# building stamina/muscle in younger horses



## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

How old is she?

Each horse is different, but for me 1h45 is WAY too much for a youngster.
Short and sweet, keep her attention span. 
Stamina and muscle will come over time. If you try too much too soon, you'll just make her sore and irritable.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Depends what age you call a young horse?


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

2 years 8 months today 

i was not intending to work her for an hour and 45 minutes
i was on her for about an hour, mostly just walking ... short trots here and there
no more than 2 minutes trotting over the course of an hour

-- edit --
sorry - was not completely clear 
was expecting my neighbor to come over
he came over an hour late and i was about to put her up
decided to go ahead and get in her trotting work
so we put about a mile / maybe a mile and a half on her after the 1-hour easy walking
-- end edit --

sore and irritable is definitely not something i want
but she seems to handle everything in stride
even waits for me by the gate when she see's me
walks up to me to get her halter and lead on

she seems genuinely eager to get in her exercise


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

It is your decision to ride a horse that young, but how experienced is your neighbour? It doesn't matter if he's lighter, if he isn't balanced or experienced he may end up tiring her more than you think. She has to balance herself with another person up there, then balance an unbalanced person.

Quite honestly, I would be thinking 20-30 minutes exercise every other day, or every two days is more than enough, turn her away for a bit in the colder months/Spring and try to start again in Summer/Autumn next year.

She is still developing, and even walking with additional weight will be a lot for her.

Can you pony her from another horse on trail rides? That would be great exposure for her, and works her without stress of added weight on her joints.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

DuffyDuck said:


> It is your decision to ride a horse that young, but how experienced is your neighbour? It doesn't matter if he's lighter, if he isn't balanced or experienced he may end up tiring her more than you think. She has to balance herself with another person up there, then balance an unbalanced person.


he is much more experienced than i am, and has been riding for over 20 years 
her balance is expceptional




DuffyDuck said:


> Quite honestly, I would be thinking 20-30 minutes exercise every other day, or every two days is more than enough, turn her away for a bit in the colder months/Spring and try to start again in Summer/Autumn next year.


how about 2-3 days a week?
Thursday/Saturday/Sunday



DuffyDuck said:


> She is still developing, and even walking with additional weight will be a lot for her.
> 
> Can you pony her from another horse on trail rides? That would be great exposure for her, and works her without stress of added weight on her joints.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

jmike said:


> he is much more experienced than i am, and has been riding for over 20 years
> her balance is expceptional
> 
> 
> ...


 
If he has been riding for 20+ years then he should (I would think) have the experience to give you the answers you need. 2-3 days a week sounds fine with me, just keep an eye on her behaviour. If she starts to change from her willing self to sour, tail flick at the saddle etc then perhaps she is sore.

Keep in mind that she is still growing a heck of a lot, and there is no rush in training horses.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

DuffyDuck said:


> If he has been riding for 20+ years then he should (I would think) have the experience to give you the answers you need. 2-3 days a week sounds fine with me, just keep an eye on her behaviour. If she starts to change from her willing self to sour, tail flick at the saddle etc then perhaps she is sore.
> 
> Keep in mind that she is still growing a heck of a lot, and there is no rush in training horses.


Thanks Duffy
started her training early because she ran over the wife back in september
it was either train her, give her away to someone who could train her, or give her away to any backyard trainer who would take her

since no one i knew with legitimate training experience wanted her
we chose to start her training early
has made a huge difference in her attitude

i ask questions because i like to know
he has had 20 years of riding/training
but when i really really want to know something for my own benefit
i look here

thanks again


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

jmike said:


> 2 years 8 months today
> 
> i was not intending to work her for an hour and 45 minutes
> i was on her for about an hour, mostly just walking ... short trots here and there
> ...


 For me that is too young for any work, but in the UK we don't tend to back under 3 years old (racing apart), it seems to be a cultural difference.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Clava said:


> For me that is too young for any work, but in the UK we don't tend to back under 3 years old (racing apart), it seems to be a cultural difference.


she is still growing, no doubt
and i want to take my time with her
i was just hoping there would some physical signs on when enough is enough
already for me, she is feeling less wobbly
i got on her a few times at around 2 years old and she was wobbly standing still
2 weeks ago - she felt wobbly at a trot with me
this Saturday she wasn't wobbly at a trot, but was not exactly stable either

i prefer to have my neighbor George ride her though
mostly because he weighs about 70 pounds less than i do


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

jmike said:


> she is still growing, no doubt
> and i want to take my time with her
> i was just hoping there would some physical signs on when enough is enough
> already for me, she is feeling less wobbly
> ...


 I would worry that by the time you see physical signs of enough is enough that damage may have already been done.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Don't forget that A LOT of training has nothing to do with getting on the horse's back. I am a firm believer of making a solid foundation first.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Don't forget that A LOT of training has nothing to do with getting on the horse's back. I am a firm believer of making a solid foundation first.


i completely agree
neighbor says i did a good job getting her ready


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Okay, gotta ask the questions..... 

If you built a strong foundation then why did she run over your wife? 

If the foundation was built after she ran over your wife, why did you need to back her so early why not just give it a few more months?

Your horse, do what you want, but I am the curious sort.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Okay, gotta ask the questions.....
> 
> If you built a strong foundation then why did she run over your wife?
> 
> ...


we pretty much left her alone up until that point
i worked her pretty much daily for 2 solid months after that
gave her a week or 2 off then we started backing her
we are starting her 3rd week of being backed
i imagine we will continue riding her 3 days a week for as long as we can


i chose to back her because i know how i am
if it was just endless groundwork - i would have become disinterested 
if i failed to follow through, wife would have pushed to get rid of her

i actually tried for a month to give her away to someone who was capable of training her
so it was either do something i would follow through on
or give her away to just anyone

since i didn't want to just give her away to anyone and no one that i knew that was qualified to train her wanted her, i chose to back her

currently i do not see any harm in it and she is responding well


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Ever wonder why gymnasts and figure skaters always used to be so short? In part it had to do with damaging growth plates by constant stress on growing bodies. I participated in both sports, one at an elite level. 
At 16, I was diagnosed with osteoarthritis in my knees, back and wrists (from hitting the ground on my backside so often.  It forced me out of the competitive end of the sport, something I really enjoyed doing. 
At 27 we moved away from the north as I could no longer walk up the stairs at home on some days. As I have gotten older, I have good days and bad days and really, really bad days. I am in my mid-forties. 
Like I said, your horse, do what you feel you need to do, just be aware that too much, too soon can have negative effects that you can't see on the usefulness and health of your horse in the long term.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Ever wonder why gymnasts and figure skaters always used to be so short?In part it had to do with damaging growth plates by constant stress on growing bodies.I participated in both sports, one at an elite level.
> At 16, I was diagnosed with osteoarthritis in my knees, back and wrists (from hitting the ground on my backside so often. It forced me out of the competitive end of the sport, something I really enjoyed doing.
> At 27 we moved away from the north as I could no longer walk up the stairs at home on some days.As I have gotten older, I have good days and bad days and really, really bad days.I am in my mid-forties.
> Like I said, your horse, do what you feel you need to do, just be aware that too much, too soon can have negative effects that you can't see on the usefulness and health of your horse in the long term.


thanks - that is the type of advice i am looking for
i am trying to keep an eye out for indicators

i do not want to push her too hard too soon


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I understand where you are coming from. My husband is not a “horsey” person, so he has his days where he grumbles that "all they do is eat and poop". But he loves me so he puts up with the slow progress!
This is what we did with our youngster.
We bought a Caspian x QH that was 2. He was already learning to neck reign and could jump 4’ from a trot in a round pen. We brought him home, put him out to pasture for 6 months. 
During that 6 months he learned to lead, stop on a dime when we stop, back up if we back up, use verbal cues, follow with float in the lead. He learned to respect our space without a halter and yield to pressure from our body language. He learned not to mouth everything in sight, including us. 
After 6 months he spent another month in the round pen three days a week in two sessions of 20 minutes. We didn’t back him again until about 6 months ago. 
My 11 year old (65lbs) rides him bareback in a halter as well as fully tacked up with a snaffle bit, 1x a week each. He will be 4 in January.  He is ridden for no more than two hours a week, and only a few minutes at a time trotting and cantering. Most of the time he is working on cues at a standstill. (learning patience is another thing he needed to learn) 
 Another five hours weekly is spent on in hand obstacles, learning how to place his feet, desensitization etc. 
He is continuing to train, but we are giving him time to mature both mentally and physically. He has just started to fill out now and is showing a great deal of level headedness that was not there before. 
This year we will begin to slowly up the time and work load, to give the ligaments and tendons that support bone and muscle time to strengthen. 
I want him to have a happy, long, life as free from pain as much as possible, so maybe I go a bit overboard, but it is a consideration that I want to give him.


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

We back all of ours at 2-2.5yo, they get 30days ride time about 3 days a week, from 20-45mins. after the first 30days (about 15rides) we put them up for the summer or winter. (I do my best to back them in the spring or fall) after about 90 days off they will get about another 90 days of riding, again 3-4 days a week, progressing from 20-30mins of riding in the round pen or field behind the house to about an hour of light field work chasing dogs. By then we have typically come into either winter or summer again, and they get the season off (usually 60-90 days), and after that break they should be between 3-3.5 yo and they start to learn a job.

Jim


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

".....light field work chasing dogs"

Love it Jimmy!


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> ".....light field work chasing dogs"
> 
> Love it Jimmy!



That is the life of most of my horses....., I raise horse back field trial dogs.

Jim


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Two of my favorite things, dogs and horses, in one sport! How cool is that!


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

ever seen a mini chasing chickens? ... that is a sight


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## southernbound (May 17, 2014)

Totally agree with everyone else. When my 2 YO was in full time training he was getting worked 6 days a week but only for 20-30 mins a day and most of the time 15 mins of that would be ground work. Now that he's home he gets worked 3 days a week. One day a week is light work for 45 mins, one day is almost entirely groundwork with maybe 10 mins of riding and another day is a 30 minute walking trail ride, usually in the sand. I try to throw another day or two of straight ground work (obstacles, desensitizing etc) .

On that routine he's become very muscular and has a lovely topline without being worn down. Overall I just try to remember that he's a baby and treat him accordingly.

It's awesome that you care about your fillys wellbeing so much


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

No. Video please! Today is one of my "bad days" since the temp has dropped like a rock.....I need a laugh!


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

southernbound said:


> Totally agree with everyone else. When my 2 YO was in full time training he was getting worked 6 days a week but only for 20-30 mins a day and most of the time 15 mins of that would be ground work. Now that he's home he gets worked 3 days a week. One day a week is light work for 45 mins, one day is almost entirely groundwork with maybe 10 mins of riding and another day is a 30 minute walking trail ride, usually in the sand. I try to throw another day or two of straight ground work (obstacles, desensitizing etc) .
> 
> On that routine he's become very muscular and has a lovely topline without being worn down. Overall I just try to remember that he's a baby and treat him accordingly.
> 
> It's awesome that you care about your fillys wellbeing so much


excellent suggestion -- thank you for the details


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> No. Video please! Today is one of my "bad days" since the temp has dropped like a rock.....I need a laugh!


i didn't get it on video --- but this should cheer you up


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

That was funny! Thanks for the laugh! I have a horse that likes to play in the water trough like that, wonder what he would do with a pool.....hmmmm.


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## southernbound (May 17, 2014)

^^^ totally getting the horses a pool this summer....


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

southernbound said:


> ^^^ totally getting the horses a pool this summer....


was driving through the middle on nowhere mississippi when it was hot hot outside

drove by a pond, and all i see is a horses head sticking up out of the middle of it

an hour later, i drive back through and see the same thing, only in a different part of the pond


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## southernbound (May 17, 2014)

Rofl oh my gosh that image. My horses HATE water that's not coming out of a hose, but being in the desert they don't see it much. Been considering getting them something low enough to play in..... Bahahaha horse head out of a pond....


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

A good muscle building routine for animals and humans is two days in a row intermingling warm up type exercises with short periods of intense workout, then a day off as the muscles and the mind need a break.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Saddlebag said:


> A good muscle building routine for animals and humans is two days in a row intermingling warm up type exercises with short periods of intense workout, then a day off as the muscles and the mind need a break.


that sounds like a solid plan
the days i am available to work her are Thursday/Saturday/Sunday (at least until spring/daylight savings)

in taking your advice and combining it with others, i think the best thing is to break it into workout intensities
hard/medium/easy
the longest break is between Sunday and Thursday
so the hardest workout should be on Sunday
the shortest break is between Saturday/Sunday
so the easiest workout should be Saturday
making Thursday the medium workout

so -- what do you guys think of this:

Thursday - Medium with tack/rider:
warm up - 1/4 mile walk with rider
teaching - work on moving shoulders with rider
work - 1 mile trot with rider
cool down - walk, untack and groom

Saturday - Easy without tack:
warm up - 1/4 mile walk without rider
work/teaching - 15-20 minutes lunging, listening to cues, groundwork
cool down - 1/4 mile walk/groom

Sunday - Hard with tack/rider:
warm up - 1/4 mile walk with rider
work - 1 mile trot, 5 minute rest - 1 mile trot, 5 minute rest
cool down - 1/2 mile trot, get off and walk the horse for 1/2 mile -- untack and groom

I think it would be a solid routine for the next month
of course i will have to listen to the horse and make adjustments as necessary

thoughts?


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Sounds way too much trotting, IMO.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Just a suggestion. Always start with the lunge/round pen. Nothing hard or strenuous, just enough to get a feel for her that day and her for you. 

Young horses are like a box of chocolates, all horses are to some extent, but because of their age, they are like teenagers and you never know which horse is going to show up.

That way you will know what you have to work with that day. Some days, just getting their attention on you ends up being the only goal for the day. 

Also, I agree with Duffy, a bit too much trotting still. 

If it were me I would also emphasize more learning of cues at a standstill (lowering the head, raising the head, lateral flexation, backing, one step forward, stop, two steps forward, stop, yield the hindquarters, yield the shoulder etc.) before moving to a walk and asking for those things...and then making sure she is gaining softness on all cues before moving to a trot. If she's not getting it then don't move on to trying to do it moving faster, it just complicates things.

But we train in a very methodic and time consuming way so...take that or leave that as you wish.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

good advice, i have 2 more days to settle down on the details


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

You also need to think that you should take every day as it comes with your horse. Horses at any age can have good days or bad days. 

You can't put a time on it, or expect her to understand and follow your program.

On her long day, she may do so well at standing, cues and turning her hindquarters that after 15 minutes walking you get off her. There is nothing wrong with that. There may be days she's a snot, and 45 minutes of walking and trotting may be enough when it's ended on a good note. Always read the horse in the day, don't read your schedule.

You really should be concentrating on giving her a proper education. She won't build muscle or stamina until she knows how to carry herself properly and that is t going to happen in the next few months.


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

I wouldn't get to worked up about trotting until your horse is 3yo. if you have fields or woods nearby, this is the time to start walking trails and introducing the "boogy man".
Learning to do things like walk through puddles and maybe shallow streams, stepping over obstacles rather than jumping them. 

I have a huge issue with regimented workouts for young critters, whether they be dogs or horses. my bird dogs get to be dogs till a year old, run, bump birds chase birds act like fools, whatever, until they are a year old, some longer than that. 

My horses don't really see a round pen after about the third ride, other than mounting in the pen in case they get out from under me. I usually have a plan, but my plan is for the month, not the day, for example, you know your horse will more or less go, now i would work on little things like by the end of the month we will be able to cross ditches and ravines with no issue, or we will be able to stop, and stand for 5mins without any foolishness, my goals for horses, after the first 30 days of backing are more about "skills" than endurance, any horse being fed well and rode 3 days a week should not have any issues with conditioning. 

And I would limit my trotting to 2-3 mins rather than distance.

Jim


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

DuffyDuck said:


> You also need to think that you should take every day as it comes with your horse. Horses at any age can have good days or bad days.





jmike said:


> of course i will have to listen to the horse and make adjustments as necessary





DuffyDuck said:


> You can't put a time on it, or expect her to understand and follow your program.


right, but i can use it as a general guideline and progress according to how things feel and how she takes things
she doesn't need to understand or follow a program, she just has to do what is asked when it is asked

i expect that what i want and what we do will be relatively fluid, and those things will change as we get a better understanding of each other

the trot 1 mile, rest, trot another mile, rest ect. is a generic guideline
if i feel she is not up to it, i will stop
if i feel i can safely get another 1/4 mile out of her, i might decide to do that



DuffyDuck said:


> On her long day, she may do so well at standing, cues and turning her hindquarters that after 15 minutes walking you get off her. There is nothing wrong with that. There may be days she's a snot, and 45 minutes of walking and trotting may be enough when it's ended on a good note. Always read the horse in the day, don't read your schedule.


i agree that there is nothing wrong with getting off early, but not all of what i want is training, obediance, and discipline
i also want to build strength and stamina
without the work, that won't happen
but i do get what you are saying




DuffyDuck said:


> You really should be concentrating on giving her a proper education. She won't build muscle or stamina until she knows how to carry herself properly and that is t going to happen in the next few months.


i disagree - she needs "proper education", and that will be a secondary focus, but she needs strength and stamina to be able to do what she is taught with a rider on her back.

right now my primary focus is strength and stamina
secondary focus is getting her listening and moving the way i want

once i feel her strength and stamina are where they should be, i will shift focus


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

"proper education" .....build it and they will come.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

jimmyp said:


> I wouldn't get to worked up about trotting until your horse is 3yo. if you have fields or woods nearby, this is the time to start walking trails and introducing the "boogy man".
> Learning to do things like walk through puddles and maybe shallow streams, stepping over obstacles rather than jumping them.
> 
> I have a huge issue with regimented workouts for young critters, whether they be dogs or horses. my bird dogs get to be dogs till a year old, run, bump birds chase birds act like fools, whatever, until they are a year old, some longer than that.
> ...


thanks Jim - good advice

she might be ready to be introduced to the boogey man, but i am not
she does not feel stable enough to be jumping or bolting with me on her
i want to reduce the risk of injury as much as possible (to both of us)

and i do not plan on being strict or rigid on what is expected
but i do expect some sort of general guideline in my head
she doesn't need to know the program, but i do

your plan for the month of crossing the ditch or stream is my plan of the month of being able to trot around the pasture without feeling wobbly

right now we are on week 3 of backing, and she has had 5 rides on her
if i continue at 3 rides per week, she will have her 30 days around the end of January

in April she will be 3


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

strength and stamina, are relative in a young horse. you will build as much strength through walking circles and figure 8s for 4-5 mins as you will from trotting for a mile, the changes in direction and flexing will be more useful. 

When we build up my wives barrel horses, again for the season, we do a lot of widening and constricting circles and figure 8s, while this is not a good choice for a young horse, neither is trotting over distance. 

Ultimately what are your plans for this beast?


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

jimmyp said:


> strength and stamina, are relative in a young horse. you will build as much strength through walking circles and figure 8s for 4-5 mins as you will from trotting for a mile, the changes in direction and flexing will be more useful.
> 
> When we build up my wives barrel horses, again for the season, we do a lot of widening and constricting circles and figure 8s, while this is not a good choice for a young horse, neither is trotting over distance.
> 
> Ultimately what are your plans for this beast?


walk/trot/lope in the pasture, pay attention on the trails, and don't spook

i want to be able to ride her, i want my wife to be able to ride her, and i want my kids to be able to ride her

that is about it


---- i also don't want her running over people

once me and my daughter progress in our riding, we will eventually want to do other things, but that is way down the road


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I have to agree with the de-emphasis on strength and endurance. Just like a young kid can lift weights until they are purple and never look like the guy I posted (come to think of it, no human could naturally), a young mare needs the time to get at least some hormones regulated before strength is the focus. 

Most of your wish list focuses on training issues, and if your wife and daughter are green riders, it may be quite a few years before they are ready to ride her and feel safe doing so. 

It can be done. My daughter rides a greenie, I ride a greenie, but we focus almost entirely on getting them to as loosie said on another thread, "speak the same language" as their riders. 

Without good communication all you end up with is a horse that can run off with you faster and for a longer distance!


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I have to agree with the de-emphasis on strength and endurance. Just like a young kid can lift weights until they are purple and never look like the guy I posted (come to think of it, no human could naturally), a young mare needs the time to get at least some hormones regulated before strength is the focus.
> 
> Most of your wish list focuses on training issues, and if your wife and daughter are green riders, it may be quite a few years before they are ready to ride her and feel safe doing so.
> 
> ...


we are all green riders .... me and the daughter at least have 1 year down with lessons

i guess context would be good, although it seems that focus would be on training issues --- i am a big guy .. about 245 pounds big 

that is why i am not riding her except at a walk, and 10-20 seconds trotting at a time.
My neighbor is riding her, he is about 170 ... 
once she has the muscle and stability that she needs for me to be on her, we will shift focus

same as you wouldn't throw an 80 pound rucksack on a teenager and ask him to walk 12 miles, i would not get on this horse and expect her to trot with me on her

we are going to gradually work up to that level


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

May I ask, how many hands and what breed is the horse?


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

You will never muscle/condition a 2.5yo horses frame enough that she does not wobble going around the pasture. You mention paying attention to what the horse is telling you, right now your horse is telling you she is not ready for the level of work you are putting on her.........


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> May I ask, how many hands and what breed is the horse?


quarterhorse 14.2 and she is pretty wide


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

jimmyp said:


> You will never muscle/condition a 2.5yo horses frame enough that she does not wobble going around the pasture. You mention paying attention to what the horse is telling you, right now your horse is telling you she is not ready for the level of work you are putting on her.........


i agree -- she feels stable and solid at a walk
the few times we did a short trot, she felt wobbly -- we stopped


neighbor says that she feels stable and solid under him
that is why he is riding her and i am not


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

That is a pretty small horse for a pretty big guy. It would be like me at 120# riding my daughter's Caspian x QH. I'm not doing it until his bones are mature in about three years. 
Here is the rub. The spine in a horse does not completely mature until about 6 -7 years of age. Even with a good topline, the muscles, ligaments and tendons are not enough to prevent possible spine damage if the weight load is heavy in comparison to the build of the horse. 
This is an article that I found very informative, though many in “the business” find it controversial.
http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

jmike said:


> neighbor says that she feels stable and solid under him
> that is why he is riding her and i am not



You are splitting hairs, but ultimately its your horse.

Jim


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> That is a pretty small horse for a pretty big guy. It would be like me at 120# riding my daughter's Caspian x QH. I'm not doing it until his bones are mature in about three years.
> Here is the rub.The spine in a horse does not completely mature until about 6 -7 years of age.Even with a good topline, the muscles, ligaments and tendons are not enough to prevent possible spine damage if the weight load is heavy in comparison to the build of the horse.
> This is an article that I found very informative, though many in “the business” find it controversial.
> http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf


not sure what a caspian is

height is not the only factor in a size equation
my 8 yr old quarthorse at 15'3hh outweighs my neighbors 20 yr old standardbred by at least a few hundred pounds despite being within an inch as far as height is concerned

but i get what you are saying, and that is why i stay off of her as much as possible 

i have only had 1 real session on her since we started 3 weeks ago ... walking around the pasture .. a few 10-20 second trotts

she may be short, but she does have a very solid build


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

jimmyp said:


> You are splitting hairs, but ultimately its your horse.
> 
> Jim


75 pounds is more than a hair
he's been riding for 20+ years, so in general, i trust his judgement over mine
doesn't mean i don't want to find a way to participate/plan

thanks for the advice


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

You have probably seen a Caspian and just didn't realize it. Have you ever seen the pictures in the middle east and seen grown men on little horses where their feet are practically dragging on the ground? Those are Caspians. They can carry more weight than their size would dictate. They are used a lot for working carriages, hauling things. Kind of like a miniature version of a draft. At 12.3 hh matured, he can carry about 180 fully tacked up. 


Two of my other horses are QH one is foundation bred and is a beast at 1350# and 15.3 h., the fourth is a ? and at 15.1 hh has a much slighter build at about 1000#. Everyone thinks he is an Appendix (QH x Thoroughbred). 

No one is telling you not to ride your horse, but to accept that it may be a while before the biology of the horse can mature to be ready to be strong enough to carry you where you feel stable. 

Read the article I linked to, it is long but thorough.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

here is an ancient picture... of a man on a Caspian.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> You have probably seen a Caspian and just didn't realize it. Have you ever seen the pictures in the middle east and seen grown men on little horses where their feet are practically dragging on the ground? Those are Caspians. They can carry more weight than their size would dictate. They are used a lot for working carriages, hauling things. Kind of like a miniature version of a draft. At 12.3 hh matured, he can carry about 180 fully tacked up.
> 
> 
> Two of my other horses are QH one is foundation bred and is a beast at 1350# and 15.3 h., the fourth is a ? and at 15.1 hh has a much slighter build at about 1000#. Everyone thinks he is an Appendix (QH x Thoroughbred).
> ...


here is mine
Dwm No Foolin Around Quarter Horse

also foundation/cutting bred -- she is solid

i have read it before  it is a good article
i am really trying to stay off of her as much as possible
i traded a bunch of t-posts and barbwire for training time with my neighbor
he is coming from a racing background and i get that their main focus is to get on and get miles under their belt
but, if i have someone that is willing and able to get on her to start her, i am going to go for it
i want to pull him back a little because he is trying to work her up to 4 miles trotting non-stop and i am pulling him back and getting him to slow down the progress

if i felt she wasn't ready, i would not be working her like this
building strength and stamina is a selfish goal that gets me on her back so we can proceed at our own pace
i don't like relying on others, but that is where i am right now
if i can come up with a plan that gets her to where i feel stable on her, i will do that and take over as soon as i can

it makes me think of 5x5 starting strength
the exercises, sets, reps, and intervals were picked for a specific purpose
maximum gains for beginners
i am trying to translate what i know of that world into the horse world

also makes me think of the Army -- we were consistently running 3,4, and 6 miles at a time to be ready for our 2 mile PT test


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Hey! What d'ya know we're related! Peppy; my guy has double Playgun though. Never bothered to get his papers, but here is his sire.

Seven From Heaven | 6666 Ranch

I'll see if I can find a good picture of him....


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Not the best picture, but....


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

He is the reason why I am being such a pest about all of this. 

You know what this well bred talented horse is doing at the ripe old age of 9? Eating grass in my pasture. Shortly after we bought him, he re-injured an old injury the PPE caught. We were only lightly riding him at the time, conditioning him, "legging up" and all that.

The old injury was most likely caused by someone who just blew him out in competition years ago. It will take months to re-heal and maybe surgery if it keeps bothering him. 

Sorry to be such a downer. I think you are trying to do what is best for your horse.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Hey! What d'ya know we're related! Peppy; my guy has double Playgun though. Never bothered to get his papers, but here is his sire.
> 
> Seven From Heaven | 6666 Ranch
> 
> I'll see if I can find a good picture of him....


nice  Docs Hickory

at one point i had found a picture of her father smart asa lynx -- but i can't find it anymore

these are from May - she has put on a few inches and a LOT of weigh since then

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-conformation-critique/critique-whiskey-better-pics-419986/


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Pretty Girl! Treat her well and I am sure she will take good care of Y'all for a very long time.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> He is the reason why I am being such a pest about all of this.
> 
> You know what this well bred talented horse is doing at the ripe old age of 9? Eating grass in my pasture. Shortly after we bought him, he re-injured an old injury the PPE caught. We were only lightly riding him at the time, conditioning him, "legging up" and all that.
> 
> ...


he looks like a big sweetie 

i do want whats best for my horse, but ultimately what is best for the humans is more important to me
as eager as i was to start her, i have always wanted to do it as safely as possible


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Sometimes I feel like acquiring a new horse is a big game of hot potato, and the point is to pass it on....I wish more people considered the well being of animals not just for their own purposes, but for the owners down the way.....


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Sometimes I feel like acquiring a new horse is a big game of hot potato, and the point is to pass it on....I wish more people considered the well being of animals not just for their own purposes, but for the owners down the way.....


i have never been a fan of selling anything
i would rather give it away to someone in need

as far as animals go, when they come to me, they stay
it's why we have 5 dogs, a cat, and 6 chickens

but i have the space for them
24.5 acres of woods and pasture
we can have a great time and never leave home


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

jmike said:


> right, but i can use it as a general guideline and progress according to how things feel and how she takes things
> she doesn't need to understand or follow a program, she just has to do what is asked when it is asked
> 
> i expect that what i want and what we do will be relatively fluid, and those things will change as we get a better understanding of each other
> ...


She needs an education so that 1200ilbs horse doesn't turn her strength against you and you end up with a bronc. Education comes first, strength comes second. 
You don't go to the gym, throw some weights around and expect to build up muscles in the places you want to, you hurt and ache and injure yourself. Don't do the same to your horse.

I'm going to be honest here. You need to talk to the guy who is riding her. If he is doing more than a few minutes at trot each session, you need to pull him off and let her grow. She is small. I wouldn't even sit on her and I am 57kg. 

I am honestly perplexed as to why this mare can't sit in a field to mature and grow, so she will find her own balance and wobble less, and what rush there is to get her trained under saddle.

Horses don't learn over night, there is no overnight fix. Stamina and strength on a 5yo who has two years under saddle takes time, and they're practically fully grown. You're asking twice as much of a horse that is half the age.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

DuffyDuck said:


> She needs an education so that 1200ilbs horse doesn't turn her strength against you and you end up with a bronc. Education comes first, strength comes second.
> You don't go to the gym, throw some weights around and expect to build up muscles in the places you want to, you hurt and ache and injure yourself. Don't do the same to your horse.


the analogy doesn't fit
would only fit if there was a trainer in your analogy
broscience term would fit though




DuffyDuck said:


> I'm going to be honest here. You need to talk to the guy who is riding her. If he is doing more than a few minutes at trot each session, you need to pull him off and let her grow. She is small. I wouldn't even sit on her and I am 57kg.
> 
> I am honestly perplexed as to why this mare can't sit in a field to mature and grow, so she will find her own balance and wobble less, and what rush there is to get her trained under saddle.


you may be perplexed because you missed a few things in your rush to judgement
the question is not whether or not it should be done, because it will be done
the question is on how to do it as safely as possible



DuffyDuck said:


> Horses don't learn over night, there is no overnight fix. Stamina and strength on a 5yo who has two years under saddle takes time, and they're practically fully grown. You're asking twice as much of a horse that is half the age.


i am a little more familiar with her capabilities than you are, plain and simple
if i feel things are going too far and too fast i will stop them
i worked her on the lunge line for a week when she was 18 months
then i worked her for a few weeks on the lunge line at 2 years
most recently i worked her for 2 months on the lunge line
now she has been under saddle for 2 weeks, going on 3

if you have information or tips on building strength and stamina, even at a slow pace, i would love to hear what you have to say.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Duffy,
Many of the quarter horses are only about 14 hh and men about 180-190lbs ride them hard from a young age (think working cattle).
But in Duffy's defense, Jmike, I will say, those horses are tools for those people to make a living and that is a bit different consideration for a recreational rider.
Now 200 lb women in bikini tops on a little Arabian…eeeek! But frightening as it is, I see it all the time (sans bikini; okay, still bad imagery). 
I would also go the route you and I have advocated, but it sounds like he is working with the trainer he has available to him at the moment and a racing trainer, probably knows more about track training rather than Natural Horsemanship. 
Honestly, that is his choice to make. All you can do is present alternatives and trust they keep an eye on the well-being of the horse in making decisions, as he has already said he will. 
Jmike, Just swear to me never to ride her in a Speedo or I will unfriend you....
There are a lot of people on this site that would say you and I, duffy are ruining our horses by not running training at them harder and faster. It is a difference in methodologies and it will more than likely, unfortunately, still be a raging debate, long after we have all gone to meet our Maker.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Oh, Mike, walk hills....low rise over a long run...very good exercise. We use it for rehab.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Duffy,
> Many of the quarter horses are only about 14 hh and men about 180-190lbs ride them hard from a young age (think working cattle).
> But in Duffy's defense, Jmike, I will say, those horses are tools for those people to make a living and that is a bit different consideration for a recreational rider.




i am not offended in the least and i am taking in everything that everyone is saying so that i can research on my own
i do appreciate the input whether positive or negative

yes those people used the horses as tools to earn a living / survive
they were in fact bred for that purpose
whiskey need a job and chores, it is bred into her
there has been a huge shift in attitude and approachability since i started working her

the end goal is to make her less likely to act out because she is bored and not challenged
she has already kicked at me a few times and has run over the wife
so she will have a job and she will have chores for safety's sake
last thing i need is her trying her cutting skills on the kids riding bikes in the pasture





Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Now 200 lb women in bikini tops on a little Arabian…eeeek! But frightening as it is, I see it all the time (sans bikini; okay, still bad imagery).





Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I would also go the route you and I have advocated, but it sounds like he is working with the trainer he has available to him at the moment and a racing trainer, probably knows more about track training rather than Natural Horsemanship.
> Honestly, that is his choice to make.All you can do is present alternatives and trust they keep an eye on the well-being of the horse in making decisions, as he has already said he will.




i am taking as many precautions as i can think of
and i am inexperienced 
and i am not a trainer
and she will not be a race horse to be used until she is spent
getting her stable enough for me to ride her instead of having her run laps is my goal
i am a quick study, i am good with animals, and i am not afraid to ask for help




Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Jmike, Just swear to me never to ride her in a Speedo or I will unfriend you....





Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> There are a lot of people on this site that would say you and I, duffy are ruining our horses by not running training at them harder and faster. It is a difference in methodologies and it will more than likely, unfortunately, still be a raging debate, long after we have all gone to meet our Maker.


i also have no shame or modesty .... but speedo's are just too restricting for me

i do not think you are ruining your horses at all
i just don't have that luxury - for me it is a safety thing
that horse was bred to work, and if she isn't worked, she gets pushy and acts out
not something i can chance with wife and kids that aren't as assertive as i can be


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Oh, Mike, walk hills....low rise over a long run...very good exercise. We use it for rehab.


easy peasy - there are dips and hills all over the place ranging from steep to rolling

thanks


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

"....but speedo's are just too restricting for me."
----------------------------------------------------------
Good to hear!

I had an elderly neighbor once who used to go down to the end of the driveway to bend over and pick up the paper in his shorty bathrobe every morning, I think he slept naked....I quickly learned to take my morning coffee, in the back of the house!
--------------------------------------------


"I just don't have that luxury"
-------------------------------
Living in cattle country and being a recreational rider, I understand both sides of things, no worries. 

-----------------------------------------


"i am taking as many precautions as I can think of
and I am inexperienced 
and I am not a trainer....I am not afraid to ask for help"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is why I am asking people to cut you a break. We all have unique circumstances that come into play. 

It is hard sometimes when you really believe in something and see it work so well for you personally, to just let go and accept that not everybody is capable of doing it that way for one reason or another. So rather than getting into a flaming argument with people I don't really know.....well...humor.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> "....but speedo's are just too restricting for me."
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Good to hear!
> 
> ...


that's the life




Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> "I just don't have that luxury"
> -------------------------------
> Living in cattle country and being a recreational rider, I understand both sides of things, no worries.
> 
> ...


i have no doubt that they are probably right for optimal circumstances
but it is hard for people to step outside the security of indoctrination and dogma to consider possibilities, alternatives, and circumstances

i would have liked to leave her alone until around march and then start getting her ready, but things just didn't work out that way
so i am stuck doing what is necessary instead of what i would like to be doing

i much prefer riding Dixie over Whiskey - Dixie is a tank at 15'3"
but she sulls, tries to go where she wants instead of where i want
so she definitely needs the ride time
if i can get whiskey built up enough to carry me then i can work on getting her broke enough for my daughter to ride, that is what i would prefer

she is about 5'1" and maybe 90 pounds soaking wet with rocks in her pocket
whiskey would be a much better fit for her


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

"But she sulls, tries to go where she wants instead of where I want"

That is what everyone means by education. Wet blankets will only get you so far and are only part of the equation. That horse is challenging its rider. That should not be happening. 

You need to learn how to correct those things yourself and not just from the saddle. That was what Jim was saying. 

You said you are not a trainer, but anytime you have contact with a horse they learn something, like it or not. You are a horse owner, training your horse every time you come near her, lead her, groom her, saddle her or ride her. For better and for worse, you are a trainer. 

So many horses come to people "perfect" and then in a few weeks or months those same people are wondering why their nice horse has suddenly started acting like they are demon possessed. Its not the horse, it is them.

Since you don't have a Natural Horsemanship trainer nearby that you know of, look at as many videos as you can from Natural Horsemanship trainers on you tube. You will find with each that there are things that work for you, things that don't. None of them is the be-all-end all. Pat Parelli, Clinton Anderson are pretty commercialized, Buck Brannaman, Craig Cameron, Mark Rashid are a few that are less so. 

You said you have a steep learning curve so get out there and suck up as much information on Natural horsemanship as you can find. 

BTW. I found my trainer at a local boarding barn. He doesn't just train my horses, he has and is training me, to train my horses. He is a good, honest man.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> "But she sulls, tries to go where she wants instead of where I want"
> 
> That is what everyone means by education. Wet blankets will only get you so far and are only part of the equation. That horse is challenging its rider. That should not be happening.


she knows what to do, she is educated
she is just not obediant or respectful in that sense
so, it is not education she needs, it is training and respect

right now George is riding Whiskey and I am riding Dixie
DD rides Georges horse *******

When i first got on Dixie again after a few months off
she was sulling again (had this issue over the summer)
but we have since gotten it straightened out

i put on some spurs, and i tap her with them when she starts trying to go where she wants
she still tries me occassionally, but not like before
we are getting it under control



Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> You need to learn how to correct those things yourself and not just from the saddle. That was what Jim was saying.
> 
> You said you are not a trainer, but anytime you have contact with a horse they learn something, like it or not. You are a horse owner, training your horse every time you come near her, lead her, groom her, saddle her or ride her. For better and for worse, you are a trainer.
> 
> So many horses come to people "perfect" and then in a few weeks or months those same people are wondering why their nice horse has suddenly started acting like they are demon possessed. Its not the horse, it is them.


yes -- Dixie has gotten over on us since we got her and were new to horses
as we learn, we make corrections
the sulling thing for me at this point is not a big deal
i now know how to handle it and get her under control



Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Since you don't have a Natural Horsemanship trainer nearby that you know of, look at as many videos as you can from Natural Horsemanship trainers on you tube. You will find with each that there are things that work for you, things that don't. None of them is the be-all-end all. Pat Parelli, Clinton Anderson are pretty commercialized, Buck Brannaman, Craig Cameron, Mark Rashid are a few that are less so.


i had the CA videos on my laptop and was watchign them consistently
i was also able to put a lot of what he said into practice



Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> You said you have a steep learning curve so get out there and suck up as much information on Natural horsemanship as you can find.
> 
> BTW. I found my trainer at a local boarding barn. He doesn't just train my horses, he has and is training me, to train my horses. He is a good, honest man.


I am learning as much as i can when and where i can
you're right that reading and watching videos will only get you so far
sometimes it helps to see someone deal with the problem
George has been great about that too -- he showed me how he handled the sulling issue and since then i have had fewer problems with that

my trainer teachs me and my daughter a lot
but it is on her horses who are relatively problem free
she is good at what she does, she runs the local 4H horse club
her daughter went to state for 7 differnt horse disciplines

so for me .. sulling is not an issue, i know how to handle it, and i do handle it when it happens
i would like to get it completely out of her eventually

got a feeling i should be a little less open so we can focus on what i want to know ..... ?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Running over your wife is not a reason to start saddle work, two different things. If anything it means she's not ready for saddle work.

I'd be interested in seeing a current picture of this horse, as a few months ago she was NOT stocky and very immature for her age. A horse that me being an experienced rider and a small woman would REFUSE to get on.

Her fitness level is IRRELEVANT at this point. I don't know why you're trying to get her in shape. If anything that is a bad idea since you'll have an in shape green horse you don't know how to handle.

I'm concerned that I have a thread up of how you have trouble with a well trained horse then am reading this..

You've had multiple experienced people telling you this isn't a good idea..

If you MUST ride her make sure the ground work is complete. Get the LIGHTEST POSSIBLE experienced rider for her. I'm assuming your neighbor's not jockey sized? Find someone who is. The weight limit should stop FAR before the poor thing is wobbling. This horse isn't ready for backing but if you must do it do it right. I'm sure she will have some issues due to this but far less if you attempt to do things properly.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

See if your instructor would be willing to come to your place for lessons and do some work with all of you. They may charge you extra for their gas or such, but I think it would be worth every dime of it to have her come and work with you, your daughter and your horses. You are correct that it is one thing to deal with lesson horses and another entirely to deal with your own.

If she can't do it, see if she knows someone who could. I think by doing that you will get most of your questions answered in a way that fits your situation.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Yogiwick said:


> Running over your wife is not a reason to start saddle work, two different things. If anything it means she's not ready for saddle work.


i think you are wrong



Yogiwick said:


> I'd be interested in seeing a current picture of this horse, as a few months ago she was NOT stocky and very immature for her age. A horse that me being an experienced rider and a small woman would REFUSE to get on.
> 
> Her fitness level is IRRELEVANT at this point. I don't know why you're trying to get her in shape. If anything that is a bad idea since you'll have an in shape green horse you don't know how to handle.
> 
> I'm concerned that I have a thread up of how you have trouble with a well trained horse then am reading this..


you talking about the western pleasure horse Sweetie?
not a really good example




Yogiwick said:


> You've had multiple experienced people telling you this isn't a good idea..


and i had experienced people telling me it is a good idea



Yogiwick said:


> If you MUST ride her make sure the ground work is complete. Get the LIGHTEST POSSIBLE experienced rider for her. I'm assuming your neighbor's not jockey sized? Find someone who is. The weight limit should stop FAR before the poor thing is wobbling. This horse isn't ready for backing but if you must do it do it right. I'm sure she will have some issues due to this but far less if you attempt to do things properly.


i have stated my neighbros size earlier in this thread


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> See if your instructor would be willing to come to your place for lessons and do some work with all of you. They may charge you extra for their gas or such, but I think it would be worth every dime of it to have her come and work with you, your daughter and your horses. You are correct that it is one thing to deal with lesson horses and another entirely to deal with your own.
> 
> If she can't do it, see if she knows someone who could. I think by doing that you will get most of your questions answered in a way that fits your situation.


she was coming to my place for a while and working with me on Dixie and daughter on *******
she said it is just too far out of the way for her
she doesn't have the time

i might ask my farrier tomorrow
he lives pretty close and might be able to give us lessons on our off-weeks (we go every other week)


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Mike, you need help with this. It feels so much better when you know someone has your back. 

Dealing daily with (owning and riding) young horses is a serious endeavor that most people successfully take up only after years of riding and training experiences. I have had horses for 12 years, ridden for 36 and I still need a professional trainer to come help me out with the young ones and the greenies to make sure it is done right the first time.

Not saying you can't do it, just saying, you are going to need a strong support system on the ground at your beck and call. Your neighbor is one, your farrier and his contacts is another, your vet and his contacts, advanced riders at the lesson barn, breeders, four H members, four H judges...... Reach out to everyone and give yourself as many options as possible.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

jmike said:


> i think you are wrong
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Can you expand on why you think I'm wrong?

I'm talking about whatever other thread you were having trouble with your trainer's horse. I DO think it's relative. Starting a green horse is about being capable of refining your cues and keeping things as simple and straightforward as possible. If you don't have refined cues then you shouldn't be doing it. It's much more complex then "pull to turn". I hope you don't run into any issues..

Haven't heard anyone on this forum say "this is a good idea" in the many threads I've read on the topic..

I'm afraid I missed your neighbors size then. All I got was "smaller than me" and "70lbs less than me". I'd be interested in height and weight as well as a current picture of your horse.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Mike, you need help with this. It feels so much better when you know someone has your back.


... i do have help with this



Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Dealing daily with (owning and riding) young horses is a serious endeavor that most people successfully take up only after years of riding and training experiences. I have had horses for 12 years, ridden for 36 and I still need a professional trainer to come help me out with the young ones and the greenies to make sure it is done right the first time.
> 
> Not saying you can't do it, just saying, you are going to need a strong support system on the ground at your beck and call. Your neighbor is one, your farrier and his contacts is another, your vet and his contacts, advanced riders at the lesson barn, breeders, four H members, four H judges...... Reach out to everyone and give yourself as many options as possible.


i do -- i always reach out when i need help


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

So you have no training questions that need resolving?


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Yogiwick said:


> Can you expand on why you think I'm wrong?


page 2



jmike said:


> i chose to back her because i know how i am
> if it was just endless groundwork - i would have become disinterested
> if i failed to follow through, wife would have pushed to get rid of her
> 
> ...


also -- she is responding well, and has become less pushy and more approachable since we started



Yogiwick said:


> I'm talking about whatever other thread you were having trouble with your trainer's horse. I DO think it's relative.


are you saying every horse you have ever been on, you could just get on it and know all of it's buttons?
i know some on here do have a lot of experience
but to that level? ... nope not buying it

but a beginner on a western pleasure horse - same thing is going to happen
communication has to be established
first time on THAT horse ever .. first time ever on a western pleasure horse
anyone would have difficulties
it would be ridiculous to think otherwise



Yogiwick said:


> Starting a green horse is about being capable of refining your cues and keeping things as simple and straightforward as possible. If you don't have refined cues then you shouldn't be doing it. It's much more complex then "pull to turn". I hope you don't run into any issues..


thanks, i have not run into any issues



Yogiwick said:


> Haven't heard anyone on this forum say "this is a good idea" in the many threads I've read on the topic..


i never said they were on the forums, because they aren't
they are people i know and trust 



Yogiwick said:


> I'm afraid I missed your neighbors size then. All I got was "smaller than me" and "70lbs less than me". I'd be interested in height and weight as well as a current picture of your horse.


He is about 6ft at 160-170 
he's been riding for 20+ years and breaking horses for 15+


----------



## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> So you have no training questions that need resolving?


i think i have all the answers i need

go slow
monthly goals
walk easy hills
less trotting (2 minutes is ok, but a mile is not - even if it only takes 4 minutes for a mile)
have some easy days because it is not all about strength and stamina

i think that just about nails it


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Good deal then.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

jmike said:


> page 2
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes I read the first part about why you are backing her now but that is for YOUR reasons and not hers.

Different horses may have different cues, but RIDING is all the same. Yes I'm sure if I got on a horse trained to spurs for example I may have some trouble with fine tuning cues and would need to practice, but I'm sure I would be able to ride them and not have any issues.

Not sure what you are talking about "to that level". Many people on here have had experience in the upper levels of showing, or lots of experience training professionally, etc.

The point is they have more then you. Exactly, you're a beginner that has issues with basic concepts. That's not a bad thing and I applaud you for starting riding as an adult and sticking with it. Everyone starts somewhere. That doesn't mean you're ready to train a young and immature horse.. I would have an issue with a professional starting such an immature horse from the pictures I've seen so that's two separate issues.

No, generally people don't have "difficulties" when riding new horses. Yes there may be different cues but as far as applying the cue once you know you know. (Ex, I was lunging a horse and he wouldn't stop, I asked the nearby trainer what her cue was, she responded and I instantly and easily stopped him).

Just FYI, even if you are lucky and get a horse that will never have an issue that needs to be fixed (unlikely..) having a "pull to turn" horse started by a beginner really don't make her more marketable.

I'm glad your neighbor is knowledgeable but still seems very big for a horse that size.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Yogiwick said:


> Yes I read the first part about why you are backing her now but that is for YOUR reasons and not hers.


whose?



Yogiwick said:


> Different horses may have different cues, but RIDING is all the same. Yes I'm sure if I got on a horse trained to spurs for example I may have some trouble with fine tuning cues and would need to practice, but I'm sure I would be able to ride them and not have any issues.


that doesn't sound right ... about riding being all the same



Yogiwick said:


> Not sure what you are talking about "to that level". Many people on here have had experience in the upper levels of showing, or lots of experience training professionally, etc.
> 
> The point is they have more then you. Exactly, you're a beginner that has issues with basic concepts. That's not a bad thing and I applaud you for starting riding as an adult and sticking with it. Everyone starts somewhere. That doesn't mean you're ready to train a young and immature horse.. I would have an issue with a professional starting such an immature horse from the pictures I've seen so that's two separate issues.


the point i was making was that not all horses are the same
i can get on Dixie and have a lot of fun and know exactly what the cues are and do exactly what i want to do (not exactly, but close enough)
then i get on Sweetie and site down and she starts side-passing across the arena
so i have to figure out what her cues are and how to apply those cues
because i have never ridden her before, i need to learn what her "feel" is



Yogiwick said:


> No, generally people don't have "difficulties" when riding new horses. Yes there may be different cues but as far as applying the cue once you know you know. (Ex, I was lunging a horse and he wouldn't stop, I asked the nearby trainer what her cue was, she responded and I instantly and easily stopped him).
> 
> Just FYI, even if you are lucky and get a horse that will never have an issue that needs to be fixed (unlikely..) having a "pull to turn" horse started by a beginner really don't make her more marketable.


she will never be on the market, so that is not a concern
i will either keep her forever, or give her away to someone is capable




Yogiwick said:


> I'm glad your neighbor is knowledgeable but still seems very big for a horse that size.


i respect your opinion, you are entitled to it
but you have also never seen her in person, worked with her, or sat on her ... so i would most definitely accept his opinion on that one


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

jmike said:


> whose?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm talking about the horse.. training needs to suit the horses needs.

My point is if the horse is sidepassing persay you need to figure out why and correct the why. The horse is more intune than your body is with itself so the horse is telling you that you are not balanced (which you have admitted you aren't, another red flag) or that you're putting too much pressure "here" or whatever. If you want a horse that's dead to cues and just does the basics I guess that's fine, if you don't plan on selling her.

I've seen pictures and that says enough.

I'm glad that someone experienced is doing most of the work atm but that doesn't change what I said, and keep in mind "experienced is as experienced does". I know lots of "experienced" people that have NO idea what they're talking about. Also, everyone is "experienced" when you're just starting out and you don't have the knowledge to know what's right and wrong. They may be one of the truly experienced or just someone who happens to have some horses. Even the truly experienced can be stuck in their ways and refuse to listen to outside advice or advance with the times.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Yogiwick said:


> I'm talking about the horse.. training needs to suit the horses needs.
> 
> My point is if the horse is sidepassing persay you need to figure out why and correct the why. The horse is more intune than your body is with itself so the horse is telling you that you are not balanced (which you have admitted you aren't, another red flag) or that you're putting too much pressure "here" or whatever.


in the other thread i was just commenting on how alien it felt
so, figuring out why -- done
correcting it -- done
so I did not have that problem the next time i got on her




Yogiwick said:


> If you want a horse that's dead to cues and just does the basics I guess that's fine, if you don't plan on selling her.


a little bit of a passive aggressive response
i have never said i wanted a horse that was dead to cues
and i am glad you approve .. as long as i don't plan on selling her :wink:



Yogiwick said:


> I've seen pictures and that says enough.
> 
> I'm glad that someone experienced is doing most of the work atm but that doesn't change what I said, and keep in mind "experienced is as experienced does". I know lots of "experienced" people that have NO idea what they're talking about.


that is my same view on forum people
there are lots that are experiencing
and lots that just repeat what they hear without understanding
i never know which one is which, and lack the experience to tell which one is which
so .. i ask the questions, they head me in the general direction, then i research, or ask people who i KNOW are experienced



Yogiwick said:


> Also, everyone is "experienced" when you're just starting out and you don't have the knowledge to know what's right and wrong. They may be one of the truly experienced or just someone who happens to have some horses. Even the truly experienced can be stuck in their ways and refuse to listen to outside advice or advance with the times.


that is also true
and it is also another reason why i ask questions
and then research the answers i was given


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Talked to my trainer
She is familiar with my horse and owns one of her relatives
She is also familiar with my riding skill and my learning curve
She said i am good to go for walking and short trots on whiskey

That makes 2 experienced trainers each with 15+ years of experience that are not only familiar with my skill level, but also familiar withe my horse that say I am good to go.


I have the info i need on strength and stamina drlls.

Thanks everyone for your 5 and input.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

She also gave me the advice to check for excessive heat and swelling in her legs/joints
Also check for soreness in her back
Watch to make sure her breathing is ok while working her
I should also keep an eye on her to make sure she isn't dropping weight suddenly.

In case others are looking for advice


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Food for thought. Would you let your young son or daughter play a full contact sport, such as football, with full pads, tackling, and blocking at age 3 or4?

I would not. Hence I would not work my horse hard at that age either.

Why HAVE to check for heat and swelling and not just prevent iheat and swelling from happening to begin with by keeping workouts short and sweet? Or better yet letting your mare ruminate over the training she has on her thus far in field until spring?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Sure, but if the overwhelming response is no...


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

sarahfromsc said:


> Food for thought. Would you let your young son or daughter play a full contact sport, such as football, with full pads, tackling, and blocking at age 3 or4?


 
how did you come up with the age of 3 or 4?
curious - because some kids are barely walking at 3 and barely running at 4




sarahfromsc said:


> I would not. Hence I would not work my horse hard at that age either.
> 
> Why HAVE to check for heat and swelling and not just prevent iheat and swelling from happening to begin with by keeping workouts short and sweet? Or better yet letting your mare ruminate over the training she has on her thus far in field until spring?


i read an interesting article last night about when racehorses get started
it also included breakdown rates of thoroughbreds that were started for 2yr old racing and 3yr old racing
what i was reading was that the ones that do 2 yr old racing started their training at 16-18 months old, and training under saddle at around 20 months old

the interesting part hearing about how introducing stress (moderate and controlled strsse) to their bones and joints encouraged an increase in bone density

their analogy was that when you leave a horse alone to completely mature with no additional stress, you get what you prepared for, a horse who is more prone to injury because it was developed to be a pasture puff .... something along those lines

was an interesting article


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

jmike said:


> i read an interesting article last night about when racehorses get started
> it also included breakdown rates of thoroughbreds that were started for 2yr old racing and 3yr old racing
> what i was reading was that the ones that do 2 yr old racing started their training at 16-18 months old, and training under saddle at around 20 months old
> 
> ...


most likely an article pushing forward how racing 2year old TBs has no issues.

What rubbish.

jmike, it is ENTIRELY up to you how you treat your horses, but you asked for opinions and then when you're given an answer you don't like the sound of, you get defensive and throw out a load of rubbish.

The horse needs EDUCATING before you can build her up.
Walking and trotting her is not a basic education.

I wish you the best of luck, because in the long run you're going to need it. Building up strength and stamina in a horse without teaching it how that energy and power is supposed to be used is beyond idiocy.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

If a child is three or four, or five through seven, they are playing full contact football. In my son's graduating high school class, four football players had major surgery on shoulders, knees, elbows before they were 17. Seventeen! That is young for major surgery that didn't involve an accident. They had been playing ball since the age of five.

I held out until my son was eight. He was a decent little player for pop warner, and played through high school. Played both ways, and sometimes special teams. No surgeries. Is this because I at least let his body grow without stress and strain for a few more years, or is he just genetically gifted? The nut doesn't fall to far from the trees, so I'm ruling out the genetically gifted......

Sometimes it is not just physical. Mentally some horses aren't ready. Backed mine in the fall of his fourth year realized he wasn't there mentally yet. Through him out in the pasture and let him mature for the winter.

The piper will be paid eventually.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Yogiwick said:


> Sure, but if the overwhelming response is no...


we must not be reading the same thread 
up until page 8 - it was you and 1 other person (i would assume multiple experienced people would mean more than 1+yourself)

and 3 out of 8 is definitely not overwhelming

but despite who said what when, i am still taking it all in
i have heard some great advice and plan on putting it into play

duffy 
- sounds fine 2-3 days a week - page 1
- too much trotting - page 4
- 15-45 minute sessions page 4

clava 
- leave alone until 3 - page 1


jimmyp 
- backs theirs for 30 days at 2-2.5 - 90 days off - another 3-4 weeks - page 2
- too much trotting - page 4


southerbound 
- started theirs at 2, but short easy sessions - page 3


saddlebag 
- recommend split training with some high intensity intervals - page 4


reiningcatsanddogs
- agrees that it sounds like too much trotting - page 4
- small horse for a big guy - page 5
- you need help with this - page 8

yogiwick
- multiple experienced people are telling you no - page 8

sarahfromsc
- i would not work my horse at that age - page 10


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## ArabLuver (Aug 27, 2014)

jmike said:


> how did you come up with the age of 3 or 4?
> curious - because some kids are barely walking at 3 and barely running at 4


 Barely walking at 3? I don't know of a single, perfectly healthy child that wasn't walking by atleast 2 years old. Handicapped or disabled children are a different matter.

All I seem to hear from you are defensive remarks to some great advice! 

I agree that your "professional" who is starting your horse is entirely too big to be on a horse that is barely large enough to be started!

And lord, please! Quoting anything about the racing industry that says starting a horse at 20 months is good for them is complete nonsense! Why do you think so many of those poor animals end up crippled and lame for life?

At the end of the day, it's your horse, do what you want. But don't ask for advice from internet strangers if you aren't prepared to hear what they say, or you can respond politely to them.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Duffy 
- sounds fine 2-3 days a week - page 1
- too much trotting - page 4
- 15-45 minute sessions page 4


I would just like to point out that removing part of my message, and not relaying the entire thing, IMO, gives the wrong idea.

I honestly believe you want to rush this horse, rather than taking the time to educate and build her.

You can't build without the education. It's dangerous, and someone or the horse will end up hurt.

Your choice.

Sessions on the ground will be far more beneficial to her at this age than being in the saddle. Ponying her for rides will also be a great help to get miles and exposure.

I don't agree that you can plan sessions, you have to take them as it comes. I don't agree with the length of time you think this horse can hold a man's weight for.

I think you want to hear things that will tell you she will look like a pro bodybuilder in X months if you follow this exact X plan. It doesn't work like that, unfortunately.

You pull all these ideas from people or internet sites, but they're quite frankly debatable sources.


Jmike, I would honestly put less than 30 days on this horse, and turn her away to mature. I know the pictures you put in the link are from a few months ago, but she really doesn't look built enough to be considering stamina/muscle work. Your horse, your choice. I prefer to have my horses last longer, and listen to people when I ask for advice.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

DuffyDuck said:


> most likely an article pushing forward how racing 2year old TBs has no issues.
> 
> What rubbish.
> 
> jmike, it is ENTIRELY up to you how you treat your horses, but you asked for opinions and then when you're given an answer you don't like the sound of, you get defensive and throw out a load of rubbish.


no, i do like the opinions and i appreciate the time people took to respond
if something doesn't sound right, i say something about it
i would say there were a lot of differing opinions in this thread, but there really wasn't


start slower
trot less
shorter sessions
watch for attitude and soreness
education is more important than strength/stamina (the part i am disagreeing with) 



DuffyDuck said:


> The horse needs EDUCATING before you can build her up.
> Walking and trotting her is not a basic education.


walking and trotting is the most basic of all education
teach her how to do the thing, build her up so she is ready to do the next thing
i would not teach her how to do a sliding stop, pivot, or lead change if she is not physically able to do it

there are other things that will be taught along the way
but right now it is about getting her physically ready for those things

and i will use an analogy since everyone here is so fond of them
i would not teach a beginner gymnast how to do a standing back handspring if the she wasn't physically able to support her own weight with her arms



DuffyDuck said:


> I wish you the best of luck, because in the long run you're going to need it. Building up strength and stamina in a horse without teaching it how that energy and power is supposed to be used is beyond idiocy.


that is a mischarecterization of what i am trying to do
and a bit rude 

thanks anyways


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

ArabLuver said:


> Barely walking at 3? I don't know of a single, perfectly healthy child that wasn't walking by atleast 2 years old. Handicapped or disabled children are a different matter.


some are still wobbly at 3, not quite able to go faster, but i was making a generlizaation 



ArabLuver said:


> All I seem to hear from you are defensive remarks to some great advice!


i could go through every page and count the number of times i said thanks.
but i think you are mistaking defensiveness with a differing opinion

i have pulled a lot of good and valid information from this thread that i will put to use

such as:
start slower
trot less
shorter sessions
watch for attitude and soreness
education is more important than strength/stamina (the part i am disagreeing with) 




ArabLuver said:


> I agree that your "professional" who is starting your horse is entirely too big to be on a horse that is barely large enough to be started!
> 
> And lord, please! Quoting anything about the racing industry that says starting a horse at 20 months is good for them is complete nonsense! Why do you think so many of those poor animals end up crippled and lame for life?


was showing that there are differing opinions
and my horse is not 20 months (obviously way too young) - she is 32 months -- HUGE difference




ArabLuver said:


> At the end of the day, it's your horse, do what you want. But don't ask for advice from internet strangers if you aren't prepared to hear what they say, or you can respond politely to them.


i can certainly respond politely to them
even when they have differing opinions
but when i percieve rudeness - i respond in kind


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

My father always used to tell me ;

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink." 

Food for thought.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

sarahfromsc said:


> If a child is three or four, or five through seven, they are playing full contact football. In my son's graduating high school class, four football players had major surgery on shoulders, knees, elbows before they were 17. Seventeen! That is young for major surgery that didn't involve an accident. They had been playing ball since the age of five.


that is pretty awful, i feel bad for them
they should have been watched after better and indications that something wasn't right should have been followed up on



sarahfromsc said:


> I held out until my son was eight. He was a decent little player for pop warner, and played through high school. Played both ways, and sometimes special teams. No surgeries. Is this because I at least let his body grow without stress and strain for a few more years, or is he just genetically gifted? The nut doesn't fall to far from the trees, so I'm ruling out the genetically gifted......


you attempted to be safe with him - that is a good thing
but i think i would equate a 32 month old horse to maybe a 15-16 yr old kid instead of a 3-4 yr old kid 
a little young, but not horribly young



sarahfromsc said:


> Sometimes it is not just physical. Mentally some horses aren't ready. Backed mine in the fall of his fourth year realized he wasn't there mentally yet. Through him out in the pasture and let him mature for the winter.
> 
> The piper will be paid eventually.


i honestly would prefer to do the same thing and leave her alone until she is 3 1/2 -- but i don't feel like i can because of her previous bad behaviour
so i must do what i believe is necessary
but, i will do it in the safest manner that i can find


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

DuffyDuck said:


> Duffy
> - sounds fine 2-3 days a week - page 1
> - too much trotting - page 4
> - 15-45 minute sessions page 4
> ...


i aplogize for that, if they were really interested, they would have gone back and read the entire thing
i was trying to be brief, and believe i captured the basics of what you were saying -- please correct me if i did not understand what you were trying to say

i hate when people put words in my mouth, and i do apologize if i did mischarecterize what you said due to my lack of understanding



DuffyDuck said:


> I honestly believe you want to rush this horse, rather than taking the time to educate and build her.


that is not my intention at all
education will happen along the way
got to crawl before she can walk ect..
1rst step is walking/trotting and following directions
as she progresses physically, i will add more education
right now, i just want to keep things simple and safe



DuffyDuck said:


> You can't build without the education. It's dangerous, and someone or the horse will end up hurt.
> 
> Your choice.
> 
> ...


i disagree that sessions cannot be planned (in the most generic sense of the word)
going in with some sort of idea of what you want to get accomplished allows you to focus on what you want to do

i would imagine getting on a horse with absolutely no idea about what you want to do would lead to not getting much accomplished .... just a thought



DuffyDuck said:


> I think you want to hear things that will tell you she will look like a pro bodybuilder in X months if you follow this exact X plan. It doesn't work like that, unfortunately.


not what i want to heard at all --- read my first 2 questions


JMIKE said:


> In general when starting a younger horse, how do you know when enough is enough?
> Also, when you put 30 days on a new horse, how necessary is it to work every day?


but honestly, i got more information out of my trainer in 30 minutes than 2-3 days on this forum
check legs and joints for excessive heat, check back for soreness, ect... 




DuffyDuck said:


> You pull all these ideas from people or internet sites, but they're quite frankly debatable sources.
> 
> 
> Jmike, I would honestly put less than 30 days on this horse, and turn her away to mature. I know the pictures you put in the link are from a few months ago, but she really doesn't look built enough to be considering stamina/muscle work. Your horse, your choice. I prefer to have my horses last longer, and listen to people when I ask for advice.


that is a good solid opinion, i would like to hear you elaborate on that opinion
30 days, is that 30 total working days? if they are total working days, how many working days a week? 
are those 30 calendar days, working 2-3 times a week to total 12 actual working days?

maybe what i think of as stamina/muscle work differs from what you think of stamina/muscle work
details and context help since we may not be using the same definintions

i also would prefer my horses to last longer, and i have been good about reading and listening to what has been said -- shorter sessions, less trotting, more groundwork, ect... 

only 3 have said she is too young, unless i completely misunderstood you -- 
are you trying to say she is too young/immature to start anything under saddle?


----------



## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> My father always used to tell me ;
> 
> "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."
> 
> Food for thought.


lol 

i can understand that completely
you can elaborate -- you aren't going to hurt my feelings

do you think she is too young/immature to start under saddle?
do you think she is being started too hard and too fast?


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

jmike said:


> we must not be reading the same thread
> up until page 8 - it was you and 1 other person (i would assume multiple experienced people would mean more than 1+yourself)
> 
> and 3 out of 8 is definitely not overwhelming
> ...


Sigh, jmike. The same people have said no and because you stick your fingers in your ears and whistle they have given up at this point and are nice enough to offer some minimal advice instead. If you read a lot of these I think you're missing the point, as Duffy just called you out on. And I agree putting out a "load of rubbish" to make yourself correct which quite frankly I don't think you have the knowledge to prove at this point.

Yes, "stress" is good for bone density. It's the best way to raise a foal. Turn them loose and let them self exercise. After a day or two in a stall my (National level) trainer's foals are out and running around until she backs them lightly at 3 (if ready) and starts them at 4. She won't ever "work" them until 7 or 8, though they are winning shows far before that point as they are brought alone slowly and correctly. I agree that if you keep a foal in a stall and don't let them move you'll have issues. That's not what this is about.

Not all horses mature at the same rate, physically or mentally (though the bones ARE the same and you should be keeping track of that as that's one of the most important parts.

Now I looked up this article to give me exact ranges on bone maturity but it leads me to the next part:
http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf

Do NOT use random TB "studies" on how racing young is good for them. There have been a MILLION studies and facts that say it is not. I find it interesting that you are learning from an article with "breakdown rates"... The people I know who are personally involved in racing will be the first to say it's not. The fact that it's not is the biggest issue with racing. Ever why there are so many ON TRACK breakdowns let alone the millions of "useless" horses or "usable with this issue and limitation" or so many that break down at a young age due to early wear and tear thrown away afterwards. The race horse industry is disposable. Yes, individuals may care and may do their best but the industry as a whole is VERY disposable and some may say cruel. I know plenty of OTTBs. I can think of ONE that was a high level race horse with a good career that is still sound and peppy at 19. Oh wait, that's with injections and supplements. And when I first met him he was on stall rest for a suspensory injury.


----------



## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Yogiwick said:


> Sigh, jmike. The same people have said no and because you stick your fingers in your ears and whistle they have given up at this point and are nice enough to offer some minimal advice instead. If you read a lot of these I think you're missing the point. And I agree putting out a "load of rubbish" to make yourself correct which quite frankly I don't think you have the knowledge to prove at this point.


you are welcome to give examples - and possibly show me something i might have missed?




Yogiwick said:


> Yes, "stress" is good for bone density. It's the best way to raise a foal. Turn them loose and let them self exercise. After a day or two in a stall my (National level) trainer's foals are out and running around until she backs them lightly at 3 (if ready) and starts them at 4.


mine is nearly 3 --- 4 months to go 
mine are loose 24/7 - mine to not get locked in a stall ever

from the opinions, it sounds like i am not being light enough
that is cool, that is good advice, i have accepted it and i am attempting to understand what is light enough



Yogiwick said:


> Not all horses mature at the same rate, physically or mentally (though the bones ARE the same and you should be keeping track of that as that's one of the most important parts.


if i understand correctly, thoroughbreds are one of the fastest maturing breeds, and quarter horses are another fast maturing breed.
racing thoroughbreds are commonly started under saddle at around 20 months, and quarter horses are commonly started under saddle at 24 months
mine is starting under saddle at 32 months (8 months past the norm)



Yogiwick said:


> Now I looked up this article to give me exact ranges on bone maturity but it leads me to the next part:
> http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf
> 
> Do NOT quote random TB "studies" on how racing young is good for them. There have been a MILLION studies and facts that say it is not. The people I know who are personally involved in racing will be the first to say it's not. The fact that it's not is the biggest issue with racing. Ever why there are so many ON TRACK breakdowns let alone the millions of "useless" horses or "usable with this issue and limitation" or so many that break down at a young age due to early wear and tear thrown away afterwards. The race horse industry is disposable. Yes, individuals may care and may do their best but the industry as a whole is VERY disposable and some may say cruel. I know plenty of OTTBs. I can think of ONE that was a high level race horse with a good career that is still sound and peppy at 19. Oh wait, that's with injections and supplements. And when I first met him he was on stall rest for a suspensory injury.


yes -- that is exactly what i DO NOT want
i don't want a broke down 19 yr old horse that requires daily injections to live a good life
i want to be safe and take care of her as well as possible
i have decided to start her because i feel it is necessary
you can disagree with that -- no problem

but what i would really really appreciate is tips on how to do it as safely as possible

20-30 minute training sessions was excellent advice someone gave
more walking/less trotting is excellent advice
do some groundwork within those 20-30 minute sessions was some other good advice

so ... because i am not accepting the advice of "don't start her" does not mean that i am not listening and taking in the advice that applies to my particular circumstances


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

You say you agree with things and then say otherwise.

I don't feel your age equivalent is super accurate. 32 months on an immature horse is "obviously way too young" to most people too.

If you'd prefer to leave her alone then do that!! Her previous behavior is irrelevant. If you are having ground issues you address the ground issues not start the baby working! The reasons for not doing that are entirely YOURS and are not doing the horse any favors nor taking the horse into consideration. If you don't do groundwork before riding your horse will have pretty big holes in it's training.

"I wish you the best of luck, because in the long run you're going to need it. Building up strength and stamina in a horse without teaching it how that energy and power is supposed to be used is beyond idiocy."

This is completely true!!! You say that's not what you're trying to do but look again at your title and your posts. Even if that's not you're goal that's going to be your result and if it's not your goal I'm not sure why you started this thread.

"Education is more important then strength/stamina (the part I'm disagreeing with"

...?

The reason you're getting more out of your trainer is because people are hesitant to give you advice and if you need to be told "check your young immature horse is hurting after your ride her"... If her back is sore or her legs are sore there is ALREADY an issue.

You seem to like black and white. I think she is COMPLETELY NOT ready to be started under saddle. Let alone by 170lb man. She is also COMPLETELY being started too fast and pushed too hard physically and your priorities are not in order for training. I don't think a complete beginner has any business starting a young horse that they have already had issues with, in part though not solely for the previous reasons.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

jmike said:


> you are welcome to give examples - and possibly show me something i might have missed?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not going to quote posts you've already read to make a point.

I'm glad she is able to self exercise. My trainer will start them LIGHTLY (groundwork, wearing tack, moving up to basic lunge training, then maybe sit on them and walk around get off IF they're ready, then turn them back out. This is after having solid basic training and being handled regularly and properly since birth. Your filly doesn't have that if she's running people over and you're already FAR beyond that, at least in terms of physicality) in the fall of their 3 year old year. You have another year to go. If they aren't ready, which unless your filly has grown DRASTICALLY in a couple months she's not, then my trainer will leave them or maybe do JUST ground work and walking around with tack.

Light enough at this point is groundwork. IF she is ready get a LIGHT rider and lead them around. Then turn her out for the winter. Nothing more.

Bones all close at the same age. Yes TBs grow fast. Doesn't mean they're any more mature. The "norm" doesn't exist. It's growing further and further. That's the minimum and the old way where there is money to be made and the horse is disposable. I don't know why you are saying it's the norm. MANY horses are being started at 5 and 6. Listen to current information and listen for the reasons behind it. Pretty much ALL of the "start early" is about money and impatience NOT about the horse.

It's like the whole thing (that drives me nuts) where people sell kittens at 12 weeks, 8 the minimum. So people start selling them at 8. So then because that's the norm people start doing 6. Now it's not uncommon to see 4 week old kittens for sale (which I believe <8 weeks is illegal). What's next? Don't go by the "norm". Do research and make an educated decision and take the individual animal into account.

You don't want her broken down at 19 stop riding her.

Yes I completely disagree that it's necessary (it's not, maybe it's "necessary" for you) but regardless see the above sentence.

I told you what my top level and experienced trainer does. (FYI 15/20 years experience doesn't mean much in the horse world). Other people have told you what they do.

It amounts to sitting on their back and teaching them to turn, then letting them sit for the winter and think on it. Not taking them out for fitness training.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

jmike said:


> that is pretty awful, i feel bad for them
> they should have been watched after better and indications that something wasn't right should have been followed up on
> 
> 
> ...


I think the point was a wee bit missed. These surgeries were needed not because of one sack, block, or tackle, but because of the _*repetitive*_ stress on joints. In other words the joints and surrounding tendons, and ligaments were 'washed up' before the age of 17.

The indicators were there along with the checking for heat and swelling. The 'band aids' were applied at an early age in the form of heat, ice, and physical therapy, but the pound of cure was the cost, when only an once of prevention was needed.

Again, the piper will be paid; with the horse paying the piper.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

No and Yes. - elaboration...be careful what you wish for.

I think we are all floating past one another in the dark. Perhaps it is simply a difference in definitions of "education". When Natural Horseman say "education" it is "foundation". A foundation is that upon which something is built. 

With horses, that is things like ground manners, yielding to pressure, softness in cues, building a willingness for the horse to work with you, their leader, rather than simple stimulus-response - obey. 

It is a construction of a two way communications system rather than simply picking up a bullhorn and shouting through it. It takes a lot of time to build the former, the latter is easy to do. 

I think what most people here are seeing is that you are shouting at your horse through the bullhorn. That approach leads to a lot of problems down the way for a horse that will not be ridden by an experienced rider, nor will it be out cutting cattle 6 days a week. These are problems, people are trying to help you avoid. 

But there is only so much you can say on the subject before it becomes clear that someone just isn't thirsty.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Yogiwick said:


> If you'd prefer to leave her alone then do that!! Her previous behavior is irrelevant. If you are having ground issues you address the ground issues not start the baby working! The reasons for not doing that are entirely YOURS and are not doing the horse any favors nor taking the horse into consideration. If you don't do groundwork before riding your horse will have pretty big holes in it's training.


everything is relevant
your characterization of "baby" is innacurate
i have done groundwork -- and intend to incorparet it into future training




Yogiwick said:


> "I wish you the best of luck, because in the long run you're going to need it. Building up strength and stamina in a horse without teaching it how that energy and power is supposed to be used is beyond idiocy."
> 
> This is completely true!!! You say that's not what you're trying to do but look again at your title and your posts. Even if that's not you're goal that's going to be your result and if it's not your goal I'm not sure why you started this thread.


because i am going to need luck in the long run? ... opinions are not facts
as for the second part -- it is not applicable - because it is a gross mischarecterization of what i am trying to do
she will be taught along the way 
but that is not my primary focus



Yogiwick said:


> "Education is more important then strength/stamina (the part I'm disagreeing with"
> 
> ...?
> 
> The reason you're getting more out of your trainer is because people are hesitant to give you advice and if you need to be told "check your young immature horse is hurting after your ride her"... If her back is sore or her legs are sore there is ALREADY an issue.


how would you know if people are hesitant? are you psychic?
3 out of 4 people i know say 2 is the right age under saddle - 1 says start at 2, and under saddle at 3

none of those people are in the least bit shy




Yogiwick said:


> You seem to like black and white. I think she is COMPLETELY NOT ready to be started under saddle. Let alone by 170lb man. She is also COMPLETELY being started too fast and pushed too hard physically and your priorities are not in order for training. I don't think a complete beginner has any business starting a young horse that they have already had issues with, in part though not solely for the previous reasons.


thanks -- general consensus says it is NOT too early

but everyone else agrees that it is too fast and hard -- i accept that i am going to make adjustments


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Yogiwick said:


> I'm not going to quote posts you've already read to make a point.
> 
> I'm glad she is able to self exercise. My trainer will start them LIGHTLY (groundwork, wearing tack, moving up to basic lunge training, then maybe sit on them and walk around get off IF they're ready, then turn them back out. This is after having solid basic training and being handled regularly and properly since birth. Your filly doesn't have that if she's running people over and you're already FAR beyond that, at least in terms of physicality) in the fall of their 3 year old year. You have another year to go. If they aren't ready, which unless your filly has grown DRASTICALLY in a couple months she's not, then my trainer will leave them or maybe do JUST ground work and walking around with tack.
> 
> ...


you have misrepresented enough of what i have said that i am done - if you want to respond and offer advice -- thank you


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

sarahfromsc said:


> I think the point was a wee bit missed. These surgeries were needed not because of one sack, block, or tackle, but because of the _*repetitive*_ stress on joints. In other words the joints and surrounding tendons, and ligaments were 'washed up' before the age of 17.
> 
> The indicators were there along with the checking for heat and swelling. The 'band aids' were applied at an early age in the form of heat, ice, and physical therapy, but the pound of cure was the cost, when only an once of prevention was needed.
> 
> Again, the piper will be paid; with the horse paying the piper.


thanks sarah
that is good advice
i will keep it as minimal as possible for as long as possible
i don't want a broke down horse


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

jmike said:


> thanks sarah
> that is good advice
> i will keep it as minimal as possible for as long as possible
> i don't want a broke down horse


You don't want one.

To me, one of the saddest things to see is a horse, whose beauty and regal bearing lies in his speed, power, and agility, reduced to a crippled hobbling mess due to our egos and greed.

Thanks for listening Mr. Mike. Your little mare thanks you too.....:wink:


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

jmike said:


> everything is relevant
> your characterization of "baby" is innacurate
> i have done groundwork -- and intend to incorparet it into future training
> 
> ...


A horse is traditionally considered an adult at 4. The growth doesn't stop until after that. Most horses will have obvious growth until that point with some after. Horses are still learning basic "horse stuff' at that point. The horse I have seen is very immature physically and I'm guessing mentally as well. Maybe you don't like my terminology but it's justified.

What have you done for groundwork?

Sigh... you're missing the part where I am quoting a previous post then adding my thoughts to that post.

Again, I'm really stuck here. You're saying it's a "gross mischarecterization" of what you're trying to do. Then you proceed to say she will be taught but it's not your focus. How does that make me wrong? I'm genuinely confused here because you are saying completely contradictory things.

If teaching the horse is not your focus, do tell what your focus is..

I can also tell you that your focus not being on teaching with a young untrained horse with issues is WRONG. We are always teaching. We should always be teaching. This horse needs teacing. What else do you think she needs?

Of course I'm not psychic. Again, the point is to think outside the box and listen to what people other then your immediate circle are saying. They may be right. The issue seems to be black and white here, that seems to be what works for you best.

Does the general concensus say it's not too early? Why don't you post a current picture of the horse with you holding it and ask about riding the horse and how hard to work it.

I am offering advice. You are not listening. The reason I kept myself back from jumping in for so long is I knew things would be this way.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> No and Yes. - elaboration...be careful what you wish for.
> 
> I think we are all floating past one another in the dark. Perhaps it is simply a difference in definitions of "education". When Natural Horseman say "education" it is "foundation". A foundation is that upon which something is built.
> 
> With horses, that is things like ground manners, yielding to pressure, softness in cues, building a willingness for the horse to work with you, their leader, rather than simple stimulus-response - obey.


excellent definition, and one that i can understand and agree with
she needs more work with softness
she is good about hooking onto me and following me
she is NOT good about ground manners around people other than me
i am not completely sure what to make of that



Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> It is a construction of a two way communications system rather than simply picking up a bullhorn and shouting through it. It takes a lot of time to build the former, the latter is easy to do.
> 
> I think what most people here are seeing is that you are shouting at your horse through the bullhorn. That approach leads to a lot of problems down the way for a horse that will not be ridden by an experienced rider, nor will it be out cutting cattle 6 days a week. These are problems, people are trying to help you avoid.


i am not surprised that they feel that i am "shouting"
in reality i am being as gentle as i can be
use as much pressure as is necessary, but as little as possible
it is a fine line to walk, and i am trying my best

some are being genuinely helpful and helping me avoid issues
others are trying to force their opinions on others and using ridiculous argument tactics 



Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> But there is only so much you can say on the subject before it becomes clear that someone just isn't thirsty.


i am interested and open to discussion - i believe i have proved that for hanging around this long
i would love to hear more about best practices and procedures

but if someone wants to say she is too young to be started - they will need to prove it 
i have heard from several highly experienced people to say she is not too young
so .... if it were you ... would you listen to some forumn warriors that twist what you say and can't get simple facts straight, or to experienced people you know and trust?

logic would dictate that you go with what you know
but i am still open to listening to what people have to say about the best way to proceed.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

sarahfromsc said:


> You don't want one.
> 
> To me, one of the saddest things to see is a horse, whose beauty and regal bearing lies in his speed, power, and agility, reduced to a crippled hobbling mess due to our egos and greed.
> 
> Thanks for listening Mr. Mike. Your little mare thanks you too.....:wink:


it sad to see an animal, that is dependant on a human to take care of it, be let down and broken or mistreated

ego and greed have nothing to do with it for me

family safety comes first
followed by my responsibilities -- horses fall into this category
followed by comfort and self interests

family first, horse second, me third, the the rest

priority lists are easy


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Yogiwick said:


> A horse is traditionally considered an adult at 4. The growth doesn't stop until after that. Most horses will have obvious growth until that point with some after. Horses are still learning basic "horse stuff' at that point. The horse I have seen is very immature physically and I'm guessing mentally as well. Maybe you don't like my terminology but it's justified.
> 
> What have you done for groundwork?
> 
> ...


big sigh ... last post -- i have other things i need to take care of today

gross mischarecterization:
Building up strength and stamina in a horse without teaching it how that energy and power is supposed to be used is beyond idiocy:

i have already stated why it was wrong
feigning confusion and misunderstanding does not appear to be genuine
focus vs. primary focus --- subtle difference -- the second one implies a secondary focus

thank you for conceding the point that the people i know and trust might possibly be right
i would consider them more knowledgeable of the circumstances in the very least
if they had told me she was not ready to be started, i would still be trying to give her away -- they did not know this

yes - the general consensus says it is not too early - but precautions should be taken

the only advice i remember seeing from you is - she is too young and immature to start
correct me if i am wrong
so, she will be started, regardless of what your opinion is on whether or not she should be

normally at this point, i would ask for advice on how i should proceed, what kind of exercises we should do, what the intensity should be like, or even warning signs that i should watch out for ...... but since you are stuck in a "don't do this" loop, i will not ask, because you refuse to leave your box.

thanks for your time and feed back


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

jmike said:


> big sigh ... last post -- i have other things i need to take care of today
> 
> gross mischarecterization:
> Building up strength and stamina in a horse without teaching it how that energy and power is supposed to be used is beyond idiocy:
> ...


Well now you're basically calling me a liar, so yes, we are done. Rather rude and uncalled for.

I genuinely do NOT understand your writing style with lack of punctuation, capitalization, misspellings, etc and I keep on asking you specific things that you either ignore (you still haven't explained what your mean nor what your "primary focus is") or twist around; not sure if you're trying to be sarcastic, rude or just genuinely don't get it.

I have given you feed back. I am happy to give more. I told you what I would do (what my trainer would do) and if you have specific questions I will answer them.

This situation bothers me, but I would do my best to help make it as good as possible. The only issue is not listening to what's been said.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Yogiwick said:


> This situation bothers me, but I would do my best to help make it as good as possible. The only issue is not listening to what's been said.


that would be greatly helpful, so how about we start over?

i have a young horse, 32 months old, and she is being started under saddle.
she has had a total of 4 months of groundwork
1 month at 18 months
1 month at 24 months
2 months from 29-31 months

she has been started under saddle, and we are 3 weeks in - i am considering giving her a week off

do you have any suggestions on exercises that we can do?
do you have any suggestions on workout duration?
do you have any suggestions on workout intervals? (how many days per week)

what are your thoughts on 3 weeks on - 1 week off while working 3 days a week?

do you have sugestions on signs/symptoms to look for so that i can proceed safely?


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## A Gaber (Apr 30, 2014)

jmike,i am not as experience as a lot of people here,but i have shown this post to my trainer-the subject is quite interesting to me-so here is her take on it:
-the horse is never to young to start training,what kind of training is the question?
yours is not as young also she is not fully mature yet.
-family comes first that is the way it should be,your horse respect you and you sound like you established the pack leader thing with her.she follows you around and she listens to you right?but does she acts the same around ALL your family members,including the young ones?so you gonna be the one that need to teach her manners(foundation,ground work,common language,aids..all ABOUT the same).
that will give you and your family a way to communicate with her. example-thats the same thing that my trainer taught all her horse to do around her own daughter-when her mare puts her head down and pushing the kids around with her forehead, she taught the horse to back up when she lightly pushed on the fore head,so her daughters could stop the mare from pushing them around out of excitement and play.foundation work teaches them manners and a language through it every one in your family will have fun with her.
being under the saddle it could be done if only for very short period of time.the whole pepouse of your filly being ridin at this time,is just to get her accoustem to carring a weight on top of her.
like bodybuilding strength work should be heavy intense bouts but for a short time with long rests.endurance work is relatively light work But for LONG time.
since she is a filly, week off now sounds about right-like you said-give her a week off every month
my trainer also thinks that you are doing the right thing work wise just take it down a notch and the week off every month will make sure that she has fun too.
also the foundation work might looks easy and not be as physical as trotting per sa,but it is more stimulating mentally to the filly at this point.

her recommendation work at physical 3 days per week of 45 mins max(that including warm up and cool down)if, only if you feel that she could take more. only work at ground work (you will never have enough training there).do that for three week and one week off.you could work on foundation work or small small jumps or some thing along cavaletti work.(great to loose up the joints and easy to rig up with extra or cheap material if you into DIYs) during that week off and make sure she has most of that week doing nothing.
keep it light. always finish at the point when the filly is eager to do more.so next time you go into training she will be eager to work for you.you decide when everything is done not because she wants to.well that all what my trainer said in nut shell.
i recommend that you read about classical horsemanship.it is how the military or the cavalry trained their horses.most human and progressive way to train horses.hope that makes sense to you.good luck with her.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

A Gaber said:


> jmike,i am not as experience as a lot of people here,but i have shown this post to my trainer-the subject is quite interesting to me-so here is her take on it:
> -the horse is never to young to start training,what kind of training is the question?
> yours is not as young also she is not fully mature yet.


 
i agree with this



A Gaber said:


> -family comes first that is the way it should be,your horse respect you and you sound like you established the pack leader thing with her.she follows you around and she listens to you right?but does she acts the same around ALL your family members,including the young ones?so you gonna be the one that need to teach her manners(foundation,ground work,common language,aids..all ABOUT the same).
> that will give you and your family a way to communicate with her.
> example-thats the same thing that my trainer taught all her horse to do around her own daughter-when her mare puts her head down and pushing the kids around with her forehead, she taught the horse to back up when she lightly pushed on the fore head,so her daughters could stop the mare from pushing them around out of excitement and play.foundation work teaches them manners and a language through it every one in your family will have fun with her.


 
i agree with this to a certain extent
she is good around me and i have very very few issues with her in the respect department
my wife and kids are a different story though
i need to get them doing ground work/manners with her
i can't correct a problem unless the problem exhibits itself



A Gaber said:


> being under the saddle it could be done if only for very short period of time.the whole pepouse of your filly being ridin at this time,is just to get her accoustem to carring a weight on top of her.
> like bodybuilding strength work should be heavy intense bouts but for a short time with long rests.endurance work is relatively light work But for LONG time.
> since she is a filly, week off now sounds about right-like you said-give her a week off every month


that is excellent advise and i can get behind it since it allows me to do what i feel is necessary and takes into account her young age.
this week will have to be her week off since the weather is not cooperating
she has had 2 weeks on - 1 week off --- i can start again on Sunday if the weather allows it



A Gaber said:


> my trainer also thinks that you are doing the right thing work wise just take it down a notch and the week off every month will make sure that she has fun too.
> also the foundation work might looks easy and not be as physical as trotting per sa,but it is more stimulating mentally to the filly at this point.


sounds like she concurs with what most have said here.
it's not too early, but the work should be lighter and a little more varied (groundwork, walking, cues, along with lighter trotting sessions -- unless i misunderstood you)



A Gaber said:


> her recommendation work at physical 3 days per week of 45 mins max(that including warm up and cool down)if, only if you feel that she could take more. only work at ground work (you will never have enough training there).do that for three week and one week off.you could work on foundation work or small small jumps or some thing along cavaletti work.


she is definitely not ready for jumps of any size or cavaletti work
did she say only groundwork? as in no work under the saddle?



A Gaber said:


> (great to loose up the joints and easy to rig up with extra or cheap material if you into DIYs) during that week off and make sure she has most of that week doing nothing.
> keep it light. always finish at the point when the filly is eager to do more.so next time you go into training she will be eager to work for you.you decide when everything is done not because she wants to.well that all what my trainer said in nut shell.
> i recommend that you read about classical horsemanship.it is how the military or the cavalry trained their horses.most human and progressive way to train horses.hope that makes sense to you.good luck with her.


thanks for the help, i appreciate your insight and your trainers thoughts


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

I'm going to put one more thing out here, you keep mentioning that your horse has no manners around your family. From what I gather this is why others have told you to put her under saddle...... If I am mistaken, I apologize. 

However, if your reason for putting this mare under saddle is to teach her manners then you have completely missed the target, further more, building muscle and stamina in a questionable horse, and then expecting your wife and daughter to come in and be able to handle a horse that does not respect them will be grossly counter productive.

I have started several colts and restarted a handful more, some people get a lot done from the ground, I get more done from the saddle, and am typically inclined to recommend wet saddle pads, but there are situations where things need to be taken care of on the ground before they get worse, I believe this is one of them.

Were this my horse, or my project, i would give her another week of under saddle work, to finish out your 30days, and then i would take the next 60-90 days and concentrate on intensive ground work concentrating on your wife and child taking on a leadership role with this horse.

Jim


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

jimmyp said:


> I'm going to put one more thing out here, you keep mentioning that your horse has no manners around your family. From what I gather this is why others have told you to put her under saddle...... If I am mistaken, I apologize.


close enough - it was a decision i came to on my own, others have confirmed that it was the right thing to do



jimmyp said:


> However, if your reason for putting this mare under saddle is to teach her manners then you have completely missed the target, further more, building muscle and stamina in a questionable horse, and then expecting your wife and daughter to come in and be able to handle a horse that does not respect them will be grossly counter productive.


your logic is solid on this, but does not mirror the results i have seen
she has been calmer and more cooperative since starting (with me and whoever handles her)
farrier noted this yesterday when he did her feet
last few times she would kick out or even sit on him
yesterday was a completely different story

whoever handles and works her has little to no problems
strangers, and people who do not work her have problems



jimmyp said:


> I have started several colts and restarted a handful more, some people get a lot done from the ground, I get more done from the saddle, and am typically inclined to recommend wet saddle pads, but there are situations where things need to be taken care of on the ground before they get worse, I believe this is one of them.
> 
> Were this my horse, or my project, i would give her another week of under saddle work, to finish out your 30days, and then i would take the next 60-90 days and concentrate on intensive ground work concentrating on your wife and child taking on a leadership role with this horse.
> 
> Jim


this sounds like a solid plan, and i like where you are going with it
i will see if i can get the wife to cooperate (no one tells the wife what to do)
getting the kids to cooperate is easy

my only issue is i am not quite sure how to teach them how to do this
i know it well enough that i can do it
but knowing what to say and when to say it while someone else is doing the handling is a lot more difficult

generally i need to know something thoroughly to talk them through it


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## southernbound (May 17, 2014)

As long as we're talking about our trainers and their beliefs.... if I may interject. 

While Mike has openly admitted that he's inexperienced, he made a couple of points that others have taken issue with but that I actually agree with. He said (along these lines) that riding the filly has helped with attitude problems and others have said that riding and manners have nothing to do with eachother and that the attitude is actually an indication that she's not ready to be ridden. While I'm ALL in favor of giving a horse an excellent foundation, I have to disagree with others on this point and here is why:

I've had horses all my life and many of the horses I currently own have been broken in my me myself and I. I would never advertise myself as a trainer, but with a horse that I own and can take my time with day in and day out, I'm very comfortable breaking in my own horses. That is until my colt was born. He's out of a very well known cutting stud with mostly reining/cow lines. He was my first excursion into true working bred horses and let me tell you, from the moment he was born I was way out of my depth with him. No amount of ground work changed the way he was wired or the way he thought and by the time he turned two I knew that he needed to go to a professional or he was frankly going to kill someone. 

I found an excellent performance horse ranch with experienced, professional trainers that turn out winning horses every year and I left him with them, and they did ground work. Months and months of ground work and while yes, he was more respectful he was still the same crazy horse. He was reactive to an extreme, had to test everyone at every chance, could NOT stand still (he would stand where you wanted, as long as you wanted, but something on his body was always moving. Usually his feet.) Even his eyes just looked mad. I was borderline ready to give up and let them sell him for me. I was tired of paying to train a horse whose mind would just never be in it but his trainers assured me that sometimes with the working lines, they just change once get on them. As soon as they got him where they could get on him without worrying too much about him killing someone they did and you know what? No exaggeration, overnight I owned a different horse. He LOVES going to work. He loves getting ridden. His eyes are soft, he's responsive and respectful, groundwork became 100 times better, he actually retains things that he learns. I joke that they sold my horse and replaced him. I can take him anywhere, he went from the most reactive horse you've ever seen to absolutely unflappable.

I'm just saying, it's not the first time that I've heard of working lines improving drastically once they're backed, and I never believed it until I saw it firsthand. This is a concept that my trainers (a three generation business, the oldest has been doing this 60 years) firmly believe in this concept with their working lines.

Mike, you were mentioning your filly not respecting anyone else. I get where you're coming from here. On this one, I gotta agree that it's a human problem and your wife and daughter are the ones that need training on how to handle her. My colt is an angel for anyone that he has tested once and been put in his place. As soon as he knows that he has someones number he takes full advantage and some horses are just that way. Just my two cents.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

southernbound said:


> As long as we're talking about our trainers and their beliefs.... if I may interject.
> 
> While Mike has openly admitted that he's inexperienced, he made a couple of points that others have taken issue with but that I actually agree with. He said (along these lines) that riding the filly has helped with attitude problems and others have said that riding and manners have nothing to do with eachother and that the attitude is actually an indication that she's not ready to be ridden. While I'm ALL in favor of giving a horse an excellent foundation, I have to disagree with others on this point and here is why:
> 
> ...


sounds so similar to what i am seeing, but not to that extreme
mine will meet me at the gate when she thinks i am going to ride her

i completely agree that it is a human problem
i can put my foot down and teach the kids how to work her
but the wife is another story -- eventualyl i will win her over


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## dlady (Apr 13, 2013)

Jmike, I sent you a message.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

dlady said:


> Jmike, I sent you a message.


 just responded  you are too nice

thank you


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Almost did not get any time on her today
I got on her for a walking warm up -10-15 minutes minutes
Neighbor or took over
Worked on trotting/turning for about 20-30 minutes
then cooled her down and fed her

She did great
No heat in her legs/joints 2.5 hours after riding
Did not appear to have a sore back, but she enjoyed me rubbing the muscles around her withers

Her turning and ability to balance is amazing

Somehow she is able to put most of her weight on her front end and swing her butt around - like she is a race car drifting around a light pole
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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