# Difference between bays and browns?



## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

Technically there is a slight genetic difference between the two agouti genes that cause bay and brown, but by looks, browns are characteristically darker and more often confused with blacks than with bays. The give away is usually in the face and genital area. browns will have brown/tan muzzles and maybe around the eyes and base of the ears and around the underbelly and genital area.
blacks will not, though sometimes blacks can sunbleach almost to the point of looking brown


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

The majority of horses that are called "dark bay," are in reality brown. 

As lilruffian said, a brown horse will have cinnamon-colored soft points (muzzle, underside of flank, point of buttock). Also, brown horses typically vary in color season to season. My friend has a technically brown Arab gelding who is registered as bay. He has the cinnamon soft points. In summer, he's usually a deep mahogany color, almost burgundy. In winter, he turns almost black. As he's shedding out, he will go even lighter.

Genetically speaking, bay and brown are both variations of the agouti gene, along with wild bay. They only show up on black-based horses, but red-based horses can be agouti carriers. The reason agouti only shows up on black-based horses is that agouti acts to restrict the expression of black. Red-based horses have no black to restrict. Bay restricts the black to the hard points (mane, tail, legs, ears, muzzle). Brown takes that a step further and lightens the soft points (muzzle, flanks, point of buttocks), as well as restricting the black to the hard points. Wild bay takes things even further and restricts the black to the very bottom of the legs and mixes the mane and tail. Wild bays also tend to be lighter in general. Bay agouti is denoted by A_. Brown agouti is denoted by At__. Wild bay is not yet testable, so does not have a designation.
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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Here is a visual of my brown horse. When I first got her, I thought she was bay. These are in order of when I first got her in summer 2012 until now. You can see in the Fall/Winter she looks like a completely different horse.

The last picture is her current color. It's awesome having a horse that changes color from season to season. Although she hasn't gotten quite so "orangey" and sunfaded since the summer I got her. I think that has to do with her nutrition being higher quality here then with the previous owner.

In the winter time you can really see the caramel colored highlights on her nose, around her eyes, chest, girth area, flank and the sides of her butt and belly. It's really cool.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

LOVE your mare, CLaPorte!! She's so pretty and she's so classically brown. 
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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Thank you. I'm completely biased of course but I just <3 her.

This is her yesterday as well before our ride. So elegant and shiney looking.  

I'm a lucky girl owning her.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

CLaPorte432 said:


> Thank you. I'm completely biased of course but I just <3 her.
> 
> This is her yesterday as well before our ride. So elegant and shiney looking.
> 
> I'm a lucky girl owning her.


*drool*

I wouldn't say no to having one like her in my barn, that's for sure.
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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

Not the best example at the moment, but here is one of my past horses (brown) next to her foal who was a bay.








And her, showing more of her brown tones. She was always darker and never really bleached out much like many browns do.


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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

Yay! I have an example to share now! Just got him a month or so ago. He was run through the sale barn as "black". As he's shed out, he has gotten sooo orange.


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## 3ringburner (Feb 8, 2014)

(@lilruffian)
That first horse looks more like a black and the second one looks like a dark bay


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

grayshell38 said:


> Yay! I have an example to share now! Just got him a month or so ago. He was run through the sale barn as "black". As he's shed out, he has gotten sooo orange.


Another good example of a brown. Especially in that full body pic, you can really see his cinnamon points. 
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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

If you know what you're looking for, it is clear that they are browns and not blacks nor bays.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

This horse was brown. In summertime he looked classic bay, completely uniform colour all over except for his black points, but in winter, the caramel muzzle and flanks gave him away.

I never had him tested but I have absolutely no doubt.

That's me on him in the undersaddle photo, we jumped much much higher than that but it was our first show together and I was [am] a nervous rider. I was the photographer for the other shot.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

Most likely your mare is Brown, but you can call her bay if you want. It's not technically correct, and some people might know that, but in the end it's your horse. 
My TB gelding was classic brown, he looked classic bay in the summer but you saw he was clearly brown in the winter. He had the caramel orangey points in his winter coat but you couldn't seem them after he shed out. IME bays will not change color at all when they get in their winter coat, it is also possible to have a bay with mealy points (though this is very discernible from the caramel brown points).


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

so would my sisters horse be a bay or brown?...not trying to hijack just curious!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I would say brown. I base this on the cinnamon muzzle and the legs. Remember how I said that all agouti restricts the expression of black, and each variation restricts black a little more/differently? All true bays (A_) I've seen have high black stockings, usually coming up over their knees and hocks. The black is also uniformly coal-black (excluding white markings, of course). In the majority of the brown (At_) horses I've observed, the black on the legs has not come above the knee or hock, and is usually not the same uniform coal-black. Notice on your sister's horse how there is lighter hair mixed in the black along the back of the front leg?
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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I would say brown. I base this on the cinnamon muzzle and the legs. Remember how I said that all agouti restricts the expression of black, and each variation restricts black a little more/differently? All true bays (A_) I've seen have high black stockings, usually coming up over their knees and hocks. The black is also uniformly coal-black (excluding white markings, of course). In the majority of the brown (At_) horses I've observed, the black on the legs has not come above the knee or hock, and is usually not the same uniform coal-black. Notice on your sister's horse how there is lighter hair mixed in the black along the back of the front leg?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


that's what has her confused about his coloring cause she had ridden this mare who was a classic example of a bay


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

danicelia24 said:


> that's what has her confused about his coloring cause she had ridden this mare who was a classic example of a bay


Exactly. No cinnamon coloring anywhere (her muzzle is uniformly black) and see how high the black on her legs comes and how uniformly coal-black it is, especially compared to the gelding?
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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Exactly. No cinnamon coloring anywhere (her muzzle is uniformly black) and see how high the black on her legs comes and how uniformly coal-black it is, especially compared to the gelding?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you for clearing that up! He also has got dark patches on his butt, neck, and shoulder and has a light cream color around his genital region. Although I also get people trying to tell me my mustang mare is a dark brown when she is just sunbleached. :/


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Some brown horses (who are still obviously brown) are quite a bit lighter than any of those others posted. My neice's horse is a very obvious brown but he's shaded differently.

Here he is in winter. Much darker but still easily distinguishable from black


















And here he is in summer. He's got more of a golden tint to his coat rather than a bay, who tends to be more reddish.


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

well they think she is brown/bay when she is clearly black.

This is her shedding her winter coat









And her in summer:


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

smrobs said:


> Some brown horses (who are still obviously brown) are quite a bit lighter than any of those others posted. My neice's horse is a very obvious brown but he's shaded differently.
> 
> Here he is in winter. Much darker but still easily distinguishable from black
> 
> ...


I knew a TB gelding who looked just like your niece's horse, as far as coloring. Loved that horse!
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## beverleyy (Oct 26, 2011)

So basically bay will not change color with a winter coat, but brown will?

I have a couple recent pictures of my mare (not quite shedded out but pretty close). The last picture was in February I believe, I know she's got her cooler on but that's the best I can find to show her color over winter.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I would say she's a brown, especially based on that last pic.
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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

She looks brown to me, especially in the winter photo. The cinnamon points are very distinguishable then.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

beverleyy said:


> So basically bay will not change color with a winter coat, but brown will?
> 
> I have a couple recent pictures of my mare (not quite shedded out but pretty close). The last picture was in February I believe, I know she's got her cooler on but that's the best I can find to show her color over winter.


She is brown. 

Bay can change "shades" may get darker or lighter with winter coats. But a brown will have lighter points and the telltale sign is the muzzle. 
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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

Now that we have a lot of photos of brown horses, how about some of true bays? 

Secondly, what do you think my old mare was? I want to say bay, but she had an almost white belly (like up by her bag). It was there all seasons though.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Grayshell, I would say she was a bay (A_). What a cutie!!
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## beverleyy (Oct 26, 2011)

Grayshell, what a cute mare!! what breed?


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

*bay vs brown*

hmm.. so this mare is half belgian x morgan ..
so according to what has been said .. she is brown ?
her color is the same winter or summer.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

no one? i have always called her a bay , as she is half belgian


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

She is brown


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## dkb811 (Oct 15, 2013)

Here is my Bay horse with her winter coat. The 2nd pic is after she has shed out. Her dark points seem to get darker in the summer.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

so what is the pangare or mealy people speak of ?would she not have a pangare or mealy because of the lighter nose ?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

stevenson said:


> hmm.. so this mare is half belgian x morgan ..
> so according to what has been said .. she is brown ?
> her color is the same winter or summer.


Yes she is a brown...


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

stevenson said:


> so what is the pangare or mealy people speak of ?would she not have a pangare or mealy because of the lighter nose ?


Her lighter nose is from being brown, pangare does leave a lighter mark on the muzzle, it also does on the flanks and back of the legs, but it is a much lighter color. Not the cinnamon points your mare has. Out of all the horses I've seen that were true bays, they all were light like grayshell's mare. All "dark bays" like your mare were truly brown.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

she is a bodacious brown then. lol
I just wondered about the pangare , as I have read about it on this forum , and then about what is called a wild bay .. thanks all.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Think of wild bay as super short black socks that don't come above the fetlock. such as in these two - 








Equine Color Genetics









Morgan Colors- The Base Colors: Chestnut, Black, Bay and Brown Morgan Horses


Pangare is a creamy almost white coloration. With browns, those points tend to be more orange or red toned. The second wild bay also looks to have pangare.


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