# Martengale/Training Fork?



## Lakotababii (Nov 28, 2010)

QHriderKE said:


> I've heard of them, and have one sitting in the barn that's hardly been used... but I'm wondering if it would be helpful for my one mare, Lizzy.
> 
> She's 5 years old... I think. We got her for free from a guy who didnt want her... she was wild, never been handled before she came to us.
> 
> ...


Sounds to me like she is trying to run out of the bit. In other words she doesn't wanna listen at a lope.

I have used training forks in the past, they work very well. I am glad to note in your post you said you wouldn't use one all the time. That is KEY. You need to train her to keep her head down and the training fork can be a great tool to help you do that. 

The other thing you can try is teaching her the one rein stop (if she doesn't already know it). I have found that working off of that, you can get the horse to slow down slightly by pulling on one rein, which also drops their nose. You can then slow her lope. After you get the slow down and nose drop, you continue to work on getting it further and further down. Then she will understand she can't run like a bat outta hell with her nose in the air, because if she does, it just means circles and work.

It really sounds like she just needs time put under her belt, and a lot of transition work.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Has she been like this from day 1 or did it develop over time? When is the last time you had her teeth checked? How sure are you that the saddle fits well? What kind of bit were you using on her when the problems started?

It sounds to me like fairly typical green horse stuff. Not that she's not broke, she has just never been taught how to lope properly or work circles properly. I think if she was mine, after I ruled out pain issues, I would "lope her 'til her head drops". 

Start in a large circle in a flat pasture or an arena and work on circles. If she swaps leads, keep riding, if she speeds up, don't try to control her speed with 2 hands, only use one rein to shrink the circle and slow her down and keep riding, if she drops her shoulder into a tiny circle, then pick up the outside rein and change the direction of the circle and get her back into a lope. Keep her in a lope until she starts to actually flatten out a bit (it can take anywhere from 10 minutes to a couple of hours), but she will flatten out and slow down eventually. If you feel her relax, drop her head, and flatten her stride for even 1 or 2 strides, then stop, walk her out on a loose rein, and put her up. 

While you are walking her out afterward, work on her suppleness and giving to the bit, both laterally and vertically. Work on getting her to bend around your leg and move off leg and rein (you also need to do all this while you are warming her up). It certainly won't be an overnight fix and you will certainly need to be careful about how you ride her everywhere else so as not to contradict your circle work, but I've yet to have a horse that this didn't work on. It's the same method that worked for my Dad for 40+ years as well.

I am not a huge fan of martingales/forks because so many people don't know how to use them properly and those that _do_ know don't need them because they can get the same results without them.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

An attractive witch she is. I would try the martingale, just to see if it helps, it's a good training tool if used correctly. If you can get her to pick up her shoulder with it, that's great. Once she's doing it consistently with the martingale, ride her without it. It's a training tool, not a crutch. If they are popping over to the other lead on a circle, check your body position, 9 times outta 10, it's rider position.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

She is in a shanked bit that breaks and swivels in 3 places for roping. She started out working well, and then I guess she thought she knew where she was going and how she was doing it. 

She breaks at the poll amazingly backing up, and I've found that she gives to a snaffle very well, very little pressure and at a walk, I can get decent bends out of her. 

One day, I took her out all afternoon fixing fence at a pasturte a couple miles away from home, and I loped her all the way back and about 2/3 of the way home, she quit fighting me and loped on loose rein with her head fairly level.

I've been pretty much trying what you've said in the second paragraph, smrobs. and once she gets into the lead I want her in, she dives in to a teeny circle and takes off. at that point I normally sit her bum in the ground and we back up for 10 feet and go again.

Here's a video of her last year, just me riding bareback with a halter, I'm just posting it to show you how her head is when she backs, I just cant carry it forward.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

It takes a lot of time to go from giraffe like she is now to flat and relaxed. The stopping and backing up isn't correcting her tendency to drop her shoulder and cut the corners. Have you tried picking up the inside rein just a bit? What I mean is picking up the rein and moving it to the outside of the circle, essentially picking up her shoulder and moving them to the outside of the circle without tilting her nose out.
Gah, I'm horrible at explaining stuff LOL. 

What's happening when she drops her shoulder is that she's anticipating and deciding on what _she_ wants to do instead of waiting for you to tell her what _you_ want her to do. Whenever she starts doing that, even at a walk, change directions on her, spin her 180* in the opposite direction that she started to go and go the other way (if she drops her right shoulder and cuts right, pick up the left rein and turn her left). Then if she drops and cuts again, do the same thing. You may spend quite a bit of time looking like the pendulum of a grandfather clock but she'll start listening to what you're saying instead of what she wants you to say or thinks you might say.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I do use that inside rein to push her out, when using my leg fails. But she's just so ignorant to the bit sometimes, it makes me feel like my hands are reeeealy hard, which I don't have hard hands to start with, I'm actually kind of a pansy with my hands, but she makes me be a little tougher, which makes me angry.

I'll definetly try and get a new video working her through all gaits, and attempting a circle.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

i think smrobs is describing using a leg yield to make the circle bigger. which will work if the horse wants to dive into the circle like you described.

you could get a cone or something and circle around it. just do whatever will work to keep the line between the cone and your inside stirrup perpendicular to the horses spine and eventually she'll get nice and round in her turns. if you feel the horse about to drop into the circle immediately make the circle bigger with your inside leg, or turn tail-to the cone and continue on the opposite circle.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I think you are a good enough rider to teach her more advance riding skills. This will not only help her, it will take you up to the next level of riding and training.

The thing that I see missing in your riding / training is that you ride mostly with your hands and not enough with your legs. Adding another gadget to the bridle is not going to fix the problem, but I think you can develop the skill to do it right. 

This mare needs to be 'collected'. You get that done by pushing her up into the bit with your legs. You push and bump her forward but your hands do not give until she drops her nose. You can push a horse up into the bridle at all gaits and can teach a horse to give at the poll and can literally get a horse to drop its head to its knees if that is where you give it relief. 

In the beginning, the horse will fight your hands. You just need to keep pushing an bumping the horse forward without giving her any relief from the bit until she drops its nose and gives at the poll and in her jaw. The instant she drops her head, you give her the reward of a loose rein. 

You start out at the walk and walk forward and stop without giving her any slack. You make her give herself slack by 'setting' your hands solidly and set her up so she can only get relief (release) when she stops and keeps her chin tucked softly.

When she does this consistently at the walk, progress to the jog. Again, only give her a slack rein when she give one to herself.

The lope will be the most difficult and requires the most skill from the rider. Again, you push the horse into the bit until she gives herself slack by breaking at the poll. Once she learns to lope into the bit with her chin tucked, you can teach correct circles, you can keep her shoulders up, you can get a balanced stop. All of these things come with true collection. Her lope will smooth out, she will work better off of her hind end, she will stop better and both of you will be a lot happier.

Once you have her dropping her head and collecting herself, you can work on leg yielding exercises and can teach her that you can control her shoulders, body and hips. Only then, will you be able to keep her between your reins and between your legs and get pretty, slow and smooth circles, stops and other maneuvers.

The most difficult thing for you to learn to do to make this work is that you cannot 'pull' the horse's head into position. You have to 'set' your hands and your legs 'push' her into position. When you 'set' your hands, she can get release by dropping her head and tucking her chin. When you pull, you just get into a tog-o-war that she will win and she will fight your hands. She has to find that 'sweet spot' where she gives herself a loose rein. Let us know if you try this and how it works. It is a much more advanced training technique and I will try to coach you through the problems that you may encounter trying to apply it.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I understand what you're saying about collecting her up and using my legs as I had a QH/welsh cross gelding that I taught that to in all gaits, but he was more willing and respected the bit and was paying attention to my body. The moment I would just apply pressure with just my calf and draw up some pressure on the bit, he'd drop his head and pull himself together and slow right down.

I'm currently working on similar stuff with my 3 year old, but she also respects the bit and my body cues much more. I can nearly get her to collect at a walk now, after a few weeks of just bending and such.

I know this will take a lot of work. Do you think using the martingale while training the collection stuff would be helpful at all?


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Here's a little picture of how my little pony guy was:


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

Cherie said:


> I think you are a good enough rider to teach her more advance riding skills. This will not only help her, it will take you up to the next level of riding and training.
> 
> The thing that I see missing in your riding / training is that you ride mostly with your hands and not enough with your legs. Adding another gadget to the bridle is not going to fix the problem, but I think you can develop the skill to do it right.
> 
> ...



I think that's the best advice I've read on ANY post on here !! Read it, put it in your "favorites", copy and paste it, print it, save it, or whatever you need to do. Then when you perfect it you should thank Cherie for explaining a technique that will make you horses worth thousands of dollars more over the years!!! Not to mention make riding more satisfying and enjoyable.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Well, I took Lizz out for a big ride today all over the country, and about half way through, I had her dropping her nose to her chest at a walk with only a little bit of resistance. She also dropped it at a trot, but there was a little bit more resistance there and I loped her until I got her nose down, and that was it. Shes proving to be a fast learner!
I even got her to keep herself collected stopping as well


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I now have a video to share:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Qh,

What a cute, cute mare! She is adorable. So, you are working on having her put her head down? I can see that she is becoming responsive to what you are doing with the reins and that she rides on a pretty light contact. I couldn't tell from the video if that is a snaffle or curb bit.

What I think when I watch this is I hope you will not over do this and have a horse that starts to go around behind the bit, head down behind the vertical . From what I saw at the trot, she had some spots where her head wasnt down and it wasn't stargazing either. That would be the place I would let her move forward at. She has a nice forward trot, and if you spend too much energy fussing with her head, she will lose that good forward and become bottled up resentment behind the bit. I think you ride very nicely, lightly and your hand is not harsh. But I guess what I mean is a person can become too fussy and focussed on having the head down and lose sight of the rest . I really like this mare's way of going. She is forward and balanced and cadenced.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Thank you  She's not too bad for a freebie, eh? I'm riding her in a plain snaffle, as I like the contact it gives me. At the trot, I'm just working on getting her head down with as slight of a command as at the walk, other than that, I will let her have some freedom without me asking...aaand asking...

She has a lot of "forward", believe me.


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## Monty77 (Aug 8, 2011)

A martingale will help loads if yuo want to use it for collection. Its the same with my Arab. Once you are able to get flexion through her neck you can work on lifting her back and getting her collected.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Regarding the martingale. I think QH is doing a pretty darn good job and is developing hands that can keep a dialogue going with the horse. A martingale is "dead". It cannot speak to the horse the same way human hands can. I feel she does not need it as she demonstrates capability to connect with this horse via her own hands.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I saw the pony you were riding. I saw her bringing her head down, but you did not use enough leg on the pony to get its hind end anywhere close to up underneath it. I saw a pony with its head folded up and no true collection. On the other hand, you are riding bareback so it is about impossible to push a horse up into the bridle without the exact skilled use of legs and feet that are steady and supported with stirrups. A horse can tuck its chin and still have it butt out in left field and dragging along like a little red wagon.

What I see in the new video is a horse that is hunting for the release. She is going through what they all go through when they no longer can raise their heads up to get away from the rider and the reins.

YOU have to develop better feel and timing to release more quickly when she drops her head. Then, you have to be good enough and quick enough to bump her when she drops it too low looking for that relief. 

Right now, as you are learning how to do this, I would recommend a sweet spot that is about 8 to 12 inches from the upper most place you will let her keep it to the lowest place you will let her keep it without harassing her. You have to be 100% consistent and give her relief in that spot 100% of the time. It means that you have to have steady enough hands to never bump her inadvertently when her head is in the right place and never let her get away with her head in the wrong spot.

You have to keep more leg on her and you have to let her have relief ONLY when she has her head in that 'sweet spot' where you want her to learn to keep it. The leg is so important if you want her working off of her hind end and not traveling along with her butt dragging. 

There are several parts to having true collection. Having a vertical face is only one of those parts and is not the most important one. 

You need her shoulders elevated.

You need her back elevated and rounded. [This develops the illusive 'top-line' that we keep hearing people ask about.]

You need her to lift her belly. This gets it out of the way so her hind legs have a place to go and the strength to get them there. 

All of these are components of 'collection' -- not just the 'head-set'.

Now, I will address the martingale. It is only useful as a tool (but more often a crutch) for those that do not know how to do it the right way with the use of their legs and hands.

A martingale and draw reins (actually much more effective than a martingale) force a horse to have the vertical head position and actually encourage the lack of engagement of the hind quarters. So, using one almost ensures that you will have the 'little red wagon' butt dragging along behind. Few people ever develop the proper use of their legs so that means that few people ever get true collection with the use of a martingale or draw reins. 

You need the hocks to be engaged and her hind end to move forward up underneath her. When you get this mastered, you will get sliding stops, be a big part of the way to having collected flying lead changes on a straight line and getting fancy turn-arounds. 

This is not basic riding -- This is advanced riding. It will not happen overnight. If it was easy, everyone would be able to do it. Not one trainer in 20 or 50 can get true collection. This includes hunter / jumper riders and about all western trainers except the higher level reining trainers. Many lower level dressage riders are also clueless as well as to how to get true collection that gets a horse to elevate its back and belly.

I think you have a real good foundation to a balanced seat, ride 'centered' and have good hand control. If I did not think you were a good rider, I would not bother trying to explain all of the difficult details that make collection happen. It would be too far over your head to make any sense to you or the horse.

You will know you are starting to get it right when your horse's head stops going up and down looking for relief. Keep taking videos for us to look at.

Cheri


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Well, sorry for this awful video, the post I used was awfully crooked! But you can at least see something. I've been just letting her have her head relaxed at a walk, and just checking her up (I guess that's what I'll call it...) at random. I've been trying to hold her "collected" at a trot for a few strides before releasing, and just at square one at a lope, just asking for a head drop and a little slow down, then releasing.

I think she's soft enough to my hands now that I won't be needing the martengale, but I think I'll use it on her when roping, just to remind her that even if we are doing something where I can't pay attention to just her, she still has to keep her head down!

Her fourth day on this stuff


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Some excellent advice has been covered here. Two things that I have great issue with however.

The first is the need for stirrups for collection. The legs ideally are not needed as an aid if you ride with pure weight cues. The legs are only needed as a support, or where the weight aids are not given correctly due to saddle or seat.

Secondly headset has nothing to do with collection. Too much focus is on the head position. It's like a loaf of White bread as someone put it. It looks like bread, but its not bread just hot air no substance. Too many people try to create from the head back. 

When a horse is collected the head will position itself naturally. This is why truly skilled riders will obtain collection without the bit. The bit is for the finished product, not a crutch as it is so normally used.

It also looks to me that the shoulder dropping is a physical issue, possibly exacerbated on the diagonal by the opposite hock.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Cherie said:


> I saw the pony you were riding. I saw her bringing her head down, but you did not use enough leg on the pony to get its hind end anywhere close to up underneath it. I saw a pony with its head folded up and no true collection. On the other hand, you are riding bareback so it is about impossible to push a horse up into the bridle without the exact skilled use of legs and feet that are steady and supported with stirrups. A horse can tuck its chin and still have it butt out in left field and dragging along like a little red wagon.
> 
> What I see in the new video is a horse that is hunting for the release. She is going through what they all go through when they no longer can raise their heads up to get away from the rider and the reins.
> 
> ...


I don't normally quote such long posts but this one needs to viewed again. I found this post and the one by Cherie above it to be two of the VERY best explanations of the basics of collection that I have seen. It's one thing to say "ride from back to front" but that is a very facile explanation and will not help riders who are just starting to want to learn how to get a better ride out of their horse. We need to mechanics and how to start DOING it and Cherie has posted a clearly comprehensible explanation. love this! I would like to copy and save these two posts so that I can refer back to them when this question is asked agian, and it will. Cherie, may I?


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> I don't normally quote such long posts but this one needs to viewed again. I found this post and the one by Cherie above it to be two of the VERY best explanations of the basics of collection that I have seen. It's one thing to say "ride from back to front" but that is a very facile explanation and will not help riders who are just starting to want to learn how to get a better ride out of their horse. We need to mechanics and how to start DOING it and Cherie has posted a clearly comprehensible explanation. love this! I would like to copy and save these two posts so that I can refer back to them when this question is asked agian, and it will. Cherie, may I?


The quoted post is a good general post to get someone started but I would highly suggest the use of an EXPERIENCED trainer to fill in the gaps and areas not fully explained.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Thank you Tinyliny. Yes, you may quote me post.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Spyder said:


> The quoted post is a good general post to get someone started but I would highly suggest the use of an EXPERIENCED trainer to fill in the gaps and areas not fully explained.


 
Absolutely! No one can really teach themselves to be a good rider. well, maybe superman can. But I just love the way Cherie puts things into words that average horse people can grasp. If they understand this, try it and get the lightbulb turned on, they will want to know more and will want to do it really well and will need an experienced person watching and helping.


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