# My Gelding is mounting *sigh*



## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Since I got Nico 6 months ago, he has consistantly shown 'studdish' behavior. Head tossing, loving up on the girls, agressive behavior towards the other geldings. He has broken the fence several times to be with 'his' girls. I can't say I blame the poor fellow, the girls have sprayed into his stall several times and they have no interest in any of the other geldings. 

Up until today, none of us have ever witnessed him actually mounting a mare. He and dizzie were at it for about an hour. In total, he mounted her 5 times. Not to be graphic, but the last time he mounted her he did leave some ejaculate on her and on the floor. Dizzie is an old broodmare who was lookin for some action and she didn't move a muscle. As a matter of fact, she was chasing him down the first time...he took over from there. We got them seperated and Nico is now lovingly calling over the fence to her. 

Now when I mentioned this to the BO, she wasnt very concerned. Until she thought about it. Nico had been in a field with Danielle (a retired TB broodmare) for the first month that he was there. He was eventually moved to another field because he wouldnt let anyone (horse or human) near Danielle. Danielle is a notorious hard keeper who never puts on an ounce. She is a typical OTTB who loses weight as fast as she gains it, no matter what she is eating. Just recently, she has been putting on weight and keeping it. She is actually now almost fat. Im sure you can see where the BO is going with this. So here are my questions. Please excuse my ignorance on the breeding front. I have never had a desire to breed horses so I know very little about the process.

Is it possible that he is 'proud cut' or has a retained testicle? If so, what are the chances that he got one of the mares pregnant?

If Danielle is, in fact, pregnant how would we know. I know to call the vet but we are on an appointment schedule with the vet and she is due out in a month. While it is not an optimum situation, I hardly catagorize it as an emergency. 

If he was just a late geld (4) and a studdy behaving gelding, is there anything that he can take to help him? I've looked into a few herbal supplements but without any testimonials, its kinda hard to believe. 

I bought Nico as a gelding, look in his netherregions and everything. With that in mind, if either (or God forbid both!) mare is pregnant, am I financially responsible for the foal(s)? 

I am totally at my wits end and am not really sure what to do. Any advice is welcome.


----------



## AngelWithoutWings54 (May 24, 2010)

I guess it's possible, but I really wouldn't know. Maybe you should talk to your vet... I would call and ask them, even if they can't come out.


----------



## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Erm, I could be wrong on this, but I don't believe a gelded horse can ejaculate. I had a _very_ proud cut gelding a few years back, and he constantly mounted mares, but he never, ever ejaculated. The behavior is concerning, because, even if he doesn't exercise studdy behaviors when you are working with him, there is still the risk of harm to him or a less than obliging mare, not to mention the risk of STDs. My gelding ended up being stalled, and only turned out with geldings (he was fine under those circumstances, dominant, but not so much as to cause problems) and when I moved him home, he was only ever "with" my own mare, who I had already had tested for stds when I got her - after a failed breeding attempt to a less than desirable stallion (before I purchased her). She was very "obliging" so I tended to ignore the behavior.

Others on this forum would know more than me, I am sure - but I don't believe a gelded horse CAN ejaculate - the spermatic cord is traditionally crushed during gelding. So if you are seeing such physical traces - I'd get a vetr out ASAP both to test BOTH the mares, and examine your Nico - he might well be cryptorchid, and if that is the case, he can still impregnate mares.


----------



## MLP (May 17, 2010)

if the horse is ejaculating, then he is NOT a gelding. Geldings cannot ejaculate! I would say he is a rig and has an undecended testicle. Get the vet out, they will take blood and test it. Also would have the mares given PG, which will cause abortion if they have gotten pregnant.


----------



## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

As was said above, geldings CANNOT ejaculate. It's physically impossible. I would get a vet out ASAP and keep him away from other mares. I also hope that the owners of the mares he's already been with are understanding, good humored people...


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

With the risk of sounding completely stupid, would (some?) geldings be able to "shoot blanks" like a man with a vasectomy? (I.e. ejaculate fluids that do not contain sperm)


----------



## MLP (May 17, 2010)

JustDressageIt said:


> With the risk of sounding completely stupid, would (some?) geldings be able to "shoot blanks" like a man with a vasectomy? (I.e. ejaculate fluids that do not contain sperm)


NO. they need testicles to do that.


----------



## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

The vet is coming next week some time. For now, he is in a field with another gelding (who knows how to avoid him!) and wont have the opportunity to get near the mares. 

Indy, How did you find out that your gelding was proud cut? Did they just look or was there a blood test. I know that he was gelded pretty late and whether or not he was bred before he was gelded is unknown. This whole situation has me pretty paranoid about his breeder who said only that he was gelded late hoping to promote growth (he is QH and only matured to around 14.1) I am wondering now if a. He was gelded late because he threw solid colored foals (they 'specialize' in paint QH) or b. He never dropped the other teste and they had the vet do what he could in the field. 

Bright eyes, the owners of the mares are good friends of mine and though I would hope they would understand, I can see how they wouldnt. In both cases, abortion would be a major consideration. The TB mare that may be in foal (from an earlier romp) would be in a precarious situation because of considerable tearing with her last foal (hence her being retired) The other mare is of good age and breeding but I doubt a foal is what anyone wants right now. And while a cute lil bouncing baby that looks like my Nico would be amazing, its just not very practical. 

JDI, i've read conflicting reports on the shooting blanks thing. One article says no way. The other says that it is possible. Im sure you see why I am confused!

Thank you all for your input. It is certainly an eye opening experience that I hope will all wash away!


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

If he has a retained testicle he will still be sterile because the temperature in his body is too high for sperm to be viable. That is the purpose of the scrotum and why it descends and ascends with the temperature. As far as studdish behaviour while your handling him goes, if you don't like it don't put up with it regardless of gender.


----------



## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

The studdish behavior only goes on in the pasture. While he is what you would call high spirited, hes never been aggressive towards me or anyone else. My only concern is him breeding mares.


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I had a gelding that I know had both testicles removed because I saw the vet throw them to my dog and he would breed mares into his twenties. He was gelded when he was two but not until he had bred a mare once.


----------



## snoggle (Jun 13, 2009)

I'd bet cryptorchid - either both and someone just assumed he was gelded, or one and whoever gelded him didn't locate both testes (which is pretty irresponsible) and only removed one. A friend of mine bought a "hard to handle" gelding that turned out to be a cryptorchid, so it happens. Like Kevin said, he is almost definitely sterile, essentially "shooting blanks". Even though you are mostly concerned with breeding ability, rather than behavior, it is still best to remove the undescended testicle(s) because they are more likely to develop testicular cancer.

Good Luck!


----------



## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

corinowalk said:


> Indy, How did you find out that your gelding was proud cut? Did they just look or was there a blood test. I know that he was gelded pretty late and whether or not he was bred before he was gelded is unknown. This whole situation has me pretty paranoid about his breeder who said only that he was gelded late hoping to promote growth (he is QH and only matured to around 14.1) I am wondering now if a. He was gelded late because he threw solid colored foals (they 'specialize' in paint QH) or b. He never dropped the other teste and they had the vet do what he could in the field.


I guess I shouldn't have used the term "proud cut" because I don't know that that is true. Around here "proud cut" is more a colloquial term used to describe any gelding with excessively studdy behaviors, but really it's improper usage. The term is supposed to apply to incorrect gelding, when the spermatic cord is not also crushed. Twister had been used as a breeding stallion and gelded late - however I got all his medical records when I had purchased him and knew he had been gelded by a vet I know well and respect so I doubt the procedure was done incorrectly. He just retained behaviors - no doubt due to his late gelding.

My current gelding Claymore is the same in some ways - although he only rarely mounts the mares, he does frequently drop and hover around the girls when they are in heat. He was also used as a breeding stallion until age 6, I know he was gelded as that was one of the requirements I insisted upon before purchasing him, I got the vet records and he was still healing from his gelding when I got him.

I do not know about the assumption that a cryptorchid being unable to produce sperm - since cryptorchidism is an autosomal sex-linked recessive gene, (passed father to son) I assume SOME of them can still breed.


----------



## Juna (Apr 4, 2010)

I know that some cryptorchids can breed. Bey Shah was a cryptorchid and he had over a 1,000 foals.


----------



## Cowgirl140ty (Jan 7, 2010)

One of the breeders i know in my area. Kept a stud who was completley cryptorchid (both testes) in with her mares. Because she was told he was sterile. However... that stud now has 5 bouncing babies. So horses with cryptorchids can reproduce.


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Cowgirl140ty said:


> One of the breeders i know in my area. Kept a stud who was completley cryptorchid (both testes) in with her mares. Because she was told he was sterile. However... that stud now has 5 bouncing babies. So horses with cryptorchids can reproduce.


They must have had only one retained testicle because it is not possible for a horse with two retained testicles to settle a mare. If one testicle is descended then there can be enough viable sperm to get a mare in foal.

I could be wrong, there's a first time for everything.


----------



## EllaEnchanted (Dec 31, 2007)

When I bought my horse he was a colt and was over a year old with only one desended testie. So naturally I freaked out and read up about crypts. As far as I gathered from various sites and vet books, a crypt cannot breed unless one testicle is dropped. If the testicle is inside the body teperature kills the sperm, also horomone levels increase and crypts are usually worse mannered then studs. If your guy is a crypt its possibe to get the other testical easily if its at least semi dropped. When a colt drops a ring closes inside them so that the testies cannot go back into the body. If its on the other side of the ring he will have to have major surgery to remove it. Like someone else said, cancer is high risk as well as some other health issues if its left. It couldnt hurt to have the mares looked at just in case though, miracles happen. Even the unwanted ones ha ha. Best of luck!


----------



## Juna (Apr 4, 2010)

Yes, Bey Shah had one dropped testicle, the other one was up. I think you're right, EllaEnchanted about crypts.


----------



## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

Sometimes the term cryptorchid is used for one OR 2 testicles "up"-- the horse is either a bilateral crypt (one up) or a unilateral crypt (2 up). however it is more immediately descriptive to call a horse with only one "up" a monorchid. 

It SHOULD be impossbile for a unilateral crypt, or a horse who was a monorchid who has had the dropped testicle removed, to impregnate a mare. However that would depend on whether the remaining testicle is dropped enough to produce viable sperm.


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Juna said:


> Yes, Bey Shah had one dropped testicle, the other one was up. I think you're right, EllaEnchanted about crypts.


It's quite irresponsible to breed a cryptorchid as it is hereditary.


----------



## shesinthebarn (Aug 1, 2009)

There are a few standardbred studs who are crypt. Chocolatier is a good example - although before he entered the breeding shed he had accupuncture to drop the testicle. It worked and he now has full books every year. Accupuncture is a good method to get the testicle to descend - I've seen it work 3 or four times. Yes, it's hereditary but I guess some folks don't care!


----------



## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

When the BO talked to the vet today, the vet wasn't very concerned that he actually bred either mare. So she doesn't have to give either mare an exam, she is going to draw blood on Nico to check his testosterone level to see if it is even high enough to be producing sperm. She said she will give Dani a once over to see what she thinks (she knows the mare very well as Danis nickname is 'boo-boo-dani') and we will go from there. I have an email in to his breeder, who is now out of the business, to see if Nico was ever bred...accidentally or on purpose. I also asked him if the vet had anything significant to say about his gelding. The last time I emailed him to find out some info on my boy, it took him 6 weeks to get back to me and he replied with 'he was the second best horse Ive ever owned' what a big help eh?!? 

So now, more questions. If he is infact a cryto...whats next? Surgery? If he is proudcut...is there anything they can do? Ive read somewhere about regumate being used on studdish geldings...anyone have any experience with that? How about managing his field tendancies. Should he be cleared, can he be in with the mares? My-oh-my...why can't I go back to having a simple horse!


----------



## Cowgirl140ty (Jan 7, 2010)

Oh No.... these were both retained. It was a $5000 gelding. And the lady thought the same as you. Could never happen. Till her 5 riding mares were pregnant.


----------



## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

If he's a cryptorchid he'll need surgery, they have to go in through the flank and it's fairly involved surgery, unfortunately with a much bigger price tag. 

As far as if he's just proud cut. Using regumate with geldings, I've never heard of that. I am sure there are some hormonal treatments you can use - but I've not heard of regumate being used. Regumate is kind of fiddly stuff to work with - I probably wouldn't choose that option.

Ideally you'd just keep him pastured with geldings, since in the pasture is the only time he acts this way, or keep him only pastured with one or two mares you know to be "safe". (Assuming the mare owners don't have hang ups.)


----------



## snoggle (Jun 13, 2009)

Eastowest said:


> Sometimes the term cryptorchid is used for one OR 2 testicles "up"-- the horse is either a bilateral crypt (one up) or a unilateral crypt (2 up). however it is more immediately descriptive to call a horse with only one "up" a monorchid.
> 
> It SHOULD be impossbile for a unilateral crypt, or a horse who was a monorchid who has had the dropped testicle removed, to impregnate a mare. However that would depend on whether the remaining testicle is dropped enough to produce viable sperm.


 
I think you have the terminology backwards. Bilateral would be both up (bi means two) and unilateral would be one up (uni means one).


----------



## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

Yep, I sure did get it backwards, thanks. My brain was either ahead of or behind my typing fingers.... :shock:


----------



## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

If indeed he does have a retained testicle, he needs to have the surgery because he will always act like a stud and the problems that creates with everyday living.
We bought a beautiful 6 yr old Morgan gelding years ago, gelding being the key point. Because of his studdy behavior, we had a blood test done and he indeed had one testicle , he was gelded as a yearling but nobody said anything about only taking one testicle. After the blood test, we had the vet do the surgery, it was not particularly dangerous, he was done while in the stocks, standing and the incision was a small one in the flank. Testicle out, no more stud.... He did try to breed the mares, but never succeeded, his testicle was a "high flanker" and the sperm were not viable.
Get the blood test, if he does have a testicle, have it taken out for your safety and enjoyment of your horse and for him also.


----------



## Valentina (Jul 27, 2009)

Yes - he could have a testicle up inside his body cavity. Have the vet check his progesterone levels as IF he has a retained testicle he COULD sire a foal.

Years ago my gielfriends stallion was accused on impregnating a mare at the farm he was boarded. Funny thing was he never got loose not was found loose with that are at any time.

When the baby was born it was almost an exact duplicate in appearance to the gelding the mare was pastured with. So it was one coold fall day when gelding mounted mare and impregnanted her.

Once everyone figured things out the gelding had surgery and the other testicle removed. After the surgery he was MUCH better behaved.


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Indyhorse said:


> If he's a cryptorchid he'll need surgery, they have to go in through the flank and it's fairly involved surgery, unfortunately with a much bigger price tag.


Through the flank??

A colt of ours was just gelded on Thursday (5/27/10). The doctor went through the sheath area into the abdominal cavity.

$900.


----------



## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

A horse or dog that has an undecended testicle in the belly or abdomen can't produce viable sperm , they will not survive in the testicle, and the testicle is usually very very small and not normal.
If the horse or dog has one normal testicle, then he can produce sperm, but the testicle must be in the scrotum. Sure, he might be able to pull it up and bring it down especially when young because the inguinal ring might not have closed, but a horse with no testicles outside his body can't produce sperm, the testicle has to be outside the body to keep the sperm alive.
They can have an erection and breed, but the mare will not get pregnant.


----------



## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

mls said:


> Through the flank??
> 
> A colt of ours was just gelded on Thursday (5/27/10). The doctor went through the sheath area into the abdominal cavity.
> 
> $900.


If the "missing" testicle was passed through the first ring and into the inguinal canal and trapped there, then yes, they can go in through the sheath area, but if the horse's testicle never descended past the first "deep inguinal ring" and is still residing in the abdomen, it's typical to go in through the side to remove it. This is currently what is trying to be decided with my yearling colt Finn - his second testicle is in the canal - trying to decide to wait and see if it emerges or go ahead in after it.


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Indyhorse said:


> If the "missing" testicle was passed through the first ring and into the inguinal canal and trapped there, then yes, they can go in through the sheath area, but if the horse's testicle never descended past the first "deep inguinal ring" and is still residing in the abdomen, it's typical to go in through the side to remove it. This is currently what is trying to be decided with my yearling colt Finn - his second testicle is in the canal - trying to decide to wait and see if it emerges or go ahead in after it.


There was never any consideration of going through the flank. The undescended testicle was deep in the abdomen.


----------

