# New addition to the family <3



## brookemd (Jan 8, 2014)

The father is Pali and white paint and the mother is fleabitten grey.
Thoughts on what he/she may come out to be? 

Name suggestions welcome. 

I have included pics but unsure if theyre working, if not will try again


----------



## Sugar (Jan 30, 2015)

*Adorable!* Reminds me of two special painted babies of our own. ::sniff::


----------



## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

He's cute! I'm confused at what you meant by "what he'll come out as".....looks like a b/w Paint to me. Is the mare pregnant?

Name:

Patriot
Hawk
Dante

Esme
Rayne


----------



## brookemd (Jan 8, 2014)

Roman said:


> He's cute! I'm confused at what you meant by "what he'll come out as".....looks like a b/w Paint to me. Is the mare pregnant?
> 
> Name:
> 
> ...






Sorry, if he will change colour as he gets a bit older as there is no black in his parents 
The mare is not pregnant she just had this foal last night


----------



## Sugar (Jan 30, 2015)

I have no interest in blood tests, so I have nada on the data end. But the stallion that got after my mare (twice, no less), was a brown & white paint, with a black tail. One filly was born black and white, one brown and white, both turned into stunning blue roan paints. The eldest ended up with a partial blue eye, as well. I have no idea what his actual lineage was, as he wasn't ours. But our little fillies were drop-dead gorgeous.


----------



## brookemd (Jan 8, 2014)

http://distilleryimage7.s3.amazonaws.com/9942c43a711511e3974d0efa99b78f33_6.jpg

Don't know if this pic works but it's the father


----------



## brookemd (Jan 8, 2014)

Sugar said:


> I have no interest in blood tests, so I have nada on the data end. But the stallion that got after my mare (twice, no less), was a brown & white paint, with a black tail. One filly was born black and white, one brown and white, both turned into stunning blue roan paints. The eldest ended up with a partial blue eye, as well. I have no idea what his actual lineage was, as he wasn't ours. But our little fillies were drop-dead gorgeous.


aw i would love blue roan paints! pics?


----------



## Sugar (Jan 30, 2015)

Ok, I'm going to call grullo. I feel like his butt says it all, and I have trouble imagining that black head as being blonde, one day. So I'm going to call flea bitten grullo paint. (I have a soft spot for freckles...)


----------



## brookemd (Jan 8, 2014)

Sugar said:


> Ok, I'm going to call grullo. I feel like his butt says it all, and I have trouble imagining that black head as being blonde, one day. So I'm going to call flea bitten grullo paint. (I have a soft spot for freckles...)


I'd be happy with that outcome for sure!


----------



## Sugar (Jan 30, 2015)

Somewhere between this and this, with a dollop of that.


----------



## brookemd (Jan 8, 2014)

*close up*

an extra pic just because he's gorgeous and i'm extremely excited.

I wonder where the black comes from!


----------



## brookemd (Jan 8, 2014)

Sugar said:


> Somewhere between this and this, with a dollop of that.


awesome!


----------



## Sugar (Jan 30, 2015)

Oooh, this is closer to my idea...


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

What color was the mare before she greyed out (what color was she born)? What color were her parents?

Black is definitely a possibility if the mare was black-based (black, bay, brown) before she went grey.

Think of grey as a blanket. It can cover any color and all it takes is one copy of the gene for it to express.

Now, regarding Sugar's guess of "flea bitten grullo paint"...it's genetically not possible unless the mare or stallion were dun. Also, flea bitten refers to greys only, not to any other color.

Here's the thing, though. Foals who will grey out later in life are often born a very adult color, rather than the somewhat diluted, mousy color that foals are normal born. This foal, being that he is only one day old, is way darker/solid black than a foal would normally be. 

So, my guess is that he is going to grey out eventually and you'll have a grey and white pinto. He'll turn completely white and then the only way you'll be able to tell that he is pinto is by wetting him down because the skin under his white parts will be pink and the skin under his colored parts will be black.


----------



## Sugar (Jan 30, 2015)

brookemd said:


> aw i would love blue roan paints! pics?


Our pics are on a different machine, but these links are very similar. 

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/4d/02/1d/4d021d18393bf149333d95d0a075a707.jpg

http://harrispainthorses.com/Stallions/p7lsm_img_4/fullsize/Forest004_fs.jpg

*They were stunning.* 
Both were stolen.  The youngest was a month off of her first birthday.


----------



## brookemd (Jan 8, 2014)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> What color was the mare before she greyed out (what color was she born)? What color were her parents?
> 
> Black is definitely a possibility if the mare was black-based (black, bay, brown) before she went grey.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately i have no idea and no contact to previous owners. 
Would be wonderful if colour stayed in him. How long roughly til the greying out would occur?


----------



## Sugar (Jan 30, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Now, regarding Sugar's guess of "flea bitten grullo paint"...it's genetically not possible unless the mare or stallion were dun. Also, flea bitten refers to greys only, not to any other color.


I don't mean it in a pure sense. I just mean I can imagine him "grullo" colored and white, with freckles. :smile:


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

brookemd said:


> Unfortunately i have no idea and no contact to previous owners.
> Would be wonderful if colour stayed in him. How long roughly til the greying out would occur?


That depends entirely on the horse. I've seen horses start greying out as yearlings and I've seen horses that didn't start greying out until they were four-year-olds. Unfortunately, grey is one of those genes that is not terribly predictable in the way it will progress. You can have two full-siblings born the same color that grey out at different rates and in different ways. 

You could have him tested. It's relatively inexpensive. $25, I think, through UC Davis to see if he carries grey: https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/horse.php . You'd want the third test down (the coat color test). 

Same thing from Animal Genetics (another trusted lab): Animal Genetics


----------



## brookemd (Jan 8, 2014)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> That depends entirely on the horse. I've seen horses start greying out as yearlings and I've seen horses that didn't start greying out until they were four-year-olds. Unfortunately, grey is one of those genes that is not terribly predictable in the way it will progress. You can have two full-siblings born the same color that grey out at different rates and in different ways.
> 
> You could have him tested. It's relatively inexpensive. $25, I think, through UC Davis to see if he carries grey: https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/horse.php . You'd want the third test down (the coat color test).
> 
> Same thing from Animal Genetics (another trusted lab): Animal Genetics



Thanks heaps for this!


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I'm with Drafty here. Black for sure, more than likely going to grey. No dun (so not Grulla), with a possibility of cream from the sire.


----------



## brookemd (Jan 8, 2014)

NdAppy said:


> I'm with Drafty here. Black for sure, more than likely going to grey. No dun (so not Grulla), with a possibility of cream from the sire.


So you think will just look like a completely white horse?


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

brookemd said:


> So you think will just look like a completely white horse?


Eventually it's quite possible. 

I should have been more specific when I said that. Not all grey horses will go completely white before they die. Some stay flea-bitten for quite a long time, while others go white in a very short time frame. Still others go dapple grey and stay that way for a long period, then rapidly get whiter and whiter. 

My best friend's TB gelding was that way. He was dapple grey most of his life. He's now 16 (or 17...I can't remember) and in the last year and a half has lost the majority of his dapples and become mostly white with a scattered flea bites.


----------



## brookemd (Jan 8, 2014)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Eventually it's quite possible.
> 
> I should have been more specific when I said that. Not all grey horses will go completely white before they die. Some stay flea-bitten for quite a long time, while others go white in a very short time frame. Still others go dapple grey and stay that way for a long period, then rapidly get whiter and whiter.
> 
> My best friend's TB gelding was that way. He was dapple grey most of his life. He's now 16 (or 17...I can't remember) and in the last year and a half has lost the majority of his dapples and become mostly white with a scattered flea bites.


Okay thanks


----------



## Sugar (Jan 30, 2015)

That's really neat. I knew none of that about grays. I'm still rooting for him to keep his paint on, though. 

Brookemd, are you planning to keep him?


----------



## brookemd (Jan 8, 2014)

I'm still hoping he keeps it as well! Everyone who knows about horses who's actually seen him in person says he'll keep it. So who knows! Yep definitely. He's our first baby. He'll be mine as long as he reaches 15.3 hh otherwise he'll be my nieces but my hopes are up! By the looks of him he should reach about 16h potentially taller. I've always wanted to have s horse that I've raised. I can imagine the bond being much stronger


----------



## Sugar (Jan 30, 2015)

brookemd said:


> I'm still hoping he keeps it as well! Everyone who knows about horses who's actually seen him in person says he'll keep it. So who knows! Yep definitely. He's our first baby. He'll be mine as long as he reaches 15.3 hh otherwise he'll be my nieces but my hopes are up! By the looks of him he should reach about 16h potentially taller. I've always wanted to have s horse that I've raised. I can imagine the bond being much stronger


I wish that he may have a most blessed and long life with you.


----------



## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Brookemd, keep in mind that if the baby grays, his skin under the black areas will retain gray skin whereas the white areas will keep pink skin, so his pattern will remain and be particularly visible when he gets wet.


----------



## brookemd (Jan 8, 2014)

Sugar said:


> I wish that he may have a most blessed and long life with you.


That's really sweet thank you  x


----------



## brookemd (Jan 8, 2014)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Eventually it's quite possible.
> 
> I should have been more specific when I said that. Not all grey horses will go completely white before they die. Some stay flea-bitten for quite a long time, while others go white in a very short time frame. Still others go dapple grey and stay that way for a long period, then rapidly get whiter and whiter.
> 
> My best friend's TB gelding was that way. He was dapple grey most of his life. He's now 16 (or 17...I can't remember) and in the last year and a half has lost the majority of his dapples and become mostly white with a scattered flea bites.



I just wanted to show you this picture so you can see the lighter colours in him as well and the little patch on his butt being so much lighter. Does this change your opinion at all? His dad is pali and white paint and mostly produces pali paints or buckskin paints so we were shocked (but of course still happy) 

hopefully this attachment works


----------



## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Congrats!  Baby will most definitely grey out.


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

brookemd said:


> I just wanted to show you this picture so you can see the lighter colours in him as well and the little patch on his butt being so much lighter. Does this change your opinion at all? His dad is pali and white paint and mostly produces pali paints or buckskin paints so we were shocked (but of course still happy)
> 
> hopefully this attachment works


That's a pretty typical smearing that tobiano does at times. The foal *could* possibly carry cream, but either way IMPO he's grey. 

Grey is a giant blanket that covers everything. No matter what the base color is, grey trumps it and covers it.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

If the mare is grey, then the baby has a 50/50 chance of having the greying gene, and if so, will unfortunately turn white eventually. 
Often, it is easy to tell, even as a foal, for there usually will be some greying around the eyes
What color was the mother, before she greyed? Looks like chestnut, by her mane.
Colt has not inherited the dilution gene for palomino from the sire, so at the moment, appears like a dark chestnut marked Paint, and hopefully did not inherit the greying gene for the dam
Well, the lighter patches, does have me wondering as to whether he inherited the greying gene. Can you post close up pics of hair around the eyes?


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, grey is not a base color, but rather a dominant color modifier, that causes colored hair to be re-placed with non pigmented hair
The rate of expression, as noted varies, with some horses turning white slowly over the years, and others very rapidly.
The greying gene is esp un desirable in colored breeds, as it destroys all contrasting markings
A grey horse can be born any color. Those rose grey horses usually started out as chestnuts and those steel greys as blacks
Mane and tail hair sometimes take longer to loose all color
My Appaloosa mare, bred by transported semen, and not knowing at the time, that the sire carried the greying gene, was born very loud colored. She was chestnut, with a large blanket, blaze and high stockings. Within a year she was white
If that foal's dark markings are true black and not very dark brown, then the mother had to have been black or bay


----------



## brookemd (Jan 8, 2014)

Smilie said:


> If the mare is grey, then the baby has a 50/50 chance of having the greying gene, and if so, will unfortunately turn white eventually.
> Often, it is easy to tell, even as a foal, for there usually will be some greying around the eyes
> What color was the mother, before she greyed? Looks like chestnut, by her mane.
> Colt has not inherited the dilution gene for palomino from the sire, so at the moment, appears like a dark chestnut marked Paint, and hopefully did not inherit the greying gene for the dam
> Well, the lighter patches, does have me wondering as to whether he inherited the greying gene. Can you post close up pics of hair around the eyes?


really appreciate your reply thanks for that. this is the best ive got at the moment of around his eyes. appears to just be black and maybe slightly has the golden hairs that are in the black all over his body and face. unfortunately i dont know the original colour of the mare and have no way of finding out.


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Smilie said:


> If the mare is grey, then the baby has a 50/50 chance of having the greying gene, and if so, will unfortunately turn white eventually.
> Often, it is easy to tell, even as a foal, for there usually will be some greying around the eyes
> What color was the mother, before she greyed? Looks like chestnut, by her mane.
> Colt has not inherited the dilution gene for palomino from the sire, so at the moment, appears like a dark chestnut marked Paint, and hopefully did not inherit the greying gene for the dam
> Well, the lighter patches, does have me wondering as to whether he inherited the greying gene. Can you post close up pics of hair around the eyes?


The colt is black based not red. The colt could possibly have cream from the sire as cream does not show on black. The dam could be any color under the grey and the only way to know would be to pull hairs and test her. OP if you're really wanting to know what the foal is pull some mane/tail hairs and send them in for testing. That will give you definitive answers. 

The eyes are not always indicators or grey. Being born an adult shade is pretty indicative of having the grey gene. 

The smudged patches are typical for tobiano patterning and many tobianos have them. It has nothing to do with the grey gene. 

As for your appy that greyed quickly - that has to do with the interaction of LP and grey. When a horse carries both they tend to grey EXTREMELY fast, within the first year. This has been shown many times to happen with many appaloosa breeders that get grey into their breeding program.


----------

