# Is Fjord dun the same genetics as other dun?



## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Tobiano can carry frame. Sire looks like a Gypsy? As far as I know, frame is rare in Gypsys. Neither the sire or your made look to he carrying it, but that is not a gaurentee. 

Are you planning to breed her? I'd be pretty confident calling her a bay tobiano(maybe splash too).


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

subbing


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## Uze (Feb 23, 2013)

ApuetsoT said:


> Tobiano can carry frame. Sire looks like a Gypsy? As far as I know, frame is rare in Gypsys. Neither the sire or your made look to he carrying it, but that is not a gaurentee.
> 
> Are you planning to breed her? I'd be pretty confident calling her a bay tobiano(maybe splash too).


Just realized I forgot to put the sires breed. He's a Drum (50% Shire 50% Gypsy). What are the "tell-tale" visual signs that a horse may have frame? I know of the paw prints, which neither the sire nor my filly have. 

No I am not planning to breed her, at least not right now. She's under three years old lol.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

I don't believe Shires carry frame either... The sire is hard to tell because of the degree of white on him. Frame likes to restrict leg white and put top heavy blazes on them. Plus the standard doesn't cross the top and jagged(but not sabino jagged) markings.


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## Uze (Feb 23, 2013)

ApuetsoT said:


> I don't believe Shires carry frame either... The sire is hard to tell because of the degree of white on him. Frame likes to restrict leg white and put top heavy blazes on them. Plus the standard doesn't cross the top and jagged(but not sabino jagged) markings.


Is it just quarter horses/paints that carry frame? Also, I hadn't thought of my filly being bay but I guess it's possible, do bays come in really light shades like that, with the dorsal stripe? (even though she has a ton of white, she does have a dorsal stripe through the brown part.) I thought that with the very light brown color and stripe she was dun. But it's possible she is bay? Now that I think about it, is it impossible for her to be dun, since only one parent was dun?


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## Uze (Feb 23, 2013)

She still has her winter coat, but even with that her stripe is very crisp and defined


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Oh, yeah. She's dun. Not bay. 

I was still in bed when I wrote that. 

Not just paints/qhs, but predominantly. Minis, tbs, appys, walkers, ect carry it too. From fmy understanding, if it is a "North American" breed it has a good chance of carrying frame.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Fjord are generally homozygous for dun so all of their offspring will inherit dun.


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## Uze (Feb 23, 2013)

ApuetsoT said:


> Oh, yeah. She's dun. Not bay.
> 
> I was still in bed when I wrote that.
> 
> Not just paints/qhs, but predominantly. Minis, tbs, appys, walkers, ect carry it too. From fmy understanding, if it is a "North American" breed it has a good chance of carrying frame.


Oh, haha. I was wondering if I was wrong the whole time lol! 

So what do you think I should test for? This is what all they can test for.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

If she was mine, I wouldn't bother testing. But if you want to... Frame, maybe splash for fun. The others we can pretty much figure out ourselves. We know she can only have one copy of Tobiano, one copy of dun, one copy of agouti. Red/black is unknown. If the agouti test was still available it would he cool. Dam looks wild type.

E?, Aa, Dd, Tt.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

As already posted, agouti, dun and tobiano are known, all heterozygous for those. Only unknowns are if she is heterozygous or homozygous for black. 

If by chance she inherited frame (not in fjords but since dad is a mix and does have a wider horizontal part of his blaze by his eyes there is a very slim chance that something got passed down but it is unlikely as it is rare in Drums and there are other genetics that can mimic the look of small frame expressions). 

Maybe test for splash, but remember that there are more mutations of splash that are not yet identified but she looks to be displaying some splash pattern. 

So, if you really want to, you could test for extension (black/red), splash and frame.


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## LadyChevalier (Apr 19, 2013)

From what I've seen all fjords are homozygous for dun. Otherwise we would see blacks, chestnuts, and bays. However their terms to describe them are different. Like they call Black based with no agouti for bays "Grey Dun" when the rest of the world would call them grullas. "Brown dun" are bays. "Red duns" are obviously chestnuts. And then there are "white" anf "yellow" which are horses with certain lack of pigmentation but im not sure what the exact genetics for those would be. Im not sure if they can carry the cream genes that would result in the yellows but i havent seen a cremello fjord so guessing not. The dun dilutes in fjords tend to be very strong which is why you see such light coats on almost every fjord but the genetic dun marker is the same for say a dun quarter horse.


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

As others have said, definitely dun & tobiano, though if you are going to test I would test for black as well. 
Do you have more photos? Does her mane & tail lighten or darken at all? The foal the mare has at her side in the photo appears to me to be a red dun, which means that the dam would be a carrier of red. As to whether she passed it onto your filly it is hard (I find) to tell from that one photo. Being essentially bay dun, that particular fjord color would hide any red, same goes for the sire, as black is dominant. 
I wouldn't rule out sabino either, as it affects every horse differently and her markings are quite jagged and irregular around the edges. Frame, as the others have suggested, doesn't seem likely.
Splash maaaybe...
Oh! and not that it matters lol but just some interesting info.., Fjords do carry the cream gene, though as with the dun gene it affects them a little more extremely than it would other breeds, which results in the white dun (buckskin dun), yellow dun (palomino dun) and the "kvit" which is basically a cremello or potentially perlino, though quite rare as it is undesirable within the breed registry. Not unheard of though.


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