# Leaning too far forward - advice wanted



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I have no real suggestions on saddles as I don't ride English, but have you done much no-stirrup work? That's generally a really good way to help you find your natural balance.

I'm sure there are others here that can suggest some really good exercises to help you, but it may come down to just sheer willpower...reminding yourself every single instant while riding to sit up straight and keep those shoulders back. Re-training your body to ride differently than you're used to takes a lot of work and a lot of time, but it can be done. Trust me, I've had to re-train my own body to get rid of some bad habits picked up when I was younger. I still struggle with some of them, but those struggles are infrequent and I usually only have to remind myself once and then my body sort of fixes the problem.

Don't give up and don't get discouraged! It takes time and work but all things can be improved.


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## makin tracks (Jan 25, 2009)

Sounds like a balance issue. It certainly doesn't help if both you and your horse are unbalanced. 

Do you have the same tilting problem on another more balanced mount?

We all tend to the foetal thing when we feel threatened and it takes concentration to stop doing it.

I know this is personal, but if you have a big bust do you have a really good support bra? My daughter found this helped her a bit as it stopped the bouncing and discomfort.

Next, your saddle does fit correctly doesn't it? It isn't too high at the front as this encourages you to lean forward to try and sit centrally.

I'm not sure what exactly a hunt seat saddle is but I'm guessing it has a more forward seat? And you say the Wintec 2000 makes you worse. As an Allpurpose saddle this also has a more forward cut.

Perhaps you could borrow a dressage saddle for a few rides, as these are designed to make you sit 'up' more and keep you in a more centralised position. Just to see if it makes a difference.

We can't all afford to purchase different saddles so we have to learn to ride in what we've got but it you could borrow one for a short time it will be one more thing you can discount.

Another thing that we used to have to do as kids is ride with a crop or whip behind our back and threaded through our elbows. It's not the easiest riding in the world but it does stop you collapsing in your middle. Once again, just for short periods in a controlled environment.

Having said all that, think about your legs aswell. They are your safety belt so if they are not holding the horse correctly then you won't have that lower stabity. A lot of learners (i'm not saying you are necessarily a learner) don't hold the horse with their legs so therefore their legs are moving all over the place and it is extremely difficult to sit centrally when your lower body is moving back and forward.

Just a few thoughts. I'm sure others will have plenty more.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

I find, really when it comes to position, and I've had the gamete of position fix ups to do that you really have to focus, focus, focus when riding, in fact one should focus more on their position 10x more than that of the horse. It really takes a person thinking actively while riding, and repetition. I've had the looking down problem (and still fall into it occasionally) the leaning forward issue....just load of different things. 

Sometimes it's better to just bring things back to a walk and get it perfect then progress to a jog then a trot slowing perfecting yourself at each gait. Take ONE thing and work on it until you've got it down packed then move one to the next thing.....and I'm talking about position, not the horse:wink:


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Wait, people are saying you're a "terrible rider" ??

What?!??

We need videos, pronto. I am pretty sure you are not and seeing a video of you ride (or a picture) will help us to tell you why you're leaning forward.. and to assure you that you aren't a terrible rider.

Man, how rude of them..


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Agreed, Sky. It's _not_ okay for them to call you a terrible rider. Nobody is perfect and we all have our faults (both large and small) that we struggle with.

Some riders are not as strong or experienced as others, but that doesn't make them "terrible riders", it just means that they have a lot to learn and may benefit from some help instead of degradation. And, regardless of how a person rides or how experienced they are, if they are trying to learn, then there is always _something_ good to say about how they are riding.

I agree about the video/pictures as well. If you are able, perhaps some of the more experienced English eyes here can give you some suggestions of things to work on.


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## Doodlesweaver (Dec 12, 2012)

These are all such great ideas and tips!! I'm so glad I asked this question. 

smrobs, really appreciate what you shared about learning to retrain your body position and also the importance of not getting discouraged and sticking with it. I do get frustrated. The good news is I'm better than I was last fall when we worked together. We've been working on walk/trot/canter transitions and really trying to sit up through those. 

makin tracks - I did do better on a more balanced mare I used to ride. Her trot was smoother, not like riding my guy's "trampoline trot." I am more top heavy now, not uncomfortable from a riding perspective, but wonder if the biomechanics might have something to do with it. 

I wonder if it even makes sense to buy a saddle until I lose weight. I will look into borrowing a dressage saddle if I can find one. Will also try putting the crop behind my elbows. Hadn't heard that one before and it's an excellent idea. 

Maybe riding bareback a few times might help my balance. I notice the kids seem to be so balanced when they ride their ponies and horses bareback. My legs need a lot of work, too. That's for sure. 

Muppetgirl - I think your pick up on the having to "focus, focus, focus" is very important. It's nice to know you've had problems, too. Guess I was feeling like I was almost alone out there. Definitely agree and will remember your point about paying 10x more attention to my position than the horse's. Hands, reins, legs, sitting up, looking where I want to go, hip position, not leaning while using my weight in the stirrups and saddle. 

I'm curious about what you all think about trying to work my horse for 15 minutes every two weeks in a Pessoa or long lines to work on his balance - wonder if I should try that or just work him on walk trot transitions at the lunge and under saddle? His lunging skills are still not super great and I barely know how to lunge him at all. We are working on that - mostly walk trot transitions on the lunge. Changing from one way to the other has not been working so well with the 17 hand beast.  It sure would be one dangerous mess if I got that Pessoa on him while working by myself and he freaked out. That would *NOT* be a good thing.

Sky, it is hurtful to hear that I'm not a good rider but even more hurtful when I hear negative comments about my horse. It has really shocked me how sensitive I am about his abilities. It's like someone saying something negative about your child. It really makes me want to prove them wrong. On the other hand, I do have to be open to feedback and really listen in my position. I will see about getting an (ahem, embarrassing) video a friend took of me riding online. Do you know where to upload the video so I can link it to this forum.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

You can upload it to a third party photo sharing site like Photobucket or you can upload it on Youtube (youtube is generally the easiest and fastest).

I don't know if working him in a Pessoa would help that much (though it probably couldn't hurt if you know how to use it properly...or your trainer does). Since you said he'd been ridden by others and he collected up nicely, he may just be the type of horse that knows how to do it, but needs to be asked properly. If that's the case, then he's a perfect horse to learn on because he is willing and able to respond properly when you ask correctly.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

makin tracks said:


> Sounds like a balance issue. It certainly doesn't help if both you and your horse are unbalanced.
> 
> We all tend to the foetal thing when we feel threatened and it takes concentration to stop doing it.


This. You will always see insecure/less confident riders leaning forward because in the back of your mind, you don't want to fall off the back of the horse. Unfortunately, once you get your weight over your horse's shoulders, your horse will get very heavy in the front end and you'll have a terribly bumpy ride, too, which only makes it worse. Build your core muscle strength, try to relax in the saddle, and be aware of your position, but don't over think it. Thinking too much will just make you stiff and you'll a different, but similar problem. Keep it "fun" and don't let riding become "work". The more you ride, the more you'll relax.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Doodlesweaver said:


> Sky, it is hurtful to hear that I'm not a good rider but even more hurtful when I hear negative comments about my horse. It has really shocked me how sensitive I am about his abilities. It's like someone saying something negative about your child. It really makes me want to prove them wrong. On the other hand, I do have to be open to feedback and really listen in my position. I will see about getting an (ahem, embarrassing) video a friend took of me riding online. Do you know where to upload the video so I can link it to this forum.


I know exactly what you mean. When someone insults my horse, it stings like salted wounds. But then I realize that their opinion doesn't matter anyway because I know how wonderful and talented and what a bright spark he is.

But seriously, there should be no dissing of you or your horse.

Best place to upload a video is youtube. You can modify the settings so only those with the url of the video can see it (unlinked I believe is what it is called)

And no worries, even I'm a tad shy about my riding videos. It's only natural.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Doodlesweaver, I fully understand how hard it is to break habits in riding! After 5 years of using 2 hands on the reins, I've spent months struggling to learn to ride with one hand on the reins. I find myself putting my free hand on the saddle horn just to keep it close to where it 'wants' to be. Even that small change makes my balance feel off!

And starting riding at 50...well, maybe that is an excuse. Maybe I'm really just someone with no natural ability as a rider, so every step forward has taken me longer than others. And by nature, I'm an experimenter. When someone tells me to do this, I wonder why - and too many of the truisms of riding are based on simplistic analysis.

I don't jump. I did start riding English, drifted west, and finally jumped across the ocean and started using an Australian saddle. I've also fought with being too far forward, and here are some things I've learned:

1 - Two point (or half seat, too). Combined with neck reining the horse, so I cannot snatch at the reins for balance. I like to use it while trotting, and I like to stay in it while working on my horse's flexibility by doing tight turns, figures 8s, etc. If my balance is off (out of synch with my horse), it shows up there.

In a tight turn, the horse cannot move efficiently while heavy on the front, and it feels very obvious that shifting my weight to the rear helps him to follow me.

2 - Gripping with knees. The only way I know to get too far forward requires gripping with the knees. Otherwise, you really FEEL too far forward! I have to make a conscious decision to spread my knees as far apart as I can. A lifetime of jogging has made my hips tight. Mia used to bolt all the time, and there is nothing like a bolt to make you want to grip with the knees. There are also few things worse in a bolt than gripping with the knees...so I've had to fight it.

While doing a two point or half seat, tell your body it WILL move the knees 1/2" away from the horse. Let as much of your weight as possible flow uninterrupted by your knees and into your heels. Now keep that position and do some tight 180s. Practice it at a walk as well.

3 Try western. You don't have to give up English, or jumping. In fact, try OLD-style western:










_Charles Myers cutting animals out from the herd. LS Ranch, Texas_, 1907

Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide










_Jack Woffard of the Shoe Bar outfit flanking the trail herd. Shoe Bar Ranch, Texas_, 1912

Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide










Feet way forward, moving your hips like the green arrow by opening and closing your waist, legs with just enough tension to hold the stirrups forward, stirrups adjusted so the knee allows your leg to comfortably mold around the horse. It looks odd to modern eyes, but I've tried it on my fussy mare using a Bates Caprilli jump saddle...and she was happy. Ears were quizzical for a few seconds, then clicked forward and we cantered a bunch of laps.

4 - You don't need another saddle, but if you can borrow a western saddle, fine. It will feel very different, and that is OK. After all, the goal is to retrain your body to accept something different. Borrow a barrel racing saddle, with the stirrups hung forward and a tall cantle in the rear, and go on a trail ride for a few hours, pretending you are Jack Woffard out working invisible cattle in 1912. Heck, my mare has jumped a few invisible fences, so it can't hurt to work a few invisible cows. It is very hard to ride too far forward for 3 hours. I know...I've tried.

5 - Something I'm working with Mia now is a cone pattern. I set 3 up in a long isosceles triangle. We start at the far cone, trot between the 2 cones at the other end, do most of a figure 8 around those two cones (and trying for a CIRCLE, not just a turn), as tight as her flexibility will allow, and then back to the far one. Mia gets ****y if we just work a figure 8. But this pattern will allow you to ride forward, then almost force you to throw your weight to the rear going thru the figure 8, and then back to a forward balance. I like to pretend I'm a 55 year old, bifocal-wearing, somewhat overweight barrel racer. Of course, the only part that is false is the "barrel racer"! 

I'm a largely self-taught rider who doesn't jump or compete in anything, so take it with a big cup of FWIW. And BTW - my favorite book on riding is VS Littauer's Commonsense Horsemanship. See my signature...:wink:

Edit to add: Here is MY typical position, BTW. Not nearly as extreme as the old west pictures, but then, what fan of Littauer would be? Tilt the shoulders forward, and we can be ready to canter...


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## Maryland Rider (Jul 2, 2013)

"Kind of been depressed and horses are really my best outlet, giving me a
happiness I really haven't experienced since I was a child/teen and riding."

This sounds like a very important statement here.
We should have enjoyment from our riding experience!

If you need to correct your riding posture, do you have a friend that can work with you?
Instructors comments seem a bit rude.
Many more things are fixed with kindness.

As long as we don't critique my posture everything will be just fine.
I am too relaxed, probably sit back too far, spend more time twisted around
checking on everyone I am riding with/conversation.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think maybe your anxiety is related - you feel unbalanced and instinct is to lean forward for some sort of security - I've seen plenty of riders do it when a horse bolts with them
Try to relax and 'think' yourself deep into the saddle and the horse - deep breathing exercises help relieve tension
Think 'tall' - you can be upright but still relaxed - feel that right from your chin down to your heels
I have really two bad habits - one is to look down at the horses shoulder - I fight that by making myself look forwards ahead 'where I'm going' - don't want to end up on the floor sort of thing
The other is to drop one shoulder into the middle of the 'ring' and someone had me ride with the arm on that side pointing upwards at the sky/roof which also helped a lot because I now have that in my mind
You could adjust both these things to work for you
I'm not sure that a western saddle would stop you leaning forwards as you might feel inclined to used the front of it as a crutch and then get behind the horses movement but I'm no expert on western in any remote way


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## amberly (Dec 16, 2012)

Riding without stirrups can really help.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

amberly said:


> Riding without stirrups can really help.


^This! And even better, have someone give you a lunge line lesson without stirrups.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Is it just your upper body that goes too far forward? Do your legs stay in the right spot? Wintecs pitch a lot of riders forward. Saddle definitely comes into play when talking about balance and mechanics. I like the suggestion of trying a dressage saddle. They put you in a more balanced position and almost force you to post correctly through your thighs which takes the upper body out of the equation and lets it remain still. I'm wondering if your lower back/hip area is stiff. It's that area that's supposed to move with the trot, not your upper body. 

For the saddle fit/balance, next time you ride, stand straight up in it at the halt and see if you fall forward or back in it. If you can't find your center of balance in it that way, it probably isn't the right saddle for you. 

No stirrup work might work, but it also might develop you new bad habits to replace the old ones, such as gripping with your knees. I'm thinking have your instructor longe you with stirrups but without reins so you get used to posting in balance. 

And I agree with others, telling you that you're a bad rider is just a tad mean. Guessing none of them have any riding flaws to speak of if they are speaking to you like that.


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## BeccaF (Jun 26, 2013)

Leaning forward can also happen if you're looking down. I have a bad habit of looking down during transitions (my excuse is that I'm looking for the diagonal or the lead, but, honestly...). When I was young, I had a bad habit of looking down at the jump as I was approaching. I had a period of time where the pony I was riding was refusing everything, which made me fall off half the time (I fell off him a lot, at least he was close to the ground...). My trainer at the time used to get so mad at me and "punish" me by making me do everything without stirrups, and sometimes without reins as well. She would ask me questions as I was going forward, like what's at the end of the ring, what color is it, etc., and I was expected to answer. 

I second the sports bra thing. I wear a tight sports bra when I ride because, well, I can't stand the feeling that they're pulling me over. Some women have severe back and neck problems just doing normal activity. Naturally, if certain muscles are weak for some reason, other muscles, not necessarily the ones you'd want, become stronger, creating more of a problem. Switching those muscles out can be a challenge.

Some core exercises were mentioned on the forum recently, and it might be good to looking into ways to strengthen your back, so that sitting up will feel more comfortable than leaning forward.

I like the crop idea for slouching, but it sounds like you are raising your knees in addition to leaning forward. Maybe just walking around or doing a sitting trot without stirrups and letting your legs down would help. For me, all that no stirrup work helped at the time (now, I'm lacking that muscle).


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

I really think you should consider what saddle you use. A lot of the more forward cut saddles (jump etc) have their place but I think that place is after you've established a strong position. Riding in a dressage saddle is really beneficial and important because while many saddles allow a traditional position, most good dressage saddles will encourage it. I'd imagine that if you're leaning forward you're riding with your legs a bit forward of the line between "shoulder, hip, heel" because I find when you're riding in line leaning forward doesn't really work - either your leg has to go back to tip you forward, or go forward to brace over. 

So basically, I'd try to lower your stirrups (so you sort of sink into them rather than bracing against them) and ride in a dressage saddle for a while until you have a stronger position, and then you can ride in a range of saddles. 

Far as buying a saddle at your weight, generally saddle size is worked by thigh length. I'd imagine for your height you'd probably use around a 17 - 17.5 inch saddle, regardless of your weight. Weight does play a factor, but I don't think that at your current weight it would effect your correct saddle size too much.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

MyBoyPuck said:


> ...I'm wondering if your lower back/hip area is stiff. It's that area that's supposed to move with the trot, not your upper body...





Doodlesweaver said:


> I took a bad fall a year and a half ago - fractured my sacrum after being bucked off a 17H Irish mare - fantastic horse!! - in full gallop (using a Dr. Cook's bitless) with some of my girlfriends on my birthday. Couldn't roll over off my stomach for two weeks. Don't know how I got back on that horse to get down the mountain but somehow I did. I was pretty spooked by that experience. The worst part was that my daughter was there and I came to hearing her say the words "Is she dead?" to my best friend. It was 2 1/2 months before I got the nerve to go back. It hurt getting on...


I'm thinking MyBoyPuck may be on to something. I injured my lower back a few months after I started riding. After a lifetime of jogging, I had to give jogging up for over 4 years. I still rode horses, and after a few months the stabbing pain went away, but a ride was followed a few hours later with swelling in my lower right back.

Littauer is my favorite writer on riding, but I often rode with an "exaggerated Littauer position" myself. Only this spring, when my back started to heal, did I realize that I did it to protect my back. Keeping my lower back and hip stiff minimized the swelling and pain afterward. 

Oddly enough, I think trying hard to ride a more western style helped to heal my back. Using an Australian saddle with a horn, I'd put my feet forward and use my free hand on the horn to shove myself back. It felt to me like I was leaning back in the saddle, although everyone who saw me described it as "straight"! :evil: But what do they know? It sure FELT like I was leaning about 20 deg back. :?

I would do that a half-dozen times each ride. A few months later, I was able to start jogging again. My riding has improved greatly in the last 6 months, and I think much of it is due to better mobility in my lower back.

It could be your body's protective reaction to your hip injury. You might buy a book on back & leg stretches and exercises. Even if it doesn't noticeably hurt, your body may be trying to protect your sacrum.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

I don't think switching to western is the answer .... you just need to retrain your muscle memory to the correct position.

Can your trainer do a few longe lessons for you? Put you on a longeing circle (either on your horse if it is well trained enough, or another very well-broke horse that is willing to continue to walk, trot and canter on the longe-line regardless of what you are doing above the,), and put you through your paces and let the trainer micromanage your position, until you understand and can keep your head, hips and heels in alignment and where they need to be. Reinless, and/or stirrupless riding really force you to focus on your balance and fine-tune your riding abilities quicker than having to control not only your position but your horse as well. 

The biggest thing I find when you are relearning body position is that you need to EXAGGERATE how far back you feel you are leaning back, because A) It isnt as far back as you think it is and B) you will end up somewhere between "old" position and "exaggerated" position. 

I strongly recommend Sally Swift's book Centered Riding, and a few lessons with a centered riding trainer NEVER hurt anyone. I attempt to go to a CR clinic every so often for a tune up.


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## Nocturva (Mar 23, 2013)

my trainer makes me stand up in the saddle for a good time to try to find my balance, I've worked with riding with a crop behind my back through my elbows and it works nicely, also riding without stirrups and riding bareback has helped me posture, because I do have a habit of leaning forward


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## milesgirl (Aug 4, 2013)

I have a tendency to lean forward too. I have to concentrate a lot to sit back and relax. For me, it is at the canter. I did recently get a Shoulders Back and that has helped me put my shoulders into the correct position.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

If your balance is good enough to stay on, I'd definitely suggest some no stirrup work. For me, it does the trick fixing posture issues.


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## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

I sympathise. I suck at trotting. My advice to you is, boobs out, shoulders back!  I seriosuly helps me. You've got a load of advice here! Good luck


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## Doodlesweaver (Dec 12, 2012)

Here is the embarassing video of me and my horse learning to do trot poles. Hope this upload works.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Hmm... were you trying to two-point over the poles?


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Okay so you have a very unsecure leg which is likely caused from leaning on your hands.

This can be very easily fixed if you work hard and really focus on what your body is doing.

How To Practice Your Classical Seat In Horseback Riding - YouTube


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## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

Get your weight into your heels girl! Are you leaning on his neck? I only ask because that's what I used to do because my balance was sucky. I got put in a round pen, my reins taken off me, given a neck strap and made to trot around and around until we got it right. It didnt take long to figure out that sitting up, shoulders back, boobs out, weight in heels, was much easier than leaning forward and flopping around. 
So all I can say is get your heels down and look up 
Nice horse btw


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## Doodlesweaver (Dec 12, 2012)

My exercise ball came in last night so have started working on that to get my core strength/balance improved. Will see about getting the barn owner to lunge me on my horse. I absolutely love, love, love my horse!!! Soooo appreciate that you said he was a lovely horse! Made my day. Sky, have watched that video before on balanced riding. Do you think at age 45 if I get in better shape I will be able to significantly improve my riding? Also I worry that I'm going to ruin my horse because of my riding.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Doodlesweaver said:


> My exercise ball came in last night so have started working on that to get my core strength/balance improved. Will see about getting the barn owner to lunge me on my horse. I absolutely love, love, love my horse!!! Soooo appreciate that you said he was a lovely horse! Made my day. Sky, have watched that video before on balanced riding. Do you think at age 45 if I get in better shape I will be able to significantly improve my riding? Also I worry that I'm going to ruin my horse because of my riding.


Nah you won't ruin your horse  Just he is having trouble keeping balanced underneath you but in time that will improve!


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## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

I agree. You'll be fine hun and at least you are wanting to improve  watching it again it does seem like you're leaning so far forward you have to steady yourself on his neck. I used to do the same thing and boy did I get yelled at haha 
It will come right with practice practice practice. I'd forget the poles for the minute and get you balance on the flat going well  get on a ride girl!


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## makin tracks (Jan 25, 2009)

Definately legs and leaning on your horses neck. 

I agree, I would give the poles a miss for a little while to you can concentrate on a more centred position.

An exercise you can try is standing on the balls of your feet on a step. Legs apart and knees bent like you are riding. Drop your heels down as far as you can without changing your body position. Once you can do it, then rise and fall like you are trotting. Once again keeping your heels down and body centred over your hips. You will need something to hold onto.

You can extend the exercise above to holding a pole or fence of something in front of you whilst you carry out the rising and falling, this helps you to learn to keep your hands still whilst you are rising to the trot. It feels quite odd at first but very good at making you aware of how to operate the different parts of the body differently to achieve balance. 

Good luck with your riding, you will get there.


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## Ted Love Forever (Aug 17, 2013)

Try some exercises in the saddle, and practice two-point position. It should help balance


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