# Is Barn neglect horse neglect?



## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

YES. If my horse was kept in those conditions I would be moving him out immediately and taking down evidence of neglect. If anything, it is horse neglect first and barn second. Planks can be replaced, water buckets can be scrubbed, but it will take a little more to get rid of a nasty hoof abscess or a hazardous digestive system sickness. Also, when horses are kept in their own waste they start to inhale the methane and ammonia and they weaken. Horses that are over-fed can stress out their joints, endanger their heart health, and founder. Absolutely, such living conditions are unacceptable.


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## travlingypsy (Apr 5, 2008)

Oh good someone agrees with me!!! Im going to get pictures of this place..The knee deep horses and the ponds in their paddocks. Ill get pics of the stalls to and then im reporting it to the Animal control. 

I feel really bad for one horse because she never gets turned out. She just has a stall with a run.


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## rissaxbmth (Feb 2, 2010)

Barn neglect is kind of the same as horse neglect. If the barn conditions are bad then it can cause trouble for your horse and the stalls not being cleaned is considered horse abuse. Imagine standing in your own waste for days, thats just nasty. It could also be unsafe for your horse if repairs aren't made to fences that are broke (if they won't clean stalls they will not fix repairs). I would want my horse at the cleanest facility possible and I have turned down many barns. I have seen one time a boarding facility neglecting its barn and horses and the boarders all got their horses taken away by the humane society.

I wouldn't feed my horse a huge diet. Its not abuse but it can cause foundering.


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## travlingypsy (Apr 5, 2008)

rissaxbmth- Ya your right cause a couple times horses would kick out the panels between the stalls and those would take days to get fixed. They are lucky a horse didnt get its leg caught. 

So far a boarder is moving her horses out, YAY! And my horse isnt there. Im just waiting for the right time to quit or get fired. Only working there 2 days a week just waiting till i find a new job. But im busting the cap on this place. Ill post pics when I get them


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

I consider it to be abusive but mud and dirty buckets probably won't do it for the the SPCA or animal control.. Usually access to water, well fed and no old festering wounds is good enough.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Is the mud really up to the horses knees? I know first hand how very, very, hard it is to control mud. Last summer was a horrible wet time and in attempts to try and save one pasture I kept them in the 2nd one until the other pasture was dry enough to grow grass. And man! it was muddy. And I would have kept them inside, but I would rather have happy healthy horses that get to go outside than two horses that are stabled 24/7. 

To go as far as saying that feeding your horse alot and not working it is abuse, I don't know..


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## travlingypsy (Apr 5, 2008)

Ya, the paddocks are really that deep. Really its hard to get the horses in and hard for them to even move around in there. Its either they are out there or in dark dirty stalls.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Well I do find it semi-hard to believe that the mud is /that/ deep. Though, mud isn't good to be standing in all the time, it is usually only harmful to horses that have shoes. But horses need to be turned out, I would find them staying in their stall all day us worse than going in a muddy pasture.


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## travlingypsy (Apr 5, 2008)

Im pritty sure all their horses have shoes. After Gypsy went to her new barn the people who are leasing her told me Gypsy has thrush. I wasnt even able to turn her out as much as the BO's horses and I also cleaned my stall everyday. I wouldnt be suprised if most of the horses have thrush or worse. 

I'll be able to post pics later on in the week.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

dirty stalls and nasty buckets yes... paddocks... I don't know. I clean the poop out of my paddocks daily in the summer but when winter comes I can't get the barrels in and then it gets so wet. My horses are living in a swamp land. I hope people don't think I neglect them. Their stalls and clean, buckets are scrubbed and food is fresh... paddocks are nasty.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

are the stalls open? we have open stalls and its impossible to keep them completely dry. we clean stalls twice a day but they still have wet inside stalls and the outsides are solid mud.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

If you work there what are you doing to fix it? Making it hard on the BO is going to result in some horses going to slaughter or to homes that may be worse. Mud won't hurt a horse and cleaning a stall every three days may not be ideal but it won't hurt it too bad either. I think your overexagerating things.


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## travlingypsy (Apr 5, 2008)

Roperchick-Half the barn has normal stalls then the other half has the stalls where the horses can go out to runs. The stalls dont get wet from rain or anything. So if their wet and nasty its cause of pee. 

Kevinshorses- The barn owner is never there. I go in clean what im suppose to and then leave. I cant order new hogs fuel or fix fallen down boards cause she wont let us do that other wise I would. Were not aloud to do barn maintance its just our job to clean stalls. 

And they have already put horses down for no "real" reason. For example a pony was put down cause they let it founder again, they put it back on grass after they knew he would founder. They didnt want to care for him and didnt list the horse for free. At that time i couldnt take him other wise i would of loved to that pony was awesome. And he was also coming back from his founder so i know with time he would of been better.
Just this past week they put another horse down that they recently took in. They never turned her out, unless an hour of arena time counts. She was older but still a good ride. No major problem like founder with her but now shes gone to. Im also afraid that their gonna put this other mare down. Id rather find a home then put horses down that are not in need to be shot. 

If your going to ask why I dont list the horses. I did place adds for her before but she doesnt even call potential buyers back. Even if a boarder at the barn would like me to work a horse she ruines that for me in her eyes im only a stall cleaner. 

Here is a page about how mud can cause problems for the hooves, either by weakening the inner wall,mud fever,thrush..ect. 
Horse Mud Fever


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

If I understand correctly, you are a stall cleaner complaining about the condition of the stalls where you work? that sounds like a problem the barn owner would solve by getting better help. Putting down a horse that you can't afford to take care of or that has chronic problems is often far more humane than giving it away to a stranger. If you don't like working at the barn then quit but don't try to ruin someone elses livelyhood because it doesn't mesh well with your Pollyanna view of the world.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Um, both my horse have had thrush, does that mean I abuse my horses? Thrush is one of the most common health problem. I'm going to have to agree with Kevin on this one.


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## travlingypsy (Apr 5, 2008)

So, since I come in a few days a week to clean 4 stalls maybe 5 its my fault that the stalls are strip jobs? Or the next day I come in hers still havent been cleaned. Thats my fault?? And I am looking for a new job I was just asking the question if barn neglect is horse neglect also.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

I guess my opinion is no, the way you're describing things doesn't seem like horse abuse or neglect. I'm also sure that the owners of the horses had a legitimate reason for putting the horses down, you just don't know the story behind it..


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

I think pictures would help. How can people give an honest opinion with out them. I have seen horses taken away because they haven't had a dry area and dirty conditions.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

My horses drink out of stock troughs that are NEVER cleaned, it just isn't logistically possible. They have an inch thick layer of algae on the bottom, but if you elave it alone the algae sinks to the bottomand the water is crystal clear. If you try to clean them, it disturbs it and the water turns murky brown.

They are fine and have never gotten sick from it.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

It does not sound like the optimal set up for it for sure does not sound actionable either. Far from it. 

And I am confused about a point. What about replacing a board is such that you are not _allowed_ to do it? You compared it to ordering product that would cost the BO money. Grabbing a hammer and pounding a board back into place does not cost the BO money and I would guess they probably would not be upset if you did it.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

If it affects the health of the horse then it is horse neglect. If it was just visually unattractive and the horses were still in good health then no.


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## GoldRush (Dec 14, 2009)

This is a sticky situation! I don't think that AC will do anything, since (it was mentioned earlier) the horses are fed, there is water, and there is no immediate vet intervention needed.
It is bordering on neglect, but abuse? No. You can do whatever's possible to get the word out about the situation, call attention to it, pass the word along. but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for AC to come make it better. Legally, there isn't any thing they CAN do.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

travlingypsy said:


> If your barn was totaly nasty and the paddocks (turnouts as well as run outs for stalls) had mud where the horse sank to their knees and were living in stalls that some times hadnt been cleaned in 3 days. Not to mention the buckets are never scrubbed out. Is that just neglecting your barn or the horses also?


I think so. That said, the place where I board, they don't scrub the buckets out. I scrub my horse's every time I'm out there (I try to get out every day) because he is a dunker. I think the buckets should be scrubbed every day. Not sure why our BO doesn't.

The stalls should be cleaned every day. Who wants to live in, sleep on poop.

As far as feeding your horse and not working it - that's not abuse. There are a lot of horses in that situation. The good thing is, the horses *are* getting fed. I've been having knee problems over the last few months and I haven't ridden my horse at all. He gets turned out but no specific activity.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> If I understand correctly, you are a stall cleaner complaining about the condition of the stalls where you work? that sounds like a problem the barn owner would solve by getting better help. Putting down a horse that you can't afford to take care of or that has chronic problems is often far more humane than giving it away to a stranger. If you don't like working at the barn then quit but don't try to ruin someone elses livelyhood because it doesn't mesh well with your Pollyanna view of the world.



I was thinking the same thing. As the stall cleaner why are the stalls going three days without being cleaned?


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

churumbeque said:


> I think pictures would help. How can people give an honest opinion with out them. I have seen horses taken away because they haven't had a dry area and dirty conditions.


I wouldn't be posting pictures of her barn without permission. I think that's a bad idea especially when the OP is talking about abuse/neglect.


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## travlingypsy (Apr 5, 2008)

So what should I do? Im only out there 2 days a week now. I use to clean there 5 days a week. Shes cut my days so I cant just go in there and clean when its her days. 

And with fixing the barn like repairs. My mom worked there before me then i came in and started to work. My mom has a CDL licence and can operate those big trucks. The BO knows this but wont allow her to use the tractor to dump the spreader but yet she will let younger boys who have no training with heavy equipment run the tractor  She just wont let us do other barn things. Just t/o,fed sometimes, and clean. Well now its just clean and t/o. 

Im just asking advice cause the barn has just gown down hill and most of the clients left the barn, only one remains. To me that says a lot if your clients are all leaving. But nothing is getting done to fix the barn. 

If Animal control was called they have to first come out and inspect the barn, give a warning. Come out a second time give another warning (if needed). If things are not done or are getting worse then they would consider removing horses.She doesnt see other warnings or signs that her barn is crap now...


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

They won't give a warning if the horses are being fed and watered. Where I board we take in all the seized horses by Animal Control. 

If people are leaving and she isn't doing anything to stop them, then it may be that she doesn't care if they go. Do the best you can while you're there. If it comes to a point where the horses are no longer being fed properly then you probably have a case to call it in, but I don't think you do now.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Solon said:


> I wouldn't be posting pictures of her barn without permission. I think that's a bad idea especially when the OP is talking about abuse/neglect.


You could post closeup pictures of a stall or a run and you wouldn't be able to tell where they were taken. Like of some legs in mud if it really is knee deep.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Good luck, sorry for the lack of support. I know you're just looking out for the horses.


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## Constantjoi (Mar 1, 2019)

So I know of a barn that keeps 24 horses in 4 paddocks that sit on approximately 1-2 acres max. The horses are feed and watered and some have shelters. All the horses stand sleep and eat while in their own waste. The paddock have not been scraped in over 2years. Who can I report this to in order to get help for the horses. They all have thrush mud rot etc. this barn is near Toronto Ontario canada.


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## pennywise (Feb 1, 2016)

It's technically illegal if the owner wanted it to be for you to take photographs of anything on their property because it counts as "private" property versus public, unless they gave you permission. The loophole is that you _can_ photograph anything so long as you are not standing on their property. If you can catch a photo of their pastures/horses from outside their property line, you're in the clear.

I'd say you should give a faux warning to the property owners. Say, "I was approached by animal control" and phrase it in a way that suggests perhaps a previous boarder called in it. Give them a chance to do something, even though they should be perfectly aware of the conditions. I'm not sure what kind of interactions you have with them or how agreeable they are as people, but I wouldn't think it would be much use approaching them just with yourself and telling them how crappy everything is. But as it is, I don't think animal control would take the horses. Animals are seized when they are severely underweight/overweight. I think the rule is that you need at least 1 bale of hay on property, and if they do (even if the horses are underweight) they still might not be able to take them. These kinds of things are never straight forward.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Yes, I consider it neglect, but animal control may not. As a poster said above, all they need to provide is food, water and shelter. It doesn't have to be clean. 

I mention it because someone I know called the SPCA on a barn where she was working. They came, inspected, and left without as much as reprimanding the owner. Similar conditions to yours (I boarded my horse there and pulled him out after just a month and a half because of it), but still not enough for them to call it neglect. 

So you will be exposing yourself to a lot of animosity in the horse community for reporting this, and it may not lead to any kind of change. I don't disagree with you that such conditions are unhealthy, but they probably don't meet the threshold for abuse/neglect.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Constantjoi said:


> So I know of a barn that keeps 24 horses in 4 paddocks that sit on approximately 1-2 acres max. The horses are feed and watered and some have shelters. All the horses stand sleep and eat while in their own waste. The paddock have not been scraped in over 2years. Who can I report this to in order to get help for the horses. They all have thrush mud rot etc. this barn is near Toronto Ontario canada.



Here is a link to the Ontario SPCA: Home

Or maybe try this phone number: *
Ontario Farm Animal Care Helpline Services*
Contact the Ontario Farm Animal Care Helpline to assist farmers who are unwilling or unable to maintain acceptable conditions for their farm animals (or if you are a farmer experiencing difficulties) and concerns will be relayed to the appropriate group. Phone: 519-837-1326.

But again, it's entirely possible they won't be able to do anything unless the horses have open, untreated wounds, are emaciated, etc.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

So I live in uk and our mud is atrocious. Just the other week I went and saw my horse in her field and I nearly lost my boots to it and had to cling onto my my horse to get out hahaha. I grabbed her mane and ordered her to escort me back to the gate. Depending on the size of the horse it can be ankle or knee deep as well. It's almost impossible to poo pick when a field is like that but when it's better they do get out there and do it and rotate to another field. It's totally normal for them to be like "get me out of here". My horse wasn't even rugged (unclipped and a hotty) and as a grey she just looked awful. I've been using thrushbuster thanks to the guys on this forum and keeping an eye on her legs and feet. Any issuse and I'd have her brought back straight away. She gets several days in a nice dry stall. Last yard she was brought in before sunset which also worked fine.



What I'm trying to say is that at times field conditions aren't great at times BUT... if the rest of the barn shows signs of neglect then I would agree with you definitely. A bit of algae on a bucket? No biggy. A shared bucket not scrubbed for weeks? Yeah, problem. Feed buckets not scrubbed daily but exclusively for one horse? Ok, I can live with that for the odd few days. Shared feed buckets and rarely washed or disinfected? Nope, not ok. Horses have thrush or mites or mud fever and left to deal with it "just because"- yes a problem. I hate seeing horses with itchy feet that aren't being helped. It drives me insane watching them. Overfed and underfed? Yup it's a problem but gotta check first as there sometimes horses that the owners are desperately trying to get weight on/off and it's not as straight forward as exercise/feed up. Are they wormed/shod/vet checked/teeth filed etc regularly? The "basics"?


The bar is REALLY low for animal agencies as they are so inundated with cases but that is not to say you shouldn't try. I would document things but keep it private and for the love of god do not post anything anywhere on social media. Maybe approach a professional for one of these orgs and show them what you've documented unofficially and ask them to investigate. Ask to remain anonymous. Even ask what is their criteria for it to warrant investigation in the first place? Unless they are starving, severely lame or wounded or kept unsafe you're gonna be making a lot of enemies for little result. Personally I'd carefully conisder the above. If it's as bad as you say though and believe I would have no regrets shining a light on any abuse or neglect. Sometimes you gotta be courageous to get results even in spite of the consequences for ourselves.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

That sounds like neglect. Chores need to be prioritized. Clean water and clean stalls come first. There is nothing you can do about muddy paddocks - other than have someone come with a tractor during the dry season and push the mud aside and lay down new footing. 

My prior property often flooded. The horses were moved to stalls. If i had to wade through water to get out there- so be it. 

I cannot keep up with the manure- certain manure spots will be very muddy in the dry lot. But these mud spots are all in the back of the paddocks - the horses eat and live in the front of the paddocks. The manure does not seem to be harmful because they aren't standing in it. During the mud season, i don't muck paddocks just because the manure is soaked from daily rains. In the winter those paddocks are stripped out. The pasture is high, dry, and mud free year round. The dry lot protects my pasture.

The type of mud you describe is hazardous. How can you even muck stalls with that much mud?

As for water troughs, mine get dumped and refilled every couple days. I used to scrub them all the time, but now it is more like a once a month scrubbing, rather than every week. Water buckets in stalls are kept clean though. 

I have realized my horses prefer certain water troughs. The one they drink out of the most is the one that gets dumped the most and has the freshest water. The additional trough is a backup - even when i put fresh water there, they still prefer the other one.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I am going to second what other posters have said. If the horses have food and water that is all Animal Control will look at. Shelter is a bonus. They will not care if a horse has turn out time or if it is in mud. 

I keep my horses at home. We had an incredibly wet fall that has led to one of our snowiest winters on record. I don't need a crystal ball to tell you that my horses will be past their ankles in mud come April. They will be locked out of the pastures and confined to a sacrifice area that will be a cess pool. I don't have standard stalls I can lock them in - but they all have their own 15 X 15 run in shed where they are fed and their water troughs are. Will they have thrush? Most likely- will they be mud caked? Yep - are my horses abused? No - I don't think so.

Be very careful about who you talk to about this and what you post. The internet is never anonymous. She may have things going on in her life that you do not know about.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Well, I'd like to nitpick and make a distinction between "abuse" and "neglect". "Abuse" is something you do to the horse you shouldn't, "neglect" is something you fail to do but should.

The instances you describe are, indeed, neglect. Ordinarily (historically speaking), the horse would have freedom of movement to take care of its needs. If you restrict that movement through fencing, walls, etc., you are responsible for creating an environment in which it still has a chance to thrive, or at the very least doesn't suffer adverse health effects. A horse would walk for miles (exercise) to find fresh food and streams with clean water. It would seek higher or drier ground if it can't run fast because of the mud. It would investigate its environment and memorize everything, so it can detect threats faster (mental stimulation). All those drives and urges, acquired over a long evolutionary time span, don't just go away because humans stick them in a small corral and throw away the keys.

We are asking the horse to make trade-offs: food security, medical and dental benefits, regular grooming and hoof care, safety from predators aren't exactly things to scoff at, so I'm not making an argument that the "wild horse" lives under unqualified better conditions than the domestic one, but when nobody cares about giving even clean water, I think those other benefits won't be available to the horse.

The biggest reason for the neglect you describe: too many horses per acre (mud) and per man-hour available for care. Which is why I am at a new barn now. At that barn, before our departure, there were 21 horses on 9 acres. There were water troughs, but no equipment other than elbow grease to get the water to the pastures. BO is constantly offsite, taking classes, doing internships, or just bugging out for vacation because she's starting to drop the proverbial balls. Horse care is left to the volunteer efforts of asst. trainer, leasers, and full-fare boarders. 

New barn, after we all moved in: 13 horses on 10 acres, automated watering system, functioning equipment (tractor etc.), BO's only offsite obligation driving a school bus in the p.m. Three people (BO, daughter, friend) share responsibilities to care for half as many horses. We are still volunteering at the new barn - we help bringing in the horses that go inside for the night, that's it: two geldings for the wifey, two mares for me. There just isn't anything else for us to do there, and believe me, we developed an eye for shortcomings.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

It sounds to me like you should stop working/boarding there, or whatever it is you do there. Move yourself and horses somewhere else. Otherwise you are helping to feed the problem.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I’m so impressed by the seamless resurrection of a 9 year old thread...awesome.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> I’m so impressed by the seamless resurrection of a 9 year old thread...awesome.


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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