# New aggressive gelding



## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

(This is just a quick reply. My "actual" reply will be in a below post."


Thank you - thank you - _for the paragraphs_.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

So, I decided to answer. I’d take him back to the auction. I’m sorry to say it, and I know it’s not what you are looking to hear.

The girl lied. The horse was broke before you got him, and this is why he was there. You could beat the ever living crap out of him and see if it worked, but could you trust him even then?


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

mulehugger said:


> I recently purchased a 5 year old 14.1h grulla paint gelding named Jax from auction.... Right away I was really impressed with how confident and willing Jax was. At such a young age and with no formal training, he was unfazed by horses, mules, donkeys, dogs, cars, loud sounds, flashing lights, jump-scares, kids, cats, and anything else you can imagine a horse being afraid of. The horse is naturally totally desensitized, gallops to the gate to greet me, and would probably lie down in the field and snooze in my lap if I asked.
> 
> He seemed to enjoy me as much as I was starting to enjoy him, even leaving the company of my other horses to hang out with me. So, after some light groundwork, I decided to see how he would react to having a bareback rider. I got on him in the middle of a field with no tack besides a halter, and he couldn't have cared less. We walked forward, went left, went right, and stopped. I got off and all was well. I rode him with a saddle/bosal a few days later and he did the same exact thing. I rode him again in a saddle a week later and he did fine, although this time he touched his nose to my left boot a couple times when I nudged his side to go forward, which I recognized as passive-aggressive and immediately corrected. Two weeks later he was loaded into a trailer and brought to his permanent pasture at the barn where I ride. I rode him bareback the same night while ponied by a friend and he didn't show any signs of discomfort or aggression.


Sometimes when a horse is unfamiliar with a person, they will "play-nice" - meaning that they are relatively "nice", "easy", (whatever) while they are "sizing-up"/"evaluating"/"getting used to" said human.



mulehugger said:


> I rode him with a saddle/bosal a few days later and he did the same exact thing. I rode him again in a saddle a week later and he did fine, although this time he touched his nose to my left boot a couple times when I nudged his side to go forward, which I recognized as passive-aggressive and immediately corrected.


I don't know about horses being "passive-aggressive...."
For a horse that is practically untrained, a little boot nuzzle to a leg aid doesn't really need "correction", in my opinion. He was probably just curious....



mulehugger said:


> The next day the barn manager told me she had tried to pet Jax in the pasture that morning and that he had bitten her on the chest and promptly received an elbow to his face. I was totally shocked to hear that Jax had been aggressive, and we ended up deciding that he was probably just feeling insecure about his new home.


Horses usually don't just randomly haul off and bite someone for no reason - or do _anything_ "just because"/"for no reason."

Most horses warn before biting. These warnings can be _very_ subtle - so subtle that the person misses said warning.

I don't know what happened, but your barn manager must've done something to provoke the "attack." The provocation can be anything from "disrespect" (such as rushing up all in his face reaching and grabbing to pet him) or acting like an "easy target" (like a lower horse). Now, keep in mind, that unless she was out there randomly abusing him, I do not excuse his behavior.



mulehugger said:


> A week later with no new biting reports I decided to really put him to the test - I tacked him up and with a bosal, we went on a 4.5 hour trail ride in the Missouri wilderness. At the start he bucked twice when asked to move past an abandoned bulldozer but quickly recovered. Then he began head shaking when asked to walk through noisy leaf litter on a downward hill.


Horses buck - especially young, green, fresh horses.

How does that saddle fit?

You may be moving too fast. 

You went from:


mulehugger said:


> I recently purchased a 5 year old... from auction.... Right away I was really impressed with how confident and willing Jax was. At such a young age and with no formal training....


to


mulehugger said:


> So, after some light groundwork, I decided to see how he would react to having a bareback rider. I got on him in the middle of a field with no tack besides a halter, and he couldn't have cared less. We walked forward, went left, went right, and stopped. I got off and all was well. I rode him with a saddle/bosal a few days later and he did the same exact thing. I rode him again in a saddle a week later and he did fine, although this time he touched his nose to my left boot a couple times when I nudged his side to go forward, which I recognized as passive-aggressive and immediately corrected. I rode him bareback the same night while ponied by a friend and he didn't show any signs of discomfort or aggression.


to


mulehugger said:


> A week later with no new biting reports I decided to really put him to the test - I tacked him up and with a bosal, we went on a 4.5 hour trail ride in the Missouri wilderness.


in a span of three/four weeks.



mulehugger said:


> So imagine my surprise when a few days later I'm tacking him up and start pulling up his cinch and suddenly he whips his head to the side and pins his ears at me, having never reacted to the cinch before.


The horse changed because something made him change.
Bad horses aren't born - they are made.
"Cincyness" can happen rather quickly, even to a horse that never had that problem before.

How is health (such as ulcers)?

How are you doing up the girth?
I like to tighten _at least_ three times. I consider it rude to 0-100-tight-as-possible-first-time when doing up the girth, but I've know people to do that....



mulehugger said:


> This was hardly my first time confronting a bout of cinchiness, so naturally I quickly placed my hand next to his cheekbone and pushed his head back with a firm NO. This had never failed to redirect a horses head in my experience before, but the moment I pushed his head back, he pushed back and latched on to my upper arm and bit down as hard as he could. If I hadn't been wearing 4 layers of clothing he absolutely would have ripped the muscle out of my arm. Without missing a beat, I immediately smacked him in exactly the same spot to the side of his cheekbone with a firm and even-toned YOU ****ER, and he immediately bit down on my upper arm again. I smacked him harder in the same spot and yelled KNOCK IT OFF, and before I knew what was happening he was towering over me with both of his front hooves inches in front of my face, his teeth bared, and he came crashing down at my feet.


Was he tied? If so, how (single, cross-tie, etc...)?

Even though there was difference in the "hardness" of the smacks, they were still a smacks. I'm sorry, but you essentially did the exact same thing three times and expected a different result. Humans can only smack so hard. Even though horses don't like to be smacked, depending on the sensitivity of the horse, smacking won't work, as you found out....



mulehugger said:


> At that point my friend with 28+ years of experience training show Arabians stepped in to the pen with him and began vigorously petting his neck and face to get him to bite again. He lunged at my friend with teeth bared and my friend immediately brought a lunging stick down as hard as he could against his face. Jax immediately powered down and did not offer to bite him again when provoked.


Perhaps that was a necessary evil... do as you must, but I don't really like that.

Purposefully man-handling and provoking the horse just so you can "punish and show the horse who's boss"?

*cough*


α CMa;1970653831 said:


> Respect should be a two-way street. Horses are prey. Humans are predators. In the horse world, horse's don't normally come straight face-to-face unless they are friends (such as mare and foal), inexperienced (such as rude horses), or as a challenge (such as two stallions). Horses approach at the shoulder or flank (not the rear - horse's know that's the business end). It is less intimidating. That's why when catching a hard-to-catch horse people suggest approaching at the shoulder or flank. Unless you are friends with this horse, don't be rude by rushing up all in his face reaching and grabbing and pulling. Horses don't like that. That's what predators do, rude horses do, or horses looking for a challenge, as it is "disrespectful". Now, that doesn't mean act submissively - asking permission timidly, but try to be courteous. JMHO....





mulehugger said:


> After giving him an hour to think about it, I got on him and took him in to the arena area. We went in several circles and figure 8's, and he kept randomly turning his head to the left and latching on to my rubber boot. Each time he was met with a hard smack on the neck, a jerk to the right with the reins, and a firm NO. It did absolutely nothing to better his behavior - it actually seemed to make him want to bite me more.


Horses usually don't do things "randomly."

Again, you are doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. It's not working, and it is showing in his behavior....



mulehugger said:


> I'm looking for anyone who has been in the same situation and what they did to fix it. Please bear in mind that this isn't just a standard biting horse, this is a horse that reacts dangerously when he is physically corrected after biting. I need constructive alternatives.


Physical corrections don't always work, as you found out.

Aggressive horses are usually horses that are either scared (feeling like they are forced to fight back) or as a dominance thing. I don't know why, but something in my gut tells me this is more of a reaction to [x] rather than him being a "bad, aggressive, dominant, (whatever)" horse.

You also have to keep in mind that you need to "reward" the correct behavior(s). You cannot go around correcting every violation without showing him/rewarding what the right behavior is.

Direction is better that correction, but if you must correct, it is good to have an acceptable "back-up"/"substitute" behavior.
Think of it this way.
Smokers.
People who smoke often can't quit cold turkey. They usually wean off gradually. When they finally do stop smoking, they sometimes do another behavior, such as chewing gum.

-

If possible, it would be good to have an experienced horse-person to help you in-person, as it is often hard to offer and/or execute help via the internet....

-

Start over, preferably in an enclosed place off-line (such as free-lunging in a round pen).

Carry a whip for an aid re-enforcement.

Approach him gently (not submissively or timidly) toward his shoulder or flank (not his face or hindquarters).
Start petting gently but firmly (not aggressively/vigorously but so it doesn't feel like tickles/flies) on his shoulder for a second. If he is fine, walk away. If he starts to give *that* face (pinning, nose wrinkles, etc...), stop petting him, but do not back-up/give him space. Do not reach for him. When he relaxes, walk away out of his space (about 25 ft. (7.62 m)). If he acts to bite, send him away (_(Re)direction_. This is that "substitute" behavior.) Wait a minute. Rinse and repeat. Gradually increasing the time of which you pet him.

Once he is comfortable with you petting him on the shoulder, gradually work your way up his neck - starting at the base. Remember, the neck is a stimulation zone. Mares bite their foal(s) on the neck to encourage them to stand. Stallions/geldings bite mares on the neck to "flirt." Stallions/gelding bite each other on the neck when fighting. Horse bite each other the neck when playing. Horses bite each other on the neck for mutual grooming. A lot of talking goes on on the neck. You smacking him on the neck feels like a nothing compared to when horses do it to each other. He probably finds it rather annoying, which could also be the reason why smacking isn't working for him. Do as you did with the shoulder. Rinse and repeat.

Once he is comfortable with you petting him on the neck, gradually work your way up to petting his head. Be gentle with his head. Horses are usually very protective of their head, so don't be all grabby and reachy and rude. 

He may be head-shy. A lot of head-shy horses are bite-y and/or aggressive.

-

Again, make sure he doesn't have something health related (such as ulcers), ill-fitting tack (such as a bad saddle fit or too tight of a girth.)

Ride him in an enclosed area.

Let him go where he wants (no steering). Give him his head and only focus on walking and stopping. The _moment_ he starts _thinking_ about biting your left boot, redirect him by trotting turning him in circles or figure 8s for a few seconds. Stop him. Let him stand on a loose rein. Rinse and repeat.

-

Please keep us updated.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Was that third picture taken at a different time from the others?


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

I hate to say it as well. I guess you found out how a young, flashy horse with a seemingly calm temperament ended up at a low end auction.

This horse is not poorly trained, fearful, confused or just threatening. He is aggressive and dangerous. He is likely to hurt you or an innocent, unsuspecting person. I can't imagine that he would ever be 100% trustworthy, even with expert training. I know that I would never be able to enjoy handling a horse that aggressively attacked and injured me without provocation .

You have a very hard decision to make. I know what I would do. Regardless of your final decision, you need to get him out of a public barn with kids and unsuspecting handlers immediately before he hurts someone and you are morally responsible and legally and financially liable.

I'm sorry you are in this position. I bought a horse at a high end auction that wasn't quite as promised. Mine has turned out okay but I definitely had to make some tough decisions regarding a horse I knew little about. It was pretty rough at the time. 

Be careful and stay safe!


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I agree, the horse sounds like he has already been under saddle. I have never heard of an untrained horse being ridden that much without issue. I will add that I have never heard of anyone riding an untrained horse that long and that hard either...

He is cute and seems sturdy. 

So my question to you is; are you willing to try a different approach or do you want to give up and sell him? 

Only read the rest if you want to keep him. 

Have you ever heard of abused people or pets turning into abusers? Because IMO this horse was taught to bite by people, and you have inadvertently reinforced that training. 

When he reached back to your foot, why did you feel he was being "passive aggressive" and why did you kick him? When I horse does that to me I scratch or rub their forehead. Sometimes I even give them a treat...

Why kick a horse that you are just learning about? What if he was just smelling your toe? Every single horse I have ever started ALWAYS looked at my foot after I cued them the first few months until they learned what I wanted. 

I never thought they were being aggressive, I understood that they were just checking to see what touched their side. 

I am not sure if you were gentle or not when he turned his head back and pinned his ears when you were cinching him up. Obviously something was wrong, but instead of listening to him you reprimanded him physically. So the fight was on...and you lost. 

So then you get someone bigger and bader to physically reprimand him. 


What do you think the horse would learn if you rubbed him vigorously on his neck and when he turned towards you, he got a treat? Do you think he would still feel angry? Or do you think he would feel that when someone rubs him he gets a treat? 


It takes time to reshape behavior, and physical violence is not, IMO, the way to decrease aggression. 


But many people will probably disagree with me and that is ok. I used to get a lot of "dangerous" horses very cheaply because others failed.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

He was sold cheap at auction for a reason he's mean and it was known. I'd take him back to auction and dump him before he seriously hurts or kills you. There are to many nice horse's that need homes, to mess with a nasty wants to hurt you horse. My bet is he's been passed around and ends back up at auction to be sold yet again,some horse's just can't ever be trusted. 

Had a big gelding who was mean he ultimately ended up on truck headed to slaughter house in mexico..


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Nothing much really to add that a Cma hasn't said very well already. 

No, horses just do not do 'passive aggressive'. That is a human concept their brains aren't capable of.

And yes it sounds like he was well trained before but had already learned that aggression works. And to challenge an 'assertive' horse as you did, when he first 'punished' you is only likely to lead to further and bigger aggression, which is exactly what you got. 

If you're going to respond with punishment to something like that, you'd better be sure it's strong enough(like a 2x4) to stop him in his tracks, or else you're just teaching him he can have you, to go harder. But that can get seriously abusive & there are generally better as than physically challenging a horse anyway.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

@Cma Would YOU feel ok working with that horse?


See, I can see all your points as being quite possibly valid, but I, personally, would not feel brave enough to work with such a horse. Perhaps you are braver.


There are horses like that; who turn more quickly to the 'fight' side, rather thant he 'flight' side. my trainer had a big bay mare that was like that. She would take you on, in a fight, and she was the kind that would possible KILL people. But, She was a stupendously built horse, and my trainer got her to respect her own authority. She did have to use a kind of collar that is very severe, once or twice. It is made of metal, and has a severe 'bite to it. AND, no ohter human was allowed access to this mare. 

Eventually, the mare because a decent horse. Never nice, but no longer a monster.
But, there was just something about her; what 'normal' horses tolerated, she WOULD NOT, so the most extreme diplomacy , and a bit of hard handling that she could no wiggle out of, was required. Only a very skilled trainer could have pulled this off.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Without knowing this horse, it's hard for me to say much. I can tell you this... IF he were mine and I were determined to keep him, I'd come to a FULL STOP on riding or even tacking up.

I'd also be cautious about snacks and treats - he may have learned he can bully humans if they have Delicious Noms in their pockets.

First thing I'd do? Just get to know him without expectation.

I think it's rare a horse is born mean. I think PEOPLE make them mean or fearful or over reactive.

I too have a low end auction horse. Two, actually.

Trigger was a 400.00 horse a friend bought. He was one bid higher than a kill buyer. He came to me, with a big heavy Ammerman roping saddle, as part of a cow/calf trade with a rodeo livestock contract friend of ours. Friend is a hard man, but he loves his horses - he said: I couldn't let him go - I'm a sucker for a long maned horse.

Trigger played nice but there were early warning signs - I just didn't know what he was trying to tell him. Unlike your horse, he wasn't aggressive, he was fearful. We thought he was just crazy (IDK, maybe he is) and it's a very long story I won't retell here, but you can read my blog if you like. Needless to say, I allowed a young man to take over riding him while I learned to ride better on our older bombproof horse. I needed a golf cart, Trigger is a Mazarati.

Young Man, looking back, had a LOT OF EGO in him and he brought it to the horses. He would 'correct' Trigger with hard smacks, beating him around the head with the reins from the ground, a lot of jerking on the reins and cinching him to hard he'd come home with blood spots on his 'armpits' where the buckle had rubbed or his mouth torn and bleeding.

Everyone I knew, at the time mind you, was of the old school beat them down, force them to submit THEN you got something.

My husband grew up around livestock and horses. One afternoon, after Trigger bolted and raked the guy off on a tree and said guy almost found out what it's like to recreate that scene from Tombstone (Where the ranch hand/train station guy is beating Wyatt's horse and Wyatt slaps him for it? Hubs almost gave that kid the Wyatt treatment for beating Trigger that day). Ultimately, Trigger became untouchable, uncatchable. Period. He wore the same crappy blue halter for almost another year because we couldn't get our hands on him to take it off, and if we ever took it off, we'd sure never be able to catch him and put it back on.

After that, I banned my kids and their friends and that young man from even getting in Trigger's pasture. I isolated Trigger in a round pen. I was the ONLY ONE that fed him. I fed him and stepped away and stood far enough away I wasn't a threat and close enough he knew I was there and making him just a tiny bit uncomfortable. 

I. spent. hours. every evening, just being in his company and being his only go-to person. I spent hours getting to know him and earning his trust and his respect (he was never a pushy horse, quite the opposite, but respect came with trust anyway).

He is my best horse now, and I trust him on every ride. It took two whole years.

Same guy? Managed to somehow get Supes, our old bombproof horse? To hate him enough Supes would rear and buck to be rid of him and/or any of his friends that came over.

SUPES is a fighter. He grew so aggressive with that guy that he drove said guy out of the pen and up the panels and over the edge. He was still so cheesed off he drove my cousin's daughter who helps me with our horses and does ranch work from horse back, all day, every day, out of the pen as well. He learned then that he could scare people.

AND IT WAS SCARY.

I thought he was going to kill them.

And I got in the pen.

Here's the important part and I do not recommend this for anyone with any sense in their head. I have none apparently so...

I stepped into the ring calm but surprised and confused. I didn't expect him to come at ME unprovoked, but just in case... I had a big leaf rake. He came at me, and I nailed him on the butt with it and treated it like an extension of my arm... with a claw on it. Supes made two more runs at me that day before we called it a truce.

BUT I DID NOT LEAVE THE PEN and in fact, I did move my feet... toward him when he came at me. I charged him right back.

Two days later, this horse is STILL MAD at young man, tried to take it out on me the same way - charging me in the pen.

I had a square headed shovel... I held my ground but I reared back with it like it was a Louisville Slugger... and I was fully prepared to lay that horse out on the ground if I had to - but he was. not. moving. me.

Supes stopped just out of reach. Watched me... and you could see him rethinking the next 5 seconds of his life. He backed down and walked away.

I have never had a cross word with him since... nor had I before THAT GUY had any dealings with him.

That's all very long, but I say this because it's SO easy to teach a dominant or a naturally confident horse to be mean. All horses LEARN from us and they mirror us. A lot will return violence with violence. And let me tell you - when it escalates with a horse? You will lose. I got lucky that Superman stopped and considered his actions. Another horse might not have - but Superman wasn't 'taught' by us to charge people. He was in the _process of LEARNING _that aggression was an effective bluff, but then he ran up against me. I corrected him and neither of us got hurt. It stopped right there. It didn't become a learned lesson.

Trigger? Violence caused his mind and emotions to deteriorate. He was a useless bundle of horse nerves, incapable of giving me two eyes and thinking with the logical part of his brain. He was a train wreck when we got him, I just didn't know it yet, and every bit of advice I followed that sounded good only destroyed him more. It was my husband who said: I know what I told you, I know what everyone else told you, but it's not working. He's getting worse. I think you need to take him back the other way - treat him with kindness, not physical punishment. (Use a carrot, not a stick)

He's still 'crazy' but he's my buddy and I trust him absolutely. He's squirrely it's easy to lose his trust and his faith in someone, and it's hard to earn it back, but he's consistently squirrely, so that's doable for me. 

I'd 10xs rather have a horse like Trigger than what you have. A flight horse is, in some ways, IMO, easier to get to know. It takes time. But they will come to trust you.

A 'fight' horse that's been TAUGHT (inadvertently) to react with violence? They have sand in their craw and they can hurt you or kill you. *I urge you to use the utmost caution* - you cannot win in a fight with a horse. Period. What you can do is slow your roll with him and simply 'be' in his company. Be confident, head up, shoulders back. Keep your body turned sideways so you appear to be less of a threat but not weak or a low horse... a target... but also it's easy to use your arm to push away in a crises at that angle. Don't make eye contact with him - that could be a challenge... OR it could make him feel threatened - that's predatory body language - and feeling threatened could make him lash out. Let him know he can't bully you, but likewise, you won't hurt him, scare him, or punish him. 

And then just be there, like you're part of his herd. Let him initiate physical contact, reward gentle contact with a little gentle contact of your own... then walk away. Just walk off. BUT DO NOT truly turn your back on him. Don't walk away backwards either - that's an invitation. Be expecting anything, but also expect nothing of him.

Take all the time you can give to get to know him. They can talk to us... but the conversations are subtle and it takes a lot of time to understand what they're saying sometimes. I think, if he's just reacting in a way he thinks is self preservation or mirroring the person he thinks you are, gentle, calm association with him, without asking anything of him, will help reteach him.

It. will. take. a long time. Are you prepared to invest a lot of time and ultimately, emotion, to this horse? Are you willing to knock him out cold with a shovel if you have to to save your life? There's a lot of questions you have to ask yourself here and if any of them are 'no', then he needs to be taken right back to the auction.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

@tinyliny

Perhaps you are right....

I am young and dumb... living in my own little fantasy.... 
I don't know that horse and one cannot tell just from a post, but I don't really believe that horse is being maliciously aggressive just to be aggressive - and certainly not "randomly", "all of a sudden" for "no reason." JMHO....


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

α CMa;1970658281 said:


> @tinyliny
> 
> Perhaps you are right....
> 
> ...



I think he's been taught. Someone turned him into a monster. He's young though - so I think there's hope. I just don't know that the OP is skilled enough to handle him appropriately. One wrong miscommunication could result in someone getting terribly hurt. All it would take is the subtlest body language for this horse to get the wrong idea - it's a knife edge to walk, frankly.

I don't think he's hopeless, I just think he's reflecting the people he's known. This is the pitfall of buying a horse at an auction - no one will be honest with you and you have NO IDEA what that horse has been through or what he's been taught.  Been there, done it twice, will not do it again. I love Trigger, I love Sarge (I don't love his surprise eject button), but Gina and Superman were taught right and treated well. Riding them vs. my two goober heads? Night and day experience. I will never buy an unknown horse from an auction ever again.


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

My first thought is ulcers. The sudden cinchiness, then later when bent in a circle. 
There are lots of threads about doing a trial of ulcer medication to see if the symptoms go away.
Good luck, that's where I would start. Hope you get your sweet boy back soon!


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

This horse was pushed to fight. He may have been recently gelded(although he doesn’t have any stallion traits), because you should never pick a fight with a stallion. Fight is what they DO. 

I asked about the pictures because I don’t like his eye in the third picture. The other two look fine. I think you pushed him too hard, too fast, and he is sore, and then felt pushed to fight. I get grumpy too when I have hiked up big hills, ridden horses for many miles, or I am asked to jog anywhere....


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> I think he's been taught. Someone turned him into a monster. He's young though - so I think there's hope. I just don't know that the OP is skilled enough to handle him appropriately. One wrong miscommunication could result in someone getting terribly hurt. All it would take is the subtlest body language for this horse to get the wrong idea - it's a knife edge to walk, frankly.


Unfortunately, yes. It's sad - for both parties. People could get hurt. The horse could be put down and pay the price for someone else's mistakes.


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## MustangMom (Jun 22, 2018)

greentree said:


> This horse was pushed to fight. He may have been recently gelded(although he doesn’t have any stallion traits), because you should never pick a fight with a stallion. Fight is what they DO.
> 
> I asked about the pictures because I don’t like his eye in the third picture. The other two look fine. I think you pushed him too hard, too fast, and he is sore, and then felt pushed to fight. I get grumpy too when I have hiked up big hills, ridden horses for many miles, or I am asked to jog anywhere....


I completely agree with the eye in that picture. He doesn't look like the same horse. His eye is defiant in that picture that was the first thing I noticed.

I also agree with the sentiment that this horse HAS in fact been trained and learned to be aggressive from someone and then was dumped at the auction. I have an auction horse as well so I know the pitfalls of that. My girl is sooooooo way much better than being aggressive, she is fearful but has gotten better with proper handling.

My opinion goes along with those who recommend proper handling is a MUST. If you do not have the experience (it sounds like you do not) I would make sure the person who handles him now knows what they are dealing with. It's okay to not move forward with this horse yourself. Horses are supposed to bring us enjoyment and bring smiles and relaxation to us! Don't let this experience take you away from horses!

On that note, I would HIGHLY encourage you to go out and handle and ride a horse you know to be trustworthy or a trainer knows. You need to "get back on that horse!" so to speak. Get out there and love on a good calm horse. Then make the decision to stick with it or get out. Again, I do not think it is bad to make the decision to get out. I got sucked in to "rescuing" 3 wild baby horses all at once and after several months of feeding, vetting, and working with them I had to make the decision to get them new homes because it was not enjoyable for me anymore, I was stretching myself too thin and not having the relaxing and happy feeling I need and want from horses. I almost got rid of my Candie girl too until I had a breakthrough with her and now she is giving me the happy feels I want. (however today she pushed my buttons and I had to remind myself I like working with her!)

So there you go. Take it how you will. Let us know what you decide. The horse is not right with the world he is in right now and needs extensive work with an experienced handler and will not be a horse I would be comfortable handling.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

Knave said:


> So, I decided to answer. I’d take him back to the auction. I’m sorry to say it, and I know it’s not what you are looking to hear.
> 
> The girl lied. The horse was broke before you got him, and this is why he was there. You could beat the ever living crap out of him and see if it worked, but could you trust him even then?


I can't say that I disagree with you, but I wanted to at least try to resolve the issue before giving up on him. It will be hard to sell him in good conscience for fear of what will happen to him and for the safety of other people.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

Here is a very good video of a horse (inadvertently) teaching another horse to fight back 





They are communicating - discussing who's who in rank. 

You can clearly see that Cheyenne (palomino) pushes Baxter (the "brown") to the point of fighting back. Baxter offered to yield (trying to get release/wondering what the right answer is), but Cheyenne didn't acknowledge it, therefore causing Baxter to fight back because yielding didn't yield release.

You can also see how subtle cues can be. Baxter didn't "randomly", "all of a sudden" haul off on Cheyenne - he warnedW first, even though it was only for a split second.

You do not want to push as horse to their limit like this....


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

greentree said:


> Was that third picture taken at a different time from the others?


The third picture was taken at the same time as the second picture. The first picture was in his pasture a few days later.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I'd also consider ulcers, since they can make some horses aggressive. It's quite possible taking the horse for a 4.5 hour ride made him develop ulcers, if you didn't feed him well enough before and during the ride. 

I agree with @a CMa and @AnitaAnne that I see a lot of errors from the human side that would make me think the horse is less at fault than it sounds. 

First, you are going lightning fast. It's like you went for your first run of a couple blocks last week and you're hoping to complete a marathon next month. You don't know the horse, the horse doesn't know you. Neither of you understands the personality of the other. You have no idea what the horse's normal responses are, or what his baseline is.

I'd consider it very foolish to take a horse that was supposedly untrained, ride a couple times and then go out for a 4+ hour ride. First of all, you're starting with a good impression and then making work seem difficult and souring it. Secondly, if the horse has no training or even bad training (you have no idea), he knows nothing and needs to be gradually introduced to both the mental and physical aspects of work.

More analogies, but it's like learning the alphabet and then enrolling in college (mentally), while at the same time starting boot camp (physically). Horses are not machines, and you should consider any unfit horse the same as an unfit human. You don't start out with a 4 hr workout, you start with 15 minutes. Plus, just like with us, learning new things mentally is exhausting just like physical labor. You don't build up to a 4 hour workout in a month, you build up to it in 6 months.

Now consider an overwhelmed horse, tired, confused and sore. Possibly with ulcers. He tries to communicate to you that he is not happy with things. You only give negative feedback, and he overreacts. You become more aggressive, and he becomes aggressive back. I would still consider his level of aggression in the warning stage - he is at the defensive level still where he is warning you off, because you have not succeeded in making him feel what you are doing with him is positive, and he is feeling negative about it. 

If you continue trying to turn this into a battle of strength, he may go farther and actually try to hurt you at a horse level, which means grabbing, holding and shaking with the teeth, or slashing, striking, stomping and all of those things will connect if the horse really wants to harm you. 

Sometimes people create horses like this by not listening so the horse learns to shout. You need to see signs of discomfort or unhappiness much sooner, before it escalates. You need to move very slowly, so he doesn't feel that he needs to lash out because you are unpredictable. 

I'd assume the horse knows nothing, and therefore has no concept of what you think is good or bad behavior. If he takes a step forward, praise. If he gives to slight pressure on one rein, praise. I'd start with ten minute sessions where the horse does several things right, then stop and reward him. Building on those small positive things are how I train. I can't imagine trying to train a horse by finding negative things and punishing them. How does he know what you think is good and right?

Also, if he was turned out with geldings that responded the way you are, he may be conditioned to bite back, tit for tat. Many geldings react to each other this way.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Honestly. This horse would be my new special project, and I'd either isolate him and make him learn to depend on me and trust me - or I'd put him out with someone bigger, badder than he is and see if he's needing to be taken down a peg or two. I've had Oops try to get pushing and bitey... and she's a doll normally. But she started to get too big for her britches. A few months with in with Gina thrashing her steadily for her obnoxious insolence put a whole new attitude on Oops.

OP: Is Blue Horse there in with any other horses? How does he act around them? Obnoxious (Like Cheyenne there?) or does he behave himself?


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Without knowing this horse, it's hard for me to say much. I can tell you this... IF he were mine and I were determined to keep him, I'd come to a FULL STOP on riding or even tacking up.
> 
> I'd also be cautious about snacks and treats - he may have learned he can bully humans if they have Delicious Noms in their pockets.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Probably the most constructive and helpful response so far.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> I'd either isolate him and make him learn to depend on me and trust me - or I'd put him out with someone bigger, badder than he is and see if he's needing to be taken down a peg or two.


I'd vote for the second option if I were to pick.

I guess isolation _could_ work, but I'm not really a fan of keeping a horse separate (non-medically) - especially as a "cheat" (to make the horse "human-needy", try to prevent the horse from becoming (barn, buddy, etc...) "sour", it's "easier" (for whatever reason(s)), etc....). Besides, isolation can backfire.... 
JMHO....


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Honestly. This horse would be my new special project, and I'd either isolate him and make him learn to depend on me and trust me - or I'd put him out with someone bigger, badder than he is and see if he's needing to be taken down a peg or two. I've had Oops try to get pushing and bitey... and she's a doll normally. But she started to get too big for her britches. A few months with in with Gina thrashing her steadily for her obnoxious insolence put a whole new attitude on Oops.
> 
> OP: Is Blue Horse there in with any other horses? How does he act around them? Obnoxious (Like Cheyenne there?) or does he behave himself?


He's in with a 17 year old gelded draft mule, a 5 year old Molly mule, and a 17 year old quarter horse. I've never seen him bother any of them, he seems to mind his own business and definitely prefers the company of people to horses.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

gottatrot said:


> I'd also consider ulcers, since they can make some horses aggressive. It's quite possible taking the horse for a 4.5 hour ride made him develop ulcers, if you didn't feed him well enough before and during the ride.
> 
> I agree with @a CMa and @AnitaAnne that I see a lot of errors from the human side that would make me think the horse is less at fault than it sounds.
> 
> ...


I will definitely look more into the possibility of ulcers as it has been mentioned a few times. I'm also totally open to the idea that this is all my fault and that somehow I am perpetuating his aggressive behavior, whether by asking for too much too fast or not recognizing his subtle cues - I never said or meant to imply that I think Jax is the one at fault here. I think I need constructive advice on how to better handle the situation myself, apply said advice, rinse and repeat. Thank you for your advice.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Honestly. This horse would be my new special project...


There are a lot of factors in deciding whether or not to keep a horse/make them your "project", but honestly, I'd try to do the same.

If he was once as you describe,


mulehugger said:


> Right away I was really impressed with how confident and willing Jax was. At such a young age and with no formal training, he was unfazed by horses, mules, donkeys, dogs, cars, loud sounds, flashing lights, jump-scares, kids, cats, and anything else you can imagine a horse being afraid of. The horse is naturally totally desensitized, gallops to the gate to greet me, and would probably lie down in the field and snooze in my lap if I asked.
> 
> He seemed to enjoy me as much as I was starting to enjoy him, even leaving the company of my other horses to hang out with me. So, after some light groundwork, I decided to see how he would react to having a bareback rider. I got on him in the middle of a field with no tack besides a halter, and he couldn't have cared less. We walked forward, went left, went right, and stopped. I got off and all was well. I rode him with a saddle/bosal a few days later and he did the same exact thing. .... Two weeks later he was loaded into a trailer and brought to his permanent pasture at the barn where I ride. I rode him bareback the same night while ponied by a friend and he didn't show any signs of discomfort or aggression.


then I truly believe that he could potentially be a very nice horse, in my opinion; I know it's easier said (especially via the internet) than done.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Yeah - It has to be used appropriately. It was my last resort with Trigger... but then... Trigger wasn't aggressive. There's not an aggressive bone in him. He was terrified of me, he got beat down just for breathing by the other horses, or would hide behind them and even let them drive him to keep him away from me. For him - it was isolation. I had to do something to get him comfortable with me or he was going to the next auction my husband could haul him to. 

A confident, defiant horse? Especially a young one? Might be best to let him learn the hard way there's always someone bigger, badder, than he is. It's worked with more than one obnoxious young horse for us - it might work for him. It's hard to watch when the lead mare or gelding gets enough and commences to hand out a butt whuppin - but they're fair with one another. The punishment WILL fit the crime and it won't be more, or less, than is deserved. 

OP - You're welcome. Trigger was my first horse btw. I started knowing NOTHING. I made a years worth of mistakes with a timid horse that had already been emotionally destroyed, and I let other people make it worse, and I let those same people almost drive a perfectly good senior horse turn into a nasty tempered monster. Everything 'wrong' with any horse I've had so far (Okay, LEROY was a pig headed jackwagon that would fight me so hard he'd fall the flip down and nearly crush me... and that's been confirmed by two more people plus his former owner and he was born that way) has been caused by people... sometimes I was that people. 

It took another whole year to undo the damage and build his trust. It didn't take as long to convince Superman that charging people, threatening to grab them and kick them was a no fly zone. THAT took a shovel and the willingness to use it... and he had to know I was willing and capable of laying him out. He knew... and he was capable of rethinking his next action. Your horse might can do that as well, but that TOO is a last resort. I didn't provoke Supes either time but I was darn sure willing to defend myself and the ground I was standing on. They know if you have the conviction to hold your ground. Horses by nature will challenge you for pecking order - but they don't want a knock down drag. The are path of least resistance creatures. Someone has taught your horse to be a butthead and to be dangerous and it's WORKED for him in the past. Is he shouting at you to back off, give me some space, I don't know you? Or is he using this as a way to make you go away and not make him work? Could be either or both - but he's learned it. He's young, he MAY be of bloodlines that are slow to emotionally mature, so he may have obnoxious young male attitudes on top of all this.

Be careful - I can't stress that enough, but I think he's not a lost cause. Don't mess with him alone - have a 'spotter' nearby ready to help but not close enough he feels crowded or surrounded *by predators?* or pressured. Be ready to lay him out cold, or at least give it your best shot, if you have no other choice. Let him initiate physical contact with you and let him come to you - be mindful of any bite threats (ears backed, lips peeling up, teeth showing, neck stretching). I have back handed one of mine in the past for that, but not hard... no harder than the other horses would have reacted had she done them that way (But that seems to provoke him more, yes?).

Anyway - you may need to consider finding a handful of mares big enough and salty enough to teach him some manners.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

α CMa;1970658281 said:


> @tinyliny
> 
> Perhaps you are right....
> 
> ...


I personally took Tiny's post just as saying SHE wouldn't work with that horse and perhaps most people _shouldn't_, including OP. That this horse has been _made_ dangerous & should only be dealt with by someone who REALLY knows their stuff. And if I took it as it was intended, I agree thoroughly.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

mulehugger said:


> Thanks. Probably the most constructive and helpful response so far.


Glad you're appreciative of the effort the rest of us put in.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

loosie said:


> Glad you're appreciative of the effort the rest of us put in.


Responses like this are why I don't post on horse forums. Responses like this make others reluctant to seek the advice that would serve to benefit themselves and their equines.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

mulehugger said:


> The third picture was taken at the same time as the second picture. The first picture was in his pasture a few days later.


I missed this back on pg 2....ok, so he was just looking sideways. That is good, imo.

As for your comment to @loosie , she was not being snarky....that was sincere. We get a LOT of posters who get hurt feelings, act like everyone is being mean, and leave. Or change their story.....there is really not much snark here, like some other forums, unless you start asking something like, “Do I tap 2 times, or 3 to get my horse to move? Which is better?”.....or something like that😁


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

I think Loosie meant no harm. She's a fairly hoopy frood, IMO (Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy reference). We just see a lot of people who come here with problems like yours, ask for help, then tell us to ****** off because the don't like what we have to say.

It occurred to me at 3 am... what strange things rattle through my head at 3am.... that the third picture with the "defiant eye" looks more like he's impatient from being tied, or surprise... perhaps even nervousness?

I also noticed that in all three pictures, he's only giving you one eye. Of all my horses, the only two I have that do this when I try to take pictures are Trigger and baby Outback. Both are introverts. All the rest are all up in my business, hamming it up for the camera. I still haven't figured Outback out and she's a wee baby, not even a year old yet. OUTBACK has threatened to bite and kick me in the past, and she got her behind beat with a croc the first time... because that's all I had available was the shoes on my feet.

The third time she came at me... unprovoked... I was standing edgewise to her, my arm relaxed but prepared to push myself or her away from me. She nearly got my arm, but she received a warning backhand from that locked and loaded arm of mine. She's never tried again... BUT... I had to separate her from her mother at about 6 months (I don't like forcing a weaning) because Sally hadn't recovered from time as a pregnant kill pen horse and we were coming into winter. Sally was also a permissive, and protective, mother. Outback got away with a LOT of rude and obnoxious behavior because the other horses weren't allowed to discipline her. As with Oops, Outback having to deal with herd politics and Gina, the lead mare, without mommy to save her, made a lot of difference in how she behaves.

I wonder if your boy is an introvert, and has simply gotten away with his antics from a young age and the seller simply got a gutfull of his nonsense and sold him, rather than correcting the bad behavior early - therefore it just escalated as he aged?


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> I think Loosie meant no harm. She's a fairly hoopy frood, IMO (Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy reference). We just see a lot of people who come here with problems like yours, ask for help, then tell us to ****** off because the don't like what we have to say.
> 
> It occurred to me at 3 am... what strange things rattle through my head at 3am.... that the third picture with the "defiant eye" looks more like he's impatient from being tied, or surprise... perhaps even nervousness?
> 
> ...


I typed out replies to nearly everyone's responses but some posted and some didn't. I'm not familiar with this forum thing yet.

I appreciate everyone's feedback and I'm internalizing all of it, whether or not I respond to it immediately. I am already feeling pretty down and insecure about the whole situation, so that particular response left me feeling more defeated.

About his previous owner, I did not include this in the original post for the sake of minimizing the length and because I'm not particularly bond of people-bashing, but she immediately seemed to me like a very unstable individual with a lot of inner turmoil and temper that would make even a broke horse uneasy to be around. 

I don't remember what was going on at that particular moment in that photo - here's some more of him from that same day.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

More pictures of Jax. I like that you guys are able to make inferences about his body language that I may not have picked up on. I wish there was a way to post video.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

mulehugger said:


> More pictures of Jax. I like that you guys are able to make inferences about his body language that I may not have picked up on. I wish there was a way to post video.


You can YouTube a video then post the link here.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Let me just say at this point: He's a very handsome horse with striking coloring and markings. I just love duns and grullas. I don't blame you for buying him. I'd have done the same, tbh. And he looks barely 5. His mane is still not fully in, he's kinda got a hint goofy juvenile build left, he hasn't broadened out much yet, but he looks promising. For 300.00 I'd have thought I won the lottery with him - but also would have been waiting on the other shoe to drop. Sarge is my second auction horse... and that other shoe is immediate, severe buddy souring to ANY mare or filly (sigh) and surprise, no reason at all bucking. He's the first horse that ever launched me.... and he shot me out of my left boot somehow. So. LOL There was my other shoe that dropped. It landed, along with my spur, shortly after I did right in front of me.

But that's why he was at the auction. Most people don't have time for nonsense and don't have time to 'fix' the problem, and I don't blame them. Like I said - I myself will never buy an unknown horse from a low end auction ever again. But I wouldn't give Trigger or Sarge up for anything either.

As far as body language goes - that's very subjective. What one person saw as defiance, I saw as impatience or surprise. What one person sees as ears being backed in aggression or a sour mood can just be ears coming back to listen. What one person describes as crowding and disrespect, another sees as companionable closeness. With horses, it's all about context and situational awareness. The differences are often very subtle (Take the crowding vs. companionable closeness for example. My horses get close to me, and I like, but I know the difference between just hanging out and being companionable and pushing me around. I know it when it happens and they get a push as a warning, then an elbow if they persist). It's a really big spiderweb of 'stuff going on' when it comes to how and why a horse is reacting certain ways and that's what makes this type of thing so difficult. For me, and maybe a lot of us here, I'm/we're just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks based on our own experiences in the hopes something will help... but not get you hurt at the same time.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I just don’t get ANY bad vibes from him! I stand by my original assessment...slow down, back up, start over. Do you have a barn? I would do my standard ground tie work with him. It seems to give them a little something else to think about, PLUS it keeps you on guard, watching out of the corner of your eye for movement. Just groom him, and watch for any signs of soreness. 

Start slowly, like he was unhandled, and work up very gradually to a full workout.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

One more thing that I'd like to add to @AtokaGhosthorse 's post:

It is, in my opinion, rather hard to tell what's going on (the horse's body language) from just a few pictures. Pictures capture the subject in time - a small window. I agreed that videos would be a lot better.

Again, as she said, context is HUGE when it comes to working with horses and trying to figure out their body language. 

He could have very well been scared, impatient, defiant, (whatever), or simply looking side-eye with no hidden meaning.
He could have very well been pawing or dancing, or he could have been simply repositioning.

What if you take a picture of a horse whose ears are pinned? Does that mean the horse is being "disrespectful" or just pinning to the horse behind the person taking the picture...?


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

greentree said:


> I just don’t get ANY bad vibes from him! I stand by my original assessment...slow down, back up, start over. Do you have a barn? I would do my standard ground tie work with him. It seems to give them a little something else to think about, PLUS it keeps you on guard, watching out of the corner of your eye for movement. Just groom him, and watch for any signs of soreness.
> 
> Start slowly, like he was unhandled, and work up very gradually to a full workout.


Agreed.

I also think he has slightly high withers and hips... I'm wondering if the saddle was pressing on his shoulders/pitched forward and exasperating the problem? His shoulders could have been very tender after being ridden in a saddle that doesn't fit quite right. Had the same issues with Trigger, have a similar problem with Sarge for the same reasons. I had to trial-and-error change out pads and saddles until everyone ended up with the right fitting saddle and pad, or it was bad bad mojo trying to ride either of them.

OP - did you manage to get any pictures of him tacked up? Also, have you ruled out that someone could be antagonizing him when you're not around?


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

α CMa;1970658563 said:


> One more thing that I'd like to add to @AtokaGhosthorse 's post:
> 
> It is, in my opinion, rather hard to tell what's going on (the horse's body language) from just a few pictures. Pictures capture the subject in time - a small window. I agreed that videos would be a lot better.
> 
> ...


That’s why I asked about the progression of pictures....if his eye looked like this all the time, or was it just a bad moment. 

If the horse has his ears PINNED at you taking a PICTURE (as opposed to resting, listening...) THAT is a bad vibe!


Horses tell us ALL sorts of things, if we are “listening”. They very rarely just BREAK. I was looking for the signal in the pictures. I am ALWAYS looking for the signal, because I break my own horses, and I am too old(60....) for shenanigans.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I am sorry that you are feeling down. I understand that you like the horse, and a lot of people will tell you to keep working or to try something else. I understand also why you are uncomfortable quitting with him.

I do still believe what I said, that the horse was there for a reason. I myself had one recently, where I felt the same as you. I didn’t want to auction him, but someone had made some really bad mistakes with what should have been an awesome horse. His problems weren’t the same, but he was dangerous. I was going to have him put down, but before doing so, a person who knew what they were doing as well asked to try him. When he did he felt conflicted. The horse was uber talented, but he wanted to kill himself and his rider. He laughed, “So there’s that.” He took him to see, and now he’s gotten rid of him as well. 

You gave the horse a shot. He is hurting your confidence and your joy. There are lots of horses out there. Maybe this horse could work for someone and maybe he can’t. The thing is, you are valuable too. Do you want to spend the next years with this horse? 

I can’t remember who said it, but this is a flashy, sound young horse that was $300 at an auction. There was a reason. I don’t think this is your fault. I also don’t think that an unbroke horse would let you go as fast as you did the way you did, and so I can see where people think you made a mistake. I just think they cannot forget that the horse was at an auction, sound and pretty and young. 

There are lots of nice horses.


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

Mulehugger I know how discouraging it can be to feel at a loss and not sure which direction is the right one. 



When I decided to accept Misty, my little quarter horse mare now soon to be 18, I had the original trainer as well as my trainer take the first 2 rides on her at my trainers indoor. The first thing I saw as the original trainer attempted to saddle her was an inability to stand still. Supposedly this was a horse that had been rode for years, just not often by the lady that was homing her at the time. Second thing after the saddle and bridle (which she had no issues taking) was how short the trainer kept her reins and how tight his body was. She had an inverted neck posture because of how she had been ridden. When my trainer got on her, he rode with loose rein and used body and leg (which we were told was how she was trained). I saw potential when my trainer rode her and when I got on I felt it. 



The lady as well as the original trainer in my opinion based on Mistys behavior and muscle development in her neck ( held her head up and back like a giraffe) was due to human error. 



She is a joy to work around and is so willing to let me do anything and works at liberty like a solid citizen as well. A real little gem. But she needed to learn horse etiquette as she was never allowed with other horses, and she needed people to understand her expression. Because she was and can still be a reactive horse, she was tiptoed around and handled with tension. 



I started her as I did Walka, from ground zero even though she was i think 12 at the time. I needed to build our relationship based on our dealings and not what happened or didn't happen before. I needed to find the holes in her training too. She had a tendency to try to bite during the saddling process. Part was due to the issue of never having a saddle that fit her wide body and learned that saddling meant pain. I dealt with it without emotion, and with only the amount of correction necessary and appropriate, and then immediately continued doing what I was. Didn't make it an issue, but I also caught it fast so it didn't escalate. I am not comparing or criticizing but only speaking of my experience with my girl. I also make sure not to cause issues 

with the cinching, I do it in 3 sometimes 4 stages (the last just before I mount up). 



What has taken me so long to say is what has been said here already. Start at ground zero, assume nothing and yes see if you can get someone who is very experienced and whose own horses are calm and content citizens (that's what lead me to my trainer where his horses want to be with him and are content in demeanor) to spot you and help you along the way.


Only you can answer for yourself if you are up to this and have the patience to take as much time in areas as needed. He is a very handsome boy, and from your earlier dealings I believe wants to be a good partner, you just got derailed and need to reset. Sounds easy, but unless handled properly can escalate. 



I am curious though in that it sounds like where you had it at first he seemed willing and trying. When he moved to his current barn things started to sour. What are the major differences between places? Also, who handles him for feedings ect?


Again, sorry for the long post...


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

I think @*gottatrot* nailed it IMO. Yes they are horses but they aren't so different from us. I would be pretty ticked off as well if I'd been used and abused like he had so fast by a stranger. It's taken me a year to build a meaningful relationship with my horse and there IS a huge difference between her being nice at the start and now trusting me properly. Also nudging your boot in the saddle - my mare does that almost every ride when we have a break and its more of a "hey whats that?" and I find it incredibly cute! I usually lean down and stroke the side of her muzzle when she does that so I found your reaction a bit over the top. 



Think about when a teacher or parent pushed you out of your comfort zone and you REALLY REALLY WANTED A BREAK. I imagine it's like that. But if the more he gives the more you take I find any animal capable of resentment. When it comes to even other species to you have to figure out if that animal:


a. responds to aggression with aggression OR
b. the threshold in which they submit
c. is not a suitable candidate for an "aggressive" approach



If they do escalate the situation you either have to be able to go above that threshold (which might continue to grow) or find another way, which I prefer. I just want to add that I think this horse maybe hasn't had the best start in life. He needs empathy, he needs leadership. And by leadership I don't mean only* a whip cracking dragon. Leadership that knows when to push and when to praise. Praise isn't just "good boy". It can be other things. You can also be a leader AND a friend and ask yourself what does the situation call for? If your friend kept wincing in pain and clutching their stomach you would ask "hey, you ok?" Did you ask your horse if he was ok? Did you try to translate his answer? If your friend with a bad tummy told you to p*ss off coz they were in that much pain, would you really leave? Or would you see that they need medical help, even if they claim not to want it? When my mare didn't want to load onto the trailer at the vets instead of escalating I just persisted and said "c'mon girl, it's not that bad. I promise you're safe". A few minutes of conversation later and zero faff she finally gave a big sigh and got on. All she needed was time. I find saying things aloud really helps your body and tone match it. No need for aggression or asserting dominance. Just a bit of understanding between us. Your horse has likely learned bad habits 100% but don't forget to be understanding. You don't seek perfection, you seek improvement no matter how small. So now it's up to you to figure out when to be the stern leader and when to be an understanding friend - you can be both even in the space of a minute. If he questions you "why should I listen to you?" Should he listen just because he should? Or are your worth his trust and companionship? You're a good person and just remember to be safe. Keep your eyes open to what he's telling you at all times, even when he appears asleep. GL!


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

I'm sorry you're struggling and feeling confused, scared and disappointed. I definitely don't think you did anything wrong. I said in my post, "I know what I would do." I didn't share because I don't know what YOU should do. I think you have a hard decision to make, and you need to take some time to weigh your risks and benefits of keeping this horse, sending him on to someone else, or even putting him down. 

I bought two horses at a higher end ranch horse auction one year ago. Both were guatanteed sound and "as promised." I got a heckuva deal on an amazing horse -- I bid $100 more than my budget, didn't make his reserve, but the sellers let him go anyway. Their horses generally go for 2 to 3 times what I paid, and he is a perfect match for me. He is truly the horse of a lifetime for me.

The second horse was advertised as an "anyone can ride, fun, beginner safe trail horse." He is actually a very light, highly trained, athletic, sweet horse who has a wild card side and bucks hard at unpredictable times. He was diagnosed with squamous cell cancer in his eye a month after bringing him home. I was faced with the decision, as a new horse owner, with having his eye removed or putting him down. People were full of advice and opinions for both options. I ultimately decided to go through with the surgery, but I also committed to putting him down if he became too spooky, crazy, unrideable, or dangerous to handle after recovering. Luckily, he has recovered well, and after a year, has actually become a fun horse to ride. I have accepted the risk that he could buck me off at any time. I will keep him for the rest of his life.

I ride for a hobby. It is an expense of time and money that is solely for my enjoyment and happiness. I am not, and will never be an expert rider or professional trainer. I am the primary earner for my family. I cannot afford to be seriously injured, permanently disabled, or unable to work for long periods of time. My family would lose everything. I am anxious, and I know I would not be able to move forward with handling a horse who aggressively attacked me. I do not own acreage where I could turn a horse out to pasture and maintain him for a lifetime. I board my horses in a very reasonably priced neighborhood co op barn. It is not feasible for me to board a horse for a lifetime that cannot be ridden for exercise, who cannot be safely handled and who could hurt an innocent passerby.

Unfortunately, with any horse, there are no guarantees. One could be sound today and permanently lame tomorrow. Their behaviors can change for the better or worse over time. Like people, they do have their own personalities, life experiences and neurobiology that predispose them to certain behaviors and responses over time. I would advise you to take all the advice you've been given and serously consider your tolerance for risk, fear, injury and financial investment in this horse. Consider your limits for investing time and money. Consider your skill set and resources for training and handling horses. Consider your legal, ethical and financial responsibilities if this horse injures someone else and provide the most secure situation possible to protect others from his aggression.

Honestly, there is no right or wrong answer. There is no guaranteed quick behavioral fix. There is no assurance that with x time, y dollars and z technique everything will turn out fine. I wish you the best. Be safe.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

I'm about to read through the responses from the last 3 hours, but I have more bad news. 

I just went out to the barn to feed Magnus, my draft mule. The barn manager had placed Jax in the pasture connecting to his, so to get to Magnus I had to walk across Jax's pasture. I knew a join-up was inevitable, but the weather was nice and the pasture was peaceful and I went in feeling positive that maybe Jax was in a good mood and we would have some magical reconciliation time. I entered the pasture and Jax immediately came walking towards me, giving all the body language I would describe as curious and friendly - ears forward, head level, and a relaxed pace. 

As soon as he got to within a foot of me his body language quickly changed for the worse. He outstretched his neck and pinned his ears back clearly with the intention to bite me. I held the lead rope and halter I was carrying between us and walked towards him, saying "shh shh shh". He turned around and walked away from me, then turned back around and continued to follow me as I tried to move on towards Magnus. Rather than leave my back towards him, I turned to face him again. He got within a foot of me, outstretched his neck, pinned his ears back, struck out with his left front hoof and latched on to my chest with his teeth. I punched him across the face and when he turned his *** end towards me I brought the lead rope down on his *** from a safe enough distance to make him go away and he jogged off. I felt that I if I turned my back towards him again he would've finished me off.

I went into Magnus' pasture and he came over and put his head over the gate with his ears pinned at me.

Even further depressed and discouraged now. I don't feel like I did anything to provoke his aggression, and I wasn't asking or expecting anything of him. I was just trying to make my way across the pasture.


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

mulehugger said:


> I'm about to read through the responses from the last 3 hours, but I have more bad news.
> 
> I just went out to the barn to feed Magnus, my draft mule. The barn manager had placed Jax in the pasture connecting to his, so to get to Magnus I had to walk across Jax's pasture. I knew a join-up was inevitable, but the weather was nice and the pasture was peaceful and I went in feeling positive that maybe Jax was in a good mood and we would have some magical reconciliation time. I entered the pasture and Jax immediately came walking towards me, giving all the body language I would describe as curious and friendly - ears forward, head level, and a relaxed pace.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry. I will give advice now, put this horse down before he kills someone.

Edited to add: Regardless of why he is like this, whether it is neurobiological, genetic, learned behavior or a reaction to past trauma and abuse, he is dangerous.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Yep. That would be my threshold. He'd be sold.

Don't be discouraged - as best I... we... can tell... this horse has problems and that's why he sold for 300.00 at an auction. Be honest when you sell him, don't expect to get all of your 300.00 back.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Put him down. But to be fair, you invited him in.....when he changed from nice to negative, I would have immediately become a fire-breathing, halter swinging, running forward dragon, and chased him off. Gone about my business calmly, ignoring him, but backing up facing is an invitation, and should be respected.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

greentree said:


> Put him down. But to be fair, you invited him in.....when he changed from nice to negative, I would have immediately become a fire-breathing, halter swinging, running forward dragon, and chased him off. Gone about my business calmly, ignoring him, but backing up facing is an invitation, and should be respected.


I totally agree. But this particular horse im pretty sure would challenge you, even with swinging halter and going right after him like a fire breathing dragon. 

Personally I'd put a bullet in his head right now today, he'd be dead if he'd done that to me. 

I owned a horse like the ops and that son of a gun would come at you. He ment business too go after him to back him off, he'd challenge you and come after you with even more intent to harm/kill. Last time he did that he got loaded on a truck going right to slaughter.

At the time shooting this horse I had, wasn't an option had it been he would of been shot that day!


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

Sadly he sounds too dangerous to be kept where anyone could unsuspectingly get injured or killed. God forbid a child, or a well meaning inexperienced person put themselves where he could get at them. I could never live with myself if it were me as the owner in that situation.



There are cases that are so damaged to ever be trusted. Sometimes we have to look at the broad picture and do what is best for all concerned. 



Sounds like he is affecting your Magnus . Sometimes they know imbalance when they see/feel it.


Good luck to you. Hard as it is, keep us posted on your decision.


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## IdahoDressage (Nov 21, 2018)

I was hesitant to respond simply because so many others had and there was a lot of good information being offered. 



Then I figured, what the heck! The more the merrier. Here are my two pennies: I would not give up on this horse. There are situations he has been put in that could have presented him with no other option than to lash out. At least, in his horsey head he had no other option.


A generally confident horse will accept novel experiences without a fuss. Having someone jump on bareback and wander around a pasture might be novel, but no big deal. He feels good about his life and goes along with it. And consider the fact that there was no aggressive response. 



For the OP, that experience went so well that she tacked him up. Horse is again not freaked out and kind of goes along with it all. BTW, a horse turning to sniff at the foot in the stirrup is NOT
at all an issue. My 24 year old Arab does it all the time.


Then horse gets moved to a new barn. And things kind of fall apart. Within just a few weeks, this horse has gone through an auction, been moved to a new facility, ridden casually in a halter and bareback, tacked up like a broke horse and ridden and then moved to another new facility. 



This is a young horse that has a confident, outgoing personality. He is way overfaced right now and he has no way to get any of it to stop so he is lashing out. The bite to the BO at turn out might have been a stress reaction. The cinchiness is a stress reaction to being ridden, and very possibly a stress reaction to a saddle that does not fit very well. This horse is reacting with aggression to certain situations, which is why I believe that it is a stress reaction more than him being some rogue crazy. 



Scope for ulcers and treat if needed. Find a good trainer. Not someone that will "take him to the rodeo" every day for a month and then hand him back. Find someone who has a soft hand, a consistent approach and is fair in their work. Put 90 days on him and then see where you're at. This is not something that I would let the resident "barn expert" help you with. This is not something I would try to work through on my own. The fair thing for both of you is to give him the best chance at being the horse you want and need.


Regarding the pictures you shared. He is a cute little snot, that is for sure. Those couple of pictures that others have commented on regarding the look in his eye? Those pictures look to me like they were taken after a ride. He seems sweaty to me, especially where the saddle would sit. He could be looking a little sour because he is way beyond his comfort zone when being ridden. I like his look, actually. I would rather have a horse with his eye on me than a horse so tuned out that they pretend you're not even there.


Good luck! And BE CAREFUL!
Sheilah


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

rambo99 said:


> I totally agree. But this particular horse im pretty sure would challenge you, even with swinging halter and going right after him like a fire breathing dragon.
> 
> Personally I'd put a bullet in his head right now today, he'd be dead if he'd done that to me.
> 
> ...


I am beyond certain that even if I had acted like a psychopathic dragon lady he would have taken the challenge. The horse has no fear in him, of anything, even things he should. I'm fairly certain that even if you hit this horse across the face with a 2x4 he would still try to have the last word. Every time he successfully injures me his confidence grows - the only reason I'm not in the ER is because he doesn't know what he's capable of yet, but he's going to figure it out eventually.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

greentree said:


> Put him down. But to be fair, you invited him in.....when he changed from nice to negative, I would have immediately become a fire-breathing, halter swinging, running forward dragon, and chased him off. Gone about my business calmly, ignoring him, but backing up facing is an invitation, and should be respected.


You're right, I did invite him in and I knew I was doing it. If I really wanted to avoid him I could have finagled my way through the barb wire to get to Magnus without going through that pasture, but I was feeling hopeful that a positive interaction between me and Jax with no pressure, expectation or distractions nearby was possible. I went in to the pasture with a "new day" mentality and I purposely gave him the opportunity to either welcome me or hurt me, and he hurt me. As his teeth sunk into my chest it did cross my mind to take a psychopathic approach and try to scare the bejeezus out of him, but at this point I'm not certain even that would faze him. If I had tried that and he had decided it was a fight to the death, I would be in an ER or the morgue right now, and for what? Wasn't worth it. He showed me his colors and in that moment I was ready to move on, literally and figuratively.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

I shared a few responses here with my friend who has also been around Jax a lot and he reminded me of another biting occurrence I totally forgot about and failed to mention. 

This friend named Chris had gone into the pasture to put his halter on and walk him to another pasture. He got the halter on with no problems, and was walking down the dirt road to the other pasture with me following about 10 yards behind. Jax seemed fine, ears up, a sway in his step, nonchalantly looking around and keeping his pace in sync with Chris. They made it about 20 yards and then, just like today, within a few seconds the ears went back, the tail went swish and he lunged at Chris walking beside him and bit his hand holding the lead rope. Without missing a beat Chris brought his boot up straight into Jax's nose. Jax threw his head up and then kept walking as if nothing had happened. He didn't try anything else for the rest of the walk. 

Perhaps he respects the authority of men a lot more, I don't know.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

If what you say is true,


mulehugger said:


> He's in with a 17 year old gelded draft mule, a 5 year old Molly mule, and a 17 year old quarter horse. I've never seen him bother any of them....


I believe, as it sounds, his behavior has to do more with his association with humans - for some reason. 

If he doesn't go over to them and "randomly", "all of a sudden", "for no reason" hauls off and bite them, then he _does know_ how to behave. Unfortunately, I guess that doesn't really matter - as it matters more so how he behaves with humans, especially if you aren't in a position to "retire" him and "put him out to pasture."

Also, if he was once as you said,


mulehugger said:


> I was really impressed with how confident and willing Jax was. He was unfazed by horses, mules, donkeys, dogs, cars, loud sounds, flashing lights, jump-scares, kids, cats, and anything else you can imagine a horse being afraid of. The horse is naturally totally desensitized, gallops to the gate to greet me, and would probably lie down in the field and snooze in my lap if I asked.
> 
> He seemed to enjoy me as much as I was starting to enjoy him, even leaving the company of my other horses to hang out with me. So, after some light groundwork, I decided to see how he would react to having a bareback rider. I got on him in the middle of a field with no tack besides a halter, and he couldn't have cared less. We walked forward, went left, went right, and stopped. I got off and all was well. I rode him with a saddle/bosal a few days later and he did the same exact thing. Two weeks later he was loaded into a trailer and brought to his permanent pasture at the barn where I ride. I rode him bareback the same night while ponied by a friend and he didn't show any signs of discomfort or aggression.
> 
> A week later... I tacked him up and with a bosal, we went on a 4.5 hour trail ride in the Missouri wilderness. After about 15 minutes he totally settled in, and soon we were jumping over embankments, crossing water, going up and down massive rocky hills, trotting, loping, and even encountered a few loud ATVs going up and down the same trail. Jax was never fazed by any of it, in fact, he seriously enjoyed it. We went a night ride a week after that in the pitch black, again in a bosal, and he was completely cool the whole time - zero baulk, zero spook and zero resistance.





mulehugger said:


> This friend named Chris had gone into the pasture to put his halter on and walk him to another pasture. He got the halter on with no problems, and was walking down the dirt road to the other pasture with me following about 10 yards behind. Jax seemed fine, ears up, a sway in his step, nonchalantly looking around and keeping his pace in sync with Chris.


He did know how to behave at one point.
Again, I guess it doesn't really matter as that is not how he is behaving now....

I don't really know why I am pointing that out as, again, it probably doesn't really matter, but that is just something that has been stuck in my mind....

Although I am not really a fan of putting down (a) horse(s) for (a) behavioral problem(s), it may sadly have to be a considerable option to do it before something "worse" happens. That "worse" could be selling him to a really cruel place (especially a place where he would be killed anyway...), you getting injured or killed, or getting yourself into a messy - and possibly expensive - lawsuit if Jax injures or kills someone, especially if that *someone* is a child.

I am really sorry you are going through this.
I wish you the best of luck.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

α CMa;1970658707 said:


> If what you say is true,
> 
> I believe, as it sounds, his behavior has to do more with his association with humans - for some reason.
> 
> ...


I have tried to respond to your posts twice and they don't seem to go through. It has happened with a few other posts on here too. I don't know if it's a character limit or what. Yes, he seems to know exactly how to behave in a herd, and he's not even at the top of the totem pole in his pasture. Maybe he feels insecure about that, and it makes him feel better when he scares the crap out of a defenseless human?? I don't know. I'm still internalizing the plethora of advice given by everyone and trying to make sense of it all. And I appreciate all of the help.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

Sheilah Kennedy said:


> ...For the OP, that experience went so well that she tacked him up. Horse is again not freaked out and kind of goes along with it all. BTW, a horse turning to sniff at the foot in the stirrup is NOT
> at all an issue. My 24 year old Arab does it all the time.


I should have explained this differently because several people have mentioned it too. When Jax did this, he wasn't just looking at or "nudging" my boot, but sort of... lipping it? The way he felt under me in the saddle and the look in his eye as he did it didn't come across to me as innocent or harmless... it looked and felt to me like vague irritation, or perhaps even a warning, or a test. When things started to go downhill with him I kept tracing the lines back to that moment, when it almost felt like he started to just THINK about biting me, even if he didn't end up doing it until later. And the correction I gave him at the time was only to gently/firmly pull his head straight with the reins - I did not hit, kick, or verbally scold him. I just showed him where I wanted his head to stay.




Sheilah Kennedy said:


> This is a young horse that has a confident, outgoing personality. He is way overfaced right now and he has no way to get any of it to stop so he is lashing out. The bite to the BO at turn out might have been a stress reaction. The cinchiness is a stress reaction to being ridden, and very possibly a stress reaction to a saddle that does not fit very well. This horse is reacting with aggression to certain situations, which is why I believe that it is a stress reaction more than him being some rogue crazy.


The stress theory is valid, but doesn't explain today when he decided to approach me from a few hundred yards away and attack me as I tried to walk across the pasture minding my own business.





Sheilah Kennedy said:


> Regarding the pictures you shared. He is a cute little snot, that is for sure. Those couple of pictures that others have commented on regarding the look in his eye? Those pictures look to me like they were taken after a ride. He seems sweaty to me, especially where the saddle would sit. He could be looking a little sour because he is way beyond his comfort zone when being ridden. I like his look, actually. I would rather have a horse with his eye on me than a horse so tuned out that they pretend you're not even there.


Those pictures were after a ride. I agree that he does look tired and ready to get back to eating as soon as possible. I also have to add that before, during, and after this ride he had the behavior of a gentleman. He stood there awhile after being untacked and I loved on him and he loved on me. That was the day I became overjoyed to own him, hence the album of pictures I took of that particular moment.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

mulehugger said:


> Yes, he seems to know exactly how to behave in a herd, and he's not even at the top of the totem pole in his pasture. Maybe he feels insecure about that, and it makes him feel better when he scares the crap out of a defenseless human??


Although some people may disagree, horses do have "egos." Now that doesn't mean an "ego" in terms of pride, what the "human ego" is, or whatever. "Ego" as in not wanting to appear weak, especially in a herd.

For example:
Horse A pushes Horse B. Horse B may go over and push a lower horse - reaffirming and showing their "status" and "strength" to the rest of the herd. Basically, Horse B is saying _to the entire herd_, "Yeah, I may have yielded to Horse A, but I am *not* weak." A lot of horses look down to weakness - as it is a liability.

Remember, _horses are always watching_. That why when going out in a herd, you have to be aware of what you are doing and what the horses are doing. I've seen and heard it happen. They try to rule over their horse like a god, but they run and yield from all the other horses when out in pasture. Their horse starts picking on them "randomly", "all of a sudden", "for no reason", when in reality, their horse saw them running from the all the other horses and wanted to see if they could get away with it.

The same thing can also happen when you are out in pasture pushing horses randomly. Horse A gets pushed (by you) so Horse A pushes Horse B. People miss that and think, "Wow! That bad, mean horse (Horse A) just bit that other horse (Horse B) for no reason!"

Sorry for the rambling. 
This probably doesn't really help you....


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

α CMa;1970658723 said:


> Although some people may disagree, horses do have "egos." Now that doesn't mean an "ego" in terms of pride, what the "human ego" is, or whatever. "Ego" as in not wanting to appear weak, especially in a herd.
> 
> For example:
> Horse A pushes Horse B. Horse may go over and push a lower horse - reaffirming their "status" and "strength." Basically, Horse B is saying _to the entire herd_, "Yeah, I may have yielded to Horse A, but I am *not* weak." A lot of horses look down to weakness - as it is a liability.
> ...


It all helps. It's all food for thought and knowledge that can benefit more people than just me and my particular situation. He's definitely not top of the totem pole, but I wouldn't say he's the bottom either. The 17 year old quarter horse is probably at the bottom, but I've never seen him pushed around by any of them. He just can't be bothered with politics.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

Knave said:


> You gave the horse a shot. He is hurting your confidence and your joy. There are lots of horses out there. Maybe this horse could work for someone and maybe he can’t. The thing is, you are valuable too. Do you want to spend the next years with this horse?
> 
> I can’t remember who said it, but this is a flashy, sound young horse that was $300 at an auction. There was a reason. I don’t think this is your fault. I also don’t think that an unbroke horse would let you go as fast as you did the way you did, and so I can see where people think you made a mistake. I just think they cannot forget that the horse was at an auction, sound and pretty and young.
> 
> There are lots of nice horses.


This is sound advice and it made me reflect for awhile. Thank you.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> OP - did you manage to get any pictures of him tacked up? Also, have you ruled out that someone could be antagonizing him when you're not around?


Not really. Here's what I found. Two are **** poor because I pulled them from video, so probably not even helpful. Also, that is my friend Chris riding him, not me.

I'm pretty confident he's not being antagonized. We are all very close at the barn and I think everyone took me seriously when I warned them.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

mulehugger said:


> The stress theory is valid, but doesn't explain today when he decided to approach me from a few hundred yards away and attack me as I tried to walk across the pasture minding my own business.


Don't really do this and don't quote me on this....

-

It would be very nice to have a _video_ of you "ignoring" him and simply cutting through his pasture so we could see how or why he acts "unprovoked."


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

Apologies to anyone else who asked questions or gave advice that I didn't reply directly to. I posted the thread, went to sleep, and woke up totally surprised to see how many responses there were. I was expecting maybe 1-4 at the most, if any at all. I won't clog up the feed by responding to them all now, but I read each one more than once and they have all been insightful and helpful. Thanks.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

α CMa;1970658745 said:


> Don't really do this and don't quote me on this....
> 
> -
> 
> It would be very nice to have a _video_ of you "ignoring" him and simply cutting through his pasture so we could see how or why he acts "unprovoked."


I agree, but after almost getting a mastectomy from him today I'm no longer willing to stick around and allow him to take another chunk out of me. I can try to get a video of him approaching me while I walk on the opposite side of the fence, or I can go into the pasture and then exit once he's within range, but I don't think that would be helpful. Bottom line is after his behavior today I'm pretty sure Jax is one lingering thought away from putting me or someone else in an early grave.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

mulehugger said:


> I shared a few responses here with my friend who has also been around Jax a lot and he reminded me of another biting occurrence I totally forgot about and failed to mention.
> 
> This friend named Chris had gone into the pasture to put his halter on and walk him to another pasture. He got the halter on with no problems, and was walking down the dirt road to the other pasture with me following about 10 yards behind. Jax seemed fine, ears up, a sway in his step, nonchalantly looking around and keeping his pace in sync with Chris. They made it about 20 yards and then, just like today, within a few seconds the ears went back, the tail went swish and he lunged at Chris walking beside him and bit his hand holding the lead rope. Without missing a beat Chris brought his boot up straight into Jax's nose. Jax threw his head up and then kept walking as if nothing had happened. He didn't try anything else for the rest of the walk.
> 
> Perhaps he respects the authority of men a lot more, I don't know.


First, I'm so sorry you're going through this. It has to be a horrible feeling when you don't even want to be near your horse, especially after he seemed to give you a glimpse of his better self. Others here are far more experienced than I am, so I don't have a whole lot of advice, but I wanted to address the last comment you made in this post. I'm not sure Jax respects men more - he did, after all, go after your friend Chris. So he didn't do it again, at least not then, but who's to say he wouldn't if he thought Chris, or someone else, was letting his guard down?

This horse is truly dangerous in the most unpredictable way. You really have a hard choice to make, but I think you already know you can't keep him.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

Acadianartist said:


> First, I'm so sorry you're going through this. It has to be a horrible feeling when you don't even want to be near your horse, especially after he seemed to give you a glimpse of his better self. Others here are far more experienced than I am, so I don't have a whole lot of advice, but I wanted to address the last comment you made in this post. I'm not sure Jax respects men more - he did, after all, go after your friend Chris. So he didn't do it again, at least not then, but who's to say he wouldn't if he thought Chris, or someone else, was letting his guard down?
> 
> This horse is truly dangerous in the most unpredictable way. You really have a hard choice to make, but I think you already know you can't keep him.


Right. The only reason I said that is because Chris has disciplined him twice for biting him and both times Jax was the one to back off. He doesn't back off with me, he just escalates the situation until we are on the brink of my demise and I'm forced to walk away before I get critically injured. If it had been me that had kicked him in the nose with my boot for biting my hand instead of Chris, I'm almost certain he would've laid me out flat right away. Right now I wouldn't call him "more safe" under x y z circumstances. After today's attack he's just flat out dangerous in my book.


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## cobra (Jan 30, 2013)

Just a couple of questions, looking for a little more info. How long have you had him? How much have you ridden him? I know you mentioned a 4 and 1/2 hr ride... Basically, my advice at this point would be to either find a good trainer to put 60 or 90 days on him - or find a trainer willing to take him, or buy him cheap, and let them work with him. It sounds like you don't have the experience to deal with issues like this horse has by yourself. 



mulehugger said:


> I should have explained this differently because several people have mentioned it too. When Jax did this, he wasn't just looking at or "nudging" my boot, but sort of... lipping it? The way he felt under me in the saddle and the look in his eye as he did it didn't come across to me as innocent or harmless... it looked and felt to me like vague irritation, or perhaps even a warning, or a test. When things started to go downhill with him I kept tracing the lines back to that moment, when it almost felt like he started to just THINK about biting me, even if he didn't end up doing it until later. And the correction I gave him at the time was only to gently/firmly pull his head straight with the reins - I did not hit, kick, or verbally scold him. I just showed him where I wanted his head to stay.
> 
> You say when he did that, you felt he was irritated and warning you... and you feel like maybe that was the start of the issues. Have you considered that he was indeed irritated and was trying to warn you? His previous owner told you he wasn't trained to ride, and even if you don't believe that he surely wouldn't be at a low level auction if he were well trained and had no issues. You have done alot with him during the time you have had him - going from leading to bareback riding to using saddle to over 4 he trail rides. He likely was feeling "confused" or frustrated or just plain worn out and tired. Saddle fit and ulcers, as mentioned by others, would be things to look at.
> 
> ...


It's is strange the change in attitude and behavior. When was this ride? How long had you had him at this time? When did you get him? If this is all happening within the span of a month or so, i would even suggest he was possibly drugged before the sale. Some last about a month. The only other thing that strikes me, is it seems most of the issues started after you moved him to the barn he is at now. Is there any possibility something is going on at this barn that could be affecting him? Whether from staff working there, or another boarder.

Bottom line, you need help dealing with these issues if you want to keep him. Having a professional trainer work with him, then with both of you together would give the best results imo. Or else look to find him a home with someone experienced enough to deal with the issues. Jmho.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

mulehugger said:


> Not really. Here's what I found. Two are **** poor because I pulled them from video, so probably not even helpful. Also, that is my friend Chris riding him, not me.
> 
> I'm pretty confident he's not being antagonized. We are all very close at the barn and I think everyone took me seriously when I warned them.


He is so cute, and that saddle does not fit him AT ALL. Send him to me.....


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

cobra said:


> Just a couple of questions, looking for a little more info. How long have you had him? How much have you ridden him? I know you mentioned a 4 and 1/2 hr ride... Basically, my advice at this point would be to either find a good trainer to put 60 or 90 days on him - or find a trainer willing to take him, or buy him cheap, and let them work with him. It sounds like you don't have the experience to deal with issues like this horse has by yourself.
> 
> 
> It's is strange the change in attitude and behavior. When was this ride? How long had you had him at this time? When did you get him? If this is all happening within the span of a month or so, i would even suggest he was possibly drugged before the sale. Some last about a month. The only other thing that strikes me, is it seems most of the issues started after you moved him to the barn he is at now. Is there any possibility something is going on at this barn that could be affecting him? Whether from staff working there, or another boarder.
> ...


I've had him for 6-7 weeks, give or take. His first ride was in the middle of a field with only a halter on and lasted 5-10 minutes. He was asked to stop, go, turn left and turn right. Then he had another ride with a saddle/bosal in a fenced area a few days later for 20-30 minutes, and he was asked to stop, go, turn left and turn right. The third ride was a week later with a saddle/bosal in the same fenced area and lasted about an hour. I mostly let him have his head and go where he wanted to - we followed a Belgian around and he took me to check out some donkeys in a yonder pasture. This was the ride where I felt like he started to just THINK about latching on to my boot a few times, and I corrected him by straightening his head with the reins. The fourth ride was bareback with only a halter again and lasted about 20 minutes in a yard with no fences. I mostly just let him eat as I sat on him. 

The next morning he bit the barn manager as she was petting him in the pasture.

Then another saddle/bosal ride down some dirt roads and at this point I was convinced I had a broke horse. His big ride came a week after that. With a saddle/bosal we rode off with 3 other horses and it lasted 3.5 hours or so if you don't count the warm-up arena laps and cool down arena laps back at the barn. This ride was long, although not really labor-intensive. We were mostly walking on flat dirt or grass and there were areas where we walked along creeks, jumped some embankments, and we had a few run-ins with ATVs. There were 2 really tall hills we climbed and went back down that were pretty rocky, but the horses got to take a breather after each one. Jax only trotted and loped when he desired. The ride wasn't meant to last over 2.5 hours, but we took a wrong turn on a trail and had to flag down an ATV to use their GPS and get back home. By the end of it he was still keeping a faster pace than the rest, and when we got back to the barn he was sweaty but in good enough spirits to let me brush him down and love on him before turning him out. 

A few days after that we went on another saddle/bosal ride, same trail although only for about 1.5 hours and only at a walk since it was dark out. He didn't fail me once this time either.

It was a few days after this ride that I was getting him tacked up and he tried take my arm off twice and reared up in my face. An hour after this happened I got on him and went back to square 1 in the arena, walking in circles and doing figure 8's. He bit my left boot 5-6 times during this. 

Then he bit Chris the same night, and then he attacked me in the pasture today, about 1.5-2 weeks later.

I can't think of anything that could be affecting him at the barn. He meshes with his pasture mates well, his pasture is 5 or so acres, he is not ridden by anyone but me and Chris, and the kids are really good about giving him plenty of distance. The barn is on over 100 acres of Missouri wilderness with no nearby traffic, roads, construction, or city noise. It is commonly referred to by everyone there as a horse's paradise.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I did not read that the OP 'invited' him into her space in the most recent pasture attack. She turne back to face him. That is all she said. she did not say she was backing away from him. Besides, any 'normal' horse can be easily dissuaded from following a backing up person by a swish of the hand. Horses can read one's intention better than we realize.


That was an unprovoked attack. nothing more nothing less. There are no circumstances that one should allow if you you walk across a pasture, and a horse follows you, and when asked to move off, he instead attacks, and tries again. This is not a matter of the OP bringing this upon herself by doping something wrong or stupid. 



The unpredictablability of this horse is the very most reason why he is so dangerous; he will lull someone into a dangerous place.


If you've never been on the ground, right next to a hosre that wants to kill you, you have no place at all offering advice on this case. I know that sounds really blunt, but I think in these rare cases, it is true.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

tinyliny said:


> I did not read that the OP 'invited' him into her space in the most recent pasture attack. She turne back to face him. That is all she said. she did not say she was backing away from him. Besides, any 'normal' horse can be easily dissuaded from following a backing up person by a swish of the hand. Horses can read one's intention better than we realize.
> 
> 
> That was an unprovoked attack. nothing more nothing less. There are no circumstances that one should allow if you you walk across a pasture, and a horse follows you, and when asked to move off, he instead attacks, and tries again. This is not a matter of the OP bringing this upon herself by doping something wrong or stupid.
> ...


Thank you. I did not take a single step away from him at any point, because I knew that backing away made me a subordinate. I also didn't have a choice but to turn and face him after "shh"ing him away, because keeping my back to him meant I had no idea when the attack was coming. I stood my ground and allowed him to approach me with no sudden movements and a soothing "Be nice, Jax." He tried to strike my leg with his foot and grabbed ahold of my upper chest. I punched him in the face and whacked him on the behind with the lead rope, and he jogged off without a care in the world. Then when I was safe inside Magnus' pasture, he walked back over and put his head over the gate that separated us with his ears pinned at me. Whether he had a reason to attack us before, he had no good reason to attack me today. That much I am sure of.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

tinyliny said:


> *If you've never been on the ground, right next to a hosre that wants to kill you, you have no place at all offering advice on this case.* I know that sounds really blunt, but I think in these rare cases, it is true.


I suppose I have no place to offer advice then....

I've worked with "dangerous" and "unpredictable", but I didn't feel like they wanted to kill me - although they very well could have. 

I'm not so sure if horses actually _want to kill_...? That's more of a predator thing.... Horses that kill usually do so out of what they feel is necessary (for survival) or out of instinct. Just as horses don't normally fighting to the death.... Horses are physically larger than us and can often out-smart a human. I'm pretty sure if a horse _wants_ you dead - you'd be dead. 

Horses are most absolutely capable of killing - and do kill, but "want" - and for "no reason"?

JMHO....


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I think you should find the horse a new home, offer him honestly and very cheaply as a young, green horse that has learned to bite. In the meantime, if you really want him to have a chance, don't handle him and leave him turned out so things don't get worse. 

If you really liked him and thought you might want to keep him, you could also treat him for ulcers for several weeks and then see if that changes anything. 

I had a mare with a strong personality. When I moved her to a new barn, she developed ulcers. She had always been one to warn people and other horses, strongly, but when she had ulcers she would actually bite or kick instead of warning. She bit me several times.

Since I'd owned her for years, I knew this was not normal for her, and it resolved when I treated her for ulcers. When I tried to ride her before I knew she had ulcers, she bolted with me at full speed, something she'd also never done before.

I know another horse that the owners were convinced had been drugged when they bought him, because he was very mellow at first and after a week had behavioral issues such as tossing his head and biting people's legs when they tried to ride him. He also was treated for ulcers, and went back to being mellow and sweet during the treatment. 

That is one thing people should understand about ulcers, that it can take a horse that is normally mellow and make them aggressive. They say the pain in the stomach is very sharp, and horses can make associations that we don't understand relating to what is causing the pain. If the pain happens when he is with humans, a young horse might relate the pain to humans and decide he wants nothing to do with them.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

α CMa;1970658839 said:


> I suppose I have no place to offer advice then....
> 
> I've worked with "dangerous" and "unpredictable", but they didn't _want_ to kill me, nor did I feel like they wanted to - although they very well could.
> 
> ...


I think every so often there is one particular horse like Jax who, for one reason or another, whether by infliction or inherited, "learn" that aggression is their preference to submission or flight - whether it's a chemical imbalance in their brain, genetic, caused by trauma, or learned from another horse, etc. I don't mean to say that one day they just suddenly think, "Ya know... I think I like kicking better than running." I think it's more like each time being aggressive yields them a successful result, it gets stored in their learned memory, thereby strengthening the neural pathways in their brain that induce the fight response, and thereby progressively weakening the neural pathways in their brain which induce the flight response... making them more likely to react with "fight" over "flight". 

I don't think a horse has the mental capacity to understand what "death" is, or to make the conscious decision to purposely "kill". I also don't think they have the mental capacity to understand that a human is more fragile than another horse - I think, to them, we're all on the same playing field. If you think of the level of aggression in a typical stallion fight, both usually walk away with minor injuries, but even one flying hoof in the right place is enough to kill any size of human. When a horse reaches this level of aggression towards a human instead of another horse, the person usually dies, but not through any real meaningful intent of the horse. BUT, if a horse did kill a human, it still yielded them a "successful" result by getting whatever pressure they felt from that human to release, therefore strengthening the neural pathways in their brain that induce the fight response... and so on, making them more and more dangerous.

Totally unrelated rambling... and obviously the inter-mechanisms of their brains are a little more complicated than that, but just intriguing to think about. Whether or not Jax wants to kill me is not important. What matters is that not only can he kill me, but that he's associating aggression with a release from pressure - even when that pressure is something as minor as watching me walk across the pasture.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Horses do occasionally attack with more than immediate survival as their motivator. But I think it connects in the same place in the brain. I mean, they will stomp a snake to death. They've been known to stomp dogs to death. I once saw a photo 'essay' on Facebook that showed how a mule had stomped a mountain lion to death. (not photoshopped).


I saw a video of a bucking horse, in a rodeo, who reached around and grabbed the ankle of his rider, pulled him off and proceeded to 'toss' him around by his ankle, like a toy. I kinda think that horse wanted, more than to get the man off his back, to kill him if he could.


I've seen video of stallions killing the foals of other stallions, in the wild. they bit them and thrash them around and stomp on them. It's gruesome.


Horses may not have a concept of 'death', but they do know "I'm going to stomp this thing util it stops moving!~"


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> If you've never been on the ground, right next to a hosre that wants to kill you, you have no place at all offering advice on this case. I know that sounds really blunt, but I think in these rare cases, it is true.


I get your point, but disagree with this opinion.(As serious aggression is rare, I would assume that most who have commented here haven't been in that situation _personally_) I feel a lot of valuable comments have been made nevertheless. I've worked with biters, but I for one, have not worked with a truly aggressive horse either(if you don't count a racing colt I rode that I had no clue of the danger at the time - he took out another strapper later in the piece). I have only 'fence sat' with a trainer on a couple of times that was known for his 'knack' with horses who had been made aggressive(& he did it very quietly, without punishment, explaining to me the danger of trying to 'fight fire with fire'). It is _my_ opinion that sharing this knowledge is _not _useless, just because I wasn't the one in the pen.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Mulehugger - if I may share:

I actually have had three horses bought from an auction.

Leroy - there's a photo of him in my album, the only palomino you'll see there.

Our friend who bought Trigger works at the local livestock auction. They have a sale every Monday.

This horse turns up and he's being sold by a local guy who we also know. He is MASSIVE. I mean a giant of a man. His real name is one thing, everyone just calls him Bear. For a reason. Bear's wife worked at the courthouse. Bear is a rider of Mules. BIG mules. His wife is a lifelong rider of horses. Their kids ride. Their grandkids ride. They are far from inexperienced with their equines.

Leroy was named Trigger before I got him. I changed his name to Leroy, but that's because I still had my Trigger and was on the fence about just selling him and being done with him. Leroy's story was that he was there because the granddaughter wanted a faster horse. She'd outgrown him. (That story is like the 1 owner was an Old Man who can't drive anymore when it comes to buying a used car, btw. It's what they tell you to sell it)

Leroy didn't sell at Monday's auction. No one wanted him. No one bid on him.

Our friend called, said hey, from what I can tell, he's a good horse. Just no one comes here to buy horses, they come here to buy cows. If you want him, his reserve was 400.00. I can get the owner to sell him to you for 400 cash. We go to look at him, meet him, and he's in this horribly muddy pen, caked in mud. He was on the thin side, and didn't seem sociable, but it was understandable.

I took him home with me. We got him home, cleaned him up and I found the worst scars under the mud. One fetlock was deeply cut and infected - why he wasn't limping I'll never know. He was indeed low weight for him.

I spent two weeks nursing him back to full speed. He was loving and affectionate - even going so far as to come up to me in the pasture and gently rest his head on my shoulder and dose as I sat on the back corner of our car haul trailer (which is permanently parked along the fence in the 5 acre pasture.

I loved Leroy. i was horrified at the scars, the cuts, the overall condition of this loving horse.

Leroy was also huge, might I mention. 

I found his original breeder, a backyard breeder who lives locally. She also adored Leroy when he was born. She adored him way, way too much. She waited till he was five FIVE to teach him ANYTHING. This means he was taught absolutely NO manners, no etiquette. Nothing when it came to behaving himself in relation to humans. Nadda. He was 'her baby' and he could do no wrong, ever.

Original breeder finally tries to teach him something, tries for two years, ends up selling him due to a divorce (The rest I found out later - and sells him because, surprise surprise - he doesn't want to listen to her and with now limited land resources, she had to choose between 'her baby' and less monstrous horse that would listen to her).

Previous owners - I visited with the wife at the courthouse one day while I was over there as part of my own day job.

Wife said: OH you have him now! I'm so glad he went to a good home! We keep talking, me thinking in the back of my mind My God what did they do him? The scars looked like whip marks, then there's the infected fetlock and frog I had to clean mud and pus out of...

Leroy is (Present tense) food aggressive. He's a big spoiled titbag.... thanks to the breeder treating him like her baby, not a baby that would one day weigh 1200 lobs and have the intelligence of a human toddler.

His wounds were from bulling all their horses off their feed, constantly. He even bit Bear. Bit him badly and shook him and tried to throw him. But bear is like the local Mountain that Rides. Bear punched him and like in Blazing Saddles, almost laid him out. After that, Leroy was even MORE aggressive to everyone that got near the trough. I couldn't go out there and feed without risking life and limb because they'd all get into a knock down drag out while I was trying to put the feed out.

Finally, they got that new horse granddaughter had wanted... new horse was bigger, badder, and prepared to fight Leroy to the end... and Leroy's injuries were all because he finally got his butt whipped, daily, by a horse that was having none of it.


He ate so much here that he was fat and sassy - my other horses were starting to look a little slatty. 

When we'd ride him, he was a pig headed, straight line thinker that thought because a cow trail led under a honey locust, he too HAD TO STAY ON THE TRAIL. Nevermind the human about to get a face full of toxic locust thorns. He would fight me so hard he would klutz around and FALL ON HIS FACE or go to his knees because he would focus on me and the direction I wanted him to go (SO I DIDN'T GET HUNG UP IN A BOIS D'ARC TREE) rather than where his feet were going. First time I rode it out fine. Second time we were in thick scrub oaks and all I could think of when I realized he was going down and I couldn't stay on was to get my boots out of the stirrups so I didn't get stuck... and to come off on the side AWAY from the tree he was falling towards. He could have pinned me and crushed me and we were miles and miles from EMS services and had no phone signal.

He would start walking toward a tree, and rather than listen to whoever was riding, he'd plow right into it, fighting them all the way. I mean just bash his face into the trunk, then he'd look around like where the heck did that come from! Wow rider, you are a moron! You could have told me I was about to bash my face into an oak tree! 

So, I got enough of him... had him for sale, bought Sarge (still had Trigger) That's my three auction horses btw. SARGE, despite quarantine and passing a cursory vet exam, having all his vet cleared papers when sold, brought home a nasty cold. ALL MY HORSES GOT IT. And LOST WEIGHT, ran fever, had coughs and snots for a week. Including Leroy.

Leroy finally looked like a picket fence he lost so much weight, despite me feeding them up. My cousins daughter who rides with us wanted Leroy. She bought him looking like puke and recovering from a cold - so a few weeks go by, she doesn't ride him to let him recover.

She starts riding him... and has hell with him too.

That was two years ago. She works on a big cattle ranch. She took him there, with the ranch foreman's permission to ride and work cattle from every single day, twice a day. She's good to horses, and she's getting better with each month that passes, so Leroy's effort was rewarded... if he tried.

Thing is, he never tried. He acted resentful and spoiled, and still food aggressive. And getting fat. Out there, he had his own turnout and night stall... he was put to work daily... and gotten into shape... but still a PIG to ride.

She had a chocolate brown/bleached black filly a local horse 'breaker' wanted. He offered to trade him getting Leroy truly lined out for the filly, which she wanted gone anyway.

He called her two weeks ago and said: MY GOD can that *(^&*%)*&%(&%^ BUCK. I've never been on a horse that would come AFTER you once you were on the ground, and I'm a bronc livestock contractor!

Leroy would buck him off... and then come at him to stomp him into pudding. He still snakes and bites and fights his rider.

He's probably going on 10 or 12 now.

Until she got that call from that guy, I was feeling pretty discouraged regarding Leroy, despite my success getting through to Trigger in the meantime and learning how to handle him and 'bring him back to me when he overreacts. I felt Leroy was my failure, my fault. I should have been able to get through to him, I should have been able to fix him (Despite my complete lack of experience with horses at the time, might I mention)

But after two years of my cousin's daughter trying her best, the ranch foreman helping and trying, and now a guy that rides horses all day, every day, saying there's a problem here, he will not change, I felt a little better. I wasn't me. It was that horse.

Now, was he made into that by his first owner, the breeder, pampering him and being permissive and teaching him he can behave like a hardheaded pig and get dangerous when told no, we're doing it my way? Or was he born like that? 

I don't know the answer to that, but this is about you and you feeling down and discouraged.

Don't. 

This horse may just be like he is and there's nothing anyone can do. He may be a product of breeding or he may be a product of his raising, but like my Leroy, I think you need to sell him to someone far more experienced and let them try to sort him out. With his coloring and markings, his youthful age, I think there will be a horse flipper out there willing to try to correct his attitude and make a ride out of him.... but. be. honest with potential buyers. Be candid, be brutally honest if you must, but don't fob him off on someone else by using half-truths. I think he'll sell and I think there will be someone out there who has the ability to try to correct him that will want him.

Keep your chin up - as said in this thread: There are a LOT of nice horses out there.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

PS My experience with Leroy is why I said I'd 10xs... no... 100xs... rather deal with a horse like Trigger, who is nervous, hot, reactive, untrusting, but doesn't have a mean bone in him, than a pig who can get you hurt because he won't listen and won't respect you. 

Trigger is probably crazy as a bag of cats - but he's consistent and he'll LISTEN to me. I know his currency, I found the keys to unlock him but he'll always be seriously flawed and emotionally damaged... but he LISTENS and he's consistent. He's super polite with his manners - even offering treats? He'll delicately pluck them from your fingers and if his teeth ever even slightly graze fingers, he'll 'retreat' and look terribly apologetic until you reassure him that no, you're fine, no really, please, this carrot is for you, sir.

Leroy was a disrespectful pig that taught me sometimes a horse may be sweet on the ground, but will tear you up at the feed trough or crush you if he throws himself down like a toddler having a fit - because that's what he was doing. Sometimes riding a horse isn't fun at all... I had to fight him every single moment I was on him and made me tense and angry and irritable, which only fed into him and made him even worse under saddle.... and that's not what riding horses or being in their company is about... for you, or the horse.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

That is so much like Keno @AtokaGhosthorse. My friend bought him and immediately said, “I hate him. He’s lazy as can be and I cannot get him to do anything.” I said, “Well, for $1500 I can take and make a good kids horse or turn him if he’s just a lazy three year old.” That was the plan.

I bought him sight unseen. She is convinced he was drugged and even talked to her vet about it, as she has sold many horses in her day, and wouldn’t have intentionally screwed over a friend in such a way. 

When I first went to saddle him he struck at me. I wacked him, a bit surprised, but not terribly worried. When I stepped into the saddle he tried everything in his power to crawl up there with me and drag me off. I was even more surprised at that. I’d never seen anything like it. I managed to get through it in any case and realized I needed to come at this horse with a different mindset than lazy kids’ horse prospect. 

He was crazy talented. As I made myself push through his bs each day, I quickly had him with a decent spin and a heck of a slide. I got him over trying to attack me on his back, and I got him over throwing himself down when asked to do something he didn’t appreciate. Bucking was a quick fix. I knew he’d go after me if he got me off, but as talented athlete as he was, he wasn’t particularly good at bucking. I kept seeing progress, and like I said, he was uber talented. I even started him on cows, and again his talent was shocking. Just natural talent, not prior.

The horse, in the mean time, came at me with a new plan every day. If one tantrum didn’t work he would continue it until he was positive it didn’t. The next day he would have a different plan, finding some weakness in my defense. He was an intention run away. He would pick out an object and run directly towards it. When I picked up his head he’d bury it into his belly. He was going to kill us both, but he was going to win. 

I kept managing a new trick. I did everything I knew, except for letting him take whatever he was running at. I do not have that little appreciation for life. I never took him to work for that reason. I couldn’t guarantee I could stop him before he killed us. After six months I just couldn’t face it another day. I was going to put him down, because I knew he would kill someone.

My friend is a wildcard. He’s also a good horseman, and he was in desperate need of a cowboy horse. He shows too, and he wanted to look at the horse. I told him it all. He knows how I ride too. He said he’d try, and when he got on him the horse tried each of his tricks, and my friend responded exactly how I had to them. He quickly realized they didn’t work with him either, and landed back on trying to run into something. He tried at least 20 times. My friend barely managed through them. 

On the other side he showed him also the talent. He was like a switch. He would go from friendly, athletic and gentle, to these massive temper tantrums. It was just like that. The talent intrigued my friend and he took him. The horse as kind as could be on the ground was trying to steal the cowboy hat off his head as he loaded him in the trailer. He shook his head and laughed. It was an oddity. He planned on running him into a wall.

He did it as far as I know. He came to the conclusion the horse couldn’t be ridden inside, and eventually he got rid of him for outside too. He was going to kill someone. Some other guy came along and wanted to give him another shot. I don’t know if he’s given up on him yet or not. 

He also was super mean in the corral to other horses. I think he had been incredibly spoiled. It was too bad. He could have really been something special. 

It was very discouraging. I had to let go of my pride in so many ways. I had to let go of what could be with him too. I don’t regret getting rid of Keno. I do regret buying him. I could really use that money. Lol. I understand why no one takes on junk now too, although a lazy horse still wouldn’t be too bad I don’t think. 

In the situation of a horse that actually attacks someone, I’d have shot him myself as soon as I saw it happen.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Preface: I don't mean to thread drift. I'm sharing what I've been told and experienced, at this point, in the hopes Mulehugger/OP will feel less discouraged.



Sounds JUST like him Knave. Leroy was well built and Bear and his wife kept him in great shape for eventing and trail riding, despite his attitude. Once he got fed up, he was built like a tank, muscle-wise. He just... well. He was a spoiled jerk, but also the Homer Simpson of horses. He wasn't super intelligent, about as sharp as a box of rocks.

I really didn't know horses could throw themselves down in the midst of a tantrum. He would constantly fall down while fighting whoever was riding him, or come close enough to nearly jar them out of the saddle. I mean he'd go down like a felled oak. WHUMP, and then flop around...

I only put it together that it was a tanty when my riding partner told me about HER barrel horse doing that. He started fighting her, just falling down and wallowing around before getting up. She recognized he was massively talented, but beyond even her skills. She sent him to a woman here that trains barrel horses and pole benders. She called my friend one day and said Uh. I may have killed your horse...

Peso would throw himself down with her on him, and then have his fit. THIS day, he tried combining it with bucking high in the air, then coming down to have a massive toddler fit. THIS day, she wasn't in the saddle when he did it - It was round pen work. He landed so hard he winded himself, laid there moaning and groaning, in obvious pain, for about five minutes.

That was the last time he ever had a throw myself down fit, ever... he hurt himself and was at least smart enough to realize the only thing he accomplished was just that - he hurt himself... and still got put to work the second he was back on his feet.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

greentree said:


> He is so cute, and that saddle does not fit him AT ALL. Send him to me.....



Here is your "out." Put him on a truck.


I am constantly amazed at the people on this forum. Their knowledge, experiences, solutions. My time with horses over the decades has been one of constant learning. Every horse has taught me something. Some horses have been challenging and I learned the most from them. I have also learned that I am not unbreakable and staying healthy and upright is the most desirable.
If you think there is a chance for this horse, I'd have him professionally evaluated. If you think he really is a disaster waiting, I'd have a hard time passing him on to anyone who was not fully qualified to take him. The option would be a tough one.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I haven't read the latter pages - I didn't reply earlier as I wanted to see why others had to say!

So, regarding the biting. 

I have come across a few horses that bite, I am not talking about a nip but a true, grab, slake and pull. Dangerous stuff. 

The worse was a pony in the riding school I started at. No one was allowed to mount or dismount him without a senior person holding his head. 
There was no telling when he would bite, he might not do it for months and then start again. 

_There was no warning that he was going to do it. You could be offering him a carrot and he would move to your hand to take it and then change his mind and bite._ he never did it in the field nor did he ever attack anyone in the field. 

He bit me one day getting a hanky stuffed up the sleeve of a sweater I wasn't supposed to be wearing tonthe stables. I was so mad and having seen him hit for biting took another way and grabbing his ear I bit him on it, not a nip but a real molar bite. He swung around away from me squealing like a pig, and I held on, drawing blood. He never tried to bite me again and I used him as a games pony for years. 

Other ponies in the same riding school would become biters in the summer from people titbiting them. I saw one pony go for a woman carrying a small child which he made contact with. The woman was carrying a bag and I am sure he thought she was slow in treating him. 

I have also come across dangerous horses at were not afraid to take on a human. When a horse coming at you punching its front legs out and open mouthed made me wonder if I was in the right business! 

One was put down, he was seriously dangerous and tried killing an experienced race lad. The last one was a few years ago and was a warm blood mare belonging to a dressage rider. I took her when the owner was in a car wreck and everyone else in the area was 'fully boooked'. In reality they all knew how bad she was. Even if I had it would have made no difference, I love a challenge. 

Even the guy who delivered her to me warned me she was dangerous. I turned her out with two brood mares, their foals were weaned. That night I went to feed them using the ATV and as I got off the bike so she came at me, chesting and bending the gate. Had she got hold of me I would have been seriously injured. 

I turned the bike around, drove back to the barn and picked up my twitch which was made from a broken pitchfork handle , about 4' long. 

When she came at the gate on my return I brought that twitch down as hard as I could using both hands, down the front of her face. She galloped off and stood watching, shaking her head and yawning. 
I drove into the field and fed. She followed the other two amd when I approached her she galloped off. 

To cut a long stripy short, I soon had the respect of this mare. I never had to whack her again. I found the reason for her behaviour was mental stress. Got rid of that and she was great. 

Now, I think Jax has had. Lot of stress in the months you have had him. He has probably gotmaway with frightening people, as had the mare above, and until he is made to realise that this behaviour is NEVER. allowed, he will continue to do it. 

My advice would be to either have him euthanised or send him to someone who really has experience with this sort of animal.


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## MustangMom (Jun 22, 2018)

Lots of reading here.

To the Original Poster:
You are a smart cookie, I can tell you understand what people are saying and you have the knowledge in you to know what the horse is saying and you know how to communicate with the horse as well.

You are afraid of the horse. I would be too if he did those things to me! I have a fear of riding right now, I was dumped several times (the last time put me in the ER with a punctured lung!) EVERY time I go to get on a horse my heart pounds out of my chest!! I have to relax a few mins. I did not get back on a horse for several years and even now I have only been on a horse a few times but the few times were on horses I KNOW in my head are totally safe.

Again my suggestion for you to go handle and ride a good calm horse you know and you can get the pleasure from horses back again! Your brain works the way you are explaining about the horses brain. You are making those pathways more solid as you keep trying to deal with this horse. I think you know that you are not the right person to deal with this horse. Some people are better at it or have the time and energy to deal with this.

I know people have good intentions trying to give you the suggestions and explanations on how they would deal with the horse. All horses are different and react in a different way. People gave me lots of suggestions how to deal with my rescue horse and they were all things I knew about and had used with other horses but these same tactics were not working with THIS horse. I am glad I have her and she is not aggressive (although she did turn her butt to me the other day!) But if she had ever shown me half of the aggression this horse has shown you, I would have been done! 

Again I have horses and I think most people have horses because they enjoy being with them, working with them, and playing with them. This horse has ruined that relationship with him at this point. If you were in an abusive relationship with a human, would you keep trying to fix it and analyse all the interactions to see what you could have done wrong and what you could have done different and then keep subjecting yourself to the relationship to see if you could make it better? Some people do! I would not! 

I am glad you have kept "inquiring minds" updated on your situation. Please let us know what your eventual decision is. I think you have made it, you just need to stop trying to find a loop hole, sometimes there just isn't one! Let it go and move on to something that will give you the enjoyment everyone wants with these four hoofed critters!


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

I've had 2 really mean horse's last one I owned I raised. 

Moral of story is I won't waste my time on mean attack you kind of horse's. Just not worth the risk, you'll never be able to trust them. Life's to short to own horse's like that. 

I know way to many who have bought from low end auction. End up with mentally messed up horse's beyond repair. They sell dirt cheap for a reason. 

I personally won't buy from low end auctions, good percent of those horse should be going to kill. 

Op that horse would be gone if in my yard. Not sold to someone else so he could possibly seriously hurt or kill them. I'd make sure he got a one way ride to slaughter, Or he'd be shot. 

Might sound harsh but you can't replace a human life. You can replace a horse.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I have been riding for over 50 years. I have been bucked off, stomped, kicked, run away with, everything but this.

Do you think he could be proud cut? One retained testicle left inside? If you want to do anything other than sell him or put him down, you can have his testosterone levels checked. Assuming he doesn't kill the vet. If he has a retained testicle and was sold as a gelding, he may be a coming of age stallion. Cryptorchid surgery is very expensive. It would probably cost more than this horse is worth even if he behaves well. 

*You were casually walking through his pasture and he tried to kill you. He might kill you. He might paralyze you. He might rip off your face. He could cause you permanent disability.*

There are a lot of really nice horses out there. This horse is insane.

No horse is worth what your life and health is worth. 

Besides, this is supposed to be fun. I don't think he is any fun.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I'm not saying the OP or anyone in particular should work with this horse. However, I think there are quite a few things to evaluate and try before putting the horse down. That would not be fair to do until ruling out some things in my opinion, since this is a young horse.

Yes, a horse can kill a person. All our horses could by accident. It becomes more dangerous if the horse is intentionally connecting with teeth or hooves. However, there are many levels to biting and kicking, so I can't say most horses that bite or kick should be put down. They do need to be placed with experienced horse people who can deal with the behavior. My TB bit and kicked me when I got him, I've had him a year and now he's stopped kicking and only bites rarely. 

I've been around people who put down horses because they thought them dangerous, and to me it did not seem necessary. One woman was frustrated because her horse reared on occasion. He was a smart, sane horse and she kept him in a stall, fed him tons of grain, stacked up his hooves and then when she took him out of the stall he was all hyped up. He was obedient and well trained, and was amazingly well mannered for a hot horse kept in those conditions. But she put him down.

Another horse was kept in a stall for six months, then taken out for a six hour ride. When he refused to go forward, they forced him on and he went over backwards, badly injuring his rider who put him down. It bothers me when people consider horses dangerous after setting them up for failure.

I've been around many horses that bit, but two who were trying to harm people badly. There is a big difference, as @Foxhunter says. Many horses bite or kick pretty hard, and it is either defensive or trying to teach the person a lesson such as to get out of their space. That is different from those who are trying to harm, because they will go for kill strikes and not stop when pressure is let off. Horses do know, I've seen them roll dogs versus trying to kill a dog with a head strike. 

Neither of the two serious biters I knew were lost causes.
One horse I know was abused badly, and decided all humans were evil. She would try to bite any person within range, immediately, hard, and not as a warning. A vet developed trust with her, after a long time and she brought her to a secluded farm with one other horse, and provided all her care. 

The second one stopped biting after about a year of handling with very experienced people who always handled her with appropriate caution and watchfulness. If we went in her field, we were armed with lunge whips and such, and taught her to be caught without harming the handler. It was basically "try again," and we sent her away if she tried using her teeth or hooves. When she was behaving nicely, she was rewarded with treats. You had to tie her short and never turn your back, or get chomped. Eventually, she became quite trustworthy. She was young, and needed firm boundaries. We knew her history, and this was just her personality. She'd never been spoiled or handled, just turned out with a large herd. She almost got her teeth around my throat one time, but a friend saved me by pulling me back through a door by my shirt. 

Even though you feel being around the horse is risking your life, there are people who could provide the horse with the right parameters and boundaries to handle him in what they would consider adequate safety. An experienced horse person who has worked with other biters might consider him a medium case rather than a difficult one, especially if he is fairly calm and doesn't get hysterical naturally. I am hoping you can find that type of situation for him.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

SOMEONE needs a comeing to jesus moment! Odie got a bit aggressive (happens when people hand feed him treats). This will sound bad but i beat the ever loveing SNOT out of that horse! the leather from the end of the lead rope took hide with it. i ran him untill he nearly dropped. If he so much as pins his ears at me he will be missing hide. i WILL draw blood. He charged at me and tried to bite me a hand full of times. After the last time where i was convinced he would either learn or drop dead, he came out alive. And guess who is a snuggle bug and sweetheart? guess who also has signs on his stall about no treats? his behavior also greatly improved with an adjustment.

If you WANT to work with this horse he needs a couple things. Vet to look him over (blood test to see if he has a retained testical as that could very well be it. If its inside the body cavity its creating 3X the amount of testosterone then it should and that makes them nutters) see if he needs adjusted etc. Then have a experienced trainer or someone who is experienced go with you and help you gather him up and put him in a round pen and do ground work with him to gain his respect. This is also to push him to do something "stupid" again. be ready and again this sounds mean but he is 1000+lbs, BEAT the ever loving crap out of him with a lunge whip of leather ended lead! chase him with a whit and take HIDE off him! at least untill he seams to be thinking and looking at you with some semblance or respect. if you where another horse he would get a kick to the face. Once he has had a good heartattack and is willing to think and realize you are crazy, try and get him to work with you again. if he acts aggressively repeat. Once he is done acting a fool you can love on him and teach him you are not mean, but if he acts aggressive he will regret it.

This is assuming there is NOT a medical reason behind it. If this dose not work and he is just determined to be a nasty thing i would find a cowboy who likes mean nasty rank things to ride, or put him down. sounds cruel but its better than being neglected or him hurting someone.

i normally dont recommend this but he came after you unprovoked. Odie was being either food aggressive, trying to attack me because i refused to or had no treats for him, or told him what to do. he only ever bit me once because when i swing to hit something i dont miss and i knew he was coming. He was not a mean horse and still is not. he just got too big for his pants and needed reminding that he was NOT in charge and he will stand in the corner under fear of the leather on the lead of he acted up at food time. just like my dogs i made him stand in the corner of his stall untill i said he could come and eat. Now the ranch had says he wont even pin his ears at him at meal times and stands back a respectable distance. And odie is not head shy or jumpy. he is not afraid of me or anyone with a whip or lead rope. BUT when he nips at me (on the rare occasion) he jumps back and hides in the corner because he KNOWS he messed up even before i can react. caugh someone feeding him treats again and i reamed them. magicalt his behavior has improved within the last month.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

KigerQueen said:


> Odie got a bit aggressive (happens when people hand feed him treats). This will sound bad but i beat the ever loveing SNOT out of that horse! the leather from the end of the lead rope took hide with it. i ran him untill he nearly dropped. If he so much as pins his ears at me he will be missing hide. i WILL draw blood.


When you say "he got a bit [as in 'a little bit' (small amount)] aggressive", is that a euphemism... or an understatement... or a misunderstanding (on my part)...?

When you say "i beat the ever loveing SNOT out of that horse! the leather from the end of the lead rope took hide with it. i ran him untill he nearly dropped. If he so much as pins his ears at me he will be missing hide. i WILL draw blood", do you mean that more figuratively (dramatically) or more literally...? 

I wasn't there....
I don't know you, your horse, or the situation....
Perhaps it's just me being picky....
Perhaps it is just your wording....

But actually "_beat the ever loveing SNOT out of that horse! the leather from the end of the lead rope took hide with it. i ran him untill he nearly dropped [for being 'a bit aggressive']. If he so much as pins his ears at me he will be missing hide. i WILL draw blood._" - that... hmmm... doesn't seem... quite... right...?
JMHO....

I'm sorry if there is a misunderstanding.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

KigerQueen said:


> Then have a experienced trainer or someone who is experienced go with you and help you gather him up and put him in a round pen and do ground work with him to gain his respect. This is also to push him to do something "stupid" again. be ready and again this sounds mean but he is 1000+lbs, BEAT the ever loving crap out of him with a lunge whip of leather ended lead! chase him with a whit and take HIDE off him! at least untill he seams to be thinking and looking at you with some semblance or respect. if you where another horse he would get a kick to the face. Once he has had a good heartattack and is willing to think and realize you are crazy, try and get him to work with you again. if he acts aggressively repeat. Once he is done acting a fool you can love on him and teach him you are not mean, but if he acts aggressive he will regret it.
> 
> If this dose not work and he is just determined to be a nasty thing i would find a cowboy who likes mean nasty rank things to ride...


Yeahhhh....
I don't know....

Maybe that's necessary... and I'm just naive.... Does it really matter...? 
Whether you "BEAT the ever loving crap out of him with a lunge whip of leather ended lead! chase him with a whit and take HIDE off him! ... find a cowboy who likes mean nasty rank things to ride..." or put him down - either way, he is, unfortunately, still paying the price for someone else's mistakes. 
Which one is the "lesser of the two evils"?
Which one is best for the horse?
Which on is best for the human(s)?

Complex (and subjective) questions often do not have simple, "pretty" answers....


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

when you have 1100lb of 16.2hh horse charge you and try to bite you and stomp on you i think that warrants them thinking they will die. im not saying beat a tied up horse with a pole. but if you can reach it with the lead or lunge whip in the round pen its fair game to whack and HARD. Odie is only aggressive when fed treats. i do not understand why thats what triggers feral stud behavior but he gets dangerous. if that's not happening he is dog tame and a sweetheart. the time im referring to with "beating the snot" out of him with the lead was in his stall and i was going to feed him. he charged me into a corner and came at me with full intent to bite my face. leading up to this he kept running me over while leading regardless or being corrected or not. he had tried to bite me several times. tried to kick me a few while leading. basically acting like a mean no manners underhanded 2 year old stud colt who should have lost his balls months prior. and he was 10 at the time.

i came a bit unglued and if i could reach it i hit it with the lead. took hide off his chest and neck. got him off me quick. took him to the round pen to lunge him. same behavior. i ran him untill he did not want to move. if i got so much as a dirty look out of him the lead left marks on his rear and around he went. he is a BIG STRONG HORSE. I am tiny compared to him. he can kill me without trying. i cannot kill him with just a whip or lead rope. i can cause pain but not kill him. i NEVER let ANY horse get away with aggressive behavior. EVER! that's how people get crippled or killed. we raised this horse. he has no reason to behave this way. Now that i have established that under so uncertain terms is he to behave this way we have no issues. when he gets snippy from being fed treats he curbs his behavior a bit because he REMEMBERS what happens when he acts aggressive. 

A human life is important and worth more than a rank horse. sometimes the horse needs to realize the person is crazy and CAN cause pain to them and make them move is enough to stop the dangerous behavior. this horse came after op in a field. not his stall, not his personal space, not while tied. while he had all the places to get away from her. HE made an active choice to go out of his way and try to attack her. he could have killed her right then and there and not a single person could have stopped it before it was too late. I normally dont "hit" my horses and there are ways to train without using force like that. i do liberty with my other horses. But there is a line. this is not a 5lb dog or a 8lb cat acting like this. this is a 1000+lb animal that could kill you on ACCIDENT, much less intentionally.

so yes. extremely violent reactions will come out of me AND my fiance with aggressive behavior. dogs who bite get put down because the danger they are. Horses like OPs are the same cloth. you CAN fix them. but with horses you cant just use a catch pole and two people. you outweigh a dog, not a horse.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

KigerQueen said:


> when you have 1100lb of 16.2hh horse charge you and try to bite you and stomp on you i think that warrants them thinking they will die. im not saying beat a tied up horse with a pole. but if you can reach it with the lead or lunge whip in the round pen its fair game to whack and HARD.


I understand. I probably even agree to that....

But,


KigerQueen said:


> Odie is only aggressive when fed treats. i do not understand why thats what triggers feral stud behavior but he gets dangerous. if that's not happening he is dog tame and a sweetheart. the time im referring to with "beating the snot" out of him with the lead was in his stall and i was going to feed him. he charged me into a corner and came at me with full intent to bite my face. leading up to this he kept running me over while leading regardless or being corrected or not. he had tried to bite me several times. tried to kick me a few while leading. basically acting like a mean no manners underhanded 2 year old stud colt who should have lost his balls months prior. and he was 10 at the time.


sounds a little contradictory, in my opinion.
"Odie is _only aggressive_ when fed treats. if that's not happening he is dog tame and a sweetheart."
and
"leading up to this he kept running me over while leading regardless or being corrected or not. he had tried to bite me several times. tried to kick me a few while leading. basically acting like a mean no manners underhanded 2 year old stud colt who should have lost his balls months prior. and he was 10 at the time."

I'm a little confused....



KigerQueen said:


> i came a bit unglued and if i could reach it i hit it with the lead. took hide off his chest and neck. got him off me quick. took him to the round pen to lunge him. same behavior. i ran him untill he did not want to move. if i got so much as a dirty look out of him the lead left marks on his rear and around he went.


While I am glad that you "got him off of [you] quick and that you weren't hurt, that second half... doesn't seem... quite right....
After "beating the snot" out of him with the lead was in his stall" (for charging [you] into a corner and came at [you] with full intent to bite [your] face), and you "got him of of [you] quick" (he yielded to you), you still took him into the round pen and ran him until he "nearly dropped dead"?



KigerQueen said:


> i NEVER let ANY horse get away with aggressive behavior. EVER! that's how people get crippled or killed.


I agree to that. That's also how horses get put down....



KigerQueen said:


> we raised this horse. he has no reason to behave this way.


If you "raised this horse", then why is he acting that way "for no reason"? That, in my opinion, doesn't make a lot of sense. "Bad horses aren't born - they are made."



KigerQueen said:


> Now that i have established that under so uncertain terms is he to behave this way we have no issues. when he gets snippy from being fed treats he curbs his behavior a bit because he REMEMBERS what happens when he acts aggressive.
> Odie is [present tense] only aggressive when fed treats.


That also sounds somewhat contradictory....



KigerQueen said:


> sometimes the horse needs to realize the person is crazy and CAN cause pain to them and make them move is enough to stop the dangerous behavior....


-

I'm sorry. I didn't say those things to be argumentative. I said those things as a food for though and possibly a warning for the O.P..

Jax doesn't sound like your atypical "aggressive" horse....


AnitaAnne said:


> Have you ever heard of abused people or pets turning into abusers? Because IMO this horse was taught to bite by people, and you have inadvertently reinforced that training.


 could be possible. A lot of horses, as a prey animal, take flight or freeze over fight. A lot of horses that choose fight over flight or freeze do so because they are taught (uh... maybe not stallions), as a lot of people said. 

I'm just saying to be careful. Is "giving that horse a CTJM, beat the ever loving snot out of that horse, and run that horse until he nearly drops dead" a good decision? 
Maybe?
Maybe not?
Would that fix his behavior?
Would that make his behavior worse?

-

What is different between when he is with the others out in pasture and with humans? (This isn't necessarily a rhetorical question - I am genuinely asking.)
He is fine out in pasture (yields and/or ignores the others), but he fights back when with humans....
Did the others "give him a CTJM, beat the ever loving snot out of him, and run him until he nearly drops dead"? Perhaps...?
Perhaps they are doing something that we, as humans, missed...?
I don't know....


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

α CMa;1970659507 said:


> Jax doesn't sound like your atypical "aggressive" horse....


OOF.
Double negative.

Correction.
"Jax doesn't sound like your typical "aggressive" horse...."


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I haven't had a chance to read through all the pages, but I agree with @AtokaGhosthorse.

I don't think you should send him back, or put him down...give him a chance. Who knows what his past was? Or who knows how he was trained? 

I'd take a step back, actually, a few steps back, and just get to know him...hangout, groom him, etc. He needs to learn to trust you, and know you aren't a threat. It sounds like he is trying to protect himself maybe?

Of course, biting is NOT acceptable.

How is he with other horses? I agree, he may need to be put in a field with horses that are more 'higher up' in the herd and it'll humble him a bit. 

Do you have a trainer who can work with you, ha, send him right to mine and she will get rid of that biting nonsense quickly, no doubt.

My old friend's horse, Trigger (LOL @AtokaGhosthorse, same name as yours!) used to bite. When being groomed, even when someone would walk by him. It was bad.

It turns out he was super mouthy because people would feed him treats all the time, and let him get away with the behavior. So, he thought oh, people = treats. He was sooo mouthy. And he bit HARD! Never was corrected.
Sounds silly, but it's true. He was reprimanded every time he even thought about biting. It was not easy to stay patient or calm, but my friend and I had to. We worked through it. When we groomed him, we would do everything calmly and if he didn't react, we'd just stop and tell him he was a good boy and pet him. Coax him with our voices. Little 'wins'.
If he tried to turn around and nip, he'd get an elbow to the face. Had to be QUICK! Couldn't act afraid of him or anything.

It took months, but he finally wasn't 'mouthy' and nippy. 

AND, he was 14 years old. Not a baby! 

You're dealing with a 5yr old. I honestly think he CAN be helped...just not sure if you are the right person to help him with this. It sounds like you are afraid of him (which, I don't blame you). He may need someone really confident or who has experience with this kind of stuff. He needs someone to show him THEY are the alpha. 
I have a 5yr old, and before I got her, people used to feed her treats all the time. She became mouthy.

Recently, she started that behavior again...but I know why this time, this time it was because my saddle didn't fit her anymore. She was girthy and nippy also.Well, of course taking that ill-fitting saddle away helped, and also discipline...during girth tightening, I would put my elbow out and if she did try to turn around, she'd get it.
A nice bop to the mouth or a smack on the neck works too. She hasn't done it again since.  


Has he been checked for ulcers, or his he in pain anywhere, has he been checked out? Chiro? He may be in pain, which is why he is reacting like this. Are you sure your saddle fits?

Just my two cents.  Give him a chance.
BUT!!!!!!!!! He needs consistency for this to be helped. He needs a routine.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

I think I've had to change my opinion, Poptart. IF he truly charged her and tried to run her down, completely unprovoked and from a distance, he's got bigger problems than we thought.... it's just hard to say without being there and SEEING what's happening.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> I think I've had to change my opinion, Poptart. IF he truly charged her and tried to run her down, completely unprovoked and from a distance, he's got bigger problems than we thought.... it's just hard to say without being there and SEEING what's happening.



Oh boy, I didn't see that part...I need to read all the pages, I only saw the first post.

Well, in THAT case...yes, it's definitely a bigger problem than just a nippy/biting horse.

The forum is being super slow right now. :icon_rolleyes:


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Yes it is super slow. But yeah. That was a new development yesterday OP encountered. It's disheartening for the horse, but Mulehugger, IMO, is experiencing something that's no fault of her own. Those seeds were sown long ago, I think.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

The ops horse doesn't have a kind eye. There is something there that I don't like. He's going to escalate his nastiest. 

He ended up at auction for a darn good reason, sure wasn't because he's a nice horse. He won't ever be a trustworthy. Sorry but in my book he's worth more dead than alive. 

Just to many nice horse's to keep a mean one. He's at a boarding barn that is absolutely the biggest disaster waiting to happen. A lawsuit in the making someone is going to get killed.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't think Jax has a bad eye, it isn't the best but by far not the worse I have seen. His whorl is high above his eye and usually that can mean a sensitive and/or highly string. 

I will not or cannot say a lot as I haven't seen the horse in action but from what the OP has posted my gut feeling is that this horse has learned to fight because he hasn't been taught what is wanted. 

Supposedly unridden the OP rides him first bareback and then saddles him and rides for a long time. If I were that horse I would be resentful of having that saddle back on my back. 

His actions are not good and I do not defend them in the slightest. I would never stand for such behaviour and if he came at me with ill intentions then he would be in for a heck of a shock. It would not be a continuous thrashing but he would certainly feel whatever I hit him with and it would be something solid! 

There are very few horses that cannot be turned around. I know because I have always taken on the no hopers! 

For the horse to be friendly and then suddenly attack puzzles me. If he were a crypt orchid then he would be after the animals he is turned out with there is another reason for sure. 

As it happens in the field I doubt it is a pain issue. You can state ulcers or kissing spine but neither cause the reaction he is giving. 

Ether he is just plain bad OR being defensive because he feels totally lost. Horses DO Talk to us, it is not a verbal communication, it is with subtle signs, a change in how they are holding themselves, their ear movement, a change in the eye or a reaction to something we are doing at the time. They will try hard to tell us and if we don't listen then adverse reaction can be their only defence.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I have read through every post in this thread with great interest. One thing I am wondering about is, in OP's last encounter with this horse, what could have happened that he changed from open and friendly body language to attacking her when he got close? I also don't condone this horse's behavior -- it is aggressive and dangerous beyond what most people are able to handle, but if one wanted to figure out why he was doing this, would that be a place to start? Like others say, it's hard to tell without videos, but it sounds like he saw OP, recognized her, and came over to her happily. Then when he got close -- what? Did he suddenly see something very small that triggered him, that had been too small to see at a distance? Did he only then smell something on her that triggered him? Hear something? It sounds like OP is getting ready to get rid of this horse, and I certainly don't blame her in the least, but if we could figure out what triggered him to act like this, then maybe it could be the start of "fixing" him? It just seems like there could be a clue in there somehwere...


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## 3Horses2DogsandaCat (Apr 19, 2016)

Maybe I'm crazy, but since this young gelding sounds very comfortable with humans, I wonder if he is displaying "dominance play" with humans rather than horses. It wouldn't make it any less dangerous, but I wonder if his intentions aren't as malicious as it might seem.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Sorry, I wanted to clarify what I just posted, but I ran out of edit time. What I am getting at, is, if this were a really mean aggressive horse who wanted to hurt people, wouldn’t he have charged from the minute he saw OP in his pasture? Instead, it sounds like something triggered him when he got closer. It seems that the trigger had to be something he could only see / smell / hear / whatever from a close distance. Knowing that, could it be possible to deduce what the trigger was and then work on fixing that?


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

3Horses2DogsandaCat said:


> Maybe I'm crazy, but since this young gelding sounds very comfortable with humans, I wonder if he is displaying "dominance play" with humans rather than horses. It wouldn't make it any less dangerous, but I wonder if his intentions aren't as malicious as it might seem.



This is why I wonder how he does in a 'herd' setting with a larger group. I'm curious if he's obnoxious with other horses. It's possible he's never been in a larger group wherein some bigger, badder 'alpha' mare or gelding thrashed his arsh for his nonsense and taught him basic manners.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> This is why I wonder how he does in a 'herd' setting with a larger group. I'm curious if he's obnoxious with other horses. It's possible he's never been in a larger group wherein some bigger, badder 'alpha' mare or gelding thrashed his arsh for his nonsense and taught him basic manners.


*cough*



mulehugger said:


> He's in with a 17 year old gelded draft mule, a 5 year old Molly mule, and a 17 year old quarter horse. I've never seen him bother any of them, he seems to mind his own business and definitely prefers the company of people to horses.





mulehugger said:


> Yes, he seems to know exactly how to behave in a herd, and he's not even at the top of the totem pole in his pasture.





mulehugger said:


> He's definitely not top of the totem pole, but I wouldn't say he's the bottom either. The 17 year old quarter horse is probably at the bottom, but I've never seen him pushed around by any of them. He just can't be bothered with politics.


If what @mulehugger says/interprets is true....

-

I don't know.... I really don't.... 
I think @ACinATX, @Foxhunter, and a few others have a point. A horse attacking (truly) completely unprovoked "for no reason" is extremely rare and goes against everything I've learned about horses....


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

I missed that response. So. He's not harassing the other equines, at least that anyone knows of at this time.


IDK. I just keep running this one over and over in my mind trying to figure it out. Sure there's mean horses out there - I just like trying to puzzle out the why: Nurture (Someone taught them) or Nature (Born crazy as a run over dog).


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

I don't know.... I really don't.... I am totally stumped....

-

@cobra


cobra said:


> It's is strange the change in attitude and behavior. When was this ride? How long had you had him at this time? When did you get him? If this is all happening within the span of a month or so, i would even suggest he was possibly drugged before the sale. Some last about a month. The only other thing that strikes me, is it seems most of the issues started after you moved him to the barn he is at now. Is there any possibility something is going on at this barn that could be affecting him? Whether from staff working there, or another boarder.


made a few good points. I guess he _could_ have been drugged...? I don't know....

-

*cough*


α CMa;1970658707 said:


> If what you say is true [yielding and/or ignoring the other equines], then I believe, as it sounds, his behavior has to do more with his association with humans - for some reason.
> 
> If he doesn't go over to them and "randomly", "all of a sudden", "for no reason" hauls off and bite them, then he _does know_ how to behave.





α CMa;1970658707 said:


> He did know how to behave at one point.


.
To completely 180 from a sweet, people-friendly gelding to a haul-off on someone "randomly", "no warning", "unprovoked", "for no reason" 
just....????


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Maybe plan and simple, he is neurological. So no amount of beating the tar out of him, or how many times he is taken back to the beginning, he can’t change because he just is not right in the head.

Humans don’t own the market when it comes to being born with neurological issues, or even developing them in life.

And these type of neurological issues can’t be cured with training, kindness, CTJ meeting, rainbows, butterfly’s and sprinkle dust.

Happy content horses don’t just attack. Put him out of his misery and humanely send him over the bridge.

I am dealing with such issues and there is a very high chance he is not helpable.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

3Horses2DogsandaCat said:


> Maybe I'm crazy, but since this young gelding sounds very comfortable with humans, I wonder if he is displaying "dominance play" with humans rather than horses. It wouldn't make it any less dangerous, but I wonder if his intentions aren't as malicious as it might seem.


I think there's a good chance you're right. Mind you, I'd class serious 'dominance aggression' as more 'malicious' than say, defensive aggression/something that he's learned to do as a reaction. And it is the horse that is fighting for 'dominance' that is, IMO, the more likely to just fight harder if you fight back, as they take it as a challenge.


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## cobra (Jan 30, 2013)

ACinATX said:


> Sorry, I wanted to clarify what I just posted, but I ran out of edit time. What I am getting at, is, if this were a really mean aggressive horse who wanted to hurt people, wouldn’t he have charged from the minute he saw OP in his pasture? Instead, it sounds like something triggered him when he got closer. It seems that the trigger had to be something he could only see / smell / hear / whatever from a close distance. Knowing that, could it be possible to deduce what the trigger was and then work on fixing that?


 Before i say this, i want to be perfectly clear that in no way am I trying to "blame" the OP. Also, in no way am I trying to excuse what the horse did. It should not be tolerated, ever, from a horse or any other animal.

That said, I think perhaps when the horse got close something he saw in body language, energy, etc from the OP affected him. Whether it was sensing hesitance, fear, anger, etc. Horses are individuals, and some are way more sensitive to the energy and emotion/tension that people are feeling.

For example, my Arabian gelding is generally calm and easygoing... However, if my emotions are high, whether excited, tense, scared, etc he senses it in a second and responds much differently. If I approach him with a more agressive or fearful mindset he responds very badly.

Again, not blaming OP, simply suggesting that any fear or hesitance or what have you may have contributed to his reaction when he got closer. I would most definitely seek out an experienced horse trainer to work with him, or to sell him to. Just my opinion....


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## 3Horses2DogsandaCat (Apr 19, 2016)

loosie said:


> And it is the horse that is fighting for 'dominance' that is, IMO, the more likely to just fight harder if you fight back, as they take it as a challenge.



Good point- I didn't think about that when I made my statement.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

@a Cma I'm sorry, but I don't understand the occasional " *cough* ". what is it your are wanting to say?


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

cobra said:


> Before i say this, i want to be perfectly clear that in no way am I trying to "blame" the OP. Also, in no way am I trying to excuse what the horse did. It should not be tolerated, ever, from a horse or any other animal.
> 
> That said, I think perhaps when the horse got close something he saw in body language, energy, etc from the OP affected him. Whether it was sensing hesitance, fear, anger, etc. Horses are individuals, and some are way more sensitive to the energy and emotion/tension that people are feeling.


Right, but for a horse to attack the OP like this, in a big open space, because it picked up on some kind of body language or energy, means the horse is at high risk of doing it again. What if it's a kid that is a little initimidated by the big horse? Or a newbie who laughs too loud? A grandparent coming to watch their grandkid ride, thinking they want to go pat the cute horse over the fence... Even IF the OP had exuded some kind of energy that made him want to fight, don't you think this response is crazy over-the-top? I don't care if the OP had gone in and screamed or waved a red flag. The horse bit her in the chest. Hard. For a horse to run away is normal. But to attack? Not normal. 

There was a reason this horse was at this auction and went so cheap. And it has nothing to do with the OP's "energy".


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

MustangMom said:


> Lots of reading here.
> 
> To the Original Poster:
> You are a smart cookie, I can tell you understand what people are saying and you have the knowledge in you to know what the horse is saying and you know how to communicate with the horse as well.
> ...


Thank you very much and I agree completely.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

sarahfromsc said:


> Maybe plan and simple, he is neurological. So no amount of beating the tar out of him, or how many times he is taken back to the beginning, he can’t change because he just is not right in the head.
> 
> Humans don’t own the market when it comes to being born with neurological issues, or even developing them in life.
> 
> ...


Even aside from the biting he is a weird horse. Before his aggression reared its ugly head I always saw his quirks as something unique and endearing. Now looking back I just see an unstable horse, possibly with a neurological problem.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

loosie said:


> I think there's a good chance you're right. Mind you, I'd class serious 'dominance aggression' as more 'malicious' than say, defensive aggression/something that he's learned to do as a reaction. And it is the horse that is fighting for 'dominance' that is, IMO, the more likely to just fight harder if you fight back, as they take it as a challenge.


That's exactly what differentiates Jax from a typical biting horse - if you give him any inclination that you disagree with his decision to bite you, he will come at you again and again until you're forced to get away unless you want two front hooves down your throat.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

rambo99 said:


> The ops horse doesn't have a kind eye. There is something there that I don't like. He's going to escalate his nastiest.
> 
> He ended up at auction for a darn good reason, sure wasn't because he's a nice horse. He won't ever be a trustworthy. Sorry but in my book he's worth more dead than alive.
> 
> Just to many nice horse's to keep a mean one. He's at a boarding barn that is absolutely the biggest disaster waiting to happen. A lawsuit in the making someone is going to get killed.


I truly agree with you about his eye. The more I look at his eye next to the eyes of my others - Lottie, Magnus, Django, and Caroline - the more I see something there that shouldn't be there. I noticed it to begin with when I first got him but very quickly brushed it off as just because he's got a dark eyebrow above each eye that gives him a "look", and the whites of his eyes show more than my other horses. I should've trusted my gut because his eyes really just aren't right. At least not to me.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

@mulehugger I do not think that this is in any way your fault. I think that the horse is evil. 

I had a beautiful chocolate lab that I bottle raised. For two years he was the kindest, most obedient dog that I ever had. One night he jumped on my husband when he came in from deer hunting. He had on scent blocking camouflage, so we assumed he thought that a stranger was entering the house.

Move forward a few months. He started threatening me. He lunged at me and I knocked him over with a stick. I had two small children. It broke my heart, but I knew that he had to go. Temporarily, he was relegated to spending his time in a fence that he could not escape.

One of my best friends needed a guard dog for her home. She had 50 acres with dog proof fencing. Within that, she had other fencing as well as kennels. He did ok there unless it was dark. Then he would threaten the new owners. 

We later found out that the father to this dog as well as 12 of his half siblings turned mean. Only the chocolate dogs were aggressive. Several mauled children.

I should have put the dog down. I did neuter him before letting him go. It was just a 60 pound dog. He was manageable. If he had weighed 1000 pounds, somebody would be dead. 

This was genetic. Later in life, the dog developed a seizure disorder. It is possible for animals, including humans, to have defective brains.

@mulehugger I look at your beautiful face and your youth. Don't let him take that away from you.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

@Celeste what a sad story. How disturbing. I've never had any animal that 'went bad'. I know it happens, but so hard to imagine.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

sarahfromsc said:


> Maybe plan and simple, he is neurological. So no amount of beating the tar out of him, or how many times he is taken back to the beginning, he can’t change because he just is not right in the head.
> 
> Humans don’t own the market when it comes to being born with neurological issues, or even developing them in life.
> 
> ...


I agree with this partially. However, if you really are thinking a horse has neurological issues, this is not something you will only see in one type of situation. This was something a vet helped me sort out once. Unless only the emotional part of the brain is affected, you will see global neurological deficits, affecting things like intelligence, motor function, balance, etc. If only the emotional part of the brain is affected, it won't be selective only to being handled by humans. Meaning, the horse would "snap" at other horses, at his feed dish, and in a variety of situations be emotionally labile. 

That doesn't mean the horse is happy and contented, however. He may have physical pain/problems or just be emotionally insecure about being handled by humans. 

@aCMa commented that she believes horses that have behavioral problems are "made," not born. I can say that's not always the case, having dealt with a horse that was born with a very dominant personality that tended toward aggressiveness. It could have been made worse, or unmanageable, but it was there in the horse before humans became involved. Not every horse has a personality that most can deal with. That doesn't necessarily mean the horse has a brain that is defective physically or chemically. I think people want to say there is something wrong when a horse is not "average," but there is a huge variety in horse personalities from very assertive, strong and demanding to shrinking violet, timid, and spooky. Either of the far ends of the spectrum are seen as "unstable" by humans.

Horse: "This human keeps doing that behavior. I'll need to get even stronger next time to teach her a lesson she won't forget. If she doesn't stop it, I'll have to take some hide off or draw blood!"
Horse: "I need to show her I can get a little crazy and unpredictable. That way she will show me respect." 
Hmm...


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

gottatrot said:


> I agree with this partially. However, if you really are thinking a horse has neurological issues, this is not something you will only see in one type of situation. This was something a vet helped me sort out once. Unless only the emotional part of the brain is affected, you will see global neurological deficits, affecting things like intelligence, motor function, balance, etc. If only the emotional part of the brain is affected, it won't be selective only to being handled by humans. Meaning, the horse would "snap" at other horses, at his feed dish, and in a variety of situations be emotionally labile.


Interesting that you say snap at his feed dish, because that's one of his quirks I mentioned in my previous post. When he eats grain out of a bowl he paws aggressively at the ground next to it sometimes, and I never fed him near other horses. It was something I shrugged off a few times but as soon as the biting came to a head I realized it was a lot more serious than it seemed at the time


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't know how my brain works but something came back to me as soon as I awoke (at 4.15 a.m.) I must have been puzzling over this problem. 

I was asked to go help a family with a pony they were having problems with. These people were new to the area and had two Pony crazy daughters. Neither parent was horsey. 

The eldest had a 13 hand pony mare. Nothing extraordinary but was meant to be a been there and done that. I was told that every now and then the pony would suddenly attack for no reason. I took this with a pinch of salt. 

I gave the girl several lessons in the field and all was fine. The girl was very nervous but tried hard. I decided to take her out for a ride amd borrowed a horse from a friend living just down the road. I had her on a lead rein. 

We had walked and trotted over a couple of fields to the top of the hills. We were going along a ridgeway before turning for home. I had to open amd close a gate which was partly off the hinges and required two hands. I tossed the lead rein over the ponies neck and dismounted to do the gate, I took the lead rein as I started to remount when the pony, for no apparent reason exploded. 

She went ballistic bucking. Helen was on the deck at the first buck. Pony was bellowing and turned to go for Helen as she was on the floor. Luckily I was able to get between her and pony which, on me whacking her with my whip across the face, turned and took off along the ridgeway. 

There were two people walking towards us and as the pony approached them she was in attack mode, ears flat back and mouth wide open. Fortunately the both jumped into the gorse at the side of the track. 

After checking Helen I remounted and charged off to find Pony who was grazing quite happily at the end of the ridgeway. She was perfectly sweet and normal. 

I led Pony and Helen on the pony I had been riding back home. 

I had never seen anything like it before or since, at home the pony was sweet. Pulling pushing poking and prodding produced no response at all. I told the parents they had choices. 
To keep it as a pasture puff and not let the children near it. 
Sell it and maybe have it seriously hurt another child,.
Shoot it. 

They sensibly chose the latter. I made the arrangements and the pony went on the next day. 

Went to the knacker yard to have a look to see if there was anything internal that could have caused these fits but nothing obvious was to be seen. Whether there was something in the brain I don't know, not a lot of brain left after a bullet.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I have mainly just skimmed pages so pardon me if something has already been mentioned.


From someone who rode sale barn horses, this horse got injected into you. Who ever dropped him off knew what this horse's deal was. That is why he was at the sale yard and not on FB or Craigslist. I doubt you had a contract guaranteeing anything about his past. You probably got what the gate/check in guy was told from the person who dropped him off, he wrote it down and it was handed to the office with his paperwork if he came with any. The person who dropped him off might not even be the person who owned him. Some horse traders if they get a bad horse and they want to run him through loose will have someone drop them off so the horse isn't associated with them. I'm saying this what happened but this is the kind of stuff you have to pay attention to if you are buying horses at the sale yard.






mulehugger said:


> That's exactly what differentiates Jax from a typical biting horse - if you give him any inclination that you disagree with his decision to bite you, he will come at you again and again until you're forced to get away unless you want two front hooves down your throat.



To the above quoted; this why I think this is a man made problem not his wires crossing randomly.
This horse has learned to escalate the situation until he wins. I honestly think this horse needs to go to someone who has the knowledge to do what it takes to and prepared to handle him when this horse ups the anti. As @Cherie put it so eloquently in an aggressive horse thread several years ago,paraphrasing, _"Fixing bad horses is like making sausage. Everyone likes the end result but no one wants to see hows it done."_ 

Unfortunately mulehugger I don't think this is a job for you. I believe this horse should go to someone who knows how to handle these types and can see him through his attacks and win. That person will have experience with this horse first hand and know when, if it comes to it, the horse needs a bullet. 



Sorry you're dealing with this @mulehugger. Best of luck.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

to address what i said about odie behaving this way with treats. if people start hand feeding him treats (like when im not at the barn) he starts to develop an attitude and turn into a monster. I can tell if people have been hand feeding him because his behavior deteriorates. not just for that instance either. if someone feeds him treats on monday he is still on one by wednesday. Its weird, i cant figure out WHY that's his trigger or why it causes his behavior to do that for that long. IF NO ONE gives him treats at all EVER he is your average respectable horse. 

Recently another boarder said she though someone has been feeding him treats because he started charging at people when they walked passed his stall. Redid the no feed signs and within a week his behavior sorted itself out without me needing to do much. 

When i HAD to set him straight he has months of people feeding him treats because he is "cute". well after the horse realizing im nutts and will come unglued and a few boarders finding out if they keep feeding my horse i may come unglued at them too, issue is no longer a issue. EVERY now and then someone slips up and i end up chasing odie backwards and leaving welts on his chest for ear pinning or threatening to bite but VERY rarely now. I have NO idea why this causes such behavior as he has NEVER been aloud to get away with it. my fiance used to feed him treats but not often as he got mouthy but he never got this bad. In the last 5 years he has gotten food aggressive so that's the only thing i can think about. 


I dont care if the behavior is man made or not, it can KILL SOMEONE and needs delt with. If you are not comfortable with going after him at least carry a whip or strong stick with you. he comes at you or in your space uninvited hit him with intent to remove hide. Most likly all you will leave is a welt but seriously put force behind it. Remember if he did this with another horse he would get a kick to the face. THAT hurts ALOT more than what us punny humans can do with a stick or whip.

this pic is of me on odie. he is about 16.2hh and im 5'4" on a good day. this is not a little pony misbehaving. This is a VERY large animal. my dogs are not aloud to get away with aggressive behavior, my horses are not either. I dog jumping up on you or snapping at you wont kill you. a horse charging you and stepping on you or biting you can cause SERIOUS injury even if they are not trying to kill you. I have watched people ignore or under discipline aggressive behaviors. i have then watched these horses hurt them or someone else. after watching and elderly lady get picked up by her shoulder by a bity horse i realized that ANY aggressive behavior shall be met with dire consequences. I board at a barn with all types of people including children. I cant just think of myself with my horses behavior. all the horses at the barn are friendly and normally odie is too and everyone LOVES him. i cant let him get an attitude and hurt a child because they dont have treats. 

Odie is an amazing horse 90% of the time. and as long as people dont hand feed him he stays that way. he will lay his head in your lap while laying down, he will fetch and do liberty. he wants to be with people and he wants attention. he is a barn favorite for a reason. every person and every animal has a quark. BUT his can be dangerous so it is not aloud at all.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

KigerQueen said:


> *I dont care if the behavior is man made or not, it can KILL SOMEONE and needs delt with*. If you are not comfortable with going after him at least carry a whip or strong stick with you. he comes at you or in your space uninvited hit him with intent to remove hide. Most likly all you will leave is a welt but seriously put force behind it. Remember if he did this with another horse he would get a kick to the face. THAT hurts ALOT more than what us punny humans can do with a stick or whip.



To the bolded.
The difference is whether the horse is fixable. 

If the horse truly has his wires crossed it doesn't matter who owns him or is handling him he most likely will always have the issue.

If the horse has a man made problem, someone capable of fixing him and maintaining the training can own him.
I agree, either way it needs dealt with.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

I too wonder if he's just wired wrong.

There was a pony I was helping with about a year and a half ago. Beautiful little thing, about 14hh and very flashy. She was being boarded at my trainer's barn. The story from the owners is that she had been sent out to be trained/broke THREE TIMES. It never "took" with her, but my coach assumed (understandably) that this was because the owners are NOT horse people, and they almost never rode her, so she had no reason to "stay" trained.

Before I started working with her -- and I was working with her because at this point we assumed she just needed miles -- a different student had been riding her walk/trot and she'd been really good. And when I started working with her, she was easily distracted but would relax AMAZINGLY and work well if you took the time to get her focus first. However. The following things occurred that summer:

-EXPLODED moments after I mounted her and was getting settled in the saddle, shot backwards and fell to the ground. TWICE in a row. Gave me a black eye and nearly broke my nose. Seemed completely relaxed, zero provocation, and she had been ridden very consistently by that point and was being used in lessons with no outbursts at all
-Would get so distracted during lunge work that she fell and fully hit the ground on a couple of occasions
-After an extremely relaxed session of groundwork/riding, she violently spooked repeatedly at absolutely nothing and pulled back seemingly in terror being led to the barn
-Spooked violently at the sight of her own water bucket
-During a "lesson" where my trainer was leading the pony at a walk, with the pony's owner's young daughter on her, she BOLTED at absolutely nothing, ripped free, and dumped the kid. When my trainer says it was a totally unprovoked bolt, I absolutely believe her.

That was enough strikes for me. I'm absolutely convinced that something is not right in that pony's brain, and that something in there "goes off" at completely random times. I do not consider her safe at all and if anything she should only be in a companion home with someone experienced. Fortunately her "tics" (to put it mildly) weren't violent in nature, and she was quite friendly, but they were certainly extremely dangerous to anyone in the saddle.

Unfortunately, I've recently heard through the rumour mill that she's been sold to a lesson barn somewhere. I hope I'm wrong (but I'm not wrong) and that she's capable of being a nice pony and NOT exploding.

All this to say: I think this horse may very well be wired WRONG, as his behaviour sounds like it goes 180 degrees SO fast. The experience in the field is the real clincher for me. If he's this dangerous and only escalates his aggression when challenged, I personally -- and I'm speaking only for myself here -- would be putting him down. Regardless of the origin of the behaviour, and whether it's theoretically fixable or not, he's dangerous right NOW and could kill someone right NOW. This isn't something that can safely wait while very-long-shot "fixes" are considered.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

agreed if wires are crossed there is nothing that can be done. like that stud that buck dealt with and said needed to be put down. I was more referring to a horse suffering because of a man made issue (in response to setting the horse straight). I used to think every horse is worth saving and should be saved. after being in the horse world and the boarding world i have since learned that is not the case. Odie IS worth it as he is a good, sweet and amazing horse, he just gets too big for his shoes when given treats and needs reminded who is crazier. our 34 year old gelding is worth every penny we put into him because he is a one in a million horse. But something that can come unglued, that you have to keep an eye on because he might attack you or someone else is NOT a fun horse. almost bought a horse like that. i was NOT interested after he tried to jump a stall and kill a mare i was leading him past. He gave 0 indication of his attack. he was quiet, head low and soft eye. he did not even glance at her before he spun and attacked. Apparently he was known for trying to KILL mares. he was a NUT. nope. you can have it.

another experience i has with a horse with a wiring issue was a OTTB mare named Dun Deal. If she was ridden miles daily she was fine, mostly. I went for a ride with her owner befose i bought my arab in the cotton fields one day. they where resting so made for amazing footing. Well this mare bolted for no reason and went on a bucking fit. i was NOT amused. this mare had only one day off. fast forward another week. im on my arab and the owner is on Dun Deal. This horse had 4 days off. she is sitting on the horse talking to someone in her driveway. the horse flips out out of the blue, sits down and slams herself over backwards onto of her rider. Luckily she was unharmed. mare tried this 3 more times before she was "ok". several trainers could not fix her. mare was self destructive. she has 29 starts by the age of 5. i have no idea if thats why she was a mess or if she was born that way. im positive that horse had a one way trip to mexico.


My strong advice is to get him vet and trainer evaluated. If its a training issue work with him. if he is just born like that, then put him down. it cant be a good life living like that, and he is to dangerous for all around him.


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## 3Horses2DogsandaCat (Apr 19, 2016)

mulehugger said:


> Even aside from the biting he is a weird horse. Before his aggression reared its ugly head I always saw his quirks as something unique and endearing. Now looking back I just see an unstable horse, possibly with a neurological problem.



Do you mind sharing what some of his quirks are? It might help people make connections with other horses they have known.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

The colt I raised was wired wrong. I found out after taking him to a trainer to be evaluated. Conclusion between vet & trainer he was just mentally not right. No amount of training was going to change him. He was born like that.

He was very agressive as a foal would kick mare charge anyone who entered pasture. Things got worse as he got bigger. Sadly he had to be shot as a 3 year old...he was extremely dangerous mean. 

Picked him up from trainer to bring home to lay him to rest. Hubby did the deed thankfully horse never knew what hit him. Gave him a pan of grain and hubby shot him while he was eating. 

Found out several years later the sire had 6 other foals, who were also dangerous, and their fate ended up the same put down at a young age.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I have continued to follow along this thread and read all the responses carefully. Most of them have saddened me. 

Just because a horse makes the wrong decision in response to a stimulus does not mean the horse is evil or untrainable. 


Has anyone looked at the situation from the horse's perspective? Y'all say he was unprovoked, but what has this horse gone through? 


We know at least this much; first he was run thru an auction *always* a stressful situation. Then he was moved to two different places with different herd mates in a short period of time. Then he was ridden for hours in ill-fitting, painful tack and when he objected he was hit and provoked into attacking then beaten for that. 

Finally he was placed in solitary confinement and then the person that had caused all these bad things to happen comes into his space. 


Of course this horse is angry! If he ever had any trust in humans it has certainly been lost by the things that have happened to him


Horses aren't born knowing proper behavior and need to be taught what we expect in terms of manners and responses to stimuli. 

to be cont...


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I bought a 4yr old TB/Appy cross mare that everyone said was crazy. They claimed that she would explode with "no warning" and go ballistic. 


I was fortunate enough to know a bit of her previous history. The prior owner had apparently become angry with her (not sure exactly what she did but they were inside the barn) and beat her into a corner until she came back out at him and got loose. 

That was the point where his wife said "sell her now". 


So I bought her and started working with her. Sure enough she would explode into a bucking frenzy without any discernable clue or stimulus. 

I began watching her every move as if I was riding with a microscope. Then I saw it; a tiny itty bitty movement of her left ear. If I hadn't been staring at it, I wouldn't have ever seen it. 


What prompted it? Sometimes I could figure that out and sometimes I couldn't. Didn't really make any difference what it was, my job was to learn how to prevent the ear twitch, thus preventing the bucking fit. 


So I kept her busy. I kept her ears on me. I turned her into my Dressage horse. Dressage requires that every single move the horse makes is directed by the rider. This suited her perfectly as she did not have to figure out what to do at all, that was my job. 

She developed trust in me and was confident that I would keep her safe from harm. She became so attached to me that at shows I had to walk her around with me like one would a dog. At home she was ok, but her anxiety when she was away from home was severe, and she really only trusted me. If she got loose (yeah, this did happen sometimes) then she would not let any one else touch her. She would run away from them and towards me at full speed...then lay her head on my shoulder. 


The other thing she would do was set back on her halter when tied. She would mindlessly explode if she felt pressure on the back of her head when tied. If the ropes and halter hadn't broken, she could have pulled down the barn she was that panicked. 

I went through a lot of halters before I was able to get her to learn to walk forward into pressure on her nose. But I never, ever left her alone tied. 


IMO every horse gives a warning, but it may be very, very subtle and easy to miss.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

gottatrot said:


> @aCMa commented that she believes horses that have behavioral problems are "made," not born. I can say that's not always the case, having dealt with a horse that was born with a very dominant personality that tended toward aggressiveness. It could have been made worse, or unmanageable, but it was there in the horse before humans became involved. Not every horse has a personality that most can deal with. That doesn't necessarily mean the horse has a brain that is defective physically or chemically. I think people want to say there is something wrong when a horse is not "average," but there is a huge variety in horse personalities from very assertive, strong and demanding to shrinking violet, timid, and spooky. Either of the far ends of the spectrum are seen as "unstable" by humans.


I understand what you are saying, but I'm not really sure how I stand on this.... Technically, I said that "bad" horses aren't born - not behavioral problems - which I still stand by; but, I guess it all depends on what your definition of "bad" means....

While I do agree that some horses may have more of an aggressive trait (genetically, inherently, "accidentally" (birth defect or something), or whatever...), I don't consider them "bad" - therefore, I don't consider them to be "born bad."

If we are talking about "behavioral problems", then I guess I could still stand... depending on how you look at it....


gottatrot said:


> it was there in the horse before humans became involved.


 A lot of horse behaviors, in my opinion, are not a problem; they only become a problem when a human gets involved - which, I guess, should because that's when it really matters.

Does a horse that is "naturally" more aggressive have a behavioral problem? Is a horse that is "naturally" aggressive "bad"?
I don't really think so; therefore, again, I don't really consider a horse to be born with "behavioral problems"/"bad." Aggression, taught or inherited, usually only becomes a problem when humans get involves.

I've seen and heard of stallions killing foals in the wild. However, it was usually because the foal was extremely weak/sick; and, I've been told, maybe sometimes because the foal didn't belong to him. Even then, I still don't think the said stallion was "born with behavioral problems" or "bad."

JMHO....

Eh.
Sorry for the rambling. I don't that doesn't sound like it makes sense....


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

For my above post (I can't edit.):
*TL; DR:*
Horses, untouched, act like horses. That's the only way a horse knows how to behavior - like a horse. I don't consider that to be "born with a behavioral problem" or "born bad."


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

α CMa;1970660317 said:


> For my above post (I can't edit.):
> *TL; DR:*
> Horses, untouched, act like horses. That's the only way a horse knows how to behavior - like a horse. I don't consider that to be "born with a behavioral problem" or "born bad."


I agree. Horses need to be taught what humans want in terms of responses to stimuli. 

Will add horses don't arrive on earth with a quiet eye. That horse doesn't have an evil eye IMO, he is nervous & suspicious of humans and it shows in his eye. 

I don't really blame him for fighting back to protect himself. He obviously doesn't trust humans. Trust can be taught as can proper manners.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> I have continued to follow along this thread and read all the responses carefully. Most of them have saddened me.
> 
> Just because a horse makes the wrong decision in response to a stimulus does not mean the horse is evil or untrainable.
> 
> ...



A horse doesn't get a free pass due to past stress if he is making a threat to my well being.
It doesn't work that way whether it be man made or not. Horses don't feel sorry for each other and let others get away with offenses in the herd. They adhere to rules regardless of the circumstances.


I do feel bad for the horse because someone (meaning previous owner(s)) allowed this to develop. I seriously doubt this horse was abused. In my opinion I think this was someone's "baby" who had no business owning a young horse and the horse was smarter than the owner learning to escalate the situation until the owner backed down. I think he was conditioned to act in the manner he has. I also think the horse has been very quietly pushing on his new owner without her realizing it. That is why I don't think feeling sorry or babying this horse will solve anything. He should only get that "softness" when he has learned he can not intimidate the person handling him into submission.



I will say, we can only go off what is being told here. No one else, and obviously including myself, has seen this horse. Most of us are basing our opinions on our on past experiences no matter how little or vast they may be. So of course I am only speculating as well.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

COWCHICK77 said:


> A horse doesn't get a free pass due to past stress if he is making a threat to my well being.


I don't mean to speak for @AnitaAnne, as she can speak for herself, but I don't think that's the point of her post....

I don't take it as she is necessarily excusing his behavior, but trying to understand it. I think she was merely pointing out the horses usually have a reason to do something, be it behavioral or genetic, and warn; it is highly unusually for a horse to not. Some people here are saying that he is simply an "evil", "born bad" horse that attacks without warning and provocation ("for no reason").


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

α CMa;1970660343 said:


> I don't mean to speak for @AnitaAnne, as she can speak for herself, but I don't think that's the point of her post....
> 
> I don't take it as she is necessarily excusing his behavior, but trying to understand it. I think she was merely pointing out the horses usually have a reason to do something, be it behavioral or genetic, and warn; it is highly unusually for a horse to not. Some people here are saying that he is simply an "evil", "born bad" horse that attacks without warning and provocation ("for no reason").


Thank you, yes that is what I am saying. I do not believe horses are "evil" or "born bad". I have come across a few horses with brain damage from being hit in the head. I have also met a few that are as stupid as rocks (poor breeding), and those IMO are the most difficult to train and the easiest to ruin. 

I have had CTJ moments with horses before, but before I do any intervention, I am going to observe and study the horse. Then I will begin to shape his behavior.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

COWCHICK77 said:


> A horse doesn't get a free pass due to past stress if he is making a threat to my well being.
> It doesn't work that way whether it be man made or not. Horses don't feel sorry for each other and let others get away with offenses in the herd. They adhere to rules regardless of the circumstances.
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, really hard to judge the behavior without seeing it. Words just don't paint the whole picture. 

I will agree that the horse has not necessarily been abused. I have seen really bad behavior from bottle fed babies because they have often been raised by people that do not immediately begin to shape their behavior. 

As an example, a mare will nudge her foal behind her and face danger. People have a hard time teaching this type of concept to an orphan foal. That is why it is very important for orphans or bottle fed babies to be placed in a herd as soon as possible. To learn how to be a productive member of horse society. 


Another upbringing that can cause aggressive behavior is growing up in the wild. They need careful handling to adjust to human approved behavior. 

Also stallions and late cut geldings can be quite aggressive, including out in a pasture! 

So lots of reasons besides abuse that can cause aggressive responses in horses. But this horse was provoked until he acted aggressively.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

COWCHICK77 said:


> I do feel bad for the horse because someone (meaning previous owner(s)) allowed this to develop.* I seriously doubt this horse was abused. In my opinion I think this was someone's "baby" who had no business owning a young horse and the horse was smarter than the owner learning to escalate the situation until the owner backed down. I think he was conditioned to act in the manner he has.* I also think the horse has been very quietly pushing on his new owner without her realizing it. That is why I don't think feeling sorry or babying this horse will solve anything. He should only get that "softness" when he has learned he can not intimidate the person handling him into submission.



Was talking to J last night. She's Leroy's new(ish) owner. Apparently the guy 'reteaching' Leroy (And I know this guy. He's a salty son of a gun and all he knows is horses) has had him take off at full runs, reach back to bite him on the shin and try to jerk him out of the saddle. He's bitten the crap out of him at feed time.


Leroy was also someone's 'baby'. Will this guy give Leroy the attitude adjustment I wasn't sandy or experienced enough to hand out, and what J also wasn't able to do or will he just be sold off again? I don't know the answer to that. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions. That much I know.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> Thank you, yes that is what I am saying. I do not believe horses are "evil" or "born bad". I have come across a few horses with brain damage from being hit in the head. I have also met a few that are as stupid as rocks (poor breeding), and those IMO are the most difficult to train and the easiest to ruin.
> 
> I have had CTJ moments with horses before, but before I do any intervention, I am going to observe and study the horse. Then I will begin to shape his behavior.



I apologize. I misread and didn't quite understand what you meant apparently. I took it as making excuses for the horse's behaviour as if being run through the sale and a long ride caused the whole issue.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

COWCHICK77 said:


> I apologize. I misread and didn't quite understand what you meant apparently. I took it as making excuses for the horse's behaviour as if being run through the sale and a long ride caused the whole issue.


I was not explaining well. IMO the horse is angry, very angry. He even paws when he eats. Again, likely anger. Discovering how to decrease his anger and shape his behavior to more acceptable reactions is key to his retraining. 


My little QH mare shakes her feed bucket HARD, so hard her food often spills. She didn't do this in the past, and she is 23 yrs old, will be 24 in August. Just started doing the bucket shaking this year. I believe because of the other mare that I was boarding there. The owner interfered in the herd hierarchy including at feeding time causing my mare a lot of stress. So instead of eating slowly and carefully as she has for years, she is slinging her food around. (yes, her teeth have been checked). 

Will be hard to change the behavior, but I compensate by giving her a deep bucket tied securely to the wall. If I stay with her for the first 5 minutes or so, she won't sling her bucket. She knows she has more safety with me there.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Was talking to J last night. She's Leroy's new(ish) owner. Apparently the guy 'reteaching' Leroy (And I know this guy. He's a salty son of a gun and all he knows is horses) has had him take off at full runs, reach back to bite him on the shin and try to jerk him out of the saddle. He's bitten the crap out of him at feed time.
> 
> 
> Leroy was also someone's 'baby'. Will this guy give Leroy the attitude adjustment I wasn't sandy or experienced enough to hand out, and what J also wasn't able to do or will he just be sold off again? I don't know the answer to that. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions. That much I know.



True. It is too bad horses get ruined in this manner. Making a horse a gentle lap dog with all the love and as you said, good intentions, with no consequences to bad behaviour. All this really boils down to is good horsemanship. You can have a gentle friendly horse but both parties need to know the boundries. Some horses know them better than others not just because of handling but some horses personalities allow for it. But the handling makes the difference between having a model citizen and not. And look where Leroy and the horse in question is at because of it.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

AnitaAnne said:


> I was not explaining well. IMO the horse is angry, very angry. He even paws when he eats. Again, likely anger. Discovering how to decrease his anger and shape his behavior to more acceptable reactions is key to his retraining.


Agree with @a CMa and @anitaAnna. 

The anger sometimes can be so simple too, as simple as his gut has a burning pain from ulcers he developed due to all the stress he has been going through. That often correlates with anger during eating, because eating can actually cause more pain. My mare with ulcers would pin her ears and grind her teeth at her hay net. Or anger over feeling worried and insecure in a new situation.

So I can't say a horse that is angry at handlers (who have been causing a lot of stress and difficult situations lately) and also at his food (stress or pain response) is exhibiting signs of neurological instability.
What I would say is that something is really bothering the horse, so he can't be expected to act normally until his issues are discovered and addressed.

Something that is interesting about horses and animals is that they can make correlations between things that are seemingly unrelated. Someone on the forum has a horse that related poor treatment to hats, so was afraid of hats. If a horse was drinking out of a water bucket when stung by a bee, he might become afraid of water buckets. This is why I hesitate to say a horse bolted or spooked "for no reason," because between their super senses we don't have, and the correlations they might make between unrelated things, the reasons might be quite reasonable to the horse even if we can't figure out what it is.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

While I agree that a VERY good trainer or horseperson might be able to sort out these issues trying to find one willing to buy or even take the horse for free would be like looking for a needle in a haystack. Training it for a person and getting paid for that training they would but more often than not a horse like this will be back to testing what it can get away with after being returned to the owner. No trainer I know would want this horse for themselves because they'd have more in training than they'd ever be able to sell it for plus they aren't willing to risk the injury that would keep them from working for paying customers. 


Who you'd be more likely to find is a new trainer who wants to prove their meddle and thinks it will be a start to a good reputation for handling difficult horses. Rarely does this end on a good note. 


Unless you can find that needle in the haystack the kindest thing you can do for yourself and for the horse is to euthanize. I don't think that is near as harsh as what might end up happening to him or God forbid a person if you move him on down the road.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

My question for those who think putting the horse down is best: 

Is there a reason why you would recommend someone put a horse down after only knowing the horse a few weeks rather than doing a trial treatment for ulcers? Since ulcers are known to cause aggression in some horses. Three weeks of Omeprazole and the OP might see the friendly, happy horse come back. 

If you look up ulcer symptoms on any site such as thehorse.com they include:

-Looking back at or nosing the abdomen (check, per OP)
-Food aggressive behaviors at feeding time such as rushing to the feed bucket, pawing...(check, per OP)
-General grumpiness with herdmates and/or caretakers (check, per OP)
-Girthiness (check, per OP)
https://thehorse.com/139378/hard-to-stomach-equine-gastric-ulcer-syndrome/

None of us know the horse, but the OP describes a pretty drastic change in behavior, rather suddenly. Suspiciously, these behavioral changes correlate strongly with symptoms consistent with ulcers. We also know the horse was exposed to a change in environment, was at auction, and also has gone a long period of time without eating during exercise, I'd suggest it is quite possible that people are suggesting someone put a horse down for developing ulcers.

I've run into some pretty aggressive people in the hospital who were in pain. We usually try to get their pain under control first before putting them down.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Ulcer treatment isn't an end all be all cure for a nasty mean horse. Doesn't magically fix cinchness or any training issues related to ulcers.

Lets see I've literally spent thousands on treating ulcers both gastric and hindgut. Horse still cinchy horse doesn't bite or kick now....but flattens ears. 

Still doesn't eat much grain was never food agressive was never mean agressive, towards me when just loose in pasture. Biting kicking while cinching up was fixed with training lots of rewarding for right behavior. 

Ops horse my guess all these avenues ,have been exhausted to no avail, so he got dumped at auction. Is he worth the effort to rehab probably not, is he worth risking ones well being probably not. 

Can't fix dead, can't fix brain damaged human being...all for trying to fix a 300 dollar horse. Easier to just put a bullet in his head....He's not worth more then a humans well being.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

To add to my other post ran out of time to edit. My gelding has a kind gentle eye, unlike ops horse. Like the saying goes eyes are the Windows to the soul.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

@gottatrot, I've got one that is prone to ulcers when hauling and he has never ever tried to attack anyone. While I could excuse a horse for being a little naughty while in pain from any cause I'll never excuse one from coming through a pasture just to attack a human. I think this horse's issues go way beyond a pain factor.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> My question for those who think putting the horse down is best:
> 
> Is there a reason why you would recommend someone put a horse down after only knowing the horse a few weeks rather than doing a trial treatment for ulcers? Since ulcers are known to cause aggression in some horses. Three weeks of Omeprazole and the OP might see the friendly, happy horse come back.
> 
> ...



I don't believe the horse needs a bullet. Only if his wires are crossed, which I doubt.

He may very well have ulcers but if I were in this situation as the OP I wouldn't spend the $1500 on Gastro Gard for a $300 grade sale barn horse I recently picked up just to find out if maybe it is what is causing the problems. 
I spend that money on the horses that have proven themselves. 
I know I sound cold and snobby. 

That is up to the OP to decide if it is worth it to her whether it be spending money on a vet, ulcer treatment, trainer and will she trust the horse afterwards.


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## koda2004 (Sep 2, 2017)

I haven't read all of the reply's to this post so forgive me if I seem to have missed an important factor. Now the rest of my post only applies if you are keeping him and trying to work though all of his issues.


If I had a horse that was aggressive like this, I wouldn't continue slapping him every time he misbehaves and hope that he might get the point someday. I would put him in a roundpen and work him! Lope him around and teach him to turn in and face you because it sounds like he has very little respect for you. also instead of slapping him when he bites, back him up really fast or yield his hindquarters... slapping will just make him more aggressive or headshy. Anytime he does this make things uncomfortable for him by moving his feet, and I mean really move them! With a horse this aggressive you can't have slow reactions! But I personally would start him in the roundpen and then teach him things like yielding hindquarters and forequarters, backing lunging for respect(NOT mindless circles) 



Also I follow Clinton Anderson and he has several good vidoes on YouTube about working with extremely aggressive horses, here are some of the titles "Once Bitten Twice Shy," "You don't Know Jack" "Running Scared" and "Blue in your Face." all of those are videos for working with extremely aggressive horses.


Also, it sounds like you are expecting a lot from a horse that has supposedly never had any training. First of all you just get on him bareback and then a week or two later you saddle him up and take him on a 4 hour trail ride?? And also, you are having him do things like figure eights already? I know that figure eights is a simple exercise, but I have 2 fillies that have been undersaddle for several months now and we haven't worked on things like figure 8's much at all! I have been focusing on getting them calm on the trail and responding to my cues reliably. 



Just one more thing, why punish him for sniffing your boot? All of my horses do that all the time! Sometimes they even start to chew on my boot( In which case I gently push their head away). I even give them treat sometimes when they bring their head around because I teach all of mine lateral flexion and one rein stops so bending their head around is a good thing.


And 3 out of my four horses paw at their feed pans, they just do! It's normal behavior for my horses, and they don't seem upset when they do it. They just paw at their feed bowl and move it around. I had never even thought of it being a sign of anger.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

koda2004 said:


> Also I follow Clinton Anderson and he has several good vidoes on YouTube about working with extremely aggressive horses, here are some of the titles "Once Bitten Twice Shy," "You don't Know Jack" "Running Scared" and "Blue in your Face." all of those are videos for working with extremely aggressive horses.


I don't know....
Maybe....
The thing about that is that those horses kind-of just seem like your typical "disrespectful" horse, in my opinion. They were taught to be "aggressive" over time by their owner because they ran and didn't command "respect." They warned and had a reason (due to povocation) to be aggressive. Once someone put pressure and commanded respect, they yielded and did fine. Again, seems like a rather a typical "aggressive" horse.

I don't really know about Jax, though. He seemed to have changed overnight which, with a lot of things with horses, is rare. He is supposedly not warning and is attacking without reason/provocation. He is also choosing to fight back when put pressure upon. All of that is unusual behavior for a horse.

Now, I'm not saying I think Jax is necessarily "respectful" of @mulehugger or that I excuse his behavior, but, in my eyes, there is a huge difference between the horses that C.A. worked with and Jax. 
However, I don't know. I don't know @mulehugger, her situation, or Jax. All we've had to go on is a few posts and pictures - not enough.

-



koda2004 said:


> slapping will just make him more aggressive or headshy.


You say that as if it is a guarantee....

It depends.
It depends on the horse.
It depends on the person.
It depends on the "severity" of pressure.
It depends on the timing.

Horses get bit and kicked - *hard* - in the face by the other horses, but they aren't aggressive or head-shy to the other horses. Why? Because horses know each other. Because they are usually very, very aware of the amount of pressure they put (or yield away from) on the other horses. Because horses usually have very good timing - a lot better than a human in most cases.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

AnitaAnne said:


> I have continued to follow along this thread and read all the responses carefully. Most of them have saddened me.
> 
> Just because a horse makes the wrong decision in response to a stimulus does not mean the horse is evil or untrainable.
> 
> ...



You lost me at "provoked into attacking then beaten for that". Jax was not beaten in my care and never will be. He bit me twice and then lashed out at someone else with the intent to severely injure them and in doing so, he received a stick and string firmly across his face, as he deserved. That hardly qualifies as beating, so please don't try to introduce that type of nonsense this late into the thread. 

Secondly, Jax has never been in solitary confinement... where did you even read that? He has been in a 3-4 acre field happy as a clam with 3 other horses. 

I also don't agree with his tack being ill-fit. The saddle is fine, and I should've known better than to produce pictures of him tacked as there is always going to be someone who objects to a tacked picture.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

Another development: I asked the people who had Jax in their pasture before he moved to my barn if he had ever been aggressive towards them, and one of them mentioned that he had bitten them, hard, on the arm while they were in the pasture. Why it took me asking to get this information, I don't know, but there you have it. Not new behavior

Anywho, for those of you who wanted an update, I've decided to start the process of finding an experienced handler to take him on after establishing that this behavior goes back farther than my time with him. I'm going to require personal, vet and farrier references as well as pictures of the handler's horses and facility. I'm also going to require the handler to sign a waiver stating I disclosed Jax' aggression prior to selling him and that I won't be personally held liable for any injuries or death resulting from his handling


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

3Horses2DogsandaCat said:


> Do you mind sharing what some of his quirks are? It might help people make connections with other horses they have known.


A few I can think of off the top of my head are:

1. Pawing the ground while eating out of a grain bucket
2. Neighing at you really loudly
3. When walking him with a lead rope, he would sometimes toss his head side to side to create movement in the lead rope


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

Is there anyone with legal experience willing to give this a once-over? I want to also include something in the agreement that says that they will not post any slander on social media if they are injured by Jax... just not sure on the wording. :think:


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

mulehugger said:


> You lost me at "provoked into attacking then beaten for that". Jax was not beaten in my care and never will be. He bit me twice and then lashed out at someone else with the intent to severely injure them and in doing so, he received a stick and string firmly across his face, as he deserved. That hardly qualifies as beating, so please don't try to introduce that type of nonsense this late into the thread.
> 
> Secondly, Jax has never been in solitary confinement... where did you even read that? He has been in a 3-4 acre field happy as a clam with 3 other horses.
> 
> I also don't agree with his tack being ill-fit. The saddle is fine, and I should've known better than to produce pictures of him tacked as there is always going to be someone who objects to a tacked picture.



You have a good plan. Go to manage attachments and delete the photos of him tacked up. Solves that issue. 

Wish you good luck finding someone to take jax. I knew you'd do the right thing. You come off as being very smart and have good commonsense.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

mulehugger said:


> Is there anyone with legal experience willing to give this a once-over? I want to also include something in the agreement that says that they will not post any slander on social media if they are injured by Jax... just not sure on the wording. :think:



I would ask someone where you live that deals in selling horse's. These things can be a bit different form state to state do to laws.


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## berrymom (May 18, 2010)

Have you ever seen the movie "Buck", about legendary trainer Buck Brannaman? In the film, he worked with a dangerous gelding that would not respond. He eventually told the owner she needed to have him put down before he killed someone.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

berrymom said:


> Have you ever seen the movie "Buck", about legendary trainer Buck Brannaman? In the film, he worked with a dangerous gelding that would not respond. He eventually told the owner she needed to have him put down before he killed someone.


***Disclaimer***
I haven't seen the movie. I've only seen some clips.

-






This horse didn't attack "all of a sudden" for "no reason." Mr. Brannaman clearly puts to much pressure on a horse who can't, or thinks he can't, flee. The horse warned several times. The horse clearly tells Mr. Brannaman that he doesn't want to, that he is confused, that he is nervous, and that he is not ready. Mr. Brannaman is moving too fast and ignoring the horse. I am not exactly saying I think he deserved it or that I excuse the horse's behavior, but Mr. Brannaman, in my opinion, caused this.

Also, notice that horse once Mr. Brannaman is down, the horse didn't pummel him into the ground, go for his jugular, or anything crazy. One and done. Once the pressure was off, the horse gave release. 

That horse wasn't trying/"want" to kill him. If the horse "wanted" him dead, Mr. Brannaman would be dead - right then and there.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

That was not Buck in the clip.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

α CMa;1970660981 said:


> ***Disclaimer***
> I haven't seen the movie. I've only seen some clips.
> 
> -
> ...


You have a lot of experience with these types of horses?


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

sarahfromsc said:


> That was not Buck in the clip.


Thanks.
My apologies.

However, what I say still stands even though that was not Buck.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

The documentary showed other instances of the horse’s aggression towards people who weren’t even interacting with it.

Interesting documentary. He had a dysfunctional childhood. I believe it gave him an insight to troubled horses and people.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

@a cma I see nothing wrong in what he did. I think you don’t really understand horses like this if you think he had too much pressure on him. Then again, maybe you could have turned that horse around. Who knows?


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

Knave said:


> I see nothing wrong in what he did. I think you don’t really understand horses like this if you think he had too much pressure on him.


May you please explain why the horse did what the horse did?


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

Sure. The horse was spoiled as they come. He learned he could scare people. That’s what happened. 

The horse was dangerous because someone treated him with only loving kindness always and no rules. If, as you say, he released pressure when the horse first threatened he would have only gotten hurt quicker.

ETA: Guilting anyone into working a horse like this is unfair and immature.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I don’t see how that video relates to Jax... @mulehugger was not putting that pressure on Jax in either of the situations when he attacked. 
The horse in the video gave warnings that Jax did not.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

@greentree mulehugger updated on post #152. She's going to find him a new home...with an experienced person.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

Knave said:


> Sure. The horse was spoiled as they come. He learned he could scare people. That’s what happened.
> 
> The horse was dangerous because someone treated him with only loving kindness always and no rules. If, as you say, he released pressure when the horse first threatened he would have only gotten hurt quicker.


I understand what you are saying, but I don't think I fully agree.

Perhaps the horse was spoiled.....
Perhaps the horse was trying to intimidate that human....

-

That horse was fairly patient - waiting and warning for nearly minute before attacking.

That horse, in my opinion, looked like he tried to get away (flight) before attacking (fight).

I don't see a whole lot of aggressive behavior before he attacked. I don’t see a lot of ear-pinning, tail swishing, moving forward toward the human, trying to bite, massive rearing, striking.… the typical aggressive and/or intimidating behaviors.
I see those rears as a "What do you want? Please stop." rather than "I'm trying to intimidate you." I sometimes find that horses that rear to intimidate rear higher than those baby rears.

Perhaps I worded it incorrectly. I didn't mean for him (the handler) should release the pressure when the horse threatened. I mean that the horse gave release (walked away) once the pressure was was off (one the horse knocked the human down).

I still stand by that I think the human should have introduced the blanket slower – rather than throwing it out at the horse. While I agree there are times to tell a horse to pull their head out and suck it up, this isn’t one of those times. The horse attacking the human is a testament to that.

Again, I am not saying that the human deserved it or that I excuse the horse’s behavior; however, I do believe that this was preventable – leaning more so toward being the human’s fault.

Would the horse have attacked that human is the human went slower?
Would the horse have attacked that human is the horse wasn’t “confined”?
I don’t know…. 

I know you think of me as naïve, but that is JMHO….


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

greentree said:


> I don’t see how that video relates to Jax... @mulehugger was not putting that pressure on Jax in either of the situations when he attacked.
> The horse in the video gave warnings that Jax did not.


I don't know that horse, the owner, or that situation, but the point of that video is that a lot of people say that that horse is a "aggressive", "dangerous", "killer" horse that needs to be put down. I don't necessarily see that horse in need of a bullet....

It's just a different perspective of how we see things.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

The horse was spoiled and used those tactics before... it was in the movie...

So there isn't much speculation as to the horse's background.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

COWCHICK77 said:


> He may very well have ulcers but if I were in this situation as the OP I wouldn't spend the $1500 on Gastro Gard for a $300 grade sale barn horse I recently picked up just to find out if maybe it is what is causing the problems.
> I spend that money on the horses that have proven themselves.
> I know I sound cold and snobby.
> 
> That is up to the OP to decide if it is worth it to her whether it be spending money on a vet, ulcer treatment, trainer and will she trust the horse afterwards.


I'll just mention this in case the OP wants to suggest trying ulcer treatment to the new owner before they try to work with the new horse. If the new owner is experienced enough to work with a remedial horse, they'll probably be savvy enough to have a vet out anyway to check dentition and soundness before training. 

If they're paying for that vet visit anyway, many vets will give a trial of compounded Omeprazole rather than requiring someone to pay for a full course of Gastrogard. I've treated several horses to the tune of about $50 bucks a treatment and cured their ulcers with the compounded Omeprazole. That's a price range most people are willing to go for, and there's no need to let a vet talk you into scoping or creating a big vet bill.

It will be helpful for the new owner to know the horse has a habit of biting. He may not have ulcers, but I'd probably treat him anyway if he was girthy (at the cheap price) because what I've seen ulcers and other nagging pains do is take the horse "up" a level. So if the horse used to nip, they might start chomping harder into other people and horses. A pushy horse might start driving behaviors. 

Having dealt with other horses that did come across the field at a person, I'd think Jax could have a lot of hope with the right person working with him. He sounds like he might be a "one trick" pony. @Knave dealt with a very determined and creative horse, but many horses have one thing they do and if you stymie it, that's all they've got. There are many things that are helpful in this situation. He's a smaller horse, he's a gelding, he has a calm nature, and someone might just need to learn his language and develop trust with him at a gradual pace. 

The horse in the Buck movie was a stallion (and for some reason they didn't try gelding him before working with him!?) , he'd been raised without a dam by someone who treated him like a kitten, and had spent the rest of his time turned out with a large group of stallions. The horse's entire life was like going to a special school to learn aggression.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

Okay. Maybe we’ll have to agree to disagree. How would you have gone about working with that horse?


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## 4horsehealth (Jan 10, 2019)

I notice that everything was good with the horse until you moved him to the new barn. Is he in the pasture with other more dominant horses. Sometimes this can cause a bad attitude. Or, is he expected to be the lead horse int he pasture. This can also cause a bad mental change not all horses are natural leaders and handle the role poorly. But it sounds to me like they horse may be proud cut or a cryptorchid. Those are just a few other things that come to mind with a gelding having mood and behavior changes. Pain could also be an issue.

Personally, before sending him back to auction, I would have brought him back home and tried to assess him where he was comfortable and the pecking order had already been established.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

Knave said:


> Okay. Maybe we’ll have to agree to disagree. How would you have gone about working with that horse?


I'd work with him in a round-pen (and round pen him) unattached and introduce the blanket slower.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

Honestly, I think he’d run you out of the round pen. The horse isn’t scared of pressure, he resents it.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

Knave said:


> The horse isn’t scared of pressure, he resents it.


I don't understand...? 
Horses aren't necessarily supposed to be "scared" of pressure. Most Horses resent/dislike pressure. Isn't that's kind-of the idea behind pressure and release?


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Knave said:


> Honestly, I think he’d run you out of the round pen. The horse isn’t scared of pressure, he resents it.


Actually I know he would in less then 2 minutes. Got to be one savvy horse person to deal with a stud like that one.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

My horses don’t resent pressure...


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

greentree said:


> I don’t see how that video relates to Jax... @*mulehugger* was not putting that pressure on Jax in either of the situations when he attacked.
> The horse in the video gave warnings that Jax did not.



that video doesn't relate to @mulehugger's dilemna, but it is an interesting thing to watch , and makes for interesting discussion, since we are talking about aggressive horses and how to deal with them.


What I saw was that when the man lost control of the horse's forward, then things went south. I mean, as long as he has the horse thinking about moving forward, in a circle around the man, he is just one notch on the safe side. But, when the horse turned and started to face the man, the horse had no thought of moving forward, only of focussing ON the man. And the man tried to get around to his hind end to get forward again, and that is where the horse got close to him, and that very thin barrier between them , the invisible barrier that normally makes a horse move away from pressure, got off balance, and the horse broke out and attacked.


When handling a dangerous horse on a line like that, the handler has to keep it short enough that the horse cant' get his head away and his feet lined up to kick the snot out of you, . . But . . he also can't push too hard on the hind if it means the head will come in on you, especially in a hrose that is broadcasting strong irritation like that one was.


I would never in a million years try what he did. But, from my armchair quarterback viewpoint, if he had been more careful to have the horse face more away from him and try to get the horse less concerned with the blanket behind him, and more interested in moving forward, that might not have happened. Still, that horse would have found the weak spot, sometime, with someone. Most horses , when confused, don't lunge and attach as soon as they are lined up to do so.


IT's NOT the man's fault. He may have been better able to keep it from happening, but he did NOT cuase it.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

mulehugger said:


> Is there anyone with legal experience willing to give this a once-over? I want to also include something in the agreement that says that they will not post any slander on social media if they are injured by Jax... just not sure on the wording. :think:


This is what needs discussing. mulehugger asked for help here. So get back on the who this thread is about now.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> I'll just mention this in case the OP wants to suggest trying ulcer treatment to the new owner before they try to work with the new horse. If the new owner is experienced enough to work with a remedial horse, they'll probably be savvy enough to have a vet out anyway to check dentition and soundness before training.
> 
> If they're paying for that vet visit anyway, many vets will give a trial of compounded Omeprazole rather than requiring someone to pay for a full course of Gastrogard. I've treated several horses to the tune of about $50 bucks a treatment and cured their ulcers with the compounded Omeprazole. That's a price range most people are willing to go for, and there's no need to let a vet talk you into scoping or creating a big vet bill.
> 
> ...


 @gottatrot if she is willing to go through treating for ulcers whether it be $50 or $1500 that is her decision, it is her horse.
I gave my opinion as if I were in her shoes. Regardless of the dollar amount the point I was making was that I probably wasn't going to throw a pile of money or effort into that horse.
I know that sounds cruel or heartless. I do not have the "save them all" attitude. I spent my time riding junk, buying sale yard crap and getting them to ride for the general public. I strive to ride and own better horses and it is important for what I do and what I want to do. There are plenty of other people who want to save every horse, I will leave it to them.


--------------------------------------------------------



What I do believe is the horse should go to the right person. It is not giving up and it is not caring about the horse if the horse goes to the right spot. Someone who is capable and wants to fix the issue, whatever it is. This isn't a dig on mulehugger at all. I think she is smart but if she was equipped to handle this horse it would of been done already without none of us knowing a thing about it. 



And since we are talking about the yellow horse in the Buck movie. Buck could deal with the horse in my opinion. The owner, no matter what Buck did to that horse, would never be able to uphold the training otherwise she and the horse wouldn't of been there in the first place. Buck knew that and he also knew she wouldn't put him down or sell him to someone who could handle or want to deal with him.
I think that is key to any horse/owner relationship. The needs and wants of the horse and owner should be able to be met. 

Examples: If a horse doesn't fits my needs or wants he would be more suited to a home where he fits in and I find a horse that fits my needs, possibly a horse that didn't fit someone else.
A horse requiring special medical needs going to a home where someone is happy to pay and provide the care needed.
Or like this case a horse who needs training by a more experienced person and willing to put the effort in.

It takes some pride swallowing to come to those realizations but are not the horse and person happier in the end if put in the right home?


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

α CMa;1970661085 said:


> I don't understand...?
> Horses aren't necessarily supposed to be "scared" of pressure. Most Horses resent/dislike pressure. Isn't that's kind-of the idea behind pressure and release?



They don't resent pressure unless it is pain. A horse's natural instinct is to push into pressure. We teach them with the release of pressure not the pressure itself obviously.

What knave means by resenting the pressure is, I believe, is the yellow horse learned to fight back to pressure via no consequences of him being pushy on his owner.
That horse isn't scared or worried he was inadvertently taught to push back and win to seek the release no matter how little the pressure may be.
Of course there were other factors to the horse's story but if you want to boil it down to pressure and release....


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

COWCHICK77 said:


> A horse's natural instinct is to push into pressure. We teach them with the release of pressure not the pressure itself.


Huh. Interesting.

Though, we are not the only ones who teach about release. It seems like horses usually do a pretty good job teaching each other, as well.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I think Buck touched on that. He said he could work and ride the horse, but most of the population would not be able to. And that is not a knock; just the truth.

I have been on this forum for a few years now. And I can only think of three, maybe four posters of this forum who could handle this horse (and one doesn’t post here any longer). That isn’t a knock on myself or the majority who post on here, just my opinion.

The problem with neurological, or brain issues, is sometimes no one knows what caused the problem(s). It is hard to fix a problem when the cause remains unknown. I still believe the kindest thing to do is put the horse down.


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## AndalusionTales (Dec 25, 2018)

Look up Downunder.com the trainer is Clinton Anderson if I remember right. He has a lot of free YouTube videos on how to get respect from your horse and turns a ton of disrespectful horses around. If you can afford it I highly recommend becoming a member to his site and watching all of his videos there before you work with your horse again.

You need to learn about training more and your horse needs to learn whose boss in the heard instead of trying to correct you.

Please be careful because while your horse is in this frame of mind, he’s very dangerous and will hurt you and others. The good news is it’s relatively easy to straighten them out again.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

COWCHICK77 said:


> They don't resent pressure unless it is pain. A horse's natural instinct is to push into pressure. We teach them with the release of pressure not the pressure itself obviously.
> 
> What knave means by resenting the pressure is, I believe, is the yellow horse learned to fight back to pressure via no consequences of him being pushy on his owner.
> That horse isn't scared or worried he was inadvertently taught to push back and win to seek the release no matter how little the pressure may be.
> Of course there were other factors to the horse's story but if you want to boil it down to pressure and release....


I owned a big percheron/Arab cross gelding. I bought him cheap, dirt cheap as an unbroke nearly 4 yr old. He definitely intimidated his owner/breeder and anyone who worked with him. 

After I brought him "home" to the barn I was boarding at, he broke out of the stall the very first night and made himself at home in the barn, eating everyone's hay. 

The next morning I took him out to lunge him and he came after me; ears pinned, teeth bared, pawing the air in my face. We had a CTJ moment and he never tried that again. 

But no one, ever could force him to do anything. One could ask but not force. Plus he never did that licky thing the gurus claim every horse will do. 

Yeah, some horses are resentful and fight back. That is just as much a natural behavior as any other.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

mulehugger said:


> You lost me at "provoked into attacking then beaten for that". Jax was not beaten in my care and never will be. He bit me twice and then lashed out at someone else with the intent to severely injure them and in doing so, he received a stick and string firmly across his face, as he deserved. That hardly qualifies as beating, so please don't try to introduce that type of nonsense this late into the thread.
> 
> *At that point my friend with 28+ years of experience training show Arabians stepped in to the pen with him and began vigorously petting his neck and face to get him to bite again. He lunged at my friend with teeth bared and my friend immediately brought a lunging stick down as hard as he could against his face.
> *
> ...


IMO the saddle is too long for his back and too wide. Possibly does not match the curve of his back either, but no way to tell from those pictures. Many other may agree, or not. I have spent years and thousands of $$$ finding a saddle to fit my horse, and have gained some experience in 45+ years of experience working with problem horses. 

I think this post of yours was unnecessarily rude. Please don't ask for opinions and advice if you only want to listen to those you agree with. 

I wouldn't have half of the knowledge that I do if I had never listened to other peoples' opinions. But I am always focused on learning and growing in knowledge.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

mulehugger said:


> Is there anyone with legal experience willing to give this a once-over? I want to also include something in the agreement that says that they will not post any slander on social media if they are injured by Jax... just not sure on the wording. :think:


I thought I had done this....lost in cyberspace!!

I think you are wasting your ink trying to prevent all the “slander on social media”. I am not even sure you can protect yourself. People hear and read what they want, and the rest flies right on by. Even YOU are doing that, with the “tack fitting” response to @AnitaAnne .


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

COWCHICK77 said:


> True. It is too bad horses get ruined in this manner. Making a horse a gentle lap dog with all the love and as you said, good intentions, with no consequences to bad behaviour. All this really boils down to is good horsemanship. You can have a gentle friendly horse but both parties need to know the boundries. Some horses know them better than others not just because of handling but some horses personalities allow for it. But the handling makes the difference between having a model citizen and not. And look where Leroy and the horse in question is at because of it.



I confess to not having read through the rest that's been added here until I got to this one - but honestly, honestly.... how hard is it to have the foresight that what's cute NOW (Oops laying her head in Daughter's lap to sleep starting at a week old, then progressing, as she got bigger, to bumping us to get us to play, pawing and dancing around, crowding, etc) will be a DISASTER when they're big enough to step on you, hurt you, and the behavior becomes almost hard-wired into their heads? It doesn't take long for a baby to be a yearling and some yearlings, esp long yearlings, are almost as big, as tall, as a grown horse - they just don't have the weight on them yet. Kids all though Oops was super adorbs... I saw trouble ahead by 3 months of age. I told them then, yeah. This is cute now but you better nip it in the bud or she's going to be a spoiled monster in a year.


I was right. Oops got corrected, in a firm, gentle way, and while she still thinks sometimes she can try us, she'll be three in February is turning out to be an absolute joy to start and be around. She's even bit me - just a few weeks ago... she wanted my attention taken from Gina. She got SHARPLY corrected - probably more than I should have, but I couldn't help myself - that snatching of my arm away and the immediate backhand to her nose, then my SHHHHing and driving her away happened before I could stop myself. I shouldn't have jack slapped her... maybe? IDK now. Because she's not even hinted at trying again. She's an affectionate horse, I don't mind the nuzzling she does - her nose is her fingers and hand, but demanding my attention by biting? Absolutely not. She's done it before, bit my boot real solid, got a kick for it. She's tried to come up behind me, crowd me, and nip (Again to demand my attention from Trigger... and I donkey kicked her square in the chest). I've tried so very hard to pattern my action and reaction around how they handle one another in the herd. 



That's long winded, but my point is - a little observation, taking time to understand what a HORSE IS without human involvement, and taking on board how they speak to one another, what their body language means, how they discipline one another to maintain herd cohesion and relative peace, and THINKING AHEAD with a baby and how you want them to view people, goes a long, long way to everyone being happy as that horse matures.


The more I think about this horse, the more like Leroy I think he is. Not spoiled in terms of appropriate care and companionship with humans, but spoiled in terms of being allowed to view humans as lower than him and to be accosted if they look at him wrong or don't give him his way all the time. That makes him exceedingly dangerous.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

I saw that clip a few years ago. I remember that the guy had to be driven to the ER for the wounds that stallion inflicted in that video. That guy isn't Buck... Buck worked with the stallion in the roundpen as well and the stallion also tried to attack Buck as he was standing with him in his paddock. If I remember correctly, the lady who owned him was idiotic enough to have 5+ stallions running in the same pasture together, which is what caused his dangerous behavior to culminate until he was too dangerous to handle. Buck came to the conclusion that he needed to be put down.


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## alexwein (Oct 16, 2009)

My suggestion is to find a trainer you trust and work with that person. No offense, but I think you could use some good advice on how to move forward with a new horse, especially one who has been through what this guy has likely been through. When getting a new horse, it's important to evaluate the horse as if it had no training at all, which is what you were told in the first place. I'd have done a LOT more prep work with a horse that you didn't know at all before asking so much of him. Is he "mean"? Probably not. Very few horses are truly 'mean.' Is he unprepared for what you are asking. I'd say for sure that is the case. Is he aggressive by nature? Perhaps. It's more likely he feels he has to defend himself and that's where the aggression is coming from. That's where a good and trusted trainer can help. I've worked with horses that have been aggressive. In fact, both of the mares I have now have gone through periods that others might describe as aggressive or even dangerous. I've been working with horses for over 50 years, but I'm not a trainer and I'm humble enough to know when I need help. I found someone I trusted who had trained a lot mores horses than I have and who specializes in horses that present with issues such as the ones they were displaying. She helped me through some pretty difficult times with my going horse, who was literally going after other horses while I was on her back (and bucked me off twice and much more), and this horse is now rock solid, willing and a trusted partner. I can work other horses off of her, intervene if another horse/rider get into trouble, ride her in the mountains, where my life is in her hands (hooves?). I do dressage with her, jump her, she's my 'everything' horse. But it took eight months of hard work and getting good guidance from an experienced trainer to get through her issues and consistent and patient training over a period of years. My younger horse, who came at me a year and a half ago very aggressively on the ground, has become a loving, focused horse on the ground and is getting there in the saddle. She's a slow build, but it's what SHE needs, so that's how it goes. It takes a lot of time, patience, and really good, solid guidance to get a worried, aggressive horse into a solid riding horse. Biting is a particularly tricky issue to have. I suspect you won't fix that problem with force or whips. You have to get to the underlying causes of his behavior and create a solid foundation to build on. It sounds like there is potential there. It just depends on how much you want to put into it, whether you can find the help you need, and how badly you want it to work with this horse. Just my two cents.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

[email protected] said:


> Look up Downunder.com the trainer is Clinton Anderson if I remember right. He has a lot of free YouTube videos on how to get respect from your horse and turns a ton of disrespectful horses around. If you can afford it I highly recommend becoming a member to his site and watching all of his videos there before you work with your horse again.
> 
> You need to learn about training more and your horse needs to learn whose boss in the heard instead of trying to correct you.
> 
> Please be careful because while your horse is in this frame of mind, he’s very dangerous and will hurt you and others. The good news is it’s relatively easy to straighten them out again.


 PREFACE: I am_ not_ an Anderson Fan. I think he does fine with spoiled, aggressive horses, but his technique is one that has started leaving a bad taste in my mouth, mostly because his fevered acolytes (HE's a HOT AUSSIE, HE CAN'T EVER BE WRONG) can't discern when its appropriate and when it's going to make a hot mess of a young, ignorant horse (Confusion and defiance are NOT the same thing, kids) and attempt to use it on said young ignorant horse and just make that young ignorant horse an emotional hot mess.



That said, I have done that myself in the past, looked to his vids for help, but I suspect with this horse, he's not going to cow tow to even someone like Anderson. I like how Anderson comes into the ring confident, prepared to be the bigger horse, and the horse knows it. It's especially visible in the Running Scared video and also the one with that one woman from over by Plano or Allen TX with, I think, a strawberry frame paint (Or whatever you call it). THOSE horses were allowed to take dangerous liberties with humans and had the humans too afraid to discipline the bratty horse.

I COULD BE WRONG, but OP has repeatedly said any attempt at correction causes this horse to try to escalate and react with more and more violence. An initial reaction like that is to be expected, but I think this horse is wired to fight, not to flight or freezing. He's been mishandled since birth, IMO. He's going to need the right person, someone with more experience than just watching a handful of videos on youtube, to get him lined out.

Regarding Buck - Did anyone catch on to the fact his owner had, I think, 27 stallions on her place 'because she just liked them'? I'm not of the All Stallions are Jerks and Must be Gelded brigade, but 27 is excessive and there is no. way. she had time to invest and make sure each and every one of them were properly socialized. I think Buck's ultimate fate was 100% of his owner's making. I'm pretty sure, from what I could gather from the articles I've read about this story that she was one of those Baby Them types.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

AnitaAnne said:


> IMO the saddle is too long for his back and too wide. Possibly does not match the curve of his back either, but no way to tell from those pictures. Many other may agree, or not. I have spent years and thousands of $$$ finding a saddle to fit my horse, and have gained some experience in 45+ years of experience working with problem horses.
> 
> I think this post of yours was unnecessarily rude. Please don't ask for opinions and advice if you only want to listen to those you agree with.
> 
> I wouldn't have half of the knowledge that I do if I had never listened to other peoples' opinions. But I am always focused on learning and growing in knowledge.


Our words are not the same. I did not say Jax was "beaten", because he wasn't.

Jax was also not provoked when he initially attacked me, unless you consider pulling up a cinch enough provocation for the horse to try to remove your bicep from your arm. When Jax bit me, I hit him on the neck in an effort to make him let go of my arm. He bit me again, and I hit him again on the neck to make him let go of my arm again, at which point he reared up and tried to lay me out with his front hooves. I got myself out of the paddock to avoid being killed. To keep the pressure on, my friend stepped in and started moving his feet while petting his neck and face. He lunged at my friend to attack, got a stick and string applied across his face, and backed off. As many have said on this thread and to quote Clinton Anderson, horses learn from the release of pressure. If the pressure had been released after rearing and trying to strike me, it would have reinforced his aggression further. It was necessary, if not imperative for us to make sure that Jax was the one to back away from the fight.

As I said twice before, Jax was not alone in his pasture. He was with my Molly mule and a sorrel mare I don't own when he walked up and attacked me again. 

You gave an opinion when you said my tack was ill-fit. To say my horse was beaten and that I put him in solitary confinement isn't an opinion - both are inaccurate statements and I responded accordingly.


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> PREFACE: I am_ not_ an Anderson Fan. I think he does fine with spoiled, aggressive horses, but his technique is one that has started leaving a bad taste in my mouth, mostly because his fevered acolytes (HE's a HOT AUSSIE, HE CAN'T EVER BE WRONG) can't discern when its appropriate and when it's going to make a hot mess of a young, ignorant horse (Confusion and defiance are NOT the same thing, kids) and attempt to use it on said young ignorant horse and just make that young ignorant horse an emotional hot mess.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think Clinton has a lot of sound advice to offer and that his method has had tons of proven success. Practically anyone with two legs and two arms can apply his method to a horse, but what a lot of people forget is that the method is only half the battle. The other half is your confidence level when working with said horse - a vast majority of people who came face to face with a wild brumby stallion or the palomino stallion in Buck's video, would end up getting injured (like me!) or killed, even if they applied the method with exact precision... because they lack the confidence that Clinton and Buck have built up over decades of dealing with every horse on the spectrum. That's why in all of those Youtube videos mentioned you see Clinton and Buck applying their methods to the aggressive horse before the owner. 

I could try to apply the method to Jax, but he's no fool and would quickly try to lay me out again, which would only create more problems in his brain for someone else to try to fix. The best thing I can do for him is stay away until I find an experienced handler to take him on.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

mulehugger said:


> I think Clinton has a lot of sound advice to offer and that his method has had tons of proven success. Practically anyone with two legs and two arms can apply his method to a horse, but what a lot of people forget is that the method is only half the battle. The other half is your confidence level when working with said horse - a vast majority of people who came face to face with a wild brumby stallion or the palomino stallion in Buck's video, would end up getting injured (like me!) or killed, even if they applied the method with exact precision... because they lack the confidence that Clinton and Buck have built up over decades of dealing with every horse on the spectrum. That's why in all of those Youtube videos mentioned you see Clinton and Buck applying their methods to the aggressive horse before the owner.
> 
> I could try to apply the method to Jax, but he's no fool and would quickly try to lay me out again, which would only create more problems in his brain for someone else to try to fix. The best thing I can do for him is stay away until I find an experienced handler to take him on.



He does have good advice, I don't disagree there. I think the problem I have is like with Parelli, you get followers who misunderstand when and how to apply the concepts, and also apply it to the wrong horse for the wrong problem. That's more my issue than anything. I watch the heck out of his and Warwick Schiller's videos. It's good to learn all you can, IMO. I don't think you can accumulate too much good knowledge on horses. Sometimes even bad information is good to know - so you can learn there's a better way or unravel the problems someone else created with that bad information.


Good choice on deciding to get help though. He may, or may not be a lost cause, but either way, right now, he's dangerous... and either way - it's going to take time to fix. The advantage here is he's young. IIRC, he's 4? 



Also how did I misunderstand the TRAINER is BUCK not the horse that had to be put down? Holy crap... LOL I feel thupid.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> He does have good advice, I don't disagree there. I think the problem I have is like with Parelli, you get followers who misunderstand when and how to apply the concepts, and also apply it to the wrong horse for the wrong problem. That's more my issue than anything.


Totally.

Here's the thing: 
C.A., P.P, and the other "big name trainers" do have good advice. However, you have to keep in mind that a lot of them are salesmen - meaning they need to appeal and project to a large audience. A lot of them tend to give the "it's so "easy" that anyone can do it by doing my [x], [x],and [x] method." 

They (the trainers) have had years upon years doing it and working with several different types of horses. People who do things for a long time can make things look easy. They (the owners) are sometimes people who have only worked with a small, select few horses. A lot of people, especially the new horse people, get the wrong idea about it. There isn't a lot that can substitute for hands on experience. 

I've seen people on YouTube who so claim "Oh, yeah. I follow and watch C.A.'s videos, and I worship him, and I went to his clinic this one time, so I know how to do his method", but when you watch their video's - and I don't say this to throw shade or anything - they don't know what they are doing. They horse gets confused and therefore often misbehaves. Then, misinterpreting and incorrectly following C.A.'s "method, punishes the horse for being "dominant."


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

This has been interesting to read. I don't think I ever came across an "aggressive" horse. Yes, a few of them have tried to intimidate me (rearing at me, barreling down at me at a gallop), but we were always friends after I called their bluff and they folded. So I have nothing constructive to add in terms of experience. However, that doesn't stop me from thinking about what I would do/try - with the intend of getting results while staying reasonably safe.

Most horses are trained to make pressure go away by yielding to it. I think this horse has learned to make pressure go away by escalating fast and hard. As soon as there is something he doesn't wish to do, which means pressure is applied to him from his point of view, he turns and strikes - because it has worked in the past. The first time may have been a coincidence (and probably was), but he's learned quickly what works...as most horses do. It is not his fault that he has learned an unintended and undesired lesson, but here we are.

Since we cannot outmuscle the horse, the only alternative I can see is to apply positive reinforcement in a significant way; as in, "If you don't toe the line, you don't eat!" (or, "You will eat if and only if you toe the line!") The idea is to use the "cosmos" to create discomfort for him, and to teach him that, through cooperative behavior, he empowers the owner to give him comfort. That way he has nothing to fight against. In order to avoid adverse health events, it is of course important that he is given the chance to do the right thing often, for frequent rewards in small amounts.

On the other hand, I could also reason that there is a number of good, willing horses headed for slaughter while the owner of this horse risks her life to "save" this one. I would argue that she is doing it for herself more than for the horse, or she'd contemplate the fate of a different horse that would not try to kill her but is in this horse's stead headed for the dog food factory.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

mulehugger said:


> I could try to apply the method to Jax, but he's no fool and would quickly try to lay me out again, which would only create more problems in his brain for someone else to try to fix. *The best thing I can do for him is stay away until I find an experienced handler to take him on.*


This IMO would be best for you and best for the horse. 

As much as people, be they big name gurus or unknown experienced horse people, try to explain methods that work, just reading about the methods or even watching just is not enough to gain the experience needed to handle and rehab a problem horse. 

I know that I would want to assess the horse where he is before I would consider if I could help the horse or not, and I already know I couldn't help you because you appear to have shut your mind to anything I post. But maybe not; maybe you are considering that the horse could be sore and not be willing to ride in a saddle that is uncomfortable. 

Or maybe you do understand that a horse may consider that he must bite back when a person "pokes" him. Like a wrestling match that escalates into a knock-down drag out fight. 

The only reason I continue to even write anything is because there are people on here that do respect and appreciate when I share knowledge. Someone reading this thread may have a similar problem and choose to get help instead of selling. 

But right now you are not safe around your horse, and he is not understanding what you want. You may never be able to trust him. So best to turn him over to someone that can work with him, either by paying a trainer or rehoming the horse. 

If those two options aren't available, then having him PTS would be IMO preferable to sending off to auction. 

All horse teach us something, and sometimes the lesson is a hard one.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

I think if you want a contract with any teeth to it an attorney should write it up. Sometimes it costs far more to enforce one however. But one thing I would do is list all his known issues on the bill of sale just to protect yourself and be sure to have the buyer sign your copy.
I wish you success in finding the right person to take this horse on. He will be a project and success is the goal. Failure could result in a severely injured person and/or a terribly abused horse.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> I owned a big percheron/Arab cross gelding. I bought him cheap, dirt cheap as an unbroke nearly 4 yr old. He definitely intimidated his owner/breeder and anyone who worked with him.
> 
> After I brought him "home" to the barn I was boarding at, he broke out of the stall the very first night and made himself at home in the barn, eating everyone's hay.
> 
> ...



I am going to respectfully disagree. Resentfulness is a result of too much pressure or no release from pressure whatever the case may be. Horses are not born resentful. I believe there to some genetic predisposition where if not handled well can quickly create a resentful horse over others but I don't find "natural".


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

mmshiro said:


> Most horses are trained to make pressure go away by yielding to it. I think this horse has learned to make pressure go away by escalating fast and hard. As soon as there is something he doesn't wish to do, which means pressure is applied to him from his point of view, he turns and strikes - because it has worked in the past. The first time may have been a coincidence (and probably was), but he's learned quickly what works...as most horses do. It is not his fault that he has learned an unintended and undesired lesson, but here we are.
> 
> Since we cannot outmuscle the horse, the only alternative I can see is to apply positive reinforcement in a significant way; as in, "If you don't toe the line, you don't eat!" (or, "You will eat if and only if you toe the line!") The idea is to use the "cosmos" to create discomfort for him, and to teach him that, through cooperative behavior, he empowers the owner to give him comfort. That way he has nothing to fight against. In order to avoid adverse health events, it is of course important that he is given the chance to do the right thing often, for frequent rewards in small amounts.


The problem is that horses may never correlate whether they are eating or not with their behavior. That's kind of a far stretch and can make a horse more stressed due to unpredictability in the environment. It can be more helpful to make the environment very predictable (your food arrives at 5 pm sharp each day) to lower the horse's stress. 

Now it's different if you are using a treat right at the moment you have a good behavior, that is clear positive reinforcement. 

*Just because a horse learns that after applying an escalated force to a situation that pressure is removed, that doesn't mean a trainer has to never move away or let off pressure in a dangerous situation. 
*
If that were the only way to train horses, I'd for sure be dead by now. Watch horses in a field. They don't only control each other through physical force. They understand that dominance can come much more subtly. The biggest, strongest horse is not always the one that gets all the resources. In fact, sometimes it is the smallest pony that gets the first dibs on things. It is the same with dogs; sometimes a Chihuahua sits and eats while the Great Dane watches and drools. 

With an aggressive horse that is dangerous, rather than trying to out muscle him, it is safer to stay safe while blocking the dangerous behaviors (never giving him an opportunity to do more than threaten them), and then to teach the horse that you can control his movements and what he does. 

Say I take out a hot horse that doesn't know me, and he is blaming me for his anxiety about being taken away from a herd. As we walk, I have resources such as tack, space, directing his energy away from my body, watching his teeth and hooves to stay safe. If he's aggressive when loose, I find a way to get him into a position where I can control him better, perhaps I will wait until he comes into a small pen and is distracted by feed, then I can reach over a fence to put a halter or bridle on so I can control him better.

If my safety is actually in danger, meaning I get in a bad position where he is kicking right at me or biting, I get out and away. It's not about that one incident or "battle," it's about the psychological war. Over time, the horse learns that I can take him out and have him do things like stand tied, go around the perimeter of a field, move around me in a circle. I can control the pace and speed he goes. I say when the horse can stop and rest, or graze, or now he has to trot. If you control the horse's space and movement, and also resources (by giving or withholding treats, or rest), you can assume the role of both the most assertive horse and the trusted leader. 

Something else: someone said that what the average person is missing that CA, Buck and other trainers have is confidence. I don't believe that is the key. I believe they are probably more successful because of being able to read the horse, and good timing. Timing to respond to a horse's intention before the horse acts is crucial. I think I learned that from @tinyliny.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Good post @gottatrot.




> Something else: someone said that what the average person is missing that CA, Buck and other trainers have is confidence. I don't believe that is the key. I believe they are probably more successful because of being able to read the horse, and good timing. Timing to respond to a horse's intention before the horse acts is crucial. I think I learned that from @*tinyliny* .



One thing I will add is the trainers or people who have the ability to deal with these types of horses are the ones who have the confidence to see it through where maybe others less experienced may bow out when things seem to get worse or escalate before they get better. I agree confidence is not the only factor needed to be successful in this situation. I think we have all seen people who are confident or over-confident but lack the knowledge get their a$$ handed to them.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

gottatrot said:


> The problem is that horses may never correlate whether they are eating or not with their behavior. That's kind of a far stretch and can make a horse more stressed due to unpredictability in the environment. It can be more helpful to make the environment very predictable (your food arrives at 5 pm sharp each day) to lower the horse's stress.


I liked the rest of your post - it was very informative. I'd just clarify something: Suppose I faced that horse that would respond to my attempts to control his space and/or his feet with escalating aggression, and I was actually interested in doing something about it. Yes, I would bring his food regularly, but his demeanor towards me as I come with the food would determine whether or not it gets left behind when I leave. Is he asking for permission to eat, or is he demanding his food? Can I move him away from the food for a second before allowing him to come in, and will he respond submissively? I'd also start doing this with a barrier between me and the horse - so as long as the hay stays on my side of the fence, he can do whatever he likes without getting me in danger.

Oftentimes poorly socialized horses stay hungry for quite some time until they learn herd etiquettes and are permitted to join in. I bet if he's hungry enough, he'll start exploring strategies that'll get him fed.

The biggest problem is that aggression is now a tool in his arsenal that he'll never unlearn, and when it manifests itself suddenly, it can have serious consequences.


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

COWCHICK77 said:


> You have a lot of experience with these types of horses?


Stallions? No, but I have worked with "dangerous" and "aggressive" horses before.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

mmshiro said:


> This has been interesting to read. I don't think I ever came across an "aggressive" horse. Yes, a few of them have tried to intimidate me (rearing at me, barreling down at me at a gallop), but we were always friends after I called their bluff and they folded. So I have nothing constructive to add in terms of experience. However, that doesn't stop me from thinking about what I would do/try - with the intend of getting results while staying reasonably safe.
> 
> Most horses are trained to make pressure go away by yielding to it. I think this horse has learned to make pressure go away by escalating fast and hard. As soon as there is something he doesn't wish to do, which means pressure is applied to him from his point of view, he turns and strikes - because it has worked in the past. The first time may have been a coincidence (and probably was), but he's learned quickly what works...as most horses do. It is not his fault that he has learned an unintended and undesired lesson, but here we are.
> 
> ...


Before I read any further I really like this post. I think that you put a lot of interesting thought into it. I have seen a reward of eating for good behavior work myself. I haven’t seen it used for years though. 

It is your last paragraph which I find absolutely on target. Like when I put too much time into Keno, it is about pride and not about the horse anymore at that point.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

COWCHICK77 said:


> I am going to respectfully disagree. Resentfulness is a result of too much pressure or no release from pressure whatever the case may be. Horses are not born resentful. I believe there to some genetic predisposition where if not handled well can quickly create a resentful horse over others but I don't find "natural".


This is what I meant. Thank you for explaining it.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

mmshiro said:


> ...Yes, I would bring his food regularly, but his demeanor towards me as I come with the food would determine whether or not it gets left behind when I leave. Is he asking for permission to eat, or is he demanding his food? Can I move him away from the food for a second before allowing him to come in, and will he respond submissively?...


I think you have good thoughts, but I think there are some distinctions that could be made. As @Knave said, are you rewarding the horse with food for the behavior you want? Or are you asking him to figure out that a lack of food means his behavior is wrong? 

My issue would be if someone didn't feed a horse (putting him at risk for ulcers, colic, etc) at all for a day or two, trying to teach him a lesson that he may or may not learn. Plus those of us who've had to cut back a horse's feed for health/vet reasons can appreciate that even a mellow horse can get very "aggro" and desperate while going through this change. 

We're not talking about horses being loud or pushy during feeding, but I've observed some owners trying to change this behavior without success, and sometimes just doing a different routine "blocked" the behavior and the horse stopped. Like one barn owner would delay feeding the loud horse, or not give him his grain, trying to teach him a lesson but he never figured it out. Eventually she just put his feed in the bin before he came in to get it, and there were no more behavioral issues from him. 


mmshiro said:


> Oftentimes poorly socialized horses stay hungry for quite some time until they learn herd etiquettes and are permitted to join in. I bet if he's hungry enough, he'll start exploring strategies that'll get him fed.


I agree with the second sentence, but those strategies might also just be more aggressive. Some horses are not overly creative.

The first sentence I thought about...however, you're talking about horses in an unnatural (i.e. stressful) environment rather than working with natural/instinctual behavior. I don't believe there is such a thing as a horse in a natural environment going hungry because he is not behaving appropriately. Horses fighting over resources are an unnatural system we have created by keeping them in places there is not enough food (or giving horses food that is more desirable, such as putting hay out that is easier to eat than overgrazed grass). 

In poorly managed feeding situations I've observed, it's not a situation where unmannerly horses don't eat until they learn how to get along with the herd. Rather, more aggressive horses chase off the more submissive ones, and end up with all the food. 

Have you ever seen a horse chase another off a patch of grass? If they did, it was probably about space rather than food. It wasn't because the horse was not following herd etiquette (and are there poorly socialized horses in natural herds?). They will browse right next to each other, maybe nip a piece of grass right next to another horse's nose, or maybe move a horse if they are in their space. But they don't normally fight over food. They can have to wait for water if they are not dominant, but that would be rare.











mmshiro said:


> The biggest problem is that aggression is now a tool in his arsenal that he'll never unlearn, and when it manifests itself suddenly, it can have serious consequences.


True. Some horses due to personality or past experiences are only suitable for experienced handlers/owners. @DanteDressageNerd has had some good discussion about her "professional only" horse on her journal.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

> The biggest problem is that aggression is now a tool in his arsenal that he'll never unlearn, and when it manifests itself suddenly, it can have serious consequences.


This is the statement I disagree with. IMO horses CAN unlearn aggressive behaviors. But it takes time to shape the behavior into one that is acceptable. Lots of time and careful training. Mistakes can't be made. 


My big Percheron/Arab cross got much better over time. He was perfectly safe with me, but didn't put up with others quite so much. 

When he was about 10, a friend rode him. She is a very aggressive, controlling type person and she tried to make him collect by cranking hard on his mouth and driving hard with her legs. She was very strong...but not stronger than him. He just wouldn't go. I could see his anger rising...he pushed her into literally kicking and kicking him until she became too tired and gave up. She did not have a whip with her, and I would not have let her ride with one. If she had popped him with the whip he would have...well I'm not sure but that definitely would have been too much pressure for him to stoically accept. 

But he didn't toss her into the sky as I knew he was quite capable of doing. He just gritted his teeth and stood still...I was watching the whole time ready to intervene yet was still shocked to see how much damage she did to him in such a short time. His lips were bleeding...and he was angry with me for three days afterward. But he didn't do anything aggressive. 

Two years prior to that, he kicked the instructor at a clinic I was riding in. The instructor had asked us to halt, then he came up to my horse's left shoulder and poked him. Baby responded by striking out with his left fore! Baby did not strike to harm though, it was a warning and he barely grazed him. 

The next day Baby had a fit as he was sick and tired of being in the stall for three days and would not settle down. He was pounding the ground with full force. Of course the instructor proclaimed him "dangerous" and told me I needed a safer horse :smile: 


BTW, Baby was very aggressive towards other geldings. He could be pastured with mares but not geldings or he would run them right through the fence, if he couldn't stomp them into the ground first. He was 1300 pounds of draft power with an Arabian's agility and speed...


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

@AnitaAnne, what stands out to me in your post is that he didn't unlearn his aggressive behavior at all. He learned to control it around you partly because of your dedication to training him and probably partly because you became a trusted herd member but he still showed aggression towards other people and horses.


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## Slave2Ponies (May 25, 2013)

On the other hand, I could also reason that there is a number of good, willing horses headed for slaughter while the owner of this horse risks her life to "save" this one. I would argue that she is doing it for herself more than for the horse, or she'd contemplate the fate of a different horse that would not try to kill her but is in this horse's stead headed for the dog food factory.[/QUOTE]

I strongly agree with this, as I read this interesting thread! 

I too own a horse that is dominant and mouthy. She's been a trusty mount for years, but I have no doubt she would quickly become dangerous in the wrong hands. Clever horses escalate bad behaviors so quickly....and I suspect this horse already had the habit when you got him. 

One opinion I have about always winning the battle with a horse.... There's a line there that you can't cross if you don't have the knowledge. Sometimes you have to quit if you don't know how to fix something. I've been told that if you repeat the same pattern of bad behavior 3X in a row, you have an ingrained bad habit. So this VERY dangerous habit is ingrained, we've established that I guess.

This horse could literally kill someone. I even cringe to think that people are going near this horse. Even if he were rehabilitated by an expert, he could revert to this behavior in the future in the wrong hands. Knowing this, you're responsible to make hard choices. 

I'm really sorry this happened to you. It's not your fault and doesn't make you a poor horsewoman. Unfortunately, it's a common story these days, and not just with auction horses. You tried to give this horse another chance and did your best. Time to unload him in whatever way you can, emotionally and financially. Learn from this: the price of a horse is fraction of its cost.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

JCnGrace said:


> @AnitaAnne, what stands out to me in your post is that he didn't unlearn his aggressive behavior at all. He learned to control it around you partly because of your dedication to training him and probably partly because you became a trusted herd member but he still showed aggression towards other people and horses.


I did not explain well. I'm not the best writer, lol. 

I was not his herd-mate, we were partners but I led or directed him in most things. 

I was trying to show an approximate time line that relates to how long it can take to work with a smart, dominant horse. 

No-one touched or rode him besides me until he was 8 yrs old. It took me six months to get him going under saddle, but part of that was because his feet were in horrible condition. He had not had any hoof care since he was a 2 yr old because everyone feared him so much. I bought him in his 4th year. 

My regular instructor and some other clinicians had never poked him(really why would they do such a thing?) so I was as surprised as the one he struck as that man was. s. (maybe he learnt not to poke people's horses?) 

It took an additional time to get him to where he would tolerate other people. An instructor from Holland rode him and was very pleased with his training. 

He did not kill or maim or harm my friend in any way, even though he was furious with her. But that was after I had him for 6 years. 


Fixing problem horses takes time, lots of time. My horse Baby was quite large, powerful and athletic, so maybe a bit more of a challenge than a smaller horse. He would have made a fabulous knight's horse! His ability to protect himself and his rider would have been an asset back in the dark ages 

If anyone thinks that 30-60 days at a trainers will fix this horse Jax, well...IMO he will need more life 6 months to a year, depending on how easy he is to train.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

An old cowboy that helped me learn to ride many years ago had a saying.

"Ain't a horse that can't be rode.
Ain't a cowboy can't be throwed."

He might can be ridden, but anybody, no matter who, could have a bad day and get killed by that horse.

The only hope that I see for him becoming reliable is if it turns out that he has a retained testicle and someone removes it. If he is a maturing stallion, that could be his issue. The cost of the surgery would probably be about $1000 or so. There would also be the blood work to diagnose the issue. My guess is the total cost would be around $1,500. And it might not work.........


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## Kerri8243 (Oct 28, 2012)

*Thanks*

I have a horse with similar issues and all your advice may help me with my problem horse. The person who talked about starting on their shoulder really intrigued me, thanks!


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## Kerri8243 (Oct 28, 2012)

How do you tell if they have ulcers? Feel?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

AnitaAnne said:


> This is the statement I disagree with. IMO horses CAN unlearn aggressive behaviors. But it takes time to shape the behavior into one that is acceptable. Lots of time and careful training. Mistakes can't be made.


I don't think it's that they "unlearn" that they can bite, but I think people are naive if they don't realize that horses understand they can kick and bite you. They kick and bite each other all the time. 

If you are only around well trained horses that were taught from a young age not to bite or kick people, this might not be obvious. If you're around horses that were left unhandled, or start young horses, it becomes obvious that horses begin with the idea that they can bite or kick people and have to learn that they shouldn't. Most older, unhandled or very little handled horses I've been around will try biting people a time or three. 

Horses have brains, use reasoning and are not simply input/output machines. With the right conditions and right triggers, any horse can behave this same way. That's why it's rather extreme in my opinion to consider horses that do certain things such as rear, kick or bite are basically ruined or a huge risk to kill people. 

It can be very risky to deal with a horse that has started to try biting, and that is why this is a tenuous time where the horse can turn the behavior into a serious habit.

What can change over time is that the horse can be taught that there is no need to respond this way. It requires that the horse becomes more tolerant of handling and accepts it without feeling upset. That is a conditioning process. It also requires that the horse trusts the handler enough to allow close proximity and handling.
@Kerri8243: Vets can scope for ulcers but that won't show hindgut ulcers. You can test for blood in the stool, but that will only be positive if the ulcers have been recently bleeding. Not all sores bleed or bleed intermittently. Some vets like mine think it is harmless to just treat a horse if they seem at risk and show several signs of ulcers, such as girthiness, going off feed, teeth grinding, weight loss, sudden change in behavior, biting at sides. 

If you just moved a horse to a new barn and they are suddenly grinding their teeth, leaving feed and behaving anxiously or aggressively, you're probably safe to assume they have developed ulcers. Usually if you treat for several days, you will notice the symptoms receding, which means you were correct about ulcers.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Okay I didn't read everyone's replies. My approach with this horse would start from the ground. Gain respect on the ground first.

Can the horse walk, trot, canter and whoa in a roundpen? Can he do so immediately on command? If not, that is where you start.

Respect comes from the ground.

If the horse has not been under saddle long, his reaction to a pinching girth is to bite. So we have 2 separate problems: an attitude problem and a girthing problem. 

1) establish yourself as a leader on the ground 
2) Figure out what holes this horse has in his training and start filling those in- again from the ground

When I was a child, i worked with an expensive horse who kicked someone in the head, giving them 70 stitches. The horse was an angel for 14 year old me. I walked in the pen with confidence and insisted the horse move his feet. Starting with backing on a lead rope and yielding the hindquarters. I lunged and rode without issue. The problem was the owner would drop hay, and back away from the horse. The horse assumed he was making the owner yield. It was an inexperienced owner problem rather than a rank horse problem. 

You do not want to escalate to needing a stick, rake or shovel. Start in a mid sized paddock. A roundpen is too small for an aggressive horse. Move the horses feet in the pen. You want to give the horse the option to escape and move away. The problem with a tied horse is that the horse is trapped and cannot choose to flee. If the horse is truly rank you can get a rake for defense, but i have never needed one. If a horse is that aggressive, i would get a professional.

If you do not feel comfortable entering the pen- get a bucket of feed. Wait on the other side of the fence with a whip. Put the bucket down and drive the horse away from the fence. Once the horse backs away, ask the horse to wait. Reward by feeding the horse and walking away. You are essentially teaching the horse to yield to you. The food is yours until you allow him to have it. This does not work well with a herd. You want to do this individually. All horses should be taught to back and wait to be fed. Simple manners.

I'm not certain you have the experience to train this horse. Is there a mentor you can work with?

Whenever i get a horse with an unknown history, i spend the first month on the ground...unless the horse is perfect on the lunge, we work through all the typical exercises - lunging, double lunging, and long lining. Unless that foundation is built we do not move on to ridden work.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

have his teeth checked. A serious dental issue can cause bad bad behavior. Also it sounds like maybe you rushed the rides because he was easy at first. Be sure to stretch the front legs while cinching so you do not pinch that tender skin. tighten wait, tighten wait. Sounds like you need to start over.


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## csimkunas6 (Apr 18, 2010)

After reading through this thread, and everyone's posts...OP I think you have made the right decision looking for someone experienced to take him! As far as preventing people from posting on social media, thats difficult to do but if you find the right person to work with him and they know what theyre getting into, they shouldnt post nonsense on social media, maybe a before and after type of thing to help promote themselves but shouldnt be anything more IMO.

I dealt with a horse similar to OP's Jax, no matter who you were, how you approached this horse, he would be aggressive, ears pinned, trying to bite, kick, ect. Most of it was manageable however, I was given this horse as a "training horse" for a class (was in school at the time). We were just about done with the class, and we were at the end of the semester, nothing abnormal about this day, right as I was passing the Booth window, the horse had decided he had had enough, reared up, came down at my face ears pinned, teeth barred. I was able to protect my face with my hand, which he tore through the glove, and left me with a fairly nasty wound which required several stitches, and has left a lifetime reminder of this day.

My instructor at the time told me after, if he or another horse ever attempts to do that, do whatever you can to protect yourself. She told me that day, that the horse was going after my head/throat to take me down to the ground. I can say, I was terrified of that horse after that and I asked for a different training horse. My confidence was completely broken after that and I questioned everything I did with horses. Luckily, I was given a new training horse, and completely regained all my confidence, and probably then some LOL.

The horse that went after me was absolutely horrible on the ground, he watched for any moment of a person's weakness to take advantage of the situation. I must have shown frustration, insecurity, uncertainty in what I was asking at the moment, who knows but a horse like that IMO is no fun to be around. I personally dont feel like I need to be on guard for my life every second Im with . horse, cautious, of course, but not in constant watch/fear of dying or being seriously injured (on purpose) from a horse Im around let alone own!

Anyways, send him off, sell him, ect....buy a new horse that you can enjoy, regain your confidence, dont constantly question everything you do and if you did something wrong to provoke your horse to attack you....not fun! Learn from it and move on! Best of Luck!


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

This showed up on my Facebook feed. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=...RyGXfsOrkN3K4Y&feature=youtu.be&v=zW9ZujA8MNo

While i entirely agree with the roundpen work done in the video, i do not agree with deliberately provoking the horse. I would have looped a line tight around a post before aggravating the horse. As it seems like he is reinforcing the- if i knock you flat, i can escape - mentality. With a looped line around the fence, you can get away - it would buy you a few seconds. Not a horse i would want to take on. To continue lunging the horse, release the rope from the fence. 

Or perhaps putting the horse in stocks and doing some clicker training, rub the horse down with a stuffed glove attached to a stick. At least then you have some safety, vs getting knocked to the ground. 

Again I'm not certain it would be worth it. What happens when the behaviour reappears with different handlers or in a different environment which happens to remind the horse of past mistreatment? This is called spontaneous recovery of a previously extinguished response (in psychology).

Unfortunately, once humans create a problem horse either to abuse or mistreatment, it is not easily undone. My Paso fino has been safe for a year and he still shakes if i walk by with a stick. I do rub him with the stick and he will relax, but it took us a year to get this far. His mental scars will never truly fade. The best i can do is try to create new, positive experiences and memories, and shape new behaviors.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

That is the very definition of insanity......


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Here is another option for working with aggressive behavior...must watch the entire clip to understand


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

4horses said:


> This showed up on my Facebook feed.
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=...RyGXfsOrkN3K4Y&feature=youtu.be&v=zW9ZujA8MNo
> 
> ...


It takes lots and lots of time to shape the behavior to one that is acceptable, and to change it into a lifelong habit. Years and consistency. His mental scars can fade, IMO. My TB/Appy mare was terrified of whips, yet after a year of consistency, I was able to add in riding with my Dressage whip. She just had to learn to trust me as she was not aggressive. I could tap her with it and she understood it was just an aid, not a correction or punishment. 

Also agree with Exposing the horse to aggression, even after years of correct behavior, could in fact bring back that aggressive horse.


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## SKB1994 (Sep 28, 2014)

I do have some experience with aggressive horses. This story is somewhat complicated and involves 2 horses that were running in the same herd that both exhibited dangerous aggression. But with different results than you may expect. 

The first horse in this story is Blue, a big percheron cross, was a cryptorchid and later gelded. Definitely high up on the totem pole in the herd. Absolutely darling to handle and ride after crypt surgery. Several years later he viciously attacked one of the mares in the herd, an adorable little mare and one of our best beginner horses, Pixie. Biting and stomping and rolled her into the side of the barn. Had we not been in the barn and gone running to stop the attack I'm confident he would've killed her. 

Pixie was a somewhat hard keeper. But that's not unexpected when you have 25+ horses living in a herd together, and she was lower on the totem pole. After the attack we separated her from the main herd and put her in with a couple other hard keeping horses. 

A few weeks after the attack on Pixie my friend and I were standing in her pasture, chatting and picking manure. Pixie approached us calm and friendly and was standing calmly in front of me seeming to enjoy our company. I had just made a comment to my friend that Pixie ought to be sold on to her own family and retire as a trail string horse, because she was simply too sweet and really seemed like she would be happier having her own child to pack around. Surely enough the words had barely left my mouth and she jumped forward, teeth bared and latched onto my shoulder. I ended up beating her off of me with my pitchfork. 

After the initial shock wore off, and checking that she didn't break skin through my heavy winter jacket. I marched into the office and demanded that the barn owner have the vet out ASAP because something had to be wrong with her to be attacked by a gelding she had been living with for at least 5 years and then to uncharacteristically bite me.

Surely enough, she had very severe Lyme disease. I'm certain that Blue (the gelding) knew she was sick and behaving how a herd stallion would, was trying to drive her away from the herd or kill her. I also knew that one of our best kid's horses was not by any means aggressive. 

Anyway, the way you describe your horse calmly approaching and 'randomly' attacking reminded me of this situation I had been in myself. Part of me wonders if maybe the horse, or maybe even you, could be sick. In this particular case I'm leaning towards it being the horse, since he has attacked multiple people. But anyway just an idea I've had, since Lyme can progress to neurological symptoms as well and I know other posters have mentioned ulcers or being 'wired wrong.'


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## mulehugger (Jan 4, 2019)

Just a quick update on Jax, I had a girl contact me who met all the criteria and her references were good. She came out and worked him in my roundpen (after signing a release of liability) and he pinned his ears and charged at her once. Her boyfriend on the outside kept saying his eye was unkind and that he looked like he was waiting for the perfect moment to strike. It took her an hour to get him in the trailer. She said she would send me updates, but she never has, but I look at her Facebook every now and then and she's still posting photos of him. So I hope he's doing better.


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