# Liver Chestnut. But is that Pangare...or?



## Equinista (Jul 7, 2014)

This is my new horse, Pharaoh. 4 year old grade QH, gelded in April and bred by previous owner, has 3 foals on the ground and 3 more on the way...all 3 foals are pinto colored...but i have no info on the dams/if they are paints/pintos.

Anyways...it is VERY hard to capture a photo of the lighter coloring near his girth/behind elbow and near his flanks and also same lighter coloring on lower legs. Is this Pangare? Or something else?

I can also make out very very faint dapples...

Please tell me what you guys see/think.

Just very curious lol.


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## Equinista (Jul 7, 2014)

Here is a photo of one of his foals.


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## Judah (Oct 22, 2016)

I can't say but he certainly is gorgeous


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## Equinista (Jul 7, 2014)

Thank you


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

That looks like just typical chestnut coloring, they're generally lighter on the flanks and behind the elbows. They are ALWAS lighter on the lower legs, some higher some lower. The muzzle, eyes, and belly would be significantly lighter with the pangare gene. Think typical Haflinger.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

Looks like Chestnut to me too- I agree, the legs usually have some lighter spots.


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

I don't see any pangare and suspect that some of the color variation in his chestnut coat is due to bleaching. Our dark liver chestnut mare fades during the summer in the same areas where your horse is lighter.


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## Equinista (Jul 7, 2014)

Thank you, all.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I disagree, there are different shades of pangare, BUT he doesn't QUITE have the look to me, and his muzzle looks very dark (panagre will effect the muzzle too) so I agree that you are _probably_ seeing bleaching on top of him having a unique color.


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## Equinista (Jul 7, 2014)

Thank you. He was out most of the time previously but me and the barn owner are going to stall in day and out at night and see what will become of his coat then.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

The horse in my avatar was a liver chestnut. His forearm area did bleach to a light blonde every summer.

The rest of his coat was uniform in color all year, until he developed metabolic issues in his early 20's.

Your horse has some unique coloring and is very pretty. I'd bet money he will change color a few more times but will stay in the chestnut hue. If he is outside all the time, the sun can play a big part in his color. He is probably a horse that will always lighten up during the summer

I can't believe he threw a paint colt, lol. Theres Paint somewhere in his or the dam's gene pool


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

walkinthewalk said:


> The horse in my avatar was a liver chestnut. His forearm area did bleach to a light blonde every summer.
> 
> The rest of his coat was uniform in color all year, until he developed metabolic issues in his early 20's.
> 
> ...


The dam is grey so could definitely be hiding pinto....wonder about the others though!

But yes the horse pictured is 100000% chestnut regardless of other genes/shades that may or may not be at play.

I had a liver chestnut that was a true liver and he did NOT change color, but he was solid liver tip of his nose to the tip of his tail year round, he did not have the lighter legs or ANY sort of shading whatsoever. Just depends on the horse, just like my seal brown is practically black but I know one that will fade from that color to lighter then your new horse. He's a pretty color and it's unique. I agree that he will probably always change regardless.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

one of Smilie's full sisters, was a liver chestnut, and one a flaxen, and two were chestnut, like her
The liver chestnut did not change color, due to sun or time of year
Smilie has one darker patch of chestnut on her one flank
Agree that the dam of that pinto foal, who is grey, could very well have had a regular Pinto coat pattern at birth. Grey wreaks Paint and Appaloosa markings!


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

As far as the tobiano pinto foal is concerned, the grey dam is most likely the one who threw the tobiano. The stallion shows no white to indicate that he is even a minimally marked tobiano and the solid (no white but carries tobiano) carriers are extremely rare when it comes to tobiano. Also, with how dark that foal is, it is also very likely going to start greying out like the dam and in time will no longer appear pinto unless soaked to the bone to show where the pink skin under the pinto markings were once visible to the eye. The dam appears to have pink skin/white markings that disappear into her very advanced stage of grey.


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## Equinista (Jul 7, 2014)

Thank you for all the input everyone. I think i mentioned in my first post he has 3 foals on the ground, bred to 3 different mares, all are colored. The other 2 mares are solid, but i do not know their breed. The other 3 of his foals that are on the way are bred to solid horses, one of which is a shetland [shetland/cross?] pony (lol)...so i hope to be able to find out from previous owner their colors (the person who has all 6 mares he bred to is not the previous owner, but the owner vefore her, and he is an older man who she has minimal contact with but he has promised her photos of the foals)

Here are the 3 mares currently infoal (bred in March) to him...would be VERY interesting if they come out colored...

Pharaoh is perfect regardless. I am very fortunate to be able to have him, and was only possible because my friend, and barn owner, has given him to me...and I couldn't be happier. I love him. <3


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Equinista said:


> Thank you for all the input everyone. I think i mentioned in my first post he has 3 foals on the ground, bred to 3 different mares, all are colored. The other 2 mares are solid, but i do not know their breed. The other 3 of his foals that are on the way are bred to solid horses, one of which is a shetland [shetland/cross?] pony (lol)...so i hope to be able to find out from previous owner their colors (the person who has all 6 mares he bred to is not the previous owner, but the owner vefore her, and he is an older man who she has minimal contact with but he has promised her photos of the foals)
> 
> Here are the 3 mares currently infoal (bred in March) to him...would be VERY interesting if they come out colored...
> 
> Pharaoh is perfect regardless. I am very fortunate to be able to have him, and was only possible because my friend, and barn owner, has given him to me...and I couldn't be happier. I love him. <3


Depends on the pinto pattern of the foals. The overo patterns (overo is outdated- it means any pinto pattern other than tobiano which would be the various mutations of splash, sabino and frame) frequently hide on solid horses (even solid horses who don't have a single white marking), many overo carriers have minimal white markings (facial white, coronet bands, socks, stockings, etc) but not enough white expression to be considered pinto. The stallion could be hiding overo pattern/s that are expressing loudly enough to be pinto marked.

However, when it comes to the tobiano pattern, you have a better chance of getting struck by lightning in a car than to get a tobiano carrier that doesn't show at least some distinguished tobiano pattern characteristics (stockings to the knees and usually at least a small patch of white across the withers/neck/back area). This is why the homozygous tobianos guarantee a pinto foal, because it is almost impossible to get a foal that has tobiano without having enough white to be considered pinto, much less not have at least a tall stocking on a leg. That is why the tobiano patterned foal most likely got it from the dam, who is in all probability a tobiano pinto that went grey. Like the foal is likely to do as well, start off life very flashy with a very loud tobiano pattern that over the next 10-15 years will eventually look like a solid grey like the dam but also have the genetic capability to pass that tobiano pattern on to the next generation. 

Find out if those other "solid" mares are actually grey but may have lost the visual appearance of being pinto because they greyed out. If they are greys who were at one point pinto colored, they aren't exactly "solid" just that their pinto markings are covered up. Also, if those solid mares have white markings of any kind, that means that the mare was capable of producing a pinto foal no matter who the sire was. All white markings are produced by the same genes that create pinto markings, the only difference is the level of expression.


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## Equinista (Jul 7, 2014)

I am a bit confused. Do you mean if a horse has ANY white they could/there's a possibility to produce pinto/tobiano? Sorry just super confused. I am not quite the best at understanding genetics. This is Pharaoh's face, the star and snip are his only white.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

ALL white is from a pinto pattern... while I believe such minimal markings as Pharoah has aren't completely understood yet (I believe they were theorized to form in the womb).

What was being discussed was that SOME pinto patterns (NOT usually tobiano) can "hide" so that the horse has the gene but you can't see any white, then bam the foal has white. OR in some situations like lethal white/frame, it has been proven to sometimes hide (horses have been 100% solid and tested for the gene) then you have a foal you need to euthanize, which is why you should always test.

But tobiano isn't known for hiding the way frame does, that's why the theory is it's coming from the dams and not Pharoah.

So what you're saying is right but it's more the expression of the color (is the whole horse white? or just a tell tale spot? or for some genes- even solid?) that is the sneaky thing. If the white marking is NOT caused by say tobiano and the horse does not have tobiano then they can't pass it on. It's just odd a solid horse has a bunch of pinto foals and if the dams are NOT carrying the gene then Pharoah must have some hidden pinto pattern that just isn't showing (very unlikely- the dams being pinto makes much more sense)


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## Equinista (Jul 7, 2014)

Thank you, i think i understand a bit better now. 

Pharaoh has a very unfortunate past. The guy who bred him "borrowed" him from someone who brought him to the breeder guys property and left him there for the breedings. When the guy was done with breeding him, he called the owner to pick him but but they refused and never came back for him. For a few weeks Pharaoh was tied out by his LEG to a tree [the guy didn't want him to get back in with his mares...such a horrible story.  ] and then they gave the horse to a woman who did take good care of him, gelded him in April, started riding him. How I got him was my barn owner had paid $1500 for a TB mare from the lady who now had Pharaoh bout 6 months prior but this mare was not working out with my barn owner and she had to give the lady first option to buy back...but the lady didnt have $1500 so she offered to trade her Pharaoh for the mare and my barn owner agreed. I fell in love with Pharaoh and my barn owner is an awesome person and has given him to me (on a no sell contract) Long story short lol...we are told he is QH but without papers who really knows...he could even be a breeding stock/solid paint or paint & QH. Im just saying, we really have no idea what he might truly be.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Equinista said:


> I am a bit confused. Do you mean if a horse has ANY white they could/there's a possibility to produce pinto/tobiano? Sorry just super confused. I am not quite the best at understanding genetics. This is Pharaoh's face, the star and snip are his only white.


The same genetics that created his star and snip can also create higher expressions of white. Facial white is created by one of the overo genes, there are several mutations of sabino and splash that are the usual culprits of facial white. Frame can also create facial white but is more frequently hidden, not expressed or unnoticed as the horse could also have facial white that is caused mostly by another of the overo genes. If he has foals that are overo pinto patterned, he could have been a source of that patterning. 

But if his other foals have tobiano patterns like the foal you posted, it is a 0.001% chance that he passed on a tobiano gene because it is highly doubtful that he carries tobiano. I have seen pictures of one or two tobiano carriers that didn't have minimal tobiano pattern, and those horses were shared as extremely rare examples of tobianos that had no tobiano expression. Tobiano loves the express, it is rare is get only a high stocking and only a small patch of white across the neck, withers, back or rump. This is why it is so popular to breed for tobiano patterns to get pintos because tobiano is loud enough for pinto coloring 99% of the time, the others tend to have multiple tall stockings but not exceed the knee and an incredibly small chance of no white (like I had said before, your car struck by lightning is more likely). When it comes to the overo patterns, it is extremely unpredictable as to your chances for a pinto pattern even when breeding loudly expressed pintos. 

Another possibility to explain tobiano patterned foals with solid mares would be that Pharoh is not the sire. If a colt who is 10 months or older were able to get in with the mares, he could very well be the actual sire. Or there could have been a fence jumper that came and covered the mares (other forum members have had pregnant mares due to a stallion jumping the fence). One of these is highly likely if a foal's color is not genetically possible (like sire and dam being chestnut and a foal is palomino... Or sire and dam being chestnut and the foal is black or bay... With outcomes like that you know instantly that a chestnut sire could not produce that foal color with a chestnut mare). I say this because a few years ago, a new forum member appeared trying to show off their new foal and how surprised they were at the color. The foal was a bay, the mother was a chestnut but they adamantly claimed that the sire was a palomino. Even though it was genetically impossible to get a bay foal out a chestnut mare crossed to a palomino, they didn't want to believe that their foal wasn't sired by the palomino (chestnut crossed with palomino is a 50% chance of a palomino foal and a 50% chance of a chestnut foal). Another forum member had a surprise buckskin foal out of one of his older retired broodmares (didn't even know she was bred), and he started trying to find the stallion responsible for producing a cream dilution foal out of his bay mare (none of his stallions carried cream to make buckskin). He found a neighbor down the road a few miles that had a homozgous cream stallion. After talking with them, he learned that his neighbor's stallion had indeed escaped a year before and that the neighbor had found their stallion in the mare's pasture but hadn't told him (the mare owner) about it. Things do happen and sometimes the explanation is not what we would have expected.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Arabians are a great example.... Arabians do not carry the traditional pinto genes and the few times a "pinto Arab" has come up it's been proven to be faked in some way... They just flat out don't carry those genes, it's such a pure breed there's no faking it.









^Khemosabi, a very influential sire and purebred Arab. A beautiful but not uncommon color that one wouldn't think about aside from one or two tell tale characteristics of the white (like the white on his lower lip).









^Rhocky Rhoad, Khemosabi's grandson and also a purebred Arab....who is also PtHA registered.

There are even more extreme sabino's (up to pure white, or creating a roan looking horse) but I don't know any good Arab examples.

Sabino is a gene that is USUALLY minimally expressed esp in Arabs.. it is a pinto gene but on it's own very rarely creates anything other then regular markings or an odd spot here and there.

So that's a good example of having "solid" horses then "bam pinto".

Tobiano is that common "50/50 white" pinto pattern and it creates those big round spots, crosses the back, and creates white legs. The more white the better. It's very distinctive, so we can easily see that the foal carries it even without testing.

BUT tobiano does NOT work like sabino as SunnyDraco explained. Tobiano does NOT hide and is usually "more then less" as far as expression. So one would assume that the foal has one parent that is OBVIOUSLY pinto and showing the tobiano gene, Pharoah obviously is not that parent so one would the assume the dams must have tobiano and are obviously pinto. I think it would be more likely it was a different father then Pharoah is hiding tobiano as it really is that uncommon.

Hope that makes more sense as far as obvious and not so obvious patterns !


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