# Why do many Arabian ads say No Minstril breeding?



## Macimage (Jan 16, 2010)

Hi all,

I am new to this forum and am enjoying reading all the posts.

I have been looking at ads for Arabians, as my current favorite that I foaled out is now 29 years old. I am not in the market yet, as I think we have another 3-5 years, but it's fun to look.

I see may ads say "No Minstril" as though that is an undesirable breeding sire. I have been out of touch on the top names in breeding for a long time.

I have done several Google searches and can not find anything as to why you would not want to have his breeding in the pedigree. 

Thanks for any info!
Joyce


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

I did some research and found out that his blood is thought to be "impure."


ARABIAN HORSES


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## Macimage (Jan 16, 2010)

Thank you very much for taking the time to research my question. That is great information and the link explains it very well.

Joyce


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Wow, this is news to me...... I take it that you are referring to the stallion The Minstril? I'll have to look into that, I hadn't heard of that.

Is there a link that mentions this? I'd like to read bout it, The Minstril has some VERY well-known and very famous bloodlines on both his sire and dam's side.... Have to say I am doubtful about his being "impure"... but I would like to find out what portion of his pedigree is under suspicion....


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

I have seen that statement in ads for Straight Egyptian stallions and mares-- It is my understanding that The Minstril *IS* Straight Egyptian, and since he was/is very popular has been widely used fro breeding Straight Egyptians, so advertising "no The Minsrtil" is attractive to people with The Minstril blood already in their herds who are looking for unrelated or less related breeding stock.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

After reading the link provided by CloudsMystique, I also did a little digging, and it appears that the question of purity regarding The Minstril (actually its a question about very distant ancestors) stems from ONE person's published research-- where this person apparently also calls into question 700 other straight Egyptian horses. 

Here is a link to an archived discussion including quotes from the research and commentary from the researcher and those (including Arabian breeders in Egypt)who disagree with her, and/or have conflicting information, and/or question her methods and/or motives. 

It is very interesting reading-- 

Nasralla (shahriar) (1956 - StraightEgyptians.com Forum Straight Egyptians - The Egyptian Arabian Horses Resource


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

At the archived discussion I posted, of particular interest to your question are posts 1, 14, 18, 23, 27, 32-36, 46.....82, 83-87, and etc. its all interesting, but those posts mention the Minstril and the controversy.

Also, post 22 here--
Any Doubt About The Purity Of Farid Hp? - StraightEgyptians.com Forum Straight Egyptians - The Egyptian Arabian Horses Resource

Posts 6 and 7, 11,25, and 37 here--
Q. Is Exochorda Pure Arabian Mare? - StraightEgyptians.com Forum Straight Egyptians - The Egyptian Arabian Horses Resource


AND, this whole thread, which is commentary on the original poster's question"Why "No Minstril"?
Why No Ministril? - StraightEgyptians.com Forum Straight Egyptians - The Egyptian Arabian Horses Resource


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## CheyAut (Nov 26, 2008)

Easttowest's post about so many having him in their SE pedigrees is what I've heard. BTW, I LOOOVE him, and know a GORGEOUS son of his my mare will be re-bred to next month  (she was bred to him two springs ago but lost the foal).


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## Macimage (Jan 16, 2010)

Thank you for the links Eastowest. I have read 22 pages of the 44 pages in the last link you posted. It is quite interesting and does answer my question. 

Thank you!
Joyce


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Agreed with Eastowest. Although some doubt lingers, the Egyptian Arabians are considered the most pure of all the strains. Having No Minstril in a pedigree based on impurity would mean all non-Al Khamsa lined horses would have essentially the same message. Over-use weakens a bloodline, so horses are often listed as not having a major bloodline to promote their use within a breeding program that has that bloodline. I love the Crabbet lines for their athletic prowess and thicker lines, but I would avoid Crabbet breeding at all costs when breeding my mare because she has *Raffles in her pedigree so many dang times, you'd swear you were drunk looking generations back. :lol: For the most part, the lines have filtered out a bit as the Crabbet breeding has all but disappeared in current day and age, but I'd still rather not take the chance of inbreeding her back to a horse with *Raffles as many times in his pedigree as in hers.

An interesting fact is there was a huge uproar back in the 70's and 80's over Russian bred Arabians. I'm not sure how much truth is lent to it, but the general conviction was that they were not pure due to them regularly being 16hh+ in a generation when Arabians rarely saw above 15hh. If you get a look at some old Russian bloodline, I can see it being truthful as they really lacked the uniform Arabian look of the time.


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## AbsitVita (Aug 28, 2012)

It also causes horses to produce only certain colors, ie The Minstril is a black Homozygous sire. Homozygous is explained at the following link:

Homozygous Black coat color genetics explained


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Innnnteresting! A rescue Arab I picked up was sired by The Minstril and he originally sold for $50,000.00. (I got him for $250). I was told he was "pure Egyptian" on an Egyptian Arab forum.

Are you SURE The Minstril is black homozygous? Because he doesn't look black: The Minstril Arabian (pic appears if you hover over the little picture symbol next to his name) and this is a pic of one of his offspring:


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I always thought he was bay. It's been years and years ago that I worked in an Arabian barn but Minstril was one of the sires they used and all I picture from memory is bay.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

QtrBel said:


> I always thought he was bay. It's been years and years ago that I worked in an Arabian barn but Minstril was one of the sires they used and all I picture from memory is bay.


Yes, he was:


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## AbsitVita (Aug 28, 2012)

I know that he wasn't black himself, a lot of his progeny were black and bay


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## AbsitVita (Aug 28, 2012)

TERMINOLOGY RELATED TO COAT COLOR GENETICS:

GENE: The genetic coding or DNA sequences that determine horse coat color. These 'Genes' are located on strands of protein located in the nuclei of cells.

GENOTYPE: What the genes or specific genetic coding is.

PHENOTYPE: What the horse actually looks like.

HOMOZYGOUS/HETEROZYGOUS: Refers to the gene pairs at a specific location on the protein strand. If the genes are identical, they are Homozygous. If the genes are different, they are Heterozygous.


HOMOZYGOUS BLACK EXPLAINED:

Black And Red are the two basic pigment colors of the horse. Black is dominant. Red is recessive. The Black and Red pigment genes or the "E" Genes are symbolized as follows:

BLACK (DOMINANT):
EE - HOMOZYGOUS BLACK
Ee - HETEROZYGOUS BLACK

RED (RECESSIVE):
ee - HOMOZYGOUS RED

Each horse possesses one pair of "E" (Extension) genes or, basic pigment color genes. The offspring that result from the mating of two horses inherits one basic pigment color gene from each parent. Currently there is a DNA-based test called the Red Factor Test, which will determine which genes are present. See the VGL-UC DAVIS RED FACTOR TEST for additional information.

A Homozygous Black (EE) can only pass on the dominant "E" black gene, while the Heterozygous Black (Ee) is able to pass on either the dominant black gene "E" or the recessive red gene "e". A horse must inherit the recessive "e" gene from each parent to be red. Therefore, it is genetically impossible for a Homozygous Black to produce a red foal since there is no recessive red "e" gene to pass on.

Other coat color variations and shades of color occur as a result of the effects of separate, "modifying" genes located at other "spots" or "loci" on the DNA strand. For example, the "A" (Agouti) gene effects the expression of black coat color in horses at times. The "A" gene does not visibly effect red horses since there is no black pigment.


A (Dominant) - Causes the black pigment to be restricted to the points of the horse (mane, tail, legs) with red expressed across the rest of the body. The horse is Bay.

a (Recessive) - Does not restrict the black pigment. The black color is fully expressed across the entire body. The horse is black.

A Homozygous Black (EE) horse will always produce black offspring, not bay, when mated with a sorrell/chestnut whose sire and dam were both black. A black crossed with a black will always produce a black, not bay, if at least one parent is Homozygous Black (EE). If both sire and dam are Heterozygous (Ee), the chance of a black offspring is 75% with a 25% chance for red.

Here is one of the sources on The Minstril:

The Minstril | Black Arabian Stallion Homozygous | Arabian Foals Black & Homozygous Black


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

This thread is crazy old... :wink:


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I own a grandson of the Minstril and he is homozygous black also
he is also straight eygptian and asil. My stallion is 1/2 polish arab also but I do own his half sister and she is very nice . together they have produced some very nice black rabicano fillies. Can't wait for the next one in April. Shalom


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## ArabBossMare (Jul 11, 2012)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Agreed with Eastowest. Although some doubt lingers, the Egyptian Arabians are considered the most pure of all the strains. Having No Minstril in a pedigree based on impurity would mean all non-Al Khamsa lined horses would have essentially the same message. Over-use weakens a bloodline, so horses are often listed as not having a major bloodline to promote their use within a breeding program that has that bloodline. I love the Crabbet lines for their athletic prowess and thicker lines, but I would avoid Crabbet breeding at all costs when breeding my mare because she has *Raffles in her pedigree so many dang times, you'd swear you were drunk looking generations back. :lol: For the most part, the lines have filtered out a bit as the Crabbet breeding has all but disappeared in current day and age, but I'd still rather not take the chance of inbreeding her back to a horse with *Raffles as many times in his pedigree as in hers.
> 
> An interesting fact is there was a huge uproar back in the 70's and 80's over Russian bred Arabians. I'm not sure how much truth is lent to it, but the general conviction was that they were not pure due to them regularly being 16hh+ in a generation when Arabians rarely saw above 15hh. If you get a look at some old Russian bloodline, I can see it being truthful as they really lacked the uniform Arabian look of the time.


Didn't AHA pull the papers on a large number of Russian Arabians when that investigation was going on?

As far as The Minstril the purity issue comes into play as well as the fact that he was overbred to the point for awhile it was hard to find something that was not bred or doubled back to him. I've seen some very nice Minstril bred horses and I've seen some that looked like they were put together by a committee topped off with horrid legs  

I wouldn't rule out Minstril breeding if the mare was nice but it would depend heavily on what else was in her pedigree. Even though the opinion may slowly be turning now, for awhile Middle Eastern buyers wouldn't touch the bloodline and for farms whose financial survival meant overseas sales it was a big concern. Of course, this didn't seem to be realized until the market was saturated with Minstril breeding.

I don't have Datasource anymore, but does anyone know how many horses are by The Minstril? I think it's over 1,000 but could be mistaken. When you take into account that the Straight Egyptian lines comprise only 3% of the Arabian population total, that's pretty heavy breeding for one stallion.


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## AbsitVita (Aug 28, 2012)

ArabBossMare said:


> Didn't AHA pull the papers on a large number of Russian Arabians when that investigation was going on?
> 
> As far as The Minstril the purity issue comes into play as well as the fact that he was overbred to the point for awhile it was hard to find something that was not bred or doubled back to him. I've seen some very nice Minstril bred horses and I've seen some that looked like they were put together by a committee topped off with horrid legs
> 
> ...


Allbreedpedigree.com provides free geneology for 5 generations before, go to REPORTS and chose PROGENY from the drop down menu:

The Minstril Arabian


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