# Horse flipping head



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I don't have any insight on why she may be doing this (but agree it's a good idea to get the chiro out!), but wanted to say this must be an extreme head flip if she's able to get her rein on the other side of her head ._.
What sort of contact are you riding with?


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

Is she in heat or have a history of reproductive issues?


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## teakwood (Aug 20, 2014)

Zexious said:


> I don't have any insight on why she may be doing this (but agree it's a good idea to get the chiro out!), but wanted to say this must be an extreme head flip if she's able to get her rein on the other side of her head ._.
> What sort of contact are you riding with?


Loose rein (not sloppy loose) but she goes off leg pressure and seat cues and voice.


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## teakwood (Aug 20, 2014)

Prairie said:


> Is she in heat or have a history of reproductive issues?


We have three mares and none of them show signs of heat. So that you can tell. I had one mare years ago that would squirt all over and back up to anything! These girls.... no obvious signs. One of them last week acted SO spooky over everything - so out of character. My husband's horse. So I told him to write it on the calendar and lets see if it happens again next month. She's been like that before and we keep saying... maybe she's coming in heat or is in heat but we forget to write it down and journal it. 
This mare of mine, does not have a history of reproductive issues. Doesn't seem to be sore or touchy back where ovary points would be. Had a mare that would literally almost sit down when you pressed back there when she was coming in.


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## teakwood (Aug 20, 2014)

And yes, she flips her head pretty good to make rein flip over to the other side! It's not just a little flip. It's a whip, flip. Like I said, this is a completely NEW behavior too. That's why I think something is ouchy somewhere. And she doesn't stop. When she just doesn't want to do something, she'll pin her ears and look back towards me and I tell her, "oh, no you don't, you go!" And she gives in and ears go forward and off she goes. At first I thought that was what she was doing and I kept on her but she wouldn't stop and I could tell..... I need to let her walk because something is not right.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

I've had a couple of horses that flip their head, root cause is a foretop that got long and was bothering them as it wrapped around their ears and let go again. Fix was to tuck in the foretop or braid it. FYI, it bothered them enough that it was difficult to maintain gait as it distracted them that much. 

Anyway, I like your plan of starting with the chiro!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

First, does she do it only when going in the direction away from home?
When a horse truly has a physical reason for some behavior, it is not dictated by where they are going
Sure, have her checked out, but don't dismiss that she is just showing her displeasure in being asked to ride out.
As an example, I gave a friend my trail horse to ride (Carmen ), just down the road, while I rode Charlie
Well, Carmen was soon tossing her head, acting like something was really bothering her. My friend tensed up, got off several times, and finally wound up walking back
I wanted to amke sure nothing was wrong, thus tied her up, while I un saddled Charlie, and then rode Carmen. She tried the head tossing, and general 'I don't want to go out again attitude, and I just gave her a few attention type reminders, booting her hips around several times, a bit of leg yielding, ect, gave her slack, and then she rode away from home and back, like her usual self-on a loose rein, no head tossing,tail swishing, totally relaxed and moving out at the speed I asked for


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## teakwood (Aug 20, 2014)

Smilie said:


> First, does she do it only when going in the direction away from home?
> When a horse truly has a physical reason for some behavior, it is not dictated by where they are going
> Sure, have her checked out, but don't dismiss that she is just showing her displeasure in being asked to ride out.
> As an example, I gave a friend my trail horse to ride (Carmen ), just down the road, while I rode Charlie
> ...


Nope. Both ways. Doesn't matter what direction.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The obvious things like getting her checked out have already been mentioned and also Darrin's suggestion about the forelock because that's something I've had experience with so agree with trying that
If its bugs that are bothering her then maybe try riding in something like the Cashel Quiet ride fly masks - we have a horse that has to be ridden in one as soon as the bugs appear
You say that her teeth have been done but has someone had a Gag on her and looked right down into her mouth with a lamp to check for signs of mouth ulcers, abscessed tooth, sore areas?
Is she messing about with the bit and trying to get her tongue over it?
If she's head flipping really badly I'd ride her in a running martingale until she stops doing it - it will prevent the reins ending up on the same side and could save you a broken nose or broken teeth (been there, done that and it hurts)


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Throwing this one out there since everything else has been mentioned...Could it be gnats/flies? We've had a bumper crop in our neck of the woods this year. It might explain why she wanted to trot and then still flipped the head when she was.


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## teakwood (Aug 20, 2014)

jaydee said:


> The obvious things like getting her checked out have already been mentioned and also Darrin's suggestion about the forelock because that's something I've had experience with so agree with trying that
> If its bugs that are bothering her then maybe try riding in something like the Cashel Quiet ride fly masks - we have a horse that has to be ridden in one as soon as the bugs appear
> You say that her teeth have been done but has someone had a Gag on her and looked right down into her mouth with a lamp to check for signs of mouth ulcers, abscessed tooth, sore areas?
> Is she messing about with the bit and trying to get her tongue over it?
> If she's head flipping really badly I'd ride her in a running martingale until she stops doing it - it will prevent the reins ending up on the same side and could save you a broken nose or broken teeth (been there, done that and it hurts)


that's how her teeth are done - with a gag and a light etc... The whole nine yards. Every bit of her mouth is looked at. She was actually good, no ulcerations. Just needed a yearly touch up and get everything smoothed up. 
She never messes with her bit. Just quiet. 
Her head doesn't go high. It goes kind of low and out with a flip so there is NO danger of her getting near me at all. 
There are flies out and that was something I thought about but she's totally fine walking or real slow jogging. When there are flies on her (I spray her face but those flies are pesky!!) she just does the normal flick of the nose out. Which is no big deal. I do have a fly mask to ride in but it was for a morgan that I had and it's too big for her. But I'm about 99% sure it's not a fly issue.


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## teakwood (Aug 20, 2014)

I did order an Arab sized quiet riding mask. My other little mare HATES flies on her face so I can use it on both of them. None of the fly sprays are working on these flies here on the trail. Fly mask, no worries. I don't think that's her whole issue but it sure can't hurt and she likes wearing her regular fly mask here at home.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I more describe what your horse is doing as just head shaking not real flipping - it does sound like a reaction to flies though ticks in the ears can cause the same thing and we had a member who's horse did it very badly and that was from a sodium potassium imbalance that was solved by increasing her salt intake - though that's probably something that you'd want to have blood tests done to confirm


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## teakwood (Aug 20, 2014)

chiro is coming out tomorrow but I think I know what she's doing to herself  Now that the weather is warm out, we have the windows open at night. I heard the BAM!!! at night. She's kicking the stall wall. She's not locked in. We don't even have doors on the stalls. There are 3 stalls, all open but separated for feeding purposes. At night they are all separated. Pipe corral make up the stalls and then plywood on half (hard to explain) because of a morgan I had. He was a kicker. Actually the foam rubber stuff is still up in that stall because of him. We never took it down. Yesterday, hubby put up a higher barrier so she couldn't see the other horse that is next to her. That didn't work. This morning I was sitting out on the back patio, hadn't let them out together yet and BAM!!!! She kicked. She's probably destroyed that leg. I'm sure I'll need to get xrays on it also. I'm so mad right now I can just spit!! I've had it with these horses!!! Each horse has about a 1/2 acre as a paddock off their stall. 3 horses. My next step is to switch the other two horses but I don't think that will matter because she KNOWS they can't get to her so why not just kick at them. I don't feed them together because the "kicker" is the FAT one. She gets less feed than the other two. My old one needs MORE food to keep weight on her and the other one will push everyone away from the food. One eats REAL slow, one fast, and the other one just about right. Sounds like the three bears.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Also look into a nose net

http://www.statelinetack.com/item/cashel-quiet-ride-nose-net/E002185/?


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## teakwood (Aug 20, 2014)

chiro came out. Amazingly her hind end was just fine - no negative reaction at all. Back was fine. Neck tho... was all knotted up. She needed quite a few adjustments there and her poll. That was kind of painful for her. Once she got adjusted up there tho, she started to chew and relax. She checked her hocks for pain, nothing. I'm sure that when they trot, they are using neck muscles in some way so maybe that was enough to cause her to flip her head when asked to trot. IDK. Chiro said that if she continues, she'll come out and do some acupuncture on her. So 2 days off and then back out and see how it goes. 
She's hoping it's not head shaking syndrome. She's never done this before tho and never at a walk, never at home, never at a really slow jog. The last few times chiro came out, she was always sore in her shoulders and hind end. Not this time tho and it's been 6 months since her last adjustment.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I would treat her for ulcers to see what happens. Worth a shot if the chiro adjustments didn't correct the behaviour. Yes, I agree with you, that head flipping syndrome is awful.


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## teakwood (Aug 20, 2014)

waresbear said:


> I would treat her for ulcers to see what happens. Worth a shot if the chiro adjustments didn't correct the behaviour. Yes, I agree with you, that head flipping syndrome is awful.


She doesn't have ulcers.


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## Cowgirl8285 (May 31, 2016)

I don't have as much knowledge as everyone else here. I'm reading and learning. But have you considered her ears? We have a fella at the barn that gets nasty ears and will shake his head if they are not cleaned regularly. Just tossing it out there. 

Hope you get it figured out.


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## teakwood (Aug 20, 2014)

Cowgirl8285 said:


> I don't have as much knowledge as everyone else here. I'm reading and learning. But have you considered her ears? We have a fella at the barn that gets nasty ears and will shake his head if they are not cleaned regularly. Just tossing it out there.
> 
> Hope you get it figured out.


ears are fine.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

.... SHE wanted to trot so I let her and I could then tell she was frustrated by her body language. Then the flip of the head started again. I made her walk at that point. We turned around and just headed back to the trailer because I don't want to ride her if she's hurting somewhere. We came to this little uphill where she always likes to trot up. She took a few strides and then broke into a really slow canter. I knew something was way different!
So..... I've got a call into the chiro and she's trying to fit us in on Wed. 
Just thought I'd throw this out and see if any of you have any insight on this. I know it's really hard to figure it out just thru typing it out without seeing her but I thought I would anyway.
I have not lunged her because there is NO place flat at my place. 
Did her stretching exercises here at home with her neck and she has really nice range of motion - don't see any sticky places there. 
On the way back to the trailer, she went into a really slow jog on her own and seemed fine, no head flipping.[/QUOTE]

The above is why I asked if she did the head flipping in both directions.

First< I get the impression she dictates the ride to some extent, being a'typical mare', a n idea which really should not be used, excusing any behavior.
She wanted to trot, so you let her. It was away from home, and she started to toss her head. You then made her walk, and turn towards home.
She a slow lope up a hill she usually likes to trot up- so, again, I can't help but get the idea she decides on the gait
She then went into a slow relaxed jog, no head tossing, continuing home
I would suspect if her ears were really bothering her, then the head tossing would continue, regardless of direction or gait
It is a very good idea to have her completely checked out for any problem, but if that possibility is cleared, maybe consider that she slowly has been assuming some control, far as how ans where she rides


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## teakwood (Aug 20, 2014)

Smilie said:


> .... SHE wanted to trot so I let her and I could then tell she was frustrated by her body language.  Then the flip of the head started again. I made her walk at that point. We turned around and just headed back to the trailer because I don't want to ride her if she's hurting somewhere. We came to this little uphill where she always likes to trot up. She took a few strides and then broke into a really slow canter. I knew something was way different!
> So..... I've got a call into the chiro and she's trying to fit us in on Wed.
> Just thought I'd throw this out and see if any of you have any insight on this. I know it's really hard to figure it out just thru typing it out without seeing her but I thought I would anyway.
> I have not lunged her because there is NO place flat at my place.
> ...


The above is why I asked if she did the head flipping in both directions.

First< I get the impression she dictates the ride to some extent, being a'typical mare', a n idea which really should not be used, excusing any behavior.
She wanted to trot, so you let her. It was away from home, and she started to toss her head. You then made her walk, and turn towards home.
She a slow lope up a hill she usually likes to trot up- so, again, I can't help but get the idea she decides on the gait
She then went into a slow relaxed jog, no head tossing, continuing home
I would suspect if her ears were really bothering her, then the head tossing would continue, regardless of direction or gait
It is a very good idea to have her completely checked out for any problem, but if that possibility is cleared, maybe consider that she slowly has been assuming some control, far as how ans where she rides[/QUOTE]


you are 100% right!!!! She's been cleared now of anything physical. Vet checked, no ulcers, teeth are good, gear is good, chiropractic cleared. chiro came out and everything was good on her except her neck and she fixed that but it wasn't anything screaming out --- major pain. Chiro said she checked out so good, to just get her re-checked twice a year now. So..... you are right! I took her out today after her 2 days off after her adjustment and still head tossing when I wanted her to do something. She also pinned her ears and looked back at me (this is not new). She has gotten a foot in her mouth before if she tries to make contact. She is just a bitchy mare! Wants it her way, trying to control everything. Now that I KNOW it's nothing physical, I made her work. None of this nonsense. She still did it but not as bad but she was not happy. TOUGH BEANS!!! When she tossed her head, I told her to keep trotting til I say walk. She pinned her ears once and looked back at me and gave her a good nudge in her ribs and told her, EHHH!!!! Keep going little mare!!! She gave in each time and just went. Threw in a couple of head tosses but it didn't get her anywhere. I did have a chashel quiet fly mask on and it didn't make any difference. Only that no flies were on her face  But she seemed to do fine with it. Not more spooky or anything. I talked with smart pak and they did suggest putting her on the smart pak mare pellets. I can do a 2 month trial and if there is no improvement in her attitude, then I can just get a full refund. So, I'm ok trying it. You'd think she'd give up trying these antics since they don't get her anywhere. Although she was really bad today because I did let her get away with it the last two rides BEFORE the chiro appointment because I didn't know if she was in pain and I didn't want to be un-fair. So today she thought, well, it worked before, why is this not working!!!??? Ok, I'll try pinning my ears now!! Hmm.. that didn't work. Why is she making me go today?? LOL!!!!! She's a VERY smart horse and tries to intimidate her rider because she doesn't want to do something. I'm not afraid of her. She wanted to slow jog today also and I said, "NOPE, there is nothing wrong with you, let's pick it up!!!" She did after she did a head flip. Whatevs..... My husband will ride her next and he's tougher on her than I am. So far, fingers crossed she hasn't bucked or done anything really bad. It's all either head tossing or pinning her ears. The ONLY time she has ever bucked (and I came off) was because it was a bad fitting saddle. Way too wide for her. And she said, "I have had enough of this thing - it hurts!!!" As soon as I got a saddle that fits her, never bucked again.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

At the risk of being assaulted by everyone on the forum, I will say that every arab I have ever owned had this problem at one time or another. Different things have worked on different horses.

1. One horse quit when I went to a milder bit. An eggbut snaffle rather than a mild curb.

2. One horse quit when I put a tie down on her; however, I will NEVER put a tiedown on an arab again. She flipped her head, got scared at getting her nose bonked, reared up, and just barely caught her balance as she almost fell over on top of me. She never flipped her head again though.

3. The arab I ride now will agree not to flip her head if I do all of the following.

-- Braid her mane so it doesn't touch her ears.
-- Use "Swat" on her ears for flies
-- Use a running martingale
-- Use the saddle pad that she likes after 8 different ones I bought
-- And I ride her often.

Miss any of those things, and the head goes to flipping.

I think that arabs are high strung horses, and I am an amateur rider rather than a professional trainer, I don't ride often enough, and therefore I have an overly excited horse.

I don't know if any of this is relevant to you.

I will say that none of the stock type horses I have owned in the past or even the gaited horses that I rode ever thought of all that head flipping.


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## teakwood (Aug 20, 2014)

Celeste said:


> At the risk of being assaulted by everyone on the forum, I will say that every arab I have ever owned had this problem at one time or another. Different things have worked on different horses.
> 
> 1. One horse quit when I went to a milder bit. An eggbut snaffle rather than a mild curb.
> 
> ...



I have owned Arabs for about 25+ years. Never had a head flipper. I've had one that would crow hop when either excited or angry (she was my main endurance horse). She would raise her head up because of competition so I did use a running martingale on her for her whole life. I think I will braid at least the first part of her main and her forelock. I used to clip a good sized bridle path but quit doing that many years ago on other horses. the saddle pad that she likes and I always use is a skito pad. I was using a felt wool one and she hated it - that or the saddle?? But she's pretty happy with this set up. Bit, she's in a mild D ring snaffle myler bit with a port to give her tongue room. I also don't ride that often. I get out 3 times a week but i have 2 horses to ride. My other older Arab is a gem. NEVER argues about anything. She's not super comfortable out front unless it's open territory but other than that, she's a gem.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Celeste said:


> At the risk of being assaulted by everyone on the forum, I will say that every arab I have ever owned had this problem at one time or another. Different things have worked on different horses.
> 
> 1. One horse quit when I went to a milder bit. An eggbut snaffle rather than a mild curb.
> 
> ...


Well, any breed of horse can get in the habit of head flipping, including stock horses, as I know of some, but you are very correct that a tie down is NEVER the answer
If I see a horse with a tie down, other then in roping or games, I think, 'not really broke'. It is also a bad idea to use it as a bandaid solution, esp trail riding. I know of horses that have drowned, trail ridden with a tie down. One was not even crossing a river, but riding along a bank, under mined by a recent flood. Bank gave way, horse and rider fell in, rider got to shore, horse could not get head up to swim, and drowned
Carmen will occasionally try that head flipping, and in fact, tried it with my friend, who came out to ride with me 
She was sure something was bothering her,a nd got off several times, fianlly walking home.
I wanted to make sure nothing was wrong, so after un saddling Charlie, who I was riding, I got on Carmen to check her out. Same saddle, as my friend was using the saddle I just have for Carmen
Well, she started a little head tossing, not to pleased to ride out again, and I just said, ;hey , it;s me, and smarten up"! I did that by taking hold of her, booting her hips around a few times, and a few other body control exercises, and she rode off on a loose rein, quiet head, both coming and going
tHE LOOSE rein is a reward, when the horse is going correctly, an dif they are not, they get contact and some wke up exercises with my leg-but then, eqaully impostant, act as if nothing happened, pitch them slack, and allow them to do the right and easy thing. If you jsut try to hold them all the time, with something like a tiedown, they learn nothing!
You want to nip that head flipping of protest in the bud, as some horses will escalate to going up

OP, glad you had a positive ride!


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## teakwood (Aug 20, 2014)

yeah, with this horse I think it is now a matter of just letting her know it's not going to get her anywhere. I HOPE she doesn't up the anty but knowing her, I don't think she will. Today even with a stern, EHHHH!!! sound, she straightened up and looked forward. I also gave her a hard nudge in her ribs letting her know, NO, we ARE going to trot! And she did. She's trying to pull out all her little tricks to get out of doing things. Even when she sort of spooks and goes off trail, I keep her going as if nothing happened and keep her trotting. I don't care that we are in the brush now and on un-even ground, TROT and get back on the trail.  It may not look super pretty but it gets done and in her mind, she got away with nothing. My husband is even better at getting her to just behave and stop calling all the shots so he's going to ride her next time out.


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