# Broke vs. Gentle



## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

agreed^^^ fully on that!!


----------



## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

It does seem to be the one that we least expect. Nice points.

You have to catch client's horses?


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Well, I'll help you out and make it more interesting...:lol:

I completely disagree with that philosophy. You need to exercise a degree of care, follow some basic saftey procedures, and keep your head out of your butt around ALL horses, be they "wild" or "gentle". Withthe wildish ones you need to exercise more caution over and above what you would with more gentle ones. In the examples you gave, they are all due to stupidity on the part of the owner - they have nothing to do with the disposition of the horse. You don't walk into a pasture with a bucket of grain without watching ALL the horses...that's why we have those little eyes in the back of our head...:rofl:


----------



## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

AmazinCaucasian said:


> I'll take a broke horse over a gentle horse any day. A broke horse has had a proper foundation. A broke horse respect a person's space and will run around you instead of into you. No matter how scared it is!
> 
> Beware of those horses that've never made a mistake


I don't mind gentle but they've got to be broke too. I have "gentle" horses but they are also "broke" horses that at one point were wily youngsters that made mistakes and understand consequences. Also agree on beware of those that haven't made mistakes, they seem to be the ones that when they do decide to blow, they blow to kingdom come. 

I'm so glad I'm not a farrier, but I do enjoy hearing the stories of those who are. I always look forward to hearing about my farrier's previous day when he comes out. The last one was a new owner with 6 unhandled mini jacks...you can imagine how that went! :lol:


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'll offer as an example my spooky Arabian mare Mia. She is the blood bay I'm on in the picture below, taken about 1.5 years ago:










After 3 years of riding her, with multiple bolts, spins, and odd things, we reached a point last March where I had to jump off her. In 2 hours of riding, I simply could not get her to stand still. She would slow to a walk, but would not stop. In addition, she is the only horse I've ever met who considers a dismount as the most scary part of any ride. It isn't me, either - folks with 40 years of riding have found that getting off is where she is most likely to freak. My hip is still sore from landing on a rock after one of those dismount/bolts, and that was nearly 4 years ago. :shock:

After 8 months of not riding her (while I concentrated on learning to ride better), she started training in November with a professional who has trained a couple of our other horses. After 3 weeks, the trainer told me I might have to accept the idea that some horses had issues that wouldn't respond to training...:-(

The next day, however, something caught the trainer's eye. It looked to me like Mia was acting like a lunatic, but it proved to be a break-though. At the end, the trainer told me that the mare I was sold as being "great for a beginner", and that I had ridden with varying success for 3+ years, wasn't broke.

The trainer said, "She is a gentle horse by nature, and the two of you have gotten along with as little pain as you have because she obviously likes you, and you like her, and you both try to take care of each other. But she has no clue about anything a broke horse would know. She knows nothing about yielding to pressure. She hasn't got a clue about what a bit is for. She responds to MOST things because she tries to figure out what you want and do it - but if she gets confused, she has no knowledge to fall back on. So she panics. To make matters worse, she TRIES to take care of you, rather than expect you to take care of HER. So she is a gentle, good-natured but unbroke 12 year old horse. Breaking her isn't impossible, but it won't happen quickly, either!"

And it hasn't. Still, today was a red letter day. After 2 more months of training, I rode her today for about 5 minutes. At a walk. She was nervous about the dismount, so I worked on some bit cues with her until she softened, then did a slow motion dismount.

Not much to boast about, in some ways. But she was turning off of seat & leg cues, and seemed to understand what was going on.

In addition, I walked her on a lead rope the half mile around our block by herself today - the first time in 4+ years of ownership that she did that, without other horses, and did so calmly the entire way. In fact, we later made a second trip, and included a side diversion into the desert. But she stayed relaxed, so I let her eat a little grass growing in a small hollow, then we returned.

Mia has always been a gentle horse. I have never seen her act mean to any human at any time. Scared, maybe, but there isn't an ounce of meanness in her body. But she wasn't broke, and that made her a danger to herself and others.

She is still a LONG way from broke. She couldn't even be described a 'green-broke' yet! Giving up her fears, and giving up control, and letting the human worry about everything and make decisions for her - that has been very hard for her. But for anyone who knows her, the difference is like night & day. And she is a slow learner, but once she learns, she LEARNS.

In a way, her very gentleness made her dangerous. She could FAKE being a horse a beginner could ride because she never meant any harm. But without the training & understanding, it was easy to put her in a place where all she had left was fear. A less gentle horse would have made the 'unbrokenness' obvious from the get-go. Like AmazinCaucasian suggested, a gentle nature without being broken can be dangerous!


----------



## Newby32 (Dec 4, 2011)

bsms- That is an amazing story! Call me sappy, but it kind of brought tears to my eyes about how hard she was trying for you.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

BTW - my wife was talking to some of our neighbors this week. They asked her where her husband found the 1000 lb dog he walks all the time...


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

LOL, my neighbor's former mare (Taz's momma) was a nice, "gentle" horse. She was always very careful to step right in the middle of you and mow you down if you happened to be in the way of the direction she wanted to go. She was also careful to blister _both_ hands with the lead rope whenever she decided she'd had enough of being around you. She didn't respond at all to _any_ kind of pressure, no matter how soft or painful the pressure was, she would just ignore it and go on :?.

I hated that **** mare with every fiber of my being.

I have a fairly large scar on my head from another mare similar to her that I took in for training. She was 10-12 years old and "gentle" :roll:. Did everything just so and didn't see any signs at all of a problem when I cinched her up one day (not the first time either). Anyway, I asked her to move away from me around the pen to warm her up before I got on....and she blew up bigger than most rodeo broncs I've seen.

What was the first thing that she did? Headed right toward me with her head down between her knees and just kept coming even when I was beating her with a lead rope trying to get her away from me. All the while, I was trying to get the heck out of the way, but I am notoriously clumsy on my own feet. She shouldered into me, knocked me down, and I bounced my forehead off the fence hard enough to cut it all the way to the bone.

I also prefer those horses with a healthy respect for people. You know, those horses that will crash a fence before running anywhere even close to a human.

That is one reason why I prefer to start horses that are older and haven't been handled much. I've found that the horses that have been handled from day 1 don't seem to have the same respect as ones that are slightly scared of people to start with.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

It's those gentle ones that will bolt on the trail because they are zoned out and not paying mind. For twenty years I rode a horse that was always alert and at first I tho't he was preparing to bolt. In those 20 years the closest he came to bolting was a fast step sideways when a bird in the deep grass suddenly flew up under his jaw. I was bareback and as soon as he felt me losing my seat he did his best to get back under me.


----------



## xXSerendipityXx (Jan 26, 2012)

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> I don't mind gentle but they've got to be broke too. I have "gentle" horses but they are also "broke" horses that at one point were wily youngsters that made mistakes and understand consequences. Also agree on beware of those that haven't made mistakes, they seem to be the ones that when they do decide to blow, they blow to kingdom come.
> 
> I'm so glad I'm not a farrier, but I do enjoy hearing the stories of those who are. I always look forward to hearing about my farrier's previous day when he comes out. The last one was a new owner with 6 unhandled mini jacks...you can imagine how that went! :lol:


The best horse is one that is gentle AND broke. :lol::wink:


----------



## AQHSam (Nov 23, 2011)

xXSerendipityXx said:


> The best horse is one that is gentle AND broke. :lol::wink:


You forgot to add tired. A tired horse is a good horse.

:lol:


----------



## xXSerendipityXx (Jan 26, 2012)

AQHSam said:


> You forgot to add tired. A tired horse is a good horse.
> 
> :lol:


LOL. That too! I dont know where I would be without lunge lines:lol:


----------



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

xXSerendipityXx said:


> The best horse is one that is gentle AND broke. :lol::wink:



Agree.

Gentle refers to temperament.

Broke refers to training 

They are not interchangeable but put the two together then they can be worth their weight in gold.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I often hear people saying "My horse is gentle". So what does it mean? I'd think the horse is well-behaving, or not-so-well behaving. 

P.S. If I'd be a farrier I probably wouldn't trust much how owner defines the horse, at least not until the 2nd or 3rd visit. :rofl:

P.P.S. AC, if you'd live closer I'd use you! Farrier brings horses in to do the job! Wow! I always get them and clean them (from top to the bottom) myself just before the farrier comes.


----------



## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> I often hear people saying "My horse is gentle". So what does it mean? I'd think the horse is well-behaving, or not-so-well behaving.
> 
> P.S. If I'd be a farrier I probably wouldn't trust much how owner defines the horse, at least not until the 2nd or 3rd visit. :rofl:
> 
> P.P.S. AC, if you'd live closer I'd use you! Farrier brings horses in to do the job! Wow!* I always get them and clean them (from top to the bottom) myself just before the farrier comes.*


*

*As do I KV. And I do not expect my farrier to deal with any gaps in manners or training. That is my job to get the horses prepared , physically and mentally for his visit. My farrier doesn't need to be put out of commission because "fluffy" doesn't have the manners or training to stand and behave.


----------



## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> I often hear people saying "My horse is gentle". So what does it mean? I'd think the horse is well-behaving, or not-so-well behaving.
> 
> Yes. And some places, if you can get close enough to them to snap a picture, they call em gentle.
> 
> ...


 
Yes I do catch alot of horses. Although I pretend to be a hard a$$ and I like to push people's buttons on here, I'm kind of a softie when it comes to demanding anything from my customers. I just go at it on my own and watch out for myself. 

I guess having to catch people's horses has made me a little more well-rounded as a horseman. Having to figure out what approach works best on different ones and all.


----------



## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

smrobs said:


> I also prefer those horses with a healthy respect for people. You know, those horses that will crash a fence before running anywhere even close to a human.
> 
> That is one reason why I prefer to start horses that are older and haven't been handled much. I've found that the horses that have been handled from day 1 don't seem to have the same respect as ones that are slightly scared of people to start with.


I'm the same way, I'd rather pet my way through a scared one.

The worst are the imprint trained ones


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

AmazinCaucasian said:


> The worst are the imprint trained ones


Absolutely not true. A properly imprinted horse is far more trustworthy than one that is not.

It would be more accurate for you to say "The worst are the poorly imprinted ones". Probably 90% or more of the people that imprint are clueless - no surprise there. But as I said, a properly imprinted horse is a pleasure to work with...


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

AmazinCaucasian said:


> Yes I do catch alot of horses. Although I pretend to be a hard a$$ and I like to push people's buttons on here, I'm kind of a softie when it comes to demanding anything from my customers. I just go at it on my own and watch out for myself.


I'm pretty sure my farrier would do it too. :wink: But I think it's unfair on my side as a customer to let him do part of work I as an owner must do. I'm also the one who disciplines if needed (as my qh intentionally pulls the cr*p for other people sometime like refusing to hold the foot, or happily throwing the weight on poor farrier for her own comfort, so the smack on neck with firm "stop it" reminds her to behave). 

(going OT) it's interesting that my paint kinda afraid to pick her hind feet above the certain height for the farrier. As soon as it's too high she starts panicking and looses her balance (and it doesn't look like misbehaving, because once or twice she fell on him), so he has to work on her closer to the ground (not very close, but not as far off the ground as he could since she has longish legs).


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

AmazinCaucasian said:


> The worst are the imprint trained ones


Spoiled like a hell you mean?


----------



## mysticalhorse (Apr 27, 2011)

As I have recently come to the conclusion that my 14yr old mare Mea has many holes in her training.... she would be classifieds as a gentle horse not broke. But she does have respect for people & will go away from instead of plow into, thankfully. I took her out yesterday to do a simple sack out with the lead rope, it went well after she calmed down & an hour later I did it again with a slight eye flinch instead of a full body run away. 
She learns quickly & is great under saddle but she has many holes in her training. So I am going to go through the whole thing with her & round her out. 
Also she is terrified of having her feet done by a farrier but taking it small steps at a time she is coming around. I work closely with my farrier with both of my horses & it is truly becoming a great experience for everyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

xXSerendipityXx said:


> LOL. That too! I dont know where I would be without lunge lines:lol:


You'd have better horses and be a better horseman!


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

kitten_Val said:


> Spoiled like a hell you mean?


I will say once again, that a well imprinted horse is well behaved - and certainly not spoiled. 

I have no idea what you are basing your judgment upon, unless it is based upon results you have encountered of people trying to imprint that don't have any idea what they are doing - which admittedly is most people. But to make a generalized statement about imprinting is no different than making a generalized statement that ANY kind of training sucks. Some people train well, others train poorly - no matter what the method, be it imprinting, NH, CA, PP, or whatever.

I have raised and imprinted well over 100 foals. The results? Never a buck - ever - even when backing for the first time, never a bite - ever, never a kick - ever, they stand well for the farrier, don't even have to be haltered for shots or drawing blood. They are easily trainable, cooperative, and certainly aren't spoiled, and I don't have to chase them all over the pasture to "catch" them. They come when they are called, and if you drape a loose leadrope over their neck, they submit and follow wherever you walk.

That's not to say you have to imprint to have a well trained horse, nor is it to say horses that are not imprinted are always difficult. But sound imprinting by someone that knows what they are doing can be a first step in a sound overall training program. While it is true that most people can screw up any training method and do as much harm as good, that is no reason to generalize that a training method is not sound. The mistake most people make is to approach imprinting as if it in and of itself were training. Imprinting is not training as such...it is preparation for training - laying a foundation for subsequent training, making that subsequent training easier, faster, and more permanent. Quite honestly, preparation for training, building the proper mental attitude and trust, is 90% of the battle, yet oddly enough, many people try - mostly unsuccessfully - to skip the meat and potatoes and go straight to the desert...

***gets down off soapbox and hollers "yeeee-haaaw"***


----------



## xXSerendipityXx (Jan 26, 2012)

kevinshorses said:


> You'd have better horses and be a better horseman!


Uhhm, not sure what you mean by that. I ride a 6 year old arabian. To put it shorty, he's CRAZY. Unless lunged for about half an hour every morning, that is. I'm not gonna chance being bucked off AGAIN:lol:


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

^ I have to say I actually agree with Kevin on this one. I don't agree with Kevin on much!

But lunging before you ride just ends up with your horse getting fitter and fitter and therefore having MORE energy and having to be lunged for longer and longer to become manageable. I would say work on training, if he bucks he's obviously not been trained properly and/or his tack doesn't fit.

And my anglo-arab is crazy too so I know what you mean! But I absolutely NEVER lunge before I ride. EVER.

...that being said, some horses are cold backed (I have a friend who has this problem) and for THOSE horses, it's not the lunging so much as the time with the saddle on that settles them. You can't train a horse out of being cold backed, it's something that has to be managed - BUT it's also something that CAN be caused by saddle fit and if it hasn't yet become a habit, can be alleviated by making sure the saddle actually DOES fit.

edit; your horse is not crazy because he's an arab. Arabs are actually really quiet given the right handlers! I have a friend who breeds them, and I can honestly say I have NEVER met quieter horses. Even their stallion is 99.999% reliable. They have a LOT of experience handling Arabs so they sure know how to handle them. My advice is to find a trainer who will help you through your horse's issues - and/or look at the possibility your horse may be cold backed.


----------



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

blue eyed pony said:


> But lunging before you ride just ends up with your horse getting fitter and fitter and therefore having MORE energy and having to be lunged for longer and longer to become manageable.



Have to disagree to a point.


For those who lunge just to get the spunk out of a horse I agree. Those of us who lunge for a purpose other than that, the results are entirely different. I lunge to get the horse's mindset ready for work. For his attention to me and since my lunge work includes in hand work then it is not to make him so fit that they become unmanageable...but in fact more manageable and better trained and build up strength to do a higher level performance.. 




> ...that being said, some horses are cold backed (I have a friend who has this problem) and for THOSE horses, it's not the lunging so much as the time with the saddle on that settles them. You can't train a horse out of being cold backed, it's something that has to be managed - BUT it's also something that CAN be caused by saddle fit and if it hasn't yet become a habit, can be alleviated by making sure the saddle actually DOES fit.


Here again I agree only somewhat.

My horse is cold backed and in saddle work has helped ..only after the back has been warmed up by lunging. Mine doesn't buck in the saddle but rears and lunging has (besides the training part) has made the in saddle work done after manageable and workable.


----------



## xXSerendipityXx (Jan 26, 2012)

blue eyed pony said:


> ^ I have to say I actually agree with Kevin on this one. I don't agree with Kevin on much!
> 
> But lunging before you ride just ends up with your horse getting fitter and fitter and therefore having MORE energy and having to be lunged for longer and longer to become manageable. I would say work on training, if he bucks he's obviously not been trained properly and/or his tack doesn't fit.
> 
> ...


Jay R isn't mine, although I would love it if he were. I just work at the barn when I can &do what the owner asks me to. Hmm, I've never looked at it that way - that he would just get stronger and such. We lunge him to get him ready for work each day. &Yes, he is a little cold backed - but even if we're not going to ride him in the morning, we still lunge him, so he'll be ready-ish for later. We'll lunge him maybe around eight in the morning most days, &then a little after lunch, lunge him again but with the saddle on - &THEN we ride It seems like the only way to deal with him freaking out every time we put a saddle on him. At my barn we do this with all the horses who are cold backed. He's just a baby


----------



## xXSerendipityXx (Jan 26, 2012)

Spyder said:


> Those of us who lunge for a purpose other than that, the results are entirely different. I lunge to get the horse's mindset ready for work. For his attention to me and since my lunge work includes in hand work then it is not to make him so fit that they become unmanageable...but in fact more manageable and better trained and build up strength to do a higher level performance..
> 
> My horse is cold backed and in saddle work has helped ..only after the back has been warmed up by lunging. Mine doesn't buck in the saddle but rears and lunging has (besides the training part) has made the in saddle work done after manageable and workable.


Mindset ready for work - That's what I was sorta trying to say:lol:
&Yes, in saddle lunging right before you ride is a must if you want to stay on Jay R for more than a few seconds


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

^ then I personally wouldn't put much faith in the BO to be honest! JME but when I did lunge before riding my horse at the time just got worse and worse and worse over time. And again JMO but lunging a horse too much isn't good for them, and 1/2 an hour is a LOT. Mine only ever get lunged for 10 minutes at a time, and usually only if I'm not riding.

If you ride in the afternoon lunging them in the morning is doing nothing other than getting them fitter. They've had plenty of time to rest.

JMO again - but no, a horse that is cold backed can't be completely trained out of it, though it CAN be decreased. You'll always have at least a small amount of managing to do, once it's become force of habit. Even if it's just 5 minutes more time in walk in your warmup.

A high-energy horse should be matched with a person who can manage that energy - or even better, a person who LIKES it - rather than a person who will try to work the energy out of the animal. JMO but if you (anybody - I'm speaking generally here) feel like you HAVE to tire your horse out before you ride it, then you shouldn't have that horse, or you should learn how to manage its energy without having to resort to something that will only make it fitter.

I have NOTHING against lunging to get them into a "work" mindset, I do it myself at times - but usually when Monty's being a fruitloop under saddle and I need to let him get the kinks out of his system without worrying about my own safety... I have confidence issues so I really don't need to be thrown because he's being an idiot! Much rather get off and make him work without putting myself at risk.

I don't personally HAVE a cold backed horse but a while ago I was looking at one so I did a lot of research into what would be required and if it could be fixed... of course that research was done on a website that's based in my state and Western Australia isn't known as Wait Awhile for nothing!

edit; a few seconds? I don't call that MILDLY cold-backed! Mild is humping around and crow-hopping a bit. Being ditched after a few seconds in the saddle is closer to what I would call severe.


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

xXSerendipityXx said:


> Uhhm, not sure what you mean by that. I ride a 6 year old arabian. To put it shorty, he's CRAZY. Unless lunged for about half an hour every morning, that is. I'm not gonna chance being bucked off AGAIN:lol:


What I meant by that is if you weren't letting your horse run circles around you for a half an hour before each ride you would have to figure out a way to solve whatever problems your horse is having. Thereby becoming a better horseman. 

I've ridden many many horses and I have come to the conclusion that if you want to get a horse good to ride it's best to ride the horse. I sometimes will move a young horse around on the lead rope for a minute or two before I get on but I rarely let them trot and I never let them go all the way around me in a circle.


----------



## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

Faceman said:


> Absolutely not true. A properly imprinted horse is far more trustworthy than one that is not.
> 
> It would be more accurate for you to say "The worst are the poorly imprinted ones". Probably 90% or more of the people that imprint are clueless - no surprise there. But as I said, a properly imprinted horse is a pleasure to work with...


. 

Maybe you're right. But In 16 years of farrier work, so far I haven't ran across any properly imprinted horses yet. 

I'm no mathmetician, but I think you just admitted that 9 out of 10 imprinted horses are bad


----------



## xXSerendipityXx (Jan 26, 2012)

blue eyed pony said:


> ^ then I personally wouldn't put much faith in the BO to be honest! JME but when I did lunge before riding my horse at the time just got worse and worse and worse over time. And again JMO but lunging a horse too much isn't good for them, and 1/2 an hour is a LOT. Mine only ever get lunged for 10 minutes at a time, and usually only if I'm not riding.
> 
> If you ride in the afternoon lunging them in the morning is doing nothing other than getting them fitter. They've had plenty of time to rest.
> 
> ...


Eh, everybody's hating on me..
I've never questioned what they had me do before..But now..*Sigh


----------



## xXSerendipityXx (Jan 26, 2012)

kevinshorses said:


> What I meant by that is if you weren't letting your horse run circles around you for a half an hour before each ride you would have to figure out a way to solve whatever problems your horse is having. Thereby becoming a better horseman.
> 
> I've ridden many many horses and I have come to the conclusion that if you want to get a horse good to ride it's best to ride the horse. I sometimes will move a young horse around on the lead rope for a minute or two before I get on but I rarely let them trot and I never let them go all the way around me in a circle.


oh....


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Not hating on you, just not understanding your BO's policy. If you're supposed to do it to every high-energy horse (not JUST the cold-backed one) then... idk. I don't see how it would help any. My high-energy part Arab would get sour if I tried to work him twice a day - and that's what lunging is, just another way to work a horse.


----------



## xXSerendipityXx (Jan 26, 2012)

blue eyed pony said:


> Not hating on you, just not understanding your BO's policy. If you're supposed to do it to every high-energy horse (not JUST the cold-backed one) then... idk. I don't see how it would help any. My high-energy part Arab would get sour if I tried to work him twice a day - and that's what lunging is, just another way to work a horse.


Maybe we just do it differently in the US or something


----------



## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> Spoiled like a hell you mean?


Yes precisely. Faceman agrees too, he just doesn't know it yet


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I very rarely will "gyp" a horse around. If he hadn't been ridden for months and acts like humping around I will. However I do not do the endless amount of circles one way, and then endless circles the other way. That is pointless. Changing directions often so he is listening to you to see whats coming next is faster and more effective. Also a horse will more likely buck, if you are trying to work the buck out, when he has to set down and swap directions.


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

xXSerendipityXx said:


> Maybe we just do it differently in the US or something


That's funny... because the person I learned it from was actually trained in the US by some of the country's best horsemen! There are as many different ways of handling horses as there are horse and handler combinations and there's no one right answer. I've just found that some things work for one individual animal and then some handlers are like, "OMG it worked it must be magic it must be implemented straight away with every other horse I have anything to do with"... when really it may not be THAT great of a training method, but it worked for that one horse for whatever reason.

I don't know your BO but I have a feeling that's the reasoning... hey, it settles them down just a bit, I can put a lower level of rider on them and so I don't have to spend as much on my horses getting safe horses for every level of rider!

...wouldn't work for my horse I can tell you now! He is a fruitloop whether he's exhausted or not. But I love him


----------



## xXSerendipityXx (Jan 26, 2012)

blue eyed pony said:


> That's funny... because the person I learned it from was actually trained in the US by some of the country's best horsemen! There are as many different ways of handling horses as there are horse and handler combinations and there's no one right answer. I've just found that some things work for one individual animal and then some handlers are like, "OMG it worked it must be magic it must be implemented straight away with every other horse I have anything to do with"... when really it may not be THAT great of a training method, but it worked for that one horse for whatever reason.
> 
> I don't know your BO but I have a feeling that's the reasoning... hey, it settles them down just a bit, I can put a lower level of rider on them and so I don't have to spend as much on my horses getting safe horses for every level of rider!
> 
> ...wouldn't work for my horse I can tell you now! He is a fruitloop whether he's exhausted or not.


LOL. Fruitloop:lol: I'll have to use that sometime
What we're doing seems to work on our horses, but maybe it's just an exception
Everyone has their own way of doing things<3


----------



## Kawonu (Apr 24, 2011)

This just sounds to me like a horse too trusted because he's handled like a puppy rather than a horse. Yes, I did it with my old mare and a couple of pathetic mistakes were made (one is when she followed me into the tack room for treats) but all in all, it's how you handle things. I'd rather be around a horse with discipline. A horse ain't gotta be broke down to be properly trained. And gentle just means, "Usually okay, but only if you pay attention." Just because they're sweet, a lot of them get away with things. And that's why they'll run you over when you're not watching. Because they know they can because they're "gentle."


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Faceman said:


> I will say once again, that a well imprinted horse is well behaved - and certainly not spoiled.
> 
> I have no idea what you are basing your judgment upon, unless it is based upon results you have encountered of people trying to imprint that don't have any idea what they are doing - which admittedly is most people.


Actually I was not judging a bit. I was just asking if that's what AC meant when he complained about imprinted ones. 

I don't think "imprinting" has anything to do with the horse's manners. I've seen plenty of horses being rude and pushy without any imprinting. But many people I've met (and I believe that's what AC probably meant) "imprint" by treating a horse like a pet or human baby, and later on allow the foal to get away with all kinds or bad habits like nipping, kicking at you, etc (just because it's so-o-o-o-o cute). Which is clearly wrong.


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

xXSerendipityXx said:


> LOL. Fruitloop:lol: I'll have to use that sometime
> What we're doing seems to work on our horses, but maybe it's just an exception
> Everyone has their own way of doing things<3


I'd be curious to see what would happen if you didn't lunge them one morning. Lunging them in the morning when they're not going to be ridden for hours yet doesn't seem like it would really do that much.

Perhaps on a day they're not being used for lessons etc? You don't have to, I'm just curious and trying to satisfy my need for logic (Asperger's brain, I like logic).

Yes different things absolutely work for different horses, I know it would make no difference at all to Monty but to the horses at your barn... obviously it does something, right? Are they kept in stalls or turned out? Monty's on 24/7 turnout so it's not like he needs extra exercise.

...do you have fruitloops in the US? it's a popular breakfast cereal here and I guess it's become slang for a silly person because, y'know, loop=loopy... They also MAKE people loopy with all that sugar and artificial rubbish!


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Oh, we have fruitloops in the US. Plenty of them, both cereal and animal varieties :lol:.

Another question about that particular horse, Serendipity, how are his living arrangements? Is he stalled? Does he have any turnout at all?


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

AmazinCaucasian said:


> .
> 
> Maybe you're right. But In 16 years of farrier work, so far I haven't ran across any properly imprinted horses yet.
> 
> I'm no mathmetician, but I think you just admitted that 9 out of 10 imprinted horses are bad


Your math is fine. My only point was it's not imprinting that messes up horses, it's people that imprint poorly. The same can be said about any training method. With the obvious occasional exception, horses aren't born screwed up - people screw them up. Every yahoo that can cough up $15 for a CD thinks they are a trainer...or farrier for that matter...I'm sure you have seen your share of people that have screwed up their horses' hooves - that doesn't mean all farrier work is bad...


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

So we're all in agreement....

Stupid people are stupid :lol:.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

smrobs said:


> So we're all in agreement....
> 
> Stupid people are stupid :lol:.


Yeah, and what's worse is...they multiply...:shock:


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> What I meant by that is if you weren't letting your horse run circles around you for a half an hour before each ride you would have to figure out a way to solve whatever problems your horse is having. Thereby becoming a better horseman.
> 
> I've ridden many many horses and I have come to the conclusion that if you want to get a horse good to ride it's best to ride the horse. I sometimes will move a young horse around on the lead rope for a minute or two before I get on but I rarely let them trot and* I never let them go all the way around me in a circle.*






Why? Why not let them go around in a full circle?


----------



## xXSerendipityXx (Jan 26, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> [/I][/B]
> 
> 
> 
> Why? Why not let them go around in a full circle?


I was wondering that too. Maybe cuz it makes the horse feel like the boss or something.


----------



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Faceman said:


> Yeah, and what's worse is...they multiply...:shock:



Personally I find this offensive and a little imperious.

We all multiply and to think that someone that is bestowed with an intelligence level that may be less than ours as being worse ( and therefore should not have children) gives the person stating it, that only they should decide who can or cannot have offspring.


----------



## Lakotababii (Nov 28, 2010)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think "stupid" is being used to mean intelligence necessarily. We are not talking IQ here, but instead common sense. People who honestly think they can train a horse because they bought a $15 dollar DVD just aren't reasoning straight. It doesn't mean they are not intelligent necessarily, but they need to be taught the proper way, which is why they shouldn't buy the DVD in the first place. 

That type of naive thought, does indeed, seem to spread. They DO "multiply" sometimes. It doesn't mean more people are being born, I believe that refers to the band wagon thing. How many trainers have told people (whether implied or stated outright) that they can be great horse trainers if they use this piece of crap and buy this DVD series? The amount of people who buy that seems to multiply.... 

So maybe I am wrong, but I do not think that was meant to offend. Although you make a good point Spyder, no one has a right to tell someone they cannot have children, nor that they are inferior based on intelligence.


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> [/I][/B]
> 
> 
> 
> Why? Why not let them go around in a full circle?


I don't let them go around in a full circle because they get the idea that they can just run past you. They also don't learn anything by running in endless circles.


----------



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> I don't let them go around in a full circle because they get the idea that they can just run past you. They also don't learn anything by running in endless circles.



One of the reasons I would not round pen.

I would much rather let the horse free in the arena or riding area and let him go where he chooses....then I would lunge.

Lunging is not and should not be about going around in endless circles. If this is the way someone thinks, then they were taught wrong or taught themselves wrong.


----------



## xXSerendipityXx (Jan 26, 2012)

blue eyed pony said:


> I'd be curious to see what would happen if you didn't lunge them one morning. Lunging them in the morning when they're not going to be ridden for hours yet doesn't seem like it would really do that much.
> 
> Perhaps on a day they're not being used for lessons etc? You don't have to, I'm just curious and trying to satisfy my need for logic (Asperger's brain, I like logic).
> 
> ...


Riding Jay R without lunging him first isn't impossible, just pretty dangerous &highly unreccommended, if that's even a word:lol:. &He's never used for lessons, because he's definently not ready yet.. Our horses are all kept in the stall most of the time because we need them closeby for lessons basically everyday. The only times they get out, is if we turn them out in relatively small turnout circles, when they're in a lesson, and when we lunge them. All of these are basically half an hour long an average, &we only do two of them on the same day. So maybe they just have alot more cooped up energy than the horses that the other people here have been thinking. Also, alot of the lesson horses &Jay R have picked up a habit of kicking their stall doors REALLY hard when they want attention. We find that lunging them in the morning keeps the horses in the barn from getting bored &the people in the barn from getting headaches:lol:. On a day that they're not used for a lesson, they're usually lunged &then turned out immediatly to cool down.

Of course we have fruitloops!  When I was a kid they were my favorite breakfast<3 At school we call people with big noses the name of the Tucan on the box - Tucan Sam (is it a Tucan where you live??)I just never thought to call someone a fruitloop. I can't wait for school on Monday..:twisted:


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Spyder said:


> One of the reasons I would not round pen.
> 
> I would much rather let the horse free in the arena or riding area and let him go where he chooses....then I would lunge.
> 
> Lunging is not and should not be about going around in endless circles. If this is the way someone thinks, then they were taught wrong or taught themselves wrong.


I completely agree. I've seen 20 endless circle lungers for every 1 that I've seen that actually has a purpose to the lungeing. The same goes for roundpenning only times 10.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

......


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Spyder said:


> Personally I find this offensive and a little imperious.
> 
> We all multiply and to think that someone that is bestowed with an intelligence level that may be less than ours as being worse ( and therefore should not have children) gives the person stating it, that only they should decide who can or cannot have offspring.


Sorry, but I could care less if you find it offensive or not. I'm not here to please you, and don't intend to take your narrow interpretations into account when making posts.

You might benefit from expanding your perspective a bit. No one said anything about having children. The number of yahoos that don't know which end the poop comes out that think they are trainers after watching a CD or going to a commercial training seminar has exploded in recent years...whether they have children or not is off topic, and rather irrelevant to the issue being discussed...


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> I don't let them go around in a full circle because they get the idea that they can just run past you. They also don't learn anything by running in endless circles.


I used to lunge (may be 10 mins when they were younger), and let them go the full circles, but I did lots of transitions: trot -> walk -> trot -> canter for half-circle -> trot etc. Actually if the lunge line is attached to the bit you want to switch it when you switch the direction (or have to lunge with 2 lines, which is tricky).


----------



## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

How would you exercise a horse that can't be ridden, if not by lunging? Rascal is my pasture puff. He has some serious pelvic, back, and hip issues. He needs exercise for building muscle, conditioning, and strengthening muscles. While we do take a nice long trail walk almost every day, I can't even begin to walk far enough, in the time I have, to build him up enough. (Not to mention my knees won't take jogging so he can be trotted enough.)


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Rascaholic said:


> How would you exercise a horse that can't be ridden, if not by lunging? Rascal is my pasture puff. He has some serious pelvic, back, and hip issues. He needs exercise for building muscle, conditioning, and strengthening muscles. While we do take a nice long trail walk almost every day, I can't even begin to walk far enough, in the time I have, to build him up enough. (Not to mention my knees won't take jogging so he can be trotted enough.)


If you have the money, a hot walker would provide a substantial degree of exercise...


----------



## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

Spyder said:


> One of the reasons I would not round pen.
> 
> I would much rather let the horse free in the arena or riding area and let him go where he chooses....then I would lunge.
> 
> Lunging is not and should not be about going around in endless circles. If this is the way someone thinks, then they were taught wrong or taught themselves wrong.


I guess I was fortunate to have a trainer show me the proper way to round pen. I agree it is not about endless circles. I do many transitions, change of directions (and never in the same place) and want his/her attention on me, period. I've also round penned both horses together and enjoy the fluidity of their movements and the ease in which they respond to my body movements.


----------



## Courtney (May 20, 2011)

My mare is gentle and I trust that her years on the track have desensitized her to a lot of sudden noises and scary objects. However, I never forget that she's a giant creature with a strong flight instinct and I never assume she won't spook. She is one of the calmest, most docile horses I've ever been around but at the same time, I know that the oddest things will spook her and if I'm not watching my surroundings, I could get hurt. I know she's the lowest horse on the totem pole in the field and when I go to take her out, I know the other horses will try to chase her off and sometimes, she will dart toward me. I know this and I prepare before I enter that field. I carry a crop with me just in case another horse starts acting up as I'm trying to halter and lead my mare, just as I'd expect anyone else to do if my mare was being pushy. I know her tendencies and as a result, I'm extra careful with her. I have to work to keep myself from getting too comfortable with her, because then I will get hurt. If I assume her gentle, docile nature will outweigh her flight instinct, I'm just setting myself up for injury.


----------

