# Rearing and flipping



## Filly515 (Jul 8, 2016)

A friend of mine owns an eventing barn and they regularly get OTTB's to retrain, some they keep, others they end up selling after retraining. A few months ago she got in a beautiful 4yo dapple gray mare from a tb trainer that she has gotten several horses from in the past. I fell in love with this horse the second I saw her. She is sweet, in your pocket type of horse, loves to be loved on. Her full brother has apparently done quite well on the track but she had a problem flipping in the gate so my friend got her dirt cheap. She is a little claustrophobic in tight areas. She has done a lot of ground work with her, she lunges walk, trot and canter and she has been on her a few times now. The problem, the moment you put pressure on her mouth and try to push her forward, she rears and flips. She's not doing it to be naughty, that is not her personality. I have worked with problem horses, but never flipping over. She's long lined her too, it is only when you apply pressure on her mouth. I'm looking for suggestions on stopping this. I know to prevent her from rearing to grab one rein before she goes up. And the only thing I've found otherwise is going back to ground work and starting over, the article I read said it could be due to fear, lack of trust and respect. Anyone have experience with this issue? I will add that she has been checked but a vet for any physical issues including teeth, everything is fine in that department.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

You are getting into an incredibly dangerous situation.

Any horse who is a routine flipper would be dog food in my barn.

Once on particularly reactive horses, in bad situations, is fine - But repeatedly, frequently....Nope, I wouldn't touch that horse with a ten foot pole.


However, if you really want to pursue it....I'll tell you this. She can't rear if she can't plant her back feet. Disengaging her hindquarters will take away her ability to go up. I have fixed flippers before. As soon as they start to stall up, I immediately take their nose to one side and kick their hip around, then ask them to go forward again. 


Have you tried ground driving her? What does she do with the pressure applied to her reins from the ground?


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

A flipper is not something you can be taught to deal with online. It is so dangerous. To flip over, a horse has to abandon its own sense of self preservation, so how do you think they are going to think of you in that moment? 

If you really want to continue with this horse, get it to a trainer who is reputable in retaining this (preperably one who also works with ottbs often) and have them do at least 60 days. 

Do not try to train this yourself.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

There is a reason that horse was dirt cheap - because she is _dangerous_.

There could be any number of reasons the filly is doing it, but is it worth the risk of someone being hurt to find out? 

I agree with @*SorrelHorse* that if that was my horse, she would be euthanized. There are plenty of OTTBs who don't have potentially lethal habits that need homes.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

From my understanding, this is not OP's horse, but her trainer friend's horse. Others have already commented how dangerous a horse like this is, so I won't say any more on that. @sorrelhorse already explained well how to stop a rear before it happens, so I won't comment on that either.

The thought I wanted to post is that, even though there may be nothing wrong with their mouth or teeth, some horses just plain don't like bits. Sometimes they can be retrained bitless and then go back to a bit (I did this with my mother's horse), but I have met some horses that just do not go well in a bit. 

If I were you, I would stay off this horse's back and work on ground driving. Teach her to accept mild pressure, and I would probably use either a halter or a bitless device. I usually start with a halter and go from there. 

Here is a few videos on ground driving. *NOTE: I did not watch these from start to finish, so not saying I agree with everything they are doing. I am just trying to give some examples. Use your own discretion when taking advice from anyone.*

(I did watch the first few minutes of this video. I like where this guy stands in relation to ground driving a horse that would balk, rear, flip, etc. He keeps well out of the way. I also like how he lets the surcingle keep a light pressure, while he keeps the reins in his hands slack. I've experienced myself ground driving how difficult it is to keep your hands steady while moving and walking. Definitely don't want any accidental jerks or yanks on a horse not confident with contact)


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## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

Three and a half years ago I bought a horse that reared and hurled herself sideways to the ground. I thought I knew enough to get her going. It was a lot harder than I thought it would be because disengaging her hindquarters did not work with her. That made her "clock out" and go on the ground sideways.

There was something very special about her, and I just didn't want to give up. I discovered that when she started acting up, I could get someone to pony her and she would just go right along. We'd have to do this 2 or 3 times a ride for about 100 feet. In about 6 months, we didn't have to do that any more. I have worked with her long and hard for 3 1/2 years and now she rides everywhere solo, is a dream to ride (she always was when she wasn't rearing and spinning). Now, when she thinks she'd like to rear, I have her stand very quietly for however long it takes. Disengaging her hind feet has the opposite effect on her. It makes her lose her mind, spin, rear, and come over. (Obviously, in the beginning she would not wait or stand still--she'd get mad and up and over she'd go.) She doesn't like to wait or stand still, so nowdays standing quietly keeps her calm, and after a while she decides she'd rather go forward than not at all. Everyone tells me she is lucky she is not in a dog food can. She has turned out really well . . . but it was a LOT of WORK, not to mention, as many people have said, dangerous. Every horse is different and what works for one horse doesn't always work for every horse. Right now I am working with another horse that rears and disengaging his hindquarters is just what he needs and works great.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

WALK AWAY.

That is my suggestion. Walk away from that horse. It is dangerous and it will get you killed. I have a rearer - he is retired but I tried every training method known to man. Well, that's not true because I never flipped him. My rearer did not flip, he merely reared. I got him as a three year old and I used the tie down, the between the ears smack, the raw egg smack... you name it, I did it. I retired him from riding at around 30 years old and the last day I rode him... he reared. He's 33 and arthritic now but if I got on him today he would rear. I never could train it out of him.


I know you say she's not doing it to be mean because it's not in her nature, but I highly doubt she is doing it because she's scared. She is on OTTB so she knows how to ride. She is just saying no and she is doing it in a very dangerous way.


So my suggestion is walk away.


I did learn ways to avoid the rear. I used to keep him moving for one thing. Standing still didn't happen very often with us. I got to wear I could feel the rear before it happened. It's a tensing in the shoulder area that I could feel. I would keep him moving forward. Moving forward, he could not rear. If he ever locked his front feet (planted them), I spun him to the right or left with a hard yank to the reign. Kicking him would start the rear so I had to do it with reign action. Also, if he started the rear before I could get him moving, I would yank that reign to the right or left before his feet got more than 12 or 18 inches off the ground. That would knock him off balance and force him to the ground. Then I would get his butt moving before he could start the next rear. He was really smart though so sometimes he would wait for me to lean forward to get that good yank on the reign and he would snap his head in the opposite direction and rip me right out of the saddle mid rear. He wasn't mean either, just ornery. He still is ornery. I got to wear I carried the end of a broom stick on a loop so I could hang it on my saddle. I used to bop him between the ears so he would think he was hitting his head on something. That only works if you do it on the "up" portion of the rear. If you do it on the way down then you've missed your window and don't get the desired effect. You want him to think he's hitting his head on something. So it has to happen while he is moving up.


I still say walk away though. That's my opinion.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

My first suggestion is to walk away and sadly the horse should be euthanized. *I think this is what you should do.* 
If you don't want to do that
You can stop a rear if you're quick enough to use the method you've given but you can do that forever and all it does is stop the horse from rearing - it doesn't solve the problem of the horse not wanting to go forwards
You could take the bit out of the scenario and use a side pull 
The horse needs to know how to lunge and respond to verbal cues. Horses like this benefit from lungeing in side reins so they can learn to accept pressure
You could train the horse to long rein (sorry I always forget what you call that - drive lining?)
You could 'pony' the horse off a good reliable horse it gets on with It can take a while to get the message over to them and its useful to lead them for a while with a rider on board once they've figured out that going out isn't dreadful. I use side reins on horses that I'm leading like this - not too tight, just enough that they get used to moving into some pressure. I don't use side reins on the horse once its got a rider on it
If you get on this horse you should wear a good helmet and a good body protector
*NOTE* If you do decide to try any methods suggested in this thread its something that you must take responsibility for if anything goes wrong - the forum and its members aren't going to be held to blame.


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## Filly515 (Jul 8, 2016)

My friend who owns her has years of retraining OTTBs, just not flippers. She has done all the ground work, including ground driving and that's when the problem started... When the bit went in her mouth. Until that point it was not an issue. As stated in my original post, she does w/t/c on the lunge line... She has been on her a handful of times. This is not a totally fresh OTTB. My friend had made the Olympic team years ago but unfortunately had to drop out after breaking her back 2 weeks into training and at this point does not want to deal with this horse. I show pleasure horses, trained my now 12yo appendix mare that I bought as a yearling, and have worked with many problem horses. Although, same as my friend, I haven't dealt with flippers. My other current project horse owned by another friend of mine came from a "trainer" (note the quotation marks) that thought desensitizing literally meant throwing a mounting block at the horse while her legs were tied together with rope... And that's only the beginning. So she was a headcase at only 3 yo but is coming around after learning she can trust people again. 

I am drawn to problem horses and I firmly believe that just about any issue can be fixed, sometimes it takes the right person. I'm not saying thats me but there's something about this horse and I'm going to give it my best shot. I know pulling their head around and disengaging their hip will stop them from rearing but I was concerned about her going on her side instead as someone else had mentioned. My plan is to start over from the beginning again with lots of groundwork. But I wanted to arm myself with as much info as possible to see what others may have tried. I will give bitless a try when I get to that point since that seems to be the problem, it's ONLY when you apply pressure to her mouth. I am going to start from the beginning with groundwork to personally build a solid foundation with this horse and get to know her well... before ever setting foot in a stirrup.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

If your friend is that experienced and doesn't want to deal with it, that should say something. 

Otherwise find another trainer who does have experience with flippers.


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## Filly515 (Jul 8, 2016)

The sole reason for her not wanting to deal with it is because of her back. Yes she takes a risk every day by continuing to ride and train but it's quite understandable that this is a different situation. She does feel that the horse has potential for eventing which is why she doesn't want to give up entirely on this horse which is why she had asked for my help.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Have you checked her mouth very thoroughly for wolf teeth? Sometimes they have been removed but one might have snapped off and be just under the skin, you can usually feel it if you exert pressure along the gum or if you can't feel it and she throws herself about it might well be the cause of the problem.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I assume that her mouth has been carefully evaluated by a dental vet? 

has anyone tried riding her in a sidepull?

personally, I would not go anywhere near a confirmed flipper, however attractive it might be. only expert, experts should even try dealing with that.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

My thought is that there are thousands of eventing prospects out there who don't want to flip over and kill or maim their riders.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree that a horse going over backwards, is a dangerous hrose.
I also bought a horse off the track, that reared and went over backwards
It was also not her fault, as she must have had some bad experiences in the starting gate
She produced some very nice babies, once I put her in the brood mare band.
I was a bit more experienced with this vise, by the time I got her, form the time that my step dad bought me a spoiled stud that reared and went over backwards, when I was juts a teenager
Thus, I did get her cured, to a degree, by not letting her plant that rear, booting her forward, ect, but when push came to shove, she reverted.
Once, some horses came galloping up behind her, and she was back in starting gate mode,When I held her back, she just went up
I think rearing and going over backwards, is one of the most dangerous vises a horse can have.
I was blessed with ignorance, and pure luck, as a teenager, as that stud went over on me quite a few times, with me then just getting back on, while my poor mother rung her hands in distress.Could have had my spinal cord crushed!


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

As a youth, I saw a horse go over backwards on a girl. Blood was coming out of her ears, the rest of us on horseback, were told to leave as the ambulance was coming. She died. The horse was her grandpa's as I recall, it had been to numerous trainers to get rid of this vice, obviously it wasn't cured. No one ever rode that horse again, it stayed in the pasture until it died years later. No way, no how, never will I tackle a rearer, I just can't after seeing that.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Here's what I would do if she were mine:

1) Get a vet and get X rays of the jaw. My vet charges about $25 an X ray, which is very reasonable. Sometimes horses get wolf teeth that don't erupt and can't be seen by looking in the mouth. She could have a bone chip in her jaw, or gotten kicked in the head... etc. 

I once saw an equine dentist take a hammer to remove a horse's wolf teeth- this was done at a university as a class demonstration. He spent 45 minutes trying to tap the tooth out. The horse was not sedated and was rearing/throwing a fit. And for good reason!!!! Whoever ended up buying the horse at the end of the semester probably now has some serious issues to deal with. 

2) All work should be done from the ground. You can teach a horse a ton of things from the ground- lateral movements, giving to pressure. There are some excellent books on this: Lessons in Lightness (Mark Russell), Schooling horses in hand (Hinrichs), Horse training in Hand (Schuthof-Lesmeister) I would put a saddle on that mare and pony her off another horse. Teach her to trail ride. All that can be done without someone on her back. If you want to teach her to jump, you can even school over cavalleti's and grids. Without a rider.

If she were mine, I would probably wait at least a year without rearing before putting someone on her back. As others have said, it is not worth risking your life over. 

3) Get rid of the bit. The more she rears and flips, the more it becomes ingrained in her memory. If I want to escape the pressure, I should rear and flip... Teach the horse to properly give to pressure in a halter or side pull. Do not add the bit until that horse gives to the lightest touch and is no longer fearful and resistant. Does the bit have a curb chain? It may be the curb chain the horse reacts to, rather than the bit itself. 

4) When/if you eventually get to riding, make sure she can ride on a loose rein and whoa off of voice or seat. Again, you do not want to be pulling on the reins. 

As for giving to the bit, I would be very hesitant to introduce side-reins (for lunging). If you do introduce them, keep them loose. 

As for her being an Eventing Prospect- NO. Many of the eventing riders use harsh bits and are all over the horses backs or pulling on their mouths. She will definitely need a rider who can ride on a loose and soft rein with the lightest aids. TB's are sensitive and it doesn't take much to make them reactive and fearful. You want her in a calm thinking state of mind. You do not want to encourage nervousness. 

I was once on a trail ride where a horse flipped over. The guy was riding next to me as we approached a break in the trail. He pulled back on the reins while trying to decide which way to turn. As he pulled back, his horse flung itself to the ground over backwards. He was extremely lucky, as the horse landed on his leg, but did not do any damage. It did crack the saddle tree- I heard something go crunch. 

Surprisingly he kept the horse. I suspect it may have been the curb bit that contributed to the accident but who knows? Maybe the horse saw something we didn't?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Now, while I agree many rearers are man made, that video shows equipment being wrongly used, by some 'horse woman; in shorts, that looks clueless.
It also slanders good trainers out there, that use both bits and, yes, even chains run under the chin correctly
Guess what, I both show horses in hand, with a stud shank, and ride with bits, but have created not one rearer in more then 30 years of raising and training horses. The only rearer I ever had,were ones someone else had already created
A well broke horse has to both ride on a loose rein, in my books, but also accept contact.
Anyone who flips a horse, taking a reasonable hold on the horse, is using the bit incorrectly, riding just off his hands, or has a poorly trained horse.
Many horses that balk, will also add rearing to that repertoire, and I have seen the same sort of scenario , with ahrose going up, but it was because the horse was anxious to head home, and when held back, reared. Many of these spoiled horses won;t stand, esp if heading home, and if that rider does not know how to disengage hips, do some other body control exercises to get that horse's mind aback to them, and just takes hold of that hrose, eager to head home, that spoiled horse will rear at times
What OTTB's don't have, is the training to be a saddle horse, knowing very little if anything, about leg aids, ridden just off of hands,So yes, going back to basics, whether in a snaffle or a side pull or bosal is a place to start
But, eventually, a horse has to learn to accept contact, when it is needed, while driving with legs, as there is no way to train a horse ,just riding with a loose rein from the beginning
Any equipment can be used incorrectly, but having a video that is so far out there, going on in some condescending manner,is done rightnanoying, and does zero , far any credibility


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

4horses said:


> As for her being an Eventing Prospect- NO. *Many of the eventing riders use harsh bits and are all over the horses backs or pulling on their mouths.* She will definitely need a rider who can ride on a loose and soft rein with the lightest aids. TB's are sensitive and it doesn't take much to make them reactive and fearful. You want her in a calm thinking state of mind. You do not want to encourage nervousness.


Really? I find this comical honestly. Event riders have good and bad among them, just like every other discipline. In fact, I have always admired event riders for their guts, heart, and talent. It takes a lot of finesse to be able to compete in dressage, show jumping, AND cross country, on the same horse! And well, from what I understand, Thoroughbreds and Warmbloods dominate the sport!

I don't think anyone could win anything riding the way you stated they do.

This horse needs a couple years of serious reschooling before she could safely be considered for any discipline.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

"just about any issue"

Maybe, but this is one of those issues even 99% trainers experienced with problem horses often won't touch with a 50 foot pole. Once they've learned that you can never fully trust them, ANYTHING can set them off, and it's the matter of time before someone gets hurt.

Rearing can be dangerous but is workable, flipping? No. the horse has a screw loose to do it, they are willing to hurt themselves and a horse that will do that can't be trusted. (@farmpony84 the story of the die hard rearer I heard second hand the horse suddenly stopped after rearing into a solid beam and lightbulb and injuring himself badly to get however many stitches plus knocking himself unconscious, but obviously no one is going to do something like that on purpose!)

Experienced with problem horses isn't enough, you need to be working directly with someone experienced (and successful) with THIS problem.

And if you ride her? Not only do you need to be an EXCELLENT rider but you need to be a good horse person who can read the horse and also an athlete who can get off a horse that is going down in any time in any direction not only safely but push yourself away so you don't get trapped underneath, I'm gonna be honest that a good rider a good trainer and a good athlete are very rarely found in the same person. And anyone else who ever rides her will need to meet those criteria too.

I had a horse flip on my watch once, just a freak thing, we heard the girl scream ran over and she was lying there saying she couldn't move and her face was white. At 11pm in the dead of winter. Luckily she was ok...after being rushed to the hospital, but what we do is dangerous enough, we honestly didn't know if she was going to be ok or not it wasn't one of those. I've always thought the most dangerous thing is a horse falling as obviously you WILL also fall. But a horse that is willing to hurt itself and hurt you (and sometimes trying to) by launching you then falling _on top_ of you? There's also not going to be anyone home for the horse to even think to try and avoid you... That's a completely different ball game and short of a horse that is actually vicious the last thing I would ever deal with.

At the end of the day you can't train self preservation and a 1000lb animal that you expect to gallop around and jump with extreme reactions and reaction time isn't something that ANYONE can safely work with if it doesn't have self preservation.

I have never heard of a flipper successfully being cured. I guarantee you could put that horse in some situation and it would revert like Smilie's example. I agree that most things you can find some situation that would probably work itself out, this just isn't one. I hate to say "can't be fixed" but this really isn't something that can be 100% fixed. And when it does happen it's not pretty.

And if she can't accept contact you can't ride her cross country. Heck they have "starting gates" even if it's not the same. Talk about putting them in a situation to revert...getting her all riled up and ready to go but she can't run yet and has to hold herself back? Sounds like a situation where rearing is a risk for any horse and requires lots of training and good handling, then you have one that has learned reliably not only to rear but to go backwards?

While I think ponying is great I don't think it will have any benefit to this horse's issue whatsoever, unless one is hoping that she just forgets? You can't avoid this type of thing and hope it goes away.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

She is dangerous. You say she does the flip and rear when you put pressure on her mouth/face have disease , illness , injury ruled out by a Vet before you continue doing anything. I was 14 or so and used to ride this bald face mare, she started rearing all the time, she was going blind. I had my eyebrow bone fx'd by my own horse that reared. 
I will not own a horse that rears, or acts like it is going to rear. 
That rearing flipping horse can kill you. 
That video of the scared horse at the auction with the scared girl who needed to be properly dressed is shameful . Also there is a comment on the post about someone knowing people who teach the race horses to rear / No decent race barn does that !


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Even if this is a health problem and the vet finds it, that will not cure the problem. These kinds of horses do not just get over it. She will have flash backs and that will be her reaction. Short of lobotomizing her, it's not worth it.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

OP
Based on the post where you say that this behavior started when she was bitted for long reining - so before anyone even sat on her - I think your friend needs to have a vet take a really good look into her mouth, possibly under sedation if she's the sort to object and see if there's something going on that's causing pain and if there's nothing found then an X ray of the head needs to be done
It isn't fair to the horse to make it work through or worse to write it off and euthanise it if its in pain and that pain could be removed in some way. 
It's possible that the horse will always associate a bit with pain even after the pain is no longer there, this can happen either from some existing condition or if they've been abused in some way or had an accident that resulted in the bit hurting them badly. If that's the case then the horse would likely ride well in a side pull or mechanical hackamore for jumping phases of evening but would never do the dressage phase


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

Personally this is a horse I wouldn't touch with a 10ft poll. This is a horse I'd consider putting down. I'd try what I could but it gets to a point where your life isn't worth less than this horses. If this horse abandons all self regard, I wouldn't take the chance. I've come too close to extremely serious injuries trying to re-train problem children. I've learned a lot of tact and have great reflexes and instincts from it but at some point you start asking yourself at what point is it really worth it? 

Even if she's sweet, even if they find a root of pain. Horses like this DONT tend to just get over whatever psychological trauma they have. The fact that she flips over with NO regard to her own well being and repeatedly does this says she has no sense of self preservation and makes her incredibly dangerous. And mares can be impossible to fix once they have a serious extent of psychological damage or association with a pain issue. Some horses are purely instinctual and you can't reason with them NO MATTER how good of a rider you are, no matter how empathetic you are, no matter how incredible your bond is with a horse on the ground. 

I've retrained my fair share of problem children, some because they just have a difficult temperament, some from psychological abuse or pain related issues or training issues but what I've learned is you can't fix them all, no matter how extensively you look into a possible cause, how much re-training you give, how patient you are or anything else. I used to get called when there was a problem horse no one else wanted to ride because I did well with them. 

You could try without a bit but I'm not convinced it's the bit. I think at this point it's psychological. Mares are much more sensitive and dont forget, some have a high anxiety temperament which this one sounds like she may have which is where they lose their mind to such an extent they panic and abandon all self preservation and regard.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Maybe try a bosal?


I would probably never trust this horse, but then I am a devout coward in my mature years.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

Wow, I had a horse like this I was training. 
He is a thoroughbred too, cremello color with blue eyes, 2yo. 
I think he has trouble seeing, but the owner never agreed to have the vet check him out, even after he reared and flipped twice. 
The owner had a couple caballeros break him, I think with a bosal? The owner told me he was broke to ride. The owner did not tell me he had never had a bit. 
None the less, he was fine going forward and following the curve of the arena, but when it came to standing and turning he gave no warning, reared and flipped over on me, it was scary. 
She said it was a fluke and he needed to gain weight because he was too light and that's why he flipped (really I know better than that but let's let the owners imagination run wild here)...

I worked him ground driving and he would rear and occasionally flip, but he also acted very strange, much more different than other horses, it's like he couldn't see, or he was very nonreactive till the last minute then BOOM!
I just found out since I gave up on him, that he is being sent to another trainer off property. I just texted her to tell her about him, because we don't need more people getting hurt. If there was ever a solution I would love to give the horse the chance to know better, and be good for us humans. I just don't think it's safe, and I have to agree I think flippers are so dangerous they shouldn't be ridden. 
This horse also has bad club feet, contracted tendons, the gnarliest parrot mouth I've ever seen (though that might be a problem with the bit for him too?)
All and all, who ever bred him was out of their right mind for starters, and the people who look at him and think he is so pretty, well, he is sorta, but then you start to see this ugly side of him and for me that's where it all falls apart and ends!
I would give up on that horse, you don't want to train it, sell it, have it be resold and eventually the owners never know if this history, horse gets triggered, someone gets hurt, not good. 
Just logged back in after years to say this^, 
Enjoy your day everyone!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I do not think I would try a bosal. Bosals are actually a whole lot more harsh than a bit and if you don't know how to use it right you could get into some trouble really quickly. 

I still stand by my original suggestion which is to stay away from that horse. While it is very possible that the horse has some type of medical issue that is causing it to rear, I really think this is a behavioral issue. My guess is that it was rearing in the gate. A lot of off the off the track thoroughbreds have behavioral issues because the trainers are not as concerned about how well they behave on the ground. it is more about how fast they run. 

If you were a professional trainer that was getting paid for this then I would say that is completely up to you but because you are a rider and you don't own the horse I would not suggest messing with it.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

I know of two trainers in my general area who have been killed by horses that flipped on them. A third was out for three years. One in the hospital for almost a year, another year learning to do every day things, and a third year rebuilding his life; he lost everything. 

Don't play around with this kind of thing. You can die, and it will happen in an instant. If I could like all of the comments on the previous pages en-mass I would.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I also believe it started in the starting gate, as I myself bought such a horse
They just have a mental trigger,, so that as soon as they feel any pressure, their reaction is to go up and over.
In my case, that mare even reared and flipped, when being led. If you just walked forward, leading her, and this is with a plain halter and lead shank, soon as the slack was out of that lead shank.
She also halter pulled, so it was not a bit problem, but a condtioned/learned response , far as resisting, versus giving
As stated, I did trail ride her, bur would never have dreamed of putting one of my children on her, nor could I ever truly relax riding her
Far as ground driving, if you can't do it, while keeping slack in the lines, unless you wish to make contact, don't use it.
Sure, go ahead and check for any pain issue, ride her bittless, but be prepared that the problem will likely still be there


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The fact that the owner bought several hroses form the same person, who have gone on to doing well, tells you something.
Race horses are run on the bit, so very likely, soon as she feels that mouth contact, she is mentally back in that starting gate, with some horses learning to rear, waiting for that gate to open
No different then some roping horses in that roping box, also going up, waiting for that barrier to drop Of course, many of them have tie downs on, so limits how far they can go up


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