# false frame vs. true frame (please share pictures!)



## Jubilee Rose

Hi guys,

I've been really trying to be able to tell by looking at pictures of horses, whether or not they are being ridden "correctly." As in with true impulsion and truly "on the bit" through working their back end. Could someone post some pictures of a horse on the bit, versus in a "false frame"? Thanks so much!

http://www.ironbridgefarm.com/horses36.jpg
^Here is one I think where the horse has a "false head frame" but is NOT tracking up underneath himself. I know its a western saddle but the principle is still the same.

http://www.topclassdressage.com/display/images/000242_sridharlarge.jpg
^ Here is one where I think the horse is working underneath himself in a true frame.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. And share any other examples you may have. Thanks guys!


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## free_sprtd

this is a cool topic! I can totally see the difference


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## MIEventer

Ooooh boy...I sure do have pictures of me riding in a false frame.

When taking lessons, under an undeducated coach - you learn to ride uneducatedly. 

Uneducated, teaching the uneducated. So when I was riding, my coach was always having me fidget with my horses face. Which is what I was doing...beacuse it was what I was being taught.

Here is a picture of very incorrect riding. Although I have a good elbow angle, and my hands are being carried as they should be, they are stiff, holding the face, no softness, no give, no take. I am not giving of the inside rein either - and the result is a horse stiff and on the muscle.

My contact is not allowing forward movement. Horse not being able to move under himself, due to be held and contracted up front. I am not allowing him to open up and move forward. Everything is being compacted in.

Too heavy of a seat - roached lower back and upper body behind the verticle.

Horse is stiff in the jaw, neck is stiff and tense. Notice back is dropped. Hind end carried high, not tracking up.

Horse is heavy on forehand.











I am blessed to have found a very educated coach, who is also very functional where teaching is involved. He spends allot of time with me, working on my issues and showing me how to fix them. 

He has taught me to leave my horses face alone, softening my arms and to be giving of my hands. Riding back to front, creating energy, rhythm and forward movement.

My Coach went Prix Saint George Dressage in his hayday.

Now this picture isn't perfect - we arent there yet, but we are much better than where we were. We still have our issues, and I have allot of work to do, but we are much better now than where we were under our last coach.

Here, his back is more lifted and his hind end is not as high. He is coming under himself better and more rounded. He is softer in the jaw and is searching for contact. He isn't under himself quite yet, but getting there. He isn't quite tracking up, but we are getting there.

You can see in the picture where I am supporting him through the outside rein, where the inside I dropped. He is carrying himself - but he isn't where he should be as of yet.

*A good test to see if your horse is carrying themselves, is dropping the inside rein. While remaining supportive thorugh the outside rein* 

I am not longer worried about where his head is, I am more worried about where his back end and back is. Slowly but surely. I do need to pick him up more through proper hand carraige, via outside rein.






























We scored very high in our tests at that Rated Dressage Show. Out of 5 other competators in 4 our classes, we placed 1'st and won Grand Champion.


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## Jubilee Rose

Wow, MIEventer, that is amazing. I really really see the difference. Your horse is looking so much better!! He is beautiful! His whole carriage is different. I can tell with his legs as well ... how he's tracking up underneath, the forehand isn't as far down and his front legs are stretched out instead of cramped. Great work!

Here is a pic of Jubilee (from last Spring). In this pic I wasn't really aware of making her work underneath herself but can you see a *tiny bit* of her *starting* to get those hind muscles moving. I know she's got farther to go. And we've come farther since this pic. What do you think?










(Please ignore my saddle placement. I have gotten a new saddle since this picture).


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## CJ82Sky

Good frame (ignore my position my reins slipped!)










Diff horse (of mine) with a diff rider ages ago - false frame








Same horse, diff rider, learning to carry herself, slightly behind bit, but much better and lighter on the fore than above (notice relaxed soft rein contact)









My dressage horse coming off a back injury - stretching, not in a frame, but working on self-carriage









My Clyde/TB eventer - he's a lovely mover so can be deceiving!
False frame








True frame









And my jumper - false frame fighting me in the snow....









True frame warming up for a jumper show


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## CJ82Sky

You can even see the diff it makes OF....
Jumping hollow from a false frame/on the fore









Jumping round from the hind


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## MIEventer

Very pretty girl with a gentle soul. She is trying most definately. I want to point something out though if I may....

See how she has given into your hands? You must release with your inside rein the moment she does that. If you do not give with your inside rein....then you aren't letting her know she did something right. You aren't saying "Yes, that is what I want"

Also, she is popping that outside shoulder. Your outside rein, must keep that shoulder under herself. Your turning aids are also through your outside rein, not inside. 

Pick up your hands * I have that issue as well* to aid her up and into you.

Remember, your position in the saddle and your aids, reflect into your horse.

Also - I am concerned about her hoof angles....and I will tell you why. She has long toes, no heel. More than likely, smooshed frogs as well.

All the pressure is being dispursed into her toes - which will impede her movement.

My TB just went through this. No matter how hard I tried to get him to move forward and track up - he wouldn't. Because he had too long of toes, no heels, compressed frogs. No blood flow. All that pressure was being put into his toes. He wouldn't trust his heels and every step he took hurt. 

It took a highly quallified farrier to come out and fix it all. I've been off of his back for 6 months to correct this............the errors this other "farrier" did to him. 

I am not a Farrier - not at all. But the angles of your mares hooves, look like how mine were. I had no idea...until everything was pointed out to me.


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## CJ82Sky

(as always it seems lol) i agree with what she ^ said!


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## MIEventer

I think you and I are long lost sisters or something! LOL.

When can I move in with you? *flutters eye lashes*

OH! And when were you saying you were giving me your Clyde X TB? *flutters eye lashes more*


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## Spyder

If the frame is correct you will see the interplay of muscles in the neck. While there is much more than just that it is the result of the relaxation of the entire horse so it is the entire horse (not just the front end) that needs to be looked at.

This takes me to the well written article by Ballou


Balance vs. Motion in Dressage
by Jec A. Ballou

The development of dressage horses falls more or less into two camps, with a lively debate dividing them over the proper foundation and training progression.

For example, should a horse in the early work achieve precise and stable longitudinal balance prior to developing the motion of his gaits? Or, should the horse learn first to push himself forward with loose and rhythmic strides before knowing how to balance and carry himself at all times?

The two prominent sides of this training argument are commonly seen as a German method versus a French or classical Iberian method. It is not as simple as that, though. Historical dressage traditions have melted together so much in our country that it is impossible to say any technique is purely German, French, or otherwise. There certainly are at least two prevalent philosophies regarding the dressage training scale, but it is fair to only loosely ascribe national ties to them. Yet, it is interesting to examine how the traditions may have evolved.

Modern trainers and riders-competitive or otherwise strive toward the standards upheld by the F.E.I. and classical riding academies around the globe. With one uniform set of goals, it might seem logical to have just a single path to get there. But that is not the case. Each training system has its own progression to arrive at the same place. So, the question remains: which is the best way?

Sometimes, this question is tackled in forums about classical dressage versus competitive dressage. The former prides itself on a slow, tedious training program that teaches a horse to round and carry itself in an uphill manner in early work. The latter, meanwhile, teaches pushingas opposed to carryingpower in the beginning, and a primary achievement of horizontal balance prior to uphill carriage.

The difference in methods is sometimes wrongly referred to as balance before motion vs. motion before balance. But it is incorrect to say that one school of thought favors balance while the other does not. Both are in pursuit of balance; the difference lies in how each seeks to achieve it. A historical perspective helps explain why different methods evolved.

Prior to the French Revolution, dressage was expressed in ways that emphasized extreme collection and agility. The Renaissance and Baroque eras saw riders excelling in the piaffe, passage, and airs above the ground, the preparation for which included collection and shorter strides in early training. The very forward and thrusting movements like the extended trot, on the other hand, were only seen in carriage horses working to cover great distances.

For the most part, this changed during the 19th century when dressage became less of an aristocratic pastime and moved into the cavalry schools. Now, the equitation emphasized longer, flatter strides and greater adjustability of the horses frame between varying degrees of collection. Dressage competitions grew out of this environment, and therefore, the medium and extended gaits became part of the tests while the most highly collected movements (i.e., canter in place, etc.) did not.

At the same time, larger and less compact horses like Thoroughbreds and Warmbloods replaced the previously popular Andalusian and Iberian mounts. So, the focus became building thrusting power in these taller, lankier horses with naturally horizontal balance as opposed to an accented uphill body structure. The German system could be said to have grown out of this period.

A current instruction handbook from the German National Equestrian Federation states that by acquiring looseness and by stretching through his back and lowering his neck toward the ground, the horse demonstrates that he is then ready to be pushed into contact and to develop a posture or frame.

For those who follow a program like the German training scale, it is through motion that a horse finds his balance. But it is likely that in many cases the training scale is wrongly interpreted and has led to riders being single-focused on creating long, swinging strides and a low neck carriage. This possible misinterpretation may be contributing to an even greater division between todays prevalent training systems.

Modern-day author, judge, and clinician Charles DeKunffy believes that the hysteria of driving young horses forward has led to a decrease in riders awareness of balance. He said that he sees numerous riders chasing their horses faster with no attention to how the horse carries himself in the movement.

Teaching your horse balance before riding your horse forward is so important because forward is so misunderstood now. A forward-moving horse takes weight behind and lifts up in front like an airplane taking off. The horse must be balanced back into the haunches to take the rider forward, said DeKunffy recently.

For those who follow an approach that favors developing posture and poise early on, more time will be spent in the beginning getting the horse to yield his jaw, relax his poll, and release his neck at slower paces. Through this release and suppling of the front of the horse, he will lift his forehand on his own and will carry himself free of contractionsand therefore in a collected balance from the beginning. This progression differs substantially from the German training scale.

In the 19th century, the French horseman Francois Baucher conducted a series of experiments with a horse standing on two scales that arguably became the cornerstone for this theory that balance should be emphasized before movement. He asked the horse to raise and lower his neck to various positions at the halt and then measured the amount of weight on both forehand and hindquarters at each level.

The results of this experiment led him to develop a truism: balance must be obtained with no interference with movement while, on the other hand, movement in the act of being produced must not interfere with balance. This idea certainly influenced many dressage trainers in the past few centuries, even though it can be interpreted and applied in various forms.

Tina Veder, who has trained Andalusians and Lusitanos horses for the past 20 years, employs these methods to some extent at her facility in upstate New York. She recommends that for horses built naturally uphill, riders should focus on developing collection in the beginning of training. She believes that there is no purpose in driving a horse more forward than he is able to keep his roundness. From the start, her horses learn to go in shorter, more elevated gaits than the training of most young Warmbloods in a German approach.

She said that for her horses, creating big ground-covering strides in the beginning does not have any benefit. Working on collection and yielding the body and jaw, however, puts him into the balance that he will be perfecting for the next several years on his way to High School training.

We find when you have a horse that finds it comfortable to become round by nature, if he loses his balance, he can come back to roundness. Riders learn to bring them back to balance without tension, she explained.
Laying down this concept in 1949, the French riding master General Decarpentry wrote:
By first obtaining a relaxation of the mouth by means of special exercises called flexions of the jaw and getting the horse, by shrewd progression, to move in all directions without deterioration of the relaxation, the rider will have the certainty of keeping his horse constantly and perfectly balanced. Academic Equitation
He goes on to suggest a lot of walk work, because in that gait, a rider can monitor the form and poise of his horse, making it his primary aim to stabilize and confirm the horses posture. This form is not sought for a flattering appearance. The rider maintains the proper form and poise for each individual horse at the point where he is balanced into his haunches, light to the hand, and responsive to the aids. It is the foundation and preparation for all following advanced work.

This early concentration on the horses uphill form and contact is a notable contrast to creating balance by developing active, rhythmic steps (mostly in trot) and a downward posture in the horses neck, as proposed by the German approach. A trainer could easily be confused which method to choose, with two equally successfuland very different training systems available to them.

One system appears to balance a horse in the beginning by shortening his strides slightly and yielding his jaw, while the other seems to balance a horse by sending him well forward with larger strides and doesnt concern himself with contact or the jaw until much later in the training scale.

So, how do we choose among the traditions available to us?

In the end, the debate of methods seems to come down to the type of horse in question. We must keep in mind that each training tradition grew out of a historical context where particular kinds of horses were being prepared for certain styles of riding. Different styles and horses require different approaches.

For somewhat phlegmatic Warmbloods, an early approach that confirms forward energy and a horizontal frame seems to be the right recipe. But for a horse with notably uphill conformation and naturally elevated gaits, like Iberian horses, it appears best to capitalize on their ability to sit into the haunches early on. Also, since they are generally more animated than Warmbloods, more focus can be placed on eliminating jaw and bodily contractions, rather than developing a forward, rhythmic stride. And for horses that fall between these two types, perhaps a blend of both methods is best.


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## CJ82Sky

MIEventer said:


> I think you and I are long lost sisters or something! LOL.
> 
> When can I move in with you? *flutters eye lashes*
> 
> OH! And when were you saying you were giving me your Clyde X TB? *flutters eye lashes more*


LOL I know the breeder...he's got two full siblings left for sale


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## Jubilee Rose

MIEventer said:


> Very pretty girl with a gentle soul. She is trying most definately. I want to point something out though if I may....
> 
> See how she has given into your hands? You must release with your inside rein the moment she does that. If you do not give with your inside rein....then you aren't letting her know she did something right. You aren't saying "Yes, that is what I want"
> 
> Also, she is popping that outside shoulder. Your outside rein, must keep that shoulder under herself. Your turning aids are also through your outside rein, not inside.
> 
> Pick up your hands * I have that issue as well* to aid her up and into you.
> 
> Remember, your position in the saddle and your aids, reflect into your horse.
> 
> Also - I am concerned about her hoof angles....and I will tell you why. She has long toes, no heel. More than likely, smooshed frogs as well.
> 
> All the pressure is being dispursed into her toes - which will impede her movement.
> 
> My TB just went through this. No matter how hard I tried to get him to move forward and track up - he wouldn't. Because he had too long of toes, no heels, compressed frogs. No blood flow. All that pressure was being put into his toes. He wouldn't trust his heels and every step he took hurt.
> 
> It took a highly quallified farrier to come out and fix it all. I've been off of his back for 6 months to correct this............the errors this other "farrier" did to him.
> 
> I am not a Farrier - not at all. But the angles of your mares hooves, look like how mine were. I had no idea...until everything was pointed out to me.


Thanks MIEventer. She really does try for me. I love her so much. I'm surprised you say that about her hooves, like you said, I've never thought of it at all. I don't know if you can see, but she has shoes on her front feet. Maybe she needs them on all fours?


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## MIEventer

It has nothing to do with shoes - it has to do with a farrier who is going to properly angle her feet in accordance to the length of her pasturns, her hip angles and shoulder angles.


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## ShowJumpLife

my old gelding was awesome at demonstrating this!
REALLY false frame, this was taken when I first got him and he was ridden by his old owners in draw reins every day.









And getting better.


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## Jubilee Rose

Thanks everyone for your pictures. I appreciate it!


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## Equuestriaan

Wow haha I still can't see the difference in any of the pictures! xD


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## Jubilee Rose

Equuestriaan said:


> Wow haha I still can't see the difference in any of the pictures! xD


A good thing to look for is ... are the back legs stretching out underneath the horse? Does the energy of the horse stem from the back or front? (True frame will always come from the back). Is the horse heavy on the forehand, with cramped legs? (False frame).


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## Dressage101

Jubilee Rose said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I've been really trying to be able to tell by looking at pictures of horses, whether or not they are being ridden "correctly." As in with true impulsion and truly "on the bit" through working their back end. Could someone post some pictures of a horse on the bit, versus in a "false frame"? Thanks so much!
> 
> http://www.ironbridgefarm.com/horses36.jpg
> ^Here is one I think where the horse has a "false head frame" but is NOT tracking up underneath himself. I know its a western saddle but the principle is still the same.
> 
> http://www.topclassdressage.com/display/images/000242_sridharlarge.jpg
> ^ Here is one where I think the horse is working underneath himself in a true frame.
> 
> Please correct me if I'm wrong. And share any other examples you may have. Thanks guys!


Good job! Yes the western horse is being held in his position and is moving on his forehand. Where is the dressage horse is in a more correct position moving from behind. It’s hard to tell from photos but you chose some good examples.


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## Whipple

Equuestriaan said:


> Wow haha I still can't see the difference in any of the pictures! xD


I'm with you. I am trying, but it's difficult for someone not used to looking for it. I will be sure to look more often now.


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## upsidedown

I can't tell...









True or false?

I think true, but I'm really not confident in that answer, not me riding by the way, but it is my pony.


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## Whipple

Let me guess.....false. I say it just cuz I feel it. They both seem stiff. But I really have no idea.


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## Dressage101

I would say that the rider should be riding with more forward movement and impulsion. I would not say it is totally false because the pony looks good. But, if you will notice the pony is moving a bit more on the forehand then from behind. If the pony was moving from behind the haunches would be more tucked, with a more rounded back (I'm guessing she would have a longer stride if she was moving more forward because her shoulder angle is really nice. Hard to tell about her hip though, from that pic). She looks good though and is really CUTE!!


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## Whipple

I learn so much here


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## MIEventer

False frame - 

1) Rider is not carrying nor supportive through her shoulders, to elbows to hands. Hands are carried to low, and rider is forcing a "head set"

2) Riders weight is on horses forehand, not aiding her horse to get back onto his haunches

3) Riders leg is not lifting the ribs, the back is hollowed out. Not rounded

4) Riders seat is not effective, upper body, way ahead of the verticle, tossing weight on horses forehand, not balanced over horses center of gravity.

5) Hind end is carried high.










Rider really needs to not perch while riding - needs to rock back and become more efficiant in the saddle, while being supportive and lifting. 

Not aiding pony at all.


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## upsidedown

Thanks, I think I understand this a little better now.



> She looks good though and is really CUTE!!


Hehe, he's a keeper, and a sweety, if not a little tubby this winter. But... they all get a little tubby in the winter.


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## MIEventer

Oh gosh, tell me about it. My TB is way out of shape, fo sho.


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## Spastic_Dove

ugh. i feel blind


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## upsidedown

Its soo much harder to keep them in shape in the winter!

At least my boy's not as fat as my friend's gelding got one winter and she was faced with the question:

"Aww when's she due?"


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## Spyder

Spastic_Dove said:


> ugh. i feel blind


 
Don't be. Eventer dressage people often don't see the same as a pure dressage person and you can get confused when one of each looks at the same picture and sees things in a different light.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

I always always always look at the riders hands first. If the riders hands are incorrect, the horse will NEVER have a correct frame. If the riders hands are correct the horse MAY have a correct frame. If the rider has correct hands and is riding effectively the horse SHOULD have a correct frame.


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## MIEventer

> I always always always look at the riders hands first. If the riders hands are incorrect, the horse will NEVER have a correct frame. If the riders hands are correct the horse MAY have a correct frame. If the rider has correct hands and is riding effectively the horse SHOULD have a correct frame.


I agree, and I disagree.

Yes the rider needs to have proper hand carraige. But that ties into the elbows, and the shoulders. 

If the hands are carried, but the elbows are stiff and the shoulders are roached...then that effects the horse.

Then you have to look at the lower back, it is roached? Is it hollow? If either..that effects the riders core, and that effects the riders seat. 

Then there is the seat - if the seat is not centered *on all 3 points* then that effects the horse as well. If the rider is on their crotch, now their weight is on their horses forehand. If they are on their seat bones, they are now riding with too heavy of a seat.

Legs - what are the riders legs doing?

There is so much at play for proper and true collection.



Here is an excellant article for anyone intersted to read. I have this permenantly bookmarked in my browser.

::: Sustainable Dressage - Collection & Its Evasions - True Collection - What It Is and How to Achieve It :::



> Don't be. Eventer dressage people often don't see the same as a pure dressage person and you can get confused when one of each looks at the same picture and sees things in a different light.:razz:


I don't understand what you mean here?

It isn't whether you do dressage as an Eventer, or USDF, or as a Hunter/Jumper or a Barrel Racer or GP Jumper - dressage is dressage.

It isn't what sport you are doing, it is who is teaching you how to do it. That is the key. It is what you are being taught and how you are being taught accordingly. 

I have seen "pure" dressage people riding front to back and on the forehand using gadgets to get some false outcome. I see "pure" dressage people riding around on the forehand with their horses heads up high and backs dropped, fidgeting with their horses faces to get some false headset.

Dressage is the biggest phase in eventing. If you do not do well in that phase, you have to work that much harder in the other 2 phases to get ahead of the game. 

The tests are judged by "pure" dressage judges.

I see flat work being done incorrectly all the time, because riders are under uneducated coaches - regardless of their discipline. I see flat work being done correctly because they are under educated coaches, regardless of their discipline.


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## Spyder

MIEventer said:


> The tests are judged by "pure" dressage judges.
> 
> I see flat work being done incorrectly all the time, because riders are under uneducated coaches - regardless of their discipline. I see flat work being done correctly because they are under educated coaches, regardless of their discipline.


I stand by my statement.

And yes many times the dressage phase is judged by a carded dressage judge as I have judged both events and dresssage tests.

My statement has nothing to do whether there are "dressage" people riding incorrectly or not. I see errors/disagreements in training from both disciplines and I have learned through a lot of experience to not be so judgemental with only one view in mind. I pointed this out in post 10 on this thread about being set in one view.

French or German...two different approaches but interesting that by the time the horse is about 3/4 level they are indistinguishable.


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## MIEventer

Intersting, I never knew that about the two different styles. What are they?


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## Spyder

MIEventer said:


> Intersting, I never knew that about the two different styles. What are they?


There are reams about the Frence style. Pretty much thought of as the CadreNoir





 




 
Very much based on the Iberian and SRS horses training with lightness and flexibility first being the emphsis (maybe a bit overdone) vs the german method which is more based on power through the hind end ( more what is done now but again can be overdone).

In coarse words do we run the horse forward until it finds its balance and head position or do we get the head position by flex work and drive the horse into a relaxed head position more slowly.

BOTH methods work.


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## Joshie

drool!!!


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## Spastic_Dove

..O_O Wow. That jumping is amazing.


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## Jenna

What an amazing thread!

My holsteiner is German born, bred and trained, and it took us going to a dressage clinic held by a grand prix dressage rider who rode german trained horses to fill in the gaps in our education! There were alot of times when he didn't know what I was asking and I didn't know how to ask properly!

Lui is very obliging and will do his utmost to figure out what you want. He was (and still is at times) very good at offering a false outline because he thinks simply bringing his nose in is what I'm asking. I've since bought a german dressage book and worked through their schooling and warming up exercises, and the difference in feel is just amazing! 

This is Lui - being ridden by my instructor - trying to please - putting his nose in his chest but the rest of him trialing a mile behind 









In this one, you can see he's tracking up much better and bringing his back legs further underneath him.









Riding Lui has taught me that to ride in a true 'frame' you should forget about the position of the head and work on the whole body.


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## Spastic_Dove

Ooh. See, in that picture I can DEFINITELY see the difference...


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## MIEventer

> Very much based on the Iberian and SRS horses training with lightness and flexibility first being the emphsis (maybe a bit overdone) vs the german method which is more based on power through the hind end ( more what is done now but again can be overdone).
> 
> In coarse words do we run the horse forward until it finds its balance and head position or do we get the head position by flex work and drive the horse into a relaxed head position more slowly.
> 
> BOTH methods work.


Great examples, and I had no idea there were two different styles.

I attended a clinic hosted/taught by *excuse spelling* Beirtre Herbiert Siebrel..?? From the SRS and he was phenominal and a wealth of knowledge.

He taught allot of driving from back end, obtaining balance and impulsion and lifting into the bridle.

Sometimes it was hard to understand him because he would speak in his foreign language - especially when he got angry - and leaving it up to his interpreter.

But he taught me allot about allowing my horse to learn to carry himself through the outside rein.

~~

For my TB - the German style is what works. 

I went around for a year with him, under a coach who taught me to supple thorugh the outside rein and fidget with his face to get this false headset - and it wasn't working.

He would drop his back, he wouldn't track up, he would carry it for just a moment and then throw his head and nose up/out.

Wasn't working.

It took getting under a new coach, and clinicing under Sarah Huges *Prix Saint George Competator and Beitre of the SPS to finally understand that it comes from the back end, driving forward and up and into my hands.

Leaving his face alone, allowing him to open up and come under himself is what works for us.

I've seen the difference it made in my boy - and I am a believer.

But what may work for him, may not for others.


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## missy06

I just wanted to throw my quick $0.02 in here. This is a great thread  I rode very briefly last night after work as the daylight and my tolerance to cold would allow, and I wanted to note what a HUGE difference carrying your hands makes.

My disclaimer is that I have no idea what Blaze and I looked like, I'm only going off of what I felt. I am working on overcoming years of shoddy and improper riding instruction. I've never learned how one's body should align and why the parts of our body need to move with the horse to function as a supple, communicative rider. I still have a LOT of work ahead of me. That said, simply picking up and carrying my hands (they used to be too low and hanging on horses' faces or elbows locked at sides) made B feel like he was a lot more rounded and relaxed under me, and I felt like I wasn't off kilter while riding, as I've felt so many times in the past.


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## Gillian

Okay so I definitely need a lot of work, and I know the picture angle is funny but I wanted to know whether you think we've got a true frame here or a false frame?


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## MIEventer

To me it looks like he is tense, stiff and on the muscle. I think that if the flash wasn't keeping his mouth shut, he'd be showing signs through his mouth as well.

I think it is false.

Is he light in your hands? Or heavy?


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## Spyder

Looks like the horse is braced against the bit.


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## Gillian

MIEventer said:


> To me it looks like he is tense, stiff and on the muscle. I think that if the flash wasn't keeping his mouth shut, he'd be showing signs through his mouth as well.
> 
> I think it is false.
> 
> Is he light in your hands? Or heavy?


He's pretty light in my hands actually.
I also was thinking it was false. The picture is just from the trial ride I had on him. Once we trailer him down here I'm going to be taking dressage lessons on him and really work on riding from my seat and not my hands. It's something I need to improve upon. And he didn't do much bracing against the bit during the ride, hmm. Might have been a badly timed picture. He's very forward and light so I think the picture is misleading a bit, although I still believe it's a false frame. Wish I had a video.

These are from the next day and the second time i've ever ridden him.
Not the best pictures but they're all I have.


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## MIEventer

His back is dropped, and his hind end is carried high.

You really need to work inside leg into outside rein- and have proper hand carraige with a correct elbow angle. 

There is no roundness to his body at all.

He is on the forehand and you are not aiding him at all through your seat, legs and hands.

I understand you are on a trail ride - but he is in a flase frame. I think he's been taught a headset by his previous owner - I can see it in the thread you started about him, the shot of her riding him..........so he has learnt this through his other owner.

I'd like to see him without the flash.


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## Spyder

Better but not there yet.


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## Gillian

Thanks for explaining. :]
I'll take more pictures after we've been taking lessons for awhile and see if there's an improvement.


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## CJ82Sky

Gillian said:


> Thanks for explaining. :]
> I'll take more pictures after we've been taking lessons for awhile and see if there's an improvement.


Just out of curiosity - why such a harsh bit? You'll have a much harder time having a horse learn to accept contact and work front to back with a running gag like that in his mouth. From the looks of it, that coupled with the fig-8 is the culprit for the hollow back, false frame, and false light feeling in your hands.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents

Is this even close to a true frame? I know there's a lot of work left, but is he completely off or is he on the right path? Ignore the bolt, this is the most trot woork I have on video


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## Spyder

1dog3cats17rodents said:


> Is this even close to a true frame? I know there's a lot of work left, but is he completely off or is he on the right path? Ignore the bolt, this is the most trot woork I have on video
> YouTube - Painter bolting


No. I watched the video and the one thing I saw which stood out was the outside shoulder when you were doing your circles. You didn't really have control of the front end and that the outside shoulder was "popped" and drifting outward.

You were using too much inside rein resulting in the shoulder going to the outside and you ended up just turning the nose and not the whole horse. The neck was being bent to the inside sure enough but but the rest of the body was not really following the curve. You cannot get a true or correct frame this way. What you needed was less use of the inside rein and a stronger outside rein and more outside leg to get the turns accomplished.

Try practicing that and even the bolts can be minimized.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents

Okay, thanks :-( I'll try to get a better video, I know these circles were bad (I wasn't working on the circles, if you listen, my trainers having me turn him hard to get his attention) I'll try to get ones of him being good and see if he's at least a bit better :-(


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## MIEventer

> No. I watched the video and the one thing I saw which stood out was the outside shoulder when you were doing your circles. You didn't really have control of the front end and that the outside shoulder was "popped" and drifting outward.
> 
> You were using too much inside rein resulting in the shoulder going to the outside and you ended up just turning the nose and not the whole horse. The neck was being bent to the inside sure enough but but the rest of the body was not really following the curve. You cannot get a true or correct frame this way. What you needed was less use of the inside rein and a stronger outside rein and more outside leg to get the turns accomplished.
> 
> Try practicing that and even the bolts can be minimized.:razz:


Agree'd.

So many people overuse the inside rein - thinking that it has allot of function, when in reality it does not.

So much comes from the outside rein. Circles, turns, bends, side passing, etc, etc, etc.

Inside Leg into Outside Rein.

I was able to attend a clinic last summer that a Prix Saint George Competator named Sarah Hughes taught. She was able to get on a clinitians horse, a horse she never knew - and rode with the inside rein dropped.

She did 20 meter circles, she did serpentines and half passes, turn on the haunches, all with the outside rein and her inside leg. I am sure her outside leg was there and seat bones, but I was so caught up in her outside rein, I never noticed much else.

She was prooving a point to the rider she was teaching at that time, that the inside rein has very little use.

Loved it! It was great to watch and learn from.


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## MIEventer

> Just out of curiosity - why such a harsh bit? You'll have a much harder time having a horse learn to accept contact and work front to back with a running gag like that in his mouth. From the looks of it, that coupled with the fig-8 is the culprit for the hollow back, false frame, and false light feeling in your hands.


 
Good eye CJ82Sky - never even saw the Gag Bit!!! 

I used a Gag Bit - once.................never will again *ahem* I rode in a clinic taught by a Rolex Eventer and Olympic Rider. I signed up for her Novice Level Class. 

When she did our tack check, she saw the bit...and boy did she tell me what. I was using a Single Jointed, Egg Butt Gag Bit. I sure learnt my lesson and immediately went back to the barn and did a bridle change with a D Ring Snaffle.

That thing hasn't even left my tack box since that day.


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## CJ82Sky

MIEventer said:


> Good eye CJ82Sky - never even saw the Gag Bit!!!
> 
> I used a Gag Bit - once.................never will again *ahem* I rode in a clinic taught by a Rolex Eventer and Olympic Rider. I signed up for her Novice Level Class.
> 
> When she did our tack check, she saw the bit...and boy did she tell me what. I was using a Single Jointed, Egg Butt Gag Bit. I sure learnt my lesson and immediately went back to the barn and did a bridle change with a D Ring Snaffle.
> 
> That thing hasn't even left my tack box since that day.


LOL i use a 2 ring elevator for my Clyde cross for field hunting and XC. It's a happy mouth and he loves it (we flat and do jumpers in a loose ring happy mouth). We use it b/c we found out the hard way that he gets a little excited and at nearly 17.3 we forget we have a rider....haha! But it's a very limited gag in that it's the small 2 ring, not a running gag (ACK!). I'm not against a 2 or 3 ring elevator in the right hands for the right horse but it's also not an all the time bit and only for the right horse in the right hands.....


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## Gillian

CJ82Sky said:


> Just out of curiosity - why such a harsh bit? You'll have a much harder time having a horse learn to accept contact and work front to back with a running gag like that in his mouth. From the looks of it, that coupled with the fig-8 is the culprit for the hollow back, false frame, and false light feeling in your hands.


He's actually going nicely in a rubber d snaffle now and is doing great. I'm going to go try him again in that bit before any final decision. She only had that bit with her at the time, she used to use it when they were showjumping. He's a really powerful horse and she is very petite and has pretty much no upper body strength. He won't be using a bit like that with me though.


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## MIEventer

> LOL i use a 2 ring elevator for my Clyde cross for field hunting and XC. It's a happy mouth and he loves it (we flat and do jumpers in a loose ring happy mouth). We use it b/c we found out the hard way that he gets a little excited and at nearly 17.3 we forget we have a rider....haha! But it's a very limited gag in that it's the small 2 ring, not a running gag (ACK!). I'm not against a 2 or 3 ring elevator in the right hands for the right horse but it's also not an all the time bit and only for the right horse in the right hands.....


I never knew any better at the time. The horse I used was my Husbands, and that is the bit he used when hacking and doing CC and Fox Hunting - so that is the bit I was told to use.

Never even knew any better.

So I tack up excitedly and go to the indoor arena where the clinic was being taught - and within 5 mintues, I was back in the barn changing the bridle. LOL.

Now I cannot remember exactly how she worded it, it was 3 years ago..but it was something like a rider compeating at low levels, such as myself at Novice - should not have to use a bit like that for a level of control. She said that if I had to use that gag for a level of control now, she fears where my level of control would be when we progress to higher levels. If I don't have it now, I definately wont have it later.

She also said, a rider has no business being out on the cc course at low levels in a bit like that, but instead should be back in the sand box working on basics and filling the holes that lack in our training.

Sooo - I tucked my tail between my legs, and scimpered back to the barn. LOL.

She made allot of sense. 

Then, a couple of months later, Bill Hoos came to teach. That time, I was in a simple snaffle. HA HA I SAID!!! I'll be one step ahead.

After my ride, I went and watched the Training Level Riders - each and every single one of them were in 3 Ring Elevators.

What did Bill Hoos have to say about it - same thing. He shook his head and asked "is it some sort of fad to have a 3 ring on cc now?"

He stressed to the riders pretty much what was stressed to me.


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## Picture Perfect

False Frame...










He pulled his head down to swat a bug. :lol:


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