# UPDATE: I have DNA color results (original post: Newborn Color Questions )



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Looks black with nd1 going gray.. The blue eyes are baby blues and will change. The striping on the legs are foal crinkled as the kids call them. Left over from time on the inside and will fade. Also could be part of the foal camo if the stay. I've seen it either way. It isn't likely to remain on the adult coat unless there are two nd1 genes present even then most don't keep it.


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## Palfrey (May 29, 2020)

I think the foal will be grey. Very cute, hope you enjoy them both. Foals are so much fun!


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## 299809 (7 mo ago)

QtrBel said:


> Looks black with nd1 going gray.. The blue eyes are baby blues and will change. The striping on the legs are foal crinkled as the kids call them. Left over from time on the inside and will fade. Also could be part of the foal camo if the stay. I've seen it either way. It isn't likely to remain on the adult coat unless there are two nd1 genes present even then most don't keep it.


Thank you! I have no experience with foals and I have found the whole foal camo thing very interesting.


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## 299809 (7 mo ago)

Palfrey said:


> I think the foal will be grey. Very cute, hope you enjoy them both. Foals are so much fun!


Thanks so much! I've had the mare since she was a yearling and she was "black" ...so black that my neighbors were calling her "Black Beauty". I too believe the foal will be grey. Fun is for sure what we have planned!


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## My Salty Pony (Jan 1, 2022)

I bet the foal will look just like mama, A Flea Bitten Gray


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

I’m guessing greying with age, as well. 

That’s a real nice looking mare, btw.


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## 299809 (7 mo ago)

My Salty Pony said:


> I bet the foal will look just like mama, A Flea Bitten Gray


That totally works for me! Thank you for taking the time to post.


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## 299809 (7 mo ago)

Chevaux said:


> I’m guessing greying with age, as well.
> 
> That’s a real nice looking mare, btw.


Thank you! I think she is gorgeous but love is blind. She's 19 years old and was maiden. Someone else thought she was nice too and bred her without my knowledge or consent.


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## 299809 (7 mo ago)

haciendalapaz said:


> That totally works for me! Thank you for taking the time to post.


And I should say... my mare went from black to charcoal around 2 years old. The she shed out a dark dapple grey that got lighter each year. It was only about 10 or so years ago that the brown fleks showed up and then the flea bitten happened. It's been an interesting transformation.


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## RFInukshuk (7 mo ago)

299809 said:


> I just did it for my 2 month old foal and was shocked at the results and glad I did it. I used Etalon Diagnostics and did their Mini Panel Plus. Highly recommend!


What was it that had you shocked? Etalon aren’t the most reliable with colour testing


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## 299809 (7 mo ago)

Really? Please tell me why they are not reliable with color testing. The sire of my foal is still unknown although parentage is another test that is pending. My mare is grey. My original post entitled "Newborn Color Questions" has photos of mare and newborn. The newborn is black. My mare was born black and black for her first two years. In that post I mention the blue tint to the foals eyes ...the "baby blues" and they are actually associated with some colors, like buckskin. Most forum members guessed the foal would be grey just like my mare and I was told the blue tinted eyes meant nothing. DNA came in and not grey. My foal's color came back "Buckskin" and she is now looking very much along the way to a sooty buckskin. Would not have guessed it because most buckskins start out light color AND the baby daddy choices are undetermined and extremely limited and no buckskin stallions around... so I never would have guessed. I did learn that my mare's parents (through the MFT registry) had a palomino in 1999. Maybe someone can tell me if the cream dilution could have come from my mare. So maybe not shocking to others but it was to me and I'm so glad I did the testing. Plus, of course, I learned so much more. I called Etalon because the color seemed so far fetched at the time. They stand behind their results and they test on two platforms. They will do another test with a new pull of hair in case the sample got contaminated. I don't think so. My foal is transforming rapidly and they way she looks now, I think they hit the nail on the head.


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## RFInukshuk (7 mo ago)

299809 said:


> Really? Please tell me why they are not reliable with color testing. The sire of my foal is still unknown although parentage is another test that is pending. My mare is grey. My original post entitled "Newborn Color Questions" has photos of mare and newborn. The newborn is black. My mare was born black and black for her first two years. In that post I mention the blue tint to the foals eyes ...the "baby blues" and they are actually associated with some colors, like buckskin. Most forum members guessed the foal would be grey just like my mare and I was told the blue tinted eyes meant nothing. DNA came in and not grey. My foal's color came back "Buckskin" and she is now looking very much along the way to a sooty buckskin. Would not have guessed it because most buckskins start out light color AND the baby daddy choices are undetermined and extremely limited and no buckskin stallions around... so I never would have guessed. I did learn that my mare's parents (through the MFT registry) had a palomino in 1999. Maybe someone can tell me if the cream dilution could have come from my mare. So maybe not shocking to others but it was to me and I'm so glad I did the testing. Plus, of course, I learned so much more. I called Etalon because the color seemed so far fetched at the time. They stand behind their results and they test on two platforms. They will do another test with a new pull of hair in case the sample got contaminated. I don't think so. My foal is transforming rapidly and they way she looks now, I think they hit the nail on the head.


Can you post the genetic markers for us? As in what the result was for zygosity at each locus? EE or Ee? aa, AA or Aa? n/Cr? Gg or gg?
Etalon have a poor reputation when it comes to accuracy and are often wrong.
UC Davis and animal genetics are the better options for testing.
I will eat my socks if your foal is buckskin. For a start buckskin foals are bay base and are not born black. A buckskin foal will be born a caramel like shade, this can vary from quite dark to light but they won’t be born black with silver tones. The foal you posted pictures of is quite clearly black base not bay.

I would agree with no grey due to the silvery tones across the body at birth (foal camo. A grey would would not have this) and cream can have been passed down from the mare if she had a cream parent as cream does not dilute black pigment when heterozygous n/Cr.
Blue eyes aren’t related to a buckskin, baby blues are common in a vast number of foals, you see them more than not and they change blue/grey to grey to brown. Amber eyes come with genes like Pearl and champagne and blue eyes are associated to double dilutes Cr/Cr, Cr/Prl or white spotting genes such as splash white. 

you also cannot tell the presence of sooty at birth as sooty is progressive and generally begins to express around 6 years of age. There is no discovered genetic marker yet for the sooty phenotype.

you were right to be shocked because it is highly likely that they got it wrong.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

The only base color cream can "hide" on is black. If one of your mare's parents showed cream dilution (palomino, buckskin) or was smokey black (black carrying cream) then your mare can carry cream and pass it. If I remember your photos with those results I'd say your foal is black and carrying cream not buckskin. There would have been more of an indication of the bay being present along with cream. Black foal coats, especially black with cream and/or nd1 fade dramatically and rather quickly. After the foal has dried and been exposed to sunlight after the first couple of days foal coat is not reliable to determine color. You posted "fresh" newborn photos that indicate black. Not bay/buckskin.

Etalon has the highest percentage of wrong results out of the labs most used. Sometimes though it is simply the results were typed or read wrong.

*MOD NOTE* as the last few posts were a referring to this thread and not relevant to the thread they were posted in, they were moved from the thread Foal Coat Color=Unable to Determine to here.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

299809 said:


> Really? Please tell me why they are not reliable with color testing. The sire of my foal is still unknown although parentage is another test that is pending. My mare is grey. My original post entitled "Newborn Color Questions" has photos of mare and newborn. The newborn is black. My mare was born black and black for her first two years. In that post I mention the blue tint to the foals eyes ...the "baby blues" and they are actually associated with some colors, like buckskin. Most forum members guessed the foal would be grey just like my mare and I was told the blue tinted eyes meant nothing. DNA came in and not grey. My foal's color came back "Buckskin" and she is now looking very much along the way to a sooty buckskin. Would not have guessed it because most buckskins start out light color AND the baby daddy choices are undetermined and extremely limited and no buckskin stallions around... so I never would have guessed. I did learn that my mare's parents (through the MFT registry) had a palomino in 1999. Maybe someone can tell me if the cream dilution could have come from my mare. So maybe not shocking to others but it was to me and I'm so glad I did the testing. Plus, of course, I learned so much more. I called Etalon because the color seemed so far fetched at the time. They stand behind their results and they test on two platforms. They will do another test with a new pull of hair in case the sample got contaminated. I don't think so. My foal is transforming rapidly and they way she looks now, I think they hit the nail on the head.


It is possible that your mare is a smoky black with greying gene. In order for the foal to be buckskin it would have to be agouti. Did they say if it had the grey gene?


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## 299809 (7 mo ago)

Hi Lori. No, she did not get the grey gene and yes has agouti. These are the results: A/a, E/e, nd1/nd2, CR/n. This is a photo of her taken just the other day. Her face went thru a serious werewolf looking stage, which has passed, and now she has distinct goggles. Thanks for your comments and inquiry!


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## 299809 (7 mo ago)

RFInukshuk said:


> Can you post the genetic markers for us? As in what the result was for zygosity at each locus? EE or Ee? aa, AA or Aa? n/Cr? Gg or gg?
> Etalon have a poor reputation when it comes to accuracy and are often wrong.
> UC Davis and animal genetics are the better options for testing.
> I will eat my socks if your foal is buckskin. For a start buckskin foals are bay base and are not born black. A buckskin foal will be born a caramel like shade, this can vary from quite dark to light but they won’t be born black with silver tones. The foal you posted pictures of is quite clearly black base not bay.
> ...


Hi! thank you for your input and information. I added the genetic result and a new photo in my original post.


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## 299809 (7 mo ago)

299809 said:


> Hi! thank you for your input and information. I added the genetic result and a new photo in my original post. above.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I would have them run it again. I highly doubt the Aa. Especially without results for gray which weren't listed. She looks like a smokey black with nd1. I'll see if I can pull up photos of mine but it may not be for a day or two. They are on an old computer.

Fading is extreme on those.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

299809 said:


> Really? Please tell me why they are not reliable with color testing. The sire of my foal is still unknown although parentage is another test that is pending. My mare is grey. My original post entitled "Newborn Color Questions" has photos of mare and newborn. The newborn is black. My mare was born black and black for her first two years. In that post I mention the blue tint to the foals eyes ...the "baby blues" and they are actually associated with some colors, like buckskin. Most forum members guessed the foal would be grey just like my mare and I was told the blue tinted eyes meant nothing. DNA came in and not grey. My foal's color came back "Buckskin" and she is now looking very much along the way to a sooty buckskin. Would not have guessed it because most buckskins start out light color AND the baby daddy choices are undetermined and extremely limited and no buckskin stallions around... so I never would have guessed. I did learn that my mare's parents (through the MFT registry) had a palomino in 1999. Maybe someone can tell me if the cream dilution could have come from my mare. So maybe not shocking to others but it was to me and I'm so glad I did the testing. Plus, of course, I learned so much more. I called Etalon because the color seemed so far fetched at the time. They stand behind their results and they test on two platforms. They will do another test with a new pull of hair in case the sample got contaminated. I don't think so. My foal is transforming rapidly and they way she looks now, I think they hit the nail on the head.


That is really cool. The cream dilution does strange things. I would have guessed the foal would be grey. But then again my bros in law had a bay mare, and I had a gelding, both same parents, AQHA, any my gelding was a red roan as a baby but greyed out by the time he was 5. The bay mare is still bay.


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## 299809 (7 mo ago)

QtrBel said:


> I would have them run it again. I highly doubt the Aa. Especially without results for gray which weren't listed. She looks like a smokey black with nd1. I'll see if I can pull up photos of mine but it may not be for a day or two. They are on an old computer.
> 
> Fading is extreme on those.


I'm in Mexico and it is kind of a hassle to get another sample to them in the US. Maybe I just wait it out and see what happens. Why do you highly doubt the Aa? And what do you mean by "fading is extreme on those". I've no experience or knowledge of foals and changing coat colors. I did not plan this foal and although I've accepted that I have a foal, would not have set out to have one.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Black horses carrying cream and/or with nd1 fade to the point they can look buckskin. The Aa or AA with either Ee or EE would mean he is bay but even for the darkest bays they are not black when born. Most foals that are that adult shade of black are also carrying gray. Your foal was born black. A black would be aa with either Ee or EE.


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## 299809 (7 mo ago)

QtrBel said:


> Black horses carrying cream and/or with nd1 fade to the point they can look buckskin. The Aa or AA with either Ee or EE would mean he is bay but even for the darkest bays they are not black when born. Most foals that are that adult shade of black are also carrying gray. Your foal was born black. A black would be aa with either Ee or EE.


Got it! Thank you for the great explanation.


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