# Hackamore Fitting



## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

Ok, so I got a new rubber covered chain hackamore, and it doesn't look like it fits right. I tossed my fleece lined one for the same reason (horse sized, but it was so cheap that I figured it was sized weird and that's why I got it for so little money...), I'm thinking I need to go up a size when purchasing these. I'm kicking myself in the butt here, because it is SUPPOSE to fit him, all the measurements are right, but it looks wrong! I don't have a photo of him in the new hackamore, I plan on returning it. But here is a photo of the one I tossed into the junk pile, it obviously fits incorrectly and you can see that from the photo. 

Please attach photos of* your horses wearing their hakamores *(not bosal's, those are fail proof). For one thing, I would love to see photos of your horses without pain bits! And for another, none of the photos on google's search results were what I'm looking to compare to. I would like to see *how everyone else's hackamores fit their horses.*


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

.

Hard to see in the pic, is there something attached and going in his mouth?



http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Halfeng_Horse_wearing_hackamore.jpg




.


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> .
> 
> Hard to see in the pic, is there something attached and going in his mouth?
> 
> ...


Just a piece of hay he snuck while I was getting my camera out. It's a fleece lined hackamore he's wearing, not a combination. It doesn't fit. I bought this hackamore and it doesn't fit either: Saddles Tack Horse Supplies - ChickSaddlery.com Horse Rubber Nose Bike Chain Hackamore

I need to see what that one looks like on other peoples horses to see if maybe I'm just looking at it from the wrong perspective. This is the first of it's kind that I've ever owned.


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## Horsecrazy4 (Nov 24, 2012)

Mine isn't rubber but here is a pic of daughters pony w hers on...







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_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

Horsecrazy4 said:


> Mine isn't rubber but here is a pic of daughters pony w hers on...


On both of those horses the shanks line up with the mouth, mine lines up with... his nostril area. Hahaha I'm taking it back tomorrow! I paid $30, I knew that was too good of a price. I need to just bite the bullet and splurge on yet another "bit". Haha I think my gelding is just a fat head and needs a draft sized hackamore. Thanks so much for those pictures, I KNEW that was what these long shank hackamores are suppose to look like on the horse! Major help!:clap:


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

How do you like the leather one? It seems very light weight, and my gelding is still at the point in his training where he has to be "told" stuff, and not just do it perfect every time. He's only 5, so he still desperately wants to be the boss of everyone, it takes a few minutes to warm him up and I'm not sure if the leather one would be right for us yet?


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## Horsecrazy4 (Nov 24, 2012)

No problem  glad that helped  we got ours from a buddy who runs a tack shop for $15 w tags on it  obyw ur horse has a nice head  doesn't look that big 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horsecrazy4 (Nov 24, 2012)

I just had a thought maybe if u try a different headstall? That might work 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horsecrazy4 (Nov 24, 2012)

My daughters pony took to it really good  she runs her in barrels and can be a butt lol.. She turns like a dream now  she would walk thurgh any bit we put on her  so tried this and worked 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

Horsecrazy4 said:


> I just had a thought maybe if u try a different headstall? That might work
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I actually have a leather one I use when I ride, it's a perfect fit. That blue one was a bad online purchase.


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## Horsecrazy4 (Nov 24, 2012)

Lol we have done that to  hubby wanted a set got it and no one will use it lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

Horsecrazy4 said:


> My daughters pony took to it really good  she runs her in barrels and can be a butt lol.. She turns like a dream now  she would walk thurgh any bit we put on her  so tried this and worked
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My gelding tosses his head if he has a bit in his mouth. But usually when I get the chance to ride, it's on my property and I don't even tack him up, I just do the one rein thing bareback. I have a bit of a breather from nursing school right now, so I am panicking trying to find the perfect fit hackamore to hit the trails with. He still spooks, so the whole one rein thing is a no go for the trails! LOL


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

He's being upgraded from a stop and turn, they are a very harsh hackamore. I might consider checking out the leather one, it's very eye catching! Is there anything beneath the braided leather?


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## Horsecrazy4 (Nov 24, 2012)

Lol  we looked at the rubber one but thought the leather would be better for her  and was having a lot of problems w getting her to take a bit  have u hade his teeth checked? I had a 6 yr old gelding that was a head tosser, got his teeth floated rode a lot better no more head tossing  also vet let me feel his teeth omg my arm was full of scratches kinda crazy 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horsecrazy4 (Nov 24, 2012)

There is a bicycle chain between the leather.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

Horsecrazy4 said:


> There is a bicycle chain between the leather.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I didn't know there was a chain between the leather, that's the same as the rubber then. Pretty much. I floated his teeth 3 months ago, I check him very often for sharp edges. When I was learning how to float and use my fingers to check the teeth, I pulled my hand out of his mouth a tooth filleted my thumb. :-(


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## Horsecrazy4 (Nov 24, 2012)

have u tried the other headstall w the hack? I know we had to get a smaller headstall to make it fit better  I wish I had more answers for head tossing  my hubby's colts head shrinks n gets bigger I think lol he was riding him last week his headstall was to big but just a cpl day earlier it was to small ) lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horsecrazy4 (Nov 24, 2012)

He was throwing his head around never seen him do that. Hubby adjusted his headstall then he was fine 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

Horsecrazy4 said:


> He was throwing his head around never seen him do that. Hubby adjusted his headstall then he was fine
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He doesn't throw his head in a hackamore, unless he's just pitching a "fit". But after warming up he get's over it. He will toss his head the whole time with a bit in his mouth though, bits are real painful. A well trained horse will deal with it. Have you ever heard of soring? It's an illegal practice that some racking horse owners do to make their horse walk a certain way. It's so horrible!!!!!!


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## Horsecrazy4 (Nov 24, 2012)

certain bits and heavy hands  I think someone made a post about it made me sad  when my daughter rides my gelding mind u she is 65 lbs wet lol.. But I always tell her he is very soft in mouth and she can't pull at all on him  her pony she had trouble w bit and the hackamore has made a totally diff pony  that's cool I hope u can get one that fits him rite  I don't know where u from but a buddy of ours runs a tack shop if u can't find the leather one 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

Horsecrazy4 said:


> certain bits and heavy hands  I think someone made a post about it made me sad  when my daughter rides my gelding mind u she is 65 lbs wet lol.. But I always tell her he is very soft in mouth and she can't pull at all on him  her pony she had trouble w bit and the hackamore has made a totally diff pony  that's cool I hope u can get one that fits him rite  I don't know where u from but a buddy of ours runs a tack shop if u can't find the leather one
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm in FL. We have a few tack stores around my town, but they are all slim pickings! The closest one to me had about 15 bits today, that's where I got the rubber hackamore. I'm definitely taking it back tomorrow, the owner said she can order whatever, I will make a request. She has the best prices around here.


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## Horsecrazy4 (Nov 24, 2012)

That's cool prob a lot warmer then Indiana rite know  kelp me posted of what u think of it  like I said my daughters pony is a totally different pony w it 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

Bits are only painful in the wrong hands/improper use. Stating so, I feel, is a bit uneducated. 

The softest, mildest bit a horse can use is a loose ring snaffle. If not a loose ring, then a french link. 

Hackamores can be just as dangerous/painful for a horse as (if I remember right) it relies on facial and poll pressure. There are a lot of nerves in a horses face. 

If you are yanking, pulling and being heavy handed on the bit, of course a horse is going to fuss. 

A well trained horse can be ridden in the mildest bits. Not "deal" with it. It gives clearer instruction, and some actually quite prefer bits verses hacks or bosals. Some are indifferent. Some can't handle bits because of how their face is structured. 

I think maybe you should do more research on bits and bitless riding.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

I have a couple of hackamores with that style of shank. I see the hackamore is sitting low on his face. By the looks of that bridle you've run out of "shortening" capability so will have to use another one but if you got it moved up some more I think you'd be happier with the fit. Also, when the hackamore is raised you'll probably need to loosen the curb strap so that it will fall into the chin groove better. The ones I have have a fleece lined leather nose strap and when they were knew they were on the stiff side. I had to invest time into oiling them and working the leather back and forth to soften them up - once that happened they lay on the face better and that may be something you have to look at as well.

With regard to his head tossing when he is wearing the bit, I don't know what you're using for a bit but some horses have a low palette (roof of the mouth) and the wrong style of bit (most commonly a bit with a port or sometimes any thicker mouthpiece) makes it uncomfortable. This may be something to consider and investigate as well.

Finally, I use my hackamores for trail riding on horses that have already been schooled in a snaffle bit and work off my legs and weight. This style of hackamore does not lend itself very well to the intricacies of direct reining which is frequently required when working with green horses. Otherwise, the horses and I like them.


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

Deschutes said:


> Bits are only painful in the wrong hands/improper use. Stating so, I feel, is a bit uneducated.
> 
> The softest, mildest bit a horse can use is a loose ring snaffle. If not a loose ring, then a french link.
> 
> ...


Metal bits in the mouth = Less Horsemanship, more pain, and a lack of partnership between horse and rider.

Any horse can be saved from the bit if they are prepared and set up for success. The result= a happier horse. Any well known professional trainer will say that the most supple horses they have come across are hackamore horses. This is because the horse is not being forced to act as asked, but rather does because he was taught. I can say the word "left" and my horse knows to turn left. I say "right" and he turns right. I can say "whoa" and he knows to stop. Right now, he knows 25 verbal commands. 80% of the time I don't have to touch the reins to his neck. My gelding is 5, he's got a lot of learning to do, but I set him up for success with confidence in him 100% of the time. I'm not his master, we have a partnership. We have to, I am putting my life at his discretion every time I climb on his back. I'm not going to put a bit in his mouth and force him to do as I say, I just don't see the point. I'm not afraid of him, and I certainly don't want him to fear me. I want respect, and I show him respect in return. A loose ring snaffle and a French link snaffle most certainly are not the kindest bits. Technically the kindest bit is a Myler combination. It's designed to apply nose pressure first, then mouth. And the joint is completely enclosed so it cannot be bent in half. Snaffles pinch the tongue no matter how you pull it. Try putting the snaffle on the soft part of your arm, or better yet on your tongue, let someone else pull back as if trying to stop a horse, or pull for a turn. It hurts. When a horse is in training, he doesn't have a bit in his mouth he has a halter on. The halter applies nose and poll pressure. So, the horse is always confused and upset when that first bit is put in his mouth, he has no idea what is going on but he still tries to choose the right answer. When the horse doesn't give to the first light tug, the trainer tugs harder, and harder until he does what is being asked. The horse learns what to do. Why not keep that same halter concept, and stay off the bit? This makes more sense to me. Snaffle bits shut off the horses air passage, drive into their tongue, pinch them, tension in the mouth puts tension throughout their whole body. 

Here is a great description of how a snaffle works for a horse. Fast forward to 3:40, where Dale Myler demonstrates the snaffle concept on a girls arm. This is the most informative information you could ever receive about snaffle bits. And if you use them, I DEFINITELY recommend you to watch the whole thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqGXCWVSS0Y

Here's a link to a video of how the bit effects the horse in light or heavy hands:


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

It is still of my opinion, and that of others on this forum, that bits are only harmful in the wrong hands. A french link is a favorite of many, especially for horses who do not prefer the nutcracker action of a regular snaffle. 

And again, I think spouting that bits are "painful" is uneducated.


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

Different horses have different preferences. And there are many different bits to accommodate, it depends on the horse and the bit in use.


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

Chevaux said:


> I have a couple of hackamores with that style of shank. I see the hackamore is sitting low on his face. By the looks of that bridle you've run out of "shortening" capability so will have to use another one but if you got it moved up some more I think you'd be happier with the fit. Also, when the hackamore is raised you'll probably need to loosen the curb strap so that it will fall into the chin groove better. The ones I have have a fleece lined leather nose strap and when they were knew they were on the stiff side. I had to invest time into oiling them and working the leather back and forth to soften them up - once that happened they lay on the face better and that may be something you have to look at as well.
> 
> With regard to his head tossing when he is wearing the bit, I don't know what you're using for a bit but some horses have a low palette (roof of the mouth) and the wrong style of bit (most commonly a bit with a port or sometimes any thicker mouthpiece) makes it uncomfortable. This may be something to consider and investigate as well.
> 
> Finally, I use my hackamores for trail riding on horses that have already been schooled in a snaffle bit and work off my legs and weight. This style of hackamore does not lend itself very well to the intricacies of direct reining which is frequently required when working with green horses. Otherwise, the horses and I like them.



I tried the bits before I knew anything about horsemanship. Everyone has to start somewhere right? My poor gelding, would just toss his head and toss his head the whole time it was in his mouth!

I never even considered oiling that short shank hackamore I have. I literally bought it, put it on him with a halter I bought online (bad online purchase), and didn't like the way the hackamore itself sat. It is fleece lined, but the fleece is a dark brown so it is hard to see that it's there. It has a buckle in the center, that extends or retracts the shanks, and it's all the way extended. It still sits real high on his face, and the leather is pretty thin so I'm not sure if I could stretch it.


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

Deschutes said:


> It is still of my opinion, and that of others on this forum, that bits are only harmful in the wrong hands. A french link is a favorite of many, especially for horses who do not prefer the nutcracker action of a regular snaffle.
> 
> And again, I think spouting that bits are "painful" is uneducated.


From my personal life experience, the only time I found bits to be acceptable was when I was uneducated.
Metal bits in the mouth = Less Horsemanship, more pain, and a lack of partnership between horse and rider.


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

I'm not going to force the issue, but I wouldn't suggest offering it to every person on the street. 

I know a lady in real life that I respect, who is going bitless. Yet her horse's brakes are a bit to be desired for because he needs a chin strap. He tends to go dangerous speeds (I and others have experienced this) without. Whether or not bitless options offer what he needs, is not sure. 

Point being... Some horses may need a bit due to that they don't understand bitless pressure. Or they just take advantage. Especially for novice riders who don't know how to use seat or leg, or how to use it well. 

Other horses, as I stated before, prefer bits, and there is a gentleman on this forum who has a horse exactly like that. 

I'm not trying to bash bitless riding, I ride bitless recreationally when bareback, and pretty much only then (unless a horse is fitted with bitless tack). I just prefer that people understand that bits aren't evil nasty things made to harm horses (well... Some contraptions out there I can't even think as to WHY they were made) but are tools for the horse.


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## cowgirl4753 (Aug 3, 2012)

I am glad that you have found something that works well for you and your horse.
Have you looked into the 'little s' hackamores? They have smaller shanks on them so not as much pressure to the poll or face.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/about-riding-bitless-140246/


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

cowgirl4753 said:


> I am glad that you have found something that works well for you and your horse.
> Have you looked into the 'little s' hackamores? They have smaller shanks on them so not as much pressure to the poll or face.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I like them, but they are more designed for barrel racing. I like the one I bought, but it's too small.


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

Deschutes said:


> www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/about-riding-bitless-140246/


Here's a quote from that post:
"FOURTH, it's not fair to newbies to push bitless on them.* TOO MANY don't think about how powerful their horses are and TOO MANY already get hurt just trying to ride their new mounts--I refuse to encourage anybody to "fly" before they can walk.* "Rugged Lark" had who-knows-how-many-hours of expert training by Lynn Palm before she did those 10 years of demos. Just like ballerinas aren't allowed to learn pointe before their muscles and training are ready, our horses shouldn't be even Tried bitless before THEIR training is ready."

Horses are powerful creatures, and people don't think about how powerful they are, and how badly they can get hurt, so I think that we should put painful metal in the horses mouth so we can't get hurt by our powerful horses because we're scared of getting hurt and we don't know jack about horses and how to train them to ride properly. 

Knowledge is power. Spend the time learning how to train this powerful creature to trust you. When you set your horse up for failure he fails. Point blank. Obviously you did not educate yourself with any of the material I sent you, when I took the time to read that BS. I took on the responsibility of buying my gelding, I took on the willingness to gain knowledge about these amazing creatures to better their well being out of love and respect. I don't set my horse or anyone else's horse up for failure. So let's play it safe and CHEAT by putting a bit in the horses mouth so that way we can control him instead of training him. 

*"NOBODY wants to ride a horse out of control, and that little bit of metal makes a BIG difference in control. God even made a space for it in the horse's mouth.*"
Yeah, you think this massive creature is being controlled by the bit? Of course he is! It hurts! If someone walked up and punched me in the arm, I would jerk my arm away because it hurt! This person obviously obviously obviously has no partnership with their animals.


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

Then tell that to corporal who is actually quite a well respected member of this forum.


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

To say ALL bits are painful is uneduacated. If your horse works better bitless then good for you. My horse loves her fat french-link and I don't plan on fixing what isn't broken. Your hackamore is too low on his face from the way it looks. To say a person has poor horsemanship if they use a bit will offend at least 85% of the members on here. Many of whom have many years of successfully showing, breeding and training horses under their belts. If you want to get your opinion out there, you need to respects other people's opinions as well.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Sorry but hackamores actualy cause more pain then bits do perticularly in bad hands. I've seen a horse who had a broken nose because of a hackamore and most horses I've ever seen in hackamores had serious issues about thier poll.

Please show me how Squeezing a horses face between 2 pieces of metal whilst having serious leverage is possible a "kind" way of controlling a horse. At least with a bit a horse can avoid the contact by dropping behind the bit!


The signals from a hackamore are muddy and unrefined so cause confusion in alot of horses, this confusion often causes distress to young horses.

I've never found a horse that "likes" a hackmore, plenty that will tolerate but not a single one that is happy.

The hackamore in the first picture is too low to start with and will therefore press on the soft part of the horses nose restricting thier breathing


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Elizabethan87 said:


> Yeah, you think this massive creature is being controlled by the bit? Of course he is!


In the _right_ hands horses are not _controlled _by the bit. Bit is a _communication _device, NOT a punishment or controlling tool. BTW mechanical hackamores are more harsh and dangerous then bit, especially in the hands of the beginner. 

I'd suggest to do some more reading about hackamores, bits, etc. And may be check your horse's teeth and training level before blaming the head tossing on bits.


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

kitten_Val said:


> In the _right_ hands horses are not _controlled _by the bit. Bit is a _communication _device, NOT a punishment or controlling tool. BTW mechanical hackamores are more harsh and dangerous then bit, especially in the hands of the beginner.
> 
> I'd suggest to do some more reading about hackamores, bits, etc. And may be check your horse's teeth and training level before blaming the head tossing on bits.


Alright, now I know as a fact that my horsemanship skills are far beyond this idiotic conversation my thread has been reverted too. That is the most rediculous crap I have ever heard! I've had horses my entire life, and I've been on both sides of the line here with bit use. I guarantee that I am 100% right in my statement that horses don't "LOVE" the big peice of pinching metal in their mouth. I bet your horses have algae in their water bucket too. And I bet you board at a facility. And ride English. And wear helmets. And hold the lead rope under the chin. And I bet you're going to reply in defense to these facts at how you most certainly are none if these things blah blah blah. If you use a bit, you don't know how to train your horse. FACT
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Elizabethan87 said:


> If you use a bit, you don't know how to train your horse. FACT


:rofl: Of course I don't know. And both my trainers (showing nationally and medal winners) don't know any better too!

Actually, the whole post made me just :rofl::clap:Algae in a water! Hold the lead rope under the chin (who's chin, BTW, mine or my horse's?)! :rofl: Thank you for the good start this morning!


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

*MOD NOTE*

While disagreement is fine and welcomed here on the forum, reverting to calling other members names is not and will not be tolerated. I would highly suggest reading our rules and etiquette policy.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Elizabethan87 said:


> Alright, now I know as a fact that my horsemanship skills are far beyond this idiotic conversation my thread has been reverted too. That is the most rediculous crap I have ever heard! I've had horses my entire life, and I've been on both sides of the line here with bit use. I guarantee that I am 100% right in my statement that horses don't "LOVE" the big peice of pinching metal in their mouth. I bet your horses have algae in their water bucket too. And I bet you board at a facility. And ride English. And wear helmets. And hold the lead rope under the chin. And I bet you're going to reply in defense to these facts at how you most certainly are none if these things blah blah blah. If you use a bit, you don't know how to train your horse. FACT
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nope I have ponies at home, all horses have perfectly fresh water. My ponies will lead from a rope around thier neck or by a hand on the front of thie rug. Heck Reeco will lead just from body language alone, I dont have to bother with anything on his head to lead him.
I wear a helmet because I actualy have a brain to protect! Riding without one proves only that you dont value your head enough

Reeco loves his bit, it mean going new and exciting places. I dont have to ask him to open his mouth for it by the time I've picked it up and lifted it to his head then his mouth is open, he then loses the ability to stand still as he is so excited.

I would say that it is you that has no idea how to train a horse since you obviously have no idea how the equipment you are using actually works. Mechanical hackamores work by causing pain on an extremly sensitive part of the horses body. Phycics shows that by using the shanks on the hackamore you are increaseing the pounds per square inch force on your horses head 4 fold or more depending opn the length of your shank, the action of a hackamore is that when you use the reins the chain over his nose squeezes downward.

Come back and brag about your horsemanship when you dont need anything on a horses head at all to do a GP dressage test or jump a 5ft course. 

Riding a horse without a bit prooves nothing without results to back it up. There are very few horsey children who havnt ridden a horse in from a field in just a halter. Heck I've galloped a nutty arab down from the top field with nothing other than a rope round his neck. As I was 13 yrs old at the time i highly doubt it was due to stellar horsemanship, more likely it was down to a saint of a horse and my own lack of knowlege


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Bit vs No bit aside, I think that anyone who limits themselves to one tool and training option with their horses is missing out on a lot of opportunity to better themselves & their animals. Keeping an open mind is a big benefit when it comes to horses. 

I do both. Every horse I own is started in a bit and ridden the majority of the time with one. Like anything else it's a tool. It's a way to teach something and get from point a to point b. Point a being the beginning stages, point b being a finished horse (in whatever discipline you choose). When I say I do both, bitless around here is bridleless. Zilch for hardware, no need for a hack, no need for anything. At that point they have learned to work on seat & leg alone. 

Leading, pretty sure every rope or lead shank I've seen attaches to a ring under the halter so everyone "leads" their horse under the chin technically. I expect my horses at my shoulder, no exceptions. In a show pen, yes my hand will be under their chin as that is proper. At home, meh, I just toss the rope over my shoulder or don't use one at all a lot of times because they know exactly what I expect and where they should be. I can work showmanship patterns with no halter or lead with every horse I own, down to the youngest who is a coming yearling. Manners are manners regardless of how a person holds the lead. 

To the hack part of this discussion, as others have said they can be extremely harsh (more so than bits in many cases). As Faye noted, they rest on an extremely sensitive spot on the horses face. I have met more than a few horses with nerve damage as well as broken facial bones from a hack. I own one, it's a dust catcher on my tack room wall.

As far as questioning experience and knowledge because of what one does or does not use, that is pretty judgemental and false in many cases. I can only speak for myself but I was born into a horse family, had a trainer for a parent, was mentored by hall of fame trainers. I've started and been on hundreds (possibly close to the thousand mark these days) of horses, using a bit does not make me inexperienced by a long way.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Gee. Here I find out that I have not known what I was doing for the last 55 years. All these years I thought mechanical hackamores were torture devices in the hands of many riders. I guess I was just imagining all the bloody noses and chins I have seen with them. I've seen more than one permanently scarred nose from an unpadded chain hackamore and a heavy handed rider. I guess you never get too old to learn.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Elizabethan87 said:


> ...Yeah, you think this massive creature is being controlled by the bit? Of course he is! It hurts! If someone walked up and punched me in the arm, I would jerk my arm away because it hurt! This person obviously obviously obviously has no partnership with their animals.


A partnership is nice, but the person needs to be in control for the safety of BOTH the horse and rider. My mare likes a gallop in the desert, but she doesn't like to slow down - and she doesn't care about gullies, or sharp turns, or rocks. She would be entirely willing to hit a sharp turn at full speed, and then fall, with me, on rocky ground. Why? Because she doesn't think that far ahead. Not when she is excited.

My Appy is MUCH more level-headed, but he PREFERS a bit. Bits are NOT about pain, but about communication. That needs to be in Horsemanship 101.

If you are inclined to rip your horse's face off, then bits hurt. If you ride like that, a mechanical hackamore can break bones. If you use a bit to COMMUNICATE, then it allows far better communication than a mechanical hackamore. You are less likely to injure a horse using a simple snaffle than with a mechanical hackamore.

You cannot ride 'relationship'. That also ought to be in horsemanship 101. Why? Because horses are extremely powerful, and not real smart - not in the sense of thinking ahead. They are emotional creatures, which is one of the reasons we like them. But when a horse's emotions get strong, he becomes intoxicated on them. He's like a drunk in a bar, and thinks about as well. He is depending on the human to think for him. 

That is the real relationship, where both benefit. *The human's mind & the horse's power*. With training and good communication between the two, it is possible. And it is incredible, and exhilarating. And it only can happen if you can communicate and yes control your horse. Until then, you're just sitting on top and hoping nothing bad happens...

Relying on a horse to think for you is like riding in a car with a drunk driver. Horses need to be appreciated for what they are, not for what they can never be.:-x


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Elizabethan87 said:


> Alright, now I know as a fact that my horsemanship skills are far beyond this idiotic conversation my thread has been reverted too. That is the most rediculous crap I have ever heard! _e_


WOW, that is ..................I don't have words to say what that is.

If this is the most rediculous (sic) crap you have ever heard, or more technically read, then you should get out more, try boarding,then you will hear a lot more stupid.

As for your horsemanship skills, well by rubbishing completely the notion that a bit is, or should be, just a means of communication then it tells me what sort of rider you are. I strongly believe in the western progression in bits, from halter to snaffle to mild curb, to long curb, to spade bit, showing how the horse is so well trained that the merest signal on the bit gives the cue the horse needs. Trouble is I am not a good enough rider to be allowed out with anything other than a mild curb.

If you truly don't see that it is the use of all these tools that is the issue, then I feel sorry for you. In fact in a blinding flash of light I do understand how you feel, it is exactly the same argument as "Guns don't kill people, people do" The bit is nothing until human hand engages it.

From my limited experience, as both English and western rider, it is very much my horses choice what they are ridden in..

Mr G love him, was a pretty laid back guy, rode him in a mild curb for western, snaffle for English. As we get so cold up here during the winter I tough we would go bitless, side pull he loved, horrible scary looking western hack that I was given, with huge shanks, he loved, bought nice little short shanked Eglish hack because it is milder, I had to get DH to come and hold him so I could get off because he was trying to buck the whole time, can I say he hated it:wink:

I can go on, some horses love broken bits, some a straight bit, some will go bitless, some wont, strangely everyone here HATED the nurtual type cross under bridle. The key is to find what works for each horse and rider partnership, and not to close your mind to any possibility.


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## Lockwood (Nov 8, 2011)

Elizabethan87 said:


> Alright, now I know as a fact that my horsemanship skills are far beyond this idiotic conversation my thread has been reverted too. That is the most rediculous crap I have ever heard! I've had horses my entire life, and I've been on both sides of the line here with bit use. I guarantee that I am 100% right in my statement that horses don't "LOVE" the big peice of pinching metal in their mouth. I bet your horses have algae in their water bucket too. And I bet you board at a facility. And ride English. And wear helmets. And hold the lead rope under the chin. And I bet you're going to reply in defense to these facts at how you most certainly are none if these things blah blah blah. If you use a bit, you don't know how to train your horse. FACT
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmmm… I used to ride western for 10 years, then English in h/j and 3 day eventers for 15+ years with a short stint on race horses too. 
I believe that is longer than many of the members here are old, and I‘ve been paid quite handsomely at times to manage farms for other people and train horses for other people.
Now, I ride a gaited horse, use an Aussie saddle, wear a helmet, wear cowboy boots, and wear whatever clothes I feel like. 

My horse leads by his mane when I‘m too lazy to grab a halter, will lead with just a loop around his neck, responds to looks and body language, hand signals, and even growls when I’m in a bad mood.
If I say jump, he says “Yes Ma’am, how high ma’am?” and has impeccable manners.

I’ll be happy to trop out to the barn in a moment and check the bucket, but I’m pretty sure his and all other 60 plus critters here on my farm have impeccably clean water buckets.

So what, in all your vast horse experience….does that make me?


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Elizabethan87

You say a horse hates having a bit in his mouth?

FACT: The stallion in my avatar photo loved being ridden so much that when it came time to tack him up he would keep grabbing at the bit in an effort to speed up the bridling process. He never seemed to understand how much he was slowing the process up by doing this.

he was an unusually intelligent horse, so I just don't see him doing this if the bit hurt him as much as you say it does. He definitely didn't endure anything painful without protest. Just ask the vet.....


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Oh yes, because the horse pictured in the first post with the hackamore looks _so excited_ about what's coming next.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I'd also like to point out that the head piece on the bridle is on backwards (throaght lash should come from the back of the bridle not the front,) the throaght lash is done up way to tight to the point where it may comprimise his breathing when you winch his head in, oh and the horse looks thoroughly miserable


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

COmpaire the first pic with my pony who wears a bit so is in pain according to Elizabethan87

















I can tell you which horse looks happier


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

All bits are painful if used by very uneducated hands. Any training device is painful if used by someone uneducated. Did you know you can break a horses jaw with a mechanical hackamore?? I've seen it done, you can also damage the skin, nerves and bone and their nose. I find most people that are anti-bits are simply just scared of them. They are scared that their hands are not light enough and scared that they will hurt their horse. So they make incorrect assumptions that bits are evil. I have horses that rely on the bit to be ridden. Most of my spade horses are that way, they like the bit, they like the taste and they like playing with the cricket. It has a relaxing effect on them. Saying bits is poor horsemanship is completely wrong IMO. Any trainer I've seen worth a lick uses a bit. My hubby and I have been training professionally for quite a few years now. And we use bits, that doesn't make us bad horseman, people bring horses in from out of state for use to ride. Your horse tossing his head with the bit, is merely a hole in his training or an ill fitting or ill adjusted headstall. Many people overlook the fact that having your headstall adjusted just right is a MAJOR factor in how a horse responds. but the assumptions that bits are evil and poor horsemanship is dead wrong. And good trainer will tell you that a mechanical hackamore is a worthless contraption, and I have to agree..


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

And just to add, I saw in a post of how a snaffle obstructs the air passage of a horse. Horses can breath out of their mouths! If your worried about obstructing the air passage, keep using a mechanical hackamore.


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Wanstrom Horses said:


> And just to add, I saw in a post of how a snaffle obstructs the air passage of a horse. Horses can breath out of their mouths! If your worried about obstructing the air passage, keep using a mechanical hackamore.


Edit: they CAN'T breath out of their mouths.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Oh my... 

Just to add to the original topic of this thread - here's my horse with an S hackamore:










Don't mind his grumpiness, though, he was in a particularly grumpy mood that day.


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## laurapratt01 (Oct 3, 2012)

I use a little s hackamore on my horse when I am competing in ranch sorting and it's exactly because of what Wanstom says.. I am not confident enough to think that I can ride that fast, making quick and abrupt turns without accidentally pulling or jerking on my horse's mouth. A hackamore makes sense for me to use in this case because I don't want to hurt my horse..alot of people who are beginning this sport (like I am) choose to use their leverage bits and I see them catching their horses in the mouth after being thrown off balance during a quick turn. That being said, there are some amazing riders who's horses' work great in the same circumstances with leverage bits. These riders have amazing balance and quiet aids. There are also riders who have to crank on a hack to get their horse to stop (which is obviously painful as well) and those same horses are much more willing to stop with the gentle pressure of a bit. I think it's all about being aware of your horses comfort. I do ride my horse in a bit occasionally and he works well in that as well. Do what is best for you and your horse. Every horse is different and a hackamore is NOT the best choice for everyone. Enjoy bitless riding but please realize that bits are not inhumane and don't make the people using them correctly feel poorly for their choice just because its not yours...


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Edit: they CAN'T breath out of their mouths.


The air passage is through the nostrils down the esophagus through the trachea and into the bronchioles (to sum it up, and I left out a few irrelevant organs there) just like in a human being, when you take your tongue and clog your throat with it, the air passage is shut off. Force your tongue into your throat and the epiglottis stops the nasal airway. This anatomy is a part of what I actually do for a living. You would be so surprised at how simply the air passage can be blocked. A hackamore doesn't sit on the nasal bone and cartilage, if fitted properly, it sits behind it. There have been so many scientific studies done on this issue. Show me a scientific study that's been conducted, where the bit is more sufficient and painless. I don't care whose hands it's in, where's the scientific proof?!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Elizabethan87 said:


> The air passage is through the nostrils down the esophagus through the trachea and into the bronchioles (to sum it up, and I left out a few irrelevant organs there) just like in a human being, when you take your tongue and clog your throat with it, the air passage is shut off. Force your tongue into your throat and the epiglottis stops the nasal airway. This anatomy is a part of what I actually do for a living. You would be so surprised at how simply the air passage can be blocked. A hackamore doesn't sit on the nasal bone and cartilage, if fitted properly, it sits behind it. There have been so many scientific studies done on this issue. Show me a scientific study that's been conducted, where the bit is more sufficient and painless. I don't care whose hands it's in, where's the scientific proof?!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And in the picture, your hackamore is NOT adjusted properly. And the tongue is not shoved into the horses throat. It rests under the bit. You may do anatomy for a living, but I train horses for a living. Like stated before, any trainer worth a lick will tell you a mechanical hackamore is worthless. Show me the correct scientific study proving a mechanical hackamore a painless and a bit is. I have yet to see anything but YouTube videos still stating opinions and nothing more.


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

And how does the hackamore not rest on the nasal bone? If you would please enlighten me on that, if it is adjusted properly, it does rest on the nasal bone. Your argument is invalid..


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Elizabethan87 said:


> ...Show me a scientific study that's been conducted, where the bit is more sufficient and painless. I don't care whose hands it's in, where's the scientific proof?!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"Hilary M. Clayton, BVMS, PhD, Dipl. ACVSMR, MRCVS, Mary Anne McPhail Dressage Chair in Equine Sports Medicine at Michigan State University, explained ... new biomechanical findings in equitation science can help riders make more informed decisions about equipment use and also dispel certain myths about bridles, bits, and reins.

According to Clayton, soft tissues such as the tongue, for example, are better suited to handling pressure than hard tissues like the nose bone and the palate (the roof of the horse's mouth). "The horse's tongue can be very sensitive but it can also withstand a lot of different kinds of pressure," she said during her plenary lecture at the 2011 International Society for Equitation Science Conference, held Oct. 26-29 in Hooge Mierde, The Netherlands.

"From my point of view, I would be a lot more concerned about pressure directly on the hard tissues (and) the bones, rather than the soft tissues which have a lot more ability to absorb the forces," she said."​The Horse | Researcher Evaluates Bit, Rein Interaction with Equine Mouth | TheHorse.com


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"Bits have been implicated in a variety of respiratory problems. During this study, no evidence of pathologic upper airway obstruction was seen. Similarly, no differences in respiratory parameters were measured when horses with intermittent dorsal displacement of the soft palate (DDSP) wore a tongue-tie or no tongue-tie.

Another study failed to find increased negative inspiratory pressures prior to palate displacement. These results, as well as the lack of DDSP in our study, do not support the suggestion that bits cause an increase in negative inspiratory pressures that, in turn, can lead to DDSP.​http://horseproblems.com.au/Bits/ECEP_swallowing.pdf


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

Saranda said:


> Oh my...
> 
> Just to add to the original topic of this thread - here's my horse with an S hackamore:
> 
> ...


I really like the look of that one! I like that horse too! How do you like it as far as functionability goes?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

I like it better than riding in a rope halter in sense of schooling a horse. It helps me be more precise and light with my hands, and I can easily learn classic dressage almost the same way I would be learning it with a bit. I tried a sidepull before, but my horse disliked the type of pressure it gives, so I tried out several hackamores and stopped at the S, to which he responds perfectly well.


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

Faye, the curb strap is loose, that's why it's at that point on his chin, it does look like its tight though! But it really isn't. And that's awesome your ponies are so well behaved! If I walk out my back door and whistle, my gelding comes running to me and when I turn and walk to the shed he will stay right with me and stand to be tacked up or mounted. I love a horse that doesn't require any ropes to walk around, and you're lucky that your ponies are like that! Take some videos, I'd love to see them! My gelding will dance around next to me, mimicking my moves, my kids think it's the greatest thing and so do my friends and family. LOL I do ride bridless and bareback as well, around the property. I love it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Elizabethan87 said:


> Faye, the curb strap is loose, that's why it's at that point on his chin, it does look like its tight though! But it really isn't. And that's awesome your ponies are so well behaved! If I walk out my back door and whistle, my gelding comes running to me and when I turn and walk to the shed he will stay right with me and stand to be tacked up or mounted. I love a horse that doesn't require any ropes to walk around, and you're lucky that your ponies are like that! Take some videos, I'd love to see them! My gelding will dance around next to me, mimicking my moves, my kids think it's the greatest thing and so do my friends and family. LOL I do ride bridless and bareback as well, around the property. I love it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Faye wasn't talking about the curb strap, she clearly stated throat lash. Which is backwards and way too tight..


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

I won't say much... I'll let these pictures talk for themselves. They were taken at our farm, before we were educated on the fact that hackamoors can do huge amounts of damage. Yes, they are the EASY way, but they arent necessarily the right way. The average shank on a Mechanical hackamoor is 10 inches, which means ten times the pressure that you actually exert is being felt by their sensative nose if I remember right. I'm embarressed to show these to you, but if it helps you understand at all...




























Looks like a happy horse that is enjoying being ridden without a bit, huh? Luckily this mare is a total love and never did more than a crowhop or two to let us know her riders were SEVERELY hurting her. It took two years to get her 'fixed' though, and she still freezes up if we try to put that thing on her. She now rides in a mullen mouth snaffle. It doesn't pinch, doesn't twist, doesn't nutcracker. She loves it, and never looks like this anymore. (well...unless she sees a cat. She HATES cats xD)

And this gelding.


















He actually DID injure his nose because of the MH, and now has a very sensative nose. For that reason we only use western headstalls on him, no noseband as it bothers him. He's completely happy in a low ported curb bit (works with cattle and is an accreditted rodeo horse as well. He has to neck rein) and will ride quietly with just a halter too even though he's fairly hot.










Unfortunately some riders on our farm do still use MH, and they're the ones who are too lazy to take the time to train the horse to take the bit correctly, and to learn the finesse it takes to use a bit. The only exception is our mare Jasmine, who's tounge was cut up when her old owners left wire tangled in her hay and she sliced it through. She can't hold the bit properly so we do use an S hook or MH (rarely) on her. I can assure you though that my mare and the horses that I ride do not hate their bits, and my mare even grabs at her bit when she sees it because she knows that means we're going to go for a trail drive or learn something new. If I were hurting her or she didnt like her bit, I'd KNOW it because she is VERY sensative and has tried killing people who hurt her or put too much pressure on her. She lashes out at pain.

We're just cruel uneducated owners though so I don't know what I'm talking about. These horses obviously hate the fact that we torture them with cruel pieces of metal in their mouths.










(does this picture make anyone else giggle? Silly girl!)


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Thanks for sharing Endiku, once again, it is the rider that is the key, not what is on the horses head


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Sure is! If an experienced person were riding out on the trails or something on a totally fininshed, nonspooky horse and rode with zero contact except to lay the reins against the neck (MH was originally designed for neckreining anyways) then maybe I'd be ok with it. Otherwise, its just another form of force, just as bad as twisted snaffles and tomb thumbs IMO


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

Even with a bit, my gelding never acted like that, he just tosses his head up and down like he's nodding "yes". It's annoying. He just turned 5 years old. I weigh 104 lbs, and I'm 5 foot 7 1/2, I am a super light rider, and I don't direct rein when we ride out because he neck reins. And when I say whoa, I don't have to pull on the reins. The only time I will pull on the reins is when he spooks (never at something, it's always "nothing" and we're working on that!), I will lightly and quickly pull him into a circle until he calms down. 
So, since we are going to critique how I threw a bridle on my horse quickly for a photo and took it right back off without going for a ride, tell me all wise ones, how is the chin strap backwards? I certainly don't want the buckle against his skin. Even the rotating buckles, I turn them out for his comfort. 
If anyone wants to post more photos of their horses in their hackamores, please join me on another thread entitled "Who All Loves Their Hackamores! Age 25 and up please"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

[/QUOTE]

(does this picture make anyone else giggle? Silly girl!)







[/QUOTE]

Yes, that DOES make me giggle! I love how her eye looks. LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

I don't see why you have an age exclusion, as I am sure most of these people are well over 25. Just because you cannot handle criticism, or educated responses with medical responses attached, doesn't mean they are wrong or in any way should be belittled.


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

faye said:


> I'd also like to point out that the head piece on the bridle is on backwards (throaght lash should come from the back of the bridle not the front,) the throaght lash is done up way to tight to the point where it may comprimise his breathing when you winch his head in, oh and the horse looks thoroughly miserable


No, that one is done that way for a reason. I did that one purpose. His ears are back because he's listening to my daughter sitting on him talking about her day at school. He's not miserable, he has hay in his mouth.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

She's quite the little goof! I have to admit though...that picture was taken when I was still mouthing her. That bit had molasses all over it xD that look is a look of sheer delight. She lives for food.

As for those photos, I know most horses don't look like that all of the time (ours didnt always ofcourse. Most of those pictures were taken when transitioning down or turning...incorrectly obviously.) I posted those pictures as proof that hackamoors CAN hurt just as much as or more than bits, not to prove that you specifically are causing your horse to look like that. The idea that hackamoors can not hurt is bologna. (you have no idea how much I love spelling that word by the way.) Anything can hurt if its used wrong.

I like to judge hackamoor users case by case, and I don't know enough about you or your riding style to judge you so I won't. The head bobbing though, is likely him trying to release the pressure. Many horses do this when first introduced to bits as well. Its part of being a green horse that can easily become a bad habit if not corrected. How long did you try using a bit on him? Some horses take longer than others to get accustomed to something in their mouth (just like with people and braces or retainers. Some of us start out with no lisp in the first place and have no problems, other...like me...almost gag on it at first because we keep messing with it, and we sound absolutely rediculous for months xD) and you have to just keep working at it. My mare picked it up within a week and stopped chewing at it within 10 times of wearing it. She now carries it by herself on her tounge. Others, like the gelding I trained, fuss more and will bob their heads, chew, gape their mouth, and wag their tounge for weeks. Its just a matter of getting used to holding it. That is the time when you shouldn't be applying any pressure, just putting it on, maybe letting them snack on some hay for a while, then take it off. 

In reference to your new thread though...expect the same thing xD 99% of the people talking on this thread are definitely over 25. I think I'm the only exception. Actually you might have more sucess asking teenagers if they like them or not since it seems to be the fad... name calling or saying rude things about other forumers isn't going to get you anywhere though, I guarentee that. Most of these members are very well respected horsemen with years of experience behind them.


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Elizabethan87 said:


> Even with a bit, my gelding never acted like that, he just tosses his head up and down like he's nodding "yes". It's annoying. He just turned 5 years old. I weigh 104 lbs, and I'm 5 foot 7 1/2, I am a super light rider, and I don't direct rein when we ride out because he neck reins. And when I say whoa, I don't have to pull on the reins. The only time I will pull on the reins is when he spooks (never at something, it's always "nothing" and we're working on that!), I will lightly and quickly pull him into a circle until he calms down.
> So, since we are going to critique how I threw a bridle on my horse quickly for a photo and took it right back off without going for a ride, tell me all wise ones, how is the chin strap backwards? I certainly don't want the buckle against his skin. Even the rotating buckles, I turn them out for his comfort.
> If anyone wants to post more photos of their horses in their hackamores, please join me on another thread entitled "Who All Loves Their Hackamores! Age 25 and up please"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


YOUR CHIN STRAP IS NOT BACKWARDS... It is your THROATLASH. And it is too tight. Learn the parts of the bridle..


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Elizabethan87 said:


> Even with a bit, my gelding never acted like that, he just tosses his head up and down like he's nodding "yes". It's annoying. He just turned 5 years old. I weigh 104 lbs, and I'm 5 foot 7 1/2, I am a super light rider, and I don't direct rein when we ride out because he neck reins. And when I say whoa, I don't have to pull on the reins. The only time I will pull on the reins is when he spooks (never at something, it's always "nothing" and we're working on that!), I will lightly and quickly pull him into a circle until he calms down.
> So, since we are going to critique how I threw a bridle on my horse quickly for a photo and took it right back off without going for a ride, tell me all wise ones, how is the chin strap backwards? I certainly don't want the buckle against his skin. Even the rotating buckles, I turn them out for his comfort.
> If anyone wants to post more photos of their horses in their hackamores, please join me on another thread entitled "Who All Loves Their Hackamores! Age 25 and up please"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here is an illustration of how your THROATLASH should look...


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

Deschutes said:


> I don't see why you have an age exclusion, as I am sure most of these people are well over 25. Just because you cannot handle criticism, or educated responses with medical responses attached, doesn't mean they are wrong or in any way should be belittled.


It's how people construct their responses, I started this thread because I really was interested in it, I don't claim to know it all, you wanna talk about bits? Go to a bit thread not a hackamore thread. This is nature vs nurture here (i.e, one of the worlds #1 controversies!!!). I suggested Myler bits to the people who refused to "let it go". Yeah, Myler bits are $100+... They are steep. I actually have one collecting rust in the shed. I really love this forum! I I'm so disappointed that my clean and happy thread got spun into an opposite direction! Please join my other thread if you think it's something you'd like to discuss kindly. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beatrice9 (Jun 30, 2012)

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Here is an illustration of how your THROATLASH should look...


That's a different kind of bridle, see how that one has two attachments and mine has one? I pulled mine in the front, because the way that one is designed it was too bulky against him. And... Why am I explaining this. Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

I'm 17, and I'm pretty sure I conducted myself in a mature manner in both of my posts  just thought I'd throw that in. Its not age that matures you, its whether or not you're willing to take advice and grow off of it. There are plenty of immature, extremely bull headed 25, 35, and heck, probably even 65 year olds on this forum. Numbers are nothing when it comes to the ability to learn and take advice!

I also prefer Billy Allen bits for whatever reason. I think they're made better, but its my opinion. Just as expensive unfortunately... A good bit is a good bit though, no matter where it came from. I have a perfectly good copper half cheek, mullen mouth snaffle that I bought for $25 and it works just as well as my $135 Billy Allen bit to be honest, it just might not last as long.


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Elizabethan87 said:


> That's a different kind of bridle, see how that one has two attachments and mine has one? I pulled mine in the front, because the way that one is designed it was too bulky against him. And... Why am I explaining this. Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Never seen anyone do that before, my self included.. Looks too tight and twisted up to me, but whatever. I'm not going to argue with closed minded people any longer.


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

I was polite. I gave constructive information, and you decided to become rude. 

None of us assume we know anything, and your arrogant refusal to accept that maybe what you are saying, is wrong, is quite dangerous for horse and handler. 

Maybe you should rethink how you approach, and treat, some of these well experienced members of this forum.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Elizabethan87 said:


> That's a different kind of bridle, see how that one has two attachments and mine has one? I pulled mine in the front, because the way that one is designed it was too bulky against him. And... Why am I explaining this. Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because you are trying to make yourself look like you know something when in fact you don't. Every post shows your lack of experience and sadly often your lack of social skills.

I'm top side of 50, makes me old, means I have a bunch of experience, but hey I'm still learning.

TIP, when someone tells you your tack isn't fitted correctly it is good to so " Oh yes, thanks" and then put it right, not make excuses as to why it's wrong. I'm shocked that someone who doesn't want to use a bit doesn't care about the comfort of their horse in that sensitive spot behind their ears.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Elizabethan87 said:


> Alright, now I know as a fact that my horsemanship skills are far beyond this idiotic conversation my thread has been reverted too. That is the most rediculous crap I have ever heard! I've had horses my entire life, and I've been on both sides of the line here with bit use. I guarantee that I am 100% right in my statement that horses don't "LOVE" the big peice of pinching metal in their mouth. I bet your horses have algae in their water bucket too. And I bet you board at a facility. And ride English. And wear helmets. And hold the lead rope under the chin. And I bet you're going to reply in defense to these facts at how you most certainly are none if these things blah blah blah. If you use a bit, you don't know how to train your horse. FACT
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Around these parts, peops who ride bitless are called novices, exactly which olympic rider goes bitless? In the NRHA, which are bitless again, sorry missed it. With that statement, you just showed how little you know. It fine to enjoy your mechanical hackamore, but you never raise your skill level, or feel what's it's like to have a horse come to your hand, raise it's back muscles to your seat and allow you to frame him as you want. All you are going to get with a mech hack is steering & stop & reverse, all on the forehand.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> Because you are trying to make yourself look like you know something when in fact you don't. Every post shows your lack of experience and sadly often your lack of social skills.
> 
> I'm top side of 50, makes me old, means I have a bunch of experience, but hey I'm still learning.
> 
> TIP, when someone tells you your tack isn't fitted correctly it is good to so " Oh yes, thanks" and then put it right, not make excuses as to why it's wrong. I'm shocked that someone who doesn't want to use a bit doesn't care about the comfort of their horse in that sensitive spot behind their ears.


Thanks


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Look at it this way, Elizabeth. IF I had a thread about a bit that I was curious about , or wanted ideas on what bit to use, and someone asked why I don't use a hackamore and I said something like "people who use hackamores have no horsemanship skills and are cruel to their horses", it would really **** off a whole bunch of folks and set them bound and determined to explain why it wasn't cruel or a sign of bad horsemanship. 

Your blanket statements were pretty insulting to a large number of people here, so it's no surprise that "your" thread didn't turn out the way you thought it would.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I will add I am well over the age of 25 and have had horses since I was 2. I've cvompeted at top level in the showring and retrained difficult abused horses that proffessionals have told me to shoot so I'd say my horsemanship is very good thanks, perticularly as I have trainied a Para dressage horse who was longlisted for 2012.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Elizabethan87 said:


> Alright, now I know as a fact that my horsemanship skills are far beyond this idiotic conversation my thread has been reverted too. That is the most rediculous crap I have ever heard! I've had horses my entire life, and I've been on both sides of the line here with bit use. I guarantee that I am 100% right in my statement that horses don't "LOVE" the big peice of pinching metal in their mouth. I bet your horses have algae in their water bucket too. And I bet you board at a facility. And ride English. And wear helmets. And hold the lead rope under the chin. And I bet you're going to reply in defense to these facts at how you most certainly are none if these things blah blah blah. If you use a bit, you don't know how to train your horse. FACT
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was going to nicely tell you that your hackamore in your first picture is too low on your horses face, which is why it doesn't look like it fits, and that a properly-fitting bridle would fix the problem. I was also going to politely tell you that if my coming 4yo draft cross gelding who wears a draft size halter and bridle doesn't even need a draft size hackamore, then your little QH/arab looking horse doesn't need a draft size hackamore. I was going to show you a picture of my boy wearing his leather nosepiece Little S that we use on the trail. And then I read this extremely rude statement made by you and I lost all interest in you or your ideals.

I board because I live on half an acre that is not zoned for livestock. My horse's water bucket is clean and fresh, as my BO dumps and cleans them every day (even when she was nine months pregnant). I ride in an Australian stock saddle and am going to be taking English lessons soon. I wear a helmet because I have a nine-year-old son that I want to be around for as he grows up. Having a green-as-grass horse, it's a case of better safe than sorry. When I lead my boy, most times I toss the rope over his shoulder and don't touch it. My gelding goes equally well in an eggbutt french link snaffle as he does in his Little S. We use the Little S on the trail because we follow and he moves off leg pressure if I do need to direct him. We use the french link in the arena because I want to three-day event and you can't use a hack in that discipline. He doesn't fight the bit and he is perfectly happy because I have light hands and I only touch his mouth if I need to reinforce what I'm asking him with my legs or weight. 

Don't assume. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Save your breath Drafty, looks like the OP has left us:wink:


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> Save your breath Drafty, looks like the OP has left us:wink:


Yes, but any constructive advise may help anyone else looking in with a similar question or problem :wink:


So, thanks for the advice Drafty

.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> Save your breath Drafty, looks like the OP has left us:wink:


Eh. I'm on my phone so I can't tell much. That statement she made just rubbed me the wrong way and I felt I needed to say something.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Newfie (Aug 5, 2012)

Copied and pasted in a comment made to RG by "elizabethan87".... "This is off subject, but wow, they really really really hate you on the horse forum. I started a thread about hackamores, and people flooded it with how much their horses love bits blah blah blah... Anyways I put excerpts of knowledgeable information and links to your website, links to other YouTube videos explaining how the bit effects the horse, and how to train for a bosal... I think I got banned. Oh well. I don't﻿ have time for those morons, I just wanted to help them with their horses. :/." ..... If the moderator banned her, i can't say that I blame them. If she thinks that hackamore is any easier on a horse than a bit,she definitely needs to do a little more research.Just because the metal leverage pieces are not in the mouth,certainly does not make it better than a bit. She is another example of why this forum gets a bad reputation in some circles.Bravo moderator!


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