seems to be the only way to stop the over-breeding.


----------



## Vidaloco

.Delete. said:


> PETA wont do anything.
> 
> 
> Agree with me or not thats my opinion. Im not saying your stupid for speaking out, its for a lovely cause. Its just what i think


Complacency is a far more dangerous attitude than outrage. 
------
- Naomi Littlebear 
Native American Writer 
The Dark of the Moon


----------



## Deb

[Yes, that may be so Kim, and thats maybe why they illegalized slaughter in the U.S. It's only legal in Mexico. And you don't see sending horses to slaughter ending now do you? And there is jail time and fines for abusing and neglecting horses, and the horses also get taken away. So your not seeing any changes yet are you? And if we take away slaughter, then there will just be a whole crap load more of dead, neglected horses in pastures. And I don't think anyone would want to see that. So if you illegalize slaughter everywhere, well then, you would have more cases of that. And slaughter seems to be the only way to stop the over-breeding.]	
_________________
=]
Harlee,

The three slaughter houses in the States were closed as of 2007, I believe. And currently, there is a bill before Congress that if it should pass will make it illegal to ship horses out of the country for slaughter. And at one time, the roundup of wild horses for slaughter was done in the open, and no one thought anything of it. So things can and do change. But of course none of these things happen all at once, it happens by steps.

And there will always be bad people who do bad things to both people and animals. Does that mean that all the laws should just be done away with because there are some people who don't keep the law? I don't think so. As far as the fines are concerned, they should be much, much higher and maybe that would get a few more peoples attention.

But your statement about slaughter stopping overbreeding makes no sense at all. Slaughter gets rid of the evidence of peoples foolishness, selfishness, but it doesn't stop the overbreeding. 

Think it through. Lets say the bill passes. Now there is nowhere to butcher horses. So this person, who just had to breed their mare so she could raise just one baby, takes that horse to the auction because no one has wanted to buy their cross/mutt horse when they advertised it. But no one buys it for their kids, no one buys it for trail riding and NO KILLER buyer comes along and takes it off their hands. And now that person has to go back to the auction, pick it up and take it home. Now in the beginning some people may wind up neglecting it, but face it, there are more caring horse owners than the other kind. Now these people must deal with horses that they can't get rid of so easily. Do you think that there won't be a huge amount of discussion about the difficulties in owning and disposing of horses now? Given that a cared for animal can be around for 25 or more years, do you think that lots of people who right now think nothing of breeding their mares, might be inclined to think a little more carefully before they do it? 

Short term, there will be some difficulties if slaughter is outlawed, but long term, I think that you will see that it is the right thing to do because fewer people will want to take the chance of being stuck with a horse that they would otherwise have sold through an auction.


----------



## Harlee rides horses

Deb said:


> [Yes, that may be so Kim, and thats maybe why they illegalized slaughter in the U.S. It's only legal in Mexico. And you don't see sending horses to slaughter ending now do you? And there is jail time and fines for abusing and neglecting horses, and the horses also get taken away. So your not seeing any changes yet are you? And if we take away slaughter, then there will just be a whole crap load more of dead, neglected horses in pastures. And I don't think anyone would want to see that. So if you illegalize slaughter everywhere, well then, you would have more cases of that. And slaughter seems to be the only way to stop the over-breeding.]
> _________________
> =]
> Harlee,
> 
> The three slaughter houses in the States were closed as of 2007, I believe. And currently, there is a bill before Congress that if it should pass will make it illegal to ship horses out of the country for slaughter. And at one time, the roundup of wild horses for slaughter was done in the open, and no one thought anything of it. So things can and do change. But of course none of these things happen all at once, it happens by steps.
> 
> And there will always be bad people who do bad things to both people and animals. Does that mean that all the laws should just be done away with because there are some people who don't keep the law? I don't think so. As far as the fines are concerned, they should be much, much higher and maybe that would get a few more peoples attention.
> 
> But your statement about slaughter stopping overbreeding makes no sense at all. Slaughter gets rid of the evidence of peoples foolishness, selfishness, but it doesn't stop the overbreeding.
> 
> Think it through. Lets say the bill passes. Now there is nowhere to butcher horses. So this person, who just had to breed their mare so she could raise just one baby, takes that horse to the auction because no one has wanted to buy their cross/mutt horse when they advertised it. But no one buys it for their kids, no one buys it for trail riding and NO KILLER buyer comes along and takes it off their hands. And now that person has to go back to the auction, pick it up and take it home. Now in the beginning some people may wind up neglecting it, but face it, there are more caring horse owners than the other kind. Now these people must deal with horses that they can't get rid of so easily. Do you think that there won't be a huge amount of discussion about the difficulties in owning and disposing of horses now? Given that a cared for animal can be around for 25 or more years, do you think that lots of people who right now think nothing of breeding their mares, might be inclined to think a little more carefully before they do it?
> 
> Short term, there will be some difficulties if slaughter is outlawed, but long term, I think that you will see that it is the right thing to do because fewer people will want to take the chance of being stuck with a horse that they would otherwise have sold through an auction.


No, it may not stop the over-breeding. But it does contribute. For those people that can't get rid of the horses, and don't care about them, for say, the ones that throw them in the pasture and doesn't give a **** whether or not they breed, those are the ones who won't stop breeding even if someone will not take their horses. Not every horse owner is a caring one. And I most assuredly don't want to be a person who drives by a pasture and sees 5 dead horses while 4 others are half dead. Would you want to see that? I personally cannot see horse neglect and abuse stopping completely, and until it does, I think their should be things, slaughter so to say, to help with the ignorant people who feel the need to get themselves into something they can't handle, nor want to. So thus, over-breeding won't stop with just fines. Nor will animal abuse or anything of those sorts. Some people are so ignorant that they break laws just because they can. Now how do we stop them other than adding laws that are already there? And why let all their mistakes keep living horrid lives?


----------



## Deb

(No, it may not stop the over-breeding. But it does contribute.- Harlee rides horses)



Do you realize that in those two sentences you have just agreed with me? Having an easy out, an easy way to get rid of unwanted horses encourages overbreeding.

If outlawing slaughter contributes to fewer people breeding just any old horse they have, there will be fewer horses in the market place. It therefore seems that with fewer horses, wherever there is a case of abuse, there is more likely to be a rescue operation that can take them when they do show up.


----------



## .Delete.

I disagree completely. Where will all over over-bred horses and the ones that no one cares about go to? If we don't have slaughter then we will see wild horses running through our back yards. Just because slaughter isn't there doesn't mean people are goin to stop breeding they arn't going to stop and think "Ohmy, slaughter is gone there-for my in-bred crossbred confirmationally incorrect baby that im going to get wont have a place to go so i don't have to starve him to death." No, people arn't that smart, people don't think. I *strongly* disagree with slaughter encouraging over-breeding.


----------



## kim_angel

Harlee rides horses said:


> Yes, that may be so Kim, and thats maybe why they illegalized slaughter in the U.S. It's only legal in Mexico. And you don't see sending horses to slaughter ending now do you? And there is jail time and fines for abusing and neglecting horses, and the horses also get taken away. So your not seeing any changes yet are you? And if we take away slaughter, then there will just be a whole crap load more of dead, neglected horses in pastures. And I don't think anyone would want to see that. So if you illegalize slaughter everywhere, well then, you would have more cases of that. And slaughter seems to be the only way to stop the over-breeding.


No I dont see sending horses to slaughter now because people still have that option. Take away that option. No horses can be exported to Mexico or Canada for slaughter. 

We are not seeing any changes yet because there is still slaugther options. And it wont be over night. There is no fast fix. Its going to take time.

I highly doubt we will have wild horses running through the streets. Yes we will see more neglect cases. But if you dont start somewhere it will never end. People will continue to over breed. When they see the market is full, there is no easy option to send a horse to slaughter and there are stiff penalties for neglect - then we will see change.

How is slaughter stopping overbreeding? Thats the most absurd thing I have ever read. It doesnt stop it. LOL
Its an option to get rid of unwanted horses so you can breed MORE.


----------



## .Delete.

Slaughter isn't stopping Overpopulation, its helping keeping it under control. Just because slaughter is stopped doesn't mean that they are going to stop breed. Just because slaughter isn't around anymore they arn't going to stop and think "Hmmm there are already too many horses in this world thats creating a very big problem." Like i said people are stupid, they *don't care*.


----------



## Deb

[Slaughter isn't stopping Overpopulation, its helping keeping it under control. Just because slaughter is stopped doesn't mean that they are going to stop breed. Just because slaughter isn't around anymore they arn't going to stop and think "Hmmm there are already too many horses in this world thats creating a very big problem." Like i said people are stupid, they don't care.	
_________________
.Delete. 
Horses, they are what you make them.]



_But maybe their thinking will be along the lines of I might be stuck with another horse so maybe I just won't breed my mare. _


----------



## .Delete.

_I highly doubt it_


----------



## Abby

If hay prices weren't so high then there wouldn't be a bad as a problem I don't think. Think of it this way:

Gas Prices go up so the want for a car goes down. Cars need gas to work and gas is expensive making the price of car keeping expensive. The same goes for horses, except unlike cars we cant take them to an impound and have them crushed without having our hearts broken and being inhumane. 

If the price of hay would go down, keeping horses wouldn't be as expensive because that in turn would obviously make horses cheaper to feed and then board fees would drop and horse owners would be more likely to consider purchasing a second or third horse.

Unfortunately the hay prices are high due to the drought that we had, which is almost an unstoppable an inevitable thing, its caused by nature thus it cannot be controlled. Because there is hay shortages people are having a hard time finding the money to pay for the horses they already have so they try to make an extra dollar and stud out their stallions or sell their foals etc which is almost the complete OPPOSITE of what the economic horse cycle needs. There is a delicate balance between hay prices, horses per owner, and the price to maintain a horse. All and all, the hay price determines the price of horse keeping, flat and simple. As hay prices rise, people cant afford horses and sell bringing the level of unwanted horses up a notch or two, not only that, before the drought happened, bred mares were in foal, and then they created all those foals which created even MORE HORSES into a place of unwanted horses to begin with. Now the cycle continues because a lot of people don't realize the amount of horses we already have or are expecting from before the hay shortage began and now we are "stuck" with all these horses but in reality, a repsonsible breeder wouldn't breed without knowing they have A. Time. B. Space. and more importantly C. MONEY to fund the new foal(s) they are expecting almost a year from now. They would have money set aside and many reputable breeders don't. Despite the fact they are reputable and known doesn't make the responsible according to the three reasons I stated above. They THINK they will have the time, space, and money given the foals they have sell but what if something comes up and they don't sell? Now they have last years foals and this years foals to sell. :} 

How do we prevent it? It is simple as stop breeding horses unless you plan on keeping the foal yourself throughout is life. It is very very simple as that. We have so many horses as it is, there is absolutely no possible reason we should be creating more, there is more than enough horses out there for everyone to have one or two. I don't think slaughter should be an option, a more humane way to approach it is to create a law that mandates and watches registered horse breeders and depending on their facility they may only have X amount of foals per year and if they go over that limit, they pay a fine and risk losing their breeding license. If someone would like to breed their mare to have a foal like her the law would be she has to keep the foal and it is a against the law to sell it, similar to what rescue organizations do. Its against their policy to sell/breed or re-home the horse you rescue.

Something of that stature put into play will surely help the cycle of things fall back into place over time. It will not happen over night and surely wont happen in a week. It may take years but it is something that will eventually help put the cycle back in check.


----------



## .Delete.

Overpopulation has been a problem even before the raised hay prices.


----------



## .Delete.

Oh..we arn't talking about the horse market. We are talking about overpopulation. When you said "makeing a horse cheaper, more inclined to buy one or two horses" That creates a bigger problem for overepopulation, which again this subject is about.


----------



## Abby

Well if people never get any more horses where are the ones we have going to go? And yes I was talking about overpopulation. People need to buy the horses and give them a non-breeding home in order to bring the population down.


----------



## Harlee rides horses

Deb said:


> (No, it may not stop the over-breeding. But it does contribute.- Harlee rides horses)
> 
> 
> 
> Do you realize that in those two sentences you have just agreed with me? Having an easy out, an easy way to get rid of unwanted horses encourages overbreeding.
> 
> If outlawing slaughter contributes to fewer people breeding just any old horse they have, there will be fewer horses in the market place. It therefore seems that with fewer horses, wherever there is a case of abuse, there is more likely to be a rescue operation that can take them when they do show up.



Fist off, no I didn't. What would possibly between those 2 sentences make you think I was agreeing with you. I said it contributes, maybe you misunderstood me, I meant it contributes to the control of it. As in it decreases it. 

They have gotten rid of the slaughter houses, do you see people caring anymore about stopping breeding? No, people are too **** ignorant to realize or care.


----------



## Deb

_Harlee, the way you responded," that slaughter may not stop over-breed, but it does contribute" (to overbreeding?), seems like you're saying that slaughter contributes to overbreeding. From your phrasing that was the impression that I got. 
_
"They have gotten rid of the slaughter houses, do you see people caring anymore about stopping breeding? No, people are too **** ignorant to realize or care." 


I don't have the time to go through every post, but I'm just going to lay down the question for you to consider, how many of the people like with the same opinion as you, venture onto the breeding threads, and tell people who are considering breeding their mares, not to do it for the sake of the thousands of unwanted horses that languish for lack of a loving owner? I know that there were a couple folks, like myself, who got upset when someone was asking whether she should breed her mare with an offset leg (a defective horse, like why would you even have to ask?) and also when someone was seeking advice about becoming a "small-time" breeder. Were you one of those who got upset and said don't do it? Or were you and the others like you, giving cheery suggestions,and saying things like "I can hardly wait to see pictures" and "I'll buy your baby if it's an (whatever breed)" etc. If you are really sad about horses going to slaughter and being neglected, then you should be halfway down the throat of anyone who even suggests or hints that they may breed their horse just because they can. 

I was on a vegetarian forum a while back, arguing the case for purebred dog breeders vs. backyard breeders in a discussion about adopting rescues and reducing the unwanted pet population by spaying and neutering. And I took a beating for it. NO ONE there agreed with me. But you know something, they were more right than me. And I think that the same philosophy applies to horses. The only way that the number of slaughter horses and neglected horses is going to go down, is if people like you and me get on the cases of those who breed their animals without giving it a second thought.


----------



## tim

About overpopulation and the "unwanted horse" with regards to the U.S. government.

1. The government is not going to solve this problem for us.

2. There is no Federal Law against horse slaughter and eating horses. It passed the House but was never considered in the Senate.

3. The laws against slaughter are all State laws, mostly from Texas. 

4. There are laws currently being considered that will ban the exportation of horses to other nations for slaughter.

The best solution to the problem is to take responsible care of your own horses and influence the decisions of others to do the same. 

And for the first time in the history of this industry, euthanization is being considered for the disposal of unwanted horses. This has been a method of controlling dog and cat populations for years but it has never been considered before now for horses on the same scale. There might come a time when the most common procedure for unwanted and neglected horses is euthanization.


----------



## Deb

Like any other issue in life, the government can't solve the problem unless you want to live some kind of science fiction life where big brother decides EVERYthing for you. You are so right Tim, that it is up to individuals to deal with these kind of things and just like with too many dogs and cats, it begins with people choosing to be responsible and not breed their mares, or using their stallions to make a few extra bucks.

The little purebred chihuahua that we had was gorgeous, absolutely but you know, she never had puppies even though there would have been no problem finding people to buy her puppies. Knowing how often dogs wind up with people who don't take care of them or love them, we decided never to take a chance with her puppies. So she never had any! That is responsible.

As far as euthenasia for horses, well, beats a bolt gun that misses the mark the first couple times, or a knife to the spine. Our little dogs kidneys finally gave out (she was almost 18 years old) and it was so peaceful. I hope I go as easily. And if that is what unwanted horses have to look forward to, then close the slaughterhouses, close the borders. 

I'm not so stupid that I think that everyone will make the same choices that I have made with my animals. But I also don't want horses being terrorised and abused and butchered like they have been. In a perfect world, there wouldn't be even a need for a conversation like this but all things considered, your suggestion that that is the way of the future seems to me to be a better deal for the horses.


----------



## .Delete.

I smell a republican.


----------



## kim_angel

tim said:


> And for the first time in the history of this industry, euthanization is being considered for the disposal of unwanted horses. This has been a method of controlling dog and cat populations for years but it has never been considered before now for horses on the same scale. There might come a time when the most common procedure for unwanted and neglected horses is euthanization.


This sounds like a more reasonable way to control the horse population.


----------



## nikelodeon79

The biggest issue isn't what to do with today's unwanted horses, it's how to prevent more unwanted horses from being born. There is a petition out there to reopen the slaughter plants and a friend of mine wrote a response, basically saying the reopening of the slaughter plants as they were is not the answer. Here is an excerpt from that letter as it relates to overbreeding:



> We have OVER bred horses in this country for years and now we have to take responsibility for our crime. Unfortunately the horses will die off at no fault of their own. The market will come back when the undesirable critters are gone, very SAD to think of and say! MAYBE, IF folks stop breeding with no intended buyers lined up that would help... do you think???
> 
> They cry "over population", WELL..... then they should only do selective BREEDING! Everyone and their brother has a stud in their back yard that is the answer to everyone else's dreams!


----------



## Harlee rides horses

nikelodeon79 said:


> The biggest issue isn't what to do with today's unwanted horses, it's how to prevent more unwanted horses from being born. There is a petition out there to reopen the slaughter plants and a friend of mine wrote a response, basically saying the reopening of the slaughter plants as they were is not the answer. Here is an excerpt from that letter as it relates to overbreeding:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have OVER bred horses in this country for years and now we have to take responsibility for our crime. Unfortunately the horses will die off at no fault of their own. The market will come back when the undesirable critters are gone, very SAD to think of and say! MAYBE, IF folks stop breeding with no intended buyers lined up that would help... do you think???
> 
> They cry "over population", WELL..... then they should only do selective BREEDING! Everyone and their brother has a stud in their back yard that is the answer to everyone else's dreams!
Click to expand...

You can't just expect people to get rid of their high and mighty horses that they love ever so dearly... You can't expect everyone to do selective breeding either. What about the horses that are specifically kept able to be specifically bred, even the great ones have accidents. What if a great Qh stallion gets loose and breeds to some magnificent standardbred? What do you have now? You will still have accidents, and ignorant people. The only people who follow petitions are the ones who sign them.


----------



## Deb

[


You can't just expect people to get rid of their high and mighty horses that they love ever so dearly... You can't expect everyone to do selective breeding either. What about the horses that are specifically kept able to be specifically bred, even the great ones have accidents. What if a great qh stallion gets loose and breeds to some magnificent standardbred? What do you have now? You will still have accidents, and ignorant people. The only people who follow petitions are the ones who sign them.[/quote]

You darn well should expect that selective breeding should take place. I don't want to see horses disappear from the face of the earth either. But I don't think that you or your neighbour should breed your mangy old mutt of a horse just because in your eyes, she is so wonderful and that is exactly what happens too often. 

What petitions do is encourage politicians to make laws that force ignorant fools to do what is right. That's why we have traffic laws, and laws about stealing, etc. and yes you are right, some people will break those laws but for the majority of people who are law-abiding but can't think past their nose about what is the right thing to do, it will show them what must be done and they will comply. The only reason that we need so many laws in this world is that people are selfish and want what they want what they want.....


----------



## Harlee rides horses

Deb said:


> [
> 
> 
> You can't just expect people to get rid of their high and mighty horses that they love ever so dearly... You can't expect everyone to do selective breeding either. What about the horses that are specifically kept able to be specifically bred, even the great ones have accidents. What if a great qh stallion gets loose and breeds to some magnificent standardbred? What do you have now? You will still have accidents, and ignorant people. The only people who follow petitions are the ones who sign them.


You darn well should expect that selective breeding should take place. I don't want to see horses disappear from the face of the earth either. But I don't think that you or your neighbour should breed your mangy old mutt of a horse just because in your eyes, she is so wonderful and that is exactly what happens too often. 

What petitions do is encourage politicians to make laws that force ignorant fools to do what is right. That's why we have traffic laws, and laws about stealing, etc. and yes you are right, some people will break those laws but for the majority of people who are law-abiding but can't think past their nose about what is the right thing to do, it will show them what must be done and they will comply. The only reason that we need so many laws in this world is that people are selfish and want what they want what they want.....[/quote]

True. But did you not read what Tim posted?


----------



## Deb

[quote="Harlee rides horses"

True. But did you not read what Tim posted?[/quote]

Yes I did, and this is what I said in response to his statement about euthanising horses " but all things considered, your suggestion that that is the way of the future seems to me to be a better deal for the horses".


----------



## .Delete.

The government cannot fix all our problems. Somethings we just have to deal with. Deb, you need to calm down.


----------



## nikelodeon79

.Delete. said:


> The government cannot fix all our problems. Somethings we just have to deal with. Deb, you need to calm down.


The problem is, people are not dealing with it. Overbreeding of horses continues to happen. I saw an online ad for a stable that had 40 weanlings for sale. 40!!!

I don't think Deb is being irrational. She is merely stating her point, which she has every right to do. She seems pretty calm to me. ;-)


----------



## Harlee rides horses

People aren't dealing with it because they have enough sense to know that horse slaughter contributes to the deduction of horses that are over-bred. The online ad for the weanlings for sale, they must have many many mares that they feel are breeding material. Over-breeding happens because people are ignorant and don't care. And for those that don't care, we shouldn't have to deal with their problems so thus they have the choice to send their horses to slaughter. I agree that Deb does need to cool her jets.


----------



## .Delete.

Yes, foal crops, thats how some people make a living. I have been to many farms three in Texas one in Flordia that raise filly and colt crops, their entire years worth of pay depends on those crops.


----------



## kim_angel

So in reality, those people are no better than those that run "puppy mills" - mass breeding for profit.


----------



## tim

kim_angel said:


> So in reality, those people are no better than those that run "puppy mills" - mass breeding for profit.


Exactly.

In the horse industry, everyone knows you can make money on the sale of horses. When some people put two and two together, they realize that by breeding mares excessively every season, they stand to make some money in eleven months. They think that because they can make babies, they can manufacture money. 

Of course, like every other profitable enterprise, it's not that simple. The problems we see these days partly stem from people's lack of understanding and from the over-simplification of the issue that results from that.


----------



## .Delete.

I love how Tim just ends the entire conversations.

Cheers.


----------



## drafthorse01

Deb said:


> I am sorry but I absolutely don't agree with you. Have you ever done a search on "Horse slaughter"? Do you have any idea what the shipping of horses for slaughter is like, or what the poor animals face when they get to the slaughter house. The sheer brutality of the whole process is horrendous. I saw one video where a stock truck arrived with a horses hoof stuck through one of those openings in the side of it. They cut its foot off so that they could get it out, then hauled the poor animal out with a chain. Horses are not fed or watered for sometimes several days at a time on the road as it affects the schedule. The people (and I use the term loosely) in the slaughterhouse, hit them, scream at them, all in an effort to keep the line moving. The bolt gun used to stun them isn't always effective. The target is moving, so instead of one good shot where it does what it is supposed to do, it might take as many as four shots, each time causing only more pain and terror. And horse slaughter is banned in most of the states, but apparently not all. So the extra horses that you see standing in auction yards all over the country are going to be subjected to long trips, without food, without water. And there are no laws to protect them. They are victims.
> 
> They are victims of everyones need to let their mare have one baby because they are so cute. They are victims of people who turn that sweet mare that has obvious problems that preclude her from being a working horse, into a broodmare. Next time you drive by a field full of babies frolicking in the sunshine, ask yourself how many of them will wind up on the killing floor.
> 
> I have two mares that have never been bred. They never will be and I moved from one side of the country to the other so that I could buy a piece of property that had fields for them to wander in until the end of their days. People like me are horse lovers, we love them enough not to bring more into the world.


Well Horses are still being slaughtered now they just have to travel further Mexico Canada american Horses still have to travel.
All the non slaughter did is make it illegal here.
I believe slaughter has it's place it just neede to be much more humane transport and all.
Now horses face a much worse choice where I am the neglect and strarving of horses has increased a lot hay has trippled in cost.
So now the people that where barley feeding there Horses don't.
Ranches that have working Horses which they don't keep unless they can earn there living are taking them to either there far off pasture where other horses take care of them or they shoot them.
That is just so much better.
I have two Horses both mares 1 draft 1 Arab bot have never been bred and won't be while I own them.
But there are way to many Horses out there and more are born everysday with little to no purpose other than someone didn't have a better use for there mare.


----------



## drafthorse01

tim said:


> About overpopulation and the "unwanted horse" with regards to the U.S. government.
> 
> 1. The government is not going to solve this problem for us.
> 
> 2. There is no Federal Law against horse slaughter and eating horses. It passed the House but was never considered in the Senate.
> 
> 3. The laws against slaughter are all State laws, mostly from Texas.
> 
> 4. There are laws currently being considered that will ban the exportation of horses to other nations for slaughter.
> 
> The best solution to the problem is to take responsible care of your own horses and influence the decisions of others to do the same.
> 
> And for the first time in the history of this industry, euthanization is being considered for the disposal of unwanted horses. This has been a method of controlling dog and cat populations for years but it has never been considered before now for horses on the same scale. There might come a time when the most common procedure for unwanted and neglected horses is euthanization.


[/colo



That would be great except it isn't that expensive to euthanize a dog or cat but a Horse.
I have had several friends that had to go that route and about 400 dollars later they where there.
Between the vet and the disposal of the Horse it isn't cheap.
And a lot of places that use Horses for commercial use used to take there Horse to slaughter because they still got some money out of them and it didn't cost them to get rid of the animal.
But I absolutley agree with you on we all need to do our part to quit creating more horses just to fing something to do for that mare.
Breeding if done at all should be done to improve on the Horse not to just use a mare because it has no other job.


----------

