# This is Why You GELD Your Horses! Ugh



## spence (Nov 8, 2009)

I'll try not to be too long winded with this story, however I always seem long winded.

Ok, so wife decided to look for a project horse again. Found a little four year old, still a stud horse, that we didn't give much for. Went down to look at him and he was mannered well enough at home, I didn't think too much of it (little to no stud experience). Supposedly he was dumped at a friend of theirs' house a year ago, rail thin, and their vet would not geld him at the time.

So, not thinking of it too hard, we bring him home. Turn him out separate from our horses, three wire fence between all of them. And he promptly goes through the fence to get in with my three geldings. Was headed to get panels the next day so he spent the night and next morning tied to a tree. Put round pen together and turned him in it, where he could barely see our horses, if he was lucky.

We had him gelded the next day, and over the next couple of days he was kept in a box stall when wife wasn't working with him in the round pen, and our first clients for the summer brought down two mares and another young gelding. Our horse was kept independent of all the other horses because I refused to let him have contact with a client's horses not knowing what he would do (aka hurt them), at least until he had a chance to calm down after being gelded.

Until two days ago, same day the farrier came out. I went out that evening to check out the panel he bent that wife told me about. Sure enough, he'd managed to hit one of the panels hard enough to pop the top pin and hit it again and bent the hell out of it.

At least, that's what I believe. I was attempting to tie the panels back together and the clients gelding was just curious, several feet away (other side of fence). Suddenly *BAM* this moron hits the panel again trying to attack my clients horse over the panels. 

I was so hopeful for that little horse, however when all that happened, I went inside and talked with my wife and we decided that it was it was best the health and safety of 1) us, 2) our horses, and 3) our clients' horses that he be put down, and soon.

Given the opportunity, he may have come out ok, however we do not have the time or facility, especially if he's trying to destroy my panels, too. I'm not mad about the money we're out because of it, HOWEVER I'm still extremely irritated that he was left a stud at what the vet estimated 4 1/2 AND was NOT TAUGHT ANY MANNERS! Combined, the two were what sealed his fate. He had such bad ground manners to people and did not even know how to function around other horses. *sigh*


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

uhh? your going to put him down just because he poped out a few pannels. He sounds like he is just being a horse to me.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Why don't you try to send him to a rescue or a stud knowledgeable person first? Just a suggestion...


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## beauforever23 (May 6, 2010)

You'd rather put the poor horse down, than send him to a trainer?. He's a 4 year old and i'm sure with the proper training he'd be great. I wouldn't just put down the horse. IMO. 

He sounds like he's just being a horse to me. Either that or give him to a rescue.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I strongly disagree with this. You made the error in bringing a stud home, and now you are going to put him to sleep because of your error? That is fundamentally wrong to me. 

It takes a while for the hormones to settle, find other arrangements while this happens - do not put an animal to sleep because you messed up.

This is just horrible.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

OK I am really ****ed at this - put that horse to sleep over your own error, and I will be so annoyed. Make over decisions, figure something out. You are the worst of horse owners based on their own needs for getting yourself into this mess. 

I hope to god you are able to read this before the mods delete it!


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

I need to give a different view point. Who wants this horse? Really honestly? While I wouldn't give up on him this quickly, I can understand where spence is coming from. This probably makes me sound like a #1 Jerkface but...if he was honestly going to harm people or others horses and a turnabout couldn't be made without him harming himself or others...where do you turn? Do you lock him in a stall, making him more hostile? Do you turn him out and pray he doesn't bust through the fence and kill a clients horse? Do you risk your own life getting into the pen with him when he has already shown aggression? 

Again, I don't think you should be doing this so quickly. He could be responding this way because of many different reasons...pain from the gelding being one of them. If you couldn't get him turned around in a few weeks, moving him on or putting him down is your best decision.


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## sandy2u1 (May 7, 2008)

It kinda sounds like to me that the horse has already been put down



> Given the opportunity, he may have come out ok, however we do not have the time or facility, especially if he's trying to destroy my panels, too. I'm not mad about the money we're out because of it, HOWEVER I'm still extremely irritated that he was left a stud at what the vet estimated 4 1/2 AND was NOT TAUGHT ANY MANNERS! Combined, the two were what sealed his fate. He had such bad ground manners to people and did not even know how to function around other horses. *sigh*




​


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## beauforever23 (May 6, 2010)

amen Alex. i'm sorry, you shouldn't own a horse if you think putting him down is the only option. sorry that's my opinion. If you don't have the time or the facility than why would you bring in a horse that you knew needed work.


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

sandy2u1 said:


> It kinda sounds like to me that the horse has already been put down


 
I hope your wrong.

Honestly. Why get a project horse if can't handle him?? You knew he was a stallion. I'm sure you knew her was an adult. You knew he had no manners. Gelding isn't some quick fix magic buterflies out yo ***.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Cori, you knocked me sideways with your thoughts. Frankly if he could not cope with a colt he should not have bought a colt, it is that simple to me. Now that he did, he has no business having an oh flark moment - he either needs to strengthen in a paddock or sell his massive error. I don't understand why the colt needs to die for his error. 

Now that he has been gelded it will take a few months for his hormones to settle, it is not an overnight process. 

It is a monumental error in my mind, of the owners, and it need not result in the death of the horse who did nothing wrong.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

And while I totally agree with you ladies, what is the OP supposed to do now? Pass him on to a rescue? They are all full. Sell him on or give him away? To who? A young kid? A family with a million acres and 8' steel fences? The options are work with this newly gelded gelding or have him *HUMANELY* euthanized.


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## beauforever23 (May 6, 2010)

myhorsesonador said:


> I hope your wrong.
> 
> Honestly. Why get a project horse if can't handle him?? You knew he was a stallion. I'm sure you knew her was an adult. You knew he had no manners. Gelding isn't some quick fix magic buterflies out yo ***.


I hope Spence made the right decision if he did get rid of him, of giving him to a rescue or someone who can handle him, instead of putting him down.


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## sandy2u1 (May 7, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *sandy2u1*  
_It kinda sounds like to me that the horse has already been put down


_


I hope your wrong.

Honestly. Why get a project horse if can't handle him?? You knew he was a stallion. I'm sure you knew her was an adult. You knew he had no manners. Gelding isn't some quick fix magic buterflies out yo ***.
Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/saloon/why-you-geld-your-horses-ugh-85227/page2/#ixzz1Kt1AqU4P

I hope I am, too, but if you will notice he is referring to the horse in the past tense. 
​


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

corinowalk said:


> And while I totally agree with you ladies, what is the OP supposed to do now? Pass him on to a rescue? They are all full. Sell him on or give him away? To who? A young kid? A family with a million acres and 8' steel fences? The options are work with this newly gelded gelding or have him *HUMANELY* euthanized.


He could stop taking in client horses, which seems like he might be a trainer of some to no sort. 

What was he thinking? This is his bad choice not the horses. He needs to not take in clients til he has dealt with this massive error.


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

sandy2u1 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sandy2u1*
> _It kinda sounds like to me that the horse has already been put down_
> 
> ...


 
If I read correcly I think he switched tenses offten?


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

We posted at the same time Alex, sorry. 

I am just trying to convey the point that the market is chock full of horses with massive issues. The wife should have NEVER taken on a stud in the first place if they didn't already have arrangements made for keeping a stud. 100% for sure on that. Now that the deal is done, what is there really to do? You can't really hope to sell something that is that horse aggressive?


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

corinowalk said:


> We posted at the same time Alex, sorry.
> 
> I am just trying to convey the point that the market is chock full of horses with massive issues. The wife should have NEVER taken on a stud in the first place if they didn't already have arrangements made for keeping a stud. 100% for sure on that. Now that the deal is done, what is there really to do? You can't really hope to sell something that is that horse aggressive?


They DIDN'T have the facilities. The post clearly says that he went right though there flimsy tape.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

No need to be sorry Cori, you are not the person making me want to throw up. 

Spence or his wife (either way Spence) flarked up royally and instead of fixing the problem, they want to euth the horse. 

I don't care about any kind of niceness policy this board might have, I want to flip crap about this. How is this the horses error? And how does he have clients of any kind?

I have never handled a stallion, in all my life of horse ownership because I am not a flarking moron.


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## beauforever23 (May 6, 2010)

I have handled my friends' stallion but, never in my life would I own a stallion because, i'm also not dumb. On the side bar. 

Spence obviously knew he didn't have the correct facilities for a stallion, why get one? I'm with Alex on this sorry but, this horse doesn't deserve to be put down because of an error Spence clearly made.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

This for sure isn't horsemanship at its finest. I don't mean to sound like I am agreeing with the way things are going down. I don't. I have just personally been in his shoes (not exactly but chose to have a horse euthed for the greater good) and it wasn't a fun place to be.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

For the record, 3 strands of hot wire is hardly 'flimsy tape'. Just saying. Not agreeing. Just for the record. 

Spence, if this horse is around, I am sure you could find someone on this board that would take him in for the price of a vet visit. You would come out even.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Cori, I think you are more responsible than Spence is showing himself to be. He brought home a cheap 4 yr old without understanding what that meant - and now the horse will be PTS for his error, when he could just refuse 'clients'. 

Dumb dumb dumb


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

corinowalk said:


> For the record, 3 strands of hot wire is hardly 'flimsy tape'. Just saying. Not agreeing. Just for the record.
> 
> 
> > I know I'm just saying it didn't slow him down in the least. He plowed through it like a wildabeast after a watermellon.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

He sure did. And he could probably make a decent turn around. The trouble with project horses is that they take honest to goodness, day and night work. If spence wasn't in for that kind of work, he shouldn't have taken on *any* horse...let alone a stud. 

I would love to know the time frame on this. How long after being gelded was he still charging the fence? A rational person would have called the vet back.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

A rational person would not have taken on a stud that they could not handle. 


I am livid about this Spence, how dare you mess up this badly and then put the horse to sleep?


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Spence why did you post this and then disappear as we would all respond? You logged off about as soon as you made your first post.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

corinowalk said:


> I need to give a different view point. Who wants this horse? Really honestly? While I wouldn't give up on him this quickly, I can understand where spence is coming from. This probably makes me sound like a #1 Jerkface but...if he was honestly going to harm people or others horses and a turnabout couldn't be made without him harming himself or others...where do you turn? Do you lock him in a stall, making him more hostile? Do you turn him out and pray he doesn't bust through the fence and kill a clients horse? Do you risk your own life getting into the pen with him when he has already shown aggression?
> 
> Again, I don't think you should be doing this so quickly. He could be responding this way because of many different reasons...pain from the gelding being one of them. If you couldn't get him turned around in a few weeks, moving him on or putting him down is your best decision.


Flame suit on.
I agree with Cori.

Why does everyone think euthanasia is so horrible?

There are plenty of not aggressive horses out there that need homes, why exactly is it so bad to put down on aggressive horse?

I do not disagree that maybe Spence and his wife might have bought a horse that was over their heads. This does not make them bad people. It makes them people that made a mistake. Something pretty much all of us have done at least once in our lives when it comes to buying a horse.

I would guess that if any of you said you would take this horse, Spence would be willing to give it away (with a signed contract that the person taking the horse knows of its issues and will not hold Spence liable for any damage the horse causes).

Maybe in a year this might be the most perfect horse there is. Who knows. But I can not imagine expecting him to tell his clients not to come for the next year in hopes this horse turns around.


ETA - How happy do you (general you) think a horse with that much aggression is?


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm in the middle on this. But am really wondering where the hell the OP went! Here we are agreeing/disagreeing and no one really knows what has actually happened to the horse. Kind of disappointing when a thread is started and everyone puts their two cents in and the OP disappears.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Why does everyone think euthanasia is so horrible?


I am not against euthing a horse when it is called for, but this whole thing really burns me up.

The horse is 4, untrained, and was still a stud. Okay. Any *logical* person would have realized that he was not going to be an easy horse, and certainly not an easy horse to buy, flip and sell. He's not a project house that can have a coat of paint slapped on. This is not the Black Stallion, and he was not going to get neutered and go "oh, I'll be calm and docile now, even though I STILL have no training or socialization skills". 

ANY young horse that has never been socialized will act this way, doesn't even have to be a stud. I don't think he did anything all that unusual. It does not sound over the top aggressive to me at all - it sounds NORMAL for an unhandled, unsocialized youngster full of hormones. A bent panel? You are talking about a thousand pound animal with no training! What did you expect, really? I have seen fully trained and well behaved geldings get in a snit an bend a panel before. And as my geldings will tell you, even high tensile wire can be popped fairly easily if a horse hits it with any strength. That's the reason for electricity on it, it just isn't that strong. If the horse had no electric fence training, I'm not surprised he went right through it.

The horse is still young, and very trainable. If everyone who had Patch before we got him had thought his way, my beloved boy would've been euthed 4 or 5 times over, just because the person that bought him didn't know what they were doing. 

The simple solution is to ask the vet, farrier, feed store if they know of any local trainers with stallion and young horse experience and GIVE HIM AWAY to someone who will actually take a little time and give him a chance..


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

The problem with giving away a horse that you know is dangerous is there are liability issues associated with it.

Had it been me I probably would have found a trainer and attempted to work through the issues first.

I just do not see euthanizing a dangerous animal as a bad thing. So what if it is young.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

The simple fact that no one has ever actively tried to train the horse. How do they know he is not fixable? They got him unhandled, put what sounds like a couple weeks of halfhearted work on him. I don't see him as dangerous. He has never gone after people, He was just acting like a horse. THAT is why I don't think euthing him is fair. Nobody has ever given him an opportunity to learn. And that is why I suggested giving him to a skilled trainer, and of course you would have to tell them you bought him, cannot handle him, that he could potentially hurt someone. I think that , especially if it were mentioned in a sales contract or change of ownership type thing, that he would not be liable, as it is known information, not something undisclosed.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I do not know he is not fixable. Do we ever know if one is truly unfixable? 

The long and short of it is, it is not my horse to determine this on. It is not my situation that is at risk. 

There is nothing wrong or cruel or horrible about euthanasia (coming from someone who has participated in 100s of them at a shelter).


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## ptvintage (Feb 12, 2010)

Why did you search for a project, buy a project, and then get upset when the horse ends up being a project? Why would you buy a stallion when you don't have the facilities for it, and why would you buy a stallion and expect him not to act like a stallion?

It can take months for a horse to act more like a gelding and less like a stallion, and until that happens, treat the **** horse like a stallion. And unless you know the stallion is completely trained and respectful of it, 3 strand wire fence is NOT stallion fencing. 

Frankly, it sounds like he was fine until you put another horse in the pen right next to him...

Sad that the horse has the pay the price for your own ignorance.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Good post, Ptvintage.

It is sad that the animals have to pay for our (general us) stupidity.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

AB, the OP did not say anything to make me think that the horse is dangerous. It's a young stud and it tried to go for other horses, this is quite normal for an untrained newly gelded horse.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

I have to agree with most of you. He never really had the chance to prove what he could have been. But I really think, since the OP has not responded, that this is a done deal. Which for all of us is unfortunate and sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

Unfortunately you are probably right, mbender. I'm wondering why the OP posted at all. He had to know how the thread was going to go, and since he bolted and disappeared after the first post, what was the point? 

It's a shame that someone who is supposed to be a trainer for other people's horses could not realize that a horse will be a horse and nothing more, until it is taught how to behave differently, simple as that. I am 100% certain that I would not want someone training my horse that could make an amateurish mistake this monumental, and resolve it in this way...


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

Alexs he said the horse was attacking the panels WHILE he was standing there trying to tie it, he could have easily got caught up in the middle there, and i believe Euthanasia is better then what he could be getting if they sold him, they could sell him and he get sold to some backwoods person who just shoots him instead of putting him to sleep. they got him as it says because yes he was a stud but he was CALM before, if this horse is acting this way then i agree maybe it should be put down, there are plenty of projects in the world that arn't this dangerous, stud or not.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_First, I agree with Cori and Always. Yes, it didn't turn out to be a great situation, but it is still better then others that could happen....like getting severly injuered because the horse is kicking at a fence while you are in the pen with him._

_Second...the thread was only posted last night at 10:21...so why are you guys all up in arms that he hasn't reposted? Not everyone gets on HF first thing in the morning. It could be very possible that Spence is working, and will respond again tonight. _

_Third....not all studs need to be put in panelled lots, and can run in regular wire fencing, so yes, it could have been assumed that this horse would be the same. When it was found out that the horse would not stay inside the normal wire fence, new fencing was put up for him. _

_Fourth....just because someone is a trainer, does not mean that they have experience with aggressive horses, or studs. Just because someone doesn't have that experience doesn't all of a sudden make them a bad trainer. Have any of you had Spence train a horse for you? Or met him? How do you know what kind of trainer he is?_


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## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

I am going with Cori and AB on this one.
It is a very unfortunate circumstance, and while there are things that Spence should have done differently, hindsight is 20/20, and I don't think he should be condemned.
Sometimes people gotta learn by doing.
And while it was the horse who paid the ultimate price, I believe Spence felt he was in over his head, and did what he felt he had to do for the safety of the other horses. 
In the very least, he can now advocate to others the necessity of not just wanting to do something, but being fully prepared financially/property/knowledge wise before embarking on such an endeavor.


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## EternalSun (Mar 29, 2009)

In this god awful economy, how many people are going to be lining up to buy or even take for free a young, difficult to handle, recently gelded horse who needs a ton of work? Don't kid yourself about a rescue taking him either, they are full! And for every horse like the OP's, there are 10 nice, trainable ones going to auction that no one has a home for. Yes, it's unfortunate that he (horse) wound up in the situation he was in with the OP not realizing how much work he could turn into, but that's not the point now. The point is you have an aggressive and potentially very dangerous horse and the kindest thing would be to euthanize him. Sorry folks, but sometime's that is life. His chances of going to a forever home where they'll work with him diligently and have the experience, want, and time to fix his problems are one in a million. And in the off chance that a rescue could take him, that means you're taking the spot away from another horse who needs it, one who would probably be far easier to handle and train and therefore easier to place in a home. How is that fair?


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

Yes, but the horse has never BEEN trained, and has not done anything that any untrained 4 year old might do. So does that mean we should euth every 4 year old horse that has never been trained? Well, I suppose that would take care of a heck of a lot of horses then. The horse did nothing out of line for a horse that has never been worked with. He did not attack a person, he charged a fence with a strange horse on the other side of it. Again, normal behavior for an untrained, recently gelded stallion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Apachie, I think you are going a little extreme here.

No, it does not mean there needs to be a societal mass euthanasia of all untrained horses.

This is not your horse.

Kind of like the whole slaughter debate. Not my horse, not my decision.

There is nothing horrible about euthanasia, the owner of the horse feels it is dangerous. They are totally within their rights to euthanize instead of pawning the problem off on someone else, if they can even find someone else.


I would rather people who have a horse that is too much for them euthanize it instead of insisting they keep it and them or it get hurt.

I think there are better answers in this situation. But that does not make euthanasia wrong.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

I am not against euthing a dangerous horse. I do not believe this one is dangerous, I believe he is normal and just has not been taught anything. In my mind, that is a big difference.


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## spence (Nov 8, 2009)

FINALLY somebody realized that it was last night when I posted last night, I had to go to bed and then work today. Not like I flaked, for Pete's sake.

No, we don't have any stud experience, HOWEVER this horse was with several other horses and there were horses across the road from him. He was fine. Guess what kind of fencing they had? A single strand of hot wire.

No, he did not have enough time to adapt well to our location. I would loved to have given him to someone who knows more than me, however both of us did not feel it was exactly safe for him to be here any longer than necessary. And I know enough to know finding somebody who's willing and capable of taking that sort of horse on in short order probably isn't going to happen.

If we had suspected ANY of this were going to transpire, we would have passed for another horse. No, we're not pro trainers, and I am not a hot shot colt starter. We finish several green horses a year, or get those who've been neglected for a long period of time back up to snuff. 

So yes, we made a mistake. Whoops, my bad. If it had been a more sellable horse, it would have ended differently, however that was what we felt to be the best option at the time. Hind site it 20/20, and I see now what we probably should have seen in the first place.


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## NicoleS11 (Nov 21, 2008)

This horse would have been very hard to re-sell. In my opinion you did the best thing in your situation. 

I love how every one is saying to “give” the horse away to a more suited trainer. No trainer in their right mind would take a free/dangerous horse just to spend countless work hours(hours that they are not getting paid for) on and have no guarantee that the horse is going to turn out and turn down paying customers and their horses. 

If you were lucky enough to find a rescue that had the room to take him he could have easily gotten into trouble there. Correct me if im wrong but rescues are usually funded by the people that decided to start it or if they are lucky they will get some donations. Every rescue in my area have TERRIBLE fencing because they cant afford to put up a good, solid, SAFE fence! If the horse was dangerous in a 3 strand hot wire fence then how do you expect him to respect an even crappier fence that is on a most likely very over populated rescue. 

Spece, did you feel like you were in danger when the horse came at the fence when you were trying to repair it?


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

*Guys, since we want that threads benefit so many users as possible, we don't encourage people to post horse-related threads in the Saloon in which only limited part of members can participate them, unless the thread includes material that is explicitly inappropriate for our younger members.

That's why this thread has been moved to "Horse Talk" subforum under General horse related threads category with 5 days redirection from the Saloon.*


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## Whisper22 (Jan 2, 2011)

I'm not against euthing a dangerous horse, but I also don't think this horse can be considered dangerous. I went back and read the original post again just to make sure. It doesn't sound like he can't be worked with as it seems your wife has been doing that. I don't understand why you can't sell him or give him away as a recently gelded horse, because I agree that trying to give him away as a dangerous horse probably won't work, but I don't think that's necessary.
I think there ARE people who would take a stallion that have the right set up for one. In the right set up he most likely wouldn't be considered dangerous. This horse has barely begun it's life, that's just sad.


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## raywonk (Jan 9, 2011)

Have you ever had a horse slam its intire body into a wall or panel that you are standing near. It is scary. Now untrained or not most horses do not charge the part of the fence that a human is at even when they are going after a nother horse. Fence puls person looks more solid than fence alone. 
I just wanted to point that out.


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## Whisper22 (Jan 2, 2011)

I wasn't getting that he charged the panel, just that he was kicking it. I could be wrong but the post just said he hit it. I've seen front hooves bend the bars on a round pen panel.
How do you know this horse wanted to get to the other horses to attack them. Could it be that he was just frustrated?

I just noticed that you didn't say what he did whe he got in with the other geldings. Doesn't sound much like he tried to attack them.


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

He could have just wanted to see the horse, and was frustrated that he couldn't because of the pen panels? Also, the horse was gelded. I know it takes a while for it to all settle down after gelding but seriously, give the horse a chance. You wanted a project horse, you got a project horse. Your own foolishness and the horse had to pay the price. I am not against euthanizing but seriously, you could have at least given him a chance and see how he worked out him. No trainer is going to take on a gelding that is "crazy" unless he has potential to be a good horse. He sounds like he was just confused, angry and inexperienced. He could have been a good horse under the right owner and trainer.

I agree that it would have been hard to sell him if you said he was "dangerous" but there may have even been a trainer looking for a project horse that actually wanted to work with him. 

Don't get a project horse if you are going to throw him away without giving him a decent chance,


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## Cinder (Feb 20, 2011)

> FINALLY somebody realized that it was last night when I posted last night, I had to go to bed and then work today. Not like I flaked, for Pete's sake.
> 
> No, we don't have any stud experience, HOWEVER this horse was with several other horses and there were horses across the road from him. He was fine. Guess what kind of fencing they had? A single strand of hot wire.


Then WHY would you buy a stud? And he may have been fine with his herd that he was used to. Moving to a different situation takes time to adapt to. You kept him away from the horses (understandable), but perhaps he's herd sour? Horses are group animals and some can get anxious and wild away from the group. 



> No, he did not have enough time to adapt well to our location. I would loved to have given him to someone who knows more than me, however both of us did not feel it was exactly safe for him to be here any longer than necessary. And I know enough to know finding somebody who's willing and capable of taking that sort of horse on in short order probably isn't going to happen.


Read my above comment about adapting.



> If we had suspected ANY of this were going to transpire, we would have passed for another horse. No, we're not pro trainers, and I am not a hot shot colt starter. We finish several green horses a year, or get those who've been neglected for a long period of time back up to snuff.


I will comment on the beginning of this paragraph later.



> So yes, we made a mistake. Whoops, my bad. If it had been a more sellable horse, it would have ended differently, however that was what we felt to be the best option at the time. Hind site it 20/20, and I see now what we probably should have seen in the first place.


First: You're a trainer, correct? I've been riding for a little over five years. Still a beginner in most people's eyes. _Even I know that studs need expierenced handling. _Assuming a young, PROJECT stud will behave well at all is a mistake. 

Second: You did not give this horse enough time. Even well-behaved horses have a period where they have to get used to new places and new situations. Horses are PREY animals, thus as how a corner they've been passing for the past five years can freak them out, a new situation can TOTALLY mess them up. As a trainer, you should've realized this, understood, and taken it into account. 

I do not have a problem with humanely euthing a horse. However, considering the circumstances- especially that you are a TRAINER, and should know better- I'm going to say that it is really unfortunate this horse had to die for your mistake. 

If you were a newbie, or naiive, or didn't know any better, I might be a bit more understanding (but don't get me started on people who don't know anything about horses and buy them thinking they're like huge dogs), but YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER. 

Very simply, I hope your clients do not catch wind of this. 

Again, I don't have one single problem with euthing a horse when it's in everyone's best interests- but this horse had a chance to live, to lead a good life. In the end, it was taken away. For a mistake that really SHOULDN'T have been.

Spence, the best thing to do is to learn from this.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

So you bought an unhandled young stud when you had no stud experience, did not give him time to adapt, and then had him euthed rather than even TRY to find someone more suitable to take him. I am just speechless. 

What a poor unfortunate end for a horse that was just beginning his life...



> If it had been a more sellable horse, it would have ended differently,


Meaning what, that if he had been worth more money you would have given him more time, or that you would have actually tried to find someone else to take him?


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## xtwilightx (Apr 15, 2011)

I personally think a horse is a reflection of you .. whatever you put into it you get out of it and having a troubled untrained horse put down isnt the answer for your mistakes I think when you make a mistake you should take responsibility for it not take the easy way out just because its convenient for you did you take this horse into consideration before you decided to put it down or did you ever think why is this horse acting the way it is did u exhaust all options or did you just take the easy way out because it seems to you horses are disposable and have no feelings of their own .. I'm not against having a horse put down that is suffering but having one put down that has problems by no fault of its own is pathetic this horse was untrained young and a stallion when you got him you knew that so what did you think you were going to get do more research and be a responsible horse owner dont jump into things that you arent prepared for because innocent animals dont deserve to die because they are acting like animals and because you jump into things without knowing what you are doing


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Just read through this and wow. First, I am not against euthing when necessary. I have worked with stallions my entire life and have re-trained several rank ones. Hitting a panel is no excuse to put one down. My youngest I got at 3 an unhandled rank mess. He had never been out of his stall. He kicked, bit, came at me with both front feet, had to be tranq'd for the farrier, etc etc etc...1 year later he can be ground tied in between 2 mares in heat, is under saddle and is pastured WITH the herd. It took work and determination& taking the time to show him right from wrong. Seek help, re-home him, give him a chance, it CAN be done and yes there are those out there that are capable. 

If you weren't prepared for dealing with a stud, you shouldn't have bought him. Unfortunately for him, his life ended at a very early age because of a poor decision. Sad.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

EternalSun said:


> In this god awful economy, how many people are going to be lining up to buy or even take for free a young, difficult to handle, recently gelded horse who needs a ton of work? Don't kid yourself about a rescue taking him either, they are full! And for every horse like the OP's, there are 10 nice, trainable ones going to auction that no one has a home for. Yes, it's unfortunate that he (horse) wound up in the situation he was in with the OP not realizing how much work he could turn into, but that's not the point now. The point is you have an aggressive and potentially very dangerous horse and the kindest thing would be to euthanize him. Sorry folks, but sometime's that is life. His chances of going to a forever home where they'll work with him diligently and have the experience, want, and time to fix his problems are one in a million. And in the off chance that a rescue could take him, that means you're taking the spot away from another horse who needs it, one who would probably be far easier to handle and train and therefore easier to place in a home. How is that fair?


I very much agree with this and AB's statements. 

The OP did a huge mistake - no question on that. I feel VERY sorry for the horse. But would euthanasia be a worse choice than getting on meat truck or just starve to death? 

I truly hope the OP (and may be other people reading this thread who thought about doing something similar) learned a big life lesson from this situation and won't fall in it again. With that being said I also want to add that there is no need to beat a dead horse over and over again. What should be said was already said by several people.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I think Spence made a poor decision putting the horse down but it doesn't bother me too much. There are plenty of good horses out there right now so nobody HAS to deal with a "bad" one. I think he probably got poor advice from the vet and maybe doesn't know horses quite as well as he thinks. I was keeping a very nice horse a stallion until I realized that it was hard for him to settle a mare and there were **** few mares to be settled for enough money to be worth it. He was fine with geldings only but even a month after I had him gelded he would attack a gelding if a mare was around. It took about three months before he got all the hormones out of his system. If they had given him a lot of work and kept other horses away from him he would have calmed down but if he couldn't give the horse that then he did the right thing.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I would just love to show this thread to all who believe that some of us are all of a hive mind and never disagree about anything.

Anyway, I am with mbender, sort of on the fence with this one. While Spence did make a mistake in taking the horse in the first place, what's done is done. Myself, I probably would not have given up on him so quickly, but I do have at least _some_ experience with 'dangerous' horses. Along that same train of thought, I will encourage the euthing of many dangerous horses simply to keep them from going out into the buyer's pool to be picked up by someone who will be in over their head.

However, I also agree that given time, this horse likely could have been completely turned around with proper handling and the proper trainer. It is exceptionally rare to find a horse that is truly so bad tempered that there is no hope.

BUT, what's done is done and Spence has learned a valuable lesson from this experience.


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## Citrus (Feb 26, 2010)

You need three things to retrain a problem horse.... time, experience, and the ability to practice first on a non-problem horse.... Spence did not have time or experience..... as for the choice he made, it sucks and I will do my hardest not to put myself in a position to ever have to make a similar choice.


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## spence (Nov 8, 2009)

smrobs said:


> I would just love to show this thread to all who believe that some of us are all of a hive mind and never disagree about anything.
> 
> Anyway, I am with mbender, sort of on the fence with this one. While Spence did make a mistake in taking the horse in the first place, what's done is done. Myself, I probably would not have given up on him so quickly, but I do have at least _some_ experience with 'dangerous' horses. Along that same train of thought, I will encourage the euthing of many dangerous horses simply to keep them from going out into the buyer's pool to be picked up by someone who will be in over their head.
> 
> ...


This is a comment I do appreciate in a lot of ways. We did learn a big lesson out of this deal, and frankly, I'm much happier to stick with what I know, and so is my wife. A big part of the reason why we made the choice we did is 1) we did not want to put other people's horses at unnecessary risk, or our own, and 2) even if we could have found someone to take him, the last thing we wanted was it to be someone even less prepared. I don't know a lot of people that have the know how or desire to take on a project of the nature we tried to. Yes, he paid for it, and I do believe that given time he may have come out ok, but I had to make a choice and, right or wrong, it's done.


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## vikki92 (Dec 18, 2010)

I personally whould have gave the poor gelding a little more time & a chance. 
I have trianed 2 stallions, one was a mustang got him when he was 3yrs old, he was giving to me becasue the guy before could not do anything with him.
So I took him & yes it took time, got kicked in the leg & bit on the shoulder but I didnt give up on him. (Oh and it took him atleast 3 months to get over his man hood taken away) any ways after some training and loveing & feeding he is one heck of a cattle horse (cutting, roping ect.) and is a very sweet boy!


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

Wow. This kind of ****es me off.

Too bad that it took a horse's death for you to learn your lesson. Irresponsibility at its finest, I say.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

I just wanted to say that I have had geldings try to attack other geldings hard enough to bend a panel, and yes, at times w/ me right there. These are well trained geldings that had a hormonal moment (thinking about their lost man hood I guess), generally two horses that didn't know each other very well. Of course they were corrected right away, and it is a rarish (maybe not rare, but not common) thing that happens once in awhile, as annoying as it is. 

Sounds like this guy just needed some time and he'd have been fine. Horses can change alot when taken away from what they are use to, but based on all that was said I would not consider this horse horse aggressive, just acting like a stallion (mentally they are still stallions til the hormones leave, and he hadn't had time for that to happen). W/ time and work he'd have gotten use to his new home and family and probably would have been a fine gelding. I actually know a gelding right now that's done waaay worse to panels! Thankfully he is w/ a trainer working him through his issues.

The OP did make a huge mistake, and I"m sure he knows that. I'm sure Euth would have been the last think I'd have gone to, but w/ the current economy he would be very hard to place as is, I think I'd have sent him off to a more experienced trainer, preferable after the hormones had cleared out, but sooner if that was all that was possible. I know a real good one that would have been able to work wonders w/ him. But what's done is done, and it was a learning experince if nothing else. A good horse is hard to sell right now, a horse w/ issues is next to impossible.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

smrobs said:


> I would just love to show this thread to all who believe that some of us are all of a hive mind and never disagree about anything.
> 
> Anyway, I am with mbender, sort of on the fence with this one. While Spence did make a mistake in taking the horse in the first place, what's done is done. Myself, I probably would not have given up on him so quickly, but I do have at least _some_ experience with 'dangerous' horses. Along that same train of thought, I will encourage the euthing of many dangerous horses simply to keep them from going out into the buyer's pool to be picked up by someone who will be in over their head.
> 
> ...


Exactly. I can only sit and picture the situation. How scared the OP was for the safety of all. But the same goes for calling himself a "trainer", taking on a "project" horse that they should have known the time it would take for any horse to adjust. Especially a stud (unhandled) at that. Like its been said,, what's done is done! A HUGE lesson learned for all wanting a "project"!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## horsesroqke (Nov 5, 2009)

> So you bought an unhandled young stud when you had no stud experience, did not give him time to adapt, and then had him euthed rather than even TRY to find someone more suitable to take him. I am just speechless.
> 
> What a poor unfortunate end for a horse that was just beginning his life...


This, this, this. 

Urgh. Some people make my blood boil.





​


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

I have a gut feeling it is going to be blocked as everything that can be said has been said over and over again,\.


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## horsesroqke (Nov 5, 2009)

While i laughed at the picture, I definitely don't find this thread funny.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

PintoTess said:


> I have a gut feeling it is going to be blocked as everything that can be said has been said over and over again,\.


It will be. But it is good advice to unsuspecting people wanting a "project". You know? I don't really find the humor in any of this. Sorry. Its very unfortunate!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

No neither do I.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

Spence, i just want to say that i've been in your position before taking a chance never taken before, some people learn differently and have to DO to learn. i'm one of those people, my parents bought me a horse before i'd ever ridden, and they boguht me an unbroke mustang, but i broke her myself and all went and is well, she's the most dependable horse we have and the best for the kids to ride.

i admire you for going out on a limb and trying to learn something new, but i also wish you could have been wiser about it, i know i wasn't that wise with my choice of getting a horse i just got lucky and mine turned out well. i wish you alot of luck though!


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

I am suprised you would find a vet that would even put the horse down for thye reasons you stated. I would hope they were more ethical and help you find someone to take the horse


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

Guys....just because someone is a trainer doesn't mean they know EVERYTHING. It takes time and mistakes to learn how to be a good trainer. Even experts probably made and STILL make mistakes. No one is perfect, so why do you expect someone else to be perfect?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

VelvetsAB said:


> Guys....just because someone is a trainer doesn't mean they know EVERYTHING. It takes time and mistakes to learn how to be a good trainer. Even experts probably made and STILL make mistakes. No one is perfect, so why do you expect someone else to be perfect?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
For me, it's not that I expect anyone to be perfect, but geez. Even some of the most beginner of horse people can figure out not to buy a project horse with the intentions that it will suddenly be perfect and never do wrong. That's why it's a PROJECT! Common sense says that a project horse that was recently gelded is not going to be some perfect little saint. Seems to me like the OP is the one that held the poor horse to an expectation. This is part of the problem with the horse world today. REALLY makes me upset.


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## BarrelRacer86 (Jul 6, 2010)

Wow is all I can say. Sad way for someone to learn a mistake, I hope in the future you don't bite off more than you can chew so to speak. And no more horses have to die from your foolish decisions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

Tennessee said:


> Seems to me like the OP is the one that held the poor horse to an expectation. This is part of the problem with the horse world today. REALLY makes me upset.


Yep, one screw up by the untrained horse, and "let's have him put down. He's so very dangerous." I too am surprised a vet went along with this, unless the story was blown up into "psycho crazy horse tried to kill us all"


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## Heatherloveslottie (Apr 12, 2010)

spence said:


> So yes, we made a mistake. Whoops, my bad.


To be honest, your post and reasons could be respected had you not been so demeaning and sarcastic about making a mistake that resulted in a horse being put down. 

Quite apart from the euthanasia debate, do you have any respect or reverence for that horse?


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## Cinder (Feb 20, 2011)

> Guys....just because someone is a trainer doesn't mean they know EVERYTHING. It takes time and mistakes to learn how to be a good trainer. Even experts probably made and STILL make mistakes. No one is perfect, so why do you expect someone else to be perfect?


I don't! But come ON. He calls himself a trainer. It DOES NOT take a "trainer" to know better then to take a stud with no stud expierence! Not to be rude but it isn't really rocket science. 

Spence, I can respect your decision. You didn't want anyone to get hurt. But try to UNDERSTAND what many of these posters are saying and why they're upset, at least.


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## HopalongCassidy (Dec 19, 2010)

Well this really upset me. God did this up set me. Why in the hell did you post this crap if you we're going to put him down anyway! This is very stupid. I feel like cussing you out but i won't. All i can really say is you make me sick. 

God this disgust me. YOU disgust me. 

You don't give him a chance. What if someone gelded you and you act like that. Trying to attack people. Do you think you wife would put you down or do you think she would get help for you. 

You know what i would of done. I would of made him now he did wrong. When he smacked into the panel i would of grabbed a lead rope and lunged him for at least 30 minutes none stop. Let him go and if he did it again i would do it all over and so on. That even if he went after you. I'd show him he did wrong and showed him whose boss. 

We have a paint who use to try to kick you when you petted him. (I don't blame him he was beaten.) So my step dad like OK thats how you wan to play. Well he got on his for wheeler and chased him around until he gave up. It only took that one time and he stopped doing that. He got taught that was not exceptionable. Yes that sounds cruel (Well really it doesn't. We didn't run him over or anything) But know i can walk right up to him and he just stands there. when my horse tries walking off when i mount i lunge him. If he tries again i do it again. I do it until he stands still for me to get on. 

This disgusts me. UCK!


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Originally Posted by *spence*  
_
So yes, we made a mistake. Whoops, my bad._

_I am amazed you sound so callous about euthanizing this horse. Reminds me more of someone who just ran a stoplight and got a ticket" oops my bad" hahahah _
_ In case you have forgotten, this was a horse you just put to death.I am not against euthanizing an animal, any animal that is dangerous, but was this horse actually dangerous, or just did not fit into your plans immediately?_
_ I work for two vets and while we do euthanize animals for aggression, illness and other reasons, without a good story to back up the dangerous animal story, I don't know if my vets would have euthanized this horse just because he was being a horse. The vet who gelded him should have explained that it can take months before a recent stud will start acting somewhat normal.And a qualified trainer would have known this also. We have horses come into the vets all the time that try to leap over the stocks, kick when being treated, try to bite, and totally act stupid and "dangerous" but just assume it is a spoiled horse with bad manners and an owner who doesn't really care. _
_Sounds as if you are not quite the trainer you think you are.I assume folks are paying you to finish their green horses and do whatever else you consider training. I think you bought this horse cheap, or in reality was given this horse for free, figured you could train and resell for big money in a small time span and when plans didn't go your way, you deemed the horse dangerous and had it euthanized.
 Yes, the economy is bad and it might have been hard to place this horse, but even so, did you even give the time to try to find a home, or just needed it gone today to "protect" your and your clients horses after you realized you made a huge mistake and didn't want to put any more money into this non money making horse. By the way, did a vet actually euthanize it, or to save even more money and have it happen quickly, did you actually shoot the horse yourself? Yes a well placed bullet is fast and quick, no doubt, but I wonder if you even had a vet out. Can't spend any more money on a horse than won't return a dollar now can we?
_


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Wow. Just finished reading through all the posts. Not much I could add that hasn't been said. Just because the OP decided to euthanize HIS horse for what ever reasons, it was his choice, not that I agree with it. Granted he didn't have addequate facilities or experience for the horse and the horse was calm when purchased. There is also the safety factor of not only him, his wife and the other horses, but if the horse is breaking through fences, the horse could end up out on a road where someone hits him and gets injured or killed. Spence would still be liable for that.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

The OP admitted that he made a mistake, but he can't change that now. I don't think it makes him a monster. It sounds like he thought the decision through and it probably seemed like the best solution to him at the time. 
My grey came to me at as a project horse. The 1st 6 month's I had her really tested my patience and ego. I seriously thought I had gotten in over my head. It's been a long road (going on 2 yrs), but we are getting there. She was already greenbroke when I got her, so she wasn't unhandled like the OP's horse & she was a mare. I also only have the 2 horses of my own. So I had time to do the work and wanted the challenge. 
My point is that very few people are going to put the time needed (or even have the time) into this horse, and even fewer people are going to want to do the work needed. I don't think euthanasia was the worst option. Like it was said before the horse could have ended up starving to death (which he was under weight when the OP got him) or could have seriously hurt someone.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

And how else is someone to get experience, if not by doing? Spence just happened to pick the wrong horse, which could happen to anyone. 

Yes, the outcome was not the greatest, but its still better then pawning the horse off on someone who really doesn't have experience. 

And once again....just because some makes a mistake as a trainer doesn't mean they have to automatically be told that they are horrible and shouldn't be a trainer or be called a "trainer". As horse people, we ALL know that there even if we read all the books out there, something could still come up that we are unprepared for. Spence has never said he was an expert, so it is definitely possible he got more then what he was expecting. It happens. Belittling a person isn't going to change what happened, or how it turned out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

VelvetsAB said:


> And how else is someone to get experience, if not by doing? Spence just happened to pick the wrong horse, which could happen to anyone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Right. So, he gets this horse thinking that it's going to be smooth sailing, and instead of putting forth ANY effort to help the horse he is quite lazy and just puts the horse to sleep. I'm sorry, but that horse's life is WAY more important than him gaining "experience". All I can say is, I hope my horses never end up in the hands of someone like him, whether that be by ownership or merely training.


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## HopalongCassidy (Dec 19, 2010)

It'a a pretty **** big mistake. With a heartbreaking ending. That horse probably could have gone to a home where it could have been a fine horse. 

But there are two sides to this. And i see both but i'm still very disgusted for the little time he gave that poor horse.

I agree Tenn. Is it easier just to put a horse down then trying to do anything with it? Well i hope you can live with your self after not even giving him a try. I would at least broke a leg trying to train him then do nothing but killing him.


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## Romantic Lyric (Dec 31, 2009)

"Okay Horse. I'm going to allow you break one of my legs in this training process. Just the one. You can't break any of my other bones, paralyze me for life or kill me. If you do, the deal's off and you go bye-bye. And I can walk away (or not if you broke our agreement with the latter two dealbreakers) knowing that I gave you a fair shot.

Oh, and if you could snort twice and stomp one of your hooves before breaking my leg so I can prepare myself mentally for the pain that would be super."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

wyominggrandma said:


> By the way, did a vet actually euthanize it, or to save even more money and have it happen quickly, did you actually shoot the horse yourself? Yes a well placed bullet is fast and quick, no doubt, but I wonder if you even had a vet out. Can't spend any more money on a horse than won't return a dollar now can we?


I had actually thought exactly the same thing. This whole story makes me feel dirty just for reading it and it is made ten times worse by the callousness of the OP, in fact the blaming of the horse, (calling it a moron because it charged a panel?) and then the casual "oh well, my bad" after the fact. There was no thought put into the decision, it was the easy way out. Those of you defending him should be able to see that he didn't give a flip about the horse, he just hated being out a few bucks...


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Do you know that for sure Hop? Do you know that this horse was destined to be a great horse? An easy horse? A family horse? What if after all was said and done, this horse destroyed your barn, kicked your wife in the head, killed a clients high priced horse...and you still had to put him down? 

Again, I am not defending Spences actions. I just think that there is probably a lot more to this story than what spence feels like sharing. All horses aren't sweet, some of them are down right mean. With the market overflowing with decent horses, why would you keep one around that had already shown a tendency towards aggression? 

As far as 'you should have rehomed him'. Really? Where? To a trainer? What trainer is going to say 'yup! I'll take him! A 4 year old, recently gelded, bad ground manners, no ride training with serious aggression issues...where do I sign up?!" The thought that all trainers are just dying to get their hands on this kind of horse is just absurd. Trainers are in business. They want a horse that has issues that can be worked through quickly. Not a recently gelded horse that is going to have to be fenced in steel until the hormones recede. 

In this market a 4 year old unregistered green broke horse is worth in the $350-$700/range. Between feed, fixing fences, time and other expenses...there isn't much profit there. While we all want to be that trainer that can afford to help a horse in need...in this economy, we can't afford to lose money on a horse either. 

I know I am coming across as this harsh individual that just randomly puts horses to sleep because of minor issues, I am not. I can just see where spence was coming from. He made a mistake. I doubt he will make it again.

I totally disagree that he was just mad he was out a few dollars. One call to the kill buyers and he could have easily recouped the money for at least the gelding. Instead he chose to have the horse euthed. I doubt a vet did it. That isn't wrong.


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## Dusty1228 (Dec 2, 2010)

Ok, I agree that OP did the right thing for the set of circumstances that arose from his uneducated choice. There was a very low possibility of finding this horse another home, or finding someone that would have the time, energy or desire to deal with it. 

The fact that he MADE the choice in the first place, with NO thought what so ever as to what he might be getting into, is what really butters my muffin. I mean there are only so many ways that the situation could have played out in the first place. 

The lack of forethought, impulsiveness and unpreparedness does indicate to me, immaturity in a sense. 

The fact that an innocent animal had to die because someone was unprepared to care for it, is completely unfair and ridiculous. 

The horse was a stud. He was a dangerous animal, how someone could think that just picking one up one day on a whim was going to be alright is beyond me. 

But, and I don't mean to get all up on people's nerves, I do find MOST people make these types of decisions when it comes to animals, it's cute, it's fluffy, it's big, it's a beautiful color, it's JUST what I want ~Insert Seemingly Logical Reason Here~ only to bring it home and find out it has a personality. It chews, it eats, it pees & poops, it kicks and bites. It's a living, breathing creature. To hell with THAT, let's euth it. Because, it's OBVIOUSLY the animal's fault that I made an uneducated, unthought-through decision. 

It's disgusting. And I see it every day, with dogs, cats, rabbits. Unfortunately, this time the animal happened to be dangerous and not just undesired. It couldn't be taken to the pound or left on a roadside somewhere.

Yes, OP made the right decision at the time, as I see it, nothing else could have been done. But, ONLY because he had made the wrong decision, or many wrong prior decisions.

Is it fair that an animal had to die so OP could 'learn his lesson'? Absolutely NOT. And I truly feel that this person should no longer have horses or large animals. If those are the types of choices you are making, based on very little thought or experience, you don't need to be the one responsible for the care of these huge, sensitive creatures. IMHO. It's NOT ok to take full responsibility for an animal you are unprepared to care for. It's NOT ok to use euthing it as an 'option' because you messed up. 

I understand, and I agree, but I am still very angry that people do this and I can't, in my mind believe 'Lesson Learned.'


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

Dusty1228 said:


> Is it fair that an animal had to die so OP could 'learn his lesson'? Absolutely NOT. And I truly feel that this person should no longer have horses or large animals. If those are the types of choices you are making, based on very little thought or experience, you don't need to be the one responsible for the care of these huge, sensitive creatures. IMHO. It's NOT ok to take full responsibility for an animal you are unprepared to care for. It's NOT ok to use euthing it as an 'option' because you messed up.


Totally agree with this paragraph. I just didn't wanna say it myself.


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## Cinder (Feb 20, 2011)

> And once again....just because some makes a mistake as a trainer doesn't mean they have to automatically be told that they are horrible and shouldn't be a trainer or be called a "trainer". As horse people, we ALL know that there even if we read all the books out there, something could still come up that we are unprepared for. Spence has never said he was an expert, so it is definitely possible he got more then what he was expecting. It happens. Belittling a person isn't going to change what happened, or how it turned out.


:shock:
:shock:
:shock:.

*Hits head on desk*.

We're not saying that Trainers never make mistakes. But as a person who people put their trust into to train their horses, don't you think we can assume he should've known better than to get a PROJECT Stud and be all like "Oh yeah it's gonna be a piece of cake. Resell for money, done deal. No problems." It isn't like the horse was 28 years old, or resold, or something. There may be an overpopulation of horses, but the simple fact it that Spence's oopsie moment caused a 4 year old horse it's life. And then he says "Oops, my bad, but really there was no other way".

When it's time for my first horse, I know enough not to get a stud or a project horse. Want to know why? Because I don't have enough expierence with them. I know that. You'd think a guy who gets paid to train other people's horses would have a light go off in his brain before doing this and think: "You know what, that's not a good idea." I understand people make mistakes but really.




> Do you know that for sure Hop? Do you know that this horse was destined to be a great horse? An easy horse? A family horse? What if after all was said and done, this horse destroyed your barn, kicked your wife in the head, killed a clients high priced horse...and you still had to put him down?


 
We don't know. Perhaps chiefly because this horse was killed before any of us could. This horse did not "destroy" the barn, he broke a few panels- OMG SO much destruction! I've seen cronic cribbers do worse. This horse did *not* kick the wife in the head (if I remember correctly) he kicked AT her. I'VE been kicked at by a horse before. I didn't raise hell, because that's a danger of working with horses. He did NOT kill a client's high-priced horse, he wanted to get in with some geldings and who knows what he would've done if he did. Perhaps try to form a pecking order and get companionship like horses are MADE to do?



> Again, I am not defending Spences actions. I just think that there is probably a lot more to this story than what spence feels like sharing. All horses aren't sweet, some of them are down right mean. With the market overflowing with decent horses, why would you keep one around that had already shown a tendency towards aggression?


 
Why doesn't Spence enlighten us then? I'd love to know the side of this story he isn't sharing. Yes, all horses are not perfect. Yes, there is overpopulation. But if we euthed every horse who has "shown a tendency towards aggression" half of the horses I know would be dead. Horses are huge creatures with minds of their own, and it is foolish to act or think otherwise. Yes, some are such a danger that they have to be euthed. BUT I believe this horse acted in a way even the most perfectly-spirited horse would act had they been in his situation. 



> As far as 'you should have rehomed him'. Really? Where? To a trainer? What trainer is going to say 'yup! I'll take him! A 4 year old, recently gelded, bad ground manners, no ride training with serious aggression issues...where do I sign up?!" The thought that all trainers are just dying to get their hands on this kind of horse is just absurd. Trainers are in business. They want a horse that has issues that can be worked through quickly. Not a recently gelded horse that is going to have to be fenced in steel until the hormones recede.


 
I agree that rehoming the way he was might have been difficult. But he made the choice to get that horse, mightn't he have at least tried to take a look around before deciding on euthansia?



> In this market a 4 year old unregistered green broke horse is worth in the $350-$700/range. Between feed, fixing fences, time and other expenses...there isn't much profit there. While we all want to be that trainer that can afford to help a horse in need...in this economy, we can't afford to lose money on a horse either.


 
That's a risk people like Spence take, though. There's a saying: "If you make a small fortune in the horse business, you must have started with a large fortune" for a reason. 
​


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

I agree with what Cinder said. It doesn't sound like he even gave it a chance to rehome or TRY to find another home. He made the choice to get an unbroke stud, it was gelded and didn't even give it enough days to settle in. I am curious, if this had been an unbroke gelding and was acting this way, I bet the majority of the folks who have felt Spence was okay taking the easy way out would be saying" oh my it was a 4 yr old unbroke gelding and you didn't give it a chance. Obviously it should have been gelded long before it was 4, but still, Spence made the decision to buy this colt. He made the decision to take it home, didn't sound like anyone put a gun to his head and FORCE him to buy and bring it home. He made the decision based on the fact that he calls himself a trainer and could easly train this horse. Wrong decision.
Heck, I have had a horse go through a fence to join other horses, have had a pushy horse bang into panels I was trying to fix, did I destroy it because of that? Nope, its a horse with bad manners. He never said this horse tried to savage him or his wife, tried to pound him into the ground, never even said much of anything except he destroyed panels and broke through a fence. As far as kicking, I bet anyone on this forum has had a horse kick at them, you don't euth them because of it. Shame that this young horse who had just been gelded was not given a chance to settle down in his new home. Shame that someone else might have come along to buy this horse with the KNOWLEDGE of horses and realized it would take time and also proper facilities to house said horse until trained. Shame that this horse sounds like he was a spoiled pet of someone and needed to be taught properly, not bought by someone who calls himself a trainer and then killed because said trainer didn't have a clue how to handle him.
I live in Wyoming there are hundreds of idiots out there who call themselves trainers because they have ridden a few horses and VIOLA, they are trainers now and ready to take on clients. Anyone can call themselves trainers, but that doesn't make them one. Yes, a person has to learn to be a trainer, but for the folks who are saying" but how does one become a trainer until they learn by mistakes" would you take your horse to a trainer without checking out his experience? You normally work for YEARS with qualified experienced trainers who have come up through the ranks themselves, not overnight wonders.
If you have a kid than can drive a car/truck on the farm and the dirt roads, would you call them qualified to drive in downtown New York or LA just because they can drive down a back road in the country? Dont' think so. Would you let someone shoe your horse because "heck I watched my grandpa shoe horses, so I am an expert and can shoe yours"? Nope don't think so
Anyone can call themselves anything they want, doesn't make them capable of handling studs, untrained colts, or have the knowledge to do so. But in their minds they think they are "trainers" cause folks bring horses to them.
So, this "trainer" goes out, gets a stallion when he hasn't even worked with one before, brings him home, gets him gelded(or he was already gelded) gives him no time to calm down, no time to get used to his new surroundings, has him act like a unbroke untrained horse will act in new surroundings and then "oops my bad" because he made a mistake that cost a horse his life. Gee, did he ever consider giving him back to the folks he bought him from? Never saw that he even attempted to do that, just euthanzied him the next day he got him.IF a horse is dangerous because he runs through a fence, breaks down a panel(how was this panel put together, with wire and string)or kicks and needs to be put down, I pity any horse he trains, because all horses are going to be stupid and do something dangerous at some point in their early years, especially if they have had no training, heck old horse do stupid stuff.
Thats not a mistake, that is stupidity in every sense of the word and a young horse did not even have a chance to see if he could be trained, not even have a chance to see if he was indeed dangerous, just dead.


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

*Head desk* 

I have so many bad stuff to say to the OP, but I'll keep it in. Poor horse, dead for human error. What is this world coming to? Please tell me this is a fictional thread.


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## glitterhorse (Mar 20, 2011)

That's just sad. There was no reason to do that to the poor thing! Sure, if the horse wasn't right in the head I could understand but taking away his LIFE when nothing was wrong? You shouldn't have bought a horse that you couldn't handle!


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Spence I think you were just the last person in a long line of poor decisions made with regards to this horse.

I'm going to guess he wasn't bred for any particular reason - Decision number 1: He probably shouldn't have been bred.

The people who owned him after he was 'rail thin' clearly did no training with him - Decision number 2: He probably shouldn't have been sold to them.

Then on to you - Decision number 3: Certainly a poor decision on your behalf to take on such a horse.

Perhaps euthing was the only option, I don't know. I can tell you that around here it WOULD be the only option as the rescues wouldn't take him and you would have zero chance of selling him. As for trainers, well they don't just take projects on for fun, it's hard enough to make money out of horses let alone starting with one that may never amount to anything.

I am saddened that this horse was euthed but there is no use pointing the finger at one person, many people are to blame.


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## lildonkey8 (Dec 12, 2010)

Katesrider011 said:


> *Head desk*
> 
> I have so many bad stuff to say to the OP, but I'll keep it in. Poor horse, dead for human error. What is this world coming to? Please tell me this is a fictional thread.





glitterhorse said:


> That's just sad. There was no reason to do that to the poor thing! Sure, if the horse wasn't right in the head I could understand but taking away his LIFE when nothing was wrong? You shouldn't have bought a horse that you couldn't handle!


Guys, we know it's D-U-M-B they consider it. They haven't put him down yet though, greatly. 

OP, this ain't the right choice. I hope you see this thread soon cuz you got ten pages of correct stuff to read. You don't have to kill the thing! Dozens of other options, 1) Sell him, 2) send him to a rescue, 3) give him away. You could do something different both of you would be happy about, who knows? He might of made a wonderful stud for someone else, if you hadn't gelded him:evil::evil::evil:


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

lildonkey, the horse has been euthed. Spence all but said it in his second or third post. 

While none of the things in my 'scenario' happened, they easily could have. He owned the horse. He felt the horse was dangerous. He didn't want to pass a dangerous horse onto another person. He had the horse PTS. 

Think of how you would feel if you bought a horse from a trainer that said "Oh we just don't have the facilities for him right now" or "We just don't have the time to train him!" to find out that it was *this* horse. A horse that has show obvious aggression, wasn't gelded until late 4 year old. How many of you would be screaming about what a jerk that 'trainer' was. 

I think this horse needed more time but I *UNDERSTAND* spences decision. 

Those of you who have never dealt with a truly dangerous horse (and since you weren't there to see the incidents, you don't know how dangerous this horse was) don't know the kind of decisions that need to be made.


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## lildonkey8 (Dec 12, 2010)

oh, I didn't read that, I "skipped".


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## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

Cinder well said you took the words from my mouth!!


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## Cinder (Feb 20, 2011)

> lildonkey, the horse has been euthed. Spence all but said it in his second or third post.
> 
> While none of the things in my 'scenario' happened, they easily could have. He owned the horse. He felt the horse was dangerous. He didn't want to pass a dangerous horse onto another person. He had the horse PTS.
> 
> ...


If you don't have the facilities or time to train a horse, maybe you shouldn't _purchase _the horse. 

Corino, the thing is you weren't there either, and as many people in this thread have stated, this horse doesn't seem like a crazy, raging, phsycho, but like how any other horse would act in his situation. I can't say this for sure, but none of us can.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

I agree Cinder, none of us were there, so nobody can speculate on what really happened since Spence has seemed to disappear once most of us told him what we thought.
He took on a horse that he thought he was good enough to train and "break". He didn't even give the poor horse enough time to see if he would calm down for goodness sakes. The horse did nothing more than most horses do when they get to a new place, run around, try to get to other horses and hit a fence panel and bent it.So he killed it. 
Did he offer the other people the horse back? Did he, in his great knowledge ASK another REAL trainer to come see the horse and get an opinion about probablilty of training him?
Lets face it, if this whole thing is true, then the only person to blame is the one who thought he was a good trainer, bought or was given a horse that he thought he could train, took it home unprepared to deal with an unbroken 4 yr old horse and then killed it without a second thought because it didnt' turn out like he planned. 
Then he gets on a public forum and tells the story expecting everyone to say" oh poor Spence, I am so sorry you lost money on this horse, after all thats what trainers do, make money.". 
Instead what everyone said, is "why did you get this horse????" And now Spence is gone. Hope he doesn't go buy another project horse that he can't handle, or alot of horses in his area are going to be killed, since I wonder if he IS a trainer like he thinks he is.


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## HopalongCassidy (Dec 19, 2010)

Romantic Lyric said:


> "Okay Horse. I'm going to allow you break one of my legs in this training process. Just the one. You can't break any of my other bones, paralyze me for life or kill me. If you do, the deal's off and you go bye-bye. And I can walk away (or not if you broke our agreement with the latter two dealbreakers) knowing that I gave you a fair shot.
> 
> Oh, and if you could snort twice and stomp one of your hooves before breaking my leg so I can prepare myself mentally for the pain that would be super."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry for taking so long to respond. Was out collecting rocks. Anyway. Well i wasn't going to give him the right away to my leg but......

Also if he snorts twice and stomps one..... Use your brain and get out of the way if he charges you. This dodo didn't (Or what i read) didn't even give the horse time to get use to him being gelded. That's what ****ed me off the most!


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

I agree. No chance at all. Brought a horse home, did not give it ANY chance at all and killed it. Why? Because he is so hung up on himself being a "trainer" that he couldn't admit he could not handle this horse. 
Sad for the horse. Sure hope this isnt how he takes care off all his mistakes.


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## HopalongCassidy (Dec 19, 2010)

corinowalk said:


> Do you know that for sure Hop? Do you know that this horse was destined to be a great horse? An easy horse? A family horse? What if after all was said and done, this horse destroyed your barn, kicked your wife in the head, killed a clients high priced horse...and you still had to put him down?
> 
> Again, I am not defending Spences actions. I just think that there is probably a lot more to this story than what spence feels like sharing. All horses aren't sweet, some of them are down right mean. With the market overflowing with decent horses, why would you keep one around that had already shown a tendency towards aggression?
> 
> ...


Corino....... Haven't anyone heard of **** Barb-Wire. You put up five strands of that and the **** horse will only try to go threw that once until he finds out it ain't going to budge. and it hurts to try. Horses are stupid (I know you didn't say they were.) so if it hurts them the first time they won't do it again. 

I didn't say re home him. I more or less said "GROW SOME BALLS" and work with the horse you bought. It takes about two/three weeks for the horse to get over it's soreness from being gelded did he give him that time I guess! (And if he did give him that long.) I'd of asked the vet out to check on the place where his manhood use to be maybe the vet F-up and hurt him more. 

Tell you the **** truth. I'd of tooken him if my step dad would let me cause he wouldn't of been able to run threw five strands of barb-wire. My step dad agrees with me fully that he should of let the horse have more time. Well if he wouldn't have gave me him free i'd maybe payed 100 dollars no more and the way he was acting that's all he should have offered to sell him for. I ain't trying to be a trainer or a big hot shot, but just to give him a chance.... was all i'm saying.

Harsh. Na your just not sugarcoating anything witch is fine with me. And like i said before. 

A **** big mistake he did make. With a heart brake ending. Also like i said. That horse could of went to another home and probably got the proper care. And yes it's very very very WRONG!


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## HopalongCassidy (Dec 19, 2010)

wyominggrandma said:


> I agree. No chance at all. Brought a horse home, did not give it ANY chance at all and killed it. Why? Because he is so hung up on himself being a "trainer" that he couldn't admit he could not handle this horse.
> Sad for the horse. Sure hope this isnt how he takes care off all his mistakes.


I agree 2,000% with you. there is nothing wrong with defeat. He's a beginner trainer and sometime it's better to let go and learn then try again. 

This really bites at my heart knowing he didn't get a chance. I'm really angry but hurt at the same time. Even though i don't know the horse. It's something i love.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I fail to see the point of posting this thread, going to bed, heading to work then going ahead and euthing the horse. What was the point in telling us if you did not want opinions or take the time to read them before euthing anyway?




spence said:


> So yes, we made a mistake. Whoops, my bad. If it had been a more sellable horse, it would have ended differently, however that was what we felt to be the best option at the time.


I do agree that the horse would not have been easy to rehome. However you were stupid enough to buy it, you are not the only idiot in the world, and it is more appealing since it was gelded. Did you expect gelding to have instant effects? 

I am horrified that you can look at this appalling mistake as a whoops my bad. 




kevinshorses said:


> I think Spence made a poor decision putting the horse down but it doesn't bother me too much. There are plenty of good horses out there right now so nobody HAS to deal with a "bad" one.


I completely agree with this, there are a flood of horses out there - but this was not a bad horse, it behaved exactly as most of us would expect it to. 



VelvetsAB said:


> And how else is someone to get experience, if not by doing? Spence just happened to pick the wrong horse, which could happen to anyone.
> 
> And once again....just because some makes a mistake as a trainer doesn't mean they have to automatically be told that they are horrible and shouldn't be a trainer or be called a "trainer".


Velvets I could understand your point if he had bought a 12 year old mare or gelding that needed some work and ended up being dangerous. 

Spence bought a 4 yr old unhandled stallion - how on earth did he expect it to behave. You don't need much experience to figure that one out. 

And I for the record think he has no business calling himself a trainer - a trainer would have known what to expect, even if they didn't have the facilities to handle it. A half decent trainer would not have taken a young stallion if they couldn't handle it.


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## Cinder (Feb 20, 2011)

> Spence bought a 4 yr old unhandled stallion - how on earth did he expect it to behave. You don't need much experience to figure that one out.
> 
> And I for the record think he has no business calling himself a trainer - a trainer would have known what to expect, even if they didn't have the facilities to handle it. A half decent trainer would not have taken a young stallion if they couldn't handle it.


I completely agree with this.


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## HopalongCassidy (Dec 19, 2010)

Well......................... Since it's done with and... And the horse is gone to horse heaven. I know god has a special place for every horse and this horse has a special place to. But he also holds a place in my heart. (I can't say why, just the though of i could have had him and tried my best, as my heart asking why you didn't ask on of us.) 

All i'm going to say is. OP i wish you would of asked one of us if we would of taken him. I'm PO'ed that you didn't give him a change but what can i do bring him back no so this thread is a bust. We're going around in circles agreeing with each other that you did wrong then you did right.

There will always be two point of view and no one will settle on just one of them. OP i will say please don't ever get another horse you can't handle. And if you can't handle him Just because you couldn't doesn't mean someone else couldn't. I ain't saying i could but i can't see how you wouldn't let some one else try.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

I am beginning to wonder if Spence's post is even a real post. He got on with the original post, added one more, then disappeared when nobody felt sorry for him, except for a few.
He certainly is not a trainer, and certainly not one I would send my horse to this might be the outcome: 
"Hi, this is Spence. I am sorry but your horse made me mad today. He stood on my boot and since I felt he might do this to another, I killed him. Oops my bad, I made another mistake".
What he did is totally unacceptable and I would love to let people in his area know what kind of trainer he is, or what kind of trainer he thinks he is.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

HopalongCassidy said:


> Corino....... Haven't anyone heard of **** Barb-Wire. You put up five strands of that and the **** horse will only try to go threw that once until he finds out it ain't going to budge. and it hurts to try. Horses are stupid (I know you didn't say they were.) so if it hurts them the first time they won't do it again.
> 
> I didn't say re home him. I more or less said "GROW SOME BALLS" and work with the horse you bought. It takes about two/three weeks for the horse to get over it's soreness from being gelded did he give him that time I guess! (And if he did give him that long.) I'd of asked the vet out to check on the place where his manhood use to be maybe the vet F-up and hurt him more.
> 
> ...



BARBED WIRE?! Are you F-ing kidding me?!?!?!?! You must be joking. Seriously. You have a problem with putting a horse to a DECENT death but have no problem letting an UNHANDLED stallion run through a 5 strand barbed wire fence?! WHICH HURTS MORE?!?!??!?!?!? You were outraged with this man putting this horse down, I am outraged at your SUGGESTION! 

Go right on ahead and think that you could handle a horse like this. You will be the next one with a broken freaking neck! Try dressing wounds from 5 strands of barbed wire on a horse that is *ALREADY* aggressive. 

Spence made a mistake. Yours will be bigger. You know why? Because you think with a sprinkle of sunshine and a pinch of smoochie-poos this horse would be putty in your hands. Have you ever even OWNED a horse?!??!


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

I really really hope you are kidding Hopalong, this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of. Have you ever seen the damage a single strand of barb wire will do to a horse? A 5 strand fence would probably end up with such horrific injuries it would have to be destroyed. I am curious, as Corinowalk asked, do you even own a horse? Have you ever owned a horse? I think you are a young girl that has watched too many horse movies and think a few pats and loves and the horse will be great. I would be scared to sell a horse to someone who thinks horses are stupid and once they run through a fence will never do it again. 
This whole thread is so sad, one horse was killed because the "trainer" who bought him was too macho to admit he made a mistake and killed a horse because he didn't want to give it a chance because he knew he could not train it successfully and seems he did not want to give it to someone else because maybe it might get around to others that he wasn't a good trainer and his "reputation" might be ruined.
Then you Hopalong seems to think a 5 strand barb wire fence will teach a horse because they are stupid. Do you have any experience with horses at all? Do you even know where the OP lives? How would you have "tooken" him if he lived ten states away from you? I think you need to learn a bit more about horses and how they think and how they react before you own one.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Project (N)- An assignment undertaken by a person or group of persons, typically as a *long-term task that requires independent research*.

This is all I am going to say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lildonkey8 (Dec 12, 2010)

Why'd you say that? Sure the 5 strand barb wire would hurt him but she's just stating that she'd take him! I don't see why that was necassary
EDIT: For Wyoming Granma


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

Well said Cori.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

my horse got caught in a SINGLE strand of barbed-wire and almost lost an entire hoof, it took extrensive healing time, and she had some bad behavior and she's a good horse much less a dangerous horse, imagine putting stuff ona horse that IS dangerous. and i have pictures to prove it as well, we have several people here that have had barbed wire injuries and some where to the BONE. could you take acare of a horse and get that taken care of the first day you get him? because i'm sure he's going to try to run through the fence there with you. yes horses can be dumb and when instincts take over and they are scared opr being aggressivethey WILL try to run through any fence. my mustang mare did through a single barbed wire and it flayed her chest right open, i would rather have the horse humanly put down that put through your care. sheesh.


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

Barbed wire sucks. We had it once (when I was a newbie to horses) and I lost a horse because of it. It SUCKS.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

If a horse will run through hot wire, it will probably run through barb wire, and like everyone else said that would be way worse. 
Cori, Velvet -you guys are such troopers -gotta luv it
Well said Sunny.


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

Simply my opinion here...

If a horse is truly dangerous then more often than not the best thing to do is humanely euth that horse. Dangerous horses are the ones that get passed around until they wind up starving to death in someone's back paddock because no one is game to go near them.

My problem does not lie with euthing a dangerous horse.

In this situation my problem lies with actively looking for a PROJECT horse. A project horse is one you take on to work with over a period of time. It is not a horse that you buy and expect to be an angel from the start. 

When you went out looking for a project and brought home a 4 year old colt you took responsibility for him. You should have done some research before bringing home a colt. You should have known that gelding was not going to be an instant cure. You should have known that he was not going to be an easy fix.

The way the thread comes across is that you went in to it blind and decided it was too hard. That is what is not OK in my books.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

well said HC, thats the simplest and best way to put it. and Sunny i AGREE completely

and HC.. your avatar gave me the giggles. (sorry had to be said!)


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

HowClever said:


> In this situation my problem lies with actively looking for a PROJECT horse. A project horse is one you take on to work with over a period of time. It is not a horse that you buy and expect to be an angel from the start.
> 
> When you went out looking for a project and brought home a 4 year old colt you took responsibility for him. You should have done some research before bringing home a colt. You should have known that gelding was not going to be an instant cure. You should have known that he was not going to be an easy fix.
> 
> The way the thread comes across is that you went in to it blind and decided it was too hard. That is what is not OK in my books.



Whoops his bad! :think: :shock::shock:


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

AlexS said:


> Whoops his bad! :think: :shock::shock:


Exactly. 

If you make a mistake that ends in the death of an animal at least give that animal a little respect and don't be so callous.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I am a little baffled at these responses, considering most of us are pro-slaughter.

Maybe it's not what WE would have done, but spence took an unpredictable, potentially dangerous, completely worthless (in this economy) untrained stud and he gave it a HUMANE death. Where exactly do you guys think this horse would have ended up otherwise? :-|

He spared this horse a grueling trip up to Canada, where his fate would have been the same except probably not as pleasant. 

Yes, there's a CHANCE someone would have felt sorry for him, but quite frankly, there are enough good horses in this world going to death, why tangle with the bad ones? I think he did this horse a favor.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

MM I can see your point, and I would agree with you, if this was what he did - but it isn't. 

He paid for the horse to be gelded, he obviously thought he had the skills to deal with a stallion, because he was living in la la land. 
The horse was not dangerous, it was just a newly gelded horse, that went through a fence.


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## Dusty1228 (Dec 2, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I am a little baffled at these responses, considering most of us are pro-slaughter.
> 
> Maybe it's not what WE would have done, but spence took an unpredictable, potentially dangerous, completely worthless (in this economy) untrained stud and he gave it a HUMANE death. Where exactly do you guys think this horse would have ended up otherwise? :-|
> 
> ...


I agree. He did the horse a favor. HOWEVER, it was his own stupidity that forced the life/death choice and I think THAT is what is teeing everyone off. His original choice to buy the horse and therefore sentence it to death was incredibly uneducated and ridiculous.

He bought a stud, but wasn't prepared for it's aggressiveness. Someone else who could have bought him ORIGINALLY, more than likely would have been more prepared to give the horse the time it needed to wind down, in a safe environment. Once he bought the animal, it was a death sentence, no matter what.

In MY case, what is irking me is NOT that he put the horse down. It's that he bought it at all. It makes me wonder what other types of crazy things this person might see fit to do with the final thought being 'Oops, My bad. Erase. Start over.'


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## Dusty1228 (Dec 2, 2010)

Sorry for the double-post, but I, too have wondered if the OP was a real post or one just intended to stir things up, or maybe gauge a reaction?

I mean seriously, The OP was a very straightforward: I did this today. The End.
Not asking for advice, not asking for comfort, no guilt, no shame, no questions.

So, I got to thinking WHY would someone post this? 
It makes no sense to me.

You post stories to tell people when they make you happy, sad, angry, irritated. You post stories when you want advice, help, comfort or someone to share in your joy, pain, upset, love.

But, none of these things are present in the OP. NONE. So, that takes me back to my original question. WHY?

I am about 65% in the way of believing that this was not a real story at all, but something made up to force a reaction and to see just what different types of reactions there would be. 

Especially since Spence has been long gone since his second post. He is probably sitting back watching us all get angry.

I wonder...


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

thats my feelings also about this. Not that a horse was destroyed, but the fact that this so called self trainer decided to buy a horse that he had no business buying, was not capable of training and then because it acted just like the horse it was was the day he bought it, an untrained 4 year old stud colt, he killed it. He didn't offer to return the horse, for free even since he said he did't care about losing the money, didn't even try to find it a new home, just killed it within days of bringing it home.
If he hadn't bought it, someone else might have that would have been good enough to train it and give it the time it needs. We all tell people to give a new horse time to ajust to moving to a new barn, to moving to a new owners, giving it a few days to settle down and so its reasonable to not like that this supposed trainer didn't give this horse a chance at all.
and his callous remark of " so I made a mistake, oops my bad" was a bit to much.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I don't think he is a troll or trying to get a reaction, he has been a member here for a year, and has close to 300 posts. He shared that he is a new father recently in the Saloon. 

I wish he were trolling, but I don't think he is.


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## Gidget (Jan 19, 2010)

The poor horse was only 4 years old. There are lots of horses who aren't gelded at this age and there are stallions that are well behaved. I would have atleast given him more of a chance as he wasn't really given much of one to prove to you that he can be a good horse. 
If you couldn't have a good hand on this horse I would have sent him to a trainer or give him away to someone more knowledgeable.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

I don't think he is trolling either, although I really wish he were. He also posted his farm website once on the forum as well. From the descriptions there, it sounds as if they are mostly self taught, and have not been doing this very long at all and in fact, have not been in horses very long either. While that in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, I can't think of a poorer choice for a "project horse".


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

I seriously doubt he is a troll. 

If this was an experiment of some kind, I would have gladly participated anyways.

I feel totally horrible for this horse. His whole life led him to that point. Spence wasn't the only one who made poor decisions on his part. 

We are all going round and round with this topic. No one wanted to see this horse die but, truth be told, that was his fate. Hopefully spence learned his lesson and wont be doing this again. 

Just for my own sake of mind, spence never called himself a trainer (at least not that I can remember). To me, he flips easy horses or puts miles on clients horses. That is different from a trainer. A trainer is paid to work out issues, fine tune and put the bells and whistles on. What spence does is exercise ride. He thought this horse was going to be easy, he wasn't.


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## Gidget (Jan 19, 2010)

personally this needs to be dicontinued as we are all just getting upset and going on about it. 

I don't think he should have been put down but there is nothing we can do about it.It's done and over with.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

I realize this wasn't written here, but on his website, they claim to offer, under training - Finishing of Green Horses, Refresher Courses for Older Horses, Halter Breaking & Gentling Horses, Gun Breaking Horses, and *Re-training Problem Horses*. The last one bothers me, as I would not have even considered this a problem horse, and yet they claim to be able to correct them.


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## vikki92 (Dec 18, 2010)

Leaving thred.

R.I.P Gelding


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Yeah I can see the point, the post itself was a little odd, not sure why someone would post this on a horse lovers forum and expect a good response. I think I'm just personally a little surprised how people are taking it.

At the end of the day, the horse died a humane death. It really doesn't matter why to me, as long as he wasn't abused or neglected. I guess it boils down to personal opinion and preference though. A lot of people would be outraged if I put a young horse down with a relatively simple injury, but if I don't have resources to heal it, the kindest thing is death.

I understand it's the mentality that has people so irked, but is it really helping anyone to get so worked up over it?


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I have to agree with Cori, AB, and Velvet on this one.

The man did not elaborate. Likely because he is a man and just said what happened, instead of going into explicit detail. This horse could have been a lot more dangerous than his post let on. Or maybe not. We don't know. But I'd rather a possibly dangerous horse be humanely put down than be sold to a 16 year old girl that thinks she's a wunderkid trainer and gets killed.

Also, we do not know where this guy is. He very well could have known that this horse wouldn't rehome without looking for months and months. He had already deemed the horse too dangerous for his and his clients' horses, and seeing as him and his wife are pregnant, I can completely understand wanting that horse OUT and NOW, instead of trying to contain him long enough for someone to come take him.

I agree it was a mistake, he shouldn't have taken on the horse in the first place. I wish things had ended differently, but it's no skin off my nose, to be honest. 

Lastly, I do not think Spence is really as callous as the "whoops, my bad," comment is being interpreted. I read it as a sarcastic and defensive remark, not one of actual crudeness.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

MM, of course it is a good thing that the horse was not neglected or starved, but I think your argument is weak sauce. 

Spence just had a child should it (if possible) be put to sleep so that it does not die of disease or murder, or a bad decision later in life. Would it be kinder to do that now? Surely not. 
I agree the horse didn't know what was happening, so was under no stress - but Spence has other horses, should he? He is taking in horses to train, should he?

I agree with horse slaughter, I agree with euthing, I will not stand by and agree with some moron who chose a horse they did not have the facilities for and then PTS. 

How would you feel about someone adopting a wild mustang and putting it to sleep a few days later because they could not cope with it? Is that the horses fault, or should the person adopting it known what they were getting into?

The faults of this horse were not hidden, he knew he was taking a 4 yr old stallion. Therefore he should have been able to deal with that. All the horse did was break through fences. 

Apachie, do you have a link to Spence's website? I would like to provide reviews to alert prospective clients to his cluelessness!


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

riccil0ve said:


> Lastly, I do not think Spence is really as callous as the "whoops, my bad," comment is being interpreted. I read it as a sarcastic and defensive remark, not one of actual crudeness.


He should feel defensive, he PTS for a problem he took on, what responses was he expecting to receive? And if that's the best he can manage, then that confirms my opinion of him.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I imagine he is feeling defensive. And one only ever feels defensive when they are holding any doubt. I'm sure he feels the gravity of the situation, and that he's learned his lesson the hard way. It was an unfortunate ending, but I doubt he's going to go around buying project horses and euthing them.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

So then why post about it in the first place, it certainly didn't influence his decision.


I hope he feels bad. It is his error, his fault. He should feel bad. No pity here.


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## Dusty1228 (Dec 2, 2010)

I'm not saying he was a troll, specifically, I was just wondering if this was just one of 'those things', ya know? 
I've seen stranger things posted on other psychology forums, and some of my past studies just got me analyzing his post. I do these things because I'm a weirdo. It just seemed off to me.
~shrugs~


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

I think this should be closed, it is going around in circles and not getting anywhere at all.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Dusty1228 said:


> I've seen stranger things posted on other psychology forums, and some of my past studies just got me analyzing his post. I do these things because I'm a weirdo. It just seemed off to me.
> ~shrugs~


Right, you are not the only one with a psych background - it is strange. But I believe it is also fact. 

Pinto, the mods moved this thread from the Saloon so they are aware of it - report it if you like. 

I personally think this should be discussed. I am not an all cuddling love em to death horse person - I believe in slaughter, but I care about horses at the same time. Maybe this discussion will help others who are willing to have a discussion when Spence did not. And I feel it is fair that he feels the wrath of those who do not agree with him.


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

Yes I agree, but it is not getting anywhere. Im not goign to report it. It is a good discussion.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I think it is an important issue. I think many feel passionate about it - and it should be here for a little while yet so that those who would think of buying an untrained horse can think a minute.


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## sandy2u1 (May 7, 2008)

I'm not a bit surprised by many of the members reactions to this thread. While many of us believe in humanly euthanizing a horse when necessary, most of us feel it is not a decision to be taken lightly. This is not a man whom exhausted every possibility with this horse. He made no effort whatsoever. 

The funny thing is, if a person where to come in the training section and post a thread saying 'Help, IDK what to do with my horse. I just got him castrated last week and he has never been handled, but he is charging the arena panels, what shud I do', I bet you there would not be a single person that answered saying you should have him euthanized. Most of you would say something along the lines of 'it will take some time before his hormones get under control' or 'hire a trainer' or 'you need to assert yourself as the leader' or you need to rehome him. 

Why is it so different for a self-proclaimed trainer?


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

^^ I agree with this 100%


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

Alex, his ranch name is Risky Business Ranch (how ironic). If you google that it takes you to his public facebook business page, which has a link to his website. I pulled it out of a dead thread in the Saloon, where he wanted input on his site, but I'm not going to post it here. It is easy enough to find, for anyone who wants to.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

being in the place spence was in may have been a hard decision on whether to put it down or not. he may have put more money INTO the horse then he could have gotten out of and truely thought it was the best way out for the horse, yes they messed up, he admitted that, and i think the reason for this thread was possibly because he felt bad and wanted a little bit of support or condolence on what he did may have been the right thing to do.

Yes he sounded calloused but that was only after everyone jumped his case immediatly.


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## Cinder (Feb 20, 2011)

MM, about your earlier post:

I've said this before. If every horse who had shown violent tendencies were euthed, half of the horses I know would be gone. And how many others that have made a turn around? 

I understand pro-slaughter and while I don't know enough of the debate to say what I am, I think it is _ridiculous _to stand back and say: "There's enough horses, why should we have to deal with a violent one?"

In my opinion, this horse acted the way any other horse would act in his situation- as an untrained, recently gelded horse in a new place- and could have been turned around given TIME. I don't KNOW that, but none of us do. 

Horses are by nature prey animals. They don't think "I might hurt someone!" when they panic. That is the way they are and it is foolish to act otherwise. No, it is not acceptable for horses to kick, bite, etc. BUT this is not an end-all behavior and can be corrected. I've been kicked at before. Bit, stomped on, bucked off, you name it. Were those horses euthed? No. What are they doing as we speak? Being used as lesson horses. 

And let's look at the deeper reasons for this horse's behavior: *Herd sourness? *Pain? *Being a horse (reference to one of my earlier posts, I won't go back and quote it). Just because a horse shows violent behavior, does not automatically mean it is a phsycho and OMG MUST DIE. The horse I mentioned that kicked at me? He had pain in the hoof I was trying to pick out. Bucked off? Over excited. Bit? Spoiled. And so on and so forth. 

The end is simply this: A four year old horse was killed for Spence's idiotic mistake. There does not even seem to be any EFFORT put in to having this have gone any other way on Spence's part. 

I don't have a problem with euthing but I don't believe we should euth at the slightest whim. It is easy to step back and say "The horse was dangerous, it's not my problem." It is harder to admit your mistake and try your best to go with another option. If Spence would've done that and THEN euthed the horse, I would have no or much less problems with this.


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## vikki92 (Dec 18, 2010)

apachiedragon said:


> Alex, his ranch name is Risky Business Ranch (how ironic). If you google that it takes you to his public facebook business page, which has a link to his website. I pulled it out of a dead thread in the Saloon, where he wanted input on his site, but I'm not going to post it here. It is easy enough to find, for anyone who wants to.


I went the saloon, for some reason when I go there no threds show up.


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

vikki92 said:


> I went the saloon, for some reason when I go there no threds show up.


You have to be 21 now to join the saloon.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

Wow. I find it interesting this guy calls the HORSE a moron. I looked up RBR's FB page and according to that page the horse in question is Sparky, a Morgan x Mustang cross and he was listed for sale as of 4/24. I surely hope this horse did not meet his fate because of an inexperienced 'cowboy' taking on more than he could handle... Why would you rely on a wire fence to keep a stud away from geldings? That's silly. As for him charging at the fence, what do you expect from a stallion? And he's so YOUNG. You took him knowing he was a PROJECT, but you put no effort into training him or even giving him a chance?


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

What a waste of what could've been a decent horse.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Katesrider011 said:


> You have to be 21 now to join the saloon.


I am well over 21 and didn't see what to click on to join the group???


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

churumbeque said:


> I am well over 21 and didn't see what to click on to join the group???


I think you have to PM the admin to let you in.


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## BarrelRacer86 (Jul 6, 2010)

He was a cute little horse
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

I'm curious, as he's already pts on here, yet for sale on their fbook page.
I'm half tempted to ask how much they're looking for, and then why he's already pts on another site. *shrugs* It's actually a bit funny to me, because normally (hence, normally), a trainer wouldn't want their reputation to go down the drain because of lies. I feel for the horse, whether it be dead or alive.
And if he has been pts, would he not have posted on his page that the horse is no longer for sale, as opposed to leaving him up for sale?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Iseul said:


> I'm curious, as he's already pts on here, yet for sale on their fbook page.
> I'm half tempted to ask how much they're looking for, and then why he's already pts on another site. *shrugs* It's actually a bit funny to me, because normally (hence, normally), a trainer wouldn't want their reputation to go down the drain because of lies. I feel for the horse, whether it be dead or alive.
> And if he has been pts, would he not have posted on his page that the horse is no longer for sale, as opposed to leaving him up for sale?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was on thier website and he was not for sale on there


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

apachiedragon said:


> I realize this wasn't written here, but on his website, they claim to offer, under training - Finishing of Green Horses, Refresher Courses for Older Horses, Halter Breaking & Gentling Horses, Gun Breaking Horses, and *Re-training Problem Horses*.


I'm just speechless. 

While (as I stated) I can understand the beginner who made a mistake taking too much of a horse in 1st place to consider euth. Not cool, but in this economy it may be the only way to go sometime. But if you claim yourself a _*trainer *_and do it the way it was done... Well... I don't know what to say then... I sincerely hope people won't be sending their horses in that place!


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

And I also notice that on facebook he was for sale, not FTGH, and no mention of his "bad" habits, or anything else about him, not even a description. According to other posts he was "coming along so well", but apparently not well enough to suit....

I also noticed they were looking for more projects, as in plural, when they got him and they were bringing in clients' horses within days of this horse being gelded. Sounds to me like they are either lacking a LOT of common sense, or just plain do not care.


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## Dusty1228 (Dec 2, 2010)

His last post about THAT ^^ horse was 16 hours ago.

*Oh goodness, was a pretty good week! Spanky is coming along well, baby steps with the rides but all the ground work we've done with him is coming out PHENOMENAL! I hope his owners are as happy when they get him back as I am right now.*

??????????????????????????????????

EDIT:Or maybe I misread it and Spanky and Sparky are 2 different horses. I'm a dingaling.
I am so confused. Because, yeah, all the posts about SPARKY say he is coming along SOOOO well. I no understand.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

I think Spanky is a clients horse, since he talks about his owner, and returning him. But there was no mention of even having a problem with this horse, until the day he popped on here to say how he had to euth him. So obviously, it was just the easy way out, so they didn't have to deal with a horse they were overfaced with. The story just keeps getting sadder and sadder.


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## Dusty1228 (Dec 2, 2010)

Yeah, I just wasn't sure, because even in his posts he seems a little goofy. As in obviously not prepared to be moving as fast as he is moving taking on projects and such. This whole thing is really getting to me. I need to go hug my horses.


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## HopalongCassidy (Dec 19, 2010)

wyominggrandma said:


> I really really hope you are kidding Hopalong, this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of. Have you ever seen the damage a single strand of barb wire will do to a horse? A 5 strand fence would probably end up with such horrific injuries it would have to be destroyed. I am curious, as Corinowalk asked, do you even own a horse? Have you ever owned a horse? I think you are a young girl that has watched too many horse movies and think a few pats and loves and the horse will be great. I would be scared to sell a horse to someone who thinks horses are stupid and once they run through a fence will never do it again.
> This whole thread is so sad, one horse was killed because the "trainer" who bought him was too macho to admit he made a mistake and killed a horse because he didn't want to give it a chance because he knew he could not train it successfully and seems he did not want to give it to someone else because maybe it might get around to others that he wasn't a good trainer and his "reputation" might be ruined.
> Then you Hopalong seems to think a 5 strand barb wire fence will teach a horse because they are stupid. Do you have any experience with horses at all? Do you even know where the OP lives? How would you have "tooken" him if he lived ten states away from you? I think you need to learn a bit more about horses and how they think and how they react before you own one.


First Wyominggrandma. I didn't say horse are stupid. I own three horses. We have a five strand barb-wire fence. Our horses never even attempted to go threw them. There just the out line of the field not threw it. Also Hopefully the horse wouldn't try going threw. With i doubt he would try. all i think that horse wanted was to be with the other horses. Also Wyoming. You don't now a lick about me or how much i know. A lot and i mean a lot of people still use barb-wire fences. Know if he runs into it himself i can't help that but doctor him up if possibly. And like i said before all he probably wanted was to be with the other horses. **** like i said i NEVER said horses where stupid. Yes i'm young. No i don't watch horses movies and think i know it all. nor do i pat pat your a nice horse and tamer then hell. Yes i ain't no trainer but i know a **** good trainer that would of helped.


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## HopalongCassidy (Dec 19, 2010)

corinowalk said:


> BARBED WIRE?! Are you F-ing kidding me?!?!?!?! You must be joking. Seriously. You have a problem with putting a horse to a DECENT death but have no problem letting an UNHANDLED stallion run through a 5 strand barbed wire fence?! WHICH HURTS MORE?!?!??!?!?!? You were outraged with this man putting this horse down, I am outraged at your SUGGESTION!
> 
> Go right on ahead and think that you could handle a horse like this. You will be the next one with a broken freaking neck! Try dressing wounds from 5 strands of barbed wire on a horse that is *ALREADY* aggressive.
> 
> Spence made a mistake. Yours will be bigger. You know why? Because you think with a sprinkle of sunshine and a pinch of smoochie-poos this horse would be putty in your hands. Have you ever even OWNED a horse?!??!


Barb-wire theres nothing wrong with it. I'd doubt he'd try going threw it. All that gelding probably wanted was to go with the other horses. I'd say why not let him be with them. **** right I've owned a horse I've owned 2 we've sold and three right know. And i can't say this more i think all he want was to be with the other horses.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Enjoy those vet bills. I bet you will be putting a horse down before long. Barbed wire is very very bad for horses. I cannot believe the stupidity you are showing by BRAGGING about keeping your horses. 

Being inexperienced and in over your head is one thing. Being inexperienced and ignorant like you are being is what gets horses killed. 

I cannot believe the display of ignorance you have put on here. I surely hope that you are the blowhard you seem to be. I pray that your horses don't get spooked into that fence.


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

HopalongCassidy said:


> Horses are stupid


You might wanna check for typos next time, cause you did say Horses are stupid.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

HopalongCassidy said:


> Barb-wire theres nothing wrong with it. I'd doubt he'd try going threw it. All that gelding probably wanted was to go with the other horses. I'd say why not let him be with them. **** right I've owned a horse I've owned 2 we've sold and three right know. And i can't say this more i think all he want was to be with the other horses.


Step away from the keyboard! I know you have been around five different horses so you are quite experienced but let me tell you that if a horse is aggitated enough it will go *through* a barbed-wire fence. It is also a common practice to seperate new horses from an established herd for a while particularly if one is a stallion. It is also not uncommon for a young stallion to jump fences and hurt itself or other horses.

also after looking at the pictures of the horse I wouldn't have wasted any time on it and I think the horse should have been shipped off for meat a long time ago.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Hopefully the horse wouldn't try to go through? That was a horse that had already proven he was willing to crash fencing in his pursuit of other horses. All it takes is once for the horse to be completely crippled and have to be put down. I have to agree with what WyomingGrandma posted.

Barbed wire injuries:




































I am by no means an anti-barbwire spokesman, shoot, we have barb wire around some of our pasture. HOWEVER, I am not under the mistaken assumption that it isn't dangerous and I do know that at attempt to use it for training purposes is just.........wow. There are certain instances, like mine, where people can get away with having barbed wire. All my horses are trained and gentle and they respect fencing of any kind, that was not the case with spence's horse.


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## HopalongCassidy (Dec 19, 2010)

HopalongCassidy said:


> Corino....... Haven't anyone heard of **** Barb-Wire. You put up five strands of that and the **** horse will only try to go threw that once until he finds out it ain't going to budge. and it hurts to try. Horses are stupid (I know you didn't say they were.) so if it hurts them the first time they won't do it again.
> 
> I didn't say re home him. I more or less said "GROW SOME BALLS" and work with the horse you bought. It takes about two/three weeks for the horse to get over it's soreness from being gelded did he give him that time I guess! (And if he did give him that long.) I'd of asked the vet out to check on the place where his manhood use to be maybe the vet F-up and hurt him more.
> 
> ...




I'm quoting what i said to Corino, cause a "Few" people got offensive about what i said. I See nothing wrong. Me i understand some people don't like barb-wire fences. Out in the woods and on top of a mountain i'd say barb-wries the best way to go. A lot of people around here has barb-wire fences. A lot of people still use them. I wasn't going to encourage the horse to run threw the barb-wire fence. But all i said is if he try/did he would learn not to. I didn't mean to I SEE I SAID HORSES ARE STUPID. I REALLY WHAT I MENT WAS HORSES AREN'T STUPID. SORRY FOR MAKING A MISTAKE ON MY SPELLING. (I caped it so everyone can read.) If i thought they where stupid why would i be on HF and why in the hell would i care if he killed that horse and why would i have horses of my own.


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## HopalongCassidy (Dec 19, 2010)

Katesrider011 said:


> You might wanna check for typos next time, cause you did say Horses are stupid.


Yes i did make a typo. It's expose to say horses aren't stupid. If i thought they where i wouldn't ride them. 

Thanks though for pointing that out.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Even better. I'm sure this horse learned his lesson about fencing :? :roll:.

The photo is very graphic so I will post a link instead of imbedding the pic.
Sheriff: Horse near West Amana killed by barbed wire | TheGazette


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## HopalongCassidy (Dec 19, 2010)

corinowalk said:


> Enjoy those vet bills. I bet you will be putting a horse down before long. Barbed wire is very very bad for horses. I cannot believe the stupidity you are showing by BRAGGING about keeping your horses.
> 
> Being inexperienced and in over your head is one thing. Being inexperienced and ignorant like you are being is what gets horses killed.
> 
> I cannot believe the display of ignorance you have put on here. I surely hope that you are the blowhard you seem to be. I pray that your horses don't get spooked into that fence.


Corino My horses now our land like the back of there head. They won't run into the fence. But i am convince by the picture i see that the barb-wire will be gone and just plain wire put up. Sorry i can't put wood or metal poles but wire will be the next thing. I may came off like a blowhard or ignorant but i am not.


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## HopalongCassidy (Dec 19, 2010)

Well i can say i didn't enjoy those picture. They made my heart fall. Wood isn't going to be a option so i think just plain wire will do. I didn't mean to upset anyone but i see i did. Also i read i came off like a blowhard and ignorant but i'm not. Just because i'm still learning doesn't mean everyone has to jump on my case. 

Yes i am still learning.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Hopalong, you are arguing that barbed wire would have been a good tool to use to teach this horse to respect fencing by comparing him to your horses. That's like comparing apples to elephants. The fact is, barbed wire would have been the _worst_ possible thing to have around that type of horse and to suggest it does show lack of knowledge and experience, hence.....ignorance on the subject.

Maybe you just didn't think it through, I don't know. But to have a fit about the horse being put down and then suggest that barbed wire fencing should have been used just flabbergasts me. With barbed wire, the horse would have likely suffered a catastrophic injury which would have required euthing anyway.


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## HopalongCassidy (Dec 19, 2010)

smrobs said:


> Hopalong, you are arguing that barbed wire would have been a good tool to use to teach this horse to respect fencing by comparing him to your horses. That's like comparing apples to elephants. The fact is, barbed wire would have been the _worst_ possible thing to have around that type of horse and to suggest it does show lack of knowledge and experience, hence.....ignorance on the subject.
> 
> Maybe you just didn't think it through, I don't know. But to have a fit about the horse being put down and then suggest that barbed wire fencing should have been used just flabbergasts me. With barbed wire, the horse would have likely suffered a catastrophic injury which would have required euthing anyway.



I wasn't trying to say barb-wire would be the answer. I didn't mean it that way though to some it came out like that. I was only thinking that if he did try it would. (I only thought about him getting poked. not a bad cut or anything. ) Help him know not to do it again. Though it probably would of did more yal are right on that part. As i was wanting to say was more of if he did try hopefully if he only got a few scratches that he wouldn't try it again. Like a electric fence most horse would only try it one and wouldn't do it again. That's what i was trying to say though it sounded like i'd let him do that and wouldn't care. I have three horses of my own and care a lot about them and want the best for them. 

(Well this really doesn't have anything to do with that horse)but i cried for three hours about my horses having a big lump on his side. I was afraid it was cancer and we had to put him down. All it was,was a little bite. 

I see i said the wrong thing. I was angry about everyone saying it was ok to put him down, but i understand why it might be there opinion.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I so badly want to put my 2 cents in here, but when I edit out all the profanity and adult language, there wasn't much left.

I'm just glad that I don't have to live with a decision like that, but then I wouldn't of made many of those decisions.

There is so much wrong here that I am so so angry that I can't get it down here.


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## Chardavej (Mar 13, 2011)

I don't know, I'm one of those of the opinion there are too many good horses needed homes that are in bad situations that there is no need to spend time on the bad ones.

Spence probably saved the horse from a fate worse than death, you all do not know either way. Could have been someone else that got him that couldn't handle him, became afraid and just put him out to pasture with no care.

Or he could have been bought by someone who beat the crap out of him and abused him badly to get him "broke". Creating more issues...

Or he could have been bought by a wonderful and patient trainer who brought him around and he would live happily ever after in hundreds of acres of grass, great trail rides and scratches on his favorite spots with lots of cookies.

You just don't know. I think there are worse things than death. We're the only ones that think of future, not animals, not horses.

I've watched a horse passed around for several years. I keep seeing her at different barns. Gorgeous as all get out, crazy as a loon. Been through several trainers, vet checks, saddle fitters...she would be fine for about 3 or 8 or 12 trail rides, then absolutely BLOW UP. Heck I watched her blow up just while we were sitting and taking a break. 

I would watch her in the pasture at the feedstalls, she would squeal, and slam her back hoof into the 6x6 post. Be quiet, SQUEAL, BANG! Over and over. No one around, horses could be with her or on the other side of the pasture. She would do other "odd" things. I think a bullet would have been best for her.

The thing is, you don't know HOW this horse would have turned out. What his future would be. I just don't think it was so horrible or wrong. We don't know how much time he had the horse, could have been a week, a month. I don't know. Don't really matter to me.

And to those saying if he had a child that was sick should it be killed? Are you seriously comparing a human to a horse? Really? That's the most absurd comparison I have ever heard!

I think the horse had a long line of people letting him down. I think the breeders or previous owners are just as much to blame for this horses future, or lack of.


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

Chardavej said:


> The thing is, you don't know HOW this horse would have turned out. What his future would be.


 
Exactly the point. In the right hands, this horse COULD HAVE became a normal, sane horse. Like you said, you just don't know. It could have had tons of potential, but ended up in the hands of some dimwit who thought he knew it all.


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

I don't think it's absurd to compare a horse to a human, unlike the majority of folks on here. A human is no more of a living creature than a horse. A human just has the luxury of being able to speak for itself.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Katesrider011 said:


> A human just has the luxury of being able to speak for itself.


Not quite true. Some of us have an ability to logically think about what we do or plan to do as well as about consequences. Which I don't think animals can do.


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

Kates, a horse may be just as living as a human, but speaking is nowhere near the only difference. Horses do NOT think like us, nor do we naturally think like them. It's just not how it is. We're different species, with different instincts and different mental set-ups. It IS absurd to compare a horse (or just about any animal) to a human. Period.
-ETA- Posted the same time as Kitten. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

Good for yalls opinions. I disagree and that's as far as I'm going. I'm so sorry if that makes me unreal.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Katesrider011 said:


> Good for yalls opinions. I disagree and that's as far as I'm going. I'm so sorry if that makes me unreal.


Kates, I don't argue with you at all. If _you _just "have the luxury of being able to speak for yourself" that's fine with me. I'm just saying not _everyone _is like that. :lol:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Chardavej said:


> I don't know, I'm one of those of the opinion there are too many good horses needed homes that are in bad situations that there is no need to spend time on the bad ones.
> 
> Spence probably saved the horse from a fate worse than death, you all do not know either way. Could have been someone else that got him that couldn't handle him, became afraid and just put him out to pasture with no care.


The trouble is on that theory I may as well go out and shoot 2 day old Wombat now, to save him from a fate worse than death!

I actually totally agree 100% that there are so many good horses needing homes that we should euthanize the renegades, horses who are proven dangerous, no issue, off they go.

The issue that I'm having here is seeing anything in what has been reported that made that particular horse a candidate to be shot (or whatever) The whole thing is just crazy as anything, especially spending good money on a gelding procedure and not giving the thing a chance to work, I just do not get it.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

2 weeks. Going by the dates on his facebook, that's how long they had him. And he'd been gelded less time than that. Sometime after the 17th of April. He hadn't even had time to completely heal from the surgery, much less be over his hormones...


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

Just a question, but I was under the knowledge that people who buy project horses normally re-train/train the horse -before- they put it up for sale? I would definitely not go looking for a broke horse and take the time to look at one that hasn't even been trained yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gallop On (May 1, 2011)

Wow, this is really wrong. To put down a horse that hasnt been trained any manners!? If you knew he was still a stallion and you had little experience with Stallions then why in the world did you buy him! Just because my horse bucks me off and rears and bolts on me doesnt mean I am going to give up, it means I am going to try harder to make him into a good horse. And if I feel I cant do it, or if I see I am failing then would I find him a home or send him to a rescue. Your Wife was looking for a project horse to train then sell, right? Well, so when you get a troubled horse that YOU cant train then you kill them! Thats what you did, you KILLED an animal, a HORSE! This makes me pretty mad... That just because YOU cant train him and deal with him that you should KILL him! This is way wrong, wrong to the extreme.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Iseul said:


> Just a question, but I was under the knowledge that people who buy project horses normally re-train/train the horse -before- they put it up for sale?


Of course they do. And even those farms doing re-sell of the good horses first do pretty deep evaluation of the level of training and abilities of the horse before it goes on sale.


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

Exactly (not keen on quoting while not on the computer), so then why would he put the horse up for sale, with almost nothing but paying for it to be gelded done? I don't see the sense in it, and I sure wouldn't even think about going to see a possible purchase that has barely been touched, but already up for sale with not even a description of how it is/acts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spence (Nov 8, 2009)

Ok, so since I am NOT a troll here, you all will get a few answers since you've decided to dig further into my personal life. We had not had him very long, middle of last month was when we got him. 

Perhaps we did make a rash decision, however I still do not feel it was the wrong one. He went after Spanky and I told my wife to help me find another solution and we won't put him down. We talked for a good hour about it and that was the solution we came to. I made this post in the FIRST place because I was aggravated because we felt that was the best choice we had at the time. Call me full of crap, but that was NOT the solution I wanted.

Part of the reason for the choice we made? My wife is pregnant, and we did NOT plan on that much of a chore. She's a wonder with a horse on the ground. No, she hasn't been at it that long, however she's a lot better than a lot of people around, especially here. It still doesn't mean that I'M willing to risk our kid for any sum of extra money.

We live in a rural area. There are not many trainers here, and frankly, I haven't seen any that impress me, or have I heard good things about any of them. I'll probably continue to get flamed by you all for this, however look at all the things that are said even on this forum about "well, look at this clinician, he's such a knuckle head who knows nothing" or "this trainer is so full of crap it's not even funny." Yes, I was an adult when I bought my first horse, and while the things I have learned have been influenced by at least one big trainer, I've learned most of what I know by DOING, nothing more or less. 

The horse market here is crap, just the same as anywhere. Wife put him on the FB page for sale not long after we got him because she started to think she'd gotten more than she bargained for. Do you really think a rescue in the midwest is interested in the kind of horse we had? They're full, and there are plenty of other already well mannnered horses. While, yes, we were not prepared for what we got, I also was not about to just pawn this horse off on the first person to show up with money. How long WOULD it have taken us to find someone who was willing and prepared to take on our "ooops"? 

Again, I posted this in the first place because I was frustrated because of the choice we felt we had to make. Had I thought about it a little harder I'd have kept my mouth shut, and that would be oops #2.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

spence said:


> Call me full of crap


No problem with that anyway


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Katesrider011 said:


> I don't think it's absurd to compare a horse to a human, unlike the majority of folks on here. A human is no more of a living creature than a horse. A human just has the luxury of being able to speak for itself.


 
Comparing a human child to a horse is a HUGE mistake in my eyes.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

What I find interesting Spence, if you had pawned this horse off to the first person who had money, then maybe he would still be alive.
I went back over all your posts in different threads and the more I read the more I became totally sure you have blown yourself up as a big trainer with so much knowledge and you probably don't know half as much as you think you do.
I read where you commented that most all of your fencing was barb wire, but was trying to replace it with any type of wire you can get for free. Lots of advice about bits and trucks and stuff like that, but not much actual knowledge. I also found the comment you made to ME when I showed my new trailer I had just brought home and the comment went something like" I wish I could afford something like that, I could buy my wife a new car for that amount of money". A tacky comment at best.
You no more tried to find this horse a home , or someone who might take it from you. You said" we didn't mind losing the money" so why not GIVE the horse to someone, someone more capable than you. You have said that there are not many trainers in your rural area and frankly none that impress you. Quite a comment on how you see yourself. You are definately puffed up in your abilities to train a horse. You knew your wife was pregnant, yet you still bought a horse that was untrained and a stud. 
You can make all the excuses you want to make yourself feel like a big man, but you failed as a trainer. You took a horse that you had no business taking on, brought it to a place that you had no place to keep it, gelded it, barely gave it a chance to heal from gelding and decided it would not make you money, so you destroyed it. I still haven't heard the answer to did you actually have a vet out or did you save even more money and shoot him? I would hope this has taught you and your wife that you are not real trainers, you are just another couple of self proclaimed "trainers" who figure they can make money off horses and unsuspecting people who think you are trainers. I hope for the sake of anybody around you who have horses for sale, that you don't go get another project horse for your pregnant wife or for yourself, they will probably end up dead also.


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## Whisper22 (Jan 2, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> What I find interesting Spence, if you had pawned this horse off to the first person who had money, then maybe he would still be alive.
> I went back over all your posts in different threads and the more I read the more I became totally sure you have blown yourself up as a big trainer with so much knowledge and you probably don't know half as much as you think you do.
> I read where you commented that most all of your fencing was barb wire, but was trying to replace it with any type of wire you can get for free. Lots of advice about bits and trucks and stuff like that, but not much actual knowledge. I also found the comment you made to ME when I showed my new trailer I had just brought home and the comment went something like" I wish I could afford something like that, I could buy my wife a new car for that amount of money". A tacky comment at best.
> You no more tried to find this horse a home , or someone who might take it from you. You said" we didn't mind losing the money" so why not GIVE the horse to someone, someone more capable than you. You have said that there are not many trainers in your rural area and frankly none that impress you. Quite a comment on how you see yourself. You are definately puffed up in your abilities to train a horse. You knew your wife was pregnant, yet you still bought a horse that was untrained and a stud.
> You can make all the excuses you want to make yourself feel like a big man, but you failed as a trainer. You took a horse that you had no business taking on, brought it to a place that you had no place to keep it, gelded it, barely gave it a chance to heal from gelding and decided it would not make you money, so you destroyed it. I still haven't heard the answer to did you actually have a vet out or did you save even more money and shoot him? I would hope this has taught you and your wife that you are not real trainers, you are just another couple of self proclaimed "trainers" who figure they can make money off horses and unsuspecting people who think you are trainers. I hope for the sake of anybody around you who have horses for sale, that you don't go get another project horse for your pregnant wife or for yourself, they will probably end up dead also.


This is perfect. My thoughts exactly.


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## Cinder (Feb 20, 2011)

> Part of the reason for the choice we made? My wife is pregnant, and we did NOT plan on that much of a chore. She's a wonder with a horse on the ground. No, she hasn't been at it that long, however she's a lot better than a lot of people around, especially here. It still doesn't mean that I'M willing to risk our kid for any sum of extra money.


THEN WHY DID YOU GET A *PROJECT *HORSE? Chore and project are practically SYNONYMS, for heavens sake. 

*Deep cleansing breaths*. 



> I've learned most of what I know by DOING, nothing more or less.


.....
Spence, do me a favor and do some RESEARCH on horses, like you should've before beginning this whole mess. Take some riding lessons, SOMETHING. I honestly think that will help you. 
Horse behavior - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Horse Behaviour
Basic Horse Care Information and Guidelines

I don't want to be insulting but if you haven't done any research I think there may be a few key things you are doing wrong without even knowing it. I still make mistakes and I basically know what I should be doing...sometimes :lol:. 

I don't think you're a troll, just someone who overstimated themself and underestimated a horse- which could've been a deadly mistake for you. 

Understand. Learn. Move on.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

spence said:


> Ok, so since I am NOT a troll here, you all will get a few answers since you've decided to dig further into my personal life. We had not had him very long, middle of last month was when we got him.
> 
> Perhaps we did make a rash decision, however I still do not feel it was the wrong one. He went after Spanky and I told my wife to help me find another solution and we won't put him down. We talked for a good hour about it and that was the solution we came to. I made this post in the FIRST place because I was aggravated because we felt that was the best choice we had at the time. Call me full of crap, but that was NOT the solution I wanted.
> 
> ...


I've yet to see anything that justifies putting him down. The fact that your wife is pregnant should have been the reason NOT TO BUY AN UNHANDLED STUD IN THE FIRST PLACE. 

As to how long it would have taken to re-home him...who knows since you didn't even try. 

Yes in general the horse market is ****. However if you do things right the market is still good. I don't have an empty stall and have a waiting list for both training and horses for sale. The reason for that, consideration in both my breeding program and purchasing projects. I have rehabbed several rank studs, but that being said (with almost 20 years of training experience) I would have passed on him and I KNOW I could have given him a great shot at being turned around. If you are serious about being a trainer and making money turning around project horses, please in the future use a lot more discretion when purchasing. Mistakes like this one will travel like wildfire and I'm afraid you will find yourself out of business before business even gets started.


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## HorseLover123 (Sep 28, 2008)

Honestly, I have read through just about all of the posts on this thread :shock: 
Yes, he made a mistake, but it's too late now. What's done is done, perhaps the horse probably could have been helped with time and patience but we'll never know.
I myself am quite upset about a 4 year old being put down, and so are others. But it's done now, there is nothing anyone can do.


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

I'm just gonna have to step away from this thread for a while because I'm getting more ****ed off by the minute. What an idiot.


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

corinowalk said:


> Comparing a human child to a horse is a HUGE mistake in my eyes.


Im sorry you feel that way. I don't and I'll leave it at that.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

And before I step away from this thread for good, I will let you know that you feel that way because you do not have children of your own. I do. To compare a horse to a child is very demeaning in my eyes.


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

corinowalk said:


> And before I step away from this thread for good, I will let you know that you feel that way because you do not have children of your own. I do. To compare a horse to a child is very demeaning in my eyes.


I wasnt trying to offend you. I just dont want kids, I like horses more. I just dont feel the same way towards kids. Im happy for you having kids of your own to love and take care of.


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## BarrelRacer86 (Jul 6, 2010)

Who would buy their pregnant wife any type of project horse? That's just stupid all over. My 2 year old filly that's always been handled can still be dangerous when she's full of herself. Let alone an untrained unhandled stud
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

The more you post Spence, the more you cement my opinion of you.

You are completely unwilling to learn, completely unwilling to admit that you screwed up big time.

The fact that you bought your pregnant wife a project horse at all, let alone an untrained, young stallion, tells me all I will ever need to know about you.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

spence said:


> There are not many trainers here, and frankly, I haven't seen any that impress me, or have I heard good things about any of them.


And I am certain, if asked, they would all say exactly the same about you. And I believe they would be right...


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Katesrider011 said:


> I wasnt trying to offend you. I just dont want kids, I like horses more. I just dont feel the same way towards kids. Im happy for you having kids of your own to love and take care of.


That would be a good thing. If you did have kids, you would KNOW the difference. I love my horses, but no comparison to my kids or hubby, for that matter. 

Hopalong-get off the forum and go back to school. You have an awful lot to learn, start with grammar and spelling with a side of horses.

As someone who has owned one dangerous horse, as well as tried to "sell" one that was just too much for me.......well, that one took me 6 months of $500/mo board to finally GIVE away-just to get off the payroll - AND he was totally broke, just liked to "happy buck" after fences. So to all of you who are all rainbows and roses over being able to rehome this horse-good luck. There are just too many out there. And IMO, as "not nice" as this situation was-it is better than a truck to slaughter, which is likely where he would have ended up. Perhaps Spence shouldn't call himself a "trainer". Hard to say. None of us know him, nor have we ever seen him or his wife work with any horse. Not likeing something he posted on the internet (and again only knowing what we have been told, so heresay)-hardly a reason to go to his website and try and ruin his business. 
WOW is all I can say about this whole thing and some of the opinions expressed here. Sorry, but after reading ALL of this-I think this has turned into a bit of a feeding frenzy.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Frank, I think I love you. *laugh*


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## spence (Nov 8, 2009)

HorseLover123 said:


> Honestly, I have read through just about all of the posts on this thread :shock:
> Yes, he made a mistake, but it's too late now. What's done is done, perhaps the horse probably could have been helped with time and patience but we'll never know.
> I myself am quite upset about a 4 year old being put down, and so are others. But it's done now, there is nothing anyone can do.


This sums it up pretty well. I have nothing more to say here.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

franknbeans said:


> That would be a good thing. If you did have kids, you would KNOW the difference. I love my horses, but no comparison to my kids or hubby, for that matter.
> 
> Hopalong-get off the forum and go back to school. You have an awful lot to learn, start with grammar and spelling with a side of horses.
> 
> ...


In 200+ posts on this thread this is one of the very few that I agree with. I just sold four young horses for very little money because I didn't have room for them. They had nothing wrong with them and were actually quite nice horses. A horse that is labeled as aggressive or even hard to handle would be impossible to "rehome". I would have put him on a truck to Canada but that's just me.


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## lildonkey8 (Dec 12, 2010)

spence said:


> My wife is pregnant, and we did NOT plan on that much of a chore.


Wow, you didn't think a stud would be a big chore...:shock::shock::shock:? 
You've left me speechless.
You'd better look into buying in the first place.
I'll keep my mouth shut. I just hope the admin comes on soon and closes this freaking thread


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Corino-:hug:

Kevin-what is really hard to swallow is that mine sold for $15K 6 mo after I gave him away. I am happy he is in a great home, and have comforted myself that at least I can pick 'em! Maybe not ride all of them anymore, but I still have an eye for good ones! lol:wink:


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## beauforever23 (May 6, 2010)

I just finished reading through the rest of this thread. All I can say is wow. 

R.I.P. 4 year old gelding.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Spence, I will tell you one thing. The #1 reason you are getting flamed here is your attitude towards the whole thing. No one can tell you how to feel, that is for sure. But when you are posting on a board about having to put a horse to sleep...for any reason...it is in poor taste to do so with such a 'meh, who cares!" attitude. 

Your attitude doesn't change the facts. As we have all said round and round on this thread (20+ pages now) some folks think you should have tried harder and I can't help but think that myself. Then again, I wasn't there and neither were the rest of us. I just hope you take your lesson from this and don't make this particular mistake again.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

None of us were there. Some say they understand why Spence killed the horse because it was dangerous. The majority say its sad a 4 year old had to die for Spence's stupidity for buying this horse since its obvious he does not have the knowledge to train an unbroke stud, oh wait, the 4 yr old unbroke stud was for his pregnant wife.
What I will say, after seeing his other posts( I went back and checked all of them myself)and reading some of the stuff he is posted, after reading his callous attitude and his "my mistake, oops my bad "comment and really sounding ridiculous after his post as to WHY he bought the horse, I am coming to the conclusion that it is too bad we couldn't have asked the horse his side of this.... Maybe the horse was not dangerous after all, since we only have Spence's take on that, maybe, just maybe he realized how unknowledgeable he really is and instead of admitting his mistake and that couldn't handle this horse and since he already posted that ALL the trainers around him, in his opinion are no good, maybe he didn't want to step off his pedestal that he has put himself on and take the horse back or give it away and then his clients and anyone else that knows him might realize he doesn't know squat.
I stand by my opinion, a young horse died needlessly because the person who bought him was not capable of training him.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> As someone who has owned one dangerous horse, as well as tried to "sell" one that was just too much for me.......well, that one took me 6 months of $500/mo board to finally GIVE away-just to get off the payroll - AND he was totally broke, just liked to "happy buck" after fences. So to all of you who are all rainbows and roses over being able to rehome this horse-good luck. There are just too many out there. And IMO, as "not nice" as this situation was-it is better than a truck to slaughter, which is likely where he would have ended up. Perhaps Spence shouldn't call himself a "trainer". Hard to say. None of us know him, nor have we ever seen him or his wife work with any horse. Not likeing something he posted on the internet (and again only knowing what we have been told, so heresay)-hardly a reason to go to his website and try and ruin his business.
> WOW is all I can say about this whole thing and some of the opinions expressed here. Sorry, but after reading ALL of this-I think this has turned into a bit of a feeding frenzy.


Franknbeans he deserves the feeding frenzy, he put it out there on the internet, and so he gets opinions - he could have kept his mouth shut and none of us would have known about it - his problem, his decision, his choice. He gets what he gets. 

Of course the horse would not have been easy or even possible to rehome, but as he paid for it, I imagine within the 2 weeks it took to kill it, the original owner would have taken it back - they just got free sale money. If not, it's his responsibility, and running through a fence, likely a barbed wire one from his photos on FB and earlier comment here - either means that his pee poor fencing caused the horses death or his ignorance, either way it's his error. And I hope Karma exists. 

He deserves to not be training horses, even the newest of horse owners know not to take a stallion. 



Am off to find out where I can review him online and link to this thread, his prospective clients have a right to know how little knowledge they are dealing with. 

I posted on his FB page, and it was gone in minutes, so the 3 messages we have here are a dip in the water to what is being read and not responded to.


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## Dusty1228 (Dec 2, 2010)

spence said:


> Ok, so since I am NOT a troll here, you all will get a few answers since you've decided to dig further into my personal life. We had not had him very long, middle of last month was when we got him.
> 
> Perhaps we did make a rash decision, however I still do not feel it was the wrong one. He went after Spanky and I told my wife to help me find another solution and we won't put him down. We talked for a good hour about it and that was the solution we came to. I made this post in the FIRST place because I was aggravated because we felt that was the best choice we had at the time. Call me full of crap, but that was NOT the solution I wanted.
> 
> ...


Ok, I'm done being a nice guy, since this thread will be discontinued soon, anyhow.
First of, You're wrong.
You sat down and talked a 'good hour' before you came to this conclusion. AN HOUR! Woaaaaahhhh! That took a lot of your precious time, there Spence and I can't believe how trying that hour must have been for you, you poor baby.
Maybe you should have talked for 'a good hour' before you got the poor horse!
You buy a PROJECT horse for your PREGNANT wife and when he turns out to be a PROJECT you KILL HIM.
You didn't plan on THAT much of a chore? Really? I thought you wanted a project horse. What EXACTLY were you looking for? 
If you weren't willing to risk your kid, you shouldn't have been looking for a PROJECT horse for your PREGNANT wife.
Do you even know what 'project horse' means? Obviously not, since you bought an unhandled, ungelded horse and killed him because he would take time, effort and money.

Just for the record, I am angry now. I know your website, what it says, what your claims are and what your plans are. I will definitely keep up to date on this, and do my damnedest to make sure that EVERYONE knows what a complete lack of knowledge you have about horses, in general. Because anyone who sends their horses to you has a right to know exactly what kind of person you are.

To anyone who disagrees with me, I send my apologies, but I have been keeping up with this thread since day one, and every time Spence opens his great maw of a ridiculous mouth he ends up falling in. This is ridiculous and he is a stain on the world of horsemanship.

Me? I am not a trainer. I am a freaking no body, who sometimes works people's horses for them when they have problems. I claim nothing, I know even less and my ONLY saving grace is that I have a natural way with animals. If any of you have kept up with any of MY posts, you know I'm having a hard enough time dealing with MY OWN problem child, and I fully admit it. But, I will help others when they ask, that doesn't make me a trainer. That doesn't make me ANYTHING, just a horse lover. So maybe my side of this will come off mean and unknowledgable. Personally? I don't care.

You're oops, Spence, is that you portray yourself as anything other than someone who owns horses. You're not a trainer, you're not a horseman, you're someone who has maybe had a good run of luck with some not so mannered horses. That's IT.
You don't need a project horse. You need a freaking reality check.
I am also praying for karmic backlash and / or the threefold law. I hope one of your horses kicks you.
Rant Over.
Have a nice freaking day!:-x


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## Dusty1228 (Dec 2, 2010)

Oh, P.S. Way to fix your facebook page and your website does not seem to be working anymore. Coincidence? I think not.


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## Clevelande (Apr 27, 2011)

This really is just awful. You should bring in a horse that you don't know much about. 1) gelded or no, a horse is going to act 'decent enough' in it's known habitat. 2) If you don't know much about a stud you should do your research 3) How the heck would you feel if you were in your teens, quickly torn from somewhere you're comfortable, have your man parts torn off, and then stuck in a room to sort it out on your own? 4) From what it sounds like, if you have your own horses AND client horses you didn't even have the time to help this poor horse work through anything! 

This poor horse never had a chance! His fate was sealed the minute you set eyes on him...


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Spence, I mistakenly said previously that you are a new dad, my bad, your wife is newly pregnant. 

As a foster parent, I would like to ask how you will cope with an out of control teenager? Most parents face this, many can cope, will you?


As you are a fair few miles from me, I assume that I do not need to keep a bed open for him.


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## Clevelande (Apr 27, 2011)

What makes me upset, other than your blatant ignorance and uncaring attitude when it comes to a horse that you originally wanted to 'help', is that in the past year, I had a very close friend have put down her almost 40 year old horse because it had cushings along with other problems. She gave it the medicine it needed when it needed it. Took it to the vet. When it was a young, unruly horse she got it training. It was the hardest thing in the world for her to do! 
Yet for a horse you wanted to help, you quickly give up and killed it. No remorse, and you seem to think you had a viable reason! The things people make up in their heads...

I can tell you, I have a four year old son who has found a love for horses! The horse I am working with is not a safe horse. So, instead of taking in and buying that horse, I work with him away from my son, with a professional trainer. If the horse doesn't work out for me, I will not buy him, and I will not try and work with him. I do not, and would not, ever let my son close to him!

You not only brought this horse into your home, endangering yourself, and your pregnant wife and child, but then but it down for it's own natural behavior! This is human error killing the innocent. We see it everywhere, and it's wrong! We see it in track horses be slaughtered. In shelter dogs being euthanized, and know that it is wrong. But you are reasoning that the horse was to forever be dangerous, just to clean your own mind.

You did WRONG!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

HorseLover123 said:


> Yes, he made a mistake, but it's too late now. What's done is done, perhaps the horse probably could have been helped with time and patience but we'll never know.


It's not so much about mistake or putting it down (frankly I do NOT believe it's so easy to find a home for a horse like that even for FREE, I see free horses on my local forum all the time, but didn't notice people jump in taking them). It's about claiming yourself being a trainer dealing with problem horses and then just putting it down without even a real try. That's just wrong, plain wrong, and IMHO the rip-off to the potential clients.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Wonderful post Franknbeans!!!!!





xtwilightx said:


> I personally think a horse is a reflection of you .. whatever you put into it you get out of it


Love the rainbows and butterflies approach to life.

Horses are living breathing creatures. It would be nice to think that every horse we put work into comes out great because we took the effort to make them that way.
Frequently the horse's theories are different than ours and that simply is not how it works.

Like everything else in life that has the ability to make their own thoughts; there are bad horses. No amount of butterflies and rainbows will change that.

(Not saying this horse was or was not one of those horses, just saying that the theory that any horse is fixable is not accurate.)




VelvetsAB said:


> Guys....just because someone is a trainer doesn't mean they know EVERYTHING. It takes time and mistakes to learn how to be a good trainer. Even experts probably made and STILL make mistakes. No one is perfect, so why do you expect someone else to be perfect?


Great post, Velvet.



MacabreMikolaj said:


> Yeah I can see the point, the post itself was a little odd, not sure why someone would post this on a horse lovers forum and expect a good response. I think I'm just personally a little surprised how people are taking it.
> 
> At the end of the day, the horse died a humane death. It really doesn't matter why to me, as long as he wasn't abused or neglected. I guess it boils down to personal opinion and preference though. A lot of people would be outraged if I put a young horse down with a relatively simple injury, but if I don't have resources to heal it, the kindest thing is death.
> 
> I understand it's the mentality that has people so irked, but is it really helping anyone to get so worked up over it?


Great post, MM.



AlexS said:


> Spence just had a child


Let's twist your logic in another direction.
When Spence does have his kid. 
If he had kept this horse (and it was still being unmanageable and able to break out, and no free home had come along yet) and his toddler managed to get killed by it, would you be jumping up and down at Spence for having a dangerous horse around that he should not have had because he has a baby?


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

I know for me, and for many others, the issue is not that he euthed a dangerous horse (if that is the case).

The issue is that he took the horse on in the first place.


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## HopalongCassidy (Dec 19, 2010)

apachiedragon said:


> 2 weeks. Going by the dates on his facebook, that's how long they had him. And he'd been gelded less time than that. Sometime after the 17th of April. He hadn't even had time to completely heal from the surgery, much less be over his hormones...


This really explains it all. Or so i think.


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## Cinder (Feb 20, 2011)

> Let's twist your logic in another direction.
> When Spence does have his kid.
> If he had kept this horse (and it was still being unmanageable and able to break out, and no free home had come along yet) and his toddler managed to get killed by it, would you be jumping up and down at Spence for having a dangerous horse around that he should not have had because he has a baby?


Should he have had an untrained Stud around his pregnant wife, AB? 



> Love the rainbows and butterflies approach to life.


What the user said is not always the case but has a bit of truth to it. No pain no gain. He got a PROJECT horse thinking it would be an easy turnaround. He was sadly mistaken.




> Like everything else in life that has the ability to make their own thoughts; there are bad horses. No amount of butterflies and rainbows will change that. (Not saying this horse was or was not one of those horses, just saying that the theory that any horse is fixable is not accurate.)


We don't know because after this horse acted like even the best horse would act in his situation (as an untrained, recently gelded horse in a new situation), he was euthed. And no amount of rainbows and butterflies can change _that._

On another note, I'm surprised a mod hasn't locked this thread yet.

EDIT:


> I know for me, and for many others, the issue is not that he euthed a dangerous horse (if that is the case).
> 
> The issue is that he took the horse on in the first place.


That is a HUGE part of it, thank you.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I do think all of us gave the opinions already and the thread seems to be going in circles. With that being said I'm closing it.


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