# What So Bad About Grade Horses?



## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

All my horses have been grade so I've never owned a registered horse
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PaintCowgirl (Jan 2, 2012)

i have owned over four dozen horses in my life. MOST are $500 or less grade horses. my favorite horse of my life was Sully, best horse in the world, i traded 10 round bales for him when he was four cuz i unloaded the round bales then the guy decided he had no cash and i told him i'd take that horse (and pointed to sully) in exchange...turned out to be the most capable horse on the ranch. i taught him how to work cattle, cut (competed on him cutting), trail ride, barrell race, rope, check cattle, you name it Sully would do it. i've owned $30,000 horses out of prestige QH lines as well. most can do everything as well. i think its about the demenour and how you handle the horse that makes the difference. my horses work. i have 500+ head of momma cattle (meaning almost a thousand between calving and sale) on over 1000 acres and they WORK. i ask the same out of my grade horses as i do my $30k horses. work! i saddle them the same, feed em the same, and when i throw a leg over, it dont matter who i'm on, we got a job to do and we are going to do it. i currently own grade horses and two registered horses that together would pay off my mortgage. i ask and expect the same out of all of them. theres rarely anything wrong with grade horses, they may not always 'look' as pretty as the top line horses and if you show, i guess thats important, but i use a horse as a horse, just like i use a truck as a truck.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

There's nothing wrong with grade horses, and many of them are fantastic athletes. 

It's just that some people want to know their animal's bloodlines, and whether or not they're performance bred. You don't know that without a pedigree.

A second and even more important reason is that you can determine what, if any, genetic issues may crop up based on your horse's bloodlines.

Taking on a grade, you're basically buying blind; you have no idea what may be lurking in their genetic make up, and you don't know if they're going to suit the discipline for which you bought them.

All of the horses I've owned have been registered. I like to know what their potential is based on their bloodlines, and have a heads up on any illnesses or conditions to which they might be prone.

I don't buy for 'pretty', I buy for conformation and potential. With a registered horse, I know his potential based on his bloodlines.

So throwing aside the 'snob' idea, it really does make sense to have registered horses with traceable bloodlines due to the reasons I listed.


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## draftgrl (Jan 8, 2011)

Paint cowgirl: If you ever are looking for a bit of extra help out on the ranch, let me know!! Would love to get out and working from the back of a horse again!


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## Sinister (Nov 28, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> There's nothing wrong with grade horses, and many of them are fantastic athletes.
> 
> It's just that some people want to know their animal's bloodlines, and whether or not they're performance bred. You don't know that without a pedigree.
> 
> ...


But just because they're bred for it doesn't mean they're going to be good at it or even like it. Examples: a thoroughbred can bred through the roof with amazing racing blood, but he may just enjoy jumping better and lose races because he doesn't like it. Or a cutting horse that just doesn't really like cows. A warmblood that doesn't like the english world. Do you get where I'm coming from? Just because they're bred for it doesn't mean they'll be good at it.

I get the health problems part of getting a registered horse, but then again most of the diseases [talking about ones like HYPP] are breed associated and grades have a less likely chance of having them. But with other things like blindness and such always have a possibility. But if someone is really worried about that then they could get a pre purchase vet check if they really wanted to. I have yet to buy a grade horse that has health problems [even the ones I buy that are over 200lbs under weight] that could have been seen before hand with knowing the pedigree.

So you're saying if you were to see a grade horse and a registered horse with the same conformation same color same everything, and they were both proven in your desired discipline with the same potential to go higher. Except the registered was $10,000 out of your price range and the grade was only $100 you'd buy the grade?

Nobody said or suggested a "snob" idea.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I haven't seen people saying "grade horses are bad". I've seen them saying "breeding grade horses is bad". :wink: 

The only problem with showing if you own grade is that you can't participate in breed-specific shows (like AQHA or APHA shows). But say for dressage shows I go to noone really cares if you own a registered horse, a grade, or a mule.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

i love my grades. its the same to me as owning a mixed breed dog from the pound. you never know what you get until you get it and work with it...

it has always worked out for me but i don't compete in anything...well not yet anyways lol 

but i guess for ppl who are big into showing and want to get somewhere with it it is necesary to have a nice pedigree registered horse so you know what to base them off of before spending the money


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## Sinister (Nov 28, 2011)

kait18 said:


> i love my grades. its the same to me as owning a mixed breed dog from the pound. you never know what you get until you get it and work with it...
> 
> it has always worked out for me but i don't compete in anything...well not yet anyways lol
> 
> but i guess for ppl who are big into showing and want to get somewhere with it it is necesary to have a nice pedigree registered horse so you know what to base them off of before spending the money


Girls I know that compete in NBHA and MeBHA with they're grades do just as well and better then girls with their AHQs. I would post pictures and videos of them but forum rules say I can't [right?].


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## Sinister (Nov 28, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> I haven't seen people saying "grade horses are bad". I've seen them saying "breeding grade horses is bad". :wink:
> 
> The only problem with showing if you own grade is that you can't participate in breed-specific shows (like AQHA or APHA shows). But say for dressage shows I go to noone really cares if you own a registered horse, a grade, or a mule.


I've seen a few on potential buy critiques as well but agree a lot are on breeding.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Sinister said:


> get the health problems part of getting a registered horse, but then again most of the diseases [talking about ones like HYPP] are breed associated and grades have a less likely chance of having them. But with other things like blindness and such always have a possibility. But if someone is really worried about that then they could get a pre purchase vet check if they really wanted to. I have yet to buy a grade horse that has health problems [even the ones I buy that are over 200lbs under weight] that could have been seen before hand with knowing the pedigree.
> 
> So you're saying if you were to see a grade horse and a registered horse with the same conformation same color same everything, and they were both proven in your desired discipline with the same potential to go higher. Except the registered was $10,000 out of your price range and the grade was only $100 you'd buy the grade?


Grade doesn't always mean partbred, Mutt, heinz 57 - it merely means there are no papers in hand.

Grade horses can have the same genetic issues. The owner/vet sinmply doesn't have a clear starting point as they would if they had the genetic history in front of them.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Sinister said:


> But just because they're bred for it doesn't mean they're going to be good at it or even like it.


Yes, which is why I stated_ potential_, not that they'd be guaranteed to be good at it. My TB is a perfect example. He made a crappy racehorse, but he's a good athlete and does very well at hunter paces, foxhunting, and trail riding. I took him on because I knew he'd been bred as an athlete, and would probably do well with my preferred disciplines.

For whatever discipline you buy you want a horse with the proper potential, and you won't know that unless you buy one with proven bloodlines. Doesn't mean that horse is going to love the job or even be great at it, but the_ potential_ is higher for success than in a horse for which you have no background.



Sinister said:


> I get the health problems part of getting a registered horse, but then again most of the diseases [talking about ones like HYPP] are breed associated and grades have a less likely chance of having them. But with other things like blindness and such always have a possibility. But if someone is really worried about that then they could get a pre purchase vet check if they really wanted to. I have yet to buy a grade horse that has health problems [even the ones I buy that are over 200lbs under weight] that could have been seen before hand with knowing the pedigree.


If you don't know a horse's pedigree, you have no idea what genetic anomalies or conditions for which he might be prone. A PPE won't give you that information, it will only give you the physical condition of the horse at the moment. Even blood work won't tell you anything, unless you're looking for something specific.

A grade could have bloodlines back to Impressive, but you wouldn't know that until he showed signs of HYPP. There's no guarantee that a grade won't be prone to illnesses or conditions that plague specific breeds, because he could very well have those breeds in his pedigree.

I have yet to buy a registered horse that had health problems, so I don't see what correlation you're trying to make.



Sinister said:


> So you're saying if you were to see a grade horse and a registered horse with the same conformation same color same everything, and they were both proven in your desired discipline with the same potential to go higher. Except the registered was $10,000 out of your price range and the grade was only $100 you'd buy the grade?


Certainly, why not? If the horse is already _proven_ in that discipline, I don't have to worry about his potential. Snowman was a grade, and look how well he did over the years.

There's a lot of snobbery on _both _sides of the fence when it comes to grades and pedigreed horses. I've always agreed that there are good and bad in both, and to say that one is better than the other is ludicrous.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> I haven't seen people saying "grade horses are bad". I've seen them saying "breeding grade horses is bad". :wink:


Bingo we have a winner, Grade horses can grow up to be great, or terrible, sick or healthy. breeding mutts is a shot in the dark. Seems like grade breeders always assume that they will get a foal that has the good features of both parents. It is just as likely to get the bad features of both parents.


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## BarrelRacer23 (Aug 17, 2011)

I like registered horses, but I've had my handful of grades. For what I do I don't need papers, even my grade colt (who I actually know his breeding) can be entered in barrel futurities if I wanted too. I like knowing my horses pedigrees and lines and it helps with potential. But there's also plenty of registered horses out there doing something their not bred to do and excelling in it. Unless you want to do breed shows or breed, being registered shouldn't matter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Sinister said:


> I've seen a few on potential buy critiques as well but agree a lot are on breeding.


I think with potential buy if you plan to re-sell later in life (and some people do, nothing wrong with it), it's usually easier to sell the papered one. Or at least a common believe is it's easier. 

Also for the particular discipline it's preferable to have a horse with certain lines sometime (that were bred for say discipline). Overall people look very differently at the registration. Mine both are registered, and frankly I don't care: if they were grades I'd be totally OK.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Two of my three horses are grade. One is a BLM mustang...sure seems healthy, but no one knows his parentage. 

My Appy is also 'grade', but the rancher I got him from knew his bloodlines back for generations. He breeds his own horses for use on the ranch, and knew the history of the Appy stallion...that broke one fence and bred a purebred Arabian mare thru another fence. But the bloodlines were known for at least 5 generations - they just aren't registered anywhere.

Some folks need a purebred for a reason, and some understand bloodlines. My mare is purebred, but all that tells me is that she is from CMK lines - mostly K. I don't know enough for it to mean anything to me.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Your mare's Arabian, bsms? 

CMK stands for Crabbet/Maynesboro/Kellogg. If she's heavily Kellogg, it means most of her parentage is from the Kellogg Ranch. Those 3 breeding farms have heavily influenced the pedigrees of US bred Arabians for almost 100 years.

And yes, they're_ those_ Kelloggs; the cereal people. :wink:


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## Sinister (Nov 28, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> A grade could have bloodlines back to Impressive, but you wouldn't know that until he showed signs of HYPP. There's no guarantee that a grade won't be prone to illnesses or conditions that plague specific breeds, because he could very well have those breeds in his pedigree.
> 
> I have yet to buy a registered horse that had health problems, so I don't see what correlation you're trying to make.


I agreed with you.  


> _..Grade horses can grow up to be great, or terrible, sick or healthy_. Breeding mutts is a shot in the dark. Seems like grade breeders always assume that they will get a foal that has the good features of both parents. It is just as likely to get the bad features of both parents.


The same can happen with a registered horse, not all registered horses are worth $10,000. It depends on where it was bred and how it was raised; same with a grade. 
Breeding is always a shot in the dark, and there are plenty of breeders that think the same about registered horses. And there are plenty of grade breeders that know what they're doing. And it's just as likely that you can get bad features from both parents from a registered horse. With breeding there's no guarantee that your going to get what you want. You have the same chance to get a bad foal with a grade mare and stallion then you do with a registered mare and stallion. 



> I think with potential buy if you plan to re-sell later in life (and some people do, nothing wrong with it), it's usually easier to sell the papered one. Or at least a common believe is it's easier. :smile:


I actually think it's easier to sell a grade horse because most of them are under priced and a lot of registered horses [at least in my area] are extremely over priced.


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## PaintCowgirl (Jan 2, 2012)

draftgrl said:


> Paint cowgirl: If you ever are looking for a bit of extra help out on the ranch, let me know!! Would love to get out and working from the back of a horse again!


 
sounds good! i typically pay in beer and supper! lol.

i wouldnt trade it for the world! one day i'm going to buy myself a big ranch in wyoming and join the big league cattle boys! my x-boyfriend gets out there with his four wheeler sometimes and i prove to him over and over again why i stick to horses! try cutting on a four wheeler, try a four wheeler in a 30 foot pen with 10 head and you need to cut one out, ya cant sneak up on an animal in a four wheeler, roping from 'down there' on a four wheeler is a bit ridiculous and a four wheeler sure dont love me like my horsies do!


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## draftgrl (Jan 8, 2011)

Sounds good to me! Grainbelt pleaase!!!

Yeah, I haven't worked cattle from atop a horse, but have to an extent rounded up horses. Yes they were dude horses, but some of the new ones were pretty difficult.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Sinister said:


> I actually think it's easier to sell a grade horse because most of them are under priced and a lot of registered horses [at least in my area] are extremely over priced.


True. If the horse is very good at a discipline, a grade will normally bring a lower price than one of equal ability that is registered - particularly if it is a mare or stallion, as most people don't like to use grades for breeding stock. Registration does add value when selling, even if that value is based upon a subjective rather than objective basis.

_________

As to the question at hand, I doubt any reasonable person has anything against grade horses - if they have been responsibly and intelligently bred. Many crosses are better at the job they do than a purebred would be. Remember, that all breeds arose as a cross or combination of established breeds. A "junk" grade is another matter of course, but a lot of people breed "junk" purebreds too, and they are no better than "junk" grades.

Using grades as breeding stock is, of course, a different matter. Breeding horses with unknown ancestry is not generally prudent because the product is unpredictable.

IMO anyone that has an issue with grades is no different than a person that is prejudiced against Arabs, Quarterhorses, Appys, Morgans, TB's, or any other breed. Once a horse is born, the measure of its usefulness is its dispostion and ability. Whether it is registered or not is irrelevant other than when it comes to money for the reasons I mentioned above, and of course being qualified to participate in breed shows. 

I have never quite understaood the prejudice against grades, and can only attribute it to foolish snobbiness. If you breed a champion stallion to a champion mare and produce a registered champion foal, is that foal any better quality than if the breeder had failed to submit a stallion report and the foal couldn't be registered, so is a grade? Or if a grade soundly beats a registered horse in a race or competition, is it of lesser quality than the registered horse?

Absurd...


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

I've had both grade and registered horses and in my humble experience I've found grades to be hardy, athletic, easy keeping, sound, and even tempered. Six of the registered horses I've owned had different problems that I have yet to experience with grades.
Two of them were hot headed over bred QH mares with evil and often dangerous dispositions, one in particular had horrific feet and was constantly absessing. They were nothing but breeder culls with incredible pedigrees and flashy looks.
My NSH mare died of liver failure at 11, she was kept the exact same way as my grades for 8 years, fed the same diet etc.
My families $25,000 QH mare had breeding problems, she was the last "fertile" offspring out of a pretty famous line. She died giving birth to a little filly in Mississippi but at least her line lives, they will never breed her, she is the spitting image of her dam.
My Rooster bred gelding had every ailment known to horses and had to be babied his entire life, he died at 28 but was semi retired at age 18 due to arthritis.
And there are many other stories...
The best registered horse I've ever owned is out in my pasture now, so far she has been wonderfully easy to keep. Except for some reason she is prone to developing cysts, she's had to have 4 minor surgeries.

As far as my grades go, I have yet to have one die of an ailment. My first mare was 16 when she passed by way of tornado, she looked like she was 5. My daughter's pony was a shetland/appy/paint of some sort and she had COPD and was going blind, the only grade I've had a problem with. I believe she had a really rough life that contributed to her poor condition.
Just look at guided trail horses, you'll hardly find a highly registered horse in one of those strings. They are cheap, decent looking, level headed, highly trained animals. A lot of them were bred to be that way. Take the story of the guide who encountered the bear on the trail and saved the boy. That was a grade horse.

I think the snobbery comes into play when you look at the different types of grade/cross breeds. The sport horse crosses are not nearly as bashed as a cross between western types. I had a woman ask my geldings QH lines out riding and when I told her he was a grade she promptly walked off. Guess without a piece of paper he wasn't nearly as good lookin! Ha! 

Some grades, especially Quarabs, deserve to be recognized. I wish there was a better program for them just to highlight how special they can be. They are personally my favorite. I get really miffed when people don't recognize the difference between lowlifes just wanting a "purdy baba" from their mare and then using the same distinction against a old timer, who knows a heck of alot more about horseflesh than the average joe or top breeder, crossing a couple of really good horses regardless of weather or not they have papers. I despise the term "backyard breeders" when it's applied to someone who purposely breeds a grade. And I'm talking about the people who do so with the intention to pass on a great horses abilities and looks and take care knowing their history. Grades get bashed for not having a "history" but many who are bred by "responsible" breeders provide documentation of vet records. Many registered horses come with false documentation so as in all cases buyer beware. 

To be truly honest... I have a hard time going out bushwacking on a $10,000+ horse. Makes me a nervous wreck. Not that I care less about any horse I ride due to how much they cost, but accidents happen. Of course family history matters, for dogs, horses, livestock (especially meat producers), but you can't paper handling or TRUE talent of the individual. And talent does not 100% beget talent. That fact has been proven over and over again. Often times there are unintended consequences of doing so. But knowing any horse before you breed and their families tendencies is key, you don't exactly need a piece of paper to prove that.
Fugly is fugly, no horse with obvious problems should be bred. But a great horse without papers is far better in my mind than a poor one with them.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Sinister said:


> I actually think it's easier to sell a grade horse because most of them are under priced and a lot of registered horses [at least in my area] are extremely over priced.


With a crappy market as it is now it doesn't really matter in my area. And those that can jump or do dressage (and are shown successfully) costs $$$ whether it's a grade or registered.


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## Country Woman (Dec 14, 2011)

But just because they're bred for it doesn't mean they're going to be good at it or even like it. Examples: a thoroughbred can bred through the roof with amazing racing blood, but he may just enjoy jumping better and lose races because he doesn't like it. Or a cutting horse that just doesn't really like cows. A warmblood that doesn't like the english world. Do you get where I'm coming from? Just because they're bred for it doesn't mean they'll be good at it.
Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/what-so-bad-about-grade-horses-113265/#ixzz1mZYvT74m
​


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## Country Woman (Dec 14, 2011)

It does not matter to me if they are grade 
as long as they are sound, and the right match for me


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## mudpie (Jul 15, 2011)

Grade horses are awesome

Just don't breed them! 

You know, Mudpie's not registered, and we all know how epic _he_ is...

Juuust saying ;D


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

The best horse I ever owned (and likely will ever own) was a grade. I don't think there is snobbery against grades, just that with the market the way it is, it's better to breed for the best quality possible.


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## Country Woman (Dec 14, 2011)

I don't want to breed since I would like a gelding


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

As many of the other posters have said, nothing is "bad" about a grade horse. Breeding them can be and most of the time is bad..Other posters have already pointed out the many great things you know and can tell by a registered horse. A registered horse, to me, is better because you can tell where they came from, see any genetic diseases or defects that can be passed on, know the horse's history, you and your horse can be a part of something bigger (a registry and association), and you can learn SO much more about the breed and your horse in general..A grade however, you're lucky to know it's parents and breed..You have no way of knowing if the horse may carry and pass on genetic diseases and defects, you have no way of knowing it's true history, nothing really fantastic..A grade horse just is what it is. A horse, it can be a perfect example of a mutt or it can be a horse like Banman's mare, who is quite a nice mare and had proven herself in many areas..

That said, I do own 3 registered Quarter Horse's with pretty nice bloodlines..To me, a registered horse is worth more and has more resale value, I know what I'm buying and know what potential I have. If I ever decide to breed one or both of my mares I will know what I have to work with and what I can look for in a stallion to improve and/or contribute to my mare's traits to make an outstanding foal..Yes, there can be the "oops" foals who just aren't what they are bred for but they are pretty rare and a good example of those "Oops" horses is Doc Bar, he wasn't bred for cutting at all, but he changed the cutting world forever through his offspring and amazing traits he passed on..Could he have done it without really nice mares? Probably not, the breeders paired Doc Bar with a really well bred mare to hope to pass on those traits and characteristics to their foals. Breeding is a science....but the fact is about Doc Bar, he is a registered "Oops" that failed to be what he was bred for but he turned another discipline into something amazing. 

We do own one grade horse..and I have not a clue as to what he is..We can only assume TWH because he's gaited and well, that's what the previous owner said he was. We have no way of knowing his history..My Dad scooped him out of a field where he was malnourished and not taken care of at all..He is one of the best horses we have and I love him to death.. Would I have taken a second look at his ugly butt if he hadn't been in such bad shape? Nope. He's a good guy though and we all love him, horrible conformation, big head and all.

It all comes down to personal preference...I'm not really a breed snob and I'm not going to say one if better than the other... I am partial to my registered QHs and I doubt I'll ever own anything else..but to each their own and I can respect why everyone chooses the breed and discipline they ride.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

I have nothing against grades, but I would not breed for a grade either. All of the horses I've ever owned have been registered with the exception of my first pony. Because I show breed shows (AQHA) it has to be a registered horse. But even if I didn't show, I would still want a registered horse because it's like a history book for that horse. The resale value is also higher. And while the saying is..."you can't ride papers"....heck ya you can! I do it every time I get on my horse!


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## Sinister (Nov 28, 2011)

FlyGap said:


> As far as my grades go, I have yet to have one die of an ailment. My first mare was 16 when she passed by way of tornado, she looked like she was 5. My daughter's pony was a shetland/appy/paint of some sort and she had COPD and was going blind, the only grade I've had a problem with. I believe she had a really rough life that contributed to her poor condition.
> Just look at guided trail horses, you'll hardly find a highly registered horse in one of those strings. They are cheap, decent looking, level headed, highly trained animals. A lot of them were bred to be that way. Take the story of the guide who encountered the bear on the trail and saved the boy. That was a grade horse.


Yeah, my sister had a big 20yo grade mare that when we got her was literally skin in bones, 800lbs under weight. The vet didn't think she was going to make and a couple of times we didn't think she would either. It took almost a year but we eventually got her back to the ideal weight and had her for 10 more years, we had to put her down this past summer because she had breathing problems due to the humidity and we had to put her down because she stopped eating. But up until the day she was put down she never stopped acting like a 2yo filly. The vet gave her morphine before he put her down and she dragged him all over the place for a good ten minutes [morphine made her "crazy"] before he could give her another shot of morphine to "calm her down". She was one hardy mare, given what she'd been through in her life.

Great post buy the way!


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## Sinister (Nov 28, 2011)

DrumRunner said:


> ...you can tell where they came from, see any genetic diseases or defects that can be passed on, know the horse's history, you and your horse can be a part of something bigger (a registry and association), and you can learn SO much more about the breed and your horse in general..A grade however, you're lucky to know it's parents and breed..You have no way of knowing if the horse may carry and pass on genetic diseases and defects, you have no way of knowing it's true history, nothing really fantastic..A grade horse just is what it is. A horse
> 
> That said, I do own 3 registered Quarter Horse's with pretty nice bloodlines..To me, a registered horse is worth more and has more resale value, I know what I'm buying and know what potential I have. If I ever decide to breed one or both of my mares I will know what I have to work with and what I can look for in a stallion to improve and/or contribute to my mare's traits to make an outstanding foal..Yes, there can be the "oops" foals who just aren't what they are bred for but they are pretty rare and a good example of those "Oops" horses is Doc Bar, he wasn't bred for cutting at all, but he changed the cutting world forever through his offspring and amazing traits he passed on..Could he have done it without really nice mares? Probably not, the breeders paired Doc Bar with a really well bred mare to hope to pass on those traits and characteristics to their foals. Breeding is a science....but the fact is about Doc Bar, he is a registered "Oops" that failed to be what he was bred for but he turned another discipline into something amazing.
> 
> ...


If a grade horse is just a horse, what is a registered horse; a diamond? :wink:

Like many of the other grade owners have said we have had yet to have diseases or defects with them. Not saying that they can't have them just that. All the grades I've owned and been around have been more hardy and "long lasting"/more tough then the registered horses I've known and seen. 
An ugly horse is an ugly horse be it that they are registered or not. In my opinion anyway.

I guess my original question didn't come out the way I wanted it to, or it's changed. But either way what I think I was wondering was, why do people spend oodles of money for a registered horse just because it's registered.
I can go out and buy a better broke horse then some expensive registered horse for a couple hundred dollars.
I'm not being "grade snobby" I just don't see a point in spending thousands of dollars for a horse just for papers UNLESS you do breed shows. I'm not ignorant in the show world or the registered horse world. I just don't have thousands of dollars to spend on a registered horse [or would I if I did] if I could buy a horse that could do the same for a couple hundred.


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## cowgirlupintexas (Jan 13, 2012)

After reading through most of this thread, you guys have answered a lot of questions that I had. I never even knew what the heck a "grade" horse was. So, in other words, it would be like a mutt dog? I'll take a mutt any day.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Sinister said:


> If a grade horse is just a horse, what is a registered horse; a diamond? :wink:
> 
> Like many of the other grade owners have said we have had yet to have diseases or defects with them. Not saying that they can't have them just that.* All the grades I've owned and been around have been more hardy and "long lasting"/more tough then the registered horses I've known and seen.*
> An ugly horse is an ugly horse be it that they are registered or not. In my opinion anyway.
> ...


All of my registered horses have been healthy and lived into their 20's. It has nothing to do with being grade or registered...it's has to do with the horse itself.

The second bold....more expensive registered horses are expensive for a reason; their bloodlines and their performance. In my show world, a $200 horse is not going to beat a $10K horse, it just doesn't happen.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Sinister said:


> If a grade horse is just a horse, what is a registered horse; a diamond? :wink:


I may have a diamond, ruby, emerald, any other precious stone, but I know what I'm getting...and I can shine that stone up and put it in a nice setting and make beautiful jewelry, while some may not like or be able to afford the nice jewelry, there is a demand for that jewelry none the less for those that DO want to have real diamonds...A grade horse may just be the mud that sits around those precious stones, or it may be a cubic zirconia..Looks like a diamond, may feel like a diamond..But it sure isn't a diamond and won't ever make that standard.




Sinister said:


> Like many of the other grade owners have said we have had yet to have diseases or defects with them. Not saying that they can't have them just that. All the grades I've owned and been around have been more hardy and "long lasting"/more tough then the registered horses I've known and seen.
> An ugly horse is an ugly horse be it that they are registered or not. In my opinion anyway.


And that may be true for some grade horses, but not all...I've seen a grade horses that don't make it into their second year before becoming so lame that they can't even live a nice live and have to be PTS...It can happen to ANY horse, registered, grade, this breed or that breed...No two horses are alike..



Sinister said:


> I guess my original question didn't come out the way I wanted it to, or it's changed. But either way what I think I was wondering was, why do people spend oodles of money for a registered horse just because it's registered.
> I can go out and buy a better broke horse then some expensive registered horse for a couple hundred dollars.
> I'm not being "grade snobby" I just don't see a point in spending thousands of dollars for a horse just for papers UNLESS you do breed shows. I'm not ignorant in the show world or the registered horse world. I just don't have thousands of dollars to spend on a registered horse [or would I if I did] if I could buy a horse that could do the same for a couple hundred.


Your posts are coming across as defensive of grade horses and not being open minded when it comes to the reasons why so many people would rather have a registered horse...Like I said before, it all comes down to personal preference..You don't have to understand why I want to pay more for a registered horse..I respect and understand why you'd like to pay less and have a grade horse...To each their own, but be respectful of the "other side" of the horse world...What you don't know will hurt you a lot more than sticking to one thing and being close minded..



AWESOME post GotaDunQH.


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## QOS (Dec 8, 2008)

My first "big" horse was a grade mare - she may have been a registered horse at one time but she didn't come to me with papers. :lol: She was an absolute jewel. 

When I got into horses again I bought a registered QH with a wonderful bloodline. I wanted to KNOW what I was getting. He has a wonderful temperament like his bloodline is known for. I gave him to a friend because he had anhydrosis and not suited for trail riding. He is doing a great job for her and her daughter. 

I bought a horse for Honey Darling Precious....again a registered QH with a fantastic pedigree and he lives up to that pedigree - he is a terrific horse and has the ability to do many things. He is trained out the wazootie and a very sweet horse at that. 

Biscuit doesn't have papers. He can be registered but he never was as a foal. Does that make him less of a terrific guy? No. It did mean I had a limit on what I was going to spend on him though - and I know that I got a BARGAIN on this horse. I have put many miles and loads of training on him, got him in tip top shape health wise too, so he is NOT the same horse I bought. LOL His former owner rode him on a trail ride in October and told hubby "this is not the horse I sold her!" An acquaintance had wanted to purchase him before I did but didn't want to pay what was asked because he wasn't registered. She tells me that every time she sees me on Biscuit. I told her the other day "you should have snapped him up even at that price - it was a bargain!" 

I don't show so it doesn't matter that he isn't registered. I could send the papers in now and do the DNA tests but it isn't that important to me at this point. 

I do know his lineage though and his sire is a champion horse - that is terrific and Biscuit has many of his sire's traits. 

There is rarely a "diamond in the rough" grade horse that is really a grade horse from backyard stock. They are out there and are few and far between but most of us aren't looking for a super star out of a grade horse - we are looking for a good solid steady eddy horse and grade horses can certainly be that!!!


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

DrumRunner said:


> I may have a diamond, ruby, emerald, any other precious stone, but I know what I'm getting...and I can shine that stone up and put it in a nice setting and make beautiful jewelry, while some may not like or be able to afford the nice jewelry, there is a demand for that jewelry none the less for those that DO want to have real diamonds...A grade horse may just be the mud that sits around those precious stones, or it may be a cubic zirconia..Looks like a diamond, may feel like a diamond..But it sure isn't a diamond and won't ever make that standard.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And your post is awesome as well! I don't begrudge ANYONE for wanting or liking grades. I just don't think grades should be bred, but that's just my opinion.

So I don't understand why someone would begrudge me for wanting a registered horse and the fact that I find importance in it. I'm serious about my showing, and for every AQHA point I get at a show....means a payback through the Incentive Fund every year...cold hard cash. And those points make that horse more valuable. 

What I find scary with grades is that genetic disorders have infiltrated cross breds and grades. And it's because a grade or unregistered horse was crossed somewhere down the line with an animal with a genetic disorder; backyard breeding, people that don't register horses when they should because papers don't matter to them. That kind of thinking will perpetuate genetic disorders and how are you going to track if your grade has one or not? I actually find it irresponsible.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I didn't read all of the posts so I apologize if I'm repeating someone else. I'm also wiped out so hopefully this makes sense! 

I look at it the same way as with mutt dogs vs registered dogs. 

With a registered animal you know it's history and what it is *likely* to excel at. Depending on the registry you will also have a pretty good idea of what genetic diseases the animal is clear of or has a chance of inheriting. 

Does it necessarily mean that a registered horse is better at some event (barrels, racing, cows, jumping, dressage, etc, blah, blah) than a grade horse? No. But it does increase the odds that you'll get a horse that excels at what you want it to and to some people that is very important. Generally those are the people that are willing to pay more money for a registered animal because they are getting an animal for a specific purpose. Think of competitive racing, barrels, jumping, dressage, cows, etc.. If you are trying to be* competitive* in a particular sport/activity does it not make sense to get an animal that has a better chance at excelling at that particular activity?

As for the disease thing, again you are getting an animal whose background you know, which allows you to lessen the chance that you'll have to deal with a genetic disease. It doesn't get rid of the chance, but it does provide you with knowledge of the animal's genetics which can be a very useful thing. Are some registered animals more prone to certain diseases or structural deficiencies? Of course, we can all come up with a million examples of registered horses that are not structurally sound. Registering doesn't guarantee you ANYTHING, it merely increases the odds that you'll get a certain thing. Again, to some people that's important and they're willing to pay for it.

Those are the reasons most people buy a registered animal. Either they have a need/wish to be competitive in a particular sport or they want to reduce their risk of genetic disease. 

As for grades/mutts I have absolutely no problem with them. I've seen many that excel at their chosen discipline, however their owner/buyer more than likely had no inkling of whether or not that animal would excel (unless it was already trained) at their discipline until it was trained. That is why some people choose to pay for a registered animal. It has nothing to do with a grade being worse/better than a registered animal in general, it just means that the registered animal generally has a better chance at doing what the owner wants it to do.


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## yadlim (Feb 2, 2012)

To answer someone's question, a grade horse is one without registration papers on hand. This could be a horse who was registered, but the papers were lost. Or it could be a horse that could have been registered, but for whatever reason wasn't. Or it could be a mutt. The problem is, as a buyer, you have no way to know for sure which of the above is true.

In my experience, a top registered horse is a top horse. There is a reason they cost $10,000 and up - they are worht it (or you are getting scammed). They usually all look almost exactly the same, have the same personality, and are just cookie-cutter images of each other - and worth every cent.

A top grade horse will also usually cost big $$$. There is one at my boarding stable that cost $4,000.

Where things get iffy is in the mid to low range of quality. You can have a low quality horse that is registered. It just means you know their lienage. That does not make them any better quality. 

You can have a low quality grade horse. 

In the mid range of quality, the range that most pleasure riders (I think) tend to buy in, papers don't matter much unless you are going to shows. I don't think that low and most mid-quality horses should be bred no matter if grade or registered. There are just too many others out there to choose from.

Now, if you are breeding for a purpose with a specific somethign in mind that you will get from horse A crossed with horse B, I am good with that. In this economy, I would really presume you plan to keep that foal.

My daughter's new filly is of upper mid-level quality. Right now she is 'grade' because the breeder has not handed me the papers to get her registered - but that will happen by this spring. She is going to be bred twice (as a four year old and again at five)... as per our contract. This filly who should have been in the $3,000 to $5,000 range, both times will be to the same stallion. The breeder gets one foal, we get one. (Which is how I know we will eventually get her papers - the breeder does not want grade offspring from her $15,000 stallion).

Do I think she is worth breeding? Um, she's a bit short for my tastes, but well within breed standards. Do I think the stallion is worth breedign to??? OMG YES! 

In 40+ years of owning horses, these will be the first foals that were planned. It will be interesting. (I have purchased a grade mare in foal before - oh what an ugly horse that turned out to be. And had a stable owner feel sorry for my two year old stallion and turn him out with my mare once two weeks before he was scheduled to be gelded... that one was ugly too - never cross a Lipizanner with a Saddlebred!!!!)


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

GotaDunQH said:


> So I don't understand why someone would begrudge me for wanting a registered horse and the fact that I find importance in it. I'm serious about my showing, and for every AQHA point I get at a show....means a payback through the Incentive Fund every year...cold hard cash. And those points make that horse more valuable.
> 
> What I find scary with grades is that genetic disorders have infiltrated cross breds and grades. And it's because a grade or unregistered horse was crossed somewhere down the line with an animal with a genetic disorder; backyard breeding, people that don't register horses when they should because papers don't matter to them. That kind of thinking will perpetuate genetic disorders and how are you going to track if your grade has one or not? I actually find it irresponsible.


My point exactly...If someone wants to own and show a grade, by all means go for it! But don't knock me because I have high standards and would rather pay more for a registered horse for my personal reasons..I'm seriously running barrels and if I ever decide to run my QHs in AQHA shows I can, and I can take my horses to Congress and compete there...No grade can do that..


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## Sinister (Nov 28, 2011)

GotaDunQH said:


> All of my registered horses have been healthy and lived into their 20's. It has nothing to do with being grade or registered...it's has to do with the horse itself.
> 
> The second bold....more expensive registered horses are expensive for a reason; their bloodlines and their performance. In my show world, a $200 horse is not going to beat a $10K horse, it just doesn't happen.


I didn't say that they couldn't live as long? :-| I said that grade horses are more hardy, and a lot of people [even ones with registered horses] would agree with me. A lot of registered have health problems, some as simple as allergies or colic..I've seen so many Warmbloods/Sport horses with allergies and some were so severe that they needed shots every week to control it during the spring/change of seasons. I'm not saying they're all like that, but that's my experience with registered horse.

Maybe in your world that doesn't happen because you show in breed western shows. But I've seen $500 grade horses beat $6000+ horses. But maybe we have better grade horses up here. 



> I may have a diamond, ruby, emerald, any other precious stone, but I know what I'm getting...and I can shine that stone up and put it in a nice setting and make beautiful jewelry, while some may not like or be able to afford the nice jewelry, there is a demand for that jewelry none the less for those that DO want to have real diamonds...A grade horse may just be the mud that sits around those precious stones, or it may be a cubic zirconia..Looks like a diamond, may feel like a diamond..But it sure isn't a diamond and won't ever make that standard.


I'm perfectly happy with my rocks, and when I shine them up **** do they look purrrdy. :wink:



> And that may be true for some grade horses, but not all...I've seen a grade horses that don't make it into their second year before becoming so lame that they can't even live a nice live and have to be PTS...It can happen to ANY horse, registered, grade, this breed or that breed...No two horses are alike..


Exactly what I was getting at. A horse is a horse no matter the papers or the breeding. They are all the same thing. 



> Your posts are coming across as defensive of grade horses and not being open minded when it comes to the reasons why so many people would rather have a registered horse...Like I said before, it all comes down to personal preference..You don't have to understand why I want to pay more for a registered horse..I respect and understand why you'd like to pay less and have a grade horse...To each their own, but be respectful of the "other side" of the horse world...What you don't know will hurt you a lot more than sticking to one thing and being close minded..


Why would I be getting defensive over grade horses? I have an amazing registered horse QH that I would never trade for anything, and I had a QH that I would literally give anything to have back. And you would classify your diamond comment as respectful to grade horse owners? Saying your horse is better because of it papers.


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## yadlim (Feb 2, 2012)

GotaDunQH said:


> What I find scary with grades is that genetic disorders have infiltrated cross breds and grades. And it's because a grade or unregistered horse was crossed somewhere down the line with an animal with a genetic disorder; backyard breeding, people that don't register horses when they should because papers don't matter to them. That kind of thinking will perpetuate genetic disorders and how are you going to track if your grade has one or not? I actually find it irresponsible.


There are a lot of very lousy breeders out there who are breeding bad grade animals. 

That said, the worse case I have ever seen in a genetic disorder came from a $10,000 draft foal I bought... Luckily there was a guaranteed healthy clause in the contract. There are more genetic disorders in the purebloods than in the mutts due to recessive genes being concentrated in certain bloodlines. The breeder of the above foal had paid $25,000 to have this mare imported from England, so we were not talking low quality stock. 

Known bloodlines does not mean the horse is healthier.

As for prefering registered horses, kewl. If the breeder is good and has been working towards a goal, the buyer should be able to go and pick their favorite horse and know exactly what they are getting. I have bought babies that were from the above types of breeders and gotten exactly what I wanted. 

I have also been known to pick up the mutt grade and rolled the dice on occasion... sometimes I have gotten lucky, and sometimes had to run screaming away!!

As long as you like what you got, YEAH!!!!


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Sinister said:


> I didn't say that they couldn't live as long? :-| I said that grade horses are more hardy, and a lot of people [even ones with registered horses] would agree with me. A lot of registered have health problems, some as simple as allergies or colic..I've seen so many Warmbloods/Sport horses with allergies and some were so severe that they needed shots every week to control it during the spring/change of seasons. I'm not saying they're all like that, but that's my experience with registered horse.


Then respectfully I would say that you need to take a little more time to look into the "registered" world and learn a few more things..Also, saying a horse is more "hardy" than another usually insinuates that they are healthier and live longer.





Sinister said:


> Maybe in your world that doesn't happen because you show in breed western shows. But I've seen $500 grade horses beat $6000+ horses. But maybe we have better grade horses up here.


I don't show in her "world" even though I'm very familiar with it and I know that unless that $6,000 horse knocks a barrel over (highly unlikely), that the $500 horse has a slim to none chance of ever beating that $6000 horse..





Sinister said:


> I'm perfectly happy with my rocks, and when I shine them up **** do they look purrrdy. :wink:


And that's good and fine, but don't blame me or say I'm wrong for wanting diamonds instead.





Sinister said:


> Exactly what I was getting at. A horse is a horse no matter the papers or the breeding. They are all the same thing.


No, you have taken that the wrong, and I'm not going to explain it again...To each their own. You can live with that...





Sinister said:


> Why would I be getting defensive over grade horses? I have an amazing registered horse QH that I would never trade for anything, and I had a QH that I would literally give anything to have back. And you would classify your diamond comment as respectful to grade horse owners? Saying your horse is better because of it papers.


I'm saying you're just keeping the argument going saying the same thing over and over again.."Grades! They're #1, go team!"...and not listening to other's opinions and even considering and respecting those opinions...Yes, I consider my horse superior IN CERTAIN WAYS because she is proven, has nice bloodlines, and has "papers"....and no, I don't think my coment was disrespectful. It was the truth..What about it isn't true??




yadlim said:


> As long as you like what you got, YEAH!!!!


EXACTLY!!!


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I honestly don't know where all these crappy, broken down, sickly registered horses are, but if I ever find out I'm not going there! :shock:

I've had horses for 34 years. _All_ of mine have been registered._ None_ have had major health problems. I don't think I'm particularly lucky, or that my horses have all been those 'rare' purebreds who don't drop over dead at the slightest thing. 

Grades can be hardy, but so can purebreds. Grades can also be horrible, ill conformed trainwrecks, and so can purebreds. Doesn't mean one is better or healthier than the other, although that's_ exactly_ what I'm hearing some of the grade owners saying.

Even with registration, you have to _know_ what you're looking for. Bloodlines mean nothing if the horse is a walking disaster, either physically or mentally. Give those of us who prefer registered horses some credit;_ very_ few people, other than noobs or those with a high level of delusion, think that registration means a horse is better just _because_ it's registered.


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## Sinister (Nov 28, 2011)

GotaDunQH said:


> And your post is awesome as well! I don't begrudge ANYONE for wanting or liking grades. I just don't think grades should be bred, but that's just my opinion.
> 
> So I don't understand why someone would begrudge me for wanting a registered horse and the fact that I find importance in it. I'm serious about my showing, and for every AQHA point I get at a show....means a payback through the Incentive Fund every year...cold hard cash. And those points make that horse more valuable.
> 
> What I find scary with grades is that genetic disorders have infiltrated cross breds and grades. And it's because a grade or unregistered horse was crossed somewhere down the line with an animal with a genetic disorder; backyard breeding, people that don't register horses when they should because papers don't matter to them. That kind of thinking will perpetuate genetic disorders and how are you going to track if your grade has one or not? I actually find it irresponsible.


If there weren't any grade horses bred then all those registered horses would become cheaper since those would be the only ones to choose from.



> Does it necessarily mean that a registered horse is better at some event (barrels, racing, cows, jumping, dressage, etc, blah, blah) than a grade horse? No. But it does increase the odds that you'll get a horse that excels at what you want it to and to some people that is very important. Generally those are the people that are willing to pay more money for a registered animal because they are getting an animal for a specific purpose. Think of competitive racing, barrels, jumping, dressage, cows, etc.. If you are trying to be* competitive* in a particular sport/activity does it not make sense to get an animal that has a better chance at excelling at that particular activity?


For example a group of girls that are competitive and have grade horses; I know girls that barrel race and go to MeBHA and NBHA. Both girls qualified and went to Nationals last year and placed very well with they're "backyard" horses. One has Arabian in it and one they have no clue what he could be. Then I know plenty of girls in the eventing world from my old barn that have gone up to and past 2nd level with they're grade ponies. 

Here's a one's story [in Ashley's words not mine!]:
♥Dixie♥
This is MY first horse, she was a rescue from a local Auction house. We just outbid the "meat guy", we got her for $135. She's a 2002, 13.3hh Unknow breed mare. When I got her, in 2005, she was ferial, never had a halter on, malnourished, had mange in het tail & mane, and lice! She was a mess. Shortly after we got her she got really sick with Shipping Fever. So giving 3 shots a day to a completley ferral horse was NOT easy. After she was not sick we started working with her, she was CRAZY! We ended up taking her to my instructors farm for a month to see what she thought. A month turned into 2 1/2 years. We started showing in local equitation shows and 2006, then to try out eventing in 2007. She was doing great. After lots of schooling and training for Dixie and I both, in 2008 we evented BN! I couldn't belive how well she was doing! We won you divison @ the year end awards for Beg. Novice. I was proud of us! Later in 2008 we finally brought her home. 2009 was one of our big years! We evented Novice (My first time @ that level same with Dixie) she doing crazy good. My mom and I decided that we were going to try a USEA event. In September we went to King Oak Horse Trials in MA. I had NO clue what to expect. We got a 29 in dressage, double clear stadium AND cross country! WE WON! It didn't sink it that I won my FIRST USEA event till we got home! Dixie was SO great. We won our division once again in the Novice division, and got the figure trophy for the lowest scoring Jr. @ Snowfields HTS. My mind was blown! In 2010 we were going to stick to dressage, but I was TOTALLY hooked on eventing USEA. We did UNH, Huntinton, & Valinor in 2010. My mom and I were looking on the USEA site and Dixie and I had qualified for American Eventing Championships! I was SO surprized I didn't know what to think! So we went! SHE WAS GREAT!!!!! We got eliminated in Stadium (long story) But after a great dressage and double clear cross country I was so happy! She did very well for trailering from Maine to Georgia! We have the best bond I've ever had with a horse ♥ We've both come a long way, mentally and physically. I love her so much ♥ She has brought me so far with my experience in the TRAINING HORSES world. She is my best friend. She will never be for sale EVER. She got her bronze, silver, and gold medal for USEA Novice. For 2011 we are going to work toward our FEI pony goal  If i had to live in a card board box, there would be a BIG one for Dixie ♥

And a picture from them in Georgia









And they had an article in an eventing magazine [can't remember what one] about their struggle and success. I'm sure someone will be able to find it on the internet somewhere if they wanted to.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Sinister said:


> If there weren't any grade horses bred then all those registered horses would become cheaper since those would be the only ones to choose from.


Then everyone could have precious stones!! :wink:



Sinister said:


> For example a group of girls that are competitive and have grade horses; I know girls that barrel race and go to MeBHA and NBHA. Both girls qualified and went to Nationals last year and placed very well with they're "backyard" horses. One has Arabian in it and one they have no clue what he could be. Then I know plenty of girls in the eventing world from my old barn that have gone up to and past 2nd level with they're grade ponies.
> 
> Here's a one's story [in Ashley's words not mine!]:
> ♥Dixie♥
> ...


I bet all of that training and lesson took a LOT of money to get that team where they are..and that doesn't even start on the entry fees, hauling costs, show clothing, horse showing needs, expensive saddles and tack, fake tails, supplements, feeds...You're not going the right way on proving that a "backyard" horse is better...That girl's family spent a TON of money on that team before they got to the point where they are now and winning big things...You can put a TON of money into a grade horse and turn it into something great like they did and everyday that bill gets bigger..but that wouldn't back up your point that "cheap grade horses are better"..Ohhh no..once they started paying for all of the training, lessons, and showing costs..That horse's price went up to one of a registered horse...and that's ONE team. You're saying that all backyard grades can be better than registered horses. You're argument is falling flat.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Sinister said:


> If there weren't any grade horses bred then all those registered horses would become cheaper since those would be the only ones to choose from.


What? LOL, that makes absolutely no sense. A top quality registered horse will STILL be worth the same price tag, with or without grade horses. It just means that someone with $300 to spend is not going to find a horse. 

And back to the hardy....please, like I said before....it's on a case by case basis with each horse. ALL OF MY registered horses have been "hardy" as you call it.


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## Sinister (Nov 28, 2011)

DrumRunner said:


> Then everyone could have precious stones!! :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> I bet all of that training and lesson took a LOT of money to get that team where they are..and that doesn't even start on the entry fees, hauling costs, show clothing, horse showing needs, expensive saddles and tack, fake tails, supplements, feeds...You're not going the right way on proving that a "backyard" horse is better...That girl's family spent a TON of money on that team before they got to the point where they are now and winning big things...You can put a TON of money into a grade horse and turn it into something great like they did..but that wouldn't back up your point that "cheap grade horses are better"..Ohhh no..once they started paying for all of the training, lessons, and showing costs..That horse's price went up to one of a registered horse...and that's ONE team. You're saying that all backyard grades can be better than registered horses. You're argument is falling flat.


So a registered horse trains himself now? And pays for his entry fee, clothing fees, ect now too? Maybe I really should sell all my grade horses and keep the ones that are registered and can be registered instead since they poop money. :wink:

And I gave examples of 3 teams, I can give more if you'd like them. 



> What? LOL, that makes absolutely no sense. A top quality registered horse will STILL be worth the same price tag, with or without grade horses. It just means that someone with $300 to spend is not going to find a horse.
> 
> And back to the hardy....please, like I said before....it's on a case by case basis with each horse. ALL OF MY registered horses have been "hardy" as you call it.


It's like farming, when all the farmers make just corn and not beans then the price of corn goes down and the price of beans go up because of the quantity. If you have an over load of one thing the price of it will go down if something is more rare then the price goes up.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

yadlim said:


> There are a lot of very lousy breeders out there who are breeding bad grade animals.
> 
> *That said, the worse case I have ever seen in a genetic disorder came from a $10,000 draft foal I bought... Luckily there was a guaranteed healthy clause in the contract. There are more genetic disorders in the purebloods than in the mutts due to recessive genes being concentrated in certain bloodlines. The breeder of the above foal had paid $25,000 to have this mare imported from England, so we were not talking low quality stock. *
> 
> ...


But you know from those bloodlines (as in Paints, Apps, QH's) if one of the animals had a genetic disorder....and I'll use HYPP as an example. If the horse has Impressive on the papers, you know there's a chance a positive horse will be in that bloodline, so you get your horse tested if it was not tested by a previous owner or marked on the papers. Buying a grade who's bloodline you can't follow...you don't have that knowledge. That's the point I was trying to make. Look at all the genetic disorders out there: HYPP, GBED, HERDA, PSSM, SCID, LWO and so on. How many grades, crossbreds, mutts and unregistered animals could have one.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Sinister said:


> So a registered horse trains himself now? And pays for his entry fee, clothing fees, ect now too? Maybe I really should sell all my grade horses and keep the ones that are registered and can be registered instead since they poop money. :wink:


Laugh!! Well don't you love inserting comments that no one posted? Where did I say they did?? No where...but the horse you just posted isn't just a "cheap backyard grade" horse like you're trying to make it...

and please if you would like to provide more cases, go right ahead...but this time actually find a "cheap backyard breeder grade" horse like this great cheap horse you speak of...Not a grade that someone has put $10,000 or more into..


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Sinister said:


> So a registered horse trains himself now? And pays for his entry fee, clothing fees, ect now too? Maybe I really should sell all my grade horses and keep the ones that are registered and can be registered instead since they poop money. :wink:
> 
> And I gave examples of 3 teams, I can give more if you'd like them.
> 
> ...


You missed by point; the top quality horses that are trained well and winning will still hold their value. Even though the economy has been in the toilet when it comes to the horse market, the top quality animals are STILL selling for top prices.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

my grade gelding is by far one of the best horses i have ever ridden/trained/owned.

personally i dont get the registered thing...yeah i understand bloodlines, the integrity of the breed, and i love me some QH's but honestly for me its a horse by horse basis. you could have a registered horse with some of the best bloodlines and it could be completely worthless. maybe it has bad confo, maybe it isnt suitable for one discipline or another....oh wait you have those grade horses like that too. yeah registered has more opportunities sometimes, breed shows etc but i would take my grade colt Charlie over the best bred registered horse any day....

not to say that will last. someday down the line i may find the best Registered horse that could even beat charlie out for my #1.

but yeah sorry for that rant, but to me i judge *on the horse, not the papers.*


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## Sinister (Nov 28, 2011)

DrumRunner said:


> Where did I say they didn't?? No where...but the horse you just posted isn't just a "cheap backyard grade" horse like you're trying to make it...
> 
> and please if you would like to provide more cases, go right ahead...but this time actually find a "cheap backyard breeder grade" horse like this great cheap horse you speak of...Not a grade that someone has put $10,000 or more into..


You said it right here: "*I bet all of that training and lesson took a LOT of money* to get that team where they are..and *that doesn't even start on the entry fees, hauling costs, show clothing, horse showing needs, expensive saddles and tack, fake tails, supplements, feeds.*..You're not going the right way on proving that a "backyard" horse is better...That girl's family spent a TON of money on that team before they got to the point where they are now and winning big things...*You can put a TON of money into a grade horse and turn it into something great like they did*..but that wouldn't back up your point that "cheap grade horses are better"..Ohhh no..*once they started paying for all of the training, lessons, and showing costs..That horse's price went up to one of a registered horse...*"

You still have to pay for the same amount of training for a registered horse unless you train it yourself. Even with a registered horse you pay for hauling, entry fees, show clothes, fake tails, supplements, tack. Having a registered horse doesn't change the those facts.
Exactly what I was trying to tell you [everyone] a grade can be just as amazing as a registered horse if you put time into it. 

Here's another example. This girl bought this horse for cheap and trained him herself. They have no clue of his breeding or past. He went to Nationals last year and did very well. You can probably find videos online somewhere.









And another example, the girl above's friend that has a similar story with her Arab x mare.


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## Sinister (Nov 28, 2011)

GotaDunQH said:


> You missed by point; the top quality horses that are trained well and winning will still hold their value. Even though the economy has been in the toilet when it comes to the horse market, the top quality animals are STILL selling for top prices.


And you're missing my point. The prices still dropped even though they are still classified as expensive.


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## SayiWont (Mar 17, 2009)

My parents and I have owned/rescued at least 30 horses in my lifetime. We have only owned maybe 3 registered horses, 2 of which we own now. The rest have been grade horses. Just because the horse is a grade horse doesn't mean it is sickly, useless, and a waste of time. *Some of the best horses I have owned were grade. Notice I said grade, not mutt. Those are two different things entirely.*

The best horse I have ever owned was a grade Quarter Horse mare (Justice) that we rescued and; therefore, knew nothing about her past. She lived to be 36 years old with no health problems that are related to being a grade horse. She had foundered, got cast, and ended up dying of natural causes. *You can't even begin to try to tell me she got founder and died because she was a grade horse. A lot of illnesses have NOTHING to do with being registered or not.*

Papers only show you so much. They don't automatically prevent the horse from getting other, not breed-related, illnesses. Papers don't guarentee that you have a safe, sane, rideable horse with no problems. I am not saying anything against the thought of owning registered horses, just the snobby people that think if you don't own grade you can't be any good. *Around here people ask for an arm, a leg, and your first-born for a registered horse. The vast majority of these registered horses are poorer quality than most of the grade horses here.*

I have personally seen $500 grade horses beat $5,000 registered horses. It all depends on the individual horse, not the particular breeding or if they are registered. *Knowing that a horse's ancestors did amazing and won in a particular discipline doesn't set it in stone that the horse will excel in it. Every horse is different, no specific bloodlines or breeding is going to change that.*

When I look for a horse I look at the horse as a individual, not just another piece of a genealogical puzzle. If the horse is sane, rideable, and not a conformational train wreck; who cares if it is registered or not? *You can't ride papers!*


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## Sinister (Nov 28, 2011)

SayiWont said:


> My parents and I have owned/rescued at least 30 horses in my lifetime. We have only owned maybe 3 registered horses, 2 of which we own now. The rest have been grade horses. Just because the horse is a grade horse doesn't mean it is sickly, useless, and a waste of time. *Some of the best horses I have owned were grade. Notice I said grade, not mutt. Those are two different things entirely.*
> 
> The best horse I have ever owned was a grade Quarter Horse mare (Justice) that we rescued and; therefore, knew nothing about her past. She lived to be 36 years old with no health problems that are related to being a grade horse. She had foundered, got cast, and ended up dying of natural causes. *You can't even begin to try to tell me she got founder and died because she was a grade horse. A lot of illnesses have NOTHING to do with being registered or not.*
> 
> ...


What I've been trying to say but put way more sophisticated!


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Sinister said:


> You still have to pay for the same amount of training for a registered horse unless you train it yourself. Even with a registered horse you pay for hauling, entry fees, show clothes, fake tails, supplements, tack. Having a registered horse doesn't change the those facts.
> Exactly what I was trying to tell you [everyone] a grade can be just as amazing as a registered horse if you put time into it.



You are *completely* missing or not wanting to see my point..Yes, I spend all of that on my registered horses, as does ANY competitive rider..I buy the registered horse, pay for the training, hauling costs..the whole deal. I *NEVER* said I didn't..Where you got that from I have NO idea..

You are trying to say that you can buy a *cheap *grade and put in on a trailer and head to a show..because they're "*cheaper*" than registered horses...No, wrong, it's NOT a "*cheap*" grade anymore when you put $10,000 in it in training...BIG difference in a "*cheap*" grade you bought and put a TON of money, than a grade you get at an auction and expect to go win an open show with the next weekend. 

So explain to me how that is having a "*cheap*" grade when you go and put $10,000 in it? That would be just as much, if not more, as a registered horse, but no, you don't want to spend a lot of money on a registered horse... That makes ZERO sense in your argument.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Sinister, I think you're missing the point of my post. I did not once say that it is impossible to have a grade horse kick *** competitively, I said


> Does it necessarily mean that a registered horse is better at some event (barrels, racing, cows, jumping, dressage, etc, blah, blah) than a grade horse? No. But it does increase the odds that you'll get a horse that excels at what you want it to and to some people that is very important. Generally those are the people that are willing to pay more money for a registered animal because they are getting an animal for a specific purpose. Think of competitive racing, barrels, jumping, dressage, cows, etc.. If you are trying to be competitive in a particular sport/activity does it not make sense to get an animal that has a better chance at excelling at that particular activity?


By getting a registered horse from a breed/lines that is known for excelling at your particular discipline you are increasing the odds that you will get an animal that can compete at higher levels successfully. You aren't guaranteeing it. Just increasing the odds. Can you really not see that you have a better _*chance*_ of being sucessful at say, cutting, if you buy a horse from cutting lines than if you go to a backyard breeder and pick up some random grade from someone? I'm not saying that grades cannot be successful, there are plenty of them that are, but it does increase the _*odds*_ of getting what you want if you buy from "proven" lines. 

That's what it's about for some people. They want to lessen their chances of getting a horse that doesn't suit their needs. Of course some horses from cutting lines aren't going to excel at it and of course there are going to be grades that do great at it. But the point still stands that you ARE increasing your ODDS if you buy from proven stock for cutting. 

Look. I have a registered QH and a grade (welsh) mare. They're both great horses and I wouldn't trade either of them for anything, but they have different abilities and attributes due to their breeding. I had a better idea right off the bat at the kind of things Soda would do well at as opposed to Lily where it's been a process of learning her abilities. I don't know what her lines are or what her breeding is or even if she's desended from some stud with a awful disease (maybe that's why she isn't registered). With Soda I know his lines and his background. There are few hidden factors and it gives me a base from which to start. It doesn't mean he's a better horse (seriously he's a complete twit sometimes) than Lily, it just means I knew more about his possible abilities as soon as I saw his papers/breed.

ETA - If it helps, think of it like dogs. So I'm a waterfowl hunter... That means I want a dog that has a great retrieving instinct, waterproof coat, and an instinctive urge to obey me and get the bird. I can go to the pound and pick up a random dog and hope that it'll do what I want or I can buy a breed that is proven in the waterfowl world or I can really go wild and get a purebred that isn't from waterfowling lines. All three could go any which way. The purebred waterfowler could have no urge for it, the mutt might be great, and the purebred non-waterfowler could find it's life's calling.. Heck I have a gun shy lab, he hunts great but is scared of guns. The point is by buying a dog whose bloodlines and breed attributes match my wants/needs in a dog I _*increase the odds that we'll both be happy and do well.*_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

DrumRunner said:


> ...So explain to me how that is having a "*cheap*" grade when you go and put $10,000 in it? That would be just as much, if not more, as a registered horse, but no, you don't want to spend a lot of money on a registered horse... That makes ZERO sense in your argument.


I think all of us understand that buying a horse is the cheapest thing you ever do with a horse. Once you own one, you start shoveling cash into its mouth - that's why green stuff comes out the back!

Grade or registered, once they hit the ground, they have a certain amount of physical ability & a certain innate temperament. That can be improved with training. A registered horse gives you bloodlines (if you care). For many purposes, it doesn't matter. For others, it does.

Would I breed a grade horse? Well, both of my grades are geldings, so I don't have a stake in the fight. (But that gives me a great idea for a new thread - "Should I breed my gelding?") But I would be willing to breed a grade horse, IF it had done something special that made it worth while to do so. If I owned a grade mare that could work cattle like magic, or a grade mare that could run like the wind...that would qualify. 

The problem comes when people breed fugly horses with fugly attitudes to other fugly horses with fugly attitudes because it is cheap, or because they KNOW the outcome will be the best of both - when too often, it is the worst that comes out.

Trooper is a grade gelding. He is a wonderful horse for my family, but if he was a stallion...well, he'd STILL be a gelding before entering my corral. But his sire stayed a stallion because he was good at working cattle, and that is useful on a ranch...


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## Sinister (Nov 28, 2011)

DrumRunner said:


> You are *completely* missing or not wanting to see my point..Yes, I spend all of that on my registered horses, as does ANY competitive rider..I buy the registered horse, pay for the training, hauling costs..the whole deal. I *NEVER* said I didn't..Where you got that from I have NO idea..
> 
> You are trying to say that you can buy a *cheap *grade and put in on a trailer and head to a show..because they're "*cheaper*" than registered horses...No, wrong, it's NOT a "*cheap*" grade anymore when you put $10,000 in it in training...BIG difference in a "*cheap*" grade you bought and put a TON of money, than a grade you get at an auction and expect to go win an open show with the next weekend.
> 
> So explain to me how that is having a "*cheap*" grade when you go and put $10,000 in it? That would be just as much, if not more, as a registered horse, but no, you don't want to spend a lot of money on a registered horse... That makes ZERO sense in your argument.


As I never said you didn't. I pointed out that those are normal costs for a person that competes whether they have a registered horse or not. It doesn't change the fact that that pony or horse isn't some big named breed registered horse. It just adds to the cost of any horse and competer. 

No that is not what I'm saying, you have that completely wrong. *No where did I say you can load [ANY] horse up and take it to a show that weekend and win. UNLESS, it is already trained no matter it being registered or not, TRAINING IS TRAINING!* What I am trying to get across is that all horses are equal, they all need training, feed, water, love, and did I mention TRAINING? No matter what you buy for a horse grade or registered you have to put the same training and money into it.
Are you saying that when you buy a registered horse you aren't spending a _ton_ of money on it; then add on the training/boarding/care bill for that and it'll still come out to being more expensive. HORSES ARE EXPENSIVE as every single horse person knows very well! 

What your trying to say is:
$10,000 Reg. Colt + [T]raining = 10,000 + T
$50 Grade Colt + [T]raining = 50 + T
In the end you are still spending more because you're putting the same money into training that reg. colt as you are putting into that grade colt. 

Here's another fact I think you're forgetting; *you can buy a pre trained grade horse just as well as you can buy a pre trained reg. horse. *Again training is training and you can't change that. A grade horse can be bought already trained in what you want just like a reg. horse can.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

everybody is entitled to their opinions..some say grade is better some say registered. i like em both equally.
i know this may sound bad and dont rag on me for it but the easiest most relatable way to say this is Race.

everybody has their prejudices. some dont like grade because they can be"cheap and bad quality" some say registered is "overpriced, and overrated." its just a matter of opinion.

you cant judge a WHOLE BREED on a select ammount of horses. you will have AMAZING grades and AMAZING registered horses....then again you will have CRAPPY grades and CRAPPY registereds too. 
the best thing to do is to be open minded until you* PERSONALLY* have experience with them....
my old trainer hated Arabs, and i was inclined to think the same way, but we got my old polish arab gelding and my friend has an arab who is the most even tempered, most reliable horse on her farm. then ive seen some pretty air-headed crazies out there to.

*judge the horse not the breed*. it depends on the temperment, training and how that horse is treated.
when you think about it some grades could get the best of both. you could have the coloring of a paint with the temperment of a QH. the confo of a QH with the tempermant of a TB it depends* on the horse*.

P.S. WHAT HORSE ISNT EXPENSIVE?! my FREE arab gelding cost us the most what with his skin cancer, special shoes and all. I spend the SAME ammount of money on my grade gelding for competition as i did with my Registered QH mare. i spend the same for feed, farrier, vet etc for both. for me its not a price its a quality. i dont look for paper (though they can be a plus) i look for *confo, temperment, willingness, quality, and what they can do best*. then i check for papers to see where to take this horse....whether its a big show, or just playing at the gymkhanas, my *REGISTERED AND GRADE* horses have done them all.


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## Sinister (Nov 28, 2011)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Can you really not see that you have a better _*chance*_ of being sucessful at say, cutting, if you buy a horse from cutting lines than if you go to a backyard breeder and pick up some random grade from someone?


Not all "backyard" breeders are know nothings. There are people out there that breed their grade mares to better their horses [and not always to a reg. stud]. If my friend were to breed her grade mare that is a proven NBHA horse to another proven GRADE stud with attributes that would improve the foal, how is that irresponsible? You're still making a better foal, just no papers.
When looking for a horse reg. or not, you still have to know what you're looking for. I could go out today and buy a Saddlebred foal, but why would I when I don't ride Saddle Seat? The same thing goes with buying any horse, you have to know what you're looking for.

What everyone doesn't understand is that I DO understand that improves your _chance_ at being successful, but it doesn't guarantee you will. When I originally posted this I wasn't talking about buying a horse from someone with no training or any show background.
I was talking about if you have two IDENTICAL horses, in conformation/training/age/color *everything* about them was the same but one was a grade and one was registered. The grade being $500 and the registered being $10,000. Why would some people choose the more expensive horse just because it's registered.



> ETA - If it helps, think of it like dogs. So I'm a waterfowl hunter... That means I want a dog that has a great retrieving instinct, waterproof coat, and an instinctive urge to obey me and get the bird. I can go to the pound and pick up a random dog and hope that it'll do what I want or I can buy a breed that is proven in the waterfowl world or I can really go wild and get a purebred that isn't from waterfowling lines. All three could go any which way. The purebred waterfowler could have no urge for it, the mutt might be great, and the purebred non-waterfowler could find it's life's calling.. Heck I have a gun shy lab, he hunts great but is scared of guns. The point is by buying a dog whose bloodlines and breed attributes match my wants/needs in a dog I _*increase the odds that we'll both be happy and do well.*_


Not changing subject, but that just reminded me of my aunt's bird dog. He's deathly afraid of water and will yelp if just a drop touches him. So much for my uncle going duck hunting. :lol:


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## Sinister (Nov 28, 2011)

Does everyone have their popcorn popped and jammies on? :wink:
This thread is turning into quite a show!


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## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

You can't ride papers.

Grade horses are just as good as registered horses.

I own three grade horses. One is a QH, purebred, but he was a 'crop-out' (or whatever the technical term is) from a QH breeding facility in Mississippi, according to his previous owners. He's greenroke and young and still a stallion at the moment, but is gentle enough for my rather inexperienced 12 year old cousin to ride.

My oher two are both TWH. I know both their bloodlines, as one of them I bred. They are purebred Walkers and are both great horses.

I've seen regstered hrses who were absolute messes and registerd horses who were great.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

who says it has to be cutting horse lines from a registered horse? or who says all grade horses dont have some breeding.

some of the grade QHs ive trained had Poco, peppy, lena, skipper W in alot of them. they just had others in em to so theyre grade....doesnt mean theyre not good. they have the bloodlines, the breeding, the know how, confo, everything they need except the paper saying they are registered....

just because a horse is registered doesnt mean it has good bloodlines, just because a horse is grade doesnt mean also that it doesnt have good bloodlines....registered horses can have horrid confo (like my mare Josie) and grades can just be the perfect package (like charlie) just because i cant take him to an AQHA show (oh wait i can they have grade classes too ;P) i can still make it to the top with him in show for his level, i could go rodeo and go to the NFR, be top in endurance rides, sorting, etc. 

yes you can potentially have more opportunities with a Registered horse but again, it depends on the horse. some horses are just going to get to a higher level in competion than others, registered and grade alike. my $200 grade colt would beat my $2000 registered QH mare, my $3000 registered paint and hes beat multiple $50,000 dollar horses. it depends on the training and the quality of the animal....not the paper saying whats what or the price/cost you spend for the horse, for competition, training, etc. my colt was trained for free because i trained him.* i still pay the exact same amount as the others with their registered horses. no i dont know his breeding, and no i have no papers for him. but he has **** good confo, and he is the SMARTEST, MOST WILLING horse i have ever had. *
*and hes beating* registerd horses....and they beat him to. The judges at schooling shows, county fairs etc arent looking at their registration papers, their looking at the horse. you arent timed on whats printed on papers, your timed on how fast your horse gets you there....


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Oh dear God, I give up before I really get in trouble..It's not even worth trying to explain something to you and you be open to the discussion without you trying to take it in five different directions and avoiding my questions. You just keep posting the same exact thing reworded..


I will say that I bought my gelding for $2000, Nikki for $3000, and Lark for WAY cheaper than anyone else would have to pay for her..and I put a ton of hard work and sweat into those horses to have them and be where I am today with them. I didn't shell out $10,000 because I don't have it. But I did save up enough to buy a registered horse and not just something at the auction because it was cute and "had potential"...I like knowing everything there is to know about my horses..Hickory is now 22 and I can tell you exactly where he came from, who started him, who finished his training, who brought hi from Texas to Ga to compete in cutting and team penning, I can tell you all of his wins, EVERYTHING about that horse..because I have his papers.....Just because you want a proven and trained registered horse doesn't mean it's going to cost you $10,000. My three together didn't cost $10,000...But I waited and saved to have those horses, not just thinking I had to go the cheap way and buy a grade, I have high standards and I stand by those standards..If a horse (registered or grade) isn't up to those standards, I don't give them a second look... But if I'm going to buy a horse and invest all of the money you throw in the big black hole when you get handed that lead rope, it's going to be a horse worth my while and something I consider great. Not just okay..


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

drumrunner im not saying registered isnt great. i love getting on AQHA and looking up my horses lineage and knowing everything about her. 
and yeah its a good investment if you can get a good registered horse thats a good as a grade for the same price. you bring up valid points and theres good and bad to each. im just saying theres times when a grade horse is in your price range along with registered horses and maybe the grade is much better quality. maybe not. *it doesnt have to be either or*...you can "ride the fence" in this particular situation. 

your right it doesnt have to be 10,20+thousands of dollars for a proven trained money winner or whatever. josie was $2000 and she was a great horse for competion. charlie cost $200 and hes beating the multi thousands of dollar horses at state level. *its the quality of the horse not the quantity of the dollar that counts.*

i can tell you exactly where josie, red, and sugar (registered horses) came from, what theyve won, what their offspring have one etc...i can also tell you where charlie came from, what hes won, where his dam came from what her lines are (shes grade too) 

dont get me wrong i LOVE registered horses i love my QH that i can trace back to the foundations and if i do breed of course im going to go for the best registered lines and that colt will be registered, if possible. to each their own. im not trying to get into a dog fight, i just dont want the grades to be written off because they dont have papers....thay can and sometimes they do....just not the big ones....

p.s. all 6 of the horses ive owned together dont even amount to 8,000 so its not a price thing with me.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Sinister said:


> Not all "backyard" breeders are know nothings. There are people out there that breed their grade mares to better their horses [and not always to a reg. stud]. If my friend were to breed her grade mare that is a proven NBHA horse to another proven GRADE stud with attributes that would improve the foal, how is that irresponsible? You're still making a better foal, just no papers.
> When looking for a horse reg. or not, you still have to know what you're looking for. I could go out today and buy a Saddlebred foal, but why would I when I don't ride Saddle Seat? The same thing goes with buying any horse, you have to know what you're looking for.
> 
> What everyone doesn't understand is that I DO understand that improves your _chance_ at being successful, but it doesn't guarantee you will. When I originally posted this I wasn't talking about buying a horse from someone with no training or any show background.
> ...



I never said that all backyard breeders are know nothings.. I apologize, I was speaking in the general sense when it came to grades. As in backyard breeder types who don't think about what they're breeding. If you're talking about purposeful grades, where the breeder is taking into consideration the background and lines of the stud/dam THAT is definitely different. I know of several breeders that produce grade horses that aren't "mutts" so to speak. 

Your question is:


> I was talking about if you have two IDENTICAL horses, in conformation/training/age/color *everything* about them was the same but one was a grade and one was registered. The grade being $500 and the registered being $10,000. Why would some people choose the more expensive horse just because it's registered.


Correct? If so, in my opinion, most people would choose the registered horse because it is easier to resell if necessary. Why are they easier to resell? Because of everything that was previously outlined. It is easier to sell a horse (or value a horse) if you can say "his/her bloodlines prove (as much as something like this can be proven) this isn't a fluke."

What breed is your uncle's bird dog? I ask because I have a lab... Who hunts really well.. But is ridiculously gun shy :lol::?, all of his sibs, parents, aunts/uncles are just fine around guns and are great hunters... Motor wants nothing to do with it. See? I have firsthand knowledge of how bloodlines don't always pan out! :lol:


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Roperchick said:


> drumrunner im not saying registered isnt great. i love getting on AQHA and looking up my horses lineage and knowing everything about her.
> and yeah its a good investment if you can get a good registered horse thats a good as a grade for the same price. you bring up valid points and theres good and bad to each. im just saying theres times when a grade horse is in your price range along with registered horses and maybe the grade is much better quality. maybe not. *it doesnt have to be either or*...you can "ride the fence" in this particular situation.
> 
> your right it doesnt have to be 10,20+thousands of dollars for a proven trained money winner or whatever. josie was $2000 and she was a great horse for competion. charlie cost $200 and hes beating the multi thousands of dollar horses at state level. *its the quality of the horse not the quantity of the dollar that counts.*
> ...



Roper, I wasn't responding to you. I actually agree with you 100%..

I posted in my other posts that it isn't about which is better, it's about personal preference and what you (general you) look for in a horse and what you are planning on doing with and expecting of said horse...If someone loves grades, that's great and I respect that...But I expect you (general you again) to respect my want for just registered horses... We do have a grade gelding and he's fantastic and I love him to death..I never said grades were bad or couldn't do what registered horses do either. They can and some can excel in their chosen discipline...To *me* though, if I was presented with two horses exact same age, training level, good conformation, and looks..one was grade and $500 the other a registered for $1500..I'm going to buy the registered horse. Just because I, *personally*, have that standard...My horses are my pride, and I want to be proud of what I have and can say that I worked my butt off to have 3 nicely bred registered horses, at 23.. Any one can go to a Saturday night livestock auction and buy a grade horse..but as I said, it's just a personal preference..I respect yours, you should respect mine. (general you again)

Sinister twisted everything I said around and made it seem like I was being a jerk and a breed snob which isn't the case...I even brought another user into one of my posts, banman, she has a great little grade mare.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

eh. to each their own.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Exactly..


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

A horse is a horse is a horse...

Coming from both side of the tracks riding both, no name, no paper ranch bred horses and top dollar cowhorses, I am going to say this....

I have rode some bred up papered horses that just won't cut it as show horses and be lucky to make a decent ranch pony.

I have rode some non papered, off the desert horses that could work a cow just as well as a good bred up papered horse that should of been show horses.

I have rode some non papered horses that were just unfit to ride.

And I rode some papered horses that were just unfit to ride.

I have had some ranch bred horses with no papers that I wouldn't be ashamed to take to town too.

With papers, you get an idea but no guarantee, and a higher resale value and a chance to show at breed and assoc. shows.

Without papers, you have a lower resale value on a equally trained horse that is papered, and may only get to show at a local level.

I like and can appreciate both, it depends on the horse and what you are using them for.


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## Sinister (Nov 28, 2011)

> I never said that all backyard breeders are know nothings.. I apologize, I was speaking in the general sense when it came to grades. As in backyard breeder types who don't think about what they're breeding. If you're talking about purposeful grades, where the breeder is taking into consideration the background and lines of the stud/dam THAT is definitely different. I know of several breeders that produce grade horses that aren't "mutts" so to speak.


Around here we don't have many "decent" registered horses; why, I don't know, not many good breeders I guess. But we have some of the best grade horses, IMO. I've owned over 10 horses so far, and I've spent around $3000 on buying them. I've had a few $800 trained "broke" horses and I've had the same quality free horses. But the best horse I've ever owned cost me $50. And right now, being old and good for nothing [she has severe arthritis and is pushing well into her 30s] little 14hh fat mare I wouldn't sell her for 50,000. She's better then any reg. horse could ever dream to be. When I was younger I wanted to have a reg. horse, that's all I wanted I didn't want a stupid worthless grade. I wanted a fancy AQH. Well I have a QH now, registered and everything. I got him free because they didn't like his color, he's a real eye sore if you know what I mean. :wink: Sorry for the ramble, got a little off track!



> What breed is your uncle's bird dog? I ask because I have a lab... Who hunts really well.. But is ridiculously gun shy :lol::???:, all of his sibs, parents, aunts/uncles are just fine around guns and are great hunters... Motor wants nothing to do with it. See? I have firsthand knowledge of how bloodlines don't always pan out!


Well they have two labs that have never done anything other then sit on the couch and watch cartoons [yes they love sponge bob! :rofl:]. But last year he decided he wanted to hunt with his dogs and they didn't want to get of the couch so he bought this year old Weimaraner puppy, paid oodles to train him with the birds and blah blah. First time he takes him hunting Silas finds a bird does his thing but once he reaches the water it's like he was a fish out of water. Guess he didn't know how to swim and just flailed around drowning himself so my uncle had to save him and ever since then wont go near water unless hes in a tub getting a shower. :-|



> Roper, I wasn't responding to you. I actually agree with you 100%..


You do realize what I'm trying to tell you is exactly what she's saying as well. Except she's better at explaining then me, shoot me I'm not good with words.


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

Not all registered horses are expensive... this is my beloved whiskey, bought her last May for 500.00, her dad is a world champion Reiner, her mother a speed bred paint mare. Because she didn't get her spot, she was basically given away... but she is registered, and so I am able to pursue a show record, and we have done well.

In the end it comes down to what you find available, and if the horse fits what you are looking for...


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Ace, she actually looks a good bit like my reining bred mare, especially her face..

What's her pedigree?


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

She is Mayanna Gun... Her dad is The Big Gun, by Colonels Smokingun... her mom is Yucca Que Duchess by Easy Review who is by Smooth N Easy an APHA Champion sire....

She is the nicest horse I have ever owned, and I am so thankful I found her... she is the type that makes riding fun, practicing exciting, and the showring a thrill


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Nice mare Ace.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

She's really nice, love her looks too..

My mare is a granddaughter of Reminic (I'm not even going to try to write all about him on here) and the great granddaught of Kind Fritz (AQHA Champion, ROM Cutting , NRCHA Hall of Fame, NCHA LTE $81, 100% Foundation) Then on her dam's side she goes back to Jet Deck and Bold Ruler...She's definitely set up for speed and stopping..

Laugh..Nikki is on the left...Excuse the Fatty..


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

thanks... she's a keeper! When I got her she hadn't been started... like she wasn't worth it... she's very smart and tries hard, so we have come a long way in a short time...

In the end, no matter if a horse is registered or not, if they don't have a marketable talent, they are in trouble in this economy... so we as owners have to protect our horses future by giving them that... a grade horse or registered horse that can do a job well will always find a home... 

While I believe Whiskey will always be in my barn... it is comforting to know that if something happens to me, she has enough to offer that she'll find a home... and for considerably more than I paid for her...


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

I love your fatty, Drumrunner  ... and Nikki to.. smooth n easy is Jet Deck as well... so way,way,way back they are related


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Ace80908 said:


> I love your fatty, Drumrunner  ... and Nikki to.. smooth n easy is Jet Deck as well... so way,way,way back they are related


He is quite the character...I love him to pieces. Nikki is awesome, she's just a very nice all around and honest horse..

*rolls eyes* This is him last summer..How he stays that fat I have NO clue..He wasn't on any grain then..Just grazing, Omegatin, and half a bale of coastal hay a day between he and Nikki..


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## Country Woman (Dec 14, 2011)

I have no problem with grade horses


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## PaintCowgirl (Jan 2, 2012)

DrumRunner said:


> ..Yes, there can be the "oops" foals who just aren't what they are bred for but they are pretty rare and a good example of those "Oops" horses is *Doc Bar*, he wasn't bred for cutting at all, but he changed the cutting world forever through his offspring and amazing traits he passed on..Could he have done it without really nice mares? Probably not, the breeders paired Doc Bar with a really well bred mare to hope to pass on those traits and characteristics to their foals. Breeding is a science....but the fact is about Doc Bar, he is a registered "Oops" that failed to be what he was bred for but he turned another discipline into something amazing.
> 
> .


 
agreeeed! all of my registered horses are direct Doc Bar! he is the only blood line i will pay money for. and even so, i am extremely picky about where in the blood line and who the mares are.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

I love my grades! Personally, I don't have any desire to get into the breed-specific show circuit, and you can't ride papers! There are tons of good horses out there of mixed parentage that make great horses for any number of disciplines, with great minds and decent conformation. IMO, a decently-conformed grade horse would be suitable to meet the needs of the majority of horse owners out there (individual breed/type/color preferences notwithstanding :wink. We have one grade and one registered AQHA in the barn... the QH is a great horse, but Scout the Heinz 57 makes him look like an accident prone, high maintenance fussbudget sometimes. :lol:

If your riding goals are specifically to compete in a breed circuit, or to get to some high level of a given discipline, then a specific purebred horse will probably be a better bet since they are purposefully bred to excel at dressage, cutting, jumping, barrels, pleasure, or what-have-you. 

I'm generally not for breeding grade horses. Never say never, but 999 out of 1000 grades are not of exceptional conformation or bloodlines, and therefore don't have the basic "qualifications" to be suitable breeding stock. They might produce more horses with good minds and halfway decent confo (or they might not, especially regarding confo), but breeding grades isn't going to contribute to the quality of anything.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> I think with potential buy if you plan to re-sell later in life (and some people do, nothing wrong with it), it's usually easier to sell the papered one. Or at least a common believe is it's easier.


THAT means a registered horse will have a _Better chance of finding a good home_ if you want to/have to sell him in the future.
My (adopted) QH is the product of 2 registered QH's. I guess I could get around to sending blood in for a DNA analysis and register him in the future even though I intend to keep him for life. I've kept most of my good horses to their death, so the cost (in this economy) is not high on my 2012 list.
I've owned a number of grade horses. Good confirmation is not exclusive to pedigree, nor is athletic ability, as others have posted already. =D


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Corporal said:


> THAT means a registered horse will have a _Better chance of finding a good home_ if you want to/have to sell him in the future.
> My (adopted) QH is the product of 2 registered QH's. I guess I could get around to sending blood in for a DNA analysis and register him in the future even though I intend to keep him for life. I've kept most of my good horses to their death, so the cost (in this economy) is not high on my 2012 list.
> I've owned a number of grade horses. Good confirmation is not exclusive to pedigree, nor is athletic ability, as others have posted already. =D


Oh, I don't think that is necessarily true. It might be easier to sell a registered horse than a grade (all other things being equal), but there is no assurance it will go to a better home. Sometimes the most lowly of grades ends up in a loving home well taken care of and content, while the high priced registered horse ends up boarded, excessively stalled, and neglected - just another yuppie toy to be used when it is convenient...


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

Nothing! you just may not be 100% sure of what they are.
The palomino was my first horse, and he was grade. The blue roan is my current project. And as of right now, I'm considering her a grade (I'm still looking into her past.)


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## mystykat (Dec 4, 2011)

I have nothing against grades, nothing against papered. I don't show, I have no need for a papered horse but if possible, I would rather have a registered horse. 
That being said, having a registered horse does not mean you have a 'diamond'. It means you have a horse. Granted a horse that you can trace back, be able to find out age, info, predetermine any illnesses that could befall the horse based on the bloodlines history, enter in breed specific shows and quite possibly sell the horse for more than you would get for a grade. 
If I clicked with a horse, or it showed me that it's capable and it passes a vet exam I'm not going to pass it up, whether it is grade or registered. As long as it is priced fairly. I have no problem paying the price of a registered horse and getting a grade as long as I know I'm getting what I'm paying for. This may be harder to determine with a grade horse that you have no history on, but having no history on a horse that is grade is not always the case. There are many circumstances.
I have seen some shoddy grades, and some shoddy registered horses. And I've seen greats in both.
To each their own - and that's all there is to it. No point getting offended/defensive. But do be responsible and don't breed a grade.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Faceman I WISH that was true but as long as people will go ga ga over bloodlines and drop lineage names as if they knew them personally, the grade horse will be overlooked in favor of the registered horse.


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

I will be the first to admit, I prefer registered. Simply due to the fact of genetics and having an idea of that history. That being said, I currently own and have owned both grade and registered. When you get down to it, a horse is a horse. There's 2 horses I can think of that I absolutely hated (long stories), one reg., one grade. And my 2 all time loves are my first horse, a grade gelding, and my forever horse, an IBHA/AQHA gelding


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

PaintCowgirl said:


> agreeeed! all of my registered horses are direct Doc Bar! he is the only blood line i will pay money for. and even so, i am extremely picky about where in the blood line and who the mares are.


Exactly! I don't dislike grades at all..I just like registered horses better..That's why I think it is so nice to have registered horses, because you can do and tell so much by their bloodlines and that all fascinates me. You would love little Fatty's breeding if you are a Doc Bar fan..

Papa Hickory Doc Quarter Horse


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Corporal said:


> Faceman I WISH that was true but as long as people will go ga ga over bloodlines and drop lineage names as if they knew them personally, the grade horse will be overlooked in favor of the registered horse.


With all due respect, you missed the point of the post entirely.

To repeat myself, registration may make a horse easier to sell, but it is absolutely no assurance it will find a better home than a grade...


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

When I helped my mom sell two of her mares, it was only 9 days before the registered mare was sold. It took 2 and a half months to sell the grade mare. If the grade had papers, she would have sold within days since she had so much interest from breeders and those that wanted to show in breed shows. Sadly, even though she was a purebred QH, there was such a paper mess up involving the original owner that she couldn't be registered and AQHA wasn't able to anything since they had a bad address as the only contact information for the guy. Beautiful mare, no papers, she did find a wonderful home eventually. But, if she had been registered, she would have been sold so much faster and for more money too.


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

I've never heard anything bad about grade horses as a whole. The only thing that kind of sucks is that you don't know their bloodlines, so you have no clue what defects or illnesses they may be genetically predisposed to. 

There are plenty of grade horses that are better-looking than some crappy purebreds. It depends on the individual.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Nowadays I will only buy a registered horse. Back when I was only doing Pony Club, I had a few grades, but now that I am looking to breeding in the future, and competeing in breed shows, I only have need for registered horses.

None of my horses have been particularly expensive, even the registered ones. My best horse is a Registered Arab that I got for under $1,000 - Which is DIRT cheap here. My Stockhorses were purchased for 5,000 and under. All registered. 

I love bloodlines. I trawl the online studbook for hours following lines this way and that, looking up progeny. I could tell you by looking at most stockhorses how they are bred, and I love that. I love being able to choose stallions by knowing the type they throw, and the ability they generally throw.

Your experiences may have swayed you toward grades - Mine have swayed me to registered horses. The two grades I had were, uh, less than perfect? of course I loved them all the same. One was so nervous he could hardly think straight when ridden, and wasn't built well, and ended up going blind. The other was a brumby who was dummer than a box of rocks and threw tantrums when he didn't get his way. Neither could have done anything other than low level pony club.


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## RoosHuman (Dec 27, 2011)

Agree about the Doc Bar bloodlines... I think that one should judge horses as an individual. To me, it doesn't matter if they are registered or grade. But, I do love my Doc mare, and would love another horse with her characteristics.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Sorry if I got off topic on my first post.
If I was faced with two _identical_ horses and one was not papered and cheaper, for my purposes I would choose the grade. I 1,000% support anyone choosing otherwise if they are interested in showing and climbing specific breed ladders doing what they love with the specific horse required. But I don't feel that the papered horse is any more special than the other if they are both identical. Many, many cross breeds excel in endurance and other activities. If you can trace your QH's lines, especially racing lines, there is a TB mixed in there somewhere. All horses came from different breeds and started out as a mixed bag of tricks. It took a good eye and a savvy horse person to develop what we enjoy today.

As far as taking a grade to the top, I don't know if enthusiasts would take the time devoted to training to get a grade as far as he could go when you can take a registered horse just as far. But for me... I'm devoted to any good horse regardless of where they came from. Any and all eventing horses can develop problems and injuries due to the strain we put on their bodies. I've found FOR ME that a Quarab suits ME best doing what I love, hard trail riding. My Appendix X Foundation bred QH mare has some great trail qualities, but as she developed after years of owning her and filling out she seems to have slighter bone for her muscular build. I'd grab my heavier boned more athletic grade horse over her to do some hard riding. But my grade doesn't show her potential for reining with her sliding stops and super quick turns.

I do think it's a crap shoot when buying an _unknown_ grade colt or foal. And a good grade will probably bring less unless they are super proven for something in particular (jumping, barrel racing,...). I've seen one for sell on here that is grade and he's so well trained they are asking a hefty price. I'm glad they are holding out for it too, he deserves it! If I was in the market I'd head over there and snatch him up! I sold a stupid, unfit QH mare for $150, she initially cost $2,500 as a 2 year old. She had PERFECT bloodlines and great looks. The people flipped her and sold her for $900 as a broodmare. That horse really needed to just be PTS. Anyone looking at her feet could tell it was just a matter of time and she had NO RIGHT to become a broodmare.


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