# The Hackamore Horse



## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Continuing onto the Hackamore horse in this "series" of threads. Haven't got around to making videos yet, with the sudden snow storm we had yesterday, and I've been feeling less than 100%, I figured I would do an in depth post on the true vaquero hackamore horse. IMO, the hackmore is the most fundamental and important stage of the bridle horse process. And a lot can go wrong in the hackamore stage if the bosal is used wrongly. Gwynn Turbull Weaver once made a statement, "We may never be able to lead a camel through the eye of a needle, but the vaquero has sucessfully ridden a horse though one" This makes me smile everytime I read it. 
There are so many different "feels" and manuevers that must be learned by the horse in the hackamore stage. Mant believe that a hackamore is simply used like any other biteless option, to be "pulled" on and to directly rein the horse. This is where the biggest mistake is made in the hackamore stage. Really, hackamore training is teaching a horse to move and postition his self according to where the hackamore is moved on the face. Soft tugs and soft positioning of the bosal on different places on the horse's face teaches the horse to move his body "with" those positions. 
Another thing people don't take into consideration is that the hackamore is a signal tool. The most direct form of it, but still a signal tool. The snaffle is a direct training tool. The hackamore training relys on striving for softness and using the lightest signals possible and still have the horse understand them.
*"If a buckaroo can’t control his own responses, the hackamore will destroy him. One fit of rage, one volatile day will forever taint the hackamore horse. There is a saying that "muscle doesn’t make the man" and similarly it will not make the hackamore horse either." *(Stated by Mr. Weaver also)

This is so true, you CAN NOT muscle a horse around in the hackamore, you will only destroy all of the horse's respect for it. They will learn to run though it, and ultimatley ignore any signal the rider gives. 
IMO, before a hackamore horse even comes close to a transition into the two rein, they need to be very, very advanced in every basic manuever and working aspect, and respond to the rider's lightest seat, leg and hand cues. They need to stop straight and aligned, drive off the hock, collectively flat spin both ways, etc. Hope this gives at least someone some insight! Thanks!!​


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I love it! 

Beautiful drawing as well .


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

smrobs said:


> I love it!
> 
> Beautiful drawing as well .


Thanks! I have this picture hanging on my wall


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

*Yank and Pull?? No Thank You!*

There is a common misconception about the hackamore, and how it should be handled. I see it too often, people constantly pulling and yanking on their horses face for collection, especially at a lope. And this drives me CRAZY! IMO, a true hackamore horse should keep a collected, correct headset the minute the hackamore is placed on his head. A true hackamore horse shouldnt have to be constantly corrected in their headset, this should have been taken care of in the snaffle bit stage. I also too often, see riders "pull" their hackamore horses to a stop. This is another pet peeve of mine. If you are asking for a sliding stop, IMO, one simple tug on the bosal, and then the "forward" movement of the heel knot against the horses chin, along with a correct seat and leg should "ease" a horse into a stop, not just muscle them into it. 
Another huge pet peeve of mine, is when someone inexperienced with the bosal and its movements, gets a hold of one and uses it just like they would a mechanical hackamore. Riding with a constant tight rein and pulling directly back instead of tugging outwards. This is when horses learn to run and push through a bosal. There are so many ways hackamore training can go bad if someone without light hands, experience, and education gets ahold of one. A good, true hackamore horse should be able to be handled with just fingertips. 
Below I've attatched a video of a reined cowhorse competition from a few years ago, that was held in my area. Many people see this as a great run, and it is, for the horse. But little things the rider does, just watching it, makes me almost mad. (maybe its my hormone imbalance, LOL) But anyway, if you look closely, IMHO, the rider is in the horses face WAAAY too much. Those constant yanks through the circles are not necessary, and drive me quite nuts. He never let off the rein through the entire pattern, and this is very wrong for a hackamore horse in my book. Yes, the run looks good, but its the little techincal things the rider does throughout the ride that I really don't like, especially the way the rider hangs on the horse's face. In the pictures that follow, you can see that a nice, collected headset can be achieved without riding a horse's head. (Sorry about the captions, I stole them off BBs website!!  Last picture is of the hubby, but you can still see the horse keeps a nice headset without contact) 
Thanks Everyone for reading!!


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## LisaG (Nov 11, 2012)

What do you like a horse to be able to accomplish in a snaffle before you move to a hackamore? Collection, neck reining, etc...?

I ask because I have a coming 4 year old that I've been riding since last April (in a snaffle). She was resistant at first, but has been coming along nicely the last few months. I'm thinking about moving her into a hackamore in the spring (though honestly I don't mind riding in a snaffle either). I'm thinking if the hackamore can help her become even lighter, that will be a positive thing.

I do have fairly light hands, but have rarely rode in a hackamore, so I appreciate this thread.

Could you also tell us a little more about signalling properly in a hackamore? Other than hanging on a horse's face, what are the big things to avoid?


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

LisaG said:


> What do you like a horse to be able to accomplish in a snaffle before you move to a hackamore? Collection, neck reining, etc...?
> 
> I ask because I have a coming 4 year old that I've been riding since last April (in a snaffle). She was resistant at first, but has been coming along nicely the last few months. I'm thinking about moving her into a hackamore in the spring (though honestly I don't mind riding in a snaffle either). I'm thinking if the hackamore can help her become even lighter, that will be a positive thing.
> 
> ...


Well, I like my horses to know all the basics of ranch work in a snaffle. Roping, doctoring, sorting, calf skids, etc. I want them soft and responsive. I want them to have mastered roll backs, start coming into a spin, have a decent stop, etc. collection is a big one. I want a horse to break at the poll and carry a nice, collected headset the entire it time I'm riding them. They don't need to neck rein yet, they learn that with a hackamore. Another mistake, besides hanging on their face, is keeping pressure for too long of time, I have a five second rule with hackamore horses, I use a lot of soft tugs, but only allow myself to keep constant pressure for five seconds at a time, if that makes sense. Another big thing is adjustment, you have to make sure the bosal fits right. It really just takes a little practice to get a feel for the bosal. To get your horse ready to carry one, free lunging works well. There is also a way to lunge a horse in a bosal to get them moving with it if they have trouble. I can do a post on bosal lunging if you want.


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## LisaG (Nov 11, 2012)

Sure, that would be great.


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

subing


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## Wallee (Mar 7, 2012)

Really looking forward to learning more about this! I will have some questions for ya for sure :lol:


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Thought I'd share this. Started my gelding in the hackamore today. He's been rode about 5 times in a halter/one rein but then I kinda put him away while I worked on some other projects. Thought it was high time he were re-visited and these bridle horse threads helped to re-inspire me to get back with it! 






All I'm working on in these early rides is some basic start-stop and lateral body control. I decided to emphasize the stop more than moving out at this stage, based on a suggestion from Les Vogt. I feel like I could have got him loping if I'd been more active but that he was happier to stop and stand, which is fine with me. He's gonna need to know how to do that anyway. 

Couple other videos that have inspired what I'm doing here:


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## tinaev (Dec 2, 2012)

Interesting thread, I am looking forward to reading more in this series! 

I am a beginner and was given a horse with next to no information about him. Every single bit or bitless option I have tried with him has resulted in head shaking until I tried a mechanical hackamore. The first time I came near him with a bit he started shaking his head and stamping the ground as soon as he saw it. He has been very calm and responsive in the mechanical hackamore. Zero head shaking, no fear, and he stops! This confuses me as everything I read says these are supposed to be horrifying. 

So anyway, I'm trying to learn as much as I can about hackamores. Thank you for the informative thread.


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

Ma'am you might be in the wrong place? Not meaning that rude


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

tinaev said:


> Interesting thread, I am looking forward to reading more in this series!
> 
> I am a beginner and was given a horse with next to no information about him. Every single bit or bitless option I have tried with him has resulted in head shaking until I tried a mechanical hackamore. The first time I came near him with a bit he started shaking his head and stamping the ground as soon as he saw it. He has been very calm and responsive in the mechanical hackamore. Zero head shaking, no fear, and he stops! This confuses me as everything I read says these are supposed to be horrifying.
> 
> So anyway, I'm trying to learn as much as I can about hackamores. Thank you for the informative thread.


It's possible that he needs his teeth done. That alone will cause a horse to resent even having a bit in his mouth. Re: mechanical hackamores, never really used one but I do know that the traditional hackamore will make both you and your horse better. Martin Black has an excellent DVD on how to use it, and I've borrowed heavily from his style in the way that I use mine. This stuff is really, really FUN once you get onto it!


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## tinaev (Dec 2, 2012)

I apologize if my post wasn't supposed to go in this thread, I'm just here to learn.


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

tinaev said:


> Interesting thread, I am looking forward to reading more in this series!
> 
> I am a beginner and was given a horse with next to no information about him. Every single bit or bitless option I have tried with him has resulted in head shaking until I tried a mechanical hackamore. The first time I came near him with a bit he started shaking his head and stamping the ground as soon as he saw it. He has been very calm and responsive in the mechanical hackamore. Zero head shaking, no fear, and he stops! This confuses me as everything I read says these are supposed to be horrifying.
> 
> So anyway, I'm trying to learn as much as I can about hackamores. Thank you for the informative thread.


Glad you found something that works for your horse, but this thread is on the traditional rawhide bosal hackamores, not MHs. Just to clear confusion. I would maybe try a bosal on your horse rather than a MH. You can advance in riding and a handle with a bosal, you really cant advance in a handle with a MH.


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## tinaev (Dec 2, 2012)

Thanks, I'm trying to do as much research as possible about all of the different types. I would love to try him in a rawhide bosal. I'll definitely check out the DVD mentioned above.


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Ian McDonald said:


> Thought I'd share this. Started my gelding in the hackamore today. He's been rode about 5 times in a halter/one rein but then I kinda put him away while I worked on some other projects. Thought it was high time he were re-visited and these bridle horse threads helped to re-inspire me to get back with it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice!! The way your horse hogs around makes me laugh. Lol. Nice looking horse though and nice work! He's doing good for five rides!


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Nice!! The way your horse hogs around makes me laugh. Lol. Nice looking horse though and nice work! He's doing good for five rides!


LOL thanks. Yeah it's even more fun when you're on him!


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## Wallee (Mar 7, 2012)

Once I have ridden a horse in a snaffle can you transition a horse into a bosal? Or?


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

Wallee said:


> Once I have ridden a horse in a snaffle can you transition a horse into a bosal? Or?


Yes you can. Alot of people will start the horse in a snaffle, then hackamore then on to the two rein and finally straight up. Some will not use a snaffle at all and go right into the hackamore off the get go.


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## Wallee (Mar 7, 2012)

Fort fireman said:


> Yes you can. Alot of people will start the horse in a snaffle, then hackamore then on to the two rein and finally straight up. Some will not use a snaffle at all and go right into the hackamore off the get go.


 I have ridden my gelding in a open ring snaffle for about 8 months now, and he is responsive to the snaffle. Would you recommend me trying a bosal? I have always been interested in the bosal and its uses.


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

Wallee said:


> I have ridden my gelding in a open ring snaffle for about 8 months now, and he is responsive to the snaffle. Would you recommend me trying a bosal? I have always been interested in the bosal and its uses.


Give it a shot and see how it goes. Start slow and on the ground. Get the horse used to the hackamore. Just remember the hackamore is not to be used just like a snaffle. The hackamore is used to start building the signal needed to progress into the two rein and ultimately straight up. It isn't there to really direct rein the horse like a snaffle is. What I mean is I kinda go by the suggest, ask , tell method in the snaffle. Suggest, pick up a rein and move my body. If the suggestion doesn't work I ask. Ask, bump lightly and move body and look for a change in the horse. If that doesn't happen the tell( nicely). This just give more direct direction to the horse. With a hackamore there should be no telling. The horse dhould go off the suggestion most of the time will some asking now and then. If you have to tell the horse in a hackamore it will start to deaden the horse to it. It will lose respect for it and ignore it. Then you end up with those stories of" I don't have any brakes with those things" or " make sure you ride in an arena or you'll have a horse bolt on you". Stuff like that. Now I am by Noo means an expert so take all that as just my 2 cents of free advise, and worth what you paid.


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Wallee said:


> Once I have ridden a horse in a snaffle can you transition a horse into a bosal? Or?


I ride all my colts for around 25-45 rides in a snaffle, just to get the basics down. And then I'll transition into a hackamore. I find it's easier to teach a horse basic stuff in a snaffle and then move to the bosal, that way there's no chance of ruining a horses respect for the hackamore early on.


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## Wallee (Mar 7, 2012)

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I ride all my colts for around 25-45 rides in a snaffle, just to get the basics down. And then I'll transition into a hackamore. I find it's easier to teach a horse basic stuff in a snaffle and then move to the bosal, that way there's no chance of ruining a horses respect for the hackamore early on.


 I got the horse I am currently using alot at 9 years old and he is 10 now. Too late to transition to a bosal? and on to the two rein?


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Wallee said:


> I got the horse I am currently using alot at 9 years old and he is 10 now. Too late to transition to a bosal? and on to the two rein?


Nah, it's never too late to do something new with a horse. I just started a 12 year old stud that had never been handled. Age really doesn't mean anything with horses. I wouldn't see any problem with it.


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## Wallee (Mar 7, 2012)

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Nah, it's never too late to do something new with a horse. I just started a 12 year old stud that had never been handled. Age really doesn't mean anything with horses. I wouldn't see any problem with it.


 Sounds good! I have only used a bosal once though and it was on a buddy's horse I was riding. I am guessing it applies pressure to the face to signal? I am wanting all the info I can get on it before I try and transition to it. I have been riding my gelding in the snaffle long enough now and he responds well in it. Is there any specific reason I should transition to the bosal vs staying in the snaffle??


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Wallee said:


> Sounds good! I have only used a bosal once though and it was on a buddy's horse I was riding. I am guessing it applies pressure to the face to signal? I am wanting all the info I can get on it before I try and transition to it. I have been riding my gelding in the snaffle long enough now and he responds well in it. Is there any specific reason I should transition to the bosal vs staying in the snaffle??


You really cant advance in a horses handle, IMO, in a snaffle. A snaffle offers about the most, direct, basic signal you can get. Basically, a snaffle is used to directly pull a horse in the direction you want him to go. A bosal isn't for direct reining at all, like Fort Fireman said. Basically. With a hackamore, you position the bosal to get the horse to move his body and position it to keep the bosal comfortable. If that makes sense. I'll get on my laptop and do a long in depth post about it this evening.


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## Wallee (Mar 7, 2012)

Wanstrom Horses said:


> You really cant advance in a horses handle, IMO, in a snaffle. A snaffle offers about the most, direct, basic signal you can get. Basically, a snaffle is used to directly pull a horse in the direction you want him to go. A bosal isn't for direct reining at all, like Fort Fireman said. Basically. With a hackamore, you position the bosal to get the horse to move his body and position it to keep the bosal comfortable. If that makes sense. I'll get on my laptop and do a long in depth post about it this evening.


Sounds great! Although I am and have been neck reining my horse even though I am using a snaffle


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## CanyonCowboy (Apr 30, 2010)

subbing


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## Jim Andy (Jan 21, 2013)

I have a question I am green and purchased a been there done that horse.From the time I got him he neck reins should I be using a bosal on him rather than the snaffle?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

If you're not versed in how to properly use a bosal (or you don't have someone handy to teach you how to use it properly), then I really suggest that you stick with the snaffle for now.

Congrats on the new horse!


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## Jim Andy (Jan 21, 2013)

That's what I was thinking but good to know I will meet up with someone that know what their doing and learn from them.Thanks very much


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Jim Andy said:


> That's what I was thinking but good to know I will meet up with someone that know what their doing and learn from them.Thanks very much


Dude! Don't be held back! YOU CAN DO THIS. Personally, I have gained an immeasurably valuable amount of knowledge from this particular DVD. Martin explains a lot about how to use the hackamore. You've gotta get hungry for good horsemanship though. It just requires practice and maybe a mindset that doing this well is its own reward, but it's totally doable!


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

Just a curiosity thing wanstrom. Once you've moved from the snaffle into the hackamore, do you ever drop back down. You know if the horse just doesn't seem to be " getting it". I know farther along the process like once in the two rein or straight up there's no worry about dropping back if need be. Just kinda curious at these early stages.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DressageLover (Feb 8, 2013)

Thank you for posting this. I've always been curious about the proper way to use a hackamore and look forward to learning about it.


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Hmm I'm sure it wouldn't be a bug deal to drop a horse back down. I've never had a issue, buy I usually get a pretty good feel for the horse in the snaffle stage and I've started so many that I can usually tell when they are ready to transition. But you could probably take them a step back if they aren't getting it. Some horses it takes 15 rides for them to be ready for a hackamore. Some it might take 45..


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

*Heavy Handed Rant!!*

:evil: So I'm gonna have to rant about this today. And since this is a hackamore thread, I figured this is the most appropriate spot for it. I have a mare for sale, just because I have way too many, that is in the hackamore stage. I posted an add on Craigslist clearly stating this was a Hackamore horse, and needed a light hand and someone who was familiar with bosals and how they work. I've had fifteen people out here to look at this horse. I got one, showed them kind of how to rein her around, explained the hackamore and different bits to them, they get on my poor mare, yank her around, are very heavy handed and then say the horse is too green for them because she doesn't understand why she is getting her face ripped off... So every time, after an hour standing out in the snow, I send them home without a purchase, and Brandy sighs as i unsaddle her everytime, like "what is wrong with these people" I've put years of hardworking into them and they're my partners. Many wanted the mare, but I simply told them no, and wasn't very nice about it.. am I being too picky??


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

You're certainly not. I would do the same thing. He!!, im known for pulling people off their own horse in lesson, when they were rough and didn't care....;-)


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

No, you are not being too picky. I have found something similar, people yanking on the horses head and thinking that they have light hands and a soft horse. The basic measure of what lightness is is completely different they have their own level of “lightness” as the measure of what a soft horse is and cant even conceive of a horse being as soft as a good hackamore horse; and so when they encounter a really soft horse they think there is something wrong with the horse.


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

Absolutely not too picky! I'd have had a big ole hissy fit myself. LONG time ago when I had to sell my mare after getting married I had to put up with this. She'd end up trotting over to me and shoving her face in my chest  Broke my heart.

BTW = selling the mare vs marriage? I lost BIG time on that deal. (1st marriage that is, don't want the hubby thinking I'm talking about him)


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

If one more yahoo comes out and can't ride the horse, shes not getting sold. I'm not gonna have any more of these heavy handed apes riding my horses. She can just tote the nieces and nephews around til baby's old enough to ride. Lol!


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## Jim Andy (Jan 21, 2013)

How about Bailey is she on the market? I might just drive 2000 miles for her she looks like a doll.


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

Hay Wanstrom Horses, and others. I have a question about the double on the ground. 


To begin with, I guess I feel a little limited in that all the bridle horse stuff I have ever learned directly has come from one source. I don’t mean to say that the guy who taught me was somehow deficient, he is a brilliant horseman, and fairer, and the best saddler I have ever seen (he makes a living these days selling about 6 saddles a year), but as I engage with people on this forum and follow the Classic Horsemanship Forum (CHF), I'm realising to what extent that what I learned is one system among many at training a horse into the bridle. So I'm beginning to develop a lot of questions about the things I learned. Not really doubting what I learned, it has stood me in pretty good stead for the last 18 or so years, but, then again, I do have an insatiable lust to learn, I wouldn't be doing a Ph.D. otherwise, and horses are a passion, all be it a passion I have had to largely put on hold for the last few years, but a passion all the same.


When I work with horses I do it from scratch in the hackamore, unless I run up against a horse I feel just won't respect the hackamore, I don’t snaffle bit train them then move into the hackamore (a process I'm beginning to re-consider given what I have read here and in the CHF). However, since most of the horses I deal with are not mine and will go to other people I get them to a sort of standardised but soft direct reining stage (probably a bit beyond that really) then two rein them to a snaffle bit since that is what the people who take them will ride them in (a direct rein in a snaffle). 


Now other than what I learned from my friend I have also read the Connell books and the double he describes in one of them, about getting beside a horse on the ground with a good length of rope and a solid halter, the getting someone to get it running, then taking its head away from it as its feet are coming up off the ground and if necessary puling it clean off its feet, is what I also learned from my friend as how to double a horse on the ground. EXCEPT, he always taught me there were better and not as tough ways to do it which have always form the basis of what I have always done with horses and I have kept that kind of double as a kind of thing I only do if the chance arises in the course of handling the horse. So for example if I am handling the horse and it turns to take off for whatever reason and has its front feet up off the ground I'll hold the lead rope solid and let the horse topple over.


A couple of things with this I guess. I have a bit of respect for what some of the old ways of doing things were, within reason (the good old Ozzy bush style is a total write off in my opinion), and guess if the likes of Connell was talking about it it should probably not be dismissed out of hand. So I'm not so quick to make some value judgement about pulling a horse about like that. But I am a bit of a softy and only do something like it if the chance arises, I cant bring myself to set it up and do it. But then again, despite my friend teaching me that doubling a horse like that is a pretty tough way of doing it, he also taught me that the double forms the beginning of making a hackamore horse and it has to be done right, and in such a was that it sets up a horse so that it will bring its back leg up under itself and never think it can run through a hackamore. 


So after that protracted monologue I suppose what I am asking you, and others with the experience, is, what are your opinions, and methods, of doubling a horse on the ground? And probably also your ideas of the over all importance of the double in the making of a hackamore, and by extension, bridle horse?


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I may be totally off base here, but I would reserve the doubling on the ground(that hard) and the likes(running W) for horses that have learned to run through the hackamore, or any head gear actually, and are nasty about it. I have used those methods but it was after trying to do it the "nice" way. It is amazing how taking a horses feet away gets in their heads. I have found with these types of horses, is that they had got way with it for so long that you need to do something different to interrupt the thought process, or actually the lack-of.

But I introduce the hackamore much like I introduce the snaffle or halter. I give them the time to figure it out. But I do double, usually not on the ground, if I feel he needs a reminder. Just the other day I got on a horse that had some time off and he was being a little pig headed I gave him an opportunity to do it right but I had to remind him. I did some doubling on the fence then when he soften and I had his upmost attention I gave him a break and an opprtunity to work quietly.


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## cobra (Jan 30, 2013)

subbing....


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Yeah I agree with Cowchick. I don't double them on the ground unless they won't pay attention to the hackamore and I've tried everything else.


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## LisaG (Nov 11, 2012)

Okay, I have a bosal question (and I apologize in advance if this has been covered):

Do you prefer a light or heavy bosal, particularly for horses new to hackamores? I've seen both, and my gut tells me to go with the light bosal (my mare is quite sensitive, too), but I'd like everyone's thoughts on that.


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

LisaG said:


> Okay, I have a bosal question (and I apologize in advance if this has been covered):
> 
> Do you prefer a light or heavy bosal, particularly for horses new to hackamores? I've seen both, and my gut tells me to go with the light bosal (my mare is quite sensitive, too), but I'd like everyone's thoughts on that.


A heavier bosal. All mine are heavy. I just find it helps getting the horse ready for big bits. But it's really all just preference for the horse and rider.


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

Personally I start them off in a ¾ inch bosal (on their back) and try to get them down over time to a 3/8 inch bosal, start off thicker and a little stiffer and as I refine the horse’s sensitivity to signals get thinner and softer bosals.


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## LisaG (Nov 11, 2012)

So, is it the same principle as a bit (i.e. thicker = less pressure)?


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

LisaG said:


> So, is it the same principle as a bit (i.e. thicker = less pressure)?


Basically. But with a hackamore you shouldn't be relying on the pain factor of the bosal. Yes, if the bosal is thinner, and you yank your horse around with it, it will be more painful than like a 3/4" bosal. For starter horses, I ride them in a heavy 3/4" bosal for about 90 rides, then I work them into a 5/8" and leave them in that until I go into a two rein. Then I ride them with a 3/8" bosal, and put a bridle bit over it and let them just pack the bit for a few days. Then I'll ride them in a two rein in a 3/8" bosal.


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Basically. But with a hackamore you shouldn't be relying on the pain factor of the bosal. Yes, if the bosal is thinner, and you yank your horse around with it, it will be more painful than like a 3/4" bosal. For starter horses, I ride them in a heavy 3/4" bosal for about 90 rides, then I work them into a 5/8" and leave them in that until I go into a two rein. Then I ride them with a 3/8" bosal, and put a bridle bit over it and let them just pack the bit for a few days. Then I'll ride them in a two rein in a 3/8" bosal.


 
When you let the horse carry the bit around before you two rein them do you leave the reins on or take them off the bridle?


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

AnrewPL said:


> When you let the horse carry the bit around before you two rein them do you leave the reins on or take them off the bridle?


Take them off. I don't touch the horses mouth for at least ten rides.


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## Toymanator (Jul 31, 2009)

LisaG said:


> Okay, I have a bosal question (and I apologize in advance if this has been covered):
> 
> Do you prefer a light or heavy bosal, particularly for horses new to hackamores? I've seen both, and my gut tells me to go with the light bosal (my mare is quite sensitive, too), but I'd like everyone's thoughts on that.


The pressure should not come from the stiffness of the hackamore but rather thickness. Each hackamore is different in stiffness, a hackamore that is built from the same hide and same maker will have a different feel to it. It takes time to recognize those differences. I wish I had more hackamores... I have a 3/4" that I rarely use. I spend probably 75% of the time on my horses in a 5/8th's hackamore. I then spend the remaining 25% in the 1/2" to refine what the horse has learned in the 5/8ths. Then when I go to the two-rein I have a 3/8th's bosal that I use. When the horse is "straight up" in the bridle I have a special 3/8th's called an underbridle that I always keep on as a sign that the horse is "straight up" and as a means to lead the horse when he is straight up. 

But stiffness comes from the core of the hackamore. A cable core hackamore will be more stiff than a rawhide core. I never put anything other than a rawhide core hackamore on my horse, they have the best feel to them and are most comfortable for the horse.


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Yes I agree. I wouldn't ever put a cable cored hackamore on my horse. I don't own one. I think the horse should respond to cues and your seat not The matter of the stiffness of your bosal.


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## Fluffy Pony (May 2, 2010)

Sorry for this random question. But what is the differences between a 12 plait and 16 plait romels? Is it just how much smoother one is vs the other and it just comes down to personal choice?

I'm looking into getting a nice quality set of romels with buttons, but its hard for me to compare without having it to touch then right infront of me so I have to resort to the internet to buy sadly. I currently am using a nice older pair of rolled harness ones, but I would like a braided set for a more traditional cue feel with the buttons.

I see the buckaroo buisness site has a nice selection, but do you know of anywhere that sells smaller more refine braided reins?

What ones do you use mostly?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Fluffy Pony said:


> Sorry for this random question. But what is the differences between a 12 plait and 16 plait romels? Is it just how much smoother one is vs the other and it just comes down to personal choice?
> 
> I'm looking into getting a nice quality set of romels with buttons, but its hard for me to compare without having it to touch then right infront of me so I have to resort to the internet to buy sadly. I currently am using a nice older pair of rolled harness ones, but I would like a braided set for a more traditional cue feel with the buttons.
> 
> ...


The difference between 12 and 16 is just the number of strings used to braid them. The feel is really going to come from the quality of the rawhide, strings and the core. Buttons add weight for balance.

Yes, I agree buying rawhide items, well anything actually, over the internet is bummer because you can not feel them. I have never bought anything from Buckaroo Business so I can not offer an opinion. The sewing machine belting or the rolled ones are not too bad if done right. We have some built by Jay Palm that are quite nice. 
Some folks like the Santa Ynez style reins for roping because they lay nice if you have a handful of coils. I have never tried them so I do not know again. Personally I want to feel the difference between my reins and my rope, if I have so much rope in my hand that I need a smaller diameter rein then I need to re-think my rope length or ride my horse a little harder/better so I don't need 100'(not saying there were times when I wished I had it though)..LOL!

Anyhow we do have some Bill Black reins that are nice if you can get some but a good portion of our rawhide stuff came from "bunkhouse braiders". I have not tried the reins off of Martin Black's website, but I have had a 5/8" bosal that was decent. Maybe the same place is making the reins and bosals? (Not a fan of the mcartys though) 

Just my opinion....take it for what it is worth...:wink:


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## Fluffy Pony (May 2, 2010)

Ah thank you! At least this gets me somewhere with the names too! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Buckaroo businesses romals are pretty nice. They aren't anything special, but I have quite a few sets just for working. I don't break out my pair of Jose Ortiz romals unless I'm going to a ranch rodeo. But like Cowchick, I usually pick mine in from bunkhouse braiders that live around here. But if you are ordering off the Internet, Buckaroo Business, I don't know what your looking to spend, but the 30 plait Goatskin romals from the Avilas Pro Shop are wonderful. I have a pair of them and love them. Any of Avilas reins are pretty nice. Steve Guitron has some nice romals too. Really, if you want to buy true quality stuff off the Internet new, don't spend less that $150.. You get what you pay for.


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## Toymanator (Jul 31, 2009)

Fluffy Pony said:


> Sorry for this random question. But what is the differences between a 12 plait and 16 plait romels? Is it just how much smoother one is vs the other and it just comes down to personal choice?
> 
> I'm looking into getting a nice quality set of romels with buttons, but its hard for me to compare without having it to touch then right infront of me so I have to resort to the internet to buy sadly. I currently am using a nice older pair of rolled harness ones, but I would like a braided set for a more traditional cue feel with the buttons.
> 
> ...


I might get in trouble for letting some of the secrets out of the bag. Most of the old reins I've seen were 8 plait. Bill Dorrance prefered them because they fit your hands better. They also have much better feel. To braid 12 and 16 they must have a core, most use some cheap rope and split the rawhide down paper thin, so your feel is from the rope. The other thing about paper thin rawhide strings is they will curl at the edges or begin to fray and rub on the horse with use. Most of my reins are 8 plait square reins, but i'm a traditionalist, and quite picky about my gear years of use. 

I have found that these reins work for what I do, but a lot of the NRCHA guys have different reins and they are great horsemen. If you are just wanting to try it out, the above mentioned businesses will probably work for most. Like Wanstrom Horses said, buy quality gear and it will last.


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## zzlanova (Nov 14, 2011)

My horse has a hard mouth. He was an old schoolie, so Im sure its from kids constantly pulling and yanking on his face with harsh bits.

Anyways, I was wondering, does any one in here have experience with this?
Have you tried a hackamore on a horse with a hard mouth with success?
I am thinking about trying one on my gelding to see if he will respond differently if I take a bit out of his mouth.

Of course, I am also working with bending/leg yields, to try and get him to soften up a bit, but I like the idea of trying a hackamore may add some relief for him as well..


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## Freemare (Jun 2, 2012)

I have a morgan that I am working with now that has a super dead mouth. His old owner would let him lean on the bit so he got it through his head its ok. Now its a pain to fix. Anyway. Clinton Anderson has some great stuff to work with for a horse who a dead mouth. You might want to check out. One thing you can do is a lot of ground driving. Also one lesson I am doing with the bad morgan is this. Stand by his side. Place your hand on his withers. Dont let him move. Then use your other hand (left) to ask him to bring his head to his belly. You are grabbing the rein in your left hand and putting enough pressure to fell it. The sec he gives drop it. He may move around, just stay with him. Wait for him to stop. Then keep going. Do this to both sides and ask for more bend each day.

Now on to the hackamores. I use to ride my own horse in one, he seemed to like them better. However with showing and other work, you have to have a bit. So I did a lot of work on him and got most of his bits in sweet iron. He enjoys all of his work and bits now. Some times I cant get them off. Hackamores can be vary dangerous as well to the horse. I have seen someone destroy there horses face with them. Broken nose, ripped up face.


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

zzlanova said:


> My horse has a hard mouth. He was an old schoolie, so Im sure its from kids constantly pulling and yanking on his face with harsh bits.
> 
> Anyways, I was wondering, does any one in here have experience with this?
> Have you tried a hackamore on a horse with a hard mouth with success?
> ...


 


Could do. Probably a fair bit of a horse with a hard mouth is not so much an actual hard mouth, in some physical sense, thought thats no doubt there, but its probably as much if not more a behavioural thing. 
Probably the hardest mouth horse I have dealt with in the last few years was my horse I had in Jordan. He was pretty dead in the mouth, and no amount of hauling on the bit hard would make a dent in him. He had been used to haul a carriage in through the siq down into Petra and had had his mouth destroyed by someone pulling on his mouth while he was pulling the carriage. When I got him I just set up the same as I would when I hackamore train horses. So basically as his feet were coming into place for him to make the movement I wanted easily, I would pick up the rein and feel out his mouth. When his feet got into place I'd give him whatever pull on the rein he needed to do what I asked, and after I had given him the pull, I let off the pressure entirely. 
I didn’t use a hackamore on him, just a loose ring snaffle and it got him softened up pretty good. I guess you could probably soften your horse up in a snaffle bit if you wanted. But I guess you could probably retrain him from scratch in a hackamore. Unless you are really wanting to refine your horse a lot its probably less the equipment you use on the horse but the way you use it that will make the difference.


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