# Western Dressage



## mildot

Allright, don't crucify me if this has been beaten to death. I did a search a couple of different ways and didn't find anything on it.

Anyway, as a classical dressage enthusiast, I found the new western dressage discipline to be an interesting discipline for western riders. It looks like it can be used as a discipline in and of itself and as a crossover/training/development tool by riders who focus on other western disciplines.

Hell, I may try it with traditional dressage tack just to see how my Appendix QH (whose only ever been ridden to classical dressage and english aids/cues) would score. I would think the judges comments would be helpful no matter what.

Here is some more information
http://www.usef.org/documents/breeds/morgan/WesternDressage/JudgingGuidelines.pdf

Horsetrader.com News » Article » What’s ‘Western dressage’ all about?

Interested in what you all think


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## gigem88

Have you seen the Pam Grace Western Dressage saddle? It's very interesting to look at!


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## Ink

I don't know. It just looks odd to me for a western horse to carry himself so elevated. I know they have to do it to get those more advanced manuvers, but still what's the point if it's going to be the exact same thing but with different tack?










Here's the saddle. I have to admit those knee blocks would make life a whole lot easier. No more chair seat with those suckers!


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## mildot

Ink said:


> I don't know. It just looks odd to me for a western horse to carry himself so elevated. I know they have to do it to get those more advanced manuvers, but still what's the point if it's going to be the exact same thing but with different tack?


I don't understand the mentality that english is THIS headset and western is THAT headset. The head goes where it goes depending on the horse's breed/conformation and level of fitness and training.

When horses work in true collection at the highest levels of dressage, the topline is already strong enough to hold the neck higher while still have the haunches lower and the back round. At lower levels of skill and fitness, the head carriage tends to be lower while allowing for breed and conformation differences.

In short, the head goes where it goes when the animal is working round, relaxed, and on the bit.

If you read the USEF western dressage judging criteria, I think the explanation is in there.

And the point is to provide western riders with a medium to have their horses judged on the classical training scale while respecting their choices of tack. Seems simple enough to me.


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## Ink

mildot said:


> I don't understand the mentality that english is THIS headset and western is THAT headset. The head goes where it goes depending on the horse's breed/conformation and level of fitness and training.


Well most western horses _are_ bred to go with a naturally lower headset, at least when it comes to the traditional stock horse breeds. I'll give you that Morgans, which is where this idea originated if I remember right, do work their western classes with a more elevated frame. 

Don't get me wrong, I've started to dabble in Dressage myself in the past year or so. My poor mare mare has to put up with me swapping back and forth between the two. It's definitely benefited her, but at the same time, she's much better suited for the western riding than dressage. 

I have the utmost respect for dressage riders. I know you have to get into a more elevated, collected frame to be able to perform at the upper levels. That being said, I still don't get it lol. Dressage originated as a test for cavalry horses, because in a battle situation you would need to be able to control every part of your horses body at the slightest cue. This is a huge difference from the origins of the western cow horse who had to be able to think and react for himself to an extent to be able to work the cattle effectively. 

OK so I know the origins of the western horse have little to nothing at all to do with a _*lot *_of the western classes out there today, but this it totally taking a 180 to the original intentions of the western horse. 

I also say western already had it's own form of dressage. It's called reining; perhaps you've heard of it :lol:



Actually I think it's an interesting idea. I'm just playing devil's advocate a little bit. No fun having a discussion if everyone agrees right :twisted:

This kind of explains it I suppose. Skip ahead to about the 3:20 mark to see the western dressage demonstration:


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## mildot

I understand where you are coming from.

I'm sure some will jump at the idea and some will wonder what can they get out of it.

It's just another option for western riders.


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## bsms

I don't see the need for it, but there are lots of equine sports that don't do much for me. If someone enjoys it and wants to spend time training their horse to do it...at least they are riding and training their horse!

But it honestly seems a bit conflicted to me. Western riding, as Ink points out, has traditionally put more emphasis on the horse being a decision-making part of the team. Many of the jobs on a ranch need the horse to think and initiate action, rather than respond to rider cues.

Collected gaits, as opposed to momentary gathering or 'collection', work in an arena. I'm not saying it is wrong, but it isn't exactly rooted in western life. For my part, I'd rather keep dressage as dressage, and keep western riding oriented to life in the west (ranch & trail work).

This just does NOT make me think of ranch work:


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## GotaDunQH

mildot said:


> I don't understand the mentality that english is THIS headset and western is THAT headset. The head goes where it goes depending on the horse's breed/conformation and level of fitness and training.
> 
> When horses work in true collection at the highest levels of dressage, the topline is already strong enough to hold the neck higher while still have the haunches lower and the back round. At lower levels of skill and fitness, the head carriage tends to be lower while allowing for breed and conformation differences.
> 
> In short, the head goes where it goes when the animal is working round, relaxed, and on the bit.
> 
> If you read the USEF western dressage judging criteria, I think the explanation is in there.
> 
> And the point is to provide western riders with a medium to have their horses judged on the classical training scale while respecting their choices of tack. Seems simple enough to me.


Not a fan of western dressage, and we already have a class that is pretty much the same thing....Western Horsemanship. The only difference is the Horsemanship patterns are not as long as a dressage test, but ALL of the elements are there. Most people like to think that reining is like dressage but it isn't...not at all.

Horsemanship consists of a pattern with markers and/or cones (like dressage letters) and certain manuevers are to be performed PRECISELY at those markers, extension at all gaits are required if the pattern calls for it, straight lines, circles, across the diagonals, halts, turns, reinbacks etc. The judge is looking for preciseness, accuracy of he pattern, definition in changes of stride extensions, no overt cueing from the rider and seamless flow through the pattern. This is why I have no use for Western Dressage, and YES it IS to be ridden on a shorter rein and "headset" does not matter.


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## Stillstandin

I am not sure about the sport of Western Dressage but...I grew up riding both English and Western (and with Morgans). I have successfully used dressage as a training tool for both my barrel horses and more recently with my penning horses. I have worked with dressage coaches, sometimes in proper dressage tack sometimes in my western tack. On a dare at a small open show I did do a dressage test with my barrel horse in full western tack. That was years ago though, long before they ever came out with Western Dressage.
To me dressage is training and something that I enjoy doing with my so called western horses. I like what it teaches them. I like the strength it develops in both my horses and myself. But I don't think I would ever compete in it, I am too addicted to speed.


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## Ink

GotaDunQH said:


> Most people like to think that reining is like dressage but it isn't...not at all.


I disagree with that. In the sense that the horse has to perform a prescribed series of movements with subtle cues from the rider with each movement being scored individually, I'd say that's pretty close to a dressage test in theory. Sure the reining horse isn't performing at all three gaits, but they still have to do specialized maneuvers (i.e. spins, lead changes, roll backs). Plus reining does have collection and extention with the big fast small slow canter circles, and uses cones as markers as well. 

Not to mention both reining and dressage have freestyle classes where you can make up your own pattern set to music (don't see too much of that with horsemanship :wink. I'm not trying to down play horsemanship. Like you said it is similar to dressage in its own ways too. But to say reining isn't like dressage _at all _just isn't fair. In terms of length of the patter and making use of the entire arena, I'd even argue that it's more similar than horsemanship in many ways.


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## GotaDunQH

Ink said:


> I disagree with that. In the sense that the horse has to perform a prescribed series of movements with subtle cues from the rider with each movement being scored individually, I'd say that's pretty close to a dressage test in theory. Sure the reining horse isn't performing at all three gaits, but they still have to do specialized maneuvers (i.e. spins, lead changes, roll backs). Plus reining does have collection and extention with the big fast small slow canter circles, and uses cones as markers as well.
> 
> Not to mention both reining and dressage have freestyle classes where you can make up your own pattern set to music (don't see too much of that with horsemanship :wink. I'm not trying to down play horsemanship. Like you said it is similar to dressage in its own ways too. But to say reining isn't like dressage _at all _just isn't fair. In terms of length of the patter and making use of the entire arena, I'd even argue that it's more similar than horsemanship in many ways.


Yea, but the difference IS...dressage pays alot of attention to the trot....there is no trot in reining. Reining is all about the 3rd gait, whereas both Horsemanship and Dressage utilizes all 3 gaits.

SO in that aspect, I disagree wholeheartedly....but that's cool.


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## mildot

GotaDunQH said:


> Horsemanship consists of a pattern with markers and/or cones (like dressage letters) and certain manuevers are to be performed PRECISELY at those markers, extension at all gaits are required if the pattern calls for it, straight lines, circles, across the diagonals, halts, turns, reinbacks etc. The judge is looking for preciseness, accuracy of he pattern, definition in changes of stride extensions, no overt cueing from the rider and seamless flow through the pattern.


Learned something new today.

One question, does horsemanship have levels of increasing difficulty?


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## mildot

Stillstandin said:


> To me dressage is training and something that I enjoy doing with my so called western horses. I like what it teaches them. I like *the strength it develops in both my horses and myself*.


So, so many miss this essential point.


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## bsms

Hmmm. If you can't train strength in a western horse without teaching it dressage, you are doing something wrong. Dressage has a somewhat different philosophy than normally used in western riding, and a very different end goal.

That is why I prefer to keep them separate. It makes about as much sense to me as adding roping or cutting to a dressage test, and calling that 'western dressage'. Heck, I'd prefer it that way...

But if folks have fun & spend time riding, let 'em at it.:?


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## Stillstandin

I am not saying you can't train a western horse for strength without using dressage. I am just saying what I like to do with my horses because of my background in both english and western. To me the end goal is a well trained, responsive, athletic, fit horse no matter what discipline you ride.


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## GotaDunQH

mildot said:


> Learned something new today.
> 
> One question, does horsemanship have levels of increasing difficulty?


The patterns vary between the show divisions. Like Novice Amateur and Novice youth patterns won't be as complicated as the Amateur, Amateur Select and Youth patterns. The patterns at the Congress and World Shows are usually pretty tough and detailed.


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## mildot

GotaDunQH said:


> The patterns vary between the show divisions. Like Novice Amateur and Novice youth patterns won't be as complicated as the Amateur, Amateur Select and Youth patterns. The patterns at the Congress and World Shows are usually pretty tough and detailed.


OK, I understand that part.

Now, what about the difficulty of the horse's movements? Does that increase as well?

For example in dressage the patterns get more complex as you move up (there are more movements to remember and perform), but also the difficulty of the movements increases.

OK, I think I found my answer.....http://gohorseshow.com/article/AQHA/AQHA/Breaking_Down_the_Congress_Patterns_Horsemanship/32544

All I will say is that AQHA horsemanship seems different enough from western dressage (particularly in the judging) that a rider will get some benefit from both.


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## nrhareiner

If you want to do Dressage then do dressage and do it as it was intended. If you want to ride wester then pick a discipline that fits western. Do not mix the 2. TO me it looks like people who can not do either have made a new event that they can do. If it ever gains popularity and gets more people and other trainers doing it they will need to find something new b/c they will not be top dog any more.

Do not even get me started on the death grip they have on the horses face.


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## mildot

nrhareiner said:


> Do not even get me started on the death grip they have on the horses face.


Look, you don't have to like this new discipline. I don't care one way or the other.

But there is no way you can tell what a death grip looks like from the photos in this thread. 

I have no idea what your riding background is or how long you've ridden horses with rein contact. But your statement is the kind I often see made by people who have never ridden in anything other than some shank bit with draped reins and have no idea how to ride with contact with a soft hand. All they see is a direct line from elbow to bit and freak out.

Death grip....yeah whatever.

As to why this exists....maybe some people simply want to ride a dressage test without having to buy yet another saddle. I don't know and I don't care why someone came up with this.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

nrhareiner said:


> If you want to do Dressage then do dressage and do it as it was intended. If you want to ride wester then pick a discipline that fits western. Do not mix the 2. TO me it looks like people who can not do either have made a new event that they can do. If it ever gains popularity and gets more people and other trainers doing it they will need to find something new b/c they will not be top dog any more.
> 
> Do not even get me started on the death grip they have on the horses face.


Agreed. The horse in the pictures in this thread is not doing correct Dressage OR western. A good coach also won't care what kind of tack you are in in a Dressage lesson, as long as you are in a snaffle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner

mildot said:


> Look, you don't have to like this new discipline. I don't care one way or the other.
> 
> But there is no way you can tell what a death grip looks like from the photos in this thread.
> 
> I have no idea what your riding background is or how long you've ridden horses with rein contact. But your statement is the kind I often see made by people who have never ridden in anything other than some shank bit with draped reins and have no idea how to ride with contact with a soft hand. All they see is a direct line from elbow to bit and freak out.
> 
> Death grip....yeah whatever.
> 
> As to why this exists....maybe some people simply want to ride a dressage test without having to buy yet another saddle. I don't know and I don't care why someone came up with this.


 
I say death grip b/c I have seen too many videos on Western Dressage to call it anything but that. All my horses are trained with contact. If not they could not do what they do on a drapped rein. That is how you get that suppleness and response. 

So I will repeat. There is way too much contact for the bits they are usinig. They are not desinged to be used with any contact at all.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

Coming from a Dressage rider, its a death grip. If you cut the reins on the horse/rider posted in this thread, the rider would go tumbling off backwards.

Look at that neck!! If that's not a pulled on, ewe neck, then I don't know what is...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cruiser

I am new to dressage of any sort but you can see the rein pushing into the horses neck in the first picture, there is a dip where it is, plus her hands are in what appears to be tight fists. The horse looks hollow and forced. But that is besides the point. I think that if a western (or dressage) rider whats to try a different discipline in other tack (just like dressage in a close contact saddle but no one calls it jumping dressage) that is great opens your world to a whole bunch of possibilities. Nothing screams "western" to me, it is a money grab.


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## TimeChaser

Interesting comments from both dressage and western riders here. I currently compete in reined cow horse and am about to add western dressage to that. The tests they currently have, in my opinion, complement the work I currently do with my horse. True, we do not show in the trot/jog, but we school A LOT in it and this gives us a chance to get scored on the quality of the work we do. I also believe that "dressage" is just training. Simple as that. I have ridden with dressage trainers and reining/cow horse trainers and they say a lot of the same things. In fact, my reining trainer often does demos with a dressage trainer where they do a pattern and switch horses and ride bridleless. My goal is to be a good rider and have a well trained horse that I can show off every now and than. And I do have to do real ranch work with my horse and he darn sure better have some "dressage" in him when we are running through thick woods and have to side pass around a tree! Lol!


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## Allison Finch

Why can't western dressage allow the horse to go in the "western way"? Why do they have to try to duplicate the English frame? Yes, it may look a bit like reining, but it would incorporate much more than a reining pattern. Reiners don't do canter pirouettes, half pass etc. Yes, it may be different without the high collected english "frame", but no less interesting. A lope has a place in a western dressage test, as does a jog. The tests just needs to be written with the western horse in mind, IMO.

We have almost all seen this video. To me, it shows a great high level western dressage horse.






Cranking that western horse into a "classic dressage frame" is just wrong on too many levels, IMO.


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## mildot

I don't really see any roadblocks to riding all the movements of a 2nd level test on a loose rein and curb on a well trained horse.

Can some of you reiners take a look at the test and see if I'm crazy?

http://www.usef.org/documents/disciplines/dressage/tests/2011SecondLevelTest3.pdf


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## nrhareiner

Reading through the test a well trained reiner could do all of it on a loose rein. 

The idea of reining is not actually use the reins very much. All the maneuvers and changes in a reining patter are done with very little rein movement and all on a loose rein. The horses are trained to work off seat and leg.


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## QHriderKE

When I started hearing about "Western Dressage" I didn't see the point. Why not have the Dressage saddle and actually do Dressage how it was meant to be?

I've always said that Reining was the Western version of Dressage. It makes sense to me. Western horses are collected, but on loose rein, as Western riding is 'supposed' to be. And English horses are collected, but on contact, as English riding is 'supposed' to be. So why try and mash up the two and get a distorted result? Now that doesn't make sense. 

Next thing you know, the 'Western Dressage' riders will be wearing straw top hats and jingle bob spurs.


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## smokeslastspot

QHriderKE said:


> When I started hearing about "Western Dressage" I didn't see the point. Why not have the Dressage saddle and actually do Dressage how it was meant to be?
> 
> I've always said that Reining was the Western version of Dressage. It makes sense to me. Western horses are collected, but on loose rein, as Western riding is 'supposed' to be. And English horses are collected, but on contact, as English riding is 'supposed' to be. So why try and mash up the two and get a distorted result? Now that doesn't make sense.



Yep. To me the purpose of both reigning and dressage was to get specific movements out of the horse with as subtle a cue as possible so in that way they are the same to me. 

I have always thought of reining as "real working horse dressage" because although the goal of each is to communicate with the horse as effectively as possible, the moves of reigning are best utilized with a horse working on a ranch.


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## Two Fishies

I am totally late to the party here, but I thought I help clear some things up.  I'm new here and I'm training to compete in western dressage.

The idea behind western dressage is basically "hey, we are using dressage for training in our western tack anyway. Why not show off our skills like English riders do?"

Aside from the idea behind it, the appeal of western dressage is--for me--you couldn't find a discipline more suited for me and my horse if I'd written the rules myself.  I'll be honest, I want to show my horse in event where we can be competitive. I want to piaffe and passage. I think my mare makes a cute little dressage horse, but all the training in the world won't turn my 14.3 compact half-Morgan, half-QH into a 17+ warmblood. While classical dressage can be used on every horse, the higher levels of competitive dressage require a very specific type of horse to be competitive as does western pleasure. Unfortunately, this isn't either:










While western riding originated with ranch work, it's used on many other disciplines that don't reflect working a cow. Barrel racing and western pleasure don't reflect anything involving a cow. Dressage was designed for calvary, but dressage horses today aren't going into battle. ;-)

At least at shows around here, competitive western horsemanship horses all move like pleasure horses. And I don't want to teach my horse to more that way because it doesn't directly benefit the other disciplines I compete in the way western dressage does.

Western dressage also does not require me to relearn to ride or my horse to be totally retrained. I'm a good western rider and competent trainer, but I suuuuccck at english because I have so little experience. I take English lessons to learn, but it still requires I use different muscles and cues than western. Western dressage is a more direct way to enhance our skills as a team for riding in other western events. Classical dressage would be helpful for my horse, but western dressage is _more_ helpful.

For reining vs. western dressage, reining is a very specific discipline training for very specific skills. I love to watch reined cow horse because if you watch horses in fence work, you can see them move almost identically while working a cow as they do on a reining pattern. For example:






I already do reining with my horse, but mastering reining won't teach her every response I'd like her to have. But reining + dressage can give her more types of lateral movement to make her easier to handle in gaming events and on the trail. I want my mare to be the does-it-all type.

As for reins, western dressage calls for a little slack in the rein without losing contact. This is closer to traditional western riding than western pleasure's super long and baggy reins. The picture posted earlier in this thread had too much contact IMO, however the horse was also riding in a snaffle. You can't ride in a curb with that much contact because the bit is not designed to work the same way. It looked like a English horse in western tack, as opposed to a western horse using dressage principles.

Finally, I like the idea of combining western and english. I've seen too much hostility between riders and I think it's beneficial to have more in common.


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## Joe4d

hey looks pretty cool, anything has to be better than making their noses drag in the dirt and walking like they have arthritis in every single joint and it hurts to stand up.


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## nrhareiner

Two Fishies said:


> I am totally late to the party here, but I thought I help clear some things up.  I'm new here and I'm training to compete in western dressage.
> 
> The idea behind western dressage is basically "hey, we are using dressage for training in our western tack anyway. Why not show off our skills like English riders do?"
> 
> *Which is fine but I can and do that with all my horses esp. my reining horses. So nothing new. It all goes into making a well trained broke horse.*
> 
> Aside from the idea behind it, the appeal of western dressage is--for me--you couldn't find a discipline more suited for me and my horse if I'd written the rules myself.  I'll be honest, I want to show my horse in event where we can be competitive. I want to piaffe and passage. I think my mare makes a cute little dressage horse, but all the training in the world won't turn my 14.3 compact half-Morgan, half-QH into a 17+ warmblood. While classical dressage can be used on every horse, the higher levels of competitive dressage require a very specific type of horse to be competitive as does western pleasure. Unfortunately, this isn't either:
> 
> *Then call it what it is. An event for people who can not or do not wish to be competitive in already established disciplines so they go out and make a new one. Reminds me of the Foundation QH reg. They can not compet in AQHA or any other association so they make a new one and limite who can play. Fine I have no problem with that. Just call it what it is.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *She looks like a nice horse and no training is a bad thing. However there are a lot of events out there that you can do without needing to make a new one.*
> While western riding originated with ranch work, it's used on many other disciplines that don't reflect working a cow. Barrel racing and western pleasure don't reflect anything involving a cow.
> 
> *Yes and no. Each event startedo out on the ranch. Barrel racing was just a way to show off the speed and agility of the horse and WP was originaly from the Ranch Owner servaying his land. Needed a nice easy ride.*
> 
> Dressage was designed for calvary, but dressage horses today aren't going into battle. ;-)
> 
> *This is true but it is more about training then anything. Not just battle.*
> 
> At least at shows around here, competitive western horsemanship horses all move like pleasure horses. And I don't want to teach my horse to more that way because it doesn't directly benefit the other disciplines I compete in the way western dressage does.
> *Again I can see this but not really.* *There is more to it then just how the horse moves. Is it just what enters these events. Nothing more. Give the judge something more to look at you might be surprised.*
> 
> Western dressage also does not require me to relearn to ride or my horse to be totally retrained. I'm a good western rider and competent trainer, but I suuuuccck at english because I have so little experience. I take English lessons to learn, but it still requires I use different muscles and cues than western.
> *This is the best way to give when you say why you are doing it. However call it something new. Do not try and mix the 2 as they are too different to be one in the same.*
> 
> 
> Western dressage is a more direct way to enhance our skills as a team for riding in other western events. Classical dressage would be helpful for my horse, but western dressage is _more_ helpful.
> 
> *Not sure why you need WD to get this out of your work with your horse but if it works for you fine. That at the end of the day is what counts.*
> 
> For reining vs. western dressage, reining is a very specific discipline training for very specific skills. I love to watch reined cow horse because if you watch horses in fence work, you can see them move almost identically while working a cow as they do on a reining pattern. For example:
> 
> *This is not at all a true statement. While reining shows off a cretain set of maneuvers you first teach other things to get there. You just do not go out one day and say hay I am going to teach my horse to turn. They need a lot of foundation before you get to that point and a lot of that training is based in Dressage. So at the end of the day you tach the horse then you show what you have done by performing the maneuver. *
> 
> 2009 NRCHA Open Bridle World Champion - Lil Miss Shiney Chex - YouTube
> 
> I already do reining with my horse, but mastering reining won't teach her every response I'd like her to have.
> 
> *Not sure why not. A well trained reining horse can and does do many outher things. My reiners do reined cow horse rope to trail Western Horsemanship along with just about every other Western event out there and they do very well in all. A well trained horse is a well trained horse. No added training is really needed for most of these events. *
> But reining + dressage can give her more types of lateral movement to make her easier to handle in gaming events and on the trail. I want my mare to be the does-it-all type.
> 
> *Again if you have a well trained horse it can and will do this with out saying I need to do WD with my horse to get the end results. Now if you wish to use WD to get there fine but you can not say that you NEED it to get there.*
> 
> As for reins, western dressage calls for a little slack in the rein without losing contact. This is closer to traditional western riding than western pleasure's super long and baggy reins. The picture posted earlier in this thread had too much contact IMO, however the horse was also riding in a snaffle. You can't ride in a curb with that much contact because the bit is not designed to work the same way. It looked like a English horse in western tack, as opposed to a western horse using dressage principles.
> 
> Finally, I like the idea of combining western and english. I've seen too much hostility between riders and I think it's beneficial to have more in common.


 
First let me welcome you to the forum. Hope you enjoy it here and do not feel a good debate is anything more then that. Again welcome. 

Now off to my next coment. A curb bit should not no contact past needing to refine a cue given with leg set or rein. This is why you see so many bridleless reining runs. They have been doing that at NRHA freestyle for about 40 years. It is nothing new. 

Also I think a lot of western riders and trainers use Dressege in their training. I know my trainers do and I know I do. So again nothing new.


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## Corporal

You all realize that a non-horse person reading this thread has NOOOOOOO idea what we are talking about, don't you?!!?
I think you'll find many of us change tack on the same horse and use the same good principles of rounding the back, on the bit, and collection when we ride. Our horses really don't know the difference unless you tack hurts.
I LIKE the idea of Western Dressage. C'mon--look at the Western saddle--it has morphed from a hornless Vaquero saddle and looks _suspiciously_ like a Classical Dressage saddle, with swells in front of your thighs and with different stirrups.
A Dressage saddle is NOT an English saddle. It's just that lots of English riders also ride Dressage.
Dressage is meant for *EVERYBODY!!!*


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## ~*~anebel~*~

nrhareiner said:


> *Then call it what it is. An event for people who can not or do not wish to be competitive in already established disciplines so they go out and make a new one. Reminds me of the Foundation QH reg. They can not compet in AQHA or any other association so they make a new one and limite who can play. Fine I have no problem with that. Just call it what it is.*


This!!! This is the best I have seen anyone put it in this whole thread.
It is a made up discipline.


ETA in response to Corporal. I disagree. Good riding is good riding, regardless of tack. Good basic riding infact has nothing to do with dressage horses and riders and is not exclusive to the discipline either. Dressage is a sport that IMO starts to differentiate itself from good riding and training practices around second or third level. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, a good reiner can do a second level test. So can a good jumper, so can a good trail horse, so can a good cow horse, etc... therefore that level of training is NOT exclusive to dressage and instead falls into the category of "good riding". Dressage is a sport, it can be done well or it can be done poorly, like anything else. Calling something dressage does not make it good riding.
Good riding is meant for everyone and exists in every sport. Dressage is meant for dressage horses and riders.


----------



## GotaDunQH

Two Fishies said:


> I am totally late to the party here, but I thought I help clear some things up.  I'm new here and I'm training to compete in western dressage.
> 
> The idea behind western dressage is basically "hey, we are using dressage for training in our western tack anyway. Why not show off our skills like English riders do?"
> 
> Aside from the idea behind it, the appeal of western dressage is--for me--you couldn't find a discipline more suited for me and my horse if I'd written the rules myself.  I'll be honest, I want to show my horse in event where we can be competitive. I want to piaffe and passage. I think my mare makes a cute little dressage horse, but all the training in the world won't turn my 14.3 compact half-Morgan, half-QH into a 17+ warmblood. While classical dressage can be used on every horse, the higher levels of competitive dressage require a very specific type of horse to be competitive as does western pleasure. Unfortunately, this isn't either:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While western riding originated with ranch work, it's used on many other disciplines that don't reflect working a cow. Barrel racing and western pleasure don't reflect anything involving a cow. Dressage was designed for calvary, but dressage horses today aren't going into battle. ;-)
> 
> At least at shows around here, competitive western horsemanship horses all move like pleasure horses. And I don't want to teach my horse to more that way because it doesn't directly benefit the other disciplines I compete in the way western dressage does.
> 
> Western dressage also does not require me to relearn to ride or my horse to be totally retrained. I'm a good western rider and competent trainer, but I suuuuccck at english because I have so little experience. I take English lessons to learn, but it still requires I use different muscles and cues than western. Western dressage is a more direct way to enhance our skills as a team for riding in other western events. Classical dressage would be helpful for my horse, but western dressage is _more_ helpful.
> 
> For reining vs. western dressage, reining is a very specific discipline training for very specific skills. I love to watch reined cow horse because if you watch horses in fence work, you can see them move almost identically while working a cow as they do on a reining pattern. For example:
> 
> 2009 NRCHA Open Bridle World Champion - Lil Miss Shiney Chex - YouTube
> 
> I already do reining with my horse, but mastering reining won't teach her every response I'd like her to have. But reining + dressage can give her more types of lateral movement to make her easier to handle in gaming events and on the trail. I want my mare to be the does-it-all type.
> 
> *As for reins, western dressage calls for a little slack in the rein without losing contact. This is closer to traditional western riding than western pleasure's super long and baggy reins.* The picture posted earlier in this thread had too much contact IMO, however the horse was also riding in a snaffle. You can't ride in a curb with that much contact because the bit is not designed to work the same way. It looked like a English horse in western tack, as opposed to a western horse using dressage principles.
> 
> Finally, I like the idea of combining western and english. I've seen too much hostility between riders and I think it's beneficial to have more in common.


 
But see...in Western Horsemanship you DO NOT RIDE with a loose baggy rein, you get killed for it on the judges card. WP is WP.....WP is NOT Horsemanship, so you can not compare the two...LOL. Also, have you seen any AQHA Horsemanship patterns lately? Like from the Congress or the World show? Long ago are the days of just doing a straight line pattern at a turtle's pace. They have incorporated extensions at the jog and the lope, lots of circles, flying changes etc. At the AQHA regional show I competed at a couple years ago the Ammy Western Horsemanship pattern was like a reining pattern. It consisted of a small slow circle, 360 pivot....to a large fast circle and at the 3/4 point...you had to come back down to slow, extended jogs...it was a really cool and insane pattern and I loved it! We placed in the Top 5 for our AQHA region. If you rode this pattern like a WP go...you got NAILED for it, and also got the gate...LOL.


----------



## nrhareiner

Corporal said:


> You all realize that a non-horse person reading this thread has NOOOOOOO idea what we are talking about, don't you?!!?
> 
> *I doubt a non horse person would even be on this site. So not a big deal and if they did find it I would hope they would want to learn and would ask questions.*
> 
> 
> I think you'll find many of us change tack on the same horse and use the same good principles of rounding the back, on the bit, and collection when we ride.
> *While this is the beginning of training a western horse to collect once they are trained there is no on the bit. They do all this without the bit. This is where the BIG differance is between Western disciplines and English disciplines and Dressage.*
> 
> Our horses really don't know the difference unless you tack hurts.
> 
> *Actaully horses do know the differance between tack. If I put on a rope saddle on one of my horses with a big that I would use to rope with the horse knows it is going to rope. Same with reining or any other discipline. Each saddle is different and sits the rider in a different position.*
> 
> I LIKE the idea of Western Dressage. C'mon--look at the Western saddle--it has morphed from a hornless Vaquero saddle and looks _suspiciously_ like a Classical Dressage saddle, with swells in front of your thighs and with different stirrups.
> A Dressage saddle is NOT an English saddle. It's just that lots of English riders also ride Dressage.
> Dressage is meant for *EVERYBODY!!!*


I do agree that Dressage is a good tool to use on any horse. Once you get into western riding it is nothing more then that a tool.


----------



## Corporal

I guess we'll just have to disagree, Anabel. Dressage was invented for warfare, going back to Xenophon's day. You'll never see anybody kicked in the head today bc the rider asked for a Capriolle or Courbette, but that is EXACTLY why the airs were taught, and the discipline passed down to us.
I guess, IMHO, ANY horse gets better when the rider/trainer spends time training, even if he or she doesn't do it in the way that the Judges in the show ring expect.
I'm outta here before Anabel's horse kicks _me_ in the head, ROFL!!


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## bsms

Corporal said:


> I guess we'll just have to disagree, Anabel. Dressage was invented for warfare, going back to Xenophon's day. You'll never see anybody kicked in the head today bc the rider asked for a Capriolle or Courbette, but that is EXACTLY why the airs were taught, and the discipline passed down to us...


I'll disagree with you on this one. Dressage does NOT go back to Xenophon, unless dressage riders use a spear to assist them in vaulting on to their horse's bare back...while wearing a skirt & no undies. Much of what Xenophon wrote was not in any way applicable to dressage.

And if anyone taught a horse to leap into the air and kick for 'combat', they were fools. That would be a great way to get a horse gutted with a spear.

That doesn't in any way denigrate dressage.

I apologize for the soap box, but it is one of my pet peeves. :-x Dressage is not good riding. Dressage is based on good riding, and then goes further to achieve the aims of the sport and discipline. My signature quotes a guy famous for writing about the Forward style of riding, but to me it pretty much defines good riding - and that good riding can be expressed as dressage, steeplechase, cutting, reining, or any one of a number of other activities.

I don't necessarily dislike western dressage, I just dislike the name.


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## smrobs

I just don't understand the need for it, I guess. I'm with Anabel and NRHAreiner. A well trained horse is a well trained horse and they are either a dressage horse or a western horse. If you dilute one with the other then it becomes neither, not both.

As for needing the WD training to get a horse responsive and capable of doing other stuff....no, you really don't. You just need _good_ training. 

I train ranch type horses. Good _using_ horses that you can pretty much go and do anything on. My horses will spin, rollback, rate well in every gait, and slide when I ask of it but they wouldn't be competitive in the NRHA. They just aren't up to that level. I don't know much about dressage and couldn't pick a good horse from a great one, but my horses will half-pass and sidepass and do forehand and haunch turns...and do them well at all 3 gaits. That's not the result of some specialized training aiming them toward some made up discipline, it's just the result of good training with the goal of creating a handy and useful horse.

I'd bet my right arm, my left leg, and my firstborn child that most of those WD horses that belong to all those innovators that created the discipline are pretty much worthless for doing anything else.

The videos I've seen of the creator of the discipline were just horrible. Basically, what I saw was a guy riding a horse in a long shanked bit with contact that a good rider wouldn't need on a _snaffle_. The horse was skittering from one move to the next as if he was expecting a spur or a yank if he didn't move fast enough. The moves that I saw them doing, even though I know nothing of dressage, I could tell that they were doing them poorly.

Maybe it's just me, but that's not a goal that I would want to train toward.


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

bsms said:


> :-x Dressage is not good riding. Dressage is based on good riding, and then goes further to achieve the aims of the sport and discipline. My signature quotes a guy famous for writing about the Forward style of riding, but to me it pretty much defines good riding - and that good riding can be expressed as dressage, steeplechase, cutting, reining, or any one of a number of other activities.
> 
> I don't necessarily dislike western dressage, I just dislike the name.


 
EXACTLY!!! Thank you.


Also, Corporal, yes, you are right, riding horses was developed for warfare (in part). And the guys on the battlefield did not say "oh I ride dressage". Nope. Good riders were good riders back then, just like they are now. Regardless of discipline every horse that does well in any sport has a good foundation. It's not dressage - it's good riding. Dressage is an olympic sport and it can be done well or poorly, just like any other discipline.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

smrobs said:


> I just don't understand the need for it, I guess. I'm with Anabel and NRHAreiner. A well trained horse is a well trained horse and they are either a dressage horse or a western horse. If you dilute one with the other then it becomes neither, not both.
> 
> As for needing the WD training to get a horse responsive and capable of doing other stuff....no, you really don't. You just need _good_ training.
> 
> *I train ranch type horses. Good using horses that you can pretty much go and do anything on. My horses will spin, rollback, rate well in every gait, and slide when I ask of it but they wouldn't be competitive in the NRHA. They just aren't up to that level. I don't know much about dressage and couldn't pick a good horse from a great one, but my horses will half-pass and sidepass and do forehand and haunch turns...and do them well at all 3 gaits. That's not the result of some specialized training aiming them toward some made up discipline, it's just the result of good training with the goal of creating a handy and useful horse.*
> 
> I'd bet my right arm, my left leg, and my firstborn child that most of those WD horses that belong to all those innovators that created the discipline are pretty much worthless for doing anything else.
> 
> The videos I've seen of the creator of the discipline were just horrible. Basically, what I saw was a guy riding a horse in a long shanked bit with contact that a good rider wouldn't need on a _snaffle_. The horse was skittering from one move to the next as if he was expecting a spur or a yank if he didn't move fast enough. The moves that I saw them doing, even though I know nothing of dressage, I could tell that they were doing them poorly.
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but that's not a goal that I would want to train toward.


The bolded part I really, really, really like. Well trained horses are well trained horses. Yes, smrobs horses have a background in ranch work but they could go do a second level test, based on the good basic training they have recieved NOT based on any dressage training. Because dressage is a sport, not some end all be all training program that guarantees a good horse. Good riding does that.


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

And some video evidence to back up my point... Which of these horses is better trained??





 
OR


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## nrhareiner

smrobs said:


> I train ranch type horses. Good _using_ horses that you can pretty much go and do anything on. My horses will spin, rollback, rate well in every gait, and slide when I ask of it but they wouldn't be competitive in the NRHA. They just aren't up to that level. I don't know much about dressage and couldn't pick a good horse from a great one, but my horses will half-pass and sidepass and do forehand and haunch turns...and do them well at all 3 gaits. That's not the result of some specialized training aiming them toward some made up discipline, it's just the result of good training with the goal of creating a handy and useful horse.


For me this is where all disciplines started. Cutting started from cowboys wanting to see who had the best cutting horse. Reining started by people who wanted to see who has the best cutting horse but did not have easy accest to cattle. Same with all the disciplines. They started from good well trained horse doing every day taskts but when when cars came along and the need for horses just was not there like it had been these disciplines for lack of a better word went into the arena and rules and guidlines where put into place to judge them. Pick any discipline be it western or English. They all started from people doing everyday work on well trained horses who wanted to see who has the best trained horse.


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## GotaDunQH

bsms said:


> I'll disagree with you on this one. Dressage does NOT go back to Xenophon, unless dressage riders use a spear to assist them in vaulting on to their horse's bare back...while wearing a skirt & no undies. Much of what Xenophon wrote was not in any way applicable to dressage.
> 
> And if anyone taught a horse to leap into the air and kick for 'combat', they were fools. That would be a great way to get a horse gutted with a spear.
> 
> That doesn't in any way denigrate dressage.
> 
> *I apologize for the soap box, but it is one of my pet peeves. :-x Dressage is not good riding. Dressage is based on good riding, and then goes further to achieve the aims of the sport and discipline. My signature quotes a guy famous for writing about the Forward style of riding, but to me it pretty much defines good riding - and that good riding can be expressed as dressage, steeplechase, cutting, reining, or any one of a number of other activities.*
> 
> *I don't necessarily dislike western dressage, I just dislike the name*.


 
Love this^. People get hung up on thee word "dressage". There's dressage (which means training) on the pyramid scale. Then there's Dressage, with a capital D which is the actual discipline/competition where you see the upper level moves. Now, my horse does "dressage with a small d" according to the training scale...but he is not a Dressage horse (with a capital D). He's a well trained western horse.


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## GotaDunQH

smrobs said:


> I just don't understand the need for it, I guess. I'm with Anabel and NRHAreiner. A well trained horse is a well trained horse and they are either a dressage horse or a western horse. If you dilute one with the other then it becomes neither, not both.
> 
> As for needing the WD training to get a horse responsive and capable of doing other stuff....no, you really don't. You just need _good_ training.
> 
> I train ranch type horses. Good _using_ horses that you can pretty much go and do anything on. My horses will spin, rollback, rate well in every gait, and slide when I ask of it but they wouldn't be competitive in the NRHA. They just aren't up to that level. I don't know much about dressage and couldn't pick a good horse from a great one, but my horses will half-pass and sidepass and do forehand and haunch turns...and do them well at all 3 gaits. That's not the result of some specialized training aiming them toward some made up discipline, it's just the result of good training with the goal of creating a handy and useful horse.
> 
> *I'd bet my right arm, my left leg, and my firstborn child that most of those WD horses that belong to all those innovators that created the discipline are pretty much worthless for doing anything else.*
> 
> *The videos I've seen of the creator of the discipline were just horrible. Basically, what I saw was a guy riding a horse in a long shanked bit with contact that a good rider wouldn't need on a snaffle. The horse was skittering from one move to the next as if he was expecting a spur or a yank if he didn't move fast enough. The moves that I saw them doing, even though I know nothing of dressage, I could tell that they were doing them poorly*.
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but that's not a goal that I would want to train toward.


 
And I love this too! Those horses that didn't fit well into any discipline category so....let's do WD, throw on a western saddle, crank the reins in real tight, and have at it. Western shanked bits were NOT meant for that much contact...PLAIN AND SIMPLE. It TOTALLY goes against anything western. So to call it WESTERN Dressage really is laughable.


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## Casey02

I really liked the video allison posted, two horses so different but so much alike. I liked seeing dressage horse and western horse together as they showed in the video. But i dont know if i can jump on the wagon of western dressage. A well trained horse is a well trained horse no matter the disapline


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## bsms

If this is western dressage, leave me out!











BTW - although I sometimes advocate a 'chair seat' as being OK, I have NEVER ridden like the second video! Never, ever! :evil: Don't mean to offend anyone, and I tend to figure everyone can ride however they want, but the second video drove me nuts...


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## bsms

This doesn't do much for me either:


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## Ink

Most of the horses in those videos bsms posted just look ****ed off. I don't blame them either with the curb bit being constantly engaged like that! 

The saddle is kind of silly too. All that extra stuff to hold you in the "proper position". LOL any decent horsemanship rider can maintain a good line from shoulder, hip, to heel in a regular old western saddle. It might be nice to have stuff there to encourage the right position while you're learning, but it's still a little overkill.


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## GotaDunQH

bsms said:


> If this is western dressage, leave me out!
> 
> Western Dressage at the Morgan Grand National - YouTube
> 
> Cowboy Dressage World Champion Holiday Compadre and Free Style Reining - YouTube
> 
> BTW - although I sometimes advocate a 'chair seat' as being OK, I have NEVER ridden like the second video! Never, ever! :evil: Don't mean to offend anyone, and I tend to figure everyone can ride however they want, but the second video drove me nuts...


Yea, drove me nuts too...both vids! In the first vid, with the clinician....that has did NOT stop gnashing on the bit for one minute, and it was a snaffle...LOL. The examples from the Morgan show, nothing special there either. 

The 2nd video? That has had the slopppiest spins I think I've ever seen...stepped out in the back the whole time. 

So I agree with you.....WD? Right....


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## nrhareiner

bsms said:


> This doesn't do much for me either:
> 
> The 1st Western Dressage Saddle - YouTube


There is just so many things wrong with this. First you could not GIVE me a Circle Y saddle. I will not even go into the other issues I have with this.


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## nrhareiner

Ink said:


> Most of the horses in those videos bsms posted just look ****ed off. I don't blame them either with the curb bit being constantly engaged like that!
> 
> The saddle is kind of silly too. All that extra stuff to hold you in the "proper position". LOL any decent horsemanship rider can maintain a good line from shoulder, hip, to heel in a regular old western saddle. It might be nice to have stuff there to encourage the right position while you're learning, but it's still a little overkill.


A good saddle does not put you into the correct position it just stays out of your way.


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## smrobs

Aha, I think I might have figured it out!!

Apparently, the founder guy was at the spanish riding school for about 2 years.....
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
cleaning stalls :rofl:.


As for the saddle. Wasn't it P.T. Barnum that said "There's a sucker born every minute"?


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## GotaDunQH

nrhareiner said:


> There is just so many things wrong with this. First you could not GIVE me a Circle Y saddle. I will not even go into the other issues I have with this.


Same here!


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## smrobs

Okay, this is going just a bit off topic, but why don't you guys like Circle Y's? I've never had one, never even seen one, but since they are such a big name and they look decent in all the pictures I've seen, I would have figured that they were pretty good saddles.


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## bsms

My western saddle is a Circle Y with Arabian bars, bought used for $450. I don't like the style - too much rise to the front for my taste - but after a couple of years of recreational riding on top of however much use it had before, it is doing fine. Lots of years of use left in it. The women in my family like it a lot. Fits two of my horses as well as anything else I've found.

Of course, my favorite saddle right now is an Aussie-style I bought new for $750 (on Christmas sale), so my taste in saddles may be suspect.

I do dislike a saddle that 'puts you in the right place' using blocks, etc. Put the lowest part of the seat in the right place, and hang the stirrups in the right place for the sport, use a cantle that makes sense for the sport, and then let the rider ride.


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## nrhareiner

If you can find an older Circle Y they are decent saddles. The new ones are production saddles and are just not the quality of other makes. Yet they are not cheap to by. For their price point there are other better saddles out there.

Kind of like Crate saddles. If you get an older one they are great saddles. The newer ones?? Not so much.


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## Kawonu

Hm... Combing a little through this, I see pros and cons. Personally, my horse is training for both English and Western work, so I'm thinking about maybe learning a little Dressage in the English saddle, then trying some of it in Western. 

To begin with I had been against it because all I could see was leveraged bits being used tight, with a horse that looked like he wasn't enjoying his work. However, it stands that with some work, Western Dressage could be new and interesting. The matter is: How many people are going to treat their horses properly while riding Western Dressage?


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## Casey02

smrobs- its all personal preference haha, I have an older circle y barrel saddle that has absoultly nothing wrong with it. I think you just have to watch what you buy nowadays, saddle wise (im sure you know that)


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## GotaDunQH

smrobs said:


> Okay, this is going just a bit off topic, but why don't you guys like Circle Y's? I've never had one, never even seen one, but since they are such a big name and they look decent in all the pictures I've seen, I would have figured that they were pretty good saddles.


Older Circle Y's were built well....but the seat, for back when they WERE built well..is not current today. Someone else mentioned the big rise in the front...and yep, HATE THAT big rise. It forces you to sit in ONE spot, at the BACK of the saddle. it does not place you balanced and centered over the horse's back. The new ones, from the mid to late 1990's are carp. Mass produced and quality sacrificed, many with only semi bars, way overpriced, and a huge loss in re-sale value. I know, I owned one..and absolutely HATED it. It was a show saddle. It did not fit any horse I put it on, the leather was cheap, quality of silver bad...and I bought one of the higher end ones! I used in ONE show season and got rid of it.....at a big loss. The market is FLOODED with them, and you can never get back anything near what you pay, even after only one year. So when I sold mine, I bought a custom made Kathy's show saddle for the same price as the Circle Y.....the leather was top notch, they made it to my specs, the seat put you where you should be with room to move, the stirrups hung better, it fit 4 different horses I used it on like a charm and I had that saddle for 9 years! I sold it and only lost 1/4 of what I paid for it.

The new Circle Y's, since the late 80's are garbage.


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## jumanji321

The only Circle Y I've ridden in is their treeless trail one. I absolutely hate it, all of the padding pops me out of the saddle. Give me a firm seat and I'm good.


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## boots

Stoddard said:


> Hm... Combing a little through this, I see pros and cons. Personally, my horse is training for both English and Western work, so I'm thinking about maybe learning a little Dressage in the English saddle, then trying some of it in Western.
> 
> To begin with I had been against it because all I could see was leveraged bits being used tight, with a horse that looked like he wasn't enjoying his work. However, it stands that with some work, Western Dressage could be new and interesting. The matter is: How many people are going to treat their horses properly while riding Western Dressage?


Good horsemanship is good horsemanship regardless of the tack. I'm sure you will like the influence dressage has on your riding. 

I don't like the results I see from the western dressage videos. Kind of looks like folks taking shortcuts to getting a finished bridle horse, to me.


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## mildot

Interesting turn, this thread has taken.

One disagreement with anebel: high level dressage is not solely a competitive sport. It also exists as an academic pursuit that stands on its own.


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## RunJumpRide

I think it's pretty neat! 
An English rider saying "western dressage is dumb, they are just copying engligh dressage" is like a western rider saying "English pleasure is dumb, they are copying western pleasure."... Just saying. :wink:


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## nrhareiner

That would be a valid compairison only if the tack was changed. WD is simply canging tack. They are using western bits as though they where english bits and so on
WD is nothing more then a cheep imitation & until some really changes that is all it qill ever be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GotaDunQH

RunJumpRide said:


> I think it's pretty neat!
> An English rider saying "western dressage is dumb, they are just copying engligh dressage" is like a western rider saying "English pleasure is dumb, they are copying western pleasure."... Just saying. :wink:


That's not what are saying at all! English/hunt isn't dumb and neither is Dressage. What the problem is with Western Dressage is that the amount of contact needed is NOT for a shanked western bit. Shanked western bits are not meant to be used this way, with all that contact....not at all.


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## Nickers2002

GotaDunQH said:


> That's not what are saying at all! English/hunt isn't dumb and neither is Dressage. What the problem is with Western Dressage is that the amount of contact needed is NOT for a shanked western bit. Shanked western bits are not meant to be used this way, with all that contact....not at all.


I will say that I am doing a couple of western dressage schooling shows this year for a few reasons:

1. I like how the gaits are more forward and encouraging for the horse to move natually.
2. Getting me and my gelding out there for the expirience.
3. He is still training in a snaffle (10 yrs old) and since he does well in it, but needs a reminder every once in a while - I really don't want to have to pick up contact on a shanked bit in a normal western class yet.
4. He doesn't like riding in company...in the western dressage class he'll be the only one in the ring while I work on getting him used to riding with others at home.

So for those reasons I like having this new outlet.


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## longride

For those concerned about riding two handed on the curb, I think the concept comes from this - 



. Skip over to 3 min 48 sec into the video. This is the contact expected of a Western Dressage horse ridden in the curb.


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## nrhareiner

Not even close. WHat you are seeing in the video at that point is a trainer reminding his mount the proper way to work. You can tell from the video that this is a green cutting horse and he has probably not been in the bridle long. So the trainer is taking him back and reinforcing what he had done in the snaffle. I do this with my finished horses at times too. However it is only for a bit when working the horse at home or before a class and I would NEVER expect to show a horse like that. It is simple reinforcement of what the horse should be doing.


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## longride

nrhareiner said:


> Not even close. WHat you are seeing in the video at that point is a trainer reminding his mount the proper way to work. You can tell from the video that this is a green cutting horse and he has probably not been in the bridle long. So the trainer is taking him back and reinforcing what he had done in the snaffle. I do this with my finished horses at times too. However it is only for a bit when working the horse at home or before a class and I would NEVER expect to show a horse like that. It is simple reinforcement of what the horse should be doing.


And therein lies the difference in concept. Dressage competitions are first of all tests - meaning the horse is not considered to know its job or be capable of a finished performance until Grand Prix, and even then you hear commentators remarking that a horse's pirouettes or changes aren't yet matured. That means horses are tested at certain points on a progressive scale of training. It's perfectly acceptable that a horse at any level may need "reminding" of how to carry itself, especially if it is just achieving the new level. Will it show in the scores - absolutely. If a horse can show one handed without loss of balance and show all the qualities required of the test it WILL beat one shown two handed. Period. OTOH if a horse shown two handed with occasional reminders puts in a better test than a horse shown one handed that can't maintain self carriage and bend it will have higher scores. What should be penalized heavily is a horse shown in a curb who has no self carriage and is ridden on "heavy" contact. For that matter heavy contact in a snaffle is not wanted. Aids are to be given with release. 

One problem is that in the snaffle a horse that accepts the bit and carries it well will not show gaps in the contact. No matter how light it is, the rein will remain steady. Thus its hard to see whether contact is light or heavy unless it becomes very obvious. 

Personally I agree that the curb has no place in basic and primary tests.


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## nrhareiner

longride said:


> Personally I agree that the curb has no place in basic and primary tests.


 
I do not think a curb has any place being used 2 handed past a bit of training at home or the warm up pen. Once the horse is showing in a curb they should be a solid bridle horse and shown one handed. Never 2 handed.


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## longride

To me this misses the point of dressage testing, which is to test DURING the progression. If riding the horse for 10 minutes two handed at home is good training, that training should be able to tested in a 4 minute test. If it can't be tested because it's so horrible, it shouldn't be happening at home. Sounds a lot like my attitude about rollkur, or whatever they want to call it now.


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## msdomo

I know this is an old thread but wanted to make a comment. 

Western dressage isn't based off USEF standards. Western Dressage uses Western Dressage Association of America. There is a difference in the two.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

msdomo said:


> I know this is an old thread but wanted to make a comment.
> 
> Western dressage isn't based off USEF standards. Western Dressage uses Western Dressage Association of America. There is a difference in the two.


WDAA uses a rulebook similar to/based off of the USEF rulebook for dressage, modified to suit WD. Many of the rules are the same. As well the WDAA tests are based off of USEF tests. And WDAA allows use of USEF sanctioned judges without a guest card at WDAA shows.

So how is WD not based off of USEF standards?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner

And that is the big problem with WD. All it is is Dressage in a new out fit. This is where my big problem comes in. If you are going to do someing with Wester tack then you need to judge it based on the use of such tack. A western curb bit should not have that much contact. If all it is is dressage in differnt tack then call it what it is...


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## GotaDunQH

Two good posts by Anebel and Reiner. Msdomo....WD IS based of the USEF standard, however the WD developers started their own association. That's it...the rest is based on Dressage standards, but the WDAA was started because WD is not a recognized discipline under all the Dressage Associations and Federations. 

And like Reiner said....a curb bit on a western horse is NOT MEANT to have that much contact...plain and simple, which is THE biggest beef I have with the WD thing. It's a joke. If you have a well broke western horse, well broke to pack a curb bit on a loose rein and work off of it....then THAT is what WD SHOULD be, with a USEF approved Dressage pattern. The whole tight contact with a curb bit on a western goes totally against what a western horse is.


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## boots

GotaDunQH said:


> . The whole tight contact with a curb bit on a western goes totally against what a western horse is.


I completely agree. 

And goes against classic dressage, which is to get optimal movement with least cues. 

I won't even mention the generally held belief that dressage movements were seen as desireable for mounted battle, requiring the use of one hand on the reins. Ooops.


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## Muppetgirl

nrhareiner said:


> If you want to do Dressage then do dressage and do it as it was intended. If you want to ride wester then pick a discipline that fits western. Do not mix the 2. TO me it looks like people who can not do either have made a new event that they can do. If it ever gains popularity and gets more people and other trainers doing it they will need to find something new b/c they will not be top dog any more.
> 
> Do not even get me started on the death grip they have on the horses face.


Glad you mentioned the death grip....I watched a minute of that horse in the video all 'up' and watched the shanks on that bit sitting horizontally.....yuck. The shanks should never remain in that horizontal position....they're designed to hang.....wrong bit, wrong discipline, .....so many thing s wrong....


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## nrhareiner

I think that WD could be an interesting thing to do. However the way it is set up now not so much. Also it really started with the Morgen bred.


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## Muppetgirl

nrhareiner said:


> I think that WD could be an interesting thing to do. However the way it is set up now not so much. Also it really started with the Morgen bred.


I'd be leery of doing it the way it's shown in the vid.....take me out back and shoot me if I ever use a bit like that in that fashion. 

I'm sure I'd get my hands cut off by a few friends if I did that with a big honking shank like that! It's too bad we cannot see what's INSIDE the horses mouth.

Ok, end of rant.


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## Inga

bsms said:


> This doesn't do much for me either:
> 
> The 1st Western Dressage Saddle - YouTube


At first I was thinking "what the big deal if someone wants to do dressage under western tack" but then... they are not only trying to create a new class (which is fine to me) but they are trying to sell a whole new concept in tack. MONEY MONEY MONEY. So really, it isn't "Hey Wester riders let's try something new and expand our thoughts on riding" It is "hey western riders, come spend some more money on new tack to do something that is being done already under english tack." 

I guess I don't get that. If you have a western horse and chose to do dressage and need a new saddle to do it, why don't you just buy a dressage saddle and do it the way it is already being done? That confuses me. 

I have no issue with people wanting to branch out and try something new. To me, as long as they are having fun with their horse and not hurting it, that is great. If they want to spend a huge amount of money on new tack that is much like their old tack, whatever. It just seems a little... silly to me.


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## thegump

Forgive me for posting to this old thread too, but just want to say that the vaqueros influenced much of our early western riding, on the west coast especially, so I can see western dressage looking back to that traditon. Vaquero horses were mostly iberian type breeds which carried themselves with the classical, higher head set. How that was anglisized into peanut rollers and such, I'll never know, but look around on YouTube and you can find modern exhibitions of the vaquero tradition whether its a "dancing horse" or a working cow horse. Buck Brannaman and Martin Black are two western horsemen that come to mind who develop horses in this tradition. Lastly, a respectable vaquero would take a long time to develop a finished horse beginning with the hackamore. If I remember correctly, it takes about 10 years to get to the finished horse and the process is considered an art.


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## boots

You can perhaps see western "dressage" *trying* to look back to that tradition, but they are way, way off base. 

You're right about the vaquero influence and the specific style of training that is associated with them.

Maybe you've already found them, but Richard Caldwell and Bruce Sandifer have some videos on youtube that you might like. Also if you search for Californios, you can find some interesting stuff on this style.

Then we have to remember all the working cowboys and cowgirls out there every day, working with their horses and working to improve communication with their equine partners. They just don't have internet.

Western Dressage? No way even close.


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## Beling

There have been a couple of WD shows here lately.

The emphasis was on "active and relaxed" and accurate circles. Transitions were jusdged as "smooth" or "fluid" or "too abrupt." Any tension, such as a swishing tail, was noted.

What WASN'T an issue was the tack, (contact or loose rein) or the breed/quality of the horses. It was perhaps dull to watch but a challenge for the contestants.


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## GotaDunQH

Beling said:


> There have been a couple of WD shows here lately.
> 
> *The emphasis was on "active and relaxed" and accurate circles. Transitions were jusdged as "smooth" or "fluid" or "too abrupt." Any tension, such as a swishing tail, was noted.*
> 
> What WASN'T an issue was the tack, (contact or loose rein) or the breed/quality of the horses. It was perhaps dull to watch but a challenge for the contestants.


They judge the VERY same thing in a Western Horsemanship pattern, that's why I doon't see the need for WD....we already have it. It's the western equivalent of a dressage test, but shorter.


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## BornToRun

I find it pretty beneficial for my horses training


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## GotaDunQH

BornToRun said:


> I find it pretty beneficial for my horses training


Training with dressage techniques and the basic philosophy is one thing, ALL horses benefit from it. Making it a discipline under the Western heading...with STRICT dressage guidelines according to Dressage Association rules in a whole other topic. It's a misnomer.


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## BornToRun

GotaDunQH said:


> Training with dressage techniques and the basic philosophy is one thing, ALL horses benefit from it. Making it a discipline under the Western heading...with STRICT dressage guidelines according to Dressage Association rules in a whole other topic. It's a misnomer.


That's all well and good and I understand where everyone is coming from, but I was simply stating the fact that I like the training concept of it and that it's working for my horses.


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## bsms

BornToRun said:


> That's all well and good and I understand where everyone is coming from, but I was simply stating the fact that I like the training concept of it and that it's working for my horses.


And I think most of us believe anything that gets folks out & having fun with their horses, and where the horses can have fun, is OK. I'm not trying to shoot down WD. Those who want to do it are welcome to. I just wish they would find another name...


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## thegump

Thanks I will look up the term and the people you mentioned. Can't remember if I've seen them. And I agree with the *trying* and not really understanding the whole philosophy of true unity with the horse and what that looks and feels like, as opposed to _*making *_the horse perform fancy manuevers by whatever means neccessary. Ha, ha, I don't even know what I'm trying to say now :?. 



boots said:


> You can perhaps see western "dressage" *trying* to look back to that tradition, but they are way, way off base.
> 
> You're right about the vaquero influence and the specific style of training that is associated with them.
> 
> Maybe you've already found them, but Richard Caldwell and Bruce Sandifer have some videos on youtube that you might like. Also if you search for Californios, you can find some interesting stuff on this style.
> 
> Then we have to remember all the working cowboys and cowgirls out there every day, working with their horses and working to improve communication with their equine partners. They just don't have internet.
> 
> Western Dressage? No way even close.


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## Muppetgirl

bsms said:


> And I think most of us believe anything that gets folks out & having fun with their horses, and where the horses can have fun, is OK. I'm not trying to shoot down WD. Those who want to do it are welcome to. I just wish they would find another name...


I just wish they'd get rid of the big shanks and all the contact.....it's bothersome to watch, because sensible folk know that those shanked bits are not in anyway made for constant contact like that......it actually pi$$e$ me off......


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