# Trainer Behaviour Expectations?



## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

I agree with all your list except for "-trainer refusing to train a horse they don't like." If you don't like my horse fine. But man if I found out after the fact about any of the things you listed I would pull my horse so fast. And like you I do all my own training. But I would never do those thing with a horse that was mine or one I was training for someone else.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I agree with both of you. Those are completely unacceptable.

Although, the "bucking with a trainer but never bucked before" thing is a fine line and it depends on _why _the horse bucked. Perhaps the trainer is pushing the horse harder than previous riders by trying to get them responsive or trying to fix a minor behavioral problem and the horse gets ****ed and decides to throw a hissy fit and buck. I have had that happen to me. Owner sent me a horse that had been ridden but "just needs some handle and miles put on him". I get the horse and he's spoiled and been allowed to basically get away with murder under saddle. The first few times I told him "NO" and enforced it, he tried to buck.

Also, the "won't take a horse they don't like" thing. For me, it's not that I won't take a horse I don't _like_, but if the horse has issues that I don't want to deal with, I will refuse the horse. I will not ride a rearer...ever. And now, since training is my hobby rather than my occupation, I will refuse basically any horse that isn't good natured and easy to handle. I can't afford to get hurt trying to fix someone else's monster.


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## TessaMay (Jul 26, 2013)

Personally, I don't think I'd ever send a horse away to get trained, there are just too many things that could happen without you realizing it until it had been going on for some time. I would much rather take the extra time and money to haul my horse in and out of a trainers or pay them to come to me and be there during each session at the least. I would prefer to be part of the training, merely overseen and directed by a trainer. 

SO I guess that's my way of saying that I agree, those things are way out of line. 

Though, I don't think I'd want my horse going to a trainer who disliked him/her for some reason.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Sounds pretty normal. I don't think it's acceptable but the few trainers I've worked with have done all that.

One of my former dressage trainers actually hated my horse so much she refused to lesson with me with him so I got to ride a bunch of others. I even got to take lessons on a 4th level Dressage horse. She hated my horse because he's an Arabian. She feels only certain breeds belong in Dressage. She actually was adamant that he was lame in the hind and unsuitable for Dressage. I called the vet for a lameness exam and she felt so bad for me she only charged me the farm call fee. She said my horse was just fine. Ex-trainer was adamant the vet didn't know what she was talking about so I got a different vet - the trainer's friend. She just shrugged and said "well just don't do dressage" - I think she didn't want to make the trainer look bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> "bucking with a trainer but never bucked before"


 we're talking to separate horses that had been ridden by two experienced riders with no problem, and neither were passive "passengers". The first bucked on the trainer and bucked off two students within two weeks, the second bucked throughout the training process, even bucking the trainer off at the end when a buyer was looking at it. Never a buck after. I suspect the lack of brushing, and maybe they trainer was just obnoxious?


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## Hackamore (Mar 28, 2014)

None of the above actions are acceptable IMO. If ayou re paying for training and receive this type of service you should move on to someone else. 

Part of my own success when I first started out came from re-training horses that others had attempted to start & my business grew primarily from my reputation of fixing these horses. I could never understand why a trainer would not do everything they could to make a nice horse their client when their name is associated with the animal they are training. I for one have always took pride in my craft and wanted to please my clients and create nice riding horses. If your trainer does not then find someone else. There are many good trainers out there that do take pride in their work and do a good job with horses. 

You get what you put up with!


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

and I don't understand the "not liking the horse" thing either. We're not talking dangerous vices, they just didn't like the horse, accomplished nothing in two weeks and sent it home. I have never been asked to work with a horse that I couldn't train. Some I loved, others we tolerated each other, but all could be trained, and I'm no professional.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I agree with Smrobs with the bucking thing. Lots of times a horse will buck before the trainer is asking it to do something the owner never did. Or the trainer is doing the "ask, tell, demand" process, some horses fight the demand stage. 

Also, if a trainer is successful enough to turn away horses good on them. Its difficult to train on a horse that you don't like. Simply because you don't work well with that horse. Often there are horse/rider combinations that simply don't work. In that case the process will be more difficult and more counter-productive. Really, if a trainer is turning away a horse because they don't like it, they are doing the owner a favor.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I would allow a trainer the right to refuse to take a horse because I've refused to take certain horses that I felt were too high risk or were unsound but otherwise I'm on board with the rest of what you say BlueSpark, sadly the situations you mention are becoming more the norm than the exception.
Its why I've often asked where all these amazing magical trainers that can sort out all the problems are hiding when people ask for advice and are told 'Get a trainer' because the ones that could actually help seem to be few and far between


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

True, jaydee! 

I am not surprised by any of these. I sent my semi-broke stallion to a trainer for finishing. I rode him FOR the guy when I dropped him off. I intended to leave him 60-90 days. Two weeks later, I called to see how he was doing. Took a week to get the guy on the phone. Then, he said he did not think the horse was going to do what I wanted him to, he was balky, etc. Isaid I would pick him up...No, no...you paid for 30 days, and you'll get it.... I told him I had a Pinto show, and I would bring him back, but I didn't. Why would he continue to ride the horse if he didn't like him? 

That was 7 years ago, and I have NEVER had a balky, or even a single bad ride on the horse!


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> Its why I've often asked where all these amazing magical trainers that can sort out all the problems are hiding when people ask for advice and are told 'Get a trainer' because the ones that could actually help seem to be few and far between


 amen to this. I know ONE trainer I would send my horses to, and he's expensive, far away, and 70 years old. I love the idea of sending Dublin away for 60 days with a dressage trainer as a 5 year old, but I don't know any I trust enough to do it.

I'm just going to learn to do it myself. I figure I have a better chance of turning out a happy well trained horse than taking a gamble on the trainer world.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

A couple of years ago I rode a horse at a barn here where I went one winter to keep in shape while my own horses took a few months off (I don't have an indoor and riding in the snow has no appeal to me!!) She was on full board for training for selling her, the owner agreed to me riding her for my lessons in the hope I might buy her. She was kept stabled 24/7 and as the weeks went by I noticed her getting more and more hyper & spooky to ride, needing to be lunged before I could do anything with her. Then one of the grooms let slip that the only time she went out of her stall was the twice a week when I went to ride her. I stopped going.


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## Elsa (Jun 20, 2014)

I definitely withhold my right to turn away a horse or client. Though I only exercise that right when a horse requires training I can not provide, is unsound for the required training or if the client themselves seem off in any way. We had one crazy creeper client that taught me early on that if a person doesn't feel right I should run away not enter a business deal with them. 

Bucking, IMO this depends on the situation. As an evasion tactic it obviously should not be allowed at all ever. That said owners sometimes don't give us the required time or listen to reason. Also evasion isn't the ONLY reason they buck. In my experience many horses experience a drastic changes in saddle fit, diet, riding/handling experience, living arrangement, and exercise level when they leave the trainers. All these things can add up to a fresh, annoyed, and/or sore horse that is more likely to buck. With a skilled confident rider these will be non-issues usually and caught quickly, with a less skilled timid rider that doesn't know what is what it will probably snowball into bigger issues. Not all of the causes of post-trainer bucking are the trainers fault.

The rest of the list I agree is unacceptable.


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## WildAtHeart (Jul 17, 2013)

I know very little about trainers but that sounds absolutely unacceptable to me


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

jaydee said:


> Its why I've often asked where all these amazing magical trainers that can sort out all the problems are hiding when people ask for advice and are told 'Get a trainer' because the ones that could actually help seem to be few and far between


Because most of us are better with horses than with business.


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## Gossip (Sep 26, 2011)

I agree, I wouldn't want anyone else riding MY horse when I sent him for training, not a kids play thing. But the horse bucking is totally normal, as long as it doesn't become and ongoing problem. Trainers work horses harder and teach them new things so horses may become angry or frustrated in the process. Most of the time trainers ask more from a horse than just the ordinary rider.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

You are obviously talking about a trainer in your area not all are tarred with the same brush.

As for students riding a horse in for training, it depends on 'student' 

If this is a person paying to go for a rode then I agree it is not good. If it is a person who is working for me and there to learn, then I will let them ride horses in for training. How else are they going to learn? 

I will also allow them to actually do all the ground work, under supervision. How else are they going to learn? 

As for horses not being groomed to the pint of having matted coats that would never happen under my eagle eye. For a starter, if I am working a horse and it has a thick coat, it will have the hair on its belly and lower neck clipped to help with it not sweating to much.

If every horse bucks with that trainer then they are doing something wrong.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> If every horse bucks with that trainer then they are doing something wrong.


 that's kind of what I figured. I understand bucking as a disrespectful behaviour, when a horse is being pushed harder than its used to, but two horses bucking severely that never bucked before, one bucking so bad at the end of 6 weeks training that the trainer was thrown? To me that says something is amiss.

I train for myself and my BO, and I rarely have a horse that bucks. Pickles tried one bounce. Out of the 10+ ottb's we've restarted, w/t/c, softening up their mouths, extensive trail riding, trot poles, etc, I think one tried bucking? I'm not talking a crow hop or kicking up their heels once or twice, I'm talking head down, trying to get the rider off.



> If this is a person paying to go for a rode then I agree it is not good. If it is a person who is working for me and there to learn, then I will let them ride horses in for training. How else are they going to learn?


 I'm talking paying students and guests out for a trail ride.



> Not all of the causes of post-trainer bucking are the trainers fault.


 ah, but what if its reversed? the horse bucks with the trainer, but no one else?


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## ManeEquinessence (Feb 11, 2014)

BlueSpark said:


> I don't send my horses out for training at this point, I just do it all myself, but people I know do, and the behaviour of some trainers is making me second guess my opinion of what a trainer should be like. For example:
> 
> -letting students ride horses they have there for training in lessons and out on hacks, even getting students bucked off, with out the horse owners knowledge and permission.
> 
> ...


I never had and probably never will send a horse out to be trained. Only twice have we hired a trainer to break a horse under saddle. I have the trainer come to my place. I watch the entire time, mostly to learn and not undo what the trainer has done. There's always something for me to learn.

If I were to send a horse out for training, I'd have a written agreement and most certainly enclose a clause stating no other riders are to ride my horse.

I had a "trainer" run out of my barn saying my Morgan was crazy and could not be trained. Next trainer I got did a beautiful job. He never raises his voice and is very quiet. Wouldn't think having that disposition would work with a spoiled diva, but it did!

I respect a trainer's decision to not train my horse. I want what's best for my horse and I want all parties to be safe. I also don't want the horse to become sour and equate riding with something negative.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

This is no different than any other industry. For every good trainer, there's a not so good one.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I would go further than that - for every good trainer there are three mediocre ones and four bad ones!


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

BlueSpark said:


> I don't send my horses out for training at this point, I just do it all myself, but people I know do, and the behaviour of some trainers is making me second guess my opinion of what a trainer should be like. For example:
> 
> -letting students ride horses they have there for training in lessons and out on hacks, even getting students bucked off, with out the horse owners knowledge and permission.
> 
> ...


 **************


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

When I dabbled in training I refused to take in certain horses, but it was because of their OWNERS. Some people just have unrealistic expectations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

^^^yes! That too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^Yup. After 30 days training, so many people expect a horse that they can take home, turn out for 6 months, then bring in and throw their kids/grandkids on.

My last customer was sort of like that. He had already turned the horse into a bucker (strap the saddle on and then turn him loose in the round pen to "buck it out", then take the saddle off and call it a day :evil: ). After 45 days, I had the horse where I could saddle him up fresh out of the pen, lead him out of the barn, step right on and lope off, lope circles, neck rein, sidepass, the whole 9 and he hadn't even offered to buck in almost 30 rides.

I sent the horse home with explicit instructions that someone _needed _to ride him every day for at least a couple of hours. It didn't matter if that meant 2 hours of walking circles, so long as someone was on him.

Sure enough, get a call about 4 months later, guy's ****ed. He griped about "You said he was broke and that he was safe to ride!". I calmly replied that he was as safe as a bucker with 45 days could be when he left here. I reminded him that he had come and watched me ride/work the horse repeatedly and he didn't try to buck with me after the first initial problems. After I get the whole story, guy took horse home and turned it out for 3 months, feeding it a working horse's ration of sweet feed daily, then just caught it up and was going to let some random cowboy use him in the sale barn. What a surprise that the horse reverted to a bronc the instant the saddle was cinched up :?.

Fella said "What would you charge me to come over and put a few more rides on him at my place?". While shaking my head, I simply told him "I'm sorry, I can't help you. I told you the horse needed ridden every day. If you can't follow the instructions that I give to keep that horse from killing someone, then it would be a waste of money for me to ride him any more. Good luck."

I'm sure he probably bad mouthed me to anyone who would listen, but I really don't give a dang. I tried to tell him. He didn't want to listen, that's on him. *shrugs*


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

So frustrating, then to top it all off you know that the bucking would of never been an issue in the first place if started correctly.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I've learned over the years about "just not liking" a horse. It's only happened twice, and both times I gave the horse to someone else to train and was glad I did. I ended up putting one of them down, she was so intractable and she injured herself severely because of it, and I sold the other. And I don't miss either one of them. After those 2, if I get a "don't like" feeling about a horse, they're out of here. Life's too short.

The other stuff it totally unacceptable and unethical, IMO.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

COWCHICK77 said:


> So frustrating, then to top it all off you know that the bucking would of never been an issue in the first place if started correctly.


That's exactly right. I've ridden many horses from that line (Leo Goldseeker) and never had one that _wanted _to be an outlaw. You basically had to force them into it so it told me a whole lot about how he was handled.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

I've only worked with one horse that I truly disliked. It was this spoiled, crabby mare. My normally docile QH gelding turned into a demon when she was there. She tried to jump out of a 6' round pen. She repeatedly charged me. When I found out the owners expected me to turn her into a kids barrel horse in 30 days, I told them to come get her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## taharah (Oct 21, 2013)

the sad thing is that everyone can call themselves a horse trainer, even if they never touched a horse before

im sick of seeing this.

at my barn the head instructor is no more than a cocky girl with almost no experience with horses. she has to have over 100 students and im so flipping tired of seeing the horses abused in her lessons. she doesnt have a clue what she is doing. i should be instructing her! shes a joke. her friend was my instructor when i started riding. I took lessons for TWO YEARS before they taught me how to canter.

this is getting ridiculous in the horse world. we need a governing body that is wide spread that everyone has to pass BASIC certification to be called a "trainer" or an "instructor."


(on another note, i find it interesting that someone here said theyd never take a rearer. my horse was the biggest rearer. ive trained her myself, and rearing was the easiest thing to fix! )


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

nikelodeon79 said:


> When I dabbled in training I refused to take in certain horses, but it was because of their OWNERS. Some people just have unrealistic expectations.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
And I've refused to take on horses that have been so horribly abused by previous trainers that I feel there is no hope for them. 

The more likely reason a trainer refuses to take on a horse they "don't like" is that it's really the _owner_ they can't stand!

Everything else on your list is unacceptable but sadly there is a lot worse going on out there. Out of 6 "trainers" in my county I only know 2 who do not routinely abuse and drug their client's horses. I honestly wouldn't know where to send a person if they asked me to refer them to a trainer!

So.. at least in my recent experience, when we advise people with horse troubles here on this forum to get a trainer, they have just as good a chance of finding a rotten one as finding a good one! Guess a good warning would be that if instinct tells you something isn't right, walk away!


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I understand not liking an owner, not wanting to take on an abuse case or a serious problem horse. 

I DONT understand, as a professional, having only a set type you work with. I'm no professional, but out of all the dozens I've worked with, there is only one horse that my personality just clashed with that I would have refused. I cant imagine advertising yourself as a trainer and then picking and choosing those with the best disposition that you personally like and sending the rest home.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

If a trainer specializes in a set discipline, I can understand it. Like a WP trainer wouldn't want to take in a cutting horse or a barrel trainer wouldn't want to take in a jumper. That, to me, just means that the trainer wouldn't want to waste the horse's potential by them not knowing how to properly train for the discipline desired.

But, for an average "just get them broke" trainer, that seems a bit of overkill to just reject anything and everything that doesn't suit your preferences. I guess if a trainer has a waiting list a mile long, they can afford to be picky, but that's leaving a lot of horses/owners hanging out to dry.


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