# Critique my mare



## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm wanting to breed a Small (15 - 15.1hh) saddle cob or saddle/show cob (like the uk ones), since we dont A, have small RIDs here or B, anything resembling a true UK saddle/show cob, I'm thinking of trying to get close enough to what I want by breeding my own 
So what do you think of her for breeding a nice heavy hunter or saddle/show cob type? Pics are of both Mare & stallion....
Stallion is 14.2hh with 10 & 3/4" bone Gypsy Cob
My mare is 15.3hh with 8 & 3/4" bone NZ Gisbornebred.








Stallion








Showing how sold he is even as a baby!!!


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

I think you'd get a nice, solid foal. A beautiful one too!


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

Hehe - all feather will be choped off tho


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

Aww. I understand though, they look pretty when they're clean and taken care of, but they're probably super high maintenance...


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Like your mare,can't say The same for the stallion. Then i'm not a gypsy fan so ....don't see what others may.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

paintedpastures said:


> Like your mare,can't say The same for the stallion. Then i'm not a gypsy fan so ....don't see what others may.


I'm not either at all- however cant breed a big boned horse if you dont use a big boned stallion. 
I only have 2 options for stallions Gypsy Cob (the tallest in Nz is 14.3hh) or RID, we only have 2 purebreds here & BOTH those are 16.3hh+ with about 10-10&1/2" of bone so no where near as powerful in build as the cobs are.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

soenjer55 said:


> Aww. I understand though, they look pretty when they're clean and taken care of, but they're probably super high maintenance...


Very high. show/saddle cobs are hoged with legs cliped clean lol


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Mare and stallion do not compliment each other. She has faults in the same places he does.

Find a different stallion IMO.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

blue eyed pony said:


> Mare and stallion do not compliment each other. She has faults in the same places he does.
> 
> Find a different stallion IMO.


For example please...


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

The stallion is nothing special, very short coupled and rather bum high, I'd want something a bit bigger and less like a pony.

More like this Thomas of givendale - Stud Card. Stallions Online. Stallions at stud.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Surayya said:


> For example please...


What jumped out at me was the upright shoulder. Both horses have shoulders that look a little upright.

But really the problem IMO is the stallion. He doesn't have a lot going for him conformationally. Butt-high is not a good thing. His shoulder is upright, and I just don't like his hindquarter in general. The angles in it just seem wrong.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

Clava said:


> The stallion is nothing special, very short coupled and rather bum high, I'd want something a bit bigger and less like a pony.
> 
> More like this Thomas of givendale - Stud Card. Stallions Online. Stallions at stud.


Lol The point is to bred her to a Smaller stallion for a smaller mature height in the foal- I'm short & 15.1hh is as tall as Id like to go- 15hh would be better lol (I look way over horsed on her as it is)  

I Want short coupled as it = strong esp as they age 

I'm wanting the foal to look much like the stallion you posted less the hair of course  So I need a heavy stallion & that means I'm limited to 2 stallions here- the other stallion has less depth in his body.
This is what I'm after (I know I'm not likely to get so much bone tho):
http://www.smartcobs.com/hp_scanDS_119514285624.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_s42ZLFWeOe0/TLKuTixhAdI/AAAAAAAAASY/qlVpETjVNtQ/s1600/kayandcap.jpg
http://www.countryfarmstud.co.uk/images/progeny/Thomas Pink/large/Thomas RIHS1.jpg
http://www.farmersguardian.com/Pictures/inline/x/v/e/Yorks_Danielle_Heath.jpg
http://www.theirishhorse.co.uk/corne1.jpg
http://www.theirishhorse.co.uk/main.h4.jpg
http://smartcobs.webs.com/Ireland April 2009 016.jpg
http://www.magnusnicholson.co.uk/gfx/forsale/Jimmy_large.jpg
http://www.magnusnicholson.co.uk/gallery/large/BenMhor.jpg


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

blue eyed pony said:


> What jumped out at me was the upright shoulder. Both horses have shoulders that look a little upright.
> 
> But really the problem IMO is the stallion. He doesn't have a lot going for him conformationally. Butt-high is not a good thing. His shoulder is upright, and I just don't like his hindquarter in general. The angles in it just seem wrong.


The bum is a typical Gypsy cob bum - same as being bum high (at least all the ones over here are) & why I'm not really a fan of the bred. However they dont seem to leave such down hill offspring when crossed
This is the only unsaddled youngster from him I could find as his oldest offspring are only 3yrs old - this mare is 2or3yrs
http://www.westfieldstud.co.nz/Ricky Champion Partbred.JPG

As for upright shoulders, they arent the be all & end all, it's the whole sholder & forelimb tie in that determinds soundness- her's are only slightly straight, but with a very good length from point of shoulder to point of elbow on top of good length of shoulder itself which is why it has no effect on her movement at all, as long as you arent looking for mind blowing extensions lol- her movement is the most comfy I've ever ridden (nothing smoother & more comfy than cantering her bareback, everyone who rides her doesnt want to get off- been told to change her name to cloud 9 lol), she also has the SJers snap & collects like a Spanish horse, so being slightly upright isnt a problem, in fact it's made her a better ride, as any one can get on & enjoy without being bounced around lol. 
The only down side to her shoulder is she hasnt got a massive WB stride- tho she out walks 17hh WBs at free walk (or any time) on a long rein- she has a 40cm over track & scores 9s or 10s in her tests.
She's cleaned up this season winning or placing in every flat class she's entered, dressage included ;p- that photo was taken as a 4yr old she has now just gone 6 so has even more power but I dont have any side on shots


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Don't like the progeny either. JMO.

No, it's not typical gypsy. Might be where you are but NZ (and here in Oz for that matter) there aren't a lot of gypsy horses and so quality often leaves a lot to be desired because the attitude is "OMG rare horsey" and few people actually pay attention to the conformation of the animal. Even here - there are maybe 5 gypsy horses in the whole state - the standard of quality is FAR higher than the individual you are considering. Higher still in the Eastern states of Australia and you can get chilled semen from several of them, making them possible options - although I wouldn't AI a maiden mare because the conception rate is kind of low with AI.

Yes the whole leg has to be taken into account BUT an upright shoulder is still a fault that you don't want to enhance or accentuate and like begets like so that "only slightly" upright shoulder might turn into "holy upright shoulder Batman!!" in the progeny, especially if you breed a horse with the fault to another horse with the same fault. You MIGHT get lucky but I don't like the chances.

I will reiterate I do not like the stallion, and I do not like the progeny. If the stallion were mine he would be a gelding. Find yourself a different stallion and if there are no others that are even close to acceptable local to you then consider artificial insemination.

That is my opinion and what I would do. I'm not saying don't breed your mare - she doesn't have anything SO wrong that it can't be corrected by the right stallion - but I am saying, not to this stallion. He is all wrong for her.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Several of the horses in the links you posted are seriously over weight:shock:.

Short coupled is not a strong back when combined with it being bum high as well. I understand you wanting something smaller, I'm short too and last year I was in exactly the same position as you and I was looking at breeding my beautiful TB mare with the same type of stallion for a while but along with others (here is a very long thread about the discussion Husbands for Belle) 

I can't really help with what is available in your country, but I think you need to look for more bone and a better overall conformation.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

blue eyed pony said:


> Don't like the progeny either. JMO.
> 
> No, it's not typical gypsy. Might be where you are but NZ (and here in Oz for that matter) there aren't a lot of gypsy horses and so quality often leaves a lot to be desired because the attitude is "OMG rare horsey" and few people actually pay attention to the conformation of the animal. Even here - there are maybe 5 gypsy horses in the whole state - the standard of quality is FAR higher than the individual you are considering. Higher still in the Eastern states of Australia and you can get chilled semen from several of them, making them possible options - although I wouldn't AI a maiden mare because the conception rate is kind of low with AI.
> 
> Yes the whole leg has to be taken into account BUT an upright shoulder is still a fault that you don't want to enhance or accentuate and like begets like so that "only slightly" upright shoulder might turn into "holy upright shoulder Batman!!" in the progeny, especially if you breed a horse with the fault to another horse with the same fault. You MIGHT get lucky but I don't like the chances.


I understand what you are saying about the lack of quality in the imports (they tend to go for the lower end of the market as it's so darn expensive to import anything esp here with all the extra taxes we have to payon top). However ALL the Gypsy stallions I've seen on line including the top ranked Irish stallions are all bum high as at the end of the day they are built 1st to pull the wagons 2nd to ride. 
I want to bred her to a small RID or UK Show Cob (thought about Sect D welsh, but find them quite stiff in their movement), but thats just not going to happen. 
She is a maiden so I'm not going down the AI route 1st time around with her, I want natural cover 1st time & will make sure all goes well blah blah blah before commiting a small fourtune 'just' to get her inseminated, let alone hoping it takes etc.

I'll ask for updated pics as those pics are from 2006 when he was 3 or 4 I think & have another look at him - it will come down to what will most likely throw me the type (HW Cob or hunter) I'm after, Not what will give me a nice modern sports horse or WB.

As far as shoulder conformation goes each to their own - her grand dam had the same as her & went till 39yrs old despite being a top level SJ for 13yrs & hunting for 21yrs, with never a lame day nor looking her age (in fact she only died last yr & was still happy as a sand lark & in med work with the grandkids of her owners on board), her Dam looks much the same & also at 12-13yrs has never been lame nor missed a beat, despite 8yrs eventing & SJ over summer & hunting over winter  My mare comes from a long line of horses built to work hard & stand up to that work BUT she is the last decent boned horse of this line (the station sold all it's breeding stock 6yrs ago when I got her) & IMO Nz horses are getting to fine in build to stand up to decent/ hard work which is why so many are breaking down or having to have all manner of body work done to keep them going now.

Thanks for your opinion & honesty though- it's food for thought


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Welsh D's stiff in their movement??? What do you mean?, I really am not keen on them , but they have wonderful fluid movement.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

Clava said:


> Several of the horses in the links you posted are seriously over weight:shock:.
> 
> Short coupled is not a strong back when combined with it being bum high as well. I understand you wanting something smaller, I'm short too and last year I was in exactly the same position as you and I was looking at breeding my beautiful TB mare with the same type of stallion for a while but along with others (here is a very long thread about the discussion Husbands for Belle)
> 
> I can't really help with what is available in your country, but I think you need to look for more bone and a better overall conformation.


Thanks will have a squizz at the thread later its 4:30am here & I'm so tired.
That stallion is young & has the largest amount of Bone per body weight in Nz - the others are much much taller with less bone 

Short back, short broad loin & bum high is the strongest equine conformation you can get when coupled with a heavy forehand- thats why so many drafts are built that way, so they can pull MASSIVE loads easily, it's just not comfy for us to ride (nor as easy to fit a saddle to or as pretty imo) lol


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

Clava said:


> Welsh D's stiff in their movement??? What do you mean?, I really am not keen on them , but they have wonderful fluid movement.


I've ridden 3 over here - 1 stallion & 2 mares wasnt impressed with them, they felt rather stiff in the back & movement through the shoulders felt tight/stiff hard to explain- looked it too when ridden by owners & have seen many welsh d's that move the legs but not their backs even in the uk- thats most likely what I was feeling, sorry I cant explain better than that. I'm off to bed before my eyes fall out


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Surayya said:


> Thanks will have a squizz at the thread later its 4:30am here & I'm so tired.
> That stallion is young & has the largest amount of Bone per body weight in Nz - the others are much much taller with less bone
> 
> Short back, short broad loin & bum high is the strongest equine conformation you can get when coupled with a heavy forehand- thats why so many drafts are built that way, so they can pull MASSIVE loads easily, it's just not comfy for us to ride (nor as easy to fit a saddle to or as pretty imo) lol


...but you want a riding horse don't you, not a draft? A show heavyweight cob? 

Welsh D's have an extravagant movement with a high leg action but is shouldn't be stiff (maybe they had saddle fit problems the ones you tried)

Fitting a saddle to a bum high short coupled horse is indeed a nightmare and really isn't the conformation you want in any riding horse. Is that stallion still a baby and growing? Is that why it is mum high? If so it being that shape may not be an issue as it grows.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

You want to breed for a hardy horse, not necessarily a showy horse, right? I'd like to see recent pictures of the stallion, personally I _don't_ think he's bad. I did first notice his bum, but I don't see it as a problem as much. Although I did grow up with cow-type, working quarter horses so I'm a bit jaded towards being bum high, haha...

That filly is really bum high, but she's young, and once again, it's not something I see as a problem to deter you. 
I understand what you mean, every breed seems to be going for that flashy showy light boned type, less of the heavy workers now. 
The issues that seem to be coming up all seem like they're issues that depend on the person, but don't really matter. I think that if you feel like this is the best stallion, go for it if you're ready. Breed the best horse you can for YOU, and if the looks aren't the best, you can work on those later, when you KNOW you have what you want in other aspects. Because the whole point in this is for a horse for you, to continue breeding to make the horse that's perfect for you specifically, right? Not one you plan on selling or making a profit, so being up to anyone's standards but yours doesn't really matter, IMO. If your mare is proven to have good performance and works well for you, _despite_ her faults, and same for the stallion, you'll be fine.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

Clava said:


> ...but you want a riding horse don't you, not a draft? A show heavyweight cob?
> 
> Welsh D's have an extravagant movement with a high leg action but is shouldn't be stiff (maybe they had saddle fit problems the ones you tried)
> 
> Fitting a saddle to a bum high short coupled horse is indeed a nightmare and really isn't the conformation you want in any riding horse. Is that stallion still a baby and growing? Is that why it is mum high? If so it being that shape may not be an issue as it grows.


Yep on all accounts...
I only speak as I find with what available to me here ....Not alot in heavy body, big bone department - there's only one show over here that even has a Cob section & the hunter ring is FULL of FULL TBs - so solid isnt something that happens here to any real degree 
The welsh we have here are either not very good quality (they keep throwing horses who have tiny quarters which look a size to small for the horse they are attached too- this happens even with the 2 good stallions we have here), or of the 2 that might be fine to use 1 is too darn tall, the other WAY too small for what I'm looking for in a stallion (spoken to their owners & both felt I had little chance of getting what I'm after using their stallion- one said type maybe but would only mature 14hh-14.2hh max the other is a modern welsh so lacks depth throught the body & I'd be lucky to get a solid Dressage type WB rther than Hunter or Cob type- foal would also likely mature 15.3hh+ as his smallest is 16hh to smaller mares than mine)


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I believe with AI, the conception rate is higher than live cover. In fact here in my part of the world, no one, except ranches, does live cover. I don't even think there is a stallion standing to outside mares anywhere near. So you might want to check into that so you can get the breeding you want & your mare deserves.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

Clava said:


> Several of the horses in the links you posted are seriously over weight:shock:.
> 
> Short coupled is not a strong back when combined with it being bum high as well. I understand you wanting something smaller, I'm short too and last year I was in exactly the same position as you and I was looking at breeding my beautiful TB mare with the same type of stallion for a while but along with others (here is a very long thread about the discussion Husbands for Belle)
> 
> I can't really help with what is available in your country, but I think you need to look for more bone and a better overall conformation.


Thanks for trying with that link, but those stallions are the total opposite of what I'm looking for (I only went a far as page 4, then had enough of all the WB types lol)- I want full pony height stallion with massive deep body & a min of 10 & 1/2" bone (so the opposite of what you wanted as well lol)


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

waresbear said:


> I believe with AI, the conception rate is higher than live cover. In fact here in my part of the world, no one, except ranches, does live cover. I don't even think there is a stallion standing to outside mares anywhere near. So you might want to check into that so you can get the breeding you want & your mare deserves.


 Over here our horses still tend to live in LARGE paddocks/blocks & run in herds ranging from 2-5horses on small 4h blocks to 70+horses on the larger 80+h blocks - there's nothing better for breeding strong stock than the side of a mountain is pretty much the thought .
Live cover has the highest success rate here due to their lifestyles & the fact we like to turn them out on steep country for the first few years of their lives, many are out there until 4-6yrs old- those that are strong live, those that arent dont. I'd use those stallions however that means letting my mare go wild on 10,000+ acres, so not something I'm in any hurry to do!
Due to the way they are kept they are extremely well adjusted animals & we dont tend to get mares who panic when introduced to a stallion, in fact many stallions here are left to run with the mares so it is all natural with the horses deciding for themselves when the time is right with a 99% success rate (only very rearly does a mare not get in foal & you can go years between them). This way young horses learn the rules of life from the older horses & the horses thrive on it, BUT they can & do stress when AI is used & sometimes even when serving in hand is used, as its something they have no experience with & is as foreign as having a rider on their backs that 1st time. Over here they tend to grow up on the hills & watch their mothers & older mare herd mates being courted & served by stallions who know what to do as they'd in turn watched other stallions serving mares as foals.
Very very few people over here do anything other than live cover, though I know a few do offer AI so I guess it will increase as more imported horses come in.


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## cowboy1393 (Jan 4, 2012)

Some people sure know how to bash other peoples horses... find it interesting how some people know how to critique soooo many different breeds


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Herd breeding is natural. However, I know of no one here aside from owners who have little bands of miniature horses that herd breed. Fact-live cover (excluding herd breeding because face it, that's just not practical in this day & age) is 60% success, AI is %75 success rate in conceiving.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

waresbear said:


> Herd breeding is natural. However, I know of no one here aside from owners who have little bands of miniature horses that herd breed. Fact-live cover (excluding herd breeding because face it, that's just not practical in this day & age) is 60% success, AI is %75 success rate in conceiving.


Maybe in in your area & with the practices of your area these stats hold up - not here.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

cowboy1393 said:


> Some people sure know how to bash other peoples horses... find it interesting how some people know how to critique soooo many different breeds


Lol -Something I've noted as well, most I've taken with a grain of salt I promise 

I've had years of experience buying diamonds in the rough & almost never spend over a couple of hundred on a horse, yet all have turned out to be multiple discipline champions & have on-sold for thousands in under a year, so when people make statements I know to be plain false or correct in theory but wrong in reality, I'll say my piece & if the message isn't received, leave it 

I was asked the other day to look at a paso fino for someone however as I have no idea of the breeds confo regarding soundness & their unique gaits I said they'd be better talking to the breeder, as I could only tell them if the horse was sore or lame - I know the breed has very different shaped feet & structural angles from what I'm used to.

Thanks to those that offered help in links to stallions  .... as this has basically been a useless exercise I wont bother posting in here again.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

soenjer55 said:


> You want to breed for a hardy horse, not necessarily a showy horse, right? I'd like to see recent pictures of the stallion, personally I _don't_ think he's bad. I did first notice his bum, but I don't see it as a problem as much. Although I did grow up with cow-type, working quarter horses so I'm a bit jaded towards being bum high, haha...
> 
> That filly is really bum high, but she's young, and once again, it's not something I see as a problem to deter you.
> I understand what you mean, every breed seems to be going for that flashy showy light boned type, less of the heavy workers now.
> The issues that seem to be coming up all seem like they're issues that depend on the person, but don't really matter. I think that if you feel like this is the best stallion, go for it if you're ready. Breed the best horse you can for YOU, and if the looks aren't the best, you can work on those later, when you KNOW you have what you want in other aspects. Because the whole point in this is for a horse for you, to continue breeding to make the horse that's perfect for you specifically, right? Not one you plan on selling or making a profit, so being up to anyone's standards but yours doesn't really matter, IMO. If your mare is proven to have good performance and works well for you, _despite_ her faults, and same for the stallion, you'll be fine.


You are my last post here- as I happen to read your post before leaving  You are bang on in your assessment of my situation- someone who uses logic & listens, I like that 
I have found another stallion also a gypsy (fresh import) but waiting on conformation photos & bone measurements- I'm hoping this boy isnt as bum high as it does make for saddle fitting nightmares lol He's also a solid coloured silver dapple which I also like as I'm not a fan of pintos as a rule either 
Yes the foal will be for me & me alone & if not quite what I want conformation wise, she'll be put to a stallion that complements her without loosing the bone, body & cob/hunter type I want.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

^ but what if you get a colt? I read your post as that you will put the foal to a stallion if SHE is not what you want. Maybe that's not how you meant it, but that's how I read it.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

That is true... would you buy another mare to breed to him when he's old enough, and then sell him?


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