# Stubborn Lesson Mare Won't Trot Under Saddle



## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

Hey everyone,

I have some anxiety that I need to get off my chest.

My new mare was very well behaved when I bought her: walk, trot, canter under saddle - more go than woah, just what I wanted. As an Arabian cross, she had the energy and could go all day.

I have not ridden her extensively since I bought her in July... Probably only a handful of times. The first few rides were great and she worked hard for me. But lately it has been getting progressively worse. She is impossible to get going. She absolutely will not trot.

Obviously, I knew that as her new owner she was trying me on for size. Immediately after this behavior started, I got the crop. She understood that for about one ride, then decided she didn't need to listen to that either.

The tack is not an issue. I haven't had her western saddle fitted yet, but I use an English saddle that has been fitted to her. I have had a vet out to check her back. She is sound, no lameness issues.

It isn't health related, this is her being a brat. She swishes her tail and pins ears momentarily when I ask her, basically telling me 'No, I don't want to do that'.

I am doing what I can to fix this issue. I can't really give an update because I haven't ridden her in about a month - once this all started I got on the ground and said "Prepare yourself mare, for long lunging sessions of gait transitions!".

And that's what I have been doing. Walk to trot, trot to walk, trot to canter, etc. I continue to lunge her until she listens immediately upon request. She has been doing well and it's getting better. A little lazy in the beginning, but once we get about 10 minutes in she starts listening.

Understand that this mare has an extensive history of showing: she has done hunter flat and western pleasure, she is a working horse. She is just being lazy and stubborn but it seems like my methods of escalation to fix the issue, she just ignores.

We go into our first lesson on Saturday and I am incredibly nervous about her being 'that horse' in the lesson group. The one that is always having issues, the one that always isn't listening to the rider.

It seems to me like after having a few years off of showing, she became a pleasure horse for her previous owner and is not wanting to go back to work. This seems valid since she was fine when I got her two months ago, and got progressively more lazy. She balks at regular work.

I am going to continue the hard groundwork between lessons, but does anyone have any tips for me when I ride? This mare tends to fluctuate between the "stubborn" and "interested" archtypes of horse personalities.

I really appreciate it.

Thanks!


----------



## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

I should also mention that once she gets going, there aren't any issues. She would trot or canter until she fell over dead if I asked her, honestly.

It's GETTING her going that's the problem.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think you might know what you need to do but are hesitant to do it; and that's have the proverbial, "come to Jesus meeting" with her.

she knows now that your use of the crop is all bluster. she does not connect the lunging work with your having asked and not received an upward transition to trot.
you will have to insist on it, and be ready and able to ride her through any sort of tantrum she might throw.

sometimes you can get a horse to respond more favorably to a "go" message (if she is ignoring a leg cue) by taking the excess loop of rein and doing a rapid back and forth smack on her withers. some horses will be more willing to wake up and listen from this than from a whip back on their haunches area.

but whatever it is, you have to be mentally committed to "We ARE going now!". Look up, fix your eye on a point on the other side of the arena, and ask with your leg, ask hard with you leg (no squeezing, use a "flutter or bang " of your ankle against her side), and then apply either the crop or the rein smack and mean it!

keep in mind always, "go", even when you are hitting her. some folks get distracted by thinking "this will fix you." or some other focus on the punishment aspect of this. but keep in mind the go aspect of the action. keep looking toward that point and have your physical and mental energy pushing out toward it.


----------



## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

I actually don't use the crop on her hindquarters, I use it on her shoulder. So I feel this would have the same effect as reins. Although I may put on strip reins for a while and give this a try!

Also, I find that now that you have mentioned this, I don't look where I'm going when this comes up... So I'll give that a try, just focus instead of getting frustrated.

Thanks! I am TRYING to have that meeting with her that you mentioned. I'm not hesitant, just not sure how to get there. It seems like whips and legs and spurs don't work, so I'm kind of at a loss.


----------



## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

Even the sweetest mares can fool you into thinking that they see you as the leader; and then they ever so slowly take back control without your knowledge (unless you constantly watch for it and address it).

Watch for little things. When you are walking her does she try to walk a little bit ahead of you? Even if it doesn't bother you, it's her way of disrespecting you. I make mine back up a few steps when she tries to get ahead. If I don't address these seemingly harmless little things, then she thinks she's in charge as evidenced by resistance under saddle.


----------



## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

Since you're sure it's not pain, tack fit, health,,,then she doesnt see you as her leader when your in the saddle and/or you havent yet asked in a way that motivates her to comply. That doenst necessarily mean you need to get harsher with the crop,etc. Just need to motivate her, and be ready to release and reward her when she takes just a stride or two of trot,,,at first,,then build from there. Like already mentioned, some horses respond nicely to the reins used side to side in front of the saddle, and it doesnt have to be hard or hurt her either. 
Also agree strongly with keeping your focus OUT and FORWARD--make sure your body language or energy is not in someway contradicting with your cue for upward transition to the trot. 
Another thing to maybe try, if you're not opposed to treats. She sounds to me like the kind of horse who would love to earn a treat. Can you place a barrel where you plan to ride to and let her 'find' a treat on it when she gets to it. Maybe at the walk the first time or two until she learns there is a treat on it,,then only if she trots to it. Pretty soon she will be trotting eagerly to it and you can get more particular about what she has to do to earn it. ie trot the entire distance,,,,make the distance further,,,etc. It would be easier with a helper to re-load the treat on the barrel, but it's manageable from the saddle as long as you either dismount to re-load , or , if able, place/toss a treat as your'e walking away and dont let her turn back and get it untill you go back to starting point and then trot to it.Soon she will be in the habit of giving you trot when asked and you can phase out the treats.
I'm assuming you're riding mostly in an arena. Perhaps going round and round the arena seems yucky to her, so she'd just as soon do it at a walk. Have you tried stopping in the corner(s) for a brief pause. Then next time, go to the 2nd corner before a stop. mix it up and keep things interesting,,she sounds like she is the kind of horse that needs her mind engaged to become interested. Or do some patterns where you come thru the middle , then sometimes turn right, sometimes left..be consistent so that it is a pattern.
I have no idea if your bridle has a mecate, or if your reins are long, etc., but I've used my mecate to slap MY back (not hard--just create commotion and make noise) that often works, but if it doesnt after just a slap or two, let it out long enough to tag her rump-again not hard, it doesnt have to hurt--just annoying and noisy enough to cause her to do whatever you're asking to make it stop. 
Hope something in there will be helpful to you.
Fay


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

WillowNightwind said:


> I actually don't use the crop on her hindquarters, I use it on her shoulder. So I feel this would have the same effect as reins. Although I may put on strip reins for a while and give this a try!
> 
> Also, I find that now that you have mentioned this, I don't look where I'm going when this comes up... So I'll give that a try, just focus instead of getting frustrated.
> 
> Thanks! I am TRYING to have that meeting with her that you mentioned. I'm not hesitant, just not sure how to get there. It seems like whips and legs and spurs don't work, so I'm kind of at a loss.



spurs would not be a preferred method. they should not be used to get a horse that is sulling up to go forward.

a horse I am now riding is very resentful of very much leg contact. but, with the rider really getting their "life up" in their own body, and not squeezing him, he will move forward usually from a soft leg, and if needed, reinforcement on his shoulder. But, it's easy to get sucked into "nagging". ask me how I know.

So, I suggest you get firm, clear and don't waste too much time in the middle ground with her.

if she's been a show horse and has had a ton of arena work done on her, she might be really fed up with that. going out on trails or doing things that will mix it up for her will help a lot. 

but, don't let her get too ingrained with this idea that she can pin her ears and refuse to go.


----------



## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

As much as I agree with the idea of going out and doing other things besides arena work, unfortunately this is evading the issue. I use this horse in lessons, which are in an arena. And of course, I need her behaved during this time. I have no issue taking her out on trails once in a while, but it's not acceptable for her to start up the issues again next time she gets in the arena.

I definitely agree with the respect aspect: I have not had this horse long and she, as I mentioned in the OP, trying me on for size. I feel as though I do my best to correct anything she throws at me and I can say proudly that I don't take crap from her. But this just baffles me because she doesn't respond to anything, it seems.


----------



## Gossalyn (Sep 12, 2013)

not sure how advanced you are - it might be a good idea to get a trainer to ride her... maybe even you being there and having the trainer explaining to you what they are doing. even if you can't afford it on a regular basis, you could learn a lot from the session. Also if your anything like me, really getting after a horse (where they may give you the middle finger) makes me a little anxious. A trainer will get after her with zero fear and 100% intent.


----------



## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

Thanks for you input everyone, I appreciate it.

One thing I would like to clarify: it's not that I'm doing nothing or not getting after her. Believe me, Gossalyn, I am not afraid to get after my horses and I do so all the time. I don't tolerate bad behavior, ever.

What I am trying to say, is that when I DO get after her to get her to trot under saddle, she seems not to care no matter what I do. This is more the issue. If there is a better way I should be "getting after her" that's what I am looking for, since the usual "ask, tell, demand" is not working.


----------



## Rebelwithacause (Aug 7, 2013)

I am going to echo a PP on looking up and forward. I ride a lesson mare that likes to pull this stunt occasionally, and one thing my trainer always, always reminds me it to look up. By looking down at them you're "engaging" in the disagreement you're having and giving them the option to "talk back" like a teenager. The physical act of looking up, cue-ing and signaling the go will do wonders. 
Also, my lesson mare has a tendency to slow down at the same spot in the arena when we are cantering. Switching directions can really help establish a leader role between you and horsey. If she starts to get sassy, change the direction on her... when she gets sassy again, change it again. She'll get tired of going in circles and start listening and obeying your commands to her.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

WillowNightwind said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> We go into our first lesson on Saturday and I am incredibly nervous about her being 'that horse' in the lesson group. The one that is always having issues, the one that always isn't listening to the rider.



This is the bit that has me confused, you are going into lessons with an issue, you should not go in nervous, but excited. Here you are with an issue, and your trainer is going to be there on the spot ready willing and able to give you on the spot advice, that is kind of what going for lessons is all about. If you and her were perfect you wouldn't need a trainer. 

You don't know that you are always going to be having issues, in fact you need to think the opposite way, with some help we are going to be the most improved pair in the class.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

there are some horses that do not do better with a forceful approach. it's true.

one thing to try is to circle her whenever she does not want to trot. I mean a tight circle, such that you actually get a step under with the inside hind. a disengagement of the hind. then , without rushing her, offer her a forward, and then offer her a faster forward. she may find that it's easier to just go forward than to circle first, THEN go forward.


----------



## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

Just an update:

I went out to ride my mare tonight with all of these suggestions in mind. Honestly, what helped the most was looking where I wanted to go. It caused me to focus on what I was doing and NOT the horse. When she resisted, I simply kept looking ahead and believe it or not, this alone solved everything -- because it was like suddenly, my body knew what to do. Weird!

When she didn't trot, I looked ahead and unexpectedly my legs came back further behind the girth to 'urge' her forward. I did not really think to do this, my body just did it. Like it was telling me 'well if you want to go forward you gotta push this horse into it'. All I did was squeeze in this position and off she went.

When we were moving through transitions and she was being a tad more difficult, all it took was some familiar things from our recent lunging sessions to egg her on: I would squeeze and click my tongue until she went.

I also took some advice from tinylily too: there was only one time she was being especially resistent, and I grabbed my reins (I put one some longer reins for this today) and did a quick hand over hand on her withers and this got her attention focused back on me.

I think this is proof that sometimes when we get frustrated with our horses, we overthink things too much. We have to trust ourselves and stay calm and relaxed and focused on the JOB and not the horse and remember our previous training to help us out.

A very valuable lesson learned today.

Thank you everyone for the suggestions, it made a world of difference. We had a wonderful ride!


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

You obviously aren't "getting after her" properly then. You shouldn't have to do it all the time.

I do think a trainer would be good but it sounds like you're getting lessons.

Some good points have been made.

I want to add- don't tense. It's really hard when you're pushing the horse to go but sometimes your body becomes so tense from pushing you clamp up and don't let the horse go. Yes ask her to go, squeeze, kick, etc. But try to keep your body overall relaxed and not clamped down.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

that's wonderful. just wonderful.

oh, and it's "Tiny LINY, not LILY" 
why do I always get that? like some kind of Chinese concubine!


----------



## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> that's wonderful. just wonderful.
> 
> oh, and it's "Tiny LINY, not LILY"
> why do I always get that? like some kind of Chinese concubine!


I'm sorry, I read it properly I just didn't type it properly, haha! You made me lol though.


@Yogiwick
It's absolutely necessary to get after them all the time if it has become a habit that they have learned they can get away with. With my previous mare, it took me several sessions before she quit stopping in one spot in the pen. She did end up breaking this habit after about a month. I certainly don't think this is unusual, it takes time and consistency to get horses broken of these habits.

As per my latest post, it has already gotten much better. My consistency with getting after her worked - I was just feeling a little flustered and wanted some additional advice. My usual methods were not working, and different horses respond to different approaches.

I estimate another month of this consistent riding and she will be golden. I start lessons with her tomorrow so this will help big time!

@Golden Horse
I would love to feel like this, but I am taking GROUP lessons and not private lessons. In a private setting it wouldn't be a big deal, but when there are 6 riders in an arena and I am holding people up/getting in peoples' way it becomes a stress all on its own... Hope that makes more sense... ):


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> that's wonderful. just wonderful.
> 
> oh, and it's "Tiny LINY, not LILY"
> why do I always get that? like some kind of Chinese concubine!


I did that too 

I was going to add with a stubborn horse that knows exactly what you want and is ignoring you I will go "ask/make" instead of "ask/tell/make".

You just need forward and I think you found it! A lot of it is confidence and expecting her to listen. Congrats on your great ride, keep it up!

I think you misread my post, but I had missed a bunch of posts before posting it apparently :/.

She may also be more inclined to do this in the ring. Try to keep the forward.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

WillowNightwind said:


> @Golden Horse
> I would love to feel like this, but I am taking GROUP lessons and not private lessons. In a private setting it wouldn't be a big deal, but when there are 6 riders in an arena and I am holding people up/getting in peoples' way it becomes a stress all on its own... Hope that makes more sense... ):


Well yes, and no! 

I take group lessons as well as private, and I guess I must be lucky with my group because we all accept that some days one person has more attention than the rest of us because they are working on an issue. 

I get what you are saying, and I do understand, but again the trainer is there to help everyone with their problems, if you didn't have any improvements to make you wouldn't be taking lessons. Now you have seen the difference that a few small changes can make, if your trainer can't make a few simple suggestions that gives you as much improvement as some random internet people, then maybe it's time for a new trainer:wink:

Anyway, the important thing is that things are improving, that is great!


----------



## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

WillowNightwind said:


> Thank you everyone for the suggestions, it made a world of difference. We had a wonderful ride!


Yay !!


----------



## Gossalyn (Sep 12, 2013)

The "eye" stuff (aka looking) kills me because it works so well, but honestly it really feel it's like magic!

I was drifting after jumps instead of going straight and my trainers like, "all you have to do.. is look ahead and look straight". and of course, as the student i'm like 'that totally isn't going to work, aren't i kind of doing that now? but ok i'll try & focus on that..."

and then it works!! I thought I was looking straight (maybe?) before, but when i focused on a spot straight ahead and made sure not to deviate my focus.. Sissy went straight to where I was looking! I still think of it as magic (I know it's not ) but I'm a believer now in the eyes... I just have to remember to always been looking and keeping my head up.


----------



## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

Gossalyn said:


> The "eye" stuff (aka looking) kills me because it works so well, but honestly it really feel it's like magic!
> 
> I was drifting after jumps instead of going straight and my trainers like, "all you have to do.. is look ahead and look straight". and of course, as the student i'm like 'that totally isn't going to work, aren't i kind of doing that now? but ok i'll try & focus on that..."
> 
> and then it works!! I thought I was looking straight (maybe?) before, but when i focused on a spot straight ahead and made sure not to deviate my focus.. Sissy went straight to where I was looking! I still think of it as magic (I know it's not ) but I'm a believer now in the eyes... I just have to remember to always been looking and keeping my head up.


It's so hard sometimes! I seem to get easily distracted by my horse. "Is her neck bending properly? Is she giving to the bit? Why is her head that high? Am I on the right diagonal/lead?" Somewhere along the way I forget all the other things I need to pay attention to and then the moment I remember the ride goes smoother.

On that note, just a bit of an update:

I have been working Bling a minimum of twice a week (my sister hasn't started full time lessons yet) and I must say things have been really, really well. In the end, I think this all started from a combination of a few things:

1. *I think I used a lot more leg than she was used to and she appears to be pretty sensitive.* I can't recall ever having this issue with any other horse, so never noticed it before, but the light bulb just came on one day when I noticed her reaction to my leg.

Now I ride with my leg almost completely off of her. Still enough that I can feel her, but not enough to irritate her... Because let me tell you, she gets mad as all heck if your legs are bouncing around everywhere (I have a horrible sitting trot) or they are touching her more often than she thinks is necessary. I just turn my toes more into her shoulder - not tipped in, just more straight. I was always told to keep my toes pointed 45 degrees out by a previous instructor but that results in my riding more off the back of my calf and she doesn't like that.

2. *She didn't like the idea of having to work regularly again.* For a while, she was fussy and unresponsive under saddle and on the ground. She just wasn't used to going back to work after having three years off, but she came around eventually.

I remember when I first started working with her she would not go forward on the lunge without some serious encouragement and that lead to issues in the saddle, too. Now I can lunge her and ask her to trot or canter using voice commands alone and she responds quietly. She really stretches down in her trot now and we worked on her walk to canter transitions (she hasn't done them in so long) and she is getting pretty good now that she remembers her training. Still needs some work going left because she breaks into a short trot before the canter comes, but the right is flawless.

In fact, all of her transitions are pretty flawless now! I am working on getting her to stop straight, because she always kind of moves her hindquarters a bit when I ask her to stop but it's coming along.

Gaiting up isn't a problem for us at all anymore... In fact, sometimes getting her to SLOW DOWN is the bigger issue! :lol: Now THAT'S the wonderful, high-energy mare I remember!


----------



## EquiiAlex (Sep 28, 2013)

Does she lunge/round pen for you on the ground in a trot?


----------

