# Questioning trainer's advice re: running martingale.



## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Hello, HF!

As many of you know, my girl has just been under saddle for a couple months, and she is currently in the last two weeks of her 60 days training.

The trainer is wonderful. She is so nice, knowledgeable, and is gentle but firm. She has gotten Sun to a nice w/t/c plus stop/back, and up until now I have been SO pleased.

But, a couple weeks ago she told me that she used a running martingale on Sun. Curious, I asked if she had been throwing her head, because to my knowledge a martingale is only used to prevent a horse from knocking you in the head when they toss their head. Is this not correct?

To my surprise, she replied that, no, she hadn't been throwing her head, but she was using the martingale to teach collection and to get her to move from behind.

I may be wrong, but isn't that an improper use of a martingale? Wouldn't it just do the opposite and bring her on the forehand? Or give a false sense of collection?

And on another note, Sun is just rising four. Isn't it way too early to be thinking about collection, when she isn't even balanced at a canter yet?

I don't know. Am I wrong to be concerned, or is my thought process correct?

I haven't said anything about it because, well, she's a lot more knowledgeable than me and I don't want to be insulting.

Oh; also, she said that the first time she used it Sunny bucked a little because it was "forcing her to work harder." But, a martingale shouldn't interfere with the horse if it's adjusted properly, right?

Sorry for the long-winded post. I just want some reassurance; either that my suspicions are correct or that the trainer really does know what she's doing.

Thank you for any insight!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BCtazzie (Jun 7, 2011)

From my stand point, you are right. Incorrect use of a martingale. how is she hooking that thing up if it's being used for "collection" ? you sure it's a running? is she?

I wouldn't be collecting until I had balance. Asking too much from a young horse too soon does not go well for the horse.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Sunny this will not be the last time that you question your instructor's methods and opinion. 

Without seeing your horse, nor speaking with your instructor, I would tend to agree with you. A horse adopts an outline because it feels comfortable to ride with the head in the verticle position - it has developed the muscles which bring about a rounded outline. But it takes some time for those muscles to develop.

A martingale will pull the horse's head down - which is something different.
I see it as a device to stop the horse evading the rider's hands. It is useful when riding in a group of excited horses.

If you ride a well schooled horse with the head in a position of ramener , then there will be no need for you to do anythng but maintain a very light contact on the horses mouth. The horse will willingly adopt the correct head and neck position with the poll held high. If you use the martingale to pull the horse's head down then the feeling is completely different.

But don't argue with your instructor - discuss the situation. You, as owner have the responsibility for your horse's well being. You have the last word, but just make sure you are correct in your viewpoint.

A simple way to resolve your feelings, is to ride a well schooled horse which already works in an outline, so that you can feel the difference for youself. (Your problem might be to get the owner to allow you to ride the horse).


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

It's definitely a running martingale, but I have not actually seen her use it because the trainer usually works with her while I'm in class.

All I can go by is word of mouth, which has been, "I've been using a running martingale on her to teach collection and to get her to move from behind."

She also wants me to buy one so I can use it on her when the training is over, but I don't feel comfortable doing that. I just know that once I voice my opinion I'm going to be told that I'm wrong, and then let the big-barn drama begin....

Thanks for everyone's advice. I'm going to talk to her tonight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Just remember - a running or german martingale can be adjusted with a lot of room for forgiveness.

In the cow horse world, many trainers use german martingales to keep the horse from tossing their head and hollowing out the back -prevents the horse from dumping and turning on the forehand when they need to work off their hind quarters.

It's a play on leverage and in the right hands, it can work.

I like to do a lot of dry work on balance and collection on my own horses. Ground poles, roll backs, sweeps, etc to gain frame and coordination and thrust from the hind quarters but I'm not being paid to get a horse ready for the show pen.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Thanks for that info, MLS!
That's sort of what I was hoping to hear, that in the right hands it could be effective.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Sunny, We Brits would mostly think to start serious training when the horse is four, whereas in the US, you guys seem to want to back the horse and bring it on at a much earlier age. On our yard we might be lungeing your horse in a pessoa without the weight of a rider on its back. 

Only racehorse TBs get worked hard when youngsters and all they have to do in life is to run fast in a straight line - then afterwards, when they lose too often, we get them back to give them the basic training they never had.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Sunny was introduced to consistent riding at 3 1/2, although not "hard" riding. She's only been cantering for about two weeks, and she turns four April 1.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

mls said:


> Just remember - a running or german martingale can be adjusted with a lot of room for forgiveness.
> 
> In the cow horse world, many trainers use german martingales to keep the horse from tossing their head and hollowing out the back -prevents the horse from dumping and turning on the forehand when they need to work off their hind quarters.
> 
> ...


Really like this post! Far too many people think martingales, training forks, draw reins etc are for "getting a head set". They are actually for what MLS described....at least that's why I use them. it's all about correct body use from the horse, and these tools can help in getting that correct body use and to ehance it. 

As for the horse described in this post, the OP's horse....I don't think enough foundation has been laid down yet to start using these tools. And if the horse is progressing well through correct training, these tools may not ever be needed. It's taken on a case-by-case basis on the individual horse.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

There is a huge difference between a running and a standing martingale. I see absolutely nothing wrong with a running martingale that is properly adjusted, and I always ride with one.


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## Shropshirerosie (Jan 24, 2012)

I agree with MLS, in my experience, people use running martingales when their horse is raising their head to get above the bit contact, hollow their back, and generally ignore their rider. I've seen it used many times as a 'control' aid with mature horses who have a tendency to 'sod off' with their rider on board.

But I've _never_ seen it used as a training aid on any age or level of horse!

The pessoa (also mentioned by MLS I think), and various similar gadgets can be used while lungeing to encourage the horse to come 'down and round', to collect itself and use it's back end more. But that's when there's no rider on board! If the trainer is a competent rider, then he or she should be more than capable of encouraging the horse to develop this collection. 

The other matter of the age of the horse I'll leave to others to debate.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Shropshirerosie said:


> *I agree with MLS, in my experience, people use running martingales when their horse is raising their head to get above the bit contact, hollow their back, and generally ignore their rider. I've seen it used many times as a 'control' aid with mature horses who have a tendency to 'sod off' with their rider on board.*
> 
> But I've _never_ seen it used as a training aid on any age or level of horse!
> 
> ...


I like this in the bold and I agree. It seems the trained and older/wiser horses will try and chump you (or sod off as you said) and they need a reminder. I use draw reins sometimes on my horse for this very reason. Except I don't use it as a control aid....but rather, "hey, you know better but I will remind you" aid.

And collection is the END result of proper training, not what you should expect at the BEGINNING of training.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

To get "collection" you have to bring the energy up from behind and then be able to hold it up so your horse doesn't just go faster. The first thing you need is to get your horse to break at the poll. There are easier, simpler and more effective ways to achieve a broken poll and rounded outline than using a running martingale. If you spend ten minutes a day working on getting your horse to break at the poll at a standstill and then move on to a walk and trot and finally a canter your horse will be happier and look nicer in frame. It's so easy, I wonder why so many people insist on using martingales instead of just using thier hands properly.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Thanks so much to everyone for giving me such a wide range of opinions!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> To get "collection" you have to bring the energy up from behind and then be able to hold it up so your horse doesn't just go faster. The first thing you need is to get your horse to break at the poll. There are easier, simpler and more effective ways to achieve a broken poll and rounded outline than using a running martingale. If you spend ten minutes a day working on getting your horse to break at the poll at a standstill and then move on to a walk and trot and finally a canter your horse will be happier and look nicer in frame. *It's so easy, I wonder why so many people insist on using martingales instead of just using thier hands properly*.


Well, because it's REALLY about using leg and seat INTO hand that people can't do properly. All 3 aids support each other, it's not just about what you do with your hands....the other 2 aids come first in the list.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Sunny, interestingly, if you read back thru the posts, everyone is pretty much in agreement - but they have each made a comment from a slightly different perspective.

Your original statement that you thought the instructor was using the martingale incorrectly was pretty much confirmed. That's not what they are for.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Are you riding western or english. There are huge differences in what is considered correct in both the use of a running martingale and what constitutes 'collection'.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

It's English, Allison.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I hope I'm not too late.

LET ME INTERRUPT! 

A running martingale helps a {green} horse to stay down. And by staying down, I don't mean pulling them down, forcing them into a frame. I mean keeping them from head going up to the sky and being hollow. 

This means... you do not see saw the bit in the horse's mouth and shorten the reins so much that the horse is put into a false outline, leaning on the rings because it has nowhere to go, and being hollow.

It's kind of like side reins for the lunge-lining. They are there to encourage the horse to use its back. They are NOT there to force the horse into a low headset. 

Same with the running martingale. The western peeps have a similar tool called the "training fork."

As with all equipment, in the wrong hands and with the wrong expectations or reasons, it can be very BAD.

However... they are helpful and they can be weaned off of them easily so long as _*YOU*_ don't let the horse lean on the martingale. Which means_* YOU*_ ride the mare _forward forward forward _and soften soften soften!!! Don't let her pull you down to get out of using her back.

DO NOT treat the martingale as a tie down.. or a restriction. 

That is my opinion from experience.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Thanks, Sky! 

I have not ridden Sun it in yet; actually, I've never ridden in one at all. I've always followed the less-is-more technique, but I've also never worked with a horse as green as Sunny.

Really appreciating all of the input!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Skyseternalangel said:


> However... they are helpful and they can be weaned off of them easily so long as _*YOU*_ don't let the horse lean on the martingale. Which means_* YOU*_ ride the mare _forward forward forward _and soften soften soften!!! Don't let her pull you down to get out of using her back.
> 
> .


 
If you ride your horse like this and have control of your hands then you won't need one.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Yes less is more but some horses need the extra hand. Every horse is different.. if she works fine (w/t/c/etc.) without it, then so be it. If she needs it as kind of like training wheels because she forgets sometimes.. then so be it.



kevinshorses said:


> If you ride your horse like this and have control of your hands then you won't need one.



And I ride my horse like that and we still have problems, mainly at the canter (it's new, and he has gotten away and gotten others OFF by throwing his head up, going hollow, and taking off.)

Like I said, some horses need the extra step.

As my trainer says "he's still not comfortable in his own skin at the canter" which is 100% true.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Yes less is more but some horses need the extra hand. Every horse is different.. if she works fine (w/t/c/etc.) without it, then so be it. If she needs it as kind of like training wheels because she forgets sometimes.. then so be it.


Horses don't need it. PEOPLE need it because they aren't riding properly. Do you just want to ride or do you want to be a horseman? Give your horse a chance to figure it out. If you pull on the rein and her head goes up don't release the pressure until her head comes down. It will take longer but it will look nicer and your horse will work better.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> *Horses don't need it. PEOPLE need it because they aren't riding properly*. Do you just want to ride or do you want to be a horseman? Give your horse a chance to figure it out. If you pull on the rein and her head goes up don't release the pressure until her head comes down. It will take longer but it will look nicer and your horse will work better.


Exactly.
I've not met a horse that "needs" anything beyond a bridle and saddle (and maybe a bucking strap ) to be ridden.
I have however had a horse of mine ruined because of gadget use, and not just mentally. The damage done to her neck and the chronic inflammation as a result lead her to be retired before the age of 10.

Any "trainer" that "needs" a martingale on my young horse, personally, would not be "training" my horse anymore.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Thank you, anebel! I was hoping you or Kayty would respond.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Another thought, we used to use a running martingale on young, or sensitive horses when used in lessons. It was thought that the running kept at least the angle of the reins pretty constant when people don't have quiet hands


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Exactly.
> I've not met a horse that "needs" anything beyond a bridle and saddle (and maybe a bucking strap ) to be ridden.
> 
> 
> *Any "trainer" that "needs" a martingale on my young horse, personally, would not be "training" my horse anymore.*


Agree with the bold, they haven't had a chance to learn yet.. putting a martingale on is like giving a teenager a scooter. They're going to use the scooter to get from point a to point b instead of walking like they should.

But seriously guys, I'm not doing anything wrong. It's him, getting away with it once (with someone else.. and on other occasions I've corrected him and he was fine after that) but now it's becoming a dangerous game. Apparently he thought since I corrected him before, he has to try harder to avoid cantering and using his back.

I am riding "properly" and I'd invite you all to give it a whirl. We're going to keep working on correcting it (see that's the damned problem with having others ride your horse.. urgh) so he cuts the crap.

In theory, yes everyone is right. But in reality, no horse is text book perfect. They aren't all soft and supple and calm. They have personalities, they think, they feel, they have driving needs and get unfocused. 

I'm done defending my right to use a damned training fork on my horse.

Nope I lied...



kevinshorses said:


> Horses don't need it. PEOPLE need it because they aren't riding properly. Do you just want to ride or do you want to be a horseman? Give your horse a chance to figure it out. If you pull on the rein and her head goes up don't release the pressure until her head comes down. It will take longer but it will look nicer and your horse will work better.


And I do hold the pressure, he pulls harder. That's when he bolts and problems come up. I can stay on fine but when he ducks and starts running sideways, towards fences, ignoring my weight, ignoring my rein aids, ignoring my voice and then I lose my balance, sure it's my fault for not sitting up enough and not keeping with him, and maybe I could have spent more time on the ground telling him "ho" means stop and walk means change your feet and speed to a walk, I thought he was prepared.. he didn't act up until recently. I don't let him get away with anything, but he caught me off guard.

I'm new to cantering too so maybe I should have done something else. But the fact of the matter is, it helps HIM it reminds HIM. Reminds.. not forces.. not pushes or pulls or keeps him from moving freely. If I choke up on the reins, then maybe yes it would.

So you can sit there on the other side of that screen and keep thinking "oh she's not riding him correctly, she's using a fork" while I sit here trying to figure out how I'm going to nip this dangerous game in the butt.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

GotaDunQH said:


> Well, because it's REALLY about using leg and seat INTO hand that people can't do properly. All 3 aids support each other, it's not just about what you do with your hands....the other 2 aids come first in the list.


I expect the trainer to know how to use hands/seat/legs correctly though. 

I agree with others: if a "trainer" would need any gadgets to train my horse I'd look for a different trainer. _May be_ you'll need extras on ruined horse. But for fresh greenie not knowing anything simplest snaffle and saddle is enough for the start and basic foundation IMHO.


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## eliduc (Apr 5, 2010)

I always put a running martingale on my green horses for awhile for two reasons. It does keep their poll away from your nose and may prevent a blow up. The second reason is it helps position the head in the beginning of a turn. Was that three reasons? It's a fallacy that the martingale pulls the front end down. If it is being used right and the horse's hindquarters are being pushed forward it will actually aid in balancing the horse. The idea is always take a little with the reins, submission and give a little with the reins. You shouldn't be bowing your horse's neck with it. That being said the running martingale is a gimmick that I discard as soon as my horse becomes somewhat responsive. I might only use it for a few rides.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I'm new to cantering too so maybe I should have done something else. But the fact of the matter is, it helps HIM it reminds HIM. Reminds.. not forces.. not pushes or pulls or keeps him from moving freely. If I choke up on the reins, then maybe yes it would.
> 
> So you can sit there on the other side of that screen and keep thinking "oh she's not riding him correctly, she's using a fork" while I sit here trying to figure out how I'm going to nip this dangerous game in the butt.


 
If you are new to cantering then the chances that you are riding properly are slim. It's not your fault. You're just inexperienced. 

If you have to use that running martingale to stay safe on your horse while you're learning to ride then that's absolutely what you should do. Just keep in mind that it's not the only way and it's not the best way.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Behavior issues and issues undersaddle don't just "crop up" because the horse "feels like it"... horses genuinely want to please and 99% of "misbehaviors" are the result of the horse either doing what it thinks the rider wants, or getting frustrated that the rider is blocking it from doing what the rider is asking the horse to do. Horses always have a reason, and horses never lie.

That's all that I'm going to say on the subject of horses misbehaving, as it is off topic.

A running martingale, relatively speaking, is the lesser of many evils, however. Anyone riding a young horse such that it feels the need to be flinging it's head in the air to the degree a running martingale is ever engages really needs to dismount and do more work on the long lines, and potentially lunging. I feel that a horse should be responsive enough to the aids with the ground work that's been done that having a rider on it's back should not change the aids it is used to with regards to steering and go/stop, or at least not in a way that a running martingale would positively influence. I only see them engaging and serving as a way to constrict the horse's neck and would far rather have the power to direct rein one side of the neck than have every motion of my hand transfered to a downward, backward pull on the horse's mouth.

But, that is just my opinion


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> If you are new to cantering then the chances that you are riding properly are slim. It's not your fault. You're just inexperienced.
> 
> If you have to use that running martingale to stay safe on your horse while you're learning to ride then that's absolutely what you should do. Just keep in mind that it's not the only way and it's not the best way.


 There was no "Like" button.. so I'm liking this manually. Very good points kevin.

Sky, you are not claiming to be a horse trainer so no one is expecting you to ride like one.

Any horse trainer that wants to get on a horse with gadgets, is not a horse trainer in my opinion.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> There was no "Like" button.. so I'm liking this manually. Very good points kevin.
> 
> Sky, you are not claiming to be a horse trainer so no one is expecting you to ride like one.
> 
> Any horse trainer that wants to get on a horse with gadgets, is not a horse trainer in my opinion.



Thank you.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> *I expect the trainer to know how to use hands/seat/legs correctly though.*
> 
> I agree with others: if a "trainer" would need any gadgets to train my horse I'd look for a different trainer. _May be_ you'll need extras on ruined horse. But for fresh greenie not knowing anything simplest snaffle and saddle is enough for the start and basic foundation IMHO.


Oh, I absolutely agree with you, but alas there are some trainers that will "shorten" the training time by using gadgets on a green horse...instead of just taking a little longer to reach the same goal WITHOUT a gadget.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

GotaDunQH said:


> Oh, I absolutely agree with you, but alas there are some trainers that will "shorten" the training time by using gadgets on a green horse...instead of just taking a little longer to reach the same goal WITHOUT a gadget.


True. I just wouldn't send my own horse to such. Shortcuts are never an answer. But yes, some people prefer to get it fast to save on training or just get it on time for the show.


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## cowgirlup07 (Mar 13, 2008)

new to this thread but I've read over it and here is my opinion on some of what I've read. If it sounds rude I am sorry, not meaning to but not too good with words either lol.

I do agree that martingales shouldn't be used on very green horses as there is risk involved to the horse if it is used poorly. But contradicting here, I also adherents they can and do help a lot of horses. 

I've read a few people say its not the horse, its the rider BUT what do you tell someone that's been training for nearly 16 years that has found a few HORSES that needed a martingale? I am that trainer and I have a gelding now that is very green, he was started late and at almost 6 years old has the training of a normal American 3 - 3 1/2 year old (I specify American not to offend anyone but due to Americans breaking and training their horses generally at a younger age than most other countries) I will say HE honestly NEEDS aids. He will do fine at w/t/c stop turns everything until he just gets this "I'm not listening to you anymore" way about him and will buck hop and carry on, yes I correct him (he is my personal horse that I purchased recently not an outside horse) but sometimes that's just not enough. I have a very soft hand, sometime too soft due to the kinds of horses I have trained in the past but I am also firm at the same time if that makes since. I don't let him by with it, nor any other horse but aids can be very useful to teach numerous things. 

Its all really just preference in how you want your horse. I have plenty of time to "argue" with my horse as I don't have any outside horses in for training right now so I am trying to solve these issues with no aids at all, only a saddle and bridle. Not everyone has this luxury of abundant time to work a horse. And really I don't have it either, I slack on my other chores LOL! 

On fresh just started horses or just being re-started I honestly think and firmly believe that even a sniffle bit is too much, everybody that comes to me loves the way I train because every animal is started in a halter and lead or a training bosal, never a bit until I know the horse knows how to give and respect pressure so to speak that way I don't have to pull on his/her mouth and even when I put the bit in their mouth I keep the halter on and use it until the horse is used to the bit just being there before I use it at all.

just my opinion. If I upset anyone, I am sorry. I'm not meaning to upset anyone, I very much see BOTH sides of all this. 

if your trainer is already using the martingale, this either means your horse learned balance way faster than most or she is using the aid way wrong.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

I haven't read all the posts

I use a running martingale. My horse is green, and it backs up as a neck strap.

HOWEVER I would NEVER use a German Martingale on a green horse, or any horse for that matter. It doesn't allow for enough movement for the neck and head of a green, unbalanced horse. It also doesn't allow for correct riding as there is a constant pressure, resulting in leaning on the hands/forehand or a horse that trips. IMO a german martingale gives more problems than solutions.

A running martingale is a great tool, if used correctly, and not so much like a training fork that will position the heads horse. If the horse, being green and in education, flicks its head up, or tries to evade it can only evade so much.

Also, rearing (if this does happen) a German martingale, along with side reins etc gives no chance for the horse to attempt to balance itself, whereas a martingale does.


Collection will come with time, as has been mentioned. Green=go. Get your horse moving forwards correctly for now and focus on that. 

Basically.. yes to the running martingale

NO to the German martingale.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

GotaDunQH said:


> Well, because it's *REALLY about using leg and seat INTO hand that people can't do properly*. All 3 aids support each other, it's not just about what you do with your hands....the other 2 aids come first in the list.


EXACTLY.

Most people try to pull the horse into frame instead of encouraging them into it. Thus the leverage options and the RIGHT hands.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Question: Is there a particular way in which a running martingale should be used? Or maybe the question is, what is the "correct" adjustment?

The woman I got my horse from has started dozens of horses and she always uses the r.m.-- I don't know if all her horses need it, but she feels safer, so it's just normal for her. The problem is, when she sells them, the horses now seem to NEED it. I'm wondering if it's because she has the rings set a little low: about 4" below the withers. 

It's a popular piece of tack, and I'm trying to understand this better.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Beling said:


> Question: Is there a particular way in which a running martingale should be used? Or maybe the question is, what is the "correct" adjustment?
> 
> The woman I got my horse from has started dozens of horses and she always uses the r.m.-- I don't know if all her horses need it, but she feels safer, so it's just normal for her. The problem is, when she sells them, the horses now seem to NEED it. I'm wondering if it's because she has the rings set a little low: about 4" below the withers.
> 
> It's a popular piece of tack, and I'm trying to understand this better.


For me - the horse ridden on a normal rein isn't going to know it's there. If I really pick up on my reins - then I start getting the leverage and asking for implusion. It's the same feeling you get when a horse trots the ground poles correctly and you can feel the horse come up under it's self. Very cool.

If a horse has a tendency to be strung out and high headed, you can adjust it a bit snug so the horse feels the pressure sooner.

I like to change up the bits and maybe throw on a martingale when I am doing dry work. See what the horse works best in - or to work on an issue we had at the previous practice or competition. 

Dry work (schooling) is the time to work on and through problems.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

mls said:


> If a horse has a tendency to be strung out and high headed, you can adjust it a bit snug so the horse feels the pressure sooner.


Wouldn't it force certain horses to rear up?


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I've said this many times because the improper use of martingales is starting to become a pet peeve, of sorts.

The martingale is never a training tool when it is used PROPERLY in the english world (I won't go into the use of western training forks). If adjusted properly, the horse will have to have his head very high before it will even affect the reins in any way.

A martingale is simply a corrective device. It keeps the horse from throwing its head up so high that it becomes dangerous for the rider.

You trainer using it as a training device is using it incorrectly. She is using it as a shortcut to proper riding. In no way should a running martingale, used properly, help to "keep the head into a "frame". Only leg/seat/hands can do that.

Shortcuts will always have a cost, in the long run. Sooner or later, the GAP in the horse's training that was covered up by the improper use of this equipment will rear its ugly head. Then, you are doomed to go back and fix the problem that was covered up then. 

Not fixing the problem correctly, may keep the horse from being able to reach its full potential, IME.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Thanks so much to everyone for their input. I appreciate it greatly!

And advice on how I should go about telling my trainer about my concerns, without being arrogant or condescending, or disrespectful?

I just know that once I say, "I don't want one on Sunny because I just think a r.m. should only be used for (insert proper purpose here)," she'll respond, "No, that's incorrect. It's used for (insert improper purpose here)" and etc. And I won't know how to respond because I respect her so much.

Besides, I already get the feeling that everyone at the barn thinks I'm a moron....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Be brave and tell her that a R.M. is best used for filling up a garbage can. If she needs to know more then I'll give you my e-mail address and phone number. Not only would this help you and your horse but it would help her. She just doesn't know it yet.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Sunny said:


> Besides, I already get the feeling that everyone at the barn thinks I'm a moron....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That probably means you're headed in the right direction.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Thanks for the advice, Kevin.

Since I moved in May of last year, this has been my first experience being around a large group of other horsey people. Before then I was always free to do whatever I wanted with my horse, how I wanted to do it, with no questions asked. Now I'm at a large boarding barn, and boy, is it a change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Be brave and tell her that a R.M. is best used for filling up a garbage can. If she needs to know more then I'll give you my e-mail address and phone number. Not only would this help you and your horse but it would help her. She just doesn't know it yet.


 I just re-read this. I meant that throwing away the running martingale would help everyone involved not having my e-mail and phone number. I'm nothing special. Just a guy on the same journey as everyone else.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Bahahaha. I didn't even catch that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Sunny,
Up the back in the Horse Articles forum I have posted a story concerning me and my old horse Joe - who could be a bit of a thug. It would not be appropriate to post it on this thread.

When you've got the time, then read it - it is a long read. 

It tells how when I used to go out on 'fun' rides - when it was very approprate to fit a harsher bit and a running martingale. Otherwise my horse would have disgraced me.

Don't lose heart - you'll manage.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Allison Finch said:


> You trainer using it as a training device is using it incorrectly. She is using it as a shortcut to proper riding.


We don't know why this trainer is using it.

Think of it as cones in drivers ed. They guide where you are supposed to be. A martingale (AGAIN USED CORRECTLY) will let a horse know where they are supposed to be. They should not be used 100%, every ride but on some schooling rides to help a horse know where you want them to be.

They can also aid to see IF the horse can collect where it's supposed to be. Another aid for the rider to see if the horse is having physical issues. CAN the horse get under itself when encouraged. If not - time to do some back, hock, poll, saddle, mouth, etc checking.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

kitten_Val said:


> Wouldn't it force certain horses to rear up?


No - you should be pushing - not pulling.


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## eliduc (Apr 5, 2010)

Cowgirl You didn't upset me. I just want to know how a "sniffle" bit works and where I can get one


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## cowgirlup07 (Mar 13, 2008)

lol I ment snaffle. My iPad corrects spelling and doesn't recognize most "horse" terms.


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## eliduc (Apr 5, 2010)

GotaDunQH said:


> Oh, I absolutely agree with you, but alas there are some trainers that will "shorten" the training time by using gadgets on a green horse...instead of just taking a little longer to reach the same goal WITHOUT a gadget.


Ok. So the client is paying $500 a month or more. If the gadget shortens the training time and "reaches the same goal" shouldn't that make the client really happy? I personally don't think its ethical for a trainer to spend three months trying to work out a problem that could have been solved in two weeks with the use of a gadget just because the trainer is a purist. I am not a fan of gadgets but I am even less of a fan of being a close minded purist. There are circumstances where a gadget is a useful tool if used right. Being too rigid and close minded and not accepting that there is more than one way to reach the same goal is very limiting. One way of doing things does not always work with every horse. Every horse is different. It's necessary to be flexible some times.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Never thought I'd have a thread reach 6 pages. :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Annnie31 (May 26, 2011)

This thread is interesting..getting many view points and I agree with those who say using a running martingale has its place when used properly in training. 
If we use one it is used with alot of drape and it is never engaged unless a correction is needed.

Before deciding if your trainer is not tallented enough to use one have a conversation with her about what she is using it for, ask her to ride your horse to see if she is using drape or just putting alot of pressure on the horse (will not work). You went to this trainer for a reason, you have liked her work to date, so dont go off all worried until you see and talk to her one on one about it.

If your trainer is a good one, she will show you how and why she is using it.

Best of Luck


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## Shropshirerosie (Jan 24, 2012)

Sunny said:


> And advice on how I should go about telling my trainer about my concerns, without being arrogant or condescending, or disrespectful?
> 
> I just know that once I say, "I don't want one on Sunny because I just think a r.m. should only be used for (insert proper purpose here)," she'll respond, "No, that's incorrect. It's used for (insert improper purpose here)" and etc. And I won't know how to respond because I respect her so much.
> 
> ...


Repeat in your head "it's my horse and my money. I pay you to help me, I am the boss"

Then say to her along the lines of "I've been doing lots of thinking about how I want to bring Sunny along, and one of the things that I've decided is that I don't want to use a RM as an aid. I understand why you've been using one, and I can see that it has some benefits, but I'd rather take the slower route to achieving good results."

Whatever your trainer says in response just say that you understand what he/she is saying, but that you are certain you know what you want. If they don't respect your viewpoint, then get another trainer who will.

This isn't about whether you are 'right' or not, it's about the fact that you are paying someone to improve your horse, and they either do it your way or not at all. There are a lot of great trainers out there - it's okay to respect one, but choose another with whom you agree more.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Annnie31 said:


> Before deciding if your trainer is not tallented enough to use one have a conversation with her about what she is using it for, ask her to ride your horse to see if she is using drape or just putting alot of pressure on the horse (will not work). You went to this trainer for a reason, you have liked her work to date, so dont go off all worried until you see and talk to her one on one about it.


Absolutely!

It's perfectly ok to ask WHY. I like questions because then I am sure the person I am explaining something to understands the point I am trying to make. I didn't say agree with me - just understands.

Having all of the facts makes for a better decision.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Thanks so much to everyone. I really appreciate it!

To whoever told me to ask her why she's using it-- I already have, twice.

I texted her one day and asked, and then I asked her in person at the barn to have a better explanation. Both times she said, "Collection and to get her to move from the hind end." 

I am going to talk to her again, though. Thanks so much!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

how does a running martingale get them to move better from their hind end ??


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

That is where my original concern came from, gypsy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

gypsygirl said:


> how does a running martingale get them to move better from their hind end ??


Leverage.

Keeps their torso in line.

They don't hollow out their back.

Rocks them onto their hind quaters.

Again - in the right hands. It's a feel - some folks have it. Many don't and just let the horse brace on it.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I've used martingales. Not on babies but sometimes on retrain horses towards the end of their retraining. I like the German martingales best. The martingale rein is always set very loose and it seldom comes into contact but when it does it can give & take much faster than any human can react. There is no contact unless the horse initiates it. These are usually horses who have learned many tricks to get out of doing whatever. 
Luckily my martingale has a thick coating of dust on it as I seldom run across one who needs it. Usually one or two sessions in the martingale is all it takes.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Sunny said:


> "Collection and to get her to move from the hind end."


Sounds like a load of BS to me. Sorry. If my trainer would hear that she'd scream...


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

gypsygirl said:


> how does a running martingale get them to move better from their hind end ??


Magic! Apparently. Because I've never seen a running martingale do that on its own. Anyone that says otherwise, where do you buy your drugs from?? Because they must be good!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

mls said:


> Leverage.
> 
> Keeps their torso in line.
> 
> ...


In order to give leverage... there has to be a lever... a strap of leather is not a lever. But whatever I only have an engineering degree so what do I know about levers!!

The riders legs keep the torso in line... unless you have the RM attached waaaaay too tight it also ain't going to be engaged if the horse pops a shoulder. Without flailing his head up, anyways.

I could go to Google and find hundreds of pictures of horses with hollow backs in RMs. If not thousands. Again, it shouldn't be engaged if the horse drops his back, without flailing his head in the air.

Whoever told you this needs to have every qualification they have, revoked. A piece of leather, loosely attached to reins and not engaged unless the horse is seriously stargazing will not, in any hands, have any affect on the front to back balance of a horse, ever. It's basic geometry and dynamics, and biomechanics.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Sunny: Your trainer is using the running martingale as a substitute for horsemanship. She doesn't know what collection is (and apperantly neither do many of the people here) and she is mistaking a horse in a false frame as being collected. I wouldn't argue with her any more. Find another trainer and take your horse there. Research the next one better and make sure he/she knows what they are talking about and can prove it by the horses they are riding.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Ok I'll admit I haven't read all 7 pages, but here's my two cents:

I have a mare who's built downhill and loves to drop onto the forehand. Under saddle, she was having a difficult time learning to carry herself, so first things first we got her into some basic training to build up the muscles she needed in order to do that. Then she started throwing her head up and bracing, which meant hollowing her back and making life difficult for herself and her rider. 

So once that started, my trainer suggested side reins while lounging (NOT while riding, but while lounging her) every time before I rode her. She had me hook up the side reins through the girth in between my mare's front legs, going up to the bit, to encourage her to go long and low, lifting her back and forcing her to learn to carry herself and build up her topline without a rider on her back playing tug of war with her or unbalancing her. That REALLY helped her a TON!

I did try a running martingale on her once, but it didn't really do anything, her head is set kind of low anyway so it never goes up high enough for the running martingale to really take effect anyway. Lounging in the side reins is what really worked for my mare.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

mls said:


> Leverage.
> 
> Keeps their torso in line.
> 
> ...


People that have "feel" don't need a martingale. All a martingale does is pull the horses head down by the bars of its mouth. Depending on how high or low the martingale is set determines when it will "take a hold" of the horse but it always does the same thing. Ride your horses hindquarters under them and you will have much better framed horses than if you try to "rock them back". A horses back hollows when they brace thier head and neck. They brace thier head and neck when they feel a pull they don't understand or can't get relief from.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Whoever told you this needs to have every qualification they have, revoked.


Hmm. Years of riding and winning . . . 

Wow. Thanks for the warm fuzzies. :-(


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Time and trophies does not a horseman make!


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> *People that have "feel" don't need a martingale.*All a martingale does is pull the horses head down by the bars of its mouth. Depending on how high or low the martingale is set determines when it will "take a hold" of the horse but it always does the same thing. Ride your horses hindquarters under them and you will have much better framed horses than if you try to "rock them back". A horses back hollows when they brace thier head and neck. They brace thier head and neck when they feel a pull they don't understand or can't get relief from.


Amen to this, especially the bolded bit!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> Time and trophies does not a horseman make!


Amen to this too!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Well, I didn't hire her to get her ready for the show ring necessarily. I hired her to teach my baby w/t/c, which she did very well. I just wanted my horse started. 

Which is why I was surprised when she even mentioned collection, because all I asked for was a consistent, forward w/t/c.

Again, thanks to everyone!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Just in case, a flying martingale is a little bird that goes tweet tweet.


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## PoohLP (Jan 15, 2009)

Without seeing her use it, you can't really make an informed judgement call on what/why /how she is using the RM. Maybe what you need to do is go out one day and watch her do a training session on your horse. Then you will be able to better understand how she is using the RM and if you aren't happy with what/why she is using it, you'll have a better ability to express why you don't want her to do it anymore.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I'm of a similar mind as Kevin and Anebel. If a person knows how to use their body and reins effectively, then the need for a martingale on a green horse is a red flag to me.

The way I see things like the martingale is the same way my Dad sees them....and I can understand where he's coming from. Yes, they might be effective on _some_ horses with the _right_ rider, BUT, 99.9% of people using them have no idea how to use them right and even if they did, 99.9% of the time, they are using them on horses that won't benefit from them at all.

IMHO, 99.999% of the time, they are nothing more than a crutch that is used to cover up issues created by someone with bad hands.

This is not a dig against people who use them for their own safety on a horse with issues, like you Sky, because I am all for doing what you need to do to stay safe.

But a trainer who uses one on a typical, well behaved green horse just sends up huge red flags to me. It just tells me that they either don't have the feel to get a good frame without it or they are unwilling to take the time to get collection properly.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I agree with the above. I often use running martingales when jumping XC or larger fences. They are ALWAYS correctly adjusted and almost never comes into contact with the horse. They are strictly "what if" pieces of equipment much like having a breastplate when a saddle doesn't normally slip. or an overgirth on XC when I have never had a broken main girth. Just there "in case".


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

eliduc said:


> Ok. So the client is paying $500 a month or more. If the gadget shortens the training time and "reaches the same goal" shouldn't that make the client really happy? I personally don't think its ethical for a trainer to spend three months trying to work out a problem that could have been solved in two weeks with the use of a gadget just because the trainer is a purist. I am not a fan of gadgets but I am even less of a fan of being a close minded purist. There are circumstances where a gadget is a useful tool if used right. Being too rigid and close minded and not accepting that there is more than one way to reach the same goal is very limiting. One way of doing things does not always work with every horse. Every horse is different. It's necessary to be flexible some times.


It appears you did not understand my post. And honestly, I don't know where the business about ethics comes in....LOL. I'm not a "short cuts" person and that CERTAINLY does not mean I'm close minded. I would rather spend more money to have the job done right, then to have an RM used on a green horse, to supposedly get "collection" and engagement from the hind end.


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## eliduc (Apr 5, 2010)

*Don't be afraid to ask.*

A competent trainer wants their student to know why they are doing something and how it works. The answer, "For collection and to get the horse to use it's hind quarters" doesn't really explain anything. Your trainer should be telling you how the martingale is working to cause your horse to collect and how it makes your horse use it's hind quarters. If she does not share the mechanics of her training method with you how can you be expected to to competently ride your horse. If she can't explain how it works you probably need to find another trainer. Let's use the back as an example. The way I teach my horses to back (and there is probably more than one way) is to sit down on them a little and roll my pelvis into their loin muscles to push the horse forward at the same time I apply leg pressure. This causes the horse to attempt to lengthen and stretch its neck but I check it with the snaffle bit. Basically, the horse extends, contacts the bit, drops its nose to avoid the pressure and backs away from it. After the horse understands what I want all I have to do is barely roll my pelvis, a movement that is not even visible, lift my hands an inch or two and the horse will back. Now then, if I am training your horse and I don't tell you what I do to make it back when you get on it you will have no idea how to make your horse back and I have done nothing more than ride your horse for you. As long as I am on the subject, when the horse is backing its hind end comes under it, the horse flexes from the pole, its frame shortens. When I ask for collection I push the horse with legs and seat, the horse lengthens, it makes contact with the bit, it flexes from the pole, its hind quarters come underneath it, the frame shortens, the top line becomes more round and the forequarters elevate at which point I lengthen the reins until I have very light contact with the mouth. The method is almost identical as for backing and I don't need a a martingale. It goes back to the Californio method of training which originated in Spain. It should not be confused with today's reining horses that travel with their chins resting on their chest which I think is really ugly. I can't criticize the spectacular results the reining trainers are achieving though.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

I know that everyone is telling me to find a new trainer, but in two weeks the training is over and I don't plan on having another trainer anytime soon, aside from my lessons. 
Like I said, she was only hired to back my horse. I am definitely still going to talk to her though, hopefully tonight if she's at the barn.

So when the training is over I'll be back on my own and I'll be free to work with Sunny as I please. Though she is an on-site trainer and a boarder, so I'm sure there will be some pressuring me to use it afterward...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## eliduc (Apr 5, 2010)

Gotta Dun. I was speaking mostly in general terms and not trying to single you out. From my experience, to most people $500 a month is a lot of money. In fact, it can be a stressful amount of money to pay. Almost all of my clients wanted to see results. I am not opposed to using a gadget (depending on what the gadget is) to get over a bump. I don't think it is all that humane to the horse either to fuss with some problem for a lengthy period of time that could have been fixed in short order. I realize that there are a lot of dressage riders who believe in taking a decade to get their horse to first level and that's fine but I am not a dressage rider or trainer. What galls me is when they have the arrogance to tell everyone else that their way is the only way and that what we do is wrong. That is being close minded. I do not know what your discipline is and what I just wrote is not aimed at you so please do not take it personally. If I offended you before I apologize.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

eliduc said:


> Gotta Dun. I was speaking mostly in general terms and not trying to single you out. From my experience, to most people $500 a month is a lot of money. In fact, it can be a stressful amount of money to pay. Almost all of my clients wanted to see results. I am not opposed to using a gadget (depending on what the gadget is) to get over a bump. I don't think it is all that humane to the horse either to fuss with some problem for a lengthy period of time that could have been fixed in short order. I realize that there are a lot of dressage riders who believe in taking a decade to get their horse to first level and that's fine but I am not a dressage rider or trainer. What galls me is when they have the arrogance to tell everyone else that their way is the only way and that what we do is wrong. That is being close minded. I do not know what your discipline is and what I just wrote is not aimed at you so please do not take it personally. If I offended you before I apologize.


No offense taken. And I use gadgets as well....but in the case of the horse in the original post, I would not; at least not yet. See, many people want to see what I call "instant" results in 30 days with a very green horse. Well, that just isn't going to happen; it's time and miles that gets a horse finished. 

I show AQHA in Western Pleasure, Horsemanship and Showmanship, and used to do all-arounds (western and hunt seat). I've seen the results of short cuts with gadgets, with the end result being a very resentful horse.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

eliduc said:


> Gotta Dun. I was speaking mostly in general terms and not trying to single you out. From my experience, to most people $500 a month is a lot of money. In fact, it can be a stressful amount of money to pay. Almost all of my clients wanted to see results. I am not opposed to using a gadget (depending on what the gadget is) to get over a bump. I don't think it is all that humane to the horse either to fuss with some problem for a lengthy period of time that could have been fixed in short order. I realize that there are a lot of dressage riders who believe in taking a decade to get their horse to first level and that's fine but I am not a dressage rider or trainer. What galls me is when they have the arrogance to tell everyone else that their way is the only way and that what we do is wrong. That is being close minded. I do not know what your discipline is and what I just wrote is not aimed at you so please do not take it personally. If I offended you before I apologize.


That's not offensive to Dressage riders at all *rolleyes*. I expect a 4 year old to be able to do first level and want a horse at PSG by 9 at the latest! I, and most successful, competitive, Dressage people, expect a good pace of progression that is faster paced than most other riders.

The reason I don't like martingales is because a competent trainer can do the same thing, sometimes faster, without a martingale. A competent trainer doesn't need to "fuss with a problem for a lengthy period of time when it could have been fixed in short order" because they are competent enough to do it in short order without a gadget. If it needs to get done, and can be done, its likely already done. Competent trainers also realize that 99% of problems up front are fixed from behind, with the leg, the seat and the balance while the hands sit quietly in waiting for the horse to cone correctly into the contact.
The ONLY problem a martingale is going to help, is a horse that violently flips its face in the air. Any other horse does not need the martingale it is the rider that does to cover up the rider's lack of training and education.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

smrobs said:


> IMHO, 99.999% of the time, they are nothing more than a crutch that is used to cover up issues created by someone with bad hands.
> 
> This is not a dig against people who use them for their own safety on a horse with issues, like you Sky, because I am all for doing what you need to do to stay safe.
> 
> But a trainer who uses one on a typical, well behaved green horse just sends up huge red flags to me. It just tells me that they either don't have the feel to get a good frame without it or they are unwilling to take the time to get collection properly.


I completely agree (and thanks for not giving me crap about it <3)


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Sunny said:


> Well, I didn't hire her to get her ready for the show ring necessarily. I hired her to teach my baby w/t/c, which she did very well. I just wanted my horse started.
> 
> Which is why I was surprised when she even mentioned collection, because all I asked for was a consistent, forward w/t/c.
> 
> ...


Well then sounds to me like it's time to end the business relationship since the job has been completed.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Sunny said:


> I know that everyone is telling me to find a new trainer, but in two weeks the training is over and I don't plan on having another trainer anytime soon, aside from my lessons.
> Like I said, she was only hired to back my horse. I am definitely still going to talk to her though, hopefully tonight if she's at the barn.
> 
> So when the training is over I'll be back on my own and I'll be free to work with Sunny as I please. Though she is an on-site trainer and a boarder, so I'm sure there will be some pressuring me to use it afterward...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
I, for one, am most definitely NOT telling you to get another trainer. You seem to be happy with them. All trainers have different techniques garnered from the combined experiences with the many horses they have dealt with. They are also only as good as the coaching THEY have received over their lifetime.

All I am saying is feel free to question anything that doesn't quite sit right with you. Find out all you can about it, and make a decision as to whether or not you need to talk to your trainer about it. Your trainer should be able to FULLY explain every reason why they are doing what they are doing. Saying something like "just the way I've always seen it done" doesn't cut it at all. She just may not know why.........It is never too late for any trainer to question the whys and learn themselves.

I learn something just about every day and hope I always will. Be very wary of the trainer who "knows it all".


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