# ERMAHGERD my horse is a dun



## Shui Long (Apr 12, 2014)

I've always wondered, what *is* countershading?? If the hair is a genuinely different color on the stripe compared to the rest of the body, does that mean the horse is a true dun, or is it not that simple?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Unfortunately it isn't that simple Shui Long! Nobody actually knows for certain what causes countershading but there are multiple theories running around and it doesn't seem to be genetic. Some horses have it, others don't, and it really doesn't appear to have anything to do with bloodlines at all.

Countershading can resemble true dun markings so completely that I have been shocked in the past that a particular horse has tested negative for the dun gene! One in particular that really sticks in my head was a buttermilk buckskin. For all the world he looked dunskin. Strong, crisp, clear dorsal stripe, heavy leg barring, heavy shoulder barring, darker face, you name it. But he was tested for curiosity's sake [because during his short career as a stud stallion he never once sired a dun foal] and proved to be negative.


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

Dun is a diluting gene, so if the horse above was a true red dun, the entire body would be lightened and the dark red of her real true color would be restricted to the face, legs, mane, tail and any other primitive markings associated with dun.
All too often people think that the defining characteristic of a dun is the dorsal, so any horse with a dark line down their spine MUST be a dun. They get so confused when you try to tell them that it's not that simple..


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## Shui Long (Apr 12, 2014)

How confusing! !
_Posted via Mobile Device_ I mean, it is rather confusing for me.


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## Among the Stars HorseShow (Feb 26, 2014)

lilruffian said:


> Dun is a diluting gene, so if the horse above was a true red dun, the entire body would be lightened and the dark red of her real true color would be restricted to the face, legs, mane, tail and any other primitive markings associated with dun.
> All too often people think that the defining characteristic of a dun is the dorsal, so any horse with a dark line down their spine MUST be a dun. They get so confused when you try to tell them that it's not that simple..


Agreed definitely not dun. I'd say Countershading


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

It stuns me that even as obviously sarcastic as I was being people still don't get that this thread is a joke. The dun gene isn't even IN Thoroughbreds.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I know a mare named DunDeal. She had some shoulder shading and counter shading, but was NOT a dun.

You can KINDA see it in this vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9e4bgS-9zQ

Also i totally got his as being a joke XD!


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## Shui Long (Apr 12, 2014)

Any sarcasm totally flew over my head - I didn't know that the dun gene doesn't exist in TBs. Well, it actually does ring a very vague bell, but if I've read it once before and have forgotten it then I'll probably do it again!  I'm not a color geek. 

This reminds me of the Oscar Wilde saying about sarcasm being the highest form of humor and the lowest form of wit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

That mare is definitely brown KQ. Definitely. I would put money on it. Why anybody would think she's dun [yes, even considering her primitive countershading] is beyond me!

It seems those who "got" the joke are people who know me from the forum from before my hiatus and those who didn't don't know me because they've joined since my computer died [now repaired  ] don't really get it?

This thread is so out of character for me [I actually AM a colour geek haha I would never think a TB was dun] that anyone who knows me will instantly assume it's either a joke or a troll has hacked my account, and since the horse I'm using as my example is featured prominently in my avatar, more likely the former.


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## Shui Long (Apr 12, 2014)

No harm done. 

I only joined in because I've been wondering if the horse I'm part leasing is a dun as well as a buckskin... he's got a stripe but I've no idea if it's a true dorsal stripe or countershading. Next time I'll leave the color threads to the color geeks! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

No don't do that, there's so much to learn from colour threads! Most of what I know I learned from here.

There is unfortunately NO definitive way to say "yes this horse is definitely dun not a primitively marked pale 'whatever'" without genetic testing, because countershading can so completely replicate the appearance of dun. Usually only on a horse that's already diluted, but it will occasionally do it on a pale chestnut or bay.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

^ Its cool and a dun will have leg barring, a slightly darker face, face "cobwebbing" and a PROMINENT stripe. But as blue said, genetic testing is the only way to know 100%

Here are dorsal strips




















This is counter shading


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

KQ, I say there's no way to know for SURE because I have seen an incredibly prominent dorsal on a bay [it was nearly black] and another on a buttermilk buckskin [it was dark buckskin, I thought he was dunskin and so did his owners until they got him tested!]


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

As i said they only way to be 100% positive is testing. Its GENERALLY easy to tell but not always. Its to the point that im skeptical of a "dun" unless i see leg barring.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

When you guys want to identify dun remember that Dun is not just primitive markings it's a dilution. So when you see a possible look at the coat color. It should have a diluted muted tone. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shui Long (Apr 12, 2014)

Thanks for those pics, kigerqueen.  I can definitely see a difference there! ! The boy I'm leasing is far more like the countershading pics. The stripe fades out on the edges.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Blue eyed pony I was fairly sure you weren't serious but I'm still trying to figure out who the heck Erma H. Gerd is. LOL


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

To be fair, as I just posted a new thread about, the dun test up until now wasn't 100% reliable because it only detected whether the locus where the dun gene is located was occupied, but not whether the specific gene was present. So some horses that had a definite dun phenotype occasionally tested negative. In mention of the buckskin that tested negative, he could have been one of these false negatives; however, since you mentioned he never sired a dun foal, it's possible he actually was just very countershaded or just ridiculous odds that he never passed that gene onto his foals.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

His stud career was short Po, he only stood for three seasons to limited mares. Then he was gelded so that he could be shown by his actual owner, a 16 year old.


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