# Stupid ? about TBs



## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

This might sound really stupid, but I've always heard that Thoroughbreds should not be cross tied. Well, I cross tie both of mine and they've never had a problem. Is there a reason for this?


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Interesting question. I know of a few who cannot be in cross ties, although I have no idea why. Mine is fine in them as are other TBs at my barn. Maybe some of the racing barns never use them and the horses were just never trained that way?


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Never heard of something like this being breed specific. Doesn't make sense to me. Personality, training, history, care -- these would all make a difference, but breed?


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

NorthernMama said:


> Never heard of something like this being breed specific. Doesn't make sense to me. Personality, training, history, care -- these would all make a difference, but breed?


 That's pretty much my line of thought. I think it has something to do with how racehorses are tied on track or something?


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I can tell you why. TBs are abused horribly on the track and a lot of the abuse happens in the cross ties.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> I can tell you why. TBs are abused horribly on the track and a lot of the abuse happens in the cross ties.


 Are you sure this is the case? I don't think the majority are. I've actually never come across an OTTB in person who acted like they'd been abused.


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## Rides2win (Apr 8, 2011)

Probably a stereotype that tb's are hot headed and don't want to be tied down. Although I have herd of not being able to cross tie a horsee but not breed specific.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

TheLovedOne said:


> I can tell you why. TBs are abused horribly on the track and a lot of the abuse happens in the cross ties.


are you making this statement based on personal experience or what? i've never heard of abuse at the track be rampant enough to have people assume that TBs can't be cross tied.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> I can tell you why. TBs are abused horribly on the track and a lot of the abuse happens in the cross ties.


Yeah, kinda need some actual evidence if you're going to make a broad statement like that. My horse was stabled at Belmont and Saratoga. I think both of those tracks would take offense to your statement.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_Never heard of this to be honest. _

_I would expect it is more dependant on each individual horse. If you went out and bought an appy or a morgan or a perch who had never been in the crossties....you might not want to cross tie them right away either. They can be trained to stand there eventually._

_TheLovedOne--have you seen TB's abused in crossties, or is this just a rumour? Most people I know in the racing industry, albeit the Standardbred racing industry, don't try and draw attention to themselves in view of a lot of other people. Beating a horse in the cross ties would be a good way to get a fine. It's easier to do it in a stall where other people cant see what is going on..... <---not saying it happens, but just saying in general terms._


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## Sophie19 (Apr 13, 2009)

I cross tie my TB all the time and I have never had any problems. I don't know that I have ever seen a horse in cross ties at the race track. I've only been to the backside of Oaklawn and Keenland, but I have never seen any horse cross tied at either track. Maybe the rumor comes because they are not cross tied much in their racing days so they aren't used to it?


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I think that this is just one of those generalizations that come from uneducated folks who don't know how to properly retrain a horse, let alone a horse as high spirited as a Thoroughbred. I can understand "why" a TB wouldn't like being cross tied, as it is more clausterphobic than he would ever have been used to during his track life; but again, not something that, with time, patience, and understanding of how his mind is working, couldn't be gotten through. 

I agree with those that have stated, that it most likely isn't due to actual abuse; more the result of how he's trained, which is not like most of our everyday pleasure horses.


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## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

I'm not sure where i heard it, but i have heard that during their racing career they are not taught to cross tie so before you can cross tie them they need to be taught(like any other horse) how to cross tie so they don't spook and injure themselves or anyone standing near by


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Hmm, well - if this is true, don't tell Nelson...cause I don't want a ruin a good thing going


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

It is silly to say a breed can't do something. I believe it comes from the track, and they are not used to it - but it can be trained along with everything else they need to relearn. Lucas ties fine, and other than his dumb rear trying to follow me when I walk off, he is good as gold. It's just something that they are not used to doing, like standing for mounting, rein contact, leg contact, all of that. 

You would do a disservice to a TB to think that they cannot be retaught something.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

TheLovedOne said:


> I can tell you why. TBs are abused horribly on the track and a lot of the abuse happens in the cross ties.



Wow! Stereotype much? My horse was straight of the track and was not abused, as were my previous 3 OTTBs. Of course some were, but then so are many other horses. 

My horse was worth money, they did not hurt him because they wanted him to be sound to race. And because they were decent people.


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## VMorganW (Apr 3, 2011)

I don't know much about the breed but I just got my beautiful TB on the 24th and learned the hard way she can't be cross tied. She actually couldn't be tied at all in the begining. The first time I tied her I put her on a cross tie and she reared untill she broke it. (I couldn't get close because she kept rearing) She ties fine now. Like the other person who replied, I don't think it is breed specific I believe it has to do with the way they are trained. When horses feel a tight pressure their natural instinct is to pull until they get that release and with a cross tie they have pressure on both sides when they try and turn their heads so they panic. I also know the TB stable she came from(she was bred for racing) did not use cross ties.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Froggy ties whichever way I happen to tie him. He doesn't care for being tied but doesn't put up too much fuss. He hasn't been off the track that long.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

TheLovedOne said:


> I can tell you why. TBs are abused horribly on the track and a lot of the abuse happens in the cross ties.


Oh good lord. 
Some are abused, true. But it isn't the norm. I greatly dislike perpetuation of misinformation like this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

JustDressageIt said:


> Oh good lord.
> Some are abused, true. But it isn't the norm. I greatly dislike perpetuation of misinformation like this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Thank you! Even if you take the worst stance that they are just about the money, that means money earned so they don't want to mess this up. Of course cross tying is strange to them, doesn't mean they were abused.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

It's interesting, because in addition to the rumors you hear, Jenni, Excel and Molly's off track trainer, told me when I bought Excel that he doesn't cross tie. Well, like the dummy I am, I forgot, and cross tied him fine for months until I remembered what she'd said. But he's never had a problem, so I'm not sure why Jenni said that....maybe because he was never taught?


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

That's bull. Sorry but true. I have never heard that any one breed of horse cannot be cross tied. It's an awful stereotype to say something like that!

One of my TB's cross ties fine while the other does not like it. It varies from horse to horse!


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

JustDressageIt said:


> Oh good lord.
> Some are abused, true. But it isn't the norm. I greatly dislike perpetuation of misinformation like this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Clearly you have not spent anytime at the track.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Yes I am sure. I've known track trainers personally. Both my husband and I have spent time at the track in the barns. The things that are done to TBs at the track would make your toes curl. TBs are very sensitive horses and putting them in cross ties and doing whatever it takes to get something done is normal at the track. 

What do you want names of individuals maybe some video footage. Why don't you just go to the track and hang out and then you can see for yourself. Mornings are the best. Go at 6am and stay until noon. Then you'll have your eyes opened way up.

Of course people at the track would take huge offense that is no big surprise. As people become more aware of what happens there the harder it will be for them to continue doing what they are doing. The future of horse racing is not looking very good at the moment anyway.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Ok, so your personal experience with two track trainers and the way they treat their horses means that all TB's are put into cross ties and repeatedly whipped? Get another soap box...yours isn't very sturdy.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

TheLovedOne said:


> Clearly you have not spent anytime at the track.


Clearly you've spent time at some really shady low-end, bottom-of-the-barrel, race-em-for-the-$50-purse tracks. 
Abuse on the track isn't the norm, nor is it the norm to cross tie them to beat them.
Abuse happens sometimes, nobody is denying that, but you are using a blanket statement from your probably very limited experience(s). Some trainers can get rough, but most racehorses aren't abused.
What a lot of people take as signs of "abuse" with OTTBs is simply lack of training for the horse. They get fidgety standing to be groomed, or pin their ears when being groomed - not (usually) abuse, but instead the horse not being used to grooming for extended periods, or being thin-skinned. Shying from tack/a rider - not (usually) abuse, but they aren't expected to stand perfect for mounting.
Those horses are the trainer's livelihood. Some trainers make sure their horses eat well and skip a few meals themselves to make it happen. No doubt all trainers aren't like that, and there are some that abuse their horses, but once again and finally - it isn't the norm.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

TheLovedOne, I am not doubting that some horses are abused, but it is not the norm. Not one of the OTTBs I have owned has shown any sign of past abuse.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

TheLovedOne said:


> 1) putting them in cross ties and doing whatever it takes to get something done is normal at the track.
> 
> 2)Mornings are the best.
> 
> 3)The future of horse racing is not looking very good at the moment anyway.


1) Actually it isn't a very common practice to cross-tie TBs - they're mostly single tied in their stall. That's why its said to not cross tie a TB - rather, to introduce it slowly and make sure they understand the concept, not assume they know what cross-ties are. A lot don't, and DO freak out if they are just chucked in them. 
2) Yes, that's generally the best time to go to the track, when the training/exercise happens. 
3) Since when? Maybe for low-end tracks/trainers since its harder to dispose of their horses, but I'm fairly sure racing is still going strong....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ptvintage (Feb 12, 2010)

TheLovedOne said:


> Yes I am sure. I've known track trainers personally. Both my husband and I have spent time at the track in the barns. The things that are done to TBs at the track would make your toes curl. TBs are very sensitive horses and putting them in cross ties and doing whatever it takes to get something done is normal at the track.
> 
> What do you want names of individuals maybe some video footage. Why don't you just go to the track and hang out and then you can see for yourself. Mornings are the best. Go at 6am and stay until noon. Then you'll have your eyes opened way up.
> 
> Of course people at the track would take huge offense that is no big surprise. As people become more aware of what happens there the harder it will be for them to continue doing what they are doing. The future of horse racing is not looking very good at the moment anyway.


I spent a good 4 hour stretch of time at the track a few months ago (in the morning!), and I didn't see any abuse. 

What I did see was horses being handwalked, groomed, bathed, ridden, a goat hanging out with a horse, horses on hot walkers and horses on (gasp!) crossties.:shock:

My TB cross ties fine, and I've never had an issue, but another boarder at my barn informed me that TB's don't cross tie when I first arrived. She's got three OTTBs herself...:?. She's had her horses for years and in the time I've been at this barn, I've never seen her attempt to cross tie her horses. I think the real issue is her own insecurity about crosstying them.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

JDI I think you are making some assumptions here. I am only commenting on what I have actually seen. The two tracks in the area are Hastings Park and Cloverdale Raceway. I think the purses can be quite large and there are all sorts of people that are involved. Some people actually live in the stalls. 

As far as whipping in the cross ties - I didn't say that. Yes some horses are beaten even with chains but I don't think abuse necessarily involves beating. These horses are forced to do a lot of stuff and they are mostly confined. They spend all of their time in a stall and it drives them crazy. Then they are taken out for a couple of hours each day where a human forces them to take a bath, run on a track, walk on a hot walker, etc. There are some people who are better than others of course. Believe whatever you want to but I have seen for myself and I don't understand why my comments are so upsetting. It should be more upsetting that it is happening.

Cross ties are very common at the track and also tying to rings in the stall. Horse racing has been declining for the past two years.


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## Azale1 (Jul 5, 2010)

I have never heard of anything like this before. Being crosstied is nothing breed specific it is simply training.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Yes I agree with whoever it was that said cross tying is very claustrophobic and TBs are very sensitive. To say that they won't cross tie should probably be reworded to it can be a challenge to teach them to cross tie. Maybe some people don't want to bother.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> Yes I agree with whoever it was that said cross tying is very claustrophobic and TBs are very sensitive. To say that they won't cross tie should probably be reworded to it can be a challenge to teach them to cross tie. Maybe some people don't want to bother.


That was me; and that's a general statement really; I've not just experienced TBs who are scared of the crosstie (again, a training, issue, "NOT necessarily an abuse related one), and if you take the time to show them what is expected, and do it at a rate they they aren't pushed out of their comfort zone and into their reactive zone, any horse will catch onto it. I think those who have said that TB's can't be crosstied, just don't have the knowledge about horse behavior, to actually "tell" the horse otherwise...if the owner is afraid of it, how is the horse going to react? Afraid, and reactive. If, like in this thread, the owner just goes about it nonchalantly, chances are, the horse will most likely think nothing of it. Yes, there are those that will still need more training to overcome it, but that's OUR jobs to do as owners and trainers...you can't expect more out of a horse than he's already been taught to do.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Clearly our definitions of "abuse" differ greatly, TLO. That's racetrack life. They get treated a hell of a lot better than some horses even owned by members of this forum. There are worse things in life than *gasp* living in a stall during one's racing career. I'm thinking it doesn't take much to make some people cry "abuse."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

I've handled several OTTB's and none had issues with cross ties. In fact, I love dealing with them because they are exposed to so much when racing that not much bothers them.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> Clearly our definitions of "abuse" differ greatly, TLO. That's racetrack life. They get treated a hell of a lot better than some horses even owned by members of this forum. There are worse things in life than *gasp* living in a stall during one's racing career. I'm thinking it doesn't take much to make some people cry "abuse."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am with you on that one.

I have spent some time (not near as much as others) at the track near me. A friend of the family has race horses (his whole family races).
He loves his horses. But they are certainly not big pets to him. They are all well taken care of and most certainly not abused.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

A stall is to a horse what a small jail cell is to a human: would JDI & alwaysbehind agree? 

A small box for the body to be confined in; then the type of body must be added to the equation: the horse is designed to travel 20-30 miles a day. The circulatory system, the gut system, etc. depend upon this nomadic "lifestyle", as well as the emotional makeup of the horse.

I don't scoff at the idea that extended periods of being stalled is abuse, therefore. A couple hours a day out of the stall is pushing it, imo.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Agreed Northern.

Well if OTTBs get such a great start in their lives why is it that it takes months to years to get them to become good riding horses. Why is it that when I see the occassional one on the trail that the owners are terrified if they see someone riding with a stick. I'm not saying that OTTBs can't be rehabed of course they can (but not all of them) I've done it and rode my mare all over the place. But to say that the track is a great place is completely untrue. 

I think that we are polar opposites JDI. I don't care if these track people make a living working at the track. In fact, most of them don't report their income so they don't pay any tax and also many of them (those not supported by spouses) later rely on government programs to support them. So I say get real skills and get a real job that contributes to the GDP.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Northern said:


> A stall is to a horse what a small jail cell is to a human: would JDI & alwaysbehind agree?


No. .


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Interesting Northern, so I take it you have endless land to let your horses roam? According to your own statements, unless you allow your horses to roam 20-30 miles a day, you shouldn't have any because it's cruel and unusual punishment to keep them pastured.

The horses we have today are _domestic_ stock. They're no more related to Przewalski's Horse than they are to zebras on the African plains.

I am in no way, shape or form, afraid of my TB. He's the most laid back, calm horse I've ever owned. He's an ex racer, and from what I understand, JJ is the NORM for ex racers, not the exception. 

As far as you ranting about people on public assistance TLO, that's another argument for another day and thread.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

SR it is so completely obvious that horses need turnout everyday to be content. Why do they give TBs at the track tranquilizer pills everyday to keep them "calm" in their stalls. I guess until we have laws that prevent people from confining horses to stalls people will continue to do it. Just like so many other things in our society. Sad that people can't be more reasonable.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I totally missed TheLovedOne's comments about people at the track not being honest about their income and being supported by their spouse.

I am not saying there are not people at the track who perpetrate this fraud, but it is not a generalization that holds true for the majority of people any more than it works for generalizing any other group of people.

Good try though.




TheLovedOne said:


> SR it is so completely obvious that horses need turnout everyday to be content. Why do they give TBs at the track tranquilizer pills everyday to keep them "calm" in their stalls. I guess until we have laws that prevent people from confining horses to stalls people will continue to do it. Just like so many other things in our society. Sad that people can't be more reasonable.


Tranquilizer pills? You are just too funny (not ha ha funny either) and obviously your only purpose is to make waves.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> Why do they give TBs at the track tranquilizer pills everyday to keep them "calm" in their stalls. I guess until we have laws that prevent people from confining horses to stalls people will continue to do it. Just like so many other things in our society. Sad that people can't be more reasonable.



Really? And what 'tranquilizers' would those be? Since you seem to believe you know everything there is to know about all racetracks, trainers, and race horses, you should know what they're juicing their animals with.

I don't 'confine' my horses to their stalls unless the weather's bad. Mine are on 24/7 turnout most of the time, because I believe it's good for horses to be out and moving about. Unfortunately, not everyone has their own land, and some horses do have to be stalled for longer periods of time.

I hardly think keeping a horse in a stall is akin to abuse such as starvation, mistreatment and regular beatings, but what do I know? I've only had horses for 33 years.

For whatever reason, you have a burr up your butt about the racing industry. Your hateful, overblown generalizations are NOT the norm, even though you'd have us believe otherwise. If they _were_ the norm, the majority of TBs coming off the track would be useless as riding horses. Which we know isn't anywhere in the same universe as the truth.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

AB there are people who even post about tranqs. It is a well known fact and I hate to break it to you but most of the workers at the track are kinda of shady. Let's see an industry based on gambling oh ya that brings out the most upstanding individuals. 

AB please refrain from talking down to me. You are free to state your opinion and I am too. These are my opinions and my experiences.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Northern said:


> A stall is to a horse what a small jail cell is to a human


I agree to a point. There are horses who thrive on stall time, depending on how they were raised. But I do feel that stall time for horses, longer than a few hours a day, is unhealthy. Joint wise, digestive wise and mental wise. 

Yes, they are meant to roam and graze continulously, that is how they are designed - regardless if they are Wild Mustangs, or a $100,000 WB. Domesticated or not - a horse is a horse, they are designed to move and graze throughout the day and night. But you don't need 30 acres to do so. 

Leaving a horse cooped up in a stall for long periods of time, can lead to health issues, and mental issues in the long run.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> For whatever reason, you have a burr up your butt about the racing industry. Your hateful, overblown generalizations are NOT the norm, even though you'd have us believe otherwise. If they _were_ the norm, the majority of TBs coming off the track would be useless as riding horses. Which we know isn't anywhere in the same universe as the truth.


Is this really necessary. This forum is for people to relate their experiences, exchange ideas and opinions. I am not hateful and I would appreciate it if you could control your temper.

I know lots of people who do not want TBs or standardbreds for this reason. In fact, it is really hard to even give away a TB or SB right now. But maybe I'm making that up too.


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

I wish horses could speak English so they could TELL us (and any idiot could understand them) how they really felt about what we do to/with them.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

TheLastUnicorn said:


> I wish horses could speak English so they could TELL us (and any idiot could understand them) how they really felt about what we do to/with them.


LOL RIGHT! Wouldn't that make everything much easier.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> Is this really necessary. This forum is for people to relate their experiences, exchange ideas and opinions. I am not hateful and I would appreciate it if you could control your temper.
> 
> I know lots of people who do not want TBs or standardbreds for this reason. In fact, it is really hard to even give away a TB or SB right now. But maybe I'm making that up too.


Are _your_ bigoted generalizations necessary? Everything you've stated just shows me how narrow minded you are.

I'm not angry in the slightest. You're the one who's showing a boatload of anger by being intolerant, and using sweeping generalizations to denigrate an entire industry. 

You know 'lots' of people who don't want TBs/STBs in the way you know 'lots' of race trainers who tranq and beat their horses regularly? _Sure_ you do. 

It's _not_ difficult to give away those horses, it's simply that the supply far exceeds the demand,* just like QHs*. The majority of horses in the kill pens are TBs and QHs, because they're a glut on the market.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Goodness gracious! 
(Great balls of fire?)
Um. I don't agree with horses being kept in stalls 24/7 - but they aren't cooped up their entire lives - just their racing careers. They're handwalked daily. They exercise on the track almost daily. They're not kept in their stalls 24/7. While I don't like horses being stalled that long, it is a far cry from abuse - I wouldn't even call it anything NEAR that.
They're treated better, taken care of better than a LOT of horses. I mean their diets are kept up tons better than most horses. They're ATHLETES! 
They're treated a lot better than a good percentage of horses will ever be. 
Tranqued? Isn't that against everything a person wants in a racehorse? Lethargy isn't a great thing on the track, last I heard. There are some crappy tracks/trainers/owners/barns/etc out there. They are NOT the norm. It sure isn't all rainbows and butterflies, talking with your horse, asking them to do their bestest, but you'll love them no matter what - but the majority of TBs are NOT abused. 
Again, I really think my opinion of "abuse" greatly differs from some peoples' perception.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> Are _your_ bigoted generalizations necessary? Everything you've stated just shows me how narrow minded you are.
> 
> I'm not angry in the slightest. You're the one who's showing a boatload of anger by being intolerant, and using sweeping generalizations to denigrate an entire industry.
> 
> ...


Amen!! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shasta1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

I've always cross tied the TB's I've worked with as well as my own and have never had a problem. I have never trained an OTTB straight off track though. I could see there being some kind of training needed for it if they don't teach them that at the track.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> Are _your_ bigoted generalizations necessary? Everything you've stated just shows me how narrow minded you are.


Why do you continue to insult me. I am not insulting you. You're welcome to your opinion and sharing your experiences. Why would I not be.


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

JustDressageIt said:


> Goodness gracious!
> (Great balls of fire?)
> Um. I don't agree with horses being kept in stalls 24/7 - but they aren't cooped up their entire lives - just their racing careers. They're handwalked daily. They exercise on the track almost daily. They're not kept in their stalls 24/7. While I don't like horses being stalled that long, it is a far cry from abuse - I wouldn't even call it anything NEAR that.
> They're treated better, taken care of better than a LOT of horses. I mean their diets are kept up tons better than most horses. They're ATHLETES!
> ...


I wasn't going to comment again... but here's a thought for people.

TB's off the track have a certain repuation for some very serious neurotic behaviors, ulcers in their digestive tracts and some dangerous behavior vices. 

Could it not be assumed that these things are all caused by the "non abusive" tendency to keep these horses stalled with the exception of workouts and hand walks? (and hey... it's not even restricted to horses off the track... I've seen many of the same behaviors in horses kept stalled in dressage barns, jumper barns etc... anywhere there isn't an abundance of land to keep horses together on pasture)

How about how many of these off the track horses have HUGE issues learning to be social (again or for the first time, depending on how they were raised). Does that not "hurt" them on some level?

I've boarded a few off the track STB's and TB's (never owned one myself)... all of them have had some issue adjusting that my horses raised with other horses, on large pasture together have never had. The last one we brought in took 3 days to learn how to graze in a field - he just stood in the middle of all this green grass and didn't have a clue what to do - talk about SAD! 

They've all had odd behaviors and quirks, ranging from "cute" to downright dangerous ... I have started to kind of view them a bit as mentally abused children/teens - as they "grow up" and relearn about life and discover "who" they are, they can often overcome these issues (though some never do.. I know many TB's who have never gotten over their cribbing, stall weaving, stall kicking etc.... all habits learned while locked in a stall most of the day). 

Not abuse... ? Well... again, I think it would be really interesting to hear what the horses have to say - if only they could speak a language we could ALL understand.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Northern said:


> A stall is to a horse what a small jail cell is to a human: would JDI & alwaysbehind agree?


 I've never thought about it that way. My one horse is a 23-yr old gelding who rarely come out of his free-access stall for pasture time. That's by his choice. If I shove him out to clean his stall, he'll try to worm his way back in. Obviously he doesn't view his stall as a jail cell. I would compare it instead to their "bedroom". They sleep in there, stay in when the weather's crappy, maybe eat in there, but living in it for a long period of time starts to feel confining.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

TLO, do you not see your generalizations?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

TheLastUnicorn said:


> Could it not be assumed that these things are all caused by the "non abusive" tendency to keep these horses stalled with the exception of workouts and hand walks?


Unicorn, you do not the old saying about assuming don't you?



TheLastUnicorn said:


> TB's off the track have a certain repuation for some very serious neurotic behaviors, ulcers in their digestive tracts and some dangerous behavior vices.


I live in an area where a very large chunk of people ride TBs. (Near a track in other words.)

Hunter riders do not want horses that have dangerous behavior vices and are neurotic, so if your assumption was true then it would stand to reason that the hunter barns would not be filled with OTTBs. 
But go to any of the hunter barns in this area and you will find OTTBs doing everything from up downer lessons to novice adult rides.

I do not think anyone is saying that being a track horse is an easy life. Heck, being an event horse, a reiner, a show hunter, a ranch horse, etc is not an easy life either. Heck, working for your living sucks on all fronts. Even for us humans.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

corinowalk said:


> TLO, do you not see your generalizations?


Just because you or others don't like what I'm saying does not make me a bigot, narrow minded or a liar. Sometimes the truth is hard to hear and people react to it. Again I am only sharing my own experience.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Like I said, I don't agree with full time stalling, but I certainly don't see it as abuse, and again - the horses are VERY well cared for. Is it the best solution? Nah, but I don't think it's abusive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

You making broad generalization does not make them facts. Just saying. Like you said:



TheLovedOne said:


> Sometimes the truth is hard to hear and people react to it. Again I am only sharing my own experience.


 :wink: 

​​


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## HeroMyOttb (Dec 28, 2009)

When I got my OTTB my trainer that used to be a racehorse trainer said that racehorses supposely never went into the cross ties. Don't know why. So when I first got my horse off the track I had to watch him carefully for the first few days in the cross ties but he was fine with it like all the other OTTBs at my barn. EXCEPT there is one that cant stand them!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

TheLovedOne said:


> Just because you or others don't like what I'm saying does not make me a bigot, narrow minded or a liar. Sometimes the truth is hard to hear and people react to it. Again I am only sharing my own experience.


You are making sweeping generalizations about the ENTIRE industry due to your VERY limited experience. How do you not see that as being narrow-minded? You are placing judgment an entire industry based on your limited knowledge, and won't admit that you might just be slightly misguided in that notion. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> You are making sweeping generalizations about the ENTIRE industry due to your VERY limited experience. How do you not see that as being narrow-minded and placing judgment an entire industry based on your limited knowledge?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Silly JDI. Because she just knows she is right and we are wrong. She does not have to have real experience with large quantities of TBs off the track or such.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Silly JDI. Because she just knows she is right and we are wrong. She does not have to have real experience with large quantities of TBs off the track or such.


I suppose I can empathize to a point - I mean certain trainers/training types have left a bad taste in my mouth - not going to name names.... But that's distaste for certain trainers, not an entire discipline/industry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

TheLovedOne said:


> As far as whipping in the cross ties - I didn't say that. Yes some horses are beaten even with chains but I don't think abuse necessarily involves beating. These horses are forced to do a lot of stuff and they are mostly confined. They spend all of their time in a stall and it drives them crazy. Then they are taken out for a couple of hours each day where a human forces them to take a bath, run on a track, walk on a hot walker, etc. There are some people who are better than others of course. Believe whatever you want to but I have seen for myself and I don't understand why my comments are so upsetting. It should be more upsetting that it is happening.
> 
> Cross ties are very common at the track and also tying to rings in the stall. Horse racing has been declining for the past two years.


_My grandparents have stalled their horses for years and have worked for several big name trainers. We have never had a horse that went crazy from being stalled. Ever. Gramma and Grandpa have been training horses for over 40 years. I've been helping them since I was able to, and have been around race tracks since I was 5. I have only ever known of one incident of someone whipping their horse (and it wasnt in the crossties either). ONE! During the summer, I was probably at the races 3-4 times a week sometimes, and still have only seen such an incidence happen one time...._

_If horse racing is declining, then why is it so much harder to get into races on a weekly basis (STB's) now then it was a few years ago? If there wasn't so many horses racing, then it would be easy, and cards wouldn't be full. But they are....and tracks are adding extra days to accomodate all the extra horses. _

_So its bad that the horse is getting more excercise then probably what some of our horses get, and are fit as a fiddle?_



TheLovedOne said:


> . In fact, most of them don't report their income so they don't pay any tax and also many of them (those not supported by spouses) later rely on government programs to support them. So I say get real skills and get a real job that contributes to the GDP.


_Hmm...so that pile of papers that Gramma is going through right now with her accountant would be just some other junk then? And what about all those years that they struggled to get by and possibly could have been able to get welfare...they chose to struggle._



TheLovedOne said:


> AB there are people who even post about tranqs. It is a well known fact and I hate to break it to you but most of the workers at the track are kinda of shady. Let's see an industry based on gambling oh ya that brings out the most upstanding individuals.


_Last time I checked....I was not a shady person. I was well respected, just as my grandparents are, around the tracks. I was well known enough that strangers who didn't know me, would ask for me to groom for them on nights that I was there to watch racing...because they knew I would do a good job, be a good rate, and not slip the horses anything._

_And guess what? Around here, those people gambling...they contribute to the purse, as well as some of the money going back into the town. How is that a bad thing?_


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

VelvetsAB said:


> _And guess what? Around here, those people gambling...they contribute to the purse, as well as some of the money going back into the town. How is that a bad thing?_


Thank you Velvets, for the real perspective from someone who actually _has_ a racing background.

I hope TLO isn't a lottery player, since that's considered gambling, too.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Wow. I didn't even SEE the comment about tax evasion. I'm guessing that's also based on the two people they know...? 
Goodness. 
Velvets, thanks for weighing in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Azale1 (Jul 5, 2010)

Ok after watching this post for the past couple of hours it has got me really urked. I have worked on the backside for a total of 5 years and have worked for numerous training farms. I have worked for several trainers, both on the low end and high end of racing. And I have NEVER seen a horse beat, mistreated, or be tranqualized as one person is led to believe. If anything it drove me nuts that many of the trainers wouldn't even allow me do small discipline for having bad manners, such as if a horse would try to shove on me I couldn't smack them because they saw that as abuse. If anything these horses are treated better than I have seen anywhere else, I have worked for many other show stables, boarding stables and even my own horse I couldn't treat better than track horses. They are walked, worked, and walked again in the afternoons on a daily basis, their legs are kept protected, they have top quality hay 24/7, stalls are cleaned 2-3 times on a daily basis, and always have multiple people to handle their every need and want. For a Thoroughbred to not know what grazing is is ridiculous because they are hand grazed multiple times a week.

I have also trained myself and helped other people train OTTB's and after having a few months off the track to settle down the race brain they are some wonderful animals and very much in demand for the athleticism, stamina, and heart. Everyone of them yes does need to be retrained because racing does use different training than normal riding, but with patience and understanding of how they are trained to race it is an easy fix.

Am I saying that their are not bad trainers in the racing world no, because that in itself would be a lie, BUT there are bad trainers in every discipline in the horse world. But I can tell you the good ones FAR outwea the bad ones.

Also every trainer and ever farm I worked at I had to pay taxes on my check along with everyone else. And the whole gambling part, yeah I gambled and so did many of the others but that doesn't make us grubby people. There are many good people who work with the animals because they love them and they love the work. They wouldn't be so commited to these animals if they didn't. It is a rough life getting up 7 days a week at 4am to be at the barn by 430 ready to work. No vacation time, no sick time, rain, snow, sun, holidays. I had to work 2 fulltime jobs to make ends meet. This one and another. Many others can't even manage that and they live in the stalls or tack rooms. But that doesn't make them bad people. They do it because they love it and the horses.

I think that before you begin talking about something so firmly you should have all of your facts straight and have extensive experience more than just a handful of horses before you can come up with a real opinion.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Look you guys I am talking about my own experience as I have said several times and won't repeat it again. I have been around two tracks and it is not just a couple of trainers or a couple of visits it is more than that. I am not a track trainer/groomer/exerciser etc I have no interest in it and never will. I can only talk about the people that I know that were honest about how much money they made and the other people there that were making so little that they probably wouldn't have to pay taxes anyways. The whole tax thing is a little more complicated and I promise not to go into detail about that. 

I think it's great if anyone has seen something to the contrary. I am not insulting you and calling you liars. This is what I have seen and that's it. I am not saying you have limited experience wow I'm gonna go cry my eyes out now. Whatever.

All I can say is poor racing horses. Are there good trainers yes but I think the bad is much greater, sadly, than the good. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I want to thank *MI Eventer* for a reasonable post about the effects of stabling a horse, pointing out that a domestic horse has the same circulatory/gut/emotional system as a Mustang.

Re: the poster who said that her horse liked its stall; yes, I've seen that phenomenon. However, if the horse *wants* to get out & move around, get some sun & air, socialize, graze, etc., but the door is shut, the picture is totally different.

I want to say a word about the snark displayed here against TLO: INAPPROPRIATE! * Regardless* of who has the facts, the bashing of TLO here has been disgusting!

Plus, AB, a polite post gives a reason for an answer, rather than just says, "yes" or "no". Your "answer" to me was just "No.". That's a real communication STOPPER.


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Unicorn, you do not the old saying about assuming don't you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure I do.

I also realize that many OTTB's go on to be amazing horses - but there is no denying that the industry also produces some of the most "interesting" behavioral issues as well. 

I wasn't saying that OTTB's are all neurotic, just that I've seen some really odd behaviors from horses off the track, especially newly off the track horses. 

We have a lot of TB's in our area too... on various ends of the scale for vices. Most are now having careers as hunter/jumpers... I've seen some AMAZING progress in most of those I know personally, but quite a few had dangerous vices when they were in the early stages of their relationship - which only shows how forgiving and adaptable they are. I have nothing at all against the TB, nor anything against the racing industry (so yeah... I mentioned the race industry - the OP's horse is an OTTB - but really it applies to all equine industries that allow for little to no social turnout time). 

My only real thought is that a stalled life is a completely unnatural life for a horse - it goes against the way they are designed... so I can absolutely see how it could be conceived to be "abusive" to keep them so. It has been proven to cause harm to some horses (not all who live that lifestyle or it wouldn't be done at all... but then not all people function in society either and prefer/thrive alone) - both mentally and physically. 

I'm not saying I agree with the sentiment that the race industry is abusive... but I definitely think it's worth the time for people to take a look at what they are asking (in it's entirety - not just the "work" part, but the whole lifestyle) of the animals we chose to keep.... how far from their natural state they are, especially when questioning training problems.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

My problem is that TLO is making blanket statements about the ENITIRE industry, and will not back down on her BLANKET statements whatsoever when there are many people offering statements straight from the horse's mouth to the contrary. She herself hasn't been without her judgments or snark.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GeminiJumper (Jun 12, 2008)

No, the breed Thoroughbred is not known to be horrible in cross ties. Its the hands that the Thoroughbred falls into that causes that one horse to possibly be terrible in cross ties. People don't breed "horrible cross tiers" into Thoroughbreds. Every horse is an individual.

I believe this statement is given by people who've had limited experience with horses and blame it on the breed.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

JustDressageIt said:


> My problem is that TLO is making blanket statements about the ENITIRE industry, and will not back down on her BLANKET statements whatsoever when there are many people offering statements straight from the horse's mouth to the contrary. She herself hasn't been without her judgments or snark.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What are you talking about. Your statement is just ridiculous and doesn't warrant any further comment or consideration.


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

MyBoyPuck said:


> Yeah, kinda need some actual evidence if you're going to make a broad statement like that. My horse was stabled at Belmont and Saratoga. I think both of those tracks would take offense to your statement.


 
For all of you that need evidence of this... I have an OTTB that was neglected off track, but has problems with farriers (as I posted on her not too long ago) because of bad experiences on track. He has other little glitches as well from this. However, I will NOT "blanket" and say that ALL are mistreated.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Statements like that are exactly what I'm talking about - TLO hasn't been without condecention or snark throughout this conversation, and it's quite irksome that her condescention/snark can be overlooked, but not others. 
You refuse to see what's wrong with your completely blanket statement about the industry. You came in here guns a' blazin' because you thought the entire racing industry is shameful, and then made several other ludacrous blanket statements from your very LIMITED knowledge. People with much more practical knowledge came into the discussion offering their real-life experience, but no matter what, you're sticking to your guns that the entire industry should be condemned. 
Then you say stuff like "this statement is so ridiculous that it doesn't warrant any further comment or consideration" - quite offensive, if I could be offended by such a thing - and wonder why people are being slightly snarky back to you.
Anyways. I've said all that I can possibly say in this thread and then some.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Yes you sure have said everything you could and more JDI. I wonder why it is that you know what my experience is - do you know me personally. No you don't. 

I have not made blanket statements. I have referenced my own experiences and that is it.


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## Arksly (Mar 13, 2010)

@TheLovedOne

I think the reason you got such a negative reaction is because you said the reason that OTTB's had troubles in cross-ties was because they were "abused horribly on the track and a lot of the abuse happens in the cross ties." That's a pretty bold statement for anyone. You didn't explain your experiences or even say, "In my experience". Just something to think about.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Meh. My only OTTB experiences have been with one mare who broke her wither in the starting gate and was saved by her trainer. The other experience has been with Froggy. He is pretty vice free and he certainly wasn't coming from some high brow racing stable. He is stabled out now with a run in and would probably much prefer a stall. He has no farrier issues other than being a typical TB with somewhat shelly feet. The worst problem I have had with him is find a saddle that fits his narrow, high withered frame. He isn't head shy...quite the opposite. Heck, he isn't even afraid of a whip. 

So that being my experience and how others base their opinions on a handful of experiences...all OTTB's are nice, quiet, kind, great trail horses, sound after 6 years on the track, easy to work with, stall loving, cow loving, people loving, non treat eating horses. Thats *my* story and I am sticking to it.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I held Trainers' Licenses in 4 states before moving to Oklahoma and held a trainers' license here when I first moved here. To be very honest, I cannot recall very many cases of abuse on the backside. I knew of grooms being fired for a single incident of hitting or kicking a horse in temper. I cannot recall a single trainer that had cross ties in which to fasten a horse. Every stall at every track I trained or worked at had a chain with a snap hanging on the center of the left stall wall. Horses were only fastened to that chain. They were never put in cross ties or tied solidly outside of their stalls. They could not set back in their stalls when tied to that chain because their butt would hit the other stall wall before the chain tightened. That is where horses were groomed and tacked up, legs were done up -- everything was done there and not in cross ties.

On race day, many horses were muzzled and tied to the door jam with a chain and snap. Again, they cold not set back without bumping into the back wall first.

For many years in the 60s and in the 70s, I started about 25 race colts every fall and winter. I leased and stood at stud 2 TB horses owned by Faraway Farms in Lexington. One held a North American Track Record and the other was a Classic winner. He had won the Travers Stakes at Saratoga. So, I am not talking about theories or ideas. I've been there and done that and have the win potos to prove it. All of my TB horses were broke to tie just like my western horses are now. But, I was in a minority. Most trainers were so afraid that their horses, that were so valuable and fed up to be pretty silly, would hurt themselves, so they were never tied solidly much less put in cross ties.

Like any other horse, TBs have to be taught to be tied solidly and they have to be taught to stand quietly in cross ties. I always thought they would be much easier to handle, given their high state of race rediness, if they were taught to tie. The problem with many TBs is that when they panic they go into 'self-destruct' mode. You DO have to be more careful with them and gradually show them that they can be restrained by a lead-rope or cross ties. This is very easy to understand if you consider that they have been bred for centuries for speed and speed only. So, a good many lines are not real sensible. Being sensible is not real high on the list of importance. Whereas reining horses and cutting horses HAVE to be bred for trainability and can be selected for mating accordingly, TBs only have to be fast and retire with 4 legs. The 4 legs do not even have to be sound, but breeders in recent years have been paying much more attention to soundness. 

So YES! TBs can require more patience and not be pushed as hard and some are, in fact, more neurotic and high strung. Being bred for speed and speed only has done that to many of them. A kind, laid back, easy going race horse is probably not going to win a lot of stakes races. The fact that many are high strung might lead someone that did not know any better to think those horses had been abused. In fact, they would be worse than basket cases had they ever been abused on top of being a little neurotic anyway. 

In my experience, race horses are fed and conditioned to be crazy, are confined and then cussed because they are crazy. But, to have one 'fire' and put the amount of try and heart into a race, they have to be at that level of 'high' and race rediness. So, you have to be extra careful with them. This is also why a 'letdown' period is so important if you want to retrain one. You have to get all of the steroids and blood builders out of their systems. You have to get their energy level down and you have to just give them some time to 'let down'. 

Given all of this, there is a lot of difference in race trainers. Some spend more time putting a good foundation in them and they have very good manners like mine always did. Other trainers -- not so much. Quarter Horse trainers teach more acceptance of things like tying, but are actually worse about putting in as good a background in them when they ride them. I've retrained probably equal numbers of QHs and TBs and found the QHs were MORE lacking in basic schooling under saddle.

But for anyone to be taken seriously that makes a blanket statement like TLO did just shows their total ignorance of the industry. To say they're abused in cross ties just makes me sit here and shake my head. That statement shows not only ignorance, but a total lack of any credibility.

Oh, and by the way, I do not know what your experience is, but I sure know what it isn't. I does not include any real time or experience at the backside of a race track.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

That was a very good post from your experience cherie, thank you!!!


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## Jessskater (Mar 16, 2011)

At my old stable I would cross tie my TB and she would get really nervous. No idea why but I don't have crossties at home


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Great post, cherie. That's awesome you got to work hands-on with stakes winners!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Thank you for the great posts by all the people who have worked at the track!





TheLastUnicorn said:


> My only real thought is that a stalled life is a completely unnatural life for a horse - it goes against the way they are designed... so I can absolutely see how it could be conceived to be "abusive" to keep them so. It has been proven to cause harm to some horses (not all who live that lifestyle or it wouldn't be done at all... but then not all people function in society either and prefer/thrive alone) - both mentally and physically.


On this theme, being ridden is unnatural too. It can cause harm to some horses.
Heck, being kept inside a fenced enclosure is unnatural and it too can cause harm.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

TheLovedOne said:


> I can tell you why. TBs are abused horribly on the track and a lot of the abuse happens in the cross ties.


That seems like a pretty generalized statement to me. But perhaps im just being bully and finding every excuse to pick on poor wittle TLO


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Northern said:


> I want to say a word about the snark displayed here against TLO: INAPPROPRIATE! * Regardless* of who has the facts, the bashing of TLO here has been disgusting!


Really? And TLO's snark, inappropriate behaviour, and bashing of others isn't just as disgusting? Pot, meet kettle. :roll:

So it doesn't matter if TLO's statements are all a bunch of bull pucky, bigoted, and mean spirited tripe? No matter what you and TLO_ think_, *THE FACTS* are what matter in this, not what someone merely _wants_ to believe.

SHE'S the one making sweeping, blanket statements about an entire industry based on her _admitted_ limited experiences, and yet you feel somehow _she's_ allowed to be a slanted, hateful bigot, while those with_ real_ experience who are posting informative, inciteful statements are the ones who are being nasty?

Get a grip, Northern. Either TLO is your alter, or she's a BFF, because otherwise I can't see you defending her hateful generalizations.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

TheLovedOne said:


> The things that are done to TBs at the track would make your toes curl. TBs are very sensitive horses and putting them in cross ties and doing whatever it takes to get something done is normal at the track.
> 
> Why don't you just go to the track and hang out and then you can see for yourself. Mornings are the best. Go at 6am and stay until noon. Then you'll have your eyes opened way up.
> 
> Of course people at the track would take huge offense that is no big surprise. As people become more aware of what happens there the harder it will be for them to continue doing what they are doing. The future of horse racing is not looking very good at the moment anyway.


Generalization 



TheLovedOne said:


> Why do they give TBs at the track tranquilizer pills everyday to keep them "calm" in their stalls. I guess until we have laws that prevent people from confining horses to stalls people will continue to do it. Just like so many other things in our society. Sad that people can't be more reasonable.


Generalization



TheLovedOne said:


> It is a well known fact and I hate to break it to you but most of the workers at the track are kinda of shady. Let's see an industry based on gambling oh ya that brings out the most upstanding individuals.


Generalization


If you are infact just talking about your own experinces try wording it differently like for example. _"From what i have seen most of the workers at the tracks i have been too are kinda shady"_ or _"There are things being done at the tracks I have been too that would make your toes curl"_

With that being said, just because you have one bad apple doesn't make the rest of them bad. First impressions/experiences make or break how you feel about certain things. Its clear your first experiences with the racing industry have been bad. It is also clear your perception of abuse is _much_ broader then a lot of the people posting on this thread. At the University our 300+ horses are stalled 24/7 unless a student decides to turn them out in a dirt pen for an hour or so, and they are just fine. 

You also must realize a race horse is a _huge_ investment. Millions of dollars are at stake with high quality race horses, risking their "investment" with drugs, bad trainers, etc...isnt in the best interest of the owner. They are going to make sure that horse gets the best food, facilities, trainer, groomer, etc etc.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Cherie said:


> I find the statement about TBs from TLO to be 'almost' too stupid to comment on, but I find that I must.
> 
> I held Trainers' Licenses in 4 states before moving to Oklahoma and held a trainers' license here when I first moved here. To be very honest, I cannot recall very many cases of abuse on the backside. I knew of grooms being fired for a single incident of hitting or kicking a horse in temper. I cannot recall a single trainer that had cross ties in which to fasten a horse. Every stall at every track I trained or worked at had a chain with a snap hanging on the center of the left stall wall. Horses were only fastened to that chain. They were never put in cross ties or tied solidly outside of their stalls. They could not set back in their stalls when tied to that chain because their butt would hit the other stall wall before the chain tightened. That is where horses were groomed and tacked up, legs were done up -- everything was done there and not in cross ties.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing your experiences, Cherie. Great post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I think its about the time to close the thread.


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