# Rearing



## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

How have you ruled out pain? Has mare had Ultrasound, MRI, CAT scans done? Have X-rays been done of all her skeletal structure? Has she had a thorough dental exam done and dental work done?

What type of bit are you using, does your saddle fit, and did saddle come with her or not, same with bridle.

She could have had an ill fitting saddle on her, that has caused problems, could have a broken withers process, could have bone spurs, fecalith, internal problems such as cysts, or tumors, or just something internally is not right, and she was born with it, for instance could have testicles as well as female organs.

She could have abscess deep in muscles, could have broken tooth that is causing pain, could have something wrong with poll, could have broken bars.

Could have a tumor under her spine or an organ that is not in the correct place that is causing this.

Unless you have had a thorough workup by an equine vet, you can't rule out that there is pain somewhere.

How old is she and how much of her history do you actually know?

And could be she has learned this is the way to get out of work too. Depends on how much she was let to get away with things.

But this worst habit horse can get into, and very good way to get hurt.

And when you say you have her groundwork good and solid, what exactly does that mean to you? Is she respectful of you? Why was she rearing on the ground? What was going on when she would go up? When she rears under saddle for old owners, who was riding her? How much training has she actually had under saddle? 

Need more background on this, and a video of you just working with her too would be good. It could be she is also showing signs of disrespect to you and you aren't reading it right.

Also, what breed and how old is she?


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Palomine said:


> How have you ruled out pain? Has mare had Ultrasound, MRI, CAT scans done? Have X-rays been done of all her skeletal structure? Has she had a thorough dental exam done and dental work done?
> 
> What type of bit are you using, does your saddle fit, and did saddle come with her or not, same with bridle.
> 
> ...


Her teeth have been checked. She has seen a vet. Did not do any MRIs or anything like that though. She is 6 years old. I know all her history since a yearling on. As a yearling she was abandoned in a pasture. A rescue took her in, then the people I got her from adopted her soon after. She was started when she was 3 1/2-4 and got maybe 30 rides and then went back to sitting in the pasture and doing nothing as the person became very busy. Last summer she was then rode once or twice. So there had been a lot of inconsistancy in her life. I am using a mullen mouth eggbutt bit on her which she works nicely in. Her saddle fits. Neither her saddle not bridle came with her. I am almost positive she does this because she has learned it gets her way. When she reared in the prev home they just ignored it. There was not punishment or anything at all for it. When I say her ground work is good and solid, I mean she lunges, leads, loads, drives, ties, etc. She minds and respects me, as any horse she does test it sometimes but gets thrown back into place and then we are good. She reared on ground when she wanted to stop. Like, when walking her and she wanted to stop and whiney and look around when I redirected her to me and asked her to move forwards and she resisted and I kept asking she would rear up. After getting a stud chain on her, she reared once or twice on the ground, has not since. After authority was established on ground and there was punishment for rearing, it stopped. When the prev owners had her they had her walking and trotting under saddle along with backing and stopping. If and when she reared, they held on and ignored it. Her rearing happens when she refuses to move forwards and is asked to move forwards and then told to. She also flips her tongue over the bit when she starts getting ready to rear. She has learned that if she does that she can evade the bit. We put a headstall on her that makes it a bit harder for her to do it, but she still can and does if she really tries hard. She only does it when more is asked of her. If she is getting nervous, irritated, etc she will do that then rear. She is a old style Morgan


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Larissa said:


> Well.. My mare rears. She also is just being started. She reared in her prev home as well..
> 
> I don't have the experience to ride her when she does this.


Okay this is beyond scary. You are admittedly not able to ride a rearing horse, yet you bought one who is known to rear? Rearing is the #1 most dangerous behavior. Either find an experienced trainer who can work with her, or sell this horse before you get hurt. There are plenty of good horses out there to risk you life with one that rears.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

MyBoyPuck said:


> Okay this is beyond scary. You are admittedly not able to ride a rearing horse, yet you bought one who is known to rear? Rearing is the #1 most dangerous behavior. Either find an experienced trainer who can work with her, or sell this horse before you get hurt. There are plenty of good horses out there to risk you life with one that rears.


I was under the impression it would go away with time and work. That once we redid ground work and stuff it would stop. I am working with a trainer but they will not get on her.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Larissa said:


> I was under the impression it would go away with time and work. That once we redid ground work and stuff it would stop. I am working with a trainer but they will not get on her.


The fact that your trainer will not get on her should be a big red light for you. Rearing does not go away without serious retraining. If she's been doing this for a long time, it's going to be a very hard habit to break. Only the most experienced riders should be on this horse. As much as some like to think, ground work does not always translate to under saddle work.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

You should be all shook up, rearing can kill you in a nano second. You need a trainer experienced in controlling rearers. Something got this mare rearing and whenever she wants to evade, she rears, deadly habit.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Yeah.. I know getting rid of her is probably best. It is just really playing on my heart. It has got me all torn up. I had so much hope she would change. And I hate getting animals to have to get rid of them. But I understand rearing is very dangerous.. I guess now I just have to do what is best.. :'(


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Larissa said:


> I was under the impression it would go away with time and work. That once we redid ground work and stuff it would stop. I am working with a trainer but they will not get on her.


I would put money on the fact that the REAL reason they won't is because they are scared and know it's a bad idea.

That is very naïve.. until you are experienced and advanced and working with a trainer that is willing to work with you do not even consider getting a "problem horse" esp not a dangerous one.

I think you have learned your lesson here.

I am glad you are selling her.. hopefully she ends up in a good place.

Get yourself a nice quiet horse you can learn on.

I'm sorry your upset about selling her. Like I said, I think you were naïve and have learned your lesson now. Do not get your hopes up. Be practical. If you take on a problem realize it takes a LOT of hard work skill and experience to fix and even then many things aren't even _really_ "fixed". If you decide in the future, when you are ready, to take on a problem horse, please realize that there's no guaranteed solution.

It is for the best that you sell her. I'm sure it's very hard. Just do what you can to get her ready for sale. You may want to advertise her as "companion only" if need be. Have her nice and healthy and in shape (as much as possible) groomed, well behaved etc.

FYI ground work entails much more that leading and loading. There are all the necessary prerequisites to riding which are much more relevant here.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> I would put money on the fact that the REAL reason they won't is because they are scared and know it's a bad idea.
> 
> That is very naïve.. until you are experienced and advanced and working with a trainer that is willing to work with you do not even consider getting a "problem horse" esp not a dangerous one.
> 
> ...


When I got her, from what I was expecting, was with a good trainer she could be fixed.. They meant her. Saw how she can be. And from then on have not liked her at all. So that effected a lot training wise.. The rearing I was aware of, but didn't start to show until more and more was asked of her. I realize buying her was a mistake. I can't fix her, even with a trainer. As somebody told me, "She doesn't want to learn. She has had free rein to many years and gotten sour. There are to many good ones that have a nice dispostion that want to learn to kill yourself trying to make her a quiet horse and you will more then likely make her miserable trying." I am just going to do my best to get her a safe home. I have a no slaughter contract for her sale. All I can do past that I guess is try to make sure she goes into good hands. I failed.. I failed her and me. That's a thing that's really bothering me. I should have known better though.. I have been around horses all my life. And I know things don't change easily.. Lesson learned..


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I should ask, are these full blown rears, balancing on the back legs, or it is something I call a "temper pop"? That means the horse bounces up on it's front end? If it's the latter, any decent trainer can fix that before it does become a full blown rear.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

What a discouraging situation . I feel for you, and her.

it's possible that you may be able to find a trainer that can deal with her, as a confirmed rearer. Some folks who call themselves "trainers" are really more about giving riding lessons to a human, than about training a hrose out of bad behavior, and into correct behavior. and even amoung horse trainers, some specialize in dealing with the worst behaviors.

she goes UP becuase she does not think going forward is a good deal. Somehow, she must be convinced that going forward is the best response. how? I do not know. such a horse would scare me , too. I would not ride her. but there are folks who will, and who can. seek them out.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

waresbear said:


> I should ask, are these full blown rears, balancing on the back legs, or it is something I call a "temper pop"? That means the horse bounces up on it's front end? If it's the latter, any decent trainer can fix that before it does become a full blown rear.


It is a full blown rear. Balancing on the hind legs without any issues. She doesn't pop up really. If she is going to come up at all, it is full out.


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## Canterklutz (Jul 20, 2012)

As hard as it is, selling her is your best option. However it is going to be incredibly difficult to sell a horse that rears as people do not want to risk their safety when they can more easily find a horse without this problem. Protect yourself and be very honest with potential buyers about her issue.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Canterklutz said:


> As hard as it is, selling her is your best option. However it is going to be incredibly difficult to sell a horse that rears as people do not want to risk their safety when they can more easily find a horse without this problem. Protect yourself and be very honest with potential buyers about her issue.


On ground she is now safe. Its under saddle. I put specifically in her add NOT FOR NOVICE and NOT BROKE. If they ask to disclose any vices I will surely bring it up.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Honestly, I am looking into horse trainers for problem horses. The way I look at it is, spend the money to get her fixed and try to solve the problems. OR spend twice or triple that and get a new horse. I want to hear your guys opinions. Can rearing be stopped? It stopped on ground. Can it stop under saddle?


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Well, some say it can be cured and some say the vice is always lurking. As a youth, I saw a girl killed by a rearer, it stayed with me and that was over 40 years ago. That horse had been to many trainers in our area, none of them cured that mare. Personally, if it were my horse, I would say good bye to her in a humane fashion as I would not want the burden of what could happen to someone on my mind.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

Have you and trainer done ground driving?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

waresbear said:


> Well, some say it can be cured and some say the vice is always lurking. As a youth, I saw a girl killed by a rearer, it stayed with me and that was over 40 years ago. That horse had been to many trainers in our area, none of them cured that mare. Personally, if it were my horse, I would say good bye to her in a humane fashion as I would not want the burden of what could happen to someone on my mind.


I understand. The thing that has got me really thinking is that she stopped rearing on the ground after work and is now quiet. The tongue over the bit thing also only happens when she is put into a situation that she can't handle, i.e. one day my trainer had me take her out into the outdoor areana where she had never been with 7 horses being worked around her, after I had only had the mare there 4 days. She did the tongue over the bit thing. The next two times we worked her in the indoor where there was less to focus or stress on but with one or two working horses around her. The tongue thing did not happen. Next time we took her back to the outdoor areana, and there was three or four horses being worked. We had no problems. The tongue thing did not happen. After that, which would be last Friday, my trainer had me ride her. I felt it was way to soon. But she had me do it anyways. She was okay the first 8 mins and I felt we should have stopped at that on a good note as she wasn't doing the tongue thing yet. But she insisted we continued working her and then 2 mins later the tongue thing started to happen and then things started to get worse. So this is what has me thinking.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Foxtail Ranch said:


> Have you and trainer done ground driving?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We have. But not as much as I would have liked to done. It was rushed.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

As Foxtail mentioned, trainers that deal with habitual rearers, will use plenty of grounddriving, does it cure a rearer? Sometimes, yes, and unfortunately, sometimes no. It is not a chance I would be willing to take.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Rearing can be fixed. I have fixed several -- some that flipped over every time and others that just reared up as high as a horse can go before they fall over.

I absolutely will not get on one. A man I knew (I was very good friends with his brother) was killed when a horse fell over on him and the saddle horn put a rib through his heart. I know 2 people that had their pelvis' crushed by horses falling over on them. So, NO! I will not get on one.

I have retrained all of the ones I have gotten by ground driving them, usually with two people. I put a LOT of pressure on one and beat the crap out of one when it stalls out and even thinks about rearing. [Retraining badly spoiled horse is sometimes not pretty.]

After teaching one the error of rearing, I hook up a big, heavy grader tire to the saddle-horn of a big roping saddle with a heavy breast-collar. I will drive a horse where ever I want to go -- through water, over hills and through gullies, all dragging that big 300# grader tire. 

When they 'give it up' and just drop their heads and go and pull steady, I will ride the horse briefly. I will drive a horse like this several different times. Each time riding it longer after driving it less and less. 

I have only had a few that still wanted to rear and I got a lot more drastic with them. But they were already flippers and not rideable at all, long before I got them.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

^^^^^This! But how many people are capable of this type of correction? A good trainer would need someone like Cherie to show them how before I would be messing around like that.


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## jackboy (Jul 8, 2012)

I say get a real trainer if you can tell things are rushed and not to your liking fire the one you got it's your money. Everybody can train a easy going good tempered happy go lucky horse but horses like these is what separates the pretenders from the contenders. I know people are saying give up and that's up to you I would try every avenue before passing it on down the line


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

jackboy said:


> I say get a real trainer if you can tell things are rushed and not to your liking fire the one you got it's your money. Everybody can train a easy going good tempered happy go lucky horse but horses like these is what separates the pretenders from the contenders. I know people are saying give up and that's up to you I would try every avenue before passing it on down the line


Thank you, for not telling me to give up. I am trying to find a good trainer for her. If Cherie was closer I would happily pay her to do it. If only I still lived in Oklahoma.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

My attitude toward these difficult horses has evolved through the years. I used to think I should 'save' every spoiled horse and natural born idiot. Any more? Not so much. 

Since I have trained horses full-time for more than 50 years, people ask me all of the time what has changed the most in my methods and in training in general. Actually, my methods have changed very little. I kept getting better and better at 'finishing' horses, but my methods are very close to what I started doing more than 50 years ago.

I think the biggest single thing that has changed the most is that there are a LOT BETTER HORSES BEING BRED NOW! The good horses of today that are the result of selective breeding for the last 50-60 years are totally different than the horses of the past. They not only are more athletic, better movers and have a lot more ability, they are a LOT more trainable. THEY ARE BETTER MINDED. There are so many really good prospects out there today, I consider it a huge waste of my time and talent to try to make a good horse out of a puke. 'GOOD HORSES' are user friendly and easy to get along with without sacrificing ability. They are much more 'forgiving' and so much easier to get along with, they are as different as night and day from the horses of the past. 

This is the main reason that I quit training outside horses about 20-25 years ago. When I started only riding and training horses that I bred and raised or very selective chose (bought), I have not had to deal with the spoiled junk horses I trained for the first 25 or 30 years of my training career. My degenerative joint disease (mostly my spine) have now stopped me from riding much at all, but I still help people work with their own horses by coaching them through the process. But, when they watch me coach someone through the training process on our 'home-bred' horses, they usually get the message that these things are not all created equal. Some are a lot more equal than others.

So, now I tell a lot more people that it is their horse and they can spend as much money and as much time as they want trying to 'make' it into a good horse, but I would no longer be bothered. You can train 5 or 6 'good' trainable prospects with the time and/or money it takes to attempt to train or retrain 1 junk horse. 

I know a lot of people on this site hate to hear me say this. They think they should be able to 'rescue' every spoiled horse. Truth of the matter is that they risk life and limb and their entire future trying to 'save' a horse that will probably never make a really pleasant mount that they can relax on and enjoy. Yes, some really nice horses get spoiled, but there are so many really nice unspoiled ones out there, that I now chose to concentrate on breeding and raising and selling them or coaching someone through training them.

This is just one person's opinion, but it is now mine.

Cherie


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

I understand what you are saying. I am looking into sending her to a college that is 40 mins from me for 6 weeks at $600. They have dealt with rearing horses. And the one girl personally knows my horse, she was the one who started her (before she was experienced and in college for it). So if I take her there they will get a good foundation on her. And if things for some reason don't work (Which the odds are good they will). I will either sell her or come to terms she is not a riding horse and drive her or pasture her.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Larissa said:


> Thank you, for not telling me to give up. I am trying to find a good trainer for her. If Cherie was closer I would happily pay her to do it. If only I still lived in Oklahoma.


To clarify- I don't think the OP should "give up" I think the OP should make a decision with her and the horse's best interest in mind and realize she is dealing with a very dangerous situation that requires a LOT of skill and experience to correct.

I think selling the horse would be the best thing to do. Selling does not mean "giving up" it means finding a suitable home for the horse and finding a suitable horse for the OP.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

If I indeed cannot handle her even after the training, I will look into different options i.e. selling, pasture pet, etc.. But the issue with selling is not many people want a 6 year old, bay mare, that is not broke, that rears or has been known to, that has no papers. Not to mention if she hurt somebody things could get ugly. And I wont run her through a sale. So I mean I would have to do a lot of thinking and such. But I am trying to handle this in a very mature manner. Which I realize I was naive to start with. So I am getting her to a diff trainer, with experience with this behavior, and seeing what happens with that.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

You are being mature about it. I like your plan.

That was also my hesitation when I said sell and why I suggested doing as much possible (off of her) to help promote her to buyers.

Yes, get a good experienced trainer and take it from there. They may fix it, they may fix it but say she's too much for you, or they may not be able to. It's worth a try.

You did make a mistake but you also realize that now and are being practical about how to fix it. Live and learn


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I would caution against driving a horse that rears. An old family friend died when a horse she was training to harness reared and flipped. It landed on her and the cart. She had years and years of experience breaking and training horses. 

I admire the way you are striving to handle this situation OP. If the training does not work, and the college does not work than it might be time to consider euthanasia. There are a lot of nice horses out there and you will have given this mare every chance. It is not worth the risk of her hurting someone or being bred and pasture pets are expensive.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Rearing is something I won't mess with if it's an old habit. If it's a new thing and the horse has just decided to try it, I will fix it and it's not particularly difficult. Make the horse uncomfortable enough, they will stop. HOWEVER, this mare is a chronic rearer and most likely will not completely stop. I would find her a home as a recip mare, foal babysitter or a companion with full disclosure that she is not a suitable riding horse. There are too many nice horses out there to risk your life on one that rears. Sorry to be blunt, but it's true.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

palogal said:


> Rearing is something I won't mess with if it's an old habit. If it's a new thing and the horse has just decided to try it, I will fix it and it's not particularly difficult. Make the horse uncomfortable enough, they will stop. HOWEVER, this mare is a chronic rearer and most likely will not completely stop. I would find her a home as a recip mare, foal babysitter or a companion with full disclosure that she is not a suitable riding horse. There are too many nice horses out there to risk your life on one that rears. Sorry to be blunt, but it's true.[/QUOTE
> 
> She has completely stopped on ground, after a few nice swift reprimandings so I don't see why she won't under saddle. She isn't dumb. When she found out there was going to be a situation that was very uncomfortable for rearing on the ground, she stopped. I feel the same can happen under saddle. She has not reared under saddle since I have owned her, but I was told she did previously. Something a little bigger then a temper pop but not a full rear under saddle. I honestly feel it is my responsibility to do what I can in my power to fix this problem. I bought her knowing.. So I need to try to get her fixed. However, if it is not fixed. I will explore other options. Possibly just keeping her here and showing her in showmanship etc..


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## jackboy (Jul 8, 2012)

If it were me I wouldn't send her back to the person where all this rearing started but wherever you send her is going to have to be someone with great riding skills who is not afraid of this if I was training this mare the very first time she reared under saddle she would think the world had just came to an end fixing this problem is not going to be easy or pretty if I was close I would help you I can since you really want give her a chance and I respect that good luck and keep me posted


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Larissa said:


> palogal said:
> 
> 
> > Rearing is something I won't mess with if it's an old habit. If it's a new thing and the horse has just decided to try it, I will fix it and it's not particularly difficult. Make the horse uncomfortable enough, they will stop. HOWEVER, this mare is a chronic rearer and most likely will not completely stop. I would find her a home as a recip mare, foal babysitter or a companion with full disclosure that she is not a suitable riding horse. There are too many nice horses out there to risk your life on one that rears. Sorry to be blunt, but it's true.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

palogal said:


> Larissa said:
> 
> 
> > It's a WHOLE LOT more dangerous to deal with a rear in the saddle that it is on the ground. I sincerely hope you're wearing a helmet and a protective vest when you are on this horse if you're insistent on keeping her.
> ...


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

what struck a cord with me was that when the horse is pushed is when the rear happens so they pushed her while you were on her and she reared. 
First when she stops bend her to the side. She wont be able to rear if off balance. So she needs to be able to bend when you are on the ground so she will respond. When a horse is stuck like that you bend them and urge them and the whip was not something I would have done with this horse.

I would have turned her and then urged her forward with your legs. 
It sounds like they are not capable of training her. If you posted the area you are in may be able to suggest some trainers.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Larissa said:


> I understand. The thing that has got me really thinking is that she stopped rearing on the ground after work and is now quiet. The tongue over the bit thing also only happens when she is put into a situation that she can't handle, i.e. one day my trainer had me take her out into the outdoor areana where she had never been with 7 horses being worked around her, after I had only had the mare there 4 days. She did the tongue over the bit thing. The next two times we worked her in the indoor where there was less to focus or stress on but with one or two working horses around her. The tongue thing did not happen. Next time we took her back to the outdoor areana, and there was three or four horses being worked. We had no problems. The tongue thing did not happen. After that, which would be last Friday, my trainer had me ride her. I felt it was way to soon. But she had me do it anyways. She was okay the first 8 mins and I felt we should have stopped at that on a good note as she wasn't doing the tongue thing yet. But she insisted we continued working her and then 2 mins later the tongue thing started to happen and then things started to get worse. So this is what has me thinking.


 what are you using for a bit? tongue over will make them rear.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

churumbeque said:


> what are you using for a bit? tongue over will make them rear.


 She has been in a D ring snaffle, a full cheek snaffle, an O ring snaffle, and a mullen mouth eggbutt. Currently she is in the mullen mouth eggbutt which she works better in. But everytime she gets stressed she does all she can to get her tongue over.


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## mobilenaturaltrainer (Nov 28, 2013)

You say you stopped the rearing on ground so I assume she was tacked up. The process for her first ride should have been on a lead. The first step should be softening by flexing laterally. Then I like the part where you clucked to her, moved your seat, blushed your legs on her and squeezed her. Because she did not move it means that she does not know her "Go Button" cue from her ground training; so go back to ground work with the saddle on and educate her. she should have moved forward. The fact that your trainer had to tapped air, ground, then her with the whip to get her to move means she is not soft on the ground and as not been thought to accept and yield to pressure. The aid ask the horse; your leg, your seat, the training stick and the cue is the pressure; the horse learns from the release of the pressure. 

In the beginning; she will take a couple steps then stop; I try to stop her before she does and praise her for doing the right thing. Your trainer should have been holding the lead mainly because you were nervous and that decreased the horses confidence. I can understand why you were very shook up. If you redid all her groundwork properly she should not have an attitude on the ground but move important the experience she had during her first ride you need to revisit. You know the combination of a Green horse and a Green rider is a recipe for disaster.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

jackboy said:


> If it were me I wouldn't send her back to the person where all this rearing started but wherever you send her is going to have to be someone with great riding skills who is not afraid of this if I was training this mare the very first time she reared under saddle she would think the world had just came to an end fixing this problem is not going to be easy or pretty if I was close I would help you I can since you really want give her a chance and I respect that good luck and keep me posted


The girl who started her had no experience starting horses when she started her. So things didnt turn out very great. But now she has been in college for it for three years. So now she knows the do's and don'ts and is supervised by professors etc. And she may not even be the one who works with her. They deal with rearing horses on a reg basis, so she shouldn't be to much for them. I hope things go good there and she comes back nice. Thank you for encouraging me. It means a lot. I have gotten more get rid of her etc then encouragement which I understand to a extent. I will keep you posted. I am just lunging her until I take her there. I refuse to ride her again and make her issue worse. I also wish I still lived in OK I would take you up on the offer to help. Thank you 

A lot of things I have been told were stuff like "She is not worth it," "If she had papers I would but she doesn't so she isnt worth the time and money." "You cant make a good horse out of puke," "She will NEVER be quiet and nice." So it gets discouraging. And I am not dising anybody. Most this I was told to my face.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

perhaps you should donate her to the program and move on. that is probably the best way to get any real value for her. I sure hope you are talking about Findlay-they have a pretty good program-not sure they really specialize ir rearers…or want that reputation…..but perhaps they can learn something and help her too.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

franknbeans said:


> perhaps you should donate her to the program and move on. that is probably the best way to get any real value for her. I sure hope you are talking about Findlay-they have a pretty good program-not sure they really specialize ir rearers…or want that reputation…..but perhaps they can learn something and help her too.


I am not talking about Findlay. I also will not donate her. I would be out of a nice chunk of money. There is no reason to donate her when I can try to get her fixed and keep her myself.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Sometimes you have to "stop the bleeding"……and not keep spending good money after bad. There are many folks who would NEVER, EVER, own a rearer. Count me in those numbers. That definitely affect her (perceived) value. I understand this is NOT what you want to hear, but there are very few rearers that are corrected. Very few. I owned a horse that had a vice that was undesirable….I lost $$ on him too, but better to lose the $5K today than to keep spending good $$ after bad on training, board, etc…..and never be able to really trust the horse again. Life is too short. But, then-when I was your age-I probably would have felt the same way. I have learned as I have aged….in horsemanship and my limitations.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

franknbeans said:


> Sometimes you have to "stop the bleeding"……and not keep spending good money after bad. There are many folks who would NEVER, EVER, own a rearer. Count me in those numbers. That definitely affect her (perceived) value. I understand this is NOT what you want to hear, but there are very few rearers that are corrected. Very few. I owned a horse that had a vice that was undesirable….I lost $$ on him too, but better to lose the $5K today than to keep spending good $$ after bad on training, board, etc…..and never be able to really trust the horse again. Life is too short. But, then-when I was your age-I probably would have felt the same way. I have learned as I have aged….in horsemanship and my limitations.


My point being, that I took her on KNOWING the problem and working with a trainer who ended up deciding they didn't like the horse and they aren't going to correct it. I am taking her to a place that they have dealt with it time after time. It is my responsibility to do something. If she had papers, most people would have leaned into "Yeah try to get her fixed she has good breeding." But that isn't the point. I get where you're coming from. I just don't get why I would toss a problem that is my responsibility onto another when I can afford to try to get it fixed and make her something. I would have more peace of mind knowing I did what I could vs dumping her somewhere for somebody else to beat the hell out of her and then take her to a sale and get slaughtered. Sorry. I am just fed up .


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Larissa said:


> My point being, that I took her on KNOWING the problem and working with a trainer who ended up deciding they didn't like the horse and they aren't going to correct it. I am taking her to a place that they have dealt with it time after time. It is my responsibility to do something. If she had papers, most people would have leaned into "Yeah try to get her fixed she has good breeding." But that isn't the point. I get where you're coming from. I just don't get why I would toss a problem that is my responsibility onto another when I can afford to try to get it fixed and make her something. I would have more peace of mind knowing I did what I could vs dumping her somewhere for somebody else to beat the hell out of her and then take her to a sale and get slaughtered. Sorry. I am just fed up .



If this is the case, and you knew she was a rearer, why would you be out "a big chunk of money" for getting rid of her. There's no reason you should have spend 'a big chunk of money' on a horse with issues.

You can't save them all. This is one that probably can't be saved.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

As much as I agree that rearing is a problem, I understand where the OP is coming from. She wants to work with this horse and sees potential. She has also taken into consideration all the suggestions about what to do with a rearer that can't be fixed and stated that if necessary/if it comes to that, she will visit those options. Right now she is looking for input for possible solutions, not to be told to give up. 

I had a rearer as well. She would rear when she was confused or scared. But not big rears - the highest was apparently about 2-3 feet off the ground, which is nothing to sneeze at either. I worked with her and found her buttons and also was always on the alert for situations that might be problematic. This horse also needed more time overall than I had for her. However, when she left here she was no longer rearing and her new owner is progressing well with her. 

My point? Not all rearers are unfixable/untrainable. The OP is hoping that her horse can be helped. She has seen progress and appears to be open for help. She does not seem to be irresponsible about it or dreaming about "fixing the unfixable."


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

NorthernMama said:


> As much as I agree that rearing is a problem, I understand where the OP is coming from. She wants to work with this horse and sees potential. She has also taken into consideration all the suggestions about what to do with a rearer that can't be fixed and stated that if necessary/if it comes to that, she will visit those options. Right now she is looking for input for possible solutions, not to be told to give up.
> 
> I had a rearer as well. She would rear when she was confused or scared. But not big rears - the highest was apparently about 2-3 feet off the ground, which is nothing to sneeze at either. I worked with her and found her buttons and also was always on the alert for situations that might be problematic. This horse also needed more time overall than I had for her. However, when she left here she was no longer rearing and her new owner is progressing well with her.
> 
> My point? Not all rearers are unfixable/untrainable. The OP is hoping that her horse can be helped. She has seen progress and appears to be open for help. She does not seem to be irresponsible about it or dreaming about "fixing the unfixable."


Thank you. That is the case to. If she can't be fixed, I will explore other options like pasture pet, companion, showmanship horse (on ground), trick horse (on ground), brood mare, selling, etc. I want no input on how she should not be bred bc she rears. Her rearing is because she has been let get away with it for some time. Outside of the rearing she is a very inquisitive mare, very tolerable of kids pulling on her face, is well built, has a goregous neck, and lovely movement. So past that.. I just want everybody to understand that if I try to get her help, and it doesn't work I am prepared to explore other options and go with one that I feel is best. I realize rearing is dangerous, so is bucking and bolting etc. In general horses are dangerous. You could die standing right next to one simply. But I have seen progress. In January you would not have thought about lunging her on a line, now she lunges on a line. You would not have had her attention in a ring full of other horses being worked, now I get mostly her undivided attention. Yes, she needs reminders. But it is a huge leap. Last week I could only get 2-3 strides of cantering out of her. Today I got three laps. Which I asked for a stop at that. She didn't choose to stop. I have a picture in my head. And something says stick with it. And that is what I am going to do. I am open to hearing about anybody's experience with rearing. How they fixed it. Etc. But I am done hearing give up.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

mobilenaturaltrainer said:


> In the beginning; she will take a couple steps then stop; I try to stop her before she does and praise her for doing the right thing.


I disagree with this statement. The horse does not understand moving forward with a rider or, doesn't want to. The praise should be for when she _does_ take the step forward and not when she stops. 

If she is reluctant to move and will only take one or two steps and them rider is immediately asking for a halt this is going to be more confusing for the animal. 
Confusion can leader frustration and that can exacerbate the rearing.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Cherie said:


> My attitude toward these difficult horses has evolved through the years. I used to think I should 'save' every spoiled horse and natural born idiot. Any more? Not so much.
> 
> Since I have trained horses full-time for more than 50 years, people ask me all of the time what has changed the most in my methods and in training in general. Actually, my methods have changed very little. I kept getting better and better at 'finishing' horses, but my methods are very close to what I started doing more than 50 years ago.
> 
> ...


THIS THIS THIS!!! When I was buying pukes and turning them around for money I found out that for the one really BAD horse you can train three good ones. Since money was tied to it, I stopped getting BAD ones.

and I must say.. I never had a second thought about sending a bad one to the slaughter auction. A bad horse is livestock. A good horse is a working partner.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

It really, _really_ sucks when you are in this position. I currently have a horse that rears too. She is sweet as pie on the ground, loves children, is quite nearly bombproof, just a great little mare. But when she gets stressed, her answer is vertical. 

When I saved her from going to auction last year, my intent with her was to retrain her to be a solid trail horse, with potential as a kids horse. Now it is train her to be safe enough for an experienced rider. I am unwilling to sell this horse until I know she won't be a danger to any potential rider, because I know she has the potential, but no one ever gave her the chance. Her last owner gave her away because she reared and flipped her first time ground driving (his fault). 

If you ride her again, take extra precautions. On my mare, if I feel her getting ready to explode, I have my feet loose in the stirrups. If I feel her barely lift off, my feet will be out of the stirrups and I'll be on the ground.

In my horse's training, I really emphasize forward. Forward gets lots and lots of praise. Before going backwards, I made sure she would give to the bit so I could avoid any head tossing, verticalness while backing. 

As for your trainer, sticking you on her because she doesn't want to.. IMHO I would drop her. If you are paying her to train, she better be training, not risking your life and making you uncomfortable doing it. 

Best of luck with your horse.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Elana said:


> THIS THIS THIS!!! When I was buying pukes and turning them around for money I found out that for the one really BAD horse you can train three good ones. Since money was tied to it, I stopped getting BAD ones.
> 
> and I must say.. I never had a second thought about sending a bad one to the slaughter auction. A bad horse is livestock. A good horse is a working partner.


I specifically asked to hear no more of this negativity. Please respect that. My horse is not a bad horse. She just needs more time, focus, and somebody experienced with rearing. I have seen potential & progress.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

KylieHuitema said:


> It really, _really_ sucks when you are in this position. I currently have a horse that rears too. She is sweet as pie on the ground, loves children, is quite nearly bombproof, just a great little mare. But when she gets stressed, her answer is vertical.
> 
> When I saved her from going to auction last year, my intent with her was to retrain her to be a solid trail horse, with potential as a kids horse. Now it is train her to be safe enough for an experienced rider. I am unwilling to sell this horse until I know she won't be a danger to any potential rider, because I know she has the potential, but no one ever gave her the chance. Her last owner gave her away because she reared and flipped her first time ground driving (his fault).
> 
> ...


My horse is sort of the same confusion & stress cause her to flip her tongue over her bit and once she does that the head goes up higher and the tongue flops all over then you can feel she's ready to rear.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Larissa, I meant no disrespect. Your horse may not be a bad horse the way I meant it. I have not seen her. 

I will say this (and since you are afraid to ride this horse you know this): A horse is 1500 pounds of action with a brain the size of a walnut. A good horse, a bad horse, a horse that has miles on him, a horse that is reputed to be bomb proof or a horse that is green as grass and unhandled.. they are ALL dangerous ALL the time. The best or the worst can kill you in a nanosecond and* never *miss you. 

BE CAREFUL. No one wants your horse with clear and known issues to kill you. And do not think she cannot or would not. 

We miss them when they are gone. We think of their future. They miss another horse more than us when/if we are gone. They live only in the immediate moment. 

You are green. Your horse is green with a known dangerous issue likely brought on by being asked too much too soon and she evaded the question by rearing _and it worked_. They stopped asking! More than once. Now it is a set evasion (all non pain based rearing is evasion as is putting the tongue over the bit). 

Stay safe. No horse is worth your life.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Elana said:


> Larissa, I meant no disrespect. Your horse may not be a bad horse the way I meant it. I have not seen her.
> 
> I will say this (and since you are afraid to ride this horse you know this): A horse is 1500 pounds of action with a brain the size of a walnut. A good horse, a bad horse, a horse that has miles on him, a horse that is reputed to be bomb proof or a horse that is green as grass and unhandled.. they are ALL dangerous ALL the time. The best or the worst can kill you in a nanosecond and* never *miss you.
> 
> ...


Thank you for clarifying that. I appreciate it. My apologizes for assuming. I keep in mind that she can kill me. And that all of them can. I have been raised around horses. Honestly the larger number of horses my father bought me when I was younger had issues... There was the lame one. The one the would buck you off to go home. The one that would be tied and be quiet and fine then freak out to the extent of tearing though the back of her halter. The one the bolted and would not stop. I just have never dealt with rearing. I also did not choose those prev horses btw. Lol. Dad did. I am just trying to be responsible and try to get this problem fixed. I would say I am in the middle range of an intermediate rider. BUT I AM NOT CAPABLE OF BREAKING A HORSE PROPERLY WITHOUT THE HELP OF A TRAINER. Which I got her when I thought things with this trainer would have worked.. But sadly things happen. So I am looking at a diff trainer. I hope that this problem can be fixed. I have seen progress, and I hope under a person who have more experience with this issue she will continue to progress. I just want to try and do what I can before putting her into the category of no hope and exploring those options. I am taking her there on the 19th. Trust me.. Im aware of the danger. Im not afraid to be on her. Or around her. I am afraid when I am on her and she is getting pushed and I can feel she is going to rear. I need a trainer who will help me through those moments and then ask me to get back on and direct me. And I think I found that,


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If the horse will willingly go forward when its on the lunge and when long reined (ground driven) with its saddle and bridle on and accepts resistance pressure on its mouth either from side reins attached to the girth or direct to the hands when long reined and understands the cues to walk and trot then you have to look at other reasons for the rearing - what the rider is maybe doing wrong, too much pressure on the mouth is often the cause and a lot of young horses are best ridden bitless to start with
Does the horse actually understand the transitioning cues from ground to saddle that you're using to ask it to go forwards? They aren't born with magic buttons on their sides that when pressed trigger forward movement - they have to learn to associate a nudge with your legs or heels with the cue to move.
A lot of sensitive horses don't understand or take kindly to getting a heel dug into them when they have no clue why its happening especially if there's a pair of hands on the reins restricting their forwards action - so the only place for them to go is upwards
If the saddle isn't causing discomfort then the horse needs to have a vet do a proper investigation of its back with X rays, ultra sound techniques etc because no chiropractor or anyone else can tell whats really going on under the skin - and there are plenty of things that can be going on that will cause pain to the horse once the weight of a rider is introduced that can't be fixed by a quick massage or some 'adjustment'
I wouldn't even think about getting on a horse like this until anything physical was correctly ruled out
Selling the horse is an option but if you're going to be honest about its rearing and not put someone at risk by keeping quiet about it then I honestly don't think you're going to get much money for it.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

jaydee said:


> If the horse will willingly go forward when its on the lunge and when long reined (ground driven) with its saddle and bridle on and accepts resistance pressure on its mouth either from side reins attached to the girth or direct to the hands when long reined and understands the cues to walk and trot then you have to look at other reasons for the rearing - what the rider is maybe doing wrong, too much pressure on the mouth is often the cause and a lot of young horses are best ridden bitless to start with
> Does the horse actually understand the transitioning cues from ground to saddle that you're using to ask it to go forwards? They aren't born with magic buttons on their sides that when pressed trigger forward movement - they have to learn to associate a nudge with your legs or heels with the cue to move.
> A lot of sensitive horses don't understand or take kindly to getting a heel dug into them when they have no clue why its happening especially if there's a pair of hands on the reins restricting their forwards action - so the only place for them to go is upwards
> If the saddle isn't causing discomfort then the horse needs to have a vet do a proper investigation of its back with X rays, ultra sound techniques etc because no chiropractor or anyone else can tell whats really going on under the skin - and there are plenty of things that can be going on that will cause pain to the horse once the weight of a rider is introduced that can't be fixed by a quick massage or some 'adjustment'
> ...


Selling is not an option until I have outruled other things and shes come back from the trainer. And that is if I can't handle her then. But I get where you are coming from. It is confusing because, I asked with a cluck for walk and trot, and for a canter I kiss to the horse. Followed with more pressure if needed. When lunging her, I do not need a whip to speed her up 99.9% of the time. She understand those commands. She drives fairly decent. I think it could use more work. I repeat again. I feel the trainer rushed things. They moved much faster then I had wanted. But I did as she said. I feel the first ride was almost set up to fail. Not by my choices. I know she rears or prepares when over stimulated, over stressed, or confused.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Just off hand.. is she set up in a proper rig for lunging? Do you have side reins, the saddle on, a bridle and a lunging cavesson? 

I am wondering if just that much lunging would get a copy cat reaction and rearing? I mean side reins that are only tight enough to engage contact if she lowers her head and seeks it. 

What I am thinking here is adding all the components of riding without the weight of a rider on her back.. and DO lunge with a whip ALWAYS (even if you just hold it). Lunging can bring out a lot of "stuff" if the horse has "stuff" and this horse clearly has "stuff."


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Elana said:


> Just off hand.. is she set up in a proper rig for lunging? Do you have side reins, the saddle on, a bridle and a lunging cavesson?
> 
> I am wondering if just that much lunging would get a copy cat reaction and rearing? I mean side reins that are only tight enough to engage contact if she lowers her head and seeks it.
> 
> What I am thinking here is adding all the components of riding without the weight of a rider on her back.. and DO lunge with a whip ALWAYS (even if you just hold it). Lunging can bring out a lot of "stuff" if the horse has "stuff" and this horse clearly has "stuff."


I always lunge with a whip. ALWAYS. I just met like I generally don't have to get after her with it to speed her up. She is lunged in her saddle (Western) a halter (With a chain going over her nose), and bridle. We never ever clip the lunge line to the bridle. But the bridle is always on. We don't lunge in side reins either. We have "tied her up" in a stall before like tying her rein to the saddle enough that teaches her to give to the pressure and sort of causes her to flex a little. We switch the chain each time we change sides. We do not use lunging cavessons. She is very very focused, eager to please, and respectful lunging. We do lots of transitions. She has never once kicked out, bucked, reared, etc while lunging. Her rearing happens when she refuses to go forwards and you make her. IE on ground (without saddle etc) when leading her, if she decided she wanted to stop and whiney to the other horses and you kept asking for forward she would rear. We got that solved. We put a stud chain on her halter for added control if needed. I know how to use it properly. And she reared twice after that I believe each time recieved a hard jerk on the rope as she was going up and up and told "Cut it out." She has not repeated that since.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

OK. Here is a suggestion. Do not lunge her in a halter with the chain over her nose. Get a proper lunging cavesson and use side reins. Do this right. As she is out there if she gets distracted DRIVE HER FORWARD with the WHIP. A horse cannot go forward and rear. 

What this is doing is teaching her that forward is a must. The chain over her nose is a stopping device.. and STOP is not what you want. You want forward forward forward. That needs to be the answer to any question she has. 

The chain over the nose aside from being a wreck waiting to happen is in serious conflict with the drive forward. 

You are sending her out on the 19th. You can get her thinking forward and you have a lot of time between now and then to do that. You are going to spend a lot of money on a trainer. Spend a little on a lunging cavesson and then make her REALLY WORK (and that does not mean endless mindless circles.. but thinking work). 
Tracking up and so forth. 

You might cure more than you think by this one simple thing.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Elana said:


> OK. Here is a suggestion. Do not lunge her in a halter with the chain over her nose. Get a proper lunging cavesson and use side reins. Do this right. As she is out there if she gets distracted DRIVE HER FORWARD with the WHIP. A horse cannot go forward and rear.
> 
> What this is doing is teaching her that forward is a must. The chain over her nose is a stopping device.. and STOP is not what you want. You want forward forward forward. That needs to be the answer to any question she has.
> 
> ...


Used correct, the chain has purpose. She will lean on the line when lunging. It helps with this. She was much worse without the chain honestly. I can't get a lot done if she is dragging me around and all that. We have tried a side pull halter, a rope halter, and a normal halter. She just will lean all over them. I will look into one But right now it is not an option as I can't afford one. She moves out forward very nicely. Until you are on her. Than she will go a handful of circles then decides she has had enough


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

A chain over the nose is not to be used for lunging. That would be your first issue - not using proper equipment. Try a rope halter if she leans. Much safer than a chain. My personal preference for lunging is in full tack, just MO.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

palogal said:


> A chain over the nose is not to be used for lunging. That would be your first issue - not using proper equipment. Try a rope halter if she leans. Much safer than a chain. My personal preference for lunging is in full tack, just MO.


I do not have issues with lunging. Many trainers do this. I have seen a lot do it. So it isn't just me. So moving forward past this.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Larissa said:


> I do not have issues with lunging. *Many trainers do this.* I have seen a lot do it. So it isn't just me. So moving forward past this.


 *No, they don't. *Problem #2 - you need a better trainer that knows how to lunge properly.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

palogal said:


> *No, they don't. *Problem #2 - you need a better trainer that knows how to lunge properly.


Okay. I say that because I have seen many people use them. Could you please give me suggestions on what to do then? As far as her leaning on the line and pulling me around on it. I can't find a rope halter that fits her head correctly. So its hard to have them work right on her bc the knots don't set where they should. But any and all suggestions for when I get her home will be appreciated. Im sorry. I didn't realize you shouldn't do this. Why shouldn't you, if I may ask? Once again thank you.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

it sounds to me that your horse is lacking on one of the most basic things that horses must learn to be a riding horse: to give to pressure. fundamentally, this is to give to the pressure of the rope, the leadline, and eventually the rein.

A horse can get all the way up to being a riding horse without really , truly learning to give to pressure. those are the ones that do things like pull back when tied, or don't lead up well, or lean on the line when being lunged.

the rider /handler "manages" with this gap in the hrose's training, in various ways. To be honest, many if not most riders ride a horse that is not nearly as well trained to give to pressure as he /she should be. but, for most of us, we manage, and it's "good enough". But, if the horse really gets stuck, then that little missing link becomes the place where all these other problems cascade down from.

and, giving to pressure is linked with the horse learning that there is "freedom in foreward", becuase when the baby is learning to lead, he learns that when he comes up and off the pressure, moving forward, the pressure stops. he gives to pressure not just by stopping, but by coming foreward, too.

if you must use a chain on the horse's nose every time you lunge, then no improvement or learning to give has taken place, becuase the needed pressure has not become less. one uses really strong tools , such as a chain, to teach the horse that they can have freedom if they give, and working on making the needed pressure less and less, as the horse figures out and becomes willing to respond to less and less. 

have you ever looked into reading about, or watching dvd's on colt starting? like Buck Branaman's colt starting series? it might help you look back and see if you can figure out how to basically restart the mare.

I have no personal experience starting colts. I would not be able to suggest specifics, but these thoughts come to mind when you explain how she lunges and leads. something to ponder.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> it sounds to me that your horse is lacking on one of the most basic things that horses must learn to be a riding horse: to give to pressure. fundamentally, this is to give to the pressure of the rope, the leadline, and eventually the rein.
> 
> A horse can get all the way up to being a riding horse without really , truly learning to give to pressure. those are the ones that do things like pull back when tied, or don't lead up well, or lean on the line when being lunged.
> 
> ...


She will lead fine without it, but if she gets distracted she doesn't refocus as fast and doesn't back as softly. We started using it as a extra bite when she reared while I was leading her. She doesn't rear while leading anymore and never has when lunging.Then the trainer had me use it lunging as they do on there other horses even the very very very expensive WP horses.. She leans the most on the lunge line in a canter. She does give to pressure. She steers pretty well honestly even under saddle. Until she gets upset/stressed. So I know there is room for improvement. I want her to be as soft as possible. And anything that I have done with her has been because the trainer had me do it. I watched the Downunder Horsemanship Colt starting videos. But I could not use them at the barn because they don't believe in "methods" and because they were helping me train her. Things went their way. When she gets home from training at the other place, I am going to add a lot to her ground work and all and start following the downunder method with her like I originally wanted to as that method worked for me and the others horses I had prev..


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Larissa said:


> Okay. I say that because I have seen many people use them. Could you please give me suggestions on what to do then? As far as her leaning on the line and pulling me around on it. I can't find a rope halter that fits her head correctly. So its hard to have them work right on her bc the knots don't set where they should. But any and all suggestions for when I get her home will be appreciated. Im sorry. I didn't realize you shouldn't do this. Why shouldn't you, if I may ask? Once again thank you.


She really needs to go back to basic ground work before you start lunging her. Find a knot halter that fits and teach her to yield to it.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I have never found a rope halter to really be effective on a horse that's determined to drag you around - yes better than a standard leather or synthetic but not as good as leading them in a bridle direct off the bit - I use a connecting strap. If I have a horse that's inclined to rear when being led then it gets led in a chifney until it realizes its not a good idea
I have had one horse that would rear and go over when she put her tongue over the bit - we put her in an English hackamore to break the cycle of the habit and then rode her in a flash noseband. She never did it again
Some horses really do take a lot longer to learn things - our Clyde X is incredibly dense yet she really wants to please - but she will go into a total meltdown if you try to put too much pressure on her and she gets confused
If she understands your cues on the ground then she should understand them from the saddle. The proof of that is 'will she respond to them without the lunge whip? I use verbal cues - walk, trot, canter, whoa etc - and I expect the horse to respond to those without me needing a whip in my hand before I get on and start the switch over to using them from the saddle
Provided there is no physical reason your horse is doing the rearing - or at least one that can't be fixed then the right person using the right tactics could overcome the problem. I came across this horse on Youtube and would have said it was a lost cause and yet 3 years on its a reformed character - it doesn't work for them all and it takes a very good horseman/woman to do it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Dgp-qc0P5s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPhx9ETxExk


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

There are many good ways to lunge a horse. I know.. you want to use the chain but TinyLiny is correct. It is not where you want to go.. and really and truly the evasion of rearing is very much tied to not giving to pressure (and one of the most common reasons for rearing to start). 

Training a horse is pressure and release of pressure. The pressure is applied as a request.. and the giving to the pressure so it is released is the reward. Pressure can come from many things, including body language on the ground, or squeezing your leg on the side of the horse or pulling on a lunge line or lead line. The trick in pressure and release is timing. _Most beginning riders and trainers are not good at timing!! _Some horses (and this mare sounds like one of them) evade pressure instead of giving and need the timing to be perfect while they are learning. Some horses, when you first start training them feel trapped by pressure and will rear (or buck!) instead of giving and I wonder if that is not what happened here. We will never really know.. you have what you have now.

If a horse never learns to give, then the less than knowledgeable trainer (like those in this horse's past) will increase the pressure (chain over the nose, harsher bits and so forth). 

The horse, in response to the increased pressure may sometimes give just enough for the trainer to think they have learned.. but if in any aspect of the training the horse is still requiring greater pressure to be controlled (such as leading distractions and lunging distractions or dragging you about the ring when lunged in normal gear) then the horse has not truly learned. 

A horse that rears habitually often is the result of a trainer adding too much pressure to begin with and then further exacerbating the problem by not releasing the pressure at the slightest give. 

This horse needs a chain on her nose to be (easily) lunged. That is very very wrong for a variety of reasons and indicates clearly the lessons of pressure and release have not been well learned. You are saying she leans on the lunge line and drags you around the arena when lunged w/o the chain. The first question I ask is how big is your lunge circle and how big is this horse? A big bodied or long strided green horse will need all of a 30 foot lunge line to move comfortably on a circle. Are you making the circle too small? A little difference like a typical 24 foot lunge line.. made shorter by the chain over the nose.. (they should not even MAKE such a line for lunging IMO) can be very very hard for a long strided horse to work on. Circumference is Pi X Diameter.. so a 22.5 foot lunge line (taking into account the chain) give the horse a circle that is almost 71 feet in circumference. A 30 foot lunge line with no chain is just over 94 feet in circumference.. or two times the length of the horse longer!!! It can be a HUGE difference in a long strided horse that is pretty green! 

The side reins can help her if she is one of those long strided horses as will the larger circle. She can find her stride and her balance with the limits of the side reins. These are loose at first. You know she is making headway when she stretches down for the bit as she is trotting easily around on the lunge. Trotting is your friend on the lunge line!!

If you cannot afford a proper lunge cavesson, then take your 30 foot lunge line and run it from your hand through the snaffle ring (on the inside of the circle) up over her poll and clip it to the snaffle ring on the opposite side. You will have to stop her and reverse the arrangement to reverse direction. Yes.. this does decrease the size of the circle.. but that is the correct lunge set up with a horse when no cavesson is available. 

In ground work you need to go back to basics and teach her to give to pressure. It sounds like you have been doing this with some success! 

Now you need to up the ante to include reminding her to totally give you her attention no matter what the distraction. You need to teach her that YOU own her feet and her moving her feet. 

Her reward for giving to pressure and to paying attention is she gets to stop moving her feet. If she gets distracted she is ignoring you.. giant lack of respect there. She gets distracted you move her.. backwards, forwards, right, then left.. quickly keep her moving until her focus is totally on you.. at which point she can stop moving her feet. Rinse and repeat every time she is distracted. 

Get her to understand that if she is distracted, you will put the pressure on.. and the minute she is focused on you then the pressure comes off. 

You have until she goes to the trainer to get this working for you. I suspect she may rear a time or two because she has learned she can do that to back the pressure off. If she does, really lean into her driving her forward when those feet hit the ground. A horse moving smartly forward cannot rear. They have to stop to do that... and she needs to learn stopping is up to YOU and not HER. 

Good luck!!!!


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

jaydee said:


> I have never found a rope halter to really be effective on a horse that's determined to drag you around - yes better than a standard leather or synthetic but not as good as leading them in a bridle direct off the bit - I use a connecting strap. If I have a horse that's inclined to rear when being led then it gets led in a chifney until it realizes its not a good idea
> I have had one horse that would rear and go over when she put her tongue over the bit - we put her in an English hackamore to break the cycle of the habit and then rode her in a flash noseband. She never did it again
> Some horses really do take a lot longer to learn things - our Clyde X is incredibly dense yet she really wants to please - but she will go into a total meltdown if you try to put too much pressure on her and she gets confused
> If she understands your cues on the ground then she should understand them from the saddle. The proof of that is 'will she respond to them without the lunge whip? I use verbal cues - walk, trot, canter, whoa etc - and I expect the horse to respond to those without me needing a whip in my hand before I get on and start the switch over to using them from the saddle
> ...


 I also agree. I find that a rope halter is better. But if they want to lean on the line when lunging, they will still do it then. Honestly. I like how she lunges with the chain. She doesn't drag me around. I have come to no reason as to why I shouldn't lunge her with it other then being told by a couple people not to. But then there are people who do. So I am thinking it may just be opinions. I have searched it online. And while some people say yay, others say nay. I realize if you slammed and mashed the horse's face with it, it would be bad. But that is not how I use it. I run it through the side ring, loop over the nose, out the other side ring, then clip on the top side ring. 
Where I am taking her they will start her in a training bosal. Once she is excepting the bit in the stall and round-pen along with the arena they will start using a bit. So for a while her tongue will be irrelevant to anything lol. What bit did you use on yours with the flash noseband? I plan to go English and Western with her. But since I have changed trainers, I am staying Western until she is quiet and nice then will introduce English. It is easier to stay in a Western saddle if and when she decides she is going to have a moment. I am checking out those links now.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Elana said:


> There are many good ways to lunge a horse. I know.. you want to use the chain but TinyLiny is correct. It is not where you want to go.. and really and truly the evasion of rearing is very much tied to not giving to pressure (and one of the most common reasons for rearing to start).
> 
> Training a horse is pressure and release of pressure. The pressure is applied as a request.. and the giving to the pressure so it is released is the reward. Pressure can come from many things, including body language on the ground, or squeezing your leg on the side of the horse or pulling on a lunge line or lead line. The trick in pressure and release is timing. _Most beginning riders and trainers are not good at timing!! _Some horses (and this mare sounds like one of them) evade pressure instead of giving and need the timing to be perfect while they are learning. Some horses, when you first start training them feel trapped by pressure and will rear (or buck!) instead of giving and I wonder if that is not what happened here. We will never really know.. you have what you have now.
> 
> ...



I am listening, and trying to learn. So please bear with me. I just wanted to state that I do know a bit. I am not a beginner. So I do know about the pressure and release etc. I am making the things you say bold so I can reply to the parts that caught my attention. Okay.. So why don't I want to use a chain? I mean she works without it, but not as nicely. She gives some without, but not enough. The on ground rearing happened without a chain. We added a chain and it stopped. I feel my timing is decent. I try to keep my timing as exact as I can. My horse is little. She just and I mean JUST hits 14.2. She has strides that in proportion to her size. So they are small but not choppy. The lunge line is 24 ft. With a chain clipped. It isn't attached and made onto the line. So the actual line is still the 24 feet. I don't give her all the space typically. Sometimes I do. Sometimes a give her a few feet less. She works with same either way. I have been trying to be VERY black and white with her. Honestly she acts like a 3 or 4 year old but in a 6 year old body. Not maturity wise, but like she is naughty. And tries a lot to see what will work and what wont. So I am being very black and white with her. And I have seen improvements. She loves to please. I just need to get through the issues we are having


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

24 feet X 3.14 (Pi) = 75 feet.. still quite short of 94 feet. 

Yes she is like a 3-4 year old because she IS only that due to not being trained and so forth. You have nailed that. That is as much the reason for her being difficult on the lunge as being big. The things she needed to learn that would have created muscle memory were never learned. She is a fractious 3-4 year old! 

YOU understand the pressure and release. From your description the horse does not (not in all circumstances). If she did, she would still be mindful (respectful) of you when distracted. 

This is why I took the time to write all that I did. If she tries to see what will work and what won't you need to redirect that energy and puzzle solving into what you want her to do.. and have her work on what will and won't work for what you ask.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The bit I have is like this - this is taken from a UK website but mine is exactly the same, I was just too lazy to go and search in the barn for it to photograph!!! Not sure if you can get them in the US though I've seen similar
I can't comment on the chain as I've never used one like that - but I've seen the oddest things work for some horses and as long as you aren't yanking on it and its not stopping him going forwards then its probably not a big deal
Horses that lean on the lunge or race around with their heads in the air can respond well to attaching the clip to the bit on the opposite side to the one you're standing on and running the rein over the poll and then threading it through the bit on the side nearest to you. The drawback with this method is that you have to stop and change it around when you want to change direction.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

OP, I just want to add my voice to the folks that say lunging in a chain is not good at this point.

I also want to say i agree with you completely when you said the trainer moved too quickly with your horse! She was not ready for what she was being asked to do, so no wonder she was rearing! 

Like you, I am also a person who likes Clinton Anderson. In 2011, I was stuck on the ground for 5 months with my horse because I was recovering from an accident. I used stuff from his method to work with my horse on the ground. 

Anyway, CA says that when you are training a horse, you want to ASK, then TELL, then DEMAND. An example of that is when asking the horse to go forward, you squeeze with your legs, then cluck, then spank. As the horse learns the progression, he will respond when you spank, then respond when you cluck, and eventually respond when you squeeze. He is learning to respond to lighter and lighter signals from you. A horse is truly trained when it responds to your PRE signal. CA often says horse should really only need 1 ounce of pressure in a signal from you. 

If your mare needs a chain on lunging, then she is only responding to the heaviest of signals. She is needing 10 pounds of pressure, and nowhere near the 1 oz. you would like for her. Until she can respond to 1 oz, she is not ready to go to the next steps.

Now, I am not that great at lunging, and many folks on here know much more than me. I only do the lunging for respect that CA teaches, which is on a pretty small circle using a 15 foot lead(and with a horse that pulls with its head, I would make it a 25 foot lead.) I change directions often. I make sure the horse's head is tipped in towards me at all times so that it can't get leverage and pull away from me. If the horse is one to pull with the head, I keep it in a small enough pen and with a long enough rope ( 25 ft) that even if it gets away for a minute, I still have more rope than there is pen, so I can pull it back to me. Oh, and I always wear gloves with a horse that pulls. I have lost enough skin to learn that lesson, plus it makes me able to respond with more strength when needed.

If I were in your shoes, I would work on lunging for respect. I would do lots of ground driving, never allowing the horse to stop of its own accord. I would ask, tell and demand always. I would also teach the horse to flex its head to both sides (horse bends head to touch nose to its own ribs, where your foot would be if you were in the saddle). You can flex the horses head on the ground, using a rope halter and lead, or a bridle and reins. 

I am glad you are getting another trainer! Just be certain that you and the trainer both agree that the goal is to get the horse to respond to the light pressure before moving on to the next training task. I think this is where your mare got in trouble because, as you said so well, she was moved too fast by the trainer to the next thing, and she wasn't ready for it!


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Foxtail Ranch said:


> OP, I just want to add my voice to the folks that say lunging in a chain is not good at this point.
> 
> I also want to say i agree with you completely when you said the trainer moved too quickly with your horse! She was not ready for what she was being asked to do, so no wonder she was rearing!
> 
> ...


I can lead her without a chain on the halter. Lunging I have to use the chain. I get what you are saying and I wish I did not have to. But I have tried the rope halter etc. And its counter productive if she is dragging me around. Honestly, she doesn't lean and the line has a very light contact or slack with the chain over her nose. IMO if it works for the horse, hey. Go for it. And in my situation this is what works best. I am going to continue to lunge her with a chain for now. When she comes back, if they got her to lunge NICE without one I will lunge without one. If not she is staying in it. 
On a diff note.. We do lots of lunging. She is very attentive. Many changes of direction and transitions. So we are doing good on the lunging for respect part. I plan to really add to her groundwork when she comes back. But yeah. She was def moved far to fast. I am hoping this training school helps! In the future I will try to get her soft enough to lunge without it. But for now I cannot


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Sounds like part of the leaning (I agree with giving to pressure, but even a horse that does "know" may have trouble if..) is because she's unbalanced.

You cannot use a chain properly while lunging. There is no give and take and you could easily hurt her. Yes she's better because it hurts if she leans, it won't teach her to not lean. What I do with a horse that leans (for whatever reason) is run the line over the poll. It won't hurt them, it won't put pressure unless they pull (there will always be pressure with the chain) if it does pull it still won't hurt or cause damage and isn't so much a "stop" as the chain is (if someone puts pressure on your nose you're more likely to stop than if they put pressure on the back of your head) she's rearing because she's being told to go and stop at the same time.

As said a drawback is you'll need to swap the line when you change directions but same for the chain.

What have you tried before the chain? It sounds like (for comparisons sake) you had trouble with her in a snaffle for training reasons so you moved her up into a bicycle gag bit and say "oh it works!" when the proper next step would be the same, or _slightly_ stronger bit (say a thinner snaffle) and proper training. The bicycle gag shouldn't even be used on a horse that does "need" it.

I hope that clarifies where we are coming from for you.

I would never lunge ANY horse in a chain, short of a horse actually trying to hurt me. Definitely not for a young confused unbalanced horse. It's dangerous and a step back/bandaid in training. Not only that but it's making her rearing issue worse even if it's not readily apparent.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

One HUGE thing in the horse world is just because people do it doesn't make it right!!


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I read through this thread again... just to see if I missed anything. 

This horse has a problem for sure and is not being helped by her owner/handler. I read the bicycle gag comment.. and it is much like the chain lunging. 

It also appears (and I could be wrong) that the owner thinks taking the horse to a trainer (which costs a good bit of money) is going to fix the horse.. sort of like sending a car to have a sway bar repaired. Comes back "all better." I wish it worked like that.. but it does not. 

While the OP sounds open to suggestions and ideas.. in the end she does not say at any point, "gee I will try that." Instead it is more of "I did XYZ and now I am doing L" pretty immovable. Lots of good advice here too.

Anyway.. good luck.. as I have said before. I am stepping out of this conversation. Hope it all works, the trainer turns the rearing horse into a push button easy horse all repaired and good and no one gets hurt.


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

Elana, you took the words out of my mouth! I read through this thread earlier and my reaction was pretty much the same.

OP, you say that the chain over the nose for lunging was your trainer's suggestion... but you seem clear that your trainer hasn't been doing a good job with your horse. If your trainer's so manifestly off-track to get you in the saddle before you were both ready, why are you so keen to follow her advice about the lunging tack? 

I myself am no expert but you have received good advice from various highly competent horse-men and women. They have taken the time to explain carefully and I don't understand why you are unwilling to try out a different lunging method.

I know you say she lunges ok, but you also say you're keen to get her soft in her responses .... which doesn't sound compatible with the chain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

All of this advice is excellent, but it doesn't change the ingredients:
You, novice horse owner
Your horse...who rears
ALL of us have learned things with horses the hard way. I am still, at 56yo able to ride and train my horses. I have owned ~35 horses in ~30 years and I sold those that I couldn't work with, couldn't retrain, or didn't want to retrain bc it wasn't worth $.
*We ALL have bought the wrong horses and had to eat the money.*
PLEASE, get your head out of the sand and realize the the first few posts were correct.
Get a finished horse that you can enjoy and then post about "How do I lunge/train my horse?" All of the members who gave you good advice about this will still be here to help.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> Sounds like part of the leaning (I agree with giving to pressure, but even a horse that does "know" may have trouble if..) is because she's unbalanced.
> 
> You cannot use a chain properly while lunging. There is no give and take and you could easily hurt her. Yes she's better because it hurts if she leans, it won't teach her to not lean. What I do with a horse that leans (for whatever reason) is run the line over the poll. It won't hurt them, it won't put pressure unless they pull (there will always be pressure with the chain) if it does pull it still won't hurt or cause damage and isn't so much a "stop" as the chain is (if someone puts pressure on your nose you're more likely to stop than if they put pressure on the back of your head) she's rearing because she's being told to go and stop at the same time.
> 
> ...


She DOES NOT and never has reared while being lunged. The chain is what stopped her rearing when leading. She reared when leading before. I am open to other things for lunging. But I can only do so much. I can't just say "I am doing this how I want and what you say is irelevant" to the trainer. Whether she is wrong or right having me use it. She made the call not me. I am not crazy to jump off of it. Because she is nicer with it. When she comes back form going to the new trainer, I will try. 

Before the chain we tried normal halters, and rope halters.

She doesn't do well in a snaffle, because the nut cracker action and her low pallet and huge fat tongue. I have her in a MULLEN MOUTH EGGBUTT BIT NOT a bicycle gag. I have never even seen that kind of bit until I just looked it up. A Mullen Mouth Eggbut bit is very mild. I don't know where that even came from.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Elana said:


> I read through this thread again... just to see if I missed anything.
> 
> This horse has a problem for sure and is not being helped by her owner/handler. I read the bicycle gag comment.. and it is much like the chain lunging.
> 
> ...


I don't think taking her there is going to make her perfect and fix everything. I know better. I explained in my reply just before yours to somebody else, that I would try different things while lunging her, but I can't just tell the trainer "No I am doing what I want and what you want is irelevent." Do you get what I mean?


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Bondre said:


> Elana, you took the words out of my mouth! I read through this thread earlier and my reaction was pretty much the same.
> 
> OP, you say that the chain over the nose for lunging was your trainer's suggestion... but you seem clear that your trainer hasn't been doing a good job with your horse. If your trainer's so manifestly off-track to get you in the saddle before you were both ready, why are you so keen to follow her advice about the lunging tack?
> 
> ...


Because some things she does are good. And I would try differernt things, I WOULD and I do WANT to. But I cant just tell her "No I am doing things my way, and what you want or think is irelevent." My horse leaves there on the 19th. So I have to keep some peace until then. When she gets back, I will try these things. I am not trying to seem immovable or anything. I have wrote down suggestions on the lunging to use them when she is back from the other trainer. I should have expressed this, so I did not seem like I was unwilling. So I apologize.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Without seeing this horse I think I would have it on the lunge with two lines attached to the bit. That stops them towing off and makes them use their hocks too. 
I would have correctly fitted end side reins. I would do more long reining out and about than actual lungeing and when it came time to backing this mare I would have someone lunge her for a few days and then when mounted work her on the lunge, something she is familiar with.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Now that I clarified why I can't use certain suggestions. Because I have to keep peace until she is off the trainers place next week. I want to apologize to everybody for seeming unwilling. I am not a novice owner. I just don't know how to deal withe everything or know everything. Nobody does. I would like to continue hearing suggestions. And ask questions. I was curious if the line over the poll wouild make her feel trapped?


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> Without seeing this horse I think I would have it on the lunge with two lines attached to the bit. That stops them towing off and makes them use their hocks too.
> I would have correctly fitted end side reins. I would do more long reining out and about than actual lungeing and when it came time to backing this mare I would have someone lunge her for a few days and then when mounted work her on the lunge, something she is familiar with.


I like this suggestion. I believe in that too. I like when the first few rides you are more of a "pasenger" while they are being lunged. Because it is familiar. I have never used side reins. Could you tell me more about them and how to?


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Elana said:


> I read through this thread again... just to see if I missed anything.
> 
> This horse has a problem for sure and is not being helped by her owner/handler. I read the bicycle gag comment.. and it is much like the chain lunging.
> 
> ...


Even if the horse does come back fixed if the handling that caused the problem doesn't change she will just revert since she will be "retaught" to rear, it's not like she will forget forever.


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

I can understand your need to keep the peace for the moment. Sorry if I seemed over-critical. Good luck with your horse, and keep posting with your progress.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Larissa said:


> She DOES NOT and never has reared while being lunged. The chain is what stopped her rearing when leading. She reared when leading before. I am open to other things for lunging. But I can only do so much. I can't just say "I am doing this how I want and what you say is irelevant" to the trainer. Whether she is wrong or right having me use it. She made the call not me. I am not crazy to jump off of it. Because she is nicer with it. When she comes back form going to the new trainer, I will try.
> 
> Before the chain we tried normal halters, and rope halters.
> 
> She doesn't do well in a snaffle, because the nut cracker action and her low pallet and huge fat tongue. I have her in a MULLEN MOUTH EGGBUTT BIT NOT a bicycle gag. I have never even seen that kind of bit until I just looked it up. A Mullen Mouth Eggbut bit is very mild. I don't know where that even came from.


As I said the bicycle gag was a comparison
swapping to that from a snaffle because she is hot

putting on a chain because she leans

Think of how much of a bandaid a bicycle gag would be. It wouldn't improve her training it would stop her through pain.

This is what you are doing with the chain.

Isn't this the trainer that won't even get on your horse? She obviously has no idea..

Either way at the end of the day YOU call the shots.

Would I send my horse off to an otherwise excellent trainer that used a bicycle gag on him, or hit him when she was angry, or was afraid to get on him? (Not saying your trainer hits, stop taking me literally lol) Those things are all deal breakers. As the horses owner YOU are responsible for how they are handled.

You say you are open to other things...

Did you ever try the lead line over the poll? The horse will lean and you will put pressure and the horse will learn to not lean. The horse can't learn if the situation does not come up.

My trainer ALWAYS starts horses with the line over the poll. It gives you more control, and is a tool, which imo a chain, while lunging at least, has no up side.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> Even if the horse does come back fixed if the handling that caused the problem doesn't change she will just revert since she will be "retaught" to rear, it's not like she will forget forever.


I didnt cause the problem. The prev owner did. It was all an attitude thing. When she was tired of working etc she would rear, they ignored it. She was never taught that it was bad and there is punishment from it. I stopped the rearing on the ground. STOPPED it. NOT caused it. So the handling that caused it was her prev owner ignoring it, she was naughty and trying that and never got punished from them. So she learned it was okay. I taught her on the ground it is UNACCEPTABLE. I just can't teach her under saddle, so I am getting help with that. No rudeness meant from this at all..


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Larissa said:


> Now that I clarified why I can't use certain suggestions. Because I have to keep peace until she is off the trainers place next week. I want to apologize to everybody for seeming unwilling. I am not a novice owner. I just don't know how to deal withe everything or know everything. Nobody does. I would like to continue hearing suggestions. And ask questions. I was curious if the line over the poll wouild make her feel trapped?


No. The chain is very heavy. It puts constant pressure, if anything that will make her feel trapped.

The line is light and you run it over the normal halter (I wouldn't use a rope for this, no good way to attach) there won't be any pressure unless she pulls and it's your job to pull _and give_ when she does that to teach her not to lean (nice big circles too!) Remember she can't lean if there's nothing to lean on.

I am glad you are open to suggestions. I don't like the way you are going about it persay though I do understand. It would be in your horses best interest to change things up BEFORE she leaves not when she comes back (and I would ask the new trainer exactly how she does everything and try to copy that at least at first)

Thank you for keeping an open mind and not getting offended when we get frustrated lol.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> As I said the bicycle gag was a comparison
> swapping to that from a snaffle because she is hot
> 
> putting on a chain because she leans
> ...


Oh.. Sorry.. I didn't realize it was a comparison.. Yeah this is the trainer.. She is going away this weekend and I will be at the barn by myself.. I think I may try it then.. Can you explain to me a little in depth of exactly how to do the lead line over the poll thing?


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Put her bridle on and put the lunge line through the bit ring closest to you put it over her poll and clip it to the bit on the other side. I don't know that I would do this, pressure on the poll may be her issue.

I would try long-lining. It's better than lunging anyway IMO. I hold the inside rein like a lunge line (not threaded through the surcingle) and put other side on through the surcingle. I find that it makes them less claustrophobic.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

It's ok  Just trying to make a point

I do understand not causing drama..

If you want to try it start (on the closer side) up through the side ring, over the poll, snap onto the other side ring.

Could only find one remotely decent pic



See how it goes through the bit over the poll (it will snap onto the bit on the other side) You CAN do this with a bridle though I suggest starting with a halter (I would stay far away from her nose and mouth for now).

Remember YOU need to give and take "bump" her off the leaning and back onto the circle (on a big circle so she doesn't HAVE to lean)

One of my horses is VERY unbalanced and strong (My Arab can wtc on a tiny circle very nicely lol) and I put it like that simply because I cannot hold him otherwise, he's not being bad, he's trying to do what I want, he just has trouble with it.

Don't throw this method out the window after the first try, she WILL try to lean, it will take a couple of tries to _teach_ her not to lean. I do think you'll see an improvement, it may be a little more work for you but you won't be being dragged all over the place. I bet after lunging her like this several times it will be obvious it is working.

There are other things too, such as basically "reteaching" her though if you think she is very good other than the leaning I'd suggest starting with this.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> It's ok  Just trying to make a point
> 
> I do understand not causing drama..
> 
> ...


Thank you  I may try this today. And if they ask what I am doing, I will just tell them trying something new. And cut the convo like that. I will try it on the halter. I think the bridle would be to much honestly. Would this work if her bridle was on her over her halter? Or do I need to leave it off while I do this


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Yes.

I do think the bridle will be too much. It will give her pressure on the poll AND in her mouth. That will make her feel trapped. So would NOT recommend lunging (with anything) from the bridle at this point.

I would put whatever you're using on top. So bridle, halter, run it through the halter (reins off). I would try to keep it simple though so unless she is used to both I would do just the halter.

Long lining is good though I don't think will help with the issue at hand. I like the suggestions of an outside line while lunging too, though again personally would start with this.

Don't let her lean


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## liltuktuk (Dec 16, 2011)

It's your horse. If they ask what you're doing, just say "working with my horse." You're paying them to train your horse, and if in your opinion they're doing a crappy job then why do you care what they think if you're trying something different?

Also, have you tried working her in a round pen without a line? All of the same lunging for respect exercises, but without being attached to her. Or even with the lunge line that's longer than the pen radius. She can't lean on you if she has no where to go. 

I understand what you're saying about needing the chain to keep her from dragging you around while lunging. But its still just a band-aid. And if you never take it off she's never going to learn.

Hopefully the new trainer can get her working nicely without it. But are you going to be having lessons with the new trainer to learn how they correct her if she starts leaning? If not and you don't correct her properly she'll just learn that she can lean all over again and you'll be back to the chain.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

liltuktuk said:


> It's your horse. If they ask what you're doing, just say "working with my horse." You're paying them to train your horse, and if in your opinion they're doing a crappy job then why do you care what they think if you're trying something different?
> 
> Also, have you tried working her in a round pen without a line? All of the same lunging for respect exercises, but without being attached to her. Or even with the lunge line that's longer than the pen radius. She can't lean on you if she has no where to go.
> 
> ...


I understand. I just am trying to keep peace is all. I have round penned her prev, she works fine. But I no longer have access to one, and I need her to lunge without since they are very portable lol. The trainer we are taking her to is 2 hours and 20 mins away. We thought they were only 40 but then re mapped it and yeah. So I won't really be able to go see her until I go to pick her up. But that day they will spend time with her and I and show me how they correct any behaviors, etc. Give me a lesson on her and all that. I will get progress videos and have contact to them when I want to talk or ask anything. And even after she leaves, I can ask them anything I need to. They are very helpful. I want the chain to go away :/ Today I am trying lunging with out it with the line over the head and clipped to the other ring.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

That is exciting! Hope it goes very well for you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm not sure that threading the lunge rein over the poll without having it attached to a bit is going to work - its the squeezing action between bit and poll that causes the pressure you need to lower the head - if there's nothing to contain the pressure then the headcollar will just be pulled upwards 
At some point a horse has to learn to accept light pressure on its mouth so it understands how to go forwards against that pressure and not react to it by going upwards (rearing) so using side reins that are only tight enough to give light pressure can help the horse work through this on the lunge


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with Jay over using the halter and the control over her head.

I disagree with Yogi - the main control needs to be closest to her face so, halter under the bridle if you are using both. If it is on top it is far more likely to slip around. 

I dislike lungeing in a halter, you do not have the control. You really need a lunge caveson so you are controlling from the front of the nose, the horse had a harder time setting against it.


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## Bagheera (Apr 23, 2013)

Cherie is 100% right. Why risk your safety trying to make a crap horse into a nice horse. At 26, I have arthritis in both knees, tore my rotator cuff, been kicked, hospitalized, and have broken far too many bones. I earned these injuries working with other people's problem horses. Honestly, it wasn't worth all the pain, sweat, and tears. Yeah, I learned a lot and am a better rider for it. I'll have serious medical issues for the rest of my life though. I wish I'd widened up several years ago. There are just certain horses that are not worth my time. Rearers are one of them. I especially refuse to work with them because of the safety risks. So unless you are willing to shell out a ton of cash to get someone to fix this problem or are willing to put your self at serious personal risk, it is not worth your time.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Bagheera said:


> Cherie is 100% right. Why risk your safety trying to make a crap horse into a nice horse. At 26, I have arthritis in both knees, tore my rotator cuff, been kicked, hospitalized, and have broken far too many bones. I earned these injuries working with other people's problem horses. Honestly, it wasn't worth all the pain, sweat, and tears. Yeah, I learned a lot and am a better rider for it. I'll have serious medical issues for the rest of my life though. I wish I'd widened up several years ago. There are just certain horses that are not worth my time. Rearers are one of them. I especially refuse to work with them because of the safety risks. So unless you are willing to shell out a ton of cash to get someone to fix this problem or are willing to put your self at serious personal risk, it is not worth your time.


I do not have a "Crap," horse. There is risk with all horses. Even the old schoolmaster. I am sending her off to a different trainer Saturday. I am not wasting my time either. I have seen improvements.


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

Just to get a bit dearer about this .... how many times has she reared on you since you got her? From what you wrote it sounds like twice in hand, and never under saddle although she thought about rearing. Which isn't actually a lot of rearing.

How about in her previous home? Did she rear every time she was ridden? Or once or twice?

I am no expert, but I say this because my filly reared twice while I was starting her, yet I would no way call her a rearer. Once was on the ground, the first time I tried to put a bit in her mouth. (it was my fault, I cornered her in an attempt to get her to take the bit and she went up). I decided to start her in a bitless bridle and we had no more problems. The second time was a couple of weeks after her first backing. She was fine about the saddle and carrying a rider, but she didn't understand about moving forward. She would bend or go backwards. (Just like someone said in this thread, horses don't have a "go forward" button installed, they need to be taught the appropriate signals at first, and I didn't know that then). Eventually she reared out of frustration or confusion, I was careful not to pull back on her head, and when she came down she moved forwards and we had no further problems.

When she's doubtful about things her tendency was to go backwards, the next worse thing after rearing, and she scared the pants off me one day by backing blindly in a very inappropriate place . But I got her to go forwards, me sweating cold sweat, and she hasn't repeated. 

Definitely a horse like this needs someone to ride them forwards through their moments of doubt. I ride bitless. Have you considered this for your horse?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Sounds like a right choice. Best of luck to her and the trainer.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Bondre said:


> Just to get a bit dearer about this .... how many times has she reared on you since you got her? From what you wrote it sounds like twice in hand, and never under saddle although she thought about rearing. Which isn't actually a lot of rearing.
> 
> How about in her previous home? Did she rear every time she was ridden? Or once or twice?
> 
> ...


She has never reared with me on her, only considered it. She reared I want to say no more then 4-5 times since I have owned her (Since Jan) one of which was because I dropped the lead rope on accident and she stepped on it and jerked her face hard when she stepped on it. After correction, no more rearing on ground. She didn't rear all the time with the prev owner. I can't give a number. But it wasn't a lot. She rears when confused/frustrated. She typically only considers in when she has been moved onto something new to fast and doesn't understand the fundamentals that she should have had solid. So that creates the frusteration/fear. Were she is going, they start in a training bosal. I have considered this. I prefer to ride with a bit, but if she is better without then that is fine as well. I don't want to call her a rearer. Because she doesn't just do it to do it and all.. She does it when the human has put her in a situation she is not prepared for and is confused and frustrated.


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## Bagheera (Apr 23, 2013)

When I said crap I was referring to behavior. Bucking is crap behavior. Rearing is crap behavior. Kicking is crap behavior. You get the point. I should have clarified. I'm glad you've seen improvement. You have been warned by several people about the safety risks though. I was simply reiterating them. It is your choice to risk your personal safety with this horse. It is the new trainer's choice to risk their safety with this horse. 

Make sure you have documentation that you have fully disclosed this horse's behavioral issues to the trainer. If something happens, you do not want to be sued.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

I think there are several people that are possibly thinking this horse is much more problematic than she is. May I suggest that people re-read the first post and post #108? 

I think that we see the word "rearing" and tend to think the worst.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If the horse is rearing because its confused because its been pushed too hard - which it sounds like - it should not be such a hard fix
Good luck with the new trainer


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

I agree with NorthernMama and Jaydee. It seems you've had rather bad luck with your present trainer, but I'm sure the new one should be able to work your horse through her problem. You must be very impatient to get her started there! Let us know how she progresses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Bondre said:


> I agree with NorthernMama and Jaydee. It seems you've had rather bad luck with your present trainer, but I'm sure the new one should be able to work your horse through her problem. You must be very impatient to get her started there! Let us know how she progresses.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh yes. I am also very impatient. Counting down the days till we take her, we take her Saturday morning. I am going to miss her over the 6 weeks she is gone. But it is worth it. And in the mean time I can ride the already well established horses at the barn I have her at and am moving her from.


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hackamore (Mar 28, 2014)

You need a new trainer. It’s the trainers job to fix this behavior. That’s what you are paying for. 
As a trainer & colt starter myself I would never put a client on a horse that I would not get on myself, Never!. Additionally if I thought the horse was not safe in any way for a client it would be communicated directly to them. This is our job & responsibility as professionals. 

Find yourself a reputable trainer with experience dealing with behavior issues, ask them for references & go watch them work other horses before making a decision to use their service. Any reputable trainer will have references and be more than willing to show case there skill set for you to make a decision.

Best of luck.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

I took her up there on Saturday morning. I was at the barn to trailer her at 6:30 AM, got her on the trailer. Thank god she loads like a dream, because it was a stock trailer and she had about a 2 1/2 - 3 foot step up. It took us about 2 hours and 15 mins to get there. NO civilization for 60 miles.. That sucks when you have been sipping on sodas etc since 6 am, if you get what I am saying lol. When we got the the college, and to the correct barn. I walked around, looking at the horses their, their conditions, the stalls, the condition of them, and the cleanliness. It not only met but exceeded my standards! There is a huge indoor areana, round pens, outdoor areana, hot walkers, tack rooms, feed rooms, each stall has the horses info, feed info, supplement info, owner's contact info, and the trainer who is training that horse name on it. All the horses in the western training barn (the one I looked around at and the one she was going in) looked amazing. SOO shiny, well groomed, healthy. They had a stall set up already for her when she got there. Everybody was very very friendly. And answered all my questions. I was going to get a tour of all the horse facilities but it was freezing and that would have taken at least and hour to two hours. I feel very very good about her being there. Today is her first day of work, and I am looking forward to hearing how things go with her over the next 6 weeks.


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## 3ringburner (Feb 8, 2014)

If you have ruled out pain and everything else, Next time you ride take an egg or something like an egg. When she goes to rear, hit her with the egg right above the forelock (in between the ears) and the egg will crack, when this happens the horse will think that she is bleeding and she just "hurt" herself. usually they wont do it agian, hope it helped!


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## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

3ringburner said:


> If you have ruled out pain and everything else, Next time you ride take an egg or something like an egg. When she goes to rear, hit her with the egg right above the forelock (in between the ears) and the egg will crack, when this happens the horse will think that she is bleeding and she just "hurt" herself. usually they wont do it agian, hope it helped!


REALLY? I have never heard of that before! Does it really work?


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

It is a old time thing. It may work for some, but not her. And I would not be one to do it to clean egg of my tack and horse. Not to mention you would have to be a good rider with rearing to balance and do that. She is at a different trainers now. Please read last post by me..


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## 3ringburner (Feb 8, 2014)

CandyCanes said:


> REALLY? I have never heard of that before! Does it really work?


Ive seen it work with younger horses on ground(for colts and fillies) and under saddle, and OP i hope everything works out well at the trainers! and yes it would be a big mess but it works!


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## rhosroyalvelvet (Sep 5, 2013)

CandyCanes said:


> REALLY? I have never heard of that before! Does it really work?


I have CC. It is supposed to really work as they think they have hit their head and are bleeding.

Well thats what I've been told anyway...


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Horses do not understand the concept of blood. If a horse quits rearing after something like that, it would have also quit if it was hit over the head with a stick. Habitual rearers will NOT quit that easily. They rear because they have learned to rear and get out of going forward. 

The first time they reared, it was more than likely that they 'stalled out' and lost forward motion. Often times it is brought on or worsened by a rider holding it on a tight rein. The horse feels trapped and thinks it has no where to go but up. Then, when the rider does not require it to go forward, the habit is set. They will rear every time they do not want to go forward. This can progress to the point where they rear or flip to keep from getting ridden at all.

We consider rearing to be so dangerous that I will not EVER get on one and will not let anyone else get on a known rearer on my place. We do ALL of their re-training in long lines. They will all rear in driving lines and they give you the opportunity to correct them harshly when they do. You can get after them more harshly and still stay safe yourself. It is the only way I will ever correct one. I knew someone that was killed when his horse unintentionally fell over on him. The saddle horn crushed his chest and put a rib through his heart.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

3ringburner said:


> If you have ruled out pain and everything else, Next time you ride take an egg or something like an egg. When she goes to rear, hit her with the egg right above the forelock (in between the ears) and the egg will crack, when this happens the horse will think that she is bleeding and she just "hurt" herself. usually they wont do it agian, hope it helped!


Will we EVER stop hearing about this? I think that there should be a requirement that anyone who wants to post this "solution" has to have actual hands-on experience, preferably with video support and able to demonstrate that it works. <sigh>


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

^^^^
And if it did work, a stick would have done the same thing without the mess.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

3ringburner said:


> If you have ruled out pain and everything else, Next time you ride take an egg or something like an egg. When she goes to rear, hit her with the egg right above the forelock (in between the ears) and the egg will crack, when this happens the horse will think that she is bleeding and she just "hurt" herself. usually they wont do it agian, hope it helped!


As a youngster I was totally fearless and would ride anything going.

We had a pretty 14 hand pony come for re training, she was a rearer. Knew exactly what she was doing. 
Someone came up with the egg idea. Great. 
Have you ever tried riding with an egg in your hand waiting for a pony to rear? You may break at least a dozen before you have one intact in your hand when the pony does stand up. 
Of course when it goes up you need to go well forward or have the risk of unbalancing so they go over. 
Try getting a hand above their head and smashing it down when it is vertical. 

I have heard it many times yet never seen it done! 

Just a waste of perfectly good eggs leading to a mother furious at the state of my jodhpurs!


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I did smash an egg on a rearing horse's head once. Just because I was young and heard it would work. That's the only time I've seen it done! lol

The result was the horse didn't rear with me at all after that, but still would with others. Big deal. I don't have any use for a one-person horse. I never bothered with that trick again.

Now, the only thing I try is the long-lining that Cherie describes. And of the horses I deal with, only myself and one other rider are the first to get back on.

I did see a young woman die from a horse going back over on her. Horrid. She was so sure of the "bond" she had with the horse. Of course, that wasn't the popular term 35 years ago. But she was sure he only liked her and would never hurt her.

I was there when her parents came to the farm after her funeral. I remember her mother looking at our 6'2" boss after he told them we couldn't stop her (it *was *the girl's personal horse) and the mom asked, "You couldn't stop her?" The pain in that woman's eyes. Horrid.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

My Father worked at a Livery Stable as a child (yes, in the 1930's there were Livery Stables). The owner was retired Cavalry (as in US Mounted Cavalry). He had several horses that were rented out for riding and driving. One horse my Father recalled was a Throroughbred ex race horse.. big black horse.. that they called "Black Flyer." He would rear.. way up.. and most were afraid to get on him. 

Well, the Cavalry guy (Sergeant?) got on this horse and when the horse went up he hit him between the ears with a (weighted) "black jack." The horse went down.. to his _knees_ burying his nose in the sand.. and stayed here.. blood running out of his nostrils.. shaking.. and finally raising and shaking his head. I guess the object was kill or cure the horse and what happened was closer to the former with none of the latter... 

Regardless.. Black Flyer still would rear after this (hard to believe he LIVED) and the rule when riding him was NEVER hold him back or straight up he would go. 

My Grandfather would go to that stable (where my Father boarded his pony in swap for work cleaning stalls) and ask for "Black Flyer" and ride the horse out. He was a good rider and had some understanding of horses and they got on well.. but the horse was dangerous. Today the horse would be put down.. before he killed someone and the stable was sued. 

Life was (apparently) cheaper in the depression and livery stables were on the way out and lawsuites were uncommon. My how things have changed.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

^^ Wow, that's pretty scary Elana. It sure was a different world then. The poor horse. It should have been put down. I'm sure it was never the same after that.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Horse lived for years NorthernMama. My Grandfather rode him and almost bought him. 
OFF TOPIC: 
The livery stable went out of business as cars became more main stream. the various livery owners got very desperate and started to do things to other livery owners to put them out of business. Popular in the day was poisoning the horses of your competitors. That is what happened to the horses at this stable. All of a sudden the horses lost bowel function.. and they did not act like colic. Maybe Strychnine poisoning? My Dad told how they had to remove the manure from the horses manually... and that most of the horses died. The vet of those days (b4 antibiotics) had no idea the issue. My Father's pony was moved to his cousin's farm. A horse my Father rode at the stable (Jim Dandy) was stricken and died. I do not know if Black Flyer was as well. A Steel dust Standardbred named Eileen Rose also died. 

Things were different in the 1930's. Some even predicted the demise of the horse altogether... but of course that did not happen. Veterinary schools curtailed and ceased to fund equine programs because the car was taking over. 

Both horses and the general populace gained some things and loss some things with the demise of the horse as a primary form of transportation.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I long lined a horse that was known to rear if she couldn't get her own way. The paddock we were in shared the water tank with the next paddock. As she approached the horses at the tank she decided she wanted to stay there. When I urged her on she went straight up. I pulled her over on her side and kept her down and waited for the big sigh. She never reared again with or without a rider. What had worked with her in the past had suddenly gone horribly wrong and she must have decided she didn't want a repeat of that.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

3ringburner said:


> If you have ruled out pain and everything else, Next time you ride take an egg or something like an egg. When she goes to rear, hit her with the egg right above the forelock (in between the ears) and the egg will crack, when this happens the horse will think that she is bleeding and she just "hurt" herself. usually they wont do it agian, hope it helped!



Complete nonsense. Hilarious to watch, I will add, bit a silly backyard trainer tactic.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Im glad my horse doesn't rear just because. I know the reasons every time, and 99.9% of them were the prev trainer moved her to fast and she didn't have the fundamentals for what she learned prev let alone the new concept. So she was confused, unprepared, and frusterated. The trainer has said she's been a doll so far. No rearing. They have lunged, sacked out with pool noodles and the saddle and pad, and today they are saddling her. Then Friday starts her riding.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Years ago I bought a yearling filly and she would always rear when turned out and playing, just did it for fun. She was well behaved when I would do ground work and never offered to rear then but later when I started to ride her I had in mind that she could rear with me so I was always watching for something like that and one day she did make a half rear and I immediately hit her on the top of the head with my hand (I'm sure it hurt me more than it hurt her) and yelled and hollered at her and she came back to ground and never attempted to do it again. I guess the secret was to catch her and stop it the first time it happened.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Just an update for everybody! She started getting ridden last Thursday (on the lunge). NO PROBLEMS AT ALL ANYWHERE! You hear that? NONE. No rearing, no offering to rear, nothing. They have ridden her on the lunge at a walk, trot, and canter, but she is built to trot and not canter, so her canter is not so great. They rode her yesterday at a walk off the lunge line. Still no problems. They sent videos. And they've said she has been a doll to work with. But they did inform me she is a very sensitive horse and if she needs punished, and she needs hit, do it one time and then leave her be or she is constantly afraid. Verbal also works with her like "stop" "cut it pit" "knock it off" etc. And with that news I will be bringing her home to my place vs to the trainers that I had ll the problems at. So I am in total control of what happens. She comes home May 31


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Why on earth does she need to be hit?


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Cherie said:


> Why on earth does she need to be hit?


No no. I should have explained. They don't hit them there. They meant if a situation occurred where she getting slapped on the bum or something happened (which has not happened there) and I felt a swift slap was necessary to do it one time and then leave her be. They were trying to explain that she is very sensitive and that IF she needs to be whacked over something absolutely necessary to do it one time and then leave her be. But that she is a horse that needs reassurance like being talked to and rubbed and gently encouraged vs harsh treatment (prev trainer). Like you can't get up her butt like you can some horses, she can't handle it. Too sensitive.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It's all sounding very positive. She seems to be the sort of horse that takes longer to absorb things but over reacts/panics when she's put under too much pressure if she isn't 110% sure of what's being asked of her
I am a great believer in giving a horse one good whack if it really needs it and then moving on - nagging at horses all the time just makes them edgy and tense


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

jaydee said:


> It's all sounding very positive. She seems to be the sort of horse that takes longer to absorb things but over reacts/panics when she's put under too much pressure if she isn't 110% sure of what's being asked of her
> I am a great believer in giving a horse one good whack if it really needs it and then moving on - nagging at horses all the time just makes them edgy and tense


I agree about the kind of horse she is. I also believe in giving a horse a good whack if it really needs it and moving on. Nagging them does just as you said. And I don't believe and beating the bloody pulp out of them and letting your temper take over. Temper has no place in training.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

Larissa said:


> I agree about the kind of horse she is. I also believe in giving a horse a good whack if it really needs it and moving on. Nagging them does just as you said. And I don't believe and beating the bloody pulp out of them and letting your temper take over. Temper has no place in training.


OP, that horse in my avatar, April, is kind of like your horse, sensitive. I find that giving her more work is the best way to teach her. If she balks, we circle. If she moves in ties, we back up. If she refused to load the trailer, we lunge at the ramp until she just trots herself in, usually after two turns. 

There is an upside to sensitive, though. She is very responsive and wants to please me, and always takes good care of me. 

Once when we were horse packing, my other two horses got loose and started heading the 20 miles back to the trailer at a swift trot. My horse just stood beside me, watching them go. She only had a halter and rope on, but I led her to a stump, hopped on her back, and started in pursuit of the others. 

We rode bareback in a halter and lead for about 5 miles, at a t/c/g the whole time. It was on an extremely steep & rough trail called Devil's Peak, and a couple of times I almost slipped off, but she slowed and once even turned her head so I could balance off of her neck to stay on. She never once panicked, even though it was her herd leaving us. She kept me calm and focused in the crisis.

We caught up with the other horses, who also had halters and leads. The horse right in front of us finally stepped on her lead rope and had to stop. April stopped on a dime, I slid off, and caught the other horse while she waited calmly. At that point, it was over because I had 2/3, so the third just followed us back. 

I look back on that day and think about how amazing she was. It was one of the most exhilarating rides of my life, bareback full bore up steep hills and over rocks, just hanging on to her scanty little mane for dear life! But she was taking care of me the entire time.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Foxtail Ranch said:


> OP, that horse in my avatar, April, is kind of like your horse, sensitive. I find that giving her more work is the best way to teach her. If she balks, we circle. If she moves in ties, we back up. If she refused to load the trailer, we lunge at the ramp until she just trots herself in, usually after two turns.
> 
> There is an upside to sensitive, though. She is very responsive and wants to please me, and always takes good care of me.
> 
> ...


I really enjoyed reading this! I have never had a sensitive horse like mine. So I kind of have to think a second before taking action if I am not 100% sure on what to do. I would rather be late on response then make it worse. If I have no other answer for a behavior thrown at me, I just lunge, lunge, lunge, drive, drive, drive, back on ground.. etc. Just a ton of ground work. Hard and strenuous groundwork. Your mare is also so so beautiful!


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Just another update to all who followed this thread and wondered what has changed. She is now walking, trotting, and cantering in a big outdoor arena, along with a indoor. She will do all either on the rail, or in a circle. Her canter transitions were pretty bad a few weeks ago and she was balls to the wall when she cantered speed wise. She has now got herself slowed down and more collected and her transitions are great. Still no rearing at all. I am so glad I held some hope and sent her to the college. I go pick her up Friday


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

Very pleased to hear the good news about your mare's progress. I hope all goes smoothly for you when you take her home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Thank you! I do as well. They really have only had good things to say about her. They sent numerous videos. I am very pleased. I will be happy to have her home


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

Hurray! I am so glad for you and your mare!

One thing I have noticed with my girl, and it may not apply to yours, but I will share with you anyway: she does best when I ride her often, even if it is only for 10 minutes. This time of year, I ride her a couple of miles almost every day , and she is at her best. 

Stay on top of her training and good luck!


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

I think that is a good idea for my mare as well! With her being a greenie, I am planning on riding her everyday. No days off. I feel she will progress the fastest that way and not get "sticky."


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

NorthernMama said:


> Will we EVER stop hearing about this? I think that there should be a requirement that anyone who wants to post this "solution" has to have actual hands-on experience, preferably with video support and able to demonstrate that it works. <sigh>




I've done it, it works. And they didn't have video cameras back when I did it, only 8mm. And wasn't wasted on stupid horses either. Too bulky and no one wanted to watch idiocy.

Have used bottle in bag too, which helps with glass.

You can smack with flat of hand, board, pop bottle, or what have you.

Timing like so much is everything. And this is best used where horse is just beginning to use coming up as a way to get out of working. If bringing hands and weight forwards isn't working, the rears are mainly bringing weight to hinds and the front end is getting light, then this is perfect method to stop it. Horse is befuddled, and mind is off "I don't want to" and more on okay let's listen.

For a confirmed rearer, and by that I mean one that is a horse that will throw itself on over, you might or might not get this to work. Depends greatly on rider's skill though, and being able to fling yourself clear if fool goes on over too.

Horses do things all the time to get out of work, and that is exactly why they do it. They are not stupid, and they pull stunts like rearing to not work.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

She has been home for a week today. We have been riding and doing groundwork daily. No problems. I am so happy with her.


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

So pleased to hear this. Now you can start to enjoy your horse!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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