# What should I know before diving into endurance?



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

The rules are quite simple in endurance. Stay on the trail for the appointed distance, get your horse's heart rate to the appointed number, then get through the vet check in the required time. No drugs for the horse, lots of water, lots of feed and hay. You have to finish on the same horse you started. You can take all the drugs you want!

This is tongue in cheek, of course. I would liked to have had a pop up timer on my horse that told me she was conditioned enough.....it was so scary not knowing if we had done enough to get through the ride, but in reality, she was practically conditioned enough to do a 100 !


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I'll try to put this as delicately as it was put to me by a long time endurance rider....it can be rough on your lady parts if you get lazy in the seat.


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## EncinitasM (Oct 5, 2014)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I'll try to put this as delicately as it was put to me by a long time endurance rider....it can be rough on your lady parts if you get lazy in the seat.


It must be brutal on the male parts then... :-(


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

You want THE MOST COMFORTABLE SADDLE EVER MADE!!
Endurance is really just longer and longer distanced trail riding, except that you are competing with others, although you get credit for finishing. You need to learn how to build up and maintain your horse's physical condition and your own shape, too.
You must train your horse to great obedience. Many times endurance riders dismount and give their horses a break by letting them pull you up a slope with their tail. If your horse runs off, you won't get very far.
You will be constantly training. Show horses get to take the winter off. Endurance horses get breaks to recover and then you ride, and ride, and ride, and ride...
You also need to be patient and keep your horses sound. Pulling muscles and pulling up lame and then waiting to recover means that you are not training smart. Better to compete at shorter distances than to push your or your horse too hard.
You will want short term goals and long term goals. Good luck.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Incitatus32 said:


> So after finding that I have an Endurance association in my neck of the woods, and have always had a longing for endurance riding (and after finding this:What is The Long Riders Guild? which is now on my bucket list) I'm thinking about doing endurance with my colt when he comes of age, which will be a while lol.
> 
> So my question is simple: What do you wish you'd known before going into endurance? And can you describe the rules to me? I read them on their website but wasn't quite sure I understood them so I'd love to have someone who's done some rides explain them to me. lol


You are probably already aware of this, but I'm going to say it just in case. Don't confuse apples with oranges. Endurance vs long distance riding (even if endurance racers call it long distance riding it's not the same thing...endurance racing is much, much shorter "distance riding")

What you're looking at with the "long riders" is not endurance racing. Endurance is a race. A set number of miles over set number of days (usually 1 - 3 days depending on the distances and then you have ones like the Tevis cup...100 miles in one day) with rules and requirements. Distance riding has nothing to do with how fast you get anywhere. There is no such thing as losing, winning or being disqualified :lol:. No rules, some state or local "laws", a whole lot of common sense and knowledge about the horse. They are very different types of riding with very different needs and training requirements. If you want to do endurance riding you want to talk with people who do that (it's the larger of the two and easy to find people who train for and enjoy endurance racing). You'll have to build up your horse's endurance for speed (paying close attention to the physical effect and recover time). If you want to ride long distances (not racing) you first want to have your head examined :lol::lol:. If you still want to after that then the short (very short) list which would need to be massively expounded on:

If your mount's cannon bones are not of sufficient size and density for the total weight it will be carrying (weight of the horse, saddle/tack, camping gear, food, rider, etc...) you'll need to start working on remodeling them. Most horses have cannon bones built up just large enough to carry themselves which works fine for the kind of riding done by 99% of the riding that's done on most horses. But they aren't being riding long distances day after day after day for weeks. (I generally plan/recommend 4-6 days riding, depending on when I find a place I can camp for a couple days to give a couple days rest. Roughly 100 miles per week...it's not a race, it's about going a long way with a healthy, sound horse at start and finish no matter how many weeks it takes you).

Work on strengthening it's loins. A short back is ideal, but there's nothing you can actually do about the length of their back and it doesn't prevent them from being successful at it.

Get a comfortable, great fitting saddle (forget shimming them) for your horse (and comfortable for you too...you'll be spending a LOT of time in it). You really don't want to be 200+ miles out and laid up because your mount has a sore back.

Train your horse to camp (hobble, picket, etc....) and all that comes with it. This is real camping, not trailer camping. You'll want to practice it so your horse learns things like how to drink when water is available (which might only be a couple of times a day in some cases) as well as other aspects of the ordeal....I mean adventure :lol:. (by the way...when thinking about "your" water remember that 1 gal of water weighs over 8 lbs so keep finding potable water for you in mind...or tablets ) 

Learn to get by with very little and make sure the little you have is light weight (e.g. mess kit + titanium cup and Billy pot...about 1 lb, maybe less). Remember that your horse has to carry EVERYTHING. Do your absolute best to keep the total weight carried down to 20% or less for most of the days your riding. (it's the lbs being carried that will break them down long before the miles your riding will).

Work out your logistics. Easy enough to get things for yourself in route. Not always so easy getting things for the horse.

Recommend not being shod. If their feet aren't already tough, start toughening them up. You really don't want to carry shoes (think of what they weigh). If you must...boots can be lighter and used if/when a needed situation arises, but conditioned feet are always great.

That's a few of the highlights. Gives you something to digest. There's a lot more, but if you start training and preparing you figure out a lot of them. Training usually has the effect of changing peoples mind about it. Endurance racing is easier  (support teams, camp sites, trailers and a LOT less time in the saddle). You might find it the better choice


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

Thanks for the replies everyone!  

its lbs not miles: Yeah I'm pretty crazy, however, I figured endurance would be a nice start into learning proper conditioning of a mount and learning what I'm seeking conformation wise (as well as giving me a small taste of the riding element for myself). haha, I don't really expect to do anymore than one longride in my life and that will probably be YEARS ahead from me now. 

I do have another question, my prospect (my coming two year old who won't be broke for another two years or so) I share with my mother. Understandably the want to do even low level endurance and other like classes is mine; but she prefers to show him in breed events (so he's just a regular all around show/trail mount for our family prospect). Would this be feasible doing alongside very low level endurance? (just sporadically, not every weekend or week is going to be showing then endurance or back to back. It would mostly just be a few shows here and there then an endurance ride.) 

I know ultimately a lot of that depends on him as an individual but I was wondering if anyone had any experience going from showing to endurance or using showing to help build up endurance. 

Thanks again for the replies! My guy's slowly maturing into one of those horses who likes doing a little bit of everything so I'm hopeful that he'll enjoy being an all around horse mentally. (Still waiting on the physical side as he's a bit of a late bloomer and makes me worried that he's not even going to grow big enough for me!!!! :shock


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Incitatus32 said:


> Thanks for the replies everyone!
> 
> its lbs not miles: Yeah I'm pretty crazy, however, I figured endurance would be a nice start into learning proper conditioning of a mount and learning what I'm seeking conformation wise (as well as giving me a small taste of the riding element for myself). haha, I don't really expect to do anymore than one longride in my life and that will probably be YEARS ahead from me now.
> 
> ...


Two things.
There's nothing wrong with doing Endurance if it's something you want to try and so long as your horse remains sound it shouldn't hurt it's prospects for being trained and conditioned for long distance riding. That being said, the training and conditioning is different. Endurance racing will not prepare your horse for long distance riding (and visa versa). Think of training for and running marathons and 1/2 marathons. Then one day I hand you a 150 lb back pack and say "put it on, because we're hiking from Miami Beach to Seattle". Yes, you're in great physical shape....for running a lot of miles and then recovering, but you're not ready for the ordeal...Ok, adventure :lol:, of hiking over 4,000 miles and dealing with all that will entail while carrying everything you'll be living with on your back.

Since you brought up the age of your horse and your plans I'll make some comments that most people will not agree with (and some won't like) :lol:.

Endurance racing has many wonderful aspects to it that most other racing should have for the sake of the horses, but don't. Most notably rules about the age and condition of the horse.
Most of the endurance races I know of require a horse to be at least 60 months old (not like the 2 years old based on a bogus January birthdate like TB racing). There is a logical, medical reasoning behind those 60 months. A horse's joints mature from the foot up. Gender, stallions take longer than mares, (and possibly size) plays a large part in where horse will be in the range of months required. Not going to cover every joint, but as an example. Leg joints don't finish (foot to scapula) until around 36 - 42 months. The back can take 4.5 - 5.5 years before it's mature and ready (the last area to finish is around the base of the neck which matures after the back). For me, with my horses, I don't swing my 160 lbs into a saddle on their back until they have reached 54 months and for the first 6+ months I go pretty easy on how long actually ride them. Of course the time prior to that is not wasted. They learn to be saddled, ponied, get use to traffic and a variety of other training points are worked on while I wait for them to reach an age when I'll start working them from on top . But that's all a purely personal choice for me based on the how the horse physically matures. If they're really receptive and learn easily there's time to teach them things like how to take a nap with you (their neck is a great pillow). Useless I suppose, but it's hard to beat a mid day nap with your horse. (which is completely off the subject :lol


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

You cannot train a horse too much. Personally I think the maJORity of horses get rushed to showing. If you use this horse for endurance and showing, he'll probably be the most fit and best behaved in the ring.
I have told you'all that my lesson horses got >1,000 hours under saddle every year. I never considered this until last year. They were very fit and not winded at the end of CW Event battle, even and especially the National ones, where we saw other people's horses dragging.
People used to USE their horses, TWH's who would plow a field and be ridden or drive a cart into town for supplies, often same day. (Read some diaries.) We think that multi-disciplines is a new thing, but it isn't.
I think YOUR only problem will be planning patience. You shouldn't really work your 2yo hard until his bones are set, and that will be 3-4 years from now.
I would suggest total obedience training and master the very basics of moving away from you and towards you on cue this year. If you could pony him, too, this will teach manners under saddle. Horses that fight while you are riding is not only disrespectful but can be downright dangerous if your horse starts a fight and a seasoned bully ends it. This nasty, green 8yo 14hh QH mare that I bought kicked "Corporal" (15'1hh) _so hard_ that he cantered away on 3 legs and I thought I was going to have to put him down, until he began to limp on the 4th leg. (I would have also put a revolver full of bullets into HER brain, if that had happened bc it was UNPREVOKED.) Size is NO indication of another horse's power or attitude.
You need to keep a good photo diary and share it with us. =D


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

I didn't mean it to sound like I was starting him and showing him just yet. lol I probably should have clarified. He'll be started under saddle lightly about his four year old year (depending on maturity and what the vet says. Right now he's way too small and still in a predominately gawky phase lol the type where his knees are like mellons and his butt is like mt. everest on crack, and his shoulders are somwhere in the middle), his size is just a factor for myself as if he's small and fine boned I won't be hefting my big body on him :lol: 

I definitely will be starting a thread with him about his training! He's just so inquisitive and is really 'mentally there'. He's just a general ham (he's probably the only horse I've met who ate part of a surcingle when it was put on him during desensitizing lol. As soon as he's gelded we'll be starting some long lining and more 'walking trails' down the road and through parades and whatnot (only reason I haven't done so yet is that he was so well behaved around mares in heat while being worked with and handled by amateurs and experienced people, I thought he deserved a year turned out with a herd instead of working). He's super easy going about EVERYTHING so I'm really in no rush with him. I'd rather him be broke at 10 and be done right then be broke at 2 and rushed. And corporal I have had horses I've tried to kill after they hurt one of the good ones. One in training almost didn't make it out alive after he almost killed an older lesson horse. Wish I had a horse to pony with but all I've got in right now are over-reactive green broke horses....  He's pretty much the best example mentally I've seen of an old style and new style mix of Morgan Horse, physically I've got hopes but we'll see. Honestly can't say a lot of bad about his breeding, and he's definitely a stunner personality wise. 

its lbs: That is adorable and Really, I don't mind going WAAAAY off topic for adorable! lol I'll need to find a pic of my guy practicing being a contortionist. I'm still convinced he's gonna break a leg with how much he bends and stretches to get the grass on the other side of the fence (because the grass on his side isn't good enough)! I'm still trying to get used to what a ham he is! And how quick he is!


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Sounds like you have a Very good plan! Do you have any friends with seasoned horses who may be able to pony him once in awhile? It doesn't take a lot of training to do so, just the right training. =D


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

I'm trying to get a couple, we do have a seasoned horse but he's in his thirties so I try not to use him too terribly much. Other than that there are a couple horses in training we (meaning me and my boss) are sure could be sufficient lead horses for him, but they're mares so for a while they'll be out of our pool! ;-) lol I might be a slight risk taker, but I'm not going to risk that just yet. Worst case scenario I know he'll be learning to pony off of my new truck (sounds weird but it's pretty common in my area to desensitize horses to being around loud machinery lol) I just have to pay off the truck lol

And thanks, I try to be prepared, it's often a little difficult to convince people that he's going to be broke when he gets broke. They seem to think if he sets he'll be 'ruined'. haha Horses are just ready when they're ready and he's not quite there yet.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Weeeelllll, if those same people start paying for your hay and grain and odd horses costs, then they can tell you what to do!


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Corporal said:


> You will be constantly training. Show horses get to take the winter off. Endurance horses get breaks to recover and then you ride, and ride, and ride, and ride...


I don't agree with this, and hate to see people new to the sport scared away by thinking they won't/can't have time to prepare. While there is more riding and less long breaks while getting a new-to-the-sport horse going, I would not say constant _conditioning_ is needed when starting out. While conditioning is important, rest is critical. If you think of the physiology behind what you are doing (pushing to the point of slightly breaking the tissue down so that it builds back stronger than before), then you will understand why the rest period is such a big deal. Training - as in making sure the horse has all the necessary skills to succeed in life - is constant. I know many people, myself included, who started out only being able to ride once or twice a week and were able to condition their horses appropriately.

Horses achieve and maintain their cardio fitness much better than people, but building up the bone and soft tissues take much longer. Someone starting out would be looking to do longer, slower distances than a seasoned horse, starting out with whatever level they are at now and increasing either distance or speed gradually. Once a horse reaches a certain level, they can maintain that level for weeks (unlike me, who I swear can lose condition after a week off). Heck, a lot of seasoned horses are barely ridden for conditioning outside of competition at all, unless there are training issues that need attention. Our horses get the winter off ever year! It's wonderful for them physically and mentally.





Incitatus32 said:


> I do have another question, my prospect (my coming two year old who won't be broke for another two years or so) I share with my mother. Understandably the want to do even low level endurance and other like classes is mine; but she prefers to show him in breed events (so he's just a regular all around show/trail mount for our family prospect). Would this be feasible doing alongside very low level endurance? (just sporadically, not every weekend or week is going to be showing then endurance or back to back. It would mostly just be a few shows here and there then an endurance ride.)


Cross-training is fantastic for all horses, and I know many people who use their endurance horses for all sorts of other things. Most common is either dressage or fox hunting, but I also know a couple people who event and one who does hunters. A friend with a younger horse coming along told her trainer she wanted that horse going to some event every weekend, be that eventing or team penning or dressage! That horse has a very active brain and needs the challenge of a variety of things to keep her from creating her own boredom-busters. :wink:




Incitatus32 said:


> Worst case scenario I know he'll be learning to pony off of my new truck (sounds weird but it's pretty common in my area to desensitize horses to being around loud machinery lol)


I think this is a great idea, even once you find an appropriate pony horse. Our horses will pony from the back of a truck, an ATV, or the bucket of the tractor. While you may not be able to go on every trail you could with a horse, you can expose your horse to a lot of things.


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## Drifting (Oct 26, 2011)

This article was in the Trail Riding Magazine. It's a good read.

Endurance Riding 101 | The Trail Rider

I'm on a lot of the endurance pages in Facebook and learn a lot from reading there too (just wade through the different opinions.  )

I plan on doing an LD when my horse turns 5, then I can get it counted towards ApHC awards too  ... that's in 2 years though. For now this year he's being started and we'll spend the time doing trails, learning to pick up leads, more trails, and some lessons together. Slow riding this year since I don't want to stress him and he is still young.


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## Jana F (Feb 13, 2015)

Sounds like a wonderful horse and good natured for endurance riding. Did you start that other thread on him and his training? Agree with the main points in this thread as comfort above all else both for you and your horse.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

I haven't yet, I've been busy with school and trying to get everything set up to get him gelded! :lol: Hopefully by June or July he'll be gelded and ready to really start the training.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Watching the 'big boys' (and girls) ride n distance riding, is fascinating. I only competed once as I never had the time to really condition a horse for the big rides. 

The one thing that most of these riders have taught themselves is to get out the saddle, let the horse have its head and travel at whatever pace with the rider having an inner clock to know how far they have travelled in the time.


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## Janet Cherry (Jul 13, 2009)

Keep it down to 20% of what?


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Janet Cherry said:


> Keep it down to 20% of what?


20% of the horse's body weight. (i.e. total weight carried for a 1,000 horse would be 200 lbs....saddle, rider, gear, supplies, etc..)
For the typical North American and European rider (and probably most areas in the world today) this won't really apply since the typical rider (90% of the riding population) makes very little physical demands on their horse. Their horses are seldom ridden more than a few hours a week. Many don't average 5 miles a week over an entire year. These horses are basically not working (which I'm sure they don't mind :lol. Plenty of time for them to recover from any adverse effects since the spend more days doing nothing than they do being ridden.

There is, however, a very, very, very small percentage of riders (I'm talking percentages, not raw numbers) who do work their horses and place real physical demands on them. Of that group of riders there is a small percentage who make an even greater demands. This group (which anyone who is going to do any distance riding will fall into) needs to take 3 primary things into account. Many people know the 20% rule, but most don't realize that it's only 1 of 3 items. Physically they need to consider their horses cannon bones and loin width. The third item is the amount of weight they expect the horse to carry. Once these are correct they can worry about all the other items. (what, you thought there was only 3 things you had to worry about? :lol

Loin width is a bit subjective, but I'm sure anyone experienced with horses can look at a group of horses and tell which once have the strongest loins vs ones with more narrow, less robust loins. They can be improved if needed.

Cannon bones there is a formula for calculating. Measure the circumference of the middle of the cannon bone half way between it's joint at the fetlock and it's joint at the knee. Take total weight that will be distributed onto the horses legs (the weight of the horse, rider, saddle, gear, etc....). Divide the total weight by the circumference. Then divide that answer by 2. If the final total is 75 or less then that horse's cannon bones are ready for that weight and you won't need to worry about doing any remodeling. If the answer isn't over 80 then you're getting there and should continue the remodeling process. If the answer is over 80 you should go easy with that horse. Remodeling will take a bit longer, but it's better than doing damage since that horse really isn't ready to go the distance yet.

20% rule is a threshold. The old US Cav used it, but more likely from the results of trial and error than from any scientific evidence. Today however, there is more known about the science behind it. Of course we have to be dealing with healthy horses and experienced riders when we take these things into account. Obviously a horse that has not been conditioned or is in a poor physical state would not have the same results. Horses worked with loads over 20% of their body weight undergo certain chemical changes in their bodies. The greater the percentage the greater the effect and the longer recover time before the chemical levels return to normal. 20% and under showed no appreciable change while being worked. So for a change the Army had it right :lol: even if they didn't know exactly why.

This use to not be so much of an issue long ago.
in the late 1800's, when horses were still the primary means of transportation (ridden or being driven), most horse breeds were quite robust. Breeds were created or maintained to be strong, durable, working animals. Not the thin boned, delicate specimens many are bred as today (in order to satisfy the show and flat track racing industries) which are mere shadows of what their forbearers were. Because they were still bred to be working animals you didn't have to be as concerned about horses being able to hold up. Most of them were closer to the right working size when you started so you didn't need to spend as much time trying to get them ready. We should also not overlook that fact that people are larger today. In the last half of the 1800's and start of the 1900's (horse cav went into decline after WWI) the US Cav preferred troopers with a weight in the 140's (or less). Men (and women) were on average smaller back then (for that matter we weren't all any heavier in the 1980's...at 27, 5'9", I weight 147 lbs....that was 13 lbs ago :lol. Of course there have been breeding programs which have brought back much of what was lost. Most of the "warmbloods" and some of the "sporthorse" breeds are producing a heavier boned, stronger and more robust horse like the ones that were once so common over 100 years ago.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"Rider weight independent of the animal BW had no effect on completion rate, or on overall placing. Among disqualified horses, rider weight had no effect on miles completed prior to elimination. This is in contrast to traditionally held beliefs, but agrees with previously published data collected at this same event (Garlinghouse and Burrill). Although work by Pagan and Hintz (1986) demonstrated that energy requirements increase with weight load, the relatively low intensity of sustained exercise during endurance competition may mitigate the substrate depletion and lactate accumulation observed in high intensity exercise. The results of this study would suggest that horses in good condition are capable of carrying relatively heavy loads, whether as rider weight or in their own body weight, over a 160-km course without the deleterious physiological effects seen in maximal exercise." - 1998 Tevis Cup Study​I don't do either endurance or distance riding. I'm told my new horse was regularly ridden 20-30 miles, though. His previous owner/rider probably weighs 200 barefoot, and the horse is probably 850 tops.

From the same study:
"Body weight of the horse had an effect in that as body weight increased, failure due to lameness increased. Mean cannon bone circumference measurements of 19.25±.71 cm were similar to values of 18.83±.66 cm reported in Garlinghouse and Burrill. Circumference did not increase proportionately as body mass increased. These results suggest that increased body weight without a proportionate increase in the cross sectional area of the metacarpus increase the incidence of exercise-induced trauma and biomechanical failure."​


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

bsms said:


> "Rider weight independent of the animal BW had no effect on completion rate, or on overall placing. Among disqualified horses, rider weight had no effect on miles completed prior to elimination. This is in contrast to traditionally held beliefs, but agrees with previously published data collected at this same event (Garlinghouse and Burrill). Although work by Pagan and Hintz (1986) demonstrated that energy requirements increase with weight load, the relatively low intensity of sustained exercise during endurance competition may mitigate the substrate depletion and lactate accumulation observed in high intensity exercise. The results of this study would suggest that horses in good condition are capable of carrying relatively heavy loads, whether as rider weight or in their own body weight, over a 160-km course without the deleterious physiological effects seen in maximal exercise." - 1998 Tevis Cup Study​I don't do either endurance or distance riding. I'm told my new horse was regularly ridden 20-30 miles, though. His previous owner/rider probably weighs 200 barefoot, and the horse is probably 850 tops.
> 
> From the same study:
> "Body weight of the horse had an effect in that as body weight increased, failure due to lameness increased. Mean cannon bone circumference measurements of 19.25±.71 cm were similar to values of 18.83±.66 cm reported in Garlinghouse and Burrill. Circumference did not increase proportionately as body mass increased. These results suggest that increased body weight without a proportionate increase in the cross sectional area of the metacarpus increase the incidence of exercise-induced trauma and biomechanical failure."​


Normally it's some of my endurance friends who've had issues with my facts (and come up with lots of arguments against them), but the facts remain . Some early doctors might not have liked science showing that using sterile instruments in a sterile environment cuts down on post operative infections, but it didn't change the facts. 

OSU ATI did a study in 2007. While not as extensive as most would have liked it to be (including those conducting the test), was still quite revealing on this. While I no longer have the copy of the actual test (non book publications never manage to last long with me) the results of the test are easy to find. 

Without getting too bogged down in all the minutia (healthy horse, experienced rider, misc test details...most of which I'd still need the actual test data for.... etc, etc, etc,). But do bear in mind that these horses are not REALLY being worked overly hard when you consider they're getting rested 14 days between test (I realize that they wanted to insure no other influences on the test, but I'd love to see it done with 5 days riding and just 2 days off which is more like long distance riding...imagine what the result would have been when considering what they were with one day on and 14 days off). This test was more like the average rider today :

"The horses were weighed once a week. Cannon bone circumference, loin width, and withers height were measured for each horse. Muscle soreness and tightness was measured 24 hours before and 24 hours after exercise. The same professional animal massage therapist did all muscle evaluations, using a scale from 0 (no pain detected) to 2.5 (severe pain elicited). Scores were given for 20 locations on each side of the horse. The score for a particular horse could thus range from 0 (no pain detected at any point) to 100 (severe pain detected at all 40 test sites).

Four treatments were used, with horses carrying 15, 20, 25, or 30% of their weight. Each horse worked one day and then was rested for 14 days. Work periods consisted of carrying tack (saddle with space for additional lead weights) and a rider at a walk, trot, and canter for a set distance in an indoor arena. Riders were experienced and skilled at staying balanced, picking up the correct diagonal when rising to the trot, and helping the horse stay on the correct lead at a canter. A wireless heart rate monitor was used to collect pulse data. Blood samples were collected before, immediately after, and 10 minutes after exercise and were analyzed for plasma lactate concentration and serum creatine kinase activity. Blood samples were also taken 24 and 48 hours after work for creatine kinase analysis. Work rates during the trot and canter phases were determined, and the relationship between oxygen uptake and work rate was recorded.

Linear regression and correlation analyses were performed to find relationships between the variables of cannon bone circumference, withers height, loin width, and scores for muscle soreness/tightness.

*What results were found?*
There were no changes in body weight throughout the study. Changes in heart rate, respiration rate, and rectal temperature indicated a greater work rate when the horses carried 25 and 30% of their body weight compared to when they carried 15 and 20%.

Plasma lactate concentrations immediately after and ten minutes after exercise were lower when horses carried 15, 20, and 25% of their body weight compared with carrying 30%. Levels of creatine kinase measured immediately after exercise and also 24 and 48 hours following exercise showed the same pattern. Mean percentage of change in muscle soreness measured 24 hours before and 24 hours after exercise was greater in horses carrying 25 and 30% of their body weight than when they carried less weight.

Loin width demonstrated a relationship to percentage of muscle soreness at 20, 25, and 30% of body weight. Indexing loin width and cannon bone circumference together, this trend was continued, with increased muscle soreness resulting when horses carried 25 and 30% of their body weights.

*What does this tell us about weight-carrying ability and matching horses to riders?*
This study was designed to test the weight-carrying ability of light-breed horses performing 45 minutes of light to moderate exercise, simulating a riding lesson for a student at an intermediate skill level. In this study, weight loads of 25 and 30% of the horse's body weight were shown to influence work rate, heart rate, and lactate concentrations. No differences were found in heart rate, plasma lactate concentration, respiration rate, rectal temperature, and work rate for horses carrying weights of 15 and 20% of body weight. Serum creatine kinase activity, commonly used as a measure of muscle damage in exercising horses, was not changed when the horses carried 15 and 20% of their body weight. Post-exercise creatine kinase activity was greater in horses carrying 30% of body weight, and levels remained elevated 24 and 48 hours after exercise.

Considering loin width, horses with wider loins experienced less muscle soreness than horses with narrower loins after exercise when carrying a heavier load. Results of this study suggest that, for lighter riding horses, a total weight (rider, saddle, other equipment) not in excess of 20% of the horse's body weight is quite acceptable and does not stress the horse. The authors indicate more studies considering total loin area and muscle depth as well as hoof size could be helpful in determining weight-carrying capacity of light riding horses.

While the authors do not specifically state that an experienced, balanced rider is easier for the horse to carry, it can be inferred that an inexperienced rider may be more difficult for the horse to carry comfortably due to shifts in balance, confusion in applying the aids for various gaits, and decreased ability to follow the horse's motions efficiently.

The study, “Evaluation of indicators of weight-carrying ability of light riding horses,” was conducted by DM Powell, K Bennett-Wimbush, A Peeples, M Duthie of the Ohio State University Agricultural Technical Institute, Wooster, Ohio."


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

It should be remembered that Endurance horses, like marathon runners, have their bodies pushed beyond what nature intended. They have recovery time afterwards to let the body rest and heal, because we know the body has done more than it was designed to do. While training and conditioning makes both better able to deal with the effects, the effects still take place. i.e. the marathon runner still hits "the wall" miles before finishing (and some don't finish because of it), but still manages to finish, because they've trained and conditioned themselves to overcome the issues their body has with it (they deal with the pain). Same with the horse that has been conditioned to run the long distance. Of course we're nicer to the horse  since they have forced Vet checks to verify their physical condition and it gives them a short break (something we don't do for marathon runners).

Conclusion: we care more about the endurance equine athletes more than we do our human athletes :lol:


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Have to love the internet.
If anyone REALLY wants to read everything in the test study (no it's not online) you can purchase a copy of it's publication in the Journal of Equine Veterinary Science, Vol 28, Issue 1, Jan 2008
Here's the link:

Evaluation of Indicators of Weight-Carrying Ability of Light Riding Horses


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## Janet Cherry (Jul 13, 2009)

Thanks very much, what an interesting response. We have grown heavier; our horses are lighter; but they do less work.........but to get back to the calculation of weight, so this means (I am working in metric here) if my horse weighs 450 kg, and I weigh 60 kg, my saddle and other gear carried should not exceed 30 kg? Sounds reasonable....I am definitely going to do the cannon bone calculation. Still not sure about the loins issue though! Any pictures you could post to illustrate this point?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I've known about that study for years. It is worthless.

First, it doesn't find 20% is the limit, but 25%. The bloodwork found an increase in stress indicators at 30%, not 25%. It was evaluations by people feeling their backs that indicated elevated stress at 25%. I trust blood work more than humans who may have an agenda.

Second, it used out of shape horses. Deliberately out of shape. I'm a life long jogger. If you put me on bed rest for 4 months, then only allowed me to jog once every 2 weeks, how far would I be able to jog before someone massaging my back would conclude I was feeling the effect of my jogging? A mile? A half mile? A quarter mile?

Regardless of the distance, what meaning would that have for how far I can jog after improving my physical condition?

If you want to know how far the average human can jog, would you take the average American Couch Potato, ask them to jog, and then get your answer from how far it took to make them sore? I think not.

The study was poorly designed, to the point of being meaningless.

I also lift weights. Right now, my back is a little tense from the weightlifting I did last night. Does that make it wrong for me to lift weights? If I didn't lift anything for 4 months, and then only lifted weights once every two weeks, what would that teach me other than an out of shape person lifts less than an in shape person.

When the Cavalry did endurance testing, it used a load of 245 lbs. When the Arabians did too well carrying 245 lbs, the Army lowered it to 225. The horses were traveling 60 miles/day for 5 days straight - and on average, the lighter Arabians handled it better. BTW - my Crabbet-bred Arabian mare was 15.3 & weighed 900 lbs. 245 lbs would have been 27% of her weight. Food for thought:"The second Cavalry Endurance Ride was held in 1920. The U.S. Remount Service, representing the Army, became much more involved in the ride this year. The Army wanted to increase the weight carried to 245 pounds and the Arabian owners agreed. The horses traveled sixty miles a day for five days with a minimum time of nine hours each day. The highest average points of any breed entered went to Arabians, although a grade Thoroughbred entered by the Army won first.

According to Albert Harris (Arabian Horse Registry Director 1924-1949), the (Thoroughbred) Jockey Club gave the Army $50,000 in 1921 to purchase the best Thoroughbreds they could find for that year's endurance ride. Mr. Harris wrote: "With two endurance rides to the credit of Arabian horses in 1919 and 1920, the U.S. Remount, and incidentally the Jockey Club, felt something had to be done to beat these little horses in the next ride..." The Army selected all Thoroughbreds or grade Thoroughbreds which were all ridden by Cavalry majors. The Army also wanted to lower the weight carried to 200 pounds, but the Arabian people, having proved their horses at 245 pounds, objected. A compromise was reached at 225.

In spite of the Army's efforts, the first prize in the 1921 Cavalry Endurance Ride went to W.R. Brown's purebred Arabian gelding *CRABBET #309. Mr. Brown won the trophy once again in 1923 with his Anglo-Arab gelding GOUYA."

Welcome to Arabian Horses.org - Education​


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

bsms said:


> I've known about that study for years. It is worthless.
> 
> First, it doesn't find 20% is the limit, but 25%. The bloodwork found an increase in stress indicators at 30%, not 25%. It was evaluations by people feeling their backs that indicated elevated stress at 25%. I trust blood work more than humans who may have an agenda.
> 
> ...


You sound like most of my endurance friends :lol:. Don't like the facts so you come up with meaningless examples that don't apply.
I always love it when people who never actually ridden long distances come up with all this information. They've never dealt with the problems, but they know all the answers :lol:.

The test mignt be worthless to people who don't ride 400 miles a month for multiple months maybe. :lol:
Which is most of the riding community. 
The Army "race" was nothing more than an endurance race. The results are relatively meaningless since like all endurance races it's about a set goal and not a test of riding long distances and being fit for doing anything the next day no matter how far you traveled. They had to travel 300 miles in 5 days (actually, they could have done 100 miles in 1 day and taken a rest if the horse was up to it, but it might not have been fit in time to finish the rest of the race unless it was the last leg) and did not have to be fit for duty the next day. You see a lot of Arabians in the endurance races, but they don't dominate the long distance riding. They were used to create the TB because they had good speed, but other horses were faster. The Arabian had excellent endurance so it was bred to faster animals in the attempt (successful by most accounts) in producing a horse with even better speed than the Arabian and better endurance that the faster breeds with less endurance. This of course was back in the time when horse races were several miles long and in some cases a horse might run in more than one a day. But I digress.

20% (or less) was the point at which there was the least, if any, measurable effect. Some effects didn't show up until 25%, but 20% or less passed for the most. You might like those results. I really don't care :lol:

NO one is going to make you believe it :lol:. Just like no one is going to make some owners (and farriers) believe that being unshod is best for the horse. People can always make arguments for their point. Doesn't make it correct, just makes it an argument for their point of view. Certainly doesn'talter the scientific facts. There are people don't believe that man went to the moon or that the Nazi death camps were real. And they make well thought out arguments to support those believes. There are people who (even today) don't believe in modern medicine. No one is going to stop you if you want to have some barber operate on you in his shop using unsterile items (if you can find one who's willing to do it) :lol::lol::lol:.

I just point out what the results of an actual test showed and my own real life practical experiences (as well as some older family members) have shown to be the real case. If I ride 300 miles my horses don't need an extended rest period to recover. They can get up and keep going another 500, 1,000 or whatever miles as long as I keep the weight down. If you disagree so much with the test outcome why don't you try it. Ride from your home to Canada, then PA and then back home with a 30% load on your horse every day. Try to average about 100 mile week. Never more than a two day break and always ride 4 or more days in row (or ride 3 days with a 1 day break). When (if) you finish let me know how it turned out for your horse. It's not a break neck speed so by your way of thinking (using endurance racing as your measurement) your horse should be able to easily carry over 30% of it's for 5,000 miles of virtually daily riding (average about 20 miles a day) with no problem. You will certainly have a truly exceptional horse.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Janet Cherry said:


> Thanks very much, what an interesting response. We have grown heavier; our horses are lighter; but they do less work.........but to get back to the calculation of weight, so this means (I am working in metric here) if my horse weighs 450 kg, and I weigh 60 kg, my saddle and other gear carried should not exceed 30 kg? Sounds reasonable....I am definitely going to do the cannon bone calculation. Still not sure about the loins issue though! Any pictures you could post to illustrate this point?


Yes, certainly over 90% of the horses being ridded today do much less work than they would have had to do 100+ years ago :lol:. Then there is the less than 10% who still are used for doing a respectable level of work. Lastly there is the under 2% who are called upon to do a significant days work for many days, weeks and months. That's why most of what I put out here doesn't really apply to probably over 99% of all the riders. How many people (as a percentage) ride 30 miles round trip to town, 6 miles one way to fish as a public landing, 18 miles round trip to visit an Uncle, etc, etc. Those use to be common, but today there are very few of us left who really work our animals. It's not a bad thing. It's just the way of the world and I would be the last person to say we should not make full use of our advances in science and technology which give us a better life (Even if I do still do a great many things the way they were done in a by-gone era :lol. I get to meet people I probably would have never met otherwise. It's amazing the people who'll come out in their yard to catch you before you get away so they can talk and meet your horse (I have no illusions.... it's all about the horse :lol. People have pulled off the road and even stopped in the road (which I advise them not to do). 

To be honest I've never been good at looking a most pictures of horses to determine if they have good loin width. Some people may be able to pick them out every time, but pictures never seem to give me a good perception of the loin. It's one of those things I need to look at in person. I could post a picture of a stallion that I know has lovely loins (I've seen him), but won't really show you what good loins look like vs loins that need to be built up some so it wouldn't do much for showing what to look for. When you look at horse look at the point where the last rib comes off the back and back to the point that would be the end of the lumbar portion of the horse's back. That's the loin and you want it to be wide and well developed muscularly. It's not a huge concern if it's not, because it can be built up. Just like the cannon bones can be remodeled. Short backed horses are sometimes preferred, because they tend to have wider loins (smaller area with a short backed horse) and since the loin area is not as large it takes less time and work to get them built up. Of course there is also the other advantage. If you look at the structure of a horse it becomes clear that nature did not design it to be ridden (works much better pulling) :lol:. With the short back it's front and rear "supports" (it's legs) are a bit closer together which provides more support for the back. But as I said earlier, a long back does not mean a horse cannot be successful at riding long distances. I was just pointing out the optimums. An optimum is just that. A best case. It's not something must be met in order to succeed. It's like the feet, which I advice people to work on getting very hard. Many complain that in the local terrain here it's difficult to do (mostly sandy soil), but it's not impossible. I had a professional trimmer come out to inspect my mares (I like to do that every year to have their feet inspected in case I've missed something...I do my own trimming, but I'm not licensed) and she was pleasantly surprised at the hardness of everything and said they'd reached the "rock crushing" state. That is the optimum, but a horse with a softer hoof can still be successful at long distances and could well have rock crusher long before the ride was over .

Oh, and don't forget a great fitting saddle. For the vast majority a so-so fit or I've even seen a poor fitting saddle work well enough and not become a problem. But if you're going to ride the distance you want a saddle that fits the horses back as close to a glove as you can get. And sadly it's only going to be good for a few years. I've had my 7 year old fitted again and ordered her second saddle and the first one is only 3 years old. Their back will change and the old saddle will no long fit like it should. If you're done with a lot of major riding then it won't be as bit a deal, but if they spend a lot of time under that saddle it will matter to them.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

its lbs not miles said:


> You sound like most of my endurance friends :lol:. Don't like the facts so you come up with meaningless examples that don't apply.
> I always love it when people who never actually ridden long distances come up with all this information. They've never dealt with the problems, but they know all the answers :lol:.
> 
> ...I just point out what the results of an actual test showed and my own real life practical experiences (as well as some older family members) have shown to be the real case.


1 - I pointed out serious flaws in the test design. I did operational test for the US Air Force before retiring. If you don't set up the test to be realistic, it means nothing. And that study was worthless because it was very poorly designed.

2 - I also cited a study done at the Tevis Cup. That qualifies. I gather you don't like THEIR results, but their study made much better sense than the one you quoted. It also had dramatically different results.

3 - Nope. Don't ride long distances. Doesn't change the fact that the study you cited as your sole authority sucks. Beyond that, you cited no data from your own experience.

4 - I do know some ranchers who put way over 100 miles/week on a horse regularly. They do NOT use any 20% rule. Nor did the Cavalry.

5 - Trooper is our gelding who was used on a ranch, working well over 100 miles/week. He weighs 835. Less when he was on the ranch. His riders weighed close to 200 in their bare feet. Add in a roping saddle, and do your own math.

You are entitled to your opinions. You don't get to make up your own facts. You can use a 10% rule if you wish, but there is no data that indicates it would be any more meaningful than a meaningless 20% rule promulgated by a bogus study that ignores the experience of both the Cavalry and lots of ranchers.


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

I guess I don't understand the conflict between the two studies (the weigh %age one and Tevis) at all because they're asking two different questions. What it says to me is that at 20% and under, even a non-conditioned horse can be expected to work and handle himself well, but at greater carrying weights, it put strain on them that they may or may not be able to adapt to with conditioning. The Tevis study shows that in those conditioned horses, greater percentage carrying weights do NOT correspond to inability to finish and be judged fit to continue that day. Undoubtedly some of them may be sore the next day, just as the unconditioned horses were.

My take home is that if you can carry less weight, it is easier on the horse, but if you can't, you'd best at least make sure they're fit to make up for it.

Back to the OP's question, I wish I had known:
1. Water. For your horse and for you. Most endurance riders make sure their mounts drink and forget themselves. I've seen several humans that were 'not fit to continue' because of heat and dehydration even when their horses were fine.
2. Food/snacks. Second verse, same as the first. You also need to eat.
3. Basic 4H horse stuff. Your life and the lives of any/all who ride with you and your horse will be vastly improved if your horse is a general good citizen. The actual 'endurance' part is very small. Everything else is just basic good training.

Bucking, rearing, spooking, bolting, kicking, being ****y towards horses, not standing to mount, not loading, not being able to ride anywhere in a group, or stand or wait or whoa, etc, can and will make everyone's life tougher. If your horse is acting up, it can influence other horses and result in them spooking too, and even if you can stick it, it doesn't mean the other riders can.

Fortunately, all of #3 is something you CAN be working on your guy with now since they don't require backing.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Incitatus32 said:


> I do have another question, my prospect (my coming two year old who won't be broke for another two years or so) I share with my mother. Understandably the want to do even low level endurance and other like classes is mine; but she prefers to show him in breed events (so he's just a regular all around show/trail mount for our family prospect). Would this be feasible doing alongside very low level endurance? (just sporadically, not every weekend or week is going to be showing then endurance or back to back. It would mostly just be a few shows here and there then an endurance ride.)
> 
> I know ultimately a lot of that depends on him as an individual but I was wondering if anyone had any experience going from showing to endurance or using showing to help build up endurance.


I did both with my mare, plus gymkhanas with things like barrel races, slalom, etc. We just did whatever was going in the district, except jumping (14.2hh Arabian mare, tall rider, not the best option). My mare excelled at endurance, and when she was super fit, her abdomen was more tucked up than what show judges like to see, but I did a lot of ridden classes where it didn't matter as much as in halter classes. (Though she was awarded a blue ribbon once in a mixed-breed halter class "despite" the tucked-up abdomen, the judge said when she was tying it on.) And obviously nobody is interested in that at gymkhanas.

I've always loved dressage and basically mostly split my time between that and trails. Everything else worked on that foundation. I found that the dressage training helped with general conditioning, as sustained collected work is quite demanding. She was great at flying changes and it helped on the trail. Everything you do with your horse seems to be beneficial to everything else, at least in my experience. (My father also had a super harness racing stallion whom I trail rode for part of his fitness work, and I actually won an endurance ride with him just over a week after he had won a metropolitan race at Gloucester Park. Yes, yes, slow-twitch vs fast-twitch, but an all-round fit horse is just an all-round fit horse.)

While dressage and endurance are an uncommon combination, there are a few people on HF who also do both, and enjoy both.

I hope this encourages you - all the very best with your plans and dreams!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Oh, and about your other question: A saddle that's super-comfortable for you, but most especially for the horse, is so essential, especially for riding long hours. Since I've had a professionally fitted super-comfortable Ascot Romana AP, I have become convinced that the Bates Caprilli AP I had for my late mare for most of her performance life was not nearly as good as I thought as regards her comfort, and not half as comfortable as what I wished she would have had. Saddle technologies have changed a lot, obviously, but I still feel like she only had a mediocre "backpack" for hauling me about in...

I really started to appreciate technological improvements to that sort of gear when I changed my own hiking backpack from the one that had been in the family for over a generation and was once considered excellent, to an actual modern one that has a belt around the hips and re-distributes most of the load there instead of the shoulders, plus it keeps the pack slightly away from your back to allow air to circulate. What an incredible difference - how much more comfortable, and how much lighter a load seems with such a thing (we do a lot of walking).

My new saddle is like that compared to the one I had for most of my riding life before that. The way the weight is distributed over so much more surface area, the way the shoulders are cut back under the main flap to allow the horse freer movement and yet support the rider securely, the way the whole thing flexes, and how light the saddle is, are all so much better... and my horse was literally purring when I first started riding him in it...

So I guess that's my biggest "what I wish I could have done differently"...


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

bsms said:


> 1 - I pointed out serious flaws in the test design. I did operational test for the US Air Force before retiring. If you don't set up the test to be realistic, it means nothing. And that study was worthless because it was very poorly designed.
> 
> 2 - I also cited a study done at the Tevis Cup. That qualifies. I gather you don't like THEIR results, but their study made much better sense than the one you quoted. It also had dramatically different results.
> 
> ...


a. show me the biochemical results of the testing done at the Tevis cup. Dig hard now...:lol:. (so it wasn't even less of a study than the OSU test).
As I stated, the testing done by OSU was not as extensive as most would have like it did give results gained by a controlled, tested study (the Tevis cup is hardly that) and it measured what cannot be readily seen (ever seen actually) which is the chemical effects on the horses body (which will tell you more about what's actually happening with the horse then you'll get from temperature, heart beat, hand checked muscle soreness, etc, etc....which my bet is that's all you got at the Tevis Cup). ***nothing against the Tevis Cup racers or organization...it's a well run "marathon" for horses*** and should be seen as such. A race run by conditioned horses who, like their human marathon counterparts, have been trained and conditioned to deal with the pain and go beyond that point of physical endurance. Like a marathon, any participant who finishes is winner just because they were able to successfully push themselves beyond what the body is designed to do. 

b. (and this is the best one) If you don't ride the distances then you really have no idea of what you're talking about. That DOES change the fact of you knowing anything about it. You're listening to or reading about things and with no "real" experienced to go on so you are cherry picking what you want to believe is true even though by your own admission you have no way of really knowing :lol::lol:. Tell you what. I'll read about jet aircraft and I'll tell you what's real and what's BS based on what I feel is correct from what I've read :lol:. Whatever I say must be correct since I did read about it even if the tests you use and your real world experience says otherwise.
Like I said. Ride to Canada (and then just ride straight back home...it's still over 1,500 miles for you) and go ahead and use all the BS information you seem to believer. Load up your little 800+ horse with everything (and anything) you even think you might need. Us a 35lb Tucker saddle. Thick leather saddle bags. OR you can work to see if you can keep it to just 30-35% (doesn't matter). Then make the ride (4-6 miles riding, 2 days rest and repeat), average about 100 miles per week and let me know how far you get before your horse starts having problems. THEN you'll have some real experience and suddenly a light will go on in your head and you'll discover that while the test might not have been as inclusive as you would have like, it did explain why certain things happen when you start increasing the load. I HAVE carried too much and I HAVE seen what happens after a few hundred miles on a trained and conditioned horse that had made the trip with no problems before and did again later. As my father use to love to point out to me. "There's no substitute for experience".

c. I worked cattle in my teens and early 20's so I'm not unaware of what that involves. One thing it does NOT involve is a horse carrying a heavy load (unless you have a bunch of overweight riders on top of very small horses...in which case they should be horse whipped). When working cattle you want your horse carrying as little weight as possible since it needs to be able to move fast at any time and not be completely worn out before the day is done so lighter is always better. At 23, 5'9 I was 145 lbs at the induction center when I went on active duty. I was the runt of the litter as was my 900 lb grade QH that I worked cattle with. My 6'2" cousin (obviously no the runt of the litter) was almost 200 lbs on his 1,100 lb house. None of our horses carried even 25% of their weight. We were all pretty lean, even eating a ridiculously unhealthy and fattening diet (lot of starch and fried food). If you're really working you burn a lot of calories so you're not going to be heavy. Maybe your cow hands are heavy (work them harder or put them on a diet) or maybe they just use saddles weighted down with lead, but normally working cattle will not overload a horse (and most people who work cattle make sure they don't since a sore or worn out horse is of little use if your really having to work).

There is not "10% rule" that I'm aware of :lol:, but if I could get the total weight carried down to 10% I'd love it.

You don't have to like what experience has taught those of us who do ride like that. And you clearly missed my first post when I'd advised the OP not to mix apples with oranges. You keep throwing out endurance racing for your examples which has NOTHING to do with long distance riding. It's different experience completely. Training for one does not prepare the horse for the other. Different type of riding with different requirements. Endurance is a race with support teams, medical personnel on hand, camp sites, staged water and food, etc.... They run a hard race for 1-3 days and then they can go home and take the week off to rest and recover. Distance riding is NOTHING like that (except that there is a horse and their is a rider). My advice is to go out and do it if you think we're wrong. Prove that you can ride 750+ consecutive miles at a pace consistent with what most distance riders use on a horse carrying 30% or more. Then see what you think of your Tevis cup study. :lol: You find you've trying to get oranges out of an apple orchard.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

SueC said:


> Oh, and about your other question: A saddle that's super-comfortable for you, but most especially for the horse, is so essential, especially for riding long hours. Since I've had a professionally fitted super-comfortable Ascot Romana AP, I have become convinced that the Bates Caprilli AP I had for my late mare for most of her performance life was not nearly as good as I thought as regards her comfort, and not half as comfortable as what I wished she would have had. Saddle technologies have changed a lot, obviously, but I still feel like she only had a mediocre "backpack" for hauling me about in...
> 
> I really started to appreciate technological improvements to that sort of gear when I changed my own hiking backpack from the one that had been in the family for over a generation and was once considered excellent, to an actual modern one that has a belt around the hips and re-distributes most of the load there instead of the shoulders, plus it keeps the pack slightly away from your back to allow air to circulate. What an incredible difference - how much more comfortable, and how much lighter a load seems with such a thing (we do a lot of walking).
> 
> ...


That is actually and excellent comparison (Saddle and backpack) and one I've often used when explaining things to people around here. The air flow you experienced with that backpack is the same thing you'd really like to have with the saddle. Heat wears out a horse just like it does a hiker and good air flow under the seat of the saddle helps with that. Sadly so few saddles are designed with a good air flow in mind, but then again for over 90% of the riding that's done it's really not as crucial. The saddle tree is like a backpacks frame.

Never beat yourself up over what you could have done differently. It's all part of the experience we go through in learning. There is only 2 kinds of distance riders who don't have a list of mistakes they wish they'd done differently. 
1. The one who had another very experienced distance rider with them to help them train, condition, prepare and then went with them (I've yet to meet one, but I'm sure there must be one like that out there somewhere :lol.
2. The distance rider who isn't :lol:. Wants to do it, but has never actually made it out. If you never do it you can never mess up (so I guess the first one is the only REAL one) :lol:

I'm not sure I can even remember all the mistakes I've made before. I can remember the ones that effected the horse better than the ones that just effected me. Like the time I did not take something to make a shelter cover with.. :lol: and it poured down rain a few days out. Time when she really needed a new saddle, but I hadn't paid attention. Luckily she let me know on day 3. Which brings me to another important point that should be considered if a person wants to do distance riding. Forget riding boots. I've never had a pair that was fit for doing a forced march in. Find you a nice pair of something for you feet to walk in. You may very easily find yourself doing more walking than you'd anticipated. I use to wear father's old combat boots. Then I wore my own and now I'm on my 3rd pair (they don't last forever :lol. They have been great for riding and walking if the need arises. Not saying you should wear combat boots, but find something that is comfortable to take LONG walks in.

I love the modern stuff. It's made getting the weight down so much easier. Titanium mess kit is supper light. You can get tents under 5 lbs. I love the Beta material for my horse gear. Looks like leather and only care it needs is just wipe it off and it's clean and ready. Wish I could get a good saddle with it, but my saddle maker only uses leather and since he makes them to fit the horse (does his own tree modifications to fit their back) and me :lol: I'll stick with him and take the time to take care of the leather. The modern light weight gear has been a huge blessing to the distance rider. Tent vs ground cloth to make a shelter with, lighter mess gear, synthetic or aluminum stirrups, vinyl stirrup straps and cinch straps, etc., etc. It's amazing how we can strip away ounces and pounds now without cutting back on what we need.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

its lbs not miles said:


> Never beat yourself up over what you could have done differently. It's all part of the experience we go through in learning.


Indeed, but I'm not happy to be blasé either, and I've seen many people unfortunately who, when they hear the words "comfortable saddle" etc, only think of what is comfortable for _them_, and the concept of what is comfortable for the horse never seems to occur to them... (and they don't tend to make it far in endurance riding, but beleaguer many sorts of riding, especially just random riding...)

Also, I kind of feel more responsible for mistakes I make/made that affect others, than ones that just affect me. My bad, my consequence is fine: That was my choice. But my bad and the consequence/discomfort worn by another is not so fine when it wasn't their choice. A horse has little input on the saddle or rider it hauls about, it's the rider who makes those choices.

The lasting regret I have over the saddle issue with my mare is useful in that it makes me extra conscious of thinking through comfort issues for horses with whom I am currently working, and it sensitised me more to listening to horses' feedback.




> There is only 2 kinds of distance riders who don't have a list of mistakes they wish they'd done differently.
> 1. The one who had another very experienced distance rider with them to help them train, condition, prepare and then went with them (I've yet to meet one, but I'm sure there must be one like that out there somewhere :lol.
> 2. The distance rider who isn't :lol:. Wants to do it, but has never actually made it out. If you never do it you can never mess up (so I guess the first one is the only REAL one) :lol:


True.  I'm going to add a third category: The rider who believes that horse experience can also be effectively shared through the written ruminations of experienced horse people who share your own philosophy on treating fellow animals with respect. A lot of people who are geographically isolated have that as their mainstay, but I reckon it's good for any rider or animal handler. It certainly was how I avoided many mistakes and how I learnt to educate my own horses, and then how to teach others, once we moved into a remote Australian farming community after getting a good start on riding in Germany!




> Forget riding boots. I've never had a pair that was fit for doing a forced march in. Find you a nice pair of something for you feet to walk in. You may very easily find yourself doing more walking than you'd anticipated. I use to wear father's old combat boots. Then I wore my own and now I'm on my 3rd pair (they don't last forever :lol. They have been great for riding and walking if the need arises. Not saying you should wear combat boots, but find something that is comfortable to take LONG walks in.


You know, I have to agree. We used to wear long boots riding in Germany when I was a child (they keep you warm and they're good for walking your horse through a bog), and quickly discarded these for the shorter leather slip-in ankle boots commonly used in Australia, owing to the hotter climate and practicality. They are also pretty good for walking in - well, the ones with the foot beds are, anyway. And, they don't have a safety problem with getting potentially caught in a stirrup and dragged in a fall.

Walking in endurance riding: I used to walk beside my mare standard whenever she was having a walking break in an endurance ride, since there was no point staying on her back - it didn't improve the ride time. In fact, it was a good way to support her recovery in such breaks and take weight off her back and get circulation through my own legs, and to have a chat to her from the ground as we walked along. We'd both be refreshed and raring to go again in five minutes. It's good teamwork when the rider walks, even jogs during slower breaks (and makes for a fitter rider ).




> ...my saddle maker only uses leather and since he makes them to fit the horse (does his own tree modifications to fit their back) and me :lol: I'll stick with him and take the time to take care of the leather.


Yeah, I still prefer leather saddles too, and the individual adjustment to a particular horse's back done by a professional saddler I now think of as crucial. That part only cost me $200 when I got my current saddle. Eat lentils for a month if that's what you have to do to pay such a person, but do it...


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