# Horse turns it back on me when he doesn’t want something done.



## Gypsycobprobs

My horse turns his bum on me. He has never kicked me and is the most genuine cob, but if I want to clip him or if I’m trying to wash his hair (tied up) he will squash me against the wall ( if I’m wall side) and turn his bum towards me. I regularly do ground work with him. Moving away from pressure etc. He does understand and does it when I ask him but ignores me when he doesn’t want me to do something. Is this purly him being rude and just telling me he would rather me not do that and throwing his weight around? What can I do in this circumstance ? I will bring his head back round and bum away and he do it again and again , yanking at the lead rope. 
TIA


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## Avna

Your horse is showing that he does not respect your authority and is taking charge. It is not "being rude" it is a dominance gesture horses use to other horses. This behavior often if not usually escalates if not addressed. 

You are correcting the wrong end. Take a long whip, stand back, and smack him in the butt, hard. Do NOT tap him. Stay well out of the way of his hind feet, as he may kick. Make sure he turns that head toward you before you let up. Repeat whenever he even slightly offers to show you his rear. Carry that whip with you whenever you work on the ground. 

If you don't feel you can do this safely, get someone experienced to help you. If you don't think you can do it all, you should consider whether you should be owning a horse. I am not saying this lightly.


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## horselovinguy

_*WELCOME to the Forum....*

_Your horse is showing you disrespect....like he has none for you.
Rude, yes you could also call it that but it is far more...

You need to do something different, a approach that is more dominant and that if he "squashes" you, you get after him and _immediately._
Start to carry a small sharp object...horse-shoe nail works great...next time he starts to squish you he gets jabbed, he meets that object and with enough force he finds it not pleasant and moves off...it will take a few times for him to stop when he associates squashing/crowding you with pain...
I would poke him in his side, along with a growl of "over" in a tone of authority...
A steel hoofpick tip end works too...
Use either like you mean it cause the horse does...he will hurt you if you don't stop this now.

Remember that every time you handle your horse you are teaching him what he can and can not do, what is tolerated and what is not.
It takes only one or tow times of "allowing" or you not correcting firmly for a new trick to appear...then those tricks get pushed more because that is what horses do..they test.
Your horse is testing you to see what you will do about his disrespectful behavior...
If he did this in a herd situation to another higher ranking, he would get his butt kicked or bit, literally and put in his place to show respect...
You need to do the same thing..._earn, demand the respect.

Remember to put some force behind what you do in action or vocal...
_Your horse is what...1200 pounds and you are 120 or so...
Far more effort by you for that horse to "feel" your discipline action and respond appropriately is needed...
Start to get firm and tough or you will get walked all over, disrespected and those add and = being injured and could be badly.
Good luck...
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## Spanish Rider

*Gypsy,*

I do not know your experience with horses, but Avna is correct: this is a problem that needs to be fixed before it gets out of hand.

Horses are herd animals that need to have an identified leader. This is true whether in a herd of horses or in a human-horse relationship, be it in the saddle or on the ground. If the horse feels that you the human are not acting as the leader, than he/she will step up and take the lead position. You need to be decisive in your immediate corrections of misbehavior, or he/she will take over, either as a defense mechanism ("well if you the human can't protect me, then I'll have to") or even in an agressive manner ("I am the boss!").

I would also first start with a whip. Make sure your horse sees it first before applying it. Horses who already know what whips are may heed the warning without needing to use it.

Let us know how it goes.


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## Gypsycobprobs

Thank you for your quick responses. 
I am an experienced horse owner and came on here for some advice, so thank you. 
I am capable of re teaching my horse and will now approach this differently to than what I previously have. 
Will let you know how it goes.


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## horselovinguy

Avna said:


> _You are correcting the wrong end. Take a long whip, stand back, and smack him in the butt, hard. Do NOT tap him. Stay well out of the way of his hind feet, as he may kick. Make sure he turns that head toward you before you let up. Repeat whenever he even slightly offers to show you his rear. Carry that whip with you whenever you work on the ground. _


I disagree that you need to whip a horse, smack a horse immediately in a discipline situation.
If you use a lesser approach and get the desired response of respect given...great.
If the situation does not change with correction, then escalate to a stronger approach used.

Like all things horse, you need to approach your horse with a solution to a situation that is fitting to your horses disposition. 
The biggest piece of this is your response to the butt turned is it must be instantly done...not grab and position a whip in your hand to strike, make a move away from the horse for strike range of the whip to contact...you just set yourself up for a kick in the gut or worse.
Your reaction took to long...
If you strike, hit, whip that butt though you better be prepared for a hoof to fly, the horse to fly backwards at you with hooves kicking and the entire situation to escalate in intensity real fast...
That horse has a reach of about 8 - 10 feet with hind leg extended in sudden force...:|
If close to the horse you get a bump...not the walloping power of anger unleashed if he strikes out, and there is no way of knowing his reaction taken...
You _may_ need to resort to that intensity, but I would far rather start my way with a jab/poke unpleasantly felt than go to much and get a fight/reaction overboard and possibly making the horse more fearful or reactive in defense...
Only you know what is appropriate for your horses personality and your experience level to correct the situation.
_Be careful in what ever you do and remain safe._
:runninghorse2:....
_jmo..._


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## Avna

You are right, @horselovingguy. 

maybe the OP could start just by always holding a hoof pick while on the ground, and letting her horse lean into it instead of her.


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## Horsef

I’ve also seen people do this in the wall-squishing situation: carry a shortened broom stick and place it between the horse and the wall. If he tries to squish you he will run into the stick and no further explanations are necessary.


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## jaydee

Do you know where the horse came from?
A lot of gypsy cobs come from really rough places and some of the behavior that they exhibit is all part and parcel of that.
They've been treated hard so then can try to take advantage of anyone they think is a pushover but on the other hand they can also be very 'defensive aggressive' when you try to put them in their place too forcefully.
If you're going to use any sort of physical means to teach the horse a lesson please be careful you don't end up being hurt - if the horse tries to crush you against the wall to avoid being clipped it will possibly try even harder to do it if you stick a hoofpick (or similar) in its side.
Its safer to untie him and make him move that back end around while you're at his shoulder and can bring his front end sharply around if he tries to step over towards the wall. Have him in a bridle, you'll have more control.


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## QtrBel

If he is tied and you lay into him - not only would hooves likely fly but he could set back on that halter and break something. Is he in a tie stall that is narrow or box stall? I assume the wash rack is open at least on two sides? You couldn't get after him in a tie stall without doing like HLG (I think) said and that is too much time between action and reaction. Hoof pic or broom handle. If he is serious about this though a hoof pick may mean a sudden shift into the pressure to heck with the typical response and behavior that dictates move away. In a tie stall my advise is get help from someone in person that is familiar with that set up.


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## george the mule

Heh; now you know where the term "Being A Horses ***" originates 

It _is_ a refusal gesture, sort of a mild Equine "F-you", but really it is a symptom of a larger problem more than a problem in it's own right.

It is something you will have to work thru, and AFAIK, there isn't a clear, easy fix. Until then, carry a hoof-pick or the like, and give him a non-acrimonious poke in the offending part of his anatomy when it comes too close. Try to avoid situations where the behavior might surface as well. Look into something like the Monty Roberts / Parelli "join-up" game as a starting point toward resolution, but don't expect it to happen overnight. 

'Bout all I can offer. Steve


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## jaydee

With a horse like this you always have to consider that the horse is, for some reason, defending himself because he's anticipating pain of some sort rather than just being obstructive because he simply doesn't want to be clipped or washed.
Not everyone uses positive reinforcement when they train horses - their first answer to everything is brute force and punishment and that will always leave some mental scarring on those horses.
I always think that looking for ways to prevent the situation happening is better than punishing the horse when you don't understand why its doing it.
Others have already suggested that washing or clipping the horse - or training the horse to be washed and clipped - would be better done in an open space where it and you have got room to feel safe and be safe but the horse hasn't got so much space that he can bolt away. 
I never tie a horse that's not used to being clipped or washed - I prefer to hold them myself so I'm the one in control or have someone really experienced on the end of the rope if that's not possible.


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## m.of.bmbaf

In your case, I would say he is showing you disrespect, he has no respect for you. By smashing you he is entering your personal space, showing leadership towards you. But turning back to you can mean multiple things: ''I don't feel like cooperating'' or ''You're the boss I give in'' But in your case I think he is just showing your disrespect.

You have to do something about it, if you want to learn his trust and respect you must NEVER hurt him or punish him. If he turns around and leaves when he is supposed to do something, you should walk to another side of the paddock/stable and wait for him to come back, then you can start again. But if he is trying to bite, kick or walk in your space, apply any type of pressure, like if he enters your space, push him and push him just enough to make him feel uncomfortable, do it till he moves away from you and praise him, if he bites you, lift your hands in the air and use 3 seconds to make some noise and grab his attention, if he kicks, he has a special reason for that only you can find out.


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## SteadyOn

Horsegirlxxx said:


> If he turns around and leaves when he is supposed to do something, you should walk to another side of the paddock/stable and wait for him to come back, then you can start again.


This sounds like a great way to make sure the horse walks away EVERY time you want to do something with him. "Oh cool, if I turn my back and walk off she leaves me alone and I can chill out and do my thing. Awesome!"


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## Golden Horse

SteadyOn said:


> This sounds like a great way to make sure the horse walks away EVERY time you want to do something with him. "Oh cool, if I turn my back and walk off she leaves me alone and I can chill out and do my thing. Awesome!"


You have smart horses to eh? 

I do not agree with hurting horses, I do though administer swift and direct punishment if needed. Today Fergie 'forgot' that if someone wants past in the aisle, and puts a hand on her side and says "over" you shift your hinney OVER.......so I gave her a sharp wack with the back of the Sleek Easy I was grooming her with, and said "OVER" she remembered quick smart.....


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## SteadyOn

Golden Horse said:


> You have smart horses to eh?
> 
> I do not agree with hurting horses, I do though administer swift and direct punishment if needed. Today Fergie 'forgot' that if someone wants past in the aisle, and puts a hand on her side and says "over" you shift your hinney OVER.......so I gave her a sharp wack with the back of the Sleek Easy I was grooming her with, and said "OVER" she remembered quick smart.....


Definitely! I think there's an important difference between "punishment" and "correction." I see punishment as being more about the human taking out anger for a horse's actions, and something that, for the horse, doesn't necessarily correlate at all, in its mind, with its actions. Correction on the other hand is swift, in DIRECT response to an undesired behaviour, and it's over as soon as it happens provided it gets a result.

I can, will, and do hit horses, HARD if needed, if their actions are serious and call for it. But it's always a correction for something specific, and if I miss the effective moment, I skip it, because doing it then would just be meaningless.


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## SilverMaple

Horsegirlxxx said:


> If he turns around and leaves when he is supposed to do something, you should walk to another side of the paddock/stable and wait for him to come back, then you can start again. But if he is trying to bite, kick or walk in your space, apply any type of pressure, like if he enters your space, push him and push him just enough to make him feel uncomfortable, do it till he moves away from you and praise him, if he bites you, lift your hands in the air and use 3 seconds to make some noise and grab his attention, if he kicks, he has a special reason for that only you can find out.


Ummm, this is a great way to train your horse that he never has to do anything... and that when he then resorts to dangerous behavior to get you to leave him alone, that you won't do anything about it. Pushing against a horse that enters your space encourages the horse to push back, and guess what? You'll get run over eventually and the horse has now learned to run people over to get his way. A horse that bites will not respond to you waving your hands in the air... getting after a horse effectively to stop a dangerous behavior is not cruel. A horse's bite, strike, or kick can maim or kill. If you respond in a namby pamby manner, you've just taught that horse to do that behavior again. 

OP, this horse is either protecting himself from what he perceives to be a threat, or he has zero respect for you. Do you have access to a round pen? That's a great way to establish yourself as the herd leader in this situation by controlling the horse's feet, and also where you can step up the pressure when he decides to turn his rear to you without being in harm's way. Be prepared in case this escalates. The quiet, laid-back type are often the ones that are shut down and dull until you wake them up, and then your calm, sweet horse decides to try to run you over or kick because he's upset that you're making him do something he'd rather not do. Handled correctly, you can fix this in a session or two. 

Do you have someone to work with you and show you how to be your horse's leader safely and effectively? You may want to work with a trainer if you don't. These issues are ones that tend not to crop up in horses handled by experienced people because they are dealt with before they start.


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## mmshiro

Golden Horse said:


> You have smart horses to eh?
> 
> I do not agree with hurting horses, I do though administer swift and direct punishment if needed. Today Fergie 'forgot' that if someone wants past in the aisle, and puts a hand on her side and says "over" you shift your hinney OVER.......so I gave her a sharp wack with the back of the Sleek Easy I was grooming her with, and said "OVER" she remembered quick smart.....


Every day I watch horses I get less convinced of the "they feel a fly in a storm" argument. Sensitivity isn't the same as pair threshold. Case in point: My mares front leg was itchy, and she went at the offending spot with her teeth. It looked as though she'd tear my skin of if she did that _to me_ with the same force, but to her it was just scratching an itch. I think your suddenly aggressive (or assertive?) body language, combined with your voice, made a bigger impression than the physical effect of the whack.

I am reluctant to be a disciplinarian, or "Type-A", etc., but I also believe that if I do have to punch a horse in the jaw for biting me (with purpose, that is, not just feeling some teeth), it probably hurts me more than them. So, "Boo-hoo!" 

Oh, speaking of punching horses - a funny story: My current lesson horse, a gorgeous grey OTTB mare, was checking me out thoroughly when I groomed her in a stable, and accidentally put her teeth on my chin. I grabbed her muzzle, and said, "No biting! If you do it again, I'll punch you!" – While she returned to exploring my face, I had my fist right next to her jaw...no further teeth-to-face contact occurred. 

Sometimes you just gotta reason with them, and, like with Galileo and the Church, show them the instruments.  Seriously, though, I think my grabbing her (gently - she didn't recoil, only lifted her head) by the nose and my change in demeanor was correction enough for her.


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## m.of.bmbaf

SilverMaple said:


> Ummm, this is a great way to train your horse that he never has to do anything... and that when he then resorts to dangerous behavior to get you to leave him alone, that you won't do anything about it. Pushing against a horse that enters your space encourages the horse to push back, and guess what? You'll get run over eventually and the horse has now learned to run people over to get his way. A horse that bites will not respond to you waving your hands in the air... getting after a horse effectively to stop a dangerous behavior is not cruel. A horse's bite, strike, or kick can maim or kill. If you respond in a namby pamby manner, you've just taught that horse to do that behavior again.
> 
> OP, this horse is either protecting himself from what he perceives to be a threat, or he has zero respect for you. Do you have access to a round pen? That's a great way to establish yourself as the herd leader in this situation by controlling the horse's feet, and also where you can step up the pressure when he decides to turn his rear to you without being in harm's way. Be prepared in case this escalates. The quiet, laid-back type are often the ones that are shut down and dull until you wake them up, and then your calm, sweet horse decides to try to run you over or kick because he's upset that you're making him do something he'd rather not do. Handled correctly, you can fix this in a session or two.
> 
> Do you have someone to work with you and show you how to be your horse's leader safely and effectively? You may want to work with a trainer if you don't. These issues are ones that tend not to crop up in horses handled by experienced people because they are dealt with before they start.


Know that you're pretty wrong, do you know there are people called Horse Whisperers, they do easily with horses. And it always works. Maybe some of us humans should try and be different then those who treat horses badly. If you can't I will.


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## m.of.bmbaf

SteadyOn said:


> Definitely! I think there's an important difference between "punishment" and "correction." I see punishment as being more about the human taking out anger for a horse's actions, and something that, for the horse, doesn't necessarily correlate at all, in its mind, with its actions. Correction on the other hand is swift, in DIRECT response to an undesired behaviour, and it's over as soon as it happens provided it gets a result.
> 
> I can, will, and do hit horses, HARD if needed, if their actions are serious and call for it. But it's always a correction for something specific, and if I miss the effective moment, I skip it, because doing it then would just be meaningless.


No, just correct them never punish them. Every horse owner should know that.


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## horselovinguy

Horsegirlxxx said:


> Know that you're pretty wrong, do you know there are people called Horse Whisperers, they do easily with horses. And it always works. Maybe some of us humans should try and be different then those who treat horses badly. If you can't I will.





Horsegirlxxx said:


> No, just correct them never punish them. Every horse owner should know that.


Many here know true horse whisperers...I do. 
I have also seen a horse whisperer have a "Come to Jesus" meeting with a horse, a time or two.
I've been involved with horses, personally and professionally probably longer than you are alive... 
There is a time to apply pressure, to retreat and to absolutely "punish" appropriately for actions committed or you will be dead, period.
To do this though you need experience, years of it that it is second nature, like breathing...you react and interact with subconscious not conscious thought to everything the animal does with or around you.


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## Dustbunny

If I had a horse who would push me into a wall, I would never groom in an enclosed space like that until I had the pushing issue solved. I'm not fond of tying in a small space either because should things go south for some reason you have no place to go.
I would do a lot of ground work just moving the horse around...shoulder, hind quarters, whatever. You can use a hoof pick, stick, blunt end of a crop, railroad spike to get your point across if need be. Teaching your horse to move with a tap and a "move over" is also good. And I would not let him ever turn around as long as you have a halter on him and a rope in your hand. If he starts to turn bring him back. Do not allow it, even if it takes 50 times. You control the situation.
Be patient and persistent. Good luck!


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## SilverMaple

Horsegirlxxx said:


> Know that you're pretty wrong, do you know there are people called Horse Whisperers, they do easily with horses. And it always works. Maybe some of us humans should try and be different then those who treat horses badly. If you can't I will.


Uh, ok. And anyone who knows me knows I am the LAST person to treat a horse badly, but I do handle my horses in such a way that they AND people who work around them are as safe as possible. That doesn't mean they are abused or treated badly, that means they are well-trained and handled correctly. To do otherwise is to do the horse a disservice and set him up for failure. 

Your posts speak like you are an idealistic young person whose heart is in the right place, but who has not yet had a dose of reality. It sounds like you are someone who loves horses but has minimal experience outside of one or two horses with some posts telling people you know what you're doing, and others asking questions that are very basic, like how to pick up a horse's hoof... from the standpoint of those of us who have been working with horses for many, many years, that doesn't make much sense. It takes decades of work to get a good grasp on horses as each is an individual. Even those who have spent a lifetime with horses are always learning, even the so-called 'horse whisperers'.... and most of them aren't doing anything magical. They are well-grounded in horsemanship and have found a system that works for them and have capitalized on it. Some of them are very good trainers. Some of them are, well, not so great once you see what they do in the background when nobody is watching, and how they treat the horses and staff behind closed doors.


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## george the mule

I love my Large Children, but they will assuredly get smacked if they step too far out of bounds. This morning, The Mare Mandolin got mad because I wouldn't let her push George off of his breakfast, and gave me The Butt, accompanied by a hint of a kick in my direction. This is _definitely_ Equus for "Screw-You, buddy".

She received a sharp slap on that big white butt, and a spoken "Go, Now!", coupled with a finger pointing in the direction of their full hay-feeder. She went, undoubtedly grumbling to herself.

However I have been Mandys sole caregiver for about five years, and we know each other fairly well; I knew she wasn't gonna kick me, and she knew it too; she was just expressing her frustration. However I would hesitate to offer that procedure to Everyman with AnyHorse, for obvious reasons.

In my experience, most horses are willing to please, most of the time, once they understand what is desired, and given that they know and trust their handler. But at the same time, Mr. Horse can become suddenly very resistive for any of a number of reasons; usually fairly transparent reasons, but not always. They are thinking sentient beings, just like you and I, and have good days, bad days, phobias, and peculiarities, just the same as we do. It becomes your responsibility to develop a relationship with your equine, and to develop your skills at understanding and communicating with them, and this simply takes time. And more time. And then even more time, 'cause just when you think you have it dialed, they will surprise you with something new.

This is, for me at least, a part of what makes horse ownership such an interesting (. . . searching for the right word . . .) Learning Experience.

Anyway, Google "Critical Thinking", and apply as necessary. Here on The Horse Forum, and most everywhere else in life as it turns out. My $.02, and undoubtedly worth every penny you paid for it 

Steve


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## Foxhunter

I always used a hoofpick when a horse liked to try and squash me. Easy to carry and if it starts to move into me I would use the pointed end against them. They soon move away from it and then a finger will be enough.


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## Foxhunter

Horsegirlxxx said:


> Know that you're pretty wrong, do you know there are people called Horse Whisperers, they do easily with horses. And it always works. Maybe some of us humans should try and be different then those who treat horses badly. If you can't I will.





Horsegirlxxx said:


> No, just correct them never punish them. Every horse owner should know that.


As for horse whisperers, yes they are out there. What makes them good is that they A) have experience B) have refined their method C) have perfected their timing to administering corrections. D) can read a horse and what it is about to do thus stopping anything before it gets out of hand. 

It takes many horses and years for hem to get to this position. 

As for not punishing a horse but just correcting, that depends on what the horse is doing. A horse that is attacking with intent to harm a human earns punishment for that action. A hard whiplash across the backside or chest is not going to cause as much harm as another horse kicking it with the same intention of getting it not to attack. 

Watch Clinton Anderson 'Running Scared' 'Once Bitten' or 'Blue In Your Face' and you will see that hard corrections are necessary to prevent serious injury.


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## SueC

I'm in the "minimal effective response" camp when it comes to these situations. Hoofpicks are great! ;-) I grew up drawn to the approaches of Ms Robbie Murray (_Training Australian Horses_) and Mr Tom Roberts (_Horse Control_ series), trained as a biologist and really recommend Ms Marthe Kiley-Worthington's _Horse Watch: What It Is To Be Equine_.

My current riding horse was straight off the harness track, just gelded at age 11, and had shocking ground manners (but an excellent work ethic) when I started re-educating him to saddle. He'd been kept in social isolation and had spent his "recreation time" in a sand yard with double electric fences between him and the rest of the world. He spent nights in a loose box with bars around it and went for anyone - human or horse - who ventured near his cage, biting over the bars, rolling his eyes, charging, the whole kit and caboodle. But if you came with a lead rope, he'd meet you at the door and hurry to the tie-down with you, eagerly anticipating some work. He had no time for pleasantries - his attitude was, "Get on with it, I want to work!" and he had a general _grrrrrrr_ disposition to the world, which he hadn't experienced as a pleasant place.

He was quick to understand the saddle training and very cooperative when I was on his back, but when I started with him he had a habit of doing a shark impersonation when I got off him at the end of a session - I'd be met on the dismount by bared teeth and a big gape in my face that had me looking down the tunnel of what looked like the inside of Jonah's whale. So what I simply did is to hold rein contact on the dismount until he was rid of the habit - that way he couldn't get his head around.

He was also the most ticklish horse I'd ever met and hated being groomed. I'm ticklish myself and I tried to make grooming as pleasant as I could for him - avoid aggravating his really ticklish spots and just dandy over those, and reserve the rubber curry-comb for the itchy spots he was discovering he had. If he did his shark impersonation in response to me hitting a ticklish spot, I was ready for him with the dandy brush, which I simply placed between his teeth. The surprise on his face was priceless. After a while it became: Him: "_Grrrrr_!" - Me: "Hey, want to hold this?" and he started holding things in his mouth when I offered them to him: Brushes, the riding crop, a stick, whatever - and I'd say, "Aren't you clever holding that?" and he started to look like a dog does when it retrieves a ball for you - happy and pleased with himself.

These days, he _loooooves_ being groomed and lines up for it, telling me where all his itchy spots are - and he loves to play "Can you hold this?" and variations on the theme, which have stayed with us after the regular shark impersonations faded away. The game is now a party trick he does for guests, and something to keep him and me entertained if I'm between two gates when we're out on trails, and walking beside him for that bit. He'll go, "Stick?" and immediately hold it when I pick one up for him. Then he'll offer it back to me and the way it goes is that I grab one end and go "_Grrrr_" and he pulls back, enjoying the game, just like my dog does when we play with her rope. I really enjoy this kind of added dimension to interacting with an animal, and if I had completely shut that side of him down I'd just have a service robot, which I wouldn't like at all. I've got a reliable working horse whose personality I can enjoy and who will bring his ideas to me.


Sue and Sunsmart - Red Moon Sanctuary, Redmond Western Australia by Brett and Sue Coulstock, on Flickr

He's a happy chappy now and great fun to work with, and I can put beginners on his back no worries at all. At our place he lives in a herd and free ranges, which is how I prefer to keep horses.

And always he loves to hold the sponge after I finish washing the sweat off his face post-ride. "Can I have it?"


Bathtime - Red Moon Sanctuary, Redmond Western Australia by Brett and Sue Coulstock, on Flickr

Anyone interested in free-ranging is welcome to visit my journal. In November we took in another late-cut stallion, this one socially isolated for 15 of his 17 years and as grumpy as Sunsmart used to be, with the same antics over fences and bars. He's discovered the world, and socialising, and is turning into a nice happy chappy. His first hour with the other horses (all late-cut stallions who used to be in solitary confinement and bored to tears and had never grazed in a wide-open field or run with a herd) is photographed here:

http://www.horseforum.com/member-jo...ys-other-people-479466/page39/#post1970517327


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## Dustbunny

SueC
Horses are not machines, are they? Not just equipment.
Your guy sounds like a very unhappy boy who got lucky...really lucky!!!!! : )


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## loosie

Love that last pic sue, big toothy grins from both!


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## SueC

loosie said:


> Love that last pic sue, big toothy grins from both!


You know what they say, @loosie - pets are like their owners! :rofl:


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## SueC

Dustbunny said:


> SueC
> Horses are not machines, are they? Not just equipment.


Exactly, @Dustbunny! Sentient critters filled with their own kind of intelligence, and with lots to teach us! Never a one-way street.

:falloff: :charge:


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## loosie

SueC said:


> You know what they say, @loosie - pets are like their owners! :rofl:


Yeah, I've been told more than once I laugh like a horse!:|


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## loosie

Horsegirlxxx said:


> No, just correct them never punish them. Every horse owner should know that.


'Every horse owner' also understands things according to their own experience & education. Which means they have different perceptions of terms. One of many sticking points with making blanket statements like that I feel. What YOU call 'just correction' I would probably call 'punishment'. Having an education in behavioural psychology, I see ANY undesirable/uncomfortable stimuli applied with the purpose of weakening a behaviour as 'positive punishment'. Eg. 'pressure/release' - the release bit is negative reinforcement(removal of something undesirable in order to strengthen a behaviour) but the initial pressure bit is positive punishment.

And I believe it would be incredibly helpful if every horse owner understood that. And the effects - direct or otherwise - of using different 'kinds' of reinforcement & punishment. IMO punishment - even used strongly - is not wrong or bad or such, and I really feel that people that say so do not fully understand the whole concept - or at least, have a quite different perception of the terms to me. But many _use_ it wrongly or badly. If people truly understood the concepts behind the terms, I don't think they'd say 'never' but they would also be using it seldomly - apart from in the case of 'pressure/release' and using a lot more positive reinforcement...


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## loosie

Horsegirlxxx said:


> If he turns around and leaves when he is supposed to do something, you should walk to another side of the paddock/stable and wait for him


Horses learn to do what works for them & quit doing what doesn't work. Simple as that. If the horse walks away from you because he doesn't want to be with you/do something, and you allow that to work for him - you quit asking, take any pressure off & remove yourself - _you are teaching him_ that he is 'right' to just leave whenever he doesn't want to 'play your games'.

I can see though, that it _could_ work, under certain conditions. *IF* this always works for you horsegirl, when you walk away the horse immediately comes back to you, I think you're not understanding the whole situation & discounting some of the important factors. Number one factor is that a horse that does that DOES want to stick to their human, for whatever reason. Perhaps they've been 'corrected' whenever they're not close(like 'horse whisperers' such as MR teach). Perhaps they're lonely or insecure or bored in their environment. Perhaps they have associated being close to the human with Good Stuff...


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## bsms

I'm coming here after seeing this thread referenced on @SueC's journal. Part of my response:

_"Tom Moates has a chapter where he points out that fences don't chase horses. A fence just is. The horse can hurt himself against it. Or not. And the horse learns, and can graze inches from a fence in total peace - because fences don't chase horses. It becomes the horse's choice. The fence just is. And it always is...

...[My Parents'] punishments were like a fence. Always ready, but entirely MY choice - because their fences didn't chase children.

I view bits this way, approaching from a western perspective. The bit is used to create a boundary. The horse is expected to control himself within those boundaries. Once the horse figures it out, then we can change speeds, turn, adjust speeds within a gait, etc, all without ever taking slack out of the reins.

*My parents' goal was to give me freedom, not constraint*. If I learned to control myself, I could play outside, roam for miles, and be fine - provided I headed back home at a certain time. We could go to nice restaurants, shows, etc.

My goal with my horse is to allow him a measure of freedom. He cannot free range. But if he controls himself, we can go out for long walks (riding), sometimes trot or canter, drop into washes, go off trail, explore - which Bandit seems to enjoy - and do so with both of us safe. And with very little use of reins, and without a crop, or kicking, or fuss, or stress. Together."
_


> "I use it sometimes to talk about firmness," Harry told me...That you can be really firm if there is the clarity and consistency. Then it is not troubling to the horse.
> 
> There is a very defined boundary where the electric fence is - I mean it is a visible thing, the horse knows exactly where it is. He knows if he stepped into it and got bit or not. He knows it never bit him unless he stepped into it. *His actions totally control the outcome*...The pressure didn't come into him. *The fence doesn't come across the field at a high run and shock him for no reason.*"
> 
> -- Further Along the Trail, Tom Moates


I find that helpful imagery in thinking about correction and punishment, with both horses and kids.


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