# Tom Thumb Bits



## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

Honestly I've used them before if transitioning a horse from a snaffle to a curb english to western, however with very very very soft hands. Because of the combo nutcracker + leverage action that the broken mouth plus shanks have, it can be incredibly painful for the horse. Rather than just having either/or the horse has both the curb chain/poll pressure of a curb plus the nutcracker jaw action of the snaffle. If you have quiet hands, it's a non-issue as even a plain snaffle can be rather harsh. However a lot of people are mistaken to think that by nature it's a mild bit, when in reality, both a plain snaffle or a simple curb are less severe in that they work in only one way on the horse.

As you said - any bit can be harsh in the wrong hands, however it's also important to understand what the horse likes and dislikes. My one jumper prefers his mullen pelham to any simple snaffle b/c of how shallow his mouth is. It's a matter of preference of hose and skill of rider imo.


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## Skippy! (Dec 18, 2006)

Initially, I thought it was a nice bit because of the lack of port, not the presence of a snaffle. Even after i realized it was doing the joint nutcracker/leverage effect, I still thought it was a good bit, but i realized it wasn't as "beginner friendly" as i first thought.

And as you said, it all has to do with Horse preference... We had a shallow mouthed Thoroughbred at the barn in California and he could only be ridden in an English Hackamore. Any actual bit in his mouth would result in head tossing. BUT.. his rider knew how and when to use it and he turned out great!

Hackamores always scared me. Especially the old fashioned Mechanical Western ones.. I have often heard to those reffered to as "Jaw Breakers".

Thanks for the reply hun =)


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

TTs work fine for some horses, that have riders who have quiet/soft hands. If your horse works well in a certain bit, then there's no sense in changing it.

However, as a general rule, they should not be used, especially as a "transition" bit or on green horses. Most horses will gape or toss their head if you use the bit to direct rein (pully rein) or pull on it too hard to stop.

If your horse prefers a snaffle mouth, but you need some shank for stopping and knows how to neck rein, then a three-piece bit works well without the nutcracker effect, as does a Billey Allen mouth (like a myler comfort snaffle). You have flexibility in the mouth piece of both bits, but you don't get the negative effects of a single joint curb bit.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I rode my arab in a TT and she responded lovely to it. I rode her with mostly seat and leg as I ride Diesel now. Like you said, any bit can be cruel in the wrong hands. TT you just have to be especially soft with because of that broken mouthpiece/leverage. 

I have never thought to use it on a green horse and wouldn't anyway though. I prefer just a plain snaffle.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I think that almost any bit that gets a bad reputation does so because of bad people. That is great that your horses are doing so well in a TT. Most people who ride horses (I won't say horse people because these people aren't) don't have that much sense and with them, a TT can be incredible cruel. I don't like spade bits because I think they are way to cruel but when they are use properly by knowledgable people, they can make some incredible horses. It is amazing how everything is always judged by looking at the people who use it the worst. Everytime that it is posted that a TT is a very cruel bit is really an incomplete sentence. It has the potential to be cruel in the wrong hands and on the wrong horse. But of course, every bit can be, even bitless too.


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## Skippy! (Dec 18, 2006)

smrobs said:


> Everytime that it is posted that a TT is a very cruel bit is really an incomplete sentence.


What an awesome quote. That is a very, very true statement. I believe that same thing applies to Stud Chains, Whips, and Spurs. As you said about the Spade Bit... you don't like it and would never use it, but there are people out there that use it -correctly- and it makes an increadible horse.

Another thing I was thinking about....

Isn't a Jointed Kimberwick just as "cruel" as a Tom Thumb?

Especially when used on the lower leverage setting? An average Tom Thumb has a very short shank, and though i don't have a Kimberwick infront of me... isn't the Kimberwick's lower leverage setting equal to the length of a tom thumb? Regardless... Kimberwicks DO come in snaffle settings... and if someone was to use either leverage setting wouldn't it react the same way a Tom Thumb does? Nutcracker the mouth and apply leverage under the jaw?

I've never seen anyone complain about Snaffle Mouth Kimberwicks... o.o; And it seriously seems like the same principle to me. In fact, there are quite a few snaffle mouth leverage bits in the English Discipline.

Thanks again for the input guys!


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## hrsjmpr32 (Nov 4, 2008)

I ride two of my three horses with a tom thumb one is just a plain copper mouth TT and the other is a TT with a third piece (french link ) I have never had an issue with mine however I ride on a loose rein and I have soft hands. As stated any bit can be harsh and since mine do so well I won't change them. My young mare who has just gone to a trainer however I sent a full cheek french link for her to be started in.bc she has a very sensitive mouth and I was afraid the nut cracker action would be too much for her.Any way I too am a fan of thr TT.


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## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

Up until a few years ago, I didn't even "know" there were any bits besides grazing bits and tom thumbs... All of our horses either used a grazing bit or a tom thumb... 

My mare, though ride her mostly in a hackamore, still works very well in a tom thumb and I put her back in it every now and then. If I put any other type of bit on her (snaffle, grazing bit, whatever) she runs right through it... she prefers a tom thumb or a hackamore.

Our old gelding (who is retired and belongs to my cousin) ride with either a grazing bit or a tom thumb for most of his life with no problems.

Our oldest mare used to ride with a tom thumb all the time... with no problems. She now rides with a hackamore, though I'm still not sure just why my uncle decided to switch her to it...

But, some horses just will not tolerate it... my three year old gelding HATES single joint bits and can't stand hackamores... so I use a thick straight bar-with-port 'snaffle' on him. It's not really a snaffle, because it's a 'made' bit and has been fixed up, but he loves it and it's the only bit he works with.


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## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

You are talking about the Tom Thumb SHANKED bits... not the Tom Thumb SNAFFLE bits... right?


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

Yes - a TT pelham is as harsh as a western TT bit. A broken mouthpiece kimberwicke is almost as harsh b/c of the reasons stated above.


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## Skippy! (Dec 18, 2006)

Britt said:


> You are talking about the Tom Thumb SHANKED bits... not the Tom Thumb SNAFFLE bits... right?


Technically, they are Shank bits with Snaffle Mouths =)

I'm talking about these:









The Grazing Shank (longer curved shanks)









The Normal Short Shank

CJ82Sky: Ah, gotcha. I was thinking about posting the Pelham as well. I just put my old Kimberwick next to my Tom Thumb to compare shank size, and the Kimberwick has a shorter shank (by maybe 1/2 inch or so). I see the Tom Thumb ragged on so much, but never see anything about snaffle mouth Kimberwicks or snaffle mouth Pelhams, though they do the exact same "harsh" thing.

Thanks for all the input guys =)


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

Skippy! said:


> Technically, they are Shank bits with Snaffle Mouths =)


Technically they are NOT snaffle mouths - as snaffle simply means any bit with DIRECT pressure as opposed to curb which means any bit with indirect pressure/leverage.

A tom thumb has no snaffle rein and therefore regardless of the mouthpiece is NOT a snaffle bit or a snaffle mouth. If there were reins attached at the same point as the mouthpiece - that would be considered a snaffle rein, and this would then be considered a COMBINATION bit - however this is neither a snaffle mouth nor a combination bit as it does not work in multiple ways (direct + indirect pressure) on the horse.

The multiple effects on the horse's mouth come from the BROKEN or SINGLE JOINTED mouthpiece (often mistakenly referred to as a snaffle b/c of it's common use on a direct-rein pressure bit) which causes nutcracker action. Because the broken/single-jointed mouthpiece is on a shanked/curb/leverage bit, the resulting effect on the horse is both nutcracker action on the jaw (again not snaffle action as there is no direct rein causing the pressure) coupled with leverage action on the jaw from the curb chain and slight poll pressure from the leverage of the shanks being drawn back from the mouth.

Hope this helps clarify - sorry to be such a stickler but it kills me when people refer to anything with a jointed mouthpiece as a snaffle as that is not correct. Similarly, even a mullen mouth (mouthpiece with no joints) that has reins that attach at the same level of the mouthpiece and works on direct pressure is considered a snaffle, despite the lack of any joints in the mouthpiece.


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## Skippy! (Dec 18, 2006)

Ah, gotcha. I have always referred to a broken mouthpiece as a "snaffle mouth" because of it being a broken mouth piece.. so your post was really informative for me =)

I love learning <3!


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

Skippy! said:


> Ah, gotcha. I have always referred to a broken mouthpiece as a "snaffle mouth" because of it being a broken mouth piece.. so your post was really informative for me =)
> 
> I love learning <3!


Glad to help  
It's a very common confusion!


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## Skippy! (Dec 18, 2006)

It must make your blood boil to read through Horse Tack Catalogs! 3 out of 5 tack catalogs i have on hand market the Tom Thumb as a "snaffle!" And most of the online stores do too!

LOL! It is amazing how widespread that misconception is!


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

*A*

If I am not mistaken even Myler uses the term snaffle to refer to the broken bit. How the heck are people to really know this is wrong when many large bit making companies use it? Grrr 

Back on the topic of use. I used a TT on a horse years ago. He went fine in it, never had any issues. Oh and I don't think the first bit pictured is a TT.. In my understanding the second one is. The straight shank is one of the identifying marks.


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## Skippy! (Dec 18, 2006)

Appyt said:


> If I am not mistaken even Myler uses the term snaffle to refer to the broken bit. How the heck are people to really know this is wrong when many large bit making companies use it? Grrr
> 
> Back on the topic of use. I used a TT on a horse years ago. He went fine in it, never had any issues. Oh and I don't think the first bit pictured is a TT.. In my understanding the second one is. The straight shank is one of the identifying marks.


I know! I guess because "broken mouthpiece" sounds like there is something wrong with the bit to people who don't know any better, LOL!

And the first pic i posted is indeed a Tom Thumb, it just has the longer grazing shanks on it. When i bought it it was called "Tom Thumb with grazing shanks" but, as we discussed, it could just be the bit companies misinforming us! LOL! The second one is a standard shank Tom Thumb =)


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

Skippy! said:


> I know! I guess because "broken mouthpiece" sounds like there is something wrong with the bit to people who don't know any better, LOL!
> 
> And the first pic i posted is indeed a Tom Thumb, it just has the longer grazing shanks on it. When i bought it it was called "Tom Thumb with grazing shanks" but, as we discussed, it could just be the bit companies misinforming us! LOL! The second one is a standard shank Tom Thumb =)


Both bits pictured are a tom thumb - a western tom thumb is a bit with shanks and a single jointed mouthpiece (i'm pretty sure - will research some more now to be positive).


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## ShowJumpLife (Jan 17, 2009)

according to pc manuals. The nut cracker action on a bit with shanks will over ride any curb leverage making it a rather mild bit.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

ShowJumpLife said:


> according to pc manuals. The nut cracker action on a bit with shanks will over ride any curb leverage making it a rather mild bit.


It is true that there is LESS curb action with a broken mouthpiece than with a mullen mouthpiece on any shanked bit, however, the combination of a nutcracker coupled with any curb action can be very severe, and I'd only consider mild in educated hands.


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

ShowJumpLife said:


> according to pc manuals. The nut cracker action on a bit with shanks will over ride any curb leverage making it a rather mild bit.


It may lessen the leverage action, but there is still the action of the curb chain/strap as well as pressure on the poll. In short, the pressure applied by a (western) TT is different in both type and amount than that of a snaffle.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> However, as a general rule, they should not be used, especially as a "transition" bit or on green horses. Most horses will gape or toss their head if you use the bit to direct rein (pully rein) or pull on it too hard to stop.


I just want to say here... from my experience a horse will gape or toss their head if you direct rein or pull too hard on MOST curb bits, especially those with high ports. 

I really don't see a lot of difference between a curb bit with a jointed mouthpiece and a curb bit with a ported mouthpiece. Both bits are going to hit the roof of the horses mouth when pressure is applied. Ports provide tongue relief but they also add palate pressure. On horses with low palates, ported bits are like a torture device!!

I'm with Skippy!, a bit is definately only as harsh as the hands.

Also i'm nto sure who said it, but yes there are plenty of english bits that combine a jointed mouthpiece with a leverage effect. For example the dutch gag:










I see this bit used a TON in showjumping and even PC circles. It uses nearly the same action as a TT, but has nowhere near the same stigma attatched.

Personally, I don't ride any of my horses in anything more than a snaffle. Never have, with one exception, a horse I had who had been abused and had huge bit issues, on whom I used a ported kimberwick with no slots. (which was necessary, he worried over the snaffle so much he got his tongue over the bit and cut his mouth up) But I also have no need for the action of a curb bit. I ride with direct rein contact and neck reining.


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## Jane Honda (Feb 27, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> I just want to say here... from my experience a horse will gape or toss their head if you direct rein or pull too hard on MOST curb bits, especially those with high ports.
> 
> I really don't see a lot of difference between a curb bit with a jointed mouthpiece and a curb bit with a ported mouthpiece. Both bits are going to hit the roof of the horses mouth when pressure is applied. Ports provide tongue relief but they also add palate pressure. On horses with low palates, ported bits are like a torture device!!
> 
> ...



I refuse to use anything with shanks and a jointed mouth. If I end up using a kimberwicke, or a pelham, its gotta be mullen.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I have never used anything harsher than a mullen mouth low ported kimberwick, in that one situation, so i'm with you Jane Honda! but that is just my personal preference. I believe that if you can't acheive what you want in a snaffle, there is a hole in either yours or the horses training. Which was definately the case with the abused pony I had, poor fella.

I just don't think the amount of stigma atatched to the TT bit is deserved.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

Oh absolutely on the elevator/gags bits being as harsh to harsher than a TT, but also you don't (at least I don't) hear about them being a mild bit either where a lot of people see the TT as mild bit which is untrue.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Okay, I can see that. I guess I don't hear a lot about them as I don't know anyone who uses a curb bit or even rides western! I didn't even know of the existance of a TT curb bit until I came on here. I would get confused everytime someone said they were harsh, cause to me a TT is a very mild snaffle, lol.


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