# Anybody else here watching CA's TB series?



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Is there anybody else here who is watching and enjoying Clinton Anderson re-training the OTTB, "Tricky Warrior"?
I know that I'm getting a lot out of it.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I think I saw the 3rd episode. I like it but personally I could not get a horse that winded.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

It's the cantering that wears them out. A horse can trot ALL DAY! (I know my Arab sure could.)


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Oh crap, he's doing that again? He started an OTTB named Chance (or something like that) last year and the poor thing came up lame on day 5. Didn't have anything to do with CA working the horse endlessly trotting on circles, running him around until he was dog tired, and changing direction every 3 seconds. (rolls eyes) I used to like him, but he seems hell bent on trying to prove that his method works on every horse. In that last TB's case, it didn't work well for him at all.


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

*Oh crap, he's doing that again?*

Perfectly stated, enough said.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I'd glad for the feedback--thx! BTW, I've been a horse owner/trainer for 26 years, and I've owned/bought/sold over 30 horses in that time--NOT a newbie. (I didn't keep any horses that were not suitable for the lesson program I used to run.) I've been watching CA for about a year now, and I pick and chose what I try on my OWN horses.
I like some of the things I'm seeing in this series. I'm absolutely DROOLING over his "horse amusement park" with the "clock cavaletti" (my term for it) and other cool training stuff that he's built--LOVE to have those things in my back yard!!
MY concern is about my 5 yo KMHSA who has had some nervous problems. I will NOT push and make him more nervous. I am working to keep him calm. If you have never owned one of these mountain horses, your don't know how they LOVE to set off like ambling race horses, and they'll travel for miles at 9 mph (yes, Virginia, my Garmon told me the speed), with a single cue.
DH and I are working with our 5 yo in my 55' square training area to get HIM to "walk the first mile out" and want to walk basically a lot more. If you'd care to elaborate about this series or CA, please continue, spirithorse8 and MyBoyPuck!


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

As with most of the name clinicians, _each has something good to offer_, the problem is that their egos have blocked common sense from being the teaching tool. They are into marketing, just look how much time of their programs are dedicated to selling themselves and their products.

As for CA and the rest of the RFD-tv clinicians, I do not like the way they physically and psychologically dominate the horse. They 'force' the horses into subjugation rather than actually teaching. When one teaches, one asks and then lets the student respond. A good teacher will ask and allow an answer, rather than demand and force an answer.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I know what you mean about the "hawking"!!! I can ONLY watch these programs by DVRing them and scanning.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

The thing that most got to me about when he was working with Pitch (remembered the OTTB's name) was that he took a horse fresh off the track and immediately started to re-fry his poor brains. While I'd never call myself a trainer, I do know that some breeds are more fragile than others in terms of personality. I haven't met a TB yet that responded well to an aggressive trainer. They need, calm, clear, and consistent leadership, but not someone flailing a lead rope at them, smacking their butt every 3 seconds and chasing them around a round pen. A quarter horse on the other hand would be like, "are you talking to me?", but TB & aggressive trainer = bad results. 

My other beef with OTTB's and this round pen stuff is, they've already has their legs strained far beyond what any other breed has at their age from racing. Wouldn't it make more sense to do training exercises that allow them to build up their leg strength gradually before all this frequent changes of direction stuff that CA does with horses in the round pen. I can't even watch it fearing the already fatigued horse will break a leg turning around.

I sincerely hope he's not doing the same stuff with this other TB, because I can almost guarantee you he comes up lame too within a few more training sessions.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

MyBoyPuck said:


> My other beef with OTTB's and this round pen stuff is, *they've already have their legs strained* far beyond what any other breed has at their age from racing. Wouldn't it make more sense to do training exercises that allow them to build up their leg strength gradually before all this frequent changes of direction stuff that CA does with horses in the round pen. I can't even watch it fearing the already fatigued horse will break a leg turning around.
> QUOTE]
> The constant shift of direction, like EVERY horse is cutting a cow, bothers me. I was a horsey kid (without my own horse) who took dance lessons and we ALWAYS warmed up slowly with lots of lots of stretching, and prepared our bodies for the hardest stuff gradually. I cannot help but believe that the horse should be prepared in the same way.
> 
> ...


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Corporal said:


> We've owned a few TB's and I Learned that they cannot: turn quickly, start quickly or stop quickly. One time we were trail-riding, DH on our TB, DD on our (racing bred) QH, and me on my Arab ("Corporal".) We had been walking over one mile on this straightaway and decided it might be fun to race back. My Arab got ahead to start (my QH just kept up--he Never had a heart for racing), and my TB gained ground and past us, and he kept speeding up by "changing gears." This gelding could NEVER stop quickly. I always had to ask at least 3 strides from a gallop to transition back to a trot, even though my Arab could fly from a stop and performed a respectible slide stop, when necessary.


Totally agree. My TB can run down any QH after a few changes of gear, but slamming to a stop isn't in his build. Sadly CA is a zillionaire from training horses and has not yet learned the most basic rule that all horses are not the same.


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

Well it is too bad that these P.T. Barnum clinicians are not being charged with horse abuse for some of the things they do. After all they are causing psychological and physical pain and discomfort to these horses.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I think it REALLY helps to discuss these things on a forum. I believe that if you are willing to spend lots of time with your horse(s) AND you know how to control a dog, that your horse will respond to your own particular style. In other words, you are not wrong, and the TV trainers are not right about EVERYthing.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

The horse in question had 6 months of feeding & turnout before CA started working with him.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I know--I've been DVRing the series, and I agree with THAT. I don't love or hate CA. I am cherry picking through his method and advice. RE: the leg issues discussed on this thread, it was something that bothered me and I hadn't put my finger on it until MyBoyPuck brought it up.
I believe that ALL horse training should be analyzed bc many people on this forum are very new to horses and are not sure about how to train them. They are counting on the rest of us to give them some help.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Okay, out of sheer chance, I did catch an episode last night of him working with that TB. He was riding the TB doing the cruising lesson. I was relieved to see that he does acknowledge a difference between hot bloods and the QH's he normally trains. When the TB broke gait at the canter, he took he time correcting him and never pushed him over the edge. Maybe he did learn something after the other TB Pitch went lame. 

He did still do far more than I would have liked to see in a single session, and cringed about the slinky neck that horse is going to have after all that side to side stuff he does with them that can only loosely be called "flexing". I think if that TB could talk, several times last night, he would have said, "Stop I get it already!!!"

But overall I was happier than I expected to be with what I saw.


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

Abuse of a horse is defined as doing anything to cause pain or discomfort to the horse............sorry but jerking on the bit and twisting the neck downward and rearward is abuse.
The flexing of the neck he and other clinicians are teaching is a fraudulent piece of information. YOU CANNOT flex the neck in the manner presented.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

spirithorse8 said:


> Abuse of a horse is defined as doing anything to cause pain or discomfort to the horse............sorry but jerking on the bit and twisting the neck downward and rearward is abuse.
> The flexing of the neck he and other clinicians are teaching is a fraudulent piece of information. YOU CANNOT flex the neck in the manner presented.


Little bit of a jump to say CA abuses horses, don't ya think? If horses didn't have to do anything that didn't initially involve discomfort or pain, nobody would be able to ride them. 

You have to be very careful when you point the finger and call something abuse. Someone more radical than yourself might look at your avatar and say that extra gear on your horse along with using a bit is abuse. We still live in a free country and definitions are relative when live creatures are involved. The TB in this video was definitely a bit peeved about being asked to do the same thing over and over again, but in pain?...no.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

You must admit that CA can pick a TB with a good attitude. "Tricky Warrior" keeps his head super-flexed after being asked, more often than not. It's as if the horse is saying, "This is what you want?" To segeway, I noticed the horse is a little cow-hocked. Does anybody think that would affect his jumping ability? I REALLY like the horse. "Tricky" is very balanced and strides under well. I'm sure CA will have this horse sold before the series is over. _Maybe that's the purpose?_


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Corporal said:


> You must admit that CA can pick a TB with a good attitude. "Tricky Warrior" keeps his head super-flexed after being asked, more often than not. It's as if the horse is saying, "This is what you want?" To segeway,


Totally agree. He's one smart TB, very easy to train. I'd snatch him up in a minute. He does almost have an attitude though when Clinton keeps asking him to repeat stuff. I kept expecting that horse to roll his eyes!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I don't call what he does 'abuse' at all. It causes no 'injury'. 'Discomfort' to a horse can be any contact you make with him. Any horse would prefer 'no contact' and that is exactly what he uses for a reward for the correct and wanted behavior. Looks like sound training techniques to me.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

On this week's show "Tricky Warrior" performed 3 flying lead changes on a slack rein while cantering a diagonal line from corner to corner in the arena. Definitely I see him as an Eventing Candidate, if his legs hold up for jumping. Like I said, I'm watching and analyzing. I still don't care for the constant flexing. It seems as if he's instilling obedience with it. Gotta chew over that one. 
I DO like that CA has waited to use 2 reins on this horse, since race horses DO learn to lean on the bit.


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

Pulling the neck side to side, does cause the horse discomfort.....LET ME DO IT TO YOU!!!!!!!


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

spirithorse8 said:


> Pulling the neck side to side, does cause the horse discomfort.....LET ME DO IT TO YOU!!!!!!!


Um... Speaking as one who has done a lot of CA-type work with my horses in the past, I've got to say that (unless things have changed radically - I haven't seen CA's glorified info-mercial in a while) the lateral flexion exercise isn't "pulling the neck side to side." When I did it, it was take slack out of rein, hold, drop rein when the horse puts slack back into it. No pulling involved. Simply contact, hold, release. No pain, no real discomfort, any more so than applying leg for a leg yield. 

Now, whether that exercise actually accomplishes anything constructive is another issue entirely. I've all but dropped it from my own personal routine. I did a little bit with Scout when I first got him, mainly to teach the ORS at the very beginning. If he hasn't been ridden in a while, I'll flex him once each way one time before we move off. Other than that, he doesn't flex CA style. His "flexion exercises" use his entire body. Isolating and manipulating the head alone just isn't going to biomechanically help the horse or prepare him for proper collection, as CA endlessly claims. 

True lateral flexion uses the entire length of the body, employed in circles, serpentines, etc. THERE is the "key to vertical flexion" - not that overbent, false give BTV stuff I see so in so many NH trained horses (not just CA, but he's definitely in on it).


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Well, I watched another episode. That horse is one smart cookie. Clinton was doing all that lateral flexion nonsense with him. Tricky beat him to it. Every time he was asked to come back to a halt, he would just turn his head right without being asked. He's definitely the type of horse you don't teach a dressage test to start to finish. At the end, he started teaching what he calls "vertical flexion". Ugh. I like the basic premise of letting the horse find the answer, but I found the question to be very loud. He took hold of both reins and held them until the horse gave to the pressure. Problem was he took a lot of rein. The horse had to pretty much touch his chin to his chest to get the release. I can see this quickly backfiring by Tricky sucking behind the contact. I'll be curious to see if Clinton can fix it an achieve real contact. My bet's on Tricky!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

He is a Western Trainer. He does not want a horse that hangs on the bit. He wants 'self carriage'. 

What English riders see is a horse that is 'behind the bit'.

What Western riders see is an English horse that 'falls apart' without contact, leans on the bit and cannot carry itself. I have seen many high level Dressage riders with white knuckles. 

I have ridden and shown both ways and have had quite a few horses that showed well both ways including a mare that I field hunted and qualified for the AQHA World Show in Reining and Hunter Hack -- all in the same year.

A lot of what the constant flexing accomplishes is that it puts a novice rider that has little skill in a place where they do not get hurt. Clinicians have found that few novice riders stick with any program long enough to become accomplished riders that can ride without a 'crutch' or a means to stay safe on a horse that they could not otherwise handle or ride. Teaching a horse to give instantly to one rein keeps the Dummies from getting killed.

He will come out of this demonstration with a method that Dummies can use to take a TB that would otherwise be WAAAAY over their heads and can stay safe on and may ride well enough to not get killed.

While PP keeps people on the ground for years to keep them safe, CA puts them on a horse they cannot ride and keeps them reasonably safe.

So, take it for what it is. Just like a REAL trainer or an accomplished rider does not need a round pen -- a real trainer and an accomplished rider do not need a One Rein Stop or endless lateral flexing to teach a horse everything it needs to know.

These are crutches that work for Dummies that buy horses that are way over their heads. It beats riding in a 60 foot round pen for a year and coming out of it with a mad horse that they still cannot ride.

I have conducted enough clinics that I know you have to teach the poor riders with spoiled horses that come much differently than you would teach an aspiring rider that wants to become competitive or wants to train professionally some day. 

I hope this sheds some light on a subject that many criticize because they do not look at it in the light of a Clinician that is trying to get people on horses and keep them safe -- people that do not have much skill on horses that are not really suitable. Been there -- done that -- have the tee shirt to prove it.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Thanks, Cherie. (DH knows that you are my new "BFF" from OK! ha, ha) I started this thread in order to analyze CA's method. It's interesting to ME bc I am training 2 geldings from very different backgrounds. I know to create a different lesson plan for each of them--that's the former teacher in me talking.
I agree that his method keeps the human in charge. What do you think about long-lining and in-hand groundwork? Besides the tv trainers I have been reading up about this, and experimenting. I have only fully broken in one horse in the past, the rest where broken and I retrained them--QUITE a different cup of tea! Plus, I was never _really_ happy with their backing, or their foot manners, and I have been addressing both with my young horses.


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## tlkng1 (Dec 14, 2011)

I took Anderson's methods and adopted them to the individual horse. In one, the hindquarters yield did wonders for my horse who refused to stand at the mounting block. It took 15 minutes and more than a few repeats of the exercies but when the horse finally decided he didn't like the working, he quit moving off from the block. Another mare I was asked to work with refused to enter the gate into the infdoor arena unless it was 100% fully open and would run into her stall...definitely a claustrophobia issue. I worked her with the basic lunge method, got her comfortable with CA's sending method and was able to, in just a few sessions, get her to walk calmly into and out of her stall and enter the indoor arena with no more issues with a less than fully open gate. One thing I never liked with CA's lunge method was the fast turn and full out gait out of the turn on the lunge. I always brought the horse down to a walk, allowed a more calm turn and then send off at a slow trot. In short, I adjusted the method to work with the individual and managed to cure a horse who would constantly crowd and turn in front..ie, when normally leading, the horse would constantly walk ahead and then cut me off. We solved this with a lot of stopping and walking forward and the occasional very long distance backing. That particular horse got so good at staying in the proper location when leading I could take off the lead and walk in patterns and he would never leave that location.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

tlkng1 said:


> I took Anderson's methods and adopted them to the individual horse. In one, the hindquarters yield did wonders for my horse who refused to stand at the mounting block. It took 15 minutes and more than a few repeats of the exercies but when the horse finally decided he didn't like the working, he quit moving off from the block. Another mare I was asked to work with refused to enter the gate into the infdoor arena unless it was 100% fully open and would run into her stall...definitely a claustrophobia issue. I worked her with the basic lunge method, got her comfortable with CA's sending method and was able to, in just a few sessions, get her to walk calmly into and out of her stall and enter the indoor arena with no more issues with a less than fully open gate. One thing I never liked with CA's lunge method was the fast turn and full out gait out of the turn on the lunge. I always brought the horse down to a walk, allowed a more calm turn and then send off at a slow trot.* In short, I adjusted the method to work with the individual* and managed to cure a horse who would constantly crowd and turn in front..ie, when normally leading, the horse would constantly walk ahead and then cut me off. We solved this with a lot of stopping and walking forward and the occasional very long distance backing. That particular horse got so good at staying in the proper location when leading I could take off the lead and walk in patterns and he would never leave that location.


That is what I think is so important in choosing to "follow" any trainer's methods -- be open to looking at what does and what DOESN'T work rather than blindly following things even when they are not working "because that's how he/she says it has to be done".


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## 7HL (Nov 27, 2008)

Haven't watched CA in awhile but caught a recent episode with the TB on RFDTV. His EGO, it always seems to get in the way for me. After seeing at Road to the Horse last year ( I was down close and his round pen was the closest to me) I said I wasn't going to go out of my way to see him again. Clinton wants his mark on everything. I noticed he even freeze branded the TB on RFD with his logo. He appears to have a very canned approach to ALL horses. I wonder what he does with the ones it doesn't work on. I specially questioned purpose except for the fact Clinton feels he can, on him continually annoying the horse by rubbing his head with his training stick. He basically remarked he was going to continue it overe and over as well as repeat often untill the horse didn't react. To me he's going for brain dead horses, totally obedient.


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## CowgurlUp91 (Jan 18, 2012)

I have, I missed several episodes though


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