# Windsucking.



## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Is the wind sucking affecting her health at all? If not, I was told by my vet that it's not a huge problem if watched. My mare is a cribber/wind sucker and my vet said the biggest problem with wind suckers is maintaining their weight and then the wearing of their teeth. I just keep a careful eye on her and I've had her to 3 years now and never had a health problem or other related problem from the cribbing/wind sucking.

I'm not saying it will work for your horse but it's worth a shot before buying into all of the collars, supplements, sprays, and such. Every horse is different, I would probably start with a Weaver Miracle Collar or like collar. I've had good results with it on other horses, it just doesn't work on my mare..Then you can move to supplements like Quitt or a spray like No Chew (I think there is also a wrap of this)..I've heard of others say pepper spray works..


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

'Wind sucking' is usually defined as a mare that draws air into her vaginal cavity. It is easily 'fixed' by having her sutured. If she has done this for any length of time, she should be infused with antibiotics (the 'shotgun method') or cultured while in heat and then infused with the appropriate antibiotic and sutured after being treated.

The edges of her vulva are removed from each side of her upper vulva (it can be pretty bloody). Most mares need about 1/3 to 1/2 of their vulva open at the bottom of it so they can urinate. The upper part is then sutured together and it literally grows shut.

This will keep a mare from 'sucking air' as she runs or moves around. Any performance mare that is being ridden hard or fast should be sutured. This includes barrel horses, cutting and reining horses, hunters and jumpers, etc. If you expect a mare to perform at a high level, she should probably be sutured.

Once a mare is sutured, she needs to be kept sutured until she is opened up for breeding, sutured back again and opened up for foaling.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Cherie, I suspect the OP is referring to windsucking as in cribbing.


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

I also think cribbing is what she may have been referring to but thank you so much Cherie for the educational information. I had never heard of that before. I love learning!


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

I have a friend whose mare cribs, and she can't wear a cribbing collar because it causes rashes on her sensitive skin. So she bought this stuff, puts it on every surface in her stall where her mare can grab hold and crib, and it works wonders! She's the only cribber in the barn now who doesn't need a collar and NEVER cribs in her stall now!!

Hydrophane Cribox - Disinfecting/Cleaning from SmartPak Equine


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

As far as I have learned, cribbing is not that much physical as psychological. It is commonly caused by extreme stress or long periods of it in the past or present, and cannot be completely cured by collars or anti-cribbing creams/sprays/whatevers. To some horses, it is enough stress to start cribbing even if they are kept stalled for too long (to their opinion, at least). Cribbing can be stopped, if the horse is turned out for as much time as possible, the best would be 27/7, but it applies only to the lighter cases. 

For example, we have two chronic cribbers in our barn. One is a 5yo Latvian draft horse who spent a year of his life with the gypsies, before his current owner got him. Gypsies here are known far and wide for their cruel attitude towards horses, and it seems that this horse has suffered, too, but is now recovering. He is dealing nicely with his fears, and he now cribs only by feedbins, tying posts and such places, but not in the pastures. He, as all our horses, is 24/7 pastured.

The other is an older warmblood gelding who, as a foal of just a few months, was taken away from his mother and stalled for several days, away from all the other horses, while his mother was takan away for a show. He panicked the whole time and suffered mentally to a great level, and since then he has been cribbing almost all the time, even in the pastures, sucking on tree branches and sometimes even other horses!

Also, cribbing might mean that the horse has ulcers or that the rider is too tight on the reins, because cribbing sometimes comes with a noticable tension in the neck, shoulders and poll, and the horse has discovered a way to ease the tension, as extra oxygen intake serves as a way of getting a bit "high". Thus, it sometimes cannot be treated even if all the causes are eliminated, because the horse has gotten into this rather pleasurable habit.

Thus, to find the best treatment, all possible causes must be evaluated. How is his health? Do you know his past, has he suffered from stress, anxiety, fear in prolonged periods of time or in extreme levels? What kind of a rider/handler you are, how long is he stalled daily, what have you done up to now to change something about cribbing? 

Something that has to be reminded, although I hope that to most people it comes naturally - cribbing should never, never be punished. It is just a way how a horse shows that something isn't quite right.

And, as another member already mentioned, the teeth of a cribber have to be monitored carefully, because cribbing changes the way how they are worn out.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

What Saranda said.

I have also heard that cribbing can be caused by copper deficiency.

I would address any possibility of ulcers, look into copper deficiency, and THEN (and ONLY then) put a cribbing collar on. I would also pasture the horse 24/7 and put in a hotwire around 3' from the pasture fence, paint any surfaces I can't fence off (ie gates and sometimes trees) with one of the various cribstop products (but NOT VINEGAR, horses love it) and keep it painted.

The determined horse will learn to windsuck which is cribbing but without grabbing things... that's what the collar is for, to hopefully stop that from happening.

If all else fails, an operation can be done where a hole is cut in the horse's cheek so it can't get the suction to suck down the air. It sounds pretty drastic, and I don't know how they drink (but obviously they do), but making it physically impossible will fix the problem if the horse is absolutely determined it WILL no matter what you do. HOWEVER this operation is not failsafe either as the hole can grow over! (you know, like when you get your ears pierced, and if you leave the piercing out for too long it grows over? same thing)


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

That hole cutting method sounds absolutely awful. I can't even believe that people would do such a thing! :shock:


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## minstrel (Mar 20, 2012)

Cherie said:


> 'Wind sucking' is usually defined as a mare that draws air into her vaginal cavity. It is easily 'fixed' by having her sutured. If she has done this for any length of time, she should be infused with antibiotics (the 'shotgun method') or cultured while in heat and then infused with the appropriate antibiotic and sutured after being treated.
> 
> The edges of her vulva are removed from each side of her upper vulva (it can be pretty bloody). Most mares need about 1/3 to 1/2 of their vulva open at the bottom of it so they can urinate. The upper part is then sutured together and it literally grows shut.
> 
> ...


What?? I've never heard this one. Wind-sucking is a stereotypy where horses bite onto some thing (stable door, fence post, feed or water bucket) and swallow air. Often goes hand and hand with crib-biting. Or, at least, that's the only way I've ever heard it referred to ever before, and I've met and dealt with wind suckers (unfortunately it's a behaviour that other horses often end up copying...).

It's not a particularly nice behaviour, but other than painting your stable door and fence posts with something that tastes foul, there's not much you can do about it. It doesn't actually do the horse that much harm, and they find it something fun to do. Best way to try to avoid it though is to turnout as much as you can, if possible with electric fencing inside of your post and rail, and when stabled to make sure they have plenty of hay and stable toys to prevent boredom (the main initiator of this behaviour). However, don't expect it to stop completely, especially if the horse is bored and/or stressed.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Saranda said:


> That hole cutting method sounds absolutely awful. I can't even believe that people would do such a thing! :shock:


For the good of the horse, if it's windsucking so bad its condition is being affected... idk about you but I'd rather cut a hole in my horse's cheek than watch it starve to death.


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## Adam (Feb 6, 2012)

blue eyed pony said:


> For the good of the horse, if it's windsucking so bad its condition is being affected... idk about you but I'd rather cut a hole in my horse's cheek than watch it starve to death.


Can windsucking cause a horse to starve? I've been around a few horses that do it, and although I am aware of the increased risk of colic, I'd not heard about it causing starvation.... 

If you go to try the collar, be sure to put it on properly. If it is not put on with the correct tightness, or position (which is surprisingly easy to goof up), the collar won't work.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

It can, if it's bad enough, because they fill up their stomach with air, feel full, and don't eat. Most of them aren't that bad, and the majority of vets won't do the surgery unless there is the threat of a horse dying because of the habit.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*windsucking*

I've owned 3 windsuckers over the years - they all did it before I bought them and one was a 8 month old that I was told began doing it when he was weaned by shutting him on his own in a stable - I wonder how many horse actually do start this way if instead of being turned out with other youngsters or even a companion to occupy their minds they get bored and stressed and the sucking of air when latching onto a solid object simulates suckling
Anyway....
I used collars on all of the ones I had and they help a lot but can cause soreness so they do need breaks from them. None of mine ever had any problems keeping weight on or eating but if you leave them for prolonged periods without food or they get too obsessive about the sucking they can easily get 'gas colic' from a build up of trapped wind in the stomach.
One of the biggest pains other than health issues is that they damage doors and mangers etc - I would never have a manger in with a windsucker - and they pull fences over when they use them to suck on so we ran a strand of electric tape all around the top rail of the fence along the posts. We removed and boxed in, as best we could, anything that they could grab on in the stable to windsuck on and they were collared as much as possible. They seem less keen on latching onto metal so using a metal grating around the door - like an anti weaving grill helps.
Cribox does work but it can also cause burns and soreness in the mouth that might affect eating.
Plenty of distractions - as much varied work programmes that you can come up with is good
A lot of people claim that other horses will copy them but In the case of my 3 this never happened and one of them bred 3 foals none of who windsucked.
If the horse is otherwise doing a great job for you its worth the effort of managing them


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

My cribber is turned out 24/7 and to my knowledge has been in any kind of tramatic event..Nikki mainly does it when I'm around or when she's eating. If I'm not there and it's someone else she won't crib (or so I'm told) and she will only do it if I'm not paying attention to her. She knows I'll yell at her if I'm away from her and she just perks her ears and looks at me. If she's geting she'll take a few bites and then bite "her" post, windsuck, lick the post, and start eating again. The windsucking doesn't fill her stomach, she eats all of her food twice a day and I've never had any health problems fromthe cribbing.

Her teeth will eventually have to be taken care or but we've already made plans for it. My vet basically said that like people have false teeth, so will Nikki. It's a cap that will be put over her top teeth and will be permanent. 

I wouldn't ever cut a hole in my horse's cheek to stop cribbing. I had an experiencd with my gelding putting a quarter size hole in his cheek, it was awful. He was dropping feed, losing weight, very touchy with his face. In the end I had to get my vet to come out, cut the skin around the hole off and sew it closed. It healed fine but it was not a fun process.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

My cribber is turned out 24/7 and to my knowledge has been in any kind of tramatic event..Nikki mainly does it when I'm around or when she's eating. If I'm not there and it's someone else she won't crib (or so I'm told) and she will only do it if I'm not paying attention to her. She knows I'll yell at her if I'm away from her and she just perks her ears and looks at me. If she's eating she'll take a few bites and then bite "her" post, windsuck, lick the post, and start eating again. The windsucking doesn't fill her stomach, she eats all of her food twice a day and I've never had any health problems fromthe cribbing.

Her teeth will eventually have to be taken care or but we've already made plans for it. My vet basically said that like people have false teeth, so will Nikki. It's a cap that will be put over her top teeth and will be permanent. 

I wouldn't ever cut a hole in my horse's cheek to stop cribbing. I had an experiencd with my gelding putting a quarter size hole in his cheek, it was awful. He was dropping feed, losing weight, very touchy with his face. In the end I had to get my vet to come out, cut the skin around the hole off and sew it closed. It healed fine but it was not a fun process.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Can't ever say you wouldn't ever do something until you're presented with the situation of that or dead horse 

I haven't been there with windsucking because I won't own a windsucker/cribber (due to fence damage reasons), but I HAVE been there with other issues... I always used to say I would spare no expense in the event of health issues with my horses, and then a horse I had threw a spanner in the works with a COMPLETE temperament change over the space of literally a few weeks, with no change in anything to precipitate it. He went from an absolute wimp, bottom of the pecking order, to a bully, in the space of WEEKS. And he fell under saddle with no explanation. I retired him, no questions asked, and then ultimately put him down. In all that time he'd seen the vet once, for his scraped up knees when he fell... I later spoke with a very experienced horseman who told us that from the symptoms we described, he thought the horse might have had a brain tumour, and if that was the case, there is not a single diagnostic machine in Australia that would give anybody a clear idea of what was going on... and not a single vet who would be able to do anything about it anyway.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

That would depend on the severity of the situation. If I absolutely had no other choice I MAY resort to that, but after seeing the hole in the cheek with my gelding and how much of a problem it was for not only myself but him as well, I'm not so sure of what I would do. It would be a last resort and I would only do it IF my vet thought it was absolutely necessary and my horse was going to die because of it.. and even then I would consider doing the humane thing and have her PTS instead of putting her through the mess of having a hole in her cheek, losing weight, literally dropping feed through the hole, the mess it is for it to heal because of constant eating and the hole staying dirty..My gelding was miserable and I hated to see him like that.. There are a lot of factors that go into the hole in the cheek that I'm just not comfortable with. So, no thank you. You might do that instead of having a dead horse but I would do what was best for my horse, even if that means having her PTS as much as I would hate it, doing the right thing by her is what is my biggest concern.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

But some horses deal with it better than others, so one horse's bad experience isn't necessarily going to be an issue with another.

I wouldn't do it, because I wouldn't ever have the issue to deal with... as I said I will not ever have a horse that windsucks, they do way too much damage to fences etc. They are cheaper to buy for a reason IMO... and after watching a friend go through YEARS (3? 4?) of trying to correct the muscling on her gelding (also a windsucker) and only JUST have his neck looking reasonable instead of ugly and horribly ewed, it's just too much hard work. She also had the issue of him sucking back away from contact, instead of working forward into the bridle, but I personally think that was because of his muscling more than anything to do with training. With the better muscling has come much better work.

And THEN there is the question of, do ulcers cause windsucking, or does windsucking cause ulcers? Or both? The potential health issues, and the very real ones of improper and excessive teeth wear, all add up to it not being worth it.

I have never had any trouble finding horses to buy (within my meagre budget) that DON'T windsuck, and in fact those that I have found that don't, are better horses than those that I have seen advertised that DO.

I did say I don't know how they drink with the hole in their cheek... my gelding wouldn't be able to, he can't even drink with a bit in his mouth.

None of mine will ever develop windsucking under my care, either, because my horses live out 24/7 in a herd and always have access to roughage, whether it's grass (like it is atm, just ahead of the spring flush) or hay, or a mix of both. I don't box them, because there's no need, here, and it is stressful to the horse.

Do whatever you like with your horses, of course, and think what you like about me and the things I am not willing to rule out completely... but as with your experience, the procedure CAN be reversed, so even if a horse didn't cope great with it, it can be undone. I would consider it as a last-ditch effort to save a horse that windsucked so badly that nothing else would stop it, and it wouldn't eat because it was too busy sucking in air... but I would never have to do it because I won't touch windsuckers and my horses aren't going to begin doing it. Not while I own them.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

I'm not thinking anything of you, I'm sorry if that's what you're thinking. I was just stating that I wouldn't do that to my horse.. I have no problem with you and never meant it to seem that way. 

I knew my mare was a cribber when I bought her. I had ridden her, we got clicked great, she was a little over budget but I gladly spent a little more for her. I also had a vet check and everything saying that she wouldn't have any problems..with two different vets.. She hasn't, when she does come to a problem I'm aware of how I will need to take care of it, but right now she's a happy camper and completely healthy. I'm happy if she's happy.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

_"You might do that instead of having a dead horse but I would do what was best for my horse"_
^ that is what upset me... maybe you didn't word it very well but the insinuation is that I wouldn't do what's best for the horse, and instead selfishly put them through something which you believe (fairly, because your experience wasn't good) is not fair to the horse.

If by some freak occurrence my gelding started windsucking so badly it was going to kill him, if all else failed, I wouldn't have the operation done... he wouldn't be able to drink, he fails so dismally at it with a bit in his mouth because that breaks the "seal" in his mouth and he can't suck water up because it just runs out along the bit. If he had a hole in his cheek it would be even more impossible for him to take in water.

I don't have a clue what I would do with my TB if SHE started, because she's not even properly mouthed yet so hasn't had to deal with the issue of an imperfect mouth seal.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

I admit, I could have worded that better.. I was a little irritated by your statement saying that I wouldn't do something unless I was presented with that situation.. When I'm pretty sure of what I would or wouldn't do.. 

Anyway, over that bump..

I completely agree with you about the drinking and such.. It was a problem but it got to the point of Hickory sticking his head in up to his nostrils and it freaked me out a little.. It was just all in all a rough time for both of us.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

My point there, though, was that most people can never be truly sure until they have to make the decision. My situation (which I explained earlier) nearly 2 years ago was one where, had you told me it would happen, I would have emphatically informed you that I would spare no expense finding out what was wrong, and then spare no expense fixing the problem. As it was, I spared a LOT of expenses, because when we mentioned the issue to the vet in passing he said he didn't think there was any way of telling for sure... had you told me the vet would say that, I would have told you that I would absolutely have sought a second opinion, no matter what. And another, and another, and another, until I found the solution to the problem. Or found out that it wasn't fixable, at which point, and ONLY then, would I have put the horse down.

Presented with the situation, I did the opposite of what I thought I would do. Part of that was because I didn't have much money and realistically it wasn't possible for me to spare no expense in fixing the problem for my horse. The other part of it was that I didn't know which vet to go to who would be able to tell me what was wrong and how to fix it.

Of course, that's not as drastic as would I or would I not put a hole in my horse's cheek, and I don't think I would either even if my horse would cope. Holes in bodies freak me out to the point where I don't even like earrings on people!


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

I respect that.. That's your choice and opinion. I'll just finish by saying that.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Fair enough.

I just can't let something go when it's been used as an excuse for a wording which has offended me... and that IS all it is, an excuse. Unimpressed you may be, still doesn't give you the right to insinuate (even if through bad wording) that I am less of a horse owner than you are.

And yep, I am aware that the above paragraph probably sounds like an excuse as well.


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## twiz454 (Sep 3, 2012)

Okay so, sorry to resurrect an older thread, but the new TB at the barn is a windsucker. He doesn't crib, he doesn't need to hook his teeth over anything, he just plays with his tongue, does a small chewing action, and sucks in bits of air. He does it when he eats (has not been off his feed since arrival 2 weeks ago) or when he's bored/no one is paying attention. He has not done when when being ridden, but he will do it if he's just standing with tack on. He's 5, just came off the racetrack a couple months ago, so I'm sure between stress and boredom he developed this habit. He was a little colicky this past weekend, and I'm pretty sure it's from the wind sucking. He is turned out 24/7 with another horse. Does a cribbing collar work for this?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

twiz454 said:


> Okay so, sorry to resurrect an older thread, but the new TB at the barn is a windsucker. He doesn't crib, he doesn't need to hook his teeth over anything, he just plays with his tongue, does a small chewing action, and sucks in bits of air. He does it when he eats (has not been off his feed since arrival 2 weeks ago) or when he's bored/no one is paying attention. He has not done when when being ridden, but he will do it if he's just standing with tack on. He's 5, just came off the racetrack a couple months ago, so I'm sure between stress and boredom he developed this habit. He was a little colicky this past weekend, and I'm pretty sure it's from the wind sucking. He is turned out 24/7 with another horse. Does a cribbing collar work for this?


 This is interesting as being able to windsuck without having anything to latch on to is the true definition of windsucking but over the years in the UK at least windsucking seems to be used for anything that sucks in air
I've never seen a horse actually do what this one does. Its also interesting that you see him doing it when he's bored/not getting attention because that was an observation I made with horses that I've had that windsucked in the crib biting sense.
The colicy thing is caused by trapped gas - walking around to encourage it to pass through always worked for one we had that did that - someone once told me that peppermint would help but I've no experience of that
I would think a collar of some sort would help as it stops then doing that neck arching/clenching action that they need to do to swallow the air


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## twiz454 (Sep 3, 2012)

jaydee said:


> This is interesting as being able to windsuck without having anything to latch on to is the true definition of windsucking but over the years in the UK at least windsucking seems to be used for anything that sucks in air
> I've never seen a horse actually do what this one does. Its also interesting that you see him doing it when he's bored/not getting attention because that was an observation I made with horses that I've had that windsucked in the crib biting sense.
> The colicy thing is caused by trapped gas - walking around to encourage it to pass through always worked for one we had that did that - someone once told me that peppermint would help but I've no experience of that
> I would think a collar of some sort would help as it stops then doing that neck arching/clenching action that they need to do to swallow the air


I've only seen one other horse do it, a younger TWH who would flop his lips together, suck in air, the blow it back out is mouth making his lips make that same noise someone does when they are going to raspberry someone else (do that annoying stick their lips to your skin and blow out real hard thing). He did it all the time though. With the new TB, I sat out with him for about 45 minutes, just reading a magazine, and he stood in my face the entire time, being nosy, but not doing the wind sucking thing at all. I'm going to have the vet scope him to see if any stomach issue accompanies it. He doesn't arch his neck so much as stretch it straight out.. I'll have to see if I can get a video of him doing it tonight.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I have known several horses that were true 'windsuckers'. They all tucked their chins very tightly to do it.

A wide strap around their necks with a diamond shaped piece of hard plastic fastened at the bottom worked pretty well on all of them. The points of the plastic (about a 4 inch square piece) keeps them from folding up their necks tightly enough to force air down. I have seen people cut a piece of hard plastic out of the bottom of a 5 gal plastic bucket.

If this horse does not need to fold its neck up, I would not know what to say other than to try a Weaver collar. I have seen them make some horses get sores.


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## twiz454 (Sep 3, 2012)

I kind of want to stick a kazoo in his mouth.. lol. I'll grab a video tonight if I can catch him doing it.


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## twiz454 (Sep 3, 2012)

Video time! He does it while eating, when he's bored, when being brushed, and standing with tack on - no rider. He won't do it if all my attention is focused on him or when I'm riding. He does draw in some air, but it's not big gulps. He did have very bad teeth reported in June, but according to his paperwork everything was fixed (a ton of sharp points) and the vet here says he can't find anything wrong. You will have to copy/paste the URL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/62501101@N04/7984121691/


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

twiz454 said:


> Video time! He does it while eating, when he's bored, when being brushed, and standing with tack on - no rider. He won't do it if all my attention is focused on him or when I'm riding. He does draw in some air, but it's not big gulps. He did have very bad teeth reported in June, but according to his paperwork everything was fixed (a ton of sharp points) and the vet here says he can't find anything wrong. You will have to copy/paste the URL
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/62501101@N04/7984121691/


 What a little divil
He looks really cheeky so can see why he's an attention seeker
I'd really like some stats from people who have actually owned a horse when it first started cribbing/windsucking. Lots of people buy them already doing it but I never hear of anyone saying their horse has just started doing it
I once bought (nominal sale) a 6 month old weanling from a friend who noticed him doing it within days of her separating him from his mother. She shut him in a stable on his own - really bad idea IMO - I got him a couple of weeks later and he was turned out with other foals but never stopped the habit


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Didn't see the video...had a rather hard time convincing my phone...but made it

It looks like he's eating without having anything in his mouth;-)
Was he checked for ulcers?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## twiz454 (Sep 3, 2012)

He hasn't been checked yet, but I'm sure he does due to stress and the super rich diet he was on. His owner is going to have him scoped when she is back in town. I'm going to work him tomorrow and see if he does it any more/any less when I'm done.


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