# Rollkur



## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Walk around with you head pinned to your chest for 15 minutes and get back to us...

Sorry to be so bitter, but that's my take on Rolkur. Very harsh stuff.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Very old debate, been brought up multiple times. Have a look through the dressage and english riding threads, there are multitudes of rollkur posts.
Yeah some riders swear by it, I don't think it's necessary. If you need to pin a horses head to it's chest for half an hour to make it soft you need to re-evaluate your riding.


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## LoveMyDrummerBoy (Nov 5, 2009)

^^ completely agree. Rollkur also cuts off breathing and can suffocate a horse. I know a horse that lives a few stalls down from mine and he had been a jumper and then was sold to a "dressage" lady. She strongly believed in Rollkur. Now, Oliver's (the horse) back is crap and he is in and out of lameness all the time. 

I am also bitter about it. It's a very evil shortcut.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Oops sorry I didn't read though your whole post just saw rollkur haha.
As for the con's of it, there was a study done in Holland that tested the stress levels of horses trained with rollkur against those trained without. There were 5 of each horse (5 rollkur trained, 5 'other') put in the same environment, stabled in the same location, ridden at the same time of day etc. the only difference being the training method.
Monitors were attached to them after their ride each day for 2 weeks to determine their stress levels. They found that the rollkur horses were actually less stressed than the 'other' horses. 

Also, there hasn't been any solid proof as such that rollkur is immediately detrimental to the horses health. Riders who use and defend rollkur, claim that using rollkur lifts and engages the horse's back

This said, I'm not keen on it as I said above. Why use it to 'engage a horse's back' (I don't understand how this can be achieved using rollkur due to the way a horse is built) when you can use 'normal' methods to achieve the same outcome, minus the controversy and very uncomfortable looking horses.


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## sorelhorse (Feb 16, 2009)

Kayty said:


> Oops sorry I didn't read though your whole post just saw rollkur haha.
> As for the con's of it, there was a study done in Holland that tested the stress levels of horses trained with rollkur against those trained without. There were 5 of each horse (5 rollkur trained, 5 'other') put in the same environment, stabled in the same location, ridden at the same time of day etc. the only difference being the training method.
> Monitors were attached to them after their ride each day for 2 weeks to determine their stress levels. They found that the rollkur horses were actually less stressed than the 'other' horses.
> 
> ...


hmm ive never heard that. sounds intersting. 
btw im not saying i agree or disagree with rollkur. just looking for opinions.


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## PaintingMissy (Nov 9, 2009)

I recently did a project on school about this and found sustainabledressage.com helpful. She takes a view point of con Rollkur. I am also against it, but it is totaly your opinion in the end. I recommend reading the whole site and then reviewing before making your final decision.


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## PechosGoldenChance (Aug 23, 2009)

I agree that I think it's a pretty rough way to get your horse round. All horses need (with that issue) is a good rider, and lots of transitions from nice slow jogs/trots, to extended trots. Oh, and I forgot to add the half-halts and sitting deep in your seat at the same time too. 

Kayty: You should be a super mod.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Another oops I just realised... in my last post I wrote the 'cons' of rollkur, it was meant to be the 'pros' 

PechosGoldenChance... super mod????


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Personally I don't condone the use of Rollkur, I find it excessive and unnecessary. That said, I don't compete at a level where it would be of any benefit to me or my horses.

One point though, I found the quote chosen to illustrate the negative effects of Rollkur to be written in a persuasive tone, appealling to peoples emotions rather than actually outlining WHY it is a bad idea:



sorelhorse said:


> Rollkur is bad-
> 
> “Hyper flexion, otherwise known as “Rolkur,” is such a strong reminder of how much horses do for us in spite of our ignorance, our mistakes and, in this case, our need to win. I think any real horse lover gets a terrible feeling in their stomach when they see this kind of torture all in the name of performance. Not only is there the potential physical damage and pain, but the mental and emotional indignity is, to us, even worse. Here is this beautiful animal forced into a helpless position where he can see nothing but the ground underneath him...and what for? To win a prize that means nothing to the horse?”


Here is another description that is a little more factual:

"Those who disagree with rollkur say it goes against the principles of classical dressage and the written rules of the FEI. This includes the fact that the horse is physically behind the vertical. This makes it difficult to check if the horse is correctly accepting the bit. During hyperflexion of the neck the cervical vertebrae are compressed, where classical dressage promotes lengthening and relaxation of the neck. With rollkur, impulsion and throughness may be lost due to a stiff, improperly stretched back. This can easily occur when the hand of the rider is not gently asking the horse to come low (but pulling in) - and/ or the horse is not accepting the hand, but bending in an attempt to evade the hand. A pure disadvantage is that the horse is encouraged to bring its point of gravity towards the forehand.
There is also a great debate as to whether rollkur constitutes animal abuse, both physically due to the held over-flexed position, and mentally due to forced submission. Given that a similar practice is longstanding and routinely seen with the use of draw reins in schooling horses for events such as western pleasure, where it is close to being a universal practice (though also controversial in some circles), the debate has major ramifications across different disciplines."

Ripped straight from Wikipedia, not having a go at you SorrelHorse, just wanted to include a quote that sounds a little more solid!

P.S. I agree, Kayty for super mod!!! Responses are always well thought out, honest and respectful, good on you.


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## PechosGoldenChance (Aug 23, 2009)

Kayty: Yea, a super mod, or some type of moderator.


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## GreyRay (Jun 15, 2010)

MyBoyPuck said:


> Walk around with you head pinned to your chest for 15 minutes and get back to us...
> 
> Sorry to be so bitter, but that's my take on Rolkur. Very harsh stuff.


Haha! Exactly!

Honestly if anyone ever came to me and wanted me to train their horse in a hyperflexed position, I would shove there head up their behind and ask them how they liked it!


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## GreyRay (Jun 15, 2010)

Here is a good explanation of Impulsion


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

As someone who helped to retrain a horse from rollkur, I can say I'm against it. These horses are not at all on the bit. When I got on him as well as when I saw him move at liberty, it was very clear that he was quite imbalanced and did not know how to hold himself. Their over all muscling is different from a horse that is trained with standard methods, as they often have more under neck muscle and their back muscles feel flat and dry. They are also often sore in the poll and 1-4th vertebrae area, understandably. The masseuse that worked on my horse said that some of the older horses that were rollkured for years would become very agitated if you even laid your hand on that part of the neck.


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## IllComeALopin (Apr 6, 2010)

OK, I have a question, _please_ excuse my ignorance but I am dying to know this...

When I go to some clinics, your typical colt starting nh (not parelli) _some _trainers are really in their horse's face... trying to get them to flex both vertically and laterally... do you consider this rollkur or a type/form of rullker?

Here is what I'm talking about... Clinton Anderson riding Mindy...
To me Mindy seems VERY over flexed though she is reining she is clearly NOT on a loose rein... I was just wondering if this is like rollkur...
*I do NOT want a CA debate, I just want plain and simple: Yes this is Rollkur, not it is not.*


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I'll be curious to hear the answer to that question. I always wonder how deceiving those pics of "loose reins" are where leverage bits are concerned. I don't think it's rolkur only because it's not a situation where the horse's head is being cranked into a set position by the rider. The horse in that CA video seems to be overflexing on his own to avoid any possible contact with that leverage bit.


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## IllComeALopin (Apr 6, 2010)

MyBoyPuck said:


> I'll be curious to hear the answer to that question. I always wonder how deceiving those pics of "loose reins" are where leverage bits are concerned. I don't think it's rolkur only because it's not a situation where the horse's head is being cranked into a set position by the rider. The horse in that CA video seems to be overflexing on his own to avoid any possible contact with that leverage bit.


Again, look close, the horse is NOT on a loose rein.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

IllComeALopin said:


> Again, look close, the horse is NOT on a loose rein.


That's what I was trying to get at when I said how deceiving loose or I guess slack looking reins are when using a leverage bit. If that's a 3 or 4" shank, that's a lot of PSI. Still not sure if that constitutes rolkur though. I don't know enough about western riding. To me that really looks more like a horse trying to avoid contact rather than being held on it.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

In one video of CA riding another of his horses, he felt the need to say that that horse held his head behind the vertical naturally; now that I've seen this of Mindy, I doubt it! She's looking at the ground just like the other one, so CA's causing it. The only other explanation is that _both_ of these horses go behind vertical naturally! Whether the horses are evading the bit or being held in, the position is the incorrect/hard on horse rollkur position, so I'd have no issue if someone called it rollkur. Please read the excellent article posted by GreyRay, for solid biomechanics, etc. Sylvia Loch has a good online article, too.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I didn't have a look at the video sorry I don't have time, but yes rollkur covers not only longitudinal hyperflexion, but lateral hyperflexion as well. So when you overflex your horse while having him very deep, that can be classed as rollkur.


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## sorelhorse (Feb 16, 2009)

IllComeALopin said:


> OK, I have a question, _please_ excuse my ignorance but I am dying to know this...
> 
> When I go to some clinics, your typical colt starting nh (not parelli) _some _trainers are really in their horse's face... trying to get them to flex both vertically and laterally... do you consider this rollkur or a type/form of rullker?
> 
> ...


ya, id say its a form of rollkur, definitly not as harsh as it can get...but a form.


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## sullylvr (Aug 13, 2009)

i just think its awful. have no ide why you would want to do it, its ugly to me and as a dressage rider myself i can only wonder why people prefer it to a nice comfy "on the bit" i ride all my horses on the bit, it is a good way for them to engage their back and hindquarters while their head is still in a comfy position. rollkur is disgusting, and i see no good from it.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Thanks for posting that. I actually never thought of the "deep bending" of Western-type training to be rollkur, but it sure looks like it.

Rollkur "good": is a momentary position, like teaching a one-rein-stop. (Submission)

Rollkur "bad": is holding the position for more than a few seconds. I understand it can cause calcium to build up in the bones near the poll, which can actually restrict movement/suppleness.


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## Icyred (Mar 31, 2009)

Rollkur can be effective for training when used sparingly in the hands of a professional and knowledgeable horse person.

It is when people who don't fully understand the concept and application that this type of training can become harmful and out of hand.


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