# Signs the girth is too tight?



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Your girth (English) or cinch (Western) needs to be snug enough for you to mount the horse without the saddle slipping to the near side of the horse. I always (30 years+) tighten to adjust and fit 1st, lead to where I am to mount, tighten again, check tack, then tighten a 3rd time before mounting.
I teach my horses to hold their breath, so that it is really snug when I mount, but after schooling, I generally dismount and can get my fist in between the girth and the horse.
*Positioning is really important.* The girth or cinch needs to be at least 4 fingers width behind the elbow. If you girth is too far forward so is your saddle and THAT could be your horse's discomfort. Some Western saddles--I own one of these--cinches further backwards, and our CW McClellans girth up many inches further back than that.
Sometimes people with sensitive skinned horses will also take the time to pull each leg forward before mounting to make sure that nothing is uncomfortable.
http://www.schleese.com/documents/Investigating Girth Problem.pdf
If you ride English, you should tighten higher initially on the off side, then tighten alternately until it is tight. Many English riders use an elastic end girth (that buckles to the billets) to help you get it tight without "cutting the horse in two."
Btw, we all kinda glance through these posts. I want to repeat this:
*I teach my horses to hold their breath, so that it is really snug when I mount, but after schooling, I generally dismount and I can get my fist in between the girth and the horse.*
Hope this helps you. =D


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## Jayknee (Aug 8, 2013)

I have kind of a funny cinch story! A few years ago I was attending a local show. I was having a good time watching everyone compete. Their was this one chestnut paint mare that really caught my eye during the western pleasure class. She was beautifully put together, and moved with such nice flow. Graceful and balanced as one would say. I happened to be siting within ear shot of the owners mother and her coach. During the lineup after the class the mare started to act colicky. Kicking at her belly trying to go down the works! Both the mother and the coach hollered at the young lady to hop off and excuse herself from the class. They get the mare out of the arena quickly. They go to take the saddle off the mare only to find out that the cinch was so tight that you couldn't get a finger under their. The poor mare did that entire class literally cinched in two! By the time that they lined up she couldn't take it any more! hence the colic. When they got her unsaddled she took a huge gasp and was fine for the rest of the day. 

Every cense that day I have always been careful not to over tighten my cinch!


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Corporal said:


> I want to repeat this:
> *I teach my horses to hold their breath, so that it is really snug when I mount, but after schooling, I generally dismount and I can get my fist in between the girth and the horse.*




First, how do you teach a horse to hold their breath?

Second, I don't think teaching them to hold their breath does anything, as per this article. 

“Blowing Up” a Girthing Myth from EQUUS | Equisearch


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

If your horse has THIS expression on his face.....your girth might be too tight!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

updownrider said:


> First, how do you teach a horse to hold their breath?
> 
> Second, I don't think teaching them to hold their breath does anything, as per this article.
> 
> “Blowing Up” a Girthing Myth from EQUUS | Equisearch


A horses girth area behaves a lot like ours - hold your hand on your stomach and breath in - fasten a belt around it when you're breathing in and it will fit OK - then breath out and the belt will feel tighter
If you give a horse a sharp poke or slap on the side it will breath in and the girth will go up at least another hole - whether its fair to the horse or not to do it is another question.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

The girth doesn't go around the "stomach." It goes where the band of a bra would sit on a human. That area doesn't expand/contract nearly as much.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Here's one I couldn't figure out. The horse is snug cinched, walk, cinched a little more than final tightening. My arab, seemed to need the cinch tightened every time he took a dump when on a trail ride. After the third one, I dismounted and checked the cinch. There was room for my fist, never mind 4 fingers. I snugged it up, mounted and after two more dumps we arrived home with a loose cinch. The poop department has nothing to do with the cinch area so how do we account for that?


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Check the girth tightness after you're already mounted. You should be able to slide your hand under easily. I like girths with a little elastic in them, or that are slightly stretchy themselves. Horse looking at your foot may not be a girth issue. Playful and curious horses like to do that sort of stuff - sniff your foot, try to play with your riding crop, grab their own breast plate etc.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Jaydee- I believe you missed the point of my post.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

By the way, what a wonderful screen name - _The Sacrificial Sloth_! :rofl:

You must have a great sense of humour!


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## ZaneyZanne123 (Nov 9, 2013)

Horses do not and I repeat do not hold thier breaths when cinched. This is a myth. Horses are not self actualized in such manners and it goes against thier natural instincts. Even under water it will not hold its breath voluntarily. (the action of being under water goes against the bodies natural function of breathing thus causing a natural reation of not sucking in the water just like in humans and other non aquatic animals, involuntarily). Its only in panic (our body's need for oxygen) when such things occur. Horses do drown just as a human and other such animals when our body's need for oxygen outweighs the natural instincts to not suck in. Humans (and I beleive higher order primates) have the mental/ brain power or capacity to voluntarily hold our breaths untill our body's demand for oxygen causes us to breath in. 

Horses tighten thier abdominal muscles. They dont have to hold thier breaths to do such no more than we have to. When the abdominal muscles are tighten it, the girth (stomach) area, expands and breathing becomes more shalower. Beleive me they are breathing just like we do. When the muscles are relaxed the girth area decreases thus a loose girth. Kicking, hitting, slapping the horse or girthing up to abruptly will only cause the reinforcement of such action of abdominal muscle tightening. If I know someone was going to whack me in the gut you bet your bottom dollar I would get ready and tighten my abdominal muslces. The same habits form in the horse over repeated times. They arent dumb thats for sure. Girth up slowly. you wouldnt want some one to strap a belt on you and tighten it it suddenly and tightly would you? I say not. Girth up slowly, first girth up snug easily then put on the brilde and lead the horse to where your going to mount then tighten the girth tight enough to get your hand under it firmly, for your weight in the saddle will loosen the girth up naturaly. You may need to tighten again once you have mounted depending on how much saddle padding you have. Yes you can tighten a western saddle while mounted. Not easily done at first but once you get the hang of it its easy as boiling wter. 

If your horse is having a hard time breathing that could be a sign of a to tight girth. If the girth is deeply imprinting on the skin or if the fat is rolling around the edges of the girth it might be to tight. If you cant get any part of your hand between it and the horse's ribs it might be to tight. If you hear the snap of a rib bone it might be to tight. (just kidding on that one.  )


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> The girth doesn't go around the "stomach." It goes where the band of a bra would sit on a human. That area doesn't expand/contract nearly as much.


Next time you girth up your horse get it to breath in and see how more easily the girth goes up


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Sure they DO hold their breath. Just like humans your rib cage expands when you inhale.
*I tighten up multiple times* and watch to see that my horse is bracing against a tight girth. Then I use it to my benefit. My horse starts to push out when he thinks I am tightening the girth yet AGAIN, and THAT is when I mount, so he holds the saddle tighter for me. Again, when I dismount after schooling, there is space between the girth and the horse. It makes both me and my horse happy.
I also prefer to use string girths and string cinches when I can bc they conform to the individual horse's shape and, IMHO, they are more comfortable.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Corporal said:


> *I tighten up multiple times* and watch to see that my horse is bracing against a tight girth. Then I use it to my benefit. My horse starts to push out when he thinks I am tightening the girth yet AGAIN, and THAT is when I mount, so he holds the saddle tighter for me. Again, when I dismount after schooling, there is space between the girth and the horse. It makes both me and my horse happy.


What you are describing is something your horses naturally do, and this method falls short of the claim you made that you teach all of your horses to hold their breath.


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## ZaneyZanne123 (Nov 9, 2013)

The rib cage has to expand in order of the lungs to have room to fil with air while inhaling. Just as it does when they exhale. 

"Bracing" is the horse tightening abdominal muslces, not holding thier breath. I guarantee you he will not hold his breath just for you to mount and dismount (An instinct he vonluntarily does not hold to begin with.) no more than he would if I shut off his nostrils. He will fight to breath in.


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## ZaneyZanne123 (Nov 9, 2013)

*Just as it does when they exhale *was meant to read... Just as it relaxes when they exhale. Typo.

It all works on pressure physics.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Hhhmmm. Humans can voluntarily, and involuntarily, perform the so-called Valsalva manouevre, which has survival value in certain situations and does entail temporary holding of the breath. We also do it when lifting heavy things, or bracing ourselves. I would be very surprised if other mammals didn't do it too.


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## ZaneyZanne123 (Nov 9, 2013)

The Valsalva maneuver is not holding ones breath but forcing air through through a closed airway. I can hold my breath with out forcing. 

Valsalva maneuver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I use the Valsalva Maneuver to help correct my SVT events. 
Not the same dynamics as holding ones breath. A horse will not hold his nostrils and blow out forcefully. Tightening the muscles while performing a forcefull movement (quick stop and turn and etc) can create a grunt or a valsalvic type reaction but its reactionary (involuntary) and mommentary and caused by sudden tightening of muscles that cause one to blow against a closing or restricted ariway. Its not the same as voluntarily holding a breath to create a reaction of lung/chest expansion to keep a girth or strap from being tightened. It is not the same as holding a breath before going under water. It is not the same as being self actualized to voluntarily hold a breath to get a reward. You cannot teach a horse to do this no more than I can teach it not to poop.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

The Valsalva manoeuver does entail a temporary delay of respiration, as does the dive reflex. However technical you want to be about the variations that come under the umbrella of Valsalva manoeuver, the fact is that humans and other animals sometimes do hold their breaths when bracing against things, and in plenty of other situations. Don't get me started on whales. Animals have myoglobin in their muscles to deal with temporary oxygen deficits. The drive to breathe is not quite as all-encompassing as you have suggested, and there are survival-related reasons for sometimes not breathing, in humans and other mammals. Breathing can be easily voluntarily overridden in mammal species, compared to e.g. rate of heartbeat.


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## mnevans (Apr 13, 2014)

One mare I use to ride after tacking up and riding for 45 minutes or so I would have to re tighten the cinch up because she would it seem to let some air out of herself and the cinch would become loose. I always did the finger test on tightening the cinch up. Never seemed to have a problem with her and everyone nicknamed her H*ll-B*tch because of her moods. Also, with your horse she could be stretching and smelling you or trying to get an itch. Check her skin and also your girth for anything that might be poking her or irritating her skin. Could be a sore, or a weed or something like that, don't automatically assume something that you have read online could be the problem with your horse. I tend to find out if I read something and keep watch for it I seem to always find what I'm watching for even if it has nothing to do with what I seen online or read somewhere! Just some suggestions!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Valsalva's Manoeuvre is defined by Elaine Marieb in her internationally used undergraduate medical textbook _*Human Anatomy and Physiology*_ as "inhaled air being *held* temporarily in the lower respiratory tract by *closing* the glottis. The diaphragm and abdominal muscles then contract, and the intra-abdominal pressure rises." (emphases added for present context) ... you can't build up pressure without closing the glottis, which is why people with damage to the recurrent laryngeal nerve who can't reliably fully close their glottis can have great trouble coughing / effectively clearing their airways, and performing other body functions generally taken for granted.

Valsalva's Manoeuvre is naturally performed in mammals during coughing, sneezing, urination, defaecation, labour, and bracing the body when dealing with, for example, pulling or lifting a heavy load. Experienced horses quite conceivably perform Valsalva's Manouevre when anticipating the immediate mounting of the rider, as bracing against the load is helpful for stability. This would explain the observations of some of the contributors to this thread. The breath is held during this process, as explained above. Breath holding is under voluntary control in mammals that are not in immediate oxygen deficit.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'll add what I think is another reason the cinch gets looser: the saddle shifts to where it is supposed to be instead of where we put it. One custom saddle tree maker uses the analogy of two spoons nestled together:










Of cutlery and saddle fit...

The curve of the saddle tree has some spot on the back where gravity and the horse's motion will move it. The cinch tends to shift forward or aft to reach the spot of smallest circumference.

To avoid that, I normally put the saddle on with the cinch hanging an inch, then lead my horse through a few figure 8s. That gives the saddle and her shoulders time to get it where it needs to go...a point I now recognize if I use my normal saddle. With most saddles, my cinch or girth needs to angle forward. The sticky neoprene girths I use with my English saddles stay in place well, but my felt (Australian) or mohair (western) ones will slide forward to just behind her elbow. Folks can tell me that is the wrong place for a cinch, but my wool ones end up there regardless.

Also see here:

Proper position of a Western saddle

Troubleshooting Saddle Fit Problems

If you are cinching up really tight to keep the saddle from shifting, you might consider your saddle fit. I'm guilty of using a too wide saddle that I really like and padding up, and that my horse works well with...except for when she doesn't:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/my-first-emergency-dismount-mia-while-377705/#post4940497

As much as I like the saddle, it may go up for sale. Then again, I may keep it in case I ever buy a wider horse. Hmmm....

Last summer, my daughter was cantering Trooper up the trail, weaving from side to side to follow the trail. As they got closer, I noticed something wrong. So I held my hand up to stop her, and then pointed out the cinch had come undone & was hanging 6 inches below Trooper's chest. It was banging Trooper's legs with every stride, but Trooper isn't the sort to panic easily...unlike a certain mare of my acquaintance. :evil: My daughter dismounted, retied it, and remounted. But when the saddle fit is really good, and the horse has some withers, you can get by without the cinch. When it works like that, you aren't tempted to offer chicken blood to Norse deities and ask Thor for strength as you go to tighten the girth/cinch.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

I like the spoon analogy. ^^^^^^^

Bsms...I'd keep that saddle you like if I were you.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

And the horse!


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## ZaneyZanne123 (Nov 9, 2013)

First off I have done some research on this and have spoken to a Vet in regards to this. Sneezing and coughing cannot be included in this because one cannot do this while holding ones breath. It is NOT the valsalva manuver because air is being past through the lungs, trachea, larynx, nose mouth and it cannot be performed while holding ones breath. Abdominal muscles are being tightened but air is not being held back. 

The Valsalva manuver is a unconcious (involuntary) effort in horses and most other mammals (not talking about aquatic mammals)except higher order primates and HUMANS. The Valsalva manure is a concious and unconcious abililty in HUMANS and high order primates. One can indeed hold ones breath WITHOUT abdominal tension this is *not* Valsalva M.

Horses do not hold the brain power or concious function to perform Valsalva M. like Humans do. It is a natural bodily function that *occurs with out concious effort *and is momentary like in defication, labor, urination and etc. A horse does not perform such manuver conciously and is an innate bodily response to the contracture of muscle groups being performed at a given time. He (the horse) does not even remotely even think about it. A horse or other mammal cannot be taught to perform this no more than it can be taught not to. HUMANS on the other hand can be and can perform the Valsalva manuver upon request. The Valsalva M is performed in HUMANS unconciously and conciously during labor,defication and etc.

A horse can and does learn through repition to tighten and hold abdominal muscle upon girthing up but he is indeed breathing. He can tighten his abdominal muscle groups with out having to hold his breath. We humans can do the same thing. 

He will not conciously stand there and hold his breath while you figure out what to do with the girth. It goes against all of his basic innate instincts to do such. You can no more teach it than I can teach my cat to dance the mexican hat dance while playing the flute. 

This is just another effort of a human being trying to put human concepts emotional or physical into an animal ie the horse. We are NOT the same no matter how much humans want to think that. Thier innate functions are not the same as ours nor is thier brain capacity.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This is the valsalva maneuver as taught by the military for flying:










It is done by attempting exhalation against a closed airway. This is quite different from merely sucking in air and then pausing before exhaling. But it may not be relevant anyways:

"_What is interesting is research that shows that the total change in circumference of the chest where the cinch goes is less than an inch, even when the horse is galloping._"

But also, as the horse MOVES:

"_In a study done on rib cage shape and movement, they discovered that the radius from the center of the horse to the outside of the rib cage can increase over three inches at certain phases of the stride compared to the standing horse. (They think this is because the muscles that pull the body forward toward over the planted front leg attach on the ribs, so that pulls the ribs forward and, because they are curved, out and away from the midline in the same way a bucket handle moves away from the rim of the bucket as you lift it. (1), (2) ) So there really is good reason to use natural material cinches and latigos that have some stretch to them!_"

Movement of the rib cage

I'm probably not the only person who has gotten down from a horse after 10 minutes and tightened things by a good 3 inches. A difference of that magnitude doesn't come from the horse breathing, holding air in, etc, because the difference is greater than a horse achieves by the effects of breathing while standing.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

ZZ: At this stage I recommend an animal anatomy / physiology course, and reading some medical textbooks, and perhaps sitting a few exams on the subjects. Some of the stuff you have posted has some serious misconceptions and self-contradictions in it, which I'm not going to go through one by one. One thing though, in case you're interested: The reason Valsalva's manoeuvre is important in coughing / sneezing is because you have to build up intra-abdominal pressure before you can expel anything effectively, and it's done by closing the glottis, before opening it again to allow the (then more or less explosive) release of air. I don't know where you are getting the idea that horses can't do Valsalva's. All mammals do it. If you are reading and taking on board what some other people have tried to explain here, I don't see much evidence of it, and I'm now going to give up unless I feel my time investment is actually valuable.

I used to teach animal anatomy and physiology at university level, and mark people's examinations on such topics. Feel free to argue with the textbooks if you like.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

ZaneyZanne123 said:


> A horse can and does learn through repition to tighten and hold abdominal muscle upon girthing up but he is indeed breathing.


Fine, split hairs. WhatEVER you call it, horses learn to do this. I believe that are conscious enough and intelligent enough to realize that by doing this the saddle ends up being looser and THEY end up being more comfortable bc of it.
I capitalize on this behavior and encourage it, bc I feel better when my horse is comfortable. Savvy?


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