# I have fallen hopelessly in love with a saddle...



## chelstucker (Jun 17, 2014)

Teskey's Saddle Shop: SHERI CERVI CROWN C BARREL SADDLE

What can anyone tell me about Martin saddles?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

You'd think for an almost $4K saddle, they could at least get the gullet measurement right. 8.5" gullet would make it wider than a draft tree. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

For a barrel saddle I'm surprised the skirt is so big and square.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Actually, big skirts help prevent saddle roll.


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## Aspen1 (Dec 16, 2013)

Sheri Cervi has a video explaining her philosophy of saddle fit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4iVhzeegyk She uses shims under the front to "make it as wide as the back". She doesn't understand the idea that the bars have twist in them to adjust for that - they aren't straight. And she doesn't seem to understand that she is making a bridge, even a slight one, under the bar by having a shim with an edge on it. But that explains why her saddles have such a wide gullet. 

At least she talks about putting the saddle behind the shoulder blade, not on top of it. Her success shows that having the saddle behind the shoulder blade works.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Saddlebag said:


> Actually, big skirts help prevent saddle roll.


As a horse bends going around a barrel the skirt poking them in the flank wouldn't be nice.


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Buy it, use it for 10 days, then send it back for a full refund! :wink:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MiniMom24 (Mar 13, 2013)

DraftyAiresMum, the size of the gullet is correct. Love Martins. They are known for a great fit. They are also the only maker that I know of that makes saddles with 8+ gullets. I know some actually come in 10" (which my mare needs). They are very popular saddles and very very well made. The bars of the saddle have allot of flare allowing them to reach 10" and still fit regular horses.


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## MiniMom24 (Mar 13, 2013)

More on Martin. Martin Saddlery


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

If the saddle has a true 10" gullet, I'm sorry, but that will _not_ fit any non-draft horse I've ever seen unless you have 2+ inches of padding under there.

I have ridden some truly massive QHs in my lifetime and never had a single one that needed more than a 7.5 inch gullet.


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## SummerShy (Aug 3, 2014)

It's REALLY pretty.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Martin's website lists gullets sizes of 6.5" Standard, 6.75", 7", 7.5" for the Sheri Cervi Crown C Barrel saddle:

Martin Saddlery

My Clinton Anderson saddle was made by Martin. Love the saddle and it is well built, but it was too wide for my slender Arabian. Too much flare, however, is as much a fault as too little...it means less contact, less weight distribution and more slip.


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## Cynical25 (Mar 7, 2013)

Lovely! I wonder if it was a miss-type on the gullet size - call and ask! I'm sure they'd be willing to send additional pics. The Martin's I've ridden in were extremely well made, but that was years ago; haven't seen todays quality.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> You'd think for an almost $4K saddle, they could at least get the gullet measurement right. 8.5" gullet would make it wider than a draft tree.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Martin has a different way of measuring and fitting trees than most other saddle makers. So yes, when they say it is an 8.5" gullet, that is what they mean. They measure it on the bare tree, whereas most other saddle companies measure their finished product. 

And remember: A Martin Crown C is designed to fit completely behind the shoulder. Most other western saddles are designed to sit slightly on the shoulder. So that's another difference in why you need larger gullet sizes with the Crown C. Their angle (degrees) on the bar is different too. I believe they have a 100 degree bar. In comparison, a "regular" Brittany Pozzi saddle is a 90, made by Double J. 

If you are going to fit a Martin saddle "by the books", then expect to get a new saddle every 6 months to a year. Their philosophy is to eliminate muscle atrophy so that the horse can build their topline. As your horse changes, you will need to change your saddle. When your horse is in-between saddle sizes, you use shims to keep it sitting level. Eventually your horse will level out, but it takes a while to get to that point. 

And again, their way of fitting is much different than most other saddle makers. And you have to learn how to do the shimming in order to follow it right. 

I tried a couple Martin saddles on my horse when I was saddle shopping and I personally just did not care for how it fit. And I am not really a fan of their fitting method. 

But it works great for some people and they are well-made saddles.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

MiniMom24 said:


> I know some actually come in 10" (which my mare needs). They are very popular saddles and very very well made. The bars of the saddle have allot of flare allowing them to reach 10" and still fit regular horses.


Have you ever measured your saddle?

A martin with a 10" gullet is measured on the bare tree; not the finished product. So you probably won't get a 10" gullet measurment on the finished product. It will be less. 

Just FYI.

And If I am not mistaken, Martin Crown C's have pretty much ZERO flare in the tree. They just use a different angle (as I stated above) around 100 degrees.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

beau159 said:


> Martin has a different way of measuring and fitting trees than most other saddle makers. So yes, when they say it is an 8.5" gullet, that is what they mean. They measure it on the bare tree, whereas most other saddle companies measure their finished product.
> 
> And remember: A Martin Crown C is designed to fit completely behind the shoulder. Most other western saddles are designed to sit slightly on the shoulder....


I've never heard of a western saddle design to sit ON the shoulder. I've always heard to use the front concho as an approximation of where the tree begins, and have that behind the shoulder. Anything in front of that is not weight bearing, so the shoulder should slide freely underneath it.

If you did put the saddle tree on the shoulder, you would need it wider, not narrower. This is a pretty typical saddle tree placement, per both Ed Steele and SouthernTrails, on Mia:



















Her explanation ("you are behind the shoulder blade" "used to throw my saddle on the withers"):

Sherry Cervi Explains Saddle Fit & Using 'Shims' - YouTube

Other than a 7.5" gullet option, what Martin offers is entirely standard: 6.5, 6.75 & 7 inch gullets. Abetta's trail saddle, for example, comes in 6 1/2" for Standard and 7" for Wide - Abetta Nylon Saddle | Nylon Saddle by Abetta











This illustration comes from the Nikkel's website:










They say: *Putting it all together - how it works in real life*

As the leg extends, the shoulder blade moves back. Because it is not solid compared to the rib cage, it has the option of angling in and out as it moves. If the front bar tip is well designed, it guides that back tip of the shoulder blade underneath the bar during the time that the leg is extended the farthest. Because the leg isn’t weighted at that stage, the muscle isn’t compressed. By the time the leg has weight on it again, it is back out from under the front bar tip, away from possible compressive forces. This is how a well designed bar can sit right behind the shoulder blade, not interfere with its movement and not cause damage to the horse.​Movement of the shoulder blades and saddle fit


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> I've never heard of a western saddle design to sit ON the shoulder. I've always heard to use the front concho as an approximation of where the tree begins, and have that behind the shoulder. Anything in front of that is not weight bearing, so the shoulder should slide freely underneath it.
> 
> If you did put the saddle tree on the shoulder, you would need it wider, not narrower. This is a pretty typical saddle tree placement, per both Ed Steele and SouthernTrails, on Mia:


You missed my entire point bsms. 

Martin Crown C saddles _fit differently _and _sit differently_ than other saddles in the way they are designed. Give Brian a call at Crown C and you will come to understand how they are different than other saddle makers. 

And remember: Just because the Crown C says they have an 8.5" gullet, that is not the finished product measurement. That is a bare tree measurement. 

Ed Steele saddle trees are not the same as a Crown C tree and they won't fit the same. No two trees made by different saddle makers will fit the same, so you cannot compare apples to oranges.

I don't place my saddle *on* the shoulder either because you don't want to restrict the movement, but often times when I get done riding, it has worked it's way closer to the shoulder because that is where it likes to sit. 



bsms said:


> Other than a 7.5" gullet option, what Martin offers is entirely standard: 6.5, 6.75 & 7 inch gullets.


If you work directly with Brian at Martin to get a custom fit for your horse, they absolutely come in much larger gullet sizes. 

I do believe Sherry Cervi uses somewhere around a 9" or a 9.5" on Stingray.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I think you are missing my point: Cervi says she has learned to put the saddle behind the shoulder instead of on it. Behind is the way every saddle tree maker I've talked to assumes the saddle will be used. IOW, her 'philosophy' for saddle placement is now what everyone else's has been all along.

Further, for the saddle to go over the shoulder, it would need to be wider, not narrower. By positioning the saddle where she now does, she would need a smaller saddle. Not bigger. So there would be no reason to build a hugely wide saddle and then shim it, although that may still be what she is doing.

But if someone orders a Martin Crown C from a store, it will be in standard sizes, similar to what Abetta offers.

The HorseSaddleShop says of the Martin Crown C:

"_Designed by olympian and two time world champion barrel racer, Sherry Cervi, this Crown C barrel saddle is built to give you and your horse a competitive edge in a sport where getting the win is determined in hundredths of a second. 

Martin's exclusive AXIS tree is designed for more freedom in your horse's shoulders, allowing him unrestricted range of motion and promoting natural muscle development - achieved through greater bar flare at the tips._"

13.5" to 14.5" Martin Saddlery Sherry Cervi Crown C Barrel Racer mr97MDS

This company specifies that it uses the Axis tree:

"Tree: AXIS True Fit with Quarter Horse bars"

Martin Crown C Cervi Barrel Racer - 14.5" Finished Seat

A place called Coolhorse Saddles Tack also specifically says it uses an Axis tree.

The Axis tree boasts of using more flare, not less. Of course, the HSS folks could be wrong, as could the other sites. Since I already have a saddle, I'm not going to call Martin and pester them with questions about a saddle I have no intention of buying...but Martin's own website offers it is standard gullet widths and says nothing about using something other than the Axis tree that they boast about. If you buy one off of NRS, you will get a 7" gullet.

Gullet width should always be based on the bare tree. That is why it is impossible to know the gullet width by measurement of a finished saddle. You have to trust the folks who put the tree into the saddle about its gullet size. You can take a measurement and guess, but with 1/4" steps in sizes, it is impossible to know by measuring a finished saddle.

Our mustang Cowboy has a very short and very broad back combined with narrow shoulders. We need to shim a semi-quarter horse saddle to prevent it from moving on top of his shoulders. Because of his size, we normally use a narrow Australian saddle that is only 22" long, but it is his pear shaped body that requires shimming. Some horses do require special fitting. 

But if the saddle does slide forward onto Cowboy's shoulders, it hurts. He becomes quite agitated. I don't understand how anyone could throw their saddle on top of their horse's shoulder and expect top performance, and I'm shocked that Cervi didn't know that at an early age.

"_Ed Steele saddle trees are not the same as a Crown C tree and they won't fit the same. No two trees made by different saddle makers will fit the same, so you cannot compare apples to oranges._"

I'm not saying Martin and Steele use interchangeable trees. However, their ideas of where a saddle goes on a horse are the same. Steele makes so many trees that one of them probably does come close to a Martin Axis design, which seems to be to use a lot of flare. I think too much flare is a bad idea, although I'd rather have too much than too little.

This was too much flare and rock on Mia, although it matches the Arabian tree in our Circle Y Mojave perfectly:










The good news is that it doesn't pinch, but the downside is that it distributes the weight over a smaller area.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> Further, for the saddle to go over the shoulder, it would need to be wider, not narrower. By positioning the saddle where she now does, she would need a smaller saddle. Not bigger. So there would be no reason to build a hugely wide saddle and then shim it, although that may still be what she is doing.


In a really simplified description, _yes_, that is what they are doing. And that is why I have stated several times that Martin has a different way of saddle fitting that most other saddle fitters. 

I myself am not a fan of the idea, but I know many people who use Martin saddles (and their very specific fitting philosophy) with great success.


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## MiniMom24 (Mar 13, 2013)

Most of the Martins do come in the standard size, but you can also call them and they will make a custom 9" or 10" if that is what you need. But like beau159 said, the way the measure their tree and the way their tree is built is completely different from other saddles. Do call Brian if you have more questions. He can explain everything in better detail.


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