# Why Shanked Bits are Utterly Evil, etc.



## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Some very good points in there, thanks for sharing!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Yes, very interesting. I like the part about the presignals. I don't ride in a curb, but only because I direct rein all the time. But I appreciate even the very slight presignal heavy rope reins and thick slobber straps will give.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

This goes right along with, would you rather be picked at all the time (snaffle) or get jumped on hard one time and have it be over with (Spade bit). I vastly prefer to get on my horse hard one time and make it a learning experience than to be constantly picking at him and saying, no, no, no, no.......

Get him hard once and give him relief.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Well, if you're using a spade bit, you presumably have an extremely well-trained and finished horse, so you should _never_ have to get on him hard....

The way the old vaqueros rode in their spades, they do a test to see if your hands were light and your horse was broke. It consisted of attaching the reins to a strand of horsehair and the horsehair to the bit. If the horsehair broke, you were not up to standard.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

A spade isn't a curb bit anyway. They are a signal bit. As the bit changes balance and moves in the horses mouth the horse gets the signal that a cue from the body is coming. A spade bit is NEVER used to get after a horse ever. Riding with a spade bit is really its own discipline. It differs as much from the rest of western riding as Spanish riding school dressage differs from polo. 

The people that are really spade bit men can ride a horse in a beautiful frame and do everything a dressage horse can do and never even begin to take the slack out of a rein. There is nothing more beautiful than watching an expert horseman on a horse that is "straight up in the bridle".


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## Toymanator (Jul 31, 2009)

I read this yesterday, and decided not to comment because I felt the thread title was loaded and didn't want to go there. However I think a valuable discussion has stemmed from the article. One of the things we can learn from the article is that a bit is a COMMUNICATION device, not a discipline tool. A bit is your telephone to the horse, what you say and how you say it is all up to you. You can get in a shouting match, or you can talk sensibly. You can talk demeaning and degrading or you can talk uplifting and encouraging. You can blame or you can understand. The type of bit you use does not determine your ability to communicate with your horse anymore then a Smart phone allows a person to speak better than an old rotary phone. I have seen people do incredible things in a snaffle, but in order for a horse to progress, a different communication device is needed. These new devices are used to build on the conversation that has already started, you are only refining the conversation. A spade bit is used to have an incredibly intellectual conversation with a horse, very few horses have been to enough schooling or studied enough to understand the conversation. In the same regard very few riders have been to the proper university to understand how to even begin the discussion. I see too many people getting caught up on the fact that a snaffle is direct pressure and curb bits are leverage. BOTH are a form of pressure to the horse, BOTH can ruin a horses mouth if used improperly. Our time would be better spent understanding information such as was provided in the article. What are you communicating and how are you communicating it, once you learn how to have this make sense to the horse then you can begin having the conversation.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

One thing I've found is that after a broke Western horse has been ridden in a curb for awhile, he will no longer respect the snaffle, and will often brace against it, fighting with mouth gaping open, even while he remains soft and responsive in the curb. The traditional answer is, "Oh, his mouth has been ruined from the harsh bit." But I think it has more to do with him taking offense to the rudeness of cues and lack of finesse that the snaffle provides.


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## SaddleOnline (Oct 20, 2011)

Toymanator said:


> I read this yesterday, and decided not to comment because I felt the thread title was loaded and didn't want to go there. However I think a valuable discussion has stemmed from the article. One of the things we can learn from the article is that a bit is a COMMUNICATION device, not a discipline tool. A bit is your telephone to the horse, what you say and how you say it is all up to you. You can get in a shouting match, or you can talk sensibly. You can talk demeaning and degrading or you can talk uplifting and encouraging. You can blame or you can understand. The type of bit you use does not determine your ability to communicate with your horse anymore then a Smart phone allows a person to speak better than an old rotary phone. I have seen people do incredible things in a snaffle, but in order for a horse to progress, a different communication device is needed. These new devices are used to build on the conversation that has already started, you are only refining the conversation. A spade bit is used to have an incredibly intellectual conversation with a horse, very few horses have been to enough schooling or studied enough to understand the conversation. In the same regard very few riders have been to the proper university to understand how to even begin the discussion. I see too many people getting caught up on the fact that a snaffle is direct pressure and curb bits are leverage. BOTH are a form of pressure to the horse, BOTH can ruin a horses mouth if used improperly. Our time would be better spent understanding information such as was provided in the article. What are you communicating and how are you communicating it, once you learn how to have this make sense to the horse then you can begin having the conversation.


Beautifully put. 

The bit is merely a tool - some are harsher than others, but all can be dangerous in the wrong hands. 

In an ideal world, every rider would have good hands and good seat, and every horse would be trained to be completely responsive to the rider's aids. 

Since, we're not in a perfect world - we have to work to find the most effective compromise.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

bubba13 said:


> One thing I've found is that after a broke Western horse has been ridden in a curb for awhile, he will no longer respect the snaffle, and will often brace against it, fighting with mouth gaping open, even while he remains soft and responsive in the curb. The traditional answer is, "Oh, his mouth has been ruined from the harsh bit." But I think it has more to do with him taking offense to the rudeness of cues and lack of finesse that the snaffle provides.


Oh so not so!

I've gone to a snaffle on my working cow horses when doing two man ranch sorting. The action is quicker and the cues faster than in the larger pens or working cattle out in the open.

I had always schooled in a snaffle to keep the horse light and responsive.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

bubba13 said:


> One thing I've found is that after a broke Western horse has been ridden in a curb for awhile, he will no longer respect the snaffle, and will often brace against it, fighting with mouth gaping open, even while he remains soft and responsive in the curb. The traditional answer is, "Oh, his mouth has been ruined from the harsh bit." But I think it has more to do with him taking offense to the rudeness of cues and lack of finesse that the snaffle provides.


I've also found this to be true.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

bubba13 said:


> One thing I've found is that after a broke Western horse has been ridden in a curb for awhile, he will no longer respect the snaffle, and will often brace against it, fighting with mouth gaping open, even while he remains soft and responsive in the curb. The traditional answer is, "Oh, his mouth has been ruined from the harsh bit." But I think it has more to do with him taking offense to the rudeness of cues and lack of finesse that the snaffle provides.


I experienced this for the majority of the summer with Poseidon. She usually rode in a curb, but for whatever reasom her bit was given to another gelding amd never returned. Holy cow did she misbehave with the snaffle. She ignored any neck reining, wouldn't forward until she was in a trail line, etc. We switched her back because the kids assigned to her were beyond frustrated and she went completely back to normal. I'd never seen it before.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

The only time I ride in a curb is at a show, the rest of the time I train in a snaffle.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> I've also found this to be true.


Yeah I switched Sandie from a pelham back to her snaffle and it was a long transition back. She still has days where she just braces and fights the snaffle, but we're working through it because I can't have a pelham in dressage! :lol:


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## Toymanator (Jul 31, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> A spade isn't a curb bit anyway. They are a signal bit. As the bit changes balance and moves in the horses mouth the horse gets the signal that a cue from the body is coming. A spade bit is NEVER used to get after a horse ever. Riding with a spade bit is really its own discipline. It differs as much from the rest of western riding as Spanish riding school dressage differs from polo.
> 
> The people that are really spade bit men can ride a horse in a beautiful frame and do everything a dressage horse can do and never even begin to take the slack out of a rein. There is nothing more beautiful than watching an expert horseman on a horse that is "straight up in the bridle".


It took me a little while to find this video that came to mind when I read this. If I am correct Pat Pucket was conducting a clinic with Mike Thomas in Arizona when he said this...


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Yeah, all shanked bits are evil - but using a flash to tie your horse's mouth shut and then hauling like hell on a snaffle is A-OK!

6 of one, half a dozen of the other. Bad riders are bad riders.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

bubba13 said:


> One thing I've found is that after a broke Western horse has been ridden in a curb for awhile, he will no longer respect the snaffle, and will often brace against it, fighting with mouth gaping open, even while he remains soft and responsive in the curb. The traditional answer is, "Oh, his mouth has been ruined from the harsh bit." But I think it has more to do with him taking offense to the rudeness of cues and lack of finesse that the snaffle provides.


I found this to be true with my Mustang. Many people on here preach snaffles. My friend used to preach snaffles (now she rides in a bosal) and so I have tried riding my Mustang in a snaffle quite a bit. He just doesn't have the finesse with it and if he wants do dive for grass, he will try to do it in a snaffle. Now you CAN ride him in a snaffle. His mouth isn't very hard. But he does so much better in a curb. He collects better, he rates better, turns better, you name it, he's softer and better in a curb. 

He used to be a rope horse and I don't know if that has anything to do with it other than he was ridden in a curb by his previous owner that roped off of him. So yeah, I know exactly what you are taking about. I really like the finesse of a curb. Snaffles, at least with my Mustang, doesn't give me finesse. I have to work to get him to tuck, work to get him to collect, work to keep him from diving for green grass. :lol:



ponyboy said:


> Yeah, all shanked bits are evil - but using a flash to tie your horse's mouth shut and then hauling like hell on a snaffle is A-OK!
> 
> 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. Bad riders are bad riders.


Yes, I feel the same! I sometimes wonder if all the "snaffle preachers" are english riders. Because they frequently use a flash, running martingale, cavesson, etc to keep the horse's mouth shut and keep the head in the proper position. Maybe if they were lighter handed and used a curb and the horse went off of finesse you wouldn't need such strong rein contact and gadgets? 

That is actually one of my biggest pet peeves on this message board. The snaffle-only people and the tom thumb police. I would rather barely touch the reins and have my horse respond than have to strap their mouth shut and haul on the reins. I know that is a generalization, but that is how I see it. People think curbs are cruel and they have probably never even ridden in one. And heaven forbid, sometimes I even ride in a jointed curb! The cruelty of it all! And yet my horses are soft and responsive and I barely have to use the reins. :lol:

But, yes, you need to be gentle with a curb. I learned to ride in a curb, neck reining, with very little contact with the horse. Now that I am older and wiser and a much better rider, I ride a lot more with two hands and contact. But I spend years barely touching the reins before I graduated to two hands and contact. That's backwards from the english folks, but I sometimes wonder it that wouldn't be a better system for the horse. In other words, basically no contact at all until your hands and body are balanced and trained enough to ride with contact.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Now I don't ride western, just strictly English, but I feel like I have a look in here.

For an English horse showing at nearly any level in nearly any English discipline, contact is required. You get marks taken off otherwise. It can be a contact so light you barely take the slack out of the reins, or (I have personally seen this in competition and DOING WELL) a contact so heavy the rider has almost all their weight in the reins.

In my opinion the lighter contact is much much better because it gives you more room to escalate if the horse is getting rude!! Heavy contact ruins the mouth and you end up having to use stronger and stronger bits.

All that being said, in my jumping lesson yesterday, I'd have loved to have had a pelham on Monty. Double reins. I love pelhams as a training tool for a strong horse. You ride mostly off the snaffle rein and then ONLY IF NEEDED (horse is ignoring a light snaffle aid) you move to the curb rein and engage the shanks/chain.

My instructor and I were working on stopping Monty from running through half halts coming into jumps and then making sure he was listening straight after the jump but to get the soft results I had to use some very strong aids. I felt horrible doing it... Leaning back and HAUL release HAUL release until I got the result I wanted (a downwards transition - that was ALL I wanted!). And he got worse to start off with. I was thinking about telling my coach that Monty was feeling heavier in the hand and then he decided to cooperate. I would much rather not have to engage my strength (and therefore my adrenaline) and the only way to avoid that is to bit up to a pelham or similar, something that can put on an INTENSE halt aid but that also can have a snaffle action.

Of course I am working with a horse that has been ridden poorly in his past and needs a fair amount of re-training. On the flat he is good because the lady I bought him off put a lot of work into him but for some reason it doesn't equate to jumping.

...pelham, or no pelham? In the snaffle, if he's not listening, I get frightened and my fear response is fight. I'm not proud of it but it's the fact of the matter. I'm working to change it and we're getting there. I just have no stopping power if he wants to go. In a kimblewick, HE doesn't respond well, because HE doesn't like it and there's no option other than curb pressure. In a pelham (WITH DOUBLE REINS)... well I'm wondering if it would be almost "too strong" for him but it would be a great confidence boost to know I have that stopping power if I need it.

I am NOT ASKING FOR OPINIONS HERE. Just thinking out loud I guess. I'll probably ask my coach about it next week.


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## TKButtermilk (May 20, 2010)

bubba13 said:


> One thing I've found is that after a broke Western horse has been ridden in a curb for awhile, he will no longer respect the snaffle, and will often brace against it, fighting with mouth gaping open, even while he remains soft and responsive in the curb. The traditional answer is, "Oh, his mouth has been ruined from the harsh bit." But I think it has more to do with him taking offense to the rudeness of cues and lack of finesse that the snaffle provides.



I also don't agree that this is true. I am currently riding a few horses for a woman and 3 are finished reiners who have been shown extensively. Our schedules never matched up for us to meet up before she left on her trip for us to go over whose bridle is whose so rather than make mistakes I've been just using a loose ring snaffle on everyone. They've all been absolute gems, and I know for sure they're all ridden in at least a curb since that's all that's on their bridles. 
A properly trained horse should be able to be ridden in anything in my eyes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

ETA I'm not a pro snaffle crazy, I'm pro whatever works for whichever horse and keep them happy. I just defaulted back to a snaffle because for me it's "safe" and easy. I know how to use it and am comfortable.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

trailhorserider said:


> That is actually one of my biggest pet peeves on this message board. The snaffle-only people and the tom thumb police.


LOL!!!! so true...:rofl:


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Poseidon said:


> *She ignored any neck reining*, wouldn't forward until she was in a trail line, etc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because - Curbs are for neck reining, snaffles are for direct reining. With the broken mouth piece you can pick up and isolate the different quadrants of the horse for a more precise response.

I'm not sure what 'wouldn't forward' means.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

You ca neck rein perfectly well in a snaffle. Every horse I've ever trained has learned to neck rein in a snaffle. The bit in the horses moutyh has little to do with neck reining. Most good riders isolate the different quadrants of the horse with thier legs and seat rather than with the reins and bit. That is how you get precision.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

kevinshorses said:


> You ca neck rein perfectly well in a snaffle. Every horse I've ever trained has learned to neck rein in a snaffle. The bit in the horses moutyh has little to do with neck reining. Most good riders isolate the different quadrants of the horse with thier legs and seat rather than with the reins and bit. That is how you get precision.


CAN - but they will not respond the same.

AQHA changed the rules on some events for a reason Kevin. Curbs are not as easy on the mouth and harder to pinpoint precision than a snaffle.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

It seems to me that you can teach a snaffled horse to ride in a curb, but it's not half as easy to teach a curbed horse to ride in a snaffle.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

MLS- We usually agree but this is the exception. Curb bits are only as hard on the horses mouth as the rider makes them. Rather than argue about how to use your legs while riding I post a video that explains it. MikeThomasHorsemen's Channel - YouTube

Also what rules did the AQHA change?


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I can isolate any part of my horse's mouth/body with a broken curb and get a remarkable degree of finesse with subtle rein cues--something that I cannot do with a snaffle.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Whoa, if a horse was started in a snaffle and finished in a snaffle, then he will go from one to the other with no difficulty. My mare had no problem getting on the bit (snaffle) when we rode english, yet she was also quite at home in a heavy curb and did western pleasure well. She knew what was expected with each bit. If I put a hackamore on she knew I'd be asking for speed.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

trailhorserider said:


> That is actually one of my biggest pet peeves on this message board. The snaffle-only people and the tom thumb police.



Curbs with jointed mouthpieces don't function properly as curbs or as snaffles. It doesn't matter how much pressure you use - they're just not good bits. You really can't combine the effects of a snaffle and a curb in one bit.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Except for the thousands of horses that perform perfectly well at all levels in broken mouth curb bits you're absolutely right.


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

ponyboy said:


> Curbs with jointed mouthpieces don't function properly as curbs or as snaffles. It doesn't matter how much pressure you use - they're just not good bits. You really can't combine the effects of a snaffle and a curb in one bit.


 
It's actually quite possible to get a broken curb that is balanced and can be used for both direct and neck - reining. There is a type of futurity bit that is always being recommended on here as a either a transitioning bit or a finishing bit.


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## DejaVu (Jul 6, 2011)

There have been some excellent points made here.

I guess, different training strategies and different opinions.

Coming from an all around english and western show person, my gelding has no other choice but to be responsive in both a curb and snaffle. Back when I rode strictly english, I realize now, how much contact I had on the mouth. When I added western to the list, and started training neck-reining and one handed cues in the snaffle before we went into a curb, I learned pretty quickly how heavy my thought to be "light" horse was. 

Now that he's come to his own in western, and is responsibly carrying in a curb bit, I have to be careful about pressure in a snaffle. He's gotten used to self-carriage and leg cues with totally slack reins. 

Like what was said in a previous post-I don't feel his mouth has been ruined in a curb. I didn't even go in a curb until he was responsible with loose reins in a snaffle where I could directly correct him if need be. He's been ridden light handed only in a curb. I also made a point of taking lessons on a well trained western horse, to train myself to a curb bit, and the effect it has. So, his mouth hasn't gotten harder or blind to the pressure of a snaffle, and I don't feel like he's ignoring pressure, but he's just come to like the freedom of no contact on his mouth. 
And honestly, I like how he's all leg and seat now. It's a quieter ride.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

ponyboy said:


> Curbs with jointed mouthpieces don't function properly as curbs or as snaffles. It doesn't matter how much pressure you use - they're just not good bits. You really can't combine the effects of a snaffle and a curb in one bit.


They aren't _meant_ to function as snaffles. They're meant to function as....jointed curbs.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Im not a snaffle only person, but a snaffle is sure as heck all I would recommend to someone over the Internet. Most people who ask those questions don't have the skills to use a curb properly. 

I most certainly don't use a flash, a martingale, draw reins, or anything on my mare. A saddle and a barcoo bridle is it. I ride on loose reins and can get a whoah straight away from my seat. We neck rein great. We trail ride, cut cows, and run speed events perfectly in control.

Just so you know stereotyping us 'snaffle only' people doesn't really work 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

But on the flip side of the coin, I can't in good faith recommend a snaffle to the majority of people over the Internet. Most novices don't have the skill required to use a snaffle correctly. If they have a hard-mouthed horse, either from bad training or improper bitting in the past, you're in for a disaster. Far better in my opinion or them to use a curb. They will be able to control the horse, so they will be happier and less likely to sell it for being "crazy" or "dangerous." And in truth they'll likely spare the horse's mouth, too, because they'll be able to get by without constantly hauling on the mouth, so will be more inclined to ride on looser rein and use far less pressure.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

And to add: That's not even getting into the action difference of a snaffle versus a curb in novice hands. The former just bounce-bounce-bounces on the sensitive bars, smashes the tongue, and cranks the edges of the lip back. A curb, at least, distributes pressure over more (and less sensitive) areas and is more forgiving of the slight unintentional motions that inexperienced hands can make.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Missed this, been away at a clinic all weekend! Great fun, campdraft clinic, got to work on a lot of fast work. My fat mare surprised me with how fit she actually is!



> more forgiving of the slight unintentional motions that inexperienced hands can make.


Yet amplifying those unintentional motions.



> Most novices don't have the skill required to use a snaffle correctly.


Then they definitely don't have the skills to use a curb correctly. In terms of mechanics, it's far more simple. Pull left to turn left, right to turn right, and back to stop. Most novices don't have the subtlety to neck rein passably, let alone well. They will plow rein and without any kind of feel. 

I know that riding is completely different in the US than here. It may just be how I see most people riding when they start out around me. They just want the horse to go where they point it, steer, and some semblence of slowing when asked. They generally ride fairly relaxed, with longer reins. If they get stressed, they hang on the mouth.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

bubba13 said:


> But on the flip side of the coin, I can't in good faith recommend a snaffle to the majority of people over the Internet. *Most novices don't have the skill required to use a snaffle correctly. If they have a hard-mouthed horse, either from bad training or improper bitting in the past, you're in for a disaster.* Far better in my opinion or them to use a curb. They will be able to control the horse, so they will be happier and less likely to sell it for being "crazy" or "dangerous." And in truth they'll likely spare the horse's mouth, too, because they'll be able to get by without constantly hauling on the mouth, so will be more inclined to ride on looser rein and use far less pressure.


This is why I so often recommend a simple snaffle setup in conjunction with some good riding lessons. If a rider is having control issues, all physical reasons for the horse's disobedience ruled out, changing the bit one way or the other isn't going to solve the problem. A snaffle bit, because it doesn't multiply forces, is going to be somewhat more forgiving of the bad hands of a still-learning rider. Changing bits won't teach anyone to have better hands; only experience and good instruction can do that. In the meantime, best to outfit the horse and rider in the most simple-to-understand and user-friendly equipment possible. 

I'm all for curb bits, as long as the horse is properly prepared for it, and the rider understands the way that they work and how to ride it. What I'm against is adding any article of tack purely in the name of increasing control or taking the place of proper training. Tack doesn't make good horses. Good riders do.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

bubba13 said:


> But on the flip side of the coin, I can't in good faith recommend a snaffle to the majority of people over the Internet.Most novices don't have the skill required to use a snaffle correctly. If they have a hard-mouthed horse, either from bad training or improper bitting in the past, you're in for a disaster. .


 
And then they use it as an excuse to not learn properly as now they simply don't have to learn.

These are the ones that come to forums like ours and wonder why the horse does this or that...they never learned to ride correctly.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

bubba13 said:


> But on the flip side of the coin, I can't in good faith recommend a snaffle to the majority of people over the Internet. Most novices don't have the skill required to use a snaffle correctly...


???????????????????

If someone can't ride safely with a snaffle, they are on the wrong horse. I have no objection to most bits, including curbs. But if you need a 'stronger bit' to control your horse, you have a training issue - probably for both horse and rider.

I started riding with a skittish mare who was a horrible choice for a new rider. And I rode her bitless, because she didn't like bits. I've had her bolt bitless...but then, I've also tried bits, and she has bolted with them as well - all types tried. Her bolting is a training issue, for her and for me both.

In my twenties, I visited a ranch and used a horse that was "bombproof". I guess a nuke went off that day, because he bolted. The curb bit didn't change anything. Hauling his head around until his nose was at my knee didn't change anything. I turned him by kicking his shoulder with my boot - just in time to avoid a barbed wire fence. He ran himself to exhaustion - with a curb bit.

I've no objections to a curb bit, but they don't make a horse safe.

Oh - and my gelding will neck rein bitless. He responds to his training, not his equipment.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

wild_spot said:


> Yet amplifying those unintentional motions.


Yes, but....I don't expect everyone to agree with me on this particular subject. I know that to some it's rather weighted. I would just argue that it's a different sort of amplification, along the lines of Vogt's explanation of presignal, etc., that still ends up being less harsh on the horse's mouth (as it plays off of at least three dispersion pressure points, as opposed to the single concentrated point of a snaffle)....at least in some scenarios. For the self-described Expert Cowboy intentionally jerking and snatching on the horse's mouth, obviously this won't apply, but there's not really going to be any kind of bit that can minimize that damage. For the novice who is green but means no harm, and in a situation like trail riding, I would still oftentimes recommend the curb, contingent on the horse's training level.



> Then they definitely don't have the skills to use a curb correctly. In terms of mechanics, it's far more simple. Pull left to turn left, right to turn right, and back to stop. Most novices don't have the subtlety to neck rein passably, let alone well. They will plow rein and without any kind of feel.


This may lead into the differences in countries/regions you hinted at. Most Western riders, in my experience (and I think an earlier poster said the same thing), just want to neck-rein on a loose rein when they're first starting out. They may not understand how to do it correctly, but they try all the same. And when you're neck-reining badly, you get into conflicting cues with the snaffle as you pull your horse's head to the outside.



> I know that riding is completely different in the US than here. It may just be how I see most people riding when they start out around me. They just want the horse to go where they point it, steer, and some semblence of slowing when asked. They generally ride fairly relaxed, with longer reins. If they get stressed, they hang on the mouth.


Yes, this is the case, but keep in mind that most broke horses over here are ridden in curbs, anyway. Either from the reason that kevinshorses and I described earlier, or from having a ruined mouth from harsh riding, these horses no longer respect a snaffle. That really is an undeniable fact when it comes to a lot of horses around here. Now, it is theoretically possible to retrain these horses to a snaffle (whether it's desirable or necessary is a different issue), but that will require an experienced trainer. You can't expect a novice to know how to do that. And that's when you end up with the "crazy, dangerous, stupid, runaway horse" scenario:









This, only with a snaffle and Western tack, and out on the trail!

Whereas if you had used a "harsher" bit, with simply a different action (but one the horse respects), you wouldn't have to be see-sawing and lying flat back in the saddle. It saves the horse's mouth, and potentially his life, in the long run.



Scoutrider said:


> This is why I so often recommend a simple snaffle setup in conjunction with some good riding lessons. If a rider is having control issues, all physical reasons for the horse's disobedience ruled out, changing the bit one way or the other isn't going to solve the problem. A snaffle bit, because it doesn't multiply forces, is going to be somewhat more forgiving of the bad hands of a still-learning rider.


For this reason, a woman I worked for made all of her beginning riders use bitless bridles. There was no finesse possible with those **** things, but it certainly did spare the horse.



> Changing bits won't teach anyone to have better hands; only experience and good instruction can do that. In the meantime, best to outfit the horse and rider in the most simple-to-understand and user-friendly equipment possible.


I agree, except in the situation I have already described, when the horse has decided that no way, no how is a snaffle going to stop him....for whatever reason.



> I'm all for curb bits, as long as the horse is properly prepared for it, and the rider understands the way that they work and how to ride it. What I'm against is adding any article of tack purely in the name of increasing control or taking the place of proper training. Tack doesn't make good horses. Good riders do.


I also agree with this. Except in the case of a beginner, I think that control and safety are important enough factors to warrant a tack upgrade, when necessary. This is a different scenario, to me, than a trainer forcing a headset with a martingale or grabbing a bike-chain bit to get a good stop.



Spyder said:


> And then they use it as an excuse to not learn properly as now they simply don't have to learn.
> 
> These are the ones that come to forums like ours and wonder why the horse does this or that...they never learned to ride correctly.


Fine enough. But should everyone _really_ have to learn to ride to some outstanding level? What about people who just want to enjoy their pet horses on the weekends? 

As long as they follow a minimum protocol of safety and refrain from actually hurting their horse (and don't claim to be expert trainers), who are we to judge? Gee, it's about having fun, isn't it? This is why horseback riders have such a reputation of being snooty, cliquish know-it-alls.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

bubba13 said:


> Fine enough. But should everyone _really_ have to learn to ride to some outstanding level?


Where did I say they did?



bubba13 said:


> As long as they follow a minimum protocol of safety and refrain from actually hurting their horse (and don't claim to be expert trainers), who are we to judge? Gee, it's about having fun, isn't it? This is why horseback riders have such a reputation of being snooty, cliquish know-it-alls.


Too bad that anyone that rides at a level above you makes you think they are all snooty cliquish know-it-alls.


I actually find those that know the bare minimum to be the ones that come on forums like these with the know it all attitude. You yourself have made many posts here and elsewhere stating that to many of them.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

bsms said:


> ???????????????????
> 
> If someone can't ride safely with a snaffle, they are on the wrong horse. I have no objection to most bits, including curbs. But if you need a 'stronger bit' to control your horse, you have a training issue - probably for both horse and rider.


I have a teenage gelding. He is a former heading horse and (bad) barrel horse. He spent the first 14 years of his life being ridden very badly and jacked around by cowboys. When he came to me, he had passed through a horse trader who is a very good hand with horses. I actually respect her a lot as a trainer. She is really not particularly harsh on her horses.

My gelding had bloody sores on the corners of his mouth from her riding. I now know why.

He has no respect for any bit. The second he feels pressure, he tightens up and braces. He'll run straight through it. He's taken off with me in a curb before, sure, but it's far worse in a snaffle. You could pull the corners of his lips straight back to his ears and he'll run all the harder. And if you try to use leg pressure to get him to engage himself properly and back off the bit, he'll speed up even more.

But that's what he was taught.

I now ride him in a flat leather noseband and nothing else. It's the only thing that doesn't make him get nervous and bolt when pressure is applied. And yes, he is responsive in it.









Sidepass!

I have a mare who hates snaffles. She'll brace and fight with her head thrust into the sky and her neck bulged out. She'll try to take off, too. I *can* control her, but it involves a lot of hauling on her face. Yet I can also ride her bridleless, with just a rope around her neck and no halter or nothin'. She rides best, however, in a loosely-adjusted Myler-type shanked bit with a dangling leather curb. In terms of the leverage it provides, it's pretty much 1:1, just like a snaffle. In terms of severity, it's also about the same as a snaffle--even less than a snaffle when a large degree of pressure is applied to either bit. But it has a totally different action. And this is the result:










So in other words, I agree with the vast majority of your post, but still stand by what I said previously.



> I started riding with a skittish mare who was a horrible choice for a new rider. And I rode her bitless, because she didn't like bits. I've had her bolt bitless...but then, I've also tried bits, and she has bolted with them as well - all types tried. Her bolting is a training issue, for her and for me both.
> 
> In my twenties, I visited a ranch and used a horse that was "bombproof". I guess a nuke went off that day, because he bolted. The curb bit didn't change anything. Hauling his head around until his nose was at my knee didn't change anything. I turned him by kicking his shoulder with my boot - just in time to avoid a barbed wire fence. He ran himself to exhaustion - with a curb bit.
> 
> ...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

bubba13 said:


> I have a teenage gelding. He is a former heading horse and (bad) barrel horse. He spent the first 14 years of his life being ridden very badly and jacked around by cowboys...
> 
> ...He has no respect for any bit. The second he feels pressure, he tightens up and braces. He'll run straight through it...
> 
> So in other words, I agree with the vast majority of your post, but still stand by what I said previously.


Sounds like an incredibly bad choice for a beginner rider. And yes, my mare was sold to me as a "good horse for a beginner" - which is true, if the beginner wants to experience bolting.

For a new rider with a horse like that, my recommendation would be "Sell the horse", not "use a curb".

Of course, if I had been smart, I'd have sold my mare after getting hurt 3.5 years ago. It is still an open question if my ability will rise to her level of need before something worse happens...but you can't fix stupid.

FWIW, I rarely see western riders outside of real ranches or competitions using curb bits. The lady I took western lessons from last summer, and the lady who I'm taking lessons from now, both prefer snaffle bits to curbs, and I don't have the experience to disagree. My gelding has graduated from "Need a bit to be calm" to "Happy in a halter", so I don't worry much about bits right now. I'd have to become a better rider to reach the point where it would make a difference for me.

Interesting thread...or it will be, if I don't end up needing to edit comments from folks. Let's try to focus on the bit discussion.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

bsms said:


> ???????????????????
> 
> If someone can't ride safely with a snaffle, they are on the wrong horse.



I think this is too much of a generalization which forgets horses are thinking animals - not machines - and can have preferences for what feels comfortable in their mouths. 

I've trained my horse to the point I can ride in the arena bridleless but when we go out on the trail I use a kimberwicke. Majority of the time we are on a loose rein and he responds perfectly fine between seat aids and neck reining. 

If I ride him out on the trail with a snaffle - even on a loose rein like I would the kimberwicke - I end up constantly fighting him. Heck - if I ride him in the arena with a snaffle he makes sure it isn't a pleasant ride. He hates a snaffle and constantly braces and fights against it. I can't even ride him loose rein on a snaffle without issue. But if he does decide to try something with the kimberwicke - all it takes is a couple tries and he remembers why he respects that bit and our ride goes smoothly again. And considering sometimes we are riding up in the knobs where there are drop offs - I won't take a chance with a snaffle.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I can see Bubba's point, that there are times when it is overall safer for both rider (beginner) and horse for the pair to be with a curb bit.
Take for example a dude ranch situation. All kinds of persons of mostly nonexistant horse experience are put up on a horse they just met and taken out into the wide open. These horses almost always wear curb bits. It can be distressing for us persons with experience to see the horse react to the rider's heavy hand at times. But the rider feels better knowing he can stop the horse, and the dude ranch opperator feels better knowing these "dudes" can stop, and yes, the horse probably suffers. But he has a job, he is fed and that's a lot better than many horses sent to auction/slaughter.

ANd, I see her point in the case of a rider who is out in the boonies, comes on this forum for adivice, is unwilling and unlikely to seek out instruction, even if it were available, but has a problem horse (actually, of course it's the rider or lack of training. It always is). So, putting them in a snaffle may only make them more likely to have a wreck. At least with a curb, that rider has brakes. 
Yes, the horse is the wrong horse, yes she should learn how to ride better. But will that happen? H m m m. not likely.

So, I think this is the case where Bubba is saying it might be better to just recommend a curb.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> I can see Bubba's point, that there are times when it is overall safer for both rider (beginner) and horse for the pair to be with a curb bit.
> Take for example a dude ranch situation. All kinds of persons of mostly nonexistant horse experience are put up on a horse they just met and taken out into the wide open. These horses almost always wear curb bits. It can be distressing for us persons with experience to see the horse react to the rider's heavy hand at times. But the rider feels better knowing he can stop the horse, and the dude ranch opperator feels better knowing these "dudes" can stop, and yes, the horse probably suffers. But he has a job, he is fed and that's a lot better than many horses sent to auction/slaughter..


Horses in this situation are better trained then their riders at least in ways to protect themselves from their inexperienced riders. They have learned ways to evade problems created by their riders.



tinyliny said:


> ANd, I see her point in the case of a rider who is out in the boonies, comes on this forum for adivice, is unwilling and unlikely to seek out instruction, even if it were available, but has a problem horse (actually, of course it's the rider or lack of training. It always is). So, putting them in a snaffle may only make them more likely to have a wreck. At least with a curb, that rider has brakes.
> Yes, the horse is the wrong horse, yes she should learn how to ride better. But will that happen? H m m m. not likely.
> 
> So, I think this is the case where Bubba is saying it might be better to just recommend a curb.


And in the cases of horses ridden out in the boonies where many riders are using whatever works, even if it is a wire bit or whatever and ask what we may consider to be a stupid question the best I would do is tell them they need to look at other options or say they are in error ( I would not recommend something that I don't believe in), and at worst I would simply ignore the thread. Most times these people simply want conformation they are right. If that makes me look like I am snobby then so be it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> ...But the rider feels better knowing he can stop the horse, and the dude ranch opperator feels better knowing these "dudes" can stop, and yes, the horse probably suffers...
> 
> ...At least with a curb, that rider has brakes...


Really? If a horse is scared, will causing pain make it stop? And if the rider is a newbie, and scared, won't they use the curb to cause pain? Does yanking on the mouth with a curb bit stop a panicked horse? Or will it prolong the bolt?

I have limited experience with horses, but I do have some experience with one particular horse bolting. Based on a sample size of one, with multiple repeats, I'd expect it to make the bolt worse.

From my limited experience, a dude out riding who has a horse that bolts on him would probably do well to drop the reins (if one piece) and hang on to the horn. If a curb bit is a guaranteed stop, I need to buy one...


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

Interesting thread! I have no qualms with the snaffle, and if I had the option of starting a horse from scratch myself it would be my bit of choice.

However I've had many experiences with horses with all sorts of backgrounds, good and bad, and found that you just cannot make generalized comments regarding bits and have to look at it from a case to case basis. I worked on an english lesson string where they frequently bought horses from old dude strings and the like. These horses would be accustomed to curbs and would be expected to make the switch to a snaffle; some were unflappable and took the switch just fine, some would tolerate it but would always fight the bit to some degree (I'm not condoning the string's practices by any means, battling the bit was often met with martingales or different "english" bits, as beginner students couldn't be expected to work the horse through the issues), and some just couldn't handle it and were sent back - they may have been able to with some time and patience and work on their true issues, but often these horses were absolutely fine with the curb, even better when the curb was in experienced hands.

Personally, I started out riding as a small child at a trail riding place, taught to neck rein on big horses with curbs. It's hard to say how the experience at the age of 6 affected me when I began riding english and direct reining with snaffles years later, but it may have been a factor in me keeping a softer hand. The dude string horses were always easier to control (even with the evasive tactices) when you compare it to a lesson pony with a snaffle, a mouth of steel, and the same desire to evade, even with me 10 years older and stronger. I experienced a bolt as a young child on the trail on a 15hh+ pinto, and remember being able to pull him up - this is purely anecdotal and may not have been the outcome on a different horse, but the leverage action of the curb does give a kid better odds in such a situation, and I can see Bubba's point.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Personally my standpoint is because of what I've seen. I see far more horses gaping their mouth and hollowing their back with inexperienced riders and curbs, than with inexperienced riders and snaffles. 

It's funny that the picture you chose was a horse out if control in a curb! It is just as easy for a horse to get out of control in a curb or a snaffle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

bsms said:


> Really? If a horse is scared, will causing pain make it stop? And if the rider is a newbie, and scared, won't they use the curb to cause pain? Does yanking on the mouth with a curb bit stop a panicked horse? Or will it prolong the bolt?
> 
> I have limited experience with horses, but I do have some experience with one particular horse bolting. Based on a sample size of one, with multiple repeats, I'd expect it to make the bolt worse.
> 
> From my limited experience, a dude out riding who has a horse that bolts on him would probably do well to drop the reins (if one piece) and hang on to the horn. If a curb bit is a guaranteed stop, I need to buy one...


 
If a horse is truly scare enough to leave his mind, then no bit will stop him. but in the case of the dude horses, the curb will probably be more effective when they have it in their mind to eat on the trail, or turn and go for home and such. It aint' a guarantee. No bit is.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Yes, wild spot, I noticed the photo was of a pelham bit (curb) with converter straps. Oh, well.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

bsms said:


> Sounds like an incredibly bad choice for a beginner rider. And yes, my mare was sold to me as a "good horse for a beginner" - which is true, if the beginner wants to experience bolting.


Interestingly, he was also marketed as the "perfect kid's horse"....and was, until his mouth wounds healed.



> FWIW, I rarely see western riders outside of real ranches or competitions using curb bits. The lady I took western lessons from last summer, and the lady who I'm taking lessons from now, both prefer snaffle bits to curbs, and I don't have the experience to disagree. My gelding has graduated from "Need a bit to be calm" to "Happy in a halter", so I don't worry much about bits right now. I'd have to become a better rider to reach the point where it would make a difference for me.


I think it's a growing movement to stay in a snaffle, with the mistaken belief that it's a gentler, kinder bit. I have no qualms with staying in a snaffle, but wish it were not misrepresented as the "natural alternative." I want every horse ridden in the _most appropriate_ gear, whatever that may be. Although everyone I know around here does ride in a curb.



tinyliny said:


> So, I think this is the case where Bubba is saying it might be better to just recommend a curb.


Yes, exactly, with the examples you described (cut to save space).



Spyder said:


> And in the cases of horses ridden out in the boonies where many riders are using whatever works, even if it is a wire bit or whatever and ask what we may consider to be a stupid question the best I would do is tell them they need to look at other options or say they are in error ( I would not recommend something that I don't believe in), and at worst I would simply ignore the thread. Most times these people simply want conformation they are right. If that makes me look like I am snobby then so be it.


I would rather help both rider and horse and give them actual advice they can use to improve the former's safety and the latter's welfare.



bsms said:


> Really? If a horse is scared, will causing pain make it stop?


If a horse is truly scared, no. But if a horse is simply stubborn, resistant, hard-mouthed, etc.....probably. 



Allison Finch said:


> Yes, wild spot, I noticed the photo was of a pelham bit (curb) with converter straps. Oh, well.


Actually, it's a Myler combo bit:



Which is actually a rather gentle piece of equipment. It's just being vastly misused and misunderstood here. bad_riding: My shortcut sense is tingling...

But if you'd prefer...!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

LOL, pass the popcorn we could be here for ever, because this conversation really has no end.

The right bit to use, the one that suits that horse best!

For 30 odd years I rode everything in a simple single jointed snaffle, only changing it up if the horse needed it, and thought I was doing the right thing by my horses.

Then someone introduced me to French Link snaffles, well I was totally hooked, they looked much kinder than a single joint, so I gradually collected a bunch, and guess what, some of my guys, most notably Ace, don't go well in them at all. Ace hangs heavy on it the whole time.

There is a key for every horses mouth you just have to find it.

As to curbs v snaffles, I agree that in a lot of cases a curb is the best choice, I think it was Bubba who said better one short sharp shock, than nag nag nag.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> better one short sharp shock, than nag nag nag.



And better yet to get the best equestrian teaching possible that ever learn to just nag nag nag, whichever bit you use.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

bubba13 said:


> They aren't _meant_ to function as snaffles. They're meant to function as....jointed curbs.



Exactly... they shouldn't be used for direct reining.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Ray Hunt told me once that a horse can learn to feel of a rider and vice versa in anything that wasn't designed to injure the horse. If you use sound horsemanship and take the time needed then you will have good results. If you are poorly educated and force the horse to progress on YOUR timetable then you will get poor results regardless of what bit you use. A curb bit is a great tool. So is a snaffle they each have thier uses. To say that a snaffle is all any horse needs is just as ignorant as saying that every horse should progress to a curb.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

bubba13 said:


> I have no qualms with staying in a snaffle, but wish it were not misrepresented as the "natural alternative." I want every horse ridden in the _most appropriate_ gear, whatever that may be...
> 
> ...If a horse is truly scared, no. But if a horse is simply stubborn, resistant, hard-mouthed, etc.....probably...


Fair enough. Happily, for the riding I'm doing now with the horses I've got now, a bit is just something extra to carry out that I don't need - but I'll keep reading this thread...needs can change.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

OK, folks, how about for all of us just to go with bitless bridle! :lol:


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## spookychick13 (Jan 1, 2011)

Oi, I love my Dr. Cook's.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

spookychick13 said:


> Oi, I love my Dr. Cook's.


Lol! See! And no more discussion about bits and what and what not!


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Quite honestly, if I'm going to go bitless, I'd just as soon use a rope halter as anything else. Though in fairness I haven't had the opportunity to try any of the name-brand bitless bridles. I just know that I hate sidepulls and I consider all metal (mechanical-type) hackamores to be "bits," based on their action.


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## Toymanator (Jul 31, 2009)

bubba13 said:


> I can isolate any part of my horse's mouth/body with a broken curb and get a remarkable degree of finesse with subtle rein cues--something that I cannot do with a snaffle.


I don't want to start a controversy or point fingers but I find it interesting that the title of this thread is "Why shanked bits are utterly evil... etc" and yet the person who created the thread is promoting riding in a curb bit. That is about as interesting to me, as the fact that this thread has that title, and yet the article that the thread was supposed to be about had nothing to say about shanked bits being evil. Seems like a real case of miscommunication to me, and maybe that's what this thread is really supposed to be about..


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Hmmm...I thought that was just called sarcasm.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Cat said:


> Hmmm...I thought that was just called sarcasm.



Maybe it's sarchasm :rofl:


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

I love sarcasm, and it gets used a lot on here and there are just some whose head it goes directly over ;-) haha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Bottom line... rough unforgiving hands will ruin a horse's mouth no matter the bit. Soft giving hands who belong to someone who has the knowledge, doesn't much matter the bit! To a degree of course...i really don't see a point in some of those bicycle chains!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bubba13 said:


> Quite honestly, if I'm going to go bitless, I'd just as soon use a rope halter as anything else. Though in fairness I haven't had the opportunity to try any of the name-brand bitless bridles. I just know that I hate sidepulls and I consider all metal (mechanical-type) hackamores to be "bits," based on their action.


Depending on sidepull. Mine was just wide leather band with headstall/throatlatch (it was custom-made). I used it for while when I started my mares. No stop, but you can't hurt the horse either, and good enough to teach steering. Eventually they progressed into the bit.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I dunno. I've used a couple of different sidepulls. Mine's a hunk-o'-junk nylon one, I'll admit. But even the nicer leather ones I've used really didn't have a whole lot of stop _or_ turn. I don't like having to exaggerate every moment and manually haul my horse in the direction I want to go--literally "side-pulling." I've had better success with the Hadden hackamore:










And jumping hackamore:


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## Horseychick94 (Nov 19, 2009)

I use curb bits all the time. My horse neck reins better in them. He also rides fine bitless or in a snaffle. If it aint broke don't fix it


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## Mike Zimmerman (Oct 30, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> A spade isn't a curb bit anyway. They are a signal bit. As the bit changes balance and moves in the horses mouth the horse gets the signal that a cue from the body is coming. A spade bit is NEVER used to get after a horse ever. Riding with a spade bit is really its own discipline. It differs as much from the rest of western riding as Spanish riding school dressage differs from polo.
> 
> The people that are really spade bit men can ride a horse in a beautiful frame and do everything a dressage horse can do and never even begin to take the slack out of a rein. There is nothing more beautiful than watching an expert horseman on a horse that is "straight up in the bridle".


I like what you had to say here about the spade bit, I would only add that in californio/vaquero horsemanship the rider first signals with the body then reminds the horse through the rein to the spade. The whole vaquro system of riding is based off signaling and balance changes and not pressure. Even when starting young horses in the traditional hackamore, it's about signaling with weight and balance change of the heel knot. I also liked what you said about riding the horse off of seat and leg signals. I think neck reining was an anglo misinterpretation of how the original californio/vaqueros rode their horses. 
What you have to concider is Les Vogt's background to know the true context of what he's saying in the OP. He's describing a bit with a balance like one with a Santa Barbara cheek.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

bubba13 said:


> I dunno. I've used a couple of different sidepulls. Mine's a hunk-o'-junk nylon one, I'll admit. But even the nicer leather ones I've used really didn't have a whole lot of stop _or_ turn. I don't like having to exaggerate every moment and manually haul my horse in the direction I want to go--literally "side-pulling." I've had better success with the Hadden hackamore:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Question for you -- my mare can't be ridden with a bit right now just temporarily because of sores in her mouth caused by foxtail in the latest hay shipment (don't get me started, grrrrrr!!!) Anyway, I've tried a sidepull that my friend owns but the nose piece is rough rawhide material and my mare hates it. The jumping hackamore you have listed looks like just what we need! HOWEVER, I'm curious about just buying the hackamore piece, not the entire bridle...I tried to do that with a mechanical hackamore and even on my bridle's smallest setting the noseband was way too low so I couldn't use it. I'm wondering whether the same thing would happen if I bought the jumping hackamore piece?


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

You could solve that by also buying some leather hole punches as well.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> You could solve that by also buying some leather hole punches as well.


It wouldn't work unfortunately, it's on the top hole and would need to go up probably another 2-3 holes and there's just no more room LOL :lol:


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Get a cheap Western headstall, nylon if you have to, and take the browband off if you have to, as well. Or go totally ghetto and make a temporary bridle out of twine.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Lol bubba ghetto bridle love it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tianimalz (Jan 6, 2009)

Hoofprints in the Sand said:


> Lol bubba ghetto bridle love it!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Hey, I've had to resort to it before. First horse, no bridle on hand- made one out of twine and wrapped it with soft fabric so it wouldn't rub :lol: Held up for two weeks until I was able to get a cute little nylon one.


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