# Spur Stop/ Spur breaking



## I Love Lane (Dec 11, 2007)

We all know that i am a firm believer in spurs. I have had world, national, state, congress and futurity chaampions and i never ride without them....... enough said i think.


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

Spur stopping = essential.


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## Kyani (Apr 30, 2007)

Ok, in the UK here...what IS spur stopping?


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## Sara (Jul 6, 2007)

Seeing as spur pressure is a "go" signal for just about any other discipline, I would have to say I don't agree with it.


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## Kyani (Apr 30, 2007)

This is why I'm confused...why would you need a spur to stop? Is this a western thing?


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## Sara (Jul 6, 2007)

It is a western pleasure thing. Basically, the ideal for a wp horse is to go on as loose a rein as possible...which makes a clean stop more challenging, especially on a young or less trained horse. Thus, the spur stop, which is a more noticeable aid. At least that is my understanding of it...not sure what else you guys use it for


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## BluMagic (Sep 23, 2007)

I DO NOT spur stop. I think it just confuses the horse with the mixed signals of stop and go. Like Sara said, I don't agree. However, I do wear spears at times when needed.


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## Kyani (Apr 30, 2007)

So, you are, in effect, banned from using rein contact, so you replace it with something that is also an aid to go? Sounds odd and confusing to me. I'm sure it must be more complicated than that, right? :? I thought western placed a lot of emphasis on the seat and legs to give aids.


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## LuLu (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm with Kyani on this one :? :?


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## BluMagic (Sep 23, 2007)

???


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

I Googled "Spur Stop" and came up with this: http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-chat-forum/get_topic/4/000703.html

Interesting.


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## Sara (Jul 6, 2007)

Kyani said:


> So, you are, in effect, banned from using rein contact, so you replace it with something that is also an aid to go? Sounds odd and confusing to me. I'm sure it must be more complicated than that, right? :? I thought western placed a lot of emphasis on the seat and legs to give aids.


From what I understand, they DO place a lot of emphasis on seat and leg. The reading I've done leads me to believe that the spur stop is sort of a shortcut...but again, wp is not my discipline, so maybe I am misunderstanding. I'm sure the wp officianados can shed more light on this.

ed. I want to expand a little on my disagreement. I don't necessarily think that spur stopping is 'bad': all horse training is based on communication, and if you and your horse understand the language you are speaking to each other in, that's all that really matters. 

I just believe that a certain level of standardization in basic concepts allows a horse and rider to move smoothly from discipline to discipline. Or in the horse's case, from owner to owner. Its the same beef I have with the technology industry right now...but that's another kettle of fish


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

It would seem that if a horse is trained for a spur stop it is NOT trained to also mean "go". The spur is used for one or the other, not both. 

If you were to get on a horse trained for a spur stop and didn't know it, you might be just as suprised as the horse when you want to go and he stands there!

I also found this: http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/spur-training-or-spur-stop-176866.html


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## AKPaintLover (May 26, 2007)

I read an article about how controversial the spur stop was. It seemed to say that a lot of riders who are not advanced enough to use is correctly really end up causing their horses to move unaturally because they are lifting their rip cages away out of discomfort. It sounded like there are some riders who are able to use it effectively. 

I ride with spurs, using them only when needed, but I don't think I would use the spur stop. I ride more reining, trail, eq. than WP anyway though.


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

Well, you see, the thing is, spur stopping is no less "natural" than using a bit. People always assume that kicking horses to move forward, and pulling in their mouth to stop them is natural somehow.

All of these things are cues, and applying pressure with your spurs to stop the horse is no different. 

Spur stopping also allows us to branch out and use our spurs to adjust their movement and control their frame better. A problem arises when you try to do this with a horse that does not spur stop. It simply takes these attempts to adjust its body as a cue to move faster. This is of course undesirable in Western Pleasure and many other disciplines.

It may not make a lot of sense, but spur stopping also allows riders to become better with their leg cues, and it helps horses to concentrate by focusing most of the cues in one area. I know personally, when I taught my horse to spur stop, I gained quite a bit of control over his movement. 

In pleasure shows, it may seem like the riders are doing almost nothing to their horses, but its a deceiving look. We are constantly giving them direction about where to put their bodies and how to move their legs. When you move stopping from the bit to the spurs, it makes everything so much more even and fluent. 

I'll say it again, it's not the easiest thing to explain and people will have whatever opinions they want, but when you experience riding a horse that is controlled primarily by the seat and legs, you will understand the usefulness of spurs and spur stopping.


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## I Love Lane (Dec 11, 2007)

All my horses Spur Stop and i have never had a problem with the cue or keeping forward momentum in my horses. It is something that both horse and rider MUST know how to do properly or all sorts of problems arise. When done correctly, a horse that spur stops is much more desirable for the top levels of the sport and if people are happy to stay at a 4H or local level then you will never need to use the spur stop, but if you want to win world titles - you need to adapt to what is a better overall result and picture. It is not crull, it is just different to what you all are used to so it is hard to accept that it is a correct way for things to be done.

I found this artical a while back and i found it interesting, it covers the common problems that you all have mentioned associated with the spur stop:

Just as the sport was cleaning up the "peanut roller" controversy, a new controversy began regarding the "spur stop." A current fad, seen in nearly all western breeds, requires a horse to perform with an extremely loose, draped rein at all times. Western pleasure horses have always traveled on a fairly loose rein, but in recent years a visible "drape" in the rein has become exaggerated. However, it requires time, good riding ability, and careful training to stop a horse with weight and voice alone without tightening the reins. Hence, some trainers, pressed to train horses quickly, train some western pleasure horses to slow down and stop when spur pressure is applied so that they do not have to use the reins.

The precise cues given a horse are not necessarily a problem in itself, but the spur stop has two problems. The first is that riders will often "capture" the horse, or in other words, use too much pressure, which most often results in the horse sucking back in the midsection to escape the pressure, and this body tension causes a horse's gait to become very jerky and unnatural. If used in this incorrect manner for a long period of time, the spur stop can lead to pinched nerves, spine and joint pain, and lameness.

The second problem is mental: spur or leg pressure is a near-universal cue to the horse to go forward in nearly all other disciplines. Therefore, if the horse is later used for some other purpose, it has to be completely retrained. Because horses have long memories and have a difficult time forgetting lessons once learned, retraining can be a time-consuming procedure.


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## Tessa Bear (May 15, 2007)

I agree with lane, and i am glad i started this thread, hopeing that someone would explain the misconceptions of spur training.

I for one do use the spur stop, and agree once again with lane that is essential to have it if you are showing the upper levels.

dressage is used from mostly leg and seat movements and no one has a problem with that, once we get the misconception that spurs are only made to make a horse go out our heads we would be more understanding.

and yes i have seen many many horses messed up by this method, but only because the rider or trainer did not know how to use it.

also like Tim said we need to get it out of our heads that spurs are only there to make a horse go.


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

Ok, yesterday, after reading the article that Lane posted from Wikipedia on the spur stop, I decided to do a little touching up on it. As you read from Lane's post, the writer of that article seemed to believe that it was universal for all spur stopping horses to have incompetent riders who bring about the extreme cases of lameness and nerve damage. I added a sentence in the defense of spur stopping, claiming any technique, when used irresponsibly, can lead to problems, such as hard mouths in horses who are subjected to excessive bit pressure. I also revised the mental problem paragraph so that "completely retrained" became "partially retrained."

There were other revisions that I did to the Wiki on Western Pleasure, specifically I changed the assertion that all horses must have their poll level with their withers (as they do in the USEF rulebook) to the AQHA standard of a "level topline" which most pleasure riders find to be more reasonable than the USEF headset. _Nothing_ I wrote was extreme in any way, and all of my expressed opinions were reasonable. I also went to great care in order to maintain the preious editors opinions, while toning them down a bit to reflect a less extreme view of the sport which I felt would be more appropriate for readers. 

Well, ****, I guess I went and offended someone... The following excerpt came from the same exact place where Lane's quote previously was. Check it out:

"Just as the sport was cleaning up the "peanut roller" controversy, a new controversy began regarding the "spur stop." A current fad, seen in nearly all breeds, requires a horse to perform with an extremely loose, draped rein at all times. Western pleasure horses have always traveled on a fairly loose rein, but in recent years a visible "drape" in the rein has become exaggerated.[4] However, it requires time, good riding ability, and careful training to correctly teach a horse "self carriage," particularly to slow or stop with weight (and sometimes voice) alone without tightening the reins.

Hence, some trainers, particularly if pressed to train horses quickly, train some western pleasure horses to slow down and stop when spur pressure is applied. Sometimes referred to as "riding the brake," this trend is officially frowned upon by the major western pleasure sanctioning organizations since at least 2003.[6]

The precise cues given a horse are not necessarily a problem in themselves, but the spur stop has several problems and its use is even considered a form of animal abuse in some circles. The first problem is that a rider who uses the spur stop command can "capture" the horse, or in other words, use too much pressure, which most often results in the horse sucking back in the midsection to escape the pressure. This body tension causes a horse's gait to become very jerky and unnatural. If used in this incorrect manner for a long period of time, the spur stop can lead to pinched nerves, spine and joint pain, and lameness.

In defense of the spur stop, its advocates claim that a spur stop is not inherently abusive if properly executed and in that respect is no different from the traditional method of stopping using a combination of light bit pressure and collection with the legs. They argue that classic method does not cause problems when used responsibly, but also can be abused. They point out that horses that are said to have "hard mouths" are a result of irresponsible and excessive bit use.

However, the most significant problem with the spur stop is mental: spur or leg pressure is a near-universal cue in virtually every other equestrianism discipline to ask the horse to go forward. A horse that stops when leg pressure is applied is not useful for almost any other type of riding. Therefore, if the horse is later used for some other purpose, it has to be retrained. But, because horses have long memories and have a difficult time forgetting lessons once learned, retraining can be a time-consuming procedure. With the reality that the horse show career of most animals lasts relatively few years (at least at national level intensity), plus any number of animals initially trained for this discipline may not excel at it and require a switch to something else, most western pleasure horses, particularly those of average ability, can reasonably be anticipated to go on and do different work at a later point in its life. Aside from time and cost of retraining, critics of the spur stop also point out that if a horse is not able to be retrained for a different use or is sold to a new owner who considers its behavior to be balking or other disobedience, it may be deemed a useless animal that could ultimately be sold for horsemeat.
"

Ok, I dont know whether you took the time to read that, but let me sum it up for you with a simple equation...

*Western pleasure = awful trainers = spur stopping = animal cruelty = an inevitable need to retrain the animal = HORSE SLAUGHTER*

I guess I better stop using my spurs, otherwise my horse is going to end up in the slaughter house... :roll: 

I'm not going to waste any more time fixing this article, but I think it's a shame that some people have these opinions and are willing to slander a perfectly respectable riding discipline in order to express them. Even if I felt the same way as this editor does, I would at least have the respect not to post my opinions on a website visited by millions where many readers take what is written to be factual.

The only attempt I made today was to make a further distinction between the USEF and AQHA designated headsets. Otherwise, if you want to read (and maybe edit please) the Wiki on Western Pleasure you can go here. As for me, I may just include a small disclaimer before the article, but we'll see how long that lasts.


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## I Love Lane (Dec 11, 2007)

wow Tim..... LOL some one is making little dolls of you and jabbing pins in your eyes :twisted: :roll: .......

Tessa bear I am glad to hear that Tim and I are not the only people on here prepared to admit that the spur stop is essential for top level riders and horses (Any one who may happen to have a world champion that doesn't spur stop please feel free to jump in to this conversation anytime!)


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## I Love Lane (Dec 11, 2007)

ps Tim....... someone other then me took offence to what got posted on WIK because it now reads completly different again and is no longer containing anything that suggest any spur stopping horse will need to be slaughtered!


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

I Love Lane said:


> ps Tim....... someone other then me took offence to what got posted on WIK because it now reads completly different again and is no longer containing anything that suggest any spur stopping horse will need to be slaughtered!


yea, and that wasn't me either. glad to hear that though. 
Little voodoo dolls ROFL. :lol:


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## I Love Lane (Dec 11, 2007)

me too :twisted:


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## quixotesoxs (Jan 19, 2008)

I used to ride WP horses, and I hate spur stops, but you need them to win. It is a confusing signal to a horse, a basic summary is spur says go, rein says whoa, enough said, so I don't train my horses to spur stop anymore.


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

quixotesoxs said:


> I used to ride WP horses, and I hate spur stops, but you need them to win. It is a confusing signal to a horse, a basic summary is spur says go, rein says whoa, enough said, so I don't train my horses to spur stop anymore.


But I will argue with you here. Horses are not pre-wired from birth with a "spur says go, rein says whoa" instinct.


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## Tessa Bear (May 15, 2007)

this is absolutly correct. 

if you are not an advanced rider to use it then don't. There are other ways to train horses and like Lane and Tim said, please show me a world champian wp horse who is not spur trained.

IMO i think that it is harder to ride a horse that is spur trained.

It cannot be confusing to horse, when the horse dosen't know any diffrent, if anything people don't like it because it is confusing to them.


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## quixotesoxs (Jan 19, 2008)

I see everybodys point, I just don't like a lot of things about WP period. Don't get me wrong, it's a lot of hard work to get a good WP horse. But I don't do it anymore because it's so artificial in a lot of ways, I think a horse that is pleasureable is a horse that moves naturally and doesn't have it's head cranked down or anything like that. I know this will tick some people off, but thats how I feel.


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## quixotesoxs (Jan 19, 2008)

And by the way, spur stopping is done so that we can have a drapping rein. But if you read most rule books, they state that a rider should NOT have a drapping rein, but have light contact. They also state the the horses poll should be inlign with the withers. If WP trainers went by the rule book, it wouldn't bother me at all.


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

Oh they do train to the rules, but western pleasure is often judged based on AQHA rules at open shows. The biggest reason is that the USEF refuses to make any distinction between western and english pleasure horses, and their events are so heavy on the english, a lot of the WP people just go back to events that use the AQHA rules. Even my 4-H circuit uses AQHA rules for the western divisions... You may be right, but it all depends on which rulebook you quote. :wink: 

Anyways, the AQHA have done a lot to turn around the image of Western Pleasure that many people still hold as a result of the "peanut roller" days. Nonetheless, headsets are more widely accepted within the "level topline" margin, whereas the USEF nazi's require poll to withers. Most good aqha pleasure horses will be between poll and eartips, leaning more to the eartips for a jog and poll for the lope.

Still, you are correct. Spur stopping is a good way to keep your horse on a draped rein, and if you watch world championships, you will notice a lot of draped reins. Now, really, those horses didn't get to the world show for nothing... if they were really breaking rules like crazy, they wouldn't be competing at that level. It sure as hell isn't an open show. 

You can also read earlier posts to hear other reasons why people use spur stopping over bit pressure if you like. I'm not going to reiterate.


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## I Love Lane (Dec 11, 2007)

tim said:


> Oh they do train to the rules, but western pleasure is often judged based on aqha rules at open shows. The biggest reason is that the USEF refuses to make any distinction between western and english pleasure horses, and their events are so heavy on the english, a lot of the WP people just go back to events that use the aqha rules. Even my 4-H circuit uses aqha rules for the western divisions... You may be right, but it all depends on which rulebook you quote. :wink:
> 
> Anyways, the aqha have done a lot to turn around the image of Western Pleasure that many people still hold as a result of the "peanut roller" days. Nonetheless, headsets are more widely accepted within the "level topline" margin, whereas the USEF nazi's require poll to withers. Most good aqha pleasure horses will be between poll and eartips, leaning more to the eartips for a jog and poll for the lope.
> 
> ...


thanks Tim...... Saved me from saying it. :wink:


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## derbyhillsranch (Jan 26, 2008)

Didnt take time to read every post, but from what i have read, Lane and Tim are the only pro-spurstop people. I too spur stop. For those who say that it confuses the horse, then that horse hasnt been properly trained. Horses may have instincts, but everything can be trained into a habbit for a horse (good or bad.) As far as spurstopping, if you show pleasure, theres no other option.


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

Nice!

I've read some serious arguments on other forums that got really nasty. I think it's become less of an issue though, since it's been around for a few years now.


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## I Love Lane (Dec 11, 2007)

i tend to agree with that, it seems hard to have a conversation these days about a contraversial subject without it turning into an arguement. I am glade that the people on this forum in general have enough respect for one another to be polite and discuss things like adults.

Oh, WELCOME derbyhillsranch...... :wink:


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## Abby (Nov 26, 2007)

I'm not against spur stopping or for it or anything like that. I just want to say to anyone that says a horse doesn't know any different is wrong, IMO.

From what I know and believe to be true, horses are born with a natural drive line and have it the rest of their lives. if you went up to a wild horse, given you could get close enough, and smacked it in the rump or anywhere behind their withers it will run forward, if you hit it on the chest, it will step backwards, even just slightly before running off. It is in their nature. Like if someone pokes you in the chest you step back, or some one kicks you in the butt you step forward, its a natural thing. 

I'm not saying training a horse to spur stop is any more difficult than to train a horse to stop with the rein because horses are trained to do all sorts of things out of their nature.


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## derbyhillsranch (Jan 26, 2008)

Abby said:


> I'm not against spur stopping or for it or anything like that. I just want to say to anyone that says a horse doesn't know any different is wrong, IMO.
> 
> From what I know and believe to be true, horses are born with a natural drive line and have it the rest of their lives. if you went up to a wild horse, given you could get close enough, and smacked it in the rump or anywhere behind their withers it will run forward, if you hit it on the chest, it will step backwards, even just slightly before running off. It is in their nature. Like if someone pokes you in the chest you step back, or some one kicks you in the butt you step forward, its a natural thing.
> 
> I'm not saying training a horse to spur stop is any more difficult than to train a horse to stop with the rein because horses are trained to do all sorts of things out of their nature.


Horses may always have instincts, but you are always to teach them a habbit.


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## Abby (Nov 26, 2007)

derbyhillsranch said:


> Horses may always have instincts, but you are always to teach them a habbit.


That is very true. Just because it is in a horses nature to see grass and graze doesn't mean it is okay while riding, thus why we teach them to keep their head up or bring their head up on command. It is also their instincts to run away but we teach them it is okay to let a predator on their back. (The predator being us of course. )


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## Grendel (Jan 22, 2008)

this is basically what I think about spurs: I quoted it from another horse forum, and I think this was a great post:



> Before I begin to bore the heck out of you with my rant o' th' spurs. Let me say a few things first before you can start to lose attention.
> 
> Spurs are not supposed to make your horse go faster!
> No, I'm not perfect either.
> ...


from here: http://z10.invisionfree.com/horseland/index.php?showtopic=22104

sorry the pictures don't work.


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

Good article Grendel.



Abby said:


> if you went up to a wild horse, hit it on the chest, it will step backwards.


Or rear up and kick you in the face. :lol: 

Good point though. Well said.


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

There's a woman where i board, and i believe she shows WP. I asked her one day how she got her horse to have a certain head carriage and along with other stuff, she said her horse was spur broke. Is that the same as spur stopping, or something totally different?


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## I Love Lane (Dec 11, 2007)

appylover31803 said:


> There's a woman where i board, and i believe she shows WP. I asked her one day how she got her horse to have a certain head carriage and along with other stuff, she said her horse was spur broke. Is that the same as spur stopping, or something totally different?


you would have to ask her - i have horses that are spur broke that do not spur stop and some that do. It depends on who did the training/breaking...........


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

> you would have to ask her - i have horses that are spur broke that do not spur stop and some that do. It depends on who did the training/breaking........... Very Happy


Oh ok. If i see her i could ask. I just didn't know what it was and it fit in. Thanks Lane!!


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## I Love Lane (Dec 11, 2007)

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## derbyhillsranch (Jan 26, 2008)

appylover31803 said:


> There's a woman where i board, and i believe she shows WP. I asked her one day how she got her horse to have a certain head carriage and along with other stuff, she said her horse was spur broke. Is that the same as spur stopping, or something totally different?


Spur Stopping is stopping the horse with your spurs, dropping the head with spurs wouldnt technically be called "spur stopping," more of "spur head-dropping" i guess. Personally i use both spurs at the same time to slow or stop the horse (depending on amount of pressure) and my calves to drop their head.


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## AKPaintLover (May 26, 2007)

tim said:


> Abby said:
> 
> 
> > if you went up to a wild horse, hit it on the chest, it will step backwards.
> ...


That is exactly what I visualized happening


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## Karen Horse (Sep 10, 2007)

Ok. im gonna jump into this conversation. Please help me out if you can. About 10 months ago, i got a 15 year old AQHA gelding who was contest trained. Im trying to train him for western classes. I was told that i need to round his back so i roll my heels under him. Well of course, being a contest horse, any leg pressure means GO! Well, hes still having a lot of trouble staying collected, under control, and slow for the lope. When i ask him to stay more collected in the jog i usually will ask him to extend and slow down at different times. When i want him to collect at the slow jog ill take hold of his face and sometimes see-saw the reins and squeeze with my legs and he collects himself better. I dont really want to train him to spur stop, but slow down when i add leg... is this possible with him. He stops with the word whoa. Usually he will slow in transitions with the word "easy" but i want a better clue for him to read. Please help so i can start training him. 
Thanks so much.
If you have any questions that you need answered in order to give a helpful answer.... please ask!!!


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## derbyhillsranch (Jan 26, 2008)

Karen Horse said:


> Ok. im gonna jump into this conversation. Please help me out if you can. About 10 months ago, i got a 15 year old aqha gelding who was contest trained. Im trying to train him for western classes. I was told that i need to round his back so i roll my heels under him. Well of course, being a contest horse, any leg pressure means GO! Well, hes still having a lot of trouble staying collected, under control, and slow for the lope. When i ask him to stay more collected in the jog i usually will ask him to extend and slow down at different times. When i want him to collect at the slow jog ill take hold of his face and sometimes see-saw the reins and squeeze with my legs and he collects himself better. I dont really want to train him to spur stop, but slow down when i add leg... is this possible with him. He stops with the word whoa. Usually he will slow in transitions with the word "easy" but i want a better clue for him to read. Please help so i can start training him.
> Thanks so much.
> If you have any questions that you need answered in order to give a helpful answer.... please ask!!!


Any habit a horse has can be changed but will take time. You have the option of using spur pressure, calf pressure, butt pressure(sitting hard in the saddle), and etc. If you want to keep the go in the spurs, id recomend using your calfs. Whatever you decide to use, start by using that cue along with "easy" or "whoa" or "Back". For instance, i say "whoa" and use my heels/spurs to back the horse. Once you can back the horse with your heels, begin to use it at a walk and the horse can learn to slow or stop depending on the amount of pressure you give.


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## Karen Horse (Sep 10, 2007)

derbyhillsranch said:


> Karen Horse said:
> 
> 
> > Ok. im gonna jump into this conversation. Please help me out if you can. About 10 months ago, i got a 15 year old aqha gelding who was contest trained. Im trying to train him for western classes. I was told that i need to round his back so i roll my heels under him. Well of course, being a contest horse, any leg pressure means GO! Well, hes still having a lot of trouble staying collected, under control, and slow for the lope. When i ask him to stay more collected in the jog i usually will ask him to extend and slow down at different times. When i want him to collect at the slow jog ill take hold of his face and sometimes see-saw the reins and squeeze with my legs and he collects himself better. I dont really want to train him to spur stop, but slow down when i add leg... is this possible with him. He stops with the word whoa. Usually he will slow in transitions with the word "easy" but i want a better clue for him to read. Please help so i can start training him.
> ...


Thanks so much. i think ill try the calve pressure. he already has a good stop... he slides some when hes cantering so i know hes using his hind quarters. It will just be a matter of habit with him now.


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## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

I use spurs but I think the spur stop is just an exuse for the rider not being able to train the horse that when you relax back in the saddle the horse should stop.


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

they still are training the horse, horse_lover. It's just a different type of training for the horse to do something. Maybe when they relax in the saddle it means something else


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

horse_luver4e said:


> I think the spur stop is just an exuse for the rider not being able to train the horse that when you relax back in the saddle the horse should stop.


Mmmk. I'm going to respond now. I get crap for this all the time.

I don't care how you train your horse. That does not concern me in the least. However, when people tell me I'm lazy when I train my horse, thats a problem for me.

What really gets me is this percieved notion that certain ways to train your horse are more thorough just because they take longer or because there is a stronger "connection" between you and your horse. Listen up, if you want a connection with your horse, thats fine but don't impose all your Gawani Pony Boy - be one with the horse crap on me. Horses are pack animals who connect to their leaders for the simple purpose of survival. It doesn't love you or enjoy your cuddle sessions. Thats called _anthropomorphic error_ in psychology, and it's a bad thing. You're fooling youself. :roll: 

On that note, do you want to know what we call methods that take longer to achieve the same ends? *INEFFICIENT*


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

> It doesn't love you or enjoy your cuddle sessions. Thats called anthropomorphic error in psychology, and it's a bad thing. You're fooling youself. Rolling Eyes


But aren't there some horses that enjoy cuddling more than others? My boyfriend's horse doesn't really like the whole cuddling stuff, but my mare does? I don't think i'm fooling myself, i think its just her personality. Just like how some humans enjoy human contact more than others. And dogs, and any other animal. Some like to cuddle (my german shepard mix) and other dont ( my yellow lab)

Yes they are herd animals, but i would think they love their fellow herd members.

I could be wrong, as Vega is my first horse, and I'm going to say the first horse, or whatever animal you have, has a greater impression on you than a horse further down the road, but all animals are individuals so i think i solely depends on the individual animal.


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## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

Yeah really don't say my horse doesn't love me, who do you think you are? I was just stating my oppinion I don't care if you disagree with it. And teaching a horse that when you relax they should stop doesn't take long at all. Quick fixes are for people who have no patience. :roll:


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

horse_luver4e said:


> And teaching a horse that when you relax they should stop doesn't take long at all.


Ok...


horse_luver4e said:


> Quick fixes are for people who have no patience. :roll:


...so you have no patience?


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## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

Yes I have patience where do I use quick fixes huh? Quit putting words in my mouth. I train efficiently and it doesn't have to take a long time. Patience is the key. Your horse isn't going to get flying lead changes over night ok. I mean quick fixes like the spur stop, martingales, hobbles, ect.


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## derbyhillsranch (Jan 26, 2008)

horse_luver4e said:


> I use spurs but I think the spur stop is just an exuse for the rider not being able to train the horse that when you relax back in the saddle the horse should stop.


I train horses to spur stop for several reasons
-thats what the customer wants
-leg movement is less obvious than back posture
-when showing, your to have very good back posture, but when your slumping back to stop a horse, your loosing your posture and creating unneeded movement.
-pleasure shows are about looking like your just sitting there but in reality your doing many tiny things to alter the horse.

-spur stopping is in no form lazy, think what you want, but ill continue to do what the customer pays me too


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## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

See here we go again. :roll: 

Did I tell you to change your ways? No I didn't I stated my oppinion. And in my oppinion relaxing is less obvious than spurring. You don't slump back you relax.


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

horse_luver4e said:


> I mean quick fixes like the spur stop, martingales, hobbles, ect.


Spur stop's not a quick fix dear.


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## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

In my opinion it is and don't call me dear. (it's my pet peeve :wink: )


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

Sorry hun. :wink: 

Would you like to elaborate on why you think it's a quick fix? I promise I'll read with interest.


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## AKPaintLover (May 26, 2007)

I don't spur stop, but I sure don't group it in with the quick fixes. It is an entirely different riding technique. It has a very important role in some disciplines and would seem silly in others. 

So, 

Since those of you who are disagreeing about this very obviously are coming from different perspectives and have different riding goals, you may just have to agree to disagree. 

I would remind you to keep the accusatory statements and condescending name calling out of this.


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## Sara (Jul 6, 2007)

AKPaintLover said:


> I would remind you to keep the accusatory statements and condescending name calling out of this.


Thank you.


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## I Love Lane (Dec 11, 2007)

I dont see how you could confuse spur stopping with being a 'quick fix'. It is a style of training, not a way to fix a problem...... Horse_luver- are you even sure you are familiar with the technique of spur stopping and training because your comment is quite far fetched and doesn't make any sense at all.

For someone who likes to think that your *opinion* (one p not 2) is so important, you need to make sure that your facts are infact correct before you make such inflamitory comments.

I also would think that you should please be polite in your reply as i am not attacking you - just replying to a silly comment.


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## See Spot Trot (Feb 26, 2008)

horse_luver4e said:


> In my opinion it is and don't call me dear. (it's my pet peeve :wink: )


 So, lets see (I,m not against spur stops but have no use for them at my discpline of riding) * you think it is easier to train a horse to yield/stop to spur aid, rather than to stop to sinking hips, or leaning back?! * Most horses can figure out that when you sit deep or lean back (leaning back can just throw them off balance depending on how its done,so I prefer to say sinking weight) it means stop, waaayy before you even need to start training a horse to stop to spur pressure. Yielding to your weight distribution is an essential to training and is used long before a horse is mentally ready to learn how to work with spur aids and ques. (In the sense of stopping anyways) And * in the training world there is no such thing as a "quick fix"* a quick fix ends up with way more problems than bargended for in the begginning. When you use a "quick fx" you are replacing things a horse should know with things he is more than likely forced to do, will resist in the long run, and gains nothing.
Spur aids are great if you are in a discipline that requires them, if all you do is ride for pleasure, or trail ride, than really you and your horse could probably live without them. Thats my view on it all.


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