# Federico Caprilli (1868-1907) Thoughts on training a Cavalry Horse



## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Fascinating. I love to read/hear of the old ways. The jumper part is interesting as well... I've taken an interest in show jumping before, but there are a couple of aspects I dislike. The 'counting strides' thing is very confusing. Seems to me I should be able to train my horse to think her way to a jump on her own rather than do it for her as if she was a motorized vehicle. I also do not like how high even the lowest level jumps are in show jumping. Hunter jumper is lower, but then you are subject to a judge's opinion to win the class, rather than a clock.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This quote isn't from Littauer, @*horseluvr2524* . Some years ago, reading Common Sense Horsemanship, it occurred to me that Littauer taught jumping as a means of teaching riding, instead of teaching riding as a means of jumping. This quote from Caprilli sets it out:



> After a few days when the cavalryman has been riding the horse, you will make him work over a small, moveable barrier that is gradually increased up to fifty or sixty centimeters.
> 
> This exercise is the only one that made progress (without which no one else has remotely found a replacement), to produce deliberate riders and teach them instinctively to take natural balance even when the horse makes unexpected moves, and at the same time convincing them not to balance off the horse's mouth.


They didn't jump to show how high or how far they could jump. They taught jumping to teach a secure seat. Not a DEEP seat, but still a secure one.

Not surprisingly, Caprilli and Littauer both taught jumping as something the horse did while the rider stayed out of the way. Littauer admitted counting strides, etc helps in competitive showjumping, but that was because he felt competitive showjumping had turned to artificial means to solve artificial problems.

I really wish I had been wearing my movie camera today when Trooper & Cowboy, our Steady Eddies, took off. Neither my wife nor my DIL felt they were in any way close to falling off. It could be the climbing up and down, or the twisting between cactus, but they both felt fine. To the point of looking back and thinking it was "fun"!

Neither uses a Forward Seat. I was, because that is what I learned and really what I love. Trotting in the wash today, stirrups just short enough that my rump didn't touch the saddle, feeling Bandit rolling along beneath me freely, back engaged but not restricted - that felt heavenly to me. And when I needed to engage Bandit strongly to keep him from following the others in a gallop away from the broken trampoline, I felt solid. He was shifting around, turning, moving sideways, twisting, trying to figure out a way past the trampoline to join his buddies without actually going PAST the trampoline. The ground beneath us was uneven, with cactus at one side and rocks behind us. The last thing I needed was to interfere with his balance as we 'discussed' options.

I guess I view the Forward Seat in the old school way, as the cavalry approach to teaching a rider how to stay on while allowing his horse the maximum FREEDOM of movement. Not a "*Jump Seat*", but a "*Field Seat*" - and system for training and riding a horse. I also think that approach is one easy for a horse to understand, and respond to:



> ...the horse who has rational exercise, during which he is allowed to balance himself as he pleases, not being punished with needless suffering, develops in the most efficient fashion, with great advantage to his way of carrying himself, and becomes docile and submissive to the wishes of the rider.


When I look at some of the western 'sports' such as reining and WP, I conclude Caprilli is a radical and as needed today as he was over 100 years ago. Including for those of us riding in tack like this:











Not sure what Littauer or Caprilli would say, but I sure wish I could discuss it with them over dinner!​


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I thought I had very good balance on a horse (able to ride out near anything) until I took up jumping. It showed me my seat still needs work! My last jump was this past summer, over a log in a field. It was my best jump ever, as both me and horse were super in tune and it felt so fluid and natural.

I'm looking forward to getting a few cavaletti X things built (not sure what they are called, but the cavaletti poles set on Xs so you can raise them a teeny bit) and getting back to riding. This nice weather is taunting me so much, since life has kinda come in and stopped me from riding the second it cooled down!

P.S. As much as I was looking forward to it, I will have to rescind my offer on meeting up sometime to ride this winter. Had some unexpected changes and I no longer have access to a trailer for grand adventures.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'd like to start Bandit on "a few cavaletti X things". I doubt jumping anything significant is in our future, but I'd like to have some things I can work with him on in our little arena. He seems like the sort of horse who might enjoy jumping small jumps, although I don't think he is built for anything over 18-24 inches. He would need to learn it, though. Right now, he carefully STEPS over anything that height.

If I did, my goal would be like Caprilli's - using jumping to improve my balance and seat for field riding. And maybe see if Bandit liked it as a form of play.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Not sure exactly where you are going with this,in reference to reining, as one rides in a position where one stays balanced with a horse.
Where do you think you would be, sitting way forward, when a horse stops suddenly to turn a cow on the fence?
Try taking a cow down the fence, and that also creates a secure seat!
You ride a horse according to the job he is doing, staying in balance with that horse, staying out of his way, so he can do his job

my son, working cowhorse

Myself many moons ago, running pole bending


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, if I am out on a trail, and wish to give my horse and myself a break from long trotting and posting, making time, where there is no place to gallop, I will have a foreward position , standing in my stirrups. I will also adopt a forward position when my horse is climbing a steep hill
I am certainly not going to do so, riding a horse in a run down to a sliding stop!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

you can see in this fence work , how the rider does at times adjust his upper body foreward,slightly, to help his horse, but at the same time, as we are talking of quick moves and change of direction, keeps a deep seat in the saddle


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

My point about reining was the idea that horses should be allowed to follow their own balance. When I see videos of reining now, I see horses who are over-controlled, using a false frame because that is what judges expect to see. When I look at WP, I see horses cantering like crippled crabs. 

Caprilli's thought was NOT focused on 'leaning forward'. It was not focused either on ANY kind of arena work. It had no interest in showing - any kind of showing. His thought was focused on a good field horse, and how an inexperienced rider could quickly learn to ride a good field horse almost anywhere.


> Long years of practice and of continual observation have convinced me that the horse acquires these qualities without effort provided that the rider subjects him to rational and uninterrupted training, *throughout which he tries to make his own actions the least disturbing that he can to the horse*, and tries not to impede him in the natural development of his aptitudes and energies....*while leaving him full liberty to avail himself of and to use as best it suits him his balance and his strength*. From this fundamental and unchanging principle stem all the practical rules of equitation with which I shall deal. . . .
> 
> ...*the first rule of good riding is that of reducing, simplifying and sometimes, if possible, even eliminating the action of the rider.* If the hands are used to turn and check a horse, and the legs to make him move forward and to give him resolution and decisiveness this is enough...
> 
> If natural work is required of a horse [field work] and not artificial [manege work] *he will be better able to make use of his impulses, instincts and his natural balance*.


Caprilli was interested in field horses. Not sure I see much point in a sliding stop with a field horse. So much of riding today seems focused on artificial ideas of balance and movement. "Good riding" has become defined as "controlling the horse" instead of training the horse how to handle things, then staying out of his way. As Littauer put it:



> The seat is really only a part of the method, which is dedicated primarily to schooling and controlling the horse on the basis of his natural balance and his natural way of going; the Forward Seat merely unites the rider with a horse that moves naturally.


I don't see much "natural movement" in arena sports any more. After all, if it is natural, then how can one stand out? To stand out, one needs movement that is either "supernatural" or "unnatural", depending on one's perspective. I fall in the second camp. When I watched the video's of Clinton Anderson training Titan, I kept thinking, "_Is THIS what western riding has become?_" The show world with horses strikes me as being as artificial as dog shows have become!

If someone WANTS an arena horse, then they obviously will need a different approach than Caprilli's. For me, I find Caprilli's approach both beautiful and attainable, and a much better approach for the average recreational rider than trying to imitate the professionals. And that is why I think Caprilli is both relevant to today, and why his thought is still radical.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You need to ride different from Caprilli, working cattle out in the open, doing any fast quick maneuver changes,esp a sudden stop and change of direction
You don't need to like either reining or western pl or any other discipline, but funny, those horses that are well broke, can ride out as well as any other horse.

I'm neither riding off to war, no doing cross country at speed. When I trail ride, even horses that know how to move collected, just move out naturally like any other horse, on a loose rein, and I know of no one that rides a performance horse out, and asks that horse to move collected, in frame.
I do know, if we come to a gate, it is my horse that gets to work it
No even going to comment on your western pleasure remark You don't like show horse competitions, I get that, but that does not give you the right to criticize anyone that wishes to do something with a hrose besides ride them out
It is also the show horse industry that fuels horse research, treatment advances, etc
I'm all for riding in balance with a horse, whether that be in an arena, or outside of it, I probably ride out with a way looser rein then you do, and I sure know how to stay in balance with a horse, riding on all kinds of terrain. No a recreational rider does not need to know how to get instance correct lead transitions from a standstill, flying changes, do not need to have a horse collected, so he can nail markers precisely, and I never suggested recreational riders need to take clinics from anyone that is geared towards any discipline
Nor is C. saying anything new, far as just riding out, not known by those that show and also ride out I dare say I ride with way less contact riding out, then Caprilli ever did , riding two handed
If you wish to limit yourself to old army masters, that is fine, but I like to think as riding changed, when horses became more of a recreational animal, versus one you rode into war, or just used to get from point a to point b, riding also evolved, in specific recreational pursuits with horses, and like it or not, competition with horses became a major field
There is nothing wrong with just riding out, using his techniques, but there is also nothing wrong with anyone being involved with any discipline, that requires equitation adjustment accordingly, or for anyone wanting some of both Worlds with horses, as long as that horse is happy in his job


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> You need to ride different from Caprilli, working cattle out in the open, doing any fast quick maneuver changes,esp a sudden stop and change of direction...
> 
> ...I dare say I ride with way less contact riding out, then Caprilli ever did , riding two handed
> If you wish to limit yourself to old army masters, that is fine...


I posted this thread because more people have HEARD of Caprilli than have ever read any of what little he wrote.

I also wanted to point out one CAN use his principles while using a western saddle. Never said they must. In fact, in post #3 I pointed out "_Neither [my wife nor my DIL] uses a Forward Seat_." And then point out "_I was, because that is what I learned and really what I love._"

But one of the main points I wanted to show what what Littauer summarized: "_The seat is really only a part of the method, which is dedicated primarily to schooling and controlling the horse on the basis of his natural balance and his natural way of going..._" What Caprilli taught had far less to do with "position" - which he never describes in the article - than it has to do with letting a horse balance himself. 

I didn't quote the entire article because the only translation I've found is copyrighted. It is one thing to briefly quote a small section of a copyrighted article for discussion, but an entirely different matter to steal the whole thing. One is "Fair Use" while the other is "foul" - particularly since this translator published it for free viewing! In introducing his translation of Caprilli, Dan Gilmore notes:



> Until Caprilli, the nature of the horse was something that was to be altered to meet the nature of the rider. Caprilli put the horse first: it is easier to change the nature of the rider to suit the nature of the horse...It will also demonstrate how far modern forward riding has wandered in certain aspects from Caprilli’s ‘Natural System’ of forward equitation (and usually for the worse).


 And Caprilli's goal is one he states in the first sentence: "_It is my increasing opinion, for reasons easy to understand, that the purpose of military equitation is to train men and horses in the shortest amount of time possible; to obtain from them maximum effectiveness and maximum speed in a way that promotes the temperament and physique of both; and to do so with less waste of resources._" Nothing said about cutting cattle, roping - OR JUMPING. And one of the reasons I wanted to post this was to show Caprilli was not teaching a "Jump Seat", but a way of training men and horses quickly with the goal of efficient movement across rough country.

As for contact: Being firmly in the middle, I annoy both sides. I see no reason to use constant contact, but neither do I see great harm it it - particularly when the use of contact is NOT meant to change how the horse moves his body. I see nothing admirable about draped reins. I like slack reins, but I don't use them all the time.

Nor do I see where I have limited myself in any way by posting parts of an article (and providing a link to the entire article) by someone who had huge influence on modern riding, but who is almost never read today. I do remain firmly in the Caprilli camp, though:



> ...the first rule of good riding is that of reducing, simplifying and sometimes, if possible, even eliminating the action of the rider. If the hands are used to turn and check a horse, and the legs to make him move forward and to give him resolution and decisiveness this is enough...
> 
> ....the horse who has rational exercise, during which he is allowed to balance himself as he pleases, not being punished with needless suffering, develops in the most efficient fashion, with great advantage to his way of carrying himself, and becomes docile and submissive to the wishes of the rider.


I believe new riders ought to be required to memorize that passage. There are fundamentally two approaches to riding. You can desire to conform the horse to the rider, or conform the rider to the horse. I've read a LOT of books on equitation. The vast majority focus on the former. Caprilli taught the latter. That is why I think he is relevant today.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

that cow work looks like a total gas!!


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

bsms said:


> ​


How is this an effective position in terms of not disturbing the horse's natural way of going?

The rider has a death grip on the reins, as evidenced by the gaping mouth and very shortened neck. While his torso is fairly perpendicular to the ground currently.. what on earth is going to happen when the horse's front legs hit the ground? Assuming the pommel of the saddle is high enough to keep his body from landing on the horse's neck outright, he surely will be singing soprano as his crotch takes the impact, as I cannot imagine his thigh/knee could absorb the impact and keep him totally stable. Why would he not want to drop his foot down to take advantage of the stirrup and multiple shock absorption points?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

phantomhorse13 said:


> How is this an effective position in terms of not disturbing the horse's natural way of going?...Why would he not want to drop his foot down to take advantage of the stirrup and multiple shock absorption points?...


That was the early approach, and one I think the Italian Cavalry retained. The US switched to this, which looks like a much better method:










Another picture of the Italian School, which may be more representative of what they wanted:












> The chief aim of the Italian system of riding and training horses is simplicity. *They say that they are not naturally a nation of horsemen and their soldiers only serve for one year*, and therefore they cannot aim very high or attempt anything they consider difficult. They have, therefore, eradicated all idea of training their horses to be handy as we understand handiness. They never ride in anything but snaffles; they let the horse find his own natural balance. They practically never ride with the reins in one hand, and merely train their horses to circle and turn freely, willingly and quietly, to stop quickly and quietly but on the freehand and not suddenly, and to canter on a required leg. Changing at a canter is never attempted; in fact, nothing is done which will upset the horse's mind or natural balance...
> 
> NOTE: This is a photograph of a descent known as the descent of Mombrone. This descent was done more as a test of nerve than anything else, and in pre-war days every officer had to go down it before he left the School; but accidents were not unknown and occasionally rather serious, and the practice has rather died out since the war. Mombrone is an old ruined castle about 3 miles from Pinerolo, and the descent is made from what was once a window about 20 feet from the ground, but earth is piled up a little at the bottom and now the drop is only about 15 feet.
> 
> Some Impressions of the Italian Cavalry School at Pinerolo


Also see:

Terrifying Cavalry Training Tips Part 1: Down Banks | Eventing Nation - Three-Day Eventing News, Results, Videos, and Commentary

I greatly prefer MY horse, who would undoubtedly tell me to go to Hades if I urged him over such a spot.

PS - The US method was considered a "slide", not a drop. They concluded leaning back increased the chance the horse would slip to the side, and keeping the rider's body forward allowed the horse to better use its front end. My daughter tried both ways on very short descents, and concluded it was easier for her horse if she leaned slightly forward. I agree.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I do not lean forward going down a hill I give my horse total loose rein, sit back enough to free up shoulders, legs slightly forward. I change my position, to keep in balance with my horse as needed.
Going up hill, I do lean slightly forward, as then I am freeing up that hard working back end, staying with the horse
Here is a paragraph from an aricle on this subject, by Julie Goodnight

'Goodnight often sees riders lean forward or back too much as they're riding up and down hills (or fail to adjust at all to the horse's change of balance). "It's common for riders that think that you should lean far forward as you ride uphill or far back as you ride downhill," she says.

"But those positions can actually make it more difficult for your horse to carry you. It's important to stay centered and ride so that you help your horse carry you and him up and down hills easily."

https://horseandrider.com/articles/handling-hills-julie-goodnight


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

from this article, that I agree with"
'I would suggest that leaning forward is not good. Puts too much weight on your horse's front end and making it likely that you come over his head if he stumbles. My body position going downhill is to lean back keeping my body relative to the sky as I am when I am riding on flat level ground. You'll end up putting a little weight in the stirrups with your heels down. Some riders may straighten their legs and some like me will like just a little bend in their knees. 

I am one of those that straightens their leg, while putting weight in the stirrups, going down a steep hill


Functional Horsemanship: Body Position Riding Down Hill


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Horseback Trail Riding Tips


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

.BSMS:

'PS - The US method was considered a "slide", not a drop. They concluded leaning back increased the chance the horse would slip to the side, and keeping the rider's body forward allowed the horse to better use its front end. My daughter tried both ways on very short descents, and concluded it was easier for her horse if she leaned slightly forward. I agree.,

How the heck would that help a horse use his front end?
Come ride some LOoong, steep hills, with us, and I think you will change your mind!

By the way, that picture of the Us cavalry, does NOT show the rider leaning forward, but rather keeping aligned with the horizon


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> that cow work looks like a total gas!!


It is
You first have to control the cow on the end of the arena, then take it down the fence, and turn it once both ways. You then must circle that cow in both directions


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

bsms said:


> Not surprisingly, Caprilli and Littauer both taught jumping as something the *horse did while the rider stayed out of the way*.


I love this!

One of my favorite exchanges reportedly between a student and her first lesson with a dressage instructor in Spain is:

Instructor: How do you think that movement went?

Student: I was basically just trying to not interfere.

Instructor: That's what I do, too!

I agree with so much of what you quoted, @bsms. I find it relates to both the ranch riding I do, and the polo.

Riding with the goal of not interfering with the horse requires actively riding and adjusting myself to what the horse needs in response to what we are doing and where we are doing it. I ride a lot of different horses with different needs from me. But even with the horses I ride frequently I can't assume because they did "a" in "b" way the last five times, they will do it the same way today. I hope over the years, I've become more body-aware of my impact on whomever I'm riding.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...How the heck would that help a horse use his front end?
> Come ride some LOoong, steep hills, with us, and I think you will change your mind!
> 
> By the way, that picture of the Us cavalry, does NOT show the rider leaning forward, but rather keeping aligned with the horizon


The picture shows what it shows, and it does not show a guy leaning back. 



> 64. SLIDES. In taking a slide the horse should be kept well under control by use of the reins and legs which make him start down the slide straight, and prevent any attempt to turn aside at the instant when his fore feet have started down the slide but the hind feet have not. The reins are normally held in both hands, but they may be held in one hand if the other is required for the use of weapons or other purposes. The rider's legs should remain closed against the horse, and his body inclined forward and kept there. This position allows the rider to go down the slide with his horse without danger of straining the jockey muscles. If the body is inclined backward when the horse slides, the legs are either pulled forward and up from the sides of the horse with the danger of losing the seat, or a terrific strain is put on the muscles of the legs and thighs, which is liable to strain the jockey muscles. The forward position also frees the horse's loins and allows free play of the arched muscles in the loins, which come into play when the horse brings his hocks up under him in sliding. There is less shock to the horse at the bottom of the slide if the rider is forward because the shoulders are attached to muscles which can adsorb the shock easier than the bony structure of the hindquarters.


They had a lot of practice and could experiment.








​ 

Found this stashed away, and it actually shows the Caprilli influence better:








​
If I'm on a long SLOPE, I lean back a little. And I NEVER go down spots like the cavalry used. I prefer to go around. But I do go down short distances - one where my horse has the option of finishing in a leap if needed - and ask my horse to carefully walk down a steep spot with slippery footing. For that, I find keeping my center of gravity forward helps my horse keep his footing on the front, and it is the FRONT feet that control a descent in a spot like that.

As a practical matter, I'm old and none too bold and I avoid spots where I think we could get hurt. That is in line with how Bandit approaches life, too! Getting too adventurous could leave me like this guy, and I'd rather not:









​But on these slides, the emphasis remained letting the horse keep his balance while the rider tried to stay out of the way.

For some horse sports, that would be bad. I don't think anyone could win a serious show jumping competition doing it. But for MOST recreational riders, and a lot of advanced ones, I think trying to allow the horse to balance the way he would without a rider is best. _My personal goal - which I will never reach - is to let my horse move with me the way he moves without me_.​


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

bsms said:


> But on these slides, the emphasis remained letting the horse keep his balance while the rider tried to stay out of the way.
> 
> *For some horse sports, that would be bad.* I don't think anyone could win a serious show jumping competition doing it. But for MOST recreational riders, and a lot of advanced ones, I think trying to allow the horse to balance the way he would without a rider is best. _My personal goal - which I will never reach - is to let my horse move with me the way he moves without me_.


The bolded is true. But riding with an effort to not impede your mount does not mean letting it blast about however it wishes.

I'm still responsible for making smart requests about what we need to do next.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

So, as I said, nothing new, as anyone who rides rough country, learns to stay out of a horse;s way, a trying to stay in balance with him, giving him freedom of head and neck movement, 
Glad you clarified the 'before and after , pictures!
When I referred to leaning forward, I stated that the US army picture DID not show that, with the rider riding much as I do, going down a steep slope
I was referring to your statement that your daughter found leaning forward, going down, to be 'good'
We are talking of riidng out, and there is no argument, east of all from me, who has ridden many tough trails, that you allow the horse to balance himself, stay out of his way, and trust him. Of course, this is on a horse that first of all has learned not to try and rush either up hill or down hill, which might be okay for relatively short steep hills, but will get you hurt, if not killed, on long climbs,with twists, with sheer drop offs, where you can say the entire Lord's Prayer on the way down, should you go over!
You are preaching to the choir, and basically stating what everyone who ridden horses out, has done any amount of that, esp in rough country.
MY ONLY point was, if you wish a horse to move collected, with finesse, in some performance event, you do need a few more things besides just letting th ehorse do his thing, so really did not see what your reference to reining was. If you don't rein, ever need to ride a horse that allows you to collect him, when asked, never worry about leads, of flying changes, at precise locations, then you don't need to worry about any of that training, but to suggest that anyone that does show, should just throw all that stuff to the wind, is ridiculous
Also, as someone who has certainly trail ridden my show horses, to assume that the way they are asked to go in the show ring, is then also how you would ride them outside of the showing, is about as ridiculous as saying anyone that odes something like ballet, would then just dance on a hike!
I have ridden horses to climbs above the tree line, where parts of that trail are very, very steep, where a misstep can cause you to become part of the'recycled' ecco system, where a horse has to be able to both climb without stalling out, perhaps do a 90 degree turn on a steep switch back, able to be given loose rein, to make that next 'ummp', ( a bit of area, where he is not at a steep angle, but more level place) where he allows you to ask him to pause, get some air and then continue that climb. Places , when going downhill, a horse has to rock back and drop his front legs down a rock ledge, without scrambling, places you better have that back cinch done up well.
I don't need to read Capilli, to learn those things, I only need to actually have ridden trials like that,on quite a few horses, trails where recreational riders do not venture, where only serious trophy hunters go, and where your horse better be sharp shod and 'broke'
I also don't need to post pictures out of military texts, but can use actual pictures of where I have ridden
Unfortunately, most of those pictures are in photo albums, so I am limited to the few I have scanned in
I do not disagree with one iota of having a horse you can trust,riding out, to stay in balance with that horse, to allow that horse freedom, esp on tricky climbs, but totally see any attempt to insinuate that ever requiring'more;of a horse, as in discipline specific events, then means that horse cannot ride out like any other horse, providing he is given that experience
Also, to be tolerant of all activities people do with horses, not just your own recreational interests, to then put down anyone who does train atop reiner, where that horse follows the Reining horse motto, 'To rein a horse, is to control is every move', is, well, narrow minded!
I do believe I have a more balanced view, having both shown in several disciplines and having ridden about as tough trails as there are
. A well trained horse is a well trained horse, and horses are also not stupid. Show horses also ridden out, know the difference as to when they are asked to move in any show horse type of frame, and when they need to just be a solid horse riding out, on a loose rein, allowed to be in balance with their rider, both given free rein, as indicated, BUT also, allow themselves to be picked up, rated and guided, as needed
I still reserve the right, when my horse is trying to walk along a steep bank, of a steep wash out, to ask him to walk down the middle of it, for instance


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I'm not exactly new to knowing what is needed to ride a horse in rough country!
I did not need to read old military texts,post pictures out of them-nope, just ride many horses out, on trails you never see the average recreational rider on
That also does not mean, if some of my horses happen to be able to do a western riding pattern for instance, nailing flying changes at exact markers, ridden on a loose rein, or do a complicated tight trail a pattern, that requires collection, the one just follows the bIble of Capilli, whose riding applies to field horses, not some finess of show ring expectations.
Learn what you wish to do with your horse, then simply focus on those that have advise, training methods for those activities. However, don't be so narrow minded, that you then consider there is nothing more to learn, from others, when you wish to do something besides ride down a trail, and that somehow those interests are some sort of 'perversion' from the 'holy Grail' of true horsemanship
The Vaquero tradition which created a very educated 'Bridle horse', served a purpose as on how those hroses were used, not in battle, but to work vast herds of cattle


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Come on BSMS, are you going to ride down some of those drop offs pictured? Anyone else here? I;m not riding off to war, where I MUST go, no matter how steep that drop off, nor do I intend to do a Snowy River ride. Let me know when you do.
How about posting actual examples of you and your horses going up and down steep trails?
I do think, if I can pole bend at speed, I can also zig around cactus!


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Smilie said:


> Come on BSMS,* are you going to ride down some of those drop offs pictured? Anyone else here?* I;m not riding off to war, where I MUST go, no matter how steep that drop off, nor do I intend to do a Snowy River ride. Let me know when you do.
> How about posting actual examples of you and your horses going up and down steep trails?
> I do think, if I can pole bend at speed, I can also zig around cactus!


I have, and likely will again, on occasion. When some nasty bunch-quitter (cow who so strongly objects to being gathered that she leaves the herd and gives others the same idea) threatens to lead others astray. 

I make no apology for not having a photographer along. :smile:


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

This is probably the most conventional way that riders negotiate the Hickstead Bank - Marion Mould on the amazing 14.2 Stroller in 1967. 
There are variations with riders leaning slightly more forwards or more back but more extreme versions tend to result in wrecks
There's a jump on the top of the bank and another soon after you get down it


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

boots said:


> I have, and likely will again, on occasion. When some nasty bunch-quitter (cow who so strongly objects to being gathered that she leaves the herd and gives others the same idea) threatens to lead others astray.
> 
> I make no apology for not having a photographer along. :smile:


I also don;t have actual pictures of tricky climbs, up or down, as am too busy riding at those times. I do carry a camera, thus have pictures of the destinations , more then the pictures of getting there, LOl
Thus no pictures of actual places like Cougar rock, where every endurance rider ever to ride the Tevis Cup has had a picture taken, but people familiar with our mountain areas, know how difficult it is to get to where some of those final pictures are taken-places you can stop and get that camera out, finally, LOL!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> This is probably the most conventional way that riders negotiate the Hickstead Bank - Marion Mould on the amazing 14.2 Stroller in 1967.
> There are variations with riders leaning slightly more forwards or more back but more extreme versions tend to result in wrecks
> There's a jump on the top of the bank and another soon after you get down it


 Yes that rider is sitting in balance with the horse and the terrain, feet slightly forward, sitting slightly back, weight in stirrups.
There was never an argument here, on my part anyways, of riding a horse in balance, changing your position to accommodate bother the horse;s ability to move freely, use himself, while staying out of his way
Although the principles remain the same, far as letting a horse do his job, staying out of his way, I a ma also not just talking of relatively short, however steep descents, where you can see bottom, but rather a hour or more, coming off a mountain on a steep trail. You then absolutely must both be able to trust your horse, pitch him slack, stay in balance, but also the ability to pick him up where needed, adjust direction, have a horse that allows you to pause him, even when he is on a very steep angle. Get up too much speed, and you just might not make that curve, on that edge of the drop off, coming off that mountain Certainly don't want to just free slide-and why our horses are shod with borium smeers, esp when those trails become icy and frozen

The entire debate was more around the idea any show event should also just emulate riding out, and that horses trained in various show events like reining, would thus not be able to then be able to adjust to the principles used, just riding out-where ever that may be, given the chance of course, to have experience outside of the arena
Also, when you ride a long, long steep trail, you adjust your position, to stay in balance with the horse, and certainly need the ability to both let the horse go on a loose rein, but also, to be able to pause him, adjust direction, if needed. 
For instance, one trail that we take, is very steep, with a drop off on one side. Half way up, you must be able to pause your horse, turn his front end almost 180, then continue to climb. Were a horse to scramble, just chug on, trying to reach the top-bye,bye!
You can allow a horse to use bounding momentum to get to the top of a relatively short but steep climb.You can also allow a horse to just sit back and slide on a slope with has bottom not too far off. Not quite the same coming off a mountain!
In other words, there is no ;this way or the highway' You ride where you ride, using what works there,using of course, the principle of staying out of the horse;s way, making sure shoulders are as free as possible, where needed, getting off of hind end, where needed to let it dig in where needed.
You can go down a short a steep incline fast,, but need to go down along, long steep incline, coming off a mountain, with a great deal of ability to rate that decent, to be able to change direction, and even slow that decent


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Interesting side note, the Nez Perce Indians, did out run and out maneuver those army horses for months in the Bitter Root mountains, even with women and children along, and in foal mares
In fact, after their defeat, as the army finally caught up with them, with Chief +Joseph believing they had crossed into Canada, the US army destroyed most of the Appaloosas, and any left, given to stellers, had to be bred to drafts, because they had so badly out maneuvered those grain fed army horses
Perhaps Caprilli could have taken some field lessons from Chief Joseph!
If interested, here is that trail. I drove to Moscow Idaho, and that lo lo pass and surrounding mounatins are very impressive!

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/npnht/home/?cid=stelprdb5245913


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Thus no pictures of actual places like Cougar rock


If you want to see the Cougar Rock climb, check out 4:41-5:17 and you can see what I saw.







I don't have any pictures of me going down crazy banks because I cannot imagine a circumstance where I would do such a thing. I am not nearly as brave as @boots !


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Thanks for sharing. I must get one of those head cameras!
Nice scenery. Is it always that crowded?


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Nice scenery. Is it always that crowded?


With something like 200 riders on the same trail, it is quite crowded unless you are running in the very front (and they start the race in a unique way, so the average rider will not be anywhere near in the front at the start; starting at the front is for the big names - which I certainly am not!). After the first 20 or so miles it was at least no longer nose-to-tail most of the time, but it was certainly never lonely.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

@phantomhorse13 - I'm scared as can be when go down those cutbanks or into some of those draws, but I hate bunch quitters more!


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## yeswaitnosorry (Jul 9, 2017)

Smilie said:


> ... nor do I intend to do a Snowy River ride. Let me know when you do.


A bit OT but I thought you might like to see the Snowy River ...


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Sports (hobbies?) evolve. Life goes on.

PS - love snowy river <3


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

yeswaitnosorry said:


> A bit OT but I thought you might like to see the Snowy River ...
> 
> View attachment 929522


 Thanks. I was thinking of the ride down the mountain, in the movie, 'the Man form snowy River' !


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## yeswaitnosorry (Jul 9, 2017)

Smilie said:


> Thanks. I was thinking of the ride down the mountain, in the movie, 'the Man form snowy River' !


Yep, it's that river!


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

The Terrible Descent. And what lovely pictures!


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

bsms said:


> That was the early approach, and one I think the Italian Cavalry retained. The US switched to this, which looks like a much better method:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When I was in the First Cavalry Division Horse Platoon at Fort Hood Texas, we did not do anything this drastic. We did, however, do conditioning rides in the training areas of Fort Hood, including in and out of the gullies and washes of central Texas. 

Being largely self taught, my position going down was similar to the Italian style. On my first ride out, The platoon sergeant, none too kindly, yelled "Get off of that horses' kidneys!" I've since modified my position to more resemble the eventing photo that Jaydee posted. Though my feet are more forward.

At one point we had an officer who had some formal equestrian training. Our drill and demonstrations were taken from the 1870's cavalry manuals. This officer, also studied the early 20th century manuals and attempted to get our riders into a forward seat. We were largely made up of self taught cowboy types, and the guys resisted this officers "sissy" style of riding. I found some of it helpful in things like "running at the heads", skewering straw stuffed bags mounted at different heights with the saber.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

The first real trail ride I'd ever gone on was here: TravelOK.com - Oklahoma's Official Travel & Tourism Site

There are pictures representative of the area, but on the advice of a long time friend of mine, who's experience on horses is about 30 years ahead of mine, if not more, recommended we take Trail Whatever it Was when we got to the main camping area. We did. It wasn't for horses, but hikers.

It was way, way above my experience level.

The downward side angled down sharply to the lake, the trail was rocky and frankly, scary on the wrong horse. Best advice I got was to put my heels down, lean back just enough to stay balanced, hang on to the Cheyenne roll with one hand, let Gina have her head, stay out of her way. 

I'd like to think I looked more like the eventing picture than that first Italian dude. LOL

Probably not.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

Except when trying to give a horse specific guidance, I think the best thing to do is not interfere with its movement. Sit balanced above the horse's center of gravity and move with the horse's movements. Riding that way allows the horse the best opportunity to move like it would without a rider. Of course, a horse would seldom go down a steep slope like some of the illustrations show if it had another choice.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Basically, you learn by doing, and no text is going to do that for you!
That balance with the hrose, becomes natural, just like any other aspect of riding.I don't need to think, 'heels down', as that has become natural for me.
Ditto for staying in balance with a hrose, letting him do his job, whether on the flat, or on hills..


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Smilie said:


> from this article, that I agree with"
> 'I would suggest that leaning forward is not good. Puts too much weight on your horse's front end and making it likely that you come over his head if he stumbles. My body position going downhill is to lean back keeping my body relative to the sky as I am when I am riding on flat level ground. You'll end up putting a little weight in the stirrups with your heels down. Some riders may straighten their legs and some like me will like just a little bend in their knees.
> 
> I am one of those that straightens their leg, while putting weight in the stirrups, going down a steep hill
> ...


Just out of curiosity, I edited two of the pictures to keep the horses' backs as close to horizontal as possible; here's what I got: 









..and then...









Just interesting.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Not sure what those edits are supposed to show??????????
That bottom picture in particular, makes me cringe, no matter if edited or not

Perhaps, I was un clear, as to what I meant, as you quoted my post for those edits!

I will thus paste the info from Julie Goodnight's into on rider position and hills, to clarify:

'Step #1: Refine Your Hill-Riding Position
You've probably heard that you should lean forward as you head uphill and lean back as you ride down. While that teaching isn't wrong, it's overly simplistic. It's important to refine your position to help your horse stay balanced on hills.

You actually need to stay in an upright position as the level of your horse's back changes with the hill's slope. Imagine a tree trunk growing on the side of a steep hill. The tree trunk doesn't lean; it grows perpendicularly from the horizon, straight to the sky, even though the slope of the ground changes.

Similarly, as you ride your horse up and down hills, your torso should remain vertical and match the tree trunks. With this position, you'll stay upright and centered on your horse.

When you ride on flat ground and strive for a balanced position, you keep a straight line through your ear, shoulder, hip, and heel. On the flat, this line is vertical (or perpendicular to the ground).

When you ride up a hill, keep this perfect-posture alignment, but change your placement in the saddle. Keep the line from your ear to heel perpendicular to the horizon instead of matching your alignment to your saddle's tilted position.

As you ride up a hill, position yourself so that the line from your ear to heel cants forward. Move your lower leg slightly back, and move your head and shoulders slightly in front of the saddle; move as little or as much as needed to match the steepness of the hill while maintaining the straight line and keeping your balance.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Well, Smilie, I am not surprised that you are puzzled. That was a Premature Post. I quoted your page because I wanted to re-read it while I edited the pictures, and I meant to delete it before posting the shots. 

Usually, if I want to do that, I open two forum pages, but I was also working on taxes, and so took the lazy way of doing things and put your post in the box so I could re-read it as I wrote. And I really had no point with the edits: just interested in how balanced the rider in the top picture appears, no matter what the pitch of the slope, and how braced the rider in the second photo looks, no matter what the angle.....

Then DH came hope from lobstering early (weather), wanted help on the boat, so I closed the computer and sent the reply in its incomplete state, without realizing it.

I have heard so many different ideas on riding hills that I am quite interested in this thread. Going down always seems to be just natural, but climbing... I am never quite sure how to best help the horse.

But anyway, I had no point to make by connecting the edited photos to your post. I just wanted to re-read your post while working on the photos, and the two came together in a posting collision.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Lean forward, hang on, and hope for the best?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Smilie said:


> Basically, you learn by doing, and no text is going to do that for you!
> That balance with the hrose, becomes natural, just like any other aspect of riding.I don't need to think, 'heels down', as that has become natural for me.
> Ditto for staying in balance with a hrose, letting him do his job, whether on the flat, or on hills..


Yup...


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Captain Evil said:


> Well, Smilie, I am not surprised that you are puzzled. That was a Premature Post. I quoted your page because I wanted to re-read it while I edited the pictures, and I meant to delete it before posting the shots.
> 
> Usually, if I want to do that, I open two forum pages, but I was also working on taxes, and so took the lazy way of doing things and put your post in the box so I could re-read it as I wrote. And I really had no point with the edits: just interested in how balanced the rider in the top picture appears, no matter what the pitch of the slope, and how braced the rider in the second photo looks, no matter what the angle.....
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the clarification, and my God, just send me some lobsters!
I swear I have not eaten a decent lobster since moving from Ontario, and when I lived in Niagara Falls, thus went to Buffalo NY at times to eat. Those were HUGE lobsters. All we get out here, are tails that provide about two bites, LOL
Can you tell I love sea food, esp crab and lobster!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Lean forward, hang on, and hope for the best?


 Naw, that can become suicidal!. Let the horse do his job, ,thus, yes, get off his rear end going up a steep climb, give him loose rein, BUT also, be able to take up slack, direct that climb, keep a horse from rushing where it is dangerous to do so, and in other words, just as in all horse riding, let the horse do his job and trust him, but also have the ability to over rule his judgement, when needed.
You can get away on a relatively short climb or decent, just hanging on, trying to stay in balance and let th ehorse take charge, as to speed ect.
On a long climb, with switch backs, big drop offs, you need to be able to ask that horse to dig in, not rush, pause to air up, where an area of ground allows that, stand there not fidget, , then continue on when you indicate, also, pause, perhaps do a 180, and then continue to climb, versus just trying to barge ahead.
There are trails I just won't ride,unless I have a horse with that level of training and experience


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Lean forward, hang on, and hope for the best?



You forgot 'shut your eyes' and 'pray to God'


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> You forgot 'shut your eyes' and 'pray to God'


Or Deity, personal small God, or other totem of choice!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

It is all very well quoting from old books, times change and although Caprilli was the innovator of the forward seat over a fence, nothing else he was doing was new. 

As for the Man from Snowy River - the descent look at it closely. There is absolutely no way that a horse galloping down such a steep inclines would be moving as this horse did, a horse would be sat on his hocks. Trick photography, the ground was fairly flat, they cut the trees and angled the, to give the impression of a far steeper slope.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I grew up riding on hills, not mountains but steep enough! 

The ponies would traverse when charging down loose but if we were in a daring frame of mind and decided to ride them down without even a halter and bareback, they would go straight. We would lean back, mane in one hand and the other braced against their withers. They would only go as fast as they could manage. 

Although not trained, those ponies could do a fantastic sliding stop or roll back when they came to the gate!


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