# Trick training gone wrong



## Kaylastacy12 (Jul 28, 2013)

I want to trick train my horses so I started with what I thought would be a simple easy trick, teaching him to give me "kisses" I always kiss my horses gently on the nose and they never have a problem with it. I trained my gelding to do this trick and he caught on to it in about two minutes and started doing it on command with a clicker. I had someone make a video of him doing this and I noticed he would sometimes pin his ears while he "kissed" me and then release them after the click. I didn't think much of it, but the next day when I started practicing the trick again he did it at first but them he reached up and bit me on the chest. Any idea why he did this? I'm guessing maybe he started thinking that he was making me give him treats by nudging me with his nose and became dominant? He isn't a mean horse and hasn't bit me before. I won't be doing the trick anymore, but I would still like to know why he may have decided to bite me and why the ear pinning while learning the trick? I assumed he should be having fun since food was involved.
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## barrelbeginner (Jan 31, 2012)

I have no advice. .but ouchhyy.. sorry about that.. hmmmm SUbbing as well to see what others think


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think if you do clicker training, you have to give the treat rewards in a certain way, and that is that the horse has to put their head to one side and wait to be GIVEN the treat. If they nuzzle you for food, they get nothing.

Sorry you got bitten, that must have been shocking.


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## Kaylastacy12 (Jul 28, 2013)

Yes it did shock me a little bit. I haven't had him very long but I always hand feed him treats and he takes them very gently and nicely. He is also very very interested in people. Constantly following any humans around and interested in what they are doing so I thought he would really enjoy trick training. I'm just thankful he didn't bite my face because he came really close. I'm starting to think he might have some food aggression?
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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

I don't think your guy ever thought of it as a 'kiss' - it was an action he used that got him a treat, presumably right after the click. He may have been ticked off when the treats stopped but the clicks were still there or he may have always been irritated by that particular trick and had had enough of the process. I suspect the latter as the ears laid back are a sign of dislike or hostility and sometimes both. It's probably for the best that you decided to take that trick off the menu.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Kaylastacy12 said:


> Yes it did shock me a little bit. I haven't had him very long but I always hand feed him treats and he takes them very gently and nicely. He is also very very interested in people. Constantly following any humans around and interested in what they are doing so I thought he would really enjoy trick training. I'm just thankful he didn't bite my face because he came really close. I'm starting to think he might have some food aggression?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
I am always a bit wary of horses that follow people around too closely. They sometimes exude a "possessive" attitude, like they are herding "their" humans. uh uh. I usually move them off of me. They may follow me, but not "herd" me.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Trix are for kids.... or so says the really old cereal commercial.

I'm sorry this happened. It could have been much worse.
I'm a wet blanket when it comes to teaching tricks. Maybe for entertainment professionals, but most of us do well to stick with teaching proper manners, etc. like standing still when you get on. What if some unsuspecting person was close, made some clicker sound and whammo! because they had no treat?
I know many will disagree and think tricks are fine, and that's okay. 
Just stay safe.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

That skilled clicker training gal is here, she's had a thread that's very informative; you should ask her about this.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I have taught some ponies to give kisses. You have to be very aware of the horses nature. Some get very very pushy or agressive when food is involved and those horses should never be taught using treats.
Also I never teach them to "Give" kisses, I teach them to offer thier nose for a kiss.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

This is the reason many of us are against trick training. 

A lot of it depends on the horse, and the human doing it as well.

And biting you is horse's way of saying it is in charge, not you.

Bad habit to have gotten started, and at this point, I would back off before horse does get you in face.

Watch too, for other signs horse is trying to dominate you, as they may pop up now.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Horses DO NOT 'give' kisses. Horses go through taught behaviors that some people want to 'call' kisses. Any taught behavior that intentionally puts a horse's teeth next to a person's nose or shoulder or ??? is not a 'good' behavior.

I inherited a horse to try to save from the killer truck one time. He was a real challenge. He was an Arabian. He had been taught to take a carrot out of his owner's mouth. One day the owner stuck his head forward but did not have a carrot sticking out of his mouth. Horse's ears went back and he dove at the guy's face. He broke several bones in his cheek and pulled off most of his nose and his cheek. Several Surgeries and skin grafts later he was still a mess. 

I had recently seen the guy and he had bragged how sweet and cute his horse was and how he would follow him around and give him kisses and look for carrots. I warned him about making a pet out of him and giving him kisses and treats. Next thing I know he was delivered to my house and 'given' to me if I could 'save' him.

You are not 'bonding' with a horse by making a pet out of it. It is not 'cute' to any horseman. JMHO


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

I only allow my horses to nuzzle me for a "kiss". If he did anything more, he would get punished into next week. (Didn't want to say "beat").


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

This is a really unfortunate side-affect of people training their horses with treats without understanding HOW to clicker train.
One big thing about food is it's a strong motivator. A horse WANTS to do what earns them food, they want to do it more and better all the time. They escalate each skill you teach them. You can use this to your advantage if you're informed and paying attention, molding skills into bigger and better skills. But if you aren't paying attention or molding the skill you're setting yourself up for failure. Feeding him for invading your space is a skill best saved for a well clicker-trained horse who has a great deal of impulse control and understanding of the language and the rules. If you aren't paying attention you can easily be rewarding behavior getting out of hand, many horses escalate touching with their nose to biting unless you're focused and molding correctly, you can use this escalation to teach them to fetch - but you don't want them fetching your nose!

All of my horses are trained with clicker training, the only one who knows any 'tricks' is my pony who kicks a football, the rest are just learning the same things that all horses learn. The clicker is a bridge signal that says "yes", once they know click=treat they need to learn HOW to take a treat. I start every horse I train by standing at their shoulder with my pouch full of food, when the horse stands calmly and faces forward, all 4 feet on the ground - I click+treat. I work on this until the horse no longer even looks in my direction to get the food. I then start walking around them - the horse needs to stand 4 on the ground facing forward no matter where I go - until I tell them otherwise. Typically I teach them to target from there and use the target to shape all their future skills.


If you or anyone else is interesting in learning how to safely and correctly use clicker training/positive reinforcement with horses please check out the thread. Please learn all the facts and science behind CT - it's a fantastically useful tool but it needs to be done correctly (just like every type of training!)
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/clicker-training-challenge-accepted-153311/


This is my favorite example of clicker training gone RIGHT! This is my mare, a previously spooky uncontrollable horse who could barely be lead on the ground without explosions. This is us now, learning about tarps this time. (I don't always ride tackless, this was just a special occasion - we were in a safe, controlled environment and I had a helmet on)


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I'm a fan of trick training. Done correctly it can reinforce good ground manners and give you fine control over every little movement the horse does. But, I also like to keep in mind what it is that you're teaching the horse to do. My horse came to me knowing several tricks- bow, cat stretch, the beginnings of Spanish walk, and giving kisses. I'm now working on teaching him to lie down on command. The bow and cat stretch are great. I love them.

But I can see how the kisses and Spanish walk could go awry. In teaching a horse to give kisses, he's been taught it's OK to stick his face in my face, which he will sometimes do if he knows I have treats and he's trying to figure out how to convince me to give them to him. He doesn't pin his ears when he does it, and he's never come close to hurting me, but I still consider it a bad habit because his head is big and hard and doing it just a little too enthusiastically could easily hurt me. As for the Spanish walk... well, I was told they started teaching it to him, but I've never seen him actually do it. He just pawed kind of high, mostly while standing in the cross tie- and he didn't care if there was someone in front of him or not. He managed to (lightly) kick me with this a couple times before I made it quite clear to him that not only was he NOT going to get a treat for randomly pawing the air, he was going to get a good smack instead. I might try and teach him Spanish walk again one day, but he will definitely learn when NOT to do it, too!


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Verona - those sorts of 'tricks' are all alright to teach, but it's best to teach important skills and get the horse really focused and responding _only_ on cue! My pony has a list of skills he knows, when he sees me getting out the CT stuff, he runs through the whole list offering me every skill he's learned - he's working very hard to get them only on cue and giving him a base-line of staying still while he waits for the cue. A horse like him I wouldn't teach anything I wouldn't want to see all the time until I have him on tight stimulus control. Like your horse clearly responds well only when cued, not otherwise anymore (like him pawing on cross ties)

My favorite way to teach laying down is to hose them off and bring them to a sandy area  C+T when they get ready to roll! Just make sure the horse is very good at only responding to cues, wouldn't want him laying down at the wrong time


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I keep thinking about this thread and it makes me really sad.  most people who read this are going to think "see this is why you don't give horses treats". But when I read this all I could think was "wow see how fast treats fan train a horse!" You taught your horse something potentially dangerous and you got hurt - not because the horse was bad but because you told him to do it. 
Please everyone, training with a food motivator is not dangerous when done right - just like every form of horse training. Put a kid in a round pen and thats just as dangerous, if not worse. Treats aren't the culprit and neither is the horse, the problem is people training when they dont have enough information, timing and skill to do it safely and correctly. 

OP, I do encourage you to continue clicker training but please learn all about it first and learn the rules and guidelines on how to be safe.


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## TrailDustMelody (Jun 23, 2013)

Hi PunksTank, I want to teach my horse to lay down the way you said. How, when, and what cue would you attach to it? She already knows several tricks with clicker training.


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## Kaylastacy12 (Jul 28, 2013)

I realize now that wasn't a good trick to teach him for his first one and I know it was my fault that I got bit! I plan on starting with the basic rules of clicker training with him and moving onto other tricks, but I don't plan on teaching anymore horses to give kisses ever again.
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## TrailDustMelody (Jun 23, 2013)

Kaylastacy12, you could try teaching him something like smile or target, stuff like that is probably safer.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Definitely read the thread I linked, its long but valuable!! For teaching the lay down make sure the horse is solid on only responding when cued. Spray them with the hose and bring them to a sandy area, when they start to go down c+t do this a whole bunch and jackpot when theyre all the way down. Repeat until they go on cue.  then you need an up cue too!


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Targetting is honestly my most valuable skill. I use it to teach a horse to lead and do unmounted agility, but also to help them overcome fears and to load on a trailer and to target their stall targets at feeding time. Its an exceptionally useful skill I think all CT horses should know


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## TrailDustMelody (Jun 23, 2013)

What cue would you use?


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Trail - for laying down? I just use a verbal cue, but you can use anything.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

To the Original Poster: There is a book on clicker training. You should see if the library has it, I know mine does. If the library doesn't have it, you may be able to ask them to get it for you from another library.

I've never taught my horse kisses (at least on the face) as I feel it is dangerous. I've taught targeting, Spanish walk, and bowing. Spanish walk is something to be very careful with, as you can get kicked. 

For the first lesson in clicker training, I teach backing up. I do not want to reward pushy behavior. By asking to back the horse is still respecting you (and learning to move away from you to get that reward, rather than towards you). My horses already know how to back, i just use it as an introduction to the clicker. Plus it is very useful to be able to use the voice command for back up and not have to have a lead on, not have to hold a whip up, or worry about the horse running out the gate when I am leading one in. 

Of course when starting, always use a halter and lead. And never ever give the horse a treat for putting his ears back! 

Targeting an object (like an orange cone) is one of the easiest things to teach and should be one of the first few lessons. Picking up an object should be next on the list.

If your horse is pushy, you need to do some groundwork in the roundpen. Even if I did teach my horses "kisses" on the face, I don't think they would ever "dream" about nipping me. My old mare social grooms with me without using her teeth, my young mare will kiss me all over with her tongue and doesn't use her teeth either. My young mare is a very kissy horse. I didn't teach her to do it, but she loves licking your hands/arms or even your jacket. I think it is an affection thing with her. 

Neither of them ever put their ears back towards me though. If they are dis-respectful, they get lunged, and they know it! 

Now if your horse is more dominant, pushy, or generally disrespectful, I probably wouldn't teach clicker training. 

You may need to work on backing up without treats (as he will probably show some attitude). Introduce the treats once he can back up on his own, just by you shaking the lead. Never treat all the time! Reward him inconsistently or if he looks like he is really "trying" hard. 

I use treats, just not very often and not every time I work the horse. I usually use treats if I am asking for a "special trick", or if I am loading the trailer. Every once in a while if I hit a snag while training, but not often.


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## Kaylastacy12 (Jul 28, 2013)

4horses said:


> To the Original Poster: There is a book on clicker training. You should see if the library has it, I know mine does. If the library doesn't have it, you may be able to ask them to get it for you from another library.
> 
> I've never taught my horse kisses (at least on the face) as I feel it is dangerous. I've taught targeting, Spanish walk, and bowing. Spanish walk is something to be very careful with, as you can get kicked.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice! I tried the target thing today and I'm pretty sure he got the idea! I got him to do it a few times. He is very food motivated though and I couldn't get him to stop nosing me for the treats. I really hope he isn't too dominant to use clicker training with him because I really want to teach him some tricks! He is a little disrespectful though. He is really interested in people and likes to get lots of human attention so naturally he gets a little too "in your space" sometimes. I had already thought about trying the backing up thing so maybe ill try that with him! Anymore advice on how I can get him to stop nosing for the treats? I smacked him on the nose when he would do it and he would stop but go right back to it. I don't want to make him head shy by constantly smacking his nose though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Kaylastacy12 said:


> Thanks for the advice! I tried the target thing today and I'm pretty sure he got the idea! I got him to do it a few times. He is very food motivated though and I couldn't get him to stop nosing me for the treats. I really hope he isn't too dominant to use clicker training with him because I really want to teach him some tricks! He is a little disrespectful though. He is really interested in people and likes to get lots of human attention so naturally he gets a little too "in your space" sometimes. I had already thought about trying the backing up thing so maybe ill try that with him! Anymore advice on how I can get him to stop nosing for the treats? I smacked him on the nose when he would do it and he would stop but go right back to it. I don't want to make him head shy by constantly smacking his nose though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Please, please, please read the thread I linked too. It doesn't matter how "dominant" your horse is you can use CT to train them to behave correctly. You just need to do it correctly. Rewarding him even once when he's in your space is dangerous. Please read the thread I linked to so you can understand the science behind clicker training.

Whenever I syart ANY horse with clicker training I use this exercise, the pushy ones I do this for a long while. I stand by their shoulder with my purse full of treats and wait. They usually start by going nuts trying to circle me to get their nose in the purse, I quietly persist and wait for a brief moment when they put their head forward and CT. I repeat this until they connect the dots. Once the horse is consistantly facing forward with all 4hooves on the ground with me at their shoulder I take a step back toward their belly, and CT until theure good about staying still when I'm there too. I do this until I can walk alll around the horse without yhem moving. 
At this point I move on to targetting. Until I can safely move around my horse without getting mugged itsbnot safe to do other things. Your horse hasnt learned yet that muggibg doesnt work so he's trying to rule out that option - but theres a much safer way to teach him. Look up Shawna Karrasch's "how to start a clicker trained horse" on youtube. Please read the thread, buy some books, please educate yourself. Any form of horse training can be dangerous if you dont understand It completely. 
Another thing you'll want to learn from the thread I linked to is about session duration, the lessons should be short, sweet and frequent. You'll also want to learn about intermittent reinforcement if you ever want to stop giving him treats for the same skill. And about the difference between positive and negative reinforcement and positive and negative punishment and about which is and isnt safe to be used together. The thread looks long but its only the first few pages of initial information, the rest is conversation and discussion. Please learn more about CT.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Kaylastacy12 said:


> Thanks for the advice! I tried the target thing today and I'm pretty sure he got the idea! I got him to do it a few times. He is very food motivated though and I couldn't get him to stop nosing me for the treats. I really hope he isn't too dominant to use clicker training with him because I really want to teach him some tricks! He is a little disrespectful though. He is really interested in people and likes to get lots of human attention so naturally he gets a little too "in your space" sometimes. I had already thought about trying the backing up thing so maybe ill try that with him! Anymore advice on how I can get him to stop nosing for the treats? *I smacked him on the nose when he would do it and he would stop but go right back to it.* I don't want to make him head shy by constantly smacking his nose though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is really not a good idea. Let me explain the basic science behind Clicker Training.
There are 4 different ways ALL creatures learn (including you), when I list these 4 ways please think of Positive and Negative as Addition and Subtraction - not good and bad.

Negative Reinforcement - the _removal_ of something _unwanted_ to *increase* the frequency of behavior
This is what is most commonly used in horse training, we apply pressure, when we get the desired response we relieve the pressure telling them they did the right thing. The pressure can be anything from your mere presence to beating them with a stick, any form of pressure, the relief of it is what teaches the horse they did the right thing.
Positive Reinforcement - The _Addition_ of something _desired_ to *increase* the frequency of behavior
This is what clicker training works off of, we add something the horse wants to increase the frequency of the horse performing that behavior. We use a bridge signal to mark the exact moment they did the right thing, bridging the food reward. We also have to work hard to bring those behaviors on to a cue, so they aren't offered at unwanted times. We do this by not rewarding behaviors offered without the cue... which leads me to:
Negative Punishment - The _removal_ of something _desired_ to *Decrease* the frequency of behavior
So when a horse offers us a behavior that we haven't asked for (including things like mugging) we remove (or do not provide) the thing they want (the food reward) - I bet your parents have used this on you, "no TV until you finish your homework"
Positive Punishment - The _Addition_ of something _unwanted_ to *decrease* the frequency of behavior.
This is adding pressure or some other unwanted stimulus to make a horse not want to repeat the same behavior. Like smacking his nose.

The problem is, for your horse right now, the reward is outweighing the punishment for this particular behavior - mugging you is getting him food, sometimes it gets him smacked, well the reward is strong enough right now to make him willing to get those occasional smacks because the food is so good.
Using both Positive Reinforcement and Positive Punishment at the same time is a VERY conflicting message for the horse and can really knock the "try" right out of him. With Positive Reinforcement we try to shape the behavior we want by clicking at the right time and developing the skill to be more and more correct. (like teaching my pony to jump, clicking at the bottom of the jump made the jumps flatter and flatter, clicking at the top of the jump made the jumps higher and higher). We can also use direct pressure to guide our horse to making the right decision, mixing Positive and Negative reinforcement (like teaching a horse to steer with reins, you apply gentle (*non-escalating*) pressure to one rein, when the horse turns you C+T. I say non-escalating pressure because in traditional and natural horsemanship if the horse doesn't respond you escalate the pressure until they do respond, with CT we guide our horses to teach them the right decision, if the pressure confuses them we'll use a target to guide them - some start right off with the target and skip pressure all together.

But when you mix Positive Reinforcement with Positive Punishment you are asking the horse to "guess what I want you to do?" the horse guesses, if he guesses wrong he gets smacked in the face - if he guesses right he gets a treat. Well some horses might keep guessing, others would probably not want to try for fear of what might happen if they guess wrong. 



Go back to the basics of teaching this horse how to take a treat. Do the standing at his shoulder exercise, if he gets to be too much in your space shake your body to move him off you, don't hit him. If he's still too aggressive start from outside his stall so he can't actually touch you. If you C+T at the right time it shouldn't take more than 5 minutes for him to learn this new game. I would repeat this game for at least 10 sessions of 5 minutes until you can walk into your horses stall or pasture and he's standing all 4 on the ground and facing front ready for his game. 

Here is a video of Shawna teaching a horse how to be polite: Video 1


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## Kaylastacy12 (Jul 28, 2013)

Punkstank.... You have some really good advice! I will try that with him and see how it goes!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kaylastacy12 (Jul 28, 2013)

So what if he just keeps mugging me a a trying to get the treat? I should just stand there and wait for him to back off? Don't smack him or push him away?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Kaylastacy12 said:


> Punkstank.... You have some really good advice! I will try that with him and see how it goes!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All of this advice is in the thread I linked too - and more useful skills to teach a horse. You don't need to know all the science but if you don't have a clicker trainer there with you in person you really should learn as much about it as you can. You are all your horse has, you want to be sure you're doing things right for him.
It's only the first couple pages that has information, the rest is conversation and people showing what they've done with it.
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/clicker-training-challenge-accepted-153311/


If you learn the science and work really hard with your horse you can literally teach your horse to do anything they are physically capable of doing. This is Georgia Bruce a famous clicker trainer with her horses:





This is a young girl's submission to the "World Clicker Equine Games"


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Kaylastacy12 said:


> So what if he just keeps mugging me a a trying to get the treat? I should just stand there and wait for him to back off? Don't smack him or push him away?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you can safely stand and wait by his shoulder (stay with his shoulder -he'll probably circle you a bit) then do that until he looks forward, C+T when he does, at first he'll get really excited, then he'll calm down and think it through, realizing that standing calmly and facing forward is what earns his reward, not mugging. If he's too aggressive for that start on the other side of the stall door. If you watch the video I linked to first you'll see exactly how to do it.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

This is a very interesting thread... I've never even heard of clicker training, before :O


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## Kaylastacy12 (Jul 28, 2013)

I did watch the video! I'm so excited to try it! I'm going to do it in his stall this time. I was standing on the other side of a fence when I got bit and he always acts nippy when someone is petting him over a fence. I think it must make him frustrated or something
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

watch horses play , they will face nip each other. He was doing was is natural.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

To a certain extent everything we do with horses is a sort of a trick - because its not part of their natural lifestyle
Its how we condition them to do these things that matters - and the most important part of that process is establishing very firm rules and being sure that we aren't actually training them to do something that can lead to a bad habit or a dangerous one
No horse should expect a treat every time it 'performs' - the treat can be a reward for new learning but once the learning's established the treat can be removed from the picture altogether
Looking 'hopeful' for a treat is OK but getting pushy and demanding isn't and teaching a horse not to do this can be a good part of its training to respect authority


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Oooohhh, this is such a peeve of mine. My girlfriend teaches all her horses to "kiss." I HATE it. They will come right up and just "kiss" anyone. When I flap them away, they are shocked. Well, I warned my friend. She's OK with me doing that. If she wasn't, I wouldn't go near her horses. At least one person is teaching them to stay out of human space unless welcomed in. 

I wish my friend had access to the internet; I would send her this thread.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Your horse should not be pushing on you or invading your space. This is where it is good to have a solid foundation on groundwork. 

Before you go back to clicker training, take him out to the round pen and walk trot canter him both directions. Ask him to whoa and yield his hindquarters away from you. Put a lead on (if you need it) and ask him to back. Ideally he should back without a lead on.

He should be respectful by the end of the lesson. Now you can start with clicker training the back up. Ask him to back 4 steps, click and reward. It shouldn't take long and he should be moving away from you. If he is touching you/nosing you as you back him, then you aren't doing it right. Raise your hands, shake the lead and say back and walk straight towards him as if you will run into him. You may need a whip if he is really stubborn about backing. If he is respectful he will move out of your way. Repeat it with the clicker 3-4 times and quit for the day.

I do not like to spend more than 5 minutes working on clicker training unless it is something really challenging like Spanish walk or bowing. Maximum of 10 minutes. 

Another yielding exercise you can do with the clicker is side-stepping. Again you are asking the horse to move away from you. 

I have been run over (and luckily unharmed) too many times to ever tolerate a pushy horse. If he is nosing you, back him up! Get him out of your space. You don't have to beat him or hit him in the nose, but push on him and make him move away from you. I don't care if you ask him to move sideways, back, or just move his head away. 

Are you familiar with the porcupine game by parelli? 






Horse Training Games - the Porcupine Game

I'm not a real big parelli fan, but he does do a good job explaining pressure and release! 

Do not reward pushy behavior! If he is all over you, he is being pushy.


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## Kaylastacy12 (Jul 28, 2013)

I try the parelli game on him where you push on their nose and they are supposed to back. He gets really ****ed when I do that and pins his ears lol. Oh and he doesn't really trot or canter either. Before I got him he was strictly a trail horse so I'm not sure if he was even ever made to trot or canter. I'm trying to work on his manners before I even get to that step. Guess I have my work cut out for me!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kaylastacy12 (Jul 28, 2013)

I feel like I'm making him sound really bad in these posts but he is actually a really good horse. He behaves so well when riding, his old owner just treated him like a big puppy and let him get away with anything so that's why he thinks its ok. He seems really smart though so I have confidence that I can turn him into a really great horse on the ground too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

This horse did not just bite you 'out of the blue'.



> I try the parelli game on him where you push on their nose and they are supposed to back. He gets really ****ed when I do that and pins his ears lol.


 Really? lol? This is funny?

This statement tells me that this horse is VERY disrespectful and has VERY BAD MANNERS. The last thing you need to be doing with him is teaching him 'tricks' and 'games'. The first thing you should be doing is establishing respect and good manners before he takes a hunk out of you or some poor unsuspecting person that gets near him. 

You have NO idea that this horse could become just one of the many vicious horses that end up being put down or sent to the killers because they went from this behavior to attacking people. I am just sitting here shaking my head because you think that this horse threatening you with ears back is funny.


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## Kaylastacy12 (Jul 28, 2013)

I don't think it's funny. Obviously I realize it is a problem or I wouldn't have posted this thread? I know that he is disrespectful that's why I'm asking for advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

OP- it sounds to me like you don't have a full understanding of horse training as a whole. It does sound like your horse knows that he can get away with anything if he just pins his ears.
When you use pressure and release, like parrelli or any traditional or natural horse trainer, you need to apply escalating pressure until the horse responds. You using negative reinforcement and positive punishment, when you ask for something you need to ask more and more extremely until the horse responds. If the horse is pushy or rude you use positive punishment by either scaring or hurting them or making them work. 

Your other option is to use clicker training, with positive reinforcement and negative punishment. You can piggy back positive reinforcement on to negative reinforcement but you shouldnt mix it with positive punishment. I've used CT alone with very pushy horses and including a belgian just the other day. I just stayed at his shoulder until he stopped circling me and faced forward. In about 10 minutes (2 sessions at 5 minutes) he no longer came into my space at all. I could walk a full circle around him without him moving, if I went up to his neck and walked off he stayed with me at the proper distance. He no longer looks to me for food, he looks to himself, what does he need to do to get the reward. You can piggyback CT onto negative reinforcement, like the parrelli games or something else, by clicking when he responds correctly. The nice thing about positive reinforcement is that you dont need to escalate the pressure, the horse will escalate the skill you teach him himself. Personally to teach my horses to back up I stand in front and wave my hands in theur direction and take a step toward them saying "back up" - my horse know the CT thing so theyre looking for what they need to do to get the reward, most try backing up quickly, but if he doesnt catch on you can use the target to teach them to back up. This is why my order of training goes - stand respectfully, touch target, lead with target at fast walk, slow walk and stopping square, then back up, then lead with target at fast trot, slow trot and trot-walk and trot-halt transitions. Then I go on to teach them to lunge off voice cues, then give to a bridle of their preference, then line-driving. From there I usually work on despooking with the horse, if the horse hasnt needed it already - I despook to everything I can think of and more teaching them how to react when they're concerned. Then I move on to mounted work, CT all the way.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Colour me mean if you like but when I bought Flo she'd been badly hand reared, never seen another horse and at 15 hands and 3 years old behaved like an out of control Labrador puppy - as a foal they'd even encouraged her to stand up and put her front hooves on their shoulders. Handling her involved her being sedated and the person needing full body protection, she wasn't aggressive, she just had never been taught manners or boundaries
I could have spent months porcupining her (Gosh who thinks of these new age words!!!) and playing 'lets get together games' but I had no time for that so she was whacked very hard with a sawn of section of a wooden broom handle. Just once - and I have never needed to hit her again.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I'd like to add, with some horses and with some humans pressure and release can be really stressful and bring out aggressive behaviors that a horse might not naturally present unless stressed like this. If you start with CT you can teach a horse to respond to pressure without the escalation and without the frustration. With CT you're focused on marking the behaviors the horse does correctly, focusing on the good, with pressure and release you're focused on what they're not doing or not doing enough. 

The way I think of pressure and release is like an old boss of mine. He never told me I did a good job, he always told me when I needed to do something better or work harder, always nagging - when I was doing everything perfect he just left me alone. Him being so annoying I was happy he left me alone, but it left me pretty miserable or frustrated whenever I saw him coming. I was not a happy worker. While I'm happy for constructive criticism I also want to be told when I'm doing things right. CT is our way of saying "yes thats what I want to see more of".


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Last post I promise  I also find meeting violence with violence can get you either a submissive horse instantly, or the horse will rise to your challenge. Maybe an experienced horse person can escalate their viooence to a point that a stubborn horse will give in, but I'd be very afraid for the OP if her horse decided that being whacked was a challenge worth fighting.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I have never had a problem with pressure and release. If it comes out of as 'nagging', it is exactly what I always warn against. Never, never nag and peck at a horse. People that have ANY problems with 'pressure and release' are simply not doing it correctly.

When pressure and release is done correctly, the pressure is firm enough in the beginning for the horse to move from it. It should never be released until the correct response from a horse is received.

Spoiled horses will give a LOT of 'push back' and sometimes require a LOT of pressure to change their bad attitude. It is always better to 'over-correct' and then back off than to use too little pressure. Too little pressure often results in a horse more resolved to push -- sometimes to the point of attack. A horse that has been at the top of your 'pecking order' of two (you and the horse) sometimes gives up that top spot very reluctantly. If you use 'pressure and release' correctly, good manners can be established in a couple of sessions. 

The idea that you would try to teach a horse to invade your space and 'give kisses' when the same horse would lay its ears back at you (a very direct threat) and does not have very basic manners that keep it out of your space tells me that you do not understand horse behavior and horse interaction between each other and people. *You MUST be at the top of your pecking order of 2.*


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## Kaylastacy12 (Jul 28, 2013)

I plan on doing the CT for sure. I'm going to start him in his stall learning the clicker like in the Sarah Kessling video. This is more my style as I am used to training dogs with positive reinforcement methods (yes I know horses aren't dogs and I don't need a lecture on that) I do understand horse training but I just started him the wrong way. Ill be using the clicker to help him learn good manners and then hopefully I can still teach him a few tricks once he's ready. I also think a lot of his problem has to do with the fact that he lives with a mare and he has become very dominant over her, bossing her around, not wanting to share food, etc. When I first got him, he had bad manners but the agression got worse when she started letting him boss her. does anyone think that if I separated them that this might help? I feel like her letting him boss her is constantly reinforcing his rude bossy behavior
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Kay, he's a dominant horse. Theres going to be a dominant horse in every herd, in a herd of two you have a 50/50 chance. How he treats other horses shouldnt affect how he treats you. I would only seperate them if the mare were being caused stress and not being able to eat or getting hurt. 
The truth is being a dominant leader of a herd is a really lonely position. I bet he'd be happy to have you teach him in a positive way.

Also, you're right horses are not dogs - but the truth is, all livibg creatures learn the same ways.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

While all mammals share some same learning characteristics, horses and dogs do not learn the same way.

One is a 'pack animal' and one is a 'herd animal'.

One is a 'prey animal' and the other is a 'predator'. 

They learn very differently and they respond very differently to negative stimuli and positive stimuli. A lot of people want to resist this observance of many trainers and experienced horse people, but a horse learns just as quickly and happily when the ONLY positive reinforcement they receive is the removal of all pressure. Using positive reinforcement in horse training is only a requirement or non-requirement of the handler and not the horse. Positive reinforcement often times only confuses a horse and is never a required part of teaching a horse useful knowledge.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^To say that all living creatures learn the same way is over simplifying things a bit, since horses don't have higher cognitive functioning... Heh.
Hopefully things are going a bit more smoothly for you, OP.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

K I didn't read all of the responses and I'm sure this has been said...

If I were you I would 100% disassociate the thought of you/humans ='s food. Period.
I'd also give him HECK the next time he did this, got in your space, or even a funny look.

Any food related trick can and most often does escalate into bad behavior. Horses are pretty nasty capitalists, big ones, with hooves.

My old gelding was taught to drink beer out of cans, bad bad idea. Not taught by me!
One time while camping DH and I went on a hike, left horses grazing around our cabin with the coolers stacked, bungied, and covered but unattended. I knew he might try, I had often had to beat him off them which was pretty annoying, but thought I had taught him to quit.
Rooster annihilated them. Ate every bit of food and drank every beer while we were gone. We had to drive 45 miles to go get more.

Granted this didn't happen to my person, but what would have happened if I turned my back and a kid was in his way? Back then he was 16+ HH and 1,500+ Lbs of pure muscle. I had to worry about him constantly when it came to drinks and food. Even when he appeared to be "broke" of this habit.

You need to stop this as soon as possible. It's already in his head.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

When I say all living creatures learn the same, I mean the basic principles of learning apply to all animals, maybe I should phrase it like that from now on. 

A horse can learn from +reinforcement just as well as a dog, the idea of a horse being confused greatly undermines the intelligence of these animals. Honestly if they can figure out -Reinforcement they can certainly understand +reinforcement. If they can connect the release of pressure with the action they can certainly connect the bridge with the correct action. CT only leads to frustration when the trainer has poor timing or a lack of understanding of the basic principles of how to train - this is the same No matter what style of training you use. I've seen most horses in the world with -R training who are beyond frustrated with people with poor timing with their release andmost leads to aggression as well. So to say +R leads to frustration is true, but no more than -R.

The truth is -R does work in training, I do use it, I don't use +Punishment. -R is only useful if you are willing to escalate the pressure to the point of hurting your horse if needed. If a horse pins his ears when you ask for something and the horse is confused or frustrated with -R if they don't respond correctly you need to escalate the pressure until they respond, even if it means hurting them. If you, as the trainer, aren't willing to escalate your pressure to the point of actually hurting your horse if you need to you need to either get a well broke horse who isn't going to test you OR you need to find an alternative training method.


Now if you think all CT leads to frustrated horses why not look back at those pictures and videos I posted, not a single one of them look frustrated  The one who's learning to face forward and stand calmly doesn't look frustrated, in fact he looks thrilled! 


If you want to talk bad about CT please learn all the facts.
Here are some resources to learn about CT
This one applies directly tot his conversation about poor timing and feeding treats without rules and how to fix the bad behaviors:
If you give a horse a cookie… | Stale Cheerios Blog
"Food in and of itself does not cause a horse to behave poorly. However, poor or inconsistent training practices can and will encourage many of these unwanted behaviors. Most clicker training programs use food rewards in a very structured way. Food is predictable–the horse knows exactly when and where the treat will appear. The horse learns rules about when food will appear and manners about how to take food."

Here's a bunch of "Frustrated" horses, doing all sorts of _useful _things because they want to 
aboutclickertraining


Here's a good step by step guide with some real FACTS based on Science
Step-By-StepTrainingGuide

This is Shawna's blog and full of useful skills and information
On The Ground : On Target Training with Shawna Karrasch


Everyone is entitled to their own training styles and opinions, but don't trash others unless you know all the facts. I'm sure there are just as many horses "ruined" by +R trainers as -R trainers, in fact probably more -R horses because more people use it. The problem isn't the style it's people who aren't educated trying to train horses beyond their capability.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

How I feel they differ is this way:

'Natural' horses' two most important 'hard wired' instincts are their HERD INSTINCT and their FLIGHT INSTINCT. Almost all of our training involves us controlling those two natural instincts -- either by 'using' that instinct or 'prohibiting' a horse from using it. I can offer dozens of examples for people that do not understand them and how we 'use' them. 

The fact that horses are one of the fastest animals on land means that their 'flight instinct' is their most important means of escaping a predator. When given a chance, they flee. They almost always fight only when cornered and unable to flee. Their first choice is flight.

The fact that donkeys are slow, dictates that they escape being eaten by stopping and facing the predator. This is why donkeys and mules train so differently than horses. It is pretty hard to use a 'flight instinct' in an animal that does not have much of one. The fact that they stop and face and fight the predator is also why they are put in with cattle to protect them from dogs and other predators.

Having this flight instinct means that ALL horses move from pressure if they understand it as pressure. A predator that is chasing it is the ultimate pressure. The only reward the horse needs is that it is not eaten when it outruns the predator. The only reward it needs and understands is a lack of pressure.

On the other hand, predators survive when they chase, hopefully catch and eat some prey animal. They receive a positive reward when they catch the meal. It is the ultimate 'food reward' to be able to eat what you catch. Pack animals learn to use cooperation and the pack to be more successful predators as opposed to lone hunters that stalk their prey. 

This predator instinct is why so many people fail when they try to use punishment and scolding to train dogs. it is also why people that try to train with rewards like food and positive reinforcement also fail at getting much done training a horse. The reward come too late and the good desired behavior is often interrupted (or punished) in order for the handler to give the horse the reward. It can really confuse a horse.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Again, everyone is entitled to their opinions and choices, but the results can't be debated.

I wish people would check out my links there's a lot of science and facts mixed in there 

This is one that specifically answers your question about why, even though they're a prey animal, they're still easily trained with CT.
Our Equine Clicker Training Methods | Cascade Institute of Equestrian Studies

Also in the clicker training thread I keep referring everyone to, on the third page it clearly explains why CT works for all animals, not just predators.


jillybean19 said:


> Excellent question and one that I've also seen come up a lot.
> 
> Bottom line, every living thing needs energy and usually devotes the majority of its life working to obtain it by consuming food in some way/shape/form. Horses are no exception. It is a simple fact of life: horses need food to survive and so they work for it - whether they're in the wild and searching for grazing grounds or domesticated and chasing the rest of the herd off their flake of hay. Since horses work so hard to obtain their food simply to stay alive, it's an easy thing to exploit as a reinforcer/motivator in clicker training, especially if you use something like _enjoy_ eating and don't get all the time.
> 
> ...




I can tell you with my own horse her desire for the C+T has helped her overcome her flight instinct. My mare who was terrified of life itself has overcome all of her fears, she's confident and eager to work - with the use of CT. I can tell you I tried -R with her and when she was afraid the level of violence it took to get her to give in was beyond what I was willing to do to an animal I claimed to love. When she was afraid of going through her gate I lunged, yielded, whipped, and backed this horse for several hours before she gave me one step out the gate. I needed to _hurt_ her to the point she thought I was going to kill her if she didn't go through something she was sure was terrifying, but she _still_ was sure that the scary thing she didn't know was way more scary than me. I'm not willing to hurt my animal at that level. Straight up bribery didn't work either, just leaving the gate of her dry lot open into a field of grass got her to reach out her head, but never take that step. But after a week of CT confidence building and targetting I had her walking in and out the gate and all around my property. Now she goes wherever without questions. 
If you aren't willing ot escalate to the level of violence it takes to FORCE a horse to do what you ask, then you need to make them _want _to do what you ask. Those are your options. Some horses may only take some quiet persuasion to get them to obey, while others will fight tooth and nail, it's up to you to decide what level of aggression is more than you're willing to instill on your horse and whether or not it will actually work in the end, are you strong enough to hurt your horse enough to _make_ them obey? If you physically or emotionally aren't strong enough maybe you should look into alternatives. CT is the other option, it makes the horse _want_ to work for you, because finally there's something in it for them.

You don't have to use it but _please_ learn about it before you trash it. Don't just scan my posts and slam it down, read the articles, learn the science.


ETA: If a goldfish can be clicker trained a horse can! xD


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> when she was afraid the level of violence it took to get her to give in was beyond what I was willing to do to an animal


If you used violence, it was a HUGE mistake. That is not the kind of pressure it takes and it is certainly not what I suggested you should do. It is always the wrong thing to do. It only gets a horse 'reactive' and 'on the fight' and no reactive horse is learning anything good.



> When she was afraid of going through her gate I lunged, yielded, whipped, and backed this horse for several hours before she gave me one step out the gate. I needed to _hurt_ her to the point she thought I was going to kill her if she didn't go through something she was sure was terrifying, but she _still_ was sure that the scary thing she didn't know was way more scary than me. I'm not willing to hurt my animal at that level


This SO WRONG. Why on earth would you do this to get a horse out of a gate? Who on earth told you to do these things? It certainly was not me. Why do your treat these bad examples of 'pressure and release' as the only kind of pressure and release. They are all BAD examples of a misused technique. If you needed to "hurt' her, you were sure not doing it right!



> If you aren't willing ot escalate to the level of violence it takes to FORCE a horse to do what you ask, then you need to make them _want _to do what you ask.


Properly applying the right kind of pressure (never violence) DOES make a horse want to do the right thing. The handler just needs to be good at it and needs to know how to be smarter than the horse instead of trying to be bigger and meaner than the horse. This requires knowledge and technique -- not violence or a clicker. You just have to know how to teach a horse where the release of pressure is. 

I have never had to hit a horse, yell at a horse or hurt a horse to get one in a trailer, through a gate, into a barn or into a stall. I have made 'house calls' only to find people that had to go to the ER, horses with whip marks, cuts and welts all over them, horses that needed to be sewn up, heads completely skinned up, trailers that had been torn up and one horse with broken withers from flipping up-side-down in a driveway. All of these horses quietly and fearlessly walked into a trailer within a few minutes of my getting there. No violence, no stress, no fear. 

Technique and knowledge is everything.

I am not anti-clicker training. I have just personally never needed it. I have never found it necessary so have not had a use for it. Why would I want to use a clicker if I can get a horse to do anything I want it to do without one? I very thoroughly understand how to use pressure and release -- usually very light pressure. The people that cannot get it to work for them just do not know how to use it very well. They are usually applying too much pressure and are getting a 'reaction' and 'resistance' instead of a 'response'. Almost every horse has a point where too much pressure results in them 'getting 'on the fight'. Hot bloods and very reactive horses hit that point much more quickly than a lot of other horses.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Your absolutely right, violence wasnt the right option. That was suggested to me on this forum as well as by professional trainers who helped me. CT is the tool I found to be the most helpful for reactive, pushy, or/and aggressive horses. The point of this story is to show how every style of training can be used wrong with poor results. I still use -R but only together with +R.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If someone finds that something works well for them and their horse and has such good results as PunksTank has had - that mare is a complete turnaround then I can't find fault with it
I would say the same for any method regardless of if it was something I used myself or not because its the end result that matters
I can actually remember when she was told to take a much more aggressive approach with her by some Forum members and I think we spoke by PM back then that its wasn't the right way to go.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Cherie said:


> This predator instinct is why so many people fail when they try to use punishment and scolding to train dogs.


Whereas I TOTALLY agree with your whole post, I had to point out how TRUE your comments are about dogs. I get NoWhere FAST with physical punishment with my BC x, "Rose." I make a big impression by ordering her to the basement, where she lays on the cement in the heat, and eats and is safe, BUT isn't fun when I, the pack leader, am outside "playing."
I also get nowhere fast if I punish her for NOT coming when I call. I am successful when I make a big fuss when she comes to a call, and she improves.
I don't know about anybody else, but I get spooky when my horses want to put their faces next to mine, beyond the occasional blow "Hello." I just don't like and won't tolerate it. 
IMO tricks should be functional, like teaching them to lay down so you can get on easily.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Like I said, I have nothing against clicker training or any other method if it works to produce the results you want without stressing out or fighting the horse. 

But, tell me something about clicker training: What happens if a horse is sold to a different handler / trainer? Does the horse work well for anyone else or does the new owner need to be taught how to use a completely different system? Along the way with clicker training, is the horse taught to respond correctly to the common aids and cues that everyone else uses? 

I have seen a few horses that were trained by entirely different methods to entirely different cues. No one else could do anything with the horse. 

Normally, about any accomplished rider can get on about any other accomplished rider's horse and it will operate quite well. I have seen a horse that was qualified for and shown in the preliminary round of the AQHA World Championship show by one rider. The rider was injured in a bad fall before the finals. A different rider / trainer showed the horse in the finals with 1 brief ride on it the afternoon of the finals and won the AQHA World Championship in the very difficult Open Working Cowhorse Class. Obviously, this horse was trained by very common methods that were very interchangeable from trainer to trainer. 

So, can anyone else ever get good well-trained responses from a clicker trained horse. Since I spent my whole life training horses that anyone else could ride, I have always thought it very important to use very common and well-understood aids and cues. Does it confuse these horses to use different aids and different cues? Please enlighten me. I am not trying to be nasty. I genuinely want to know. Cherie


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

There really isn't much of a difference between training a horse and training a dog other than size. You use pressure and release with dogs- Everything from pressing down on the dog to teach sit, to pulling on the leash and releasing for teaching heel. Clicker training is vastly the same between dogs and horses. Again horses are bigger! As for the predator prey thing there are some differences- certainly you can't round pen a dog! A horse will tolerate more abuse than a dog due to their flight instinct. 

If you can clicker train a dog to do an agility course, why wouldn't be able to do the same with your horse?

I think this is a misconception: " It is also why people that try to train with rewards like food and positive reinforcement also fail at getting much done training a horse." 

Clicker training works really well when done right. Pressure and release work really well when done right. Both can end in disaster if done the wrong way. 

It depends on what you want in your relationship with your horse. Do you want a relationship with your horse other than the boss-worker type or do you want more of a friendship? It's not mutually exclusive.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Cherie said:


> I have seen a few horses that were trained by entirely different methods to entirely different cues. *No one else could do anything with the horse. *


Agreed. I am a BIG proponent of teaching STANDARD CUES and training standards to all horses so that they can look forward to something of a happy life after they change owners again.
I wish there was a survey to tell everyone the average # of owners a horse has in his lifetime. =/
_Ironically_, I am the 3rd owner of all three of my current herd.
As a perspective, when I bought "Tyke" (15yo, QH/TWH, 1970-1998, RIP), all of the other 7 owners contacted me to see him. Go figure.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Cherie - thats a great question "how can you find a new home for a clicker trained horse".
This is why my clicker trained horses are taught to respond to pressure cues. I use non-escalating pressure to cue the skill I want, c+t to reinforce it. The clicker is only used to teach the skill, not used for all eternity. When a skill has been learned you can either reduce the reinforcement or you can increase the criteria of the skill. Like asking for a more collected or extended trot rather than just a trot. I never stop training my horses, I'm always CTing for something new, but other peoppe ride my other horse and the rescues I train without using CT. The skill has been taught, the horse knows what's expected of them. My horses are taught to respond to all sorts of tack options, bits, bitless and no tack. I expect them to listen 100% of the time, food or not, the rewards are just used to teach the new skill or reinforce a skill that may be lacking.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'd never heard about clicker training until quite recently and I'm the sort of person that would normally 'pooh pooh' that sort of thing but it was suggested to me when my traditional methods weren't going as well with Looby as I normally expect (she came with a catalogue of issues) so it seemed like I had nothing to lose by trying it
I've been amazed at the change in her attitude and how fast and how well she responded to it - As each obstacle is overcome and the learning or acceptance established I slowly remove the CT and just use the traditional cues that I was using alongside the CT
I now have a pretty much normal horse instead of one that would go into hyper panic mode at the slightest hint of pressure to do something she felt she wasn't happy with.
I've since tried it out on all my horses with new learning things or stuff they had always had small phobias about and been impressed with how well its worked


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## danny67 (Nov 27, 2012)

Hmm, so is this bad behaviour then too? hee hee. I loves me some sloppy horse kisses.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Yeah, that'll be _loads_ of fun when he decides to take your face off with those teeth. Hee hee.


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## danny67 (Nov 27, 2012)

oh! He would NEVER do that! He also bows for treats.


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## LovesMyDunnBoy (Aug 11, 2011)

I have a Great Dane who knows plenty of tricks, and when she gets excited about food her paw along with those nails start flailing for hand shakes and high fives to get her treats. She's scratched me pretty good. Needless to say, I wouldn't teach my horse to flail his teeth and heavy head at my face to get a treat. Spanish walk, bow, smile.. Those would be okay. But hand shakes, pawing, kisses, and rearing I probably wouldn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

LovesMyDunnBoy said:


> I have a Great Dane who knows plenty of tricks, and when she gets excited about food her paw along with those nails start flailing for hand shakes and high fives to get her treats. She's scratched me pretty good. Needless to say, I wouldn't teach my horse to flail his teeth and heavy head at my face to get a treat. Spanish walk, bow, smile.. Those would be okay. But hand shakes, pawing, kisses, and rearing I probably wouldn't.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I use CT to teach my horses everything they need to know but I would not teach anything like a spanish walk until the horse is on solid stimulus control (only providing skills when asked) a horse pawing the air all the time is just obnoxious and when not asked for can be dangerous. 
Personally I teach my horse first to stand quietly with their head forward. The first and most heavily reinforced skill you teach will be what your horse goes to when they dont know what to do. Then I teach them to touch a target with their nose. I always use an object on a stick at first, like a crop with a star at the end or something. Never have them target your hand or face or body until you know how they escalate a skill (biting or pawing or knocking around) and have taught them when and when not to do those things. For example my pony kicks a ball when its on the ground, without the ball pawing is ignored and useless to him. When an object has a handle he should pick it up and play fetch. If the ball is hanging on the wall he shouod bang it around. If he touches my hand he should touch gentle and never escalate. But until you have the timing to reinforce each skill for each situation its best not to ever set them up to make a mistake.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

danny67 said:


> oh! He would NEVER do that! He also bows for treats.


 I think this would be a good topic for a betting pool. Is that legal? We could each pick a date when Danny67 is going to get bit and who ever comes closest wins the jackpot. But we would have to trust that Danny would tell us.
My horse is a nibbler and communicates a lot with her lips and I trust her fully but I would never even think about letting her do this near my face.


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## danny67 (Nov 27, 2012)

LOL. 'ol Drift is in horsy heaven now. In my 14 years with him he was always a good boy and never bit. He was just a slobber king. Those kisses were fun except when he had been nosing in the poop pile.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

^^^^^ Sort of like when the dog has been in the cat box?????


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

I have a VERY protective mare, but I only allow that behavior in the pasture.she lives in a large herd where some of the horses can be very naughty. Outside of the pasture no sort of possessive or protective behavior is tolerated.

That being said, she also knows how to kiss 

She is only asked to kiss when I ask.if I did not ask, she gets scolded.she also does not get a treat every time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

danny67 said:


> LOL. 'ol Drift is in horsy heaven now. In my 14 years with him he was always a good boy and never bit. He was just a slobber king.



You got lucky. Your luck is likely to run out if you ever try that 'trick' with another horse.

Another 'horses are just BIG dogs' owner, I presume. :?


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## danny67 (Nov 27, 2012)

Speed Racer said:


> Another 'horses are just BIG dogs' owner, I presume. :?


Well he sure was! 

I don't presume about other horses tho. I think my Arab was an exception to the norm.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

danny67 said:


> Well he sure was!
> 
> I don't presume about other horses tho. I think my Arab was an exception to the norm.


Your guy sounds just like an Arab I had for a while, he's passed away now, but he was the biggest goober! He had a hereditary disease which left him pretty crippled since birth, not in pain, not not able to move correctly. But he just lived it up, he was always good for a big wet smooch, usually he'd hold his nose out and you could go smooch him, he didn't come into us. He loved his nose played with. 
This is him showing off his little attitude


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## Ima Free Spirit (Oct 2, 2013)

For those who said that trick training is bad/negative, I taught my horse to paw and so many people on here put me down but my horse after weeks of properly working up to it my horse can do a beautiful Spanish walk and she's never hurt me doing it, or does it without my command/instruction. If you want to do trick training you have to be experienced enough and teach it properly its what all the experienced people warn kids and people, but than once again instead of the person training getting the blame trick training gets the blame. 

Training something properly takes time to do properly, people forget to only train the horse for a short time at first or what the horse can handle.

And you have to be careful training with food, food is used only for when the horse is just learning to get a horse to properly do a trick or movement in the end food shouldnt be used the horse should just understand and be happy with a pat or release.

Trick training can be dangerous, if you cant do it properly .


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Tricks are great for many things. And also, the only thing that we teach a horse that is something he would learn without human interference is dominance and respect. Everything else we teach a horse is for our own pleasures, and if done incorrectly can lead to people getting hurt. When man first domesticated horses, putting a saddle on him would have been considered a trick.... So saying trick training is wrong is like saying riding a horse is wrong.


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## michaelvanessa (Apr 25, 2012)

*heres tricky.*








no fear of biteing at all.
his to well mannord.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

My DH getting his face washed by Jazzie - this is one of those 
'Don't try this at home folks'
things I know but she also wouldn't dream of biting. Flo does it as well and always greets our vet with a sloppy kiss!!


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I know that horses are unpredictable, they are animals. But I also am a firm believer that owners /know/ their horses. As I said earlier in this thread, I leased an Appendix who knew how to kiss: he would have never bitten me.

There is something to be said for the bond that certain horses and certain people share.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I think training a horse to do something which in the horse world is disrespectful(kicking, biting, rearing, striking, bucking, ear pinning, etc), and expecting the horse to stay respectful to you is unrealistic. Those types of tricks should only be taught to specific horses, by experienced trainers who know the risks and can read body language well.

Its like teaching your toddler to swear in a foreign language because you think it sounds funny in yours. eventually the kid will pick up on the fact that you encouraged them to swear, and start using other words you arn't so fond of.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Ima Free Spirit said:


> For those who said that trick training is bad/negative, I taught my horse to paw and so many people on here put me down.


Really? How could people here 'put you down' when you've _just_ joined the BB? 

Teaching a horse to paw is moronic. I consider it a_ horrible_ behavior and won't stand for it. Mine get reprimanded when they do it, not encouraged. Of course, I look toward the future and if I should ever have to sell/give away any of mine, I want to make sure they haven't learned any dangerous, stupid pet tricks that might backfire on a new owner.


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## Skunkworks (Oct 22, 2012)

BlueSpark said:


> I think training a horse to do something which in the horse world is disrespectful(kicking, biting, rearing, striking, bucking, ear pinning, etc), and expecting the horse to stay respectful to you is unrealistic. Those types of tricks should only be taught to specific horses, by experienced trainers who know the risks and can read body language well.
> 
> Its like teaching your toddler to swear in a foreign language because you think it sounds funny in yours. eventually the kid will pick up on the fact that you encouraged them to swear, and start using other words you arn't so fond of.


Not to mention a lot of people think it's cute to train them to do all that when they're young, but then they turn into 1200lb horses they have zero idea how to fix their mess.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Speed racer- a properly trained horse will ONLY do tricks on command. 

I trained my mare to paw. She only does it if I ask her too. There is no reason to assume that if you teach them to paw, they would do it all the time. She never paws without being asked.

The same with my other mare who can Spanish walk. She only does it when I ask. 

I also taught my dog to bark on command. It doesn't mean he is allowed to bark all the time!


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Speed racer, I agree with 4horses here. A few years ago I had a horse whom I taught to yawn, and paw on command. But I knew enough to only reward when I've asked for it, and how to correct when it's not asked for. Each time she pawed when not asked, I simply backed her up to correct/change her mind about doing it when not asked. She got tired of backing up, so therefore decided to quit pawing, and only did when I asked her to.


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