# Today my horse killed another horse



## Allison Finch

Welcome to the forum. Too bad it is for such a sad reason.

Yes, I have heard of similar situations. There was a saddle mule that we used for our pack trips. He was extremely aggressive towards foals and actually killed a couple of good Belgian draft foals. He jumped a fence into a neighboring ranchers field where they were.

It is not unknown for there to be aggression issues between mares and geldings. That is a reason most farms keep them in separate pastures. Usually the aggression stops at a certain point...but not always. Sorry.


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## Oxer

yikes! There is something particularly scary when a prey animal becomes predatory. I'm interested to see what the veteran horse folks have to say about this....


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## Arielle

That sounds awful! I would say start bringing him near other, more superior horse and have him get used to not being on the top of the bunch and maybe his attitude will change. I would also maybe after a while of being around more horses have him on a long lead around another horse in a large area and watch his reaction. Try to correct him when he is being mean and aggresive to other horses. Be sure you are with other people if anything goes wrong. It sounds like he has maybe been in a bad situation with another horse and in acting in self defense. With that attitude he may hurt someone or even himself. Ask your vet, maybe he has a better answer. I am sorry about the mare that is really, really sad.


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## arrowsaway

I, too, would be afraid that he would hurt someone, since he has proven himself to be so dangerous.

I wish I could offer more insight, but I have no experience with such a situation. I just thought I would offer my condolences. This must be very difficult for you. Stay strong.


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## FWDequine

Well...my brother is an equine vet. He says if it was his horse he would put him down.


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## gingerscout

Im sad to say a lot of vets would probably recommedn putting them down, i know in similar cases I have read about on forums that is a huge red flag and a lot of people say maybe put them down.. I know it sounds like a harsh option, but if its something you cant work through, or the horse is that unstable it may be an option, sometimes it can be worked through with training, or observation and see whats going on, but other times you cant


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## Kayty

I am very sorry to hear this. 
Though I must agree with your brother. I think, for your sake, your horses' sake, and the safety of those around the horse in question, human or animal, putting him down may be the kindest option for all concerned. I would be worried about putting him in with any horse, even another very dominant horse - which could spell disaster with both horses fighting it out to the death. But keeping him on his own is not fair on him. 
Hence the consideration of putting him down. 

Good luck with what ever you decide to do.


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## Joe4d

BB's
Bullet, backhoe. 
Something isnt right with that horse gonna be a person next.


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## Stan

All animals have there rouges Just look at the human species. Some we control with drugs, some we lock up. All species have there nut cases and as the animal at the top of the list we have the power to destroy or to save. Some can not be saved and then the hard decisions have to be made, sometimes before further harm is done. The animal that chases, corners, and kills needs to be put down for the safety of all.


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## xxBarry Godden

Dequine - indeed a sad story. There could be a number of causes but to find out why is perhaps a job for a horse psychologist and maybe a vet. A pair of horses -a mare and a gelding will come to dominance even in a small herd but usually issues are settled with a bite or two and perhaps a kick. Nevertheless a horse can kill inadvertently with the power and weight of its feet or the power of its jaw. An issue might be whether the horse intended to kill or was it an inadvertent outcome.

I'd suspect the horse being a rig (incomplete castration), hormones, fresh spring grass, pain from some cause perhaps ulcers, and then there is temperament - a sump for anti social behaviour.

In the UK, if the mare were owned by a third party, you be sued for the value of the mare. But how you compensated that owner for the loss of their mare is a very problematic issue. Most owners would seek euthanasia of any aggressive horse for a variety of reasons but particularly on safety grounds.

It is rarely a good idea in a domesticated horse environment to mix geldings and mares - especially in the early spring, when hormones take over. It is good practice to divide up your fields with electric tape. But even another gelding would be at risk if you put the aggressive horse in the paddock with it. 

It has been suggested you put the animal down and in an inexperienced environment where the humans may not have 24/7 surveillance of what is going on , then this is often the safe policy - ie eliminate the risk. A horse which 
fights could well be a danger to humans and other domestic animals ie dogs. 

As for your riding a schizophrenic horse out in society in company with other horse and rider couples - well that's not a good idea.

The fundamental problem you face is that you can never be sure you have eliminated the risk of the horse freaking out. You might find one cause and leave another lying dormant. As a human handler you would always have to be on your guard and never turn your back on the animal. Sooner or later it will get you.

If I were in your shoes, then I would probably put the animal down - unless I could find a very good reason for keeping it alive but separated from the other horses. However to keep a horse permanently alone is in itself a form of cruelty to the horse.

From the facts you have related to us, euthanasia is the obvious decision to make - for your own and third parties's safety.

If your relative want an animal to eat the grass, then buy some sheep or goats (if you can tolerate the noise).


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## Joe4d

i would have dealt with this problem while the arrangements for the mare were still on sight.


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## MissColors

Arielle said:


> That sounds awful! I would say start bringing him near other, more superior horse and have him get used to not being on the top of the bunch and maybe his attitude will change. I would also maybe after a while of being around more horses have him on a long lead around another horse in a large area and watch his reaction. Try to correct him when he is being mean and aggresive to other horses. Be sure you are with other people if anything goes wrong.


Sorry to call you out but I completely disagree with your post. That could just drive the horses anger more when your not around depending on the horse. I've seen horses just go out and try to attack other horses whether or not people are around. And i almost got my back kicked almost at my spine. Ontop of having being trampled if i hadnt jumped over the door after i got cornered from a horse that was trying to attack the one that i was leading. That could potentially be very dangerous. There was a wanna be alpha mare once that just came out if no where and savagely beat up my horse and before mine she had done the same to one of my friends mares. My horses backside and other spots on his body were all purple from the blucoat. 

I guess it all depends on the horse. The only way we kept the wanna be alpha mare was to stick her in a pasture with an 8 foot fence.

I hope you can work something out. I'm so sorry about your brothers mare. Just try not to make any rational decisions that you might regret later. Maybe something as a quietex type supplement just to help even him out like an antidepressant would do for a person. I would consult with your vet to figure out the steps to help your horse but for now I would separate him from the herd.


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## herdbound

I agree with your brother. I hate to say that but I feel like the horse has teetered over into the point of no return. I am sorry to say that and it may offend you, but that is what I personally would do.


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## GotaDunQH

Agree with the others about putting the horse down. It REALLY is quite a sad and unfortunate situation, but some horses are just not right in the mind. This horse is dangerous and volatile; he's already killed a horse...what's next?


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## franknbeans

I am so sorry. I know this is a difficult situation at best. My (old, retired arthritic at this point) gelding actually attacked a mare about 15 yrs ago. I was not home, but a friend(the owner of the mare) actually intervened with the tractor, and separated the animals. I was in a state of shock, and felt horrible! My guy, who is a draft cross, that is always a barn favorite for his kind eye, gentle nature......how could this have happened? The mare was a very dominant mare, for sure, but still. Anyway, at that point a casual conversation I had with his previous owner came to mind......that my guys mother had been killed a couple of years prior, and they never really knew what happened. Just found beaten up in the run in. At that point my guy would have been about 2. Certainly old enough to do that. I have always wondered if he was the one who killed her.
It has now been yrs since this happened. He is again in a mixed herd, and there has not been another issue or even a hint of one, ever. He has never ever been dominant toward any person and only pins his ears when food is involved and another horse comes near. If you speak harshly, he backs off. Hard to say what snaps in their mind or if it will ever happen again. You may have trouble finding places to keep him for sure, and the decision whether to put him down has to be yours.


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## Cherie

I have had several horses over the years that were that mean to other horses. I've had two killed. One had been kicked above her hock and her leg was badly broken. The other was run into a corner, was put through/over a fence and impaled on a steel post. 

Some of these mean horses were very good horses under saddle and showed no aggression to other horses when ridden. I guess they were that well trained. Not one of them was aggressive toward people -- on the ground or mounted or anywhere. I have always sold them with a warning that they could not be pastured with other horses. Their new owners got along with them very well. 

Horses that are aggressive turned out in a group are NOT predatory. They are not hunting. They are just that possessive of their territory or are protective of one of the other horses they are with.

You are NOT going to find another horse to manner him. He will just hurt that horse, too.

Since this is a gelding and he was aggressive toward a mare, I would guess she was the previous 'lead mare' and she was probably 'guarding' another mare in the herd. She probably did not 'back off' from this gelding quickly enough and he took to her. That's how my incidents have been.

Oddly enough, all of the geldings I have had that were that mean did not not have high testosterone levels. I had two of them checked. One acted very staggy around mares but had a perfectly low/normal hormone level. I was sure he must have had a retained testicle -- but he didn't. That was about 40 years ago and was when I started keeping mares and geldings separate almost all of the time. 

So, I would not kill this horse if he rides good enough for you to like him and if he is not aggressive toward other horses when under saddle. If he is not that well mannered and trained or is irrational under saddle, kill him before he does more harm. If he is aggressive toward people on the ground, kill him.


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## Big Black Crow

I have had a similar but different issue last spring. I had purchased a pinto gelding that was listed for sale as a good solid beginners riding horse. They were anxious to sell and by the time I responded to the ad, they had planned on taking him to the auction. They lived about 2 hours from me and there was no way to get to him before their scheduled trip to the sale.... However, the auction is located about 45 minutes from me and I decided to just have them drop him on the way (I'm in between) 

Big quiet gelding unloaded and I was pleased with my purchase. Let him settle a day or two and then rode him...nothing eventful just your basic get on and go. Basic training nothing spectacular but I knew I could brush that up. 

I bring all the horses in at night for feeding and one night after I'd had him about 10 days or so, I reached to put his grain in his stall and he went beserk. Lunged across the stall, bit my hand and slammed into the wall, pinning my hand between his teeth and the wall. I left the adjacent stall (the one I'd reached over to his feeder, and when he saw me through the bars at the front of his stall started slamming himself at the wall trying to get at me. I got out of the line of vision grabbed my phone and called someone to come take me to the hospital. Luckily the hand is very collapsible and no bones were broken...but it was purple and swelled several times it's normal size. 

I, like most horse people, tried to figure out what I had done wrong...did I startle him when he saw my hand? Did he feel his space invaded? But that would only account for the original bite...not the slamming against the wall trying to tear it down do get me. I am very thankful I did just reach over the stall, if he had done it while I walked in, he probably would have killed or maimed me. 

I watched him carefully the next few days.. I kept him turned out alone and made sure his food was there and I didn't bring it to him. In this time he'd go from 90 percent of the time like a perfect boy, to watching him run to the hay pile to stomp and tear at it like a crazed thing. 

I live alone on my farm and if something happens to me, my critters are sunk. I contacted the original owners and they got very defensive and said, well if we'd had problems we'd have just taken him to the auction...ummmmm, you did. I couldn't place him with anyone one else for fear he would be resold as "normal" and injure or kill someone, a guy I know offered to buy him to take directly to processing, but I couldn't put the horse through that either. After much soul searching I felt the best option for myself and the horse was to euthanize him. I had to explain the whole situation to my vet and she agreed while it seemed radical, it was the best option to protect people and ultimately the horse. 

Sorry for the novel, but I think you should probably do the same. Even if you place him with someone with full disclosure, there are no promises the next person will be so truthful and that the horse won't end up killing again. 

You are in my thoughts. It's not an easy decision.


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## Sanala

Crow, that's a terrifying story. I can't imagine what it's like dealing with a violent horse at feeding time, I've thankfully never dealt with a horse like that. You did the right thing.

OP (and Crow), I'm so sorry you have to deal with an issue like this. As Cherie said, if he's only aggressive out in the pasture - keep him separated. If he is violent various times and towards people, euthanasia really is the right choice. It is not worth your safety or the safety of other animals to keep a violent horse around. To attempt to train them out of it is a waste of time and endangers yourself and others. I hope the best for you.


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## farmpony84

Sometimes when you rescue a horse, whatever "bad" they experienced in their lifetime just can not be washed away and sometimes you never figure out what triggers a reaction. I am very sad to say that I think you may be right, from a human and animal perspective, it may be time to let him go. 

That does not mean that you gave up on him. It just means that you ended whatever inner torments he may be suffering from.


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## equiniphile

I'm sorry, but it sounds like this may be "one of those horses". Even if kept secluded for the rest of his life, there's always the risk of him escaping....someone mistakenly turning him out with other horses. You have to weight the risks and ask yourself if it's really best to keep him alive. So sorry you have to go through this.


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## Sheepdog

When we moved to the farm about six years ago among th horses my grandfather bought me were some Saddlers. Among them was an eighteen year old Saddler Stallion, a son of Ben Gurion. A stunning animal. With a reputation for killing any other male horse he can sink his teeth in. He thankfully came with a mare, a half sister to whom he was extremely attached, so I just made sure I kept the two of them in a seperate camp away from my other horses. Thankfully the farm is divided into several camps, so it was relatively easy, and he never showed any aggression towards mares, once or twice I would put another mare in with him and Lady and like clockwork 11 months later you would have a souvenier. Then his Lady died. At 20 years of age and with a threemonth old filly at foot, one morning she did not come down to the water. We found her lying dead in the veld from no apparent cause. Now I had a problem, what to do with old Ben? Thenkfully salvation came in the form of a Saddler breeder who originally wanted to buy the mare, but was willing to take the stallion of my hands. He has the facilities to handle him and last I heard he had succesfully fathered several more foals and were living as good a life as is possible.


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## Dunroamin

Sadly I agree with your brother... if your horse has this intense anger, I'd hate for you to be riding him when the switch turns on and you've no control... hard but clear decision I think...


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## bsms

Just a few comments. I don't have huge experience with horses, so you can decide if they are relevant...

1 - I've frequently met DOGS who were aggressive toward other dogs, or people, but not both. I've owned a number of dogs who would give their lives without question fighting a dog to protect their people, but who would rather die than ever hurt a person. A 65 lb shepherd mix is now living with my oldest daughter. He is an outstanding guard dog, and he once placed himself between my wife and an aggressive 180 Rottweiler in a stance that clearly said, "You'll have to kill me first" - but if a baby pokes him in the face, he just hides his face.

If horses treated people the way they treat themselves, we would never be able to ride. They would just beat the tar out of us and go back to eating.

2 - Some horses develop hatred for another horse. I sold a mare in Dec 2010 because Trooper hated her, and she hated him. And it was only getting worse. Both got along fine with other horses, but would look for a chance to attack the other one. Trooper was heavier and could win, but Lilly developed a dislike for him that turned into mutual hatred.

She was uncommonly good with every other horse she met, and is now sharing a corral with 2 other horses. We share a trainer & a farrier with the new owners, and I'm told they think she is the best horse they have met. And without her, Trooper does well.

3 - That said, I'm not big on taking chances. Last December, we were given a mustang pony. Small enough for a child to mount, but strong enough to gallop easily with my 175 lbs on his back. He is sure-footed and level headed. The equine dentist, after working on his teeth, offered to buy him on the spot for her nieces. And if I wanted a 4th horse, I'm sure I could have another one free within a week.

If I had a dog that was truly aggressive toward other dogs - who would seek them out to kill them - I'd shoot him ASAP. I've known people who keep dogs like that for years because they were good around people, but I'm not one of them. I ended up with a 3rd dog after one followed my brother-in-law home from the desert. The dog is playful, very loving, and is the gentlest dog I've ever met around babies. Why would I want to take a chance on a dog that kills other dogs - even just once?

I feel the same about horses. If it was a valuable stud, I might put up with it. If I was in to a particular sport, and the horse was awesome at it...I'd figure out how to deal with it. But for just riding? Not a chance! I wouldn't know how to live with myself if there was a repeat killing...


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## dirtroadangel

Allison Finch said:


> Welcome to the forum. Too bad it is for such a sad reason.
> 
> Yes, I have heard of similar situations. There was a saddle mule that we used for our pack trips. He was extremely aggressive towards foals and actually killed a couple of good Belgian draft foals. He jumped a fence into a neighboring ranchers field where they were.
> 
> It is not unknown for there to be aggression issues between mares and geldings. That is a reason most farms keep them in separate pastures. Usually the aggression stops at a certain point...but not always. Sorry.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dirtroadangel

Is he agelding? I must have missedthat part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lockwood

I think others have given you some good advise so I'm not going to repeat it.
Something that goes through my mind as I read this is- what is going on inside this horse's head to cause him to behave this way. Whatever it is it, it might be something that tourments him, or causes him to be a "tortured soul" if one could put a human inflection on it.
You said he had a "switch" of sorts, and it seems there are other red flags about this horse. 
As owners of animals, sometimes we have to make tough choices for our animals because they can't make those choices for themselves.
Sometimes euthanasia really is the kindest choice we can make. 
Terrible wounds and injuries can certainly make euthanasia the obvious choice at times of trauma, but as owners we sometimes need to make the same choice for inner injuries or trauma because it may be the right thing to do for the animal. 
:hug:Hugs. It is a difficult place to be in.


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## mselizabeth

I would also have to agree with most of the posters. Putting her down is the only sure way to prevent her from hurting others again. You never know next time it could be a person, and you could end up with a law suit.


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## Endiku

OP, I am so very sorry that this happened to you. It must of been very traumatic.

I, also, have had this sort of situation to deal with, but with a donkey. Donkeys, ofcourse- are wired differently from horses, but the reason was still the same. This particular donkey, Angelo, was a part of our small petting zoo that we had on our farm and that we brought to parades and events. He was a very mellow animal, minus the trademark stubborness.

Well one day he got out of his pen when one of our volunteers went to get his companion for work. He ran out, jumped into one our our miniature horse mare's pastures, and promptly zeroed in on our tiny 2 day old colt. He savagely attacked him, and would of killed him if the BO's son had not bravely (and in retrospect, probably rashly) jumped in and grabbed the colt out of the way. The donkey didn't stop there though, and when the colt was not in reach he turned on the boy and grabbed him arm and face, tearing the boys arm up so badly that he was in the ICU for two weeks and has permanent and severe scarring on his neck, face, and arm. The donkey was promptly shot by our BO. We couldn't risk the donkey doing something even nearly as bad again, with us running a therapy center for children.

Having said that, I think that if you feel like there is ANY chance that this gelding will act agressively against people, or you have no way to pasture him completely solitarily, kill him. An agressive horse is not often seen, but it is extremely dangerous, especially after having the satisfaction if victory.


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## spirit88

Id say have him put down sounds like he just to dangerous to keep around he doesnt sound like hes to safe to ride either. I own a gelding who cannot be with other horses hes mean and will beat the tar out of them. But there have been times he got into the corral with my mare and gelding and all three standing side by side eating hay. Hes also a wonderful riding horse never mean under saddle. I think over the years hes gotten better i see him playing over the fence with my gelding.


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## herdbound

This is where the mindset of "humanizing" horses can be very dangerous. I encourage you to remember that this is an animal. A very large and powerful animal, who was doing something natural to it's standards as I believe Cherie pointed out. It may a little extreme to normal horse behavior BUT the animal was doing what horses do protect it's territory or challenge other horses for it's top spot. It may just be a series of unfortunate events such as he cornered the mare and she was killed trying to escape such as the others posted ex. impaled on posts ect. Whatever happened try to stay logical. Do I think it will turn it's aggressiveness towards people...probably not...BUT knowing that it can bully a horse to death it could turn on people....nothing is impossible. I just think that I wouldn't personally want that sort of responsibility walking around on 4 legs. Knowing that if he ever escaped, or got accidently turned over to new owners who promised NOT to put him in with other horses ect...and they did...he could and would very likely repeat this behavior because it worked in the past. I know it may seem sad, or as if you somehow failed, BUT you did not. This is a freak occurance on a horse that is not "normal". This is not your fault, this is not your brothers fault...this is just one of those sad lessons in the power, strength, and capabilities of this creature. I would encourage you to consider putting him down and finding another horse. There are far too many good, well mannered horses out there that need good homes to keep this one. I know it may seem sad BUT I bet you will actually feel a sense of relief in letting him go in the only way you can GUARENTEE this will never happen again.


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## natisha

Wow. I'm 99.9% certain that this horse was once boarded at my place & I am friends with the owner. The description & circumstances are too dead on for me to be wrong.
If this is the same horse & I'm sure it is, he came here with behavior issues which were easily resolved but he was a ticking time bomb with other horses. He had his own turnout & pasture & was very well behaved-alone.
I was worried when he left that he would fool people into believing that he would be OK in a group. 
I'm so sorry this happened.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Sometimes things just get so broke you can't fix them. This kind of behaviour is one of those times. I'm surprised your brother didn't euthanize the horse right then and tell you about it later, he'd have been well within his rights. I'm sorry to say that I would euthanize the horse, ESPECIALLY since you cannot keep him on your own property. It's one thing if he kills all your own horses, but to allow him to kill other's horses.....not good.


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## Saddlebag

Was this witnessed or was the horse possibly chased down by dogs? Horses will hang around a downed horse trying to figure out how to get it up.


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## Celeste

Horses see people as part of their herd. Hopefully they accept our dominance without question. On occasion, a horse may challenge our position of authority. My 25 year old retired gelding decided to challenge me and kicked me. I proceeded to remind him (whip in hand) that I am above him in the dominance hierarchy. If he were more aggressive, would I be here today? I would be scared of a horse that chased down and killed another horse. The poster just before me asked the question as to whether he for sure did the deed. That is a good question.


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## FrancesB

When you say 'cornered', do you mean literally in a corner of the pasture? If that is the case, part of the problem might have been that the mare was chased but couldn't get away. Right angle corners aren't all that safe for horses.

A big gelding (17 h) at my riding school used to be aggressive to other horses but nice with people; he calmed down and became good with the others over a couple of years.


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## bsms

Dogs and horses would leave different types of wounds.


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## FirstLightFarm

Sorry, but your brother created the dangerous situation by putting your horse in with his mare. You told him the horse was aggressive with other horses. He chose not to believe you. Sad for the mare, but I don't think your brother can come back now saying your horse should be killed over a situation your brother created.

Some horses can't be pastured with other horses. I've known several. They're just fine with people and would never show aggression to another horse while under saddle. But in turnout, they're aggressive to other horses. *shrugs* Not hard to fix. The feed store sells fence all day long.


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## SkyeDawn

FirstLightFarm said:


> Sorry, but your brother created the dangerous situation by putting your horse in with his mare. You told him the horse was aggressive with other horses. He chose not to believe you. Sad for the mare, but I don't think your brother can come back now saying your horse should be killed over a situation your brother created.
> 
> Some horses can't be pastured with other horses. I've known several. They're just fine with people and would never show aggression to another horse while under saddle. But in turnout, they're aggressive to other horses. *shrugs* Not hard to fix. The feed store sells fence all day long.


I agree with this to a point. If she plans on keeping the horse forever, it's not an issue IF she wants to deal with it. But if the horse got out or they decided to sell the horse... It's a difficult situation. You could tell the buyers that he doesn't do well with other horses, they put him with some anyway, and this happens again.

I hate to say it so plainly, but is the horse worth keeping alive? Is it trainable, is it good under saddle with other horses NO EXCEPTION, do you ride it often, does it have a job? Or is it a pasture ornament that doesn't get much attention or exercise? How is it with dominance and other people?

If it's a cranky pasture ornament that needs special attention and care, I think it might be best to have him put down and replace him with one of the many well mannered horses that desperately need homes and don't have a behavioral issue that is impossible to actually fix. I'm not trying to be callous, but this isn't his first offense, just the most severe. Your brother is within his rights to request you put him down.

Unless he is stellar under saddle, he isn't paying his way and is a detriment to other horses.


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## natisha

Just an update. This is the horse & owner I thought it was. I have just talked to her at length.
This horse lived with me about 3 years & I have seen him attack. Each time I was able to intervene but it was pretty scary & dangerous. 
The owner lives here in WI & sent him to live with her brother in KY in a retirement situation. The brother was warned to not trust the horse. 

This horse is not looking to dominate but to kill & he finally did- a very pregnant mare that he had been out with for almost a year.

There is no pasture big enough, he takes the inside circle & attacks until the victim horse has no options. He is really good or really bad & there is no known etiology for the bad. He's has had extensive work-ups. 

It is unfair to ask her brother to keep a horse like that. He can also be unpredictable when ridden. A switch seems to go off & you can never tell when it will happen.

The owner has decided to let him go. This is very hard for her but after 6 years she has tried all she can.


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## Celeste

There are so many nice horses that need homes. It seems like a good decision.


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## Big Black Crow

Natisha, Please tell her she is in my thoughts today.


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## natisha

Big Black Crow said:


> Natisha, Please tell her she is in my thoughts today.


I will but I'm sure she'll see this too. Thank you.


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## spirit88

WOW natisha thats one scary kind of horse to own. My thoughts and prayers go out to the owner of killed mare and the owner of mean gelding.Having him put down is the right thing to do. Hard to do but in this case best thing.HUGS to both owners.


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## hillside farm

I purchased a coming 3 yr. old reg. arab gelding afew years back for one of my daughters, atthe time I had dairy cattle and one of the heifers had freashen and this gelding was stomping the new born calf, I yelled at him and he left it alone , a couple of years later we had a mare that foaled early and he killed her filly, I sold the horse to people that did not have any horses, and told him why I was selling him.
I believe maybe the smell of blood had something to do with him, because he was fine, as long as he was not near a newborn that was still wet.
I guess I'd keep in seperate if he was my horse, most mares will put a stallion or gelding in their place.


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## CLaPorte432

This is very sad, but I feel that the owner did the right thing. There was something wrong with that horse. Imagine if it had been a child. Or the owner herself. 

Some horses are just "bad" and no amount of training can help.

OP, you did make the right choice and I hope you don't beat yourself up thinking you were wrong. I would have done the same thing.


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## Lockwood

FWDequine-
More hugs to you. :hug:
For whatever reason he behaved this way, be it meaness, bad horse attitude, or inner turmoil, he will be in a more peaceful place.


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## GotaDunQH

Celeste said:


> *Horses see people as part of their herd.* Hopefully they accept our dominance without question. On occasion, a horse may challenge our position of authority. My 25 year old retired gelding decided to challenge me and kicked me. I proceeded to remind him (whip in hand) that I am above him in the dominance hierarchy. If he were more aggressive, would I be here today? I would be scared of a horse that chased down and killed another horse. The poster just before me asked the question as to whether he for sure did the deed. That is a good question.


A little OT, but my horse does not see me as part of the herd...nor should he. I'm not a horse, I'm a human...something else. 

Back to topic, I read to the end and the correct decision was made here....sad, but correct.


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## natisha

Thanks for the support, I'm sure she appreciates it.
Now I'll tell you something so you can think I'm off my rocker but it's true.
Once while I was in his stall doing something that I forget now, he looked at me. He didn't move a muscle, looked normal but...here comes the weird part...I "heard", through some sort of mental communication, "I want to kill you." Maybe it was more of a feeling but it sure seemed real. I growled at him, told him to knock it off & the 'feeling' went away.
This was before we knew of his aggression.

I didn't tell the owner for some time because it seemed crazy but when I finally did she told me that she had gotten that same message from him at times too. I am not an animal communicator or psychic & I don't think I'm psycho but that may be debatable.

He was a fun horse to work with & a quick study but something was wrong somewhere.


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## FWDequine

I want to thank everyone for your kind words and good advice. As I sob intensely while writing this, I feel so fortunate that there are so many more knowledgeable people about horses-much more than I. I have pounded my brain in trying to figure him out and even had extensive medical testing completed which resulted in no answers. 

I love this horse with all of my heart, but he just is not right and I fear that someone might get in the way of an episode and get injured or worse. My family is hurting as well. My 7year old son is crying and my 9 year old daughter is completely silent-(very unusual for her).

I know my brother will do the euthanasia in a humane way. I guess I better go and make that call. 

Thank you everyone. Take Care.


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## CecilliaB

This is a very sad post. My heart goes out to you and your family for both losses but I do very much think you have made the right decision. That doesn't make it any easier and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. 

Thank you for being brave and making a decision that could potentially prevent further incidents.


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## Lins

I am so sorry. Some horses just have mental problems that neither u nor they can control. I feel for you, I can't imagine the emotions u are feeling. As much joy as our animals bring us, these things do happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cacowgirl

I am filled w/sadness for all involved. And thank you natisha for going "above & beyond". Makes me really appreciate my "good" horses. to the OP-You did all you could-hope you find a sweet horse to fill the hole in your heart., & that the kids feel better soon-such a bad situation. Prayers & kind thoughts to all.


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## natisha

I'm crying too. I loved that big goober with his bunny ears.

I was thinking & maybe someone here has some ideas.

When he first came to live with me he was a cribber & got very sick with horribly high fevers to >106. He required constant meds, care & monitoring. The vets were here often but we never really found a cause for his illness. None of the other horses got sick. This went on for weeks & he pulled through. However, after he got better he no longer cribbed (very minimally on only one stall bucket but no longer needed the cribbing collar) & shortly thereafter is when the aggression to other horses started. 
Could the illness with high fevers maybe have short circuited something in his brain which caused the aggression & also stopped the cribbing? He wasn't always mean but when he snapped he snapped.
Any thoughts? I know it doesn't matter now but he is a mystery.


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## Sunny

I'm sorry this had to happen, but I agree with the others that it was the beat decision.

And pictures of the guy? I'm sure everyone would like to see them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans

natisha said:


> I'm crying too. I loved that big goober with his bunny ears.
> 
> I was thinking & maybe someone here has some ideas.
> 
> When he first came to live with me he was a cribber & got very sick with horribly high fevers to >106. He required constant meds, care & monitoring. The vets were here often but we never really found a cause for his illness. None of the other horses got sick. This went on for weeks & he pulled through. However, after he got better he no longer cribbed (very minimally on only one stall bucket but no longer needed the cribbing collar) & shortly thereafter is when the aggression to other horses started.
> Could the illness with high fevers maybe have short circuited something in his brain which caused the aggression & also stopped the cribbing? He wasn't always mean but when he snapped he snapped.
> Any thoughts? I know it doesn't matter now but he is a mystery.


Interesting thought that certainly seems to make sense. Could explain a lot.

OP-very sorry it ended this way, but in this case, it really does seem like the best thing to do. Natisha-you are awesome-thanks for going over and above.


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## yourcolorfuladdiction

I don't know if the fever would have done it, although he kind of sounds like he might have been deprived of air at birth. Since he was a rescue I doubt you know his full history, and horses who are deprived of air at birth can... for lack of a better term... be "mentally retarded". And just like people, with a lot of work and good training they can be good horses, but since this horse is a rescue I doubt it got what it needed as a baby and young horse to help it develop despite being handicapped mentally. So as it grows up it's going to turn into a monster, that's probably how it became a rescue in the first place.

Being deprived of air at birth is not going to be something that will show up on any of the extensive tests that you did. And it's also not your fault, or something you could have corrected this late in the game. At that point the horse was already a danger to himself and others and you made the right decision.

I would just be thankful that he didn't hurt a person. I also occasionally get "feelings" from horses. Most of the times it's just when they're not feeling well, or when something hurts, but occasionally you get the ones that give you that feeling like you shouldn't go near them. I often listen to that feeling. I've had some that I felt were dangerously stupid, and generally they are (I've had one run through a fence, fall down, get up and continue to run through the fence with his owner on him for no reason).

It is possible that his fever exacerbated his mental situation but I don't think it would have caused it. I would bet that he was deprived of air at birth.


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## FirstLightFarm

Anytime I've ignored my intuition/gut feeling/whatever you call it with horses, I've regretted it. So I'm sure you've made the right decision for all concerned. I'm so sorry you had to make it.


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## Makoda

So I have a question, it sounds like geldings can be this way at times and probably due to their being males who would naturally fight for mares, etc. So do very many if any mares become this way where they will kill other horses?


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## natisha

franknbeans said:


> Interesting thought that certainly seems to make sense. Could explain a lot.
> 
> OP-very sorry it ended this way, but in this case, it really does seem like the best thing to do. Natisha-you are awesome-thanks for going over and above.


Thanks but I didn't do anything special. He was in my care so I cared for him. His owner is my friend & I support her decision, sad as it is.


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## natisha

yourcolorfuladdiction said:


> I don't know if the fever would have done it, although he kind of sounds like he might have been deprived of air at birth. Since he was a rescue I doubt you know his full history, and horses who are deprived of air at birth can... for lack of a better term... be "mentally retarded". And just like people, with a lot of work and good training they can be good horses, but since this horse is a rescue I doubt it got what it needed as a baby and young horse to help it develop despite being handicapped mentally. So as it grows up it's going to turn into a monster, that's probably how it became a rescue in the first place.
> 
> Being deprived of air at birth is not going to be something that will show up on any of the extensive tests that you did. And it's also not your fault, or something you could have corrected this late in the game. At that point the horse was already a danger to himself and others and you made the right decision.
> 
> I would just be thankful that he didn't hurt a person. I also occasionally get "feelings" from horses. Most of the times it's just when they're not feeling well, or when something hurts, but occasionally you get the ones that give you that feeling like you shouldn't go near them. I often listen to that feeling. I've had some that I felt were dangerously stupid, and generally they are (I've had one run through a fence, fall down, get up and continue to run through the fence with his owner on him for no reason).
> 
> It is possible that his fever exacerbated his mental situation but I don't think it would have caused it. I would bet that he was deprived of air at birth.


Thanks for your thoughts. He could have been anoxic. He was smart but it took a strong personality to keep him in line when handled but not much one could do when he was on his own time. You're right, we don't know his history. He is 18.


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## natisha

Makoda said:


> So I have a question, it sounds like geldings can be this way at times and probably due to their being males who would naturally fight for mares, etc. So do very many if any mares become this way where they will kill other horses?


I can't asnswer that but he wasn't studdy. I have never seen a horse that didn't back off once the other horse gave in. He was very determined, other times he would share hay.
I hope to never run into a horse like that again. I feel sorry for him but everything that could be tried was.


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## herdbound

I am saddened by this story because it really speaks volumes about being "proactive" in our decisions about horse owner responsibilities. If this horse had been oxygen deprived I feel the best and most humane thing is to put them down ASAP. I feel that if these behaviors had been witnessed for several years a long time ago this horse should have been put down to avoid the tragedy that unfolded and has lead to his destruction now. I do not muck around with aggression in an animal that is that large...be it towards other animals or worse humans. The whole thing is just tragic, more so because the entire incident could have been avoided...by putting an end to the beginning 18 years ago. Sad.


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## UWLEquestrian

Hi, I just wanted to say I'm so sorry this had to happen. You'll be in my thoughts.


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## Palomine

How is this horse bred, do you have any idea? Years ago, there were some of the Oman's Desdemona Denmarks horses that were very dangerous, and some of the Bourbon bloodlines too.

And the concept of turning horse out with superior horse will only end up getting one or the other killed, and will do NOTHING to solve this. Horses continually vie for pecking order, and just because this rogue horse got put in its place one time? That does not mean 20 minutes later horse will not do it again.

Has this horse ever been tested to see if still producing testosterone or not? Not that that matters at this point, but curious.

But this horse is not safe, and I agree with the post that warned about a person could be next, either on purpose or accidentally. 

PTS is the best, and kindest thing. I am very sorry about the mare that he killed too.


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## natisha

Palomine said:


> How is this horse bred, do you have any idea? Years ago, there were some of the Oman's Desdemona Denmarks horses that were very dangerous, and some of the Bourbon bloodlines too.
> 
> And the concept of turning horse out with superior horse will only end up getting one or the other killed, and will do NOTHING to solve this. Horses continually vie for pecking order, and just because this rogue horse got put in its place one time? That does not mean 20 minutes later horse will not do it again.
> 
> Has this horse ever been tested to see if still producing testosterone or not? Not that that matters at this point, but curious.
> 
> But this horse is not safe, and I agree with the post that warned about a person could be next, either on purpose or accidentally.
> 
> PTS is the best, and kindest thing. I am very sorry about the mare that he killed too.


Hi. Nobody is sure of his breeding. He looked & moved like a Saddlebred but was not real typey. 
I believe he did have testosterone levels drawn at one time & they were normal.
He may have already been PTS. I just talked to his owner & she is going to ask her brother, who is a horse vet, to do a necropsy so hopefully this can a least be a learning experience for others. She's doing OK.


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## stevenson

I would keep him in a seperate pen from now on. I have a draft mix gelding that does get abusive to mares.. he will chase and chase them.He is not proud cut. He is not aggressive people. My draft mix mare is afraid of him, and I think this has encouraged him to be more aggressive, Yet the 30 yr old mustang gelding that is 14 hands will beat the snot out of the draft gelding.


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## natisha

stevenson said:


> I would keep him in a seperate pen from now on. I have a draft mix gelding that does get abusive to mares.. he will chase and chase them.He is not proud cut. He is not aggressive people. My draft mix mare is afraid of him, and I think this has encouraged him to be more aggressive, Yet the 30 yr old mustang gelding that is 14 hands will beat the snot out of the draft gelding.


I think he's already been put down.
When he lived by me he was kept separated once we found out his 'ways.'


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## AlexS

I am so sorry to hear this, my thoughts are with you OP.


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## mom2pride

natisha said:


> I'm crying too. I loved that big goober with his bunny ears.
> 
> I was thinking & maybe someone here has some ideas.
> 
> When he first came to live with me he was a cribber & got very sick with horribly high fevers to >106. He required constant meds, care & monitoring. The vets were here often but we never really found a cause for his illness. None of the other horses got sick. This went on for weeks & he pulled through. However, after he got better he no longer cribbed (very minimally on only one stall bucket but no longer needed the cribbing collar) & shortly thereafter is when the aggression to other horses started.
> Could the illness with high fevers maybe have short circuited something in his brain which caused the aggression & also stopped the cribbing? He wasn't always mean but when he snapped he snapped.
> Any thoughts? I know it doesn't matter now but he is a mystery.


If he had fevers that high, certainly there could have been some minor brain damage to cause the aggressive behavior. It could have been minor enough that it was never detected, but 'bad enough' to cause some of the aggression. 

OP I am very sorry to hear that all these events happened, and have now decided the horse's fate. I think you are making the right decision, even if it is tough, though. *HUGS* !!!


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## lilkitty90

Natisha. your post about the feelings, gave me chills.

i am very sadden by this post but i do hope something can be found through the necropsy. please keep us updated.

and OP you made the overall best decision for you and any 3rd party. he will finally have his peace.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

I had a gelding that was similar to this one. He wasn't mean to other horses but he was just not 'right' in the head. He wasn't anoxic, he wasn't mistreated, he just .....wasn't. We tried to work with him and tried to get him under saddle. After 6 months, the trainer told me, "I could continue to take your money but I have to say that after 6 months of daily work, he doesn't feel a bit different to get on than he did 6 months ago. I honestly don't think he will ever be ridable.". So I went home to think about what I wanted to do and went back out the next day and watched her work him in the round pen, from the ground. He was fine and dandy for 15 mins and then his ears went flat back on his neck and he charged her, all teeth showing and whites of his eyes glaring. First time I ever saw a horse take after a person. She jumped out of the pen and I told her to put him away or leave him there as she saw fit and I went to call the vet. 

The vet couldn't get out on routine (!) stuff for 2 days and in the meantime I called his breeder to ask if any of her others that were bred that way had ever attacked a human. She said, "Why no!" and I told her what happened and she asked if she could have him back instead of his being PTS. I told her ok it was her neck, and she picked him up the next day. 

I followed her out to her ranch just to see his relations. She had his full brother who was intact and if ever I have met a horse who hated humans and wanted to kill them, it was that horse. He may have never had the opportunity to attack a human (she never handled them, had hundreds of acres) but he sure wasn't going to pass on it if he ever got the chance. Sometimes they are just .....wrong. 

I'm so sorry things ended up this way, but really, it was the best thing to be done for all involved. ((((Hugs))))


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## LoveTheSaddlebreds

Why not just keep him in a private pasture? If he has attacked horses before, I think that would be enough of a red flag to keep him by himself. I don't think he needs to be put down, he just can't be with other horses.


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## Ladytrails

LoveTheSaddlebreds said:


> Why not just keep him in a private pasture? If he has attacked horses before, I think that would be enough of a red flag to keep him by himself. I don't think he needs to be put down, he just can't be with other horses.


If he *ever* injured a person who was handling him or caring for him, the OP would be in so much risk from lawsuits that it is the only option, in my mind, to put him down. There is a lot of concern that a horse with these tendencies would someday turn against a person. Knowing his history, if anything happened the OP would be sued for everything.


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## pettydvm

I had a qh off the racetrack that had the potential to do this. He was awesome around people and awesome to ride. He is now being used to pony babies for breaking and working cows. He is used in parades etc. HE CAN NOT be turned out with other horses. When I first got him off track tried it he took several down by the throat. 3 years later he still cant be turned out with others. Tried it with a gelding he "liked" they did great for 3 months then all of a sudden he almost ran poor guy to death. All I have to do is go to gate and he will come put his head in halter to go the barn.. He likes his stall and he loves people. He doesnt want to be around other horses and he is happy as a lark. I think the years of solitary racetrack life taught him that. I dont know that need to put him down unless he is like that with people as well. Just dont turn him out with others again EVER.


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## herdbound

LoveTheSaddlebreds said:


> Why not just keep him in a private pasture? If he has attacked horses before, I think that would be enough of a red flag to keep him by himself. I don't think he needs to be put down, he just can't be with other horses.


There is only one way to guarantee this horse will NOT hurt other horses. And I think at this point that has been achieved. Sorry for the owners loss and I am sure it hurts but she did the right thing...and I commend her for it.


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## Northern

I'll add my true story to show that the horse who kills may not have anything wrong physically, & may be your beloved partner: When I was a young teen, a group of girls had our horses or rode the BO's horses at a certain barn. One of the horses was an old mare who was ready to give birth, & had been put in a stall for a safe place to do so. She gave birth, then somehow the other horses, who were loose around the small barn, broke down the door & ran the foal to death & perhaps even attacked it, but at any rate, they killed it. The poor old mare was too weak from her labor to get up & defend her foal, but the others'd have overpowered her anyway. The point is: all of the loose horses were "normal"; they were our usual riding horses. There was nothing wrong with the foal, either, so it wasn't a case of a "mercy" killing for the horse gene pool.

Such an event flies in the face of our understanding of horse herd dynamics, but there it is.


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## herdbound

Northern said:


> I'll add my true story to show that the horse who kills may not have anything wrong physically, & may be your beloved partner: When I was a young teen, a group of girls had our horses or rode the BO's horses at a certain barn. One of the horses was an old mare who was ready to give birth, & had been put in a stall for a safe place to do so. She gave birth, then somehow the other horses, who were loose around the small barn, broke down the door & ran the foal to death & perhaps even attacked it, but at any rate, they killed it. The poor old mare was too weak from her labor to get up & defend her foal, but the others'd have overpowered her anyway. The point is: all of the loose horses were "normal"; they were our usual riding horses. There was nothing wrong with the foal, either, so it wasn't a case of a "mercy" killing for the horse gene pool.
> 
> Such an event flies in the face of our understanding of horse herd dynamics, but there it is.


Foals are killed by their mothers too. There are mares that do this everytime. Other horses will kill foals if they get the chance. Stallions are prone to this but other mares, geldings and often the mare who foaled it do it. This is not as abnormal as what this OP is talking about. It is ugly and of course tragic as well BUT it is not as uncommon as you may think.


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## Nitefeatherz

natisha said:


> I'm crying too. I loved that big goober with his bunny ears.
> 
> I was thinking & maybe someone here has some ideas.
> 
> When he first came to live with me he was a cribber & got very sick with horribly high fevers to >106. He required constant meds, care & monitoring. The vets were here often but we never really found a cause for his illness. None of the other horses got sick. This went on for weeks & he pulled through. However, after he got better he no longer cribbed (very minimally on only one stall bucket but no longer needed the cribbing collar) & shortly thereafter is when the aggression to other horses started.
> Could the illness with high fevers maybe have short circuited something in his brain which caused the aggression & also stopped the cribbing? He wasn't always mean but when he snapped he snapped.
> Any thoughts? I know it doesn't matter now but he is a mystery.


High fevers can cause brain damage. High fevers for extended amounts of time can cause brain damage. I've seen dogs and cats who had fevers for several days that were dangerously high come back from the illness mentally "off". One cat was obnoxiously friendly no matter WHAT you did to him- he couldn't seem to help himself. I certainly have seen personality changes in animals because of very high fevers of >105. I would personally believe that fevers could cause such personality changes in a horse although I have never seen it cause aggression.

Brain damage can be so minimal that it is very hard to notice. It's one of the reasons concussions in humans are so hard to recognize.

In terms of euthanasia versus keeping the aggressive horse...there are so many friendly, trustworthy horses out there that need homes that aren't a source of concern that they will hurt anyone or anything else be it human or animal. Despite the fact that emotion can be attached- there is nothing wrong with putting an aggressive animal to sleep and letting yourself develop an attachment to a horse that is sweet, trustworthy, and in need of a home. Serious aggression issues in my book is an automatic no-no. It's not worthy my safety, the safety of others, or the safety of others' animals- it certainly isn't worth the ridiculously high insurance premiums! 

On top of that- insurance for any animal that is known to be aggressive is almost impossible to get when its a dog or cat. Make it a huge animal like a horse and it really WOULD be impossible to get- and if she did she would go broke most likely even if she did find a company willing to work with her.

The whole situation is sad.


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## sillyhorses

We have several horses at our farm who were taken in and we were assured that they were good with other horses. As soon as we see a horse back, kicking, towards another horse without stopping, we separate them, and the aggressor is placed on permanent "solitary confinement". Doesn't happen very often, but when it does it stops your heart to see it. I'm so sorry to hear that your horse was the aggressor, I can imagine how awful you feel. As the first responder posted, we don't turn mares and geldings out together for that reason :/

Edited after reading about your brother being a vet and his position: I do believe that you should consider his $.02, as sad as it is. The horse at our farm who is on "solitary confinement" is actually quite aggressive towards people in a way that his owners don't see (I handle him everyday and would not EVER handle him without making sure I was "on it" for the day). I truly believe that the horse dealer they bought him from "saved" this horse from an auction, for this reason :/ Sounds like the situation with your guy, too


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## sillyhorses

natisha said:


> Just an update. This is the horse & owner I thought it was. I have just talked to her at length.
> This horse lived with me about 3 years & I have seen him attack. Each time I was able to intervene but it was pretty scary & dangerous.
> The owner lives here in WI & sent him to live with her brother in KY in a retirement situation. The brother was warned to not trust the horse.
> 
> This horse is not looking to dominate but to kill & he finally did- a very pregnant mare that he had been out with for almost a year.
> 
> There is no pasture big enough, he takes the inside circle & attacks until the victim horse has no options. He is really good or really bad & there is no known etiology for the bad. He's has had extensive work-ups.
> 
> It is unfair to ask her brother to keep a horse like that. He can also be unpredictable when ridden. A switch seems to go off & you can never tell when it will happen.
> 
> The owner has decided to let him go. This is very hard for her but after 6 years she has tried all she can.


So sad  but completely understandable decision given the circumstances!


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## westerncowgurl

what a sad story, im sorry for u had to go through this, but u did the right thing


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## natisha

It is with a sad heart to inform you that 'he' passed on quietly this morning. This was a very difficult decision on the OP's part & I assure you all options for him were considered.
This is very upsetting for all involved & your compassion is appreciated.
May Elwood find the peace in Horse Heaven that he did not have in life.


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## kitten_Val

I'm very sorry about the whole situation. I'm sure OP did the best in this situation, and I'm totally supportive of the decision.

I was in somewhat similar situation in past, when my paint mare (little 2.5 yo at the moment) attacked a huge teen gelding (the newcomer to the field) that tried to bully the heard. She flew like an arrow, jumped into his opened stall and grabbed the throat where the vein is holding it tighter and tighter like a dog. The gelding was in complete shock: didn't even try to defend itself, was just standing in corner shaking with that little horse hanging off his neck. I've never seen anything like that before or after. I'm not sure what would be the end of the story if I wouldn't run into that stall, grabbed the halter, and she let him go. I was in complete shock too BTW, as well as the gelding's owner (who was just standing there frozen). I moved her to my place soon after (together with my other, very alphish, mare), NEVER had anything like that happened again. They have own brain, so sometime can do something one can't nearly expect.


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## minihorse927

natisha said:


> I'm crying too. I loved that big goober with his bunny ears.
> 
> I was thinking & maybe someone here has some ideas.
> 
> When he first came to live with me he was a cribber & got very sick with horribly high fevers to >106. He required constant meds, care & monitoring. The vets were here often but we never really found a cause for his illness. None of the other horses got sick. This went on for weeks & he pulled through. However, after he got better he no longer cribbed (very minimally on only one stall bucket but no longer needed the cribbing collar) & shortly thereafter is when the aggression to other horses started.
> Could the illness with high fevers maybe have short circuited something in his brain which caused the aggression & also stopped the cribbing? He wasn't always mean but when he snapped he snapped.
> Any thoughts? I know it doesn't matter now but he is a mystery.


I actally have a good friend who had a gelding who did the same. He was perfectly fine for 4 or 5 years and he got sick. Fevers of 101 to 106 for almost a week, unknown reason. Vets were out over and over but after that week was up, there was something "different" with that horse. That boy was one I normally would have trusted with my life and the day I went there and she said, the fever is gone, I seen him. He looked fine. I got a bad feeling, like he just hated to be alive. Within the next couple months he was attacking other horses and she separated him from the others, but then he started to turn on her. It ended when he had to be shot while he was trying to attack another person and had them cornered in a spot where there was no way they could get out. It was our only option as he was going to kill her father.


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## wyominggrandma

Sometimes you just can't fix a problem.... It could be genetic, environmental, it doesn't matter, it can't be fixed.
The OP did what needed to be done for the safety of herself, her family and any other horses around this guy. Sure, you could have kept him confined alone forever, but there is always the chance he might get loose and kill another horse, or really "break" and kill a human.
I am sorry this happened to the OP, but she made the correct decision in this scenerio. My thoughts are with you and your family.


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## ButterfliEterna

RIP Elwood. 

May you now take your place as the wings on the OP's back -- look after her from your place in Heaven and protect her when you can. <3

My friend got a call from her dad at 6 AM in January, 2012. Her main gelding was down and barely breathing... The vet was called for euthanasia when she realized that no amount of frantic crying/demanding/pleading was going to make him rise. He told her, "I'm surprised that he's still alive, because his pulse is very weak." She cried even harder when it hit her that he was staying around for her. As he went to sleep, she held his face on her lap and half-heartedly asked to be buried with him. (First horse.) He had a stomach impact and essentially starved to death... 

I told her that when she's riding her other geldings, to find peace in the fact that her "main man" is watching out for her, and that he'll forever be her wings. She still gets the feeling that he's with her, so hopefully it's a bit of comfort for the OP. I'm sorry for your loss.


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## Stan

Fever could have been the cause.
Many children have mental issues due to fever, it does cook the brain. I know of one, now 55 plus was struck down with the measles, high temprature and from the age of around 10 years needed intervention in the form of specialist care. He would just loose it and become violent having to be restrained untill he calmed. Before he became ill, he was a normal child.

My wife was his care giver for a number of years and on ocassion we would take him on a holiday. I never turned my back on that man as his violence could erupt at any time.

My point is, it happens to humans and it must happen to all animals. We all have a temperature range our bodies work best in, to go over that range causes at times perminent brain damage. As does poison, drugs and lack of vitamins and minerals, then of course there is the just plain nuts.

I feel for the person who has to make the decision to put the horse down but given the information that has deen disclosed it would be the right decision for man and horse. 
Put the horse in the ground in its favourite paddock for it may not have always been a rouge, it may have got sick at some time and the result was imballance.


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## karebear444

I'm sorry that you have to be in this situation and I'm sure it's difficult. I believe putting him down would be the best thing to do. He's proven himself unpredictable and I agree with others he has probably had a very traumatic past, but it would be best to let him go so he can be at peace.


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## karebear444

Also wanted to mention that my boarding stable will not put mares in with mares. They don't mind putting geldings with geldings and mares with geldings, but they refuse to put mares with mares. They say they will fight too much. My mare is always pastured with a gelding or geldings spring through fall. I haven't had any problems, but now I'm starting to wonder if maybe that's not such a good idea.


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## ButterfliEterna

karebear444 said:


> Also wanted to mention that my boarding stable will not put mares in with mares. They don't mind putting geldings with geldings and mares with geldings, but they refuse to put mares with mares. They say they will fight too much. My mare is always pastured with a gelding or geldings spring through fall. I haven't had any problems, but now I'm starting to wonder if maybe that's not such a good idea.


Karebear,

We have two mares and two geldings... They get along just fine. The bay gelding is on top no matter what, although the bay mare tries to squirm her way up there every so often. (Hierarchy: Gelding, Mare, Gelding, Mare.) When Texas goes, they all go. I think that their individual personalities have a lot to do with herd compatibility too... If you have a bunch of laid-back horses, they should be fine together. We have a rescue gelding who is sweet as pie to humans and on the ground but extremely spooky under saddle. He loves the mares and they love him. The only time we've witnessed any of them fight is when the "higher" mare decides to pick on the lower.


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## minihorse927

ButterfliEterna said:


> Karebear,
> 
> We have two mares and two geldings... They get along just fine. The bay gelding is on top no matter what, although the bay mare tries to squirm her way up there every so often. (Hierarchy: Gelding, Mare, Gelding, Mare.) When Texas goes, they all go. I think that their individual personalities have a lot to do with herd compatibility too... If you have a bunch of laid-back horses, they should be fine together. We have a rescue gelding who is sweet as pie to humans and on the ground but extremely spooky under saddle. He loves the mares and they love him. The only time we've witnessed any of them fight is when the "higher" mare decides to pick on the lower.


I will also say at my house I turn geldings and mares out together, they do fine and it does have a lot to do with how compatible their personalities are. I turn all my mares out together also and the only fighting that ever goes on is between the two lower mares on the totem pole, and the worst they ever do is try to bite eat other in the knees and go round and round doing that for about 3 minutes and then everything is fine again.


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## CLaPorte432

I have 2 geldings and 1 mare and they all get along great. No issues during feeding time. The herd order is gelding, mare, gelding. We've had up to 11 horses, mixture of geldings and mares and have never had an issue.

The top gelding, when we have a new horse, will assert his dominance for about a day and then all is good. The new horse learns his spot and it's done. Yearlings and under, he doesn't mess with-he actually will babysit/protect them. 2 year olds and older, he'll teach them. There is a mare that I'll be leasing for 2012, they've met a few times, but when they are pastured together, he's good as gold. There is no squealing, kicking, biting, touching, nothing. It's like they've lived together for years. 

It all depends on the horses.


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## karebear444

Goodbye Elwood. Sorry that your life on earth wasn't so great and by the time you got to people that cared about you so much damage had already been done. Only you know what horrors you faced in life. I hope you now are free to roam the green pastures of horse heaven free of pain and without a care. To the OP, I'm very sorry for your loss. He may be gone, but you can hold on to the good memories.

Stories like this break my heart for so many reasons. I really wish that every horse out there would breath it's first and last breath in a loving home. I also wish that people wouldn't breed horses just because they can or for profit. So many of these horses wind up abused, neglected, tortured or in slaughter houses. If I could change the world I would, but for now I'll just keep praying about it.


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## karebear444

ButterfliEterna said:


> Karebear,
> 
> We have two mares and two geldings... They get along just fine. The bay gelding is on top no matter what, although the bay mare tries to squirm her way up there every so often. (Hierarchy: Gelding, Mare, Gelding, Mare.) When Texas goes, they all go. I think that their individual personalities have a lot to do with herd compatibility too... If you have a bunch of laid-back horses, they should be fine together. We have a rescue gelding who is sweet as pie to humans and on the ground but extremely spooky under saddle. He loves the mares and they love him. The only time we've witnessed any of them fight is when the "higher" mare decides to pick on the lower.


Thanks this makes me feel better. My mare is normally top dog, but she isn't mean. A few sniffs and squeals and they know what's up.


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## yourcolorfuladdiction

herdbound said:


> I am saddened by this story because it really speaks volumes about being "proactive" in our decisions about horse owner responsibilities. If this horse had been oxygen deprived I feel the best and most humane thing is to put them down ASAP. I feel that if these behaviors had been witnessed for several years a long time ago this horse should have been put down to avoid the tragedy that unfolded and has lead to his destruction now. I do not muck around with aggression in an animal that is that large...be it towards other animals or worse humans. The whole thing is just tragic, more so because the entire incident could have been avoided...by putting an end to the beginning 18 years ago. Sad.


I just want to note that there is no reason to put down an oxygen deprived foal, you just need to educate it from a young age and not let it learn bad habits. Some of them get along just fine and are happy little horses doing whatever you ask. Others can be monsters. I feel like if you say "put down every oxygen deprived foal" that's like saying you should put down mentally handicapped children :/ when most of them are harmless with care and training. It's that 1% that become like rabid agressive dogs that need to be put down because they are a danger to themselves and others.

I'm sorry that the OP had to make such a difficult choice, but I agree that she made the right one. Unfortunately, not every horse can be "saved".


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## Stan

yourcolorfuladdiction said:


> I just want to note that there is no reason to put down an oxygen deprived foal, you just need to educate it from a young age and not let it learn bad habits. Some of them get along just fine and are happy little horses doing whatever you ask. Others can be monsters.
> I feel like if you say "put down every oxygen deprived foal" that's like saying you should put down mentally handicapped children :/ when most of them are harmless with care and training.
> 
> There is a distinct diference between oxygen depraved foal and mentally handicapped children.
> The main point is with children it can be reasonably assessed how much brain dammage there is and the level of care needed. Some who have what may be described as minimal mental disruption, not in care, are turning up in the penal system and is it their fault, or ours for getting the assessment wrong in believing they can take care of themselves.
> 
> Then those in residential care, Some are violent some not but one needs to have worked with them to get a clear understanding what they are capable of, then of course those wheelchair bound. But most are being managed and society kept safe.
> 
> My point is we can reasonably assess the damage to a human as they develop and treat as such to keep society safe. Generally in the first five years a human child can not do much physical damage to an adult.
> 
> How does one assess the brain damage done to a horse and when it reaches 1000 pounds and hurts its owner or another animal do we then say it was brain damaged at birth. AT 6 months a kick from a horse is going to at the least, hurt.
> 
> My humble opinion is if there is reasonable cause to believe the foal has brain damage at birth then safety must take presidence over feelings.


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## Tayz

Im so sorry to hear this and the part where you said you could feel him thinking 'iwant to kill you' gave me chills too. 
I'm so sorry for the gelding, that whatever happened and he lost his way, may he find peace wherever he is now. 
I'm sorry for the mare that was killed in result of this tragedy, your life was cut short, god needed you up in heaven and I'm so sorry for the little foal in her tummy that never got to take its first breath. Run free in heaven with your mummy in a safe world where none shall harm you.

Such a tragedy, 3 lives lost, heartbreak :'( I really do feel the need to say sorry to all that were involved. You will be in my thoughts and prayers tonight.


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## yourcolorfuladdiction

Erm for a very long time people didn't know what mental retardation was. Actually the town idiot was a mentally handicapped person who was looked after and cared for by the town and was welcome in every home. At that time all they knew was that as the child began to develop it wasn't quite "normal". So the people took extra time to raise and educate the child and most grew up to live normal lives.

It's the same thing with horses. Acknowledge the horse may have a developmental issue because it was deprived of air at birth. And instead of putting it down, start educating it on its manners from birth. If you throw it out in a field and leave it alone for 3 years, yes you will have a dangerous horse but if you dedicate your time to raising the foal correctly with consistent rules that the foal has to follow, there is no reason you can't raise a good horse. Granted if you're not going to put the time and effort into training the foal from birth I would suggest putting it down because you will be sparing the foal a long life of hardship. But it's not hard to train a foal before it learns dangerous behavior. 6 months is waiting way too late for a foal from these circumstances.


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## Stan

yourcolorfuladdiction said:


> Erm for a very long time people didn't know what mental retardation was. Actually the town idiot was a mentally handicapped person who was looked after and cared for by the town and was welcome in every home. At that time all they knew was that as the child began to develop it wasn't quite "normal". So the people took extra time to raise and educate the child and most grew up to live normal lives.
> 
> It's the same thing with horses. Acknowledge the horse may have a developmental issue because it was deprived of air at birth. And instead of putting it down, start educating it on its manners from birth. If you throw it out in a field and leave it alone for 3 years, yes you will have a dangerous horse but if you dedicate your time to raising the foal correctly with consistent rules that the foal has to follow, there is no reason you can't raise a good horse. Granted if you're not going to put the time and effort into training the foal from birth I would suggest putting it down because you will be sparing the foal a long life of hardship. But it's not hard to train a foal before it learns dangerous behavior. 6 months is waiting way too late for a foal from these circumstances.


yourcolorfulladiction. I disagree with your belief mentally disabled live normal lives. My experence comes from a wife who spent several years as a care giver to mentally and physically disabled which inturn gave me first hand experence and myself am a probation officer and see and have to deal with those that don't think like you and I, and they are not living normal lives.

Some physically disabled granted, live a life in society but are still being monotered by an agency to assist when required. On the whole they are the few.
Back when the village idiot was looked after by the village he/she was not treated by his pears as an equal but as a point to laugh at. In some societies deformed and impared children were disposed of at birth. A number would die because medical science had not the knowledge to keep them alive through the early years. 

Teaching a mentally disabled human child to behave and make quality decisions is not a given, because they can become viloent at the drop of a hat and all the teaching goes out the window, or if their routine changes they often can not deal with it and then will act out, Again out of control

So back to the horse if one considers the training from an early age but can it be relied upon to enable the owner to bring it back under control I think not. 

If I look at my horse Stella and consider her mentally normal. I have been able to bring her under control when she spooks. However at 16 hands and part clydesdale she is a very strong horse and I have no doubt in my mind if she was abnormal I would have to put her down as she would be a ticking timebomb. And that is what a horse that is suspected to have brain injury is, a ticking timebomb.

Stella is my avatar 
Savannah has the saddle on. Both strong and opinionated horses.


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## herdbound

yourcolorfuladdiction said:


> It's the same thing with horses. Acknowledge the horse may have a developmental issue because it was deprived of air at birth. And instead of putting it down, start educating it on its manners from birth. If you throw it out in a field and leave it alone for 3 years, yes you will have a dangerous horse but if you dedicate your time to raising the foal correctly with consistent rules that the foal has to follow, there is no reason you can't raise a good horse. Granted if you're not going to put the time and effort into training the foal from birth I would suggest putting it down because you will be sparing the foal a long life of hardship. But it's not hard to train a foal before it learns dangerous behavior. 6 months is waiting way too late for a foal from these circumstances.


I have worked with oxygen deprived animals who were spared death at birth. In my opinion all the owners have done is prolonged the inevitable. The ones I have had the displeasure of working with have been aggressive above normal levels. There is no place for aggressive horses in the world...they are far far too dangerous and unpredictable. You can take all the time in the world to teach them different but their brains are different. They react irrationally and extremely aggressive for no fault of the human and I guess sadly, not really any fault of their own BUT they are still prone to behavior that can make them extremely dangerous and yes even deadly. I just think it's best to just end something before it begins. The same applies for horses like Arabians born with Cerebrial Abiotrophy why subject the poor thing to a life of confusion and lack of coordination? My sister ended up with an arabian afflicted by this and she tried very hard for 6 whole years to give her as normal of a life as possible but in the end it was this disorder that eventually claimed her because she fell over a hill and impaled her rear end on a log. Sometimes mother nature knows best. Horses have the purpose of keeping it's human "safe" if it is going to be undependable and even aggressive towards humans and other animals it is just best to put them down or instead of blowing them back, just let them pass away...shows more compassion to me to do this in the beginning, than to wait several years until something bad comes of it.


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## InStyle

Since we don't know what caused the horses aggression, they are all guesses. No one ever said/or knows the horse was deprived oxygen at birth. 

The horse having a fever for a prolonged time, we do know. And I have seen cases of animals becoming aggressive after such fevers. 

To the OP, you made the best decision, and you are in my thoughts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## herdbound

InStyle said:


> The horse having a fever for a prolonged time, we do know. And I have seen cases of animals becoming aggressive after such fevers.
> 
> To the OP, you made the best decision, and you are in my thoughts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree 100%...I would say the fever had something to do with it. I would also like to say that by sharing this experience with us the OP has given everyone a wealth of information from her unfortunate experience with this animal that may help others...so maybe something good can come of it.


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## hoopla

Lots of interesting pontification and speculation going on but last I saw of the OP's postings, she'd taken the difficult decision to have the horse humanely put down and to save risk of any other injury or accident.

I notice she'd said that her brother was a vet and so perhaps he will out of interest ensure a PM is undertaken to check for anything that might have been a root cause and other than this being "just" a serious and catastrophic behavioural thing.


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## natisha

hoopla said:


> Lots of interesting pontification and speculation going on but last I saw of the OP's postings, she'd taken the difficult decision to have the horse humanely put down and to save risk of any other injury or accident.
> 
> I notice she'd said that her brother was a vet and so perhaps he will out of interest ensure a PM is undertaken to check for anything that might have been a root cause and other than this being "just" a serious and catastrophic behavioural thing.


That was discussed but I don't know if it happened.


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## yourcolorfuladdiction

herdbound said:


> I have worked with oxygen deprived animals who were spared death at birth. In my opinion all the owners have done is prolonged the inevitable. The ones I have had the displeasure of working with have been aggressive above normal levels. There is no place for aggressive horses in the world...they are far far too dangerous and unpredictable. You can take all the time in the world to teach them different but their brains are different. They react irrationally and extremely aggressive for no fault of the human and I guess sadly, not really any fault of their own BUT they are still prone to behavior that can make them extremely dangerous and yes even deadly. I just think it's best to just end something before it begins. The same applies for horses like Arabians born with Cerebrial Abiotrophy why subject the poor thing to a life of confusion and lack of coordination? My sister ended up with an arabian afflicted by this and she tried very hard for 6 whole years to give her as normal of a life as possible but in the end it was this disorder that eventually claimed her because she fell over a hill and impaled her rear end on a log. Sometimes mother nature knows best. Horses have the purpose of keeping it's human "safe" if it is going to be undependable and even aggressive towards humans and other animals it is just best to put them down or instead of blowing them back, just let them pass away...shows more compassion to me to do this in the beginning, than to wait several years until something bad comes of it.


At what age did you start working with these horses? I'm of the Buck Brannaman school of thought, and I doubt you'll change my mind. He and I both believe that if you start young enough you can help these horses. But if you don't start young there is nothing you can do.

I've had the pleasure of working with some oxygen deprived horses that were raised properly and they were sweet and happy horses, neither agressive or unpredictable.

Also, Stan please don't lecture me on psychology I am very well versed thank you as that's what my degree is in  (i also never said that mentally disabled people live normal lives).


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## herdbound

yourcolorfuladdiction said:


> At what age did you start working with these horses? I'm of the Buck Brannaman school of thought, and I doubt you'll change my mind. He and I both believe that if you start young enough you can help these horses. But if you don't start young there is nothing you can do.
> 
> I've had the pleasure of working with some oxygen deprived horses that were raised properly and they were sweet and happy horses, neither agressive or unpredictable.
> 
> Also, Stan please don't lecture me on psychology I am very well versed thank you as that's what my degree is in  (i also never said that mentally disabled people live normal lives).


I love and believe in Buck, Tom Dorrence & Ray Hunt's methods btw  But I also believe in mother nature...and when an animal is deprived of oxygen it does damage to their brains. That is irefuteable and the damage is permanent. Looking at a baby you cannot tell to what degree that damage has been done...no one can. I believe that it is best to just end the life then and there. I know in the movie Buck they have that wild palomino stallion who is sent away and the owner says she is going to put him down just because he is too dangerous. I wanted to beat that woman within an inch short of her life because even more so than his "being blown back" SHE was his biggest problem. I do part ways with you though on the fact that they all turn out ok IF handled correctly. No. There are horses who have damage to areas of their brains that just make them "unstable"...and it is not their fault I understand that...they are only doing what they are wired to do. I just believe that it is best to not blow back foals. Let them pass on. I feel it only prolongs the inevitable and you are playing russian roulette with what you are going to get a few years down the road.


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## herdbound

And I also would like to say that this woman is probably suffering for her loss and this may not be the time nor the place to argue about our personal beliefs on this subject. You are not going to change my mind and I am not going to change yours so we should be gracious and agree to disagree...if you would like to debate it further please feel free to IM me or we can leave it at that. I do not want to cause her anymore grief than necessary.


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## FWDequine

Just a little more info about my horse to clarify.......
I purchased him when he was about 12 years old. He was a rescue horse that a woman saved from one of her relatives along with another horse, an Arab. She told me that it took her 1 year to get my Saddlebred back to health. She sent him to a barn to be used in a lesson program, but she said "He did not earn his keep" so he was sent back to her. We knew absolutely nothing else about his past. This woman was honest when she said he needed an advanced rider. I took a trainer with me and the barn owner I knew at the time with me to check out the horse. (By the way the barn owner's vet was the person who told us about this horse for sale. The vet was the one who had got this horse back to good health.) I rode him and I loved him. He needed work on his canter, but the trainer assured me that it cound be fixed. We all thought he had the willingness to learn. At the 1st barn, he didn't show aggression toward the other horses, but he would kick in his stall so much that he even kicked the wall down that separated his stall form the next one. The barn owners were very angry-I don't blame them. (I had been at this barn for 11 years with my previous Saddlbred that died of cancer.) Within 6 mon I had moved to a place with a huge stall and the horses were placed outside much longer druing the day before they were brought in. This seemed to work for awhile, until the barn owner would run out of hay to feed the horses and medications/supplements were not given to horses etc, so I moved to barn #3. Here is when he got the 106 degree fever for no reason at all. This is Natisha's barn. She took awesome care of him. He started the severe attacks that were witnessed by the barn owner. I tried another barn ...barn #4. He was great the first 3 months no problem. They knew what he had done in the past-I told them. They didn't believe it based on what they had observed....Then out of the blue...He attacked and the barn owner said she had never seen anything like it. I had to leave. Natisha offered to take him back...I went back to barn #3. She had him in his own paddock. Occasionally, some of my rides on him were challenging. Then Jan 2011, I came out to let me loose in the arena..it was too cold to ride. I could tell he was in his "bad" mode. The second I let him loose in the indoor arena, he went ballistic and kicked and missed my head by inches-another boarder saw it and said, "You've got to do something about that horse". (I should have released him with him facing me not on the side of him-my mistake.) So that is when my brother said , "Let's just let him be a horse, bring him down by me". Please know- I had a lot of great, wonderful rides with him-more so than bad. My brother had him in a separate pasture at first. As they observed him, he showed no aggression. They loved him! They noticed he was a nervous horse, somewhat hyper at times, but showed no aggression. So, they tried him with 10 of their mares. They watched very closely and things were fine. In the pecking order, he was low man on the totem pole. For over a year-no incidents!!! Then last Friday out of the blue....it happened. My sister in law was there. She saw it from start to finish. She ran out to try to intervene but couldn't stop it. The mare he killed was the buddy he hung around with. She was a wonderful mare! I don't get it. I still can't believe it . All of us are in a coma here. Out entire family and extended family is just so saddened. He was so beautiful and he could be so good. He just had the darn "switch". One thing for sure is he taught me to be a much better rider.

Thank you all again for your information and kind words. This forum is therapy for me in helping me learn and deal with this.

Love, Elwood's Mom


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## herdbound

Well it sounds to me that in every situation as soon as he felt "comfortable" and had adjusted his "bad side" came shining through. And as far as blaming yourself for him kicking at you because you didn't release him from the front...that is nonsense. You should be able to let go of a horse any which way you want without fear of it kicking at you. From that post all I can say is thank God this was a horse he attacked and not a human, it sounds as if he "tolerated" people but didn't really respect you. I truly am sorry for your loss...you could nit pick the "what if's" and "whys" for the rest of your life BUT please don't blame yourself for this. I don't feel as if you did anything wrong, you were probably just hoping this would pass...but honestly I don't think it would have and you did the right thing. Feel no guilt about it. You tried very hard to give him a good life but I would say the fever may have escalated an already "bad" situation.


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## canteringhearts

I do personally agree with herdbound. It sounds as if he grew comfortable in a new place and then the "switch" happened. But whatever the case with this horse (oxygen deprived, fever, etc.) someone's best friend was lost. Therefore, Eldwood, rest in peace. I hope you find better contentment over rainbow bridge. I'm sure that little mare up there forgives you  You were loved despite your faults, and that is all some horses want despite their flaws. He knew what being loved meant, after being in abuse. "Switch" or no, that good side did shine through every once in awhile so we should also acknowledge that.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

So sorry OP :-( What a horribly difficult decision to have to make, but rest assured, you made the right one.  And I'm certain your horse appreciates it...as others have mentioned, this wasn't the place for him, I'm sure he is SO much happier across the Rainbow Bridge in Heaven now


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## rossinante

*Leave him be*

It is sad as death but a horse is a horse. They do according to their instinct. I would keep him on his own in a paddock with a hedge and a high electrified fence. You cannot put him down further to a human mistake: you knew he was aggressive. I would only say stay strong and blame yourself


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## herdbound

rossinante said:


> I would only say stay strong and blame yourself


I hope to God that is a typo. For Christs sake how rude if not. Are you kidding me?


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## newhorsemom

What a tragic situation and I'm very sorry for your loss. I'm sure you made the right decision, as difficult as it must be. Be kind to yourself and try not to second guess your choices - you did what was best no doubt. Sending healing thoughts your way.


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## ButterfliEterna

"I don't feel as if you did anything wrong, you were probably just hoping this would pass...but honestly I don't think it would have and you did the right thing. Feel no guilt about it. You tried very hard to give him a good life but I would say the fever may have escalated an already "bad" situation."

^^ I'm with Herdbound on this. As an owner/friend and "mom" )) you tried to make it work. The hours and trust were put into Elwood. I'm sure he loved you to the end for accepting him regardless of his flaws. Sometimes, that's all that anyone can ask for. Good job, FWDequine. You tried. <3


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## sillyhorses

I'm so sorry. Thank you for elaborating. I swear your gelding sounds just like the one at our barn, exactly with lucky miss of a hoof to the head when turning him out  The owners bought him from a horse dealer, and they asked that we turn him out wroth their two mares (if other peoples horses were involved, we never would have agreed to put mares and geldings together). After about four days, he attacked the dominant mare, and we were able to separate them. We didnt see what started it, wer just heard the squealing and ran out to investigate), but regardless, he wouldnt stop and we were lucky to separate them. We knew, at least, that he would be a dominant horse, so we turned him out with a gelding who wouldnt challenge him. The first 45 minutes went well, then the docile gelding approached the water tank, about 30 feet from the gelding whom I'm talking about. As soon as the docile one lowered his head, the aggressive onge charged, mouth agape and ready to bite. The docile gelding tried to run, but the other one just wouldnt stop, he spun and backed, 
kicking at top speed, with kicks that were clearly 
meant to kill. 
Luckily, no one had more than some freshly shaved hair by the time we separated them. The aggressive gelding has since spent his days in a sixty got round pen with ten foot pipe walls, and gets turned out privately in one of our three acre paddocks when weather permits. I always have to be careful, even though I turn him to face me, he spins and kicks with lightening speed. I've taken to leading this guy through the gate, turning him, stepping out of the gate and reaching through - at least this way, he'd kick the gate on his way to me. The elderly owners need to get rid of him.

He came here, from the dealer, with a crazy thick fever ring around all fours. I wonder if this is related to his crazy behavior? Many days, he is a pleasant gelding with a fun personality on the ground. A bit crazy under saddle, but rideable by experienced riders... And scares me to death. I hope nothing worse happens :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha

rossinante said:


> It is sad as death but a horse is a horse. They do according to their instinct. I would keep him on his own in a paddock with a hedge and a high electrified fence. You cannot put him down further to a human mistake: you knew he was aggressive. I would only say stay strong and blame yourself


Really? Foliage would be your answer? All the medical testing, treatments, training, changing life styles etc. that were tried & all he needed was a bush. Silly us.
(this is as nice as I can be to your statement)


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## wetrain17

I just came across this thread. I am so sorry you had to go through this. Just remember you did everything you could have done to help him.


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## SEAmom

I'm so sorry for your loss. Solace can be found in that he is no longer "stuck in his head".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Western Gal

This horse has cornered others in the past it ha not escalated and if it were mine I would sadly have the vet put it down. with it being this aggressive I would be afraid it would go through fences to get to others etc. This is a dangerous animal to everyone it sounds like it has snapped. So sorry about our brothers horse how terrible.


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## trafo

I think, from what has been written in the first post, there is no sufficient information available to make the final decision on putting the horse down. Please don't judge horses by human standards. Killing in the human society is a very different event from forceful death in an animal herd. No horse would kill another horse on purpose, as it often happens with humans. Most likely it happened by accident - a kick to a vulnerable spot (nerve endings, vital organ etc), but hardly by persistant and systematic beating with intention to kill. It is not in herd animal's nature to beat another herd animal of the same species to death with intention. If so, putting down the other horse would be stupid at least. However if a different scenario took place, for instance, if the horse went psycho, then of course the picture is completely different. Just please figure out first what really happened and how it happened, and only then make the final decision.


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## Western Gal

trafo said:


> I think, from what has been written in the first post, there is no sufficient information available to make the final decision on putting the horse down. Please don't judge horses by human standards. Killing in the human society is a very different event from forceful death in an animal herd. No horse would kill another horse on purpose, as it often happens with humans. Most likely it happened by accident - a kick to a vulnerable spot (nerve endings, vital organ etc), but hardly by persistant and systematic beating with intention to kill. It is not in herd animal's nature to beat another herd animal of the same species to death with intention. If so, putting down the other horse would be stupid at least. However if a different scenario took place, for instance, if the horse went psycho, then of course the picture is completely different. Just please figure out first what really happened and how it happened, and only then make the final decision.


You have never seen a stallion fight with another stallion or with a gelding. The fight is vicious and meant to kill. Mares will kill another protecting. And some horses just turn vicious towards other horses and humans.


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## trafo

Western Gal said:


> You have never seen a stallion fight with another stallion or with a gelding. The fight is vicious and meant to kill. Mares will kill another protecting. And some horses just turn vicious towards other horses and humans.


I don't think it's meant to kill. I know - it may look like that through the human eyes, but it is just because human judgement is always made from within the human perception. And human perception is that a human would hardly survive such a fight with 1000lb animal. Horses may have different perception there.


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## Jake and Dai

Western Girl and trafo, please read the entire thread. The decision has already been made and carried out.

My deepest condolences OP...I admire you for your strength.


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## Kayella

So sorry for your loss, but it was the best thing to do for him.

As for the people saying, "Pasture him alone and plant some bushes," that's just ridiculous, no offense. A horse is a herd animal by nature, it's in its blood to run with other horses. And you think confining that horse for the rest of its life is better than putting him down? That horse is no longer a horse. It can't run free like it should, it can't experience the togetherness of a herd like it should. It would only know silence, loneliness. And, who's to say it wouldn't try to reach other horses by crashing through fences, causing horrible damage, and possibly a very painful death. And the horse did have a history of being aggressive with humans. If you want to seclude that horse completely, fine. Go feed it by yourself in a large, open field. Then tell me if secluding the horse would be the best choice for him.


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## natisha

Kayella said:


> So sorry for your loss, but it was the best thing to do for him.
> 
> As for the people saying, "Pasture him alone and plant some bushes," that's just ridiculous, no offense. A horse is a herd animal by nature, it's in its blood to run with other horses. And you think confining that horse for the rest of its life is better than putting him down? That horse is no longer a horse. It can't run free like it should, it can't experience the togetherness of a herd like it should. It would only know silence, loneliness. And, who's to say it wouldn't try to reach other horses by crashing through fences, causing horrible damage, and possibly a very painful death. And the horse did have a history of being aggressive with humans. If you want to seclude that horse completely, fine. Go feed it by yourself in a large, open field. Then tell me if secluding the horse would be the best choice for him.


When he lived by me he was in his own area with shared fences, he even had his own large pasture. He still kicked at others through fences. Sometimes he would be in the open by himself & savagely kick at nothing.

Without giving gruesome details I can say that an event that lasts 15 minutes & ends with the death of one & no injury to the other is not a squabble with a well placed kick but an untentional killing.


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## MacabreMikolaj

trafo said:


> I don't think it's meant to kill. I know - it may look like that through the human eyes, but it is just because human judgement is always made from within the human perception. And human perception is that a human would hardly survive such a fight with 1000lb animal. Horses may have different perception there.


There are MANY documented cases of horses killing with a blatantly obvious intention to kill. A horse that is threatening will stop when the victim stops moving. A horse out to kill will continue long after the victim has passed. Yes they are a prey animal, that doesn't mean they are above killing. It is fairly common knowledge that a wild stallion is quite possibly the most dangerous of all prey animals due to their inclination to fight to the death as opposed to just wounding the victim. They know exactly how to go for the throat to strangle, which I think is almost unheard of in most prey animals. There is a very popular video showing a stallion doing just that to a wounded foal. The intent is blatantly obvious in the video.


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## Kayella

natisha said:


> When he lived by me he was in his own area with shared fences, he even had his own large pasture. He still kicked at others through fences. Sometimes he would be in the open by himself & savagely kick at nothing.


Could it possible he suffered from hallucinations? Maybe the fever he suffered affected his brain in such a way.


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## DressageDreamer

We had a mare attacked by a gelding. The mare was mine and the gelding was my son-in-laws. We were all boarding together. He didn't kill her, but it wasn't because he didn't try! He ended up tearing a large chunk of flesh off her rump that took a lot of work to heal. We found out later that he had become blind in one eye and partially blind in the other. It had happened suddenly. Whether this had something to do with it, we are not sure. He was traded for another horse, with full disclosure of the incident. 
I feel very sorry for you!! I know it broke my heart to see my mare injured (and she wasn't even a nice mare). God bless you!


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## Kayella

MacabreMikolaj said:


> There are MANY documented cases of horses killing with a blatantly obvious intention to kill. A horse that is threatening will stop when the victim stops moving. A horse out to kill will continue long after the victim has passed. Yes they are a prey animal, that doesn't mean they are above killing. It is fairly common knowledge that a wild stallion is quite possibly the most dangerous of all prey animals due to their inclination to fight to the death as opposed to just wounding the victim. They know exactly how to go for the throat to strangle, which I think is almost unheard of in most prey animals. There is a very popular video showing a stallion doing just that to a wounded foal. The intent is blatantly obvious in the video.


Such an incident happened at the neighboring stables a few years ago. My friend's horse was just a foal at that point, and a boarder's appy stallion, who is usually a dead head, attacked the foal. He would have killed the foal if my friend's mustang mare, who is not the dam, had not protected the foal.


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## KissTheRing

*Didnt Read all the Posts

Remember that if he can do this to another animal- When will he do this to you or another loved one.

Sorry about this situation =( If it were my kid, I would have him put to sleep. Even though I love him more than the world. 

Note that it is inhumane to keep a horse by itself- Their a social animal- Being kept by themselves for long period of time will cause them to lose even more sanity.


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## natisha

natisha said:


> When he lived by me he was in his own area with shared fences, he even had his own large pasture. He still kicked at others through fences. Sometimes he would be in the open by himself & savagely kick at nothing.
> 
> Without giving gruesome details I can say that an event that lasts 15 minutes & ends with the death of one & no injury to the other is not a squabble with a well placed kick but an untentional killing.


'intentional'


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## brackenbramley

Elwoods mum my heart goes out to you, im sorry for what you and Elwood and your family and there mare has gone through, you have showed nothing but love for him and he was lucky he found someone who tried to help and heal him, you could not have done anymore, you did the kindest thing for him and the safest. rest in peace Elwood x big love to you OP xxxx


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## natisha

brackenbramley said:


> Elwoods mum my heart goes out to you, im sorry for what you and Elwood and your family and there mare has gone through, you have showed nothing but love for him and he was lucky he found someone who tried to help and heal him, you could not have done anymore, you did the kindest thing for him and the safest. rest in peace Elwood x big love to you OP xxxx


I don't know about the OP but you sure got me crying again. Thank you for the kind words & understanding.


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## FWDequine

Yes, I miss him terribly! I still feel as if I am in a "coma" from this whole thing.

Thank you everyone! I have learned so much from all of you!


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## FWDequine

I also feel such sadness for my brother in the loss of his mare. I talked to him yesterday and he told me that putting down my horse was extremely difficult for him. He is such a strong, calm person, but I can tell that he feels horrible.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

There's no doubt, that's a very difficult thing to go through. But rest assured, you gave him a gift by putting him down, and your brother should know that as well. The horse was not at peace in this world, for whatever reason, we may never know why. But the bottom line is that you gave him the gift of releasing him from "his own head" as another put it, and that's the best you could ever have done for him. I know he's happy now, running free with his herd in Heaven across the Rainbow Bridge, and if you've never read that poem, I think you should...

Hoofbeats In Heaven - "The Rainbow Bridge For Horses"


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## Cacowgirl

Such a sad thing-OP-you did all you could & I wish that your heart becomes lighter soon. I feel for your brother too-because of his mare,the loss of the foal, & he knows that you are suffering because of all this. It's tragic to all involved & horrifying to those of us that love horses. So sorry this happened.


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## dirtroadangel

My heart goes out you.
You did what you had to in a very difficult situation. It sounds like you put alot of work and bonding into that horse to bring him around. Which makes it so much harder.
Probably the only happiness he had really had.in a long time.
But remember it could have been so much worse with you or a loved one getting hurt.
He is free now in the end you and your brother gave him this final gift
You and your brother are in our prayers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2muchcoffeeman

FWDequine said:


> Just a little more info about my horse to clarify.......
> I purchased him when he was about 12 years old. He was a rescue horse that a woman saved from one of her relatives along with another horse, an Arab. She told me that it took her 1 year to get my Saddlebred back to health. She sent him to a barn to be used in a lesson program, but she said "He did not earn his keep" so he was sent back to her.


Hindsight being 20/20 and all that ... This is my stopping point with the whole sale process until somebody with the lesson program who was directly involved in the situation tells me _how_ "he did not earn his keep," and in great detail. That and the stall-kicking incident lead me to believe his violence problems predated his fever.


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## franknbeans

I would suggest that it may be time for the mods to close this thread out of respect for the OP. People are not reading, especially as it gets longer, and are making posts that, if I were the OP, I would find offensive and hurtful.


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## sillyhorses

Agreed, frankbeans
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spirit88

franknbeans said:


> I would suggest that it may be time for the mods to close this thread out of respect for the OP. People are not reading, especially as it gets longer, and are making posts that, if I were the OP, I would find offensive and hurtful.


I agree this thread needs to be closed by mods people arent reading it from start so have no clue whats going on. The last post before franknbeans i find would be very hurtful if i was the op.


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## FWDequine

I think you are right...How do I get the mods to close this?


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## spirit88

FWDequine said:


> I think you are right...How do I get the mods to close this?


I guess i would pm one of them and ask them to close thread.


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## iridehorses

I agree that it has run it's course and it's time to close it.


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