# Describe biting and nipping



## AQHSam (Nov 23, 2011)

Odd, but would you please describe what you would call a horse biting or nipping. In another thread regarding aggression people wrote about this and how he or she would discipline. 

In my opinion, My 5 yr QH doesn't nip. But does he? 

While I am caressing his neck he will sometimes GENTLY grab at a coat sleeve or my scarf. the hood attached to my coat. He is mostly lipping these items and may grab I tiny piece of material. When his teeth does connect with the material he doesn't swish his head. 

I usually extract any cloth and laugh. To me it is bonding. But am I wrong?

There is no aggression in his posture. His eyes are soft and droopy. One back leg cocked. 

Is this the start of a bad behavior? Otherwise he is completely submissive. Great, no excellent tying and ground manners. If I move my position while grooming he will respond by stepping away from me (if I am near a wall) always to respect my space. 

It's soooo cute when he sniffs me and nuzzles my scarf the mouths it. Is it bad?


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I don't tolerate either. I'm a stickler when it comes to this issue. Mouths and especially teeth aren't allowed on any person, period. Nipping/lipping when allowed generally will escalate at some point.


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## gingerscout (Jan 18, 2012)

what people have exclaimed to me is its dominance.. wether it seems like it or not.. he is trying to let him see what you will let him get away with before he gets punished.. if you dont correct it.. he may ramp up sometime.. and bite or pushy.. thats why I dont tolerate any of it.. I was told to not let them invade your personal space... if you go into theirs and start giving them affection and they respond with it back thats ok.. but they shouldnt crowd me


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## stacysills02 (Sep 29, 2011)

my horse is nippen everytime he dose he gets a elbow in the face. I would describe nipping and a small bite with no teeth. he dose it to play with me but he still get smacked. A BITE on the otherhand is when the use there teeth. if he would do that id sock him in the face cuz that hurts and no horse should do that. hes only biten me a few times. i think hes just trying to see what he can get away with. but dont put up with it cuz theyll just keep doing it


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Im with MH...this "cute" behavior is the precursor of a bite. It will eventually get there.
I don't feed my horses "treats" either form hand...they have to put their lips on you. Well I don't feed treats period, but I just don't allow it. I would rather take the measures to prevent a problem rather than try to fix one later. The best way to fix a bad habit is not to allow one to form.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

AQHSam said:


> Odd, but would you please describe what you would call a horse biting or nipping. In another thread regarding aggression people wrote about this and how he or she would discipline.
> 
> In my opinion, My 5 yr QH doesn't nip. But does he?
> 
> ...


My gelding used to do this too, until he grabbed my hood and pulled.. He choked me a little and wouldn't let go for a minute. Now I just tell him no because I don't want him to hurt me accidentally. He still LOVES to lick my jacket though


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

If you are grooming him around his withers, neck area that is where horses mutually groom and he may be trying to return the favor.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

AQHSam said:


> Odd, but would you please describe what you would call a horse biting or nipping. In another thread regarding aggression people wrote about this and how he or she would discipline.
> 
> In my opinion, My 5 yr QH doesn't nip. But does he? *Yes, he does.*
> 
> ...


 
Answers above. 

I just also wanted to add that I do hand feed treats to my horses. But they do not lick me, they do not nip me, they do not bite me. They've learned and they know what is allowed and what is not. 

Also, it does not seem to sound like it is a "gromming return the favor" as was mentioned. Any time there is teeth involved, that's stepping over the line. Zero tolerance.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> Nipping/lipping when allowed generally will escalate at some point.


How long will it take to escalate? Just curious here. 

I always roll my eyes that feeding treats always teaches them to disrespect of bite. May be for some yes, but so far I didn't come across the one that would learn to bite from getting treats.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

With a well trained, respectful gelding I'm a little more relaxed than I am with a stallion. Stallion, mouth my direction even with no contact, correction. Gelding depends on the personality. I had a QH that LOVED to lip me. He did what I call 'the cookie duster' with his upper lip and would swish it back and forth on some part of me when I'd be grooming on his favorite spots. That's all he ever offered to do, so I never corrected him and we were fine for 30 years. He's also the only horse I've ever allowed to rub his face on me, he understood the boundaries. After a ride, after the bridle was off and the halter was around his neck, I'd brace myself for a good rub on my back. He'd rub his itchy face and crack my back after a good long ride, at the same time. We both loved it. I have NOT found that level of trust with any other horse, so beware. 

I think 98% of the time, the mantra of, "A lip leads to a bite" to be good advice and I'm also wary of hand treats, though I do feed them to horses that demonstrate that they understand the etiquette. Anyone who gets too carried away and demanding.....cut off. I think generalizations with horses and people can be a little too cut and dried and you need to take your horses actions and personality into account.


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## OwnedByAlli (Nov 8, 2011)

I wouldn't let him mouth you because as other people have said he might oneday decide that if lips are ok then teeth are too! 

Letting him grab clothing is also a bad idea. Appart from the fact you get horse slobber everywhere, it can be dangerous- if he grabs a hoodie cord and pulls it could potentially strangle you :/

Alli can groom be back when I groom her (I trust her not to bite, but no other horses are allowed to do this), and she gets food from an _outstretched_ hand as a reward, but anything else I don't tolerate. She is naturally dominant especially with less knowledgable people so I don't want her taking advantage. Saying that, she has only ever swung her head to nip once and that was when she had a nasty sore and didn't appreciate my poking! But perhaps thats because I have a no tolerance policy with grumpiness!

Also, you might have to handle another horse at some point who is prone to nipping. Just a theory, kinda, but I have found that people who don't allow nippy behaivoir rarely have a horse try to nip them anyway because the horse picks up on the zero tolerance rules.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> I always roll my eyes that feeding treats always teaches them to disrespect of bite. May be for some yes, but so far I didn't come across the one that would learn to bite from getting treats.


If you are referring to my post....I never said _always..._but I think it is a good rule of thumb for most horses. And I don't do it.

Here is an example of people who shouldn't do it... I briefly went to work for some people who were raising barrel horses. They didn't have a lot of horse experience but thought they did, IMO the worst kind. And more money than brains. 
When I first started I would walk out in the pasture and I was bombarded by horses biting at my clothes and fingers looking for "treats". This is not ok in my book, I would rather have a horse walk away from me or be a hard to catch than deal with that crap. The owners thought it was "cute" to have them come running up to them and mouth them. They also allowed the foals to bite and nip fingers...sure that's cute when they they don't have teeth but wait until he weighs a few hundred lbs. more and his teeth have grown in. Eventually I had to quit because I couldn't deal with it, it was not fair to the horses for me to be correcting a bad habit while others are encouraging it(and barrel horses aren't my thing). I talked to guy that replaced me after I left and he has bitten several times and the weanlings are monsters.

Also I have never been keen to bribery being a training concept.​


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

COWCHICK77 said:


> If you are referring to my post....


Not at all (I didn't read through all the posts before I posted). But this is something that is brought up in almost every biting/nipping thread, therefore my comment. 

Personally I don't care when someone feeds or doesn't feed the treats to their horses (because every person has own thoughts on it and it's his/her horse to make a decision). But when people start saying "it's stupid of you to feed treats, and you shouldn't do that because of ... " (I had people telling me that too), it's annoying because it's not anyone's business as long as the owner knows what (s)he is doing. :wink:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

BTW, I always wonder how do they develop biting when fed treats. I have my mares for number of years and always been giving treats to them. Moreover my trainer gives the treat to one if she did great at the lesson (while I'm still on). Both of them know I have a treat when I come to the field to muck or add the hay, or just to socialize, but they don't try to beg for one really.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

^^^ like you said it depends on the knowledge of the person,and I think the personality of the horse has a factor. That is why I posted the above story, people who don't know better and allow something cute to develop into a dangerous habit.
I think it can develop easily when the horses gets pushy and starts to expect treats and starts nosing your clothes looking for where you hid them on your person. Which was the case with the horses I was dealing with in the story above.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

*Biting or lipping?*

A biter is a horse which comes at you, muzzle first, lips curled up and ears flattened. The animal has the obvious intention to hurt with its teeth. Such behaviour is simply not to be tolerated and for me it is a sign that the animal is unfit for my purposes.

But lipping - hmm - that's a sign of communication. After all a horse was not given much by Mother Nature to 'talk' with. My mare knows I keep treat pellets in my pocket (she can smell them) and from time to time she'll ask for one by nuzzling my pocket. I have been known to oblige.

Touch is a very useful aid and the meaning behind touch is explicit. A human has hands and fingers to touch with - whereas a horse has only a nose and mouth. To me it is very important that I can trust my horse NOT to nip me, but to be sure I have to put myself in close proximity with her. Regularly when grooming her, I run my hands over her to check she is clean. I do not allow her any space free from my touch - in return she can give me an occasional nudge - so long as she is gentle. Without hesitation I will nowadays put my fingers in the corner of her mouth to fit the bit. I will kneel down by her to clean out her hooves.

I've stopped chatting with her, I use voice sparingly. I'll use a very soft tone of voice to encourage or to sooth. From time to time I'll say 'No' firmly or 'Oi!' sharply to chastise. 

Often and for no obvious reason I will stroke her mane and I'll tickle her neck or shoulders with my fingers, simply to please her. On the lunge line these days I use gentle pressure on the bit to ask her to slow and even stop. I have stopped asking by voice. From a distance I use the noise of the whip to speed her up say from trot to canter but I never touch her with it. Usually just raise the whip is enough to ask for a change of pace upwards. Sensitivity is key.

So with these concepts in mind, it would be inappropriate for me to push her mouth away, even if she is going to cover me with slobber.

However my mare is gentle by nature, which is one of the key reasons why I bought her. I trust her never to hurt me deliberately either by teeth or feet and so far over the years, she has never let me down.

But many riders simply don't believe in this level of familiarity between horse and human so I watch carefully as to who is allowed to sit on or come too close with my horse.


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## FirstLightFarm (Jan 20, 2012)

In my world, biting is as Barry described above. It is a declaration of war around these parts!:evil: I have a friend whose horse amputated part of her ear. I have zero tolerance for that kind of horse - too many good ones, especially these days, needing homes for me to put up with that kind of foolishness.

Nipping. Sigh. I have a paint pony who nips. A nip is a subtle pinch with the teeth, that leaves a red mark but doesn't break the skin. Did your great aunt ever pinch you for cutting up in church? Feels like that.

Since my paint pony was my first horse, and I know firsthand how flat out annoying nipping can be, I don't allow horses to lip me or tug on my clothes or hair. I don't want to chance that the behavior will escalate.

That said, I do handfeed treats. Two of my horses have never progressed to even offering to nip. Paint pony continues to nip whether he's handfed treats or not. I never ever take treats out to the field and just hand 'em out, though. Treats are rewards to be earned.

The only cure for my nipper is vigilance. He'll go years without nipping (because I never give him the chance) but if I let down my guard, he's right back to his old tricks.

How long has your horse been putting his mouth on you? Have you observed any kind of escalation, i.e. started by putting his lips on you, progressed to pulling on your clothes? Or has the behavior remained at the same level for a long time?


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> How long will it take to escalate? Just curious here.
> 
> I always roll my eyes that feeding treats always teaches them to disrespect of bite. May be for some yes, but so far I didn't come across the one that would learn to bite from getting treats.


Sorry it took me so long to get back to you Val. Been an unusually warm day and had a flood of lesson kids haul in today since the roads were clean. 

That's an unanswerable question really. Totally depends on the horse and how big their propensity is to push boundaries. Woodstock - was a nipper - when being lead /biter - to defend his space when I got him, even though we've worked through that, he's one that if you give an inch, he'll take a mile. I know that if I were to let him even lip me, clothing, etc. he WILL bite at some point. 

I give treats (alfalfa cubes) but don't hand feed. When I got Missy she was a treat monger, rude and in your business about it - checking pockets, lipped fingers searching for goodies. I've got no problem with treats as long as they are given boundaries and don't get pushy about it.


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## AQHSam (Nov 23, 2011)

Thanks everyone. What would be an appropriate-level action by me to a kind spirit and gentle horse that is putting his lips on me? 

I don't want to knock his block off if a flick in the forehead will work.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> How long will it take to escalate? Just curious here.
> 
> I always roll my eyes that feeding treats always teaches them to disrespect of bite. May be for some yes, but so far I didn't come across the one that would learn to bite from getting treats.


It depends on the horse. As soon as they start hunting for treats, expecting them, inspecting you or everyone else, you've gone too far and need to stop giving any sort of treat. Because they will be lippy and nippy and rude and dangerous.

My horse goes nuts for apples and peppermint. If you smell like it, he will try (notice I said try) to invade your space and butter you up via licking your hand or whatnot. I don't tolerate it.. he's big enough as it is, I don't want him knocking down people or thinking it's a treat and taking a chomp. 

Like today I was putting on his blanket and my friend had been handling apples. He then thinks that he's going to get a treat so he curls his neck to where I am (at his chest fastening it up) and bites at his chest strap thinking it's a treat. What if that was someone's hand? I reprimanded him for it and made sure all his focus was on me before putting him in his stall for dinner. 

Give them an inch.. they'll take a mile. Be careful with treats. They're nice so long as the horse isn't demanding them or being rude about it.



AQHSam said:


> Thanks everyone. What would be an appropriate-level action by me to a kind spirit and gentle horse that is putting his lips on me?
> 
> I don't want to knock his block off if a flick in the forehead will work.


I wouldn't reprimand them on their face unless there is a very very very good reason. 

Just get out of their space. Either make them move or you move. Hopefully you make them move as that's what herd leaders would do.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Push his head away, kindly but firmly


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## FirstLightFarm (Jan 20, 2012)

Barry Godden said:


> Push his head away, kindly but firmly


Yep. I had to do that with Houdini just the other night. He knows better, but still, he only put his lips on me. So I wasn't going to haul off and smack him. I like to meet the level of intrusion the horse puts out. So Houdini gently but firmly lipped my wrist - I gently but a bit more firmly put my hand over his nose and moved him out of my space.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> How long will it take to escalate? Just curious here.
> 
> I always roll my eyes that feeding treats always teaches them to disrespect of bite. May be for some yes, but so far I didn't come across the one that would learn to bite from getting treats.


 It depends on the nature of the horse. Some you can, some you can't.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

To me there is no difference between biting or nipping...either way the horse is putting his teeth on me, my clothing, or lead, etc, and he shouldn't be, and it will be corrected; whether that's bringing my arm up to block him (or in a 'confirmed biter' I will usually be carrying a crop to block his attempts), or moving immediately him out of my space, will depend on the situation.


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