# Wow! Just finished a Phil Haugen clinic.



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

If you haven't heard of Phil Haugen and/or are looking for a good *horsemanship* clinic, look him up. He travels all over the country.

I just spent my time at a 2-day clinic and learned a lot. He approaches things very, very differently and it makes a lot of sense when you truly think about it. But it's hard, because "the old way" was taught for so long that it's hard to wrap your mind around something else that actually makes more sense from the horse's way of thinking. For example, let's say your horse is scared of the banner in the arena. What most of us would do (myself included), is go work them back and forth by the banner until they didn't seem to worry about it anymore. With his teachings, you go work your horse AWAY from the banner, then come stand by it to let the horse relax. You've now associated that "scary object" with a release of getting to stand and relax. And if you do that 3, 4, 5 times, pretty soon, the horse is going to WANT to go stand by the banner. Because it's a happy place. Certainly a different way of thinking.

My personal "ah-ha!" tibdits were being really, really conscious of which seat bone I had more weight on based on what manauevar I was asking of my horse. That's not something I had been thinking about and might have been on the wrong one sometimes for things. 

But a really, really great clinic for being aware of what your body signals are cueing your horse's body to do. Basic horsemanship can be applied to ANY discipline or ANY event. Because it's the basics!


----------



## Morgan.taylor (Sep 1, 2020)

I love his way of teaching, it is similar to how I have learned. However his clinics are one of my bucket list stops! I love his philosophy!


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

beau159 said:


> What most of us would do (myself included), is go work them back and forth by the banner until they didn't seem to worry about it anymore.


What I'd suggest is urging the horse to work as close as he was comfortable working. Let the horse tell you how close was close enough. Over time, you'll get closer. In a recent case on the trail, someone had dumped garbage on both sides of the trail. Bandit had no intention of walking between the piles of space alien trash. But I know him fairly well, so I backed him away and then asked him to run between them. THAT he could do. The next day, he trotted between them. The fourth day, he walked between them. Then I took my truck out and picked up the garbage some pig of a human dumped in the desert...

In the story below, notice Tom Roberts used slack reins. Slack reins gives the horse more freedom to decide - and that is important:







But if I was going to use the "work hard or relax" method, then Phil Haugen's approach seems a good one. And I'm a retired guy with a trail horse I own, not a trainer, so I can take as much time as my horse wants - _which is not true for everyone_.


----------



## ksbowman (Oct 30, 2018)

He appears frequently on Better Horses on RFD tv. I really like hearing his training techniques and incorporate much of what he says into my bag of tricks. Good person and good trainer.


----------



## SmokeyC (Nov 4, 2021)

I love going to different clinics, even just as a spectator, and having those "Oh wow.." moments. I'm of the mind set that even if what you are doing is working why not always learn more? I'll have to check him out!


----------



## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

@beau159 , can you tell about some more things that you learned? Can you tell a little more about body signals, seatbones, and anything else that you remember?


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> What I'd suggest is urging the horse to work as close as he was comfortable working. Let the horse tell you how close was close enough. Over time, you'll get closer. In a recent case on the trail, someone had dumped garbage on both sides of the trail. Bandit had no intention of walking between the piles of space alien trash. But I know him fairly well, so I backed him away and then asked him to run between them. THAT he could do. The next day, he trotted between them. The fourth day, he walked between them. Then I took my truck out and picked up the garbage some pig of a human dumped in the desert...
> 
> In the story below, notice Tom Roberts used slack reins. Slack reins gives the horse more freedom to decide - and that is important:
> ​But if I was going to use the "work hard or relax" method, then Phil Haugen's approach seems a good one. And I'm a retired guy with a trail horse I own, not a trainer, so I can take as much time as my horse wants - _which is not true for everyone_.


Many things come into play of course. First thing is knowing your horse. Each one is an individual. Second, yes, sometimes timelines come into play. You work with what you have to work with. Sometimes you might have to cut a corner, fully knowing you will have to fix it later on. 

Another thing I really liked about Phil is he's a human being.  As in, he understands we all have lives, we all have deadlines, and sometimes you have to do certain things. But then you find the time later to do it right, just one percent at a time. We aren't going to make a 100% difference in a day. But we can make 1% difference each day. And then you build on that.

But still, working AT the object is NOT the point. You do NOT want to create more stress or anxiety at the scary object. You work _away_ from it, and then bring the horse as close at they are comfortable to rest and relax. That makes the object "good". Again, it's just a very different concept that most of us are used to.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

knightrider said:


> @beau159 , can you tell about some more things that you learned? Can you tell a little more about body signals, seatbones, and anything else that you remember?


Not sure I can type out 2 days worth of information  but a couple other key things I picked up.

Most of us are guilty of NOT releasing our cue early enough. For example, let's say you squeeze your legs to ask them to move forward. You should be releasing your legs the* instant *your horse starts to pick up a foot. What do most of us do? Release our legs when the horse's foot has picked up and actually stepped back down on the ground. Far, far, far too late. You build softness and responsiveness by being really tuned in to that, and always release your cue when your horse STARTS the movement. Not when they have completed it. 

But on the same token, you need to hold your cue until the horse gives you a correct response. Phil has many different exercises he does for horses, including the one-rein stop. And you do NOT let go of that rein pressure until two things happen 1) their feet stop moving and 2) they are soft to the bit. Sometimes you might literally stand there for 1 minute for some horses before they give you the correct answer. You don't pull harder. You just wait. And release the moment it happens. 

So those are two other big things I thought it was important to be aware of. Being really focused on the "release" and doing it at the correct time.

Most of his other exercises are just body control. Moving the shoulders, both in the arc of the circle and doing counterarcs. Moving the ribs. Moving the hindquarters. Keeping their face soft in the bridle. One rein stop if they rush or aren't focusing. Again, just very, very very basic simple things that are very powerful at the same time. Think about what you are asking your horse to do. And then do it in a way the horse understands. 

Asking about seat bones, if you are making a nice circle to the left, you should be slightly more on your RIGHT seat bone. (weight to the outside) Then if you want to do a counter arc, you switch to your LEFT seat bone. Or if you are preparing for a lead departure (let's say left lead), your weight is slightly more on the right seat bone. When you want to do a flying lead change, then one of the things you are changing with your body is moving to the left seat bone to then "fly" to the right lead. (Along with proper leg cues, hand position, etc).

I was really thinking a lot about these things as I was riding my horse around, and I am lucky to have her because she is super responsive and has so much "feel" herself. She was doing direction changes from nothing more than me shifting my weight on my seat bones. Pretty cool.


----------



## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

Thank you! Those are all things that I should work on too. Did he say anything about position of the head when teaching leads? I was taught a long time ago to put the nose turning just a bit to the outside when asking for a correct lead. It has worked for me over the years, but sometimes I read that that is wrong. What did he (and you) think?


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

knightrider said:


> Did he say anything about position of the head when teaching leads? I was taught a long time ago to put the nose turning just a bit to the outside when asking for a correct lead.


Turning the nose outward is WRONG. Here's why. Let's say you are asking your horse to pick up the left lead. You want the nose tipped slightly to the left, just so you can see their eye (do not want them overbent). The shoulders should be slightly out, and you support that with your inside leg. Of course, the ribcage also needs to be slightly out (to the right), which could be supported by your inside leg but your outside leg might come into play too. Because your outside right leg is going to keep their hip inward (left). And again, you are keeping the weight slightly more on your right seat bone. The goal here is that you need all your horse's body parts in the correct position. If they are in the correct position, you cannot miss the lead departure. 

The horse WILL step first with the right hind when you have your horse's body correct and have your body correct. If they step off with the right hind, then they are going to be in their left lead. 

So if you do it the way you were taught, by tipped their nose outward, now you are putting more weight on the inside shoulder and they are going to be UNBALANCED for their lead departure because the ribcage is not where it needs to be. Maybe you'll get lucky and pick it up. But then maybe you won't the next time. It just puts the horse's body into all the wrong posititions. 

You need to do what you can to help your front-end-loaded horse, move as much weight to the back as you can. Ideally, 50/50 but if you are really good, maybe you can get 60% of their weight to the back. If you free up the front end and get the weight to the back, now your horse can do anything.


----------



## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

Thank you. That was a huge help. I wish you lived closer so I could learn more. I am grateful to learn what I can from the forum.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Doesn't it all boil down to what cues the horse has learned? And then the correct cue is the one he knows? After all, I carry a Leatherman in my right hip pocket. I may look right...and decide he needs to head left NOW because of what I see to the right! That is fine for Bandit who probably can't even imagine paying any attention to my seat bones (or Leatherman), but would confuse the heck out of many highly trained horses. And I often do transitions while in two-point, so Bandit needs to figure things out on his own. Which is appropriate for Bandit (since that is how we ride) but would probably confuse horses trained to a different approach. So doesn't the right cue depend on the horse's training? Isn't that what a cue is - a request that the HORSE perform something?

The 50:50 thing seems problematic. Mia and Bandit both have convinced me a horse can turn painfully fast and switch gears from stop all the way to gallop in a heartbeat - without being remotely collected. It isn't necessarily comfortable to ride out, and it wouldn't look good in a show, but their athleticism is in no way diminished by their normal 57:43 balance.

Most of my riding includes time off-trail, picking our way across the Sonoran Desert. The nimbleness and agility Bandit displays while doing so absolutely stuns me - and it is BANDIT doing it. When he understands something, my largely untrained horse can perform it beautifully. He has near-flawless control of his own body. _The problem for me as a rider is simply one of how to communicate._ Very easy to do picking our way between the cacti, vastly more difficult in an arena! So doesn't it boil down to how we communicate, and doesn't that all depend on how others communicated with him before?

If Bandit understands "Canter now", he can perform it - as he did when he was an 800 lb horse hauling 300 lbs on his back. He seems able to compensate for almost anything IF he understands (and agrees, which is always an issue with Bandit). Maybe that is why I've read one should weigh the outside seat bone in some texts, and the inside seat bone is others, while Bandit doesn't care at all about mine.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

knightrider said:


> Thank you. That was a huge help. I wish you lived closer so I could learn more. I am grateful to learn what I can from the forum.


I surely didn't learn these things in a day. 😁 And I am surely not done learning!!

I've been investing in myself ( I call it ) the last few years with going to things like this, and you just continue to pick up on things as you go.
Find trainers near you to go take lessons. Find good horsemanship clinicians that is within a reasonable distance for you. Go!!!
I've also learned a ton from a local reining trainer near me. And an Ensligh instructor. So you can surely learn from professionals in your area too.



bsms said:


> Doesn't it all boil down to what cues the horse has learned?


It boils down to *communication* between a rider and a horse. If the horse knows what you are asking and is able to do it consistently, well then that's good communication.

But...... that communication is NOT transferrable. Meaning, if the same rider gets on a different horse, you might have to communication differently to that horse.



bsms said:


> And then the correct cue is the one he knows? After all, I carry a Leatherman in my right hip pocket. I may look right...and decide he needs to head left NOW because of what I see to the right! That is fine for Bandit who probably can't even imagine paying any attention to my seat bones (or Leatherman), but would confuse the heck out of many highly trained horses. And I often do transitions while in two-point, so Bandit needs to figure things out on his own. Which is appropriate for Bandit (since that is how we ride) but would probably confuse horses trained to a different approach. So doesn't the right cue depend on the horse's training? Isn't that what a cue is - a request that the HORSE perform something?


Which just reinforces that communication is not transferrable. Yes, Bandit might know what YOU want because you can communicate with each other. But someone else might hop on Bandit and confuse the heck out of him. Or you might hop on a different horse and confuse the heck out of that horse.



bsms said:


> The 50:50 thing seems problematic. Mia and Bandit both have convinced me a horse can turn painfully fast and switch gears from stop all the way to gallop in a heartbeat - without being remotely collected. It isn't necessarily comfortable to ride out, and it wouldn't look good in a show, but their athleticism is in no way diminished by their normal 57:43 balance.


But I guarantee they would be BETTER if they were more balanced.

Horses are freaks of nature. They can do incredible athletic things. Truthfully, we only tap into a small portion of what they are truly physically capable of. But the more you can get their body into correct position, free the front end, balance the horse, the BETTER they can do those things.

But I do also show and compete and do things with my horses where a hundreth of a second matters. So maximizing my horse's physical abilities is very important. For what you do? Obviously not as important.

For the question above by KnighRider on leads (which I am assuming is sparking your questions), that is the CORRECT way that is going to be the most successful when training a horse to do a lead departure. And it is going to tie in with other advanced maneuvars, so if a person wants a horse more highly trained, that's what you do. If you don't have the urge to do that with your horse because it is not necessary for trail riding, more power to ya and go about your business.

And obviously there are people at very, very high levels of competitions that don't do things correctly. I can think of quite a few professional barrel racers who have been to the NFR that I personally cannot stand to watch because of the way they ride. But I also think there has been a very big movement for people to seek out good horsemanship and the easiest way for horses to use their body to their advantage. And those that want to learn and want to do better, will. Those that don't, won't.




bsms said:


> Maybe that is why I've read one should weigh the outside seat bone in some texts, and the inside seat bone is others, while Bandit doesn't care at all about mine.


Because you've taught him he doesn't have to care about your seat bones.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I love most of what you posted, @beau159. My problem is with the idea what 50:50 is "proper" or even "the best" balance for a horse, when a horse balanced 50:50 is barely able to move over level ground. All creatures with legs move via _DISPLACED_ equilibrium After all, equilibrium means "_The condition in which all acting influences are balanced or canceled by equal opposing forces, *resulting in a stable system*_". A table is stable with equal weight on its legs, but it won't move. To move, we shift our balance forward or back, left or right, and then - to keep us from falling - intercept our motion with the other leg. I can jog in place with equal balance, but only move when my balance shifts into the direction of travel. I admit that discussions of how horses move have made me more aware of my body as I jog in the desert!

Horses are much like rear wheel drive cars. The rear provides the thrust for motion, while the front steers where the motion goes. And the front is admirably designed for sustaining weight in motion because their front legs don't attach to the skeleton. Instead, a sling of muscle provides the connection - and in turns provides shock absorption. Bandit is a low grade horse in breeding, but he moves with unbelievable athleticism on his own. I've watched him zipping around the corral, dodging thru the shelters, or on his own racing beneath some trees while at the same time crossing rip-rap rock on our hillside and been very glad I wasn't on his back for the ride! But he isn't obeying any rules of balance rooted in manage riding.

No horse wins a race while collected. A horse turning around a barrel is not collected and "straight", balanced 50:50 (or 25:25:25:25). In fact, the rear legs are actually bearing weight except during the brief time they are nearly vertical! In the desert or running down a rock-filled wash, Bandit's balance is constantly shifting. We'd die if it didn't, and wouldn't move at all if it was 50:50.

I'm not likely to convince anyone and that is OK. My thoughts were shaped by VS Littauers "Common Sense Horsemanship", specifically chapters 9 (What is a good performance of the horse) and 10 (Why collected gaits have no place in forward schooling). It is free online at if anyone is interested:


Full text of "Common Sense Horseman Ship"



I thank beau159 for the interesting (_to me at least_) discussion. I haven't heard of Phil Haugen but would like to hear more of him.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> No horse wins a race while collected.


No. A running horse is NOT in a collected state. When I talk about weight displacement such as 50/50, that doesn't apply to running.



bsms said:


> A horse turning around a barrel is not collected and "straight", balanced 50:50 (or 25:25:25:25).


Barrel racing is a complex sport, in that you need your horse to be able to extend while running on the straightaways, and then they have to collect in order to execute the turn. 

So when they turn the barrel, they better be collected and balanced. Or you aren't going to win.
If they are front end loaded, you are going to be dashboarded (rough front end) and the hind end will swing around, and you won't have any momentum to get going again to the next barrel ..... as this costs TIME. For a sport that is won or lost by thousandths of a second, TIME is crucial.



bsms said:


> My problem is with the idea what 50:50 is "proper" or even "the best" balance for a horse, when a horse balanced 50:50 is barely able to move over level ground.
> 
> Bandit is a low grade horse in breeding, but he moves with unbelievable athleticism on his own. I've watched him zipping around the corral, dodging thru the shelters, or on his own racing beneath some trees while at the same time crossing rip-rap rock on our hillside and been very glad I wasn't on his back for the ride! But he isn't obeying any rules of balance rooted in manage riding.


I'm not talking about what a horse does on their own in the pasture when I talk about weight distribution.
I'm talking about barrel racing, reining, dressage, etc etc. The events that require a very high level of training in order to compete at top levels.



bsms said:


> Horses are much like rear wheel drive cars. The rear provides the thrust for motion, while the front steers where the motion goes.


Which is exactly why the more weight you can move OFF the front end, the more successful they will be in a performance event.
Think of a reining horse in a spin. That front end needs to be free and light so they can move it around while the back end stays in place. If they are heavy on the front end, they simply cannot do it.



bsms said:


> I haven't heard of Phil Haugen but would like to hear more of him.


He does weekly podcasts and also does some free training videos. Here is his website.


----------

