# Zoe-What happens when you go for your dreams...



## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

Pics:


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## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

She is pretty. I can see how much you love her.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

lovely horse. hang in there!


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

Thanks. i am definitely loving this horse, and while she may be annoying with some things, I know those things come along with horse ownership. In the end, she is going to be a lovely horse. We just got to work together a bit to get there.


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## Werecat (Aug 23, 2015)

You and I are in very similar situations with similar horses. Except mine's a gelding, lol. Just here to show some support! Subscribing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

Werecat- I never really thought of myself as being a mare owner- but as people suggested in the forum- don't let the gender make the deciding factor.

Do I notice a difference between mares and geldings? Well, in my limited time of rounding up to 3 montsh- YES! So far, the differences I seen are: Mares are louder. Zoe is always calling out to Maddie- her paddock buddy who is also a mare- and Maddie is also calling out to her ( tho, Maddie seems worse).

I did ask before purchase if there as a difference when she was in heat, and the person said no. I suspect there will always be a slight difference in attitude- at least how I think about when I am on my cycle.

The other differences I dont know if it is because of her gender or if its more of a young arabian versus an older QH lesson horse. As of right now, she seems a bit more 'I'm gonna do it because I want to' in reference to the cow kicking, but I still have to fully establish myself as her leader. Magic pulled his stunts tho- he'd give you problems with letting you lift his feet to pick them- with him, you could go for his foot full force and either you'd eventually get it, or he'd rest all his weight on it and you'd have to move him back and forth a bit, then you can get it. With Zoe, if I go for her feet with that attitude, she seems to get more nervious. You have to approach her like ' lets work on letting me touch your hind legs, then lets work on lifting your leg' vrs 'we are hoof picking now'.

With that said, me and my fiance went to see her last night after her dinner. I do feel she recognizes me as her 'person' and she walked over to the stall door to be haltered. I take her out on the cross ties to groom her. She was nice and relaxed.

And still lifted her leg to cow kick. The first few times, I couldn't seem to get her with the crop fast enough- like she knew when the best time to do it would be because I wasn't the most prepared. But I did get her when she kicked out- tapped her leg with the wand and yelled-she was kinda like 'oh snap' but put the leg down.

Now, she did get a little mouthy. She sometimes likes to play with my coat- but this time, she was a bit more heavy with it- I think because she wasn't going to get away with cow kicking she was figuring to giv this a try. So, she got slapped in the nose.

Like everyone I am sure, I feel bad- but she cannot be picking up these habits. I feel bad if she truly was just playing- but even if she was, I felt her teeth a bit through my winter jacket ( she wasn't chomping down mind you) and I don't want her doing that.

One horse at the farm loves this one jacket I had- he would rub his lip over it and wiggle his lip because it made a funny noise-you knew he was just playing because he was gentle and simply having fun. With what Zoe was doing, I wasn't sure.

But she stopped. I was able to curry all her legs again and she was a nice relaxed horse. Steve even petted her and she was just as relaxed.

This sat is my lesson, and I feel comfy enough to ride her, so I am excited!!!


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

so, to update this: things are going very well with Zoe and I. I pick all her feet with no problems. I even groom her in the paddock and she stands there enjoying it. She even knickered a few times when I come into the paddock.

Bad news, I had lost my job, but my old job took me back. So, for about a week I was seeing her everyday- which was good- helped me bond with her and get my mind off the situation. I took her up to the indoor 2 times just by herself. The first day- was crazy. We have a guy who races standies and he was exercising them, and she just was so scared- dancing and trying to get away- she wouldn't bolt though. My BO helped me calm her, but you can tell she was a little on edge. We walked her in the indoor and she calmed down a little.

The second day went much better. The guy wasn't exercising his horses and she grazed just fine- she eats a little, walks around exploring the new area, then eats again. I walked her in the outdoor, she was curious because the other horses were around, but walked respectfully and we worked on our woes and walks. She did good!

She gets calmer and calmer on the cross ties each time. Maddie- her padock buddy- handles her being away a little better too. ALl in all, things are going great! tomorow I am riding her, and I am excited.


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## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

How did the ride go?


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

Been a while, hasn't it?

LOL, a lot of changes happened here, then topped off with the whole password speil. We moved to a trailer, had issues getting internet..yada yada...

onto the fun stuff: the horse.

Late response: the ride way back: didn't go so good. In fact, any ride by myself ( with my fiancee working) doesn't go good. But the good news is now I understand why. So, as of right now, I don't ride her outside of my lessons- which sucks- but this way we both have a more structured plan.

See, sometimes not really planning anything could be bad. When I leased the quarter horse, there was times we just putzed around- I didn't really ask the horse for much, even let the horse pick what it wanted to do to a certain extent ( if the horse had free choice completely, he'd just stop...lol) There would be times I would really focus on something- like trotting circle work, or just really working on getting the horse to bend.

With Zoe, its better to have a clearer goal.

On the job front- I got my old job back, so that is fine.

However, there was a moment in time where I was thinking: was Zoe the right horse? She was kicky... dancy... and I found her hard to trust. Now, I am not one to give up easily- heck, we have a bengal cat that loves to pop a squat- and in our trailer we made a room for her, tore out the carpet b/c she loves to pee, and basically made it that if/when she pees outside her litterbox, it will be easy to clean up- we thought about trying to rehome her, but who wants an adult cat that pees?

But I had said to Steve if this horse constantly kicks and doesn't show any improvement, I don't think it is going to work out. I just don't think I can deal with a kicky horse.

If you kept up with other threads, I mention she gets kicky during her heat, when girthing her up or when currying her belly- not the malicious I hate you so I am gonna kick kind of way.

Well, 2 things happened.

1-I read a meme that went something like this: you tell a stallion, ask a gelding, and discuss with a mare. (something like that)

It made me think of how I was approaching her to try to get her to do things. I found I was getting frustrated and while I don't think I was showing it ( like Magic, the quarter horse prolly wouldn't have really picked up on it) Zoe was picking up on it. Yeah, I am dealing with an Arab now, stop thinking of her like a lesson quarter horse. Yeah, I demand that she doesn't kick or pull when leading her back to her buddy, but I do it in a way to work with her more, not against her.

2- you may all laugh at this and it's ok. the second breakthrough I learned from Jackson- the guy from My Cat from Hell. Basically, what I took from the cat whisperer was that if I want Zoe to trust me, it's time I start trusting her. I have to trust she isn't going to kick at a kid walking by her. I have to trust she isn't gonna take a swipe at me when I am currying her rump. Mind you, I am watchful, but I am not all 'it's ok Zoe' as I do T-touch on her while a kid walks by. She actually became less nervous by me backing off some. I was probably making her think something may happen.

Also, it helps that she is settling in at the barn.

So, as far as the kicking goes- she hasn't kicked in a while. the worst I ever get is her lifting her leg- and its because of the evil fly spray that I just have to put on her.

I was told she isn't the best with fly spray and being watered down. So, now that its summer and these big green flies are out- she has to get fly sprayed. The first time- she is all over the place and all I really get is her legs. But I tried getting more each time. She isn't perfect, but today I sprayed her with just holding onto the lead line- if I spray her left side, she moves some, but I get her whole body. the right side she is ok with. So, we got improvement there!

I am currently working on teaching her to lunge. I am doing slow and steady steps. I only work with her for 15-20 minutes- today it wasn't very long at all, but I stop when I get her to walk a circle and woah on both sides. Its not the best walk, I haven't got her to pick up the pace, but she didn't stop til I said woah. So, for my small steps, it is a successful lunge, and her reward is to hand graze.

As for the riding-it is progressing. She is getting less buddy soar but does really want to stop at the gate. There are times where its hard to get her going, but I back her up, then turn her and we go. It's not always smooth, we may argue some, but I learned that sometimes I just have to stop ( and she stops) recollect my plan and redirect her focus, then start again. I make sure to end the lesson on a good note no matter how small it may be.

Using my legs on her is so different than Magic. It takes some experimenting and listening to her. In the end, she is a sweet, good horse, I just have to listen to her when she tells me in her way she doesn't like something. Now, she needs to listen to me when I tell her no you can't cut this corner big time to go to the gait- LOL- but I have to figure out how the best way to tell her is. We are getting there.

Right now: do I think I made the wrong choice in getting Zoe? No. I realized I had to grow as a rider and horse owner. I realize that yes, I may have to take 2 steps back with my riding, but that is what was needed for the both of us. She has to deal with a rider that isn't communicating with her the way she is used to, so she needs time to learn from me just as much as I have to learn from her.

She has calmed down greatly. Heck, my fiancee even held her, and he is scared of horses. I got him to groom her too- and yes, I said stick to currying her back, so naturally he is grooming her right on the loin area where she will usually kick: she didnt even lift a leg.

I say both Zoe and I made some great progress together, and we may be a ways off, we will get there one day.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Sounds like you are doing great with Zoe!! 

That trust is a difficult concept to understand, and it sounds like you GOT it! Horses are so clairvoyant, they know when you believe. You cannot fool them!


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## StephaniHren (Jan 7, 2016)

I think your story is a really great example of someone that bought a horse that was just a little bit over their head (experience wise), but instead of rushing into things and turning the relationship sour you're taking your time and making some huge improvements (both in yourself and in your horse!). She might be a little frustrating right now, but all of this work is going to pay off, I guarantee it. She's going to teach you so many great things.


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

StephaniHren said:


> I think your story is a really great example of someone that bought a horse that was just a little bit over their head (experience wise), but instead of rushing into things and turning the relationship sour you're taking your time and making some huge improvements (both in yourself and in your horse!)


YES YES YES times 1 thousand!

And no one likes to admit when/if they buy a horse a little higher than their experience level-but the way I see it, she was a horse in my bracket of experience- but on the higher end of the scale. I did ask my BO who went with me to see the horse several times on different days if she felt the horse was too much fo rme, and she said no.

The horse I leased there- it was totally the opposite- well beneath my level. Yes, there was things I could still improve on the horse, but the horse wouldn't really be able to take my further like Zoe would. Magic was a western horse most of his life, does english, does things well, but not the best.

What really knocked me down a peg was her kicking. It made me loose some confidence, and ergo made me a little scared of her. I can have the balls to say, yes, it was scary- tho she didn't kick meanly, but she succeeded in intimidating me and so she got away with things.

I was upset. I was frustrated. I didn't understand why.

Now, I don't like to do the whole breed discrimination, but there is a difference between taking care of a carn terrier and a pit bull. There is a difference between a lesson quarter horse and an arabian that was said to be good with beginners. It just took me owning an arab to really realize this and how hings can an dsometimes need to be approached differently with different breeds.

And the truth is, since she is a rescue- who really knows what her life was other than bits and pieces. We know she had a baby. We know at one point she was really trained well, and we know she spent a good chunk of time as a pasture puff.

I do believe, due to how many horses at one rescue have the name Zoe, that she was rescued, and returned about 3-4 months later. Could have been due to owner no longer able to take care of her, maybe the horse was too much, maybe she was very kicky and the owner gave up. Who knows- all I know is Zoe went into training for about 2 months before I got her- the rescue didn't really make much money off of the adoption fee of this horse.

Even though there was a point where I was debating throwing in the towel- what would happen if I got another horse and the same thing started back up? It very well could because while I do believe part of the issue was the horse adjusting to a new place and being a bit scared- part of it was me as well. Tho not intentional, I had too much expectations of Zoe. Once I backed off and took it down a few notches, everything got better. I may not be able to get on and ride like with Magic, but in time I know I will. We progress each lesson. It may not be fast, but it gets better.

A bit back, I was asking about mare magic due to Zoe being a bit more kicky and moody during her heat. I asked the vet about it, as well as signs of ulcers...

right now, I am not putting Zoe on mare magic. Why? She isn't kicking. If she doesnt like something- like being sprayed with flyspray, the worst she'll do is lift a leg, but then the 'Ah Ah' work. She doesn't follow through. In fact, she is getting MUCH better with being fly sprayed.

Maybe the first few heat cycles of the season were the worst of it. Maybe she was still adjusting and now learned to trust me more. But she doesn't kick when being girthed or when I curry her belly.

And another improvement- vet was out tday to give the rest of the vaccinations- and then the vet walked behind her- NO KICKING! ( first time she got shots, she sideswiped at the vet) At first I was like 'oh noes... don't walk behind her right after giving her a shot!' But Zoe didn't do anything but look. She was relatively calm th whole time.

Best thing of all- she nickered when she saw me coming to the barn this morning.

I feel, while maybe not perfect, we are communicating with each other better, and that makes a world of difference.



I no longer feel that she is too much for me since I lowered what I am expecting. She is going to be the perfect horse for me to get some experience with training a horse while being safe since she is really sweat and nice mannered- its not like I have an unbroken horse or a mean one, just working on lunging and understanding my cues ( while I learn hers).

Zoe will definatly take me far with my riding abilities, and my owning experience, and I can't thank her enough!


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## StephaniHren (Jan 7, 2016)

edf said:


> What really knocked me down a peg was her kicking. It made me loose some confidence, and ergo made me a little scared of her. I can have the balls to say, yes, it was scary- tho she didn't kick meanly, but she succeeded in intimidating me


I honestly believe that anyone that never feels intimidated around a horse is doomed to never grow as a rider. It's the moments where we're intimidated but we persevere that really help us learn. Every time you feel intimidated and then overcome that feeling is another notch in your belt—when you encounter that situation again with a different horse, you'll know how to respond and you won't feel that same nervousness.

That's why horses are so awesome, there's always more to learn!



edf said:


> There is a difference between a lesson quarter horse and an arabian that was said to be good with beginners. It just took me owning an arab to really realize this and how hings can and sometimes need to be approached differently with different breeds.


This is a wonderful attitude. It seems to me that a lot of people get on a lesson horse, do really well, and then think they're ready for anything... horses are nothing if not humbling.

Breeds with different sensitivities are definitely a thing. The difference between an Arab and a steady Quarter Horse are night and day, as you're learning. It's like a different style of communication at first, especially if you've got one of the more fiery Arabians. I'm sure Zoe will level out the more you become in tune with her. It's like a marriage in that communication is key.

Congrats on the shots without kicking!


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

So I go out to the barn a bit late today-as in the hottest part of the day. I dumbly thought it was gonna be cooler...

I only really groomed her and worked with fly spray...

But I am getting back into the routine of being more consistent with picking out her hoofs. Mind you, I do it, just not every time I see her...

Why? Its the next issue that needs to be worked on. Reason it wasn't the first was because of the fear of kicking.

Her front feet are no problem- its the rear. I can now curry her legs no problem. She is very reluctant to lift her back legs tho, and I don't want to demand too much because she wiped at me before.

So, trying my best to trust her more with this task, I go for the back left foot. After a little coaxing, she kinda rests it on the tip, and I try picking it up, and she gets the bad case of 'stiff leg'. 

Really horse?

But I guess my persistence paid out because I get her to lift her leg... but not she is doing the high lifts. I get her to relax with minimal swinging of the leg, and start to pick it out.

Guess what? She gets the bad case of 'I can't stay balanced on 3 feet'. For a split second I am thinking this horse is gonna go down...but I also don't want her to learn all she has to do is put weight and that'll make me let her put her foot down. So, I give her the classic 'Ah'ah' and stand my ground- she is starting to lean a bit in my direction- and I keep my grasp on her hoof. I tell myself if it gets more drastic, i'll bail out and suffer the consequence of getting her foot back up.

Well, I called Miss Priss out. In case you don't know or haven't figured it out, she really wasn't loosing her balance and was just trying to be the boss. And I corrected her, and she stopped.

She doesn't hold her back feet nicely for long, but I get them picked out and I don't let her put them down til she is steady.

The other side- no pretend balance loss, but it takes me moving her back and forth a little to get the back hoof.

I praise her. Now, going to work this into the routine more. 

If I get her out of them main field and am grooming her in the ring-I don't tie her up, I let her eat grass. I don't feel comfortable picking her feet then- and we haven't tried tying her yet. 

Now, the reason I groom her in/near the ring is because she is a little buddy sour. Its getting much better, but I like working her in the ring as apposed to a small paddock, so I just do the basic grooming there and ring work. Once I get even better with her, we will tackle working her further away from her buddy, Maddie.

I walk her around a little, but didn't practice lunging because it was hot and no shade. When I got her out of the mare field, they were standing in the shade, so I know she prolly felt hot already. The grooming was in the shade.

Gonna head over earlier tomorrow.


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

So, quick update.

I got Zoe to lunge nicely- even got her to trot a circle. Of course, when my boyfriend was there and some other barn girls, she totally forgot what to do...lol. I don't think I was quite with it that day. So, to end on a good note, I put th elead line on and hand trot her in the small paddock 2 times each side.

ANother note-I notice her back feet are dirty in the feather area. I am always on the lookout for scratches... and it looks like some may have formed on one back leg, and the white sock leg - feels clear but is looking kinda pink. I figure I'll wash them with the betadine solution and see how they look ( even after using a soft curry, never seems to really get that area clean) 

So, here comes the leg lifting... she don't like it at all. She lifts it high and moves it up and down- its very annoying, but never goes to kick and eventually relaxes. Going to dry it off with a paper towel gently gets the same reaction.

BUT bottom line, I am cleaning the area and drying it, and I am getting it done.

As far as the hoof picking- its the same thing. She will pick th ehoof up high at first and kinda move it around, but she doesn't do it as much.

She just may not be a fan of having her back feet worked with, but I think she is making progress. With the cleaning of the back of the heel, she just may not have been sure what was happening, and considering this horse hates water, I think she took it rather well. For the hoof picking, she relaxes quicker each time, but I don't dawdle with it, hoping in time I can keep her hoof up longer. I do decide when she puts it down-but to be fair, right now I am happy with getting the foot up, picking it out quickly, getting her to relax when she makes a fuss, finish the job and let her put her hoof down. Once she gets used to that, I'll hold the hoof up a little longer.

She was so sweat on the cross ties today. Heck, when we first came, she was out in her field across the river ( first time I saw her on the other side) We cleaned the stalls, and she was back on the other side of the river. I go to get her- sometimes she runs up, sometimes she doesn't. Well, she didn't run up but stood nicely as I got her. And she decides to lick my leg...

She stands calmly as I clean her and curry, and she is so relaxed. Such a change from the first month when I got her. My fiance is even petting her- his job is to check for ticks and for some reason, he loves checking her for ticks and pulling them out. He found something in her mane and is seeing if it's a tick- her head is so low as he is checking.

I am just amazed at how relaxed she has become. Sure, lesson days when there are a few more horses on the crossties she may not be as relaxed, but is still an improvement. And I know as time goes by- she is just going to get better! 

It may seem like a silly thing to be proud of, but I am so proud of cleaning the back of her back legs.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

Zoe is so pretty! Awww! Love reading about how she's doing, and it seems like you are doing quite well with her. It's all a learning experience.
So good to hear she's becoming more relaxed. LOL isn't that funny how if people are watching, they're like...oh no I'm not doing what you asked of me!:biggrin: Or they just show off. Everything takes time, exactly. You have the right idea! 
Yay for clean legs!!


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

The deal with her lunging- I am thinking she doesn't always understand what I am asking. Everyone has good days and bad days... I may not be asking right and sometimes she may not be focused the best.

Thing is: with riding- I think she at least was trained very good-nothing top notch mind you, but does stuff nicer than even the lesson horses, and some other things I don't think she was trained.

For example- she backs up staight- don't even have to nudge her to move when backing, just apply some pressure with the reins. She also stops squarely ( most fo the time). I think she steers better with seat- which is a shame for me because I am lacking a bit with that at the moment ( watching videos and such to improve my part in the equation).
I know she had time off, but was with a trainer for a few months when I got her.

Ideally, what I would love to do is have someone else ride her like once a week. I feel this will get her more arena time- basically, both me and the horse haven't done much riding- just in lessons. I had found a teenage girl who is at the barn alot- she is a very good rider- willing to do it, but BO states due to insurance, I can't have her ride the horse. It wouldn't be a permanent thing, I would like to do it for 2 main reasons:

1- to keep the horse in more work than now

2- someone else can ride the horse and ergo help me with what I may be lacking to communicate better.

Maybe I will just have to find someone on not affiliated with the barn, but I know I will have to buy my own saddle ( I borrow my BO's)

But as far as the lunging, gonna watch more videos on that, I may need to find a way to encourage her to walk more. I try using my voice and swinging the other end of the lunge line, but most of the time she just stops. I am not mad at her, just wish she understood english...LOL.

Have a lesson tomorrow morning, so we'll see how that goes.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

You need a lunge whip....


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

Greentree- I really was thinking that. It's just I was never taught to use a lunge whip when lunging. The lesson horses don't really need it, but I think she does.

So, I had my lesson today. It was rather blah-ish. I just can't seen to communicate with her what I want her to do. I don't want to sound like I am blaming the horse- its probably more of I am not aware of what I am doing wrong- but she just doesn't seem to listen. I have trouble getting her to turn. And now it seems a struggle to get her to stop.

As embarrassing as it may sound, I go back and read up on the basics- how to turn a horse. I read so many conflicting information- inside rein outside leg- try that, Zoe doesn't turn. Inside leg with small kicks inside leg- goes to trot- wont turn and wont stop til she gets to a fence. She throws her head up when I try to stop- I don't think in a she is in pain way, more of trying to evade the pressure (I hide in a halter)

IF I follow a horse, I think she is listening to my commands, but I don't know if she is just following.

The one good thing tho, I managed to correct her when she does the whole kick with her back leg when I apply leg pressure, so she wasn't kicking all the time.

Part of the problem is she just needs to be ridden more. I am not afraid of her, just need more confidence riding her. I fear if I ride her with just my fiance and me, she may get the best of me and therefore learn bad habits.

More lessons are an option, but I am starting to wonder if I really like my instructor's style of teaching. But I don't want to make any rash decisions...just gotta think things over for a few days.


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## StephaniHren (Jan 7, 2016)

edf said:


> It's just I was never taught to use a lunge whip when lunging. The lesson horses don't really need it, but I think she does.


Seconding the lunge whip. Horses don't respect the end of the lunge line the way they respect the whip, and it's a lot easier to flick them on the behind with the whip than the end of the line if you need to give them some extra convincing. Plus I find the whole process to be a lot more organized and coordinated with a whip.



edf said:


> I have trouble getting her to turn. And now it seems a struggle to get her to stop.





edf said:


> (I hide in a halter)





edf said:


> I fear if I ride her with just my fiance and me, she may get the best of me and therefore learn bad habits





edf said:


> More lessons are an option, but I am starting to wonder if I really like my instructor's style of teaching. But I don't want to make any rash decisions...just gotta think things over for a few days.


You need a new instructor/trainer. Your instructor, in my opinion, should be teaching you how to properly correct her behavior so that you feel more confident riding her when you're on your own. If you're not sure about how to properly get her to turn, you need to be able to trust your instructor to teach you how to use the correct cues to ask for a turn and to also teach you how to respond when your horse fails to submit to those cues. Ultimately, her goal should be to teach you to be a better rider by teaching you how to have a positive teaching impact on your horse.

It also sounds like she could benefit from some time with a professional trainer. I'm concerned that you said that you're riding in a halter only. I know that bitless bridles are a popular choice (and if you're looking for a similar feel to a halter you could always consider something like a sidepull), but a halter is meant to be used on the ground, not while you're in the saddle.

I think you're doing a great job with her so far, but at this point I would want a professional trainer to assess your horse for what type of bridle she's best ridden in, maybe fill in some gaps, teach her some manners, etc. 30 days with a trainer you trust and respect is always a great investment, especially if followed up with consistent lessons with a horse professional you really click with.

If you're not sure where to start with a new instructor/trainer, I'd casually ask someone whose opinion on horses you trust for the names of some local trainers and then schedule a time to meet with and possibly take a lesson from a couple of them.


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

StepheniHren,

from the way you seem to really get what I am posting, I think you are a mind reader...LOL.

Few things:

About the halter: I do have a dr cooks biteless bridle. I have tried her with it once- seems to stat out ok, but then she seemed to lift her head a lot. However, to be fair, Zoe does it with the halter too- I think to evade the pressure- it's always when I try to stop her, or try to use a little more reign to turn her. Mind you, I am not yanking, but I figure maybe a smidge more would work. But what I need to do is learn to use my seat better. I know its where I am lacking. But I guess with the bitless, I need to try it again to determine if it works any better. With the Dr Cooks it works with pressure going undeer the head and opposite side. The downside with that bridle is it could teach a horse to raise its head. I had one for the horse I leased, worked just fine. I'll use it more to see if she just lifts her head when trying to stop or carries her head high all the time ( if its the second one, I don't think it would be a good choice for her since she's carrying her head high- the bridle doesn't always have the quickest release, and it could bother some horses) I had such a good experience with that bridle I wanted to try it on her. If it doesn't work, I can always buy a side pull. I can use a bit- no reason she cannot be in a bit, I just personally don't like bits- I don't think they are cruel, I just don't like worrying about a bit in a horses mouth ( I tend to get too light with my signals due to fear of hurting the mouth)

ABout turning her- I had a bit more sucsess with the inside reign and small kicks with inside leg- of course turning my head and shoulders to where I want to go. Sometimes I feel it just depends on if she wants to cooperate. It seemed to work when I was following the instructors horse. For example, we are working on serpintines, and when se get to the end of the arena, we are to walk straight down the center. We are following, and suddenly Zoe wants to go to the fence to the left. I try to straigthen her out, but it just makes her pull away more. I do manage to turn her to face the other horse again, and then she follows and we get back in line. I do consider that a sucsess, but wow, it seemed like a big fight to fix it.

About the trainer- I agree with you. like 1-2 months ago I talk to the BO bout a really good rider riding Zoe. I even talked it over with the girl- she agreed. She isn't a professional trainer, but a very good rider. She'd ride the horse- first see if the horse acts with way with her or not. Since she is much more experienced, I think she wouldn't let the horse get away with some things. Also, this girl helped me with other horses- one of the lesson horses would stop, refuse to go and turn in circles ( the slow kind) I had no clue how to get him out of it. This girl helped me because she rode the horse and knew how to get him going again. This is also the horse I leased. SO, not only did I get him going again, I eventually figured out what triggered him to do that-you need quiet legs, and any extra leg yeilds just got on the horses nerves. Point is, I like how this other rider teaches me through the entire time working with me.

The BO gave me mixed answers. I did mention it to her during the lesson and I got yet another answer. Its ok if this girl rides my horse, BO just has to be there...which I understand, but is it going to be every time? See, because the initial plan was first, she would ride a little, then I would, and she would work with me with the horse, not the BO.

Now, if this didn't work, I would definatly get a professional trainer. A little back story on the horse: when I got her, she was in professional training for a few months... when I test rode her- she did everything I asked. None of this stuff that is going on now. But since I got her in winter, and she took a bit to settle, she was only minimally rode in the first few months. Due to the fact I don't feel comfortable riding her on my own, we haven't rode that much. So I don't blame her- I even try to not blame myself-but I just want to be able to work with her as a team when I ride.


I feel guilty, but I did find a stable like 10 min walking distance from my house- the trainer does high level stuff- I think it is a jumping barn BUT she teaches dressage too... 25$ for 30 min for her to ride your horse...I think she could help Zoe if this other girl can't. But i'd have to move barns ( and I would loose an indoor arena). I am not making rash decisions tho...but in the end I have to decide what is going to be best for me and my horse riding wise.

As it stands now, I'd like to see how the girl at the stable handles Zoe, if that works, she can help me. If not, look into a professional trainer for sure.

Thank you for your response. I greatly appreciate it.


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## StephaniHren (Jan 7, 2016)

edf said:


> About the halter: I do have a dr cooks biteless bridle. I have tried her with it once- seems to stat out ok, but then she seemed to lift her head a lot. However, to be fair, Zoe does it with the halter too- I think to evade the pressure- it's always when I try to stop her, or try to use a little more reign to turn her.


Avoidance of contact isn't surprising in an unfinished horse. It's a symptom of a bigger problem, which is that they're not lifting their belly up/using their back when they move. She's hollowing out to avoid using her top line and her hindquarters. (My pony tries to do it, too, it makes her look like a silly giraffe.)

This will sound counter intuitive, but the solution to a horse that avoids contact is to actually ride with _more_ leg. You should always ride your horse from back to front (control the hindquarters, then the shoulders, then the neck/throatlatch/head). Her hindquarters should be underneath her, and the added impulsion should help push her down into the bridle. It's hard to have a horse down on the bit (or even the lack of bit, in your case) when you're not pushing her energy to the bridle.

I don't know if you're riding English or western (I'm an English person myself, I've come to find), but the principles are close to the same. Putting your leg on doesn't just mean forward, it means head down and lift with the back. (Sometimes when my pony's being belligerent I might even draw my spurs up, like I'm physically lifting her belly for her—that always gets the message across).



edf said:


> But what I need to do is learn to use my seat better.


Again, might be a difference in disciplines, but I've always been taught _never_ to drive forward with my seat. It's a big factor in stopping and I can shift my weight slightly for turns, but focusing too much on my seat always has me leaning awkward in the saddle during my turns (bad, I'm not supposed to lean). Then again, I jump, so my seat's barely ever in the saddle anyways. 



edf said:


> I can use a bit- no reason she cannot be in a bit, I just personally don't like bits- I don't think they are cruel, I just don't like worrying about a bit in a horses mouth ( I tend to get too light with my signals due to fear of hurting the mouth)


You should give yourself more credit! Millions of beginner kids ride in snaffle bits all the time without causing any damage. Personally, I think that a good snaffle bit is pretty much just as gentle as any bitless bridle. Curbs get trickier, but it's hard to mess up with a really mild loose ring or full cheek.



edf said:


> I had a bit more sucsess with the inside reign and small kicks with inside leg- of course turning my head and shoulders to where I want to go.
> We are following, and suddenly Zoe wants to go to the fence to the left. I try to straigthen her out, but it just makes her pull away more.


Horses move away from pressure. If you're using the inside rein and your inside leg, no wonder you're having trouble. Turns should be executed with both inside and outside rein (horses are like rivers, when they turn both banks have to turn to keep the river between the banks) and a press of the outside leg to push them away from the wall. Circles should wrap around your leg, but it's still your outside aids that give the circle its boundaries.



edf said:


> It seemed to work when I was following the instructors horse.


Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on a second. Is your instructor _riding_ during your lesson? Okay, yes, GET A NEW ONE. I can't imagine teaching while also sitting on top of my own horse... instructors should be 100% focused on you from the ground, where they can see all of the things that you can't see and coach you through the moves you're having trouble with.



edf said:


> She isn't a professional trainer, but a very good rider.
> I just want to be able to work with her as a team when I ride.
> I feel guilty, but I did find a stable like 10 min walking distance from my house-...I think she could help Zoe if this other girl can't.
> As it stands now, I'd like to see how the girl at the stable handles Zoe, if that works, she can help me. If not, look into a professional trainer for sure.


I think you're thinking about all of this the wrong way. You're thinking about the horse like it's a problem that needs to be fixed, but in my opinion you should be looking for someone that can work with you to help you learn the tools you need to fix the problems yourself. You won't get that from the girl at the barn, you need lessons with your horse with a great, dedicated trainer.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Steph's posts are SO awesome!!

Edf, are you riding in a halter at a lesson? That is the time I would definitely put a bit in her mouth....

Have you been reading @Acadianartist's thread calked 'desensitizind Kodak"?? It is a classic example of needing to learn to communicate with a horse. 

Even if the cues were the same horse to horse, every horse requires a different amount of pressure in one area or another....WE are required to test that to find it out.
How else will we know? It does not hurt the horse to try. Some horses require a TOUGH presence in the beginning, some require a soft presence. Like the difference between talking to someone who is soft-spoken, and a boisterous, outgoing person. You adjust yourself.....but first, you have to test and know.


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

Wow, guys, thanks for all the feedback!

To clarify a few things:

I am riding english.

When I say ride more with my seat- I don't mean for going forward, but to help steer and ect. 

About the turns- see, I read so much different things, and I tried them-to the best of my ability-and the one that got th ebest reaction was the inside rein and small kicks on inside leg HOWEVER I don't think I tried using both legs... kinda feel silly now...LOL.


So yeah, sometimes the rider rides with us... sometimes not. But even when she isn't riding, I don't always feel she helps me the best. It is group lessons most of the time ( I clean stables for lessons, so I don't have to pay but don't get to pick private lessons). We mostly have riders at my level or below, so sometimes the other rider is really getting stuck. Or what erks me is I get a helper to work with me, but they don't really help ( FYI- I know enough to help a newb out, but I am horrible at teaching, hence why I don't participate in helping with lessons)

Now, for this other girl- when she is there- she really helps me. Helps refine my posture, ways to get the horse to focus on me better and ect. She will help me with aspects of communicating with Zoe better- at least better than my regular lessons. I also feel more comfortable asking her questions and all. I didn't mean to come across that I think Zoe has problems-but I know I need to learn things to correct behavior myself and work better with her. But yes, it is really making me think about my lesson situation... makes me consider the other barn more but i'd hate to leave.

Greentree- I'll have to get measurements for the horse and buy a bridle with a snaffle bit. I'll start using it in lessons- tho I will probably work with her with getting it in and out of her mouth- I know she was a bit touchy with that when she was tacked up when I went to see her. I just always fear the worst-normal situations I m pretty good, but I fear what if she spooks and jumps forward and I don't follow the best and crack her teeth and ect. But I don't always catch myself yanking on the reins when she spooked prior ( She don't always spook alot tho... but see how my fears get the best of me?)

I will defiantly read that thread you suggested. Thank you for recommending it. Zoe and I may be having some issues now, but I truly want to overcome them- especially if it is something I am lacking in.


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## StephaniHren (Jan 7, 2016)

greentree said:


> Have you been reading @*Acadianartist* 's thread calked 'desensitizind Kodak"?? It is a classic example of needing to learn to communicate with a horse.


Oooh, good thread recommendation. And thanks for the praise! :wink:



edf said:


> About the turns- see, I read so much different things, and I tried them-to the best of my ability-and the one that got th ebest reaction was the inside rein and small kicks on inside leg HOWEVER I don't think I tried using both legs... kinda feel silly now...LOL.


Circles and turns are really hard, so don't feel silly. I've spent entire private lessons just working on circles. They're a huge test of your control over the different individual parts of your horse's body. I "talk" a lot during them—I bump my pony's barrel or shoulder or hip all the time until I have the bend that I want with the impulsion I need to make it a good circle. I learned a lot like you did (using the inside leg), and now I have the pleasure of riding a pony that will completely blow through your outside aids and wander out of the turn if you're not consistently holding her in the circle with your outside rein/aid.

So yeah, both legs. Think really hard about where she's going wrong and think about where you need to put pressure to fix it. For now I would just start with the idea of moving away from your leg to make turns. The softening and the bend can come later, after your steering is more consistent.



edf said:


> It is group lessons most of the time ( I clean stables for lessons, so I don't have to pay but don't get to pick private lessons).


I am 95% convinced that _nobody_ really learns anything in group lessons. There's a reason a lot of programs require their students to start with private lessons. Private lessons are where the real learning gets done, group lessons are more of a controlled setting where you can practice things you're learning with some occasional guidance. If you can't afford private lessons, I understand, but I would consider it. Even one private lesson with a great teacher can give you food for thought for months of riding on your own.



edf said:


> Now, for this other girl- when she is there- she really helps me. Helps refine my posture, ways to get the horse to focus on me better and ect. She will help me with aspects of communicating with Zoe better- at least better than my regular lessons. I also feel more comfortable asking her questions and all.


I wonder if this girl is a good teacher for you, or if she's just better than what you have now. If I were in your shoes I would stop taking lessons with your current instructor, maybe schedule some time with the girl (and pay her for her trouble) so that she can give you some pointers, and still shop around for a real instructor/trainer.



edf said:


> I'll have to get measurements for the horse and buy a bridle with a snaffle bit. I'll start using it in lessons- tho I will probably work with her with getting it in and out of her mouth- I know she was a bit touchy with that when she was tacked up when I went to see her.


If you're nervous, why not ride with both? Put the halter on and put the snaffle on over it. Have two sets of reins, one that goes to the snaffle and one that goes to the halter. Use the snaffle when you're comfortable with it, then if you get nervous switch to the halter. Make it your goal to use the snaffle more and more every ride. Before you know it you'll be riding consistently in the snaffle.

I really really really love reading this thread. I'm so excited to see where you guys are a couple of months, six months, a year from now, etc. You're doing great, and I think with a little guidance from a better instructor you'll do even better!


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

I really find comfort in reading your responses. 

As for a different instructor, like official one- the one there, the BO, is the only one. I don't know how she would react if I would want the other girl teaching me for the 'actual' lesson. See, the BO said it was ok to have this girl work with Zoe and myself, she just has to be there. I don't know if its just in the beginning or all the time. Finding a time where all 3 can do it will be more of a challenge, and once school starts, she'll have to go to school ( she is 17). I know she is young BUT she is a good rider and gives very good instruction. She isn't a trainer, but she gives me good direction.Gives me things to think about and aids to help some of the issues. 

But I am really bummed about the lessons now. I tend to get frustrated mostly with the instructor. I guess when I didn't own a horse, it was more like 'eh, whatever, I am learning something, but it's free' kinda spiel. Riding a lesson horse, and even leasing, it was simple. Yes, there was things I needed to improve on, but I could communicate to the horse what I wanted and accomplish things easier because I understood the horse better. Now that I have a new horse that needs different communication, I have admitted I need to go back to the basics and learn things the way it works with her, I feel like the instructor feels like I should already know this and when I state I am having trouble getting the horse to turn ( be it whoever's fault- horse not listening or me not giving the right signals) her response is 'use all your riding abilities to fix it.' Obviously it's not quite working. I also feel there are some 'holes' in my riding. Her horse I leased would turn with the inside reign and inside leg...but Zoe needs more.

I do agree its the lack of good communication. When I did ride her out of a lesson a bit ago- I did move her laterally over to the fence like perfectly- at was awesome! But if you think about it, the horse isn't being ridden that much, nor am I riding as much as I used to. When I leased, I rode 2-3 times a week. Now, its just lessons. I just don't want to have a bad ride after a bad ride to teach her bad habits...but I want to ride her more.

BUT I did watch video's on lunging with the use of a lunge whip. I don't know how much control I will have with one of them, I'll get one and play with it myself ( as in not use it near a horse til I get a good feel with it) . This way, I could work with communicating with her on the ground better and work from there.

This whole speil is one of those things you don't always think of when getting your first horse. No, I knew it wasn't going to be kitty cats pooping rainbows all the time, but I was hoping to be riding her more. The good thing tho is it isn't discouraging me. First, if I get rid of her and get another horse- there is probably a chance it will happen again, and it could end up worse. Zoe may seem a brat at times, but she is a sweet mare, and isn't dangerous. Second- unless a horse is dangerous- I don't believe in giving up that easily. After all, I wanted a horse. And sometimes this is what comes with owning a horse.


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## StephaniHren (Jan 7, 2016)

I really find comfort in reading your responses. [/QUOTE]

That's really nice to hear! I always worry I come off as sort of "preachy". 

In that case, I think that you should keep the peace with your current Barn Owner. Maybe stock up on questions you have during your lessons and then ask the 17 year old for advice when she has a moment, plus have her available to help you in lessons if possible.

However, this should be _temporary_. Your main goal should be to find a new trainer/instructor. My barn has a 17 year old working student that I also find insightful, but learning from her is nothing like learning from my trainer. I wish I could explain in words how important it is to have a mentor figure like that. I've had a lot of good instructors, but none of them have even come close to my current trainer. She's taught me so much about the mentality of a horse and how to ask for and receive the results I want while I'm in the saddle. She teaches me principles that are universal between all horses, and my riding abilities have grown leaps and bounds because of it.



edf said:


> I also feel there are some 'holes' in my riding. Her horse I leased would turn with the inside reign and inside leg...but Zoe needs more.


Don't feel bad about those holes. Everyone has them at the point you're at. When we first get on a horse, they put us on easy horses and our goals are simple: stop, walk, turn, etc. You start feeling confident because you get good at riding the lesson horses. Then you get to the day where you end up on a "real" horse—like Zoe—and suddenly you realize that not all horses have the buttons pre-installed for you. You know how to press the buttons, what you need to learn is how to _install_ the buttons.



edf said:


> I just don't want to have a bad ride after a bad ride to teach her bad habits...but I want to ride her more.


KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid)—pick one thing you want to get right while you're riding by yourself, and make that your goal. Maybe you just want to turn a circle. Focus on that. Then pick something else for next time. There are three types of rides: the ones where your horse learns bad habits, the ones where your horse learns good habits, and the ones where you coast along, just maintaining what you've already taught them. Aim for one of the last two and you have a successful ride. You just have to go one goal at a time.



edf said:


> BUT I did watch video's on lunging with the use of a lunge whip.


Watching videos is a great way to fill in gaps while you're without a good trainer! Lunge whips seem really awkward, but they're actually very easy once you get the hang of it. There's never any downside to more groundwork, anyways.



edf said:


> The good thing tho is it isn't discouraging me.


Good attitude to have! Like I said originally, you bought a little more horse than you were probably ready for. There's bound to be a learning curve, but when you make it past that you're going to have a great horse.

GO TRY OUT THAT OTHER TRAINER.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Edf, glad to help! Wish i could be there in person.....we have a lot in common. Hope i don't sound like a stalker.

Do not be hard on yourself. Riding and driving have that " look"....like the rider or driver is "just" sitting there. But to ride( especially an untrained or semi-trained) horse requires a TON of invisible body control! Control of each of those body parts independently......and that takes a LOT of brain training!


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

Sooooo... I wish you two could have seen my past lesson and just earlier today with lunging Zoe. Yes, you would have seen some issues, but you would have also seen ( cue drumroll) me turning the horse AND getting my horse to lunge!

For the lesson: I do think I need to find another instructor. I do feel I need more assistance with working with Zoe than I am currently getting, but the good news is I read up and watch videos on my own as well. they can only do so much, but I remembered to use the outside leg too. What I find tho, is I do have to use the inside small kicks too.

This lesson the horse did seem alot more focused. She was having more of a lazy day, but I got her to turn. The bad news is, she is obsessed with one side of th ering due to it butting up to the field that her mare friend is, so when we are over near it, she pulls and wants to stand and look at her girlfriend. So , there was some fighting, she still pulled away from pressure on the reigns.

I did use my bitless bridle, however, I didn't se eany more pulling than I did with the halter. In fact, I think she listened better with it ( due to being able to communicate with her better)

So, I did get stuck at times with her ont he one side of the fence. SO, once I got her on the other side of the ring and we were walking towards the side that butts to the field, I'd turn her in a tight circle. Every time I felt her pulling toward the fence I would do the circle, sometimes 2-3. I worked most of the time, and I would eventually walk her closer, but sometimes she won. I do try to turn her against the way she turned ( like, when she goes left and doesn't listen to stop and looks over the fence, I try to turn her to her right to face away and walk on) It didn't always work- she wouldn't budge and she would lift her head and pull it away. So instead of fighting, I turned her left and got her to face away and get her walking away. 

I did feel confident enough to work on some trotting- I'd get her to trot, but it wouldn't last long. First, I have to learn to balance her trot better, and second, sh ewas having a lazy day. If I had a crop I could have kept her going, but since most of the time I have to work to keep her slower, I didn't even bother bringing it. Which was fine- I focused more on steering her and getting her to turn. I am happy that I got her to trot the few times I tried.

Now, about the lunging:

I did go out and buy a lunge whip. Its a lightweight one, and I played with them in the store. This one is pretty long even if the thin part wrapped around the handle. I was thinking more along the lines of waving the long handle around and slapping the ground at first to see if that gets her going. So, today I bring that up along with my dessage crop. I like to start with 'less is best', so I opt for the dessage crop. Naturally, after I spend $$ on a new item, what I already have works... So, I got Zoe to respond with the dessage crop. She gets th epoint of me asking her to walk on better, and if she starts to slow, I just slice the crop through the air and that noice it makes ( not cracking) gets her going. Sometimes she trotted off, and then I would hid the crop and ask her to walk, and she did. One time she trotted off too fast and wasn't really turning, so I asked her to walk and I did keep pressure on the lunge, but walked towards her. She slowed and circled around.

Its no perfect- sometimes she does stop and even popping the crop on the ground she just looks at me, but generally she is getting the idea.

The only down side is one of th eother boarders who works with training his Standies for racing was in the outdoor ring. We were using the indoor, and while she was in there before, ts been a bit. I walked her around a lot and she calmed down quickly, but we still heard the other boarder clucking and encouraging his horse to run. We'd hear the horse trotting fast, and at times, Zoe was more focused on that. She would stop lunging and lift her head up and look in that direction. His horse must not have been listening the best since we heard a lot of commotion. However, I had worked Zoe a bit and figured not to press my luck. We may have stopped lunging, but I walked her around the arena for a bit. I want her to not be bothered when the other boarder works his horses because it sounds like we will always be there at the same time ( when winter comes, it may be an issue if we are both trying to use the indoor, so we may have to come up with a schedule)

All in all, it was a good weekend. I learned with lunging to be a bit more assertive, and therefore made my signals and what I wanted her to do more clear. I am excited to work with lunging more with her because I know it will help with riding work.

 Just figured I'd update the progress.

Oh, and I did the MOST HORRIBLE thing ever to my mare this morning... it was so terrible to Zoe.... I put swat in her ears...LOL.

And she actually lifted her hind legs for picking... at first I was kinda like WTH?? She still lifts them obnoxiously high, but hey, i'll take it. She may not be the best yet, but she is getting better.


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## StephaniHren (Jan 7, 2016)

edf said:


> Sooooo... I wish you two could have seen my past lesson and just earlier today with lunging Zoe. Yes, you would have seen some issues, but you would have also seen ( cue drumroll) me turning the horse AND getting my horse to lunge!


This post gave me the warm fuzzies. Nice job! 



edf said:


> For the lesson: I do think I need to find another instructor.


I definitely agree and think if you can find a better instructor that also teaches out of a better barn (closer to you, nicer facilities, or whatever criteria you think fits the definition of "better"), you should definitely leap on the chance. If not, bringing an outside instructor in is always an option (but be warned, it can result in potential problems with the resident trainer).



edf said:


> I read up and watch videos on my own as well. they can only do so much, but I remembered to use the outside leg too. What I find tho, is I do have to use the inside small kicks too.


I always approve of searching YouTube for videos of anything and everything you're having problems with. And I find that a combination of legs does me well with my circles, too. There's a whole bunch to learn about the idea of opening and closing aids in order to properly control a horse's body. The more you learn about the theory behind it all, the better equipped you'll be to handle new situations and problems that you haven't encountered before.



edf said:


> The bad news is, she is obsessed with one side of th ering due to it butting up to the field that her mare friend is, so when we are over near it, she pulls and wants to stand and look at her girlfriend. SO, once I got her on the other side of the ring and we were walking towards the side that butts to the field, I'd turn her in a tight circle. Every time I felt her pulling toward the fence I would do the circle, sometimes 2-3. I worked most of the time, and I would eventually walk her closer, but sometimes she won.


This is a focus/boredom problem. My mare does it sometimes, too. She's bored with what we're doing (usually taking a walk break or warming up at the walk), so she looks around at other things instead. Your goal should be to get her attention back on you. Circles can do that, but they can also teach her that if she makes a fuss she can stay on that side of the arena (and closer to her friends) longer. When my mare's not paying attention, I usually push her up into the trot and make her give me some serious forward effort. She's bored? She can do ten minutes of working to extended trot transitions (IN FRAME) until she's not bored anymore. Like my trainer says: there's rarely a time when asking for more forward motion is a bad thing.

Since you're not comfortable trotting yet, I'd say push for as much forward motion as you're comfortable with. This is something you need a trainer to walk you through, since it can turn into a confrontation (and it's really important to win the fights you pick). They could also walk you through the idea of framing her up, since I can guarantee if she has the presence of mind to be looking around, she's probably not as focused on how she's using her body as she should be.



edf said:


> It didn't always work- she wouldn't budge and she would lift her head and pull it away. So instead of fighting, I turned her left and got her to face away and get her walking away.


Yep, this is what you need a good trainer for. And a crop or a pair of spurs (but only after you have the good trainer).



edf said:


> I did use my bitless bridle, however, I didn't see any more pulling than I did with the halter. In fact, I think she listened better with it ( due to being able to communicate with her better)


Very awesome! I'd keep riding with that from now on, until you have a trustworthy trainer that can evaluate what's the best option for her.



edf said:


> I'd get her to trot, but it wouldn't last long. First, I have to learn to balance her trot better, and second, sh ewas having a lazy day. If I had a crop I could have kept her going, but since most of the time I have to work to keep her slower, I didn't even bother bringing it.


Are you posting? It might be easier if you post your trot instead of sit it. Sitting can be hard for people in the beginning. The best way to learn how to sit a trot is to do a lot of work without your stirrups at the trot (even better if you're on a lunge line), but you've got to be confident and in control before you can do stuff like that. It's definitely not a skill that's as easy as people make it look, especially if you've got a bouncy horse to begin with.



edf said:


> Its no perfect- sometimes she does stop and even popping the crop on the ground she just looks at me, but generally she is getting the idea.


If this is still happening, then you should be using the lunge whip. There's a reason it's so long.



edf said:


> I walked her around a lot and she calmed down quickly, but we still heard the other boarder clucking and encouraging his horse to run. We'd hear the horse trotting fast, and at times, Zoe was more focused on that.


Again, a good time to work on getting her to focus on you, not on what's happening around her. A lot of transitions, a lot of cues, a lot of making her think while she's on the line. You don't necessarily need to stop and walk her around (she's excited and belligerent, not scared), but you should make a lot of requests and expect her to listen to all of them. You can always bring the line into a smaller circle if she starts getting to fast, too.



edf said:


> Oh, and I did the MOST HORRIBLE thing ever to my mare this morning... it was so terrible to Zoe.... I put swat in her ears...LOL.


TORTURE. Just wait until you get to the point where you need to clip her ears...


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

> Circles can do that, but they can also teach her that if she makes a fuss she can stay on that side of the arena (and closer to her friends) longer


I understand what you are saying- but wanted to pipe in that 90% of the circles was on the other side or th earena ( not close to her buddy) I figured since she is having an issue at the other end, I remembered doing circles was a good way to help keep the horses focus, so I did figure 8's on the opposite side for a bit, and she was doing good, and when ever I'd be walking toward the fence that butts against the field, I'd make her do a few circles, and walk up the center line. If she'd start to wander/pull toward the buddy fence, I would do circles- ideally away from the buddy fence. When I was in the center of the ring- I could get her to turn away easier, but when I started slowly approaching the buddy fence closer, that was more problematic. I think the plan I had was mostly a success. She definately was more focused, but did tend to loose it near the buddy fence... but hey, small steps

So, when I do work closer to the buddy fence, what else can I do to help keep her focus on me? Trotting won't be the best- I actually did make her trot, but she still wasn't focused ( her head totally pointing out and she was kinda trotting diagonally) Once I get more comfortable, I am sure it could be handled better, but at the time, I know I wasn't really in control of her the best.

ABout my trotting- yes, I am posting. I'd say I am decent at it- it just comes down to a new horse with a slightly different feel to it, so I have to get better at posting on her. Plus, build back up that muscle due to not riding as much as before and not posting as much as before. She had a lazy day- and I actually wish I did bring my crop up because I did feel confident enough to work her faster. It will be a goal for next time!

I was thinking along the same lines with the lunge whip too last night as I was laying in bed. I should have picked it up- but it was my first time using a crop along with lunging, so it was a learning experience for me as well. I'd rather go too slow than too fast. The dressage whip, I felt, was kind of a nice starter to see how she would react, and let me get used to using a different type of aid. So, the next step would be to lunge her using the lunge whip.

My goal is definatly to get her to focus on me with lunging, and I felt we did pretty good. I wasn't too sure how she would do in the indoor since it had been a while, and she is all alone with just me. But for all thing considered, she did great. That lunge lesson was kind of a trial. I wanted to use a new aid that was new to me to see how she would react and ect. Now that I learned more, I can ask for more next time.



thanks for your input! Its always greatly appreciated!


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

So I went to ride Zoe today on my own ( well, fiance was there) I lunge her a bit with the saddle on, and things went well. I did better to make sure she stayed focused on me, and even got her trotting on the lunge line. I then mount her.

Things start off normal- now she is in love with the back of the arena because her 2 boyfriends are there. But I do get her to turn well. I can tell she does want to fight to get tothe other side of the ring, but I was more confident to give her some shoulder slaps to tell her I am not taking this from you.

Soooo... guess what? We did some very nice serpentine's and figure 8's. I was getting her to do them much easier than the lesson horse I used to lease- wow, she can be so easy to steer at times ( didn't think I would be saying this so soon huh?) She would still go to trot to try to get to the other side or pull a little, but I always corrected her, and made her do what I wanted- this is where I would do the serpentines and weave between some poles on the ground- get her to do something to not get bored. About halfway through my ride, she is paying more attention to me, but I can tell she wants to move a bit faster. I feel confident enough to trot her as long as she still listens. While she did get a little pully at the other side of the ring- I keep her trotting past her boyfriends and get her to turn and listen still. AND do some serpentine's while trotting. Oh how she wanted to stop and not trot away from the Standies, but I got her to keep going and only stop when I wanted her to.

It went well. At the end of the ride I even was able to let her walk on a very long rein- I basically let the horse decide where to go since we are just cooling off. Yes, we did hang on the back half of the ring, but she kept walking. Her head was nice and low and she was licking.

I actually had a very nice ride. Getting my confidence back!


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

Well, just got back from the stables.

Good news is she is out in the main field more now. This morning, she was by the gate.Got her easily and discovered the bad news: since she is in the big field, we now have to take out burrs from her mane and tail. Luckily, she wasn't a unicorn.

The BO had one of her horses out to graze,and it happens to be one of Zoe's 3 boyfriends. So she is a little more frisky on the cross ties, but everything went well. Pickig her feet out is much easier, lifts her back hoofs up a little high but relaxes quicker.

Lunging is going very well. Working on voice commands- she walks on nicely, but we have to work on woahing. She does ok, but could be better.

While I was lunging, her other 2 boyfriends are put out in their field, so naturally she wants to focus on them, but I don't allow the distraction. I keep her going and make her work even with them looking at her. 

Things are going rather well.


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## StephaniHren (Jan 7, 2016)

edf said:


> Soooo... guess what? We did some very nice serpentine's and figure 8's.
> I feel confident enough to trot her as long as she still listens.
> I actually had a very nice ride. Getting my confidence back!





edf said:


> Lunging is going very well. Working on voice commands- she walks on nicely, but we have to work on woahing. She does ok, but could be better.
> I keep her going and make her work even with them looking at her.
> Things are going rather well.


I am SO SO SO EXCITED to hear that things are going well for you guys! I think the more your confidence grows, the better both of you are going to do. Super proud and I'd love to see some more pictures!


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

So, the past week I have been lunging Zoe. Sat was my lesson, and this morning my fiance watched me ride.

Overall, things are going pretty good. With lunging, she gets the walk on cue pretty good. I can get her to trot better, and she is getting better at the woahs. She doesn't stop perfectly all the time, but she stops. I can't always get her to go from a trot to a walk the best- she did it once, but other times she just stops, so I have t work on that some.

I did use the lunge whip more- but it's not going as good. I try keeping the rope wrapped up and just smack the long handle on the ground- sometimes it works, but not all the time. I unwind it to try to be able to crack it- I don't have the best control over it, and because of that, it is not the most efficient tool right now. I am not against hitting Zoe with the lunge whip, but only if I intend to- it just felt very uncontrolable, and therefore wasn't giving the best signals. Good news is she does react to the dressage whip, but not if I let her out very far. But I can get her trotting in decent sized circles with it.

I did go out and picked up an in-hand whip. Its much longer than the dressage whip, but not as long as the lunge whip. Playing with it at the store- it was much more controllable. So, next time I lunge her, I will give that a try. Perhaps once I use that fr a bit, I can then upgrade to the lunge whip if need be. Right now, I am mainly working on transistions and woahs at the walk mostly, and some trotting. No need to go any faster yet.

As for the ride today: I thought it was going to be bad just by how it started off. BO forgot to keep Zoe in, so I had to get her from the field. 9 times out of 10, she is good with catching. Worst case, she is good for one run away. Well, today she just didn't want to come out- she walked away, would let me get close as to where i just miss getting the lead rope around her neck, and trots away. She looked beautiful trotting away at least! So, I finally get her and she is just lagging- doesn't want to leave her pals.

I start currying her- and she did the kick thing again after so long of not doing it. Really? I correct her right away by hitting her shoulder, and she doesn't do it again. She is much more jittery on the cross ties, but I talk to her and tack her up. Here Ia m thinking she is going to be a handful when riding.

I get on, and all her horse friends run up to the fence... Great.

But you know what? Turned out to be a great ride. She didn't pull to the fence the horses where at, the most she would do is slow down, but I just kick her and get her going. We do some nice trotting and circles and she is responsive. But no lifting her head and pulling away. No kicking while under the saddle.

Now, I feel we can really work together more when riding.


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

So, I have a new nickname for my horse: Hoe-bag. or if you like rhyming names- Zoe the hoe.


She was in heat. And she just loves the boys. They always catch her attention, but in heat, she is a little more focused on them.

My ride was pretty good. However, she did put up a fuss at times with not wanting to turn away from the pasture the 2 geldings were. I stuck with it and eventually got her to turn most of the times. The times I didn't, I had to stop her, then turn her- may have not been the bet in terms of correcting, but I felt it was already lost at that point. So, i'd stop, make sure I was giving clear instruction, and walk on and turn in the desired direction. It worked. If I bring my shoulder slapper, I never have to use it. The one time I don't, I need it...

But anyways, I did lower my stirrups, just one whole. I measured them to my ankle and seemed right. I felt more comfortable riding, and the trot felt easier. I also got a pair of half chaps.

But for the most part, the ride went well. She listened most of the time, but I realized as I rode I wasn't as focused as other times I was riding, so I bet that played a part. Once I felt like i was like 'ehhh... do I want to ride more?' I did one more lap around the ring doing serpintines, then cool walked- she actually did some nice walking on a long reign.


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## StephaniHren (Jan 7, 2016)

edf said:


> So, I have a new nickname for my horse: Hoe-bag. or if you like rhyming names- Zoe the hoe. She was in heat. And she just loves the boys.


HA. That's always the worst! The mare I lease is typically pretty sound of mind even when she's in heat, but she does tend to have a couple days or so where she's pretty distracted. If she gives me any trouble I usual hop off, run her ragged on the lunge line, and then hop back on. Gives her a chance to remember that she needs to be working and she usually sorts herself out pretty quickly.



edf said:


> My ride was pretty good.


It's good to hear that you and Zoe are at the point where you're having good rides even when you're having a disagreement with her. I actually just bought a new horse and we had a couple of really good first days followed by some bad ones. Sometimes it's hard to remember that training takes time. I had to take some time to remind myself that a good sense of humor and a positive attitude are really important whenever you're working with horses. Sounds like you've got that down!



edf said:


> But anyways, I did lower my stirrups, just one whole. I measured them to my ankle and seemed right. I felt more comfortable riding, and the trot felt easier.


It always amazes me how big of a difference one hole can make. When I get new leathers I always test out a few different holes. Even after I figure it out, I still tend to flip back and forth a lot. Some days I like more leg, some days I like less. The one that lets you post the best is usually a good choice.

You guys are doing great!


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

So, went out to ride my horse today. She was very fidgety on the cross ties, moved around more than usual. But, saddling her up went good. Last ride, she was pretty grouchy with being girthed- pinned her ears and was nippy. Yes, I placed my elbow right in her nipping path so she would bonk herself when she tried.

I do take it slow girthing her, so today I went extra slow. After upping a hole, i'd pet her and scratch her, then to a hole on the other side and do the same thing. The worst she did was look back.

Walking to the ring- as soon as she saw the boys she was all into them. She does the whole baby face thing with them- clanks her teeth and all.

I warmed her up by hand walking her for a bit, and since I had a very long lead line, I kinda lunged her with that- she did great! Kept going even without a crop. I tell her good girl, and she stops...lol. Oh well, it wasn't really a planned lunge, just kinda threw it in there.

So, I get on, and she is very forward. Every little signal she is like 'We can trot?' So I can't start with a loose reign like I usually like to. I pull her back to a walk each time she trots, but one thing I realize: when she is in a very forward and wants to go mood, it kind of works best if you let her trot it out. Now, when she goes to trot after the slightest leg cue- usually to turn, I bring her back to a walk. But this is why I hand walk her a lot to warm her up. After walking both directions a few times when I am on her, as long as she listens and it is on my terms, we trot. I trot her decent on both directions- usually do 2 laps around the arena an its usually a faster trot, but not too fast, then when I bring her to a walk and work on other things- like circles and serpentines, she is much better. She then has no issues with any slight leg cues meaning to trot. I can actually cue her to walk faster instead of her trying to go right into a trot. When we do trot later in the ride, I can get a nice slower trot out of her.

Now, perhaps when she is very forward, it could be beneficial to lunge her to kinda work it out of her system, however, I don't have any issues with trotting a few times each direction as part of our warm up. When it gets cold, i'll just have to hand walk her long enough that she is nice and warmed up to not hurt her when trotting as part of a warm up.

At first, she was very distracted by the 2 boys in the field. She even started the whole raising her head and pulling towards them speil. I get her to go my way right away, but for the beginning of the ride, I didn't use the whole ring- I jut used where the indoor blocks her view. She knows when we get close to them, but she is still listening to me. As the ride progresses, I let her walk closer and closer to their view, because not using the whole ring because the 2 geldings would be in her sight is NOT acceptable. The first few times she can see them, she is totally rubber necking, but I tap with my inside leg and get her attention back. The first few times, she looks longer than I like, but still listens and turns. Toward the end of the ride, I get her attention back much quicker. I kind of used the 2 geldings as a learning process for me- how to keep her attention on me and how to get her attention back to me quicker. While I hadn't got her attention all the time perfectly, her focus on them didn't make her pull or try to fight to get over to them like she used to- she realized I wasn't allowing it and we did what I wanted to do. So, in my books it was a plus.

I did a lot of trotting in 2 point to build muscle up. And at the end of the ride during cool down, we had the long reign walk going on.

We actually had a spook on the ride. It wasn't major- in fact as soon as I realized she was spooking it was over. It was just a quick jump t the inside and forward, but I didn't really notice my weight shifting too much to the opposite side. I did notice the spook caused me to pull on the reigns a little  but thankfully I ride with a bit-less bridle. While it wasn't a hard yank and as soon as the reigns were tight, I loosened them- its times like this that would make me HATE using a bit. I know I would have clanked her mouth if I had a bit. However, I am not sure what I should have done or could have done to prevent that since the spook was very fast and as soon as I knew she was spooking, it was over, then we just went back to what we were doing as if nothing happened. I am sure the little jump forward caused me to be thrown backward a little, hence the reigns going really tight. I felt bad for my horse, but she shown no signs of being hurt over it.

So, I am really feeling better about Zoe and myself with her. I am so amazed at how easy it is to use leg signals to get her to respond. Turning is so much better and transitions are going. I know I need to work on trotting in circles and turning in circles better, but its coming along. I usually work on serpentines at the trot- get her to do a little curving one way then the other is a small step in controlling her in a trot but easier than a circle ( part of my circles are decent, but the rest turns out to be a bigger circle than expected. I have to build up my leg muscles...lol)

Also, I now have the money to buy my own saddle! Will eventually get a saddle fitter out to find the perfect saddle for Zoe and I. We did a basic saddle fit test with the one we use now, and fits good. But now that I will be riding her a lot more, I definitely want a saddle fitter out.


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## StephaniHren (Jan 7, 2016)

edf said:


> I tell her good girl, and she stops...lol.


Watch that this doesn't become a habit, it's an annoying one to break. 



edf;9475034As the ride progresses said:


> You guys have come so far already! The more you ride her, the more she'll learn that her focus needs to stay on you, not on what's happening outside the arena. Consistency is key and it sounds like you're making great progress.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

> Watch that this doesn't become a habit, it's an annoying one to break.


Yeah, she kind of does that already sadly. I get on her when she stops instead of just keeping going, but it proves a little challenging. But I lunged her yesterday and had a little breakthrough. She wasn't focusing on what I wanted her to do. One way she would walk while unging good, the other way- she'd stop and look at something. I did a lot of asking...no luck. Nagging her to go can't be good. In some situations, she may be confused on what I am asking her- but when she is starting off in the distance- she isn't listening.... brat...LOL. So, I gently touch her rump with the inhand whip. No cracking, no hitting, literally just place it on her rump- bam, she walks. I good girl her, and she stops... for only a split second because this time when I flick the whip on the ground and tell her to walk- she does. I think my voice is soothing and goes down when I say good girl so she may be thinking its a cue to slow down... or she is using it as an excuse to stop. When riding, she tries to do it, but applying a little leg pressure keeps her going. Maybe I have to add that itty bit of 'pressure' when lunging so she learns good girl means she is doing things right and not to stop.

But then I want to trot her, and she won't go. I do the same with the crop- and get her to go. Before, on good days, I could get her to trot, but it was always a struggle, but one touch of the crop and she knew I meant business.

I am definatly learning with Zoe. WIll have to work on breaking the stopping at good girl, but I feel I communicated with her better yesterday at lunging and will progress from there.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I a!m quite proud of you!!! Crops are not instuments of torture. To teach an animal anything, the behavior must be achieved. Good job!!

You do not need to say good girl, but just release the pressure, relax your arms, and/or smile, which causes you to relax, which is reward for the horse!!


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## StephaniHren (Jan 7, 2016)

greentree said:


> You do not need to say good girl, but just release the pressure, relax your arms, and/or smile, which causes you to relax, which is reward for the horse!!


Agree with this. Nine times out of ten, I don't verbally say anything to let my horse know he's done well. He knows because I release the pressure and allow him to move onto the next task at hand. The one out of ten times that I do verbally praise, it's when he's made a big effort or has figured something big out, and even then it's just one short, simple, "Good" along with that release of pressure.


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

> I a!m quite proud of you!!! Crops are not instuments of torture. To teach an animal anything, the behavior must be achieved. Good job!!
> 
> You do not need to say good girl, but just release the pressure, relax your arms, and/or smile, which causes you to relax, which is reward for the horse!!


Yeah, I kinda realized yesterday working with her that tapping her with the crop was needed. It was one of 2 things: 1- she wasn't listening, and nagging wasn't going to work. I was reading other's posts of ask, tell, then demand. I do tend to over ask. So, I have to demand it when she isn't paying attention. or 2: she didn't understand- ths may be more with getting her to trot, so if my asking was confusing and can't get her to trot with verbally telling her to and with my body language, the crop can be used as an extension of my body. I say Trot, then tapped her with the whip, my goal being that she will associate the trot verbal with needing to move forward.

I see what you and Stephenie with the good girl speil. I am just proud of her when She does what I ask ( and proud of myself when I ask her right). I'll save the oogling and good girling once I woah her, when working I will just release the pressure- thi sway, no confusion. The time I did touch her to get her to trot, sh ehad a moment of 'WTH?' look to her, bu tas soon as she moved forward, I broght he whip down and back, and she immediately just went to work and calmed down. The ony thing with whips and Zoe I don't like is I am never too sure how she will react to them. When riding, I used the shoulder slapper on her on 2 different times. One time, she was loosing focus and I used one and it brought her attention back. the other time she kept slowing to a walk when trotting due to her friend being right there by the fence- that time, she kinda jumped and spun fast. Nothing major. But I honestly think her reation was because, looking back, I think I demanded to quickly with the crop, should have just used more leg.

One thing I am really liking about Zoe is she moves on when I seem to make a mistake- provided that I learn from it. She seems to have a way to tell me some how if I am coming about something the wrong way, and I quickly put myself in check, I myself refocus on what I am asking her and ask her better, and she does it.

I can hardly believe how frustrated I was with her about 8 months ago! I am pretty sure I mentioned this here before but in the beginning, I wasn't sure how me and Zoe would work out. Which was a shame because I think she was adopted out, then 3 months later returned to the rescue ( how many horses named Zoe do you come across at the same rescue?) Now, I can't think of anything major that I just can't stand with her. Yes, she is a bit jerky with picking her feet out, but she has come a long way.

OH- I even did some riding around the farm. I did have someone hold the lead line just incase she ran/ ran to the boys, but she never did! She didn't even try to go for grass, unless we stopped, but even then, when she realized I wasn't going to allow her to eat, she didn't pull. My goal is next spring to get her on the trails ( with other riders of course). She did trails at the trainers, but I want to make sure I have good control over her first, and we are taking those steps.

I do know crossing the stream will be a little challenge, but I am working on walking her through water when the ring is wet ( some water collects on one section) So, that will be something that will need to be worked on, but I am rather excited to try it.


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## StephaniHren (Jan 7, 2016)

edf said:


> One thing I am really liking about Zoe is she moves on when I seem to make a mistake- provided that I learn from it.


A horse that forgives and forgets when you make a mistake is invaluable. 



edf said:


> I can hardly believe how frustrated I was with her about 8 months ago!


I know, right! You sound so much happier with her, it's wonderful. It's actually really inspiring, because I bought my horse about a month or so ago and we're kind of going through the frustrating stage right now, so I have to keep reminding myself that the more time I put into him, the more he's going to improve. He's not great right now, but he will be someday!



edf said:


> OH- I even did some riding around the farm. ... My goal is next spring to get her on the trails ( with other riders of course).


That sounds like a fantastic goal to aim for, and totally doable. Riding gets ten times better when you've got a horse that you feel safe taking out on the trails with other riders, in my opinion.


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

So....today I had the laziest horse in the world! She was just walking soooo slow, trotting sooo slow... She responded to my aides still. However, today's ride was kinda just a ride to ride the horse (didn't really want to work on anything in specific or anything)

So, we start out on a nice long reign. We get up to on end of the ring- she is staring like crazy out in the field- more so than any other time and she is very VERY hesitant. I look out, and i see a few horses... must be paints- a whole lot of black and white paints! But man, those horses are put together pretty horrible- very box shaped and short necked...

For the first time in FIVE YEARS I am looking out at a bunch of...cows! There is a dairy farm right there.... but while our farm is enclosed and the cows can't get in, I know the field they are in isn't boxed in. I dunno what was going on!

But in like a split second, I was like 'uh-oh, how is Zoe going to react to cows?' I have no clue if she seen cows before. I noticed her 2 boyfriends are at the end of their field staring as well. I am like, oh crap! But I quickly remember: don't focus on them and don't let the horse stop. If she stops and stares, she could freak herself out. So I keep her walking, and I tell myself, at least the cows arent running... then they take off.... jumping and popcorning all over the place! Those cows sure are enjoying themselves! ( they have a paddock of their own, the cows are let outside so its not like some videos where cows are outside in grass for the first time in years... but they sure are acting like they never seen grass...lol)

Great. So, I kinda feel things could go both ways with Zoe, but I never let her totally focus on them- every time she keeps looking at them, I jiggle the inside reign and tap my inside leg. We eventually get to the other side of the ring-though she is always looking back at the cows.

So I debate going in the indoor. But that has 2 strikes. 1- I don't want to have to limit my riding based on cows/something she don't like. I don't want Zoe to not have to deal with cows because we pass their pasture on the trails. 2- you'd still see the cows in the indoor because the back doors are open.

So I did what I kinda do when she wants to pull to her 2 boyfriends, but in reverse. Instead of letting go closer to seeing her 2 men gradually until its not a big deal when she has to work in their view, I am making her start out with circles and figure 8's on the other side of the ring, but slowly making her walk closer to the cow end of the ring. Mind you, the cows are pretty far away. I can tell Zoe doesn't really want to do it and she does try to make the turn sooner or turn the opposite way. I always make her walk out just a little more than she wants, then turn. She isn't aloud to turn the other way to evade them though. Eventually she is walking around the whole ring. However, she is always looking out at them. I keep dong the rign and leg speil, I get her focus back, but if we are working at the fence on the cow side of the ring, its constant.

But I kept working her. I did only use 3/4ths of the ring because I found if we cut the furthest out, she isn't constantly trying to be a looky-loo. I see it as a compromise- I can get her to walk to the fence, she is listening to me and trusting my judgement even though she doesn't want to, but since I am not really working on anything specific, as long as she still heads out that way, its fine to not go right to the fence ( mind you, I am turning her sooner, not her deciding to turn- I still made the decisions). While she still peeked at them, she isn't as worried, and we continue our work, which is just trotting and doing serpentines- easy stuff. She calmed down a lot, but she wasn't really freaking out like jigging or trying to bolt, but I think in the beginning, she could have. She had stopped a few times, but I kept her going. 

But the 3 horses- Zoe, Duke and Ladie ( her 2 boyfriends) and myself had a moment of looking at the cows and going WTH? LOL... I thought it was a herd of deformed paint horses at first... OMG


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

Had a great time with Zoe at the barn. I am getting her to lunge great- get her to pick up a trot, slow to a walk, and woah much better. At times, she wanted to stop when I'd slow her to a walk, but I managed to keep her going. I only had to touch the crop to her a few times in the beginning, but afterwards, she responded to me by saying trot and slapping the whip on the ground. The next step is getting her to associate trot to trot without the aid of the whip. But to be fair, I am reading up on body language and all so I can tell her correctly without a crop. However, the way I feel, slow and steady. Right now I am happy with the progression she makes with the use of the lung whip. I may never get to the point I don't have to use it, but it would be cool to be able to get her to move on with just body language and vocals. Small steps tho. I actually worked on transistions on the lunge, lots of trotting, back to walks, and back to trots. I do want to be able to exercise her bit with lunging since my BF isn't always going to be able to be there to ride all the time. But right now, lunging is more of an exercise for both of us- me being able to give correct commands and her learning to respond. When it gets to the exercise time, I will be looking into other things so I am not just over-lunging her.


AND I even got her to walk across the bridge! Basicaly, its just wooden planks assempled to get the horse used to walking over something. We tried before- never wanted to do it. I go the rto do it today tho. Yes, I had to use treats. First, she kept walking around it. Then, I got her to stand with her 2 front feet on the bridge, and I gave her a treat. She then backed off of it. That was ok, because my goal was just to get her to step up on it. Whatever happened next was up to her. Next time, I lined her up nicely, used a treat, and got her to stand all the way on the bridge!! Gave her a treat and told her good girl. This time, since it would be just as easy to walk over it instead of backing up off it, I just walked on and she walked across the bridge- lifting her feet high-looked funny- but she walked over it! She was rewarded with hand grazing. I suspect I will still have to use treats for a bit. Coaxing with a treat helped for I would never be able to pull her on..lol. And it gave her some encouragement. The first few attempts I didn't use a treat, and you could tell she wanted to walk on, but was leery of the bridge- she'd lift a foot, move it forward, but then retreat it back, and then walk around the bridge. 

So proud of my horse today!


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

Soooo.. to update...

Zoe actually picked up her back legs for me when picking them out. She lifts them real high still, but the fact that she lifted them up- i'll take it.

So, while taking her to the ring- I noticed she was acting weird- more flighty than usual. She even ran through the gate ( I was using a longer lead line and there was space between use, so she didn't run into me- she actually stopped well before my space, but she was fidgety.) I see my b/f walking up- that shouldn't have done it.... She keeps looking up like mad crazy.

I can officially say that yes, I have been totally snuck up on by a freakin' hot air balloon. It was pretty close. I knew it wasn't landing because there wasn't room, but I saw the people. Dude, I don't know how I didn't see this thing!

So, not only is there a big scary balloon in the sky, but that scarey woosh sound compete with fire. Great. SO, Zoe is getting a little freaked out. She still listens, just not as good. Well, I did buy the longer lead line to be able to lung her at a walk, so that's what I do. It was hard getting her to start with her being so focused on the dang balloon, but I get her going. Naturally, she starts at a trot, but hey, I'll take whatever go she gives. I do get her walking, but she kepts turning her head to look. I don't blame her. Hot air balloons fly over the barn a lot, but never that close. Everytime she noses out, I jiggle the line an dget her attention back. She did stop at times, most of the time I get her going right again. One time she didnt and she was staring at the balloon. Touching the crop to her didn't work, and her standing still allowing herself to get scared wasn't an option. So I hit her with it and bam, she walks on.

It wasn't windy, so it takes a bit for the balloon to fly away, but I just keep lunging her until its well out of sight and the sound dies down. Then I get on. She is still nervous, so I hum to her. I do get her to calm down, and she is listening, its just every little thing she is s leary about- even things she wasn't leary of before. She mini-spooked at the mounting block, the lead line hanging on the fence ( tho, this new oneis brightly colored so perhaps the colors just stood out more), barrels on the outside of th ering, and my b/f who is sitting on the same bench he always is. She shies away from one corner of the ring that was the closest to the balloon when it was there.

However, nothing major happens. She stops walking like a giraffe so I trot her, and actually get her to trot slower. We did get there later than usual and was loosing light, so it was a shorter ride. It was also a bit easier since my goals were now just to keep her calm ( tho, she wasn't blowing up like crazy) and keep working despite her being an extreme looky lou. I just didn't want to push it. I don't want to make excuses to not work her, but I also like to play it on the safe side. I did trot her, but only once she calmed down some. We did serpentines and I attempted some lateral work, but I suck at it. Even though she was on edge and I may not have asked anything hard, she had to work through being a bit nervous because of the balloon. 

However, I was most proud of getting her to lung while the balloon was there. Yes, she did glance up at it, but how bad is that? I mean, I don't want her to not look at it- heck, I want her to see it; I want her to see the fire go and hear the noise and I want her to remember that while it may have been scary, it didn't hurt her, but I do want her to continue to do what I ask of her. She may not have listened flawlessly, she may have needed a whack with the crop, but for the most part, she listened. She responded better to me and my commands than when I was lunging her in the indoor and the race horses were being exercised a bit ago.

While I wouldn't have chosen to work her through a hot air balloon flying close, it gave me the opportunity to really step up to be her leader. She could have freaked out, inside I was like 'oh crap! I wish my BO was here to coach!' at first, but I quickly realized I didn't need her coaching. I knew what to do.

I guess you can say that lunging not only taught my horse something, but it taught me something as well.


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## StephaniHren (Jan 7, 2016)

edf said:


> She did stop at times, most of the time I get her going right again. One time she didnt and she was staring at the balloon. Touching the crop to her didn't work, and her standing still allowing herself to get scared wasn't an option. So I hit her with it and bam, she walks on.


Nice job! Sounds like you did awesome at keeping her focused on you and staying assertive whenever she got distracted. You guys have come a long way since you started. 

Are you lunging her walk/trot/canter, or walk/trot only?


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

Right now I am just doing walk trot, for lunging and riding.

I, myself, am not the best at sitting the canter. On Magic, I was just starting to get the feel and balance f his canter ( his was a strange one tho)

We did see her canter when we looked at her- she has a nice one, but she isn't the best t get going- was told you just have to keep kicking her. But my problem is: I have to work on the sitting trot, get better at that, then I'll be able to ask for the center better. I do work on it some, just have to work on it more. With Magic, he knew neck reigning, to sitting the trot and holding to the saddle with one hand steering was still easy. With Zoe, I can only just steer with the outside reign to keep her from cutting into the center of the ring. Its not hard, but just different.

I do want to get her to canter on the lung line. Its been a while now-almost 1 year- since she has been asked to canter. I know horses have to have balance and everything at the canter ( well, at any gait lol). Are there some exercises that can help achieve this? Yes, cantering her is one...lol. I just never went that fast on a lung line. I know she is going to need a good amount of room on the lung line, and to not let the lung line drop, but are there other precautions I need to be aware of? I will watch more videos and read up on it of course. But I feel I am to the point where I can start lunging her at the canter.


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## StephaniHren (Jan 7, 2016)

edf said:


> I do want to get her to canter on the lung line.


I definitely think that it's time you start cantering her on the lunge line. She'll need a good amount of room (it's easier to balance in a bigger circle) and the biggest thing to remember is if she feels off balance, the best way to correct is to bring her down to the trot, reorganize her there, and then push her back into the canter. Once she's consistently balanced at the canter, you could do some circle in, circle out (where you slowly reduce the size of the circle so she spirals in, then lengthen it so she spirals out).

I think you're over thinking this one a bit. :wink:

Riding wise it sounds like the part you're worried about is the transition to the canter (totally fair, I'm still nervous about that on my green horse sometimes), so I'd start adding a lot of canter transitions into your lunging. Give her a chance to practice and to make sure that she's really responsive to the verbal canter cue, that way when you start cantering under saddle she knows exactly what she's supposed to do when you gave that same cue from on top of her.

If you're worried about cantering on Zoe, you should consider taking a couple of lessons on a schoolmaster to get your confidence up! It sounds like you guys are doing really well and at some point in the near future I'd start adding in a bit of cantering to your riding.


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

I'd rather over think than underthink...LOL. What info I gathered today via videos is I am not sure if I can pick out a balanced canter. I know the correct lead is the inside front goes down last, bu tto tell if she is balanced or hollowing her back... not so sure on. I just don't want to incourage her to do it wrong to learn bad habits and to work her wrong. However, for the first session, I am not going to ask her to canter long, so its not like there is going to be a ton of oppertunity for her to do it wrong.

My other concern, even though she is good at slowing down, is she will get super excited at the canter and just keep going. But then again, I always feared she'd freak out over the use of a crop. In the beginning, she was a little reactive, but nothing major. In the end its just something I am going to have to do and see. If she doesn't stop right away, i'll make sure she don't trip on th elung line as I shorten it- that will eventually slow her down ( while I do voice commands and all as well)

As far as riding, I have always been one of those people that things just have to be right in order for me to canter. I guess I am not much of a daredevil...LOL.I think Zoe would be much easier to keep going than the other lesson horse I rode, and I know without encouragement, she would get to one side of the arena and stop. It's not really cantering itself that I am not confident in ( as in the speed), its knowing if I am on the right lead and worrying if I don't have a good seat.

There are some things I do want to work on first, and lunging her at the canter will be a step.

Thanks for your advise. I was doing a lot of thinkng outloud here...LOL.


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

So, my attempt to get Zoe to canter on the lunge line was not sucsessful. 

Reasons why:

1-I couldn't find my lunge whip. All I had was my in hand crop ( its like a mini lunge whip, bigger than the dressage crop) It works well for what I been asking of her, but once I let her out to a really big circle, it's not as effective.

2- this was the first time we worked big circles. Now, when I trott her, she has a decent sized circle, but I also walk a little with her. What I noticed is she noses out alot more in a bigger circle, I do jiggle the line and all still, but it just seems more pronounced. I will need to work at bigger circles and keeping her attention better. However, she did pick up her pace even with the in hand crop, but I had to step in a bit and nag. It was like when I was trying to lunge with my dressage crop- you could get it to work, but it was just unnecessarily awkward.

3-there was some form of lack of communication. Saying what I am about to say could get you all saying 'horses aren't people' or you are reading too much into it, and I'll agree with it 50%. The other 50% that won't agree is because I know my horse. Remember when I had issues turning her? Zoe behaved in such a way that it wasn't until I listened to her that I wasn't doing something right and came at it a different approach... It felt like that. While yes I need to be firm, I think I was a bit overbearing on her. Who likes to get yelled at to do something but you aren't sure of what is being asked? Now, she did break into a canter for a few strides, but it wasn't pretty. She did try to run away on the lunge line a few times. She even threatened to rear. Suddenly, it just felt like we weren't being a team. SO, I listened to her, took th epressure off. She was still unsure, and did not want to go the way I wanted her to go. But I pull her in, tell her easy, give her a few seconds and readjust the line and all, then make her go the way I wanted.

I did get some nice fast trotting, but I wanted to really end on a good note with Zoe. So, all I did the rest of the time was the basics. Her edge came down and she went back to being her normal self.

So here is my plan of action- gonna get her listening and going good at the trot in very big circles. I am also going to work with the lunge whip more so I get used to it. I don't think it will take long, but once I get better with that an dcommunicating to her from more of a distance, I'll try again. She may well just react in the beginning a bit- she reacted a bit to using a crop- but she then got the point. But I'll feel more confident in adding another step in before the canter.

But I will end on a list of things she did very great on:

I do have a long lead line that I can use to do a warm up walk lunge on. I got her going and kept her going- without any crop! I did twirl the end at times, but I got her to keep going with using my hand. See, eventually, i'd like to do the basic lunging without a crop ( basicaly, as in just to say I can do it...lol)- like how the lesson horses do with just swinging the end of the line.

I have been watching come Clinton Anderson videos for some assistance ( I don't fully follow everything he says- but it gve me some ideas for Zoe) I actually got her to start lunging by pointing to the direction I wanted her to go! Wow, that felt amazing! It was only with one side tho, but hey, I'll take it!

I got her to trot without having to tap her with the crop. She is not quite just needing voice commands, but I have laid off with having to tap her.


AND.... drum roll please......

it is sooooooo much easier to get her feet- all of them, but especially her back feet! She still lifts high and moves them, but as soon as I grab them, she is relaxing- before she would still move them while I had them for a bit. SHe also is more patient as I pick them out.

Next step, with will happen soon- hopefully he isn't as skitish with the dreaded blanket.


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

I got Zoe to canter on the lunge line! It wasn't the best... I used another lunge whip that I like better than mine- Zoe reacts to it better.

The down side tho, is I don't think she is officially afraid of it, but wasn't quite sure of what I was asking. I don't want my horse to do something because she is afraid- however, when I first started using the dressage crop and in hand whip, she kind of reacted the same at first, then calmed down with it (plus, I am sure I got better at using it). So, the very first canter, she kinda did what I call a balk-freak. No bolting or rearing, but did some fancy foot work. I get her to walk again, then work her up to a trot. Second canter- she canters, but head high and not very pretty, and ended with her trotting away from me. I ask for a woah and she stops tho. I change direction. I figured- she cantered, she did what I asked. I don't want to keep drilling her at first, so I will ask one more time the other direction. So, I ask for a canter at first, she just trots fast. Next time around- since I am only asking on one side of the ring so I am not always nagging her- she canters. While it's not perfect- it is a lot better. I don't know if she was onthe correct lead or not- but right now, just focusing on getting a canter out of her. My goal is only to get her going for little bit- she pretty much can stop when she decides since once she picks it up, I release all pressure. She cantered for about 5-6 steps and I just tell her good girl- while I know it isn't the best thing to do since she stops at the good girl- this time she stops and turned into me, as if saying 'did I do it right?' My goals right now are for her to just pick up the canter. I want her to know what I am asking for- and me to know how to ask for it nicely- then I'll work on keeping her going, or at least keep moving. I like to take small steps when working on something new. I am sure some people here would ave been much farther a long with Zoe, but I believe slow and steady wins the race. Since she did what I asked- we worked on basics and other things like walking and trotting over poles- I don't want to do something new for too much- add it in as part of the work, when it is achieved, move on to something else. Plus I like ending on a good note.

I am watching videos and reading up on using body langauge as well so I can be as fair as I can with Zoe. But it was a good little session today.


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

P.S. She doesn't freak out with the blanket. I got an occasional leg lift once in a blue moon, but that's it. The barn hand who put it on the first time this season said she kicked once, but that was it (He was warned)


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

Went and worked with Zoe for a little.

This time with lunging, worked more on precision. AT first, man, she didn't want to listen, just wanted to zoom around on the lunge line. Luckily, for her, zooming is trotting. Had troubles getting her to stop. Would shorten the line, still go. Even put the crop out in front, wouldn't stop. So, I jiggled the line up and down- she threw her head up, but eventually walked. I went from walking to trotting, to walking. On the one side, at first, was always harder to get her to walk from a trot, but I would eventually get her to do it. It is also her bad side. She goes from a trot to a walk much better- not perfect- but I switch sides, and she does better on the other side. Then, I do her bad side again- and she is better with transitioning down to a walk, but is now harder to get to trot. But mind you, I am also trying to not have to touch her with the crop anymore. I had to tap for her bad side.

At first- I'd have to tap her. Now, its more of just raising the crop. I am using voice commands as well. My plan is once she trots good with the voice command and raising the whip- will try just voice. Not quite there yet, but I got her to go from a trot to walk without stopping. But we end on a good note. I like to do something until she does it- even if its not perfect, and then do it one more time. Do it both sides, then move to something else.


Next thing I worked on was yielding her hind quarters. She actually did much better than I thought! Naturally, she has a bad side, took a bit more coaxing to get that back leg to step across the other in front and not behind. But she understood quickly. We actually didn't have to work on it as much as I thought. Since it was our first time doing the exercise, didn't expect much nor wanted her to do it several times. Next time, I will aim for 3/4ths of a circle since this time it was just until I saw that back leg cross right.

Also, we had puddles in the arena, so we worked on walking through them. I think I figured out the whole deal with her and puddles: She'll walk through them, but wants me to walk through them too....  I guess she doesn't want to be the only one to get her feet wet.


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

So finally went out to work with Zoe again. If anyone reading this missed my other thread, I took a spill of Zoe when she spooked. I am fine, just had a sore back. I am much better- however, lifting my leg up really high to get over a baby gate hurt like heck, so I don't know if I will be riding soon. I have a lesson this sat and hope I am better by then.

But I took Zoe to the outdoor and lunged. This time, no crop though, just the end of the lunge line. She actually responded rather well. May not have been perfect, but she picked it up. I got her trotting with swinging the lunge line. I had to concentrate on my body position and language more, but that is good- I need to pick up my slack now that my horse knows the concept of lunging.

In the very beginning, when I led her into the ring and turned around to close the gate, she did something funky tho. She turned her head away- almost like she was doing a carrot stretch but didn't really reach all the way back and started shaking her head. AT first I thought she wanted to pull the lead line out of my hands and run off- she was doing some fancy foot work- but she never pulled-just took the slack out of the line and never ran. My fiancee said ' Stop being a poo-head Zoe' and bam, she was done with whatever she was doing or thinking of doing.

There is a big toy ball ( for horses) that the one boarder has int he field, and before it was by the walkway to the arenas and she spooked at that, but now it was back by the ring. Perhaps she saw that off in the distance... the fancy foot work kinda looked like she was spooking a little bit... or maybe she was just being a poo-head. Once she was done, it was over. She walked nicely and was calm and her usual self.

I was able to pick her hoofs this time. It hurt before and I couldn't really bend down good and definitely couldn't move in the position if I needed to get out of the way. She is doing much better with her blanket, not fussing when it gets put on or taken off.

It was nice seeing her today and being able to do something with her.


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

Well, it has been a while since I updated this. I have 2 major things to update with.

1- Zoe.

Things have been going great. I haven't ridden her as much since I have to muck her stall and treat her hoofs and just a bunch of other crap, but even when I did start riding more, she may have been a little balky, but never bad. Today was a great lesson- we practiced loading her on th erailer since we got her. We weren't expecting her to get on- but she did! She stopped and pooped a lot, but I would always get her to take a few steps, then rest. She was half way up the ramp, and started checking out the floor and everything. She didn't want to go on, you could tell. But I did get her on with the good ol bribe with some grain. We had her stay on for about a minute, then backer her off. She did great- you could tell she was nervous, but she took it nice and slow. I am very proud of her. AND very proud of Steve, my fiance who is scared of horses, but Zoe likes him. He stood at the back of the trailor, mainly for when she came off if she went at an angle and would step off, he was to help push her if needed. But she backed off nicely.

2- th elessons at the other barn.

I had another post going about thinking if I wanted to change barns. I am still not sure and since the whole thrush speil, I dont want to fight a nervous horse to work with her feet ( thrush is getting much better) But the lessons at the other barn are great. Been cantering, and well, to my shock, even been jumping! The horse I ride is an appy, and is lazy, but is a good horse to learn to canter and jump on. My goals with jumping is just to learn another aspect of riding. We have the jumps just high enough that the horse takes it seriously. I don't have any desire to really get to any higher of jumps. But I am learning to fine tune things, and I take what I learn and apply it to riding Zoe.


Oh and on a final note- Zoe does a little trick- and I got to show my BO it. Its really simple, may not even be a trick, but when I take her off the cross ties- I have a lead line draped over her neck. But I can lead her back to her field without using the lead line ( except if she goes for grass, I have to guide her a bit) But she follows me and walks with me going to the field. I dunno, I think its the coolest thing ever. LOL.


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

So, we finally did it- we went out on the trails! We only did the very short one, but thats ok. I also had my fiancee walking with her with a lead line on. Zoe on;y seemed scared once when we were passing a lady and her small dog. The dog was quiet and leashed, but I moved Zoe to the other side of the road and had another horse walk between her and the dog. She calmed down. As soon as we got on the driveway- she was so calm. We opted to start out with walking up the road- its a quiet road because the other way- while it starts right on the trail- its a little tricky for having some one lead the horse, so for my man's sake, we made it easy on him.

There were some hens out, and that ended up causing some issues for the other 2 horses, but not Zoe. She saw them- as well as a deer jumping out- and didn't even flinch. We did end up turning around and heading back since the other mare turned around and balked, then the instructors horse kinda did ( he likes to play follow the leader) Zoe kinda just looked at them like they were idiots LOL.

But Zoe didn't pull at all, didn't feel like she wanted to take off in a big open space. She did want to stick with the other mare, but I was always able to slow her down if needed. I think Zoe liked it, she was looking around and staying calm. I had fun!!


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## edf (Dec 20, 2013)

So, another milestone was reached, however, its a little on the bummer side. Zoe got scratches... on her dreaded back left hoof- you know, the one she always seems miss prissy about. When I first got her, I was always like please dont get scratches.... and naturally, she has one white hoof- can you guess which one? back left.

I have been treating for a few days, and I just realized today- how well she is taking to it. There is no swelling or heat, but I know its sensitive. The worst she ever does is pull her foot away and move away. I hate that I have to bother her with it, but I have to treat it. But it just dawned on me that she isn't kicky at all, and handles it very well. Just made me realize how I have grown as a horse person to gain her trust.

Also, she is getting better with lifting her back feet- the back left is always the worst, especially now that I am treating the scratches, but her back right- she lifted up nicely and held it nicely instead of jerking it a bit first. True, I have a time limit, but its not as short as it used to be.

She even stood nicely as my fiance picked burrs out of her mane and checked her for ticks ( his favorite thing to do for some reason)


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