# Quick confo. question



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

He's a mess. He's more base narrow in the hind and turned out than he is badly cowhocked, but he's also sickle-hocked, camped-out, steep-crouped, roach-backed, downhill, and upright-pasterned. Not an animal likely to stay sound.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

He's cute but justdoesnt look right. And his tail looks set wayyyyy too far down.
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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

The thing that bothers me are his legs- they aren't.... right. Toed out, too close in the back...


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

Bubba, could you explain the roach back you mention to me? I think I see the others. (trying to learn) Could the camped out appearance be because he seems to be leaning forward hoping for a treat, or do you think it's probably typical for him?


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Everything what Bubba said, except I can't see the roachback, but she can so I won't disagree. I can't even detect a hunter bump.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

It's not severe, and I could possibly be convinced it's the photo, but combined with the stance and downhillness, I do think I'm seeing some undesirable convex curvature of the spine there.

I do imagine he always stands camped out, judging by his hind limb and back construction.


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## justjump (Jan 18, 2011)

Thanks so much everyone!! The only thing I could see was the hocks... I'm clueless when it comes to conformation!
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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

bubba13 said:


> Not an animal likely to stay sound.


I think there's a fair chance he's base narrow behind & bit 'roachy' *because* he isn't sound. I think horses can adopt that posture(so not nec 'confo') to protect or compensate for weak/sore areas, such as sacro for eg.

What sort of probs can you guys foresee due to the low tail/steep croup? I'm no confo expert in the least, but I had thought that didn't cause any issue?


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Loosie it has to do with the amount of power that the horse can easily generate from behind. That tail is WAY too low and croup too steep for any real engagement which sadly will be necessary to decrease the impact of his downhill build and upright pasterns.

Although your theory about posture vs structure does make sense, my horses both develop a rather similar stance when they are extremely uncomfortable. I have only witnessed it a couple of times but they DO do it. HOWEVER, this then leads us to infer that the horse must be uncomfortable or in pain, and therefore probably not sound. In the case of my horses, it was in the middle of nature's fury - and my filly's first storm. My gelding came from warmer climates and so the cold often brings this stance. It is more often pain causing such a 'tucked' appearance, like the horse has tipped his hips underneath him to stretch out (or relax) sore muscles. I would hazard a guess that this horse is either sore in the back or hindquarter, or tends towards a low-grade colic.


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## justjump (Jan 18, 2011)

blue eyed pony said:


> Loosie it has to do with the amount of power that the horse can easily generate from behind. That tail is WAY too low and croup too steep for any real engagement which sadly will be necessary to decrease the impact of his downhill build and upright pasterns.
> 
> Although your theory about posture vs structure does make sense, my horses both develop a rather similar stance when they are extremely uncomfortable. I have only witnessed it a couple of times but they DO do it. HOWEVER, this then leads us to infer that the horse must be uncomfortable or in pain, and therefore probably not sound. In the case of my horses, it was in the middle of nature's fury - and my filly's first storm. My gelding came from warmer climates and so the cold often brings this stance. It is more often pain causing such a 'tucked' appearance, like the horse has tipped his hips underneath him to stretch out (or relax) sore muscles. I would hazard a guess that this horse is either sore in the back or hindquarter, or tends towards a low-grade colic.



The unsoundness is really connecting dots considering when I (and other people who saw his video) evaluated his movement for the interested buyer, his back right leg did not look right at all. He had a really nice flat front movement but as he was loping and jogging he looked seriously uncomfortable. I'll see if I can post the video!
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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Yep if they LOOK uncomfortable and it's affecting their posture then it's often a pretty significant discomfort.

Nobody likes to hear that their (or their friend's) horse is unsound but in this case all the facts seem to be pointing in that direction especially with you saying he seems uncomfortable when he's moving. It MAY be something as simple as muscle pain or that he has a rib or a vertebra out of place, or it may be something sinister. Your friend may want to have him seen by a good equine specialist vet.


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## justjump (Jan 18, 2011)

blue eyed pony said:


> Yep if they LOOK uncomfortable and it's affecting their posture then it's often a pretty significant discomfort.
> 
> Nobody likes to hear that their (or their friend's) horse is unsound but in this case all the facts seem to be pointing in that direction especially with you saying he seems uncomfortable when he's moving. It MAY be something as simple as muscle pain or that he has a rib or a vertebra out of place, or it may be something sinister. Your friend may want to have him seen by a good equine specialist vet.


I think she's decided not to even bother getting a vet check since multiple people have said the same things about him. If he wasn't so funky in his rear end he'd be super cute!!
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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

A vet may be able to solve the problem. Or a good equine chiro. I consider it irresponsible for a horse not to get help when it's so clearly in pain. Even if it's just to find out that there's nothing that can be done, because sometimes knowing that is the most powerful thing of all. It allows us to decide whether to retire the horse, or to dose it up on painkillers so that it can continue living a productive life.

My mother, after owning her horse for a year, finally got a lameness exam done on him because he'd been sore on and off for a long time even before she took him on. Vet doesn't think anything can be done. But sometimes, things CAN be done. Sore muscles can be released and made comfortable, or arthritic joints can be injected. Hooves can be shod or improved.

I must ask you - IS he uncomfortable in the pasture or just under saddle? Because if he's unhappy even in the pasture, there's quality of life to consider. It's a bit selfish of your friend to not see a vet because "oh a few people have said that now". In fact I would be inclined to go the opposite, get a vet BECAUSE a few people said he looked off. That might be just me though?


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## justjump (Jan 18, 2011)

blue eyed pony said:


> A vet may be able to solve the problem. Or a good equine chiro. I consider it irresponsible for a horse not to get help when it's so clearly in pain. Even if it's just to find out that there's nothing that can be done, because sometimes knowing that is the most powerful thing of all. It allows us to decide whether to retire the horse, or to dose it up on painkillers so that it can continue living a productive life.
> 
> My mother, after owning her horse for a year, finally got a lameness exam done on him because he'd been sore on and off for a long time even before she took him on. Vet doesn't think anything can be done. But sometimes, things CAN be done. Sore muscles can be released and made comfortable, or arthritic joints can be injected. Hooves can be shod or improved.
> 
> I must ask you - IS he uncomfortable in the pasture or just under saddle? Because if he's unhappy even in the pasture, there's quality of life to consider. It's a bit selfish of your friend to not see a vet because "oh a few people have said that now". In fact I would be inclined to go the opposite, get a vet BECAUSE a few people said he looked off. That might be just me though?


She was talking about a vet check that comes with buying a horse. She means if there's something clearly wrong, she's not going so spend the money she could be spending on a healthy and sound horse, on an unsound one. I think she's going to tell the owners about what has been said and recommend the horse be seen by a vet before anyone else tries to buy him.
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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Thanx blue eye, yeah, tailset prob clear... When you explained it! 
Don't get why you say although about my other comment tho, as you appear to then agree?
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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

blue eyed pony said:


> It's a bit selfish of your friend to not see a vet because "oh a few people have said that now". In fact I would be inclined to go the opposite, get a vet BECAUSE a few people said he looked off. That might be just me though?


Blue eyes you missed the part that said op's friend was considering buying the horse, it's not hers.
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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

Can someone explain to me what a roach back is, exactly, and what it causes? I see that something's wrong with his back, but I'm really curious as to the details...


Also, could you post a video or another picture so that I can see more clearly what's going on? I'd love it if you could, I'm trying to learn more about conformation. Thank you.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Roach back is abnormal convex curvature of the spine....sort of the opposite of a swayback.




























It causes an odd stance in more severe cases, which leads to secondary soundness issues, and even in milder circumstances it can lead to back pain.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

I see. Thank you!


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

loosie said:


> Blue eyes you missed the part that said op's friend was considering buying the horse, it's not hers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


oh whoops! I need to learn to read obviously lol


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