# I missed watching shows because I'm intolerant



## GamingGrrl (Jan 16, 2013)

A local fair had Mexican Dancing horses and it took every ounce of restraint I had not to rip them of their horses. Their ears were all pinned and several were bucking while "dancing" and the riders were just laughing at them. I had to leave, and I felt sick for hours afterwards.
I've seen some sad looking horses at playdays and shows. If its really bad like someone riding a limping horse, I report it. If its metal tiedowns, peanut rollers, gigantic metal contraption bits, I just keep my comments for when I'm in the truck on the way home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

I think weve all had our share of watching.. er.. people do thinkgs we dont agree with-- i like to see people do things wrong sometimes- reminds me to be a better equestrian and to learn from others mistakes. 

I seen a woman at an aqha reining event one year slapping her horse on the neck with the end of the reins (hard) to get him to spin faster-- she was hangin around a lot of guys- one of those 'i can be tough like a man' deals-- i wanted to grab her leg push it up and flip her off that horse and slap her around with the reins-- i didnt but in my own mind i did.. lotta times! Lol.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Slapping a horse with reins? Not so bad. Certainly not even as harsh as a crop, and better the rein than more spur, at least, IMO. Certainly not anything in comparison to the above posters. You never spank your horse?


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

franknbeans said:


> Slapping a horse with reins? Not so bad. Certainly not even as harsh as a crop, and better the rein than more spur, at least, IMO. Certainly not anything in comparison to the above posters. You never spank your horse?


I agree-- slapping a horse on the neck with the reins aint bad-- whoopin them in the throat repeatedly to the point the horse is jerkin his head away and scared to open his eye is a little too much for me-- for no reason- because the woman wanted to look cool. 


Nope never spanked a horse-- ive slapped one that needed repremanded- that horse didnt do anything except everything the woman asked-- maybe she was mad at him for being such a good horse? :lol:  i think the guys she was with was _egg_ing her on too.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

No offense meant, but you have no idea if the horse was doing what it was supposed to or not. Perhaps the horse was giving a half effort. Might have looked good to you, but the rider knew the horse could do better. I hesitate to judge, unless it is out and out abuse like the TWH crap.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

franknbeans said:


> Slapping a horse with reins? Not so bad. Certainly not even as harsh as a crop, and better the rein than more spur, at least, IMO. Certainly not anything in comparison to the above posters. You never spank your horse?


Hmmm no one wants to see me over and under a horse.....I've slapped my horse on the shoulder with the reins during a spin as I'm 5ft tall and can't get my leg that far forward like my more gifted 6ft friends.....


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

To the OP - when I see something 'odd' at a show (and I say 'odd' in a WTH are they doing way) I try to figure out what they're doing, why they're doing it and to what end and I've seen some pretty crazy stuff.....how about the guy who shows up with 6" leather guards attached to his back cinch because he's hiding spur holes on his horse.......


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

franknbeans said:


> No offense meant, but you have no idea if the horse was doing what it was supposed to or not. Perhaps the horse was giving a half effort. Might have looked good to you, but the rider knew the horse could do better. I hesitate to judge, unless it is out and out abuse like the TWH crap.



none taken-- if it was doing something wrong i agree spanking for the right reason-- for the spin the neck needs to be straight and her throat slapping made the neck bend incorrectly.. I think she was one of them bunnies on someone elses horse.. Id sure be mad if she was on my horse, lol.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I have a hard time watching the WP shows with the peanut rolling and the odd gaits. I find it hard to understand the attraction. But, it must be there and it must be enjoyable or people wouldn't do it. And the horses are usually ok. 

It's always hard to see someone discipline a horse in ANGER. that's just being spiteful and even brutal. You do occasionally see folks who really go after a horse, long past the point of the horse giving in and paying attention and trying harder. Now it's just trying to escape an unrelenting attack .


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I actually have a really difficult time watching a spoiled kid get off and yank a horse around for something the kid did. 

Toto-you and I will not agree. I have no issue with someone spanking my horse if he needs it. None. Mostly because noone rides my horse who wouldn't treat him as I do, and he sometimes needs spanking. I would be more upset if they let him slack off or give them crap. And, spanking a neck or shoulder for a spin does not need to move the neck position. Again, without knowing the situation, I would hesitate to judge. That is one place where we differ.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

The worst for me was when I took several of my lesson kids to a "fun" open show. The english was in the AM, western after lunch. We rode, went back to the trailer to eat and get ready to pack up, and we sat there and watched a girl beat the crap out of her horse with a lunge whip and chase him around at a gallop for a full 45 minutes. Then when he was too tired to hold his head up, and could barely stumble along, she tacked him up and went down for her WP class. I was so steamed that my kids had to see that, when it was supposed to be a fun, laid-back event it was all I could do not to go after her and rip her a new one in front of the judges. If you can't ride your horse without utterly exhausting it first, then you certainly don't need to be showing.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

franknbeans said:


> I actually have a really difficult time watching a spoiled kid get off and yank a horse around for something the kid did.
> 
> Toto-you and I will not agree. I have no issue with someone spanking my horse if he needs it. None. Mostly because noone rides my horse who wouldn't treat him as I do, and he sometimes needs spanking. I would be more upset if they let him slack off or give them crap. And, spanking a neck or shoulder for a spin does not need to move the neck position. Again, without knowing the situation, I would hesitate to judge. That is one place where we differ.


Agree-- if the horse needed repremand im OK with that. 

Spanking the neck *did* mess up the neck position- the horse was cowering away (bending the neck away) thats the wrong thing to do- I figure to make up for her wrong seat position, lol. She was more trying to rubberneck him than move his front end.. the spin wasnt right.

I know i aint the judge but its in the open.. im sorry but im judging- and giving people the 'what are you doing' face:think:


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

What I saw was not determined abuse, but to me still was very hard on the horses. Not just one, but two of them were doing it and very proud of what they had accomplished. No doubt it takes some serious training to get a horse to move like that with their nose 6" off the ground. 

I also saw a lady trying VERY hard to do a sitting trot, but all she accomplished in doing was using the reins as a lifeline. At a walk and canter she was OK, not great, but OK. Not hurting the horse anyway. 

What I was mostly amazed at was the fact that I gave up an entire weekend of watching horses and riders, talking to reasonable people and just getting out because I couldn't get over a handful of activities that weren't even atrocious. Yes, they upset me, but 1. there wasn't anything I was going to be able to do about it and 2. the activities weren't harsh enough to warrant reporting.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

No matter what kind of horse event you go to you will more than likely see something that is disturbing. One thing to remember is not to judge the discipline or event as a whole based off of a couple of people doing it incorrectly. It would be like saying that all drivers are bad because one person cut you off. There are just too many riders(or drivers) to make that assumption off of an incident or two. Not saying that anyone here posting so far has made those assumptions but if you do not go in with that thinking you will be frustrated. But there are going to be disciplines or classes you just don't like no matter what 

I will add to what has been said though, on Memorial Day we went to a parade and there was a group of Charros, the horses were very well trained and not the least bit agitated. They were accompanied by a band which they stepped to. It was really neat to watch and done well. I wish I would of had my phone or camera to take pictures, it literally gave me goose bumps, but in a good way!

I agree that smacking one in the eye or neck defeats the purpose of having to use the rein in speeding up or moving the shoulder in the spin, they just end up throwing the head up and way and still dragging the shoulder. Using the spur constantly nagging causes resentment. For me, I set him up, apply the cues, cluck for speed, if I don't get it use the leg, still nothing a slap on the shoulder with the side of my stirrup and still nothing- a rein on the shoulder, not the neck.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

COWCHICK - oh I envy you folk who can reach the shoulder......my friend was telling me 'bump his shoulder, bump his shoulder!!!!!'.......I stopped and said 'look - that's as far as my stumps reach!!!' She says 'oooooooh' !!! LOL:lol:


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I would treat this situation much like a tv show I don't like. I don't make a big stink about it and demand it be removed from the air. I just don't watch it again. If it doesn't float your boat, why watch it.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Yup, MBP, that's why I left. I figured if all I was going to do was focus on the negative I didn't belong there.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I have seen some nasty things. As long as there's no abuse to the horse, even if it's not my cup of tea, it's fine with me. I don't agree with horses trotting on a big 40ft circle on a lunge line for half an hour before a class for example. I much prefer to change directions on a small circle to lunge, yield the hindquarters, send them another way, change directions more, etc. But that's just my way, not everyone's way.

I think riding the WP horses is cool. I don't like them just having their heads cranked down, but a nice low headed smooth WP horse is a wonderful ride even if it's painful for some people to watch. I much prefer a level, relaxed body, head level with the withers and no lower. I like the WP horse to be soft and on the vertical, truly collected instead of heavy on the forehand and head in the dirt.

I watched a big name trainer (Oh how I would love to say his name and b**** about him, as he also lamed up my horse when she was three, but that's another story) who was showing at our Summer Classic show. He had a reining horse who literally had his nose on the dirt, dumping on his forehand, and was nosing out. He was not soft in the bridle, he was not collected, he was flat out rooting out through the bit the entire run and yet he still placed because he is a big name who sponsored the show and he's won a lot of stuff.

Also seen horses come out of barrel runs with bloody sides and bloody lips, which makes me more angry than you can possibly imagine. 

On our HS Equestrian teams here, everyone does every event, regardless if you are actually qualified to do it or not. THAT is painful, let me tell you. The reining, everyone does it, so out of 50+ riders, only three of us had legitimate reining horses. The others broke to the trot for their lead change or flew around on the wrong lead, travelled a good 50ft in their spin, hauled to a front endy stop, kicked their butt out in a rollback, etc. The judges must just be cringing throughout the entire class, just waiting for the people who really want to win to show up.

Don't get me wrong, I love HS Equestrian, but DANG! You could sit and watch for an hour and likely not see one good rider in any given event. You see awesome jumpers entering the cattle events, you see great barrel horses doing dressage, and cart driving ponies walking the barrel pattern. Sure the specialized horses do their events and rock them too, but the odds of you catching the really good riders among 100+ entries, only maybe 30 say being serious about it, are low. :lol:


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

NorthernMama said:


> What I saw was not determined abuse, but to me still was very hard on the horses. Not just one, but two of them were doing it and very proud of what they had accomplished. No doubt it takes some serious training to get a horse to move like that with their nose 6" off the ground.
> 
> *most riding is strenuous, and, IMO WP doesn't even make anywhere near the top of the list. Do you complain when a horse is cutting cows, jumping 5 foot, eventing, or reining? Yes, they look mechanical which I guess to some translates into "painful", but it is far, far, far from abuse! Most of those horses are BRED to go low and slow like that. We had a WP horse at my barn and while he did a 3 beat lope he could make ANYONE look like a rider!*
> 
> ...


Just because one particular discipline might not be your cup of tea doesn't mean you have discredit those who work hard and honestly to be on top of their game!

What is you chosen discipline, if you don't mind me asking?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Saying WP doesn't take skill is foolish.

I've seen horses in every discipline who can make the rider look good even when they're not. Barrel horses, reining horses, jumping horses, all of the above...

The idea behind WP is an invisible cue, just as in dressage. A nice WP horse is hard to come by, one who actually used their body but maintains the desired gait with nearly no cues and a totally slack rein. It takes a long time to get them perfected, and used to the show scene just like any other horse. They aren't born broke to lope around the rail. They still stop, haunch turn, forehand turn, sidepass, flying changes, counter canter, etc, just like any other show horse should.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

SlideStop said:


> Just because one particular discipline might not be your cup of tea doesn't mean you have discredit those who work hard and honestly to be on top of their game!
> 
> What is you chosen discipline, if you don't mind me asking?


I ride western, at home, in the bush, for fun. No showing. No competition. Sometimes on the road. Sometimes for 1/2 hr. Sometimes for several hours. 

I don't have anything against WP at all. I think it's wonderful when done correctly just like any other discipline. And there were some riders and horses there that were easy to watch. What I saw that bothered me was not smooth, was not effortless. I tried to find a similar video to demonstrate, but so far haven't been able to. I'll look again.

Now to your responses:


> most riding is strenuous, and, IMO WP doesn't even make anywhere near the top of the list. Do you complain when a horse is cutting cows, jumping 5 foot, eventing, or reining? Yes, they look mechanical which I guess to some translates into "painful", but it is far, far, far from abuse! Most of those horses are BRED to go low and slow like that. We had a WP horse at my barn and while he did a 3 beat lope he could make ANYONE look like a rider!


I guess you thought that when I said it was "hard on the horse" you thought I meant strenuous. That's not really right insofar as physical exertion. I mean it appeared to be physically "not right." Something like, it is strenuous for a gymnast to complete a floor performance, but it is not right for a gymnast to perform a movement that causes her legs to be at more than 180* (ie. an over-split). Or it is strenuous for a horse to run a race, but it is hard on a horse to run at full speed for over 1/2 hour. Does that make more sense?



> are you blaming WP for this? It sounds like poor coaching to me!! Again, you can find it at any show


No. Not at all. Did I saw I was? Did I even indicate if the lady was riding Western or English? No, I did not. I'm well aware that poor riding skills can be found at any show; as can good skills which is why I like to watch. I agree -- poor coaching for that lady; if she had any at all. Maybe she was learning on her own. I dunno... I didn't ask. I don't like to ask or intervene unless I really feel a need because people quickly get defensive. :? Imagine that.



> its sad that you would think you "wasted your time". I can find something to learn every time I watch a trainer train, ride a new horse or go to a horse show. Yeah, WP is no doubt boring but it take skill!


Where did I say I wasted my time? I didn't. I missed out on some good stuff because I couldn't get my focus away from the bad stuff. So instead, I went home and did a lot of productive and positive stuff there. No time was wasted; an opportunity for me to learn was, solely because of my lack of tolerance. I also don't think WP is boring. And I do think it takes skill.

Wow, where did you get so defensive about WP?


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

*Video examples*

Kind of like this -- go to about :52. What I saw did not have as much head bob, and definitely a overall lower headset. To me this horse just looks MISERABLE and I can't stand to watch it.




 
vs. here at :24 -- the gait still looks awkward to me, but not painful. Keep in mind this video is apparently a novice show, so it's far from perfect, but definitely watchable.


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

It just rubs me the wrong way when people come on here and throw everyone into the same basket. How many times do we have to see threads that say "Reining should be illegal because it messes horses joints up" or "WP is stupid because all you see if horses going slow and standing in their stalls with their heads tied up for 52 hours" or "Ban gaited shows because the horse horses are sored" or "gymkhana ruins horses brains". So, you might have seen a few bad seed. Bad seeds are everywhere. 

If these horses were bored, miserable or in pain they wouldn't be performing like this. I don't see any tail swishing, ear pinning or head shaking. I don't see any horses acting arena sour either. Just because you think they are miserable because it doesn't excite you doesn't make it so. Like I said, (or maybe didn't say, don't remember) we had a "retired" wp horse and he really only wanted to go slow, as slow as you would let him. He WANTED to do what these horses were doing. That was with ZERO wp tuning in years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Well, SlideStop, I am NOT one of those people that throw everyone into the same basket. But it seems like that is precisely what you are doing with me.

I did not state, nor imply, I had a problem with WP in general. I clearly stated that there were TWO horse & rider teams I couldn't watch and ONE other lady that I found mildy distressing. If the entire show had only three riders, that would hardly be a show now would it? And, I didn't state in the OP because I didn't think it was necessary, but the show was multi-discipline. 

Honestly, SlideStop, I feel like you are jumping all over this thread because you are overly defensive about WP. Other posters have indicated they have seen OTHER things that have upset them as well. This thread is NOT about dissing WP. It's about our sensitivity to viewing different things and how each person reacts to what they don't like to see. And no one here, except you, is focusing just on one discipline. 

Just to be clear: NO ONE IS DISSING WP! Chill.


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

I dont think I threw you in a basket, but ok fine, if you say so. 

My apologies, I thought you were using these three riders as examples. I guess I misread your posts. But I still stand be hind the "if there were in pain/miserable statement". 

Quite frankly, I don't give a rats behind about western pleasure. Although I do see the purpose behind it and why it attracts a crowed I really could care less to see horses moving slower then a sloth. It just doesn't rate up there as fun or interesting in my book. I do give them credit though, it is quite an accomplishment to actually get them that slow and steady. 

As for the chilling, I believe you should also! I don't think what I said was enough to get anyone panties in a knot. It's called misunderstanding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

As far as the pain/misery thing - you weren't there; you didn't see the horses I saw and there was plenty of tail swishing going on.

I agree, I wouldn't want to ride that slowly. But it sure is interesting to watch when well done. 

All good now. No more misunderstanding.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Without you knowing the horse, knowing vet statements, chiropractic exams, etc, you have no way of knowing what the tail swishing was from, either. I have an older mare who swishes her tail constantly in the warmup because she's not a fan of other horses. My younger mare just does it because she's fresh. Even a slow moving WP horse can be fresh, even if their natural gait doesn't make it seem so.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

SorrelHorse said:


> Without you knowing the horse, knowing vet statements, chiropractic exams, etc, you have no way of knowing what the tail swishing was from, either. I have an older mare who swishes her tail constantly in the warmup because she's not a fan of other horses. My younger mare just does it because she's fresh. Even a slow moving WP horse can be fresh, even if their natural gait doesn't make it seem so.


I only get on ya because i like ya so dont be offended-- but the horse that was tail swishing wasnt in a warm up pen it was being lunged- like you said about your younger mare- shes fresh lazy and dont wanna do nothin. 

And no animal moves like the horses in wp --not the way they are movin now.. not even close! You slow me a horse thats not trained to move that slow and does it naturally! Not with that broken leg four beat lope theyre doing now.. not with their necks draggin the dirt-- i hear the aqha banned havin a horses head lower than the wither because it aint natural- they want a straight neck not a horse that is bowing.. its not the horses faults but the judges pinnin horses like that aint right! Sorry.


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## GamingGrrl (Jan 16, 2013)

Judges also have to judge what's presented right in front of them though. If they're given a class with only four-beat lopes and hanging heads, they still have to place them in a "best of the worst" situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

Either that or disqualify the lot of them for breaking the rules. I bet THAT would get a reaction.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

apachiedragon said:


> Either that or disqualify the lot of them for breaking the rules. I bet THAT would get a reaction.


Agree! Agree! Agree! :clap:

Ive seen a judge refuse to pin in some classes before-- definitely makes a statement- they call the shots no matter what the aqha says!


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

toto said:


> I only get on ya because i like ya so dont be offended-- but the horse that was tail swishing wasnt in a warm up pen it was being lunged- like you said about your younger mare- shes fresh lazy and dont wanna do nothin.
> 
> And no animal moves like the horses in wp --not the way they are movin now.. not even close! You slow me a horse thats not trained to move that slow and does it naturally! Not with that broken leg four beat lope theyre doing now.. not with their necks draggin the dirt-- i hear the aqha banned havin a horses head lower than the wither because it aint natural- they want a straight neck not a horse that is bowing.. its not the horses faults but the judges pinnin horses like that aint right! Sorry.


Well, if you are familiar with my stand on WP, you would know I advocate for a strong moving, correctly collected, on the vertical and soft horse, without the neck lower than the withers. I do not ever want to see a peanut roller.

However, you can't train that sort of gait into a horse. It has to be bred. Yes, by humans selectively, however you can't take any horse and say "Hmm, I'd like to train it for pleasure" if we could, I'd love to do it with my little cow pony mare, because she is a ROUGH ride!

For example, watch this guy.






Even just free in the pasture Zips Chocolate Chip shows a typical pleasure horse gait. Sure, you can doll it up, slow it down or speed it up in some cases, but that same smooth jog and lope are still bred into that stud.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

While we're talking about it though does anyone wanna talk about hunter under saddle classes these days?

A lot of WP horses also do this event and are able to be more stretched out, though still slower, deliberate, balanced.






This horse, for example, does both.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

I will say this, if I had ridden my hunter class the way that rider in the Hot Diggity Joe video was riding, my trainer would have yanked me off the horse and chased me back to the trailer with a crop.

I am not a fan of the breed show "hunter" classes. They still look like WP horses in English tack to me, just chased around at a faster pace. But again, that's personal, not knocking those that do it and enjoy it.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

SorrelHorse said:


> Well, if you are familiar with my stand on WP, you would know I advocate for a strong moving, correctly collected, on the vertical and soft horse, without the neck lower than the withers. I do not ever want to see a peanut roller.
> 
> However, you can't train that sort of gait into a horse. It has to be bred. Yes, by humans selectively, however you can't take any horse and say "Hmm, I'd like to train it for pleasure" if we could, I'd love to do it with my little cow pony mare, because she is a ROUGH ride!
> 
> ...



I am not familiar-- does anyone want to see a peanut roller ? lol.. yes! Its what the judges are pinning now and will be for a long time even though its been banned by the aqha.

Lol i know who zips chocolate chip is- we have a quarter appy out of his lines- hes naturally 'collected ' mover.

i know thats bred into a horse but the whole 4 beat lope and 'peanut roller' deal is not bred its trained.. i know theyve got natural pleasure gaits but what im gettin at is theyre trained to have a peanut roller headset and a four beat lope-- thats the problem.. the training not the pleasure horse.

The judges need to be pinning the naturally talented horses not the man made ones- thats how you ruin a breed right there! Just like the twh! Theyre breeding them pacey horses with man made gaits and they ride bad unless shod with them big ol pads.. a walker shouldnt pace they walk!! ;-) a quarter horse dont four beat lope about to kick themselves in the chin- they three beat with a level headset!!


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Then we aren't disagreeing on anything...Just clarification.

I don't like bashing anything. I don't appreciate people telling me that my barrel horses are all psycho hot headed idiots, anymore than I appreciate people telling me my old 22 year old pleasure mare I showed as a kid is a "disgusting, unnatural, peanut roller". Both of which I have worked extremely hard with and are happy horses.

That's not to say that my barrel horses aren't hot. Because they are. But that's almost a necessity. That's also not to say that my WP mare (retired), isn't a slow moving horse, but she shows true collection and balance from much work with a trainer in her younger days, before I knew anything about horses except sit up and smile at the judge.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

SorrelHorse said:


> Then we aren't disagreeing on anything...Just clarification.
> 
> I don't like bashing anything. I don't appreciate people telling me that my barrel horses are all psycho hot headed idiots, anymore than I appreciate people telling me my old 22 year old pleasure mare I showed as a kid is a "disgusting, unnatural, peanut roller". Both of which I have worked extremely hard with and are happy horses.
> 
> That's not to say that my barrel horses aren't hot. Because they are. But that's almost a necessity. That's also not to say that my WP mare (retired), isn't a slow moving horse, but she shows true collection and balance from much work with a trainer in her younger days, before I knew anything about horses except sit up and smile at the judge.


Exactly--youns suppose im just hard to understand? Lol. 

dont worry im not bashing wp-- im more 'calling out' the judges- they do make the final call on who gets pinned no matter what the breed association says.

I agree-- barrel horses are crazy- its the training though- thats what most barrel racers want- a crazy and fast horse-- thats what wins you money not a calm lazy horse, lol. 

Aw i miss my younger years- my cousin sworn by usin fire engine red lipstick so the judges could see her smile! :lol:


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Any horse who can keep their mind in any event, is a good one. There's reining horses who go insane circle burning. My Lean With Me mare is exactly like that. She got so fed up doing reining work, I turned her into a barrel horse...And wouldn't you know, suddenly she is winning reining classes again. It's funny how they can tell us what they want.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Question of ignorance here. I know zip about WP. That gait that Zips Chocolate Chip is doing around 2:15 after the lope, is that a western jog?


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

MyBoyPuck said:


> Question of ignorance here. I know zip about WP. That gait that Zips Chocolate Chip is doing around 2:15 after the lope, is that a western jog?


Yes. Thats what western pleasure used to look like. You show up doing that jog there now and you wont even place! :-x


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I used to trail ride with a woman on a QH. I could never figure out why my long legged TB could never seem to keep up with her horse at the walk. Years later, I found out he was actually doing that jog. To me it looked like a fast walk...little cheater! 

Thanks for posting that video. That's a beautiful lope, but I think I would slide right down that horse's neck and over his head. I never could get the feel of the western breeds.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

I looove the low headset. I always freak out when I rode a horse whose head went above their withers. Felt like I was in for a wild ride, aha. I usually always have to pick up my WP horse's heads. They are naturally built with that low neck set. All my yearlings look like they are sniffing dirt until I ask them to pick it up. Stock breed showing is definitely a love/hate kind of thing.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Of course oh vair oh, naturally low is a totally different thing than pulling the head down.

I spent a lot of time trying to get my mare low headed for reining, but it wasn't her thing. So I quit and let her have her head up...She actually started winning more that way. I also tried doing classes such as Western Horsemanship and Trail with her and she told me quickly she was not low and slow enough for those classes...After I made it to State Championships in Western and she pitched a rearing fit in the middle of all the sweet, well behaved WP type horses


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

apachiedragon said:


> I will say this, if I had ridden my hunter class the way that rider in the Hot Diggity Joe video was riding, my trainer would have yanked me off the horse and chased me back to the trailer with a crop.
> 
> I am not a fan of the breed show "hunter" classes. They still look like WP horses in English tack to me, just chased around at a faster pace. But again, that's personal, not knocking those that do it and enjoy it.


I am also mystified by the HUS classes. I don't get the purpose. The horse isn't ridden like a real hunter at all, and many of the riders really can't ride well in an English saddle. Why don't they just do Western pleasure, which is what the horse has been bred and trained for.? 

OK, it's fun. it's fun to change your costume and your tack. But don't kid yourself that that is real English riding. I wonder how folks in England feel about HUS classes. Are they mystified, too?

I , too, feel uncomfortable on a horse whose head is hanging down below his withers. The rule says not below, but every horse in that video had the head below the withers.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> I am also mystified by the HUS classes. I don't get the purpose. The horse isn't ridden like a real hunter at all, and many of the riders really can't ride well in an English saddle. Why don't they just do Western pleasure, which is what the horse has been bred and trained for.?
> 
> OK, it's fun. it's fun to change your costume and your tack. But don't kid yourself that that is real English riding. I wonder how folks in England feel about HUS classes. Are they mystified, too?
> 
> I , too, feel uncomfortable on a horse whose head is hanging down below his withers. The rule says not below, but every horse in that video had the head below the withers.


You have to remember, these are stock hunters. Stock horses were not originally bred to be hunters like open hunters such as thoroughbreds and sport horses were. They look and move differently. When people say these are western horses in english saddles, _they are._ Haha. We like the slow, collected, suspended movement with the low head. It's how the stock horses are built. If you are looking for open hunter movement, you need to go look at open hunters. I think it's beautiful and elegant, and an art to getting that soft leg and slow collected frame with the lofty stride. Of course, I don't like the way open hunters move. I feel out of control on them.


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## spurstop (Mar 22, 2012)

toto said:


> Yes. Thats what western pleasure used to look like. You show up doing that jog there now and you wont even place! :-x


You haven't been to many shows or watched many lately have you?

There were fantastic, and deep, pleasure classes at PWC last week.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

oh vair oh said:


> You have to remember, these are stock hunters. Stock horses were not originally bred to be hunters like open hunters such as thoroughbreds and sport horses were. They look and move differently. When people say these are western horses in english saddles, _they are._ Haha. We like the slow, collected, suspended movement with the low head. It's how the stock horses are built. If you are looking for open hunter movement, you need to go look at open hunters. I think it's beautiful and elegant, and an art to getting that soft leg and slow collected frame with the lofty stride. Of course, I don't like the way open hunters move. I feel out of control on them.


I have to disagree with you on this. Just because they are stock bred doesn't mean they can't be ridden as proper hunters, with a frame and contact. If you like the western look in your horses then ride western, don't dress them up in english gear and call them hunters when it's obvious they aren't. Just because they are at a breed show shouldn't excuse them from riding in a way that is proper for the style they are showing. And if all the horses at these breed shows had to be shown that way because they are stock bred, then this QH at Congress didn't get that memo. I don't see a low headset and loopy reins on her.







I'm not trying to be argumentative, but it just seems ridiculous to me to call them hunters when they aren't ridden like hunters, and they certainly don't move like them. Call it english style pleasure, but don't call it something it isn't.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

That's jumpers, not hunters. Even in open showing jumpers do not have the certain form and cadence that hunters do. 

Our quarters and paints are in frame, with no contact. Personally, I think that's more difficult. Why that's attributed to "western horses only" I don't know, I think having good control of your horse without being in its face all the time is good for any discipline.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

spurstop said:


> You haven't been to many shows or watched many lately have you?
> 
> There were fantastic, and deep, pleasure classes at PWC last week.



You telling me the pintos do wp faster than the aqha horses? :lol:

do you live in OK or was you competing in the world show?


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

toto said:


> You telling me the pintos do wp faster than the aqha horses? :lol:
> 
> do you live in OK or was you competing in the world show?


Do you mean PAINTS? I thought pinto is a color, PAINT is a breed. Is that not right?


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Pinto Association is a color association that includes paint horses.

I competed with my yearling at Pinto World Championships and the western pleasure had several forward moving horses that had high placings. Some people were visibly upset by this, but it was a step in the right direction. Just wish they had more forward moving horses to choose from, you just hope it becomes more popular.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

franknbeans said:


> Do you mean PAINTS? I thought pinto is a color, PAINT is a breed. Is that not right?


No. 


Pinto horse association is a color registry- american paint horse association is a breed registry. ;-)

Oh vair oh- you posted before i got the chance, lol.


Frank--


> 1. What is the bloodline requirement for registration of a horse with APHA?
> 
> In order to qualify for registration with APHA, a foal’s sire and dam must be registered with either the APHA, or American Quarter Horse Association (AQHA), or Jockey Club (Thoroughbred.) Beginning Jan. 1, 2005, all horses presented for registration to the Regular Registry were also required to have at least one registered Paint parent (Regular Registry, Solid Paint Bred or Breeding Stock). Exception: Horses with either two QH or two Thoroughbred or 1 QH and 1 Thoroughbred parent are eligible for registration if the horse was produced by a breeding prior to January 1, 2005 and are eligible for Regular Registry.
> 
> ...


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## spurstop (Mar 22, 2012)

toto said:


> You telling me the pintos do wp faster than the aqha horses? :lol:
> 
> do you live in OK or was you competing in the world show?



I don't really understand what you're asking here. I'm not saying that anything is "faster" than anything else. For one thing, WP isn't about going "faster" it's about having a balanced, correct, and broke mover. I get that you're trying to be a ****, but I don't really get the point you think you're making. I'm saying that a recent, large World Show had great classes where horses did well. And many of the horses that were there and did well also show APHA, and some AQHA. 

I wasn't able to go to Tulsa this year. I have been and it's a fantastic show and a lot of fun. A lot of the rest of the barn went and they did great and had a great time.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Thats because im not asking anything from you-- im not a jerk but dont push me, lol. 

Western pleasure is about a horses demeanor and how trained the horse is actually. Its about having a western horse thats a pleasure to ride all day- for the showing they want to see a good trained horse that listens to the lightest cues with out any fuss or fighting and does it quickly but slow in pace- not crazy slow but pleasureable for the rider- they dont want to see a sloppy mess bouncing around on top of a horse- they want to see smooth gaits- the rider should be relaxed and look like the ride is enjoyable.. not like theyre being beat to death up on a saddle, lol.

Im sorry- the way you worded your first comment made it sound like you was there showing or watching the show? Or like you knew something i didnt?


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## spurstop (Mar 22, 2012)

It's called a live feed. 

And I show AQHA/APHA/PtHA in western events so I am very, very familiar with the class.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

spurstop said:


> It's called a live feed.
> 
> And I show AQHA/APHA/PtHA in western events so I am very, very familiar with the class.


Is that like an iPhone?

So do i- and have been for years.. its nice to meet someone that shares the same interest. :thumbsup:


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