# I don't think my Haflinger is quite all right...



## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Why not get a video tape?


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

1. Are the vet and chiropractor that will be coming out together, different than the first vet and chiropractor? I hope so as it sounds as if the first two have missed a lot of indicators.

2. My knee jerk thought is that he has damage to his spine or sacrum or pelvis, or a combination. He could have fractured himself doing something in the pasture, he could have an old injury from who-knows-what and reinjured it.

2.1. Sometimes infections in the vital organs can also cause them to shrink down when being brushed.

3. In this case I'm going to say get out the credit card if your checkbook is low and demand the vet draw blood for a chemistry panel, a CBC, and while he's at it, check for any neurological disorders.

4. If the next vet and chiro visit is not productive, how close is the nearest equine hospital to you? If your horse is well enough to load, I would carry him to the best facility possible and find out what is wrong ---- because something is wrong and it's been wrong since he fell the first time. 

Bottom line is that there IS something wrong him but there's too much going on, from your description, for anyone on the Net to hazard a guess. 

Hopefully you can find better professional help than the two Bozos who said nothing's wrong your horse because something is wrong


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## Feathers7 (Jun 11, 2019)

Something is DEFINITELY wrong here. Standing camped out is usually a sign of belly discomfort, such as in colic. But that doesn't really explain the falling over. My instincts at that point would be nerve pinching somewhere, a hidden fracture or some joint dislocation, perhaps in the hip? How about hooves - how are those? Horses that have back problems tend not to buck - that hurts more.

Here, check this out: https://horsesidevetguide.com/drv/Diagnosis/992/fracture-of-hip-pelvis/

How long has this been going on? And what happened before it started? Was there an instigating event?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Since it's so prevalent here, any time I read of a horse tripping, stumbling, falling and generally acting like he's not sure where his feet are, I think EPM. If that's a thing in your area, I'd have them pull blood for that for sure.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

What have the vets done so far?

I would be wanting a thorough neuro exam, pull blood for anything that might be in your area, and xray the spine. That includes the neck. 

Get a specialist vet, not a livestock generalist.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Has he been tested for Lyme? 

How is his eyesight?


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Thank you everyone, for your thoughts.

@4horses ~ I don't have a helper, but someone made a video of their horse by hanging their iPhone around their neck... I will try to get some video of him moving.

@walkinthewalk ~ same vet as one of them (my main vet) but a different chiropractor. I don't think the vet took me seriously the first two visits, as I tend to cry wolf...a lot. When I really got into talking with her about my concerns, she seemed to take it seriously, so here's hoping. CC is (gulp) at the ready.

@Feathers7 ~ This is what I mean by camped out... the first pic was taken about a week after he arrived, the second from a few months ago. To be honest, I had to search for pics of it. Mostly he was standing under himself, but I think he stands like this quite often, more often than seems normal.:

















@Dreamcatcher Arabians ~ Will do on the EPM check.

@ApuetsoT ~ . What they have done so far is ask me to walk and trot him about a bit, then, since nothing is apparent and he is definitely not "lame", they pronounce him okay. The chiropractor was quite interesting; there were some crystals involved at which I inwardly roll my eyes, but she also did some neck and back work which provoked an interesting response from Boojum; when she was done with each stretch he would repeat the exact movement by himself one or two times, as if testing the new situation or sensation. I asked if there were any issues I should be aware of and if he was okay to ride, and she said he was in fine shape, no issues.

@Acadianartist ~ Yes, he was tested for Lyme about a week after he arrived here: he had a nasty tick on his neck. That was also the first 'vet check' for odd movement. I never considered eyesight, but a problem there would help explain some of his behaviors for sure. So I will keep that in mind when they come out also. 

The back shrinking has been gone for at least a year. I think it may have been the way I was grooming him. I got more aggressive brushes and stopped being so gentle, and he now likes being brushed. And he is cleaner 

But one big thing I neglected to mention in my original post, and the thing that convinced me it wasn't just clumsiness or me being over-cautions was that on the lung-line (we have started mini-lunging: three minutes a side at a walk, then two minutes a side at walk & maybe trot) is this: he understeps with his right hind. His left hind tracks right into his left front hoofprint but his right hind lands behind his right front hoofprint. 

This happens both directions. Some days it is only by an inch or so, but some days it can be by as much as 9 or 12 inches. 

Our space is limited so our circles are small (hence the slow speeds). One time it looked as though his entire right hind leg kind of pivoted outward a bit, and he took a really lame step, so we quit for the day.

If I can figure out how to take and post a video of him moving, I will do that.

Thanks again for the ideas on how to go forward with this.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There's a couple of posts that have already given some of my thoughts - EPM, Lyme, something going on in the spine.
The falling over incidents would make me want to get some in depth tests done.

Probably unrelated - but in the lower photograph I'm seeing what looks to be some unnatural fat deposits which are an early indicator of IR and Cushing's diease


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

If you stand directly behind him and look at his hips, are they level? Or is one side lower than the other? When you talk about him short striding and swinging his leg out to step, made me think of this. If so, your chiro can definitely help with that, but I wouldn't dismiss medical causes either, just yet.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

@Dreamcatcher Arabians ~ Boojum’s hips look level to me when he is standing square. But he is definitely lame. We walk-lunged today just to kind of maintain the idea of it and to move him a tiny bit, and had to call it off. 

After three minutes each way, left rein, right rein left rein... half a circle into the second left rein he started stepping quite short: three strides later his leg began to twist out, so we called it. Walking straight he looked fine. 

Every morning when I go out to feed him, he does a HUGE stretch and then pees. This morning he stretched way down, front legs out stiff and he rocks way back... and then almost collapsed behind. He had to scramble to recover.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Definitely need to call out better vets.

Another thought, what is he eating? Does he get green grass or is he fed exclusively hay? Supplemental hard feed?


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## Feathers7 (Jun 11, 2019)

jaydee said:


> Probably unrelated - but in the lower photograph I'm seeing what looks to be some unnatural fat deposits which are an early indicator of IR and Cushing's diease


I saw that as well, and thought the same.

This is also something I noticed, and it's likely not the entire issue but it might be compounding the root issue: After looking at the photos, his hind hooves look like they have too low of heel and too long of toe. This can cause strain on tendons and ligaments (and other issues), and the strain could be furthered by his camped out stance. You might consider getting him some hoof boots for the hinds, and use padded insoles that help lift the heels. See if he goes a little better in those. That's only a temporary test and a 'bandaid' - you would eventually want some trimming work done that helps fix the root problem. His front hooves look pretty good from what I can see.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

@ApuetsoT ~ He does not get any grass. He gets hay supplemented by a ration balancer, Triple Crown 30% ... 10-12 pounds of a Timothy hay mix and half a pound of soaked alfalfa cubes a day. He gets two main feedings a day; half his hay either in a a slow feed net (1“ holes) or in a Port-a-grazer. The ration balancer is delivered in 1/4 cup increments 12 times a day (boredom alleviator), and the soaked cubes he gets in two feedings: ~ a quarter pound each to Add folic acid and to hold supplements. 

Currently he is getting 2 teaspoons salt Plus licks, Heiro for added vitamin e and as an amulet to ward off laminitis. He gets Smartpak Senior Ultra for joints and as a second amulet against colic, and Glanzen 3 for hooves and coat. 

He also splits an apple with the parrot... but the parrot gets the bigger half.
@Feathers7 His farrier comes back on November 4th, and he just got a set of awesome Fire-Breathing Traction Action Renegade Vipers for all four hooves. There are rocks in his paddock, which is where we do our little walk-lunging sessions, and, I hoped the traction would help with the falling.

My third amulet...


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## Feathers7 (Jun 11, 2019)

Captain Evil said:


> @*ApuetsoT* ~ 10-12 pounds of a Timothy hay mix...
> 
> @*Feathers7* His farrier comes back on November 4th, and he just got a set of awesome Fire-Breathing Traction Action Renegade Vipers for all four hooves.


Just an FYI: Timothy hay can be pretty high in iron, if that's of concern.

That's great about the hoof boots! I took a quick look to see if Renegade has insoles - their website didn't say much about that. You can grab some opencell foam, or foam board, and cut a custom hoof boot insert pad that both lifts the heels and ends about 2" short of the toe. Perhaps talk to your farrier about that. =) Again, that's only a bandaid and hooves likely aren't the root cause of this, but you can at least see if it helps him walk and stretch out to urinate easier. Traction is definitely a good idea.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Captain Evil said:


> @Dreamcatcher Arabians ~ Boojum’s hips look level to me when he is standing square. But he is definitely lame. We walk-lunged today just to kind of maintain the idea of it and to move him a tiny bit, and had to call it off.
> 
> After three minutes each way, left rein, right rein left rein... half a circle into the second left rein he started stepping quite short: three strides later his leg began to twist out, so we called it. Walking straight he looked fine.
> 
> Every morning when I go out to feed him, he does a HUGE stretch and then pees. This morning he stretched way down, front legs out stiff and he rocks way back... and then almost collapsed behind. He had to scramble to recover.


Can you get him to a lameness specialist or have one out? The more you write the more I think it's out of the local vet's class and would be hesitant for a chiro to do much manipulation without the vet's blessing.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Captain Evil said:


> @*ApuetsoT* ~ He does not get any grass. He gets hay supplemented by a ration balancer, Triple Crown 30% ... 10-12 pounds of a Timothy hay mix and half a pound of soaked alfalfa cubes a day. He gets two main feedings a day; half his hay either in a a slow feed net (1“ holes) or in a Port-a-grazer. The ration balancer is delivered in 1/4 cup increments 12 times a day (boredom alleviator), and the soaked cubes he gets in two feedings: ~ a quarter pound each to Add folic acid and to hold supplements.
> 
> Currently he is getting 2 teaspoons salt Plus licks, Heiro for added vitamin e and as an amulet to ward off laminitis. He gets Smartpak Senior Ultra for joints and as a second amulet against colic, and Glanzen 3 for hooves and coat.


I was wondering about Vitamin E deficiency. TC 30 has 1000iu, so he's getting some. It wouldn't hurt to macrodose VitE, no upper limit. Vit E deficiency can induce neuro symptoms and can be used as a treatment for other neuro sources.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Feathers7 said:


> That's great about the hoof boots! I took a quick look to see if Renegade has insoles - their website didn't say much about that. You can grab some opencell foam, or foam board, and cut a custom hoof boot insert pad that both lifts the heels and ends about 2" short of the toe.


Just FYI, I've tried using pads in Renegades but they fall out. The open back means pads tend to work their way back and out of the boot.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

We had a horse that started to have random 'collapsing' episodes, he had a tumor close to his heart that was causing them

If those are fatty deposits I can see in that photo you should get him checked for Cushing's because an enlarged pituitary gland can put pressure on the brain. It can cause horses to collapse and as it worsens can cause seizures
Cushing's will also cause a horse to feel lethargic and have laminitis that ranges from a mild form with enough inflammation to make the horse a bit sore to full blown 'off its feet'


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I hope you can get him figured out, do all the tests you can. I agree with everyone's suggestions. I would try to see if there's an even better vet that can come out (if he can't be hauled). Keep us posted on the results. I hope you get some answers. :sad: I know it must be frustrating.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

I haven't heard back from the vet yet but will call tomorrow... we are heading north tomorrow and won't be back until Monday, but I hope I will have a date by then. I will also take pictures of his hinds after his next trim (Nov 1, not 2) and see what people think.

How can he buck so very energetically, trot and canter down his paddock, roll over side to side three times in a row and yet be too lame to walk for three minutes in a circle? 

How, I ask you, how...


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

I finally got a date for the vet, although bad weather has delayed the farrier. My vet was going to bring her x-ray machine and was hoping to bring a chiropractor who she really likes, but she ended up just coming to look at him.

He was really well behaved: she did most of the exam with no halter or lead on... 

She found his back to be quite sore in several places, and thought he might have a touch of arthritis in his left stifle. She also checked his eyesight by flicking her fingers near his eyes, but he seemed okay, just terribly unconcerned. 

Finally, I got out the lunging gear and just got him going at a walk in a small circle ~ I don't even think it took three minutes for him to start hobbling, poor kid.

So we started him on bute, mainly as a diagnostic tool. She said stopping the bute and observing any changes will tell us more than putting him on it. She is also going to contact her chiro and I will try to arrange trucking.

So, no work at all for him, although we are going to work on leading and manners anyway: I can't imagine short, easy walks could do much harm when he walks all over the paddock anyway. I am not sure about backing up though...

Then tonight, I notice that he is quite butt-high... 









Sorry, couldn't resist. 

And, I feel like such a traitor, but I can't help browsing the net for horses...


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

One step closer to finding an answer - at least someone saw something this time. Keep us posted. He is such a handsome fella - I have my fingers crossed that it is something that can be worked on.


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## Feathers7 (Jun 11, 2019)

Glad you're getting to the root of the issue. I wanted to point something out: those hind hooves look very off, particularly the left one. Looks pancaked out. But hooves can either be the source of a problem, or can reflect a problem elsewhere in the body. If you can, I'd get some radiographs done of those hooves and see what's going on inside of the hoof capsule. =)


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

My farrier comes Thursday, so I will take shots of his feet then and post them.

On Friday vet wants me to truck Boojum to a chiropractor about 1-1/2 hours away. My farrier cannot do it, and the only other trucker I know told me $400.00... 

I think it is fair, given that he will also have to travel 60 some miles here, 60+ miles back to almost where he left from, then do it all over again.Yikes! And it is supposed to snow, and I am a little worried about trucking a horse who tends to fall down. I have visions of cutting him out of the trailer with torches...

So I'm pondering.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Captain Evil said:


> My farrier comes Thursday, so I will take shots of his feet then and post them.
> 
> On Friday vet wants me to truck Boojum to a chiropractor about 1-1/2 hours away. My farrier cannot do it, and the only other trucker I know told me $400.00...
> 
> ...


I think $400 is outrageous for the haul, but that's for my neck of the woods. Based on your weather report, I'd wait on the chiro until you have better weather or the chiro can come to you. No point in having the horse adjusted and put right and then to have him get injured in an wreck or something on the way home.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

How far up the coast are you? When I lived in NH, I used a chiro (also a vet) who is based in Bedford, NH and I believe travels up the southern coast of Maine. She is a little "magical" when you interact with her, but great with the horses and always left mine feeling really good. 

https://www.e-cwellness.com/
I understand that your vet has a preference for someone to use, but that seems like quite a distance to have to travel just for a chiro, particularly with a hurting horse. If you have to spend that much to trailer him, could you see if the chiro would come to you if you paid a hefty travel fee for him/her? Can't imagine it would be more than you're quoted for trailering. 

Good luck!


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

@Feathers7 The farrier came today and when she picked up his front hoof, she kind of paused and was quiet. So I said, "Whaddya think?" 

She said "I've never seen his hoof like this before. This horse grows toe and he grows sole, and all he's done this time is grow heel." So she got out the hoof testers and said he was ouchy. She did not see any major issues, no big white line or "seediness" and no obvious signs of laminitis, though she said only an x-ray could be definitive there. 

She did a very minimal trim, tsking to herself. She is wondering if there is something more systemic going on, something like Lyme or a pre-laminitic situation that is exacerbating or contributing to everything else which may or may not be going on. She thought his hooves looked wider and somewhat flatter with fairly thin soles which is new for him. So she wants me to use Keratex hoof hardener to kind of help him out for a bit, and maybe add Farrier's Formula x2 for a while.

@Dreamcatcher Arabians $ @erogan ~ Right? I mean part of me thinks, $200 for the last vet visit, $400 for trailering, unknown for Chiropractor, and on and on... I am halfway to Tufts! 

(Okay, well, not really. I called Tufts and..... YIKES! It started off okay, but then she worked her way into full body x-rays and neurological exams and nerve blocks... She got up to about the cost of my dream PRE Andalusian before she ran out of steam.)

And what if he fell down in the trailer? or twisted himself, or whatever. He is not so great about remaining in an upright position! I have a trailer which has been storing firewood ever since we crashed our house down and re-built it. For the trailering money I should maybe have that gone over and get it is safe working condition.

And all the while, DH in the background, "I told you, we can't afford horses. All they are is time, trouble and money..." Oi!


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

@Captain Evil,

Going backnto your post #18, where your horse has its back hooves up in the barn:

You commented the vet felt the horse had some sore spots in the back.

My horse with the fractured sacrum has a 3" step down to get out of his stall. He can reach the hay on the other side of the aisle. When he doesn't feel good, I have noticed he will intentionally stand (eating hay) with his back end in the stall, thus elevating the hind quarters three inches.

If he's feeling good, he will come right out of the stall and head for the area where I clean him up for turnout.

Invariably, the chiro needs to adjust him during those times he chooses to stand with his butt elevated.

This is purely anecdotal theory based on my own observation.

Also, my Rottweiler has some hip issues. I have noticed she will sometimes choose to lay with the front of her body on the floor and the back end elevated on the bed.

Just sayin' lollollol


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

I have taken a few deep breaths, and have come up with a tentative plan. 

We are a flurry of activity here now: a big marine specie collection & maybe delivery on Sunday & Monday, then we have to go to Aruba for a consultation job (packing my dive gear: pretending not to be excited, but I am!), leaving on Wednesday, back on Sunday night. Scallop diving starts the next day, and DH is fierce about that. 4:00 risings and all day on the boat. I am ground support, so have much more flexibility.

Once DH is in full scallop diving mode, I am going to try to get Boojum to Tufts. They are talking potential neurological issues, hoof issues, etc. It's gonna be expensive no matter how it goes so I may as well just cut to the chase and get it done. He doesn't seem to be in pain on a day to day slouching around the dooryard basis so I think waiting a few weeks will be okay. 

He gets his drysuit all in a twist before big jobs, so once he is in the H20 steadily and $$ is coming in, things may smooth out and a Tufts trip may be less traumatic for everyone.

So that is the working plan right now.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

Fingers crossed that Tufts finds an answer and your beautiful boy gets better. I am so glad you decided to just cut to the chase and go straight for the best


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## SwissMiss (Aug 1, 2014)

Hope you get an answer at Tufts! In the end it may actually be more cost-effective (and faster) to go there in the first place.

In the meantime, enjoy Aruba! Lovely diving spots there - even though northing really compares to the red Sea in my opinion :wink:


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

carshon said:


> Fingers crossed that Tufts finds an answer and your beautiful boy gets better. I am so glad you decided to just cut to the chase and go straight for the best


Me too. That's the best answer to start with. You can always have a massage or chiro adjustment once you know that none of that will cause harm.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Well, it's time for me to put on my old lady knickers and do what must be done: trailer Boojum. I am scared to death of trailering, and recent posts have done nothing to alleviate my fears. Tuft's is 300+ miles and five hours away, and New England Equine is 230+ miles and four hours away. And it is winter and I am a crappy driver.

So I am scared. 

I do not have a serviceable trailer. Mine is a three horse stock trailer (purchased when we had a 1000 pound Arabian and a 1600-1800 pound Percheron), and it has been storing firewood since we crashed our old house down in 2013, so, yeah. My farrier has offered to lend me her trailer (Bless her!) so that is the route I would probably go.

Okay. So say I borrow a trailer. DH will probably insist on driving. Did I mention that I was a crappy driver? So he will probably insist on driving which will mean a very, very unpleasant 10 hours on the road hearing about how expensive, dangerous, worthless, and time-consuming horses are... Oy. 

And, he is a fast, kind of stop-and-go type driver, even when hauling boats, and there will be an unsound, unsteady, apt to fall down horse standing in a trailer for hours on end; a horse who hasn't seen the inside of a trailer for two and a half years. 

Tuft's was very easy to deal with on the phone. They called me right back with really thoughtful questions and were able to give me rough estimates on cost and time involved. New England Equine, closer and probably less expensive, has not returned my two phone calls in a week and a half, so I am not sure how I feel about them.

Well, that is my kvetch for the day. Lots to think about.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

*Hire someone to haul your horse*. Really. Ask around and go with someone who is recommended by people you trust. It is worth your peace of mind, and your horse's safe travels. 

Oh, and give my regards to Tufts! I hear they are naming a new wing for me ... 

No, seriously, I just got a call today from the head of surgery asking about how Pippa was doing -- she was released from the hospital five months ago! He hoped I would send him some video. They are good people there.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Avna said:


> *Hire someone to haul your horse*. Really. Ask around and go with someone who is recommended by people you trust. It is worth your peace of mind, and your horse's safe travels.
> 
> Oh, and give my regards to Tufts! I hear they are naming a new wing for me ...
> 
> No, seriously, I just got a call today from the head of surgery asking about how Pippa was doing -- she was released from the hospital five months ago! He hoped I would send him some video. They are good people there.


This ^^^^^ by all means

Is it possible to have your farrier clear his/her schedule and do the driving, even though this will be an overnighter?

My DH has pulled his race car all over this U.S. I also don't like his start/stop, ride up on people's bumpers, take bends too fast either. He would only haul my horses over my dead body, lol. I can't convince him hauling live weight is not the same as stationery weight.

Please try to find an experienced horse person to do the driving so you can at least save that part of your sanity


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Yes, hire someone competent and experienced to haul your horse. It's worth it. Especially since you aren't sure how your horse will do during the trip. You need someone familiar with horses, and how horses need to be hauled.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I agree, definitely see if someone can haul. I think it's nice that your farrier offered to lend you her trailer. Could they do it possibly?! That'd be great. Worse case, your DH can drive...but that's worse case, hopefully someone can help with hauling who is experienced & confident about it. Especially considering it's a long haul, not like you're just going up the road. Crossing my fingers for you!  I really hope you get answers. Sounds like they are a good place.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I'm not sure it's possible, but is there by chance a horse transport company headed toward Tufts? I know some of the larger farms will ship commercially to the vet-- it may be a way to get your horse a ride with a professional. Maybe call Tufts and inquire if there is a shipper they recommend that their clients use?


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Tufts does have a list of shippers they use that they will send to you if you ask.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

The fur has flown and the dust is settling. DH has kind of accepted the fact that Boo should be seen, but the details of it all continue to gall him on all sides. He is particularly upset about two things: 

1 - I have a three-horse trailer that he thinks we should fix up and use, or sell and get a one-horse trailer (this may be his quiet way of ensuring that I don't EVER get a second horse, but I'm not sure), and drive Boo ourselves. He is adamantly opposed to hiring a trucker, even though both Tuft's and New England Equine have provided me with a list of truckers.

2 - DH cannot believe - absolutely CANNOT believe that I have two saddles, one custom made and one re-fitted for a horse that I may not ever be able to ride. I can understand his aggravation on this point, really I can, but I don't quite see what I can do about it.

Tuft's was really nice and gave me good information and a pretty reasonable estimate in terms of money and times: New England Equine took two weeks and four calls to get back to me, but they have also been really nice and their estimate is roughly half of Tuft's estimate. That, coupled with being an hour closer means that NEEquine is our probable destination. 

Now to figure out transport. Hmmm.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

If your guy doesn't support you in taking care of your horse -- and hiring a hauler is, absolutely, taking care of your horse and I see no other good choice available, you have a bigger problem than I thought. 

You should NOT drive Boo yourselves if you are too fearful, your trailer is unsafe, and DH is a terrible hauler. Good grief.

It sounds like he is very worried about finances. Maybe you should start with listening to what he is really worried about exactly.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

I do sort have issues in that area, and it is not so much money, I think, as time and interest. DH is kind of, um, a one-man show. He is very, very good at what he does, but his passion borders on obsession. Because I am part of is world, a goodly chunk of my value - geez I hate to type this, but it is true - a good part of my value to him lies in how much I participate in his world. Time I spend in the barn is a huge irritation to him, even when I just feed and clean; 20 minutes twice a day seems like too much for him.

And that’s hard, no doubt about it, it is hard and it gets pretty lonely sometimes. Kind of like I lead a double life: anything to do with horses, classical music, literature... well, it’s just smarter and easier to keep it to myself.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

Oh @Captain Evil I am so sorry to hear this but unfortunately, I think you are not as alone in that position as you think. My new riding friend finds herself in those exact same shoes. She never quite "hides" her horse expenses from her husband but she is not vocal about it either. She just recently retired and has always had "her own money" and now her husband is insisting they share an account that he controls and she was in tears telling me, she is so fearful he will insist on her getting rid of her horses that she literally made herself ill over the worry.

I have no advice but just wanted to send you a cyber hug - I hope you get Boo looked at soon and you are able to ride. I personally think non-horsey people just can't understand how relaxing our animals are - and the comfort they give.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Maybe you should remind him just how much you help him out with his passion. When mine gets on his rant about getting rid of the horses I start on mine about getting rid of his guns. Shuts him up until next time. LOL


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I think before you go further, you need to sit down and have an honest talk with your husband. Are your finances worse than you are led to believe? Why is he so jealous of your time spent with your horse? Why is he willing to risk your safety by hauling yourselves when you are unprepared to do so? Does he realize what will happen if your horse goes down in the trailer on the way to the vet? Professional haulers know how to deal with that. He will not. 

Now, if you're still on speaking terms after that and the horse is going to the vet somehow... If your horse has something very expensive to treat, what is going to happen? You will need to have your 'ducks in a row' before you go to the vet, because you may well have to make some quick decisions while there about what you want to do with this horse. Having that thought out ahead of time is important. For instance, maybe between the two of you, you'll willing to spend X amount of money, after which, if no answers, you euthanize. And have a top limit of treatment money to spend as well. If treatment will cost more than that amount, euthanization is your choice. Or perhaps the money isn't the issue, it's the 'not knowing' that is a bigger problem, in which case if a treatment plan has a low success rate, your decision may be different than if it has a high success rate. What if your horse can be treated and will live a long life, but be unrideable? What if lifelong twice-a-day medications are needed? What if they still don't know after all this--- are you going to keep the horse and see how things go with no treatment, or have you made a different decision? Know going into this what your limits are. He needs to be part of this decision if he's in your life. Going into this without those types of answers already thought out between the two of you is going to cause a huge rift in your relationship. He's likely very concerned that you have this large, very expensive animal that you're pouring money into with no end in sight, and he may even be thinking this is a wild goose chase and the horse looks like he's 'just fine' to his eyes. Not only that, but you want another one.... Now, what happens if you take your gelding to the nearer clinic and they refer you on to Tufts? Because they may. You need to go into this having a plan in place for what you want to learn, what you will do in case of X or Y outcome, and you and your husband both need to be on the same page. Some people will keep a horse going no matter what. Others will put a horse down for minor things if the horse is unrideable or has a questionable outcome. Most of us, sad to say, have a financial limit beyond which we will not go for our horses-- and some horses have a higher one than others, even in the same family. It's not unreasonable to say "I'm able to spend ___ dollars. If diagnosis or treatment costs exceed that, this is my decision." and share that with the vet clinic, too. If they want to do an MRI and you have no plans for that expense, make it clear to them up front. Make sure your goals for this vet visit are clear to him AND the vet, and that DH is aware of what the costs may be and the outcomes. 

I'd also really sit down and have a heart to heart with yourself about what you deserve in a relationship. Are you ok with having to align everything in your life around his passions forever? Some people are, some aren't. But you also deserve to have things you enjoy without constant derision, too. My husband HATES horses, but he understands why I have them, and he hasn't said a word about the dozen saddles in the tack room for only a couple of horses... and I don't freak out that he has a stack of musical instruments in our office the doubles the value of our home... a relationship is give and take. Some couples do fine where one gives a lot more than one takes, others don't. Maybe you've already thought this through, but if not, do some thinking and then visit with him about that if it doesn't align with what is currently happening.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Captain Evil said:


> I do sort have issues in that area, and it is not so much money, I think, as time and interest. DH is kind of, um, a one-man show. He is very, very good at what he does, but his passion borders on obsession. Because I am part of is world, a goodly chunk of my value - geez I hate to type this, but it is true - a good part of my value to him lies in how much I participate in his world. Time I spend in the barn is a huge irritation to him, even when I just feed and clean; 20 minutes twice a day seems like too much for him.
> 
> And that’s hard, no doubt about it, it is hard and it gets pretty lonely sometimes. Kind of like I lead a double life: anything to do with horses, classical music, literature... well, it’s just smarter and easier to keep it to myself.


It sounds like he needs you to share his obsession but he can't imagine giving you the same thing. There's a word for that and it isn't a good word. Maybe he needs to understand the part about a relationship being a mutual give and take, not just him take you give ...


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I am just going to put this out here. I don't think the OP is asking for relationship advice or husband bashing. It is truly not helpful and can be perceived as hurtful. She has come here to ask her friends for support on getting her horse looked at and hopefully healed. We as readers to her post are seeing her emotions at a stressful time in her life - where things often look worse than they are.


Now back to being helpful and supportive.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

If you both agree (which I know you both do) that Boo's health is important & you do need answers, he needs to be seen...DH needs to just bite the bullet & understand that transporting Boo yourselves isn't what is best here. 

I think using the transportation that Tuft has recommended isn't a bad idea. Why is he so opposed to it? You can worry about fixing up/selling your trailer later. What matters now is that you get Boo to the vet. 

I don't feel like we need to get into relationship advice, at ALL...because that's not what this thread is about. Let's get back to Boo.

Did you end up asking the farrier if they can take you guys? I hope you can find someone. :sad: If all else fails, I'd definitely use Tuft's recommendations for transportation. At least then you know they are reputable! Better to be safe than sorry, I truly think getting someone else to transport is best here.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Being 72, very independent, divorced more than once, I will refrain from my giving thoughts regarding DH’s Neanderthal attitude

My trailering thought is go back to square one. Ask (make that beg) your farrier to drive to wherever you’re taking Boo with the explanation to DH that your farrier wants to observe and speak to the vets.

Truthfully Boo may need corrective trimming as a follow up, and one-on-one instruction from the vets could be crucial. Plus your farrier would really welcome the learning experience

My farrier goes to Tennessee Equine frequently, with her very serious endurance rider client (who has won her last three competitions with her Arab) for these very reasons

No, no, and no to a single horse trailer - those things would make a 100# dog claustrophobic


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## GrittyGrulla (Feb 11, 2019)

Firstly, he is beautiful! Second, this sounds neurological. Possibly a spinal injury or pelvic, etc. but I'd say it definitely sounds like a neuro problem. It could be so many different things but something is definitely wrong. I hope you get it sorted out. Dont give up trying to hunt down answers.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

First I would like to say thank you most sincerely to EVERYONE who has responded to this post about Boojum and the difficulties he and I are going through right now. It is frustrating and scary. 

I don't think I have ever posted anything negative about DH before as it kind of feels like a sucker-punch, and that's not something I want to do. But post I did, and I have to say that I am really touched by your kind, thoughtful, insightful and honest responses to my slightly off-topic kvetching. Your writings made me feel a whole lot better, gave me a ton to consider and tweaked my perspective in a way that, I think, it needed to be tweaked.

And they made me smile. So thank you all very much.

Both Tufts and NE Equine gave me a short list of shippers, so I will contact them and see what that's gonna look like. Both places are scheduling appointments about a week out, so once transport is arranged it should move fairly quickly. My farrier is a bit concerned about driving a horse in any sort of weather and it is getting to be that time of year in the Northeast, and I can't say I blame her. Also, she is pretty much only available on weekends, so I think that route is unlikely. I will start calling Friday. I don't want to drive him ourselves, I really don't.

Anyway..

@Avna "...maybe you should start listening to what he is really worried about..." Yes, Avna, I don't think he is really concerned about horses or money. If I were a passionate violinist or artist or reader involved in book clubs, I think it would be the same... 
@carshon I hope your friend sorts her horse-husband issues out; that sounds really difficult. Living without a horse is simply not an option for me, not unless the world as we know it somehow ends... 

@JCnGrace I like your approach!

@walkinthewalk I will talk to my farrier again: I would love to have her eyes and ears along, but she did seem quite hesitant. I offered to pay her what I would have to pay a regular shipper so she might, but I want her to be comfortable if she decides to do it. And got it: no one horse trailers! 

@SilverMaple ...a lot to think about.... a lot. I had to print your thoughts out and put it in "bullet" form so I could figure out where to go with it: how to proceed. A lot more I could put here, but... just a lot to think about. Thanks.

11:17: we were up at 5:00 to move a boat, the deliver scallops - now DH is cooking for tomorrow and I need to go and do the dishes.

Really want to talk to the shippers now.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Good luck with everything, @Captain Evil. :hug:


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Thanks, everyone.

Things are chugging along at a snail's pace, but is is a hopeful snail.

We have an appointment on the 16th with New England Equine. 

I have contacted some of the shippers NE Equine and Tufts suggested, and it seems do-able, but not easy. Nobody seems thrilled about going the distance there and back, and some are dubious about the weather. I don't really blame them; I don't think I would want to trailer in snow or ice either.

DH is still pushing to do the trailering ourselves, and has taken our trailer in to be looked and by a body man - a really good one too - who is looking at the wheel bearings, frame, and so on. It is a three-horse slant stall Bison stock trailer with sway bars. We got it when we had my Arab, Djinn, and DH's Percheron, Ahab. We would put Ahab in the front two stalls and put Djinn in the last stall, but those were short trips, all under an hour.

I also called Boojum's prior owner , and talked about trailering. She takes horses (Haflingers) to and from Ohio several times a year, and for her, 4 hours is nothing. It still is a lot for me. She said Boojum has trailered a fair amount in the past and never had any issues. I asked her for her opinion on wraps and blankets, and she felt that simpler would be better: a fleece blanket, no cover sheet (she said he would roast), no boots and a breakaway halter, just in case. She thought he would travel better in the middle stall, with a divider on either side to brace on. I'm not sure about the no boots part.

So the transportation is still up in the air, but I am feeling better about the idea of doing it ourselves. I told DH it was about 4 hours, and he said that it would be longer for us since we would probably not go over 55 mph and would stop to let Boo rest and have a drink at least once. I was happy to hear that, for sure.

And of course, I will bring coolers of water from home: also hay and hay net, health paperwork, hoofpick & brushes, lead ropes, a lunge line and his bridle - maybe his saddle too - no matter what we end up doing about transportation.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Here are some shots of the trailer before going to the body man:

















And one of the latches from a divider: 









It also has fitted floor mats but I removed them so the frame and floor could be inspected. Our truck is pretty heavy duty: It's a 2019 and tows boats without any problem, so ??


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

If it were me - and I've pulled horse trailers on 5 hour trips - I'd still not do this trip myself because of the snow and ice; I'd outsource to a commercial carrier. If your DH is banging on about saving money, show him @lostastirrup's accident thread - she and her horse are lucky to be alive and her trailer a write-off, after slipping on ice. 4 hours is a long time if you're not used to driving those distances - and a long time to concentrate like nothing else because of snow and ice. I would tend to think commercial carriers have a lower risk in those conditions than private drivers (but have no statistics to back this up - just the idea that practice improves skills). On top of that it's how stressful that trip would be for you, either with DH driving unsympathetically (a horse is not a boat and some people don't get that when driving) while you are biting your fingers in horror, or you driving all the way...


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

SueC said:


> If it were me - and I've pulled horse trailers on 5 hour trips - I'd still not do this trip myself because of the snow and ice; I'd outsource to a commercial carrier. If your DH is banging on about saving money, show him @lostastirrup's accident thread - she and her horse are lucky to be alive and her trailer a write-off, after slipping on ice. 4 hours is a long time if you're not used to driving those distances - and a long time to concentrate like nothing else because of snow and ice. I would tend to think commercial carriers have a lower risk in those conditions than private drivers (but have no statistics to back this up - just the idea that practice improves skills). On top of that it's how stressful that trip would be for you, either with DH driving unsympathetical​ly (a horse is not a boat and some people don't get that when driving) while you are biting your fingers in horror, or you driving all the way...


This ^^^ This. ^^^ This ^^^ 

I hate to say it, but I don't think your husband will get any forum support for hauling Boo to NEE. The fact the experienced horse haulers are a bit nervous because of the weather should tell him something.


This is a good time for all of us to jingle for good weather and clean roads on your travel days


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I somehow missed this thread earlier. Not a lot to add. Did the vet test for EPM & Lymes? I have absolutely no experience with those things here, but know it can cause weird 'lameness' & laminitis etc. Not a lot to add... cept on the hoof front, of course! Tho it doesn't sound like 'just feet' in the very least, but perhaps that foot probs are one more 'symptom' of the prob. Or else they're another thing that's just adding to his woes. So, here's another opinion to throw into the pot!



Captain Evil said:


> @Feathers7She said "I've never seen his hoof like this before. This horse grows toe and he grows sole, and all he's done this time is grow heel." So she got out the hoof testers and said he was ouchy. She did not see any major issues, no big white line or "seediness" and no obvious signs of laminitis, though she said only an x-ray could be definitive there.


So, it's not likely a matter of the horse 'growing heel' more so than elsewhere, but that he has, for some reason, started walking on his toes a lot more lately then. So the toes have worn while the heels have not. Where did she find him 'ouchy' with the hoof testers? Tho I'm not a big fan of hoof testers...

Re laminitis & xrays, I do not agree with her comment. If there are seriously no 'signs'(assuming the farrier knows what she's looking for), then there are not likely to be any signs from an xray either. And that's not the least definitive. A horse can have pretty serious, even chronic laminitis without radiographic evidence, which only show the bones, the hard stuff, not inflammation of soft tissue. And for that matter, a horse may have 'rotation' or 'dropped sole' evident in rads, without being currently laminitic. Because that only 'sees' mechanical changes that eventuate, not the laminitis. If there are mechanical changes like that, it should be reasonably obvious to the trained eye, without rads. What rads can be 'definitive' about, which you can't be completely accurate about otherwise, is the specific degree of damage/changes.



> something like Lyme or a pre-laminitic situation that is exacerbating or contributing to everything else which may or may not be going on. She thought his hooves looked wider and somewhat flatter with fairly thin soles which is new for him. So she wants me to use Keratex hoof hardener to kind of help him out for a bit, and maybe add Farrier's Formula x2 for a while.


My understanding is that Lyme & such can cause laminitis too - @Rambo is one recent one here who had that issue, if memory serves... If she's talking about 'pre-laminitis', I think she means what is termed 'low-grade' or 'sub clinical' laminitis, but she perhaps doesn't have a lot of knowledge on it. Wider, flatter, thin soles, esp being new to him, sounds to me like there are indeed signs of laminitis she's seeing, but perhaps not recognising as such. 

I would NOT use Keratex on his frogs/heel bulbs, which may be the cause of his toe-walking, and if he's thin soled enough that you/she thinks he is hurting & risking further damage just in the paddock, then he needs padding, not just paint. I'd boot &/or pad him & see what difference it makes. 

Does this farrier have good nutritional knowledge? Does she know what exactly the horse's diet is, to suggest 'maybe adding FF'?


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

loosie said:


> My understanding is that Lyme & such can cause laminitis too - @Rambo is one recent one here who had that issue, if memory serves...


Yes my horse had issues with laminitis due to Lyme disease, earlier this year. Lyme disease can mimic many illnesses. 

It's tick borne, it's the deer tick that can cause it. 
Not sure OP lives in a area that has deer ticks.??


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

@loosie~ Boo has been tested for Lyme, back when I got him in April of 2016. He got off the trailer looking funny to me, with a “full diaper” swagger he placed his feet with a real “stomp,” as though he were trying to drive each leg right through the ground. Then, when I would brush him, his back would shrink down, even with a light touch. That has gone away, but the vet re-created it when she tested him just lately. And, he arrived with two ticks embedded in his neck. I figured that they were far from the first ticks he ever had, and so called the vet out right away to have him tested for Lyme and evaluated.

He tested negative on the Lyme, and the vet said he was fine and sound.

I would absolutely not rule out laminitis. He’s a perfect candidate, and I understand that signs of laminitis can be subtle. And no, my farrier does not know his diet at all.

Right now, he is on a starvation diet 10-12# of hay a day plus ration balancer and supplements, and he is still cresty and tapes at 1100 even though he is 14.2-14.3. One of his supplements is Heiro, which is supposed to help prevent laminitis, but of course….

I am no equine nutritionalist, but I have my hay tested every year and this year it is at 11.1%. I use Feedxl to help me make sense of it all, but am still not great about figuring out his diet.

So this is what he gets:









And the graph:









...and then there are pages of other stuff, which boils down to:

~He is not getting enough forage
~His diet has 1% starch and 10.1% Water Soluble Carbs
~...and 1.6% Non-structural Carbs
~More biotin than he needs but not at harmful levels (57.6 mg) and I plan on dropping it after his "therapeutic" 6 months has passed...
~Both the flax and the vitamin E supplements have more than 15% NSC although his diet as a whole is within safe limits.

So, boots? 

The only ones that seem appropriate for wandering about paddocks and stalls are the "Soft Rides" . Would that be what you would recommend? I do think he gets stone bruises not infrequently, and I think he has one or two now.

When I was speaking with his last owner she told me that he had fallen once when they had him, pinning his rider under him.. They were going down a muddy-ish slope and he just fell over. 

The rider was okay but everyone felt it was a lucky escape. The owner said that maybe he twisted his back during that fall. I think it is a chicken or egg scenario: did the fall cause his current problems or did the problems he has cause the fall? Or, is it completely unrelated: I mean, horses do fall, it's just that this feels pretty extreme.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Please don't hate me -- PLEASE.

If Boo truly weighs ~1,100 and truly is only 14.3H at best, geez lahweez, his diet is all wrong. I am sorry he is on starch overload for a horse that needs to lose 200 pounds.

I hate Heiro and I'm sorry about that too, lol When EquiMedSurg first came out with this product, they would not list any of the ingredients. It should come as no surprise that I called them, asking for the ingredients. They refused to tell me, stating ALL the ingredients were "proprietary". I replied the only thing that should be proprietary is the formula and they would not be getting my business.

They are way too up in themselves for my liking. I think the product might work on horses with lesser metabolic issues.

My lameness vet is also up-to-speed on metabolic issues. When Joker foundered, and needed to shed 150 pounds, that lameness vet gave me two options to get the weight off:

1. Thyro-L and a muzzle.
2. The herbal compound "Hot Hoof I" and a muzzle.

I took the herbal route and a muzzle. Here's the link to Dr. Xie's website. Key in your zip code at the left to see if there is any large or small animal vet near you that would get the Hot Hoof I for you. It tastes terrible, I syringed it down Joker 2X/day for three years - he's been in remission since 2015.

https://store.tcvmherbal.com/Default.asp?

I tested the hay AND weighed it when Joker came in at night.

He lost weight but still needed to lose more, so I took him off ration balancers because they use soy as the protein source and back then iron was being added, which no metabolic horse on this planet needs iron added to their feed pan.

Joker gets HorseTechs High Point Vit/Min supplement for grass fed horses. I use straight Timothy pellets as the carrier. 

This ^^^gives Joker nearly all he needs. I've added a couple other things but he lives with the ongoing ravages of serious founder.

Bottom line, ditch all that stuff and --
1. Grass hay, weighed out.
2. Timothy pellets as the carrier (one cup per feeding).
3. Condensed soy-free, no iron added vit/min supplement.
4. Either Thyro-L (prescription) or Hot Hoof I.
5. Extra Vitamin E is also great as long as it's pure (no fillers). I also buy that from HorseTech and feed Joker 3000IU daily.

^^ that is 4-5 simple and low starch things. They will get the weight off, and hopefully keep Boo from foundering as he is founder waiting to happen, if his height/weight is as you say.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I'm no nutritional expert either, but it strikes me with all those nutrients being so far & away in excess, there may well be health probs coming from that - esp too high selenium, potassium, etc. Oh & selenium OD can cause eyesight issues/even blindness, which could possibly explain random tripping. - and at best, just wasted, seems you're adding a lot of unnecessary supplements.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

loosie said:


> I'm no nutritional expert either, but it strikes me with all those nutrients being so far & away in excess, there may well be health probs coming from that - esp too high selenium, potassium, etc. Oh & selenium OD can cause eyesight issues/even blindness, which could possibly explain random tripping. - and at best, just wasted, seems you're adding a lot of unnecessary supplements.


Ditto be mindful of adding too much selenium. Most vitamin E supplements have added selenium. I buy Vitamin E without selenium from HorseTech


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

It's good that he's taking it to a bodyshop, very very good. But I'm still not sure about him driving the trailer in bad conditions. But maybe the weather will cooperate...either way, I hope you guys get Boo there safely, somehow, some way!


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I have an easy-keeper Paso Fino and an easy-keeper Paint mare, and what Boo is eating would likely founder both, and neither have a history of it.
Both are 14.2 and around 900 lbs. The Paint probably weighs a few pounds more as she's wider, but has far less bone, so they're close. We have high selenium here, so no supplements containing selenium!

They eat:
- plain mixed-grass hay. They're out full-time in all weather, and do ok free-choice, but if they didn't, I'd measure and weigh each feeding. Our hay is not fabulous. It's stemmier than most would feed, but they balloon on better-quality hay, and do well on this. As long as it's not moldy and they keep weight on and will eat it, I don't worry much about hay quality-- the stemmier stuff seems to work MUCH better for most horses than the super-nice stuff. 

- 1 lb per day of a ration balancer (right now I use Purina Enrich, but the HorseTech one is nice if your horse is getting too much iron-- that one you feed a lot less than a pound of-- I usually mixed it with about a 1/2 pound of rolled oats)
- stabilized ground flax during the winter
- vitamin E during the winter
- 1/2 - 1 pound plain oats as a 'carrier' for the supplements. This could be cut out if need be. 


That's it. Both are blooming with health, rock-crusher sound on all surfaces, and love life. 

In the summer, they're out on grass but get a ton of exercise and the pasture is native grasses and not overly lush. We keep them off of it until after it's hayed off, so they're not out on it during the spring growth.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Yeah boo is being fed way to much for his size. My 15.2 had quarter horse gets alfalfa cubes 4lbs an 2 lbs of Timothy pellets mixed. A supplement mixed up by horse tech ,to fill in what hay is lacking. Tested hay that's pretty much a filler. 

Hay is fed free choice ,and he's just at 960 for weight. Summer he lives on pasture that's native grass,not sure that will happen summer of 2020. 

To bad you can't transplant fat, boo could donate some to my ice. Would slim boo down, and fatten up my very lean boy.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Well, I have unplugged Boo’s automatic feeder (*SOB!*) pending diet changes. I have read and re-read the posts here, and have tried to respond at least three times but have either been called away to do something or have fallen asleep in the middle of it and woken to find my text deleted.

So much is going on here, but I have re-vamped Boos diet and will post tonight and hopefully get some opinions as to whether or not I am on the right track. 

Meanwhile, no TC 30% for the golden boy. I am mathematically challenged, I suppose: I Thought that 20 ounces - three cups - was WAY less than a pound!


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Take your time responding — you have a lot going on. 

I’m pretty sure everyone on here has had screen freezes and/or fallen asleep when typing and lost everything. It’s a wonder my IPad is still alive, lollol


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Diet aside for the moment (I have dropped the TC30% and the flax completely until after NEE, at least) the big questions are:

Blanketing in the trailer: yea, nay, and how? 

We have an open, three horse, slant-load stock trailer (yes, we are doing it ourselves: more on that later) and he will be in the middle stall with a wall on either side for balance. But the sides are openish and the weather will be quite cold: no snow, but predictions are for 21- 26 degrees F. then add 18 mph winds and wind chill from traveling, and quite cold. 

Boo does not get cold but he doesn't mind a blanket either, though he has not worn one yet this season and has been fine. I was thinking a wicking fleece like a Weatherbeeta with a no-fill turnout sheet over it to cut the wind. He has a Rambo...

And then the tie/no-tie question. Oy.

I have a breakaway halter and some quick release trailer ties. I heard that it does a horse good to be able to lower their head, but I don't want him trying to sneak under the partitions either. 

The trip is four hours, but DH expects it to take much longer as we will be traveling slower than normal and will stop at least once to offer water and give a road bump break.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

1. Let the prevailing weather that day, be how heavy you blanket him. I think the wicking fleece is an excellent idea however 

1.1. Fly mask - put one on him to protect his eyes since the sides are partly open.

2.*Tie him*. Use the quick release ties. My three horses traveled from PA to SoCal then back to TN being tied with quick release ties and it didn't hurt any of them. 

Had Rusty been untied when I had a rear tire blow on my truck going 70 MPH, excessive movement from him being loose could have resulted in him flipping the trailer. As it was, we all made it to TN in one piece and I'm able to tell the story

3. Whew! It's a relief DH doesn't plan to break any land-speed records but be sure everything is gone over in the trailer, including wheel bearings, and that floor looked shaky.

You may have to buy new trailer tires if the trailer has been sitting outside un-used for any length of time - no matter how good the tread is. That's how I blew a tire on my truck on the OK City by-pass right at rush hour ------

4. I just want you to know that I am a nervous wreck for you, mostly because of the weather, partly because DH is driving,


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

This is our trailer with four brand new tires and all lights working well.









And here is the center stall with partitions which I hope are sufficient to keep him upright.









The structure, axles, underlying metal has been inspected and deemed to be no issue, and the floor boards also passed inspection with no problem. There are form-filled mats which go cover the bottom of the trailer.









There are also sway bars which we are gonna use although I don't know quite what they are. They sound important. 

What should I bring?

Coggins and vet information
breakaway halter and a few extra halters and extra leads
first-aid kit with stethoscope
a waterproof sheet and two fleeces
bridle and saddle though I won't be riding
brushing boots
lunge line and lunge whip
brushes and hoof pick
fire-breathing Renegades
hay
hay net
water in cooler to keep from freezing and drinking bucket
quick-release trailer ties
shavings and pitch fork
fly mask to keep ears warm and keep stuff from flying into his eyes???

trailer camera will be installed....


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Banamine - bring Banamine in case he wants to get colicky during the trip. 

Keep your coggins and vet info in your purse or glove box, same for the Banamine.

Do NOT take him out if the trailer for any reason during the trip. He will be just fine in the trailer until he gets to the hospital. Offer him water a couple of times and high tie a hay bag for him. No feed or grains during the ride.

YAY on the new tires and the inspection! They DID inspect and repack the wheel bearings I hope?


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

If you're worried he'll go down, I'd take the dividers out and haul him loose. He can stand however he feels comfortable, and if he does go down, his head won't be tied and he won't get stuck under a divider, so he can either get back up, or you can help him up when you get there.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

On the road... we left at 4:20 - 20 minutes behind schedule - but we are getting there. 
I am not haing fun: DH is great and driving really well, but how how nere-wracking this trailering biz is! 

DH is impressed with the trailer. It tows reay well, really smooth, and is lit up like a banshee with all the lights working and looking fine. 

Boo is squished in! He needs, like, a draft horse sized trailer. I thought about @SilverMaple’s advice to leave him loose and almost went that route, but the winds are quite high and DH was not crazy about him shifting around. And it’s true: he does jump about in his stall quite a bit. And, it seemed so dangerous loose: the trailer walls seem so thin, and as soon as the trailer door is opened, he is right there. So I wedged hi in. He fit yesterday naked, but today, hi is wearing a blanket (19 degrees F) and he barely fits. I really had to mash him, ad he can’t poke his head out at all. He is sort of accordioned up.

We have the camera set up, although it is sort of upside dow, and, two hours into the trip he stil seems okay. Two hours to go!

But I sure hope I never have to do this again!


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

It's great to hear the trailer is doing its job and DH is being a conscientious driver

Prayers and best wishes for a safe round trip and a good outcome


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

On the road... we left at 4:20 - 20 minutes behind schedule - but we are getting there. 
I am not haing fun: DH is great and driving really well, but how how nere-wracking this trailering biz is! 

DH is impressed with the trailer. It tows reay well, really smooth, and is lit up like a banshee with all the lights working and looking fine. 

Boo is squished in! He needs, like, a draft horse sized trailer. I thought about @SilverMaple’s advice to leave him loose and almost went that route, but the winds are quite high and DH was not crazy about him shifting around. And it’s true: he does jump about in his stall quite a bit. And, it seemed so dangerous loose: the trailer walls seem so thin, and as soon as the trailer door is opened, he is right there. So I wedged hi in. He fit yesterday naked, but today, hi is wearing a blanket (19 degrees F) and he barely fits. I really had to mash him, ad he can’t poke his head out at all. He is sort of accordioned up.

We have the camera set up, although it is sort of upside dow, and, two hours into the trip he stil seems okay. Two hours to go!

But I sure hope I never have to do this again!


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Sorry about the double post! Bumpy road... but only
an hour and a half to go!


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## SwissMiss (Aug 1, 2014)

Safe travels!!!!!


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Safe travels there and back! So glad you will have an update on his health concerns soon.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

Fingers crossed for a safe trip there and back and for a firm diagnosis and treatment plan.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Safe travels,glad DH is driving with caution. Prayers for a diagnosis, an safe return trip home. :Angel:


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## WildestDandelion (Apr 4, 2019)

Hope all went smoothly with the drive and you will have more info soon!


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Joining in to wish you safe travels and answers for Boo!


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

DH just woke me up to get coffee and walk dogs at the big service plaza, and I couldn’t believe we were already in Gray!! Only we weren’t: it was the Kennebunk Plaza. We are not even through Biddeford yet. *sigh*

Boo was a star. Everybody loved him, everybody commented on his wonderful manners. He did everything they asked and if he didn’t understand what they wanted he tried anyway. And he nickered every time I went into the barn. One of the techs said, “Usually Haffies are a pain in the butt to deal with.” To be truthful, he’s not always that good at home....

I can’t believe He got back in the Trailer after being lugged four hour this morning, but he did.

As for what’s wrong... well, something most definitely is. But they don’t know what. 

The best working idea is maybe EPM - we have no opossum on our island, but he came from Massachussetts, so maybe. Inability to properly metabolize Vitamin E - a “back burner maybe” Wobbler Syndrome on a further back burner...

He wa deemed to be “off but “serviceably sound” - except for the falling down bit, which means no riding. But I can’t see him as even serviceably sound. They walked him and one of the vets pulled his tail, and they could literally pull him over. Walking up hill he dragged himself up with his forelegs: no power whatsoever from behind.

They are also testing his blood for metabolic conditions like laminitis, but only because he’s a Haffie and I worry about it. But they likes his hoof trim and saw no obvious signs of laminitis

So we are starting to treat for EPM even before the blood tests come back, and then see where he is.


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## WildestDandelion (Apr 4, 2019)

How frustrating to have to wait for results. Did they say how long it would be before those come back?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Captain Evil said:


> They are also testing his blood for metabolic conditions like laminitis, but only because he’s a Haffie and I worry about it. But they likes his hoof trim and saw no obvious signs of laminitis


Fingers x'd that it's EPM then - at least that's treatable. As far as IR/EMS, while some horses, like Haffies for eg are more 'prone', remember, just like in people & other animals, it's not really a 'disease'. It's a natural bodily function in response to chronic 'too much of a good thing'. So IMO, best not to worry about whether or not a horse tests one way or other, and just treat any horse as if they are IR.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

loosie said:


> Fingers x'd that it's EPM then - at least that's treatable. As far as IR/EMS, while some horses, like Haffies for eg are more 'prone', remember, just like in people & other animals, it's not really a 'disease'. It's a natural bodily function in response to chronic 'too much of a good thing'. So IMO, best not to worry about whether or not a horse tests one way or other, and just treat any horse as if they are IR.


I kind of conceptualize it as being similar to diabetes. Anybody can develop it, but certain body types and certain lifestyles make it more likely to materialize. I consider Boo kind of “pre-laminitic” just because of his breed and body type, coupled with his, rich and idle lifestyle. Don’t know if that is quite a good analogy, but...

They said he was not overweight, but I still think he is.

Thatwas my awkwardly phrased way of saying, “yeah.” Treating him as though he has laminitis is the best way of preventing it.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

We treat our previously foundered mare as if she still is foundering - and it has paid off as she has not foundered again! Glad there is some thoughts that what he has is treatable - and that treatment is starting. And if not there are always more blood tests to be run.

I am so happy DH stepped up and got on board with taking him - your trailer is a nice trailer and now you know it is sound you can take Boo wherever he needs to go to get better.

Keep us posted


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

@carshorn - DH totally stepped up! He worked hard to get the trailer safe, installed a trailer camera, drove all the way down, slept in the truck while they worked with Boojum, and then drove all the way back with no complaining at all, just did it. 
@wildestDandylion - It will take 7-10 days for the tests to come back, and the vets said the EPM test is not infallible. The vets want to start treating anyway, as seeing his reaction too the meds may be helpful in settling on a diagnosis. And yes, @loosie, I really hope that it is EPM since that is theoretically treatable. The extent to which horses recover is, I guess, uncertain, but at least there are treatments. 

He will be on a drug called Rebalance, plus Gastrogard and Bute. The Gastrogard and Bute are for the first ten days, then they drop off and the Rebalance goes on for a minimum off 30 days. There was another drug which acts more quickly, but it is $2500.00 a month, so we opted for this route.

There were three vets who looked at Boojum, and I think they were all good and thorough, but there were two things that happened that disconcerted me. In the very beginning the newest vet was listening to his heartbeat, but she was puzzled as it seemed to be normal, then faster, then back to normal. But she wasn’t sure, so said she would have another vet listen to it also, but I don’t think anyone did. In a horse that falls over I thought that was important.

Then, after all the exams and bloodwork and an x-ray of his neck, one of the vets was summing up their findings, and said that he was pasture sound and “serviceably” sound. So I said, “What about his falling down?” She was surprised: she hadn’t heard about that. “I wish I’d known that!” she said. “No riding.” 

OMG! I put it on at least two forms and talked with the intake person (who is very nice, BTW) and to the first ‘heartbeat listening’ vet, but somehow, it never made it to this vet and maybe not to the other senior vet either. The falling down bit was the major reason for the vet visit! Had he just been lame, I doubt very much we would have gone given all the trailering paranoia I have.

I don’t know if I put it in a previous post or if I put it in a post that got deleted when I fell asleep, but Boojum actually fell down on his previous rider. WHAM! Pinned her right underneath him but fortunately she was okay, just banged up a little. She said they were walking down a muddy bank and that is why it happened… (Always there’s a reason with Boo - it’s muddy, he’s not paying attention, he’s excited…)

But there it is. We went and I’m glad we did.

I don’t know if anyone is interested in the report they sent, but I will attach it anyway. Interpreting such reports is not within my area of expertise, but I am pretty sure I got the gist of it: something is wrong with his caboose and it is probably neurological in nature. Whatever “it” is, it has rendered him unfit for riding; at least for the present. He’s pasture sound, but that’s all.

Well, I can't figure out how to attach a file, so I will just copy it here: sorry for the length!

















This page wasn't part of the report, but I had to decipher the terms used...


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Oh my goodness @Captain Evil! What an ordeal. I have no idea what the test results mean, for now or future, but I applaud your huge effort to find an answer and I pray you get a means of healing for Boo!


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

YAY a thousand times for DH stepping up in such a grand way!!!!! He really does love you:Angel::Angel:

In addition to the traditional approach of caring for Boo, please consider investigating a holistic vet who is *well versed* in Chinese medicine and acupuncture.

When Joker *re-broke* his sacrum last spring, he was very close to being sent on to his ancestors. The traditional vet put him on Methocarbomol (sp?) until the holistic vet (with 20+ years of practice in Chinese medicine/acupuncture) could get here and start working on him; she is also Joker’s chiro.

The bottom line is that I have an 11-25-19 video of Joker walking out like hardly anything is wrong.

If Boo has neurological issues, there is a chance combining Eastern medicine with the current, traditional, approach can further help his comfort level. He still may never be able to be ridden again but he would be more comfortable, therefore much less stress on him mentally and physically


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Don't know if anyone mentioned this. I read where the farrier was surprised that there was more heel growth than toe growth which was unusual for the horse.


The only thing I'm aware of that causes the heel growth to exceed the toe growth is more blood to the heel than the toe. The only thing I'm aware of that reduces blood flow to the toe is a rotation of either the hoof capsule or coffin bone. Even if ever so slight, the blood flow to the hoof wall in that area will be compromised to some extent with a reduced growth of hoof wall in that area.


I'm talking subclinical laminitis.


My laminitic horse found immediate comfort with Steward Clogs. He still does. They are attached to the bottom of ScootBoots in order for his hooves to be trimmed and inspected etc more often than 4 weeks. ie, almost daily.



Thin soles also go hand in hand with laminitis. That can cause more ouchyness.


my 2cts


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## HnA Tack (Mar 15, 2013)

I have to ask - after all that, did any of the vets consider PSSM1?? Haffies have it quite often in their bloodlines. It is only $40 to test through a lab like Animal Genetics. In your first post, (at least I think it was the first one, I just read all the posts in this thread), you listed several things that were evident with him. Unexplained lameness/sensitivities are a big one. Weird muscling at times. Inability to pick up & hold feet for the farrier, especially the hind feet. Standing slightly camped out. Bucking is a big one too due to muscles hurting. There are SO many symptoms that they "can" have - not all have the same ones. Also, so many are also laminitis prone. So I would definitely pull some tail hairs & send them in. You'd have that answered at least & they are fast getting the tests done. (if he is a mixed Haffie, then maybe would need to test for PSSM2 variants but to my knowledge, full blooded ones only pass PSSM1 on.


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## HnA Tack (Mar 15, 2013)

I was just reading this thread https://www.horseforum.com/horse-health/information-myopathies-pssm1-pssm2-mfm-rer-772025/ and according to that, Haffies CAN have P2 also.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

@Hondo ~ Boojum doesn't seem to be ouchy in the feet, but they do look a shade different to me: they used to be absolutely the same size and now it almost appears as if the right fore is a bit bigger. 

Two vets at NEE independently commented on his nice farrier work (one called it his 'shoeing job' even though he is barefoot)and they tested him with hoof testers (which I know isn't the best test) and he seemed fine. He has dark marks up near the apex of his frog which look like stone bruises to me - the farrier is coming today and I will try to get some photos. I thought of getting some cushioned boots, and I really like the "soft rides" but that is gonna have to wait a bit until more $$$ come in.
@HnA Tack ~ say what? I was just on another tread about that. I used to feed my Percheron a high fat diet as a preventative, but fear my Haffie would ballon out of existence. I used a combination of oils, Omegatin, BOSS, and ground flax to keep his fat high. 

But some of the symptoms listed for PSSM absolutely fit Boo. Trotting, he actually crossed his hind legs over each other. I'll do some more reading. I like that diagnosis better than EPM...


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Did they say how long before you notice a difference if it is EPM with him taking meds?


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## 3Horses2DogsandaCat (Apr 19, 2016)

PSSM was going through my head too as I was reading your post, especially if the EPM test is negative. I recently enlisted my Haflinger in a PSSM 2 genetic study through Equiseg. They are studying genetic mutations that cause PSSM 2, and according to their research, many Haflingers have a genetic mutation called K1. My Haflinger tested positive for the mutation. They are still recruiting Haflingers for the study, and the test is free if you are accepted. I copied Paul Szauter's post for you here. He is the researcher leading the study. 



"We're still recruiting Haflingers. Email [email protected] with the number of horses and your postal mailing address, thank you."


I would also do the PSSM 1 test through Animal Genetics if I were you. 



Good luck!


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## 3Horses2DogsandaCat (Apr 19, 2016)

I wanted to add Equiseg's website in case you are interested in their research. 



Welcome | EquiSeq


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

I am interested - thank-you! How do they collect samples from the horse?


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## 3Horses2DogsandaCat (Apr 19, 2016)

You start by sending them around 30 mane hairs that you pull out. They might also request a blood sample as part of the study. My vet collected it, and I shipped it overnight to Equiseg. They reimbursed all charges related to the blood draw and shipping.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Boojums medications for EPM have arrived - 









- along with the test results, which indicate that he does not, in fact, have EPM. No sign of it. 

This seems odd, as I have read that 85% of horses tested, show positive for exposure to EPM, with 1% of those horses developing clinical signs. Boojum was born in Maryland and sold at auction as a yearling in Ohio, so he had plenty of opportunity to come into contact with opossums and their infected fecal matter.

His vitamin E levels are above normal so the vet said I could drop the supplementation if I wished to save some $$. Normal levels are 2-4, and he is at 6, so he is absorbing it okay.

He does not have Cushings. His glucose is good, but he is a shade high in insulin (high normal is 42, he is at 44) and in Leptin?? (normal is 10 and he is 12.5). He is not at the Soak the Hay point, but she advised me to watch his diet. 

He is also a shade high in selenium. Maine hay usually has no selenium and I don't supplement, so I will track that down and figure out how to lower it.

She said that all the testing shows him to be a perfectly normal horse in good health, except that he has definite signs of neurological dysfunction, which she said is real, and is significant enough to render him absolutely unrideable.

I am still having him tested for PSSM, as @3Horses2DogsandaCat suggested - I mean, it can't hurt, right? - although the vet said she saw no signs of it and that I am "doing the diet anyway." I am not sure about that, but there it is.

So she wants me to treat him for EPM for a month to see if his peculiar gait improves as the tests are imperfect and that is her best guess as to what is wrong. After that, she said we can try Caudal?? injections (neck) or start thinking about Wobbler's, and possibly Fibrotic Myopathy, whatever that is. 

I am becoming more fluent in weird and scary horse conditions than I ever, ever wanted to be.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I don't have anything helpful to say, but I've been following this from the beginning, and I hope you find some answers and your horse gets better...


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

@ACinATX . Thanks! Me too!

Here is a copy of the report, just because...


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## 3Horses2DogsandaCat (Apr 19, 2016)

I hope you get an answer or an improvement in his condition. I know how frustrating it can be to not have a definite diagnosis.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^What she said. Did the vet have any ideas about possible cause & more specifics of 'neuro dysfunction'? You need Dr Bowker! He is an neuro biologist as well as lameness/hoof person.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Captain Evil said:


> Fibrotic Myopathy, whatever that is.
> 
> I am becoming more fluent in weird and scary horse conditions than I ever, ever wanted to be.


1. Might as well test for PSSM, that way you will know one way 9r the other.

2. Google “fibrotic myopathy”. Your vet may be onto something with that. There are several good articles but I was having issues opening them.

Merck has a great article but like everything written in “Merck-ese ”, you have to be a Rhodes Scholar to understand it.

The Horse.com has a good 2018 article but it’s one of the ones I couldn’t get to completely open.

3. You have my sympathy and empathy. When Duke developed metabolic issues in 2007, I learned way more about them than I ever wanted to. Then when Joker became IR & foundered in 2012, imagine my surprise/shock, and it was back to researching again.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

how very frustrating! I hope you find some clarity in the situation soon.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

First off, very happy your hubby stepped up & you guys got Boojum to the vet. I know that was stressful being unsure of the plan/transport situation. 

I’m sorry you didn’t get a definitive answer, but you are taking the steps & you have sort of a direction now. 

I know it’s super frustrating still not knowing EXACTLY what is going on. I hope he gets some relief & you also get more of an answer. Researching is definitely good. Maybe look into a specialist who knows about neurological issues more in-depth? I know there may not be many around. I’m so sorry you are going through this, especially when you wanted some answers. But you are doing the right thing, & ruling out a few things which is good too! :hug:


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Although it doesn't make any practical difference as Boojum should still, I think, be treated as an insulin-high horse, I question the Insulin values given in the report. 

'It says that "horses on pasture or hay prior to testing may have a higher insulin concentration than a fasted horse."

~On hay or pasture insulin >50uU/ml is supportive of insulin dysregulation
~Fasted overnight, insulin >20 uU/ml is supportive of insulin dysregulation

0-42 is normal and he is 44

~But ~ he had hay timothy hay in a net the entire four hour ride down, and then was given one or two flakes of rich looking alfalfa hay is his stall, which he had for his entire stay there. They drew blood toward the end of the visit, so, wouldn't that affect his values?

I know the vet wants me to be very aware of insulin. I asked her if the ReBalance tasted bad, and if I could give him one tiny, wafer-thin peppermint candy, having (at a mere 5.6g sugar) as a reward for taking his medicine, and she said, "Buy sugarless!"


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

I'm gonna try to put some videos here of Boo's funny walk, but I am not sure it will work..

They are not great videos, since I used an iPhone and was alone, but I hope they will show folks what I am talking about when I describe it as a "stompy" walk. There are some trots also. Here are the walks... let's see if they work..


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Well, I messed those up a tiny bit... here are the trots. Short, but...


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

I can’t see them. I think you may have to into your you tube account and be sure you allowed them to be publicly viewed. It tells me I have to sign in


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

You need to change your settings on YouTube to unlisted. Must be on private video link isn't working.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Oh yew! I put them on private to take my mane off, but instead I guess it hid the. I'll change it and try again. Thanks. You tube!!


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

The walks, take 2













Do these work?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

How is he on his sharp and short 180 degree turns walking?


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Kind of slow and clumsy, but not, I think, abnormally so.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I can see he's wobbly in the hind end. Did the clinic do x-rays? Since they cannot pinpoint a neurological reason maybe it's physical. Like a broken hip at some point in his life that didn't heal properly.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

JCnGrace said:


> I can see he's wobbly in the hind end. Did the clinic do x-rays? Since they cannot pinpoint a neurological reason maybe it's physical. Like a broken hip at some point in his life that didn't heal properly.


^^^A fracture somewhere was my thought after I could see the videos.

At the walk, that is sort of how Joker moved on the backend when he refractured his sacrum last spring.

Joker has never gone down, however — BUT Boo could have a sciatica issue that catches him at certain times. 

Joker is sickle hocked, base narrow, so it could have predisposed him to SI issues as the article states, before he first fractured his back in 2007.

This is a good article on sciatica in horses. There are many more on the Net as well.

https://thehorse.com/17720/sacroiliac-joint-pain-in-horses/

*Still feed him as if he were insulin resistant:*
1. His body does not need to carry excess weight.
2. His breed makes him predisposed to it. 

Joker is in IR remission but not before he foundered. Try keeping the front hooves together and keep the back end working at the same time. It’s the horse version of Humpty Dumpty:frown_color:

Did they also check Boo for tumors back there but I tend to agree with @JCnGrace that there’s an old break or tear back there.

Go to my post #35 on this thread. https://www.horseforum.com/general-...-2019-friday-night-conversation-810651/page4/

This was Joker on 11-25-19 after 8 months of intensive therapy. It’s nothing short of a miracle that he is walking this good. He still has a hitch in his backend that will always be there. Note the arthritis hump above the tail dock.

He wears custom shaped orthotic steel shoes on the back, which has helped tremendously. Then there’s all the custom work on the front hooves for the old founder.

Keep in mind joker is a Tennessee Walker, so the head Bob you see on him is a healthy head Bob. It’s exactly what he should be doing. It’s tough with Walking Horses to figure out when the head bob is from pain and is normal when you first have them, but I have really gotten good at figuring that out down through the years with Joker, lollol


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

In the last video where I experimented with slo-mo, it almost looks as though he is about to fall down there. His hips drop so far...

They did not x-ray his hind end, but saw that his back was sore right where the back joins the caboose... the loin? Yes, the loin. They did x-ray his neck and found a little bit of arthritis.

Meanwhile~









Happy New Year!


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## 3Horses2DogsandaCat (Apr 19, 2016)

It's too bad they didn't x-ray the sore area. He does look wobbly, poor thing.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

I have used several of Dr. Xie’s herbal compounds but that’s not why I am providing the link.

https://store.tcvmherbal.com/Default.asp?

Key your ZIP Code in the left-hand bar and see if there are any equine vets that are chiropractors and hopefully do acupuncture. The folks on this website are generally a few cuts above the norm. 

My vet/chiro has been a student of Chinese medicines for at least 25 years. She is head shoulders above anybody in my area.

Meaning, an above average chiro (hopefully versed in Eastern medicine) could possibly find Boo’s issues in one visit. 

I used red light therapy and vibrating massage therapy on Joker, forty minutes every day for eight months but I used the equipment where the chiro told me to - placement was not a willy-nilly guess and sometimes the neck was involved.

Full use of Boo may never be possible but he may be able to be rehabbed to give small children 15 minute happy horse memories if he is good with them. I never thought it would be possible to ride Joker again but I can tell by watching him move, I could get on him bareback and take him one trip around the three acre fence rail.

This is one of those things where any number of issues could be the problem, or it could be a couple of things that are the problem and it’s frustrating trying to figure them out. I am still not discounting the vets idea of fibrotic myopathy. 

I feel like, after all the test you have had run, that you really would benefit from a vet chiropractor that is well studied and eastern medicine. I think that kind of person might pick up on something the others are not seeing.

Have you started drinking yet LOL LOL


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I don't remember if you said, so have you had a chiropractor out to adjust him? Skippy injured himself, have no idea what he did, and he was moving off like that. We started him out on Banamine and Methocarbamol for a week and then had the Chiro adjust him. He was WAY out in his sacrum and hips. Dropped his hip way down when moving and when standing it was obviously lower on one side than the other. He's seen the Chiro 3 times now and is back to doing his airs above the ground and showing off for the ladies. He was another case of "obviously has some neuro signs but not hugely off", so we held off on the EPM testing and meds. He's come back fine with just the anti-inflammatory and muscle relaxers + Chiro adjustments. 

Skippy was winging his feet out behind, short striding, stompy in the back and tripping over his toes in the front, but not going down. He was out from his poll to his dock, so once the chiro got into him, he improved immensely.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Oh, you all give me some hope! 
@walkinthewalk & @DreamCatcher ~

Boojum has been seen by a chiropractor who said he was great, but my vet wanted me to see another on. It is a long way away, so I will check the link you provided site for someone who might come here and who might be more savvy about movement issues. 

And what you said about 15 minute rides to kids... why, we have an excellent therapeutic riding stable not a mile from here, who have been drooling over Boojum ever since he arrived. If he improves to the point that he might be semi-sound and won't stumble or fall down, I think a donation might be a glimmer on the horizon. I would have to work a bit more on mouthiness, and their two Fjords are abysmally fat... Hmmm.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Quote: Obesity has fatal consequences and *causes* severe, debilitating and painful symptoms. Next to colic it *causes* the most equine fatalities of any equine disease in the UK - yet it is 100% preventable. Being overweight is *one* *of* the most serious problems a *horse* can have. End Quote


Bold words by author.





https://www.bluecross.org.uk/fat-horse-slim


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

The problem with the therapy program is, while they might take good care of a horse, their funds are limited and they aren’t in a position to take great care of a horse that is special needs. The fact that they have two Haffies that are already overweight sends a message 

I was going to use my Arab in a therapy program at one point but they wanted me to relinquish ownership of him and I wouldn’t do that. One of the reasons is that he was a special-needs horse and I knew they wouldn’t take care of him correctly. 

Hopefully you can find someone on that link in your area, or that will travel, that is well-versed in Eastern medicine. That means they have spent a lot of time learning where and what the Meridian lines are, and the location of the acupressure points along those Meridian lines. It is eye-popping to watch the results sometimes.

If not, I would ask anyone on that list if they know of someone versed in Eastern medicine, even if it’s a dog/cat person I would still talk to them. 

My chiro is advertised as dog and cat only. She has her own horses and started out working on horses years ago (including mine in 2004) but stopped because dogs & cats were safer.

If possible, could you get a little longer video of Boo walking? From the side and from directly behind but with his tail tied up so we can see his beehind more clearly?

There’s stuff you can do to help him, including the possibility of orthotic shoes, but without knowing where his hot spots are, I feel like his issues are too serious to give my thoughts.

For sure start his IR diet. If he is a bit high on selenium, HorseTech will custom make condensed vit/min supplements. I feed their stock supplement for grass fed horses that is soy-free & grain-free and does not have added iron. You could use straight Timothy pellets as a carrier.

That would be it for now unless the vet would give you the green light on additional pure Vitamin E (no added selenium) which HorseTech also sells.

Add Boo’s hay allotment, white salt, 24/7 fresh water and you’re done with the feed part, unless future blood tests indicate otherwise

Also keep the farrier coming every 4-5-6 weeks, depending how fast and how wonky his hooves grow. I’ll bet his back hooves and frogs are growing in really strange ways. They shouldn’t be let go to the point a farrier can’t make progress keeping them in shape.

I can’t remember what you said about a farrier - did you say you have a new farrier that works with the vet on Boo? It is crucial for the farrier to have some therapeutic schooling, in order to co-ordinate hoof care with body care


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## Feathers7 (Jun 11, 2019)

> ...rich looking alfalfa hay...


Since this has touched on the subject of diet, there's a habit that needs to be broken here: The physical attributes of pasture/hays/forages convey little to nothing about their nutritional makeup and value. I mean, apart from being able to identify the plant itself. You can tell whether mold is present, and that DOES matter. But you can't tell whether the forage is 'rich' or not just by looking at it. If I remember correctly, the only physical attribute that Dr. Kellon lists as meaningful... is color; whether the forage is very 'green' or not. If forage (pasture/hay) is green and retains some of that green by the time the horse ingests it, it usually contains good amount of Vitamin A. (Meaning you likely do not have to supplement it!) That has nothing to do with sugar/starch/fat/protein. In fact, the more the grass has to try to survive, the more sugary it will be. Cold/snowy/overcast weather, and overgrazed pasture will have a ton of sugar. It can be as brown as it comes and still contain sugar.

As you get to know your forage, there might be a few correlations you can make between which cutting it is and the nutritional content it might hold. But you'd have to test at least a few times in order to know that.

Was that alfalfa a 'mix hay?' If so, the hay part of it might be sugary. But alfalfa is a legume and tends to contain more protein (and fat? I think) than sugars. Still, alfalfa and grass hay come in close on ESC, not so much on starch. I'd say the timothy hay was responsible for the insulin response. He might be better off with a _little_ alfalfa, depending on how your timothy hay tests. Timothy hay also tends to absorb a lot of iron in higher levels than are appropriate for a horse to have. But it's possible for many plants to do that. Only way to know is to test your forage.

https://thehorse.com/110110/all-about-alfalfa/
https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2019/10/02/insulin-problems-forget-about-nsc/
(Remember, ESC and starch cause insulin to rise. NOT NSC.)
Alfalfa vs Grass Hay - WSC, ESC, Starch...etc.

Lastly, you mentioned that he's high on selenium. If this is not coming from your forage, it's either from the pasture, your supplements (very common,) or your water. Be sure and check your water! Water holds more minerals than we think it does and can have a major effect on diet balancing. Dr. Kellon once told a story about standardbreds that kept 'tying up' because of the water in various places they were kept. Sometimes they had sufficient magnesium, and sometimes not.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Great diet information^^^^^. 

Ack, I forgot about water, re the selenium. 

Might want to have your water tested for minerals. High iron is the most common issue, which depletes copper and zinc. I didn’t think about selenium.

Too High or too low selenium can really make a horse sick. I don’t think that’s what caused Boo’s back end to do what it’s doing, but it could be exacerbating it.


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## Feathers7 (Jun 11, 2019)

(( Clarification: I meant to say 'not NSCs in general.' Starch and ESC fall under the NSC (non-structural carbohydrate) category. The point was that it's unrealistic and very difficult to count the entire NSC category toward a forage or hay's suitability for an IR/Cushings horse. It can make one pass up otherwise fine hay or forage, and make the process of providing food for your horse more difficult than it needs to be. Hopefully everyone got that out of Dr. K's article, which has been generously shared around HF quite a bit. ))


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

So much into here! Thanks everyone. Much to think about.

First, I know now why I am not a vet. How the heck do you get 40 mls of liquid down a horse's gullet when said horse is not inclined to have 40 mls of liquid put down his gullet? Boojum does this water-fountain imitation which is pretty impressive. I think I end up wearing more of this stuff than he imbibes! At least it smells okay, so people probably think I am wearing some weird Downeast perfume, rather than walking around in horse spray.

Since I can't photograph myself, I have included an artist's rendition of how it seems to go...









Anyway, diet. Big subject, and not one that was really addressed at New England Equine, other than the vet saying, "Don't change anything." Then, after the report came in, she said I could drop the Vitamin E to save $$ and should try to track down and lower the selenium. She said it wasn't dangerous, but high. When I asked about PSSM being a possible problem for Boojum, she said probably not, but that I was feeding him a "PSSM Diet" anyway, so that as that.

As for the hay,


Feathers7 said:


> The physical attributes of pasture/hays/forages convey little to nothing about their nutritional makeup and value.


Feathers7 ~ I know, you are right; all I really meant by "rich-looking alfalfa" was that he was eating hay consistently right up until his insulin blood test, so that the 44 he scored might be at the high end of his insulin range, rather than the norm. But as I said, it doesn't matter in practice, as we're all agreed he needs to be treated as an insulin-resistant horse. 

Selenium... oy. Maine is SUPPOSED to be selenium deficient. I had his hay tested again this year, and I got the big-deal complete test, but I did not realize that selenium was a separate test, and not included in the all-inclusive. So. I do not actually know how much selenium is in his hay, or in our water for that matter. I've always just assumed that it was negligible.

I think it is coming from the TC 30%. So, back to the huge topic: diet. I think I gotta simplify. A lot. This is gonna take a couple of posts, so God Bless any of you who can hang in there...


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Diet: Chapter One

I use feedxl.com to help me figure out what I should do with Boojum, and I think it has driven me round the sanity bend. Basically, this is how his 12 pounds of hishay looks after being fed into feedxl's site:









Obviously, selenium is a big question mark.

So then I go to ration balancers to take care of the major deficiencies. These are the choices feedxl lists as being appropriate for an horse of Boo's description (mature, 13 year old gelding, not in work, no pasture, 1100 pounds, moderately fleshy, needs to lose weight ~ and I included just for safety: insulin resistant, Cushings, laminitis & PSSM).

Here are their suggestions:

Triple Crown 30% fed at 808.5 g

HorseTech for Earth Song Ranch Custom blend for Healthy Horses & Hooves 244.5 g

Masters Circle Base fed at 247.5 g

SmartVite Thrive Pellets fed at 310.7 g

SmartPak SmartEssentials Pellets fed at 420.7 g

SmartVite Perform Pellets fed at 303.1 g

SmartVite Thrive Senior Pellets fed at 310.7 g

HorseTech High Point Grass fed at 254.0 g

SmartVite Perform Senior Pellets fed at 303.1 g

So, since I am familiar with Triple Crown 30% and it is readily available, I went with that. So at the rate of feed they suggest, Boojum's feedxl chart looks like this:









808.5 g is like, 5 cups!! That is a lot of supplement. And check out the Selenium: 184%.
(For those of you who know what all this means...) 








Here is what Triple Crown recommends: (okay, this attachment went down below. It is the gray box in attached thumbnails.









So, not too bad, right? Throw in a salt lick and maybe a tsp of iodized salt, some extra vitamin E and Bob is your uncle. 

But... then the tigers appear. If you go to the "Health" tab in feedxl, you will see that this diet is totally inadequate. 

[/ATTACH]

No hyaluronic acid, no MSM, no chondroitin sulfate, no glucosamine, basically no biotin.

And this is where I went crazy with the supplements.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Diet: Chapter Two

This is where the story gets dark. 

This is where I slip off the rails into the murky underworld of Supplements. 

This is where I get visions of @Foxhunter hopping across the Frog Pond to administer a Cupis Ball to clean out my foggy brain.

It starts out honestly enough: add salt. And why not make some of it iodized salt to take care of that little iodine deficiency? So, add in 1.5oz iodized salt and make sure that there are salt licks available. Non-mineralized salt licks. Now add in Vitamin E, because he is a Haflinger and it is the right thing to do. AniMed makes one with added folic acid which takes care of that little niggling issue of low Folic Acid. Add in 1 oz. The graph now looks like this:









The graph is awesome. But it has done nothing for the Health stuff. We need more.

Biotin! OMG we absolutely need biotin. No hoof no horse! Farrier's Formula Double Strength is my go-to... add it in! 1000 pound horse = 85 grams. We are now at 22.2 somethings of Biotin. Could go higher, but we'll stop here.









The other deficits are pretty confusing, so we're gonna go with the Shotgun Method of supplementation. Add in SmartCombo Senior Ultra pellets. 120 grams. Hah! That got 'em!

Now here's the chart:









..and the scary Health tab is also looking mighty fine:
















Now, I need a carrier to administer these supplements, so I use 1/2 a pound of alfalfa cubes a day, soaked and split into two feedings. 

Now, mind you, I would also like to add in some coat supplements, such as Glanzen 3 or Gold as Sun, but I try to restrain myself, and I did not include the Heiro anti-laminitis supplement because I was too embarrassed to do so. 

So here is what his diet looks like:









Chart with alfalfa cubes:









A little concerned about the iron levels??


So Kudos to anyone who has slogged through this morass of convoluted reasoning, and I am NOT easily offended, so ... have at it.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

1. I have just read the charts - and - have - taken - two - Excedrin.

1.1 I tip my hat and a huge pitcher of Kahlua & cream to you - maybe you have not started drinking but those charts have me off the drinking wagon:smileynotebook::winetime::winetime:

2. How did Feed XL come up with the numbers for your hay? Did you have your hay tested and put the numbers in or did Feed XL guess based on your zip code?

2.1. Either way, showing 0% selenium is impossible and even more eyebrow raising when your vet mentioned “slightly high” selenium.

3. The iron on the charts is so far in the outer stratosphere that Boo’s copper:zinc levels would be in China.

4. This is one more reason (besides the fact they charge money) that I don’t like Feed XL

****


5. I subscribe to the KISS principle- Keep It Simple Stupid, LoL.

6. If you haven’t had your soil tested ( local co-op can do that) and the hay tested by someone who tests hay for horses, like Equi-Analytical in New York, I would do that “yesterday”

7. Unless the selenium turns out to be a serious issue, I’m thinking Boo will end up being well served by a condensed general vit/min supplement from HorseTech and use Timothy pellets as the carrier.

7.1 HorseTech sells a Vit E supplement without selenium.

7.1.1. They also sell Bio-Flax for hoof and coat.

8. If it turns out Boo needs a joint supplement, I know for fact Cosequin ASU+ does a terrific job for Joker. Try a small container first because it gives Rusty the runny bums, I have to find something else for him.

9. Feed a good pre-probiotic without worthless fillers. Probios is good. Gut Werks is good.

I have learned ration balancers don’t work for my horses way too many calories; the word “thrifty” was stamped in their foreheads when they were born. Also, unless the bag says the product is a “fixed formula”, the company can put any rot gut part of the plant in the production process they want.

The End, lollol


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

@Captain Evil wow, you're still standing after all of that? My eyes are crossed just from skimming.

But seriously, you are doing awesome work.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Today finishes day 6 of Boojum's medications, and it is the fourth day that everything has gone smoothly and I haven't been coated in Rebalance. It is so discouraging to be plying him with drugs for a condition he probably doesn't have. Tonight he tripped going out of the barn but caught himself before hitting his nose on the snow.
@walkinthewalk & @ACinATX ~ Nobody should have to deal with those charts without a pitcher of Kahlua. Pity poor me: I had to do them purely on coffee, since I get drunk really, really fast. 

This is my third year testing hay with Equi-Analytical and this year I used the hay-borer and got the really big test that covers everything... except selenium. I did not realize that was a separate test. Since his levels came back high I'm gonna send in another sample with 40 more dollars and see what it says. 

I doubt he has PSSM either, but I'm testing for that also. 

I am so frustrated! I am wondering whether I should have gone to Tuft's. The only thing I know for sure after our NE Equine visit is that something is wrong, that it is neurological (they seemed sure) that it is not vitamin E deficiency and most likely not EPM, and that he cannot be ridden now, possibly ever. But what exactly is wrong and what the next step might be...

?????

And I really like this horse. Took a while, but I do, and he is young, only about 12, 13 years old, so I am likely to have a pasture pet for the next 20 years. I'm 62, Boo is my probably my last horse, and I really really wanna ride!!!

When he bucked me off last month or the month before or whenever it was that I decided we were going out and he chucked me off, I really didn't care. Being bucked off was so, so worth the ten minutes of riding we had prior to that.

Obviously, getting bucked off is not anything to be glad about and is a major issue that we would have had to work on, but in all honesty, it felt so good to be up on my own horse that the getting dumped part really didn't matter. And, Boojum waited for me after chucking me into the dirt!!! 

What a good horse!!


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Ok, we are back to square one except this time you at least know some things that are *not* wrong with Boo.

Here’s my suggestion and I think I may have mentioned it early on but I can’t remember - I’m older than you, ya now — 72, lollol

Go to Dr. Xie’s (pronounced Chi) website and key your code in the left hand bar.

https://store.tcvmherbal.com/Default.asp?

Regardless of small or large animal or both, see if there is someone who does acupuncture and holistic medicine near you. If so, call them and ask for how long. Also ask if they are a student of Eastern medicine.

If you don’t get results, call Dr. Xie’s 800 number, and tell them you are in desperate need of someone who is well versed in Eastern medicine in your area.

You should be able to discover someone that way but, if not, PM me your general area and I will ask my holistic vet/chiro/acupuncturist/20+ year student of Eastern medicine if she knows of anyone within 100 miles of you. She is in her 60’s, and has her own horses. Believe me when I say she saved Joker’s life when he refractured his sacrum last March.

The only way I would see Boo not being able to be helped would be if he had some debilitating disease that will only get worse with time, like cancer. Some THING is being missed so it’s time to go way outside the traditional box —- and BTW a thousand bugs to you for not giving up on him


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Day 11 of Rebalance. 

Still working on Chiropractor/Acupuncturist. So far I have contacted four guys. One is not accepting new clients (and he's only 50 miles away! Rats!) But he recommended that I call the same chiropractor that came out before - let's call her Chiropractor A - the one who said Boojum was fine. She is an ex-racetrack veterinarian or chiropractor who now works privately. 

Next one I contacted will come out in January when she is not busy, but it will cost $450.00, minimum, per visit, and she will not be able to see him once she gets busier. 

The next one I called won't come this far but recommended that I call Chiropractor A. 

I still have more to call, but, hmmm.

A negative result for EPM seems like it is a true negative, so I am really wondering about PSSM, and am working on getting him tested for that. I don't think they did a full...CBC?? panel test when they drew blood, so I am wondering about having that done along with PSSM testing and checking his selenium again, now that I have dropped the Triple Crown 30%.

And @walkinthewalk... thanks for the thousand bugs!!



walkinthewalk said:


> —- and BTW a thousand bugs to you for not giving up on him


:grin:


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Captain Evil said:


> .
> 
> And @walkinthewalk... thanks for the thousand bugs!!
> 
> ...


<sigh> I thought I checked everything I typed - the Ipad is always changing my words :|. I’m glad you knew what I meant, lollol

Geez, how distressing to not be able to find a better chiropractor.

I sent you a PM


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

A chiropractor is a good idea, but maybe trying an osteopath too? Just an idea. One that is registered through the IREO of course - not sure if there are any in your area. Hard to find.

The osteopath I use has been super helpful.

https://irequineosteo.org/usa/?fbclid=IwAR3KbAumudI5QrTbGVGf9ygO8rkK8tIgz2wbqqfXcIR0YrgfvidHev7oR7A


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## NeverDullRanch (Nov 11, 2009)

I hauled a horse to a vet check because the seller didn't have a trailer. He couldn't back out of the trailer. It was a real adventure unloading him. Cut to the chase...he was neurologic. I'd noticed some irregularities in his canter but had chalked it up to youth and inexperience. Nope; he'd had a spinal injury. 

Talking with the seller, I learned that the horse had fallen while tied. The trainer routinely tied young horses up for hours on end to teach them to stand quietly. Problem was, he left them unsupervised. No one saw the horse fall or had any idea how long he'd been down.

Radiographs of your horse's NECK (cervical vertebrae) may locate the source of the problem:

"Cervical vertebral myelopathy (CVM, a compression of the spinal cord in the neck vertebrae due to trauma or rapid growth), sometimes called wobbler syndrome, can also produce an abnormal gait and varying degrees of incoordination and weakness. In addition, the horse might have proprioceptive abnormalities, symmetrical ataxia of all limbs, abnormal reflexes, toe-dragging, and proprioceptive deficits."


https://thehorse.com/148747/is-my-horse-neurologic-or-lame/


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

New England Equine x-rayed portions of his neck and found some small arthritic changes there, which they didn't feel they were too significant. However, with EPM testing as negative and his vitamin E levels fine... Wobbler's is back on the list of possibilities. 

I found one chiro/acupuncturist willing to come this far, but it will be a minimum of $450.00 for one visit, and she said it could be higher if she recommends any herbal supplements. Also, she can't come on a regular schedule as she is just too busy. Osteopaths seem to be clustered in Texas... Wonder why??

So now my tentative plan is to have my vet back out to draw more blood. I think it might be smart to test for PSSM and re-test for EPM & Lyme as well as get a basic CBC panel done, which has not been done to date. I have sent some pulled hairs off th be tested for PSSM but I want a blood test anyway, just to be sure one way or the other.

I want also to ask her about Wobbler's and the possibility of a past broken femur or pinched nerve somewhere. He does have two bottom teeth missing - or maybe one missing and one broken off, I can't remember, so maybe he got kicked hard in the face or neck, or had a bad fall way back when. And, I want to re-visit questions of metabolic issues. I don't really get the connections between laminitis, Cushing's, and IR, and I don't understand the differences in the various PSSM types. But anyway...

Boojum taped at 1049 this evening so he seems to have lost a little weight. I had to double blanket him last night: we had freezing sleet and rain, and then a predicted radical drop in temperature to 9 degrees, so I put a Turbo-Dry under a waterproof no-fill sheet, just to get him dry and keep the chill off, and I had to shorten all of the belly straps. 

And finally, I'm gonna keep looking for a good chiropractor...


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Captain Evil said:


> New England Equine x-rayed portions of his neck and found some small arthritic changes there, which they didn't feel they were too significant. However, with EPM testing as negative and his vitamin E levels fine... Wobbler's is back on the list of possibilities.
> 
> I found one chiro/acupuncturist willing to come this far, but it will be a minimum of $450.00 for one visit, and she said it could be higher if she recommends any herbal supplements. Also, she can't come on a regular schedule as she is just too busy. Osteopaths seem to be clustered in Texas... Wonder why??
> 
> ...


I hope you get some answers from the more test your going to run. Must be frustrating to not have a definite answer to what's wrong.

Go on animal genetics page they have a lot of info on pssm. I don't totally understand the different types of pssm either. 

Sounds like you're getting cold weather also. We are in for snow next few days, I'll take that over ice. 

Keep us updated on boojum.


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## NeverDullRanch (Nov 11, 2009)

For everything you ever wanted to know about Laminitis, Cushings/PPID and IR:
www.thelaminitissite.org


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

@NeverDullRanch Thanks very much for the info!

My regular vet is coming out the end of January and she has promised to bring a chiropractor in tow. I have had no luck finding anyone who will travel here, but my vet says she will drive the chiropractor here herself. I should have the results of the hair follicle PSSM test by then, and depending upon what they find, we will do more blood work.

I am really wondering about a trauma-related injury now: most of the metabolic/neurologic ailments are seeming less likely. Whatever it is, he when he got here in 2016, which is why I had him tested for Lyme right after he arrived. 

He was born in Maryland and travelled to Ohio to be sold with his sister as a two year old, and then trucked back to Maine. Maybe he had some trauma during his travels, fell in the trailer or fell in his paddock... he does have two broken/missing lower teeth, and maybe that is related.

Meanwhile, I have found seven horses who want to come and keep Boojum company... two are Haflingers, one is a gorgeous Dales cross, two are Percheron crosses, one is a paint cross and finally, one is a beautiful mule. If only I had better turnout... 

Ahab and Djinn had an area about 200' by 150' and then a long strip about 300' by 30' leading back to the barn: sort of an "L" shaped turnout. Hardly turnout though, it was all brush and trees and hillocks and hummocks. Ahab and Djinn made little trails through it, but I am really afraid Boojum will stumble or fall and get wrapped around a tree or trapped in some snaggle brush, or eat a poisonous plant. So all he gets is dirt, about 100' by 30', not really big enough for even one horse - not even a small one like Boojum. Also, Ahab & Djinn had unlimited hay to keep them occupied, but Boo is so hungry all the time he will eat anything!


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## NeverDullRanch (Nov 11, 2009)

Regarding diet, let your veterinarian be your guide. Meanwhile you want to avoid tipping the scale (figuratively speaking) toward PPID/IR. "Cushings," my vet tells me, is outdated terminology. At any rate, go easy on treats. Get your hay tested. Give the results to your vet and let him/her determine if it is too high in carbs. Go VERY easy on treats. I used to cut up an apple and split it between my horses at feeding time but that is too many carbs. Now I do the same thing with a CARROT, but if a horse is ALREADY PPID/ER a carrot is too high in carbs. 

I can tell you from bitter experience, a laminitic horse is a MUCH bigger management challenge than feeding a horse a low-carb diet to PREVENT laminitis. And a lot more labor, and a LOT more expen$e. 

Your veterinarian is your and your horses' best friend. The information you get from him/her is worth whatever it costs.


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## 3Horses2DogsandaCat (Apr 19, 2016)

I'm sorry you've got so much on your mind and so few answers. I hope it's not from a traumatic injury since that would be less treatable than a metabolic condition or EPM. 



Did you send the hair to Animal Genetics for PSSM 1 testing? They usually get results back to you really fast. Please keep us posted


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

I just got the e-mail results for Boo’s PSSM1 test: negative for PSSM1. 

I’m thinking now that it must be some sort of nerve damage. If it were a cracked pelvis could he buck so very well? Maybe it is wobblers...?


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

I am disappointed you still don’t have an answer :frown_color:

For sure he can’t be ridden until you have an accurate diagnosis.

A pinched nerve is possible.

I have only seen one horse with wobblers. His symptoms were always present - they were not intermittent. I also don’t know if wobblers is a disease that gets worse with time :|


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## AuG (Aug 18, 2019)

Captain Evil said:


> New England Equine x-rayed portions of his neck and found some small arthritic changes there, which they didn't feel they were too significant.
> 
> And finally, I'm gonna keep looking for a good chiropractor...


I only read the first post and my thoughts were instantly a neck injury. Don't disregard how much these small changes can impact a horse, especially a heavy set type. If you can reduce his weight a bit it could help somewhat. He may also be getting stiff in the box. Do you have any where that you can walk him through knee to shoulder high water? The drag can help balance the use of muscles. If its been bothering him a while, it would be habit for him to move incorrectly regardless of if the pain is reduced. 

Sorry if this has been suggested, I only read the first and last page and hope for the best for you. Good luck in finding a good chiro.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I am so sorry you still don't have a diagnosis for him. :sad: Ugh. Ruling a lot of things out though. I hope you find a good chiro or osteopath, that may help guide you a bit too. It may be nerve damage, that could very well be true. Hugs to you, you are doing everything you can. :hug:


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

so sorry that the diagnosis is still a mystery. Keep at it. I know you will find your answer


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## 3Horses2DogsandaCat (Apr 19, 2016)

I've been checking on here for an update. Sorry to hear you still don't really have an answer.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

My vet is coming out Saturday with the chiropractor she wants Boojum to see. Also, I have rumor of an equine chiropractor/acupuncturist right in the neighborhood! So I feel as though some answers might be just around the corner.

Ruled out:
EPM
Vitamin E deficiency
Cushing's
PSSM1

Possibilities:
Pinched nerve, Wobbler's, etc.
Fibrotic Myopathy
Cracked pelvis or sacrum...
???

Boojum tests high for Selenium and for Leptin levels. I have cut out his Triple Crown 30% supplements for the selenium, but have not yet sent in the second set of hay samples for selenium. Maine hay is supposed to be lacking, but I will re-submit.

He is only getting 10-12 pounds of hay a day, per vet orders, but I worry about that small amount so much. I wondered what people think of this information:

https://gettyequinenutrition.biz/Library/Theoverweighthorsewhowontstopeating.htm

Do I dare?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

That's an interesting link, its maybe one of his problems but it wouldn't explain his other symptoms 

Selenium toxicity usually alerts you by the loss of mane and tail hair and deterioration in hoof health.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Well. My vet brought her chiropractor out this morning to see Boojum, and I think they figured out what is wrong with him. 

They think Boo's sacroiliac ligament is severely damaged. Well, they know it is. 
When the chiropractor pressed on it, the poor horse almost hit the floor. Even I could feel it: one side feels just like a horse's butt, and the other side feels ropey and hard. So all you sacrum problem people out there: good on you, you were right! 

She said he has a lot of scar tissue around the ligament, and that it is probably a very old injury. "They had to have known about this when they sold him to you." But I don't think that they did. He lived out, got chased around by the other horses (he was low man) so he was moving all the time, and then he was barely ever ridden, mostly at a walk. The vet and chiropractor kept saying, "He is in surprisingly good shape--for a Haflinger!" "He is not overweight at all -- for a Haflinger!" 

However, compounding the initial injury is years of compensating for it, inactivity, and a little bit of the "Prince and the Pea" mentality: she says Boo protects himself quite well. So he is flabby and has not built up the muscles needed to correctly compensate for the damaged ligament.

Unfortunately, that ligament cannot be fully healed, but we CAN do stuff to help Boojum re-compensate and build muscle strength. The chiro felt that he could return to being ridden although 4th level dressage will never be within his grasp. That's okay: it is probably not within mine either.

So we have some exercises to do. One involves lifting and then extending backward the right hind leg, which Boojum does NOT like at all. We repeat that 10 times or as many as he will reasonable tolerate up to 10.

Then we lift the left back leg, just to make him practice loading the damaged right side leg. I have to sort of sway him around while the leg is lifted so his right side muscles start working again. Also 10 times.

Then, I go behind and grasp his tail by the root, and lean back. Boo likes that exercise. Once or twice is enough there.

Finally, I get out ground poles, space them roughly two strides apart, slightly weight the right hind leg, and lead him over the poles. When he is well over the last pole, we back all the way up to the beginning of the poles and repeat. We do this 5 times. Once we are 4-6 weeks into that, I can start raising the poles a tiny bit.

She also suggested I talk to my farrier (who she knows) about putting shoes on in the spring, not because he needs them, but for the concussive properties, and to help Boojum tuck his ... uh, his... well, the bony part that is supposed to tip when they move properly.

I have two more week long trips this winter/spring, and then probably a long weekend in May, so I am going to miss some sessions. I hope that won't disturb the outcome...


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Ok. It’s fantastic you have a diagnosis!

1. If you would like, I will PM the link to my therapeutic farrier’s website. If your farrier would like to discuss what she has done for Joker. That would be Joker who who is IR and has severely foundered. Also the same Joker who re-broke his sacrum last March and she custom bent shoes to help relieve the stress off his sacrum. Joker sees the chiro once a month BTW.

2. Also, somewhere in the beginning of this thread, Immay have suggested red light therapy.

I have this one. https://equinelighttherapy.com/

My 6” x 9” pad is 13 years old and still works like new. It was expensive then, it’s expensive now but it’s all American made, just outside Nashville, TN.

The red light therapy helps a LOT. It also helped heal my leg when I had cellulitis two years ago.

3. No vet will do injections on Joker - none of them. Two of them recommend Cosequin ASU+ (Plus). It’s cheapest as Chewy and Allivet. 

It helps Joker but it gives Rusty the runny bums when I put him on it for diagnosed Dry Hocks.

Rusty does good on pure MSM and Lubrisyn HA, which I think is by Centaur. This could be a Plan B, if Cosequin won’t work. Both these products have credible studies.

3.1. Also, when Joker first re-fractured his back and was in enough pain to drop three Clydesdales to the ground, the traditional vet put him on Methocarbomol for ten days. It started making him itchy after seven days, so I took him off and he was ok on Previcox.

My point to that is store that information in case, heaven forbid, you ever need something really strong for Boo.

4. You’ve got the diet down, so I’ll stay out of that

5. Going back to my Number 1, your farrier. Knowing what I know with Joker, I am thrilled to pieces someone thinks corrective back shoes will help but it has to be done correctly, “akin to brain surgery” for Boo’s particular issues. I know my farrier would be happy to talk to your farrier and probably even show her pictures of Joker’s hooves.

We pulled the back shoes last week to see how he would do. So far he is doing great - able to walk across the gravel drive without hesitation. But my job is to watch how his hooves and frogs grow. Joker is sickle hocked anyway, so his hooves and frogs grow wonky from that, and it’s compounded by his re-fractured back.

He will go back in rear shoes eventually - it just depends how soon he starts twisting himself out of shape, if that makes any sense.

If you’re interested in my farrier’s contact information, let me know


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

It does feel great to finally have a handle on what is going on! Not only that, but the chiropractor seemed to feel that, with work, Boojum could be ridden some time in the future, which is beyond wonderful.
@walkinthewalk~

2. Yes on the red light therapy. Nobody mentioned that, but I can't imagine that it could hurt, and given the nature of his injury I bet it would help, and so many people who use it are impressed, so thank you for mentioning it or re-mentioning it: I'm gonna invest.

1 & 5. The hind shoes (and I would probably talk to my farrier about shoes all around if it came to that) anyway, the shoes are not necessarily therapeutic ~ she stressed that. She said his feet were fine, a non-issue, but she wants him out walking on hard surfaces come spring (i.e. on the tarmac) and she wants to increase the "concussiveness" to his rear end and "stabilize" it. 

I may be misconstruing her meaning, but I think of racehorses who have denser bone and stronger muscles on one side of their body due to always running in one direction, or baseball pitchers who's pitching arms can have bone 1/3 as dense as their non-pitching arm, and much more muscle...

So I am not sure, I guess, if the iron shoes slamming down will increase the impact or whether she wants to stabilize his rear so the exercise is more beneficial. I mentioned his Fire-Breathing Traction-Action Renegades (in Arizona Copper), but things moved on and I didn't really get an answer on that. 

Interesting that Joker is shod behind... Boojum doesn't look "lame" he will walk anywhere, runs, bucks (alot) rolls... doesn't seem to be in pain that way. But push on that ligament and you can see the strength and stability just drain away. The only time he seemed really uncomfortable (and the chiro said that he would be) was when she extended his leg backward. That is one of our exercises and Boojum hates it. A lot.

Another thing that she pointed out is that even when Boo looks square or as though he is bearing weight on both hind legs, he is not. All the weight is on his left hind, and the right hind is just going along for the ride.

She also did something called 'dry needles' where where put four needles in the injured ligament and moved them about a little bit. By the time she left he was bearing weight on it much more than before.

The entire visit was $200.00. My vet would not give me a bill despite the fact that she arranged the visit and drove the chiropractor out here from an hour away. She felt very badly that I had her out twice from day one and she kept saying he was fine. So I made her take $40.00 anyway for gas and coffee. I would have gladly paid her for a regular visit ~ just so happy to have an idea and a plan!

3. Information stored! Thanks!!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Hooray that you have answers. Jingles for a good recovery.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

You won’t regret buying the red light therapy pad. It will earn its keep

Joker is likely, permanently in front shoes with flexible wedge/lily pads and some stuff I call silly putty under the frog part of the wedge. That is for his foundered hooves.

I follow what you’re describing for Boo in terms of shoes:smile:

Just for perspective, the foto below are Joker’s back shoes, in April 2019, when they first went on to help with his refractured back. They came off last week but I know that’s only temporary.

They are steel shoes but I don’t know the brand. If you enlarge the foto, you can see the farrier shaped them with just a bit of shoe hanging over the outside edge of both hooves.

The purpose was to stop him from rolling onto his outside edges — if you have ever seen some children walk on the outsides of their feet, it’s the same principle the way Joker rolls onto his outside edges when he walks. Joker stayed in these shoes until his trim last week. 

We expected him to be sore or stiff when they first went on last year but he walked off, in perfect stride (for him) with never a sore or stiff day. It was happy tears watching him motor across the gravel like nobody’s business.

The farrier also uses copper nails in all the shoes as Joker is prone to anaerobic issues. I spend a lot of time on my head, tending to hooves, LoL


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I am so happy to hear that not only is there a diagnosis there is a plan! and a potential for enough of a recovery that you can ride! And $200 seems very reasonable to me. Can't wait for the updates


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Hey, @Captain Evil! :wave: How good that you have a diagnosis! You know what's ironic? I have a similar injury, contracted at age 21 when riding a horse that someone wanted me to sort, who threw his hind legs up in the air in a sudden leap while I was doing a posting trot on him and coming down at the same time he was coming up with a lot of force! Apparently, MotoX and BMX riders get similar injuries too. For me, it made my lumbar spine vulnerable to spasm because the ligaments attaching the spine to the pelvis got overstretched, and this means nerves can get temporarily pinched if I make a wrong move, and that then causes spasm.

However - what fixes it _entirely_ for me is doing Pilates on a regular basis, because then the muscles in the area are strong enough to compensate. So exercises to support your horse's muscles in that area sound like they're going to be very helpful! 

Just for fun I found this:


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I am so happy to come back to this thread & see that you finally have a diagnosis & a plan for Boo. Yay!!   Now you can help him & it is lovely to hear that he will most likely be able to be ridden in the future. I really hope the exercises help him & excited to hear the updates. You never gave up on searching for answers, & ruled a lot of things out. This is great news.

If you miss a few sessions, try not to sweat it. It's okay. You won't do any harm. He will be okay. Hugs to you!! :hug:


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Yay! I'm so glad you finally have an answer and a plan!


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