# Law allowing horse slaughter in Oklahoma



## SlideStop

Your barking up the wrong tree. If the horse forum was in government slaughter houses would have been up and running yesterday. Just do a search on here and you'll find loads of people posting and outlawing horse slaughter and why the majority of the people here are for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tempest

Welcome to the forum.

I will point out first that the majority of the people on this forum see horse slaughter as a necessary evil and therefore are pro-slaughter. I don't think you're going to get much support here. The topic of horse slaughter has also been beaten to death (pardon the pun) on this forum. And horse slaughter was never banned in the US, there was no funding from the government but it was still legal. Some of the older forum members can tell you more.

I just thought I'd warn you ahead of time of how hot this topic is and that there is a big possibility that an argument may occur.


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## Cherie

Get your facts straight -- It is not waiting for the Governor to sign. If it was, she would have already signed it.

The two bills, HB 1999 (the bill passed by the house) and SB 375 (the bill passed by the Senate) are not identical. One Says Horse Meat will NOT be allowed to be sold in the State of Oklahoma (a provision added to placate the cattlemen and thus get their support). It is now in Conference Committee so that a single version will come out later in this session. That version will then be voted on by the full House and Senate and if passed, will go to the Governor. 

I have already contacted both my Senator and Representative and they voted for their versions and plan to vote for the final version. I Have already asked to be heard when it comes up for discussion. I wrote a letter that appeared in the State's largest newspaper and have commented on this measure on line. 

I only ask two questions of Charlietuna and other 'anti-slaughter' people: *

1) Why do you prefer that horses have to stand on a truck for 18 hours or more to be hauled to Mexico where there is no control over the actual slaughter process than to have processing plants here in the US?

2) What would you do with the 20,000 to 30,000 horses that are sent to Mexico every year from Oklahoma alone if slaughter was not an option?* 

What are you going to propose to do to compensate horse owners when they lose ALL value and property rights by not being able to sell an animal that is legally theirs? 

Being anti-slaughter is a knee-jerk reaction with more terrible 'unintended consequences' than any of these zealots have thought out. The HUGE problems of starvation and neglect are just a couple of these 'consequences' we are seeing now -- these are consequences of the 'loss of value' of all lower end and unwanted horses.

And yes, you probably came to the wrong place to campaign for the anti-slaughter position.

At the same time, I would urge ALL Oklahoma Horsemen and Horsewomen to contact their Reps and Senators to urge quick passage of this measure. Contact me, if you like and I will keep you informed of when rallies and discussions will be held where you can actively support this measure. The whole horse industry depends on horses having a salvage value and a decent 'set-in' price.


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## CLaPorte432

Great post Cherie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shoebox

We get posts like this frequently. If you'd like more explanation as to why most of us are pro slaughter (or at least see it as necessary) feel free to dig them up, I'm sure there's at least a dozen within the last month or two.


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## WickedNag

Welcome to the forum. Pro slaughter here....


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## Cherie

Since Skye McNeil's district includes Bristow, OK, I would assume you are making a connection to the auction there. I do believe they sell more horses in a year than the sale barn here in Sulphur, OK, although some sales here have more than 250 horses selling. 

An auction company only gets a commission on each sale. They have absolutely nothing to do with who sells what horses or who buys them. They provide a tremendous service in that they are always there and people that want a new horse (particularly 'project horses') and people that need to sell a horse can do that without driving all over the country or trying to sell one or give one away on a place like Craig's List. If people cannot afford to feed a horse, they do not have the money to euthanize one and bury it. And face it -- a dead horse is a dead horse. The horse surely does not care if it provides food to someone or is poisoned and wasted. Frankly, I would rather see that the horse's body is NOT WASTED.

Every horse is available to anyone that bids on it. The buyers determine the price or 'value' of that horse that day, not the auction company. Thank goodness the mostly 'despicable slaughter buyers' are there to get the horses that no one else wants. They are 'bottom feeders' and I have not met a single one I like, but thank goodness they are there. If they weren't there, half of the horses or more would not get a single bid and would be abandoned at the sale or out in the parking lot or left to die in some back pasture. 

The person or family that owns the sale barn should not be demonized for only providing a service. They did not create the atmosphere where horses are now starved and neglected. I appreciate her (Skye McNeil) for trying to correct the bad situation of unintended consequences that have worsened the lives of hundreds of thousands of horses across the US.

I am sure Skye McNeil has seen first hand that horses now going to sales are very thin. Many have a BS of 1 or 2. People hang on to them as long as they can, hoping it will rain or hoping their finances will improve or ???. When they finally decide the horse will die if they don't get rid of it, the horse is a mere skeleton. People attending these sales (as well as the owners and auctioneers) will all tell you how horse care dropped with the 'set-in' value when local processing plants were closed. It ain't rocket science. People take better care of a horse when they know it has a 'salvage value' of nearly a $1000.00 fat instead of $100.00 thin. Now the thin ones are lucky to bring $20.00 or even get a bid.

The fact that I have seen these unintedned consequences first hand at the auction 2 miles down the highway from me is why I am such a proponent of opening new horse processing plants here in OK and many other states. They are desperately needed. I think their presence (which will bring up horse values) will actually make the number of horses sent to slaughter greatly decrease. People will be much more likely to buy project horses and will protect the value of their other horses by keeping them in better condition.

This is all about supply and demand and the fact that it takes many years for supply to drop down to the level of the demand when a market crashes or the economy crashes. Horses live 25 to 30 years with decent care. Do you know what your situation will be or what the economy will be in 20 years? I don't think so. It is not a matter of breeding too many horses. Most of the horses now going to slaughter were bred and raised when the demand for horses was very high. Not a single one was bred FOR the slaughter market. These horse are as much victims of our economy, unforeseen high feed prices and the unintended consequences of them losing their salvage value. 

I personally invite anyone to come to Sulphur and I will attend the local sale with them and point out what is happening and who is bidding on what horses. Most people that think stopping slaughter will improve horses' live are very sadly mistaken. It only takes one trip to the local auction with someone knowledgeable to inform them otherwise. It is like water -- you can't stop it from going downhill. There always have been and always will be 'unwanted horses'. There are just a lot more of them right now.

PM me if you would like to see exactly what goes on at an auction. I would be happy to explain it all to anyone.


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## charlietuna

Thank you for welcoming me to the board. Quite a way to start, getting sideways with a Moderator.


Thank you Cherie for helping me 'get my facts straight'. When I read the bills, they had both been voted on and I did not see anything in them about the differences that had to be hammered out. Another fact I got wrong was the 1970's ban on horsemeat by the Federal Government was only against its use in pet food. Not human consumption.


You asked me some questions which I have to consider before asking my own:

*1) Why do you prefer that horses have to stand on a truck for 18 hours or more to be hauled to Mexico where there is no control over the actual slaughter process than to have processing plants here in the US? - *I don't want them to be transported for up to 24 hours without food, rest or water (which the law allows) to get them to Oklahoma in the same condition. And honestly, there isn't much control over the slaughter process here either. The plants have high fences for a reason.

*2) What would you do with the 20,000 to 30,000 horses that are sent to Mexico every year from Oklahoma alone if slaughter was not an option? - *That number seems a little high. About 1 in 10 in Oklahoma, but you work in the horse industry and know it better than I do, so ok. I understand about supply and demand. Also about the rising cost of feed and a slumping economy. Abuse and abandonment are still covered by existing laws. Many of the people who think they have no way out can find someone or an organization to help them if they try. My evidence is the number of people who offer to take in or find feed for abandoned horses when the story hits the news.


You actually asked me another question with the third being: *What are you going to propose to do to compensate horse owners when they lose ALL value and property rights by not being able to sell an animal that is legally theirs? *- I wouldn't propose anything. They took the risk of breeding horses or having horses longer than they are monetarily useful. I took the risk of having horses and paying for them to be put down or doing it myself if I couldn't get a vet to come out when they were too old to ride or got injured. I also got a great deal from a breeder who wanted to retire an older brood mare. He got her with foal and I bought her for more than she would have been worth for slaughter. He won and I won by getting two horses with pretty good value.


Which brings me to the part where I get to ask questions. I have some answers too:


*1. Where will this plant be built? *Maybe along I35 south of Oklahoma City would be a good place. Convenient for all of the horses from other states coming in. Expect a fight from whoever will be its neighbors.


*2. Who will work in the plant? *This work has usually been done by experienced people coming from a country just to the south of us whether they have work papers or not. They should fit right in with the local population in Oklahoma.


*3. Who will end up paying for all of the inspections and litigation the plant causes? *Me. USDA and State Health officials are going to be constantly called there to inspect it and State lawyers will be called on to sue them for environmental problems.


*5. Who will benefit from the meat? *Only European companies will make a tidy profit from the meat and spend next to nothing in Oklahoma except lawyer fees.


*6. Are the horses we send to slaughter free of the drugs, medication and other chemicals that we routinely use in our horses? *Probably not, which means they should not be slaughtered for human consumption. Horses raised specifically for slaughter cost more to raise than beef. I guess that's not our problem.


*7. Who is going to compensate me when my horse is stolen and the thief drives straight to the gates of the slaughterhouse with phony ownership papers to sell it? *No one. At least now, I may be able to catch the horse at an auction or find out where it went for it's 18 hour drive and stop it and hope it's not injured too badly. The slaughterhouse doesn't have time to back check the history of all of the horses it receives and won't care about brands, tattoos or chips if it has a bill of sale.


*Maybe I'm against it in Oklahoma because I don't want it here.* These plants have terrible safety and environmental records and have been closed in this country for many reasons besides the ones I asked about.


Thank you, Cherie, for your invitation to visit an auction. I have been to them. They are a great way for someone who needs or wants to get a horse at a bargain price. I am always disappointed when good stock ends up going for next to nothing and I know where they will end up. On the other hand, I can't buy all of the ones no one else wants and put them out to pasture.


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## CowboyBob

*5. Who will benefit from the meat? *Only European companies will make a tidy profit from the meat and spend next to nothing in Oklahoma except lawyer fees.

Maybe we should start eating them too?

These plants have terrible safety and environmental records and have been closed in this country for many reasons besides the ones I asked about.
These plants were close because a bunch of bleeding hearts think its mean, and have found some bad videos to support there case and got a lot of people that have nothing to do with the horse industry to agree with them. The lose of the meat prices on horses has caused a lot of problems in the horse industry. 

*2. Who will work in the plant? *This work has usually been done by experienced people coming from a country just to the south of us whether they have work papers or not. They should fit right in with the local population in Oklahoma.

This I think was out of line and uncalled for. The issue of illegal imagination is a much bigger problem then the slaughter industry. Not to mention the "slight" racist tone. 

*7. Who is going to compensate me when my horse is stolen and the thief drives straight to the gates of the slaughterhouse with phony ownership papers to sell it? *No one. At least now, I may be able to catch the horse at an auction or find out where it went for it's 18 hour drive and stop it and hope it's not injured too badly. The slaughterhouse doesn't have time to back check the history of all of the horses it receives and won't care about brands, tattoos or chips if it has a bill of sale. 

Really?? are you really going there. Was horse stealing really that big a problem before the slaughter ban? I don't know about OK but Montana is a brand state, its not that easy to steal and sell a horse is it. I Think you are just looking for "reason" to fight it. 
Just tell the truth you don't agree with the slaughter of horses. Its ok you are free to believe what ever you like. Coming up with all these other "reason" is just you trying to say no matter how or where it happens you do not agree. 

Good luck with your fight you have every right to try to stop it from happening in your state.


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## Gremmy

charlietuna said:


> *5. Who will benefit from the meat? *Only European companies will make a tidy profit from the meat and spend next to nothing in Oklahoma except lawyer fees.


Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm fairly certain that foreign-owned businesses operating in the U.S. still pay U.S. taxes?


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## NBEventer

Before I get into this... OP, are you actually involved in the horse industry to any extent beyond going "killing horses for slaughter is evil!"? 

I really get a strong sense that you are not actually in the industry.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

@Cherie - You said it all very well. I can't say anything better, so I'll just agree with you 100%. 

A quick observation about OK Auctions, i.e. Bristow & Triangle Sales which are my experiences here vs Limonite Auction in CA. 

When I lived in CA I was less than an hour from the Limonite Auction, aka Mike's Livestock Auction, and it was a rather horrible example of where you send a horse you can't afford to euthanize. In CA to euth and dispose of the carcass can cost upwards of $1000. I HATED going to that auction and wouldn't buy a horse there for any reason. 

When I came to OK, someone finally talked me into go to the Bristow Auction and I was shocked speechless. There were families with their kids there! It was a huge social occasion and lots of horses were bought and sold. Yes, the KBs were there but ...... I saw a lot more horses going home with just people than to the KBs. 

Then someone got me to go to the Triangle sale......that's a pretty cool auction and I got a great mare there, Honey Boo Boo, for what I consider an absolute STEAL of a price. These are more performance oriented folks and she is halter bred, so I didn't have a lot of competition when I bought her. I bought this exquisite mare for LESS than what the bottom line KB price used to be for a Fugly Mutt horse and I got her papers. 

Another shocker, the KB who lives down the street from me was there. And what was he doing at a performance horse auction? He was selling some of the good horses he'd bought at Bristow, that he'd taken home and had trained for a job, and he was turning them around for good money. WHAT? You sure never saw THAT in CA. 

But even the BEST horses at the Triangle Sale are bringing in less than they should be and horses that maybe aren't quite what the performance folks are looking for are bringing in next to NOTHING. I agree with Cherie, we need the bottom line auctions to set the price bar to give a bottom price to our horses. The only way that price bar gets raised is when there are much fewer unwanted horses than there are today. That is only accomplished when we can cull the less than desirable in an effective way, for instance slaughter. 

There are a lot of scare tactics being used about how undesirable some of the workers in the plants are, the OP referred to illegals, but I'm going to say that there are enough folks here who are hungry and below the poverty line to compete for those jobs now. The economy is such that most folks are not turning their noses up at a job that provides a paycheck for a legal endeavor. Then there's the contamination scare tactic, i.e. It's contaminated by BUTE!. We need to develop withdrawal times for these drugs that we use for horses, there currently aren't any and thus, the contamination scares. 

Hunger in OK and on a wider scale, the US, are pet peeves of mine. If lifting the ban on horse meat would feed even 1 family and keep the kids from being hungry when not in school, then I'm all for it.


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## Corporal

Pro slaughter, here, too. The last slaughterhouse in the US to be closed was 3 1/2 hours north of me, in Illinois. Bleeding hearts won't allow it be reestablished in MY state. GOOD for OK!!! You aren't that far from me.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

And I forgot, perhaps the most important issue, around non-slaughter of horses. I have horses, and have taken in horses to rehab and sell and have sold horses to others. Occasionally I'll get a horse that just "ain't right". If there's a ban on slaughter then there's no market for that horse because I won't resell it to a person as a riding horse if I feel it's a danger. That only leaves one place for it to go, the auction and likely, the KB will buy it because I won't be sending it through the "Ride" section of horses, it will be run through by the pound. 

When I've talked to people who are against sending any horse to slaughter, I've asked them, "Ok, where should they go? How many would you like to take to save them?" and the answer has always been, "Well, I can't actually TAKE a HORSE, I mean they're expensive!" So what then? Where should this horse go? I didn't make him crazy, I tried to work with him and he just proved to be too unreliable to be safe. So, should I take him to a local riding area and turn him loose to starve in the wild? Tie him to someone else's trailer? Drop him in someone else's pasture? I won't do that. 

So my challenge to anti-slaughter folks remains: What is the constructive solution to the ban on slaughter? How would you provide a way to keep all the unwanted horses safe and fed and vetted and current on their farrier work? There are many worse things than dead. Starving, sick or severely injured comes to mind.


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## jaydee

I would prefer that there were slaughter yards no more than 100 miles from every horse that needs to be travelling to one. 
They can process horses for slaughter for consumption or euthanise and cremate those that cant for whatever reason go for consumption
Its a service that every horse owning country should have and closing them down and sending horses on long trips to Mexico or Canada is cruelty. At least if they were easily accessible caring owners could take their horses by appointment or have them shot at home and taken away as they can in the UK and be sure they get treated correctly through the process
If horses are going to be seen as consumption animals in the wider sense there are going to have to be clinical trials done on all drugs currently used on horses to certify withdrawal times and residues that remain in deep tissue - though as far as I know there are no withdrawal times for Bute in cattle either - the law is that they cant be slaughtered for consumption if they've been given Bute as its classed as a prohibited drug so no tests have ever been done - I'm not sure that this will be changed for horses
Not sure if there is any update on the EU closing the door on all horses that dont have recorded drug useage data - in the wake of the horsemeat lasgane and burgers things are tightening up even more over there.


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## Cherie

> *1) Why do you prefer that horses have to stand on a truck for 18 hours or more to be hauled to Mexico where there is no control over the actual slaughter process than to have processing plants here in the US? - *I don't want them to be transported for up to 24 hours without food, rest or water (which the law allows) to get them to Oklahoma in the same condition. And honestly, there isn't much control over the slaughter process here either. The plants have high fences for a reason.


Actually, they have high fences to keep the animal rights terrorists from burning them down like they burned down the plant in Illinois and have burned down research laboratories, animals and all.

There can be as much control over American Processing Plants as is written into their permits to operate. American industries, as a whole, do not 'self regulate' very well. So, I would hope, like the modern, new hog and cattle processing facilities that have been built in the last 10 years, horse processing facilities would be planned and built around safely and humane horse treatment. Obviously, any industry started up from scratch can be built and run to any standard.




> *2) What would you do with the 20,000 to 30,000 horses that are  sent to Mexico every year from Oklahoma alone if slaughter was not an option? - * Abuse and abandonment are still covered by existing laws. Many of the people who think they have no way out can find someone or an organization to help them if they try. My evidence is the number of people who offer to take in or find feed for abandoned horses when the story hits the news.


What fantasy world do you live in? We have child abuse laws and statutes against all kinds of things that can't be enforced. If you don't think horse neglect and starvation have increased since the US plants closed, I invite you to go speak to any 'Country Vet' with a small town Country Practice. [Not the big Equine Centers that have specialized show and race horse practices.] The local Vet Clinic with a large / small animal practice said their horse practice dropped by 75% when the plants closed and the 'saddle horse' market crashed. This was 2 years before any drop in the economy. The Ada Vet Clinic saw such a drop in horse care that when our Vet retired from there, they did not replace him and dropped their horse practice all together. Most Country Vets I have talked to say they have seen a ten fold increase in neglected and starved horses. Any Sheriff's office will tell you that they have had a 5 - 10 X increase in horse neglect cases being turned in.



> *1. Where will this plant be built? *Maybe along I35 south of Oklahoma City would be a good place. Convenient for all of the horses from other states coming in. Expect a fight from whoever will be its neighbors.


 
I would expect any new plants to built in very rural areas like the hog plants built in the panhandle. I would not expect any of them to built in urban or suburban areas. Most processing plants in those areas have been closed. I agree -- they do not smell good, but then, a lot of manufacturing and refining facilities don't smell good and don't belong in urban areas. I drove past a paper mill one time and I though it was the awfulest smelling thing I ever smelled.



> *2. Who will work in the plant? *This work has usually been done by experienced people coming from a country just to the south of us whether they have work papers or not. They should fit right in with the local population in Oklahoma.


I, too, find this very offensive. If you do not like the people of Oklahoma why don't you take your elitist attitude and move to another state. If there are not enough 'Americans' to fill these jobs, I expect there will very soon be an immigration bill that includes a 'guest worker' provision to fill the jobs that you and those like you are too good for.



> *3. Who will end up paying for all of the inspections and litigation the plant causes? *Me. USDA and State Health officials are going to be constantly called there to inspect it and State lawyers will be called on to sue them for environmental problems.



I don't know how new plants will be set up. I do know that previously, plant owners offered to pay the USDA Inspection costs. Litigation costs will be paid for by the groups like the HSUS and Animal rights nuts on one side against the plant owners on the other. I do not see how that will affect you unless YOU join a lawsuit against them. 



> *5. Who will benefit from the meat? *Only European companies will make a tidy profit from the meat and spend next to nothing in Oklahoma except lawyer fees.


WHAT? Any processing plant built in OK will have a payroll paid to employees working and living in OK. It will provide Oklahoma jobs. Meat sold abroad can only help our horrible 'Balance of Trade Deficit' just like the beef and pork that is exported. It will GREATLY increase the value of all horses sold by Oklahoma horsemen by getting that 'floor price' back up where it belongs.



> *6. Are the horses we send to slaughter free of the drugs, medication and other chemicals that we routinely use in our horses? *Probably not, which means they should not be slaughtered for human consumption. Horses raised specifically for slaughter cost more to raise than beef. I guess that's not our problem.



Only a very small percentage of horses have any medication or chemical residues. Meat tested from the Belgian owned plant in Mexico have had fewer than 1% of meat show traces of anything and not one specimen has shown toxic levels of anything. There are Universities that are testing drugs like Butezolodin right now. So far, I have been told that the 'half life' of Bute in a horse (other than its liver) is less than 24 hours. That means that in 72 hours, less than 1/8 of a gram of Bute is spread out through more than 500# of meat. Someone would have to eat 3 horses (1500# of meat) in one day to get a measurable amount of Bute into their system. While dozens of people have died from 'Mad Cow' disease, not one person anywhere in Europe has ever been sickened (let alone died) from drug or chemical contaminated horse meat. There is a lot greater danger of getting antibiotic contaminated meat from eating beef. 



> *7. Who is going to compensate me when my horse is stolen and the thief drives straight to the gates of the slaughterhouse with phony ownership papers to sell it? *No one. At least now, I may be able to catch the horse at an auction or find out where it went for it's 18 hour drive and stop it and hope it's not injured too badly. The slaughterhouse doesn't have time to back check the history of all of the horses it receives and won't care about brands, tattoos or chips if it has a bill of sale.


 
All slaughter horses are purchased through authorized brokers just like cattle are. For more than 20 years no one has been able to pull a trailer up to any of the cattle or hog slaughter plant and sell a steer or a hog. These horses are micro-chipped at the sale barns before they are loaded onto a truck. Most slaughter horse buyers are also 'horse traders' and buy a lot of horses that they have ridden to see if they are sound, sane and marketable. Those horses are NOT micro-chipped. If they ride good, they will be sold for a profit. If they aren't sound or don't ride, they get micro-chipped and head to the feedlot or packing house. APHIS, animal Identification rules, will have to be followed for horses just like they are going to go into effect for cattle. No one is going to take your horse and haul it to a slaughter house. It may go to a sale barn, but if it is micro-chipped, it will be 'read' before another chip can be put in to designate it as 'slaughter bound'.



> *Maybe I'm against it in Oklahoma because I don't want it here.* These plants have terrible safety and environmental records and have been closed in this country for many reasons besides the ones I asked about.


'They' have terrible safety and environmental records? Excuse me, but 'they' are no longer in existence. Any new plants will be just that -- NEW. They can be set up a good as people make them be set up. The group currently looking for a place to put in a plant have American investors and are working on markets in Asia and South America. They have also found a big market waiting for 'cheval' as horse meet is called, in the US among the ethnic populations that are used to eating it in their native countries. It is healthier than beef or pork as far as protein content and cholesterol, etc. And again, not one person has ever died from eating it.

I am sure I am probably older than you, but I can remember seeing it in meat markets when I was a child. Any old laws I have found prohibiting its sale (like the 1947 law that shut down the Texas plants) were brought about by the cattle industry right after WWII to protect their market. After the war, the price of beef fell to less than half of what it was. Cattlemen did not want the competition from horse meat and got the State Legislature in Texas to ban its sale. It was that old law that led to the closing of the Texas plants.

Again, I invite you to attend the local sale with me. I think you are 'clueless' as to how the market place works and who actually bids on the horses. Obviously, you do not know how it works or you would not 'demonize' the sale barn owner from the Bristow sale.

I did not proof read this, so excuse all the mistakes. 
Cherie


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## Animallover707

Hey iv ate horse meat, i think it should be on the dinner plate instead of beef, its higher in protien and has next to zero fat. Im not for or against slaughter, i think more people should have horses or take in horses for meat, if not for them, for doggy chow. Im generally against eating meat prepared by factories though, to many hormones, which is why i raise my own cattle and chickens, i dont know if i could eat a horse after owning it but if i had to i deffinatly would. especially if the horse had isues, then id be happy to eat it.


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## AriatChick772

I remember the good days when you could get several hundred dollars for the craziest of horses. But just last week I sent a CRAZY dumb dangerous 20 year old Palomino to the KB. 16 hand high, decent condition, owner had been trying to give him away for 6 months. I got $80 for him at the KB, which is higher than 75% of the ones at the auction here that are actually decent horses.

I remember when $600 bought you a green broke grade horse. $600 now will buy you a well bred well broke horse AND it's tack!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha

I'm anti-slaughter & yes, I'm a bleeding heart. I also take care of my own & won't be made to feel guilty for not taking on someone else's outcast. 
I feel everyone should do what they think is best for their own peace of mind.
Slaughter numbers have stayed about the same whether they are killed here or there. Nothing about slaughter is convenient for the horse as their plight is just beginning anew when the owner drives off from the auction yard (or however they do it).
I would be haunted forever if I sent off a horse but hold no ill will to those that do. 

Slaughter will exist somewhere as long as there is a market & $ involved. 
I'll put my time & money into my own animals instead of fighting something I cannot change.


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## COWCHICK77

Just to add, horse sales are no different than any other livestock sale as far as you go to the one with the reputation for what you want to buy. Some sales are known for killer horses and others are known for saddle horses. You have to know your sales and go to the one that fits what you are looking for or selling.

Honestly I think the horse meat industry needs to be treated like the beef industry. Under law, horses are still considered livestock not house pets. If we are going to do it go all the way like what we do with beef- feed lots, drug withdrawl requirements, meat grading etc.

In my opinion, not using the meat is a lot like cutting down a tree and not using the wood.


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## smrobs

COWCHICK77 said:


> In my opinion, not using the meat is a lot like cutting down a tree and not using the wood.


 
Exactly. There are at least hundreds of thousands of people here in the US alone that are starving...or dang close to it.

Folks that can't afford meat for their children because beef is expensive as hell (and it's only going to get worse in the next couple of years). What would it be worth to them to have an alternative red meat available for a lower price?

If that wouldn't work (I know that many American's have an aversion to eating horse just because of the "fluffy majikal movie" beliefs), I know there are folks in other countries over in Africa that wouldn't turn the meat away.


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## COWCHICK77

Exactly! 
And the price of beef is going to go up like said, with hay shortages many are selling their replacement heifers off because they can't feed them up until breeding time and no one wants to buy them them feed them until breeding age. With the hay situation the horse market will get worse before it gets better.

(And don't even get me started on CA's brilliant dairy cow buy out....GAH!)


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

COWCHICK77 said:


> (And don't even get me started on CA's brilliant dairy cow buy out....GAH!)


WHAT? :?::shock:


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## Cherie

It is not unusual for our local sale to have 200 head go through a Monday night sale. It is common for this sale to have horses bring anything in between $20.00 to $3000.00. 

About half will go to the kill buyers, many without any other bids at all. They range from $20.00 to $400.00. The $400.00 ones are the obese old broodmares or geldings that weigh 1300# or more without any draft blood. Many sales do not have any going for more than $200.00. One sale last fall had 10 or 12 $400.00 mares go through that an embryo transfer center was getting rid of because they did not use them or they did not accept an embryo. These mares had been purchased at a sale the year before and were headed to slaughter then, so they got a reprieve and were very well fed for a while.

The kill buyers buy many horses for slightly more than auction slaughter price. They are penned separately. The main kill buyer here is a well-known 'trader', Bill Richardson. To give you an idea of the diversity of the horse trading business, we was the last owner of Smart Chick Olena and the rest of the horses out of Jim Babcock's bankruptcy proceeding. I have seen him buy 50 or 60 horses or more out of a sale and half of them are micro chipped and go straight to Mexico while the other half go to his ranch. If they do not pan out for what he bought them for, they go to Mexico with a later truckload. He is an 'order buyer' and oftentimes will buy horses to fit an order he has for them. 

Other traders buy 1 to 5 horses at every sale, paying little over slaughter price. These are usually horses ridden through the ring that rode decent but not great. They take them home, clean them up, try them out and evaluate them. If they are not totally spoiled go lame with riding, they will ride them a while and sell them for a profit. This used to be a lot better game than it is now. Many young horses (especially unregistered ones) NOW go to slaughter because the loss of value from a few years back make them too questionable of an investment to be a 'project horse'. 

One of the terrible 'unintended consequences' of closing US slaughter plants is that MANY MORE YOUNG AND HEALTHY horses now have no other bidders. 

Slaughter horses are bringing the same price now AT THE PROCESSING PLANT that they brought before the closure of our plants. Only difference is that now, about $500.00 or $600.00 of that price goes to the trucking of those horses to Mexico.

There is a huge horse feedlot at Morton Texas. It used to have as many as 20,000 horses there eating from feed-bunks kept full of alfalfa. Feed is too high now. I have been told that the only horses there now are waiting for trucking or are getting over snots or strangles so they can get clean health certificates to go to the plants. The animal rights nuts call them 'abandoned at the border' but they are just waiting for a different shipment. Obviously, buyers would not pay for them and then throw them away. What on earth do these nut cases think happened to the thousands of horses that they claim are abandoned? They just 'vanished'? That would be neat trick. I would guess that a few cannot cross that were severely injured in shipping. 

A lot of other misinformation is spread by the animal rights nuts and terrorists. One is that double decker trucks are still used. They are not and have not been used for several years. They all ship on 'floor trucks' (50 foot cattle trucks with a flat floor. Slaughter buyers also do not buy stallions because they also cannot be shipped with other horses. [One guy used to buy all of them here, cut them, fatten them up and resell them.]

The 'set-in' price would instantly go up to around $300.00 for healthy thin horses and up to $800.00 to $1000.00 for fat ones if plants reopened within hauling distance here. The reason there is NO market for them in the SE part of the US is because they cannot be shipped from there to Texas to Mexico. Shipping would be worth more than the horses without close markets.


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## jaydee

smrobs said:


> Exactly. There are at least hundreds of thousands of people here in the US alone that are starving...or dang close to it.
> 
> Folks that can't afford meat for their children because beef is expensive as hell (and it's only going to get worse in the next couple of years). What would it be worth to them to have an alternative red meat available for a lower price?
> 
> If that wouldn't work (I know that many American's have an aversion to eating horse just because of the "fluffy majikal movie" beliefs), I know there are folks in other countries over in Africa that wouldn't turn the meat away.


Since it isnt illegal to eat horse meat in the US why isnt more of the processed meat sold back into this country? Horses are selling for an all time low at market so I would have thought that this would have already been happening if the demand for cheap meat was there or does it just need advertising more efficiently?
The big problem with selling horsemeat into Africa at prices below that of chicken and goat is that it has to be slaughtered, processed/butchered and shipped there with import costs. The sort of poverty in those countries often doesnt allow for even a means of cooking in homes and certainly no refrigeration facilities which is why charities tend to go more for live chickens and goats that can be killed and prepared by the user on site and easily cooked over an open fire.
There is already a surplus of cheap unwanted horses and donkeys throughout adjoining European countries that have easier access into African countries.


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## Speed Racer

Jaydee, having a horse processed for personal use in the US isn't illegal, but the SALE of horse meat for human consumption is. Now that the funding for the USDA inspectors has been addressed, it's time the US started looking at repealing the sale for human consumption ban.


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## Cherie

The states that banned it for human consumption back in the 40s, 50s and 60s (like OK and TX did) in order to protect the cattle industry after WWII. Horse meat was sold everywhere in the US during the war because all of the beef was being taken to feed soldiers. My family ate nothing but horse meat during the war and right after. I remember seeing it when I shopped with my mother in the early 50s in Colorado.

After WWII, beef prices fell to 1/2 of what they were and cattlemen were going broke. They had the state legislatures pass laws against processing and/or eating horse meat to help cattle prices. The Texas law was passed in 1947 after being pushed through by the Texas and Southwestern Cattle Raisers Assoc. That is the old law that the AR nuts found that closed down the last TX plant in 2007.

Illinois passed a ban by initiative when all of the AR people got signatures from city people, which of course, knew nothing of the 'unintended consequences' that would make the plight of horses 10X worse.


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## COWCHICK77

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> WHAT? :?::shock:


 Sorry, I ended up going off on a tangent there...LOL

CA dairy buy-out short story, basically price fixing milk. Ca bought dairy cattle out from the dairy farmers, dairy farmers are no dummies, they would reopen the dairy under a different name, buy more cattle and Ca would buy them out again. I know guys that shipped new cattle into dairies then turned around and shipped them to the kill plant the next week. Dairies made a pile of money and the price of milk went up but they flooded the beef market causing a huge drop in beef prices. (The hamburger at McDonalds is most likely Holstein, not Angus unless certified) This was a few years ago, I have no problem with regulations from the government as far as holding standards for kill plants, meat grades, milk quality or whatever, but I do have issues with subsidies.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

COWCHICK77 said:


> Sorry, I ended up going off on a tangent there...LOL
> 
> CA dairy buy-out short story, basically price fixing milk. Ca bought dairy cattle out from the dairy farmers, dairy farmers are no dummies, they would reopen the dairy under a different name, buy more cattle and Ca would buy them out again. I know guys that shipped new cattle into dairies then turned around and shipped them to the kill plant the next week. Dairies made a pile of money and the price of milk went up but they flooded the beef market causing a huge drop in beef prices. (The hamburger at McDonalds is most likely Holstein, not Angus unless certified) This was a few years ago, I have no problem with regulations from the government as far as holding standards for kill plants, meat grades, milk quality or whatever, but I do have issues with subsidies.


Aaah, ok, gotcha! I guess that all happened after I left CA for OK or else when I was a kid. Don't remember hearing anything about it.


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## jaydee

*Speed & Cherie* Thanks for clarifying that. It seems wrong to me that a country can ban selling horsemeat for consumption like that - especially in a country where there are always going to be surplus horses and a section of the population who are either struggling with the affordability of meat and people who have no concerns about eating horsemeat.


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## Freemare

I know it sounds mean and bad. But think of it this way. The hay prices are so high people cant aford there horses. They cant sell them, so what do they do. Let them go into the desert. To die a slow and painful death. There are so many horses right now. I knew of many people that lost there homes and had to get rid of there horses because the price of everything was just to high. No one would by them. Great show horses, done everything. They had no money to pay for hay. They tried to give them to a rescue. No luck. Sadly the horses died. This is whats happens. There are just to many horses. Once unwanted breeding stops the horse market will get better.


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## grayshell38

Anyone got any info on this bill? 



> A new bill called The Safeguard American Food Exports (SAFE) Act in the US House will not only ban the slaughter of horses for human consumption in the United States but also prohibit the live export of horses for the same purpose.


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## Cherie

Update -- March 18 the House Bill went to the Senate Committee and they passed it 9-0. 

It now goes to the full Senate. The full Senate can pass it like it is or can add amendments to it. Once they have ironed out all differences between the House and Senate Versions, it will go up to a full vote. As it looks now, it will pass. Out-of-state animal rights activists have descended on Oklahoma by the hundreds if not thousands. Most of them are funded by the fraudulent HSUS. 

The Oklahoma Farm Bureau and every single Farm and ranch organization has gotten behind this.

They will NEVER be able to stop horses from leaving the US to go to Canada and Mexico because of NAFTA. The Mexican or Canadian Companies only have to send buyers to the US and they can say they are buying saddle horses and breeding stock and then can do what they want after they get them out of the country. NAFTA ensures that.

I will keep everyone updated.

Oklahoma residents -- You should write or call your State Representatives and Senators and let them know that Horses, horse owners and the whole industry needs to have a decent and humane way to turn unwanted horses into meat and money without making them travel thousands of miles. If this does not happen, the entire industry is on the brink of collapse.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Cherie said:


> Oklahoma residents -- You should write or call your State Representatives and Senators and let them know that Horses, horse owners and the whole industry needs to have a decent and humane way to turn unwanted horses into meat and money without making them travel thousands of miles. If this does not happen, the entire industry is on the brink of collapse.


Already done!


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## natisha

I find it odd that we don't have funding for White House tours & lots of other things sequestration money supposedly paid for but we have the money for inspectors at privately owned plants for a product we don't use.
I haven't seen anything that shows it will be humane.


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## Cherie

Here is the link to the research and he position of the AVMA (American Veterinary Medical Association). It goes into great detail and answers ALL of the questions and accusations made by Animal Rights organizations. Of course, they ignore all of them and just make accusations to the AVMA.

https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/F...bout-unwanted-horses-and-horse-slaughter.aspx

The entire paper is quite long, but I have copied the part that says the AVMA contacted Temple Grandin and it quoted word for word below. I have bolded the first two sentences of her reply to being asked if horse slaughter could be made humane. PLEASE, PLEASE read this entire paper in the link if you actually want to be objective. The animal rights nuts DO NOT want to be objective and they just dismiss everything that does not agree with their one and only firm position. The AVMA and the AAEP BOTH think that it can be made humane if managed correctly and is done here in the US.



> Q: I've heard that Temple Grandin, a world-renowned expert on slaughter and animal welfare, has said that it would be impossible to make horse slaughter humane. Is that true?
> A: We've heard conflicting statements that have been attributed to Dr. Grandin, so we went "straight to the horse's mouth," so to speak, and asked her. *Her reply was:
> *_*"It is possible to make horse slaughter humane. The problems I have seen on the various undercover videos are correctable. *The two most important design features are a non-slip floor in the stun box and solid sides to prevent the horse from looking out onto the slaughter floor. _
> Handling and stunning works best if two people are employed. One person drives the horse into the stun box and shuts the door and the other shoots it. This enables the horse to be shot before it has a chance to get upset.
> I am a big proponent of video auditing by a third party auditor over the internet. This prevents the problem of people acting good when they are being watched, and then engaging in rough handling when nobody is watching. Horse slaughter can be done humanely, but it will require the commitment of management to good animal welfare."


So now, no one can say that they have NEVER seen anything that says it can be done humanely and it has come straight from the AVMA and TEMPLE GRANDIN directly!!!


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## natisha

Cherie said:


> Here is the link to the research and he position of the AVMA (American Veterinary Medical Association). It goes into great detail and answers ALL of the questions and accusations made by Animal Rights organizations. Of course, they ignore all of them and just make accusations to the AVMA.
> 
> https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/F...bout-unwanted-horses-and-horse-slaughter.aspx
> 
> The entire paper is quite long, but I have copied the part that says the AVMA contacted Temple Grandin and it quoted word for word below. I have bolded the first two sentences of her reply to being asked if horse slaughter could be made humane. PLEASE, PLEASE read this entire paper in the link if you actually want to be objective. The animal rights nuts DO NOT want to be objective and they just dismiss everything that does not agree with their one and only firm position. The AVMA and the AAEP BOTH think that it can be made humane if managed correctly and is done here in the US.
> 
> So now, no one can say that they have NEVER seen anything that says it can be done humanely and it has come straight from the AVMA and TEMPLE GRANDIN directly!!!


_Can be_ & _will be_ are two different things.
Stun guns weren't made for horses.


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## katieandscooby

No, stun guns were jot made for horses. Bolt guns though were made for much thicker skulled cattle. And they use bolt guns in the kill floor in horse slaughters as well. 

I am all for this bill being passed. Being up in Canada you see enough skinny sick horses get shipped to slaughter plants. The trip.is a long enough one for them, let alone coming up from the US. And with customs they standthat much longer on a truck. Ever sat in a livestock trailer in the summer sun? Packed? Not cool at all. (Pardon the pun)

I would rather see the states have their own system for processing horses then have them going into mexico. There is little regulation there. 

Temple Grandin is an amazing woman. If she can fix it then bring her in for the design process. Humane problem fixed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha

katieandscooby said:


> No, stun guns were jot made for horses. Bolt guns though were made for much thicker skulled cattle. And they use bolt guns in the kill floor in horse slaughters as well.
> 
> I am all for this bill being passed. Being up in Canada you see enough skinny sick horses get shipped to slaughter plants. The trip.is a long enough one for them, let alone coming up from the US. And with customs they standthat much longer on a truck. Ever sat in a livestock trailer in the summer sun? Packed? Not cool at all. (Pardon the pun)
> 
> I would rather see the states have their own system for processing horses then have them going into mexico. There is little regulation there.
> 
> Temple Grandin is an amazing woman. If she can fix it then bring her in for the design process. Humane problem fixed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But is she designing something?
Pro Horse Slaughter "Summit" Not Happy with Dr. Grandin | Animal Law Coalition


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## Cherie

Oklahoma Gov. Mary Fallon said yesterday that she would sign the bill. Both versions have been reconciled and the entire Legislature _should_ vote on them this week. So, we will see. 

When I have time I will address the differences between Temple Grandin and 'United Horsemen', the group she had agreed to speak to before she changed her mind. 

It was almost 2 years later when she was contacted by the AVMA and flatly stated that the slaughter process could be made humane. 

It might be noted that they have processed horses for centuries in Iceland and raise them for that purpose as well as use the processing plants for other horses that are no longer useful or wanted. People that have visited these plants say that they are calm, quiet and very efficient in their methods. The horses are not stressed and just calmly walk through the whole process. They use the 'captive bolt' method that is approved by the AVMA and the AAEP. 'Stun guns' are not approved. Captive Bolts kill the horse outright and do not just stun it. It is the same as a bullet without the loose projectile. A bullet is far better in my experience than poison chemical euthanasia.


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## jaydee

I have taken my own horses and those belonging to other people to the Red Lion Slaughter Yard in Cheshire UK that was badly slated for abuse recently just before the whole horsemeat lasagna/burger thing exploded. They also came and shot horses on the yard where I worked where people wanted some cash for the carcass rather than giving it to the local hunt.
They always treated the horses with great respect and I never saw any signs of otherwise - yet things did go wrong as shown in the video footage someone took there but this only highlights the need for some sort of surveillance systems and not a ban on the yards themselves
I'm sure they will find a way to close the loophole on out of country slaughter yards buying here and transporting them to Canada or Mexico so I don't see that as a reliable option or alternative to having US yards up and running


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## onuilmar

Pro-slaughter here. 

The fact of the matter the is that the darn critters do NOT live forever. Aside from the question of whether young horses should be killed (would rather see that than starvation), what about old horses that have no time left?

Disposing of a horse carcass is not a trivial matter, either. In this day and age of greeness, horse slaughter is a way of also recycling the organic matter of the horse's body into other uses: meat, leather, horse hair, etc.

And I for one, don't understand why their meat can not be used for dog and cat food. Considering the cost of animal feed and that the Chinese will include poison in animal feed, why are we wasting this resource?

Ditto for human consumption. I just personally would rather not eat my friends or their relatives.


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## RunWalk

Dogs were much healthier back in the day when most dog food was mainly horse meat.


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## Cherie

The OK Senate passed the same bill that the House passed so now it goes to the governor. Everyone says she will sign it. We'll have to see what happens.

If you don't think a bunch of the animal Rights nuts are terrorists, the Republican House member that introduced the bill has been getting death threats and is now getting 24 hour State Police protection.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Cherie said:


> The OK Senate passed the same bill that the House passed so now it goes to the governor. Everyone says she will sign it. We'll have to see what happens.
> 
> If you don't think a bunch of the animal Rights nuts are terrorists, the Republican House member that introduced the bill has been getting death threats and is now getting 24 hour State Police protection.


Maybe we need to re-instate public hangings for those making the death threats. :twisted:


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## stevenson

1) I would not sell my horse for slaughter (knowingly) I do not take horses to auction. THe auction was for horses someone needed to 'dump' .
2) Man has caused the problem with horses, thus creating the need for slaughter. 
3) Federal description of horses are as livestock. They are Livestock. They are not pets. 
4) States do not have to allow slaughter. If they do , then there should not be sales tax on horse feed. 
5)drug companies will need to make horse products safer, so they dissipate in the muscle tissue as do meds for cattle and sheep. 
to stop slaughter.. STOP breeding. Stop poor training. Lower Feed prices , to do so means to have lower property tax, water rates,fuel cost, liability ins cost, etc etc..


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## Cherie

You are only partially correct.

Auctions are not just for people to 'dump' horses. But, if they own them, it is their right to sell them at an auction or anywhere else.

The local auction sells horses from $20.00 to more than $3000.00 every single sale. An estate of a man that raised reiners and cutters sold all of those horses through the last 'Monday night sale' and they brought from about $400.00 up to $4,000.00 or $5,000.00. Over 250 horses sold. About 100 of those horses brought no other bids accept from the slaughter buyer. The others brought up to $5000.00. 

So, your contention that they are just dumped is really very uninformed. They were all horses that the previous owner did not want for probably 50 different reasons. Buyers were there for all of them. Thankfully that included the hated 'killer buyers'. What do you think would happen to all of THOSE horses if no one was there to bid on them? 

Most of the trail horse prospects that I buy are from an auction. Most of the 'kid horse' prospects that I help parents buy are from an auction. I would rather buy at an auction than from an individual. I am not a 'trader' and I do not buy them to re-sell. Surprised? Why would I NOT want to drive a short distance to be able to pick from probably 30 possible prospects than drive all over the country to look at an individual horse that has probably been misrepresented and is priced several hundred dollars higher than I will have to pay at an auction?. Why would I NOT want to buy from a place where I can pick out a horse or two and I can set the price that I am willing to to pay?

Auctions set the value of almost all horses -- those sold at auction and those sold privately. Most cutting prospects and many broodmares and cutting performers are purchased through the auctions held at the NCHA Futurity and other NCHA events held in Fort Worth. Most TB yearlings as well as breeding stock are purchased through the TB sales in Lexington, KY and other places. The race prospect sales held each year in Okc, OK at Heritage Place are where many barrel racers as well as race horse owners buy their prospects. 

So when people make real uniformed remarks about auctions, I know that they know little about the horse business. These are the same people that are trying to shut down slaughter markets completely. Only thing is, they have no idea of what would or could happen when the lowest end of the horses sold if there was no one to bid on them at all. Where do you think they would all go?


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## Cherie

Well, Oklahoma Governor Fallon just signed the bill into law allowing horse processing in Oklahoma. Now, every state that has companies or individuals that want to open processing facilities must wait and see if the USDA will come through with trained inspectors like they are supposed to. Definitely not a done deal.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Cherie said:


> Well, Oklahoma Governor Fallon just signed the bill into law allowing horse processing in Oklahoma. Now, every state that has companies or individuals that want to open processing facilities must wait and see if the USDA will come through with trained inspectors like they are supposed to. Definitely not a done deal.


Definitely not done yet. Any word on SB 375? I'm actually rather surprised that HB 1999 raised all the ruckus and I haven't heard much about this 2nd bill, except that it exists and appears to have passed the senate and house....but where's it at now?


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## demonwolfmoon

I REALLY hope that they will allow horse processing. I was completely biting my nails about a ban...I even had to boot one of my FB friends who kept posting these completely ignorant, awful things about anti-slaughter, who then when faced with logical argument turned around and said "horses just aren't slaughtered for food *in my world*"...

I really want to message her, like so many others and say: "how about you stop posting passive aggressive crap all over FB and get up off your **** and DO SOMETHING About all these things you're complaining about?"

Every time I suggested she go rescue a horse "Oh, I donate money to the rescues. Unlike *YOU*, I can't afford to board a horse!" 

I even asked her where she thinks all the horses no one wants will go? She suggested they can live in the WILD like always.

GAH!!!!

Anyway, in this economy, god, there has to be an outlet....another poster said something along the lines of killing a horse and not using the meat is like cutting down a tree and not using the wood. I agree wholeheartedly.

It's too bad we can't implement an idea that my non-horsey husband had...he suggested that only people who actually HAVE horses should be able to have a say in the slaughterhouse matter. Otherwise....dammit shut your piehole!! (that part is mine)
_
(Please note, that wasn't the only reason I unfriended her, just the last straw in an ongoing chain of years and years of her political agendas, rants and prejudicial commentaries. Finally realized she wasn't even remotely interested in reality, or logic....)_


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## Cherie

Pat,
The Senate dropped their bill completely and voted on the House version without any changes. So, the house version, HB1099, is what has become law. They kept with the version that does not allow horse meat to be sold in OK. The Farm Bureau would only help if that was included. It was included to protect the beef industry. Cattlemen do not want any competition from cheaper red meat from horses. The only reason it passed and went through so quickly is because the Farm Bureau is very powerful but are going to protect their biggest group of members.

*IF *they can get inspectors, the plant at Goldsby (Muslim owned and will not process pork for anyone) will be the first processing site for horses. Now, they do mostly sheep and goats for the Muslim community here. 

They will 'retro-fit' their plant for horses -- probably not the best way to get one set up right. The New Mexico plant will be the first one in the US if they can get inspectors.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Cherie said:


> Pat,
> The Senate dropped their bill completely and voted on the House version without any changes. So, the house version, HB1099, is what has become law. They kept with the version that does not allow horse meat to be sold in OK. The Farm Bureau would only help if that was included. It was included to protect the beef industry. Cattlemen do not want any competition from cheaper red meat from horses. The only reason it passed and went through so quickly is because the Farm Bureau is very powerful but are going to protect their biggest group of members.
> 
> *IF *they can get inspectors, the plant at Goldsby (Muslim owned and will not process pork for anyone) will be the first processing site for horses. Now, they do mostly sheep and goats for the Muslim community here.
> 
> They will 'retro-fit' their plant for horses -- probably not the best way to get one set up right. The New Mexico plant will be the first one in the US if they can get inspectors.


OK, I hadn't heard that SB 375 had been dropped. The way it sounded when they were voting on HB 1999 was that someone asked McNeil about including lifting the ban on human consumption in her bill and she told them to go write their own bill if that's what they wanted, she wanted hers to stand as it was. So, someone then wrote SB 375, and it sounded like (AT THAT TIME) that it also passed and was headed to the gov's office. Seems silly to me to approve one without the other, if nothing else, as an alternative to beef which is getting way too expensive for many. I don't think the cattlemen would ever have to worry about serious competition from horse meat, there's just tooo much emotion/stigma attached. But.....it is what it is and I'm glad we at least have approved the processing if we can get an inspector. I have my doubts about that too, especially with sequestration going on.


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## horsecrazygirl

By process what exactly do they mean? sorry I am a little confused.


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## Cherie

"Process" or "harvest" are the kinder and gentler terms for slaughtering an animal. "Harvest" is now the term used by hunters and Game and Fish Departments instead of killing game animals. With the animal rights nuts around, everything has to be more 'politically correct'. Plus, we would not want to traumatize our children. 

Kind of like the term "euthanize". Vets and animal owners just don't like the blunt term like "We had to kill 'Dobbin' or 'Bowzer'". Euthanize is the kinder and gentler term.

In case you did not know, "cheval" is the name for 'horse meat. Just like cow meat is "beef" and pig meat is "pork", horse meat is "cheval". Just so you'll know what it is on a menu.

We are all waiting to see if they will open up the little processing plants that do 'custom processing' to process equines for private individuals. No inspection is required for custom processors that now process pigs and cattle for individuals that own the animal. We take our bison that we are ready to process to a small family owned plant in Madill, OK.


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## horsecrazygirl

Oh thanks for clearing that up. I hope however it happens its humane. I don't like slaughter but its better then horses being starved to death. Or making long journeys. It would be better if it opened up in OK.


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## Allegro

I am against horse slaughter. WHY? Because it is inhumane, provides no economic benefit to the country, does NOT reduce the cases of abuse and neglect, and it essentially provides no benefit except for the monetary gain of the select few involved in the horse slaughter industry.

Okay, now let me support my statements.
1) Horse slaughter provides no economic benefit to the country. 

A letter from Paula Bacon, of Kaufman, TX, where she was mayor, describes the economic impact of having a slaughter plant in the town: "A horse slaughter plant creates expensive environmental problems for tax payers [and] profoundly affects our crime rate" (Horse Slaughter - Mary Nash's Horse Slaughter Website, "Mayor Paula Bacon Letter Regarding Horse Slaughter and the Effects on Her Community"). Bacon also stated that "had the slaughter plant not closed in 2007, our town would have been required to spend a minimum of $6 million...to build a new wastewater treatment plant" due to the large amounts of waste produced from the slaughter house. Also, toward the end of its operation, the Dallas Crown horse slaughter plant refused to pay the fines for the citations regarding their violations and instead, wanted separate trials regarding each citation. At one time, the plant owed $916,000 in potential fines. The trials were never resolved so the city was left to compensate for the multiple violations of the plant (pg. 4). Also, horse slaughter plants do not provide quality jobs or even many jobs in the first place. In 2006, no more than 178 jobs were supplied by all three of the slaughter houses in the United States. Also, they almost exclusively employed Hispanic immigrants (Horse Slaughter - Mary Nash's Horse Slaughter Website, "Mayor Paula Bacon Letter Regarding Horse Slaughter..."). Dr. Temple Grandin also stated that horse employees who do the killing, bleeding, shackling, and driving should be rotated (grandin.com, "Behavior of Slaughter Plant and Auction Employees...") most likely due to the psychological stress of a job at a slaughter plant.

2) Horse slaughter does not reduce the cases of abuse and neglect.

When horse slaughter rates fell in the 1990's and early 2000's, there was no corresponding rise in neglect or abuse cases and Illinois neglect and abuse cases actually fell when the Cavel horse slaughter plant was temporarily shut down (homesforhorses.org, "Debunking the unwanted horse myth").

3) Horse slaughter is inhumane.

The entire process from being loaded onto overcrowded, double-decker stock trailers on a trip during which the horses are confined for up to 24 hours with no food, rest, or water (USDA, "Slaughter Horse Transport Program"; vetsforequinewelfare.org, "White Paper"), to the actual slaughtering process. While in double-decker stock trailers, horses are unable to put their heads up in a normal position due to the inadequate height of the ceiling. This frequently causes horses to slip and fall on the urine-covered floor due to their inability to balance. In the United States, the accepted method for rendering horses unconscious is called the penetrating captive bolt. The penetrating captive bolt is a device that shoots a metal rod into the brain of an animal. It was originally designed for cattle, whose brain is positioned more anterior in the skull than that of a horse. This causes issues in the efficacy of the method, often requiring multiple blows to render the horse unconscious. Although it can, under certain circumstances, be used efficiently by a veterinarian, slaughter houses do not use veterinarians (vetsforequinewelfare.org, "White Paper"). Also, for proper administration of this device, the horse's head must be adequately restrained to ensure accuracy (avma.org, "Guidelines on Euthanasia”). This does not happen in slaughter houses. Finally, the captive bolt method has been shown through electroencephalograph monitoring that it causes pain when administered (themodernreligion.com, "Islamic Method of Slaughtering Animals is Better - Scientific Reason") which is contrary to the AVMA's definition of humane euthanasia. 


Additional sources:
The Humane Society, "Facts on Horse Slaughter", The Facts on Horse Slaughter : The Humane Society of the United States

The Homes for Horses Coalition, "Horse Slaughter - The Facts", The Homes for Horses Coalition Horse Slaughter - The Facts


----------



## demonwolfmoon

1) Really? So the people hired to work in the plants aren't receiving any economic benefit (aka, getting PAID) to work there? *scratches head*

PS. If that's your argument, neither does ANIMAL EUTH which happens DAILY in kill shelters. Do dogs and cats not matter anymore? Or are you just mad cuz it's a horse, and you don't have to think of the thousands of puppy bodies piled up daily?

2)Yes. Yes it does. Desperate broke people do desperate things...like dumping dying horses in parking lots in Cali...

3) Yes, it is. But Temple Grandin (sp?) said that it can be MADE humane. And btw, how is that any worse than killing cattle.

Do you eat meat? ANY meat, that you don't kill yourself? Guess what...probably died "inhumanely".


*So what's your take on HOW TO FIX THIS?

Don't stop slaughter, stop the IDIOTS that keep breeding horses for no reason except to have a CUTE BABY, or fancy mutts just to sell on their local Craigslist. FIND A SOLUTION instead of complaining all over the internet and finding ways to stop slaughter and make the problem WORSE!!!!!!*


----------



## Allegro

CowboyBob said:


> *5. Who will benefit from the meat? *Only European companies will make a tidy profit from the meat and spend next to nothing in Oklahoma except lawyer fees.
> 
> Maybe we should start eating them too?
> [/COLOR] [/COLOR]



Horse meat is not healthy. We administer many medications (phenylbutazone to name one) which are not approved by the FDA or the EU for use on animals designed for human consumption. They have been shown to be carcinogenic. Give up on the idea of the US allowing the consumption of horse meat produced here. It has already been banned from dog food and soon, the EU will ban the import of US horse meat. Furthermore, allowing slaughter houses in the US will put the country at a great risk for being included in the meat scandal that is taking place in Europe. Right now, the food supply is not at risk as they do not import beef from Europe, and no horses are slaughtered in the country, but if slaughter is allowed to occur in the United States, we will no longer be able to say that our food supply is any safer than Europe's. It will affect beef sales in our country (in Europe, beef sales dropped by 30% following the horse meat scandal). 

Horse slaughter is not good for our country. Please learn the facts about this.


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## demonwolfmoon

Allegro said:


> Horse slaughter is not good for our country. Please learn the facts about this.


*You say this as if you have done your research, but I am reading your posts very clearly, and they reveal that you have researched only SELECTIVELY.
*
Medicines exit the body in due time. So does Bute. I'm currently reasearching the metabolism of phenylbutazone on Pubmed. 

I trust Pubmed FAR FAR more than I trust you or any other person with an agenda, especially one that in my experience is usually based on EMOTION rather than logic and problem solving.


----------



## Allegro

demonwolfmoon said:


> 1) Really? So the people hired to work in the plants aren't receiving any economic benefit (aka, getting PAID) to work there? *scratches head*
> 
> PS. If that's your argument, neither does ANIMAL EUTH which happens DAILY in kill shelters. Do dogs and cats not matter anymore? Or are you just mad cuz it's a horse, and you don't have to think of the thousands of puppy bodies piled up daily?
> 
> 2)Yes. Yes it does. Desperate broke people do desperate things...like dumping dying horses in parking lots in Cali...
> 
> 3) Yes, it is. But Temple Grandin (sp?) said that it can be MADE humane. And btw, how is that any worse than killing cattle.
> 
> Do you eat meat? ANY meat, that you don't kill yourself? Guess what...probably died "inhumanely".
> 
> 
> *So what's your take on HOW TO FIX THIS?
> 
> Don't stop slaughter, stop the IDIOTS that keep breeding horses for no reason except to have a CUTE BABY, or fancy mutts just to sell on their local Craigslist. FIND A SOLUTION instead of complaining all over the internet and finding ways to stop slaughter and make the problem WORSE!!!!!!*


I am so sick of pro-slaughter people dragging dogs and cats into the issue. It is a completely different situation. The euthanasia (humane or otherwise) of cats and dogs in shelters does not compare to horse slaughter. The euthanasia of dogs and cats does not provide economic benefit to anyone. Horse slaughter is all about money. Many of the horses sent to slaughter can be used. 

The solution to the unwanted horse problem is BANNING slaughter. With horse slaughter being banned, there will no longer be a dumping ground for irresponsible breeding. According to sales records from the Old Holland Livestock Auction (one of the largest slaughter auctions in the country), immediately following the ban on horse slaughter, there were less "loose horses" (what the horse industry considers unwanted horses) at the auction, and those horses were sold for more money. A majority of the horses sent to slaughter come from owners who have the resources and intelligence to sell the horses they send to slaughter, or even keep them. They merely choose slaughter because it is the easier route. If they took responsibility, the rescues which try and save the horses could focus on the horses who are from owners that cannot afford the horse anymore. The truth is, most of the horses sent to slaughter do not come from the backyard breeders who think the horse is cute. They come from the racing industry, PMU ranches, and breeders who breed on a large scale. Only 1% of America's horses are sent to slaughter. That number is less than the number of breeders in the US. If each breeder just bred one less horse, that would remove the same number of horses as slaughter, but without encouraging the irresponsible breeding. Banning slaughter will remove the incentive to breed without though of the repercussions of their actions. It will make owners take responsibility for their horses and find proper homes for them.

Regarding the people getting paid to work, there were only 178 employess in all THREE slaughter houses that were running in the united states. The benefits of their income is greatly offset by the negative economical impacts on the towns where the plants are located, on the rest of the meat industry, and on the horse industry.

She said it could be made humane through all the regulations she proposed, but the truth is, those regulations are not going to happen. The constant video monitoring that she mentioned is not going to happen (she mentioned that undercover video footage showed very different treatment compared to the treatment of the animals when she visited the slaughter houses. Also, she said head restraint should not be used in horses receiving the blow from the penetrating captive bolt. This decreases accuracy of the blow, thus causing horses to not be rendered unconscious with the first blow. As horse meat is not going to be consumed in the United States, it will have a lesser priority for governmental funding regarding inspections than plants that process beef and other meat. 

Horse slaughter is different from that of cattle. The heads of cattle are restrained during the administration of the penetrating captive bolt. This is not the case with horses. Also, the penetrating captive bolt was designed for cattle, whose brains are located anterior to that of a horse. This makes the blow far less effective when administered to horses.

I eat meat, yes. We have chickens that we raise and butcher ourselves. They are butchered humanely.


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## Allegro

demonwolfmoon said:


> *You say this as if you have done your research, but I am reading your posts very clearly, and they reveal that you have researched only SELECTIVELY.
> *
> Medicines exit the body in due time. So does Bute. I'm currently reasearching the metabolism of phenylbutazone on Pubmed.
> 
> I trust Pubmed FAR FAR more than I trust you or any other person with an agenda, especially one that in my experience is usually based on EMOTION rather than logic and problem solving.


Look it up on FDA. It says: NOT APPROVED FOR USE IN EQUINES DESIGNED FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION. It is stored in muscle tissues for a long time. Other Medications not allowed for use in horses designed for human consumption include: acepromazine maleate, boldenone undecylenate, omeprazole, ketoprofen, ivermectin, xylazine HCl, hyaluronic acid (sodium hyaluronate), pyrantel tartrate, nitrofurazone, polysulfated glycosaminoglycan, clenbuterol HCl, tolazoline HCl, moxidectin, ponazuril. 

I have to go for the night as I have to work in the morning. I will respond at the next opportunity.


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## demonwolfmoon

I guess the whole point you're missing in your rabid diatribe is that NO ONE WANTS THOSE HORSES.

I had a friend like you on my FB list who was just as big into yelling about how evil horse slaughter was....you know what? I suggested she go rescue a horse. Her response? "I donate to the rescues...I can't AFFORD to board a horse like YOU can"

Um. Right. So you can disparage horse slaughter, but what do you propose happens to all the unwanted horses? All well and good that you have a theory about the slow trickle decline of breeding, but given that horses live 30+ years, what happens to all those poor things on the ground that NO ONE CAN AFFORD, including my loud, loud, imaginative friend?

How is that not comparable to dogs and cats? How many purebreds end up euthed in shelters because no one wants or can afford them. DO YOU THINK THEY WERENT BRED FOR MONEY? Are you kidding me? Who breeds german shepherds (saw at kill shelter, 8 weeks old) and other pure breds *not* for economic reasons?
Heh.

*Find a viable solution, and I'll get onboard. I don't even LIKE eating meat, unlike you, so I'll be ALL OVER a solution that means less dead and WASTED animals.
*
PS) If they're going to die, why aren't we feeding our poor/our dogs/our zoos with them? At least then, their death has *some* benefit.


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## demonwolfmoon

Allegro said:


> Look it up on FDA. It says: NOT APPROVED FOR USE IN EQUINES DESIGNED FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION. It is stored in muscle tissues for a long time. Other Medications not allowed for use in horses designed for human consumption include: acepromazine maleate, boldenone undecylenate, omeprazole, ketoprofen, ivermectin, xylazine HCl, hyaluronic acid (sodium hyaluronate), pyrantel tartrate, nitrofurazone, polysulfated glycosaminoglycan, clenbuterol HCl, tolazoline HCl, moxidectin, ponazuril.
> 
> I have to go for the night as I have to work in the morning. I will respond at the next opportunity.


Actually, the FDA hasn't researched it. Read a little deeper


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## WSArabians

Is it true that the USDA botched this? 

Allegro, do you eat cows?


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## Cherie

The 'WASTED' animals are those chemically euthanized and thrown away. 

Whenever I find someone that just regurgitates and repeats word for word the outright lies and half-truths that the animal rights nuts spew, I automatically know several things:

1) They are not true 'horsemen' and do not nor ever have derived their living and existence from any aspect of the horse industry. If they were, they would know that most of the Animal rights nuts' talking points are totally or partially untrue.

2) They have not done their own research or, again, they would find that most of the Animal rights nuts have 'cherry picked' their talking points and ignored the 'facts' and statement of REAL informed people and groups like the AVMA, the AAEP and even Temple Grandin, the 'darling' of the anti-slaughter nuts. 

3) They have NOT researched how horse processing in places like Iceland (where horses are raised for meat) is performed in a completely humane way.

4) They do not understand how 'economics' and the 'laws of supply and demand' work and how personal property rights are viewed by everyone but them. They do not want to recognize that SUPPLY and DEMAND are ALWAYS are out of sync with each other. 

The supply grows because of great demand and the economics of supplying that demand is a good 'business decision'. Ten or twelve years ago, you could not buy a good prospect for less than $2500.00 to $5000.00 -- so, obviously, people increased the number of mares being bred, particularly saddle horses to fill the great demand for recreational trail and pleasure horses and weekend competitive horses like penning, roping, barrel racing, equitation horses, 4-H and other weekend show horses. The problem comes when the supply outgrows the demand at the same time there is an economic downturn, high unemployment and a recession as severe as the crash of 2007-2008. 

One of the biggest problems is that horses outlive these normal economic cycles. When horses are bred and raised and sold for a lot of money as prospects and 10, 20 and even 30 years later, these same horses find themselves in the middle of a huge recession, are no longer competitive or useful and can no longer be afforded by the very people that paid a lot of money for them years earlier. The exact same thing happened in the real estate and housing industry. In two years it went from "Build and grow the supply of new horses as fast as you can" to "record numbers of bank foreclosures and abandoned properties". These growth cycles in an industry are inevitable. They are never going to see supply and demand in sync with each other. 

Surely ALL animal rights nuts are not too stupid to understand this. It is NOT a 'breeding problem' when there was a great demand for the horses at the time they were bred, raised and sold the first time.

But the animal right nuts will never admit this and will always think they have it right. There will always be 'unwanted horses' and there will always be a need for a humane way to make 100,000 to 200,000 of them leave the marketplace each and every year. The horses available will never be the horses that are in demand. There is no place that this many horses can go. They cannot just disappear. To poison them and waste the meat is insane. The animal rights nuts' REAL AGENDA is to stop all animal ownership and use. They would like to force their radical views on everyone. NO PETS -- NO HORSES OWNED OR USED -- NO PRODUCT OR MEDICINE TESTING -- NO MEAT OR ANIMAL PRODUCTS AVAILABLE TO BE EATEN OR USED!!!! They have one of the most radical agendas of any group in the US, right along with terrorists that want to kill us. Both want to see our way of life and values destroyed.


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## jaydee

Bute isn't allowed in any animal going for slaughter - not just horses so its unlikely that clinical research trails on the use of it in horses for slaughter will ever be done. It was banned for use as a human medication a long time ago because of the high cancer risks and other side effects that people suffered from it.
Although horses may be considered as livestock in some ways as far as the food chain goes they still aren't so no actual accepted trials have ever been done on horse medications and risks to the people eating the horse treated with them which is why so many meds are simply 'banned'
There have also been no studies carried out on the effects of crops fed to horses that have been treated with pesticides etc - this has to be done with all other livestock before an Ag. Chem. can be registered and is currently a big loophole in the horse meat industry.
Livestock farmed for the food chain is slaughtered in its prime - young animals generally less than two years old and certified as healthy and not unwanted old, sick etc animals
The US needs a slaughter business to control the high numbers of unwanted stock but quality meat for the dinner table isn't essentially what they will be. Pet food is a better option for low standard meat


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## deserthorsewoman

Cherie said:


> The 'WASTED' animals are those chemically euthanized and thrown away.
> 
> Whenever I find someone that just regurgitates and repeats word for word the outright lies and half-truths that the animal rights nuts spew, I automatically know several things:
> 
> 1) They are not true 'horsemen' and do not nor ever have derived their living and existence from any aspect of the horse industry. If they were, they would know that most of the Animal rights nuts' talking points are totally or partially untrue.
> 
> 2) They have not done their own research or, again, they would find that most of the Animal rights nuts have 'cherry picked' their talking points and ignored the 'facts' and statement of REAL informed people and groups like the AVMA, the AAEP and even Temple Grandin, the 'darling' of the anti-slaughter nuts.
> 
> 3) They have NOT researched how horse processing in places like Iceland (where horses are raised for meat) is performed in a completely humane way.
> 
> 4) They do not understand how 'economics' and the 'laws of supply and demand' work and how personal property rights are viewed by everyone but them. They do not want to recognize that SUPPLY and DEMAND are ALWAYS are out of sync with each other.
> 
> The supply grows because of great demand and the economics of supplying that demand is a good 'business decision'. Ten or twelve years ago, you could not buy a good prospect for less than $2500.00 to $5000.00 -- so, obviously, people increased the number of mares being bred, particularly saddle horses to fill the great demand for recreational trail and pleasure horses and weekend competitive horses like penning, roping, barrel racing, equitation horses, 4-H and other weekend show horses. The problem comes when the supply outgrows the demand at the same time there is an economic downturn, high unemployment and a recession as severe as the crash of 2007-2008.
> 
> One of the biggest problems is that horses outlive these normal economic cycles. When horses are bred and raised and sold for a lot of money as prospects and 10, 20 and even 30 years later, these same horses find themselves in the middle of a huge recession, are no longer competitive or useful and can no longer be afforded by the very people that paid a lot of money for them years earlier. The exact same thing happened in the real estate and housing industry. In two years it went from "Build and grow the supply of new horses as fast as you can" to "record numbers of bank foreclosures and abandoned properties". These growth cycles in an industry are inevitable. They are never going to see supply and demand in sync with each other.
> 
> Surely ALL animal rights nuts are not too stupid to understand this. It is NOT a 'breeding problem' when there was a great demand for the horses at the time they were bred, raised and sold the first time.
> 
> But the animal right nuts will never admit this and will always think they have it right. There will always be 'unwanted horses' and there will always be a need for a humane way to make 100,000 to 200,000 of them leave the marketplace each and every year. The horses available will never be the horses that are in demand. There is no place that this many horses can go. They cannot just disappear. To poison them and waste the meat is insane. The animal rights nuts' REAL AGENDA is to stop all animal ownership and use. They would like to force their radical views on everyone. NO PETS -- NO HORSES OWNED OR USED -- NO PRODUCT OR MEDICINE TESTING -- NO MEAT OR ANIMAL PRODUCTS AVAILABLE TO BE EATEN OR USED!!!! They have one of the most radical agendas of any group in the US, right along with terrorists that want to kill us. Both want to see our way of life and values destroyed.


^^this!

Wayne Pacelle, president of HSUS in may 1993:

"We have no ethical obligation to preserve the different breeds of livestock produced through selective breeding.....one generation and out! 
We have no problem with the extinction of domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding"


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## Cherie

Thank you deserthorsewoman. 



> Bute isn't allowed in any animal going for slaughter - not just horses so its unlikely that clinical research trails on the use of it in horses for slaughter will ever be done.


Bute is not allowed in slaughter animals ONLY because no withdrawal times have been established by laboratory testing like has been done with all medications used in traditional food animals. Same is true of Banamine and several other anti-inflammatory drugs not used in food animals. That testing is being done now and withdrawal times will be established.

Early testing has found that Bute has a very short half-life -- hence why it must be given 2 times daily for good results. Early testing indicates that only traces of it can be found after only 72 hours and most of it is found in the liver -- which has to detoxify it.

Bute was used extensively in the 60s in humane medicine. I was prescribed Bute (still remember it came in orange and white capsules) when I had a serious knee injury. I was warned that a few people that stayed on it too long could get 'aplastic anemia' so I had frequent blood tests while on it. It was so hard on my stomach that quit taking it long before I was supposed to. I had my knee drained and injected several times and finally cleared it up with DMSO. 

The big BUTE SCARE is just another lie and half truth spread by the animal rights nuts to try to destroy the market for horse meat and thus stop slaughter from that end. 

NOT ONE PERSON OR GROUP OF PEOPLE CAN DOCUMENT ONE SINGLE CASE OF ANYONE EVER BEING HARMED, KILLED OR SICKENED BY EATING HORSE MEAT!

Do the research and find one single case of 'tainted horse meat' actually causing even a tiny bit if harm. Lots of people have died of eating beef. Horse meat has a much safer track record. Frankly, if we did not raise and have our own meat animals custom processed, I would consider 'cheval' to be a safer product.


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## COWCHICK77

Allegro, here is an article on Cattlenetwork.com, Horse-slaughter debate heats up. Just to give you a small sample of how the beef industry feels about horse slaughter.

Horse slaughter has not effected beef prices the past and it will not now...
this article proves where you get your "information".


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## deserthorsewoman

I grew up in horse country, the world's best riding horses are, and have been, bred in. The culls always went to the butcher. Every town had a horse butcher, who would even come to the farm, load the horse on the trailer, shot and bled it and took it away. Others would allow the owner to hold the horse for the " deed", to make sure an old, sick or injured animal would not end up in a bad place. Horse meat was always a bit cheaper than beef, so there was a market for it. We don't have many low end auctions like here. 
An oldtimer breeder told me once, countries who eat horse, have better quality horses.
And countless racehorses all over Europe are being slaughtered for meat for human consumption AND animal feed. With all the doping rules in place for these horses, and enforcing these rules for testing, most medications are out of the system by the time these horses are being processed( they don't pump them full of medications for nothing). 
IMO, the only way to convince breeders to breed less( obviously nobody can influence the "I want to raise my own special foal" people anyway) would be up to breed associations to pay out the biggest chunk of money to adult horses, not in the futurities. 
Oh, and I don't eat horse and wouldn't sell mine for meat.


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## Hang on Fi

First off, pro-slaughter...

Funny thing the hubby and I were talking about this. I talked about how palatable horse meat is (so I've heard) and told him with all the processed meats I mentioned owning feral "meat horses." It's a bit odd to outwardly say it, but my biggest issue would be trying not to associate them with my own. Hence the "feral" part. 

If it came down to it, I wouldn't turn away a plate. 

I would rather a horse be slaughtered than to starve.



deserthorsewoman said:


> And countless racehorses all over Europe are being slaughtered for meat for human consumption AND animal feed. With all the doping rules in place for these horses, and enforcing these rules for testing, most medications are out of the system by the time these horses are being processed*( they don't pump them full of medications for nothing). *



The bolded part even applies to humans. 

Your son is day-dreaming, oh dope him up he has ADHD... We over-dope quite a lot of things in the US.

Your daughter gets in a rut frequently, she must be depressed... Give her anti-depressents.

*scoff*


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## smrobs

LOL, here, I'll throw another monkey with a wrench into this thread.

I'd also support the slaughter (for human consumption) of culled BLM mustangs that are not adopted by a certain age. With them, you wouldn't have to worry about drug withdrawal times and even most genetic diseases are difficult/impossible to find in them.

That alone would open up hundreds of thousands of dollars a year where we taxpayers weren't having to provide hay for thousands of horses in holding pens that will never be adopted and can't be turned back out into the wild.


----------



## jaydee

Cherie said:


> Thank you deserthorsewoman.
> 
> Bute is not allowed in slaughter animals ONLY because no withdrawal times have been established by laboratory testing like has been done with all medications used in traditional food animals. Same is true of Banamine and several other anti-inflammatory drugs not used in food animals. That testing is being done now and withdrawal times will be established.
> 
> Early testing has found that Bute has a very short half-life -- hence why it must be given 2 times daily for good results. Early testing indicates that only traces of it can be found after only 72 hours and most of it is found in the liver -- which has to detoxify it.
> 
> Bute was used extensively in the 60s in humane medicine. I was prescribed Bute (still remember it came in orange and white capsules) when I had a serious knee injury. I was warned that a few people that stayed on it too long could get 'aplastic anemia' so I had frequent blood tests while on it. It was so hard on my stomach that quit taking it long before I was supposed to. I had my knee drained and injected several times and finally cleared it up with DMSO.
> 
> The big BUTE SCARE is just another lie and half truth spread by the animal rights nuts to try to destroy the market for horse meat and thus stop slaughter from that end.
> 
> NOT ONE PERSON OR GROUP OF PEOPLE CAN DOCUMENT ONE SINGLE CASE OF ANYONE EVER BEING HARMED, KILLED OR SICKENED BY EATING HORSE MEAT!
> 
> Do the research and find one single case of 'tainted horse meat' actually causing even a tiny bit if harm. Lots of people have died of eating beef. Horse meat has a much safer track record. Frankly, if we did not raise and have our own meat animals custom processed, I would consider 'cheval' to be a safer product.


Why do you ask me to 'do the research'?
I could have told you that you would have to eat a lot of that meat for the medication even if present in trace amounts to be harmful but that doesn't escape the fact that Bute is not permitted in any meat intended for human consumption because its not a permitted drug for use in humans.
It may not remain in the bloodstream but part of the recent UK uproar over horsemeat being passed off as beef was that several of the carcasses tested positive for Bute in deep tissue analysis. 
Do you have any idea how long acceptable trials take to complete?


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## Cherie

The 'uproar' comes totally from the animal rights nuts stirring the pot. They have tried every way possible to malign the industry and to spread false rumors of dangerous meat. BUT, THEY STILL CANNOT SITE ONE SINGLE CASE OF ANYONE BEING SICKENED OR EVEN FOUND TO HAVE ANY MEASURABLE SUBSTANCE IN THEIR BODIES.

And as for Bute not being used in human medicine -- MANY animal drugs are not used in humans. Many hormones and deadly poisons like 'ionofors' are not used in humans. Traces of some of these chemicals that are fed routinely to producing dairy cattle and feedlot cattle will KILL people. They still are allowed and have set withdrawal times. [Try opening a sack of Rumensen and sprinkle it on you cereal and see how long it takes a non-rumanent like you to die.] This is the main reason we raise our own meat. I do not want the antibiotics and chemical additives that are routinely given to commercial food animals.

The laboratory testing on Bute and other untested 'banned' drugs is supposed to be done by July 1st of this year. Hopefully they can meet that date. The drug companies and USDA are jointly getting this testing done like it has been on other drugs for many years. When testing is completed, I would hope the sale of cheval will be allowed in this country.

smrobs -- I heartily agree. Taxpayers are supporting about 30,000 useless, feral modern horses (commonly known as mustangs) around the country that are living out long useless lives on the public dole. These are only the ones in holding facilities and sanctuaries -- does not count the ones running 'wild'. The ones being held for no reason what so ever cost us taxpayers between $21 million and $25 million dollars a year. That is on top of the costs of roundups, shipping excess horses off the rangelands and other feral horse programs.


----------



## tinyliny

smrobs said:


> LOL, here, I'll throw another monkey with a wrench into this thread.
> 
> I'd also support the slaughter (for human consumption) of culled BLM mustangs that are not adopted by a certain age. With them, you wouldn't have to worry about drug withdrawal times and even most genetic diseases are difficult/impossible to find in them.
> 
> That alone would open up hundreds of thousands of dollars a year where we taxpayers weren't having to provide hay for thousands of horses in holding pens that will never be adopted and can't be turned back out into the wild.


 
Like grass fed beef, some folks might pay quite a lot for this kind of "clean" meat. there's NO chemicals in it at all. probably very lean, and maybe healthier than other meats? money spent on the horses slaughtered and sold for meat could be used to keep those left in the wild on good range and in supportable numbers.


----------



## Allegro

Cherie said:


> But the animal right nuts will never admit this and will always think they have it right. There will always be 'unwanted horses' and there will always be a need for a humane way to make 100,000 to 200,000 of them leave the marketplace each and every year. The horses available will never be the horses that are in demand. There is no place that this many horses can go. They cannot just disappear. To poison them and waste the meat is insane. The animal rights nuts' REAL AGENDA is to stop all animal ownership and use. They would like to force their radical views on everyone. NO PETS -- NO HORSES OWNED OR USED -- NO PRODUCT OR MEDICINE TESTING -- NO MEAT OR ANIMAL PRODUCTS AVAILABLE TO BE EATEN OR USED!!!! They have one of the most radical agendas of any group in the US, right along with terrorists that want to kill us. Both want to see our way of life and values destroyed.


Wow, I have NO IDEA where you got that from my posts.... I never said that we should not have pets, that horses should not be owned or used, that no meat or animal products should be available to be eaten or used, or that we should not allow product or medicine testing. Really? It seems pretty pathetic that you put me in this category considering that I am taking a logical approach to the horse slaughter issue. I find it quite irritating that you have apparently lost all logic in reason in your posting. It makes me much less prone to regard your information and opinions as credible. 

I have merely noticed, through research on BOTH PARTS of the argument, that horse slaughter is not an economical decision for America. The truth is, horse slaughter is costly, and will not benefit our economy. Also, horse slaughter will not reduce the number of unwanted horses. It only PROMOTES irresponsible breeding through providing a dumping ground for breeders who breed irresponsibly. 

With regards to your statement about unwanted horses never being in demand, that just goes to show how little experience you have had with them. The horse rescue that I am involved with, Little Brook Farm, has rescued over 70 horses. Many of their horses are used in riding lessons, camps, eventing, show jumping, and dressage. Hamlet, one of their horses who was rescued for a few hundred dollars, is a grade who was headed for slaughter. He now competes in training level eventing. They have received an offer, which they turned down, for $40,000 for this horse. He was previously in the bracket of "unwanted horses" and would have ended up in slaughter had they not have rescued him. Another one of their horses, a thoroughbred, was appraised for $22,000 only a few months after his rescue. Yet another example of the value of the so-called unwanted horses is a horse they just recently rescued. He is a thoroughbred who was bought as a two-year old for $150,000. Just a few years following, he was headed for slaughter, emaciated. He is now a healthy, sound, 5 year-old. The truth is, if a majority of the unwanted horses were given training and care instead of being sent to slaughter, they would be perfectly useful horses. Banning slaughter would reduce the number of horses bred, as breeders would be unable to dump their horses and would instead have to find homes for them. It would actually be a good business opportunity, as people would soon realize the value of many of these horses once their are trained. There would be more places like Little Brook Farm, who take the population of primarily good horses (although unwanted) and train them in something at which they excel. The truth is, most of the unwanted horses are only unwanted because they have not been given a job.

Finally, horse slaughter is NOT humane. Everything, from being loaded into Double-decker stock trailers (supposed to be illegal, but still happens), to the actual slaughter process. By the way, I have read articles from the AVMA. The captive bolt is designed (even according to the AVMA and AAEP) to be administered by a veterinarian. Veterinarians do not administer the captive bolt in slaughter houses. It is administered by employees who are not highly trained on administration of this device. This, combined with the lack of proper head restraint, causes a decreased accuracy. Since the captive bolt can only be administered effectively to a very precise location, it frequently results in ineffective stunning.


----------



## Allegro

COWCHICK77 said:


> Allegro, here is an article on Cattlenetwork.com, Horse-slaughter debate heats up. Just to give you a small sample of how the beef industry feels about horse slaughter.
> 
> Horse slaughter has not effected beef prices the past and it will not now...
> this article proves where you get your "information".


Frozen burger sales plunge 43% after horsemeat scandal | UK news | guardian.co.uk 

Really? Beef sales didn't drop? 

French sales of beef dishes drop 45% after horsemeat scandal
French sales of beef dishes drop 45% after horsemeat scandal < French news | Expatica France

The only thing that prevented the horse meat scandal from ending up on US soil was the fact that the US didn't import beef from other countries, and didn't have slaughter houses in their country. Once horse slaughter is on US soil once more, we will no longer be able to say that.


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## wyominggrandma

I love when folks get on here and cry about us "meanies" who are pro slaughter. They always say the same thing: these old, crippled, dangerous, "fill in the blank" horses should be rescued and not slaughtered. Umm, I don't see the humaniacs down at the auctions buying them up and putting them out on their big ranches and feeding these horses to save them. I don't see them buying off Craigs list or wherever and saving all these horses. Heck, I am sure half the time, the humaniacs live in the city and don't own horses, they expect everyone else to fix the problem. Why don't they donate their paychecks to feed starving horses? Yea, right... HUMANIACS, as I call them, all have the typical agenda that PETA, SHARK and the HSUS have: get rid of all animals forever and just pay them all the money they bring in from suckers who believe their agendas..
They bring up medications: hmm, I have sold thousands and thousands of vaccinations given to cattle starting when they hit the ground, give to pregnant cows, given to calves, given to dairy cows, given to beef cows. They are injected with stuff almost all their lives to keep them from getting sick, to gain weight, etc.They get injections given under the skin to make them gain weight, time release stuff. And I just love the " the horse knows it is going to die" statements these folks make. No, the horse doesn't know its going to die, why it's stressing is because it smells blood.Just like a horse that panics because a bag blows across its face, its not normal.. Animals do not think like humans and the sooner that human emotions are not given to horses, the better. When we take hunting horses up to pack out game, they smell the blood and some get quite upset with it., others could care less. Please do not tell me they are thinking" oh no, I am going to die because I smell blood". They smell blood, any blood and get riled up. Yet, its okay to eat beef, from cows who smell blood and panic also. Cows who are packed into the trucks, who fall and hurt themselves, who lay in urine, cows who in traveling to slaughter get a leg broken. Yet somehow, the same humaniacs who cry and bellow for the horses figure its okay to let cattle get the same treatment............ Yah okay.
I eat meat, I hunt and shoot game to eat, butcher beef.


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## Allegro

demonwolfmoon said:


> I guess the whole point you're missing in your rabid diatribe is that NO ONE WANTS THOSE HORSES.
> 
> I had a friend like you on my FB list who was just as big into yelling about how evil horse slaughter was....you know what? I suggested she go rescue a horse. Her response? "I donate to the rescues...I can't AFFORD to board a horse like YOU can"
> 
> Um. Right. So you can disparage horse slaughter, but what do you propose happens to all the unwanted horses? All well and good that you have a theory about the slow trickle decline of breeding, but given that horses live 30+ years, what happens to all those poor things on the ground that NO ONE CAN AFFORD, including my loud, loud, imaginative friend?
> 
> How is that not comparable to dogs and cats? How many purebreds end up euthed in shelters because no one wants or can afford them. DO YOU THINK THEY WERENT BRED FOR MONEY? Are you kidding me? Who breeds german shepherds (saw at kill shelter, 8 weeks old) and other pure breds *not* for economic reasons?
> Heh.


I am talking about money in regards to the euthanasia. I am talking about the actual killing. Horse slaughter is ONLY about profit. When slaughter plants were legal in the US, they were importing horses from Canada even though there were still plenty of unwanted horses in the US. Why? Because they want the horses that will produce the best meat. If horse slaughterhouse owners didn't make a profit, there would be no horse slaughter. They wouldn't continue to slaughter the unwanted horses to supposedly keep the equine population down. You need to realize that horse slaughter does not, has never, and never will care about equine welfare.

I am involved in a horse rescue, Little Brook Farm, which is one of the oldest horse rescues on the East Coast. They have rescued over 70 horses. I own 5 horses, 4 of which are grades. I also sponsor one of the horses at Little Brook Farm. So no, I don't just complain about the issue. 

As I mentioned in a previous comment, most of the unwanted horses are only unwanted because they have not been given a job. I have a solution to the unwanted horse problem. Combined with the banning of slaughter (which will cause a reduction in breeding), the solution is rescue, retraining, and placement. Little Brook Farm is the best example of that. They take the population of mostly good horses (although unwanted) and train them in disciplines at which they excel. Many of their horses are used and trained as lesson horses, in riding camps, in eventing, in show jumping, in dressage, or even in vaulting. Nearly half of the horses currently at the rescue are considered young horses. These are horses that have a future and can be trained if people take the time. In my previous comment, I mentioned Hamlet, who is a perfect example of what unwanted horses are capable of. The rescue has been offered $40,000 for this grade horse who was originally saved from slaughter for a few hundred dollars. Hamlet competes in training level eventing. All he needed was care, and training to go from unwanted to wanted.


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## Gremmy

So having foreign business INVEST in the U.S. (doing business in the U.S., buying U.S. dollars, _paying U.S. taxes_), creating jobs, supporting American businesses (transporters, auctions, ports/airports, equipment suppliers, etc), and _exporting_ American horsemeat to foreign markets is not economically beneficial? What exactly is your definition of economically beneficial?


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## COWCHICK77

R-Calf supports horse slaughter and I have yet to talk to any cattle owner that is concerned about the price of beef cattle dropping because of it. 

Mr. Pacelle of the HSUS is trying to stir the pot and "scare" beef producers into jumping on board with banning slaughter. Beef producers have a different outlook on it, they figure if you ban horse slaughter how much much longer will beef slaughter, chicken slaughter or whatever is banned as well. They more concerned about the slippery slope of banning animal slaughter rather than price dropping.


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## wyominggrandma

Stopping slaughter WILL NOT reduce breeding. No way, no how. The people who are breeding just to breed will continue to do so and sell their babies for a couple of hundred bucks to anyone who wants them. All stopping slaughter does is make it impossible to send an UNWANTED horse to a plant. It doesn't stop it from being dumped in the desert to fend for itself, it doesn't stop it from being dumped at the local fairgrounds and left, it doesn't stop it from being put in the "north forty" where nobody can see it and watch it starve to death because it no longer is healthy enough to ride or whatever. Or used for target practice..Slaughter doesn't "care" about equine welfare , but its a good thing to have for the horses whose owners who won't pay to euthanize them by the vet to put them out of the misery and instead let them die painful deaths.
I am glad you work for a horse rescue, that is wonderful.. You still are not realizing that there ARE horses that can't be given a job. There are horses that are NO LONGER able to do anything but eat, and just hanging around and eating all day is expensive. NO RESCUE can keep every horse alive to give it a job. That is not even feasable or reality, that is a dream.


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## Allegro

wyominggrandma said:


> I love when folks get on here and cry about us "meanies" who are pro slaughter. They always say the same thing: these old, crippled, dangerous, "fill in the blank" horses should be rescued and not slaughtered. Umm, I don't see the humaniacs down at the auctions buying them up and putting them out on their big ranches and feeding these horses to save them. I don't see them buying off Craigs list or wherever and saving all these horses. Heck, I am sure half the time, the humaniacs live in the city and don't own horses, they expect everyone else to fix the problem. Why don't they donate their paychecks to feed starving horses? Yea, right... HUMANIACS, as I call them, all have the typical agenda that PETA, SHARK and the HSUS have: get rid of all animals forever and just pay them all the money they bring in from suckers who believe their agendas..


Really? Old, sick and dangerous? According to a study conducted by the USDA, 92% are considered to be in good condition. At Little Brook Farm, the horse rescue which I am involved with, I can only recall 1 horse who was so behaviorally messed up that he was unable to be fixed. The horses that are sent to slaughter aren't old or sick and many aren't dangerous.

Oh, and by the way, I live in the country, have 5 horses (4 of which are grade) and I sponsor one of the horses at Little Brook Farm.


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## smrobs

Allegro said:


> I have merely noticed, through research on BOTH PARTS of the argument, that horse slaughter is not an economical decision for America. The truth is, horse slaughter is costly, and will not benefit our economy. Also, horse slaughter will not reduce the number of unwanted horses. It only PROMOTES irresponsible breeding through providing a dumping ground for breeders who breed irresponsibly.
> 
> Slaughtering horses is no more costly than slaughtering cattle. The only difference is in the handling of the live animal. Slaughter does not promote the breeding of unwanted horses. Even with the lack of slaughter houses here in the US, how many news stories have we seen about someone who had anywhere from 100 to 1000 feral horses running on their land and continuing to breed and inbreed and inbreed? Stupid people promote irresponsible breeding and they will continue to do it regardless of whether there is an actual outlet for the resulting animals or not.
> 
> Also, how can having another meat product available for export/purchase going to possibly be bad for our economy? Very soon, beef is going to be too expensive for many people to buy due to the extensive drought the last couple of years and the massive sell-off that resulted. Instead of having another red meat alternative that was less expensive, you'd rather they just go without? Because of the aversion to eating horse meat here in the US, the sale of horse meat for consumption will never overshadow the sale of beef, it's just not going to happen.
> 
> With regards to your statement about unwanted horses never being in demand, that just goes to show how little experience you have had with them.
> 
> Wow, nice way to make assumptions about someone that you don't know. Cherie has probably saved more horses from going to the killer than you can imagine...definitely more than the 70 that your rescue has saved. She's been in the horse business for, I believe, over 50 years.
> 
> The horse rescue that I am involved with, Little Brook Farm, has rescued over 70 horses. Many of their horses are used in riding lessons, camps, eventing, show jumping, and dressage. Hamlet, one of their horses who was rescued for a few hundred dollars, is a grade who was headed for slaughter. He now competes in training level eventing. They have received an offer, which they turned down, for $40,000 for this horse. He was previously in the bracket of "unwanted horses" and would have ended up in slaughter had they not have rescued him. Another one of their horses, a thoroughbred, was appraised for $22,000 only a few months after his rescue. Yet another example of the value of the so-called unwanted horses is a horse they just recently rescued. He is a thoroughbred who was bought as a two-year old for $150,000. Just a few years following, he was headed for slaughter, emaciated. He is now a healthy, sound, 5 year-old. The truth is, if a majority of the unwanted horses were given training and care instead of being sent to slaughter, they would be perfectly useful horses.
> 
> How nice that you were able to find some diamonds in the rough, but not all slaughter bound horses are suitable to be rescued and rehabbed into trustworthy riding partners. Many are older, unbroke/unhandled, lame, diseased, soured/ruined, or psychotic. What other outlet is there for those horses?
> 
> Banning slaughter would reduce the number of horses bred, as breeders would be unable to dump their horses and would instead have to find homes for them.
> 
> No, sorry, that's not the way it works as has been evident in the last few years regarding horse care and breeding even with the lack of slaughter here in the US. People continue to breed their fugly mutts because it's a speshul kolor or a rare designer breed like a Pintaloosafresian or exhibits some speshul gait like 3-legged-crab. They still continue to sell them off to poor unsuspecting beginner riders/buyers who see a pretty face and fall in love. If they don't find a buyer, they simply dump them at the local auction and hope they can get $25 or $50 bucks for them. Those people don't care if they get that money from the killer or some poor naive soul or some "rescue".
> 
> It would actually be a good business opportunity, as people would soon realize the value of many of these horses once their are trained. There would be more places like Little Brook Farm, who take the population of primarily good horses (although unwanted) and train them in something at which they excel. The truth is, most of the unwanted horses are only unwanted because they have not been given a job.
> 
> The thing is, bleeding hearts go around "rescuing" those horses that look to be in need of the most help, not those horses that could go on to live a full and productive life. How many news stories have you read in the last few years about someone "saving" a horse that will be capable of nothing more than plodding around the pasture as a companion for the rest of it's life; that horse with the prosthetic leg, that horse that was badly burned, etc. Those people spend thousands of dollars on saving one animal that will never be good for anything when they could have taken those thousands of dollars and bought a dozen or more young/unhandled horses, rehabbed/trained them, and found them good homes. Nope, they feel like they are doing more good by saving the animal that should be put down than saving the animals that have the best chance at a real life.
> 
> Because those bleeding hearts "save" those horses that are basically worthless in the grand scheme of things, then a horse that is actually nice and broke and worthwhile is losing a potential home.
> 
> Finally, horse slaughter is NOT humane. Everything, from being loaded into Double-decker stock trailers (supposed to be illegal, but still happens), to the actual slaughter process. By the way, I have read articles from the AVMA. The captive bolt is designed (even according to the AVMA and AAEP) to be administered by a veterinarian. Veterinarians do not administer the captive bolt in slaughter houses. It is administered by employees who are not highly trained on administration of this device. This, combined with the lack of proper head restraint, causes a decreased accuracy. Since the captive bolt can only be administered effectively to a very precise location, it frequently results in ineffective stunning.


The thing is, it's a lesser of 2 evils thing. Nothing about killing an animal in any fashion is ever going to be _humane _in your sense of the word (completely painless and stress free). Even "humane euthanasia" isn't always humane, I've seen it go wrong even when administered by a good vet. When that goes wrong, it goes _very_ wrong.

But, with increased funding for setting up proper slaughter houses, designed for horses instead of cattle, there is increased funding for education for the folks doing the actual handling and killing, there is increased funding for equipment and fencing designed for horses to make the experience as low stress as possible.


As to your post with those links, they are irrelevant because they are not dealing with the subject at hand. You're trying to compare apples to pomegranates there. It was not the presence of horse slaughter and the sale of horse meat that caused that drop, it was the fault of big businesses who compromised the quality of their products and then proceeded to mis-label them.

It's no different than when we have an outbreak of salmonella or e-coli here in the US. Whatever produce it happens to be found on (tomatoes, cantaloupe, jalapeños, lettuce, etc), then the sale of that particular produce fall off for a time because people are scared.


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## Allegro

COWCHICK77 said:


> R-Calf supports horse slaughter and I have yet to talk to any cattle owner that is concerned about the price of beef cattle dropping because of it.
> 
> Mr. Pacelle of the HSUS is trying to stir the pot and "scare" beef producers into jumping on board with banning slaughter. Beef producers have a different outlook on it, they figure if you ban horse slaughter how much much longer will beef slaughter, chicken slaughter or whatever is banned as well. They more concerned about the slippery slope of banning animal slaughter rather than price dropping.


Perhaps you didn't take the time to notice where my links came from. Go back and check... did any of them come from the HSUS? Nope. They came from EUROPEAN news articles.


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## wyominggrandma

And we live in the U.S......................
Guess I go to different auctions than you, I see horses that are so dangerous/spoiled that they are DANGEROUS........ I have seen very old, crippled and sick horses. Nobody wants them. I am so glad you work for a horse rescue and have horses. I work for a vet and see the bad ones, the sick ones, the dangerous ones. I don't look at the world and see hearts and rainbows, I see real life.
You have decided that your opinion and links and data are the only truthful ones. Guess the rest of us don't know anything.


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## COWCHICK77

Good for you that you work for a rescue and are one part of the solution, you are already doing more than most that are against slaughter.
I used to work for a couple of horse auctions, I seen what goes through, who buys and what price the horses went for. I would buy a trailer load, ride them and sell them to a suitable home. Some would consider it "Horse Trading", which seems to be a dirty word anymore, but in reality I was giving horses a second chance. 
I was also around when things went to sh!t and security was needed to keep people from dumping horses at the auctions, or turning horses loose or out with other peoples horses, that was reality, not just something I read on the internet. The price of decent saddle horses dropped so much that it wasn't worth trying to buy, retrain(while feeding them!) to resell. With the increase of horse prices comes the interest to buy those "unwanted" or loose horses in the sale and rehome them.


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## COWCHICK77

I didn't say the articles you posted came from HSUS. 
Wayne Pacelle of the HSUS is the one _here in the United States_, not Europe, claiming that beef prices will drop as scare tactic.


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## Cherie

Wow! You've volunteered at a rescue that has saved 70 horses from slaughter. Goody for them. That only leaves 150,930 that they didn't save last year. And what would you propose should be done with them? I am still waiting for someone to answer this for me. You have a ways to go.

I have personally 'rescued probably twice that many all by myself. That is only the ones that were 'keepers' and not the ones that did not work out. You know how I did it? I bid one bid higher than the slaughter buyer at the local auction. I'm afraid my motives were not so noble. I did not bid on them to 'save' them. I bid on them because I though they would make me money and/or fill a hole I had for a certain kind of horse. About half of them have to go back to a later sale because they did not work. Some times they get no private bids and some times they do. Most ride better and look better when they re-sell, but for some reason they were not going to be what I needed. Some have health problems, soundness problems, won't get along in a herd, are too spoiled to do the job I had for them like being 'cold backed', and the list goes on and on. 

If you go to my 'profile' page here on the forum, the little bay gelding my 4 year old granddaughter is riding is a horse I rescued for $300.00 at the local sale barn. He was spoiled and came from a bucking string after 'flunking out' from a cutting trainer. He bucked everyone off and got packed off as a bucking horse. When he would not buck good enough he was hauled to the sale and I picked him up for one bid more than the slaughter buyer. He and three other horses in my present trail string were 'sale barn rescues'. I would never 'adopt' or buy from a rescue, but I have nothing against buying a bargain at an auction. The last one I took back was WAAAY to mean to run with other geldings or ride in a group of horses. But, when he went back to the auction, he sold to an individual and actually made a couple hundred bucks. He did ride better just from the few rides we put on him. Another one I took back about that same time was wind-broke, roared really badly and heaved so badly if you rode him faster than a walk, that he was unusable. He seemed like he would have been a really nice horse otherwise. I disclosed that he was wind-broke when I resold him and he got no other bids. I guess you could have 'saved' him and thrown thousands of $$$$ at him and still had a wind-broke horse. If I had unlimited funds and did not have to make a living, I would have 'donated' him to a hippotherapy program to see if he was kind enough and could be sound enough for that job. 

Your numbers are really completely unrealistic. If I watch 100 horses go to the slaughter buyers at a sale, I know they are going to ship over half of them straight to the processing plant or feed lot. Those horses are micro-chipped at the sale barn before they leave. They cannot be resold. 

The others will go to their ranch and will be 'tried' to see if they can be resold for more money than slaughter price to other horse traders and other horse buyers. I used to know (pretty well) a couple of the other slaughter buyers in years past. They said fewer than half of the ones they actually tried out were marketable. Sometime only 10% of them were marketable. I have usually been able to 'use' about half of the sale barn horses I have bought.

I do not think you have a clue what an 'unwanted horse' is. It is a horse that goes to a sale and receives no bids from private individuals. Would some of them make money in the right hands? Sure. But, You cannot go to a single sale where there are not dozens of buyers and traders there. If not one of them wants a certain horse, it is unwanted -- at least on that night. If they are all so great, why don't you go and stick your hands in the air a few times. You can then make all of the money on those wonderful horses. Some unwanted horses will be crooked legged or bad footed; Some will be just plain ugly; Some will be really bad movers with straight shoulders and bone jarring gaits; Some will go lame if they are ridden more than once a week or once a month; Some will have ringbones or bad tendons or ligaments; Some will have bone chips in joints; Some will be rank or just plain mean; You want ALL of them? Just go buy them. They are dirt cheap.

Well, I have to go back to the sale barn. I bought a $600.00 12 -14 year old 'gentle' gelding earlier today. Hope the Bute or Ace does not wear off by tomorrow and I find he is a different horse than I bought a couple of hours ago.


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## onuilmar

smrobs said:


> The thing is, it's a lesser of 2 evils thing. Nothing about killing an animal in any fashion is ever going to be _humane _in your sense of the word (completely painless and stress free). Even "humane euthanasia" isn't always humane, I've seen it go wrong even when administered by a good vet. When that goes wrong, it goes _very_ wrong.


And even *forever* horses die. Everything dies. Re-using the carcass is a good thing, in my book.

It's a huge carcass and burying, burning or landfilling it are all difficult expensive options that *waste* good organic material.

We live in a finite world and need to learn about re-using materials. I read elsewhere that people are beginning to remember that manure (all manure) is also a source of energy.

Sorry, I'm getting off topic.


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## Speed Racer

I've thought long and hard about this. I have a 27 y/o who will be going to the Bridge sooner rather than later.

When I lost my heart horse I had him buried out in one of my front pastures. I honestly can't in good conscience bury another one here, considering I don't want to run the risk of contaminating the ground water source.

When it's time to let Mack go I'll have him shot and picked up by the local rendering company. That way, his body won't be rotting in the ground and I won't have to worry about contaminating the water source for everyone on my road.


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## deserthorsewoman

In Europe we didn't have the possibility of burying, at least not legally, so a truck comes and picks them up to be cremated. In Germany this is a big, open on the top one, which also picks up anything else dead and leftovers from slaughter houses. Not pleasant, if this matter can be pleasant.
In Italy they send a small truck with a steel " coffin", pull the carcass in, close it and drive it off. One at a time. 500$. The heat /energy produced with burning is used at a plastic bucket factory.
I specifically asked. Containers are disinfected after every carcass. 
That's about as dignified as it gets.


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## Corporal

I haven't ever buried any of my older horses that passed on. After they pass, I cut off the manes and tails and I call a company called, Animal By Products. EVERY TIME the driver arrives they are sympathetic since they pick up primarily pets. Should you need it, just PM me with their number.


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## Joe4d

I think I wanna move to OK, cant you drop off your brats at a hospital up to about age 17 ?


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## Allegro

smrobs said:


> I have merely noticed, through research on BOTH PARTS of the argument, that horse slaughter is not an economical decision for America. The truth is, horse slaughter is costly, and will not benefit our economy. Also, horse slaughter will not reduce the number of unwanted horses. It only PROMOTES irresponsible breeding through providing a dumping ground for breeders who breed irresponsibly.
> 
> Slaughtering horses is no more costly than slaughtering cattle. The only difference is in the handling of the live animal. Slaughter does not promote the breeding of unwanted horses. Even with the lack of slaughter houses here in the US, how many news stories have we seen about someone who had anywhere from 100 to 1000 feral horses running on their land and continuing to breed and inbreed and inbreed? Stupid people promote irresponsible breeding and they will continue to do it regardless of whether there is an actual outlet for the resulting animals or not.
> 
> Also, how can having another meat product available for export/purchase going to possibly be bad for our economy? Very soon, beef is going to be too expensive for many people to buy due to the extensive drought the last couple of years and the massive sell-off that resulted. Instead of having another red meat alternative that was less expensive, you'd rather they just go without? Because of the aversion to eating horse meat here in the US, the sale of horse meat for consumption will never overshadow the sale of beef, it's just not going to happen.
> 
> With regards to your statement about unwanted horses never being in demand, that just goes to show how little experience you have had with them.
> 
> Wow, nice way to make assumptions about someone that you don't know. Cherie has probably saved more horses from going to the killer than you can imagine...definitely more than the 70 that your rescue has saved. She's been in the horse business for, I believe, over 50 years.
> 
> The horse rescue that I am involved with, Little Brook Farm, has rescued over 70 horses. Many of their horses are used in riding lessons, camps, eventing, show jumping, and dressage. Hamlet, one of their horses who was rescued for a few hundred dollars, is a grade who was headed for slaughter. He now competes in training level eventing. They have received an offer, which they turned down, for $40,000 for this horse. He was previously in the bracket of "unwanted horses" and would have ended up in slaughter had they not have rescued him. Another one of their horses, a thoroughbred, was appraised for $22,000 only a few months after his rescue. Yet another example of the value of the so-called unwanted horses is a horse they just recently rescued. He is a thoroughbred who was bought as a two-year old for $150,000. Just a few years following, he was headed for slaughter, emaciated. He is now a healthy, sound, 5 year-old. The truth is, if a majority of the unwanted horses were given training and care instead of being sent to slaughter, they would be perfectly useful horses.
> 
> How nice that you were able to find some diamonds in the rough, but not all slaughter bound horses are suitable to be rescued and rehabbed into trustworthy riding partners. Many are older, unbroke/unhandled, lame, diseased, soured/ruined, or psychotic. What other outlet is there for those horses?
> 
> Banning slaughter would reduce the number of horses bred, as breeders would be unable to dump their horses and would instead have to find homes for them.
> 
> No, sorry, that's not the way it works as has been evident in the last few years regarding horse care and breeding even with the lack of slaughter here in the US. People continue to breed their fugly mutts because it's a speshul kolor or a rare designer breed like a Pintaloosafresian or exhibits some speshul gait like 3-legged-crab. They still continue to sell them off to poor unsuspecting beginner riders/buyers who see a pretty face and fall in love. If they don't find a buyer, they simply dump them at the local auction and hope they can get $25 or $50 bucks for them. Those people don't care if they get that money from the killer or some poor naive soul or some "rescue".
> 
> It would actually be a good business opportunity, as people would soon realize the value of many of these horses once their are trained. There would be more places like Little Brook Farm, who take the population of primarily good horses (although unwanted) and train them in something at which they excel. The truth is, most of the unwanted horses are only unwanted because they have not been given a job.
> 
> The thing is, bleeding hearts go around "rescuing" those horses that look to be in need of the most help, not those horses that could go on to live a full and productive life. How many news stories have you read in the last few years about someone "saving" a horse that will be capable of nothing more than plodding around the pasture as a companion for the rest of it's life; that horse with the prosthetic leg, that horse that was badly burned, etc. Those people spend thousands of dollars on saving one animal that will never be good for anything when they could have taken those thousands of dollars and bought a dozen or more young/unhandled horses, rehabbed/trained them, and found them good homes. Nope, they feel like they are doing more good by saving the animal that should be put down than saving the animals that have the best chance at a real life.
> 
> Because those bleeding hearts "save" those horses that are basically worthless in the grand scheme of things, then a horse that is actually nice and broke and worthwhile is losing a potential home.
> 
> Finally, horse slaughter is NOT humane. Everything, from being loaded into Double-decker stock trailers (supposed to be illegal, but still happens), to the actual slaughter process. By the way, I have read articles from the AVMA. The captive bolt is designed (even according to the AVMA and AAEP) to be administered by a veterinarian. Veterinarians do not administer the captive bolt in slaughter houses. It is administered by employees who are not highly trained on administration of this device. This, combined with the lack of proper head restraint, causes a decreased accuracy. Since the captive bolt can only be administered effectively to a very precise location, it frequently results in ineffective stunning.
> The thing is, it's a lesser of 2 evils thing. Nothing about killing an animal in any fashion is ever going to be _humane _in your sense of the word (completely painless and stress free). Even "humane euthanasia" isn't always humane, I've seen it go wrong even when administered by a good vet. When that goes wrong, it goes _very_ wrong.
> 
> But, with increased funding for setting up proper slaughter houses, designed for horses instead of cattle, there is increased funding for education for the folks doing the actual handling and killing, there is increased funding for equipment and fencing designed for horses to make the experience as low stress as possible.
> 
> 
> As to your post with those links, they are irrelevant because they are not dealing with the subject at hand. You're trying to compare apples to pomegranates there. It was not the presence of horse slaughter and the sale of horse meat that caused that drop, it was the fault of big businesses who compromised the quality of their products and then proceeded to mis-label them.
> 
> It's no different than when we have an outbreak of salmonella or e-coli here in the US. Whatever produce it happens to be found on (tomatoes, cantaloupe, jalapeños, lettuce, etc), then the sale of that particular produce fall off for a time because people are scared.


http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/mayorpaulabaconletter.pdf This should answer your question about how horse slaughter is bad for the economy. Browse through these pages, and that should help clear your mind.

I have a question... How does a pro-slaughter individual "rescue" horses from a kill buyer when, in their eyes, horse slaughter is humane? That's pretty contradictory if you ask me. In their eyes, isn't it good that these horses are going to slaughter? Why would you try and prevent that? 

Those horses aren't diamonds in the rough, they are just slaughter-bound horses who have been given care and attention, and it shows. A majority of their rescues from slaughter were young horses at the time of their rescue (under the age of 10). All of their horses at the rescue are sound at least for light riding. Many of them are fit for medium to heavy work. All of their horses are either trained, or capable of being ridden (some are too young and haven't begun training yet). According to a USDA study, 92% of horses sent to slaughter are in good condition. These aren't sick, lame, OR skinny horses. The "bleeding-heart" rescues don't have to be the only ones getting horses bound for slaughter. If people just realized the potential money from training previously slaughter-bound horses (yes, I have done the research and have spoken with multiple owners of previously slaughter-bound horses), then we wouldn't have the issue. The truth is, the old, sick, and injured horses don't go to slaughter. In fact, horses who are unable to bear weight on all four legs, or who are blind in both eyes aren't even allowed to go to slaughter.

I have a life and I am tired of arguing with closed-minded individuals who obviously have financial gain from slaughter. You are unable to see truth that is shoved in your face. Meanwhile, I will continue my research, and try my best to refute the propaganda and lies put forth by pro-slaughter individuals who care for nothing except the money they can put in their pockets. Just run to Slaughterhouse Sue for your information.


----------



## demonwolfmoon

Allegro said:


> *I have a life and I am tired of arguing with closed-minded individuals* ...you are unable to see truth that is shoved in your face.
> 
> Meanwhile, I will continue my research, and try my best to refute the propaganda and lies put forth by pro-slaughter individuals who care for nothing except the money they can put in their pockets. Just run to Slaughterhouse Sue for your information.


1) First part I agree with, but not to who you pointed it at...you may want to consider your own words with a mirror pointed at your face

2) Wow, "slaughterhouse sue"...who are you talking about??? That's just completely and utterly offensive, rude nonsense.


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## Shoebox

Allegro said:


> I have a life and I am tired of arguing with closed-minded individuals


The irony.

I have been around periodically in this thread and I've learned tons. A lot of the stuff posted is very new to me... But I have not changed my mind. If anything, it's confirmed my opinion. I'm not necessarily pro slaughter but I see it as a necessity and a possible gain for the country, if not for the welfare of horses in general. Whatever you say, 100,000 extra unslaughtered horses per year is GOING to add up. It WILL be too many, even if every single one of them is a show winner. Not everybody can take in a horse, and slaughter is the more humane option to dumping them.

I would totally eat horsemeat. I bet it would be cheaper. I would buy dog food with horsemeat in it too. It's just life. Too many horses, not enough people. We can't all rescue 70 horses.

And with that, I'm out.


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## MissColors

Shoebox said:


> The irony.
> 
> I have been around periodically in this thread and I've learned tons. A lot of the stuff posted is very new to me... But I have not changed my mind. If anything, it's confirmed my opinion. I'm not necessarily pro slaughter but I see it as a necessity and a possible gain for the country, if not for the welfare of horses in general. Whatever you say, 100,000 extra unslaughtered horses per year is GOING to add up. It WILL be too many, even if every single one of them is a show winner. Not everybody can take in a horse, and slaughter is the more humane option to dumping them.
> 
> I would totally eat horsemeat. I bet it would be cheaper. I would buy dog food with horsemeat in it too. It's just life. Too many horses, not enough people. We can't all rescue 70 horses.
> 
> And with that, I'm out.


Agreed. 

I will raise horses for slaughter one day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee

MissColors said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I will raise horses for slaughter one day.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You would probably find raising beef cattle more profitable. The Europeans have been raising horses for meat for years but quality horsemeat is no cheaper to produce than beef - usually more expensive as farmers get subsidies to keep prices down.
The only sort of horsemeat thats 'cheap' is from older stock, usually a waste bi-product of the 'pet horse' industry and they are the ones that have ended up in the processed meals or they go into dog food or cat food. 
Now that they've closed the door on it being passed off as beef the EU has more horsemeat than it knows what to do with, even Russia is talking of stopping its trade with the EU because it doesn't want it - they are urging their people to buy home produced beef


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## COWCHICK77

Allegro said:


> http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/mayorpaulabaconletter.pdf This should answer your question about how horse slaughter is bad for the economy. Browse through these pages, and that should help clear your mind.
> 
> I have a question... How does a pro-slaughter individual "rescue" horses from a kill buyer when, in their eyes, horse slaughter is humane? That's pretty contradictory if you ask me. In their eyes, isn't it good that these horses are going to slaughter? Why would you try and prevent that?
> 
> *No preventing about it, it is simple economics.
> You create demand with higher prices.
> *
> Those horses aren't diamonds in the rough, they are just slaughter-bound horses who have been given care and attention, and it shows. A majority of their rescues from slaughter were young horses at the time of their rescue (under the age of 10). All of their horses at the rescue are sound at least for light riding. Many of them are fit for medium to heavy work. All of their horses are either trained, or capable of being ridden (some are too young and haven't begun training yet). According to a USDA study, 92% of horses sent to slaughter are in good condition. These aren't sick, lame, OR skinny horses. The "bleeding-heart" rescues don't have to be the only ones getting horses bound for slaughter. If people just realized the potential money from training previously slaughter-bound horses (yes, I have done the research and have spoken with multiple owners of previously slaughter-bound horses), then we wouldn't have the issue. The truth is, the old, sick, and injured horses don't go to slaughter. In fact, horses who are unable to bear weight on all four legs, or who are blind in both eyes aren't even allowed to go to slaughter.
> 
> *Yes, injured horses go to the kill pen and where else would you suggest they go???
> YES, we see the potential in auction horses!!!* *Again, only if the horse market makes it worth while to buy, feed, train and resell! But with horses prices low, the demand for horses is low and the cost of feed high it is not cost effective. *
> *Again, see my response to the above paragragh.*
> 
> I have a life and I am tired of arguing with closed-minded individuals who obviously have financial gain from slaughter. You are unable to see truth that is shoved in your face. Meanwhile, I will continue my research, and try my best to refute the propaganda and lies put forth by pro-slaughter individuals who care for nothing except the money they can put in their pockets. Just run to Slaughterhouse Sue for your information.


*I am not even sure how to respond to this, but I will say that the pro-slaughter people that have responded in this thread have real-life experience with horse auctions, the horse industry and horse slaughter for human consumption(over seas) and yet all I see from you are links to the internet and one experience working at a horse rescue. No one here linked any info from "Slaughterhouse Sue", again that tells me that all your information comes from a Google search rather than seeing it first hand and having your livelyhood depend on the livestock industry.

*


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## Cherie

Everything you say, Allegro, only proves how little you know about horses and the horse industry as a whole. If you spent your time talking to people in the industry that have spent their entire lifetimes loving horses and working in the horse industry full-time, you would get the REAL story. All you have done is spend your time on the internet and then repeat -- like a Myna bird - every anti-slaughter argument put forth by the very radicals that want to end all livestock and pet breeding, ownership and use. 

You ask how I can be pro-slaughter. It is very easy. I ask "how you cannot be pro-slaughter if you really love horses?" Everything you do insures that they will still be slaughtered only will have to endure a 1500 mile trip on top of it and be slaughtered where there are no standards for humane treatment.

Do you really think that all of us here have given our entire lives to better horse training and care because we hate horses? Do you really think the members of the AVMA and the AAEP that are pro-slaughter went to college for years and have worked tirelessly day and night for years because they hate horses? Do you really think that all of the 'Country Vets' that are 'pro-slaughter' hate horses? I have not met a single Vet with a mixed practice out in the country that is not 'strongly pro-slaughter'. Do you really think they spent 7 or 8 years in college, owe huge debts when they graduated, work for a fraction of what other Vets make, work all hours of the day and night trying to save a horse or a cow or a farm-dog hit by a car because they hate animals -- horses in particular? 

Why do I specify 'country Vets'? Because, unlike 'city Vets' that have small animal practices and huge equine Vet Centers that have elite show and race horse practices, 'country Vets' with mixed practices have a poorer clientele that includes ranchers, small town and rural clients; Their practice includes thousands of recreation animal owners with pets and recreational horses. These people own a lot of horses that are worth less money than the high-end 'elite' show horses and the owners have a lot less money than the owners that take their horses to the high priced equine centers. These are the horses that have suffered the most from the decline in value that came with closing the American Slaughter houses. They include a lot of week-end ropers, penners, trail riders, 4-H and FFA participants, gymkhana, open show and playday participants, back-yard trainers with day jobs (some are pretty good trainers but do not train for a living), and other clients of more modest means. 

Every one of the 'country Vets' I know (and I know many with more than 50 years in the horse industry) ALL are strongly pro-slaughter. Not one of them (or I) like slaughter and most of them (and I) would not send any of our own horses to slaughter, but the lack of a slaughter option and the corresponding drop in low-end horse values that came with the closing of the 'close' slaughter plants, has been a disaster for the health, care and well-being of all of these lower end horses. 

IF YOU ACTUALLY TOOK THE TIME AND TROUBLE to go talk to some of these country Vets, you would be told how the care and quality of life of these lower end horses dropped when they lost their value. Vets often do not even get called out any more for injured or sick horses. [We see this all of the time right here on these very forums.] Many low-income horse owners will not put a $300.00 Vet bill in a $100.00 horse that they can replace for $200.00 or $300.00. Thousands of horses just have to 'live or die' on their own because they are no longer worth the Vet bill. The Vet in Stratford, OK, a very good friend, had his horse income drop by more than 75% when the horse values took their nose-dive. I have talked to many country Vets about it and they all have said the horse portion of their practice dropped by as much as 90% with the value drop. This 'unintended consequence' is very real. Just go around and talk to them. The horse business dropped so drastically at the Ada Vet Clinic (where my old Vet retired from) that he retired and their other large animal Vets went to 'farm animals' only and they did not replace him. The clinic quit doing horses completely. When slaughter prices were high (around $1000.00 for a fat horse) all of these lower end horses were well-fed and cared for because they had value. If a lameness did not get better, the horse was well-fed and cared for until it got better or it was decided that it needed to be sold. The 'salvage value' of horses, just like the salvage value of non-productive cattle, helps keep livestock owners in the business and helps provide feed and care for the others.

It is not about our 'greed' or people wanting to raise more horses because slaughter is available. It is about quality and value and marketability of our good horses. [These opinions alone tell me you have never been in or even 'close' to the industry.] I have never met the breeder or horse owner that wanted any horse they bred or raised to go to slaughter. Horses could not be raised for slaughter price when prices were high. It costs anywhere from 3 to 10 times the slaughter price to raise a horse to 'slaughter weight'. Horse are raised with great hopes and expectations or with total and complete ignorance. Those owners that are that ignorant, will always breed and raise them and not care for their fugly mutt just because they are that ignorant. You can't fix stupid and you are never going to stop them from breeding their Arabiloosafino to a Gypsy because the spots and feathers are so 'cool'. [How many people would breed their fugly grade mare to a Friesian stallion or a Gypsy if they did not have those cool feathers? These are real knowledgeable serious breeders -- well -- maybe not. And you know what? They are going to keep right on breeding those useless fugly suckers. 

YOU and people like you have done more to cause lower end horses more pain and suffering than any abusive owners. YOU and people like you are directly responsible for horses having to be hauled thousands of miles to a very questionable end. YOU and people like you have the blood and misery of all of the horses now being hauled to Mexico and Canada instead of having well-managed and well-regulated processing available in many places here in the US where it belongs.

You use Kauffman, TX as a reason to not have slaughter. Have you seen one single person here defend that horrible place? I have not seen it. It was poorly run, poorly managed and had no oversight and no rules. The answer is NOT to eliminate processing in the US. The answer is to set it up right and insure that rules are established and followed -- like 'Slaughterhouse Sue' wants to do. You should be helping her instead of repeating the lies of the Animal rights nuts that want to stop all pet and animal ownership and use. 

Finally, stopping slaughter completely is unobtainable. To try to stop it is only going to play into the hands of the animal rights nuts that will have to stop all breeding and ownership in order to stop slaughter. That is exactly what you are helping them do -- whether you are smart enough to know it or not. You cannot stop water from running downhill! That is exactly what stopping slaughter is like.

Just 'replace' slaughter houses in your argument with salvage yards. Let's say you decide salvage yards are ugly and need to be done away with. Never mind, there are still going to be vehicles that get old, get wrecked or quit running that now have no place to be sold (or even given away). They aren't going to quit 'dying'. They are just not going to have any place to be taken and stripped of usable parts or reprocessed for the steel in them. Soon, there will be junk cars in everyone's backyard. Then, the people that need a place to get rid of them will just pull the tags off and abandon them on some back street or field out of sight. They will just have to 'rust down' to get completely rid of them. Gee -- it looks a whole lot like what you and those like you have done to the horse industry, doesn't it?


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## Gremmy

I'll never understand why people think that the solution to ignorant/abusive owners and breeding horses that shouldn't be bred, is to remove the outlet for these horses to have a quick end with minimal suffering (compared to what they experience now!). You don't cap a leak without stopping the flow first :?


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## HalfAHaffie

=Joe4d;2106729]I think I wanna move to OK, cant you drop off your brats at a hospital up to about age 17 ?[/QUOTE]
I Need To Look Into This... I Have A 13 Year Old Son That Might Want A Hospital Tour. Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha

"YOU and people like you have done more to cause lower end horses more pain and suffering than any abusive owners. YOU and people like you are directly responsible for horses having to be hauled thousands of miles to a very questionable end. YOU and people like you have the blood and misery of all of the horses now being hauled to Mexico and Canada instead of having well-managed and well-regulated processing available in many places here in the US where it belongs."


I'm one of those "YOU PEOPLE" you want to blame for all neglect, misery & torture of horses. I'm anti-slaughter but I don't try to stop you from dumping your garbage where ever or however you want.
Even if there were slaughter houses every 5 miles all across the USA production line killing of horses would still not be humane due to their very nature. 
All the regulations in the World can not stop the individual horse from having it's last moments from being terrifying. You do what you want with your horses but how dare you say that I am responsible for yours or any one else's actions. I work my *** off to keep my horses happy & healthy right to the end of their lives & I'll be there when their end comes.

Starvation, neglect, loading a crippled horse onto a kill truck or whatever awful means people use dispose of their horse because it no longer suits their needs & could make a few bucks has never & will never be an option for me.

I take care of my own & won't be made to feel guilty for not cleaning up other's messes. I have no blood on my hands & I fully resent you saying there is. 

Having a debate & discussion is one thing but you've crossed the line placing blame where there is none. Belittling people who have compassion is just mean. It takes a lot to **** me off but your above statements managed to do that.

Allegro, don't let anyone give you a cold heart.

Natisha~ signing off this forum.


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## smrobs

Allegro said:


> http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/mayorpaulabaconletter.pdf This should answer your question about how horse slaughter is bad for the economy. Browse through these pages, and that should help clear your mind.
> 
> Okay, so that was one town's experience with one slaughterhouse from before, when there wasn't enough funding for adequate facilities and monitoring.
> 
> I have an idea... my local McDonald's is utterly horrible. They are fairly well known for causing food poisoning, their restaurant is filthy, the staff is underpaid and constantly understaffed, and the management treats the staff like crap. That *must* justify the idea that all McD's everywhere should be closed down, right?:lol:
> 
> I have a question... How does a pro-slaughter individual "rescue" horses from a kill buyer when, in their eyes, horse slaughter is humane? That's pretty contradictory if you ask me. In their eyes, isn't it good that these horses are going to slaughter? Why would you try and prevent that?
> 
> I don't quite understand your reasoning here. It has nothing to do with whether we believe the slaughter process is humane or not. Rescuing a horse from a kill buyer means that the horse is no longer on the road to death, it's as simple as that.
> 
> Those horses aren't diamonds in the rough, they are just slaughter-bound horses who have been given care and attention, and it shows. A majority of their rescues from slaughter were young horses at the time of their rescue (under the age of 10). All of their horses at the rescue are sound at least for light riding. Many of them are fit for medium to heavy work. All of their horses are either trained, or capable of being ridden (some are too young and haven't begun training yet). According to a USDA study, 92% of horses sent to slaughter are in good condition. These aren't sick, lame, OR skinny horses.
> 
> I guess you go to different auctions than I do. While there are some nice horses that get bought up by the meat man when there is no other bid, there is a much larger portion bought by the killer that has clearly never been handled, they are obviously lame/sick, or they have apparent behavioral issues.
> 
> The "bleeding-heart" rescues don't have to be the only ones getting horses bound for slaughter. If people just realized the potential money from training previously slaughter-bound horses (yes, I have done the research and have spoken with multiple owners of previously slaughter-bound horses), then we wouldn't have the issue. The truth is, the old, sick, and injured horses don't go to slaughter. In fact, horses who are unable to bear weight on all four legs, or who are blind in both eyes aren't even allowed to go to slaughter.
> 
> With the horse market like it is, there is absolutely *zero* money in trying to re-train and sell horses. Not only are the feed prices astronomical (I'm currently paying over $200 a ton for grass hay and I can't find any alfalfa for under $350 a ton...that's a lot when you're feeding nearly 20 head), but there is no market for them after they are trained. Look around CL pretty much anywhere in the country right now. Horses that are green broke are a dime a dozen...and those are the ones that are well bred with papers. Grade horses that are green broke are being given away for free so I ask you; after spending 30-60+ days feeding and training this horse at a personal cost of $700-$1500+ dollars, where is the profit when I can't find a buyer for him priced at $200?
> 
> During the peak of the drought down here last summer, I had people calling me almost daily asking if I wanted a free horse or 10 or if I knew anyone looking to buy a good horse for cheap. Some of these people basically begged me to take their horses because they couldn't feed them and there were no buyers. It's still this way, though folks don't call as often now because their horses either got shipped to auction or died in the field.
> 
> I have a life and I am tired of arguing with closed-minded individuals who obviously have financial gain from slaughter. You are unable to see truth that is shoved in your face. Meanwhile, I will continue my research, and try my best to refute the propaganda and lies put forth by pro-slaughter individuals who care for nothing except the money they can put in their pockets. Just run to Slaughterhouse Sue for your information.


LOL, wow , hypocrisy much? I'm not sure where you gleaned the idea that any of us are gaining profit from horse slaughter:?. The horses I have, the horses I raise and keep end up laid to rest in my pasture when their time is done, worthy of a member of the family...which they are. I don't raise horses for slaughter, I don't train horses for slaughter, I actually do my damnedest to _keep_ any horses from my place from going to the killers by giving them proper training and keeping them valuable.

You say it's propaganda, but how can that be true when I'm _living_ it. I don't get my info from random places on the internet, I actually see it in real life every...single...day.

Anyway, Pot, I think this kettle is going to try to stay away from this thread now.

But no promises :twisted:.


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## Cherie

I never said anyone 'intended' to cause misery and suffering. That is why the results of stopping regulated processing in the US are called 'the unitended consequences' of stopping US processing. 

When the HSUS and the animal rights nuts were just 'trying' to stop US processing about 10 years ago, the AVMA and the AAEP warned of the unintended consequences. They warned that there would always be unwanted horses and they were always going to have to be processed to get rid of the 100,000+ number of them that are unwanted by anyone else every single year. Mind you, this was well before the economy went South and this was when prospects were selling for $2500.00 and up and every ridable and usable horse was marketable.

They warned that what would happen would be a great loss of value of lower end horses and that horses would have to endure 1500 mile plus trips and that lower end horse care would and lower end horses would suffer because of it. And they were absolutely right.

So, yes, admit it or not -- horses are cared for much less and those that no one else wants DO have to endure a 1500 mile trip that they should not have to endure. They are processed in lower quality plants that have little over-sight or rules.

I cannot imagine that anyone the loves and cares for horses would rather see what is happening than to help make plants available in the U.S.

And YES! Horses can be processed humanely. They have been doing it for centuries in Iceland. The local plant in East Denver that I regularly bought (I guess I should call it 'rescued) horses from as a teen processed horses one day a week. Horses just walked right into the box and stood there when they were shot or ?? they did back then. (It sounded like a gun.) I never went in the room, but the horses just stood there waiting for their turn to go in. I bought probably 25 or 30 horses from them. About half had to go back because they were not sound or healthy. I and several other people, regularly bought horses form them. They charged what they paid for them plus $10.00 way back then. Most cost me $65.00 to $80.00. They were bringing $.70 a pound back then. I bought them to train and resell. So, do not tell me that they cannot be processed humanely. What I saw was a lot more humane than any 1500 mile trip to Mexico where there are no rules or standards.


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## BornToRun

Allegro said:


> I have a question... How does a pro-slaughter individual "rescue" horses from a kill buyer when, in their eyes, horse slaughter is humane? That's pretty contradictory if you ask me. In their eyes, isn't it good that these horses are going to slaughter? Why would you try and prevent that?
> 
> Those horses aren't diamonds in the rough, they are just slaughter-bound horses who have been given care and attention, and it shows. A majority of their rescues from slaughter were young horses at the time of their rescue (under the age of 10). All of their horses at the rescue are sound at least for light riding. Many of them are fit for medium to heavy work. All of their horses are either trained, or capable of being ridden (some are too young and haven't begun training yet). According to a USDA study, 92% of horses sent to slaughter are in good condition. These aren't sick, lame, OR skinny horses. The "bleeding-heart" rescues don't have to be the only ones getting horses bound for slaughter. If people just realized the potential money from training previously slaughter-bound horses (yes, I have done the research and have spoken with multiple owners of previously slaughter-bound horses), then we wouldn't have the issue. The truth is, the old, sick, and injured horses don't go to slaughter. In fact, horses who are unable to bear weight on all four legs, or who are blind in both eyes aren't even allowed to go to slaughter.


I told myself I wasn't going to get involved with this thread, but THIS irked me. 

Just because we're pro slaughter does NOT mean that we can't rescue slaughter bound horses. There has to be an outlet for all of these "unwanted" horses. Otherwise, where would we put them all? There simply isn't enough interest in the horse economy for every horse to be rescued. Do YOU want to look after them all? A horse is a potential thirty year commitment, and with the amount of horses there are in the world, people can't afford to look after THAT many horses. 



> According to a USDA study, 92% of horses sent to slaughter are in good condition. These aren't sick, lame, OR skinny horses.


Well, sorry to tell you, but the USDA is misinformed. How often do you hang around the slaughter houses? ANY horse goes. Just because you look at a young horse and it _appears_ to be healthy, doesn't mean that there aren't fatal underlying issues. I can't tell you how many horses being rescued from Greely, Olex and Camelot have been reported to have health issues, a few have died or been euthed.

Here in Ontario the price of hay is very expensive and people can no longer afford to keep their horses, and no one can afford to buy, therefore no horses are being sold. What would you have done with all of the horses that people can't sell. For a lot of these people slaughter is becoming the only option, that doesn't make them bad people. 

We're simply at a point in time where it is becoming very difficult to own horses. If you want to find a fix to these problem, then I say have at, but I'm telling you right now, eliminating the slaughter houses will make it one hundred times worse.


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## horsecrazygirl

There isn't enough homes for all the unwanted horses out there. Its way more merciful to kill the horse quickly then letting it starve. That would be a slow and extremely painful death. All of us who are pro slaughter are because we see the whole problem. Not just bits of it. Its called tough love. We gotta do what we gotta do. Its not pretty, but its whats necessary.


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## BornToRun

This is one of the mare's I rescued from slaughter two years ago. Just a comparison of how she looked a couple months after she arrived at the farm and what she looks now. How dare I, a slaughter advocate, rescue a horse from slaughter? How contradictory of me. Just to prove to you that pro slaughter people aren't as heartless and contradictory as you think.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

I live in Oklahoma and I am pro slaughter 100%. All I see is unwanted horses being sold for nothing or given away or starving because the owner can no longer care for the horse(s) and they can't sell or give away the horse. There's also like previously stated there is no bottom. Horses that would of been 1-2 thousand dollars are now 3-5 hundred dollars. Horses have hardly any value while the cost of feed and care rises. Horses having a set value is benificial to the owner as it makes the horse worth while to own as a financial asset not a financial loss. I get that like with other domesticated animals there is are animals being bred that shouldn't and people breeding animals they shouldn't. I've actually said there should be a liscense for breeding animals, not just horses, commercially I think that would stop the a lot of problem at its source, but there is no such law at the moment. So that means the problems must be resolved at its result and I think humane slaughter is the best solution. I just don't understand how you don't realize that just cause the slaughter house is gone you think you've done these horses any favors. The anti slaughter crowd has not saved the horses, instead of a quick death they're left to starve to death. These horses are my own personal examples. This horse was left tied to a tree because the owner no longer had a place to keep him starving from lack of grazing and calories. He tried to sell him for months and even tried to give him away, and I offered to take him in if e fed him because I couldn't stand him wasting away. It took me 6 months to put normal weight on him. How is this more humane? Normally he would of just been sent through at an auction way before it got to this point.









I'm trying to help save a starving colt with the humane society but its unbelievable how many more horses that have had to be rescued from starvation and abandonment because people have nowhere else to take them.








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## Cherie

Did you read the paper or see the TV story last week? They found 64 starving horses and 30 dead ones in a back pasture near Seminole, OK. Some woman got most of them for free to 'rescue' them, only she could not get donations to feed them so they starved to death or nearly to death. Here is that story.dead and starving horses oklahoma | Gossipy

Here is another one - from last week -- a dead horse and 2 that had to be wuthanized and 2 others they are going to try to save. They were found in stalls with blankets on and nothing but skin and bone under the blankets. They were in a 'horse park' inside the OKC city limits. Dead, starving horses found at Oklahoma City horse park, police say - Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com

Even PETA, one of the most radical animal rights groups out there, has changed their minds and now say that slaughter is better than what is happening without it. I think the truly 'cold hearts' out there are the ones that stubbornly keep fighting against slaughter which results in so many stories like these. 

Where in Oklahoma were the emaciated horses in your photos from? It has gotten so commonplace that only the worst ones even make the newspapers or TV now.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

I didn't hear about that I must of missed that story about all those horses. Thanks for the link! They are from Tahlequah. The sorrel horse lived with me for 9 months and I fattened him back up and sold him to the mans ex wife she put him in a pasture down the road he is still looking great. But since she was willing to pay for him it showed me she had money to care for him and I recouped most if what I spent feeding him. I think I made her swear a hundred times to never let him get that way again lol. And the yearling is in a little country community outside tahlequah sitting in a trash filled lot with nothing to eat. He is so emaciated I don't know how he is standing. The sun kinda messed up that pic. He is just skin stretched over bone, no fat stores and running out of muscle fast. My heart really goes out to him since he still growing so his body is really hurting for calories. That colt is maybe a year old if that. I just don't know why they got the lil guy when they obviously don't have a safe place to put him and obviously don't have any means to take care of themselves well let alone an expensive horse. I'm thinking they didn't know what they were getting themselves into. I'd been by that place several times over the years and never saw a horse and then they got this colt one day. At one point it looked normal and then I go by the place again a few months later and its a bag of bones. Humane society is going out there today to see if they owner is willing to relinquish it. I offered to foster him for a bit if he got cleared for infectious diseases.

This is the same sorrel horse after just feeding him daily and proper care.








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