# ATTN: All Grey color breeding experts



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

It's a little hard to see but I think I see some white around her muzzle and her eye. If so, then she'll probably grey out. Very cute baby!


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I think that foal will end up being grey.


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## 2BigReds (Oct 7, 2011)

Oh my goodness that last photo of her with her nose resting in the dirt just kills me! <3 Sorry I have no idea on the gray, but adorable!!!


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

I would test her. It is often very difficult to see the white flecks in buckskins (or palominos) turning grey. Up close you need to look for any white hairs.
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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

The eyelids are the best place to see the gray hairs coming in. It sort of looks like she has gray hairs in her eyelid on the last picture.

I just sent off hair today on a palomino yearling filly. I have her sold if she does not have a gray gene. Sire is a Champagne palomino and dam is gray. She has the amber eyes, but could still gray out. It would just mean she has both genes. If they have both genes, the gray will always win out in the phenotype.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Look at the eyelashes. Apache's only sign that he would be grey was a couple white eyelashes.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I am leaning towards grey. But not because of seeing white hairs. Her legs are quite dark, and her foal coat quite adult in its shade, which says grey to me.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I have no idea if she'll gray out or not but she's adorable.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Chiilaa said:


> I am leaning towards grey. But not because of seeing white hairs. Her legs are quite dark, and her foal coat quite adult in its shade, which says grey to me.


Very true. That was the other thing - Apache was very bold in his coloring as a foal.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I do not think leg or face color (other than around eyes) or base colors count at all. They only indicate coloring associated with the horses base colo and other color genes it has. We curently have over 20 grays that we bred and raised. They came in all different colors and markings depending on the other genes their gray parent had and the genes inherited from their non-gray parent. 

The Driftwood stallion that we sold to the UK gave us many fillies that we kept. All but one are gray but more than half started out grullo or dun and one was a red dun. Most carry the red gene, also.

Our gray stallion we had about 20 years ago did not have a red gene, so he sired 80% gray and 18% bay and 2% black / brown. ALL of his foals were born bay, brown, black or a real dark charcoal gray color (no white hair mixed in -- all hairs were very dark gray colored). All of the ones that turned gray started out with gray rings around their eyes as their new hair came in. They usually had a few white hairs in their eye lids or had a few white upper eye lashes at birth. The dark base color let them turn gray very slowly and they were very attractive dark dappled grays for several years. We still have 2 of his daughters and many of his granddaughters. 

Our grays from the old stud were bred to the Driftwood stud. We could tell at birth if they got their gray gene from the old stud or from the Driftwood stud. 

Additionally, all of the grays that got the Driftwood stud's gene turned white (like he did) without any 'flea bite' or speckles. All of the old studs grays got very flea bitten as they aged. Not a one (except one out of a gray mare that was snow white) did not have flea bite speckles. I have one mare that was by an outside gray stud (flea bitten) out of a fleas bitten daughter of the old stud. She is sooo flea bitten that she now looks dark gray again with almost solid flea bites.

I know that officially they do not recognize two different gray genes, but after raising over 100 of them, I am convinced that they are indeed genetically different.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

I doubt there are 2 different grey genes or else they wouldn't be able to test for it so reliably. However, that doesn't mean there aren't other modifiers that influence how quickly they grey out and if they are fleabitten or not.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I do not know just how it works. All I know is that the two variations breed 100% true and never change in any of their get. I have watched this in gray genes for over 40 years with both Arabians and QHs and will all kinds of base colors.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Hmm - wonder what happens if you cross the two. Which would be dominant?


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

We have done that many times and one or the other will show up in the phenotype. That will be the one they pass on when you breed them. We have several grays that are 5 or 6 generations of our breeding. I can tell very early which ones are going to be the ones that get flea bitten. It is always passed on by a parent and never carried recessively -- just like the gray color itself.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Not a genetics expert at ALL. All I know that my mare had this cute colt...



BUT, he was grey grey grey! How did I know? This was his daddy.



He was homozygous for grey so there was no way he would not be grey. This is what he grew up to be.....




Greys are the sneakiest, most deceptive critters around!! I would bet your baby will grey out. I see sneaky hints around the eye and muzzle.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

*Speaking of grays......will my gray ever dapple???*

Wow guys, this is so fascinating. As the owner of a couple of grays (and another one that passed away some years back) I am quite interested in the genetics of gray.

My gray foal was kind of weird in that he had no white hairs at birth (other than face and leg markings). Not a white hair at all, not even an eyelash. And I looked him over pretty good too because I was hoping for gray. :lol:

His tail was the first thing to show white (and at first I thought it might just be some sort of baby color) and gradually his face marking started to spread as he got white hair on his face. But at first it just looked like an extension of his white star. 

So it appears my guy is graying VERY slow. I mean, it's like watching the grass grow. :lol: I know he's heterozygous because his sire was sorrel and mom is a gray (base-coat black I believe). 

Do you guys think he will dapple??? 

Does he "look" like a dapple candidate? I have only owned his mom for about 4-5 years and she was fleabit (with a hint of dapples) when I got her. So I have never had a gray go through the graying process before. It's quite exciting, except it's sort of like watching the grass grow! :lol:

So here he is, from birth to almost 4 years, and he's still basically a bay. What's up with that? :think:


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

I agree with Chiilaa that her bolder foal color looks like she 'might' gray. I don't see any white hairs that others are seeing. Although her legs aren't as dark in the second pic and that is why I say 'might', there is definitely room for her legs to be darker, so there is hope, and I'd sure be hoping she didn't, duns are my favorite!

And the foal Allison Finch posted I'd have been shocked if he didn't gray! (even without seeing either parent), again because of his adultish foal color.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

THR, I believe that Zane will likely dapple. I have no real factual basis for that opinion, just a gut feeling LOL.

If I have to have a gray, I like the ones that gray slower, that way you've got years to enjoy those pretty dapples and amazing colors (and lack of stains :lol. Dobe was pretty much completely white by the time he was 8 and there was only a couple of years at the very beginning (4 and 5 year old) that he was pretty and dappled.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

smrobs said:


> If I have to have a gray, I like the ones that gray slower, that way you've got years to enjoy those pretty dapples and amazing colors (and lack of stains :lol. Dobe was pretty much completely white by the time he was 8 and there was only a couple of years at the very beginning (4 and 5 year old) that he was pretty and dappled.


You'd love my best friend's TB gelding, then (other than the fact that he's bat-crap crazy). He's 16 and still a lovely dappled grey. Not a dark dapple, but still a dapple.
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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I would guess that he will eventually dapple out. The dark ones foaled his color, (dark charcoal gray with no white mixed in) are the ones that usually hold their color the longest and usually dapple out very nicely. We got a lot of those from our old stud.


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## riddlemethis (Jun 3, 2008)

Cherie said:


> I do not think leg or face color (other than around eyes) or base colors count at all. They only indicate coloring associated with the horses base colo and other color genes it has. We curently have over 20 grays that we bred and raised. They came in all different colors and markings depending on the other genes their gray parent had and the genes inherited from their non-gray parent.


 Of course grays come in all base colors. Really ALL colors. No one is saying that because this horse is dun based it's gray. We're saying because of how the foal coat LOOKS its gray. Because hes so rich as a foal, its a VERY telling indicator that he will go gray. It's very reliable. The more "adult" in color the foal is, the more likely it is to go gray.

For example, the chestnut going gray posted in this thread. Look at how rich and dark he is as a foal









Vs a non gray chestnut foal. Very pale, and "washed out"











> I know that officially they do not recognize two different gray genes, but after raising over 100 of them, I am convinced that they are indeed genetically different.


They aren't. Gray is gray is gray. Their may be different genes that effect expression, but gray is gray. They are the exact same mutation. Just like all "E" horses are the same.


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## brookewade418 (Apr 21, 2014)

Allison Finch said:


> Not a genetics expert at ALL. All I know that my mare had this cute colt...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What a BEAUTY.....amazing how their colors change like that.......I love seeing the before's and after's.....just amazing. Thank you for sharing!!
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## brookewade418 (Apr 21, 2014)

haviris said:


> I agree with Chiilaa that her bolder foal color looks like she 'might' gray. I don't see any white hairs that others are seeing. Although her legs aren't as dark in the second pic and that is why I say 'might', there is definitely room for her legs to be darker, so there is hope, and I'd sure be hoping she didn't, duns are my favorite!
> 
> And the foal Allison Finch posted I'd have been shocked if he didn't gray! (even without seeing either parent), again because of his adultish foal color.


I am SO hoping she does't turn!!!!!!!! I am in love with duns also. This is my mare's second foal and her first was a red dun that I kept and he is beautiful.
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## brookewade418 (Apr 21, 2014)

brookewade418 said:


> I am SO hoping she does't turn!!!!!!!! I am in love with duns also. This is my mare's second foal and her first was a red dun that I kept and he is beautiful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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