# Kicking at feeding time



## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

You did the right thing. You just need to be consistent. Whip his butt into next week if he even lifts a foot in your direction. You shouldn't have to do it more than once or twice to get the message across.


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## RitzieAnn (Dec 22, 2010)

Also, I'm not so sure this is about food. He gets hissy when I tell him to go away too. It's not really possible to have a whip at all times, though I did have to grab it this morning & pelt him, because as soon as he went "out" and I came into the stall, he tried kicking.

I don't even force or threaten them out of the stall. I tell them "out" and I point, then I must do that as many times as necessary while standing in the doorway waiting to come in.

I'm really worried that he will think kicking is fun, or a good idea when hes frustrated, and then try to do it while he is hitched.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Jessabel said:


> You did the right thing. You just need to be consistent. Whip his butt into next week if he even lifts a foot in your direction. You shouldn't have to do it more than once or twice to get the message across.


Exactly. And really get after him - if he gives you a stink eye while you are in his stall, you chase him until he thinks you are going to kill him, feed his intestines to the dogs, and stake his hide out on the lawn. 

Him kicking out at you is him showing you that he doesn't believe you are the leader of the herd, and that maybe he should be the leader instead. You have to get that right out of his head. While you shouldn't beat him senselessly, remember that you are tiny compared to him, so a good smack from a whip is nothing compared to what his momma could dish out should he kick out at her.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Ditto the other posters -you're going to have to "light him up", to coin a favorite family phrase that I even used to use on my son - lol lol lol

Is he gelded? If he is, it sounds like he might be coming into his own as a disrespectful bully. I have one of those - got him when he was 2-1/2, he is now 18-1/2 years and he's still a snot face:shock:

Along with blaming his generally bad attitude on his blood line, he also has environmental allergies and food intolerances.

I alleviated the food intolerance and he gets herbs to control his allergies; those things have helped him immensely but not 100%.

You will most likely always have to carry a whippin' stick with you as I'm sure your Fella is plenty smart enough to know when you're not and will pick that time to really misbehave and P**s you off

You've done everything right, IMO, just need to keep doing what you are and plan on never having an end in sight - lol lol

The only reason I'm chuckling is because I have one like yours and if I don't laugh, he'd've been wearing a beautiful lead earring years ago. His saving grace is that he is my best down and dirty trail horse, bar none. The more dangerous the trail, the more he bears down and is very cautious. You wouldn't believe the tight places his lanky 16.1H self can gracefully get out of when he want to


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

RitzieAnn said:


> Also, I'm not so sure this is about food. He gets hissy when I tell him to go away too. *It's not really possible to have a whip at all times*, though I did have to grab it this morning & pelt him, because as soon as he went "out" and I came into the stall, he tried kicking.
> 
> I don't even force or threaten them out of the stall. I tell them "out" and I point, then I must do that as many times as necessary while standing in the doorway waiting to come in.
> 
> ...


To the bolded, why not? It is fairly easy to grab and carry a whip when you are going to be interacting with a horse. It isn't as though you don't know you are going to be in proximity to the horse. Getting in the habit of carrying one, and getting him into the habit of expecting you will have one with you, is easier than you think. The fact that it isn't *just* about food makes this even more important.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

themacpack said:


> To the bolded, why not? It is fairly easy to grab and carry a whip when you are going to be interacting with a horse. It isn't as though you don't know you are going to be in proximity to the horse. Getting in the habit of carrying one, and getting him into the habit of expecting you will have one with you, is easier than you think. The fact that it isn't *just* about food makes this even more important.


Ditto that.

I got in the habit of carrying the buggy whip, a/k/a The Long Arm Of The Law, down to the paddock gate every morning to turn the horses out.

I use it as a walking stick, then it's is really easy to tuck it under my arm with most of the whip behind me.

Every so often my horse in question will try to "gently" push through me to get into the main pasture.

He's is sneaky - it's not a big bully of rush and bowl me over (although he could), it's a "Gee Mom, I didn't really mean that, I just want to get out and start my grazing day".

There are no "Gee Mom's" in my world. Mind your manners or that buggy whip tucked under my arm is going to take a step backward and poke you hard in the chest.

Similar to what the Alpha horse would do, except there won't be any bite marks and I can't possibly hurt that horse as much as another horse would

I have gotten so used to carrying the buggy whip that it comes off the hook as soon as I start walking toward the paddock - it has become a part of my hand & arm for those five minutes.

I know "The Intimidator" wishes every day I would forget it, just once. That's not his papered name but it should have been:lol:


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

walkinthewalk said:


> Ditto that.
> 
> I got in the habit of carrying the buggy whip, a/k/a The Long Arm Of The Law, down to the paddock gate every morning to turn the horses out.


I did a double-take bc "Long Arm of the Law" is the registered name of my 16'3hh gelding (left). ha, ha
I don't know why you aren't halter training and leading him to and from the stall with numerous halts and backups. I do it with my geldings ALL OF THE TIME, and nobody rushes me.
Frankly, I see a potential accident with this 3yo, and you'll be the injured party. NOBODY bites or kicks me during feeding time. I can take away feed from my horses, my dogs, and my cats bc I am the boss. You have to establish leadership ALL OF THE TIME with your horses.
IMO, you should lead and tie him up to eat every time, and start a better feeding time habit.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Let's see. You have an armful of hay when you open the stall door. He thinks you're bringing him hay but you tell him he can't have it. He doesn't understand this. To him he could starve so he does what he has to in order to not starve, he kicks at you. Next time you let them out don't have the hay with you. You are giving mixed messages and that is what he is reacting to. You say he's an "in your pocket" kind of horse. Again, inconsistent. You want respect yet allow him to be disrespectful. He's young and will test you because that's what horses do. If when you enter his stall at feeding time and he threatens to kick, take the feed and leave. Wait a few minutes and enter again. Horses need 3 or 4 tries to figure out that what he's doing results in no feed. While trying to find the right answer he may even move to the far corner. That's a good time to enter the stall if he does, but watch him closely.


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## RitzieAnn (Dec 22, 2010)

I don't need to lead him anywhere. It's a stall with 2 doors. One into the barn, which I use, and one that is tied wide open that goes outside. I turn my goat out with the horses every day so they get fed outside. He doesn't charge me, and he is otherwise very mild natured. He just has tantrums when I tell him to go away.

I taught him as a baby to stand tied out. I put a lot of work into him on the ground. I think this is more of him saying "screw you for making me leave! I hate you now"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RitzieAnn (Dec 22, 2010)

And yes, he was trodden approx 4/5months old when they fixed his hernia.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

RitzieAnn said:


> I don't need to lead him anywhere. It's a stall with 2 doors. One into the barn, which I use, and one that is tied wide open that goes outside. I turn my goat out with the horses every day so they get fed outside. He doesn't charge me, and he is otherwise very mild natured. He just has tantrums when I tell him to go away.
> 
> I taught him as a baby to stand tied out. I put a lot of work into him on the ground. I think this is more of him saying "screw you for making me leave! I hate you now"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're right. He's telling you "Screw you!" He's not saying that he hates you. If he was to give that attitude to the lead horse, he would get a double barrel kick that sends him across the pasture. 

Send him out and then close the outside gate before you bring the hay in, at least until you can get this fixed. What I would do is take the hay outside. Also take a whip with. Put the hay down and stand between the hay and the horses. Any time the horse approaches you, send them off. Only when they stand and wait calmly, move away from the hay. Repeat for a few days or more if needed, until they stand back on their own.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

RitzieAnn said:


> I don't need to lead him anywhere. It's a stall with 2 doors. One into the barn, which I use, and one that is tied wide open that goes outside. I turn my goat out with the horses every day so they get fed outside. He doesn't charge me, and he is otherwise very mild natured. He just has tantrums when I tell him to go away.
> 
> I taught him as a baby to stand tied out. I put a lot of work into him on the ground. I think this is more of him saying "screw you for making me leave! I hate you now"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The point of that suggestion was not about needing to lead him - it was about taking control of the entering/leaving of the area. 
You are starting to minimize/excuse his behavior "he doesn't charge me", "he is otherwise mild natured" "he just has tantrums" -- and then using "I hate you now" -- all indicative of your mindset about this horse and none of which indicates to me that you are willing to step it up and do what is necessary to correct the problem long-term :?


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## RitzieAnn (Dec 22, 2010)

Lucky for me, I've never had to deal with a BS kicker. But you better believe that when he kicked me, I grabbed that lunge whip & and got a good pelt in there before he took off. Then I did block him from the hay. I didn't have time to battle it out with him though because I was running late for work. (That was a few months ago) he doesn't do this every day. Just sometimes & its becoming more frequent. I have no problems putting all my energy into a good blow when he tries Crap like that. I know & understand that horses are fight or flight, and I will fight.

I suppose people think of in-your-pocket in different ways. He doesn't try to step/walk on me. He doesn't bite. He doesn't try to take me for walks. He just wants to be near me. Walk with me. Watch what I'm doing, etc.
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## Critter sitter (Jun 2, 2012)

just be *consistent* . I would always have a whip or switch when sending him out and make him stay out till your ready.
My daughters mare will "TRY" us at times and I always have a lead rope whip or switch to move her when she does.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Corporal said:


> I did a double-take bc "Long Arm of the Law" is the registered name of my 16'3hh gelding (left).


How funny - I am sorry. I have done that when someone's talked about their horse that has the same name as mine

Ritzie, your fella is probably going to always be a pushy horse - always "trying" you to see what he can get away with. That doesn't mean he can't be an in your pocket horse - it just means that he will be a Jekyll-Hyde type of Fella and you will always have to be on the alert with him.

For example, my "Intimidator", started down the barn aisle one day, headed out the other door to freedom. I said "Rusty whoa" and he whoaed:shock: I said "Rusty back up" and he wouldn't back up - lol. 

By that time I was at his butt, (the aisle is only a 4' wide escape aisle), I couldn't get to his head, so I gave him a light tap on his butt and said "Rusty, back up for a cookie". Soon as I said "cookie", I saw his ears flick and darned if he didn't put it in reverse and back down the aisle until his head was even with me.

I gave him a cookie, backed him the rest of the way into his own stall (that also has a door to the paddock), gave him another cookie for being so wonderful, and I STILL carried the buggy whip down to the paddock gate because I don't trust him to not put on his Dr. Jekyll mask at a moment's notice:lol:

To reiterate, once I got his environmental and food allergies under control, he became a lot better horse but he is still A.D.D. and I blame it on his blood line. He has recieved more discipline from me than all of my Keeper horses in my entire life. Probably more than half the Widomakers I used to re-school.

He also has never tried to bite, buck or rear. His "things" are he can cow kick better than any cow you've ever seen, slice my face like a meat grinder with that tail "because there might be a fly around", and if he's confused or irritated he used to just flat out lie down like a camel in the middle of being ridden:shock::shock: He hasn't done that for years but I never forget that he's done it, therefore is capable again - lol

He's never tried to step on me on purpose either, which is a big surprise. He is sneaky intelligent and your Fella probably is, as well.

You're just going to have to watch him and always be two steps ahead - especially on the days you might be running late for work because those are the days we tend to let our guard down and these kinds of horses thrive on seizing those kinds of moments

The only thing that saves me is that I've had this horse 16+ years and "watching" him is now an old habit. My other three don't even get on conniving scale this Guy does. They are all Saints compared to him when he goes into action; which isn't every day, nor even every week now that he's older - lol lol

One thing is for sure, he will probably always need constant discipline. Rusty is a horse that "given the inch, he will take FIVE miles". While I cut him some breaks, he doesn't get near as much "that's ok" as the other three because he will seize the moment much sooner than later.

Once again I've written a book and didn't mean to. I'm just trying to give you some insight and remind you to keep those eyes in the back of your head on high alert when you're around him


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Food to a horse is like hundred dollar bills...some people might try to kick you and snatch a few if they see ya carrying a arm full. 

I place a rubber tub in the middle of the pen w a huge scoop of yummy good feed in it. Training whip in hand - I guard it w my life. If they are really aggressive, it can be _hard_ not chicken (for me, at least)..ya have to stand your ground. When they finally stand a few feet away nice and polite like - let them have the yummies.


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## Ktibb (Mar 24, 2010)

Lots of good advice given already. I am very much in agreement with Missy May on the guarding a tub of goodies. I was caring for a small herd (9 total) on a few acres with no pens to separate to feed and several of the horses had special meds/supplements they were to get daily in buckets. 

First I had to figure out their pecking order, and then establish myself as alpha. I used the guarding the goodie bucket method an after that was able to feed everyone their buckets without a hitch, I just followed the pecking order as i passed out the buckets and everyone got used to waiting their turn.

Also, be aware of his facial expressions & body language. You can *usually* tell if a horse is going to kick. If it were me I'd chase him off in a big way if he so much as gave a dirty look at this point in the game.
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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

OP - You're attributing him human feelings, and that is going to lead to you getting hurt. He is not acting out like a human teenager, stamping his feet and saying "I hate you Mom, you don't let me do ANYTHING fun!" and then flouncing away to sulk. He is saying very clearly to you: "I don't think you're the boss of me." Completely different, and definitely far more dangerous. Respect among horses is not earned by giving treats or letting a less dominant horse snuggle in for cuddles. The lead mare earns it by kicking the daylights out of any horse that steps out of line, and making sure they have a healthy respect for the lead mare's heels.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> Let's see. You have an armful of hay when you open the stall door. He thinks you're bringing him hay but you tell him he can't have it. He doesn't understand this. To him he could starve so he does what he has to in order to not starve, he kicks at you. Next time you let them out don't have the hay with you. You are giving mixed messages and that is what he is reacting to. You say he's an "in your pocket" kind of horse. Again, inconsistent. You want respect yet allow him to be disrespectful. He's young and will test you because that's what horses do. If when you enter his stall at feeding time and he threatens to kick, take the feed and leave. Wait a few minutes and enter again. Horses need 3 or 4 tries to figure out that what he's doing results in no feed. While trying to find the right answer he may even move to the far corner. That's a good time to enter the stall if he does, but watch him closely.


What a load of rubbish!

I do not care if a horse *is* starving it has absolutely no right to snatch or grab at food just because someone is near with some. That would be bad enough but to turn and kick is a far greater sin and I certainly agree that he needs to have the fear of humans put into him with a long whip.


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