# mud management panels vs layered gravel



## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I think that if you have hard pan or clay dirt, the only way to stop mud is for it the dirt to not get wet..lol
Seriously if there is hard pan, you would need to rip the hard pan so water can drain. 
then you would do your fill of larger gravel, and the smaller on top then maybe a heavy sand and then the liner and then the fill or top dirt. 
I do not like sand for horse pens , do to the fact of sand colic.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

stevenson said:


> I think that if you have hard pan or clay dirt, the only way to stop mud is for it the dirt to not get wet..lol
> Seriously if there is hard pan, you would need to rip the hard pan so water can drain.


Seriously, in our area of NC which is all clay, the only way not to have mud is indeed to not let it get wet ;-) I typically see only 2"-6" of soil before hitting clay here, and you would basically have to excavate and rebuild an area of land much larger than the area you care about to do any good at all in the long run. I've seen many people spend a huge amount of $$s digging out clay around barns and in arenas, laying drains, geotextile, rock, etc. with marginal results that decrease greatly over time. 

Common problems we have around here with poor draining soil...

- If you don't excavate _way beyond _the area you care about and drain water _far_ away, you are essentially digging a pond and filling it with rock, etc., and long before the end of winter that's what you will have...a gravel pond of water.

- Folks do these projects in the good weather months, e.g. spring/summer, and the results are great...until the winter. People concentrate on drainage (which you need to) but underestimate the effects of evaporation and vegetation. The longer days, more direct sun, higher temperatures, and growing plants dry the land _much more quickly_ than you think. At our place, a good rain (1") in the summer will dry out in 2-3 days, but takes more than 2 weeks in the winter. January of February are mud months here because it's cold, cloudy, and you rarely go a week without more rain... that's just life on the farm for us.

- Geotextile fabrics, at least in our area, get clogged with silt, etc. over time. I have yet to see one continue to drain well after 2 years here. Also, check with the manufacturer about what you can put on top of it. In my experience, rock "fines" will clog them in a heartbeat.

- People hate to admit defeat after spending so much money, so most folks with a big investment wind up adding tons more gravel/screenings/sand/etc every couple of years to sacrifice to the black hole of mud.

My best advice is to ignore any "general" articles about drainage and footing, find a local rancher/farmer that has _years_ of experience, and ask them what works and what doesn't _in the long run_. Providing drainage and good footing in an environment with 1000 lb animals constantly walking on it is *not* the same as doing residential/garden drainage.

...and of course, good luck, and be careful where you spend your hard earned $$s.


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## mrwithers (Jun 25, 2014)

Maybe sand is a bad idea for the top layer. What would you recommend instead?

Instead of using geotextile fabric to let water drain through it what if I use something non-permeable? This area is slightly raised up and sloped from the surrounding pasture which makes it firm enough for a human to walk on during the winter. What if I can keep it from getting wet by using a non-permeable covering and having a french drain on the uphill side? 

I'm going to use 4" crushed rock or 6" recycled concrete which interlocks for the base. I already have a road with this as the base that I drive my tractor on during the winter just fine so wouldn't that work well as a base with horses?


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I have gravel down for my driveway. I tried to drain the horse pens,.. to no avail.As paint horse mares has stated, I too will get one inch of rain that takes a week to dry. I have clay,on top of clay. Maybe you can find someone in your area whom has attempted this. I could see maybe doing french drain type around the barn foundation, but for a sacrifice area or pen, It would not be worth the expense.


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## freia (Nov 3, 2011)

We're in SW Washington. Mud is our middle name.
In the area immediately surrounding the shelter we laid down driveway fabric. Then we piled 10" 5/8-minus screenings on top of that. We have not had a mud-problem all Winter. We have it inside the shelter as well. Urine simply drains away and is gone. Easy to scoop the manure from it.

I will say that if I am slow and don't clear the manure from the screenings that are outside in the rain, the organics in the manure will try to mix with the screenings to form a special type of mud. When that has happened, I wait for it to dry, then take a rake to scrape of that organic layer and get back down to the screenings. As long as I keep the manure off of it, it has stayed very clean through the Winter.

I can't remember whether or not we put drainage rock underneath the driveway fabric. I'll check with my husband when he gets home tonight and let you know.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

PaintHorseMares said:


> My best advice is to ignore any "general" articles about drainage and footing, find a local rancher/farmer that has _years_ of experience, and ask them what works and what doesn't _in the long run_. Providing drainage and good footing in an environment with 1000 lb animals constantly walking on it is *not* the same as doing residential/garden drainage.
> 
> ...and of course, good luck, and be careful where you spend your hard earned $$s.


I am in the process of building a barn, paddock and pasture area and have been reading a TON of articles about mud management even though it hasn't even happened yet. I have to say, this is the best advice I've found yet. Often, what works in one location, does not in another. So I will take this one step further and visit some local farms to see how their paddocks are holding up this spring and then ask what they used! Thanks!


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

freia said:


> We're in SW Washington. Mud is our middle name.
> In the area immediately surrounding the shelter we laid down driveway fabric. Then we piled 10" 5/8-minus screenings on top of that. We have not had a mud-problem all Winter. We have it inside the shelter as well. Urine simply drains away and is gone. Easy to scoop the manure from it.
> 
> I will say that if I am slow and don't clear the manure from the screenings that are outside in the rain, the organics in the manure will try to mix with the screenings to form a special type of mud. When that has happened, I wait for it to dry, then take a rake to scrape of that organic layer and get back down to the screenings. As long as I keep the manure off of it, it has stayed very clean through the Winter.
> ...


We use stone screenings in our shelters (recommended by our horse ranch friends) and it has been great, also. We put 6"-8" on top of the existing dirt, sharply graded away from the shelter, and put up gutters. It packs very nicely and is never muddy. As you mentioned, it is very easy to clean and urine (winter), clover slobbers (summer), and whatever little rain makes it in will make it moist, but not muddy while it drains/dries.
Our friends use it in their riding arenas, too, but I don't know how well it would hold up in a paddock that would have a much larger amount of constant foot traffic in the rain.


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## freia (Nov 3, 2011)

Update to my post: We do not have drainage rock underneath our driveway fabric. We graded the soil so that there will be no standing water pooling up, then applied the driveway fabric, then the screenings.


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