# Final straw...advice needed from Barn owners



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Maverick101 said:


> I confronted her about it...thinking she had an appointment or emergency...she out right lied to my face:shock:.


She LIED to you and you didn't boot her off the property that very second? Where is your _spine_, woman? :?

Suck it up, put on your big girl panties, go dig around in your closet and under the bed for your spine, then let her know that she no longer has a job, and exactly WHY.

Do you somehow think if you tell her some stupid, banal reason for letting her go that she WON'T turn it around on you? Get a clue; she's lazy, a liar, and will _of course_ try to make it all your fault, regardless of the reason you give her for firing her.

I can't even _believe_ you'd consider putting up with with her and just 'dealing with it'. When did 'nice' become synonymous with 'cowardly'? :-x


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## Jamzimm101987 (Aug 11, 2011)

The horse community is the same everywhere whether big or small. Truth and rumors spread like wildfire. I have a friend who runs a business and she puts up with way too much from working students, boarders, etc. The way I see it, it should be like this for all: the person messes up once, talk to them, the second time, a verbal warning, the third time, they're out.

If you just suck it up and deal with her you're only going to make yourself more unhappy and possibly the boarders also. If things aren't getting done the way they're supposed to be getting done, your clients may be upset and then you take the chance of losing them.

Let the girl go, but be honest as to why you're doing it. Write it all down on paper as to what you're going to say to her. Read it a few times and get it in your head. Whether the horse community is small or large in your area one person spreading rumors should not matter if you run an efficient business where the animals, boarders, and property is well cared for. 

If your boarder that is friends with the worker gets upset because you let her go, be honest with her as well. If she decides to move her horse, then that's her problem, but if she is a good person and listens to your reasoning, she should understand. 

I have witnessed keeping employees that are a headache...some advice is that they don't get any better. They are who they are.

Good Luck!


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## ilovemyPhillip (Apr 4, 2009)

I think you should just do it. Walk out to the barn "You have two weeks notices to find another job. We no longer need you here."
I bet a teen would happily do the job in exchange for free riding, and they would do it with more efficiency.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

ilovemyPhillip said:


> "You have two weeks notice to find another job. We no longer need you here."


Nope, no two weeks notice. _Immediate_ termination. That's the way it works in the corporate world if you're caught lying or stealing, so why should it be any different in the horse world?

Plus, that's such a wimpy thing to say. Better is, 'Get out. You've been slacking off and lied about it, and I don't need that kind of person around my barn'.


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## Jamzimm101987 (Aug 11, 2011)

ilovemyPhillip said:


> I think you should just do it. Walk out to the barn "You have two weeks notices to find another job. We no longer need you here."
> I bet a teen would happily do the job in exchange for free riding, and they would do it with more efficiency.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would not give her a 2 weeks notice. That could result in some serious hell from the worker. IF she shows up to work, I would foresee things definitely not getting done, tack going missing, etc. If you're going to fire her, do it on the spot.


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## ilovemyPhillip (Apr 4, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> Nope, no two weeks notice. _Immediate_ termination. That's the way it works in the corporate world if you're caught lying or stealing, so why should it be any different in the horse world?


I thought you had to give a notice. Oh well, fire her on the spot then! I would never lie or sneak with my boss. I am lazy, I do everything she asks of me, but I don't always go above and beyond..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

I agree. Don't suck it up. It's not fair to anyone. My thing is... It seems kind of easy going for the girl that lives on your property and boards her horse for free.....Why not make her pick up a weekend day? Especially if she has to help to catch up the work someone else didn't do anyway.


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## Jamzimm101987 (Aug 11, 2011)

ilovemyPhillip said:


> I thought you had to give a notice. Oh well, fire her on the spot then! I would never lie or sneak with my boss. I am lazy, I do everything she asks of me, but I don't always go above and beyond..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Usually it's the worker who gives notice if they are going to quit. It's the nice thing to do. Depending on the situation, the employer may give notice, but for issues like these notice is not a good idea.


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## outnabout (Jul 23, 2010)

If she lied to you, she has without a doubt lied to others. Take the high road, fire her appropriately, and good luck finding someone else. Her reputation will speak for itself, and yours will, also.


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## Maverick101 (Nov 8, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> She LIED to you and you didn't boot her off the property that very second? Where is your _spine_, woman? :?
> 
> Suck it up, put on your big girl panties, go dig around in your closet and under the bed for your spine, then let her know that she no longer has a job, and exactly WHY.
> 
> ...


Wow tell me how you really feel lol!:lol:

I did not fire her on the spot for one and one reason only....I myself had not witnessed the event...(granted I doubt my husband would lie to me about her taking off for 3 hrs)...but it was hear-say....I won't go in to detail about the words exchanged between us...so sorry you can not call me cowardly or know what size of panties I had on at the time:wink:.....as you do not know the what words etc was exchanged in that confrontation.

The only reason I _would_ put up with her is due to the fact of trying to find help just for weekends is very hard (or at all for that matter)....and I do want to stay w the system now of having my weekends free. She does work well w the horses Il give her that much, its just she seems to think certain tasks are beneath her so to speak, and either does them half *** or avoids them all together....these tasks arent for the well being of the horse per say, but are jobs we do to keep the barn clean, and organized, and if not done 2 days in a row, can def make more work for other staff.

I do know that she wont be w me much longer, as I truly wouldn't be able to put up with it for the long haul. I just know how fast one person can wreck the reputation of a barn in our area....it took almost 3 yrs for a local stable to shake off the rumors one disgruntled worked spread...they lost 15 boarders as a result, and also found it very hard to attract anyone else.....
That being said, I do know I will let her go, it just a matter of when.....and yes it will be sooner then later trust me.

_Shutupjoe_...The amount of hours my full time girl does (m-th) is more then enough to pay off her board trust me...she is the type of worker that goes above and beyond...her duties go beyond just cleaning barn etc during the week. She rides and helps train many of my horses when I cant find the time, she coaches some of the boarders here (unpaid), she even drove combine for us the other day when we needed an extra body. Trust me she is that Gem of a worker that now a days is hard to find...I keep telling her she is never allowed to leave:lol:
She also needs money to live lol....so she works a weekend job elsewhere to help pay bills.....so I don't think I need to make her pick up a day on the weekend when she already works more then enough hrs during the week.

Phillip....she is a teen (17 turning 18).

I have scheduled her to come in for tomorrow at which time Il be letting her go....she is a part time employee, I don't have to give her any notice.....as both my full time worker and my self had a discussion about it today and we both know we wouldn't be able to put up w it, as the longer she has been here the worse it has gotten...even after having been told to pick up boot straps. So I will be back to working 7 days a week again until I can find a replacement.....sigh

What happened to the days when people actually worked hard, and had good work ethics:?:


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I'd fire her immediately, you really don't even need to get into the whys - just tell her that you no longer need her services and she should leave your property and not return.
It's something that you are going to have to get used to, as you run a business.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

Whys are what get you in trouble, In Virginia there are a whole list of reasons you cant fire someone, BUT it is perfectly legal to fire someone for no reason at all, At the end of her work day just tell her her services are no longer required. period, end of discussion, no ifs whys or buts, It isnt relevant. DOnt even say anything else, other than please leave now. Then walk away. You have to be ready and willing to fire someone before you should hire someone. I cant imagine putting up with it for more than a week much less 6 months,


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Now that I have a better understanding why not try asking around your boarders to see if someone wants to work off board?


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## Jamzimm101987 (Aug 11, 2011)

Maverick101 said:


> I just know how fast one person can wreck the reputation of a barn in our area....it took almost 3 yrs for a local stable to shake off the rumors one disgruntled worked spread...they lost 15 boarders as a result, and also found it very hard to attract anyone else.....


I find it quite alarming that a barn lost 15 boarders as a result of one person. There were obviously deeper issues. Here's how it goes for me: If I'm happy I stay, if I'm not I leave and while I do listen to what others have to say, most of it stays at that. Obviously these boarders were more than unhappy and for more than just one reason.


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## Maverick101 (Nov 8, 2009)

I will get into the whys...I do think people need to hear what skills they are lacking esp when they are younger, I would hope it makes them better workers somewhere down the line.....that may not be the case, but I do know if I was ever fired (never have been in my lifetime) Id want a reason why.

I guess that's why I gave her the benefit of the doubt for so long, figured she may shape up if pointed out w constructive criticism what she wasn't doing properly.
But the more I think about it the more I do need to let her know why she is being let go, as jst sending her on her merry way isnt helping anyone in the grand scheme of things.


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## Jamzimm101987 (Aug 11, 2011)

Maverick101 said:


> I will get into the whys...I do think people need to hear what skills they are lacking esp when they are younger, I would hope it makes them better workers somewhere down the line.....that may not be the case, but I do know if I was ever fired (never have been in my lifetime) Id want a reason why.


TRUE THAT!!! 

Reasons are important. Whether the worker has been a great one or a crappy one, we all deserve a reason(s) as to why we're being let go. How can one ever expect an individual to improve if they don't know what they did wrong?

Oh sure, they probably have a pretty good idea, but they need to hear it from the employer.


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## Maverick101 (Nov 8, 2009)

Jamzimm101987 said:


> I find it quite alarming that a barn lost 15 boarders as a result of one person. There were obviously deeper issues. Here's how it goes for me: If I'm happy I stay, if I'm not I leave and while I do listen to what others have to say, most of it stays at that. Obviously these boarders were more than unhappy and for more than just one reason.


I will not go into detail about this barn or the particular person and what rumors were spread....but I know the barn Owner personally, and what this ex employee said happened would make you get up and go.....


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## Shenandoah (Aug 9, 2010)

Maverick101 said:


> I just know how fast one person can wreck the reputation of a barn in our area....it took almost 3 yrs for a local stable to shake off the rumors one disgruntled worked spread...they lost 15 boarders as a result, and also found it very hard to attract anyone else.....


Rumors are always a risk, and difficult or impossible to control.
However, earlier you said "her not being able to finish a simple task of watering our outdoor horses."
Having one person going around saying you're "mean" or whatever for firing her is a lot better than having ALL your boarders going around saying their horses don't have water (or whatever other tasks she's skipping out on).
Remember, her work (or lack of it) reflects directly on YOUR reputation.


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## Ali M (Mar 28, 2011)

Thinking tasks are beneath you can _sometimes_ be cured with some constructive criticism, but the SECOND that water buckets are not refilled is when I would fire them on the spot. That's when it becomes dangerous for your horses to have her around, even if she does work well with them. I'm glad you're going to let her go. For me it would be worth it to work the extra hours and know my horses are well taken care of, especially having their water. I really hope you find someone to replace her soon so that you can get your time off again at some point in the future.

And don't worry about her spreading rumors, it happens in the horse world all the time and especially when there is a disgruntled employee involved.


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## Maverick101 (Nov 8, 2009)

Joe4d said:


> Whys are what get you in trouble, In Virginia there are a whole list of reasons you cant fire someone, BUT it is perfectly legal to fire someone for no reason at all, At the end of her work day just tell her her services are no longer required. period, end of discussion, no ifs whys or buts, It isnt relevant. DOnt even say anything else, other than please leave now. Then walk away. You have to be ready and willing to fire someone before you should hire someone. I cant imagine putting up with it for more than a week much less 6 months,


I dont know how I did either:shock:

I guess its because it didn't start out that way, she was good, it just slowly started sliding...I gave her the benefit of the doubt on an occasion or two...as lets face it we all have bad days... but when the excuses out weighed reality, that's when I started to get frustrated, and as the title says I hit my final straw


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## Maverick101 (Nov 8, 2009)

I should clarify the water...the horse were not OUT of water...yes then Id have said see ya!....It takes a long time to fill one of our outdoor water troughs, so we try to stay on top of it every other day or so as then it will take 10 min to fill opposed to 30. I had asked her to fill it on the Sunday....this was not done, so come Monday it was much lower then it should have been, just creating more time spent topping it off....but her attitude was one of they have water so no need to top it off....
This is where she blamed it on the boarders using the hose that she couldn't fill it....


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## Carleen (Jun 19, 2009)

Hoping she leaves without causing trouble.

I too have heard of disgruntled ex-employees spreading nasty rumours about barns (all over Craigslist).

On the positive side, now that school is back in I am sure there are many High School or Post Secondary students looking for weekend hours - myself included. (Happen to be in my area?  ) And I am sure many of these are willing to work off board, riding time, etc. If you would rather provide that over cash.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

If you haven't already, I would provide a letter with her final paycheque that explains you no longer require her services. Since you want to help her (not that it will actually work by the sounds of it though), you could add a paragraph of constructive criticism suggestion how she might improve at her next position. I would shy away from putting in writing exactly WHY you are terminating employment. This does a couple of things: if it's stapled to her paycheque you KNOW she's got the letter. 2. it covers your reputation if anyone hears the wrong story 3. without actually firing her for poor work ethic formally, you don't risk wrongful dismissal. She probably wouldn't have the brains or motivation to do that, but mommy might...

As for notice -- in Canada the requirements for employer and employee notification periods differ by province. I suspect it is the same in the US. Here, there are lots of situations where the employer/ee does or doesn't have to provide notice. It just depends... Typically, if an employer is in a situation where the employee must be given a notice period and the termination is negative, the employer with give pay in lieu of notice because the employee will cause problems if they are allowed to remain on the job.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> Nope, no two weeks notice. _Immediate_ termination. That's the way it works in the corporate world if you're caught lying or stealing, so why should it be any different in the horse world?
> 
> Plus, that's such a wimpy thing to say. Better is, 'Get out. You've been slacking off and lied about it, and I don't need that kind of person around my barn'.


 She is in Canada, we have different laws. Yes, you can fire someone immediately after lying or stealing etc, however, because she didn't fire her immediately, in the eyes of the Labour Board, she accepted that behavior. But this is not a problem anyways, as she is a parttime employee, there will be no severance in lieu of notice. Simply tell her you are not happy with her work and you no longer require her services. Her friend & your boarder will make her conclusions. I would think she would be choked because her horse wasn't watered on one occassion. You need to find someone reliable as I would be very mad if my horse wasn't watered by your employee, and I am sure I am not the only one who would feel this way.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Waresbear, it does not matter if the girl is part-time or full time regarding right to termination notice. The only place in Canada that applies is in NT. However, length of employment does matter. 

Maverick, if you want to know the legislation, PM me and I will give you the requirements for your province.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

The comments about big girl panties I believe come from the silly list of never ending reasons (excuses) why you do not want to let her go.

The horse world is full of rumors.
Period.

Boarding and training, even at great barns, tends to be very cyclical. 
If this girl does not start a rumor that causes a couple of people to leave there will be something else down the road that will cause a couple of people to leave and a lull before some new people come.

Why keep a bad employee because you are worried about a rumor? 

The type of people that will leave or will not come because of a rumor are the type of people you really do not want anyway.




Jamzimm101987 said:


> I find it quite alarming that a barn lost 15 boarders as a result of one person. There were obviously deeper issues. Here's how it goes for me: If I'm happy I stay, if I'm not I leave and while I do listen to what others have to say, most of it stays at that. Obviously these boarders were more than unhappy and for more than just one reason.





Maverick101 said:


> I will not go into detail about this barn or the particular person and what rumors were spread....but I know the barn Owner personally, and what this ex employee said happened would make you get up and go.....


Um no. I doubt it. I have to agree with Jamzimm. I make my staying with a boarding barn/trainer decisions based on my experience, not rumors. 

Plus, when a rumor does come around you have to take into account where it is coming from.


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## kctop72 (Aug 25, 2011)

Good Luck with your conversation with this person. You've thought it through, prepared yourself and hopefully will go off without a hitch. In case you haven't already, document the times you have previously discussed improving her performance/work ethic with her (when and what) just for your records and it will help in your conversation with her. I think it's great you are still trying to help her by providing reasons so she can improve in her next position.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

What ever happened to good workers you asked? There are good workers, don't get me wrong, but it seems lots of teens believe that the world owes them something and they should be paid for the bare minimum. 
Even some adults are that way and its sad. I used to bust my behind working as a teen and now working as an adult I do the same. I tend to tire myself o ut now covering and working for the few that feel they are "princessess" and shouldnt have to do more than the bare minimum.
I am in a job now that I am about ready to quit, have worked for this same vet for over 8 years this time, and over 10 years at another time. I just recently got a raise after 8 years(working part time) because they "couldn't afford it" yet the two younger girls get paid more than I do for the same work. I have always covered days for them, been there on call, etc and basically let them use me. I have since decided that I will no longer do this and tomorrow will be a make or break day for me. We will see what happens.
I am a good worker and will give 100% for someone, yet it seems the ones that give 50% get the benefit of the doubt. UGH


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Joe4d said:


> Whys are what get you in trouble, In Virginia there are a whole list of reasons you cant fire someone, BUT it is perfectly legal to fire someone for no reason at all.


Virginia is an 'at will' work state, so you can be terminated for a whole list of things, or nothing at all. 

If an employer is terminating for _cause_, then yes, they have to state the reasons and they'd better have written backup. Sexual harassment, stealing, etc. are all cause for termination, but need backup.

Letting someone go because the situation/person just isn't working out is something else again. You can even terminate when downsizing, reorganizing, or eliminating a position. 

That 'at will' thing works for employees, too. If they don't feel the job is right for them, they can legally terminate their employment without notice, and there legally can't be any repercussions from the employer.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Jamzimm101987 said:


> I find it quite alarming that a barn lost 15 boarders as a result of one person. There were obviously deeper issues. Here's how it goes for me: If I'm happy I stay, if I'm not I leave and while I do listen to what others have to say, most of it stays at that. Obviously these boarders were more than unhappy and for more than just one reason.


It does happen. I recently found out ONE person was the reason I lost several boarders. I also found out that since that person has since been asked to leave, some of the former boarders are interested in coming back.

To the OP - the only reason you need "I'm sorry it's not working out. Here is your final paycheck. Good bye".


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

If a boarder bad mouths to me my first tho't is how far behind in their board are they. If an employee bad mouths to me my first thought is lazy and not doing their job. It's the same as loaning someone money. When they don't pay you back when they should, you're in the wrong and they will bad mouth you all over the country, spreading untruths.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I own a boarding barn and have an employee. I try to use only the local college students, especially those in the veterinary program as they are more mature than your average student. That's worked out very well for me so far. When they are hired we go over a list of things that are required for the job and then as we walk around the property I go over a list of 'my pet peeves' with them to let them know that while a certain thing might not light them up it will send me over the moon and so they are told up front what to especially NOT do. Lying in my face is one of the 'not only will it get you fired instantly but it will get you escorted off the property forthwith and you better not leave anything behind' items that gets discussed. 

I had a high school kid who was totally ACES but she really got too comfortable here and being "My Barn Girl and Assistant" is just not a good lifetime carreer choice so I encouraged her to look at jobs with better pay and benefits. That worked for about 6 months and now she wants to come home......LOL! That can be just as bad for a good employee as having a bad one. 

I'm sure you've fired her by now and hopefully things will go well. As a teen, I'm hoping she'll be so embarrassed about being let go that she'll just keep shut and say something like there just wasn't enough work when she's looking for her next job.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

mls said:


> It does happen. I recently found out ONE person was the reason I lost several boarders. I also found out that since that person has since been asked to leave, some of the former boarders are interested in coming back.


This sounds like more of a case that one boarder was annoying the other boarders, not one boarder hate for you causing them to leave.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Hope it went well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maverick101 (Nov 8, 2009)

Thought Id just update....sorry been crazy busy and havent had much time to lurk around the forum.

I did have a meeting w the employee. We had quite a lengthy chat about things. She clearly wasnt happy about my decision, but I think she realized that I wasnt just blowing smoke, that my reasons for letting her go were legit.....I mean how can ya not, when you're not doing your job.
Her father seemed more upset then her, (he of course called me after our meeting and gave me an earful).....I told him that unless his daughter gets a better work ethic, he better get used to making phone calls to ex-employers.

I have recently found another person to do my weekends until I can find some one for the long haul....He is a family friend who is in between jobs, so it worked out well for us both at this time.

I don't like having boarders work off board, as it gets dicey w hours worked etc, so I'm avoiding that route at the moment. I do have some interviews lined up for next week, so lets hope one of those pan out.


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## raywonk (Jan 9, 2011)

I agree with the working off board. If a boarder wants to work I rather pay them and then when there board comes time they can pay me back. I just think that is easier that way. I have and still do sometimes work for my lessons or board but that is the way this barn wants it done. So I go with them. I just think when you loose the actual exchange of money things seem to go south. I am in that situation now and have decided to send my horse to an old friend to end the problem.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> Nope, no two weeks notice. _Immediate_ termination. That's the way it works in the corporate world if you're caught lying or stealing, so why should it be any different in the horse world?
> 
> Plus, that's such a wimpy thing to say. Better is, 'Get out. You've been slacking off and lied about it, and I don't need that kind of person around my barn'.


I fired someone like that. She pulled up, I told her I didn't need her, she asked if she was fired, I said, "Yeah, you are." She shrugged & went for a ride. She worked for discount board.
Jerks know they're jerks, they are seldom surprised they are being fired.

A warning about hiring teens. Unless they have their own car they are at the mercy of parents to give them rides. Life happens & when they don't show up or you get late notice you're stuck doing things in a hurry.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Maverick101 said:


> Her father seemed more upset then her, (he of course called me after our meeting and gave me an earful).....I told him that unless his daughter gets a better work ethic, he better get used to making phone calls to ex-employers.


Well, I think that says something about where she gets her work ethic from. :wink: Glad you have found some help in the interim and good luck with the interviews.


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## waddle04 (Oct 4, 2011)

In regards to finding good help its almost impossible. They will never do as good as a job as you will. My parents and I are barn owners and I cant tell you how many people we have had through the 25 years we've been in business. People mistake kindness for weakness and I feel your grief when you say it just makes more work for you. My advice is just to be honest with her and thats that. 

Bad part is that the work we want them to do isnt *Glamorous* so we tend to attract the same *deadbeat* people.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

waddle04 said:


> People mistake kindness for weakness


Isn't the the truth!


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Good thoughts on this thread. Consider your horse business to just be a business. in 2008 DH and I began operating his small business, a Law Office. He has taken in an associate, who he has known for a decade, and she shares the space--we HAD a third desk, already--shares the rent, practices and they cover court for each other when there are conflicts. When the economy improves we intend to take advantage of working in a university town and hiring several college students for a minimum of hours, and one semester at at time. I don't care for trading off (working off all or part of board) bc I have found (over my 30 years) that I get less and the help gets more.
What you should watch for is that your help thinks they can tell you how to do things. As was suggested earlier, having a turnover can alleviate this. If the help belives that the replacements are waiting for their job, they will behave better. Working at a stable isn't the same as cleaning up lavatories in a bus station. There is some glamor associated with it, deserved or not. Lucky for the OP, not ALL of the help is a problem.


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