# Death by duck poo??



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi, 

One of the horses where I agist went down with diarrhea & colic last week. Bad. Was put down. Vet called it septic diarrhea & said it was either salmonella poisoning(! All other horses were quarrantined, but results came back clear!) or it was from eating grass with duck poo on it.

Now until recently - and locally - I'd never heard of this being a worry at all. I actually disregarded it as not the cause the first time someone told me 6 months back that a horse had died from drinking from a duck infested dam. Apparently the vet has seen 4 cases in the last year...

So, what's the goss?? Is this a general risk that's just rarely a problem, or do you think it's a 'wild guess' because the vet doesn't have a clue... Said horse was a highly(as in big buckets of grain once daily) fed but not well looked after boy, in quite ornary condition. Perhaps he was run down so just very susceptible to the normal bugs that kick around a paddock.

Also occurred to me, I don't see all that many ducks about - the odd couple in the paddock, but we are in a town overrun by Sacred Ibis(some bright spark released a heap some decades back, bred like rabbits!). Considering I've never heard of this elsewhere, I wonder if ibis rather than ducks could be behind it...

Thoughts & experiences anyone?


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## gssw5 (Jul 30, 2013)

Well I have over 50 ducks on my place we raise them for food, they are free range, swim in our water tanks, hang out with the horses and we have never had a problem. We also have a mess of free range chickens. My horses are also pretty much free range, with large paddocks and lots of turn out time.

Without the vet doing a test to check for salmonella in that particular horse it is just having a theory. In my mind it would seem if all the horses are eating the same grass in the same area then they all would be showing salmonella in their stool even if they were not sick.

Additionally I have to wonder about something like salmonella even being a problem in wild birds or free ranging birds because it is more of a problem with confined birds, living in dirty, unhealthy conditions such as factory farms.

Colic is a broad term to explain a belly ache in horses, did the diarrhea cause the colic, or the colic cause the diarrhea kind of thing. Unless the colics can somehow be directly related to anything specific I would not put to much credence in hearsay, about any one thing. My guess is if the horse was not kept well and was poor condition his body just gave out. 

He could have had liver failure, kidney failure, a heavy parasite load, tumors, etc.. which in the end could all present as colic, with an unknown cause.

Just my thoughts.


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

Birds carry salmonella. Probably more so than other species.

Risk of Human Salmonella Infections from Live Baby Poultry | Features | CDC

While a little unusual I wouldn't find it strange at all. When I kept poultry I was constantly making my daughter wash her hands.

I lost my old QH to a severe colic shortly after flooding one year. Vet said it was probably something that came in with the flood waters. None of my other horses were bothered. He was a glutton, may have eaten something the others rejected. Didn't test so I'll never know.

Birds, much like horses try not to show they are sick until they are very sick. I've heard of entire flocks dropping.

http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/publications/field_manual/chapter_9.pdf


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

This is in Australia so we need to keep that in mind. 

Quite honestly if I were you I would call the vet clinic and ASK. Nothing comes up from Google and it may be a different strain of Salmonella.


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

Australia has birds. Birds carry lots of salmonella.

I just linked to credible sources is all. If loosie is in an area with a lot of water birds wandering I'd be doubly suspicious.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

I have chickens and used to have ducks all free range. We also have wild ducks and I know for a fact that my horses drink out of the north pasture slough when the wild ducks are living there and (touch wood) there has never been a problem.

What caught my eye in Loosie's post was the reference to the large quantity of grain the horse was fed. I would think it a likely possibility the grain was contaminated somehow -- maybe from mouse poo or something along that line -- or perhaps the horse reached the point where his system couldn't handle that much grain anymore??


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Don't you have a problem with cane toads that secrete a venom? (Another, unnecessary introduced species?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cane_toads_in_Australia
I, too, keep chickens, although they don't free range, but my horses often come in contact with their manure next to grass without incident. Ducks have a similar diet to chickens.
I'm thinking it's something else.
I am SSOOOO sorry for your loss! **hugs and prayers sent for comfort**


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Salmonellosis (Public Health Concerns for the Farm Family and Staff) | Cornell Chronicle

Salmonella tends to be killed off by exposure to sunlight but will live and multiply in damp shady places 
The high risks of catching salmonella from undercooked duck eggs has been widely reported for many years


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I've never had an issue with horses and ducks. I know two other people with both and they haven't had problems either. 

We get plenty of flooding in Florida. I don't let my horses drink strange water on the trails, but they always drank the water in our yard without a problem.


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

I kept ducks for ages too. I think at the time of my QH's death I had around 150 different birds between assorted poultry. I actually blame it on the pheasant release on the property adjacent to me. While my birds roamed at will and were only locked up at night for safety those pheasants came from giant game bird farms in NY and when you have a pen with thousands of birds it's pretty hard keeping things clean.

If you read those links they even say that wild populations only loose one or two here and there. More of a freak thing than mass death. How many of you are going to test when a single pet chicken is found dead?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, birds do commonly carry Salmonella , so quite possible

" 
*What is the risk of getting Salmonella from live poultry?*

It's common for chickens, ducks, and other poultry to carry _Salmonella_. _Salmonella_ is a type of germ that naturally lives in the intestines of poultry and many other animals. Even organically fed poultry can have _Salmonella_. While it usually doesn't make the birds sick, _Salmonella_ can cause serious illness when it is passed to people.


From this link:


Keeping Backyard Poultry | Features | CDC


Of course, without positive cultures, not a fact, as being the cause.
If concerned, I would have some of those Duck droppings cultured.
Not all carriers of Salmonella are clinically sick also. 

Every once ina while, we would have an out break of Salmonella in the hospital, and the first place investigation started, was to culture feces of all the kitchen staff


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is an info on horses and the risk of contacting Salmonella from poultry

Salmonella: Beware The Bacteria | TheHorse.com


Key paragraph:

Controlling birds in your barn might seem like an impossible task, but Dwyer has seen barns where the owners seem to be begging for infection to take over. In one such barn, she says, there was a bird's nest situated directly above one horse's feed tub, and waste was being splattered every day on that tub! You might not be able to eliminate birds from your loft or hay storage areas entirely, but you can make it more difficult for them to roost in your barn (try placing fine wire mesh along your rafters to keep them out of the upper regions above your horses' stalls, suggests Traub-Dargatz) and eliminate nests in places where they might contaminate your horses' grain. Needless to say, it's probably not a good idea to have free-ranging chicken, ducks, or geese wandering through the same areas your horses inhabit, either.


Sop yes, while Salmonella bacteria exist many places, brid dropping are a source


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

On either end of my run in is a barn swallow nest. As long as it stays a small colony I'm content with them eating mosquitoes. If for some reason all their kin decide to move in they are gone.

Nobody eats in there so the odd bird dropping isn't a big problem. Still better than bugs.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Thanks for the thoughts so far guys. Thanks for the hugs Corporal(I'll take 'em anyway!:hug but it wasn't my horse. Mine were in the same paddock as him. *And as mentioned, salmonella has been ruled out.*

My feelings are this guy was run down & grain overloaded(don't know exactly what but a big bucket of grainy mix once daily cos he was a 'typical TB'(!)). Lacking in good nutrition... this was the final straw. And I suspect, esp with salmonella ruled out, that the 'local cases' could possibly be the same vet/same baseless theory... but I don't know & definitely don't want to rule anything out baselessly myself, seeing as my horses are in this environment.


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

Yes it is possible, one of mine developed salmonella type symptoms, luckily caught early enough for treatment to be effective.

My culprit was the wild Pukeko's along with a product called Founderguard. The Founderguard contains various antibiotics that knock out some of the bacteria that can cause laminitis, they compromised his gut so badly that when he picked up the bug his whole digestive system went haywire.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^THAT sort of effect should be more publicised - I hate 'Founderguard'! People just don't realise it's antibiotics... and the effects antib's can have on the gut!

So if salmonella ruled out, any more ideas of whether it could be something 'dangerous' in the environment, or do my gut feelings seem right??


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

Vet had a few choice words to say about Founderguard as he had lost two horses to it a few weeks earlier.


Spoke to Bomac and they admitted that they had also had a couple die on it. I think they have now made it vet only prescribe.


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

Something to keep in mind when confronted with salmonella and other gut disruptions is a transfaunation - AKA fecal transplant from a healthy slick fat horse. This 100% works and can turn a very sick horse around the corner simply by replenishing his gut with the proper bacteria much better than any probiotic can and has save not only equine lives but human ones too.


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## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

We had a horse a few years back die of salmonella, and again like *Tnavas*, we have pukekos on the property and they LOVE to swim (and most of the time, drown) in our water tubs. All the horses on the property were monitored and it seemed to be a one off case. But like others mention here, it is something they can carry. I try to pick up the poop whenever I see it in my paddocks as we also have huge canadian geese that often take up residence on the property each year. 
But your vet has ruled it out, so I'm at a loss of what it could be.


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

Trinity3205 said:


> Something to keep in mind when confronted with salmonella and other gut disruptions is a transfaunation - AKA fecal transplant from a healthy slick fat horse. This 100% works and can turn a very sick horse around the corner simply by replenishing his gut with the proper bacteria much better than any probiotic can and has save not only equine lives but human ones too.


Seen this done too, saved the life of a very, very sick pony.

Fresh dropping from a healthy horse is mixed with warm water and tube drenched down the sick horse.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Yum! Never heard of it done on horses, tho I've recently heard of the practice... friend of a friend is a proctologist.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Trinity3205 said:


> Something to keep in mind when confronted with salmonella and other gut disruptions is a transfaunation - AKA fecal transplant from a healthy slick fat horse. This 100% works and can turn a very sick horse around the corner simply by replenishing his gut with the proper bacteria much better than any probiotic can and has save not only equine lives but human ones too.



Fecal transplants are only indicated when someone has Clostridium dfficile collitis, which has not responded to antibiotics


Fecal transplantation is being tried as a treatment for _C. difficile_ infection because, conceptually, it makes sense. Physicians are beginning to recognize that one of the reasons why _C. difficile_ infection may occur and recur is because antibiotics perturb patients' intestinal microflora, now called the microbiome. When the microbiome is altered unfavorably, patients are in a state of dysbiosis, and the community of living organisms in the intestine will no longer be able to protect the host against _C. difficile_ infection. By reintroducing a healthy diversity of bacteria, fecal transplantation can re-establish colonization resistance to prevent _C. difficile_ from gaining a foothold and becoming a dominant organism in the environment of the gut.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Just curious me.
Went back to original post. If the vet truly ruled out Salmonella, but gave the second possibility as duck poo, then what organism in that duck poo did he attribute it to, if not Salmonella?
Did he culture both the duck poo and that of the horse?
Septic diarrhea , means that organisms entered the blood stream, via a ;leaky gut, thus were blood cultures actually done?


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

CDC - Birds & Pools - Animals and Pools - Pools & Hot Tubs - Healthy Swimming & Recreational Water - Healthy Water


Birds and their droppings can carry over 60 diseases - Medical News Today

Question of the Week: Birds in the Barn

After all that doom I do have to say having birds around is good. They eat a lot of bugs and are pleasant to watch. 
I get a few geese every spring. I've got wild ducks wandering in and out. I don't discourage them. Even feed more than a few.

I like birds much better than a like ticks or mosquitoes.


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

I know for a fact it has been used on horses with salmonella successfully and in fact was an old time remedy for some sorts of colics and other gut issues with horses, cattle and other animals. 

I also recently read about it potentially being used to help people with Crohns.


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Fecal transplants are only indicated when someone has Clostridium dfficile collitis, which has not responded to antibiotics
> 
> 
> Fecal transplantation is being tried as a treatment for _C. difficile_ infection because, conceptually, it makes sense. Physicians are beginning to recognize that one of the reasons why _C. difficile_ infection may occur and recur is because antibiotics perturb patients' intestinal microflora, now called the microbiome. When the microbiome is altered unfavorably, patients are in a state of dysbiosis, and the community of living organisms in the intestine will no longer be able to protect the host against _C. difficile_ infection. By reintroducing a healthy diversity of bacteria, fecal transplantation can re-establish colonization resistance to prevent _C. difficile_ from gaining a foothold and becoming a dominant organism in the environment of the gut.


Smilie please consider that the majority of people on this forum will have no idea what you are talking about - can you drop the 'technical speak' and word it so that we can all understand.

Drenching horses with a healthy fresh dropping has been done for decades, its nothing new - I saw it done in the 70's - the problem with modern medicine is that they think only the latest and newest can fix. How any vet could possibly consider using antibiotics to fix a digestive problem in a horse whos digestion totally relies on the flora in its guts is beyond me.

Where possible I decline injected antibiotics for topical - then at east you don't upset the horses digestion.

Trinity3205 I've heard his treatment is used from several medical friends, and that it is used more than we realise on those with long term digestive problems.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Tnavas said:


> Smilie please consider that the majority of people on this forum will have no idea what you are talking about - can you drop the 'technical speak' and word it so that we can all understand.
> .


I'll try. 
The bowel has lots of different organisms/bacteria which keep things working correctly. Some long term or not so long term, use of antibiotics can kill off the good bacteria which normally keeps the C-Diff (a kind of bacteria) in check. When that happens the bowel can't do it's job, the C-diff takes over & causes trouble & sometimes death.


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

natisha said:


> I'll try.
> The bowel has lots of different organisms/bacteria which keep things working correctly. Some long term or not so long term, use of antibiotics can kill off the good bacteria which normally keeps the C-Diff (a kind of bacteria) in check. When that happens the bowel can't do it's job, the C-diff takes over & causes trouble & sometimes death.


Natisha - I was asking Smilie to write her posts in a less technical manner. I know what she is talking about but many others will not.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Tnavas said:


> Natisha - I was asking Smilie to write her posts in a less technical manner. I know what she is talking about but many others will not.


sorry, won't happen again


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

When you say he had colic and was then euthanized - how long after the colic attack did that happen?
I mean horses get various types of colic but when its just 'stomach ache' with no blockages they usually recover.
Same with an attack of diarrhea - they can get over it with the right attention, sometimes diarrhea and colic can mean there's a blockage that's only allowing really watery stuff to get through
Did the vet consider Grass Sickness? Colic and diarrhea are both common symptoms of that?


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

When I first heard of fecal transplants, I was listening to a story told by an old school horseman when we were dealing with a very sick mare ourselves. He was telling a story about a barn where pigeons roosted in the rafters over the horses stalls and crapped all over the place. Somewhere down the line, A bunch of those (very expensive TWHs at the time) got sick with colic and the projectile poops and the vet apparently was having no luck with modern ( at the time) medicine. I guess the farrier came along and told them how to fix the sick horses after a couple were dead and the rest on deaths door. Make poop soup from healthy horses manure, strain through a cheesecloth and tube all sick horses. Recovery for all of them after that. They also shot all the pigeons and cleared out the rafters from ever having birds in them again.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Smilie said:


> Just curious me.
> Went back to original post. If the vet truly ruled out Salmonella, but gave the second possibility as duck poo, then what organism in that duck poo did he attribute it to, if not Salmonella?
> Did he culture both the duck poo and that of the horse?
> Septic diarrhea , means that organisms entered the blood stream, via a ;leaky gut, thus were blood cultures actually done?


I've only got it 2nd hand from the owner. Tests were done & salmonella ruled out, but I don't know if it was fecal or blood. I think owner is muddled as to duck poo with salmonella not the problem, but I thought I'd ask you guys if you know of anything else like that. Owner said, when I first told her her horse looked colicky, that she thought it was just that she gave him a bit much feed....


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