# New Headset



## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

As soon as I read the title 'head set' I cringed  

If you want to do Dressage with this horse, throw away the concept of a 'headset' and think more about him being a fish, and you are the net. You need to 'scoop' him up from behind to lighten his forehand, rather than trying to pull his head down into a false frame which may look 'pretty' to the uneducated eye, but you will get absolutely canned by any judge worth their salt. 

In the bottom photos, he is very much on the forehand and I can see that he is pulling through your reins. 
Get rid of the Dr Bristol - they are not Dressage legal - and put him in a french link. It is a similar bit, with the double joined mouth piece, but the 'dogbone' lies flat on the tongue rather than on an angle as the Dr Bristol does, making the french link a less severe bit - and a Dressage legal one at that. 

This is a photograph of my horse, warming up at a clinic. Notice the difference in his frame from your horse? 
His hind legs are pushing him forward, while his shoulders are starting to lighten and he is not running through my hands, but is lightly accepting a contact, with a soft back.










That is closer to what you want to aim for at this stage. Once he can work in a frame like that, you can start to bring him up, or ride him towards long and low. Once you bring the horse into a 'higher' more advanced frame, working towards collection, the joints will bend more all the way through the hind legs while they take more weight than the front legs. The front legs will then lighten even more, so that you will eventually be able to ride the ultimate in collected canters - the canter pirouette, where any excess weight on the front legs will impede you from being able to perform the movement. 

This is the same horse, starting to come a little more into collection, but being worked a little deep as a suppling exercise - he is a horse that naturally wants to be on is front legs, and be very strong in the hand as a result.









This work all comes from the hind legs. Getting the hind legs active, then you can start to get more bend through the horse's ribs, more suppleness through the neck, poll and jaw, swing over the back and then the horse will naturally come onto the bit. There is no pulling backwards or jiggling of the reins required, just consistent regular work, strengthening the hind legs and back until the horse can maintain that position while being soft in the hand and light in the shoulders. 
My horse is training elementary/medium level Dressage at present, and I am still working on strengthening those muscles. I do not expect him to hold collection for more than a couple of minutes at a time in training, and in the canter particularly, he is only just starting to soften his jaw and poll to me, while remaining balanced over his hind legs.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

Welp, bubble bursted.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I really like your horse and it sounds like you are starting on a journey of learning together. one step at a time.


Don't be upset by Kayty's comments. She is talking about your goal. She wants you to understand the really correct way to have your horse soft on the bit , without building in a different, but equally bad habit, from the giraffing that IMage used to do. Take heart. you are making changes, and it's a step that many, if not most, riders go through. until you know , you don't know.

It's not wrong to know how to encourage the hrose to bend to the bit. it's helpful, in a way. But if you have a horse that does this but then leans forward (see pic #3) an comes behind the vertical, then you are really teaching the horse to be on the forehand.

It's not black and white. read what she wrote and realize that this is what you will work toward , and that it doesn't happen overnight.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

I am not "pulling" his head down. He is still in training as it's only been a few months that we've been working on this so I keep low hands instead of any type of tie or bungy that creates a headset. I'm only doing dressage with him for fun, lower level. We can't push him too much through his hindquarters as he was born with a funny shaped coffin bone and it makes him stiff and my vet advised me not to. I was only sharing something that I've worked hard on and am proud of and was not looking for advice or for you to rain on my parade and make me feel like I don't know what I'm doing when I do =] I know that he looks too much on his forehand in that 3rd picture as I even stated something about it; hence he is still in training and has his moments.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

OP, I agree with Kayta has said. I'll add that I think your guy looked nicely flexed in the last photo (albeit not standing quite square and just a smidge behind the bit) - do you remember how he felt then and what you did just before coming to a halt?


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

JustImagine said:


> Welp, bubble bursted.


Take heart, the sooner you find this stuff out, the sooner you can get to work on getting him moving correctly!  I know a lot of dressage people with Arabians who get frustrated at the high head carriage, but I think you're best off forgetting the position of the head and concentrating on what the hindquarters, back and hocks are doing.

Great post *Kayty*, and I love how engaged he is in his back end and how soft (pretty much nonexistent) your contact is! Argh, I just love your horses, love your riding...move to Melbourne and be my instructor please? :lol:


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I'm not being mean, JustImagine, I promise! 
She certainly looks much happier in the recent photos - and it is great that you have her at that point rather than the first with her head in the air and a foul expression on her face. But now you have the chance to move up that extra step - in Dressage, and I suppose all other disciplines for that matter, it seems that every time you think you have climbed a mountain in your training, you look up and see that the mountain actually extends beyond the clouds. It is a continual process, you can never get to the very top of that mountain. Even at Grand Prix, there is SO much you can do to improve how the horse travels, improve its strength, its balance, the quality of the movements, the quality of paces and the freedom of the shoulders. It is never ending. 
There is not much time for celebration before you have to get moving again! 
I look back on the photos of my gelding, and think my god, how did I ever accept that as ok work? But then remember that each step is an improvement on the last. I have miles of work ahead of me, then a train ride, a flight, and a boat ride, then another set of miles beyond that, before I reach where I want to be. And when, or if, I get there, I'm sure that I won't be satisfied and will want to get even better and even more. 
It is the nature of the sport, and it is why I love it!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

JustImagine said:


> I am not "pulling" his head down. He is still in training as it's only been a few months that we've been working on this so I keep low hands instead of any type of tie or bungy that creates a headset. I'm only doing dressage with him for fun, lower level. We can't push him too much through his hindquarters as he was born with a funny shaped coffin bone and it makes him stiff and my vet advised me not to. I was only sharing something that I've worked hard on and am proud of and was not looking for advice or for you to rain on my parade and make me feel like I don't know what I'm doing when I do =] I know that he looks too much on his forehand in that 3rd picture as I even stated something about it; hence he is still in training and has his moments.


I did not say that you were pulling his head down - I said that HE is pulling through your hands. There is more weight in your hands than what their needs to be, because he is leaning on them. 
From your use of the word headset and other phrases, it sounds as though you are focused primarily on where his head is, rather than the rest of his body. And please don't get me wrong, this is a VERY common train of thought that the majority of riders have. Learning to step up and ride the hind legs is a big progression and it will open up many doors for you. 

If it is physically impossible for him to engage his hind legs and use his back I would be quite surprised. He should be able to maintain a basic level of engagement. He may not be able to work in collection, but he should be able to use his hind legs and swing his back, enough that you will both be much more comfortable under saddle.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

Thanks!


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Kudo's for retraining your horse without gadgets. While your horse does seem happier without the tie down, he is going the other way with his head and now coming too much onto his forehand. When you say you are keeping your hands low, it gives me a clue of how to help with your retraining. When you keep your hands low, you are putting pressure on his bars which is probably why your horse is pulling through the contact. I would also suggest switching to a french link. It's a nice, inviting bit. Most horses stretch into it with little encouragement. 

Please try this with your hands. Put your hands forward so they are two fingers in front of his withers, keeping a soft connection with his mouth. This position will feel more inviting to your horse than the lower hands. Keep them out there, being sure to keep your elbow soft and giving. Resist the temptation to lower your hands and put them back in your lap. Think of the more forward hand position of offering your horse more room to go forward. I'm telling you this as someone who has spent years riding around with my hands in the wrong spot. As soon as I found the proper contact spot, my horse instantly responded to the new inviting contact. 

Please don't be offended my Kayty's comments. She knows what she's talking about and offering her advice solely to be helpful. We're all here to learn more so we can do better for our horses.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

yes, yes. This going with the hands low to try to bring the horse low is very, very common. And doesn't work well.

great point about that, puck. and about having "inviting" hands.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

MyBoyPuck said:


> Kudo's for retraining your horse without gadgets. While your horse does seem happier without the tie down, he is going the other way with his head and now coming too much onto his forehand. When you say you are keeping your hands low, it gives me a clue of how to help with your retraining. When you keep your hands low, you are putting pressure on his bars which is probably why your horse is pulling through the contact. I would also suggest switching to a french link. It's a nice, inviting bit. Most horses stretch into it with little encouragement.
> 
> Please try this with your hands. Put your hands forward so they are two fingers in front of his withers, keeping a soft connection with his mouth. This position will feel more inviting to your horse than the lower hands. Keep them out there, being sure to keep your elbow soft and giving. Resist the temptation to lower your hands and put them back in your lap. Think of the more forward hand position of offering your horse more room to go forward. I'm telling you this as someone who has spent years riding around with my hands in the wrong spot. As soon as I found the proper contact spot, my horse instantly responded to the new inviting contact.
> 
> Please don't be offended my Kayty's comments. She knows what she's talking about and offering her advice solely to be helpful. We're all here to learn more so we can do better for our horses.


My entire life I rode like this - my hands more forward - my most recent lessons (I only get a few every now and then now that I'm broke) my instructors (various) have all been fussing about my hands! They tell me to keep my elbows more bent (they are but I have short arms and to put my hands more forward they're going to be more straight) and to put my hands LOW! Why is low hands becoming such a thing now? You're right - it doesn't work. Forward works better IMO. ETA: I am no dressage rider by any means though, so take me with a huge grain of salt xD


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Punks, I have short arms too - basically, you want your hands low and forward - to the limits of your physical build. 
I can't physically rest my hands in front of the wither unless I straighten my elbows, which defeats the purpose. So I maintain heavy elbows (think elbows glued to hips) and hands forward and giving which is generally at about wither level. 
High hands is not so good, a high hand is a punishing hand. The only time I bring my hand/s high is when my horse doesn't listen to my back. Then it's a quick 'Oi you, wake up!!!' and back to being just above the withers again.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Guess I should have quantified that arms thing with the fact that I do have long arms. I also have a horse with a long neck, so that works in our situation.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

This is usually a more appropriate frame for a horse with a short back and higher neck set like an Arabian. With my mare I found it was impossible for her to work without being heavily on the forehand unless she had her neck at a more appropriate level for her build. Most Arabs are not built like Quarter Horses. Also, realize that a horse cannot see in front of them when their nose is behind the vertical, so it can be dangerous i.e. horses can trip and do somersaults. 

Here is a humorous look at this:

The Equestrian Vagabond: Rollkur in Endurance


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

I highly regret posting this thread.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

I have a lot going on and just wanted to post something I was happy about for once; it would be nice if I was in the position to take critique, but I'm not, and that's exactly why I didn't ask for it. But apparently everyone has to throw their 2 cents in anyways. I spent months hating riding and thinking I was ruining my horse because I felt like I didn't know what I was doing, and now I feel that way again because as I said, I'm vulnerable and not in the position to take critique right now. Nobody is helping, you're all just making me feel like crap.
I also realize that he was too much on his forehand in the 3rd picture, and I made a comment about that. But I guess everyone has to make a comment about that picture anyways; when he dips that low, I bump him back up. He doesn't trip or stumble, and his gaits are so much smoother now and more balanced. I know I still have so much work to do with him, and the only reason I posted this was because I was happy for over coming such a huge obstacle with him. I KNOW I still have a lot of work to do, but I don't need to hear about it. I just want to be happy riding again.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Justimagine, if you dont want people to comment then dont put it in the horse training section, we have a section here for people to post pictures its called "horse pictures" and no one is allowed to comment unless they see somehting dangerous.

BTW I agree with Kayty. 
This is my lad 9 weeks after he was first sat on, he has an incredibly short back (I can only get a 17" saddle on him tops and he is 15hh, my 15hh arab could take a bigger saddle then him) short backs do not stop them working through (nor apparently do fractured pelvis' which this lad had at this time unknown to us)









When you say you bump him back up, how are you doing this? with your leg or your hand?


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

Then one of the mods should delete the thread =] Problem solved.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Dear JustImagine, everyone has been nothing but helpful here, and the comments they made can be very valuable to others - heck, they were very valuable to me, as I'm going through the exact training phase with my boy! But an overall good section for any further pictures with no critique or advice required is Horse Pictures . 

And I know the exact feeling when you make a baby-step accomplishment with your horse - it's just so great to finally achieve something and to be able to look back at your progress and smile, isn't it? Congrats on that! I bet you will get far with your horse, as you clearly care for him and are determined to do all the training that is necessary. Maybe one day you will come back to this thread and the valuable advice of others will come to great use - between us, I'd snatch Kayty as my personal trainer any day!


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## LynnF (Jun 1, 2011)

Congrats on getting him this far! Comparing the first picture to the more recent ones he looks like he has come a long way! Its always nice to know that we have made improvement. Keep learning and growing and working with him and you will do great! Have fun and enjoy the little victories!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

JustImagine, don't be upset. I can see from the before and after photo's that you have posted on this thread and in another (can't remember the thread) that you have come miles in a short time. 

Headset is surprisingly (in my opinion) one of the most difficult things to achieve. It's easy to make a horse appear to be moving correctly without actually doing it. I know from experience and I promise you, fixing errors early is WAY better than fixing them later. 

after years of incorrect movement we are now headed in the right direction. 

On these forums you get so many opinions, the important thing is to be able to weed through and take what you can use. 

I am not going to blow sunshine up your butt because I'm certain that is not what you want to hear. I think you are moving in the right direction but I agree with Kayty and think that's good advice to follow.

Keep it up!


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I wanted to add - as someone with not much recent formal training I've loved reading threads like this, it's awfully enlightening 
It didn't sound to me like anyone was judging you JustImagine - I think they all agree you're doing well and just want to help you guide your path to get even better! I think the problem starts with the title 'head set' - there are several threads going on all the time about people asking how to fix their horse's head set or what tools will fix there headset. So many of the posters on here hear that phrase and get really frustrated - not with you in particular, just the amount of people focused on the wrong end of the horse.

It looks like you're doing a great job, just take the critique as educational, not judgmental and you'll see lots of great advice in there!


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## Annanoel (Mar 29, 2011)

JustImagine - I agree with others here as well, no one was trying to jump on your back or anything like that. It's easy on a forum to think that, but we're not. Everyone is just giving you pointers and advice, that IS what this forum is about. When you post a thread, you are ultimatley asking for advice whether you realize it or not. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, as are you. You can't just run away from a thread or have it deleted when you don't hear what you want to. 

I do agree things are looking better with you and your boy, just keep it up and take the constructive criticisim. Don't take it the wrong way, let it help you become a better rider. Nothing to be discouraged about!


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I think the Op's horse is cute as a button (why are buttons cute?).
He could be my mare's brother. 
I bought my mare when she was 9 & only barely green broke, had only been ridden indoors in a lunging sized circle with her head tied up & down- in one place only.

When I removed all the junk she had her head everywhere. I 'ruined' her work ethic by taking her on trails, which she loves & listens very well on.
On the trails she keeps her head where it should be & has lots of drive behind. 
Now she can find no reason to like riding indoors but in Wisconsin, in winter, it's a must.

She did the same thing as your guy, head too high then too low. Almost like she over tried. I was pretty happy too to see the try. I work with mainly Arabs & the ones that need restarting always seem to go through this phase. It doesn't last long as they do seem to figure out it's more work. 

Don't get discouraged, to me he's following the Arabian retraining play book.

I like him. Ride the butt, ride the butt became my chant.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Kayty said:


> I'm not being mean, JustImagine, I promise!
> ......................................................
> I'm sure that I won't be satisfied and will want to get even better and even more.
> It is the nature of the sport, and it is why I love it!


THIS IS IMPORTANT, we all want to be better, and it is very hard to stop and just enjoy the moment. 

If you post that you had a moment of joy, then people will get it, but they will also not be able to stop from giving you advice on how to find that feeling again and again, because there are a lot of passionate people here.



JustImagine said:


> I have a lot going on and just wanted to post something I was happy about for once; it would be nice if I was in the position to take critique, but I'm not, and that's exactly why I didn't ask for it. But apparently everyone has to throw their 2 cents in anyways. I spent months hating riding and thinking I was ruining my horse because I felt like I didn't know what I was doing, and now I feel that way again because as I said, I'm vulnerable and not in the position to take critique right now. Nobody is helping, you're all just making me feel like crap.
> I also realize that he was too much on his forehand in the 3rd picture, and I made a comment about that. But I guess everyone has to make a comment about that picture anyways; when he dips that low, I bump him back up. He doesn't trip or stumble, and his gaits are so much smoother now and more balanced. I know I still have so much work to do with him, and the only reason I posted this was because I was happy for over coming such a huge obstacle with him. I KNOW I still have a lot of work to do, but I don't need to hear about it. I just want to be happy riding again.


If you are not in a position to take critique, I'm sorry but maybe you shouldn't be riding right now, because it is a continual feedback loop. 

You ride, but your horse critiques your ride constantly, and if you can't read that feedback yourself then you need others to help you. 

I can sit here and say pretty horse, and I mean it, but I can't help but offer that he will look even prettier when he is working properly.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

natisha said:


> I like him. Ride the butt, ride the butt became my chant.


With some Arabs I think it may work to throw down a whole bunch of random ground poles all over the place, ride the butt, and let them discover that looking where they are going is a bonus:lol:


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> With some Arabs I think it may work to throw down a whole bunch of random ground poles all over the place, ride the butt, and let them discover that looking where they are going is a bonus:lol:


You are very correct. I accidentally figured that out with her when my friend had stuff all over & my mare was very happy. Before that it was more like: 'Round & around & around we go, where she'll spook nobody knows.

She never spooked outside but in an empty arena...hang on.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

natisha, if it makes you feel better, my Arabian mare feels free to spook anywhere. In fact, she ALWAYS does her "OMG Crouch" once within the first 100 yards down the street...at a place she can see from her corral. I've concluded she is just warming up for her athletics during the rest of the ride. We've also done the Neverending Bolt in the arena: 2 hours of "If you try to dismount, I'll leap an invisible 3 foot fence and run away". Ended up trying her head all the way to one side and wrapping the rein around the horn, then jumping off. I was on the ground before she could get straightened out. Hopefully, we're past that stage...

For the OP: Mia and I are at the 4.5 year mark. Some of us have to measure our progress in very small steps. Mine seem a lot smaller than anyone elses...:-x


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

I don't mind critique...just not loads of it. I am the queen of baby steps, and when I have all of that thrown at me at once it frustrates me (which is why I have a trainer who understands that). I would be more willing to take so much critique had I posted a video so that people would be able to actually see Image in action, or anything except the 2 pixelated and blurry cell phone pictures. I just feel like it's hard to judge him off of that, but that's just my opinion. I wasn't trying to be rude, it's just a lot to have thrown at me when I wasn't expecting THAT much critique, and some of it I don't agree with, just because I know my horse better than that which isn't a bad thing. I suppose I just don't want to take the wrong advice and so something to mess him up when we've gotten this far.
Natisha, I've very much learning to ride the butt, haha. Having done hunters/jumpers to 6 years I have a very forward seat; it's weird re-training him AND myself.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

JustImage, I've already told you that I have not meant offence in the slightest. If you are so sensitive that you cannot even take any advice (which by the way, has cost me upwards of $20,000.00 in professional lessons with professional riders and trainers to obtain - I know I love getting more ideas from more experienced riders from myself - FOR FREE!!), then I'd be re-evaluating your desire to be a competitive rider. We cannot be sensitive and full of self importance if we want to be a good rider - it does take guts, and the ability to put aside your emotions and just get on with it. 
I have been told over the years by riders who compete at Grand Prix Dressage Internationally with success, that I am doing it all wrong, to change this, that and the other. I've been chased down the arena being hit with a lunge whip, I've been screamed at to put my leg on and keep my seat until I was blue in the face and actually fainted when I finally got off. 
It's bloody hard!!!!! So when I see a post in the training forum, or Dressage/Riding etc. forums, I DO put my 2 cents in when I know what I'm talking about and can see where I can help. 
Yes, you only put a couple of pixilated photo's up - hence I did not give you a full critique. If I'd critiqued you, I could have picked apart every last joint in your body and your horses - as I would do with anyone asking for critique - because I know it will help them in the long run. I hate getting rainbows and butterflies myself, it teaches me absolutely nothing. 
I took the time to sit down, and type out an in depth response that detailed the next step that you're training could take, following the system of the German Training Scale. If you want to debate the 'correctness' of such a system, be my guest. As I said earlier, if I was getting so much free information from someone so willing to assist me in creating a more correct, willing and easier to ride horse, then I'd be pulling up a pew, getting out my note book and pen, and picking their brains!!
You can NEVER have too many tools in your toolbox, so you may get advice from someone that may not work for your current horse, but will work later down the track. I have lessons with a number of different local coaches as well as clinicians, and each lesson I have, I video it, watch it multiple times, take notes, memorise those notes and work out which 'tools' work for that horse, and which I could use on another. 
Having ridden and trained that many horses that I've lost count, I feel that I do have some reasonable information to pass on, and will not apologise for your sensitivity. Post your pretty photo's in the Photographs section - you will get plenty of 'Your pony looks so pretty and amazing' comments in there if that is what you are seeking. Otherwise, try to step back, take a deep breath, quit feeling so offended that someone actually took time out of their day to help you, and memorise that information for a rainy day. Because you never know, my information might actually be of use to you one day.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

I'm not seeking everyone to tell me I'm perfect, but I'm glad everyone keeps judging me like that when I've stated before that I'm not. Posting comments that I'm too sensitive and don't know how to take critique and that I'm dumb enough to post in the wrong forum section aren't helping. I'm just sick of explaining myself and getting dumped on. I've also stated that I don't ride competitively and just for fun, so no, I won't re-evaluate my desire to be a competitive rider because I not once said that I wanted to be =] But I guess you missed when I wrote that.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

You mentioned in your first post that you would like to do Dressage with your horse - I gave you advice based on that. 
I will be sure to avoid your posts from now on. Thanks for the warning!


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

Sounds good, thanks!


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

First off..I don't normally like Arabs, but Image is just adorable. 

Now..as for the tips and (very little actual) critique you're getting..Lighten up.
You said yourself that you find it demeaning and frustrating; you're sensitive to it. No one is trying to be demeaning or hurt your feelings, they're giving you tips on how to move on to the next step, which we all do just about every ride. My mare is always better at atleast one thing each ride because we work on it the previous ride.

I take as many tips and techniques as I can and see how they work out. You can do almost anything to a horse and fix it relatively quickly if it didn't work like you wanted it to. If you're worried about something someone suggests as being wrong, wait a few minutes and someone on here will most likely refute and argue/fix the comment/tip. And generally (especially on here, I've seen)if someon refutes a comment, they have experience or knowledge to back it up.

I'm a sensitive person (especially lately for some odd reason..), but I will -always- listen to another equestrian, even if I know what they are saying is wrong for the specific horse, I might be able to use it for the next 10 horses I'm working with/training.

Also, Kayty, don't worry, your time wasn't wasted, it'll help me and ST once we have an arena to start doing actual work, work in with a snaffle. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

Thank you =] I know no one is trying to be rude or demeaning (for the most part), I was just overwhelmed. It was my fault for posting this in particular section, and my fault for not stating in my OP that I don't want tons of critique. But it is very frustrating to me when I DO state that, that people continue on anyways. It's not that I don't want to critique, I just don't want overwhelming amounts of it. No person is ever the same, nor is the horse and I just don't run around assuming that, so I don't get why people can't understand that I'm not the same as them? It's like I can't comment on what I'm thinking because everyone just ignores it anyways.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

This thread has been very informative to me. It's amazing how much goes into getting the proper headset (or perhaps a better term would be "proper frame?"). 

Kayty, I'd love it if you'd hop on over to my thread and give your opinion... 

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/crappy-cell-phone-pics-but-what-152631/#post1881816 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

It's good you've come to this point!

Right now, this is what I'm kind of working on my mare with. Getting her to move forward with her head down.

I don't like headsets. Like with their head perpendicular to the ground. Her "headset" is just a little above her withers.
So I know how you're feeling! Good job He'll get there!

I believe you said he puts his head like that, behind the bit (over-collected in the head) When he gets behind the bit, drive him forward into it, his head will come up, but just follow him. Then he'll relax and be even better!

Not a critique, just a tip I've been working with my mare alone, and so many people on here have helped!
Good luck and have fun! He's a cutie


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

JustImagine said:


> I have a lot going on and just wanted to post something I was happy about for once; it would be nice if I was in the position to take critique, but I'm not, and that's exactly why I didn't ask for it. But apparently everyone has to throw their 2 cents in anyways. I spent months hating riding and thinking I was ruining my horse because I felt like I didn't know what I was doing, and now I feel that way again because as I said, I'm vulnerable and not in the position to take critique right now. Nobody is helping, you're all just making me feel like crap.
> I also realize that he was too much on his forehand in the 3rd picture, and I made a comment about that. But I guess everyone has to make a comment about that picture anyways; when he dips that low, I bump him back up. He doesn't trip or stumble, and his gaits are so much smoother now and more balanced. I know I still have so much work to do with him, and the only reason I posted this was because I was happy for over coming such a huge obstacle with him. I KNOW I still have a lot of work to do, but I don't need to hear about it. I just want to be happy riding again.


 
I'd like to apologize for making a critique so blythely, without thinking whether you wanted it or not. It was not asked for , and I assumed too much. I really didnt' give enough thought to that. So sorry.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

JI, it is far far easier to reschool a horse that star gazes then to reschool a horse that has learnt to duck behind the verticle and not use its ****. You can tell a lot even from photos of the halt if you know what you are looking at.

Kayty - Please please please will you come over to GB and ive me a lesson (or 5!!!!). I too have been chased round an arena by an instructor, heck I had one instructor who believed that if I could stand upright after I got off then I hadnt been working hard enough!! I regularly got off and my knees would buckle. I've been screamed at, i've been torn apart and it has all made me a better rider.

Tiny, i have no idea why you feel the need to appologise? No one was rude, no one told her she was crap just that she could do better and how to do that.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

JustImagine said:


> Thank you =] I know no one is trying to be rude or demeaning (for the most part), I was just overwhelmed. It was my fault for posting this in particular section, and my fault for not stating in my OP that I don't want tons of critique. But it is very frustrating to me when I DO state that, that people continue on anyways. It's not that I don't want to critique, I just don't want overwhelming amounts of it. No person is ever the same, nor is the horse and I just don't run around assuming that, so I don't get why people can't understand that I'm not the same as them? It's like I can't comment on what I'm thinking because everyone just ignores it anyways.


I don't want to be rude or overwhelming. So if your up to it at some point, I can share my experience with you and hopefully save you a ton of trouble and headaches  I think you've done a good job getting your horse to relax and soften up. But I might be able to share something that will change your mind about this thread. Or at least the direction it has gone. If not, then that's fine. I can keep it to myself  But I have been where you are in your training with your horse, and would like to try and help you if you want it


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

But, big deal, goodness gracious. OP didn't realize she was going to get the amount of responce (critique or tips) that she did and is overwhelmed..Have you never been overwhelmed with things similar when younger?

Now, no, I don't think the OP stated what she thought in the perfect words, but since you know she's a child, why not give her benefit of doubt that she didn't know?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

Army wife said:


> I don't want to be rude or overwhelming. So if your up to it at some point, I can share my experience with you and hopefully save you a ton of trouble and headaches  I think you've done a good job getting your horse to relax and soften up. But I might be able to share something that will change your mind about this thread. Or at least the direction it has gone. If not, then that's fine. I can keep it to myself  But I have been where you are in your training with your horse, and would like to try and help you if you want it


Thank you, I would love that =]


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

Tiny, thank you, but no need to apologize =]


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Ok, when I was young I started my mare myself. She's a Quarab, and she naturally took on the arab "headset." I basically taught my mare the EXACT same thing your teaching your gelding. Except when I was younger, I didn't have horseforum, lessons, a trainer, and I definitely didn't have someone with years and years of wisdom running me around an arena until I passed out. Now looking back, I would have killed for that! In the last couple of years, I've started riding with some really talented people. I started picking their brains and watching them. I realized I was doing it all wrong. That collection and the proper body use truly does start at the hind end and go forward from there. I TOTALLY get what your saying about re-training yourself. That's exactly what I'm doing and it's really really tough!! But, now I have the added difficulty of re-training my horse, whom I've ridden this way for 8 years. Sure, she can fake it well to the untrained eye...but now I know why certain things were harder for her, because she wasn't using herself correctly. I had taught my horse to cheat. I didn't get the concept of lifting shoulders, dropping hindquarters based on feel. For some reason, that's one thing I had a super hard time grasping. So my "trainer" put me on her Friesian stallion to show me. He's a very talented dressage horse, and I know only a little about dressage. But I guess the way that breed is built uphill, REALLY exaggerated the feel for me. And now I get it! I get really frustrated with myself because i do have good feel and timing on other things, but this is one that I never knew. And now I basically have to start over in this area :/ You can't teach something you don't know. (Not saying you do or not, idk.) But if you don't, see if your trainer can show you on a more seasoned horse.

So I say that to say this. What you have done with your gelding is awesome! But, you should seriously consider taking the advice given to you here. I am! Some of these ppl really know their crap. And if my shred of experience can save you the time that I wasted, then I will be so happy! Don't do what I did. Strive to be a better horsewoman for the sake of your horse. And unfortunately that does include criticism at times. But as long as it's directed toward your betterment, then take it!! Sure hope this helps. I don't want you to feel down or anything at all like that!!! I just thought I'd share my mistakes and the lessons I've learned the hard way!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Right, Army wife. That is also why I offered advice, because I was hoping to save someone all the effort that I went through for nothing with my Arab. I started her out at an Arab show barn and took lessons there. We used running martingales and forced my mare who naturally has her neck tied in quite high to carry her neck down like a QH. This dumped her heavily on the forehand, and the musculature in her neck developed all wrong. We showed and placed, as stupid judges rewarded our efforts.

I affectionately called my horse "noodle neck" because I could never get it muscled up and she had a dip in front of her withers.

Several years later I started taking dressage lessons. Needless to say, I could not get this horse off her forehand. She would tuck down and avoid the bit, and could drive on quite nicely without taking up any real contact. It was only when I stopped working on her "head set" that her neck developed properly and she began driving off her hind end. It turns out she is not uncoordinated like I thought she was, as long as she can see where she is going and isn't pulling herself along with her front legs.

It would have been nice if someone had told me how to get my horse using her body properly in the first place and saved me the hours of lunging with side reins and drilling.


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## Wolfetrap (Jan 7, 2013)

HOLY HORSE FORUM THREAD!!!!!!! Very interesting to see everyone's opinion!!! KAYTY PLEASE BE MY TRAINER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I loved everything you posted!!!!! It gave me the "I want to go ride my horse now" excited feeling!!! And your horse is gorgeous!!


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

JustImagine, I was in the same place as you a few years ago when I bought my first Thoroughbred.

She was bought off the track and retrained by a very knowledgable trainer and sold shortly thereafter as a broodmare, though the new owner decided to ride her and really screwed this mare up. After that, she was shuffled from home to home off the track; moving on to someone else every time she became too much for the previous owner. When I finally bought her (12 yr old girl + 6 yr old TB mare = trouble...), she was a complete wreck. I was able to track down her first trainer, who was astonished with how messed up she was, and she agreed to take her back for a month of training. This mare would move off of the slightest shift in your core and spring into a lovely, balanced canter just by thinking "canter". However, after several owners and a lot of bad training, she took every cue to mean "run". I watched her bolt around the arena when her previous owner asked for a canter....and I still bought her. 

The month of training put Molly on the right track again, but she still had serious rushing issues I had to work on with her. As a result, I started worrying about riding her head. If I could tickle my reins and bring her head down, I found that she would slow down and listen to me somewhat. However, I was not riding her correctly from back to front, and I allowed her hind legs to drag behind her and her back to hollow, so long as her head was on the vertical.

I can't tell you how much work it has taken to correct this. Not only was I trying to help a frantic, over-thinking mare slow down and find a rhythm, but at the same time, I had to give her even more energy and push her forward into the bridle with my seat throughout the retraining process. She has come a long way since then, but I still take dressage lessons on her whenever I can to improve her way of going.

Moral of the story? Never set the head. Drive the hind legs up into the bridle with your seat until the back lifts and the horse works correctly. The proper head carriage will come naturally with a balanced, forward-moving horse.

You've received a lot of fantastic advice from people with years of experience. Critique can be hard to take, but it's necessary to improve. No one wants to see you spend years retraining a horse that's learned to duck behind the vertical. We're all watching out for your best interest here.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Kayty I think your advice was fabulous! When I get the courage to I might post a pic or two and ask you to rip me to shreds. I say this looking at my avatar and laugh seeing my horse on the forehand lol. 

I LOVE the lessons where I am stripped down to the point of tears and built back up. I walk away from it feeling like I have actually learned something and made progress. I believe it makes you a better rider. Its great being told everything you are doing right. But I want to know what I am doing wrong. You can't make progress without knowing what you are doing wrong.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

*quietly prints Kaytys post and sits with a highlighter for things to apply to her own Arab*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

DancingArabian said:


> *quietly prints Kaytys post and sits with a highlighter for things to apply to her own Arab*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My horse isn't an arab but she is scared of her own shadow... seriously... we were working on stride lengthening the other day, she farted and leaped 10 feet in the air and took off like she was in the Kentucky Derby :shock:


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Army wife said:


> Ok, when I was young I started my mare myself. She's a Quarab, and she naturally took on the arab "headset." I basically taught my mare the EXACT same thing your teaching your gelding. Except when I was younger, I didn't have horseforum, lessons, a trainer, and I definitely didn't have someone with years and years of wisdom running me around an arena until I passed out.


I think so many of us who don't have trainers or any outside knowledge make the same mistakes. 

When I started training my mare, I knew nothing about collection. So, naturally, I DID IT ALL WRONG.
And she's coming 5 now, and she's starting to figure it out, after I had to work my butt off to fix everything I screwed up. Not knowing what to do and just thinking trial and error will work is not a good idea with collection. Especially if you're always thinking about "headset" instead of collection.

I wish I would have had someone around to tell me what to do, but where I live, that isn't something that's available to me. 

I admit I screwed up royally, but I worked my butt off to fix it. And now, my mare will willingly travel like this:









OP, we just don't want you to have to go through all of the frustration that many of us have gone through.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

QHriderKE said:


> I wish I would have had someone around to tell me what to do, but where I live, that isn't something that's available to me.


Whats that? You want me to come give you lessons since Squiggy is Bratty mares twin :lol:


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

It's hard to do what you're doing!!! We all understand that and have been there. I've been where you have numerous time (same headset & everything), and I did EXACTLY what you've done. I WAS SO PROUD OF MYSELF!!!!

...until I went to a show thinking I had finally got it. *HUGE *wakeup call when the judge pulled me aside. His exact words "you won because I didn't have anything else from the other riders. Regardless, your equitation was the best I've ever seen, your horse is a very good example of what others should work for in condition, stride, flexibility. BUT if I EVER catch you riding behind the vertical like that whether I'm judging or not, I will chew you a new one." How's that for a kick to the teeth.

That has stayed with me, and I admit at times I catch myself forcing behind the vertical, then I remember what he said.

Point being, as hard as it was to take, whether I was ready for the critism or not it made a huge impact on my riding, and I'm better for it.

(Kayty's description of what do was very easy to follow and should help you a lot, as well as some other tips here. Oh, and Kayty, don't get a big head cause of all the drooling on this thread over you:rofl::rofl: JK)


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

NBEventer said:


> Whats that? You want me to come give you lessons since Squiggy is Bratty mares twin :lol:


Shhhhhhhhh. Squiggy is being kind of good lately. I also got her raspberry leaves ordered, so they might help her problems.


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

NBEventer said:


> My horse isn't an arab but she is scared of her own shadow... seriously... we were working on stride lengthening the other day, she farted and leaped 10 feet in the air and took off like she was in the Kentucky Derby :shock:


Haha, I actually love it when they do that. Cracks me up EVERY time:lol:


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

busysmurf said:


> Haha, I actually love it when they do that. Cracks me up EVERY time:lol:


Yea its funny the first 1000 times... around 1001 it gets to be old :evil:

This is the same horse that while cantering in the indoor arena kicks the dirt up a bit, it hits the wall, she goes flying. Or car doors... horses snorting... water buckets being played with... people sneezing... why I haven't let my coach put the ear plugs in her yet I don't know. On a bright note... spring is around the corner. Nasty Brat is a hot weather horse so just a few more months until her brain is back from vacation.


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

^^ you mean thaws


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

busysmurf said:


> ^^ you mean thaws


Hmm... nah thawing would mean its still there to some degree. It is completely gone on vacation for the winter. There is no hope of it returning until summer comes.

Why I still love this horse, one will never know. But alas after 14 years of her games I just go with the flow. What is funny is the fact that her green broke daughter is beginner proof. Meanwhile she is a snarly brat that everyone in the barn is scared to ride *sigh*


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

my apology is based on the fact that the OP did not ASK for a critique, and as I was the first person to throw one out there (I think), then I set the tone that then invited everyone else to critique. It's as simple as that.
Whether what I said was right or wrong in its' content is not part of that apology, only that I mistakenly jumped to the conclusion that the OP wanted feedback, which she has voiciferously told us she does NOT want.


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

voiciferously

that's a new one...


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

busysmurf said:


> voiciferously
> 
> that's a new one...


I so want to steal that word... I love it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

thanks. I know, I tend to be a bit of a vocabulary snob.


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

I just looked it up. It has a picture of my kids!!!!!!


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

I was going to add my two-cents, but Kayty did a wonderful, kind job of explaining and demonstrating things  My first thought (too) was "Oh NO! HEADSET? :::cringe:::" haha... I was also going to say that your horse looks like it is working more willingly in the most recent pictures, but again - is clearly pulling on you as opposed to accepting the bit. You'll get there, though! 

Kayty's pictures really demonstrate an ideal lightness of contact between rider's hands and horse's mouth - her horse is not straining on the bit like your's appears to be. I look forward to seeing what you can accomplish with this horse in the future - please, ask your trainer about "collection" as opposed to "head set"... if you're trainer can't point you in the right direction, then perhaps you should seek someone who is credentialed or accomplished with Dressage. Even if you plan to work at a lower level, proper dressage training will only help you and your horse, and will translate nicely to any discipline you choose in the future. 

Even if you weren't asking for a critique, I think she did a really nice demonstration for you 

P.S. If he has a problem with the cannon bone, why were you considering hunter/jumper with him/her? Or, is that why you chose to focus on flatwork instead?


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

This is an interesting thread to me, because my horse (quarter-Arab) has similar problems, and I think your Arab's progress is terrific!

ALL the instructors I've had with her say it's okay, at this time, that the head's too low, even when I point out she's on the forehand. "Just push her out a little more," they'd say. Because while in this "incorrect" position her back is learning to stretch, not an easy thing for this type of horse. 

I once had a lesson with a substitute horse, as my horse was lame. I rode a First Level (about) Hannoverian mare. I told the instructor what I was working at with my own horse; but this horse was so different, my home problems just didn't exist. You can't start horses all the same way.

When my horse occasionally goes behind the bit, I raise my hands. Why? Because I watched Buck Brannerman school a horse like that once, and I often try out different methods, and in this case, with my horse, the action was pretty gentle (on the lips instead of against the bars of her mouth) and for some reason my horse understood it meant her head was too low. Strangely, it lets her know when her head is too high, too.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

The more and more horse people I meet, I realize that there are two camps. Those who want to ride right, and those who want to ride easy. When the former attempt to help the latter, the result is a thread like this, because the latter always think the former are mean and the former usually thing that the latter should just buy a **** bicycle if they want to just sit there and do nothing.

Our horses are not machines. We cannot set parts of their bodies and expect them to stay that way. Nor can we jerk or pull or see saw or kick and otherwise brutalize the horse into correctness.

*I think it is WRONG to expect certain well respected members posting on this thread to apologize to an OP who is expecting to use above described methods to ride her horse.* As an equine community, no matter how LOUD someone is, it does not, ever, make them right and we cannot blindly accept what people are doing to their horses simply because they whine and complain. The behaviors of some people on this thread appall me and have caused me to lose a great deal of respect for them.

There is right and there is wrong, and no amount of whining and complaining will change that. As was stated originally, if the OP wishes to be told how wonderful and pretty her horse is, there is a "pictures" forum for a reason. It was not wrong of anyone to assume that because this thread exists in the "training" forum that the OP wanted input into her training, for that is why the training forum exists! 

And that's my nickel for the day.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

My trainer used to tell me, 'Either do it *right*, or get off the damned horse and take up knitting! I don't need to be wasting my time and your money if you don't want to learn to ride_ properly_.'

Sorry you got more than you bargained for, OP. Now you know to post pictures in the Pictures section if you just want people telling you how purty your horse is, and that you two must have a fantastical bond. He _is_ very cute. I've always been a sucker for Ayrabs. :wink:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> The more and more horse people I meet, I realize that there are two camps. Those who want to ride right, and those who want to ride easy. When the former attempt to help the latter, the result is a thread like this, because the latter always think the former are mean and the former usually thing that the latter should just buy a **** bicycle if they want to just sit there and do nothing.
> 
> Our horses are not machines. We cannot set parts of their bodies and expect them to stay that way. Nor can we jerk or pull or see saw or kick and otherwise brutalize the horse into correctness.
> 
> ...


There is no expectation of apology. It's always voluntary.

I would never want to offer any kind of advice or critique, however inadequate (spell?) my advice might be, if it were not wanted. Unless a person asks, they really aren't interested or ready for learning.

And, yes, some of the behaviors of people on these threads are questionable.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I have read through this thread a couple times and believe the OP has worked very hard to achieve a goal and really felt good about where she is. 

I do believe that anytime a member sees something that they feel is in need of correcting that they should most definitely feel welcome to offer advice, point out flaws, errors, dangers etc. But I believe tact should be considered.

In this case I can totally see where the OP had some hurt feelings. This was somewhat as a brag post. She's worked hard and she has come far. Are their holes? Yes. Has she met her goal? No. Is she coming along? Yes. Is she "screwing up" along the way? Of course. Who doesn't? 

If folks would read the thread in it's entirety, they would see where the OP did come back and actually thank people for the advice she was given. 

I'm posting a mod note in this thread now.

Feel free to offer advice in the training section but do it with respect and without attitude. Do not include any popcorn posts.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Speed Racer said:


> My trainer used to tell me, 'Either do it *right*, or get off the damned horse and take up knitting! I don't need to be wasting my time and your money if you don't want to learn to ride_ properly_.'
> 
> Sorry you got more than you bargained for, OP. Now you know to post pictures in the Pictures section if you just want people telling you how purty your horse is, and that you two must have a fantastical bond. He _is_ very cute. I've always been a sucker for Ayrabs. :wink:


My jumping coach expects nothing but perfection. If you show up to a lesson wearing jeans and half chaps you can go home. If you show up wearing a tank top and dirty breeches. You can go home. 

When teaching if she is explaining something and we are standing in the middle of the arena you better have your feet in your stirrups, your reins in your hands and sitting up straight. The same if someone else is doing the exercise while we watch. If she catches you slouching or your feet out of your stirrups you can get off and go home. 

She also hates repeating herself, excuses and "I can't do this". If you are going to ride you are **** well riding. No ifs ands or buts. And you better not talk unless spoken to.

I _love_ my jumping coach. She will shred you to pieces and put you back together. She is one of the best in the world, which is why I only get to do a handful of lessons a year from her in clinic settings. The funny thing is, she actually feels really bad if she makes someone cry lol.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

I was happy with the advice I was given last night and this morning, and would like to continue to receive it but I'm not going to pick the comments of people saying that I treat my horse like a machine (anebel) when you don't know me. I just find it funny that everyone thinks their so perfect that their feelings never get in the way, and no one ever makes mistakes. I screwed up, I admitted it, yet people won't stop commenting about it.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

JustImagine said:


> I was happy with the advice I was given last night and this morning, and would like to continue to receive it but I'm not going to pick the comments of people saying that I treat my horse like a machine (anebel) when you don't know me. I just find it funny that everyone thinks their so perfect that their feelings never get in the way, and no one ever makes mistakes. I screwed up, I admitted it, yet people won't stop commenting about it.


I understand your frustration. I truly honestly do. You are obviously young and there is nothing wrong with that.

You have had a huge breakthrough with your horse. The fact that hes not running around with his head in the rafters anymore is a big deal. Now you can work on fine tuning and making it more correct.

Please don't take the comments to heart. I promise most of them are meant in your best interest, and being the internet it is hard to read "tone". I am sure to you it feels way worse then it actually is.

Take a step back, take a deep breath. Maybe walk away from the thread for a few days and come back, read the advice and consider it. I have students that are your age and I can picture your reaction very clearly as I see it in my students. At your age you don't like the harsh criticism, it comes off as being very harsh to you. It sounds like your coach is doing a great job working with you and understanding you and what you can take and can't take. In 5 years time this will not seem nearly as hard as it feels to you right now.

Chin up, don't be sorry you made the thread. Take it as a learning experience ;-)


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

This thread has been very informative to me. 

THIS is why threads aren't deleted - because OTHERS can read through and learn.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

Army wife said:


> Ok, when I was young I started my mare myself. She's a Quarab, and she naturally took on the arab "headset." I basically taught my mare the EXACT same thing your teaching your gelding. Except when I was younger, I didn't have horseforum, lessons, a trainer, and I definitely didn't have someone with years and years of wisdom running me around an arena until I passed out. Now looking back, I would have killed for that! In the last couple of years, I've started riding with some really talented people. I started picking their brains and watching them. I realized I was doing it all wrong. That collection and the proper body use truly does start at the hind end and go forward from there. I TOTALLY get what your saying about re-training yourself. That's exactly what I'm doing and it's really really tough!! But, now I have the added difficulty of re-training my horse, whom I've ridden this way for 8 years. Sure, she can fake it well to the untrained eye...but now I know why certain things were harder for her, because she wasn't using herself correctly. I had taught my horse to cheat. I didn't get the concept of lifting shoulders, dropping hindquarters based on feel. For some reason, that's one thing I had a super hard time grasping. So my "trainer" put me on her Friesian stallion to show me. He's a very talented dressage horse, and I know only a little about dressage. But I guess the way that breed is built uphill, REALLY exaggerated the feel for me. And now I get it! I get really frustrated with myself because i do have good feel and timing on other things, but this is one that I never knew. And now I basically have to start over in this area :/ You can't teach something you don't know. (Not saying you do or not, idk.) But if you don't, see if your trainer can show you on a more seasoned horse.
> 
> So I say that to say this. What you have done with your gelding is awesome! But, you should seriously consider taking the advice given to you here. I am! Some of these ppl really know their crap. And if my shred of experience can save you the time that I wasted, then I will be so happy! Don't do what I did. Strive to be a better horsewoman for the sake of your horse. And unfortunately that does include criticism at times. But as long as it's directed toward your betterment, then take it!! Sure hope this helps. I don't want you to feel down or anything at all like that!!! I just thought I'd share my mistakes and the lessons I've learned the hard way!


Image was kind of a backyard horse for me when I boarded him at my mom's, and I would ship him to jumping lessons once a week then flat him at home. We did this for a few months before I learned that I really couldn't control him; so I did a couple lessons with my mom's trainer and she is the one who took me back to square one: walking. Just trying to get him to accept the bit and not be scared of it anymore. It was the greatest day when Image actually opened his mouth and TOOK the bit when I was tacking him up one day; I love the feeling of him not being scared anymore. My trainer and I were teaching him to use his hindquarters and after a month he went lame; that's when my vet x-rayed him and noticed his funny coffin bone. He's perfectly sound now and we can get him to use his hindquarters just not as much, so we're trying to get him to be light on his forehand and arch his back more (which I can feel when he does). I do let him get away with being on his forehand more and stretching down, but then I bump him back to me. I'm going back and re-reading these posts now; when he stretches down like that I lightly roll my fingers to bring him up a bit; I'm trying to work on consistency with him because he's all over the place with his head at the moment and now part of it is me not being consistent with my contact and leg , so I'm just trying my best to hold my hands the same except when I bounce him back to me. And thank you very much for sharing this with me =] It does help a lot.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Question for Kayty....

I can sit back, I THINK as deep as you are in that first picture at the western jog and lope, but when I go into the English post I feel as though I'm tipping forward. Now, I know in higher level dressage there isn't really posting but how would you keep from tipping forward while posting? (AQHA is not tipped forward as hunt riders).


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

farmpony84 said:


> Question for Kayty....
> 
> I can sit back, I THINK as deep as you are in that first picture at the western jog and lope, but when I go into the English post I feel as though I'm tipping forward. Now, I know in higher level dressage there isn't really posting but how would you keep from tipping forward while posting? (AQHA is not tipped forward as hunt riders).


I'm not Kayty but I will try. I suspect a lot of it is going from a western saddle, which is meant to be a deep seat sitting back, to a close contact saddle which is meant to tip you forward for jumping. 

You need to almost think about pulling yourself back too far. Then instead of rising you should just be rolling your hips forward and back. A common mistake in English riders is thinking rising trot actually means rising. It is more of a rolling motion. Your hips should slightly move forward and back while you think of a straight line from your head, shoulder, elbow, hip, heel. 

When I have students who tend to tip themselves forward I tell them to think of over correcting it. To the point if you feel like you are to far back, you are more then likely at the right positioning. 

When I used to show AQHA I had a hard time doing the transition from western classes to english classes. A western saddle is made to make you sit back and deep, where as the close contact saddles will naturally tip you forward.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

busysmurf said:


> It's hard to do what you're doing!!! We all understand that and have been there. I've been where you have numerous time (same headset & everything), and I did EXACTLY what you've done. I WAS SO PROUD OF MYSELF!!!!
> 
> ...until I went to a show thinking I had finally got it. *HUGE *wakeup call when the judge pulled me aside. His exact words "you won because I didn't have anything else from the other riders. Regardless, your equitation was the best I've ever seen, your horse is a very good example of what others should work for in condition, stride, flexibility. BUT if I EVER catch you riding behind the vertical like that whether I'm judging or not, I will chew you a new one." How's that for a kick to the teeth.
> 
> ...


What do you mean by riding behind the vertical; sorry, I've never heard of this before :?


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> my apology is based on the fact that the OP did not ASK for a critique, and as I was the first person to throw one out there (I think), then I set the tone that then invited everyone else to critique. It's as simple as that.
> Whether what I said was right or wrong in its' content is not part of that apology, only that I mistakenly jumped to the conclusion that the OP wanted feedback, which she has voiciferously told us she does NOT want.


I feel really bad and it really was my fault for not clearly stating my intentions. I'm new this forum and I'm still learning.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

sillyhorses said:


> I was going to add my two-cents, but Kayty did a wonderful, kind job of explaining and demonstrating things  My first thought (too) was "Oh NO! HEADSET? :::cringe:::" haha... I was also going to say that your horse looks like it is working more willingly in the most recent pictures, but again - is clearly pulling on you as opposed to accepting the bit. You'll get there, though!
> 
> Kayty's pictures really demonstrate an ideal lightness of contact between rider's hands and horse's mouth - her horse is not straining on the bit like your's appears to be. I look forward to seeing what you can accomplish with this horse in the future - please, ask your trainer about "collection" as opposed to "head set"... if you're trainer can't point you in the right direction, then perhaps you should seek someone who is credentialed or accomplished with Dressage. Even if you plan to work at a lower level, proper dressage training will only help you and your horse, and will translate nicely to any discipline you choose in the future.
> 
> ...


Thank you =] And his cannon bone deformation is why I chose flatwork instead. I had no idea about it when I was jumping him. As much as I love jumping, I love Image more and I'd rather have a happy, healthy, pain-free horse to spend the rest of his days with me.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

Beling said:


> This is an interesting thread to me, because my horse (quarter-Arab) has similar problems, and I think your Arab's progress is terrific!
> 
> ALL the instructors I've had with her say it's okay, at this time, that the head's too low, even when I point out she's on the forehand. "Just push her out a little more," they'd say. Because while in this "incorrect" position her back is learning to stretch, not an easy thing for this type of horse.
> 
> ...


Aww, thank you! This has been very helpful. When Image gets too much on his forehand, my trainer tells me to squeeze lightly with my calves and roll my fingers to bump him up. And I know exactly what you mean by raising your hands; when we were first working on him accepting the bit, I was keeping my hands low to teach him that it's okay to have his head down without it hurting him (because of where he had his head tied down with a nasty bit). But now I can lift my hands slightly to bring him up without him getting scared of the contact and jamming his head up =]


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

NBEventer said:


> I'm not Kayty but I will try. I suspect a lot of it is going from a western saddle, which is meant to be a deep seat sitting back, to a close contact saddle which is meant to tip you forward for jumping.
> 
> You need to almost think about pulling yourself back too far. Then instead of rising you should just be rolling your hips forward and back. A common mistake in English riders is thinking rising trot actually means rising. It is more of a rolling motion. Your hips should slightly move forward and back while you think of a straight line from your head, shoulder, elbow, hip, heel.
> 
> ...


I'm thinking maybe I should actually ride in my English saddle more than just on show day too huh? My canter work I can get deep but that rising trot is hard on me.... I will give this a shot. What do you think of the brace thing that I see people wearing that helps keep their shoulders back?


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

farmpony84 said:


> What do you think of the brace thing that I see people wearing that helps keep their shoulders back?


Not to get off topic, but if you decide to get one of those, I'll sell you mine for a discount. I bought it and never ended up using it.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

My old trainer used to stick a crop through my arms behind my back to keep my shoulders back when I got too slouchy ;]


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

farmpony84 said:


> I'm thinking maybe I should actually ride in my saddle more than just on show day too huh? My canter work I can get deep but that rising trot is hard on me.... I will give this a shot. What do you think of the brace thing that I see people wearing that helps keep their shoulders back?


Haha yes you need more miles in your english saddle. I personally don't like the shoulder brace thing as I find it makes people hallow out in their back. Its similar to when my old coach used to stick a crop in the crook of students elbows behind their back. It pulled their shoulders back but hallowed them out. In theory its great, in practice not so great lol.

You need to really think about that string from the top of your helmet down to your cantle. And just think of rolling your hips forward to rise trot. I find a lot of my students standing in their stirrups to rise the trot which tips them forward. I will take my students stirrups away and have them practice rising trot stirrupless. It helps them get that roll vs the rise. So you sit tall and back and rock your hips forward to a slight rise.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I do the rolling motion but I've actually gotten in trouble (by old trainers) for not rising enough when doing it, like my post isn't enough I guess. My new trainer hasn't yelled at me but when I ride with her we are focusing mostly on getting my horse to move properly because my past trainer helped me to achieve a very forehand heavy broken loped lame horse...

I don't sound bitter do I? I'm not... not at her... I'm angry at myself for not seeing how far off track we were heading...


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

farmpony84 said:


> I do the rolling motion but I've actually gotten in trouble (by old trainers) for not rising enough when doing it, like my post isn't enough I guess. My new trainer hasn't yelled at me but when I ride with her we are focusing mostly on getting my horse to move properly because my past trainer helped me to achieve a very forehand heavy broken loped lame horse...
> 
> I don't sound bitter do I? I'm not... not at her... I'm angry at myself for not seeing how far off track we were heading...


Understandable. I've gone through that before. I had a trainer who had me trained to get my horse in a "headseat" I was to seesaw the reins and "bump" and if the head was down that is all I needed.

My horse looked like he was built upside down after years with her. I moved to a new trainer and it was a long battle to learn how to use my seat. Now I can't understand how I was all hands because I am all seat and hardly use my hands. I can't imagine using only hands. 

It took a long time to fix. But we fixed it and I love how soft I am in the hand and seat now. I just need to get my hands higher and get my eyes off the ground *sigh*


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

We are still in the fixing stage although I've moved from the depressed portion into the excited portion because I can see improvement....


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> The more and more horse people I meet, I realize that there are two camps. Those who want to ride right, and those who want to ride easy. When the former attempt to help the latter, the result is a thread like this, because the latter always think the former are mean and the former usually thing that the latter should just buy a **** bicycle if they want to just sit there and do nothing.
> 
> Our horses are not machines. We cannot set parts of their bodies and expect them to stay that way. Nor can we jerk or pull or see saw or kick and otherwise brutalize the horse into correctness.
> 
> ...


I wanted to respond to this but this thread seems to be all over the place, so I started a new one... 

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/riding-right-vs-riding-easy-spinoff-152742/#post1883632


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

JustImagine said:


> What do you mean by riding behind the vertical; sorry, I've never heard of this before :?


These horses are behind the vertical. See how the profile of their face/nose is far behind being straight up and down?








This horse is in front of the vertical:


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

gottatrot said:


> These horses are behind the vertical. See how the profile of their face/nose is far behind being straight up and down?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh! Thank you. So the original 2 pictures I posted of him trotting are behind the vertical, and he is more in front of the vertical in this one?


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Honestly I'd rather see a horse a little in front of the vertical, this way they can at least see where they're going. @[email protected]

Yes behind the vertical is usually a way for a horse to avoid the bit pressure, meaning they're really just trying to get away from the bit - not driving up into the bit. I'm sure someone who's more educated than me can phrase that better


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

JustImagine said:


> Oh! Thank you. So the original 2 pictures I posted of him trotting are behind the vertical, and he is more in front of the vertical in this one?


Yes, that's correct. That picture is exactly where you want his nose to be. The idea of the head being exactly on the vertical is a misnomer. The nose is supposed to be a little ahead.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

So I really don't want his head to be that far down because he's trying to get away from bit pressure? When I first started this training, he used to duck his nose to his chest like the horse in the pictures gottatrot posted to try and get behind the bit and I'd drive him into it with my legs to get him to reach into it.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

You're definitely making progress by at least getting him to stretch forward even if it is currently sometimes forward & down. Ducking the nose to the chest is the worst form of bit evasion and very hard to fix. When you do use your legs to drive him forward, make sure to provide him a door up front. I'm not saying throw away the reins at all, but relax your elbows and give him that release so he knows it's okay to go forward.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

That's exactly what my trainer told me; when he first started putting his head down and not jamming it in my face, sometimes he'd duck his nose in and she told me not to let him do that because it's really hard to train out of them. He really doesn't do it at all anymore unless I'm over-thinking and not keeping my hands as quiet as I should. It was really hard for me to learn how to give but not give too much; I'm notorious for throwing my reins away sometimes.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

JustImagine said:


> That's exactly what my trainer told me; when he first started putting his head down and not jamming it in my face, sometimes he'd duck his nose in and she told me not to let him do that because it's really hard to train out of them. He really doesn't do it at all anymore unless I'm over-thinking and not keeping my hands as quiet as I should. It was really hard for me to learn how to give but not give too much; I'm notorious for throwing my reins away sometimes.


Sounds like you're making great progress - with risk of opening a whole new can of worms here, what bit are you using with him?
I find many low palleted horses will tuck behind the vertical like that when carrying a single jointed snaffle. The single joint can hit their pallet. They may also learn to do the opposite and lean on the bit, putting all the pressure on their tongue and bars to try to keep the joint off their pallet. This is why I love french links


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

I'm gonna go look through my papers I have and see if I can scan a couple in for you. It has the different types if evasion and how to fix them. There should be some papers/notes on collection as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Iseul said:


> I'm gonna go look through my papers I have and see if I can scan a couple in for you. It has the different types if evasion and how to fix them. There should be some papers/notes on collection as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's fantastic! Please post them up - I'd love to see. Does it also go into detail about different bits and which cause which sorts of evasion?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

JustImagine said:


> That's exactly what my trainer told me; when he first started putting his head down and not jamming it in my face, sometimes he'd duck his nose in and she told me not to let him do that because it's really hard to train out of them.


Actually, if you'd posted that last picture and said, "Look what great progress we've made!" Then this thread would have probably been one page long with lots of people saying, "Wow, you're coming along well!"


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

PunksTank said:


> That's fantastic! Please post them up - I'd love to see. Does it also go into detail about different bits and which clause which sorts of evasion?


It does not..But, the bit itself doesn't cause evasion, it's the hands behind them. So, if you're still learning about correct contact (like me lol, im almost there), then a french link or similar will be your best bet, as Punks said.
I'll see if I can find my books and tablets sometime tomorrow..before work if I actually wake up or when I get home. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> Sounds like you're making great progress - with risk of opening a whole new can of worms here, what bit are you using with him?
> I find many low palleted horses will tuck behind the vertical like that when carrying a single jointed snaffle. The single joint can hit their pallet. They may also learn to do the opposite and lean on the bit, putting all the pressure on their tongue and bars to try to keep the joint off their pallet. This is why I love french links


Thank you =]
I'm using a Dr. Bristol with him right now; it's the bit his previous owners got for him after they bought him (they used this bit for 4 years). My trainer hasn't wanted to change bits with him yet because she's not sure if it would be too much for him and scare him; I wish I could explain to you how scared he was before of bits and mouth contact =[ Is there a different type of bit you would suggest?

And Iseul that would be amazing! Thank you!


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Iseul said:


> It does not..But, the bit itself doesn't cause evasion, it's the hands behind them. So, if you're still learning about correct contact (like me lol, im almost there), then a french link or similar will be your best bet, as Punks said.
> I'll see if I can find my books and tablets sometime tomorrow..before work if I actually wake up or when I get home.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh of course, sorry if it came off that way - but even gentle hands with a strong bit or a sensitive horse can cause them to want to evade.  Thanks for making that clear!
Thanks I'm eager to see!


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

gottatrot said:


> JustImagine said:
> 
> 
> > That's exactly what my trainer told me; when he first started putting his head down and not jamming it in my face, sometimes he'd duck his nose in and she told me not to let him do that because it's really hard to train out of them.
> ...


I just laughed so hard.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

JustImagine said:


> Thank you =]
> I'm using a Dr. Bristol on him right now; it's the bit his previous owners got for him after they bought him (they used this bit for 4 years). My trainer hasn't wanted to change bits with him yet because she's not sure if it would be too much for him and scare him; I wish I could explain to you how scared he was before of bits and mouth contact =[ Is there a different type of bit you would suggest?
> 
> And Iseul that would be amazing! Thank you!


Yes Dr. Bristols (IMO are strong bits, which now it's all coming together). Dr. Bristol's thin side of the middle piece is designed to push into the tongue with a precise pressure, and because the middle piece is wider the joints land just about on their bars, which pinches and is uncomfortable. I can VERY easily see a horse ducking behind the vertical to get this bit off his tongue!
I think the best switch would be to a french link or lozenge style bit, they look similar enough your horse won't see a difference but will immediately feel much less pressure on his tongue and bars. 
This is a french link:









This is the lozenge style:









Both are much gentler (IMO) than a Dr. Bristol and may help keep him on the bit rather than trying to get away from it.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> Yes Dr. Bristols (IMO are strong bits, which now it's all coming together). Dr. Bristol's thin side of the middle piece is designed to push into the tongue with a precise pressure, and because the middle piece is wider the joints land just about on their bars, which pinches and is uncomfortable. I can VERY easily see a horse ducking behind the vertical to get this bit off his tongue!
> I think the best switch would be to a french link or lozenge style bit, they look similar enough your horse won't see a difference but will immediately feel much less pressure on his tongue and bars.
> This is a french link:
> 
> ...


That makes sooo much sense. I can definitely see where his bit would be pinching him; my trainer also said once that the D's on his Dr. Bristol are too heavy for his little face. What are some good brands to buy the lozenge style, and what are they exactly called? I'd love to try that on him. He's so light and needs a lot of leg, he doesn't need very much bit in his mouth. In fact, I used to ride him in just a halter and leadrope all the time, walk/trot/canter except I wouldn't make reins, I would just hold the lead on one side and neck rein him. The slightest pressure and he'd slow from the canter to a stop with no problem.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

I love the positive direction this thread has taken!! JI you are getting some great advice and I am happy to see you soaking it in. Your a great Momma for your boy. 

I think you should look into a german silver lozenge bit. Its a soft bit that many bit shy horses do very well with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

NBEventer said:


> I love the positive direction this thread has taken!! JI you are getting some great advice and I am happy to see you soaking it in. Your a great Momma for your boy.
> 
> I think you should look into a german silver lozenge bit. Its a soft bit that many bit shy horses do very well with.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Aww, thank you =] I'm REALLY glad punkstank brought up bits because it's something I really hadn't been thinking about.
Is this the bit you're talking about?
Loose Ring Lozenge Fat Link Copper Mix Snaffle Bit s s German Silver 4 Sizes | eBay
Also, how do you measure what size bit will fit your horse?


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

yep thats the one! My mare has a super soft mouth and she goes like a dream in it. Actually just about every horse in my barn goes in that bit. It makes for very happy ponies  as for measuring I would just measure your current bit if it fits him. Just measure across the mouth piece.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

Awesome, thank you! I'm so excited to try it with him. I'll measure his bit tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure it's 4.5 inches.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

that is a great bit. my "go to" bit.


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

Tiny is obviously better than me..I learned to use a harsh bit with soft hands for a few days and see how nice my cues were when I went back to a snaffle (or whatever bit I was using). XD

I was never working on collection or towards a headset (showed games) though, haha. I'm use to tossing a correction bit on for 3 good, long workouts and then continuing whatever I was doing beforehand..Still bresking myself of it, haha. ST I'm not too worried about collection with, she still has coordination/balance simpleness. Lucky on the otherhand has horrible (while untreated) hock arthritis, so the first thing we'll being doing is thinning her up, and then to dressage style training we go, where I won't revert to my first way of fixing a nonresponsive horse 
I have some time this morning as long as I dont mess around to find it, but I'll probably post them later tonight when I get home (have to visit the boyfriend so he can punch holes in my new bridle..its too big and the leather is MUCH too thick for me, haha).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

As I'm researching buying this bit, I'm finding out I have to buy it in the UK, haha.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

I agree with the bit recommendations. I put my Arab in a French link and he's lots happier now.

Measure carefully - my horses previous owner said he was a 4.5" but when I measured him he was a 4.75". Between changing bits and putting him in the proper size, he was so very much happier!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

Thanks, I will do that! I know his current bit fits him, so as long as I can measure that one correctly I should be good =] His current bit is also a jumping bit, and especially since we're not jumping anymore it'll be good to try this new bit with him. I feel like it's the right time anyways.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Kayty said:


> Get rid of the Dr Bristol - they are not Dressage legal - and put him in a french link. It is a similar bit, with the double joined mouth piece, but the 'dogbone' lies flat on the tongue rather than on an angle as the Dr Bristol does, making the french link a less severe bit - and a Dressage legal one at that.


Kayty brought up bits on page one... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

I know; I browsed over it once and haven't read it since. I printed it all out to show my trainer since some of it is stuff my trainer's been telling me, and some of it is stuff we haven't gotten to to yet so I'm not sure how to exactly do it myself.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

I think changing to a french link wil help him immensely. I get the sense that he's sucking back from the bit because the link on a Dr. Bristol is at a rather harsh angle, and changing to a french link (more comfortable for many horses to carry, while still having similar action to the Dr. Bristol) will encourage him to stretch and take contact with the bit.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

Ohh good, that's exactly what I'm hoping for =] As soon as I get to my barn today (we got a bunch of snow last night/this morning so I'm waiting for the drive to be plowed) I'll measure his bit and order that new one.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Interesting though, my Arab goes well in an Eggbut French Link, but really fusses with the loose ring, so LOL, sometimes it is not just the mouthpiece but the checkpieces that make a happy horse


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> Interesting though, my Arab goes well in an Eggbut French Link, but really fusses with the loose ring, so LOL, sometimes it is not just the mouthpiece but the checkpieces that make a happy horse


I guess I'll find out which one works better, haha =] It's at least worth a try.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

equiniphile said:


> I think changing to a french link wil help him immensely. I get the sense that he's sucking back from the bit because the link on a Dr. Bristol is at a rather harsh angle, and changing to a french link (more comfortable for many horses to carry, while still having similar action to the Dr. Bristol) will encourage him to stretch and take contact with the bit.


In the photo's it does not appear that he is sucking back. A horse sucking back off the pressure does not haul down. I think he is instead relying on her hands to keep him balanced in that frame, and as such the nose is coming behind the vertical. 
A change to a French Link or similar would be beneficial however, just for the fact that it is a much milder bit and if the OP even wants to compete she's going to have to make that change anyway. 

Just a side note - it is not a bad thing to occasionally put a horse behind the vertical. It is good to change the 'frame' - you can't always ride a horse up, perfectly in front of the vertical with the poll high. If the horse gets a little strong, it is good to put them somewhat deep to soften and relax the topline and jaw, before bringing them up again.


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

JustImagine said:


> Oh! Thank you. So the original 2 pictures I posted of him trotting are behind the vertical, and he is more in front of the vertical in this one?


 
Yep. What they said  They just beat me to it, lol


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

I rode him this afternoon and worked with him on not getting behind the vertical; and I found that when he would put his head down far and haul on me, when I wanted to bump him back up he would suck his head in sometimes and I'd really have to bump him back up to me. But I noticed that he wasn't as much all over the place with his head; he was a lot more consistent and not bopping up and down as much.
Does this frame look better? (ignore my funky hands, I was adjusting my reins, haha). It's actually from 2 weeks ago but it's a clearer picture.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

JustImagine said:


> I rode him this afternoon and worked with him on not getting behind the vertical; and I found that when he would put his head down far and haul on me, when I wanted to bump him back up he would suck his head in sometimes and I'd really have to bump him back up to me. But I noticed that he wasn't as much all over the place with his head; he was a lot more consistent and not bopping up and down as much.
> Does this frame look better? (ignore my funky hands, I was adjusting my reins, haha). It's actually from 2 weeks ago but it's a clearer picture.


That's lovely.  I still think a bit change will do you a great deal of good, but I'm happy to hear he's doing better!!


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

Thank you =] I'm really excited to try the new bit with him. I took some measurements and pictures of his current one today because I couldn't tell if he's a 4 1/2 of 4 3/4 ? I just want to make sure I'm getting the correct size for him. Sorry for the poo quality pictures. It looks a lot like 4 1/2 but I'm not positive.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

I'm almost certain you would want to get a 5" because when you go to a loose ring you need to go up a bit to prevent pinching.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

Oh really? I can see where the bits are put together differently. So if you're measuring a loose ring would you be measuring the entire bit, or just until where the rings are? Here are pictures because I'm really not the best with wording sometimes.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

You want to measure the second picture, and you want a little extra space because you want to get bit guards. They are little rubber circles that go around the bit between their cheeks and the rings of the bit. Those protect their lips from being pinched by the ring when it turns. They take up a little room I'd add about 1/2 to the bit size to make room for them


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

Awesome, that helps so much! Thank you =]


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

PunksTank bit guards are not legal in dressage.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

That is a better frame, he looks lighter in your hands there. 
From that, try asking him to go more forward. You want to hind legs to track at the very least, into the front hoof prints.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

So no bit guards?
And thank you Kayty; I'll do that on Sunday when I work with him next. I swear, I never knew how much leg this would be, ha.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

JustImagine said:


> So no bit guards?
> And thank you Kayty; I'll do that on Sunday when I work with him next. I swear, I never knew how much leg this would be, ha.


Nope, no bit guards 

Honestly if your loose ring is fitted properly there is no need for bit guards. They are kind of a thing of the past these days.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Out of curiosity - why are bit guards not legal? They're only for the horses comfort aren't they? I feel like I'm missing something...


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

JustImagine,

Since the discussion is on that bit, which I use one just like it and love it, let me throw in some thoughts on the thickness of the bit. A lot of people go by the old adage that a thicker bit is a kinder bit. This may be true in theory, but if your horse has a low palette or just a small mouth, a big wad of a thick bit will feel like it's gagging him., so won't be kinder.

I think I generally use one that is ? milimeters? (editted. I don't know the milimeters.) You know, I am just pulling that number out of the air, thinking that was right, but I'd have to check . I dont' think in milimeters, I think in inches, and I think the diameter of the bit I use is something like a third of an inch?

It's a KK Ultra, so maybe that would tell you something.

Anyway, my point being to consider the size of you Arab's mouth and maybe not get the fattest one out there.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Can you use a ported bit in dressage? Just curious...


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> JustImagine,
> 
> Since the discussion is on that bit, which I use one just like it and love it, let me throw in some thoughts on the thickness of the bit. A lot of people go by the old adage that a thicker bit is a kinder bit. This may be true in theory, but if your horse has a low palette or just a small mouth, a big wad of a thick bit will feel like it's gagging him., so won't be kinder.
> 
> ...


That definitely makes sense. I really don't know a whole lot about bits, but I can see how a fatter one wouldn't be good for my tiny mouthed Arab. Are the KK Ultra (Loose Ring Snaffles?) all the same size (as far as diameter goes), or should I be looking for a smaller diameter one?


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Haha yes, a lot of leg is required particularly when you're just starting out with a green horse. Gradually as the horse's education, strength and balance increase you can use less leg, but for now, you'll probably get off feeling pretty tired! 

Tiny is correct regarding bit thickness, my horse loses the plot if I try to put something to thick in his mouth. He goes far better in a thinner, french link Baucher style bit. The Baucher keeps the bit steadier in the mouth, some horses hate them, but mine goes much better in it than the loose ring. 
The KK ultras are really good bits, as are Sprengers and Neue Schules. My own bit is a NS - and though pricey I just love them and will probably never go to another brand if I can help it. 
The Science


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Haha yes, a lot of leg is required particularly when you're just starting out with a green horse. Gradually as the horse's education, strength and balance increase you can use less leg, but for now, you'll probably get off feeling pretty tired! 

Tiny is correct regarding bit thickness, my horse loses the plot if I try to put something to thick in his mouth. He goes far better in a thinner, french link Baucher style bit. The Baucher keeps the bit steadier in the mouth, some horses hate them, but mine goes much better in it than the loose ring. 
The KK ultras are really good bits, as are Sprengers and Neue Schules. My own bit is a NS - and though pricey I just love them and will probably never go to another brand if I can help it. 
The Science


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

Just Imagine, I have held off on posting in this thread because I knew everyone else was going to say what I wanted to say. I've been watching until now and basically skipped through at least 5 pages when the discussion didn't progress.

I want to commend your achievement with your arab. They have short little necks and love to carry their heads high. I remember the first day I ever a rode an arab into my hand in a nice, balanced, steady and softened trot. It randomly came out of nowhere in the lesson after 2 months of bolting around and evading leg pressures. We held it only for a couple circles but I felt like a queen, even though that was only the chip of the iceburg.

I can understand your excitement even though your horse's head was far beyond the vertical and he was plowing on the forehand. Though now you understand that there needs to be a balance between the two extremes and in order to do that, you have to adjust the way you think while you ride (which you have been).

I would suggest that instead of bumping him up with the bit when he tries to suck behind, try pushing him forward and back into position with your leg and as he rises, catch him with a bilateral halfhalt. Instead of correcting his head with the bit (by bumping the bit), you will be driving him from behind and into it instead.

Think of it like a piece of paper that you're holding at both ends. The left side represents the back end of the horse, the right side is the front. When you bring your left hand closer to your right hand, the paper bends and archs upward. When you drive the horse from behind and halfhalt, the horse will arch.

Of course theres more to it than just that, but thats a visual you can use when people suggest "riding from behind" or "ride the butt".

Your newest picture look greats. I look forward to seeing you progress


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

Kayty said:


> Haha yes, a lot of leg is required particularly when you're just starting out with a green horse. Gradually as the horse's education, strength and balance increase you can use less leg, but for now, you'll probably get off feeling pretty tired!
> 
> Tiny is correct regarding bit thickness, my horse loses the plot if I try to put something to thick in his mouth. He goes far better in a thinner, french link Baucher style bit. The Baucher keeps the bit steadier in the mouth, some horses hate them, but mine goes much better in it than the loose ring.
> The KK ultras are really good bits, as are Sprengers and Neue Schules. My own bit is a NS - and though pricey I just love them and will probably never go to another brand if I can help it.
> The Science


It's so true; as hot as he can be at times, I never thought I'd have to use this much leg on him. It does get exhausting, haha.

Thanks! I'll have to do some researching on those tonight and try and figure out which bit would be best for Image; I'm glad you and Tiny helped rule out fatter ones for him =] It's things like that, where I don't really think about it but once it's pointed out it makes sense.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

Copperhead said:


> Just Imagine, I have held off on posting in this thread because I knew everyone else was going to say what I wanted to say. I've been watching until now and basically skipped through at least 5 pages when the discussion didn't progress.
> 
> I want to commend your achievement with your arab. They have short little necks and love to carry their heads high. I remember the first day I ever a rode an arab into my hand in a nice, balanced, steady and softened trot. It randomly came out of nowhere in the lesson after 2 months of bolting around and evading leg pressures. We held it only for a couple circles but I felt like a queen, even though that was only the chip of the iceburg.
> 
> ...


Aww, thank you! That's exactly how I felt the first time I had Image in a nice, soft trot. At the time we could only do maybe half a circle, but it's always nice knowing that it can be done; and that moment when I realized he wasn't scared of the bit anymore =]
It's interesting that you brought this up, because today when I was trying to keep him from getting too low on me I would sit deep and give him leg and roll my fingers and he would start tucking his face in to his chest but he wouldn't lift his head; so that's when I started lightly bumping him up to me but still using my leg. I know sometimes I'm not sitting as deep as I should, from doing hunters before, so could that be part of the problem as well? I hadn't tried half halting, though, so that's something else to think of the next time I work with him =]
Thank you.


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

Halfhalting is a very valuable thing and its one of the first things that should be introduced to anyone interested in dressage. 

The halfhalt can be used for many things, but its mainly used for rebalancing. 

If he was sucking behind as you were driving him forward, he wasn't going "forward". Forward is so much more than just a direction. Its when the horse becomes responsive to your aids without evading. When he sucked behind, he was evading your commands of "pushing him out". He wasn't "forward".

Lets stop focusing so much on his head. His head is just the end result of whats happening with his entire body. We tell you to ride from behind with the end result being refocused back on his head. Thats not what dressage is about at all. (ETA: The HEAD isn't what dressage is all about. Just thought I'd clear that up!)

I would suggest "coming and goings"...but with your seat. This will take some time, especially with an arabian. It will help you with halfhalts as well. "Coming and goings" are a transition in the same gait. Fast trot down to slow trot and back to fast trot...using only your seat. Keep your reins, or course. But try not to guide his speed with them. Use your seat. Sit deep and exhale when you want him to slow down. When he responds, keep the slow trot for a bit and then ask for a fast trot.

This will make him move out without hitting the bit and it will help your dependancy on the reins. The bad part is that you have taught him to suck behind by using pressures on his mouth and now when he feels those pressures, he will suck behind automatically. Now you have to go about reversing that. And in order to do that, you need to stop focusing on the angle of his head and worry about riding him with your seat. Get out of his face.

When you learn how to control him with your seat and legs, the world will open up. The halfhalt is only partially the rein. The halfhalt comes from your seat and legs first, reins last. 

It is OK for his head to be up right now, since you are reversing a bad habit. He is bracing on your hands and giving to pressure in a negative way. Let his head up and focus on controlling him with your seat. When he is going nice and "forward" (tracking up, responding to your seat) then engage the reins more and you'll have a better reaction when you drive him into the bit.

I have used the "bump" method for bracers and though its a momentary fix, it doesn't address the underlying problem.

The internet is generally a poor riding instructor. What we are saying will be a jumbled mess in your head as you try to remember while you ride. You need a qualified professional to teach you the specifics in "real time" and be able to tweak and adjust you as you ride.

I've already written a book in this post but theres so much more to say. This post only covers one suggested exercise. There are many more.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Great post copperhead!
And you are so very correct in that it is near impossible to teach via the internet. Unless it is an active feedback system, with constant videos being streamed back so that we can provide accurate critique and suggestion for the exact issues going on, then it is very hard. There are so many ways to skin a cat - this makes it incredibly hard to give a full riding lesson over the net!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

this is the KK Ultra I use. I think it's a 16 mm diameter, it's the smallest they make. I also have an 18 mm , 6 inch wide for the draft x that I ride .


Herm Sprenger KK 16mm Ultra Loose Ring Snaffle Bit | Dover Saddlery


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

This is where my favorite quote by Carl Hester comes to mind "Half-halts are invisible - or should be - that's why they're so hard to explain. It's what works for you."


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

Okay. .this is all I've got for tonight..just finally got home (and didn't get my bridle holes punched! grr), lol.

It's the training tree, I think it's decent is German, but it is a dressage foundation. 

Im sure someone or myself could explain more in depth what the actual steps entail or such (probably a dressage rider better than myself though, lol).









_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

farmpony84 said:


> Can you use a ported bit in dressage? Just curious...


Only as the curb part of a double and then it is only specific ones you can use.
Ported snaffles are not allowed (much to my disapointment as stan went beautifully in a cambridge snaffle but we had to use a french link as the cambridge is not dressage legal)


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I wonder how they determine what is legal and what is not?


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

It is on the action of the bit and the pressure points it creates. 
Anything with poll action isnt allowed unless part of a double (doubles are allowed only at certain levels), links have to be flat on the toungue (unlike a dr bristol). No curbs unless part of a double.

Multi links (so anything more that 2 links) are not allowed either


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

This thread has turned out to be soooo awesome!  Can't wait to see current pictures after you've worked with your trainer on putting some of these things to use


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

Copperhead said:


> Halfhalting is a very valuable thing and its one of the first things that should be introduced to anyone interested in dressage.
> 
> The halfhalt can be used for many things, but its mainly used for rebalancing.
> 
> ...


I read this last night a few times, and came back and read it again today to kind of let it sink in before commenting back. And I'm glad that I did, because I talked to my trainer about it a little today (we have a lesson tomorrow with Image) and she had me ride her paint mare that she trained to use minimal reins and all seat and leg. It helped a lot with getting me to see (or feel) where I'm supposed to go in the direction with Image's training. So thank you for posting this, it helped a lot =]


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> Out of curiosity - why are bit guards not legal? They're only for the horses comfort aren't they? I feel like I'm missing something...


I'm still wondering about this, too? Is it because if the bit fits correctly there shouldn't be any pinching?
By the way, I'm bringing my Dr. Bristol up to my tack store tomorrow so they can help me fit and find a new bit for Image =D A couple of the ladies who work there are very knowledgeable with dressage, and super friendly and helpful so I think it would be a good place to start looking.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I have heard that the Dr. Bristol is markedly stronger bit than the regular French link due to the angle of the flat piece. In the french link, it lies with the flat part against the tongue, and the Dr. Brisol is rotated 90 degrees so that the small edge of the middle piece (sharper) rests against the tongue. I have no idea if this is true or not, but thought I'd pass it on.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> I have heard that the Dr. Bristol is markedly stronger bit than the regular French link due to the angle of the flat piece. In the french link, it lies with the flat part against the tongue, and the Dr. Brisol is rotated 90 degrees so that the small edge of the middle piece (sharper) rests against the tongue. I have no idea if this is true or not, but thought I'd pass it on.


That actually wouldn't surprise me; I was checking it out today, and does not look like it would lay flat on his tongue in his mouth. So I'm definitely happy many people have given me bit advice because I really don't know a terrible amount about bits; but now I know more of what I'm looking for =]


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Yours actually looks like a French link.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

So here is the bit that I ended up buying for Image today. I bought a 5, and it fits him pretty well. It's maybe the slightest bit big, but he did really well in it! My trainer and I weren't sure how he'd react to having a new bit in his mouth, since he seriously hasn't had a bit change in 5 years and the bit before his Dr. Bristol was a really harsh one. During our lesson today, she said we're to the point with him where we know that he can put his head down instead of smacking me in the face with it, so we were just working a lot with my eq (I have hunter written all over me) and this week she wants me to work on instead of asking him to put his head down and collect himself, seeing if he'll do it on his own. Which he was today; and the few times that I had to ask him, he wasn't trying to come behind the bit, which was nice.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Much nicer bit  He'll feel a lot happier in that and I suspect you'll see a gradual improvement as he become more confident in his mouth.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

Thank you =] I'm really proud of how he handled it today; I'm so looking forward to working with him in it and seeing how he improves. I'm going to continue riding my trainer's paint mare on the days I'm not riding Image to help me out, too. I'll have to try and post a video sometime this week of Image and I; I'm glad everyone was nice enough to me when I was kind of being a poo head to make me realize that everyone was just trying to help with their critique. It's helped me so much so far, and I'd absolutely love to keep getting critiqued as Image and I go forward.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Yay!! So glad you got things worked out here and in the saddle! Just keep improving, you never stop!

Question, what is the difference between a regular snaffle and a french link? As far as function? Hopefully someone can explain this quick and simple, I don't want to hijack this thread! Just curious and want to learn


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

A french link has two links, as opposed to just one like a 'regular' snaffle. The one joint can have a nutcracker effect on a horse's mouth - in a low palleted or otherwise sensitive mouthed horse, every time the rider touches the rein the joint pushes upwards, which can hit the roof of the mouth and pinch the tongue. 
A french link alleviates that action, and tends to act more on the float of the tongue and bars of the mouth. 
Not all horses go better in them, but I've yet to ride one who hasn't preferred the french link.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Oh man, maybe one of the mods can delete two of those posts? lol *embarrassing* 

Thank you kayty! That makes a lot more sense.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

So, bad news...there will be no video this week. Image is super lame on his LF =[ He was perfectly sound for our lesson yesterday, but my trainer called me this morning to say he was lame. He was pretty lame when I got out there to see him tonight, too. We think he was playing and slipped and fell on the ice.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Sorry to hear that. Let us know when you find out what caused it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Boo! Stinking horses are always hurting themselves


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

So, it's been a while since I've posted on this; but to sum things up, it took a month for Image to heal from his LF injury then the same week went dead lame in his RH. I got clearance from the vet about a month ago to start working him again, so I've been riding him at the walk and just a few laps of trot once or twice a week. I also have a picture from us riding today :] His new bit and this was the first time I'd ridden him in about a week and a half. Any feedback? I'd like to get a video up soon, too.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

not enough photos to give riding crit, but I can say you look very poised and make an adorable pair!


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