# Waterford D-ring bit?



## dreamrideredc (Apr 16, 2009)

Hey!

Well I have certainly been posting a lot of bit questions recently, and I started to ask this in another thread, but figured, what the heck, why not make another one! :wink:

Okay, so after harassing my trainer about switching bits from my 2-ring elevator that I thought was too harsh for my horse, she told me she had a waterford d on hand and told me I could try it. My horse is not hot, but is sometimes heavy on my hands or tries to run through my hands. Also throwing this out there, we do jumpers 

I want you to tell me anything and everything about this bit. How harsh, if it sounds appropriate for my situation, is it comfy for the horse to hold in it's mouth, personal experiences, how it works, ANYTHING that comes to mind! I really want to be educated on this bit. I'm definitely going to research it more, and already have researched a good 45 minutes, and ride him in it to see how he goes before we decide anything. 

I just want to be sure this will be a bit that will make my horse happy in every way! 

Thanks so much!


----------



## LoveMyDrummerBoy (Nov 5, 2009)

I don't know anything about that specific type of bit but I wanted to commend you about stepping up and changing the bit because your horse was/ could have been uncomfortable. I think that that was very good of you to keep your horse's happiness in mind.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

It is not a bit I would use.

The design - The many links - Means that it offers zero tongue relief and is able to wrap completely around the lower jaw of the horse, restricting the tongue and contacting the bars as much as possible.

Any contact will bend the bit around the lower jaw. Most horses don't do very well with this much tongue contact and bar contact - Most like a bit of tongue relief. 

Another issue is that because of the uneven mouthpiece, any side to side action of the bit is going to draw those bumps across the bars of the mouth - not very comfortable. This can be an action as simple as making a tight turn on a jumps course.

*

These bits work for some horses - If he goes well in it, I would consider using it for a short while to teach him not to lean/lug, then switching into a smooth mouth snaffle, maybe a french link or myler type mouthpiece - And only using the waterford if he needs a reminder. Personally, it's not a bit I would use unless I had to, and if then, only for a short amount of time.


----------



## dreamrideredc (Apr 16, 2009)

Thank you Love My Drummer Boy!

Wild Spot, thanks for your input! I'll definitely consider that! I'm sort of surprised by the cons you stated though, I read that most horses like it because of the loose bit and they had a free mouth. :-| Now I'm confused LOL! Guess I'll just have to look some more things up on it :wink: That being said, I did read that if used in harsh hands it could be a painful bit. I was concerned that if I made a mistake with my hands, lets say accidenally caught him in the mouth over the jump, I would inflict pain. Hmm...

Thanks for your input though, you've made me want to research more!


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Okay, this is in response to both threads.

When he was leaning on your hands, did you feel out of control, or was it something you could manage ok?

If you could manage it, then I would reccomend going back to a smooth mouth snaffle and just working on lightening him up and suppling him up and he should become lighter in front as a consequence. Get him pushing forward from his back end and lighter in front - The leaning is usually a symptom of being very heavy on the forehand. I had a horse who would lean like nothing else - It seems back to front, but what worked with him was holding a light contact and driving him with seat and leg into my hand - He shortened up, and put his weight back onto his hind which in turn lightened his front end. It was bl**dy scary to begin with, pushing this huge, strong horse even more forward into jumps, but it actually slowed him down and relaxed him.

If you were getting worried and feeling out of control, then a different bit may be in order until you can feel safe and in control again, however I would reccomend you always have the goal of getting back into a smooth mouth snaffle.

Are you able to handle two reins? If so, then a short shanked pelham or even the elevator you were using could be a good interim measure. Elevator bits are actually designed to be ridden with two reins - One on the snaffle ring, and one on the lower ring - So that the gag and leverage action was not constanly engaged. With either bit, you should ride on the snaffle rein perdominantly, and only engage the lower rein when he starts to lug or lean. This way, you could ride him trhough the turns where he feels uncomfortable on the snaffle rein, and save the lower rein for times you really need it. Eventually you won't need it at all and then you can drop back to a snaffle and keep the pelham/elevator for tune ups.


----------



## dreamrideredc (Apr 16, 2009)

Thank you! Honestly, the only thing that bothered me was the irritation I got when he pulled so much and wouldn't respond that I got unseated. The running through my hands has stopped BUT that might be due to the switch. I guess the only way to know is to try. If I do go back to a snaffle which one would you recommend? I was thinking something along the lines of a french link, but that being said I do still need a bit that will do what I need it to. 

Between you and me, I would love to ride him in a snaffle, but for some reason my trainer thinks other wise and I'm trying not to tick her off too much :? I know that sound ridiculous, but when I asked her about a french link (loose ring) she said it would be no different then the elevator except there would be no leverage, and pretty much shot down the idea. I'm not sure what the big deal is about using a strong bit on my not hot horse. Ugh, I don't know what to do! In the mean time should I just try the waterford to see for future reference?


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

How frustrating! It seems so strange to me, being so dictated by your trainer - very different here in Australia!

I feel like a bit of a Myler rep today, but in going to reccomend them again. They have quite thin, smooth mouthpieces that have inlaid copper. They join is a barrel that prevents any nutcracker action and it also limits it collapsing onto the bars. You can get them with straight mouthpieces or a number of different sized ports. If your trainer is adamant about leverage, you can get snaffles with 'hooks' that provide a minimal amount of leverage. 

If they are a bit out of your budget (pardon the pun!), you can also get a snaffle with similar hooks that is similar to an elevator but with only one ring. 

Perhaps give the elevator a go with two reins and see how he responds - a compromise of sorts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Honestly, if she were my trainer, I would not even let her tell me to buy that kind of bit for my horse. I understand she's my trainer, but....its my horse, and therefore his mouth is my mouth. I wouldn't want that in my horses mouth, even if I had super light hands. I would much prefer a pelham, as wild spot stated, but something like a french link would be even better.

I think if you don't feel right about it, its your job to speak up. If she doesn't want to compromise with you, I would quietly find another trainer to work with. Teaching you how to use harsh bits on any horse whos a little top heavy and a little disprespectful isn't teaching you a whole lot about how to be a proper equestrian, IMO. You would be much better off taking the mildest bit possible and teaching your horse to respond to that....it may take longer, but your horse will be much better for it, and you will be better for it.


----------



## dreamrideredc (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks guys!

Could you tell me about the french link? Is it good for jumpers? Would I still have an adequate amount of control and could get his attention? Again, anything you can think of! I'll try to scavenge in the barn for one but don't know if I'll have much luck. If I do find one I'll hack and then try to lesson in one...Oh, what ring would you recommend? In our old snaffle it was a d-ring, but I heard in a loose ring they can't lean...? 

Like I said, I really just want a bit that he will be happy in, but can still do what I need it to do.

And back to fixing the leaning, she suggested riding him in a "german" for a day or two on the flat to see if we can soften him up. I thought she said it was some kind of system deal, anyway, it's under my texts somewhere :wink: 

And wild spot - you're saying drive him forward when he starts to lean? Oh, and btw, your advice has helped me tremendously!


----------



## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Ok-a couple of things. I am not a trainer, just another person who got tired of fighting with my draft cross who "freight-trained" (gradual building of speed and heaviness) when he was cantering, especially when it involved jumps (he just loves it!) My trainer SUGGESTED (as most trainers do-they are not dictators, but it is their JOB to suggest, frankly) the waterford. I have used it ever since (YEARS-my horse is now 21!). I use a waterford elevator on the trails/cross country, and the d ring in the ring. I like it, and I certainly do not feel like a "bad" horse owner for using it. Certainly it has not had any adverse affects on my horse-he practically puts his own bridle on! The structure of it prevents him grabbing it and running thru it, and frankly, a regular snaffle can be horrible with the nutcracker effsct you get when that is hauled on, yes French link is a bit better. Just a fact. Any bit is only as harsh as the hands using it, after all, and when he is not paying attention, I only have to gently use alternating hands and he pays attention to me. Use what works for you and your horse. Don't let others judge you for it. :lol:


----------



## AfterParty (Jun 4, 2010)

The Waterford bit isn't as harsh as it looks and is worth considering. 
I first heard of it when I read an article by Ian Stark, a former world class Eventer. My mare loves the bit and it helped her soften to the bit and really helped our schooling. 

Correct schooling is also necessary to help teach you to balance your horse and for them to learn to carry you and themselves correctly. Most horses who lean on the bit are in reality just on the forehand. This means they run into the ground not over it and it takes years sometimes, depending on conformation and ability, and level of training for both horse and rider before a horse can work for long periods in "self carriage". Using a different bit can help you achieve your aim, the Waterford is a mouthpiece often misunderstood or over-looked.
Here is a link for you to look at:
http://www.equineman.com/bitting_advice_…


Remember a bit is only as harsh as the hands holding the reins

Good luck


----------



## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

The Waterford, nor the Elevator Gag Bit are bits that SHOULD NOT be chose for bits to use for training. Both are strong bits, and both are bits with a bite! I would say the Waterford is a strong bit, and does not belong in a horses mouth during training.

Both bits are meant to be used as a quick fix for the moment you need them. When you are done with that, remove it. Just like all gadgets. I use the 2 Ring Elevator Gag Bit when I Fox Hunt because no matter how much seat and leg and my body I use to keep him at bay, it goes out the door because of the high energized situation being surrounded by many horse/rider teams and hounds and horns. So the Elevator Gag works for that particular situation. When the ride is over, we go back to our regular french link snaffle.

As David O'Connor says - train at home in a snaffle, and use what you need to get the job done at a comp.

I think you seriously need to consider finding a Dressage Coach to work with you and your horse to fill the holes that are lacking in your training now. You need to go back to the Training Scale - then, when you are in the Jumping Ring, you'll beable to have a horse that is light on the front, repsonds to your aids quickly, and remains soft, flowing and in your seat.

Bits DO NOT fix training problems. Bits do not train your horse to be light in your hands - only proper riding, training does. 

Fill in the holes - find a Dressage Coach. Aferall, jumping is dressage with speed bumps.


----------



## AfterParty (Jun 4, 2010)

I suppose I should have considered that she is training right now . The waterford bit isnt harsh if used right and not used in training , sorry i failed to see that part . duh on my part .


----------



## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Whenever you ride at home and during lessons = training. Regardless if it is a green 5 year old OTTB to a 21 year old "Been there done that mount"

Training is training regardless.

I do not believe in turning to bits for a quick fix, when they don't correct anything. Look to your trianing and find the holes that are apparent. Fix those, then you correct the issue long term. 

Bits, are short term. You take them away, the horse goes back to how it was before you put it in their mouth.

My opinion - find another jumper trainer - especially if they say that French Link's work just like Elevator Gag Bits - OMFG! I can't believe she said that. 

Here is a great site for you to read:

::: Sustainable Dressage - Tack & Auxillary Equipment - The Bridle & the Bit :::


----------



## AfterParty (Jun 4, 2010)

Sure training is training but when a horse is ridden all off body the bit is barely used . I can ride my mare that exact same with her bit as when I take her bridle,bit, saddle and all off . So I do believe that the bit is only as harsh as the rider holding the reins . French Link's work just like Elevator Gag Bits....uhmm no far from !


----------



## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

dreamrideredc said:


> Thanks guys!
> 
> Could you tell me about the french link? Is it good for jumpers? Would I still have an adequate amount of control and could get his attention? Again, anything you can think of! I'll try to scavenge in the barn for one but don't know if I'll have much luck. If I do find one I'll hack and then try to lesson in one...Oh, what ring would you recommend? In our old snaffle it was a d-ring, but I heard in a loose ring they can't lean...?


A french link is basically a snaffle, except it has a "bean" in the middle that makes it double jointed, and doesn't apply as much pressure to the palate, and provides a little tongue relief without as much of a nutcracker action. The o-rings are only useful if you have a horse who grabs the bit between his teeth and takes off with it--if your horse is just leaning into it, it will not help you.

I rode my OTTB who was more or less fresh off the track and liked to lean sometimes in a french link for awhile--but having a bit in his mouth actually distracted him, so I chose to go bitless. I did not have any problems controlling him in it however.


I'm going to answer for w_s....I don't think she neccesarily means make him go forward as in faster, but get his butt working under him to get him to balance out. Its the difference between pulling a cart from the front up a hill and pushing it from the back. You want him to be pushing himself forward starting in his back end, not pulling himself forward with his front legs.


Here is a picture of the french link. I DO have one for sale if you'd like to try it, its 4 3/4" .


----------



## AfterParty (Jun 4, 2010)

french links are nice bits


----------



## dreamrideredc (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks everyone! 

Well I chatted with my trainer and she said I could give the french link a go if I really wanted...well guess what? I really want to! She has one at the barn I can ride him in and see how he is. She said hacking him in it will be fine, but thinks that he will be too strong when he jumps. But either way, I'm hopefully hacking in it today and if all goes well will be lessoning in it Saturday.

Does it make sense to use an elevator jumping if needed, or do you think if he does fine in the french link jump him in that?

When my trainer said that the elevator wasn't harsh and it was like the french link, I think what she meant was the mouth piece was similar, like it I were to put it on with absolutely no contact it would be similar, aside from the "bubbles." I believe that the bit itself isn't harsh, but it's function is. For example if I had no contact on his mouth it wouldn't be severe, but once I start pulling it is. Who knows? I just know I'm anxious to try the French link...I will try to post an update soon!

-Justsambam08, I wish I could take you up on that offer but I'm afraid that's too small for my man


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

If he goes fine in the frnech link, there is no point switching back to the elevator - It will only make him unhappy. However if it is what you need for that extra control in the ring, then go back t it, but PLEASE use two reins. I really think it will solve the head shaking on turns if you just use the snaffle rein then and only use the gag ring if it is needed.



> And wild spot - you're saying drive him forward when he starts to lean? Oh, and btw, your advice has helped me tremendously!


Yup, as Justsambam said, not forward as in faster, but forward into a holding rein so he shortens up and brings his weight back onto his hind end. You can feel it, because the canter becomes really BOUNCY!


----------



## dreamrideredc (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks!

About the two rein deal...if it comes down to it, I'm really trying to avoid the elevator altogether. My fear about the two reins is I would get confused! The fact of the matter is that there's an underlying problem that needs to be fixed. I know this because as soon as I take him out of a stronger bit he reverts back. I think it would be simpler in the long run to fix the problem to begin with. I never used to use a strong bit, but I was told that in jumpers I need it to make the sharp turns. Do other jumpers use the french link? I would feel a lot better if they did!

Oh, and my trainer said that by using 2 reins I'm only making the bit stronger...maybe she means if I pull on both of them at the same time? 
Kinda confused about that!

But anyway, I'm hopefully going out later and will see how he goes! Fingers crossed!


----------



## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

I do believe that a lot of jumpers use french links. I think even our one TB uses a snaffle with a copper roller in the middle. Our jumper mare uses a pelham, but the reins are on the snaffle hole, so its not really a big issue. I think our BIG jumper (I think hes 16.3 and just a powerhouse) might use a regular snaffle, I've never been around when he's being tacked up though.

I think your trainer did mean that if you use the two reins at the same time, it would be a harsh bit.


----------



## kmacdougall (Feb 12, 2010)

dreamrideredc said:


> I never used to use a strong bit, but I was told that in jumpers I need it to make the sharp turns. Do other jumpers use the french link? I would feel a lot better if they did!


I have won many a jumper class in a D-ring racing snaffle - if I sit down deep in my saddle and use my legs properly, my horse could turn on a dime without any facial contact. And I mean literally, around a TIGHT turn, with no contact. I don't agree with using a harsh bit on most horses short of Grand Prix - but if you're riding GP, the hands holding the bit are more than capable.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I use a french link or a myler (same concept) on ALL of my horses, even the one I mentioned who pulled like a steam train, no matter what I am doing - Jumping, Eventing, Chasing cattle, Showing, Mounted Games, Polocrosse. In fact i've never ridden any of my horses in anything but a plain snaffle, except for Bundy who I ride occasionally in a western curb bit - but I neck rein with it so it isn't comparable to say an elevator. I personally hate elevators and would go to something like a pelham if I had to - but I have never felt the need.

Needing a stronger bit for turns is nonsense - unless the horse isn't conditioned and trained for it and you are just hauling them around by the mouth. I do gameing and cattle work so all my horses can turn on a dime, from a gallop. I used to clean up in fastest time jump offs on the above mentioned steam train because he could trun on a dime, jump from anywhere, and had a huge stride - All in the same snaffle.

I'm not sure why your trainer would think the two reins harsher - the idea is that one rein goes on the snaffle ring, rendering the action exactly the same as a snaffle - And the other on the gag ring with the gag effect. The snaffle rein has the same effect as a plain snaffle, and the gag rein only activates when necessary - As opposed to the gag being in effect every second you have contact.

I don't blame you for being wary of two reins - I only tried it once as a bit of a laugh and I couldn't for the life of me keep them straight!

Good on you for wanting to work through the base issue instead of covering it up with more bit.

My way of thinking is this - If you can learn how to use leverage and certain techniques, then a snaffle can have as much stopping power as just about any bit out there - but it can also be about the gentlest bit out there when the horse is behaving. I haven't yet ridden a horse I couldn't stop in a snaffle - And I have ridden upwards of 100 games ponies as well as all my personal horses - Some very very unruly. If I, a 20yo girl, can stop a 16h horse who pulls like nothing else in a myler comfort snaffle, then why do so many people need these contraptions to do the same job?


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

This is the horse I keep referring to as the steam train - 16h of roughly broken and gelded late ASH - talented out the wazoo but very, very strong and bold:










He is now taking a young girl through the grades eventing, still in a snaffle.


----------



## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> I was told that in jumpers I need it to make the sharp turns.


That's a load of cow poopie. What makes a Jumper more agile and sharp while in the show ring, is Dressage.

Did you know that GP Jumpers spend up to 5 days a week training dressage with their mounts? Because - jumping is dressage with speed bumps. Majority of GP level mounts do minimally level 3 movements.

Now that doesn't mean you have to be doing level 3 movements, but that does signify the great importance of dressage and how valuable it is to have in your daily training, so that when you are in the competative ring, you are that much sharper.

I can go to a Hunter/Jumper show and watch Jumper Rounds - and I can pinpoint which horse/rider team have dressage in their daily training, in compareson to those who do not.



> Oh, and my trainer said that by using 2 reins I'm only making the bit stronger...maybe she means if I pull on both of them at the same time?


Using 2 reins does not make it stronger. The bit works on poll pressure, it is a leverage bit, hence the stronger the bit gets with which "bubble" or "ring" you put the reins on.

Using 2 reins, allows the rider to use the "leverage" when needed, and not use the "Leverage" when not needed. So by having reins attached to the basic snaffle ring, your bit is now just a basic snaffle. When you have reins attached to the bottom rings *either or* the bit is now a leverage bit - so by having the rider educated on how and when to use each set of reins at that appropriate time, the bit gets activated when needed and left alone when needed.

You don't use both reins at the same time, you have to be trained on how to hold the reins accordingly in your hands, and when to use which rein, at the point in time you need it.

As Wild_Spot said - learning to use 2 reins is difficult and quite a challange. That is why many don't even use 2 reins, they just use one set and that set is always attached to one of the bubbles to make it a leverage bit.


----------



## dreamrideredc (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks guys! Great pic btw Wild_spot!

Please read my latest thread, it has yet ANOTHER question about a Myler bit, and it has an update!


----------

