# bits?



## abbie (Dec 9, 2009)

Hi everyone. new to the forum. and riding. not so much horses. lol. anyway, need some questions answered about bits. i just got a rescue horse a few weeks back who i also took lessons on for a while about two months prior. he's a great horse, listens perfect and does anything you ask. (can't understand how someone could have neglected him the way they did.) the bit my trainer suggested and used was a tom thumb. but the only bit i had at home was one someone gave to me and im not even sure what its called. its just one solid piece, with the curve in the middle. anyway, tacked him up and he did just fine with it. took it better actually. is there any difference other than performance in a bit? like, is the one i have okay for just trail riding? comfort wise for him is what i'm getting at. i'll only be riding him light and i don't want to use an uncomfortable bit on him since i probably wouldn't need one anyway because of how gentle and well mannered he is. if anyone could just fill me in and help me out a little i'd appreciate it. =) thanks


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Do you have a pic of it? It sounds like a regular curb bit though. As long as he goes well in it, you are able to neck rein him, and you aren't having to pull alot on it, he should be fine. However, if you have to put alot of pressure to get him to stop or turn, I would suggest going back to a snaffle bit, of some sort, as a fixed shank bit (including Tom Thumbs) do not have individual rein pressure capabilities, and all you'll do is confuse him if you try to 'buggy rein' him with one.


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## abbie (Dec 9, 2009)

i was thinking about just buying what hes used to. i mean he did great with the other bit, but i might as well just keep using what hes used to especially since i'm a new rider. I don't want to confuse him with my own mistakes or anything like that.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

abbie said:


> i was thinking about just buying what hes used to. i mean he did great with the other bit, but i might as well just keep using what hes used to especially since i'm a new rider. I don't want to confuse him with my own mistakes or anything like that.


 
^^good idea and keep taking lessons so you don't loose what you have with him and you can improve.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

If he went *better* in the new bit, keep it! It will generally mean he is more comfortable.


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## dashygirl (Nov 21, 2006)

abbie said:


> i was thinking about just buying what hes used to. i mean he did great with the other bit, but i might as well just keep using what hes used to especially since i'm a new rider. I don't want to confuse him with my own mistakes or anything like that.


This is smart. 

Why did your trainer tell you to put a different bit on him? If there is no reason to change it then you shouldn't.

To answer your original question, yes a Tom Thumb is just fine for trails. You don't need any specific performance bit.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

If he did beter with the curved snaffle (I'm guessing) thingy then by all means don't change it


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

Although I don't follow my own advice :roll: If it ain't broke don't fix it is a good rule to follow. 
If you are direct reining (pulling the reins in the direction you want the horse to go) then you will want a snaffle type bit. If you are using an indirect rein or neck reining a shanked or curb bit is good. There's more to this but this is a simple definition.
Not sure how new you are so I'll stick in some photos. You may already know this, if so please forgive me 









Curb bit





Snaffle bit-













Snaffle bit


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## letsgetserious (Apr 17, 2009)

If you are neck reining the tom thumb is fine, but I would suggest to switch to the curb if you direct rein.


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## 2horses (Oct 11, 2009)

I think the low port curb (sounds like what you described) would be more comfortable than a tom thumb.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

letsgetserious said:


> If you are neck reining the tom thumb is fine, but I would suggest to switch to the curb if you direct rein.


Wrong.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

I second that!

If you are doing a direct rein or Plow rein, you should use something like a snaffle. This is what you use on younger horses to teach them to give laterially. As they become broke, you can migrate to a curb bit for one handed control.

But there are lot of horses that spend entire career in a snaffle.

If you have a mild curb bit like Vidaloco posted. and if your horses responds well in that bit. There is nothing wrong with it. Understand it is a leveraged bit. Meaning what ever pressure you pull on the reins, it is multiplied several time by the leverage in the shanks and the horses feels much more pressure than you feel. Remember to be light with your hands and not balance your body by hanging on the reins.


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## spence (Nov 8, 2009)

when i first bought my app he was in a curb and did alright. i then proceeded to move for a while and work at a camp, where mostly all that was used was snaffles and TT's. i came back and started using a regular loose ring snaffle. he responded well with it, and i tried a tom thumb ONCE. never again, i actually had much LESS control with that TT. we're trying out a wire twist snaffle but that verdict is still out, and outside the scope of this thread...

i really believe, just my opinion, that it's not too terribly important which you use. as long as you're comfortable with it, and you get the proper responses from your horse, it will be just fine. now, i do prefer to use a milder bit when possible. that's why my horse hasn't seen a curb in almost 2 years now...


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I am NOT a fan of jointed curb bits.


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## letsgetserious (Apr 17, 2009)

Obviously a snaffle would be preferred for direct reining what I MEANT was that out of the two it's better.

Jesus Christ.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

letsgetserious said:


> Obviously a snaffle would be preferred for direct reining what I MEANT was that out of the two it's better.
> 
> Jesus Christ.


Still wrong try again.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

letsgetserious said:


> If you are neck reining the tom thumb is fine, but I would suggest to switch to the curb if you direct rein.


Huh???? You can't direct rein in a curb bit, even with a Tom Thumb curb...in order to direct rein efficiently and effectively you have to ride in a bit that has individually moving rings...


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## letsgetserious (Apr 17, 2009)

This is what I've been taught, but I suppose that was in fact wrong so I am sorry. And you obviously can't direct rein with a tom thumb...but I've seen plenty of people direct rein perfectly fine with some other curbs..? Someone explain this please.

p.s. kevins horses get over yourself.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

letsgetserious said:


> This is what I've been taught, but I suppose that was in fact wrong so I am sorry. And you obviously can't direct rein with a tom thumb...but I've seen plenty of people direct rein perfectly fine with some other curbs..? Someone explain this please.
> 
> p.s. kevins horses get over yourself.


Some curb bits (remember anything with shanks is considered a curb, regardless of the mouthpeice), do have loose shanks, or swivel type shanks, so you can do a certain amount of direct reining if needed with these kind of bits (wonder bit is a good example of what I'm talking about, even though it is a gag bit). However, fixed shanks (the curb and the tom thumb talked about in this thread) are not good for direct reining, as they will just pull on the opposite side of the face, more than actually give a good 'one rein' contact. Sure, people do direct rein in alot of bits that aren't designed for it, but that doesn't mean it's a 'good thing' :wink: Hope this helps...


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

letsgetserious said:


> This is what I've been taught, but I suppose that was in fact wrong so I am sorry. And you obviously can't direct rein with a tom thumb...but I've seen plenty of people direct rein perfectly fine with some other curbs..? Someone explain this please.
> 
> p.s. kevins horses get over yourself.


In the future I will leave you in your snug cradle of ignorance. I said nothing rude I simply informed you that you were mistaken.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

I truely don't think any curb bit is for direct reining. (except swivel shanks)... Pretty much what Mom2Pride said 

But all in all, I'm not a fan at all of the American Tom Thumb. So _any _grazing curb has_ got_ to be better?


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## letsgetserious (Apr 17, 2009)

mom2pride said:


> Some curb bits (remember anything with shanks is considered a curb, regardless of the mouthpeice), do have loose shanks, or swivel type shanks, so you can do a certain amount of direct reining if needed with these kind of bits (wonder bit is a good example of what I'm talking about, even though it is a gag bit). However, fixed shanks (the curb and the tom thumb talked about in this thread) are not good for direct reining, as they will just pull on the opposite side of the face, more than actually give a good 'one rein' contact. Sure, people do direct rein in alot of bits that aren't designed for it, but that doesn't mean it's a 'good thing' :wink: Hope this helps...


Exactly what I was looking for, thank you!





kevinshorses said:


> In the future I will leave you in your snug cradle of ignorance. I said nothing rude I simply informed you that you were mistaken.


Without saying why is a little rude you have to admit.
Explain next time.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

I happen to direct rein in a Tom Thumb and run barrels in it with no problem. Whoever said "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is right. Why mess with your horses mouth if it is just fine? Granted, I go back and forth between direct reining and neck reining but I do compete mostly two handed and we do just fine.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Your horse must be a saint.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Um, no. That is how she was trained and what she has always gone in. No reason to change it if it works. I've had her for ten years. And my pony also goes in a Tom Thumb, I've had her for 14 years. I'm not exactly a beginner, if that's what you're thinking. Annie has a soft mouth, no head tossing, to yanking the reins out of my hands, and always does everything I ask. My grandmother(who has been breaking horses for 30+ years) swears by a Tom Thumb, as do many older trainers I know. It may seem like a harsh bit, but any bit is harsh in the wrong hands. I was taught how to effectively use it.


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## letsgetserious (Apr 17, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> ^ Your horse must be a saint.


Agreed lol


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Please tell me, does she look all that unhappy? She is a saint, but only because she puts up with young kids learning to ride. How cruel of me to ask her to do that.




PS: I won that class and took home the Grand Champion for the day.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Hey, relax, I never said you were hurting her or that you were a beginner. But -direct reining in a tom thumb is a very confusing business - I meant your horse must be a saint to understand what you are asking. No western shanked bit is meant to be direct reined in - The very design means that direct reining actually has the opposite effect to what a direct rein would have in a snaffle - So basically the horse has to learn backwards.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

What bit do you use when you are teaching youngsters to ride?


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

I did not train her, for the record. That is just what she goes in, and I see no reason to change it. I started my colt in an offset dee ring snaffle, and he will be staying in that unless I feel that it needs changing. However, my grandmother swears by using a Tom Thumb as a breaking bit. It is a great transition bit from snaffle to curb, actually.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

A breaking bit? Egads. IMO no horse should ever be started in a curb. Ever. 

^ Actually, it isn't. It looks like it would be - Adding the broken mouthpiece that most snaffles have to a curb bit - But it makes for a very confusing ride, especially if the horse is used to a snaffle. It should NOT be direct reined. If a horse is transitioning from a snaffle to a curb it should already know how to neck rein and the rider should be able to control each part of the body via seat and legs - Once you switch, the actual mouthpiece isn't important - All the horse is getting used to is the different method of pressure. I have a horse who I ride in a snaffle - I bet I could put a curb on him today (with a mullen mouth) and after maybe 5-10 minutes learning could be doing all the stops, rollbacks, hanuch turns, and gaits that I do now.

I'm glad it wasn't you who trained her in it - And yep, if she goes well, then by all means leave her in it. It just means, as I said, that she has done well to have learnt to understand the signals she was getting.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

There was an article in Horse & Rider about bitting. It says to use a bit similar to a Tom Thumb as a transition bit. And yes, many, MANY people use it as a breaking bit. That is what it was originally designed as. Annie moves mostly off my legs and seat, but I still do direct rein when I need it. I'll see if I can find the article about bitting.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I know many people use them as breaking bits - Many people also use them thinking they are a snaffle :s.

Just because it is done, doesn't mean it is right. IMO when a horse is learning what a bit even means, I use the mildest, clearest bit possible. Putting a shanked bit in the mouth of a horse who doesn't even know the basic commands is not something I would ever do, or ever advocate.



> There was an article in Horse & Rider about bitting. It says to use a bit similar to a Tom Thumb as a transition bit.


yup, and many magazines AND tack stores call a tom thumb a snaffle - Both of them are misinformation. Not everything you read is correct - It is up to the indivudal to educate themselves and form an educated opinion.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Omg no, like I said many trainers use it as a transition, so they still get the snaffle mouthpiece and introduce the shanks. That's why I like it for a transition, but I will probably not be using it on Chopper. He'll stay in a snaffle until he needs a change. Annie, however, will not go in a snaffle. She hates them and blows right through them. The little extra oomph of a Tom Thumb makes a world of a difference with her.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

That's fair enough and your opinion - However to transition from a snaffle action to a curb action it mechanically isn't the best bit.

But your mind is set so I won't try to change it.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

It's not a mind set. It's a fact. Like I said, I personally wouldn't use it, but many of the big trainers around here use it. I see you are in Australia, and maybe in my area we just view things differently.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I, also, strongly dislike jointed curbs. The severity of a curb added to the nutcracker action of a single jointed snaffle. I would pick one or the other, personally.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

What is a fact? That people use the tom thumb as a transition bit? Of course it is. There are misguided people everywhere.

A transition bit would have some of the qualities of the old bit and some of the new; Yes?

Well - A tom thumb has NO similarity to a snaffle apart from the fact it can nutcracker up and hit the roof of the mouth. If you use an open direct rein, the shank tips up, actually pushing the horses face in the opposite direction to the aid. If you use a non-open direct rein, the shank tips back, putting pressure on the bars of the mouth, the poll, AND creating the nutcracker action AND twisting the other side of the bit in the mouth - A stop aid plus a whole lot of twisting and poking in the mouth.

^ Those are facts. It doesn't sound like a very clear, or concise transition bit that helps the horse understand a curb - It has no similarity to a snaffle and is simply a more confusing and sometimes harsher version of a mullen mouth curb.

By the time you transition from a snaffle to a curb direct reining should not be needed - The horse should already be proficient at neck reining. If so, then the mouthpiece doesn't matter besides the size of any port - The bit itself won't be used for steering.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

I guess I just trust my grandmother way too much, then. I know how a TT works. I'm not that naive. I have actually tried a TT on Chopper when he was giving me some issues. He tried to eat the shanks. I don't think he'll ever be in a curb bit :lol:


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I wasn't trying to imply you were naive - Just trying to show that while it LOOKS like a good transition bit - The mechanics make it the opposite. There will always be people who love it and people who hate it. 

I ahve a question for you - What is an offset D ring? What is offset?


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

It's kind of like a pinchless O ring with 3" rings










I have one like that, except mine's a sweet iron mouth.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Why is it called 'offset'? Here we just call that a D-ring.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

I think it's because it's not quite a D shape?










That's what I would call a D ring...though it's probably just some gimmick to make us buy it.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

We just call them all D rings, lol. But yeah I guess that must be it, as the rest of it is perfectly symmetrical, lol.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

The horse in my avatar sucks on his. Someone said that means discomfort, but he is very responsive and light in it. I think he just likes the taste of the sweet iron. And he's a bit of an idiot anyway.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Anyone who says a horse "sucking" on a bit means it is uncomfortable is showing a lack of knowledge about horses. Believe me, if they are uncomfortable, they have more effective ways of showing it. Mouthing the bit is, more likely, showing acceptance which is good


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## savvylover112 (Jul 17, 2009)

kassierae said:


> Omg no, like I said many trainers use it as a transition, so they still get the snaffle mouthpiece and introduce the shanks.


Sorry just had to comment on this. The mouthpiece does not make a snaffle there is technically no such thing as a snaffle mouthpiece its the checkpiece of a bit that makes it any type of snaffle, curb, gag and whatever other bits there are out there.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Okay look, I am not an idiot. I would know if my horse was uncomfortable and I'm pretty darn sure my grandmother would, if I didn't. He only does it while standing, and while working he mouths it. My grandmother has been doing this for way longer than many of you have even been alive. He's light, responsive, and I've fiddled with other bits. He hate's them and doesn't even respond to them. I've even tried bitless. That, too was a no go. Must I get a video? Sorry to be mean, but I know my horse, you don't.

And as for the TT bit, it IS known as a jointed curb, hence the snaffle mouthpiece. Anything jointed(IMO) I call a snaffle *mouthpeice*. Not a snaffle bit, a mouthpiece. It's for my own clarity.


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## savvylover112 (Jul 17, 2009)

I wasn't saying anything about your horse at all just thought I would clear that up about bits and such and I was in no way calling you an idiot.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

The top part wasn't directed at you  I know what you were talking about, but I just wanted to clear it up.


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## savvylover112 (Jul 17, 2009)

Oh ok I was like how did she think I was calling her an idiot lol but yeah I just wanted to get it clear lol


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## NevadaRides (Jan 15, 2010)

Tom Thumbs are terrible and not suited for much more than transitioning - if at all.

See Today's Horse - The Trouble with Tom Thumb


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## rider4life (Jan 7, 2010)

NevadaRides said:


> Tom Thumbs are terrible and not suited for much more than transitioning - if at all.
> 
> See Today's Horse - The Trouble with Tom Thumb


Thanks for the link, Nevada--very informative!!


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## dashygirl (Nov 21, 2006)

NevadaRides said:


> Tom Thumbs are terrible and not suited for much more than transitioning - if at all.
> 
> See Today's Horse - The Trouble with Tom Thumb


Great article. There are thousands of people who should read this, some of the people I ride with included!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

dashygirl said:


> Great article. There are thousands of people who should read this, some of the people I ride with included!


 
Don't forget the thousands of horses that go perfectly well in a TT. They just aren't educated enough to know they should be terribly confused. If only they could read this article.


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## abbie (Dec 9, 2009)

well, i didn't mean for my post to turn into a huge arguing session lol. anyway. after trying the curb bit on him a few more times i noticed he takes it much easier than the tom thumb i used at the place where i was taking lessons. he's the most patient and calm horse i know of and he does great with both but if he takes it easier does that mean he prefers it more than the other? i can't tell because he's just so eager to do as you ask of him and i don't think he cares what you do to him as long as your with him.


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## HooverH (May 17, 2008)

Thank you guys for the info about the curb and direct reining...maybe I'm confusing Gunny with the bit I'm using. It is a swivel curb, but the curb may be enough to throw him off. I was planning on trying a full cheek with him this year, but now I'm definitely going to it if he likes it. He does neck, but it's when he wants to, and sometimes I have remind him with a plow rein.

I would interpret your horse being more eager to take one bit over the other as a sign of preference, but I could be wrong. I always assumed Hoover loved his hackamore because he turned his nose towards me when I held it out and stood still for having it put on.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Sometimes I get tired of defending the tom thumb. But if I could only own one bit, it would be a tom thumb or a variation of it. 

I can ride any horse I have ever owned in a tom thumb. I cannot say the same about a snaffle or a regular curb. If a horse hates the tom thumb, it is probably because the rider is hanging onto their mouth. 

Honestly, if I could only own one bit, it would be the one. Maybe it's a western v.s english thing. I really don't know. But I ride western and I can ride just about anything in a tom thumb and have them be comfortable and responsive.

No one can convince me it is an evil bit because I have used it since I started riding and have always had great luck with it. 

I actually dislike regular snaffles because it encourages horses to put their heads up instead of breaking at the poll. 

I have had okay results with normal curbs, but some horses like them better than others.

I can ride a tom thumb with one hand or *gasp* even two. The only reason I can think of that people don't have good luck with it is maybe they are "riding the brakes," so to speak. It is more of a finesse bit, not a pull on 'em bit. 

Okay, I've said my peace. I just think it's a shame everyone is slamming it, when I bet a lot of folks just believe what they read on the internet and have never actually used it. I ride with my fingertips. If the horse trips I loose my reins, that is how loose I ride. The tom thumb (and it's variations) give me finesse. I never have to pull unless I am using a normal snaffle. It's like having power steering and power brakes.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Here is an example of a bit I would like to own and use. 

http://rawhideandroo.homestead.com/cp214.jpg

And I have one like this that I really like. This one is considered an Argentine snaffle because you could use two set of reins if you wanted to. Maybe the name "tom thumb" has a bad rap. Maybe we should call them Argentine snaffles or shank snaffles instead. 

http://www.kyhorse.com/store/tack/reinsman/402.jpg


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

letsgetserious said:


> If you are neck reining the tom thumb is fine, but I would suggest to switch to the curb if you direct rein.


 
Have you guys ever tried direct reining in a curb?? For that matter what does a curb mean?? What is a tom thumb?? Try direct reining in a tom thumb???
I think alot are confused as to what is a curb, what is a tom thumb and what is a snaffle??
Unless you have tried a bunch of different bits you don't really know how they feel.
My guys have been very happy in a tom thumb and while they neck rein fine I also direct rein 50% of the time.
Like Kevin suggested. All the faults of a bit need to be pointed out to the horse, he is too dumb to figure it out for himself.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Maybe we should call them Argentine snaffles or shank snaffles instead.


That would be incorrect as there is nothing snaffle about them - they are broken muthed curbs, or jointed curbs.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

trailhorserider said:


> Sometimes I get tired of defending the tom thumb. But if I could only own one bit, it would be a tom thumb or a variation of it.
> 
> I can ride any horse I have ever owned in a tom thumb. I cannot say the same about a snaffle or a regular curb. If a horse hates the tom thumb, it is probably because the rider is hanging onto their mouth.
> 
> ...


Put me down as another one. If I could use only one bit it would be a tom thumb. My horses seem to like it. I too feel a snaffle makes for a high header horse and after a while I ditch the snaffle.
Right now my favorite bit is a Billy allen mouthed pelham.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

I've said this before, I'll say it again. Do what works for your horse. If what your using isn't working then do some research and look for something that will. 
There are several good books out there on bits. I just finished Bob and Dale Mylers A Whole Bit Better and have started Ed Connell's Reinsman of the West Bridles and Bits. 
The Myler book is very basic on how the bit affects the mouth and head. Its a very informative book even if you don't use Myler bits. I think both can be bought on Amazon or Ebay. 
Educate yourself on what your bit is doing is my best advice.


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