# 3 vs 4 beat



## sorelhorse

Its like a trope.
Its when the horse(its not always at the lope) tries to lope, but doesnt pick up their leading shoulder and doesnt take weight off the front end, so it looks like they are trotting in front and loping in back. Ill see if i can find a video of it. its very ugly when you see it.


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## tempest

Now you're talking about the 4 beat?


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## sorelhorse

yes. what i described was a 4 beat


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## farmpony84

It's like they are cantering in the front and trotting in the back.


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## Spyder

tempest said:


> After reading the western pleasure subforum, I became confused. Just what is the difference between the 3 beat canter and the 4 beat canter. Obviously the 3 beat should have three distinct footfalls, but what exactly is the 4 beat caner? Is it a hand gallop?


Hardly a hand gallop.


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## Jillyann

Spyder, what is that video showing? An example of a 3 beat or 4 beat canter? I too am very confused!


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## Spyder

Jillyann said:


> Spyder, what is that video showing? An example of a 3 beat or 4 beat canter? I too am very confused!



The horse actually does both. At times the lope barely satisfies the 3 beat but then you will see the 4 beat creep in.

There will appear as if the horse goes lame for 4 or 5 steps intermittently.


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## dressagexlee

The "trope", "tra-canter", or the "cripple-canter" looks something like this:




Or this (watch closely on the third horse especially):




 
Often, the four-beat lope or canter is the result of forcing "collection", with the incorrect use of the hand, gadgets (like draw-reins, et cetera), or even lameness. 
I rode a dressage warmblood that was over-ridden in draw reins, and she had a four-beat canter.


By the way, you have no idea how weird it is watching Western Pleasure while listening to Metal. Too weird.


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## sorelhorse

Spyder said:


> Hardly a hand gallop.
> 
> 
> YouTube - You Bet Im Sumthin


just in my personal opinion, this horses didnt 4 beat at all. he had a very nice 3 beat lope. if you count it you can tell.


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## Jillyann

Spyder said:


> The horse actually does both. At times the lope barely satisfies the 3 beat but then you will see the 4 beat creep in.
> 
> There will appear as if the horse goes lame for 4 or 5 steps intermittently.




Ohhhh Okay. I see it. I did think the horse looked lame for a few strides. But now I kind of understand.


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## sorelhorse

dressagexlee said:


> The "trope", "tra-canter", or the "cripple-canter" looks something like this:
> YouTube - Western Pleasure Lope
> 
> Or this (watch closely on the third horse especially):
> YouTube - Scottsdale Classic 3 Year Old Western Pleasure Futurity
> 
> 
> By the way, you have no idea how weird it is watching Western Pleasure while listening to Metal. Too weird.


the first one was DEFINITLY troping. the was a 4 beat. its so ugly

the second one wasnt as bad, but still not the greatest.


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## corinowalk

Ive been away from western pleasure for about 10 years now...this epidemic was starting just as I was leaving. Im glad I got out. That looks horrible.


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## farmpony84

those videos arent showing it really.. let me see what I can find.


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## dressagexlee

sorelhorse said:


> the first one was DEFINITLY troping. the was a 4 beat. its so ugly
> 
> the second one wasnt as bad, but still not the greatest.


Looks like you quoted my post just as I was editing! You forum-watcher, you (though, I'm not one to talk)!

Anyways, sometimes it's very subtle to pick up on - an inexperienced eye wouldn't see it. On the warmblood I rode, I could feel it right away in the saddle, but it was just barely notable in the video we took.


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## farmpony84

I couldn't see spyders video for some reason. Here is one, not a good video but you can see it.


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## dressagexlee

farmpony84 said:


> I couldn't see spyders video for some reason. Here is one, not a good video but you can see it.
> YouTube - Every Chips Dream- AQHA Western Pleasure Mare For Sale


Definitely. If you cover up the horse's front end with your hand, the back end looks like a trot. Vice-versa and it's a lope. Magic!


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## Jillyann

Oh my goodness! That looks so ugly!! It seriously looks like the horse is lame!


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## Spyder

farmpony84 said:


> I couldn't see spyders video for some reason. Here is one, not a good video but you can see it.
> YouTube - Every Chips Dream- AQHA Western Pleasure Mare For Sale


Good one FP. A lot of people don't want videos of their horse 4 beating anymore.

This is 4 beat to the extreme and mine showed how easily one lope can slip into the other.


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## sorelhorse

farmpony84 said:


> I couldn't see spyders video for some reason. Here is one, not a good video but you can see it.
> YouTube - Every Chips Dream- AQHA Western Pleasure Mare For Sale


oh gosh! That was horrible!! yuck. its not a lope at all.
if you want to see spiders, go to youtube, then type in the title. comes right up. And i actually thought the horse in that vid of spiders wasnt troping at all.


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## Alwaysbehind

farmpony84 said:


> Here is one, not a good video but you can see it.


Troping starts at about 1:25 if anyone wants to skip all the jogging.




sorelhorse said:


> Its like a trope.
> so it looks like they are trotting in front and loping in back.


I think you have that backwards. Loping in front and trotting behind.


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## farmpony84

Riley will break into that when he gets confused. It is SO hard to sit, it's like this sideways forward jiggley awful bounce. No fun. That too slow lope is hard enough to sit, then to ad that trope... yucky.


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## .Delete.

Very good video farmpony.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sorelhorse

Alwaysbehind said:


> Troping starts at about 1:25 if anyone wants to skip all the jogging.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you have that backwards. Loping in front and trotting behind.


no. i dont have it backwards.


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## Alwaysbehind

sorelhorse said:


> no. i dont have it backwards.


So you say troping is them loping behind and trotting in the front? That is what you posted.


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## Jillyann

Troping is loping in front, trotting behind. atleast thats what my horse does when she gets lazy.


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## Alwaysbehind

Jillyann said:


> Troping is loping in front, trotting behind.


I think that most of us agree on this. 

Except Sorelhorse. :wink: But she is the WP expert around here.

(Isn't sorrel spelled with two Rs?)


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## Jillyann

Alwaysbehind said:


> I think that most of us agree on this.
> 
> Except Sorelhorse. :wink: But she is the WP expert around here.
> 
> (Isn't sorrel spelled with two Rs?)



I believe so! Sorrel. :lol:


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## .Delete.

I always have heard troping is trotting in the frontend and loping in the back. And 4beating is trotting in the hind and loping in the front.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind

Maybe that is the technicality. I have always heard Troping, 4-beating, and any other slang term for it all used interchangeably.


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## mls

Jillyann said:


> Troping is loping in front, trotting behind.


Yes - so the "loping" lead appears correct when the judge looks.


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## Spyder

sorelhorse said:


> no. i dont have it backwards.


Troping - A 4-beat lope or canter: the hind legs go down first, then the fronts...so for the left lead it would be right hind, left hind, right front, left front, with very little or no moment of suspension in between. A four-beat lope looks very flat and the horse will not have much bob to its head either. A good lope will have a round horse and be 3-beat.


Dictionary of Horse Terms Including Some Racing Terms


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## Jillyann

Spyder said:


> Troping - A 4-beat lope or canter: the hind legs go down first, then the fronts...so for the left lead it would be right hind, left hind, right front, left front, with very little or no moment of suspension in between. A four-beat lope looks very flat and the horse will not have much bob to its head either. A good lope will have a round horse and be 3-beat.
> 
> 
> Dictionary of Horse Terms Including Some Racing Terms



So we are correct when we say loping in the front, and trotting in the back, right??


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## sorelhorse

Alwaysbehind said:


> I think that most of us agree on this.
> 
> Except Sorelhorse. :wink: But she is the WP expert around here.
> 
> (Isn't sorrel spelled with two Rs?)


it can vary. I know when my horse gets lazy he tries to trot in the front end. If you think about it it makes sense-the horse gets lazy and doesnt want to collect, therfore falling on the front end and not being able to lift the shoulder. that is why they trot in front.
and yes sorrel is spelled with two rs, just like spider is spelled with an i.


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## tempest

Okay, so the new western pleasure lope is the four beat and the three beat is the more natural easier to sit one that you will see more of in English classes. Thanks that's cleared everything up a lot for me. Thank you everyone.


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## GottaRide

tempest said:


> Okay, so the new western pleasure lope is the four beat and the three beat is the more natural easier to sit one that you will see more of in English classes. Thanks that's cleared everything up a lot for me. Thank you everyone.


 
Umm, no.
The "new" western lope a three beat gait. It's the way it is now & the way is always should have been. This is the correct way:





 
I wouldn't say that it is easier to sit either, because those really good WP horses have a lot of kick & lift when they are really using themselves correctly.

The bad lope that no one wants & doesn't win looks like this:


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## mls

GottaRide said:


> Umm, no.
> The "new" western lope a three beat gait. It's the way it is now & the way is always should have been.


Yes - 3 beat is not 'new' - it is simply correct. The four beat was trained into the horses to slow them down.


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## PaintsPwn

It's amazing how we've made some WP horses gated, isn't it??

Cowboy can fall into the trope really easily, simply because he tries too hard to go slow sometimes and he gets sloppy. It's the most uncomfortable thing in the world to sit.


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## StylishK

I haven't read all the post but I find people also misdiagnois a 4 beat sometimes too.

I've notice quite a few people believe the hind legs should land on the ground at the same time. Which a really good loper generally does. 

However the key to detecting a true 4 beat is looking at the foot falls. The inside hind and outside front should land on the ground at the same time and the inside front is a seperate beat as well as the outside hind. 

When a horse isn't landing at the same time in the hind end its not a case of 4 beating all the time, just sometimes a horse that can't do it or lack cadence or impulsion.

A horse who 4 beats, at least at AQHA shows will be DQ'd. 4 beating is incorrect.


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## payette

Just my opinion~ both the three beat and four beat versions of the "lope" posted in the videos on this thread just look yucky to me. I'm not a WP person, and it's probably been 20 years since I even watched a WP class, but geez, I really don't see the appeal. I mean, I guess it's sort of spiffy to be able to train a horse to lope like it was in a race against a tortise, and trying not to win, but I don't realy understand the point. I think both the "ideal" WP lope and the 4 beat are grotesque. ~My 2 cents worth


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## StylishK

Being on a great one is truely one of the most amazing feelings I've ever felt. Having a horse that collected, with that much impulsion and going that slow is a very cool feeling. But thats my opinion. Each to their own =)


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## trailhorserider

Gawd the trope makes them look head-bobbing lame. I would never buy a horse that lopes like that for fear they aren't sound. :-(

As far as collection and impulsion, I like this:






Now THAT'S what I call collection with impulsion.


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## payette

StylishK said:


> Being on a great one is truely one of the most amazing feelings I've ever felt. Having a horse that collected, with that much impulsion and going that slow is a very cool feeling. But thats my opinion. Each to their own =)


I definitely like the sound of that! I just don't see much impulsion in the video clips I watched. I see slow, but no real lightness. Even the horses that are loping right look plodding on the front ends. I've ridden a couple horses that occasionally would be super prancy and collected at times in their canter, and it was a really cool feeling to be going as slow as a brisk walk, but at the same time so lively.


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## Deerly

payette said:


> I definitely like the sound of that! I just don't see much impulsion in the video clips I watched. I see slow, but no real lightness. Even the horses that are loping right look plodding on the front ends. I've ridden a couple horses that occasionally would be super prancy and collected at times in their canter, and it was a really cool feeling to be going as slow as a brisk walk, but at the same time so lively.


Yeah I never got this. Honest to god I always thought it was a very deliberate "dominating" and "spirit breaking" look that was intentionally being created from some subset of American culture that felt the need to have submissive, passive lifeless horses. Head down, very slow movement, sometimes shuffling and always looking submissive and subservient. 

I'm curious, for those of you who appreciate western pleasure, is this intentional or is there some other cultural significance for the type of motion/gaits? SO not trying to open up a can of worms but everything has a purpose and this is one I've never understood and seems SO far removed from the working horses or all other western disciplines where speed and agility and useful / hardiness seem to be stressed.


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## StylishK

When you are on a very natural horse, that low head set is natural...

Think of it this way, when you're riding a dressage horse, who has lots of collection and impulsion, when you give them rein where does their head go? Generally down (such as the free rein walk), many many dressage horse will also work at a trot and canter at lower head level if you allow them to have that rein.

Headset isn't made on a real natural horse, when I get my pleasure horses (even my reiners) engaged, using themselves, and lifting their shoulders their headset falls where it naturally wants to fall. 

On my pleasure horses they have a lower neck set, at least thats what most breed for, and thus a lower headset comes naturally when you work them. 

Look at our guy. This was in February, he was 23 months old, had less than a month of handling other than a bit as a weanling. He has no muscle and he still has a lower headset. I should get an updated video, but he carries his head even lower than that now...





 
We have done absolutely NO work asking him to put his head down in anyway, this is how he likes to carry himself. And as he gains more strength he holds it lower. 

So to sum my point up, the head falls where it natural falls when you get a horse using themselves properly. Some WP horses are level, some of just below level and some are a touch above it.

I like my pleasure horses level or just below it. I don't like the ones that drag their nose in the dirt either. But those ones tend to be WAY on the forehand too. 

These horses have tons of life, just becacuse their head is down doesn't mean a lot has been done to break their spirit. It's just natural for them based on how they are built.


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## Deerly

I'm sorry but you just don't see mustangs or wild / natural / pastured horses looking anything like the videos that were posted.

Edit: I also know that WP horses (including the ones with the peanut-pusher thing going on) are not abused or maltreated and it takes a lot of dedication to the sport to become really good - just like any other equestrian discipline.

My question was just wondering where the inspiration came from and what the "purpose" or goal of that sort of posture and very slow gait came from because it contrasts so sharply with almost every other western sport.

I know you wouldn't have to break the spirit of a horse to get that sort of carriage but I was just wondering if that was the intended LOOK or if it was inspired by the sheer dominating of a large creature and making them slow and subservient or... if not what is?


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## StylishK

I don't see the sharp contrast in the head in neck? Have you looked at reiners.

Originally they liked a lower headset because on the ranch a horse with his head in the air will catch the rope when roping cattle. Now WP has made it lower but still. 

I don't think its to make the animal look dominated. 

Like I said before and will continue saying, that low headset isn't pushed or put there. It falls there naturally for the horse. 

And yes my pastured WP horse lopes around with his head that low and goes that slow. Yes he can run, but he can also lope very slowl.


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## Deerly

Seriously? Your horse walks around the pasture like this? And that's natural for him? I don't mean sniffing / eating but as a natural I want to move forward at a trot or a canter this is what i want my face to be doing? 

I would totally understand a level neckline which gives the appearance of being low and how that would be natural for some horses but some of the videos that were posted on this thread... well I would laugh out loud if I saw a horse ambling around the pasture like that.










There's nothing wrong with that if that's what you want to do but it's certainly not "just how horses are" because if it was no one would think twice about it which clearly (looking at all the locked boards on the subject) they do.

Maybe I'm just a stubborn brat but I still say it's a very intentional frame and I just want to know why / the culture and inspiration behind it. The day I see a wild / natural horse moving around like that when attempting to go forward somewhere is the day I'll stop asking.


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## StylishK

In that picture that head is too low. It's not natural.


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## PaintsPwn

I was like "Who the h3ll is riding Cowboy?" ... That's not cowboy XDD

The head is too low in that pic, but it also looks like she's correcting him.


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## farmpony84

Mine will jog and lope in the field with his neck pretty much level. Maybe an inch above the withers, but not much. It's how his neck attaches to his body though. My other QH will carry his head much higher but he's built more like a ranch horse...

Deerly, 

To answer your question, originally the idea was to show that your horse was a pleasure to ride. The slower trot or jog is definitely smoother than a more go-ey trot. I have a feeling that one of the big greats entered the arena and was just a tad bit slower than everyone else, and carried his head just a teensy bit lower... then another great came along, slower and lower... and you know how it go's... 

These days they are raising them back up and pushing them forward again. At this last weekends show there were a lot of complaints from the "big boys" because the judges were DQing people for low head carriage. They also were placing the "broken lope" much lower than the faster horses. A horse that lapped everyone actually placed really high. He was collected and pretty, but moving at a comfortable pace rather than that "hop halt hop" gait. (that's what it reminds me of, one gentle stride and then a pause... then another gentle stride and a pause)....

Anyway, the changes are coming, they just take a long time to come down the pipes...


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## GottaRide

People also have to remember that "forward motion" does not mean "fast". A horse can still be 4 beating and go faster than the rest of the horses in the pen. What's missing when a horse goes around 4 beating is the lift that is needed for the horse to have pretty flowing movement.


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