# Is it possible to make money as a small-time breeder?



## Xanadu (Sep 11, 2007)

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## nurse_in_boots (Aug 29, 2007)

My dad used to say that the only way to make a million dollars in the horse business is to start with two million. It is very difficult to make money breeding, whether you are on a small scale or a large one. Breeding is a huge responsibility - you are creating a life and these days there are more horses than their are owners, hence the slaughter issues and all the rescues out there. I had considered getting into breeding at one time but I only had to go to one horse auction to cure me of that. I could not imaging a horse that I created suffering like many auction horses do, and believe me they are not all plug horses, there are MANY well bred and nice horses that come to a bad end. OK, I'll get off my soapbox, but IMO, leave breeding to the pros.


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## Sara (Jul 6, 2007)

I definitely agree with Nurse (love that quote by your dad). It is very hard to make money as a breeder. My friend is a small-time breeder and she also still has a full-time job; her breeding operation pretty much pays for itself, but she doesn't make an appreciable amount of profit. She does it because she loves the breed, but its still a hobby. I know you are still doing a lot of research, but ask yourself these questions and be as honest as you can with yourself:

- What can I offer that will make people want to buy my foals instead of Jane Doe's foals down the road? Are my mares proven winners in competition? Do they have exceptional bloodlines? Do they have exceptional conformation? Are they an unusual or highly sought-after breed? Will my babies be extensively handled and trained before they are weaned?

- Is there a thriving market for my breed: will I be able to charge prices that will cover the cost of breeding and keeping mares and foals? Is there enough demand for my breed that I will be able to guarantee (within a reasonable degree) that my foals are going to good responsible owners? Is there enough demand that I will be able to sell all of my foals to responsible owners every year?

- Do I have the time and/or manpower to run a breeding operation? Will I be able to juggle breed/bloodline research, multiple vet visits, late night runs to the airport to pick up air-shipped semen, basic ground training with foals, basic farm maintenance, AND a full-time job?


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## Xanadu (Sep 11, 2007)

Those are good points, Nurse in Boots. I agree with you about not bringing any unwanted horses into the world. The breeding I'm going to be doing is not irresponsible. I'm using well-bred broodmares and proven stallions (so far I haven't paid less than $1000 for a stud fee). And I will only be breeding like two to four babies a year. That's not many in the large scheme of things. 

The baby we've been raising this year is so good. So many people who've met her have fallen in love with her. The photographer at her inspection said that she would have loved to have bought her and passed her picture on to all her horsey friends in case any of them are interested. Our farrier is a roper and said he was going to buy her and make her the first warmblood to be a rope horse. He was kidding but he really likes her. I think part of it is that we've done such a good job handling her and raising her. She will make a really nice horse for someone and part of that is her breeding and part of it is the way we've raised her. 

My daughter shows in hunter/jumper. We just spent several months looking for a decent show horse that we could afford. Finding one in our price range was not easy, and he has his issues. It's not always easy to find a good horse.

However, I won't just be breeding. I'm also going to buy young horses to raise, put some basic training on them and sell. And I'd like to have "project" horses as well. Those might be horses I buy at auction who need a little work. The goal would be to work with them and get them going well and then sell them.

I'm keeping my options open. 

Thank you for your input, Nurses In Boots. I do respect what you have to say and see why you would feel that way. I get so angry when I hear of situations where people treat their animals like used toilet paper. grrrrrr :evil:


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## Xanadu (Sep 11, 2007)

Sara... great questions! 

Yes, I have asked myself those questions.

As for having the time, I do not work outside the home. I'm a stay at home mom. My job is the kids and the horses. My kids are getting older and more independent (13 and 11) and my husband is extremely supportive. He's the one who is pushing me to start my own business and he is okay with all the time I spend with the horses. He helps out a lot with the horses too.


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## Sara (Jul 6, 2007)

It sounds like you're putting a lot of thought into it, I wish you luck

My friend usually rents a teaser pony during the breeding season, they've always had a shetland or mini stallion for the summer. They are usually a little easier on the stall boards


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## Xanadu (Sep 11, 2007)

Thanks Sara.  

I guess I should add that when I say make money, I don't mean like I need to support my family on this money. What I want to do is help pay for my daughter's showing. It's very expensive, and if I could make some money selling horses, it would certainly help with our horsey expenses. :wink:


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## eltinseltown (Aug 27, 2007)

*regarding business in breeding*

I have to agree with the other ones. There is a ton of horses out there and unless you have a line of world champions or show a ton you will probobly just break even. Also to remember there is alot of good quality horses that end up in slaughter. I recently bred my Tin Man mare to stud that has alot of points. I have had my mare since she was 6 months old and I love the personality of the mare and stud. But I am keeping the baby and it will be the last horse I will own, we have five with one on the way. I have one registered pinto I picked up for way cheap at a sale, and she rides down the rode and does anything you want, the rest I paid 9,000.00 and up for bloodlines. There is alot of choices to make I just know there are alot of good horses out there that dont have a chance.[/b]


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## Xanadu (Sep 11, 2007)

I guess I'm confused. If there are so many good horses out there going to slaughter, then why did you breed your mare? Yet you tell me not to breed. :? 

Everyone has their opinion, and it seems that we all can justify what we want when it's what WE want.


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## nurse_in_boots (Aug 29, 2007)

I think the difference is that you say you intend to breed yearly for profit, whereas others might breed once for a horse they intend to keep forever. Huge difference in my book. My Arab pictured left was a stallion until age 16, mainly because my Dad was one of those guys that would not neuter male dogs and did not want to geld a stallion. Luckily, he was very well-behaved and it was not an issue. He bred three mares in his life. Two belonged to a close friend of mine who adored him. She still has the resulting foals who are adults now - they have a home for life. The third mare was mine. I gave the resulting filly to a close friend when I started nursing school because she was ready to train and I had no time for her. She is now preparing to be an exceptional endurance horse. She has a "forever home" and if anything happens she will come back to me, no questions asked. None of these horses will end up in an auction, but when you breed for profit, you never know.

I gelded my horse when my father passed away because as much as I loved my Dad, I knew he was wrong for his reasons on keeping him a stud, and I knew my horse would have a happier life as a gelding. He is currently enjoying retirement in his paddock with my 2 other horses (geldings) and is truly a much happier gelding. My only regret is that I did not so it sooner, but I knew it would break my Dad's heart.


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## Xanadu (Sep 11, 2007)

I do understand what you're saying Nurse_In_Boots. I understand your opinion that breeding just brings more horses into a world where there are already plenty to be had. 

So my point is, why do *you* breed when you want a horse to keep forever instead of going out and getting one of these perfectly good horses from the auction? Both you and eltinseltown have done this, and yet you both say there are plenty of good horses out there. In my opinion, you're not backing up your argument.

Someone said in another post that there are horses that go to auction because nobody wants them. They are lame, or too old, or untrainable, etc. I'm trying to breed horses that are special. And I believe part of it will be in the breeding and part of it will be in the upbringing. I will breed horses that are athletic, have good minds, good conformation, good temperaments and are pretty. I will sell them halter-trained, able to load in a trailer, able to be lead, bathed, clipped, tied, stand for the farrier, etc. Isn't that what people are looking for in a horse? (btw, the baby I raised this year is 4 months old and is already trained to do all those things, and more)

Anyway, again, I respect your opinion, but I do not necessarily agree with it. That's okay. You don't agree with me, and that's okay too. That's what makes the world go 'round. :wink:


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## nurse_in_boots (Aug 29, 2007)

I have done my share of rescue, believe me. I bred my friend's mares for free - no profit on my part - she could not have afforded to buy the quality of horses she ended up with. As for the one foal I bred for myself - sentimental reasons. I have had this horse since he was two - 18 years to date. He is getting older - I wanted a part of him to live on. I fully intended on keeping the foal but put her welfare before my own desires and gave her away (again, no $$, see the theme here?) I could have sold the filly for several thousand and helped tremendously with my tuition, but my priority was seeing that she has a good home and is taken care of. I have never brought a horse into the world for my own financial gain.


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## [email protected] (Sep 14, 2007)

If I may point out Nurse,that if you charge money for your foal,and sell him/her for a high price, the owner will be sure to take care of a horse they had to pay an amount of money for,although I'm sure you made sure the buyer was going to take good care of your foal, and you probably knew them.....


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## nurse_in_boots (Aug 29, 2007)

Actually the highest priced horses I've known led the saddest lives. Lived in a 12x12 stall, no turnout because they were too valuable to risk them getting hurt, developed bad habits like cribbing or weaving. I worked at a very well known Arab farm when I was in college (produced the Nat'l Champ stallion a few years back). Show Arabs, especially halter ones, are often mistreated in and out of the ring in an effort to get them to have that animated look everyone wants. People who saw my filly always said she should halter. No way - not gonna let that happen. Inevitably when these expensive horses break down in the legs or start having GI problems or for whatever reason are no longer useful, they get dumped at sales. 

The lady I gave her to I have known for many years. I have seen the way she takes care of horses and I am confident that my filly will have whatever she needs and be treated with respect. If she were no longer useful, she would be a pasture ornament, not shipped to be sold to the highest bidder.


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## TxHorseMom (Mar 4, 2007)

I am sad to say that my husband and I are getting out of the breeding business.  We have a small breeding ranch and breed a few very good horses. Unfortunately with the market being what it is, I have found that we are spending more and more $$ and making less of a profit (as in none really when it's all said and done.) We are going to geld our Paint stallion and our Palomino stallion prospect and at this time we are only keeping our personal riding horses.

I suppose it is possible to make money doing it, but, I found that I made some decisions with my heart instead of my head. Although I can't say I would really change anything I did, because it was the best for my "babies".

It is my hope that in the next 5 years or so the market will change upwards again. If it does, I hope to do it again. I truly enjoy it. But it doesn't make sense (for us) to "hang on" for another 5 years in the hopes of it improving.

We are going to concentrate on upgrading our facility in the hopes of increasing the boarding end of the business at this time. (if not, then we'll just have a really nice place! :wink: )

I don't agree with the fact that you only have to have million dollar horses to make money. I think that there will always be a market for decent bred, well trained horses. But, we've lost our trainer, and both my hubby and I work full time and just can't dedicate enough time to the babies to do it properly. And for me, if I can't do it the right way, I won't do it at all.

I wish you luck in your business and if you have any questions, please feel free to ask me.


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## [email protected] (Sep 14, 2007)

I'm soory about that! I hope the market gets better soon!


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## Frog (May 24, 2007)

I breed purely for me. Unfortunately I am not interested in buying another persons problems, sounds harsh I know. I have and will consider picking up broodmares only if as mentioned, they are something special.

As for your breeding for gain question, go for it. I would not however breed very many to start off with as eventhough your first is well recieved by people who to say if you breed 5 the next time, they will all be the same quality. That's the breeding game.
But a hobby that brings in some extra cash is worth it. You mentioned that you intend on bringing on young/problem horses as well, this I would recommend more than breeding, more work to be sure, but people will learn about you more by this than breeding and may be inclined to bring horses to you either to train and sell for them or to help fix problems.

As with anything in life you have to be really good to get a head, being mediocre will get you nowhere. You just have to be your hashest critic and assess yourself.


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## prettypalfrey (Mar 12, 2007)

I just want to say good luck with everything. I would eventually like to have a small breeding facility (2-4 babies a year) of select qh. I wish you luck not falling in love with all the babies, that is my fear. I love baby anything. Oh you should get "Equine Reproductive Physiology, Breeding and Stud Management. I am taking courses through the university of guelph and this is one of the books they use.


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## Xanadu (Sep 11, 2007)

TxHorseMom... sorry to hear that you're having to give up something you love. That's a bummer. Hopefully the boarding end of it will work out better for you. It will at least be fun to make improvements at your place!

Thanks Frog and prettypalfrey for the words of encouragement.

As for not falling in love with the babies, that will be hard. I'm hoping that we'll be able to keep in touch with their new owners and hear how they're coming along. 

I will look for that book. Thanks. I've been researching books online so it's nice to hear of one that's a good one.

I don't plan on breeding many to start off with. We had one baby this year, none coming next year, and our plan is to have two the year after that. After that... we'll see. I'm just trying to keep an open mind and see where this goes. Like you said, if we can have some cash coming in instead of only going out when it comes to these horses, then that would be great.


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## mrscavendish (Sep 24, 2007)

Xanadu said:


> I guess I'm confused. If there are so many good horses out there going to slaughter, then why did you breed your mare? Yet you tell me not to breed. :?
> 
> Everyone has their opinion, and it seems that we all can justify what we want when it's what WE want.


i can understand your confusion. i think some people have an opinion and are pushing it onto other people.

yes, there are a lot of horses out there awaiting and untimely end for one reason or another. this is truly sad and if there was a fix for this problem it would truly be amazing but unfortunately it is something that is almost impossible to eradicate due to the fact that no matter how much preaching is done about this and that, there are still a huge number of dodgy breeders/owners out there who will always breed unreasonable quantities of average quality horses. its like the PETA people who say only to buy dogs from the pound and outlaw selling puppies in pet shops etc. yeah thats fantastic if you want an old dog with possible behaviour problems. but many people want a purebred pup that they can grow with and train etc. where does this leave responsible breeders? stuck in a barrage of reproach for wanting to breed a couple of good quality horses each year.

did she ever say anywhere that she would just advertise them in the paper and sell them off to any joe blow?? no! so how can anyone assume she is not going to be responsible with the foals. is any one person that breeds a small amount to sell to 'forever homes' any better than the next?? NO! certainly not. 

to the original poster again, if you feel you have the means to breed and the chance of selling foals to people who are not going to see them end up at slaughter houses etc then go for your life. ignore the 'high-horsers'. by that i mean, ignore the people that get up on their high horse about things and tell everyone not to do the things they do themselves. 

enjoy


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## nurse_in_boots (Aug 29, 2007)

She asked for an opinion, we provided one. Far from "pushing" as I see it. It also seems that the person who resorts to put-downs and name calling is the one who needs to get off her high horse.


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## mrscavendish (Sep 24, 2007)

nurse_in_boots said:


> She asked for an opinion, we provided one. Far from "pushing" as I see it. It also seems that the person who resorts to put-downs and name calling is the one who needs to get off her high horse.


well i suppose we have a different view of what pushing opinions means. and please, show me where i put anyone down or called anyone a name.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

My first stop would be to a tax accountant. I'm not sure but I think you have to have at least 2 foals a year to be tax deductable. If you think you have a market for your foals and the expertice to train them you could always try it for a year or 2. The only down side would be you could end up with more horses than you can afford to keep or keep ridden.


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## misita (Oct 12, 2007)

Xanadu. Breeding can be alot of fun. Go very slow. Get a very clear vision of what you want to breed before you start. You may consider buying a couple older mares that are proven but be careful with the bloodlines. Very well bred babies are selling for fairly low prices right now. You can get Premium Oldenburg and Hanoverian babies with top bloodlines for between $7,000-$8,500. Many people are asking more but many of them are not selling their babies. Before you buy a mare, make sure she is already approved for breeding with whatever registry you are wanting to deal with. Don't take chances. Babies who can't be fully registered will not capture a descent price and may be hard to sell at all. Whichever breed you decide on, breed top bloodlines. Don't buy a mare just because she's a lower price. It costs just as much to breed and raise a top foal as one who you can't register.

When picking a stallion, find a stallion owner who is willing to honestly help you determine if your mare is a good match for their stallion. Take a honest inventory of your mare before picking a stallion. They all have weaknesses. As with most of us horse people, you'll probably need some good friends to help with this evaluation since we have trouble seeing past our own horses strengths. Nothing personal, I'm just as bad, probably worse than most.

Do as much as you can yourself. Try not to hire anything out that you can do yourself. Before you get any farther involved than you are right now, I would take a breeding class.
www.equine-reproduction.com has excellent classes and they travel around the country so you may be able to get a 2 or 3 day class fairly close to you. That would be my first next step.

Horses can and do end up in terrible situations if they're feral horses or million $$$ horses.  You do have a added responsibility to try to sell these horses to good homes. Most people I've sold babies to have been very good homes.

Good luck and have fun. Breeding is wonderful, just go slow and do a little more research before diving in. Don't take on any more horses than you can afford to support by yourself. It can take time to sell the babies. So be prepared, you may be feeding them for awhile.  

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net


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## Xanadu (Sep 11, 2007)

Thank you, misita. I appreciate the advice. 

Right now we have our baby for sale, but I'm not in a rush. We actually think we'll probably end up keeping her and backing her. We'll probably have our daughter do some light training on her and showing her when she's (the filly) old enough. By then, our daughter will be 16 or 17 and more than ready for that challenge. 

We definitely plan to take it slow. I don't plan to breed more horses than I'm willing to keep and train ourselves. This has been a great learning experience for us and especially for our daughter. She is getting a great education through all this. She has been wanting a horse or pony she can bring up and train herself.

We will be getting at least one more broodmare, especially since we may have lost our current one (you'll have to see my other post regarding colic surgery). She may be relegated to pasture ornament and light trail horse from now on. She has well-known bloodlines and we just took her last month to the RPSI inspection to have our baby inspected and she made the Main Mare Book. They said we should definitely breed her again. Again, as I said, that point may be moot.

I have a quarter horse mare who comes from top bloodlines, but she's my personal horse and I haven't decided if I want to breed her or not. (she was a broodmare when we bought her) She's the buckskin in this avatar (not the best picture). Her daddy is Zips Chocolate Chip and her mom comes from the Skip Sioux line.

I do know how important bloodlines are and I've been doing my research on the ones I'm interested in. We have a quarter horse gelding who has drop dead gorgeous conformation and lots of blood in his lineage. It's almost a shame they gelded him. We get compliments on him from seasoned horsepeople everywhere we go. I've been looking for horses with similar blood because he is so gorgeous and has such a good mind. He's only five and we've been able to ride him bareback and with a rope and halter through a show ground last year when he was four. He's a phenomenal horse. 

Anyway... I've gone off on enough tangents now!! :roll: 

Thanks again for the advice. Keep it coming!!


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## misita (Oct 12, 2007)

One other thing just popped into my mind that might be beneficial to you. It seems babies either sell as weanlings or not until they're over 3 and backed. I have no idea why this is. But it seems weanlings fetch as good of prices, or close to, those of just backed horses. But you can see the huge amount of money you must put into your horses by the time their 3 and backed. I try to sell all my foals before they hit the ground or as weanlings, even if I have to come down on the price. It's just too expensive to keep them until they're 3. Unless you get that special one you want to keep forever.

Your right about breeding being a fabulous family adventure. Especially if all involved love horses. :wink: 

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net


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## Xanadu (Sep 11, 2007)

In that case, do you have any advice on the best way to market her? So far, I only have her advertised on Dreamhorse. I don't know anyone around here who buys weanlings. We have a local horse paper that I could advertise her in... I haven't tried that yet. 

The reason I advertised her on Dreamhorse is because the woman I bought the broodmare from advertises all her babies on Dreamhorse. She also has her own website, which we don't have yet. Since I only have one baby to sell at this point, I figure it's a little early to start a website yet. But we will do that eventually.


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## Xanadu (Sep 11, 2007)

Oh, and here is the link to her ad. 

http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1094374

If you have any input, feel free.


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## misita (Oct 12, 2007)

Oh my gosh!! She is darling!  I would advertise her everywhere and at this time of year I would keep the price down. It looks like she's already reasonably priced. She's lovely.

you can advertise on 

www.equine.com
www.warmbloods-for-sale.com
www.agdirect.com
www.bayequest.com and all the sister sites which I think are free for first time users. They're in other States but people often ship babies if your baby has what they're looking for.

Some of these sites like equine.com and warmbloods-for-sale.com, you can update the ad daily or every other day to keep your add on the front page. There's lots of horses for sale so you need to keep her up front.

Also, some stallion owners offer their breeders support by having a page where you can list you baby on their web-site. You might want to ask the stallion owner if he does that. Not all do.

Good luck!

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net


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## funchy (Nov 11, 2006)

Sorry if I am bringing up an older topic. I just noticed the post. The answer is that in the US it's almost impossible to make a living breeding. 

I'm friends with a local registered sporthorse breeder ($8-$15,000 foals) and another who is a Friesian breeder ($10-15,000 foals). Both are long-time breeders, carefully built up their herd and clientele, and do everything right. They research the stallions, get the mares inspected, and don't breed constantly. Neither makes much money at it and they're happy to break even. If you're going to breed, do it because you love the horses and want to improve the breed, but don't do it expecting to make $$$. All it takes is for one foal to have a major problem or the mare to colic or founder, and it can cost thousands at the vet hospital, wiping out all your profits for the breeding. 

One suggestion I would have is to stick to the quality horses such as the beautiful "Esprit" horse that was posted. There is a huge problem with overbreeding the less expensive horses, and the result is HEALTHY pregnant mares and foals sold to the abbatoir bred in such huge quantity & have no acheivements. In my opinion, there_ is_ a market for performance horses with good conformation & with parents who are achieving things. Definitely take your little ones to breed inspections and/or halter classes. It's not only good experience for them, it helps build their horsey 'resume' so they're more desirable.

To market, post the ad on all the horse internet sites. For sites you're not sure of, do the free text ad. If someone is really interested, they will ask for photos & more info. Also make a nice flyer for her and when you take her to the shows & breed inspection, hand it out & hang it on her stall. Join your breed associations to network & find sales leads. You don't have to start a whole breeding web site, but you can get a free hosting account and make a nice page for this girl. Add photos, pedigree, videos, etc. (youtube is a great place to store videos) 

If it were me, I'd find a good breeder to mentor under. They can tell you who the best repro vets in your area are, if it's worth it to do your own AI, marketing tips, stallions to avoid, best shows, whatever. And you'd have someone good to call for help, instead of having to call the vet out every time there is a question. Perhaps you can get a p/t job working for one and learning the ropes?


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## Deb (Feb 12, 2008)

[Someone said in another post that there are horses that go to auction because nobody wants them. They are lame, or too old, or untrainable, etc. I'm trying to breed horses that are special.]


The horse that go to slaughter were intended by some breeder, to be special. They are not all old, they are not all untrainable. They are the thousands of race horses who just weren't fast enough. They are the pets of children, whose parents (and the kids) got bored with them. You are right, there did come a point where they were not wanted, but at one point, before their little hoofies hit the ground, somebody did want them. 

Somebody here said she didn't want to buy someone elses problem. What about making up for someone elses lack of compassion?


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

Why would you want to add to the problem of horse overpopulation? I can see and more or less understand how some people are attached to some horses and want to breed (tho I dont really agree with that either) but why would you try to start a breeding business up (especially with your lack of experience) and add on to the problem. Have you read the recent headlines, horses going by truck loads to slaughter houses?

Why not look around and get a find a foal you really like instead of producing more animals?

There are soooo many differente equine careers you get involved in that would not add to a problem we have had for years.

Cheers


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## Ride4Life (Nov 3, 2007)

hmm if your going 2 breed horses i would try to breed horses that are pretty rare. like it would be kind of expensive to start out but it could help the breed. like you could breed kisber felvers, gypsy vanners, or newfoundland ponys..


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

or Importing Merens horses from France :wink: 8)


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## Ride4Life (Nov 3, 2007)

hmmm ive always wanted 2 have a akal teke or w/e lol if you breed them im buying 1 of the foals!


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## daroczy (Feb 14, 2008)

Ride4Life said:


> hmmm ive always wanted 2 have a akal teke or w/e lol if you breed them im buying 1 of the foals!


How do you like mine one?


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## Ride4Life (Nov 3, 2007)

awww hes adorable! people say they are weird shaped and ugly but i really like em!


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## daroczy (Feb 14, 2008)

Thanks, 
she's a mare of Krador 3003, a turcmenic imported stallion. But I have to tell you that akhals are very-very hard to ride on. If you won't hurt about a joke, I might tell it seems like your nickname: "Ride for life" when riding on them. They are sensitive but willful, you have to be very-very consequent with them., they need a very good rider. But their back and movement is excellent, comfortable and beautiful. We use this one for showjumping, she jumps excellent, but she is unstoppable in galopping after jumping. She is just running and running in galopp even 2 hours without stopping. She never gets tired.


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## Ride4Life (Nov 3, 2007)

o woww. thats kinda scary lol


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