# Breeding Gone Wrong



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I thought this MAY be a good topic in hopes of letting some people new to breeding realize the dangers and costs that present themselves. Yes, many horses foal just fine, unassisted, but many also don't. So what are your stories of breeding just gone wrong? Whether it be bad conformation, deformities, or emergency situations that resulted in enormous bills or even worse - injury/death.

I worked at a large scale Dressage facility for about a year (old friend of the family, unfortunately her and her husband split up, he claimed the establishment and turned it into a polo barn), that also doubled as a Warmblood (Hanoverian/Oldenburg) breeding facility.

It was just my first real up close and personal (ROFL, REALLY up close and personal since she had me helping her collect the stud and inseminating mares!) at a proper breeding establishment, and all the costs that go into it even with the most basic of care. And the horrific things that can go wrong - Elaine had a young daughter and she invited her friends for a sleepover in hopes to see a foal being born. Well, they got to see a foal being born all right - and killed. Somehow, the mares pelvis locked and the foal got stuck halfway out and the mare panicked. She started thrashing and jumping around and sitting, ultimately crushing the foal to death. Elaine immediately had to call the vet on her cell phone to rush out to sedate the mare so they could pull the mangled dead foal from her. Obviously, none of these kids ever want to be present for a birth again. And everything was done RIGHT. However, the end result of this story had an aware and responsible breeder not been present would have been a dead mare along with the foal.

Anyway, that's my breeding nazi-ism at work! I briefly considered breeding my Arab mare, mostly because I'm an Arab person and the Arab community around here SUCKS - nothing worth my while for sale. So along with that, I won't breed to the crap that's standing around here. The cost of getting her properly inseminated from an outside source and mare care is simply out of my budget, so I bit the bullet and bought a cute Paint filly that looks Half-Arab instead :lol:

I understand why some people would breed horses that would be questionable as breeding stock. I mean, realistically, that's still your preference. But even a badly conformed Grade mare bred to a cheap stud deserves medical attention to both prevent things from going wrong, and in case things DO go wrong.


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## lovemyponies (Jul 26, 2008)

good thread idea... I have no breeding bad stories to tell but we had a professional breeder at our barn for a while (she had the divorce thing going too and lost her barn) One thing I observed is that she spent a ton of time at the barn and knew how to deal with everything that could possibly happen. My point is that a novice breeder should have truly studied before breeding. The breeding test posted on here is a good start. I would also suggest if you are thinking about breeding read the posts on this thread, as many as you have time for. You will learn a lot including mares and babies having to be put down, etc. 

Also if you are going to post that you might want to breed your mare probably good idea to post as much information as possible. For instance conformation pictures of your mare, her bloodlines, etc. Also state your purpose for breeding, what are you trying to produce? Also for those experienced folks out there maybe an average cost associated with the entire process. Stud fee, ultrasound, supplements, complications, etc, so that novice breeders can truly decide if they can afford a pregnancy.


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## CheyAut (Nov 26, 2008)

Oh boy do I have stories. I breed Miniature horses.

My first foal due was the only foal that year. He was aborted full term, mare and an infection. Of course our dreams of a wonderful foal ruined, and had to deal with my poor mare's longing for her foal and her infection that required several vet visists for flushes. Pricey, and no foal. But other than the infection, my mare was fine and that was one of the lucky losses... if you can say a loss is lucky? It is compared to others...

Next year was much better. First foal born without a problem. But her normally sweet and loving mom (a maiden), decided she wanted us to have NOTHING to do wtih her filly. Her filly's eyelashes turned in towards her eye, creating an ulcer which required, of course, several vet visits and we had to medicate her eye every TWO HOURS around the clock... all this with a mare trying to kill us. NOT FUN. And pricey of course!

Two weeks later baby #2. Only one leg presenting!!! Had to get the mare up (she did NOT want to do that), hubby had to walk her to keep her standing while I located the missing front leg. Luckily it was easy to reposition, and the colt was born just fine.

Mare number three foaled the next night. No problems with her foaling (this was the mare who lost her foal the previous year), but it took the filly a bit to find the milk bar, luckily though her IgG was fine.

This year (er, last year FOR this year I mean) I bred my arab pony to a really nice Arab (halter/liberty winner, now finishing VERY well in endurance, a son of The Minstril), and boy was I excited for this foal. Mare didnt' take first go-round, so next month back at the stud's.... racking up the mare care and vet U/S fees of course. But that time she took. Unfortunately she aborted 6 months later. Foal's neck wasn't quite right (vet and I both agree on that), and the skin was decomposing, but vet not sure exactly what was wrong. I had LFG but I chose not to rebreed her after the heartache and costs that came with my next two foals due...

Next due was an experience mini mare. My first foal from her and my stallion, although they both had foals for previous owners. Both leopards, another highly anticipated foal (not just from me, but from other mini horse owners who were excited to see the offspring of these two nice horses). Then I get the call from a viewer that my mare is in labor (I have my horses on cam, online via marestare, so people help watch and call if something's up). I was actually on my way home, and hubby was there, so I got him to go keep an eye on her while I drove home. I thought it odd, must be a mistake... she wasnt' bagged up at all, no signs of foaling soon. When I got home, she sure DID seem to be in labor, so I called my vet, concerned. My vet thought she was probably colicking, but while on the phone, some of her "water" came out... I told vet I'd call her back. As I feared, since not much water (just trickles)... red bag! Broke it and immediately started trying to help get that foal OUT because the clock is ticking with red bags. Had two legs, but could NOT get the head repositioned. Called vet and she was on her way, but 45 mins away. The whole time waiting hubby was on the phone with a very experienced breeder friend (Norsire farm) trying to help me, but no use. Vet tried for a long time, then sedated her and continued trying, but still no go. We took her into the vet hospital (horsepital hehe) where three techs and three vets could NOT get that head into position. Anesthetised her, the whole works. Foal was long gone (I suspect he died causing the labor since she wasn't ready? BEAUTIFUL leopard colt) and we had to do a fetotomy. Mare's life was at risk, she speant days in the hospital, but thankfully her life was saved. Her breeding career was over due to damage to her cervix, but she is ok and enjoying being a spoiled pet at my friend's house now.

Baby number two was born about a month ago. His birth went fine, but he was a dummy foal (they just don't act right, and have a hard time nursing, caused by comprimised oxygen). He did not nurse for 24 hours. Had to have the vet come out and tube him wtih momma's milk. Then a couple hours later I tried bottle feeding him (since he still wasnt' nursing, even with our help), and although he seemed to be sucking on the bottle, nothing. So off to the vets to stay for 48 hours, tube fed, then bottle fed, then finally he nursed but had to stay there for treatments and to make sure he would be ok. His IgG was too low and he had to have a plasma transfusion.

So so far this year, just in these two minis, just in the birthing/after alone, not counting anything else (no stud feed, not counting pregnancy costs) I have speant $5000 and have my one foal (whom I adore). I could get a mini colt for a LOT less than that!

Breeding is NOT for the faint of heart, and you better have a way to pay for emergencies!


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## lovemyponies (Jul 26, 2008)

great post cheyaut! wow you have been through a lot, good information for those that just think they want to pay a stud fee and have a baby


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I never bred myself (and have no plans for that even though my horses lines are pretty good). But friends of mine breed for number of years. And one year (actually the year I first met them) was just horrible. 

First foaling mare died right there while foaling (foal died too). She was in foal several times before - never had an issue. And that was my friend hubby's favorite horse he got as a baby. 

Then next mare foaled dead foal.

Then next mare died from terrible colic leaving behind 1 week old filly. 

Just want to add that all those mares were in foal before, and they were all in good condition (nice, fat, and shiny). 

I didn't even ask about vet costs - I imagine they were very high. But I was even afraid to call them, because almost any time I gave a call, they already had a new loss. It was just very, very sad........


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

Anyone who says they want to breed to have a baby of their very own to raise and handle from birth has NO idea how much cost and work goes into it. IF you get past the risks, and have a healthy baby and mom, do you know how to halter break? What do you do when the baby tries to climb on/play with you? How do you discipline for kicking and biting and playing and teach a baby that humans are different than other horses? What happens if you just have ONE baby on the property? How do you handle that differently to ensure that they get the right help and stimulation? All things that most people don't realize or consider when it comes to "I want to breed my mare."

Great thread - thank you for sharing!

I recently bred my mare and she foaled this May 7th, and the baby is amazing, BUT he is a HANDFUL! I've had to work my butt off just to get him handleable and well mannered, and that's with a very nice mare!


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

Good topic.

I have been breeding and raising foals small scale (0 to 6 foals each season, with an average of around 3 per season) for 15 years, and have also managed breeding/foaling for others at large barns. When you breed horses you WILL experience tragedies and emergencies-- its not a matter of if, but when. 
Some of what I have experienced? 

**WARNING-- Long post, and graphic descriptions of injury and gore to follow-- read on at your own risk.**

***Dummy/anoxic foal-- Client mare shipped u rom Texas early in her last trimester, in preparation to be re-bred to the APHA champion/Superior Halter stallion standing at the farm. This mare was monitored and attended, myself and their trainer were right there to assist, labor and delivery proceeeded entirely normally, but the foal was born not breathing. Trainer was able to rescuscitate the foal, however he remained only semi-conscious-- could not stand on his own, never nursed-- he was moved into their barn office on a mattress with full veterinary attention-- IVs, tube feeding, etc--where we attended him around the clock. He rallied a bit at about 12 hours old but died shortly thereafter. This wasn't my foal, but I would estimate the vet bill alone (10 years ago) was around $1000 with the outcome being a dead foal (no fault of the vet of course.)

***Malpresentation/mare rupture-- I had turned out a pregnant mare for the morning-- she was about 325 days, no signs, small udder, folded teats--ran to a soccer game and came back to find her down in the paddock, streaming milk, trying to deliver a foal. There was only one foot showing, and she had a yard of ripped and dirty intenstines protruding from her anus, and there were a couple pools of blood and tissue in the vicinity where she had apparently been up and down. I sent my daughter to get my husband and the rifle, as any vet would be at least an hour out and this was obviously not fixable and was quickly becoming a more dire and painful situation by the second.

While I waited and comforted the mare, I felt for the foals other leg to see where the hang up was (I assumed it was dead.) I found that the other knee was flexed so the cannon was folded back-- I straightened it and pulled and out came a very ALIVE bay colt. While I kept the poor mare down (she was going back and forth between extreme colicy pain and nickering for her foal and wanting to get up to see him) and waited for my husband to load the rifle, I again sent my daughter-- this time to get an empty gallon jug out of the barn. I was able to milk out about 30 ounces of colostrum from the mare before she was quickly euthanized by bullet. 

I took the foal up to the barn and prepared a four oz bottle-- bottle fed him the colostrum every two hours for the first day/night, and the next day when the vet checked his IgG levels, amazingly they were in the normal range, so no plasma transfer needed. He had contracted tendons however, so he needded an IV tetracyclene treatment. I had another mare with a two week old foal, but the attempt to foster him was unsuccessful, so we corralled him next them so he could at least see other horses. Good foal milk replacer cost $90 for a large bag, and he went through three bags in his first two weeks of life. I taught him to drink from a bucket as soon as practical so I could have some relief from those every two hour feedings, and so he could have constant access to milk.

For his first two weeks of life this foal cost around $700 in vet bills and $300 in milk replacer, and this was an EASY orphan situation compared to many, since he had good immunity, no infection, took to the bottle/bucket, and etc.

There was no bill on the mare because it was obvious what needed to be done. however, had she ruptured and the "parts" remained inside as to not make obvious the extent of her injuries, we would have had a long painful and expensive vet experience with the mare and ended up with the same fatal outcome.

Foal was drinking close to five gallons of replacer a day when I gave him to an experienced horse/farm family who were looking for an eventual companion for their older gelding--they and their nine children were thrilled to have a second horse to raise and care for. They were doing a great job, but unfortunately when he got bigger and started failing to thrive, even with great feed and care, it was discovered that he had a heart defect and he was euthanized at six months old.

I will continue with a "part two" post--


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

(Part two--Again, WARNING of graphic content---)

***Patent Urachus--Older experienced mare foaled without complications and the foal was up, healthy and bright-- but he started looking dull on the second day, and his muzzle was covered with sticky milk-- a sign that a baby is attempting to nurse but not getting the job done so the milk is dripping/spraying on their nose rather than getting into their mouth like it should. The foal had an elevated temperature and seemed a little bloated, and I THOUGHT I had seen him urinate, but I was second guessing myself now-- 

I called my vet, and (my mistake) wondered aloud about a ruptured bladder. They said they didn't even want to see him if there was a chance he had a ruptured bladder-- they recommended he go straight to MSU (an hour trailer drive to a very good but very expensive Veterinary Teaching College, Michigan State University). Luckily (in comparison LOL) before I hung up I witnessed the foal urinating--- BUT.... he was uriating out of his navel. 

This is called Patent Urachus, and it means that a passageway that should be closed when the foal is born is open, or has re-opened. (when in utero the foal sends liquid waste back up the umbilical cord for the mom's body to take care of-- this ceases when the foal is born, the urachus closes, and new foal urinates out of the appropriate orifice.) The urachus can be slow to close, or it can be reopened by the presence of an infection in the umbilicus.

Patent Urachus needs immediate vet attention, but is nowhere near as serious as a ruptured bladder. Vet came out, we started him on 2X daily antibiotics-- I gave him pennecillin shots IM in the hip each morning, and the vet came out each evening to give him IV Zithromax. We also laid him down daily and the vet inserted a stick tipped with silver nitrate into the umbilicus to cauterize it--to speed up healing and closure. Each day the stick would go in less deep, meaning the passageway was closing. This vet had a couple days off over the weekend and sent out an associate vet-- when she inserted the silver nitrite stick I panicked as I noticed she pushed it up at least two inches further than we had been inserting it the previous two days! 

We let the foal up and sure enough he started showing signs of extreme pain and distress-- I thought she had skewered and killed my foal. She went to her truck and called the other vet-- I couldn't hear the conversation but I could see her face and it was not reassuring. She said that the other Dr. said that she had just broken through the previously cauterized healing/scar tissue-- not to panic, but treat him like a colic, as it would be painful like that. We treated him with painkiller, tranquilizer, and anti-inflammatory, and she said she would be back in a few hours to check on him-- I sat with his head on my lap for the entire time bawling, but he came out of it OK. Vet bill for the week old foal so far? $2000.

***Dystocia (means foal not positioned properly to be born)-- I had been up all night the previous night with a mare dripping milk, and I saw thefoal moving around A LOT, and mare acted restless but no foal, and she quieted down around dawn. This is not too uncommon, as the foal has to move into position, and it seemed normal at the time. I watched her closely all the next day. 

The next evening I witnesed her water break-- but no amnion bubble, no feet appearing after a few minutes. The mare was not distressed-- in fact she didn't seem to be having contractions. After 15 minutes I called the vet (45 minutes to an hour away) knowing that if there was a problem, it was likely we would lose the foal before the vet arrived. I scrubbed and went up into the mare shoulder-deep, and could feel NO foal anywhere. Vet arrived and also could feel no foal in the birth canal-- but thought he could feel the foal and uterus UNDER the mare's cervix. Loaded the mare up and off to MSU (see previous post about MSU).

Hour+ drive to MSU--The mare was still not having labor or contractions and was not even sweating. At this point, it was pretty clear we had lost the foal, but were figuring what to do to save the mare. C-section was a base price of $4000. If we thought the foal was alive, we would have opted for a C-section, but given the time that had passed, it was not realistic that there was a live foal. They could also attempt manual delivery under general anesthesia-- this would be considerably cheaper, (base price $2000) and cost unfortunately was a factor I had to consider. IF manual delivery failed, we could decide to go right to C section as she would already be anesthatized and prepped. 

So she was anesthatized, laid on her back with her hind legs suspended, and several vets and students went to work. After considerable time and effort using OB chains and cables and vets switching off as they got fatigued, and some discussion of a fetonomy (fola is sectioned by a surgical wire saw and taken out in pieces-- can be dangerous to the mare if the wire slips or the foal pieces have sharp bone protruding) we were presented with a huge dead filly that looked just like her dam. 

Filly had been laying on her back in the mare with her head and neck back and legs all folded in-- she had not turned so her head and forelegs could enter the birth canal, so they had to turn her and get all appropriate parts headed the right direction to get her delivered. Foal had probably died the night before when the mare was in labor but for whatever reason failed to positition and be delivered-- the labor at that time had caused placental detachment so she had no oxygen.

They then went back into the mare and to our extreme disappointment, found a huge tear in the mare's uterus. (at least football sized, they said). It could have been torn (or the tear could have started) by the strugglings of the foal trying to get born the night before, or it could have torn (or further torn) during manual delivery-- it was way to far forward to completely reach it vaginally-- from what they could reach, the tear was too large and had too many edges to even be able to find them all. 

They gave me a less than 25% chance of the mare surviving, even if operated on and left with them in intenstive care. This would be due to the massive contamination that was already underway due to the uternine contents spilled into her abdominal cavity, as well as the size and seriousness of the tear and their inability to even reach it without full open abdominal surgery, not to mention the chances of secondary infections, colic, and complications during the long post-op period. We opted to euthanize the mare without waking her up-- she had apparently not been in distress whe she arrived and it seemed the kindest and most realistic option. 

The vet college was both suprised and grateful that I asked if they wanted the mare and foal's body to use for further teaching and research-- I found out that they never ask for this, as they don't want to further upset a bereaved owner, and most owners opt for on site cremation or take home the remains to bury on the farm. I was grateful for their help and thought if the remains could help more upcoming vets help more people it was a fitting and dignified end for a great sweet mare and the filly who never had a chance to live. Vet bill for dead mare and dead foal-- $2500. Hauled the empty trailer home. 

I have more experiences from both my farm and the farm where I worked-- angular limb deformities requiring surgery, dead twins, aborted fetuses, mares rejecting their foals, foal born with a cleft palate, rhino exposure prior to the five month vaccination wiping out five pregnancies.... but rather than more gory details, I think I will go out and hug my home-bred, home-raised yearling and two year old to cheer myself back up.


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

Eastowest, your posts scared the hell out of me. I don't think I'm going to breed my mare anymore... or, at least not for a LONG time...


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Although these stories are sad (and I really do feel your pain and sympathise with you, I am sorry for the losses) it is a REALITY in breeding, one you have to be prepared to deal with. 
Good topic.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>>> Although these stories are sad (and I really do feel your pain and sympathise with you, I am sorry for the losses) it is a REALITY in breeding, one you have to be prepared to deal with. _

Thanks, and yes, these tragedies are part of the absolute reality of breeding horses. 

_>>>> Eastowest, your posts scared the hell out of me. I don't think I'm going to breed my mare anymore... or, at least not for a LONG time... _

Trust me, it is sobering just reminiscing about these events. But, while out hugging my "babies", (I really did step away from the 'puter to take a horsey recharge, LOL) I noticed one of our mares I had been waiting on finally showing heat, so she was teased, prepped and bred.... and I have another already vet-confirmed in-foal, and two others to be checked next week. 

Yep, I continue to selectively breed with full knowledge that each pregnancy and foaling could be a disaster-- and I know it is necessary to be prepared to the best of my ability to deal with whatever comes, both emotionally and financially. Of course, once a mare successfully carries and foals a healthy foal and it is raised through weaning, its still really only the beginning-- there are continuing health expenses, registration expenses, futurity and show nominations and costs, time spent socializing, training, etc...... 

For me it is worth it to continue-- to strive to choose breeding stock and make pairings that will better my breed-- registered Appaloosa foals with looks, movement, size, and color from proven bloodlines--- and I am in it for the "long haul"--- 

But for someone who wants to raise and/or train their own, it truly is cheaper and less risky, in almost all cases, to find a youngster already on the ground that already has all the "stuff" you are looking for, and buy it.


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

So this thread was such a good idea and I am learning so much. I have never bread any of my horses but have been close to two of breading- both ended with great stories:
1. I was about 13 and they bread the BO fav mare to this amazing stallion- everything went well and the baby was perfect. It was a little stressful because the baby was big but in the end all went well. I didn't do much with the baby other then admire him since I was so young 
2. My best friend bread her palomino mare (APHA/AQHA) to a APHA stallion and they had a great pregnancy- baby was born healthy (mare had 2 babies before and she was a good mom) and was great to her baby. The filly was handled daily and she was very respectful at the beg... she started to get an attitude and they didn't know what to do b/c she was just nasty- they got a pony and put the two of them together to keep each other company- little did they know the pony would teach the filly how to be a nice well mannered girl  She was the EASIEST horse to break ever and man did she like the word "whoa"- she had a nice cute trot, slow lope and willing to learn.
Like I said I haven't been around many but the two I have been closely related two were good experiences. I don't know if I will ever bread any of my horses (I sure can't afford it right now) but keep the stories coming- I am learning all kinds!


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Wow guys, you've completely out done my expectations! That is some hard luck, and I am deeply sympethetic to your losses. 

To be honest, a huge part of the reason I decided against breeding my mare was due to thoughts of birth complication. I know that more horses birth normally then abnormally, but she's my entire life, my pet and my friend. As much as I'd love a foal from her to love on when she's gone, I don't think I could live with myself if something went wrong and I lost her.

Good stories, thank you very kindly for the in depth explanations, I actually learned quite a bit, it's amazing how many things can go wrong :-( But I'm glad you have your blessed youngsters to remind you of how amazing it is when things go right!


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## CheyAut (Nov 26, 2008)

I always ask someone thinking of breeding their mare, are you prepared to put her life at risk? Because everytime you breed, that is what you are doing. You need to realize that and be ok with it. You SHOULD think it over. None of us want anything to happen to our mares, but it IS a risk we take.

Something else I forgot to say in my earlier post, I usually direct people to www.marestare.com and click on the calendar. Look at the previous months. This is all the births that happen on marestare alone. Realize, with marestare, the mares are online for the whole world to view. It is not just the owner hoping to catch their mare foaling. It is usually 24/7 watch on the mares, people all over, and they call the owner if the mare is foaling. These mares DO have assistance at foaling, have people able to help correct dystocias and call vets when needed. Not mares left out to foal on their own. Anyhow, everytime you see the rainbow with the angel, that is a mare and/or foal that died. Notice how many their are. That is a reality. Sad, but life. You can also go to the message board, foaling alerts and updates, and then go to the nursery section. All the posts that say "angel" in the title (well, most, as some mares are NAMED Angel lol), you can read about what happened. Have tissues ready!


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I'd like to pose another question to all you breeders out there:

Do you think the number of foal/mare casualties has risen in recent years? Much like the instances of colic/injury? Giving birth is a pretty natural thing, and I know in decades of breeding Arabs my great-grandpa, grandpa and great uncles never spoke of issues. Do you think the more we do things "unnaturally" the more we're putting mares at risk? Just in the sense of being kept in stalls and eating a human created diet for example.

And I really want honest opinions here, this isn't meant to attack any breeders, I realize that in this day and age it simply isn't possible to let horses just "roam the open range" anymore, the urban sprawl is quickly devouring what was left of that and we're forced to start raising in horses in more unnatural circumstances, and I know most people do everything they can to make their horses as healthy as possible. I'm just curious if any older breeders have noticed a change?

I just think it's another big prepotent to people NEEDING to know what they're doing. A lot of people use the arguement much like they do with a farrier - well, wild horses don't need a farrier, so why should I trim? Well, wild horses birth, so why should I worry?

So has anyone noticed an increase in risk as we progress further into life?


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## upsidedown (Jul 10, 2008)

Last year my trainer had a healthy mini colt, born healthy all that jazz. I loved that little guy, he was my favorite of all the ones she had bred. Just before weaning time he got an infection. I don't know all the details, but I know that the infection is rare, and only like 2% that get it die. He died. 

Same year a filly was born healthy and shortly after acquired an ulcer in her eye. It was fixed but she went blind in that eye, and almost had to have it removed.

Not sure on the vet costs on the two of them, but I know it wasn't cheap.

Babies can come out with no problems but you are not in the clear by any means.


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

I have never personally bred a horse, but I do know of two unfortunate losses. 

Palomino MFT Mare, in foal to Blk/Wht MFT Stud. Same sire as my two MFT's.
Aborted (not sure exactly when) later in pregnancy. Foal was a beautiful Palomino filly with a blaze and four socks. Mare is an experienced mother, very healthy, with all the proper vet care. 
When bred to Dusty (the stud mentioned above) she always produced Palomino's. They have another one of her fillies, she's about three now, broke to ride, and they intend on showing her. She's a bit of a snotty girl, but boy does she have the longest mane I've ever seen on a Foxtrotter O_O'

Mahogany Bay TWH mare bred to a TWH stud, some sort of Homozygous testing. 
Produced a healthy Tobiano tri-color colt, very well bred with an incredible gait. Future show and possibly even stud prospect. Ate the tail of his dam and another mare, colicked and didn't survive. 
The stud was sold to someone overseas so they couldn't breed back again. I knew the colt personally, he was really a ham. Loved to show off, yet still be with the people.


Breeding can be both an adventure and a tragedy.


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## Padrona (Apr 13, 2009)

I understand the point of this thread but I'm not sure how effective, or morally sound the principle is. :-(

Very true there's way too many unusable and unwanted horses in the world. But GOOD horses come from GOOD breeding programs. And ocassionally GOOD horses even come from BAD breeding programs.

Terrifying people with the horror stories of all the "births gone wrong" is beyond my comprehension. Why are you doing this? We've bred and raised a lot of high quality youngsters over the years - ALL but 2 we kept and raised ourselves and still own to this day. We only had one incident, where a leg was back and the vet had to straighten the leg out. It turned out fine.

I think the more appropriate approach might be in educating people what good breeding stock is, how to secure such horses, and how to carefully and thoughtfully select breedings that will produce highly valued and usable babies. 

I could talk all day about horror stories of car accidents, murders, natural deaths, and so forth, but why? Why not rather educate people on safe driving habits, personal safety and health, etc.?

You cannot be obsessed with the negative and think it will prove your point or justify your cause. I think you have to look at things objectively and approach the issue from an education standpoint, and not one of fear and horror. :shock:

And yes it is VERY expensive to raise a baby from birth, but it's also VERY expensive to buy a horse and provide for its continued care as well. All in all, we've come out about the same - breeding a mare and raising a baby - versus buying a well started greenie with good bloodlines. You can pay $10,000 for such a horse, or you can pay 10,000 to raise or own. Or a lot less. 

My current riding horse is one I raised from a weanling (bought her at weaning.) And yeah, it's been expensive, but no more so than buying a 6 year old that is already competing. To buy that mare now would be an EASY $10,000. By raising her, I've done all her training myself, I have an extremely tight bond with her, and she's had no bad experiences or train wrecks that I have to overcome.

Just my thoughts.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

The methods you've pointed out have been used til the cows come home. All we're doing is giving people more to think about. Your point is valid, but so is this topic, IMO. It can just as readily be used towards general horse ownership as well. Too many people think a horse is just a big dog and can take care of itself. I find this helpful in giving not only novices, but even experienced breeders some ideas of what they CAN expect. It can help educate them if their horses are showing some signs of what's been written.

Nobody is trying to be negative about breeding, we're being realistic.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> *The methods you've pointed out have been used til the cows come home.* All we're doing is giving people more to think about. Your point is valid, but so is this topic, IMO. It can just as readily be used towards general horse ownership as well. Too many people think a horse is just a big dog and can take care of itself. I find this helpful in giving not only novices, but even experienced breeders some ideas of what they CAN expect. It can help educate them if their horses are showing some signs of what's been written.
> 
> *Nobody is trying to be negative about breeding, we're being realistic.*


Agreed.
Sticking your head in the sand (not said to anyone in particular) and saying "oh, it won't/cant happen to me" is foolish. I think this topic is a really good reminder that things can and do go wrong, and there are risks to breeding any mare.


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## PalominoStarsky (Dec 18, 2008)

I agree with Macabre, too many people are in love of the idea of having a foal and everything will be great and the mom and baby will be happy and healthy and it will be one huge fairytale ending, etc, but these posts make people realize that not every birth is wonderful and awful things can and do happen every day.


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## PalominoStarsky (Dec 18, 2008)

And JustDressageIt beat me to it! Haha. Well said.


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## Padrona (Apr 13, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> Agreed.
> Sticking your head in the sand (not said to anyone in particular) and saying "oh, it won't/cant happen to me" is foolish. I think this topic is a really good reminder that things can and do go wrong, and there are risks to breeding any mare.


Yes there are risks. There are risks to buying a horse as well. At a seminar recently, a woman told me a horror story of a horse she bought and it turned out the horse has EPM. It progressed into a court case, and major vet bills and hospital stay. Anything can happen when you own a horse - whether you bought it or raised it. Horses die miserable deaths every day from trailering accidents, pasture accidents, or disease.

My opinion is that if you want to discourage people from breeding, then possibly a more effective viewpoint would be education on sound breeding practices, and not horror stories of what could go wrong.

I feel that good solid breeding practices where the best individuals from highly valued lines are propogated and sold at respectable prices is one way to discourage all the willy nilly backyard breeding and unwanted horses. 

It's the 200 dollar stud fee stallions that breed 70 mares a year and babies end up at auction going for 350 dollars that have caused this epidemic.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>> My opinion is that if you want to discourage people from breeding, then possibly a more effective viewpoint would be education on sound breeding practices, and not horror stories of what could go wrong._

I think it depends on the person contemplating breeding a mare or mares.

People choose to breed horses for many different reasons. Education on sound breeding practices IMO might not do anything to discourage a person determined to become a breeder, but might inspire them to do a better job and breed more effectively with better stock and still breed as many or more as they originally intended. Talking about tragedies might not dscourage them either, but hopefully discussion of risks would help them avoid anything that is avoidable/preventable, or at least be prepared to do all they can should something occur.

On the other hand, folks who are not really wanting to be "breeders", but who have a couple of mares that are thinking of breeding them for fun, curiosity, etc-- especially those with "pet" mares-- might not be greatly affected by discussion of sound breeding practices-- they might have already observed their friends' and neighbors' breeding outcomes, and feel that the stallion owner and nature will probably take care of most of the proccess, and since they intend to keep the foals, selection of a convenient appealing stallion is more important to them than long term marketabilty or perceived breed improvement. However, they might be discouraged from breeding those mares they adore if they realize the risks after hearing graphic accounts of possible complications.

And, unfortunately, some people will not be swayed by anything but will go on as they please with or without education or information.

However, all of that said-- I think blunt discussion of complications and risks IS part of proper education on breeding practices.

On forums and websites, at horse shows and barns, we see/hear many accounts of breeding and foaling that go off without a hitch and see lots of adorable foals and foal photos. We occasionally hear of complications and things gone wrong, but you can bet that there are many people would wouldn't dream of laying out their tragedies and disasters to the local horse public, let alone on the internet for all to see. 

Because of this, IMO to most people, breeding and foaling looks safer and prettier and more attractive and appealing to the average observer than it really is. 

So to me, discussing some of the ugly realities helps balance things out, and provide some reference to those who are willing to become educated and put thought into their choices about breeding horses.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I think you missed the entire point of this post. It's not to discourage people, it's to alert people to these very real possibilities. If someone is breeding a backyard mare who lives in grass and doesn't cost more then $20 a month to the nearest cheapest stallion, I can guarantee they're not even considering potential vet bills. And obviously, this could happen just OWNING a horse, but in my opinion, you increase the risk 10x when you're trying to brood a mare with absolutely no veterinarian care whatsoever. And if you can't even afford a $500 stud fee, then what business do you have trying to create more horses? That $500 should be saved for when your mare DOES have a severe injury and needs medical attention, not squandered on cheap breeding problems and then you're left penniless when both mare AND foal encounter potentially fatal problems. I'm not saying we all need several thousand in the bank account, but I DO believe every owner should have at least enough money for basic medical attention or euthansia costs. If you're able to shoot your horse, and are willing to do so, then by all means, spend your money on a breeding. But if you're not, it's just cruel and unbelieveably irresponsible to allow a horse to suffer in pain because a baby was more important then thinking about what would happen if you couldn't afford to put her down.

This education is no different then your opinion, and it's things people NEED to know but never hear about. It's the horses suffering when these stories don't get told, when people aren't educated about what COULD happen. And yes, they can just as easily be applied to everyday life and horse ownership as I've already stated.


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## xkatex (Oct 7, 2007)

This past March, my mare passed away after severe foaling complications. I had own this mare for 14 years, I grew up with her. She had a solid racing career(standardbred), never had any soundness issues, clean legged, good breeding lines and was near the end of her career. We decided to breed her and she had two beautiful foals with no complications what so ever.

To this day we do not know what happened. The best the vet could think of was A) Ruptured Artery, which was later dismissed as he said "She should've been dead by the time I got here if that was the case." B) Head trauma, possibly hitting her head during foaling or C) Internal Bleeding from a possible tear.

Regardless of what the reasons were it was a big loss. Even the other horses in the barn noticed her absence. They were lost when they were turned out, waiting for her at the gate. Also, as cheesy as it may sound, 3 of them stopped by her stall the next day and just stared. Whether it means anything or not it was gut wrenching to think they knew she was gone as well. 

Needless to say, her pregnancy was immaculate. No problems period. Its just one of those unpredicable incidence.


As for the post about the rise of fatalities during foaling, I have seen a big rise this season. The people who own the nurse mare for this foal own a prestigious belgium facility. They show cross country, import stallions, stand studs etc. This year they had 3 foals pass away due to foaling complications and had 2 mares pass as well.

We discussed this the one day and it was mentioned that a family friend, who breeds percherons lost 5 mares this season and 2 foals. 

Both places have the vet out practically every week for check ups and have never had this bad of a season for breeding.

Who knows what causes it. But regardless of whether its that $100,000 dollar race horse or that $100 backyard pony its still not a very nice reality to face. 

I think if anyone is considering breeding their horse, regardless of their value, they need to be well aware of the realities that complications could occuring during the pregnancy and foaling and the chance of a possible loss. Its kind of like you can tell a smoker to quit smoking because they'll get lung cancer, but untill a close relation or they themselves get it, they hold the mentality that "it won't happen to me." 

Sorry for the rant. I dont think it makes much sense, but I tried.:lol:


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Padrona, while I respect your opinions, I do believe you're missing the point of this thread.
I do not think that the OP started this thread to scare people out of breeding, but rather to educate people on the very real risks you take each and every time you breed a mare. 
Everyone thinks "it would never happen to me" or "those things always happen to someone else" - well, we are all "someone else" to everyone else.
I think this post is very smart. It shows that even in our vast online community, there are many disasters that happen each year. 

All in all, you can tell people over and over "breed smart" and "there are risks" but a lot of people brush it off with a "it's just one foal" and "those horror stories will never happen to me" when in reality your one foal is one of many "it's just one more foal" foals and your mare is at just as much risk as any other to have complications.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Thanks JustDressageIt, you're much better with words then I am. As much as I disagree with a lot of backyard breeding, if it's your horse and your foal, it's still your choice. I was just trying to raise awareness for those who think babies are just all cute and fun. I don't think it's fair a horse suffers because we think they're tough animals who can handle everything themselves. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from breeding, just saying to take a step back and consider these very real possibilites and make sure you're equipped and prepared to handle them before moving forth on such an endeavor.


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## close2prfct (Mar 9, 2009)

while not nearly as dramatic as some of the stories posted on this thread I'm gonna add mine. 
Today Misty foaled a beautiful baby boy by all appearances he looks like a healthy foal...till he stands up. He is severely extended from the ankle to the hoof on both front legs and moderately extended on his back legs. The vet said it is a common occurrence but usually the tendons aren't flexed and in his case they are flexed all the way out. He said although it can be corrected it will take keeping him in splints for up to 2-3 weeks with breaks every few days to let his tendons and muscles work, now with all this comes the problem that all though he can stand and walk it's as if he is still a newborn trying to stand for the first time he is incredibly wobbly and has trouble standing for over a couple minutes so that means nursing can be a major issue. So milking mom and bottle feeding him may be what I have to do. While the only expense I have thus far is the farm visit from the vet the time spent to get the lil guy up and running is going to be a lot. Do I mind? not at all but this is just one of the many things that can go wrong without being expensive to fix but time consuming and in the end it's either a normal happy healthy foal running & kicking through the pasture or the possibility of him dying or having to be euthanized.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Awwww, I'm so sorry to hear that close2prfct. I really hope everything works out ok, it's such a bummer when you're unsure of the outcome. At least he has a good loving owner willing to do whatever it takes to help him along!


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## lovemyponies (Jul 26, 2008)

I think this is a great thread, and the best part no one has to read it, the title alone could scare off someone who would rather not read it or you can stop reading as you go. I do think that many of the posters who come on and post something along the lines of "I am thinking of breeding my mare, I don't want to spend a lot so I found this great stud for $300 and I really want the foal to look this and be this color...."

Yes you have to start some where but why start now when the horse market is flooded with horses that no one wants or can afford already?


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## xkatex (Oct 7, 2007)

As I have been told over and over by many different people in the horse world, *Its easier to buy a horse than it is to raise one*.


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## cayuseranch (Jun 13, 2009)

*Thanks for thread*

As some of you know from my thread, I have recently found out one of my mares is pregnant, late stage, so it is a little late for me to start preparing myself. This is the first pregnancy we have had and I am worried. But this thread has been a great tool for me. It has given me things to keep an eye out for when she has her foal, things that will raise red flags and for that I am thankful. Sure it is scary stuff to read, but anyone who owns horses should think about any complications. We have adopted 4 horses that others "haven't wanted" so you are right there are a lot of horses out there that are unwanted, everyone should know the risks they take with the horses they love. I think the thread is educational and I just wanted to share that. So thanks!


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## freedomfighter93 (Apr 15, 2009)

I think that this thread is a great one, and I applaud the creator of it. People need to know exactly what kind of dangers you can get into when you start breeding. I know that it's made me think double about ever breeding in the future, and I'm glad it did. I'd rather know the risks instead of learning the heartbreak the hard way.


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## peace love and paints (Nov 10, 2008)

i have a few sad stories of my own. i have only been breeding for two years and purchased a preggo mare. here goes.
first year foaling i saw what i thought was a contraction at 6 am me and dad watched for a while and saw nothing more so i went to school only to be signed out at 9am the mare was up and down pushing hard and we were pulling but nothing more was coming out so vet came out around 11 am and continued pulling the whole horse around 10 feet in the pastue before the rest of the body came out and of course he was dead a beautiful buckskin. good luck trying to get a vet out when you call them not sure how much this cost

that same breeding year i had my stallion in a round pen with electric wire but we had a colt born that year when he was turning two we went on vacation and came back to see the stallion loose and a missing colt after about 3 diffrent vet visits he was euthanized bc he had a broke bone in his shoulder. he lived for a month hopping around with that broke bone and it took 3 diffrent vets to determine it.cost near ($800)

the next year mare foaled in the evening we had trouble pulling the colt out he nursed well so i called it a night when i looked at him the next morning his head was gigantic one of his hind legs was way longer than the other and he walked side ways and you could see the pain in his eyes. he died that same day. mare was running wildy and was destressed.

this year i had a three year old horse i bought her preggo. she foaled and quit pushing when baby was half way out so dad pulled him out the rest of the way he sucked fine that day mom was very loving but the colt seemed weak couldent walk well. next day mare decided she didnt want him anymore so i bottle fed him. milked the mare fed him every two hours 24/7 vet came gave him ivs never mentioned he needed a plasma transfer($400). he started kicking couldnt get up neck stiff stopped drinking infection took over and dad ended up shooting him. 

because of the things ive seen i am not going to be breeding horses anytime soon i would much rather adopt one.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Bump for Angelsgrace and InspiredByHorses


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

Wow these are some scarry things. My aunt raises rein/cow horses (very good bloodlines and the mares have been shown and won and she only breds to stallions who have shown and won alot.) She has always had pretty good luck with her babies, except for this year, out of four mares she got two babies.

- one baby was born just fine, but his intestines and other things, were born outside of his body (he was born dead)

- baby number two was a son of Big Chex to Cash, and looked just like him. He was born wiht constricted tendons. They tried the cast like things on his legs (you know like a cast on a persons arm i canot think of the word right know) but unfortunantly it did not help and he had to be put down after 2 weeks. 

- and one of her yearlings (gorgeous girl) died this year to. She was found in her pen dead, they think she must of coliced during the night.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

ok i read most of this. i have a few things to say, but one HUGE conern.

as pleace love and paints posted. theyre PULLING the foals out. why? why are people do this? why are you not leaving that mare to have the foal by herself? pulling foals out of mares is only doing more harm than good! i can understand if there is a problem, but holy cow. everyone wants to run in and try to yank the foals out! ive seen this on youtube as well. it angers me. its not needed....

anyway, as far as educating people. there are tons of ways to do it, this thread is one of them. you can candy coat things all you want, explain the horrors til your blue in the face, tell them about whats good and not good to breed, BUT in the end the outcome is still the same for the ignorant. there will always be the ignorant who will continue to breed blindly. so all these tactics are GREAT for the ones who DO listen. but you know.. there are still many out there who just dont get it....


alright as far as breeding, my mare has foal twice so far. shes had 2 wonderful fillies. she has had wonderful births and so "easy" for her. no complications ever. she is in foal right now and due April 1st. we are praying it will be like the others, as this is the last she will be bred.... we have been blessed so far, and i feel for everyone who has lost a foal, mare, or both. its unfortunate that not everything can be controlled, but it is reality.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

I once witnessed a foal put his hoof through everything and out the mare's anus! The baby wouldn't turn and was delivered dead. The mare had to be put down later because of a serious infection.

A good book to read before breeding is True Horse Stories by Theresa Jones and Steve Miller (he was my vet). I'm not sure how popular it is though....I had a hard time finding a copy. The book is awesome and goes into detail things that can happen during birth.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Also read _Blessed Are The Broodmares _if you're even thinking of breeding.

All of these stories as well as some not mentioned here are presented as possible outcomes when you breed your mare.


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

I have a friend who had a family friend who was into horses, not sure how much breeding the person actually did, but she had an Arab mare that she decided she wanted to breed, so she decided on a different unrelated stallion from the same farm she got the mare from, and everything was done with shipped semen. The mare was fine all during pregnancy from what I know, and the baby was born fine, but after a couple of days they started noticing that the baby was having balance issues, and that it was more noticable the faster the baby tried to go. Well they did some tests (not sure of the timeline though), and found out that they had gotten the wrong semen. The farm somehow messed up the straws, and the mare was bred back to her sire. The baby has wobblers syndrom, and will always have issues with balance, and as such is only safe as a pasture pet. The farm offered the owner a rebreeding to the correct stallion as it was their mistake, but I believe that the owner declined. I can't remember the names of the horses, but it was a pretty well known and well run farm, and even so, things went wrong. I agree that people should get all the stories, not just the good ones of happy healthy babies and mares, but also the things that can go wrong even if its uncommon. I want to breed my mare, and I want a sport horse baby, but at this point, it will be at least a few years, and I am already doing even more indepth reading past what I had done when I wanted to breed my Thoroughbred. I know that it is not something to take lightly, and as breeding is something I do want to do, whether on my own, or managing someone's place, I want to know all I possibly can, good and bad, beyond just bloodlines, and good stallions and mares ect.


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

I have had two different ones within the past two years. They are part of breeding, but they were sad. There are pictures of both foals at the end. 

1) This foal was born, and he was entirely healthy. He managed to get his head stuck under a gate, and ended up with scar tissue. Our vet told us that he may or may not recover, so he moved to our backyard to be watched and cared for more carefully. He ended up having to be put down because there was scar tissue in his throat that caused him to be unable to swallow correctly.

2) We had a very sweet mare, Tinkerbell. She has always produced wonderful babies for us and was pregnant with her last one. She is one of our SSH mares. She laid down to have her foal, and everything seemed to go well. She never got up. She didn't bleed out, but she died right there. She left us a beautiful chocolate and white stud colt, and he has been healthy. We were very lucky to get this little guy, but we were very sad to lose such a wonderful mare. He is the second picture.


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## Cheshire (Oct 17, 2009)

Some real horror stories here...and unfortunately all too true. I also agree about interfering as little as possible with the birth.

I only have one story...not so much a "birth gone wrong" but more of a...eh..."breeding gone wrong". I've mentioned this before, but it just gets me so mad. I used to work for this lady who bred appies. She would breed father to daughter and stuff like that CONSTANTLY to get what she wanted. Now I know there is a certain amount of inbreeding in the industry but that still doesn't make it sit right with me. Near the end of my "career" cleaning stalls and excersising horses with this idiot, there was this newborn foal...

Beautiful little thing. But the skin on its legs was sloughing off down to the muscle tissue (and further), among other problems. I want to say "flesh-eating bacteria" due to a weakened immune system because of the buttload of inbreeding on both sides of the family (she had (in)bred the stud herself), but I can't exactly remember. All I know is that it had to be put down, and it wasn't the first. But it was certainly the last straw for me.

The thing that really made me upset was that she continued right on breeding like this despite the horrible death she had already put that little guy through.

So...sort of relevent. Sometimes all the precautions in the world won't be able to save a mare and/or her foal if just the tiniest thing beyond your control goes wrong.


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## equus717 (Aug 20, 2009)

To Almagron I had to pull one foal this year. Dee my 16 year old got tired. She needed help I only pulled when she had a contraction. She had gotten Maggie all the way out to her midsection. I only helped pull twice. 
Cinnamon my friends mare that Caddo came out of she laid down to have Caddo in the corner. I had to go into the stall and get her up and move her to the middle of the stall to deliver. I waited outside of the stall with Dee and Cinnamon until they ran into some trouble. I will also watch PT when she foals. I have a 14 by 14 foaling stalls so plenty of room to deliver babies. If I had not been there for both foalings I know that I would of lost Caddo for sure. I might of lost Dee as well and Maggie would of been an orphan. 
I do agree that most people rush in when there is no need to but I try to let nature take its course.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

One year we boarded a mare for a friend of ours; it was winter and the mare wasn't actually due till later that spring, but she kept showing signs of going into labor, and we had a better suited barn for her in the cold weather. 

Well, for 4 months she kept going 'in and out' of labor; the vet told the owner that it was probably because the mare was a first timer. The owner didn't investigate any further, because otherwise, the mare seemed fine; eating, moving around, not in any pain. 

Finally in April, the mare did foal; no complications, which was good, because while my mom and the owner had checked on her early in the morning, and she showed no signs of labor, by the time I went out to check on her a few hours later, she had foaled, and baby was dry. I turned her out after playing with the new baby for a few moments, and set to work cleaning up her stall. 

I found the after birth (in tact), AND a dead mummified colt, identical to his full term brother (who I later bought). That foal had died a few months earlier, which was the cause of the mare going in and out of labor. It was extremely fortunate that the mare didn't develop an infection, which could have cost hers and her other foal's life. 

Another year, that same mare had a colt, and didn't seem interested in him, she would try to push him away, and ripped out his entire umbilical cord, causing him to urinate through his naval area. 

The owner finally called us and asked if we wanted to take care of him. When we got him, we started him on antibiotics, and got his naval taken care of. However, he had started developing swelling in his joints; his owner told us that the mare had stepped on him...we thought it was probably joint ill, and told her he needed more powerful antibiotics than we had along with fluids. She stood by her stupid excuse that he had been stepped on and should be fine. That cold rallied as much as he could, and we had a goat who would even allow him to nurse on her while she was on the milking stand. However, those who are familiar with joint ill, know that without proper antibiotics, a foal is usually not going to last long. He kept getting worse, and the owner finally brought him to the vet, who told her that IF he survived, it would take a good couple thousand dollars. She put him down. I don't think I've ever really forgiven her for being so adamantly stubborn; he may not have survived either way, but if she'd have listened to us in the first place, he would have had a better chance. She wasn't willing to sell him to us either (we did offer) so we could get him the proper care, and told us specifically not to take him in. I wish we would have done it anyway, but I was young then, so didn't really have much of a choice but take care of him as best I could.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Cheshire said:


> Some real horror stories here...and unfortunately all too true. I also agree about interfering as little as possible with the birth.
> 
> I only have one story...not so much a "birth gone wrong" but more of a...eh..."breeding gone wrong". I've mentioned this before, but it just gets me so mad. I used to work for this lady who bred appies. She would breed father to daughter and stuff like that CONSTANTLY to get what she wanted. Now I know there is a certain amount of inbreeding in the industry but that still doesn't make it sit right with me. Near the end of my "career" cleaning stalls and excersising horses with this idiot, there was this newborn foal...
> 
> ...


What you just described is referred to as HERDA (Hereditary Equine Regional Derma Asthenia). Essentially, they're missing the proteins that form the layer that attaches skin to muscle tissue. Any sort of slight trauma such as being dumped or having a saddle placed on them causes the skin to disconnect from the tissues. It's a horrific disease and 110% preventable (like HYPP). Things like this make me SO angry because it's only born out of irresponsible breeding practices. I doubt I'd ever breed my little Paint mare, but if I did, you can bet your buns she'd be tested for HYPP and HERDA, as well as determing her Overo status to prevent any LWO foals. If you can't be prepared to pitch out for these basic tests, you don't deserve a foal.

As a note, as HYPP is associated as originating with the Impressive line, HERDA originated from the Poco Bueno line. It kind of tells you something about breeding practices when diseases can be traced back to a single horse.

Pictures of HERDA:










HERDA


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## Cheshire (Oct 17, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> What you just described is referred to as HERDA (Hereditary Equine Regional Derma Asthenia). Essentially, they're missing the proteins that form the layer that attaches skin to muscle tissue. Any sort of slight trauma such as being dumped or having a saddle placed on them causes the skin to disconnect from the tissues. It's a horrific disease and 110% preventable (like HYPP). Things like this make me SO angry because it's only born out of irresponsible breeding practices. I doubt I'd ever breed my little Paint mare, but if I did, you can bet your buns she'd be tested for HYPP and HERDA, as well as determing her Overo status to prevent any LWO foals. If you can't be prepared to pitch out for these basic tests, you don't deserve a foal.
> 
> As a note, as HYPP is associated as originating with the Impressive line, HERDA originated from the Poco Bueno line. It kind of tells you something about breeding practices when diseases can be traced back to a single horse.
> 
> ...


Yeah..."HERDA" sounds familiar now. It was so horrible to see...that wretched woman, I honestly hope one of her ill-mannered horses managed to land a kick.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

I had to watch as the vet cut a full term dead foal out of my mom's friend's mare.His back legs tried to come out with the front ones...There was a another foal about the size of a football (dead of course).It was horrible and something I will never forget.This wasn't some BY brood mare...She was a pro barrel horse that had already had 3 foals in 8 yrs.Yet we see fugly brood mares popping out foals with no problems. Nature is cruel

So what im saying is,Its a risk even if you give them the best care possible.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

1. Absolutely outsanding hannoverian mare to very VERY good and well represented hannoverian imported stallion. Both with magnificent conformation. Healthy foaling, all is great other than foal has crooked front legs. $2000 and 2 opperations later in the first 2 weeks of life and foal is a ok. 

2. Same mare, different stallion. ABSOLUTELY MAGNIFICENT stallion, 'borrowed' for stud duties from Germany for 2 years only. Mare had very good, healthy pregnancy. Came down to foaling time, baby is HUGE... and only a nose and front leg are out. Foal is dead. Mare is very VERY sick. Vet get there in 30mins. Drops the mare and spends 40mins trying to remove foal in the middle of the paddock to no avail. Ended up having to section and saw off parts of the foal to remove it. Was the most beautifull, dainty BIG filly, really long legs, liver chestnut, thin stripe and 4 little socks. 

Mare never recovered, pined for her foal for weeks, got depressed, weight just dropped off her. Got moved to my property with another little retiree welshie mare, and seemed to pick up in condition and in herself. Tried to put her in foal a few months later to the same stallion. Took the first time, then at 45 day scan discovered there were twins, pinched one, then scan 2 weeks later showed she had aborted.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

Kayty said:


> Tried to put her in foal a few months later to the same stallion. Took the first time, then at 45 day scan discovered there were twins, pinched one, then scan 2 weeks later showed she had aborted.


why would you try to breed back a mare who just had that happen a few months ago?


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

AlmagroN said:


> _why would you try to breed back a mare who just had that happen a few months ago_?


I wouildn't be concerned about breeding back a mare that had lost a pregnancy around 60 days after a twin was pinched like the post-er described, however having just had a huge foal sectioned out would concern me. If she checked out fine with the vet it might ease my mind a little, but I would still be concerned that she might have another too-large foal again.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

Eastowest said:


> I wouildn't be concerned about breeding back a mare that had lost a pregnancy around 60 days after a twin was pinched like the post-er described, however having just had a huge foal sectioned out would concern me. If she checked out fine with the vet it might ease my mind a little, but I would still be concerned that she might have another too-large foal again.


i agree !
in many cases when they try to pinch one twin off the other one ends up getting re absorbed too. it is not uncommon & is no fault of the mares


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

Eastowest said:


> I wouildn't be concerned about breeding back a mare that had lost a pregnancy around 60 days after a twin was pinched like the post-er described, however having just had a huge foal sectioned out would concern me. If she checked out fine with the vet it might ease my mind a little, but I would still be concerned that she might have another too-large foal again.


i should have stated my question better. that is what i was getting at. because after it was a too large foal, they still bred back to the same stallion. to me, thats just asking for trouble again. i didnt understand WHY they would do THAT... not why they would breed her lol.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Vet cleared her to breed again, she had no retained material and was fine. She has always been an extremely easy breeder. it was one of those freak accidents where it was a large foal but was positioned badly and hence got stuck. The previous foal was far bigger, to a much larger stallion, and that was text book. It was just one of those bad luck events. Also, after paying close the AUD$4000 for the stud fee, of course that money wasn't going to be just thrown away because the mare had one bad foaling after many perfect pregnancies. 
I wouldn't criticise unless you know the full story


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

Kayty said:


> Vet cleared her to breed again, she had no retained material and was fine. She has always been an extremely easy breeder. it was one of those freak accidents where it was a large foal but was positioned badly and hence got stuck. The previous foal was far bigger, to a much larger stallion, and that was text book. It was just one of those bad luck events. Also, after paying close the AUD$4000 for the stud fee, of course that money wasn't going to be just thrown away because the mare had one bad foaling after many perfect pregnancies.
> I wouldn't criticise unless you know the full story


why would you be paying that much if you dont have a live foal? dont you have a contract? thats part of responsible breeding- contracts. we just bred to a stallion whos stud fee is $7,500. the contract is what protects you. my mare HAS to give birth to a LIVE FOAL who lives for a certain amount of hours- i cant remember if this one said 24 or 48 hours. or else we dont pay. if my mare comes due in april and for some reason doesnt have a live foal or it dies within that time, im not throwing breeding cost away. 

also, if my mare had a foal who got stuck, i would reconsider my breeding to that stallion again and putting her at that risk again. it can go great a few times sure, but after that ONE time getting suck, im probably not going to put her at that risk again. i would choose a better stallion for her.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>> why would you be paying that much if you dont have a live foal? dont you have a contract? thats part of responsible breeding- contracts. we just bred to a stallion whos stud fee is $7,500. the contract is what protects you. my mare HAS to give birth to a LIVE FOAL who lives for a certain amount of hours- i cant remember if this one said 24 or 48 hours. or else we dont pay._

It totally depends on the breeding contract. Some 'live foal guarantee" contracts DO require payment of the whole fee before the mare goes home, and then if the mare does not deliver a live and/or "stands and sucks" foal, a re-breed is provided, or a refund is offered--again all depending on the contract terms.


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## CheyAut (Nov 26, 2008)

AlmagroN, what you describe is the way race horse breeding works. 

Pretty much all other breeding is NOT like that. You have to pay up front. IF the contract has a LFG (not all do, although I think most do), and you don't get a live foal, then you typically do not get your money back: you get a re-breed. Some have stipulations that only one re-breed possible, so really it's not 100% LFG.

I bred a mare to a stally with LFG and she aborted. I chose not to take a risk to my mare and re-breed her (all was ok other than a retained placenta, but this mare means so much to me that I didn't want to be potentially putting her life at risk again, and had recently lost a very beloved mare (not pregnant or relate to that, but still pretty traumatized at the time). Because I chose not to re-breed her, I took a loss on the stallion fee (plus mare care and vet fees of course, but would've even if I did re-breed her). That's how most non-race horse breeding fees work.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

thanks CheyAut. thats amazing to me. im glad our contracts arent like that. it seems VERY unfair.


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