# Picking a HUS AQHA stud to breed with an HYPP N/H mare



## barnmom66 (Jul 7, 2011)

I have a mature quarter horse palomino mare that is HyPP N/H and has not shown any symptoms that I am looking to breed. She has had 6 babies prior to me purchasing her 6 years ago.

My goal with breeding her is to get a nice HUS AQHA horse that my daughter can show in a few years.

Anyone have a suggestion of some nice HUS AQHA studs out there that I should think about breeding to?

I do not want a stud that is HYPP in any form...either N/H or N/N. 

Your comments on whether or not I should be even breeding this mare is not what I am looking for.  

Thank you!


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## Starryeyed (Oct 20, 2008)

Just so you know horses that are HYPP N/N would be all horses that dont have HYPP so saying you dont want to breed to them doesnt make much sense. What you should be avoiding is horses that are N/H, although even breeding your mare to a horse that doesnt have HYPP could still produce an N/H foal. I have a friend with and N/H mare who died due to being misfed by a visitor after living with no symptoms for years.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Did You Check Gumz farms they are standing a few nice HUS stallions.
These Irons are hot
Iron Age
Larks oneforthemoney

Welcome To Gumz Farms Kentucky Division


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

In my opinion, breeding an N/H horse is extremely irresponsible and inexcusable.


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## aspin231 (Mar 20, 2010)

The only reason HYPP is still around is because people keep breeding horses with the disease. I can't believe that anyone would consider breeding a horse with a known, dangerous, avoidable genetic defect. I hope you don't breed your mare, HYPP can be assymptomatic for years, so the fact that she hasn't had an episode means nothing.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Just because she's been asymptomatic thus far doesn't mean that she couldn't drop dead from the disease _tomorrow_. With her being N/H, even if you breed her to a N/N stud, you still have a 25% chance of her throwing an N/H foal. Horses that carry the HYPP gene tend to lead very troubled lives and suffer long and excruciating deaths at a fairly young age compared to disease free horses. I wouldn't want to risk producing a foal that would suffer through that.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I'm confused about the reactions to breeding the N/H mare. My understanding is, if she's only bred to an N/N stallion, you have2 chances for an N/N foal and 2 chances for N/H, is that not correct? And no chances for H/H. I realize some horses that are N/H are symptomatic but not usually as bad as the H/H, right? So......if your policy is to geld all N/H colts then the disease will eventually be self limiting, won't it?

I know with SCID in ARabians (which is what I'm familiar with, so that's why I'm asking all these HYPP questions), if you breed a carrier to a clear and then get a clear, obviously no problem. Then if you geld the SCID colts that are born, someone did a study that it would self eliminate in about 25 yrs. 

Would the results from N/H breeding be that different? What am I missing? Why the HUGE reaction by Bubba to the very thought of breeding the mare? I'm really asking to be educated here, not trying to stir a pot. 

Thanks all!


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## aspin231 (Mar 20, 2010)

Dreamcatcher- the issue I see is that HYPP is _COMPLETELY AVOIDABLE _and no horses _need_ to suffocate to death, because we know how to prevent it. Even if it doesn't breed on past this next potantial generation, that's still another whole set of horses that didn't need to be born in the first place, having the potential to have HYPP and die excrutiating deaths.

If a horse that is HYPP N/H is bred to a horse that is HYPP N/N, the resulting foal has a 25% chance of ending up HYPP N/H (I think), as smrobs said.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

HYPP N/H horses aren't the same as carriers. They are afflicted invididuals suffering from a genetic disease that can, in the worst case scenario, be fatal. N/H horses can become symptomatic at any time, even if they've gone 20 years without an attack, which is why many people consider them to be unsafe for riding horses--you sure don't want your mount collapsing out from under you in the middle of a trail ride. Generally speaking, N/H horses are less severely affected than H/H horses, but there are no absolutes, and they can still have a very bad form of the disease. There are dietary and exercise methods for reducing some of the risk, but again, there are no absolutes and no guarantees. HYPP can be miserable for a horse.

Breeding an N/H mare to an N/N stallion means 50% N/H foals and 50% N/N foals; breeding her to an N/H stallion means 50% N/H, 25% N/N, and 25% H/H.


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## aspin231 (Mar 20, 2010)

Thanks Bubba, you're more knowledgeable on HYPP than I am.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Thanks Bubba & Aspin. I've seen affected H/H horses but, of course, no one wants to cop to the seriousness of it all. So, an N/H horse can actually have a pretty severe case of HYPP? I was told 'it will always be very mild form', so was thinking as long as you kept N/H to N/N for breeding it wouldn't matter. If they can be so very miserable, it explains why you'd want to cut it out rather than to try to manage it. 

I knew when purchasing my cremello to check status and only go for N/N, because I don't want to have to manage or breed around a deleterious condition. 

I also only breed SCID clear to clear.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Here's an N/H horse having a (relatively) mild attack:





 
Another horse (unsure of status):


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

The bottom horse looks more like the horse who eventually seized an fell on top of me. I was a show groom for a QH halter trainer and all the horses were N/H or some H/H (babies) and after the big stud fell on top of me I didn't stay long. And of course, since I've pretty much stuck with breeding Arabians to other Arabians or Saddlebreds, I had no need to study it much. 

I'm a lot more interested, invested now, because I bought a Cremello 2 y.o. colt, made sure he was N/N but for his future breeding decisions need to learn a lot more about HYPP.


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## britecheerio (Nov 28, 2011)

Starryeyed said:


> Just so you know horses that are HYPP N/N would be all horses that dont have HYPP so saying you dont want to breed to them doesnt make much sense. What you should be avoiding is horses that are N/H, although even breeding your mare to a horse that doesnt have HYPP could still produce an N/H foal. I have a friend with and N/H mare who died due to being misfed by a visitor after living with no symptoms for years.


 Yeah but if we were told correct breeding an N/N with a N/H still gives you high chances of getting H/H we just put a 3 year old palamino gelding down. We think someone gave him alfalfa as we have TONS of thoroughbreds. Also we were told best if keeping our colt a stallion to NEVER breed to a quarter horse just so that way their wasn't that risk... (idk how true it was)


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

With the known risks of breeding this mare, why would you want to? Why not just buy a younger horse? Now is the time to do that, the market is flooded and they are cheap as heck.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

AlexS said:


> With the known risks of breeding this mare, why would you want to? Why not just buy a younger horse? Now is the time to do that, the market is flooded and they are cheap as heck.


Exactly-and why would you knowingly breed a horse who has ANY (much less 50%) chance of having any disease-even if it is supposed to be "mild"?:shock:


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> HYPP N/H horses aren't the same as carriers. They are afflicted invididuals suffering from a genetic disease that can, in the worst case scenario, be fatal. N/H horses can become symptomatic at any time, even if they've gone 20 years without an attack, which is why many people consider them to be unsafe for riding horses--*you sure don't want your mount collapsing out from under you* in the middle of a trail ride.


This. I have a very close friend who will never have children because of that. Was sold a mare that was supposed to be N/N, certif from vet (turned out to be falsified by seller) Mare collapsed in the middle of a pleasure class, ended up on top of her, horn to pelvis, and she had to have an emergency hysterectomy at 15 years old. 

Breeding any horses with any positive HYPP results even if they are N/H is completely irresponsible imo. It is a disease that could be completely eradicated if people didn't continue to breed irresponsibly. To me, that's sad and shows just how important the almighty dollar can be in the horse world.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I know with SCID in ARabians (which is what I'm familiar with, so that's why I'm asking all these HYPP questions), if you breed a carrier to a clear and then get a clear, obviously no problem. Then if you geld the SCID colts that are born, someone did a study that it would self eliminate in about 25 yrs.
> 
> Would the results from N/H breeding be that different? What am I missing? Why the HUGE reaction by Bubba to the very thought of breeding the mare? I'm really asking to be educated here, not trying to stir a pot.
> 
> Thanks all!


As to the first paragraph, if that is the case then the study is flawed. SCID is not sex linked, thus can be passed through the mare line as well as the stallion line. 25 years is absolutely unrealistic to eliminate a genetic disorder through gelding only...it would take many, many, generations to dilute the gene into obscurity. 

As to HYPP, the reaction is because breeding an N/H horse is no different than breeding a SCID carrier - both are irresponsible because they perpetuate the disease. Whether or not a carrier is symptomatic is not relevant to the principle of whether to perpetuate or eliminate the disease...


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## britecheerio (Nov 28, 2011)

Also you never know if the stress of foaling will create a HUGE problem and throw her into an attack because they can be stress related..


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Faceman, the only reason that only colts are gelded is because to sterilize a mare is cost prohibitive, not suggesting sex link in the disease. I only posted the study as an example why some folks are not for radically eliminating all SCID carriers from the gene pool, as they were when SCID was first discovered. Not implying right or wrong for their breeding decisions either. I'm just trying to corelate the information I'm getting about HYPP with something I understand better, which is SCID.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Faceman, the only reason that only colts are gelded is because to sterilize a mare is cost prohibitive, not suggesting sex link in the disease. I only posted the study as an example why some folks are not for radically eliminating all SCID carriers from the gene pool, as they were when SCID was first discovered. Not implying right or wrong for their breeding decisions either. I'm just trying to corelate the information I'm getting about HYPP with something I understand better, which is SCID.


I understand - I was just pointing out the "study" was flawed. Elementary logic tells you a genetic disease that is not sex linked cannot be eradicated in 25 years by sterilization of only one gender.

Just my opinion, of course, but personally I have no respect for Arab folk that breed SCID carriers. Their mantra that you can avoid the disease by not breeding carrier to carrier is nothing more than rationalization for irresponsible breeding...it perpetuates the genetic flaw generation after generation. It is no different than the TB folk who breed Big Brown, thus perpetuating his ancestry of unsound feet, or a breeder that breeds an N/H horse, thus perpetuating the HYPP genetic flaw.

It is, of course, highly unlikely that these genetic issues can be bred out of our equine population entirely due to the prevalence of ignorant backyard and novice breeders that don't know any better. However, shame on those breeders who do it knowingly, and shame on the registries for registering carriers. Let's call a spade a spade here - there is only one reason a registry would permit registration of a carrier of a negative genetic flaw and register its offspring...money. And money seems to supercede what is in the best interest of the breed and the species. How very sad...there is no logical reason these issues cannot be eradicated from our registered horse population - no reason at all...


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

To the OP. It sounds like you are fairly ignorant regarding the disease itself. It's not really that surprising because unless you are heavily into the QH world, it's not as common information as the folks on this forum are making it out to be. Before I bred my mare who is HYPP/NN, I knew very little about the "Impressive Syndrome", which is the name I knew it by. I knew that it caused temporarily paralysis but not much more.

This is an older website but I feel it will be helpful to you: Index

and of course the AQHA site with information:

AQHA - HYPP INFORMATION

Hope that helps you.


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## nuisance (Sep 8, 2011)

THIS IS FROM U.C. DAVIS ABOUT DILUTING OUT HYPP

Horse HYPP

Myths about HYPP 
Some people have felt that the disease can be diluted out and not carried to distant generations. This is false because an affected horse has just as much chance to pass on the trait as the affected parent which passed the gene to him. Some people also believe the horse will "grow out of it." This is not true. For unknown reasons, attacks of HYPP tend to occur most often at the beginning of intense training and fitting for shows (age three to seven years old). It is important to realize that horses with HYPP are affected for life. It is possible that older horses do not experience the same conditioning stresses as young horses or owners have discovered the best management strategies for the older horses with HYPP. 
Some people also think that if a horse does not show any signs up to a certain age, it does not carry the trait. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Once again, horses with HYPP are affected for life. There was a stallion and a broodmare with HYPP who did not show signs of the disease until age eight and 15, and both horses only experienced one isolated attack. 
Owners and breeders of affected horses should inform prospective buyers of the management constraints these horses have and the potential for future episodes of HYPP


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## nuisance (Sep 8, 2011)

farmpony84 said:


> to the op. It sounds like you are fairly ignorant regarding the disease itself. It's not really that surprising because unless you are heavily into the qh world, it's not as common information as the folks on this forum are making it out to be. Before i bred my mare who is hypp/nn, i knew very little about the "impressive syndrome", which is the name i knew it by. I knew that it caused temporarily paralysis but not much more.
> 
> This is an older website but i feel it will be helpful to you: index
> 
> ...


correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm reading that to say, that if a horse born after 1998 has an ancestor with hypp it will be on the registration, so if my 2007 mare doesn't have anything on her registration, i'm to presume she's negative?

ETA: SHE HAS NO IMPRESSIVE IN HER BLOOD LINE, BUT SHE TREMBLES WHEN FRIGHTENED... BUT STOPS AS SOON AS SHE FEELS MORE SECURE...


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

nuisance said:


> correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm reading that to say, that if a horse born after 1998 has an ancestor with hypp it will be on the registration, so if my 2007 mare doesn't have anything on her registration, i'm to presume she's negative?
> 
> ETA: SHE HAS NO IMPRESSIVE IN HER BLOOD LINE, BUT SHE TREMBLES WHEN FRIGHTENED... BUT STOPS AS SOON AS SHE FEELS MORE SECURE...


Are you being obnoxious with your last statement? I'm not sure I understand the meaning behind it.

If I remember right, this was the first rule change regarding HYPP:

Foals born in 1998 and later and tracing to IMPRESSIVE will have a statement placed on their Certificates of Registration that recommends testing for the condition unless test results indicating the foal is negative (N/N) are on file with AQHA.​

The next one came much later and is this:​ 
Beginning with the 2007 foals, all Impressive progeny are required to be parentage verified and HYPP tested subject to the conditions listed in rule 205. Any that test H/H will *not* be eligible for registration.​

They HYPP portion of Rule 205:​ 
*[c] Hyperkalemic Periodic Paralysis (HYPP) - designation effective for foals born on or after January 1, 1998. A muscular disease caused by a hereditary genetic defect that leads to uncontrolled muscle twitching or profound muscle weakness,*
_*and in severe cases, may lead to collapse and/or death. According to research, this condition exists in certain descendants of the the stallion Impressive, AQHA registration number 0767246.*_​


_*[1]*_
​​The following notification shall be placed on registration certificates of foals descending from the stallion Impressive or any other bloodline determined to carry the HYPP gene:​ 

*“This horse has an ancestor known to carry HYPP, designated under AQHA rules as a genetic defect. AQHA recommends testing to confirm presence or absence of this gene.”*​


When the parent(s) tracing from the HYPP line has tested negative for HYPP with an appropriate designation appearing on their registration certificate, the above notification is not required, and will, instead, be substituted by the designation “N/N”; or, after testing negative for the
gene, the notification may be substituted by the designation “N/N” upon request of the owner at his or her expense.​​​


*[2] *Mandatory testing for HYPP. At such time as AQHA requires mandatory parentage verification of any foals to be registered in either the numbered or appendix registry,
(see 202 (i)) any foal tracing to bloodlines known to carry the HYPP gene shall be tested for HYPP at the time the genetic testing for parentage is performed. The results will
be designated on the registration certificate in lieu of the above notification. Such testing will not be necessary if the foal’s closest ancestors, tracing to the HYPP line, have
been tested negative and designated on their registration certificates, these foals will automatically be designated “N/N” on their registration certificate.​


Hyperkalemic periodic paralysis (HYPP) is an inherited disease that leads to uncontrolled muscle twitching or profound muscle weakness, and in severe
cases, may lead to collapse and/or death. HYPP is listed as a genetic defect in AQHA’s rules, along with Parrot Mouth and Cryptorchid conditions.​​​


To date, HYPP only has been traced to descendants of IMPRESSIVE, #0767246. Having negative (N/N) results on file may prevent a horse’s offspring from being tested. Foals born in 1998 and later and tracing to
IMPRESSIVE will have a statement placed on their Certificates of Registration that recommends testing for the condition unless test results indicating the foal is negative (N/N) are on file with AQHA. AQHA will test any foals who are required to be parentage verified and who trace to IMPRESSIVE for HYPP prior to them being registered. This testing
will be performed with the same DNA sample submitted to the laboratory for parentage verification.​


AQHA will accept HYPP test results only if performed
through a licensed laboratory. Beginning with the 2007 foals, all Impressive progeny are required to be parentage verified and HYPP tested subject to the conditions listed in rule 205. Any that test H/H will not be eligible for registration. Possible results of HYPP testing are N/N, N/H and H/H.​


HYPP is inherited as a dominant trait, which means a heterozygous (N/H) stallion or mare bred to a normal (N/N) horse will result in approximately half of the offspring being affected and half being normal. The rare homozygote (H/H) usually is severely affected with the disease and will pass the gene to its offspring 100 percent of the time.​


HYPP can be treated through diet and medication in most cases.​


AQHA Testing Kits can be ordered for $35. ​


_I did read somewhere that AQHA is coming up with yet another rule which will only allow one to register an N/H mare if she has been fixed and will not be bred. They also will only register N/H geldings and I'm not sure when this rule takes effect but I think when that happens folks will stop breeding when there is a potential to end up with an N/H foal because it won't be feasable for them._​


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## nuisance (Sep 8, 2011)

No I was NOT being obnoxious, sorry if you thought so. But, all this talk about HYPP, and it symptoms are tremors/muscle spasms, and my mare, who is very green, hasn't experienced anything outside a 20x20 pen for her first 4 yrs of life, gets tremors when she's frightened.... so, that makes me curious about HYPP.... but, she does not have the stud Impressive in her line, and they said all HYPP horses can be traced back to him. I really don't know how you thought that was obnoxious! Maybe you should read your reply to me! 

Guess, I'll stop asking questions now!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Can someone post a registration certificate where the horse has tested N/N and one for a horse who has tested N/H? Black out all the personal stuff, I'm only interested in looking at the HYPP statements and how they appear on the registration forms.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

nuisance said:


> No I was NOT being obnoxious, sorry if you thought so. But, all this talk about HYPP, and it symptoms are tremors/muscle spasms, and my mare, who is very green, hasn't experienced anything outside a 20x20 pen for her first 4 yrs of life, gets tremors when she's frightened.... so, that makes me curious about HYPP.... but, she does not have the stud Impressive in her line, and they said all HYPP horses can be traced back to him. I really don't know how you thought that was obnoxious! Maybe you should read your reply to me!
> 
> Guess, I'll stop asking questions now!


Truthfully I wasn't sure if you were making fun or if you were being serious. I've removed quite a few popcorn posts today and I geuss I'm testy. I apologize for that. As for my response, I think that is what you were asking, what the papers would show. If your horse has absolutely NO Impressive in its bloodlines then HYPP is not an issue for you but there are other things such as tying up syndrome (which I am not as familiar with but I think can be found in TB bloodlines). Or it could just be that she gets very nervous. My QH, who is NN does shake really bad when he's nervous.


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## nuisance (Sep 8, 2011)

I apologize for jumping back at you, but i have been out of the horse scene for 30 yrs (i'm 50) and this hypp thing wasn't an issue then, just want to make sure we're good at my place.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Can someone post a registration certificate where the horse has tested N/N and one for a horse who has tested N/H? Black out all the personal stuff, I'm only interested in looking at the HYPP statements and how they appear on the registration forms.


I was trying to find a stud that was born after 1998 that is N/H and I can pull the papers to get the verbage. I just need a name.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

nuisance said:


> correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm reading that to say, that if a horse born after 1998 has an ancestor with hypp it will be on the registration, so if my 2007 mare doesn't have anything on her registration, i'm to presume she's negative?
> 
> ETA: SHE HAS NO IMPRESSIVE IN HER BLOOD LINE, BUT SHE TREMBLES WHEN FRIGHTENED... BUT STOPS AS SOON AS SHE FEELS MORE SECURE...


Could just be nerves, or could be something like PSSM. This is also common in Quarter Horse lines, and can have similar symptoms. Talk to your vet if concerned.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

farmpony84 said:


> I was trying to find a stud that was born after 1998 that is N/H and I can pull the papers to get the verbage. I just need a name.


Here's a whole list of N/H stallions... http://www.bringinglighttohypp.org/AQHANHStuds1.pdf


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## nuisance (Sep 8, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> Could just be nerves, or could be something like PSSM. This is also common in Quarter Horse lines, and can have similar symptoms. Talk to your vet if concerned.


I'm thinking it's just nerves as she was abused before I got her. She sees a saddle blanket, she trembles all over, I slowly approach, and touch her with just the corner... she visibly relaxes and is fine after that.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

From a personal stand point, I would never breed a horse that is N/H. There is that chance (albeit not a huge one, but still a chance) that you will end up with a foal that is N/H. I just don't see the point. I'm sure your mare is gorgeous, is amazing in what she does, and has a temperament that you love. But why risk that chance when there are tons of lovely foals out there for dirt cheap that are N/N?


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

nuisance - Has your mare been tested for HYPP?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Ray MacDonald said:


> nuisance - Has your mare been tested for HYPP?


Her horse does not have any Impressive lines so no need to test. Some horses do just shake all over when they are nervous. It very well could just be nerves. Or it could be something.... hard to tell.....


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## nuisance (Sep 8, 2011)

Ray MacDonald said:


> nuisance - Has your mare been tested for HYPP?


Not to my knowledge, I just got her in July



farmpony84 said:


> Her horse does not have any Impressive lines so no need to test. Some horses do just shake all over when they are nervous. It very well could just be nerves. Or it could be something.... hard to tell.....


If I ever get her to load in the trailer, I will take her to the vet for a good check, and talk to him about it then.


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## barnmom66 (Jul 7, 2011)

Thank you FARMPONY84 for backing me here...wow..there are some people out there that need to do a lot more research on HYPP and feeding and caring for the HYPP N/H, N/N horse...I have done a lot of research on working, owning, living with an HYPP horse and the biggest part of that is the feed program. Potasium is a very risky thing for HYPP horses. If you are not aware of this, there are fantastic nutrionists out there (ie, Vern Avery, Brooks Feeds) that know their "stuff" regarding HYPP horses and diet. 

Getting to my original question "is there a HUS stud (quarter horse) out there that you would recommend to use that has not Impressive (HYPP) in the blood lines...yes there are still a lot of quarter horses out there that do not have Impressive in the blood line....

FARMPONY84, thank you again for posting the information regarding this being an open forum for information, not rude, uneducated comments.

For the writer that wants to know more information on HYPP, the link that FARMPONY84 put in for the AQHA link is fantastic information.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

You realize that the link that Farmpony posted just backs up what everyone else is saying, correct? From that link:

_If a horse is HYPP-positive, but is asymptomatic, does it lower the chances of its offspring being HYPP-positive? _

_No, the gene mutation is identical for those horses that are asymptomatic and those horses that require medication to control symptoms. The expression of clinical symptoms is quite variable, which is identical to what occurs in humans with HYPP and occurs with many other genetic diseases. Unfortunately, offspring of asymptomatic HYPP-positive horses have just as high a chance of inheriting the gene (50:50 chance) and just as high a chance of showing clinical symptoms as other offspring of HYPP-positive horses._

Your mare has HYPP. If you breed her to an N/N stud, there is a 50% chance the foal will have HYPP. If you breed her to an N/H stud, there is a 75% chance the foal will have HYPP. Those are facts.

Not to mention, there are plenty of Impressive-bred horses who do NOT have HYPP and are N/N, so I'm not sure why the bloodlines are relevant at all....

I have done the research and simply cannot condone perpetuating a genetic defect. There are absolutely no foolproof ways to prevent HYPP attacks in H/H or N/H horses. 



barnmom66 said:


> Thank you FARMPONY84 for backing me here...wow..there are some people out there that need to do a lot more research on HYPP and feeding and caring for the HYPP N/H, N/N horse...I have done a lot of research on working, owning, living with an HYPP horse and the biggest part of that is the feed program. Potasium is a very risky thing for HYPP horses. If you are not aware of this, there are fantastic nutrionists out there (ie, Vern Avery, Brooks Feeds) that know their "stuff" regarding HYPP horses and diet.
> 
> Getting to my original question "is there a HUS stud (quarter horse) out there that you would recommend to use that has not Impressive (HYPP) in the blood lines...yes there are still a lot of quarter horses out there that do not have Impressive in the blood line....
> 
> ...


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

nuisance said:


> Not to my knowledge, I just got her in July
> 
> 
> 
> If I ever get her to load in the trailer, I will take her to the vet for a good check, and talk to him about it then.


you just need a few pieces of mane. It's about a $40 test.


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## barnmom66 (Jul 7, 2011)

Forget it ...man did I waste my time on here...I am looking for a stud that does not have ANY Impressive in him at all...what part of that aren't you all understanding...


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

The part where it is a) not relevant to the HYPP discussion, b) you said you've be fine with an HYPP N/H stallion, which means both HYPP positive AND Impressive breeding, and c) it doesn't matter what you breed your mare to--you could cross her with an Arabian or a Tennessee Walker and you'd still have a 50% chance of a HYPP-afflicted foal. Methinks you're the one who needs to research the disease more thoroughly, as you don't seem to understand how it's inherited.


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## aspin231 (Mar 20, 2010)

barnmom66 said:


> Forget it ...man did I waste my time on here...I am looking for a stud that does not have ANY Impressive in him at all...what part of that aren't you all understanding...


Because of *your mare's* HYPP status, the potential foal still has the chance of contracting the disease, regardless of the stallion's HYPP status. What part aren't *you *understanding?!


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## barnmom66 (Jul 7, 2011)

Your comments on whether or not I should be even breeding this mare is not what I am looking for.  


Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeding/picking-hus-aqha-stud-breed-hypp-104598/#ixzz1f3jUWAGd

I guess there are some of you that missed this part of my post....

I am very well educated in the HYPP....once you loose a horse to it, you learn pretty dang fast to do lots of research....

Some of you need to remember the line..."if you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all."


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I'm being as nice as I can. Trying to prevent you loss and heartbreak by breeding a foal with a potentially fatal genetic disease. If I told you what I _really_ thought about your lack of conscientious breeding decisions and responsibility, I'd be banned from this forum.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

barnmom66 said:


> Some of you need to remember the line..."if you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all."


I rarely come into the breeding debates, but I only see people being concerned. Unfortunately life is not always "nice". More often it's not. I've seen the video of the mama horse with the attack with baby in stall. It was *ugly *and _*heartbreaking*_.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

britecheerio said:


> Yeah but if we were told correct breeding an N/N with a N/H still gives you high chances of getting H/H we just put a 3 year old palamino gelding down. We think someone gave him alfalfa as we have TONS of thoroughbreds. Also we were told best if keeping our colt a stallion to NEVER breed to a quarter horse just so that way their wasn't that risk... (idk how true it was)


You need to learn more about HyPP and genetics in general. You will NEVER get an H/H horse from an N/N to N/H crossing. If a horse does not carry HyPP then there is NO WAY for them to pass it regardless of breed or breeding.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

nuisance said:


> correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm reading that to say, that if a horse born after 1998 has an ancestor with hypp it will be on the registration, so if my 2007 mare doesn't have anything on her registration, i'm to presume she's negative?
> 
> ETA: SHE HAS NO IMPRESSIVE IN HER BLOOD LINE, BUT SHE TREMBLES WHEN FRIGHTENED... BUT STOPS AS SOON AS SHE FEELS MORE SECURE...


She has nothing on her papers b/c she his not related to Impressive. ONLY Impressive descendants will have anything on their papers regarding HyPP.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Can someone post a registration certificate where the horse has tested N/N and one for a horse who has tested N/H? Black out all the personal stuff, I'm only interested in looking at the HYPP statements and how they appear on the registration forms.


I would have to go and pull some of the reg papers out. Te my stallion would not have anything on his papers like they are doing now as he is a 1990 model. I have the paperwork from the lab used for his test back in late 90's when he was tested. All his get will have N/N on their papers as long as the same is N/N either through testing or b/c they have not Impressive on their pedigree.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

nuisance said:


> Not to my knowledge, I just got her in July
> 
> 
> 
> If I ever get her to load in the trailer, I will take her to the vet for a good check, and talk to him about it then.


The only way to know if a horse has HyPP is to pull hair and send it into a lab that test for HyPP. There are several that do it cost $50. You do not need a vet and there is no vet that can look at a horse and tell you if they are N/H or H/H or N/N with out having the horse tested.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

barnmom66 said:


> Thank you FARMPONY84 for backing me here...wow..there are some people out there that need to do a lot more research on HYPP and feeding and caring for the HYPP N/H, N/N horse...I have done a lot of research on working, owning, living with an HYPP horse and the biggest part of that is the feed program. Potasium is a very risky thing for HYPP horses. If you are not aware of this, there are fantastic nutrionists out there (ie, Vern Avery, Brooks Feeds) that know their "stuff" regarding HYPP horses and diet.
> 
> Getting to my original question "is there a HUS stud (quarter horse) out there that you would recommend to use that has not Impressive (HYPP) in the blood lines...yes there are still a lot of quarter horses out there that do not have Impressive in the blood line....
> 
> ...


Why are you ruling out Impressive bred horses who hare N/N?


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

The OP is uninterested in the potential health issues of a breeding. The OP came here for information well meaning responsible horse owners seem at loathe to provide, possibly due to ethical concerns. 
I'm sure there are less ethically concerned breeders who may be per$uaded to provide a stallion for breeding this mare. Isn't this situation why the weakness still exists in the gene pool? 

Honestly since the OP is so set on this... Might I suggest craigslist?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Keep in mind that while there are those who would not breed an N/H horse there are others who want it or do not mind it. I personally see a lot of worse breeding choices being made everyday. Ones that will result in the same end in most cases. There is so much that goes into breeding. My problem and lack of offering a stud for this mare has little to do with her being N/H and more to do with lack of any other info. Seems that everyone wants to jump on the fact that this mare is N/H and pays little attention to the fact that no other info is given.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

As far as I'm concerned, nothing else is relevant. Don't care if she's a backyard hack or a Congress champion.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

bubba13 said:


> As far as I'm concerned, nothing else is relevant. Don't care if she's a backyard hack or a Congress champion.


While it might to you it will not to others. Some put this on the list of things that have weight on if the horse is breeding quality or not. To me it is to much and I would not do it. However I am also not breeding halter horses. So while this would be a deal braker for most for others not so much.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> While it might to you it will not to others. Some put this on the list of things that have weight on if the horse is breeding quality or not. To me it is to much and I would not do it. However I am also not breeding halter horses. So while this would be a deal braker for most for others not so much.


I don't understand why someone would intentionally chance causing pain and suffering to another being for their own gain?

It's like those people who stick the 2 year olds on their green broke horse in the Dumbest Horse ads....I'm sure they know what they're doing too...right? And the decision can be defended, I'm sure, as the OP is defending her decision to pass on genes which negatively impact the animal and the gene pool.

...That doesn't make it right, or ethical. That's up to the OP, and the people who do things like stick babies on yearling horses to show how calm and awesomesauce they are.

I guess, for this and other things, if you're going to risk suffering, I just think it should be your own suffering that you're gambling on.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Not to mention, nrha, the OP is looking for a riding/show horse....not a halter horse.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

barnmom66 said:


> Your comments on whether or not I should be even breeding this mare is not what I am looking for.
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeding/picking-hus-aqha-stud-breed-hypp-104598/#ixzz1f3jUWAGd
> ...


 
OP-regardless of whether you want the comments or not, when someone posts something that can be seen as controversial on a public forum you will get them, every time.

I think you may have come to the wrong place here. We are not a group of enablers when it comes to what can be seen as questionable choices.

If you had looked at any of the previous breeding threads, you would have known that this would backfire on you. I would suggest perusing the QH journal. There you may find someone who is more interested in the $$ than the ethics and intelligence of breeding your mare. OR, look for a totally new horse. There sure are many out there.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Just to add to this, just because Impressive is not on the registration does not mean that he isn't there. Impressive was old enough to be the 4th horse in a pedigree and would not show on the registration. Additionally, it wasn't until more recently in his breeding that Impressive offspring needed to be tested for AQHA registration.

All that means now means is that you could possibly have HYPP in the line and not know it.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I have to agree with the folks advocating for NOT breeding this mare. Responsible breeding could iradicate this horrible condition. It is people, like the OP, wanting a baby from a particular mare who are keeping this condition on the books. I also find this irresponsible....sorry. 

Producing a foal is a gamble, at best, with totally healthy horses. You are never guaranteed good quality. To add an absolute risk of getting an HYPP foal, no matter WHAT stallion she breeds to is just not good breeding management, IMO. It is far better to buy a healthy attractive foal on the ground. Much cheaper, too!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

farmpony84 said:


> To the OP. It sounds like you are fairly ignorant regarding the disease itself. It's not really that surprising because unless you are heavily into the QH world, it's not as common information as the folks on this forum are making it out to be.


Um no.
Sorry.
But you are wrong.
Anyone who is even slightly involved in horses at all should know enough about HYPP to at least know what it is and how it affects horses.
Though it started out as a QH problem is has been a blight on the entire horse world. QHs crossed with all stock breed horses so now it affects them. Add that any horse you buy at an auction with out papers could very well be a culled H/H or N/H horse.
This is not a QH problem that only people who are intrenched in the QH world know about. It is a horse world problem.

I suppose if you breed purebred Arabians or the like you are free to walk around with your head in the sand about the HYPP issue. But I find it highly unlikely that anyone past a once a weeker up downer student who does not subscribe to a single horse magazine would not know about HYPP.



barnmom66 said:


> there are some people out there that need to do a lot more research on HYPP and feeding and caring for the HYPP N/H, N/N horse..





barnmom66 said:


> I am very well educated in the HYPP....


Really? Then why do you keep using N/N where I am guessing you mean H/H? A N/N horse does not need special feeding and care. A N/N horse should be what you are looking for in your stallion search, not what you exclude.



nrhareiner said:


> Why are you ruling out Impressive bred horses who hare N/N?


Because the OP keeps typing N/N where it looks like she wants H/H.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

AQHA would be a hugh help in this, Allison. If they refused to register any horse with N/H then that would go a long way to eradicate the condition.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Um no.
> Sorry.
> But you are wrong.
> Anyone who is even slightly involved in horses at all should know enough about HYPP to at least know what it is and how it affects horses.
> ...


Thanks SR. I had a grade horse, TB/Connemara, who had what appeared to be a seizure. What was the FIRST think mentioned? HYPP. And, even though he was supposedly NOT QH, my vets recommended testing. It certainly can be a factor because so many horses have some QH in them. My current guy is a PMU Qh X......certainly could be a question there, too.

I ride-I think one of the previous posts said that the AQHA was starting to take action?....somewhere <-- back there........:wink:


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

iridehorses said:


> AQHA would be a hugh help in this, Allison. If they refused to register any horse with N/H then that would go a long way to eradicate the condition.


I totally agree!

I was so upset with the ApHC when they added the maintenance drugs that most HYPP horses are on to the list of allowable drugs a horse can show on. To me that is just saying it is OK to breed HYPP horses.



franknbeans said:


> Thanks SR.


Not SR but I will take it as a compliment.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

:lol: Sorry Always. My bad.:wink:


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Um no.
> Sorry.
> But you are wrong.
> Anyone who is even slightly involved in horses at all should know enough about HYPP to at least know what it is and how it affects horses.
> ...


See. Now you done made me mad. I want to make a rotten statement like *head desk* or maybe call you a big meanie poopoo head? Luckily I know you well enough that I won't take your comment personally... But could I just throw one cup of soda at you? 

I wasn't saying people SHOULDN'T know about it. I'm saying they DON'T. Maybe in your area people are knowledgeable in it but going off the amount of threads we get on this forum alone and the types of comments that are posted. I feel confident that people don't know nearly enough about it.

One of my biggest complaints about these local hunt facilities in this are ais that they teach the kids how to look pretty on a horse and that's about it. They don't teach them feed and nutrition or health. I think part of why people take lessons, especially people that don't own, is so that they can learn enough to someday enter the horse world as an owner. I knew about "Impressive Syndrome" growing up and I knew that it caused temporarily paralysis. I didn't know how the horse got it or how to control it or what the causes were. And truthfully, if you walked up to random horse people, I'm not sure they could give good answers. Especially if they aren't going to breed. and many many many horse owners... arent' going to breed.

OK, I don't feel the need to throw a soda at you anymore but I might steal your lunch when you aren't looking....


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I agree with FP. I've never heard about HYPP, HERDA, LWO until I came to the forum. Granted I don't (and most probably will never) breed my horses, but still. 

Now yes, google is our friend, but the person should know at least the names to search on. Not everyone know. And while I'm not quite positive it's related to this particular situation, but in general educating the person (or at least trying to educate) in calm manner with the proves presented (not just blunt statements) is way more beneficial for everyone (the prospective breeding material including).


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

kitten_Val said:


> I agree with FP. I've never heard about HYPP, HERDA, LWO until I came to the forum. Granted I don't (and most probably will never) breed my horses, but still.


Understandable, but whose fault is that? If you haven't heard about it, you can't know about it. Hypp was identified in the mid 80's, over 25 years ago, and the test was perfected over 15 years ago. IMO the fault lies with the registries. In an ideal, non-greedy world, the registries should jump all over these things for the health of their breeds, and take whatever steps are necessary to eliminate, or at least attenuate, the genetic issues. This includes publicity, refusal to register carriers or let them compete in breed events, and education. They didn't. Anyone under the impression that registries have the horse's best interest in mind is living in a dream world - at least as far as AQHA, ApHC, JC, AHA, and AHPA goes.

There are lots of opinions, but there is one fact that cannot be argued...if no HYPP, HERDA, and SCID (and other genetic disease) carriers were bred, the diseases would be immediately eliminated - or at least until the next mutation of them came along, if ever. To be redundant with an earlier post, total elimination is difficult due to backyard breeders and breeding unregistered stock where the ancestry is not known, but there is NO EXCUSE for these diseases to exist in registered stock.

Registries and many horse owners are much like politicians - they place their own personal wants, desires, and greed above what is best for the horse...or country...


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## QOS (Dec 8, 2008)

I got back into the horse world 3 years ago and learned about HYPP/HERDA etc. When I got out of the horse world in the early 80's it had not been identified. Thanks to forums and Google I educated myself on it. 

Why would ANYONE breed horses with these conditions? I was at the vet this spring and there was a very strange looking mare there...I suspected HERDA and I had never seen it in person. Mare had a gorgeous foal.

I asked vet tech and yes...mare had HERDA. I asked my vet about why on earth would anybody breed that mare! He said the mare had some spectacular bloodlines/was daughter or granddaughter of a horse that I certainly had heard of and that her foals were high high dollar. Her HERDA wasn't that severe (looked horrible to me) and they carefully chose studs for her. She had had 5 foals none with HERDA. I still left shaking my head. I thought that was the most irresponsible baloney in the world. 

My own horse is Impressive bred but his sire is N/N or I wouldn't have bought him. It is a gelding so there is no breeding issues.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

farmpony84 said:


> OK, I don't feel the need to throw a soda at you anymore but I might steal your lunch when you aren't looking....


Feel free.... apple and yogurt. Not overly exciting at all. If you steal it I have an excuse to go down to the vending machine and buy some junk food instead. 


I do not expect every person out there to know every detail of HYPP. I just find it strange that most people who have any involvement (past what I described above) have not heard of it enough to know if it is something they need to research when it applies.

No, nothing wrong with people doing the start of their research in places like this. But to say that people do not know about it just seems far fetched. It comes up on a relatively regular basis in various horse magazines (or it did, I have not subscribed to a horse magazine in a couple of years past breed related membership magazines). I assume people actually read those things and not just look at the pretty pictures.


The OP of this thread, though, claims to know all about HYPP.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Faceman, I'm not arguing with this at all. IMHO horses with genetic disease(s) shouldn't be allowed to be registered or (depending on disease) participate in the events. Period. While I didn't face HYPP or HERDA horses, I've seen what LWO does (when several babies died in the BYB "facility" my paint came from). 

My point is that some people don't realize how bad those problems are or even don't know. Education is part of the process to get rid of the problem. While there are people who don't want to listen doesn't matter what, there are people who will listen and agree that breeding is a bad idea in such a situation. Even if 1 in 10 people intended to breed a horse with issues would listen and wouldn't breed one, I'd personally call it a success.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Faceman... I agree that the registries need to educate, which AQHA has put out multiple articles regarding HYPP and HERDA but the thing is... If you buy a registered horse but you show hunt or dressage or maybe don't even show at all, chances are you aren't a member of AQHA (only long enough to change the ownership on your papers) and you don't really follow it.

So the organization is limited to how many people it can inform.... Know what I mean?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

farmpony84 said:


> Faceman... I agree that the registries need to educate, which AQHA has put out multiple articles regarding HYPP and HERDA but the thing is... If you buy a registered horse but you show hunt or dressage or maybe don't even show at all, chances are you aren't a member of AQHA (only long enough to change the ownership on your papers) and you don't really follow it.
> 
> So the organization is limited to how many people it can inform.... Know what I mean?


You are right.

Guessing the word would get around VERY quickly if they no longer allowed horses with HYPP and HERDA to be registered.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Not sure why everyone is bashing the AQHA as the one that needs to inform people about HYPP... There are other registries that allow out crossing to AQHA that need to step up the plate and take some responsibility as well. 

At least the AQHA is marking the papers as to what their status is... the other registries aren't even doing that much...


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

NdAppy said:


> Not sure why everyone is bashing the AQHA as the one that needs to inform people about HYPP... There are other registries that allow out crossing to AQHA that need to step up the plate and take some responsibility as well.
> 
> At least the AQHA is marking the papers as to what their status is... the other registries aren't even doing that much...


Nobody is bashing AQHA. I have 2 Impressive bred horses. Both are HYPP/NN. We are having a discussion...


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Sure seems like considering all the fingers are being pointed continuously (and a lot by you farmpony) at the AQHA and only the AQHA.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

kitten_Val said:


> Faceman, I'm not arguing with this at all. IMHO horses with genetic disease(s) shouldn't be allowed to be registered or (depending on disease) participate in the events. Period. While I didn't face HYPP or HERDA horses, I've seen what LWO does (when several babies died in the BYB "facility" my paint came from).


I understand the not knowing - thus the first part of my post.

OLWS is a bit of a different animal. I'm not sure I have come to a definitive position on that. Unlike the others, to eliminate OLWS you would have to eliminate frame overos altogether - basically rendering them extinct. I'm not a Paint person, but I just can't justify in my mind eliminating an entire color/pattern - that would be very sad. As you and FP say, it is difficult, if not impossible to get the word out to everyone...as a P/R person for most of my life, I am well aware how difficult it is to design outreach to communicate information to all segments of the community.

I don't know what the answer is...if there were an easy answer, it would have been found by now. I am a conservative, so abhor government interference of any kind, however I would support a law or regulation for anyone seeking to breed to take some kind of education course, or at least be provided basic breeding education pamphlets, provided there were no fees (read that as taxes) or restrictions of any kind - I support the right of anyone to breed, regardless of how responsible or irresponsible they may be. There is no reason the registries could not fiscally support such a program as they have a vested interest, and the ones I have been exposed to are certainly not short of capital. Or perhaps the registries could provide educational materials along with the registration papers when they register or transfer the registration on each horse. Of course that doesn't reach owners of non-registered stock, but we have it within our means to eliminate these problems in registered stock. The problem is, all the registries have dragged their feet on these issues for fear of losing revenues from the big breeders. Without them on board, very little can be accomplished. While it is true AQHA, ApHC, and APHA have taken some initial steps, they have done so reluctantly and have been extremely tardy in the limited actions they have taken. The JC and AHA have done even worse - the JC turning its eyes completely from irresponsible breeding, and AHA going so far as to condone breeding SCID carriers, although to its credit AHA has done the best of the bunch as far as educating its members.

Or, perhaps there is another method of education that would be better...again, I don't have the answer. But it is insanity for us to keep perpetuating genetic disorders that can be eliminated. It just doesn't make sense, no matter which direction you are looking from.

Sorry for the book...


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

You can not put HERDA and OLW and HyPP in the same boat. They are very different. I personally would not breed a HyPP pos horse but I can see why others might want too. Not allowing N/H horses to be registered would only add to the glut of grade horses with HyPP and no one would know. What is worse. Not knowing or knowing and dealing with it?

At this point there is enough genetic diversity to not breed 99% of n/H horses. However there are perhaps a few that are worth breeding. You all make it sound like every single horse that is produced by a N/H horse is going to have HyPP. While again I personally would not want a HyPP horse I also do not really want Impressive in the pedigree of any of my horses and yes I own 2 Impressive bred horses and they are both great horses and would have anouther if I was not doing what I do. 

Again HyPP need to be weighted in the breeding process. I find it carries too much weight and there is little that will balance it out. However for others that will change.

As to HERDA again it has weight and it is added into the breeding equation. Since it is very very much different they HyPP to me it carries A LOT less weight when I am looking into breeding.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

^^ (Edit: post by FM  ) I don't think there is a clear answer, or plan on how to deal with the problem. PETA screaming about going after people and letting authorities to come to your property and do whatever is not an answer IMHO (I'd be the first against someone coming on my property (I'm paying for) and telling me what to do). Not registering, not letting to participate in events, and educating if not the breeders then at least buyers(!) would somewhat help. 

BTW, LWO gene doesn't make the carrier sick, I understand that. But that one is preventable by testing both parents. The problem though again how many people do the test. That place I mentioned had 3 babies die one by one in 2 weeks. And the owner only cared that he lost money he could make by selling them. Absolutely ridiculous!


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

nrhareiner said:


> As to HERDA again it has weight and it is added into the breeding equation. Since it is very very much different they HyPP to me it carries A LOT less weight when I am looking into breeding.


You and I agree on most things, but as you know we disagree on this issue, and have for many years.

It's OK to disagree, and I respect your opinion. However where you justify the use of breeding a HERDA carrier based upon its performance and your knowledge not to breed it to another carrier, I view things differently. As long as the playing field is level, competition is fair, and based upon the best horse, best, training, and best riding. If there were no HERDA carriers competing, the playing field would still be level. Same with HYPP and halter. Same with racing Thoroughbreds. Competition should be based upon equal footing and a level playing field - not upon whether a particular horse is bulked up or performs better due to a negative genetic issue that can be passed on.

If no HERDA carriers were permitted to compete, the competitive nature of the discipline would not be compromised - there would just be a particular class of horses eliminated. Same with halter - if HYPP H/H and N/H horses were not permitted to compete, the discipline would be just as competitive - moreso, actually. Same with Thoroughbreds. If the poorly bred horses with unsound feet, joints, and bones, were not permitted to compete, breeding practices would change but races would be just as exciting, albeit perhaps a couple tenths of a second slower.

Competition should be a judge of horse, trainer, and rider. The best horse trained the best and ridden the best, should win. If that horse has a genetic fault, it cannot by definition, at least in my opinion, be the best horse.

Just a different way of looking at things...


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

NdAppy said:


> Sure seems like considering all the fingers are being pointed continuously (and a lot by you farmpony) at the AQHA and only the AQHA.


Not really. You'll notice I posted the rule changes and the guidelines, plus I notated rules that were supposed to be coming into effect and I posted the link that AQHA provided educating people of HYPP.

I own 2 HYPP/NN horses. I ride and show in the AQHA circuit. I am a happy proud member of the AQHA. You are angering me with your accusations that I would point fingers at an association that I love. Read the posts again please.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

nrhareiner said:


> I personally would not breed a HyPP pos horse but I can see why others might want too.


Why others may want? Not a debate here, but I'm really curious what would be pros of doing it. Personally I'd be afraid to even own one, much less to breed one. Just too much of risk (plus watching those attacks even on video is simply hard for me). 

Whether you register or not the grade horse still may have it. You can't go around it really.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Some people specifically breed for HYPP positive horses. There's a belief that it leads to a more heavily-muscled animal, ideal for halter competition. There may actually be some truth to that--watch the videos posted on the first page. With HYPP attacks (and there may be far more frequent "subclinical" attacks that just aren't visible to the human eye), the muscles are frequently twitching, thus building mass.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bubba, yes, I've heard about it, but I couldn't find any scientific prove (or real research) while back when I decided to read a little about the issue that positive will make them look better. Oh, well, if that's the reason then you can't fix it I guess...


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

But again, there are plenty of bulky N/N horses. This guy is big enough, doncha think?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Not in one of the following quotes do you bring up _*any*_ registry but the AQHA. 

ETA - BTW these are the posts that come up under _your name_ when searching posters in this thread. So no, you have not even said a word about it being anyone else's responsibility besides the AQHA.



farmpony84 said:


> To the OP. It sounds like you are fairly ignorant regarding the disease itself. It's not really that surprising because unless you are heavily into the QH world, it's not as common information as the folks on this forum are making it out to be. Before I bred my mare who is HYPP/NN, I knew very little about the "Impressive Syndrome", which is the name I knew it by. I knew that it caused temporarily paralysis but not much more.
> 
> This is an older website but I feel it will be helpful to you: Index
> 
> ...





farmpony84 said:


> Are you being obnoxious with your last statement? I'm not sure I understand the meaning behind it.
> 
> If I remember right, this was the first rule change regarding HYPP:
> 
> ...





farmpony84 said:


> Truthfully I wasn't sure if you were making fun or if you were being serious. I've removed quite a few popcorn posts today and I geuss I'm testy. I apologize for that. As for my response, I think that is what you were asking, what the papers would show. If your horse has absolutely NO Impressive in its bloodlines then HYPP is not an issue for you but there are other things such as tying up syndrome (which I am not as familiar with but I think can be found in TB bloodlines). Or it could just be that she gets very nervous. My QH, who is NN does shake really bad when he's nervous.





farmpony84 said:


> I was trying to find a stud that was born after 1998 that is N/H and I can pull the papers to get the verbage. I just need a name.





farmpony84 said:


> Her horse does not have any Impressive lines so no need to test. Some horses do just shake all over when they are nervous. It very well could just be nerves. Or it could be something.... hard to tell.....





farmpony84 said:


> See. Now you done made me mad. I want to make a rotten statement like *head desk* or maybe call you a big meanie poopoo head? Luckily I know you well enough that I won't take your comment personally... But could I just throw one cup of soda at you?
> 
> I wasn't saying people SHOULDN'T know about it. I'm saying they DON'T. Maybe in your area people are knowledgeable in it but going off the amount of threads we get on this forum alone and the types of comments that are posted. I feel confident that people don't know nearly enough about it.
> 
> ...





farmpony84 said:


> Faceman... I agree that the registries need to educate, which AQHA has put out multiple articles regarding HYPP and HERDA but the thing is... If you buy a registered horse but you show hunt or dressage or maybe don't even show at all, chances are you aren't a member of AQHA (only long enough to change the ownership on your papers) and you don't really follow it.
> 
> So the organization is limited to how many people it can inform.... Know what I mean?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

NdAppy said:


> Not in one of the following quotes do you bring up _*any*_ registry but the AQHA.


and your point is? I was actually responding to questions about AQHA and what is listed on papers and what horses can be registered and what the papers show if the horse is a descendent of Impressive. I really think you should start reading at page one and continue on until you get to the end.

Not only that but read each of my posts. Nowhere do I say anything negative at all about the AQHA. You are looking for something that just isn't there.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Nice of you to assume that i haven't been following this thread. 

I have read all of your posts and all of the other posts. YOUR posts keep pointing fingers at the AQHA and the AQHA alone IMPO. Which is WRONG. At this point in the game with HYPP it isn't solely up to the AQHA. ApHC, APHA and any other registry that has AQHA blood mixed in is just as responsible to inform people about HYPP as they are to to take steps to eradicate this gentic disease.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

_*Folks, it's time to calm down. *_

Appy, I'd also bring either AQHA or APHA in the discussions, because I'm familiar with only those two (because that's what I own). I have no idea what other organizations are doing and what their rules are. 

When there is a N/H or H/H horse there is only ONE party responsible - the *breeder *who let it happened (the only exception is when someone's stud jumped all fences and came to visit the mare without informing the mare's owner). Doesn't matter what organization he/she is affiliated with.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Faceman said:


> You and I agree on most things, but as you know we disagree on this issue, and have for many years.
> 
> It's OK to disagree, and I respect your opinion. However where you justify the use of breeding a HERDA carrier based upon its performance and your knowledge not to breed it to another carrier, I view things differently. As long as the playing field is level, competition is fair, and based upon the best horse, best, training, and best riding. If there were no HERDA carriers competing, the playing field would still be level. Same with HYPP and halter. Same with racing Thoroughbreds. Competition should be based upon equal footing and a level playing field - not upon whether a particular horse is bulked up or performs better due to a negative genetic issue that can be passed on.
> 
> ...


The problem is at this point eliminating carriers would eliminate a lot of horses and severely limit the gene pool. I personally am not ready to cut off my nose to spite my face on this one. Would it limit the playing field and keep things level or would it set back the quality of animals 30 years? Again as long as the animal is not afflicted there is little harm to anything. Again this is one more thing that I look at when I am looking at a breeding animal. I gelded and sold a very nice well bred finished reiner b/c he was a carrier. As nice as he was he was not nice enough to breed with with being a HERDA carrier. However lets say one of my mares was a carrier. Not but lets say they are. They are very well bred very well proven mares so yes I would use them. I have little doubt that my Poco mare was a carrier. I would have little hesitation of using her again if it was possible. Her quality and that of her foals out way the chance that one of her foals might be a carrier. Again this is just one thing that would be added to the equation and one more thing I would have to look at when picking a stallion for the mare.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

NdAppy said:


> Nice of you to assume that i haven't been following this thread.
> 
> I have read all of your posts and all of the other posts. YOUR posts keep pointing fingers at the AQHA and the AQHA alone IMPO. Which is WRONG. At this point in the game with HYPP it isn't solely up to the AQHA. ApHC, APHA and any other registry that has AQHA blood mixed in is just as responsible to inform people about HYPP as they are to to take steps to eradicate this gentic disease.


You know what. I can't even respond to you anymore because of the close-minded though process that is going into your accusations. I've been discussing AQHA because Impressive is a registered AQHA and HYPP traces directly to him. AQHA is doing something about the issue. AQHA is making an effort to change the registration process, which in turn will effect ones efforts to breed horses that may be carriers of the gene.

Yes, many other breed associations are effected such as Palamino, Buckskin, Appaloosa, Paint, Arab, etc. I am not a member of those associations and I don't follow their registration rules, therefore I can not speak to them. Although I do recall reading somewhere that the Palomino association had some changes regarding HYPP.

Just because I am highlighting AQHA in this conversation beacause Impressive happened to be a registered Quarter horse does not mean I am pointing fingers. That is my issue with your comments. The phrase "pointing fingers" is a wrong. It's incorrect. It's not accurate. It's accusatory. It's irritating.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Perhaps some of the people here who belong to some of the other organizations could suggest to them (since they are members) that they should do some education. Just an idea. The AQHA does not function in a vacuum. They can only do what they do, and cannot control what the other registries do. Only the board and membership of THOSE REGISTRIES can control that. So, Nd APPY, if you are a member of one of them, perhaps you need to get involved and used your energies constructively. Just a thought. Attacking people here and picking apart their posts line by line does nothing to help the issue.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

kitten_Val said:


> Why others may want? Not a debate here, but I'm really curious what would be pros of doing it. Personally I'd be afraid to even own one, much less to breed one. Just too much of risk (plus watching those attacks even on video is simply hard for me).


I'm not sure there are any "pros" to it outside of halter. Part of the problem is aside from the bulk which has made H/H and N/H horses excel in halter, Impressive bred horses have an unbelievable performance record in many different disciplines. Impressive was a great horse and a great and prepotent stallion far beyond halter and the HYPP issue. So what we have is a bloodline that, other than HYPP, is very desireable in many disciplines. If Impressive had never had HYPP to begin with, the bloodline would still be one of the greatest modern QH bloodlines. With that in mind, there are such a large percentage of Impressive bred horses that are N/H, that many people simply don't care about the N/H as long as they get a great performing horse. No problem with that in and of itself, but the problem comes of course when those horses are bred.

Honestly, it is a shame the HYPP issue has been addressed so poorly. It has tainted a great bloodline when it didn't have to. If HYPP had been addressed properly upon discovery in 1985, which it of course was not, it would be a non issue today among registered stock, and we would have a great bloodline available without it being clouded. As you have seen examples of here, many people avoid Impressive lines even when they are N/N, which is a shame. That is no different than avoiding Zantanon/Poco Bueno lines because of HERDA if they are not carriers...


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Why others may want? Not a debate here, but I'm really curious what would be pros of doing it. Personally I'd be afraid to even own one, much less to breed one. Just too much of risk (plus watching those attacks even on video is simply hard for me).
> 
> Whether you register or not the grade horse still may have it. You can't go around it really.


I have a friend here locally who breeds halter horses. She has some very very nice ones that win at the highest level in the AQHA. They also do quite well under saddle. 

Anyway back when the rules changed and the thought back then that they would also not register N/H horses as they are still doing now she decided to breed her mares who where N/H and try and get a replacement for them that where of the same quality or better and also N/N. She did and she did end up with N/N replacements for most but not all. It was not that she wanted a N/H horse but being she had has many in the past and she had no problem properly caring for them it was not a huge issue in trying to get one that was not. Again is was not a money thing for her it was a quality thing. If she could have gotten the quality with out the HyPP she would have been very very happy. However it takes time to get the quality and eliminate the HyPP. Again for every positive there is also a negative one. So while it would be great to no longer have any genetic defects that is never going to happen. Every time you eliminate one there will be a mutation and you will get anouther.

Again it comes down to responsible breeding. Is the quality of the animal worth the risk of getting a carrier? That is what it must come down to. If you can get the exact same quality and diversity with out using a carrier then do so. However that in a lot of cases is going to be hard and will in the end cause more problems then what you are trying to eliminate.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

*snort* Farmpony, I am no where near being closed minded on this. I stand behind all my statements in regards to how your posts read. 

As to the reading comprehension... I think you need to o back and read my original post on the AQHA part. 

I wasn't specifically pointing to *YOU *in my original post. _You_ were the one who had the tantrum over me pointing out that AQHA isn't the only one to blame in the registries.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

franknbeans said:


> Perhaps some of the people here who belong to some of the other organizations could suggest to them (since they are members) that they should do some education. Just an idea. The AQHA does not function in a vacuum. They can only do what they do, and cannot control what the other registries do. Only the board and membership of THOSE REGISTRIES can control that. So, Nd APPY, if you are a member of one of them, perhaps you need to get involved and used your energies constructively. Just a thought. Attacking people here and picking apart their posts line by line does nothing to help the issue.


Easier said than done. The ApHC only cares about registrations/revenue, which they clearly demonstrate in all their registration policies. Many of us have fought with ApHC for many years on this and other registration issues. It is a brick wall...if there is a registration or buck in it, that is the direction ApHC goes. They have no interest whatsoever in the breed...in actual fact, their registration policies have virtually destroyed the breed. Please don't intimate that we Appy owners have not tried to effect change. Many of us have fought the hard battle for many years - just as many AQHA people have fought the battle with their registry...


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Faceman said:


> I'm not sure there are any "pros" to it outside of halter. Part of the problem is aside from the bulk which has made H/H and N/H horses excel in halter, Impressive bred horses have an unbelievable performance record in many different disciplines. Impressive was a great horse and a great and prepotent stallion far beyond halter and the HYPP issue. So what we have is a bloodline that, other than HYPP, is very desireable in many disciplines. If Impressive had never had HYPP to begin with, the bloodline would still be one of the greatest modern QH bloodlines. With that in mind, there are such a large percentage of Impressive bred horses that are N/H, that many people simply don't care about the N/H as long as they get a great performing horse. No problem with that in and of itself, but the problem comes of course when those horses are bred.
> 
> Honestly, it is a shame the HYPP issue has been addressed so poorly. It has tainted a great bloodline when it didn't have to. If HYPP had been addressed properly upon discovery in 1985, which it of course was not, it would be a non issue today among registered stock, and we would have a great bloodline available without it being clouded. As you have seen examples of here, many people avoid Impressive lines even when they are N/N, which is a shame. That is no different than avoiding Zantanon/Poco Bueno lines because of HERDA if they are not carriers...


You have hit on my point to all of this. Impressive is not only for halter. There are many great performance horses that trace to him. Now lest say AQHA did something back in the 80's although there was not a test until the 90's so it would have been hard to do so. Anyway. Lets say that even when the test came out and at that point there where no longer any N/H or H/H horses allowed to breed or be registered. What would have happen to that line? Even what would have happen to the AQHA as a whole? Yes you could argue that if they are not there there will be others come up that there is still a level playing field but what about all the great N/N horses that came from the N/H horses? They would not exist now and then where would you be?

Same with HERDA. Lets say we ( I use that as all inclusive we) knew about HERDA back 30 years ago or so. Lets say that Poco Lena was never allowed to breed b/c she was a carrier? Lets say that Doc O'Lena never existed then there would be no Smart Little Lena. Ok find but what about all the Doc O'Lena and Smart Little Lena get who are not carriers? They would not exist either. SO are we really doing a good thing or not?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

But you can keep the lines with out the disease. 
Like Face pointed out. There are lots of lovely Impressive horses out there that are N/N. 

There is just no reason to continue to breed horses with something this horrible. To win in the show ring is not enough of a reason if you ask me.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Faceman said:


> Easier said than done. The ApHC only cares about registrations/revenue, which they clearly demonstrate in all their registration policies. Many of us have fought with ApHC for many years on this and other registration issues. It is a brick wall...if there is a registration or buck in it, that is the direction ApHC goes. They have no interest whatsoever in the breed...in actual fact, their registration policies have virtually destroyed the breed. Please don't intimate that we Appy owners have not tried to effect change. Many of us have fought the hard battle for many years - just as many AQHA people have fought the battle with their registry...


 Your registry is just one of many. There are many registered breeds that approve and register QH crosses. Change has to start somewhere, and perhaps the ApHC would get the idea it its "peers" made changes.....that would increase the pressure a bit. I understand your frustration, but people have to keep this issue out in the open, IMO.

I guess ND Appy continues to waste good energy. **shrug**


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> I guess ND Appy continues to waste good energy. **shrug**


What exactly do you mean by "wasting good energy?"


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Poseidon said:


> What exactly do you mean by "wasting good energy?"


Please read my previous post where I suggest using energy constructively for change and education.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

franknbeans said:


> Perhaps some of the people here who belong to some of the other organizations could suggest to them (since they are members) that they should do some education. Just an idea. The AQHA does not function in a vacuum. They can only do what they do, and cannot control what the other registries do. Only the board and membership of THOSE REGISTRIES can control that.* So, Nd APPY, if you are a member of one of them, perhaps you need to get involved and used your energies constructively.* Just a thought. Attacking people here and picking apart their posts line by line does nothing to help the issue.


This one Poseidon. Previous page.:wink:


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I did read it, which is why I asked. More specifically, what do you believe would be a more productive use of this energy?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

What has been said about the ApHC is accurate. All they care about is the money. Not the horse. No amount of jumping up and down or logic is going to make them change their mind if it makes it so some of their big money (showing/breeding) clients might not like it.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Poseidon said:


> I did read it, which is why I asked. More specifically, what do you believe would be a more productive use of this energy?


Not sure how to be more clear. As I said-use the energy to work for change and education. It would seem to me a more productive use than to continue to pick apart Farmpony.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

And how do you know I am not already doing something along those lines? There people go assuming things about others again. 

I never stated I was or was not trying to educate people. Thanks for reading/putting things out there without knowing one way or the other and just assuming I was "attacking" somebody. 

If you read my first post on the subject _again_, I wasn't pointing fingers specifically at farmpony until farmpony had a tantrum over me pointing out that the AQHA isn't the only registry that needs to be discussed in regards to HYPP.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

If you are, you obviously have too much energy left over. JMHO. 

Fnb out.


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## caleybooth (Mar 11, 2011)

franknbeans said:


> Fnb out.


Tehe tehe. Just the immature child in me coming out. When we say FNB we don't mean franknbeans. And when I think of franknbeans I can't help but think about that stupid movie, There's Something About Mary, when the handicapped brother is running around yelling "Beans and franks! Beans and franks!" when Ben Stiller gets his junk caught in his zipper.

Sorry, just had a little gigglesnort session there.

Back to the matter at hand - THANK GOODNESS I'm a gaited person... :wink:


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Poseidon, I think you are looking for something that just isn't there. The point made was that if a person isn't happy with a situation then they need to make an attempt to change it. 

*************

I wasn't kicking my feet or throwing sand, but if you'd like to call my point a tantrum then so be it, but I must warn you... I feel I at least deserve a lollipop for my efforts.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I actually understood Po's questions. I did not get what Frank was trying to say until it was clarified.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

franknbeans said:


> Not sure how to be more clear. As I said-use the energy to work for change and education. It would seem to me a more productive use than to continue to pick apart Farmpony.


It has already been mentioned that many of us have fought and are still fighting the battle against ApHC. How involved have you been in YOUR registry? I have been involved in ApHC's poor registration policies since the early 80's when they caved in to the money breeders and changed to permitting outcrossing with Arabs, Quarterhorses, and Thoroughbreds instead of closing the stud books as they should have.

Please be reminded that discussing these kinds of issues in a public forum such as this is in itself a form of education and information dissemination. In earlier posts, you have seen people say they were only vaguely aware of HYPP until joining and participating in this forum. Many young people are probably not aware of the struggles all the registries have gone through over the years, whether AQHA's HYPP, HERDA, and color policies, or APHA's struggle to transition from a color registry to a "breed" registry, or ApHC's destruction of the Appaloosa, or AHA's monumental decision on SCID. There were no forums - no internet for that matter - to get information when I was young...they are an excellent venue to learn and to keep up with issues, and participating in discussions and debates on them is certainly not a waste of energy. I have certainly found them excellent vehicles over the years to present my opinions and further my agenda, as have others. Remember that for every reader of a forum that posts, there are scores, if not hundreds, of people that read but don't post. I rarely debate on a forum to try and sway another poster to my side - that is a prime example of a waste of time - the real target (and beneficiary) of our opinions and the information we pass on is the much larger universe of people that are readers rather than posters...they are the ones that are in the process of forming their opinions and the more information they have, the more informed opinions they will have.

Whew, I am a long winded old codger. The bottom line is discussing an issue here is no less important than discussing it with registry directors, and is not a waste of energy. Besides - it is cold where NDAppy lives, and she needs some way to keep warm...:hug:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Faceman said:


> ...I have been involved in ApHC's poor registration policies since the early 80's when they caved in to the money breeders and changed to permitting outcrossing with Arabs, Quarterhorses, and Thoroughbreds instead of closing the stud books as they should have...


OT, but...

I thought that prior to that time, the ApHC allowed outbreeding to MORE breeds:

"A significant crossbreeding influence used to revitalize the Appaloosa was the Arabian horse, as evidenced by early registration lists that show Arabian-Appaloosa crossbreeds as ten of the first fifteen horses registered with the ApHC. For example, one of Claude Thompson's major herd sires was Ferras, an Arabian stallion bred by W.K. Kellogg from horses imported from the Crabbet Arabian Stud of England. Ferras then sired Red Eagle, a prominent Appaloosa stallion, who was added to the Appaloosa Hall of Fame in 1988. Later, Thoroughbred and Quarter Horse lines were added, as well as crosses from other breeds, including Morgans and Standardbreds. In 1983 the ApHC reduced the number of allowable outcrosses to three main breeds: the Arabian horse, the American Quarter Horse and the Thoroughbred."

Appaloosa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How does reducing the number of outbreeds allowed constitute "changed to permitting outcrossing"?

If the guy credited with saving the Appy in the 1930s used a Crabbet Arabian stallion, then why is it wrong now?

BTW - I looked it up, and the horse mentioned in Wiki (Red Eagle, F209, born in 1946) has a great grandmother who was also in my purebred Arabian mare's lineage (Ferda). Not unexpected, really, since Mia comes from CMK lines.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

bsms said:


> OT, but...
> 
> I thought that prior to that time, the ApHC allowed outbreeding to MORE breeds:


They were. The decision to be made at the time, dictated by the fact that there was then more than a sufficient population of Appys, was whether to close the registry to all outcrossing or to leave it open to some. The decision, which was bitterly fought, was to leave it open to Arabs, Quarterhorses, and Thoroughbreds.

There was no logical reason for that decision - as I said, there was a sufficient population that the registry could have been closed. The decision that was made was made to insure the maximum number of registrations, generating the maximum revenue. ApHC basically bailed out of the breed business to follow their agenda, which was to become a major registry. They have accomplished that, but sadly at the expense of the breed. Only the dedication of hardline Appy X Appy breeders is keeping the actual breed going - in spite of ApHC's policies. ApHC doesn't know what an Appy is - they can and do register horses with no more than minimal Appy blood as Appys.

The origin of the Appy as you describe it is not relevant. All breeds have origins. Do you think the AQHA should permit outcrossing with all the horses, like mustangs for example, that went into their creation just because they were part of their development? How about Thoroughbreds? Should the JC permit outcrossing with Arabs and/or Arab-like horses that they arose from? How about Morgans? Haffies? Why try to justify outcrossing with Appys and not other breeds? If it is suitable for one, it is suitable for all, and if it is not suitable for one it is not suitable for all.

Appys are a substantially older breed than Quarterhorses, and there is, and has been, a large breeding population - there was no reason in the early 80's, and there is no reason now,m to permit outcrossing.

Perhaps you don't understand the rammifications of outcrossing. By permitting unrestricrted outcrossing with certain breeds, you end up with almost no Appy blood at all...

Take an ApHC registered Appy/QH cross, and cross it with another Quarterhorse. The resulting foal is only 25% Appy, yet is registered by ApHC. Now take that foal and cross it with a Quarterhorse, and the resulting foal is only 12.5% Appy, yet is registered by ApHC. Then another generation - 6.25% Appy - registered as an Appy by ApHC. Then another generation - 3.125% Appy...then another - 1.56 % Appy. 

Now, do you think a horse that is 1.5% Appy and 98.5% Quarterhorse is actually an Appy? You are a reasonable person, and I'm sure you don't. But ApHC does, and will register that horse as an Appy...


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

Faceman said:


> Now, do you think a horse that is 1.5% Appy and 98.5% Quarterhorse is actually an Appy? You are a reasonable person, and I'm sure you don't. But ApHC does, and will register that horse as an Appy...


:shock:
See...political bull$%^& doesn't just come from the "politicians".

Stuff like that makes no sense, *if* as you say, there was a sufficient population of individuals to maintain a viable genetic pool.

Unless there were other reasons for their decisions, which, sadly with most odd decisions tends to be money...whether directly, or through bowing to pressure with someone who has it, in order to get more of it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Faceman said:


> ...Now, do you think a horse that is 1.5% Appy and 98.5% Quarterhorse is actually an Appy? You are a reasonable person, and I'm sure you don't. But ApHC does, and will register that horse as an Appy...


As they would have done so in the 40s...with full approval of Claude Thompson.

But it is well off-topic, so we can save the discussion for a different thread. I do understand your argument, and also understand why there are other Appy registries.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

bsms said:


> As they would have done so in the 40s...with full approval of Claude Thompson.
> 
> But it is well off-topic, so we can save the discussion for a different thread. I do understand your argument, and also understand why there are other Appy registries.


True...we, er I, am a bit off topic, but let me just say this in summary...the 40's is not the 80's, nor is it 2011. By your exact same logic, it would be OK for AQHA to permit outcrossing to mustangs because it was done when the breed was formed. However, in both cases what happened in the formation (or in the Appy's case reformation) of the breed is not relevant. Once a breeding population is established, there is no need for outcrossing. If every registry did as ApHC, there would be no Arabs, no Morgans, no Paints, no Friesians, no Tennessee Walkers. There would only be one breed to select from - Quartethorses. Thank goodness most registries are proud of their breed and seek to preserve them...


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Faceman said:


> True...we, er I, am a bit off topic, but let me just say this in summary...the 40's is not the 80's, nor is it 2011. By your exact same logic, it would be OK for AQHA to permit outcrossing to mustangs because it was done when the breed was formed. However, in both cases what happened in the formation (or in the Appy's case reformation) of the breed is not relevant. Once a breeding population is established, there is no need for outcrossing. If every registry did as ApHC, there would be no Arabs, no Morgans, no Paints, no Friesians, no Tennessee Walkers. There would only be one breed to select from - Quartethorses. Thank goodness most registries are proud of their breed and seek to preserve them...


I love the old QH style appies. I remember back in the 90's they were heavily breeding to the TBs to get taller lankier horses. I formed the opinion (based on the few appy's that I knew at the time) that they were crazy. The ones I knew were pretty to look at and really tall but they were flighty and high strung. Then I met an older Appy that was actually mixed with arab that was my absolute dream horse. I begged my parents to buy him but they were big meanie heads and said no. I don't like the new TB looking QH's and I don't like the TB looking appys. I like the old style and wow... did I fall off the page on topics here or what? Sorry....


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

farmpony84 said:


> I love the old QH style appies. I remember back in the 90's they were heavily breeding to the TBs to get taller lankier horses. I formed the opinion (based on the few appy's that I knew at the time) that they were crazy. The ones I knew were pretty to look at and really tall but they were flighty and high strung. Then I met an older Appy that was actually mixed with arab that was my absolute dream horse. I begged my parents to buy him but they were big meanie heads and said no. I don't like the new TB looking QH's and I don't like the TB looking appys. I like the old style and wow... did I fall off the page on topics here or what? Sorry....


That's the thing...a lot of people like QH-styled Appys - one of the reasons ApHC has gone in the direction they have. But the reality is that the original Appys were not built like a Quarterhorse. They were light and rangey - designed for both endurance and performance, with an emphasis on endurance. Now when people began bringing horses west, a heavier conformation for work was also developed by introducing a draft influence, which you see in a lot of the thick necked, stocky foundation Appys. But in either case, the original Appy breed, at least here in North America, was distinctly NOT a stock horse type. They arose from Spanish stock, which accounted for their gaited shuffle, and their desert influence...by today's standards, they were most like an Arab/Appy cross, or Araloosa, which is what I raised for so many years. That is what the Appy breed is - or at least was. Why make it something it is not to be more popular? Would we want to make Haffies, for example, like Quarterhorses to make them more popular? Perhaps, but I prefer preserving breeds as they were originally intended. I like all the different breeds with their different abilities and different purposes, and would hate to see all horses the same...that would be like having only one kind of car or one breed of dog to choose from.

I'll stop now...I'm old, and you know how old people are - thread drift is the story of my life. Appys are close to my heart and it is hard not to get carried away. I raised them for 20 years, my father raised them, and his father before him - long before ApHC was ever thought of...


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