# roan or gray or both?



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Have you got one where she isn't looking at the camera so we can see the side of her head?


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

Picture at 6 month old. The white on top of her butt is snow.


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

*ouch* ... profile, *huh*? Not her most flattering view ... ;-)


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

The white penny-sized spots make me think she is a gray......my bay-going-gray gelding has those. BUT, I don't see any white in her tail, and that is where my gelding started showing white hairs first. 

I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in white hairs on the face either way, because my gelding is definitely gray but he did not have white hairs on his face for the longest time. He certainly wasn't born with them. Everyone talks about grays being born with "goggles" but my guy didn't even have a single white eyelash when he was born. 

So I guess that doesn't help much, does it? I would part her tail and look for white hairs (if she will let you.....I don't know how much handling she's had). The penny sized spots make her look like a gray. I wonder if those are also characteristic of roans? I don't have any experience with roans to know for sure. But I know grays get them. I always hope they are the start of dapples with my guy! :lol:


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

Thanks for your input, trailhorserider. I am wondering if it can be determined at all a this point without a DNA test, especially if she is a graying roan?
This here are pictures of her (doubtlessly) roan half sisters .. well, one is a sorrel, but one can probably tell ;-) The butt behind the red roan is the filly in question, Stella.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Here is my gelding. He's almost 4 years old now, but you can see the penny spots I was talking about. Also, the white in the bottom of the tail showed up early. At first I didn't know if it was normal baby coloring or actual white hairs (because they sort of looked blondish at first) but as time went on, his tail got whiter and whiter. 

The snow photo shows him at about the same age as your filly. 

She could certainly be a true roan........I knew a guy with a bay roan that superficially looked a LOT like my gray, minus the white tail and white hairs on the face. It's just that those white spots look suspicious. :lol:


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

caljane said:


> Thanks for your input, trailhorserider. I am wondering if it can be determined at all a this point without a DNA test, especially if she is a graying roan?
> This here are pictures of her (doubtlessly) roan half sisters .. well, one is a sorrel, but one can probably tell ;-) The butt behind the red roan is the filly in question, Stella.


Well, no matter what color she turns out, you can call her beautiful. 

Hopefully some more experienced color people will chime in on here because I am not very experienced. I just happen to own a gray baby that I raised from birth.  

I know sometimes grays are easier to tell at birth because they are born without the fawn colored legs that most foals have. My guy for instance, had steel gray colored legs. But I am totally unfamiliar with true roans.....to know what they look like as foals and such. 

It will be really cool to find out exactly what she is. You will have to keep us posted!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

What breed is the sire?


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

Chiilaa said:


> What breed is the sire?


Both Quarter Horses, sire is a grandson of Blue Valentine - makes for the ... head ;-)


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Then I am erring on the side of roan with the possibility of grey. Something about the way only parts of her are showing roan makes me wonder about grey being there as well. Sometimes grey is funny with other white genes present.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

my pooky horse is blue valentine bred, he was as a foal the darkest red roan and at age 4 is what I consider a rose grey, some people still call him roan, but in winter hair he is pretty grey'white. He did the spot thing, so my guess would be she will get greyer.


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

stevenson said:


> my pooky horse is blue valentine bred, he was as a foal the darkest red roan and at age 4 is what I consider a rose grey, some people still call him roan, but in winter hair he is pretty grey'white. He did the spot thing, so my guess would be she will get greyer.


Would you have pictures?


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

stevenson said:


> my pooky horse is blue valentine bred, he was as a foal the darkest red roan and at age 4 is what I consider a rose grey, some people still call him roan, but in winter hair he is pretty grey'white. He did the spot thing, so my guess would be she will get greyer.


That's kind of confusing to me. I think you are using the term gray to describe the color (as in phenotype) but when most people say gray, they are talking genetics (genotype). So I think what you are saying is that you have a blue roan that _looks_ gray, but not that it is gray genetically? 

In my mind they are distinct because I am thinking the horse his either genetically gray, or genetically true roan, or perhaps both. 

A lot of people seem to interchange the terms out in the real world though. For example, I know one of my mare's earlier foals, the cowboy who worked with him called him "roan." I asked "is he a gray" and he was like, "no he's a roan." But his momma (the mare I bought) is a gray, and the sire a chestnut (same as my foal) so I really doubt the earlier foal is genetically roan. I think the guy called him a roan because he _looked _roan, as young grays have white and dark mixed hairs, but genetically I'm sure the earlier foal had to be a gray. But I never got to see him so I don't know for sure. In other words, I don't think the guy knew the difference. The horse looked roan to him so he called it a roan. I don't think he was aware of the concept of grays being born dark and changing color. :?


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

THR.. he was called a roan by the breeder, and as dark as he was , more red then the white hairs, i called him roan, and I had another quarter breeder call him roan. 
Now, I call him grey. he still has a dark mane and tail and the light body , dark skin. In winter he is pretty much white/grey . I am not having him dna tested for color. he is crippled and a pet.
in summer he gets the speckled look. His dam was grey and sire was sorrel but a dunny color , but not a dun.. lol hard to describe the sorrel shade..


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Chiilaa said:


> Then I am erring on the side of roan with the possibility of grey. Something about the way only parts of her are showing roan makes me wonder about grey being there as well. Sometimes grey is funny with other white genes present.


Do the spots mean anything? Are they traits of both roan and gray? It reminds me a bit of a snowflake appaloosa pattern. :hide:


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

stevenson said:


> THR.. he was called a roan by the breeder, and as dark as he was , more red then the white hairs, i called him roan, and I had another quarter breeder call him roan.
> Now, I call him grey. he still has a dark mane and tail and the light body , dark skin. In winter he is pretty much white/grey . I am not having him dna tested for color. he is crippled and a pet.
> in summer he gets the speckled look. His dam was grey and sire was sorrel but a dunny color , but not a dun.. lol hard to describe the sorrel shade..


He sounds beautiful.  

I bet if you posted photos you could get a pretty good idea of his true color without genetic testing. I never tested my guy either. There are some pretty savvy genetics people on here. 

It in grand scheme of things, unless you are breeding, it really doesn't matter. I am just fascinated by all things horse, so I try to pick people's brains as much as I can. :wink:


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

It could be grey, it could be roan that is making the smaller concentrations of white hairs. It can be really difficult to tell the difference without comparison photos. 

OP - do you have any foal photos?


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I'm feeling grey on top of roan purely because her star has gotten bigger and smudgy. If not for that I would think just roan.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I would say a roan. Gray would have shown itself in her mane or tail by now. Wout for her summer coat. It tells more than winter.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

I would say definitely roan, but not sure about gray yet.


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

blue eyed pony said:


> I'm feeling grey on top of roan purely because her star has gotten bigger and smudgy. If not for that I would think just roan.


Good point, that throws me off, too. Of course, I am in the liga "true roan", so I try to think the star away ... ;-)


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

Chiilaa said:


> It could be grey, it could be roan that is making the smaller concentrations of white hairs. It can be really difficult to tell the difference without comparison photos.
> 
> OP - do you have any foal photos?


Unfortunately the only foal pictures are her standing in the back ground, and not very big.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Definitely roan. I still wonder if grey is present - it is unusual for the foal coat to show much sign of roaning really, and grey could enhance how much shows.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I would say gray with a roan gene also present. The spots are very typical of a lot of grays. Only way to know for sure before her tail starts to get white hairs in it would be to do a DNA color check for gray. We have done several, but usually had guessed the right way and I would guess her to be gray.


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

Chiilaa said:


> Definitely roan. I still wonder if grey is present - it is unusual for the foal coat to show much sign of roaning really, and grey could enhance how much shows.


If you look at her half sisters, they do show obviously roaning at that age as well. These two, blue and red, do not have a gray parent, though.


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

I sure appreciate all your input here. I come to the conclusion: definitely roan, most likely graying out. Waiting or maybe I will invest in a DNA test just for kicks and giggles. 
Thanks everybody!


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

I have bred a Roan who is also grey,but it was easy to tell with her that she was going to go grey. 
This is her at 10dys- 









3mths-









6mths-









7mths-









Her pattern is always warring between Classic Roan expression & Greying pattern expression- was quite entertaining when she was young, as her color & pattern changed drastically rapidly.


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