# Purchasing from a convicted criminal - would you?



## VT Trail Trotters (Jul 21, 2011)

I guess so i would, its not like hes building it with his hands or that its designed to cause crimes.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Frankly I don't see how moral comes into the play.


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## Shasta1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

KV- The argument is that you wouldn't buy from them because you don't want to contribute money/wealth to someone who feels they are above the law


Specifically, there is a book out whose author is currently serving quite a bit of time for sexually harassing his students. There are people who refuse to buy the book because of who the author is.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

For me, it would have to be decided if the product is tied to the crime in any way. I am a believer in second, third forth chances....

However, I would NEVER buy or read OJ Simpons book where he, for the most part, confessed to killing Nicole. Making money on THAT? REALLY?

THAT would be the kind of line I would draw.


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## Tianimalz (Jan 6, 2009)

Just because he did time doesn't mean he thinks he's above the law, could have been a crime of passion, a crime of desperation, ect. Sides, it shouldn't really matter to me, maybe he's rehabilitated and is now trying to make an honest living.

Business is business.


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

.

I wont' name names, but there is a very popular Saddle brand that is now being made by prisoners in the Colorado Prison system ......lol....

I heard licenses plates are made by prisoners in many states

They need to work and learn a trade too :lol:



.


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## Shasta1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

Tianimalz said:


> Just because he did time doesn't mean he thinks he's above the law, could have been a crime of passion, a crime of desperation, ect. Sides, it shouldn't really matter to me, maybe he's rehabilitated and is now trying to make an honest living.
> 
> Business is business.


Tian, no in this case it was not a crime of passion or desperation. This was a person who repeatedly sexually harassed students over a number of years, thus abusing the authoritative power he possessed. 


I bought said book because I believe that this person is now serving their time and paying for his wrongdoings. I've been asked how on earth could I buy this book and make this person more wealthy so I opened the thread to see what HF thought.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

OK, so your example was the fact. What is the book about? If it is a "how to harass" book, I would say NO. If it was a book on totally unrelated questions, i see no reason not to buy/read it. His life has just been made much more difficult for having been convicted of a crime. He will have a lot of trouble making a living now. Hopefully, he has seen the evil of his ways. If not, well......

I see no reason, if the book is separate from his crimes, not to give him a chance at redemption.

I am not strongly religious, but it would seem the Christian thing to do, if you are.


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## Tianimalz (Jan 6, 2009)

Agreed, *if he is trying to profit from his crimes; then no.* That is different. But if he were just trying to make a honest living then I'd see no reason to discriminate.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Shasta1981 said:


> KV- The argument is that you wouldn't buy from them because you don't want to contribute money/wealth to someone who feels they are above the law
> 
> 
> Specifically, there is a book out whose author is currently serving quite a bit of time for sexually harassing his students. There are people who refuse to buy the book because of who the author is.


Oh, I see... I didn't think about this kind of "buy", but rather about the situation when someone say in jail and his wife is selling some of his stuff.  

No, I would NOT buy something like OJ Simpons book. In fact I find it quite ridiculous it was even allowed to go on-sale. As for the book completely unrelated to the crime (say, "Math in questions" from the teacher who's in prison for sexual relations with students) then I wouldn't really care much as long as I like the book.


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## Shasta1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

Its a book on horses - totally unrelated to his crimes! That's what I thought too, Allison. He wrote a very good book and I don't think I should deprive myself of reading it because of his faults that he is already paying for no less.


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## Shasta1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> Oh, I see... I didn't think about this kind of "buy", but rather about the situation when someone say in jail and his wife is selling some of his stuff.
> 
> No, I would NOT buy something like OJ Simpons book. In fact I find it quite ridiculous it was even allowed to go on-sale. As for the book completely unrelated to the crime (say, "Math in questions" from the teacher who's in prison for sexual relations with students) then I wouldn't really care much as long as I like the book.


I know I'm being cryptic in an effort not to slander! That's a perfect example. Glad you agree!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't think said person, if still in prison, can legally profit from his book sales. But , that doesn't mean he can not profit from it after getting out.

For example, locally here there is a young man, the so-called "Barefoot Bandit", who stole and wrecked some private airplanes as part of his illegal shenanigans. Cost the owners many thousands of dollars. He is writing (ghost wirting) his story. He is legally unable to profit, but the money can be used to pay restitution to his vicitms.
one day he'll get out and then , I suppose he will profit. 


In the case of prison workers of all stripes assembling saddles or whatever, yes, I would buy the product. They get paid something like 75 cents an hour. it's nothing, but the skill is necessary. They need something to help them restart their lives once out.


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I don't think said person, if still in prison, can legally profit from his book sales. But , that doesn't mean he can not profit from it after getting out.
> 
> For example, locally here there is a young man, the so-called "Barefoot Bandit", who stole and wrecked some private airplanes as part of his illegal shenanigans. Cost the owners many thousands of dollars. He is writing (ghost wirting) his story. He is legally unable to profit, but the money can be used to pay restitution to his vicitms.
> one day he'll get out and then , I suppose he will profit.
> ...


I mostly agree with Tiny, who's said it best. 

The saddles which use prison labor - yes, I'd buy. (But they're too expensive for me, LOL.) 

The book about a guy's crimes - no, never would I buy. 

The book written about another topic by a felon - if I knew the author was a felon and if he was NOT remorseful and trying to make amends for his crimes, then NO I would not buy it. I think that prison sentences mean that the person has suffered the consequences of the crime, imposed by society (law). It does not mean that they have made amends to their victims. In God's eyes, they still have some work to do even if they've paid their debt to society, so to speak. And, as a Christian, I am supposed to forgive him for what he did to me but it doesn't mean that I have to forget about it and certainly doesn't mean that I have to treat him like any upstanding person in society. There are consequences for his past actions - a child abuser doesn't get to babysit; a thief doesn't have access to my belongings; an embezzler can't be a clerk in accounts payable; and a convict can't vote or own a gun. Edited to add - Even while I don't have to trust him, I am supposed to love him in the Christian sense of the word, as he is loved by God, which is hard, too.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

That's why God is God, and we are imperfect


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Absolutely not. I do not buy products or services for anyone that I do not wish to benefit from my business, among which would be criminals. I also would never buy a product that would benefit Jane Fonda or Ben & Jerry's, or a white supremist group, or any entity with which I have serious moral, ethical, or political differences...


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I do not think that I would.
For instance, after the Passion of Christ came out and Mel gibsons trouble with the cop, I threw away every Mel Gibson movie I owned and refuse to go see another or even watch one on cable.
I also make sure that all my investments are with companies that I agree with ,as Faceman has also posted.
Giving money to someone is condoning their actions.
I do beleive in forgiveness and redemption. I would want to see proof that he has changed or is willing to do so.
Sexual harrassment is harmful to people it can cuase emotional damage to the victim. It is a serious charge.
As the fatehr of 2 daughters i find it hard to stomach someone that has done this to anyone. Shalom


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## mikes (Apr 30, 2012)

I agree with most folks here. I would not buy this book if it had anything to do with the crime. Maybe it has something to do with how to teach people what to look out for for those crimes. Besides if hes in jail for that he wont get far.


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## TimberRidgeRanch (Mar 6, 2012)

I would buy a prouct if it had nothing to do with the crime they commited. They nee to learn there are better ways to make a living then to break the law. I bought a fish net that was made by a inmate beats any net in the stores. How can criminals change if we dont allow them a chance. I can understand some crimes. And trust me they are not making a killing on what they are selling the money goes right to fines etc etc. And what if the prisoner is doing it to make money to help support his kid. JMO
TRR


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

It depends on several things. First, if the book had anything to do w the crime, absolutely not, no I wouldn't buy it. Second, what crime they were convicted of. If someone w no prior conviction were convicted of protesting near an area designated as a "no free speech zone" by the secret service - I am not sure I would feel they belonged in prison to begin with, so buying thier "product" would not bother me . And, third, where the proceeds go to. If all of the proceeds go back to the taxpayer in some manner (e.g., all goes to prison budget), then - maybe. The thing about prisonors is they are suppose to "pay a debt", which is feasable if they are making license plates or what not. But, as it stands - most imprisonment costs_ society_ enormous amounts of money per inmate.

This particular inmates "product" - no, I would not buy it - for the same reasons described by faceman, above.


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## mind (Dec 14, 2011)

Faceman said:


> Absolutely not. I do not buy products or services for anyone that I do not wish to benefit from my business, among which would be criminals. I also would never buy a product that would benefit Jane Fonda or Ben & Jerry's, or a white supremist group, or any entity with which I have serious moral, ethical, or political differences...


Fundamentally, I agree with this entire statement. The only clause I would need to insert is that it is dependent on the individuals crimes, as there are felons whose crimes I don't personally find offensive.


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## calicokatt (Mar 5, 2012)

I have to say that there really is no black and white answer on this one. 

I'm pretty sure that some of us here have been convicted of crimes. Perhaps not sexual harassment, but you never know. Would you buy a book from a convicted shoplifter who was young and dumb when they did it, but older and wiser now? Or how about an habitual speed limit breaker? Which laws are ok to break and which aren't? 

I think that it would be more likely that most of those here who have said that they would not buy a product from a convicted criminal really mean that they would not buy from a criminal convicted of a crime against a person, but maybe I'm wrong.

And how SHOULD a convicted criminal earn a living if no one will pay him for his (honest) work?


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Faceman said:


> Absolutely not. I do not buy products or services for anyone that I do not wish to benefit from my business, among which would be criminals. I also would never buy a product that would benefit Jane Fonda or Ben & Jerry's, or a white supremist group, or any entity with which I have serious moral, ethical, or political differences...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

What did Jane Fonda do? I recall her talking about Vietnam protests saying how back then she was against the war but she certainly wasn't against those serving, did I miss something? Back in the 80's, her pregnancy work out tapes were the only decent programs around, guess I should have passed? Nope! I owe her big time!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

waresbear said:


> What did Jane Fonda do? I recall her talking about Vietnam protests saying how back then she was against the war but she certainly wasn't against those serving, did I miss something? Back in the 80's, her pregnancy work out tapes were the only decent programs around, guess I should have passed? Nope! I owe her big time!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Jane Fonda A.K.A. Hanoi Jane


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Waresbear, a lot of people believe Jane Fonda betrayed this country.
Her actions during her visit to North Veitnam are very questionable and did place prisoners in jeapordy.
Especially those who served during the war. My father and mother were adamant about this and never saw any of her movies or bought any thing she promoted.
One of the Redgrave sisters also visited the PLO , publicly supporting their use of bombs, and has condemned Israel on numerous occassions.
I believe these are 2 of the examples that Faceman calls far right wacko liberals.
Jane Fonda has a right to free speech but her visit was used by the North as propoganda.
Faceman if I am wrong on the assumptioins correct me. Jane Fonda may be in a different category. Shalom


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Yes in this situation I would buy the book.

I would not buy the book if it were about his crime or makeing a profit off that but if he has written a book about horses and just happens to be in jail then I see no problems with it.

I once saw a statistic that said 90% of reoffenders do so because they have no other way of surviving. No one will employ someone who has been in jail, state benefits (at least in the UK) are crap and not enough to live on so they have to turn to crime to survive.


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## Shasta1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

Faceman said:


> Absolutely not. I do not buy products or services for anyone that I do not wish to benefit from my business, among which would be criminals. I also would never buy a product that would benefit Jane Fonda or Ben & Jerry's, or a white supremist group, or any entity with which I have serious moral, ethical, or political differences...


I agree with you about Jane Fonda. I wouldn't buy anything from her either. I think, for me, it solely lies with the fact that this person in question is serving time for his crimes. He is PAYING for what he did. If he fled the country and did not go to jail (a la Roman Polanski) I would not have bought the book as I do not support Polanski or his movies. 

I think the comment about needing them to truly be remorseful is a good one but how could you ever really know that they are genuinely sorry and trying to reform?


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Does it help that she said she was young & didn't intend to put soldiers in jeopardy? Does it count that she now donates small fortunes to help veterans? Or once you do things like that when you were young, are you damned forever?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Jane Fonda was young, dumb and passionate. Not always a good combination. She was vocal and she put herself into the position of being courted and royally used by a saavy leadership of North Vietnam. She did really stupid things while under their control. Yes, I say control. She was given superstar status and treated like royalty, all in an effort to guide her for propaganda reasons.

At the time, I would never condone or support what she did. I still have a sour feeling for who and what she was AT THE TIME. She has grown up. She has shown true remorse for her involvement. I have not forgiven who she was then, I have forgiven for who she is now.

If she were to write a book about how manipulated she was and how she regrets what she did, I might read it. People learn and change. I simply don't have the time or energy to hold a grudge after people "see the light".


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Many prisoners make things to sell. They are allowed to keep very little but it helps keep them busy. In Canada a prisoner cannot profit from interviews, book sales, etc. yet is allowed to earn a modicum from things he makes.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

waresbear said:


> Does it help that she said she was young & didn't intend to put soldiers in jeopardy? Does it count that she now donates small fortunes to help veterans? Or once you do things like that when you were young, are you damned forever?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Depends upon how you define young...she was 34 when fullfilling her role as Hanoi Jane - hardly a teenybopper. Jane Fonda is 10 years older than I am, and I and my peers were there fighting and dieing while she was consorting with the enemy and feeding its propaganda machine (although I was there a couple years before she was). If I was old enough to be asked to give my life, 10 years older would certainly be old enough to be held responsible for one's actions.

She should have been shot for treason, and in a different and better time would have been...at the time I would have dropped her in her tracks without blinking an eye as just another enemy and would have considered it my patriotic duty.

Many of us considered the war to be unjustified, but there are better ways to express one's opinions than disrespecting and endangering those that, despite disagreeing with the war, had the backbone and character to fight, die, suffer, and sacrifice in service of their country. Vietnam was not a push button war or a police action - over 50,000 Americans died there.





db, that would be far LEFT wacko liberals, not far right...:rofl:


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Faceman at least I got the Wacko part right.
As a therapist I believe that people change and regret things that they have done.
I do not believe that Jane Fonda is today the same person she was then. She regrets her actions.
However someone still serving time for a crime committed may try a coerce others into believing they are reformed.
I do understand Facemans position not much about the Veitnam War makes sense and we as a country are still struggling with it to this day.
Emotions on both sides of the issue ran high and are not easily forgotten.
Shalom


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## starfia (Nov 13, 2010)

For me it would depend on the product - like others have said if it's related to the crime.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

DH (Atty) says it isn't slander or criminal to tell us the NAME of the book. So...spill.
IMO, he/she should be able to serve time and learn a profitable legal trade so that we aren't paying for their keep *forever.*
It's up to the customer whether their crimes "color" the product too much to consider paying the author $ for a book.
I don't think horse-training family clinics are in THIS author's future, though.


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## Bearkiller (Aug 10, 2011)

Is there not a difference between "forgiveness" and actively supporting someone ei: buying their products? I can forgive someone personally but not want to pad their pockets. I do question someone being in JAIL for sexual harassment. Maybe sexual assault but I doubt harassment............


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

For me, it depends on what the product was, who the inmate was, and what he had been convicted of.

I spent over 5 years working as an officer in a state prison. Many of the inmates that were housed at the unit where I worked were just regular people who made a big mistake and ended up in prison for it.

We had an inmate craft shop there where the inmates would make everything from leather goods (belts, wallets, saddles if you provided the tree, etc) to wood furniture and decorations to metalworks like belt buckles, clocks, and various other stuff. Some of the work was very mediocre...and some of it was spectacular. I purchased hand painted decorative music box eggs one year for everyone in my family. The eggs were painted with our own family pictures so they were personalized. The inmate who made them was a first time offender and had been imprisoned for robbing a couple of quick-stops to get money for drugs. Nobody was hurt, he was just desperate. I'm glad that he was serving time for what he did, but I didn't feel like his past mistake was a reason to condemn him for life.

If he had been in prison for raping or killing someone or molesting a child, then no, I likely wouldn't have bought from him.


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## Bearkiller (Aug 10, 2011)

People would be surprised at the # of people they know that have "criminal" records they didn't know about. I wouldn't be opposed to buying something from or hiring someone who had done the time and reformed. However, I feel no obligation to do so, at all. It's a judgement call. Truthfully, though, forgiveness is only relevant if they did something against you. As far as Jane Fonda, I would not buy anything that she was promoting or watch any of her movies.


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## Shasta1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

Bearkiller said:


> I do question someone being in JAIL for sexual harassment. Maybe sexual assault but I doubt harassment............


Oh brother. He was charged with both. The point was that he committed a serious crime, submitted a guilty plea and served time. 

Waresbare - I do believe in people changing but whats different here is that I don't believe she really regrets it. Goes back to "how do you really know if they are sorry?" There is no way to measure this. Time served in jail is measurable, and when complete, they have paid their debt to society.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I would take Jane Fonda at her word & actions that she means she regrets her actions like how she was taken by her words & actions 4 decades ago. By the way Allison, she has a new biography out on her life, seen her a few months ago on tv talking about it. She said she regretted her actions during Vietnam & has tried to make retribution. By the way, for a woman in her 70's or any age for that matter, she is smokin' hot!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

waresbear said:


> I would take Jane Fonda at her word & actions that she means she regrets her actions like how she was taken by her words & actions 4 decades ago. By the way Allison, she has a new biography out on her life, seen her a few months ago on tv talking about it. She said she regretted her actions during Vietnam & has tried to make retribution. By the way, for a woman in her 70's or any age for that matter, she is smokin' hot!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't disagree with the theory, but where do you draw the line? Directly or indirectly she likely caused a lot of casualties and deaths - both in the war theatre and afterwards in the mistreatment of returning soldiers that ruined many lives and drove many to drugs and suicide. To you that is part of history - something you hear or read about. To me it was real - I lived it.

Do you just forgive a person that kills another person? How about a serial killer that kills 10 people...or 20 people? How about a child molestor that has molested dozens of little girls, or a rapist with multiple rapes? Do we just forgive and forget every person that says they are sorry?

Jane Fonda's crime was not one of a naive impetuous teenager. Her actions were premeditated and made as an adult, and caused great harm to her country and to those that serve it. She should have been tried, convicted, and executed for the heinous crimes she committed - but wasn't because it wasn't "politically correct" because of her father and because of the anti-war sentiment of the country.

I am not an unforgiving person - people make mistakes and should be forgiven of their mistakes. But some crimes are not mistakes - they are well thought out, considered, and acted on. In those cases they should be punished - not just forgiven. Her crimes had nothing to do with making a "mistake"...


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Faceman has strong convictions, something very rare in this world today.
He is not alone in his distaste of Jane Fonda. Many share his feelings.
Now that it is known the author is serving time for sexual assualt no I would not purchase the book at a retail outlet.
I have read books by Sean Hannity, Bill O Rielly, and even Rush Limbaugh. I purchase them at Half Priced Books and the authors receive no money from the sale. Shalom


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

dbarabians said:


> I have read books by Sean Hannity, Bill O Rielly, and even Rush Limbaugh. I purchase them at Half Priced Books and the authors receive no money from the sale. Shalom


Haha...:rofl: True - their sales go to charity.

O'Reily is OK, Hannity is about as far right as what I can take, but Limbaugh was in the same graduating class at Wacko A & M as Michael Savage...


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Not to get into a political discussion but her intention was to put an end to the war, I think your presidents who declare war in countries where they have no business being are the ones ultimately responsible.


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## mind (Dec 14, 2011)

I'm with Waresbear.

I imagine, the difference in views on Jane Fonda are largely a result of the differing perspectives of Canadian's and American's on the Vietnam war as a whole. If as Canadian's our fellow countrymen had suffered equally to Americans as result of Fonda actions, it would be more difficult for us to forgive her now.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Whatever. 

I suppose you guys would also have applauded and forgiven, say, Whoopi Goldberg, if she had gone over and publicly congratulated Osama Bin Laden and his terorists in front of the world for his attacks of 9/11, bolstering the morale of his terrorists and urging them on to bigger and better things.

That is exactly what Jane Fonda did. For some reason neither of you can seem to grasp that - either that or you just don't care, which I really don't believe. Maybe it is a Canadian thing...don't know...


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I am not commenting anymore, I respect your opinion, and your values.


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## mind (Dec 14, 2011)

Faceman said:


> Whatever.
> 
> I suppose you guys would also have applauded and forgiven, say, Whoopi Goldberg, if she had gone over and publicly congratulated Osama Bin Laden and his terorists in front of the world for his attacks of 9/11, bolstering the morale of his terrorists and urging them on to bigger and better things.
> 
> That is exactly what Jane Fonda did. For some reason neither of you can seem to grasp that - either that or you just don't care, which I really don't believe. Maybe it is a Canadian thing...don't know...


Through my perspective, your example is very different than Jane Fonda's actions. It's entirely possible that I simply do not have a grasp on the negative impact Fonda had however, I do not deny that. Not only was I born two decades following the end of the Vietnam war, but I have no formal education on that unfortunate period in history since Canada was not involved. I read the webpage you linked to detailing Fonda's actions, but it has as much fact as irrelevant comments like, "Fonda's an admitted socialist," so I really only know the basics. 

I respect your position and the conviction you have to it.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

waresbear said:


> What did Jane Fonda do? I recall her talking about Vietnam protests saying how back then she was against the war but she certainly wasn't against those serving, did I miss something? Back in the 80's, her pregnancy work out tapes were the only decent programs around, guess I should have passed? Nope! I owe her big time!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've boycotted Hanoi Jane most of my life. I've always considered her a commie loving traitor who like most liberals will sell their soul to achieve an agenda.

I've softened some in the past few years and actually watched a western she was in a few weeks ago.

I mean, now that there's a commie in the white house I guess it's okay to forgive just a little isn't it?


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Faceman at least I got the Wacko part right.
> As a therapist I believe that people change and regret things that they have done.
> I do not believe that Jane Fonda is today the same person she was then. She regrets her actions.
> However someone still serving time for a crime committed may try a coerce others into believing they are reformed.
> ...


Okay, I wasn't going to say anything about treason lady Jane, but this I can't take. Wether it was vietnam or wwII...war is where people get killed. In this case, people got tortured on a daily basis - they called them prisoners of war in Vietnam - and every other war that I can think of in US history.

Where is the "passion" for those people that died and that were POW's?? Jane Fonda was just young and is not the same person? A lot of the vets that were in that war aren't the same person - and a lot of them never came back. Emotions on "both sides"?!? You mean on the US military side vs. Viet Cong? Jane Fonda didn't just wave a protest sign, she colluded w the enemy (unless, of course you think the VC was the good guy, like she did/does).


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

mind said:


> Through my perspective, your example is very different than Jane Fonda's actions. It's entirely possible that I simply do not have a grasp on the negative impact Fonda had however, I do not deny that. Not only was I born two decades following the end of the Vietnam war, but I have no formal education on that unfortunate period in history since Canada was not involved. I read the webpage you linked to detailing Fonda's actions, but it has as much fact as irrelevant comments like, "Fonda's an admitted socialist," so I really only know the basics.
> 
> I respect your position and the conviction you have to it.


That's just it - the example IS the same...exactly. I don't blame you or waresbear - you are both good folks, and I have no hard feelings and understand. I blame a society that doesn't teach history as it actually happened, but rather from the liberal perspective of our liberal textbooks and liberal teachers. The difference between Vietnam and 9/11, of course, is that it is easy for society to put a liberal spin on what happened in Vietnam because it was 3,000 miles away, but 9/11 happened here - pretty hard to tell it like it wasn't.

I'm just thankful that today our returning soldiers are treated like the heroes they are and not spit upon, shunned, not hired for jobs, and treated like murderers the way we were because of a society full of Jane Fondas, while the gutless cowards that ran to Canada with their tails between their legs were lauded and pardoned to lead normal lives...


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Missy May I know nothing about the Veit Congs point of view.
I was alludding to the those who supported the war and those that opposed it.
I am the son of a military officer who served in Veitnam and a brother who served after graduating college , voluntarily.
I remember those protesters and felt they were against my family personally.
Yes the emotions on both sides ran high. I remember them well. Shalom


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Missy May I know nothing about the Veit Congs point of view.
> I was alludding to the those who supported the war and those that opposed it.
> I am the son of a military officer who served in Veitnam and a brother who served after graduating college , voluntarily.
> I remember those protesters and felt they were against my family personally.
> Yes the emotions on both sides ran high. I remember them well. Shalom


A person shouldn't need to remember anything about a war or have participated in it to know what the word "war" means. I don't need to justify my position by my family tree or otherwise - which I can easily do. How would that "better" my position?

There was public outcry over gitmo. That is/was a five star spa relative to a POW camp in Vietnam. Yet, Jane Fonda _has_ a side?!? What was/is her side? Torture is good? The Khmer Rouge rocks? WHAT? 

It is extremely unfortunate that war often does not discriminate. If it only affected those people that thought we shouldn't have a defense system - we would all be much safer. I do not agree w many of the so called "wars" (aka - police actions) we are in now, but that doesn't mean I would justify or champion aiding and abetting the enemy.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I believe the Cheney adminstration should be prosecuted for War crimes for the torture it allowed not only in GITMO but worldwide.
Allowing torture only gave our enemies more fuel for the fire and weakened our position in the region.
More deaths occured in revenge in an already senseless war and prolonged the war.
As for as purchasing from anyone that has committed an harmful act, I nor anyone in my family have ever purchased anything made in Germany and I will not in my lifetime.
IMO the atrocities of WW2 have yet to be forgiven or forgotten. Shalom


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

dbarabians said:


> I believe the Cheney adminstration should be prosecuted for War crimes for the torture it allowed not only in GITMO but worldwide.
> Allowing torture only gave our enemies more fuel for the fire and weakened our position in the region.
> More deaths occured in revenge in an already senseless war and prolonged the war.
> As for as purchasing from anyone that has committed an harmful act, I nor anyone in my family have ever purchased anything made in Germany and I will not in my lifetime.
> IMO the atrocities of WW2 have yet to be forgiven or forgotten. Shalom


I don't recall a Cheney administration. As for the "torture" at GITMO, that torture is what led to us getting Osama Bin Laden...mission accomplished.

As to Germany, yeah, that one is a bit strange. As I am an Army brat, I lived in Germany from 1960 - 1963 when I was 13 - 16. Needless to say that wasn't long after the war. Not all Germans were Nazis, of course, but at that time there was a very pronounced sense of guilt among the regular population. Many of the adults at that time, although not themselves Nazis, got caught up in the frenzy, and took a lot of what Hitler preached hook, line, and sinker. It was definitely an awkward time when I was over there and there was a lot of tension. I haven't been back since, so don't have a "read" on the attitudes of the next couple of generations. As a sidebar, when we were over there we spent 2 weeks vacation in Leiden, Holland, and stayed with a family that was cousins to our landlord in Germany. They had hidden Jews during the war and had some interesting stories, although they were very sad...


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I refer to the former administration as the Cheney presidency because of the immense power he wielded.
The Neo Cons that made policy during the Bush Presidency set the US up for failure in Iraq and Afganistan.
I agree fully with your statement about the german public during WW2.
Boycotting german products was started by my grandfather who survived the Shoah.
If my children and their children choose to continue the practice it is up to them.
About the author convicted of sexual assualt , as a therapist, I have seen very few convicted sexual predators reformed.
Sexual assualt is a very serious crime. Those who are assualted have issues that linger a lifetime because of the sexual trauma they endured.
The emotional scars run deep.
I wonder if he was convicted of serial rape would the OP and others still purchase his books?
Just curious. Shalom


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I refer to the former administration as the Cheney presidency because of the immense power he wielded.
The Neo Cons that made policy during the Bush Presidency set the US up for failure in Iraq and Afganistan.
I agree fully with your statement about the german public during WW2.
Boycotting german products was started by my grandfather who survived the Shoah.
If my children and their children choose to continue the practice it is up to them.
About the author convicted of sexual assualt , as a therapist, I have seen very few convicted sexual predators reformed.
Sexual assualt is a very serious crime. Those who are assualted have issues that linger a lifetime because of the sexual trauma they endured.
The emotional scars run deep.
I wonder if he was convicted of serial rape would the OP and others still purchase his books?
Just curious. Shalom


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## northwesten (Apr 28, 2012)

I would! long it is legal because if they served their time then they done their time. Punishing them by not doing service to them will just makes no difference but most likely to redo it again if he can't make a honest living.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

I don't know about the sexual assault thing. I have known and know quite a few people that have been sexually assaulted - some as children, some as adults, who have no lingering issues at all. I suspect that I, as a common Joe running in normal circles, only encounter the ones that were not permanently "scarred", and you as a therapist/counselor, only encounter the ones that have issues. I think it is much like going through the terrors of war - some sustain PTSD and some don't. Some people seem to have the capacity to shake things off and get on with their lives - others don't. Being ignorant of psychology, I don't know if anyone has conducted a proper and objective study of just what type of person shakes those kinds of things off and what kind of person doesn't, so I don't know if it is a matter of genetics, environment, intelligence, or what...it would be interesting to know. In my case I think it is the ability to put undesireable things out of my mind. They are still in my subconscious because I still have nightmares now and then, but I instinctively (or consciously - don't know) suppress them so they never come to the surface, so I have had no issues in the 43 years that have gone by. Yet I know, and Mrs. Face obviously knows, many Vietnam vets that have barely been able to function and go through the motions of life. My first instinct is to think of them as weak in character, but logic tells me there has to be more to it than that that I am just ignorant of...


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

northwesten said:


> I would! long it is legal because if they served their time then they done their time. Punishing them by not doing service to them will just makes no difference but most likely to redo it again if he can't make a honest living.


I think much depends upon the crime. It is pretty much the consensus that certain types of sexual offenders cannot be rehabilitated in the sense of removal of the urges. So it is not a matter of paying their debt to society and walking away "cured". We all have urges, be they sexual or some other behavior that is unacceptable to society. Many of those urges are instinctive behaviors - remember, we have been around 2 million years, and have only been civilized for a few thousand years. I think people fall into two categories - those that resist those urges and those who do not - or cannot. I, and a lot of other people, are not convinced that crossing from the latter group to the former group happens that often. It does happen, of course, just as there are a handful of alcoholics that stay sober for the remainder of thier lives. But the odds are slim - I don't know what the odds are now, but when I was an ARTOP (Alcohol Related Traffic Offendor Program) instructor 22 years ago for the state of Missouri, the odds were that only 1 out of 36 alcoholics recovered permanently. Hopefully it is better by now...


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Faceman, I don't think anyone ever shakes off the burden of sexual trauma.
Some deal with it better than others. Their lives are changed forever.
Some function well for a number of years then fall apart after a memory is triggered.
Others mask thier pain for the remainder of thier lives.
How they process the fear pain and guilt of sexual trauma relates directly to how successful they are at functioning in life.
However they process it or not is of no fualt of thier own.. 
Faceman i applaud your understanding and open mind. It is evident that you have reached your positions in these debates by looking at both sides of the coin.
Our past histories have created each and everyone of us and we base our opinions on our own experiences and personalities. Shalom


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## mind (Dec 14, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> I believe the Cheney adminstration should be prosecuted for War crimes for the torture it allowed not only in GITMO but worldwide.
> Allowing torture only gave our enemies more fuel for the fire and weakened our position in the region.
> More deaths occured in revenge in an already senseless war and prolonged the war.
> As for as purchasing from anyone that has committed an harmful act, I nor anyone in my family have ever purchased anything made in Germany and I will not in my lifetime.
> IMO the atrocities of WW2 have yet to be forgiven or forgotten. Shalom


What are your feelings on purchasing items produced by countries who were allied with Germany during world WW2?

I only ask out of curiosity, as I have a friend whose father refuses to purchase items produced by any of the former Axis countries.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Depends on the country. Italy and Japan never practiced the racial cleansing espoused by the Germans. There were jews fighting in the hungarian and Finnish armies.
I will not purchase things from Austria or a few other countries.
No country was totally innocent in Europe especially occuppied France.
My father would not purchase things made in Japan.
The Germans and some of thier allies even in defeat continued to kill.
We Jews have a saying "Never Again, Never Forget". Shalom


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> I agree fully with your statement about the german public during WW2.
> Boycotting german products was started by my grandfather who survived the Shoah.
> If my children and their children choose to continue the practice it is up to them.


It seems you believe, overall in general, everyone that has been harmed by "x" or "y" should "see both sides", or whatnot. However, when it comes to _you, and yours - _it is "different". 

I am 100% unapologetic about countries I boycot, and I celebrate everyone's _right_ to descriminate.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Missy May once again IMO you oversimplify the Shoah and its legacy not only to the Jews but mankind in General.
When it comes to genocide there are not logically two sides to the issue and it is no longer a simple debate.
I need not explain nor appologize for my decisions especially to anyone who continually looks for a reason to argue. Shalom


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

For me it would depend on the crime. Cold blooded murder, rape, sexual assault, and ANY kind of crime against children/minors are all complete deal breakers for me, I don't care what the product is. There's always a substitute, or I can do without.

If 100% of the proceeds go to some sort of charitable organization that supports the victims of their crime, or compensates the families in some way....maybe....if I _really _wanted the product in question.

I don't believe in second chances for certain types of crimes. Not to say I'd give them all the chair by any means, just that I personally wouldn't ever go out of my way to support such individuals in any capacity.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Missy May once again IMO you oversimplify the Shoah and its legacy not only to the Jews but mankind in General.
> When it comes to genocide there are not logically two sides to the issue and it is no longer a simple debate.
> I need not explain nor appologize for my decisions especially to anyone who continually looks for a reason to argue. Shalom


I hardly think an observation warrants a personal attack.

To correct misinformation - I have never "oversimplified" or "complicated" the Shoah, since I have never discussed it. 

I wasn't asking you or anyone for an explanation of their personal right to boycot anything. I was suggesting that you tolerate everyone's right to do so...and not judge their basis for doing so as any better or worse than your own. 

Yes, I agree - there is no "side" to genocide, whether it takes place in Russia, China, Vietnam, or Europe. All of it is bad, _all_ of it.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Missy May after reading your last post I think I might have misunderstood the former one.
I agree with you whole heartedly about boycotting is a personal decision.
If one chooses to do so or not is neither right or wrong and no one should be judged on thier decision.
Please accept my apologies if I misinterpreted your post. The you and Yours threw me off and altered the meaning of your post .
If I ever seem intolerant of the views of others during a civil and intelligent debate I assure you it is not my meaning.
I may hold strong opinions on issues but that does not give mine anymore validity than those of others. Shalom


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Missy May after reading your last post I think I might have misunderstood the former one.
> I agree with you whole heartedly about boycotting is a personal decision.
> If one chooses to do so or not is neither right or wrong and no one should be judged on thier decision.
> Please accept my apologies if I misinterpreted your post. The you and Yours threw me off and altered the meaning of your post .
> ...


I respect anyone that admits when they have misunderstood something. If you were the first person that ever misunderstood my meaning, I might be surprised - but not offended. No apology necessary - its just a discussion and I try not to make or take discussions personally. But, I could make an exception in your case :lol: (kidding!).


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Missy May thanks for understanding.
Reading the post on these threads deprieves us of important details in the communication process.
If we ever meet you can take your revenge on me as long si it isn't too painful. Shalom


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I can't believe how many people on here perpetuate stereotypes and condemn the innocent.

"don't buuy anything from germany" so now every german is a nazi are they? you won't buy anything from the Germans, of whom the vast majority were not yet born when the attrocities happened.

Yet you will buy mass produced stuff from china where human rights dont exist, massive attrocities have been committed, mass genocide, mass infanticide. Political executions, Torture etc all within the last year!

Should I never ever buy anything american because of thier torture of prisoners in gitmo (and no matter what the results were it is wrong, america cannot take the moral high ground on any matter concernintg POW's if they continue to do this sort of thing) or because of americas failed attempts at empire (most of which have ended in thousands of innocent civillians dead) or because 250ish years ago one of your ancestors probably shot one of mine in the american revolution? or how about american slavery which is equivalent to mass torture and subjugation.
Should I judge you on the actions of your ancestors?

Don't even attempt to put a stake in the moral high ground when all you have to offer is hatred and discrimination!

BTW many of my friends are German, they are the most lovely people you will ever meet. I go skiing regularly in Austria and you would be hard pushed to find anyone who agrees with what was done nearly 70 years ago, they are extremely hospitable people who have a lot to offer.

I too come from a military family, both of my grandfathers survived concentraition camps during the 2nd world war, my grandfather on my mothers side because he was a British soldier captured in action, and on my fathers side because he was part of the Belgian resistance and sheltered Jews during the war (was caught doing so). My father was also in the army (artillery) and has seen conflict however non of us are as close minded and full of hatred as some of the people who have expressed oppinions on here!


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I have been to Germany and yes I do know that many are innocent and enlightened.
My grandfather and mother were originally from the Netherlands.
My mother escaped with her sisters. Of those who were captured only my grandfather survived.
Boycotting is my personal choice and I will stand by my decision to do so.
I need not defend it nor will I any further. Shalom


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

DBarabians, you can continue to boycott but if you do you cannot claim any sort of moral high ground. 

Personaly I find you guilty of as much racial hatred as the original Nazi's. That is how the whole problem started in the 2nd world war, it started with boycotting of jewish goods and services, then progressed to isolation and demonisation of the jews (makeing them identify themselves in public) and then on to concentration camps and ethnic cleansing.
It all started with boycotting of goods and services (AKA discrimination).

By boycotting them now (nearly 70 years after the entire country has paid for its sins) you essentialy call them all Nazi's.
You are just as guilty of hate and discrimination as they were!

I may hate what al-Qaeda did to both the US and the UK, however I am not going to go out and condemn every single Arab man, woman and child as being a terrorist nor am I going to deny the honest people a living. If they (the honest people) make a product that is useful to me then I will buy it.

I am not saying forget it ever happened for that way leads to history repeating itself, however those mostly responsible have paid with thier lives and the entire nation has paid enormously. Those that now live should not be punshed for the sins of thier fathers.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

faye said:


> DBarabians, you can continue to boycott but if you do you cannot claim any sort of moral high ground.
> 
> Personaly I find you guilty of as much racial hatred as the original Nazi's. That is how the whole problem started in the 2nd world war, it started with boycotting of jewish goods and services, then progressed to isolation and demonisation of the jews (makeing them identify themselves in public) and then on to concentration camps and ethnic cleansing.
> It all started with boycotting of goods and services (AKA discrimination).
> ...


Well, as a teenager I spent a long while in Germany, but I would have _really _rather have spent it in the UK - preferably Ireland. But, you are right, the people are friendly - at least the kids my age at the time were. They don't seem to have a lot of horses, and their approach to horses was too "different". I know its "life beyond horses" here...but, I was just saying why it does _not_ appeal to me...and why I never went back as an adult - and have little use for the country, in general.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

faye said:


> DBarabians, you can continue to boycott but if you do you cannot claim any sort of moral high ground.
> 
> Personaly I find you guilty of as much racial hatred as the original Nazi's. That is how the whole problem started in the 2nd world war, it started with boycotting of jewish goods and services, then progressed to isolation and demonisation of the jews (makeing them identify themselves in public) and then on to concentration camps and ethnic cleansing.
> It all started with boycotting of goods and services (AKA discrimination).
> ...


I am not Jewish, but even I take offense at that garbage. How in the world can you compare the Nazis to the Jews? I don't recall the Jews killing 6 million Germans. The Germans committed ethnic genocide for Heaven sakes. You may disagree with Jews that might boycott German products...that is your right and your opinion, but comparing them to Nazis is totally uncalled for, groundless, and quite frankly disgusting...


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Faye your posts lacks understanding and any historical basis.
To compare jews to the Nazis is antisemitic.
Boycotting German products has no comparision to racial hatred.
Over 25 MILLION people were slaughtered in 
WW2 and I do not purchase German products in memory of not only my Grandmother and Uncles that were brutally murdered, but the other 6 million Men Women and children who perished.
You may choose to purchase anything from anyone.
I have my reasons and they have nothing to do with the ignorant accussations you posted.
I will not forget the memory of the innocent people whose only crime was being born a Jew, a Pole, French, Gypsy, or Russian I could go on. Shalom


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