# Dressage vs Endurance & Should I buy this horse?



## farahmay (Sep 2, 2013)

Okay I have two questions. Some background on me first, I'm 19, started riding in 2012, stopped after two months. Then 2014 i started again in a very commercialized environment, 100 horses, 20 stable hands, the students just jump on the horse, ride their group lesson, jump off and go home. The horses were way too wired up, untrained, there was someone falling off at least once every single lesson. Basically I was never taught to ride correctly, i was self taught in a way, because it was 'okay everybody trot' and we trot in circles until the lesson is over, me learning by reading online and watching videos of how it should be done.

Anyway, in August I started riding again after 7 months off, at a new barn. It is amazing, I'm a lot more stable in the saddle now than I ever was, however my trainer is now asking me which direction I want to go in. I love endurance so much, I've never competed but I've ridden parts of the course, and watched a competition, but I know dressage is very useful for the horse's flexibility and manners. We do dressage lessons every week, and I'm not sure what to think of it, I guess I just prefer riding out of the arena because I don't have to be so precise, but is this bad for me as a rider? Do you believe every rider should do dressage, my instructor thinks so. 

Another question, 2 months ago a stallion came to our barn to be gelded, that hasn't happened yet but in the meantime he started with training, and was a very quick learner. I ride him now, he's a thoroughbred, 175cm, I think he's about 8 or 9. Anyway I fell in love, he's a lot bigger than any horse I've ever ridden and I was a little afraid at the start him being a stallion, just broken in, relatively young and huge, but he's very willing and calm. Now I want to ask, do you think it's too early for me to buy him? Financially and barn wise everything is okay, my instructor would continue working with him, but is it too early for me to think about buying this horse because I haven't chosen what I want to do yet, and also not being as experienced as I could be? (I do walk trot canter, and jump a little)


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

There are a lot of things to think about. First, you don't know what direction you want to go right now. Secondly, If you decide what direction, how far do you want to go with it ? Are you the type of person that can buy a horse and then sell him when you want to go further than the horse can? A thoroughbred would not be my first choice for a dressage mount or an endurance mount. He would be able to do either but not necessarily be competitive in the higher levels. Thirdly, how much are you in love with this horse? Are you willing to have him and be satisfied with how much he can or can't do?

As far as doing dressage, you either like it or you don't. I would think that learning dressage would help even if you do a different discipline.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I might add that I'm not one of those people that think all stallions are fire breathing, sperm spewing, dragons constantly on the prowl. But if you did buy him, it would be a lot easier on you to accommodate his living conditions if he were gelded.


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## MrsKD14 (Dec 11, 2015)

Regardless of what you decide about the horse, I think getting a strong understanding of dressage can benefit any horse and rider. My previous endurance horse and I went through some basic dressage and i felt like it gave me a stronger seat and helped her with listening and flexibility. 

I do agree with above though, to get him gelded. A lot of barns don't take stallions and you never know what can happen and you may need to move. 

Following along to see how it turns out! 


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"Do you believe every rider should do dressage, my instructor thinks so."

No. 

I'm a self taught rider. Started by learning a forward seat/english saddle, switched to an Australian-style saddle because of a very spooky horse and riding in the desert, ended up riding western...although often with a forward seat.

VS Littauer was my favorite author on riding. He said there were only two tests to a rider's position:

Do you move in fluid balance with your horse?

Does your position allow you to control your horse?​ 
Dressage is designed for what Littauer called "centered balance" versus the forward seat's "forward balance". 

In a forward seat, the rider shift's his weight forward to match the horse's center of gravity. In a dressage seat, the horse is taught to shift its balance to the rear to match the rider's center of gravity.

In a western seat, one often rides behind the horse's balance, which is more secure for some things and takes advantage of how a western saddle is designed to distribute weight. In practice, most western riders will instinctively move their balance forward or back, depending on what they are doing at the moment.

ALL horses need flexibility and manners, but few western horses are taught dressage or put "on the bit" to get there. They are taught flexibility by doing lots of turns, climbing hills, gait transitions, etc, and they are taught manners by not accepting bad manners. The leg position desired by dressage has a lot to do with the constant cues needed for upper level dressage, but that doesn't apply to trail riding - or endurance.

That doesn't mean dressage training is bad. The best single piece of advice I found about a bolting horse came in a book on dressage. Many of the exercises done for dressage are useful for working balance, just as a barrel racer gave me some excellent advice on teaching a horse how to turn. As a form of cross-training, dressage can help a trail horse, just as trail riding can be a useful thing for a dressage horse to do. I asked some questions a few months back on the dressage sub-forum about basic training for a horse who was stiff and unbalanced, and I got a lot of good advice and recommendations for some good books, covering how to start a horse.

But I've known some darn good riders who have never sat in an English saddle, or even taken a lesson. And if your long term goal is to ride a horse as efficiently as possible, using long, low strides, then it seems to me that dressage is best thought of as cross-training rather than primary training.




















"Common Sense Horsemanship" by VS Littauer​
I will say, though, that I LOVE this guy's "dressage seat":








​


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I have a friend who does endurance and dressage with her horses so no reason why you can't do both with whatever horse you eventually buy
The quietest horse I ever came across in the riding schools I worked in was a stallion, he competed in show jumping to quite a high level but could be trusted with complete beginners.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Do you mean endurance or eventing? Because there are no "courses" and no dressage phase in endurance. That's eventing (cross country, stadium jumping, and dressage).

No, not all stallions are fire-breathing dragons. However, I would NOT recommend a green horse for a green rider (which is what you are). Especially not a green thoroughbred. Think of it this way. Say you speak Spanish, but very little English. Then, you start working with someone who speaks even less English, but their original language is Chinese. You are expected to teach this person English, even though you barely speak it yourself and you don't have even an origin language in common. You're both going to become frustrated, miscommunications are going to be rampant, and neither of you will learn English properly. Same concept applies to a green rider trying to work with a green horse. Especially in something like eventing, where there's a lot that can go wrong. If neither of you know what you're doing, chances for disaster are multiplied.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Dressage is a great start for everything, the skill to be able to move your horse wherever you want is very useful on the trail, and basic dressage will give you that, so I would always start there. 

As to the stallion, it isn't his status as stallion that worries me so much as his greenness, I would not recommend him too you. A well broke, been there done that horse would be a better place to start


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## MaximasMommy (Sep 21, 2013)

I bought too much horse for myself, but it was because I not only LOVED him... he was a great price, and I knew that both of us had decades to figure out how to work together in harmony. I couldn't ride him for six months. He was in training while I was taking 3 lessons a week. Years later, we are looking forward to our debut show season! As long as you have the resources and are surrounded by experienced people to guide both of you every step of the way, there is no reason why you can't buy a horse that you love! 

Your instructor is probably asking you to choose a direction because they are being paid to teach you. Once you learn enough and it's time to move on, they have to know what to teach you next! I was worried that my instructor would be upset when I took time off from lessons so I could just come out and relax and enjoy my horse, but she was REALLY supportive of it! And now I am looking into doing competitive trail riding alongside dressage, and she is supportive of that too! 

There is no law about what you have to do with your horse. If you want to buy a 3 million dollar grand prix blah blah horse and just take it out on hacks, YOU CAN DO THAT! And the horse will probably love it! 

At some point I realized that a big part of horsemanship is going with my gut and heart (and brain, but yea) and finding harmony with my horse. Horses are so amazing and they can teach you so much. If you have a special bond with this horse I don't see why you should pass up the opportunity to take him into your care and give him a forever home. In exchange he will take you under his tutelage and teach you how to be a better rider, person, and soul. 

Also you can geld him once he is yours. Since he is as calm as you say now, he probably will transition to being a calm gelding too.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

might I ask where you are riding? it sounds unusual to put a near beginner on a large stallion. at least, unusual for what I am used to.

my opinion is that you do not need to ride dressage first if your heart is in endurance riding. not sure if there is really any crossover there. just having a good seat, a light seat, and good balance is what you need for endurance riding. basically, stay out of your horse's way, and let him do his job.


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## MrsKD14 (Dec 11, 2015)

OP, I think you are getting some great advice here. I'm still riding my first horse. He was a bit much but I had recourses and help there if I needed it. I know I didn't really comment on your choice of horse earlier, but I'm laying in the paddock with mine right now and couldn't help but pop over. My guy is in his late teens now, and you couldn't buy him from me for anything. 

He's my heart horse. 

But I would definitely geld him. 


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

A lot of endurance riders I know take dressage lessons. They are not looking to ride a grand prix test, but instead have a horse that is educated to leg and seat aids and can use itself well. Nobody is going to ride miles and miles with their horse on the bit, but boy let me tell you being able to sit down and close your hand on the rein and get a quiet half-halt is a beautiful thing on trail! Also mighty nice to have a horse that quietly bends in response to soft leg cues so you can navigate through twisty wooded trails.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

phantomhorse13 said:


> A lot of endurance riders I know take dressage lessons. They are not looking to ride a grand prix test, but instead have a horse that is educated to leg and seat aids and can use itself well. Nobody is going to ride miles and miles with their horse on the bit, but boy let me tell you being able to sit down and close your hand on the rein and get a quiet half-halt is a beautiful thing on trail! Also mighty nice to have a horse that quietly bends in response to soft leg cues so you can navigate through twisty wooded trails.


Especially leg cues when coming up on a rider going slower that you. You cry out, "on your left", and yield your horse to the left to go around the slower rider.

Or leg cues when you need to drop reins so you can check a map/GPS? Or need your hands to open saddle bags to retrieve a bottle of water?

Why use the reins when one can use your leg?

Basic dressage is helpful for any horse and any rider. You just have to decide what you want to do beyond ' basic' anything.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Leg cues are pretty universal. A responsive horse is a universal goal. Half-halts...not so much, since most of the western riding world has never given one. The question posed wasn't, "Is dressage training harmful?" but* "Do you believe every rider should do dressage*?" There is no reason why EVERY RIDER should do dressage. 

Many millions ride their entire lives without it. One can easily have a soft, responsive horse with slack reins. The principles of dressage - what makes it dressage and not a forward seat or western - are rooted in the desire for sustained collected gaits. Horses are put "on the bit", not to teach them to be responsive or controlled, but to prepare them to learn high collection. The dressage seat is optimized for a highly collected gait, which in turn is a mechanically inefficient gait for covering ground. Those are not something "every rider" needs to learn.

If someone asked, "Can a western rider ride endurance?", would the answer be, "Not until they study dressage first"? Can I cue my horse to pass another horse on a trail without first studying dressage, and without taking slack out of the reins? Hint: yes.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

You do as you so wish. It worked for me . 

I was crummy self taught rider and didn't know a half halt from a half pass. Despite that, I could stick a horse. I wanted finesse and knowledge. Tis why I started dressage lessons. I needed to know WHAT the terms meant and how to apply correctly.

So MY OPINION, is dressage can help every rider and horse. It certainly will not hurt any horse or rider.

I and the little grey Arab I have the privilege of owning, do both, and do both nicely. This year it is cow work we will be working on versus dressage. I have enough ribbons.

Basically it is up to rider in what they wish to try.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

bsms said:


> Half-halts...not so much, since most of the western riding world has never given one.


Actually, one of the most responsive to half halt horses I have ever ridden was a friend's reining/western dressage mare. To ask for a half halt, you simply breathed out and put some tension in the hand holding the reins (which were draped about to her knees). 

When I said I closed my hand on the rein to ask my horse to half halt, I meant that literally.. I normally ride with a loose grip on a loose rein and my version of half halt is to raise my shoulders slightly (still in a forward type seat) and close my hand on the reins. No contact with the horse's mouth (or nose in my case, as all ours go in s-hacks) is necessary.

Remember that dressage is "training." Just what the end goal of that training is depends wholly on the rider.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Does every rider need to know how to put a horse "on the bit"? Would every horse benefit from being ridden "on the bit"? Can someone teach a horse to be well balanced and responsive without ever taking a dressage lesson?

From post #1: "_I know dressage is very useful for the horse's flexibility and manners. We do dressage lessons every week, and I'm not sure what to think of it, I guess I just prefer riding out of the arena because I don't have to be so precise, but is this bad for me as a rider? Do you believe every rider should do dressage, my instructor thinks so._" - underlining mine.

If someone stops taking dressage lessons and spends most of their time riding trails and outside the arena, will it result in their being a bad rider? Is the "precision" of riding dressage essential to riding a soft, responsive, well balanced and eager horse, or can one learn it another way?

That is how I would rephrase the OP's question.

Let's take it further: If someone is a self-taught rider, does that mean they will ride poorly? Do people NEED lessons - are they essential - to riding a well balanced and responsive horse? Or can one learn it on their own - from the horse?

And since I can't think of anyone I know who has had more than a few months of formal lessons, I guess I'll answer "Yes". The fundamental of good riding - staying in fluid balance and rhythm with the horse - is something that can be taught BY the horse IF the rider is willing to listen.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Half halts:"A half-halt is used to get a horse's attention, and to ask him to balance. You use a half-halt when you are about to ask the horse to do something: to go from a trot to a canter, to make a turn, speed up or slow down without changing gaits, or most anything.

The half-halt itself is not a request for a change of pace or direction. When you half-halt, you should not slow down, speed up, or make a transition; you keep going at the same gait and same pace you were going before. You just want the horse to be listening for you to ask him to speed up, slow down, transition, etc."

Lorien Stable - What is a Half-Halt, and How is it Used?​I've never consciously given a half-halt. If I am uncertain about what I want to do next, I'll typically shift my weight some to the rear, take a little slack out of the reins to keep my options open until I decide. Once I decide, I simply cue the horse. From a western perspective, not a dressage perspective, it is my job to tell the horse what I want him to do next. I do not tell him how to balance himself. I expect him to figure it out. His job is to rebalance if needed and do it. I do not cue a horse often, but I expect him to be listening if and when I do give a cue.

That would not work well if we were being judged on subtlety by a watching judge. But if I want to pass someone on a trail, I don't give a half-halt to say "Listen up" and then cue a move to the side with an increase in speed. I simply move my hand over a little, nudge a little with my leg, and either balance more forward or more back, depending on if I need the horse to go faster or to slow its overtake. If the horse may try to pass too fast, I'll rotate my wrist a few times to say, "and don't do it too fast".

Dressage is not "training". That is the French meaning of the word, but we have an English word for training: training. Dressage implies training toward the goal of being ridden in a dressage competition, or in a way that would work in a dressage competition. The dressage training scale is not a universal training scale. A book on dressage is not the same as a book on western riding. Someone who advertises dressage lessons is not planning on teaching barrel racing. The OP is not asking about dressage lessons and attaching the meaning "any training".

If the OP is frustrated with her dressage lessons, then her frustration with them may carry over to her horse. Take a break, get out and go ride. If you decide you are not happy with your riding progress, take some more lessons. Maybe jump lessons. Maybe dressage. Heck, maybe reining. But if you feel frustrated and tense by your lessons, then it is time for a change. Riding should be fun. It involves work as well, but the work ought to be fun. An unhappy rider is not likely to produce a happy horse.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

phantomhorse13 said:


> Remember that dressage is "training." Just what the end goal of that training is depends wholly on the rider.


Exactly, very well put, good BASIC dressage principles are useful across all disciplines, my barn is very cosmopolitan, we have Western and English, and everyone has different interests but ALL take dressage lessons at least occasionally.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I ride in a Bosal except in dressage tests. I put 552 miles on my Arab last year on the bosal. So on the bit, for me, lasts five minutes.

I was a self taught rider and darn good. I also believe riding and becoming good is an individual journey that each rider must travel their way, in their own time. What worked for me and my riding issues, may not work for any other person.

As I said GOOD dressage instruction works as a basic for any riding discipline. Do it in a bosal or bit, English or western saddle, it does not matter as long as it is GOOD instruction.


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## farahmay (Sep 2, 2013)

_"If the OP is frustrated with her dressage lessons, then her frustration with them may carry over to her horse. Take a break, get out and go ride."_

This is what I was getting at, I'm being told they'll benefit me and the horse but it does frustrate me, and I would much rather just go out and ride.

No not eventing, by 'course' i meant the endurance trail (Still don't know if that's the right term english isn't my native language haha) We have the option to do dressage or endurance trainings, and the competitions are separate.

I don't plan to do any major competing just local competitions, and yeah I guess I could do both. 

He is definitely getting gelded we're just waiting for the metres of snow to disappear, and I have the financial side of things down for him to work with my instructor every day and myself, it's a small barn, 10 horses, so him and me being green isn't that big of an issue since I do lessons on her other horses too and he's constantly under training, we are never left alone, and if I do buy him I don't plan on riding him alone either.

Thank you everyone, this has given me lots to think about, as for dressage, I think I'll take a break from the lessons and see how that goes.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

You would be shocked at the horrible body positions that develop when riding long distances with no one to correct you!! You get tired, a little pain sets into a certain spot, you compensate with a little lean or twist, the muscle memory develops, and suddenly, you are kind of hanging off of the side of the horse with you trying to correct his saddle FIT!!

Keep doing the lessons in addition to the distance....the horse will thank you!


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

I think of dressage as like alot like math.

Most people say as an adult you never use it but they fail to realize how important math is for brain training. Math is one of those universal disciplines that even if you don't go into advanced mathematics will help you organize, structure, and recognize structure in the books you read, when you write, draw faster conclusions and problem solve more effectively etc. Why? Because math is pure logic and it has as specific structure and rules you have to learn/understand. Even if you're not a mathematician or an engineer or work with computers, math is still an important building block in wiring and training your brain how to think.

Same with dressage do you HAVE to learn it? No but you should. When I was younger I HATED dressage because it was boring and I didn't really understand it. I just wanted to jump fences and gallop cross country or go on a trail ride (I grew up on the west coast so there were some AMAZING trails) because I hated that structure and discipline and I also didn't have a good enough coach to make me see the value in it. I still did it as a "necessary evil" because I was an eventer and I had to. Eventually I actually switched to dressage with EVERY intention of going back into eventing (which never happened) because I wanted to clean up at events. Years later I went over a 3ft courses in a lesson and it was SO much easier for me, despite it being years since I jumped. My release, my timing, my distances and rhythm were all spot on (not every second) but I was amazed how much better I rode because dressage makes you pay attention and recognize the details you would otherwise neglect. And yes having a good instructor makes a difference because again they recognize things and point things out to you that you would never know or recognize by yourself. It's all about the details.

Dressage is all about communication, it isn't just about suppling a horse or getting flexibility or riding on the bit. The horse is on the bit because it is actively working into a contact, maintained by the riders understanding of how to ride within a connection and ride the horse's body. The horse is meeting that contact based on where the body is telling it to be because that is balance. You half halt to influence the balance and organization. It's not about the head but the body and whole horse. I think that underlying understanding of the horse and the communication between horse and rider is what makes dressage so universal and applicable, regardless of discipline. it's about detailed riding and paying attention to the stuff you wouldn't. And I agree dressage SUCKS in the beginning, being ADHD I had no attention span. I was like do I have to trot one more circle? Now I think having ADHD is almost a good thing as a dressage rider because there is so much going on moment to moment I keep focused and it makes me pay attention and allows me to ride the horses that need total focus to ride well. The more you know about it, the more you are aware of and the more you have to focus on.

And I have ridden reining horses, I have ridden cutting horses, I have actually ridden barrels, etc because a good friend of mine does reining, cutting and did barrels (she had a QH ranch). I actually helped her with her reining horse because my background is in dressage and those were pretty amazing, cool horses. I loved her horses, smart as whips, they learned so fast and were SO ridable. And actually she'd take dressage lessons for her horses.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hmmm...surprising few cowboys on ranches take dressage lessons on the side. They may cover 20-50 miles in a day in rough country. And they don't tend to end up hanging off the side of the horse.

Nor is a dressage seat optimized for covering distances. For example: It teaches ("The Dressage Formula by Erik Herbermann) a straight, vertical line from ear - shoulder - hip - heel. That IS good for a collected gait. It is NOT good for going faster, because the horse needs to shift his balance forward...and the rider should be in fluid balance with his horse.

It teaches the foot should be parallel to the horse's body - a position that creates tension in the legs of many riders, and it is not optimum for balance. There is a reason why people like George Morris and the US Cavalry teach a foot angled out at 10-45 degrees, depending on the rider and the horse's conformation.

"_The fists must be held vertically, the thumbs uppermost. This is an extremely important requirement.._." Ummm...maybe for a dressage competition. But I don't ride with "fists", and my hands are angled to match my horse's withers - per the US Cavalry manual and Littauer and Morris. Assuming, of course, I'm using two hands.

I actually really liked Herbermann's book and got some good ideas from it on how to work with Bandit...but I accept it as a type of cross-training, and not authoritative for how I must ride. It is, after all, "The Dressage Formula", not "The Trail Riding Formula" (which would be a contradiction in terms). Nor is it "The Endurance Formula".

Any GOOD instruction will help, since helping defines "good". Having another set of eyes watching a person ride and giving advice can often help because someone on the ground can see things we don't realize are happening while we ride. Since I have no instructor, I like to get my wife to take pictures of a ride sometimes. I've learned a lot from examining the photos because how I think I ride and how I actually ride are two different things.

But there is also a lot to be said for just going out and having fun with your horse. A 3 hour ride can teach you things a 45 minute ride cannot. Riding in the open teaches things you cannot learn in an arena.

In "Riding Logic", W. Museler wrote (1933, my edition is the 1983 edition): "_...not leaving it to the instructor to discover all the problems. Feeling will only be learned by the person who uses his brain and interprets what he feels. Applying this, the rider himself is the best judge of whether he has learned to 'go with the horse's movements', for he should feel himself bumping about in the saddle and can form a judgment as tho whether he can remedy it_." Underlining in the text.

Someone who cares about the horse and observes the horse can learn a lot about riding from the horse. I'm not saying lessons are bad, although bad instruction is far worse than no instruction. But there is also a time for going out and riding, and discovering riding as a two way interaction between horse and rider.

I reject the idea that one "should" learn dressage, unless one wants to compete IN dressage. I base that on knowing a lot of people who never had ANY lessons, yet ride well - in balance with their horse and in two-way communication with their horse. Dressage is just one small section of horse riding, not the end all of it!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

OP, I still wouldn't get a green horse, even with a trainer.

I bought my gelding as a 2yo basically unhandled stud colt. He was gelded a couple of months later, I did all his groundwork, then my old BO broke him to saddle with the help of one of my friends who is also a trainer. I am, in the saddle, very green. I know the principles and I've ridden close to two dozen different horses, but they've all been broke trail horses. I cannot begin to tell you the amount of frustration I've had with my gelding, who is quiet, willing, and generally eager to please. He tries his heart out for me, but there are simply things that both of us don't know and I am unsure how to teach. Having a horse is supposed to be relaxing and fun, right? Trust me, it's not when you're constantly frustrated.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Bsms....cowboys DO ride a LOT...they are not suburban living people who ride a few hours a week....and who in the heck knows how crooked they are? Their horses are not being vet checked every 12 miles or so, and they probably don't fret about a few dry spots under saddle like we do. 

Eyes on the ground, dressage or not, can help prevent these problems.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

farahmay said:


> _"If the OP is frustrated with her dressage lessons, then her frustration with them may carry over to her horse. Take a break, get out and go ride."_
> 
> This is what I was getting at, I'm being told they'll benefit me and the horse but it does frustrate me, and I would much rather just go out and ride.
> 
> ...


As far as I can tell you're somewhere in Europe and generally speaking correctly trained European horses all start out being schooled in what could be (and what I think you're seeing it as) low level dressage. It's usually done riding in a GP seat at posting trot and really just instilling good basic training into a young horse before moving on to whatever its going to do in the future - which could be anything including 'just a trail horse'
As soon as anyone mentions dressage there will be some that interpret that as a horse doing moves that involve a high level of collection, piaffe and passage and not simply one that's responsive to your cues and knows how to walk, trot, canter and whoa, work in contact and understand some lateral work - being able to step sideways and turn on the forehand is very useful for an endurance horse on narrow tracks
It sounds to me as if this horse is at a barn that believes in a horse having a good foundation in its training before heading out for the hills and 'just winging it'


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

jaydee said:


> As soon as anyone mentions dressage there will be some that interpret that as a horse doing moves that involve a high level of collection, piaffe and passage and not simply one that's responsive to your cues and knows how to walk, trot, canter and whoa, work in contact and understand some lateral work - being able to step sideways and turn on the forehand is very useful for an endurance horse on narrow tracks


Oh so true, but there are some who seem to be so set against the very notion of 'dressage' that they struggle to understand that basic dressage IS the foundation for so many things....

I have heard it said by more than one trainer that it is a lot easier converting a dressage rider to western, because they have a decent independent seat, and a lot of the skills that they need already in place.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Do what you want, but explore Dressage. I think you will find many good things.
I have noticed that Many people that do Dressage do NOT "send their horse to the gym", so to speak. They ask their horses to do physically demanding moves and their horses are too out of shape to do them.
If you train your horse for endurance and compete endurance, in a year you will have a horse in very good condition. 
Dressage came about from the European Military schools. They trained obedience and flexibility from their mounts, who were expected to carry them everywhere during a war, which means, of course, long distance riding. The collection exercises were designed to get the horse gymnastic, and to carry himself correctly, so that the rider wasn't wearing out his front legs. The "Airs Above the Ground" were taught to the horse to make him into a weapon on the battlefield. 
Everything had a purpose.
Just some FYI, and your trainer IS thinking about your horse.
Legendary White Stallions ~ Airs Above the Ground: Classical Dressage Movements of the Lipizzaner Stallions | Nature | PBS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84Ii_Xdk6jI
When I was breaking my OTTB gelding into Civil War Reenacting, I was sitting facing forward with the Cumberland Guard, waiting for the battle, the fife and drum corp started up, and my horse performed a perfect Capriole, jumping up and kicking out backwards. He could have killed someone, which is what this maneuver was designed to do.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

greentree said:


> Bsms....cowboys DO ride a LOT...they are not suburban living people who ride a few hours a week....and who in the heck knows how crooked they are? Their horses are not being vet checked every 12 miles or so, and they probably don't fret about a few dry spots under saddle like we do.
> 
> Eyes on the ground, dressage or not, can help prevent these problems.


I rode a lot of ex-ranch horses when I was a teenager and almost all of them had white spots on their withers. I've had several cowboys and learned-from-cowboys tell me they believe fitting a saddle to a horse is a lot of nonsense. 

Cowboys get things done but their horses are mostly seen as livestock-cum-transportation and are expected to be stoic about pain like their riders. One of the reasons cowboys don't like hot horses.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> Oh so true, but there are some who seem to be so set against the very notion of 'dressage' that they struggle to understand that basic dressage IS the foundation for so many things...


I do not object to dressage. I object to the notion that dressage is the end all of riding, and that EVERY RIDER - to use the words of the OP's instructor - needs to study dressage.

Basic dressage is NOT the foundation. If it were the foundation, all non-dressage riders would have no foundation...which is ridiculous. The idea that ALL RIDERS need to study dressage, or even that ALL RIDERS need to take lessons, flies in the face of the real world, where many good riders have never had a lesson, let alone studied dressage.

"and who in the heck knows how crooked they are? Their horses are not being vet checked every 12 miles or so, and they probably don't fret about a few dry spots under saddle like we do."

Some do, some don't. Trooper came here from a good ranch where he was ridden properly, but after being lent to a ranch where he was used brutally. He still has scars on his sides from being spurred bloody, and he has white spots on either side of the withers where he was used for roping cattle in a poor fitting saddle:








​ 
HOWEVER, there are crappy riders everywhere, including dressage. I've seen dressage riders trying to ride "dressage", and doing it so poorly that I'd pull them off and beat them if it was my horse! Rollkur doesn't exactly impress me either - but I don't paint all dressage riders with the same brush!

Dressage is the only horse sport whose adherents think they are the end-all of riding. It is the only horse sport whose adherents claim EVERYONE needs to train in it, or that it teaches universal principles. To do so, they must close their eyes to the rest of the riding world, where people do not ride with fists on the reins, or where slack reins are fine, or where heels can be ahead of the hip or toes can be pointed out 20-30 degrees. They have to ignore the many horses who are responsive and well balanced without being "on the bit".

There is nothing wrong with taking dressage lessons. There is nothing wrong with taking lessons in jumping, reining, or barrel racing. But there is also nothing essential - as in "must be done by EVERY RIDER" - in taking lessons in jumping, reining, barrel racing, roping, dressage or any other equine sport. They are all subsets of riding, not the perfection of it.

And yes, you CAN learn to ride and ride well without lessons. There are many self-taught riders on this forum. If anyone wants to explain why riding with one's FISTS in the vertical is critical to good riding, and this riding sucks:








​ 
Have at it! Why is it wrong for me to cue my horse with my pinkie finger, and for her (or him) to respond to it? Why would I NEED to take the slack out, or ride with two hands? What makes "dressage" right and all other riding wrong?

There are many ways to ride a horse well. How to do it is between the horse and the rider. There is no one answer that fits all riders and all horses.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Very basic dressage training, as I understand it, is just a system of refining your sense of balance, awareness of the horse's movements and carriage, and improving your sensitivity to applying aids. 

Why people say it is universally useful is because it focuses all your attention on how to do that, not on any secondary goal like looking all prancy or all pokey, sliding to a stop and whirling around, jumping over things, etc. 

More advanced and more competitive dressage, in my view, can be just as exaggerated and even abusive as any of the other horse sports. And it can adhere to as silly a set of rigid rules. 

But I find my own lessons in beginner dressage to be very helpful for me, in terms of improving my skills broadly. All I am going to be doing is trail riding.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The question the OP asked is simple: "Do you believe every rider should do dressage"?

Not, "Can dressage lessons be a good introduction to riding?". Not "Can lots of people learn something while taking dressage lessons?". But does EVERY RIDER need to take dressage lessons in order to become a good rider, or will trail riding and not taking dressage lessons be "bad for me as a rider".

If someone wants to take basic dressage lessons to learn basic riding...fine. If they want to take basic jump lessons to learn basic riding....fine. If they want to take basic western riding lessons to learn basic riding...fine.

But none of those is a REQUIREMENT. Lessons are not a requirement. Good lessons will help, but even good lessons can burn a person out. And bad lessons - which are pretty common where I live - are worse than no lessons. It is not inherently harmful to stop taking lessons and focus for a while on trail riding.


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## MrsKD14 (Dec 11, 2015)

This thread had been an eye opener for me or maybe I have a more European concept or however an above poster said it. I thought that basic dressage was learning to move in balance and helping the horse do the same? My understanding of lower level dressage fit in with what jaydee said 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

bsms said:


> The question the OP asked is simple: "Do you believe every rider should do dressage"?
> 
> Not, "Can dressage lessons be a good introduction to riding?". Not "Can lots of people learn something while taking dressage lessons?". But does EVERY RIDER need to take dressage lessons in order to become a good rider, or will trail riding and not taking dressage lessons be "bad for me as a rider".
> 
> ...


The only requirement for learning to ride a horse is a horse. All else is optional.

I have been surprised how much emphasis these days is put on lessons and how little on just riding. You learn things just tacking up and going out with your horse alone for a few hours every day that you will never get from years of lessons. 

So, I agree with bsms there. Lessons from a truly excellent teacher, however, are priceless. No matter what the discipline.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Avna said:


> I have been surprised how much emphasis these days is put on lessons and how little on just riding. You learn things just tacking up and going out with your horse alone for a few hours every day that you will never get from years of lessons.


Well in my case doing just that turned me into a rider that could stick on well, but was a totally carp rider.......if that is what you want then great....didn't work for me. Each to their own, but I know that I am a far better rider for taking up dressage in my 50's, I just wish I had done it years ago, rather than setting my mind against it.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

In the US there is a LOT of competitiveness between the efficacy of different styles of riding and what produces the best horse.
It is very confusing to the novice and sometimes very good advice is taken as "I am smarter about my training than you are." Thus the rubs and hurt feelings.
Where do I stand?
I'm interested in the result.
If I see a horse in a Western saddle, standing Ground Tied and patiently waiting, I want to ask the owner how they did it.
If I see a horse who will passage and then quietly walk by me on the trails, I want to ask the owner how they did it.
If I see a horse in a show ring spooking and tossing his head, I want to ask the rider why they didn't prepare their horse, not matter WHAT the discipline is.
The horse doesn't care about the style of training as long as he is treated fairly.
The horse doesn't care about the style of saddle, as long as it doesn't hurt him.
The horse doesn't care about the bit, as long as it doesn't hurt and the rider has a proper feel of his mouth.
I have not been highly exposed to the abuse industry, but I've read about incidents and I've watched videos of awful abuse, and I've seen the Dressage arena with abusers aboard their horses, or at least people who don't know what they are doing.
Dressage is a term bandied about like, "Do you dance? Well, of course, Ballet!"
Lots of different kinds of dancing.
Lots of different kinds of horse training.
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!
Nobody is better than anybody else just because they say they are training a certain way.
The PROOF is always in the horse! Horses do NOT lie. If you can't tell, than, as a horse OWNER, it is up to you to LEARN to read a horse and his body language!
There are many things that the non-Dressage world could learn FROM the Dressage world. We don't use our horses every day anymore, so they are relegated to sport for probably 95% of them in the Western world. It is very much like gardening. 
We don't know how much we don't know, and when we realize how much we don't know, we are amazed that we know anything at all.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I seriously don't think that the OP is going to be doing anything remotely like the sort of dressage people are used to seeing at things like the Olympics - or at least not for a long time
At the stage she and this green horse are at she's just going to be learning how to ride European/English style and that will be useful for whatever she wants to do in the future
If a rider can't control their horse and ride it safely independent of other horses then they're really putting themselves and their horse at risk if they go outside into the 'real world'. 
All these low level 'dressage' lessons do is prepare you for what comes next


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## farahmay (Sep 2, 2013)

Yep, low level, very low level in fact, it's just basic tests which include the walk trot and canter with 20m circles, 10m circles, change of hand, and a couple of other things I do not know the name of in english. I ride in Europe, and yes 99% of riding schools here see this low level dressage as a base, but I find it extremely boring and quite a nuisance to learn the tests off by heart.

But i've got a different view now, I guess since I'm not planning to do anything huge yet, maybe they will benefit me in the sense that I'll be a lot more precise with my horse, my commands, and my seat. This will all benefit me on the trails. 

As for buying the horse goes, I spoke to my mum and she's said we should put it off for at least a year to see what happens with him and me.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

bsms said:


> Hmmm...surprising few cowboys on ranches take dressage lessons on the side. They may cover 20-50 miles in a day in rough country. And they don't tend to end up hanging off the side of the horse.
> 
> Nor is a dressage seat optimized for covering distances. For example: It teaches ("The Dressage Formula by Erik Herbermann) a straight, vertical line from ear - shoulder - hip - heel. That IS good for a collected gait. It is NOT good for going faster, because the horse needs to shift his balance forward...and the rider should be in fluid balance with his horse.
> 
> ...


I had the best good fortune and a vacation of a lifetime this summer driving cows in wyoming. From what I saw, all the paid hands posted the trot and had their heels under their hips, which I think you feel is dressage and cowboys don't do it.

The herd was big, 600 head, or 300 pairs....cows with their calves. At times we had to stop to let them mother up. So me and the paid hands, both men and women, would hang out on the edge to make sure none of the calves went back to where they nursed last, and we would talk about principles of riding. You would be surprised how many studied classical riding, or as I call it, dressage basics or as they also called it Vaquero style from the old Spanish school of riding. Maybe not in formal lessons, but taught by parents, grandparents, and in one case a great grand parent.

The other interesting thing we talk about was being on the bit. From what I gathered, their horses learned beautiful how to carry the bit.

To my small amount of knowledge a horse that carries the bit independently is on the bit. And some of them were in spades and were as soft as room temp butter. I am no where near ready to ride a horse in a spade, so my horse was in a snaffle. And he was soft too.

Oh, and we traveled about 25-30 miles a day.

Then I helped an endurance rider keep some of her mounts legged up for a few days, and we were out 25-35 miles a day. She also rode with a classic style. She said keeping her body lined up help with joint pain on long rides. I am 55, she was 63 and rode rings around me. I have much to learn.

Buck Brennamen is a classical rider, and he is a cowboy. In fact, I was auditing a clinic of his and said if you are riding fence for 40 miles a day you better post the trot and stay balanced in the saddle to save your horse's back.

Some of us NEED eyes on the ground to help correct our lack of straightness. I thought I was sitting tall and straight in the saddle until I saw a picture of myself. What a leaning, crooked, hot mess with legs poking out and one further back than the other. Gah! That is when I signed up for lessons.....

No, dressage or basic good riding isn't the only way. But if you need help and your horse needs help why not? My ego can handle any and all help.

*sighs* what a great vacation!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

sarahfromsc said:


> *sighs* what a great vacation!


That sounds magical, I'm glad you got to experience it!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Now to share my bit

I used to be one of those "put me on a horse, I'm gonna just ride" kinda gals until I realized I didn't know anything. I knew how to ride pretty, but I could be flung off if they sneezed.

One of the most influential people in my life mentioned I'd make a nice dressage rider. What? I researched it, thought it sounded pretty lame compared to hunter/jumper, but I knew that my horse (who wasn't mine at the time, but a big ol jerk [read: green without confidence] I was leasing) needed something to help him ride less like a llama-cheetah-antelope and more like a relaxed confident mount.

So I took dressage lessons... realized how much I could improve...realized how much my horse was improving... and I've been hooked.

It can be boring only if you let it get boring (which happens if you just drill and drill). I treat each ride on my horse as an adjustment. How can I make this ride better than the last? What can I adjust to get a sweeter feeling trot, to get him more relaxed, to loosen up his shoulders, to get a smoother canter depart?

And every ride, even if it gets frustrating, I love every second of it.

We have plans to do other things in life, but man I love dressage.

My reining friends use the same basics. And they show and bring back trophies/plaques, ribbons, and prizes each time. They can RIDE because they understand they have to be in harmony/balance with their horse... which is what dressage helps us to do. And helps horses too.

Also as a PS, that "dressage seat" from the 1959 Gold medal olympist (and I am not anywhere near earning such a title)... I don't see a balanced horse. I see a hollow one that is being ridden from the neck which is therefore not working effectively which is the opposite of what dressage helps a rider to do. Ride the hind end. Just like reiners do.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_No, dressage or basic good riding isn't the only way. But if you need help and your horse needs help why not?_"

As I've pointed out multiple times: If you want to take dressage lessons to get better at riding, great! And if someone wants to take lesson in a forward seat to get better at riding, great! Same with western.

"_From what I saw, all the paid hands posted the trot and had their heels under their hips, which I think you feel is dressage and cowboys don't do it._"

On the contrary. I learned to post taking lessons in western riding. The ex-cowboy teaching said trotting was the best gait for covering ground and arriving 15 miles later with a horse who still had the energy to work - and he taught posting.

Heels under hip to do so? Depends. In a forward seat, one leans forward to put the center of gravity over the forward stirrups. In most western saddles, the stirrups will be a little forward and only a little lean would be required. You can also post quite effectively on a diagonal if you use a long leg - after all, the horse doesn't know if you are 1/2" out of the saddle or 4" out, and my normal goal when posting is 1/2", with the legs at a small diagonal, with most of the weight in the leg.

"_To my small amount of knowledge a horse that carries the bit independently is on the bit_."

Not according to dressage. It defines it as a horse ridden with constant contact, with the poll as the highest point and the face nearly vertical. OTOH, some argue it should mean "accepting the aids", in which case all horses who are responsive to the rider would be "on the bit". A horse could be ridden bitless and be "on the bit". If anyone wants to push that change, I'm fine with it.

But as a universal goal of riding, I find it easier to say the horse should be responsive to the rider, and getting more so with time. That responsiveness in western riding often means with slack in the reins. But the curb bit that was Mia's favorite, and remains my idea of a great curb bit, would not be legal for dressage, and many English riders rebel at the idea of a green horse being ridden in a curb bit like this:










Yet it worked, and worked well, because it was used with a western philosophy - a different approach than used in dressage.

Again - neither is wrong, or right. There is just more than one way to ride a horse well. Horses will adapt to any rider who rides with tact. I have what is probably a permanent lean in my body due to a previous injury to my back. My horses have all long since adapted to it. They are flexible creatures. All they ask is to be taught what is expected of them, and for a rider to use tact.

"I don't see a balanced horse."

Whatever. I'm not about to tell a two time Olympic Dressage Gold Medalist how to ride dressage. I like his seat. George Morris did as well, but maybe both of them are wrong. I like it better than this:


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

My experience was that riding on my own with no instruction didn't help me become a good rider. But neither did taking lessons for years, even dressage lessons with good instructors (I'm not saying any of you dressage riders don't have good seats, but it only helped me look good and use my aids, not stay on during a hard spook). 

What taught me was a combination of reading about and learning riding principles, along with riding a lot of different horses with the right people. Better than an instructor is another experienced rider on horseback, sharing what you've both learned. I appreciate someone who knows that Dobbin does not like you to touch the bit, but he neck reins perfectly, or that you have to really balance Kelso or he falls all over himself. 

My years of dressage training did not give me a secure seat, and what I learned did not help keep my stirrups on my feet while trotting fast over rough up and down sand dunes, for instance, or stay centered in the saddle when cantering down a twisting, narrow trail. It did not teach me how to stay on when a horse flipped around after spotting a deer or when a horse bolted off suddenly. 

I don't think it really helped me communicate in other training languages either, other than dressage. That was something I had to learn later; how to assess what a horse responded to, whether leg aids frightened or comforted them, whether they preferred a deep seat or a light one, whether they wanted you to talk to them a lot with your aids or only when necessary. Even if they wanted to talk a lot, did they prefer a discussion, or just instruction? Both of my mares are "talkers" but one wants you to just tell her where to go constantly, while the other one wants you to have a running conversation about everything from direction to speed to what she thinks about the weather and our riding companions. 

I saw a documentary on horse racing the other day and it said that Seattle Slew would never do anything you told him to do. However, he was a very generous horse and would kindly do anything you asked him to. That's what draws me to horses, the variety of their personalities. For Slew to insist that he was the boss yet be willing to grant requests, that's a real character. 

That's what I like best about riding, trying to communicate with horses no matter how they are trained and getting them to accept and listen to you.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

gottatrot said:


> My experience was that riding on my own with no instruction didn't help me become a good rider. But neither did taking lessons for years, even dressage lessons with good instructors (I'm not saying any of you dressage riders don't have good seats, but it only helped me look good and use my aids, not stay on during a hard spook).


To me this sounds like not a good instructor. Dressage makes you more of an effective rider, not a pretty rider like you are describing. There are "bad" coaches abound that seems like good coaches at first.

It took me years to find the right coach which I did whilst I was overseas, and she's in New Zealand, which is obviously nowhere near the states. But the time I spent with her helped me a lot. 

After 5 years of owning my horse, and one more in addition of riding him as a lease, I only just got him THROUGH (simply working correctly) lately and once at that. What does that tell you about my riding? I've had many lessons but only the effective coaches helped me. Right now mine is virtual as well as a few tid-bits I picked up auditing a clinic last minute

Just a few thoughts.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

bsms said:


>


^This rider is not resting at the halt. If you look more carefully she is cueing for canter from the trot, right lead, and asking for it just at the point where the left hind is about to hit the ground. Right lead is:
Left Hind, Right Hind+Left Front together, Right Front, suspension. That small black blob on the bottom of the belly is the rider's left foot backwards and cueing. These are the correct cues for the Right Lead, left foot slightly backwards, right foot slightly forwards to gently push the HQ's inside and gently push the shoulder slightly outside. I'm not being a snob to use "inside" and "outside". It is just standard vocabulary for working a horse in an arena, and other horse people who have had classical training know EXACTLY what I mean when I use them. Of course your legs switch positions to ask for the Left lead.
I always feel for the horse. It is rare for a horse to be bred and stay his/her whole life with one owner. Several breeders here, who breed today to replace a retiring showhorse are the exceptions. Most of the rest of the horses owned have "who knows HOW many" previous owners. 
There are many factors that can help keep a horse from a bad end. Good handling, yes, but proper training.
I tried out a mare that wouldn't stop unless you put your heels in front of her chest, and they were yelling at me to do so at my test ride, because she would not stop with a bit.
You cannot just make up your cues and riding language for your horse. Every time you ride you are training your horse. You go to sell your horse and the next person asks with standard cues, your sale horse doesn't listen and the horse doesn't sell. You sell your horse ANYWAY, and they end up at an auction because they have learned your hackneyed cues so well that the next person didn't want to fight your horse enough to retrain him. I've passed on several of those over the years, NOT WORTH MY TIME.
*If you learn to ride correctly, you learn to TRAIN correctly, and your horse RIDES correctly. * That is the best insurance that a horse ends up having a good life and a good home in retirement.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_This rider is not resting at the halt._"

Never said he was. He was trotting.

"_ If you look more carefully she is cueing for canter from the trot._"

If he was, Totilas ignored him. They continued trotting. 

"_You cannot just make up your cues and riding language for your horse."
_
Of course you can. However, most use the cues they know and that make sense to them. I own what I jokingly call "Craigslist horses". NONE of them have learned any complex or classical cues. Cowboy had at least 6 previous owner that the last person knew of, and had been a lesson horse, and about all he knew was that arenas are scary places. The best way to stop him, back then, was to ride him into something solid. There is a reason he was free - yet he is now the horse I have the most confidence in!

If I sell Bandit this spring, no one will be interested in his flying lead changes. Which is good, because he didn't come here with them and won't leave (if he leaves) with them. There is a lot to like about Bandit, but he arrived here bracing his back like an I-beam when asked for a trot, drifting because his front left hoof was incorrectly shod and he had learned to use it with a twisted leg, and believing that ANY pressure on the reins meant stop as fast as you can right now.

In the world of free to sub-$1000 horses, you don't get a classically trained horse ready to perform anything. You get a horse "with a list" as Cherie puts it, and your job as the new owner is to figure out what problems are on that list and how to get some of them off.

Nor are "classical" cues "standard" ones. I once read a dressage book that claimed certain cues are just "natural" for the horse. So I went out and tried them, and none of my horses responded "correctly". There are almost no "natural" cues. Cues are whatever we train a horse to understand, which is why we always (in the sub-$1000 horse world) need to figure out what the horse does or does not understand before blaming a horse for not responding. Most of the "problems" are just a horse who has been trained to do something I do not like.

Bandit, as I pointed out, thought the tiniest contact with a bit meant "Stop Immediately" - which he did. He had mostly been ridden in a bosal, and was only taught a bit because without one, "he wouldn't stop if racing". So Bandit was just doing exactly what he had been taught, and I needed to teach him that contact doesn't always mean "Emergency Stop!". He braced his back at a trot because his previous owner weighed 220 in his socks (my guess) and Bandit is an 800 lb horse.

When I was taking lessons some years ago, I asked my fellow students the cue for canter. After looking at me as if I were from Mars, one said, "Kick harder?". And frankly, that IS the local cue for canter!

" _I've passed on several of those over the years, NOT WORTH MY TIME._"

That is all I've ever owned. Around here, what counts when selling a horse is "_Can the horse be ridden safely in the desert?_" - which is a very different question. A horse that knows 100 cues and can perform in the arena or meadow may melt down when surrounded with cactus. Bandit worried a lot at first because the Sonoran Desert is so very different from the open country of the Navajo Reservation.

In the world where I live, a horse who stays calm when a vulture buzzes his head, or who knows when the descent into a wash is too unstable to try, or who will be alert but not panicked by javelina is valued a lot more than a horse who can do flying lead changes.

Mind you, dressage training would not be HARMFUL to such a horse, but neither would most potential buyers have any need for it. The tradition here values a horse who knows when to balk, who uses his own judgment and sometimes tells his rider "Hell no!" That good judgment is not learned in an arena, and the local market values it much more than knowing classical cues - after all, most of the buyers don't know classical cues either!

Welcome to my world! :loveshower:


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The Free Walk if done correctly will get you good marks in a dressage test
No collection, poll is not at the highest point and the reins are loose though the horse may still have contact with the bit.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> To me this sounds like not a good instructor. Dressage makes you more of an effective rider, not a pretty rider like you are describing. There are "bad" coaches abound that seems like good coaches at first.
> 
> It took me years to find the right coach which I did whilst I was overseas, and she's in New Zealand, which is obviously nowhere near the states. But the time I spent with her helped me a lot.


Then I'd say if good dressage instructors are that rare, I wouldn't recommend people spending their money on the lessons unless they are serious about dressage and want to search out a great coach as you did. Personally I had four, and I do believe that three of them were good. That is based on them having students that did well competitively and their own horses doing well, and what they taught meshed with what I read in dressage theory books. But in the world of riding I've not found that being effective with my aids necessarily translates into a cooperative horse or myself staying on said horse. So I can't say those lessons were the foundation for my riding, more like a little piece of a big puzzle which I'm still working on.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I'll add that if you've taken dressage lessons and ride a horse that has been trained in dressage, it is a very enjoyable experience. My friend has a warmblood that is very well trained and he responds to all the aids beautifully. Just off subtle seat cues he'll rock back or get more forward and extend, and if you put him into a certain trot or canter he will stay there indefinitely until he hears something from you. However, this didn't help him a lot when he began going out on trails after his years as an arena horse. He was very insecure about taking a different direction than other horses and was quite a rearer at first when he was scared. I'd say he's a more well rounded horse now.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I don't think the OP is doing dressage to anything like the level most people see as dressage - in the UK it would be equivalent to taking basic riding lessons from a good BHS instructor. No one at the level she and the horse are at would be doing any sitting trot work because the low level tests all use posting trot so no longer stirrup length - just a GP seat
I think maybe she's confusing 'sitting pretty' with sitting correctly because that's all its about - and if you're just 'sitting pretty' then you aren't riding effectively especially on a green horse, you might get away with it a bit on a real schoolmaster who knows how to interpret vague cues but a young horse needs clear signals


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

I agree with jaydee. I learned riding in Germany, and "basic dressage" was just considered basic riding skills. Everyone had to take at least ten lessons on the lunge line to learn what a proper seat should look like, followed by flat lessons. You were only allowed to jump or go on trails when the basic riding skills were deemed good enough, which sometimes took a year, and often longer.
In North America, it seems like riding lessons are a lot more fun oriented. People jump and trail ride here with minimal riding experience. 
It's just a different philosophy.

In the end, it all comes down to what you are looking for. Can you self-teach how to stay on a horse and get from A to B? Sure.
If you are indeed aiming for endurance, basic riding skills are a plus, but dressage lessons are probably not thaaaat important. It's mostly about the conditioning. 
If you are aiming for eventing, you won't get anywhere without dressage and will hit a plateau very fast where you stop progressing.

I personally find that it is a lot easier to learn proper technique from the start rather than self-teach and then try to fix engrained habits later. No matter if it's yoga, rock climbing, martial arts or riding, I haven't met a single self-taught person that didn't end up with some improper technique.
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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"I haven't met a single self-taught person that didn't end up with some improper technique."

I'm not sure I'm ever met anyone with instruction who had perfect technique. I'm also not certain riding in circles on level ground teaches a person how to stay on in a spook or how to adjust one's balance when the horse is struggling. Lessons in learning how to make a horse work harder while going slower may not be optimum for learning to to make a horse work less while going faster.

Again, not anti-dressage. I just don't see where that school of riding is optimal for covering ground efficiently. I've certainly seen ample bad instruction, and bad instruction is worse than no instruction.

Kickboxing may be good cross-training for someone who loves judo, but studying kickboxing isn't the best route to becoming proficient at judo.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"I haven't met a single self-taught person that didn't end up with some improper technique."

I'm not sure I'm ever met anyone with instruction who had perfect technique. I'm also not certain riding in circles on level ground teaches a person how to stay on in a spook or how to adjust one's balance when the horse is struggling. Lessons in learning how to make a horse work harder while going slower may not be optimum for learning to to make a horse work less while going faster. A forward seat would be a better match to the goals.

Again, not anti-dressage. I just don't see where that school of riding is optimal for covering ground efficiently. I've certainly seen ample bad instruction, and bad instruction is worse than no instruction.

Kickboxing may be good cross-training for someone who loves judo, but studying kickboxing isn't the best route to becoming proficient at judo.


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## Rob55 (Mar 6, 2014)

War horses, the model for endurance riding, were trained in dressage. Dressage th the French word for training horses. Just saying endurance, jumper. Hunter eventer can all profit from dressage up to the third level. If you and your horse get that far and want to go farther nobody will be asking you what direction you want to go. Every thing you hear others talking about when it comes to training improving and recovering from endurance can be learned in the dressage ring. You do not have to do dressage, but it will not hurt. You can do long slow conditioning. And still take lessons in the area a. You do not have to compete in a show.
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## Rob55 (Mar 6, 2014)

So as I read other post I have a few comments. Weight training ing and cardio training in the right combination are ways all athletes improve. Dressage is not making a horse work harder at going slow. It like weight training increases strength and flexibility in the horse. One can excel at endurance without dressage. But a well rounded athlete competes at higher levels with less risk of injury.
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## Rob55 (Mar 6, 2014)

Oh read all you can about balanced seat. It will be hard to find an instructor. Eventing may be your best bet. It is the seat of the old soldier in the photo on this thread. Triple Creek Farm History of the Balanced Seat
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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

War horses were not trained in dressage. VS Littauer wrote a book on the history of riding which covers that well. The exception was the Russian Cavalry prior to WW1, which Littauer was in - and he experienced its failure to prepare horses to handle distances.

The approach to riding used in dressage is about teaching a horse to move a certain way. That way does not emphasize efficiency. It strengthens muscles not used for endurance. Lots of distance runners do weight lifting, but they do it as a form of cross training - good for fitness, but not for improving endurance race times.

The question was "is this [not taking dressage lessons] bad for me as a rider? Do you believe every rider should do dressage?".

Let me rephrase it: "Is not taking jumping lessons bad for me as a rider? Do you believe every rider should do jumping?"

"Is not taking reining lessons bad for me as a rider? Do you believe every rider should do reining?"

"Is not taking barrel racing lessons bad for me as a rider? Do you believe every rider should do barrel racing?"

Reining, jumping and barrel racing are also sports that strengthen horses. They all want responsive horses. But who would say you MUST take reining lessons or you will suck as a rider? The quick acceleration and tight turns and balance of barrel racing may be good for a horse's conditioning, but no one claims you must study it to be a good rider.

Among trail riders around here, being self-taught is very common. Many of them would be surprised to know they suck at riding. Some do of course, because some don't CARE about riding well - and it shows. Those who care, learn...but not by taking years of lessons in an arena."From the halt, you will trot on. About two strides before you reach the far end of the arena, you will half-halt (purple) to let the horse know that you are about to ask for something. This will also balance him and get him physically ready for the turn. After the half-halt, you will begin to signal for the turn.

Along the arena rail, you will do the same thing: half-halt (purple) about two strides from the corner, in order to balance him and get him ready. Then you will begin to signal for the turn."

Lorien Stable - What is a Half-Halt, and How is it Used?​That is negative training for trail riding. Trooper probably had a few thousand miles put on him in his time on a ranch, prior to coming here, and he never got a half-halt. Balance and being able to turn (or accelerate, or slow, or go up a steep hill) were HIS responsibility. Watching where to put his feet were (and is) his responsibility. Where to go next was the rider's. That is taught by letting the horse make decisions, including making some bad ones, so the horse learns to make good ones. Then you have a partner, not a servant.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Actually the better you ride and the better your horse is trained the more efficiently your horse will perform/cover the ground

I wouldn't dismiss good instruction because there's some bad stuff around - rather advise people to do their research and ask around before paying anyone for lessons
IMO when someone says they're doing fine without something I say 'based on what comparison.
Its like saying food A tastes better than food B without ever experiencing food B.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

jaydee said:


> Actually the better you ride and the better your horse is trained the more efficiently your horse will perform/cover the ground
> 
> *I wouldn't dismiss good instruction because there's some bad stuff around -* rather advise people to do their research and ask around before paying anyone for lessons
> IMO when someone says they're doing fine without something I say 'based on what comparison.
> Its like saying food A tastes better than food B without ever experiencing food B.


AGREED!!!

My point above re my opinion on a good instructor was not that it's so hard to find good ones that you should give up. NO. There are bad instructors, or coaches, or professionals EVERYWHERE. Giving up because it requires more effort is silly and will get you absolutely nowhere. And it's not just those who are "serious" about a discipline.... a good instructor is the difference between a potentially backsore, sour horse who fights you every step of the way, and one that is not frustrated and just has to work on their fitness and coordination as they improve along with training.

Using the logic someone else said above about giving up, my horse would STILL be a trainwreck, if he were alive because most horses like past-him would have been put down.

Thank goodness I pushed on and found good instructors, among a lot of very bad ones. And by bad I mean poor at teaching, use gadgets instead of helping a rider get there with their horse, rude and belligerent without results and likely due to personal frustration, improper teaching, coddling a horse who is being bad or is supposed to be working, being reckless, plain not knowing what they are doing, not challenging the rider or being understanding of handicaps (physical injuries, breathing problems, etc.) or just plain did not work for you (their teaching style, personality, ideas, etc.)

I could go on, but they're all grouped under "bad"


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

And finding a good instructor goes for ALL disciplines, but since I am primarily a dressage rider, and it's IMPORTANT for your horse to go nicely under saddle on the ground as to avoid injury and increase their confidence and endurance and overall ability... it is crucial to have a good dressage instructor.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

"Corporal" HAD 10,000+ miles under saddle on him by the time that he was 14yo. Half halts made him a babysitter horse, inasmuch as a scatty Arabian CAN be. He certainly was a SAFE horse, fearless, maybe not for children. My DD's all enjoyed riding him and that fact that he had good brakes and could be direct reined and neck reined and that he would back and you could manuever him around obstacles and jump him. Kinda like a sports car.
This was all from training, not empty hours under saddle.
Chris Cox was a pony clubber and he chases cattle and he rides reining horses. He recently had a program about the importance of a balanced seat and how Dressage has made a great contribution to Western riding over the last 10 years.
I've watched his Road to the Horse programs where he starts a colt in 2 days. I've seen his finished horses, and I'd like one, please.
**sigh**
I know that I don't know enough about training. 
I know enough to know that I am always learning how to train better.
If I had money to burn, I'd be at a Dressage Clinic this weekend.


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

There has been a lot of good words of wisdom passed in this thread. 

I was going to say as well on line with instructors. Regardless of what you do with horses it IS extremely hard to find a good instructor. 

I had quite a few "bad" trainers and "okay" trainers before I found a really good one. NO ONE in my family was into horses, no one had horses and didn't know anything about it. So a lot of trial and error here. I still look back at a cross roads I hit a few years ago and think how different my life and riding would be if I had chosen a different path.

About 8 or 9 years ago I moved from Oregon. Yes I did LOTS of trail riding and fitness stuff with my event horse. I had incredible trails literally riding distance from the different places I boarded. I've gone to the coast, ridden in the mountains, on sand dunes, etc. But I moved 2000+ miles and there were 2 main barns I was looking at 1 with a trainer who was showing I1-I2 and she had her bronze/silver medals talked a big game about how she was a classical trainer and would have us showing 3rd level in no time. At the time I had been training with a "classical style" trainer from Belgium. Then barn 2 there was my trainer who trained in the UK for 8yrs, BHS approved, trained under Christopher and Jane-Wilson Bartle. This trainer didn't have as impressive a show career and she didn't have fancy horses but I ended up training with her. At the time I had NO idea she had schooled through advanced level eventing, I just knew she had 2 horses going 2nd level. My trainer didn't grow up with money, riding expensive schoolmasters like the other trainer. She had to make horses from the ground up and often had the horses who were too "difficult or quirky" or weren't fancy because she couldn't afford the nice horses and it DOES hold you back but her knowledge is SO much more extensive and thorough. She has a far greater understanding of horsemanship and riding than that other trainer ever will. She was not as pretty of a rider (she is now) but then she was very effective but not pretty. Most people would have probably picked trainer 1 to ride with because she was a prettier rider with nicer horses and had an extensive show career but the superficial stamps aren't what indicate a good trainer/rider. Since then I've ridden/re-trained multiple horses from trainer 1. EVERY single horse has been a re-training project. A horse showing 3rd-4th will have NO idea how to half halt and really lift up through their withers and can't trot long-low on a 20m circle because they're so used to being held together. Sure they're at the vertical and overtrack but they're never through and often have a lot of mental issues from the training/riding. 

Sometimes people who have many awards and decorations are VERY poor riders/trainers, some people are great riders but aren't great coaches and some of the best coaches are not great riders which can make it VERY hard when figuring out who REALLY knows their stuff and who doesn't. A lot of the WORST trainers talk the biggest game. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep trying and shouldn't keep looking for someone who is good because the knowledge you can gain from another can open windows you didn't even know existed. Books are very limited interpretations of the knowledge that is out there. I am SO grateful to the trainers I work with and the experiences they have provided because honestly EVERY TIME you think you know what you're doing, you will find a horse that challenges EVERYTHING you were ever taught and told in theory and you have to adapt. It's an equally frustrating and beautiful thing because you will never be perfect and never know everything but your knowledge and depth will expand.


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

bsms said:


> "I haven't met a single self-taught person that didn't end up with some improper technique."
> 
> I'm not sure I'm ever met anyone with instruction who had perfect technique. I'm also not certain riding in circles on level ground teaches a person how to stay on in a spook or how to adjust one's balance when the horse is struggling.


I was pretty sure you were going to jump on this .
Like I said, it depends on your aims. If you are happy with how you and your horse are doing, more power to you. Happiness is what riding is all about in the end, cause none of us actually need it for transportation anymore.

I also never said that riders become flawless with instruction. It's hard enough to develop a good seat WITH a good instructor. The apprentices at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna do daily schooling on the lunge for a year or longer to develop a good seat, and I don't think they do it to waste their time.
For anyone who has e.g. ever tried self-correcting yoga poses, it is really difficult. Sometimes your awareness of your own body is off, you think you are doing a certain thing and in reality you are doing something completely different. Heck, it's difficult enough to remeber to walk and sit straight .
Now with riding, add another independent being - your horse - to the equation, and it becomes almost impossible to objectively be aware of all parts of your own body, all parts of your horse's body, and the motion of both. Let alone correct it all, even though you theoretically know what it's supposed to look like. 

What dressage is supposed to teach you as a rider is an independent seat, where you can use your legs, hips, weight and hands all independently of each other - keep them still when you need to, and give precise aids when you need to, and build a core that's strong, yet supple.
What dressage is supposed to teach your horse is to become strong and flexible and usr his/her body properly. There is a physiological reason why collection makes sense.

To use your analogy with kickboxing/judo: to me, self-taught riding is more like saying "Well, I've never lost a bar fight, and I've been in many, so why would I need martial arts instruction?"
If your aim is winning "real life" bar fights and you're a big enough guy, you might not need or see a point in stylized martial arts with rules and such. I've never seen anyone pull a judo move in a bar. But if your aim is practising a sport that teaches body control, discipline, strength, precise movement etc, then martial arts might be a good choice.
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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Great post Regula, so agree with you.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Regula said:


> To use your analogy with kickboxing/judo: to me, self-taught riding is more like saying "Well, I've never lost a bar fight, and I've been in many, so why would I need martial arts instruction?"
> If your aim is winning "real life" bar fights and you're a big enough guy, you might not need or see a point in stylized martial arts with rules and such. I've never seen anyone pull a judo move in a bar. But if your aim is practising a sport that teaches body control, discipline, strength, precise movement etc, then martial arts might be a good choice.


With all of these things I believe the most important is the will of the person to learn, their logical brain, and the need for some physical/kinetic ability to perform the task. There are different paths to the same end (a good rider), and a person can get there from lessons, being self taught, reading books, and/or just riding lots of instructive horses. Or a combination of the above. You can have a bad instructor and throw out the bad and learn from what they say that is good based on what you've learned on your own about good riding. You can learn on your own and have someone video you or get critiques now and then. The ones who won't learn are those who want to get spoon fed and never question what they are told or what they read. Or who don't put in enough effort on their own, or who don't have the physical ability. Even a really great instructor won't be able to teach you everything you need to know without a lot of critical thinking and some ability on your part.

It's the same with your analogy to the martial arts world. My husband first trained and took lessons from some of the well recognized and top fighters in MMA, a number of years ago. He was older than a person would be to start competing, so did it for a hobby and exercise. We moved away from the city and he began learning on his own with books and videos. He felt he learned more about technique and his body kinesis after he began working on his own and really thinking about it all critically. He used his lesson time well, but had the same basic experience I did with dressage lessons in that he felt some of the most important things were missed, and that he learned more later on his own.

I feel there is a difference between self-taught riding and bar fighting in that you're assuming both of these things are going off of just physical moves with no thinking involved. But a person might be learning to ride on their own based on sound principles and critical thinking, and even off the classical principles of dressage. For instance, I self-taught myself to long line using books and learned many good principles that I believe are easily learned from photographs and written words rather than having someone physically show me how to hold the lines. 
Robot Check
Another thing my experienced horse friends and I taught ourselves was to drive and to train horses to drive. If you're experienced with horses, this also is something you can learn from books and pictures rather than in person.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Regula said:


> ...What dressage is supposed to teach you as a rider is an independent seat, where you can use your legs, hips, weight and hands all independently of each other - keep them still when you need to, and give precise aids when you need to, and build a core that's strong, yet supple.
> What dressage is supposed to teach your horse is to become strong and flexible and usr his/her body properly. There is a physiological reason why collection makes sense...


Actually, ANY riding values an independent seat. A forward seat values an independent seat, but it has nothing to do with dressage. I've spent enough time on a spooky horse to value an independent seat, but that is NOT the goal of dressage. It may be a side effect, but one can toss one's dressage books in the trash and still have an "independent seat". In fact, I see no sign an independent seat is actually TAUGHT by anyone. 

You learn it like you learn riding a bike - by doing it and developing your balance. You do not spend a year riding your bike in circles around an instructor, whiole the instructor shouts out "Don't look at the ground! Head up! Eyes out! Don't lean on the handlebars!"

Same with the horse. You learn balance by practice. Some of us take longer and will never be as good based on our physical limits. But really, riding with an independent seat is NOT very hard.

The goal of dressage is not a horse who uses its body properly - which race horses do, BTW, and cutting horses, and they do it without collection. There is no physiological reason why collection makes sense independent of humans valuing it.

None of that makes it wrong to study or love dressage, but a horse can turn fine without dressage collection. A barrel racing horse does NOT use FEI/dressage collection to power thru a turn:










but it is still an athletic horse turning very fast and powerfully. Horses can carry weight on their back easier without collection, just as someone with a backpack on their back doesn't instinctively dance ballet.

Until one defines what they want to do, one cannot define what is meant by 'the horse using its body correctly'. What is correct for one activity is incorrect for another. Littauer and Gen Chamberlin emphasized long, low strides because that WAS 'using the body correctly' if you want the horse to cover ground, with weight on its back, and not exhaust itself. If you wish to move horizontally efficiently, you use the vertical as little as possible. But collection IS using the vertical, lifting (not rounding) the back.

It may be fun. It may be good cross training. It is not effective training for covering ground efficiently.

Dressage may or may not be fun. But lessons in dressage are NOT a requirement to ride well - which answers the OP's question. You can be a good rider and a barrel racer, or a good rider and work cattle, or a good rider who spend 95% of your time on the trail - or you can be a pee-poor rider at any of those. Same with dressage.

I suggest "A History of Horsemanship" to review the MANY ways horses have been ridden around the world and throughout time. Even the Europeans didn't follow it in medieval times (1655):


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Really?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

sarahfromsc said:


> Really?


I take it this means you don't find the discussion interesting? I've thought it has been thought-provoking with good points about the pros and cons of lessons or not, whether dressage is truly the "foundation" of all other riding, and etc. I know some people feel debating is arguing, but if people are open-minded they can learn from opposing views.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I just feel when someone pulls information that is hundreds of years old, or centuries, that it was during a different time when horse health was not understood fully and riding had different goals. It wasn't really a sport but more of a form of transportation or a means of getting around in a war/battle

There's a reason that there are different modern positions used for different things. However I don't really see a logical reason to compare really old riding positions to positions used and recommended for particular disciplines now.

Anyone can ride a horse, just sit on it and kick and pull it around, or bump it with your legs and neck rein or crank the reins in and let the horse do whatever. You're technically riding, but it's not really the best riding that one and one's horse can do.

That's just how I see it.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I just feel when someone pulls information that is hundreds of years old, or centuries, that it was during a different time when horse health was not understood fully and riding had different goals. It wasn't really a sport but more of a form of transportation or a means of getting around in a war/battle
> 
> There's a reason that there are different modern positions used for different things. However I don't really see a logical reason to compare really old riding positions to positions used and recommended for particular disciplines now.
> 
> ...


Well, hopefully no one on here is advocating riding where you just sit and kick and pull around the horse, but that's not likely since we're all discussing the most ideal ways to ride and learn. But stating your opinion as above is conducive to a good discussion. I feel history does add some context to where horses are now, and there were many good horsemen throughout history such as Alexander the Great and others. They also had goals of communicating with horses and not just pulling them around or getting from point A to point B.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

bsms said:


> Actually, ANY riding values an independent seat. A forward seat values an independent seat, but it has nothing to do with dressage.


To say that dressage has nothing to do with the forward seat is incorrect, and should not be repeated. The forward seat is a style and a method of riding. Riding styles and methods are not static, and they evolve. I know you worship Littauer but there are many other people that deserve credit for the development of the forward seat. 

Bert de Demethy is considered a master of the forward seat and he included dressage training with gymnastics into his method, a method that is still current today. You can read about him below. 

FOUR SHOWJUMPING MASTERS â€“ Part 3: Bertalan de NÃ©methy | The Horse Magazine – Australia's Leading Equestrian Magazine


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

gottatrot said:


> I take it this means you don't find the discussion interesting? I've thought it has been thought-provoking with good points about the pros and cons of lessons or not, whether dressage is truly the "foundation" of all other riding, and etc. I know some people feel debating is arguing, but if people are open-minded they can learn from opposing views.


You took it wrong.

I have found it interesting and eye opening.

I may be a very old dog, but I'm certainly spry enough physically and mentally to learn new tricks.

Maybe because I am willing to try something new.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

sarahfromsc said:


> You took it wrong.


My apologies, that is a good attitude to have. I shouldn't attempt to interpret one word answers.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

updownrider said:


> To say that dressage has nothing to do with the forward seat is incorrect, and should not be repeated. The forward seat is a style and a method of riding. Riding styles and methods are not static, and they evolve. I know you worship Littauer but there are many other people that deserve credit for the development of the forward seat.
> 
> Bert de Demethy is considered a master of the forward seat and he included dressage training with gymnastics into his method, a method that is still current today. You can read about him below.
> 
> FOUR SHOWJUMPING MASTERS â€“ Part 3: Bertalan de NÃ©methy | The Horse Magazine – Australia's Leading Equestrian Magazine


*I EMPHATICALLY AGREE!*

I Guess that I am never satisfied with my horses and when somebody shows me that their horse can do something that MY horse doesn't do, I REALLY want to know how to train and how to ride so that I can do it, too.
Maybe other people, like my DH, are simply satisfied that their horse carries them safely from A to B and has a good attitude. i am responsible for his horse being that way. BUt, even HE doesn't like it when he is just riding at the walk a his horse decides that he is done, and will say, "no."


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I have many interests. I was a double major, and one was music. ANYBODY can and can feel like they are "making music." The entitled youth whose mother has made a shrine can believe that banging away on the table is "making music."
I don't think that anybody else wants to listen to it.
There are lots and lots of musical vocabulary that is defined as "sound." Remarkable. Each one of them has a specific definition of "sound." When I study music I can understand the subtlely of the terminology and put it into practice. Then I can use language to write to some other musician and HE/SHE can understand the subtlety, too.
Sometimes people believe that musicians who study classical music don't like popular music. This is not true.
Classical musicians can tell you WHY a popular piece IS popular by dissecting it and analyzing it.
Many times we like certain pieces of music because we have formed an appetite for it.
Horses are like that, and can learn to love the owner and overlook the training.
Many times we like certain pieces of music because they fit a palatable formula, not too long, enough but not too many repetitions, enough but not too many variations, good ending, stuff like that.
Classical musicians, again, can tell you WHY you and lots of other people like a piece of music.
Horses are like that, and will respond to training that they can understand.
There are documented 500 years of music analysis to draw from.
There are also documented 500 or so years of horse training to draw from.
Who are WE to say that our ancestors weren't as smart as us?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"To say that dressage has nothing to do with the forward seat is incorrect, and should not be repeated...I know you worship Littauer but there are many other people that deserve credit for the development of the forward seat."

I'll repeat it because it is true.

Caprilli, Santinni (whose books I dislike but have read), Chambelin, Littauer, the US Cavalry - the forward seat they taught had NOTHING to do with dressage. They did not teach a blended approach, where one used a dressage seat for flat riding and switched to a forward seat for jumping. They taught using a forward seat all the time:



















https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOyvimZuF5o

And in fact is was used well before Caprilli popularized it, as the 1655 painting shows. You can also find in demonstrated on Greek vases going back to 500 BC, and it is how the Mongol invaders normally rode. But it is not, in any way, a variation of a dressage seat.

The contrast between the two is very simple:

Good riding matches the center of gravity of the rider with the horse, so they are balanced as one. In a dressage seat, you teach the horse to shift his weight to the rear (collection) to bring his CG under yours. In a forward seat, the rider shifts his weight forward to place it over the horse.

Having a straight vertical line from ear to shoulder to hip to heel works in a dressage seat. It does not work for a forward deat.

Of course, a rider can choose to switch between the two, or to add a third option - to be behind the horse's center of gravity for normal riding, then switch to either mode for specific actions. That is the western approach, which can be very good if you worry about your horse taking a fall in a gopher hole or you need to spend 12 hours in the saddle.

I would argue a well rounded rider ought to eventually learn all 3 approaches, since each has value in some situation. But it seems silly, to me, to elevate one as superior to the others. As much as I like Littauer and Chamberlin's writings on a forward seat, they both looked down on western riding - and I've become a western rider. I think both failed to appreciate the differences between an English saddle tree and a Western one, and both ignored the possibilities of training a horse to work well without contact most of the time - although in his old age, Littauer did say one could do 90% of hacking with a slack rein without a problem from the horse.

Dressage is a perfectly respectable horse sport, but it ought to be appreciated as a coherent whole - the stuff one is taught at the lower level is the foundation the upper level rests upon. But that in turn suggests the things taught at the lower level are influenced by the goals of the upper level, since the foundation one lays depends on the building one wants.

There are many good ways to ride a horse. Maybe that is an ADVANTAGE to being self-taught, and reading books from all approaches to try to solve the problem of how I should ride - I didn't inherit biases from my initial instruction and mistake THAT for THE way of riding. It allows me to experiment with different tack and approaches, learning the value of them all. All, not one.

Arguably, the OP's best bet for becoming a good rider might be to stop dressage lessons with someone who believes all riders must study dressage to become good, and get out on some trails and try things for herself, on her horse, and let the horse teach her.

If you need months or years before trying a trail, then perhaps the method of teaching being used is at fault. A friend came out a couple of months ago. He had never ridden a horse in his life. He didn't fit a 16" saddle very well, being 6'5" tall, but that is all we had. He rode 14.3 hands Trooper (850 lbs). With my daughter and another friend, they went out into the desert for a 2.5 hour ride.

I gave him about 2 minutes of instruction, and they went. When he came back, he had walked, trotted and cantered. Gone up and down hills. Gone cross country between cactus.

Did he return a finished rider? Of course not! But he covered more ground, so to speak, in his first 2.5 hours on a horse than some riders do in a year. If someone wants to develop balance and teamwork with a horse, perhaps getting out of the arena and going somewhere would help!

No one learns to ride a bike by doing circles around an instructor, and a bike is unstable and completely willing to fall. Of course, a bike won't buck, spin or run away on its own, but that is where a good horse can do wonders. 

If you want to learn an equine sport, be it jumping, dressage, cutting or barrel racing, lessons are extremely valuable. If you want to learn to read a horse and ride him in the way he wants to be ridden...lessons are no better than OK. If you want to ride a horse the way a horse wants to be ridden, learn from the horse.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

bsms said:


> Dressage is not "training".


Words can have many definitions. One of the definitions of dressage is training and no mater how many books you read, you can not say that dressage is not training.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

_"If you want to learn to read a horse and ride him in the way he wants to be ridden...lessons are no better than OK."_
Not true. It is people passing on what they know to you, who doesn't know. Lessons are lessons. Not everyone who hangs out a lesson shingle is a poser.

_"If you want to ride a horse the way a horse wants to be ridden, learn from the horse."_
I'll let you know when my horse is perfect and how I did it *without* studying trainers who know more than me.
Who are *WE* to say that our ancestors weren't as smart as us? 
Who are *WE* to say that other horse trainers aren't as smart as us? 
Please reconsider your position.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Corporal said:


> ...Horses are like that, and will respond to training that they can understand.
> There are documented 500 years of music analysis to draw from.
> There are also documented 500 or so years of horse training to draw from.
> Who are WE to say that our ancestors weren't as smart as us?


That also has nothing to do with taking dressage lessons. I'm not suggesting we are only now learning how to ride a horse. After all, the forward seat is recognizable from 500 BC:








​ 
That said, I'm not sure I want to ride as taught by La Guérinièr (1750s):








​ 
The point is that there were excellent riders throughout history who never studied dressage and who did not adopt its principles. A Chinese statue of a game similar to polo, roughly 700 AD:








​ 
Not perfect, but I've been there, done that, and it isn't bad. We've got 2500 years of riding, from the entire world. Why set a riding style used by the very wealthy for parties in the 1500s-1700s as the pinnacle of riding? Or the one used by circuses in the late 1800s?

As for why modern knowledge might imply changes, consider the FEI rules on dressage:"_The Horse thus gives the impression of doing, of its own accord, what is required...In all the work, even at the halt, the Horse must be “on the bit”. A Horse is said to be “on the bit” when the neck is more or less raised and arched according to the stage of training and the extension or collection of the pace, accepting the bridle with a light and consistent soft submissive contact. The head should remain in a steady position, as a rule slightly in front of the vertical, with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck, and no resistance should be offered to the Athlete_."

http://www.fei.org/sites/default/files/DRE-Rules_2016_GA-approved_clean.pdf​When a horse is "on the bit", we now know its vision is severely hampered. The area of good vision - near human - is quite small, and the horse MUST be able to move its head around in order to see well. The rest of the horse's eye supports a resolution 50-100 times worse than a human's, so making a certain head position a requirement - "In all the work, even at the halt" - is like temporarily blinding the horse. I think that borders on inhumane, although it is OK for going slow in an arena. But it strongly suggests we should never do that to a horse in the open - so why train to that goal, if our goal is to ride in the open?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

updownrider said:


> Words can have many definitions. One of the definitions of dressage is training and no mater how many books you read, you can not say that dressage is not training.


Dressage means training IN FRENCH. In English, we have another word for training - "training". Unless you want to declare ALL instructors - including those teaching cutting and barrel racing - are "dressage instructors" - then it is best to use the words as they mean in English when writing in English.

The OP was asking about instruction in a particular style - dressage. She was not referring to someone teaching her how to ride a barrel race. :icon_rolleyes: If you buy a book on dressage, you will not expect to learn this:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

*Origin of dressage*

French, from _dresser_ to train, drill, from Middle French




No nothing to do with training:icon_rolleyes:


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Of COURSE, the OP mentioned "Dressage Training!" Her instructor is suggesting this, and WE haven't been party to their conversations.
If I was her trainer, I would have suggested it, too.
Toma, (pony, mutt, 1970-2004, RIP) was a rental horse that was being sold at auction because he was running back to the barn. It is because of him that I became interested in learning how to keep a horse's front legs from wearing out. My study of it, withOUT Dressage training, BUT with several years of HS/J training from a nobody at a nobody stable, but MAN, could he control a horse!, gave me great respect for people who train Dressage.

If I cannot get you to appreciate this by now, I guess I'll have to give up on it.
MY horses are the better for my respect for them.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> *Origin of dressage*
> 
> French, from _dresser_ to train, drill, from Middle French
> 
> ...


So...when you buy a book on "dressage", or go to an instructor who says they are a "dressage instructor", are you content to learn barrel racing? 

Do you believe, for one moment, that the OP is getting lessons in western riding?

"MY horses are the better for my respect for them."

Since you connect this to studying dressage, do you mean people who do NOT study dressage lack respect for their horses?


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## cbar (Nov 27, 2015)

This is a great thread!!! I thought I'd throw my 2cents in  

I am essentially a self taught rider, and I have to admit to myself I'm not all that great. Sure, I can stay on my horse and we can walk down the road OK. But I'm at the point where I want to not just be "ok", but I want to be GOOD. And I want to have the confidence that i know what I'm doing. 
Which is why, after many years, I am going to start taking lessons from a Western Dressage instructor. For me, having a balanced/centered seat I think will improve my riding...and I think that someone trained in dressage is likely the best candidate to teach me. I really actually want to do endurance, but I can see the significance of proper seat and communication and how they will enhance my riding.
I understand the historical importance of dressage, however I don't really give a lick about it. It's 2016 and battles aren't fought on horses. Nor (for the most part) are horses treated the same we they were 100+ years ago. I just want to do what's right for me & my horse, same as the OP should be doing. 
If she wants to hit the trails and forget the dressage training,that's totally up to her. That's what i did many years ago, and now I'm going back to the basics. Everyone is different...this thread is awesome though and I really like to hear everyone's opinions! Very enlightening. It is a snow day here...so time to saddle up the skid steer and get to work!!


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

bsms said:


> So...when you buy a book on "dressage", or go to an instructor who says they are a "dressage instructor", are you content to learn barrel racing?
> 
> Do you believe, for one moment, that the OP is getting lessons in western riding?
> 
> ...


I would surely go to my dressage instructor to learn the basics of barrel racing. She can teach a correct flying lead change, and good bend through the horses rib cage.

Dressage is her main thing, but she has competed on the lower levels of many disciplines.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I went from what is described as basic dressage into gymkhana and it was my understanding of dressage that turned a racing pony into a top games pony because I was able to train her to turn off my leg cues, change leads at the lightest command, stop, go and turn in a collected balanced way that made her far faster where it mattered than less schooled ponies
Whatever the old military people might have done with the forward seat has zero relevance to how a modern day show jumper or Eventer rides - they're constantly going from '2 point' to '3 point' depending on what they're doing in relation to the fences at any given time.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

jaydee said:


> Whatever the old military people might have done with the forward seat has zero relevance to how a modern day show jumper or Eventer rides - they're constantly going from '2 point' to '3 point' depending on what they're doing in relation to the fences at any given time.


Agree- because the original Littauer's forward seat had to evolve as the courses and horses modernized. bsms refuses to acknowledge this. Riders can still ride in a forward seat, but using dressage exercises are necessary. Seat and leg is important. George Morris explains. 

George Morris on Clashing Aids | The Horse Magazine – Australia's Leading Equestrian Magazine


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Whatever the old military people might have done with the forward seat has zero relevance to how a modern day show jumper or Eventer rides - they're constantly going from '2 point' to '3 point' depending on what they're doing in relation to the fences at any given time.


That is where you aren't quite correct. The Cavalry trained to, or had to by circumstance, traverse the countryside, cross streams, jump creeks and stone walls on horses that could do it well, like Custer's two TB's, and those they couldn't jump as well.
When I studying "The School of the Soldier" we had no certified instructors, just CW Reenactors who bought the manuel from the 1850's and put it into practice. 
There was a Spring warmup every March 2 hours away from us by, what was at that time Premiere Cavalry Reenactment group in the nation, Carl Luthen's 7th IL Cavalry. He had hundreds of members from all over the place, all men, but the warmup was an invitational to other Reenactment units. We only could make it twice, and only to the Saturday warmup.
We (wisely) rode with the "beginners", but we learned SO MUCH about close order drill. Close order drill wasn't a way to pass the time, it was a way to methodically move Cavalrymen in a group so that they could fight as a Regiment, as a Battalion, as a Company, and as an individual.
Everything we did had a reason, even those things that didn't seem like horse training, such as the correct way to mount a horse with a carbine. (You slung the strap in front of your neck, and mounted, and thus didn't slap the rifle onto your horse.)
To mount as a group, you counted off, 2's, and the odds marched forward 1/2 length, and then everybody mounted at the same time, then the evens marched forward.
"Dressing" meant to match the stirrups to the rider next to you, and often we touched stirrups, even riding together at a canter. NOT moving together with an order at the gallop, especially, meant chaos on the field.
We learned how to move from a line to by 4's, by 2's, and in single file. Following orders to pull (sabers), meant that you pulled it out of the sheath about 8inches, and then, on "sabers" we pulled it out completely, then rest the hilt on your right thigh. To return (sabers) you (often, and in parade) saluted towards and above the horse's poll, then bent your right elbow outwards and practically touched your nose with the hilt. To return sabers, you returned the saber with eight inches out, then on "sabers" pushed it the rest of the way in.
Draw pistols was similar.
We learned to march at all gaits, to ride as a group sideways, the "oblique" and you point your horse's nose to the neck of the horse next to you.
You had to think like the soldier, and you horse HAD to listen to you, or you were in trouble and couldn't do the sport. 
We always had a drill on weekends in the morning. If you couldn't control your horse in the drill, you couldn't ride in the battle. (Small "farby" events would let someone ride, anyway, and that's where we witnessed most of the horse and rider accidents.)
What was especially neat and rather historic was that the IL 7th got their horses from all over the place, just the Union Cavalry in 1864-5 did, and during the Indian Wars, where they continued to trade for horses with the Pawnee, and other friendly tribes.
The US Cavalry based their knowledge on Napoleonic war tactics, which was what was taught at West Point.
The Generals at the start of the American Civil War ALL graduated from West Point, and many of them had been in the Mexican War of the 1940's, like General Lee.
I am a sincere believer in The Scientific Method. If you are attending Public School, you will not have heard of it, because public schools are now told NOT to teach it. According to the scientific method, when you try something once, MAYBE it works. If you try it successfully 3x, it probably works. If you try it again, and it fails, you reassess your variables to see if you duplicated what previously worked. If you have trials and errors, you pick it apart to see if there might be something good.
Trying something once successfully is called "beginner's luck." Trying something successful 99% of the time is called marketing a good to the public. (There are always lemons.)
The American Indian, especially the Eastern tribes, were quite happy with their lives when the colonists arrived. Many of them realized that many of the Europeans brought a better way to live, and they intermarried and assimiliated. This is why I have Cherokee in my lineage, along with British, Scottish, German, Croatian and French.
Don't even MENTION Jamestown! The men who settled there were "gentlemen", who grew up with a silver spoon, and were looking for gold, therefore they didn't have a clue how to grow food and harvest and store it.
The Plymouth colony suffered from an experiment with socialism and had many sloths who didn't pull their weight. They fixed that, encouraged capitalism, to sell your extras and the colony thrived. And...there is was also Squanto.
I will entertain lots of new ideas in horse training. I can, however smell a skunk when I read about some method that encourages training that I have witnessed to fail. I do discriminate.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

You're missing my point Corporal - I wasn't saying that things done by the Cavalry were of no use to us now but that the style of riding in 2 point all the time when negotiating a jumping course or open land that had obstacles that needed to be jumped no longer has a place in modern day show jumping or cross country jumping.
Your '3 point/full seat' is your driving seat and also the one to use for most effect when you need to collect the horse up to set it up correctly for a jump or even a sharp turn
If you look at William Fox Pitt here, between the fences he's got his weight off his horses back, when he approaches the fence he sits down to send the horse forward and at times when the type of fence demands he's even leaning right back in old fashioned hunting style




 
And that horse, especially given that William is such a tall rider, performs 100% better, and covers the ground 100% better because the rider knows what he's doing and can give the horse the best advantage.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Interesting. I guess I read your post wrong. =D


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Corporal: Thanks for the post about your training, that was fascinating stuff.

Jaydee: I had to laugh because Fox-Pitt is one I've always thought had such an unorthodox style that would only work for him (others have commented this about his riding also). While he is an excellent horseman and effective rider, he is so tall and I don't think others should emulate his style? I know that wasn't your point, but it is humorous to me that he is a rather extreme example. 

Updownrider: Your link to the article on Morris was very interesting.
George Morris on Clashing Aids | The Horse Magazine – Australia's Leading Equestrian Magazine
I'm going to agree with what he says in the beginning and partially disagree with what he says at the end. I believe he is right that it is a huge problem to attempt to teach a horse push and pull, stop and go, and it was my initial training with those who had this philosophy that helped me create some problems I had to undo with horses later on. I had not heard it put so clearly before, and I thank you for this article. Especially with reactive horses, people find it very difficult to not overface them by believing there must be an opposing force in order to get the horse to use his body correctly. 

It is this type of philosophizing that dressage is so famous for using even at the lowest levels, but that many times is incorrect for the situation, the horse, the rider, and does not necessarily build a foundation but might actually hinder a foundation being built. Ideas that people will insist are correct and are working even though it takes a type of magical belief to see what progress and beauty they are progressing toward in supposedly miniscule steps. In that respect I've seen a parallel between lower level dressage and Parelli. 

What I disagree with at the end is that it is necessarily sloppy to continue this way (without opposing/conflicting aids)...as long as the horse has been taught body control in an alternate way, which Morris may not understand due to his heavily english riding influences. Many great western trainers have extremely fine tuned body control without "opposing aids." There are many horses that will do better if the aids are left applied one at a time and if the horse is never ridden "on contact." I believe a real horseman will take this into consideration and adapt to what the horse needs, and if it makes a horse nervous or uncomfortable to have bit contact they will ride without it.

Perhaps I am not understanding Morris' meaning of "on the bit," but I believe I do because I've seen him on video trying to force a horse forward into opposing aids, a horse that was clearly uncomfortable with it and I don't think the horse would be happy long term being ridden that way. Because I've seen other horses ridden that way and have done it myself under the tutelage of trainers, I don't believe in that technique anymore.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> You're missing my point Corporal - I wasn't saying that things done by the Cavalry were of no use to us now but that the style of riding in 2 point all the time when negotiating a jumping course or open land that had obstacles that needed to be jumped no longer has a place in modern day show jumping or cross country jumping...


I never said it did have a place in modern showjumping. But then, modern show jumping and endurance racing aren't exactly the same thing, either.

But it is indisputable that the forward seat, sometimes called the American Military Seat in the US, was NOT based on dressage. Nor did it teach a dressage position, and it did not teach to switch back and forth between a dressage seat and a jump seat. It used the FORWARD system of riding and considered it complete.

The point being - and this seems to keep getting dropped by people getting all upset that someone does not worship dressage - is that there is more than one good, balanced, effective way to ride a horse. You can be a good rider and a good horseman without ever taking a single dressage lesson. 

My point does go a bit further, to say the approach to riding used in dressage is not suitable for trail riding:

"_*In all the work, even at the halt*, the Horse must be “on the bit”. A Horse is said to be “on the bit” when the neck is more or less raised and arched according to the stage of training and the extension or collection of the pace, accepting the bridle with a light and consistent soft submissive contact. *The head should remain in a steady position, as a rule slightly in front of the vertical*, with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck, and no resistance should be offered to the Athlete_."

Those are not my ignorant perceptions of dressage. It comes directly from the FEI on what constitutes dressage: "_*In all the work, even at the halt*, *the Horse must be “on the bit”.*

_That is a standard IN ALL THE WORK that is useless for trail riding. One rarely wants the head nearly vertical. After all, that is like putting blinders on a horse - and in front of the horse!

It amazes me that so many on this thread believe a rider is harmed by not studying dressage, and that such study is a requirement to ride well. It means virtually every horse in the western US is ridden poorly, since quality dressage instruction is virtually unknown out here. It denies the history of riding, world wide. It denies the Mongols, the Arabs and the Plains Indians greatness as riders. It means the US Cavalry taught people bad riding.

" _There are many horses that will do better if the aids are left applied one at a time and if the horse is never ridden "on contact._"

True. This may astonish people on this thread, but I have no use for a 'high level horse'. I don't show. I don't compete. I don't give a rat's rear end about being "subtle" with a cue because horses have no born interest in subtlety. They want CLARITY.

For a turn, the horse doesn't want to guess. An opening rein, with some slack in it, puts virtually no pressure on the horse, yet offers a clear signal. THAT is what the horse wants. Moving one hand 6 inches to the side costs me nothing and gives the horse a clear yet painless cue. That leaves us both happy.

Outside of the arena, which is where endurance racing takes place, no one is judging you on how little you move to give a cue. The horse doesn't care! All the horse needs is to know what you want.

As for on the bit - yegads! Does anyone think horses really ENJOY having their faces kept in one position, and their eyesight limited to the ground immediately ahead of them? WHY? What would make ANYONE call that "good riding"?

Good for the sport of dressage? OK. I have no problem with that. If you enjoy it and your horse doesn't mind it, then have at it and have fun. I'm happy for you!

But good for all riding? A requirement for all riding? Millions of western riders have no trouble riding their horses without it. Either we all suck, or it is overrated. I obviously vote for the latter. It is a bit shocking to find out that many here believe we all are horrible riders, flopping around like drunk sailors in port on unbalanced horses.

This is the measured pressure in the mouth with an experienced dressage rider:











At rest, about 4 lbs of pressure on both reins. With a half-halt, just to tell the horse to get ready, it is 8 lbs of pressure.

Take a look at the curb bit below:










If someone did that to MY horse, I'd pull him off!

I realize it may be needed - it apparently IS needed - for dressage riders to ride dressage. But it most certainly is NOT needed to ride a horse on a trail, or for endurance riding. Why train to do something that is counterproductive to the end result you want?

Seriously, someone who has the horse as their teacher will NOT ride like that. If the OP is taking lessons to learn how to ride like that, and her goal is endurance riding, then maybe she should stop taking lessons from a dressage instructor and take them instead from her horse!

BTW - George Morris wrote a book where he contradicts his article with almost every page. And Littauer's teachings were not based on winning at show jumping, but riding and jumping in the real world.

The idea that constant contact is needed for good riding is contradicted by the experience of millions of western riders.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

As I see it.....it boils down to this:

A rider is like an artist....they have the picture in their head of how the horse should look, and they work to form it into that shape. 

Some of us live our entire lives writing with a pencil, and NEVER draw a single picture....some of us make exquisite drawings.....some take art lessons, but never quite get the hang of it.....same with horses.

AND, just because WE can't DRAW, does NOT mean we put down others who CAN!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms - I don't think you have a true understanding of what 'contact' means
It does not mean collection
A horse has to be compliant with 'contact' to be able to 'collect' 
A properly trained horse 'seeks' the contact rather than the rider forcing the horse into contact and the horse should be soft and not resisting/pulling against the contact
A horse can be on a long rein with its head down low but still have contact with the bit


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

What is wrong with subtle cues?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Gottotrot - I chose Fox Pitt because he is so tall that almost any horse looks small under him but because he is so balanced and does his best to help the horse he's one of the worids top eventing riders
The other thing I pointed out - sitting down on the approach to the fence is just standard riding
bsms - there is no way that rider could do that with your horse. Years of training goes into producing a horse and rider that can work at that level - and it should not be done with Rolkurr and doesn't need to be done with Rolkurr
But dressage horse don't work in the sort of extreme collected frame all the time, surely you don't thing they do? When they go out hacking they're not doing passage and piaffe along the road


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

This is more like the sort of dressage the OP is likely to be doing if she works at it for the next few years on a young green horse
Simple basic stuff that anyone should be able to work towards on any type of horse
I do not understand this concept that everyone that does dressage lessons is performing at the level of the top elite horses or ever will reach that level.




 



 
NOTE These videos are not for critique - just examples of the tests at low level


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

bsms - No method in riding is complete. Learning ends when you think something is complete. If Littauer's method was complete he would not have needed to revise his books. But he did. From the revised edition of Common Sense Horsemanship, Littauer writes in the preface: 



> On the third page of this book, describing the advent of Forward
> Riding, I say ". . . in any transition period, misconceptions and con-
> fusion of ideas are natural. It will probably take another generation
> before all the new principles are assembled into a perfectly logical
> ...


Bolding mine.


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

bsms said:


> The goal of dressage is not a horse who uses its body properly - which race horses do, BTW, and cutting horses, and they do it without collection. There is no physiological reason why collection makes sense independent of humans valuing it.


Yes, as a matter of fact there is a physiological reason why collection makes sense.
For one, the hind end muscles / glutes have much more potential than the shoulder. To use a human analogy, any rock climber will be able to tell you that you will never do well if you try to pull yourself up, no matter how hard you train and how strong your arm and shoulder muscles are. In climbing, the legs have to do the majority of the work. I use rock climbing here cause that's what I know, but even for things like e.g. lifting heavy weights, it is a lot healthier and more efficient to lift from your knees, where the thigh muscles do the work, that lift from your arms or back with straight legs. You will be sure to wreck your back if you do that too often.

The second reason why collection makes sense is that the construction of the hind leg allows "springiness" (impulsion) through the hip, stifle (analogous to the human knee), hock (analogous to the human heel), and a little bit through the pastern. The front end does not. The only joints where there is a bit of give to cushion impact is in the elbow and a little bit in the pastern, but both the shoulder and the knee (analogue to the human wrist) are anatomically unable to. This is also one of the reasons why suspensory ligament injury is much more common in the front than in the back.
It does make sense that the extra weight from the rider should predominantly be picked up by the hind, not the front.

Admittedly, I know little about Western riding, and I know even less about the philosophy behind cutting or barrel racing. But it seems to me that the classic stock horse anatomy, horses with a big butt, often downhill and kind of straight through the hind leg, does not lend itself to bearing extra weight on the hind.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

This has to be the funniest statement of the year so far

"The goal of dressage is not a horse who uses its body properly"

As one who actually takes dressage lessons, that is what it is all about, as it is for 90% of people who take 'ordinary level' lessons. Our whole aim is to get my mare using her body properly, so she is strong through her muscles and capable of carrying me and herself comfortably..

Not like this, which is how she likes to carry, head up, hollowing through the back, making her weak









Not like this, which is what her last owner THOUGHT dressage horse should do, overbent, curled up, unable to work nicely









But more like this, and this is the best pic I could find, this is low level dressage starting, she is accepting the contact, starting to work through her back, this makes her stronger, improves her way of going...


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

:shrug::shrug:Can you guys see the pics, not showing up for me


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Yep I can see the pics, it's lovely!


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I see Western trainers encouraging HQ engagement. Clinton Anderson teaches you to turn on the HQ's on the lunge like a roll back, where the horse "sits" and turns on the back legs. He will ask the horse he is training to redo it, if the horse turns on the forehand (front legs.)
The horse, on his own will carry himself correctly, more or less. The horse needs training WHEN YOU RIDE HIM,. Otherwise, he will NOT "lift from the knees", and, instead, be lazy and "just use his arms."
When you ride a horse with collection correctly trained, it is such a joy. You feel like you are sitting on Superhorse who takes you where you want to go in style. And, you won't be looking at your horse as a 20yo who cannot be ridden anymore because he is collapsing his front legs when you ride him, since they are worn out!!!! Don't believe that it doesn't happen. YOU just haven't seen it, yet.
If they are trained incorrectly to collect, forced to set the head and held back by the bit, they will fight you. You also see this in gaited horses. Some people think that their gaited horse will not ever trot. Mine live in the back yard, and they do trot! Our winters are either frozen, too much ice, or mud. I still turn my horses out with bad footing, unless we have had an ice storm. I often see them trotting instead of gaiting. The trot and walk is more controllable. I don't see them stretch out their necks and hollow their backs when the footing is lousy in turnout. Instead, I see their backs roach up and they keep their feet close to center so they don't slip and fall.
Dressage shouldn't be feared. It has a lot tools, and you can read about them and apply them in your backyard. If a Western trainer uses Dressage and *doesn't give it credit,* but *slaps his/her own brand on it,* I can still recognize the principles being applied.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I've had such a love/hate relationship with dressage. Once I thought dressage was the music and meaning of riding. I think things began to change when someone randomly said something about how the upper level dressage horses had such huge shoulder muscles. Someone else then wondered why the shoulders and necks were so big if the horse was driving off the hindquarters...wouldn't that make the hindquarters larger instead? Once it was pointed out to me, I was able to see that many of the horses were pulling or throwing themselves up with the front end rather than leaning back and pushing with the hind. It made me wonder about the training and about how sore the horses were and what they'd done to learn to move in that way. It would be one thing if this happened with some poorly trained horses, but these were the horses winning the biggest competitions in the world. The ones everyone is supposed to emulate.

Around that time I started hearing about Rollkur and then had an opportunity to visit the World Equestrian Games and watched the warmups for the dressage ring. This was how I'd dreamed of riding myself, and it left a bad taste in my mouth to see how they "warmed up." It was like when I first saw the western trainer I thought was so amazing frantically yanking on her curb bit to "soften" her horse in the show ring whenever the judge's back was turned. Disillusionment.

Try explaining to some smart but non-dressage educated people about how collection works and why it helps a horse. Doing this gave me lots of food for thought, and gradually I began adjusting my ideas. If you only hear about the virtues of dressage from people who are training in it or giving lessons in it, it's like hearing about what a person is like from his mother. There's some truth but a lot of bias. I've been trying to expand my horizons and learn what about dressage is good and what is fantasy.


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

bsms said:


> The question the OP asked is simple: "Do you believe every rider should do dressage"?
> 
> Not, "Can dressage lessons be a good introduction to riding?". Not "Can lots of people learn something while taking dressage lessons?". But does EVERY RIDER need to take dressage lessons in order to become a good rider, or will trail riding and not taking dressage lessons be "bad for me as a rider".
> 
> ...


You're getting kind of hung up on this bsms, and you are probably quite right, everyone doesn't need dressage lessons. Would I recommend it. Absolutely. Anyone can get on a horse and 'ride'. They know nothing about horses or tack, some don't even see their horse as having feelings or moods or, god forbid, pain. Many work through it and somewhere along the way get lessons or training in some form, but its pretty hit-or-miss and many horses suffer unnecessarily. Training or lessons in basic dressage reduces the incidence of abuse/or ignorance if you prefer. And I like to call 'basic dressage' "pony club training" it is much lower level than 'dressage' but teaches a rider their ABCs.

And the point you are overlooking while you are hung up on this is that the OP is a novice with a novice THOROUGHBRED stallion and you are advising her to go out on the trail with neither having the first clue about anything, and the first time there is a problem there is no training to fall back on. And yeah so some find it boring, I bet soldiers find 'drill' boring too, but when everything turns to custard that 'drill' is what might keep them alive.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Gottatrot - At the upper levels a horse that's built more 'uphill' will perform the moves that demand extreme collection and elevation more easily - that's not to say it isn't using a powerful rear end to push forwards from
Things like Rolkurr have left a bad stain on the sport of dressage but it is banned and it is frowned on, a ban on draw reins is already creeping in so eventually there should be a more emphasis on good training and less dependency on artificial aids
But don't forget - the people that ride at that level are a tiny percentage of the riding community who just use the basics of dressage to improve their horses for whatever they do


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

ShirtHotTeez said:


> And the point you are overlooking while you are hung up on this is that the OP is a novice with a novice THOROUGHBRED stallion and you are advising her to go out on the trail with neither having the first clue about anything, and the first time there is a problem there is no training to fall back on. And yeah so some find it boring, I bet soldiers find 'drill' boring too, but when everything turns to custard that 'drill' is what might keep them alive.


Very good point, I had nearly forgotten the poor op here, I bet she is glad she asked now. :wink:



jaydee said:


> But don't forget - the people that ride at that level are a tiny percentage of the riding community who just use the basics of dressage to improve their horses for whatever they do


Exactly, the Op was not talking about high level dressage, but the basics, very few get to ride the high level stuff


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Yeah...now what WAS the question???


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_Training or lessons in basic dressage reduces the incidence of abuse/or ignorance if you prefer._"

How about "_Good lessons reduce the incidence of abuse/or ignorance_"? Why would THAT be an incorrect statement?

The lessons I took were from a woman whose experience was primarily western pleasure - you know, the discipline English riders hate? But her focus was riding light, and working with the horse and helping the horse figure things out and observing and responding to the horse. No collection. Slack reins. I was told many times to "Get on your pockets" although I never really did. Leg position was not directly under the rider - she understood many of us would end up trail riding and not showing in WP. Almost no contact, and NEVER any sustained contact. But excellent lessons in understanding the horse and teaching the horse to respond to light cues.

But I also reject the idea that riders who do not take lessons are bums, or hurting their horses. There are plenty of riders who take lessons and have no respect for their horse. I've watched a dressage lesson at the closest place to me that offers them, and I'd have pulled the students off the horse if I owned the horse! THOSE lessons were creating bad riders.

And it is no good saying, "Well, but good lessons would help". Of course they would - the qualifying word "good" means it helps. Otherwise, it would be bad. But there are certainly professional instructors who teach bad riding.

People either care about horses or do not. Those who do, will learn - and can learn from the horse. Those who don't, won't learn. You cannot teach a rider to care. 

The guy who came out and got his first ride on Trooper got a few minutes instruction from me. He spent the next 2.5 hours riding - walk, trot and canter - and watching Bandit act up and Bandit's rider (a friend who grew up on horses) dealing with it. They rode and talked about horses...and flying (two were pilots)...and the desert...and other things. But Bandit's rider gave the new guy a good lesson on how to listen to a horse and work WITH the horse.

The new rider is a nice guy who quickly came to appreciate that horses are individuals, with personalities, and good points and bad points and that a rider interacts with the horse and doesn't just sit and command. If he continues riding - and he wants to when the weather improves - he'll learn from Trooper and probably from Bandit more about understanding a horse.

If he continues riding, maybe someday he'll take a lesson in jumping. Or maybe in reining. He doesn't seem likely to sign up for dressage lessons. So what? People who jump know how to ride and treat a horse well - or not. Same with reiners. Same with dressage. ANY lessons will help IF they are taught by someone who cares about the horse and who knows riding.

But Trooper came from a friend's ranch. My friend has been riding for about 60 years. He has around 50 horses now. He never had a formal lesson in his life. He has ridden uncounted thousands of miles in rough country. He's ridden 50+ miles in a day many times. When I visited him, his son took a green horse for a ride to town - 25 miles away. Got a slice of pizza for lunch, then rode the horse back. After 50 miles, the horse was a little less green. Probably didn't "collect" the horse or try to, but my friend and his sons would be surprised to find out they know nothing about horses and need instruction in dressage to learn how to ride!

This used to be an area where my friend worked regularly. He now has an allotment about 20 miles away:








​ 
"_the OP is a novice with a novice THOROUGHBRED stallion and you are advising her to go out on the trail"_

She asked about buying the stallion and was told it would be a bad idea. The OWNER of the stallion would have to give her permission to go ride on a trail, and I'm willing to let the OWNER who is there decide.

All of my initial riding came on a very independent and spooky Arabian mare. Yes, I picked up some bad habits. I also learned a lot about working with a horse who would NOT be dominated, but WOULD try her best if asked. And yes, we did it in the desert and on roads.

In truth, riding her in circles in an arena would have proven nothing. She felt safe in an arena. She almost never acted up in an arena. It was OUTSIDE the arena that she would challenge me, or bolt, or spin, or jump sideways.

Bandit is a gelding, not a stallion. He's half Arabian and half mustang, and NOT ready for a beginner to ride him. Trooper is 3/4 Arabian and 1/4 Appy, a gelding, and his original owner never had to 'break' him. He was one of those horses who could carry a beginning rider on his first ride. Lilly was an Arabian mare. She was 'broken' by a professional after we bought her. I rode her as green broke for a couple of months, then our youngest daughter started riding her. If Mia was the stereotypical "Arabian mare", Lilly was the opposite. As a green horse, she would have been an excellent choice for a new rider - and was.

And yes, a beginning rider CAN ride lightly and not abuse the horse's back or mouth. It is not that hard, or at least, not that hard if you are riding 'western' and willing to listen to your horse. If folks have a different experience in giving dressage lessons, then maybe they should ask themselves why.

"_Yeah...now what WAS the question???_"

"*I just prefer riding out of the arena because I don't have to be so precise, but is this bad for me as a rider? Do you believe every rider should do dressage...*" - underlining mine, from post #1

THAT is the question I was answering. Trail riding is not bad for you as a rider, and not EVERY rider needs to take dressage lessons, as her dressage instructor is telling her. Dressage is A WAY of riding, not THE ONE WAY.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms - Let me try to explain this as simply as I can because you don't seem to be able to grasp it
In Europe good 'English style/European style' riding lessons are exactly the same as low level dressage lessons. 
You learn to how to sit correctly - no long stirrups, no super short stirrups but what we'd call GP (general purpose) length
You learn how to hold your reins properly, how to establish a contact from your hand to the bit that's not so light as the horse can't feel it but not so hard that he can't move forward
You learn that the reins aren't there to balance yourself off
You learn that the reins aren't the same as the handlebars on a bike
You learn how to ask the horse to go forwards at the speed you require when you require it using your body and your legs and your hands
You learn how to turn the horse in a different direction and how to control the angle of that turn using your body, legs and hands
You learn how to halt the horse and how to transition up and down through the different paces
You learn how to be balanced at all paces, how to post the trot, how to sit the canter in full seat, later on you'll learn how to sit in 2 point
You'll learn how to ask the horse to step backwards
You'll learn how to use your legs, body and hands to ask for simple lateral moves - turn on the forehand, leg yields 
If you can do this correctly you can compete in a low level dressage competition
Also
When someone has mastered these things then a good trainer, yard manager, owner or whoever is responsible for the Health and Safety on the property will consider someone a safe proposition to be allowed out on open trails without risking liability action if anything goes wrong and an insurance company refusing to cover because they failed to ensure a rider wasn't fully prepared to control any horse under their supervision


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Bsms

Jeez dude you really have the bit between your teeth on this one. 
Ok so we accept that in any discipline there are bad trainers. Sad but true.
Nobody is calling anybody a bum. 
You can love a horse and treat it cruelly, with the best intentions and no knowledge there is a world of harm that can be done to varying degrees. Just look at some of the things newbies ask on here. And I doubt thats the worst of it

Just because the OP was told it was not a good idea to buy this horse, doesn’t mean she won’t. If she wants it she will buy it. A lot of you already know my thoughts on newbies with OTTBs so I won’t go into that here.

A lot of people learn to ride by just getting on and moving. I used to ride with a girl who had a part arab steel grey pony (long time ago now) who was ‘self taught’/not taught at all. Loved her pony, always giving it treats. She tended to be heavy-handed and pony would star-gaze. We would ride out along the roads. If her pony got nappy we would have to swap ponies to ride home, she simply did not know how to use legs and seat, it was all hands. He looked a totally different pony when I rode him. That is just one example and I have seen dozens more.

Perhaps It is just ‘dressage’ that you are hung up on. Think of it more as ‘pony club’ where people who haven’t grown up with horses can fairly quickly learn the basics so they can join in the fun of whatever discipline they are attracted to. 'Dressage' is generally accepted as high level dressage. In some places its simply called 'engllish riding'
And remember too. Outside of USA western discipline is chosen like cross country, or DRESSAGE or show-jumping, whereas where you are quite often it is a way of life. I imagine in some areas for a rider to choose dressage over western pleasure they would be thought ‘odd’. But for most of the European world it is the Spanish Riding School of Vienna that is held up as the elite.

:gallop:


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Reading the first post again I'm not even sure the OP means Endurance - 'ridden some of the course and watched the competition' makes me think it might be a 'lost in translation' thing and she's talking about 'le trec' which is similar to a Trail riding competition and competed outdoors and sometimes indoors


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Sounds like this is similar to when people ask, "Should I feed my horse grain?" But they're in the US and they might mean complete feed or they might mean alfalfa pellets, and people give advice not to feed grain or don't feed more than a pound or two, when the person might have a skinny horse with no teeth that needs ten pounds or more of pellets in the form of roughage. So the advice is based on the perception of the question.

So a person from Europe asks, "Should I take dressage lessons as a foundation for riding?" And people answer based on their perception of the question, but others are saying that the real question is, "Should I learn to sit in a saddle, steer and stop a horse before going out on the trail?" The answer to one can be debated, as seen in this thread. For the other, most people will say yes, especially if you're riding a stallion in a populated area. 

In parts of the US it can be fine to go out after a brief lesson on how to handle a horse, especially if you're on a well trained horse and have someone who will ride with you and teach as you go. I've certainly taken people out like that. I wouldn't want someone out alone if they were green and the horse wasn't going to take care of them, but I'd let anyone take out a couple horses I know, including Beau who is a large, unflappable horse known to move back underneath riders that are slipping, to refuse to trot if the rider is unsteady, and to ignore extraneaous cues. Beau isn't going to teach you how to ride, but you'll be safe unless you try to leap off of him. 

To learn from a horse, you need to have someone at least give you some basics to start (either in person for from a book) which a good horse teacher will reinforce. In my experience certain horses are usually good at teaching a person one or two things such as how to keep your hands light or not keep your hands too high.
Some horses can teach you many things, but those usually can't even be ridden until you're a more advanced rider.

It's a good discussion regardless of whether we've taken the question out of context or not.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> bsms - Let me try to explain this as simply as I can because you don't seem to be able to grasp it
> In Europe good 'English style/European style' riding lessons are exactly the same as low level dressage lessons......


Maybe I should use crayons in posting, since you don't seem to grasp things very well either:

The question asked by the OP was:

""*I just prefer riding out of the arena because I don't have to be so precise, but is this bad for me as a rider? Do you believe every rider should do dressage...*"

Trail riding is NOT bad for you as a rider. Period. You can be a bad trail rider or a good one, but nothing about trail riding will turn a good rider into a bad one. If someone cannot trail ride, either they are not a decent rider or their horse is not a decent horse.

Do I believe "*every rider should do dressage"*? No. I learned using a forward seat, and it worked quite well. Nothing like a dressage seat, but a perfectly functional and effective seat for riding horses:








​
The US Cavalry did NOT teach a dressage seat, and their riders did fine. Western riders do not use a dressage seat - at least, I don't think dressage, even "low level dressage lessons" teach you to ride "on your pockets" - but that doesn't mean western riders are bad riders abusing their horses.

I do not CARE if European riders are normally taught dressage as their beginning lessons. The question was 'is that necessary?', and the answer - as shown all around the world - is no. It is NOT necessary.

I haven't met ANYONE who learned to ride by taking lessons in dressage or by learning a dressage position or approach, but I have met plenty of good riders who work well with their horses. By definition, what HAS been done CAN be done, and therefor is NOT impossible.

The shameful thing is that so many who did learn that way believe it is the ONLY way to learn to ride, and continue believing it in spite of the experience of millions of riders and horses elsewhere.

Last post by me on this thread. The dressage queens will remain dressage queens, incapable of admitting there is any other way to learn or to ride. Pretty darn intolerant, but that is what makes them dressage queens - and part of what gives dressage a bad reputation in the rest of the riding world.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Many of us have posted earlier that we were self taught riders, but with basic, and I mean very basic dressage instruction, became better riders, and our horses better trail partners.

Sometimes on a tricky trail, you better be **** sure you and your horse are precise. It beats falling off the edge of a cliff. 

bsms, I may bot always agree with you, but I would never be as condescending to you as you are to others; nor would never I call you a name such as 'backyard buckaroo'. In fact, with your attitude, you have degraded your dialogue on this issue. Much like presidential debates when mudslinging and name calling are relied upon.

I'm not a dressage queen, and detest the label. I'm a jack of all trades and a master of none. I like to try different things with my horse, maybe throw in a show here and there, and always, ALWAYS, hit the trails. We as a team may fail at some things, but we do, as a team, excel at others. But at least I TRY. Do you? Or is it only one way for you?


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Subbing, to come back and read later. Unfortunately, am wound up in Social Security issues and not had time to read all the threads of interest to me.

So, I probably should not interject my opinions here so late in this thread, but ....

I keep this book in my car, and took it in waiting rooms to read when I wait (such as the Social Security Office hahaha), also Doctor appointment for my Mom, an myself.









In it the author uses a stock saddle much of the time, and proposes sometimes going a little smaller in seat size, not too small but not so roomy as most prefer in a western saddle. Her's has a deep seat and her leg is not so far in front of her to contribute to a chair seat.

Recently, I had opportunity to get a well used RR barrel saddle for very low price and jumped at the chance. Even though it is a 15" where I have sold off all others except for 16" seats.

It fits me like a glove without being too tight, is very comfortable, but I don't know what I look like in it LOL. I love my position in it, and it caused me to recall that book.

Also recently I got a new used book, no pic, The Hackamore Reinsman by Ed Connell. Which is my current waiting room book. 

Here is a pic of a former waiting room book:









All are in pretty much in line with each other as far as fit for horse and rider in whatever manner they do, or do not address the issue. (ie words or illustrations).

The other thing that made me post here so unprepared, is a reference to capitalization of the word dressage. I believe it was a long ago post from bsms.

Capitalized Dressage, and dressage seem to conjure up different images, or if not maybe they should. Competition uses Dressage, while outside of that uses (or may use) dressage.

All training and learning for horse and rider is dressage by definition. I think that is what I got out of that post. And that is how I have come to think of it. Dressage (only capitalized here for grammar) is a great thing in any and every riders background and foundation. In my opinion anyway.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

farahmay said:


> ................... Basically I was never taught to ride correctly, i was self taught in a way, because it was 'okay everybody trot' and we trot in circles until the lesson is over, me learning by reading online and watching videos of how it should be done.
> 
> Anyway, in August I started riding again after 7 months off, at a new barn. It is amazing, I'm a lot more stable in the saddle now than I ever was, ...............................................................


Two statements from the OP, remember her?

Self taught, in a way.....could stay on and learned as best she could.

Now having lessons dressage lessons, and is a lot more stable in the saddle than she ever was.

That is it, I bet she is developing independent seat and hands and may have an understanding of how to get a horse to go in some form of shape that will make it more comfortable and responsive to ride. 

Taking dressage lessons does not mean that one cannot do anything else, will give her the foundation to do anything that she wants. Does not have to be all lessons, one every now and again will keep her going and develop an important skill set.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms 
This OP by her own declaration is a relative beginner and riding a very green stallion
She darn well needs to be precise when giving it cues out on the trails or she's going to end up in a wreck with a ruined horse that doesn't belong to her
I'm afraid that being bored is not a good enough reason not to spend some time learning how to do things properly


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

BSMS. this seems to have become a peeing match with you. We are trying, very hard, to remain on point with what the OP has asked, using the information she has given us. Spiralling into lengthy cuts and pastes about whole world riding philosophies is unwarranted, here.

Being rude to Jaydee saying you need to pull out the crayons is beyond childish, IMHO.

Try to stay with the original post about her REAL issues, if you can.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

BSMS, I like you have no desire to show…. Ever. Again. I am at a point in my life where I just want a nice, fun ride that both my horse and myself can enjoy. To accomplish that my horse needs to have a quiet mind, be able to stop, walk, trot, canter, turn right, turn left, back up, go over, through and around where I point him all while remaining under my control.

Once I have that I suppose I could call it a day with his training because he fulfills everything I need in a horse. Even though we passed that goal a while back, and it makes him quite ridable, I still take him into the arena for a half hour before we go out and practice dressage, Vaquero style. 

Why? For a couple of reasons; Because it gets his brain engaged, calmed and listening to me so no crap pulled heading out, it also trained me, to train him to be a very soft horse and I want to reinforce that for both of us, because soft is how I like to ride. 

I can literally bring his head around to my leg using one finger on a draped rein if he is not creeped out and the amount of pressure it takes to do so in a real “situation” where he is tensed up is not much more. If I lay a foot in front of the girth, not bump or even press, but touch the foot on (without spurs) he puts that shoulder over. A lift of a rein using direct opposition behind the wither and he lightens the forehand in a turn and helped me in combination with timing and legs, to get him doing rapid flying lead changes out on the trails. Quick, automatic and clear cues. 

I bring this up not because because either of us is so spectacular or special, but because I wanted to point out that dressage training can have many practical applications. The foundations it provided made teaching some things that came in handy out on the trail, a bit easier for him to understand.

So what practical application does any of this have to do with trail riding? I know that you live out in the dessert, I live in an area that is characterized as “semi-arid desert” and looks mostly like this.









And a lot of the unmanaged trails we ride look like this









Or this









....so we encounter a lot of brush riding, navigating through juniper scrub and mesquite which has some rather large barbs on it. In those cases, the paths chosen are rarely straight and tend to weave a lot. Sometimes it seems for hours that all I am asking for from Oliver is constant leg yields and half halts, most often at speeds higher than a walk so as to avoid a sudden branch in the face or the barbs of a Mesquite ripping on my leg (and yes we have prickly pear, though he prefers to jump those). It is so much easier to simply lay a leg on lightly, shift my weight and get the desired response my hands hardly ever have to move anymore unless I am asking to refine his weight distribution. 

Less is more especially in our 100 degree summers with 70% humidity coming off the Gulf. 

Does every rider appreciate that or need it, probably not, but now that I have it I love the ability to make use of it, especially on the bi-weekly 15 mile rides we have worked up to. It is like the difference between driving an old pick up truck without power steering and driving a new Ram 350. They both get you where you want to go one just makes it a bit more comfortable. 

Good training or foundational dressage. Whatever you call it, I call it helpful. I am no expert in dressage, but I do value and respect it as both a riding and training tool. If that makes me a dressage princess, then so be it.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

I am mostly a jumper, a trail rider and somebody who just hoons around the fields on a tackless horse. What more should I need, right? 

Dressage lessons. I love my basic dressage lessons. More than anything, they make me aware of my own body and how to set my horse up for success - be it making that perfect turn which makes us approach a jump in good rhythm and trajectory, or sidepassing over a fallen log in the trails, or stopping on a dime from a faster gait to avoid an accident, or steering and bending with my seat and legs alone, when there are no reins and bridles to do it the lazy way. 

Jaydee is right - not only in England, but in other countries over the pond, too, basic dressage is just basic, effective riding, the first building block for anything else there is to come! Every horse and rider can do it up to a certain level, and every single one of them benefits from it.

Does this make me a Dressage queen? Pretty cool then! I make a splendid queen in my red breeches and bright t-shirts, with my wooly mammoth of a horse, who, so it seems, enjoys his rider attempting to be a bit more balanced and light on his back, while he, himself, does the same with his body. http://www.horseforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Reining, your photos are not coming up for me.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Fixed it, I think.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Saranda said:


> ...sidepassing over a fallen log in the trails, or stopping on a dime from a faster gait to avoid an accident, or steering and bending with my seat and legs alone, when there are no reins and bridles to do it the lazy way.


I've noticed that english riders (and I'm one of them) seem to feel that dressage = training = good riding, so therefore good riding we do is dressage. I don't think there will be any changing this for most, because I've felt that way myself in the past, and it all comes down to your personal definition of a word.

However, sidepassing is done as often in western (see trail classes), stopping on a dime is done often in western (see reining or cow horse classes), and riding without rein contact with seat and legs alone is practically a definition of most western riding. I learned flying lead changes in western lessons before taking dressage lessons. Learning things from dressage lessons doesn't mean these things belong to dressage anymore than light rein cues belong to reining (although perhaps their style of holding reins is unique). 

I just wonder why people have to say they're doing dressage to make themselves feel good about their riding. As if putting this label on it elevates it somehow. Once I saw that dressage was no more noble than any other discipline out there, be it reining, western pleasure, or jumping, I decided the label wasn't so special after all. 

I guess my criteria to call something dressage would be if someone could watch you riding and say to another spectator, "she's practicing dressage." If I see someone doing shoulder-in down the center line, I call it dressage because that's really the only discipline I know of that practices this skill. If I see someone doing smooth transitions between gaits, using their aids effectively and invisibly, stopping a horse nicely and getting them to use their body, I just call that riding because those are universal principles that don't belong to any particular subset. I've seen people riding well in all kinds of tack around the U.S. and in Australia, Japan, Iceland, Ireland, and Canada.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I have ridden a few horses here that were purely western trained and they fully understood and responded too exactly the same cues that I use for my English horses - who based on the type of training they've had qualify as 'dressage' trained.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

gottatrot, I call it dressage not because I'd think it's somehow superior (far from it - you wouldn't find me in dressage competitions, I'd die from a severe case of stiff upper lip there!), but because it's what we call it here. We either get novice (basics for complete beginners), jumping or dressage lessons and all purposeful riding sessions on the flat in which the rider concentrates on balance, self-carriage, contact, etc., is considered dressage, either basic level or higher, depending on the skillset of horse/rider.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

You may see western riders doing exactly the same things as English dressage horses in the arena, but the emphasis is a bit different and the equipment might throw you off.

What I like about Eitan Beth-Halachmy is the concepts of softness that he applies to get a response. In this video.... “Contact, is a private matter between the rider and the horse”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIILDJI-pE0

and this one is kind of fun too.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6NmkPn4H7XFCPNVKpReO1Q


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

As Cherie says in a sticky post - every time we have an interaction with a horse we are training it. Might be good or bad but in training we are educating it. In my day and age this was called 'schooling' the fact that we were in an arena or out on the trails didn't matter, we were teaching.

Now people think that 'dressage' is the word to use rather than 'schooling' doesn't matter All you are doing is using the French word for training a horse to be responsive to the rider's body signals. 

Doesn't matter whether you are riding western or English every time you get on a horse you are training it.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> Now people think that 'dressage' is the word to use rather than 'schooling' doesn't matter All you are doing is using the French word for training a horse to be responsive to the rider's body signals.


 Foxhunter, I like your definition. I had never thought of it that way, but I like it! "Schooling" has come to mean a rather intense correction, at least the way I have seen it used lately.


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