# Horse keeps laying down (for too long)



## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

So, one of our horses keeps laying down and he oftentimes barely can get up.


We took in this TB gelding as a rescue 2 years ago after his owner passed away. 

Everyone said he was in his late 20's, but a check of his tattoo revealed he was born May 1995, so about 23 now. Unknown history although it shows that he was never raced.

The nicest horse, although a bit of a hypochondriac. Super friendly. Not a mean bone. 

Was VERY skinny when we got him, and he remains a hard keeper. Very hard to keep the weight on.
Vet checked him out; gets wormed regularly, had his teeth done (in two sessions, as they were pretty bad).


The idiot (meant endearingly) keeps laying down for too long every few days. His 5+ hour siestas end up with him not being able to get up easily about once a month.
We put him in the stall at night, as he seems to NOT lay down as long there, and manages to get up decently well there. the idea being that he will rest at night, get up reasonably well, and NOT lay down outside where he seems to enjoy the other horses watching over him and take his 6 hour rests.



He has plenty of life left in him, it seems, but just a bad habit of laying down for too long, and not being able to get up. Needs to be shocked into getting up every now and then. Normally using a whip which is hit on the ground next to him, or on his ****. Hate doing it, but seems the only way he gets enough "oomph" to lift himself up.



Are there any suggestions? Is there maybe a diet recommendation that could possibly help him? He's on senior grain, good hay, and MSM/Glucosamine supplement now. Also tried Coconut Oil for calorific increase.


Just dreading the day when he WON'T get up...




Picture shows his usual position when attempting to get up. He will sit like that for a good while.


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## Bugbegone (Jun 3, 2018)

Ask your vet about getting him on Previcox. Maybe be the reason he stays down so long because he knows it gonna hurt to get up or he's down so long just like the rest of us our legs go to sleep. Anyway the Previcox will help with any inflammation he may have in his joints to keep him more comfortable. Hopefully he won't have the desire to stay on the ground so long... Good luck


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## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

Thanks for the suggestion. Will give that a try, as that sounds very reasonable.



Quickly googled Previcox and found that Previcox is for dogs and Equioxx is for horses. Same drug, just different form....*and price! *


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Just to prepare you, that was the beginning of the end for my old guy. Not to mean his time is right now but it's time for you to start watching him closely for signs that he's ready to let go of this life.


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## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

JCnGrace said:


> Just to prepare you, that was the beginning of the end for my old guy. Not to mean his time is right now but it's time for you to start watching him closely for signs that he's ready to let go of this life.



Yeah, I know, I know. 

The thing is, this old fart has already made me cry numerous times for the last two years: he's sort of been dying like this since we got him.
Every winter we think it will be his last.....and then he jumps around and rears up like he's 2 years old.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Although this is not common, I had a colt foal that did this from the time he was about a year old. He would sit like this for the longest time just looking at the world around him. 

Absolutely nothing wrong with him at all. He had an excellent chiropractor look at him more than once and a full vet check. 

In fact your horse could be the same one from his picture!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Yesterday said:


> although a bit of a hypochondriac.


How so? I understand it may appear that way but dont believe horses _can_ be 'hypochondriacs' - on the contrary theyre usually incredibly stoic & only obvious wiyh pain when its severe. So that much of the time people dont recognise pain until its suddenly obvious, often 'for no apparent reason'.


> The idiot (meant endearingly) keeps laying down for too long every few days.


That is NOT him being an idoot, he is obviously in pain/struggling. And the way he 'sits' id guess the prob is in his hips or hocks or such. I'd be incĺined to get a gòd bodyworker out to him, like a chiropractic vet or such.



> Needs to be shocked into getting up every now and then. Normally using a whip which is hit on the ground next to him, or on his ****. Hate doing it, but seems the only way he gets enough "oomph" to lift himself up.


Please dont do this. He is an older horse in pain.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

I have a 22 year old with a fractured sacrum and a lot of arthritis buildup from a 2006 injury. He is also insulin resistant and has foundered in the past. He is my avatar. He was 20 or 21 in that pic and you'd never know how sick he really is because I spend "a ton of bucks" on the dollface

I have to micro-manage his care ---- that includes *monthly * visits from a highly skilled equine chiropractor and five week visits from a highly skilled farrier. The farrier can't be here more frequent, thankfully I know how to trim, so I take up the slack on this horse's front hooves as needed.

When this horse gets down and does not want to get up, I know he is in pain. When I see his thick mane completely full of shavings in the morning, I Know he struggled to get up because he is in pain.

If it weren't for him seeing the chiropractor on a monthly basis, he might not be here.

Meaning, please have a quality chiro/massage therapist see your horse

Also, your horse being a hard keeper could be indicative of something going on in the hind gut - that's how it was with my Arab (whom I rescued when he was seven and he made it to 29). Vets never like to tell owners the complete entire truth, when it's bad news. I had to listen close and read between the lines, as my Arab came to his end time. The bottom line with his sweet self, was the vet was pretty sure he had tumors in the hind gut. 

I hope you get things figured out with your fella --- he is handsome --- my kinda color

And thank you for taking him in, after his owner passed. That worries me the most with my two remaining horses. They are 22 & 24; my worry is they won't be laid to rest if I go first, and their Fate will not be pretty. Most "well meaning" people really don't stick to their principles once they see how much money an elder horse can cost.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

my 33 year old is on previcox. he was having stiffness issues untill we put him on it. he now is full of spunk and is enjoying his weekly rides.


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## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

Thanks for all the additional replies and the helpful advice.





As for the comment about me calling him an idiot and a hypochondriac: that wasn't mean-spirited. We love this old fella. Can't help but to. The most gentle soul.


What does one do to get a horse up that isn't able to on his/her own? I've been with him for many hours in these situations. He tires himself out trying to get up.

If I catch it early enough, I can coax him up with pulling him on his halter. If he's been lying down for hours and hours, the only thing that seems to work is shocking him enough so he actually gets enough strength together to get up. Not sure what the alternative would be? Any suggestions are welcome. 



This video shows him when I caught him trying to get up after a shorter rest period.
I pull him up by the halter at the end. Sadly, he's been a LOT worse than this. Once up, he recovers very fast.






Added: By the way, I've also wondered if we should just leave him, i.e. not even bother to get him up. Maybe he would eventually get up on his own anyway. But all that laying down surely would be detrimental with all the associated issues, no?


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

ok i am seeing possible back pain and hock pain. i would talk to a vet, get previcox and get a chiro out for him. my 33 year old was lame for about 3-4 months and we could not figure out why. took him to the vet. his neck and back where out or wack. An adjustment and some previcox and he is my go to riding horse again.

The amount of laying down is from pain. my old guy takes a 2 hour nap at noon every day and has no issues getting up. he sleeps for about 2 hours at a time in the evening too and still no issue.


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## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

Thanks KigerQueen for the helpful suggestions. Will do that for sure.
The poor boy has been dismissed as just "being old", which I don't buy, and at 23 isn't even true.
(might have to change vets...)


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

To me, this looks neurological, like him brain is not communicating with those hind legs.


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## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

greentree said:


> To me, this looks neurological, like him brain is not communicating with those hind legs.



I don't recall the specifics of that particular time, but keep in mind that he'd been laying down for hours beforehand. 4 to 6 hours maybe? 

At that point it's pretty much all seized up.


If he would just take his bloody nap for only one to two hours, I bet he could get up at that point. But once he decides to lay down, it's for the long haul!


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

he could have some form of narcolepsy. But old people still get pain meds. Rocket is old and gets pain meds. he is happy to work (he loves to "work") so as long as he is willing i will ride.

rockets issues are old man issues. slight stiffness in the joints managed by previcox and helped with an adjustment. If your vet refuses to do anything switch. 23 is old but old like 60 is "old". not 20 but still full of life. not like he is almost 30.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Yesterday said:


> As for the comment about me calling him an idiot and a hypochondriac: that wasn't mean-spirited. We love this old fella. Can't help but to. The most gentle soul.
> 
> 
> What does one do to get a horse up that isn't able to on his/her own? I've been with him for many hours in these situations. He tires himself out trying to get up.


I got it wasn't meant as 'mean spirited', but pointing out just not accurate, no matter how ...lovingly said. ;-)

When a horse can't get up, you call the vet, maybe put him on med, maybe other treatment to be had. Or maybe time to put him out of his misery. But you don't just force the poor bloke. Pretty sure you wouldn't take to your grandpa like that if he said he couldn't get up?


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

What a heartbreaking video. And so kind of you to care for this older fella. Though 23 is not exactly ancient... I would start with getting a new vet. Get a professional opinion on what exactly is going on, and what your options are. Because this doesn't look like much fun for him or for you.


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## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

Acadianartist said:


> What a heartbreaking video. And so kind of you to care for this older fella. Though 23 is not exactly ancient... I would start with getting a new vet. Get a professional opinion on what exactly is going on, and what your options are.


 Thanks. Will do exactly that.




Acadianartist said:


> Because this doesn't look like much fun for him or for you.


Aye. It isn't. And the reason I am here asking for advice.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Yesterday said:


> Thanks. Will do exactly that.
> 
> 
> 
> Aye. It isn't. And the reason I am here asking for advice.


Good on you.

Is there anything he really likes? Does anything get him excited? I get the reasoning behind wanting him to get up periodically. In fact, I might be tempted to get him up every hour. Just like a patient with a knee replacement is made to walk on it almost immediately rather than lay in bed all day. They don't necessarily WANT to get up because it doesn't feel good, but if they don't they won't get better. Maybe there are exercises the old fella could do to improve his mobility. 

You could try clicker training if there are some really special treats he likes. They can even be applesauce if he can't have anything hard. Use a special bucket just for that purpose, and do it gradually. First, you click and reward for getting up on his front legs. Eventually, you get him up entirely.

Or is there a horse he likes to be around that could be let in to "play" (gently) with him? A pony or mini even, just something to motivate him to push through the pain and soreness. 

I hope you find some answers.


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## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

Acadianartist said:


> In fact, I might be tempted to get him up every hour. Just like a patient with a knee replacement is made to walk on it almost immediately rather than lay in bed all day. *They don't necessarily WANT to get up because it doesn't feel good, but if they don't they won't get better.* Maybe there are exercises the old fella could do to improve his mobility.


(bolding mine)
I think that's pretty much it, also. 

It's summer here, so all our horses are outside 24/7 (except during storms). I did get him up periodically, but he started to lay down at night or early, early morning (1am or so). That's the reason he's now in the barn at night, as he doesn't seem to lay down there as long.



Acadianartist said:


> You could try clicker training if there are some really special treats he likes.


GREAT idea. I did clicker training on another horse years ago. For some reason didn't think about it for this fella. 

Tried treats that he likes, but it wasn't enough to motivate him.



Acadianartist said:


> Or is there a horse he likes to be around that could be let in to "play" (gently) with him? A pony or mini even, just something to motivate him to push through the pain and soreness.


This we tried already. He is VERY fond of all our animals. Maybe too much so. We had and have him with other horses, and goats, but for some reason he uses them as "protection" and lays down even more. They end up sort of watching over him, while he is down. This seems to make him even less inclined to get up. 

I must stress that when he is up and about, he is decently active and moves around well. (Although we don't ride him of course.)



Acadianartist said:


> I hope you find some answers.


Thanks so much for the encouraging, and helpful post(s).


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

My old mare sometimes struggles to get up. In her case the leg underneath the body gets very sore and painful. Equioxx helps. Once she's up, she hobbles the first few steps, then moves normally. I imagine that if she laid down for hours, she would be unable to rise. She naps twice a day. If she would lay flat she would probably feel better too. Sometimes she sleeps flat out- just not always.

Your horse's eyes look happy. Hopefully the vet can figure things out for you.


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## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

Quick update.

He's still with us; alive and kicking, and he still lays down every now and then.

Changed vet.
Various tests. Low for Vitamin E and had Lyme in the past.

Changed diet somewhat. Now on oats, Triple-Crown senior and 12% sweet-feed, & supplements.

Couldn't get vet to prescribe Previcox/Equiox. Said it wasn't needed.


Would like to know from fellow horse-owners with horses who lay down every now-and-then, what the maximum time is that he/she will lay down?

Our fella does it for ~24 hours every month or so.
He laid down yesterday morning around 4am while in his stall.
This morning he got up by himself somewhere between 3am and 7am. I was with him between 2am and 3am, and he was still laying down in his stall then. He was eating hay.
We had flipped him over to his other side after about 12 to 15 hours of him laying down.

He spends the day outside roaming our fields eating grass, and staying close to the other horses, and generally enjoying himself. Friendly as ever.
Still can't get myself to put him down, because I am convinced the quality-of-life is still there for him.

He's been doing this (laying down for long periods) ever since we got him several years ago. Always think it's the last time, and then he just gets up!

What is the maximum time that your horse will lay down?


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

It kind of looks like he's got something going on in his sacrum, pelvic area. Notice how he runs with a hop (his back legs together at the same time). I would find a vet to prescribe previcox for him, it would probably help him out a lot. I don't know why your vet wouldn't, its no skin off of him.

He still looks pretty happy though.

My horses lay down but not for very long. Maybe an hour or two at the max.


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## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

LoriF said:


> It kind of looks like he's got something going on in his sacrum, pelvic area. Notice how he runs with a hop (his back legs together at the same time). I would find a vet to prescribe previcox for him, it would probably help him out a lot. I don't know why your vet wouldn't, its no skin off of him.
> 
> He still looks pretty happy though.
> 
> My horses lay down but not for very long. Maybe an hour or two at the max.





Thanks LoriF.
I will call the vet again tomorrow, and ask more emphatically for Previcox/Equioxx.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

That horse is extremely lame. He either needs to be pts or get a vet who's actually going to do something about it, unfortunately he's far more then a little stiff and the wait and see approach isn't going to get you anywhere. I also wouldn't put him on any meds (aside from the joint supplement he's already on) without getting a diagnosis. Again, if it were more subtle stiffness or low grade arthritis sure, but...it's just not.

It's GOOD to see him running, yes, but it sounds like he has pretty major issues and you have to take into account he's quite likely in chronic pain and simply dealing with it the best he can.

Laying down for that amount of time is FAR from normal and I would be concerned about secondary issues.

I hate to be blunt am very sympathetic but it sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders and want to do what's right for him. I don't know if he's actually 23 but it sounds like that's at least the minimum age. I've known horses in their 30s that look 10 and horses in their teens that look 40, they're all different. What I'm trying to say is if you want to keep this guy going you really need a good vet and an actual diagnosis and "treatment plan" (in quotes because obviously his age and use are a huge factor in how you will treat, I assume pallative care only), there's just a lot more going on here then just his age or some minor discomfort. He may need far more then the Previcox provides to be comfortable. If you're not interested in pursuing this at least as far as *proper* pallative care then I would highly recommend euthanizing. The poor guy seems pretty miserable even if he hasn't given up yet. Please get a good vet, maybe a lameness specialist. I'm shocked any vet would look at this horse and not see a problem.

The problem isn't him laying down too long either, while it doesn't help there's a reason he lays down to long in the first place!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Oh, and just in regards to using a whip to get him up- while I completely agree with loosie about looking at medication and such to help him I do understand in the moment when nothing is working you NEED to get the horse up and need to do what it takes. However, when that's happened more then "a freak thing once" you seriously need to evaluate the horses well being as well as what you're doing about it (are there effective medications to prevent this happening again for example) not just wait and see what happens. They can't stay lying down but as I said above there's a reason he is doing that. If not in pain which he very well may be at the least he's in discomfort and distress. He's not just being lazy. I think being aggressively proactive may be past due here, but I do understand you're not just whipping your horse! You can't just wait for him to get up when he's literally lying down for 24+ hours at a time. Horses should never lie down long, they aren't designed for it and the longer they are down the harder it will be to get them up. In the moment acceptable but overall, past time to be aggressively proactive as I said above.

I lost a mare who had trouble getting up. We knew why and handled it the best she could but eventually it was clearly time, it wasn't her not getting up that we pts for, that was a symptom and a sign of a bigger problem and that it was simply too much for her and not fair to make her continue.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I can't see why your vet is against a trial of previcox. you really have nothing to lose . (by the way, previcox is the canine version of Equinox or whatever they call it . . . it is much cheaper because you use only one quarter of a pill , daily!)


I see this horse favoring his front left foot, . . . for whatever that is worth.




I would insist on this, first. ( the previcox) 

I would also attach a halter when you ask him to get up from the ground. You can actually offer him some support by giving him something to 'pull' agains when he is trying to get up.


you are obviously giving him a best case scenario living situation; soft ground, room to roam, companions close by. . . the works. So, while you may end up deciding to put him down anyway, you have absolutely nothing to regret. you just can know that you have made his way out as good as possible. Aging, and dying, are never pretty. We do the best we can, and hope that the what goes around, comes around, when it is our turn to die.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Sorry but I see a quality of life issue you have some hard decisions to make. He's more then a little stiff. Struggling to get up ,is a serious problem and in my eyes not fair.


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## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

Thanks for all the replies.


I believe the "good vet" is the issue here, and all I can say is that if you have a good/great vet in your area: BE VERY HAPPY.
We're already in the process of reducing our number of animals simply because there seem to be no good vets around here (anymore). It's all good and fine when the animals are doing well. If there's an issue and a vet is required, let's just we have had some pretty horrible experiences with vets. So sadly, we will reduce or even sell-off our "herd". We're also considering moving.


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## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

Yogiwick said:


> That horse is extremely lame. He either needs to be pts or get a vet who's actually going to do something about it, unfortunately he's far more then a little stiff and the wait and see approach isn't going to get you anywhere.



It appears that all the vets that looked at him just dismiss him as being "old", which is ridiculous (he's 24 now).


If I can't have him properly treated, and improve his condition, I will likely have him put to sleep before the cold weather arrives later in the year.
It will break my heart, and it is very frustrating. I had him boarded for 10 days last year at a horse clinic to hopefully figure his condition out. They said to increase food - he has a healthy appetite and eats very well. Always has.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Have you xrayed at all? I'd want to look at the hock and stifle joint, inject all of them, start previcox or bute. He's not getting up because it hurts too much. The sitting position is classic. If he's laying down frequently, not just for a long time, his feet may be hurting too. It would hurt to stand.

Long time ago, I worked at a barn with an old mare. Sometimes, she struggled to get up after her afternoon naps, but always made it. One day we were bringing the horses in off the pasture and she was missing. Long story short, she struggled so hard to get up but couldn't, ended up rupturing internally. We found her with her intestines hanging out the back. Vet was able to put her back together and they walked back to the barn, amazingly. Was pts later that day, tho.


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## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

To be honest, I simply can't understand how he can even stay down for that long, yet still get up, and not appear particularly worse for wear.
His front left leg is swollen this time, but apart from some mild sores, he recovers amazingly well.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I would get a second opinion by a different vet. He looks lame in the hind end. You need to identify the problem area- see if you can inject it and put him on Equioxx daily. 

My old mare is slowly getting worse, but it is hard to put them down when they still seem happy. His eyes don't look distressed when he is struggling to get up. My mare is lame mostly in just one leg. I use diclofenac ointment rubbed onto the painful joint daily in addition to the equioxx.

The problem I am seeing is that if they lack strength getting up, if they can't get up... Then it is time to consider euthanasia. What if he goes down in the snow? 

Get a good lameness vet, locate the problem area. Get x rays if you need them. Sometimes the x rays will tell you if this is something that can be improved with medication or not.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Yesterday said:


> It appears that all the vets that looked at him just dismiss him as being "old", which is ridiculous (he's 24 now).
> 
> 
> If I can't have him properly treated, and improve his condition, I will likely have him put to sleep before the cold weather arrives later in the year.
> It will break my heart, and it is very frustrating. I had him boarded for 10 days last year at a horse clinic to hopefully figure his condition out. They said to increase food - he has a healthy appetite and eats very well. Always has.


Even if 45 there's something going on there. Even if "just old age" old age is not an illness, there is always an actual medical cause that can almost always be addressed if not cured. I wonder if he has an old injury that has become a more major problem.

Unfortunately from that short little video I can say there's a lot going on besides some stiffness or creaky joints. If he has "just some arthritis" it's severe and likely with fusing (which is good- it's not painful then even if it makes it more difficult to move.) I would be very concerned about him going through another winter without some dramatic improvement. TBH I'm pretty concerned as is.

Sorry you're having to deal with this. I know you have issues finding vets, I'd continue to look around and consider bringing him somewhere (if he trailer's ok) quality over quantity. A veterinary chiropractor may also be a good option for him.

ETA- I hope you addressed his vitamin E levels that will only help, however I don't think blood tests are the issue here.

And I suspect the problem is fairly high up. Back end lameness can be tricky to diagnose. I'm guessing he probably is NOT "none the worse for wear" but can hide it pretty well and/or since he's so bad anyways it may appear normal. While I suspect he likely has arthritis all over and yes, hocks and stifles are common culprits I also suspect a back issue maybe SI... Ultimately it doesn't matter though depending on how fair you want to go with diagnostics. I don't think it's wrong to put him down tomorrow without doing diagnostics for example, it's really just a matter of how much of an investment you're willing to put into him, unfortunately for minimal return. I know for me personally I would hope to get a diagnosis and a treatment plan at the least, give him a try. I would probably NOT be spending thousands of dollars on him and I don't think my vets would advise that.

While I do think it's time to make a decision one way or another I don't think either decision is wrong and you just have to decide what's best for your situation. I would recommend giving yourself a deadline and some goals, see if he can meet them and reevaluate then. Winter is hard enough on a sound horse. One of my guys went down on the ice and ripped a bunch of muscle off the bone, he's still lame 6 months later. Better too early then too late.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

IMO, that's not an 'old horse' issue. 24 isn't even that old. He's lame, clearly, in the hind end...& the fact that he takes that long to get up is not normal. I definitely would not see that vet again, that's for sure. :sad:

I am very sorry you are going through this. While it seems like he is in good spirits, running, you also have to remember quality of life. If he is struggling to get up, & is down for hours at a time...that's not normal or healthy - I would see if you can trailer him (hopefully) to a vet maybe that is further away, but better, or get a chiro (experienced one) out to evaluate him.

If you do decide to put him down, I know that is a very hard decision to make, but if it is your only option, it is the right thing to do. I know you will make the right decision. I feel bad because of the lack of good vets, it's ridiculous they would just right his issues off as 'oh he's just old'. It could be an old injury too, that has gotten worse. 

Please keep us posted.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I know I feel badly that it's proving to be so difficult to treat this horse simply from the lack of a good vet. I would also not use a vet that thought a horse laying down for 24 hours was simply old age.

One thought that is interesting and maybe concerning- typically with a horse with trouble getting up (say an old or lame horse with arthritis) they simply refuse to lay down and then become sleep deprived which presents similar to narcolepsy (which is extremely rare in horses). In fact while I've dealt with that a bit I've never even heard of a horse that stayed down for this amount of time. However, this guy flips it and instead of refusing to rest to the point of collapse he just refuses to get back up. It could be his personality, but I'm wondering if there's any additional health concerns or if he's sort of given up on the whole thing.


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## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

Thanks so much for the feedback.
Sadly, I seem to be getting better free advice here than paid advice from vets.


I have received Equioxx today (yeah!!!), and will start him tomorrow on it.


I hate to say this, but last year was really my last attempt to have him properly diagnosed and [hopefully] treated. It's not even completely a matter of money, but I've seen little improvement with several thousand already spent, and I feel it's almost unfair to put him through even more of this sort of thing especially, as the outcome is dubious at best. I did have him trailered to a clinic for 10 days last year, but it didn't do much (other than cost money). 

I'll give him the summer, and should no significant improvement happen by autumn, it may just be time to let this fella go on to greater and greener eternal pastures....which of course brings a tear to my just writing now...


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## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

Yogiwick said:


> I know I feel badly that it's proving to be so difficult to treat this horse simply from the lack of a good vet. I would also not use a vet that thought a horse laying down for 24 hours was simply old age.
> 
> One thought that is interesting and maybe concerning- typically with a horse with trouble getting up (say an old or lame horse with arthritis) they simply refuse to lay down and then become sleep deprived which presents similar to narcolepsy (which is extremely rare in horses). In fact while I've dealt with that a bit I've never even heard of a horse that stayed down for this amount of time. However, this guy flips it and instead of refusing to rest to the point of collapse he just refuses to get back up. It could be his personality, but I'm wondering if there's any additional health concerns or if he's sort of given up on the whole thing.





Interesting concept.
Could you elaborate a bit? Would like to hear more.
The giving up thing I have wondered about several times. When he's down, I really have that feeling also for certain periods. I was VERY close to calling the vet several times to "end his misery". 

"If he's not up by morning, I will have to call the vet." Then I look again, and he's up and eating and being peppy, and saying "hello" to the other horses. 

He also eats hay while he's laying on his side.
It's just perplexing...


And he's been doing this ever since we got him.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

In the picture where he was down and finally got up, he looked lame in all 4 to me.

The problem with a horse laying down so long is that:

1. Horses can't urinate when they are down. This could cause kidney failure.
2. Laying down for so long causes muscle damage. 
3. Laying down for so long causes skin ulcers.

I hope that the new drugs will get him so that he feels better.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Yesterday said:


> Interesting concept.
> Could you elaborate a bit? Would like to hear more.
> The giving up thing I have wondered about several times. When he's down, I really have that feeling also for certain periods. I was VERY close to calling the vet several times to "end his misery".
> 
> ...


I'm not super sure what to elaborate on, nor was I trying to "go anywhere" with the concept, however... I wonder if maybe it's something that WANTS to "go somewhere"...hmmm.

It's fairly common in horses that do not get enough REM sleep to develop sleep deprivation. Horses need to lay down to get REM sleep (though as you know they can doze standing up) and if they refuse to lay down for whatever reason they will eventually develop sleep deprivation, after all if you were only ever allowed to nap and not truly sleep wouldn't you be exhausted? Stressful environment, for example, can cause this (a horse at a new barn may not feel safe enough to lay down) however this seems to be most common in older horses that refuse to lay down due to physical reasons/difficulty. Also, typically the younger horse that is scared will settle in fairly quickly and there won't be much of a "build up" for lack of sleep but a chronic issue will of course cause more and more of an issue.

The result is a horse that will fall asleep "randomly". Unlike true narcolepsy which has different causes and is more random (and as I said proven to be extremely rare/nonexistent in horses) this isn't truly random, for example if the horse is running across the field they won't keel over, however if they're on the crossties, and it's nice and beautiful, and the radios playing, and they start to drift a little- BOOM the knees buckle and you just have to hope they catch themselves before they hit the ground. So it can be "fixed" (in the moment) by keeping the horse stimulated when you're working with them. Needless to say it's dangerous and most horses have sores on the front of the front pasterns from where the knees buckle and they hit themselves. I knew a mare that sliced her face open when she went down in a stall, must have hit a nail or something. Yikes!

https://horse-canada.com/magazine_articles/equine-sleep-disorders/

So, on the flip side, since it's fairly common as well as possible for horses to REFUSE to lay down/get REM sleep why is this horse staying down so long? Does he simply WANT to lay down and that's easy then have trouble getting up and doesn't put two and two together/doesn't care? Or is there possibly another factor?? So like I said, idk what if anything I'm getting at it just seems interesting.

How often does he go down and stay down? Does he roll? How often is he flat out vs on his chest (I find it concerning you say he eats hay while down flat- is he flat the whole time? Lying down a lot isn't normal but flat on his side is pretty concerning) And he's done this at least two years? Have you seen him go down? Does he just lay down, or...?

I knew a mare (since pts) with severe arthritis and she would lay down (essentially keel over since her legs didn't bend!) and we would hold our breath until she got up, however she insisted on rolling after baths and taking naps etc lol. They're all so different however it just doesn't seem like this is normal even for a "worst case" scenario.

Ultimately even if there is another health issue the laying down is just a symptom, but I've never even heard of a horse doing this and I've worked with a lot of horses! I guess it also doesn't change much at this point, but it sure is interesting medically.

ETA- I also rode a horse, an Arab who was in his 30s and I guess was pts after being unable to get up on his own multiple times. He had some preexisting arthritis and it just got really bad. However sadly he was full of life and I guess pranced out to the spot they had chosen, but they knew putting him through another winter at that point wasn't fair and wouldn't end well. While I do believe animals tell you when it's time they simply don't have the cognitive function to say "hey I'm going to go down on the ice in January when it's -10 degrees and since I don't want to be laying there for hours can we just do this now while I'm happy." So unfortunately we often need to step in. I'm not trying to say you need to decide anything NOW but having the plan I mentioned as well as understanding even if he DOES feel good better a week too early then a day too late. I would also try to be aware if he's actually happy or just going through the motions of life because that's what he's supposed to do. You know him better then any of us.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Another thought, the mare I mentioned above with sleep deprivation was a rescue and she had a very serious colic episode. I realized something was wrong when she was laying down sleeping (unusual but good) and stayed down for several hours (maybe not good?) and I went to wake her just to check and she was literally unresponsive (DEFINITELY NOT GOOD) I did finally get her awake and the vet came out and said oh she's colicking. I've always felt that with her sleep deprivation she may have felt SO tired and SO sick and just allowed herself to rest a little and then went into REM sleep and couldn't get out of it. I have no idea how long she would have stayed down on her own. Maybe it would have been better to leave her (so she could sleep), but due to the circumstances of course I felt I needed to get her up immediately.

Not completely sure that's relevant but I've always found it interesting. If your guy is passed out most of the time he's down then maybe it is relevant...hm...


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## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

Thanks Yogiwick, for the insight. 

Interesting indeed. Our fella will lay down "every now and then", but it depends whether he does it inside or out. It's almost impossible to predict, and there seems to be no consistent pattern. 

It may be twice a week, and then not for a month.
He will occasionally just lay down outside for a quick roll, and either be able to get up decently well and fast, or not. If not, he may then seem to rest and get up either because we're around and help him up, or just by himself. The other (and much more of a concern) times would be in his stall, where he has laid down for up to 26 hours. Many of those on his side. 

At one point I thought he laid down more often outside, but I am not so sure it makes much of a difference really.


And yes, he will eat while he is laying on his side. 



I'll also try and post a video of him during his good times. Seems a bit unfair to him to just show and tell of these bad times. 

But yeah, you write: "I would also try to be aware if he's actually happy or just going through the motions of life because that's what he's supposed to do. You know him better then any of us." 

Aye, that's exactly what I am trying to discern.


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## GraceandMercy (May 18, 2018)

I am in agreement with the others -- this guy seems to be in pain and I hope the anti-inflammatory meds provide relief for him. Have you tried corticosteroids? Notice in the first video posted that he poops as soon as he is up -- he needs to be up and moving for proper digestive motility and critical organ function (heart, lungs, kidneys).


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## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

GraceandMercy said:


> ...he needs to be up and moving for proper digestive motility and critical organ function (heart, lungs, kidneys).



Aye.
From everything I know about horses, he shouldn't even be alive with this behaviour. Something tells me he was seriously neglected and mistreated by previous owner (although likely because of ignorance rather than malice), and has been doing this almost his whole life.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

SOMETHING is going on. I've never heard of a horse just lying flat on it's side for literally a full day every now and then. So weird.. And tbh I don't think anyone is making long term plans for this horse, so what you would do short term for palliative care is the question. I still would try to get a diagnosis at least to help you make informed decisions, but no harm in just trying to keep him comfortable and happy for the short term if you think that's what he wants. Like I said no wrong answer here. And since this has been going on for x amount of him could be something that isn't a huge deal to him (as in he's used to it) so with the situation being what it is I wouldn't necessarily freak over it (though, my mind is a little boggled lol if I had the money I would send a top level vet to you with trailers of equipment! Super curious).

I'd be curious to see more videos.

Where are you located? Sometimes people can make vet suggestions.

One thought is if he does go down, you say you flip him- I would also use hay bales to prop him up onto his chest so he's not flat for more then a little bit.


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## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

We're in Northeast PA.


We think alike! I did try hay bales in his stall (his stall is 12x12), but it seemed to be worse for him. He sort of leaned against them awkwardly. I then removed them.
We also switched from "normal" barn lime for general stall cleanliness, to Barn Grip, hoping that would give him some extra grip to get up (out of concern that he was slipping when trying to get up).


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## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

Here's another video. 



First part is from February this year. Bad rain rot. Since recovered and since regained and now back to clearing up again.

Second part is from 2016 (he had a foot abscess and refused to put weight on it, once it was bandaged/packaged with epsom salts, povidone-iodine, etc., but it popped and cleared up just fine shortly after this video was taken.)

The sores are almost always in the same spots on him, from laying down. They clear up fast though.


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## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

By the way, FWIW, this is him (according to his tattoo):
https://www.equineline.com/SearchBy...ame=Iwantogetoff&foaling_year=1995&registry=T


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

He does look better there comparatively but still very lame even though he is moving more fluidly. At the very least I would get him on a joint supplement and while I do think rx drugs would be better for him you can get something like Buteless, better then nothing. And, to be fair, while he definitely has issues worthy of some NSAIDS, all drugs have side effects and while Equioxx is one of the safest ones it isn't risk free. If he does have some more hidden issues that very well could be a bad choice.

Northeast PA- you surely don't have any better vets around? I'm in MA so while I can't advise on specific vets I'm surprised you don't have more options in that area! Would bringing him somewhere be an option? Hopefully someone local is able to chime in.

It may be worth calling New Bolton (or elsewhere, but that's a very well known one that is close to you lol) and seeing if they have any recommendations for vets in your area.


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## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

Cheers,
I also just started him on "Uckele Devils Claw Plus Horse Supplement", after reading good reviews.


It would have been awesome to have had this horse some 10 years ago, as I'm almost sure he'd have had a better chance then...


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

There's some really good equine vets in PA...New Bolton, Unionville, etc...to name a few. May be a little ways from you, but they are out there. Never heard of the supplement, maybe it will give him some relief, but I don't know if it'd actually fix the underlying problem (which is unknown). Keep us posted. He does look like he's in good spirits, I know this is hard.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^Devil's Claw is one of the top herbal "NSAIDS" and is part of what's in the Buteless. While I'm not familiar with that specific supplement either it would fall into the same category of herbal painkiller/anti inflammatory. Yucca is a second for herbal supplements.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

My old mare does well on Equioxx. If this is pain related, i would try that first.

But it could be a mechanical lameness where due to arthritis or other issues he cannot position his legs where they need to be to push up. I almost suspect an old pelvic fracture.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Did the vets do x rays? If this is arthritis i would think it would show. Has EPM been ruled out?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

@4horses I agree with pelvis, but xrays would likely be of stifles/hocks and while I think it's likely an issue I don't think that's THE issue. I don't think "pelvic xrays" are done outside of a vet hospital correct?

Interesting about the EPM, I thought that was progressive. I don't really see anything neurological here but thinking if EPM couldn't it be ruled out by the horse being stable for several years without treatment? Or am I incorrect? I don't know much so just curious for extra info


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## Yesterday (Jul 28, 2018)

No x-ray done...yet. EPM? I just looked at symptoms but can't really see too many that match.




He just laid down outside in a newly fenced paddock. Asked him to get up, and sort of pushed his lower neck to give some assistance...and he got up again. Now eating grass again.


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