# Fear of fatal injury



## Finalcanter (Apr 15, 2013)

Well disclaimer, not fear as in a phobia- Id still ride. However I've been thinking about it a little. I know it's not too plausible for a horse to step square on you during a fall, but when I do fall (and tuck and roll), the thought comes up after the fact. 

If I'm in the stall dealing with a picky horse, I'm very weary. As I posted earlier, I'm a small person. Slender. I've fallen off and can usually bounce back up. But I think I'm starting to get a little mote nervous than usual. I mean I got bit on the side of stomach a day or two ago. Being slender, I thought had that horse really bit down, I could've seriously hurt the organs that reside there. Or if I got kicked, the likelyhood of it being serious to fatal is high for someone like me.. 

I haven't seen a thread on any horse forum taking about this fear- potentially dying. Like I said, it doesn't prevent me from riding or some ground work, but the thought is there. I could say the same about driving but you have some control. Fatal injury side, my bigger fear is a horse getting fresh or taking off at the canter. Speed and surprises don't mix well with me, but I guess that's a different issue.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

I have those exact same fears and thoughts around horses. Everything. All of the above.

Recently I've been a little less fearful though I can't exactly say why. But it's something that comes and goes to varying degrees. I expect I'll be that fearful again, and it won't necessarily be for any apparent reason.

Sometimes it does have to do with other stressors in my life. If I'm very tense and anxious about something unrelated, it brings up my base level of anxiety and makes me more prone to thinking up these elaborate scenarios where I get hurt in unlikely -- but technically possible -- ways.

I've come up with a few ways to think about it that are somewhat helpful.

I drive. It's technically possible that, coming around a curve, someone will be in my lane and hit me head-on at full speed. It COULD happen. But it's not likely, I don't think about it every time I drive, and it doesn't keep me from driving. So why do similar thoughts belong on a horse?

The other thing that's helped is to think about all the times things have gone well. And when I find myself picturing worst-case scenarios with this horrible what-ifs... I now try to change the narrative. What if everything goes perfectly fine and I have a great time? Based on how many hours I've ridden, and how many times nothing has gone wrong and I've enjoyed myself... or I've handled things just fine when they have gone wrong... what scenario should I actually be playing out in my mind? This approach has helped A LOT A LOT A LOT and lately I'm too busy picturing successful outcomes to spend a lot of thought and energy on unpredictable and highly unlikely scenarios that I couldn't prevent even if I did just worryworryworry about them.

Give this a watch:






Now, none of that is to say that you should act invincible. Practice the safest possible measures, and if you think a horse is TRULY likely to "go off" in any way that could hurt you, don't put yourself in that situation. But work on a positive self-narrative and pretty soon you'll be able to see more clearly what's actually a danger and what's just a VERY elaborate work of imagination.

In other words, don't do the horsey equivalent of these comics and you'll start feeling a lot better.  deep-dark-fears

Edit: linked to the wrong video


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

You mention three different scenarios -- falling off, getting bitten, and getting kicked.


Of the three, falling off is the most difficult to prevent. I have fallen off a lot of horses in my life, but at 64 I have NEVER been kicked or bitten. Maybe I'm just lucky.


You say you got bit on the side of your stomach. How did it happen? Is the horse a known biter? Did you have a preexisting relationship with that horse? Can you identify anything that might have contributed to the situation?


Generally speaking, a horse will bite either out of desperation due to fear or pain, or it is playing "who's in charge?" and is already pretty confident that she outranks whoever she bites. And you're right, that horse could have taken a chunk out of your body, but most horses don't bite very hard unless their first attempt is ignored.


Your physical size is not the issue. Stay away from dangerous horses and learn how to earn the respect of the rest and you will never be bitten again.


And if you don't want to die, wear a helmet.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

If 1500 pounds step on you in the area occupied by a hoof, it matters little how slender you are, but only where you are being stepped on. Unless you are in a stampede, the likelihood of being stepped on is small. I rode a few horses who didn't like stepping on solid ground of a different color, let alone something bulky and squishy like a body. 

Of course you can die horseback riding, just as you can die from a slip and fall in your shower or bath tub. You manage the risk so you aren't asking for it. If the little voice tells you it's not a good idea, it probably isn't. The remaining risk falls under "sh%t happens", like anywhere else in life. 

When I ride my motorcycle to the barn and go out on a w/t/c trail ride, I'm probably closer to death than in front of the tv. I'm also more alive than in front of the tv. 

Yes, a horse may short-circuit and run away with you. Yes, a truck driver can fall asleep and swerve into you from the opposite lane. If you look around, there's always 1000 ways to die, which is why they made a tv show of it.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Exactly, @mmshiro - _all_ of that. Very well put.

This idea of being in control in a car is mostly an illusion, since you're not in control of other people's driving behaviours, and those are far more likely to kill a horse rider than an accident involving a horse.

Or one can stay on the "safe sofa" and die of a cardiac arrest thirty years later, not having really lived.

I'm not knocking anyone's phobias, since phobias are real and their removal isn't generally simple. It does help though, to talk to that part of your brain and keep putting things into perspective.

Here's an excellent recent article on this subject from our part of the world.

How your worst fears stack up against reality - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Happy riding, everyone! :cowboy:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Fabulous cartoon link, @SteadyOn! :rofl: We were laughing so much; and we've bookmarked it...


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Odd to me that you worry about falling, getting bitten or kicked. As Joel says the latter two can generally be prevented.

So, why aren't you worried about getting into a car? Chances of being seriously hurt or killed are way higher than riding.

Me? Guess I am a fatalist, I believe whatever happens was meant to happen to test us.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I had a fall, 2 years back, where for a split second I thought the horse was going to either step right on my abdomen, or literally roll onto my belly. I , for a split second, thought I was seeing that sliver of time right before everything changes. But, . . . . it didnt'. 

I still shiver inside when I remember it, but, I'm riding again. What do they call it when you know one thing is real, but you convince yourself that it isn't, and create your own truth? Dissonant reality? something like that.
I think riding is all about that.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Finalcanter said:


> But I think I'm starting to get a little mote nervous than usual. I mean I got bit on the side of stomach a day or two ago. Being slender, I thought had that horse really bit down, I could've seriously hurt the organs that reside there. Or if I got kicked, the likelyhood of it being serious to fatal is high for someone like me..


It's interesting how you've made your fear more personal to yourself. You've rationalized that you are somehow at higher risk because of your size, build or whatever. I've heard others say the same, "I'm now 30 (or 25 or 45 or 60), so my risk is higher." I've found it interesting that the number people feel increases their risk is rather personal, with some only assessing themselves at higher risk due to age after reaching some crazy number like 85. One horseman said, "Now that I'm 90...I have to be careful." Others start feeling at risk when hitting 25 or 30. I've heard people feel they might be at more danger because of being small, or tall (like Christopher Reeve), or thin, or heavy. 

No one has ever studied whether it is more dangerous to be bitten, kicked or bucked off by a horse if you are small or large. My belief is that these things are equally dangerous for everyone, and no one falls into a special category. Kids are as likely to be injured or killed by horses as adults, regardless of age. So the idea that younger people "bounce" is not really accurate. I've personally known more younger teens and children with broken bones after falling off horses than adults, although I've known far more adults with falls. 

The truth is that only 20 people are killed on average per year by horses in the U.S., while cows kill 22. Dogs kill 28. Do you get a surge of adrenaline while petting a dog? Wonder if he'll bite you and injure your internal organs? Well, he's more likely to than a horse. 

From @SueC's link:


> But understanding where irrational fear comes from doesn’t explain the converse: why we’re often disproportionately unafraid of things that are far more dangerous by comparison...
> 
> ...Emotion enhances memory, which is useful for helping us avoid things that have caused pain or hurt in the past, like bee stings or that cheating boyfriend.
> 
> But emotion can also undermine our ability to calculate the odds, leading us to overestimate the risk of events that are horrible but uncommon, and underestimate the risk of the familiar or ordinary.


Horses "feel" dangerous to our senses. However, other things we do every day that don't trigger our senses are far more dangerous. Thousands of people die from choking while eating. Does eating scare us? As mentioned, cars are extremely dangerous but we have desensitized ourselves to them. Many of us also stop using normal safety precautions while driving cars. 

If you use basic safety precautions when handling and riding horses, the only way you could die would be from a very freak accident, and it would be just as likely that a winning lottery ticket would fall out of the sky and land on your head. Neither thing should occupy much of our thoughts.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Some time ago, there was thread here where folks wrote of the crazy things they did ahorseback as kids. Some folks mentioned that they qualified for a "no fear" t-shirt. I can't claim that t-shirt. 


I have over 55 years in the saddle, and I've drawn the rough string for much of it. A dose of reality probably includes bit of fear. I always have a bit of nervousness when I tack up a known problem horse. Sometimes my hands shake. In all that time, I can count maybe 4 times when I could easily have died. 


One was a headfirst contact with a tree stump when I was a kid. Another time, I got clipped behind the ear in the rodeo arena. I think it was a hock rather than a hoof. I've done a flip over the ears of a running horse and had the time to think "Well I'm gonna get stomped." The horse stopped short, and stuck his face in mine. "What are you doing down there?" And I've been rolled over by a somersaulting horse. 


Those things never really come to mind when I'm riding, or getting ready to ride. Only when the topic comes up like this. It's not like rolling dice. With each ride, if you're mindful of what you're doing, the odds tip to your favor. You develop a little more skill. A little more balance. A little more feel for the movement of the horse. A little more ability to read what the horse intends.


Hope that helps some.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Well, here's the thing. You don't really have that much control about when you die, and you will die. You are in the process of it as we speak. One person will climb out of a massive wreck with bruises and another will die choking on a piece of popcorn. One person might die when they are 105 years old or more and 
another an hour old. Most people would probably agree that they don't want to be so injured that life is not fun anymore so you take precautions. 

My big thing about dying is what I'm leaving behind. I want to make sure that my dogs, horses, cat, and parrot have somewhere nice to land. I do have some control over that. Family, well, maybe they will be sad but they can take care of themselves. I want to leave behind more love than there was before I came. 

Live this life that you have. I personally want to die laughing and saying "Oh man, that was so much fun" and get back in line to do it again.

As far as horses in particular, they are big and their size can be intimidating to some people. I know lots of people who are afraid of horses. Usually they find other fun things to do. I think that maybe you are just afraid of dying in general and the size and power of the horse intimidates you and you combine the two.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> I have over 55 years in the saddle, and I've drawn the rough string for much of it. A dose of reality probably includes bit of fear. I always have a bit of nervousness when I tack up a known problem horse. Sometimes my hands shake.


I went through the nervousness phase when I started riding a motorcycle. More exposure, more experience, and not a lot of scary incidents made it more routine to swing my leg over. I still have a sense of adventure whenever I'm about to ride out - and I don't do "problem horses", I only go up to "a little green around the edges".

In your honor:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Fear is more an emotion than a rational thought. I don't gain much from telling myself to not be afraid. I find it more productive to actively seek ways to reduce the risk. When I know I'm safer, I feel safer.

Bitten or stepped on? Hasn't happened to me yet, but I own my own horses so I get to choose how they are treated.

Falling? I can't afford it. I spend too much time riding on pavement or surrounded by cactus. It isn't 100% preventable, of course, and I could fall the next time I ride. But...

After my first (and to date, only) fall, I switched from an English saddle to an Australian one. An Australian saddle with an American horn added is one tough saddle to fall out of! Was I cheating? Yeah. So what. It worked. Later switched to a western saddle, and more recently to an Abetta. The Abetta saddle is much grippier, and thus much easier to stay in, when my horse hits the fan.








​

If your horse is unpredictable, then I think being a little "behind the horse" helps with staying on. Others disagree, which is OK. Do whatever you believe (or a good instructor tells you) will help you stay on an unpredictable horse.

"_Speed and surprises don't mix well with me_" - so practice them. Canter in a round pen if needed, or on a lunge line. Practice lots of transitions - changes in speed or direction. Practice turns. Do it while standing in the stirrups, which will reveal any flaws in your balance. If need be, do the latter in a western saddle so you can keep one hand on the horn to help you balance until you don't need any help balancing.

Lastly, it is OK to get scared and dismount before the horse gets scared. It is an emotion. It doesn't have to be rational. But for me...riding while scared only built up memories of being scared on horses, which increased my fear. Once I felt free to dismount, and then mount up 10 minutes later when the fear passed, I started overwriting memories of being afraid on horses with memories of having good times on horses. Pushing thru my fear didn't help me any more than it helped my spooky horse. BOTH of us needed to build memories of good times and staying safe.


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## Finalcanter (Apr 15, 2013)

Alright, finally figured out how to multi quote on mobile.



SteadyOn said:


> I have those exact same fears and thoughts around horses. Everything. All of the above.
> 
> Recently I've been a little less fearful though I can't exactly say why. But it's something that comes and goes to varying degrees. I expect I'll be that fearful again, and it won't necessarily be for any apparent reason.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for the video. These things don't keep me from riding or working with horses. It's just a thought, and a valid one at that. It's usually when I'm dealing with a hot horse or one that's misbehaving- so it's not a general 'fear' with all horses. I shouldve specified that in my thread. I'll give changing my narrative a try. 




Joel Reiter said:


> You mention three different scenarios -- falling off, getting bitten, and getting kicked.
> 
> 
> Of the three, falling off is the most difficult to prevent. I have fallen off a lot of horses in my life, but at 64 I have NEVER been kicked or bitten. Maybe I'm just lucky.
> ...


In short, a girthy horse. I do wear a helmet. I know what to do for next time.



gottatrot said:


> It's interesting how you've made your fear more personal to yourself. You've rationalized that you are somehow at higher risk because of your size, build or whatever. I've heard others say the same, "I'm now 30 (or 25 or 45 or 60), so my risk is higher." I've found it interesting that the number people feel increases their risk is rather personal, with some only assessing themselves at higher risk due to age after reaching some crazy number like 85. One horseman said, "Now that I'm 90...I have to be careful." Others start feeling at risk when hitting 25 or 30. I've heard people feel they might be at more danger because of being small, or tall (like Christopher Reeve), or thin, or heavy.
> 
> No one has ever studied whether it is more dangerous to be bitten, kicked or bucked off by a horse if you are small or large. My belief is that these things are equally dangerous for everyone, and no one falls into a special category. Kids are as likely to be injured or killed by horses as adults, regardless of age. So the idea that younger people "bounce" is not really accurate. I've personally known more younger teens and children with broken bones after falling off horses than adults, although I've known far more adults with falls.
> 
> ...


Alright I'm going to be up front and say your post was a bit nasty. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but I have some rebuttal to it. 

I made the issue about myself because I'm human and we often do this. You can say your physical size doesn't matter or similar things such as age but it does hold some merit. I'm not trying to say bad things will happen BECAUSE I'm thin. I'm saying that I perhaps should be a little more careful because of that. It's just being aware. For example, I'm pretty sure thin people and the very elderly (just examples) are more likely to break bones since one's bones are either considered more delicate in a way. So it might prompt someone in said categories to be a little safer. 

An aside- I am hoping this thread doesn't turn into some type of shaming..but you all have better sense than that anyway.

Back on track to your response, my dogs are very small so of course I wouldn't think that. You're statement is falling flat. Just because one may be more dangerous/ "more likely" doesn't take away the fear one feels. And horses are a lot bigger than dogs so for some people, they naturally fear them. Some people fear dogs the same even if they're dealing with a toy breed vs. A large working breed. 

I agree with you that we make our fears much larger than they should be and it shouldn't preoccupy our minds. But that wasn't what was happening to me. I don't obsess over getting killed by a horse. It's just a passing thought if a horse is being very unruly or hot. I certainly wouldn't think a dead broke riding horse is going to kill me. If something is presenting a dangerous situation I think it's pretty normal to have a thought like that. It's fight or fight sometimes.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Finalcanter said:


> Alright I'm going to be up front and say your post was a bit nasty. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but I have some rebuttal to it.


I don't think anyone is trying to be nasty or trying to shame you. I didn't read any of the replies here as negative, myself. I thought this was quite an intelligent, helpful, enlightening thread. We're all sympathizing with those fears, and sharing the ways that we think about things to help manage them. No one is trying to call you silly or unreasonable for being anxious.

Working with horses and riding them is completely irrational and a totally avoidable risk. So we all need a few mental gymnastics to cope with that fact and go ahead and do it anyhow. Sometimes that takes some levity, too, but no one is mocking you or putting you down here, that I can see.


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## Finalcanter (Apr 15, 2013)

bsms said:


> Fear is more an emotion than a rational thought. I don't gain much from telling myself to not be afraid. I find it more productive to actively seek ways to reduce the risk. When I know I'm safer, I feel safer.
> 
> Bitten or stepped on? Hasn't happened to me yet, but I own my own horses so I get to choose how they are treated.
> 
> ...


Yeah I like the idea of switching out things that help make you safer- as you said with the saddles. And also comfortable to the horse. Though of course these are not my horses and it's 'their' tack I'm using. So I have to make myself safer. 

I agree with practice as a solution to combat nerves of any kind. If I do find myself needing to get off to catch my breath, I usually get back on and try not to let nerves control me.


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## Finalcanter (Apr 15, 2013)

SteadyOn said:


> Finalcanter said:
> 
> 
> > Alright I'm going to be up front and say your post was a bit nasty. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but I have some rebuttal to it.
> ...


Yes, and I am reading through the responses. That one just didn't sit well. It's just that, I don't know, I'm still having some residual feelings from things that happened at the barn and I suppose I'm reading with 'tinted shades' because of that.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I didn’t think it intended to be nasty at all. I think it was an effort to make a point, not mean but blunt I guess. Like you are not more special than other people and in that line of thinking not more likely to get hurt. It is a thought like this that actually helped me.

I wasn’t afraid. As a child I rode anything and everything, and I truly didn’t believe there was a horse alive who could better me. Vain I know... Anyways, a mare came along who was the first to scare me. She has been started by another, and he was honest in saying he didn’t like her. Her name was Lilly, and her intention was to hurt someone. I rode her a few times, but I primarily stole those rides and I knew it. One day a big public fight happened when I was afraid to get on her. When someone who thought they knew more than I did went in then to bridle her she struck that person in the face leaving open bone for all to see.

I think that Lilly surprised me because I didn’t know I could get scared of a horse until she came along. Then I had kids, and something about that seems to bring out fear in a person. Anyways, (I realize I am droning on) one day when Bones first came home I was working on something and he was hot and I was nervous. My husband happened to be outside and he said something that truly helped me.

Since I had not really known fear for a large portion of my life, I felt that my fear was unique I guess. He said, as he took over what I was doing, “Everyone is scared sometimes. It’s just deciding it’s more important to do something than not.” So, although I have been scared at times since that day, I remember what he said. I just continue on anyways.

That’s not saying to be dumb and get struck in the face by a Lilly, but that is saying that in normal circumstances which are intimidating, and in which you know the right answer of how to deal with it, decide if your fear is more important to you or if the outcome is.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Let me use one of my horses as an example. He was sold to us but we needed to prepare a place for him. While waiting, he was loaned to a ranch who promised to use him for sheepherding (which he was good at) but not for cutting cattle. Well, they then decided to MAKE him cut cattle. Spurred holes into his sides the size of the palm of my hand! 10 years later, he still has scars.

His fear of that was rational, except he didn't associate the pain with being spurred. He associated it with "cowboy hats". We found that out when the trainer we hired showed up wearing a cowboy hat and he exploded in fear. Broke thru the corral. And it was her HAT that scared him. She could walk up and scratch his nose, no problems, if she was wearing a baseball cap!

Fear can be rational, irrational, or a mix. When the fear has a rational basis - I'm more likely to fall when the horse suddenly changes direction - then it can be solved rationally. Practice small changes in an arena until you are comfortable with bigger changes.

When it is irrational, then the bad memories or associations need to be overwritten with good one. The trainer needed a month with Trooper to convince him cowboy hats were not scary. At all. They could even mean treats! Once he had enough good memories overwriting the bad, he was fine.

BTW - this was Trooper after he had started healing. His fear wasn't "wrong", just misplaced:


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## Finalcanter (Apr 15, 2013)

I guess perhaps I should add that I always have a certain someone remind me of the dangers involved with horses. So this isn't always helpful. I know good and well the dangers. 

Also about the shaming thing.. sorry. I've been experiencing people shaming me right now for something along the lines of 'good riders don't fall off' and I've been told this as it happened. Not by just one person either. And worse when it's coming from those you love..


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

"Good riders don't fall off!" HA HA HA HA
If someone said that to me I would never listen to a thing they ever said again. Don't they have youtube?

Here's a true story! A couple weeks ago I decided while I was taking a bath to rinse my hair off in the deeper end of the tub, the one with the tap. While I was rinsing my hair with my eyes closed I forgot I had changed things and came up to sitting quite fast and just about knocked myself out on the faucet. Not much blood, a lump on my head. But it really shocked me somehow. I take a bath in that tub every night and I am STILL AFRAID OF THE FAUCET. Not mentally afraid, obviously, but my body is extremely wary of it, even though that was the last time I rinsed my hair like that. 

My point is, fears are pretty non-rational (not irrational, NON rational). They can be very hard to shift, because they are embedded in your body.

Now, there are excellent way to reduce your risks, riding. Don't jump. Stay alert on the ground and develop safe habits of handling. Ride a quiet, well-behaved horse. Only ride with sane, sensible people mounted on sane sensible horses. Wear a helmet and even a safety vest. 

Also, continually work on your fears, any way you safely can. Don't give them mental room (no rehearsing or imagining). Try new things that make you afraid, broken down into smaller pieces you can accomplish. Practice working through fear, but do it in SMALL bits. Create new mental pathways this way.

I know a talented young rider who will never be a success, because when anything at all goes a little south, she freezes. Her mind goes blank and she stops riding her horse. Often she will just let the horse careen around until she falls off. This is extreme, but it's an example of how fear can paralyze you and maybe even contributes to the worst happening, because you stop being proactive. 

As to why people do dangerous things like drive cars and never think about it, that I think is a combo of two things -- habituation (weren't you pretty nervous when you first learned how to drive?) and the amazingly poor ability human beings have to assess risk. We are really, really crappy at that, as a species. It is quality well known to psychologists, sociologists, and politicians.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

From a book about survival and how our brain affects our chances:

"The human organism, then, is like a jockey on a thoroughbred in the gate. He's a small man and it's a big horse, and if it decides to get excited in that small metal cage, the jockey is going to get mangled, possibly killed. So he takes great care to be gentle. *The jockey is reason and the horse is emotion, a complex of systems bred over eons of evolution and shaped by experience, which exists for your survival*. They are so powerful, they can make you do things you'd never think to do, and they can allow you to do things you'd never believe yourself capable of doing. The jockey can't win without the horse, and the horse can't race alone. In the gate, they are two, and its dangerous. But when they run, they are one, and its positively godly...

...The horse can either work for us or against us. It can win the race or explode in the gate. So it is learning when to soothe and gentle it and when to let it run that marks the winning jockey, the true survivor. And that is what the dark humor of various subcultures is all about: It's about gentling the beast, keeping it cool; and when it's time to run, it's about letting it flow, about having emotion and reason in perfect balance....

...Remarque's soldiers learned to connect a deeply instinctive emotional response to the whistling of a shell. There were no high-explosive shells when emotion evolved, but it is handily recruited into the task of avoiding them after only a few experiences to make the connection. *The connection, once made, is so profound that taking the necessary action requires no thought or will; it works automatically.* The proof that it's a secondary and not a primary emotion is that the new recruits didn't have the same reaction, and they died by the score as a result...

...Evolution took millions of years to come up with emotional responses. *It has not yet had time to come up with an appropriate survival response for the Navy fighter pilots on quarter-mile final, trying to land a 50,000 pound stovepipe on the heaving deck of a ship...*

...As the fear rises, you become more unable to deal with it because you are not even aware of the learning that is propelling you. LeDoux refers to this as a 'hostile takeover of consciousness by emotion...the body knows where safety is, and when you're a rookie and really afraid, any successful [carrier] landing carries with it an explosive, almost orgasmic sense of release. The pilot had developed a powerful secondary emotion, which told him that safety and even ecstasy could be found on the ground (or on the deck) and that if he could _just get the hell down_, he's be alright. He had a true and physical memory of that sensation, which was a powerful motivator of behavior developed by coupling that experience with a primary emotional state. He also had an intellectual knowledge that if you land when you are already low and slow, you might die. Unfortunately, he had no secondary emotion for that, since he had never experienced it. It was an abstract idea, forebrain stuff. It could not compete as a motivator of behavior.

--- Deep Survival: Who Lives, Who Dies, and Why by Laurence Gonzales 

https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Surviva...s=Deep+Survival:+Who+Lives,+Who+Dies,+and+Why

Humans haven't evolved to ride horses. Our learning is secondary, and it involves both conscious and unconscious thought. The unconscious thoughts can keep us on the horse or alert us to danger - provided we live long enough to develop GOOD responses!

Horses endure the same process. My horse has not evolved to understand correct responses to trash cans lining the street. His suspicion of them is reasonable, until successfully passing them enough times teaches him the correct response.

Unfortunately, the old joke about what is best in life kicks in:

What is needed to live a good life, Master?

Good judgment!

But Master, how do I gain good judgment?

Experience!

But Master, how do I gain experience?

Bad judgment!​ 
When we don't have the experiences for our bodies to respond correctly at the near-instant subconscious level, when we have to rely on conscious thought to respond, we ARE in danger. If riding is worth it to you, then you can take precautions (helmets, lessons, body protectors, saddles, horse selection, etc) to REDUCE the risk until you acquire the right reflexes. But in the end, it requires riding in increasingly challenging situations, along with analysis of what went right and what did not, do develop those "secondary emotions" that allow us to stay safe.

Riding horses is worth the risk, to me. Climbing cliffs is not. Fear is not wrong, but it may need to be channeled before it can be helpful.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I read an extremely interesting article once, wish I knew where it was. It was about the two different kinds of reactions to adrenaline. These are genetic and physiological and cannot be altered. One kind of person experiences an adrenaline-producing situation as a hyper-heightening of clarity of thought. "Time slows down so I can see exactly what to do and have enough time to do it in" is a very common description from this type of person. They feel extremely 'in the now", with a marvelous sense of aliveness. Most thrill-seeking, risk-taking people are in this genetic category. 

The other type of person has the reaction of the world freezing up, their mind going blank, no thoughts connect. They may feel that they are free-floating without being able to control anything at all. It is terrifying and no one having this reaction wants to ever have it again.

I'm the second kind of person, by the way. I have never once experienced that amazing in the zone thing. Like never, ever. 

But that is not the interesting part of the article. The research subjects for this study (there was a lot more science and EEGS and electrodes & stuff I don't remember) were *fighter pilots*.

You'd think that fighter pilots would all be in category one, the Time Slows Down people. It's true that those are in the majority, but there's a surprising percentage of fighter pilots who are in the Mind Goes Blank category as well. When faced with a totally new, frightening experience, they perform as badly as, well, me. So what is the difference between me, and a Mind Goes Blank fighter pilot?

PRACTICE. 

That's right. Fighter pilots practice and practice and practice until every possible emergency scenario has an embedded rote reflex response that kicks in no matter what is going through your mind or if nothing is. And that is how they survive.

I think that the common observation that riding in a wild carefree unstructured way as a child is a huge advantage for later adult fear-free riding, is mostly due to the above: practice. A lot of the things I do to keep safe with horses I don't even know that I do, they are habits laid down decades ago. They are embedded. But that doesn't mean that someone who missed out on that early experience can't develop good reflex responses through practice. After all, few ten year olds are flying bombers. 

I guess it is hard to set up exercises which teach this sort of thing, as it doesn't have that much to do with equitation per se (a very dim concept to me growing up riding). It would be interesting to try, though!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Fighter pilots also have "boldface". There are situations that rarely happen, but need an immediate response. Those immediate responses are printed in boldface in the checklist. During training, you are tested every week. You have to write out the boldface procedures, from memory, and getting a single letter or punctuation mark wrong results in being grounded and remedial training. Once operational, you took the boldface exam every month. Again, any failure - even a missing comma - meant you were grounded.

For example, in F-4s, if you went out of control:

*1. Stick - Forward*
*2. Ailerons and rudder - neutral*
*3. If not recovered - Maintain full forward stick and deploy drag chute*

For a spin:

*1. Stick - Maintain full forward*
*2. Ailerons - Full with spin/turn needle*
*3. Aircraft unloaded - Ailerons neutral*

Step 4, not in boldface, added "If out of control at or below 10,000 feet agl - EJECT".

29 years after my last flight in F-4s, I had to look it up. But once I got started, it flowed again.

It would be nice if someone could come up with boldface procedures for riding horses! And here is part of the magic: Because you knew WHAT to do, you were not afraid! That tends to be true riding, as well. If you know HOW to respond, you just respond. You may well feel nervous, but no crippling fear.

An Australian saddle kept me on my spooky Arabian mare until I learned - by experience - which things resulted in my staying on. The response is subconscious. It has to be. Fear comes either when you reach in your bag of tricks and come up empty - it is EASY to freeze when you are clueless! - or when the previous similar situations resulted in bad memories.

Same as my horse. If I whip my horse to make him go past trash cans, he associates trash cans with pain. He (she, actually, my spooky Arabian mare who I made more spooky at first) remembers "_Trash can = pain. Scary! Run away!_"

If I let him do a detour - the distance depending on HIS evaluation - around the trash can, he starts to associate trash cans with...nothing happening. Until, of course, he sees a trash can with the lid open and things hanging out its "mouth"!

Fear is a type of memory stored in the brain. It literally has proteins and connections - physical structures - inside the brain that says "_Bad! Hurt! Avoid!_" You can try to override those memories with reason. It sometimes works. If the things isn't too scary. Just like I can sometimes tell my horse, "That trash can is safe. Go on by." But if I push my horse too hard, he'll explode. My reason and the "control" I have thru the reins won't be enough, and the explosion itself will make the bad thing even scarier. Thus "bad memories" - existing as physical structures in the brain - need to be overwritten with "good memories". And sometimes, that means backing off and taking smaller bites at the problem until you learn AND REMEMBER that you CAN handle it!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Every horse like every person, has a breaking point, past which there is no learning, just panic. If you want to lay down new neural pathways, you have to stay well to this side of that point. That's why I emphasize small pieces.

Because we are pretty much just like horses, in terms of learning to trust and go forward. When I get really shaky and feel I can't go on, I talk myself through it exactly like I talk my horse through a long mud puddle that I know is solid gravel on the bottom, but she doesn't. One step -- good girl! You can do it! Try for two steps! Way to go! 

And never, never let someone shame you into believing you are in some way defective for being at the place where you are right now. That's a dark hole to fall into.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Finalcanter said:


> I guess perhaps I should add that I always have a certain someone remind me of the dangers involved with horses. So this isn't always helpful. I know good and well the dangers.


I don't think that's very useful behaviour on behalf of that certain someone, and especially repeating it over. That kind of thing can undermine you and rob you of confidence, which then actually _increases_ your risk when around horses.

In Australia, we'd say to someone like that, if they're harping on, "Go jump in the lake." They may _feel_ like they are helping, but they aren't.

And in _some_ cases, it's a psychological game people play that lets them look all concerned and helpful while actually affecting you adversely. It may be deliberately done, or subconsciously done from unresolved emotional baggage. I'm not in a position to comment on the cases you encounter, but it's something that some people do. Especially if they prefer others in the "down" position, for whatever reason.




> Also about the shaming thing.. sorry. I've been experiencing people shaming me right now for something along the lines of 'good riders don't fall off' and I've been told this as it happened. Not by just one person either. And worse when it's coming from those you love..


Excuse me for being blunt, but are people who behave like this worthy of your love? Their behaviour is appalling. There are plenty of good people to love in this world, who won't treat you like this. Loving the right people doesn't feel like a black hole that sucks away at your personhood and dismantles your confidence and joy.

Real friends are supportive and kind and cheer you on and celebrate your small victories, and are happy when you succeed.

On this thread, I didn't read anything negative directed at you or implied or insinuated. @*gottatrot* thinks very similarly to me; using the left brain a lot to examine various risk situations, and also being aware of emotions and trying to figure out if they are a hindrance or actually helpful. She works with some pretty hairy horses and it's very important for her to think things through.

Humour can also be helpful - laughing at our own human foibles, like being afraid of things that are statistically highly safe, and blasé about objectively dangerous stuff. And then _acting_ on the rational information, letting that inform our actions. We can't always help how we feel, but we can generally choose what to _do_.

The great thing about learning to laugh about yourself is that you'll then _always_ have something to laugh about! ;-)

I'm sending you a big :hug:!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

@*Avna* , interesting posts and very good advice, good reading! 

Just one thing here:




Avna said:


> I know a talented young rider *who will never be a success*, because when anything at all goes a little south, she freezes. Her mind goes blank and she stops riding her horse. Often she will just let the horse careen around until she falls off. This is extreme, but it's an example of how fear can paralyze you and maybe even contributes to the worst happening, because you stop being proactive.


I understand what you are trying to say in this illustrated and useful example, but I've highlighted the bit that isn't helpful. When someone is having a problem with fear, we can't conclude that they are _never ever_ going to be successful at overcoming it - and to say so can create a social jinx for them, and actually make it harder for them to overcome their fear - because of what other people are saying about it; and older, experienced people at that.

I'm pretty sure what you probably meant to say was, *who will not be a very successful rider until she learns to overcome her fear*.

We've got to create the expectation for people that they _can_ do it.

That kind of freeze response is sometimes produced by very adverse childhood experiences, which can take quite a while to excavate. But even those can be excavated. I'm not speculating on the cause of the freeze response for a particular individual I don't even know, just commenting that this is a not infrequent reality for many young people, and that as a community we can and should help people who may not have had many positive vibes directed at them when young, by doing exactly that for them.

Glad your head survived that tap, ouch! You must have a very tough head. ;-) And you know, irrational response or not, it's going to stop you from banging your head on that tap for the rest of your life, I'm sure!


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

@Avna Sems I recall another study that listed a third fear reaction. The running in circles, waving the arms, screaming, full panic reaction. I see it demonstrated mostly in folks who are terrified of insects. 


I doubt a test group of fighter pilots would even have the room to exhibit that reaction. 


This is a good discussion. I hope it is helping the OP.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Finalcanter said:


> ...Alright I'm going to be up front and say your post was a bit nasty. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but I have some rebuttal to it.


I apologize if my post came across as shaming to you. It was not my intention at all. When I said you were making it "personal," I didn't mean that you should take what I said "personally," but rather I was just interested that we all find rationalizations to make our own personal reasons for fear. This might mean one person thinks going in an airplane is unacceptably dangerous, and another might think crossing a bridge is unacceptably dangerous. 

My examples were just to note that we decide for ourselves what requires more caution, regardless of whether something is statistically more dangerous or not.
It is _good_ for you to be safety conscious, and being careful or afraid is nothing to be ashamed of. I personally am often afraid. It's just that I believe it's important to use logic instead of emotion when making decisions about what we do with horses. 



Finalcanter said:


> I agree with you that we make our fears much larger than they should be and it shouldn't preoccupy our minds. But that wasn't what was happening to me. I don't obsess over getting killed by a horse. It's just a passing thought if a horse is being very unruly or hot.


All of us struggle with making too much of fears. That's why this is interesting to talk about, and thanks for bringing up the subject.

I'll tell you where I make my own personal rationalizations for fear. Sometimes I'll convince myself that the horse I'm riding is more likely to trip and fall down than another horse. I'll have thoughts about how my horse is older, or had an injury once, or etc. Even if I tell myself this is no more rational than someone thinking they're more likely to shatter into pieces because they hit age 25, or that they'll fall off because they still have 5 extra lbs left after having a baby, it is something my brain would like to dwell on sometimes. 



Finalcanter said:


> I certainly wouldn't think a dead broke riding horse is going to kill me. If something is presenting a dangerous situation I think it's pretty normal to have a thought like that. It's fight or fight sometimes.


And that is where we humans err quite a bit. I've read in several places that people are far more likely to be injured by horses that are dead broke. We can think about the danger when we know a horse might hurt us. People are very careful with green horses and hot horses. You'll be watching the horse that bit you very carefully, so it's unlikely to happen again. But we forget that dead broke horses are still horses, and those are the ones people drop the reins on and the horse gets spooked, or forget to follow basic safety measures because the horse is so trustworthy.

Saying that good riders don't fall off is like saying if you're a good driver you'll never get into a car accident.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

SueC said:


> @*Avna* , interesting posts and very good advice, good reading!
> 
> Just one thing here:
> 
> ...


Actually in this person's case it seems to be a neurological thing. It is not a previous trauma ptsd thing, she has been like this since she was very small, with horses, even though she loves them and has ridden consistently since she was five (she is 18 now). It is frustrating for everyone, and no, I do not think this particular person will ever change, so I guess she wasn't the greatest example. 

My experience is that you don't "overcome" fear -- you create new patterns that 'over-write' it so to speak. Force of will can put you in the path of fear, but it can't in my experience, control the emotion.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

Surely someone has suggested a padded vest to wear, then an inflatable vest for when riding? It may give you peace of mind and reduce your risk of a serious injury.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Avna said:


> I read an extremely interesting article once, wish I knew where it was. It was about the two different kinds of reactions to adrenaline. These are genetic and physiological and cannot be altered.


Sounds like an interesting article, but the conclusion that something like that is entirely genetic cannot be validly made. And that, by the way, for anyone who's not a trained scientist, is why scientific literature is written - for peer review and evaluation.

The adrenaline response is physiological, that's correct. But whether it helps you think or makes you freeze is not an unalterable genetic trait. I've personally had both types of responses (as has Brett, and as have a number of friends I've compared notes with); I have the "helps me think" response when I'm working with horses or in dangerous physical situations. I have had the "freeze" reaction in childhood in particular, and I can still have the "freeze" reaction to certain triggers that relate back to childhood trauma, and all the horrible and useless feelings that go with it.

But, while hard to shift, it can definitely be shifted. Just ask any number of people working on it.

Genetics and environment exist in very complex interplay. It's true for things like coat colour in horses, which is predominantly genetic, but also affected by environment - trace element deficiencies, UV radiation etc etc. It's even more true for emotional and behavioural things. Epigenetics is a really interesting subject area - it looks at how gene readout can be affected by environmental feedback, and tells us that the way someone's DNA is reading out can even affect how their offspring's DNA is going to read out. Fascinating stuff.

Shakespeare hit it on the head a long time ago: _There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy!

_One draft had it as _our_ philosophy - and it is intended to be a reality check reminding us of our own limited thinking as humans.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Avna said:


> Actually in this person's case it seems to be a neurological thing. It is not a previous trauma ptsd thing, she has been like this since she was very small, with horses, even though she loves them and has ridden consistently since she was five (she is 18 now). It is frustrating for everyone, and no, I do not think this particular person will ever change, so I guess she wasn't the greatest example.


It's actually not possible to say that it's definitely not trauma related, since some PTSD happens from experiences so early and so before language development that it's not easily remembered by the individual. And it doesn't have to be with a horse either, to result in a particular kind of fear response on a horse in particular situations. It's more likely with other people, or with random environmental stuff.

And whether or not it's not trauma related, these kinds of patterns are not unalterable. But encouraging someone to think they are makes it harder for that person to alter their pattern.




> My experience is that you don't "overcome" fear -- you create new patterns that 'over-write' it so to speak. Force of will can put you in the path of fear, but it can't in my experience, control the emotion.


That's just a semantic difference. I would say that creating new patterns to overwrite the old is how you overcome fear.

And like you, I don't think it's about willing emotions away. I think it's about dealing with your emotions in the way @*bsms* suggested with his horse and jockey analogy, which was a fabulous analogy! So while our emotions can't generally be controlled directly, we can do a lot of indirect things that will help us to deal with them, and to _overcome_ what fear might hitherto have shackled us in.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Avna said:


> Every horse like every person, has a breaking point, past which there is no learning, just panic. If you want to lay down new neural pathways, you have to stay well to this side of that point. That's why I emphasize small pieces.


Interestingly, many times the relationship between human and horse is characterized as that of predator and prey species. Let's keep in mind, though, that for some Millions of years, our ancestors were prey species, small primates "growing up" under the domain of dinosaurs. Even the first actual humans weren't exactly top of the food chain in the African savannah, so we still have a good number of prey instincts with us. Channeling those can help us to "think like a horse", but it sure feels uncomfortable when they come bubbling up.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

gottatrot said:


> It's interesting how you've made your fear more personal to yourself. You've rationalized that you are somehow at higher risk because of your size, build or whatever. I've heard others say the same, "I'm now 30 (or 25 or 45 or 60), so my risk is higher." I've found it interesting that the number people feel increases their risk is rather personal, with some only assessing themselves at higher risk due to age after reaching some crazy number like 85. One horseman said, "Now that I'm 90...I have to be careful." Others start feeling at risk when hitting 25 or 30. I've heard people feel they might be at more danger because of being small, or tall (like Christopher Reeve), or thin, or heavy.





I appreciate your point of view, but until you ARE older, you cannot understand the feelings of older riders. We KNOW that we are unable to react as fast as we used to. We KNOW that we cannot recover our balance like we used to. We KNOW that if we fall, we will stiffen, and thus we may hear bones break. We know that it will take longer for us to recover from even a minor injury. 

. . . . and yet, . . . we ride on.


It's not that the risk presented by the horse is any greater, . . or lesser. It is that our ability to adapt to , and meet, these challenges diminishes with age. 

It is the sad truth that with each year that I live, I know more about about horses, and yet am less able to put it into actual use because my body just can't flex , or bounce, or balance like it used to.


this is the paradox of ageing; we learn more, but become less able to put it into use. And, the younger persons cannot understand this . . . . . yet.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

SueC said:


> ...But whether it helps you think or makes you freeze is not an unalterable genetic trait....But, while hard to shift, it can definitely be shifted. Just ask any number of people working on it...


One of my oddities is that when I was shot at in combat, it didn't scare me. For me, it was like watching a movie. I was curious about the outcome, but it had no sense of reality. It was true during aircraft emergencies. I didn't get nervous. Just curious, and would have cheerfully been troubleshooting the problem all the way into the ground. Once I recognized this fault - and it is a huge fault in someone flying for a living - I could compensate.

I cannot be certain it was genetic, and it certainly hasn't applied while riding. When things go wrong while riding, I feel all of my vulnerability. As long as I have more tricks in my bag of tricks, it doesn't overwhelm me in riding. But when flying - nearly 25 years didn't change me any. I learned to compensate for a personality flaw. I sometimes mentioned it is flight safety meetings and had people go, "You too?"

When I talked to some Border Collie breeders, they told me they bred for things like how far out the collie sweeps to get around the sheep. And of course, it doesn't always work. My Border Collie is Mr Mellow. The calmest dog I've ever owned. Believes in lying in the shade and watching humans work! His full sister competed in the National, but he would tell a sheep herder to go get his own %$# sheep!

In the Nurture vs Nature debate, I used to be all "nurture". It was all in your experience. I now wouldn't put it over 50% in upbringing. They talk about Fight or Flight. I joked with my daughter that my default switch is set to fight. She told me after 20 years, she knew THAT already. But if discussing my sister, @Avna, we'd have to add a third category: *Fight, Flight or Freeze*! *The DEER IN THE HEADLIGHTS is strong with that one!* If she was on a horse that bolted, she would probably faint to avoid needing to act. The difference between us has been consistent since we were kids.

I'm certain we CAN shift our location on a continuum. I'm also certain we can learn good responses to stressful things, but I'd pity the horse who waited for a split-second decision from my sister. She doesn't ride, BTW. She's a good woman, but a horse sometimes NEEDS a person to take charge. I joke about being Bandit's "senior advisor", but when he looks to me for answers, I've got about 1 second to provide one before he will provide his own. And once he takes charge, he won't give it back easily!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> ...It's not that the risk presented by the horse is any greater, . . or lesser. It is that our ability to adapt to , and meet, these challenges diminishes with age.
> 
> It is the sad truth that with each year that I live, I know more about about horses, and yet am less able to put it into actual use because my body just can't flex , or bounce, or balance like it used to...


Very true. I do fear falling in a way I didn't at 20. The ground has gotten harder over the last 40 years! And in all seriousness, where I ride makes falling - and falling at 60 - darn dangerous. I ride on pavement almost every ride. Once we're in the desert, there are cactus and rock everywhere. In my one fall to date, I landed about 3 feet from rocks that would have shattered my back. I also wasn't wearing a helmet at the time. Close call!

I'm also stiff every time I mount up. Better after 15 minutes. After 30 minutes, I almost look like I know how to ride. The first 15 minutes are also when my horse is most likely to spook. I've learned to compensate. An instructor would be appalled by my riding during those first 15 minutes, but it keeps me in the fight until I FINALLY melt into the saddle - usually 30 minutes into the ride.

I wear bifocals. Below a certain level, I can only focus on things about 20 inches a way. Not helpful for riding. Outside the FOV of my glasses, I have ZERO depth perception. Heck, I can't see ANYTHING clearly outside the FOV of my glasses!

An older rider IS at greater risk, physically. Mentally and emotionally, we might be better riders. But that doesn't always count. Not when your body betrays you! :evil:


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> I appreciate your point of view, but until you ARE older, you cannot understand the feelings of older riders. We KNOW that we are unable to react as fast as we used to. We KNOW that we cannot recover our balance like we used to. We KNOW that if we fall, we will stiffen, and thus we may hear bones break. We know that it will take longer for us to recover from even a minor injury.


Yes, @tinyliny, I understand that factually age affects us and this leads to rational adjustments and even fears. But the part that is so variable is what age people decide this becomes a factor. _That_ is highly individualized. 

It is quite rational to know at 60 that your body is not as resilient as it was at 20. However, I've run into many people (not just with riding, with other sports and athletic endeavors) who have decided that some random age is when they have reached that point of being less "able." Or more in danger. Using this as rationalization for their fears. Literally I have heard explanations from people in their mid-20s about how they can't do what they used to, how they are worried about their bodies and feeling old. 

I have many examples, such as healthy 25 year olds with no diagnosed medical problems deciding they should not swim or run, because it has become dangerous for their body. A nurse I work with was told at 22 that a strained back muscle would prevent her from riding horses, so she told me she never sat on a horse again after being an avid rider for years - based on this advice. Meanwhile, she has spent many years as a nurse, lifting and moving patients every day. 

A friend told me she knew when she hit 30 that she should start slowing down, not doing as much physical labor and she thought endurance riding would be unhealthy at her age. After all, she'd had three kids, and everyone knows that having kids will wreck your body and slow you down. In contrast, Maria Mercedes Alvarez Ponton won the 160 km FEI ride in 2010 on Nobby just a few weeks after giving birth.

There is nothing wrong with deciding something is not for you, or that something is too dangerous. I just find it very curious _how_ people decide these things. Why does my friend at 60 have no qualms about starting with a new, big, OTTB, while my other friend at 30 feels she should not ride any more spooky horses at her age? The 30 year old has owned, trained and started dozens of horses, but never had any bad incidents.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

what sorry examples of needless fear


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> I appreciate your point of view, but until you ARE older, you cannot understand the feelings of older riders. We KNOW that we are unable to react as fast as we used to. We KNOW that we cannot recover our balance like we used to. We KNOW that if we fall, we will stiffen, and thus we may hear bones break. We know that it will take longer for us to recover from even a minor injury.
> 
> . . . . and yet, . . . we ride on.
> 
> ...


That reminded me of something I read from an upper level fencing coach some years ago. Something to the effect of; fencing is a sport in which by the time you have mastered the movements, you are too old to execute them effectively.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> I appreciate your point of view, but until you ARE older, you cannot understand the feelings of older riders... this is the paradox of ageing; we learn more, but become less able to put it into use. And, the younger persons cannot understand this . . . . . yet.


I admit I had a bit of a chuckle at that one, dear @*tinyliny* , because @*gottatrot* and I are both in our forties and not exactly in the first flush of biological youth. By the time people are in their forties, most of them will have started to experience little, or bigger, niggles they didn't have before, and the realities of longer recovery times from exertion or illness are becoming evident, as is slower wound healing, even when you're above par in health for your age group, which I am, and I dare say @*gottatrot* is, and probably most people on this thread, as this is the case for most people who have an active lifestyle physically and mentally, and eat well, and take care of themselves.

In other words, once you have reached a certain degree of decrepitude, it does become possible to extrapolate to greater degrees of decrepitude. This is why, in my mid-30s, I chose a replacement riding horse for my retiring old Arabian mare who was extremely sturdy and sure-footed and strong, and easily handled me as a backpack (rather than me being close to his limit), because with an existing back injury to nurse, I really wanted to reduce the chances of falling with a horse again, having done that on multiple occasions with multiple horses (the best one was when someone strung a wire across a track I habitually galloped my horse on, but the one where my mare tripped into a concealed ditch and rolled on me was also interesting - and those particular ones wouldn't have been avoided on a different horse). And ten years later, even though I still like to ride like the clappers, jump logs etc, that horse and I have never had a fall together. (Although I have fallen off him on a number of occasions when accruing excessive momentum for bareback mounting, _whoosh_ straight off the other side head first, vastly amusing to onlookers!)

Apart from extrapolation, there is also empathy. I have a friend with terminal breast cancer. I've never had that myself, but it's not true to say that I therefore have absolutely no idea what she is going through, because I've seen her and listened to her and learnt something about what it is like to walk in her shoes, and I can feel for her even though I've not felt it myself. I've never had chemotherapy, but I can imagine it as a combination of total nausea, achy muscles, general high degree of yuck, and feeling like you're going to die. We've all thrown up, had the flu, been ill - now combine certain aspects and extrapolate. It doesn't replace the experience, but it gives us an approximation (if not the reality - and even if I had the same cancer myself, and the same treatment, I still wouldn't have her exact experience).

It's sort of like a unicorn as a concept. We can all imagine what it is, even though it's not a real thing. We imagine it by putting together separate things we do know about - like a horse, and a horn, and a glowing full-body halo. Can you see it? I can. We almost certainly don't see it the same, but there is overlap on that Venn diagram that allows us to have a degree of meaningful discourse.

I have a number of good friends who are octogenarians. I've seen and listened to them. What I see and hear makes me empathise, and also allows me to make preparations for extending my own riding life as much as possible. Which includes reducing some of the risks - but which ones and how much is an individual decision for each of us.

I hear you re limitations that age is producing. :hug: I'm sorry that happens to people. But you're doing so much more still than the average person, no? Including on horses. It's comparing older self with younger self that can cause a bit of grief. I stopped being able to jump easily over fences without a horse in the last couple of years - my knees say, "Errrrrmm...please don't do what you're planning on doing..." I'm a cheerleader (underage) member of the Krones&Kodgers social thread, who are passing many tips on to me about all sorts of little tricks, and even the different types of body braces you can get. Neato! My ears are open. I stopped being immortal before I was 25. ;-)

And you make the most beautiful art, dear @*tinyliny* , and we appreciate your work to keep the forum civil and friendly in your role as moderator.

I would give you a dozen of these if you like them: :hug:

But then, I've got a lot of Italian genetics and background, which makes me a hug-person. I'm married to an English-extraction, stiff-upper-lip tradition no-hugs culture (unless you've won the cricket or someone has died), lovely sort of man. He has taken to the concept of hugging like a fish to water, but not with everybody. If you're not a hug person, that's OK, but here's a dozen free "cuppa" vouchers (with cake) should you ever travel to Australia!  (Whether or not you're a hug person!)


:cowboy:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I hope you don't think I was feeling sorry for myself? I only meant that until a person starts to feel that creeping sense of fear, and mind you , this discussion was about fear, that is particularly more noticeable when you become older, it's easy to dismiss an older person's apparently unwarranted caution.


There was a lady at our club's prize ride today, who rode all over the trail system and she must be in her late 70's or early 80's, AND has some kind of disease like Parkinsons, which makes her quaver/shake. Man, it must be incredibly difficult to do all she does. I mean, I was tired. and her? one wonders.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I was just reflecting on age and slowing down yesterday, while out riding, as usual alone in a forest miles from home, not exactly lost but not knowing quite where I was either. I decided I am definitely going to be slowing up at 80. Brooke will be 23 then, so we can do more gentle ambling at that point. Right now though, if there's a long clear stretch ahead of us, we're going to gallop. 

So far (I'll be 63 next month), I've not found I have any age-related fears per se. But I do suffer from exhaustion (mental, physical, and emotional) much much more than I did when I was young. My stamina, you could call it, is far less than it once was. And that means I can't attempt things I know will make me ill from stress. That's "fear", if you like. 

Over the years I have come to accept that I really do have limitations, physiological and other limitations that it is my task to ACCEPT and work with, not shame myself because I'm not brave or stubborn enough to overcome them. They can't be overcome any more than I can overcome having hazel eyes or wide feet. And this is a very important distinction. 

I'm someone who is really noticeably different than the norm, in many ways. Some qualities are called admirable and others are nothing but liabilities but they are all unusual. It is the easiest thing in the world to compare myself with others, to compare myself with my dreams and goals, and either feel smug and superior or despairing and self-hating (depending on what I'm comparing and whether I've had a good breakfast). But all of that is wasted spirit. 

What I'd like to say here is that we also have to live to fight another day. That just as a wise trainer knows when the horse has given what it has to give today, and QUITS ON A HIGH NOTE, it is all too easy to push oneself, in the name "overcoming one's fears", right into such a bad experience that you are undone, and go backwards. And -- maybe what it is possible for you to attain, with all your effort, is still very modest compared with your dreams, compared with the person riding right next to you. How will you reconcile that fact with the idea that sufficient drive and willpower can get you anywhere? An idea which has caused me and perhaps millions of others great and entirely superfluous suffering. 

Find a bit of gratitude and joy where you are right now, is my wisdom for today. That gratitude will open a crack in the door of the future.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Avna said:


> ...It is the easiest thing in the world to compare myself with others, to compare myself with my dreams and goals, and either feel smug and superior or despairing and self-hating... But all of that is wasted spirit...
> 
> Find a bit of gratitude and joy where you are right now, is my wisdom for today. That gratitude will open a crack in the door of the future.


Wow, @Avna, great post!! Beautiful.
I love the part about not pushing yourself until you come undone. 
Also, 


> How will you reconcile that fact with the idea that sufficient drive and willpower can get you anywhere? An idea which has caused me and perhaps millions of others great and entirely superfluous suffering.


Yet we all have so many talents, so many gifts, so many things that make us uniquely special individuals. We should celebrate who we are, what we have, and the horses we are so lucky to know. I think many people put this same onus on their horses. Trying to make them something they can never be. Yet we can have another focus, one which makes me personally much happier, which is focusing on what you are good at, and what your horse is good at. 
Conquering fears should not be about proving your own worth, but about enabling yourself to do things you want to do, and that are within your actual power.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> I hope you don't think I was feeling sorry for myself? I only meant that until a person starts to feel that creeping sense of fear, and mind you , this discussion was about fear, that is particularly more noticeable when you become older, it's easy to dismiss an older person's apparently unwarranted caution.


No, I didn't think you were feeling sorry for yourself, but if I had a magic wand I would be so tempted to return people who are starting to feel limitations to peak physiological age. So it's a good thing I don't have one, because there are all sorts of reasons why that's not necessarily the great idea it seems to be.




> There was a lady at our club's prize ride today, who rode all over the trail system and she must be in her late 70's or early 80's, AND has some kind of disease like Parkinsons, which makes her quaver/shake. Man, it must be incredibly difficult to do all she does. I mean, I was tired. and her? one wonders.


That's so fantastic! Obviously happy to ride. My MIL is in her late 70s and has such bad osteoporosis that she's regularly fracturing bones, but had never ridden a horse in all her life and really wanted to have a go. We used a ladder to get her on Sunsmart, and I led him around our farm tracks at a nice comfortable walk so she could experience what being on a horse's back was like. We weren't going to say, "No you can't, what if you break something?" as her risk is her decision, and we created a safe situation in which she could ride (although not 100% safe, but very safe). She didn't break anything and she had that experience. Bucket list! And the photos to prove it.

:cowboy:


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Avna said:


> I read an extremely interesting article once, wish I knew where it was. It was about the two different kinds of reactions to adrenaline. These are genetic and physiological and cannot be altered. One kind of person experiences an adrenaline-producing situation as a hyper-heightening of clarity of thought. "Time slows down so I can see exactly what to do and have enough time to do it in" is a very common description from this type of person. They feel extremely 'in the now", with a marvelous sense of aliveness. Most thrill-seeking, risk-taking people are in this genetic category.
> 
> The other type of person has the reaction of the world freezing up, their mind going blank, no thoughts connect. They may feel that they are free-floating without being able to control anything at all. It is terrifying and no one having this reaction wants to ever have it again.



IMO this different reaction to adrenaline is not limited to humans; perhaps this is why horses, dogs, cats, rabbits, chickens, etc have different responses to the same stimulus? Thus training must be adapted to the individual for the most effective learning to occur.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I am of the second type. I cannot fathom why people find big roller coasters enjoyable.


But, I loved @Avna's remark:




Find a bit of gratitude and joy where you are right now, is my wisdom for today. That gratitude will open a crack in the door of the future.


My father always reminded me that experiencing and acknowledging GRATITUDE was the key to a happy life.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

SueC said:


> hug


Yo, you just set of my flight or fight with that word! At least it's not as insufferable as the kiss in greeting!  At my creaky age of 28 I can't take this adrenaline pls make it stahp!

But... I really like this thread. Finalcanter I have an irrational fear of mounting, specifically with the stirrup. Even typing about it is just making things worse haha! Out of mind and all that advice... You are not alone. I always imagine there's me, being dragged by a galloping giant, her back hooves reconstructing my face in a way that some celebrities would pay millions to have done professionally. 

My friend weights 50kg (110lbs) and is 5'4 (162cm) but it's not that that puts her at a disadvantage. It's the fact she lacks _presence_ due to her inexperience. Just because I weigh more than her doesn't change my technique. I don't try bully the horse or out-pull them. I can't do that even if I tried... they would tank off regardless. Because she thinks the same as you - she also acts that way, like porcelain. Like today, the horse she was leading was constantly pulling her around and her reaction? To pull back until they ended up in a pulling war she obviously couldn't win and he began to trot off with her... she used the excuse it was because she was small and light. I showed her how to _NOT train a horse_ to learn to drag you around and within 10 minutes he was leading around lovely on the trail and she never had to pull again, especially important as she has to learn to lead on the roads. My technique isn't different just because I'm heavier or bigger than her... She can control a horse just as well as me once she knows how. Frankly I'm offended that you think a kick in the face would be worse for you than for me  (Not really <3). Also while a bite might bruise your organs what if the "overweight" person got a chunk taken OFF, an open infected wound that led to and died of septicaemia? The skinny person might break their back just as much as the next person who falls out of an aeroplane. Too many variables. 

I also was petrified of being bolted on and then I learned, with the help of some amazing people right next to me, how to work the fresh horse (I'm talking fresh not tic-tac-ottb level). She wasn't even that bad but it was a bit scary when you're not used to it. I know how to canter? Check. I know how to use my reins? Check. I have two working eyeballs? Check. As long as we're not ambushed by wookies or something surely I can cope? So I have faith in my ability to deal with it a lot more than anything. But mounting? Heh, get outta here.... xD

Anyway am having a jolly drink and wanted to say I really enjoyed this read. Good luck OP and be safe!


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I am of the second type. I cannot fathom why people find big roller coasters enjoyable.
> 
> 
> But, I loved @Avna's remark:
> ...


I have always LOVED roller coasters!! Hands in the air, blood-curdling scream, huge smile, flying off the seat, YES!! 

Hmm. Somehow I never thought of myself as the thrill-seeker type though. But the sensation of time slowing down is a very accurate description of the feeling. I remember getting tossed one time by my big Percheron/Arab when I was first starting him under saddle and he saw a bucket(!) on the ground :shock: I remember having so much time to think as I was flying through the air; wishing I was in a sand arena, glad I had a helmet on, hoping I didn't hit a rock, wondering if I would_ ever _land, tucking into a ball and debating what body part was better to hit the ground with...But since I landed about 15 feet away from him, I figured that I was just in the air a long time...

GRATITUDE never goes out of style


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

AnitaAnne said:


> I have always LOVED roller coasters!! Hands in the air, blood-curdling scream, huge smile, flying off the seat, YES!!
> 
> Hmm. Somehow I never thought of myself as the thrill-seeker type though. But the sensation of time slowing down is a very accurate description of the feeling. I remember getting tossed one time by my big Percheron/Arab when I was first starting him under saddle and he saw a bucket(!) on the ground :shock: I remember having so much time to think as I was flying through the air; wishing I was in a sand arena, glad I had a helmet on, hoping I didn't hit a rock, wondering if I would_ ever _land, tucking into a ball and debating what body part was better to hit the ground with...But since I landed about 15 feet away from him, I figured that I was just in the air a long time...
> 
> GRATITUDE never goes out of style


Ah, you are in category one, which is exactly what I would have guessed.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Kalraii said:


> ...My friend weights 50kg (110lbs) and is 5'4 (162cm) but it's not that that puts her at a disadvantage. It's the fact she lacks _presence_ due to her inexperience...


 Very true. Command presence. The air of authority. Meeting my horse "Bandit" and telling him, "_Nice to meet you. I'm SHERIFF Bob!_" :rofl: It is why my wife can walk into the corral and have the horses clear a path, while my DIL walks in...and ends up going around the horses.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

AnitaAnne said:


> But the sensation of time slowing down is a very accurate description of the feeling. I remember getting tossed one time by my big Percheron/Arab when I was first starting him under saddle...


For me, it was when my horse clipped the top of a fence, jumping into a field, and landing awkwardly on her front feet. She buckled, which led to my tipping forward onto her neck. She recovered and took off at a gallop to keep up with the horse in front of her. I had not recovered and was still hugging her neck, going close to 30 mph, and having to make a decision: Ride it out like this (off balance and without rein control), or try to get upright. I opted for "trying to get upright" - and even pulled it off. 

There couldn't have been more than 10 seconds between "jump" and "top of the hill", but as I recall it, it might as well have been a minute.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Avna said:


> Ah, you are in category one, which is exactly what I would have guessed.


Interesting comment...a bit curious to why? (other than the Roller coaster post)


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Kalraii said:


> Yo, you just set of my flight or fight with that word! At least it's not as insufferable as the kiss in greeting!  At my creaky age of 28 I can't take this adrenaline pls make it stahp!


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Yep, that's the culture my DH came from! And he really cringed when he watched _My Big Fat Greek Wedding_. :rofl:

Here, have a cup of tea! ;-) We can both have one of those.

Kind regards

The Resident :hug: Person


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

AnitaAnne said:


> I have always LOVED roller coasters!! Hands in the air, blood-curdling scream, huge smile, flying off the seat, YES!!


It's not too late to go bungee jumping, m'dear! ;-) Of course, you may have already done it...

For a more sedate experience, there's always hot air ballooning! 

Creates interesting perspectives, we did it as a significant birthday treat.









http://photography.coulstock.id.au/g...img_7208-1.jpg









http://photography.coulstock.id.au/g...img_7183-1.jpg









http://photography.coulstock.id.au/g...img_7182-1.jpg


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

The older I get and the more disabled I get, the worse my fear that I won't be able to ride gets. Therefore I am driven to ride more. I want to get every little bit of joy this world has to offer me, and riding is one of them. It is one of the main things I live for.

Many people don't feel the same joy in riding others do. If you are that way, just assess risk versus benefit. You don't have to do a hobby you don't like.

You do need to learn "horse language". I have never had a horse bite or kick me without telling me first. Once I learned the language, such incidences are rare.

My horse keeps me going. She gives me a reason to be.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> I am of the second type. I cannot fathom why people find big roller coasters enjoyable.


 
I am of the first type. And I hate roller coasters. Never been a thrill seeker. Given the choice, I prefer my adrenaline in a slow drip. Days long excursions into rough country and such.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I have just come out of a very bad relationship with a rebound horse. My beautiful Suffolk Punch mare Phoenix (some of you may remember her) became lame last year and was diagnosed as a wobbler stage 2 and has been sadly retired as a paddock mate. I was absolutely gutted as she has always been my dream horse.


Long story short I rushed out and bought another riding horse while still spinning over Phee Phee's prognosis. I decided that I wanted something with plenty of bone, more athletic than Phee Pee and a gelding. I found a gelding that pretty much fit the bill on an auction site, traveled up to him three weekends in a row, did some riding, handling etc and bought him. He was bigger than I wanted to go 16.1hh and a colored Irish draft x Stationbred - very striking, very handsome. He was listed as needing a strong experienced rider which I consider myself to be.


He was very under weight when I got him so in the first two weeks I had him I had his feet done, teeth done, back checked, wormed him and just did lots of ground work and handling. I then started very light riding as I began to build up his condition. We had 6 weeks of pretty much trouble free riding however he was prone to extreme spooking or as I fondly call it "teleporting". One minute you would be walking along and then he would see something that frightened him and and suddenly we would be on other side of the road facing in completely the opposite direction with me hanging on for dear life until I managed to bring him back around. Seeing as he was so very spooky and reactionary I continued with lots of ground work.


And then one day I lead him to my normal mounting point (just a bank on the side of the road) and just as my bum touched the saddle he let rip! He bucked like a bronco until he got me off and then once I was on the ground he proceeded to jump on top of me. Fortunately I was able to curl into a ball and he only landed on the one leg. 8 weeks later I still have two hoof prints on my leg and a large hematoma behind my knee and have suffered some quite serious nerve damage. I consider myself very lucky that I got off so lightly. I caught him once I was able to get my breath back and we then proceeded to go for a trouble free ride.


It was a couple of days before I was able to get my leg working well enough to go for another ride and when it came time to get on him I was absolutely terrified. I could hear my heart beating in my head and my whole body shook. It took everything I had to make myself get back on that horse. I thought it would get better but every time I knew I had to get on that horse my anxiety levels would start to creep up. The funny thing is as soon as I was safely in the saddle all of my fears completely disappeared and I felt strong and confident enough to handle what ever was thrown at me. 



A couple of weeks ago I rode one of my friends trekking horses - you couldn't get a quieter more relaxed horse than this push button trekking horse. But again as soon as I got beside him my heart started beating so hard and fast I could hear it and my whole body started to shake. I made myself get on the horse as quickly as possible to prevent my anxiety from ramping up to unmanageable levels and once again as soon as I was in the saddle I immediately felt back in control and relaxed.


I am hoping that my mounting anxieties will ease with time and in the meantime I just have to focus on the pleasure part of the ride rather than the fear.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

I get it! There can be days when I feel fearless and I decide to work with Justice and lunge him. Then we can get out and I actually try to lunge him and he will act up or throw the littlest fit and I get to the point where I let go of his lunge line and stand by a tree. Its like I get paralyed by the fear that he will hurt me. I get really scared of him sometimes. For stupid little reasons too. I am a small person compared to him and if the thought that he is gonna kick me in the head even enters my mind, I bail. Its our flight or fight instinct. Its up to me in the end, bail and let him get away from me, or cowgirl up!


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

SueC said:


> It's not too late to go bungee jumping, m'dear! ;-) Of course, you may have already done it...
> 
> For a more sedate experience, there's always hot air ballooning!
> 
> ...


Might be a little old for bungee jumping, however zip-lining sounds like a blast 

Those pictures are amazing! What fun to go up in a balloon, so peaceful. I guess there is some danger to it; one might wind up in Oz :biglaugh:

Flying over jumps at speed was my passion as a teen/young adult. Visions of National Velvet dancing in my head. I remember my instructor telling me to slow the horse down, but I often pretended I couldn't :rofl: I wonder if he knew that I could but didn't? I probably gave the poor man a headache, but he always put me on any new horses that came into the program. 

Ahh, to be young again...


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

AnitaAnne said:


> Might be a little old for bungee jumping, however zip-lining sounds like a blast


Like this? We did that once at this place in Tasmania. Very high up and very like a bird! 






I can highly recommend it!




> Those pictures are amazing! What fun to go up in a balloon, so peaceful. I guess there is some danger to it; one might wind up in Oz :biglaugh:


:rofl: And to wind up in Oz, you'll have to be a Wizard! ;-) If you come to Oz, we'll go hot air ballooning with you. Of course, you'll have plenty of hot air balloons in the US too. The thing is, you have to get up really really early in the morning because you start flying at dawn, it's the safest time, the least breezes. And you kind of just float along slowly, within cooee of the ground, very different from an aeroplane. You can see dogs and horses and cattle clearly on the ground!









http://photography.coulstock.id.au/gallery/landscape/photos/img_7189-1.jpg









http://photography.coulstock.id.au/gallery/landscape/photos/img_7196-1.jpg









http://photography.coulstock.id.au/gallery/landscape/photos/img_7245-1.jpg









http://photography.coulstock.id.au/gallery/landscape/photos/img_7257-1.jpg

Sorry if anyone actually has to click the hyperlinks because of the browser thingy with http addresses. Pale Moon shows up all the http photos too though.

Definitely take your camera if hot-air ballooning, it's a really unique view of the Earth's surface...




> Flying over jumps at speed was my passion as a teen/young adult. Visions of National Velvet dancing in my head. I remember my instructor telling me to slow the horse down, but I often pretended I couldn't :rofl: I wonder if he knew that I could but didn't? I probably gave the poor man a headache, but he always put me on any new horses that came into the program.
> 
> Ahh, to be young again...


Ah, but your mind is young, and it is your personal cathedral!  Anyway, I think you'd be great fun to ride with! We'd probably laugh so much we'd fall off our horses.

:falloff::falloff: :rofl: :rofl:

And then we'd have more data points for that research project of ours!


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## Finalcanter (Apr 15, 2013)

Wow- this thread blew up overnight! I will be reading through the comments after work but in any case I do want to thank you all for adding your say into this thread/subject! I might not get to everyone because I'm pretty tired after work to stare at the computer for a few hours BUT you're voices are definitely heard! 

Thanks


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

I think it's important to always that worry somewhere because that's what will help you to always be careful and less likely to become complaisant. It's unhealthy to allow it to get to the extreme it's taken you though. I would go out and find people who you admire or look up to in your barn. Go have a chat with them and see how they handle it and get a feel of how you can better mentally coach yourself down to a health level of cautiousness.


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