# Billy Cook western saddle authenticity?



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I read that Billy Cook still made the saddles with his name on them in Sulphur, Oklahoma in 2012.
I don't know if he still makes saddles today.
There is a difference in "plates" between the Texas and Oklahoma saddles.
The plates look different in shape, how and what the wording is placed on them.







versus








As for knock-offs...._all good brands have knock-offs_, unsuspecting individuals may think they bought the real thing to find out it is a fake.
Try the website of the saddle maker for ways to identify real or fake/knock-off equipment.
There is always a phone number or email address listed where you can contact the company with any questions you have.
The other thing I've heard, don't know if truth, is that all saddles coming out of Sulphur, Oklahoma have full-quarter horse bars in them.

I found this online, from about 8 years ago dated...._*I do not know if truth or not...*_
_There is a lot of confusion on this topic. Here is it in a nutshell. Billy Cook originally made good handmade saddles in TX up until the early 1980's. He ran into financial and legal problems and sold out to Longhorn. After wards, he relocated to OK where his current shop is. The LH BC saddles will not have his signature logo on them. Nor will they say "Billy Cook Maker". If you have an original BC, then that's a nice saddle. Check under the left jockey for a serial #. It will be up high under the bars of the tree. Only the real BC will have them. The Long Horn BC don't have a #. Hope that helps.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AwrXnCf_TJxZQFEAFSNPmolQ;_ylu=X3oDMTEybXNoODNyBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjI1NTlfMQRzZWMDc3I-?qid=20100122180550AAlzwcs {you can copy & paste the address if you want to read more}

_Hope that helps you some.
:runninghorse2:...


----------



## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

That is true, Horselovingguy.

Billy Cook Greenville was 'busted' by ICE, and shut down - that was his legal trouble which resulted in financial trouble: He was employing illegal aliens to work in his factory. Simco ultimately bought the rights to the Greenville name, btw.

Billy Cook relocated his operation to Sulphur.

One is as good as another, Greenville or Sulphur, but there's also a huge debate on that here in SE Oklahoma, and its a bit like the Ford vs. Chevy argument.

I also see no listing for any type of bar/tree options when I look up Billy Cook Sulphur dealers, only seat size, so the only Full QH bars thing may be true.

If you don't mind me asking, how much are you paying for it? They tend to run about $650.00 in our area.


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> If you don't mind me asking, how much are you paying for it? They tend to run about $650.00 in our area.


OK...now I'm "stealing" this for a couple questions...

New saddle or used saddle?
For $650?

Whew....
New, what a steal.
Used, better be really, really nice!!
:runninghorse2:....


----------



## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

horselovinguy said:


> OK...now I'm "stealing" this for a couple questions...
> 
> New saddle or used saddle?
> For $650?
> ...


Used, no pad, with rigging.

Most look absolutely brand new with very little signs of wear or use.

My daughter bought her 15" Greenville from someone in Bonham Texas this time last year for $550.00, after some haggling. I went with her to just to make sure she didn't get into a dangerous situation, because... Craigslist. Turns out it belonged to a young lady who decided Roping Wasn't for Her.

Also, she and her mom threw in a redline fire rope (heeling).

This it on Trigger a few days ago.


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Here are some pics of plates on my Billy Cook Custom reining saddle made in Sulphur OK. I bought it used at Congress either in 2002 or 2003. I can place the time as it was from a friend of the trainer I used then who had a new saddle booth. 


































Then today with what HLG said, and while looking online found out about the serial number (high up under the fender) indicating the year it was made by the first 2 digits. So I uncovered it and took a pic of the serial number starting with 01, meaning 2001. So it must have only been 1 or 2 years old then. Many people showing back then at higher end shows liked to trade in saddles every year or 2 due to the darker patina saddles naturally get. The trend at the time was to have very light colored saddles.


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


----------



## sugahorse (Mar 15, 2017)

I have attached some pictures of the saddle.
I am in South Africa, and the saddle is going for the equivalent of $750. They go for over $1000 usually.

So you can see that I am a bit nervous, especially as the saddle basically looks brand new. The name/contact details of the seller make me a bit nervous too, so there is no way i am paying for it and hoping it gets posted to me - I would have to make a plan for a friend to collect it for me and post it to me, as it is a few hundred miles away.


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Do you have any more pics?

I googled Billy Cook 6005 and came up with one on ebay (from a seller I have purchased from before) with a Buy It Now price of $1,195

Billy Cook Reining Saddle 6005 Reiner 16" Lightly Used | eBay











Also a site that sells new saddles:

15" to 17" Billy Cook Classic Reiner 6005

There is a lot of detailed info there, apparently the silver tips (below the conchos are optional),
but I don't see the breast collar dees in your pics.

Also the front rigging d ring is engraved with the words Billy Cook on both that I found.










It is good you are skeptical, I would be too. Get and post more pics if you can. Ask for specs, and compare them to this list



*Tree:* Classic Reiner rawhide covered wood, QH bar and gullet
*Seat Size:* 15", 16", 17"
*Horn:* Leather covered low reiner
*Swell:* 12" hand stamped
*Cantle:* 3" hand stamped
*Rigging:* Full double rigging, 27 strand
*Skirts:* Hand stamped, artificial wool lined, 29"
*Stirrups:* 2 inch bells, sewn and hand stamped
*Finish:* Chestnut
*Weight:* 42 lbs
*Pattern:* Basket, hand stamped
 Call the Billy Cook company and find out if that is a valid serial number noted on the pamphlet.

Good you will send someone to pick it up, might not be the same saddle as pictured, or a total rip off - no saddle at all.


----------



## sugahorse (Mar 15, 2017)

Thanks - I am battling to get hold of Billy Cook to verify the serial number, as it is the one from Sulphur OK. I.e. Not from Action Company who is the distributor for the other Billy Cook saddles.

The balance of the photos I have are attached


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

If it is a knock off, it's a good one. I am not willing to stick my neck out and say it is genuine though. Something about the lack of luster of the leather, and the way it lays. Would like to see and touch it, turn it over and inspect the tree...

The price for you is unbelievably low, considering transportation to South Africa. So I guess I don't believe it.

Wonder how much tackdeals would charge for shipping the used one on ebay?


----------



## sugahorse (Mar 15, 2017)

Shipping seems to be around $100. Problem is that Customs charges another 30% on top of the purchase price. So that is what also worries me.
It should be selling for approx double the price


----------



## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

I have them on the phone right now. Sulphur is local to my area code in Oklahoma. They are checking their records...

And now I wait on hold....

I haven't represented to them this is a personal matter. LOL I am using the law office phone and identified myself as a legal assistant (that's my day job) needing their verification - which usually means there's a stolen saddle the sheriff's office is trying to verify...


----------



## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

sugahorse said:


> I am looking to buy a Billy Cook which is listed as a 6005 model.
> The serial number is 12-152866
> The stamp on the horn reads:
> 
> ...


Are you sure its a 12-152866?

She tells me the 52866 sequence is for a 2017 saddle. The model is correct, the year is wrong.

The 12 denotes the year made. She said if its a 17-152866, then its legit. IF it is in fact a 12-152866 then that serial number is faked. This may have been asked and answered - are there pictures of the actual serial number under the skirt?

The brochure it comes with appears to have 17-152866 hand written on it. IF that serial number is stamped the same, its legit, and its a 2017, not a 2012 model. Pictures of the actual serial number would go a long way to help.


----------



## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Also, you may be overpaying, even if its legit. 

SOLD 2017/08/25 15" Billy Cook Classic Wide Reiner 6005 CLEARANCE

They were originally listed for excess of $2100.00, but the final clearance sale price, before they were out of stock is less than $400.00.

Description from another site for a 16" model 6005 that may explain the lack of silver tips:

Product Description

Billy Cook knows how to put together a reining saddle that feels good and looks great. This reiner is a classic because it gives you the features you're looking for: a saddle built from a rawhide covered reiner tree, a lowboy reiner horn, and generous bell stirrups. It also features full double rigging and an included mohair cinch. The chestnut leather is hand stamped with a basketweave. 

*Saddle may not come with silver tips 
SPECIFICATIONS
Tree: Classic Reiner rawhide covered wood, QH bar and gullet
Seat Size: 16inch
Horn: Leather covered low reiner
Swell: 12inch hand stamped
Cantle: 3inch hand stamped
Rigging: Full double rigging, 27 strand
Skirts: Hand stamped, artificial wool lined, 29inch
Stirrups: 2 inch bells, sewn and hand stamped
Finish: Chestnut
Weight: 42 lbs
Pattern: Basket, hand stamped


----------



## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Also, where is this saddle physically located? I'm not looking to snipe it, by any means, I have more saddles than I know what to do with now as it is, but if its anywhere in Oklahoma (barring the panhandle, which is a 7 hour drive from me) or north Texas, I might can give it a look over if you'd like. I don't mind running the owner's name through the court records sites (if he's from Oklahoma) to see if he has a history of any criminal activity, or civil suits.


----------



## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Sorry to flood this thread but I found this interesting:

_Although through the years many have tried to imitate Billy Cook products, even to the point of counterfeiting, THERE IS ONLY ONE ARTIFICIAL WOOL "BILLY COOK CLASSIC SADDLE" MANUFACTURER. HorseSaddleShop.com is happy to sell the Artificial Wool Billy Cook saddles made in Sulphur, Oklahoma, owned by Mr. Billy Cook. There are other saddle manufacturers that sell their own Billy Cook saddles. If you buy a Billy Cook saddle be sure that it is manufactured in Sulphur, Oklahoma._

This is probably a direct reference to Billy Cook - Greenville and the whole Ford vs. Chevy rivalry/****ing match between the two manufacturers.

Also, like a doofus, I misread that site. They were marked down by that much. So now... I'm wondering what the heck is going on.

I'm thinking its a legit saddle, the sale is bogus. Ask them if someone can view it in person, and if its anywhere near me, I'll load up my husband and we can check it out for you. I suspect that saddle isn't in their possession or if it is, they have no intention of shipping it... and probably won't let your friend come pick it up. It could also be stolen. I urge caution.


----------



## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> I'm thinking its a legit saddle, the sale is bogus. Ask them if someone can view it in person, and if its anywhere near me, I'll load up my husband and we can check it out for you. I suspect that saddle isn't in their possession or if it is, they have no intention of shipping it... and probably won't let your friend come pick it up. It could also be stolen. I urge caution.


That's my thought, too. I wouldn't pay to have this saddle shipped. Too many worries you'd never get it.


----------



## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Yeah, I'm looking on Craigslist this afternoon and there's quite a few people that are posting things like DO NOT TRY TO BUY THIS SADDLE! SCAM ALERT! (it is NOT a Billy Cook, but it is a gorgeous, well made custom saddle, the price is stupidly low. Its bait)

The common thread seems to be that they will not let you see the saddle in person, always some excuse, may not be willing to talk on the phone - texts or emails only - and they will send you to what appears to be a legit ebay site complete with a paypal button.

IF these people are trying to get you to pay through an mocked up ebay site the url will be ebay.net.

Here's how I know: My husband was trying to buy a jeep out of OKC a few weeks ago, followed the link, and he kept studying the page, I asked what's up, he said: Something isn't right... I can't put my finger on it.

I looked at it, it looked like ebay. It was an exact. duplicate.

The url wasn't right. There is no ebay.net. I could type in Ebay.net on my own laptop and got nadda. Site does not exist.

Anyway, IF and I know its a huge if, they are local to me, I'll go look for you if you'd like me to. However, having now seen the CL ads that are are getting flagged? I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole unless you can lay hands on it and pay with cash (or have boots on the ground who can).


----------



## sugahorse (Mar 15, 2017)

Hi!

Thanks for the info and offer - if you'd like to have a look, it is in South Africa ;-)
I'll pay for accommodation, lol.

Will ask for the actual serial number. I have been communicating via Whatsapp and run the phone number through Google, and it comes up with a dodgy name. I'm definitely not keen to pay for it and hope it is shipped. My 6th sense is warning, and I have recently bought 4 saddles over the internet, where the alarm bells did not go off to the extent that this is...

OK, I have had a look at the card again, and while the seller did say the serial number read 12-152866, it does indeed show 17-152866.

It still seems to be half the price it ought to be everything considered.

OK - so it seems I need to try find someone who can go and fetch it and pay cash for it.


----------



## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Yeah, if you can't lay hands on it personally, or have a trusted friend or associate pick it up and pay cash, its a scam. The saddle is obviously a real item, they have the pictures, but they may not have possession of it. Those could have been ganked from a forum like this one and just recycled as bait.

Another alarm: You've not spoken to anyone in person. Generally speaking, once one has confirmed the saddle IS still for sale, at some point, the conversation switches from texting, emails, etc, to talking to a warm body. A hallmark of these scams is that you will never be allowed to talk to the person on the other end of the phone.

I mean... its a stretch... but someone may have ordered it, and didn't like it at all, and just wants it gone, but... Iiii don't think that's the case. This feels like scam bait.

Also, don't think I wouldn't take you up on the offer. LOL Hubs has a business acquaintance that moved here from SA, and I just adore him, and of course, he tells us all sorts of stories about SA. Not to mention, there's just so many beautiful places to see there.

Anyway. Be extremely cautious. Also, keep us updated and if you need anyone to be a go between and phone Billy Cook up again, I'll be glad to do so - Sulphur, Oklahoma is only about an hour from me anyway and its far easier for me to catch them during business hours given your time zone difference.

(Personally, I have blast yanking them around and wasting THEIR time. Every minute spent trying to scam me is time they're not spending on someone else who may fall for it. My son and I have laughed ourselves into tears and a few times I've had THEM prepared to send ME cash before they figured out I was onto them.)


----------



## Smokie (Sep 1, 2017)

Good morning to all, sorry but I am Italian and I do not write your language very well. My name is Daniel and I contact you from Trieste. I'm looking for information on a billy showcase 8959 model show that I was going to buy directly to the USA.
On the internet I can not find information and photos I find it difficult to understand if it is a suitable saddle for reining or not ... can you help me?

Greetings from Italy ... indeed from Trieste


----------



## Smokie (Sep 1, 2017)

sorry ... billy cook model 8959


----------



## sugahorse (Mar 15, 2017)

South Africa is not all bad; especially if you do know someone here and can get a hand finding your way around and learning the ins and outs. Being a genuine tourist here can be a bit treacherous, but there are definitely some lovely places and things to do. Just yesterday I was a "Tourist in my own country" and took a drive to see the spring flowers out in full blood - what a spectacular sight!

I may have found a connection of mine that stays in the area where this saddle is, and can hopefully look at and collect the saddle for me.


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

To Smokie,

This is a Billly Cook 8959










It is on ebay Fancy Billy Cook Maker Show Saddle New w/Tags 16" Never Used 8959 | eBay

There are several listed, this one has the model number listed, so this is the one I chose to display.

In my opinion it is mostly definitely NOT suited for Reining. It is strictly a Show saddle for Western Pleasure type of classes.

The model number 6005 that this thread is originally about is designed for Reining. 

I was going to leave your question for someone more knowledgeable than I am; however, as no one responded directly I just am jumping in anyway.


----------



## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Smokie, these are more along the lines of what you would be needing: Billy Cook Reining Saddles


----------



## mardyrenee (Oct 10, 2017)

I have a Billy Cook saddle that I purchased new in or around 1970. I cannot find a serial number. It says Billy Cook Maker, Greenville Tx. on the latigo holder and on silver plate on the saddle horn. It is a modified Martha Josey barrel saddle. 14-14 1/2 inch seat. Is it the real thing? Greatest saddle I have ever ridden. Thank you.


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

You might want to start a new thread on your saddle. Include a lot of pictures and all info you have. 

Was it new when you purchased it?

Look again for a serial number, they are in a hard to get to spot. Way up high under the fender.


----------

