# Bitless on trail



## Belbe (Oct 24, 2010)

sure , both me and my cousin hack out our stallions on a leather halter. We found it's easier to control them around mares and stuff without anything hurting to add to the excitement, call us crazy but it just works better, LOL! plus a snug halter gives better steering power then a Dr. Cook, although it's not as good for breaks. Anyway, since they're sortta bomb-proof, they never run off so...

here's a couple'o shots of our "kids" bitless (one is 3.5 years old, the other is 5 years old)

http://public.bay.livefilestore.com...Z9m9mEIhtbVcbYAgTu1o0DElg/DSC09457.JPG?psid=1

http://public.bay.livefilestore.com...vqK9WOUBBqMI3BszDx-I0Mlyw/DSC09462.JPG?psid=1


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

Wow, you hack in a halter.. i admire your bombproof horses. oh, and i can't see your photos for some reason.

I rode today, just in the small riding field we have and any time i put the least bit of pressure on to slow him down he arched his back like he was going to try and buck me off. i think i might have to start looking into a different bridle for this horse. He's not bad, he just doesn't listen too well.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

There are a ton of variables in play with your question. I started all of our horses in a Dr. Cooks, but I never had any intention of keeping them in it. We ride western and the ultimate end product is to have a horse that will indirect rein. 
That aside, if you have a horse you trust not to run off under any circumstances, then sure ride in a piece of string. There aren't many horses like that, so ride in what you are comfortable with and what you feel safe in. On a trail, anything can happen. You need to be able to control your horse. 
I would never go off on a lone unfamiliar trail ride in one of my Dr. Cooks. Some will say that your horse just isn't trained properly. I say come home safe and in one piece  Humane, pain free, bit-less head gear can stay in the tack barn.


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## Belbe (Oct 24, 2010)

Oh that's ok, my colt used to do the same, it's just that he's not accepting the aids as cues but as some sort of punishment or intrusion. Can't you take some time to train him to the reins in-hand? use treats if need be just till he understands pressure on the reins is nothing to worry about. When he's happy in-hand try the same under saddle in a safe area and when that's settled, go out. But if you aren't sure, take someone on foot with you that you trust. My colt whent out hacking on his 3rd ridden lesson but I put a trusted friend on him and I whent on foot to help out if needed (like get him away from a car or something). If you can, also hack him in-hand. ~
I feel safe on a halter because I've done everything else with him from the ground (including hacking out) on a halter. he actually likes it better when I'm on top cos that means he doesn't have to move so slow, LOL!
My cousin's stallion was trained on a snaffle but when she found she could control him on a loose lead rope and halter from the ground she also started riding on a halter and it worked as well as with mine who never saw a bit. So I'm thinking what matters is mainly groundwork.

One thing on the Dr. Cook though: some horses get a tad confused with the crossover action (wich puts pressure on the cheeck from the oposite side) plus it has some leverage action. Practice in hand. If he gets used to it (should take no more than a week) fine, if not, try other bitless models, there many. Personally I preffer the snug fitting halter but it's best to try and see what works best on each horse.
And for safety reasons, practice the emergecy breaks (one rein halt). I've learnt to distrust any piece of tack that suposedly works as breaks since I found myself on a panicked horse with a double bridle that stressed even worse the more pressure I put on the reins! eventually he was running nose-to-chest full speed not even seeing where he was going! so from then on, I rely on a sturdy halter and a sturdy reins I made myself that I can use to put that head werever I wish without inficting pain but giving the horse no option of escape. One broken arm is enough... (this happened with my mare, she's afraid of everything)

oh, try and copy paste the links. Maybe the server doesn't allow direct link, I dunno...


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

phoenix said:


> Wow, you hack in a halter.. i admire your bombproof horses. oh, and i can't see your photos for some reason.
> 
> I rode today, just in the small riding field we have and any time i put the least bit of pressure on to slow him down he arched his back like he was going to try and buck me off. i think i might have to start looking into a different bridle for this horse. He's not bad, he just doesn't listen too well.


If I remember right, the Dr. Cooks is meant to be used with one rein only not with both at the same time. If you are working on stopping, do a left/right pulling motion not straight back with both reins. Also make sure you are not just relying on the head. Use your voice "whoa", your legs and seat first then if no response use your hands. 
Its been several years since my girls were at that stage so I may be wrong. You might go to their web site and check it out.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

Nope I was wrong once again. 
from the cooks site-


> *Braking:*
> A squeeze on both reins hugs the whole of the head and triggers a ‘submit’ response. This applies more effective brakes than that provided by a bit. The Bitless Bridle™ provides communication by applying painless pressure across the poll, behind the ears (a region of particular responsiveness), down the side of the face, under the chin and across the nose.


ETA
I guess not totally ;-) 


> If, when using the Bitless Bridle™, a horse should ever show signs of bolting, the rider can regain control by steering the horse into a circle. If this is not possible because of the surroundings then the rider can “saw” the reins to bring the horse back into control. Unlike the situation when using a bit, this rapid alternate traction on left and right rein (also referred to as “rattling” or “shaking” the reins) can be practiced without hurting the horse. Apply this aid vigorously and with authority, to get your horse’s attention. Remember also to sit back, deep in the saddle. Finally, all horses should be trained to respond to a verbal “WHOA!”


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## Belbe (Oct 24, 2010)

Vidaloco said:


> Finally, all horses should be trained to respond to a verbal “WHOA!”


 
Good one! I started with that one. I do have the time and understand some people don't. My horse is my big dog and I don't have any aims apart from teaching him new stuff and improving on what he already knows. In any case, it's worth the time. I gained a big fear of galloping outside after I shattered my arm but now that I have horse that slows down or halts without reins, be it because of mares, spooky stuff or watever, I can finally enjoy a good sprint with a careless smile on my face! Obviously I always use reins! I'm not completely nuts, but it's good to know they're only a safety precaution. My horse actually gets ****ed off if I don't speak first and use the reins to start with, it's almost like him saying: rude person! I'd do it if you'd asked! LOL! cos if he's ignoring me on purpouse, he'll accept the reins with no fuss. :lol:


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## Trails (Jan 28, 2009)

I used to use a hackamore but have since switched to a mild snaffle for trail riding. I find a bit more assuring than a hackamore, but that's just personal preference. I know many very experienced and competent trail riders that use hackamores and are quite happy with them. 

Use what you feel safest with and what you can reliably control your horse with in a bad situation. I concur completely with Vida's come home safely and in one piece. 

As far as neck reining, it's a very important skill for a trail horse to master. All of our horses neck rein, even our Icelandic with a classical dressage background. There is too much going on at times to have both hands on the reins.


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

Vidaloco said:


> There are a ton of variables in play with your question. I started all of our horses in a Dr. Cooks, but I never had any intention of keeping them in it. We ride western and the ultimate end product is to have a horse that will indirect rein.
> That aside, if you have a horse you trust not to run off under any circumstances, then sure ride in a piece of string. There aren't many horses like that, so ride in what you are comfortable with and what you feel safe in. On a trail, anything can happen. You need to be able to control your horse.
> I would never go off on a lone unfamiliar trail ride in one of my Dr. Cooks. Some will say that your horse just isn't trained properly. I say come home safe and in one piece  Humane, pain free, bit-less head gear can stay in the tack barn.


He was absolutely fine when i first started using the bitless, a bit confused about the different pressure but completely fine. He was even getting to the point where he would put his head down, relax and go in search of the pressure. But how, it's like that one bad experience has ruined it all. I figure i might get a bit, something easy on his mouth and see how it goes. i would really like to not feel as if at any moment he could so running off all because i don't have control. I had other people with me and one very green horse and i didn't want to cause them any harm either. to be honest, i just didn't feel all that safe the whole ride.



Belbe said:


> Oh that's ok, my colt used to do the same, it's just that he's not accepting the aids as cues but as some sort of punishment or intrusion. Can't you take some time to train him to the reins in-hand? use treats if need be just till he understands pressure on the reins is nothing to worry about. When he's happy in-hand try the same under saddle in a safe area and when that's settled, go out. But if you aren't sure, take someone on foot with you that you trust. My colt whent out hacking on his 3rd ridden lesson but I put a trusted friend on him and I whent on foot to help out if needed (like get him away from a car or something). If you can, also hack him in-hand. ~
> I feel safe on a halter because I've done everything else with him from the ground (including hacking out) on a halter. he actually likes it better when I'm on top cos that means he doesn't have to move so slow, LOL!
> My cousin's stallion was trained on a snaffle but when she found she could control him on a loose lead rope and halter from the ground she also started riding on a halter and it worked as well as with mine who never saw a bit. So I'm thinking what matters is mainly groundwork.
> 
> ...


i've been using it for over a year and he was accepting it perfectly fine. He's all of a sudden just decided he hates it. I've been long lining him in it, to build his confidence and change up his routine and he was doing okay, not so great with the steering as he tends to get distracted by anything shiny. 

i really wanted to take him out in hand but there were other people/horses there and i didn't want to inconvenience everyone. he has an emergency stop noise that works really well. I just want to be able to feel like i have a little more control of him when i'm riding, not only on trail but in the arena too. He gets bored really easily and stops listening. so i circle and do transitions. all well and good in the arena but trying to circle on trail while his buddies are getting away just leads to madness.

i'm either going to look into a bitted bridle or check out some of the other bitless models.



Vidaloco said:


> If I remember right, the Dr. Cooks is meant to be used with one rein only not with both at the same time. If you are working on stopping, do a left/right pulling motion not straight back with both reins. Also make sure you are not just relying on the head. Use your voice "whoa", your legs and seat first then if no response use your hands.
> Its been several years since my girls were at that stage so I may be wrong. You might go to their web site and check it out.



I did all that and more. The two rein stop is a lie, he just shook his head and pulled me around until he started to jig again. i tried the one rein after another, i tried sitting really deep, i was even throwing half halts in every few steps. i was saying "whoa" and "easy" and still i felt like i had no control. He jigged so much i couldn't walk the next day (i have scoliosis and am seeing a chiropractor) all because i couldn't get him under control.


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

Belbe said:


> Good one! I started with that one. I do have the time and understand some people don't. My horse is my big dog and I don't have any aims apart from teaching him new stuff and improving on what he already knows. In any case, it's worth the time. I gained a big fear of galloping outside after I shattered my arm but now that I have horse that slows down or halts without reins, be it because of mares, spooky stuff or watever, I can finally enjoy a good sprint with a careless smile on my face! Obviously I always use reins! I'm not completely nuts, but it's good to know they're only a safety precaution. My horse actually gets ****ed off if I don't speak first and use the reins to start with, it's almost like him saying: rude person! I'd do it if you'd asked! LOL! cos if he's ignoring me on purpouse, he'll accept the reins with no fuss. :lol:


He's trained to whoa, i taught him on the lunge line. On trail he just ignores me so i'd like to have something to back it up with if necessary.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

I'm not great at recommending bits but I would suggest a snaffle with french link type mouthpiece for the trail. The double break would take some of the pressure off the bars and give good tongue relief. 
Keep working with him at home in the Dr. Cooks. He needs to learn to give to that pressure, not fight it. 
Sounds like he is just being a stinker. 
I started my kids in the Cooks then the Cooks with a bit back up similar to the two rein Vaquero style. Use the Cooks but have the bit for back up. 
Here is a good article on Vaquero if you're interested. You can just skip down to the two rein part. I just used the Cooks instead of a hackamore. http://www.horsechannel.com/western-horse-training/vaquero-way-17722.aspx
You might feel safer if you used this method the next time you ride.


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## Amlalriiee (Feb 22, 2010)

Well, honestly (and I think this has been said) it depends on the horse. For most of the trail horses I ride I use hackamores on the trail and they're great with it. For my horse I had been using a kimberwicke because she's got no brakes, now I use a snaffle because we're improving a lot in our communication. I would like to try a hackamore and see if she's just one that prefers the nose pressure to the bit...but haven't tried it yet. She's only been mine for a month. I don't think the trail itself has much to do with it...whatever works best overall for your horse is what you should use. The only thing to consider is that your horse may act different on the trail/spook/etc. If that's the case I'd stay on the safe side until you and your horse have enough trail experience that you're not worried about it.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

I ride my mare out on the trail bitless. Heck, I never ride her with a bit. At camp this last summer (because I'm kind of a show off, haha) I rode her on the trail with nothing on her face at all (however, she knew exactly where she was going and she's trained well).

At first I felt really uncomfortable with the whole "bitless" idea but now I actually feel like I have more control in my "Indian Hackamore" than when I had her in a bit. That's not true for all horses, but she really likes bitless and I really like what she really likes.

Definitely give a snaffle a try. However, if you like riding him in the Cook's then don't give up on it. He may just need a tune-up of sorts with what the correct response is to it. I'd practice in the arena until he's basically perfect (adjustable at all gaits, stops perfectly, turns really well, etc), then try it out on the trail again. In the meantime I don't think it's at all unreasonable to ride him in a snaffle on the trail.


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## whitetrashwarmblood (Aug 24, 2008)

I ride Athena in a halter and lead rope while bareback on trails alone or with a group. She's listens perfectly fine for the most part... if we're only going to walk and trot. If I know that we'll be going faster than a trot, I ride her in a loose ring french link snaffle. I do this because of two reasons, when I go faster than a trot with just halter she'll sometimes throw a crow-hop fit just because she can. And because she gets carried away when we're racing and doesn't always listen to me. 

What I did with Athena when I wanted to start taking her out on trails alone was just walk her around the block. The barn she's located at is literally in the middle of a neighborhood, so most of the trail riding is on the road. 
At first, she was very upset. She's not barn sour, but she doesn't like to leave her friends. She wouldn't listen to me at first, but after a few more rides she realized that it wasn't really a big deal. I practiced stopping, walking, backing up, and anything to keep her sharp while we were out. She's still much more alert when we're alone, but she does exactly what I want. 
So know I've been taking her down another road. It's about the same length as the other one, but completely different street. At first, she was timid, and now that it's fall it's really windy and lots of leaves are blowing everywhere which doesn't help me calm her down. And no matter what I did, she was more concerned about all the leaves and how windy it is. What I discovered helps is I actually sing/hum to her. :lol: Not loud, but she seems to like If I Die Young by The Band Perry. Haha. It really makes a difference. I think I unconsciously get a little tense when I notice she gets hyper, so I think singing helps me relax and in turn relaxes her.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I vary alot in what I ride with...mostly I ride with a simple ring snaffle, because that's what my mare likes, but will also ride in an English Hackemore, and rope halter. She doesn't like a traditional bitless bridle (I think because of the different pressure on her face it creates but she doesn't mind the english hack, bosal, or rope halter at all. 

I teach every horse I train or ride a solid one rein stop, in a controlled environment. I also do alot of bending and flexing, in and outside of the arena so I know that they are attentive and willing to "give" their head and neck to me at any time.


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

Vidaloco said:


> I'm not great at recommending bits but I would suggest a snaffle with french link type mouthpiece for the trail. The double break would take some of the pressure off the bars and give good tongue relief.
> Keep working with him at home in the Dr. Cooks. He needs to learn to give to that pressure, not fight it.
> Sounds like he is just being a stinker.
> I started my kids in the Cooks then the Cooks with a bit back up similar to the two rein Vaquero style. Use the Cooks but have the bit for back up.
> ...


I was looking at either the french link or just the regular snaffle, i like the idea that the french link might give some relief. I will keep working him in the cooks because while he's not liking it much right now, i really like it. I like knowing i'm not putting pressure on his mouth, you know? He is a real stinker, a friend of mine rode him today and after about 5 minutes of him basically going where he wanted and randomly changing direction she yelled over "how do you ride this thing?" Thanks for the link, i'll definitely check it out.



Amlalriiee said:


> Well, honestly (and I think this has been said) it depends on the horse. For most of the trail horses I ride I use hackamores on the trail and they're great with it. For my horse I had been using a kimberwicke because she's got no brakes, now I use a snaffle because we're improving a lot in our communication. I would like to try a hackamore and see if she's just one that prefers the nose pressure to the bit...but haven't tried it yet. She's only been mine for a month. I don't think the trail itself has much to do with it...whatever works best overall for your horse is what you should use. The only thing to consider is that your horse may act different on the trail/spook/etc. If that's the case I'd stay on the safe side until you and your horse have enough trail experience that you're not worried about it.


When he used to be on trail he was in a snaffle and did okay, he spooked and was a little anxious but he was 5 so it's understandable. I agree that it depend on the horse. the green horse we were out with was also in a dr.cooks and he was an angel, he got a little fast for his owner, but compared to phoenix he was a real gentleman. I think i'll probably give the snaffle a try, maybe tune up our communication, but also keep working him in the dr. cooks too and see if that gets any better. 

he's much different on trail to when he's at home. At home he acts like he's 1000 years old and every step is like i'm killing him making him do all the work. on trail he's like a 2 year old idiot.



Wallaby said:


> I ride my mare out on the trail bitless. Heck, I never ride her with a bit. At camp this last summer (because I'm kind of a show off, haha) I rode her on the trail with nothing on her face at all (however, she knew exactly where she was going and she's trained well).
> 
> At first I felt really uncomfortable with the whole "bitless" idea but now I actually feel like I have more control in my "Indian Hackamore" than when I had her in a bit. That's not true for all horses, but she really likes bitless and I really like what she really likes.
> 
> Definitely give a snaffle a try. However, if you like riding him in the Cook's then don't give up on it. He may just need a tune-up of sorts with what the correct response is to it. I'd practice in the arena until he's basically perfect (adjustable at all gaits, stops perfectly, turns really well, etc), then try it out on the trail again. In the meantime I don't think it's at all unreasonable to ride him in a snaffle on the trail.


I haven't ridden him with a bit this whole year and he's been absolutely fine. I never had the "bitless" anxiety, i thought it was great and so did he; he stopped bucking and stopped doing his little circles. Just recently he's also stopped listening. I'll definitely keep using the dr. cooks just because i like it and have it so why not. I'll get a snaffle i think (hopefully in a closeout sale somewhere) and give that a try. He needs a lot of basics gone over again, his year i basically started him form scratch and it was going well, maybe the trail ride was too soon for us. 



whitetrashwarmblood said:


> I ride Athena in a halter and lead rope while bareback on trails alone or with a group. She's listens perfectly fine for the most part... if we're only going to walk and trot. If I know that we'll be going faster than a trot, I ride her in a loose ring french link snaffle. I do this because of two reasons, when I go faster than a trot with just halter she'll sometimes throw a crow-hop fit just because she can. And because she gets carried away when we're racing and doesn't always listen to me.
> 
> What I did with Athena when I wanted to start taking her out on trails alone was just walk her around the block. The barn she's located at is literally in the middle of a neighborhood, so most of the trail riding is on the road.
> At first, she was very upset. She's not barn sour, but she doesn't like to leave her friends. She wouldn't listen to me at first, but after a few more rides she realized that it wasn't really a big deal. I practiced stopping, walking, backing up, and anything to keep her sharp while we were out. She's still much more alert when we're alone, but she does exactly what I want.
> So know I've been taking her down another road. It's about the same length as the other one, but completely different street. At first, she was timid, and now that it's fall it's really windy and lots of leaves are blowing everywhere which doesn't help me calm her down. And no matter what I did, she was more concerned about all the leaves and how windy it is. What I discovered helps is I actually sing/hum to her. :lol: Not loud, but she seems to like If I Die Young by The Band Perry. Haha. It really makes a difference. I think I unconsciously get a little tense when I notice she gets hyper, so I think singing helps me relax and in turn relaxes her.


I like the idea of the french link snaffle, a few people have suggested that. how would i measure his mouth so i know i'm getting him the right size?

Phoenix is a little odd, he works so much better when he's by himself. if there's another horse in the arena he gets so distracted and acts like i'm not there. we've been working on that. I think maybe on trail he might do okay on his own. I'd really like to take him along and just walk him around, maybe hand walk him until he calmed down, that way he could forget about the other horses and concentrate on me. I did that on trail, i was singing to myself. I was singing twinkle twinkle little star because my mind had gone blank of any other songs. for the most part the middle part (the hilly part) of the trail he was somewhat relaxed then when everyone else got excited that we were almost home he got a little too strong. Also, i'm so glad that phoenix isn't the only horse scared of leaves!



mom2pride said:


> I vary alot in what I ride with...mostly I ride with a simple ring snaffle, because that's what my mare likes, but will also ride in an English Hackemore, and rope halter. She doesn't like a traditional bitless bridle (I think because of the different pressure on her face it creates but she doesn't mind the english hack, bosal, or rope halter at all.
> 
> I teach every horse I train or ride a solid one rein stop, in a controlled environment. I also do alot of bending and flexing, in and outside of the arena so I know that they are attentive and willing to "give" their head and neck to me at any time.


I think that's what's putting him off, the different pressure. He's very stiff on both sides really and i do try to get him to bend and flex but it seems quite tricky with the bitless, like he doesn't really understand what i was of him so he throws a hissy fit. He does okay with all of the outside rein exercises we do, like slowing and such but for some reason doesn't do so well with the bending, also doesn't do well with circles.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

Kinda makes me wonder if he is having some pain issues?


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

He has a bit of a gimpy hip and he is chiropractor-ed regularly for it. He can't canter very well, is incredibly unbalanced and we've been working on getting him more balanced lunging him in side reins. I try and keep his workload incredibly light and at the first sign his hips might be bothering him i stop riding him and get the chiropractor out. he was just seen this past tuesday.

He was off work for two years with it but got so fat that he had to do some work, it's very light i can assure you. I don't push him all that hard. All we do at home is walking and trotting.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

My Saro has upwardly fixating patella. I work her very lightly as well and she has a hard time going to the right. 
I understand completely, I sometimes cut her more slack and let her be naughty more than I should. Its like having a sick child in a large family. The unhealthy one gets away with more and that's the way it should be.


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## whitetrashwarmblood (Aug 24, 2008)

phoenix said:


> I was looking at either the french link or just the regular snaffle, i like the idea that the french link might give some relief. I will keep working him in the cooks because while he's not liking it much right now, i really like it. * I like knowing i'm not putting pressure on his mouth, you know?* He is a real stinker, a friend of mine rode him today and after about 5 minutes of him basically going where he wanted and randomly changing direction she yelled over "how do you ride this thing?" Thanks for the link, i'll definitely check it out.


When I ride, even with the bit, I very rarely put pressure on her mouth. I use my voice and leg commands mostly. Riding with the bit is like the extra brake, just in case. 




> When he used to be on trail he was in a snaffle and did okay, he spooked and was a little anxious but he was 5 so it's understandable. I agree that it depend on the horse. the green horse we were out with was also in a dr.cooks and he was an angel, he got a little fast for his owner, but compared to phoenix he was a real gentleman. I think i'll probably give the snaffle a try, maybe tune up our communication, but also keep working him in the dr. cooks too and see if that gets any better.
> 
> he's much different on trail to when he's at home. At home he acts like he's 1000 years old and every step is like i'm killing him making him do all the work. on trail he's like a 2 year old idiot.


I would just start going back to the basics for a tune up. I did that with Athena this summer when I barely had time to ride her last winter. She basically turned into a pasture puff, and didn't want to change.  Athena's the same way; she's super lazy when she's relaxed. 
She's an angel at home alone or with a group, and she's an angel on the trail but only with other horses. When she's alone she's a different horse, but she just needs practice.



> I haven't ridden him with a bit this whole year and he's been absolutely fine. I never had the "bitless" anxiety, i thought it was great and so did he; he stopped bucking and stopped doing his little circles. Just recently he's also stopped listening. I'll definitely keep using the dr. cooks just because i like it and have it so why not. I'll get a snaffle i think (hopefully in a closeout sale somewhere) and give that a try. He needs a lot of basics gone over again, his year i basically started him form scratch and it was going well, maybe the trail ride was too soon for us.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He probably needs a 5 or 5 1/2 inch bit. Just take a piece of baling twine, put it in his mouth, mark the ends, and measure it like that. 

With him being distracted by other horses, it seems like he's a little green. How old is he again? My mare was like that when I first got her, and let me tell you it took a while to get over it. Just keep him occupied with backing up, trot, walk, backing up, stop. Give him something to do, take his mind off his friends. 




> I think that's what's putting him off, the different pressure. He's very stiff on both sides really and i do try to get him to bend and flex but it seems quite tricky with the bitless, like he doesn't really understand what i was of him so he throws a hissy fit. He does okay with all of the outside rein exercises we do, like slowing and such but for some reason doesn't do so well with the bending, also doesn't do well with circles.


I would try the snaffle than even if it was just for this reason. Once he realizes what you want in the snaffle you can transfer that knowledge over to the bitless, and hopefully he'll catch on right away. I know all about those hissy fits, and it seems like he wants to do what you ask. But he's confused about what you want. The bit would help.

Circles take practice, try lots of figure 8s and serpentines too. What my old trainer had me do on circles (cuz Athena's stiff on her right shoulder) is hold my inside rein a tad higher than the outside rein, and make sure you look up and out not down and in. It makes a biggg difference.


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

It's true. I'm always making excuses for him. It's mostly not his fault, he was started quite young i believe and by a 300lbs guy who wasn't the nicest person in the world. Plus he was beaten before i got him and was so head shy for the first year i had him. I always feel so sorry for him, when i decided to retire him two years ago i got such grief off so many people. One trainer took one look at him and told me to take him to the sales and get what i could for him. 

Someone though for a while that he might have kissing spine but it was never diagnosed, i couldn't afford to have him hauled out to a vet clinic hand have his back x-rayed.

If it came to it and i couldn't ride him i wouldn't, but until that day comes i'll keep him in light work and well do what he can comfortably (and safely), which is why i thought trail riding would be a good idea to get into. All the trails i've been on (even on him back in the day) were nice and peaceful and easy. He's just gotten a little headstrong as he's gotten older.


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

whitetrashwarmblood said:


> When I ride, even with the bit, I very rarely put pressure on her mouth. I use my voice and leg commands mostly. Riding with the bit is like the extra brake, just in case.
> 
> 
> I would just start going back to the basics for a tune up. I did that with Athena this summer when I barely had time to ride her last winter. She basically turned into a pasture puff, and didn't want to change.  Athena's the same way; she's super lazy when she's relaxed.
> ...


when i ride at home the reins practically hang loose, i use my seat and legs, occasionally my voice for reassurance. he just doesn't like having his head pulled on.

he had two years off and was as stubborn as an old mule when i first started him back. he was lazy (still is) and slow (still is) and mostly just plodded around, not much has changed. 

I'll measure it tomorrow, i think last time he took a 5 inch but i'll measure to make sure. 

He's nine, but like i said he's had time off and was very green when i got him. i basically got him when he was 5 and rode him for about 6 months then retired him due to his back/hip issues. I only really brought him back into light work because he was getting to be the size of a small country. I've been recruiting other owners from the barn to ride with me in the arena so we can practice ignoring the other horses; we ride past them, something he hates very much and we follow them and sometimes we even take the lead (reluctantly on his part) and he's getting a little better at not freaking out.

yeah i thought about that, get him a bit more focused and knowing what i want with the snaffle and then trying to go back to the bitless once he's got a little more training under his belt.

I'll try that when i do circles, we also do that spiraling in and then out thing.


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## whitetrashwarmblood (Aug 24, 2008)

phoenix said:


> when i ride at home the reins practically hang loose, i use my seat and legs, occasionally my voice for reassurance. he just doesn't like having his head pulled on.
> 
> he had two years off and was as stubborn as an old mule when i first started him back. he was lazy (still is) and slow (still is) and mostly just plodded around, not much has changed.
> 
> ...



Hehe a small country... 

Well, it sounds like you've got it figured out. 
You said you have the chiropractor out when he needs it. Have you thought about saving up for an x-ray? I know of two mares with hip problems. They both fell at a young age, and have never been the same since. They're both still ride-able though. Is he on a joint supplement? I've had good results with MSM. 

Oh man, that spiraling thing drives me nuts. I always try to avoid having to do it whenever possible. haha Gets me dizzy. 

One thing you could try before riding him is picking up his front legs and stretching them for him, and if he'll let you take his tail and slowly and softly pull it just an inch or two side to side to help get the kinks out of his back. I saw it in a horse magazine once, and have been doing ever since with good results. There's tons of info on stretching for horses. Just google it. 

Another thing I do is take a treat and hold it by his flank, middle of his belly, shoulder, etc. All different angles, and make him reach for it, he can't turn around, he must reach. At first, he might not be able to reach really far, but after a while he might even reach past his flanks!


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

I thought about saving for the xrays but the place near here that would be able to do them is very expensive, like ridiculous. I could take him to OSU but again it's expensive and a drive and i don't have a trailer. I'd love to do it some day and am putting away small amounts with my very tight budget, until he gets so painful he can't be ridden i can't really (and this sounds awful) justify the expense. I've had the vet look at him and he says he should be fine with light work. I don't have him on a joint supplement but i'll consider it, i never even thought of that to be honest but it might help.

I quite like the spiral exercise, he doesn't like it but i do. 

I'll give the leg stretching a try and he'll let me pull on his tail so 'll add that too. I do the carrot stretches with him already, sometimes he's better than others but he enjoys those carrots too much to not give it a go.


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## Tahlia (Aug 30, 2010)

aloha... lol i dont know were else to write this but im a green rider riding a green horse and i ride using a halter... its simple... i thought that it was goijng to be harder but i like it plain and simple... 
ps for all the people out there who think green and green dont match maybe think again...


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## Belbe (Oct 24, 2010)

oh... that sounds like my mare then, LOL! troublesom preety thing... hmmm... if all of the sudden he hates it first check if he doesn't have pain in the nose anywhere like my colt once got his nose broken wile annoying his brother. 
If all's fine then it might just be saturation with routine like you said, my mare got it often when I was too lazy to keep work interestning. 
Does he know shoulder-in, travers, etc? That's what I use to keep my mare focused on trails: I zigzag the trail with shoulder in, half-pass, etc, every exercise I know that keeps her concentrated. I sometimes even ask for the spanish walk cos it forces her to focus on each of her feet seperately. Ofcourse I bought my mare with all this training done but I'm finding it fairly easy to teach to my colt so it's worth a try. Do try the snug halter at the school, at least with my mare I have much better control than the Dr. Cook. And before I learnt to trust the halter I used to ride her on a curb bit and halter. The curb reins would hang loose attached to the saddle and I would ride from the halter. If for any reason she got heavy to the aids I'd give a small reminder on the curb. I noticed that using the curb as little as possible (like once in the entire lesson) worked 100 times better than riding from it to start with.


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## Belbe (Oct 24, 2010)

Tahlia said:


> aloha... lol i dont know were else to write this but im a green rider riding a green horse and i ride using a halter... its simple... i thought that it was goijng to be harder but i like it plain and simple...
> ps for all the people out there who think green and green dont match maybe think again...


thumbs up for you!!!!

as for the green+green, it depends on the green and green, LOL! green horse is sometimes safer because they don't come with any mistakes on the "programing", I personally only like green horses! and green rider may be better because they also don't come with ingrained beliefs that they know everything and are ready to listen to the horse. However, if green rider is not able to listen and tries to use unskilled force something bad's gonna happen...

Me and my cousin are both green on green stallions! and works just fine! =D we do a lot of reading though... if it weren't for Klaus Hempfling we probably have had to castrate our boys...


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

Belbe said:


> oh... that sounds like my mare then, LOL! troublesom preety thing... hmmm... if all of the sudden he hates it first check if he doesn't have pain in the nose anywhere like my colt once got his nose broken wile annoying his brother.
> If all's fine then it might just be saturation with routine like you said, my mare got it often when I was too lazy to keep work interestning.
> Does he know shoulder-in, travers, etc? That's what I use to keep my mare focused on trails: I zigzag the trail with shoulder in, half-pass, etc, every exercise I know that keeps her concentrated. I sometimes even ask for the spanish walk cos it forces her to focus on each of her feet seperately. Ofcourse I bought my mare with all this training done but I'm finding it fairly easy to teach to my colt so it's worth a try. Do try the snug halter at the school, at least with my mare I have much better control than the Dr. Cook. And before I learnt to trust the halter I used to ride her on a curb bit and halter. The curb reins would hang loose attached to the saddle and I would ride from the halter. If for any reason she got heavy to the aids I'd give a small reminder on the curb. I noticed that using the curb as little as possible (like once in the entire lesson) worked 100 times better than riding from it to start with.


He has a bone spur under his jaw from a kick in teh field, vet said it was fine and would heal just fine. The problem could be this though as the bitless (even with resizing) sometimes pushes against it. Maybe it's just gotten to irritating for him and he's had enough. 

I'll get one of his old halters which should be shug and use it with the new bridle and snaffle bit i'm getting him. then i can ride with two sets of reins and try just using the bit when it becomes necessary.

He doesn't kow any of those fancy movements but i'd love to try teaching him. i started to work him towards leg yield but again with the bitless i feel he doesn't understand what i want from him. so maybe changing his head gear will give him a better clue. if i could get him familiar with some of those movements and ask for them on trail i could keep his focus on me instead of on the pretty leaves.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

If he has hind quarter problems, you might want to nix any circle work. I know it does more harm than good on Saro. We climb every hill we can find and just ride in general. I think if you can just get out and ride him every day for even half to an hour, it would be great for him. I don't do any circles or yielding of the hind quarters on Saro. She know how, I just don't do it. When she is older and more muscled up in her hinds, I'll start working them sideways again. 
Again the best way to build up the hind quarters is going up hills. If you do circles do big ones.


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## Ktibb (Mar 24, 2010)

Hi, I'm late to post here and I haven't read all of the posts yet (will go back when I have more time) but I just thought I would throw in my $0.02.

I now ride my mare bitless exclusivly. I use my own design, its a bitless cross under similar to the Dr. Cooks, but it's made of rope and has a built in halter as well with extra nose knots. I've used it in some bretty hairy situations and my mare is by no means a seasoned trail horse. For her the bit was more of a distraction initially... so I sent her out for training (two months while I took lessons on her) and although she grew to accept it, neither of us really liked it. So I decided to switch to bitless and we are now much happier and enjoy trail rides so much more.

More details on the bridle through my link below, or on ebay, search "Rydem Bitless"


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

Tahlia said:


> aloha... lol i dont know were else to write this but im a green rider riding a green horse and i ride using a halter... its simple... i thought that it was goijng to be harder but i like it plain and simple...
> ps for all the people out there who think green and green dont match maybe think again...



How long have you been riding your horse in a halter. Thats what we started Hunter in but he started to become very unresponsive to it so I upped it to a Barefoot Bitless and now we are graduating to a snaffle as he has figured out how to hold his head so that renders the bitless useless. We are back to basics on training. Only been riding him for 5 months


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I didn't read all of the posts , so I'm sorry if Im repeating some things. 

I do not personally ride my horse in a bitless bridle/halter/bosal/etc off property. I do occaisionally ride him in a halter on property and while he's "fine" and tolerates it, he is not very responsive and requires a stronger cue to get a response. His current bit is a french link snaffle so it isn't a harsh bit and I find I generally just need a slight cue along with normal leg/seat cues.

I'm not averse to trying a different bitless method and would like to try a bosal at some point. The Dr. Cook didn't work for him, but I'm excited to try Ktibb's bitless Rydem. 

My only concern with going bitless on the trail is my horse's tendency to spin and bolt in about 2 seconds flat when frightened by something. He has almost run us into the highway more than once. He gets scared and he gets extremely stupid. Seeing as he requires stronger cues with the halter at home than the bit, it isn't something I feel confident risking on the road. It's funny because he is **** near perfect at home w/ the bit. Extremely subtle cues, relaxed, well behaved, basically "perfect". When we leave the property he becomes a different horse, though he has gotten a lot better it's still a little hairy sometimes. IF he ever gets "trustworthy" off property and I find a bitless that allows me to give the subtle cues I wouldn't have a problem with it. 

I envy those of you with "bombproof" non barn/herd sour horses. It's the only thing I would change about Soda.


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## Belbe (Oct 24, 2010)

phoenix said:


> He has a bone spur under his jaw from a kick in
> He doesn't kow any of those fancy movements but i'd love to try teaching him. i started to work him towards leg yield but again with the bitless i feel he doesn't understand what i want from him. so maybe changing his head gear will give him a better clue. if i could get him familiar with some of those movements and ask for them on trail i could keep his focus on me instead of on the pretty leaves.


LOL! those aren't fancy moves, it's just snob dressage riders that think that. I'm just a happy hacker and I teach them to all horses I ride. First one I teach is leg-yield and won't dare ride in traffic till the horse knows it by heart! it's a life saver sometimes! then when he does that, all the others are very easy to teach cos he already knows one calf pushing means schooch over the other way. I taught mine from the ground first cos it's heaps easier, almost everyone uses it when washing the horse. Then if he doesn't understand the pressure means the same under saddle you can ask a friend to push him aside from the ground wile you give the aids. If u normaly use carrots for the strech, save some as reward for this, he'll learn in a snap if he understands he gets carrot for every effort. 

One thing is important though, if he's not used to rein pressure, try to use neck rein aids and weight aids as much as possible and don't fuss much about his neck position at first. Some of these movements require pressure on both reins at the beginning till the horse understands how to place the neck and they usually hate getting constricted, tense up, and the exercise is ruined. So at first I usually only care that the horse scootches over easy and fluid. Shoulder in on the circle is also very easy to teach, easier for the horse to understand than on a straight line cos you don't have to worry about him confusing the head inside with leaving the wall track.


Double rein with halter is very good for building trust overall, at least that's what I've seen so far. Usually more for the rider. I remmeber my cousin's stallion used to hate the snaffle but she felt more secure just having it there and that made him calmer as no horse feels comfortable with someone nervous sitting on top, least to say a green stallion.

let us know how it goes! 

btw, is he shod? sometimes pulling of the shoes and getting some boots if need be helps horses feel better as it takes a good load of impact off the joints and stay in the hoof. However, it takes some toll in the care part. Plus I dunno how far it can help the back unless indirectly from possibly improving the gait... :think:


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## Belbe (Oct 24, 2010)

Hunter65 said:


> How long have you been riding your horse in a halter. Thats what we started Hunter in but he started to become very unresponsive to it so I upped it to a Barefoot Bitless and now we are graduating to a snaffle as he has figured out how to hold his head so that renders the bitless useless. We are back to basics on training. Only been riding him for 5 months


 
aoch, that doesn't sound right... a horse should get lighter and not heavier with training. If he only behaves because he respects the tack, then eventually not even a long shank curb will work. Try to go back to ground work, build trust and respect for each other. I usually say I whant my horse to respect me, not the tack. The tack is a thing and they only respect it out of fear of being hurt, but the the problem with that is they get used to the pain and eventually start to ignore it. 
For instance, when my horse threatens to bolt or disobey in any way I just relax down in the saddle and warn him in a stern teacher voice "Chopin... what do you think you're doing?" or just warn "heh!" and then pet the moment he responds right like nothing happened and all's great with the world. 
Each horse is a different so keep searching for what's wrong and what works best but try not to depend on tack as a rule of thumb. For instance, If a horse doesn't lunge from a halter and needs punishment on his nose already something's off. Sure it comes handy if the horse spooks or if you bought a horse with previous problems, but most of the time the horse should be happy to work close to you and not try to run off. The arena isn't a very interestning place so theoretically it should be easier to make ourselves more interestning than the ground and walls... or so I believe...


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## cibolo creek outfit (Oct 25, 2010)

so i can better understand the horse, Is the horse boarded?, How many times a week is it ridden?, How many times a week is it taken different places?, Is the horse allowed out in pastured or is it stalled?, have a buddy or by itself?, is the horse ever out in time out? How old is the horse?


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## Ktibb (Mar 24, 2010)

Belbe said:


> aoch, that doesn't sound right... a horse should get lighter and not heavier with training. If he only behaves because he respects the tack, then eventually not even a long shank curb will work. Try to go back to ground work, build trust and respect for each other. I usually say I whant my horse to respect me, not the tack. The tack is a thing and they only respect it out of fear of being hurt, but the the problem with that is they get used to the pain and eventually start to ignore it.
> 
> Each horse is a different so keep searching for what's wrong and what works best but try not to depend on tack as a rule of thumb. For instance, If a horse doesn't lunge from a halter and needs punishment on his nose already something's off. Sure it comes handy if the horse spooks or if you bought a horse with previous problems, but most of the time the horse should be happy to work close to you and not try to run off. The arena isn't a very interestning place so theoretically it should be easier to make ourselves more interestning than the ground and walls... or so I believe...


 
I very strongly agree with this...


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

Ktibb said:


> I very strongly agree with this...



I guess I didn't explain that properly. Anyways we are back to working with the trainer and he is actually very light in the bit. He is also very smart in a crafty pony kinda way lol.


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

I would love to do hills, i long for hills, sometimes i dream of hills. Unfortunately i live in Ohio and until i own a trailer of my own hills will remain a dream. 

Although today was so bad that he will be resting in the field for a few days until i have calmed down enough to go see him again.. he's so smart, he learns really quickly but he's pulling this "i don't know anything and am completely stupid" crap with me right now. He knows walk, trot and canter commands, we've been using them for a year and tonight he decided that those commands mean nothing, suddenly he listens to only Martian!! He knew i was getting ****ed at him though, i was free lunging him so he could stretch out his back and neck and relax a little and all he wanted to do was stick his head as far as it would go and ignore me, so i was getting more mad and he wouldn't come anywhere near me... i must have looked like an incredibly ****y mare tonight.

sometimes horses are just so frustrating its unbelievable.


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

Belbe said:


> LOL! those aren't fancy moves, it's just snob dressage riders that think that. I'm just a happy hacker and I teach them to all horses I ride. First one I teach is leg-yield and won't dare ride in traffic till the horse knows it by heart! it's a life saver sometimes! then when he does that, all the others are very easy to teach cos he already knows one calf pushing means schooch over the other way. I taught mine from the ground first cos it's heaps easier, almost everyone uses it when washing the horse. Then if he doesn't understand the pressure means the same under saddle you can ask a friend to push him aside from the ground wile you give the aids. If u normaly use carrots for the strech, save some as reward for this, he'll learn in a snap if he understands he gets carrot for every effort.
> 
> One thing is important though, if he's not used to rein pressure, try to use neck rein aids and weight aids as much as possible and don't fuss much about his neck position at first. Some of these movements require pressure on both reins at the beginning till the horse understands how to place the neck and they usually hate getting constricted, tense up, and the exercise is ruined. So at first I usually only care that the horse scootches over easy and fluid. Shoulder in on the circle is also very easy to teach, easier for the horse to understand than on a straight line cos you don't have to worry about him confusing the head inside with leaving the wall track.
> 
> ...


I started teaching the cues for the leg yield, and he does okay at it on the ground, does't get it right every time but mostly moves when i press his sides. then i get on him and he ignores it, he doesn't even move over, it's frustrating.

he was taught in s snaffle bit, his previous owners rode him on trail in a snaffle so he should remember direct rein pressure, it might take a crash course but he should remember it.

I'm definitely going to try the double rein thing. Right now i need all the confidence i can get with him.

no he's not shod, hasn't been for four years. he has huge sturdy mustang feet.



cibolo creek outfit said:


> so i can better understand the horse, Is the horse boarded?, How many times a week is it ridden?, How many times a week is it taken different places?, Is the horse allowed out in pastured or is it stalled?, have a buddy or by itself?, is the horse ever out in time out? How old is the horse?


Horse is boarded, ridden maybe two times a week but worked 5 days a week. I have back issues at the minutes so i can't ride as much as i'd like. he's not usually taken different places, i don't have a trailer and we live on a pretty busy road which i don't fancy riding down.

he's out to pasture right now all day, in the summer all night and most of he day. he's in a field with 6 other horses and they all get along, i don't know if he has a particular buddy he's more attached to, probably not, it doesn't seem like he or anyone else gets particularly anxious when he's separated from them. Time out? like put to stand by himself? no, he would probably break the stall down, last week he climbed out of the round pen because hes been left there by the barn manager because he spooked away from her. he's 9 but is still green as he was out of work for over 2 years with hip issues.


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## Belbe (Oct 24, 2010)

phoenix said:


> I started teaching the cues for the leg yield, and he does okay at it on the ground, does't get it right every time but mostly moves when i press his sides. then i get on him and he ignores it, he doesn't even move over, it's frustrating.


Definetely worth the help of someone on the ground and those carrots. Even if the one on the ground has to lean against him and push, he'll understand eventually, and if given a reward he might just find it worth the trouble. If for some reason he then confuses leg yeld with walk on (they sometimes don't differentiate one leg from 2 legs) I found it helps to use a word for leg yeld. I say "schootch" sounds silly to the passer-by, but it works, LOL!



phoenix said:


> no he's not shod, hasn't been for four years. he has huge sturdy mustang feet.


uuu, envy you! Our soil is always too damp for mine to get such hooves, but boots are always there to save the day when needed...




phoenix said:


> he's 9 but is still green as he was out of work for over 2 years with hip issues.


Yep, defnetly my mare. She knows all the high schol moves xcept passage and propper piaffe (she's at the beginnings) but she's still completely green! she was left untouched to the age of 7! and then trained for a year and half by a very competent friend and the horse is like an Einstein learning, but as far as the basics go, like getting seasoned with the world around her, gaining a level mind, coping with strange stuff, she's like a foal! My 3 year old stallion has only been ridden for 5 months and looks 10 years older than her! but then again, he's been trained from the age of 1 week old so if we account for that, he's got 3.5 years of training while she only has 1.5. Plus, it's much easier to shape a young creature's mind than that of an adult... but you get there, just need heaps more patience and time.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

I think everyone has given you great advice. The two horses on my property that ride bitless, are due to necessity rather than anything else - my mare Freyja has an allergic reaction to metals of any kind, and Stiffler has a low soft palate that makes riding in a bit uncomfortable for him. Both horses are, however, of the laid back type of personality where bolting is generally a non-issue, and due to these circumstances the thought of switching to a bit for trail riding off property has never really come into play. But a lot of it is also related to the mentality of the horses. If either horse were of the nervous or spooky type, we'd probably spend a lot of time ponying on trails until they got used to it before riding them.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

We usually ride with a snaffle but have been know to just use a halter lead rope in the mountains. All three horses can be ridden either way, they don't care one way or the other.
I use a snaffle for tuneups and a low port loose cheek shank bit for riding my 8 yr old mare in the arenas and shows.


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

Indyhorse said:


> I think everyone has given you great advice. The two horses on my property that ride bitless, are due to necessity rather than anything else - my mare Freyja has an allergic reaction to metals of any kind, and Stiffler has a low soft palate that makes riding in a bit uncomfortable for him. Both horses are, however, of the laid back type of personality where bolting is generally a non-issue, and due to these circumstances the thought of switching to a bit for trail riding off property has never really come into play. But a lot of it is also related to the mentality of the horses. If either horse were of the nervous or spooky type, we'd probably spend a lot of time ponying on trails until they got used to it before riding them.


I think everyone has given great advice too! i really like the idea of riding with both bridles and using a bit to tune up and then having the option to go back to the bitless once he's had a bit more training. At home he's so laid back but outside he's really not. Maybe once he gets a little more confident he'll be better. I might see if i can get some one to go on trail with me and i could hand-walk him to get him more accustomed. 



wyominggrandma said:


> We usually ride with a snaffle but have been know to just use a halter lead rope in the mountains. All three horses can be ridden either way, they don't care one way or the other.
> I use a snaffle for tuneups and a low port loose cheek shank bit for riding my 8 yr old mare in the arenas and shows.


I have a friend who rides mostly in a halter and she thinks it's great. i think i've done it once with Phoenix and he bolted in the arena and i broke 2 of my fingers when i fell off. Maybe once he's a little more trained i can try again. I've ordered a bridle and am going with a french link dee ring snaffle to tune him up a little.


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## Cowgirl140ty (Jan 7, 2010)

I have a noseband just for this purpose. I dont ride any of my horses with a noseband and tie down. But I have 2 nosebands that I ride my 9 yr old and 3 yr old in out on trails. I have never had a problem.


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## Belbe (Oct 24, 2010)

phoenix said:


> i think i've done it once with Phoenix and he bolted in the arena and i broke 2 of my fingers when i fell off. Maybe once he's a little more trained i can try again. I've ordered a bridle and am going with a french link dee ring snaffle to tune him up a little.


Aye, my mare tried that prank on me too when I switched from halter/curb bit to just halter. Luckily I was using my handmade cotton cord reins and was able to do an emergency one rein stop so hard that she "kissed" my knee. She didn't repeat the prank. I was wearing a safety vest though as I've flown against a wall once doing this. It's usally ok with my mare as her center of balance is very stable and we feel like we'll never fall off, but I like to play safe anyway.

In any case, I've taught all my horses not to disrespect a slow down/halt order by forcing them to circle endlessly till they give in. It's never taken more than a turn with my stallion but took countless with my mare when she's panicked on the trail. Still, I find it much easier to say peaceful words and calm her down when I'm circling then when I'm on a straight line sprint expecting to get thrown into the air with the first thing that spooks her from the side. I remmember once the only way to stop her was to pretend I was gonna fall. She's a very good friend and always slows down if she feels I'm off balance, but the problem is, at that speed, the pretend got real! thank GOD she actually slowed down! was a complete act of faith... 
...that's why I think the time we spend building a solid trust relationship is priceless! Like when a bridle or reins snap on the trail and you forgot to bring extra rope! it's a relief they follow you like puppies and you can control them with a rough halter made of the damaged reins... the advantages are countless really...


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

Belbe said:


> Aye, my mare tried that prank on me too when I switched from halter/curb bit to just halter. Luckily I was using my handmade cotton cord reins and was able to do an emergency one rein stop so hard that she "kissed" my knee. She didn't repeat the prank. I was wearing a safety vest though as I've flown against a wall once doing this. It's usally ok with my mare as her center of balance is very stable and we feel like we'll never fall off, but I like to play safe anyway.
> 
> In any case, I've taught all my horses not to disrespect a slow down/halt order by forcing them to circle endlessly till they give in. It's never taken more than a turn with my stallion but took countless with my mare when she's panicked on the trail. Still, I find it much easier to say peaceful words and calm her down when I'm circling then when I'm on a straight line sprint expecting to get thrown into the air with the first thing that spooks her from the side. I remmember once the only way to stop her was to pretend I was gonna fall. She's a very good friend and always slows down if she feels I'm off balance, but the problem is, at that speed, the pretend got real! thank GOD she actually slowed down! was a complete act of faith...
> ...that's why I think the time we spend building a solid trust relationship is priceless! Like when a bridle or reins snap on the trail and you forgot to bring extra rope! it's a relief they follow you like puppies and you can control them with a rough halter made of the damaged reins... the advantages are countless really...


 
I hadn't had phoenix for very long when this happened, he got spooked by my brother for some reason and took off running, it would have been fine but he cornered really sharply to stop going through a pile of stuff in the arena and i sort of rolled off the side. It was funny though because as soon as i was on teh floor he stopped and came to check me out as if he was saying "we were having fun, why'd you get off?"

I had to do a one rein stop at the weekend hwen i was longlinging, he started to go like he was going to run and i dropped one line and yanked hard on the other to stop him dragging me across the field, he stopped well and calmed right down.

he's great with me when i'm on the ground, all the respect and all that, follws me from the arena back to the barn and if i'm carrying lots i don't usually have to worry about him going anywhere. As soon as i'm on his back it's like all the respect goes away, it's very frustrating.


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## Belbe (Oct 24, 2010)

phoenix said:


> As soon as i'm on his back it's like all the respect goes away, it's very frustrating.


If he's ok with you on the ground than it's not lack of respect under saddle. He's probably just been ruined by the previous rider. I have a stallion like that at the yard. He's the nicest chap in-hand and completely uncontrolable under saddle. He's gotten heaps better with tons of patience over time but still doesn't look like the same horse on and off. Also, if you don't feel at ease when on him, he could be picking that up too. I know it's very hard to pretend you're bob marlin when you know yo may break something real soon but it's worth the effort.

I have a funny example. Just this sunday I took off the camera off saddle-bag to take some photos while riding cos I knew the mare on that trail was still some miles away. Just my luck, the stupid camera had a full card so there I was, reins in one hand and camera on the other erasing old photos one by one. Then I hear my stallion scream and I lift my eyes off the visor, the damned mare was on a field, 5 meters from us all excited about our horses! I though, hell! I've only got one hand and this is my dad's camera! so I took adavantage that for some miracle he was still moving on at a walk despite the screaming and I used my pinkie to shake the outside rein. What do you know, he just kept ahead still at the walk! no crazy troting and filling up all excited! what was different this time? Even though I always try to relax, he probably senses I'm just pretending cos this time, I was COMPLETELY relaxed as I was caught off guard.

It does make a big difference, especially on horses that were ill trained and have a very bad associacion with having someone on their back. My colt doesn't seem to see the difference but all other horses I know, behave differently under saddle to some extent cos unfortunately the very few sensible riders/trainers we have around here, only work their own horses and they're not for sale...

I'd say just be patient. Try to make sure he enjoys every ridden lesson, even if you have to shorten it down to 5 minutes sometimes. Just end it on a good note always and be very patient and calm (or pretend you are) all the time. He'll eventually forget riding is a bad experience. Or in the worst case, he'll think it's not as bad as he thought (horses have a flawless memory, wich becomes annoying at times, lol). For instance, my horses are always willing to do a jambete or the spanish walk, no matter how upset they are. So it's a great trick to ask at the end of a lesson that isn't going so well. Then they always leave the school proud of themselves. You can use any exercise, even if just stomping a foot, so long as the horse likes to do it and you're sure he'll always be able to do it when asked.

Gluck!!


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

Belbe said:


> If he's ok with you on the ground than it's not lack of respect under saddle. He's probably just been ruined by the previous rider. I have a stallion like that at the yard. He's the nicest chap in-hand and completely uncontrolable under saddle. He's gotten heaps better with tons of patience over time but still doesn't look like the same horse on and off. Also, if you don't feel at ease when on him, he could be picking that up too. I know it's very hard to pretend you're bob marlin when you know yo may break something real soon but it's worth the effort.
> 
> I have a funny example. Just this sunday I took off the camera off saddle-bag to take some photos while riding cos I knew the mare on that trail was still some miles away. Just my luck, the stupid camera had a full card so there I was, reins in one hand and camera on the other erasing old photos one by one. Then I hear my stallion scream and I lift my eyes off the visor, the damned mare was on a field, 5 meters from us all excited about our horses! I though, hell! I've only got one hand and this is my dad's camera! so I took adavantage that for some miracle he was still moving on at a walk despite the screaming and I used my pinkie to shake the outside rein. What do you know, he just kept ahead still at the walk! no crazy troting and filling up all excited! what was different this time? Even though I always try to relax, he probably senses I'm just pretending cos this time, I was COMPLETELY relaxed as I was caught off guard.
> 
> ...


i never thought he might associate riding with a bad experience in the past; i know that his previous owners sent him to a "trainer" to break him of his bucking habit. Instead of looking for a route of the bucking (which turns out to be his gimpy hip) they sent him away to have someone stop him doing it. God knows what this person did to him but he was away for months. Plus his previous owner used to ride him and use spurs every time she rode. Maybe he's remembering that. 

I try to be relaxed and most of the time i am. when i first brought him back into work i wasn't sure what he'd do. A lot of people i spoke to before i first got on him again said i should be really careful in case he hurt me, he didn't but it got me nervous you know. i used to sing all off key and bad when i rode in the arena, he probably hated every second of it but he hasn't thrown me off yet. I wasn't relaxed on trail, i think i would have been more relaxed if he hadn't bucked at the start, i just kept thinking of that buck. 

I'll try and find something he really likes to do and get him doing that more, i don't know what yet but i'll find something. i do try to end on a good note when riding, and i've ended lessons after just 10 minutes before. we've barely gotten warmed up and he's done exactly as i've asked so i got off and let him graze as a reward. This was when he was learning to differentiate two legs closing to go up a gait and one leg closing to speed up in a gait. He caught on really quickly.

Thanks.


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