# Food/Treat Aggression/Pushiness



## Equilibrium (Apr 5, 2019)

Do you think food/treat aggression/pushiness is something to work on?

I've heard some people say "not really" - saying that there is no real,legit,vital reason to mess with the horse while they are eating and you don't have to give them any treats.

I've also heard some people (including some on here) that you should correct "actual food" (meals) aggression/pushiness but not with treats - you know, they simply *NEVER* the horse treats....

Can treat aggression/pushiness be "fixed?" If so, why try to fix food aggression/pushiness, but not treat aggression/pushiness? I've heard it is because horses need food, but don't really need treats. Technically speaking, under what circumstance is it absolutely vital that they mess with the horse while eating?

I am not asking for advice, but rather I don't understand because, to me, it sounds somewhat contradictory when people say stuff like that. For those who don't (or knows someone who doesn't) treat due strictly to treat aggression/pushiness (not due to stuff like diet considerations, the horse gets distracted, allergies, or you simply not wanting to), why is that? Please clarify for me.

I do understand that "my horse - my rules" sort of thing, so if that is all that one can say, that's fine.

Thanks.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Treats: I treat copiously, but I never fork over the treat while the horse is doing something I find objectionable (rifling through my pockets, nudging me, cutting me off, etc.) I will give the treat once the horse has assumed an inconspicuous posture, or I sneak up on the horse and - voilà - a treat appears, not even giving the horse a chance to do something pushy. 

Food: While I'm dispensing food, the horse will give me room until I have placed the food. Then I step aside and the horse can do whatever. Sometimes I take my horse away from his hay in the middle of eating, but then it's only for a trip to the grain bucket, or to eat some fresh grass outside. It shows the horse that I'm in control of the food, but also doesn't give him a reason to be resentful, because it's always an upgrade to what he was just eating.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Treats are only for well behaved horses. Ask my horse Indy who went 5 years without treats while watching others enjoy theirs.


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## Rachael1986 (Jul 27, 2014)

Treats are a way of rewarding good behavior when being worked. Treats given at any other time just spoil the horse and can create aggression and pushy ness. I personally would never allow a horse to be aggressive towards me no matter what they were eating! Aggression at feed time can become dangerous very quickly! A simple method to handle this would be to take a whip with you and when the horse acts aggressive, chase them away from the food. This is what horses in the wild do and what herd horses do. Allowing the horse to eat shows you as the herd leader and you are keeping them alive allowing them to eat under your protection. If any horse shows aggression at the herd leader in a domestic herd or in a wild herd the leader nips that in the bud quickly!


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

I never let my horse's get agressive or pushy about being fed grain or treats. I can give hay and go back 5 minutes later and take them away to do whatever with them.

They get pushy or agressive then they get no grain or treats or whatever I'm giving. For most part my horse's get treats after a ride, if they were good. 

I use treats for my gelding when doing up his cinch. I reward the behavior I want. Only gets two treats for this an only when I decide he gets them. If he gets to searching pockets or nudging at my hands...then I won't give any treats. Usually not an issue he knows better for most part.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

We live next door to my parents and my dad loves to go and feed the horses carrots over the fence. When he goes out into the pasture for whatever reason, my sweet little mare likes to go demand carrots and bite him on the shoulder if he doesn't have one. So seriously....70 year old men should not be feeding treats to horses and then going out in the pasture with them, but you can't tell a 70 year old man anything.

I don't treat the horses randomly over the fence for no reason. I halter them and tie them before I give them yummy things, and I treat them COPIOUSLY when they're in the trailer. I love to stop at gas stations and buy them gum drops and open the trailer windows to treat them. Then they love the trailer and the trips even more. No risk of getting bit on the shoulder that way.

Food aggression is part of horse behavior. A "food aggressive" horse is not a bad horse, it's just a regular horse. You have to avoid getting hurt, so you have to use common sense, but I don't think it's something you should try to train out of a horse. Why put yourself or the horse through the stress of trying to train something like that out of them? Just stay safe.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

newtrailriders said:


> We live next door to my parents and my dad loves to go and feed the horses carrots over the fence. When he goes out into the pasture for whatever reason, my sweet little mare likes to go demand carrots and bite him on the shoulder if he doesn't have one. So seriously....70 year old men should not be feeding treats to horses and then going out in the pasture with them, but you can't tell a 70 year old man anything.
> 
> I don't treat the horses randomly over the fence for no reason. I halter them and tie them before I give them yummy things, and I treat them COPIOUSLY when they're in the trailer. I love to stop at gas stations and buy them gum drops and open the trailer windows to treat them. Then they love the trailer and the trips even more. No risk of getting bit on the shoulder that way.
> 
> Food aggression is part of horse behavior. A "food aggressive" horse is not a bad horse, it's just a regular horse. You have to avoid getting hurt, so you have to use common sense, but I don't think it's something you should try to train out of a horse. Why put yourself or the horse through the stress of trying to train something like that out of them? Just stay safe.


Sorry but I strongly dissagree with this, you have the making of a dangerous horse.

I will not tolerate a horse biting me because I don't have a treat. I will not reward agressive behavior for food or treats from my horse's. Were not talking about a 50 lb dog, we are talking about a 1000 lb or bigger horse.

My horse's wait patiently for there grain to be dumped into pan. They stand back and wait for me to walk away. 


Your mare biting because there are no treats will escalate if not corrected. One day she'll turn her butt and double barrel someone with hind feet. One wrong placed kick can be deadly. 

Safety is teaching your horse to have good manners on the ground, and in all aspects of life. If you don't you are failing them.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Equilibrium said:


> Do you think food/treat aggression/pushiness is something to work on?


Absolutely. Just like every other instance of 'bad manners', with a horse sized beast, it can become dangerous, not just annoying & 'rude'. Therefore I insist on teaching/enforcing 'good manners' be it with food or otherwise, 'treats' or 'meals'. And part of that is that if I go into a paddock with horses, they aren't allowed to play 'horsey politics' with eachother while I'm there either.



> Can treat aggression/pushiness be "fixed?" If so, why try to fix food aggression/pushiness, but not treat aggression/pushiness? I've heard it is because horses need food, but don't really need treats. Technically speaking, under what circumstance is it absolutely vital that they mess with the horse while eating?


So... I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at. Again, regardless whether it's meals/hay, or treats, be that given for training or 'just because', or Bad behaviour when there's no food involved, I think teaching & reinforcing 'manners' around people is vital. 

Yeah, it's not 'vital' that you 'mess with' horses while they're eating... unless you include dishing out the feed in the first place, of which I'm absolutely going to 'mess with' them if they're rude about that, and they won't be getting their meal while they're behaving in a manner that's unacceptable. I don't allow 'rudeness' at any time & I'm not about to allow it in one situation but not another - that would be inconsistent & unclear to the horse. **On that note, if a horse is going to be handled/fed by others who may not be consistent with what they reinforce(like 70yo fathers...), then it will make it more difficult to teach the horse to be 'polite' with other people.

I hear it so often, that people blame food treats for 'pushy' or 'nippy' or 'aggressive' behaviour. This only shows that those people just don't understand training principles. In essence, boiled down, horses learn to do what works - what they get reinforced for, and they quit doing what doesn't work for them. Therefore IF you reward 'bad' behaviours, that's what you'll get more of. If you NEVER reward 'bad' and you do reward 'good manners' then you will get more of the good and the bad will stop happening.

In short, it's not food(treats or otherwise) that causes Bad behaviour, it is what behaviours are being reinforced.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

newtrailriders said:


> I don't think it's something you should try to train out of a horse. Why put yourself or the horse through the stress of trying to train something like that out of them? Just stay safe.


I didn't notice this bit of your post until Rambo pointed it out. I STRONGLY disagree with this too. I would NEVER EVER advise letting a horse to be aggressive, be that around food or otherwise. Let alone effectively reinforcing/rewarding it by feeding the horse when they're like that. Why put yourself or the horse through this training?? Because it's very much a safety thing! Not that training them to be well mannered needs to be at all stressful for either the horse or the person anyway, and I tend to use food to reinforce Good Manners too. 

IME of wild/naturally living horses, food aggression is not at all a normal, natural behaviour either. This only tends to happen in human environments.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

It all boils down to manners! 

Would you allow a child to sit at a table and start to grab food and not allow others to have any? 

As said, it is with horses, a matter of safety. 

I have had horses come to me that as soon as I walk into heir stable with feed their ears go back, rude faces made and no respect for my space. They want their feed and they want it *NOW.* They get it all right, I will whack them with the bucket and if the feed goes on the floor, tough, they wanted it so they got it. 
Only takes once and they realise that the terms are mine. 

I am not against feeding treats when they are earned. 

Giving treats just because you have something in your pocket is not so good.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Foxhunter said:


> Would you allow a child to sit at a table and start to grab food and not allow others to have any?


...And would you blame the FOOD for that child's rudeness?? Would you blame the lollies offered, for a kid in a shop chucking an 'I wanna I wanna' tanty?? 

When people tend to think that's an obvious answer, I don't get why they think it's the food that is to blame for horses *learning* to do similar.



> Giving treats just because you have something in your pocket is not so good.


Oh I dunno - pets are made to be spoilt IMO! I will sometimes go out with a handful of carrots, to share out to them 'just because'.  But again, if that horse/dog/child started groping my pockets, going 'I wanna!' or threatened me or such, no way in hell they'd get a treat, regardless whether it was 'earned' or not.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Rachael1986 said:


> Treats are a way of rewarding good behavior when being worked. Treats given at any other time just spoil the horse and can create aggression and pushy ness. I personally would never allow a horse to be aggressive towards me no matter what they were eating! Aggression at feed time can become dangerous very quickly! A simple method to handle this would be to take a whip with you and when the horse acts aggressive, chase them away from the food. This is what horses in the wild do and what herd horses do. Allowing the horse to eat shows you as the herd leader and you are keeping them alive allowing them to eat under your protection. If any horse shows aggression at the herd leader in a domestic herd or in a wild herd the leader nips that in the bud quickly!


I disagree strongly with much of this paragraph. I think it's a really limited view of animal behaviour, and shows large and lamentable gaps in understanding horses and animal training. And it's unfortunately a widespread point of view in many horse dabblers. @loosie gets at some of the whys and wherefores in her post. If any of you think like this quote, you might like to read up on animal behaviour, or go work with someone who is genuinely good with animals. Dominance theory is archaic and not accepted by the modern animal behaviour research community. It's been debunked many decades since, and harks back to badly performed experiments on zoo animals kept in unnatural conditions - yet it persists as an old wives' tale, and a very popular one at that. Horses are social animals. Like humans, like dogs. Think about someone discussing children in the way this quote is discussing horses. Still agree? I make the comparison because getting on with and teaching horses and children are very similar indeed. I've done both for much of my life, gotten consistently excellent results both with human students and with horses, who have very nice manners when I've worked with them for a while, and I don't listen to half the half-baked tripe that's popularly written about training. I have high expectations of my human and equine charges, but education is a dialogue, not an army camp exercise. When I work with a horse or with a human, I work _beside_ them as a leader (= good example), I don't put myself on a pedestal _above_ them, or think of myself as the "superior" being. I literally despise this sort of arrogant world view. And I don't often write posts like this, but mg:. A dictator does not make a good leader. Not with humans and not with horses.

I've been training my own horses from scratch since age 11, unaided by anybody. 





















I've trained horses for harness and saddle. I've retrained horses who've bitten over fences at any human or animal who went past their enclosures, without the use of whips or posturing, and they're good as gold now. Here's two... both of them late-cut stallions who lived solitary much of their lives before I adopted and socialised them. Sunsmart:





Julian:












Here's three horses who used to be solitary stallions, two of whom used to want to kill each other and were called "dangerous", when I introduced one of those, Julian (with the blaze), to the other two:






Socialising animals properly works.

Tact, humour and genuine understanding of animals and their behaviour go so much further than throwing your weight around. If anybody would like to read an excellent book on this subject, I recommend Dr Marthe Kiley-Worthington's _Horse Watch: What It Is To Be Equine_. She's an actual biologist with extensive animal behaviour training and experience.

All my animals are a pleasure for me to work with - and our work involves conversation going _both_ ways.


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## HombresArablegacy (Oct 12, 2013)

I have a food aggressive mare and you can bet that I have taught her to tow the line at feeding time. She pins her ears, does the stink eye, and can be pushy. For MY safety, she got her clock cleaned more than once with a whip or a bucket at feeding time when she was younger. Now, she stands away from me in her stall, and paws impatiently, but does NOT approach her feed bucket until I allow her to. While she's eating, if I walk by her stall, she'll throw her head up and sling some feed at me, but her head never crosses the line of her stall door. 

She's also possessive of her stall, so when I have to blanket her, or remove her blanket, I tie her in her stall while doing so. She knows the routine. It goes without saying that I don't give her treats.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I am lucky that I've never dealt with a hrose that is food aggressive toward me. my lease horse is food aggressive toward other horses, but that's normal. 



But, I think that being able to move your horse off of his food without getting attacked is a valuable skill. Not that you need to practice a lot, just know that you can, and have your horse know that you can. No if's , and's or but's.


As for feeding treats . .. if by giving a treat you cause your horse's mind to go into an internal frenzie of "where is my next treat? Gotta get it, gotta find it, come on, come on!", . . then you aren't doing either of you any favors by giving treats. But, if your horse accepts an offered treat , enjoys, and does nothing more than give you baby goo-goo, aren't I cute eyes, hoping for another, then treat away!


I will say that there is a big difference between a hrose TAKING a treat, you GIVING a hrose a treat. When the horse reaches toward you, he's taking a treat. When you bring the treat Toward him, you are giving a treat. There's a difference


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Oh & missed most of Rachael's response till Sue's reply. Yeah, agree to disagree with the dominance theory side of it, but if a horse was aggressive - or just plain rude - to me around his hay/bucket feed, whatever, I may well take a big stick & drive the horse away from the food, and 'own' that space until he decides to be nice. It's not about dominance, but about ensuring that Rude behaviour doesn't work for them.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

This is correct, @loosie, but you understand the distinction.  When working with animals or children, we should:

a) Be good examples of fair leaders, and model the very principles we are trying to teach them, not just expect them to toe our rules while we behave badly ourselves;

b) See respect as a two-way street, and not think we can do _anything_ we like with them - respect their boundaries, as well as teach them to respect ours, and ask, "Is that okay with you?" on a regular basis, and teach them to ask us, "Is that okay with you?" on a regular basis as well; 

c) Work together for the _mutual_ good - find ways of working that are enjoyable for _both_ sides;

d) Have the primary emphasis on looking for good behaviour to reward, rather than looking for misbehaviour or stupidity to punish - spend the vast majority of the time creating a positive and constructive atmosphere;

e) Have clear and immediate consequences for boundary infringements - and most of these can be low key if you get in early. If you're needing a whip to feed a horse, then either you or someone before you didn't set the ground rules down clearly in the first place, and the behaviour has already escalated. Unless you are dealing with the odd psychopathic human or animal.

f) If you do have to deal with escalated behaviour, do it creatively rather than harshly, so you don't damage your working relationship unnecessarily. I've got an example of that here, for dealing with a biting horse: https://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/horse-turns-back-me-when-he-788919/#post1970522651

On very rare occasions, I might tip half a bucket of water over a "new" horse because it is giving me a really rude display, or interfering with another horse - or I might kick a backside and do some impressive chasing because an animal aimed a kick at me. But, these are rare situations, not standard responses. If they were standard responses, the horses would see me as a person to fear, rather than as a person they like and want to cooperate with because good things happen when they do, and because I make sure the behaviour of herd members towards each other is good - as the best lead mares in horse herds will also do.

And by good things, I actually don't mean treats either. I really liked what @mmshiro said about treats:



mmshiro said:


> Treats: I treat copiously, but I never fork over the treat while the horse is doing something I find objectionable (rifling through my pockets, nudging me, cutting me off, etc.) I will give the treat once the horse has assumed an inconspicuous posture, or I sneak up on the horse and - voilà - a treat appears, not even giving the horse a chance to do something pushy.
> 
> Food: While I'm dispensing food, the horse will give me room until I have placed the food. Then I step aside and the horse can do whatever. Sometimes I take my horse away from his hay in the middle of eating, but then it's only for a trip to the grain bucket, or to eat some fresh grass outside. It shows the horse that I'm in control of the food, but also doesn't give him a reason to be resentful, because it's always an upgrade to what he was just eating.


I tend to give my animals treats when I'm at leisure with them, rather than working with them - just because. When I'm working with them, _that_ becomes the treat, if I'm doing it well. My riding horse will get collected for work, or called up for work (that works too, and it's really handy - our horses come when called), and the first thing is a nice long scrub of all his itchy spots with a brush. "Which spots are itchiest today?" Other animals see his antics and nose-wiggling and usually hang around hoping they too will get a bit of a scratch, and often they do. Then we tack up, and are off. "Oh goodie, where are we going today?" My horses have always liked to work. In part it's that they were all working breeds, in part that I never ask anything from them that's beyond their current capabilities, in part it's that all of us love fresh air and exercise and a good outing. These days, when I do the trails around our own farm, I am often followed by several horses and/or donkeys who just want to tag along for fun.

An old example of what happens when we call our horses. The camera person is on the incoming route, and the horses are running to the caller. The bay and grey are now deceased - this was years ago. But all our horses will come when called. This is because we always call them at feed time, and then they also come if you happen to need them for another purpose, and call them at non-feed time.






My horses like to learn, and like me to tell them how clever they are. They enjoy doing a good job, and trying to figure out something new. This is an attitude that is fostered with good training and with a mutually respectful relationship - not with lording it over someone or something.

My treats are usually carrots, and in stone fruit season, overripe peaches, nectarines and plums off our trees, which the horses and donkeys love. I don't feed treats all the time - maybe once a day maximum, and sometimes not for a week. I tend to give a carrot when I'm taking off rugs - they stand so still when they're busy chewing! :rofl: And they all know they get one carrot each, and that's it, and there's no point trying to see if they can try to get another horse's treat off me, because that's not going to work, and they know not to make faces at each other because of it.

I've seen trick trainers use treats to great effect, and see nothing wrong with that. I just don't need to do it for my situation. I prefer horses to think of the job we are doing, instead of having half their brain engaged in thinking about what might be in my pockets, for the sort of work I do with them. I can completely understand how treats can be really useful for actual training when you are training a horse to do really unusual things, though!

My horses and donkeys come up to me, not because of treats, but because they enjoy hanging out. I know all their itchy spots, and I dispense much warmth and affection to them. The horses no longer have an actual lead mare, and now the boys get all soppy trying to put their heads under my arm etc, and having a nice bit of attention from me - more than they did before - their lead mare was very affectionate with them and kept good order in the herd. Now there's just me to do that. These horses _want_ to please me. And that's what makes working with them delightful.


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## UnhappyHacker (Dec 30, 2017)

jetequitheory posted a video on this- she recently started training with just positive reinforcement, but I think you could use the video any way, just to teach your horse not to be pushy





 <--- think this is it but there was one where the horse was stalled, just cant find it (might be in part 2)


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I err on the side of "I wuv my wittle pony wony," so I am probably one of those people who allows a horse too much leeway. But, my horses are absolutely NOT allowed to show any signs of aggression or pushiness while being fed. At least to me -- if I toss hay out in their pasture (from across the fence) and it takes them a few seconds of pushing and shoving to sort of who gets what, that's up to them. Now, if I'm out there with them, no, they are going to be polite. As others pointed out, it is simply not safe to let an animal that size think that it's OK to be pushy or aggressive around food, when there is a tiny, frail, easily-squished hooman around. A horse that starts out a little pushy can easily work its way up to actually being aggressive, and then you have to fix a bigger issue. 

Whether my horses are getting feed or hay, if I'm in the space with them I make them back up before I give them anything. Moonshine, my daughter's mare, doesn't even have to be asked any more. You just go out there with food and she backs up. This keeps you safe and, as others have pointed out, reminds the horse that you are the boss.

A horse that gets pushy about treats doesn't get treats. Like others, I generally only give treats as a reward for a specific behavior, although I do sometimes give them "just because" they have been generally good about something. Pony went six months without any treats because they made him pushy. I've just started giving them to him again, in small amounts. If he gets pushy again, it will be another six months. They don't NEED treats, so if they don't behave right there's no reason to give them treats.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I disagree entirely.

Food aggression is not tolerated. Period. That's disrespectful, and yes it should be stopped. Eating or not, that's not respectful. You want your horse to respect you, no matter WHAT they are doing. 
My mare knows to stand still and wait until I put the food in her bucket/bring her the food, she gets excited, yes, but she respects my space. She is not pushy. She knows not to get ahead of me or trample me.
Did she do that when I first got her? No. It took a lot of groundwork and working on space/respect. Patience.

From the start, I let her know I'm allowed to groom her or pet her while she's eating too. She knows to respect me, whether she's eating or not! I can pet her face or neck etc. and she doesn't care, as she eats.s

I usually just let her eat, but sometimes to save time I groom her a bit while she eats, she has no issue with it.

As for treats, I don't give them daily. She earns them, sometimes I do give them to her for no reason (obviously if she behaves!). But for the most part, after a good lesson/work session she gets them. Not after every single one, but she knows she gets enough!


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

mmshiro said:


> Treats: I treat copiously, but I never fork over the treat while the horse is doing something I find objectionable (rifling through my pockets, nudging me, cutting me off, etc.) I will give the treat once the horse has assumed an inconspicuous posture, or I sneak up on the horse and - voilà - a treat appears, not even giving the horse a chance to do something pushy.
> 
> Food: While I'm dispensing food, the horse will give me room until I have placed the food. Then I step aside and the horse can do whatever. Sometimes I take my horse away from his hay in the middle of eating, but then it's only for a trip to the grain bucket, or to eat some fresh grass outside. It shows the horse that I'm in control of the food, but also doesn't give him a reason to be resentful, because it's always an upgrade to what he was just eating.


This right here.

We have a big dog treat bin filled with horse cookies at the tack room. I keep a bag of peppermint horse treats in my trailer. Good ponies get lots of snacks for good behavior. If you're a pushy horse, you get nothing but driven off until you show good manners. I've never been bitten by a horse wanting snacks, only out of jealousy while lavishing attention on one and not the other. To say she got into a heap of trouble with me, and immediately, is an understatement. She's never done it again.

I don't treat horses by walking out into the pasture with 3 or more loose horses. They'll inevitably start to squabble and get pushy with the hooman holding the snacks. Just best to not put myself or them in that situation for my sake and theirs. I do have them occasionally snuffle my jacket pockets, as if hoping I did indeed bring snacks, but I've yet to feel threatened by that. Snacks are reserved for 1 on 1 interaction and rewards, though I am not above occasionally bribing a horse (Depending on the situation and circumstances).

Feed time at the trough: I used to dump the food and get the hell out of dodge. They were getting more and more pushy and aggressive with me, with anyone that fed, with each other as time went by. I learned from this forum that's no bueno. Now I keep either a lunge whip, or an old fishing pole with a long leather saddle string held onto the end eye with a blood knot at every gate. I don't often have to use it, but they are very aware that I can salty if provoked and have an enforcer, the long arm of my law, handy.

So. Two of my ten Commandments for the horses:

*Thy shall not bully the bringer of feed; neither shall thou crasheth the gates.*

They're all very well behaved these days, and I don't feel endangered just trying to get the feed in the troughs.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

loosie said:


> Oh I dunno - pets are made to be spoilt IMO! I will sometimes go out with a handful of carrots, to share out to them 'just because'.  But again, if that horse/dog/child started groping my pockets, going 'I wanna!' or threatened me or such, no way in hell they'd get a treat, regardless whether it was 'earned' or not.


 I have found randomly offering treats is a good way to keep em guessing. I don't take them into the pasture, but they know there's a good chance if they come to me willingly, joyfully, I'm going to use that catch rope in my hand to lead them to the tie post, lavish treats on them, groom them, and turn them back out. There's also a chance I'll lavish treats on them, then throw a saddle on them, only to see how it fits, take it off, groom them and turn them out. I may be about to let one or two select individuals mow the lawn. I may also be about to load one or two in the trailer with the intentions to ride.

Keeping them guessing, with the opportunity to get delicious snacks and delightful scratchings of The Spots keeps them running to me, not away from me. And there's no feeling quite like the feeling of your horse/s seeing you from a distance, just putzing around outside, and here they come running and calling to you.... and it's not feed time nor are you holding any feed buckets. It's just because.

It's one of the best feelings in the world, IMO. 

So if snacking horses gets that done, I will do it and not be the least bit apologetic about it.


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## Equilibrium (Apr 5, 2019)

I guess what I'm asking, in short, is why some people say, "My horse (or horse x) never gets treats because they get pushy [after I give them one]." as opposed to fixing it?


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Equilibrium said:


> I guess what I'm asking, in short, is why some people say, "My horse (or horse x) never gets treats because they get pushy [after I give them one]." as opposed to fixing it?



Because every horse is different; because every owner is different.

It's just like raising kids. Everyone's parenting style is different. 

There are some very good reasons to NOT snack certain horses - special dies, insulin issues, stomach issues, etc - and there are some very good reasons TO snack certain horses.

I have snackers. I've let Sarge have half of my my ham sandwich and a slice of cheddar, shared my hot box chicken strips with Trigger. Superman will RUN FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF OUR PLACE when he sees a bag of peppermint treats. Gina doesn't care one way or the other but she never refuses apples, carrots, or cookies... she'd rather have you scrub the itchy spots on her belly. Oops would mug you for treats, and we know it, and she knows we know and we use it to our advantage. Outback will not take any treats from anyone's hands yet.

So. That's me. None of my horses are on special diets, and I learned over time how to manage the pushy snacky grabbies so I don't get searched like my horses are TSA officers at DFW, and they still get fun treats.

Other people feel differently about their horses, and their wishes are to be respected, even when you disagree with them.


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## rmissildine (Feb 1, 2019)

Equilibrium said:


> I guess what I'm asking, in short, is why some people say, "My horse (or horse x) never gets treats because they get pushy [after I give them one]." as opposed to fixing it?



Okay, I've read most of the posts in this thread. Some I agree with, some I don't.
I'm beginning to believe that we have the most well behaved horses in the world!!!
First off, the only time we stall our horses is when we feed, or for the farrier or vet. Every day the two big ones get stalled to feed, and the two little ones are fed outside, under the run in. Why, so the big ones don't push the little ones off their feed.
When it comes to me and my wife, we are able to bring the big ones in by ourselves, without help from the other. Allie comes in first as she is the alpha, then John. No issues. they get fed first, then Fred and Angle. When Fred and Angle get done, they come to the back gate and get a small treat, then we take John out without a treat, which he gets after we get Allie out, she gets a small treat after she is clear of the barn. John gets his after we leave the barn.
Is this right way? A lot of folks will say no, but, they do what we ask, when we ask, so they get a treat. Once in a while, I'll take a few treats in my pocket out into the pasture and call them to me, if they come, they get a small treat, if not, they don't. We don't give treats when we halter, or saddle them, just rubs and word of praise.
To answer your question, no pushy horse should get a treat. They have to be taught that you are the boss, and do as you ask, not the other way around...


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

ACinATX said:


> Pony went six months without any treats because they made him pushy. I've just started giving them to him again, in small amounts. If he gets pushy again, it will be another six months.


I suggest, on that note, that you just quit giving him treats, or be stricter about it. Because 6 _minutes _- heck, 6 _seconds_ - is too long with regard to him learning better from it. They need INSTANT associations. And again, the FOOD didn't 'make him pushy', but whatever behaviour you were (inadvertently) reinforcing with it did. 

You can't teach him better manners with treats by just not ever giving them, any more than you can teach a child manners & to be reasonable about the amount of lollies they eat if you just put the lolly jar out of reach of the child.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

@AtokaGhosthorse, I just love the quote you currently have in your signature. Is it from anyone in particular?

By the way, I do treat with three loose horses and five loose donkeys, in the paddock together, and they all behave. If they start pulling faces, a look or an "Oy!" is all I need, and they become polite again. I also always bucket feed the whole lot loose, and they know not to squabble.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Equilibrium said:


> I guess what I'm asking, in short, is why some people say, "My horse (or horse x) never gets treats because they get pushy [after I give them one]." as opposed to fixing it?


Because not everyone understands training/learning principles. 

I think there are definitely valid safety reasons for not doing this though, if say, the horse is handled by others without strict rules... say a horse at a riding school with children... or 70yo men who 'know better'...  Then making a 'no hand feeding' rule is appropriate.

Unfortunately, as I used to agist in group paddocks, and some owners would NOT respect 'please don't feed my animals' or even 'if you must, insist on manners'. My horses have learned from this, that other people = worth a try 'begging' or exploring pockets. But with me & the (older, assertive) kids, they don't try that on - they know it will never work to earn them anything but possibly punishment.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Other people feel differently about their horses, and their wishes are to be respected, even when you disagree with them.


I should add, absolutely agree with this. If it's not harming the horse, each to his own. Regardless of whether it's based on misunderstandings or otherwise.

My horses ARE mostly on 'special diets' - but that's no reason not to give treats IMO, just to keep them small & healthy. A pocket of rosehips for eg, given one at a time, will last an entire training session & provide nothing health-wise to worry about.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

SueC said:


> @AtokaGhosthorse, I just love the quote you currently have in your signature. Is it from anyone in particular?


TY! It's a quote from Charles Burkowski, author of Factotum - Which I have not read yet, but have on my Kindle reading list. I think the quote in my sig is something he said, but I also love this one as well, and it is from Factotum. I was torn between using what is there now and the one below:

"If you're going to try, go all the way. There is no other feeling like that. You will be alone with the gods, and the nights will flame with fire. You will ride life straight to perfect laughter. It's the only good fight there is.”


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Fabulous stuff, @AtokaGhosthorse!  Triple-distilled inspiration!


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

When I lessoned and leased, I was the queen of the treats -- I always had treats in my pocket and treated everyone, especially my crusty ol' lease horse.

Now that I have horses of my own, I don't constantly treat. I kind of came to the conclusion that I want my horses to look forward to being with ME, not getting a treat. My ranch horses taught me a thing or two about horses with a work ethic -- when they are haltered, tied, being groomed and tacked, ridden, or waiting to be ridden, they are doing a job. They enjoy their jobs and take it seriously. They don't really need constant distractions and food bribes or rewards.

We did offer treats at the beginning, but they really did prove to be distracting, and all four of ours get tempted to be pushy, snuffly and unfocused if they think they are getting treats.

Our horses are always happy to get their supplements and rice bran, and consider that a big nightly treat. Once a week on Sundays we take apples, carrots, and/or horse treats to them and just hang out and hand feed and pet them. They appreciate that without expecting treats every time we work with them.


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

Equilibrium said:


> I guess what I'm asking, in short, is why some people say, "My horse (or horse x) never gets treats because they get pushy [after I give them one]." as opposed to fixing it?


Why constantly set your horse up to be corrected?

Having used treats both liberally and sparingly, I think that constantly treating is sort of like constantly buying a kid gifts to win their favor. I used to give treats too win over the lesson horses I'd ride, because I wanted them to enjoy being around me and working with me. 

My own horses have a lot of affection for me. They start nickering as soon as they see me, even though it's not time for hay or supps, and they rarely get a treat. If I grab a halter, both of my horses are heads up at their stall gate, nickering to be the one who is picked. 

I don't really see the benefit of setting them up to expect and demand food, just to correct them and put them in their place. What's the point of that?

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to giving treats. Every horse and owner is a unique pair with a unique relationship.


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## Countrylovingmamma (Feb 27, 2019)

For me, I will not accept any kind of Aggression or pushiness of any kind from my Horses, Kid, Dogs etc.. With that being said I think its more about gaining respect and teaching respectable manners. 

With my horses, I do not really give out treats, this does not mean I don't give any at all but I am not consistent with giving them. My plan for this is my horses never expect to get a treat and if I decide I want to give a treat I never give from my hand I always stick the treat in a grain bucket with half a handful of hay mixed in and give it to them that way while holding the bucket and I never carry treats in my pockets ( for me this prevents them from associating my hands or body with treats).. My horses are not allowed to be pushy they have to wait for me to offer them the bucket. WIth hay feeding- My horses will greet me at the pasture gate but they know that when I am ready to come in with the hay they need to move off and wait for me to come in the pasture and go to the hay feeding area they can follow on either side of me but they must give me my personal space if they move to close to my personal space all I have to do is just look at the side of there face or point to the side of there face and they move back out of my space. when I get to the feeding area they stand and wait for me to put down a pile of hay when I walk away from that pile they can go to it. If they try to get pushy I claim the hay bucket and my space and I get them to give to my personal bubble and I will do that as much as I need to do before they are allowed to eat. But I say yes if you have a pushy/aggressive horse with food or treats I think you should work on correcting the behavior as a horse that is pushy or aggressive is a potentially dangerous horse.


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## Equilibrium (Apr 5, 2019)

I'm not really taking about the dishing out of food/treats, as I understand why a horse should have manners for that.

So, food aggression/pushiness should be corrected (when the food is already down and the horse is eating, but you want to go over there an mess with the horse, instead of leaving the horse to eat in peace), but choose to simply not give the horse treats (instead of trying to fix the aggression/pushiness).

Technically, both (food/treat aggression/pushiness) could be avoided by not messing with the horse while they are eating or giving them treats. Technically, if what you guys say is true, both (food/treat aggression/pushiness) could be corrected/fixed.

I guess I still don't understand why people are so adamant about correcting food aggression/pushiness, but not treat aggression - as in simply not dealing with it by simply not feeding treats. _*Again, this is solely on one reason - based on aggression/pushiness, not stuff like diet considerations, allergies, or you simply not wanting to.*._

I've heard some people say they don't carry treats anywhere near their horse or feed treats to their horse *_specifically due to treat aggression/pushiness_* (not stuff like diet or allergies). 

Isn't it kind of a safety thing to teach a horse how to be respectful around treat time, even if you aren't going to feed treats a lot/regularly?

As in @newtrailriders post:


newtrailriders said:


> We live next door to my parents and my dad loves to go and feed the horses carrots over the fence. When he goes out into the pasture for whatever reason, my sweet little mare likes to go demand carrots and bite him on the shoulder if he doesn't have one. So seriously....70 year old men should not be feeding treats to horses and then going out in the pasture with them, but you can't tell a 70 year old man anything.


I do not, nor do I condone, feeding random horses treats without their owner's permission, but in the case above, wouldn't it still have been safer to teach the horse to accept treats respectfully? Again, even if you aren't feeding treats a lot, often, or regularly....

I am not talking about giving a treat when the horse is being aggressive/pushy (you know, like, rewarding the horse for it); I am talking about after their first treat. Some horse (and I speak from experience) get a little aggressive/pushy after their first treat looking for a second - even if they were giving the first initial treat as an out-of-the-blue surprise - and they were an absolute, perfect, little, angel. To avoid this, some people choose to simply not give their horse treats (again, for absolutely no other reason besides their aggressive/pushy behavior). I just don't understand why some people choose to "fix" treat aggression/pushiness by simply not feeding their horse treats.

I know that sounds like a rant, but I am genuinely wondering why, as stated in my first post.

Sorry. I don't really know how else to explain it. I know I just said the same thing forty times....


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## Equilibrium (Apr 5, 2019)

Cedar & Salty said:


> Why constantly set your horse up to be corrected?


No offence, but I honestly don't know what that means....
What do you mean by "corrected"? Do you mean something like discipline or a correction/modification of behavior?

If it is the latter, then, technically, there are a lot of thing we do to set a horse up to be "corrected."

For example: 
What about a (herd, buddy, barn, whatever) "sour" horse? Until you teach the horse that it is okay to be away, every time you try to take them away, technically, you are "constantly set[ting] your horse up to be corrected." Right?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

My wife rarely rides. She likes to take carrots out to the three horses living in the corral. They line up and she feeds them pieces. Sometimes out of her fingers, which makes me uncomfortable but they are all very careful. I can't tell you how she disciplines them because she never has. "_If they start pulling faces, a look or an "Oy!" is all I need, and they become polite again._" - @SueC Maybe that is how my wife does it. But...I can't recall the horses ever getting pushy with her at carrot time.

When I step into the corral to feed them, all fussing must stop. Once in a while, I have to set the food aside and make that clear. I feed them 3 times a day. When it rains, the mud is slicker than snot on a doorknob. For MY safety, there will be no fussing at ANYONE while I am in the corral!

That said, a horse is welcome to walk beside me as I go to their feeding place. Most of the time, the horse goes ahead and waits for me at whichever bucket they want to claim. I don't make them stand away. If they are walking toward the bucket while I dump the feed, I dump & turn away. There is a huge difference between a soft horse strolling over to get some food, and an aggressive horse MARCHING over to TAKE the food. A strolling horse gets food and sometimes wither rubs and maybe a face rub if they ask for one. A marching horse gets the hammer of Thor.

My wife sometimes brushes them and curries them while they eat. They sometimes leave their food and follow her when she stops, so I guess they like it. Personally...I think the big thing is that we don't focus on being the boss. We won't be bossed by the horse, but we also don't micromanage their behavior. We aren't competing with them. Even in riding, we often are mostly hanging out with them while on their backs - horse hiking, I call it. Hiking together. Horses also understand the difference between someone who strolls and someone who marches......and they stroll with strollers.


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

Equilibrium said:


> No offence, but I honestly don't know what that means....
> What do you mean by "corrected"? Do you mean something like discipline or a correction/modification of behavior?
> 
> If it is the latter, then, technically, there are a lot of thing we do to set a horse up to be "corrected."
> ...


I guess what I mean is that my horses are very bonded to me, trust me, respect me and are very willing to work, any time or any place. They walk up to me to put their heads in their halters (whether stalled or turned out). They will patiently stand tied for hours. They stand quietly to be tacked up. They lead quietly, and will walk forward, back and circle at liberty. They are decent to mount from the ground or a mounting block. They load easily in a trailer, and unload safely. They happily work in the arena or out, with their buddies or without. All of this without treats. Heck, Cedar didn't know what an apple, carrot or horse treat was for 6 months after we bought him.

If I fill my pockets up with treats that they can smell, and dole them out at random intervals, they are distracted, hoping they will get a treat, and are not focused on their jobs. So why fill up my pockets with treats? Why try to fix something that isn't broken?

It's like sitting four little kids around a table with a heaping platter of cookies in the center, then serving them a big old plate of broccoli. Even if they normally like broccoli, they are going to want to eat cookies more. Why put the cookies on the table in the first place, when you know it's going to start a battle? 

As I've aged, I've learned, with horses and people, that power doesn't always need to be publicly and frequently wielded. It's far better to avoid a power struggle, and not engage in constant battles for respect over things that don't matter.


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## Equilibrium (Apr 5, 2019)

Cedar & Salty said:


> If I fill my pockets up with treats that they can smell, and dole them out at random intervals, they are distracted, hoping they will get a treat, and are not focused on their jobs. So why fill up my pockets with treats? Why try to fix something that isn't broken?
> 
> It's like sitting four little kids around a table with a heaping platter of cookies in the center, then serving them a big old plate of broccoli. Even if they normally like broccoli, they are going to want to eat cookies more. Why put the cookies on the table in the first place, when you know it's going to start a battle?


I never said to carry around a fanny pack full of treats and tempt the horse....

I'm asking why some people choose to deal with/"fix" treat aggression/pushiness by simply never giving treats (instead of teaching the horse respect around treat time), but are very adamant about respect when feeding food? 

Why work on food aggression/pushiness but not treat aggression/pushiness?

If you state that you avoid food aggression/pushiness by simply not messing with the horse while they are eating, that's considered "reinforcing very dangerous behavior and teaching the horse disrespect." 
However, if you state that you avoid treat aggression/pushiness by simply not giving the horse treats, people just shrug it off saying, "your horse - your rules or horses don't *NEED* treats." Even though you, technically, don't *NEED* to mess with the horse while they are eating their dinner grain, either...?

I wonder why because it sounds a little contradicting and hypocritical.


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## Equilibrium (Apr 5, 2019)

Equilibrium said:


> If you state that you avoid food aggression/pushiness by simply not messing with the horse while they are eating, that's considered "reinforcing very dangerous behavior and teaching the horse disrespect."
> However, if you state that you avoid treat aggression/pushiness by simply not giving the horse treats, people just shrug it off saying, "your horse - your rules or horses don't *NEED* treats." Even though you, technically, could simply not just mess with your horse while they are eating their dinner grain - for as they say, "your horse - your rules." People say, "your horse - your rules" for treat aggression/pushiness, but not food aggression/pushiness. Or, even though you, technically, don't *NEED* to mess with the horse while they are eating their dinner grain, either...?


Edited.


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

I can halter any of my horses in the middle of their breakfast or dinner hay, easily pull them off it, and they will go to work. I try not to do it, because they get great joy from eating their hay. There are times I have to do it -- like this morning, I had to halter Salty and load him in a trailer to go to a clinic. He didn't like it (he had no idea he was getting into the trailer with a hay bag), but he certainly did it, because I am the boss and the boss controls food.

When I give my horses their nightly bowl of supplements I make them take two steps back, because the boss controls the food and other horses' feet.

I certainly CAN and DO feed my horses treats if I want to, but the first thing a professional trainer told my daughter to do when she was struggling with respect issues with her horse was to stop hand feeding treats. The second was to leave him tacked and tied for 30 minutes after every ride.

Hay and supplements are necessary, and manners surrounding them need to be consistently enforced. Treats are not necessary, are not always helpful, and often (not always) serve only the human's ego and add confusion for the horse like the cookie/broccoli scenario.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

bsms said:


> ...I think the big thing is that we don't focus on being the boss. We won't be bossed by the horse, but we also don't micromanage their behavior. We aren't competing with them. Even in riding, we often are mostly hanging out with them while on their backs - horse hiking, I call it. Hiking together. Horses also understand the difference between someone who strolls and someone who marches......and they stroll with strollers.


Yes yes yes! When you focus on "being the boss" that's, first of all, taking a competition rather than a cooperation point of view, when social animals are very cooperative with animals and people they like and respect. I've seen many instances where submissive horses shut down their opinions completely around people focused on being the boss, and spirited, clever horses engage in the fight with such people. This is not how to get the best out of a horse. To get the best out of a horse, or person, you need _dialogue_, not monologue. I'm not inclined to talk to bullies either - it's an unpleasant business. I only truly _engage_ with people I like and respect. And horses, donkeys etc are much the same. Our people at the Donkey Society are always talking about this. They say, "A donkey would never put up with _half_ the training rubbish and attitudes dished out by a lot of horse people!" 

People are commonly saying, "Training a donkey is so different to training a horse!" For me it wasn't in the slightest - the approach I use with horses is perfectly acceptable to donkeys. And dogs. And humans. :rofl: Once, in a conversation with a high school principal, about a particular class of rumbunctious middle schoolers I was taking, and taming (I _really_ don't like bad manners and inconsiderate behaviour), I remarked, in the middle of a pleasant conversation, "It's just like training horses, really!" and she was soooo shocked at me! :shock: :rofl: "mg: Sue, children aren't animals!" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I don't _ever_ focus on being _the boss_ - or being _in control_ - and I don't micromanage everything. (And yet I'm the leader, but it's not a big thing to me and I don't think I'm above my charges.) I focus on creating a constructive environment, being warm, and not putting up with any rubbish. But you can enforce boundaries in very subtle ways, if you get in early and don't let misbehaviour escalate. There is so much body language in a horse, most of the time, before it bites or whatever. You can be proactive, and not reactive. A lot of people are really reactive, and go ape when the horse has already bolted, so to speak. There's so much prevention if you keep your eyes open and really look at body language, and understand how certain situations tend to go.

And like @tinyliny pointed out in her "do do - not don't don't" thread recently, it's much more constructive to ask for positive actions, rather than jump up and down about negative actions. "Walk on!" rather than "Don't stop!"... "Be nice!" rather than "Don't be horrible!"... "Do XYZ!" rather than "Stop doing ABC!" If you have the "Stop! Don't you dare!" mentality, it becomes a power struggle. If you ask for positive actions, and encourage and reinforce those, while discouraging negative actions, that's so much more constructive, and not overtly about power. Maybe good leadership is also like a butterfly. It alights on you while you're doing other things - you don't get it by focusing on it and chasing it. Because in true leadership, you don't care about your status, you care about the good of the group, about the positive development of relationships, about mutual respect, over and above "being respected". You can impose being feared - but you have to _earn_ respect, by being warm, caring, fair, competent, and not taking nonsense, nor tolerating it between group members. I'd say to classes, "I'm not above anyone in this room. We're all human beings. And if you wouldn't say it to me, or do it to me, then don't do it to anyone else in this room either, because I'm going to take exactly the same view of that, and the consequences will be the same. It's not OK to be disrespectful and rude to other people, full stop." But then I'd get on with the positive role modelling and positive activities, and the discouragement of negative stuff is not the main focus - it gets dealt with as you go along. You basically make it so the least possible amount of focus and energy goes on the negative, and you nurture and encourage the positive.

As the best pastoral care policy I ever read put it, "_Immediate_ and consistent consequences for negative behaviours, but 95%+ of time and energy going to the positive. Showing what you want primarily by modelling it, by being that way. Genuinely respecting your students, and caring for them."


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Cedar & Salty said:


> I kind of came to the conclusion that I want my horses to look forward to being with ME, not getting a treat. My ranch horses taught me a thing or two about horses with a work ethic -- when they are haltered, tied, being groomed and tacked, ridden, or waiting to be ridden, they are doing a job. They enjoy their jobs and take it seriously. They don't really need constant distractions and food bribes or rewards.


Yep, constant treats, expected all the time, can cause you to be seen as a bit of a 'vending machine', and if your horses don't enjoy being with you regardless of food treats, then I'd say there is something missing in your relationship.

So saying, while I *generally* only give treats when teaching/reinforcing newer or extra Good behaviours, I do find that it helps get off to a good start with new horses, to create an association between myself and Good Stuff, esp if they may be too nervous/shut down/just don't like being scratched or groomed or such. I've had horses to whom it was a punishment, being touched in any way, that I've taught to accept & then enjoy grooming by associating it with treats. _Then_ I was able to use scratchies or an ear rub or such as reward.

*Of course, food treats aren't the only reward you can give, and a horse may well prefer - or be distracted by, rude about - a 'vending machine' of scratchies rather than food. While food is a common, practical, strong positive reinforcement for horses generally, as is almost always the case when discussing positive reinforcement, people tend to get hung up on food as THE thing. 

As for 'ranch horses' or otherwise horses who aren't ever given rewards, be that food treats or otherwise, that are trained solely with negative reinforcement/punishment to 'just do it'... They may well learn to like their job too, but it's just training & often an 'obedient' horse trained like that is rather 'shut down' to any choices he may have. I don't think of this as 'work ethic' - that is a human concept, needing human capacity for conscience & concept of feeling responsibility for doing stuff despite not wanting to. And even with our social conditioning for stuff we 'should' do, how much genuine 'work ethic' would you have, if you were never rewarded for your efforts?? But if I had to lable a horsey attitude 'work ethic' it would be that the horse enjoyed their 'work' and strove to do it as well as possible, to think for themselves, not just dumbly follow 'orders'. 



> We did offer treats at the beginning, but they really did prove to be distracting, and all four of ours get tempted to be pushy, snuffly and unfocused if they think they are getting treats.


Yep, that is why I think they're best used as part of conscious training, and that part of that is, horses need to be trained also, what treats/whatever rewards are about - eg. they are to reward _focus_, as well as _good_ manners. 



> I don't really see the benefit of setting them up to expect and demand food, just to correct them and put them in their place. What's the point of that?


It is not about expecting & certainly not about demanding food - again, that's not the fault of the 'tool' - food, but of WHAT the person is rewarding with it. 

You could say 'whats the point of training ANYTHING just to 'correct' them, and if you're not using any positive reinforcement, _then you must be using all negative reinforcement/punishment_. Which means all you are doing is _teaching Right by 'correcting' Wrong_. It is about the very common mindset of focussing on 'correcting' - punishing Wrong Stuff. Whereas one great advantage I see with +R training is, it gets people _focussing on rewarding Right Stuff_ - and horses focussing on doing Right Stuff in order to be more likely to earn Good Stuff. It's about setting the horse up for success, not failure. Eg. you don't just offer a horse a treat & punch it in the nose when it goes to take it grabbily. You teach the horse to keep it's nose to itself & be 'polite' and reward it for that. You don't just wait for the horse to run over you, mug you & then correct it, but you teach it to stop at a 'respectful' distance from you and reward that. You may be _ready_ to punish/correct at any given time, but your focus is _teaching/reinforcing Right._


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

I'll give you a clip now, of my horse and me interacting after a ride. A lot of people focused on being the boss would go, "mg: he's moving around, he's pinning his ears, he's biting the air, how horribly disrespectful, you must correct him." I disagree. Here's what I care about: That I'm safe, and that the job gets done. And I don't mind him expressing his opinions, or his feelings, about the matter. (He really hates water, and he's really ticklish.) But I do the job that needs doing. When he moves, I simply maintain my relative position to him, so moving doesn't confer any advantage to him, or stop me doing whatever I'm doing. He moves because he's tense about the washing part and in the same way that I have a physical and emotional reaction when I jump into a cold lake or ocean. I'm not going to insist he doesn't have that reaction, or that he has to stand stock still and pretend he likes it. But he's not stopping me from doing my job. I empathise, because I too hate cold water - so I'm humorous about it, and try to distract him with being playful. I understand that being bathed is really unpleasant to him, but it's necessary for me to do it. I'm OK with hearing his displeasure about it. And he's not actually biting me, or trying to (and it wasn't always like this - when I adopted him, he was a serious biter). And, the number of times he's actually bitten me, in the 22 years since I've known him, is zero. When I first adopted him post harness racing, it wasn't for his lack of trying! And this is how I fixed it - with creativity, not with aggression: https://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/horse-turns-back-me-when-he-788919/#post1970522651


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

loosie said:


> You could say 'whats the point of training ANYTHING just to 'correct' them, and if you're not using any positive reinforcement, _then you must be using all negative reinforcement/punishment_. Which means all you are doing is _teaching Right by 'correcting' Wrong_. It is about the very common mindset of focussing on 'correcting' - punishing Wrong Stuff. Whereas one great advantage I see with +R training is, it gets people _focussing on rewarding Right Stuff_ - and horses focussing on doing Right Stuff in order to be more likely to earn Good Stuff. It's about setting the horse up for success, not failure. Eg. you don't just offer a horse a treat & punch it in the nose when it goes to take it grabbily. You teach the horse to keep it's nose to itself & be 'polite' and reward it for that. You don't just wait for the horse to run over you, mug you & then correct it, but you teach it to stop at a 'respectful' distance from you and reward that. You may be _ready_ to punish/correct at any given time, but your focus is _teaching/reinforcing Right._


I just thought that needed repeating.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Equilibrium said:


> So, food aggression/pushiness should be corrected (when the food is already down and the horse is eating, but you want to go over there an mess with the horse, instead of leaving the horse to eat in peace), but choose to simply not give the horse treats (instead of trying to fix the aggression/pushiness).


I'm not quite sure I get what you mean here, but I do think that there is good reason to 'mess with' a horse while they're eating, because 'what if' something happens & you need to - just like what if you need to go grab your dog away from some food, but you haven't taught them that it's OK & that it's Wrong to aggress at you when you do so. Regardless of the fact that it is *generally* not necessary to 'mess with', I think it's important that you establish the rules that they accept you doing so.



> I still don't understand why people are so adamant about correcting food aggression/pushiness, but not treat aggression - as in simply not dealing with it by simply not feeding treats.


I don't get what you mean. Do you mean that people just don't give food treats, rather than teaching the horse good manners with treats? I think this has been explained. I think it's that it's their prerogative, to avoid rather than 'treat' it, but this is usually based on misunderstanding - people blame the _food _for the behaviour.



> Isn't it kind of a safety thing to teach a horse how to be respectful around treat time, even if you aren't going to feed treats a lot/regularly?


Yes, IMO.



> I do not, nor do I condone, feeding random horses treats without their owner's permission, but in the case above, wouldn't it still have been safer to teach the horse to accept treats respectfully?


But every time you are interacting with a horse, they're learning. And if you can't 'train' the _70yo man_, or the _other people_ giving treats, you still can't rely on the horse to be 'polite' with other people. For eg. I've always been a stickler for manners, more so since I had kids 15 years ago. I am consistent about it & my horses have learned to be reliably polite & gentle with us. 2 of them had been with me many years before I agisted them on a property with other horses, one owned by a 70yo man who couldn't be told(is there something in that specific??  ), who despite my requests, would go into the paddock with a big bag of carrots & let all the horses 'mug' him & just dish them out regardless of behaviour. These 2 horses(& the other horses in the paddock) were still 'well behaved' with me, but they learned to be rude with him, because it worked, and as a result, learned it's worth a try with other people. I recently leased out a kid's pony & he's come back to me a fair bit ruder than when he left... 



> Some horse (and I speak from experience) get a little aggressive/pushy after their first treat looking for a second


Of course they do. It's worth a try! You've just got to teach them that kind of 'try' doesn't work. It's the Incorrect Answer.


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## Equilibrium (Apr 5, 2019)

loosie said:


> Do you mean that people just don't give food treats, rather than teaching the horse good manners with treats? I think this has been explained. I think it's that it's their prerogative, to avoid rather than 'treat' it, but this is usually based on misunderstanding - people blame the _food _for the behaviour.


Perfect. 
Thanks.

-

I don't condone aggression/pushiness at feedings or treat time. I do like for my horse to be "respectful" before, during, and after feedings/treatings, but I'm not one to religiously "show the horse whose boss" either.

I was, again, just wondering how contradictory and hypocritical is sounds to fix food aggression/pushiness through correction, but take the "easy way out" in treat aggression/pushiness by simply not feeding treats - ever.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Cedar & Salty said:


> If I fill my pockets up with treats that they can smell, and dole them out at random intervals, they are distracted, hoping they will get a treat, and are not focused on their jobs. So why fill up my pockets with treats? Why try to fix something that isn't broken?
> 
> It's like sitting four little kids around a table with a heaping platter of cookies in the center, then serving them a big old plate of broccoli. Even if they normally like broccoli, they are going to want to eat cookies more. Why put the cookies on the table in the first place, when you know it's going to start a battle?


I think that's a great analogy... as a good reason TO have treats in your pocket, TO leave cookies in sight of kids. Why do this? Because, again, you can't teach a horse to mind their manners when there's food involved(what if you had an apple in your pocket for yourself, for one...) if you don't have food involved. You can't teach kids self control, that they can't just have whatever they please just because it's there, if you don't ever allow that situation. 

As an argument _against_ doing this, I feel your egs are just like saying 'you shouldn't take kids into shops, because it's unfair to not buy them every attractive thing they see on the shelves.'


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Here's an education concept I'm appending to that horse clip: Tactical ignoring. It's the idea that you don't have to micromanage every single thing, you just manage the things that allow you to work smoothly, whether in a classroom or with a horse. It's not making a fight out of something that you can work around with no skin off your nose, something that's not particularly bothersome. The horse's moving around and expressing his displeasure in the washing part of the interaction isn't something that fazes me - but clearly, there's a difference between that and if the horse were actually trying to bite, kick etc, which he's not (but which he used to do, at first, and I dealt with that). For this horse, what he's doing isn't a preliminary to "I'm going to escalate if you don't stop XYZ" - I've already dealt with the escalated behaviour historically, which is what he came to me with. He's simply left with an expression of displeasure which I don't mind hearing, and which I empathise with. Sort of like kids getting vaccinated - he's that much of a hydrophobe, and been one since he was a foal - puddles etc. And yet we've learnt to get our feet wet, cross creeks etc, out on the trail.

Dealing with horses is a very individual thing, and this is one of those horses on whom aggression from a human would do nothing but set up a fight for dominance. This one can't be cowed, you'd have to kill him first - and people had tried that with him, unsuccessfully. He'd have died rather than give in, and in that, he's very much like me, actually. :Angel: So with him, establishing two-way communication was really important, and listening and considering him, and remaining relaxed and unfazed, and using humour and play, and showing that you did want to respect his boundaries, not just expect him to respect your boundaries and do your bidding. It had to be a two-way street with him, and yet, with any horse, even ones that can be easily cowed with dominance displays, the two-way street gets you so much further - the partnership is so much more fruitful than a boss-underling or even an employer-employee relationship could be. On this matter, I think very much like @knightrider, @bsms, @gottatrot, @Knave, and all of them have really impressed me with what they've done with their horses, in their various circumstances. Those people are real horsepeople, to me. :bowwdown: Sometimes, I have trouble distinguishing them from horses. :rofl: Horses are hairier than they are, I suppose. And they eat hay...


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Equilibrium said:


> I never said to carry around a fanny pack full of treats and tempt the horse....


I actually DO very often have treats in my bumbag - for horses, dogs, me... and very often they don't get ANY in the regular course of riding - tho lately with a puppy in training, it's more often than not that the dog treats get doled out... Just because I'm carrying them, doesn't mean they should expect/demand them. I also don't like/allow my dogs staring & 'begging' food while I eat either.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I didn’t read all of the responses, but @SueC called me back to reading the last couple again. 

I just didn’t have much to say on it. I give some horses treats often, and some I rarely give treats to. It depends on the horse for me. I don’t have anything to do with food aggression because we throw hay over the fence into the feeder.

I do catch horses while they are eating sometimes, and give them oats, but I’ve never had one mind when I caught them. Cash paws before he gets his oats, but I ignore it. I don’t really care because he’s not bothering me, even if he’s being dramatic.

I don’t give him treats often, although I’ll give him an apple core at lunch. He’s the type that it probably would become an issue with, closer to that aggressive mentality, so I don’t see a reason to create an issue. So, in response to the question “why not deal with the aggression rather than not feed treats?” I just figure he’s learning enough right now about respect and training that I don’t want another issue to deal with until he’s a bit more gentle. When I figure he won’t have an issue I’ll probably give him treats more than just the lunchtime apple core. Why set him up for failure?

Bones though, for example, I gave treats right off the start, but he doesn’t have any aggressive tendency towards people. Most don’t. 

As far as the responses I read regarding other things, I am with @SueC that it is more of a relationship. I was, not offended, but something milder than that about @loosie saying ranch horses have no positive reward. All Bones can process is positive because he’s overly emotional, and all my other horses receive just as much reward as anyone else’s. So do 99% of the ranch horses I know. We work hand in hand with horses, and if we are out there without a true love of that we wouldn’t be there.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Cedar & Salty said:


> the first thing a professional trainer told my daughter to do when she was struggling with respect issues with her horse was to stop hand feeding treats. The second was to leave him tacked and tied for 30 minutes after every ride.


I don't believe that just because 'a trainer' said this, that means it must be right.

& BTW, I'm just reading through the thread, replying to each as I'm reading... about a subject I'm passionate about. I realise I've replied to a few of yours in a row C&S - I am not doing this to 'pick on' you specifically or anything... just that your posts have given me... fuel to fire the discussion. ;-)


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

SueC said:


> People are commonly saying, "Training a donkey is so different to training a horse!" For me it wasn't in the slightest - the approach I use with horses is perfectly acceptable to donkeys. And dogs. And humans. :rofl: Once, in a conversation with a high school principal, about a particular class of rumbunctious middle schoolers I was taking, and taming (I _really_ don't like bad manners and inconsiderate behaviour), I remarked, in the middle of a pleasant conversation, "It's just like training horses, really!" and she was soooo shocked at me! :shock: :rofl: "mg: Sue, children aren't animals!" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


YES! Absolutely! We may all have our own motivators, preferences, ways of thinking, but we all - from lizards to humans, learn in essentially the same manner. And I've also been given horrified looks at saying something like 'kids are like training dogs' or such, and I've also had people who couldn't see who I was speaking to, thinking I was talking to a young child when I spoke to my dogs, or vice versa!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

loosie said:


> I don't believe that just because 'a trainer' said this, that means it must be right.


 @loosie, further to that, here's the funny thing: If I'd listened to a fair proportion of professional trainers, I'd not have gotten half as far with my horses as doing what works in their particular case. From the time I was nine, I was working with horses professional trainers had given up on. It's how my birth family got their first horse cheap. Those sorts of horses - and my family had more like that later, such as Romeo, who was handled with extraordinary incompetence by highly respected professional trainers who had bought him for megabucks because he was so blue-blooded, and ended up at a dog auction at age 3, and yet with us, he was a wonderfully amenable, cooperative horse - those sorts of horses are often the horses that teach you what the professional trainers hadn't learnt, if you actually listen to what they have to say. They're often the highly strung, or the traumatised, or the "No, you can't mess with me just because you're human and I don't care how much you hurt me, I'm not giving in!" type horses. Learn to deal with them, and you're on your way to real horsepersonship (I need a better word!).

And yes, there are also some wonderful professional trainers - but like with any profession, you get the good, the bad and the ugly. Appeal to authority or position means nothing to me. I want to see how people are with their horses, and to judge them on their true merits, not their extraneous things, like ribbons or their bank account from training or the gold plate on their door or the amount of genuflecting people do around them.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Equilibrium said:


> I was, again, just wondering how contradictory and hypocritical is sounds to fix food aggression/pushiness through correction, but take the "easy way out" in treat aggression/pushiness by simply not feeding treats - ever.


Ah yes, I agree that's contradictory & hypocritical.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Knave said:


> I was, not offended, but something milder than that about @loosie saying ranch horses have no positive reward.


Pardon if it came across like that. That's not what I meant. I thought I said IF ranch(or other) horses weren't given any positive reinforcement, IF they were therefore trained solely with -R/+P. And in case this was taken wrongly too, I also wasn't saying they're all 'shut down', but that an awful lot of horses I see that are trained WITHOUT any +R are. 

And if I didn't put those things well, I better also clarify that I wasn't assuming Cedar & Salty's ranch horses were 'shut down' either.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Knave said:


> I do catch horses while they are eating sometimes, and give them oats, but I’ve never had one mind when I caught them. Cash paws before he gets his oats, but I ignore it. I don’t really care because he’s not bothering me, even if he’s being dramatic.
> 
> I don’t give him treats often, although I’ll give him an apple core at lunch. He’s the type that it probably would become an issue with, closer to that aggressive mentality, so I don’t see a reason to create an issue. So, in response to the question “why not deal with the aggression rather than not feed treats?” I just figure he’s learning enough right now about respect and training that I don’t want another issue to deal with until he’s a bit more gentle. When I figure he won’t have an issue I’ll probably give him treats more than just the lunchtime apple core. Why set him up for failure?
> 
> Bones though, for example, I gave treats right off the start, but he doesn’t have any aggressive tendency towards people. Most don’t.


That's a typical example of picking your battles and addressing them in order of priority - and also an excellent illustration of horse training not being a one-size-fits-all thing, but a very individual thing. You have to tailor what you do to your particular situation and horse. There is no list of steps in existence that you can follow slavishly to produce a good horse every time. I have no time for dogma, or for "gurus"... And the horsepeople I respect the most are not the ones with the high profiles, but the ordinary unsung ones doing better jobs than the well-publicised ones. :cowboy:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_Admire the horse for the good things he does and just kinda ignore the wrong things. First thing you know, the good things will get better and the bad things will get less._" - Ray Hunt​
I keep my horses for years. How I treat a horse (treat, not "treats") I've known for a long time, or will know for a long time, is very different from how I treat a strange horse. Professional trainers work with tons of strange horses. And if one trainer tells you it will take them 6 months to correct X, and another trainer says he can do it in a week, which do you hire? So professional trainers tend to learn and use techniques that work good enough & fast.

I'm no pro, and I'm in no hurry. I don't have two weeks. I've got YEARS. I find many professional trainers, in writing and on YouTube, use techniques high in dominance and low on genuine relationship. If my income relied on being able to handle X in a week, I'd do the same thing!

My horses live in a corral. There is no way I'm going to stand guard over a food bucket, refusing to let them approach, to show them I'm dominant. Feeding would take too long. If a horse charged the bucket, I would. That has never happened to me, maybe because food aggression issues are a symptom of a bad relationship, not the cause.

Ranch horses. I don't live on a ranch. I sometimes visit a friend's sheep ranch. Pushing the sheep up into the mountains, the horses put in a 30-35 mile day getting them part way. The next morning, before sunrise, the horse I was assigned was already interested in the coming day. After mounting, we did big figure 8s to burn off his energy. Once the sheep started moving, he settled. 

Mid-afternoon, we stopped where the allotment started. The sheep started grazing. My wife was enjoying the day.








About an hour later, I took this picture:








The horse seemed kind of focused but I didn't think much about it until my wife, a few minutes later, asked if some of the herd was drifting off over a ridge - which was exactly where the horse was looking! One of the professional herders looked that way, looked at the horse, said something in Spanish, then ran and jumped on the horse. As soon as his rump hit the saddle, the horse was off after the sheep! Didn't need direction or urging. The horse KNEW what was needed. He was just waiting for a human (and dog) to join in.

Or so it seemed to me. Sure looked like he knew his job at least as well as the herders. Like Mia and now Bandit on the trail, it seemed he already had decided what needed to be done and was waiting for the fool human to catch up.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

For positive reinforcement, this passage from 1868 continues to challenge me:



> ..There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement; and under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this without overtaxing its powers, will work willingly to the last gasp, which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal...
> 
> ..Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored; they like amusement, variety, and society: give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place, especially with young animals. It is evident that all these things must be taken into account and receive due attention, whether it be our object to prevent or to get rid of some bad habit a horse may have acquired; and a little reflection will generally suffice to point out the means of remedying something that, if left to itself, would grow into a confirmed habit, or if attacked with the energy of folly and violence, would suddenly culminate in the grand catastrophe of restiveness... - On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (1868)


Positive reinforcement isn't confined to food or treats. A horse who feels like a valued part of the team, who is allowed to use some degree of initiative in achieving a goal, finds a satisfaction that goes much deeper than a nibble of food. I won't pretend it is easy, and I certainly won't pretend I succeed much of the time, but "_a little reflection will generally suffice to point out the means of remedying something that...if attacked with the energy of folly and violence, would suddenly culminate in the grand catastrophe of restiveness..._"

A horse who sees value in being ridden will not be hard to mount. You won't have to punish him for moving at the mounting block. We teach new riders that total submission is the sign of a good rider on a good horse, then wonder why horses don't want us to get on them...or find "reward" when we get off!

"...*the grand catastrophe of restiveness*..." Would that all riders felt the same way!


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## Equilibrium (Apr 5, 2019)

bsms said:


> A horse who sees value in being ridden will not be hard to mount. You won't have to punish him for moving at the mounting block.


I'm not sure about this. It sounds like a vague, blanket statement.

Do you mean at first (like teaching a little three/four year old) or later in their life after they know how to stand?

Of course, I do think some horses enjoy being with us, having a job, or getting ridden, but I don't think just because a horse lets you do (x), that means they "enjoy" it or "see value" in it.

What's the training behind it?

A lot of horses that don't get a "choice" tend to feel forced give-up / give-in.

A horse that gets beaten if they move from the mounting block will eventually "submit", learn to stand, and "not be hard to mount", but I don't think that the horse "sees value" in you riding.

At what point in their life/training are you making that statement?

Some young/green horses do stand somewhat automatically at the mounting block without much human help, but others need to be trained to do so. If at any point they need to be "corrected" from moving at the mounting block, does that mean they "see no value in you riding" or simply because they are green/young?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I don't think submission means a horse enjoys it or sees value in it. But a horse who sees value will cooperate because he wants to. The never-ending challenge is in trying to convince the horse we humans add value.

My point was that a horse who needs to be punished to stand next to a mounting block is a horse who isn't very interested in you getting on his back! And there is no one way to approach that sort of training. "Do no harm" is a good start. If it hurts the horse when you climb aboard - which is how a lot of videos of mounting look to me - then of course the horse won't be too happy. But if the horse sees you as an enabler, then you won't have a problem with mouthing. Horses aren't that stupid. If they want you on their back, they will make it easy to get there.

And if riding means doing endless circles in an arena, with the rider dominating the horse and trying to control the horse's every movement (body control!)...then yeah, who is to blame the horse for not wanting to be ridden. Our BLM mustang was a school horse for a few years. To this day he panics if you try to start riding him in circles in an arena. But on a trail, he's utterly sensible.

In the late 1950s, Moyra Williams tried to teach her horses to be ridden, not just bitless, but reinless - while jumping, while fox hunting, and while riding around Oxfordshire England. She wrote:


> I was treating Nona as a slave and plaything; a piece of putty to be molded to my will, an automaton which would only move at my command. It was not till I met Portia that this attitude began to change. From Portia I discovered the limitations of this outlook. I discovered how cramping is the desire to dominate, how many of the horse's own abilities are overlooked if man replaces by his own judgments the inborn intuition of the animal....
> 
> When I gave up trying to control Portia and tried instead to find out what she was, both she and life took on a different complexion. Here in my very back garden and under my own hand was the novelty and thrill I had missed while traveling over five continents. Here was the adventure, knowledge and inspiration which some people seek in outer space, others in the unexplored centre of the earth's surface. Here, in front of my eyes as soon as I opened them to it, was excitement enough for a lifetime...
> 
> ...


If one focuses on willing cooperation rather than obedience, riding and training get much tougher. I'm 61. I'll probably never buy another horse. What I do with my own horse is pretty pathetic by many peoples' standards. That is OK by me. I don't have a ranch. I cannot give them a real job. Too often, my horse "_will merely say, "This fool rider does not know what he is talking about," and go its own way."_ And that is with a bit! But then, I don't like using the bit very much. As Moyra Williams put it: "_It is too easy to transform a request into a command. It is too easy for Man to be supreme._" Yet the never-ending challenge of trying to get my horse to WANT what I want - "_the eternal [challenge] of the educationalist and the politician_" -is the only reason I have for riding. Without it, I'd sell my three and spend more time traveling while retired.


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

bsms said:


> For positive reinforcement, this passage from 1868 continues to challenge me:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This, this, this!

I think there are "shut down" and "blown out" horses in every discipline, but in my experience, REAL ranch horses in the American West, are some of the happiest horses in the world. They are valued for their brains. They see themselves as a partner, and are happy to do a variety of things. 

I attended a "Horseman's Challenge" yesterday and will be going several times more over the course of the weekend. Five skilled natural horsemanship trainers picked 2 year old untouched BLM mustangs to start and train over multiple two hour sessions. The things I noticed, as I watched the initial hour last night was there wasn't a treat bag in sight.

I was astounded at the individual horses' desire to understand the strange creatures with them in the round pens, and their ready acceptance of the possibility of cross-species social relationships. The method that the most successful (so far) trainers used was "mirroring."

If you're running, I'll run with you, if you're resting, I'll rest with you. One trainer essentially had his colt moving at liberty with him in 15 minutes -- forward, back, walk, trot, turn. 

Think about it, horses don't give each other treats. They share food, may assist with locating food, but they aren't offering each other apples and peppermints. They share presence. They share purpose. They share fun. They share fear. They investigate new, novel things. They provide a sense of security and safety for each other. 

I have found with my horses that the most meaningful bonding occurs after a morning ride, when they return to their stalls and buddies and stand quietly together, breathing deeply, relaxed heads hanging, eyes gently closing. They will stand near me, breathing softly, allowing me to rest my hand on their heads or drape my arm over their necks, just being part of the herd.

My horses will calmly stand tied, leg cocked, relaxed, almost napping, but they will always have an ear or eye on me -- not in fear or frustration, but in curiosity. They load easily because they like going places and doing things. They come off a trailer in a new place with excitement and interest. They are always up for everything, barrels, cows, desert or mountain trails, tooling around a busy arena, or just fooling around at home. 

We are a herd, and while shared food is a part of the social bond, it's not the biggest part. I'm not anti-treat, but also don't find them necessary at all on a regular basis.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

:iagree:​
I wish I had a real job for my horses to do. I think horses understand work, at least in the sense of being partners to achieve a common goal. I'm convinced horses love to be part of "The Great We". Part of a team. A valued part of the team! My horse acts proud of himself after doing something tough. I try to encourage that.

I believe horses learn to trust us by our being trustWORTHY. I believe the real reward for a horse comes when they feel like partners. Baucher said *'Let him think that he is our master, then he is our slave.'* I doubt he meant it the way I do, but when we give up some control, and allow our horses to participate, the horse gains an interest. HOW to do that, at least without a ranch, is much tougher than "Apply this rein to control his shoulder..."


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## Equilibrium (Apr 5, 2019)

Cedar & Salty said:


> I attended a "Horseman's Challenge" yesterday and will be going several times more over the course of the weekend. Five skilled natural horsemanship trainers picked 2 year old untouched BLM mustangs to start and train over multiple two hour sessions. The things I noticed, as I watched the initial hour last night was there wasn't a treat bag in sight.


No offence, but I don't really call this "astounding."

While treats can help the horse learn a good association with you, that's not really something to start off with - especially with a completely untouched, "wild" mustang. Respect (and an absence of fear) comes before "bond", as said in another topic.

A lot of horses don't eat when they are scared (domestic or wild), which I'll bet a pretty penny those BLM weren't relaxed. Although food does help calm them (horses), it dampens their hearing (due to the chewing), and they are more focused on survival (can't eat if you're dead). You can see it for yourself. A scared, blind bolting horse isn't going to randomly drop their head and start munching. That's also why when people try to get their horse into the trailer soley with food, it doesn't work.

Besides, a completely wild, untouched horse probably isn't going to take unfamiliar food (they don't have grain or peppermints in the wild), especially from an unfamiliar human.


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

Equilibrium said:


> No offence, but I don't really call this "astounding."
> 
> While treats can help the horse learn a good association with you, that's not really something to start off with - especially with a completely untouched, "wild" mustang. Respect (and an absence of fear) comes before "bond", as said in another topic.
> 
> ...


Wow. Bless your heart.


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## Equilibrium (Apr 5, 2019)

Cedar & Salty said:


> Wow. Bless your heart.


LOL. Thanks. I'm from the South; I know what that means.


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

Equilibrium said:


> LOL. Thanks. I'm from the South; I know what that means.


No, offense!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

When you keep the date you’re dating waiting hours
If you have to miss your sister’s high school play
When you prune away your neighbor’s favorite flowers
They will all forgive you if you smile and say

Bless your pea pickin’ heart
Bless your pea pickin’ heart
Tell your waiting date and sister
Tell your neighbor listen mister
Bless your pea pickin’ heart

Now when junior paints his room in purple splendor
When your party line ties up your line all day
When your wife comes home with someone ELSE SUSPENDERS
Then you’d better count to ten and softly say

Bless your pea pickin’ heart...​


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

bsms said:


> I don't think submission means a horse enjoys it or sees value in it. But a horse who sees value will cooperate because he wants to. The never-ending challenge is in trying to convince the horse we humans add value.
> 
> My point was that a horse who needs to be punished to stand next to a mounting block is a horse who isn't very interested in you getting on his back! And there is no one way to approach that sort of training. "Do no harm" is a good start. If it hurts the horse when you climb aboard - which is how a lot of videos of mounting look to me - then of course the horse won't be too happy. But if the horse sees you as an enabler, then you won't have a problem with mouthing. Horses aren't that stupid. If they want you on their back, they will make it easy to get there.


Indeed. When I walk next to Sunsmart on the ground between a series of gates on the way to the forest trails to the west of our farm, he wants to interact, by pulling my sleeve or playing "The Stick Game" - where I find and offer him a stick, and he carries it with a satisfied expression like a dog carries its toy. After a while, he'll look at me sideways - my cue to start a tug-of-war with him. Sometimes I even make "rrrrrr-rrrrrr-rrrrrr" sounds like I do when playing this game with my dog (who is with us on trails and seems to see nothing unusual in our behaviour). Then he'll let me carry it for a while, before wanting to pick it up again. We have all sorts of fun. But when we get past the final gate, he stops and gives me a pointed look, and there's no mistaking his opinion that I should get back in the saddle now because we've done enough walking, and we're never going to move at a decent speed unless he's carrying me. Clearly I'm a special-needs monkey with a speed disability, and he's sort of my wheelchair.... This will come in ever handier the older I get...

The French Trotter mare I rode as a child - his great-grandmother - actually started lowering her neck and looking at me suggestively when little me tried to get on bareback - she was over 16hh. I remember this instance - I was trying to walk her over to something I could mount off, like an arena edge or fence. And she stopped, gave me a significant look, and dropped her neck. I slid over it until I was centred on it, and then she slowly lifted her neck, elevating me and allowing me to slide on her back. I weighed around 40kg then, so this was easy for her... I didn't realise this was unusual until I grew up. To get this sort of two-way street, you have to listen to your horse's suggestions...

I'm nostalgic this morning, so here's a photo of her and me at around this time:










Great Moyra Williams quote - I'm benefiting from your extensive reading! 

Now here's a quote that is relevant to the discussion in this thread on setting people / horses up for failure, etc. In Anne Brontë's _The Tenant Of Wildfell Hall_, the protagonist Helen has had to flee from her alcoholic, abusive husband with her very young son, whom he was trying to get drunk, amongst other things. Because of the father's encouragement of alcohol consumption and disrespectful and bullying behaviour to other people in his son, Helen has had to counter-educate him, and because of his habit of asking for alcohol, has put a substance in offered wine that makes her son nauseated after drinking it, so after a while he stops requesting alcoholic drinks. For this she was criticised by others:

"If you would have your son to walk honourably through the world, you must not attempt to clear the stones from his path, but teach him to walk firmly over them – not insist upon leading him by the hand, but let him learn to go alone."

To which she replies, "I will lead him by the hand till he has strength to go it alone; and I will clear as many stones from his path as I can, and teach him to avoid the rest - or to walk firmly over them, as you say - for when I have done my utmost, in the way of clearance, there will still be plenty left to exercise all his agility. steadiness and circumspection he will ever have."

Just an excerpt from a long philosophical discussion. And @loosie, @Cedar & Salty - I'm sort of in the middle here, between your respective points of view. I'd have a lot of biscuits out that weren't always for the eating - but would make them a bit less conspicuous when serving up broccoli! :smile:


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

> ; it likes variety of scene and amusement;


Hehe! All my horses seem to honestly enjoy getting out & about. If riding from home, they're generally 'keener' going out than returning. But what you quoted above bsms reminded me of one in particular. I like 'variety of scene' too & we very often trailer the horses to different places. While the others are comfortable & compliant with going in the float, they'd prefer not to. Where as this little brumby(who I was told by the previous owner hated & was frightened to go in the float) sees me hooking up & looks excited. He is KEEN to get himself into the trailer & go out to different places to ride. If however, we arrive at a place he's been to a fair few times before, he looks a bit disappointed. :lol:


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

...& the comment about broccoli & bikkies in front of kids... being Easter, I just saw the perfect picture on FB to illustrate - but it's of someone else's kid so won't share... It was a picture of a scowling kid at a table with a bucket of easter eggs in front of her - Dad had told her she had to have a healthy brekky before she was allowed to start on the 296(!!) easter eggs!

...Won't tell him that in our household on easter sunday we ALL start the day with chocolate!


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

rambo99 said:


> newtrailriders said:
> 
> 
> > We live next door to my parents and my dad loves to go and feed the horses carrots over the fence. When he goes out into the pasture for whatever reason, my sweet little mare likes to go demand carrots and bite him on the shoulder if he doesn't have one. So seriously....70 year old men should not be feeding treats to horses and then going out in the pasture with them, but you can't tell a 70 year old man anything.
> ...


Yeah so what I’m saying is....people shouldn’t do the things that encourage horses to show food aggression, because if they’re allowed to do it they will. I can’t train my horse not to push my dad around when he keeps letting her treat him like a broken vending machine when I’m not around. I can train her not to be aggressive with ME, but she’ll show food aggression toward somebody who does the things my dad does. People need to realize the natural horse tendencies and not encourage the behavior but I don’t think it can be trained out of horses in general. It’s a natural trait. Just because she doesn’t do it to me I don’t believe she wouldn’t get pushy with someone who’s been hand feeding her over the fence no matter how much I train her not to be aggressive.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Today my parents had my little step nieces out there in their Easter dresses feeding the horses over the fence, taking pictures, it was adorable and they got some very cute photos but I’m worried that the horses are learning that children mean treats. They eagerly run to the fence when they see children and I’m glad there’s a fence between them. When they ran out of the treats one of the horses started pawing and we corrected him but if a child who had been feeding him went out into the pasture and an adult wasn’t around....I’m afraid no amount of training would prevent a horse from getting pushy.


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## NeverDullRanch (Nov 11, 2009)

Clicker training is based on "operant conditioning." Simplified, that's "ignore the bad; reward the good." Personally, I'm a big fan of clicker training, but you don't need to indulge in it to practice operant conditioning. When the horse is rewarded* only *for giving you the right answer, over time it will look for ways to earn positive reinforcement for positive behavior. You have to avoid the urge to treat the horse during every interaction you have with it, and you should try to set up situations where the horse can earn a reward easily. It doesn't have to be a treat. There is a local trainer whose motto is, "What you release is what you teach." Taking OFF pressure when the horse responds to a command is as effective a reward as a pat, a "good boy," or a cookie. Read one of Alexandra Kurland's books to get a feel for this systematic training method. Positive reinforcement has been proven to be the most effective style of teaching, whether it is animals or people.


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## Equilibrium (Apr 5, 2019)

NeverDullRanch said:


> Clicker training is based on "operant conditioning." Simplified, that's "ignore the bad; reward the good." Personally, I'm a big fan of clicker training, but you don't need to indulge in it to practice operant conditioning. When the horse is rewarded* only *for giving you the right answer, over time it will look for ways to earn positive reinforcement for positive behavior. You have to avoid the urge to treat the horse during every interaction you have with it, and you should try to set up situations where the horse can earn a reward easily. It doesn't have to be a treat. There is a local trainer whose motto is, "What you release is what you teach." Taking OFF pressure when the horse responds to a command is as effective a reward as a pat, a "good boy," or a cookie. Read one of Alexandra Kurland's books to get a feel for this systematic training method. Positive reinforcement has been proven to be the most effective style of teaching, whether it is animals or people.


This is up @loosie 's alley.

I believe you have made a mistake. +R is positively rewarding a desired behavior, which you are correct about. However, if you are taking off pressure (and therefore giving release), you are using -R, not +R.... For -R is the removal of undesired stimulus to help reinforce a desired behavior.

+R and -R are both used to reinforcement a desired behavior, but they are very different and should be careful as to not confuse the two.

-

I am a fan of +R; I use it all the time; it works. However, I don't use it as my "foundation." That's not really how horses work (through good deeds by bribery (in their eyes)). Horses, again, do do well with +R, but horses usually communicate by -R or +P. Although, I do think that some humans can tend to go a little overboard with the -R and +P, but you can't simply "ignore" a horse coming charging at you, ears back, and teeth bared, for example, and say, "pls no. bad horse. no cookie for u."

Using "If you do good, I'll give you a cookie" all the time is, essentially, bribery - not a "reward", although it can and does reinforce. 

It can work for some things, for some horses, for some people, but not all - and not usually in the long run. It depends on the horse, the person, and the situation.

:/


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## horsemanguy (Apr 22, 2019)

i only give treats in moderation, usually after i work with the horse


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## NeverDullRanch (Nov 11, 2009)

*What book did YOU read?*

To Equilibrium: Maybe you would like to enlighten all of us. What is this plus and minus stuff? Do you have advice for the person who posed the original question?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I believe Equilibrium posted the original post, . . I guess it's a question. She/ He is asking, I believe in a hypothetical inquiry, , . .,no?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I too recommend people learn about 'clicker training'. I dont personally use a clicker & am not a 'purist' about using only positive reinforcement, but the *principles* of operant conditioning and positive reinforcement training are invaluable to understand.



NeverDullRanch said:


> It doesn't have to be a treat. There is a local trainer whose motto is, "What you release is what you teach." Taking OFF pressure when the horse responds to a command is as effective a reward as a pat, a "good boy," or a cookie.


You are correct that positive reinforcement doesn't have to be a food treat. It is not correct however that it is effectively the same as negative reinforcement(relief of pressure). Pretty sure that it's in this here thread, if you look back a few pages, that bsms &/or Hondo explained the difference quite well.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

NeverDullRanch said:


> To Equilibrium: Maybe you would like to enlighten all of us. What is this plus and minus stuff? Do you have advice for the person who posed the original question?


I believe if you read the whole thread NDR, your question will be answered. I am actually confused that you discuss operant conditioning and positive reinforcement, butt you don't know the diff between +R & -R.


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## NeverDullRanch (Nov 11, 2009)

*Never saw "R+ and R-" until this thread*

All I can say is, I read Alexandra Kurland and tried to follow her instruction. My horse flabbergasted me with his excitement at learning new skills. Forgive me, ive not read whatever articles you've read. Apparently, they are light years ahead of us (in some respects) Down Under.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^yeah no worries, no reason to apologise. I am used to people being confused by the difference & definition between positive & negative reinforcement - I have studied behavioural psych but of course appreciate not everyone is on that 'page'... what 'caught' me was that you were discussing operant conditioning etc. 

If you were so fascinated by what you've learned so far, my bet is that you would really enjoy learning more about behavioural psych! ;-)


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

NeverDullRanch said:


> Apparently, they are light years ahead of us (in some respects) Down Under.


Pretty sure Alex kurland is European, many famous behaviorist are American, but I don't think we're that much (if at all) behind the times on this front in Oz...


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## Equilibrium (Apr 5, 2019)

NeverDullRanch said:


> To Equilibrium: Maybe you would like to enlighten all of us. What is this plus and minus stuff? Do you have advice for the person who posed the original question?


Plus (+) and Minus (-) is positive and negative, respectively. R and P is reinforcement and punishment, respectively.

+R (Positive Reinforcement) = The adding of a desired stimulus to reinforce a desired behavior. For example, giving a cookie to a horse that comes when called.

-R (Negative Reinforcement) = The removal of an undesired stimulus to reinforce a desired behavior. For example, you stop (release) waving your arms (pressure) when your horse backs.

+P (Positive Punishment) = The adding of an undesired stimulus to "punish"/correct/stop a undesired behavior. For example, you hit you horse that just bit you.

-P (Negative Reinforcement) = The removal of a desired stimulus to "punish"/correct/stop an undesired behavior. For example, two horses are fighting over a hay pile, so you remove the hay.
@loosie
When is -P used with horses?

Note:
My examples are kind of bad, but hopefully you get the idea.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Equilibrium said:


> @loosie
> When is -P used with horses?


:clap: I would say rarely - I think your eg about hay is fine but don't think that sort of tactic is generally well understood by a horse. This particular subject is one eg it could be tho - you go to offer the horse a treat for something, but he's 'rude' so you withhold it.


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## Equilibrium (Apr 5, 2019)

loosie said:


> :clap: I would say rarely - I think your eg about hay is fine but don't think that sort of tactic is generally well understood by a horse. This particular subject is one eg it could be tho - you go to offer the horse a treat for something, but he's 'rude' so you withhold it.


Yeah. I just couldn't think of any other situation of -P. I don't think -P is as "strong" (compared +R, -R, and +P), especially with animals.


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