# Breeding Stud turned Riding horse problems



## horselvr (Apr 5, 2011)

Hello all, I have been trolling the forums looking for answers for weeks now, with nothing directly at my situation. Here it is (might be a bit lengthy)

I have a 6yr old APHA Gelding that I purchased from his original owner on March 1st. He was gelded 2 months ago, previously has been bred his whole life. He was never out with other horses always alone. He was hand bred to boot. So even when he was bred no social interactions  He had been started under saddle last fall and then the previous owner was hurt badly let him sit all winter and cannot finish him so she sold him. He probably is the smartest horse I have ever owned and I have had quite a few over the years. I use to barrel race and team pen but now I am just a trail rider. He picks things up good or bad with in the matter of minutes. He is no dummy and he knows how big he is and strong he is. While working him on the ground I can get this horse to do anything, he responds exceptionally well to all verabal commands. I even managed to teach him to bow in the matter of about an hour. He has trust built in me as we do trust building exercises every time he gets worked. He will engage me if there are no other horses around. I can ride him bare back in the indoor arena and he is moving well off of leg cues. He is very green and didnt know crap when I got him. 

He is still very soft in the body when we are working on the ground, but I step onto his back and ask the same exact things and he fights me. He is not soft in the front, neck, shoulders, back end nothing. Its a complete 360 from what he is on the ground. I dont want to rush him because I know this is a huge transition for him in his life at this point, new home, new owner, new place, new things, hormone issues, etc etc. I just want him to soften up a bit and I cant get him to do it. 

I took him out on a trail ride with a few other well mannered horses two weeks ago and he did well, acted a bit studdish but it was corrected immediately and he understood. This past weekend I took him out with about 20 other people and their horses and holy cow!! I had nothing, I was a passenger along for the ride, and a really scary one to boot!! He was running through the bit (D ring snaffle) raring, being a complete jerk. He was not responding to me at all. Not only was he not soft he was not responsive. I took a step back and looked at things. Maybe he wasnt ready. It seemed as though he reverted right back to his "wild" side. 

My questions are this:

How do you think the lack of socialization plays a role in this if any?
Is there something more I can be doing with my ground work to lay a better foundation for these kinds of situations? (currently we: lunge, engage shoulders, engage hind end, flexion exercises, backing, driving under bit to learn commands, walking over tarps, desensitizing, just hang out and "play" trick training, etc etc)
Do you think that it could just be the hormones are not out of him yet?
* If so how much longer do you think it will be?
Did he get too late of a start with his riding at 5 yrs old? (I have had 3 yr olds and they were not this bad!!) Is it too little too late for this guy? Because of his past will he not come back around. 


I know people ride studs and stallions everyday so it has to be something I am missing or doing to cause this reaction, I dont think I am an expert rider or trainer but I have been working horses and training barrel horses for a long time. He might as well be a stud at this point because thats the way he is acting, and I have no experience working studs!

My biggest fear at this time is I am going to do something that is going to impact him in a negative manner for the rest of his life. I dont want to break his spirit so to speak but I am not going to let a 1200lb horse push me around and get to the point where he is completely dangerous to me, himself, and others around me!


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## equus717 (Aug 20, 2009)

I have a stallion. To be honest his hormones are not settled. The older they are when gelded the longer it takes for the hormones to reside. I have heard it can be up to 6 months before you really see a difference. That is also the other reason I will not geld my stallion he is 9 now.

Don't take this the wrong way but you need a professional trainer with him. Especially if you have never dealt with a stallion. He is gelded but he still acts just like a stud. IMO you pushed him to hard when you asked him to go ride with 20 other people and their horses. I will bet my money on it that there was a mare in heat. The biggest problem with him is he wasn't handled except for breeding bad, bad, bad in my book. I have taken my stallion out on rides with other people.

Go back to riding in a small group. Please get someone to help you. To be honest he may always act studdish because of his age.


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## horselvr (Apr 5, 2011)

equus717 said:


> I have a stallion. To be honest his hormones are not settled. The older they are when gelded the longer it takes for the hormones to reside. I have heard it can be up to 6 months before you really see a difference. That is also the other reason I will not geld my stallion he is 9 now.
> 
> Don't take this the wrong way but you need a professional trainer with him. Especially if you have never dealt with a stallion. He is gelded but he still acts just like a stud. IMO you pushed him to hard when you asked him to go ride with 20 other people and their horses. I will bet my money on it that there was a mare in heat. The biggest problem with him is he wasn't handled except for breeding bad, bad, bad in my book. I have taken my stallion out on rides with other people.
> 
> Go back to riding in a small group. Please get someone to help you. To be honest he may always act studdish because of his age.


 
I take no offense to needing outside help, I am not too proud to ask for help, thats why I am here. I really appreciate your input. It is a bit depressing to know that he may never change but its the truth and I think maybe I need to accept it. 

Lesson learned with taking him out with so many horses, thats for sure! I dont want him to hurt me, or anyone else which could have easily happened given the situation. 

One question to you, since you have a stallion and you ride him when he acts studdish (if he even does) what do you do with him? I try to bring his attention back to me and the task at hand but have been unsuccessful at this point. 

I wish it were not so but he still is not being properly socialized as he is putting my other horses in danger in the field. He will be fine for a hour or two then he "attacks" the other horses, my poor 3 yr old is missing hide because he was a victim of this. I did not leave them unsupervised so I was able to stop it immediately and seperate them but he was bitten and struck at already. I have had him in a round pen where he can smell the other horses and such in an attempt to socialize him and the results have not changed. I dont disagree that it was a bad decision on the prior owners part to not socialize him at all and unfortunately I cannot change his past. :-(

Thanks for your input, I really appreciate it, I am looking into trainers in my area and might have one to do it if he has time. Rodeo season is just around the corner and I dont know if he will have time to train a horse or work with me and help me so I may have to find someone else.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I agree with Equus. The older they are when gelded the longer it takes for it to "wear off" if it ever will, especially since he was used as a breeding stallion. 

I have 3 stallions myself. I can totally relate to your situation. My youngest was born here, sold as a weanling and I bought him back at 3 when I learned he wasn't in the best situation. He was pretty much stuck in a box stall the entire time they owned him, he never had any socialization nor ate a blade of fresh grass. He was an absolute handful when I got him, very agressive about his space and scared of everything. It's been a year now and we are to the point where he respects me as alpha, is a doll on the ground, went from having to be tranq'd for the farrier to standing ground tied for his feet to be done, and he is now under saddle. I think the one thing that helped him get over being "big dog" was getting turned out with the bossy mares after they were bred (not to him, he has to prove himself first in the show pen and I may still geld him as he's never been bred -he's my avatar picture) It took the mares about 10 minutes to put him in his place and it took me months to establish that with him. I rode him this week with my hubby on one of our mares that was in heat and he did surprisingly well, one squeal, a quick correction and that was it. I have taken it very slow with him. My other 2 studs you would think were geldings until you saw they still had their business. 

As far as correction when they do act studdish (which is very rarely), I do exactly what you said. Get his attention focused back on you, whether it be circles, backing or a quick spanking with a crop. 

I would definitely look into getting help if it's an option. If not, take your time with him and don't rush it, even if that means spending the next 6 months in the round pen or an arena. Hope all goes well for you!


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## Juna (Apr 4, 2010)

He WILL lose his studdishness. We had a breeding Arabian stallion for 12 years before gelding him. After that, (I was 13) he was my riding horse. Granted, this guy was trained and ridden occasionally as a stallion, but his studly, stallion behavior did eventually disappear. Probably took a couple years for him to not "talk" to a mare when he first approached her, though. He's 23 now and just the sweetest, kindest child's lesson horse you could ever have. 

Trust me, 6 years old is not too late. You're gelding needs a lot of socialization skills. Do you have a pasture or paddock with other geldings you can put him out with? With our old guy, he even went in with mares, and yes he tried to mount and breed mares in standing heat the first few times, but he figured out it was hopeless pretty quick and gave it up. :lol:

I think being out with other horses and letting your gelding discover on his own that he IS a gelding will do wonders. And of course, have a trainer who is experienced with stallions work on his training under saddle. Sounds like you're doing great with him on the ground. Good luck!


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## Juna (Apr 4, 2010)

After 12 years as a breeding stallion, this is me and my old guy a few years after gelding. I did _everything_ with him. Rode him everyday for hours. 








This is him and I last year at 22 years old. He's a grand old man!


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## equus717 (Aug 20, 2009)

I wish it were not so but he still is not being properly socialized as he is putting my other horses in danger in the field. He will be fine for a hour or two then he "attacks" the other horses, my poor 3 yr old is missing hide because he was a victim of this. I did not leave them unsupervised so I was able to stop it immediately and seperate them but he was bitten and struck at already. I have had him in a round pen where he can smell the other horses and such in an attempt to socialize him and the results have not changed. I dont disagree that it was a bad decision on the prior owners part to not socialize him at all and unfortunately I cannot change his past. (quote)

Are they geldings? I ask this because of this right here. My stallion will never be able to be turned out with another gelding that is not his own son. He tries to hurt them. We thought that when he was two years old a friend had a gelding and we thought sure he can go in with him needless to say we broke up a fight. 

Is there any mares that you can put him in with. Part of his problem is he does not know the social order of being a horse. There is only one way to learn that and that is with a bossy mare. She will put him in his place and get him used to where he would fall in a normal herd.

What I have done when he would not pay attention to us is my hubby would turn him in a small circle. For us that worked. We didn't fight with him we just put his mind on working. His biggest problem is the fact that he was a breeding stallion. Stallion have to be handled daily. He wasn't which makes things worse. 

I would not let him run with geldings because he goes into stallion mode and is trying to protect his herd from an intruder. He might be able to be turned in with a gelding if and only once he learns his manners. The best for that is with the mares.


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## horselvr (Apr 5, 2011)

@MH Thanks for sharing. 
Juna - you give me hope, but he is still not being socialized because he lays into my gelding so badly. If you saw my poor gelding after just 2 times trying to put them together you would think he was abused because he is so chewed up! 

My aunt has a herd of 6 that includes one gelding the rest are mares. I thought about sending him out to her farm to get some socializiation but I am afraid he will hurt one of her horses. Especially since she has an extremely senior mare. I think the mare is in the nieghborhood of 25+ yrs old and she shows it. He respects fence so thats not a fear its just I dont want him to hurt another horse especially if it is not mine. I will not put him out with my other paint because he is already very timid with gentle horses and is at the bottom of the pack, that is just asking for disaster. 

I am going to continue the ground work and this week thats all we are doing. No riding for the next two weeks then we are going away to another ride but only with 3 other horses. I am going to get with the trainer I know and see what he thinks. He actively shows 3 studs that he also breeds. Its going to cost me an arm and leg but I would rather pay that then have a hospital bill or vet bill in the near future. 

I hope to be able to have other horses around this weekend that I can work him around and try to keep his attention. If I can keep his attention on the ground with them around then it will be a step in the right direction. I need to hold his attention with out increasing the intesity of my posture towards him. Thats my goal. 

One step at a time and if in one month there is no improvement I am afraid I may have to admit defeat and part ways with him. I am not looking for a complete transformation just some improvement of any kind. 

I am liking this place more and more. I should have spoke up long ago =-)


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## horselvr (Apr 5, 2011)

equus717 said:


> I wish it were not so but he still is not being properly socialized as he is putting my other horses in danger in the field. He will be fine for a hour or two then he "attacks" the other horses, my poor 3 yr old is missing hide because he was a victim of this. I did not leave them unsupervised so I was able to stop it immediately and seperate them but he was bitten and struck at already. I have had him in a round pen where he can smell the other horses and such in an attempt to socialize him and the results have not changed. I dont disagree that it was a bad decision on the prior owners part to not socialize him at all and unfortunately I cannot change his past. (quote)
> 
> Are they geldings? I ask this because of this right here. My stallion will never be able to be turned out with another gelding that is not his own son. He tries to hurt them. We thought that when he was two years old a friend had a gelding and we thought sure he can go in with him needless to say we broke up a fight.
> 
> ...


Yes a gelding. Looks like I need to find a bossy mare, we dont deal with mares but my Aunt has 5 maybe I will borrow one of her mares, I have one in mind that is particuarly bossy to people and other horses. She doesnt take anyones crap and she also is no longer a riding horse so I dont fear her getting hurt as much. I still would hate to see her get hurt but the chances would be less considering her personality.


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## equus717 (Aug 20, 2009)

Do you have a stud chain? I don't have to use it all of the time but if my stallion isn't paying attention to me after several tries then I go and put that on him for a few minutes and it works. You may have to use it for a bit but not forever. He will get there it takes time.

You are already doing a great job with him. I hope the trainer will help you. He should I would think. 

Here is a lesson for you walk him with another person and a mare. If he squeals make him move. Circle him once and then walk off like nothing happened if he does it again circle again. Soon he will figure out that if he wants a leisure walk not have to work then he needs to be quiet. Do this every other day on top of what you are doing now if you can. 

You and him will get there. Just don't get discouraged about it and keep going.


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## equus717 (Aug 20, 2009)

I would ask your aunt if you can borrow her for a bit. It won't take long at all. If you are able to do it watch them. Let them sort things out it may mean your gelding being kicked at but as long as it doesn't go into a full blown fight leave them to let it sort it out. He needs that part of it is he doesn't respect other horses. He needs to learn that as well.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I have a horse that was gelded a month before I picked him up and he was almost 4. He was a very bad stallion i.e. too many hormones and started attacking people. So it did take some time to re-establish a proper relationship. It took about a year of consistent handling. I would not use any kind of chain on him that will just build resentment and possibly make him more dangerous - a rope halter is sufficient. I agree with the turnout and it is better for him to be turned out and socialized with lots of horses if possible. In the meantime you need to consider his mood and the time of year. It's Spring right now and the mares are all going into heat and of course he's going to know that.


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## horselvr (Apr 5, 2011)

equus717 said:


> I would ask your aunt if you can borrow her for a bit. It won't take long at all. If you are able to do it watch them. Let them sort things out it may mean your gelding being kicked at but as long as it doesn't go into a full blown fight leave them to let it sort it out. He needs that part of it is he doesn't respect other horses. He needs to learn that as well.


 
She doesnt have shoes on so getting kicked would not hurt him that bad. Besides that he still thinks he is a stud so he feels the only pain he feels is when his feelings get hurt :lol:

I would not leave them unattended no way not after the way he has been acting toward my gelding. I would be afraid of what I would come back to!!


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## equus717 (Aug 20, 2009)

horselvr said:


> She doesnt have shoes on so getting kicked would not hurt him that bad. Besides that he still thinks he is a stud so he feels the only pain he feels is when his feelings get hurt :lol:
> 
> I would not leave them unattended no way not after the way he has been acting toward my gelding. I would be afraid of what I would come back to!!


Awesome. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Truthfully, if he is having most of his issues under saddle, then that's where he needs the most work. Contrary to popular belief, groundwork won't solve all under saddle problems. The only way to get them broke to ride is to ride them, a _lot_. Miles and miles and wet saddle pads every day would do that horse a world of good.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

smrobs said:


> Contrary to popular belief, groundwork won't solve all under saddle problems. The only way to get them broke to ride is to ride them, a _lot_. Miles and miles and wet saddle pads every day would do that horse a world of good.


This is contrary to popular belief.... really.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

There you go with that snarky attitude again :roll:.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_Could you put up corral panels inside the pasture with the other horses, so that he is getting somewhat socialized, but not able to hurt the other horses? It would be a pain in the butt to have him in there, but it would help._

_I agree with smrobs as well with just getting more miles on him. _


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## candandy49 (Jan 16, 2011)

smrobs said:


> Truthfully, if he is having most of his issues under saddle, then that's where he needs the most work. Contrary to popular belief, groundwork won't solve all under saddle problems. The only way to get them broke to ride is to ride them, a _lot_. Miles and miles and wet saddle pads every day would do that horse a world of good.


I agree with smrobs. The reason being since your horse behaves well on the ground and you can ride him bareback in an arena the next step would be to put those "miles and miles and wet, sweaty saddle pads" on him. What mouth piece does your D-ring snaffle have on it? Just a suggestion, but you might consider switching to a side-pull headstall with an o-ring snaffle. Your horse "runs through the D-ring snaffle", because he can. For arena work the D-ring is a good choice, but for some horses the side-pull w/snaffle gives the rider a little more to work with for control. Plus, the side-pull is not a severe form of control.

Keep us updated on how it goes....


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## horselvr (Apr 5, 2011)

smrobs said:


> Truthfully, if he is having most of his issues under saddle, then that's where he needs the most work. Contrary to popular belief, groundwork won't solve all under saddle problems. The only way to get them broke to ride is to ride them, a _lot_. Miles and miles and wet saddle pads every day would do that horse a world of good.


This is also my Dads opinion. That i need to put miles on him. I want to put miles on him trust me, I love to ride and we go on 6+ hour rides typically which the last one was almost 4 hours and he didnt even break a sweat. It was pretty easy trails overall not a lot of hills and not a lot of rough terrain. I dont mind riding a rough horse I have done it a lot especially with my barrel horses, I just dont like having NO control. That is a scary position to be in. I am afraid with the lack of control and him not realizing he is not a stud if he were try to mount a mare or something I would have no way to stop him. 



VelvetsAB said:


> _Could you put up corral panels inside the pasture with the other horses, so that he is getting somewhat socialized, but not able to hurt the other horses? It would be a pain in the butt to have him in there, but it would help._
> 
> _I agree with smrobs as well with just getting more miles on him. _


We have the corral up next to the pasture where he can touch noses with the other horses, he calls to them, they come over and then he strikes out. So they mosey away. I have never done it but what do you * and the others * think about tying him in the pasture on a patience pole? I would not leave him unattended but that way I am sure he cannot get to the other horses they can come smell him and be around but he cant hurt them really. We have a a telephone pole in the middle of one of the pastures we use for young horses to learn "patience" there are no wires or anything on it, we put it there so when we are teaching our young ones to stand tied they dont get hurt. They can't rare up and puncture themselves and there is nothing to get caught on if they throw them selves down. It was just a thought...



candandy49 said:


> I agree with smrobs. The reason being since your horse behaves well on the ground and you can ride him bareback in an arena the next step would be to put those "miles and miles and wet, sweaty saddle pads" on him. What mouth piece does your D-ring snaffle have on it? Just a suggestion, but you might consider switching to a side-pull headstall with an o-ring snaffle. Your horse "runs through the D-ring snaffle", because he can. For arena work the D-ring is a good choice, but for some horses the side-pull w/snaffle gives the rider a little more to work with for control. Plus, the side-pull is not a severe form of control.
> 
> Keep us updated on how it goes....


Just a regular old copper snaffle. I didnt want to put an O ring on him because in my experience they pinch horses. I dont want to give him a bad experience as he is just learning to take a bit. We worked for weeks up to taking the bit and he does but he is still not comfortable in it. (you know, started by putting the lead rope in and out of his mouth before I asked him to take a bit) I tried a snaffle with longer shanks but he was chewing on the shanks so I didnt want him to be able to "grab" the bit out of my hand. I might look into a side pull this weekend... 

I am still waiting for the trainer to get back to me to see if he can help me...


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I also agree with lots of wet saddle pads. As far as no control, has he been taught a one rein stop? If not, I would spend some time working on that so you have that tool in your belt if you need it. 

I have a pole of knowledge in my pasture as well. I wouldn't leave one tied for my herd to visit, but I have some very bossy alpha broodmares that would certainly take opportunity to rail on a gelding. If it could be a controlled situation where you could back the others off if need be, i would consider it. If you lived by me, I'd let you turn him out with my bossy butt mares...they keep all of our studs in check! My oldest & most alpha mare just has to look at them cross eyed and they turn into big wimps. 

The sidepull is also a great idea. I use a half-breed w/a rawhide noseband & snaffle on a lot of mine, especially youngsters who try to run through a bit. You get the benefit of nose pressure as well as the handling of a bit, without worry of hardening a mouth.


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## horselvr (Apr 5, 2011)

Just so you can see some of what I am working with here is a video of my dad lunging him, I cannot video and do it so Dad stepped in to lunge him, he is under our training saddle and the stirrups are tied up so they are not slapping him in the sides. Although you cannot see it because I am stepping back when he stops on his own my Dad is not hitting him with the whip but smaking the ground asking him to move out. 

101_0998.mp4 video by laceyroo1471 - Photobucket

Here is a pic of him taking a bow 










Then a pic from atop him riding bare back trying out a new bit (that didnt work out by the way lol)









Then just hanging out...


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## candandy49 (Jan 16, 2011)

I appreciate your hesitance to use an o-ring snaffle. I have seen what your saying about the o-ring snaffles causing pinching. In those instances I have seen the pinching caused by improper fitting bits usually with a to short a bit from ring to ring for the horse's mouth. Both English and Western bits come in 4-1/2 inch up to 5+ inch widths. Even tho the side-pull itself may help you and your horse a lot you might investigate the various widths of snaffle bits. Trust me, I am not questioning your being able to bit your horse, but just offering up suggestions.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I think I might need to clarify about putting miles on him. I don't mean on a nice leisurely trail ride where it is mostly walk and a little bit of trot and lope. I mean that everywhere you go is at a long trot or a lope. He should be sucking air pretty hard long before you get done. I also wouldn't even attempt riding with more than 1 or 2 people until you really get some handle on him mainly because it is too dangerous for the other riders. That's one of the reasons why it is so hard to find someone to ride with me, normally I will lope for a mile or more and then slow down to a long trot while they get a bit of air back, then back up to a lope we go and I keep that up for up to 5 or more miles, depending on the horse.

It's amazing how quickly they forget about acting stupid when they are focusing on trying to get enough oxygen.


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## horselvr (Apr 5, 2011)

candandy49 said:


> I appreciate your hesitance to use an o-ring snaffle. I have seen what your saying about the o-ring snaffles causing pinching. In those instances I have seen the pinching caused by improper fitting bits usually with a to short a bit from ring to ring for the horse's mouth. Both English and Western bits come in 4-1/2 inch up to 5+ inch widths. Even tho the side-pull itself may help you and your horse a lot you might investigate the various widths of snaffle bits. Trust me, I am not questioning your being able to bit your horse, but just offering up suggestions.


Not taking offense at all, suggestions welcome and appreciated. Just sharing my personal experience 



smrobs said:


> I think I might need to clarify about putting miles on him. I don't mean on a nice leisurely trail ride where it is mostly walk and a little bit of trot and lope. I mean that everywhere you go is at a long trot or a lope. He should be sucking air pretty hard long before you get done. I also wouldn't even attempt riding with more than 1 or 2 people until you really get some handle on him mainly because it is too dangerous for the other riders. That's one of the reasons why it is so hard to find someone to ride with me, normally I will lope for a mile or more and then slow down to a long trot while they get a bit of air back, then back up to a lope we go and I keep that up for up to 5 or more miles, depending on the horse.
> 
> It's amazing how quickly they forget about acting stupid when they are focusing on trying to get enough oxygen.


This is a new train of thought for me, I have always (maybe because I tried to keep barrel horse from turning into hot messes) been the type to ride at a walk or slow trot. I have always had the mind perception that you can always speed a horse up its slowing them down that can be the problem. :shock: Now when I work in the arena I will trot and lope around just to get the same movement off my legs at those paces as I do when they are at a walk, reinforce the WHOA! Work on sliding stops etc etc. I havent done so outside of the arena. I am going to try this, since he is not going to be a barrel horse and I dont fear him getting too hot its something I never even considered. I just took a peak at your blog and I was on an older post about letting a horse yeild to pressure of the reins on their own. WHAT AN EXCELLENT IDEA!! I am going to do this tonight. Just to try and get him to soften up a bit. I am still healing from torn muscles in my shoulder and back from getting dumped two times in one day (the infamous week 3 training where they dont wanna and buck) So I am taking it a little easier than normal but I am still going to work him as much as physically possible.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I can certainly understand where you are coming from and that is a solid practice to only work on slow things when you have a horse that is already hot. However, lots of loping and trotting won't make a _young_ horse hot. It's the sprinting and whipping and harsh handling of spurs and bits that make most barrel horses hot and the constant running flat out that makes other horses hot.


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## candandy49 (Jan 16, 2011)

In the post with your pictures of you bareback on your guy and the bit you found that didn't work for you or him I can give some info on that bit. It is of the Tom Thumb type and is/can be a very severe bit with it's short straight shanks and short purchase( the length from mouth piece to bridle cheek rings) even though it might have a broken/jointed mouth piece. It is literally one of the "nutcracker bits". It is sometimes used with a chain curb strap instead of the leather curb strap in your picture. For a milder curb bit try a reining horse bit with curved shanks. There is much less leverage with curved shanks.


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## horselvr (Apr 5, 2011)

YEAHHHHHH The person I wanted to work with my boy has contacted me back and agreed to train him for a month and see where we are at after that. If needed we will continue after a month too. I am relieved. Now just to find a horse to borrower for next weekends ride at Salt Fork State Park in OH!!

As far as the bit, I was running through my arsenal at that point. That was an old barrel racing bit I used to pick horses up off a barrel when they were blowing barrels. I wanted to just try it. I think we tried about 5 bits, a bossal, a slide hack, and a mechanical hack (which resulted in bucking) just to see where he was comfortable AND I had some sort of control. 

But the good, I have a professional trainer that has studs of his own that he professionally shows so he has experience with these types of situation. 

~SIGH~ I feel this huge sense of relief. I thank everyone here and there input as I will still be working him too with the direction of the trainer at the barn. Your thoughts and help will be rining in my ears! Thanks soooo much!!


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## horselvr (Apr 5, 2011)

UPDATE: Trainer has been working the boy for a week now... AND......

wait for it... 
wait for it...

He is getting WORSE!! The trainer has not even been riding with any other horses just working him by himself. The mares that are on the farm are bred already (well not sure if they took since they were just bred with in the last month) So there are not even any mares in heat that he could be smelling. My heart is breaking. I am hoping that maybe this is just his last ditch effort to not be a riding horse and he will turn around. I really dont want to sell him because I was hoping that I would have him for the rest of his life and make him a "hubby" horse in a few years once I start my barrel horse. I almost want to cry. The trainer is not giving up and is now going to ride 5 days on him instead of 4. I love everything about this horse. His confirmation is to die for, he is a dream to be around on the ground, he is super smart, perfect size, has potential out the bum, he is a looker, did I mention smart??

Those of you with studs and experiences with studs does it get worse before it gets better sometimes? It seems like he is taking 20 steps back! He was a nightmare last night. It was horrible, I did not get involved, just watched for a bit until I could not stand there any longer and had to walk away. I had tears in my eyes walking out of the barn. It seems like as soon as the trainer is putting a leg over he does a 360 and everything he just did on the ground is forgotten. He was working fine on the ground, lunging, backing, side stepping, engaging the hind quarters yeilding to pressure... UGH so disappointed right now....


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## horselvr (Apr 5, 2011)

Oh and just to let everyone know, his teeth were floated in Feb, the farrier said feet are fine and in good condition, the vet was out the weekend he dumped me and checked to make sure there were no problems with him and says he looks to be in great shape with no apparent health, soundness, or tenderness issues anywher. (Vet was there gelding another stud at the barn watched me get dumped so he felt bad for me)


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I can't say for studs, but I can say that sometimes green horses do get worse before they get better. Sometimes, they will go through a sort of sullen stage where they just don't seem to be getting any softer and sometimes they go through a hyper-reactive stage where they magnify every cue that you give them times 100. Sometimes, the horse that has been standing great for mounting and dismounting will suddenly start avoiding you when you try to mount and shying sideways when you go to get off and hundreds of other little things that just seem to appear out of nowhere.

Short answer, yes, sometimes green horses get much worse before they get better. You just have to ride them through it and the vast majority of them _do_ get better. I don't know what it is about going into that second week, maybe it's just that they are sore all over? I'm not sure, but that is usually when I start to have problems too. Just keep plugging away and 99% of them do get better with consistent work.

What does the trainer say about his behavior deterioration? Is it something that he/she thinks he will come out of or are they at a loss as well?


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

IN MY OPINION - My guess would be he's good for you in the arena because there's nothing to distract him. When there are distractions, he cannot focus because he's never learned how or that he even has to. Personally, I would ask your trainer to turn him out with those bred mares and let them teach him manners. A band of open mares won't teach him, but a band of bred broodmares will. The ranch next to us used to take the stallions out of the herds after the mares were bred because the mares were down right mean towards them. When the season was over, outside mares went home, ranch mares were moved to the horse barn and the stallions were moved to the cattle barn to work right along side the geldings. They overwintered the geldings and the stallions together with no problem. With no mares to fight over, in neutral "cattle territory" and everyone working, there just wasn't any fighting. I thought long and hard before I posted this because of the way this forum is, but they never had any more problems with it than you would putting any other horses together. Sometimes they even acted like they enjoyed reuniting with old buddies. I'm not saying that you should do this, I'm just illustrating how different things can be done and how stallions don't always HAVE to be isolated.


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## StormvaleQHStud (Dec 16, 2010)

I am sorry but I feel I must say that not all stallions once gelded, will lose their stallion traits. One particular brumby stallion was gelded at 7 and he never lost his. He switched one day and literally tried to kill his owner off of a mountain. She got him put to sleep. She didn't want to risk somebody buying him and dying because of her animal. 

My little fella is getting well socialized. I do understand that your gelding wasn't handled when he was used as a stud and obviously it definitely shows. A younger horse is always at the bottom of the pecking order and it takes a fair while for them to work their way up because of age. The best thing for him before I got him when he would get nippy and rude was to be put in with his mother for a couple days which sorted him right out. As soon as he got to my place he was handled to some extent until he was well settled in. In the meantime he was put in with my alpha mare and she would always put him in his place in a matter of seconds. Of course now his testosterone has sky rocketed (he is a 18mo QH colt) he cannot be put in with her until his breed exam lol as I cannot risk him settling her until breeding season and the qh association has it's IBF paid lol!

When I first got him he was an absolute horror and there were days when I would have to find something to finish his training sessions on a good note before running inside and crying. Literally. His previous owners had a very different approach with training and respect. They used to hit him everytime he would nip. It posses him off severely. He would sneak in such horrible bites and dart away even with close watch on him. I let him settle in and got to work. Sent him away everytime he nipped. Made him focus on me and ask him back in and 5 months from then to now and he is already improving. 

Do not give up hope I know it is hard. Another thing that comes to mind is (I say most because there are probably some that differ) most stallions have one handler they get along with and that trains him. My little fella had to get used to me but will not tolerate my husband or other people without huge testing of them. Everytime they handle him. So it is me that handles him. Make no mistake he is socialized and respectful of people. Or at least on his way. I won't pick at him but only disapline him when nessecary and as soon as he is told off the action that got him disappoints is forgiven and we move on to what we were doing before he started. He is my first stallion but I have trained horses for years. I have done my research and read up on absolutely everything i could find on them so far but will always look out for more. 

My fella can be kept with geldings or his mares. Any other mares on the property are kept away from him unless to be hand bred but he will be paddock breeding his girls. But that is all well and good when they are young to socialize but I feel for you because it's frustrating enuf wiu a young one than with one that is unsocial and gelded now afer such a long time of being a stud. 

Maybe he is used to being handled by his previous handler as well so that may add to the equation. I will stop here lol I cannot seem to scroll up to read things you have said. Stupid phones and mobile forum haha. Good luck though. And I will be subscribing to this one keep us updated that's for sure. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## horselvr (Apr 5, 2011)

Well, the trainer says he is subborn and hard headed. That he is back to bucking again when he doesnt want to do something. My Dad feels the way stormvale does that he will never not realize he is a stud and he will act this way for the rest of his life. My dad thinks he could be a riding horse but would be better suited for a man that can handle him and is not going to be so "soft" with him. He needs good boundaries and I am a little bit to soft handed for him. So I am going to let the trainer finish what he is doing and see where we are at. If nothing else I will have 30 days training on him to help me sell him. As much as I dont want to sell him I cant afford to have 4 horses right now.. I really appreciate everyones advice and opinions. It is depressing but I have to remember admiting defeat is better than being hurt physically.


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## jwells84 (Mar 29, 2011)

I'm sorry you're having such trouble with your horse. I've seen/heard of people handling a buckers several ways.(granted i know this isn't his only problem) To start off with. go back and check his ground work, make sure he does everything nearly perfect. then instead of getting on, Ground Drive him, then when he wants to throw a fit you can reprimand him,without as much risk of getting hurt. Also when you lunge him,let the stirrups down. if he bucks, let him buck, and keep pushing him fwd, when he stops bucking then stop lunging. he'll figure out that bucking means work, and stop (at least while lunging) and you can build on that. If he starts bucking only while someone is on. I'd try and give him a reason to buck, get off him and lunge him, get an extra long line and run it behind him,most horse will buck if they are buckers. I'd let him buck and buck and buck till he got tired and quit or just gave in and quit. then (if it was me) i'd get on very carefully and walk him around,keep him calm,,go slow! if he behaved(no bucking) then get off and be done for the day. and try again tomorrow. If all else fails find someone who knows how to ride and stay on buckers, and have then ride him till he stops bucking,some horses have to learn the hard way. If you can get him to completely respect you or who ever is riding him,there shouldnt' be any major problems. I say major problems because anyone who's had horses knows problems come with the territory. as far as his socializing, i agree with the others put him out with a dominant mare, she'll put him in his place. hope this helps some.


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## horselvr (Apr 5, 2011)

****update****

I figured I would post here too for those that wanted an update. I took my boy out this weekend on a 3 day ride. Thankfully he did ok. He was a handful the first day for about 30 minutes then settled in and calmed down. He has come a long way since first time out over a month ago. He was a lot of fun to ride once he calmed down and got his mind back on the task at hand, he was fearless and went through everything. I am happy to say that the trainer has helped. I am still undecided on what to do with him. I still may sell him because he will never be the kind of horse that can go a week or two with out being rode and be just like he was. But I am happy with his progress and will see in the near future what I want to do with him...


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## horselvr (Apr 5, 2011)

Well after much debate, I am admitting defeat and that I am not an experienced enough rider to have this horse. He is listed for sale and I am interviewing the people that call. I am being as honest as I can about him and hope to find him a loving home that will better suit his needs. It is a shame because I really thought this was going to be a horse i could have for the next 10+yrs and do all the gaming / cowing / trail riding I wanted but I dont want to end up hurt or ruine him so I am parting my ways. I really appreciate all the input and advice everyone has given me and I will let you know when he finds his new home....


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## equus717 (Aug 20, 2009)

So sorry horselvr. But you are making the right decision for you and him. It is sometimes harder to start them when they are older like that. You will find you a great horse.


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## horselvr (Apr 5, 2011)

I am sad, but glad that I am able to admit defeat, after riding horses and training barrel horses for 20+ years it is hard to admit defeat like this but I dont want to completely ruine him. The trainer thinks I am too soft with him and he is probably right. I don't baby a horse but I am the type that will let get away with things occasionally and he just can't have that or he takes that inch and makes it a mile...


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

horselvr said:


> Well after much debate, I am admitting defeat and that I am not an experienced enough rider to have this horse. He is listed for sale and I am interviewing the people that call. I am being as honest as I can about him and hope to find him a loving home that will better suit his needs. It is a shame because I really thought this was going to be a horse i could have for the next 10+yrs and do all the gaming / cowing / trail riding I wanted but I dont want to end up hurt or ruine him so I am parting my ways. I really appreciate all the input and advice everyone has given me and I will let you know when he finds his new home....


You are probably doing the right thing for you.

I would have put him in with a herd of pregnant mares. There is nothing more aggressive in teaching your stallion ( or gelding thinking he is one, or one that was and isn't anymore) about manners than a group of protective mares. Even the herd stud is wary.

They will attack en mass and no stud...potential or not, is above their wrath when they see a fellow horse interacting badly with them.

However if you show any sign of being cautious or afraid then they( studs in general) will "take over" and you need to know your limits.


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## horselvr (Apr 5, 2011)

Thanks Spyder... The mares at the barn are not mine and they do not feel comfortable with him out there with them, not to mention now I am selling and I dont want to have him injured either. So he will be all alone out there where he can see them but cannot get to them. I hope to find him a home with someone who has experience working with studs that will appreciate him for all he is. He really does have the potential to make someone a great horse but like you said he has shaken me a few times which makes me leary of him now. I dont mind getting thrown its not the first time and I am sure it will not be the last but its his other mannerism's and how it almost seems like he will intentionally hurt me if I let him. I dont like not being able to trust my horse. He has to know I dont trust him too, which i think has caused him to not trust me as well....


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## horselvr (Apr 5, 2011)

*Update*

Well I dont know what has happened but all the sudden my horse is normal. The trainer has been working him once a week and I have not rode him since the middle of May. I got on him to take video of him being rode so I could post video to his ad's and like magic he was normal. Not out of control and I took him out on a 2 hour ride with a mare and he was awesome! I think he knows I was trying to sell him and he is messing with me..... I don't get it... like someone turned a switch in his head. I was riding with a horse that anyone can ride and will go anywhere, he was better than her!! She would not go a few places so I asked him to and he went, we went past other horses in the pasture and he didnt even blink. Could this be? Is he really going to turn around? I may take him off the market.....





 

Opinions? Is he just messing with me?


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Great news that he has made such a turn around for you!

My gelding Claymore was also gelded at 6, right before my purchase of him, and was used as a breeding stallion up until that point. He was primarily pasture bred so didn't lack the social skills and was respectful of mares, thankfully. But I did have some issues with him being very hard and non responsive initially. A book of exercises I found very helpful with him was this one:

Amazon.com: Lessons in Lightness: The Art of Educating the Horse (9781599210711): Mark Russell, Andrea W. Steele, Bettina Drummond: Books

I'm now 2 years in with Claymore, and can comfortably put beginners on him. He will always be a dominant-natured horse I have to be firm with, but as long as I keep on top of him he is very reliable. He does act somewhat aggressive with other geldings in the pasture, but only to a point of asserting his dominance, once they back down he doesn't bother them.

I think when you are talking about a horse that was not only gelded late, but was actively used for breeding, there is more involved than just waiting for the hormones to clear the system. It takes a while, but you can get there. I would say from the video it certainly looks like he has come a long ways and will turn into a nice gelding.


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## jwells84 (Mar 29, 2011)

that is so great! Im happy for you. Maybe he just needed a little time off with out soo much pressure.


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