# Mare can't handle the bit in her mouth!



## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

A thin twisted bit? That is NOT a nice bit. What have you already tried? Have you considered this is a rider problem, not a horse problem? That's what it sounds like to me. Would love to see a video.


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## HorseGirlie (Mar 27, 2012)

Unfortunately I don't have any videos. I have tried, heavy and lightweight bits, snaffles, curbed, and twisted. It's not me, even when others ride her, she does the same thing. When I rode her before we got her it was the first time in a month, she might have just been showing off and now we see the real stuff.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

have you tried a happy mouth ? they tend to be not too thick and pretty light. i would also have a professional look at her teeth.

does she have problems when she is being ridden or just before ? or both ?


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## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

Our TWH mare is like this.. I think, her woolf teeth need pulled, but I ride her in a halter, and she does fine with that, so I don't need the bit really.. But, I did get her used to it, to where she quit doing that tongue thing with the bit, and she listens to it more.

A Twisted wire snaffle Isn't a "Mean" bit, More like, then next step up from a smooth mouth Snaffle.. I wouldn't go putting a Shanked bit in her mouth, but maybe something with a Straight mouth piece, rather than a broken one.. Our mare Hates a broken mouth piece.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

HorseGirlie said:


> So we adopted this 12 y/o mare from our local rescue (to read her story check out my horse, Gracelyn). When I rode her before we adopted her she was fine with the bit in her mouth, but since we brought her home she hates the bit. She throws her head when trying to put the bridle on ...


Well, what bit did she have on when you tried her out? Does she have a problem with that same bit?

And what are YOU doing when trying to bridle her?

Do you let the bit bang on her teeth when you put the bridle on or take it off?

Have you taught her to drop her head when you ask? (with or without a halter)

How are her ground manners otherwise? Does she ever rub her head on you? Does she ever pull you around on the leadrope? Does she crowd your space?

Throwing her head while bridling can be associated with pain and she's "lashing out" from it, but most certainly it is a training issue. 



HorseGirlie said:


> ...and once on, she puts the bit over and under her tounge the whole time. She is so focused on messing with the bit that I cant get her to move the way I want. We have tried many bits, right now we have a very thin twisted one, the thinnest, smallest, lightest, bit I could find, still hates it.


Thin bits are harsher. They have more "bite" to them.

Smaller isn't always better. You don't want the width of the bit too be too small or that will create pinching issues.

How are YOU asking her with the bit? Are you releasing pressure at the proper time? This could be rider error. 

I would like to see pictures of the bits you have tried, since you used "thinnest" and "lightest" in the same sentence which don't work together. Bluntly put, I am doubting your knowledge of bits (although I am certainly not a bit guru myself, but I do have a general understanding).



HorseGirlie said:


> I have tried a mouth tie, to keep her mouth closed, hates it too.


Ummm, shall I duct tape *your* mouth shut? How would *you* like that?



HorseGirlie said:


> And I don't think it's her teeth because I looked in her mouth, no sores or anything, we are going to get her teeth rasped, but they aren't bad enought to cause any problems.


 
Are you an equine dentist? I'm not, and I wouldn't know squat just be looking into my own horse's mouth. Plus, you aren't even getting a look at the back molars without having a mouth speculum. 

So if she has NOT been seen by the dentist, then you do not know if she has a tooth problem. Get that done first. If she's 12 years old and has NEVER had her teeth done, she could have some very real problems. 



HorseGirlie said:


> She was trained with a bit so I don't know why all of a sudden she is doing this. I can ride her with a halter, but I really want to see if we could fix this problem first. Ay ideas????


This is where a video would be helpful to see how YOU are riding her. 99% of the time it is the rider's fault. 

Let's try an exercise here. Put her into a plain snaffle. And by that I mean:











Start with her saddled and bridled, and you on the ground. 

Stand on her left side and apply direct rein pressure on the left rein, to ask her to "give" to her left. Apply firm, but gradual pressure, and then hold gently until she gives you a correct response. The very, very instant she puts slack into the rein, you must release the rein, immediately. Praise her. Her reward for giving to the bit, was you releasing. If you do not do it at the proper time, she learns nothing and will just pull and fight the bit. 

Do this over, and over, and over (From both sides) until she is very consistent with giving to a very small amount of pressure.

Then apply slightly more pressure to ask her nose to move twice as far until she gets her release. Never pull harder on the rein. Just hold steady until she gets it. Immediately release when she gets it right. Again, repeat over and over on both sides until she gets really good at it. 

This should be your method for cueing her to do anything. Hold pressure steady until you get a correct response. Then release immeidately and praise. 

Sometimes a bit issue can arise if the rider is not doing pressure release properly, so that is why I bring it up.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Get her teeth checked, make sure the bridle fits correctly around the ears as well as the bit being the right height in her mouth.

99% of the time when all is well with the teeth, it is the hands holding the reins that are the problem!


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## HorseGirlie (Mar 27, 2012)

First off there is no need to be rude. The mouth tie is'nt mean she can still open her mouth half way, just wanted to try it because I see a lot of people try it and her previous trainers told me to try it. And of course I don't let it hit her teeth! I have tought her to put her head down but now she just won't do it. Her ground manners are good. I used the same bit I rode her in when we got her, still doesn't like it. Its the same one you have in the pic and that one she hates the most. No I'm not an equine dentist or a "bit" expert, but I'm not ignorant, I do know some things about this stuff. She has had her teeth done before but I just think its time to do it again. I know all about cues, and pressure and all that. So not to sound rude but, it's not me, I have had trainers watch me ride her and they said it wasn't me. So thanks but I don't think that's it. Also whether im rideing her or not she hates the bit. As for the "happy mouth", what is that?


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## Phly (Nov 14, 2012)

Is it possible she hurts elsewhere? Abscess,sore back, etc.... And she knows the bit meens riding which means pain. So she doesn't want the bit cause she don't wanna ride. Just a thought. My wife's first mare did that, had an abscess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

If you have a stall or small pen, remove the reins then put the bridle on her with a snaffle. Turn her loose and give her hay and let her deal with the bit. If she hadn't been ridden in a long while except for your ride you could have made her mouth sore. I'm not suggesting you did anything to hurt it, many horses are hypersensitive to a bit after a long while. Keep and eye on her leave the bit on for about an hour. Do this daily for about a week.


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## HorseGirlie (Mar 27, 2012)

I think it's hurting her mouth somehow, she has a shallow pallet. So I think she tosses her head because she really doesn't like it. We are just gonna have a vet come check her teeth and mouth and see if there is anything he sees that could be causing pain. She just keeps acting like its hurting, not that she doesn't understand.


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## HorseGirlie (Mar 27, 2012)

After the vet checks her and if nothings wrong, I might just try leaving it on and seeing what happens, good idea.


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## justinebee (Jul 21, 2010)

Sounds like a mouth issue to me, especially since you said she is unhappy with it in all the time, not just when she is ridden. Having the doctor/dentist come out is a good idea.

Also, they are right, a thinner bit is a harsher bit. It's like a thick rope pulling you around versus a thin one, the thicker one is more comfortable. I do wonder though, if you are using the regular jointed snaffle and you say she has a shallow pallet, is it perhaps hitting the roof of her mouth? Have you tried a french link or dr.bristol? Maybe check the size of the bit as well.


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## Shropshirerosie (Jan 24, 2012)

HorseGirlie said:


> First off there is no need to be rude. The mouth tie is'nt mean she can still open her mouth half way, just wanted to try it because I see a lot of people try it and her previous trainers told me to try it. And of course I don't let it hit her teeth! I have tought her to put her head down but now she just won't do it. Her ground manners are good. I used the same bit I rode her in when we got her, still doesn't like it. Its the same one you have in the pic and that one she hates the most. No I'm not an equine dentist or a "bit" expert, but I'm not ignorant, I do know some things about this stuff. She has had her teeth done before but I just think its time to do it again. I know all about cues, and pressure and all that. So not to sound rude but, it's not me, I have had trainers watch me ride her and they said it wasn't me. So thanks but I don't think that's it. Also whether im rideing her or not she hates the bit. As for the "happy mouth", what is that?


I'm going to wander in and say that I thought beau159 wasn't rude at all but actually went to a lot of effort to give you a full and well thought-out answer. 

If you look up Happy Mouth Bit on google you'll find loads of information about them.


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## hrslvr13 (Feb 14, 2012)

Another option might be a bosal or a Bitleas Bridle
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hrslvr13 (Feb 14, 2012)

Sorry - Bitless Bridle
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nixalba (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm going to to have to agree with Beau159. I don't believe she was being rude, just straight forward.

Only difference is I would suggest starting in a french-link snaffle.

I agree that you need a specialist to take care of teeth issues. There are many things that an untrained eye can miss especially without being able to get a good look all the way inside the mouth.

I would also check for other issues. Bridle fit, are there any stitches sticking out of the bridle that could be poking her or even her saddle fit could be off.

Also, ANY bit in the wrong hands can be harsh on the horses mouth. I watched an uneducated rider (where I used to board) slam her sensitive mare's mouth over and over until the mare was flinging her head so far back as to nearly hit her rider in the face. The mare had a plain medium width snaffle in her mouth. Coach's solution? Strap her down with a martingale... needless to say this turned to bucking and bolting.

Sometimes words can only tell so much of the story. I think it would very helpful to get a video of the entire process of bridling and riding.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

HorseGirlie said:


> First off there is no need to be rude.


Rude? I don't see how any of what I said was rude, except the mouth tie comment. Which, IMO, if you are forceably just trying to hold your horse's mouth shut with a device, you are simply ignoring what may truly be the problem. 

You came on here asking for help, and I'm trying to help. Take it or leave it. I think it may be wise for you to read the excellent post MH just posted yesterday: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/accepting-criticism-ideas-reality-your-way-145781/#post1787241





HorseGirlie said:


> mouth tie is'nt mean she can still open her mouth half way, just wanted to try it because I see a lot of people try it and her previous trainers told me to try it.


Doesn't matter because the core idea is that you are using a tool to mask the problem (forcably holding her mouth closed) instead of figuring out WHY she is having a bit issue in the first place and WHY she is wanting to open her mouth.



HorseGirlie said:


> And of course I don't let it hit her teeth!


Whoa, calm down. I ask that of everyone whenever there is a bit issue because you wouldn't believe how many people don't realize they are doing it by accident. I don't know what you are doing with your horse unless I ask. Don't get defensive. 




HorseGirlie said:


> I have tought her to put her head down but now she just won't do it. Her ground manners are good.


To me, these two sentences contradict each other. If her ground manners are indeed good, she should do everything willingly, including dropping her head (provided there is not a pain issue when checked by the *chiro* and the *dentist* and the *vet*).

How do you ask her to put her head down and what does she do in response?




HorseGirlie said:


> No I'm not an equine dentist or a "bit" expert, but I'm not ignorant, I do know some things about this stuff. She has had her teeth done before but I just think its time to do it again.


My point was: But you are not a vet, and not specialized in training for equine dentistry. In your OP you had said "_And I don't think it's her teeth because I looked in her mouth, no sores or anything, we are going to get her teeth rasped, but they aren't bad enought to cause any problems."_ and I am saying that you can't know if they are bad enough to cause problems unless you sedated her and searched the inside of her mouth, and unless you are an equine dentist.

I wouldn't look inside my husband's mouth and determine if he has a dental issue. I'm not a dentist. 




HorseGirlie said:


> I know all about cues, and pressure and all that. So not to sound rude but, it's not me, I have had trainers watch me ride her and they said it wasn't me. So thanks but I don't think that's it.


Well we don't know that. We've never seen you or never talked to you on these boards. So it's not to be rude when I ask or when I explain things, but simply to ask and find out. Again, it's surprising how many people don't know, and don't know that they don't know. 


I think it is best to wait until the dentist looks at her to determine if there is any underlynig problems, before we progress further.


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## HorseGirlie (Mar 27, 2012)

I just tried writing a long reply but my computer froze and I lost it. I don't want to try and type it all again. So long story short. Sorry if I sounded rude, I respect your opinion but won't always agree, I'm getting her teeth looked at and if it doesn't help I will post a video so we can try to figure this out. Thanks


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## Nixalba (Feb 18, 2009)

Even softer than a happy mouth would be a leather bit.

It would be soft enough to use while retraining this mare (after all pain issues have been checked out, of course).

I had somebody make one for me but she's been unavailable for a while, however, supposedly Bedford Tack in Tennessee can also make leather bits.

I don't have a photo of the bit itself but this my mare wearing it. It's just a strip of soft harness/bridle leather sewn onto bit rings.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/nix_alba/LaceyVaq1-1.jpg


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## HorseGirlie (Mar 27, 2012)

That's a good idea. Your horse really pretty, btw.


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## justinebee (Jul 21, 2010)

I've always been told that the point of the metal bit is so the horse can feel the vibrations in it's mouth, so if you have a "happy mouth bit" or a leather bit, the purpose of the bit is lost..


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## EthanQ (Sep 5, 2011)

Have somebody with experience watch you and critique your riding. Make sure you aren't ready heavyhanded. And Ride with your legs more, and less hands.


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## Nixalba (Feb 18, 2009)

Sorry, double post.


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## Nixalba (Feb 18, 2009)

HorseGirlie said:


> That's a good idea. Your horse really pretty, btw.


Thank you 



justinebee said:


> I've always been told that the point of the metal bit is so the horse can feel the vibrations in it's mouth, so if you have a "happy mouth bit" or a leather bit, the purpose of the bit is lost..


The horse's mouth is highly sensitive. He can probably feel a piece of string.


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## hrslvr13 (Feb 14, 2012)

Native Americans didn't use metal bits
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Nixalba said:


> The horse's mouth is highly sensitive. He can probably feel a piece of string.


Yes, he could feel it, but bits are about more than just feeling a pull. Bits are about providing a subtlety and a clarity of cues that other means of control just don't have. You can use pretty much anything to drag a horse's head around by the reins, but with a bit, you can pick up some of the slack out of a rein and get the desired response where with some other options, the horse wouldn't even feel the difference.



hrslvr13 said:


> Native Americans didn't use metal bits


Yes, they did, if they happened to have access to one. For those that didn't, the most common form of controlling the horse was a "war bridle" which was really nothing more than a thin strap of cord or sinew tied around the horse's lower jaw and through their mouth on top of their tongue. Used improperly, that has the ability to be incredibly harsh. You can do a google search for "indian horse war bridle" and find old pictures of actual native americans riding with just such a headstall.

Plus, the Native Americans weren't the supremely kind and understanding horsemen that people like the Pony Boy guy and disney movies would like folks to believe. Their training methods were abrupt and sometimes cruel, really not too much different from the cowboys in those days. The reason for that is they needed results as quickly as possible, they didn't have time to play with a horse in a round pen for 60 days before they tried to ride it, they had to get their horses broke quickly and get them suitable for war so that they would be safe to ride into raids and hunting buffalo.

Anyway, back to the OP. Step one is to have her checked by a dentist/vet to make sure her teeth are okay and there's nothing in her mouth that could be causing her pain. 

Also, I didn't see anywhere that you described the bit that they used on her at the rescue when you rode her and got along well. Maybe you did and I just skimmed over it. What type of bit was it?  If you don't know how to describe it, you can do a websearch for pictures of all kinds of horse bits and you can probably find one that looks similar.

Do you have a picture of her in the bit you're currently using? Though I agree with others that a thin twisted bit is one of the very worst options to try because even if there hadn't been trouble before, one of those used even a little bit wrong can cause some big trouble.


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## Nixalba (Feb 18, 2009)

smrobs said:


> Yes, he could feel it, but bits are about more than just feeling a pull. Bits are about providing a subtlety and a clarity of cues that other means of control just don't have. You can use pretty much anything to drag a horse's head around by the reins, but with a bit, you can pick up some of the slack out of a rein and get the desired response where with some other options, the horse wouldn't even feel the difference.



That was kind of my point. You don't need metal to convey your aids to the horse.

Sure, with a mullen mouth bit you cues may be a little less clear and precise but for a horse who needs to be retrained to accept the bit, especially in the case of one who has apprehension due to pain, this might be a good starting point.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

I've "liked" a few posts that I agree with. Just want to add:
I would try a french link in D rings - milder than a snaffle in O rings.
I would check headstall fit.
I would check bit length.

Also remember that even though she seems to be doing this for every rider, if just ONE of those riders is causing pain, that pain will carry through to every other rider's experience. Limit your horse to only one rider until this is resolved.


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## justinebee (Jul 21, 2010)

Nixalba said:


> That was kind of my point. You don't need metal to convey your aids to the horse.
> 
> Sure, with a mullen mouth bit you cues may be a little less clear and precise but for a horse who needs to be retrained to accept the bit, especially in the case of one who has apprehension due to pain, this might be a good starting point.


I think his point and mine was that bits are not meant to pull a horse's face around. It is meant for them to feel the vibrations from the elastic connection between the rider's hand and the horse's mouth. Leather bits cannot have these vibrations.


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## Nixalba (Feb 18, 2009)

justinebee said:


> I think his point and mine was that bits are not meant to pull a horse's face around. It is meant for them to feel the vibrations from the elastic connection between the rider's hand and the horse's mouth. Leather bits cannot have these vibrations.


Ok, please forgive me but I'm failing to see where I said anything about pulling the horse's face around. In fact, I think I've suggested the opposite in stating that the horse has a highly sensitive mouth.

Horses learn by pressure and release. Whether you were to use a metal bit or leather (or whatever other material), rewarding the horse for the desired response will achieve the same end result regardless of what material in his mouth.

My first suggestion was indeed a metal bit (a french-link snaffle, in fact) but I would think that a softer, warmer and more pliable bit for a horse who has pain issues might be a starting point on the way back to riding with a metal bit.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

You could try a Waterford. Think of it as a French link with 5 links instead of 3. Very flexible in the horse's mouth:










My mare seems to like it better than her other bits, except the one I have is a little narrow for her - they usually recommend getting these 1/4 - 1/2 inch wider than you normally use. It offers a lot of flexibility in the mouth so it can be a good bit for a horse with a low palate.

My other horses are happy with 2-link full cheek bits, so I can't offer much from experience.


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## G8tdh0rse (Aug 14, 2012)

So if the horse is happy in a riding halter, what is wrong with just using i?. OK perhaps you can't do high level communication with one but perhaps you don't do that anyway. I can neck rein, side pass, two track and change leads in my riding halter. I'm not trying for dressage level control so my horse and I are happy with what is working for us.


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## hrslvr13 (Feb 14, 2012)

I thought you wanted to fix the problem of her not liking the bit?
If you prefer to avoid a bit and are doing everything you want to do in the halter I would say to use it or a closely similar solution like the Bitless bridle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jensvl (Dec 9, 2012)

I think that the best thing you can do, is not using a bit to ride. If you don't like that, you can use a bit, but than you better try to find a bit that fits in the mouth (not as easy as most people think) and let the horse get a checkup for blocks in the mussles or pain in mussles or bones.


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## harvesterdaughter (Dec 8, 2012)

We have a horse that plays with the bit if you use one on him so much that he can't listen to the rider. I would suggest that you try a mechanical hackamore because that is what we use on him and he does really good with it. Some horses just are not cut out for bits. You could probably get her checked out by the vet if you wanted to just to make sure there is nothing wrong. Nobody knows your horse like you do tho so follow your instincts and do what you think is best.


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## HorseGirlie (Mar 27, 2012)

Well I tried riding her with just a halter and she didn't do so good. She would shake her head around every time I tried turning her and if I pulled back to get her to stop she would raise her head really far. She is usually really good about keeping her head down, but not in the halter.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Has the dentist been out yet? How about the chiro?




HorseGirlie said:


> Well I tried riding her with just a halter and she didn't do so good. She would shake her head around every time I tried turning her and if I pulled back to get her to stop she would raise her head really far. She is usually really good about keeping her head down, but not in the halter.


I stressed this concept in my last post: Training to fix the problem. And making sure the horse has good ground manners.

Have you gone through the steps to TEACH her to put her head down with a halter? Or to teach her to give to side pressure with the halter? Did you go through the giving to pressure exercise I described, with the halter? (Since you said you knew how to properly apply cues and pressure with the reins.) If you have not done any training or ground work with her as I described, I would highly recommend you do, since you are clearly having issues with her. 

And the fact that she is raising her head in response to pressure, means that you need to go through those training exercises with her, so she learns to give to the pressure, and not brace against it. 

What else are you doing to ask her to stop, or are you simply pulling back on the reins? (Remember, I am not asking these questions to be rude. I am asking them because I have not seen you ride and you have not posted a video. I can't assume what you are doing.)

Let's start from the walk. Your horse is walking forward and your body is "walking with her". Your horse should be relaxed and there should be slack in the reins. When you are ready to ask her to stop, first "stop riding" with your body. So you need to tilt your tailbone downward, and put your weight back. Secondly, use a verbal "whoa" that you have taught your horse to recognize during ground work training. And lastly, if your horse does not respond to your seat and your voice, then you may add slight rein pressure evenly on both reins. When you horse has stopped forward motion completely, release the rein pressure (if you needed to use it) and resume sitting normally in your saddle. 

Reins are only your "last resort". Most of your riding should come from your body, seat, and legs. 


I do not mean this in a derogatory way, but it really sounds like to me that your horse's problems are stemming from the way you are riding, and/or from the way she was ridden before. I know you mentioned that you have had trainer(s) watch you. Have you taken actual lessons with a trainer? Or just had one glance over at you?


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## jensvl (Dec 9, 2012)

I agree with beau159.
One thing I'd likes you to know is that if you need to pull the reins towards you, you're doing it with a low power and then do not increase power. Just hold that power and wait. Your horse will react with a try (that is a movement of the horse to find out what the right answer is.) This try can be as slight as moving the head a very little bit towards you or slowing down very slight.
If you do not see those movements (what happens usually with the most people because they do not know where to look for) your horse probably won't learn to stop on a light pressure because this try has to come en has to be rewarded before the horse know that that is the rigt answer. If you do not reward the try, the horse won't stop because then he does not know that slowing down is the right answer.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

HorseGirlie: Is there any way we can see a video of you riding her? I think that would help alot for us to answer your questions.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

bsms said:


> You could try a Waterford. Think of it as a French link with 5 links instead of 3. Very flexible in the horse's mouth:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Waterford is *not* like a French link with more than one link, sorry. They're illegal in hunters and dressage, for one, and they have a completely different function - ie a "full mouth feel" more like a chain bit that collapses against pressure.
It is not "just like" a double jointed bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Firstly it doesnt matter how experienced you feel you are its not possible to really check how sharp or uneven a horses teeth are without you have a gag in its mouth - maybe you have one - but if not you need a vet or horse dentist to do this. The horse may even have an ulcer in its mouth.
Second - though some horse may go well in a twisted bit they arent suitable for a horse thats nervous of its mouth as they are sharp and so harsh
Waterford bits are considered a 'harsh' bit in the UK - for horses that pull so unless you ride on a very loose light rein then not at all suitable
Horse that get their tongue over the bit or try to do that are better in a straight or low ported bit, any sort of jointed bit makes it easier for them to do it.
I would try the horse in a shaped mullen mouth Happy Mouth bit, they arent as thick as some straight bits and very kind on the mouth
*Smrobs* is totally right about the leather bits - can be very harsh and also can be chewed through if a horse is that way inclined
If all else fails then forget about trying rope halters - buy a good leather or synthetic leather sidepull bridle, they give much clearer directions and are a lot less likely to rub a horses face.
I wont comment on your riding as without seeing a video I have no idea of what you're hands are doing.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

JustDressageIt said:


> The Waterford is *not* like a French link with more than one link, sorry. They're illegal in hunters and dressage, for one, and they have a completely different function - ie a "full mouth feel" more like a chain bit that collapses against pressure.
> It is not "just like" a double jointed bit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My point, which I thought was clear, was that it is a very flexible bit. I never said it was "just like" a French link, but that it is "Very flexible in the horse's mouth...so it can be a good bit for a horse with a low palate".



jaydee said:


> ...Waterford bits are considered a 'harsh' bit in the UK - for horses that pull so unless you ride on a very loose light rein then not at all suitable...


The OP mentioned using a thin, twisted bit, so my assumption was that she was not riding with a lot of contact. She also mentioned her horse has a shallow palate, and her posting history indicates she does barrel racing - thus my belief she is a western rider using slack in the reins.


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

Finally got to the end of this thread. Thought I'd toss in my 2 cents.

First, I agree that you ought to get the horse's mouth and teeth checked. You said you were going to have the teeth floated, so knock it all out at the same time.

Next, it sounds to me that whatever happened before you got the horse back has caused the horse to learn some bad habits. I have seen this kind of thing happen with horses that are used for performance games, such as barrels, poles, etc. The horse gets excited and wants to run. Then the rider has to hold them back with the bit and the horse gets "hard-mouthed" and tosses the head to fight the bit. I suspect that's what happened in your horse's case. Bad habits are harder to undo than they are to avoid altogether. You are going to have to go back to school with her to get her acting the way she ought to act. Beau159 gave some good instructional information about that.

My suggestion is that you get the bit out of the horse's mouth for a while and spend some time re-training her. Go with a bosal (my dad likes a mechanical hackamore for riding, but they're not as good for training as a bosal). Get a fairly stiff bosal with a rawhide core (I recently bought a complete set -bosal, hanger, mecate - for $107) and learn the proper way to form and fit the bosal and tie the mecate (reins).

Work with your horse to teach her to lower her head for you (might as well start at the beginning) and put the bosal on her. Then start on the ground by doing flexion exercises (teaching her to move her head to the pressure and flex her neck by doing what Beau159 said). Also teach her to back by applying pressure to the nosepiece of the bosal with your hand as you pull the reins (still a ground exercise). Once she has become acquainted with the bosal and what is expected when pressure is applied, you can start riding her with it. It doesn't take long for them to pick it up. If you still have problems with her tossing her head, you're probably going to have to spend a lot more time on the ground teaching her to move and give to the pressure. 

I also like to stand the horse (with me in the saddle) and apply gentle pressure to the bosal via the reins (not hard enough to make her back). I hold the pressure until the horse dips her nose. I then _immediately_ release the pressure and pat her on the neck. I will do this exercise for maybe five minutes, requiring her to give a little more each time, before moving off to another exercise. It teaches the horse that it feels good to flex at the poll to relieve the pressure on the nose. That exercise translates well when you go to the curb bit. They already understand that "it feels good to give".

I would also suggest you spend time teaching her leg pressure cues. You have to start that on the ground as well and I won't go into all that here, since there are other threads with that information. Once you start riding with leg cues rather than relying completely on the reins, it gives the horse more to think about and respond to and can help with a horse that tosses the head.

The bosal is normally used as a training device between the snaffle bit and the curb bit. I like riding with a bosal and if my horse is fine with it I may never go to the curb bit. However, if a horse does not respond well to a bosal, or is not easy to control with it, or if the rider is naturally heavy-handed on the reins, calcium deposits and callouses will eventually form on the nose and lower jaw bars of the horse. I suggest you use a bosal as outlined above for 2-3 months and get your horse past the head-tossing habit, then go back to a normal curb bit. Hopefully that will give time for any soreness in the horse's mouth to heal and you might also have the horse responding to cues other than the bit and the horse will have less time to think about head-tossing.

Hope that helps. Just remember, teaching your horse to be obedient and submissive to you will make her a happier horse. Letting her do as she pleases will make both of you unhappy with each other. A gentle, but firm and consistent hand is required.


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

If all is well and you decide not to fight with a bit, aeron mack riding halters are great! 

Act like a regular bridle.


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## HorseGirlie (Mar 27, 2012)

Well I started with ground work again, she is now lowering her head better because I have only been using a halter to ride her instead. She is doing better. I do not use her on barrels that my other horse. With her I just doing some fun riding like trail and sometimes do small jumps to keep her active. She was a rescue horse and was brought in with a lot of race horses. They said they don't think she was raced but I'm wondering if she was and that why she hates the preasure on her mouth. I don't know lots about race horses but I heard they the rider pulls on the mouth a lot to hold them back. So if she was raced that might be why she hates the bit?? But if she gets better with just a halter I will not use a bit and stick with the halter. I might get a bosal, too. I prefer that way anyways.


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## kateyb1622 (Oct 24, 2012)

justinebee said:


> I've always been told that the point of the metal bit is so the horse can feel the vibrations in it's mouth, so if you have a "happy mouth bit" or a leather bit, the purpose of the bit is lost..


Not really true. The mouth and tongue are VERY sensitive to any touch, pressure, or pulling. In my opinion metal translates the message stronger but, isn't always necessary and does not mean it's the best option.

Maybe someone already asked but do you have a round pen where you could she how she responds to a hackamore or side-pull? I have known horses that not only respond well but, have a much better attitude and are a better ride without a bit. Every horse is different.

This was also maybe already mentioned but, if it's not an issue with pain maybe starting from scratch and transitioning to find the right fit. I would start with flexing exercises from the ground. Start in her halter to get her soft, ask her to lower her head (without the bridle or bit) and reward her until she has it down. This way you can get a feel for how she responds to pressure and make a transition to a snaffle from there. A wide mouth piece is a good starting choice. Thin mouthpieces are hard on the sides of the mouth and have more of a bite. Soft hands are important as well, any bit can be harsh in heavy hands. 

I find it helpful to just practice bridling and taking the bit, then reward and repeat, you don't necessarily have to ride. Sometimes it's not easy but, try not to clank her teeth while the bit is going in or out (I have seen this make some horses bit shy). Be sure the bridle and the bit (mouth piece) are properly fitted. Sometimes starting at square one helps to make the connection with what the issue is. If the issue stems from a past trauma this is a good way to begin regaining trust between you two. Some horses require more time and patience. 

I love happy mouth bits! I have also seen some with rubber mouth pieces that are apple or peppermint flavored (never tired them) but, they may aid in teaching her to take the bit and/or get comfortable with it. Maybe a good way to make it easier and more fun for her??


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Bsms - you stated "think of a Waterford as a French link with more joints" - thus hinting that they are very similar in action... Which they are not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

HorseGirlie said:


> Well I started with ground work again, she is now lowering her head better because I have only been using a halter to ride her instead. She is doing better. I do not use her on barrels that my other horse. With her I just doing some fun riding like trail and sometimes do small jumps to keep her active. She was a rescue horse and was brought in with a lot of race horses. They said they don't think she was raced but I'm wondering if she was and that why she hates the preasure on her mouth. I don't know lots about race horses but I heard they the rider pulls on the mouth a lot to hold them back. So if she was raced that might be why she hates the bit?? But if she gets better with just a halter I will not use a bit and stick with the halter. I might get a bosal, too. I prefer that way anyways.


 
Has the dentist been out yet?

There's no rule that says you have to ride in a bit, but don't cancel your dental appointment just because you may have decided to ride her bitless. Good dental work is the key to overall health. If a horse has a dental issue, it can be causing pain when they eat, and still cause some behavioral problems with riding ... even if there isn't a bit in their mouth. 

(After the vet comes out.....) Basically, as I already explained, I'd be treating this horse as if she was brand new to riding and never ridden. Making her give to the halter in all directions (up, down, left, right) and keeping perfect ground manners. Introduce a snaffle bit as if she has never worn one, working on putting the bit in and out, and working on giving to pressure in all directions. And doing all this on the ground for a least a couple days, with no riding (as I would with a true young one). Ground driving can be a great exercise to work with the bit too, without actually riding. 



> Next, it sounds to me that whatever happened before you got the horse back has caused the horse to learn some bad habits. I have seen this kind of thing happen with horses that are used for performance games, such as barrels, poles, etc. The horse gets excited and wants to run. Then the rider has to hold them back with the bit and the horse gets "hard-mouthed" and tosses the head to fight the bit. I suspect that's what happened in your horse's case.


And just wanted to throw it out there that yes there are bad barrel racers out there with terrible hands that give the rest of us a bad name ....... but we're not all like that, nor are our horses.


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

I havent read ALL of the posts but my question is, why use a bit anyway? When it comes right down with it and you (people in general) drop all the excuses, bits are designed plain and simple to cause the horse a suffiscient amount of pain to get a response. If the horse responds fine without a bit, why put a hunk of metal or anything really, inside it's mouth, which is a very sensitive area anyway.
Try a bosal or even a bitless bridle/ sidepull if you dont want a normal rope halter (which i know dont always look the best lol)
The horse is telling you something, it's all a matter of understanding what that is and more often than not, it all comes down to an issue of comfort or unconfidence.
Best of luck and i hope all turns out well for the both of you!


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

beau159 said:


> Has the dentist been out yet?
> 
> And just wanted to throw it out there that yes there are bad barrel racers out there with terrible hands that give the rest of us a bad name ....... but we're not all like that, nor are our horses.


 This one's not really for you beau, but for the post you quoted... just adding on that most cases i have seen of barrel horses that go a bit "crazy" is not because the horse is excited to run at all. It is simply his flight/fear response kicking because if you watch the really bad horses that are impossible to control, you will always notice how horribly the rider rides. It is nothing but shouting, kicking, spurs and whips and really, NO wonder the horse feels he has to run, because he knows what is coming and what will happen to him if he doesn't.
I AM NOT SAYING ALL BARREL RACERS DO THIS, but sadly, many do because they are more concerned about their times and not about their horse's mental condition before, during and after the run.


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

lilruffian said:


> This one's not really for you beau, but for the post you quoted... just adding on that most cases i have seen of barrel horses that go a bit "crazy" is not because the horse is excited to run at all. It is simply his flight/fear response kicking because if you watch the really bad horses that are impossible to control, you will always notice how horribly the rider rides. It is nothing but shouting, kicking, spurs and whips and really, NO wonder the horse feels he has to run, because he knows what is coming and what will happen to him if he doesn't.
> I AM NOT SAYING ALL BARREL RACERS DO THIS, but sadly, many do because they are more concerned about their times and not about their horse's mental condition before, during and after the run.


I have to disagree with you on much of what you said here. Horses get a rush out of running. Horses that are commonly used for competitive speed events often get pretty hyped-up when they are about to enter on their event. It has little or nothing to do with fear in most horses. It has more to do with the competitive nature of the horse. All of us know how difficult it is to keep some horses back while the group canters ahead, or how some horses will tug at the bit to stay ahead of the horse cantering next to it. Some horses can become uncontrollable, while others remain calm, before and after the event. Generally speaking, the more competitive the horse, the harder he/she is to control, and the better he/she performs. I have occasionally seen a horse that gets his/her blood up as it enters the arena, but excellent training causes the horse to remain soft on the bit while it prances around in preparation for the start. However, that is not the norm. Many horses will run their heart out just for the thrill of running and never require even the slightest touch or threat with a crop or quirt or spurs or yelling. It is the rare horse that will enter the arena for a barrel race and hours later enter the same arena for a Western Pleasure event and do well. Conversely, if the horse does well in the Western Pleasure event, you can almost bet he didn't place in the barrels. 

As for your comments on the bit, there is nothing cruel about a bit. Some riders are cruel in the way they use bits. Some horses require harsher bits to keep them under control. Yes they cause discomfort, but only if the horse resists (if the bit is properly used). A well trained horse suffers no discomfort from a bit under the hands of a good rider. In fact, I once had a mare that was exceptionally nervous on the trail and very "mare-ish" around other horses. We got her a bit with a copper "cricket" in it. It settled her right down and she ended up being the best trail horse (even for my type of mountain trails) I have ever had. The only problem was that I never saw wildlife while riding her, because you could hear her play with that cricket with her tongue for a couple hundred yards. It was just enough to keep her nervous energy from building up. Many bits are made of "sweet steel" which actually tastes good to the horse. Many bits are configured to cause the horse to hold it's head properly to avoid pressure on it's pallet. 

There are any number of bits of almost infinite designs, all of which were created to address a particular issue. For most horses and western riding style, a standard curb bit, also called a grazing bit, does everything the horse and rider needs. And a bit does, in fact, impart better signals from the rider's hands to the horse, without harshness, than does a bitless bridle or a bosal. In some kinds of competitive riding and ranch work, that is crucial (reining, for example). 

Riding with a halter outside an arena or corral I consider dangerous. There are bitless bridles, which I do not regard as a halter. I have never used one and have no opinion on them. As I stated above, a bosal, poorly fitted or poorly used, is much harsher than the average curb bit, which is why it is used for training prior to bitting a horse. Overuse or poor use of a bosal will create callouses and calcium deposits on the nose and lower jaws of a horse, whereupon they will become rather insensitive to it. A halter simply offers no way to control a horse that is spooked or that has simply decided it's time to get back to the stable. I consider riding with a halter outside a controlled environment, such as a pasture or arena, to be dangerous and foolish. The _ability_ of the rider to inflict discomfort, or even pain, on the horse through a bit or hackamore (bosal included), when necessary, is essential for the rider's safety. A rider must have that available when the proverbial "crap hits the fan", and _there is no "bomb-proof" horse_.

Sorry if I offend, but I strongly disagree with both your posts.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

lilruffian said:


> This one's not really for you beau, but for the post you quoted... just adding on that most cases i have seen of barrel horses that go a bit "crazy" is not because the horse is excited to run at all. It is simply his flight/fear response kicking because if you watch the really bad horses that are impossible to control, you will always notice how horribly the rider rides. It is nothing but shouting, kicking, spurs and whips and really, NO wonder the horse feels he has to run, because he knows what is coming and what will happen to him if he doesn't.
> I AM NOT SAYING ALL BARREL RACERS DO THIS, but sadly, many do because they are more concerned about their times and not about their horse's mental condition before, during and after the run.


And I have to disagree with this as well. I mean, sure there are bad barrel riders, like in ALL of the disciplines, but a barrel horse that is hyped is a focused horse ready to do it's job....plain and simple. It is, after all, a timed speed event.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I've never done barrel racing (not a UK thing) but spent my child to teenage years competing at top level mounted games. My ponies were always on their back legs anticipating the 'go' because they loved their job and knew what was expected of them
I know there are bad barrel race riders - I've seen them in action but to win in this sport must take the same type of training as it does to produce a top gymkhana pony. If they are hyped and in fear flight mode then they aren't going to be able to stop and turn to instant command which is as just as important


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

The NFR horses in the alley, a lot of them will go crazy or at least appear to be crazy and hyper but they're an example of control. Barrel horses get excited for a job that's a rush for them.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

lilruffian said:


> I havent read ALL of the posts but my question is, why use a bit anyway? When it comes right down with it and you (people in general) drop all the excuses, *bits are designed plain and simple to cause the horse a suffiscient amount of pain to get a response.* If the horse responds fine without a bit, why put a hunk of metal or anything really, inside it's mouth, which is a very sensitive area anyway.
> Try a bosal or even a bitless bridle/ sidepull if you dont want a normal rope halter (which i know dont always look the best lol)
> The horse is telling you something, it's all a matter of understanding what that is and more often than not, it all comes down to an issue of comfort or unconfidence.
> Best of luck and i hope all turns out well for the both of you!


The bolded statement is completely and utterly not true. If bits inflicted physical PAIN as you so describe, no horse would ever allow you to put one into their mouth. 

By your terms, we could go so far as to say that the purpose of all saddles is to cause pain. Or all spurs are to cause pain. Or all whips cause pain. Etc.

When used properly, bits may cause _pressure_ as a signal, but not pain. Yes, there are poor riders out there with poor hands who yank and jerk on their horse's mouth. And those riders are just that: Bad riders. A good horseperson with good hands can ride in what looks to be a severe and harsh bit to the untrained eye, when really it is a bit that can offer immense communication through the slightest movement of the rider's hand. 

The same way you can use a saddle as a form of communication. Or spurs. Or a whip. 

Bits are designed for refinement. You can't get "refinement" in a halter or a sidepull. 



> This one's not really for you beau, but for the post you quoted... just adding on that most cases i have seen of barrel horses that go a bit "crazy" is not because the horse is excited to run at all. It is simply his flight/fear response kicking because if you watch the really bad horses that are impossible to control, you will always notice how horribly the rider rides. It is nothing but shouting, kicking, spurs and whips and really, NO wonder the horse feels he has to run, because he knows what is coming and what will happen to him if he doesn't.
> I AM NOT SAYING ALL BARREL RACERS DO THIS, but sadly, many do because they are more concerned about their times and not about their horse's mental condition before, during and after the run.


Yes, there are riders out there that contribute to their horse becoming uncontrollable and sour on the pattern.

But it is NOT the rider kicking, spurring, or shouting that MAKES a horse run. You can't force a horse to run, just like you can't force a horse to drink water. If anything, a horse that is soured on the pattern or soured from a bad rider will eventually refuse to run, often rearing in the air to get away from it, or refusing to go into the arena altogether.

There are plenty of "crazy-looking" horses that love their job and have great riders. Did you watch the most recent NFR just last week? Those NFR horses look like nut jobs (to the untrained eye), jumping around, prancing, throwing their head, etc. But they are _that_ darned excited to get in there and burn up those barrels. It's all about controlled craziness. Which is different from those bad riders out there who are causing the craziness in their horse.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

If all I did was kick, spur, and yell...Selena would just fall asleep. :rofl:


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

Hey guys, I didn't mean to turn this into a "trash Lilruffian" thread. I just disagreed with a couple of her statements. Let's get back to the OP's original problem, which was trying to figure out why her horse is doing poorly on the bit.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Pretty sure we weren't bashing and also pretty sure we've figured out a good majority of the issues already.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

thenrie said:


> Hey guys, I didn't mean to turn this into a "trash Lilruffian" thread. I just disagreed with a couple of her statements. Let's get back to the OP's original problem, which was trying to figure out why her horse is doing poorly on the bit.


We are not "trashing" lilruffian. She posted a statement and we are entitled to agree or disagree with her input, as well as the reasons why. She is more than welcome to offer her discussion points in return. 

I do feel that what lilruffian posted is relevant to the OP's overall question, since the OP stated that she may just stick with a halter or bosal. Which is not wrong to do, but I don't feel that it is correct to say that bits cause outright pain, because that's just not true, if that is your reason for wanting to use a halter or bosal or sidepull. I personally feel that ALL horse's should be able to accept a bit with proper dental and health care and proper hands and training. Whether or not you use one, obviously, there's no rule on that. 

Plus, if there is a pain-related dental issue (as I mentioned earlier), you don't want to_ just not put a bit in the horse's mouth_ and not deal with the dental issue ... you want to fix the dental issue, because it can affect the horse's health too.


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## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

lilruffian said:


> This one's not really for you beau, but for the post you quoted... just adding on that most cases i have seen of barrel horses that go a bit "crazy" is not because the horse is excited to run at all. It is simply his flight/fear response kicking because if you watch the really bad horses that are impossible to control, you will always notice how horribly the rider rides. It is nothing but shouting, kicking, spurs and whips and really, NO wonder the horse feels he has to run, because he knows what is coming and what will happen to him if he doesn't.
> I AM NOT SAYING ALL BARREL RACERS DO THIS, but sadly, many do because they are more concerned about their times and not about their horse's mental condition before, during and after the run.


I noticed everyone was bashing you, and telling you that you're wrong.. You're not..

A hot horse Isn't born that way.. they don't fall out of their mother, and get hot, when they pass a gait, or when they go in a roping box, arena,etc.. They are MADE! It's due to poor training.. 

The thing I absolutely hate about barrel racing.. the mother screaming "KICK HER HICK HER KICK HER KICK HER" And the Daughter Jumping out of the saddle kicking the mess out of her poor horse with spurs..(Not barrel spirs, big spirs with jingle bobs) and the girl is snatching on the poor horse's mouth with a Tomthumb bit, or a bit with 5ft shanks(sarcastic*I know there isn't a 5ft bit*) and their horse don't stop, because they haven't taught a proper stop, so they snatch their mouth damnnear off their face.. That's what makes a silly/psychotic horse.. the worst part is, when they try andsell it for 5k.. That's a JOKE! Lol. 

I'm not against spurs, or bits, but you gotta know when it's ridiculous!


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## jensvl (Dec 9, 2012)

HorseGirlie said:


> Well I tried riding her with just a halter and she didn't do so good. She would shake her head around every time I tried turning her and if I pulled back to get her to stop she would raise her head really far. She is usually really good about keeping her head down, but not in the halter.


That is normal. The pressure is not the same, so probably you have to give her some time and learn her what she has to do. Reward her every time when she is doing it right. Then those symptoms will go away. Because that behavior is caused by misunderstanding.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

twp said:


> A hot horse Isn't born that way.. they don't fall out of their mother, and get hot, when they pass a gait, or when they go in a roping box, arena,etc.. They are MADE! It's due to poor training.


You are saying that a horse is made "hot" because they are trained poorly. Did I understand you correctly? 

So if I did understand you correctly, and that is indeed what you think, I will frankly say that you are dead wrong. 

Here's a link to round 1 of the 2012 NAtional Finals Rodeo barrel racing, just last week. 






These horses are clearly HOT and are there to do there job. Have they been trained poorly? Absolutely not. 

For example: The first horse and rider that are going into the arena. That horse is jumping all over the place ("hot"). His name is Rascal. And he wants to get in there and run. Now, let me point out that he is a borrowed horse for this gal, because her main mount is hurt. THat was only about the 3rd time she had ridden him. Period. It's very, very difficult to jump on a strange horse and ride them perfectly, much less a world-caliber horse at the National Finals Rodeo. I think she did pretty dang well, much better than I could have done hopping on a replacement horse because mine is hurt. She keeps her hands down and quiet, and her body calm and quiet and whole time. That horse is just hyped up to do his job, just like the Denver Broncos football team hypes themselves up in the alley, before they run out onto the field. 

But he must just be poorly trained, as you stated. 

Trula's horse (rider #2) was a little easier to handle in the alleyway, but every horse will have a different personality, a different level of nervousness, and a different way of being excited to go. 

3rd rider out, Christina Richman, is also riding a borrowed horse. Her main horse got hurt before the Finals. Just the horse is jumping on the bit, and pulling pulling to get in there and go. Poorly trained? NOT. On the muscle? YES.

I could go on through the rest of these, great, great ladies, but I'm not going to. I hope you get the idea that a HOT horse does not mean they are poorly trained. 




twp said:


> The thing I absolutely hate about barrel racing.. the mother screaming "KICK HER HICK HER KICK HER KICK HER" And the Daughter Jumping out of the saddle kicking the mess out of her poor horse with spurs..(Not barrel spirs, big spirs with jingle bobs) and the girl is snatching on the poor horse's mouth with a Tomthumb bit, or a bit with 5ft shanks(sarcastic*I know there isn't a 5ft bit*) and their horse don't stop, because they haven't taught a proper stop, so they snatch their mouth damnnear off their face.. That's what makes a silly/psychotic horse.. the worst part is, when they try andsell it for 5k.. That's a JOKE! Lol.


And THAT type of rider is the "bad riders" I talked about earlier. 

And I already pointed out there is a huge difference between a crazy-in-the-head-hot-horse (that has been ruined through the scenario you described) versus a controlled hot horse that loves his job and wants to get in there and run barrels.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Anyone who has ever bred horses and trained them from day one will know that YES some are actually born 'hot', horses arent cookie cutter all made from the same mold
I have a mare that was fizzy and excitable from the moment she popped out but that doesnt mean she wasnt trainable. She is in fact totally non spooky, could do a fair dressage test, behave out hunting and is totally controllable at all times
Its all in the way they are ridden and educated to know exactly whats expected of them at all times.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

twp said:


> A hot horse Isn't born that way..


Ah, the old Nature vs. Nurture debate. Sorry, but I have to disagree with you, TWP. 
Horses are born with a certain personality, if you will excuse the expression. Some are hot from the day they are born to the day they die, some are laid-back. Having said that, training CAN (and does) influence a horse's personality/reaction to certain situations. But I disagree that horses aren't "born that way."


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

beau159 said:


> You are saying that a horse is made "hot" because they are trained poorly. Did I understand you correctly?
> 
> So if I did understand you correctly, and that is indeed what you think, I will frankly say that you are dead wrong.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting that vid! I LOVE watching them come out of the chute...I get a rush and I'm not even riding them, just watching!


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## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

lol, They are poorly trained.. A horse that is acting like a complete Idiot like that is ridiculous!! I don't care if all of you tell me I'm wrong.. You don't see a Reining horse act that way, when they go through the gate. lol.. Thanks for the Laugh, though.

lol, I didn't see you say There is a difference between a Psycho/poorly trained Hot horse, and a "Good hot horse".. I'm Literally in TEARS right now.:rofl: 

How bout a horse, that is TRAINED to run, knows they're gonna get to run, and EXPLODES into the arena like a bat out of Hades!! That's not "Control" There is a woman that has been racing barrels for a very long time, and none of her horses Explode when they go through the gate like that.. Sorry, I know Y'all are Professional Horse Trainers, and all, but it's not true. A horse is Taught to Do that, and that's just a Fact.


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## Phly (Nov 14, 2012)

twp said:


> lol, They are poorly trained.. A horse that is acting like a complete Idiot like that is ridiculous!! I don't care if all of you tell me I'm wrong.. You don't see a Reining horse act that way, when they go through the gate. lol.. Thanks for the Laugh, though.


I have a leg on both sides of this fence. Pro horses aren't necessarily trained to be rank, but are allowed to be as that's what the riders want. Full throttle. Fight or flight. I see a lot of good horses go that way on accident and it's a bummer to see. We train our barrel horses to walk in the arena and stand. No laps picking up leads (they know them), no running in from a 100yrds away. Calm and ready. Do They lose time? Not enough to worry about. But we don't race for millions. Actually went to ride at an outdoor practice arena that had a trainer there. She was teaching others barrels. Asked for the usual pick up lead circles bla bla bla. Horse ran like crap. Did it our way and jaws dropped! Not saying I'm better then a trainer. But it works for us. And money winning horses that can trail ride are handy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

Phly said:


> I have a leg on both sides of this fence. Pro horses aren't necessarily trained to be rank, but are allowed to be as that's what the riders want. Full throttle. Fight or flight. I see a lot of good horses go that way on accident and it's a bummer to see. We train our barrel horses to walk in the arena and stand. No laps picking up leads (they know them), no running in from a 100yrds away. Calm and ready. Do They lose time? Not enough to worry about. But we don't race for millions. Actually went to ride at an outdoor practice arena that had a trainer there. She was teaching others barrels. Asked for the usual pick up lead circles bla bla bla. Horse ran like crap. Did it our way and jaws dropped! Not saying I'm better then a trainer. But it works for us. And money winning horses that can trail ride are handy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have to agree with you on not loosing time walking in.. My bestie's horse would walk in the arena, and would smoke every horse there.. BADLY!! lol.. Matter of fact, another girl who would walk into the arena, actually made it to world.. She always rode her horses in to the arena that way, and they always did GREAT.

The horses with the Combination Bits, who were hard to control, that would run in the arena sideways, as soon as the gait opened, were usually the ones that would knock down barrels, because they weren't paying attention.. All they wanted to do was GO! No good training at all. It kills me when they don't put a good stop on their horses, and you see them in the ally way snatching on their face, to get them to stop, lol.. Also lacking training. 

It seems like to me, They run out of juice running their way in the arena, when they could have saved that energy, put it to good use, and get a Better Time.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

twp said:


> lol, They are poorly trained.. A horse that is acting like a complete Idiot like that is ridiculous!! I don't care if all of you tell me I'm wrong.. *You don't see a Reining horse act that way, when they go through the gate. lol.. Thanks for the Laugh, though.*
> 
> lol, I didn't see you say There is a difference between a Psycho/poorly trained Hot horse, and a "Good hot horse".. I'm Literally in TEARS right now.:rofl:
> 
> How bout a horse, that is TRAINED to run, knows they're gonna get to run, and EXPLODES into the arena like a bat out of Hades!! That's not "Control" There is a woman that has been racing barrels for a very long time, and none of her horses Explode when they go through the gate like that.. Sorry, I know Y'all are Professional Horse Trainers, and all, but it's not true. A horse is Taught to Do that, and that's just a Fact.


 
LOL, you can't compare reiners and timed event horses!!! Reining is NOT a speed event, so trying to make a comparison is ridiculous.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I certainly won't point to Mia as a perfectly trained horse. Far from it. But she has taught me the difference a horse's personality can make. When I first started cantering with her in an arena, she was poorly balanced. It took 4-5 rides for her to figure out a controlled, relaxed canter was easier on her. And she now gives a pretty relaxed, controlled canter in the arena, with or without another horse. By herself, on a trail, she seems to enjoy a canter, but she stays calm and will drop to a trot when asked.

But ask her to canter with another horse on a trail, and it is like the difference between night and day! She won't canter. She gallops. If she starts in front, she wants to gallop and leave the other horse behind. If she is behind, she will canter until she thinks the trail is wide enough for her to pass. Then she shifts gears and will try to pass with little regard for her safety or the other horse.

When I won't let her, she gets ****ed! I now know what the term "bit in the teeth" means. If she can get a firm grip on it, she will then ignore it completely unless I can brute force the issue. Using brute force to control a horse on a trail while she is fighting you is no fun. But to date, this only happens when 2 conditions are met: there is an open area stretching away in front of her, and there is another horse (Trooper) to compete against.

Trooper and Mia have both had the same training. I ride both. Both had their first cantering experiences with me. Both like cantering. But if there is open space in front of her and another horse nearby, then Mia wants to go as fast as possible. Trooper doesn't care. He's the same every ride. Different horses. 

I tried a Waterford with her because I had read it would be harder for her to get a grip on it. Maybe, maybe not. The jury is still out on that, although she seems to prefer it to any other bit I've tried. But the idea that it is "just training", if carried to its logical extreme, would mean every bridle or halter is masking a training problem, since in theory a perfectly trained horse could be ridden with neither halter nor bit.

Some horses are content to do as asked. It doesn't make them slow. Trooper is just as fast as Mia, but he'll slow the moment you settle back. Mia is and always will be a much more independent horse. It makes her fun to ride sometimes, because she wants and needs constant interaction with her rider. She 'talks' to her rider non-stop. But it also makes her a challenge, because she has such strong opinions...:?

Before I got married, we talked to an older couple. They said that after their first child, they were ready to write a book on raising kids. Everything went easy. He was always willing and eager to please. They felt pity for those parents who just didn't know as much about raising kids as they did. Then they had their second kid. Fussing, screaming, constantly challenging them...and suddenly they didn't know as much about raising kids as they thought!

If I only rode Trooper, I'd think I was God's gift to horses. A good horse, fast if asked, controlled in a halter! Darn it, I'm good! But Mia makes me humble, because there is a lot about her that I haven't figured out and just don't understand. She brings 10 times as much intensity to a walk as Trooper brings to a gallop. Every ride is a new ride.

Some horses are a PITA because of poor training or poor riding. But please do not assume that a barely controlled horse on a jump course, barrel race or trail is ALWAYS that way due to poor training or riding, or that every horse can be ridden well in a halter / 2-piece snaffle / 3 piece snaffle / any snaffle...because horses are not all the same. What gets them excited and how they handle that excitement varies. The phrase "hot horse" isn't interchangeable with "fast horse". One is emotional, and the other physical. Some horses are just more likely to give their rider the middle finger salute!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

twp said:


> lol, They are poorly trained.. A horse that is acting like a complete Idiot like that is ridiculous!! I don't care if all of you tell me I'm wrong.. You don't see a Reining horse act that way, when they go through the gate. lol.. Thanks for the Laugh, though.
> 
> lol, I didn't see you say There is a difference between a Psycho/poorly trained Hot horse, and a "Good hot horse".. I'm Literally in TEARS right now.:rofl:
> 
> How bout a horse, that is TRAINED to run, knows they're gonna get to run, and EXPLODES into the arena like a bat out of Hades!! That's not "Control" There is a woman that has been racing barrels for a very long time, and none of her horses Explode when they go through the gate like that.. Sorry, I know Y'all are Professional Horse Trainers, and all, but it's not true. A horse is Taught to Do that, and that's just a Fact.


 How can you compare a reiner with a barrel horse?
Different people may have different techniques but if a horse is enjoying what it does then getting excited about it isnt the same as being out of control. I'm not sure you understand the difference - maybe because you only ever ride very placid dead broke horses - which is fine. My ponies would be dancing about and keen to go but I could still hold them on a really light rein because they knew what they were going to do.
Take a look at these UK gymkhana ponies - at the start Toms pony does look like the sort of horses you have in your mind because it is excited and wanting to go but then see how responsive it is when asked to do its job - and only snaffle bits are allowed - no spurs either but a really fast keen pony that enjoys what it does - you arent going to do this with some ploddy old dobbin no matter how hard you trained it - they are what they are.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV12gCeR2_Q


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## Nixalba (Feb 18, 2009)

I have to agree that some horses just get too ahead of themselves. You will see it in every discipline that involves some sort of speed.

You'll even see some of them kicking out like when they are galloping around in the field. It's exciting! Plain and simple. I don't see eyes bulging, or switching tails. Ears are often on the rider, listening. It's kinda like a dog when he sees his leash "omgomgomgomg, walkwalkwalkwalK! comon! you don't need shoes and coat, letsgoletsgoletsgo!"

If you want to get technical. Yes they are trained to be that way. Pressure and release. The pressure is released when they go fast. The horse learns by release of pressure (his reward) to go fast. So now he knows when he sees the barrels, it's time to get down and dirty. 'My rider has always told me to galloping up to and around them, so I'm just gonna get a head start on it'.

It's on the rider to "finish" this lesson by teaching the horse to WAIT for his cue to gallop. It is to be the rider's decision, not the horse's. But I'm guessing most barrel racers want that extra juice in the engine for time.

This horse falls down, loses it's rider and continues the pattern.




(Yes, it knocked a barrel but pretty sure it was the stirrups flapping around)

Cow-sense.





I think we give horses way LESS credit than they deserve. They are smarter than we think.

On another note. We are way off topic.


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## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

jaydee said:


> How can you compare a reiner with a barrel horse?


I know several horses that were ex reining horses, or that were trained for reining, or that have been to a few reining shows, that have been turned into barrel horses.. how can you ask such a silly question? lol.

Matter of fact, most barrel racers, claim to have trained their horses reining/cutting moves like the Rollback.. Except, I have heard some of them Turn their horses into the fence to teach it, and then call it a "Special barrel racing rollback" :rofl:

Not to be rude, but that is the only part of your comment I read. :hide:


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

twp said:


> I know several horses that were ex reining horses, or that were trained for reining, or that have been to a few reining shows, that have been turned into barrel horses.. how can you ask such a silly question? lol.


 Thats not the same as comparing what one does in the ring with what the other does
My gymkhana ponies also jumped & hunted, one of them did pony club dressage and another competed working hunter
They now when they go in that ring what they are going in there to do.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

You could use a Hackamore... if you didn't want the problem with bit


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## Nixalba (Feb 18, 2009)

You can do an awful lot of damage with a hackamore as well. Mechanical hackamores exert a lot of leverage.

So the saying "any bit in the wrong hands can be severe" can be applied to most hackamores as well.

This horse simply needs retraining and probably some veterinary investigating.


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## twaffle (Dec 22, 2012)

If a horse knows what they are about to do, act up being nearly unmanageable, while doing a specific task, and is perfectly calm, while doing another, wouldn't that be the same thing as bad training? 


As for the Bit.. A mechanical Hack might bee too much, but an s hack, or indian hack might workgood.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

twp said:


> I know several horses that were ex reining horses, or that were trained for reining, or that have been to a few reining shows, that have been turned into barrel horses.. how can you ask such a silly question? lol.
> 
> Matter of fact, most barrel racers, claim to have trained their horses reining/cutting moves like the Rollback.. Except, I have heard some of them Turn their horses into the fence to teach it, and then call it a "Special barrel racing rollback" :rofl:
> 
> Not to be rude, but that is the only part of your comment I read. :hide:


BAHAWAHAHAHAHA! A horse may start out a Reiner and finish a barrel horse......but it's a very rare day when a barrel horse retires from barrels - turns the corner and becomes a Reiner.......by the way, using the fence is not just a barrel racers way of training the roll back.....reiners and cutters do it that way too amd many other ways also....there more than one way to skin a cat.


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## toosexy4myspotz (Oct 7, 2007)

Okay, I didnt read everything and I am sorry if post the same as somebody else but I was having problems with my 4 1/2yo making horrible faces, throwing her head, resisting the bit, dadada....well I Was just using a full cheek copper mouth snaffle and then I went to this wonderful little tack shop (5 hours from me) to buy a JP Korsteel Hunter Dee Ring Snaffle Bit with Copper Link and holy cow!!! I was truely blown away at the difference. She didnt resist the bit at all. Slightest bit of pressure and you got a perfect response. No more head tossing moving her tongue over and under the bit, nother. her mouth was as still as it could possible be. Apparently here in Southwest VA all my tack shops believe that the longer the shanks and they phsyco looking mouth pieces are your easiet way out.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

twp said:


> A hot horse Isn't born that way.. they don't fall out of their mother, and get hot, when they pass a gait, or when they go in a roping box, arena,etc.. They are MADE! It's due to poor training..



twp, if that was the case then there would be no need for "breeding for disposition". Which is as equally as important as breeding for conformation.

Personality (trainability) and conformation is GENETIC.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^Agreed. A lot of the horses I train are bred to be barrel horses and team roping horses. They come to me hot blooded (_not_ bad training as many of them have never been handled) and it is a very hard thing to keep them level headed even in basic training. When you start asking a hot blooded horse to compete in an extreme speed event, then that just supercharges their blood and makes them chargey.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

^^^Exactly, and I know plenty of people who buy cutting, reining and cowhorse "rejects" that may have been a little too hot and turn them into barrel horses or rope horses. A lot of people like them because they usually have good bloodlines, have plenty of cow, speed and athleticism but didn't have quite the mind for the showpen but would work great as a rodeo type horse.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

> lol, They are poorly trained.. A horse that is acting like a complete Idiot like that is ridiculous!! *I don't care if all of you tell me I'm wrong..* You don't see a Reining horse act that way, when they go through the gate. lol.. Thanks for the Laugh, though.
> 
> lol, I didn't see you say There is a difference between a Psycho/poorly trained Hot horse, and a "Good hot horse".. I'm Literally in TEARS right now.
> 
> How bout a horse, that is TRAINED to run, knows they're gonna get to run, and EXPLODES into the arena like a bat out of Hades!! That's not "Control" There is a woman that has been racing barrels for a very long time, and none of her horses Explode when they go through the gate like that.. Sorry, I know Y'all are Professional Horse Trainers, and all, but it's not true. A horse is Taught to Do that, and that's just a Fact.


Oh my. And you are laughing at us?? Wow,

Well I am very glad that you are SO much smarter than all the rest of us, as you seem to have trained and ridden many world champion barrel horses yourself, because clearly we are wrong and you are right and you are the expert. :-?

Yes the horse's are taught to run the pattern and allowed to get excited, but it is not the result of bad training. 




> The horses with the Combination Bits, who were hard to control, that would run in the arena sideways, as soon as the gait opened, were usually the ones that would knock down barrels, because they weren't paying attention.. All they wanted to do was GO! No good training at all. It kills me when they don't put a good stop on their horses, and you see them in the ally way snatching on their face, to get them to stop, lol.. Also lacking training.
> 
> It seems like to me, They run out of juice running their way in the arena, when they could have saved that energy, put it to good use, and get a Better Time.


Again, you are comparing two completely different types of horses here. You are trying to compare the badly trained horses (who need a huge bit to get them in the arena, and then still misbehave because the riders haven't fixed fundamental training issues) to the hot horses at a world caliber level who know their job and are pumped up to do it. There is no comparison. 

Maybe if you'd have taken the time to read and educate yourself, you'd see that this is at least the 3rd time I have made this point, the second of which you just laughed at. (see your quote at the top of this post)



> Matter of fact, *most barrel racers*, claim to have trained their horses reining/cutting moves like the Rollback.. Except,* I have heard* some of them Turn their horses into the fence to teach it, and then call it a "Special barrel racing rollback"
> 
> Not to be rude, but that is the only part of your comment I read.


Maybe you should actually educate yourself before running your mouth about "things you have heard." You sound absolutely ridiculous. A good barrel racing trainer DOES teach their horses rollbacks. And starting by using a fence is the easiest way to train one in the beginning, as done by reiners and cutters too.

So don't say "most barrel racers" do xyz, because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. 

I suspect you are what, 14 years old maybe?? Your level of immaturity is at least there, if not younger. 

I wish you luck because your responses and behavior on this particular thread are not going to get you very far in life, and immaturity and ignorance aren't tolerated well on this forum.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

So *twp* got banned?
What happened?


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

^^^ that's what I was wondering too.


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## HorseGirlie (Mar 27, 2012)

It was her teeth! We got them floated now she is doing much better. She still plays with it if we are just standing. As long as we are doing something she won't play with it. It's like something to do when she is bored!


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## GallopingGuitarist (Jan 8, 2013)

Glad you found the solution to the problem!


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