# Really thin TB



## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

In addition to the worming, have you had the vet out for a complete check and float? If he has been this neglected, it is doubtful his teeth have been cared for any better and bad teeth will hinder weight gain.
I had great luck with our TB using free choice hay and then twice daily feeding of 2 lbs alf. pellets, 2 lbs beet pulp and a dressing of rice bran. Keep good hay in front of his face 24/7.
Unfortunately, weight can be very slow to go back on a horse.


----------



## MTcowgirl (Jan 3, 2007)

He's on good pasture right now. Should I still give him hay?


----------



## dee (Jul 30, 2009)

Even on pasture, hay should be offered when trying to put weight on the horse. I don't know exactly why it works better than green grass, but it does. Our farrier recommended it. The daughter was feeding her emaciated mare sweet feed until I learned of the beet pulp thing. Now we feed all of our horses a mixture of beet pulp and alfalfa pellets (tried the cubes, but they wouldn't eat them as well). I would add the rice bran, but it's a special order item around here (feed store clerk had never even heard of it) and it's very expensive. We also keep plenty of good grass hay out. The mare has put on about 75 - 100 pounds in the month since we changed out the feed program. The other horses are looking better, too. My mare didn't need to gain any weight, but she also doesn't seem to have put on any since we changed out the feed. We don't feed the others quite as much as the two "skinny" ones, but all are doing well. I'm so pleased! Now, if I could just figure out how to keep their hooves from chipping, I'd be ecstatic!


----------



## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

shes lucky you arent me. i would have kicked her a** into next year!:evil: what a piece of crap she is. and why the heck is he all cut up? did she have an explination for that?!


----------



## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

I can't help with the weight gain, but you might want to buy at least a heavy turnout blanket for him if he doesn't gain weight quickly


----------



## redneckprincess70 (May 5, 2009)

If you have a supplier of feeds in your area that carry TDI Senior feed. Go with that. It already has the beet pulp and extra nutrients to put on weight. I managed to put 175 lbs on Kay in 3-4 mo. giving her 1 1/2 scoop twice a day with hay and good pasture. Good Luck and next time you see the previous owner--give her a good solid kick in the ***!!!!


----------



## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

I give my TB purina Equine Senior. I prefer this to alfalfa or grain which can make TB's really high. Senior, hay, good pasture should get him up there. Also the clinician here at school has seen a lot of TB's founder on alfalfa. If you do blanket him, make sure it isn't until he starts to grow a really nice winter coat in first or he won't get a proper one.


----------



## MTcowgirl (Jan 3, 2007)

AlmagroN said:


> shes lucky you arent me. i would have kicked her a** into next year!:evil: what a piece of crap she is. and why the heck is he all cut up? did she have an explination for that?!


No, she didn't offer an explanation and acted like they were in fine condition and it was no big deal. But he was in a pasture with around 30 other horses (no grass or even weeds in the pasture mind you, just dirt). I know that some of the places he's missing hair is from the other horses kicking and biting him. But it I mean it's ridiculous to keep all those horses in one pen knowing that some are bully's and feed them all together at the same time and expect every horse to get even get enough food. He had literally a blanket of flies on him when I picked him up, I don't know what the other spots are from but possibly he's loosing his hair due to lack of nutrition? I wouldn't rule anything out.



redneckprincess70 said:


> If you have a supplier of feeds in your area that carry TDI Senior feed. Go with that. It already has the beet pulp and extra nutrients to put on weight. I managed to put 175 lbs on Kay in 3-4 mo. giving her 1 1/2 scoop twice a day with hay and good pasture. Good Luck and next time you see the previous owner--give her a good solid kick in the ***!!!!


Senior feed sounds like a good solution, thank you. Unfortunately he needs a lot of weight in about 2 months! We'll see how it goes and I will post updates. It was so sad to see these once gorgeous horses like this without even a touch of sheen in their coats.


----------



## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

I would deworm him now with Pyrantel Promate paste and with Ivermectin+Praziquantel (zimectrin gold) in 4 weeks. That should clean him out nicely.

I would put him on free choice pasture and grass hay, work up to 5-8 lbs of alfalfa a day (hay, cubes, or pellets), and some hay pellets mixed with:

- vitamin supplement, like GrandVite or Select II
- fat source, like stabilized rice bran or flax
- probiotic, like Fastrack or Source Focus WT

This diet should get him back to a good weight in the right amount of time.

Using sweet feeds or senior feeds with molasses can rev the metabolism, making weight gain more difficult. Using an all-hay diet returns the metabolism to normal, making weight gain easier. It also burns "warmer" in the horse's stomach, helping to keep him warm when the cold weather sets in.

UC Davis did a study that showed that horses getting alfalfa gained weight better with less behavioral issues than horses on a hay + grain diet.

I also agree on getting a vet out to check/float teeth and do some blood work.


----------



## charliBum (Jan 7, 2009)

in new zealand (I know rugging is done differeently there)
but Id have him rugged up well, pumping beetpulp and extruded barley and rice into him and have him on a probiotic anda hoof and hair suplement.

make sure you get his teeth done by someone who knows what there doing and bomb drench himm, thats worming once a week for 3 weeks. besure to poo pick so he doesnt reinfest.
and ricebran oil


----------



## questionable (Aug 5, 2009)

If you use beet pulp , please make sure that you soak it well, other wise a horse can choke , pasture feeding , deworming , fresh water , vet check , bring him in at night with a heaping pile of nice hay , see if he eats it , if so keep that up. You don't want to cram to much in the gut all at once , a good winter fating recipe is ... plent of good hay , fresh water and a scoop of hay stretcher with a coffe can of Vintage victory twice a day this feed is made by blue seal feeds in my area.


----------



## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

questionable said:


> If you use beet pulp , please make sure that you soak it well,


That is not correct. A horse that eats normally, has decent teeth, and isn't prone to choking on other feeds can eat dry beet pulp, dry or pelleted, just fine. The only types of horses that may choke an BP are ones that may choke on any other grain or horse feed.


----------



## charliBum (Jan 7, 2009)

hence her saying "can" choke


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

MTcowgirl said:


> But it I mean it's ridiculous to keep all those horses in one pen knowing that some are bully's and feed them all together at the same time and expect every horse to get even get enough food.


Obviously in this particular situation, it just wasn't good enough, but re the above comment, I'd say it's not rediculous at all... IF there was enough room that they could stay out of eachother's way & IF there was ample food in different areas.


----------



## angie22d (Jul 10, 2009)

i would put him on a fatty supplement with his feed the feed i used to fatten up my tb was 12% sweet feed and with in 3 weeks she was back to her normal self i would go and get some super 14 also for some vitamins kep up up dated on how he is doing


----------



## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

lots of HAY  I also like to give my TB Strategy or Equine Sr. to help out but really lots of hay is going to do the trick .. also like stated- please get some sort of blanket to compensate... try horseloverz.com they normally have decent prices for something that will work for the time being  

Good luck and I am so glad that you got him back!


----------



## charlene1985 (Aug 4, 2009)

I know that it has already been stated on here but i am a fan of rice bran oil as well. We have a gelding that colic(ed) off and on for about a week and dropped over 100 lbs and he was able to gain it back within 2 months being fed purina senior, beet pulp and rice bran oil. the only reason we didnt use rice bran is because of the amount of rice bran we would need to give him for the weight gain. 4-6 lbs of rice bran a day compared to 8 oz of rice bran oil...hmmm easy decision there lol. Anyways good luck on your boy.


----------



## charlene1985 (Aug 4, 2009)

id also like to add that i think its so funny to see ppl bickering back and forth on feeding regiments as one thing may work GREAT for one horse and may not work at all on another. Id say just do your research and also speak with your vet.


----------



## MTcowgirl (Jan 3, 2007)

loosie said:


> Obviously in this particular situation, it just wasn't good enough, but re the above comment, I'd say it's not rediculous at all... IF there was enough room that they could stay out of eachother's way & IF there was ample food in different areas.


it's ridiculous to keep "all those horses in one pen *knowing that some are bully's* and *feed them all together* *at the same time*"

Obviously that was not the situation and yes it is ridiculous given what I said. If I had said that there was ample room and she spread the food out then you would be correct but in fact I said the opposite. There are many situations that COULD have been acceptable but were not the case.

And thanks everyone so much for all of your suggestions and help! It has helped me quite a bit which will end up helping him. I can't wait to post pictures when he's got some meat and muscle on him! He is an absolutely beautiful horse, little mule-ish lol but very pretty.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

MTcowgirl said:


> it's ridiculous to keep "all those horses in one pen *knowing that some are bully's* and *feed them all together* *at the same time*"
> 
> Obviously that was not the situation and yes it is ridiculous given what I said. If I had said that there was ample room and she spread the food out then you would be correct but in fact I said the opposite.


I was just pointing out that it isn't *necessarily* rediculous, what you wrote. Not trying to say you were wrong in the least in this instance.:wink: It seems it's just a misunderstanding, that you may have meant the opposite, but that wasn't clear to me. You said 'pasture', which doesn't indicate much about the amount of room, aside from it generally meaning substantially bigger than a 'yard'. Feeding at the same time isn't a bad idea, and I didn't take 'all together' to mean in the one spot.

Cheers! I'm glad to hear the horse is out of the situation!


----------



## MTcowgirl (Jan 3, 2007)

loosie said:


> I was just pointing out that it isn't *necessarily* rediculous, what you wrote. Not trying to say you were wrong in the least in this instance.:wink: It seems it's just a misunderstanding, that you may have meant the opposite, but that wasn't clear to me. You said 'pasture', which doesn't indicate much about the amount of room, aside from it generally meaning substantially bigger than a 'yard'. Feeding at the same time isn't a bad idea, and I didn't take 'all together' to mean in the one spot.
> 
> Cheers! I'm glad to hear the horse is out of the situation!



I see, simple misunderstanding lol. And thanks, I am glad I got him out too. And I already know this horses potential. He's going to be great! I get to go and see him tomorrow and I'm very excited. I have wormer for both horses in the car and I'm already ready to go.

And I see what you mean. I have always fed all my horses at the same time. I just make sure that some horses are further away from the others depending on their dominance so that everyone gets their fair share.


----------



## redneckprincess70 (May 5, 2009)

As for the hair loss issue... check to see if he has lice or some type of parasite. There are powders and sprays you can get for this. If you have time, check the pictures of Kay on my profile. In Jan. of this year, she was 300 lbs. underweight, had skin fungus from a non-breathable blanket that was left on her all winter, and lice, which I treated with a powder that I applied regularly. Good luck and I'm glad you got him back.


----------



## MTcowgirl (Jan 3, 2007)

*Update*

Ok so I got to go down and see Vaguer today. He's looking a bit better, more shine to his coat, his hair is already growing back on those spots and he was really frisky. Lots of energy.

I am getting his beet pulp as soon as I get paid this week and my fiance's son lives right by there. He's going to be feeding him the beet pulp everyday for me since I can't go down everyday cry. I have to keep on telling myself that it's only been a little over a week since he came back to me and he's not going to gain all that weight overnight!

So here some pictures from today!









A little shinier!










Hair growing back!! Yay


----------



## MTcowgirl (Jan 3, 2007)

So I'd like a few opinions. Is this the progress he should be making? Does it seem like he should have done better after two weeks than this?


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

If you've noticed any improvement after only 2 weeks, I'd say you're well on track. The thing is, as with ourselves or any animal, rapid weight gain is not healthy, regardless of how 'poor' we may be. It's better to do it more gradually. While this horse is obviously way too thin, he's not skin & bone either, so if you have him on a good diet & well balanced nutrition, that should make the world of difference.


----------



## HeartMyOTTB (Aug 13, 2009)

In my experience, I have learned that beet pulp is pretty useless and doesn't actually offer that much nutritional value. Some people really believe in it though, so it couldn't hurt to throw it in with his grain. Generally, hay it what puts weight on, not grain. Try feeding hay by weight instead of flake count for a while. Throw him a substantial amount and if he eats it all, add a little more. When he starts leaving small scraps behind, you've found a good amount. 

Also, Coco-soya oil helps. It gives them some extra fat and it makes their coat shinny too! I had my horse on plain old corn oil for a while as a coco-soya substitute and it works just as well. Just throw a cup on with their grain.


----------



## redneckprincess70 (May 5, 2009)

Just keep up the good work and in 6 months he won't look like the same horse. Once again, check your suppliers for TDI senior feed. This will run a little more expensive then other feeds, but well worth it. It already carries a beet pulp and extra nutrients. You can Google TDI and it will give you all the info and where your closest supplier is. BTW--Bless you for saving this horse!!!


----------



## deineria (Mar 22, 2009)

Add Rice Bran and mix with Alfalfa pellets and you can do beet pulp, oats and/or a senior feed and he will GAIN WEIGHT. Poor Boy! Bless his heart!


----------



## LolaGirl160 (Sep 12, 2009)

We have this horse at my barn that is a seven yr old tb. He has alot of problems, that he shouldn't have. Especially his weight. So we feed him 4 flakes of hay at night and a scoop of senoir feed and 6 scoops of cool cals. And at noon 1 flake of alfalfa. And in the morning 3 flakes. He gained a bunch weight really quick. You could also feed corn oil. I heard it helps put on weight.


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

You could try feeding him dog food. It is very high in protien, very palatable and contains very very little animal protein. It is mostly grains. I haven't done it myself but I know a guy that did and it worked very well.


----------



## qtrhrsecrazy (Aug 2, 2009)

If available where you live, Nutrena Senior is wonderful.. it has beet pulp, probiotics, flax and rice bran included.

To speed up the process you can mix the Nutrena Senior with steamed rolled oats and alfalfa pellets.. a splash of corn oil if you want. This mix got weight on an old pony for me, then the Nutrena Senior maintained it really well alone.

Good luck!


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> You could try feeding him dog food. It is very high in protien, very palatable and contains very very little animal protein. It is mostly grains. I haven't done it myself but I know a guy that did and it worked very well.


:? There are many & varied things that people try their animals on... Some works, some doesn't... & some appears OK but who knows what it's doing to the horse's insides or long term. I'd take the above as a possibility, that you could put to an equine nutritionist or such. I wouldn't try it without checking it out with someone more knowledgeable than a guy who fed it. But being full of grain is something I'd generally steer clear of, for horse & dog alike. Not all dog food(& certainly not the type I buy) is low in animal protein & high in grain.


----------



## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

I fed my TB tribute calm ultra, but I don't know how easy that would be for you to get, it is pretty common around here. It does not have corn in it so it will not make him hot (even though I don't know if that is a problem with you, it was with me). He went from what you have to being fat and happy in about three months or so. I also feed it to my QH mare who is about 100-200 pounds underweight and in just two weeks you could see a change in her coat condition and her attitude, its been almost a month and I can already see her filling in around her hip bones which were really sticking out when I got her. I swear by this stuff. Its 15 dollars for a 50 pound bag around here.


----------



## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

getting his teeth checked is a very good idea ,as someone else said, and de- worming. i would get him a weight gain feed and some soaked sugarbeet, add some oil too, and i would give a couple of feeds a day; start out small and gradual, so his metabolism has time to adjust. and almagonN; i actually agree with you on this one! i'd be livid!!!


----------



## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

have just noticed someone said sugarbeet doesnt need to be soaked; unless you have a bag that states it does not need to be soaked, and i have never seen one, sugarbeet needs to be soaked, as it can expand in the horses gut -- it could be fatal. you can get a sugarbeet with reduced soaking time, which it will state clearly on the bag, but otherwise you need to soak it for 12 hours. ie bullying; i always feed separately; hay can be together, but always in more areas or piles than there are actual horses in paddock. the horse has a very sad expression; i would be looking at the expession in his eyes as an indication that he is feeling better in himself, more so than body condition, which will come more slowly. he looks traumatized to me. by the way, i personally would not even consider feeding a horse dogfood; apart from the ethics of it, do you actually know what goes into it? ( that is one of the oddest things i have ever heard!)


----------



## artistic cowgirl (Sep 19, 2009)

I don't know much about tb's but my saddlebred is a hard keeper and I have finally found a feed that is working wonders on him, its a performance feed from legends, southern states feed stores sells it the one I get from them has less proteins and more fat, I tried the senior feeds with mine but there is always less fat in them and didn't help him gain his weight.I would look at the feeds with more fat to them to help gain the weight its workin on my boy and if he is an easy keeper then that should help a lot.


----------



## Stencilbum (Oct 28, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> You could try feeding him dog food. It is very high in protien, very palatable and contains very very little animal protein. It is mostly grains. I haven't done it myself but I know a guy that did and it worked very well.


I'm sorry but this is possibly the worst advice which could be offered for a Thoroughbred.

Our TB Ebony had a systemic case of ringworm which made her look like a charity case (but not quite as bad as this poor chap)

She has always struggled to keep her weight on and lost a huge amount of weight due to the illness.

We were worried about this and asked advice from a local feed store who suggested a 'build up' mix which is high in protein. After a couple of weeks on this mix she 'tied up' (Azoturia) which causes muscle damage (the muscle fibres burst their cell membranes). It is like the worst cramp you could imagine and the whole of the horses back end seizes up so they can't put one foot in front of the other - it is very distressing for the animal and terrifying for the owners (you can work an attack off by gently walking them off for a couple of hours but we have had the very out on a few occasions to give muscle relaxants when the attacks have taken hold) 

Once they have it, they are prone to subsequent attacks and have to be warmed up and cooled down very carefully to reduce the risk of this happening again.

What we have found works for her in keeping the weight on and keeps the risk of 'tying up' low is a mix of un molassessed sugar beet and Alfa oil. You can also add vegetable oil to the feeds, but only in small doses as it works as a laxative if too much is used.

Stay well clear of molasses based chaff as well as this can make them very fizzy and if they are older and more prone to Diabetes, it will make them struggle to keep their sugars down (I am diabetic myself so I know how high sugar levels can make you feel rubbish)

Just to repeat this - please don't give high protein diets to horses (especially thoroughbreds). they can't cope with it.


----------



## artistic cowgirl (Sep 19, 2009)

artistic cowgirl said:


> I don't know much about tb's but my saddlebred is a hard keeper and I have finally found a feed that is working wonders on him, its a performance feed from legends, southern states feed stores sells it the one I get from them has less proteins and more fat, I tried the senior feeds with mine but there is always less fat in them and didn't help him gain his weight.I would look at the feeds with more fat to them to help gain the weight its workin on my boy and if he is an easy keeper then that should help a lot.


Legends Horse Feeds - Equussource by Southern States here is some more info on the feed I am feeding mine and hasving sucess with


----------



## deineria (Mar 22, 2009)

I haven't been on it long enough to see a lot of results, but I've added Triple Crown Complete and some of the first ingred. are beet pulp and rice bran and Flax Seed, so if you can't buy all the individual ingred. suggested here to get weight on him, this is a relatively cheap way to get them in him - $15 or so a 50lb bag. Add a scoop in the AM and PM. It is what I do now, and it is saves $ and is a fantastic feed, per so many recommendations I've gotten.

On the Beet Pulp, I fed it for over a year to 6 equines (5 horses, some senior and a pony), it was reg. beet pulp that many people soak, I NEVER soaked it, and only the pony would occassionally have issues with it, and so I stopped adding it to her feed since she honestly was too round anyway, I just gave it to her because everyone else got it. my vet said it was funny that people feel they will choke on beet pulp, but not hay - as far as expansion goes, that is something few people feed enough beet pulp per feeding to worry about - I did not.
I have stopped buying it/feeding it since I did not see, over all that time, it make any changes in the horses and it has a low fat content; however, the rice bran, alfalfa pellets and flax DO make a difference.

Thoroughbreds are going to be hard, like Arabs and Saddlebreds, to put weight on, and I honestly think, if he were an easy keeper and getting enough daily, he would show more improvement in 2 weeks, but there is more shine in his coat and he looks happier! I base this on rescues I've done and how quickly the easy keepers gain verses hard keepers.
You can add corn oil to mix his feed - this is a cheap way and quite safe. Iti s also something you can easily get, so maybe start with that  

Good Luck!


----------



## Stencilbum (Oct 28, 2009)

deineria said:


> I haven't been on it long enough to see a lot of results, but I've added Triple Crown Complete and some of the first ingred. are beet pulp and rice bran and Flax Seed, so if you can't buy all the individual ingred. suggested here to get weight on him, this is a relatively cheap way to get them in him - $15 or so a 50lb bag. Add a scoop in the AM and PM. It is what I do now, and it is saves $ and is a fantastic feed, per so many recommendations I've gotten.
> 
> On the Beet Pulp, I fed it for over a year to 6 equines (5 horses, some senior and a pony), it was reg. beet pulp that many people soak, I NEVER soaked it, and only the pony would occassionally have issues with it, and so I stopped adding it to her feed since she honestly was too round anyway, I just gave it to her because everyone else got it. my vet said it was funny that people feel they will choke on beet pulp, but not hay - as far as expansion goes, that is something few people feed enough beet pulp per feeding to worry about - I did not.
> I have stopped buying it/feeding it since I did not see, over all that time, it make any changes in the horses and it has a low fat content; however, the rice bran, alfalfa pellets and flax DO make a difference.
> ...


After seeing as horse colic and nearly die in our old yard (and the vet presenting the owner with a $1500USD bill), I would be very wary of giving any feed which could swell up and cause a blockage in the gut. We use a product called speed beet which is crushed pellets. The recommended soak time is 24 hours for the regular stuff, but the speed beet was fit to eat in 1/2 hour.

If the horse eats a load of this stuff dry and has a drink 6 hours later, it could be well into the intestines before it starts to swell. For the sake of a bit of planning, it isn't IMO worth the risk.

Agree with the corn oil mixed in with the feed bit though - non heating but good for weight gain.

When a horse is that skinny, I'd want to see it stabled and rugged all the winter (not over though so it starts to sweat its condition off), and not worked hard either as it will drop its weight as well if this is the case.

More a case of conservation till the spring grass comes through.


----------



## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

There is a fairly local feed mill (in Aiken, SC) called Banks Mill. I started using their Elite brand feed about 6 months ago and I've seen a positive difference in my horses - especially in 2 ponies and a gelding that I took in to condition for an owner.

The top 3 analysis are Crude Protein, Crude Fat, both at 10%; then Crude Fiber at 14%. The top several ingredients are: Beet Pulp, Oats, Corn, Stabilized Rice Brand, Wheat Midds, Soy Hulls, then Soybean Meal.

What I've noticed is that I'm using less to maintain weight, and if I'm feeding a normal quantity, my horses are gaining weight much more rapidly. They also have free choice hay during the day when they are in the paddock and pasture from the late afternoon through the night.

As for the fear that beet pulp will expand in a horse's gut if it isn't soaked, that is an old wive's tale that has been disproved years ago.


----------



## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

i wouldnt take the risk of feeding it unsoaked; i wouldnt want to cause my horse pain or myself a big vets bill. it is absolutely no trouble at all to fill a bucket of sugarbeet to soak in, when you feed on the first day, and then it will be ready for the next day. it takes a minute to do this-- time well spent. i think any thing other than soaking is foolhardy, apart from which it takes the horse more time to eat it soaked;, so mixed with thier other food , thier food ration lasts longer, and it tastes better for them too


----------



## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

just want to add, have any of the people who suggest feeding dog food took note of what happened ie mad cow desease, here in uk? 10s of thousands of cattle killed because some bright spark scientist decided it was ok to feed a herbivore feed containing the tissue and organs of its own species.. i really think this is a very bad idea; there are plenty of horse feed formulas to get results with.


----------



## deineria (Mar 22, 2009)

I've known horsesthat wouldn't touch beet pulp soaked (or alfalfa pellets soaked, as many people recommend, but I feed dry with no issues), but again, it is a personal choice. I can hear stories from people that say not to feed it dry, but I have practical application that shows it can be totally safe and work quite well dry. . . however, like I mentioned, I did not get any visible results from it, so there was no reason to keep using it - though it is a top ingred. in Triple Crown Complete, which I do feed.
Now, I wouldn't feed it in massive quantities - like a hay substitute or such - dry. . . but you will find most people have never seen a negative problem from feeding it dry, they have just heard from someone who knew someone with a horse who would choke, etc, on it. I think the dry feeding gets blown out of proportion to a great extent because I have had no problems and have never known anyone who feeds it as a supplement to have a dry feeding problem. 
Just got to watch and see what works for your horse.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

> Thoroughbreds are going to be hard, like Arabs and Saddlebreds, to put weight on,


I disagree with that. I've never found it difficult to put weight on a *healthy* TB, arab, or any other breed. However, they are a finer build of horses, so if you're trying to make them the shape of a stocky QH or clydie x, then that will be difficult - not no mention bad for the horse.



> just want to add, have any of the people who suggest feeding dog food took note of what happened ie mad cow desease


Hope my response to that suggestion wasn't taken as advocating it at all - Think I'm the only one who replied in a way that wasn't totally negative... mainly because I was trying to be reasonable & diplomatic about my response, not because I think it's at all a good idea(even if it were devoid of animal protein, because it's rich in grain). But completely off topic I know, wasn't mad cow disease a viral or thing? How did eating the same species cause it?


----------



## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

i just want to make one more point about sugarbeet; those of you who advocate feeding it dry and say you have no results with it; maybe thats because you arent soaking it and therefore the body is not able to breakdown its goodness, before the digestive tract passes it through, thankfully without causing your horses damage (yet).sorry, but i i advise everyone not to take the risk.


----------



## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

Stencilbum said:


> After a couple of weeks on this mix she 'tied up' (Azoturia) which causes muscle damage (the muscle fibres burst their cell membranes). It is like the worst cramp you could imagine and the whole of the horses back end seizes up so they can't put one foot in front of the other - it is very distressing for the animal and terrifying for the owners (you can work an attack off by gently walking them off for a couple of hours but we have had the very out on a few occasions to give muscle relaxants when the attacks have taken hold)
> 
> Once they have it, they are prone to subsequent attacks and have to be warmed up and cooled down very carefully to reduce the risk of this happening again.



ok whoa whoa whoa. i HAVE to comment on this. there are a few flaws here. first, tying up doesnt just effect the horses back end, its the whole body. 

secondly YOU DO NOT WALK A HORSE WHO IS TIED UP!!!!! this USED to be the belief a long time ago. but this is NOT right. when a horse ties up, you leave them in a stall or wherever they tied up. BLANKET them. they will sweat from tying up, and you dont want them to cool off, keeping the blanket on keeps the heat in and helps to loosen their muscles. let the horse come out of it on their own. walking them only causes MORE damage. just check the horse to make sure they urinate and deficate. and dont be alarmed if the urine is darkly colored, this is very typical of tying up. the worse it was, the darker the urine will be. 

also some TQ or painkillers like injectable bute or banamine will help bring a horse out of a tye up.

sorry its off topic a little. i just dont like seeing horses walked when they are tied up.


----------



## deineria (Mar 22, 2009)

I should have said if they are running already under weight, but I do equine rescue and I raise SE and Non SE Arabs, and I have heard the same thing over and over from other rescues. My SE stallion came from as one of the largest breeders of SE Arabs in 500 miles, and they echoed the same opinion: many Arabs are harder keepers. I have three, all healthy, and they are just not that easy to keep weight on like some of the others. They run a body score of 4 without a LOT of work on my end. Also, I've found the same to be true of Saddlebreds, and the vet concurred when he was out - when I asked what I might do further for their body scores, and he said, "That is about as good as it might get for them," because, he said, of their breeds."
I have just heard many people in rescue and otherwise say Thoroughbreds are similar to the Saddlebreds and Arabs, maybe it doesn't apply to them.

On beet pulp, again, The beet pulp is no more difficult to break down hay - one can find this if they just handle it verses hay. If a horse is able to digest hay,which it does, it can digest and absorb the beet pulp - stomach acids break it down, believe me. Again, my vet agreed with the soaked verses unsoaked. I have practical application showing it does not cause harm over the course of a year and many horses. Whether anyone else wants to feed it dry is totally up to them. Beet pulp If your horse will eat it wet, by all means, soak it. 
http://www.shady-acres.com/susan/beetpulp.shtml
This is a nice article on beet pulp - and it explains anything you'd need to know about it, why feeding it dry is okay, what its nutritional value is, etc.


----------



## Stencilbum (Oct 28, 2009)

AlmagroN said:


> ok whoa whoa whoa. i HAVE to comment on this. there are a few flaws here. first, tying up doesnt just effect the horses back end, its the whole body.
> 
> secondly YOU DO NOT WALK A HORSE WHO IS TIED UP!!!!! this USED to be the belief a long time ago. but this is NOT right. when a horse ties up, you leave them in a stall or wherever they tied up. BLANKET them. they will sweat from tying up, and you dont want them to cool off, keeping the blanket on keeps the heat in and helps to loosen their muscles. let the horse come out of it on their own. walking them only causes MORE damage. just check the horse to make sure they urinate and deficate. and dont be alarmed if the urine is darkly colored, this is very typical of tying up. the worse it was, the darker the urine will be.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I might have mislead a bit. The two full attacks she had, they rooted her to the spot, the vet has been called and the drugs had been administered, but when we have since seen her showing the signs of tying up, we have rugged immediately and moved her back to the stable which is close by to rest, and she has come out of it on her own in a couple of hours. We give her bute, put epsom salts into her water, cut her feed back etc. 

When she was walked gently with the last attack it didn't go full blown as had done when the vet was called out, and her urine didn't darken afterwards. My daughter recognised the signs as she was warming her up and felt her shorten her stride underneath her, called for me to bring the rug, dropped the saddle off and given her a hollowed apple with a couple of doses of bute in it. 

If I cramp up and catch it early enough, I can walk it off. If I don't manage this and the muscle locks completely, I wouldn't attempt to walk on it and look to rest it ASAP.

Your advice is best practice whenever it is possible to adhere to it.


----------



## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

Stencilbum said:


> put epsom salts into her water


ive never done this. and never thought about doing it. how effective does this seem?

also- tying up doesnt always show itself visually the same. classic tying up a horse will seem stiff, sweat, etc. NOW- i had a horse named Almagro. he wouldnt race as great as he should have, but then after the race he would be nuts in his stall while stripping and washing him. he would paw, pace back and forth- foward and back. which was not him. he was normally a very calm calm horse. so we pulled blood. it showed he was tying up. he never showed any signs of it though. this is what my vets called an "internal tye up". the horse is still tying up, but never shows the physical signs. 
strange huh?


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AlmagroN said:


> the horse is still tying up, but never shows the physical signs.


I'd say your description of his behaviour constitutes obvious physical signs.

'Tying up' or cramps, in horses as with people, is likely to be a nutrient imbalance or deficiency, particularly of magnesium. That is why treating with epsom salts or other forms of magnesium is effective. But along with dosing with ES, if/when the problems arise, I'd be ensuring the horse(& human) had well balanced nutrition & ample magnesium in his diet at all times, not just to treat the prob, but to prevent it happening.


----------



## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

loosie said:


> I'd say your description of his behaviour constitutes obvious physical signs.


a horse freaking out is obvious signs of tying up? actually no, it isnt. horses typically dont move MORE when they tie up, they move LESS. what he was showing is classical signs of a horse that BLED, but that isnt what happened.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AlmagroN said:


> a horse freaking out is obvious signs of tying up? actually no, it isnt.


Oh, sorry, I meant sign of discomfort/pain, not specifically tying up symptom.


----------



## Stencilbum (Oct 28, 2009)

AlmagroN said:


> *ive never done this. and never thought about doing it. how effective does this seem?*
> 
> also- tying up doesnt always show itself visually the same. classic tying up a horse will seem stiff, sweat, etc. NOW- i had a horse named Almagro. he wouldnt race as great as he should have, but then after the race he would be nuts in his stall while stripping and washing him. he would paw, pace back and forth- foward and back. which was not him. he was normally a very calm calm horse. so we pulled blood. it showed he was tying up. he never showed any signs of it though. this is what my vets called an "internal tye up". the horse is still tying up, but never shows the physical signs.
> strange huh?


 
After her first attack, I was advised to add a handful of it to her water bucket intermittently by a racehorse trainer, especially after a lay off of work, but it taints the water so only a handful in a big bucket. 

TBH, I've been reluctant to use it too often becuase I've been a bit worried about the risk of high salt in her diet, but since doing a bit of reading up, it (Magnesium sulfate) is widely reported to be of theraputic use in reducing strokes and heart attacks as well as helping muscle function so I'm a bit happier about it. the only thing is that they drink from a trough in the field and it is so expensive to buy, I don't want to give it to the other horses who use it so we have to bring her in for a day or so so that is all she can drink. 

Epsom Salt Council - Health - Why It Works


----------



## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

interesting. we have atually used RVI (rubeola virus immunomodulator) to treat horses that tie up chronically. and its probably the best thing i have ever used.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Stencilbum said:


> TBH, I've been reluctant to use it too often becuase I've been a bit worried about the risk of high salt in her diet,...


Yeah, it's not sodium tho. There are a variety of minerals they often call 'salts' but aren't sodium. Epsom Salts is pretty high in Mg tho, so not sure whether that would be a good thing to give routinely or put in water all the time. Would depend how much Mg they're getting in their diet too. I prefer having a basic diet analysis to go off, then using a good complete supp with enough Mg *that's well balanced with other nutrients* as balance is just about as important as getting enough of the necessary ingredients.


----------



## Hunter (Oct 9, 2009)

Throw him out in a feild with ALOT of hay with maybe another horse he knows for a bit before winter, feed him older horses feed, give him lots of grain. : ) Hope that helps.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hunter said:


> give him lots of grain.


Potentially very dangerous advice. :-(


----------



## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

lillie said:


> have just noticed someone said sugarbeet doesnt need to be soaked; unless you have a bag that states it does not need to be soaked, and i have never seen one, sugarbeet needs to be soaked, as it can expand in the horses gut -- it could be fatal. you can get a sugarbeet with reduced soaking time, which it will state clearly on the bag,


This is false. Look at the horse's digestive system.. There is a reason a horse CAN (not shouldn't) eat a bag of feed in one sitting. The stomach doesn't get full its the hind gut. Do you really think even 5 lbs (not saying you should feed 5lbs in one sitting either) of unsoaked beet pulp is going to make a difference? Also if we measure out 1 lb of Beet pulp and 1lb of strategy and 1lb of alfalfa pellets and 1 cup of veg oil and soak it for 12 hours or whatever.. in the end technically there's still only 1 lb of beet pulp whether its been expanded or not. 


To the OP I would worm him with injectable ivermectin to make dang sure he gets it all.. and then again in 6 weeks or so. I don't really want to debate over diet...you've got some good responses (except the dog food one lol), looks like this guy could use a few trips to the buffet so at this point just feeding him will do him some good! I would blanket him... especially for montana.. I would also check his teeth as other posters have said.

What is his feeding routine now? Is he fed near other horses? If that's the case that would be the first problem to fix. If you have to feed him near others or he spills alot, I would use a feed bag (.. it may be difficult with the amount of food you may have to give him but as long as you have it adjusted as big as you can get it could help out alot. Also with that amount of food, I would put a fleece crown cover over the strap... 5 lbs of nylon pressure behind their ears looks uncomfortable even though its only momentarily.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

starlinestables said:


> This is false. Look at the horse's digestive system.. There is a reason a horse CAN (not shouldn't) eat a bag of feed in one sitting. The stomach doesn't get full its the hind gut. Do you really think even 5 lbs (not saying you should feed 5lbs in one sitting either) of unsoaked beet pulp is going to make a difference?


Huh?? Don't really follow what you're trying to say here, but it sounds like you're disregarding the idea of feed swelling & causing problems. What *it sounds to me you're saying*(note I'm not entirely sure) is definitely incorrect. Not only can large meals of anything, let alone things fed dry that may swell, let alone full bags(!), cause serious digestive upsets, but the stomach & intestines can definitely rupture from swelling feed. Sadly I know this from first hand experience, not with beet pulp, but wheat. 

Worked on a farm once where they kept a bag of wheat for the chooks in the horse's tack room. One night a tricky mini horse broke in & got into the wheat. Worked out later that he'd only eaten about 1kg(2 pounds?), but that was enough. We found him dead the next morning. The (rich) owners decided to get an autopsy done & his stomach & hindgut were both ruptured from the expanding grain.


----------



## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

Loosie, any type of feed that a horse gorges himself on can cause problems. However, beet pulp has been PROVEN, by vet school studies, NOT to swell in a horse's stomach or esophagus when fed dry. In a few different studies, horses were fed up to 50% of their daily forage intake with beet pulp in its two different forms, pelleted and shredded, DRY and NONE of the horses had any signs of colic or digestive upset.

A horse's stomache can hold approximately 5-7 lbs of hard feed at any one time (10 qts, I think). It only takes 15-20 minutes for that food to be processed out of the stomach. 

Now, if the horse bolts his feed down or can't/won't chew properly, then choke can be a concern. But, choke would be a concern with ANY kind of hard feed (grain, pellets, textured) or hay cubes.

Feeding beet pulp wet or dry, for most horses, is simply personal preference for the owner and the horse. Some horses prefer it wet, some prefer it dry. Some owners don't want to risk choke or need it wet to mix in supplements. Some prefer the ease of mixing it dry in to other grains or feeds. It's all up to the owner to choose, wet or dry.


----------



## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

loosie said:


> The (rich) owners decided to get an autopsy done & his stomach & hindgut were both ruptured from the expanding grain.


It's much more likely that the grain didn't expand and cause rupture, the pony simply ate too much and his stomach ruptured. After it ruptured, the grain soaked up blood and other bodily fluids, expanding post mortem or as he died.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

luvs2ride1979 said:


> Loosie, any type of feed that a horse gorges himself on can cause problems. However, beet pulp has been PROVEN, by vet school studies, NOT to swell in a horse's stomach or esophagus when fed dry.


OK, didn't know that. I know little about beet pulp. Was responding to what *I thought* was being said only.



> It's much more likely that the grain didn't expand and cause rupture, the pony simply ate too much and his stomach ruptured. After it ruptured, the grain soaked up blood and other bodily fluids, expanding post mortem or as he died.


I was just telling what the vets told us as fact. Mind you, should know better than to state it as fact myself... just because an 'expert' asserts something....:wink: Interested to know why you think it wasn't likely the case tho?


----------



## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

I would be very wary of giving the horse too much weight gain feed too quickly. It could cause laminitis and digestive issues. I would follow the advice of good hay and some type of feed supplement. (beet pulp or something else like that) I hope that he gets better soon.  You may be able to find some kind of supplement to help him get his hair back more quickly. Good Luck, adn I'm glad you got him.


----------



## Kashmere (Nov 30, 2009)

Gosh I will keep him in my thoughts!!
I hope he'll be fine for winter


----------

