# Ban Horse Slaughter in US



## Speed Racer

If you're Canadian, why aren't you trying to have it banned in your_* own*_ country, instead of sticking your nose into the US's business? :?

For the record, the majority of people on this BB have no problem with reopening the plants here in the US.


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## bsms

trinasugar33 said:


> _I didn't know what forum to post this in so I'll do it here _
> 
> Hi, I'm trying to help out and pass around the petition to ban horse slaughter in the US. It breaks my heart...


Why do you think horse slaughter is bad?

BTW - all horse slaughter threads go in the horse protection forum.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

OP, I think that you will find that most horsemen and a good portion of the membership here is pro-slaughter. 



bsms said:


> BTW - all horse slaughter threads go in the horse protection forum.


I moved it bsms.


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## Cat

So you want to ban horse slaughter in the US so that more horses will be shipped to Canada for slaughter? Do you own a Canadian slaughter house or something and are worried your flow is going to slow down? That is the only reason I could see a Canadian caring more about slaughter houses in the US than in their own country.


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## Skipsfirstspike

I can't keep track of whether it is legal or not in the US! Well, you are welcome to continue sending your delicious horses up here to the great white north. And Kevin, you will never make me give up my toque. It is my right and duty as a Canadian to wear one!


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## DuffyDuck

BACK ON TOPIC away from aye, eh and igloos.. and popcorn... yum.

No.
What are you going to do with the horses that are sent to slaughter? Hope you have a nice big field and pennies to feed them, because I don't.

Can we not condense all these threads about the new thingy that was removed by Obama to make horse slaughter legal again? That way people don't have to repeat themselves... just a thought ;D


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## usandpets

Cat said:


> So you want to ban horse slaughter in the US so that more horses will be shipped to Canada for slaughter? Do you own a Canadian slaughter house or something and are worried your flow is going to slow down? That is the only reason I could see a Canadian caring more about slaughter houses in the US than in their own country.


 I had the same thought.


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## equiniphile

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-protection/ban-us-horse-slaughter-lifted-104858/
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-protection/%2Awarning%2A-graphic%2A-pasture-plate-video-105343/
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-protection/horse-lover-we-need-your-help-105142/
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-protection/horse-slaughter-back-u-s-105161/
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-protection/help-stop-horse-slaughter-america-104402/

All posted in the last two weeks or so. This is a hot topic on here, and the majority of us are in support of the new law.


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## tinyliny

It's a matter of supporting the lesser of two evils. None here WANT horses slaughtered, but without the availability of humane slaughter, the results are much worse. HOrse are left to starve slowly to death, or are sold to meat men who must then put them on overcrowded rigs to haul them to either Canada or Mexico, where slaughter is legal. The trip can be horrible for the animal, just horrible, and who can say how humanely they will be processed in Mexico? No insult to Mexico, but I am doubtful that the processing plants are much overseen by the govenrment.


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## VelvetsAB

_Actually Equiniphile, the "Horse Lover" thread is not about the ban. The person who posted that was looking for donations to help horses out in Egypt._


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## equiniphile

VelvetsAB said:


> _Actually Equiniphile, the "Horse Lover" thread is not about the ban. The person who posted that was looking for donations to help horses out in Egypt._


 My bad. Should have read it more thoroughly :wink:


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## VelvetsAB

_No worries. _


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## Spyder

VelvetsAB said:


> _Just to mention...a lot of stuff that goes on in the United States, sometimes directly affects what happens here in Canada. So while I can understand we (as Canadians) shouldn't be butting in, it still has the potential to be a valid concern._



Even more so now that a lot of Canadian companies have open shop or taken over existing companies in the US.

:happydance::happydance::happydance:


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## Remali

I don't post on here a whole lot, but I do agree with the OP (trinasugar) about the ban on horse slaughter. I do realize that not everyone agrees tho, and that's OK, we don't all have to agree on everything...


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## MySissyGirl

You think they should starve to death instead....that's way more humane!


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## bsms

Since this is a horse forum, and not one on religion or international relations, I have removed 60 off-topic posts, including a number that featured my scintillating wit. The other moderators have been notified, and they can move any or all of those posts back if they think appropriate.

A love of horses unites us. Almost anything else divides us. Please - lets focus on horses.


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## ohmyitschelle

_It's a real shame these threads are never ending... perhaps a pinned topic to Horse Protection's board page regarding that this topic is overdone would slow so many of these down? 

I'm personally pro slaughter... I've actually been to the slaughter house here and was definitely changed after the visit... but its a necessary evil to overpopulation, abused animals, and older horses too. 

It's a fantasy to believe that everything in life can end so happily... and slaughter is a reality that many horse lovers around the world have accepted._


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## Remali

Starve to death? What's wrong with euthanasia?


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## ~*~anebel~*~

Remali said:


> Starve to death? What's wrong with euthanasia?


 Many people who can't afford to or don't care to feed their horses also can't afford to or don't care to euth them either. Euthing costs money.

I would love to see a restriction on breeding of horses and harsh penalties for those "breeding without a license"...


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## BravadoThePony

Not to mention the issue of body disposal once the horse is euthanized. It's hundreds of dollars for just one horse. You would need millions of dollars to euthanize and destroy all the horses that go through slaughter every year.


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## Remali

I was actually refering to horse owners euthanizing their own horses. To me, it is part of being a responsible horse owner.... if a horse owner cannot afford medical care or euthanasia for their horses, maybe they shouldn't have so many horses.


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## Macslady

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Many people who can't afford to or don't care to feed their horses also can't afford to or don't care to euth them either. Euthing costs money.
> 
> I would love to see a restriction on breeding of horses and harsh penalties for those "breeding without a license"...


Wow why not? Let's get more government control over our daily lives to the point of eventually being told where we can live, what our jobs will be and how many children we can have. Once upon a time this country was based on freedoms not restrictions.

I personally think we are over governed enough at this time and really don't want them licensing me any more than they already do.


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## bsms

The average rancher in the western US would be pretty ****ed if told he needed to register with the government to raise his own horses. And the folks I've met in government dealing with horses (local county zoning) are so painfully STUPID about horses that I wouldn't want anyone in government making rules for horses.

Have you ever seen a zoning official tell a cowboy "I need to conceptualize what you mean by 'barbed wire fence'...what does it look like in my mind's eye?"

That was a quote from a Pima County official I overheard while trying to convince them to let me build a corral without first getting my land resurveyed.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

So its your right and freedom to breed poor quality animals with health problems, not take care of them and then complain when "all teh prettie horsehs" go to the slaughter house. Yep, very American ideology.. anyone with a conscious that thinks before they breed, 95% of horse owners, is contributing to 5% of the equine population boom. It's the 5% of people who's mares 'need a foal' that are 95% of the issue. Any decent legislation would not affect the 95% of responsible horse owners.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs

Anebel, we are normally pretty close to the same wavelength, but I have to disagree with you here. Even if I wasn't against the govt sticking their nose even farther into my business...

Who would they get to enforce the licensing and make sure that only licensed breeders were breeding? The cops already have their hands full and overflowing with the laws already in effect. Create more jobs to employ people to strictly monitor breeding? Where will the revenue come from to pay their salaries? Increase the taxes of people who don't even have horses? Will it come from the licensing fee of those who actually do go through the trouble of getting licensed? Will there be a tax of some sort for each mare bred or each stallion breeding? After all, the initial licensing fee, unless it was up in the thousands of dollars for each breeder and was an annual fee, wouldn't go far in paying even one salary.

I'm sure that someone _could_ come along and re-structure the entire govt budget and find the money to do it...but if they go to that much trouble, I'm sure they could find about a million other places to spend the money that are more practical and need it more...like the foster care system or the school system or the health care system.


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## demonwolfmoon

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> So its your right and freedom to breed poor quality animals with health problems, not take care of them and then complain when "all teh prettie horsehs" go to the slaughter house. Yep, very American ideology.. anyone with a conscious that thinks before they breed, 95% of horse owners, is contributing to 5% of the equine population boom. It's the 5% of people who's mares 'need a foal' that are 95% of the issue. Any decent legislation would not affect the 95% of responsible horse owners.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here's a thought! If all the decent horse owners boycotted buying horses from the crappy BYB, maybe they'd stop breeding crappy ill conformed, sick or unwanted horses? I mean honestly, there's some stupid people in this world, but some of this breeding is SUPPLY AND DEMAND. 

My horse Kiera was bred to be a "sports horse"...this was no stallion jumping the fence. Just a lady with a bunch of quarter horse mares and a black Perch stallion. She was so broke that she traded Kiera and her dam to the woman *I* bought her from as payment for some sort of services rendered, and they accepted since they figured they wouldn't get paid otherwise.
Fact of the matter is, that lady probably wouldn't have bred my horse if she didn't think there was a market for "Sports Horses"....

Or we could just walk up to the owners of these operations and give them an all-american punch in the face....or better yet, our stern disapproval (and subsequent withholding of the money). xD

ETS: I bought my horse from the second "owner"....I was unaware at the time of all the horse overpopulation/slaughter issues, but I guess I should have known given the state of cats and dogs in this economy. Even so, I'm glad that lady bred at least my fugly baby...but I'd never breed her!


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## bsms

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> So its your right and freedom to breed poor quality animals with health problems, not take care of them and then complain when "all teh prettie horsehs" go to the slaughter house...


I guess I'm missing where I complained about "when "all teh prettie horsehs" go to the slaughter house". And most of the ranch horses I've met have been fine. Two of my three horses have ranch time, and both seem uncommonly sound - more so than some $10,000 purebreds I've met.



~*~anebel~*~ said:


> ...Yep, very American ideology..


Why, thank you!


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## ~*~anebel~*~

How else do you see an end to the overpopulation problem, without slaughter then? China did it with people to control their population.
I think it would mostly be up to stallion owners to only breed to approved mares, and with an online system for registered horses all you would need is a registry number to get your certificate for that year (heck maybe registries would even deal with that) and then an application process for unregistered horses. For ranches and breeding farms (legitimately businesses) maybe a once every 5 years for all horses application. Policing would be restricted to unregistered stallions, however hopefully with a really good ad campaign a lot of stigma for backyard breeders could be created (think goveg.com type "shock value" posters).

Just a thought though... of course its not just going to be one idea that ends equine overpopulation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ~*~anebel~*~

bsms said:


> I guess I'm missing where I complained about "when "all teh prettie horsehs" go to the slaughter house". And most of the ranch horses I've met have been fine. Two of my three horses have ranch time, and both seem uncommonly sound - more so than some $10,000 purebreds I've met.
> 
> 
> 
> Why, thank you!


None if that post is in any way in reference to reputable legitimate businesses, like a ranch. It's about the thousands of Janes, Sallys and Susans who think their grade nags need a pretty baby and then it grows up to be a chronic reared because it was "cute" as a baby and now what does society do?

You're welcome. I'm sick of people in this nation not realizing that sometimes we have to make personal sacrifices for the greater good. If people refuse to self regulate (the way capitalism ideally works) then yes, it is in the scope of the government to regulate a business. Capitalism doesn't work perfectly in the real world because you can't fix stupid... I think getting rid of welfare might help that though...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms

From my perspective, there are a couple of drivers for the overpopulation.

1 - Fewer people want horses, but horses live a long time. All the surveys I've seen indicate the horse owning population is graying fast. But horses bred in 1990 are mostly still alive - and no one wants them. Their current owners do not, and no one wants to buy a 20 year old horse.

The mustang given to us may be fairly typical. He was bought for the husband. The husband turned out to be highly allergic to horses - and I guess no one thought to have him RIDE horses before buying one. The wife wants another kid, and sees her two horses as taking up too much time. So she had two horses to get rid of, and the instructor who knew the horses described the other horse as worthless.

20 years ago, he might have gone to a youngster. But in 2011, most youngsters prefer the Internet to horses. And while I didn't want a third horse, this one looks like a darn good match for us.

2 - The economy and feed situation is squeezing out a lot of recreational owners. If the owners of our new mustang pony could afford hay and boarding fees, they might have held on longer. But two horses at $325/month each was also killing their budget. And with hay in this part of AZ pushing $20/80 lb bale, it is going to get worse!

Although I don't like the idea of slaughter, I don't see many options. The current market glut is driven in part by breeding taking place in the 90s. Lord willing, the new mustang will be with us for 15 years, and my other two even longer (2026). Anyone want to forecast the horse market in 2026?

A horse bred in 2003 - during what I believe was a good market - can live until 2030+. 9 years from now, in 2020, at age 18, who is going to want him?

The problem is stupid people buying horses without ever thinking about how long a horse lives, or the expense of keeping them. That was why I fought against getting horses in my family - I view a horse as a 25 year investment.

Happily, I enjoy the horses and trying to learn to understand them and work with them. But in a society where half of the population has credit card debt of $10K and more because they don't think in advance, how do you solve the problem of stupid people buying horses they are not committed to?

If I knew the answer, I'd deserve a huge award from the horse world! Pity that I don't know the answer, and just cringe at the result. :evil: :evil: :evil:


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## tinyliny

One of the ways that the governement tries to keep the dog and cat population down is through lisecncing. If you must pay a fee to lisence you dog and cat, then you will (theoretically) think twice before adding them casually to your care. And penalizing those that do NOT lisence. That might be applied to horse breeding, but it would not say you cannot breed a horse, only that you must pay an annual lisencing fee for each animal owned or bred
. Then, that money (theoretically) goes toward the humane rescue and rehoming or euthanizing of unwanted , abandonned or abused animals, something mostly done by volunteer $ via Humane Society or SPCA.
Also, the more we put out the general attitude to not breed irresponsible, the more we can influence byb's. takes a long time, but it does happen.
Look at the campaign to spay and nueter pets. When I was a kid nobody spayed or nuetered. Now, it is the norm.


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## demonwolfmoon

tinyliny said:


> Look at the campaign to spay and nueter pets. When I was a kid nobody spayed or nuetered. Now, it is the norm.


Not here where I live in PA. They simply don't give a $%^& even though it's free.....
And who enforces licensing? I'd be willing to bet that they don't have the time nor the personnel, nor the funds to hire enough people to ensure that all the animals in the city/county are licensed and (minimally, since it's required) their rabies vax.

So...maybe it's meant to deter...but the question is, 'does it?"?


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## goneriding

As usual, penalize the responsible pet owners with licensing fees to pay for the idiots. Why do responsible people always end up paying? If they made it law that horses have to be licensed, do you honestly think that money would stay in the equine sector? Government will spend it on other BS. How are they going to enforce horse licensing? More taxpayer money.......Tired of paying for idiots that will continue being idiots. Tired of giving money to the government so they can just p**s it away, then turn around and find a way to get more.


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## usandpets

tinyliny said:


> One of the ways that the governement tries to keep the dog and cat population down is through lisecncing. If you must pay a fee to lisence you dog and cat, then you will (theoretically) think twice before adding them casually to your care. And penalizing those that do NOT lisence.


I disagree with that. First, it's not the government that requires licensing. It's the city ordinances. The only time they enforce it is when your pet goes to the pound or if someone complains about your pets. Shhh, don't tell anyone, but we have only licensed one of our dogs because she ended up in the pound. We weren't penalized but did have to license her to get her back.

You'll probably call me irresponsible because of that. Oh well. I'm not and I do take responsibility for our animals. They get their necessary vaccines and care. They actually get better care than I do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wyominggrandma

AKC tried to control BYB by making male be DNA'd after siring 7 litters in a lifetime and a female after 4 litters. They figured this would stop the puppy mills because they would have to spend more money on producing litters, plus the breeder having to register every litter first, etc. Well instead of helping stop the byb, the byb and puppy mills just made up their own kennel clubs and now register more than ever. 
Since nobody could force anyone to stop being puppy mills and byb, how in the world do you think the government can stop people from breeding horses? If a person can breed their mare to their stud or the neighbors down the street and figure they can make a few bucks, they really don't care about if its registered or not, neither does the buyer. A couple hundred bucks or free for a horse is much better than spending $2000 or more for a weanling of good breeding. 
Same as buying from a byb puppy. A couple of hundred bucks for a puppy sounds so much better than $1500 or more. 
The majority of the people who want a baby horse or grown horse want to spend as less as possible. They feel they are getting a good deal. Of course, you usually get what you pay for in medical expenses down the road.
It would be impossible to govern breeding of horses, just like its impossible to govern breeding of dogs. Nobody has time to go to every back road farm/ranch and see if they are breeding. Someone mentioned the licensing of dogs. Where I live, you have to license in the city, but not the county. So, if you live in the county, a person can have ten dogs, they don't care. 
This is a debate that can go on forever, which is has. Government can't keep people under control with drugs, guns, whatever. You really think they are going to worry about who is breeding garbage horses?
Not gonna happen. So, at least instead of starving or turning horses loose(yes, it happens all over the country) because a person doesn't want to spend the money to euthanize and bury if that is evn possible, they can send them to slaughter and end their life quickly. Is it the best answer, no. Do things happen at slaughter plants, yes. But its a part of life.


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## MySissyGirl

Remali said:


> Starve to death? What's wrong with euthanasia?


 Nothing....but I have seen so many horses starving out there it's sad...I've called on them and more than once since them dead in the pasture later....Seems better to send to slaughter than to have all these people out there starving their horses!


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## kevinshorses

And why should the government be able to tell me how I should breed my horse.


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## MyBoyPuck

I just hope this is used responsibly as an outlet for truly unwanted horses rather than an easy method of disposal for industries/disciplines who mass breed with the intention of just discarding the horses that don't measure up. 

Laws & licensing are only followed by those who were responsible in the first place which renders them pretty **** useless. You can't legislate responsibility.


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## Druydess

Some interesting, accurate info that challenges currently held beliefs..
VEW White Paper : Veterinarians for Equine Welfare


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## bubba13

That article is absolutely riddled with bias and inaccuracy. Too many grossly wrong "facts" to count. If they--and veterinarians, no less--hope to make a case for their opinion, they should have the decency to go about it honestly and not based on misguided emotion. This goes for whatever side of the fence they are on.


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## FIREBLADE

.
I am glad to see the ban was lifted a friend of mine found extra Horses in her pasture on 3 different occasions this year.
Prices of Horses in my area have fallen so far it is now more expensive to adopt a dog from the pound than to buy a good Horse.
Hay in my area is ridiculous as far as price and you can't give horses away.
As long as they have a handle on how they trans port and Slaughter to make it quick and less stressful I see no problem with it we need it.
To many Horses are off worse now than ever.


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## paintedpastures

Hmm nice that the OP has contributated to this discussion,seems to have just made her one post to the forum & left....


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## 2muchcoffeeman

Speed Racer said:


> If you're Canadian, why aren't you trying to have it banned in your_* own*_ country, instead of sticking your nose into the US's business? :?
> 
> For the record, the majority of people on this BB have no problem with reopening the plants here in the US.


Agree on both counts, and I was one of the people on the other side of the horse-slaughter-ban debate the first time around. I was wrong and anybody I debated the issue with on rec.equestrian gets a free "I told you so" for use anytime they wish.

The volume of horses exported to Canada for slaughter has increased close to 150 percent since the de facto ban was passed. The volume to Mexico is upwards of 660 percent ... and shall we talk about the number of older and/or ill horses simply abandoned by their owners since then?


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## wyominggrandma

just because a group of" Veterinarians" wrote that paper doesn't mean squat. There are" veterinarians" who support and back PETA and the HSUS, both groups who do not want anyone to own pets. There are "Veteranarians" who go by the new vaccine protocal brought up by AVMA, then there are the ones who will not do vaccinations every three years(for dogs) because they lose revenue each year. 
A "paper" is just that, a "paper" written with words on it.


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## AppaloosaLover88

In my eyes, horses are livestock. Yes... I have "my" horse and she is a pet, I would not want to see her sent to slaughter, but at the same time I also have a pet cow and we raise pigs. The cows and pigs are all food sources and while I love animals and always become attached to the new babies (so cute) they all have the same fate. I tend to look at horses the same way. While I don't eat horse meat (I might try it though if the opportunity ever presents itself) my horses have jobs to do. And at which point they can no longer perform at the required standard, it is time for them to move on. Economically it makes no sense to feed an animal that has no purpose here on the farm, and we are all about living economically here. I wouldn't sell my horse for slaughter personally, but if they end up there somehow, I understand. 

Yes, the BYB need to be reined in, but its not the place of the government to control who breeds what horses. I agree with the posters who said supply and demand. People just need to STOP buying the fugly horses. Easy. With that said, the BYB will continue to help the horse slaughter industry but should not affect the breeders who truly breed quality animals. Chances are we are not going to see a horse from a BYB winning any huge championships so anyone looking for a true performance horse won't be visiting the BYB anyway. 

Just my opinion, but we really do not need more government regulation.


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## SarahAnn

goneriding said:


> As usual, penalize the responsible pet owners with licensing fees to pay for the idiots. Why do responsible people always end up paying? If they made it law that horses have to be licensed, do you honestly think that money would stay in the equine sector? Government will spend it on other BS. How are they going to enforce horse licensing? More taxpayer money.......Tired of paying for idiots that will continue being idiots. Tired of giving money to the government so they can just p**s it away, then turn around and find a way to get more.


Sounds to me like you're wasting your time and energy nagging about things that a.) You have no control over or B.) You have no intention of actually DOING anything to change it. 

Talking and complaining gets you nowhere. And if our country is so bad, why do you live here? You're welcome to move somewhere else at any given time. 

I personally am utterly sick of people sitting around complaining about how awful this country is and how meal and terrible the government is. Its really not THAT bad or you folks wouldn't be living here. Instead of complaining, join a campaign group of some sort and DO SOMETHING about it. Nothing will ever change if people just sit around and TALK instead of going out and DOING.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## demonwolfmoon

SarahAnn said:


> Instead of complaining, join a campaign group of some sort and DO SOMETHING about it. Nothing will ever change if people just sit around and TALK instead of going out and DOING.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In all seriousness....we *NEED* to do something about it.


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## natisha

SarahAnn said:


> Sounds to me like you're wasting your time and energy nagging about things that a.) You have no control over or B.) You have no intention of actually DOING anything to change it.
> 
> Talking and complaining gets you nowhere. And if our country is so bad, why do you live here? You're welcome to move somewhere else at any given time.
> 
> I personally am utterly sick of people sitting around complaining about how awful this country is and how meal and terrible the government is. Its really not THAT bad or you folks wouldn't be living here. Instead of complaining, join a campaign group of some sort and DO SOMETHING about it. Nothing will ever change if people just sit around and TALK instead of going out and DOING.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't care for what the Government does either but I'm not going to give up on my Country & move away. I do vote, write many, many letter to our elected officials, I study issues & give heavily to those that feel the same way I do. I also follow up to see if promises are kept. 
The Gov. does **** away money-money taken from someone else. Money taken in for one cause is not earmarked only for that cause. 
Sorry to stray from the chipper topic.


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## Beauseant

paintedpastures said:


> Hmm nice that the OP has contributated to this discussion,seems to have just made her one post to the forum & left....


 
Maybe all the snarkiness scared her away! lol

Seriously, why don't we all JUST NOT REPSOND to these type of threads??? 

WHY waste time and energy on "go nowhere" debates like this where everyone talks past each other and gets snarky??

*After all, you all aren't going to change the way I think and I am not going to change the way YOU think and NONE of us are going to change the way the government thinks!!*


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## SarahAnn

^^ like.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Celeste

I wonder why people that are not Americans on this forum are so interested in promoting horse slaughter here in America. What is it to you?


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## bubba13

^ Who would that be?


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## wyominggrandma

Plenty of Americans on this forum who are pro slaughter. 
There have to be at least ten threads on the slaughter houses and it seems more each day. Guess everyone wants to get on the bandwagon of starting their own thread about the same thing...


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## Gremmy

Was this debate ever exclusive to the United States? I'm sure you've noticed that in Canada we have a pretty active slaughter industry, complete with our own anti-slaughter movement. I'm pretty sure I have every right to express my opinion about something that happens on an international level.

As to having an opinion on specifically U.S. slaughter practices, as long as unwanted American horses are being shipped up here for slaughter because there's no outlet for them in the states, I'm happily going to voice my opinion on it


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