# proper western posture



## jillybean19

I've ridden in a "chair" seat my entire life, but o don't think that is correct. What is correct posture for western? if it makes a difference, I'll be doing endurance in an endurance saddle with a western seat. Pictures and details are much appreciated. I'm particularly interested in how the ear/hip/heel alignment should be
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## existentialpony

I am copy-pasting this from another post 'cause its bed time and I am sure that you will receive very helpful responses in addition to this one!  best of luck!!

"You're riding in a chair seat, which means instead of keeping your heels under you, they're out front and your seat is waaay back on the cantle. Try this: take your feet out of your stirrups, and (assuming your horse won't mind!) bring your knees up over the pommel/on either side of the horn. Feel the way that your butt is sitting in the saddle? You're kind of sitting on your seat pockets... keep that position and bring your legs back down (out of the stirrups). Feel the line from your shoulder, through your hip, down to your heel. You might have to lengthen your stirrups to fit this posture.

Another tip-- when you ride, think about lifting your chest (or sticking out your chest! Haha). This will help you set your shoulders back instead of tipping them forward."

ETA... fwiw, I know that some brands of western style endurance saddles tend to place the fenders forward, making a chair seat easier than a proper seat. I would check your saddle to make sure that isn't the case!


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## StandingOvation

Proper posture will depend on the kind of riding you do. Personally, I try not to fight my saddles too much and usually just let my leg fall where it wants to. 

For example, here I am in an older show saddle. This is a bad angle, but you can kind of see how my leg is under me. 









And then here I am in a reining saddle, which has more forward-set fenders. Total chair-seat in this one, but reiners don't really care about position, anyways.


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## bsms

There isn't a "proper" place for western riding.

The original style looked like this:








​ 
A more typical style for today is shown here. Notice the emphasis on a flexible lower back and moving WITH the horse:






Notice where the weight is distributed in a western saddle:








​ 
A significant amount of the weight bearing area is BEHIND the cantle. That is very different from an English tree:








​ 
For my purposes, I've decided to let my posture be driven by the saddle. For any saddle I'm in, I want my rump in the lowest part of the seat, and I want the stirrup straps/fenders to hang straight down. If that puts my heels under my hip, fine. I'm not going to force the stirrups back. If that puts my heels forward, that is OK too. I will move my legs forward or back for brief times, depending on what I'm doing or about to do.

Shoulder / hip / heel alignment is meant for dressage and western pleasure, both of which mean highly trained horses riding in an arena and covering the ground slowly, with lots of collection. That isn't the same as endurance riding, roping, etc. 

FWIW, the British Cavalry wanted the back of the heel to be 1 inch in front of the chest. That was pretty typical in the US Cavalry as well. But a lot depends on what type saddle you ride, and I don't see much sense in fighting your saddle.


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## tinyliny

Don't endurance riders spend most of the time at the trot and them standing in the stirrups? That's how the Mongols ride.


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## onuilmar

I've always been taught that balance on the horse is the most important thing in riding. That balance allows one to move in rhythm with the horse and the rider's balance is important to the horse. A balanced rider is easier for a horse to carry than an unbalanced rider.

That said, I've always been told that the most balanced position for a rider is to have the heels in line with the shoulders and the knees bent. It is such an effective position that in martial arts it is called "the horse position," meaning the horseback-riding position, according to a sensei.

It is also the position naturally assumed by any athlete playing ball and in a waiting position for action: baseball, basketball, volleyball, skiing, whatever. It's the most balanced position for the human body, while lowering the center of gravity for stability.

This is a matter of physics.


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## tinyliny

I am going to guess that the feet out front chair seat that a lot of western riders do harkens back to the seat used by cowboys who are doing a lot of sudden stops, like you'd do if you were dogging cattle. you'd be better off to have you feet out in front of you for that.

Also, if you are doing a lot of jumping, you're feet will be out in front of you. it's just that as you stand in the stirrup and lean forward, your center of gravity goes over your feet, even as your butt sticks out behind.


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## CowboyBob

There are two picture of me in my horse pictures on Flint, look there


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## QHriderKE

Even though I ride with slightly shorter stirrups than ideal for western.. here you can see the shoulder/hip/heel alignment.


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## Muppetgirl

StandingOvation said:


> Proper posture will depend on the kind of riding you do. Personally, I try not to fight my saddles too much and usually just let my leg fall where it wants to.
> 
> For example, here I am in an older show saddle. This is a bad angle, but you can kind of see how my leg is under me.
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> And then here I am in a reining saddle, which has more forward-set fenders. *Total chair-seat in this one, but reiners don't really care about position, anyways.*


IM A REINER.......AND I CARE! SO DO A LOT OF REINING PEOPLE I KNOW.....if we didn't have a good seat then we couldn't manage to do all the things we need to do. I don't agree with your statement in the slightest......shoulder, hip, heel is the ideal in reining.....


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## QHriderKE

bsms said:


> Shoulder / hip / heel alignment is meant for dressage and western pleasure, both of which mean highly trained horses riding in an arena and covering the ground slowly, with lots of collection. That isn't the same as endurance riding, roping, etc.


No matter what you do, there should still be some form of alignment, I think, to help stay balanced.

Here's a photo of my dad roping, even though his body is turned to look behind him like it should be when pulling a steer, his leg didn't shoot forward or backward, he kept it where it should be. 










I guess what I'm saying is that, yes, when we do things that aren't just "flatwork" (call it what you will) our positions change to make the task at hand easier, but I think it should be a goal to always push for being as close to the ideal shoulder/hip/heel alignment as possible. That position should be a solid base before any other style influences it. 


Even in these video stills, you can see that I still have my position pretty balanced, my leg hasn't gotten away from me and I can still be an effective rider, and it wouldn't take much to get back to that ideal shoulder/hip/heel alignment if I wanted to.


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## Muppetgirl

Quoted from USEF:

Position
In both Western Seat/Reining Seat Equitation and Western Horsemanship, the rider’s body should appear comfortable, relaxed and flexible while sitting erect and straight in the saddle. The body should be erect and straight but not stiff. Riders should be sitting squarely in the saddle with the legs directly under the body, not pushed forward. The rider’s seat must be secure, heels should be under the rider’s hips, the knee in contact with the saddle, calf in contact with the horse, ankle relaxed and the heel down. The stirrups should be just short enough to allow the heels to be lower than the toes and the feet should be placed in the stirrups with the weight on the ball of the foot, not on the tip of the toe or pushed home to the heel. This position gives the rider the most effective use of the aids.

Riders must sit straight and in the center of the horse’s balance, keeping complete contact with the saddle. A quiet, light hand should be held in the proper position while maintaining a consistent head position and balance in all gaits. A secure leg position is necessary for control of the horse and maintaining consistent gaits, transitions and maneuvers.

At all gaits the rider should be straight with only a slight motion in the saddle keeping with the rhythm of the horse. Riders are to sit to the jog and at the lope should be close to the saddle without popping out of the saddle or leaning back. At all gaits the rider’s legs must remain directly underneath the body and the upper body must not fall behind or in front of the vertical. All movements of the horse should be governed by the use of imperceptible aids. The obvious shifting of the rider’s weight, leaning to direct the horse, or over-use of spurring, should be penalized.

About Western Seat/Reining Seat Equitation

Nowhere do I see that it states a chair seat or any other body alignment other than shoulder-hip-heel is ideal.......


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## onuilmar

^^^^

This is what I have been taught. A balanced position on a horse is the same across the disciplines with various minor variations. 

One is balanced (shoulders, heels, hips) and moving with the horse and in effective communication. The horse responds to the same aids, and his pressure points remain the same. 

The different disciplines just accommodate differences in order to complete different tasks. For instance, direct reining is important for jumping while indirect reining is necessary for cattle and military riding because the rider is handling other equipment. 

But the need for balance in position with variations in the openness of the folds remains the same, as do many of the leg and seat aids. This is going fast or slow, collected or strung out.


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## NBEventer

Proper positioning is vital no matter what style of riding you are in. There is a purpose behind the position. Your position is what makes you an effective rider. If you are unbalanced and not in alignment you are not going to get the _proper_ desired results. Every little tiny thing about your position is for a reason. When I sit deep with my leg under me, shoulders back and tighten my core it means I want my horse to slow down. If I shift my weight to one side its because I want my horse to turn. 

There is no way in hell you are going to have a proper flow to a reining pattern if you are not positioned correctly. All those turns, spins, stops and opening and closing of the stride come from the slightest shift in weight and hand/leg positioning.


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## bsms

"the ideal shoulder/hip/heel alignment"

There isn't one. It depends on the saddle and what you want to do with the horse.

Equitation is judged in an arena, using horses that aren't trying to cover ground fast. So equitation rules are designed for what works well for that environment and that goal.

On a trail, you'll get the best results by balancing WITH the horse. That will vary with what the horse needs to do. It might be forward, or way to the rear, or somewhere in between.

Based on what makes my horses happiest (most eager, best speed and duration), a forward seat is best for covering ground. That may be because my lower back is too stiff to move the way Craig Cameron does in the video above.

Here is a video of a jumper. Notice how much his lower back and hips move catering with his seat in the saddle. I am physically incapable of moving like this, although I'd dearly love to be able to ride 1/20th that well someday:

Rio Grande TROTS a Grand Prix Jump! - YouTube

Western riding isn't about riding in an arena. That is why western riding doesn't have a 'correct' position. Cutters, reiners & ropers and barrel racers all adapt their approach to the needs of their arena sport. And riding isn't about 'position', it is about 'movement'.

Having the back of your heel in front of your belt buckle isn't evil. The cavalry WANTED that, and they rode their horses much greater distances in a week than almost any modern recreational rider...including up to 100 miles/day. 40+ miles/day for 5 days straight wasn't unusual at all. 

If you want your heel under your hip, that is OK too - just buy and use a saddle that is meant to put you in that position. If your center of gravity, on average, is centered on how the saddle tree distributes weight, and you move with the horse's motion and balance, then the details are irrelevant to the horse. But it IS important to look at how the saddle distributes weight. English and western saddles have a very different design, and aren't meant to be ridden identically.


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## onuilmar

I don't know. I'm taught jumping and galloping across xc. The one thing the instructor emphasizes is balance, balance, balance and that is with proper alignment.

In fact for jumping, the gold standard is feet under the shoulders/hips. It's what keeps one safe and prevents one from pitching forward over the jump and breaking one's neck.

All I see in that video is the feet under him in perpendicular to gravity. So when coming down the horse might be at an angle, but the rider's feet are under him.


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## bsms

onuilmar said:


> ...In fact for jumping, the gold standard is feet under the shoulders/hips. It's what keeps one safe and prevents one from pitching forward over the jump and breaking one's neck...


You mean like this:










Or this, from a book by George Morris, used as a picture showing GOOD riding:










Since different types of riding involve different equitation, and since the OP is asking about endurance, then it might be reasonable to consider what endurance riders do. I'm not an endurance rider, so I'll let those that do make suggestions. But I see no sign that all western riders ride alike, or should. It seems pretty obvious to me that if your rump is in the lowest part of the saddle, and your stirrup straps / fender hangs straight down, gravity is your friend. Maybe it is because I'm old and overweight, but I like having gravity as my friend. Others can choose otherwise.


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## onuilmar

Absolutely, these people are in balance and their heels are under them. The heels are in the center of gravity between the hips and the shoulders. That is a greater fold, and as the hips go back, the shoulders come forward.

In balance.


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## bsms

onuilmar said:


> Absolutely, these people are in balance and their heels are under them. The heels are in the center of gravity between the hips and the shoulders. That is a greater fold, and as the hips go back, the shoulders come forward.
> 
> In balance.


Exactly. They are in balance, but they do NOT have their heels under their hip. If they did, they would fall forward. Their center of gravity is in a vertical line with the stirrup, with roughly equal weight on either side of that vertical line. This is a very stable position for jumping. 

Think of a tightrope walker. They carry long poles because distributing weight to either side makes them more stable.

The stirrup bars are also located about where the horse's back pivots. The withers are the most stable part of the horse's back. By balancing there, the back is free to move as needed in the vertical, and allows the horse to jump far better than they would if ridden in a chair seat, with weight carried further to the rear.

I don't endurance race. If I did, then I think an argument can be made that a forward seat is the best approach, provided you have the strength to do your part as a rider. But I honestly cannot imagine how much strength and endurance it would take from the rider to ride like that for long distances! It certainly would be way beyond anything I'm capable of!


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## NBEventer

These are pulled out of a George Morris clinic with his comments. Notice how the positions he is loving are the ones with the leg under the rider and straight lines?










The comment with it 



> This picture I like very much. Beautiful legs. This is the correct angle in the knee--about 110 degrees. Her buttock is much closer to the saddle than the others. Excellent posture. Her eyes are up and ahead. There's practically a straight line from her elbow to the bit. Her martingale yoke has to be as close to the wither as possible. Her hand could be half an inch lower, but that's the best picture so far over jumps.














> Awful good. Inside leg at the girth, outside leg is behind the girth limiting the bend. Equal pressure on both reins. Very, very engaged behind. Lowered croup. This is a better position of the neck though the face is slightly behind the vertical. The throat angle is very closed; I wouldn't want her any tighter or shorter in the neck. But this is a good on-the-flat position for this horse to be in because she gets high-headed. This is contact. You can see the perfectly straight line, the steadiness. This is true contact. Look at the quality of the contact--it's taut, it's supple. That's an excellent picture.


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## NBEventer

And just because I found it hilarious to see him critique himself :lol:












> George Morris
> Very bad. Leg is pivoting on the knee. Look how straight it is. No angle in the knee or hip. Jumping ahead. Maybe I was showing that. Was I showing that? Are you sure? Is that my position over every jump? This is a very good example of bad. There's no angle in the knee because I've jumped so far ahead of the horse. My buttock is two feet out of the saddle. My leg is to the rear. My back is quite stiff. My god, I ride bad!


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## smrobs

Unless you are planning to show in Western Equitation or some other class where your position is the thing being judged, then the "proper" western position is the one that best allows you to be balanced, fluid, and effective in your riding.

I've always had a bit of a chair seat and while different saddles will affect how severe it is, it's always there. BUT, that's how I'm best balanced with the horse. I've tried keeping my heels under my hips like a good rider "should", but that throws me off balance and makes me stiffen up. I am unsure whether that stiffness is due to lack of practice in that position or whether it might be because that is just the wrong position for my saddle, body, and discipline.

Either way, my weight stays on my seat bones...not my hip pockets, not my feet, I have independent hands and functional legs and seat. So, I figure if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.


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## bsms

I'm not sure this picture shows it, but here is a problem I have on the rare times I ride our Circle Y (on the Appy):










Not sure if you can see it, but there is a forward groove that this saddle forces my thigh into. In the picture below, you can see my 5'2" daughter riding in this 16" saddle. Part of the problem is that it is too big for her, but when I ride it, my thigh is forced into the same forward angle:










I find the saddle painful to ride. 30 minutes in it, and my hips start throbbing. It may be that I'm trying to ride my normal position, as in the Aussie saddle, and thus end up fighting the western saddle. I actually find a cheap Abetta more comfortable to ride than our Circle Y. I had a chance once to borrow a Wade saddle, and it also felt much better to ride in to me.

There is a good discussion here:_"On the other hand, the seat on a western saddle is built on top of the tree by the saddle maker. On a good saddle, they will add multiple layers of leather, sometimes including a tin layer, and then shape those layers to fit the rider. So what the rider feels is totally dependant on how the saddle maker builds his ground seat. The amount of rise built into the seat, how flat or curved it is, where the low spot where the rider's pin/seat bones will end up (because gravity still works), how wide it feels to the rider - all this is completely independent of the tree."_








​Saddle fit - Western compared to English Part 1

More good info here:

Proper position of a Western saddle

That is an additional part of the shape of the saddle with a western saddle that I don't notice, at least, on my Aussie-style saddle in the picture above.

For me, at least, I find western saddles affect my position more than my English (Bates) and Australian (DownUnder) saddles do. One saddle will make me feel like I was born in it, and the next will feel like a torture device!


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## jillybean19

I really appreciate the active discussion going on here! I'm not going to offer my responses just yet since I'm still sorting everything out and decided where I sit (pun intended lol), hence why I asked the question in the first place.

To offer some information about the demands placed on an endurance rider: Basically, we do what works. Your riding style isn't judged, so there's no real consistency. Plus, anyone can up and try it, so you get all types of saddles, gear, experiences, styles....etc.

Here's what IS consistent:
Your horse is mostly trotting, and, especially in my case, the horse is moving pretty big. Some level of posting/standing is necessary to keep your weight from coming down of your horse's back and to stay balanced as well (it's impossible to sit my horse's trot, nor should I be sitting it). As mentioned, standing for 50 miles would be nearly impossible, so posting is what I prefer to do over most of our miles, though I do stand occasionally either to stretch my legs a little or when we're doing a fast stretch (extended trot - I sit the canter) so that I can free him up to move (though I still need to be balanced so he can move well). Keeping the horse's back from getting sore is the goal, so I need to be as balanced as possible and do my job to make it easier for my horse to do his job over the many miles we cover.

I have a Big Horn endurance saddle, model 117, in case anyone wants to take that into account. However, my primary goal is to sit correctly, and if this ends up putting me in the wrong position, I would rather sell it and get a more fitting saddle than try to fight it or sit incorrectly.


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## NBEventer

I slightly disagree with George on this as I would rather the riders seat to be back a bit further as I find her crotch hovering over the pommel. However I can also see why he prefers it and id be silly to argue George Morris as my jumping coach would smack me lol. She is close friends with George and was actually his first student used for his book to demonstrate correct riding. So who am I to argue with God :rofl:

Anyway I am thinking you are probably wanting something similar to this jilly












> Anne Kursinski
> Here she's in a classic galloping seat. Anne is one the greatest advocates in the world of the forward seat. She's won the grand prix of Aachen, been to five Olympics, etc., etc., etc. You see her really relieve the horse's back. She's really standing up. The hind leg is super engaged, the croup is very low. Look how uphill this mare is galloping. Look how high the wither is. The poll is up, yet the face is close to the vertical, soft in the jaw. The throat angle is closed. That's a real galloping uphill, perfect balance of the horse position. For the rider, she's in a very racing seat--even past a galloping seat--which you also need to practice.


Now the above is a galloping seat but it is probably the closest to the more ideal position for endurance as its to get off the horses back and allow you the freedom to move with your horse over various terrain.

I am far from an endurance expert as I have never done an endurance ride. But I do long hours of conditioning rides to build my horses stamina for cross country. So it is fairly similar. I like to stay in a half seat when I am conditioning. It gives me the motion range to move with my horse without interfering with her.


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## jillybean19

NBEventer said:


> Anyway I am thinking you are probably wanting something similar to this jilly
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> Now the above is a galloping seat but it is probably the closest to the more ideal position for endurance as its to get off the horses back and allow you the freedom to move with your horse over various terrain.
> 
> I am far from an endurance expert as I have never done an endurance ride. But I do long hours of conditioning rides to build my horses stamina for cross country. So it is fairly similar. I like to stay in a half seat when I am conditioning. It gives me the motion range to move with my horse without interfering with her.


This would be ideal in short spurts - such as racing for the finishing line, but it would KILL over distance! I need something that allows me sit in the saddle and post. Like I said before, there's really no "set" way of riding, except that preserves both you and your horse. Since the "chair" seat doesn't allow me to post without coming down hard on my horse's back, it won't be ideal. I'm thinking from what I know about the demands from endurance and what's been said here, I do need to strive for a correct heel/hip/shoulder/ear (?) alignment so that I can adjust my position as necessary but still stay balanced. In this I mean I can go from posting, to sitting a walk or canter, to lifting completely out of the saddle over fast stretches, to balancing myself up and down hills/mountains.


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## NBEventer

Makes sense. I keep forgetting endurance is mostly trotting. Plus it is MUCH longer distances I do lol. I like half seat for hill work and canter/gallop stuff. For trotting I just do regular trot which is more of a pelvic tilt then a rise. A lot of people make the mistake of rising with rising trot. It should be more of a light movement forward and back to flow with the horses movement. 
I love this video to describe the mechanics of a human riding the trot properly. It is also an excellent explanation about why chair seat/forward legs are bad for the horse ;-) (last part of that comment is for bsms)


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## moniegx3

Shoulder, hips, heels!


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## SlideStop

jillybean19 said:


> This would be ideal in short spurts - such as racing for the finishing line, but it would KILL over distance! I need something that allows me sit in the saddle and post. Like I said before, there's really no "set" way of riding, except that preserves both you and your horse. Since the "chair" seat doesn't allow me to post without coming down hard on my horse's back, it won't be ideal. I'm thinking from what I know about the demands from endurance and what's been said here, I do need to strive for a correct heel/hip/shoulder/ear (?) alignment so that I can adjust my position as necessary but still stay balanced. In this I mean I can go from posting, to sitting a walk or canter, to lifting completely out of the saddle over fast stretches, to balancing myself up and down hills/mountains.


I rode like this for about an hour in a hunter pace one time..... *I couldn't even sit down on the toilet bowel without plopping down on it. Forget stairs, riding, or anything like that!*


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## Muppetgirl

SlideStop said:


> I rode like this for about an hour in a hunter pace one time..... *I couldn't even sit down on the toilet bowel without plopping down on it. Forget stairs, riding, or anything like that!*


Bahaha! Had the same toilet bowl issues myself a time or two!!


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## SlideStop

I was totally miserable, but I did win!!


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## Copperhead

*sigh* 

The dreaded "chair leg". I fight it constantly. I think this was the best I ever got with bringing my leg under me:











I did a lot of dressage, but I did more jumping, and jumpers need their legs to be a slightly more forward than the typical dressage position.

If you're not trying to win a beauty contest, ride the way you want.

However, the reason for the "proper" position isn't just because of balance. I have seen a lot of people who have their leg back, but the rest of their body is teeter-tottering and unbalanced. The leg should be back because this is the general area we use for our aids. Or theoretically, the "proper" area that our leg aids should be used for.

It helps us move the barrel of the horse and control the hind end when our leg is back where its supposed to be. Leg position is equally important in reiners, especially since the majority of their direction comes from the seat and leg aids. Are there rules about position for reiners? Not really. But its a bonus if your leg is back where its supposed to be so you can communicate with your horse directly instead of having to swing it back everytime you need to say something.

7 years later and I look like this:










Dreaded chair leg. Maybe one day I'll overcome it. But it probably won't be today. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.


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## farmpony84

I'll post a few of me. I noticed my legs moved forward as well and I think I've actually dropped my stirrups a hole since these were taken. As you can see, I could still put my shoulders back some and sit up straighter. I think my lower leg could come back some and my heels could stand to go down a little but... it's sort of there....

I could probably suck in my tummy as well....


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## GotaDunQH

It depends on what discipline under the category you are doing....but I'm in the centered/balanced seat camp. I ride WP and HMS but when I'm doing Hunt Seat and Dressage...I still maintain the same position in all of them. Here is me and my horse below and even in this pic...my leg could come back a tad further FROM THE HIP, but my seat is not "chair". My seat bones are centered over my horse in the saddle.


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## NBEventer

GotaDunQH said:


> It depends on what discipline under the category you are doing....but I'm in the centered/balanced seat camp. I ride WP and HMS but when I'm doing Hunt Seat and Dressage...I still maintain the same position in all of them. Here is me and my horse below and even in this pic...my leg could come back a tad further FROM THE HIP, but my seat is not "chair". My seat bones are centered over my horse in the saddle.


Beautiful position! Also a great example of how a proper seat will encourage the horse to carry itself properly.


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## GotaDunQH

^ thanks!


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## toosexy4myspotz

Well, you all really got me to thinking on this one. I went back and looked at what few pictures I have of me riding and looked at my leg and holy cow. LoL I have little to no bend in my leg at ALL. :-/ My stirrups look like they could go up another 3-4 notches. :-/ I dont like stirrups though. But Ima make the hubby get outside and take some pictures of me riding so I can see how funky looking I really look. Hehe.....gee...wish I had never looked at those pictures now.


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## NBEventer

toosexy4myspotz said:


> Well, you all really got me to thinking on this one. I went back and looked at what few pictures I have of me riding and looked at my leg and holy cow. LoL I have little to no bend in my leg at ALL. :-/ My stirrups look like they could go up another 3-4 notches. :-/ I dont like stirrups though. But Ima make the hubby get outside and take some pictures of me riding so I can see how funky looking I really look. Hehe.....gee...wish I had never looked at those pictures now.


Long stirrups are okay, but you need to keep your leg under you. In your avatar your leg is pitched forward as you are sitting to far back. Almost like you are in a recliner. 

So you need to pull yourself up, lift from your core, pull your shoulders back and leg under you so you are just sitting on your seat bone.

Ideally there should be a straight line(GotaDunQH i'm borrowing your picture, sorry!) shoulders, hip, heel. In GotaDun's picture as she has already pointed out her leg could come back under her a bit more, but its from her hip. 

Dressage riders ride fairly long. I need to go longer but I have gotten stuck in the hunter land of keeping my stirrups one length and they work for my flat and over fences. I have been getting better at fixing this. My flat stirrups the iron touches my ankle bone. So I am long, but have just enough to encourage me to keep my leg under me through the hips. Some people will say that your toe should line up with your knee. Which is where the bend at your hip comes from. 

If I am clear as mud please let me know and I will try and explain better lol.


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## GotaDunQH

NBEventer said:


> Long stirrups are okay, but you need to keep your leg under you. In your avatar your leg is pitched forward as you are sitting to far back. Almost like you are in a recliner.
> 
> So you need to pull yourself up, lift from your core, pull your shoulders back and leg under you so you are just sitting on your seat bone.
> 
> Ideally there should be a straight line(GotaDunQH i'm borrowing your picture, sorry!) shoulders, hip, heel. In GotaDun's picture as she has already pointed out her leg could come back under her a bit more, *but its from her hip. *
> 
> Dressage riders ride fairly long. I need to go longer but I have gotten stuck in the hunter land of keeping my stirrups one length and they work for my flat and over fences. I have been getting better at fixing this. My flat stirrups the iron touches my ankle bone. So I am long, but have just enough to encourage me to keep my leg under me through the hips. Some people will say that your toe should line up with your knee. Which is where the bend at your hip comes from.
> 
> If I am clear as mud please let me know and I will try and explain better lol.


Exactly....and this is where people can run into trouble, by just bringing the leg back from the knee down. The WHOLE leg needs to be placed a little further back.


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## bsms

Darn beginners! :lol:


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## toosexy4myspotz

I need to get hubby out there to take pictures of me when I am actually out working or training verses my trail riding pictures. Almost every single picture I have of me are when we are stopped on the trail to eat a snack or let somebody use the bathroom or something. I dont have any of me actually moving or working with a horse on something.


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## NBEventer

bsms, you keep referencing to pictures almost a hundred years old. Things change as research has been done to show a riders position effects their horse. If you watch the video I posted you will understand how HARMFUL it is to the horses BACK to ride with your leg pitched forward.


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## QHriderKE

Those old cowboys didnt care about riding properly. Ever. They cared about their paycheck at the end of the day and did what they had to do to stay on that horse to get to the end of the day.


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## onuilmar

NBEventer said:


> bsms, you keep referencing to pictures almost a hundred years old. Things change as research has been done to show a riders position effects their horse. If you watch the video I posted you will understand how HARMFUL it is to the horses BACK to ride with your leg pitched forward.


Besides, some cowboys rode better than others. Just because a picture is 100 years old and the rider is a cowboy doesn't mean that cowboy was regarded as a riding master. And I bet not all cavalry officers were good riders, either.

What do the texts from the cavalry riding schools of that era say? What did Xenophon say? These were recognized master of those eras.


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## Golden Horse

Best advice I was given, I think, was that whatever sort of riding you are doing your basic seat should be such that if you made the horse disappear you would land standing on the ground.

Of course it changes if you are jumping, or working a cow maybe, different times you would take a different position.

I agree with the thought that the pics of yesteryear add nothing to the debate, apart from to show how things have moved on.

Fox hunting anyone?





















Then we discovered the forward seat for jumping











Doesn't always work though!


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## toosexy4myspotz

Golden Horse said:


> Best advice I was given, I think, was that whatever sort of riding you are doing your basic seat should be such that if you made the horse disappear you would land standing on the ground.
> 
> Of course it changes if you are jumping, or working a cow maybe, different times you would take a different position.
> 
> I agree with the thought that the pics of yesteryear add nothing to the debate, apart from to show how things have moved on.
> 
> Fox hunting anyone?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then we discovered the forward seat for jumping
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't always work though!


Technically in the last picture their shoulder/hip/heel is still aligned just not in a sittin up position.


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## NBEventer

toosexy4myspotz said:


> Technically in the last picture their shoulder/hip/heel is still aligned just not in a sittin up position.


Correct. There are times when your position will change. When I am doing a drop fence, I lean back. Why? Because I don't want all my weight on my horses front end when we land that drop, especially if the landing of that drop still has me going down hill. Its the same as when you are going up hill. You go into a half seat going up hill to help shift the weight, but my leg does not move. Sometimes doing a drop your leg will slide forward, it happens, no one is perfect.

But the rule of thumb is when you are riding flat your shoulder, hip, heel need to align.


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## farmpony84

BSMS you are almost comparing apples to oranges when you bring up photos of cowboys. 

You see, a barrel racer would not have the same seat as a WP rider because what the 2 riders are asking of their horses is different. A reiner won't look exactly like a horsemanship rider but more like a cutting horse rider...

If you look back at MHF's photo, her seat position is different because she is riding a working ranch horse. The needs and the movements are different.

It would be the same if you compared a hunter jumper rider with a hunter equitation rider. Those guys that are jumping 6 and 7 feet don't look nearly as pretty as the ones in the medals classes because the goal is different. (although Beezie Madden always seems to look perfect)....

So... the perfect seat in one discipline, isn't the perfect seat in another but the concept is still the same. Seat position really is key....


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## NBEventer

farmpony84 said:


> BSMS you are almost comparing apples to oranges when you bring up photos of cowboys.
> 
> You see, a barrel racer would not have the same seat as a WP rider because what the 2 riders are asking of their horses is different. A reiner won't look exactly like a horsemanship rider but more like a cutting horse rider...
> 
> If you look back at MHF's photo, her seat position is different because she is riding a working ranch horse. The needs and the movements are different.
> 
> It would be the same if you compared a hunter jumper rider with a hunter equitation rider. Those guys that are jumping 6 and 7 feet don't look nearly as pretty as the ones in the medals classes because the goal is different. *(although Beezie Madden always seems to look perfect*)....
> 
> So... the perfect seat in one discipline, isn't the perfect seat in another but the concept is still the same. Seat position really is key....


I hate her for this very reason lol. I wish I had a beautiful seat like Beezie. She is seriously my idol in jumper land. 

Karen O'Conner always seems to look pretty darn awesome too. She is my eventing idol.


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## farmpony84

NBEventer said:


> I hate her for this very reason lol. I wish I had a beautiful seat like Beezie. She is seriously my idol in jumper land.
> 
> Karen O'Conner always seems to look pretty darn awesome too. She is my eventing idol.


I really hope she heals enough to show professionally again...


----------



## bsms

I love the arrogance of the modern recreational rider. 

1 - Cowboy or Cavalry, you could go thru 1000 photos before finding someone who DIDN'T ride that was. You can't claim that those pictures are of idiots, unless you assume every professional rider in that day was an idiot.

2 - The cavalry regularly covered 40 miles/day, 3-4 days in a row, and had to arrive with their horses fresh enough to charge into battle - where losing meant you died. The cowboys of that day didn't have anyone to call on their cell phone for a medivac. They covered a lot of miles - a lot more than the vast majority of recreational riders.

Yet they weren't TRUE western riders. True western riding was only discovered in the 70s, when people started spending more time riding in arenas than at work.

Mind you, I am not criticizing anyone who wants to ride with shoulder - hip - heel in a vertical line. They can if they want. WP isn't my thing, but I figure if they are happy, then I'll be happy for them. But below are two pictures, both previously posted on this thread. Which of the two is WORKING on their horse? I'm willing to call BOTH OF THEM real western riders...but if you could only choose one, which would you choose?








​ 







​ 
If you tell me the top one...OK. But I'm not buying it.

The forward seat became prevalent in jumping about the time that jumping became a competition. Before that, it was mostly something you did sometimes going from A to B. In much of the western US, jumping a 5 foot fence isn't very smart. It would be a good way to kill your horse.

However, a forward seat has always been used for racing. There are statues of Greeks 400 BC using a forward seat - when racing.

But if you want to tell me that the US Cavalry & all the cowboys of 1860 to the modern era were incompetent riders...I ain't buying that either. I don't believe that REAL riding developed about the same time most riders began riding recreationally instead of purposefully.

If y'all want to attack anyone who rides like this:








​ 
I cannot stop you. After all, if someone can look at an English saddle and a western one, and not notice any difference...well, they're beyond any advice I can give! And let's face it: Craig Cameron sucks at riding. He's just another idiot...:evil:


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## bsms

farmpony84 said:


> BSMS you are almost comparing apples to oranges when you bring up photos of cowboys...A reiner won't look exactly like a horsemanship rider but more like a cutting horse rider...
> 
> If you look back at MHF's photo, her seat position is different because she is riding a working ranch horse. The needs and the movements are different...


Thank you for agreeing with me. The cowboys, or cavalry, of the late 1800s had a different need. And thus, they used a different approach.

If you look thru this thread, my point has repeatedly been that *THERE IS NO ONE WAY TO RIDE WESTERN*. It depends on the saddle, on the horse, on the activity and what you want to do. My objection is to those who say everyone needs to ride like a WP rider! Or a dressage rider...:-x


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## NBEventer

farmpony84 said:


> I really hope she heals enough to show professionally again...


I know. I was gutted when I found out what happened. I have always looked up to her as my eventing idol. Such a freak accident too. Thankfully Veronica wasn't injured, but this whole thing is what made me decided to switch to a beta 3 vest. Never going to take a risk with the tipperary again.


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## NBEventer

bsms did you even look at that video? It explains full out why the riders leg forward is so bad for the horses back. 

I find it complete ignorance on your behalf if you watch that video and say its full of baloney. Fact is fact. Rising trot with your leg forward damages you horses back. I bet you if the chiro came saw your horse you would find out the horses back is a bit of a mess from rising trot with forward leg.


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## bsms

NBEventer said:


> bsms... Rising trot with your leg forward damages you horses back. I bet you if the chiro came saw your horse you would find out the horses back is a bit of a mess from rising trot with forward leg.


That style of riding doesn't USE a rising trot. If you don't understand that, then you aren't informed enough to offer an opinion on that style.

And unless you've visited my home lately, and met my horses, please keep them out of this - although they happen to be doing just fine, thank you.


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## NBEventer

bsms said:


> That style of riding doesn't USE a rising trot. If you don't understand that, then you aren't informed enough to offer an opinion on that style.
> 
> And unless you've visited my home lately, and met my horses, please keep them out of this - although they happen to be doing just fine, thank you.


The OP actually asked the best way to do rising trot. And I have been riding english AND western for over 20 years, coaching both as well. So I have a pretty darn good idea of how positioning works and its function with a horse. 

Also sitting trot with your legs to far forward can do the same as it would in rising as you are not absorbing the energy properly and it causes you to "thump" and brace which damages the horses back. You talk about how snarly your mare can be. So I thought I would point this out as there is a good chance it could be related to this very issue :wink:

My mare was really sore and snarly when I first started riding her again after being away for a few years. The girl who used to ride her always had her leg pitched to far forward, the chiro checked her back and the first question she asked was if the rider has their leg to far forward. Bratty Mare still has snarly moments and 9 times out of 10 its because my position is slightly off. She has a custom saddle so its not saddle fit. Its because of my position, which as time has gone on I have gotten much better about and she is less snarly.


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## bsms

NBEventer said:


> ...Also sitting trot with your legs to far forward can do the same as it would in rising as you are not absorbing the energy properly and it causes you to "thump" and brace which damages the horses back. You talk about how snarly your mare can be. So I thought I would point this out as there is a good chance it could be related to this very issue :wink:


1 - Again, watch the video. That style of riding assumes a flexible and active back. That style of riding does NOT just stay there stiff and bounce. And that is actually one of the ADVANTAGES of that style - it makes it easier and more intuitive to follow the horse's movement with your own. Shoulder - hip - heel in a vertical line encourages bouncing, because the backbone doesn't compress. The exception would be, for example, a well trained dressage rider, who can do things my body cannot.

2 - I don't even know what 'snarly' means. My mare will do the OMG Crouch regularly, and sometimes jumps an invisible fence, but she does those at a walk. When we JOG, and my feet go a bit forward...she relaxes:


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## NBEventer

bsms said:


> I love the arrogance of the modern recreational rider.


This offends me greatly. I am not a recreational rider. I get paid to ride horses for clients, I get paid to show for clients and I get paid to coach clients. Within the next two years I will have my own training facility. I am a pro rider currently working my behind off to climb to the top and be riding in a 2 star event within the next 5 - 8 years. I have already had my moment in the grand prix ring with jumpers. 

There is nothing wrong with being a recreational rider. Heck I used to be. But I am not now. And I have earned the right to my arrogance as have others here through blood, sweat, tears, broken bones and shot nerves.

Also one other thing, your arrogance? Its not earned yet, you are still VERY new to this game darling and you have much to learn. And proof of that. Western riders do use rising trot. Hate to break it to you. You are to rise trot in any warm up regardless of the saddle your behind is plunked in until your horses back is warmed up. Get with the times. Your pictures of cowboys from the 1800's and 1900's mean squat. Research has been done extensivly to help riders learn how to ride without injury or interference with the horse.


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## NBEventer

One other thing, to clarify. I might have "arrogance" but I also am well aware that I still have much to learn. Everyone always has more to learn. I am busting my behind to get the best equine education I can. I am going to be taking a nutrition course, I am looking into getting more education about breeding and I am ALWAYS wanting to learn more about training and coaching. I am far from the best, and I never will be. But that doesn't mean I can not have confidence in the education and information I have. Because I take pride in what I have busted my behind to learn. And I can't wait to learn more and more. 

Maybe you should swallow your pride and open your mind. You would be surprised in how much you don't know and still need to learn.


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## Muppetgirl

bsms said:


> That style of riding doesn't USE a rising trot. If you don't understand that, then you aren't informed enough to offer an opinion on that style.
> 
> And unless you've visited my home lately, and met my horses, please keep them out of this - although they happen to be doing just fine, thank you.


BSMS, I must say that virtually every style of riding I've ever heard of, participated in or seen will at some level require a rising trot. It gets the rider of the horses back, is crucial to correct warming up........

What style of riding are you talking about, because these are the styles I've ridden, and have always been instructed or just done a rising trot:

Dressage
Jumping (wasn't my thing)
Hare hunting (NZ fox hunting) (was my thing.....TALLYHO!! :lol
Track riding TBs
Cow horse/penning
Reining......


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## toosexy4myspotz

I dont ever do a rising trot for anything. :-/ My app has a big extended trot and I dont post on him. If I post on him he will come to a dead hault and sling more forward. I have never posted on any horse I have ever owned or rode.


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## Muppetgirl

toosexy4myspotz said:


> I dont ever do a rising trot for anything. :-/ My app has a big extended trot and I dont post on him. If I post on him he will come to a dead hault and sling more forward. I have never posted on any horse I have ever owned or rode.


Never?


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## toosexy4myspotz

Never...Somebody once told me to pretend that my body was like the water rippling around rocks and to just let my hips and back "ripple" with the horse. I never had lessons growing up or anything. I was 13yo and handed a 2 yo quarter pony mare and was told to train her. I didnt know anything about techniques or proper way. I always kept what that guy told me stuck in my head and thats the way I ride a horse. I never put any weight in my stirrups (galloping is the only exception). I just sit back and let my body absorb all the movement. I have a bad back. My L4 vertebrea cause a lot of issues with my sciatic nerve but as long as I can ride 3-4 times a week it never bothers me. Its hard to set back and just absorb all the shock coming threw a horses body from movement but I can go months without riding, hope in the saddle and ride ten hours and never ever get off a horse sore. I have never been sore after riding. I dont hold my body is specific form. I keep my shoulders back, soft arms, and a very flexible back. My only issue is I do loose my stirrups, a lot. I hate stirrups to begin with and could care less if they are on my saddle but I keep my stirrups long but with any kind of movement other than a walk I do bend at my knees more.


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## bsms

There was a thread on HF a few years back on posting and western riding. It seemed about 50:50 split, and regional. In some places, almost everyone said they posted. In others, almost no one did.

If your feet are forward as in the pictures of 1900's cowboys, then posting would be almost impossible. It isn't entirely...I played around with it and you can sort of post, but that style of riding doesn't mix well with posting.

Recreational riders are any riders who don't NEED to ride a horse to get their job done. The large majority of current riders in the US are recreational. Ranches are the primary area of non-recreational riding left. If you do horse sports, you are a recreational rider. If you are an instructor of recreational riders, you are largely a product of recreational riding.

It isn't an insult. However, it is a bit insulting to those who rode many thousands of miles in rough country or in combat to suggest that they were incompetent riders. Please notice that I've attacked NO ONE. I have not said ANY style of riding is mandatory. I have merely said there is more than one effective way to ride a horse, and that a vertical line from shoulder to hip to heel is NOT a requirement for all good riding.

Perhaps those who haven't tried riding like an old time cowboy should refrain from attacking that style - as I have refrained from attacking ANY modern style, including WP, dressage, jump, etc. The very fact that many men used that style over many years, riding horses in rough terrain, and over distances much greater than most modern riders attempt, suggests it IS a valid approach to riding. Not the *ONLY* one, but *A* style.


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## onuilmar

From Xenophon (c. 430 – 354 BC). : A recognized riding master from Ancient Greece and followed in most military riding schools from the medieval era until today. 

Eventing descends from modern era military cavalry training and cowboy riding clearly comes from Civil War cavalry training. 

On Horsemanship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"...When mounted, *the rider should sit on the horse not as if he were sitting in a chair, but as if he were standing with his legs apart.* This will allow him to hold on with his thighs, and the upright position will allow him to throw a javelin with greater power. The lower legs should hang loosely from the knee, as a stiff leg is more likely to break should it collide with an obstacle. The rider's body above his hips should be supple, as he will be able to move more easily when fighting and will be less likely to be unseated if he is shoved. The left arm of the rider should be held against his side, giving him the greatest freedom and the firmest hold of the reins. *It is interesting to note that this position is still considered the classically correct way to sit on a horse, regardless of the type of riding performed...."* 

The bolding is mine.


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## NBEventer

bsms said:


> There was a thread on HF a few years back on posting and western riding. It seemed about 50:50 split, and regional. In some places, almost everyone said they posted. In others, almost no one did.
> 
> If your feet are forward as in the pictures of 1900's cowboys, then posting would be almost impossible. It isn't entirely...I played around with it and you can sort of post, but that style of riding doesn't mix well with posting.
> 
> *Recreational riders are any riders who don't NEED to ride a horse to get their job done.* The large majority of current riders in the US are recreational. Ranches are the primary area of non-recreational riding left. If you do horse sports, you are a recreational rider. If you are an instructor of recreational riders, you are largely a product of recreational riding.
> 
> It isn't an insult. However, it is a bit insulting to those who rode many thousands of miles in rough country or in combat to suggest that they were incompetent riders. Please notice that I've attacked NO ONE. I have not said ANY style of riding is mandatory. I have merely said there is more than one effective way to ride a horse, and that a vertical line from shoulder to hip to heel is NOT a requirement for all good riding.
> 
> Perhaps those who haven't tried riding like an old time cowboy should refrain from attacking that style - as I have refrained from attacking ANY modern style, including WP, dressage, jump, etc. The very fact that many men used that style over many years, riding horses in rough terrain, and over distances much greater than most modern riders attempt, suggests it IS a valid approach to riding. Not the *ONLY* one, but *A* style.


Recreational riders are riders who ride as a hobby. Again, nothing wrong with it. But there is a reason you get titled pro once you start getting paid for riding and coaching. You can no longer claim amateur status once you recieve money for riding/coaching. 

Also I stand behind what studies have proven. You show me valid proof that riding with legs pitched forward is not creating pain for a horse and I might give it a second though. However in the mean time I will stand behind what has been proven through multiple studies.


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## toosexy4myspotz

Well its easy to sit a jog, I will give it that much trotting is different though because its up down up down. I cant explain how to sit it other than if you have a horse that you really trust, get on them with lengthened stirrups, DONT keep your heels right under your hip. Keep them slightly forward. Ask your horse to trot, a good extended trot. Lay your reins down and let your arms dangly by your hips. Close your eyes and forget everything. Just "sit" dont focus on sitting or you will be bouncing around. Just relax, breath and keep your eyes clothes. It works great


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## Copperhead

bsms said:


> I love the arrogance of the modern recreational rider.
> 
> 1 - Cowboy or Cavalry, you could go thru 1000 photos before finding someone who DIDN'T ride that was. You can't claim that those pictures are of idiots, unless you assume every professional rider in that day was an idiot.
> 
> 2 - The cavalry regularly covered 40 miles/day, 3-4 days in a row, and had to arrive with their horses fresh enough to charge into battle - where losing meant you died. The cowboys of that day didn't have anyone to call on their cell phone for a medivac. They covered a lot of miles - a lot more than the vast majority of recreational riders.
> 
> Yet they weren't TRUE western riders. True western riding was only discovered in the 70s, when people started spending more time riding in arenas than at work.
> 
> Mind you, I am not criticizing anyone who wants to ride with shoulder - hip - heel in a vertical line. They can if they want. WP isn't my thing, but I figure if they are happy, then I'll be happy for them. But below are two pictures, both previously posted on this thread. Which of the two is WORKING on their horse? I'm willing to call BOTH OF THEM real western riders...but if you could only choose one, which would you choose?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you tell me the top one...OK. But I'm not buying it.
> 
> The forward seat became prevalent in jumping about the time that jumping became a competition. Before that, it was mostly something you did sometimes going from A to B. In much of the western US, jumping a 5 foot fence isn't very smart. It would be a good way to kill your horse.
> 
> However, a forward seat has always been used for racing. There are statues of Greeks 400 BC using a forward seat - when racing.
> 
> But if you want to tell me that the US Cavalry & all the cowboys of 1860 to the modern era were incompetent riders...I ain't buying that either. I don't believe that REAL riding developed about the same time most riders began riding recreationally instead of purposefully.
> 
> If y'all want to attack anyone who rides like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I cannot stop you. After all, if someone can look at an English saddle and a western one, and not notice any difference...well, they're beyond any advice I can give! And let's face it: Craig Cameron sucks at riding. He's just another idiot...:evil:
> 
> Craig Cameron Explains How To Ride The Canter On the Equicizer & Horse - YouTube


I agree with this whole heartedly, and heres why:

I was trained to ride jumpers/dressage. Leg position was very important and I know why. I liked jumpers over hunters, and heres why:

Do you want pretty or do you want effective?

In jumpers, no one cares what you look like. If you clear the round with the fastest time, you win. Ugliness aside. Its function that matters the most. You have to have a good BASE training in order to survive it and do it WELL. But do you need to look pretty? No.

Fox hunting as well. You need good training under your belt to literally SURVIVE some of those runs. But do you need to look pretty? No. One interviewer said that she didn't care how I looked over the jump, as long as it was functional.

Do you need to look pretty in other english events? Yes, if you want to place. However, jumping and foxhunting are two examples on how you can remained balanced without constant alignment.

Western is the same way. On animals who don't quite "work", leg alignment is ideal. WP - you're on a horse who doesn't move. You can pay a lot of attention to where your seat and leg are. For cutters, ropers, etc., leg alignment is the LAST thing you are thinking about. You and your horse are preforming two separate tasks as individuals to accomplish one goal.

You want pretty, stick to the hunters and stick to wp. You want effective, it'll be balls-to-the-walls to get the job done. As long as you have a good BASE in balance and a good communication level flowing between you and your horse, your leg can fly around a little.

I understand the mechanics of leg alignment and know its uses. I have used it in dressage. But believe me, when the job needs done and it needs done now, that leg is going to move and you're not going to care.

Also, reiners don't trot.


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## Muppetgirl

Reiners in training sure do trot......in the show pen no, it's not required.....but I could bet you my bottom dollar all the top reining trainers trot their horses out, posting....all the time.


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## onuilmar

Copperhead said:


> Do you want pretty or do you want effective?


 
I ride to be effective, and that means leg alignment. I could care less about being pretty. But effectiveness goes back to form, and (unfortunately) there are those who focus on the beauty contest aspect.

I practice dressage (and notice I said 'practice') to stay safe. I started riding at 48. Believe me, I am about being safe while doing crazy (and my husband thinks I'm crazy going over jumps.) Hunter is the jumping end of pretty; eventing is about getting there. 

But guess what, eventing (not hunter) focuses on dressage as well to control the horse and be effective.

That's me.


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## NBEventer

Umm... many top jumpers start out in the hunter ring. Hunters are not about being pretty. They are about being _correct. _You can't go blast around a jumper course safely without having those key buttons put on your horse. Stride control, even pace, correct spots etc. I have actually seen many riders get kicked out of the jumper ring because they were not safe. 

All my event horses start out in the hunter ring. I want a horse that I can take out and know all the buttons for stride control and distance are there before I hit up a timed jumper class or take my horse out cross country. 

And again, the reason position is so important is because it helps your horse perform to the best of its ability. Correct form is about keeping your horse happy and healthy.

I've ridden with a few jumper coaches that send horses to a dressage trainer before they even look at a pole. That dressage training is very helpful in the jumper ring. Those correct roll backs are hard to ride if the horse doesn't have the proper foundations on it.


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## Copperhead

Everything should focus on dressage. Whether its reining or jumping. In my previous post, I agree with how reiner's legs need to be back.

I know the uses and effects of leg alignment. I'm just saying that when you have a job to do, the last thing on your mind is where you're leg is at. Leg position is _ideal_ but I'm not going to take the long way around when I have to chase the hounds down because my leg slipped forward. I'm going over that fence because position is the last thing on my mind, and the hounds are first.

Its good to get back into the arena and work on your position. But when you have a job, there are more important things.


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## Golden Horse

onuilmar said:


> I ride to be effective, and that means leg alignment. I could care less about being pretty.* But effectiveness goes back to form,* and (unfortunately) there are those who focus on the beauty contest aspect.


YES, the best of riders have their form down pat, unlike myself who has to think about my position the while time. So while it maybe true that the jumpers and foxhunters, the reiners and penners are thinking about the job in hand rather than looking pretty, I'm **** sure it's because their body is used to being in the correct alignment without them thinking about it. They may end up in a different position to suit the movement and the moment, but always they return to the classical balanced position.


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## Copperhead

Golden Horse said:


> YES, the best of riders have their form down pat, unlike myself who has to think about my position the while time. So while it maybe true that the jumpers and foxhunters, the reiners and penners are thinking about the job in hand rather than looking pretty, I'm **** sure it's because their body is used to being in the correct alignment without them thinking about it. They may end up in a different position to suit the movement and the moment, but always they return to the classical balanced position.


This is what I meant by my above post.

Though some very effective riders will have their leg out infront of them. Professionals of that calibur don't post on forums though. I remember critqueing the crap out of professional riders and their positions until I got off my high horse and remembered who I was.


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## toosexy4myspotz

The problem with pictures is because they are a split second. Not everybody looks perfect over a jump every single time, or when they are cutting cows and their horses from end just dropped down. Like my avatar makes me look like a retard. Like every other picture I have of me on a horse. I am sitting still and I really do not care but I cant ride slouched over like that or with my legs stretched out like that but it is comfy when I am sitting their waiting on other people.


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## NBEventer

Copperhead said:


> This is what I meant by my above post.
> 
> Though some very effective riders will have their leg out infront of them. Professionals of that calibur don't post on forums though. I remember critqueing the crap out of professional riders and their positions until I got off my high horse and remembered who I was.


Allison Finch is a pretty big name in the eventing and jumping world. Just saying...


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## toosexy4myspotz

NBEventer said:


> Allison Finch is a pretty big name in the eventing and jumping world. Just saying...


Uh, I dont watch eventing or jumping but she amazes me 

I dont jump anything unless its on a trail. Im fine with a ditch or tree or large rocks whatever but I have never jumped anything but some square bales.


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## bsms

Bad riders? Or are those good FOR WHAT THEY ARE DOING?

If their goal was jumping, I assume we all agree that they need some improvement. But as your goals change, so does your riding.

Here is evil bsms, from a couple of years ago:










Dang! Why is my heel so far back? Well, that is the way it works in that saddle, unless I want to fight gravity. Toe sticks out like I want to use it like a wing, though...:evil:

But I will sometimes put it forward. If I think my horse is likely to make a stop on its own initiative, or if I want to keep my horse facing forward and I use my legs like fences along the side, or if I want a relaxed jog instead of a fast trot.

Western riding covers a lot of ground, so to speak. There are a LOT of ways to do it. Balance is always balance IN MOTION, so the anticipated motion drives the position, and the position may need to change every 10 seconds. So what? 

*"...there are only two criteria of your position; *
*a) are you in fluid balance and rhythm with your horse or not? *
*b) does your seat enable you to control your horse efficiently?" *
*- V.S. Littauer*​


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## clippityclop

JB, congrats to you for wanting to improve your seat because I know your ultimate goal is to be the best rider you can be for your endurance horse (at least that is how it is for most endurance people I know including myself) for the sake of his longevity and soundness for the next 5000 miles. 

For endurance, because we do trot for endless amounts of time - one of the things I've always focused on was keeping my legs underneath me and keeping my calves on my horse so that if he spooks one way or another, I'll keep him under me. Keeping your upper body in that 'sweet' spot of not too forward and not too back, will keep you on during a buck and keep you on if your horse suddenly drops his head to look down and slams on the brakes for an invisible booger. My rear has to be light when posting - shouldn't have to press my feet very hard into my stirrups to get up out of the saddle. 

If you get going on the trail at a good 7mph pace, and you feel balanced and can post effortlessly and lightly, you are probably aligned up correctly and don't even know it....have a friend ride along and snap a picture. i see the chair seat on people when they are sitting down or at a slow lope, but there is no way a person can do a chair seat at a big endurance trot without it beating the heck out of their butt and their horse's back. Just curious, are you sure you are in a chair seat when actually on the trail moving out?


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## GotaDunQH

OK...because my pic was used to compare what I do with my horse and what a cowboy does with his and what is effective....I WILL tell you that the cowboy I was compared to...WOULD NOT get a WP horse to perform and do it's job with a position like that! So the comparison can be made for BOTH my pic and his, my job and his. 

So while my pic may not be effective in what that cowboy does....it sure is effective in what I do. And the position for the cowboy in what he does is effective, but it sure in heck isn't for what I do. SO, actually....it's a total wash between the two of us...neither one wins.


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## Lonestar22

GotaDunQH said:


> OK...because my pic was used to compare what I do with my horse and what a cowboy does with his and what is effective....I WILL tell you that the cowboy I was compared to...WOULD NOT get a WP horse to perform and do it's job with a position like that! So the comparison can be made for BOTH my pic and his, my job and his.


In other words---- Do what you have to do to be effective in what you're doing and don't worry about what everybody else is doing.


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## jillybean19

clippityclop said:


> i see the chair seat on people when they are sitting down or at a slow lope, but there is no way a person can do a chair seat at a big endurance trot without it beating the heck out of their butt and their horse's back. Just curious, are you sure you are in a chair seat when actually on the trail moving out?


Positive - this is the way I was taught to ride at all times and, even when I was trying to align myself at any gait, my instructor (so far we've only had one lesson) was constantly correcting it. And, my horse got the sore back to prove it last season, which is why I'm so determined to fix it.


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## jillybean19

bsms said:


> If your feet are forward as in the pictures of 1900's cowboys, then posting would be almost impossible. It isn't entirely...I played around with it and you can sort of post, but that style of riding doesn't mix well with posting.


This basically answers my question, then, as far as a chair seat is concerned. I was waiting to see how this would unfold, but as I do need to be posting (I assume that's what everyone means by a "rising trot"?), then the chair seat will is definitely _not_ what I need to be doing - and definitely contributed to my horse's sore back last season.


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## jillybean19

Ok, just to give everyone a little more background, here is a picture from my first 50, done last July. At least there's one redeeming thing about this photo (other than the amazing scenery): I know my seat is horrendous! So when you all talk about a "bad" chair seat, you now know you've got nothin on me:










PS - this is majorly embarrassing to post


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## jillybean19

Who in the world let me sit on a horse like that much less instructed me that I was anywhere near being correct?!


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## jillybean19

Oh look, I found a picture of us trotting! Yay! >not<

My poor baby, being ridden like that for so many miles


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## toosexy4myspotz

I am going to try and play around with the should/hip/heel alignment and see how it goes just out of curiousity. I want to try and see what I am actually doing and what may help. Just be experiemental and see if my horses act any better or if I can tell a difference.


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## toosexy4myspotz

Me in the orange or peach colored shirt. If it makes you feel any better about your seat mine looks aweful. LoL


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## jillybean19

Haha yeah I'm going to be playing with mine and definitely dropping my stirrups down more


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## NBEventer

For those of you struggling with your leg position. This is the exercise I have my students do for homework.

Start by doing true to form squats going up and down while holding your core tight and upper body straight. This will help train your muscles.

Next get on a yoga ball, hover your seat above it just slightly, leg back under so you are lined shoulder, hip, heel and do slight pelvic tilts. 

The biggest mistake people make is actually rising in their rising trot. Its not a rise, its just a slight pelvic tilt(refer to video I posted earlier)

Now when you get on your horse after you do your warm up, drop your stirrups. I will completely remove the stirrups off my students saddles and for an entire month we do no stirrup work practicing rising trot. Believe it or not, once you do it no stirrups you will realize just how much you are over rising when you have your stirrups. Its just a slight forward and back movement with your hips, using your thighs to "rise".

If I remember I will do video this week for an example if you would like


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## farmpony84

Good Golly those legs go on for MILES! Who cares about a chair seat when you have super model legs?!!!!!


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## farmpony84

Here's my English legs... short and plump!


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## Allison Finch

BSMS, balanced seat riding is nothing new. My pictures are hundreds of years older than yours are. They, CLEARLY show a rider not sitting in a lounge chair with their legs thrust in front of them




























































The big difference is not what is "proper" it is more about what you are doing at the time. Cowboys and cavalry riders were spending LONG hours in the saddle. No one will deny that it is easier on the human (especially male) anatomy to sit in a chair seat. It takes a lot of pressure off of out tenderer parts. So, it is easier on us, but NOT easier on our horses. Chair seats is very hard on them.

Even old paintings of how cowboys SHOULD look are not chair seats










The same with how the cavalry felt they SHOULD look....not how they survived 12 hours in the saddle











As drawn by an artist there at the time.


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## NBEventer

Allison have I told you how much I love you?


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## toosexy4myspotz

If I take my stirrups completely away I am SOOO comfortable. I sit better and stay much more relaxed but taking my stirrups away also helps me keep my shoulders back. Its like when I add my stirrups into the equation I get the position like in my avatar because I am trying to hang on to my stirrups.


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## NBEventer

toosexy4myspotz said:


> If I take my stirrups completely away I am SOOO comfortable. I sit better and stay much more relaxed but taking my stirrups away also helps me keep my shoulders back. Its like when I add my stirrups into the equation I get the position like in my avatar because I am trying to hang on to my stirrups.


You need to shorten your stirrups probably 3 holes is my guess. It will make it a lot easier and you wont feel like you need to fumble for them.

I would love to see some recent pictures. Ideally I would love to see one with your current length, then another one with them shortened.


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## toosexy4myspotz

I can do it but it has to be on a weekend when Hubby is here to take pictures. The main way I can tell I get screwed up is cantering. When I canter I forget either thinking about stirrups and just let them do whatever cause the way I sit at a canter my stirrups are way to long and I cant keep them without loosing my balance but my mare is gaited so canter isnt common for us but I will try and get pictures this weekend so i can show you what I am talking about. 

JB needs to get some too. We can be online posture helpers. LoL


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## Allison Finch

toosexy4myspotz said:


> If I take my stirrups completely away I am SOOO comfortable. I sit better and stay much more relaxed but taking my stirrups away also helps me keep my shoulders back. Its like when I add my stirrups into the equation I get the position like in my avatar because I am trying to hang on to my stirrups.


 
As BSMS said, a lot of it depends on what the saddle forces you into. We often ride in saddle way too big for us when riding western. And many do throw the leg forward, due to poor design. I like the Fallis western saddles as they have a more balanced seat/design.


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## Allison Finch

If you have to reach for your stirrups you may have your legs go forward.

Here I have my stirrups a bit shorter that yours are. It's not an easy angle to tell, though.










Here I'm resting with my feet out of the stirrups. You can see where I have them, lengthwise. And let me tell you, I was in the saddle all day, many days.


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## COWCHICK77

I too struggle with position, matter of fact I have been really trying to fix 20+ years of old/bad habits lately. I am by no means an expert but this is what I have found works for me, correct or not.

My stirrup length changes with what I am doing. 
If I am starting colts or doing arena riding my stirrups come up a notch.
If I am riding outside all day and roping they come down.
And along with that my body position changes to influence my horse

I have said in another thread I am envious of those who had an english background, they seem to really stress body position. Whereas for myself it was, get on the horse and go get something done, never got any instruction on body position for effectiveness. 
However most cowboys that I ride/rode with no longer use that super long stirrup. I posted a pic below that was an all day ordeal of gathering cows, sorting and branding late calves in the Fall. Not the best example but you can kind of see a shorter stirrup maybe compared to what you would think for a working guy. 

In my opinion the chair seat is not as bad as the legs shoved straight out in front and *** braced against the cantle look that I see some beginning western riders use.


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## jillybean19

farmpony84 said:


> Good Golly those legs go on for MILES! Who cares about a chair seat when you have super model legs?!!!!!


OK, so you just made my day  Of course, I'm also blushing lol :wink:


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## COWCHICK77

Off topic...

Love the pics Allison, where was that at?


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## Allison Finch

That was Crested Butte Colorado. I spent the summers there competing in recognized events and also guiding backcountry pack trips. In the fall my show horses and I packed game out of the mountains and moved some neighboring ranchers free range cattle to lower pastures (what I was done doing the last photo).


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## toosexy4myspotz

The first picture is the old saddle I had it was a simco. All the pictures of me in the funky position are in this saddle. Second picture is hubby on her in that saddle. He dont look as bad as me but he didnt take the stirrups down any and he is like 9" taller than me. The third picture is the saddle I am currently riding in. It is a JM Yancey. Its the only saddle that will actually fits her except the rigging. We are taking it at the end of this month and have the rigging reworked and the skirt rounded off to free her hips up more. I know on the simco the stirrups are really far forward but on my JM Yancey they are closer to the center of the seat.


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## tinyliny

ooooh. This is a NICE saddle!


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## bsms

Allison Finch said:


> BSMS, balanced seat riding is nothing new. My pictures are hundreds of years older than yours are. They, CLEARLY show a rider not sitting in a lounge chair with their legs thrust in front of them...
> The big difference is not what is "proper" it is more about what you are doing at the time. Cowboys and cavalry riders were spending LONG hours in the saddle. No one will deny that it is easier on the human (especially male) anatomy to sit in a chair seat. It takes a lot of pressure off of out tenderer parts. So, it is easier on us, but NOT easier on our horses. Chair seats is very hard on them...
> 
> Even old paintings of how cowboys SHOULD look are not chair seats
> 
> The same with how the cavalry felt they SHOULD look....not how they survived 12 hours in the saddle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As drawn by an artist there at the time.


Actually, most of those pictures do NOT show someone with shoulder - hip - heel alignment. If a vertical line goes from the back of the heel to the belt buckle, or further forward, you do NOT have shoulder - hip - heel alignment - do you...:evil:

That is true going back to the Greeks, actually. 



















Here is the photo NBEventer praised:










The back of the heel is at the belt buckle, not under the hip. And that is on a slow moving horse in an arena.

Again, riding is about motion. If your hips move WITH the horse, then your hips won't HINDER your horse. And since a western saddle tree extends much further back than an English one, it makes sense to carry more weight aft in a western seat. That is, after all, how the western saddle is designed.

What would be wrong in an English saddle may well be fine in a western one, BECAUSE THE SADDLES DIFFER!

And if you want to discuss "proper western riding", then it is entirely reasonable to look at how westerners rode when it was normal to ride hundreds of miles each week. But you also need to understand HOW they rode - with a loose, flexible back moving WITH the horse. That style didn't involve posting.

If they could ride 200+ miles in a week, and finish a 40 mile ride by riding into a battle where their life depending on their horse, then MAYBE it works.

In any case, if your pictures do not show a shoulder - hip - heel alignment, then they support my argument.

Here are some more:

From the 800s:










A 1635 canvas:










From École de Cavalerie by Francois Robichon de la Guérinière 1729:










From Dupaty de Clam in the late 1700s (le Trot):










You get the idea. And the cavalry taught the back of the heel should be an inch in front of the chest.

Heck, look at the WP picture posted earlier, with an accurate vertical line drawn - the US Cavalry wouldn't have objected too much:










Not as far forward as the old cowboys, but she isn't riding a green horse in work that requires fast and unpredictable stops.

*Lets see if I can explain WHY it works OK. 
*​
In the picture below, I added some lines.










The red and blue lines show when the body is bent, feet forward. The black line is exaggerated, but show the body as it would be if the hips move with the arrow into a straight line. By moving like that, the hips can move with the horse in motion, and thus are not putting pressure on the horse and saddle.

When vertical, the spine cannot compress. You have to post to relieve the horse's back, because the back cannot lift without lifting a vertical object that then comes down - and into the horse's back.

By having a body fold, and then unfolding it to follow the movement of the horse's back, even someone stiff like me can move with the horse, because the hinge of the hip allows for the motion. Done properly, the entire saddle can lift with the back. And since a western saddle distributes weight over a larger area and well behind the cantle, the effect allows a free and protected back by the horse.

Admittedly, if you put weight into forward stirrups, and then just bounce your body up and down, pivoting around the stirrups, hips rigid, you WILL beat the horse's back.

One of the things I love about Littauer is his emphasis on motion - that no position is right when looked at static. I can ride with my body having shoulder - hip - heel aligned vertically, and beat my horse's back. I know, because I've done it. Some riders can ride that way without beating the horse. And many post because in that position it is hard NOT to beat the horse at a trot.

Riding in the style of the old cowboys, which is a legitimate version of western riding, you can allow the stirrup to be a pivot point, and use your body like a jackhammer. Or you can flex, as I attempted to draw and as I believe Craig Cameron shows in video. And if you flex right, you will be using the saddle in the way it was designed, AND putting very little pressure on the horse's back.

You can be a pee-poor rider either way. And yes, I've been a pee-poor rider BOTH ways. But I've also learned somewhat how to do it right with feet well forward, and also learned with some limitations how to do it with my heels under my hip:










Unlike most of those posting, I've TRIED both, and if my horses are correct, BOTH can work. Heck, I normally prefer a somewhat *******ized version of a forward seat, and it works too!

That is my point, and I'm puzzled that it seem controversial - there is more than one effective way to ride a horse.


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## farmpony84

bsms said:


> A 1635 canvas:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From Dupaty de Clam in the late 1700s (le Trot):


 
Ok... SO... THIS GUY... Is a total dork... Sorry... but he looks like a bad guy off any Disney movie ever made....


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## bsms

^^ *OFF WITH HER HEAD!*

"Anthony van Dyck, Charles I, (King of England) on Horseback, *1635*, oil on canvas."


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## jillybean19

COWCHICK77 said:


> I too struggle with position, matter of fact I have been really trying to fix 20+ years of old/bad habits lately. I am by no means an expert but this is what I have found works for me, correct or not.
> 
> My stirrup length changes with what I am doing.
> If I am starting colts or doing arena riding my stirrups come up a notch.
> If I am riding outside all day and roping they come down.
> And along with that my body position changes to influence my horse
> 
> I have said in another thread I am envious of those who had an english background, they seem to really stress body position. Whereas for myself it was, get on the horse and go get something done, never got any instruction on body position for effectiveness.
> However most cowboys that I ride/rode with no longer use that super long stirrup. I posted a pic below that was an all day ordeal of gathering cows, sorting and branding late calves in the Fall. Not the best example but you can kind of see a shorter stirrup maybe compared to what you would think for a working guy.
> 
> In my opinion the chair seat is not as bad as the legs shoved straight out in front and *** braced against the cantle look that I see some beginning western riders use.


^^I hear ya! This is basically how/what I learned, so hopefully we can both correct many years of incorrect riding!


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## Allison Finch

OK, we can go back and forth to show different positions all day long. Bareback is a totally different subject (as in Greek friezes). However, even the cavalry recruitment posters showed Correct vs "Expedient".

It really doesn't matter. I don't consider your seat to be a very extreme example of a chair seat. I see a person protecting pieces and parts, more than anything.

As I stated earlier, many people use stirrup lengths that are so long it is very difficult to keep the leg back. You photos above also show people "reaching" for the stirrups as do some of mine. That stirrup length is not what many people do (or should) use today, IMO.

Spending LONG days in the saddle does encourage one to ride back on their bum. That does not mean it is better for the horse.


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## tinyliny

bsms, you might like to read the book by Dr. Deb Bennet called "The Conquerers". It's a very lengthy description of the history of the riding style that eventually evolved down into what is the styles that we might now call that of the California Vaqueros. She talks about all styles of riding (in the Western world) and how the kind of branched out from two main saddle types; Brida and Jinetta. One being for jousting type riding, used by heavily armored knights who needed a great deal of security in the saddle, and the other for warriors who were archers, and needed to be able to move freely in the saddle.


http://books.google.com/books?id=IaN-YaOMhX4C&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=bennet+brida+jineta&source=bl&ots=JxbXka6Tv8&sig=a7K3XcF_5gRV39eEFxuheuqOZJE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wU0kUebTJ6SGjAKlqYDIAg&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=bennet%20brida%20jineta&f=false


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## bsms

^^ Thanks.


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## tinyliny

I havne't been able to wade through it all. Just more detail than I really want.


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## COWCHICK77

tinyliny said:


> bsms, you might like to read the book by Dr. Deb Bennet called "The Conquerers". It's a very lengthy description of the history of the riding style that eventually evolved down into what is the styles that we might now call that of the California Vaqueros. She talks about all styles of riding (in the Western world) and how the kind of branched out from two main saddle types; Brida and Jinetta. One being for jousting type riding, used by heavily armored knights who needed a great deal of security in the saddle, and the other for warriors who were archers, and needed to be able to move freely in the saddle.
> 
> 
> Conquerors: The Roots of New World Horsemanship - Deb Bennett - Google Books


I think I will have to read that.... thanks for the suggestion!



Allison Finch said:


> OK, we can go back and forth to show different positions all day long. Bareback is a totally different subject (as in Greek friezes). However, even the cavalry recruitment posters showed Correct vs "Expedient".
> 
> It really doesn't matter. I don't consider your seat to be a very extreme example of a chair seat. I see a person protecting pieces and parts, more than anything.
> 
> As I stated earlier, many people use stirrup lengths that are so long it is very difficult to keep the leg back. You photos above also show people "reaching" for the stirrups as do some of mine. That stirrup length is not what many people do (or should) use today, IMO.
> 
> Spending LONG days in the saddle does encourage one to ride back on their bum. That does not mean it is better for the horse.


Just have to ask since I have been trying to "fix" my position...

I have been doing some riding bareback because I thought that I would not have anything to hold me in/out of position. I would be forced to balance correctly in order to ride effectively. 
Do you think that is a good way to self-medicate for a lack of a better term?


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## Allison Finch

I think there are many balance issues that can be improved by bareback riding. Heck, it is just good fun, too. However, I don't necessarily consider it a good way to fix bad equitation. It can still allow a great chair seat and knee grab (which can be a bad habit). It does teach you to center your balance, though. 

I like a good leg/seat position, as I believe it can allow for a much clearer and crisper communication with the leg and seat. A poor position with an emphasis on sitting back on the bum doesn't allow the flexibility of the lower back to be used or developed. That is crucial for creating a deep seat, IMO.

However, if the bulk of your leg aid is to kick when you want to go, with little else needed, any seat is just fine.

Have I ever used a chair seat? You bet! When I am on my tenth or eleventh hour in the saddle, my butt has explored every possible position it can find! LOL!


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## QHriderKE

I drew lines over a whole bunch of pictures of me...
I wish I had more images of me actually doing something, but it's hard to have someone to take pictures when everyone is on horseback working as well.




























And other pictures I have are at an angle, so I can't really draw lines on them that make sense


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## tinyliny

QHrider,

Your alignment is very good!


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## Golden Horse

tinyliny said:


> QHrider,
> 
> Your alignment is very good!


In which picture?

I would say one is good and two are off? :wink:


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## Lonestar22

Now I'm tempted to go draw lines on all my pictures. lol.


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## QHriderKE

The second one is deffs off, but it shows the line from elbow to bit. The first one isn't bad.

But, if you look, I'm in two different saddles. 

The second saddle is a rope saddle and it sets my feet forward like that. In every picture I have of me in that saddle, my feet are ahead of that shoulder/hip/heel line and it's aggravating!

But, in my barrel saddle, my leg comes under me.


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## Corporal

If you are truly going to be riding endurance I believe that the lengthy rides will adjust your legs to be under you, and you will ride more balanced. It isn't a matter of showing or what is popular. Riding shoulder/hip/heel makes it easier to ride, period. Bracing your feet in the stirrups helps you stop easily, but you are riding behind the motion if you go from a halt to a full gallop, something that QH's can do very well. (Arabs can do that, too--"Corporal" loved to take off, when asked.)
Don't care if you do, or you don't. I got in the habit and I trained myself out of a chair seat many years ago. I kept glancing down at my foot, and would pull it back under me any time my toe was poking forward. Granted, riding English, it's easier to post when your feet are underneath you.
After the first 10 miles of a race, you may find yourself dropping the stirrups and re-taking them many times, from fatigue.


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## clippityclop

JB, for what it is worth, yes you are in a chair seat but I hardly paid any attention because the background of the pic is amazing! Where the heck is that? I'm soooo jealous!

I ride in a wintec dressage - I do my distance conditioning and LD in it. If you know someone who has a WD that you can try, give it a go - let your stirrups out so that you can JUST put your heels down (barely) and you'll be able to get a really good feel of where you need to be.

How do you look with your big horn? Is it any better? From your amazing awesome cool background photo (LOL) you could probably get by with dropping your stirrups down two holes - see where that gets you.


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## jillybean19

clippityclop said:


> JB, for what it is worth, yes you are in a chair seat but I hardly paid any attention because the background of the pic is amazing! Where the heck is that? I'm soooo jealous!
> 
> I ride in a wintec dressage - I do my distance conditioning and LD in it. If you know someone who has a WD that you can try, give it a go - let your stirrups out so that you can JUST put your heels down (barely) and you'll be able to get a really good feel of where you need to be.
> 
> How do you look with your big horn? Is it any better? From your amazing awesome cool background photo (LOL) you could probably get by with dropping your stirrups down two holes - see where that gets you.


It's in City of Rocks, Almo, Idaho - the AERC Championship is going to be held there this year  It was by far my favorite ride. I felt like I'd stepped into the LOtR movies or something! And I didn't even see some of the prettiest parts! It would have been my favorite ride with just the terrain, but on top of that there were hot spring pools with showers 5 minutes down the road! Best. Ride. Ever.

I'm not riding at the moment (weather/wanting someone to come check my saddle for fit/need to focus on some ground work), but I'll post a picture ASAP. I already know it's too big for my butt (I'm getting a cover to help with that) and that I need to drop my stirrups down, so I'll post some pictures once I make those adjustments.


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## Sunny

I stopped reading at page 7, but I will actually say that I agree with BSMS for once.

I ride with a decent SHH alignment, maybe my heel a touch forward but only by an inch or so.
But when I ride with too-long stirrups and my feet are far forward, I can definitely feel that my back is SO much more loose and fluid with the horse than if I am in my normal position. I can't sit a trot to save my life with my usual stirrups, but I can with the "chair seat" and my horse will open up and move very freely.

I am hoping to start endurance soon and maybe I can find a happy medium within my position.


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