# Round bales and allergies



## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

Round bales are going to vary greatly in quality just like squares. It could be dustier because they they need to have a lower moisture content to cure properly. One aspect of rounds that could be aggrivating things is the level at which she is eating. If she could drop her head all the way to the ground, she would have more drainage.
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Haha I'm sure she's eating the stuff that's on the ground. She looks at it funny then sticks her nose in it but can't figure out why it's so hard so she just eats the stuff on the ground. 

I'm just wondering if this is a common issue with round bales or if by winter we might have better luck. It would come from the same supplier though I am not sure when these bales are from.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

It is a common issue. It's way harder to find and make good quality roundbales. I was told by an oldtimer to make the bale fall on it's round side when delivered. If it bounces it's good, if it just goes "thump" without bounce, it's most likely moldy inside.
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Ok so on the moldy idea, here's a question.

My human allergy doctor told me that all hay will have some mold spores on it. I am apparently allergic to hay since I myself have a mold allergy to alternaria. So in that sense, if almost all hay has some amount of mold how do I find the stuff that doesn't? All hay makes me wheeze so according to my lungs all hay is moldy lol.

And am I left with an alternative for winter? If she can't be on round bales she will be in a regular paddock with square fed twice a day.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Oops, wasn't done yet.....
Anyway, I found that to be true. One thing to look for is bales with a soft core. They tend to breathe better and most likely are not moldy. 
Main problem with round bales us, due to their size, if there is just a little bit of not dry enough hay in it it will get hot and burn a good portion. Or go flat out moldy. Now the slightly "burned" hay still smells good, a bit like tea, and horses like it. But when it comes to a certain point that hay makes even me cough.
I've worked with roundbales for the last 20 years and have learned the hard way (COPD horse) to not just throw the bale in. I fed it, after careful inspection, in portions. 
If its moldy, you'll see and smell it, when open, but the mold spores go in and out of the moldy spot for at least 5". 
Having a horse who is already prone to allergies, I wouldn't even consider it. 

There is a possibility now tho, I didn't have in all these years. Slow feeder round bale nets. That way she can pull out only a little at a time and not bury her nose in it. And users say it gets thin horses to gain and overweight horses to loose, if that would be a concern.

If you can reach in the bale on several places and pull out a strand and smell it and it smells sweet, you might have a good one.....
Another problem is if it's bad, you'll have to most likely throw away the whole bale which is a big cost factor.

I do have to state, good roundbale hay is way better for horses than the crushed or chopped small bale hay. Longer stem, more chewing time. But, it's a risk.

I know for sure some people will say that they have fed roundbales and never had any problems;-)
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Hmm well these definately had a tight core. But I shall go inspect what is left of them tonight. She was kept off them today and fed square bales separately and will remain separate until the rest go back to square to see if it helps her cough.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

poppy1356 said:


> Ok so on the moldy idea, here's a question.
> 
> My human allergy doctor told me that all hay will have some mold spores on it. I am apparently allergic to hay since I myself have a mold allergy to alternaria. So in that sense, if almost all hay has some amount of mold how do I find the stuff that doesn't? All hay makes me wheeze so according to my lungs all hay is moldy lol.
> 
> And am I left with an alternative for winter? If she can't be on round bales she will be in a regular paddock with square fed twice a day.


Well, either squares or investing in a net. It will save money in the long run,with an open bale, even in a feeder , you'll have up to 50% loss. They pull out strand by strand and what's not wanted will get trampled, slept on or worse, pooped on. 

Dustfree hay, couldn't tell you any grand, only European ones. Cubed hay and good clean straw for extra nibble time might be an option
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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Good. I'd wet her hay for now, to help her get over the cough. 

Sometimes I think with al the mechanized stuff we don't do us or our horses a favor. I remember well when we made loose hay...stored it in a huge hay loft. And salted it, layer per layer. Then the small low pressure bales came up. Again, salted in storage. Even high pressure bales can be salted. And round bales, right at the baling process. But people don't remember this. The salt pulls out excess moisture and makes the hay smell super good.........
Geez.....I'm old....
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Well I'm pretty sure it was mold in the bale. Just found out these were bought from the same guy that we got all our squares from. A few of the squares we have found have mold. So we check those everytime we feed. 

Maybe if we decide to do round bales we can find a different supplier. 

Salt does sound like a good idea, I've just never heard of that before.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

Be aware that even perfectly fine round bales can cause some horses to cough (and get watery eyes, too). Some horses like to "tunnel" into the bales with their head causing them to breath little hay pieces and get them in their eyes. I can always tell when I see them walking around with hay "hats" on their forelocks.
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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*round bales*

Round bales are quite often packed too tight so the air can't get into the middle so they sweat or stay a bit damp or made too early before the hay is properly dried out if a farmer is in a rush to beat the weather or time itself is against him. They are more likely to be left outside under a tarp than the conventional sized bales too
Mold spores can be really dangerous so you do need to be vigilant, its not the same as hay thats just a bit dusty that you can give it a good shake or moisten by steaming or wetting before feeding to reduce general pollen spores and basic environmental dust that can't be avoided.
If she's prone to being sensitive to plain hay dust then damping the hay is a good option but you might find that a struggle in the winter when it freezes so maybe you could look at the possibilities of getting haylage in your area


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Well that is sad news. So basically she probably shouldn't be on round bales at all? She either gets the regular squares everyone else gets or the round bales. No special hay as I am out of places to keep her separate. She doesn't do stalls so no special hay overnight.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*hay*



poppy1356 said:


> Well that is sad news. So basically she probably shouldn't be on round bales at all? She either gets the regular squares everyone else gets or the round bales. No special hay as I am out of places to keep her separate. She doesn't do stalls so no special hay overnight.


 That sounds a bit dramatic, as long as the hay is good clean quality it doesn't matter if its square or round you you dont want to be feeding her something thats going to cause her harm now that she's come this far
Obviously you shouldn't be feeding her something thats detrimental to her health especially with all the other issues she's had to deal with. No one should be feeding mouldy hay but all hay can be dusty to a certain degree - the air is full of dust and the stuff has grown on dusty fields but its Ok if its damped if your horse has problems with it. 
Feeding low down off the floor is always better if you can do that - horses are grazers not tree eaters.
You do have a 'special needs' horse so trying to fit her into a general package that works for the average horse is never going to be simple


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Well soaking a round bale would be kind of difficult. Squares are much easier as the round bales are just thrown out to be eaten off of not chunks taken out then fed. 

If we find mold it gets thrown out. But I don't think we can always see it. Like my doctor told me that all hay has some mold so I am actually to try to keep my distance from it  not sure how that works when I do chores.

So if I were to look for a new supplier for round bales for winter, what would some questions be that I should ask before I go and look at the hay that is sold? I don't want to be driving all over the state because everyone says they have good hay. And then are there anything else too look for other than what desertwoman mentioned about the sweetness and how tight it is?


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Go for barn-stored vs. under tarp. 
I always asked if he would give me a new bale if one was bad. Most did.
If it's a farmer with animals, ask if he feeds it and look at it. If its a dealer, you obviously can't. 
I used to make a hook sort of out of a wire clotheshanger and dig in the bale to pull out samples.
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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

To be honest, I have yet to see a horse eat moldy hay. This time of year, a round bale will last our mares 4-6 weeks. If it gets rained on enough with this heat, it will start to get some mold in places, especially near the bottom. The mares just leave it or toss it out of the hay ring and eat what is good.
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Thank you, I will be talking with the bm this week to see what we might do for winter. 

Paint - I highly doubt Lizzy would eat moldy hay, she turns her nose up at apples that might be just slightly too sour. But she is a special case. She has terrible allergies and mold can travel by air if it is disturbed so all it takes is for the stuff to be moved around her and the spores will enter her system. She is very sensitive. She cannot be in one pasture area due to her being quite allergic to something. 

My vet told me that usually allergies come out in hives but some horses that rub up against something, breathe or ingest something they are allergic too have their reaction in the respirtory system. 

As Jaydee said I really do have a special needs horse 

Oh and our round bales are only about 600 lbs and lasted 5 horses just over a week. And they were only allowed on it during the day.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*mouldy hay*

Basically you just dont want to be paying for stuff you have to throw away and damaging your horse at the same time.
Desertwoman has pretty much said it all. I would stear clear of round bales unless you have a really good supplier - at least with the small bales you can send them back a lot easier and damp them if general dust is an issue
Good hay should smell sweet and feel dry and clean to the touch. If it smells musty or has a sour nutty smell (never sure how to describe it) and feels damp then leave it alone. 
Horse wont eat bad hay as a rule but if they are hungry and have nothing else available they will eat anything


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Hmmm well we have a few round bales in the barn...I shall go inspect those tonight. If I start to wheeze when I smell them, I don't need to go any further. I'm like a human mold detector lol. 

She has been getting some nice alfalfa hay someone has donated to a few of us. So she gets a flake in the morning and sometimes night. She loves that stuff and it smells awesome.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I got to where I could smell moldy hay still on the truck;-)
And Lizzie picking at the roundbale....no wonder, after the alfalfa 
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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

^^^^ It can be the type of grass, too. Our breeder friends have a mare "Weazer" that can't eat fescue hay and has to stay on orchard grass hay (and has allergy meds, too).
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Well the round bales are from the same guy as our squares so I'm guessing it was either to dusty or moldy for her since it's the same grass mix. 

Me on the other hand, I'm pretty much allergic to the world. I take two different allergy meds daily. I know what the side effects are and how to remedy them but poor Lizzy can't tell me when her allergy meds upset her tummy or make her dizzy or anything. So I would like to really cut back on her meds.
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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Wasn't she on MSM too? I'd keep doing that. Its been successfully used by people with emphysema. 

I'd say, try to get the best hay possible for her. Don't bother with roundbakes, too risky. Definitely don't let her stick her nose in it to find the best parts. Wet all hay, if possible. I used to put a serving in a wheelbarrow and soak it. The one for morning I'd soak the evening before. That way it just had to be dumped out and no time wasted. For freezing temps I added salt to the soaking water. In summer I'd spray it liberally with a hose right before feeding so it wouldn't ferment. Important is that any uneaeten wet hay be removed as it can mold too.
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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

You know you put so much effort and stress into Lizzie it really amazes me how dedicated you are to getting a horse that was a 'throw away' right
I am so looking forward to the post that says 
'Hi everyone just to let you know that Lizzie is great & doing well'
I hope that doesn't sound sarcastic because it wasn't meant too!!!


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Thank you, I try my best for all my animals. I really hope soon I can say she's all healthy. 

Yes, she is still on msm and I plan on keeping her on it. I will try soaking her hay. It's still really hot out now and dry so that's not helping.
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

So how long after being taken off the round bale should she start getting better? She still is getting her allergy meds. Tonight we went for a quick 20 min ride and she was coughing a lot. Not as much as the other day as when we would just rest she wouldn't cough then. It was very very dusty though and she usually has a cough or two when we work in the arena when it's this dry.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Keep her out of the dust for riding if at all possible. I used to sprinkle the paddock even when it was dusty. And the stall, the walls even, everything basically. She should get better within a few days with wet hay, tho. Unless this roundbale is near her.
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Nope no round bale by her. Shes in a dirt paddock covered in grass/weed stuff so not to dusty.

It's going to be too hot for me to ride until either Saturday or Sunday. Once it hits 85 up here with the humidity I just can't stand it so Lizzy gets time off with some baths and treats. Today was the last day under 85 so I had to do something. And I was by myself so I didn't want to ride to far away.

Oh I tried to inspect hay but it was so hot in there I could barely breathe just grabbing one bale of hay. It was like instant wheezing so it will have to wait until it cools down. I think those bales will be there for a few weeks yet.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Now there's a way to check hay...if you can't stand it being near, neither can your horse...;-)
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Haha yes I guess that does work. Usually if it's cooler I don't have such an issue. I helped stack 500 of those bales this spring and I was wheezing for two days. I thought it was just being allergic to hay, which my doctor says I might be yet 

Poor Lizzy, she got more alfalfa today and promptly put her face in it. She seems to really love that stuff.


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## kccjer (Jul 20, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> I do have to state, good roundbale hay is way better for horses than the crushed or chopped small bale hay. Longer stem, more chewing time.


Not sure where this comes from. Hay is swathed and then baled. The swather doesn't care what size bales you're gonna put up, it just cuts and "crimps" the hay (mashes the stalks so that it dries faster). Unless your baler is set wrong, it shouldn't make a bit of difference if they are round or square, the hay will be the same stem size as it was cut....or if you let it dry too much, the stems will break easier. In which case, the big rounds would be worse since hay needs to be drier? 

Poppy, it could definitely be the dust. Can't remember where you live, but it has been so dry and dusty here. In fact, I lost my mustang to the heat and allergies this summer. She always has seasonal allergies in the winter, but with the dry and dust, she just didn't get better this year like normal. When our heat index hit the 100's for days on end, her body just couldn't handle it. On the other hand, I had a mare that was allergic to alfalfa and she lived for several years eating alfalfa cause that's all I had available to feed her. We coughed and hacked our way thru winter to be ok after she could be out on pasture.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I have not read other replies so forgive me if I am being redundant.

I have one horse (young, healthy and no previous breathing problems) that cannot even eat bright green 'over-cured' hay in round bales with absolutely no mold in them. He coughs, wheezes, shows a 'heave line' and could not be ridden for more than 2 or 3 minutes when he had access to a round bale. When he buried his head in the bale he got pollen and just the minute amounts of dust that is on all hay. The difference is that he would get his face up into the bale and breathes the air in there instead of breathing air out in the open. Our Vet thinks it is more like an asthma attack than anything else. 

We only have round bales so we just set his outside of his paddock and fork enough hay for him and the gelding in with him. For the first few weeks, we wet their hay down. We were trying to get him over his cough and hoped he would lose his heave line and be able to be ridden. He did and now we just fork hay over to him. 

He is the third one we have had, all cutting bred from high-priced outside stallions we took mares to. [Our older breeding of Foundation bred stock just are hardier and do not have many of the problems that the highly bred top-of-the-line show cutting stock has. This last one was an embryo transfer foal so we had over 10 grand in him when he hit two and his asthma keep him out of training for half of his 2 year old year. The $10,000.00 was pretty much wasted. He cannot catch up to be a Futurity horse. He is now off all meds and no longer needs his hay wet down and there is no heave line even when he is ridden for a hour or more. It is just too late to get him on schedule.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

kccjer said:


> Not sure where this comes from. Hay is swathed and then baled. The swather doesn't care what size bales you're gonna put up, it just cuts and "crimps" the hay (mashes the stalks so that it dries faster). Unless your baler is set wrong, it shouldn't make a bit of difference if they are round or square, the hay will be the same stem size as it was cut....or if you let it dry too much, the stems will break easier. In which case, the big rounds would be worse since hay needs to be drier?
> 
> Poppy, it could definitely be the dust. Can't remember where you live, but it has been so dry and dusty here. In fact, I lost my mustang to the heat and allergies this summer. She always has seasonal allergies in the winter, but with the dry and dust, she just didn't get better this year like normal. When our heat index hit the 100's for days on end, her body just couldn't handle it. On the other hand, I had a mare that was allergic to alfalfa and she lived for several years eating alfalfa cause that's all I had available to feed her. We coughed and hacked our way thru winter to be ok after she could be out on pasture.


Maybe because there is a difference in balers between here and Europe? Could be. Just know they have cutters built in which can be set for different lengths but nothing is crushed tho...maybe cutting instead of crushing? Would make sense
I know that because my farmer there asked me how I wanted my straw, short or long. And it's the same baler. For small or large square bales. The roundbaler not. Hmm...
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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

@Cherie: some people think it's heritable...im pretty convinced too.
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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> Cherie: some people think it's heritable...im pretty convinced too.


We have also figured it was. I had not read anything coming from a University or any study, but when we were having so much trouble with the 3 year old gelding we now have, I had a friend in California say that two horses in training with her trainer were sired by the same stallion and both had breathing and coughing problems if their hay was not wet down. The owners of one had told them "What ever you do, don't let him get his face in a round bale." So, I guess it is not real rare and I would sure guess it is genetic.


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Hmm well I highly doubt I will ever know anything about her parents or siblings, I have her pedigree but that is it. 

Is there any alternative that would allow 24/7 access to a roundbale like perhaps a certain feeder I could build that would allow her to not get her face in it?

I was hoping she could be on hay 24/7 this winter but if no roundbales then she cannot. I cannot afford to have her other paddock mates being fed also. Plus with the price of squares going up by leaps and bounds here because farmers are shipping it out, it's simply not feasible. 

That also makes me wonder about our roundbales though as the price for a roughly 600lb bale is $55 delivered. That seems awfully low for how bad hay prices are and if we get 700-800 lb bales the price only goes up to $65 delivered.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*Hay allergy*

Its the whole dust allergy thing (COPD) that has moved a lot of people in the UK to use haylage - it does have its own problems as higher in sugars - but you dont get the dust so symptoms reduce or disapear altogether
I wonder if Lizzies problems are made worse by damage that might have been done by the huge redworm burden she had for so long - they migrate through the bloodstream and can affect the lungs.
She might need a course of something like Ventapulmin from your Vet to clear any congestion before it turns into an infection and find her some better hay that you can soak
I know its a problem for you where she is but the best thing for her would be 24/7 turnout on some good grass before the winter. Do you have any local farmers that would let you turn her out with some livestock for even a month?


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Ahh the grass leads to another suspected issue. I suspect a very low grade laminitis. So she is off grain, just rice bran now. But I wonder if it may have been caused by the flax seed oil, talking with someone else it seems it is an unstudied idea but since she went lame within 48 hours of starting the flax with no other changes I suspect that. So it is mearly in the trial and error stage. She did have very sore feet, that has been mostly remidied by the farrier with her shoes. Her soreness has continued to decrease with everyday that her grain and flax oil has been gone.

So fall grass is high in sugar.... not good for her. She will be on rice bran and beet pulp this winter so I can get her red cell down and other suplements. The vet may be coming out in the next month or so for some other people so if she is not better by then I will have him look at her as well.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Is there any alternative that would allow 24/7 access to a roundbale like perhaps a certain feeder I could build that would allow her to not get her face in
If you read my early posts, I suggested a slowfeeder round bale net. You cover the bale with it and they have to pull out small strands at a time, eat slow and steady, very little waste, cannot bury their heads in it and as people who use it state, it's weight-regulating either way. They're not too expensive and hold up pretty well, so the initial expense will be made up over time by saving hay. Don't have the link handy, its something like "paddock paradise.wetpaint"...go Google "slowfeeder", it'll come up as one of the first. 
Im using two of these feeders, home made, with oathay, so they have a little larger openings to accommodate the thicker stems of the oathay, and can see my horses really pulling out only a tiny bit at a time. Very little on the ground and they are not hungry come feeding time. I just started using it last week so cannot really tell how much I save on hay, tho. I use a "bag" and a "barrelfeeder". Made the bag myself out of baling twine
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Ah yes, I forgot about that. I will talk with my bm tonight. My horse was going to be with hers in their own paddock with the roundbales so that might work. I will probably still consult the vet to make me feel better and to make sure it would still be a good idea. And I would still like to find a different supplier for the round bales.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

For finding out if she has lowgrade laminitis you would have to do bloodtest and have her feet x-rayed to see if there are any changes. My mare started slow too. The one who also had COPD, by not lifting her feet for cleaning, wasn't really lame at first. She didn't have the telltale signs of laminitis.
What im thinking now, with all the research which has been done over the years and new findings, she was basically allergic to herself. Which in turn makes ne think about what my mom used to say " a kid has to eat 5 grams of dirt a day to stay healthy" regarding allergies. Maybe we are "shooting sparrows with cannons" , meaning we are not giving the body, human mir animal, a chance to build a strong immune system by too liberal a use of medications in one form or another. .....
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Yes and unfortunately I cannot afford xrays at this point. So I am just feeding as if she is prone to it. She rarely gets treats, doesn't really like apples and no molasses. Plus I feel raw foods are better than manufactored food anyway. 

Once again my own health issues influence what I feed my animals. I have allergies, a thyroid issue and most likely celiacs so I try to keep medications out of my diet as well as my animals along with as much raw foods as possible. I think most of these allergies have come about from GMO foods, animal and human. Dust and mold though I cannot say why those have increased.

If I could get her off allergy medication altogether that would be the ultimate goal. She is still gaining weight with just the rice bran so I will keep that in her diet.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Just wrote about that in another thread
Everything now is artificial. Grass is planted for high yield, soils are lacking in nutrients which have to be brought in again, processed. Grain is processed. Everything has to be super clean, so they use herbicides and pesticides liberally. Our horses, and we, for that matter, are not getting what we need. So we add what? Processed additives. 
If you look at wild horses, they fluctuate in weight over the year. Spring it's high protein lush green grass, just in time for foaling. During the summer they get nice and round, creating the fat layers needed for surviving the winter, and come end of winter they are pretty down in weight, but spring will get them back. Yet they rarely get laminitis.
What do we do? We feed the same all the time, lock them in stalls for our convenience.
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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Dusts and molds? My theory: dust, because again, everything has to be high yield. Soils are systematically killed, good topsoil is rare, so it blows away=dust. Everything is highly mechanized, time is money. And you can imagine with the amount if chemicals used on any crop, that some of it is also in the dust.
Molds thrive in an environment without natural defense.
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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*laminitis*

Check on the sugar levels in that Red Cell - its is loaded with syrup. Think about finding a straight iron source which could save you money as well
Flax seed oil shouldn't have been a laminitis issue but if you're feeding rice bran you would just be duplicating a feed type.
Keeping her off grains is the right thing to do but you could add some non molassed chaff and as long as you opt for a complete feed thats molasses free it might be better for her than rice bran which is more of a supplement than a straight feed and is expensive too.
Sentinel do several non mollassed feeds that are recomended for horses with metabolic/insulin problems that need to gain or maintain weight and need good levels of vitamins & minerals especially if they have no access to grazing. They are sugar beet based (no soak) so you could probably cut out the straight sugar beet and just mix with some bran or chaff for extra bulk
Horses with insulin & metabolic issues also have reduced immunity problems which might explain why she is struggling to recover from her current dust related infection
Both these links have some useful info

Feeding Tips for Horses with Laminitis | The Feed Room

Laminitis Clinic advice for horse owners


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Or maybe since she's mine she just decided she had to have allergies, I mean I'm highly allergic to mold and can't have gluten in my diet at all and my dog is highly allergic to grass and chicken....

She has no rings on her feet at all so I hope I am catching this early. But I am making a note about the slow feed net for the round bale. I know it would up and **** off one of the horses she would be with but oh well lol. The paddock she is in now, which would also be the winter one if on round bales, is the one she seems to do the best in. She has a big enough space to run around like a crazy person and it's not a pasture so not much grass but covered in weeds to keep the dust down, but not the weeds she's allergic too, and usually pretty dry.


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

jaydee said:


> Check on the sugar levels in that Red Cell - its is loaded with syrup. Think about finding a straight iron source which could save you money as well
> Flax seed oil shouldn't have been a laminitis issue but if you're feeding rice bran you would just be duplicating a feed type.
> Keeping her off grains is the right thing to do but you could add some non molassed chaff and as long as you opt for a complete feed thats molasses free it might be better for her than rice bran which is more of a supplement than a straight feed and is expensive too.
> Sentinel do several non mollassed feeds that are recomended for horses with metabolic/insulin problems that need to gain or maintain weight and need good levels of vitamins & minerals especially if they have no access to grazing. They are sugar beet based (no soak) so you could probably cut out the straight sugar beet and just mix with some bran or chaff for extra bulk
> ...


 
Hmm ok I am off to check on the Red Cell... But like said above I really don't like complete feeds these days. I am more for building my own feeds for her. I don't mind the extra work if it's healthier.

And I am going to read those links now.


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Here is the ingredient list for Red Cell, since the flavoring is at the bottom is it to concerning?

Water, Ferric Sulfate, Ammonium Hydroxide, Citric Acid, Choline Chloride, Zinc Sulfate, Sorbitol, Magnesium Sulfate, Potassium Chloride,
Vitamin E supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, D-activated Animal Sterol irradiated (source of Vitamin D-3), Copper Sulfate, Xanthan Gum,
Manganese Sulfate, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Calcium Pantothenate, Saccharin Sodium, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Cobalt
Sulfate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite complex, Sodium Benzoate (a preservative), Niacinamide, Sodium Bicarbonate, Biotin, Sodium Selenite,
Kelp Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Artificial Cherry Flavoring, FD&C Red #40 and
Potassium Sorbate (a preservative).​


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*feeding*

Its usual for the lowest content to be lower down - the Yucca is the syrup source so it might be OK.
I'm very cautious of 'complete feeds' mainly because of the huge amounts of molasses they put in them but I've been feeding Sentinel to mine for a while now and they are all breeds that are high risk of IRS/laminitis and I've had no problems at all and they all look really well on it. 
Heres a link to their website. I feed the Senior as I have two that are aged 17 & 21 but the Lifetime formula would work just as well I think. You could cut out the rice bran & beet pulp as it already contains those things though adding some extra beet pulp is a good way to get safe weight gain if you need it


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*link*

Sorry I forgot the link!!!
Sentinel™ — Guardian of Equine Health


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Ok so there are only two dealers within 50 miles of me. How much does this stuff cost and how much do I feed per day. I base everything off of 900-1000lb horse.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

This is something I used to feed when in Germany. 
St. Hippolyt Nutrition Concepts | Herzlich Willkommen im St. Hippolyt Onlineshop

If you look at the Struktur Energetikum and the Equigard product data sheets as examples.

I haven't found anything even remotely close to that here in the US
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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Click on "complete feeds"......me and posting links......;-)
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Soooo how much does that translate to in $$? My uncle lives in Germany.... That is very similar to what my dog gets but of course they don't offer that for horses.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*feed*

This should be a link to the fact sheet for the senior feed that gives suggested daily amounts but you do need to adjust to suit your own horses individual needs - which it states.
You'd have to check with a supplier re. cost as I can't find a receipt to give you a price and it would probably differ anyway.
http://www.sentinelfeed.com/pdfs/blueseal_sellsheet_SR.pdf


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Ahh that's a lot per day and I'm guessing the price is significantly higher than what she had been getting. So I most likely cannot afford it.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

A dollar is roughly 80 euro cents today.
can you figure the price out, I don't remember how much it was plus my cell is not really cooperative this morning in hopping from website to website

It's rather expensive. Always was, but it's worth it IMO
Problem would be the shipping to the US. We need a feed manufacturer who is willing to make this!
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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*feed*



deserthorsewoman said:


> A dollar is roughly 80 euro cents today.
> can you figure the price out, I don't remember how much it was plus my cell is not really cooperative this morning in hopping from website to website
> 
> It's rather expensive. Always was, but it's worth it IMO
> ...


 Are you talking about the Sentinel? 
I am from the UK but now live in the US - Connecticut. I buy it from Tractor Supply or Blue Seal


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

No the German feed which seems ideal. It would translate to $30 but the bigger question is 300grams per day equals how many pounds and a 20kg bag equals what? lol I never did learn the metric system.

It is similar to what my dog gets and her food costs me $80 for 29 lbs so I can only imagine what that would translate to to feed a horse.

The Sentinel looks to be as close as good as the US will have. But if it costs to much I simply cannot afford it. I work full time but I also go to school full time too so money is tight.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

1 kg is 2.2 lbs, so 300grams are a little over half a pound and 20kg are 44lbs
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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Plus, German feed has the energetic value in MJ, this is 8.5MJ
soooo......let's do the math:
it'll be in kg tho ;-)
1 kg if grass hay, medium quality, has about 6 MJ
She needs I guess, 55MJ a day
you weigh her hay, convert in kg x 6 MJ and make up the difference with feed. Since she still needs to gain, add 20% to her allowance = 66MJ

lbs : 2.2= kg
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

So if my calculations are correct if feeding 300g per 100kg of body weight that would be roughly 2lbs per day? So roughly $45 a month. That isn't bad at all. Given my calculations could be way off.

Now my bf does get like 80% of fedex lol and like I said my uncle lives in Germany.... 

It seems like it isn't all that expensive at all. As with the cheap complete feed she was getting it was costing $86 a month.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

You could be right
Gotta go out and save my water trough being knocked over by my chubby little ay-rab....brb
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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I'm back....chubby little ay-rab wanted to play;-)

You could also check out some other feeds on that site. The NSC values should be given for every feed there. Look at "Beste Jahre" and Nutristar" also. 
Little less pricey and maybe better for weightgain. 
The list of all ingredients is there, same as here, most comes first. And remember, the higher the MJ value the less you need.
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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

They also make a hay substitute which is THE best I've ever seen. It's called pre-alpin. Very low NSC, full of herbs and different grasses, dustfree, allergen free. Costly of course, but awesome!!!
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Hmm well I will definately be looking into it. The biggest factor would be shipping of course. Unless by some miracle I can find an affordable option here in the states.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

If you find it, let me know
im at a point now where im ready to "steal" the hippolyt herb formula, buy the single herbs here and feed them.... ;-)
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

You know even my dog food comes straight from Canada... what are we doing wrong here... I'm seriously considering finding out how much this would cost to ship lol. I will have to do some research.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Hippolyt makes dog food too.....while you're at it......;-)
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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

www.dhlworldwide.com

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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Just remembered, I used to work with a freight forwarder some years ago, but they are still in business. Emo Trans
They have an office in Chicago for sure, and do a lot of horse stuff. It might be an idea calling them to see if they have regularly scheduled flights between Germany and Chicago where a couple of bags of feed could be thrown in. Don't know if there are any restrictions for horsefeed. But they do it all, all paperwork and customs procedures. I used to import tack and supplements to Germany from the YS with them and was always very pleased with their service.
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Work computer is not cooperating so I will have to look stuff up tonight at home.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Your work computer and my cell must be related.......;-)
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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*feed*

Its something the carrier would probably have to get permission to do.
I had all of my dried flowers confiscated when we moved here from the UK
I did look at the gov website and there isn't anything specific that I can see. The US does seem to be on 'catch up' with Europe on feeds that are low or zero sugar/mollasses
Prohibited and Restricted Items - CBP.gov


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I remember well trying to get MSM through customs in Germany. They would let it in but didn't know how to declare it....mineral/vitamin supplements were a no-no....took us two hours to agree on 'sulfur supplement for equine use' and about 100$.....
But the freight forwarder should he able to answer that.
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