# What to look for when choosing a Halter Stud?



## Drifting

To start with, make sure your mare is 5 panel tested, as well as tested for frame, and make sure the Stallion is also 5 panel tested and tested for frame. You don't want any surprises when it comes to genetic diseases and HYPP and PSSM can be prevalent in the halter industry.


----------



## LSurb1997

She is 5 pannel tested as well as lwo, That was the first thing I did before I even started looking for a stud.


----------



## LSurb1997

I have narrowed it down to these 3 studs:

Tegtmeier Paints - Home of Dirty Impression

Harnish Performance Horses - Invited Back

http://www.7-5ranch.com/kidsgottasecret.htm


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Do you have any conformation shots of your mare? Having good conformation shots of the mare would help choose a stud that would compliment her.

If I were to rank those three studs, just based on conformation, I'd put Kids Gotta Secret first, then Dirty Impression, then Invited Back. I don't like that Invited Back doesn't have any conformation shots on his site. Also, he looks more like a HS stud than a halter stud.

What are your plans for the foal?


----------



## LSurb1997

I do not have any conformation shots of her but for the foal I plan on showing as long as I can and then going onto speed events and Western pleasure.


----------



## LSurb1997

I do not have any conformation shots of her but for the baby I want to show as long as I can and then go onto speed events and western pleasure


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

What is your mare's breeding?


----------



## Avna

Personally I would pick a stud that has good sound feet and produces good sound feet. My horse's pasture companion is a halter bred paint. Gorgeous horse with a lovely temperament but her feet are so poor that she's unsound at ten years of age. My farrier shoes a 60-horse paint show barn. He told me that out of all those horses there are maybe three with good feet. Three. 

Paint halter people must not give a flying fart about the future of their breed, is my conclusion. Prove me wrong by putting soundness first when you look for a stud. Starting with the feet.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

LSurb1997 said:


> I do not have any conformation shots of her but for the baby I want to show as long as I can and then go onto speed events and western pleasure


If you want to use the horse for something other than halter, then I wouldn't look at halter studs. Not many of them make good using horses.


----------



## LSurb1997

Avna, I have never heard that about the feet but I will definitely look into it. Thanks for mentioning it. 

DraftyAiresMum, As far as the comment about halter horses not being good for anything other that Halter that is a load of bull. My mare excellent at everything we try from jumping to barrel racing. And it's not just my mare, 100% of the halter horses that I personally know do something other than just halter. Heck I know a halter horse that won world the the apha world show in barrel racing.

This is Bellas Breeding:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/seriously+bootyfull


----------



## Avna

DraftyAiresMum said:


> If you want to use the horse for something other than halter, then I wouldn't look at halter studs. Not many of them make good using horses.


Don't hold it against DraftyAire, it's a truism for almost any breed and not just horses either. It's so easy to overlook something basic when you have no performance test, only an appearance test. 

My Morgan is 14.2, 900 lbs (I taped her), her Paint pasture mate is 15.2, maybe 1200 lbs. They have the same size feet. My horse with her hard sound feet grows out evenly toes and heels, the Paint's chalky soft feet just grow the toe out until her heels start bruising; they never grow. Really hard to keep her from getting sore. Even though she never gets ridden she has to be shod. It's a shame. She's the product of many deliberate breedings, this did not have to happen. 

Be careful!


----------



## LSurb1997

My mare is super sound.


----------



## Yogiwick

DraftyAiresMum said:


> If you want to use the horse for something other than halter, then I wouldn't look at halter studs. Not many of them make good using horses.


This. I am pleasantly surprised at the first two choices (though yes, wish there were confo shots) but the last one is just built NOT to last, exactly what Drafty's point is. Wouldn't even consider him based on his end end. So nope.

The others, maybe. Do post pics of your mare.


----------



## LSurb1997




----------



## LSurb1997

I was just informed that kids gotta secret might not be live covering outside mares this year.


----------



## Yogiwick

She's cute and looks well built but can you post pics of her square and with her head up? You want to not only evaluate both horses conformation but how they compliment each other as well.

What exactly are you looking to breed for? Are you looking to show halter? You want to breed halter but don't seem to know the (very common and serious) weaknesses in halter horses and it also sounds like halter isn't your goal, but a riding all around athlete so am unsure what direction you're aiming for.


----------



## LSurb1997

Yogiwick said:


> She's cute and looks well built but can you post pics of her square and with her head up? You want to not only evaluate both horses conformation but how they compliment each other as well.
> 
> What exactly are you looking to breed for? Are you looking to show halter? You want to breed halter but don't seem to know the (very common and serious) weaknesses in halter horses and it also sounds like halter isn't your goal, but a riding all around athlete so am unsure what direction you're aiming for.


Everyone has to start somewhere. As I said I want to show the foal in halter then go to speed events or western pleasure.


----------



## Yogiwick

LSurb1997 said:


> Everyone has to start somewhere. As I said I want to show the foal in halter then go to speed events or western pleasure.


Sorry, you did say that. I guess I'm just thinking a nice horse is a nice horse... it doesn't sound like you are super focused on showing specifically, correct me if I'm wrong. I would look at the overall picture and try not to get stuck on a specific aspect.


----------



## LSurb1997

I want to show and do speed events.


----------



## paintedpastures

A lot depends on the level of showing you want to do. Lower levels you may get away with breeding to one of those studs for disciplines you are wanting to compete:-? Wanting to be more competitive none will likely work.The first horse is a mix of halter & old performance, second is a pleasure bred horse so not bred for speed . Last horse is halter bred not going to be great mover.:grin: if you want horse that can do performance classes the first 2 studs would be better but not expecting they would excel in all what you want to do as disciplines vary too much. Hard to find horse that can do fast,slow & chunky stand & look pretty all in one package:-o


----------



## LSurb1997

This is a picture I found of dirty impression.


----------



## LSurb1997

If I just wanted to focus on showing which one would be best?


----------



## LSurb1997

Another picture of bella


----------



## EliRose

That picture is not telling anyone anything. If you want any sort of decent help, please take the time to get a good picture of your mare.


----------



## LSurb1997

Those are just pictures I found in my phone. When I went to the barn last night I forgot to take any.


----------



## Dustbunny

LSurb1997 said:


> Those are just pictures I found in my phone. When I went to the barn last night I forgot to take any.




You have a mare with no record. You want to breed for a foal that will do it all, and keep the stud fee under $500? 
FWIW, I learned a long time ago that it was far cheaper to buy a horse that would do what I wanted as opposed to spinning the roulette wheel. Even a mare with nothing but good qualities and a proven sire can have a less than desired offspring.


----------



## LSurb1997

Yes my mare has no show record I got her when I was 12. She was 4 at the time. I am a full time student who loves my mare more than anything and I want to have a little Bella, Not because I just want a foal but because to me she has good breeding and shes getting older so I do not want to wait any longer, The 500 limit is because of the other costs of breeding such as the vet exam, the shipping and AI.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

We are the ones looking at auction horses with nice breeding who were once someone's "precious little bit of their old mare" who end up on their way to slaughter because the people ran out of money or time or whatever. We are the ones thinking about the "what ifs" of "What happens if you can't afford to keep the foal or something happens to you?" Life happens at the most inconvenient times. You can't guarantee a home for the foal forever, no matter how much you wish you could. So, you try to give the foal the best shot at a good home should the unthinkable ever occur and you can't care for it anymore. This means superior breeding and good, solid training. If you can't provide both, then you have no business breeding. Not being harsh. Just stating the facts. And don't say "That won't happen" or "that'll never happen to me." Bull-pooey. It can, AND DOES, happen to anyone.

As for the halter horses not being useful for anything, the ones who are are unfortunately the exception, NOT the rule. Show me a STRAIGHT HALTER BRED horse that can stand up to the kind of use you're talking about and I'll show you twenty more who are barely pasture sound.


----------



## carshon

I would like to add something for the OP. We had a mare out of Concluded (making her a granddaughter of Impressive) the mare was out of a ranch bred mare. Our mare had an eye injury before we purchased her. She was 15.3H and weighed about 1200lbs. Good solid feet and a nice ride. Only issue was she was built like a halter horse. Huge bulking shoulders that made saddle fitting nearly impossible. We bred her to a very nice Appaloosa Stallion that was more performance bred (cow horse) hoping to get a shorter horse and not so bulky horse. We ended up with a 16H 1300lb behemouth of a horse. Gorgeous Appy coloring but had the same issue with saddle fit. He had good feet - decent temperament.

To the OP- you may want to breed to a horse who is known for versatility - not for halter bloodlines. Halter horses are bred to be bulky not fast. Your mare does not look to have the size of a halter horse nor the typical build. 

Take a really good look at your mare and find her faults conformationally - then try to find a stallion that may be able to balance those faults out. For us we took a gamble and it did not pay off. Our resulting foal was bigger than his dam and his sire was 14.3H - gorgeous to look at - but we never did find a saddle that did not slide off of those HUGE shoulders.

It sounds like your stallion choices may be a little contradictory to your end goals (barrel racing) Don't limit yourself to halter bloodlines. And to be very honest those halter blood lines have changed a lot in the last 10 years. So a horse bred 10 years ago for halter may not win well today.


----------



## SunnyDraco

LSurb1997 said:


> She is 5 pannel tested as well as lwo, That was the first thing I did before I even started looking for a stud.


What were the results for the testing? 

By the picture that you posted of your mare, I would be surprised if she didn't have frame. The white pattern on her neck is classical for frame, rarely imitated by sabino which is the only other white pattern that could even attempt a messy pattern that by coincidence took a horizontal shape. 

What were the results of the 5-panel? Any nasties that only need 1 copy to be a problem? Like PSSM which usually takes effect later in life?

By the way, in the current halter world, the last stallion you had posted with links would probably do the best in halter competition and the worst in performance. The first reason being that halter competition has greatly strayed from creating beautiful conformation for longevity and soundness under rigorous work. The biggest problem that halter stallion has against him for performance beyond excessive muscling is that he is extremely post legged. His hind legs are very straight from hoof to hip, this is popular in the halter world but creates major problems for performance as the movement of those hind legs will create massive issues for both movement and soundness. 

The paint stallion has a link to view his lethal white (frame) test but at least for me it was a deadend link. No mention anywhere else of what the test result was. 

If you want to keep costs for breeding down, live cover is usually the better option. Anyone who can get a maiden mare bred with 1 collection/shipment is very lucky. If it takes more than 1 attempt, will you have the extra funds to try 2 or even 3 more times? The costs of AI add up fast and for a full time student, money and your time can be in short supply.


----------



## Smilie

LSurb1997 said:


> I do not have any conformation shots of her but for the foal I plan on showing as long as I can and then going onto speed events and Western pleasure.


+

Do not look t halter studs then, at halter stallions, but nice performance horse, that will hopefully pass his proven athletic ability on to that foal, although it is best to breed like to like.
Your two disciplines are also far apart, as stallions in either discipline will have different attributes, far a movement, desire to move slow legged, versus a horse more working bred, with more working cowhorse and running blood
How is your mare bred? Do you ride her? What is her movement like, if you do?


----------



## Smilie

LSurb1997 said:


> Avna, I have never heard that about the feet but I will definitely look into it. Thanks for mentioning it.
> 
> DraftyAiresMum, As far as the comment about halter horses not being good for anything other that Halter that is a load of bull. My mare excellent at everything we try from jumping to barrel racing. And it's not just my mare, 100% of the halter horses that I personally know do something other than just halter. Heck I know a halter horse that won world the the apha world show in barrel racing.
> 
> This is Bellas Breeding:
> Seriously Bootyfull Paint


A horse with good conformation, not specifically halter bred, can win regional halter classes,, as my all around horses do, BUt they are not going to win World level breed halter classes.
I know not of one AQHA stallion, nor Appaloosa(ApHC (breed that I show),that has a world championship in halter and has done anything under saddle.
Yes, some have offspring that have done okay in performance, but that is because of the mare used-who is not a halter horse
Please give me the name of that Paint, who is a world champion at halter, and has also won barrel racing
Most halter horses, shown at World level, are never even ridden,so after a few generations, proof that they can stay sound under work, have good minds, has not been tested, nor even bred for, as halter has become a speciality onto itself
Heck, you won;t even see reiners or working cowhorses or even pleasure horses showing at halter in upper end, even though they are very attractive and correct 
Horses like Hollywood Dunit , never ever saw the inside of a halter ring
In fact, AQHA created performance halter, so that those performance hroses, wanting to show at halter, did not need to compete against those halter specialists, as that horse in those classes, had to be shown under saddle in at least one class


----------



## Smilie

Invited Back, is pleasure bred, not halter


----------



## Knave

My parents owned a halter mare once. She showed reining and cowhorse before they bought her, but she was pretty mediocre. She stayed sound but ended up with cancer eye and was put down.

They bred her before she showed any cancer signs to a cowhorse. The colt also was very sound and beautiful in that muscular way. He could have been more competitive than her, but still wouldn't have made a high end performance horse. We sold him recently. Soundness and looks were his best attributes.


----------



## Smilie

Knave said:


> My parents owned a halter mare once. She showed reining and cowhorse before they bought her, but she was pretty mediocre. She stayed sound but ended up with cancer eye and was put down.
> 
> They bred her before she showed any cancer signs to a cowhorse. The colt also was very sound and beautiful in that muscular way. He could have been more competitive than her, but still wouldn't have made a high end performance horse. We sold him recently. Soundness and looks were his best attributes.



Was she strictly halter bred, and at what level did she show in reining?
I find it strange, that she was reining trained, if halter bred, because any serious reiner i know, won't even look at a prospect that is not reining bred top and bottom, and certainly never at a halter bred horse
Working cowhorse and reining breeders, have identified strong lines in their disciplines, for many generations, while pleasure horse breeding has become more specific in just the last 50 years or so.
At one time, it was common to breed a pleasure horse to a halter horse, and hope for a'pretty pleasure hrose. While that worked at times, often that horse was neither a top pleasure horse, nor atop halter horse
Gosh, I really can't think of anyone on the NRHA circuit or our ApHC breed circuit, that would even consider trying to rein a halter bred horse.
How was that mare bred?


----------



## Smilie

Back tot he OP
I can understand you wanting a foal out of a favorite mare, but she is un proven in any event, and why not just then breed her to a good local all around performance horse?
Most well known stallions will only stand to approved mares, and you will never get the value back, investing in transported semen fees and all that goes with that, using a mare that has done nothing. You want to limit the breeding fee to $500-well, that transported semen, collection, vet fees, if she even conceives on the first shipment, can well exceed that breeding fee.
If you did wish to use one of those three stallions, i would at least pick the pleasure bred one, to try and produce that all around horse.
Sorry, I raised and showed horses for too many years, learning along the way, to have you convince me that a straight halter bred horse is going to make a good all around using horse, or that they are even out there, beyond perhaps a local schooling show. Never say, never, as maybe that rare individual is out there.
Best advise I got, from a reining trainer, when complaining how halter now no longer reflects future athletic ability, as in the past, when halter was used as an entry level class, with that horse going on to ride
He told me, as a person who rides performance horses, why did I care? He told me if I bred performance hroses to performance horses, what happens in the halter industry, does not affect me, and that those people showing halter horses, had every right, if they chose to, to just 'lead um and feed um
I followed that advise ever since that time, as in the beginning, I too bred to halter stallions, as they are the ones out there so prominent and heavily advertized, plus halter is a class relatively easy to show in, when first tryng o show breed, versus performance classes


----------



## Knave

Smilie, she was strictly halter. My mom saw her showing in working cow as a young horse and bought her. She wasn't what my mother anticipated in the end, only ever decent at reining and actually scared of cows. I do not know why the people who my mom purchased her from bought or started her in that direction. They also were not halter people.

She was very pretty, positive for hypp though, but it never did effect her. She may have been a decent all around if one cared enough to push, but she never could have been great at any performance event in my opinion.


----------



## Knave

On a side note about the mare, she did actually look decent for a young reiner. My mother took her prior horse to top 10 in the aqha world, and fairly quickly after purchasing the mare decided she wasn't the quality she looked. They do have top level horses. Lol


----------



## paintedpastures

I know halter bred horses that do fairly well as roping horses other disciplines not so much.:| My one mare is a 2x superior halter horse. I do ride her but she moves like a freight train:smile: I never pursued performance classes with her as she didn't have the movement to be competitive. Her full brother though was trained for & did well in reining.Was told Her mother was also a finished reining horse.My mares breeding is not your typical halter bloodlines however , but rather more old school all round breeding,just her sire was noted as sire of pretty halter types so that is what most people promoted the offspring:smile: in reality many could be decent performance horses. Stallion has since passed on & not many like him around anymore.


----------



## Knave

I know what you mean, like Jackie Bee horses. I think of them as ropers not halter. Lol


----------



## Smilie

There are horses that can halter, at regional levels, that are not halter bred per say
Also, there are horses that just don't fit the discipline they were bred for, but most are older family foundation lines.

\Good example is Doc Bar. I think he was bred to run, failed at that, was kinda small for halter, but crossed with working mares, created a cutting horse dynasty 

It is also true that stock horse breed reining, is not near as tough as open NRHA, esp in non AQHA shows. Appaloosa reining really got tougher, with the High Signs and some other AQHA reining introduced. We used to have joint Paint and App shows, and the paint reiners up here in Alberta, were pathetic, showing on the paint circuit, but then there was Gunner, shown very successfully NRHA
I have friends showing NRHA, used to show in reining, bred some ApHC World champion reiners and working cowhorses, and am totally unware of any halter blood in those winning reiners or working cowhorses
If you have the pedigree of such a horse, I would be interested in seeing it. That is, straight immediate halter blood, with no infusion of working blood
As I said before, there are halter stallions, because of their popularity, who were bred to a wide spectrum of mares, besides mostly to fellow halter bred mares.
Some good performance horses resulted from those crosses, but the mares can be given that credit
Not much different in crossing a Tb with a draft.If that cross works, then you get the best of both sides, but it is also much more variable, in outcome, then breeding like to like, thus serious performance people, esp in reining and working cowhorse, just do not use halter blood. Training is expensive, and crossing two successful reiners does not guarantee a reiner, but sure narrows the odds!
Here, for example is the list of million dollar NRHA sires, and their sire and dam. I do not recognize any halter names being there

NRHA


----------



## Smilie

Knave said:


> I know what you mean, like Jackie Bee horses. I think of them as ropers not halter. Lol


When I think of halter horses, it is horses like Impressive, Conclusion Coolest and not some older lines that happen to have been shown at halter, then also performed
I think ther eis some confusion, between horses that wer shown at halter, might be in the foundation pedigree of some halter horses, and what today are recognized as halter stallions=a discipline onto itself, specialized like any other discipline


----------



## Smilie

I looked up Jackie Bee. he himself never won a halter class, but was bred to some good foundation mares, and his offspring were successful in the halter ring in the 70s and 80s, then many were recognized and bought for performance horses
I would not consider him a halter horse, but a horse with good conformation, bred to some good working mares, produced horses that were successful in both halter and performance, but that was some 40 years ago, and those offspring were not halter X halter, and would not be competitive against today's halter hroses, anymore then some western pl horses from that era, against the modern bred and moving pleasure horses today
All events have become tougher and more specialized, including halter. The day where world champion halter horses went on to perform and do well under saddle are gone.]
heck, even if they could move decent, once weight was taken off, most have been crippled by the way halter horses are fed and conditioned
I was an a Canadian National Appaloosa show, and there was an aged mare there, up from the States, and who was a known halter champion. She did win the class, but the judges had to ask her to jog out several times, just to see if she was sound, as she moved awful


----------



## stevenson

If you are set on breeding your mare, maybe find a stallion that has shown other than halter, and that has offspring that have competed and placed. 
All the stallions are pretty, but each one had different things I did not like. 

You also need to realize the cost of raising a foal is costly. The extra feed needed by the mare, the extra vaccines. If she has complications then the extra Vet bills. 
You have a chance of a foal dying, a mare dying, or both dying. 
Then you have the years of waiting until the foal can be started. All the training fees, which add up quick ! If it will cost (approximate) $ 750.00 a month for training and it takes 6 months to a year for a green trained horse , so if its ten months training then $ 7500.00 . You might consider saving your money and getting a trained horse.


----------



## Knave

Smilie, not to continue to steal the post, but I still have papers on the colt, so I'll have to look at them again. 

What's funny is I agree with you. That's why I pointed out the mare. Not to be too biased, but my family is pretty talented and the mare really didn't have it. She was just pretty in the end. I didn't know that apha had gotten any tougher. Last I knew there wasn't much there either, but it's been a long time since I watched one.


----------



## Smilie

Knave said:


> Smilie, not to continue to steal the post, but I still have papers on the colt, so I'll have to look at them again.
> 
> What's funny is I agree with you. That's why I pointed out the mare. Not to be too biased, but my family is pretty talented and the mare really didn't have it. She was just pretty in the end. I didn't know that apha had gotten any tougher. Last I knew there wasn't much there either, but it's been a long time since I watched one.


I don't doubt what you said about that mare, as there always are exceptions,
Far APHA, I am only referring to reining, and what I saw at our joint Appalossa and Paint shows
I saw Paints as being tough in rail classes, trail, ect, but saw no real reiners
I am also not generalizing, as I am aware of Paints, shown open NRHA, like Gunner, that very extremely competitive
So, ceratinly some very competitive Paint reiners, but Gunner was a crop out from performance AQHA, and not halter bred

http://www.doubleprranch.com/doublepr/images/Articles/First_TimeOwners.pdf


----------



## Smilie

Here is the pedigree of Colonels Smoking gun (Gunner_

Colonels Smoking Gun Quarter Horse


----------



## Knave

That's neat! I guess there's always Titan too who may end up being successful. I thought the same though historically; good rail class horses, some great ropers, but not much for reining or cow work.


----------



## LSurb1997

I've looked for horses around me but I haven't found any that really stand out to me that don't charge over 750 just for the breeding. My price limit for the stud fee if not local would be 500 because I'd still have to pay shipping and for the AI itself.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

LSurb1997 said:


> I've looked for horses around me but I haven't found any that really stand out to me that don't charge over 750 just for the breeding. My price limit for the stud fee if not local would be 500 because I'd still have to pay shipping and for the AI itself.


I would recommend you save your money and try to buy a breeding to a quality stallion in a year or 2, if you're determined to breed that mare. Be aware also, that stallion owners may or may not accept the mare if they don't think that she is the quality they want for their stallion.


----------



## LSurb1997

I found these three

Picture Perfect Palominos Crosby, Texas

Black Quarter Horse Foundation Stallion Socia Texas

About Captain Perk | Garrett Quarter Horses | Hempstead, TX | Black Stallion Captain Perk


----------



## Knave

I guess I'd have to pick the Cokes Dry horse of those three.


----------



## Smilie

Well, now you are starting to look at some performance horses.
Keeping in mind, you budget, far as breeding fees, some stallion owners include collection fee, while some charge around $200 per collection
I was lucky, knowing a good local equine vet, so I could haul my mare back and forth, to check follicle size, co coordinating that semen collection an shipping, and then the actual insemination
I know others that spent way more on those vet fees, keeping their mare at that vet facility for a month or more, then that breeding fee ever cost
If you are looking at shipped semen, find out how well hat stud ships, if collection fee is include, if they collect every other day, ect.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

I agree with @Knave. I like Cokes Dry the best out of the three. The other two are built WAY too downhill to be really useful. I'd even venture to guess that the only reason the first one is still a stallion is because of his color.


----------



## LSurb1997

The 3 I just posted are local.


----------



## Smilie

I like the third horse slightly better.
Yes, he might be considered a bit downhill, but many speed AQHA horses are built that way, for quick acceleration, as needed in barrel racing and other speed events
He has proven himself also in that event( Captain Perk)
What has Dry Doc done? Look at his bottom picture, and he is just as downhill as the third horse.
First horse is a halter stallion, so that alone excludes him for me


----------



## Smilie

In the top picture that Dry Doc stud is standing stretched, but when he is standing square, he is also slightly downhill
The third horse is enrolled in various events, where his offspring can win money, he himself has won money, and sure could not have done so, if he could 'do nothing'
Look at his barrel racing NBRA record, watch his one run, in that video clip, look what full siblings have done
HE has proven himself way above that Dry Doc stud, and has some very good barrel racing lines


----------



## LSurb1997

Which one would be the best for what I want? I'm not looking for a horse to take all the way to world in halter, although that would be nice. I'm just looking for one that will make a halter horse then later a performance horse. To me I feel like two gold hollywood would do that. I have read a little bit about him and I'm liking him a lot. Plus as a perk I would get a palamino baby.


----------



## Smilie

LSurb1997 said:


> Which one would be the best for what I want? I'm not looking for a horse to take all the way to world in halter, although that would be nice. I'm just looking for one that will make a halter horse then later a performance horse. To me I feel like two gold hollywood would do that. I have read a little bit about him and I'm liking him a lot. Plus as a perk I would get a palamino baby.


Where do you get that idea from, far as him being a good prospect for a future performance horse sire?
Has he done anything under saddle? Has he produced any performance winners?I think you need to decide, as to whether you want a pretty performance hrose, that can halter also, at the regional level, or if you are trying for just a halter horse


----------



## LSurb1997

https://www.equinehits.com/print.php?id=190063


----------



## Smilie

LSurb1997 said:


> https://www.equinehits.com/print.php?id=190063


 So, just because a breeder claims his stud can produce performers, has "potential in some events, proves zero.
Where are winning offspring under saddle. Where are actual titles this hrose himself has won in performance? In fact, has this stud got even a halter show record?
Anyone can stand a stallion, that has done nothing, produced nothing, and claim he has potencial in as many events they feel like listing, will produce winning offspring, that that is just advertizing.
The proof is in the pudding, and only stud in your last list of three, that has actually proven himself, is that bottom one, who has won money in barrel racing, not claimed that he has the 'potencial'
Of course, if you really follow criteria of serious breeder, they look not only at what a stallion himself has done, but in what he produces, and why, stallions with proven production record, demand a high fee, and even stand to approved mares only


----------



## EliRose

You do know that page hasn't been updated in seven years, right?


----------



## LSurb1997

I know it hasnt been updated, All of the studs info is on the owners facebook and I dont feel comfortable sharing that on here.


----------



## EliRose

That's incredibly sketchy. Why would they not want to promote their own horse?


----------



## SunnyDraco

EliRose said:


> That's incredibly sketchy. Why would they not want to promote their own horse?


Horse forum rules last I knew actually had a rule against linking to Facebook in the forum since it was sort of a competing social media network...

I think picture links to even public Facebook pictures were disabled in the forum.


----------



## EliRose

SunnyDraco said:


> Horse forum rules last I knew actually had a rule against linking to Facebook in the forum since it was sort of a competing social media network...
> 
> I think picture links to even public Facebook pictures were disabled in the forum.


Oh, not talking about linking to the forum per say. It is very weird that a stallion owner has a website but is only using their _personal_ FB to advertise their stallion.


----------



## LSurb1997

EliRose said:


> Oh, not talking about linking to the forum per say. It is very weird that a stallion owner has a website but is only using their _personal_ FB to advertise their stallion.


Lots of owners do that. There are TONS of groups on facebook dedicated to just owners advertising their studs.


----------



## EliRose

Not when the stallion is any good or has any good offspring . . . Those are backyard breeders with kool kolorful stallions.


----------



## LSurb1997

EliRose said:


> Not when the stallion is any good or has any good offspring . . . Those are backyard breeders with kool kolorful stallions.


Actually one of his foals just won world reserve in halter 2 days ago so...


----------



## LSurb1997

EliRose said:


> Not when the stallion is any good or has any good offspring . . . Those are backyard breeders with kool kolorful stallions.


Actually one of his foals just won world reserve in halter 2 days ago so...


----------



## Knave

Lol. This thread can be funny. Actually I'm surprised at everything moving to Facebook. I never had an account until recently and why I do is because of that! A lot of the trainers don't update their websites anymore. Breeders too... horses for sale... Everything is facebook!


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Knave said:


> Lol. This thread can be funny. Actually I'm surprised at everything moving to Facebook. I never had an account until recently and why I do is because of that! A lot of the trainers don't update their websites anymore. Breeders too... horses for sale... Everything is facebook!


I think it's because FB is easier to navigate and groups place everything centrally-located, rather than have to slog through dozens of websites. It's also easier and quicker to update.


----------



## danicelia24

@Smilie just playing devil's advocate as I despise the halter horse industry. However wouldn't an example of a AQHA stud that did well in halter and performance be Huntin For Chocolate?


----------



## Knave

Drafty,

You're right but I think I'd still prefer they kept up the sites so I didn't have to be on it! I just don't really care for it too much although sometimes the drama is funny. Love seeing so many horse ads though...


----------



## Smilie

EliRose said:


> Not when the stallion is any good or has any good offspring . . . Those are backyard breeders with kool kolorful stallions.


Ditto
Well known breeders might also have a Facebook page, as a form of networking, but any recognizable, credible breeding operation, also,has a regular home site, plus advertises in breed magazines
IE, they actually pay to promote a stud worth promoting!


----------



## Smilie

danicelia24 said:


> @Smilie just playing devil's advocate as I despise the halter horse industry. However wouldn't an example of a AQHA stud that did well in halter and performance be Huntin For Chocolate?


No. That is pleasure horse/HUS breeding

Huntin for Chocolate Quarter Horse
The top of his pedigree is westwern pleasure breeding (Zippo Pine BaR or zippo Pat Bar, both recognized as foundtaion western pl horses )

The bottom shows typical HUS breeding with some TB influence


----------



## Smilie

This is an example of halter horse breeding, Mr Yellow fella

Fossil Gate Farms - Mr Yella Fella, Im Tee Totally Cool, Sock Broker

here is the show record for Huntin for Chocolate.
It is a western pleasure record, not halter

2016 breeding up for bid, Huntin For Chocolate | PleasureHorse.com

I see he sired western pleasure money earners, western riding champions, and see no halter horse record of any kind, as he is NOT A HALTER HORSE, but an exceptionally good moving western pleasure horse, true to his breeding!


----------



## Smilie

I know where some confusion is occurring, by those not actually involved in different segments of the stock horse industry, referring back to danicelia24 post
Three Bars is seen way back in that pedigree, known as the sire of Impressive, which is true, but go back far enough, and you will see common sires in various disciplines, that then, through generations, bred selectively for whatever discipline attributes were that were desired, for that discipline, was selected for,leaving other common attributes of that distant sire behind, that another discipline might have selected for, so that over time, horses having that common ancestor way back, don't resemble each other in any way, far as body type or movement
That is also why, serious breeders put little value on some famous ancestor way back on any horse;s papers, but rather look at the immedaite sire and dam, and full siblings, far as any show record
Three Bars himself was a TB, also seen in the background of many performance lines.
The cross that produced Impressive, not only defined the body type desired in halter, but also was the place in time where the HYPP mutation resulted, which helped to develope muscles desired in halter, in the hypp positive horses, long before that genetic defect was recognized. By selecting mare types to breed to Impressive, a halter dynasty was formed, made stronger through successive generations
Other lines going back to Three Bars, chose a different route, through selective breeding
All breeds started somewhere, and there is draft back in Warmblood pedigrees, as well as in many other breeds. But to suggest that a modern Trakkaner is a daft horse, would be totally wrong, or that he looked and moved like a draft horse
Breeds evolve, over time, through selective breeding. The modern TB, although descended from Arabians and Barbs, is not either one of those hroses today
AQHA also has Old Fred back in many pedigrees, and he certainly was a draft type


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Smilie said:


> I know where some confusion is occurring, by those not actually involved in different segments of the stock horse industry, referring back to danicelia24 post
> Three Bars is seen way back in that pedigree, known as the sire of Impressive, which is true, but go back far enough, and you will see common sires in various disciplines, that then, through generations, bred selectively for whatever discipline attributes were that were desired, for that discipline, was selected for,leaving other common attributes of that distant sire behind, that another discipline might have selected for, so that over time, horses having that common ancestor way back, don't resemble each other in any way, far as body type or movement
> That is also why, serious breeders put little value on some famous ancestor way back on any horse;s papers, but rather look at the immedaite sire and dam, and full siblings, far as any show record
> Three Bars himself was a TB, also seen in the background of many performance lines.
> The cross that produced Impressive, not only defined the body type desired in halter, but also was the place in time where the HYPP mutation resulted, which helped to develope muscles desired in halter, in the hypp positive horses, long before that genetic defect was recognized. By selecting mare types to breed to Impressive, a halter dynasty was formed, made stronger through successive generations
> Other lines going back to Three Bars, chose a different route, through selective breeding
> All breeds started somewhere, and there is draft back in Warmblood pedigrees, as well as in many other breeds. But to suggest that a modern Trakkaner is a daft horse, would be totally wrong, or that he looked and moved like a draft horse
> Breeds evolve, over time, through selective breeding. The modern TB, although descended from Arabians and Barbs, is not either one of those hroses today
> AQHA also has Old Fred back in many pedigrees, and he certainly was a draft type


FWIW, my gelding has Three Bars way back on his sire's side and his sire's side is more performance/ranch bred (his sire was APHA, his dam was a Percheron). Just to show the diversity that Three Bars horses were bred to become.


----------



## SunnyDraco

Smilie said:


> I know where some confusion is occurring, by those not actually involved in different segments of the stock horse industry, referring back to danicelia24 post
> Three Bars is seen way back in that pedigree, known as the sire of Impressive, which is true, but go back far enough, and you will see common sires in various disciplines, that then, through generations, bred selectively for whatever discipline attributes were that were desired, for that discipline, was selected for,leaving other common attributes of that distant sire behind, that another discipline might have selected for, so that over time, horses having that common ancestor way back, don't resemble each other in any way, far as body type or movement
> That is also why, serious breeders put little value on some famous ancestor way back on any horse;s papers, but rather look at the immedaite sire and dam, and full siblings, far as any show record
> Three Bars himself was a TB, also seen in the background of many performance lines.
> The cross that produced Impressive, not only defined the body type desired in halter, but also was the place in time where the HYPP mutation resulted, which helped to develope muscles desired in halter, in the hypp positive horses, long before that genetic defect was recognized. By selecting mare types to breed to Impressive, a halter dynasty was formed, made stronger through successive generations
> Other lines going back to Three Bars, chose a different route, through selective breeding
> All breeds started somewhere, and there is draft back in Warmblood pedigrees, as well as in many other breeds. But to suggest that a modern Trakkaner is a daft horse, would be totally wrong, or that he looked and moved like a draft horse
> Breeds evolve, over time, through selective breeding. The modern TB, although descended from Arabians and Barbs, is not either one of those hroses today
> AQHA also has Old Fred back in many pedigrees, and he certainly was a draft type


Technically, Three Bars wasn't the sire of Impressive. He was the paternal grandsire as well as being the maternal great grandsire and great great grandsire. 

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/impressive6

A very prolific thoroughbred stallion whose distant progeny are in every discipline. He was also the only common ancestor for both my old APHA mares (7 and 9 generations back on their pedigrees if I remember right, no Impressive on either). One of those mares was bred for reining and the other was bred for pleasure/working ranch and they were true to their breeding.


----------



## Smilie

Right, should have looked it up, versus just going by memory
Grandson of Three Bars, and double bred Three Bars, top and bottom.
Lots of TB breeding in foundation AQHA, as Quarter horses were first short distant sprint race horses, usually by an TB sire, and out of a ranch mare, thus the name Quarter horse, as they excelled in 1/4 mile races
Zippo Pine Bar is also a grandson of Three Bars, and out of A Poco Pine 
granddaughter, and is considered a foundation western pl horse

Zippo Pine Bar Quarter Horse

Before strong traits, in families of horses, became identified for various disciplines, there were no family lines identified in any particular discipline, esp western pl, where that specific ability was not recognized as early as in some other disciplines, like reining and cutting
Today, a serious horse breeder would not be breeding a running horse, to a working horse, and expect to get a western pl horse, nor even a cutting horse or a reiner
Same goes for halter horses, although some pleasure horses today,do have halter breeding up pretty close, as not too long ago, halter horses that weren't tough in straight halter, were then attempted to be made into 'pretty' pleasure horse producers, crossed with a pleasure horse
It worked at times, just like some sons of Impressive rode.
Smilie's Dam for instance, is an AQHA mare, by Kilomax and out of Mr Impressive granddaughter, . Mr Impressive, was a son of Impressive that had both a successful halter and performance record, and who produced both performance and halter champions. Actually, his performance record was better then his halter record


He looks much more athletic then his sire

Kansas Quarter Horse Association


Kilomax was by Kilobar, who was by king Leo Bar and went also back to Three bars

Kilomax - Ace of Clubs Quarter Horses

Thus, go back far enough, and many disciplines have common ancestors, but breeders today,are not trying to re invent the wheel;, but breeding like to like, for the best chance of producing a horse with upper ability in their chosen dsicipline


----------



## natisha

LSurb1997 said:


> I do not have any conformation shots of her but for the foal I plan on showing as long as I can and then going onto speed events and Western pleasure.


A halter horse for speed events?


----------



## EliRose

LSurb1997 said:


> Actually one of his foals just won world reserve in halter 2 days ago so...


Found the owner's FB page, that's not Two Gold Hollywood's baby. That's a yearling daughter of He's Tee Totally Cool - who is _actually_ promoted by his owners! Please do your research.

I also saw the "conformation" pictures of the horse you're interested in . . . Eek, NO! The only reason that horse is a stallion is his color. I also caught a comment by the owner that she bought a filly _for_ her posty hocks. Avoid avoid avoid, none of her horses are even broke to saddle.


----------



## Smilie

The OP has gotten a lot of good advise, but seems determined to ignor it, set on breeding for color and halter first, and totally ignoring how to follow what advise she asked for in the first place.
If you want an attractive performance horse, that can also halter, at the regional, and esp open show level, you look for that pretty performance horse, and NOT a halter hrose, esp one that has done nothing, and produced nothing, esp in performance


----------



## Smilie

This is Charlie.
She is pleasure bred, by the Appaloosa stallion Awarded X AQHA stallion, Zippo Award, and out of my good producing all around Appaloosa Mare, Irish Love Bug, who is Scooter Bug G bred
She has earned a superior in halter, while also competing successfully in western pl, trail and being a good general riding horse


----------



## Smilie

San Stone Image, was my old reining mare. She is by our one MIghty Bright bred stallion, who earned superiors in games, western riding, reining, cattle events, and out of an AQHA mare \i bought, who was a daughter of a son of Peppy San

San Stone won a foal futurity, earned an ROm in halter, besides her superiors in reining, western riding, trail, hi pt buckles in cattle events, senior performance horse, games, national titles in pole bending, flag picking and western riidng
She aslo produced an APHC World champion, in senior working cowhorse


If you want a performance horse, breed for that first, and 'play at halter, esp if you don't intend to show halter at the world level!


----------



## Yogiwick

Smilie said:


> Where do you get that idea from, far as him being a good prospect for a future performance horse sire?
> Has he done anything under saddle? Has he produced any performance winners?I think you need to decide, as to whether you want a pretty performance hrose, that can halter also, at the regional level, or if you are trying for just a halter horse


This. Unless you're planning on showing at a high level with a true halter horse I would specifically AVOID looking for any halter horses. Just because your mare has halter breeding doesn't mean there are ab****ely no other horses that are a match for her. And your mare has the ADVANTAGE of not having the type of the halter horses, find a good performance horse to breed to. Since the goal should be a nicely conformed horse regardless of breeding then there is nothing preventing you from showing low levels.

A good horse is a good horse, unfortunately a good halter horse tends to be just that.


----------



## Avna

I think the OP didn't want to hear about why her breeding ideas were not well-thought-out. Even the few times she responded, she didn't address the issues that everyone brought up, not even once. I don't think this discussion is helping her, although it might help someone else . . .


----------



## Yogiwick

^I have absolutely no idea why the word absolutely is edited lol.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Yogiwick said:


> ^I have absolutely no idea why the word absolutely is edited lol.


If you're typing on a phone or tablet, you may have accidentally omitted the letter O and not realized it, which would have turned that middle portion of the word into a naughty word. :lol:


----------



## LSurb1997

Am I not allowed to be busy? Also it is his foal that won the reserve title. I am done with the blatant rudeness of people on this post so I do not see the need to reply.


----------



## EliRose

And I quote:

"IMA SPICY QUESADILLA, APHA Yearling Intermediate Paint Res. World Champion. This filly is sired by HES TEE TOTALLY COOL. She is also offered for sale."


----------



## LSurb1997

EliRose said:


> And I quote:
> 
> "IMA SPICY QUESADILLA, APHA Yearling Intermediate Paint Res. World Champion. This filly is sired by HES TEE TOTALLY COOL. She is also offered for sale."


Wrong horse...


----------



## LSurb1997

Sired by Two Golds Hollywood out of RJ Masters Melody. Intermediate reserve world champion APHA open yearling gelding.

AND then theres another one

HOLLYS HOT CHOCOLATE, APHA Weanling Intermediate Solid Bred World Champion...This baby showed like a dream!! She is so so sweet!!! She is also offered for sale.


----------



## EliRose

Now I see what you are talking about (although looking at the offical results from the APHA, Holly's Hot Chocolate is suspect), but the point still stands to stay away from this horse. These are NOT performance-type animals, they are being specifically bred for posty legs and to be ridiculously downhill. The stallion is frankly hideous. Your mare is *much* nicer than he is and deserves a much better stallion.


----------



## paintedpastures

LSurb1997 said:


> Sired by Two Golds Hollywood out of RJ Masters Melody. Intermediate reserve world champion APHA open yearling gelding.
> 
> AND then theres another one
> 
> HOLLYS HOT CHOCOLATE, APHA Weanling Intermediate Solid Bred World Champion...This baby showed like a dream!! She is so so sweet!!! She is also offered for sale.


 well looking at results of that show.....appears that was Only weanling entered or eligible for that "intermediate" out her weanling class so win by default ?? :| but of that regular open SPB weanling class was on the very bottom of her class in placings. 
Haven't seen pics of youngster & was probably above average to even consider taking to that level of show I would think.Was Great that owners took her out to promote & show her so that in itself is accomplishment & certainly give credit to!!overall results though speak themselves...
I agree with what others are saying stay away from real halter types but find more an all round or performance bred stud with sound & balanced conformation.:mrgreen:


----------



## Smilie

LSurb1997 said:


> Sired by Two Golds Hollywood out of RJ Masters Melody. Intermediate reserve world champion APHA open yearling gelding.
> 
> AND then theres another one
> 
> HOLLYS HOT CHOCOLATE, APHA Weanling Intermediate Solid Bred World Champion...This baby showed like a dream!! She is so so sweet!!! She is also offered for sale.


Regardless of breeding, those are titles at halter! You do't RIDE horses that age, so pointless, far as your original criteria.
WHERE ARE any performance horses by that stud?
That stud is old enough to have 'riders' out there-where are they?


----------



## Smilie

I've won weanling and yearling futurities, but with performance bred horses, that then went on to ride.
Point being, at the level you are going to be showing at, people in general, just show at halter, besides the riding classes they show in. This includes all breed type open shows, and regional breed level, except of course, even at the regional breed level, you get halter hroses that will never be ridden, as that is only what their owners show in.
Smilie, for instance, has OMBs both open aand non pro, ApHC in halter, western pl, hunter under saddle, trail. 
She won the International year end buckle (for Appaloosa horses shown outside of the USA,as in Canada and Europe, ect )both in halter and jr performance
You don't need a strict halter horse, to do well at halter, at open and regional levels, but You do need a performance horse, to reach your riding goals
Can't make it any clearer.


----------

