# What Bad Riding Habits REALLY Bug You to See?



## waresbear

Heavy hands holding a horse with it's neck inverted. Looks horrible.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Yanking the horse around by its face to turn. Horses aren't a soft chair to sit on.. still gotta do things with your seat and legs, people!!

Or arching their backs while riding... it just looks painful! 

Or the "zombie" arms while riding, instead of having them back to open your chest up, they're floating infront almost at chest level.. drives me crazy.


----------



## Tayz

At the moment because I have done so litttle riding over past 2 years i've noticed my feet, where it used to be they were tuck in right with heels down, now they are out, though luckily heels still down. Then i have a bad habit with elbows forward but when i start riding again will be working on that lol!


----------



## MLShunterjumper

waresbear said:


> Heavy hands holding a horse with it's neck inverted. Looks horrible.


I agree


----------



## Skyseternalangel

And you're right about the puppy paws.. makes them look like they have broken wrists!!


----------



## Amlalriiee

"chair seat"....especially an exaggerated one, it just doesn't make any sense to me as far as trying to balance!


----------



## Chiilaa

See-sawing to get a horse to drop its nose...


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

The nagging, spur-in-the-horses-side-every-stride, constantly pulling riders.

The horse always looks frustrated or "turned off"... Drives me nuts! If people could just sit and do nothing but follow the horse I wonder how fast they would figure out the horse will do the work!!


----------



## tinyliny

I was just going to say what Anebel said; the heel/spur in the side every stride.

Or, in the case of lunging a horse, the constant flipping of the whip and clucking nonstop, even thought the horse is already going nicely.


----------



## xVannaIsLifex

I've never seen this person ride, but I've heard stories of her. My friend know someone who rides with jockey-length stirrups and pumps her arms at every gait. She's gotten better at not flopping around in the saddle. If I saw her ride, I'd throw my shoe at her to make her stop -___-


----------



## Gilly

People who don't have their heels down. I can just see a foot going through the stirrup or someone getting caught as they fall...

I admit sometimes I have trouble during trot to canter transitions (I haven't being in the saddle for six months and I only have six months of lessons BEFORE I injured myself and just fixed the habit ) but seeing people, especially kids, doing it just grinds my gears.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Prinella

Riders especially at shows who clearly have no concept of moving with their horses mouth. So instead pile on the gadgets and take them off just before a class yanking and see sawing on the horses mouth if the head comes up. 

Or worse those that the horses remain hiding behind the bit and they think that's great!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SorrelHorse

I hate it when people brace against their horse and cause them problems, bouncing around, etc. Also when people have their hands up like they are riding a motorcycle (particularly bad with gaming horses, ugh.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Saranda

When people do posting trot by balancing themselves with hanging in the reins. Yuck.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

xVannaIsLifex said:


> If I saw her ride, I'd throw my shoe at her to make her stop -___-


That would probably cause more harm than good... at least she's moving with her horse and not standing there like a statue.

THAT drives me crazy (as I alluded to before)


----------



## DancingArabian

A few things bug me..

Riders without helmets
Babies on horses
Flopping around in the saddle
Flapping arms
Chair seat
The wildly flapping legs
Huge cues (I know some horses really do need a pony kick but jeez!)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EvilHorseOfDoom

Most of those mentioned previously, plus:

- Hyperflexion - aaaaaaargh!!
- People who over-ride the saddle like its meant to...ehm...please them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## heymckate

LOL, I'm sure I've been guilty of a few of these that people have listed over my lifetime..

For me, yanking back and kicking at the same time. On what planet does that serve a purpose?

I guess it's not a riding habit necessarily, but using a harsher bit simply because it's easier, not because it's necessary.

Jumping with toes down. It doesn't bug me when someone's heels slip up a bit (mine do on occasion), but with toes blatantly pointed down... ugh. So unsafe.

No release whatsoever over jumps.

Unnecessary spur use.

Someone's butt slamming down on the horse's back at a sitting trot.

And most importantly... people who think they know everything in the saddle and refuse to listen to suggestions.


----------



## westerncowgurl

i have to ask what is chair seat? ive seen it mentioned on here befor, sorry if this sounds like a stupid question  ive honestly dont think ive ever seen it befor


----------



## DancingArabian

westerncowgurl said:


> i have to ask what is chair seat? ive seen it mentioned on here befor, sorry if this sounds like a stupid question  ive honestly dont think ive ever seen it befor


 Chair seat is when you're mounted on a horse but your thighs are mor parallel to the ground and then your lower legs drop down at or close to a 90 degree angle. Basically you're on a horse but seated the way you would be in a chair . You're not very well balanced like that and sometimes people will brace against their horse because of the way their legs are positioned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MangoRoX87

Barrel racers that wear huge spurs and flap their legs like they are trying to fly away.

How lots of team ropers stand in their stirrups, lean over the horse and hold on to the horn the entire time they are riding. DUDE your on a trail ride, chilax.

People that lean into a turn, instead of picking up their shoulder.

When people lean back to do a sliding stop.

Snobby people.

When the jelly runs off my sandwich.

When your on a trail ride with a woman who has never had riding lessons, but owns a 15K Fresian, brand new dressage saddle and bridle that is decked out it crystals. And she has to dismount half way through the ride because her horse is "nervous". No mam, he ain't, he was twitching at a fly.

People that ride in the $5 grazing bits that come in tack sets. Just bothers me.

When I am warming up in the pen, and all the walkers form lines and take up the whole arena.

How I grib with my calves sometimes when I ask for a stop.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## eclipseranch

wow! you guys are super observant & critical of others' riding. when I'm out with my horses I am focused on enjoying the moment with my horses & my family...not sure I would want you guys watching me..I'm sure you would find something you didn't like...probably many...I know I'm not perfect!


----------



## EnglishElegance

Puppy paws and when people can't keep their heels down!


----------



## KissTheRing

When people post on the wrong diagonal- and make no effort to correct it- For real if you spend $10+ a class you should post correctly


----------



## Island Horselover

tinyliny said:


> I was just going to say what Anebel said; the heel/spur in the side every stride.
> 
> Or, in the case of lunging a horse, the constant flipping of the whip and clucking nonstop, even thought the horse is already going nicely.



Totally agree with this one! It also makes me crazy to watch people lunging their horses and moving more than the horse :0)


----------



## Almond Joy

People with their feet too far in the stirrups- Like come on they're supposed to be on the balls of your feet!


----------



## LynnF

People that don't know the meaning of release..


----------



## gypsygirl

i hate when people cluck constantly, it is so distracting and just annoying ! if you need to cluck that many times, its time to tap them with your whip.


----------



## xJumperx

That one person in the warm up pen who goes the opposite direction of everyone else...


----------



## Golden Horse

I guess a lot of you hate me, because I don't always ride pretty, and you will catch me posting on the wrong diagonal, yes I have to check it,


----------



## Snizard93

I sure wouldn't want you guys watching me ride :shock:


----------



## Bandita1

Vocal commands in a large group of horses and riders. Also, yelling at your horse in large groups. Yelling, period..


----------



## MyBoyPuck

Hauling on the reins by far bugs me the most. I wish people would figure out that the head does not propel or stop the horse. That's what those 4 things underneath it are for.


----------



## VanillaBean

Pumping legs whilst cantering...can't stand it.

When people ride an inverted horse in dressage. Really, it looks terrible and it must feel terrible for the horse.

Ill fitting bridles. U G H

...

I don't want to insult too many...


----------



## palominolover

I'm SOOO guilty of being the maniacal clucker when I lunge my horse . But hey I normally am not the only one.


----------



## faye

People balancing on thier hands.
People gripping with thier knees.

people who think fast = forwards and go everywhere at 400mph with thier horses face on its chest and its **** in the next county.

People who think lunging = horse going round in circles. There is actualy an art to doing it properly and you can teach a horse so much on the lunge.

People who wont give thier very naughty horses a wollop. Sometimes a horse realy is just playing you up, so instead of being nicey nicey, ending up frustrated and putting the other riders in the school in danger, give the horse a **** good wollop (either with your heels or a stick) and tell the brat to get on with it!
I certainly dont advocate beating a horse but its amazing the amount of horses i've gotten on that were "difficult or dangerous" for thier owners but in reality just needed telling no you d**** well will do as your told and if you buck/rear/nap the conciquences will be unpleasent for you.


----------



## bsms

I'm making a list, so I'll know how to annoy people if I ever run into someone who cares how I ride...

Oh wait! This is in ENGLISH RIDING.

I've got an Aussie-style saddle, so I can ride any way I want.:happydance:


----------



## Golden Horse

Ooopsie, ignore me, just passing through on the way to the bathroom, night night


----------



## blue eyed pony

I'm guilty of some of these :/

And yep I do constantly flick the whip when I'm lunging, it gets caught otherwise and annoys me. I don't have perfect arena surface, nor do I particularly want it (teaches my horses to pick up their feet to have an uneven paddock instead of a perfect flat arena).

BUT, round penning horses and letting them just gallop flat out around and around is doing absolutely NOTHING for the horse's education... you need to change their direction, transition them between gaits, etc etc, because YOU controlling the direction and speed of movement is what teaches the horse that you're in charge. Ineffective groundwork.... ugh.

I also hate "those" types who just won't discipline their horses... and who then proceed to accuse me of abuse when I discipline my own, and then ask me how the heck I have such beautifully behaved horses. ummm, genius, it's because I tell them off sometimes!!


----------



## EvilHorseOfDoom

blue eyed pony said:


> I also hate "those" types who just won't discipline their horses... and who then proceed to accuse me of abuse when I discipline my own, and then ask me how the heck I have such beautifully behaved horses. ummm, genius, it's because I tell them off sometimes!!


I received a wonderful amount of help from a much more experienced girl when I first got Brock and he showed himself to be a bag of trouble, and she said she hoped I didn't mind that some of her methods weren't all touchy-feely. I told her, not at all, because I knew that if I didn't discipline him properly I'd either have to spend a fortune in fixing him up or he'd hurt me or someone else very badly, and be off to the doggers.

People do the same thing with dogs - I've met too many out of control, aggressive dogs whose owners get upset at YOU when you yell at their dog for being aggressive. I don't believe in violence towards animals (I got VERY angry when this woman at my old barn hit my horse with a broom because he was pawing the floor, terrifying him and nearly making him fall over - 2 days of completely ignoring him when he did it and it went away) but consistent, fair discipline is a must. Most horses get it after a little while, and you don't need to do it anymore anyway. Just give them the "I'm watching you" look, or a "Git outta it!" if they ever try it on again and all goes back to normal.

Sorry, rant over. It just gets my goat when people get all goo-goo with their animals and then wonder why they can't control them... Vented now, off to have a cuppa!


----------



## AnnaT

Oooo here comes a list.

- People who stand up or lean back and pull the reins, ohhh that one really annoys me.
- Also people who have the reins like really short and are just pulling the horse the whole time they ride.
- Riders who pull the reins upwards to their face.
- Riders who kick like lots of little tiny useless kicks instead of one.
- When people bring a horse in to lunge in an arena full of riders and they know their horse is hyper and will most likely bolt off around the arena and demolish everything.
- Riders who just give up and expect the horse to guide itself.
- Riders who hit excessively or even constantly (especially with a dressage/schooling whip). It makes no difference!
- Riders galloping around a small arena or an indoor school.
- When people ride up behind me or into the side of me and then act like I was in the wrong, I don't have eyes on the back of my head! In other words, they aren't looking ahead or simply think I have 10 eyes, I shouldn't be having to look around me.
- When I ride on the inside track, to give people cantering the outside track and they ride inside of me REALLY CLOSE!
- When I'm standing and someone canters over and suddenly stops like RIGHT beside me. It's so dangerous!
- When people with horses who buck and kick often, ride right up next to me and think its funny, it won't be so funny when you pay my vet bills LOVE.

Just to name a few!


----------



## DancingArabian

I hate when you're in a good sized arena lunging your horse then a rider comes in and wants to squeeze in around your horse in that 2 foot gap between your horse and the wall. Come on! It's. 200' arena, no need for that! Then don't get mad when I flick my whip at my horse because you're distracting him and your horse reacts. I'm trying to work my horse! Go on the other side of the arena or to the other arena to work yours! It's not polite to expect someone else's training session to have to change because you're doing something unnecessary!

If you see someone working at liberty and free lunging don't enter the arena to try and ride. Use the OTHER arena. I seriously had this happen to me.

(general you)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## horsezrule

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> The nagging, spur-in-the-horses-side-every-stride, constantly pulling riders.
> 
> The horse always looks frustrated or "turned off"... Drives me nuts! If people could just sit and do nothing but follow the horse I wonder how fast they would figure out the horse will do the work!!


...I agree!


----------



## MLShunterjumper

DancingArabian said:


> A few things bug me..
> 
> Riders without helmets
> Babies on horses
> Flopping around in the saddle
> Flapping arms
> Chair seat
> The wildly flapping legs
> Huge cues (I know some horses really do need a pony kick but jeez!)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have the flapping legs issue but I'm working on it. But I completely agree with you on that one: When I watch videos of my riding, sometimes seeing my legs swinging all over the place makes me want to sock the camera LOL.


----------



## MLShunterjumper

Island Horselover said:


> Totally agree with this one! It also makes me crazy to watch people lunging their horses and moving more than the horse :0)


I TOTALLY AGREE. To add to that, people that try to lunge horses but have no idea how to. At my last show, there was a huge sign in front of the hunter schooling ring that read ABSOLUTELY NO LUNGING. And when we came to warm up before our classes, what do we see but a girl trying to lunge a horse. And I say "trying to" because she was running around, chasing her horse with the lunge whip, clucking like nuts and getting nothing out of it. UGH.


----------



## AnalisaParalyzer

pulling on the horses face, overly powerful spurs (or rather, the overly harsh use of them) and hitting or beating as training. A horse bites you, pop that sucker in the face. Tosses his head and pops around on the lunge line cause he doesn't get it that you want the correct lead, you'd better not be whacking that horse with a rope and expecting to get results.

When I ride, I've gotten into the habit of what my partner calls "trainers hump". When "working" annie through her hunter paces, my shoulders get rounded out and my center of gravity pulls forward, giving me a better feel of my horse, but its not really pretty or "correct". I have to remind myself to focus on her, and retrain my body at the same time :/ it doesn't happen when we're out on trails, but I don't feel like I'm working when I'm trouncing through the woods.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almond Joy

Riders who constantly look down at their horse.... I always do this, it's a huge problem of mine!


----------



## Joidigm

"Helicopter Butts" while cantering. Ugh. v_v


----------



## Arksly

People without ring manners. The ones who just think that everyone should go around them.

Another pet peeve of mine is MY feet. I have bad knees and ankles so every time I go up to post, my heels go waaaayyyy down, and when I come down, they go to where they should be. So it looks like I'm always kicking my horse even though I'm not touching her.

Oh! And when someone's horse is being bad while they ride so they get off and hit the horse with their crop, whip, reins, whatever.


----------



## Joidigm

I can't find it again to quote it, but some one mentioned pulling on the reins while applying leg pressure? This is basically collecting, in how I have been taught and explained by many instructors and riders. You're not supposed to yank the mouth and kick of course, but pulling the reins down gently and applying pressure with the legs is how many are taught to signal the horse to collect his frame. It is also used with gaited horses to help them collect their gaits to prevent them from pacing.

It's supposed to be subtle, so I assume the peeve would be over exaggerating and jerking on the horse.


----------



## xJumperx

This event -

I'm shopping for horses.
I go to see a horse.
He bites the crap out of my arm.
He doesn't let go.
I promply smack him on the nose. 
He throws his head up, obviously never been repriminded.
Then the owner looks at me like I've just burned her horse with a hot iron across his face. 
Seriously -.-'

That actually happened to me  I obviously didn't buy that horse xD Got Cowboy instead. He doesn't bite


----------



## howrsegirl123

tinyliny said:


> I was just going to say what Anebel said; the heel/spur in the side every stride.
> 
> Or, in the case of lunging a horse, the constant flipping of the whip and clucking nonstop, even thought the horse is already going nicely.


 
OMG, what the heck?? I know right...I see them all that all the time at AQHA shows! Leave them alone people! They're cantering fine and they're probably not going to stop! If you're so worried about them stopping, train them kindly to keep going until asked to stop...you can do that you know. Just stop nagging!


----------



## Chiilaa

Joidigm said:


> I can't find it again to quote it, but some one mentioned pulling on the reins while applying leg pressure? This is basically collecting, in how I have been taught and explained by many instructors and riders. You're not supposed to yank the mouth and kick of course, but pulling the reins down gently and applying pressure with the legs is how many are taught to signal the horse to collect his frame. It is also used with gaited horses to help them collect their gaits to prevent them from pacing.
> 
> It's supposed to be subtle, so I assume the peeve would be over exaggerating and jerking on the horse.


Collection has nothing to do with pulling the hands. You should have a horse coming forward into hands that collect the energy. This is just by staying still and not allowing the energy to escape. At no point at all should the rider's hands move backwards. Ever. That is not collection then, it is forcing the horse into a false frame.


----------



## faye

agree with chilla, if you are pulling on the reins to get a horse to collect then it isnt collecting.

when I ride my pony into my hands there is a contact down the reins but it never feels more than having a small weight on the end of a piece of cotton, It should feel light and easy and at no point should there be anything even remotly like pulling.


----------



## srh1

EvilHorseOfDoom said:


> I received a wonderful amount of help from a much more experienced girl when I first got Brock and he showed himself to be a bag of trouble, and she said she hoped I didn't mind that some of her methods weren't all touchy-feely. I told her, not at all, because I knew that if I didn't discipline him properly I'd either have to spend a fortune in fixing him up or he'd hurt me or someone else very badly, and be off to the doggers.
> 
> People do the same thing with dogs - I've met too many out of control, aggressive dogs whose owners get upset at YOU when you yell at their dog for being aggressive.


I do agree with disciplining animals, but if someone ever yelled at my dog I'd flip. Of course, she's not allowed to show aggression towards anyone and I would correct her if she did. If someone else tried to correct her that would absolutely not be okay. She used to be slightly reactive when she was a half grown pup (she's good now) and I can say without a doubt in the world anyone yelling at her would have made it 10 times worse. 

I hate when people correct other people's animals for things without being asked, or try to 'fix' a problem, it doesn't matter if the way they go about it is good or not. If they ask if I need a hand or would like some advice that's different. This goes for dogs or horses. 

And it bigs me when people override their horses and are harsh on their poor mouths.


----------



## faye

srh1 if your horse bites me then it will get a smack, like it or not, if your horse is nipping then clearly it hasnt got any manners and correction has to be done instantly, not 2 mins later when youve managed to get accross the yard to discipline your horse, at that point the horse doesnt understand why it is being punished.

i've had plenty of horses bite me over a stable door as I walked past, all have got a smack, none have thought about doing it again. 
My own pony occassionaly will nip at the moment (frustration at being locked in a stable on boxrest) He doesnt dare nip me but the lady who looks after him in the morning for me wont smack him so he takes advantage.


----------



## EvilHorseOfDoom

srh1 said:


> I do agree with disciplining animals, but if someone ever yelled at my dog I'd flip.


The dog I was thinking of at the time was a full grown malamute (with an incompetent owner) that had chased down my 3yo sister. I think it was reasonable to yell at it and chase it off. I don't go round yelling at other people's animals, but having been badly mauled by a dog in childhood I know what they're capable of and they're not allowed in my space unless invited. Certainly not if they're being aggressive, which many big ones are in the city as they're frustrated out of their mind stuck in tiny terrace houses with no garden to speak of.


----------



## srh1

Faye, if you are actually handling my horse/dog it means I am either right there to give instruction or I trust you enough to make a judgement call like that. 

I've never had a horse bite me over a stall, but then I've never been close enough to a horse I didn't know and wasn't watching closely to give them the chance. If a horse actually does bite you and you were just walking by ignoring them that's your safety so it's different. If it's possible to give a horse you don't know some extra space and not get bit in the first place that seems even better though 

Dogs are different than horses. To some dogs a person yelling at her if they already didn't like them would make them think "WOAH, I knew that person was evil, but don't worry I'll eat them!". To the type that was reacting aggressively out of fear it would also reinforce their thoughts. Even if it does stop the behavior in the moment it's not likely to help long term. Unless you or someone/something else is in actual danger just ignoring it is best for everyone involved. I've worked through the issues of both types before and the correction has to come from the owner to be helpful. And yelling from anyone is usually counterproductive.

Safety first, obviously. But if you can safely avoid contact with an animal you don't know and don't have permission to handle then do so and don't worry about what its reaction to you is.


----------



## srh1

EvilHorseofDoom I totally agree with you in that situation!

And I love your name!


----------



## EvilHorseOfDoom

srh1 said:


> EvilHorseofDoom I totally agree with you in that situation!
> 
> And I love your name!


Glad you agree 

It's the name of my horse's alter ego. On dark, stormy nights, and at the full moon, he goes from looking like a lazy mule to a prancing, eye-rolling black demon :mrgreen:


----------



## Regula

I don't want to have my animals "disciplined" by other people either, but life's not perfect. My old dog was dog agressive - we had an incident once when I walked him on leash in an area with very low dog density. We saw a lady with her off-leash dog far away and I picked a different trail to stay away. Her dog ran towards us nonetheless and she had no control whatsoever, so I had my dog sit and blocked the other dog from going towards him. She came yelling and cursing how dare I discipline her dog... I was just thinking if my dog had put holes in hers, she would've liked it much less.
Same with the horse, if I go get mine from the pasture and another one comes at him while I'm leading, **** well I'll stick up for mine and get the other one to go away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mckellar

Hmm riders flopping around and I don't know if this is a bad habit or pet peeve but riders saying nasty stuff when they hit rails ( real examples) " wow I wish my horse was actually good" and that girl gallops around and should thank god her horse does fall. And my fav. " stupid f****n horse pick up your g*d **** legs once and a while" after the horse cleared every jump by a foot and she rode him into a jump that he saved her butt on... Any other horse would have refused


----------



## Snizard93

Well, I don't wanna offend anyone cause everyone has bad habits that they do and don't know about. I forgot to keep a bend in my elbows and I am having trouble with keeping my lower leg under myself instead of in front. 

But, the thing that really annoys me, is when people flap their legs. I think someone has already mentioned it though. It drives me nuts! I don't really understand how it is so difficult to actually use your heel and your leg. Watching an instructor tell someone to trot for example, and the kid sits and flaps their legs, and wonder why the horse doesn't move!


----------



## EnglishElegance

Joidigm said:


> "Helicopter Butts" while cantering. Ugh. v_v


What exactly is "helicopter butt" ?


----------



## jaydee

*annoying riding habits*

People who are constantly nag nag nag with their heels
People who put really severe bits on their horse instead of learning how to ride properly and use their own strength now and again
People who use severe bits and hang onto them then ask why their horse isn't going forward properly
Reins (English style riding) so long you could hang the washing out to dry on them
(Mostly) women who sit on their ***** instead of on their butts - men tend not to do it as its likely to be too painful
I have an awful habit of looking down at my horses shoulders which makes you lean in, I have to really think hard not to do it. We watched a woman in a show ring recently doing it really badly and I kept wanting to shout out at her to stop it.


----------



## jaydee

*bad habits*



Joidigm said:


> I can't find it again to quote it, but some one mentioned pulling on the reins while applying leg pressure? This is basically collecting, in how I have been taught and explained by many instructors and riders. You're not supposed to yank the mouth and kick of course, but pulling the reins down gently and applying pressure with the legs is how many are taught to signal the horse to collect his frame. It is also used with gaited horses to help them collect their gaits to prevent them from pacing.
> 
> It's supposed to be subtle, so I assume the peeve would be over exaggerating and jerking on the horse.


 Collection should be like thinking of the horse between your hands and legs like a coiled spring thats getting gentle pressure from both ends so that it balances, it has to be smooth and precise


----------



## Kayty

I don't have a peeve of riding positional issues. EVERYONE has a flaw in there position, not a single person is perfect. 
So I believe it increadibly unfair to pick on a positional fault like a chair seat or 'piano hands'. This is not an intentional problem that the rider has, and is something that they need to work on over time to build the muscle memory and balance to rectify. 

What DOES annoy me, is what some others have already said - people that constantly nag their horse. This isn't something that is due to a balance or muscle memory fault - it is intentional. Constantly kicking and nagging is absolutly unnecessary. 
My other issue, is with people whom use the 'Yank and Crank' method - essentially using force to drag the horse's head down into some sort of a frame. The horse's back remains stiff, the head is jammed in tight, and the legs are moving like daisy cutters. 
Again, totally unnecessary and is pure lazyness with a person unwillling to take the time and patience to train a horse using more correct methods.


----------



## blue eyed pony

ughhhh kayty I'm dealing with that with a mare I'm riding atm... she's been yanked on to force her into a false frame, and then yanked on whenever she took up any sort of contact with the rein. So now she sucks back and I have to fix that.... not easy!


----------



## Kayty

I don't envy you blue eyed pony! Retraining them to take a contact and carry it is a ****** of a job when someone useless has yanked on their head, fiddled their reins and made them so wary of taking a contact that they get around with their head sucked in and no muscle in front of the wither. You can always pick a horse that is trained with the 'yank and crank' method - they're the ones with the big muscles bulging at the top of their neck, and a big dip in front of the wither from sucking back!


----------



## blue eyed pony

yeah, it's going to be very frustrating I imagine! I'm just walking her around on a long rein with a light contact, she'll take that, but as soon as you try to ask her to work properly either the head comes WAYYY up (TB off the track thing) or she sucks back. I think she just needs time and patience to learn that not all people will yank her around.

She has NO topline, and no muscle on her neck, it's dreadful! She's been out of work and is a bit light at the moment so the sucking back muscle is gone, but she's slowly coming back up to weight and once she does the plan is lots and lots of trotting, forward, on a long rein. Let her develop straightness and rhythm, and some topline using trot poles, and eventually (hopefully) she'll get there.


----------



## Kayty

I'd prefer her to run around with her head in the air to start with - much easier to get her hind legs going with the head higher than lower. People that preach 'long and low' to build muscles evidently have no idea about how difficult this 'frame' actually is for both the horse and rider to hold and use efficiently.


----------



## blue eyed pony

Yeah I'm not trying to ask her head down, just get her forward and relaxed for now. She's not done much (if any) of just walking around and standing, so as soon as you get on, if the weather's a bit dodgy, she's trying to run everywhere.

Her movement is REALLY nice though, so if I can get her sorted she'd be a lovely eventer... too much jumping talent for pure dressage and being a TB her movement isn't really big enough. But, first things first, I just need to get her to chill, and develop forward and rhythm, and not care where her head is.

ETA; oh, and my gelding LOVES long and low - if I let him have enough rein for it, he instantly just starts pushing from behind so much better, and he really seeks the contact. It's harder to get a competition frame from him than it is to get good long and low. I think HE thinks he's evading work, but his topline is so much better for it so I'm not complaining!


----------



## Kayty

If he actually seeks a contact, swings his back, stays together in rythm, and works his hind legs - then you're onto a winner!
Most people seem to think that giving the reins and having the horse drops its head and plod along counts as long and low. You might as well get off and let the horse exercise itself in the paddock, totally useless!


----------



## blue eyed pony

He's much nicer to ride long and low than in a higher "competition" frame that's for sure... keeps rhythm better, he's straighter, he's more "in control" (he likes to get a bit rushy) AND he's more forward and more willing. Funny horse that he is  I should get a video sometime and stick it up here to see if what I'm feeling is really what he looks like.

Edit; COMPLETELY different feeling to this, on a previous horse;


----------



## jaydee

*false head carriage*



blue eyed pony said:


> ughhhh kayty I'm dealing with that with a mare I'm riding atm... she's been yanked on to force her into a false frame, and then yanked on whenever she took up any sort of contact with the rein. So now she sucks back and I have to fix that.... not easy!


 This is exactly the problem that I am having with my new mare. I think she may be part arab and worked in one of those training aids and lunged in tight side reins so her head is 'in frame' as they call it with no contact with her mouth, so when you touch her mouth her head becomes overbent and behind the bit. Because there is no natural balance or collection her quarters dont come underneath her so that hollows the back. I have her in a rubber bit now as she seemed like she'd had something sharp in her mouth to actually put her off having any contact and working her on the lunge so she can find her correct balance herself
Over the winter of 2010 & 2011 while I was looking for a new horse I had 'lessons' twice a week on a top arabian yard where the horses were always ridden in training martingales, I was told off for 'riding the horse in frame' - asking for colection by using the correct aids and the moment I mentioned that the horse was 'coming on to the bit' which to me was a good thing they put a sharp twisted snaffle on her to deter her. This horse was 10 years old and didn't know how to walk in a circle when you took her off the rail. I will see if I can find a video my husband took of her at the end of the lesson period as she was actually beginning to lengthen her stride a bit by then. She was in a stable 24/7 and only being ridden most weeks by me which amounted to 2 hours a week. Not good


----------



## Joidigm

Chiilaa said:


> Collection has nothing to do with pulling the hands. You should have a horse coming forward into hands that collect the energy. This is just by staying still and not allowing the energy to escape. At no point at all should the rider's hands move backwards. Ever. That is not collection then, it is forcing the horse into a false frame.



It's not actually pulling backwards on the reins and therefore the bit. It's not held. It's just tapping the reins to remind the horse to bring their head and neck down. It doesn't make them break at the poll, it doesn't pull them behind the vertical. I rode a lot of ex-western trained horses, and this was how they were taught (re-trained) to go into frame, considering they weren't strong enough yet, or even used to carry themselves that way all the time. Tap on the reins, and squeeze a little with the legs. It tells them to round the neck and back. It's sort of like driving them into the frame without using a driving seat.

I was saying, I think this is what is trying to be achieved when you see riders pull on the reins and squeeze to go. It is a false collection, you are correct. But that is how I have seen it is often taught on lower levels, when you see beginner riders over exaggerating their movements until they learn to subtle down.

I am an adult, and I have a very soft hand. I only have my assumptions to go by with younger riders, because I never rode as a child or teenager.


----------



## Joidigm

EnglishElegance said:


> What exactly is "helicopter butt" ?



When riding a canter, and they're all swingy and spinny in the canter, which makes their butts wiggle and waggle all over the place. See it a lot in H/J rings.


----------



## Joidigm

jaydee said:


> (Mostly) women who sit on their ***** instead of on their butts - men tend not to do it as its likely to be too painful


I sit balanced between the three bones of my pelvis, which includes the two butt bones and the front pelvis bone as opposed to balanced on my two butt bones. I don't know if this is what you are referring to or not, but I do not have the physical ability to sit back on my butt. If I try to sit back further towards my tail bone, it curves my long back in a way that makes me hunch forward, which collapses my core and my shoulders. I can physically absorb a lot more motion sitting balanced on three points, which actually makes for a really comfortable sitting trot and canter. I don't know if this is what you refer to sitting on genitals or if you mean sitting all the way forward on the front pelvis bone alone.

Men are built differently in the pelvis, and you will often see them sit back on their pockets because they are physically able to. The butt bones are narrower (closer together), and the tail bone is longer, and tucks in closer to the pelvis, iirc.


----------



## jaydee

*pet peeves*



Joidigm said:


> When riding a canter, and they're all swingy and spinny in the canter, which makes their butts wiggle and waggle all over the place. See it a lot in H/J rings.


 Hate that - dont they see how silly they look and if you get too far up there you are in danger of putting all your weight onto the horses forehand just as he needs it light to go into the air


----------



## Chiilaa

Joidigm said:


> It tells them to round the neck and back. It's sort of like driving them into the frame without using a driving seat.


Nothing without a seat is going to be working correctly, sorry. The seat is the number one, single most important part of the communication between rider and horse, and is FAR more responsible for collection than hands are. Using the hands to "collect" the horse will drag it down into a false frame and onto the forehand. It may be the way 90% of people are taught to ride, but it is still wrong. You CANNOT collect a horse from the front. You HAVE to collect them from the back - bring the hindquarters under themselves, and using the back correctly.


----------



## jaydee

*seat position*



Joidigm said:


> I sit balanced between the three bones of my pelvis, which includes the two butt bones and the front pelvis bone as opposed to balanced on my two butt bones. I don't know if this is what you are referring to or not, but I do not have the physical ability to sit back on my butt. If I try to sit back further towards my tail bone, it curves my long back in a way that makes me hunch forward, which collapses my core and my shoulders. I can physically absorb a lot more motion sitting balanced on three points, which actually makes for a really comfortable sitting trot and canter. I don't know if this is what you refer to sitting on genitals or if you mean sitting all the way forward on the front pelvis bone alone.
> 
> Men are built differently in the pelvis, and you will often see them sit back on their pockets because they are physically able to. The butt bones are narrower (closer together), and the tail bone is longer, and tucks in closer to the pelvis, iirc.


 You sound to be about right to me, if you sit too much on the back of your butt you will be more inclined to hollow your back too much if you then straighten up from that hunched position. A lot of women have a habit of tilting too far forward - as you more politely say - onto their genitals which reduces your ability to use your seat as an active driving force. I think this is what makes men stronger riders (NOT all men/women obviously) You should feel that you are relaxed and sinking down into the horse rather than perched uncomfortably on top


----------



## Equilove

Well, I read most of these and can't say I get particularly "bothered" when I see these things. Since it isn't my place to judge someone I don't know riding a horse I don't know, I don't get at all upset when I see people riding improperly.

Now, abuse and aggression does upset me. When I see a girl get angry with her horse and hit it, which I HAVE seen, I get upset. So, bad attitudes bother me. Not bad riding. Most the time I just assume it's an inexperienced rider, and who am I to judge someone like that? We've all been there. No one here came out of the womb a professional. Could you imagine if your instructor had the same mind set and went home to judge you or whispered to her pal while you were riding? How embarrassing, condescending, and unnecessary.

More than bad riding upsets me, bad horsemanship upsets me. There's a big difference between someone not knowing how to ride, and someone not knowing their horse.


----------



## Joidigm

Chiilaa said:


> Nothing without a seat is going to be working correctly, sorry. The seat is the number one, single most important part of the communication between rider and horse, and is FAR more responsible for collection than hands are. Using the hands to "collect" the horse will drag it down into a false frame and onto the forehand. It may be the way 90% of people are taught to ride, but it is still wrong. You CANNOT collect a horse from the front. You HAVE to collect them from the back - bring the hindquarters under themselves, and using the back correctly.


Using your seat to collect the rear all the way through the spine; now how do you bring the head down? A green or retrained horse that isn't used to moving with their rear ends under them. You can drive them, make them pick up and reach under themselves better. They're still learning.


----------



## Joidigm

jaydee said:


> You sound to be about right to me, if you sit too much on the back of your butt you will be more inclined to hollow your back too much if you then straighten up from that hunched position. A lot of women have a habit of tilting too far forward - as you more politely say - onto their genitals which reduces your ability to use your seat as an active driving force. I think this is what makes men stronger riders (NOT all men/women obviously) You should feel that you are relaxed and sinking down into the horse rather than perched uncomfortably on top


It takes a while getting used to riding that way, because you are still technically riding on a tender spot. But I would imagine being all the way forward like that would put you balanced heavily on the forehand. :? I'm very teeter totter-y, and if I lean just a little bit to far forward, I'm a goner. :shock: Legs swing back, I might lose a stirrup, very messy. :lol:


----------



## horseandme

when people perposly stand up in their stirrups t pump there horses up. wen people run(i run barrelsand they scream at their horse,all the are doing is scaring it. when little kids who cant control there horse just let it do wat ever,one time kid let here horse kick mine for no reason.peoplebalencing on their reins and not their seat,ugh that drives me nuts! This one isnt really the same but when people judge your horse adn say mean things like he isugly and he could win with me riding backwards,that honks me off.


----------



## jaydee

*sitting correctly*



Joidigm said:


> It takes a while getting used to riding that way, because you are still technically riding on a tender spot. But I would imagine being all the way forward like that would put you balanced heavily on the forehand. :? I'm very teeter totter-y, and if I lean just a little bit to far forward, I'm a goner. :shock: Legs swing back, I might lose a stirrup, very messy. :lol:


This is a photo from a UK photographers site taken at a local show - hope the lady never sees it. I don't know what has gone wrong here, she considers herself to be an experienced rider and has been riding for many years but to me its how bad habits creep in when you dont have someone standing in the middle pointing them out to you but she she was saying she had to use a whip to make this pony move and was considering spurs yet all the fault is in the way she's sitting, where her legs are, where her point of balance is and the fact that she has no driving force from behind I think when she saw this on these photos it was a wake up call for her as things sound to be going way better
Getting someone to video you or photograph you is a really good idea for self critique


----------



## jaydee

*collection*



Joidigm said:


> Using your seat to collect the rear all the way through the spine; now how do you bring the head down? A green or retrained horse that isn't used to moving with their rear ends under them. You can drive them, make them pick up and reach under themselves better. They're still learning.


 A lot of it is the result of all the quick fix gadgets that have been around for years now and people getting too reliant on them and developing unnatural muscle areas in horses that actually make it uncomfortable for them to work correctly. Its a slow process to correct or establish, a horse thats trailing it back end will hollow its spine and then its neck and head will follow that line and go upwards in an effort to keep up with its front end. You need soft hands & a mild bit that you can 'play' with and create soft resistance rather than jabbing, tugging or a hard unwielding hold so that instead of 'running' forwards the horse relaxes its back and that then flows through to the poll which will also relax so the head drops. People are in too big a rush to get an over exaggerated outline. You look at something like the Lippizaner horses, they spend years in training to get to where some people expect to be in a few months.


----------



## DoubleS

Peanut Rollers. >.<
English snobs.
Western snobs.
Snobs that think they can obtain world peace by riding both disciplines.
Snobs who could care less about horses but their parents force them into showing.
Western riders that look like they're riding in an english saddle.
People that post in a western pleasure class.
Barrel racers that slam their horse's sides. Unnecessary.
Really harsh bits.
People who have multiple entries with multiple horses in the same class.
I could go on and on!


----------



## jaydee

*things that bug us*



DoubleS said:


> Peanut Rollers. >.<
> English snobs.
> Western snobs.
> Snobs that think they can obtain world peace by riding both disciplines.
> Snobs who could care less about horses but their parents force them into showing.
> Western riders that look like they're riding in an english saddle.
> People that post in a western pleasure class.
> Barrel racers that slam their horse's sides. Unnecessary.
> Really harsh bits.
> People who have multiple entries with multiple horses in the same class.
> I could go on and on!


 Am I right in thinking that you are saying you dont like snobs? LOL
I"m with you on all of these things PLUS people who think that riding hunt seat is the same as riding western but with english tack
AND
We went to watch a show not long ago and not a single person riding in any class actually smiled and looked as if they were enjoying themselves. Come on you guilty ones - at least pretend that you're having fun or why the hell or you even doing it!!!!


----------



## Mckellar

What do you mean people who have multiple entry's and multiple horses in the same class? Why would that bother you? Years ago it bothers me when I knew very little about horses as a business ( I was like 10) because I said "that's not fair they have a higher change of winning" now I realize a lot of these people are trainers riding clients horses, the one horse can use it as a warm up for another class. Exposure for the horses. schooling rounds. 99% of people around here who do that (hunter and jumpers) do not go in classes to clean up its all for showing and winning is a bonus. 

You would hate me at shows! But I do it to help a friend out who can't ride her horse and to show my own horse and to get show miles on another. I'm not a professional so I'm not being paid but it's not to "get the upper hand" in the class lol


----------



## DoubleS

Mckellar said:


> What do you mean people who have multiple entry's and multiple horses in the same class? Why would that bother you? Years ago it bothers me when I knew very little about horses as a business ( I was like 10) because I said "that's not fair they have a higher change of winning" now I realize a lot of these people are trainers riding clients horses, the one horse can use it as a warm up for another class. Exposure for the horses. schooling rounds. 99% of people around here who do that (hunter and jumpers) do not go in classes to clean up its all for showing and winning is a bonus.
> 
> You would hate me at shows! But I do it to help a friend out who can't ride her horse and to show my own horse and to get show miles on another. I'm not a professional so I'm not being paid but it's not to "get the upper hand" in the class lol


In 4H shows during the some classes such as halter and gaming classes, the kids who have several horses are allowed to have multiple entries, which I find very annoying. At 4H shows you can't ride horses that aren't your own, so what you mentioned doesn't happen because they have to own or lease that horse. I don't know why, it just annoys me.


----------



## emeraldstar642

Riders who grip with their knees, chair seat, and most of all... yanking the horse's face off! Seriously some people need to learn what a soft hand and release is.


----------



## Chiilaa

Joidigm said:


> Using your seat to collect the rear all the way through the spine; now how do you bring the head down? A green or retrained horse that isn't used to moving with their rear ends under them. You can drive them, make them pick up and reach under themselves better. They're still learning.


If you are riding the horse correctly, the head will come into a "set" of its own accord. That is the idea of being "on the bit" - that the horse is maintaining the frame themselves. 

You don't ask the horse to drop the head. Any time you worry about where the horse's head is, you should think about what you can do to correct it from BEHIND - not from your hands.


----------



## Kayty

blue eyed pony said:


> He's much nicer to ride long and low than in a higher "competition" frame that's for sure... keeps rhythm better, he's straighter, he's more "in control" (he likes to get a bit rushy) AND he's more forward and more willing. Funny horse that he is  I should get a video sometime and stick it up here to see if what I'm feeling is really what he looks like.
> 
> Edit; COMPLETELY different feeling to this, on a previous horse;


He is very much on the forehand, with no engagement and the back is hollowed behind the saddle indicating that he is stiffening the back and not swinging. Comfy to sit on, but not correct  It may well build up muscle over the neck, but the back will stay undeveloped and the hind quarters will not develop any strength or pushing power - which then defeats the purpose of long and low used in the sense of a dressage exercise.


----------



## Mckellar

DoubleS : that clears it up a bit. That just seems very odd then lol, not sure the reasoning behind that. That would annoy me too


----------



## Kayty

Joidigm said:


> Using your seat to collect the rear all the way through the spine; now how do you bring the head down? A green or retrained horse that isn't used to moving with their rear ends under them. You can drive them, make them pick up and reach under themselves better. They're still learning.


Because you don't throw your reins up their necks and leave them to fend for themselves :wink:
A young dressage horse, fresh from the breakers so has no idea about collection, going into a 'frame' etc. is ridden very forward, motoring off their hind legs, into a very light, elastic contact on the bridle. The contact is essential for connecting the hind legs, to the back, to the bridle and to the riders hand. 
It does not take long at all (in fact, most breakers under a good, unobstrusive rider, will be starting to stretch from the wither into the bridle within only a few rides after backing. 

All we care about, is that the horse goes forward off the leg with active hind legs. He is ridden in this manner until he develops the srength to develop a little more carrying power behind, and can then begin to slightly shorten the frame. This is when the horse will start developing a good reaction to the rider's seat. The seat takes the job of the hand, in becoming the 'restraining aid' and can begin to influence the speed and carrying capactity of the hind legs. 
In creating drive in the hind legs, with the 'driving aids' (riders leg), and containing this power through the seat to control the speed and carrying capactity of the hind leg, and completing the circuit with the hind, keeping a light contact with the horse's mouth - he will naturally begin to come into the typical 'frame' that you see in a dressage horse. The stronger he gets, the shorter and more uphill this 'frame' becomes. No need to pull on their mouth to pull the head down. The contact and restraining aid of the seat does the work, and saves the horse's mouth.


----------



## DancingArabian

I dislike it when people strap gadgets on their horse without at least a clue of how to use the gadget properly or how to actually try to get positive results out of it.

I'm not anti-gadget (I've given a few a go myself) but I think a person should at least have SOME NOTION of what they're doing before they just start strapping gadgets on.


----------



## RiddlesDarkAngel5

I know this has been said before, but i absolutely hate seeing a horse going around in a false frame. You know the one where the rider has a death grip on the bit to haul the horses head in. And then these are inevitably the people that brag about how they taught their horse to go in frame "sooo easily!!!"


----------



## Saranda

I really dislike it when novice riders become know-it-alls and start acting as if they could re-invent the rules of good training, actually ruining a horses' skills and health by their incompetence, misuse of training tools and lack of skills - and not even admitting that they could actually use the help of a proper trainer!


----------



## faye

Kayty said:


> Because you don't throw your reins up their necks and leave them to fend for themselves :wink:
> A young dressage horse, fresh from the breakers so has no idea about collection, going into a 'frame' etc. is ridden very forward, motoring off their hind legs, into a very light, elastic contact on the bridle. The contact is essential for connecting the hind legs, to the back, to the bridle and to the riders hand.
> It does not take long at all (in fact, most breakers under a good, unobstrusive rider, will be starting to stretch from the wither into the bridle within only a few rides after backing.
> 
> All we care about, is that the horse goes forward off the leg with active hind legs. He is ridden in this manner until he develops the srength to develop a little more carrying power behind, and can then begin to slightly shorten the frame. This is when the horse will start developing a good reaction to the rider's seat. The seat takes the job of the hand, in becoming the 'restraining aid' and can begin to influence the speed and carrying capactity of the hind legs.
> In creating drive in the hind legs, with the 'driving aids' (riders leg), and containing this power through the seat to control the speed and carrying capactity of the hind leg, and completing the circuit with the hind, keeping a light contact with the horse's mouth - he will naturally begin to come into the typical 'frame' that you see in a dressage horse. The stronger he gets, the shorter and more uphill this 'frame' becomes. No need to pull on their mouth to pull the head down. The contact and restraining aid of the seat does the work, and saves the horse's mouth.


So true kyaty!
Joidigm, if you get the back end correct you dont need to worry about the front end as it naturaly falls into place. But that takes riding from your seat properly.
This is Reeco the first time I sat on him which was about the 4th time he had ever been sat on
He started as this








5 mins later we had this:
















Then we went on a hack up the road and were offered this:


















and this is him 9 weeks later, I have always ridden from my seat and he seeks out the lightest of contacts (like holding a budgie in your fist, got to be very very gentle). No fiddling with the reins, no taking a hold or anything just allowing him to work up unto my hands.









I hate horses who you have to hold onto thier mouths or fiddle with your reins to get anything, it is created by riders wiggling to reins untill the horse drops behind the contact to avoid it, or by riders widening thier hands and riding with thier hands on thier knees so that the horse has to drop its head to avoid the downward pressure on thier jaw. Its a **** pain to try and reschool as well because everytime you take a contact the horse will drop behind it. 
I'd far rather see a horse above the bridle than behind it!


----------



## blue eyed pony

Kayty said:


> He is very much on the forehand, with no engagement and the back is hollowed behind the saddle indicating that he is stiffening the back and not swinging. Comfy to sit on, but not correct  It may well build up muscle over the neck, but the back will stay undeveloped and the hind quarters will not develop any strength or pushing power - which then defeats the purpose of long and low used in the sense of a dressage exercise.


That was a previous horse - BAD long and low 

on my current horse it's a totally different feeling, much more uphill and powerful!


----------



## Almond Joy

faye said:


>


So, in this picture, is this horse using his hind end more/is he collected? *Confused*
This is really OT


----------



## jaydee

*correcting other peoples bad methods*



faye said:


> So true kyaty!
> I hate horses who you have to hold onto thier mouths or fiddle with your reins to get anything, it is created by riders wiggling to reins untill the horse drops behind the contact to avoid it, or by riders widening thier hands and riding with thier hands on thier knees so that the horse has to drop its head to avoid the downward pressure on thier jaw. Its a **** pain to try and reschool as well because everytime you take a contact the horse will drop behind it.
> I'd far rather see a horse above the bridle than behind it!


 Oh England!!! I miss it so much I have never seen anyone riding on the roads around the part of the US I live in and there are lots of horses and yards just in our rural town alone. Allowing a horse to find its own natural balance is the right way to go and surprising how quickly that happens and the head carriage comes right without all the contraptions and nagging at the mouth. Most people I knew over there hacked there showhorses/competition horses out regularly, I'm sure it keeps them sweeter and sharper but at the same time they have to be used to so much more going on around them. I tried a lot of horses over here that had never been ridden anywhere but in a school situation or on a showground.


----------



## Joidigm

This boy, I would always be asked to tap the reins on to bring his nose down. I'm not pulling on him, I don't yank on his face. He swaps back and forth between basic english and western riding. He's not green by any means, but I wouldn't call him dead broke either, although he is very mellow. I was being taught to teach him to get into frame during my lessons. QH with the most horrid trot I have ever ridden; tapping the reins told him to bring his nose down and it helped him round out and smooth his trot out.


----------



## jaydee

*head carriage*



Joidigm said:


> This boy, I would always be asked to tap the reins on to bring his nose down. I'm not pulling on him, I don't yank on his face. He swaps back and forth between basic english and western riding. He's not green by any means, but I wouldn't call him dead broke either, although he is very mellow. I was being taught to teach him to get into frame during my lessons. QH with the most horrid trot I have ever ridden; tapping the reins told him to bring his nose down and it helped him round out and smooth his trot out.


 I would actually call his head carriage overbent for the pace he seems to be going at (middle trot?). A horse will generally extend his foreleg stride to the line of his nose so you will end up with him feeling rather choppy and basically not going forwards as well as you want him too
Might be just the photo but is that throatlatch a little tight?


----------



## DancingArabian

Maybe the teeny iPhone screen is making it hard to see but he doesn't look like his back is lifted in the pics.

Even if it's not, of course he's going to be smoother without his head craned into the air. When they go into giraffe mode they're going to be in an unnatural and strained position so their feet will be moving awkwardly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BlueSpark

Honestly, the things that really bother me, are the habits that bother/hurt the horse.

Last year I heard a conversation between two women, the one was laughing as she described how she took her novice son riding in the mountains on his pony. He had always been allowed to ride by himself with no proper instruction. In this story, his pony was trotting and he wanted him to stop, so he was yanking on the reins and kicking with his spurs until the poor pony was trotting along with its head pulled to its chest. The mother was laughing about what a good dressage pony he would make:shock:

I see so many riders with harsh hands and spurs, to the point of abusive, riding horses that arnt properly trained, being dragged around with harsh bits, spurred constantly and yanked to a stop with mouths gaping.

Bad seats(while claiming experience), with bouncing all over at the trot, bouncing/leaning way back at the canter, leaning on the horses mouth to maintain ballance.

It all comes down to humilty and the desire for knowledge. If you are close minded and overly prideful, you'll never accept correction or work to be better.


----------



## Joidigm

jaydee said:


> I would actually call his head carriage overbent for the pace he seems to be going at (middle trot?). A horse will generally extend his foreleg stride to the line of his nose so you will end up with him feeling rather choppy and basically not going forwards as well as you want him too
> Might be just the photo but is that throatlatch a little tight?


I was still new to riding when this was taken. And I had just switched over to a non gaited horse, having learned on a TWH. I don't remember his throat latch being tight, I tend to leave them looser, so maybe it is the position of his head. 

He wasn't really a giraffe, he'd just pick his nose up and look everywhere but to his rider.


----------



## QHriderKE

The one thing that REALLY gets me is flapping chicken elbows. When I see it, I was to super glue peoples arms to their sides.


----------



## horseandme

DoubleS said:


> Peanut Rollers. >.<
> English snobs.
> Western snobs.
> Snobs that think they can obtain world peace by riding both disciplines.
> Snobs who could care less about horses but their parents force them into showing.
> Western riders that look like they're riding in an english saddle.
> People that post in a western pleasure class.
> Barrel racers that slam their horse's sides. Unnecessary.
> Really harsh bits.
> 
> People who have multiple entries with multiple horses in the same class.
> I could go on and on!


both me and my sister have two and somethimes three horses in each speed event. that is how we make money to buy our horse stuff,we spend countless hours over years to make ours horses the way they are and win. Please do not be criticul of people that do this. I am 14 and i have to buy my own saddles,leg wraps,wormer and everything else exept for feed.this is y most people do it. I love my horses and they diserve to put it all out there and run. i didnt know it bothered people.....


----------



## horseandme

o i have a few more haha 

when people oviously dont know what they are doing

when kids have their daddies pay for a trainer 2 weeks b4 everyyy show.

when people tell me to wear a helmet , if i am going to die, ill be with god

when barrel kids have their reins so short that even if they reach down the horses neck the reins will still be tight

when people think they are better bc they have a 10000 dollar horse

when people think they are better becasue their trailer is nicer

people yelling at horses

big bits with little kids


----------



## BlueSpark

> When people tell me to wear a helmet , if I am going to die, ill be with god


Every adult has the choice to wear a helmet or not. Knowing someone who was in a weird accident, (doing somthing safe and familiar, and ended up hitting his head) and has spent the last ten years with cronic migrains and short term memory loss on prescription pain killers, I make the choice to protect my head.

For people who know the effect of head injuries and care about fellow human beings, recomending you wear a helmet is evidence that they care.

I'm sure your family will take great comfort that, though you died young and unessesarily, you are with god, so there is no point in greiving.

(Sorry, this is a pet peave of mine. Choose not to wear safety gear, fine, but dont get mad at those who care enough to say something)


----------



## MLShunterjumper

QHriderKE said:


> The one thing that REALLY gets me is flapping chicken elbows. When I see it, I was to super glue peoples arms to their sides.


This habit doesn't usually get to me, but in one case it did. A couple years ago, I was still guilty of watching the saddle club, which is an old children's show where none of the actors know how to ride, always pulling and kicking at there horses. Back then, I thought they were the best riders ever because they could jump.  Anyhow, in one of the episodes there is a scene where a girl's boyfriend is galloping up to her. Well, in that scene, you see a close up of the guy on the horse, and there are his elbows, flapping like he's trying to fly. Sort of ruined the romantic effect...:lol: Well, that was the last episode of that show I ever watched.


----------



## Arksly

MLShunterjumper said:


> This habit doesn't usually get to me, but in one case it did. A couple years ago, I was still guilty of watching the saddle club, which is an old children's show where none of the actors know how to ride, always pulling and kicking at there horses. Back then, I thought they were the best riders ever because they could jump.  Anyhow, in one of the episodes there is a scene where a girl's boyfriend is galloping up to her. Well, in that scene, you see a close up of the guy on the horse, and there are his elbows, flapping like he's trying to fly. Sort of ruined the romantic effect...:lol: Well, that was the last episode of that show I ever watched.


I HATED that show. :lol: It was so terrible!


----------



## jaydee

*harsh bits and spurs*

UK mounted games needs a fast pony thats stops and turns on a sixpence but only snaffle bits are allowed and no spurs or whips, maybe its something that should be considered for novices and young people in stuff like barrel racing. I watched a Clinton TV thing recently where the woman was struggling to get the horse to go forward in the right direction because at the same time as she was kicking it on she was banging it in the mouth and her hands were going every which way, He told her to put it in a snaffle
Video of UK pony club competitors - its a rough game so riding isn't always pretty but having a mild bit is so much better on the ponies and they stop & turn just as fast


----------



## jaydee

*flapping elbows*



Arksly said:


> I HATED that show. :lol: It was so terrible!


 Never saw the show but I bet if you flap really hard you won't hit the ground so badly when you fly off - maybe just glide into a soft smooth landing LOL


----------



## socks

i hate when your in an arena with younger kids who don't really know how to ride. and they don't know what to do so they walk, trot, around the arena right up next to you infront of you and all sorts while you are trying to work your horse and get some training done... 

also at my 4-h horse meetings there are all these parents that say i'm a show off when i ride my horse because i work hard with him and actually try to make him better.(it makes me feel good too though because he use to a jerk and always bucked, he now does almost anything i want him to do!!! i love him!)


----------



## horseandme

BlueSpark said:


> Every adult has the choice to wear a helmet or not. Knowing someone who was in a weird accident, (doing somthing safe and familiar, and ended up hitting his head) and has spent the last ten years with cronic migrains and short term memory loss on prescription pain killers, I make the choice to protect my head.
> 
> For people who know the effect of head injuries and care about fellow human beings, recomending you wear a helmet is evidence that they care.
> 
> I'm sure your family will take great comfort that, though you died young and unessesarily, you are with god, so there is no point in greiving.
> 
> (Sorry, this is a pet peave of mine. Choose not to wear safety gear, fine, but dont get mad at those who care enough to say something)


 You say your pet peeve but i cant say mine? Little harsh huh? I understand you believe in helmets and I wore won until i was 12.I am a good barrel racer and I know my limits. Whn I wore one it made me feel scared.That was a figure of speech if u didnt notice,about the god part.Kids now adays are expected to be safe safe safe instead of have fun and take care of ur self. I know wat to do wen something goes wrong. I never do anything stupid and wreckless. I alwsy ride with my sister. you have a right to say something and so do I. I didnt say i was mad, i said it is a pet peeve:evilnly reason i would be mad is because u want me to justify why.When it doesnt matter, it says what is your pet peeve not what is your pet peeve and why is that exactly. umm yes i know the risks.


----------



## Mckellar

Don't worry about the helmet thing, if you fall you dont always die. You can become a vegetable for your family to take care of. Or get brain trama and not be able to take care of yourself of feed yourself. The ones who die are probably the lucky ones. 

But to each their own , I'm not telling anyone to wear one do what you want! 

Anyway I just thought of this. People who are at rated shows A or competative B ones and can't braid. They look horrible and think they're really good. It's neater not not braid then to attempt it! And braiding with elastics doesn't fool anyone, you braided with elastics.


----------



## Chiilaa

Joidigm said:


> This boy, I would always be asked to tap the reins on to bring his nose down. I'm not pulling on him, I don't yank on his face. He swaps back and forth between basic english and western riding. He's not green by any means, but I wouldn't call him dead broke either, although he is very mellow. I was being taught to teach him to get into frame during my lessons. QH with the most horrid trot I have ever ridden; tapping the reins told him to bring his nose down and it helped him round out and smooth his trot out.


And just as suggested, by worrying about his face, he is in a false frame and on the forehand. He is strung out behind and not using his back at all.


----------



## EvilHorseOfDoom

Chiilaa is right, he is in a false frame. Sylvia Loch does a great job of explaining how to achieve a true frame through engagement of the back end in this YouTube video: Sylvia Loch - On The Bit Dressage - YouTube

I have her Classical Seat trilogy on DVD, it is marvellous and really improved my riding.

You will feel when your horse comes onto his back end, the difference in power and energy is unmistakable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## freia

I've never heard the term "puppy-paws" before. I love it! I hate seeing it, but I love the term! It looks like something out of a Disney cartoon.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

socks said:


> i hate when your in an arena with younger kids who don't really know how to ride. and they don't know what to do so they walk, trot, around the arena right up next to you infront of you and all sorts while you are trying to work your horse and get some training done...


This happens at the barn I'm at a few times. I was riding Sky (my highly reactive, green, worry-wart) and bless their hearts another boarder and her daughter.. with a friend learning how to jump little crossrails. The indoor was being occupied by some western riders so it was either dodge inside or dodge outside lol..

But I was just walk, trot, and doing little patterns with Sky, getting him used to being outside and with other horses. And... one of the girl's horses begins to kind of take off bucking with her. Now Sky has NEVER EVER, in my care, been involved with a misbehaving horse undersaddle before. So the common courtesy would be to stop. And I did. Loose rein and everything and this horse comes barreling at us. 

It was hilarious, Sky takes ONE HUGE sideways step and the horse goes blazing by and eventually stops bucking about. But he was so calm! 

Then the rest of the time both horses kept getting too close to us and following too close when we were trotting around (so I had to keep on walking or stopping) and he was absolutely fine.

Had it been another horse.. I'm pretty sure it would have been a VERY bad experience.



QHriderKE said:


> The one thing that REALLY gets me is flapping chicken elbows. When I see it, I was to super glue peoples arms to their sides.


SO GUILTY.. I cannot control my arms at the canter yet. And when they're slightly out I have a better range of motion than when they're tucked in (and they rub against my side which I hate)


----------



## EnglishElegance

horseandme said:


> You say your pet peeve but i cant say mine? Little harsh huh? I understand you believe in helmets and I wore won until i was 12.I am a good barrel racer and I know my limits. Whn I wore one it made me feel scared.That was a figure of speech if u didnt notice,about the god part.Kids now adays are expected to be safe safe safe instead of have fun and take care of ur self. I know wat to do wen something goes wrong. I never do anything stupid and wreckless. I alwsy ride with my sister. you have a right to say something and so do I. I didnt say i was mad, i said it is a pet peeve:evilnly reason i would be mad is because u want me to justify why.When it doesnt matter, it says what is your pet peeve not what is your pet peeve and why is that exactly. umm yes i know the risks.


IMO it's always safer to wear helmets, because honestly, horses are unpredictable animals, it doesn't matter if your doing something 'completely safe', your horse could spook, or anything could happen, and you could fall off. I understand you're not scared of dying because you'll be with God, but, what if you fall off and injure yourself really bad, but don't quite die? And you have to go through all that pain.. I'm not telling you to do this or that, I'm just explaining that horses are unpredictable, so no matter how 'bombproof' of a horse you're riding, or how safe of an event your doing, anything could happen.


----------



## jaydee

*pet peeves*



horseandme said:


> o i have a few more haha
> 
> when people oviously dont know what they are doing
> 
> when kids have their daddies pay for a trainer 2 weeks b4 everyyy show.
> 
> when people tell me to wear a helmet , if i am going to die, ill be with god
> 
> when barrel kids have their reins so short that even if they reach down the horses neck the reins will still be tight
> 
> when people think they are better bc they have a 10000 dollar horse
> 
> when people think they are better becasue their trailer is nicer
> 
> people yelling at horses
> 
> big bits with little kids


 I could agree with most things you say other than not wanting people to care about you re. wearing a hat. I have no problem with anyone who chooses not to wear one but if I showed concern for their well being by saying I wished they would wear one without me being forceful then I'd like to think they accepted my concerns with gratitude not resentment. You say further along that you wore when until you were 12 but you don't look or sound that much older now - and that isn't a critiscm or meant to offend. I hope in all my heart that there is a God but no one has ever come back to assure me of it, if there isn't and when I die then it will be just a blank space I suppose. I also rode without a hat other than in competitions and hunting, I did have plenty of falls but never landed on my head. One very normal day when I was in my early 30's I set out on a very normal horse on a very normal ride. I have no idea what happened but friends with me say that he appeared to get his leg caught in something in the long grass we were going through - stupidly enough to avoid jumping a large fallen tree made 'trappy' by branches around it. Maybe he got his leg in a bramble but he launched forwards tipping me off in front of him and then kicked me on the side of the head as he jumped over me in an attempt to not trample me. When I came around it was the most painful thing I've ever experienced - and I've had 4 children - my skull was fractured, I have a scar that goes around the side of my head and the damage it did to my one ear drum has left me with dizzy spells if I move my head to fast. My thoughts afterwards - what if there had been no God and that was the end of it all, now when I look back I think that if I'd died that day I would have missed all of the wonderful things that I've done since. I know it was just a figure of speech for you but life is precious and you are most definitely never going to be a good enough rider to be invincible. If you dont die and just become mentally damaged to the point of being unable to care for yourself at least spare a thought for the person who has to wipe your butt for the rest of your life because they are probably the ones who care enough about you to 'wish you would wear a hat' Appreciate that people care, its when no one cares that you should start to worry


----------



## Remy410

I won't knock position faults b/c I am queen of the position faults. It's a constant struggle for me, and makes me very self conscious about riding in front of others. I'm the person ya'll are complaining about 

I will say I hate for riders try to compete at levels above where they should be riding or that's above their horse's skill level. I've seen some scary stuff when volunteering for USEA shows. If I can look at it and tell it's bad in my limited experience, it must be really, really bad.

And excessive use of the whip.


----------



## Mckellar

Thought of another one, people who spur a horse causing open cuts. Yep I have seen this first hand. Reasoning... Horse is lazy, personally I would have taken a crop and used that to wake up the horse instead of scraping its sides with the spurs/ digging in because her big a** couldn't balance. Oh another one nothing against this but riders who are too big for their horses and try to compete in jumping who because of their size can not balance themselves. My friend is a bigger girl and is a BEAUTIUL rider but I see one girl at shows who's obese. No lie her thigh would be larger than my waist. And she is shorter than me i would guess shes about 5'1-5'2 and well close to 200lbs. and jumping she falls and really hits the saddle, the horse is not happy. She's bouncing around and can not ride let alone jump she can't get out of the saddle into a 2 point. She is unhealthy over weight and I'm sorry but your horse is an athlete so you should be to. I'm not saying go to the gym 4 hours a day but be reasonable and be aware your lifestyle is 1- not healthy and 2- your not being fair to your horse. 

Her coach got on and the horse jumped beautifully! It's a shame, at a show she chose to dig into a bag of chips while everyone else ate fruit and veggies. Sorry but it really bugs me, I was overweight ( not obese ) so I've been on both sides. I am slim some would say skinny but I work out and I believe in being strong and healthy. I want my horse in top physical shape then I should be too. 

That's not possible for a lot of people because of time restraints BUT be healthy! It's good for you! 

Ps: that was not to offend anyone it's just something that really bothers me, and again I have seen bigger girls who ride 100x better than me but I'm saying obese way overweight.


----------



## faye

Almond Joy said:


> So, in this picture, is this horse using his hind end more/is he collected? *Confused*
> This is really OT


Not that OT. yes he is using his back end more, he has lifted his back up under the saddle and his inside hind leg is coming further forwards and he is activly taking up a contact with my hands. I'm not pulling him down into an outline, i'm pushing him UP between my hand and leg. Yes his nose is ever so slightly infront of the verticle but I would not expect more from a horse who has only been under saddle 9 week.

Its not what I would deem as collection merely as going correctly and working through his back. He was not yet at the stage where he was physically strong enough or mentaly ready to start work on true collection.

Everything I've had with that pony has been offered by him, never forced by me. If anyone where to get on him (if he was well enough) then they would find if they did take up a contact he would activly seak it out and work into it. he is very very light in the hand in the plainest of snaffles.


----------



## Endiku

I largely ignore the riding of other people and concentrate on my horse, but a few things that DO bother me are people who ride right up on my horse's butt, cut in front of me and slow down, flap like Chickens, or go around at 100 miles an hour while not controlling their animal >.>


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

Re: the helmet thing. Sorry guys, but helmets are NOT safety equipment, NOR do they make you any safer when riding. A helmet will not prevent a spook, a fall, or a bad fall into something. A helmet will only work to protect your head if you fall AND if you hit your head. And on that note, in talking to nurses I know that have worked in ER, they see markedly more neck and back injuries in riders than head injuries. So to those of you harping, where are your body protectors and neck braces?? A helmet doesn't even protect your whole head!! And most of them leave the most venerable part of your spine and head exposed, right where the head and neck meet!!!

In order to ride safely, we need to use our heads, not just protect them and hope sh*t never hits the fan. Proper riding attire (boots, breeches, gloves, etc..), riding a horse within your skill level, bombproofing or de spooking work, riding within your limits, learning how to ride AND fall off, etc.. are all going to make you safer when riding. Helmets are just a risk mitigation measure, PPE or Personal Protective Equipment. They will protect you if you fall. For some of us, we feel the risk of falling is not high enough to warrant wearing a helmet, that's our prerogative. In most countries if you run available stats for dressage riders (or those that do flatwork, no trails, no jumping, no speed events, etc..) and head injuries (any thing ranging from a bump on the noggin to full on coma/death) and compare them to driving fatalities, you should find similar results. If I'm willing to drive to/from the barn for an hour a day and have the same chance of DYING in a motor vehicle as I do sustaining anything from a bump on the noggin to death from falling off my horse, I'll take my chances with the horse! 

If you want to tell me to ride a helmet, that's awesome, but then expect me to ask you about your fall training, riding training, safety measures taken when riding, de spooking procedures and where your body protector and neck brace are. Based on the amounts of rides I've had on my horse I have a 0.07% chance of falling off while jumping and an even lower chance of falling during flatwork/dressage work, especially considering the increased age, training and de spook work done on the horse and assuming even 50% of falls involve the head, a 0.004% chance of sustaining a head injury while riding my own horse. This compared to a 0.009% traffic fatality rate in my area, and a 0.5% injury collision rate, I'll take my chance with the horse, regardless of if I'm wearing a helmet or not the risk, to me, is too small to matter.


----------



## jaydee

*safety*



~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Re: the helmet thing. Sorry guys, but helmets are NOT safety equipment, NOR do they make you any safer when riding. A helmet will not prevent a spook, a fall, or a bad fall into something. A helmet will only work to protect your head if you fall AND if you hit your head. And on that note, in talking to nurses I know that have worked in ER, they see markedly more neck and back injuries in riders than head injuries. So to those of you harping, where are your body protectors and neck braces?? A helmet doesn't even protect your whole head!! And most of them leave the most venerable part of your spine and head exposed, right where the head and neck meet!!!
> 
> In order to ride safely, we need to use our heads, not just protect them and hope sh*t never hits the fan. Proper riding attire (boots, breeches, gloves, etc..), riding a horse within your skill level, bombproofing or de spooking work, riding within your limits, learning how to ride AND fall off, etc.. are all going to make you safer when riding. Helmets are just a risk mitigation measure, PPE or Personal Protective Equipment. They will protect you if you fall. For some of us, we feel the risk of falling is not high enough to warrant wearing a helmet, that's our prerogative. In most countries if you run available stats for dressage riders (or those that do flatwork, no trails, no jumping, no speed events, etc..) and head injuries (any thing ranging from a bump on the noggin to full on coma/death) and compare them to driving fatalities, you should find similar results. If I'm willing to drive to/from the barn for an hour a day and have the same chance of DYING in a motor vehicle as I do sustaining anything from a bump on the noggin to death from falling off my horse, I'll take my chances with the horse!
> 
> If you want to tell me to ride a helmet, that's awesome, but then expect me to ask you about your fall training, riding training, safety measures taken when riding, de spooking procedures and where your body protector and neck brace are. Based on the amounts of rides I've had on my horse I have a 0.07% chance of falling off while jumping and an even lower chance of falling during flatwork/dressage work, especially considering the increased age, training and de spook work done on the horse and assuming even 50% of falls involve the head, a 0.004% chance of sustaining a head injury while riding my own horse. This compared to a 0.009% traffic fatality rate in my area, and a 0.5% injury collision rate, I'll take my chance with the horse, regardless of if I'm wearing a helmet or not the risk, to me, is too small to matter.


 I think you may be on the wrong thread here as the responses were not to do with wearing helmets as such but the young persons attitude to people who cared enough about her to ask her to wear one. Please dont misunderstand me when I say that as I dont know you it doesn't matter in the slightest to me if you choose to wear a hat or not as if you fall on your head and injure yourself then its not going to have any impact on my life whatsoever. However based on my own experiences it DOES matter to me if one of my close friends or family choose not too because I'd rather not see them end up as I did, however I don't think any the less of them if they don't wear one and they all know that when I say I wish they would wear one it because I care about them and not because I've joined the 'helmet police'.
You're very lucky that you are always able to 'plan your falls' so well that you never injure yourself but not everyone is so fortunate. 
I have been driving since I was 17 and never had a single car accident, I have been in one very minor accident where someone else was driving and another vehicle ran into them but no one was hurt. That doesn't mean that based on my own statistics I wont go out in my car tomorrow and be totally safe because I am obviously so good at avoiding accidents that I will never have one, I could just be in the wrong place at the wrong time and be fatally injured. I have had many falls of horses but thats probably because I've been inclined to participate in higher risk horse riding where things can go wrong regardless of how good you or your horse are.
No one here is telling you or anyone else to wear a helmet - thats your choice, what we are saying is please understand the motives behind those people around you that are just being caring instead of rearing up the way you just have.


----------



## FreeDestiny

Well, I don't know if this would be a 'riding' habit, but I'll chip in.

People who come and take your horse from under you. I know the mare I ride isn't mine, but I've been working with her for over a year, building her confidence and earning her trust, and it's my first time being able to show her. At our last show we pulled champion and reserve in some hunter divisions, the reason being that she trusts me and I know how to ride her, and now everyone wants to ride her, and I feel as though I'm being pulled off of her. People with their own horses are asking to take her to shows. Just irks me a little.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## faye

Freedestiny, unfortunatly that is what you have to put up with when the horse isnt yours. 
I've ridden other peoples horses for many years and it is heartbreaking whenthey are sold out fromunder you. However you just have to pick yourself up and et on with the next horse.

anebel having had a helmet save my life twice i will respectfully disagree with you. I also know a lady who died because she wasnt wearing a hat on her aincient old pony and said pony tripped, she fell cracked her skull on a rock and died.
Mum is also a nurse who worked for 30 years in A&E and intensive care units. We currently own a unit for the elderly mentaly ill. she says that since the safety helmet was invented she has seen a massive decrease in the number ofhead injures due to horse riding. we currently have a gentleman in our unit who has ahead injury due to a fall from a horse (no hat) and is now totaly incapable of feelin pain, of knowing right from wrong and has to be watched 24hours a day, he has to wear nappies and have his **** cleaned like a baby because he no longer reconises that it is wrong to wet and soil himself.

Now i'm not going to tell you to wear a hat but I do judge those who don't wear one. i think they are incredibly selfish and have no regard for their loved ones who will have to care for them or cope with their death if something goes wrong (and any horse no matter how old or well schooled a horse can still trip). I find it akin to those who commit suicide. I dont wear a neck brace because your neck needs to be able to flex properly to avoid snapping.
I have been trained to fall correctly and I do wear a body protector but find that it affects my balance and makes me round my shoulders.


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

But sustaining the same injury in a car injury is too bad, so sad? Or becoming a parapalegic falling and breaking your neck?

Double standard and undue judgement, I say. My training from industry tells me that proper training and safety procedures are paramount in safety and that I should be able to send guys into the mine and have them never need their PPE because of the training and procedures. I feel its the same in riding, however its a hobby not my job and if I've already mitigated enough risk I won't wear my helmet. Those that judge me will get judgement back from me. I know I could have a wreck and get a head injury, but I also know that I have a better chance of dying driving on the roads to the barn on black ice in the winter and right beside a licenced casino with less than sober clientele. If you're going to harp on people for not wearing helmets you yourself better know your risk in everything. Hay bales have paralyzed lots of people. Farm machinery, slips on ice, hoses in walk ways, walking beside a busy road, alcohol consumption and doing anything, etc... all have associated risks which a lot of people seem not to notice but which may be higher than a fall off a horse. Yet those that harp on non helmet wearers will have a beer on a trail ride, haul their own hay, walk to get their horse in winter without a helmet and run an oat roller without gloves. It annoys me when someone says "wear a helmet" and then does these things. Life is dangerous. Learn to mitigate risk and accept it or live like chicken little, don't walk the line between because then you're a hypocrite.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## faye

anebel, they should never need PPE because of thier training, however amine does not have a mind of its own. Accidents still happen in mines despite all safety precautions you can take, you wear PPE just in case this happens. 
Your miners may have all the training to never need thier ppe but i bet you'd neverlet them down the mine without it? so why do you do it when riding

I would judge the person in the car accident the same way if they had not been wearing a seatbelt or if they were speeding or drink driving etc.

I drive the best car i can afford, it has airbags and I wear a seatbelt even if i'm going nowhere near a road. Infact it feels wrong to not wear a seatbelt and is totaly illgeal in the UK. I do this because I value my safety and take every precaution I can to minimise the risk that way should soemthing happen to me i know i've done my level best to minimise my injuries. I care about my family and how they will feel should i be badly injured.

i recognise that riding is a risk sport but you need to minimise the risk as far as possible


----------



## Fudgelove

I hate the "yankers" as i call them who i see in 4-h a lot and congress who dont collect their horses they just yank yank yank to get their heads down instead of working them into a long and low position which is looked for. The they wonder why their horses buck and need crazy harsh bits. I think its cruel, lazy, and looks awful.


----------



## Fudgelove

prinella said:


> riders especially at shows who clearly have no concept of moving with their horses mouth. So instead pile on the gadgets and take them off just before a class yanking and see sawing on the horses mouth if the head comes up.
> 
> Or worse those that the horses remain hiding behind the bit and they think that's great!
> _posted via mobile device_


 amen!!


----------



## PaintedHeart

I don't really notice faults in other people while riding, mainly because I'm too busy trying to fix my own many errors, lol. The way I see it, we all have to start somewhere.

That being said, I'm pretty hard on myself when it comes to errors. My biggest thing right now is that my toes have started pointing out (first time in over two years of riding, grr...). 


One thing that _does_ bug me is when people refuse to listen to anyone's advice. On the flip side, people who feel the need to nitpick your riding without knowing you or your horse frustrate me, too. Helpful advice is one thing, but I have an instructor to nitpick me, thank you. 

There was one girl at my barn who would sit there on her horse and watch me ride (whenever my instructor wasn't around, of course). She would comment on every little thing, always telling me I was doing it wrong, never telling me how to fix it. 
Best thing? She refused to take advice from anyone else, and got extremely mad whenever anyone offered a helpful critique of her own riding.


----------



## emeraldstar642

faye said:


> Now i'm not going to tell you to wear a hat but I do judge those who don't wear one. i think they are incredibly selfish and have no regard for their loved ones who will have to care for them or cope with their death if something goes wrong (and any horse no matter how old or well schooled a horse can still trip). I find it akin to those who commit suicide. I dont wear a neck brace because your neck needs to be able to flex properly to avoid snapping.


I agree with you about the helmet thing, but please do not bring suicide into the matter. It is an entirely different thing completely and you are not one to judge if you've never been on the other end of it.


----------



## faye

a good friend of mine comitted suicide and having seen the total devistation it left in her family and amongst her friends, I do think any suicide is an incredibly selfish act, perticularly with all the help that is available now!


----------



## jaydee

*accidents*



faye said:


> anebel, they should never need PPE because of thier training, however amine does not have a mind of its own. Accidents still happen in mines despite all safety precautions you can take, you wear PPE just in case this happens.
> Your miners may have all the training to never need thier ppe but i bet you'd neverlet them down the mine without it? so why do you do it when riding
> 
> I would judge the person in the car accident the same way if they had not been wearing a seatbelt or if they were speeding or drink driving etc.
> 
> I drive the best car i can afford, it has airbags and I wear a seatbelt even if i'm going nowhere near a road. Infact it feels wrong to not wear a seatbelt and is totaly illgeal in the UK. I do this because I value my safety and take every precaution I can to minimise the risk that way should soemthing happen to me i know i've done my level best to minimise my injuries. I care about my family and how they will feel should i be badly injured.
> 
> i recognise that riding is a risk sport but you need to minimise the risk as far as possible


I'm with you on this Faye. Pretty sure you wear safety helmets in mines and on building sites to protect you from the risk of falling objects anyway - not because some idiot thinks its a good idea to run headlong into a wall or something. Accidents are things that are usually out of our control and so not always possible to prepare ourselves for in terms of 'falling correctly' There are many things that we do in life that we can't protect ourselves against, we cant wrap ourselves in cotton wool 24/7 Riding is a high risk sport and if I can keep my brain a little safer then I will do that based on my own experiences which I am always happy to share as it was my 'wake up call' that thankfully I was able to walk away from (well on a stretcher actually). If other people dont want to then basically not my problem I just wish that some of them didn't feel the need to go on and on to justify their decision - you dont have to, its your choice, your life, most of us dont care why you dont wear a helmet so move on and enjoy your riding.
Love to Britain. Has it stopped raining yet?


----------



## BlueSpark

Good example of an accident,

I was riding my fantastic trail mare along a trail. There were two large logs laying at angles across the trail. We walked over the first, and I leaned slightly forward to give her her head. at the same time she randomly decided to jump(not a horse that jumps if she can walk) and flung her head back. The hard back of her skull hit my forhead(covered by a helmet), her neck smashed into my face. it ended up being blood all over and me have a very sore face for a week. If I had not been wearing a helmet i'm certain it would have knocked me out, and at the very least a severe concussion..

just be safe. an accidental death hurts almost as much as a suicide.


----------



## AbbeyCPA

When people use a pelham or elevator bit to put their horse "on the bit".

Piano hands.

People who pile on an unnecessary amount of equipment on a horse that doesn't need it. 

No release o/f.

Riders who "bob" their heads with the horses movement.

See-sawing.

People who come at a fence with their horses head cranked into it's chest, then beat the stuff out of them when they refuse.


----------



## BlueSpark

> People who come at a fence with their horses head cranked into it's chest, then beat the stuff out of them when they refuse.


With you on that one:evil: Ask for a stop when you mean go, then beat them when they cant telepathically read your mind. Classic.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

All of these I have personally done and I loathe:

Another one is failing to hold a dressage whip the right way and ending up smacking the horse with it on accident *sigh*

Looking down and watching your horse... why?!

Loose tight contact.. which jabs the horse in the mouth.


----------



## MHFoundation Quarters

The habit that bothers me the most - those that are critical of others without taking a look at themselves first. 

In all honesty I don't care how others around me ride unless they are a danger to themselves, their horse or those around them. Life's too short to get in a huff about what other people screw up.


----------



## LikeIke17

See-sawing to get the horse "on the bit".

Piano hands. 

When I see horses refuse and the riders never react. They just sit there. DO SOMETHING.

Or, most of all, when people are in classes WAY over their ability. Then get ****ed when they don't do well.

All about the winning. Never about being better. Just winning.


----------



## faye

jaydee, nope it is still raining, I'm thinking of building an ark!

We still have hosepipe bans in place down south though (stupid thames water, they have more leaks then pipes).
They are calling it the wettest drought in history!
It is officialy the wettest june on record!


----------



## emeraldstar642

faye said:


> a good friend of mine comitted suicide and having seen the total devistation it left in her family and amongst her friends, I do think any suicide is an incredibly selfish act, perticularly with all the help that is available now!


Of course suicide does affect many people and maybe is a little selfish, and while I do not encourage it by any means I do not believe in judging people for things like that. I know what it is like first hand to be on the other side, to struggle with depression and extreme suicidal thoughts and wanting more than anything else in the world to die, and getting help is literally one of the hardest things to do. Probably the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. You don't know what it's like to be on that end of things, you have no idea what your friend's past is, and you have no idea what it feels like to want to die that badly. So unless you've been in that position, it is truly not your place to judge.

Besides, your friend probably felt hated and looked down upon through life, and now she/he's hated and looked down upon through death too. After all she/he has been through, the least you could do is remember her/him in a positive way. If you feel that strongly about suicide, then maybe you should look into actually helping people with it instead of judging them from afar.

Anyways, I'm not meaning to be rude. I just feel very strongly about the matter since I have a lot of history with things like this and much of my family does as well. Don't get me wrong -- I don't think suicide is a good thing AT ALL, I just believe that you should not judge one so harshly when you don't know what they've been through. I'd appreciate it if you didn't bring up in such a light.


----------



## faye

emeraldstar, do not presume that i have not been in that position. I have been there I know how I felt at that point but I got myself back and I sorted myself out (with medical help), actualy I would say my pony (stan) got me through some of the darkest of those days.

My friends past:
She was a very wealthy young girl, extremely popular at school, private schools (£20k a year), univeristy education. Happy bubbly girl who had everything in the world going for her, never been bullied, no abuse at home etc. she went into the garden one day and hung herself. I knew her since she was 3 yrs old, she was 21 when she died
Her mother then had a break down, her father drunk himself to death and her sister ended up in councelling for many years. All of her friends feel very guilty that she obviously didnt feel that she could talk to us, there were no signs, no warning signals, no one picked up on anything.

Suicide is aan extremly selfish act and there is no changing my oppinion on that.


----------



## wetrain17

When people dont carry their crops across their thighs.


----------



## emeraldstar642

faye said:


> emeraldstar, do not presume that i have not been in that position. I have been there I know how I felt at that point but I got myself back and I sorted myself out (with medical help), actualy I would say my pony (stan) got me through some of the darkest of those days.
> 
> My friends past:
> She was a very wealthy young girl, extremely popular at school, private schools (£20k a year), univeristy education. Happy bubbly girl who had everything in the world going for her, never been bullied, no abuse at home etc. she went into the garden one day and hung herself. I knew her since she was 3 yrs old, she was 21 when she died
> Her mother then had a break down, her father drunk himself to death and her sister ended up in councelling for many years. All of her friends feel very guilty that she obviously didnt feel that she could talk to us, there were no signs, no warning signals, no one picked up on anything.
> 
> Suicide is aan extremly selfish act and there is no changing my oppinion on that.


In that case I apologize for assuming that you have not been in that position. However, I still stand with my opinion. The fact that there were no warning signs is an exact proof of what I am saying. I doubt she was thinking "I want attention and I want my family to suffer so I'm going to kill myself" when she did it. She had probably been going through extreme battles in her mind and a lot of internal suffering for whatever reason before she did it. Also she probably wasn't thinking logically. And the fact that everyone saw her as a bubbly, happy girl with everything going for her was probably why she never told anyone. A smile hides a lot.

There are many medical issues such as depression, bipolar, anxiety, etc. that come without a reason or warning and can have nothing to do with a past of abuse or bullying. It all has to do with a chemical imbalance in the brain. Mood disorders like these can come suddenly, randomly, and for no reason at all. So when I say you have no idea what she's been through, I mean outside AND in. You don't know what she was thinking or what was going on inside her head. Also just because she didn't tell anyone doesn't mean nothing happened. A lot of things could have happened. How do you know she wasn't raped? Abused in a past relationship? Emotionally abused but never told anyone? Maybe she was. Or maybe not. You never know. But that's just the point. You don't know, so don't judge.


----------



## Snizard93

I know this is a very tough, sensitive subject that has arisen, but come on guys, this isn't the place. This was supposed to be a light hearted, fun thread...


----------



## jaydee

*bad habits*



Skyseternalangel said:


> All of these I have personally done and I loathe:
> 
> Another one is failing to hold a dressage whip the right way and ending up smacking the horse with it on accident *sigh*
> 
> Looking down and watching your horse... why?!
> 
> Loose tight contact.. which jabs the horse in the mouth.


My husband (as a child) once poked himself in the eye with his riding whip and had to complete the round of jumps with one eye closed. he also once swallowed a pair of nail clippers so sort of says everything about him


----------



## BubblesBlue

Something I call "motorcycle arms". it's when your reins are way way too long and the rider has to pull the reins all the way up to their chin just to get the horse to do something.
It's not exactly a bad habit but I hate seeing it.


----------



## jaydee

*bad habits & pet peeves*



Snizard93 said:


> I know this is a very tough, sensitive subject that has arisen, but come on guys, this isn't the place. This was supposed to be a light hearted, fun thread...


 Please lets get back on course here as these things have no bearing now on anything to do with pet riding peeves
How is Kent? I also once lived there and liked the county very much. Happy days!!!


----------



## emeraldstar642

jaydee said:


> Please lets get back on course here as these things have no bearing now on anything to do with pet riding peeves
> How is Kent? I also once lived there and liked the county very much. Happy days!!!


Yeah, I guess you guys are right............................................


----------



## 4everiding

Riding for sport instead of for the love of horses is an increasing habit that bothers the heck out of me.

Remember, no two horses are the same, no two riders are the same, and no two trainers will teach the EXACT same equitation. When watching someone ride, don't judge his or her "equitation" (I hate that word), decide whether the riding is FUNCTIONAL to that horse. To me, there is nothing more pleasing to see a rider who rides functionally to the horse he or she is riding.


----------



## faye

Last time I checked Jaydee Kent was under water!


----------



## Snizard93

We're doing okay now! :lol:


----------



## SHINE LIMITED

My thing is people who are inconsistant with what they expect from a horse and or discipline. They ignore or encourage behavior then one day in a bad mood suddenly its irritating or unaccceptable. This sets a horse up for constant anxiety and its so unfair to them.In a bad mood and can't control yourself admit it and stay off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MudPaint

Riders just standing in the irons, toes down, body in front of the pommel and hands at the withers 3 strides out and over the fence at a competition.... your trainer should be shot every time you topple off your horse. Perhaps that's more kids being pushed to levels beyond their safety. Grr...


----------



## MudPaint

Skyseternalangel said:


> All of these I have personally done and I loathe:
> 
> Another one is failing to hold a dressage whip the right way and ending up smacking the horse with it on accident *sigh*
> 
> Looking down and watching your horse... why?!
> 
> Loose tight contact.. which jabs the horse in the mouth.



Yea... who would have thought a large majority of my lessons have been how to hold the whip. Something about it just eludes me.


----------



## Amstel

Yank/crank/see-saw on the reins. Usually in an attempt to get the head down... Irks me to no end. First because it's plain bad horsemanship, and second because it's totally counterproductive.

Number two on my list is kick-kick-kick/poke-poke-poke at every step with spurs. If you think spurs are for kicking/poking, you should consider taking them off until you've been enlightened as to their actual purpose. Or maybe you should just take up curling. Or something.


----------



## jaydee

*stirrups*



MudPaint said:


> Riders just standing in the irons, toes down, body in front of the pommel and hands at the withers 3 strides out and over the fence at a competition.... your trainer should be shot every time you topple off your horse. Perhaps that's more kids being pushed to levels beyond their safety. Grr...


I hate to see that too. I think its because people use them like pedals on a bike - maybe more riding without stirrups or even bareback would be a solution?


----------



## ChipsAhoy

I cannot stand it when people do anything to force a horses head down. Doesn't matter if it's tight draw reins, yanking/see sawing etc. It just irks me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EquineCookies

- People who use spurs for all the wrong reasons - also use them incorrectly, period.
- Loose contact with unsteady hands... poor horse gets the bit jabbed in its mouth.
- People who don't know how to hold crops correctly.
- people expecting WAAAAY too much of their green/inexperienced horses.
- Excessive, unnecessary yanking and see-sawing - especially with a harsher bit.

All I can think of for now, I may post more later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tasia

faye said:


> emeraldstar, do not presume that i have not been in that position. I have been there I know how I felt at that point but I got myself back and I sorted myself out (with medical help), actualy I would say my pony (stan) got me through some of the darkest of those days.
> 
> My friends past:
> She was a very wealthy young girl, extremely popular at school, private schools (£20k a year), univeristy education. Happy bubbly girl who had everything in the world going for her, never been bullied, no abuse at home etc. she went into the garden one day and hung herself. I knew her since she was 3 yrs old, she was 21 when she died
> Her mother then had a break down, her father drunk himself to death and her sister ended up in councelling for many years. All of her friends feel very guilty that she obviously didnt feel that she could talk to us, there were no signs, no warning signals, no one picked up on anything.
> 
> Suicide is aan extremly selfish act and there is no changing my oppinion on that.


I don't mean I liked the story but I share your opinion.


----------



## Palomine

Chair seat, drives me up a wall.

And the new tendency to lean way back, makes it look like they are giving birth.

Toes pointing down doesn't thrill me either.


----------



## EvilHorseOfDoom

Tasia said:


> I don't mean I liked the story but I share your opinion.


Not to drag us O/T again but... as a person with mental health issues (bipolar II) I can tell you that when someone is genuinely suicidal it isn't "my life is ****" or "if I do this then everyone will feel bad about how they treated me", it is (or was for me and others I know) "I'm ****, I fail everyone who needs me and the world would be a better place if I weren't here hurting people" - not at all logical, but the view you have of yourself is so warped that you can't see how your death could possibly be anything but good riddance.

For me, nothing would trigger it - wasn't anything anyone said to me or anything that happened during the day, but after a time of crazy happiness or high anxiety this horrible weight would descend with alarming speed, and within an hour I'd be trying to end it all. After medication went somewhat disastrously (paranoia, blurring of reality etc) I ended up developing a "survival kit" which I can honestly say saved my life. 

So while it might seem completely senseless and selfish to those looking on, mental illness twists everything and genuinely depressed people (not drama llamas) are in a personal hell that only they can see.

(Sorry mods, just thought I had a duty to weigh in on the matter )

Back on topic, not exactly a bad habit but people riding when they're in a bad mood really annoys me - they get frustrated and either quit at the wrong point or take out their mood on the horse. I generally see this with spoiled kids who are too obviously being pushed by their parents, or people who have forgotten why they liked riding in the first place and have developed an obsession about winning ribbons at all costs.


----------



## Centaurheart

This isn't really a bad riding habit, but it breaks my heart anyhow, and I don't even have kids or are involved in 4h. Yet I still see it.

I really really dislike seeing privileged 4h kids hop on a horse that they see a few times a year for shows that cost tens of thousands of dollars while other 4h kids who ride their couple hundred dollar horses every day get just flat out beat day in and day out at these 4h shows. Ugh! That makes me crazy mad every time!

I think that's bad form for parents all the way around. 4h is about projects, learning to do things, and well the four h's! I wish people would make it more about the journey than the win.


----------



## uflrh9y

I think it depends. A lot of these bad habits are usually things new riders do and one can't very well fault someone if they don't know better. 

The only thing that irks me is kids who don't want to ride but their parents make them. There is a little girl at the barn who you can tell she is so not interested. She complains a lot and constantly asks if the lesson is over. Her mom makes her go and she really wants her to show and ride. That to me is sad. I am happy to live vicariously through my daughter, lol, because I love horses and she does too. But if she ever disliked it and wanted to stop, of course I wouldn't make her do it.


----------



## TexanFreedom

A rider with a hollowed out, arched back. It's one of my pet peeves, I hate when people even walk like this. My 8yr old little sister does this normally, and I am always trying to correct her. 

When people yank *really* hard on the reins, and I mean, really yank. It just makes me cringe. 

And I can't think of anything else


----------



## pepsipop

puppy paws

overbitting is a real issue for me

toes turned out 

gripping knees 

hopping in a saddle

crying on a pony

blaming ponies for bad rider mistakes

tense seats(relax the *** people)

hupping over jumps (shouting hup at every jump does not make a pony jump infact this distracts a pony)

whips and spurs with kids (they over use them pony gets whacked at just about every stride)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## blue eyed pony

Pepsipop I'm one of those HUP-pers... I find it can be a cue to the horse to jump, and how loud you HUP is directly proportional to the size of the jump. I don't do it ALL the time... I do it so that IF my horse were to go blind, or almost blind, or if he were to lose an eye (they lose their depth perception with only one eye), I wouldn't have to quit jumping him. I would be able to SAFELY cue him when and how high to jump.

It can also be used as an encouragement for a less-than-eager jumper.

If I ever video myself riding a course over fences, you'll hear me shouting at my horse the whole way through! STEADY, that's it, good boy, CANTER CANTER CANTER COME ON GET UP HUP good boy STEADYYY... bahahaha it's mostly so I can keep myself breathing, especially when the jumps are at the upper range of my confidence. My horse refuses if I drop him before a fence and talking to him is the best way of reinforcing that I am still with him, even if my legs and hands are saying otherwise.


----------



## jaydee

*pet peeves - guilty as charged*



blue eyed pony said:


> Pepsipop I'm one of those HUP-pers... I find it can be a cue to the horse to jump, and how loud you HUP is directly proportional to the size of the jump. I don't do it ALL the time... I do it so that IF my horse were to go blind, or almost blind, or if he were to lose an eye (they lose their depth perception with only one eye), I wouldn't have to quit jumping him. I would be able to SAFELY cue him when and how high to jump.
> 
> It can also be used as an encouragement for a less-than-eager jumper.
> I have to put my hand up to this one too. I teach my horses to jump on the lunge so I say 'hup' to them at the ideal take off point and then this carries on into ridden work and somehow hangs around but then I also talk non-stop to my horses off and in the saddle. I once rode a terribly spooky horse that I used to sing too out on hacks and it seemed to work as she stopped all the nonsense - most likely because she figured out if she stopped spooking I stopped singing as I have a seriously awful voice its the most likely thing
> Have to agree on the crying thing though, at a show we went to recently I was disgusted to see several children who didn't win actually crying in the ring Poor sportsmanship even at that age They should be there for fun and happy to be just doing the best they can with their pony even if they dont get a first prize


----------



## DancingArabian

I hate when people don't teach their horse manners then are baffled about why their horse is in their space, dragging them around and stopping on a ride to eat.

I hate when people ride their horse but once a week and blame the horse for not winning.

I hate when someone is trying to turn their nonQH untrained horse into a (insert western discipline here) without knowing what they're doing or getting help (you don't get your walker to trot by telling TROT and following it up with a good kick)

I hate it when people only want to trail ride yet still expect their horse to game and show (when its not already trained)

Hm and I hate when people complain about their riding ability and try to teach themselves something they're not experienced in or worse outright refuse help
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Saranda

Not exactly bad riding habits, rather poor sportsmanship. I hate when I sometimes see at shows that parents of children (and sometimes even teenagers) that have showed a less than satisfactory result go to argue with the judges and try to make the results of their snugglepuffs higher. Low and unprofessional in every possible way.


----------

