# Bitless Bridles - a personal experience.



## luvs2ride1979

You might try returning it. They seem like they stand behind their products.

I just got one of the Nurtural bridles myself. My horses both go very well in a copy of the Dr Cook bitless bridle, but it's about to die and the Nutural bridles were cheaper and have had good reviews from most people. I'll let you know how my horses do in them next week . 

You do have to work with your horse on the ground first with any new bridle or bit, so he understands to give to the pressure and is okay with it. That said, it could have just rubbed him the wrong way, or maybe he had a tender spot somewhere? Does he have his wolf teeth still?


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## JustDressageIt

I work at the tack shop and this was a sample bridle, so I never paid for it, and will be returning it pronto. 
I have talked to a few people in my barn and have had similar reviews of it. 

Edited to add: it is nothing physical. His vet check was less than a month ago and he passed with flying colors. 

I'm positive it's not just him, I've heard similar reviews... I'm just stunned. Out of all the horses I've owned, he was the one I thought would be okay with this. I have ridden him in a halter before, so it must just be the mechanism of the bitless contraption.

Again, as soon as I put the bit back in his mouth he was working beautifully.


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## FGRanch

I've heard the same thing from more than one person. I've never tried it myself but from all the stuff I've heard about it I don't think I ever will.


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## JustDressageIt

FehrGroundRanch said:


> I've heard the same thing from more than one person. I've never tried it myself but from all the stuff I've heard about it I don't think I ever will.


 
Tiff, I am and was not impressed in the least. He reacted like he was in pain!


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## Vidaloco

I had sort of the same reaction from Vida JDI. Enough that I took her home and put her bit back in. She is ridden western of course with no nose pressure, so I'm sure that was one of the many strange sensations for her. 
I'm glad to hear you had some difficulties with it too. Makes me feel a little better. :?


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## my2geldings

JustDressageIt said:


> So our tack shop just started carrying "Nurtural Horse" bitless bridles. I decided to try one just to see what it was like, and to see if Denny liked it at all.
> Denny is an OTTB that ran his last race just over 2 months ago. His re-training has come VERY very far, and is working well at a w/t/c and is starting lateral movements.
> He has also been off for 4 weeks due to an injury, so this was my second ride post-injury.
> 
> I started him off in a bit, just because I knew he was feelin' good. His warmup was typical, and he was working through himself at all 3 gaits, so I decided to switch to the bitless.
> Never have I seen such a reaction from a horse!
> My sweet-natured, easy-going gelding turned into this high-headed, not-sure-what-you-want, sketchy TB. He understood "whoa" and that's about it. He would not stay on the track (along the fenceline) even though this had not been a problem prior. He got this really worried expression on his face and just would not co-operate.
> The trot was worse. He pinned his ears, started swishing his tail, and got really irritated.
> Against my better judgement, I asked him to canter. The first few strides went fine... then he came off the track, so I asked him back over with my hand and leg, and he blew up. He bucked and spun, and I let him have it.
> So I decided enough was enough; I made him walk and trot with the bitless again, then switched back over to my bitted bridle.
> Once I switched back, he was an angel once again - he started working through his back, and was listening just fine. I went through all three paces without so much as a hiccup.
> 
> So that is my personal experience. Now thinking about the mechanics of this bitless bridle, I think it actually applies pressure so differently from a bit that some horses will hate it. The noseband had rubber on it, so it wouldn't slip - but in that, there was no movement.
> Denny had such a strong negative reaction that I am very disappointed in the product. I was actually looking forward to having something positive to say about it! (Cuz now I have to sell it without my personal account and emotions getting in the way!)
> 
> So that's my verdict.


Funny you started that thread because I just posted a video on Canadians with a lady who rode her Canadian with one of those bloody things. Looked like nothing but a messy ride.


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## Zab

I havn't used it myself, I don't like how it works. It squeeses the horses head together and as I see it, that should mostly be confusing.
But some horses that has problems with normal bits might prefer the bitless bridle.

I prefer other bitless alternatives to, like muserola, sidepull, riding cavesson, that gives similiar signals as a snaffle, or hackamores, working like a curb.

The horse in the video didn't seem too satisfied with the bitless bridle, but of course I can't know how it usually acts.

It's funny how amazed people are that you can ride without a bit.. when it's really not that special or hard.


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## ponyboy

Did you read their web site? The Nurtural is supposed to be significantly stronger than the original Bitless Bridle.


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## HorsesAreForever

If you just throw a new peice of equitment on a horse that they are just not use to of course there gonna react weirdly to it. I Just got my bitless today hopefull ill get some video and see what you think.


What kind of bitless did you use?? 


Ive NEVER once in my life seen or heard of a horse reacting to a bitless like that in my life..


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## JustDressageIt

Vida - makes me feel better that I'm not the only one with this reaction. Now that I mention this to people appearantly it's not an uncommon response.

M2G - we got a demo video to play in our DVD player at work... man is it awful!! I can't believe it! It shows horses bucking, bolting, and just being rude. They also showcase an "upper level" dressage horse (terrible mover) that was literally three-legged lame.
I have not seen a single horse in any Nurtural Horse bitless bridle work well.

Zab - I agree. I'd prefer a mechanical hack to this contraption.
_"It's funny how amazed people are that you can ride without a bit.. when it's really not that special or hard."_
-- I COMPLETELY agree! I keep saying to people that I am NOT impressed just because a horse is "bitless." Yay, you can turn *woohoo.* I'm impressed by any horse working WELL, regardless of what's in its mouth.
I've ridden Denny with a halter just fine.. does that make me speshul?
Now something that's cool is riding an upper level horse bitless and bareback, and feeling the power firsthand... no, I'm not saying I expected anyone to go "wow" at it, I'm just saying it was an amazing feeling. 

PonyBoy - No I didn't take the time to read their website... and it doesn't come as a shock. I will wander over there and take a look, thanks for the tip.

HAF - if you read my post, I stated I used a Nurtural Horse bitless. I did let him get used to it - he had it on while I was grooming, I introduced the idea of left and right on the ground, and I STILL got that reaction. 
I did NOT just slap it on and expect a miracle. 
Appearantly I'm not the only one with this reaction, if you have read the posts from FGR and Vida. 



Once again, I had terrible results. I have not seen one video or example of any horse going well in this bitless bridle contraption. Each and every one has travelled hollow and not working through its body. 

Again, Denny reacted like he was in pain; pain to a product whose "selling point" is to never make your horse feel the pain of a bit again.


Edited to Add:
I spoke to my barn owner after that "experience" and she said the exact same thing.. the one gelding she tried it on reacted very much the same way as Denny


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## HorsesAreForever

i read your post and im not sure why any horse would react like that.. im useing a parelli hackamore. Tomorrow will be the first time I ever ride her in it so dont exspect to much.


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## JustDressageIt

Because it uses completely different pressure points. If you look at how it's made, you'll see how the design differs completely and totally from using a bitted bridle. There is pressure over the whole head with use of the reins, as opposed to just direct pressure to the mouth with a bit. 

Like I said, I'm not the only one that has had such a reaction; this is not a-typical like I thought it was. The more people I talk to, the more I hear comments like mine.

Please don't fight with me on this one... I can guarantee you I am not making this up. I really wish I had a positive reaction from the bitless bridle, because now I have to sell it out of my store... gah.

Is this the "hackamore" you're getting? If so, it is nothing like the one I used. This is nothing more than a rope halter. http://www.parelli.com/product.faces?catId=17 This is not comparable to the Nurtural Horse bitless bridle at all. 


Edited to add.. again.
In the video it brags that this bridle can be slapped on and used without letting the horse "get used to it" and shows clips of horses doing their thing in a bitted bridle then switching to a bitless and doing their thing again. If this is true, then even if I hadn't let Denny get used to it, I still shouldn't have gotten that reaction.


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## Zab

Off topic..
why on earth are they calling a ropehalter 'hackamore''? a hackamore has a curb bit effect, a rope halter...is just a ropehalter.. ;

I'm also annoyed that they name it ''bitless bridle''... becase bitless bridle is the only (that I know of, and in swedish too) name that could go for both hacamores, muserolas, sidepulls, riding cavessons and all other bridles designed to not have a bit.. Now they just stole it and to make it clear that you're talking about bitless all in all you have top write and say a lot... not to mention that the ''bitless bridle'' is the only bitless option that squeeses the horses head like that, most of the others simply work through preassure on the nose instead of the mouth. It gets very confusing. They should have used another name.


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## JustDressageIt

Zab said:


> Off topic..





Zab said:


> why on earth are they calling a ropehalter 'hackamore''? a hackamore has a curb bit effect, a rope halter...is just a ropehalter.. ;


..because it has the name "Parelli" attached to it?

I have no idea.... it's not a hackamore. I agree, it's a rope halter.


Ohmigosh .. *and it's $106?!?!? **faints*


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## JustDressageIt

Zab said:


> I'm also annoyed that they name it ''bitless bridle''... becase bitless bridle is the only (that I know of, and in swedish too) name that could go for both hacamores, muserolas, sidepulls, riding cavessons and all other bridles designed to not have a bit.. Now they just stole it and to make it clear that you're talking about bitless all in all you have top write and say a lot... not to mention that the ''bitless bridle'' is the only bitless option that squeeses the horses head like that, most of the others simply work through preassure on the nose instead of the mouth. It gets very confusing. They should have used another name.




Very good post as well. I had been wondering the same thing. Technically ANY bridle/headstall that doesn't use a bit can be called a "bitless bridle," wherein there are different "categories."
The Nurtural Horse bridle is a mix between a sidepull and ... well, the "bitless" contraption. I honestly do think it is and can be much more severe than a bridle with a bit.


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## luvs2ride1979

My2Geldings said:


> Funny you started that thread because I just posted a video on Canadians with a lady who rode her Canadian with one of those bloody things. Looked like nothing but a messy ride.


True, but look at the rider... She was stiff, bouncy in the saddle, locked pelvis/hips, hands and shoulders stiff/braced, bouncy hands, and she was looking down. The horse did VERY well considering the rider and the surroundings. Really though, she and that western riding didn't have any business doing that demo. They weren't nearly as polished as the two driving horses and the other Dressage rider.


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## luvs2ride1979

I wanted to update that I ground drove my mare with this bridle today (she needs her feet done before riding) and she did just as well as she did in the Cook bridle. We worked at the walk and trot, circles, figure 8s, and serpentines. She backed up and stopped well too.

But, like I said before, she already goes well in an exact copy of the Cook bridle. She works on a loose rein or on contact with it, and will collect some, though not as well as she does with her bit ;-). She keeps her back up nicely and doesn't resist the bridle, she just knows she doesn't have to work as hard with it, lol.


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## Bitless

I have a Dr Cook cross over bitless...which is similar but not the same to this bridle you have tried.

From what i can see in the pics the straps crossing over under the chin have some device ...rubber stop purhaps. I dont under stand why that would be there as the crossing over straps shouldnt be still, they need to be able to move a bit to apply the pressure properly around the head. Alot of that bridle looks like it would be.... still.....like a halter effect when you try to do anything with it..but apparently worse. 

Just going on what the pics appear to show. 

i would be very intreaged to see you try a Dr Cook bitless on your horse and see how he reacts with that in comparison to this natural bitless.


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## my2geldings

JustDressageIt said:


> ..because it has the name "Parelli" attached to it?
> 
> I have no idea.... it's not a hackamore. I agree, it's a rope halter.
> 
> 
> Ohmigosh .. *and it's $106?!?!? **faints*


You are killing me. Loved the 65 guazillions posts you put up, all really funny. Love how straight to the point you are. Good for you!


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## Vidaloco

I guess I should have specified  Mine is a Dr. Cook. 
I did do some round pen work with it before we headed out. 
I'm just a scardy cat and have a terrible fear of falling. Maybe thats why I went back to the bit. :?
I like to be very much in control of my horse. Could be just a mental block for me and Vida would get used to it after awhile. She has no problem with a bit and I like to think I have light hands so I think I'll keep her a metal mouth.


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## NorthernMama

Well, I find this all very interesting. I really wanted to try a Nurtural Bridle -- they are made close to where I live apparently and there's been a lot of hype about them. 

I only know two people that use them -- one had no success with it, but that lady has limited success with anything because she's very agressive; the other lady bought it and had great success. The horse responded far better. That was because the bit caused him physical discomfort, probably due to teeth changes at the time. Also, this horse is still in a learning curve so he didn't have much to "unlearn" and the lady did a lot of prepatory ground work with him. I agree with the poster that said to put a such a dramatically different piece of equipment on a horse requires some training first. I also agree that the mechanics of the Nurtural bridles are completely different than the standard headstall. Thinking about it now, I can see how this could be confusing for a horse well trained in a bitted bridle.

And someone mentioned the plastic spacer under the jaw on the Nurtural bridle -- this is to keep the cheek pieces in line. Supposedly, without that, the cheek pieces can ride up or down on the face and then change the pressures yet again. I haven't checked it out closely enough to say, but that's what I've been told.

Edited to add:
oh -- my point from the start of my post was: now I'm not so anxious to rush out and try one of these things. I think I will stick with "if it's not broke, don't fix it"


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## JustDressageIt

I have no idea why Denny reacted the way he did.. it was such a strong negative reaction that I'm still stunned. 
In the same breath, I am not going to put my life on the line to try it out again. 

M2G - haha that's the way I roll


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## SonnyWimps

Zab said:


> Off topic..
> why on earth are they calling a ropehalter 'hackamore''? a hackamore has a curb bit effect, a rope halter...is just a ropehalter.. ;
> 
> .


What would you consider a bosal then? Just curious... The Parelli hackamore (or rope halter as you two obviously perfer to call it) acts in the same way. You put the reins to where you would connect the lead rope and gives in the bosal effect. 

Also yes it's $106 online at the Parelli website....but you can get off brands for half the price (that's what HAF got)



On the topic of the bitless bridle that JDI tried for Denny. I tried one bitless bridle for Sonny at the last barn...it was a hackamore of types with the metal shanks on the end (kinda different than the one you used) and he hated it. He'd toss his head when I asked to stop and tried as hard as he could to run through the pressure. 
I haven't heard to many pros on the bitless bridle (meaning a bridle type material without the bit...like the one you used or the Dr Cooks...wait was that the name of it? I dunno.) I myself perfer either bosals or the Parelli Hackamore because they aren't as harsh and I found that they work better (at least for my horse)


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## Gingerrrrr

my old BO uses bitless bridles on both of her horses one is an 18 year old Chincoteaque pony and the other is an 8 year old QH/Paint....they both were fine in them but i definitely understand how some horses can freak out from them because they use different pressure points.... she used ones that looked like this. i dont know what brand it was though.


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## emmasacha

I had my first ride in my new Easy Trek bridle today (exactly the same as Dr Cook's but cheaper). I have to say I was a little unsure of what my horse might do because she can be an absolute nightmare sometimes. Never the less I got on and I loved it! We rode down the carpark and onto the common where I keep her, it's about 90 acres and has about 40 horses roaming it. She had about 5 minutes of wanting to trot and getting a bit joggy, I think this was because she suddenly realised she had no bit in her mouth, but then she settled right down and was really relaxed. At no point did I feel as though I had lost control and I walked, trotted and cantered her. This may not sound much but my mare can be very spooky and unpredictable when she is ridden out without another horse. I think the main thing I noticed was that if she looked at something she would shy but then go back to being relaxed. Normally she would spook and then take ages to calm down again. There is alot of scheptasism with these bridles but I have only ever read one bad review and I have tried it on a horse which is a challenge to ride, I think everyone should atleast give it a go. I have also just bought a treeless saddle but I'm gonna get Sacha used to her bridle before I ride her in that as well. I dont want to blow her mind by changing all she knows in one day.


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## my2geldings

It's seems it's really a horse and rider choice. I personally don't like the look of them, could not imagine showing in one so if I'm not going to ride in one, no point in getting one. 
Also I don't understand how you can ride a horse properly without the mouth to elbow and hind end contact you need to balance out a horse?? How can you push that hind end forward thru your lower leg to get that if all you have is pressure points on the nose?


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## luvs2ride1979

My2Geldings said:


> It's seems it's really a horse and rider choice. I personally don't like the look of them, could not imagine showing in one so if I'm not going to ride in one, no point in getting one.
> Also I don't understand how you can ride a horse properly without the mouth to elbow and hind end contact you need to balance out a horse?? How can you push that hind end forward thru your lower leg to get that if all you have is pressure points on the nose?


I use mine for hacking and trail riding, but I have schooled in it (my mare was due for a teeth floating and she was cranky with the bit). It takes more muscle, but I could get some decent collection with it and rounding through her back. 

The nose is just another point on the face, not much different than metal in the mouth, just more gentle. The energy is still coming from behind, through the back, over the poll, and into the bridle, just to a different mechanism.

You can't show in it of course, so it doesn't make sense to buy it if that's all you do is show, but it makes a nice bridle for people who don't show, or who like to take a break from schooling and have some fun.


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## JustDressageIt

I personally love having the subtle communication that is the bit. Eventually I'd love to be able to ride without a bridle period, I think that would be a really neat experience, but the bit allows for such fine communication I can't imagine an equivalent with anything else.


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## HorsesAreForever

I have to say The parelli hackamore was a bit confuseing for the turning for chance but after a while she was working off of my body and we were doing pretty good just gotta get use to teh different pressure points. She did in fact stop REAL quick when i said whoaa and pulled even teh slightest she stoped immediatly and didnt move a inch. After about 30 mintues I switched to my normal snaffle bridle and asked for a whoa and pulled it took longer to stop and she would keep moving forward. So there was a good change with the bitless.


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## JustDressageIt

I still do not for the life of me see the difference between a rope halter and a "Parelli hackamore." It just doesn't click with me.


And like I said, if you're having troubles in a bit, then chances are there's something going on; either with the training, the type of bit, the fit of the bit, or even the fit of the bridle. 


I firmly believe that (unless the horse absolutely cannot carry a bit due to injury or conformation) they should be able to accept a bit and work in it willingly. This is for the horse's future - if it gets sold on in the future, you want it to be able to carry a bit, because a lot of riders WILL NOT ride bitless. 
Nobody can say 100% for sure their horse will never get sold in the future... I, as a horse owner, want to make Denny as well trained as possible so if I ever do have to sell him, he has a better chance of going to a good, permanent home. 
That's my opinion. If the horse can work well in a bit and bitless, then bravo, you should be proud of your training.


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## appylover31803

When I was looking at horses, there was this qh gelding that would not tolerate a bit at all and had to be ridden in a hackamore. As much as I liked him, I decided against him (amoungst other reasons) because he wouldn't take a bit.
There was also this other paint mare, really sweet (out of my price range though) and she two just wouldn't accept a bit and had to be ridden in a hackamore.

I think its great if someone wants to ride bitless, but I also feel that a horse that takes a bit will be able to sell faster than a horse who's ridden bitless (and cannot take a bit)

There was one other horse that I knew that HAD to be ridden bitless, but he had tumors in his mouth and couldn't comfortable wear a bit. I believe his owner used a dr. cooks.


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## Zab

JustDressageIt said:


> I still do not for the life of me see the difference between a rope halter and a "Parelli hackamore." It just doesn't click with me.
> 
> 
> And like I said, if you're having troubles in a bit, then chances are there's something going on; either with the training, the type of bit, the fit of the bit, or even the fit of the bridle.
> 
> 
> I firmly believe that (unless the horse absolutely cannot carry a bit due to injury or conformation) they should be able to accept a bit and work in it willingly. This is for the horse's future - if it gets sold on in the future, you want it to be able to carry a bit, because a lot of riders WILL NOT ride bitless.
> Nobody can say 100% for sure their horse will never get sold in the future... I, as a horse owner, want to make Denny as well trained as possible so if I ever do have to sell him, he has a better chance of going to a good, permanent home.
> That's my opinion. If the horse can work well in a bit and bitless, then bravo, you should be proud of your training.


I agree with you there. I prefer bitless (lazyness etc) and my horse is never used to/ridden with a snaffle, because the bitless I use works instead of the snaffle. But he will get used to a spanish curb because that's a part of his schooling. _And it's so pretty.. *drools* Yeah, I'm so good at prioritating reasos x)_ (He'll be ridden with both muserola (bitless ''snaffle'') and the escuela (curb), when he's more educated. Now it's just the muserola) When he's used to that I doubt there would be any problems with using a regular snaffle, but if I am to sell him I'd check that first, of course.

If the horse can't get used to a bit, something is wrong with the training. Not all horses work well on all bits, but at least one of all the snaffles and one of all the curbs that excist, should fit and work. (not that all horses has to be ridden with a curb.. it is for higher schooling, and if you're not interested in that and just rides on a trail, or whatever reason, you shouldn't feel any pressure to teach yourself and the horse to use the curb.. I'm not ready for it yet, but I hope to be soon.)
Of course there can be a physical reason, but I think you should fix that no matter if you ride bitless or not. Problems in the mouth always gives tensions through the rest of the body, even if it's not shown directly in riding.

And something about ''real'' hackamores.. I hate it when that's the first bitless people try. Nobody puts a curb bit on a green horse, why put a curb bitless? ><


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## Zab

As far as I know (correct me if I am wrong tho) bosals are rather stiff and hard? a ropehalter is not. The bosal gives a much different pressure.

A hackamore has metal shanks, wich gives the effect of a curb bit (but bitless of course) a ropehalter or bosal does not. Look at how it works; the parelli thing gives preassure on the nose and possibly sides of the nose, as do the bosal (but the bosal has more definerd pressure points, and yes, I know about the knts on the ropehalter). The hackamore gives preassure under the chin, on the neck and over the nose, in a way that makes the horse put his nose inwards if he listens to the aids.(the curb bit gives the preassure on the neck, chin and in the mouth, in the same way). A hackamore also has the effect that when you pull the rein, the horse feels it more than you. (the bosal does too, if I'm not mistaken.. but I don't know much of bosals tho. And they're not hackamores either.)

I'm not against riding in ropehalters, I've ridden and even jumped in them, but they are not hackamores.

If you mean the ''normal'' hackamore, remember it's a curb and has a different effect as a halter, bosal or muserola/cavesson. Both ropehalters and bosals are actually pretty harsh. Tried sidepull or riding cavesson if you want something gentle?
But as I said, nothing wrong with using them if your horse likes it.





SonnyWimps said:


> What would you consider a bosal then? Just curious... The Parelli hackamore (or rope halter as you two obviously perfer to call it) acts in the same way. You put the reins to where you would connect the lead rope and gives in the bosal effect.
> 
> Also yes it's $106 online at the Parelli website....but you can get off brands for half the price (that's what HAF got)
> 
> 
> On the topic of the bitless bridle that JDI tried for Denny. I tried one bitless bridle for Sonny at the last barn...it was a hackamore of types with the metal shanks on the end (kinda different than the one you used) and he hated it. He'd toss his head when I asked to stop and tried as hard as he could to run through the pressure.
> I haven't heard to many pros on the bitless bridle (meaning a bridle type material without the bit...like the one you used or the Dr Cooks...wait was that the name of it? I dunno.) I myself perfer either bosals or the Parelli Hackamore because they aren't as harsh and I found that they work better (at least for my horse)


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## Zab

I'm so happy it worked out for you! 
Of course it's worth a shot to try, but I rather try other bitless alternatives first (if it's one of the kindwith crossing ropes under the chin?)

Abut the saddle.. wht type of treeless? :/ One of those soft ones you need special pads under? Be very careful..I used one, made sure it fitted well and all, checked the girth several times. Without my horse doing anything special, on our 6th or so ride, it suddenly slid all over and I hung under his belly, shattered my wrist into 11 pieces and still don't have full mobility.
If you notice it feels the least unsteady or slide to the side during the ride, or if you get up from the ground, even if it's just an inch, please don't use it, for your own safety. I always get worried when I hear about people using them.. and often I hear comments like ''felt a bit unstable'' or ''slid a little when I got up but it's so nice'' and I dearly hope nothing will happen to them..
I'm still using a treeless, and I love it to pieces, but it's the much more stiff type and it doesn't slide no mater what I do. It also has panels under it like a normal saddle.



emmasacha said:


> I had my first ride in my new Easy Trek bridle today (exactly the same as Dr Cook's but cheaper). I have to say I was a little unsure of what my horse might do because she can be an absolute nightmare sometimes. Never the less I got on and I loved it! We rode down the carpark and onto the common where I keep her, it's about 90 acres and has about 40 horses roaming it. She had about 5 minutes of wanting to trot and getting a bit joggy, I think this was because she suddenly realised she had no bit in her mouth, but then she settled right down and was really relaxed. At no point did I feel as though I had lost control and I walked, trotted and cantered her. This may not sound much but my mare can be very spooky and unpredictable when she is ridden out without another horse. I think the main thing I noticed was that if she looked at something she would shy but then go back to being relaxed. Normally she would spook and then take ages to calm down again. There is alot of scheptasism with these bridles but I have only ever read one bad review and I have tried it on a horse which is a challenge to ride, I think everyone should atleast give it a go. I have also just bought a treeless saddle but I'm gonna get Sacha used to her bridle before I ride her in that as well. I dont want to blow her mind by changing all she knows in one day.


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## Zab

Seen the spanish riding school in vienna? They (or at least lots of people riding more like them than normal dressage) starts out without a bit, with a riding cavesson or a muserola. You can still have contact and basically ride like with a bit, you can collect the horse, do shoulder ins and shoulder outs, and well. Work the same.

This picture is so very bad to show this, because I can't ride and all photos of the people that could is stuck on my other computer. My horse is very, very, very green on this picture and I'm not any better. He has never learnt to carry a rider (he was trained for racing but never started, and this is after a few months with riding maybe oce or twice a week, and almost no dressage; just walking to get used to the weight and so that I could learn to stop being nervous after falling off and shattering my wrist last year.

the first picture is how we looked in the start of the session, and then how I try to work him and (with my trainers instructions) make him go to the muserola and lift his back. I got so surpried when he did, I just released the reins and leaned forward.. XD So, if you look away from my crappy riding, and how green he is, I hope you can see that he is lifting his back and not just bending the neck? I hope to get better photos to show when he comes back from the ''boot camp'' 










And as someone else answered; it's not much differense between pressure points on the nose or in the mouth.

I'm sorry I fell off the topic.. :3





My2Geldings said:


> It's seems it's really a horse and rider choice. I personally don't like the look of them, could not imagine showing in one so if I'm not going to ride in one, no point in getting one.
> Also I don't understand how you can ride a horse properly without the mouth to elbow and hind end contact you need to balance out a horse?? How can you push that hind end forward thru your lower leg to get that if all you have is pressure points on the nose?


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## TheVelveteenPony

It seems to me that the old standards- the bosal, sidepull, jumping hack, and mechanical hack work just fine. These new bridles use strange pressure points and the "hugging" feeling around the horses head could cause them to panic.


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## JustDressageIt

Zab, thank you for all your informative posts... thank you for taking the time to type those out. 
I agree that a rope halter is not a hackamore, they have completely different actions.
A bosal is a stiff teardrop shaped rawhide loop that you put around the horse's nose - so yes, it is quite severe. 
I completely agree that putting a mechanical hack on a greenie makes about as much sense as putting a curb in a greenie, and yet people still do it... it's "bitless" so it _must_ be nicer, right??

As for your pictures and referring to your horse - yes, that is how a lot of "classical" horses are trained - they get the horses going in a bitless (sidepull or bosal seems most common - I noticed you were using a sidepull) then once they had basic training, they were taught to accept a bit and work well with a bit. The bit was intorduced slowly though, and at times, both bosal/sidepull and a bit was used, but it was done in such a way that it was just used as a transition. I really like this method - and the horse is taught to use a bit.


I just find that a lot of people wanting to go bitless do so for the wrong reasons.


TVP - completely agree, and had a firsthand experience myself. I don't think Denny liked the feeling at all.


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## Zab

I' using a muserola (a metal bar bar you screw onto/under the noseband) but it works pretty much like a sidepull. But riding cavesson is probably the closest to it Anyway, details.. x)

I like typing stuff out when I know about them..tho it's not that often people agree with me xD
I like that method too.. it seems like with the nowadays ''normal'' methods.. lots of people fail to teach horses how to react on the bit properly.. because they don't give it time? But this way, you almost have to teach it ''the right way''..

Yeah.. it's sad, because bitless can be a great option, but doing it for the wrong reasons mke the status of it drop to almosr zero. ><


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## Zab

I can just as well talk about the differenses between a sidepull and a muserola as well. x) Seems I'm on a roll here.

The sidepull is as far as I know either soft leather or a stiff ''rope'' with rings on the sides? The soft leather of course gives a different pressure than a metal piece, the rope should give about the same, but since it's round it is a bit different.
But the main differense is how the rings are attached, on rthe sidepull they're simply sewn/tied onto the nose piece.
On the muserol they're screwed there and comes up a bit, which makes them a little sharper. The differense isn't that big on the one I use and a sidepull, I use the top one in the image below, but as you see you can chose ''longer'' rings and make it sharper, like the shanks on a bit but without any curb effect. (the screws don't show on the underside when it's fitted on the nosebans, the underside is smooth)









There are even muserolas, or serretas, with spikes on the underside. I'd never use them, because they're made to make the horse yield to the bit and avoid it, instead of seeking a slight contact and following it. I'd think twice before using the third muserola in the picture above too.









Looks nice, huh?  But it's bitless, it must be good! 

I'm just saying this because I've noticed that a lot of people don't know about muserolas. The nicer kind are a good bitles option that gives as close as the snaffle signals as you can get without a snaffle.


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## JustDressageIt

Thanks for the info and pictures, Zab - at first glance I thought you were using just a simple sidepull - they look very similar without getting close to the horse.


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## Zab

I know


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## QtrHorse

Tried it on my Qtr mare after she suffered a mouth injury. Personally, I did not feel that it afforded me the security I require. She did not like the feeling of compression on her head and although she responded well to it after a few times I felt control wise it was no different from when I ride her in her halter. Thus, we ride in a bosal now and are happy.


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## lovemyponies

someone at my barn rides always in a bitless bridle. All his horses are also ridden with bits at sometimes by other people and are fine. He rode my mare with the bitless and she does not like it at all, tosses her head constantly but nothing over the top. She is fine with a bit. Seems its like most things depends on the individual horse and rider. )


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## Ne0n Zero

When I got my Bitless, I'd been riding in a metal plain full cheek snaffle bit... which he absolutely hated. He'd resist it and stick his nose way out and get really stiff. He was much better and relaxed in the Bitless.

However, he started to hollow up and string out recently, especially at the canter, so I tried a soft rubber racing dee bit and he LOVES it. He collects up and uses his back end very nicely and stretches down, reaching for the bit.

I also still have the benefit of not having to put a cold hard metal bit in his mouth in winter.


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## megannigan

SonnyWimps said:


> What would you consider a bosal then? Just curious... The Parelli hackamore (or rope halter as you two obviously perfer to call it) acts in the same way. You put the reins to where you would connect the lead rope and gives in the bosal effect.
> quote]
> 
> Whoa, hold on. The Parelli hackamore, aka a rope halter, is completely different from a bosal! The Bosal is hard and doesn't press on the nose the same way a rope halter does. Basically, you have more force if you need it. A horse that rides in a rop halter usually can ride in a bosal, unless they do not like how it feels, but a horse that rides in a bosal cannot necessarily ride in a rope halter.


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## megannigan

JustDressageIt said:


> I just find that a lot of people wanting to go bitless do so for the wrong reasons.


 
I agree with you. When I school my horse in the arena I ride him in a Myler comfort snaffle (how inhumane right?) so that we can work on collection, lateral movement, etc. When I trail ride him though, I ride him in a bosal for his comfort and enjoyment... Also because he looks so freakin cute in it  But anyways, I work at a guest ranch and see hundreds of "advanced riders" a year and the main problem most of them have is that they do not have soft hands. If you continually yank in a horse's mouth of course they are not going to like the bit so a lot of people go "bitless" because they think their horse hates the bit, when in fact, they hate how the rider handles the bit. I would never ride a horse bitless unless I know it is very responsive with a bit. I taught my horse to move off my leg and neck rein before I ever rode him in a bosal or bridleless (which he does very well even without expensive natural horsemanship "methods").

So anyway, congrats to those of you who have horses who go well bitless, but I can understand why some don't.


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## JustDressageIt

megannigan said:


> I agree with you. When I school my horse in the arena I ride him in a Myler comfort snaffle (how inhumane right?) so that we can work on collection, lateral movement, etc. When I trail ride him though, I ride him in a bosal for his comfort and enjoyment... Also because he looks so freakin cute in it  But anyways, I work at a guest ranch and see hundreds of "advanced riders" a year and the main problem most of them have is that they do not have soft hands. If you continually yank in a horse's mouth of course they are not going to like the bit so a lot of people go "bitless" because they think their horse hates the bit, when in fact, they hate how the rider handles the bit. I would never ride a horse bitless unless I know it is very responsive with a bit. I taught my horse to move off my leg and neck rein before I ever rode him in a bosal or bridleless (which he does very well even without expensive natural horsemanship "methods").
> 
> So anyway, congrats to those of you who have horses who go well bitless, but I can understand why some don't.


I agree with both your posts here, megannigan. A "Parelli" hackamore is no more than a rope halter.
Anyways, most horses do not hate the bit, but rather cannot work in it due to a physical or training problem - one that can be fixed with some investigation. Too bad a lot of people are unwilling to do that.
A lot of people switch to a bitless situation because their horse "hates the bit" when in fact they need a good equine dentist... of course the bitless will hide that fact for a while, and your problem is solved, right? Wrong... it's a band-aid solution.
Scenerio #2 is that people are using the wrong type of bit on their horse, so essentially, yeah, the horse hates that particular bit - doesn't mean he won't work fine in another bit. You have to get to know the type of mouth your horse has.
Now, the third problem is with training; a lot of horses simply have no idea how to work on the bit. It may take some horses a long time to learn how to work on the bit - but with the correct training, it will happen... but most people prefer taking the easy way out.


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## Janasse

> Anyways, most horses do not hate the bit, but rather cannot work in it due to a physical or training problem - one that can be fixed with some investigation. Too bad a lot of people are unwilling to do that.
> A lot of people switch to a bitless situation because their horse "hates the bit" when in fact they need a good equine dentist... of course the bitless will hide that fact for a while, and your problem is solved, right? Wrong... it's a band-aid solution.
> Scenerio #2 is that people are using the wrong type of bit on their horse, so essentially, yeah, the horse hates that particular bit - doesn't mean he won't work fine in another bit. You have to get to know the type of mouth your horse has.
> Now, the third problem is with training; a lot of horses simply have no idea how to work on the bit. It may take some horses a long time to learn how to work on the bit - but with the correct training, it will happen... but most people prefer taking the easy way out.


I know you said that MOST horses do not like the bit due to the rider but there are horses out there that truly need the bitless bridle. I personally ride my 21 year old Arabian in one (as of about 5 days ago). I'd been fighting with her not wanting to canter without tossing her head for months before I found the bitless bridle, she didn't like the sidepulls because they are still using concentrated pressure points on the nose and face. We then discovered that she has Facial Neuralgia. So it's not just taking the easy way out but finding a way to make your horse happy. Who decided that riding without a piece of metal in our horses mouth was so wrong? Remember they let us do things that are unnatural for them to do, shouldn't we do what we can to make it as comfortable as we can? I'm sorry if any part of this might sound rude....


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## smrobs

> I still do not for the life of me see the difference between a rope halter and a "Parelli hackamore." It just doesn't click with me.


Yep. And for $106 plus shipping and handling, you can achieve perfect harmony with your horse. OR.............I could drive down the road to the tack store and pay $20 for a rope halter and 20 ft. mecate rope. HHHHHMMMMMM......................which to choose????? I ride in a curb bit on all my trained horses but they ride in rope halters just as well when it is really cold or I am being lazy. I just don't understand getting all those fancy "bitless bridles" when you could use what most of us have already. If the horse is not responsive enough to ride without using every pressure point on their head, then they need training, not a new bridle. Sorry, I mean no offense but it just sticks in my craw when people advertise things that are ridiculously overpriced and don't really improve much on what we already have. They are just taking advantage of people who don't know any better. There are extreme cases of necessity like with Janasse's mare and I completely understand that, but most horses just don't need it.


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## Janasse

I agree with you smrobs. I don't think horses should have to order a $100 item to get there horse to listen to them bitless. I tried everything before going to the bitless. Unless you just prefer the whole head hug I would go with a cheaper item as it Should accomplish the same thing.


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## megannigan

Smrobs - I completely agree with you. I'm big on curb bits belong on trained horses because you can ride with no contact with them and then it takes almost no pressure to communicate with your horse. What kills me is when you see people ride in curb bits with super short reins! My horse will ride in anything from a curb to completely bridleless (I have pics on his page if anyone doesn't believe it). It all depends on how you use your hands and how much contact/pressure you use. That's why you see all those super nice western pleasure horses in curb bits, but no contact.


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## Ne0n Zero

I tried my horse in a "Bitless Bridle" today again and he was very hollow through the back and rushy, whereas in his rubber snaffle he has begun to start using his back end and rounding through the back.


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## JustDressageIt

smrobs said:


> Yep. And for $106 plus shipping and handling, you can achieve perfect harmony with your horse. OR.............I could drive down the road to the tack store and pay $20 for a rope halter and 20 ft. mecate rope. HHHHHMMMMMM......................which to choose????? I ride in a curb bit on all my trained horses but they ride in rope halters just as well when it is really cold or I am being lazy. I just don't understand getting all those fancy "bitless bridles" when you could use what most of us have already. If the horse is not responsive enough to ride without using every pressure point on their head, then they need training, not a new bridle. Sorry, I mean no offense but it just sticks in my craw when people advertise things that are ridiculously overpriced and don't really improve much on what we already have. They are just taking advantage of people who don't know any better. There are extreme cases of necessity like with Janasse's mare and I completely understand that, but most horses just don't need it.


 
Hahaha yes, I agree with you. 

Megan - Yes, like I said before.. there are certain circumstances where the horse cannot carry a bit comfortably, but 90% of the riders out there are riding bitless for the wrong reasons.


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## NeverDullRanch

*Bitless*

I am up to three Dr. Cooks now (for two horses). 

They took to them right away and are soft, round, totally steerable & stoppable.

One of these horses was a hollow upside down fellow who had obviously been poorly ridden before we bought him at around age 12. He is still no horse for a novice but SO much happier in the Dr. Cook's than in a bitted bridle. 

The other horse had a little trouble figuring out leg yielding in the bitless on the first ride but by the second ride he "got it" and we have had smooth sailing since then. He too is happy as a clam in this bridle. And there is no bit to clean, and no FROZEN bit to warm in the winter.

Heaven.


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## kim_angel

I had the Dr Cook Bitless Bridle and had a positive experiance with it. I believe it helped Toby's training alot


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## gypsygirl

i used bitless bridles & hacks somewhat often, i like them a lot ! i usually put fleece over the nose part to make it softer though


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## kevinshorses

I couldn't decide which one of these videos to post so I posted both. I thought a little education about hackamores and bosals was in order. Martin uses the term hackamore for the bosal, headstall and reins which is the traditional term. All the other "hackamores" are *******izations of this term and generally not accurate. 







 




 
Can anyone answer this bit of trivia? What is the name of the song playing in both clips and who is the artist? This should be easy for you Canadians.


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## hiwaythreetwenty

I use the Dr. Cook Bitless for a couple of reasons. One my mare while she goes on the bit and was trained with the bit, she started head tossing every year. So I would try a different bit and it would work for a bit then we would go back to the head tossing. I now use the bitless for the jumping and cross country phase and only use the bit for dressage which she does fine with this. She moves more forward and is happy. I did get her teeth checked and they are fine she just didn't like them. Now she is retired from eventing and does trail riding (in the bitless)and drives a cart (with a bit) and she is fine. Yes every horse still needs to know the basic commands with seat and legs .The bitless does work with pressure points which is different then the bosal and hackmore (which some can be quite scary). I have had great success with all the horses I train switching them to bitless. Does everyone have to use a bitless - NO but if your horse likes it why not. Is it going to cure your training problems most likely not the bit is only part of the cues used in riding. You can't substitute good training for gimmicks whether they are bits, bitless, martingales, tiedowns, etc. I was lucky to get my Bitless for $50 off ebay then our local amish tack guy is a friend of mine and he made us some copy cats for $30.00. Teach your horse well and he will learn well.


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## FGRanch

Kevin it's Ian Tyson...can't remember the name of the song at the moment. Let me think on it.


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## heyycutter

i agree with smrobs. My horse rides wonderful in just a normal nylon halter with lead ropes as reins.
a friend told me i should try a bitless bridle, but im wary, just because i dont like the all over pressure they use.


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## Toymanator

After reading through this entire thread I felt obligated to post my two cents. I have a few horses that are excellent trail horses. We typically ride with a mechanical hackamore when we go for a ride. 

However I have recently been introduced and have been riding with a group of people who prescribe to natural horsemanship. I won't name the group they follow because that is not the topic of this thread nor does it contribute to the discussion. A few weeks ago I went to put a hackamore on my nearly bomb proof appaloosa. One of the riders approached me, lifted off the mechanical hackamore and insisted that I try a "bitless bridle" he handed me his "rope hackamore" which was what has been discussed as a rope halter with mecate reins. I told him I was unsure how I felt about it but I was willing to give it a try. His reply "I know for one thing your horse will be much more comfortable and enjoy the ride more" This disturbed me, this was my horse that he didn't know anything about. It is a horse that is now 13 years old and for the majority of his life has ridden with the mechanical hackamore and responded extremely well. I was interested to see how he responded to the new found comfort. 

As we set out on the trail my horse was as nervous as could be and would not settle down. He was constantly running through the "rope hackamore" I was having trouble getting him to stop, something that has never been a problem with the mechanical hackamore. This horse typically neck reins incredibly, I use extremely soft hands when riding with him and he responds without question. However I had to apply much more pressure with the rope halter to get him to understand what I wanted him to do.

I could go on about a few other things that bothered me about my experience that day. Overall we didn't have a terrible experience but I was bothered by this man's insistance that my horse would enjoy and that I would enjoy the ride better with this new bitless bridle, all because of the fact that it wasn't in his mouth. This horse has responded better with a nylon halter on underneath his mechanical hackamore than the rope halter. I would even say that the mecate reins with the lead rope and rope halter isn't really that much heavier than the mechanical hackamore I use regularly on him. Sorry for the rant, this to me was another classic example of someone using a "bitless bridle" for the wrong reason.


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## kevinshorses

FehrGroundRanch said:


> Kevin it's Ian Tyson...can't remember the name of the song at the moment. Let me think on it.


You would have had to move from Alberta if you had missed it!!!


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## FGRanch

That's for sure Kevin! Ian Tyson is a wonderful singer/song writer and horseman. He is always present the NCHA events here in Alberta!


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## MN Tigerstripes

Soda hated the bitless (Dr. Cook). I rode him in it about 6 times before I said "screw it." He fought it for every signal I gave him. I'm not perfect but I try to signal legs/seat then hands/reins so I wasn't just hauling on his face. I'm convinced that my insistence on giving the bitless a fair chance resulted in his injury this summer. But I know several horses that go great in them, so it probably depends on the horse. In fact my mare seemed to really like it.

Edit - He rides perfect in a rope halter too so the problem wasn't that I didn't have a bit for "control"


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## RedHawk

I tried my horse in a Dr. Cook and found he was just confused and eventually a little cranky as he didn't know what I was asking. So it was a 'no' for the Dr. Cook.
But recently I found and have now bought a Light Rider Bridle Light Rider Bitless Bridle which is pretty similar to a side-pull but with a sliding chin strap.
So far he's done very well in it and I feel I have the same amount of control as I do with my bit (Myler loose-ring comfort snaffle). One thing I was worried about was that I wouldn't be able to give as subtle signals as I could with a bit, and maybe not, but it comes pretty close.
I also discovered a couple of interesting things the other day. The first was that even without the bit in his mouth he still salivated and had a nice line of foam around his mouth. Secondly, he is much less headshy. He previously was very insistent in his dislike of being touched anywhere near his ears and poll, he would reef his head and shy away and become rather agitated when I tried to put my hands up there. I have come to the conclusion that he must have been ear-twitched as he is fine being touched around his face, it's just his ears that are the problem. However the other day he let me run my hand up his neck and over his poll without even batting an eye. Still a little touchy about the ears, but still its a huge improvement for him.
So in conclusion, lol, I'm not a fan of the Dr. Cook or similar designs but I am impressed with the Light Rider, and I will continue to ride him in his bit as well, as I think he should still be able to ride in that as well.


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## Wallaby

I got an indian bosal/hackamore (and it was only ten bucks! money well spent, imo) for Lacey a month or so ago and she loves it. It's not good for direct reining in but since I've been mostly neck reining her, it works fine.
I'm feel that I'm actually able to give her more subtle signals in it than I was ever able to with a bit but that might just be the two of us. She also has an AMAZING whoa in it, she has a good whoa anyway but bitless she really rocks back and uses her butt to stop. It did take her (and me) a few weeks to figure it out but now we've figured it out. The other day I even got her to do a controlled canter on a completely loose rein in it, where she was always leaning on me with the bit. I think though, that the subtlety is just us or something becuase looking at the noseband, I can't how it would make anything more subtle, it looks like it should make everything less precise but I don't know.

I think it depends on the horse and the rider, whether or not bitless is going to work. And of course, I still ride her in a bit every once in a while. 
I just like riding bitless with Lacey because I feel like she was so confused by her previous people that if I treat her completely absolutely differently than they did she'll catch on better (and she does, it seems).

Anyway, hopefully this makes sense, I'm super tired. Haha


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## letsgetserious

I bought a Nurtural Bitless Bridle for Bird and it was the best thing I ever did for him. Before that I rode him in a copper snaffle and all he tried to do was avoid it. He would toss his head, brace against the bit, and not turn or do anything properly. (Nothing wrong with his mouth) Using the Bitless, he does everything so much better and enjoys riding sooo much more. I can even bring him down quietly from a dead gallop lol!


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## Tasia

I would like to try bitless but I will just use my rope halter.


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## KatrinaB

I bought one of Dr. Cook's bitless bridles and like it so much I've bought two more. No discernible difference on the mare that came with a mechanical Hackamore, but I think it is kinder. The mare who won't canter on the left leg (different forum thread) is MUCH calmer. No incessant head tossing/shaking at speed. She IS still fighting the bitless, a little, but I think that's normal until she's used to it. Finally, my novice daughter found her kind but mischievious mustang easier to handle in the bitless than the snaffle with curb he was in previously. Didn't try to run away with her as much. I thought the "squeezing" would be strange for the horse, too. But it's the same as with any other bridle/bit. If you have rough hands you can upset a horse no matter what kind you use. Gentle hands and training are the best solution regardless of bit type.


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## Solon

I have Dr. Cook's bitless (lots of bitless threads recently!) for my draft. He works really well. Here's a picture of him in it at one of our medieval events. I didn't have it fitted correctly, it should have been further down his nose. But he works really well in it.


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## Vidaloco

I need to add on to my reply to this as well. Last summer I started both of my 3 year olds in the Dr. Cooks and they did excellent in it. Of course that was moving up from a rope halter. I did eventually move them up to a bit. 
I think they're great for training young horses. Much better than moving them into a hackamore.


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## Nutty Saddler

I had someone with a Dr cooks who complained that the way the straps attach to the noseband make the whole affair rotate on the horses head.
I made her this which she says works just as well without the noseband pulling around the head.
Before sending to the customer I tried it on two of our own horses - one was already using a bitless so no problems there at all - the other had never used a bitless, she did not at first understand what was going on but soon became used to it, and as there is lots of padding on both nose and poll did not object at all.
We also tried it as a bit / bitless combo which worked well but only with a snaffle bit - this could be useful for helping the transition from a bitted to a bitless bridle for the horse and rider

























The customer likes the bridle , we both agree that a few minor changes need to be made but it still works well as it is and she has a few friends who want to try it on their own horses


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## RedHawk

I had an interesting conversation today with the lady who massages my horse. We got onto the topic of bitless bridles and she mentioned the fact that the cross-under styles (Dr. Cook, Nurtural & the like) can actually be quite harmful and do a lot of damage to the poll and jaw. She is qualified, well recommended and has had years of experience, plus she does a fabulous job on my own horse, so I trust her word for it. 
Like people have said previously, the bit/headgear is only as harsh as the rider's hands, but I think it's good to know that the cross-under's aren't the super-gentle alternative people think they are, and can actually cause quite a bit of soreness and muscle damage around the horse's head. Especially if you're riding around with a strong contact - I don't like it that a lot of bitless promoters say they are good if you tend to have hard hands, according to this lady who has treated many horses with issues caused by cross-under bitless bridles, if this is the case you're more often better off with a french-link or oval-link snaffle.

Just thought this was a good bit of info to share.


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## Wallaby

RedHawk said:


> I had an interesting conversation today with the lady who massages my horse. We got onto the topic of bitless bridles and she mentioned the fact that the cross-under styles (Dr. Cook, Nurtural & the like) can actually be quite harmful and do a lot of damage to the poll and jaw. She is qualified, well recommended and has had years of experience, plus she does a fabulous job on my own horse, so I trust her word for it.
> Like people have said previously, the bit/headgear is only as harsh as the rider's hands, but I think it's good to know that the cross-under's aren't the super-gentle alternative people think they are, and can actually cause quite a bit of soreness and muscle damage around the horse's head. Especially if you're riding around with a strong contact - I don't like it that a lot of bitless promoters say they are good if you tend to have hard hands, according to this lady who has treated many horses with issues caused by cross-under bitless bridles, if this is the case you're more often better off with a french-link or oval-link snaffle.
> 
> Just thought this was a good bit of info to share.


That's really good to know! I'll definitely keep that in mind, especially when I let people other than me ride Lacey. :shock:
Since Lacey stretches her head into the bridle as much as she can (she's like a dog with a leash as soon as she sees it! hahaha And I only very rarely ride with contact) I think I'm probably doing ok but other people, who knows.

I'm really glad you shared that! I hadn't even thought about the crossunder part maybe being a problem, I was mainly focused on the nose part... Thanks!


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