# Horse with Hard Mouth



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

How does she fight the snaffle? Does she just refuse to stop? Does she stretch her head out? Does she stop, but not stand still?


----------



## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Yep...lots of questions.
My first thought was that former owners resorted to a bit when they should have been teaching a stop.


----------



## gssw5 (Jul 30, 2013)

Horses do not have hard mouths they have stiff bodies. 

Regardless of what bit you use training the horse to stop and stand is going to be the answer, not the bit you use. While horses do prefer different bits no bit will take the place of good training.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

_*Horses do not have hard mouths they have stiff bodies.
*_
s well said. that'why training horse to stop will involve bending, disengaging and back with a hrose that has released the brace in his neck and is lifting his shoulders , dropping his nose a bit and lifting his feet backward.

stopping willl be improved by offsetting rein contact, so one side is stronger, and if horse ignores or leans, then take the same stronger rein upward smoothly (no jerking) and ask the hrose to follow the rein around in a spiral until she stops moving her front feet and her inside hind steps under and over and you feel her hip swing over. that's disengagement. she will stop, but don't let her jsut stop leaning on the rein. get her to stop, AND come off the rein , as if she is ready to back up next. in fact, do back her up ,when stopping.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I would have said 'horses don't have hard mouths but they get hard BRAINED' due to bad training.

Time & good training will help her get over it. I'd be inclined to ditch any bit for now at least, and (starting of course, in a safe environment), train her to yield to a halter/true hackamore. The reason for this is that she will have so many emotional & reactive 'habits' around having something hurtful in her mouth, that I find 'spoilt' horses are far easier to 'retrain' without that association. Once the horse is going well in a halter, then careful reintroduction of the bit can be successful.


----------



## gssw5 (Jul 30, 2013)

OH I like that, "hard BRAINED".


----------



## amberly (Dec 16, 2012)

My horse is most defintely hard brained.. if he ahs one at all.
I'd be interested to hear some of the answers to the questions asked.

What exactly does he do when you ask to stop or slow down? How do you ask him and how does he respond?
I would work with him in the arena very often, then maybe out of the arena as well, just as a small 'test.'
Make sure you also do lots of gorundwork!

my horses can be lazy in the arena, but on the trail if I don't do groundwork, sometimes even if I do but not usually, then they don't listen as well. They are so interested in what is going on around them and what is all new to see and hear. On of my horses I had a hard time on because I was in a rush and didn't do groundwork - because of that he lsot his brain and did what he wanted some of the time.

Do gorundwork!


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Pet peeve time. Yes, a good stop is a training issue, but the right bit can help you train a good stop. If the horse stretches its head out like a racehorse with a snaffle, the snaffle will slide back in the mouth when pulled. Of course, if you have room, you can try turning the horse with a snaffle, but not everyone has room. So a snaffle can be a pee-poor bit to train a stop in if the horse knows how to defeat the snaffle.

A curb bit, once the curb strap tightens, tries to rotate around the top of the shank. That means the pressure continues to go almost perpendicular to the bars of the mouth, making it effective even if the horse stretches its head out. I find it hard to believe I'm the only person in the world who has ever felt like this on a trail:










Since I have a horse who gets excited about going fast, and our trails look like this:










a curb bit is still what I will grab for going off property. My mare will stop easily in an arena, but she knows the difference between going in circles and having a trail stretching out endlessly in front of her - and one is exciting, and the other is not.

So by all means, feel free to use a different bit - and train the horse to it if the horse hasn't used it before - and use it to keep you and your horse safe. Work on training a good stop, which IMHO ought to be very high on everyone's to do list in teaching a horse. I found this video helpful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7r82sjmFIA

Just as a band-aid is a good thing to use when you have a cut, the right bit can be helpful. Not as a "Forever measure", and not as a substitute for training, but as a tool to make the training safer and more effective.

Here is another thing to check. In a snaffle, and particularly in a single joint snaffle, pulling back when the head is stretched out can cause the cheek to become caught between the bit and the teeth, causing pain. Pain usually makes the horse go faster, so a snaffle doing the nutcracker on the horse's cheek can make things worse, not better. This is what a snaffle can be doing inside the horse's mouth:










Nope, doesn't look all that gentle to me, either! For some horses, something like a Billy Allen can be a much gentler way of cuing a stop than a snaffle.










It is NOT a substitute for training, but it can be a great training aid.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

if you use a snaffle with both sides, pulling back equally, you might have a problem. the bit is designed to be use with each side independently, and as pointed out, a horse that has a hard mouth really has a hard body, and they way to a softer body is by getting the horse to bend, poll, neck and body. a horse cannot do a ton of lateral flexing throught the body, but it can step under itself with the hind leg, and that loosens up the rest of the body IF the jaw and poll are also released. start in the jaw and go to the hind , and to get relaxation of the jaw, pulling back equally with both hands is a no go.


----------



## falling (Apr 13, 2014)

I agree with Loosie. My horse had a tendency to be hard-mouthed- not what other people would call hard mouthed as he is easy to stop, but there was no give when I asked him to turn and he'd often dump all his weight into my hands. 

I went back to basics- and have been riding in a rope halter for months now, and I am extremely happy with his quick stops, rein back, ability to turn tightly. He's just a lot more supple. I'm going to introduce the bit back in slowly. I tried him in his old bit a week ago and I was surprised by how soft he was to stop from trot and walk. As soon as I get a french link, which I hope he prefers, we will be starting up with bitted riding again.

Just a note about bits- if you are having a dentist out, ask them to tell you how low or high the roof of your horses mouth is. If you horse has a low roof, it's best to stay away from one jointed bits as they will hit the roof of the mouth. If your horse has a big tongue, get a slimmer bit. And if your horse has a lot of skin around the mouth, get a fixed snaffle


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

bsm, a pet peeve of mine is people mistaking different kinds and severities of 'pressure' with *training* to yield to ANY pressure.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Changing bits really doesn't solve the problem, it simply hides it. From Buck Brannaman, Getting a soft feel ;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUaBgdyyOqE


----------



## Princessa (Apr 10, 2014)

Thank you everyone! I knew a harsher bit was not the answer. I will try riding bitless and see how she does!

By fighting I mean tossing her head and stretching her neck out.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Changing bits can certainly help with breaking a bad habit. Snaffles excel at lateral flexing. Curb bits excel at vertical flexing. Lateral flexing relates to turns, and vertical flexing relates to speed. 

If you prefer bitless, a sidepull halter is best at lateral flexing. A mechanical hackamore is best at vertical flexing.

Pick the appropriate tool for the job. Hammers are not good with screws, and screwdrivers are not good with nails.

How do you soften a horse to leg cues? You use a sequence of cues, ending in one harsh enough to get the desired response. In some cases, that means you start with a firm squeeze, go to a kick, then use a crop. The crop is not a substitute for training. It is a TOOL for training. If the horse always has the choice between going at a softer cue of harsher, it will eventually go at the softer. You can then put an even softer cue in front of that one, and use a light squeeze, hard squeeze, kick. When your horse has decided he might as well move at a squeeze, you can go down to giving a verbal cue before the light squeeze, and eventually get the horse to go at a verbal cue with NO pressure on the sides. You teach the horse softness by giving ascending cues, and releasing at whatever level of pressure the horse responds to.

What you do NOT do when your horse won't go at a leg cue is give up, saying you are too kind and considerate of the horse to EVER use something harsh like a crop or spurs. Refusing to ever use a crop or spurs to urge a hardened horse forward is as silly as refusing to ever use a curb bit to urge a horse to stop. Use the tool that matches the training goal - and the first step in training softness is to at least get the correct response. In this case, make sure you can get a stop. Then build on that response to get softer stops. You TRAIN softness.

If the horse has never learned anything else, then you don't need to train softness. If it has, then you need to do whatever is required to get the horse into training mode.

If your circumstances allow turning a horse to slow him, fine. A snaffle works fine in that situation.

It is the release that teaches, but only if you release at the correct response. If you cannot get the correct response, you cannot give a release that teaches.

Leverage bit do not work off of pain. The horse responds at some given pressure - say 9 lbs. Why pick 9 lbs? Because a study of rein pressure found experienced dressage riders used 8 lbs of pressure for a half-halt, and 9 is easily divisible by 3 (a typical mechanical advantage used in curb bits).

The horse has no idea if that 9 lbs comes from a rider pulling with 9 lbs, or a rider pulling with 3 lbs that is then amplified 3 fold by leverage. Either way, the horse responds at 9 lbs. Horses do not compute leverage. They only know what is in their mouth. Leverage bits no more work off of pain than snaffles do. 

A curb bit, however, continues to apply pressure ON THE BARS OR TONGUE even if the horse stretches out its head. It is a function of their mechanical design to apply pressure down instead of back. To understand a curb bit or snaffle, you need to accept that curb bits ROTATE and snaffles PULL. 9 lbs against the bars will give more vertical flexion than 9 lbs against the molars. That is what makes curbs effective at curbing (restraining) a horse - *where the pressure goes, not the amount*!

However, one of the nice features of a curb is that it has to rotate in the mouth before it applies any pressure. So if you don't ride with constant pressure, and do not snatch at the reins, then the horse ALWAYS feels the bit rotating in his mouth BEFORE pressure. That makes it easy for the horse to learn to give to pressure before there is any pressure - to yield at the mouthpiece and shanks ROTATING, because he knows pressure will follow if he does not.

If you snatch the reins or balance off of them, then no bit will work right in your hands. Fix your hands. If you do not snatch on the reins, and do not balance on them, then a curb bit will not be harsh as long as you give release when the horse gives the right response - which is true of snaffles as well. I think it is obvious that a Billy Allen curb bit is less likely to result in damage than sharp edged snaffles, but either can work for training IF you give a progress of pressure and release at the right answer.

From post #1:

"_In the arena, she is fine for the most part but she does seem to fight it sometimes. On the trail, she does NOT like to stop or stand still. How can I fix this problem without using a twisted bit? Should I just use a twisted snaffle like everyone else did?_"

The previous owners taught the horse to resist the snaffle's cues. Sharp edges are a form of mechanical advantage. The pressure is applied over a smaller area, creating more pounds of pressure per square inch that if applied over a larger area. They use a mechanical advantage based on concentration rather than leverage. The best defense a horse has against that sort of thing is to see that small area of concentrated pressure goes against the molars instead of the gums.

My recommendation would be to use a mild curb design, such as a Billy Allen or low port with independent shanks. Teach the horse (if he doesn't know it already) how to give to that pressure by standing next to him on the ground, pull gently on the reins to apply pressure, and then release the moment he moves his head correctly - as in the Buck video. When you get 50 correct responses in a row to light pressure from the ground, mount up and try at a walk. When you get 100 correct responses in a row to light pressure at a walk, teach it at a trot. Work your way up in speed, and teach the horse to respond correctly to the curb bit. Then try it on a trail.

But if you don't want to, that is fine too. It worked extremely well for my horse & I. Regardless of what you decide, good luck to you and your horse.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This illustration came from an article interviewing Greg Darnall. I've penciled in some arrows to show the motion after the bit has rotated to the dotted line:








​ 
Once the curb strap tightens after 45-60 degrees of rotation (dotted lines), the top of the shank can rotate no further - but the bottom can, and in doing so it applies pressure down and back instead of strictly back. It is not about a mechanical advantage creating pain, but a mechanical design that applies the pressure on the bars and tongue even if the horse stretches out its head. :wink:


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

“He used to say…’if you can just get to the point where you can drop your reins and fold your arms in front of you and kinda just get your horse to go where you wanted him to go, then it might make sense to pick up those reins and do something with ‘em.’ “ Brannaman on Tom Dorrance -the making of a bridle horse.
The obstacle is often not the lack of response to a particular bit, bridle, hackamore, bosal or halter, but rather the horse’s lack of response to all of the other cues they should have learned along the way. Just something to consider.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

one of the most effective aspects of a curb bit is how the curb chain/strap applies a squeezing action to the undersideof the jaw. it pinches the lower jaw between the bit and the strap/chain. only, of course, when a lot of pressure is applied, but it is what really gives a curb bit it's "bite". it will either get the horse's attention so well that the horse , knowing it is coming, will respond to the slightest movement of the bit (the rotation) before the curb chain is engaged. 
OR, the hrose will respond to the pain and the sensation of being compressed on his face by running through it, by bracing all the harder.

the response depends on teaching the horse where he can find freedom, so it means your hands have to be good teachers. good at presenting the bit and it's pressure, and really good at watching for the horse's "try" and rewarding that, so the horse will seek that reward very soon, instead of waiting for you to apply more and more pressure.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Horses will run in to pain. The harder the pull the faster it goes. My Shetland was like this when a young lad rode her. I rode her in a snaffle and found out she'd turn with a mere tickling of the rein which created a slight vibration on her lip. To stop I tickled both. Once the lad grasped this he had a ton of fun with her and he developed beautiful hands. When later he got his own horse, same thing. The owner's daughter had always hauled on her mouth. The horse came here to live and the lad rode her the same as the Shetland and the transformation in the mare was incredible.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> one of the most effective aspects of a curb bit is how the curb chain/strap applies a squeezing action to the undersideof the jaw. it pinches the lower jaw between the bit and the strap/chain. only, of course, when a lot of pressure is applied, but it is what really gives a curb bit it's "bite"...OR, the hrose will respond to the pain and the sensation of being compressed on his face by running through it, by bracing all the harder.
> 
> *the response depends on teaching the horse where he can find freedom*...


 - bolding and underlining mine

I've seen no sign that a curb bit works by squeezing the jaw. I think squeezing action would have confused my horse. She would fight a cross-under style bitless bridle. If the pressure was mainly up with the curb strap, then I think she would have done a bunch of head flinging. Instead, she mostly assumed it meant to drop her head. And BTW, I also see no sign a curb bit involves poll pressure. Tried it again today, putting my fingers under the poll strap and...nothing. People say it does, but my fingertips can't feel it. I need to try that with the curb strap on the bottom sometime...

In any case, if you are pulling hard enough to cause pain (and not just discomfort), then you are screwing up. I agree that horses can and will run into pain, and it also makes sense that pain increases the fear and confusion in a horse's mind, which makes it LESS likely to obey the bit.

That is why a person needs to train their horse to a curb bit and not just slap one in and go riding. It works differently than a snaffle. That can be a very good thing because the horse may respond to it as a totally new thing instead of trying to treat it as a snaffle. But if you just toss one in and go ride, you may have a very confused and scared horse! And "confused and scared" means go faster, not slow and stop. 

However, it really didn't take much ground work or riding to teach my mare how to respond to a curb bit. 3 sessions of 45 minutes each in an arena, and she knew how to respond to make the pressure go away. Since much of our riding involves narrow trails or pavement, stopping cues that stop without any turning are good. If I lived in a place with meadows or wide dirt roads, I'd probably never use a curb bit.

It sounds like the OP will try bitless, and that is fine too. It didn't work with Mia - I tried it - but it might work with a different horse. Being open to lots of options, including both curbs and bitless, helps around horses. Curbs are no more a cure-all than bitless or snaffles. Each really depends on how it is trained and if the horse understands how to get release - or, "Find freedom"! :wink:


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

bsms said:


> Changing bits can certainly help with breaking a bad habit. Snaffles excel at lateral flexing. Curb bits excel at vertical flexing. Lateral flexing relates to turns, and vertical flexing relates to speed. ....
> How do you soften a horse to leg cues? You use a sequence of cues, ending in one harsh enough to get the desired response.


Only skimmed your post, but these bits jumped out... Yes, I definitely agree that changing the stimulus can definitely help overcome bad habits. That's why I suggest to people to go back to basics with a halter first with a horse who has 'bit problems'. But all too often I find the horse doesn't really understand how to yield well in the first place, so *teaching clearly without punishing 'wrong'* becomes more important. And I think your next comment above illustrates why bits for specific tasks aren't IMO the best, clearest thing for training - eg. I want to be able to get the horse to turn AND control his speed.:lol: 

While I absolutely believe in 'be strong enough to be effective', I find it is frequently that sort of approach (squeeze, bump, kick... KICK!!) that MAKES horses 'dull' to legs. Generally it comes down more to clarity & understanding of aids - 'upping the ante' when it's a comprehension problem is no better - or more helpful than raising your voice to someone that doesn't understand your language.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

"upping the ante' when it's a comprehension problem is no better - or more helpful than raising your voice to someone that doesn't understand your language. "

Excellent explanation loosie!


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

loosie said:


> ..I find it is frequently that sort of approach (squeeze, bump, kick... KICK!!) that MAKES horses 'dull' to legs. Generally it comes down more to clarity & understanding of aids - 'upping the ante' when it's a comprehension problem is no better - or more helpful than raising your voice to someone that doesn't understand your language.


I guess we have met very different horses. 

There is no sign this is a comprehension problem. Why? Per post #1: "In the arena, she is fine for the most part..." Horses do no comprehend the meaning of a cue in one area and then not know it in another area. Indeed, the vast majority of green broke horses know the meaning of the cue for turn and stop. That kind of defines "green broke". If the horse doesn't understand the most basic, simple cues for stop or turn, it isn't 'broken' at all.

I have not met a horse who has been dulled to leg cues by the rider upping the pressure. I've seen it from the rider skipping the leg cues, or nagging. I suspect it can also happen if the rider always insists on a full progression, since that then becomes a form of nagging. Once the horse knows to accelerate at a kiss sound, then the progression might go 'kiss, squeeze, crop'. That is because the horse knows the cues and is refusing rather than not knowing it has a softer option.

But mostly I've seen it because the rider says to himself, "This is a lazy horse so I'll start with a hard kick". If the only thing the rider cares about is a result and not training for softness, then a result is all they will get - and sometimes not even that much.

What I have also never seen is a horse who gets softer to leg cues by a rider refusing to do anything more than a light squeeze.

There are a variety of reasons why a horse may refuse to stop. If it does not know what a cue means, then you must teach the cue first. If it DOES know the meaning of the cue, then you must enforce it. You need to insist on a good faith effort to make a full stop, and then stay there until told to move. If you accept less, you will get less.

Dull horses come from lazy riders who either give the horse no lighter option or who won't enforce their will when the horse feels like doing something else. Inconsistency and sloth make a dull horse.

A horse that stretches out its head to place the snaffle against the molars instead of the bars/tongue knows the cue. It is refusing to obey it because it knows it can refuse. The nice thing about a curb bit is that it will continue to apply pressure against the bars & tongue, so that evasion simply does not work (unless the rider gives up out of habit). So a curb bit becomes a good tool to tell a horse who stretches it head out, "We WILL do it my way".

The same can be done in a snaffle if you have room to turn, or if you are quite good at working the bit in the horse's mouth. I prefer curbs because of my riding environment. It comes down to enforcing your will so the horse will obey your will even when the horse doesn't WANT to obey your will.

BTW - in the video posted of Buck, did you notice him jerking on the bit as punishment? I did. I refuse to do that with my horses, but I guess it beats tolerating a wrong answer. 

Of course, I sometimes get the feeling I'm the only person on the Internet who has a horse who doesn't always just obey me out of love, or because I'm just such an awesome leader that she always wants to do my will.

You know something else? Mia has the same problem. I've got a 13 hand mustang who sometimes either doesn't love Mia enough, or doesn't see her as a confident leader, and who therefor tries to steal her food. Mia doesn't respond by trying to boost her confidence or by trying to bond with our mustang. She just kicks his butt and goes on eating. Natural horsemanship, the horse way!


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

bsms said:


> There is no sign this is a comprehension problem. Why? Per post #1: "In the arena, she is fine for the most part..." Horses do no comprehend the meaning of a cue in one area and then not know it in another area.


I was speaking generally about your comments bsms, not specifically about OP's horse, but IMO the above is incorrect. Horses do not generalise lessons well, and IF this horse were only taught in an arena, hasn't had the lesson generalised in other settings, there is so EVERY reason to think she wouldn't 'know' it in other settings.



> I have not met a horse who has been dulled to leg cues by the rider upping the pressure.


Really? I see this not infrerquently, people getting heavy & the horse just 'bracing' against the kicking because they either have no clue what to do to 'get out of' the pressure, or in situations they're more motivated to resist(IOW they 'know', despite training, that heeding 'cues' is the Wrong Thing To Do), such as a person trying to 'kick' a horse past a 'scary' thing. I'm guessing you haven't worked with many 'spoilt' horses then. This also commonly happens with horses becoming 'hard mouthed' from bit(or bitless) use when they don't understand well enough.



> What I have also never seen is a horse who gets softer to leg cues by a rider refusing to do anything more than a light squeeze.


Haven't you? I often teach kids ponies, and a young child will not be able to kick a horse hard enough to hurt it, assuming they want to anyway, so there is no point in even going there anyway. As the horses I teach have learned to respond on the ground first, if I have a helper - someone riding the pony for eg. I will walk beside the horse, and when she asks for the horse to speed up, I will back it up from the ground if/when the horse doesn't respond to the light pressure, that it doesn't yet understand. Without help, to begin with I do also try to set it up where the horse will want to speed up when I ask anyway, and vocal cues have also been taught. When I feel more 'pressure' is needed, instead of kicking, I find the far more effective way of 'upping the ante' is to tap/slap the horse behind the saddle, with hand or crop.



> The nice thing about a curb bit is that it will continue to apply pressure against the bars & tongue, so that evasion simply does not work


If a horse stretches it's neck out to *lessen*(not evade - the pressure's still there) and resist the discomfort of bit pressure, this is because they haven't been trained well enough how to yield to the pressure(& so truly 'evade' strong 'cues'). Yes, a different shaped device that causes more pain when they do this will of course 'discourage' that particular 'wrong answer'. As I've said, I do indeed agree with getting 'as firm as necessary', but more often than not, I find it's a 'comprehension problem', so IME it's best to focus on teaching the Right Answers gently & clearly, far more so than punish the Wrong.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

“Of course, I sometimes get the feeling I'm the only person on the Internet who has a horse who doesn't always just obey me out of love, or because I'm just such an awesome leader that she always wants to do my will.”
------------------------------------------------------
So sorry to hear that .
You don’t seem to understand the concepts. It is not “love” it is willingness and there is a behavioral approach that fosters it rather than destroys it. Nothing mushy or emotional about it, it just takes patience and a re-learning of riding skills. Perhaps you would like to learn a different way of doing things where you could experience that? It is really pretty interesting. 
Start here….. http://www.csfhorses.com/


----------



## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

Princessa said:


> The two previous owners used a twisted snaffle on my horse. When I got her, I couldn't bare the thought of that being in my mouth, so I didn't want her to have to endure it. So I used a regular eggbutt snaffle. In the arena, she is fine for the most part but she does seem to fight it sometimes. On the trail, she does NOT like to stop or stand still. How can I fix this problem without using a twisted bit? Should I just use a twisted snaffle like everyone else did? Help!!





Princessa said:


> Thank you everyone! I knew a harsher bit was not the answer. I will try riding bitless and see how she does!
> 
> By fighting I mean tossing her head and stretching her neck out.


Going to a side pull is an excellent tool when a horse has learned to fight a bit. You can go back and get the horse soft in both mind and body before going back to the equipment you will be using. 

All too often horses fight the stop because they don't really have any idea how to give to two reins, let alone one. Instead of teaching a horse how to give, I often see people move to twisted snaffles, curb bits or gadgets in an effort to cover up their poor training. In addition, if you are still having trouble in the arena, which is a relatively controlled environment, the trail will be even worse. 

The correct way is to go back to square one. Before a horse can understand two reins, she must understand one. I would go back to lateral flexion to get her soft in the face and disengaging the hindquarters to get her soft through the body. 

After these are good at the standstill, go to the walk. Again, she is uneducated so you must break this down into small steps. From the walk, use your own rein to softly bend down to a stop, wait for her to relax and be content with standing then go again. During this time, don't steer as it's likely she doesn't really understand that yet either without trying to resist it. 

The more you bend to a stop, the more you will soften her up through her body, face and mind. Do this at a walk, trot and lope. This will also get her very steady at all gaits so she doesn't rush forward. Then when you go to steer pick up with one rein, at this point you will find that your steering is butter soft, why? You have already practiced your steering as a horse circles down into that stop. At this point, don't steer a specific direction, pick up and hold until she is soft and is following her nose without bulging a shoulder out the opposite direction. Then use your steering to develop straightness. If she veers left, pick up and over correct to the right, over a few rides she will get much more straight. 

Every time you steer, you will be getting her softer to one rein. Over time you can introduce a stop off of your seat ( when she's forward off your leg.) You will relax in the saddle, take a big sigh and just quit riding if you will. You will then softly bend to a stop. Over a few rides, you will have a nice little stop off your seat. 

Then you can actually introduce two reins at the standstill. You'll pick up on both reins softly and wait for her to lower her head or break at the poll. Do this until she understands that is the answer. Then pick up and hold till she starts to lift her shoulders and begin to shift her weight back. Then when she understands that, wait for a step backwards. When she understands how to back softly and correctly, you can use it to stop. 

Pick up with both reins, relax your seat and wait for a stop and break at the poll, you may even ask for a step backwards. The stopping off your seat will really help introducing that stop. When the walk is good, go to the trot, etc. 

When you have nice control in the arena, go to the trail. You will find that all of the bending to a stop, which relaxes a horse will come in handy down the trail. In this, you can bend her until she relaxes and stops of her own accord. When using two reins, it doesn't encourage relaxation and can actually dull a horse to that pressure if you are constantly in the horses mouth trying to get a stop. 

All of these little steps will ensure that you never teach her to resist pressure, only to give to it softly. 

At any point, feel free to move to a smooth snaffle.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

“Of course, I sometimes get the feeling I'm the only person on the Internet who has a horse who doesn't always just obey me out of love, or because I'm just such an awesome leader that she always wants to do my will.”
------------------------------------------------------
So sorry to hear that .
You don’t seem to understand the concepts.It is not “love” it is willingness and there is a behavioral approach that fosters it rather than destroys it.Nothing mushy or emotional about it, it just takes patience and a re-learning of riding skills.Perhaps you would like to learn a different way of doing things where you could experience that?It is really pretty interesting.
Start here….. http://www.csfhorses.com/


I think bsms was being facetious about being the only one whose horse doesn't obey out of love. 

Quote:
What I have also never seen is a horse who gets softer to leg cues by a rider refusing to do anything more than a light squeeze. 
Haven't you? I often teach kids ponies, and a young child will not be able to kick a horse hard enough to hurt it, assuming they want to anyway, so there is no point in even going there anyway. As the horses I teach have learned to respond on the ground first, if I have a helper - someone riding the pony for eg. I will walk beside the horse, and when she asks for the horse to speed up, I will back it up from the ground if/when the horse doesn't respond to the light pressure, that it doesn't yet understand. Without help, to begin with I do also try to set it up where the horse will want to speed up when I ask anyway, and vocal cues have also been taught. When I feel more 'pressure' is needed, instead of kicking, I find the far more effective way of 'upping the ante' is to tap/slap the horse behind the saddle, with hand or crop.

I totally get what bsms is saying. if the hrose ignores the soft leg, just staying with the soft leg, and refusing to do anything more (such as a crop, or as you do, someone on the ground reinforcing) will not make the hrose more responsive to a soft leg. you DO have to up the ante, but it doesn't have to be more leg, it can be something else, but it has to get a change, whatever it may be.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> I totally get what bsms is saying. if the hrose ignores the soft leg, just staying with the soft leg, and refusing to do anything more (such as a crop, or as you do, someone on the ground reinforcing) will not make the hrose more responsive to a soft leg. you DO have to up the ante, but it doesn't have to be more leg, it can be something else, but it has to get a change, whatever it may be.


I too get exactly what bsm is meaning, and as said, I agree, IMO it is sometimes necessary/unavoidable to 'ramp up' the pressure. Be as firm as necessary & all that. If you're not prepared to be effective, might as well go home. :lol: BUT I find it far more common that it's not 'firmness' that's necessary, but clarity, & BSms does appear to be advocating using harsher 'cues' over training... because he apparently believes the horse should already 'know' what is wanted, so just being 'stubborn' or such. So... I guess what I'm trying to emphasise, using your last sentence is to *change* the 'ante', rethink your approach & your assumption of what the horse 'knows', if it's not working rather than just making the same thing more punishing. 

So, again, not in the least saying getting stronger is necessarily the wrong approach, just that it often is, is not always right, there's way more to it, IME.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

my trainer often uses that term, "make a change". everything we are doing is to make a change. sometimes the horse will move forward by amped up cues, but there is no change in the horse's attitude. the hrose is moving forward physically, but has not let loose of the resistance. the really good trainer gets the change to be both a physical manifestion, such as moving forward better, or stopping more readily, but has this coupled with a change in how the hrose feels about the cues , and the action. my trainer talks alot aobut getting the horse to free up their feet, and to get them to stop without having their brain still pushing through the reins to go on. she uses lots of bending and disengaging (not holding the horse with head bent around) , to get the hrose to free up in body, and become more available to the rein. that is just exactly how I could see her dealing with a hrose with a "hard mouth".


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> the really good trainer gets the change to be both a physical manifestion, such as moving forward better, or stopping more readily, but has this coupled with a change in how the hrose feels about the cues , and the action.


Ezacly!! Or you could put it, 'get the horse's mind & his body will follow'. Trying to work solely through mechanics to make things happen tends to... let the mind wander further from you too.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Some horses are eager to obey. Trooper would be an example. If he understands, he'll obey.

Not all horses are like that. Mia & Cowboy are both horses who very much have minds of their own. Mia will stop off of seat...if she feels like it. She'll stop like a champ if she isn't excited with slack still in the reins. 

But sometimes she just doesn't feel like obeying. When I took lessons, most of the lesson horses were like that. Sometimes they didn't WANT to do what their rider cued. It had nothing to do with not understanding, and everything to do with having a will of their own. One of them would not go faster than a walk UNLESS the rider had a crop in his hand. Then a light squeeze would get a shift in gears. Why? Because he then knew the rider could raise the pressure higher than he was willing to resist.

"_I see this not infrerquently, people getting heavy & the horse just 'bracing' against the kicking because they either have no clue what to do to 'get out of' the pressure..._"

If the horse hasn't been trained to move off of leg - if they just do not know what the cue means - then they are not broke. I haven't met a broke horse yet who didn't understand what the cue meant. Same with pulling back on two reins. I've never met a broke (trained) horse who did not know that cue. What trainer trains a horse without teaching cues to go and stop? But I've met plenty of horses who preferred being lazy to moving at a kick. If the rider isn't willing to raise the ante, the horse takes control. 

"_If a horse stretches it's neck out to *lessen*(not evade - the pressure's still there) and resist the discomfort of bit pressure, this is because they haven't been trained well enough how to yield to the pressure(& so truly 'evade' strong 'cues')._"

Mia knows extremely well how to yield to pressure...IF SHE WANTS TO. She stops fine with slack still in the reins...IF SHE WANTS TO. But sometimes she does not want to - a horse with a mind of her own! That is part of what makes her fun to ride, but she sure as heck knows how to give to pressure, with either snaffle or rope halter. She has stopped thousands of times in a rope halter and in a snaffle.

But when she doesn't want to stop? When she is having fun running and wants to continue having fun? Out goes the head, because she knows what happens to a snaffle when she stretches out - it slides back, against her teeth. The pressure is no longer against her tongue or the bars of her mouth, but in a place where she can ignore it.

"_Yes, a different shaped device that causes more pain when they do this will of course 'discourage' that particular 'wrong answer'._"

Please knock off this "pain" garbage! I've stopped Mia in a gallop with a snaffle using a "pulley rein" stop - and yeah, it hurt her mouth. It may have saved her life and mine, but it sure as heck hurt her mouth - with a darn snaffle. Put a Billy Allen curb in her mouth, and she'll stop with a tug AND NO SIGN OF DISCOMFORT. None!

Curb bits no more work thru pain than snaffles or bitless bridles do. A Billy Allen curb has nothing likely to damage the mouth, unlike a twisted snaffle. But unlike a snaffle, its mechanical design means the pressure WILL go against the tongue and bars - where bit pressure is supposed to be applied.

If a horse is going to respond to 9 lbs of pressure, the horse has no way of knowing if that is 9 x 1 (snaffle) or 3 x 3 (lever). All they feel is the pressure in their mouth. If you apply pressure until the horse responds, and then release, the pressure in the mouth will be the same because that is what the horse responds to. They don't do math.

But they do know where that pressure is being applied. When a horse learns that stretching out its head puts the snaffle against the molars, it has a very effective "release" it can give itself in full gallop. With a curb, the release comes when the rider releases it, not the horse.

If the horse is being ridden with its head in the vertical, typical for English riding, the pull on the snaffle goes against the bars and tongue. When it stretches out, it does not. A western horse normally carries its head at about a 45 deg angle, which means the snaffle is already losing effectiveness in where it applies pressure.

This was Cowboy with my DIL the first day he was with us. Look at where the snaffle and reins are:










Cowboy had been on 2 ranches, done gaming, and been a lesson horse for 2 years. He knew the cues, but he also knew how to give himself a release. Like Mia, he'll stop on a dime if he feels like it. But when he doesn't, he knows how to give himself a release while galloping - in a snaffle.

No one has to use a curb if they do not want to do so, but it would be nice if folks would accept the possibility that millions of western horses are not in pain. Curb bits do not work off of causing pain thru leverage. They are a good tool for softening a horse. And if I did it, it cannot be very hard.

I've used bitless, snaffles and curbs. I see no sign one is gentler or kinder than the other. But if any one of them WAS gentler, based on my observations, I think it would be the western curb. 99% of the time, the horse just holds it in their mouth. When it is used, the horse always feels the rotation of the mouthpiece before any pressure is applied. The horse cannot get a release without the rider giving him one, so they honor it better - and in the long run, that makes a happier and healthier horse. I'm debating getting Mia a leather sidepull for Christmas. But if I could only have and use one tool, it would be the Billy Allen. That gives the most distinct cue with the least pressure.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Loosie and Tiny I agree with both of you. 

We are training (my trainer and myself) a green horse with a hard mouth and dead to the leg. Lots of bad riding has been done on that horse! 
The first hour on his back (after hours of ground work re-training), we spent it standing still; cues and responses;  lower the head, lateral flex left, right, raise the head, shift weight front, shift weight back, shift right, shift left. 
We kept at it until we got a response lighter stimulus than the initial response (took the good deal), then moved on to the next cue.  
Next session, review until we received a response with softer stimulus than the first (a new good deal) and learn new things move shoulder, move flank. One step forward, stop. One step back, stop, another hour gone by. 
We established a baseline for communication for both the horse and the rider.  Once he had achieved a response to reasonably light cues, we walked and didn’t move on until even more lightness was achieved at a walk. 
All of this was done in a Bosal with Mecate reins.
Not everyone has this amount of patience for the process, but I trust my trainer and am happy with the results thus far. 
He is going to be a bridle horse rather than a horse that rides in a bridle. Very exciting!


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

a horse may throw his head up to find some kind of release from the snaffle, but the rider's job is to show it where it can better find a release, and that is right where the rider wants the head. neither gaping above, nor sucking below. the horse may try those evasions, but only becuase it has worked for him in the past. if you make that NOT work, and something else work, then he will not look for the release up above, but will look for it by giving to the bit. 
if the rider does nothing when the hrose raises his head in that sort of evasion, then it will continue. the correct response is to make that not work so well. so, the rider continues asking for correct contact, and if the hrose goes up, the rider goes up with him, raising her/his hands to keep the exact same contact, becuase you don't want to make a change in your 'ask', until the horse makes the right response. you don't pull down, and you don't let go. you stay in there until you get a change.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

bsms said:


> Some horses are eager to obey. Trooper would be an example. If he understands, he'll obey.
> ...But sometimes she just doesn't feel like obeying....
> One of them would not go faster than a walk UNLESS the rider had a crop in his hand.


In saying that, I can't help feel you miss the whole point of what I'm trying to explain. I'm sorry, it's clear as, in my own head!:lol: One big point of fucassing on *teaching & reinforcing the Right Answers* and being judicious with & minimising the use of punishment is to change their mindset, to actually give them reasons to WANT to do as you ask, not simply because they fear the consequences. To also not fear trying & making mistakes.



> If the horse hasn't been trained to move off of leg - if they just do not know what the cue means - then they are not broke. ... Same with pulling back on two reins. I've never met a broke (trained) horse who did not know that cue.


Every time someone interacts with a horse, they're training them. So I'm not saying it was necessarily the original 'breaker' that... unbroke them.



> Out goes the head, because she knows what happens to a snaffle when she stretches out


There's nothing to say you must pull back equally with 2 reins to gain control, and perhaps that is more relevant than the thing in the horse's mouth.



> Please knock off this "pain" garbage! I've stopped Mia in a gallop with a snaffle using a "pulley rein" stop - and yeah, it hurt her mouth. It may have saved her life and mine, but it sure as heck hurt her mouth - with a darn snaffle. Put a Billy Allen curb in her mouth, and she'll stop with a tug AND NO SIGN OF DISCOMFORT. None!


No, I will not stop with the pain 'garbage'! Because that is of primary relevance to our disagreement. That is the difference between focussing on reinforcing the 'good' or the 'bad'. Simply put, to one degree or other, negative reinforcement is about applying discomfort/pain that the horse is motivated to 'get out of' & learn to avoid in the future. **& I have never once said that's _necessarily_ a Bad Thing either!** As you've said, it's useless if you don't 'ramp it up' to an effective level. I'm guessing you call it 'garbage' because you don't believe that the different 'effectiveness', or Mia's motivation to avoid heavy handedness by stopping on light cues has anything to do with her having learned it hurts to resist you. IOW she's motivated to avoid the pain. I just don't quite get how you think it works - and why the snaffle didn't - otherwise? 

& again, just in case you missed it the other times, I'm not even disagreeing with using more force when necessary(without bringing life & death situations into it, where of course you'll do whatever it takes). There's just a lot more to it, that is far more important IMO.



> Curb bits no more work thru pain than snaffles or bitless bridles do. A Billy Allen curb has nothing likely to damage the mouth,


Agree with your first sentence. To varying degrees, and yes, 'feels', they all have the capacity, when used forcefully to cause pain. When Mia changed her behaviour in a curb, you have said it's because she could no longer 'evade pressure'. I guess the 'damage the mouth' comes down to perception of damage, because I'd call bruising damage, and it doesn't take much pressure from something hard against sensitive gums to do that.



> nice if folks would accept the possibility that millions of western horses are not in pain.


Sigh. I really don't know how to put it more clearly that I'M NOT SAYING ANYTHING OF THE SORT! But I just don't understand why 'nice folks refuse to accept the possibility' that a bit of metal in the mouth, or a kick in the ribs may be effective at teaching horses to avoid 'bad behaviour' *because* it's too uncomfortable or painful to 'run through'. I suspect people get so hung up about not wanting to be seen to ever hurt the horsey(it's only 'pressure'...) that they can't see the forest for the trees here.



> I've used bitless, snaffles and curbs. I see no sign one is gentler or kinder than the other.


Agree with that too, for the most part. It's not the equipment so much, as the training the horse/rider has. I do think that ANY bit, in untrained hands, OR on an untrained horse has the capacity for greater pain than most bitless setups though, which is why I like to teach my horses(& human learners) with a halter first, before graduating to a bit.


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

I've not read all the comment yet. but will shortly.

My take on hard mouths - it is a training issue. the horse needs to learn what is required of it. My haflinger, who I gently backed, totally ignored the bit to guide her at first. No bad training occurred. It has taken me 3 years to get her to novice dressage level, she has to understand what I require of her, if she thinks she knows best or doesn't trust me then she'll run through my hand. We are now working on collection and self carriage and towards higher levels which I never thought possible when I first backed her.

If I take her jumping (or hunting) her excitement leads her to "forget" my requests and I am forced to use a stronger bit rather than a snaffle so I can control her impulsion into the jump. Sometime different bits are needed, but it must come with understanding. I can hack my haffy out in a snaffle and will always choose the most gentle bit I can, and will continue to do so, although I am experimenting with a double bridle and it is giving me increased control to allow Hattie time to understand what I am asking, I then intend to go back to the snaffle.

I wouldn't choose to use a long lever curb bit alone unless all training had failed, for me they are just too severe (the double bridle gives the option of generally riding on the snaffle).


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Clava said:


> ...I wouldn't choose to use a long lever curb bit alone unless all training had failed, for me they are just too severe (the double bridle gives the option of generally riding on the snaffle).


Written like an English rider. Too severe? Not hardly...but then, western riding doesn't generally put horses 'on the bit'.



loosie said:


> ...There's nothing to say you must pull back equally with 2 reins to gain control, and perhaps that is more relevant than the thing in the horse's mouth.
> 
> No, I will not stop with the pain 'garbage'! Because that is of primary relevance to our disagreement. That is the difference between focussing on reinforcing the 'good' or the 'bad'. Simply put, to one degree or other, negative reinforcement is about applying discomfort/pain that the horse is motivated to 'get out of' & learn to avoid in the future. **& I have never once said that's _necessarily_ a Bad Thing either!** As you've said, it's useless if you don't 'ramp it up' to an effective level. I'm guessing you call it 'garbage' because you don't believe that the different 'effectiveness', or Mia's motivation to avoid heavy handedness by stopping on light cues has anything to do with her having learned it hurts to resist you. IOW she's motivated to avoid the pain. I just don't quite get how you think it works - and why the snaffle didn't - otherwise?...


1 - As I've pointed out, my environment makes stopping in a straight line important. Turning does not work when there is cactus on either side.

2 - "I just don't quite get how you think it works - and why the snaffle didn't - otherwise?"

I've explained that at length. It is not the amount of pressure, but where the pressure is applied and what gives RELEASE.

Pull back on a snaffle, and the horse can give himself relief That is why, on post #2, I asked "_Does she stretch her head out?_"If the answer is yes, then the horse is providing its own release from pressure by placing it against the molars instead of the bars. The horse chooses the relief.

With a curb, whether one assumes it is pressure against the bars or a squeezing between mouthpiece and curb strap, the release only comes when the rider gives it - and it is the RELEASE THAT TEACHES, not the pressure.

If the horse is giving itself relief from pressure with the snaffle, then the snaffle is no longer a good training tool.

That does not mean pain. There is a huge difference between something unpleasant and pain. When I've been jogging 20 minutes, I feel discomfort. If I then stepped on a cholla cactus, I'd feel pain. I can handle discomfort, and so can a horse. Pain scares a horse. It doesn't teach a horse squat.

Trooper has scars on his side from being spurred. That was pain. The only thing he learned from that was an overpowering fear of cowboy hats - which is what he associated the pain with. It took a pro 4 weeks to get him to accept being touched by a cowboy hat.

Pressure and release from uncomfortable, not pain.



tinyliny said:


> a horse may throw his head up to find some kind of release from the snaffle, but the rider's job is to show it where it can better find a release, and that is right where the rider wants the head. neither gaping above, nor sucking below. the horse may try those evasions, but only becuase it has worked for him in the past. if you make that NOT work, and something else work...so, the rider continues asking for correct contact, and if the hrose goes up, the rider goes up with him, raising her/his hands to keep the exact same contact...


I'm not discussing head flinging. Frankly, I've never experienced it with my horses, so I haven't had to cure it.

But when a horse stretches its head out in a run using a snaffle, the horse ALREADY HAS RELEASE - at least, enough release to satisfy the horse. Mia enjoys going fast, and is entirely willing to trade pressure on her molars in exchange for continuing a run. She has then provided an acceptable release for herself.

In a field, I could try side-side motion with a snaffle. With large cactus flashing by on either side, I needed to try something else.



Clava said:


> ...I wouldn't choose to use a long lever curb bit alone unless all training had failed, for me they are just too severe (the double bridle gives the option of generally riding on the snaffle).


To return to this, this is the misconception that bothers me. The easiest and shortest training I've done with Mia was converting her over to a western curb. The idea that it is "severe" would puzzle her. She'll clamp her jaw shut to avoid a French Link snaffle, but has no problem taking a 7.5" western curb.

Why? Because of two things:

1 - The western curb, used properly, is primarily a place to hang the far end of the reins. It is a different philosophy from English riding, where one rides with contact. My goal on a ride is to hang the reins from the bit, and then not use it. I ought to be able to communicate in other ways. And when she isn't wound up, we can. But if she gets wound up and wants to run, THEN some light pulls with one hand - usually by rotating one wrist - and the mouth that hasn't had pressure applied to it feels and responds.

2 - She learned how to get release - "freedom", which is a great way to put it - before I got on her back and used it. On her back, we practiced at a walk, eventually at a trot, and only cantered when she was 100% solid at a trot. She raised her head two times...I kept the pressure, she didn't get release, she dropped her head, didn't get release, softened a tiny bit at the poll - and got release. Two years later, she has never tried raising her head. She also understands that stretching her head out will not give release.

And because standing still made the bad things go away, she started giving up her fears. She is still too competitive a horse for me to trust her going fast around another horse off property with a snaffle. She is riding fine in an O-ring off property now, provided there isn't a horse to race. She is vastly softer and more relaxed now.

Again, no one has to try it if they don't want to. If the OP wants to try bitless instead, she is welcome to! But having watched the transformation in Mia, I fully understand why a member who no longer posts here sent me a PM a few years ago and suggested it. It isn't hard to use. It isn't harsh. It has been a great tool for making Mia softer - not through pain, but because I'm the one who has to give her release.

I think it is a pity so many riders freak out over western curb bits. It is not leverage that makes them effective. Horses don't do math. You use no more pressure than it takes, and that will be the same amount of mouth pressure to the horse in snaffle or curb. It is rotation, and consistent 100% of the time signal and the ability of the rider to decide when pressure is released that makes them work. I'll take a Billy Allen curb over a slow twist snaffle any day of the week - because it is milder.








​


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

bsms said:


> Written like an English rider.


I've looked back over the OP's recent posts and she has said she has switched to English riding.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I didn't look at her other posts. But she has now said she wants to try bitless, which is fine too. It might work well for her.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Firstly bsms, as this discussion seems to be getting a little warm, and I feel you're not getting what I'm trying to say, maybe taking me personally, which is not my intention at all, I would like to say that as far as I'm concerned, this is a discussion about principles, which I hope is a helpful contribution to the OP's discussion too, not a personal thing to or at you in the least. Just that it was your words that prompted this part of it 

We obviously have quite strong opinions, which I feel are much because of misunderstanding. We only have written words to go on, so there's lots of 'between the lines' that gets filled... But hey, even if we understand eachother perfectly & still disagree, who cares?? We can 'agree to disagree' & discuss it respectfully still :wink: Even if you are wrong!:lol:



bsms said:


> 1 - As I've pointed out, my environment makes stopping in a straight line important. Turning does not work when there is cactus on either side.


Trained well, a good '1 rein stop' isn't telling the horse to turn tho. It's not a '1 rein turn'. You need to *teach* it first, not just go out & expect it to work or force it tho. BUT since you bring cactus into it, that might also be a very useful 'tool', in reinforcing her NOT turning... I'm guessing you're not the only one doesn't want to be spiked!:wink:



> I've explained that at length. It is not the amount of pressure, but where the pressure is applied and what gives RELEASE.
> 
> Pull back on a snaffle, and the horse can give himself relief ... The horse chooses the relief.


Absolutely, it's the timing of the release that is the most vital part of effective negative reinforcement. We train horses with all kinds of 'pressure' and it is up to *us* to choose what 'cue' should mean what - what 'works' for the horse, for any given 'cue'. Obviously some horses 'accidentally' learn that that's what worked with a snaffle, but it no longer works with a curb. No argument there. But as said, nothing stopping someone using a snaffle effectively either. Just because in one position, with 2 hands equally on reins the horse finds 'release', doesn't mean to say you have to do it that way. But as you seem to be arguing that 'pressure' is not discomfort/pain (regardless what equipment), I ask, why would a horse want to find release from it? And why does 'getting as firm as necessary' work, if not because it raises the level of discomfort/pain that the horse is motivated to *give himself relief from*? 

Regarding the horse finding release for himself, that IMO is EXACTLY what training with negative reinforcement(which is THE major component of horse training) is about, and a good trainer is one who makes it easiest for him to choose the right answer. There is no denying that different equipment, such as your bits, can help 'short cut' certain things in certain ways. I've also said that I don't at all think this is necessarily a bad or wrong thing either(in conjunction with good training). But gadgets IMO are generally a poor substitute for good training. Negative reinforcement/punishment, in whatever form, DOES work through discomfort/pain, and IME that is best fully appreciated, including it's 'side effects', rather than denied, so it can be used judiciously & appropriately. 



> the release only comes when the rider gives it - and it is the RELEASE THAT TEACHES, not the pressure.


Well, I wouldn't say it's not the pressure at all - if there was nothing for them to be motivated to get release from... But the rest is right, in that the horse will find/do what works to get out of that pressure. But again, there's nothing stopping a human working out other ways(except maybe our big brains!:lol of ensuring, say, the rider doesn't *allow* 'wrong' answers to work for the horse by pulling back on 2 reins on a snaffle with a horse who's learned to evade *stronger* 'pressure' that way.

IMO good training SHOULD absolutely be about setting it up for the horse to 'choose' or find the 'right' answers for themselves, and it is the *trainer's responsibility* to 'choose' what they allow to work for the horse, AND that they build the horse's desire to 'try'.



> If the horse is giving itself relief from pressure with the snaffle, then the snaffle is no longer a good training tool.


Or perhaps the rider is the tool at fault... pardon, couldn't help myself when you put it like that. :lol: What's that saying, about tradies & blaming tools...



> That does not mean pain. There is a huge difference between something unpleasant and pain.


It's called 'degrees', and there is not always much of a difference at all, in my understanding. It's very subjective, to different 'people'(of whatever species) and situations. What hurts for you may be nothing more than mild discomfort for me. But if I've got a headache, you can cause me serious pain just turning on bright lights or making a noise. Light bit pressure on the bars may be fine for one horse, but if that same horse had to put up with it for long periods, or otherwise developed sensitive, bruised gums, even the lightest pressure may cause pain.

So saying, _effectively_ there is a difference in response/reaction between discomfort & 'pain'(I consider mental, not just physical too BTW), and I think it's important to avoid causing a horse real pain, wherever it's possible to avoid it. Just that it being so subjective, we need to consider whether whatever we're doing/using is indeed painful, or too uncomfortable. 



> When I've been jogging 20 minutes, I feel discomfort. If I then stepped on a cholla cactus, I'd feel pain. I can handle discomfort, and so can a horse. Pain scares a horse. It doesn't teach a horse squat.


I think I'd be in pain, at least my knees, after a 20 minute jog myself:lol: You and - possibly a lot more so - your horse, can handle pain too. These stoic beasts do it frequently, without being 'scared' by it. Depends on specifics, degree, subjectivity... training.



> Pressure and release from uncomfortable, not pain.


Agree, but that's not to say pain, or fear of pain is not a factor, which you seem to deny. But maybe I'm reading wrongly & that's just a matter of degrees too.



> 1 - The western curb, used properly, is primarily a place to hang the far end of the reins. It is a different philosophy from English riding, where one rides with contact. My goal on a ride is to hang the reins from the bit, and then not use it. I ought to be able to communicate in other ways. And when she isn't wound up, we can. But if she gets wound up and wants to run, THEN some light pulls with one hand


Again, agree with all those kinds of statements.



> It is not leverage that makes them effective.


Beg to differ there. If leverage isn't more effective, then why use it for control? Why are they made that way? Why ARE longer shanks 'stronger' & 'more effective'?? Simple physics, which tends to exist whether or not the horse or human is interested in the equations.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm getting lost here. what is the "argument" here?


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> I'm getting lost here. what is the "argument" here?


I forget!:razz: Not really. I agreed with most of bsm's post(as I tend to to most of his), but for him saying 'snaffles are p-poor tools for excited horses' or some such, and that curbs are wonderful & none of that's got anything to do with potential for pain. That 'being as firm as necessary' does not include pain. I think that's all.


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Bsms - having used a quote from me twice, I feel I need to respond. My opinion is that curbs are severe, this is my opinion formed by having ridden many different horses for over 40 years with different bits  Long shank curb bits put more pressure on the mouth given the same amount of pressure from the hand when compared with a snaffle. I don't like them and feel slightly uncomfortable even using the curb with the double bridle that only comes into play occasionally. When riding English you teach the horse to carry itself on a very light contact in self carriage, head in front of the vertical, the horse must be light and responsive in a snaffle for low level dressage competitions (which equates to many English riders common riding ability).

I am an English rider and so of course write as one, which is relevant here, my horse responded with a hard mouth at first, but with training and CORRECT rider signals , now responds with a light mouth to a snaffle and can compete correctly in dressage (which is just English riding after all) with lightness and self carriage.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

The horse that is currently in training with us, IF both he AND I finish out well, will ride in a spade bit (bridle horse). But that is a BIG “if, more for me than him. 
He will use a spade, not because I need to control him, but because he is in such good control of himself (training) that I don’t need to control him, only communicate very specific things with him easily. 
A bit is meant to be a communication tool, not a control tool. If it is becomes a necessary means of control, then something needs to change on the training end, the horse’s mental state, or the rider’s actions. People don’t like to hear that, it feels too "personal" and too overwhelming. 
You should be able to "control" your horse in a rope halter. When I say control, I am not talking about doing a Piaffe. I mean keeping him going the speed and direction you want him going, including stop. 
If you cannot, then you need to do some work, either of yourself, or the horse. Adding a bit is simply to communicate additional subtle cues. 
Just my two cents.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

loosie said:


> ...Beg to differ there. If leverage isn't more effective, then why use it for control? Why are they made that way? Why ARE longer shanks 'stronger' & 'more effective'?? Simple physics, which tends to exist whether or not the horse or human is interested in the equations.


They are made that way so that the mouthpiece will ROTATE DOWN instead of PULL BACK. If the horse is going to respond - and they always get to decide when they respond - to 9 lbs of pressure, then the horse has no idea if the rider is pulling with 9 lbs, or pulling with 3 lbs multiplied three-fold by leverage. Either way, that horse is responding to the same amount of pressure in the mouth - not "leverage".

If it was just a matter of force, then a snaffle would have worked fine for me. I'm 180 lbs. I was using an Australian stock saddle, and could brace my thighs against the poleys and pull with a couple hundred lbs of pressure (unless the poleys snapped off).

Yet with a curb, even when scared, she would stop when I rotated one wrist. My back can provide a couple hundred pounds of pull, but I cannot rotate one wrist very hard. Yet rotating a wrist worked with a western curb, and pulling very hard did not work with a snaffle. So the difference wasn't AMOUNT of pressure, but where it was applied and when she got relief. (My back being 50 times stronger than my wrist would more than cancel out the 3 fold advantage of the shanks).

A ROTATING design will always rotate the pressure down, regardless of head position. Some of the typical bit evasions that work against a snaffle will not work against a curb. That makes it a useful TOOL for working with a horse who has learned to evade a snaffle. It would be better if the horse never learned to evade or fight a snaffle to begin with, but that wasn't the case.

"'_snaffles are p-poor tools for excited horses' or some such, and that curbs are wonderful_"

Once a horse stretches out its head, a curb will do a better job of providing pressure against the bars and giving release when the rider chooses than a snaffle. And while a horse can turn great in a curb, a snaffle gives clearer turn cues with a greenish horse than a curb does. That is why Mia has two bridles hanging on the door. I choose the one that matches my goals for the day.



Clava said:


> Bsms - having used a quote from me twice, I feel I need to respond. My opinion is that curbs are severe, this is my opinion formed by having ridden many different horses for over 40 years with different bits :smile: Long shank curb bits put more pressure on the mouth given the same amount of pressure from the hand when compared with a snaffle....


True. So if a rider always applied 5 lbs of pressure, the curb will transmit greater pressure to the mouth. However, no rider applies X lbs of pressure to a given situation. They apply whatever it takes to get the desired response. In an experiment, an experienced dressage rider applied what she thought was a few ounces of consistent, soft contact. It looked like this:










About 1 lb with the reins slack, bouncing around between 2-6 lbs with 'soft, consistent contact', and about 8 lbs for a half-halt. We riders honestly do not know how much pressure we are applying. We apply pressure until we see a result, and then release. If the experienced dressage rider in the above test did a half-halt using a standard curb, then about 2.5 lbs of rein pressure would have created 7.5 lbs of mouth pressure, the horse would half-halt and she would have released.

Curb bits are horrible if the rider uses the reins for balance or tends to snatch on the reins. For a rider like that, I think ANY bit is a bad choice.

Also, long shanks have nothing to do with mechanical advantage. It is the ration of the lower to upper shank, not the total length, that provides mechanical advantage. My 7.5" western curb has a ratio of about 2:1, just like many English curbs. I've seen some with about a 5:1 ratio but see no reason to use one - because it is not the mechanical advantage that makes it effective.

Using the curb, rotating one wrist gave me vastly better results in teaching Mia to stop and stay still when scared than pulling with all my strength using a snaffle - so no, curbs do not work off of leverage increasing the pressure.

ORS: The lady I took lessons from loved one rein stops. I think they are kind of silly. If your horse stops straight ahead on a one rein stop - and they should - it is a trained response to a given cue. Why someone thinks lifting one rein is a 'good cue', and lifting two reins is a 'bad cue', I don't know.

The problem with some horses is that they are not responding well to ANY cue, either from excitement or from fear. The ultimate solution is to train them to not get quite that excited or quite that fearful, and to respond to the cue they were trained to do - one rein or two doesn't matter.

And TL, I guess the issue for me is this: Is it reasonable to use a curb bit to train a horse not to bolt or not to get too excited when running? There are many who believe a curb bit is cruel on any horse who doesn't already do everything beautifully in a snaffle. 

That makes no sense to me because I was a green rider with a green horse, and a curb bit transformed her. OK, it involved training...but we had reached a point where I was seriously considering getting rid of Mia because she wasn't safe to ride. As in, put her down before she killed us both. A member of HF sent me a PM suggesting I try a curb for some of the reasons I've argued on this thread, and that PM may have saved Mia's life. I'm too old to want to keep riding a horse who bolted at everything and who would try to run across the desert, and no one wanted to take her off my hands.

Riding her in an O-ring snaffle thru the neighborhood a couple of days ago, a car alarm went off and she barely flicked an ear. She doesn't even resemble the horse I once owned.

Folks ought to be open to various types of tack and bits (or bitless) as training tools, and feel free to try them. Curb bits are not harsh - not in any form - unless used badly. A Billy Allen curb is functionally a gentler and softer option than a slow twist snaffle.

heck, George Morris recommends using a double twisted wire snaffle on a horse that bolts. My Billy Allen is a MUCH gentler design that what George Morris recommends.

Julie Goodnight recommends using a pulley rein to stop a horse who isn't listening. Having tried both it and curbs, I know Mia prefers the curb.

No one has to use one if they do not want. I just think it is silly to rule them out completely as a training tool.


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

What some dressage rider has recorded as doing with a snaffle or curb is not relevant to my opinion based upon my experience and how I have felt horses respond. For me, curbs are severe and I prefer to train a horse to respond with a light mouth to a snaffle rather than up the severity of the bit to a curb. I have never had to "pull with all my strength" on a snaffle to get a horse to stand to avoid a spook, they do so from trusting me and knowing what I want rather than force of a severe bit.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

A horse that rides in control without a bit, demonstrates the most basic understanding of yielding to reasonable pressure. A rider that can control a horse without a bit demonstrates the ability to effectively use the most basic pressure and release as communication with the horse. 
If one or the other cannot demonstrate this, what does adding a bit and sensitivity to the equation do? That is why the saying green + green = black and blue.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Too many posts and debates to go through each one so my input:
Horses can develop 'hard mouths' in as much as they become 'desensitized to the pressure of the bit from hard hands or a bit that's too severe which is why once you start introducing a more severe bit to solve a braking problem it can become the first rung on the ladder
Horses can learn to set their necks and jaws against the riders hands - that isn't a hard mouth its a stiff, resistant body
Horses can learn to avoid the bit by putting their heads in the air - that's when bits with some poll pressure can help - also running martingales. You can't pull a horses head down from that position because the action of the bit has gone from the bars and lips to the corner of the mouth - and if it decides to go with you you'll struggle to stop it because they usually 'lock' their necks as well.
Horses can learn to evade the bit by getting behind it - common result of using things like twisted snaffles, gags and leverage bits. Best solved by going bitless for a while or using a really mild bit on a very light hand (light hand does not have to mean a long rein)
Quite often horses that won't stand still or get too forward are being ridden with too much leg pressure (rider not aware of) and/or a rider that's very tense


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Clava said:


> What some dressage rider has recorded as doing with a snaffle or curb is not relevant to my opinion based upon my experience and how I have felt horses respond. For me, curbs are severe...


Have you ever used a western curb such as a Billy Allen, combined with the western approach to using reins? If not, then your experience has nothing to do with what I've recommended.

And the rein pressure used by an experienced English rider, measured by someone who is herself a dressage rider and fan, is highly relevant to what happens when someone uses a bit with contact. It may even explain why curb bits are often considered severe by English riders, but are frequently taught to a young horse and used by average riders - successfully - in the western style. 

One cannot separate tack's effect from how it is used. There is nothing severe about this:









Or even this, when she was thinking about spooking:










Or this, taken about 150 yards prior to her bumping into a staghorn cactus and covering her leg in spines - and stopping with three one-hands bumps on the rein:










I realize that is not a typical style of English riding. I'm not criticizing English riding in any way. It obviously works and works well for millions of horses. Great! So does the approach used above. What I object to is ruling out the above approach based on a belief that curb bits are harsh or work via pain. I also fail to see anything radical, upsetting or even surprising about that statement.


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

bsms said:


> Have you ever used a western curb such as a Billy Allen, combined with the western approach to using reins? If not, then your experience has nothing to do with what I've recommended.
> 
> .


Then why say it? and why quote me? and why compare a dressage rider's apparent statistics? you know I am talking about English riding and made that very clear. I have used a long shank curb though and know how the horse reacted as compared to a snaffle. For me, a long shank curb is a severe bit.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I appreciate what you're saying bsms but it sounds as if this member is riding 'english' style with the horse in an English frame which can be achieved even in a bitless bridle but not ideally in a long shanked western bit
If the OP wants to try poll pressure then probably better to use a more typical English/european bit such as a Cheltenham gag or a Pelham (both with 2 reins) or a Baucher bit


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

> because I was a green rider with a green horse, and a curb bit transformed her.


A VERY relevant bit of your post, IMO.



bsms said:


> They are made that way so that the mouthpiece will ROTATE DOWN instead of PULL BACK.


In saying that, you seem to have ignored half the question. If it was purely about 'rotating', then a very small lever would be all that's needed, and the long shanked bits would be pointless, rather than 'more effective' for control.


> they respond - to 9 lbs of pressure, then the horse has no idea if the rider is pulling with 9 lbs, or pulling with 3 lbs multiplied three-fold by leverage.


Of course 9lbs = 9lbs, but you shouldn't be putting that kind of force on any bit IMO(we're talking about lbs of 'pressure' on sensitive bars - you can't say that's never more than mild discomfort!). I'm no science/maths geek, but I do know leverage *multiplies* the force & is explained with simple physics. The point of leverage is to allow you to be 'light' with your aids(or have more power - ever used a picket puller for eg? - that'll prove it!), while still exerting more pressure on the horse - the amount of leverage - position of the 'fulcrum' governs how much the pressure YOU exert is multiplied. eg. to get 9lb, you don't need to exert anything like 9lbs of muscle power with a lever bit, where you would with a snaffle or such.



> And while a horse can turn great in a curb, a snaffle gives clearer turn cues with a greenish horse than a curb does. That is why Mia has two bridles hanging on the door. I choose the one that matches my goals for the day.


Yes, using unclear equipment(real or perceived) on a green horse - that is, using equipment rather than training the horse to YIELD to any pressure was another point of contention.



> True. So if a rider always applied 5 lbs of pressure, the curb will transmit greater pressure to the mouth.


Isn't this completely contradicting what you went on about before with your 'maths'?? 



> About 1 lb with the reins slack, bouncing around between 2-6 lbs with 'soft, consistent contact', and about 8 lbs for a half-halt. We riders honestly do not know how much pressure we are applying.


VERY relevant IMO, especially when talking green/not well trained horses.



> That makes no sense to me because I was a green rider with a green horse, and a curb bit transformed her.


Again, I never said it isn't an effective 'short cut' - why do you think people (especially inexperienced people with little trained horses) have been finding different ways of forcing horses to do stuff for eons??



> No one has to use one if they do not want. I just think it is silly to rule them out completely as a training tool.


Again, I for one, am not ruling them out, but I feel you're still just talking in circles & not listening to what I'm saying. Apologies if I'm not being clear, but I'm done - I don't feel there's anything more I can say, that will be helpful for OP or others, and you're obviously not open to considering it.


----------



## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

loosie said:


> I'm no science/maths geek, but I do know leverage *multiplies* the force & is explained with simple physics. The point of leverage is to allow you to be 'light' with your aids(or have more power - ever used a picket puller for eg? - that'll prove it!), while still exerting more pressure on the horse - the amount of leverage - position of the 'fulcrum' governs how much the pressure YOU exert is multiplied.


leverage exchanges distance for force, so the "rotation of the wrist" action that bsms describes would have put more pressure on the horses mouth in a snaffle than the same action would've in a curb.



loosie said:


> Yes, using unclear equipment(real or perceived) on a green horse - that is, using equipment rather than training the horse to YIELD to any pressure was another point of contention.


clarity is bsms' point. his experience with the curb is that it provides more clarity to his horse because the pressure is always applied in the same place in the horses mouth regardless of the horses head position, due to it's rotational action.
vs the snaffle:
head in normal carriage = pressure on bars of mouth
head up or out = pressure on teeth.
and responsiveness to pressure on the bars of the mouth doesn't specifically imply responsiveness to pressure on the teeth. his case pretty strongly suggests that. 



loosie said:


> Again, I never said it isn't an effective 'short cut' - why do you think people (especially inexperienced people with little trained horses) have been finding different ways of forcing horses to do stuff for eons??


I don't think bsms was after a shortcut when he figured out why curbs can work well for some horses. they just allow him to apply his cues in a way that is more consistent regardless of his horses head carriage.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

I've only read two pages of discussion but I will say that while I agree training properly to cues is the most important thing, the choice of bit for an individual horse/rider combination can also make a great difference. It's good to find something in which a horse is comfortable. There is a myth that curb bits are always harsher bits than snaffles: I really recommend the late Tom Roberts' _Horse Control and the Bit_ for a most enlightening book on how bits actually work and which ones truly to avoid at all costs (e.g. anything really thin, anything that's not smooth, anything that combines a jointed mouthpiece with leverage).

Tom Roberts used to make his students do an exercise in pairs where he'd give them a snaffle attached to reins and put it over the bridge of one person's nose and ask the other person to start applying pressure from behind. I recommend anyone to try it... because the bridge of our nose has about as much padding over the bone as the bars of a horse's mouth (next to none).

So that's why I get goosebumps when I read in bsms's posts about people applying, was it 3 or 8 pounds of pressure for a half halt? Anyway, I wouldn't apply a tenth of that in a half halt myself.

One thing no amount of training can affect is the configuration of a horse's mouth...and this means that different horses will find different bits comfortable. We've educated 30+ horses in our lives and always, always try them with standard jointed eggbutt snaffles of varying thicknesses, French link snaffles, mullen-mouthed snaffles, and mild curbs such as a port-mouthed Spanish "snaffle" with slotted D-rings (and I like the look of the curb bit bsms posted too). Horses soon tell you what they like best, and we take their preferences into account ourselves. My Arabian mare had a narrow mouth and really disliked jointed snaffles, so she went in a Spanish most of the time. One of our stallions loves the standard jointed eggbutt.

My current riding horse is also in a Spanish. He was upside-down in his neck when I got him post-harness and his head carriage improved very quickly in this bit (and with sensitive training and handling). Put a horse like that in a snaffle and you'll take much longer to achieve the same result, plus he's comfortable, so that's fine. Photo from the first few months of his saddle training shows a nice relaxed horse whose headset was already remarkably improving. I'm riding him in "Contact One" - the minimum, yielding butterfly weight I can get away with for him to "hold hands" with me. (This might be of interest to people who think you can't ride in contact in a curb bit.)










His lip-flapping, by the way, is something he does in or out of bridles; most entertainingly when wondering if there is another carrot to be had. :rofl:

An observation on horses and bolting: In my experience, a mild curb bit like the one I'm using there minimises any drama around spooking. Compared to snaffles, curb bits minimise direct shocks to the jaw (e.g. horse snapping its neck up in a spook, and/or rider unbalanced in a bad scenario) because the lever has to turn, absorbing some of the force and giving a gradual increase in pressure which can be yielded to very early in the piece (force spread over longer time interval)... and because the force is spread over more contact area (curb chain and bit).

In a mild curb bit (like with those minimal slotted D-rings), I doubt that more force can be applied to the jaw at maximum contact compared to a snaffle. Also, the horse tucks its head under rather than pokes its nose in response to a curb, instantly reducing pressure on both chin and bars. I think the reason these bits work so well is because they disengage with a tucked head rather than a poked head, which is less conducive to running off, and because they give the horse so much control over pressure and the avoidance of pain and discomfort, which it doesn't easily have in a snaffle. If this sounds counter-intuitive to you, read the book I mentioned for a more thorough explanation.

Anyway, often so-called "less mild" bits work well precisely because they are in practice more mild, and people just don't quite understand the physics of how these bits operate. Increasing the pain levels on a horse isn't going to help anyone stop a horse: Quite the opposite - horses run from pain.

Also I'd encourage anyone who hasn't tried it to also give bitless a go. Sidepulls have a good reputation, and short-shanked wool-padded hackamores like the ones below are super for trails:










That's a very young me learning to ride independently on the great-grandmother of the horse above. The horse concealed by this mare was sold to us as a notorious bolter and did extremely well in a hackamore. I even jumped him in one: Weight aids and gentle pressures are really all you need with horses that have never been deadened by insensitive riding.

But yeah, what you put in your horses' mouths (or not) does make a difference.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Footnote: Often hackamores like in that second picture come with really clunky chin chains. Throw those away and substitute either a very smooth chain with lots of overlapping links, or a leather strap. We used a leather strap with the ones in the picture because we positioned the hackamores higher on the horses' noses where they have decent bone rather than lower down where the bone ends and cartilage are more frail and can move and dig into soft tissue. (You're looking for a comfortable and effective place to cue, not a method of asphyxiation or creating distress...) This then, in combination with the way the levers were manufactured, took the chin chain/strap higher up on the underside of the horse's head than the chin groove - and you wouldn't want to run metal along the twin, sharp-edged bones above the chin groove.

If you're going to use leverage of any description, set it up carefully so the horse isn't uncomfortable, and make sure the lips don't get trapped in the rotation (try it on the ground, observing carefully: especially important with bits), and that everything is smooth and sitting in the most comfortable place.

Christopher gets the physics prize for today. ;-)


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Princessa said:


> The two previous owners used a twisted snaffle on my horse. When I got her, I couldn't bare the thought of that being in my mouth, so I didn't want her to have to endure it. So I used a regular eggbutt snaffle. In the arena, she is fine for the most part but she does seem to fight it sometimes. On the trail, *she does NOT like to stop or* *stand still.* How can I fix this problem without using a twisted bit? Should I just use a twisted snaffle like everyone else did? Help!!


Highlighted because the problem has nothing to do with the bit and all to do with training and riding methods
You could put barbed wire in this horses mouth (please don't take that literally) and it still won't like to stop or stand still' - yes more pain or more/different pressure will maybe work for a while and then the horse will get desensitized to it and then what? More pain, more pressure? You end up with a horse that can't go forwards so starts going upwards
This horse rides fine in a snaffle when it wants too - in a controlled setting like an arena when nothing excites it so its not a 'green' horse in that sense
If the OP wants to ride 'english' then why on earth take the huge leap into a long shanked western curb bit when there are so many other options in between?


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

jaydee said:


> ....More pain, more pressure? You end up with a horse that can't go forwards so starts going upwards...


Bingo, Jaydee. Just thought that was worth repeating!  A lot of bolters and rearers get *made* exactly that way (desperation, and general miscommunication).


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

jaydee said:


> If the OP wants to ride 'english' then why on earth take the huge leap into a long shanked western curb bit when there are so many other options in between?


This is why I read an OP's previous comments from other threads before I reply... Often knowing which discipline or if the OP had other issues determines how I reply.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

updownrider said:


> This is why I read an OP's previous comments from other threads before I reply... Often knowing which discipline or if the OP had other issues determines how I reply.


If only we were all as conscientious as you updownrider - and that's a compliment btw!!!
But as we often aren't (hides under bed) it would help members get the best answers if they gave us as much info as possible or linked to relevant other threads they have if that would help.


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

jaydee said:


> Highlighted because the problem has nothing to do with the bit and all to do with training and riding methods
> You could put barbed wire in this horses mouth (please don't take that literally) and it still won't like to stop or stand still' - yes more pain or more/different pressure will maybe work for a while and then the horse will get desensitized to it and then what? More pain, more pressure? You end up with a horse that can't go forwards so starts going upwards
> This horse rides fine in a snaffle when it wants too - in a controlled setting like an arena when nothing excites it so its not a 'green' horse in that sense
> If the OP wants to ride 'english' then why on earth take the huge leap into a long shanked western curb bit when there are so many other options in between?


True dat!

I would like to tell the OP that it will take time, not days, not weeks, not even months to get the horse 99.9 percent on the bit in a relaxed manner. Time, time, and more time.

And get prepared for the horse to throw every evasion tactic at you: giraffe neck, nose out, nose behind the vertical, sucking the bit, bracing the jaw, bracing the poll, just to name a few. Work through them one at a time.

Time, time, time. I know from experience.

Best of luck!


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Highlighted because the problem has nothing to do with the bit and all to do with training and riding methods
> You could put barbed wire in this horses mouth (please don't take that literally) and it still won't like to stop or stand still' - yes more pain or more/different pressure will maybe work for a while...
> 
> If the OP wants to ride 'english' then why on earth take the huge leap into a long shanked western curb bit when there are so many other options in between?


First, the OP said, in response to my question in post #2, "_By fighting I mean tossing her head and stretching her neck out._"

Second, this thread is posted in the "Horse Training" section, not the English Riding section. I've blocked out the English Riding section in my options so I won't accidentally post in the English Riding section.

Third, I don't really believe in English bits and Western bits any more than I believe in English bridles and Western bridles. Using what works for you & your horse at that point and for a specific goal makes sense to me. Mia and Trooper do not shop for bits, so they don't know if it is English or Western - and I do not tell them.

By the time it was made apparent the OP prefers English, the debate on how curb bits work was already engaged - with some saying curb bits work due to pain. It is my contention they do not.

"_In saying that, you seem to have ignored half the question. If it was purely about 'rotating', then a very small lever would be all that's needed, and the long shanked bits would be pointless, rather than 'more effective' for control._" - loosie

Incorrect. A long shank has a positive effect, particularly for a less experienced rider. The curb strap should be set to engage after 45-60 degrees of rotation. The longer the shank, the further the rider must pull (in inches) before the shanks have rotated enough to engage the curb strap. Thus a less skilled rider can make a larger hand movement before applying pressure.

Second, the mechanical advantage is based on RATIOs, not LENGTH. Western curbs tend to have longer lower shanks matched by longer upper shanks, maintaining about a 2:1 ratio often seen in English curbs. You do not gain any mechanical advantage by making a shank longer. You get it by changing the ratio in your lever. Failure to understand this is a common problem in thinking about curb bits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever

"_Of course 9lbs = 9lbs, but you shouldn't be putting that kind of force on any bit IMO(we're talking about lbs of 'pressure' on sensitive bars - you can't say that's never more than mild discomfort!)_." - loosie

Riders have little sense of how much pressure they apply. That is why I pointed out that a dressage rider who is also a scientist has measured an experienced dressage rider using 8 lbs to give a half-halt.

"_Isn't this completely contradicting what you went on about before with your 'maths'??_ " - loosie

No. If riders said to themselves, "This is a good time to apply 5 lbs of pressure on the reins", they you would be right. However, no rider does that. You apply pressure on the reins to get a result, and release pressure (unless you are a ham-fisted idiot) when you get it. Thus if the horse is going to yield at 9 lbs, then 9 lbs is what he yields at - and the rider will give release at 9 lbs of rein pressure with a snaffle and 3 lbs of rein pressure (multiplied 3-fold thru the bit) in a standard curb.

Maybe it is just me, but I have never, ever tried to pull XX lbs on a rein. I just pull until I get the result needed. When I rotate my one wrist, however, I know I am putting vastly less pressure on the horse's mouth - even amplified 3-fold via a curb - than if I pull with all my strength using my back and shoulders on a snaffle. Yet Mia would ignore all that pressure on the snaffle and obey the rotated wrist on the curb.

That is why I know curbs are not effective through pain. I created much greater pressure (and probably pain) with a snaffle and had terrible results. Yet 3 bumps with my wrist in a curb stopped her even with a hundred cactus spines in her butt. 

How can vastly less pressure get more results?

A - by applying the pressure where it is more effective

B - by teaching the horse via only getting release when the rider says, and 

C - by NOT causing pain. 

A Billy Allen curb bit has nothing that can poke the horse's mouth. It has nothing that can crush the horse's cheek between bit and molar. Curbs will not cause a nutcracker effect, although many snaffles may. 

Tom Roberts, in his book on bits, points out a case where a polo player had caused bruises and bleeding in the mouth using a single joint snaffle. It caught the cheek between the bit & the teeth and crushed and lacerated the cheek. That cannot happen with a Billy Allen curb bit.

English riders value a horse bent at the poll for a near vertical face. That then means a straight pull on a snaffle applies pressure against the bars. When the head stretches out, as the OP says her horse will do, it changes where the pressure is applied, as in the X-ray below:








​ 
Please look closely at the difference between the left picture and the right one. The change is due to how the horse positions its head. I'd bet money the horse in picture 3 is experiencing pain. 

Now look at a curb X-ray. Since the top of the shank is held in one spot by the curb strap, continued pulling on the reins will rotate the bit. Which will be more effective by placement when the horse has stretched out?










Which is least likely, in that scenario, to cause pain, which is almost always detrimental to training? :?

"_Anyway, often so-called "less mild" bits work well precisely because they are in practice more mild, and people just don't quite understand the physics of how these bits operate. Increasing the pain levels on a horse isn't going to help anyone stop a horse: Quite the opposite - horses run from pain._"- SueC

Back when Mia was bolting all the darn time in either bitless or a snaffle, the best way to slow her was to call her name softly. When an ear flicked back, she was about to stop. I agree with one writer who said no one stops a horse who is bolting, they only stop a horse who has stopped bolting.

Pain makes running harder more likely, not less. Yet curbs are called curbs because curb means restrain. Hmmmm...something to think about.​


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms - the OP wants to ride English with contact and there are english bits that she could try without going western - but I don't think that's the right course of action anyway


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Here is the curb X-ray rotated until the nose is in the air. When the reins are pulled, however, where will the pressure be applied in the mouth? Food for thought.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> bsms - the OP wants to ride English with contact and there are english bits that she could try without going western - but I don't think that's the right course of action anyway


Jaydee, this thread has long since evolved to include a discussion about the harshness of curb bits. I've been told my using curb bits worked on Mia because I was hurting her more in the curb bit.

It is not uncommon for an HF thread to go well beyond the OP's original point. Most do. In any case, if I'm told my using a curb bit is controlling my horse thru pain and that I'm relying on a harsh bit to control my horse, then I think I have a right to respond.

And while she is going to go bitless, and hopefully that will work well for her, this discussion might be useful to her if bitless does not work. The horse doesn't care if a bit is western or English, and English riders usually teach horses to ride in slack reins as well.


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

I think the OP checked out of this thread on page 2.


----------



## falling (Apr 13, 2014)

Sorry, I wouldn't usually butt in but since I have been following this thread... English riders may ride with slack reins, but GENERALLY the point is to have contact and have the horse "on the bit." This cannot be accomplished correctly through the use of the curb imo. And bsms, you are here because you want to dissuade the notion that the curb is cruel, and I think everyone agrees that in the right hands every bit can be cruel and every bit can be gentle. 

The curb worked for you and your horse, and we can plainly see. BUT that doesn't mean it's going to work for another horse that looks to have a training issue, rather then a disobedience issue. Especially considering OP rides English (;

\Just my two cents/


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

updownrider said:


> I think the OP checked out of this thread on page 2.


Lolol

If one shows, then correct gear is needed. I have my dressage legal snaffle, a western snaffle, and a bosal. I use all three.

Most western riders I know just use a snaffle. Those who have horses that won't stop (a training issue) use a shanked bit.

This is a training issue. It takes time, patience, persistence, timing to get a horse going nicely in a snaffle. When the horse is great in the snaffle then the horse is ready for more of a bit. I would love to make my Arab a true western bridle horse. Don't know if I have the expertise to do so, nor do I know of a trainer that does. My dressage instructor is looking for me.

Who uses nine pounds of pressure on the reins? Sweet Jesus. If I used nine pounds of pressure my instructor would yank my off horse, and the little Arab would stomp my tush in the dirt.

Nine pounds? Really? Maybe I misread since I was skimming..... I have been accused of not READING people's posts before. In this case it may be true.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

falling said:


> Sorry, I wouldn't usually butt in but since I have been following this thread... English riders may ride with slack reins, but GENERALLY the point is to have contact and have the horse "on the bit." This cannot be accomplished correctly through the use of the curb imo.


Well, clearly I disagree. I do ride in contact with a mild curb bit, and have ridden in contact with a pelham (and snaffles, of course) - as explained in a previous post. I think a horse is more likely to make contact with a rider upon invitation if the horse is relaxed and comfortable, whatever bit is most conducive to that in a particular situation.




> And bsms, you are here because you want to dissuade the notion that the curb is cruel, and I think everyone agrees that in the right hands every bit can be cruel and every bit can be gentle.


And some more than others, and different situations matter, etc. I'd not personally put a beginner without an independent seat in a snaffle, for instance: I'd far rather put them in a mild curb, or wool-padded hackamore, to _protect the horse and its education to date_, and of course in practical terms, way before that, I stick the reins into the Ds of our flat stable halters and lead/lunge learners until they are closer to stable in motion... and I've noticed it also makes it easier on the beginner rider because the horse isn't tensing from bit aggravations on top of everything else (although it still has a fair amount of imbalance to contend with) - reducing the vicious cycle of poor riding - tense, hard-to-ride horse.

I think bsms is here for lots of reasons, and shouldn't be pigeonholed as the guy who writes curb propaganda. I for one think his contributions are frequently valuable. Bsms thinks out of the box, and that, in my experience, is a really valuable life skill.




> The curb worked for you and your horse, and we can plainly see. BUT that doesn't mean it's going to work for another horse that looks to have a training issue, rather then a disobedience issue. Especially considering OP rides English (;


As I do. ;-) And different bits (and bitless) are useful _tools_ in _training issues_, as I'm sure most of us agree. The "snaffle is best" or "bitless is best" or "curb is best", full stop, idea is just dogma. I do think it's really useful to be educated about what bits might work really well with what mouth configurations, riders, sports, and situations, and will once again recommend "Horse Control - the Bit" or a similar text from a person who has spent their lifetime working with "problem" horses and rider education (and in TRs case, ridden in cavalry in the war and subsequently in most horse sports imaginable), and who also has a clear understanding of physics and anatomy.

General comment: We could get into similar musical arguments on "Is the Suzuki method worse than the classical method of learning a classical instrument, just because it is usually quicker - what is a short cut to be looked down the nose upon, and what is a more effective method?" ...and as with horses and riders, it's a actually highly individual thing...

My personal line is about whether the horse is comfortable, calm and learning effectively. I think it can do that with various methods - but not all their variations. And I think good discussions broaden people's perspectives...

Hope you're all having a brilliant day, and enjoying this thread.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I used 9 lbs because a researcher measuring rein pressure measured 8 lbs for a half-halt. Since a fairly typical curb ratio give a 3-fold mechanical advantage, I used 9 instead of 8 to make the math easy.

Before I switched Mia to a curb, I used much more than 9 lbs when she wanted to bolt. The best way was to catch her just as she was starting to leap forward and turn her 180 (trails here are usually around 6-8 feet wide).

I used far more on the day I discovered how competitive she could be with another horse. She wasn't competitive in an arena, but it turns out she gets very competitive with a trail stretching out ahead. She was going full speed - not bolting, but racing - toward a 90 deg turn she would never have been able to hack, with cactus and rocks if she fell. A little side to side motion with the bit resulted in her swerving from side to side with cactus around us. So I braced and pulled with all my strength, using my backs and shoulders, and it didn't slow her even a tiny bit. I then tried a pulley rein stop. Thankfully, it worked...but I then had a very agitated horse. How much was due to pain and how much due to stopping against her will, I don't know. No blood in her mouth afterward, but I'm sure the pressure in her mouth was huge.

I switched her after that on the advice of an HF poster. 3 sessions in the arena, starting with ground work, and we went back to riding on trails. And she has stopped, quickly and without agitation, typically from rotating my wrist. I cannot use much force rotating my wrist, certainly not compared to pulling with my back & shoulders...yet she stopped every time. Stopped when scared. Stopped when her hind leg was covered with cactus spines. Stopped when trying to race. With my wrist (most of the time).

Why?

That success was inconsistent with the 'curb bits work thru leverage and pain'. But if curbs work thru where the pressure is applied, and when the horse can or cannot find release, then it starts to make sense. If one assumes the X-rays of a snaffle show how it can cause pain when the horse stretches out, then it is plausible that curbs work in part by being gentler. That would be consistent with what Tom Roberts wrote:"_To improve, a horse must learn; and to learn he must be calm. A sharp bit and the consequent pain from it destroys calmness...Horses oppose force or pain until they have been taught to yield to pressures; but even the best trained horses will revert if the force becomes painful enough. It is because of this tendency that bits which can become very painful should be avoided at all times. Any bit can start the horse resisting, but a snaffle has special disadvantages because it can become so much sharper and painful that the rider intends or often realizes._" - Chapters 1 & 7 "Horse Control and the Bit" ​IMHO the best single book on bits around, although somewhat outdated and utter English...but his advice is directly applicable to western riding as well. That is why one should not overdo the English/Western divide. My favorite books on riding are all English, and Tom Roberts was a riding instructor in the British Army. The first time I read his book, I didn't think much applied. The more often I read it and the more I try his advice, the more impressed I become. He knew HORSES.

Note for honesty: he also preferred a snaffle for most riding, and I admit that Mia is increasingly being ridden in a snaffle.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Hush, bsms, Tom Roberts is a well-kept Aussie secret! ;-)


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

_From SueC:
And some more than others, and different situations matter, etc. I'd not personally put a beginner without an independent seat in a snaffle, for instance: I'd far rather put them in a mild curb, or wool-padded hackamore, to protect the horse and its education to date, and of course in practical terms, way before that, I stick the reins into the Ds of our flat stable halters and lead/lunge learners until they are closer to stable in motion... and I've noticed it also makes it easier on the beginner rider because the horse isn't tensing from bit aggravations on top of everything else (although it still has a fair amount of imbalance to contend with) - reducing the vicious cycle of poor riding - tense, hard-to-ride horse.
_

I think beginner riders, or those that ride once a decade at a dude ranch, will hold on tight to the rein no matter what. they aren't holding the rein to effect a stop so much as they are holding on for security. they will have the rein tight whether it's a curb or a snaffle, and not know the difference. they will have no awareness of giving the horse a release when he has complied with the command to stop. they just now "ON". they don't know "OFF". 
For any horse you owned or cared about, which would you rather have in the non-stop "ON" position: a snaffle, or a curb?

and, if the horse CAN create some relief for himself in a snaffle by raising his head, then would you want or not want him to have that option, in the case where he is in the hands of a beginner?


----------



## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

In this line of thought, i'd never put a beginner in a curb bit or on a horse that needs a curb bit to restrain them. If I can't trust my horse in a snaffle or side pull with a beginner, the two do not belong together. 

I for one have horses that are too well broke and are too easily miscued in a curb. I've made the mistake of allowing my grandfather to ride in a curb on one of my mares. He can 'ride', but it's your old fashioned 'cowboy up' way with a tight rein, not much in the way of leg cues and all neck reining. He took up contact before he squeezed to go and she backed, when he squeezed she backed faster, and faster, and faster. Quickly, he became worried and pulled harder and she backed faster. It took him about a lap and a half around the arena at a back up at the speed of a slow trot before he'd give my mare her head and actually listen to me.

After that instance they rode around well enough but my grandfather doesn't have the softest hands in the world either. He made the mistake of trying to pull her to a stop and got much more than he bargained for. Since he was in a curb, the pressure he used was much more than in a snaffle. I had to help my poor grandfather first get off, then back into the saddle. My mare stopped hard enough that he was ejected and was riding her neck. I ended up asking her to lower her head more and he just awkwardly landed in the dirt from there. 

At this point, I banned him from a bit before he got himself into any trouble. In a side pull, he wasn't too rough on my mare and the cues weren't so 'loud' that she tried so hard. 

Occasionally, I give beginner riding lessons and I do so in a side pull, then a snaffle when my riders have earned a bit. When I teach beginners to ride, they are not allowed to neck rein. You can teach a beginner rider to control a horse much more effectively direct reining in the beginning. You need soft equipment with a beginner rider. They don't understand how much pressure to use, how to ask softly instead of jerking a horse around or how to balance with their seat instead of the reins. It would be borderline cruel IMO to ask my horses to try and tolerate that in anything more than a snaffle. Not to mention how much of a pain in the butt it would be for me to constantly have to soften my horses back up after being ridden in a curb. If I have a person who is just really not getting it, I tie my reins with frayed yarn or a few strands of hair. It's a quick wake up call for a rider to realize how much pressure they are using when they are causing themselves to lose their reins. I do not ever allow a rider to pull hard and in the process I teach them how to soften up a horse they are riding.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

BreakableRider said:


> In this line of thought, i'd never put a beginner in a curb bit or on a horse that needs a curb bit to restrain them. If I can't trust my horse in a snaffle or side pull with a beginner, the two do not belong together."


Hmmm... I think that really misses the finer points that have already been discussed... and discussed from the experience of people here, with horses and teaching beginning riders, and from some beginning riders themselves. And then it just kind of becomes opinion ping-pong, and fruitless - unlike an actual exploration of underlying ideas, and an opportunity to bust a few myths along the way.

A horse being less "trustworthy" if it works well in a curb again buys into some of the common myths around bits. The potential and actual damage snaffles can do to horse mouths with beginning riders is something I've seen for myself many times in different riding establishments.

Work a complete beginner rider bitless by all means: That's great. But in a snaffle? Frequently: Ouch! :-(

Duly noted, BR, that you start bitless before going to a snaffle. 

I remember reading a dressage and general riding critique book published by a German author covering the 1920s to the 1970s, and some of his photographs of little six-to-eight-year-old riders on massive Warmbloods riding with pelhams and double reins. The kids looked happy, and obviously had been riding a while, and the horses looked happy and were working in a relaxed manner at a trot, and he was making that very point about curb myths himself. He said the forgiving nature of a curb bit compared to a snaffle made them a better choice for beginner riders as it would be kinder to the horses, and therefore the riders too. His whole book looked basically at horse body language in various situations working with people: What was harmonious, and what wasn't.

I think it's better to work empirically like that, than to work off accepted dogmas that may not be correct.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> I think beginner riders, or those that ride once a decade at a dude ranch, will hold on tight to the rein no matter what.


Hey Caroline!  When we were learning to ride, it was impressed on us that we were not to see reins as safety lines for ourselves, and there was a fair bit of reprimanding if we forgot it. So that's one thing that can be done, and it's preferable to just letting people muddle on and horses' mouths cop abuse, but personally I think it doesn't go far enough: It's so much more sensible not to give a beginner reins connected to a bit until they have an independent seat and have learnt to balance reliably at all paces. I even heard of one place that starts all their arena students with a neck ring instead of a bridle, and how they have good results with what they do.

What's a dude ranch? No, don't let me speculate (it sounds so funny if you're Australian). :lol: Is that a trail-horses-for-hire place? How nice would it be if places where horses were subjected to inconsistent standards of riding all worked off side pulls or nice padded hackamores...




> ... they aren't holding the rein to effect a stop so much as they are holding on for security.


Which is why people who need security can be started with a thick cotton lead rope running back from the stable halter, or a grab-handle on the saddle front - or you can throw them in the deep end and lunge them without reins, depending on your approach and clientele. ;-)

And why people who use reins as grab handles should never have those reins connected to a bit.

And why people who are beginning to have independent seats should be started on the gentlest bits available - and that's not a metal jointed snaffle, IMO.




> they will have the rein tight whether it's a curb or a snaffle, and not know the difference. they will have no awareness of giving the horse a release when he has complied with the command to stop. they just now "ON". they don't know "OFF".


See comments above...




> For any horse you owned or cared about, which would you rather have in the non-stop "ON" position: a snaffle, or a curb?


First of all, I personally just wouldn't put a horse in that situation, as explained... and I see that as my responsibility to the horses, and riders too.

...and secondly, once I think the rider can start to learn to work with a bit (i.e. is NOT going to hang on to reins for security), I am dealing mainly with accidental roughness and jolting. I then use the gentlest possible bit for the horse (BTW transitioning through a padded hackamore first is also a nice possibility). There are some flexible soft-plastic unjointed snaffles ("Apple-mouths" and the like) which are far kinder for use with a beginning rider than metal snaffles, particularly jointed metal snaffles, and many horses would be fine with that.

If you're going to use a metal bit, then I'd want the potentially jarring force applied to the reins by the learning rider to be spread over a fair area and also spread over time - which is how a properly adjusted mild curb bit operates. The total force applied to the curb bit is spread over not just the bit but the chain as well, reducing the pressure (which is force per unit area) on the bars of the horse's mouth, for a given increment of force.

Additionally, because it takes time for the lever to turn in response to the reins, the resulting force on the horse's mouth is less jarring than a direct accidental jolt from a snaffle. Try actually mildly "jolting" reins attached to a mild curb such as the one I posted in the photograph earlier: The horse will get a very small force, if you compare it to a mild jolt from a snaffle, which is totally unbuffered.





> and, if the horse CAN create some relief for himself in a snaffle by raising his head, then would you want or not want him to have that option, in the case where he is in the hands of a beginner?


I certainly wouldn't want the horse to be in a situation where it would have to create relief for itself by learning to star-gaze. Have you ever looked at how many riding school horses in metal snaffles run around star-gazing and eventually develop upside-down necks, hollow backs and a complete lack of hindquarter engagement? And *then* people have the nerve to exclaim, "Why won't this darn horse go on the bit?" :shock:

That was one thing that riding school with the neck rings was commenting on: They had lots of photos showing how their horses worked in a remarkably enthusiastic and relaxed way with their (very well taught) complete beginners in their two-week full-time intensive crash course I was reading about. No raised heads and hollow backs and dragging hindquarters there.

A horse can create relief for itself in a curb bit by yielding its jaw, and if the rider is still hanging on, bringing the head even further back behind the vertical, thus creating slack in the rein (which actually temporarily removes the rider's "grab handle", unlike evading in a snaffle, which gives the rider something to continue to hang on to comfortably). - Bringing the head behind the vertical is, of course, also a bad defense habit to develop in a horse.

BTW, if the curb has *short* levers (like the one in the photo I posted) and the curb chain is set at the correct tension, then the force multiplication encountered at the far end of someone hanging off the reins (which they shouldn't be, but say in a fall) would be a lot less than people might expect. Try it yourself on your hand sometime and see! It's an interesting exercise.

And obviously, try a pelham with longer levers for comparison as well.

(If only we could be horses for a day and try these things out... might change how we view it. Next best thing, carefully observe your horse's body language in various situations...)


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

BreakableRider said:


> In this line of thought, i'd never put a beginner in a curb bit or on a horse that needs a curb bit to restrain them. If I can't trust my horse in a snaffle or side pull with a beginner, the two do not belong together.
> 
> .



I agree, but actually a true beginner I will not allow to use the reins at all until they can demonstrate balance without ever holding on with the hands.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

For a trail ride, I've put beginners who haven't ridden much or recently on our horses with a curb bit. They and the horse did fine because when you are riding in a western saddle with one hand, there is nothing instinctive about using the reins for balance or security. Not when you have the saddle horn, solid and unmoving, right in front of you:










If you were beginning and unbalanced in a western saddle, would you grab the solid looking thing next to your free hand, or try to stay on using 3-4 feet of rope attached to the horse's mouth? But if a horse DID start running in the desert, a bit designed for straight ahead stopping serves as a good emergency brake. To date, though, no one has used it for that. The one time Trooper started cantering on his own initiative, the girl hung on to the horn and was laughing when she caught up...

I also have only done this for trail rides, when the new rider is on Trooper or Cowboy and the 3 horses are actually just traveling together. We talk about neck reining, using your leg for steering, and that the bit is there as an emergency brake in case something bad happens. We also talk about giving the horse its head if something starts to go wrong.

I've taken group lessons, and watched my wife, daughter & DIL take lessons, and I haven't seen anyone try to use the reins for balance in a western saddle UNLESS they are posting. The one time I took a trail ride at a dude ranch, the horses all knew where they were going, how fast to go, and had no interest in their rider. I might as well have been a sack of canned goods.

I would NEVER start a rider in an English saddle with a curb bit, and I probably wouldn't start them with a snaffle either...but then, I'll probably always use a western saddle for a new rider. It has a horn for them to grab if they are losing balance. In addition, the tree distributes weight over a larger area which protects the horse from a new rider's bouncing.

I'm not suggesting curb bits are the only way to ride a horse. I like sidepulls for some horses, and snaffles work great for many of them. Right now, Mia is ridden more often in a snaffle (single joint O-ring) than a curb. Trooper is almost always ridden in a snaffle (French link half moon). I'm seriously considering getting a nice leather sidepull for Mia. I'm not thrilled with the Dr Cook bitless bridle, but I've met folks who have had excellent results with it.

My only objection is to the idea that curb bits are used to intimidate a horse via pain. They are a good tool for training a horse that stretches its head out to evade a snaffle. They are fun to ride when your goal is to never use them. I feel more confident giving my horse her head when she is nervous when she is in a curb. A paradox I learned from Tom Roberts is that my horse can relax more when I give her more freedom.

I know nothing about using a curb bit with constant contact. I tried using a western curb as a green rider with an extremely spooky horse, and it worked for us. Not by pain and intimidation, but by clarity, putting pressure in the optimum location, and by causing less pain than I was in those circumstances with a snaffle. They are just a tool for training. Not THE tool, just A tool.


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

bsms said:


> I used 9 lbs because a researcher measuring rein pressure measured 8 lbs for a half-halt. Since a fairly typical curb ratio give a 3-fold mechanical advantage, I used 9 instead of 8 to make the math easy.


Every horse is different, and every horse's needs will vary during each maneuver. There is no absolute in how much rein pressure a rider will apply to execute a half halt. A half halt is the combination of leg, seat, and hands. The amount of pressure on the mouth is going to depend on the amount of seat and leg applied specific to that actual transition.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms said:


> Jaydee, this thread has long since evolved to include a discussion about the harshness of curb bits.


Threads can often go off on tangents like this one but IMO in this case it's become pointless in terms of offering any real advice to anyone that actually wants to learn how to train their horse and themselves without using tools like harsher bits as the first 'go to'
After all her first post was asking if she should go back to the twisted snaffle not try long shanked western bits and the argument about whether or not they're harsh has only succeeded in the thread now offering no useful info at all on how she can work with this horse to make it better ride without resorting to a twisted snaffle or a leverage bit


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

bsms said:


> For a trail ride, I've put beginners who haven't ridden much or recently on our horses with a curb bit. They and the horse did fine because when you are riding in a western saddle with one hand, there is nothing instinctive about using the reins for balance or security. Not when you have the saddle horn, solid and unmoving, right in front of you:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 You haven't seen my husband ride.......lolololol.

The few times he has ridden he used the reins to balance, not the horn. I was trying to help with instruction, which, at no surprise, went over like a brick. UNTIL the two beautiful blondes turned and looked at my husband in the middle of the Wind River Range and said, and I quote, "you would do WELL to listen to your wife." 

It is amazing how a man will listen to a stranger if blonde, younger, and curvy. He was still balancing with the reins, but at least he relaxed his thighs and brought his hands down to an acceptable level.

"You would de WELL to listen to your wife." Still cracks me up, and is a great story to tell at parties, especially if acted out.....HA!


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

updownrider said:


> Every horse is different, and every horse's needs will vary during each maneuver. There is no absolute in how much rein pressure a rider will apply to execute a half halt. A half halt is the combination of leg, seat, and hands. The amount of pressure on the mouth is going to depend on the amount of seat and leg applied specific to that actual transition.


Thank you.


----------



## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

SueC said:


> Hmmm... I think that really misses the finer points that have already been discussed... and discussed from the experience of people here, with horses and teaching beginning riders, and from some beginning riders themselves. And then it just kind of becomes opinion ping-pong, and fruitless - unlike an actual exploration of underlying ideas, and an opportunity to bust a few myths along the way.
> 
> A horse being less "trustworthy" if it works well in a curb again buys into some of the common myths around bits. The potential and actual damage snaffles can do to horse mouths with beginning riders is something I've seen for myself many times in different riding establishments.
> 
> ...


After reading your post, I feel as if my point was lost along the way. A few pages back, I gave some nice advice about going to square one with a horse that is uneducated to the bit. This post was a follow up of sorts to show, less is more and that a beginner rider shouldn't be using a big bit, at least in my case. 

I also had a recent experience that I noted, my horses are too well broke to be ridden in a curb by beginners. If a horse has been moved to a curb, things are more subtle as cues are amplified. Perhaps the general public aren't riding horses that could be easily miscued, i'm not sure as i'm not on their horses. Mine however need the simplicity of a snaffle. Lifting the rein an inch off the neck is a cue to stop if I don't drive the horse into the bridle, moving your hand inches in any direction means something different. A beginner rider doesn't grasp these subtitles which is why things like my mare backing around the arena for a lap and a half happen, or her stopping hard enough to eject a rider. Going to a side pull first, dulls down those cues enough that everyone is happy and healthy. A rider can learn to ride without worrying about doing too much and I don't need to worry about retraining my horse.

As I don't ride english, I can't really get into the complexities of the differences. However, these kids that you comment about don't sound like beginners as I describe if they're working with double reins and at a trot. I can say that the opportunity to damage in a horses mouth isn't near what it could be in a western curb. Using two sets of reins, the idea is to primarily ride off the snaffle rein and to use the curb for more subtle communication, correct? Besides having more leverage and no snaffle rein, a western curb often has a much different mouthpiece. When I want to get subtle, my horses can ride in a cathedral port with fixed cheeks. It is not a bit to ride direct reining with a beginner. There is no movement in the bit, it's great for neck reining but not direct. 

To say a curb is better for a beginner than a snaffle is such a blanket statement that doesn't account for differences. 

Are we talking a low hinged port with short shanks or a spade bit? Are we talking about a singled joined loose ring snaffle or a more stable D ring with a french link? Are we talking about a backward trail horse that's a point and shoot kind of guy or a finished reiner, western pleasure horse or something else? 

Or are we saying an english curb is more gentle which is a whole new ball game. 

At the end of the day, it comes down to an individual horse and rider IMO. What works for my horses may not work for someone else.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It is very much down to individual horses (and riders too)
I have a horse here that will stop on a sixpence from a brisk canter with the slightest touch on a Happy Mouth shaped mullen mouth snaffle but if someone got too heavy with her she'd duck behind the bit, head on chest and no brakes at all


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Actually, I appreciate the invitation to rethink my assumption that a snaffle is the better choice for a beginner, or occasional (dude ranch) hourly rental rider.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Most of the horses in those set ups (like UK trekking centres) have dead mouths from years of people hanging on to them - fortunately they also have more 'whoa' than 'go' and generally follow the leader crocodile fashion.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

christopher said:


> leverage exchanges distance for force, so the "rotation of the wrist" action that bsms describes would have put more pressure on the horses mouth in a snaffle than the same action would've in a curb.


Huh? I don't get how you got to that conclusion. Anyway, BSMS was saying the snaffle DIDN'T put enough pressure on, because the horse 'evaded' it in that postition. 



> and responsiveness to pressure on the bars of the mouth doesn't specifically imply responsiveness to pressure on the teeth.


Exactly! Because the teeth are insensitive, so the 'pressure' is not painful if resisted/braced against there. The horse learns to 'yield' to gentle pressure, in order to avoid 'heavier'. Agree with the rest of what you've said too. Hope a different perspective gives further clarity ;-)



> I don't think bsms was after a shortcut when he figured out why curbs can work well for some horses. they just allow him to apply his cues in a way that is more consistent regardless of his horses head carriage.


Yeah, maybe he wasn't aiming for a 'short cut'(remember he says he was an inexperienced rider on a green horse) but found one:wink:. *In case you missed it, *in conjunction with good training*, no one's(well, I'm not) saying that's necessarily a bad thing either. I'm thinking tho the reason was more *effective*(ie 'stronger', not easy to ignore) pressure rather than consistency of aids though. I only 'know' BSms here, but from what little you can 'know' from a person's words, I suspect he probably already appreciated the importance of consistency, just the he was finding pulling back on 2 reins with a snaffle... consistently ineffective!:lol:


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

sarahfromsc said:


> And get prepared for the horse to throw every evasion tactic at you: giraffe neck, nose out, nose behind the vertical, sucking the bit, bracing the jaw, bracing the poll, just to name a few. Work through them one at a time.


Ezacly! After all, the horse only wants to find comfort, and is trying different things to see what works. Just got to make sure only the 'right' answers work... **and make sure they work effectively too. It's not just the 'punishment' of Wrong Answers with 'pressure', but the effective reinforcement of Right Answers that is vital to good training - the timing of the *release*.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'll add that I taught Mia to evade the snaffle. Not intentionally, but that happens when a green rider and green horse combine. Trying to hold a horse back by never really releasing the reins is not effective and it will harden the mouth. Since no one else wanted her, we have muddled our way thru things together. If we used a shortcut or bandaid...well, sometimes shortcuts and bandaids work.

Mia may also be one of those horses who really does have a preference in approach. She likes being the leader. It may be that slack reins are important to her in letting her think SHE is making the choices. She certainly seems to build confidence from being allowed to figure things out with minimal direction from me.

It may be what the lady I took lessons from a few years back was trying to teach us: Don't try to make the horse make the right choice. Limit the bad ones, and let the horse choose the right choice.

Trooper prefers to be told exactly what to do. He does not like choices. I think Mia prefers to figure it out with support from her rider. When she 'owns' the decision, she carries it out better. Learning how to handle different horses differently is part of what folks mean by "equine tact".


----------



## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

loosie said:


> Huh? I don't get how you got to that conclusion. Anyway, BSMS was saying the snaffle DIDN'T put enough pressure on, because the horse 'evaded' it in that position.


well using the picket puller example you gave, the further along the handle you move your hand, the more power you gain, but the more movement you lose. so 1 foot of movement at the end of the handle might only translate to 1cm of movement at the picket.

same is true with bits, if you move your hands an inch with a snaffle, it will translate to more movement of the mouthpiece (and so more pressure on the horses mouth) than if you moved your hands an inch with a curb. the tradeoff is that per inch of movement you will feel less resistance (i.e. it will be physically easier) with a curb than with a snaffle.

also I don't think bsms said that the snaffle didn't put enough pressure on, instead said that the snaffle didn't put the pressure in the right place given the circumstance. in fact he said a number of times that even after the leverage had been taken into account, his horse would've experienced less pressure with the curb than with the snaffle.



loosie said:


> Exactly! Because the teeth are insensitive, so the 'pressure' is not painful if resisted/braced against there. The horse learns to 'yield' to gentle pressure, in order to avoid 'heavier'. Agree with the rest of what you've said too. Hope a different perspective gives further clarity ;-)


it's not that the pressure isn't painful enough if it's against the teeth. it's more that pressure on the bars and pressure on the teeth are clearly different stimuli so can't be expected to elicit the same response.


----------



## WildAtHeart (Jul 17, 2013)

Soft hands make soft horses. It is true. Always ask for the cue in the way you want your horses to respond to it first...you want your horse to respond to soft cues so always ask very softly at first. If the horse does not respond increase the pressure until he does. The very instant he listens the pressure is released.

As for standing still, my ottb mare was the same. At first she would barely stand for a second. You should set a goal, something slightly challenging but that can be accomplished. For me, my first goal was getting her to stand for the count of two. I continued to ask her to whoa every time she walked off until she stood for the count of two and then walked when I asked. Next ride we bumped it up to three then four and so on. Baby steps but it works. She will now stand as long as I ask her to =)


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

bsms said:


> Trooper prefers to be told exactly what to do. He does not like choices.


Do you think that could be due to previous training, that he's afraid of making wrong choices? This is a common problem for many horses. There was a recent thread about 'reteaching heart' or some such about it.


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Most of the horses in those set ups (like UK trekking centres) have dead mouths from years of people hanging on to them - fortunately they also have more 'whoa' than 'go' and generally follow the leader crocodile fashion.


 
Except those that have actually been trained correctly (even if only at the start of their lives) often respond well to someone who can ride and gives them the correct cues from pressure and release. When a rider just hangs on then they tune out, my haffy will do the same if I ask in a demanding way without the release (something I briefly tried through frustration before I realised it was a huge mistake.)


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

christopher said:


> same is true with bits, if you move your hands an inch with a snaffle, it will translate to more movement of the mouthpiece (and so more pressure on the horses mouth) than if you moved your hands an inch with a curb.


Yes, I understand how leverage works. But you seem to be saying tho that while leverage(shank length when talking bits) increases force, that snaffles, without leverage are stronger than one with??:think:



> also I don't think bsms said that the snaffle didn't put enough pressure on, instead said that the snaffle didn't put the pressure in the right place given the circumstance. in fact he said a number of times that even after the leverage had been taken into account, his horse would've experienced less pressure with the curb than with the snaffle.


Yes, I had noticed that he kept saying those things, which is why I suspect I'm not being clear enough as to what I mean. What I'm trying to get at is WHY it works/doesn't. Eg. I just don't accept what you say below, that the pressure of a snaffle braced against teeth is likely to be anywhere near as uncomfortable(& probably not likely painful) as pressure on sensitive bars. So it is indeed about the amount of 'pressure', that just cannot be effectively applied, when pulling straight back on 2 reins with a snaffle & horse who's learned how to block it. 

I do indeed believe that, with whatever equipment, using negative reinforcement(pressure/release) does indeed mean working with discomfort & sometimes actual pain(of course, a good trainer minimises/avoids causing pain/serious discomfort where possible, but I just don't get the whole denial of that even being a possibility. That it's just 'escalating the pressure', nothing to do with pain... Less so the assertions that a snaffle causes pain & is 'harsh' & 'unclear' but a curb isn't.... or vice versa. I do personally think, with the leverage & placement of the bit(always on sensitive bars), a curb bit *can* be more 'severe' in incompetent hands or on an untrained horse, but that's probably marginal, and I agree wholeheartedly with Breakable's reply re 'earning' a bit. Tend to agree with the basic premise of what I know of the vaquero line of thinking, that a horse 'graduates' from a halter/bosal, to a snaffle, then 'finishes' with a curb.

And had a chuckle over your Grandpa too Breakable! Hope not much more than pride was bruised, as it was with a similar experience I had of my own father... teaching him to ride so he could accompany me riding to my wedding. After that 'lesson' he went equipped with a whole spare suit on the day, for 'Justin'!:lol::lol:


----------



## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

loosie said:


> Yes, I understand how leverage works. But you seem to be saying tho that while leverage(shank length when talking bits) increases force, that snaffles, without leverage are stronger than one with??:think:


per inch of rein movement they are. just like per inch of handle movement a picket puller will move a picket more if your hand is closer to the fulcrum (i.e. has less leverage).

obviously a leverage bit is going to have potential to cause greater power than a snaffle, but when you measure pressures (i.e. cues) like "Lifting the rein an inch off the neck is a cue", "moving your hand inches in any direction means something different", "rotating a wrist worked with a western curb" or even 9lbs of pressure after leverage had been accounted for (3lbs. of pull multiplied by 3 through leverage) vs 9lbs. of pull with a snaffle, then a leverage bit is not specifically stronger. it is just different in it's action and in some cases that can help. in others it can hinder. hardly comparable to a twisted wire snaffle which is just a stronger version of the same thing.



loosie said:


> Eg. I just don't accept what you say below, that the pressure of a snaffle braced against teeth is likely to be anywhere near as uncomfortable(& probably not likely painful) as pressure on sensitive bars.


whether it's more or less aversive is irrelevant, the point is that the appropriate response is not paired with the different stimulus. i.e. no amount of teaching the horse to stop/slow down from pressure on it's bars will also teach the horse that it should stop/slow down from pressure on it's teeth.



loosie said:


> I do indeed believe that, with whatever equipment, using negative reinforcement(pressure/release) does indeed mean working with discomfort & sometimes actual pain(of course, a good trainer minimises/avoids causing pain/serious discomfort where possible, but I just don't get the whole denial of that even being a possibility. That it's just 'escalating the pressure', nothing to do with pain...


it is just escalating pressure. any pain is incidental. hugely undesirable morally and because it can lead to evasions that are occasionally effective, in which case a bad habit can be formed that might need a piece of equipment (like a rotating bit) to solve if the circumstances don't allow any other methods (i.e. cactus)



loosie said:


> I do personally think, with the leverage & placement of the bit(always on sensitive bars), a curb bit *can* be more 'severe' in incompetent hands or on an untrained horse, but that's probably marginal


depends what you mean by severe. if you're going to pull very hard then a curb is more severe because of it's mechanical advantage but if you're going to be very jerky (seesawing, shouldn't exist but it does so I'll mention it) on the reins then the snaffle is _easily_ more severe because it's 1:1 ratio means more of your hands momentum will be put into the mouthpiece. not a good thought either way.
but it certainly isn't a case of "snaffle = gentler than leverage bit because snaffles have no leverage"



loosie said:


> Tend to agree with the basic premise of what I know of the vaquero line of thinking, that a horse 'graduates' from a halter/bosal, to a snaffle, then 'finishes' with a curb.


yeah me too. and I tend not to even bother with a curb unless a horses discipline requires it, that's probably more cultural than anything else though. but understanding that it isn't always a case of "bigger bit syndrome" doesn't hurt


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"I just don't accept what you say below, that the pressure of a snaffle braced against teeth is likely to be anywhere near as uncomfortable(& probably not likely painful) as pressure on sensitive bars. So it is indeed about the amount of 'pressure', that just cannot be effectively applied, when pulling straight back on 2 reins with a snaffle & horse who's learned how to block it."

Actually, that is why I asked in post #2 if the horse stretches out its head when resisting a snaffle. It is a specific evasion of a snaffle bit that allows the horse to largely ignore the rider.

With a curb, that evasion is meaningless. Pressure continues in the optimum place until the RIDER releases it. That makes a curb a good tool to teach the horse that it cannot evade the pressure.

When Mia was determined to race Trooper, and I braced my thighs against the poleys and used all of my back and arms to pull, I probably applied 150 lbs or more or pressure. It didn't impress Mia at all. She was willing to accept that in exchange for the fun of running.

With a curb, when she brushed against the cactus and had a hundred spines in her leg (pain), she stopped in 3 one handed bumps on the curb, mostly from taking the slack out and then rotating my wrist. Let's assume I rotated one wrist with a force of 10 lbs. Multiplied by 3 (leverage), that is 30 lbs of mouth pressure. She stopped in 3 bumps, which kept us just out of a large cactus patch. From "OOWWW!!!" to full stop was about 3-4 seconds...with the curb. The cactus incident took place about a month after I switched her to a curb.

Hmmm...150+ lbs / snaffle / no effect on an excited horse. 30 lbs of mouth pressure / curb / horse in pain stops.

My conclusion was that she didn't stop better in a curb because of increasing pressure via leverage to cause pain, because I had applied much greater mouth pressure with the snaffle when she had less reason to run. Many people believe curbs work by multiplying pressure and thus pain, but that theory of operations did not explain what I had seen. My theory does. I always prefer a theory that explains the facts I've seen to one that is contradicted by what I've seen.

Other considerations followed. I tried rotating the curb shanks in her mouth until the curb strap engaged with my finger tips under the bridle at the poll - and there was no poll pressure. 

I watched from the ground as the weight of the reins rotated the shanks until the curb strap was tight, with no visible change in bit position and no concern whatsoever from my horse. Then I tried rotating the shanks until the curb strap tightened using the tip of my thumb and index finger, barely touching the reins...and it worked. That meant there was virtually no pressure in her mouth until the curb strap tightens - a few ounces times 3 is still something well under a pound.

That meant the curb bit had a built in period of rotating shanks that the horse's lips and tongue could feel - a very distinct cue - that would always precede any mouth pressure. Hmmm...so if I worked to cue her in that range, I could give her precise, easily felt cues that involved no pressure. That means a curb bit is potentially gentler than a snaffle or bitless, because you can have easily discerned cues that involve no pressure on the face or mouth.

Looking at pictures and then trying it on the ground next to my horse, I found that the shanks have rotated and the curb strap starts to engage a little before all the slack is out of the reins. That makes it easy for me to judge from the saddle if the curb strap has tightened - if the slack is mostly gone or gone, it has and pressure is starting in the mouth.

I zoomed in on the original photo. The reins are not quite straight, but the curb strap has tightened:










As an imperfect rider with no instructor, this makes it easy for me to gauge if I am operating in the 'no pressure zone' or starting to apply pressure to her mouth. For a trail ride, I'd like to make the entire ride in the no pressure zone.

For arena work, I like a snaffle better. It is a small arena, we tend to work on turns, and I think the snaffle allows me greater precision in lateral flexing than a curb bit does. I also need to follow her head motion in a canter with my hand, and it is gentler to practice that without leverage. My reins have metal clips that jangle some when cantering unless you take the slack out of the reins. With a snaffle, I can take most of the slack out, prevent the jangling, and still not apply much pressure to her mouth.

I realize many people move to a curb bit so they can better dominate their horse. If bits are about communication, and someone moves to a curb bit because they want to cuss loudly, then they - the riders who want to cuss - are despicable.

But curbs can be a good option for training a specific problem. They can also be a very gentle way of riding, and great for a horse who needs to be a part of the decision making process.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Thanks for your input Christopher! It helps clarify things I reckon. Agree with your post basically.



christopher said:


> whether it's more or less aversive is irrelevant, the point is that the appropriate response is not paired with the different stimulus. i.e. no amount of teaching the horse to stop/slow down from pressure on it's bars will also teach the horse that it should stop/slow down from pressure on it's teeth.


I don't think the 'level of aversive' is irrelevant, although I get what you're saying & agree in that context, that it's vastly more about training. We know that horses don't generalise well & different 'feels'(or places, people...) don't necessarily equate to previous lessons 'known'. Eg. if your horse has only ever been ridden in a bit, probably not the best move to just jump on with a halter & go for it, without a bit of 'retraining'!:lol: But knowing this, I personally do seek to 'generalise' lessons from the start, for eg teaching a horse to yield to all sorts of 'pressure', so that, even though I start them in a halter, they do indeed 'get', with minor & few 'misunderstandings', how to yield to gentle pressure with a bit. And pressure on the bit is also not the only 'cue' either.



> it is just escalating pressure. any pain is incidental.


Yes! But being incidental doesn't mean it's irrelevant, it is part of the 'equation' and with good training, the horse will learn to minimise & 'switch off' the discomfort through 'right' behaviour. But with any aversive to be effective, it needs to be 'strong' enough for the horse to think twice about resisting it, just leaning on it. You could say 'negative reinforcement' works through the _threat_ of further discomfort/pain.



> if you're going to pull very hard then a curb is more severe because of it's mechanical advantage but if you're going to be very jerky (seesawing, shouldn't exist but it does so I'll mention it) on the reins then the snaffle is _easily_ more severe


I don't know about easily more, I'd say marginal the other way & depends how rough you are with the curb, or the 'see saw' but yes, you're talking about rough, untrained horse/rider. That's why I want horse & rider at a certain level of training before 'graduating' to ANY bit. And that's not to say you _can't_ hurt a horse in a bitless contraption either...



> It is a specific evasion of a snaffle bit that allows the horse to largely ignore the rider.
> 
> With a curb, that evasion is meaningless. Pressure continues in the optimum place until the RIDER releases it. That makes a curb a good tool to teach the horse that it cannot evade the pressure.


Firstly, I agree with the above fully. I've tried to say, that 'shortcut' type measure or otherwise, it's not at all necessarily a bad thing, but to caution the use without, and impress the importance of, _training_ the horse to yield to whatever pressure. & I know you do already appreciate the importance too.

But IMO just because back then you couldn't see a way of _effectively_ using the snaffle without getting really 'severe' and that a curb has worked for you in this situation, doesn't mean to say that snaffles are useless or harsher or less clear. Sometimes you just need to find a different approach, which I find is far more about the way 'tools' are used, more than the tools themselves. That's about the gist of it. 



> My conclusion was that she didn't stop better in a curb because of increasing pressure via leverage to cause pain, because I had applied much greater mouth pressure with the snaffle


As you have pointed out, & I've also agreed, it is the placement of the 'pressure' which is the big difference in this case, but just because *you* exerted a heap more force against her teeth doesn't mean that SHE doesn't feel more discomfort/pain when the bit pressure is against her sensitive bars. 



> That meant the curb bit had a built in period of rotating shanks that the horse's lips and tongue could feel - a very distinct cue - that would always precede any mouth pressure. Hmmm...so if I worked to cue her in that range, I could give her precise, easily felt cues that involved no pressure.


Yes! Excellent! And it sounds like you were astute in studying those specifics, and *recognising their importance*. But the difference without other training in this situation with curb vs snaffle is that 'pressure'(light to begin, but if she resisted that??) on sensitive structures _could/did_ happen with the curb if she 'resisted' the lighter cues. That's what gives the 'light cues' their meaning.



> That means a curb bit is potentially gentler than a snaffle or bitless, because you can have easily discerned cues that involve no pressure on the face or mouth.


That bit doesn't add up IMO. It's a common belief, that you can't have 'refined' communication & movements without a bit(you're the first I've heard to suggest you can't with a snaffle, tho I've heard 'dressage-y types' say you can't have it in Western gear/style, with a loose rein), but I don't accept it. For starters, there are multiple other 'cues' you can use without even touching reins. Again, it comes back to training IMO. :wink:


----------



## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

loosie said:


> Thanks for your input Christopher! It helps clarify things I reckon. Agree with your post basically.


thanks. despite what it may seem I'm not here to be argumentative or annoying. I just like to wring out ideas to their fullest so I and whoever reads this might understand things a bit better.


loosie said:


> I don't think the 'level of aversive' is irrelevant, although I get what you're saying & agree in that context, that it's vastly more about training. We know that horses don't generalise well & different 'feels'(or places, people...) don't necessarily equate to previous lessons 'known'. Eg. if your horse has only ever been ridden in a bit, probably not the best move to just jump on with a halter & go for it, without a bit of 'retraining'!:lol: But knowing this, I personally do seek to 'generalise' lessons from the start, for eg teaching a horse to yield to all sorts of 'pressure', so that, even though I start them in a halter, they do indeed 'get', with minor & few 'misunderstandings', how to yield to gentle pressure with a bit. And pressure on the bit is also not the only 'cue' either.


yeah of course. that's good training practice.



loosie said:


> Yes! But being incidental doesn't mean it's irrelevant, it is part of the 'equation' and with good training, the horse will learn to minimise & 'switch off' the discomfort through 'right' behaviour. But with any aversive to be effective, it needs to be 'strong' enough for the horse to think twice about resisting it, just leaning on it. You could say 'negative reinforcement' works through the _threat_ of further discomfort/pain.


definitely. and that's why it's pretty safe to assume that because bsms' (and plenty of other's I've seen firsthand) horse seemed happy enough to lean on/run through and not respond to pressure on its teeth when that same horse is normally responsive to pressure on its bars that pressure on the teeth has less reinforcement value than pressure on the bars. also that pressure on the teeth hadn't been paired with the appropriate response.



loosie said:


> I don't know about easily more, I'd say marginal the other way & depends how rough you are with the curb, or the 'see saw' but yes, you're talking about rough, untrained horse/rider. That's why I want horse & rider at a certain level of training before 'graduating' to ANY bit. And that's not to say you _can't_ hurt a horse in a bitless contraption either...


not a perfect example but when you exchange psi on the horses mouth for kph of car speed, a jerky footed driver (seesawing rider) in 1st gear will give a much rougher ride than the same jerky footed driver in 5th gear. although 5th gear (curb bit) is indeed capable of more kph (psi on horses mouth), 1st gear (snaffle bit) is capable of a proportionally "harsher" ride.

especially considering cues given, and whether or not someone has "soft" or "harsh" hands, seem to be more often than not measured in inches of hand movement rather than psi on the reins.


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

To be honest, I think the reason snaffles fail for some and they end up using a lot of force with them is because the rider does not have the correct timing skills to teach the horse softness which with some horses takes a great deal of time and patience and not something a green rider would necessarily be capable of. In my opinion then upping the severity to a curb with a green rider in order to get a short cut to that softness is not a good thing at all. A curb used by an experienced rider with totally independent hands and seat (being able to use the seat to control speed) is fine but usually as a progression to it not a direct path.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

christopher said:


> thanks. despite what it may seem I'm not here to be argumentative or annoying. I just like to wring out ideas to their fullest so I and whoever reads this might understand things a bit better.


Ditto, absolutely!:wink: As far as I'm concerned, this is a discussion - maybe debate(but I'm still not sure we *really* disagree with much:lol - to look into the different factors(& opinions) of getting horses to respond to light 'pressure'.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_It's a common belief, that you can't have 'refined' communication & movements without a bit(you're the first I've heard to suggest you can't with a snaffle, tho I've heard 'dressage-y types' say you can't have it in Western gear/style, with a loose rein), but I don't accept it. For starters, there are multiple other 'cues' you can use without even touching reins_." - loosie

My point was that the curb gives a very easily felt cue during rotation, prior to pressure. In a design like the Billy Allen, with independent shanks, you can rotate the left side while not moving the right. Or you can use a leading rein, and the fully independent shank on that side will again move in a way that would be very obvious to the horse but not involve pressure on the mouth. All other things being equal, I think a bit that allows very easily discerned cues without pressure is superior for training and use to a bit that gives muddled cues, requires pressure to cue, or to any set up that gives a vague cue.

I don't know of any other bit or bitless design that allows the horse's lip and tongue - very sensitive areas - to feel something distinct without applying any pressure to the bars or tongue. I also do not know of any bitless design that gives as clear a cue via the reins as a bit, because the lips, tongue and bars are such sensitive areas.

That does not mean we are limited to cues inside the mouth. One of the things I loved about Littauer was that he gave his philosophy about riding as a basis for understanding why he made the decisions he did about seat, cues, etc.

My philosophy in riding is that I want to stay out of the mouth as much as possible. If I must reach into the mouth, I want to do so with movement but without pressure. Pressure in the mouth should always - in my idea of good riding - be the last resort. Bitless stays out of the mouth, but does so with mushy cues given via the reins. I want to work Mia back into a sidepull, but a sidepull lacks the precision of a Billy Allen curb.

"_In my opinion then upping the severity to a curb with a green rider in order to get a short cut to that softness is not a good thing at all._" - Clava

Why do you think a curb is upping severity, when it is easy to use with less pressure than a snaffle? I did so as a green rider. Why can't others?

"_just because *you* exerted a heap more force against her teeth doesn't mean that SHE doesn't feel more discomfort/pain when the bit pressure is against her sensitive bars._" - loosie

Actually, my point included the idea that pressure against the more sensitive bars is much more effective. Yes, that is because it causes discomfort to a horse who is refusing to yield. But that pressure only exists while the horse is refusing, so it becomes easy to teach the horse to yield rather than fight. And ultimately, a horse who will fight a snaffle thru 4-5 180 deg turns and 3-5 attempts to leap into a bolt will experience more pain and risk of injury than a horse who yields to a curb in a couple of bumps.

If you have a horse who will fight a snaffle, a curb is a great tool to teach it to yield to the rider...but not because a curb is painful and a snaffle is not. It is because of how and when the horse gets relief and who controls the relief.


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

> Why do you think a curb is upping severity, when it is easy to use with less pressure than a snaffle? I did so as a green rider. Why can't others?


 Because it causes more pain with less pressure, green riders can rarely control the pressure (as they are often dealing with balance control as well) so more accidental over pulls are more likely. A green rider also has less understanding of how crucial the seat is to control pace and speed and direction and command of the horse. Depending upon the bit for a quick fix is often the product of a problem or lacking somewhere else in the rider's body. A beginner painter can use a broad brush but might not have the control for a finer one, but when pain is the measure it is more of an issue.


----------



## falling (Apr 13, 2014)

Any updates about OP's situation? I would be interested to know how things are going


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

bsms said:


> My point was that the curb gives a very easily felt cue during rotation, prior to pressure. ...I don't know of any other bit or bitless design that allows the horse's lip and tongue


It doesn't actually need to be lip & tongue pressure. But if that's what you want, a snaffle, for one is one of many bits that can achieve that too. ;-)



> If I must reach into the mouth, I want to do so with movement but without pressure. Pressure in the mouth should always - in my idea of good riding - be the last resort.


Yes, that is one basic of decent training IMO. 'Heavy' 'pressure' that is. (& I'm talking about the horse's perspective of that, not yours) I don't think, trained & executed well, there is a problem at all with English style constant 'light contact' tho.



> Bitless stays out of the mouth, but does so with mushy cues given via the reins.


That's just rubbish IME. But the hands on the reins may well be 'mushy', so you're not getting results. 



> Why do you think a curb is upping severity, when it is easy to use with less pressure than a snaffle? I did so as a green rider. Why can't others?


I'm just really bamboozled by this continued assertion, despite saying you understand leverage, position of bit, etc. You are using leverage, AND the bit is kept in a vastly more sensitive position, so yet again, just because YOU are exerting less force does not equate to the horse FEELING less.



> Actually, my point included the idea that pressure against the more sensitive bars is much more effective. Yes, that is because it causes discomfort to a horse who is refusing to yield.


And then you go and say that, which seems to agree with my above, and contradict precisely what you've been arguing about...:?:?:? Do you see my confusion now??


----------



## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

bsms said:


> Of course, I sometimes get the feeling I'm the only person on the Internet who has a horse who doesn't always just obey me out of love, or because I'm just such an awesome leader that she always wants to do my will.


i get that feeling too ....


----------



## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

i really feel like i should be congratulating myself on making it through the entire thread in 2 sittings

ton of good information -- thanks everyone


----------

