# barefoot trimming- need advice



## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

I do not use any hoof supplements. I would if the horse _needed_ them. I suggest keeping them on a good quality feeding program and they will be fine. I have mineral blocks and also add a loose mineral to the feed.


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## WildAcreFarms (Apr 6, 2011)

*Healthy feet come from inside*

Everything I have read says that Healthy feet are grown and there is noting that you can paint on the outside that helps. I've also read that all the vitamins or hoof care additions to the feed do very little if anything. the best thing you can do is to keep the horses in a clean DRY area; too much moisture is the bane of good solid hoofs.

My horses live on about 10 acres of slightly sloped pasture and get grass and a little strategy/sweetfeed 2 times daily and their hoofs look great.

I too am transitioning horses to the barefoot method. My Arab went through the transition with no hitch at all. the Thoroughbred I'm a little worried about as the trainer i bought her from said that last time she threw a shoe she looked tender footed until they got a shoe back on her. hopefully the barefoot trimmer will take a lot of the toe off and let the heel be. (i think shes really low in the heel straight off the track)

good luck!!


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## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

My old gelding had been barefoot for pretty much as long as I've had him(13 years) my 2 newest horses came with shoes, Legacy our appy we got in june came with all 4's shod, i pulled his and he remained 100% sound and his feet continued to look great, Bella my OTTB mare who i got at the end of may came with her front shod, i pulled them and she stayed sound but after a few weeks her feet started chipping pretty bad, i put her on biotin 20 soon after i noticed the chipping and now her feet look great, i just moved her to my lesson stable(she had been at my moms house) and the terrain is much rockier there but so far so good, we only moved her up there yesterday tho


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Some horses are just fine without shoes some absolutely need them. Depends on the horse. Maybe depends on the discipline too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mlkarel2010 (Jan 27, 2008)

Here is the video I used to learn how to do a barefoot trim! It's really helpful! 




As for supplements, Biotin is a known agent to help with hooves, but it'll take awhile for you to notice results just because it takes awhile for the hoof to grow out. Also, there is a lot supporting copper and zinc as being really great for hooves too!


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## QOS (Dec 8, 2008)

The barn I am at has gone barefoot. My boys are both barefoot. Hubby's horse Sarge, has wonderfully hard tough feet and he is NEVER gimpy even over gravel or rocks.

Biscuit came to me with lopped off hooves and was tenderfooted as a result. I had to let his feet grow out for more than 3 months while teaching him to let me pick up his feet. Back in February, we had a barefoot trim clinic with a world class endurance rider and we are all into mustang rolls and doing our on hooves.

We live in an area of either sandy soil or gumbo clay type mud...no rocks unless they are brought in. We rode at a park 4 hours away this past weekend on some really rocky trails. Our horses were all in Easy Boot Gloves on the front as they are not used to that much rock but their back hooves all did just fine...no cracking, splitting or fraying and we rode them for 20 miles over this stuff and some at a pretty good clip!

Get books and look at the videos to learn more about this type of trimming. A good diet is always important and a hoof supplement surely won't hurt but you might just be throwing your money away. (our horses are all on Safe Choice)


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

mbender said:


> Some horses are just fine without shoes some absolutely need them. Depends on the horse. Maybe depends on the discipline too.


Many horses need hoof *protection* in some situations at least, but NO horse needs metal rims.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi Katie,

My advice to you is to educate yourself as best you can, so you can make informed decisions about hoof care & management. There are so many factors aside from a good trim that effect hoof health. As you've mentioned, nutrition for one. I agree with whoever said don't necessarily worry about specifically hoof related supps, because so long as your horse is getting a well balanced diet, the hooves will be being fed appropriately too - they're only modified skin/hair after all. So a good quality complete supp that is appropriate for her area/diet is probably best.

Diet is perhaps even more important than nutrition and studies have now shown how much conventional feeding practices effect horse health, including the feet. Eg. horses are 'trickle feeders' & don't do well with big &/or infrequent meals. They also are built to eat poor grade(compared to cattle fattening pastures) forage and don't cope well with starchy, sugary feeds, so it's generally best to avoid grain, molasses, etc.

As for products, buying yourself a rasp & getting the trimmer to teach you how to 'brush up' the roll & such in between trims is a good idea. Hoof boots are often necessary to protect feet in some situations at least, such as rough trails & roads, if your horse is living in a nice soft paddock or such. There's lots to learn & do, but not much else that's really necessary to buy, product-wise. Happy journeys!


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## Anvil (Feb 21, 2009)

loosie said:


> Many horses need hoof *protection* in some situations at least, but NO horse needs metal rims.


I agree most horses need hoof protection be it trimming to maintain the hoof or shoe the hoof.
I am all for the barefoot trims, but unfortunately some horses would die if they would not have shoes to protect their feet.
I'm not looking to start a controversy.
Here is a question for any one thats against shoeing a horse.
Why do you think the horseshoe was invented ? To protect a foot that needs protection and correction.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Anvil said:


> but unfortunately some horses would die if they would not have shoes to protect their feet.....
> Why do you think the horseshoe was invented ? To protect a foot that needs protection and correction.


Rather dramatic there. Yes, horseshoes were invented a long, long time ago, to protect *walls* from overwear, when management wasn't up to scratch(eg. horses began being kept in stables, etc.) They allow a horse to be used regardless of hoof health. Back then, longevity wasn't an issue, only usefulness. These days tho, many, many hundreds of years later, we have much more knowledge(available) about health & soundness & much better options for healthy hoof protection/care, than the ancient metal rim. We also do tend to only keep horses for recreation & care about longevity. Again, I agree they often need protection for what we want of them. It's just the 'necessity' of metal rims, causing peripheral loading, huge vibrations on hard ground & providing no protection for anything but the ground surface of the walls I take issue with.

Happy to elaborate further on the reasons for my views, for anyone interested, but don't wish to hijack this thread to do it, so I'll say no more here.


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## bntnail (Feb 3, 2011)

loosie said:


> They allow a horse to be used regardless of hoof health. Back then, longevity wasn't an issue, only usefulness.


I call BS here. Shoes allow horses to do jobs that are above and beond the capibility of bare feet alone. OSHA requires work boots for some jobs for a reason. Podiatrists use orthotics all the time to aid healing/rehab.Yes,hoof boots can be used, but the do not cover all options.

As for the second statement, I don't think so.



> It's just the 'necessity' of metal rims, causing peripheral loading, huge vibrations on hard ground & providing no protection for anything but the ground surface of the walls I take issue with.


Peer reviewed scientific data please? Prferably published in a medical type journal or at least by a non-biased party.

Go easy on the kool-aid, the sugar isn't good for you.:wink:


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## KatieQ (Apr 4, 2011)

Oh dear- I wasn't trying to start something. I just feel that for my purposes shoeing may not be a necessity (depending on how my horse's hooves stand up, of course). He will be mainly trail ridden- when I do ride him- he's only 2 now. His hooves appear to be strong and healthy and he is a Morgan who I believe have good feet, anyway. If I can avoid the cost and hassle of shoeing that would be great, but I wondered if there was something I should be doing now to help them or to avoid future problems.


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## WildAcreFarms (Apr 6, 2011)

not looking to start a controversy either but how do you think horses made it before we humans started shoeing them? and if you think that we only have to shoe them becasue we ride them, what about the thousands of years that we rode horses without shoeing them? 
i don't understand why natural hoof trimmers and farriers are at such odds with each other?!? Were ALL IN THE SAME camp and we all want whats best for our horses. why can't we all work together towards those ends?


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

This is an interesting thread as I am getting front shoes on Hunter today for the first time (he is 3). A lot of the trails we ride are quite rocky and he has a very hard time on them, I actually had to get off and lead him on one trail it was so bad. I wish they wouldn't groom the trails with the sharp pointy rocks, the pea gravel does very well. Anyhoo, I had thought about boots but have seen what my friend goes through every time and how much money she has spent to get proper boots that fit so I figured shoeing the fronts for the summer would be the way to go. Now I am having second thoughts, I will speak to my farrier today when she comes.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

KatieQ said:


> I am planning on using a natural barefoot trimmer for my 2 new horses. Being "old school" and out of the loop for so long I know very little about this, but the idea does appeal to me.


How can you make an educated decision about what is best for your horses when you admit you know very little about the theory you are deciding to impose on your animals?



loosie said:


> Many horses need hoof *protection* in some situations at least, but NO horse needs metal rims.


Loosie, I realize you are of the theory that ALL horses can and should be barefoot.

What is your thought on a horse that is not sound barefoot and the owner wants to do a sport that does not allow hoof boots?
Or what about the horse that is not even pasture sound barefoot? We all know that living in a foot encapsulating boot 24/7 is not a good idea (per the manufacturers).


I think barefoot is great. I prefer it myself. I just live in the real world where I know that there are no definitives when it comes to living breathing creatures and some horses are just not able to go barefoot.



WildAcreFarms said:


> not looking to start a controversy either but how do you think horses made it before we humans started shoeing them?


Oh....gosh.... the wild horses can do it why can't mine, theory.

Do you realize how much shorter the life span of a wild horse is?
Do you realize that horses in the wild die a horrible and cruel death if they go lame?
Do you realize the horses that die because of bad feet, legs, etcs are not able to breed more horses with bad feet?

Domesticated horses are not the same thing. We have not allowed survival of the fittest to take place. We (general population we) breed for what we want, forgetting about other traits, like good feet. Have you looked at the tiny out of scale feet of the average halter bred QH lately?



WildAcreFarms said:


> i don't understand why natural hoof trimmers and farriers are at such odds with each other?!? Were ALL IN THE SAME camp and we all want whats best for our horses. why can't we all work together towards those ends?


Because there are many people on the one side who insist that it is an all or nothing issue. 
There are many great barefoot trimmers out there who admit there are horses that need to have shoes (for a variety of reasons) and will refer their customers to a farrier when they need shoes.
Then there are the people who insist any shoe is evil.
My farrier actually prefers his clients horses to be barefoot.


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## bntnail (Feb 3, 2011)

WildAcreFarms said:


> not looking to start a controversy either but how do you think horses made it before we humans started shoeing them? and if you think that we only have to shoe them becasue we ride them, what about the thousands of years that we rode horses without shoeing them?
> i don't understand why natural hoof trimmers and farriers are at such odds with each other?!? Were ALL IN THE SAME camp and we all want whats best for our horses. why can't we all work together towards those ends?


No controversy. 90% of the horses I take care of are bare. I'm all for not using shoes whenever possible. I actually make more money trimming.

Ask any farrier what the most important part of a shoeing is.

Only thing I and most farriers are at odds w/ the barefooters over is this vibration/peripheral loading as well as the "transition" period. That and the beliefe that all horses should and can be bare for all jobs. Not all trimmers are "bad", I do however have to go and clean up after some trimmers, just like i do w/ bad farriers.


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## WildAcreFarms (Apr 6, 2011)

dear Always behind,
Please don't speak to me like I'm an idiot. you don't know me AT ALL. you know nothing about me or my level of horse expertise. I don't think horse shoes are evil, i just that for most horses there is a better way. all i'm saying is that horses exhisted for many years without our loving care and did just fine, in fact IN MY OPINION a lot of problems our domestic horses face today are as a result of the way we manage them, and left in thier natural state these problems are much smaller or don't exist at all.
People were riding horses for 7000 years before the invention of the horse shoe and they survived and thrived...... i don't hate shoes i just think in most cases horses can be transitioned go barefoot and that is a more natural state and better in the long run for the horse.....


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Of course most of the problems our current horses are because they have been domesticated. 
I think I described the biggest cause in my post that you are busy bashing.

We (general population we) breed for things other than good feet. 

We have the ability to have a horse that can work when it has bad feet so no reason to worry about making horses with good feet.


ETA - I am not saying this is a good thing, I am just stating a fact. This fact greatly lowers the number of horses who can perform their jobs barefoot.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Why is barefoot "better for the horse in the long run?"

Here's an interesting little study:

*Hoof problems common in wild horses - study*


November 30, 2010

A study of the hooves of New Zealand's Kaimanawa wild horses has found wide variation between horses, with foot abnormalities being surprisingly common. 
​








A family group of wild horses at home in the Kaimanawa Ranges. © Bethany Judson. 
A study of the feet of 20 Kaimanawa wild horses found there was no consistent foot type. The researchers found 35 per cent had long toe conformation, 15 per cent had medio-lateral imbalance, and 85 per cent of horses had lateral wall flares. 
Other common abnormalities included large hoof wall defects, frog abnormalities and contracted and under-run heels. 
The findings were contained in a report published in the Australian Veterinary Journal. 
Lead researcher was Brian Hampson of the Australian Brumby Research Unit, at the University of Queensland's School of Veterinary Science. 
Hampson told Equine Science Update: "The aim of the study was, for the first time, to investigate empirically both the morphometric characteristics and the incidence of foot abnormalities in a group of adult feral horses and to determine the effect of a free-roaming feral lifestyle and lack of human intervention on foot morphology and health of the population." 
The feet of feral horses, such as the North American mustang and the Australian brumby, have been held up as examples of ideal conformation. 
However, the findings of the New Zealand study indicate that the natural lifestyle - freedom to roam, and the ability to choose what to eat - does not necessarily result in ideal foot conformation. 
Kaimanawa horses are small (133 to 151cm at the withers), being descended from Welsh and Exmoor-type ponies that have been feral since the 1880s. 
Other bloodlines were added as the result of escapes from farms and cavalry units so that present-day horses are more closely related to the thoroughbred. 
About 1500 animals live in a land of upland plateaux, with steep hills, river basins and valleys, covering an area of about 700 square kilometres. 
The research team took standardised photographs of all four feet and lateromedial radiographs of the left fore foot of 20 adult horses from the Kaimanawa horse population. 
The most surprising finding in the study was the radiographic and visual evidence of chronic laminitis. Laminar rings were present on 80 per cent of horses. 
In contrast to the more standardised conformation of the feral horses of North Australia, the Kaimanawa horses had a wide range of foot shapes. 
According to Hampson, this is most likely explained by differences in substrate hardness and distances travelled, and the effect of these two variables on hoof wear. 
"The large range in the morphometric variables and the high incidence of abnormalities in the feet of Kaimanawa feral horses may be related to dietary or environmental influences, or a combination of both," he writes. 
"There may be insufficient environmental pressure driving natural selection of foot type. 
"Perhaps their environment, consisting of a soft substrate and with easy access to pasture and water, tolerates a broad range of foot conformation in Kaimanawa horses." 
"Clearly this group of feral horses should not be used to guide the direction of foot care practice." 
In a further study, Hampson looked for microscopic evidence of chronic laminitis in hoof samples. 
Histopathologic examination revealed a high incidence of changes in the laminae. Many samples had changes in the laminae. The features were similar to those found in domestic horses with chronic laminitis. 
This seems to be the first study to confirm microscopically that chronic laminitis occurs in feral horses, Hampson points out. It supports the hypothesis that the horse is vulnerable to laminitis irrespective of its state of domestication. 
Maybe the physiological and bioengineering adaptations of the foot, that give horses such speed and agility, have been achieved at the cost of vulnerability. 
He suggests nutrition is likely to be a major contributing factor. "Long day lengths at high altitude in the Kaimanawa Ranges coupled with temperatures below freezing produce the ideal scenario for pasture-induced laminitis." 
Hoof problems common in wild horses - study | Horsetalk.co.nz - International horse news


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## WildAcreFarms (Apr 6, 2011)

dear always behind,
I didn't intend to BASH anyone. thus no quotes in my post. I'm only stating my opinion and my experience and research into this topic. if you felt i was attacking you i apologize as that was NEVER my intention. IF anyone felt attacked by my post i humbly apologize.... it was not intentional.
I'm a pretty moderate person who thinks there are often times a lot of different paths to get the right result, especially when you're talking about horses


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## mlkarel2010 (Jan 27, 2008)

Hey guys, not to be rude but should we be debating when the OP just wanted some advice? Don't get me wrong, I love a good shoes vs. barefoot debate, but there is another place for that.

Although you guys have valid arguments can we keep stuff directed toward the OP's requests just out of respect?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hmm, so much for not hijacking the thread, sorry OP! Hope this discussion helps give you food for thought to educate yourself further anyway.



bntnail said:


> I call BS here. Shoes allow horses to do jobs that are above and beond the capibility of bare feet alone. OSHA requires work boots for some jobs for a reason. Podiatrists use orthotics all the time to aid healing/rehab.Yes,hoof boots can be used, but the do not cover all options.


I agree with what you have said above. That's not the issue. 



> Peer reviewed scientific data please? Prferably published in a medical type journal or at least by a non-biased party.


Yeah, Dr Robert Bowker's studies are one source. You can look up some of his papers online at the International Veterinary Information Service (www.ivis.org) for one. I know Rooney did a lot of scientific testing too, but not sure about if/where he's published, aside from his books. There have also been thermographic and high frequency vibration studies carried out in more recent years. Another Hampstead study on sole depth relating to environmental factors also makes for interesting reading, although not specifically relating to shoes.

Anyway, this is my opinion, based on a lot of study & experience. It is obviously quite different to your opinion, hopefully based on same:wink:. Not asking for anyone to just believe me because I said or anything. I think it's important for people to educate themselves & then come to their own well reasoned opinions... and remain open minded about alternative opinions & info, that's all. I too agree that it's important to consider valid studies done, not just anything you may read on the net or elsewhere. But I don't just discount the 'biassed' information, from whatever persuasion out of hand either. Absence of 'scientific proof' is not the same as proof of absence and there definitely needs to be more *good* scientific studies done on the subject.



> This is an interesting thread as I am getting front shoes on Hunter today for the first time (he is 3). A lot of the trails we ride are quite rocky and he has a very hard time on them,


Again, do your homework, don't just go off opinions(even mine!:lol & make whatever informed decisions you think best. Be sure to weigh up the cons of shoeing, bare, etc, not just the pros. According to studies done by Bowker(& I think Ovnicek but don't quote me), immature horses(that's feral as well, not just domestics) don't *begin* to develop caudal hoof strength until around 4yo. So I'd personally not be considering shoeing the horse at least until maturity. I'd also be protecting his feet - that's frogs & soles, not just walls, on rough ground until such time they may be strong enough. Not that I'd be doing much riding of a 3yo at all anyway.



> Loosie, I realize you are of the theory that ALL horses can and should be barefoot.
> 
> What is your thought on a horse that is not sound barefoot and the owner wants to do a sport that does not allow hoof boots?
> Or what about the horse that is not even pasture sound barefoot? We all know that living in a foot encapsulating boot 24/7 is not a good idea (per the manufacturers).


I'm not of that 'theory' at all actually. Just don't think metal rims are generally the the best option, or *necessary* *for the sake of the horse*. I think they are best left as the last option, rather than being the first/common choice, because of the inherent probs with them. 

Of course, as per the scenario of wanting to compete in sports that don't allow boots, not everyone has the same priorities. There are other (& IMO slightly better) alternatives there too tho, such as laser tips or plastic shoes for eg.

As for horses that aren't paddock sound, in some cases, full time(or close) booting is indeed an option, altho leaving them in boots without respite is not good(but then, neither is keeping a horse shod conventionally without respite). Horses that need this extreme often only need it short term too, if management is good. If there is a good chance of rehabbing the horse, this is helpful. But I think it's important to weigh up quantity v's quality too tho, & for eg. a horse that is too severely damaged or considered too old to be rehabbed or such may well be better off with the palliative measure of conventional shoes.



> Oh....gosh.... the wild horses can do it why can't mine, theory.
> 
> Do you realize how much shorter the life span of a wild horse is?
> Do you realize that horses in the wild die a horrible and cruel death if they go lame?
> ...


​
That sounds rather patronising to me, tho I don't believe you meant it that way.

Yes, feral horses *that live in harsh, dry environments* are not the same as the average domestic. For that reason I too think it's unrealistic to expect our horses to generally be able to 'do' what these horses do bare. Yes, I believe genetics definitely do play a part in some horses/breeds(Eg studies suggest arabs, standies & drafts generally innately have a better developed hoof. _Some_ QH's may be bred with bad feet, etc). But generally speaking, I don't believe in the theory that 'we've bred the feet of our horses'. As pointed out by WildAcres, I believe it is far & away more a case of 'nurture' over 'nature' IMO. As for life spans, I think that's largely due to other factors, but it also depends on their environment actually and many wild & feral horses survive perfectly sound into their 30s.... unlike most domestics who commonly suffer chronic foot probs early in life.



> Originally Posted by *WildAcreFarms*
> _i don't understand why natural hoof trimmers and farriers are at such odds with each other?!? Were ALL IN THE SAME camp and we all want whats best for our horses. why can't we all work together towards those ends?
> 
> _
> Because there are many people on the one side who insist that it is an all or nothing issue.


Agreed. There are fanatics on either side of the fence.... & there are also differences of opinions among the objective views too. I also find that just because I'm of the 'barefoot persuasion' a lot of 'shoe persuasion' people just assume I'm a fanatic & so shutters go down, they assume a lot about me & oppose whatever I say too. But it's not always like that, whatever the 'side of the fence' either & I've actually worked closely with a couple of very good farriers.



> We (general population we) breed for things other than good feet.
> 
> We have the ability to have a horse that can work when it has bad feet so no reason to worry about making horses with good feet.


As I've said, I don't believe the 'breed over deed' theory is generally valid. But your second point is extremely relevant IMO. IME it is environmental factors that are the huge difference, and metal rims are one of them, that allow us to work horses regardless of hoof health(to a large degree). The study cited by bubba(tho someone got the name wrong - it's Brian Hampstead) is but one of many examples why I think it's nurture over nature. There is no one model of wild hoof, despite what some say & just because they're wild(& supposedly therefore bred for the 'fittest') doesn't mean they necessarily have healthy feet. Pull a 'perfect' hoofed animal out of that perfect environment & watch his feet suffer. Likewise, put a 'normal' hoofed beast into a perfect environment & his feet will adapt for the better.

Anyway, that's where I'm coming from. If anyone has good studies that dispute my above opinions, I'm more than happy to hear of them, as there is always more to learn. But perhaps, for the sake of OP(unless you want this continued here?) it should be private or in another thread?

Cheers respectfully to all!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

The horses of today, and this includes the feral ones, are NOT the same animal as was ridden by humans thousands of years ago. we have bred the "good" hoof out of most of them. They can't tolerate being barefoot (I mean many horses, not all by any means) becuase they dont' have nearly as sturdy a hoof as their predessesor and they are much, much bigger than they were thousands of years ago, even though ridden by man.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> The horses of today, and this includes the feral ones, are NOT the same animal as was ridden by humans thousands of years ago. we have bred the "good" hoof out of most of them.


Where's the evidence of that assumption??


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

To the OP: When paying for a "certified natural barefoot trimmer," a lot of what you're paying for is hype. I agree that if your horses can go barefoot, it's perfectly fine for them and certainly easier on your pocketbook....if you use a regular farrier. A competent, well-trained farrier does the same (or just as good) a trim as the "natural" people, generally for a lot less money, because he's more realistic about the value of his work.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Giant picture alert!

Truly wild horses in close-to-natural living conditions (reintroduced to Mongolian plains as a wild herd):










Note the chipped hooves and long toes.

Wild horses (Przewalskis) are about 13 hands tall. Wild equines in general are short (asses, zebras).

Our domestic horses:


















Not really a whole lot of comparison, is there?

And then take domestic horses and make them feral, with natural selection acting over several generations, and you get the mangy, rangey Mustang and Brumby (also small):


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

bubba13 said:


> To the OP: When paying for a "certified natural barefoot trimmer," a lot of what you're paying for is hype. I agree that if your horses can go barefoot, it's perfectly fine for them and certainly easier on your pocketbook....if you use a regular farrier. A competent, well-trained farrier does the same (or just as good) a trim as the "natural" people, generally for a lot less money, because he's more realistic about the value of his work.


I agree that depending on who you get, a 'barefoot trimmer' *may well* be more 'hype' than worth. I also agree that a *good* farrier should do a similar/same job as a *good* 'barefooter'. But please don't tar us all with the same brush. 

I have personally put in a lot of time & money to extensive study, as no doubt most good farriers(& many bad, so they're quick to tell me:lol have too. I also charge the same or even less as many farriers do for a trim(not because I don't value my work but because I'm in it for the horse & if the owner can't afford or justify getting me back...), and quite a bit cheaper than paying for shoes. I generally spend a lot longer on each job too, because I evaluate a lot of different factors aside from just feet, and I also spend time explaining & giving clients as much(often more!) info as they want, including sources of alternatives to what I can offer or opine.

BTW re the pretty pics, the the mongolian one was too big to work for me. I'll see if I can dig out one of mine for others whomay like to see a mongolian horse in it's natural environ.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Loosie, its very obvious you studied up on this. I honestly think everyone here has a valid point. Again, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Barefoot is best! No doubt. But when it comes to a horse that absolutely needs correction in some way,, the farrier will only "suggest" what should be done. I believe if an owner reads up on all options of corrective shoeing/trimming, it is ultimately the owners choice. 

To the OP, everything you have read here so far is opinions. Your job is to now do research and form your own conclusion. Whatever you decide, talk to your farrier and go from there. Just so you understand, there are a lot of people here that are passionate about their beliefs and so you will always get controversy. We don't hate each other. I think everything you get on threads like this are fascinating and educational. Good luck with your decision.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mlkarel2010 (Jan 27, 2008)

bubba13 said:


> To the OP: When paying for a "certified natural barefoot trimmer," a lot of what you're paying for is hype. I agree that if your horses can go barefoot, it's perfectly fine for them and certainly easier on your pocketbook....if you use a regular farrier. A competent, well-trained farrier does the same (or just as good) a trim as the "natural" people, generally for a lot less money, because he's more realistic about the value of his work.


Agreed that a lot of the pay is just along with the name. It depends on the farrier though, so I'd ask about how they trim. For example, my farrier trims exactly the same as if he were putting the shoe on, which isn't the same way you would trim if you are going for barefoot.

Also, I don't think if you're going barefoot you should almost ever use the rasp on any part of the hoof wall except the very bottom. It weakens the natural structure of the hoof (of course there are times when this is needed to regain the proper hoof shape). So, yes you can have a farrier do it, but make sure you know HOW he'll be doing it.

Definitely just do a lot of research on the barefoot trim and how it's done. Also, knowing the differences between the barefoot trim and the standard pre-shoe trim is very useful. 

Hoof shape

That's one site I really liked for researching about the trim. There are a lot more. Take advantage of google, that's all I can say really.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

mlkarel2010 said:


> should almost ever use the rasp on any part of the hoof wall except the very bottom. It weakens the natural structure


Depends what you mean by 'very bottom':wink:, but it's usually very important to round off the edges of the walls('mustang roll') and if the walls are 'stretched' or flared it is also *generally* a good idea IMO to back up/bevel that area. There's actually less stress on the 'structure' then & it's under more undue strain if you leave it(partly why they chip). But IMO there are lots of guidelines & precious few - if any - hard & fast rules. There are also differences of opinion among the barefooters & among the farriers, aside from the 'barefoot v's farrier' 'debates'.


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## mlkarel2010 (Jan 27, 2008)

loosie said:


> Depends what you mean by 'very bottom':wink:, but it's usually very important to round off the edges of the walls('mustang roll') and if the walls are 'stretched' or flared it is also *generally* a good idea IMO to back up/bevel that area. There's actually less stress on the 'structure' then & it's under more undue strain if you leave it(partly why they chip). But IMO there are lots of guidelines & precious few - if any - hard & fast rules. There are also differences of opinion among the barefooters & among the farriers, aside from the 'barefoot v's farrier' 'debates'.


The mustang roll was included in my, not so well-phrased "very bottom" I meant the rest of the hoof wall that isn't coming into contact with the ground. Yeah, the exact way to explain it / terminology has completely left me... But yes, I totally agree with what you said about all the back-up/beveling, etc.

And I agree there are a lot of different opinions. Even between fellow barefooters, so yeah, lots of research is key


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## totalfreedom (Nov 23, 2009)

Loosie -

Thank you for still being here and trudging through the guff that we barefooters tend to run into in the horse community. I haven't seen barefoothooves login for a LONG time and I'm wondering if she decided to leave after being spat upon so many times while trying to spread education. So I truly am humble and have a warm heart for you to still see you helping the few people on here asking about barefoot. I am ready to delete my account if it's possible cus I get tired of seeing the people on here trying to do the natural thing for their horses get so much flack.

I mean, someone can tell me that anything from mcdonalds is healthy till they're blue in the face. But I know the truth. Same with horse's hooves. I know what's healthier, I've experienced both.


KatieQ - 

I really don't have much to add that probably hasn't been said already. Get educated, check out Pete Ramey's website. Pete Ramey hoof care heals founder in horse’s navicular disease farrier Then if possible get a rasp and some cadaver hooves and begin to practice. I wasn't able to do that so I studied and studied and studied before I ever put rasp to hoof.

Nutrition is HUGE. Katy Watts | Safergrass.org This is a great website to begin learning. There's a study called pottengers cats that shows how physical degeneration happens when the diet is crap. And I'm sure most aren't feeding their horses cooked food, but the same principals apply in a way. When you/we/anything eats something that's not designed for that body it gets sick. Cancer anyone? I got rid of allergies I was born with by eating properly and cleansing my body through fasting. I have a post on somewhere on these forums about it.

Movement is also huge. You can have very nicely trimmed barefoot hooves. But without proper stimulation there's not much gonna happen. Heel first landings are crucial to develop the hoof. This is accomplished through trimming and if needed hoof boots with pads. Eventually you can do away with the boots and pads as the hooves develop into rock crunchers.


Also, someone mentioned that the peripheral loading thing with shoes causing stress was BS. There's a video on youtube that shows the difference between a shod horse and a barefoot horse. I would link the video but I lost the link. A simple analogy would be to compare a dirt bike jumper with shocks to absorb the landing compared to one without shocks. HUGE difference. One of em is gonna get hurt, BAD.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

totalfreedom said:


> Also, someone mentioned that the peripheral loading thing with shoes causing stress was BS.


Thanks for the nice post totalfreedom! I only waste my time here for the love of - & wanting to help out horses & by default:lol: their people. I would also (again) caution anyone from taking anyone else's word for anything blindly, especially on a forum or such, regardless of what they/we say. People, do your homework & make whatever *informed* decisions you think best at the time! 

As for your quote above... I think I missed that comment! To the person that wrote it, happy to learn of any good science to back up that opinion. In the meantime, yet another study(very recent) to look into in this regard is Duncan McLaughlin's thermographic study of shod vs bare endurance horses.


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## KatieQ (Apr 4, 2011)

Wow, I had no idea that this was such a contraversial topic! I have had horses in the past that went barefoot and had no problem- they were just blessed with really good feet I guess. I am definitely going to research this more, because I do believe that like everything else, their diet plays a factor in hoof health and development. My horse is young so I am hoping that by learning about this now I can optimize his chances of growing up with good strong feet, and better health overall.


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## Anvil (Feb 21, 2009)

I think if we all are honest with our selves there is not a one way or style of trimming that works for all horses in (barefoot trims) or (shoeing).

I don't want the barefoot trimmers to feel like they are being attacked on here, I believe we as hoof care people, can learn from each other if we want to and be open minded.

I have been working with horses feet since I was a kid, trimming n shoeing for the public going on 14 years and have seen a lot of trimming and shoeing styles. Some stay around and are very good and some fade away as fast as the people that try to make a big impression on every one.
As every one knows there is a difference between every one out there, be it a barefoot trimmer or a farrier.
My favorite motto. (k.i.s.) (keep it simple). Don't over think a foot, learn how each indivual horse's foot and leg work together. 
Sometimes I think to much technology and to much thinking hinders us as humans from keeping a sound and healthy horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Anvil said:


> I think if we all are honest with our selves there is not a one way or style of trimming that works for all horses in (barefoot trims) or (shoeing).


Exactly!!!!


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## bntnail (Feb 3, 2011)

loosie said:


> stuff deleted
> 
> I would also (again) caution anyone from taking anyone else's word for anything blindly,.........'
> 
> ...


I like how they refer to the study as a "white paper". For those that don't know what that is, look it up on wikipedia.

I'm also confused now as well. This study seems to refute the findings of previous barefoot studies as far as increase/decrease of temps in shod/bare hooves. Dr Pollit also did a temp study w/ sensors imbeded in the hoof and concluded temp. swings/variations of @ 20 deg to be normal.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Anvil said:


> I think if we all are honest with our selves there is not a one way or style of trimming that works for all horses in (barefoot trims) or (shoeing).


Agree wholeheartedly:wink:. Just that I believe metal rims, due to their inherant nature, are rarely the best answer *for the sake of the horse*(as opposed to our wants).



> I don't want the barefoot trimmers to feel like they are being attacked on here, I believe we as hoof care people, can learn from each other if we want to and be open minded.


Agreed. I don't think whether or not we agree is really the point IMO. We can still disagree but be open minded to considering alternate points & be as respectful & objective as possible in our disagreement, in order to help others be objective in their decisions & further analyse our own.



> Sometimes I think to much technology and to much thinking hinders us as humans from keeping a sound and healthy horse.


Now that bit I don't agree with:wink: But I do think too much 'technology', as well as 'tradition' is taken & run with, with too little rational thought, or knowledge of all the relevant factors that need to be considered.



> I'm also confused now as well. This study seems to refute the findings of previous barefoot studies as far as increase/decrease of temps in shod/bare hooves. Dr Pollit also did a temp study w/ sensors imbeded in the hoof and concluded temp. swings/variations of @ 20 deg to be normal.


Yeah, I thought that too, although do you think I can find the file I had on Pollitt's study.. or even a link? I think the difference may be to do with Pollitt using horses at rest whereas McLaughlin used horses immediately post endurance races. Also hoof length was a big factor in McLaughlin's results. But if you could possibly direct me again to Pollitt's study?? 

Can't remember if it's been mentioned already, but there's another interesting paper on sole depth & loading by Brian Hampstead, which includes feral horses from a range of environments and also 'managed' thoroughbreds. IMO the good research available is but the tip of the iceberg - so much more needs to be done.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

loosie said:


> Just that I believe metal rims, due to their inherant nature, are rarely the best answer *for the sake of the horse*(as opposed to our wants).


So in your world, if the horse can not do its job (required fitness training and showing for example) barefoot then it is wrong of us to use the horse for that purpose?
Why is it OK if whatever you want to do with the horse allows you to slap a rubber contraption on their foot (aka boots)?


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

> Go easy on the kool-aid, the sugar isn't good for you


 LOL this was cute...

I agree 100% with bntnail's response.


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## highlander (Oct 26, 2008)

I have a barefoot tb who's not really taken to it too well. We have a lot of mud here and wet conditions as we're in the highlands of scotland. I tried a supplement called kergurd (german supplement for hoof and coat), I don't honestly think it made much of a difference to her feet. I use cornacrestant on her feet as well, some supplements are useless and its so hard to spot those 1s! I have however found that dengie hoof and coat supplement fantastic so....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Alwaysbehind said:


> So in your world, if the horse can not do its job (required fitness training and showing for example) barefoot then it is wrong of us to use the horse for that purpose?
> Why is it OK if whatever you want to do with the horse allows you to slap a rubber contraption on their foot (aka boots)?


Yes. 'In my world' I do personally have a problem with shoeing horses in order to allow them to do something that would otherwise hurt them or regardless of damage done. In the same manner, I also personally think it's wrong to force a child into similar situations. **I do realise that not everyone has the same priorities & that I'm generalising, but if you read what I've read previously I think I've explained that already.

Why is it ok to 'slap rubber contraptions' on instead? Because they don't effect the function of the hoof negatively. Because they provide protection & support to the base of the hoof, unlike a metal rim. Because they're not metal & have capacity for energy dissipation. Because they're not nailed permanently to the hoof, but are removed where & when they're not necessary. 

I wonder, with your questions above, I have to ask, do you ever feel it's OK to 'slap rubber contraptions' on your own feet, or do you think it's best to only go bare or wear metal rims?? What are your reasons for your opinions on that? **Of course, to literally consider that is quite... 'out there' but the similarities make these analogy worth thinking about IMO


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I've actually heard quite a few references to why people are healthier/ better/ more comfortable barefoot, rather than wearing shoes, actually. Apparently it's a whole movement from several different camps now.

If a horse is wearing shoes and staying sound--as most do--how are the shoes negatively affecting it?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

highlander said:


> I have a barefoot tb who's not really taken to it too well. We have a lot of mud here and wet conditions as we're in the highlands of scotland. I tried a supplement called kergurd (german supplement for hoof and coat), I don't honestly think it made much of a difference to her feet. I use cornacrestant on her feet as well, some supplements are useless and its so hard to spot those 1s! I have however found that dengie hoof and coat supplement fantastic so....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hi,

Yes, nutrition is important. Horses are often deficient/imbalanced in a range of nutrients(as we are) and this can effect them(not just hooves) negatively. Therefore a good quality complete supp, or doing a diet analysis to ensure you provide what is needed is definitely a good idea. 

But nutrition is not the only factor that effects hooves by far. Diet is a big one for eg....


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

bubba13 said:


> If a horse is wearing shoes and staying sound--as most do--how are the shoes negatively affecting it?


Is the horse really 'staying sound' or is it just the effects of reduced circulation causing a reduction in feeling?? Just because the horse can't feel(a lot of) the damage done does that mean there're no negative effects? 

To those that dispute the above, I'm all ears for valid reasons why that may not be the case(I only want the best for the horses in my care & to make rational, fully considered choices), just yet to hear any. Only hear of more & more science showing the negative effects. One of the biggest IMO is peripheral loading the walls.


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## bntnail (Feb 3, 2011)

loosie said:


> Is the horse really 'staying sound' or is it just the effects of reduced circulation causing a reduction in feeling?? Just because the horse can't feel(a lot of) the damage done does that mean there're no negative effects?


Everything has negative effects, even barefoot.



> To those that dispute the above, I'm all ears for valid reasons why that may not be the case(I only want the best for the horses in my care & to make rational, fully considered choices), just yet to hear any. Only hear of more & more science showing the negative effects. One of the biggest IMO is peripheral loading the walls.


Not all applied metal causes peripheral loading. Not all science is true science. Most studies are biased. Good shoers can keep horses sound and w/ healthy feet as can good barefooters. It's unfortunate that we have come to a point where we now have terms such as "feriphobic". Whats next, "hoof condoms"?:?


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

loosie said:


> Is the horse really 'staying sound' or is it just the effects of reduced circulation causing a reduction in feeling?? Just because the horse can't feel(a lot of) the damage done does that mean there're no negative effects?



Oh dear Gawd, my respect just left and slammed the door on its way out. 

You have a lot of knowledge to offer, but when you say this type of thing, you are certainly losing me and I assume others. And in such I turn my back on your ideas. 

This is frankly cookoo, my horse feels his hoof and he has been shod all around for his entire life. 

Sane arguments are the best way to go.


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## totalfreedom (Nov 23, 2009)

loosie - Please refer to my earlier post. :wink:

KatieQ - I'm sorry, but I'm gonna also add to the hijacking of this thread into the debate it's become. I just can't bite my tongue no longer. Please refer to my quote below, the "paraphrasing" one. So again, I apologize.



Well. Here's a simple test to see that if you cut off circulation then your hand will go tingly and numb. Put a tight string or tight band around your wrist. One that's tight enough it'll cut off circulation. Your hand will go numb. You can still feel a little bit with it, but not nearly as much. But still yet it's, for the most part, numb. 

Now after trying this little experiment, check out this picture.










This is a thermograph of the blood circulation in the legs and hooves
of a horse wearing one nailed-on metal shoe, on the front right.
The other three hooves are barefoot.
The rest is between you and your horse.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Works _that_ fast, huh? Wow. Guess as soon as you nail a shoe on it's game over, no point in even trying. The whole leg is dying and necrotic and gangrenous, from the looks of things.

Good news is that if a shod horse gets navicular, he won't notice or feel it....


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

My goodness, I never thought I would see such madness. How does my horse pick up his feet when I touch his hoof, not his leg, but a one tap with my finger on his hoof? How does he feel an abscess?


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## KatieQ (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm sorry but you've all lost me... I can't figure out who is arguing for what anymore! I will have to go back and re-read this whole thread, but I am appreciating all the input- I have a lot to think about here (and thankfully a lot of time to think about it). I'm trying to make the most informed decision I can for my horses' sake (and my own)-I am starting to feel guilty about even having a horse again- we shouldn't be riding them at all!


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Katie, don't feel like that because of our bickering, if that is how you feel I am sorry for my part in that.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I love it how barefoot is always questioned, always doubted - but when the same is done with shoes, we are called kool aid drinkers, told we have lost all respect, etc. 

Loosie always posts diplomatically, trying to help people and not alienate them, and definitely has knowledge and research to back her up. Those responding to such well thought out and deliberately non offensive posts with anything but, are the ones who I know have lost my respect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anvil (Feb 21, 2009)

bntnail said:


> Everything has negative effects, even barefoot.
> 
> 
> 
> Not all applied metal causes peripheral loading. Not all science is true science. Most studies are biased. Good shoers can keep horses sound and w/ healthy feet as can good barefooters. It's unfortunate that we have come to a point where we now have terms such as "feriphobic". Whats next, "hoof condoms"?:?


Agree with bntnail.

Hoof condoms !!!! **** !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

loosie said:


> Is the horse really 'staying sound' or is it just the effects of reduced circulation causing a reduction in feeling?? Just because the horse can't feel(a lot of) the damage done does that mean there're no negative effects?


Funny, if the horse can not feel anything then how come shod horses come up lame from things like stone bruises and such just like un shod horses? Do those nerves suddenly regenerate when damage occurs?



loosie said:


> Only hear of more & more science showing the negative effects. One of the biggest IMO is peripheral loading the walls.


Yes, because going la la la with your fingers in ears does make it hard to hear anything outside the circle of what you want to hear.



bntnail said:


> Everything has negative effects, even barefoot.


Too bad some people are too stubborn to realize this.



bubba13 said:


> Good news is that if a shod horse gets navicular, he won't notice or feel it....


Good point.

Now I just do not get how my horse ended up lame with his collateral ligament lesion. With Loosie's theory being in affect, my horse should not have been able to feel that lesion. 



wild_spot said:


> I love it how barefoot is always questioned, always doubted - but when the same is done with shoes, we are called kool aid drinkers, told we have lost all respect, etc.


What is questioned is the all or nothing theory that so many barefoot people profess.
It is not that anyone thinks barefoot is bad. 
I certainly do not think it is. Right now I have three barefoot horses. 
Two of which will stay barefoot.
The third, the retired horse (so I am not putting his shoes on to torture him into doing work or anything), will get his shoes back on as soon as the ground gets too hard in the late spring. No matter what we try he just can not do it. I suppose I could watch him hobble around all summer long and proclaim it the transition period. I did that once. Once was enough. It was cruel and I am not going to do it again.
Oh, and for the record, said retired horse, with shoes on, still bobbles when he steps on a rock that is big/pointy enough to reach his sole when he has shoes on. So much for the amazing numbing affects of the shoes.

On the topic of shoes doing damage to the foot. MFM came to me with four shoes. Her previous owner had her shod all around right after she bought her and kept her shod all around for the full time she owned her (not just shoes, but shoes with borium, gasp). I promptly pulled the shoes and MFM is perfectly sound barefoot. She is gravel driveway trotting sound. No horrible hoof damage caused by the shoes. When I did my PPE the vet and my farrier said she has some of the nicest frogs they have ever seen. Darn those shoes did not manage to ruin them either.


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## totalfreedom (Nov 23, 2009)

No one ever said that the hoof would have a total loss of feeling by having it shod.

With the experiment I mentioned.... I was only trying to show how we can also experience what it's like when there's less circulation to an area of our body. It feels tingly and numb. And also I suppose I should of chose my wording more carefully. To me numb is a feeling that isn't what we would normally feel. Actually I'm gonna go grab a definition............... "Deprived of the power to feel or move normally". And I can really see now that I should of chose my wording more carefully cus the word numb has many definitions. So I suppose that's my fault. But why are you all so quick to attack when all we're doing is showing some stuff that happens to hoof function when a horse is shod.

If you are a pro shod advocate and don't agree with barefoot or some of the science behind it then why come into a thread that is to specifically discuss barefoot?

But in my post with the picture I said, " You can still feel a little bit with it, but not nearly as much." I never said anything about a total loss of feeling. Of course if anyone tries that experiment and then takes a hammer and smashes a finger with it they're gonna feel pain. But there is still a numbing sensation.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

totalfreedom said:


> If you are a pro shod advocate and don't agree with barefoot or some of the science behind it then why come into a thread that is to specifically discuss barefoot?


That is where you are making huge assumptions. I am not pro shod. I am not pro barefoot. I am pro whatever a specific horse needs. Period.

There is no one size fits all answer to hooves. No matter how much barefooters want to insist all feet fit into the same boot.

As I already said, I prefer my horses barefoot. I just do not believe that all horses can be barefoot.


Using your rubber band theory is interesting but lets think about it for a second.
Putting a rubber band around your finger makes the part from the rubber band on go numb. It does not make your whole hand go numb. 
You are trying to equate something on a hoof making a whole leg go numb. That is like saying the rubber band on your finger tip will make your whole arm go numb. The rest of your arm works fine, your hand works fine.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Some horses _need_ to be barefoot.
Some horses _do better_ barefoot.
Some horses _are fine_ either way.
Some horses _do better_ shod.
Some horses _need_ to be shod.

And that's it in a nutshell. I rely on why my horse, vet, and farrier tell me when choosing the best option for the individual animal.

If your horse is sound and working well, then obviously whatever you're doing is working....


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## totalfreedom (Nov 23, 2009)

Yeah I'm aware of the band on finger not making your whole arm go numb. I wasn't trying to imply that's what would happen. The only reason why I mentioned the band on limb thing is cus it can show how cutting off circulation to a limb causes it to lose some feeling. And I wasn't responding to anyone in particular with that post with the picture. I just saw someone , " I don't even know who", mentioned something about calling BS to something loosie said. Or something to that effect. And I was just responding so that the group could benefit in knowledge. I wasn't trying to target anyone. So if it felt like I targeted anyone, I apologize, that wasn't my intention. It's kinda difficult to convey a message using a limited amount of words typing. It's much easier to speak and have a conversation for me.

But my analogy is like comparing apples to oranges. I'm aware of that.

But still yet. The picture does show how there's a reduction of circulation going to the hoof that's been shod.

And I'm not trying to tell anyone that all horses must be barefoot. In the end it's up to the owner to make the call on what they feel is best. I was just trying to show a picture that proved there is a reduction of circulation when a horse is shod.

Alwaysbehind - I'm not trying to assume that you're pro this nor pro that. I was just trying to say, this thread was originally started to ask about barefoot. KatieQ wasn't asking about barefoot vs shod, she was asking specifically about barefoot. So I don't see why we're debating the barefoot vs shod in a thread specifically asking about barefoot.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

bubba13 said:


> Some horses _need_ to be barefoot.
> Some horses _do better_ barefoot.
> Some horses _are fine_ either way.
> Some horses _do better_ shod.
> ...


:thumbsup::clap::thumbsup:

Yes! Exactly!


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Agreed!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CecilliaB (Jan 21, 2010)

I don't get why there is an argument. Some horses need shoes and some don't. If Aidan had had shoes maybe he wouldn't of broken his coffin bone which is why he will be in shoes the rest of his life. He has a birth defect(we found from the scans to diagnose the break) that weakens the side of his coffin bone. This doesn't mean I will be putting shoes on my filly. I really hope she can be barefoot 


file_3 by Cecillia B Photography, on Flickr


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

As was stated by Anvil previously, some horses could die without shoes. Meaning Cecillia, you probably would have to had put this horse down without having shoes as a last resort.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bntnail (Feb 3, 2011)

totalfreedom said:


> Now after trying this little experiment, check out this picture.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love how this picture is passed around as proof that shoes cause consriction of the hoof.

It is an excellent thermographic example of Sympathetic Nerve Dysfunction.

Google equine thermographic images and you can find plenty of pics w/ shoes on that also have good/normal circulation.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Well whaddaya know.... Thermal Consultancy - Veterinary/Medical


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Very cool. Thanks Bntnail.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Why is it wrong to want the best for our horses? I agree with Loosie, I believe that NO horse needs metal rims for health reasons. Better results can be acheived with other options. All the research I have done (and anyone who knows me knows I do a LOT) has simply confirmed this for me. As with Loosie, when someone shows me studies, or proof of the amazing success of shod rehab like I have seen with barefoot rehab, then I will gladly reconsider my opinion. 

I don't think anybody as said NO horse needs extra protection. Not one. Show me were it is written that every horse should have nothing on their feet and I will eat my words. It's just that I believe in better ways of supporting/protecting the hoof - ways that encourage the horses hoof to return to normal function. 

I think it is a sad reflection on some people that they can't accept some have different views without ridicule. 

If someone could show me a shod horse whose frog is in contact with the ground as it should be, then please do. If someone could link a study to show that shoes actually allow the frog, the sole, the digital cushion to ALL share the loading with the walls and absorb the concussion of movement, then please do!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AlexS said:


> Oh dear Gawd, my respect just left and slammed the door on its way out. ...This is frankly cookoo, my horse feels his hoof and he has been shod all around for his entire life.


Mate, please read what I wrote at least before having a go. I said 'reduction' in feeling, not that a shod horse loses all feeling. That was purely your assumption. I was also asking questions. 

The reduction in circulation is a given(eg. compression of the coronary artery & also the circumflex artery being squeezed under P3), but I don't pretend to know just how much it reduces feeling. Given that shod horses can blunder over rocks etc without obviously feeling, I'm guessing there's a fair degree tho. But as you obviously think that's 'cuckoo', as asked, please give *reasons* for your 'disrespect' of those ideas. IOW, you're welcome to your opinions, but how about some of those 'sane arguments' you mentioned were a good idea?? 

Perhaps for eg you can give an alternative valid reason for horses able to blunder over rough ground without protection or obvious sensitivity? I'm not saying there isn't one, but it's been asked ad nauseum & despite people like yourself being willing to blow off the idea of reduced feeling, I'm yet to hear of a good reason for your opinions.



> Good news is that if a shod horse gets navicular, he won't notice or feel it....





> ...How does he feel an abscess?


Ignoring the apparently similar assumptions in the above posts, I don't get the first comment, as it is indeed shoes(& then pads, wedges, etc...) that are recognised as effective palliative measures for 'navicular'. So what are you getting at Bubba?? With regard to abscesses, why is it so common for shod horses to suffer abscesses? Could it be because they bruise their thin, unprotected soles & heels on rocks, etc because they don't move more carefully over them?


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## totalfreedom (Nov 23, 2009)

Perhaps we need to have the title of this thread changed to, "Barefoot vs Shod Round Two".

Then maybe KatieQ can ask her questions again in peace without another debate ensuing.

I googled equine thermographic images. Then I modified it and searched with the word shod. I couldn't find what bntnail was talking about. But I did find this.










Back feet are unshod. Front feet are shod.

The Effects of Shoeing? 
These images belong to the same horse and have been captured on the same temperature settings.
The only difference is that the fronts are shod and might indicate a lesser blood supply when compared to the unshod hinds.
 Look at the variations as shown at the coronet band and the comparative differences.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

It seems the biggest unfounded assumptions & statements are being made(often rudely) by people who claim to be so objective about their opinions! Always Behind especially, as I've said, I'm more than happy to have a logical discussion, but apart from being obnoxious about it, you're obviously doing your 'la la' trick about what's been said & just assuming what you want to believe about what has actually been said. I can't be bothered if there's no rationality involved in your statements.



> And that's it in a nutshell. I rely on why my horse, vet, and farrier tell me when choosing the best option for the individual animal.


Again, do you have reasons or is it just blind faith?


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Results. The education, accreditation, and continuing education of the professionals I use. Their willingness to consult and consider alternative viewpoints. My personal experience with my own horses, and watching my vet and farrier fix other horses.

I've seen them, on multiple occasions, take chronically foundered horses with horrific X-rays and coffin bones bulging through the sole, shoe them appropriately, and return them to soundness--this after other vets and hoofcare experts had said that there was no option beyond euthanasia.

I've seen firsthand the effects of bad shoeing--crippled horses, bad trimming--crippled horses, and "natural/wild" wear and tear--crippled horses. And yet I've ridden numerous horses from each of the three above categories (only minus the "bad" part), who were and stayed perfectly sound, athletic, and useable. They had no lameness problems; no issues that showed up on radiographs, or ultrasound, or MRI. And this, of course, includes the ones shod their entire lives.

I have read studies--but cannot produce them on the spot, unfortunately--showing that the often-touted "detriments" of _good_ shoeing are often the result of researcher bias. And the same for the "obvious benefits" of horses living in the wild, as in that article I posted a while back about those chronically-laminitic feral (natural, free-ranging) ponies.

I've given barefoot a fair shake. It worked wonders on my little mare. Her hooves were always falling apart and she couldn't hold shoes. She's a whole new horse with barefoot--her hoof wall is unbelieveably thicker and stronger. Tried it with my caudal heel pain gelding. No results whatsoever. If anything, his soles became thinner and his heels became more contracted, but he never got a lick sounder or lamer, no matter how he was trimmed or shod. Tried it with my barrel mare with the soft tissue problems, and her feet crumbled. She was consistently very sore after conservative trims, and her heels dropped so low that she further stretched and damaged her injured tendons. Put wedged shoes back on her, and had an immediate improvement. After her MRI, the lameness vets (some of the best in the country) advised that she never go without at least a 2-degree wedge shoe, lest she hurt herself again.


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## Anvil (Feb 21, 2009)

I don't know why the die hard barefoot people think they have to keep proving their points to make them feel better.

When the people that are nuteral and open minded prefer barefooted but also have no problem shoeing a horse when they feel it is needed.

As most of you people on here know I do both and what I see and have experienced is, with most horses, they can function properly both ways.

But I do have situations where a horse absolutely needs to have shoes or it would be sent to the glue factory.

l have not heard anyone that has shoes on their horses say they would not go barefoot at all if they could.

Information on who ever mentioned about the frog not having any contact with the ground;

A properly trimmed hoof with shoes, if you look at the tracks, you can clearly see where the frog actually does touch the ground.

Oh and another thing mentioned was, why a horse with shoes still gets an abcess, something I never see happening in the horses I take care of.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

> Perhaps for eg you can give an alternative valid reason for horses able to blunder over rough ground without protection or obvious sensitivity?


The metal rim is able to raise the more sensitive structures enough out of the way of the smaller rocks that they are not severely affected by them. If we hit a big rock, my shod horses will bobble and flinch. Or if they land just the wrong way on a pebble. But they are able to travel over rougher, more gravelly terrain than my barefoot mare due to the very protection provided by the shoe.

If the soles were tingly and numb, why would thin- or sensitive-soled horses need hoof pads underneath the shoe to protect them from rocks?


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Anvil said:


> Oh and another thing mentioned was, why a horse with shoes still gets an abcess, something I never see happening in the horses I take care of.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Same here. I've had two hoof abscesses in my shod horses in the past nine years. That's with owning up to six shod horses at a time, and riding them fairly hard and on varying terrain. And one of those occured at a boarding facility known for its awful rocks, and started with a stone bruise. The other one is a mystery....

However, I've seen many barefoot horses with bad abscesses--some from bruising and some from laminitis. Not saying that the barefoot caused it, because they weren't all being trimmed appropriately, although some of them were. And some were chronic about those abscesses, and frequently lame from bruising, even on fairly even, smooth terrain.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I have never had an access in 12+ years of owning horses. I don't think that has much to do with shoes or barefoot, personally. For me it's either good luck or good management. 

Anvil and Bubba - two conflicting statements - does the shoe allow the frog and/or sole to contact the ground every stride (as it should) or does it lift these structures off the ground? 

I have only seen shod hoofprints showing the frog indent on quite soft/deep ground - not on hard ground where it is even more important? Happy to be corrected.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Not sure our statements are all that conflicting--most of the time when I've seen a horse act tender on rocks, it's because his sole got bumped, not his frog.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Anvil said:


> Oh and another thing mentioned was, why a horse with shoes still gets an abcess, something I never see happening in the horses I take care of.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That was me, I asked that as Loosie said that horses that are shod do not feel their hooves. 

My horse abscessed 3 times this past (I think) Nov. It was an abscess I saw it being drained each time. 

He is shod all around, I am not against barefoot, well maybe that's not entirely true, I have always shod all 4 feet, but if I had a horse happy without I would not waste my money. I tried barefoot with my guy for 18 weeks he was due for his 3rd trim when I called a farrier as he was miserable the whole time. I only let him go that long as I was led to believe it would take a while. So I ask the barefoot folks if I should have left him longer when he is sound and not foot sore with shoes, or if I should leave him to suffer for a 3 trim cycle as I did. 

The barn where I used to board was a teaching barn, they taught at a lower barn down a stone lane, their poor bare foot horses could barely walk down the lane, they would force themselves to the grass verge at the side, my shod horse could walk up and down the middle of that lane all day. Of course barefoot worked better for the teaching barn, it is a lot cheaper. 

I am not bashing, even if it might seem so, I tried my horse with it and it didn't work - however the barefoot nazi's need to realize that it is not right for every horse, the same way that shoes are not.


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## Anvil (Feb 21, 2009)

Healthy frogs will grow to the length of the perimeter of the hoof, in the same way a frog will also shed in a barefoot hoof. I do realize and know that a shoe will allow more room for the frog.

Further more I see frog prints on concrete if a horse with a wet hoof walks on dry concrete.

Me shrugs my shoulders how much pressure on a frog is to much or to little, or maybe there is enough to keep the foot healthy either way, as the frog is very flexible.

Each to their own opinion. I respect everyones views, so having said that, maybe we all need to let this subject go and everyone do their thing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Anvil said:


> Oh and another thing mentioned was, why a horse with shoes still gets an abcess, something I never see happening in the horses I take care of.


My old man gets them. Far less of them shod than he does barefoot. Even more less of with my current farrier than he did with my last farrier.

He is a halter bred horse with very proportionately small feet and is very flat footed. 

I sent photos of his feet (before and after trim - barefoot) to someone who does barefoot trimming because they asked me if he was made to be flat footed or was he naturally flat footed. They agreed that he simply is a flat footed horse with bad feet and that his trim job was just fine.


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## Anvil (Feb 21, 2009)

Do you have those pictures Alwaysbehind?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## totalfreedom (Nov 23, 2009)

I had a bad dream last night. So I wanna say this before I just stuff it deep inside. Even though this is probably gonna sound corny to most. But.... I love you all. Even though we have our different opinions which seem to grab us with negative emotions at times, that is a petty reason to have anger at one another. Okay, now that I've said that..... LOL Maybe some will think I'm cookoo for saying that. But hey, what's wrong with loving your fellow inhabitants on this earth.

I was searching again last night for thermographic images as bntnail suggested. I did find some pictures where you could see a shod horse with circulation running through the hoof. It was after the horse did some moving around though. But it was still commenting on how the horse shoe was affecting the function of the hoof. I think it was one I found while using this search, "equine thermographic images + shod"? I think I'm gonna quit searching for those images cus I did find some.

AlexS - No I wouldn't let the horse suffer for 4.5 months. I wouldn't mind hearing a few details though if you don't mind sharing. Did you use hoof boots with pads? And if you didn't use em then was the horse getting lots of heel first landings? Was this a stalled horse?

And I'm just gonna say all this for anyone out there considering the barefoot route.
For a barefoot trim to work there's a little bit of knowledge that needs to be understood. And if anyone wants to take their horse barefoot after it's been shod for many years, they need to accomplish those things. Lots of heel first landings. And to get there you typically need boots and pads. Then as the hoof develops you can begin to transition away from the boots and pads.

Typically the back of the hoof is underdeveloped if it's been shod it's whole life. And then if you go the barefoot route, the horse will be sore as it begins to develop the back of it's hoof. But using boots and pads really minimizes this soreness, and speeds up the transition.

I should also mention that it will take a while to go from a shod hoof to a barefoot hoof. Their entire hoof needs to regrow, and the back of the hoof needs to develop it's supporting structures.

Also I suppose I should mention that if you wanna ride your horse barefoot on rocks then you will need to condition their hooves to em. You can't condition their hooves to soft pasture grass then one day go out on the rocks and expect em to perform just as well as they do on the soft pasture. Just like you all and I, we can't expect to be able to run barefoot on gravel just as easily as we can on grass if all the barefoot we ever do is on carpet and grass. You must condition your feet to it, and then we can sprint down gravel roads without flinching.

For me going the barefoot route was worth it. I was given a horse in a poor health state. He limped around from day one of bringing him home. It took patience, but it puts a smile on my face to now watch him running around the pasture. And I was also told by the local folks who are "horse people" that he MUST have shoes. I'm glad I did my own research.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

I agree with you totalfreedom on all of us "fighting" over our own ways of doing things, but that is the way it will always be. You know. We are all opinionated and rightfully so. When we debate, I think its a huge learning experience for all. Some people go a little overboard but that's ok. 

As its been said before,,, the ultimate answer is found with the owner/OP. Talking to their personal farrier/vet is key too. Most of the time I rely on my farriers suggestions. 

An analogy could be looked at like this: going to a doctor with some issue you are having. He does his initial diagnosis and tries to come up with a solution. Now, that solution may or may not work. Its a hit or miss sometimes. But that is how we find a solution. Try this and if it doesn't work, try that. Hopefully, we find what works and we get better. If not, you are sent to a specialist. And goes from there. 

Everybody here has reasons for believing in what they do. I still like everybody here and I respect their opinions! Does it mean I have to follow it? No. Just as they don't have to follow my opinion. To the OP: just take this thread and postings as best as you can. Don't be discouraged in our quarrels.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Personaly I will shoe my horses as and when they need it and the rest of the time they will be barefoot.

No barefoot trimmer will ever get near my horses feet. No person who has done a 2/3/5/7 day course will ever be good enough. My farrier did a 4 year apprenticeship and then went on to do his PHD in remedial farriery, he will do barefoot or shoes as he thinks nessecary and I leave him to it as I trust him (and his 30 years in the business).
At the moment all of mine are barefoot, that will probably change when I start showing Reeco undersaddle as I show on grass and will need to put studs in to keep his balance.

Stan was shod during show season and barefoot in winter. He was only shod in show season because his feet would not stand up to 2hrs road work every day without them.

Pride had fronts on last year because for some unknown reason his feet just fell apart without them. He is now barefoot again and copein easily with an hours road work each day.

My little section B is currently barefoot but I'm thinking of putting shoes back on him as it seems he gets an abcess every other week! He is managed eactly the same as my other ponies and not one of them has ever had an abcess!

My arab was never shod, he had the hardes feet going! easily did 2 hrs on the roads every day and never once did he get footy!

It's horses for courses but I will always trust my farrier because he has never steered me wrong yet.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

faye said:


> Personaly I will shoe my horses as and when they need it and the rest of the time they will be barefoot.
> 
> No barefoot trimmer will ever get near my horses feet. No person who has done a 2/3/5/7 day course will ever be good enough. My farrier did a 4 year apprenticeship and then went on to do his PHD in remedial farriery, he will do barefoot or shoes as he thinks nessecary and I leave him to it as I trust him (and his 30 years in the business).
> At the moment all of mine are barefoot, that will probably change when I start showing Reeco undersaddle as I show on grass and will need to put studs in to keep his balance.
> ...


I agree with this, my farrier has gone to school and then to extra school for remedial and she knows her stuff. My horses legs were twisted when I first rescued him from bad trims and it took a year to fix it. Thank goodness he was only 2 and had the chance to grow. His legs are now straight and I totally trust what she recommends for him. 
I used to ride a Morgan that I would never shoe as she has the toughest hooves ever and could climb mountains.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi again,

Total Freedom, I haven't personally taken the vast majority of this thread as 'fighting' at all(with the exception of the few obnoxious comments), but as a mostly reasonable, respectful discussion. That's what I think these forums are good for, the point of them. Debating the pros & cons of different opinions. I think that can be an effective *part* of becoming informed, so long as people can be objective about it. 

Granted, I personally get a bit frustrated when people keep assuming things that haven't been said(or even that have already been addressed to the contrary) or ignoring bits of posts that don't seem to suit them to answer, get very subjective & anecdotal, but I also think a lot of that is just down to human nature & also this medium of communication - can leave a lot unsaid & misunderstood. So I think it's always important to remember that & try to assume the best, rather than the worst of people's posts & opinions.

I think Anvil(who BTW I agree with the vast majority of your respectful opinions) was the one who asked why 'barefooters' feel the need to argue their case. Can only speak for myself(& actually the 'barefoot' lable grates on me a bit), but mainly it's for the above reasons - noisy unfounded assumptions and misunderstandings - that I feel the need to keep trying to explain, when I express my opinion & someone starts in on how stupid it is or some such - I like to give reasons for my views & ask the 'attackers' to justify their own then. But Anvil I don't get why you think it's just the 'barefoot camp' that does this?? IME it's the same on every side of whatever subject. People tend to like to give their opinions & keep the debate going when others disagree with them unreasonably(well, often with good reason:lol. 

To those who say they've 'tried barefoot' and 'it didn't work', by way of arguing against my comments, yet again I'll point out that there are many factors involved and that I agree fully that many horses(IME generally due to environment/management) don't cope well barefoot and need protection. I feel that people who are willing to force their horses to go bare when they're obviously uncomfortable(in the name of 'transitioning' or whatever) are not being rational or well informed. The 'barefoot doesn't work' argument, without more info on what they've actually 'tried' sounds like there is a lack of information about the whole subject and people don't appreciate that barefoot or conventionally shod are not the only alternatives or factors. Just because a horse doesn't do well bare doesn't mean necessity of conventional shoes are the obvious conclusion to draw.

Oh, hmm, and thanks to those who have given me more food for thought regarding abscesses, as I've not experienced any in my own horses(& rarely in client's) since 'going feral' tho they seem to be reasonably common among the shod horses I knew/know. Perhaps tho it's due more to _bad_ shoeing/management(that seems to be prevalent in this vacinity). Given that thin, flat soles are common in shod horses(not saying the don't exist in others, before people jump on that), that there is no protection for the base of the foot on a conventionally shod horse I can't see how horses working on rough surfaces wouldn't be more likely to suffer stone bruises tho. People talk about shoes 'protecting' the base of the hoof by lifting it further from the ground, but that would work if the horse only works on reasonably level surfaces. What about the rest?

To whoever said they wouldn't use anyone who's only done a few week course, I couldn't agree more. But just because they're 'barefoot' people don't assume that means they're uneducated or unskilled, and just because someone may have done a '4 year apprenticeship' doesn't necessarily make them any good either. Met too many 'educated idiots' for that:lol:. Depends what exactly they learned in that 4 years, for a start. I personally think it's more important to take whatever 'expert' on their own individual merits, not on whatever piece of paper or years of schooling they've had, tho obviously those points enter into the equation.


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## totalfreedom (Nov 23, 2009)

My above post was written right after I woke up from that sad crazy dream I had. I woke right up and knew I wouldn't be able to fall back asleep so the first thing I did was get on the internet.

I kinda feel a lil cooky for saying what I said this morning, expressing my feelings to people I've not met face to face. And really I think I posted it more for myself cus I find that if it appears to me that someone is lashing out at me it can make me angry and frustrated and sad. And after my dream I really felt it was petty of me to harbor such feelings for something like that. But that's how I was raised and conditioned. And I just wanted to share how I felt so I could get it off my chest so-to-speak. 

Sorry to all for taking the thread a lil off topic for my personal feelings. I went back to delete it this morning, but I was a lil too late.

Healthy debate is very good IMO. It helps everyone learn. It helps me learn things that I've yet to come across. And that's what I hope I can do when I post information that relates to the current topic of discussion.

Ok, now I'll try to get it back on topic. :wink:

I'm interested in some details of the horses people had that they said were unsuccessful going barefoot. There are many variables that can affect the outcome of going from a shod hoof to a barefoot one. Nutrition? How much degeneration has already happened in the hoof? Length of time horse has been shod? Is the hoof getting proper stimulation? Is the hoof getting proper stimulation with boots and pads to accelerate the growth of the rear of the hoof? Is the horse stabled for most of it's time? Is there bone loss that's already occured? Does/did the horse have thrush? "This one also determines if the hoof is getting proper rear hoof stimulation." Did the horse successfully go barefoot on soft footing then get ouchy on rocky terrain? Was the horse given enough time to develop a proper barefoot hoof? Stuff like that.

Really though I'm just curious if there's something I don't know about that possibly caused the horse to be unable to go barefoot. Or was it simply that the horse was set up to fail? "And I'm not saying that if the horse was set up to fail that it was intentional. Most likely the owner/farrier/trimmer/vet, didn't know better." I'm just curious so that I can add it to my personal knowledge bank.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Changing the subject slightly, let me outline a scenario:

Mare is shod and has bad feet. Always throwing shoes, hoof wall is full of nails. Barefoot is given a chance, and the mare does great. Her hooves look much nicer and she is sound, but she can't handle gravel or rocks--it makes her quite tender. Expensive Cavallo hoof boots are purchased in her size, and from all appearances seem to fit. But they're a total PITA to put on, and even with the recommended linings, they literally rub her pasterns raw and bloody. Beyond that, they are fairly big, bulky, and heavy. They impede her movement. Did I mention she's a barrel horse? She can't run with the boots on--it slows her down too badly. She can't warm up outside the arena without the boots, because it's all gravel. There's no time to remove and replace the boots before and after a run. Oh, and don't forget her pasterns are bleeding now...

What's the solution to THAT?


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

bubba personaly I'd look shoeing her and at feeding a biotin suppliment untill the end of the season. At the end of the season I'd take her shoes off and let her have some time without and for the new horn to grow in. Then next season you'll probably find that she will keep shoes on easier.

Thats what we did with stan who had the same problem.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Luckily in this case it ended up being a non-issue, as I stopped barrel racing that horse and now use her mainly for pasture trail riding, sans both shoes and boots. But had I not retired her from competition, my options were limited. She did stay sound on shoes, so I could have continued that and dealt with the crumbly-hoofed repercussions (she was already on a hoof supplement at that time). But surely the barefooters would not like that compromise, as the steel shoes were undoubtedly causing such horrible damage....what solution would they suggest to the dilemma, as I'm sure it's a far from unique one?


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> No barefoot trimmer will ever get near my horses feet. No person who has done a 2/3/5/7 day course will ever be good enough. My farrier did a 4 year apprenticeship and then went on to do his PHD in remedial farriery, he will do barefoot or shoes as he thinks nessecary and I leave him to it as I trust him (and his 30 years in the business).


The person I am learning on is/was a master farrier - Did a lot of remedial shoeing, as well as being the main farrier for racetracks - And turned to barefooting because he was frustrated about the lack of success (By that I mean curing, not palliative care) he was having with chronic hoof problems like navicular. He has been barefooting now for many years. I think that's about as knowledgable and experienced, in both fields, as you get!


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## Anvil (Feb 21, 2009)

Loosie I apologize for commenting about barefooters trying to prove their points, and realize you feel grated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Loosie, Anvil didn't mean to single out barefooters. My horses are barefoot. Always will be unless it is necessary for them to have shoes. As far as I'm concerned they will stay that way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

wild_spot said:


> The person I am learning on is/was a master farrier - Did a lot of remedial shoeing, as well as being the main farrier for racetracks - And turned to barefooting because he was frustrated about the lack of success (By that I mean curing, not palliative care) he was having with chronic hoof problems like navicular. He has been barefooting now for many years. I think that's about as knowledgable and experienced, in both fields, as you get!


My farrier is a master farrier, he also worked on race tracks. He does all the remedial Farriery for our local equine hospital and he lectures there as well.

I'd probably let your farrier touch my horses feet but it would of course depend on me seeing some of his work.

Loosie. I can tell you exactly what a farrier learns during an apprenticeship in the UK, they have to do an NVQ level 3 in farriery and the syllabus for that is available to anyone who asks. 
I also like the fact that a farrier has to be registered with the FRC and the WCF so that should a farrier damage my horses feet and lame my horse I can complain to them, the matter will then be investigated and the farrier delt with. and By delt with it could be anything from telling him not to do it again, to sending him on a compulsory course or a fine, or in the worst case scenario the farrier could be struck off the register and will not be able to hurt anyone elses horse ever again as it is illegal to shoe a horse in the uk unless you have registered with the FRC.


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## totalfreedom (Nov 23, 2009)

bubba13 - It sounds like you made a good choice by taking the horse out of competition. I'm glad you mentioned the problems you ran into with the cavallo boots. I believe that I am gonna stick with easycare's products. There are quite a few stories I read of people competing in endurance rides using their products, and they all comment on how good they are. I mainly remember the endurance stories cus it looks fun to me. There are others competing in different events.

It also sounds like the horse was sound on soft surfaces and then ouchy on gravel. To me that would mean that the hoof needs more conditioning on various terrain before putting the horse through any serious work. I don't do any competing with horses. I just ride for fun. But when I began the transition of my horse to barefoot he was also improving and doing good on the soft pasture where he lived. But then he would get ouchy on the gravel. I just kept working with him and conditioning his hooves, and now we ride on a mountain full of lava rocks.


Pete Ramey is the person who I received most my education from. Not personally, but I bought his dvd course. Something like 20? hrs of information... But he was also a farrier, and his story is kinda neat to listen to as to why he went to barefoot. In a nutshell a friend of his kept showing him barefoot stuff and he would just pass it off. It took some time before he actually decided to give it a look. Then he eventually tried it on his horses. He was running a trail riding business and his horses began to improve from the barefoot trimming he was doing. He also kept an anvil in his truck for like 8?years. Cus he told him self he'll never comprimise the horses hoof, and if it needed shoes he was gonna shoe it.

Battery's almost depleted so I gotta leave out lots of details.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Anvil said:


> Loosie I apologize for commenting about barefooters trying to prove their points, and realize you feel grated.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No worries & it's not at all your posts that I have any problem with. Cheers!:wink:


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

totalfreedom said:


> It also sounds like the horse was sound on soft surfaces and then ouchy on gravel. To me that would mean that the hoof needs more conditioning on various terrain before putting the horse


Could well be that. Could also be that the hooves are unhealthy - eg soles too thin, caudal hoof too weak - to deal with that stuff yet, which is a main reason why I believe it's important to prioritise a horse's comfort first & foremost. If they can move comfortably, they can get more *correct* hoof function happening & therefore develop hoof strength. BUT it's also important to consider that 'ouchy' steps may not necessarily mean pain/damage - could be the horse just feeling what he's walking on & adjusting his steps accordingly to *avoid* doing damage.



> He was running a trail riding business and his horses began to improve from the barefoot trimming he was doing. He also kept an anvil in his truck for like 8?years.


Interesting to hear an old master farrier I met recently telling about his surprise to see this mob of trail horses who work in the high country(granite) here; he used to shoe them & then they 'went feral'(my term, btw!:lol Well next he saw them, they were all looking great, even the oldies, didn't need the 'normal' amount of rest or 'spells' to recover from their hard work... he says it was the ones that got the most work that looked & moved the best, and it wasn't just their feet, but their whole bodies that had benefited.

...And I quoted your comment about the anvil because the master farrier I work with is apparently also still very attached to his too!:lol:


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

faye said:


> Loosie. I can tell you exactly what a farrier learns during an apprenticeship in the UK, they have to do an NVQ level 3 in farriery


Yeah, reckon it's a good idea that it's regulated. Yes I would be intereted to learn what the UK syllabus is please? Particularly of the anatomy & biology side of things, hoof function, how hooves effect the rest of the body & vice versa... Seems it's not a given that every farrier course goes into all that stuff in depth.

But my main point was that just because they may all be qualified doesn't make them all equally good. Qualifications don't maketh the man:lol: Just like lack of a 4 year apprenticeship or whatever doesn't mean someone's an unskilled, uneducated dolt. There are more ways to become educated than an apprenticeship. The industry is completely unregistered here & there are some terrible but fully qualified farriers, and some 'bush educated' ones who are fantastic & extremely knowledgeable. From what I've heard of the rest of the world, my experiences aren't unusual.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Loosie. The NVQ level 3 is a nationaly set syllabus and therefore every farrier registered in the UK will have the same minimum level of education.

I cant get onto myerscough college website at the moment as it seems to be down but you can get the syllabus by emailing them or by emailing these people
The Farriery Training Agency Website

I only have access at the moment to a basic summary (which yes has a heavy load of anatomy and physiology) but my farrier is up in 2 weeks and he will normaly have a full summary with him so i'll be able to get an indepth one then (but only a hard copy, your best bet is to email the farrier training and get the syllabus emailed to you, be warned though that the UK is on holiday at the moment so you are unlikely to get any form of reply untill the 2nd or 3rd of may, its easter this weekend and the royal wedding and mayday next weekend! I personaly have the next 11 days off and have only had to take 3 days holiday to get it!!!).

In the uk farriers must also continue to up date thier knowlege inorder to remain registered.

No qualifications dont maketh the man but my god do they help perticularly when those qualifications come from an apprenticeship so it is not just book learning but on the job training with an approved training farrier.

I'm a chemical engineer by qualification and I work in the chemical industry, the very thought of someone unqualified fiddling with processes makes my stomach turn. Alot of the major disasters in this industry have been caused by someone without qualifications or with substandard qualifications, so you can probably see where my views come from.

If bush trained farriers are so good then they will have no problem passing the exams that proove they have the skills.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

mbender said:


> Loosie, Anvil didn't mean to single out barefooters. My horses are barefoot. Always will be unless it is necessary for them to have shoes. As far as I'm concerned they will stay that way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Maybe you could let him speak for himself? Goodness, do I need my husband to back up everything I say here. Surely Anvil is his own person?


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

What is your problem Alex? If you don't like what I say or how I say it, then do like the rest... IGNORE it! Why do you feel the need to come off like a witch?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

Id like to throw out the idea that maybe instead of arguing shoes vs no...Perhaps we should look at improving the shoe material we use on our athletes and improving the knowledge of the people applying them. Where I am located, you would be hard pressed to find a truly good competent farrier who can correct basic problems shod horses will have. Most of them cold keg shoe and are guilty of many shoeing crimes that cause alot of problems.

It is interesting to me that we continue to make amazing new shoes and even saddle/riding equipment out of state of the art materials, but horses have been stuck in metal clogs all this time. We know now that the horses hooves are flexible and need stimulation to remain healthy...why continue to stay with this old technology when we have so many other options to explore and study? I have seen old arthritic horses gain a new spring in their step when gotten out of metal shoes in favor of impact absorbing rubber alternatives. Its a very viable option. They have better grip and more natural support without costing a fortune in pads and fill. 

There isn't any one of us that would run a marathon in wooden clogs or metal bottomed tap shoes.....We can do better for our equine athletes and SHOULD STRIVE to do better IMO. There are big reasons why people are looking outside the traditional metal shod farrier box more and more frequently...navicular horses at 6 years old comes to mind...Lame and unusable animals at a young age due to preventable hoof issues are heartbreaking. We can do better. We should want to do better as stewards of our animals. Getting stuck in one way of thinking is dangerous IMO. Be careful how ridged you become on either side of this issue.

IMO metal is outdated, and although it has its uses in certain situations for stabilizing things, we have better options now that allow the hoof to function more normally and reduce the concussion factor greatly. Why ignore or deny progress in favor of "Well, we have always done it this way and its just fine" What if we really could be doing better for the horse and his length of useful life? We shouldn't stop advancing just because something works. We can always do better, invent better, learn how to apply and maintain better. We must always remember we dont know it all yet and not trying to improve our knowledge every day only limits us in the end. We must keep learning and inventing and trying new things as horsemen and women. Its our duty IMO. It really is all for the good of the horse in the end right?

Equiflex Polysteel Horseshoes: Advantages
GROUND CONTROL HORSESHOES (877) TRACTION
Perfect Hoof Wear


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

Hmm can no longer edit a typo I found...When does it stop letting you edit something? 

This should say above...

...we continue to make amazing new shoes (for human athletes) and even saddle/riding equipment out of state of the art materials


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

:clap:Yes! Well put Trinity! That's my whole point & why the 'barefoot' lable & attitudes of 'shoe vs bare' grates on me so much. Domestic horses, due to the way we manage them(not to mention how they're usually shod) do not cope bare with everything we expect of them, but that's absolutely no argument for metal rims. People need to educate themselves on how the hoof functions(or doesn't...) & the full effects of 'footwear' of whatever type. Eg. we should look into how & why something 'works' and understand the 'side effects' of it too, not just accept (or for that matter 'try' different) things superficially.



> We shouldn't stop advancing just because something works. We can always do better, invent better, learn how to apply and maintain better.


Brings to mind the saying "If you've always done what you always did, you'll always get what you've always got". Considering various lamenesses & early retirement of horses is so extremely common with traditional management - what's always been done... 

The unanswered questions aren't as much of a worry as the unquestioned answers!


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Loosie, you are all very well saying that "if your horses feet cant cope wiht what you want it to do then stop doing it" which is the messege I get from your posts. 

However if you have £100k worth of 4* eventer and its feet wont stand up to the road work, then tell me you would retire that horse and loose its entire earning potential and 80% of its value? Like hell you would. you'd stick shoes on it and studs and get on with the job!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

faye said:


> However if you have £100k worth of 4* eventer and its feet wont stand up to the road work, then tell me you would retire that horse and loose its entire earning potential and 80% of its value? Like hell you would. you'd stick shoes on it and studs and get on with the job!


Faye, I'm assuming you mean 'like hell *YOU* would'. If that's not what you meant, you're very wrong & I'd thank you not to project your own values onto me. 

As previously stated, I do appreciate people have different prerogatives, don't all share my view. That's fine & not meaning to be offensive about other's ideas, but since Faye has made the above 'value comments', I'll tell what I think of that attitude. 

My personal take on your above scenario is that I first & foremost wouldn't personally buy an expensive competition horse, and if I did happen to have one, I certainly would not sacrifice it for the sake of a few medals & dollars, but would do what it took to keep it healthy & sound regardless of it's value, because IMO animals to me are NOT commodities, possessions to be used & abused as the owner sees fit. To me they are sentient, sensitive animals who I believe deserve respect & care. IMO those who care more about dollars & prizes than the horse should own motorbikes instead. 

Of course it's much easier to just bung on shoes or whatever, make your money & retire the horse when it breaks down. It takes a bit of time & effort to actually work towards developing a horse's hoof health so they can 'stand up to' roadwork or whatever.

& FWIW, I do happen to work with a few expensive competition horses(various disciplines), who do care for their horses, not just the competition or money.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

faye said:


> Loosie, you are all very well saying that "if your horses feet cant cope wiht what you want it to do then stop doing it" which is the messege I get from your posts


Oh, also I tend to find that it generally doesn't come down to 'stop doing it' in the manner I'm assuming Faye means it either. It's usually more about doing things differently.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

loosie. I fail to see how shoving shoes on it will cause a horse to break down.

Yes owners of of expensive competition horse truely care about thier horses, however they have also made a huge investment in that horses career, when faced with a simple bill of £100 for shoes all round (which no matter what you say I refuse to believe this will damage the horse further) versus something in the region of £80k loss (plus earning potential) they are going to be sensible financially and put the shoes on.
It takes years and years to get a horse to top level, no one is going to stop that preparation just to transition a horse to barefoot. They may transition it if the horse has very solid feet and the shoes come straight off and the horse can continue with its current work load.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Faye, you might as well give up with the logical approach.

Some people have a theory that there is one and only one right way to have a horse. Anyone who does it differently is just cruel and wrong, etc.
There is not way to change their mind, even with logic.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Faye, you might as well give up with the logical approach.
> 
> Some people have a theory that there is one and only one right way to have a horse. Anyone who does it differently is just cruel and wrong, etc.
> There is not way to change their mind, even with logic.


I'm gettting that impression! shame as god gave people brains that they just don't seem to use!


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

(which no matter what you say I refuse to believe this will damage the horse further)

^ Funny, that to me sounds more close minded than anything Loosie has said, and curiously like the fingers in ears and la la la attitude I think someone mentioned earlier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Wildspot, I have yet to see any ACTUAL proof that good shoeing causes problems. The first heatscan shown was a load of tosh as the horse had a separate issue. 

Also Metal conducts heat at a different rate and thus will of course affect a heat scan untill it has had time to equalise.

I've seen plenty of very sore barefoot horses and I've seen untold harm caused by BAD shoeing but I've never seen a horse damaged by good shoeing. Infact My arab quite happily went between the 2 with no problems he was shod when showing as we need studs in, barefoot when not and never had any transition period needed.

Untill I am shown actual *independant* scientific proof, peer reviewed and which addresses all the thermodynamic issues that I can see with those thermal images then you will struggle to convince me.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

faye said:


> no matter what you say I refuse to believe this will damage the horse further


Yes, I get that. It is only you that's saying 'will' btw. I just don't get why you're making statements rudely assuming you know what I'm on about when you aren't even interested in considering alternate views. I also thought you were talking of a hypothetical situation about value judgements, were you not? 



> when faced with a simple bill of £100 for shoes ... versus something in the region of £80k loss (plus earning potential) they are going to be sensible financially and put the shoes on.


Um, I'm lost as to the point of the above. Of course, assuming the above amounts, assuming the difference was only shoes, assuming...?? I'm guessing you must be talking of a particular case you know of where that 80K was lost for some reason that you perceive must have been failure to shoe?? 



> ...no one is going to stop that preparation just to transition a horse to barefoot. They may transition it if the horse has very solid feet and the shoes come straight off and the horse can continue with its current work load.


Perhaps you should have explained your hypothetical better, because I wasn't even on the wavelength of 'transitioning a horse to barefoot'. The second sentence above is also obviously your opinion, but it's not everyones, in the competition world or otherwise. Just because you can't see the value of something, don't assume there isn't any or that no one else can. I also don't get why you'd stop training or anything assuming you were 'transitioning to bare' anyway. Are you assuming I think that or something? I suspect you haven't actually read what I've been writing...



> Some people have a theory that there is one and only one right way .... There is not way to change their mind, even with logic. ....shame as god gave people brains that they just don't seem to use!​


Yeah, well, there's no arguing with that amazing demonstration of logic and brain power:shock: Perhaps your whole problem both of you is you're just so arrogant & righteous you think you're here to change people's minds. Perhaps that's why you resort to insults when people don't agree with you.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

faye said:


> Wildspot, I have yet to see any ACTUAL proof that good shoeing causes problems. The first heatscan shown was a load of tosh as the horse had a separate issue. ....Untill I am shown actual *independant* scientific proof, peer reviewed and which addresses all the thermodynamic issues that I can see with those thermal images then you will struggle to convince me.


If you bother to look into the sources available, you will find some good studies. But you've got to look. Bowker is one who repeatedly comes to mind. But since you're going on about 'actual proof', perhaps you also don't realise there is precious little of that to support your assumptions either? Absence of proof is not proof of absence. But anyway, I'm not interested in convincing you, I'm just interested in giving people information available to help them make their own informed decisions for the benefit of their horses. You can lead a man to knowledge, you just can't make him think.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Hmm must go and tell my 30 yr old pony who has been shod most of his life that he should have issues with his feet and he should be lame/stiff/have navicular/lammi/lack of feeling in his feet which should shorten his life.
Never mind the fact that at the next farrier visit he is having shoes back on because I am sick to death of constant abcesses from gravel and I hate seeing my little old boy in any discomfort.

Barefoot works for some horses, it does not work for all horses. Yes I know of some event horses who tried to go barefoot, funny that they have all gone back to shoes because horses lack of grip or because thier horses feet would not stand up to the work.

I've also sat and watched the show hunter ring at shows, I've seen a lot of nasty slips on corners from barefoot horses and I've yet to see a shod horse slip. Oh and some judges are now refusing to ride horses that are not shod (and studded) becuse when they gallop them in a tight grass ring barefoot horses slip and slide and a couple of judges have ended up on the floor with the horse.

You've only got to look at the likes of Dr Strasse_r _to see what damage can be done by bad barefoot trimming. In fact she was sucessfully prosectuted in the UK by the ILPH, RSPCA and RCVS all of which have deamed the method as Cruel.

Barefoot is essentialy keeping the hoof as close to natural as possible, thats all very well and commendable but what you seem to forget is that the true WILD horse (not feral horses, mustangs are feral and essentialy penned in by farming) live primarily on grassy plains and only have the occasional need for high speed flight over rocky or abrasive terrain. The way we keep horses is not natural (except for some tribes in mongolia), we ride them on the road, we ask them to ride up stoney paths, cross concrete yards, we ask them to stay in stables with beds where the amonia from urine and faeces soaks onto thier hooves, we ask them to take the additional weight of a rider and balance it, we feed them grains which they would not get in the wild, we breed horses with no regards to their feet where as in the wild a horse with bad feet would be removed from the gene pool due to predators, we ask them to compete and do *intense* work on a daily basis. 
Given the above is it any wonder that some horses feet need additional support, shoes were developed for that reason and I have yet to see a viable alternative.


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## totalfreedom (Nov 23, 2009)

faye said:


> I have yet to see any ACTUAL proof that good shoeing causes problems.





faye said:


> Hmm must go and tell my 30 yr old pony who has been *shod most of his life* hat he should have issues with his feet ......................................... Never mind the fact that at the next farrier visit he is having shoes back on because I am sick to death of *constant abcesses from gravel and I hate seeing my little old boy in any discomfort*.


:think:

I don't recall anyone saying that shoeing a horse will cause navicular/laminitis. Maybe I just didn't see it, and can't recall it.?

Any choice you make is the right choice for you. I'm not trying to convince anyone. At least I hope I'm not trying to come off that way. I too just want to provide information that perhaps others have yet to come across.

Good shoeing does cause underdeveloped hooves, which depending on what you want from your horse could be a problem. Maybe not in every scenario. A small little test to observe this is to go around feeling different horses lateral cartilages. It's common for a horse that's been shod it's whole life to have severely underdeveloped lateral cartilages. You can also feel this in a horse that's had it's fronts shod it's whole life as to where the backs have never been shod. The fronts lateral cartilages will have the thickness similar to a foal, where as the backs will be fully developed.

Most people who have actually studied barefoot hoof function and barefoot trimming know of Dr. Strasser. And it's very common to hear that most people who go the barefoot route will say that following a "Strasser" trim is very aggressive and that there's a better way to trim for barefoot. Strasser is aggressive and IMO there's a better way to trim for barefoot.

Again I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I think that everyone should do their own homework. I'm only trying to point out where IMO I see some discrepancies.


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## totalfreedom (Nov 23, 2009)

faye said:


> true WILD horse (not feral horses, mustangs are feral and essentialy penned in by farming) live primarily on grassy plains and only have the occasional need for high speed flight over rocky or abrasive terrain.


I don't get it. So are you saying that a feral horse is different and it's acceptable for it to live in high desert mountainous regions with lots of rock and sparse forage and have tough hooves.?

I have a domestic horse that is a gravel cruncher who goes on gravel roads and lava rock covered mountains.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Faye, If you're going to waste everyone's time stating the obvious & arguing points that to my knowledge, no one is even disagreeing with you on(I've only skimmed the last), please don't bother. If you want to join the debate, please at least bother to read what we're debating & have already said.



faye said:


> Hmm must go and tell my 30 yr old pony who has been shod most of his life that he should have issues with his feet and he should be lame/stiff/have navicular/lammi/lack of feeling in his feet which should shorten his life.
> Never mind the fact that at the next farrier visit he is having shoes back on because I am sick to death of constant abcesses from gravel and I hate seeing my little old boy in any discomfort.
> 
> Barefoot works for some horses, it does not work for all horses. Yes I know of some event horses who tried to go barefoot, funny that they have all gone back to shoes because horses lack of grip or because thier horses feet would not stand up to the work.
> ...


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