# Galloping & One Rein Stop



## IndianGirl (Jan 6, 2010)

Thats how i have to stop my new mare. I just have to be sure to keep her soft, im constantly having her give her head both ways. If theres enough room when i go to stop ill lope a larger circle and gradually keep smaller as she slows.


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## Ne0n Zero (Dec 25, 2008)

IndianGirl said:


> Thats how i have to stop my new mare. I just have to be sure to keep her soft, im constantly having her give her head both ways. If theres enough room when i go to stop ill lope a larger circle and gradually keep smaller as she slows.


****.. usually I'm riding down the side of a road. Beau likes chasing cars.. x_x so there usually isn't room for any type of large circle.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Don't gallop.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Call me chicken or whatever but I will not ride a horse I can not control and I mean in every situation.. If I had a run away I wouldn't be worrying about a one rein stop. I want a stop now, both reins and if I couldn't get it I would bit the horse until I could.
Riding a horse that can run through you is stupid and dangerous.
Why is everyone against biting a horse that runs???
I don't know the bit you use but I assume it is a snaffle??
If so borrow a western curb with a curb chain and give it a try.
A bit doesn't make a hard mouthed horse, the rider does.
Ride with a bigger bit and soft hands and the horse will become lighter because of it.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Using a bigger and harsher bit isn't going to solve anything. It's a quick fix and it's just using force, not communication and foundation work.

I wouldn't do a one rein stop at a gallop. You need to spiral him down, go on a circle and gradually make it smaller until he's slow enough where you can execute the one rein stop.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Honeysuga is right as is Rio (but up to a point). If you have no control over all your horse's gaits, you shouldn't be riding at that gait. There is a hole in your horse's training and, perhaps, yours. 

One rein stop is a "must have" tool but it is there for emergencies not for everyday riding. It's taught at a w/t/c first so that you and your horse know how to accomplish it without getting your horse off balance.

Gimmicks and harsh bits are for "riders" who are too lazy or inexperienced enough to train a horse properly - not to say that you are either. What is needed is education - nothing more. In the meanwhile, don't gallop your horse.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> Using a bigger and harsher bit isn't going to solve anything. It's a quick fix and it's just using force, not communication and foundation work.
> 
> .


 
Who cares how it is done as long as the horse learns who is master. As for a quick fix? What is wrong with that. I have broken a few run aways for people ready to send them to the meat market. I do the quick fix with the curb bit and the people end up keeping the horse??
Who cares again about communication when the horse is running away with you? The only communication I want is a dead stop NOW.

Problems are caused by people with an attidute of reasoning with a horse instead of saying "this is the way it is going to be so get use to it"

I ride with gentle people, I see them in all the boarding barns and I see problems created by these people and when it reaches a boiling point people like me are called in and we fix it and being gentle all the time, reasoning all the time is not going to do it.
Going back to fundimentals at a time of stress is not doing ****.
Pick a bigger more aggressive bit and when the horse runs, yell WHOA, brace yourself and let him have it with all you got.
He will learn quickly that he can not run through you and the word WHOA means something.
To be soft first you have to be hard.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I'll bet you can ride as fast as he can run so wait to ask him to stop untill it becomes his idea. When you have to use your leg or spur to keep him moving at a gallop then he is ready to think about stopping. Don't ask untill he's ready.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

iridehorses said:


> Honeysuga is right as is Rio (but up to a point). If you have no control over all your horse's gaits, you shouldn't be riding at that gait. There is a hole in your horse's training and, perhaps, yours.
> 
> One rein stop is a "must have" tool but it is there for emergencies not for everyday riding. It's taught at a w/t/c first so that you and your horse know how to accomplish it without getting your horse off balance.
> 
> Gimmicks and harsh bits are for "riders" who are too lazy or inexperienced enough to train a horse properly - not to say that you are either. What is needed is education - nothing more. In the meanwhile, don't gallop your horse.


 
You should have control no mater what the gait. If the horse spooks and suddenly takes off running you need to be able to stop him.
One Rein stops are useless in alot of situations, narrow trails, close to fence, speed, unbalancing etc etc make one rein stop stupid.
I never train or consider training it.. Stop the horse properly instead of another gimmic
Lazy?? Alot of poor riders, poor seat, no strength need the advantage that a curb can give them. We are dealing with a 1000 pound plus horse with riders in the low 120 range. They need an advantage that a bit can give them.
A horse that doesn't respect the bit, respect the rider is a hard horse.
I posted on the Gentlemans horse> You don't get them by being lazy or timid.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I'll bet you can ride as fast as he can run so wait to ask him to stop untill it becomes his idea. When you have to use your leg or spur to keep him moving at a gallop then he is ready to think about stopping. Don't ask untill he's ready.


]

Kevin if you have a good horse you will probably run out of running room before he runs out of run. I lope long long distances but to cover the same ground at a hard run would terrify me. The footing is a big factor as is suitable trails or fields big enough.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I borrowed this from another post in the equipment section. It is a perfect example of a well set up horse. The rider is light so she has a curb bit. This is an acceptable bit, a good combination, small girl and a good bit. You can find this forum full of horses set up like this and yet most of you condemn the curb?? I approve of setups like this. It will give her more control and thus make the horse actually lighter to the touch. 







[/quote]


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I genneraly ride Quarter horses and out here in the west we have abundant wide open spaces and steep hills. I would also bet that the horse has plenty of brace when he stops at a trot and canter. If you get a better, softer stop at the canter it will transfer to the gallop.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I genneraly ride Quarter horses and out here in the west we have abundant wide open spaces and steep hills. .


I travel at a laid back lope over unknown ground at times keeping a sharp lookout for holes but travelling at a dead run with little control would frighten me. I have gone down too many times, head over heals at a slow pace to want to try that at a good clip.
I also ride arabs and they just don't seem to quit. My GPS was showing over 6 miles at a steady ground eating lope over snow and I decided to see how fast he really was after watching the movie Seabiscut. He is carrrying about 220 pounds, weighs 870 himself, has travelled at a steady lope for 6.8 miles and I ask for speed and he steps it up, again in snow to over 30 mph. It brings tears to your eyes and I quickly eased him back to a safer speed. That little run for a few hundred yards over snow was enough for me.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

You have a great horse N!


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I don't think RiosDad suggestion is completely uncredited. If the horse is well-trained at WTC, how do you train him to gallop without running away with you? A lot of us don't have the pleasure of big open fields to work in. Sometimes rider safety is more important then what some regard as "proper training" in my opinion. I don't think the rider should automatically be labelled as being a bad rider without knowing the situation. Having a confirmed runaway is a dangerous and frustrating habit. Sometimes drastic measures need to be taken. I can understand where RiosDad is coming from seeing as he's HAD the pleasure of having to re-train a runaway that doesn't give a hoot about your training or methods, he's going to **** well run if he pleases!

Obviously it's not the only method that can examined, but if the rider is forced to ride only on the road, then it may be the only method left to examine.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Honeysuga said:


> You have a great horse N!


Thank you Honeysuga but the word "have" is not right.. It should be "You MADE a great horse N"

If it was up to him he would still be a worthless stallion confined to a life of lonelyness. I "made" him what he is.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

RiosDad said:


> Riding a horse that can run through you is stupid and dangerous.


EVERY horse has the potential to run away. They have eyes and ears and process information in their own unique way. If you sit down and think about it - horses are dangerous - period. We do not control them with strength - it's respect and timing of cues.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

mls said:


> EVERY horse has the potential to run away. They have eyes and ears and process information in their own unique way. If you sit down and think about it - horses are dangerous - period. We do not control them with strength - it's respect and timing of cues.


I have been riding for over 50 years and no horse will run through me. Well in the beginning I had them run through me but not in the last 30 years. My seat, my strength, my technic will stop any horse.
That said I have rode run aways for others. Horses that just up and run and you can not get them to stop.
I can think of 2 really bad cases. Both knew how to get away with it. They just ran, wide open, sometimes straight at fences and the owners didn't have a clue how to stop it and both were going to sell.

I took a good western curb bit, one with good long shanks and welded a homemade port in the center, used a good strong tight curb chain and my good 3/4 inch leather reins with a good buckle on their ends. My headstall, my bit, my reins, equipment I would stake my life on.
I got on the horses using MY saddle and took them out into a big field and then kicked them into a dead run. After about 100 yards I leanded back, put my legs forward and yelled WHOA and loud as I could and then hit the horse with everything I had in my back and legs. I just about pulled the horse over backwards but they stopped and shook and I immediately released the reins.
Sure they shake but so be it. I then kick them into another flat out run and after another 100 yards sit back, brace my feet and yell WHOA and pull them just about over backwards, again not giving them a chance to stop on their own, hurting them as much as possible with the pull. They stop, they shake. I release all pressure.
I call for a 3rd run and after another 100 yards , sit back put my legs forward and yell WHOA BUT NO REINS.
They stop, they tremble, I praise them and walk them home.
They won't run again.

Who wins here?? Both horses were not sold and the owners never had a runaway problem again.
How did that harm the horses??? Soar mouth?? I don't care.. From that day on the word WHOA means something and they don't need a repeat of the lesson.

I did a similiar thing to one of my own 2 years ago and he got the lesson without all the running and slamming on. He just knew the minute I took ahold of him.


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## PechosGoldenChance (Aug 23, 2009)

Geez, lol. I don't even know what to say here. I guess what I could say first is that, Riosdad is probably right with the curb bit thing...unless that is the rider is inexperienced and doesn't know how to use a bit that good, than you horse will just get a hard mouth and the curb bit will no longer be of good use anymore, which means you will just have to keep moving up to harsher bits (not quite right in my opinion). But if you are experienced, than yes, the curb bit may be your answer. 

If your horse does not stop at the gallop and just breaks through the bit than, obviously, that means that he doesn't care what you think or want him to do (at that moment). Which than means that you need to do some more training, and possibly a harsher bit such as the curb bit&chain. BUT...If your the type of person who is more on the natural horsemanship side of things, the curb bit will probably seem...not right to you. Which than, in turn, means you need to do more training with them and work on that everyday! 

If it were me in that situation, I would try the curb bit, even though I try to follow that natural horsemanship process, trying different things never hurt right?? lol I was kinda rambling off so if I don't make sense...thats why.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Check out this link.
The horse here Shadow was a bad character. He had been sent out for training by the previous owner with no luck. He continued to buck, to runaway and refused to be broke.
He had 100's of miles under him and still he was almost impossible to mount alone and refused to submit.
This is the day he submitted and never caused a problem again.
This is all I did, a short video taken by someone watching but this was the end of him being a jerk and I wear no spurs or carry a whip. The only thing I have is the curb.. He stayed in this for a few weeks and then dropped to a mild training curb.
Norval

Strider is my old endurance horse


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## 5cuetrain (Dec 11, 2009)

From what I read it sounds like the horse decides to gallop on his own and then chooses not to listen when he is asked to slow down or stop. Both are bad choices for sure.

When a horse gallops his adrenaline is rushing and his heart rate triples to provide the muscles with the oxygen needed by his muscles.

Usually this is the time-high levels of adrenaline-that the horse "forgets" about the rider and starts to choose on his own.

The side of the road is definately not the place to solve the problem. Either one of the both of you will get hurt or worse in that environment. I would suggest that you do not ride on the side of the road until you can solve the problem.

You said that you also ride in an arena--hopefully with good footing and such--and that is the place to work on the problem.

You need to solve the problem--him not listening when his adrenaline gets up--so focus on that instead of the "not stopping" as this is just the symptom of the real problem.

There are lots of ways to accomplish this in the arena. Gain control of his feet when his adrenaline is high and the problem is solved. I wish I could tell you specifically what to do but without working with you and your horse I can't.

Find a good instructor/trainer and let them help you. This will be a lot less expensive than the vet bills and the doctor bills that are waiting for you.


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## PechosGoldenChance (Aug 23, 2009)

Just read you post Riosdad. I have to say that I try not to take things the way you do, such as when you said, you pull with everything you got whether or not it hurts them. But...sometimes when I get really mad, I find myself doing that...I'm glad you brought that up first because I didn't want anyone to 'pound' me for it lol.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Rio, have you looked carefully at the picture you pointed to as being the right setup? Take a careful look. I wouldn't want a horse of mine looking like that.

As for using a curb, I don't see a problem with it and use one on all my horses but I know how to use one. To put one in the hands of someone who doesn't have a clue is irresponsible.

I'm in my 60's, I've been riding over 50 years and training for over 30. Harsh bits only lead to harsher bits without education. If that works for you, all well and good but it isn't my method. I've had trail horses come to me with bolting problems and each and every one has left without the problem and ridden in a snaffle. I like a curb for the finesse I can get with one - not for the "stop" many riders use it for.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

PechosGoldenChance said:


> Just read you post Riosdad. I have to say that I try not to take things the way you do, such as when you said, you pull with everything you got whether or not it hurts them. But...sometimes when I get really mad, I find myself doing that...I'm glad you brought that up first because I didn't want anyone to 'pound' me for it lol.


Sometimes you need to channel your anger into strength, into courage to do what is needed. this horse outweighs you by 10 times, he is probably 20 times stronger then you so you need all the advantage you can find and anger can come to your aid.
I am not angry, I have it worked out before hand, I am not afraid but I use my shoulders, my back my legs and really shut him down hard and fast. The little pain helps him remember in future and honestly it makes them lighter in the end. They remember and they listen to the suttle cue's if IF they experience something harsh after failing to react to the suttle cue.

_ I_ ride extremelly soft, no contact, suttle cue's because BECAUSE the horse knows that following the suttle cue's will be a harsh one.
This is not theory speaking, this is experience.

You can reason all you want with a horse but when the time comes, something spooks him, he feels spring in his blood, whatever it then comes down to who is actually the stronger.. And I don't mean strength. The bond between my horse and me is forged and he listens no matter what.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Where as you are a great confident, strong, rider, N, to the op who quite obviously(no offense) is not, I recommend that you get a trainer to help you out. 

And please do not take your uncontrollable horse near the road! Disaster waiting to happen.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

iridehorses said:


> Rio, have you looked carefully at the picture you pointed to as being the right setup? Take a careful look. I wouldn't want a horse of mine looking like that.
> 
> .


I don't know the girl and only posted the picture showing a little girl, no real strength and a curb bit.
Please do not insult her or her setup.

Insult me if you want but not her.

I personally ride in a snaffle but I have the experience and the strength if needed.
You are going to argue the STRENGTH and most think it is not need, you will use ground work, finess but in the end strength plays a bigger part.
If the horse goes into a buck spree, if the horse rears, if the horse spins and runs, if the horse refuses to go forward. It all boils down to , Do you have a good enough seat to ride anything out, do you have the strength both experience and physical strength to make the horse behave.
I will fight if the horse so chooses, I will not reason.

This post is about what to do to stop the horse while galloping??
I suggest a curb bit with a curb chain.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Honeysuga said:


> Where as you are a great confident, strong, rider, N, to the op who quite obviously(no offense) is not, I recommend that you get a trainer to help you out.
> 
> And please do not take your uncontrollable horse near the road! Disaster waiting to happen.


I assume the OP is not a strong rider thus the use of the curb to increase her strength.
To me a rider using a snaffle and having the horse put his head up high and run is one of the most frightening experience with a horse that you can have.
A running martingale doubles DOUBLES the power of a snaffle and yet does nothing when the horse behaves


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## Juniper (May 4, 2007)

I think that method works for RiosDad because he is experienced. But trying that if you are not can set up some big problems. In my very limited experience I have seen numerous running horses, who have their adrenaline up, start to buck pretty hard if the rider tries to stop them. I have to agree, maybe time for a couple months with a trainer. Although my horse is making great progress I plan to send him to a trainer this winter. It is better than the hospital bill.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

RiosDad said:


> I don't know the girl and only posted the picture showing a little girl, no real strength and a curb bit.
> Please do not insult her or her setup.
> 
> Insult me if you want but not her.


I agree with Iride - you posted the photo and told all of us it was a good setup. We are not insulting the girl - we are disagreeing with your opinion that it's a good set up. Thank you Iride - I wanted to disagree with the opinion also.

Also - a curb bit can become ineffective VERY quickly when the horse grabs the shank.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> I don't know the girl and only posted the picture showing a little girl, no real strength and a curb bit.
> Please do not insult her or her setup.
> 
> Insult me if you want but not her.


The comment was not to insult anyone but to point out a poor choice of a good setup. You still haven't asked or pointed out why it was a bad choice.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Here's my 2 cents for what it's worth. 

The "ideal setup" that RD posted in my eyes is not ideal. Here are my reasons why (and this is my critique, as I would critique anyone with the same photo. I am not taking a dig at the rider or anyone involved with the picture): The saddle is an incorrect fit, and the headstall is adjusted incorrectly so the bit is hanging and probably banging the horse's teeth. 

Now, on to my biggest argument:
If you slap a curb on a horse without the horse ever having carried one before, you run a very very high risk of the horse reacting badly to the bit - rearing out of fear/pain comes to mind first. 
In my opinion, most horses should be able to do everything in a snaffle. If you want to ride in a curb, that's your perogative, but it is, in my opinion, not a schooling bit. The curb is introduced once the horse understands most of its schooling in a snaffle - why? Because you do not have very clear communication direct-reining with a curb bit, the signal gets confused very easily; depending on the mouthpiece you either have no independent side action, or very little, so the action of the curb while in use direct-reining is quite a confusing one. 
A horse that is ready to "step up" to a curb, in my opinion, is a horse that needs little to absolutely no action on the bit anyways - the horse's cues come from the rider's seat and legs primarily, and from the reins, in the form of neck-reining. 
Will a curb be useful in stopping a runaway? Perhaps - if the horse isn't running out of blind panic, and if he's still receptive to bit commands. However, if you're using a curb for the first time on a runaway, you might have an even scarier situation on your hands if things go wrong. I've seen first-hand what happens when a person resorts to a curb on an unschooled horse to get more "whoa." The horse flipped. 
In educated hands a curb can be a lovely thing. In the wrong hands, it can be disasterous.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Not to sound like a broken record but if you have your horse soft at a w/t/c then the horse will not run away. I have seen a lot of runaways and I have never seen one that was soft at the poll and giving vertically. Also there is a lot more to a one-rein stop than just pulling thier face around. You need to be able to yield the hindquarters at the same time. If you can get your horse to break at the poll and yield the front and hindquarters a good potion of the problem can be solved right there because the horse will be used to following your feel and won't get to worked up at the gallop. You can fix the rest by getting a great stop at the walk and trot. When you pick up speed your horse shows you where you left the holes in his training. In this case it's probably a lot of brace in the neck and confusion about how to get stopped.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

DressageIt, 

Thank you so much; I was getting ready to post something very similiar. Saved me some typing. The phrase that keeps sticking in my head about bitting is that you're "putting a razor in a monkey's paw." While they definitely are a useful took in certain hands and certain situations, curb in the hands of an inexperienced rider or with an inexperineced horse can be a very sharp razor indeed.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I would just like to note that I was not the person who I was talking about, nor did I have any involvement in the person whose horse flipped, other than as an observer.


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

> I have been riding for over 50 years and no horse will run through me. Well in the beginning I had them run through me but not in the last 30 years. My seat, my strength, my technic will stop any horse.


Getting cocky there! Unless you weigh 1200 lbs and are of solid muscle, you sir, are not stronger than a horse. I used a trainer once that was a lot like you and figured one day he'd just slap a correction bit in my horses mouth. He got into him pretty hard one day, to which point Cowboy backed, sat his *** into the wall (making quite a lovely hole!), and proceeded to lay down and stay there. The trainer was pretty sore for quite a while after that, and never again tempted such stupidity on a horse that could outwit him when he disapproved of a situation. 

Then again, my horse dislikes men in general, and I have found he's often smarter. He does what I ask, only because he respects me, and I respect him. We're partners, and he's kept me safe in several situations where I otherwise would have been harmed. I've made a lot of stupid decisions on this horse, but I'm still alive and in one piece, only because of the relationship we have, and because he was owned previously by people who used forceful methods such as yourself. I'm purely convinced that he treasures having a leader who isn't all macho. Then again, I'm only 5'5" with a heavy respect for the power and spirit of a horse, needless to say - being macho doesn't work for me.


Alas, I believe KevinsHorses said it best 8) Good luck to the OP.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

PaintsPwn said:


> Then again, my horse dislikes men in general, and I have found he's often smarter. He does what I ask, only because he respects me, and I respect him. We're partners, and he's kept me safe in several situations where I otherwise would have been harmed. I've made a lot of stupid decisions on this horse, but I'm still alive and in one piece, only because of the relationship we have, .


I don't make those stupid decisions that require the horse to save me. My decisions don't require the horse to think but to obey. I can't think of a time when my horse saved me?? I ask difficult things but he knows that by following my commands he can get out of anything I put him into.
Guess it just shows my horses trust my judgement and follows blindly along.
I have know horses that don't like men, horse that I shoe but funny before long they have no problems coming to me in a field. At times I end up handling them better then their female owners.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

PaintsPwn said:


> Getting cocky there! Unless you weigh 1200 lbs and are of solid muscle, you sir, are not stronger than a horse. .


I only buy 3-5 year old stud colts unbroken and usually unhandled. Within the week they are a totally different horse. I don't whip them, I don't beat on them but I do demand that from the moment I unload them from the trailer they begin acting like a finished horse.
No horse has beaten me yet. I too had one go up and over trying to pin me. Hard on the saddle but nothing else. That time I had 1 hour to break and test ride a 7 year old unhandled stallion. One hour and never a bit of training on him before that time. I did ride him around a pasture, unsaddled , said no thank you and left.


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

You can do more than one quote per post.

My mistakes were back when I was super green, but I do think you make some foolish decisions and one day they may back fire on you - you will eventually find that one horse who is going to give you the finger, so to speak, and give you a run for your money. You're not young anymore, and it's gonna mess you up. 

As far as giving that advice on this board that you almost flip a horse over? Gee! I've not heard something that outrageous since someone on another forum suggested punching a horse in the nose with a nail for biting, and when that member suggested chain bits 'weren't really that bad'. Thankfully, I'm pretty sure no one on this forum is going to try that.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)




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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

^^^You couldn't have said it better. At least one ego is fixing to explode.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

Yes, I think this thread is about to blow itself up


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

PaintsPwn said:


> As far as giving that advice on this board that you almost flip a horse over? Jesus! I've not heard something that outrageous since someone on another forum suggested punching a horse in the nose with a nail for biting, and when that member suggested chain bits 'weren't really that bad'. Thankfully, I'm pretty sure no one on this forum is going to try that.


I'm not sure if this is directed at me, as I didn't read all of the replies, and the quote wasn't to clear... but if it was (as I did mention a horse rearing and flipping) .. I've seen more than one horse react poorly to the incorrect introduction of a curb bit. When done improperly, i.e. an inexperienced rider putting a horse in a curb for the first time to try and get a better brake, could result in a horse reacting badly. 
Anyways, I'm rambling.


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## ReiningTrainer (Dec 30, 2009)

Try riding in a round pen no less than 60.' You can do this in an arena as well, but the round pen allows you to not worry about where your horse is going so you can relax better. It also has the effect of sucking the energy out of your horse as he realizes he has no where to go.

Your horse has to learn to control his emotion. This is what a lot of people do not do. They try to keep everything quiet and calm and thus when the horse gets his emotions up he has no idea how to function.

While riding in the pen push your horse to the speed where he STARTS to get emotional. If he cannot stay calm at an extended trot, start there. If he cannot extend the walk without tensing, start there. And remember walk work only makes the walk better, trot work makes the walk and trot better, and lope work makes all gaits better. 

As soon as his head goes up, you feel him tense up or you feel him start to pull on the bit, slow him down. Keep pushing him just to the point he thinks about being scared and back him down. Continue at the slowest gait he has problems and move to the next and continue the process.

You can also find other areas to work on his emotional control such as sacking out, and lots of in hand work. The more places you can push him up and bring him down emotionally the better he will get in all areas.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Excellent advise by ReiningTrainer.


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## Romantic Lyric (Dec 31, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I only buy 3-5 year old stud colts unbroken and usually unhandled. Within the week they are a totally different horse. I don't whip them, I don't beat on them but I do demand that from the moment I unload them from the trailer they begin acting like a finished horse.
> No horse has beaten me yet. I too had one go up and over trying to pin me. Hard on the saddle but nothing else. That time I had 1 hour to break and test ride a 7 year old unhandled stallion. One hour and never a bit of training on him before that time. I did ride him around a pasture, unsaddled , said no thank you and left.


Honestly, if you ONLY buy 3-5 year old unbroken and usually unhandled stud colts it sounds like you get off on danger, on the bragging rights of breaking supposedly unbreakable animals. The fact that you think that your relationships with horses are about winning or being "beaten" is a little twisted. I agree that horses need to see you as the dominant one in the relationship, but I view riding is a partnership, not a dictatorship. 

As for the OP, I agree with a lot of what's been said about working on transitions and softness at the w/t/c. If you get your horse more responsive at the lower gaits, that should translate to the gallop. I've galloped horses before that love to run and lose their head a little when they do. What I do is half halt them until I can feel them start to pay attention, and then really sit back and use the deepness of my seat to signal them that we are going to transition downward (which has the extra added benefit of keeping me onboard if they decide to slam on the brakes) and then ask for my downward transition. 

As for throwing in a curb: I'm probably repeating a lot of what people have been already been saying, but if the horse is properly responsive at the w/t/c with a snaffle, there should be no reason to ride in a curb just because you plan on galloping them.


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## Ne0n Zero (Dec 25, 2008)

Well okay. Let me clear a few things up. It's not that he randomly BOLTS AWAY with me. He would never do that. He never has. That was taken out of context. He is not this dangerous, uncontrollable horse that some of you are making him out to be. He is the most bombproof, deadhead horse I've ever seen on the road. Nothing phases him. Rather, I am saying that when I ASK him to gallop, he does not like to stop. The whole chasing the car thing was a one-time experience. I asked him to trot/canter next to it, and we were not on the pavement. It was 100% my fault. I know this.

RiosDad, I am not going to traumatize my horse by putting a harsh bit in his mouth and then yanking on his face as hard as I can. Sorry, but that's just cruel. He was abused in the past and is already wary enough of it. I want him to accept the bit, not fear it. I also would rather have a horse with its jawbone intact when I am finished.
I have tried a mild curb bit. The first time he felt it (in the arena, where he is quiet) he almost reared up. No thanks. 

He stops on a DIME at the walk and trot, and is nearly there at the canter. Mind you, this is with the subtlest movement of seat and ONE finger. There is no brace. He is very soft at walk/trot. Reading ReiningTrainer's post, I can see where you're coming from and that's honestly the best advice I've read thus far. He does brace at the canter. I will continue working with him there. 

However. The ONLY time I have problems with him is on the road or an open field. He is very soft in the arena, and never gets "out of control" or loses focus in there. Only out in the open.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

Ne0n Zero said:


> Well okay. Let me clear a few things up. It's not that he randomly BOLTS AWAY with me. He would never do that. He never has. That was taken out of context. He is not this dangerous, uncontrollable horse that some of you are making him out to be. He is the most bombproof, deadhead horse I've ever seen on the road. Nothing phases him. Rather, I am saying that when I ASK him to gallop, he does not like to stop. The whole chasing the car thing was a one-time experience. I asked him to trot/canter next to it, and we were not on the pavement. It was 100% my fault. I know this.
> 
> RiosDad, I am not going to traumatize my horse by putting a harsh bit in his mouth and then yanking on his face as hard as I can. Sorry, but that's just cruel. He was abused in the past and is already wary enough of it. I want him to accept the bit, not fear it. I also would rather have a horse with its jawbone intact when I am finished.
> I have tried a mild curb bit. The first time he felt it (in the arena, where he is quiet) he almost reared up. No thanks.
> ...


Is this when you are going toward or away from home? If its when your going toward home then I would suggest when you feel him starting to speed up turn him in the opposite direction for a minute then turn back. I keep Vida at a walkor slow gait (shes gaited)* only* when we are heading for home. We can run away from home but never toward it.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

My first advice still holds. Let him run and when it is his idea to slow down make him go a little more and then ask him to stop. This way you both have the same idea at the same time which is really the goal of riding anyway.


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## Ne0n Zero (Dec 25, 2008)

Vidaloco said:


> Is this when you are going toward or away from home? If its when your going toward home then I would suggest when you feel him starting to speed up turn him in the opposite direction for a minute then turn back. I keep Vida at a walkor slow gait (shes gaited)* only* when we are heading for home. We can run away from home but never toward it.


No, direction most definitely doesn't matter with him. I don't let him run home. When we ride down to the corner store I sometimes let him run in the open fields. I CAN get him to stop before the field ends, just not very easily. I'd say I have to start trying to slow him down after about 3/4 of the field.



kevinshorses said:


> My first advice still holds. Let him run and when it is his idea to slow down make him go a little more and then ask him to stop. This way you both have the same idea at the same time which is really the goal of riding anyway.


If I had the room for that, I would.



RomanticLyric said:


> Honestly, if you ONLY buy 3-5 year old unbroken and usually unhandled stud colts it sounds like you get off on danger, on the bragging rights of breaking supposedly unbreakable animals. The fact that you think that your relationships with horses are about winning or being "beaten" is a little twisted. I agree that horses need to see you as the dominant one in the relationship, but I view riding is a partnership, not a dictatorship.
> 
> As for the OP, I agree with a lot of what's been said about working on transitions and softness at the w/t/c. If you get your horse more responsive at the lower gaits, that should translate to the gallop. I've galloped horses before that love to run and lose their head a little when they do. What I do is half halt them until I can feel them start to pay attention, and then really sit back and use the deepness of my seat to signal them that we are going to transition downward (which has the extra added benefit of keeping me onboard if they decide to slam on the brakes) and then ask for my downward transition.
> 
> As for throwing in a curb: I'm probably repeating a lot of what people have been already been saying, but if the horse is properly responsive at the w/t/c with a snaffle, there should be no reason to ride in a curb just because you plan on galloping them.


Thank you.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Hmmm.. Maybe he's just... "Feelin' his oats"? 

Personally, I'd just practice galloping in the ring or different spot before going on the road. One word, my friend: DANGEROUS


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## Ne0n Zero (Dec 25, 2008)

Sunny06 said:


> Hmmm.. Maybe he's just... "Feelin' his oats"?
> 
> Personally, I'd just practice galloping in the ring or different spot before going on the road. One word, my friend: DANGEROUS


Like I said. He won't gallop in the arena, so that's not really an option.
I should have clarified, the only place we really gallop is in open fields that run next to the road. Never ON the road. We keep that to walk/trot/occasional canter.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

RomanticLyric said:


> Honestly, if you ONLY buy 3-5 year old unbroken and usually unhandled stud colts it sounds like you get off on danger, on the bragging rights of breaking supposedly unbreakable animals.
> .


Honestly from experience I find the 3 4 5 year old stud colts unhandled are honest. They do not sneak up on you and bite. If they want to bite they come straight at you with no sneakiness? They kick , they bite but at least they do it in front of you. The barnyard pet is sneaky, harder to break. 
I get faster better results with the unhandled stud colts then the spoiled rotten sneaky pets.
Alot of trainers prefer the unhandled babies.
I won't look at a mare or a family pet.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Ne0n Zero said:


> RiosDad, I am not going to traumatize my horse by putting a harsh bit in his mouth and then yanking on his face as hard as I can.
> . I also would rather have a horse with its jawbone intact when I am finished.
> I have tried a mild curb bit. The first time he felt it (in the arena, where he is quiet) he almost reared up. No thanks.
> 
> ...


That says alot for your hands. If you tried a curb bit and almost made the horse rear up your hands are too rough.

That said I bet 50% of the riders on this forum ride in curb bits. 
I personally ride in a copper roller D ring snaffle because for me I don't need the added leverage.

A curb is the same as a snaffle with a little multiplier factor.
To compare a curb to a razor blade as someone else did is rediculous.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> ^^^You couldn't have said it better. At least one ego is fixing to explode.


I am disappointed in you Kevin.


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## Ne0n Zero (Dec 25, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> That says alot for your hands. If you tried a curb bit and almost made the horse rear up your hands are too rough.
> 
> That said I bet 50% of the riders on this forum ride in curb bits.
> I personally ride in a copper roller D ring snaffle because for me I don't need the added leverage.
> ...


Excuse me, you are the one who just told me to "bit up my horse" and haul on his face. You just totally contradicted yourself. 
For the record, I barely touched the reins and he felt it and freaked out. Sometimes it really is not the rider.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

PaintsPwn said:


> As far as giving that advice on this board that you almost flip a horse over? Gee! I've not heard something that outrageous since someone on another forum suggested punching a horse in the nose with a nail for biting, and when that member suggested chain bits 'weren't really that bad'. Thankfully, I'm pretty sure no one on this forum is going to try that.


Yes I had a horse go up and over. I was riding bitless in a simple set of side pulls. I only had about an hour to test this horse and decide if I wanted him or not. He was a 7 year old stud unhandled so with the owner's permission I saddled him, put on the side pulls and with him holding _I stepped aboard and he turned him loose. I got my ride and yes he tried going over on me . I got my ride, didn't like him , thanked him and never went back. What is the problem??_
_I may be getting older but I am still in excellent shape and know what I am doing._


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## chika1235 (Jan 1, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Who cares how it is done as long as the horse learns who is master. As for a quick fix? What is wrong with that. I have broken a few run aways for people ready to send them to the meat market. I do the quick fix with the curb bit and the people end up keeping the horse??
> Who cares again about communication when the horse is running away with you? The only communication I want is a dead stop NOW.
> 
> Problems are caused by people with an attidute of reasoning with a horse instead of saying "this is the way it is going to be so get use to it"
> ...


exactly ive had people i ride with dont dicipline there horses or use any force at all because they "dont want to hurt their feelings" or "it may hurt them". your not abusing it because you use force with it.people act like you are but the real abuse comes when the soft people finally give up and send them to the auction where they end up in not so happy lives as before.


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## Ne0n Zero (Dec 25, 2008)

edit: never mind.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Dictatorship or Partnership?? This is not a partnership. He goes where I say at the pace I say. He ties where and when I want him to without making a fuss. He will cross any obsticle I ask of him without fear. If I meet someone on the trail he will stand quietly without trying to sniff them or shuffle his feet. He will remain rooted to the ground until I tell him to move. He will ride alone or in a group without a fuss in any position I say. He will travel quietly in a trailer, unload anyplace I choose and stand quietly by the side of trailer. He will not spook. Hot or cold he moves out without complaint.

For this service I will spend large amounts of money on him. I will see to his health, I will see to his feet, his teeth, his stall will always be clean, he will have the best of hay, the best of grain. He will not stand out in the cold, in the rain. He will have nice pastures to spend his summer days. He will have clean dry blankets for the cold, his coat will always be groomed, his feet picked and his mane and tail groomed. He will have large amounts of apples, pears and carrots.
I will love him, provide for his every need and guarantee a generous retirement.
Who is loosing in this relationship

I will spend a minimum of 1 hour a day with him and any day I am not working I will ride him. We will be friends and he will come at the mear site of me.


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## Ne0n Zero (Dec 25, 2008)

chika1235 said:


> exactly ive had people i ride with dont dicipline there horses or use any force at all because they "dont want to hurt their feelings" or "it may hurt them". your not abusing it because you use force with it.people act like you are but the real abuse comes when the soft people finally give up and send them to the auction where they end up in not so happy lives as before.


There is obviously a difference between using some force and outright abuse. 
Hauling on a horse's face with a harsh bit to the point where it is shaking when you are through is completely unnecessary. I have seen horses jaws snapped in half as a result of this type of handling.
Sorry, I'm not doing that to my horse. You can manhandle your horses all you want and frighten them into doing your bidding but at the end of the day, I'd rather have my horse trust me AND listen. Not go out of fear.

Go ahead and continue telling people to force their horses into obeying. I'm done with this topic. If someone wants to post their opinion on a method in which the horse does not suffer, please go ahead. Other than that, mods feel free to lock this as you see fit.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Ne0n Zero said:


> Excuse me, you are the one who just told me to "bit up my horse" and haul on his face. You just totally contradicted yourself.
> For the record, I barely touched the reins and he felt it and freaked out. Sometimes it really is not the rider.


You say the horse is fine at a walk, trot and canter but if he gallops he runs away?? So with the curb you use it gently at the walk the trot the canter but when he gallops off and you ask him to stop and he keeps right on then haul him down hard and fast. Immediately release him, praise him and try again. You might find that his respect for you goes up when he finds he can not run away with you.
As for breaking his jaw?? I don't think so.


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## Romantic Lyric (Dec 31, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Honestly from experience I find the 3 4 5 year old stud colts unhandled are honest. They do not sneak up on you and bite. If they want to bite they come straight at you with no sneakiness? They kick , they bite but at least they do it in front of you. The barnyard pet is sneaky, harder to break.
> I get faster better results with the unhandled stud colts then the spoiled rotten sneaky pets.
> Alot of trainers prefer the unhandled babies.
> I won't look at a mare or a family pet.


I don't know any trainers (and I know quite a few) who prefer unhandled horses to ones that have been properly taught good ground manners. In fact, that's exactly what trainers look for. The fact that you only buy STUD colts that are 3, 4, 5, or older, says you've got something to prove.

Also why must it be one or the other? The way you put it, a horse is "unhandled" or a "barnyard pet." There are no well-adjusted horses in between these two extremes. That's ridiculous.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Ne0n Zero said:


> There is obviously a difference between using some force and outright abuse.
> Hauling on a horse's face with a harsh bit to the point where it is shaking when you are through is completely unnecessary.
> .


The horse is on his way to the meat market. Is that better then me teaching the horse to do a hard stop and thus the owner keeps him??

I saved 2 run aways and one barn sour horse by fixing the problem. Would they have fared better being sold for meat??

Breaking a jaw?? Get real.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Riosdad For the record I agree with a lot of what you say. I think it's funny that people will spend hours desensitizing thier horse but if they change bits and thier horse doesn't do a happy dance they think the horse can't adjust to wearing it. In all the years of being around horses I have NEVER seen a horses jaw broken with a bit of any kind. 

The comment I found the most interesting is that the horse won't gallop in the arena. If a horse has a hard time going it will often have a hard time stopping. Maybe work on getting the horse freed up to gallop in the arena and he will stop better as well. I wouldn't reccomend just whipping him into a gallop.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

RomanticLyric said:


> I don't know any trainers (and I know quite a few) who prefer unhandled horses to ones that have been properly taught good ground manners. In fact, that's exactly what trainers look for. The fact that you only buy STUD colts that are 3, 4, 5, or older, says you've got something to prove.
> 
> Also why must it be one or the other? The way you put it, a horse is "unhandled" or a "barnyard pet." There are no well-adjusted horses in between these two extremes. That's ridiculous.


Ever heard of Al Dunning. Google him.

I have nothing to prove,just smart enough to pick the best candidate. The easiest to break. People that overhandle a baby are doing it no favour. I am out horse hunting, how can I tell what bad habits the owners have taught the horse while spend very little time with them.. I know that if I see an unhandled bad *** colt he is not spoiled and after my selection process I have a good chance of knowing what I bought.
I have experience picking babies and I do it my way. You do it your way.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

RomanticLyric said:


> I don't know any trainers (and I know quite a few) who prefer unhandled horses to ones that have been properly taught good ground manners. In fact, that's exactly what trainers look for. The fact that you only buy STUD colts that are 3, 4, 5, or older, says you've got something to prove.
> 
> Also why must it be one or the other? The way you put it, a horse is "unhandled" or a "barnyard pet." There are no well-adjusted horses in between these two extremes. That's ridiculous.


 
I prefer them to be unhandled because then I know what has been done with them. There are few people that actually teach good ground manners that don't continue the horses training themselves. There are a great many people that THINK they have taught thier horses good ground manners.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Riosdad For the record I agree with a lot of what you say. I think it's funny that people will spend hours desensitizing thier horse but if they change bits and thier horse doesn't do a happy dance they think the horse can't adjust to wearing it. In all the years of being around horses I have NEVER seen a horses jaw broken with a bit of any kind.
> 
> The comment I found the most interesting is that the horse won't gallop in the arena. If a horse has a hard time going it will often have a hard time stopping. Maybe work on getting the horse freed up to gallop in the arena and he will stop better as well. I wouldn't reccomend just whipping him into a gallop.


Thank you Kevin. I too have never seen a horse break a jaw with a bit or anything else. We just need to get out more.:lol:


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> Yes I had a horse go up and over. I was riding bitless in a simple set of side pulls. I only had about an hour to test this horse and decide if I wanted him or not. He was a 7 year old stud unhandled so with the owner's permission I saddled him, put on the side pulls and with him holding _I stepped aboard and he turned him loose. I got my ride and yes he tried going over on me . I got my ride, didn't like him , thanked him and never went back. What is the problem??_
> _I may be getting older but I am still in excellent shape and know what I am doing._


May I please ask (and this is in no way meant to be snarky) ... what did you expect to happen, stepping up on an unhandled 7 year old stud? 
If a horse is previously unhandled (which to me means literally barely halterbroke, if that) and all of a sudden they have not only a saddle, bridle, but also a man on them... I'm not sure what one would expect the outcome of that to be. Personally, I would expect it to go very poorly, as it sounds like it did.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I prefer them to be unhandled because then I know what has been done with them. There are few people that actually teach good ground manners that don't continue the horses training themselves. There are a great many people that THINK they have taught thier horses good ground manners.


That's exactly it. I have very little time to spend with a horse before buying and I knowthatthe unhandled puke is unspoiled. Sure he has no manners whatever, he bites , he kicks but at least I expect it and can deal with it. The barnyard pet is sneaky and I don't know how screwed up he really is so I avoid them


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> May I please ask (and this is in no way meant to be snarky) ... what did you expect to happen, stepping up on an unhandled 7 year old stud?
> If a horse is previously unhandled (which to me means literally barely halterbroke, if that) and all of a sudden they have not only a saddle, bridle, but also a man on them... I'm not sure what one would expect the outcome of that to be. Personally, I would expect it to go very poorly, as it sounds like it did.


I was out horse hunting and this old doctor had a 7 year old stud in his barn. He was afriad of it and offered him to me at a good price. 
I didn't particularly like him but I wanted to give him a honest chance. I wanted to ride him first. I expected a battle but was willing to have a go. I did not put a bit in his mouth. We tied his head to a post and I saddled him and stepped aboard and he turned him loose. Again I expected some fight. We ended up taking a turn around a big grass field and when I was about to step off him he went up and over. I slide off to the side and when he got up I was back in the saddle. I rode him around thefield agian just so we finished on a good note. I unsaddled and put him away.
I didn't buy. Again I didn't care that if he bucked. _I just wanted to see how he felt under me. _
_Don't necessarily judge others by your standards. I have stepped aboard a number of unridden horses with no handling in the past._

_I believe in training a horse by doing. Many a time I have just met a horse , saddled him, had someone hold him for me to get aboard and then turn him loose and I head off into the bush. For that I don't bit the horse but use side pulls._


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I borrowed this from another post in the equipment section. It is a perfect example of a well set up horse. The rider is light so she has a curb bit. This is an acceptable bit, a good combination, small girl and a good bit. You can find this forum full of horses set up like this and yet most of you condemn the curb?? I approve of setups like this. It will give her more control and thus make the horse actually lighter to the touch.


[/QUOTE]

It may be a good bit, but it is totally adjusted wrong. It is hanging too low in the mouth.

I take all my students out the XC course, when they're ready, and teach them the one rein stop (emergency stop). It is something all riders should know how to do....and never need to do.

The emergency stop should NOT throw your horse off balance. The horse never turns and is able to go straight ahead. If your horse is turning during the one rein stop, you are doing it incorrectly. I see so many people using the one rein to turn their horses and that is not only dangerous at speed, but it doesn't work too well at speed.

I did find a video that shows how I teach it. You have to bear with it as the stop is demonstrated mid video. This stop, which allows the horse to go straight, works fantastically and safely.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> I was out horse hunting and this old doctor had a 7 year old stud in his barn. He was afriad of it and offered him to me at a good price.
> I didn't particularly like him but I wanted to give him a honest chance. I wanted to ride him first. I expected a battle but was willing to have a go. I did not put a bit in his mouth. We tied his head to a post and I saddled him and stepped aboard and he turned him loose. Again I expected some fight. We ended up taking a turn around a big grass field and when I was about to step off him he went up and over. I slide off to the side and when he got up I was back in the saddle. I rode him around thefield agian just so we finished on a good note. I unsaddled and put him away.
> I didn't buy. Again I didn't care that if he bucked. _I just wanted to see how he felt under me. _
> _Don't necessarily judge others by your standards. I have stepped aboard a number of unridden horses with no handling in the past._


I'm not judging one bit, just genuinely curious. Personally, I've found that a horse newly under saddle feels nothing like a horse with time and training on it, so that's where I got confused. If I want an unstarted prospect, I look at how the horse moves. I've found that the first few rides are not going to be a true representation of what the horse is going to be, as they're usually very tense, and not moving as they will with more time and balance. 
Again, that's just me.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

It may be a good bit, but it is totally adjusted wrong. It is hanging too low in the mouth.


[/quote]

I should never have borrowed that picture. She didn't ask for us to criticize her. I thought it was a good picture of a little girl, a full size horse riding with a good bit for her size. Again I bet 50% of the riders here ride with a curb bit. I know 2 parilli riders and they both use curb bits, well one curb and one gag bit.


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## Romantic Lyric (Dec 31, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I have nothing to prove,just smart enough to pick the best candidate. The easiest to break. People that overhandle a baby are doing it no favour. I am out horse hunting, how can I tell what bad habits the owners have taught the horse while spend very little time with them.. I know that if I see an unhandled bad *** colt he is not spoiled and after my selection process I have a good chance of knowing what I bought.
> I have experience picking babies and I do it my way. You do it your way.


I understand where you're coming from to a certain extent - "knowing the history of the horse" what it's done and what it hasn't done is important. But if you're REALLY that concerned with have an untouched colt, you should just breed your own. Buying horses from people who haven't handled them it all doesn't really recommend the owners very highly in my eyes, and if that's how they treat their animals, I can't imagine they breed anything worth while. But like you said, you'll stick to your way of picking babies and I'll stick to mine.





kevinshorses said:


> I prefer them to be unhandled because then I know what has been done with them. There are few people that actually teach good ground manners that don't continue the horses training themselves. There are a great many people that THINK they have taught thier horses good ground manners.


So what you're saying is there are very few people - out of ALL the _millions_ of people who train and raise horses - who properly teach ground manners? Uh huh. Got it.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I used to really hate RiosDad attitude, but I find that if people can move past his seeming arrogance and at times obnoxious sounding attitude, they can take some really good advice from him. Don't take everything he says so literally - he's not a trainer of pampered show pets, he's a trainer of ethically sound work horses and problem horses. I have a temper and RiosDad got me flared up enough that I only focused on his attitude and didn't bother sifting through his points to get to the heart of what he was saying. I find myself better educated by him now that I've calmed down, let him be a crochety old man, and just take what I need from his advice. :lol:

If you don't want to use a curb that's fine, but RiosDad point is that he's sick of people acting like it's abuse. Different things can be accomplished with different measures, and I don't think anyone is in a position to call him a liar because his methods work for him. Don't use them if you don't agree with him, but don't be so quick to point the finger of abuse please.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> I'm not judging one bit, just genuinely curious. Personally, I've found that a horse newly under saddle feels nothing like a horse with time and training on it, so that's where I got confused. If I want an unstarted prospect, I look at how the horse moves. I've found that the first few rides are not going to be a true representation of what the horse is going to be, as they're usually very tense, and not moving as they will with more time and balance.
> Again, that's just me.


I just wanted to feel him. I have bought my last 2 horses without riding them. My second last horse we couldn't even catch. I bought him without laying a hand on him but I did ride him within 5 minutes of him being delivered. While the owner held him I saddled him and stepped aboard.

I am buying horses, I will NOT buy a broke horse. I will NOT buy a mare. I will NOT buy a barnyard pet.
I don't have any way to decide on a prospect accept my gut feeling. Yes I watch him move. I watch him closely by giving him a series of tests. I watch how he reacts to them. I do hobble before buying to see how they handle the restraint and yes these can be barely halter broke pukes. I also blind fold to again see how they handle this..

Read my post on the "Gentlemans horse"" this is my guide to what I am creating.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

RomanticLyric said:


> . Buying horses from people who haven't handled them it all doesn't really recommend the owners very highly in my eyes, and if that's how they treat their animals, I can't imagine they breed anything worth while. But like you said, you'll stick to your way of picking babies and I'll stick to mine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is no money in breeding horses and I don't want to keep a mare, breed her and then wait 4 years. It just is not worth the time to me.
As for good bred horses unhandled? The old doctor I bought one of my horses from had money, bred really good horses but couldn't ride himself. He was in his 70's , loved horses, spent alot of money on them but didn't break them. My 3rd last horse was from Wells Fargo endurance Arabians, My present guy is egyptian bred Colors. A beautiful animal


I would love to post pictures of my boys over the years. I only ride horses that stand out in a herd. They have to have something special to them or I won't buy.

And I agree with Kevin. MOst people don't really know how to teach excellent manners. I have hung around large boarding barns all my life and I am not impressed with most people. Every now and then I pick someone and teach them. They go way beyond anything they ever thought they would accomplish. I will show how, encourage them and protect them.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I don't care about history. I don't care about breeding although to know his dad is famous makes me feel good.
I only care about how he looks, how he moves and that he has never had an accident in his life. 
He must be sound, can be a puke but he must be a male and unhandled.

A couple of years ago I looked at this 4 year old. He was skinny, tall but moved like a dream. He floated but we couldn't touch him. Grain, cornering,nothing worked. When pushed too hard he jumped a gate and then promply ran back throught the open gate. When I tried walking away he pushed me from behind and then bolted. He did this a number of times,every time I turned my back on him he pushed me. I bought him on the spot, untouched by me but a gorgous mover and intelligent.
I later learned he was broken by another trainer,at least they attempted to train him but gave up. He was a bad horse, a real bucker and it took me almost a month to honestly get him broke
I learned about the other trainers attempt only after he was killed.


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> I don't care about history. I don't care about breeding although to know his dad is famous makes me feel good.
> I only care about how he looks, how he moves and that he has never had an accident in his life.
> He must be sound, can be a puke but he must be a male and unhandled.
> 
> ...


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I used to really hate RiosDad attitude, but I find that if people can move past his seeming arrogance and at times obnoxious sounding attitude, they can take some really good advice from him. Don't take everything he says so literally - he's not a trainer of pampered show pets, he's a trainer of ethically sound work horses and problem horses. I have a temper and RiosDad got me flared up enough that I only focused on his attitude and didn't bother sifting through his points to get to the heart of what he was saying. I find myself better educated by him now that I've calmed down, let him be a crochety old man, and just take what I need from his advice. :lol:
> 
> If you don't want to use a curb that's fine, but RiosDad point is that he's sick of people acting like it's abuse. Different things can be accomplished with different measures, and I don't think anyone is in a position to call him a liar because his methods work for him. Don't use them if you don't agree with him, but don't be so quick to point the finger of abuse please.


Thank you MacabreMikolaj. I take that as a compliment. I am really a pussy cat and work equally well with abused horses. I just won't buy an abused horse but will work with them.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Walkamile said:


> RiosDad said:
> 
> 
> > After the horse or the trainer was killed?
> ...


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## Romantic Lyric (Dec 31, 2009)

You do care about history and in that you want the horses you buy to have a lack of history, to never have been handled. Also, knowing whether or not they've had an accident is part of the horse's "history." 

That's unfortunate about your 4 year old, but a lesson in of itself. Just because a horse acts untouched, and the owners say it is untouched, doesn't mean really it is untouched. In fact, I have a hard time figuring out how these stud colts are making it to 3, 4, and 5 without having any sort of rudimentary handling. But I guess they must be out there because you're finding them.

I feel like I've hijacked this thread long enough, so this will be my last post.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

All I can say is... If you think you are in DANGER, quit galloping. Really and truely, why are you anyway? :?


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I really didn't want to read through all 9 pages, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating something, but here's my two cents. The way I see it is you have two options, or even better, combine them.

If you have access to a ring or pasture, work on your stops in your normal bit. Any horse can and should be taught how to stop from any gait. Do TONS of transitions. Walk to halt, trot to halt, canter to halt. Your horse can do it, they do it in the wild and the pasture all the time. Doing so will help teach your horse what it means to "woah." You need to fix that gap in his training, because if you have to one rein stop at any gait, it's only because your horse doesn't know how to stop when asked.

I'm with RiosDad. Next time you let that horse run, [hopefully after you've spent a significant time working on transitions in the ring], put him in a big bad bit and ask him nicely to stop. Nothing? Haul him to the ground. Riding in a curb isn't any harsher than a snaffle unless you abuse the power it has. You should be able to ride in it just fine, and only unleashing that power when he won't respond to a normal cue. If you time it right, and bring him down right, it will be a "quick fix" in that he'll learn woah means woah means woah, and he'll learn it real quick. And just a hint, try not to let him get a good "head start" when you run him, ask him to stop before you let him go too far.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I'm from the same camp as Riosdad, with a few differences. I only ride in a snaffle, and my horses don't shake. But - Since I was about 14, no horse has run away with me. I'm a girl, and only 19/20 - So nowhere near as strong as Riosdad - But I have learnt how to use my seat, my legs, my hands, and the horse itself, to be just as effective. I ride soft the majority of the time - I always give the light, soft cue first - But if they ignore that cue and continue on doing something dangerous, I can and will shut them down hard. I'm not super strong, but I use what strength I do have in a thinking way and use the horses body/neck against it - So far I haven't found a horse I couldn't stop. The _second_ they obey, I forgive and forget and keep on with what I was doing.

This is the key - So many people discipline but they do it at the wrong time, the wrong intensity, or they *don't release*. The second I get the desired response, I go on as if nothing ever happened. Strong discipline is a tool - And it works - But it only works if you use it correctly. Used correctly, you end up with wonderfully light, responsive horses who trust and respect you. Just yesterday I was helping my dad with some cattle work - Galloping absolutely flat out across a paddock after a bull - And when that bull stopped, so did my horse off the slightest feel of the reins. Adrenalin is no excuse for ignoring cues.

Honestly - If your horse stops fine at the W/T/C - He is not having trouble understanding the cue. He is just choosing to ignore it, wether it be excitement, adrenalin, pigheadedness - But no matter the reason, there is no excuse. Stopping is a matter of safety - It is one thing that I will NOT allow to deteriorate. After a few good, hard stops, he WILL start to look for that first cue, and start to respect it. 

I'm with Riosdad on this - A horse who won't stop is a danger to anyone who gets on it and is NOT safe. It simply has to be fixed in one way or another for that horse to be a productive riding horse. If it causes discomfort for a short while but results in a safe, productive, and ultimately happy and useful riding partner, then I believe it is more a favour to the horse than letting the problem go unchecked.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Folks, let's quit bickering and try to help the OP. 

I will post this video again, as I have found it to be the best and safest way to stop a strong horse. Bear with the video as the emergency stop is in the middle.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I think that is called the calvary stop also. I had never seen it demonstrated before. Thank you for posting this.


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## XivoShowjumper (Oct 16, 2009)

I use the same method as kevinshorses- works a treat- especially with well broke or ex-school horses- they're so lazy they run until the fun is gone- then you make them really run essentially you are forcing them to do something.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

The reason that works is that the horse has a different idea about what should be going on than you do so instead of trying to change his mind you go with him and when you are together and feeling each other then you can slow him down.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I don't like the method used to stop in the video. I feel that doing a million transitions is a much more positive way to teach a horse how to stop, and in the case of the horse in video, also teach the horse how to get off the forehand as opposed to pulling the reins up like the trainer did. =|


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

Awww but one rein stops hurt the poor pony's mouth. 
Just whisper softly in his ear and tell him to slow down. It works !

(Note my extreme sarcasm) :wink:


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Please note that I am not anti-one rein stop. But the one rein stop should only be used in the event of an extreme emergency when it's stop or bail. I hate how so many people use the one rein stop as the only way to stop, when it's really just leaving a big gap in the horse's training. A horse should stop with the slightest cue. I very rarely ask for a stop from a gallop when running my mare, but she does slow down gradually when I ask for it, and we have practiced an immediate stop and she knows the difference. Easy means slow down, woah means woah, and the pressure I have to apply with the reins is pretty much the same no matter which we're doing. Yes, we trail ride in a curb with a curb chain, and we school in a solid rubber snaffle. Can I stop her from a gallop with the rubber bit? Of course. But I trail ride in my western gear, and school in english, and never shall the two gears mix.

*Transitions are the key*, but if you're genuinely worried about a horse taking off with you and you give them the oppurtunity to, it's best to have a tool that will get your point across. Of course you should introduce any new bit, of course you should know how to use it, and of course you should keep your hands soft until you need to make your point.


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## Ne0n Zero (Dec 25, 2008)

Okay so I want to apologize to people. Rio I have not personally seen your method so I don't really have the right to judge. 
I actually have seen a horse's jaw broken with a bit, in person, but I'm not going to get into that here and now. 

Not an excuse but I am going through a difficult time both with my horse (health-wise) and other things so I am a bit emotional.

I'm going to step back and re-read this topic, take some things with a grain of salt, and pick what I think would work best for Beau and I. If that doesn't work, on to the next thing.

Again, I'm sorry guys. Let's just agree to disagree on some things.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

riccil0ve said:


> Please note that I am not anti-one rein stop. But the one rein stop should only be used in the event of an extreme emergency when it's stop or bail. I hate how so many people use the one rein stop as the only way to stop, when it's really just leaving a big gap in the horse's training. A horse should stop with the slightest cue. I very rarely ask for a stop from a gallop when running my mare, but she does slow down gradually when I ask for it, and we have practiced an immediate stop and she knows the difference. Easy means slow down, woah means woah, and the pressure I have to apply with the reins is pretty much the same no matter which we're doing. Yes, we trail ride in a curb with a curb chain, and we school in a solid rubber snaffle. Can I stop her from a gallop with the rubber bit? Of course. But I trail ride in my western gear, and school in english, and never shall the two gears mix.
> 
> *Transitions are the key*, but if you're genuinely worried about a horse taking off with you and you give them the oppurtunity to, it's best to have a tool that will get your point across. Of course you should introduce any new bit, of course you should know how to use it, and of course you should keep your hands soft until you need to make your point.


See this post sounds alot better and I agree with you there, heck everybody better agree with it!
(although my other post wasn't directed towards you).


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Allison Finch said:


> I will post this video again, as I have found it to be the best and safest way to stop a strong horse. Bear with the video as the emergency stop is in the middle.


I didn't watch the video the first time since I assumed it was a one rein stop which I have no use for but after reading Kevin's response I did take the 7 minutes to watch it. It is not the one rein stop, it is a stop I have used in the past and a very good way to add leverage.
A very good video
thank you.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

That's not the one rein stop I was taught. I like it though and will practice it. Although I don't see it being much more than hauling on the reins with added leverage. Its much better for areas where there isn't room to do the "disengage the hind quarters" stop. 
Plus I love Julie Goodnight! Thanks for posting it. 
Here's the one I was taught. (another long video)


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Did anyone notice that in both video's it is about strength. The second video really talks about the muscle of the arm to gain strength. The first one was about leverage, wedging the left hand in the crest of the neck and putting all the pull in the right.
While I don't disagree it is about STRENGHT
The curb is about adding leverage, adding strength to the rider?? Why not just use it in the first place with a problem horse?
Did you also note that in the second video the guy used a running martingale?? Here again it adds strength.
For those that want to keep the snaffle why not add the running martingale? It will double your strength when needed and at the same time do nothing if the horse doesn't resist??

Both of these videos are basically showing different ways to haul on the horses mouth. Are they not cruel? Abusive??

To the OP try a running martingale adjusted properly and you might be suprised at the added control.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Ne0n Zero said:


> Okay so I want to apologize to people. Rio I have not personally seen your method so I don't really have the right to judge.


No problem. I did suggest the running martingale in the post above. It really does add control and allows you to keep the snaffle.
Good luck



> Not an excuse but I am going through a difficult time both with my horse (health-wise) and other things so I am a bit emotional.
> .
> .


Nothing is more important then your health and hopefully other things in your life will straighten themselves out.
Take care


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Ne0n Zero said:


> No, direction most definitely doesn't matter with him. I don't let him run home. When we ride down to the corner store I sometimes let him run in the open fields. I CAN get him to stop before the field ends, just not very easily. I'd say I have to start trying to slow him down after about 3/4 of the field.
> 
> 
> If I had the room for that, I would.
> ...


Neon - YOU have taught him that is is okay to run in open fields - so that is what he thinks is acceptable. Don't allow him to run when he wants and the problem will be fixed. You KNOW he can gallop - get him to gallop in the arena where you have more control. Sure he stops on a dime at a W/T/C - you've practiced it…but you haven't practiced stopping at the gallop. The reason he is hard to control at a gallop is the only time he gallops is when "you let him" (I take this to mean that HE picks up the pace and you don't do anything about it) and that is always the same place - the open field. Practice galloping and stopping him in the arena, and your problem should disappear.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

lacyloo said:


> See this post sounds alot better and I agree with you there, heck everybody better agree with it!
> (although my other post wasn't directed towards you).


I didn't think it was, but I figured I'd clarify anyway. And in scanning the posts before me, I didn't notice any mention that the one-rein-stop is for emergencies only [granted, I only scanned, so I could have missed it] and wanted to make sure at least someone read it. =P

And to the OP, it was very big of you to apologize, I wish more posters would. I really wish you the best of luck. You've been given several different methods, so pick or alter what you think will work best, and like you said, just work your way down the list until you find something that will benefit both you and your horse. I commend you for thinking of what's best for him as well. He doesn't need to learn to stop just for your safety, but his as well. =]


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## Ne0n Zero (Dec 25, 2008)

Horse Poor said:


> Neon - YOU have taught him that is is okay to run in open fields - so that is what he thinks is acceptable. Don't allow him to run when he wants and the problem will be fixed. You KNOW he can gallop - get him to gallop in the arena where you have more control. Sure he stops on a dime at a W/T/C - you've practiced it…but you haven't practiced stopping at the gallop. The reason he is hard to control at a gallop is *the only time he gallops is when "you let him" (I take this to mean that HE picks up the pace and you don't do anything about it)* and that is always the same place - the open field. Practice galloping and stopping him in the arena, and your problem should disappear.


Lol no. I asked him to. Like, quite obviously asked him to go. He doesn't bolt off when he sees a field. He will walk very calmly through it if I ask it of him. It's once I ask him to run, that sometimes I cannot stop him. 
Someone asked me why I gallop: because it's incredible. I won't be doing it as much until I am sure he will stop for me, but I love the feeling of it.

I will try getting him to go in the arena but until spring, when I can use the outdoor, there simply isn't enough room in the indoor. I don't know if honestly there's enough room in the outdoor either.


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## Ne0n Zero (Dec 25, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> Did anyone notice that in both video's it is about strength. The second video really talks about the muscle of the arm to gain strength. The first one was about leverage, wedging the left hand in the crest of the neck and putting all the pull in the right.
> While I don't disagree it is about STRENGHT
> The curb is about adding leverage, adding strength to the rider?? Why not just use it in the first place with a problem horse?
> Did you also note that in the second video the guy used a running martingale?? Here again it adds strength.
> ...


Hey awesome, I will try that. I actually already have one of those. I confess, I do not know how to adjust one properly. I will look it up, as well as ask my trainer, but would you care to try and explain for me?


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Well, if the running martingale is adjusted PROPERLY, it will only affect the horse when its head is way up in the air....which is not conducive to galloping. I would very much not recommend adjusting the running so short it will "double" your strength. It will make it way too severe, pulling the bit onto the horse's mouth bars too often.

The videos show an emergency stop. Not one you use every time you slow the horse down. It is meant to be used as just that....an emergency. 

The mis adjusted running martingale will punish your horse all the time.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

If the only issue you have with your horse is that you can't stop easily from the gallop, a running martingale isn't likely to be the solution. 

Adjusted correctly, it puts downward direct pressure on the bars of the horse's mouth if the horse lifts its head above the effective range of the bit and releases that pressure when the horse drops its head back into the effective range. Adusted incorrectly it's either ineffective or abusive - too long, it's ineffective - too short, it applies the pressure continuously and no matter what the horse does and is abusive. 

I think RiosDad is recommending you use it as a leverage device - raise your hands high enough that the rings on the martingale act as pulleys and increase the force you use on the bit. If your horse has stretched his head and neck out in the gallop this is going to be hard to execute. 

Everything I've read in this thread up til now indicates your horse is a pretty nice, pretty well behaved guy with a behavioral or training issue in *one* area. 

RiosDad's solution is designed for an extreme situation and for a horse with no respect for the aids at all. From your posts, I'm just not getting that that's your situation.


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## Ne0n Zero (Dec 25, 2008)

maura said:


> If the only issue you have with your horse is that you can't stop easily from the gallop, a running martingale isn't likely to be the solution.
> 
> Adjusted correctly, it puts downward direct pressure on the bars of the horse's mouth if the horse lifts its head above the effective range of the bit and releases that pressure when the horse drops its head back into the effective range. Adusted incorrectly - too long, it's ineffective - too short, it's applies the pressure no matter what the horse does and it abusive.
> 
> ...


You know, that's true. I was just thinking about how it wouldn't really have any effect when his head is level with the rest of his body. I don't think it'd really make a difference.
And no, I wouldn't be cranking it way down on him either, don't worry. I'm definitely going to teach myself that emergency stop. Not the one-rein stop, the emergency stop.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> Who cares how it is done as long as the horse learns who is master.
> 
> *I care. I care that Iv'e done right by my horse and that he listens to me because I've put a proper foundation on him, not just because I've slapped a harsher bit in his mouth....he is responding to pain, not ME. The horse doens't need to know "who is master".....please....they aren't dogs.*
> 
> ...


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Allison Finch said:


> Well, if the running martingale is adjusted PROPERLY, it will only affect the horse when its head is way up in the air....which is not conducive to galloping. The mis adjusted running martingale will punish your horse all the time.


 

Exactly. A running martingale only interfers with the normal feel of the reins IF the horse throws his head up. All other times it does nothing. Adjust it so if the horse is running along with a normal head carriage the line from the bit to your hands is NOT interfered with by the running martingale. Only when the horse throws his head up does the martingale pull the reins down. If the horse is running normal you and him do not even know the martingale is there.
In the emergency stop you will notice the horse throw his head up. It throws it's head up to escape the bit. At his point the martingale prevents the horse from both throwing his head up and escaping the bit. The horse also pulls himself up. Since your hands are fixed for the stop , the martingale is pulling the head down when the horse throws his head up he will in fact be pulling himself up.
Try it. What have you got to loose?? Unless you experiment with things how do you know they will not work.
As for abuse it is in your hands to make anything, ANYTHING abusive or not. Be gentle and when the horse misbehaves stop being gentle and shut him down.

The only martingale I like are the ones coming up between the front legs and having a loop around the neck.
I do NOT like the ones that clip to a breast collar.
And running martingales are used by alot of trainers, famous trainers..


Borrow one and just try it in the arena. If you don't like it discard it.
Experiment


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I was just out cleaning stalls and this martingale thing is getting to me. I will take this one last time on this post to try and explain it.
If you look at the 1st video of the one rein braced stop. The left hand clamps the shortened rein to the horse's neck while the right hand calls for the stop. The first thing the horse does is throw his head high. What this does is pull on the left fixed hand so the horse is actually pulling on himself. He is applying the pull by just raising his head. The right hand yes is applying part of the pull but the horse is using his own strength, raising the head to apply even more pressure.
While this works it is also hard to do in the field under running conditions. The horse bolts and usually you try pulling him up but he raises his head and keeps right on running.. As the video says you slide your left hand up the rein and then clamp it on the neck?? But the horse is running hard, you already have pulled, the head is up and you are suppose to slide you left hand along the rein?? What if you drop it?? This is not easy.

With the running martingale which does nothing unless the horse pulls his head up is just lightly resting on the reins. The horse runs and you pull up. The first thing that happens is the horse puts his head up and suddenly the running martingale comes into play. Your simple pull has cause the horse to brace against the martingale and he is pulling himself down just like the first video.

NO you do not raise your hands, the horse is doing the work for you, he is pulling on himself and the minute he stops and lowers his head all force goes away.

I might not be explaining it well but it works great, adds double at least the power to a rider and allows you to continue to use a snaffle.

I will drop the running martingale posting for now but try it, It works and isn't abusive under any condition.
Good luck
Wish I could be there to watch and advise.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Spirithorse. I don't buy this run away is out of fear. Really I don't care anyway. The horse runs when it gets going and the owner can't stop him. Nothing is more frightening then that and it should never be allowed. I don't care the the devil himself is after the horse he should listen at all times.
Also as to the quick fix? The horse is on his way to the meat market, I have a single chance to show the owner that the horse will stop and I do a 2 two hard stops, ones that shake the horse to the core but the 3rd stop is just a voice command only.. I don't care how it is done , only the results and the result is the owner gains confidence, gains a horse that stops and maybe, just maybe saves the horses life.
I do get the owner to try it right away. It works and so the horse got roughed up a bit?
We live in a society that has rules.Rules that are enforced with consequences?? Try breaking a rule and then tell the law that you were afraid, you didn't understand?? See how far it gets you.
Forget the speed limit, do as you please and see how it turns out.

From the minute I start a horse I define the rules, the boundries that he must live within and step outside those boundries and all hell breaks loose.
I don't yell, push them around or abuse them UNTIL they step outside my rules. If an animal knows the rules, living within them keeps the animal safe, keeps me safe and he quickly learns what those rules are.
I have trained champion animals in alot of fields and know this to be true.

If you want a reliable horse, one not trained to certian conditons but one that can run into the unexpected and yet handle it like it was regular training you need to teach the horse what is acceptable and what is not.

My Champion German shepherd is laying on the mat in front of the door sleeping. I approach to lock the door. The sheperd feels/hears me coming and opens one eye, no movement just opens one eye. I reach over and lock the door and he goes right back to sleep.
But if I am going out I approach him the same way but softly say MOVE and he jumps up and moves to allow me to go out.
I didn't raise my voice, I approached the same as always, he is comfortable knowing the rules but he responds instantly to a command.
If he did not move my foot would have moved him. I know you think it is cruel, kicking the dog but he knows I would never do that to him if he stays within the rules.
By the way he holds 13 titles.
I have competed in different classes by just reading the rule book the night before, understanding the rules and explaining them to him at the trial , during the competition and win.
He understands the command and obeys it under any situation.
I want my horse which by the way I treat as a dog, I talk to him expecting him to understand, I talk to him, teach him commands and under any and all situations I expect him to obey.

As for breaking one bad horse, try a dozen. Try it in a short time frame.
I use to spend my Sunday mornings breaking rental horses of bad habit picked up with bad riders during the week. Some I never saw before but never hesitated to climb aboard no matter what.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

You are all about the result. You don't care about how the horse feels about a situation, and you really don't understand how a prey animal thinks. Even the most mellow horse is still a prey animal, and if you forget that, you are going to get seriously hurt. Oh, and I didn't break my warmblood....I re-started him....there is a big difference between 'breaking' a horse and 'starting or re-starting' him. And I've worked with plenty horses who are spoiled brats and scared messes and I get results quickly...and not because I inflict pain on them.

You treat horses like dogs? You are dealing with two difference species who think NOTHING alike. Dogs are predators, horses are prey animals. If you can't understand the difference in their thoght processes you shouldn't be working with horses. Maybe stick with your dogs.


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## Jarrett (Jan 5, 2010)

Ne0n Zero said:


> Beau stops just fine WTC. At least, in the arena. However. Once the horse gets to a full out gallop, there is no stopping him. It's more of a "hang on and enjoy the ride" type thing, as much as I hate admitting that. It's his one and only vice.


Interesting thread. When this happens are you in English or Western tack? Any why do you think there is not enough room in an arena to gallop him?

I'm no horse trainer, but I've hauled my daughter to countless lessons with some very good trainers and always ask and listen to their training methods.

I see your avatar shows an English saddle, so this may not be applicable. In western tack, I've seen lots of Reining trainers use a training method called fencing to reinforce the stop. Basically driving a horse to a fence where the horse has to stop. Starting from the walk, then trot, then lope, etc. Then backing away from the fence to the middle of the arena and asking for the stop in the same manner at different gaits. This is all done using voice, seat and leg cues and not getting in their face. Seems to be effective. Thought I would throw it out there in case it might help.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> I've worked with plenty horses who are spoiled brats and scared messes and I get results quickly...and not because I inflict pain on them.
> 
> .


I would love to hear how you would go about breaking a really bad barn sour horse for the owner on a weekend? The auction is Tuesday and meat buyers buy most of the horses and ship them out of province.
You have the weekend to show the owner that her horse is not barn sour.
To build her confidence and convince her to keep the horse.'
The horse is 8 or 9, an experience eventer and she is in her mid 20's and a very experience rider. She competed with him, she can not get more then 100 yards from the barn when he goes up, spins and runs straight back to the barn with her haveing no control what so ever.
How are you going to save that horse???
Remember you have the weekend and Tuesday morning the horse is going???


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Sorry, haven't read the whole thread, but once I was riding a hard-to-slow horse in a muddy place, and when I tried a mild ORS she slipped right off her feet. Fortunately we weren't hurt, but a bit shaken and very muddy. But wow, it worked! She was MUCH more attentive when I asked her to slow, FOREVER after.

But I don't actually recommend this.:shock:


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Jarrett said:


> Interesting thread.
> I've seen lots of Reining trainers use a training method called fencing to reinforce the stop. Basically driving a horse to a fence where the horse has to stop.



Well, that would *SO* not work with my horses. They would simply jump the fences. I've had them even jump 4 foot barbed wire fences with me through the years.

The emergency/calvary stop is something I rarely use, but if you need it.....
I have never had it fail to quickly, and safely, stop a hard bolting horse.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

This is a video of a Jim Briggs clinic. It shows him using very patient positive reinforcement on a horse afraid of water on XC. But, this pony was a run away boy on XC. So Jim, knowing how dangerous it can be got on and performed a calvary stop on him at approx 1:59. Jim is strong and laid it on him. The horse was so surprised he went down. That is hoe effective it is. You don't have to be very strong to make it work. NOW, the difference between this stop and the oft incorrectly used one rein stop, is that the horse went down straight, now falling on his side and rolling. That is an important difference. He went straight down. After a little schooling, the horse "got it". At the end, you see this kid confidently galloping this same horse, knowing they could stop together afterwards. Good video, IMO.







Jim's training is very gentle and supportive. However, a horse MUST be stoppable to be safe. I agree, to a point, with all the posters, here. Riosdad is correct that this must be fixed. If a couple of calvary/emergency stops is what it takes, so be it. Both human and horse will benefit from this communication.

I also agree with spanking (not beating)kids who refuse to comply with directives (especially where safety is concerned). My bad!!


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Jarrett said:


> I see your avatar shows an English saddle, so this may not be applicable. In western tack, I've seen lots of Reining trainers use a training method called fencing to reinforce the stop. Basically driving a horse to a fence where the horse has to stop. Starting from the walk, then trot, then lope, etc. Then backing away from the fence to the middle of the arena and asking for the stop in the same manner at different gaits. This is all done using voice, seat and leg cues and not getting in their face. Seems to be effective. Thought I would throw it out there in case it might help.


I'm pretty sure those horses have been *taught* to halt when they're driven toward a fence. I went to a ranch a few summers back so I could have the experience of riding a variety of horses.....one of the inexperienced girls was being taught to lope, and she couldn't stop the horse, flailing the reins this way and that, accidentally curing the horse towards a fence. The horse rammed into the fence, jumped sideways, and left the rider in the dust as he loped off lol. The rider was okay, but this is why I don't reccomend the fence-stop


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> You are all about the result. You don't care about how the horse feels about a situation, and you really don't understand how a prey animal thinks. Even the most mellow horse is still a prey animal, and if you forget that, you are going to get seriously hurt. Oh, and I didn't break my warmblood....I re-started him....there is a big difference between 'breaking' a horse and 'starting or re-starting' him. And I've worked with plenty horses who are spoiled brats and scared messes and I get results quickly...and not because I inflict pain on them.
> 
> You treat horses like dogs? You are dealing with two difference species who think NOTHING alike. Dogs are predators, horses are prey animals. If you can't understand the difference in their thoght processes you shouldn't be working with horses. Maybe stick with your dogs.


*i havent read the whole thread* 
but, dogs and horses do think alike on quite a few things. they are both pack/herd animals, both depend on theirpack/herd for survival. If you really look into it they are quite alike, even tho they both eat different things.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Allison Finch said:


> Well, that would *SO* not work with my horses. They would simply jump the fences. I've had them even jump 4 foot barbed wire fences with me through the years.
> 
> The emergency/calvary stop is something I rarely use, but if you need it.....
> I have never had it fail to quickly, and safely, stop a hard bolting horse.


I've seen alot of fencing done too . But the fences are not your normal fences. They are arena walls or high 6-8 foot fencing. You actually run the horse into a corner forcing it to slam on.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

This is the guy I got alot of my information from. I follow his way of trainer and alot of times I am just regurgitating? what he says.
I really respect this guy.
About Al Dunning


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Allison Finch said:


> This is a video of a Jim Briggs clinic. It shows him using very patient positive reinforcement on a horse afraid of water on XC. But, this pony was a run away boy on XC. So Jim, knowing how dangerous it can be got on and performed a calvary stop on him at approx 1:59. Jim is strong and laid it on him. The horse was so surprised he went down. That is hoe effective it is. You don't have to be very strong to make it work. NOW, the difference between this stop and the oft incorrectly used one rein stop, is that the horse went down straight, now falling on his side and rolling. That is an important difference. He went straight down. After a little schooling, the horse "got it". At the end, you see this kid confidently galloping this same horse, knowing they could stop together afterwards. Good video, IMO.
> 
> YouTube - Jim Briggs/Sandi Farris Camp 2009
> 
> ...


Whoa! How does one go about doing that, anyway?


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

On page #9, post #87, I posted a video teaching how to do the emergency/calvary stop.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Mkay. *goes to take a look*


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I'm with RiosDad on this one. I rarely like the way he says things, but the information he is giving out is good stuff. If a horse runs away with you, any horse, under any circumstance [well, if a bear jumps out of the woods, I'll let him run] the horse MUST stop, period. If I were riding a known runner, I would work tons of transitions in the arena, and when I think we're ready to go out in the open where he usually runs away, I WILL use a big bad bit, one that he's had on before, and you betcha if that horse tries to take off, his rear will be hauled to the ground so quickly, his head will spin. Stop means stop means stop means stop. I don't care if he's scared of a stick, he and I are both a lot safer if he stops. Running away is a very, very dangerous habit, I'm not going to fool around with it.

As far as the poster with the "crazy" re-trained horse. There is no way for you to know that the horse couldn't have been re-trained by RiosDad, or myself, or any other member on here. All you know is that the people around you didn't want her. There are a thousand ways to solve problems in a horse. Yes, some are more abusive than others, and some people just create more problems, but that still leaves a couple hundred ways to fix the same problem in the same horse.

If you want to talk about previously abused horses, most people who take in abused horses aren't going to throw it around and use force to re-train it. I plan on taking in rescues in the future, but I will not let it walk all over me just because it has a bad past. If it goes to take a bite out of me, it will get punished for it. If it tries to run me over while on the lead rope, it will get pushed back and it will learn real quick that I am boss, period. Maybe I wouldn't handle the situation in the same way I would another "normal" horse, but I won't let it take a chunk out of me or run me over just because "him's got scared of someting, and him's didn't do it on purpose, and him's been beaten before." Take what you will from that. But I can make a great horse and establish a great partnership. There is always an alpha in the herd, and I have no problems working _with_ the horse, but I am still alpha.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

I use a curb on Sunny literally for my safety and his. Do I like it? Not particularily. But it's what I have to do.

So as far as curbs go, I use one when I have to.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

riccil0ve said:


> I'm with RiosDad on this one. I rarely like the way he says things, but the information he is giving out is good stuff. .


Thank you riccilove. I call a spade a spade and don't sugar coat it. 
I watched the new show, the Dog Whisperer? Some of you might be familiar with it?? Being a dog trainer myself I see alot of things most of you might not but beleive me he takes time outs, he takes the dog off camera and they have a few serious discussions and then he comes back on and you see what he wants you to see. I watched the use, the hard use of a spike collar today and the use of a 4 or 5 foot long pole to demand obedience on a large dog.. It is not all sugar and spice, there is time out behind the barn so to speak.
Again thank you riccil0ve for the kind words.
Have a nice night


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Thank you riccilove. I call a spade a spade and don't sugar coat it.
> I watched the new show, the Dog Whisperer? Some of you might be familiar with it?? Being a dog trainer myself I see alot of things most of you might not but beleive me he takes time outs, he takes the dog off camera and they have a few serious discussions and then he comes back on and you see what he wants you to see. I watched the use, the hard use of a spike collar today and the use of a 4 or 5 foot long pole to demand obedience on a large dog.. It is not all sugar and spice, there is time out behind the barn so to speak.
> Again thank you riccil0ve for the kind words.
> Have a nice night


Most situations I will try to work it out in other ways, but there are times when wrong is just wrong. You run, and I stop. You bite and I hit. You rear and you get a fist on the top of your head. Then I'll go back and see what caused the behavior, but I'm not about to let a horse get away with anything that isn't absolutely necessary. 

I try not to get too rough with dogs. As it typically takes a lot to make a horse aggressive, it doesn't take nearly as much for a dog, lol. I'd rather be bitten by a horse than a dog. =P However, I do see why you would relate the two. Training is training, no matter what species.

And your welcome. =]


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> You are all about the result. You don't care about how the horse feels about a situation, and you really don't understand how a prey animal thinks. Even the most mellow horse is still a prey animal, and if you forget that, you are going to get seriously hurt. Oh, and I didn't break my warmblood....I re-started him....there is a big difference between 'breaking' a horse and 'starting or re-starting' him. And I've worked with plenty horses who are spoiled brats and scared messes and I get results quickly...and not because I inflict pain on them.
> 
> You treat horses like dogs? You are dealing with two difference species who think NOTHING alike. Dogs are predators, horses are prey animals. If you can't understand the difference in their thoght processes you shouldn't be working with horses. Maybe stick with your dogs.


Considering he's been working with horses for over fifty years, that ship has long sailed and you've obviously been proven wrong in the fact that he's still alive, not crippled and still working with horses.

Your method isn't the only method that exists. Just because RiosDad finds a different path doesn't make it abusive or wrong just because you say so. I try to respect you, but the thought of a kid trying to tell an old cowboy and trainer how to do his business makes it really hard. Open your mind a bit and try not to be so judgemental towards others who's animals are just as sassy and happy as yours are.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I personally don't care if someone has been dealing with horses for 50 years. If the person uses force and pain to make the horse comply I don't have any respect for them. No horse should have pain inflicted on them like that, there are MUCH better ways, and I'm not just talking about the way I chose to do things.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Seeing as I've dealt with barn sour horses before (both fearful and "stubborn" horses) this is an easy issue to solve. If the horse is fearful it's all about working on his thresholds. Approach and retreat, building his confidence in me so that he feels safe to go where I ask him. Pushing him to the limit, but not over it. If the horse is stubborn, it's a matter of getting the horse to WANT to go...to put effort into going where I ask. I would usually start on the ground and build a relationship and build rapport, but since you've allowed me just the weekend I would simply reward the slightest try. He takes a step in that direction, praise (or grazing spot). Work around in the area where he is ok with, going forward when I ask, etc. until he is willing. Ask a lot, accept a little, reward often.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> I personally don't care if someone has been dealing with horses for 50 years. If the person uses force and pain to make the horse comply I don't have any respect for them. No horse should have pain inflicted on them like that, there are MUCH better ways, and I'm not just talking about the way I chose to do things.


Like what exactly? Where exactly do you read that RiosDad daily inflicts pain on his animals? Contrary to what you like to believe, the world isn't "nice" and if RiosDad can save one horse from an abusive owner or a slaughter truck just be bouncing a little spur or using a little curb, then I tip my hat to him. The mild and brief "pain" a horse in his care may experience is a laughingstock compared to what's going to happen to the animal if he's a confirmed danger and sent to one of any other number of trainers.

I have an issue with pain and abuse when the HORSE tells me it's a problem. Until the day my horses, or RiosDads horses flee from the gate at the sight of him as opposed to leaving their own food to walk over nickering happily, keep your narrow minded opinions to yourself please. Based on your theories, you basically have zero respect for 99% of the equine population for using methods similair to RiosDad (which I myself employ). That's pretty ignorant if you ask me. I have never had an issue with your methods, so don't tell us that our methods are cruel just because you have this belief that you know exactly how a horse thinks. Unless you're a horse, you don't, plain and simple. Listening to them gives you the best answer, and mine are pleased as punch with themselves, thank you.

Sorry for hijacking this thread, I am done now.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I bet she suggests the Parrelli 7 games.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I think the issue here is that this is a rider who came for help because she doesn't know how to stop her horse...if she doesn't know how to handle that situation, do you honestly beleive that throwing a bigger bit in the horses mouth and saying to the rider "now PULL HARD" when he doesn't stop is actually going to help? Yes, for alot of people with training experience, we know how to use our tools, but for an amature rider who is looking for help? Probably not; what would likely happen is the rider pulls, the horse wigs out, stops hard, and possibly goes over because the release isn't immediate; or goes over anyway, because the new bit is such a surprise. Another possibility is the horse simply flips his head in the air, because he doesn't understand the concept of the new bit, and keeps running, only now he is running blind because he is confused and frustrated; rider keeps pulling, possibly starts jerking the reins, horse eventually pops rider in head, because he freaks out all the more. I've seen these things happen more than once in my years of training horses; and often by reputable trainers...and what winds up happening to the horse? He's coined as untrainable or dangerous...but it didn't have to be that way. 

I DO NOT think that introducing a horse to a new bit should ever be taken lightly, or done just as a quick answer, because the horse has an obvious problem in his training. 

I AM NOT against curb bits, but I'm not for them when they are suggested to be used in a situation as is suggested. There is more work that needs to be done than a harder bit put in the horse's mouth, and it won't get accomplished by suddenly suprising the horse with a bit with more leverage and bite.


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## Thatgirlsacowboy (Aug 17, 2009)

Kevin,

Lol. I was forced so many times to do the Parelli seven games when I was little. My goodness. I'm so glad I have my own horse now and I can make my own decisions with her. 

To the Op: I think alot of really great advice has been given. I hope you can figure out which works for you and your horse the best. The thing about asking advice from a bunch of people is that you're going to get a great deal of different answers and oppinions. Some you might, right off the bat, agree with. Some you might not. But what I have found is that you're really not going to know for sure untill you try it. You might have to try a little bit of everything and see what works for YOU. And the even funnier thing about humanity in general, is that most everyone thinks their way is right. My Humanities teacher always tells us that life isn't just black or white. Theres many roads that can get you the same exact place and keeping an open mind is always your map to find the best direction that works for you. You have to figure out your own truth. I pretty much love my Humanities teacher. So I hope you figure out your "truth". 

Oh, and of course let us know how it goes. =) Good luck!!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I tried the Calvary stop that was shown in the video on this thread today. Of course my horse wasn't running away but it worked very well and I would highly recommend it in the OP's case. Practice it a few times and then do it at each gait after giving your normal seat and leg cues. By doing it at a w/t/c your horse will not be so suprised by it at the gallop. Good luck.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

He has stated many times that he will haul back on the reins and MAKE a horse stop while using a harsher bit. You can't tell me that doesn't inflict pain on a horse. I will post my opinions just like you will post yours, so honestly back off me. I don't agree with his method because it inflicts pain and uses unnecessary force. Plain and simple. Don't read anymore into it than that.

What would be so wrong if I did suggest the 7 Games (which I haven't)? It would be my opinion, so get over it.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

I think the OP has gotten enough information from this thread. If you need more please feel free to start another. I'm closing this one before it turns into a PC again.


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