# Why do I feel so clueless?



## Paradise (Jun 28, 2012)

In this case I think the best thing you can do is just keep doing your own thing. Don't take it to heart.

The trainer really had no business telling you you need lessons, but all you need to say is "thanks for the offer, I'll consider it."

You can't change some people, and you'll run into people you don't agree with for the rest of your life. All you can do is move on. If what you do works for you and your horse, keep at it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QuietHeartHorses (Jul 31, 2012)

princessfluffybritches said:


> I just really don't think I'm doing any harm without the lessons. I feel like I'm doing just fine by myself and getting what I ask for with a horse. Just by listening to the horse, and the horse listen to me.


This is exactly how I feel when it comes to my horse. I used to take lessons with him, but it's been a while. I know they are valuable, but I get really anxious and I feel like I ride _worse_ during a lesson. When it's just me and my horse, I feel fine. I can think clearly, I can read his body language, and everything is a lot less stressful. Lately, if I have an issue or need some advice, I read books or articles on the topic, or talk to my BO about it. 

I'm not trying to train a world class horse by myself or anything, I just want to keep my horse in shape and maintain a happy, harmonious partnership with him. No lessons required for that.


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## Cielo Notturno (Sep 12, 2013)

Whilst I think that _every_ rider could improve with the right trainer, I also think that no trainer at all is better than a bad trainer. 

If you are doing well with your horse, I don't see why you "should" take lessons with a riding instructor that you probably don't like.


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## princessfluffybritches (Aug 10, 2012)

I think it was done for drama. If you're on a horse, and her back feels relaxed, and she's not fighting you, but tests you, does this sound like the horse is going to bolt??? I got on her because I realized that she only bolts with her current owner because they get into a battle where the girl is almost punishing with the reins. I would bolt too. The horse has been refusing jumps with her probably because of the battle with the reins on the other side of the jump. 

I love Thorobreds. I like the sensitivity and their honest reactions. You can't fight them. I think on a bolting fighting horse, it's best to just keep them walking and softening and ask them for some figures, and using the same aids so they trust your communication, and not fight . If they toss their head and fight the rein, I just become a lump of clay and set my hands on the saddle so they can just fight themselves until they realize that you're not reacting to their temper tantrum. 

I have many faults like any rider. But I've always prided myself in being able to get on any horse and let them decide not to fight or bolt because all I want is relaxation and trust. And I won't be dragged into a fight. 

I think this instructor wants me to ***** foot around the horse so I don't set her off. That's not riding. "Don't put your legs on her or she'll bolt" is not riding. Horse should be comfortable feeling my legs right there. 

I guess I'm running on here because I want to explain myself to people that can understand what I do, and see that the horse is improving and relaxing , and testing me less and less.


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## Paradise (Jun 28, 2012)

I wouldn't doubt you are a good rider OP but unfortunately this is a two way street.

The horse's owner and trainer probably don't want to see or hear you say how much better you are for the horse, no more than you appreciate that trainer telling you that you need lessons.

Maybe you are the best rider that horseeever had but truth is it isn't your horse and its not really in your place to step in and offer advice where it clearly isn't wanted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

Sometimes a trainer's comments can be polluted by their own insecurities. I've certainly been at the tail end of that myself. It's not fun. Since it's not your horse, the simplest solution is to not ride it anymore.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Did I miss something? I didn't read that she offered anyone advice.


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## princessfluffybritches (Aug 10, 2012)

Paradise said:


> I wouldn't doubt you are a good rider OP but unfortunately this is a two way street.
> 
> The horse's owner and trainer probably don't want to see or hear you say how much better you are for the horse, no more than you appreciate that trainer telling you that you need lessons.
> 
> ...


Paradise, I don't say anything to anybody except thankyou. The girl/owner knew I just wanted to ride the horse for a few minutes. She's selling her because she doesn't ride her enough. I thanked her profusely for letting me, and it was never to show anyone how much better I am. I just wanted to see the horse's response to me- as a learning experience. For me privately.

I never gave any advice. The trainer/BO just came jumping into the ring and said the horse was getting ready to bolt away with me. I don't think that's true. The BO was the only one giving advice. I just did what she said. I'm not going to get into it over someone else's horse. 

And being at someone's barn, I don't give advice, and the only feedback other riders get from me is complimenting something they did.

Frlsgirl, you bring up a very interesting point. If this trainer/BO has been working with this girl and this horse for 2 years and she still bolts away with this girl, but only when the trainer is not there. So this trainer may need to see everyone have a problem without her. 

Maybe this woman needs students dependent on her. :think:


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Sounds like the trainer was ticked because you are not under her tutelage but you had the horse going fine. Sour grapes, just squish 'em in her face and find a different coach when you decide to get one.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

That trainer may not want to see anyone ride the horse successfully, cause it would hurt her business (maybe she though you would take her students?) 

Or, the trainer may not be very experienced, and thinks that the only reason a horse drops it's head is to buck or rip the reins out of the riders hands and bolt. I mean, that trainer may have totallly mis-interpreted what she was seeing when you were riding. She may have honestly been worried for your safety, and become anxious. 

Which may be the whole problem with the current owner, if she is being taught to overreact and "correct" the horse just when he is getting soft, that could really be messing with the horse's brain and the confusing messages he is getting is causing him to bolt. 

Just try not to take it personally, cause it sounds like they are the ones with the issues :wink:


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

princessfluffybritches said:


> Maybe this trainer is being melodramatic. If she couldn't teach a rider to not let her horse bolt off in 2 years, maybe she just didn't want me accomplishing anything without her input and in front of a group of people who board there.


I'd lay odds that this is probably pretty close to accurate. She's not much of a trainer if she's been trying (and _failing_) to correct a bolting issue for 2 years :shock:.

Just going from what you've said, I likely would never let her handle one of my horses.


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## princessfluffybritches (Aug 10, 2012)

The lady is 58, and years ago she competed with jumping all over the country. Since that time, has most likely given lessons and trained horses. I wonder when her last lesson was. I'm not an instructor so I'm not trying to take over anything.

I think the bolting has developed over the past year or so.
I think with her 40 plus years of experience, she should know what softening a horse looks like. She said that you don't ride a jumper that way (?). Oh well. 

I'm happy with the way my horse and I communicate, and my gf has a really good eye and knows what she's talking about when it comes to gaited horses, and she tweaks me every month or so. But it's more like "you're leaning", or "slow down", "stop looking down". Stuff we all need reminding of.

I think with the owner of and the horse, they both seem to me to have a very big chunk of education missing. And the girl gets frustrated. I've gone as far as to say I'd pay for 6 dressage lessons (I like her). But she's selling the horse. I've never given her advice in riding aside from improving communication. 

Thanks for the input. It's helped me see things for what they are. I see now that there is nothing wrong with me (ha ha) and after all the years of my riding, I can certainly see that I can ride a horse nicely without an instructor standing there.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I wonder how successful her students are...I am not against lessons at all, but I have found that it really pays to make sure I am getting lessons from someone that has successful students! 

Who wants to pay good money to an instructor that can't instruct? I agree, two years is way too long to still have a bolting problem. 

I think the instructor and the owner are both afaid of the horse.


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## princessfluffybritches (Aug 10, 2012)

The dressage instructor is someone who comes weekly to give a few lessons.

It may have gotten to the point where neither trusts the horse. I think a good trainer would have backed up and established communication between the two. I think of that is a telephone call. But both horse and rider scream into the phone or hang up, LOL. Horse and rider should have learned how to communicate with eachother prior to jumping.

I don't say anything. I think they are all dependent on the instructor/BO and the missing block of education is what keeps them dependent. You think?

Seems the horse is a good jumper and the girl is a good jumper, but if they can't communicate, where does that leave them?


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## princessfluffybritches (Aug 10, 2012)

New dilemma , same trainer.
My gf's daughter wants to show my gaited horse at a schooling show in 2 weeks. Not a problem. The trainer said she'd help her. I thought well, I'll stay out of it. Trainer says she knows gaited horses. So the trainer gets in the ring with the girl, and it's been a long time since I've seen my horse go around with her nose in the air and a stiff neck. It was hideous. After 10 minutes, the trainer went into the house because she had a headache. 

I did say I wouldn't get involved. Well you know how long that lasted. The girl rides really well on other horses. She rode my horse months ago and she had my horse nice and soft. 

The trainer kept telling her to "bump" her back (?). I don't think my horse bumps very well. 

After trainer was gone, I said you want a nod. No nod, no flatwalk. Nod and ears flopping is the best flatwalk. Then I showed her how to soften the horse's neck and get her face more vertical. (I call it romancing the reins.) Okay, she got that. Next step is to get the soft, then use your seat and legs to keep her on the bit and in frame. The girl got to where she understood what it felt like when it was right. 

So now I don't know if I should stay out of it or not. Maybe I'll just tell her mother (my friend) what to say to her daughter. 

If you don't want to rock the boat at a boarding place, what should I do?


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## thetempest89 (Aug 18, 2013)

> If you don't want to rock the boat at a boarding place, what should I do?


Don't talk to anyone, ever!!!! 

lol it's the horse world, it's impossible to never ruffle any feathers.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

It's your horse right? So why let the "trainer" be involved at all? You need to speak up before these things happen, not after. When the trainer say "I'll help her" you just say "no thank you". End of discussion. No drama, no explaination, no rocking the boat, just "no thank you". 

Whenever I let someone ride my horse (rare occurance) I am right there with them, giving direction just like you did after the "trainer" left. After all, you know your horse better than anyone, don't you?

The only time I ever let someone ride my horse in a lesson was when I had already paid for a lesson at a clinic, then hurt my arm the day before. The girl that rode my horse had never ridden him before, but was an experienced rider. Before our time slot, I had her up on the horse in another arena for about 15 minutes teaching her the aids to use to ride my horse. 

I might also add, what little you have said about this "trainer" sounds very, very strange. I have never had an instructor walk away from a lesson, for any reason. Of course, I would never take a lesson from anyone that I did not first watch giving lessons, usually in a clinic type situation. I would never throw lesson money away on a useless instructor. 

What about this "trainer" makes you willing to use her for anything? That is what I just don't understand...


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## princessfluffybritches (Aug 10, 2012)

Good question. 
I don't let anyone get on my horse who is a bully or who doesn't have soft hands. Or a beginner. This girl rides nicely and treats her own horse like gold. 

The trainer is good with teaching jumping. Her students clean up at shows. She has many good qualities. But softening a horse may not be one of them. If the girl continues to be guided by this trainer, she will fail. A horse can't flatwalk with a stiff neck .

I don't know how many of you know gaits. The major difference between them and trotting horses is that the horse needs to nod in time with the gait. The gait has 4 equally spaced foot falls. Like any horse's walk only with pushing the horse a bit, the walk is the same, but the speed is like a trot. These horses also get to the point where they flop their ears and some clack their teeth with the rhythm. The stride is longer with the back legs stepping more under the horse. This is all in a rounded frame. 

If you lift your hands, the horse inverts her roundness and racks which is a gait , 4 beat, but short steps. I guess I will be getting involved.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

princessfluffybritches said:


> Good question.
> I don't let anyone get on my horse who is a bully or who doesn't have soft hands. Or a beginner. This girl rides nicely and treats her own horse like gold.
> 
> The trainer is good with teaching jumping. Her students clean up at shows. She has many good qualities. But softening a horse may not be one of them. If the girl continues to be guided by this trainer, she will fail. A horse can't flatwalk with a stiff neck .
> ...


Well, I am not an expert on gaits, but the nodding you are refering to only applies to "Walker-bred" type horses. The "Racking-bred" like my RMHA, don't nod their head because they don't do the running walk like a TW. 

I do work my Rocky in a round frame, because it actually improves his rack. If he hollows, he loses the quality of his rack and it gets choppy. 

As far as I am aware, the only horses that need to get hollow to rack are the ones where the gait is more developed, as opposed to being totally natural. Breeds like the Saddlebred (often bred to have a hollow back), Arabians & even Morgans. 

Are you wanting to use this trainer to win in jumping classes? 

Because, IMO, a hunter/jumper, even if not in a perfect hunter frame, will always place over a gaited horse jumping perfectly, and the trainer is going to matter less than the horse (this excluding any rails knocked down).


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## princessfluffybritches (Aug 10, 2012)

You're right, it's only TWH's that nod.
I'm not planning on doing any jumping. 
I guess I will be getting back in there. I think it's beneficial for the girl to learn basic softening a horse, and aids. I don't get on anyone's horse and ask the horse to do something if they are not relaxed and willing. 

Anita, it was not a formal lesson. And the trainer watched the girl ride around the ring stiffly, and said to me that " she knows the flat walk, now all she needs to learn is the running walk and she'll be ready." What a hoot!

I think up until these 2 occurences, I thought she was a great trainer because of all the years of experience she had. I guess I thought she would be a better teacher. 

The trainer is a very nice lady who is very sick. I think what she's done is trained her students to jump well, but also be dependent on her. She's extremely knowledgeable about nutrition and illnesses. 

It's a nice place to board, it's all pasture board, and the barn is empty because the horses love being out all the time. They are very good to the horses. But yes, I've seen some issues that I may have handled differently. She has 2 yearling colts that won't stand for the farrier unless she is present. They don't lead well either unless it's her doing it. I don't know. 

Like Tempest said, I don't want to ruffle any feathers. It's a very small horse world here where I live.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Well, being very sick would explain leaving with a headache, sorry about that. 

So, I guess you were just trying to see if she could add anything to what you already know? Maybe the sickness, whatever it is (cancer?) is affecting her judgement. I'll go back to my earlier option, maybe she was really worried about you on the other horse, thinking it would bolt. 

If her sickness is affecting her judgement though, maybe she needs to quit teaching for a bit until she is better. You could offer to assist, if this is a "no charge" type lessons. 

Either way, yeah, it sounds like you have to get involved. 

Also, it sounds like it is a great place to board.


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## princessfluffybritches (Aug 10, 2012)

Thanks Anita, it's a beautiful place to board. All green all year.

The lesson and show is going on the back burner for now. My horse had her dentist today and he found a big tooth that was split down the middle and filled with **** and smelly. He said she looks like she's had it for quite a while. He said the previous dentist may have missed it. But I don't think she's had it for a year. So on March 4th, they will come and do the surgery. $1,000 dollars. Then antibiotics. I wonder if she should wait 2 weeks? I don't think they can come any sooner. I'll ask the BO/trainer. 

With the other horse, some girl and her mom came to look at her Sunday. The girl could not manage her , and was told to get her legs off the horse. The horse did try to run off with her. I just feel that the horse needs to know what legs feel like, LOL.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

$1000 for one tooth? Jeez that is a lot of money!! It has been years since I had to have teeth pulled on a horse, but I am sure it was nowhere near that kind of $$$ and he had two wolf teeth pulled! 

Have you thought about calling around to some other vets and getting estimates? I doubt it should cost more than $100 if you trailer to the vets...


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## princessfluffybritches (Aug 10, 2012)

From what they told me it's a lengthy procedure because they have to give the horse breaks from keeping her mouth open for so long. I think I should ask around. Thanks.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

LOL, Anabel posted about the leg issue a while back and I believe the same thing that she posted. General thought is this: A horse that is touchy and flighty to the leg needs to have more leg used on them so they learn to relax and don't booger at it. Horses who are dull and slow to respond need to have virtually no leg used on them except to cue for something, that way, they stay responsive to the lightest aids.

That sucks about your girls tooth, I hope the surgery goes well. It never hurts to ask around but a lot of the cost depends solely on your location. Around here, I could likely have the same procedure done for half the cost, but I live in a _very_ rural area in a very unpopulated region. Almost everything is cheap around here (except gas, which sucks because you have to drive for almost an hour to get to _anything_ LOL).


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## princessfluffybritches (Aug 10, 2012)

I checked around and the price seems to be the average. I've also heard stories about the infection going into the sinus and costing a whole lot more.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

So, just out of curiosity, I want to call the vet that pulled my horse's wolf teeth many years ago. He is very good but very practical too. 

Can you tell me which tooth it is that needs to be pulled? I want to call & get an estimate, to compare prices/regions.


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## princessfluffybritches (Aug 10, 2012)

Sure, that's a great idea. It an upper molar, about midway back.


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

Wolf teeth are far far more easy to remove. They are similar to the horse's chestnuts or a dog's dew claw -- vestiges of something their predecessors had. Because of this they are generally pretty small and their roots don't go very deep, making them fairly easy to remove.

The molars on the other hand are very deeply rooted and it is a much more involved process to remove them. If the tooth is split, it can be even more complicated to try to get it all the way out as the tooth can break further into multiple pieces upon the attempt to extract it, and in "worst case" can snap off -- leaving a portion of the tooth root imbedded in the jaw, which in some cases then has to be removed using more invasive techniques. (I don't want to freak you out princessfluffybritches... I don't think these sorts of complications are very common, I'm just pointing out that removing a molar is on entirely different level than popping out a couple of wolf teeth.)


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## princessfluffybritches (Aug 10, 2012)

princessfluffybritches said:


> Sure, that's a great idea. It an upper molar, about midway back.


I was quoted 1k. 

The rest kind of makes me put things into perspective. The BO/trainer she is what she is. I can't stay mad. Now that my horse has a bad tooth and an expensive removal, she has been taking her temperature/heart rate and giving her an antibiotic every day. I guess dependence is not always a negative.


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## AFull99 (Feb 21, 2014)

Cielo Notturno said:


> Whilst I think that _every_ rider could improve with the right trainer, I also think that no trainer at all is better than a bad trainer.
> 
> If you are doing well with your horse, I don't see why you "should" take lessons with a riding instructor that you probably don't like.


...or a trainer that your horse doesn't like...

which makes me think that this horse did not like this trainer and the "methods" used. 

do your own thing. you sound like you've got it much better than the "trainer".


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## princessfluffybritches (Aug 10, 2012)

Thanks, Afull99. I think the biggest reason she pi$$ed me off was that she rushed over to me yelling in front of about 20 barn people that I was making the horse mad and she was ready to bolt with me. Totally wrong and probably because she was not asked to direct or be in charge . 

I hope there's a next time, and I will tell her I'd just like to do my own thing for 10 minutes as an education between me and myself. I will tell her she can always say "I told you so" LOL

The main thing is that the horse is very forward. Flies over jumps loving it. But the problem is that she ignores the rider after the first jump and the rider starts to pull on her and they end up in a fight. Since the girl only has time to ride once a week, she may be a good match for the horse, but not at once a week.


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## danny67 (Nov 27, 2012)

Paradise said:


> In this case I think the best thing you can do is just keep doing your own thing. Don't take it to heart.


Egg-sactly! I trail ride, so do I really care about flying lead changes? Ugh, nothing worse than that old feeling of barn teenagers 'judging' me ride.

You can always consider a new trainer you will gel with better.


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## princessfluffybritches (Aug 10, 2012)

Thanks, Danny. I'm glad every one is so helpful and can understand .


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Hi PFB, I wasn't there but that trainer sounds rude, interfering and insecure, not to mention in need of a few lessons herself, in manners and probably also in some aspects of horsemanship. She may be great at coaching jumpers, but that doesn't make her an expert at all other disciplines, such as dressage, gaited horses, etc, nor does it mean she's automatically better than non-trainers at such things. Not every person who'd good with horses and riding ends up teaching others for money.

I agree that touchy horses like the "bolter" need to be taught to tolerate normal leg contact, and that the aim is to ride it like a normal horse, not a ticking bomb.

I also think that the instructor is being rather forward in getting involved with your horse, and needs to back off. You've every right to coach people you allow on your horse - it's your horse, you know your horse best, and you don't sound like you're at all uninformed about riding.

Look, I've no idea if this is a fair comparison, but many moons ago when I learnt to ride in Europe, one of our agistment centres had a jumping teacher who yelled all the time and made the horses in the arena nervous with his presence. Much as I would have liked jumping lessons, I was put off by this. I also noticed that he was "rushing" horses and riders without what in my view was the necessary groundwork, so lots of horses kind of charged around the jumping course without communicating with riders properly (and then the instructor yelled even louder). The dressage instructor was totally the opposite: Preparation, lots of exercises - calm, calm, calm.

Ah, the politics of riding establishments...

Good luck with your riding and your horse, you sound like you're on the right track, don't let anyone spoil your enjoyment, or discourage you from thinking for yourself.


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## princessfluffybritches (Aug 10, 2012)

Thanks, Sue. You've mentioned a lot that sounds like common sense. I do think if you ride a horse like a ticking bomb, you may get one. I do think this trainer "needs" people to "need" her. Maybe I'm not needy enough! LOL

Calm does work, doesn't it?


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

princessfluffybritches said:


> I was quoted 1k.
> 
> The rest kind of makes me put things into perspective. The BO/trainer she is what she is. I can't stay mad. Now that my horse has a bad tooth and an expensive removal, she has been taking her temperature/heart rate and giving her an antibiotic every day. I guess dependence is not always a negative.


That's kind of her to assist you this way. 

I finally had a chance to call my vet, he said he would have to see the tooth, but if the horse was trailered in, it would be a $30 office visit to inspect the tooth, and $15 additional if the horse needed anesthesia. I was told if the horse was older, (I replied about 10yrs) there was a good chance he could take it out. If he didn't think he could take it out without drilling, he would refer to a nearby dentist. 

Even though he couldn't give me an estimate, I seriously doubt it would cost anywhere near $1000. That would be more than most people here pay for a horse.


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## princessfluffybritches (Aug 10, 2012)

Anita, I can see where an older horse would be easier-less root. This dentist I just had is with a doctor in a trailer that is a treatment center and office all in one.

If I would have taken her to the Ocala horse hospital, they would have taken it out thru her cheek and it would cost a few thousands. All in all the tooth came out in 2 halves, smelled real bad, and took about 50 minutes of rocking, twisting, and pulling to get it out. My horse was sedated and looked drunk. My horse is 13. The tooth was about 2 inches long.


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## princessfluffybritches (Aug 10, 2012)




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