# Mini filly kicking and other behaviour issues



## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

Sorry can't advise on the kicking, but why are you keeping a two-year old filly with a stallion? Most likely she is pregnant at this time... and hardly more than a baby herself


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

^^That was my question. :-( She is obviously spoiled, as only a mini can be. They are tough little ******s. I can only tell you what my BO (who has rehabbed several) does.....she does groundwork with them just as she does her regular horses, and kicking and bad behavior are treated just like a regular horse. THey need to think their little world is ending for about 3 seconds. They do take a LOT of patience tho', so good luck!


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

She sounds spoiled and needs rules. The problem is that as others have said pregnancy is likely. A baby could make her really protective/aggressive to handle.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

:shock::shock: Please get her away from the stallion, geld him and have her pregnancy check and/or lute her. 


Pregnancy can account for major behavior changes. 

She needs a firm hand, and to not get away with *anything*.


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

It is unfortunate that you felt you had to put a mare with behavioral issues in with a stallion, as this could compound your problem. Also, do you know if she has any genetic issues? How about the stallion? Are you set up to handle a foal? Is there a possibility that the foal could be born a dwarf? Is there a reason why you put them together? Is she breed worthy? Is the stallion and the mare going to pass great genetics? 

Please, get her tested and take her out of the stallions enclosure until you can properly work with her on a consistent basis, start with the basics, letting you touch her, brush and comb out her mane and tail. Basics like picking her hooves up, tie to a patience pole, being led, things like that. If she goes to kick you or bite you, I have slapped my horse good and hard with an open hand in the neck or chest. Same with biting, two things I personally will not tolerate.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Grey-there IS a fence between them, Op stated that in the original post, so they are not in the same enclosure at least, but that does not stop a determined stud or a little hussy.

Oh and kicking deserves more than a slap with an open hand. JMHO. That is pretty useless for dangerous behavior in many horses, altho there are a few that are scared of their own shadow enough for that to make some impact.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Franknbeans, OP states they were separated and now are together...


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## LittlemanRob (Sep 14, 2010)

They were separated but now they are together after some supervised test sessions. Her heat is over and he has no interest in mating her since even bumping against her or getting too close to her rear gets him kicked. He figured that out pretty quick.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Unless you are watching them 24/7 you have no clue if they bred or not while together or through the fence. 

Please, PLEASE to the responsible thing and separate them and have her pregnancy checked. 

Unless you are actually wanting them to breed?... Then I'm not even touching that can of worms.


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## LittlemanRob (Sep 14, 2010)

This behaviour has been apparent since day 1 and she certainly didn't arrive pregnant so its not that. They've only been together for about 3 weeks now. 

Edit: She didn't get pregnant through the electric fence. If she did it was meant to be and I'd call the foal Shocker.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Ooops-my bad-sorry -missed that!

OP-are you really that "innocent"? She most likely is no longer in heat because she has been bred. You need to get her the shot of lute, and him gelded, or put in an area FAR from her.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

The OP has gotten solid advice and I HOPE HE HAS TAKEN IT SERIOUSLY. 


Though, to be honest, the "Shocker" comment makes me think he hasn't. As an adult, the OP knows about "the birds and the bees", so I will guess they intend the breeding.

Does it make me a bad person to be amused....that a married man cant see that even if nine kicks land, the tenth try might be the charm?


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## LittlemanRob (Sep 14, 2010)

Maybe I am innocent, stupid or both but I don't think she is pregnant. Her heat ended before they were put together and I am pretty sure he didn't breed her through the fence. The fencer is 6 joules and there are 3 strands. I hit it myself last week and it left my arm numb below the elbow for about an hour. 

I thought mares were supposed to end their cycles in general around september? This is what I've been reading anyways. Since the cycles appeared to be over I assumed they were safe to be put together?


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

a mare and a stallion are NEVER EVER safe to be put together unless you want a foal. Heat or no. You have no idea what's going on when you aren't around, and I'd bet money she's been bred, whether or not she acts snappy when he comes near. A stallion's life mission is to breed, and he WILL do it. Seriously - since I've joined this forum there's been SO MANY "Oh, they were only together for a day," or "Can't be pregnant, she's not in heat/cycling," even "They're separated by a fence!" And BINGO, horse is pregnant. It's made me come to the conclusion that horses WILL have at it if you give them half a chance - and you've given them MORE than half a chance.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

It's like a horsey episode of Teen Mom....

But we only did it once with out a condom! It takes more than once to get pregnant!


Get a vet out, and separate them.


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## LittlemanRob (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks for all the concern about whether she is pregnant or not but I'm more worried about her kicking problem and her twitchy behaviour. And I will say again she has been this way since day one so I don't think the behaviour is because of pregnancy. I first thought it was because she was in heat and would pass once her cycles ended. Since it hasn't I am asking for advise on her behaviour. I also thought that since her cycle ended and her behaviour hasn't gotten better, it might of been because she was anxious about being separated from him. So I put them together and supervised. He attempted to mount her once and that was the last time. She went after him pretty good. I put them together for longer periods and he has not made a single attempt. After being present after much observation I decided to let them stay together. I was actually more worried about his safety as she is larger and her temperament was concern. She has actually been better to be around since they have been together. She can at least be approached and have a leadline put on. She'll come for treats but she does not want to be handled. An obvious move to handle her results in shying away or aggression. I usually bribe her with food and snap the halter on. I've tried grooming her daily to get her used to being handled. I thought I was making progress until she kicked me tonight. I was beginning to think she had been abused so I didn't want to be too aggressive because I didn't want to make it worse.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

I agree with all the possible breeding replies. Not only possible but likely.

Regarding her attitude...she sounds really spoiled. She is a HORSE, albeit a really short one. Treat her like you would any other horse and get busy with ground work and making yourself the boss of the outfit! She will a lot better critter with structure and rules.


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

LittlemanRob said:


> *Thanks for all the concern about whether she is pregnant or not but I'm more worried about her kicking problem and her twitchy behaviour*. And I will say again she has been this way since day one so I don't think the behaviour is because of pregnancy. I first thought it was because she was in heat and would pass once her cycles ended. Since it hasn't I am asking for advise on her behaviour. I also thought that since her cycle ended and her behaviour hasn't gotten better, it might of been because she was anxious about being separated from him. So I put them together and supervised. *He attempted to mount her once and that was the last time*. She went after him pretty good. I put them together for longer periods and he has not made a single attempt. After being present after much observation I decided to let them stay together. I was actually more worried about his safety as she is larger and her temperament was concern. She has actually been better to be around since they have been together. She can at least be approached and have a leadline put on. She'll come for treats but she does not want to be handled. An obvious move to handle her results in shying away or aggression. I usually bribe her with food and snap the halter on. I've tried grooming her daily to get her used to being handled. I thought I was making progress until she kicked me tonight. I was beginning to think she had been abused so I didn't want to be too aggressive because I didn't want to make it worse.


Addressing statement 1: We know, and we're trying to GIVE you advice on her behavior! Pregnancy can and will make nasty behavior worse. And we're giving you sound advice based on what you've given us. 

Addressing the 2nd one: Do you KNOW that? Were you watching? Do you have cameras set up? If he mounted her once he will do it again.

Just approach her like you would a normal horse. Go in, love her, feed her, and leave. Get her used to you, then used to her touching you, then slowly start to get her used to a halter and lead, etc. She's spoiled and gets away with too much.

And for the love of pete, separate them if you don't want a foal. If you're TRYING to get a foal tell us already.


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## LittlemanRob (Sep 14, 2010)

I don't want a foal now but I'm not dumb enough to think it can't happen. No, I can't watch them 24/7 but I do have two cameras that watch their pasture so I've spent more time watching them then you'd think. Both in person and on camera. Neither of them will get closer than about 3 feet because they want to be around each other but she will NOT let him touch her. Sometimes they get close when coming to me for a treat but she has kicked him for being too close. They generally graze about 10-20 feet from each other. This is why I think he hasn't mated her despite the possible missed instances while fast forwarding through surveillance footage or in the dark when the cameras can't see as far. Her demeanor is just too twitchy for him. I will separate them, just in case it changes. 

In the meantime I still have to deal with this behaviour. Should I react aggressively when she kicks at me? I am quite capable of going after her hard enough to scare the crap out of her without truly injuring her if thats what this situation warrants. I've not had to deal with a horse like this. No, I don't have a pile of experience. This is the third horse I have actually owned.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

Gah, so much wrong with the train of thouht going on here. I mean why in the world put a two yearold BABY in with a stud? Oh, she was lonely...ok..how will you feel if when she does get knocked up, she gets sick, dies, baby dies, both die? That aside....

I was a noobie owner of an arguably feral horse, and my first was a 5 monyh old filly. Guess what? Its not one size fits all! You HAVE to be able to read them enough to figure out if big andnbad works, or if it was even intentional, or you just got in the way. WE CANT TEACH YOU THAT. Nor apparently, does it sound like you want to hear everyone's good advice! If I am right....youre in to learn the hard way. Experiment with her, be grateful she doesnt weigh a thousand pounds, and try not to get too hurt.

I feel for the poor filly the most...she is the one most bound to suffer if it all goes wrong. Poor thing.


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## LittlemanRob (Sep 14, 2010)

demonwolfmoon said:


> Gah, so much wrong with the train of thouht going on here. I mean why in the world put a two yearold BABY in with a stud? Oh, she was lonely...ok..how will you feel if when she does get knocked up, she gets sick, dies, baby dies, both die? That aside....
> 
> I was a noobie owner of an arguably feral horse, and my first was a 5 monyh old filly. Guess what? Its not one size fits all! You HAVE to be able to read them enough to figure out if big andnbad works, or if it was even intentional, or you just got in the way. WE CANT TEACH YOU THAT. Nor apparently, does it sound like you want to hear everyone's good advice! If I am right....youre in to learn the hard way. Experiment with her, be grateful she doesnt weigh a thousand pounds, and try not to get too hurt.
> 
> I feel for the poor filly the most...she is the one most bound to suffer if it all goes wrong. Poor thing.


As far as advise goes, how can you say I don't want to hear "everyone's good advise?" I already stated I was going to separate them. If she's already pregnant, well, I can't do much about that. No, I am not getting him gelded. By the way, my stud is also a baby. He is only 3. I've gotten advise here locally from horse owners who said I should have just put them together from the beginning and not bothered worrying about it like I did. Most have also said I need to get pretty rough with the punishment for a bit until she stops kicking. One offered their round pen and their time as well to help work on her. I came here because wanted other opinions because I don't like to be too rough. I've accomplished much without it with my other animals. If I need to be, so be it but I want to be sure its the right thing to do.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

You can lute if she's already pregnant, and that would be the responsible thing to do, as she's only a baby herself. I can't imagine the local advise you are getting, so I will just let that be. 



LittlemanRob said:


> In the meantime I still have to deal with this behaviour. Should I react aggressively when she kicks at me? I am quite capable of going after her hard enough to scare the crap out of her without truly injuring her if thats what this situation warrants.


Yes, make her feel like she has done the worst thing she has ever done, because she has.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Yes, you need to get tough with her. Punishment should swift, strong and then over with (don't hold a grudge). Best to stop her when she's just thinking about kicking or biting and before she actually does it. You need to learn to watch for the signs, ears pinned, body tensing, the look she's giving you... are the most obvious.

About heat cycles stopping in Sept. ummm no. Hubby left the stallions gate open one time in Nov. and got in with our herd of mares. Was only about an hour until I noticed and went out and got him. Thankfully, only 1 mare ended up pregnant out of the 6 that were in the herd. So I ended up with a colt born in mid October who then officially turned a year old a couple of months later because APHA uses Jan. 1 as the birthdate no matter when they were born the previous year.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

actually, if you catch it in time, the vet can give her a shot of Lute. Think of it as the Morning After pill....

If she is kicking out of fear, thats one consideration. You can then decide if YOU are causing the fear, and how to get hwr over it. OR if she is being a witch, UNLEASH wrath. Dont beat her, but you would need to let her know in no uncertain terms that you are the BOSS, and she dare not even think of raising hoof to you. 

And if you dont want him gelded, get used to him being lonely. Or resign uourself to backyard breeding foals until something bad happens. Hope they all find good homes, and you decide gelding is worth it, otherwise. ...the cycle repeats, only with the added joy of inbreeding!

How can I say uou arent listening? Ok, Im pretty sure people asked why you would chance breeding these animals. 

Are they registered?
Any chance of dwarf, read sickly, offspring?
Do they have good conformation, are built well, for breeding?
Are you willing and prepared to give prenatal care?
Do you have a vet on call if something goes wrong with the pregnancy?
Is there really any darn good reason this stud wouldn't be so much better off as a gelding??!

And I will add, did you know she can get knocked up AGAIN her heat after baby? 

Anyway, IMO you're over your head. Get the filly a shot of lute if possible, separate them and work on her training issues WITHOUT the added atress.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

If you have someone who offered their round pen and their time to help I would certainly take then up on their offer. Often just getting help to get started solving a behavior problem will do wonders for both you and the little horse. She may be a real stinker right now but she may be clueless and confused and frustrated too. Getting her to accept a halter and being handled is a beginning. You have to be consistent and clear in what you ask her to do and always reward her try with release of pressure. It's rewarding to see progress when you are working with a horse.
I would encourage you to take the offer of help. I certainly have had times I needed help and was so grateful for the help of a friend.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Not all mares stop cycling in September... There is no majik cut off. Some cycle all year round.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I think that its a good idea to start with the basics. I am not a huge fan of "natural horsemanship" but I think looking into someone like clinton anderson or pareli might be helpful because it would give you a place to start. She is a horse, a small one, but a horse. She needs to be treated like a horse. 

If you have decided to just let nature be nature than you have about eleven months to really get this mare into shape. Which means that you have a relationship to start from if she become aggressive when she has her foal. If you decide to keep this mare in foal (because if she is not already she will be soon), than you need to read up on mare/foal care. Which means get to know your vet well and have a plan for an emergency. You also need to start her on an appropriate diet and get her on a vaccination/worming schedule. 

Mini's are known for having trouble delivering. The most common issue they have is either mal-positioning or red bag. The red bag is just when the placenta detatches prematurely and the foal either dies or suffers brain damage (which often leads to euthanasia). The foal is only viable for about 45 minutes after labor starts. Which is why, if you have a poorly positioned foal (head back, one leg back etc) you end up removing a dead foal so you can save the mare. In normal sized horses, this can mean cutting the foal up and removing it piece by piece. In a mini, the vets hand won't be big enough, so its often just euthanizing the mare and foal. I don't say these things to be morbid but to let you know that breeding mini's is not for the faint of heart and you need to be prepared for what can lay down the road. Which is why so many have suggested that you geld the stallion and let him be with the mare without the risk of pregnancy.


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## LittlemanRob (Sep 14, 2010)

Rookie: Thank you for your very helpful post about the reproductive issue.. Now I better understand why people are so concerned. You explained it to me without leaving me feeling like I was being attacked. 

Dustbunny, NdAppy and others, thank you for advise on their behaviour. I'll need to figure out whether its fear or witchiness. I'm leaning toward witchiness. At first I attributed to hormonal and heat. Also because the rehoming was stressful and the change from her normal environment has her confused. I cut her too much slack. She needs to learn to respect me and never kick so I will get tough with her . I'll round pen her with assistance from my friends if still possible.

I came here for advise because there are very few mini owners in my area. None of which I know personally. The person who gave me much of my advise breeds quality quarter horses. I understand them to know quite a bit about horses. However, they don't have minis or any experience with them. Some of the big horse owners seem to have an attitude that minis are not "real horses". Lots of western working horse hobbyists. They often seem to see horses as a tools and not like pets. Either that or they hide it well.

Mine are pets. I have no intention of selling them or a foal if we have one. I did intend to breed him down the road to a suitable mare. He is a very unique looking little fellow. His personality and disposition are fantastic. They only way he could be better is he'd need to be 15 hands tall. I spend a lot of time with him. 

She is essentially a rescue. Given away by someone who didn't want the responsibility anymore or just lost interest. Around here unwanted horses often end up at the zoo as meat for the lions. He needed a companion because I felt he was lonely since his buddy died. So I took her on. I've rescued many dogs and have done very well. My current dog is a rescue. They stay with me until they die, usually of old age. I don't give them away or sell them. I'll do the same with my horses. 

I agree she is too young to breed. The big horse owners think its fine when they do it but now I see they don't know critical details about minis. I will see if the vet around here even knows what a lute is.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

The kill pens right now are full of minis...going to slaughter. 

Cannot understand why you did this. Just wrong on so many counts.

As to the advice you've gotten from other people with horses?

Just wrong on so many counts.

She is spoiled. That is the problem.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

You need to treat her as you would a large horse that is acting that way. Small size does not negate the fact they are horses and can be just as dangerous as a fullsized horse. 

Please geld the stud while you're at it. Like Palomine said, minis are all over in the kill pens. If you are still determined to breed... Do you know what to look for in genetics? Do you know what he could pass on if bred? Is he a dwarf carrier or showing dwarf characteristics? The list goes on and on and on. It's way, WAY more extensive for minis than the full size due not only to the MAJOR complications that they can have in foaling, but due to the enormous amount of genetic defects that are known in the breed...


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## LittlemanRob (Sep 14, 2010)

Palomine said:


> The kill pens right now are full of minis...going to slaughter.
> 
> Cannot understand why you did this. Just wrong on so many counts.
> 
> ...


Why I did what? Take a mini that was probably going to slaughter if I didn't take her?

I'm starting to get a bit frustrated with some peoples responses.. like yours for example.

I'm trying to rectify the situation. I've already separated the two of them and I will talk to the vet tomorrow about lutes in case she is pregnant. What more am I supposed to do?

I had some maybe not so good advise from the only horse people I know. I didn't come here to be crucified for it. 

NdAppy: I will look more into genetics and problems before I decide to geld him or mate him. I can keep them separated indefinitely until I figure it out. Its not like I don't have the space for it. 

I almost regret asking for help here. People seem to be more interested in judging than helping.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

They really are trying to help Littlemanrob, its just that this is a situation we've seen over and over again so we tend to be...harsh.

I'm very glad that you're trying to take advice and keep an open mind, and that you've separated the two. Please do ask your vet about the lute. Pregnancy in a two year old never ends well. And I'm glad you took the filly from the situation she was in. Life on a stake is no life.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

No one is trying to be rude or harsh, but this type of situation pops up all the time on the forum and it does get a little repetitive. So much of the "fluffy would never breed pooky!" and on and on. 

Everyone wants to see what is best for the horses and not have them end up on bad situations or the mare to die in foaling. Miniature horse breeding is not for the faint of heart. 

The lute shot usually costs around $10-15, but it can vary on the area. 

If you really want to have a companion in with your stud/want to keep him a stud, get a gelding to put with him, BUT be aware with a mare on the property you might end up having to keep him by himself. It just depends. One of those things you would need to keep an eye on.


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## LittlemanRob (Sep 14, 2010)

Endiku said:


> They really are trying to help Littlemanrob, its just that this is a situation we've seen over and over again so we tend to be...harsh.
> 
> I'm very glad that you're trying to take advice and keep an open mind, and that you've separated the two. Please do ask your vet about the lute. Pregnancy in a two year old never ends well. And I'm glad you took the filly from the situation she was in. Life on a stake is no life.


Thanks Endiku.

People here may have seen this situation over and over again but I haven't. I'm a novice horse owner with very little experience and no support from any experienced mini owners. I constantly get conflicting advise. 

I called my friend the horse breeder with the round pen and they think I'm nuts listening to people on the internet. Now I feel like they are judging me for second guessing their advise. I felt so uncomfortable that I didn't bother asking about the round pen work for her.

So I'm backing to slogging this out alone.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

For what its worth, I was in the same situation a couple of years ago. I had a 7-8 month old mini filly that bit, kicked, lunged with bared teeth, etc. I came to the forum thinking I was queen of the world (granted, I was very young...typical kid. LOL) and got my butt whooped HARD. I was basically told I was either going to get myself or my horse killed...or both. It was hard to suck it up and realize I was in a pickle and get help, but I did and that filly is now a beautifully behaved, 5 year old mini driving horse.

People in my town thought (and still think) I'm nutso for listening to a forum of strangers, but I'm living proof that these people know what they're talking about. I was actually able to influence my community regarding horse healthy and nutrition (around here everyone feeds sweet feed or all stock feed) and my mare is great now. She hasn't tried to kick or bite in two years. The forum has also helped me rehab a VERY sick, VERY thin filly who I otherwise wouldn't have known how to help.

I know we're strangers, and I know this is all new and weird to you, but try not to shut us out just yet. We're really not a bad group of people once you get to know us, and we all love our animals. I think that's why we react as quickly as we do.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

She respects fences yes? Then you don't necessarily need a round pen. 

Fence off a small area for her and keep her in there and work with her. Handle her. Treat her like a full sized horse in regards to behavior. You cannot let her get away with anything. The old "give an inch and they'll take a mile" saying is so very true. 

If I were you I would make a post in the training section asking for help/suggestions. You're going to have to treat her as if she doesn't know anything and start from square one. Forget about how she has been treated in the past. Dwelling on that will make it harder to move forward with training. 

If she's kicking out and biting at you when she is loose in the pen with you, take a crop in there and smack her a good one with it when she kicks out. It's a three second rule, just like with toddlers, you have three seconds from the misbehavior to reprimand. Anything past that point is pointless as they don't connect it. You'll get more advice in training stuff in the training section though.


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## LittlemanRob (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks again Endiku.

NdAppy. Yes, she respects the fence and so does he for that matter. Is there any reason why they can't be kept in adjoining pastures with a very powerful electric fence as I did when I first brought her here? I can keep them out of sight of each other but would rather not if the fence is enough to separate them. So far it has been, despite the people that think he may have bred her through it or will. 

Thanks for the info about the lute shot. I am assuming the vet will know what I'm talking about when I ask them.

Tonight when I went to feed her she tried keeping her butt to me ready for kicking. I smacked her with the lead rope until she tried to scoot by me and managed to grab her halter before she got away. I made her stand while I lightly touched her all over with my hands. She is extremely twitchy. Her muscles were very tense and with each touch she would twitch and constantly try to turn her butt toward me. I kept control over her head and didn't stop touching her until she relaxed and stopped twitching. I gave her a treat and let her go. She didn't bother to eat her supper, she ran right out the door. Was that a good way to start?


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## LittlemanRob (Sep 14, 2010)

Called the vet this morning and discussed my reproductive problem with him.

In contrast to the comments from some people here, he is not concerned about her age. He says that minis are full grown at age 2 and there is no additional risk for foaling because of her age or because she is a mini. He says in large horses early pregnancy is associated with greater risks because they are not full grown until age 4 or so. He says the biggest concern here is the fact that minis tend to put on far more weight than a full size horse and can cause a narrowing of the birth canal. Very important to not let them get fat, which is a problem most of the time for minis. 

He says he can do the lutacyte shot if I feel I am not ready. He says there are increased risks using luta because she is a mini and it is really hard to give the correct dose due to their small size. They give 3 shots over a 6 day period. Once shot every second day. After the shot they have to be monitored for colic as the luta will cause them to colic and the minis are at greater risk.

He is coming out monday to evaluate my horses. 

Now I have even more confusing and conflicting information.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

LittlemanRob said:


> Called the vet this morning and discussed my reproductive problem with him.


Good for calling!



LittlemanRob said:


> In contrast to the comments from some people here, he is not concerned about her age. He says that minis are full grown at age 2 and there is no additional risk for foaling because of her age or because she is a mini. He says in large horses early pregnancy is associated with greater risks because they are not full grown until age 4 or so. He says the biggest concern here is the fact that minis tend to put on far more weight than a full size horse and can cause a narrowing of the birth canal. Very important to not let them get fat, which is a problem most of the time for minis.


:shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock: That right there makes me want to tell you to run far and fast from this vet. Just because a miniature horse is smaller does not mean they mature/stop growing any faster than any other size/breed of horse. Miniatures actually have MORE, many, *many* more foaling/breeding complications and issues than any other breed/type of horse out there! Anyone who believes otherwise is delusional. Yes, minis tend to be air ferns. That just means just like with larger horses, you have to monitor their diet. 



LittlemanRob said:


> He says he can do the lutacyte shot if I feel I am not ready. He says there are increased risks using luta because she is a mini and it is really hard to give the correct dose due to their small size. They give 3 shots over a 6 day period. Once shot every second day. After the shot they have to be monitored for colic as the luta will cause them to colic and the minis are at greater risk.
> 
> He is coming out monday to evaluate my horses.
> 
> Now I have even more confusing and conflicting information.


Yes lutalyse causes symptoms that appear colic like as it causes the horse to short cycle and come back into heat and aborting any pregnancy that they may have. The symptoms are short timed and do not cause any lasting effect. It's essentially the morning after "pill" for horses.


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## LittlemanRob (Sep 14, 2010)

NdAppy. I don't have much choice in vets. This clinic is the only large animal vet in a 50 mile radius. Running away isn't much of an option here.

Regardless of their opinions on whether or not she is safe to have a foal, I am having them come out to evaluate them anyways. I will make my decision on the luta at that time. I did not intend to have a foal at this time so I am leaning towards having the injections anyways. They did say the colic symptoms would be short lived and they just need supervision after the injection to prevent them from lying down or rolling, since they say the horse reaction to the luta is the problem, not the luta itself.

He also said that it is possible the shots won't work, but if they don't the shots themselves won't cause any problems for the fetus if it doesn't abort.

This vet also says that because of the seasonal climate here, its possible her cycles won't end till November or possibly not at all.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think you are going to struggle with this mare as long as you have a stallion around - even in the next field he's still there and they can smell each other
There are mares that are no problem around stallions and there are mares that are complete witches.
When she's in season you're going to have two very frustrated ponies pacing up and down the fence and getting really irritable about the situation
Get the stallion gelded so he can enjoy a normal life and then you can deal with the mare - though you might find her behavior changes once he's lost his manhood.
She might have a cyst problem that's causing her to be so aggressive - could need checking out too


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

OP, I think you are doing a great job of trying to sort out a lot of conflicting and strong advice. It seems you made a mistake, quite possibly, resulting in the likely pregnancy of the filly. Well, here's my thoughts;

you wanted to breed that stud, right? well, you probably did. So, allow the foal to be born, geld the stud and work on the filly's behavior issues, and, ultimately, either keep all three as pets, or look to rehome one of them (now well trained) after the baby is here. And if baby is a colt, geld him so you can have a peaceful "herd".


With the filly, look at making her respectful at you at feeding time. That is the first place to start. Work at requiring her respect before you give her a drop of food. Never allow her to come in take a bite until you have moved her away, stood over the food 'claimed' it, then, after making her wait, move off and allow her at it. 
Then yoiu do the same thing, but you go up and pet her before allowing her to have at the hay. I don't know if you said she was aggressive at food time, but getting her a bit hungry and using access to food as a reward for submission will be a good starting point.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xfFxYgY_5g0


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

LittlemanRob said:


> NdAppy. I don't have much choice in vets. This clinic is the only large animal vet in a 50 mile radius. Running away isn't much of an option here.


I drove my deformed Shetland colt 2 hours to a Veterinary hospital in another *STATE *to try to improve the condition of his legs.

It is possible to trailer to another vet outside of the one that you are currently using, to obtain a second opinion on things that seem a little bit off, or for example done "because that's the way it's always been done".


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I have reservations about your vets advice. Mini's are different than "normal sized" horses. If they are not really common to your area than your vet may not be familiar with them and their various reproductive quirks. While yes, technically a two year old is a mature horse its sort of like saying a 17 year old is a mature human. Yes, they are the adult size; however, mentally they are in a different place. I don't think you need to change vets because sometimes that is not an option. I know the two hour trailer ride is warrented in some cases, but at 2 am who is showing up at your farm to help? Probably not that guy who is a two hour trailer ride away. 

I like tiny's idea. I think its worth it to see if the mare is pregnant and then either keep her in foal and geld the stallion or keep them separate. The thing is that some stallions once the have sealed the deal and figured out what fun their parts are, can become really tricky and determined. Likewise, some mares in heat have no shame. Thus, one motivated boy plus one motivated girl could lead to a blessed union that results in a motivated baby. Which is one plus to gelding the stud. While there are lots of horses in slaughter pens around the world, I would not use that as the only reason not to breed. The presence of thousands of thoroughbred's being sent to slaughter is not stopping Calumet or Stonestreet from putting mares in foal. The bigger issue is that mares and foals are expensive, the OP is still learning the mini world and they may not want a horse they bred (accident or intentional) to end up at slaughter. In which case, the best option is gelding. 

I also know how you feel about getting internet advice. I like to keep that little side of things on down low. Mostly because you can get really great advice or horrible advice. You say internet horse advice and it brings out the skeptics. 

That is why looking into some well known horse trainers might be good. It can be a good insight into a horses mind. People like Buck Brenneman, Clinton Anderson, or Parelli are all good places to start that might help you help your horse. I know that a lot of folks don't care for the DVDs and I think that following any one person to the extreme is harmful, but it can provide a good step stone, that would allow you to build your confidence with this little mare.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Miniatures also need constant supervision late in the last trimester of their pregnancy because their birth canals or pelvises are all too often too small for the foal and the foal gets stuck. If you don't notice that way, it can end up in the death of both mare and foal or at very least an infection in the mare's uterus. 


Minis are definitely NOT mature as two year olds. The biggest immaturity about them at that age is that they aren't as filled out and 'wide' as they are at four and older, which means their pelvis is going to SUPER small. They may be as tall as they're ever going to be, and capable of foaling, but it doesn't mean they should. You could get lucky and have a good birth, or you could get very unlucky and lose both of them. Also, if you keep the foal you are going to need a foaling area with very safe fencing that is FAR from the stallion. You likely won't be able to put the foal and mare in together with the stallion ever.


All of that said just to let you know what you're in for if she is pregnant and you keep the foal. I think it is a good idea for you to have the vet out to see the mare for himself and to discuss it fully with him, then decide from there.

As for all of you who think getting rid of the vet is necessary, I have to disagree. My vet knows absolutely nothing about minis (he suggested that I put my mini mare on constant grass to fatten her up when she was thin, and told me they didn't have dietary restrictions) but that doesn't mean he's a bad vet. On the contrary, I think he's a big part of the reason Kenzie, my filly, is alive and healthy. He came and checked on her more than he had to in order to see who she was doing, for free, and he got her through EHV when she was already EXTREMELY sick with a careful strategy. That is no little feat. He's also been great with handling our more skittish horses and is very good at detecting illnesses and lameness. Just because he doesn't know everything there is to know about a certain breed of horse (remember, he works with 6+ species every single day) doesn't mean he's a worthless vet, it just means I should get a second or third opinion on treatment of my mini before doing anything.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Would you consider getting a trainer out there, or someone more experienced with minis to help you? I think you would both benefit from it, for sure. She cannot continue to behave the way she is.

In regards to the reproductive bit... I think keeping them together was a bit silly, but that bottom line is that they are your horses. If you want a little baby mini, and it's one that you plan to keep, then I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon with everyone else.

It's commendable of you to come on here and ask for help when you need it.


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## LittlemanRob (Sep 14, 2010)

If I do go through with her pregnancy, be assured I will be keeping careful eye on her and have the vet out for regular checks. I am asking the vet to check my stud while he is here and ask about signs of dwarfism and other genetic issues. 

I am not going to assume my the vet is 100% right in any case on anything. I have had enough contact with vets and animals over the years that I don't trust any of them implicitly. If I think something is off I will say so and seek independent opinions. I do the same for my own health and the rest of my families health.

Tinytiny: She hasn't been aggressive with her food at all. I can feed her by hand. She will always come to me but when she does she doesn't want to be touched. Even with food in front of her, if I'm not holding her she will either run away or turn her butt to me if I tried to pet her.

Today I spent a long time working with her. I brought a nice treat with me and when she was eating from my hand I attached her lead. She tried to turn her butt to me but I cracked her good with the crop every time she attempted to turn. She gave up on that and just started trying to run away. Good enough. So I let her run in circles around me and cracked her every time she tried to get her butt to me. She soon tired of that and finally stopped and faced me. I petted her and told her she was good and gave her another treat. 

So off to the barn we went. I tied her up and started touching her everywhere with various objects. The crop, another lead line, brushes, my hand, whatever. She didn't try to kick me but was very twitchy for the first 10 minutes or so. She is especially sensitive around her flanks, belly and rump. You can see her body twitch when being touched. After the twitching stopped I brushed her, combed her mane and tale, cleaned her feet (which she picked up nicely without kicking) and even wiped her legs down with a wet cloth and warm water since she is a bit muddy. It went very well. Gave her another treat and sent her on her way.

I just came in from the barn tonight from feeding and she was quite a bit better. She came into the barn on her own and didn't turn her butt to me or try to run away when I tried touching her while she ate. While she ate her supplement I walked around her and cleaned things up and got hay and she didn't act sketchy at all.

On a whim I decided to bring the little stud in when she was done with her supplement. She was fine with him as well. She neighed a little when she first saw him coming in but she made room for him beside the hay pile and they ate quietly together. After she was done I put her back out on her side of the pasture.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Good! It sounds like she is beginning to learn a valuable lesson from you. Kicking is NEVER the correct answer, and standing quietly means rest. Its good that she lets you handle her feet, that was a BIG no no with my mare when I first got her. She was super sensitive (especially on her right side) as well, and it just took a lot patience to get her over it. I found that firm touches seem to go better than light touches, which feel annoying and ticklish on some of their skin.


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## LittlemanRob (Sep 14, 2010)

You're just being mean franknbeans. Your input is not needed or welcome so please go away.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Look-for the record-if you go back and look-I was one of the first ones who suggested how to deal with a witchy little mini mare. I have not said one word about your "situation" until now. Fact is, that she now likes him. Any wonder? Whether you like it or not, that is how it works some times. Mares put up a fuss.....then once bred are all cozy with the stud. That is all I am pointing out. Period.

Like it or not, this is a public forum. I am not derailing it, and am just as free to post as anyone else. Whether you like what I say or not has no bearing on it what so ever.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I'm doubting your vet will have any idea what to look for in regards to dawrfism in miniatures. Dwarfism is not a clear cut "this horse is dwarf" or "this horse is not dwarf" There are many different varieties of dwarfism and can show with minimal/hardly noticeable traits or are recessive genes (in other words breed to carriers together and get a dwarf).


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## LittlemanRob (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks NdAppy. I'll remember that.

Do you know where I could go to get some more information on dwarfism and their traits for minis? Someone suggested a mini forum somewhere in an earlier post but now I can't find it. Would that be a good place?


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Lil Beginnings, I believe. just type their name into google and they'll pop up. They have a very good section on dwarfism. Just because your horse doesn't look like a dwarf doesn't mean it isn't carrying the gene though, unfortunately. The farm I worked for bought a BEAUTIFULLY conformed, successfully showing 3 year old stallion, bred him to a very nice mare, and produced a dwarf. He was gelded and the mare was retired from breeding as soon as the baby came out deformed since we didn't know who had the gene, and we kept the baby, but it just goes to show you that two perfect parents doesn't necessarily mean a healthy baby. It took a lot of money and a few surgeries to get this guy in working order and at 15 he's very old.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Yep Lil Beginnings. Lots of info from John Eberth on there.


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## LittlemanRob (Sep 14, 2010)

I already googled dwarfism but I was looking for something a little more narrowed down. Thanks NdAppy and Endiku. Thats exactly what I was looking for.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

That's why I said it wasn't cut and dried. Dwarfism is a big, BIG problem in miniature horses.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

subbing


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## Lockwood (Nov 8, 2011)

Closed for moderator review.


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