# Where did all the honest people/horses go?



## Kozak (Sep 12, 2011)

potucek said:


> Recently I have noticed the quality of people and horses to go down. It all started when my older brother decided to get back into horses. This was a big deal for him and he wanted to take the time into finding the right horse for him. He found a horse that he loved which was a 4 yr old palomino gelding. The only problem was that it was close to spring planting and he would be too busy to spend time with this horse. So he sent it to a trainer to get more hours on him and to work on some reining. 2 weeks before we went to pick him up the trainer called and said they had bad news, his horse cracked some ribs rough housing with other horses. So we picked him up. had several different vets looks at him and finally cleared him for riding. We took our time, doing a bunch of ground work and he seemed just like he normally was. Until we tried to ride him. Ive never seen a horse buck so hard in my life. We called the trainer and she said she had no idea, then later lied to my dad saying the horse was crazy to begin with and my brother never should have bought him. We ended up selling him as a bucking horse.
> 
> Then, my father who is 65, decided now that he was retired he wanted to get a good trail horse and live the life on the back of a horse. Went to look at this horse that they swore was bomb proof. He rode it around and decided to go with it, since it was 14 yr old and was a been there done that horse. He brought it home and the first night he rode it he did ok. Tried to take off right when he got on but my dad got him under control. The next night he rode him, my dad got on and the horse bolted and my dad couldn't get him back in control and ended up bailing and going to the ER with a broken nose, and fractured cheek bone and eye socket. While he was gone my brother got on him and he did the same thing, by brother was trying to put him in a circle and the horse wasn't listening and ended up breaking a rein. and he had to bail too. He got back on and the horse immediately started bucking and threw him off and bucked all the way back to the yard.
> 
> Sorry about this novel but it is just so frustrating to have this happen to good people. I mean we do our research before we buy but lately it seems like people will do whatever to make a sale instead of taking their time to make a good honest horse.


To be fair, and completely honest, most things of quality are no longer taken seriously. Most things, but not all.

I was looking at saddles not too long ago at a local tack shop and noticed something very disturbing. Most of them were build shoddily by un-dedicated craftsmen. The leather was actually on the verge of ripping off with just a tug on one.

Same goes for horses. There just isn't any dedication towards preserving the best of the best. It's more about money, for some people, than genuine love for the occupation.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

I'm so sorry this happened! Are you going to sell the 2nd horse with full disclosure? I hope your dad doesn't try to get back on him.

This is one of my biggest fears when the day comes and I buy a horse. That is why I would like an off farm lease, maybe 30 days if I could. I know sellers hate this and I understand. At the very least, I plan on finding a reputable barn and have a couple of people with me. And even then people get screwed! 

You didn't get these horses from traders did you? I know some people have a lot of luck with traders but it's just too risky for me.
All buyers ask is that the horse is what they are paying for and is as described. It's a shame so many people are taken advantage of. It's not just losing money. A buyer can lose their life. I don't know how sellers live with themselves.

I asked my trainer about the word "bombproof" and she never heard of it. I ride English and maybe it's not an English term? I wonder if the word bombproof itself is maybe a sign that a seller is dishonest? 

I don't know as much about purchasing horses as I've never owned one yet, but I know from working for a vet and doing rescue, there are certain words backyard breeders will use when selling dogs. And as soon as you see those words, you know it's a backyard breeder who is breeding for bucks and not quality. 

Are there any terms that could tip off a buyer that a seller is being less than honest? 

Don't mean to hijack your thread. When I buy a horse next year, I want a good trail horse like your dad. I know a lot of people think that trail horses are just dead head and dime a dozen, but IME, a good, solid trail horse is every bit as valuable as any other discipline. It may seem there are lot of good trail horses by ads, but experience says otherwise. Finding a good honest horse that isn't a spooker, bolter, bucker on the trail is actually harder to find than one would think.

I hope your dad isn't turned off to riding. I can totally see a man in his 60's just wanting to hang out and trail ride. He has every right to do that. I hope he's okay and that he finds his perfect horse.


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## corporate pride (Feb 23, 2010)

for the second horse i would demand my money back! if they don't give it back and take the horse, take them for all they are worth in court!

this is sooo dangerous! if you want advice contact john O'Leary from Horse problems australia web site, he has taken many people to court with similar cases and won. he might be able to give you some advice but i wouldn't take that laying down!

the horse industry has become really dishonest and it's not just where you are, it's everywhere, money money money is all these people care about! and it's not on! stand up for yourselves and demand better! i had a horse that deliberatly double barrelled me in the face, i got rid of him FULL DISCLOSURE and i got an email from some old bitty that was on the council of a club i'm a member of, going off at me saying that i was irresponsible for trying to find a home for a 6yo horse with full disclosure, i guess she would rather me sell him for top dollar saying he is bomb proof.

your dad's first clue should have been that the seller said the horse was bomb proof, i'm sorry but there is no such thing. for your brother i would be looking into the trainer more and the seller and find out who is lying.

i fell for your family, i really do, i have been a victim myself. there are honest people out there, they can be hard to find at times though.

good luck xxx


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Sorry for your bad experience! People trying to rip-off others are always out there. It was a case 20 years ago, it's a case now, and I'm positive will be a case 20 years from now. Sounds like you were very unlucky. 

I'd suggest next time you shop to find a trainer with recommendations and ask if he/she can go with you on horse shopping or help to find a horse (most trainers in my area have no problem with it).


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

In fairness, people have been trying to pawn dodgy horses off on each other since horses have been bought and sold. "Horse-dealer" or "horse-trader" have been euphemisms for skeezy characters with shady business dealings for several centuries now. 

I've heard many stories like yours, most frequently from inexperienced horsepeople. The horse-market isn't for the novice. Always best to take an experienced friend or trainer if you're not sure what you're looking at.


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

Another problem is a horse that behaves very well in the first couple of weeks then it hits the fan. That I find is the horse trying to be the boss and I have news for it. Time fixed that one.

Bomb proof, no such thing. All horses will loose the plot given the right conditions. My personal preference is for a younger horse, at least what tricks they pull are new and not years of learned behaviour. 

We to have our sharks in the industry and well done those that disclose problems the horse may have. The good horses are there, you may have to go to a breder or well known trainer to find it, and that will equal dollars.

As for trail or what I call trekking horses. My belief is the temperament is important but like a teenager it changes as it ages. (sorry younger readers you can pay me back later) Experence is what the horse is exposed to over time and is ongoing, so Bomb Proof can not be, as each outing presents different conditions which the horse learns to cope with. Some never do. 

My avatar Stella was a horse used by a riding school where they went single file and each horse knew its place. When I took her out of what she was comfortable with she lost it, and became a different horse than what I first rode and brought. Her confidence gone. And mine going
A rising 8 year old with some dressage training but to be used for trekking and that is a special horse just as in any other discipline. 

I am not steeling this thread but it is a subject most of us have had some misfortune to deal with. For my part Stella is being retrained the first hurdle to get over is to get her to like me again. Mares !!! I jest, she knows who butters the bread, she is just playing hard to get.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

OP, I'm very sorry you've gotten to see the ugly side of the horse world. Unfortunately there have been shady sellers (and buyers) in the horse world since the existence of the horse market and they will always be out there. 

I couldn't count the number of deals gone wrong stories I've heard over the years.
There are still good, honest folks out there though. 

As already said, it's always a great idea to take an experienced horse person along when checking out any horse. I've been at this horse thing my whole life (was born into it) and I still take an extra pair of trained eyes anytime I'm looking at a potential buy and depending on the price tag I will also have my farrier ride along and the vet has on occasion as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

I am curious to know what you paid for the horses. Price can sound great but be a huge red flag.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Sorry for your bad experience! People trying to rip-off others are always out there. It was a case 20 years ago, it's a case now, and I'm positive will be a case 20 years from now. Sounds like you were very unlucky.


So true.

Horse trader was a bad word long before used car salesman was.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

The trainer didnt seem dishonest, he told you the horse had broke ribs, maybe he didnt take propper care of the horses, and I would never board my horse in a group setting with other horses I dont own. You ever broke a rib ? it hurts for a long long time, and I didnt have anyone on my back.
I also would never buy a horse outright without doing a free lease at my house first. I am honest and not gonna sell a crazy horse. If I have to trust the seller isnt lying to me about the condition of the horse, then they can trust me to send them the money, bring back the horse, or tell em to come get it. 
Also, no matter how great the horse is or was, never get on a new purchase without a few days of basic ground work. If nothing else that will give time for any drugs to wear off. Yep had it happen brought home a drugged horse, that was totally insane 2 days later. That was the one I told owner to come get, cause horse wouldnt load, he got snotty with me about gas and I bluffed told him I had a blood sample in the refridgerator I was gonna send to the lab and if It came back with drugs I was gonna take his house. He shut up real quick and left, led me to believe I had guessed right.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

I would never "free lease" a horse I was selling. How can I be sure you know what you are doing with my horse? Way too many risks involved with that scenario. Nevermind the fact that many horses "disappear" that way. Come to my barn and ride the horse as much as you want, but it isn't leaving my property until paid in full.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

I somewhat agree with Sahara - I am very, very reluctant to give a horse out on trial. I actually did do it with two seperate horses, and both were bought the horse after the trial. In this circumstance they'd come out a few times to ride and I (vaguely) knew them through people at agistment places, pony club etc, and I liked them a lot, knew where they were keeping the horse and could check up on it. Still, very risky, and I don't do it for all horses or people who come out looking. Buying a horse - I'd love the luxury of trialing every one but that would cut out 95% of the horses because the owners would never consent. 

Bombproof is a very common term (in Australia at least) and is commonly used especially to describe children's horses, but also trail horses etc. No one is actually implying they are "bomb-proof" but everyone knows it means very quiet. It is by no means a dodgy term. I'd use it, riding schools use it, pony clubs use it. I wouldn't be remotely put off if someone used this term, in fact it may show that the owner is familiar with "horse lingo". 

Bad luck about your horses. It can be very tricky because while there is a distinct possibility the previous owner lied, it also could just be the horse. Some horses don't cope with change well. I've seen a horse practically murderous with a rider when kept with a large herd, but sweet and calm when kept with a limited amount of horses. I've seen horses great in an arena and totally freak out in a new place. Just a few months ago I watched an owner ride and lunge his horse, I got on it and it took off bucking immediately and bolted.

My advice for future horses is go out multiple times to visit the horse. Ride in an arena and in a paddock and try and take them on a little trail. Ensure you are the one to catch and saddle them, get multiple people to ride them.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

My first Rule of Thumb:

*If it has a heart and pumps blood?? It's unpredictable.* *There is NO SUCH THING as bombproof* and people should not even be allowed to use that term.

I have been on a horse since I was two; started going to auctions with my grandpap and breaking them when I was 12.

I am so sorry this happened but it has been going on since the beginning of time. It is a sad testimony that the ethics and integrity of some people has only gotten worse over the years.

I saw this on Inside Edition a few weeks back, so Googled the original story. How disgusting is THIS:evil:

News - INSIDE EDITION Investigates Horse Selling Scam - InsideEdition.com

I thought I saved the actual FBI article on this but, as usual, I can't find anything when I want to:?

My four horses are broke to death - so broke and so gentle that folks have asked if either of the younger ones might be for sale. My kind reply is they are broke to death and bombproof (there's that word) because I keep them that way.

One has bad attitude and would run right over a new horse owner, the other one has big spook factors when he goes out by himself and likes to lip-nip for which he gets continually corrected. How far would these two broke-to-death safe horses last in an environment where nobody has any experience?

There are more problem horses in this world than there aren't. They got that way by being mis-handled either by a well-intending novice owner that has no one to guide them (and I mean physically touching the horse), or someone has either been rough with them or just flat-out abused them.

Then they get sold or given away, someone "re-schools" them for the sole purpose of making money and doesn't care who the horse goes to, so it ends up in the same situation it came from, only with different owners. 

No wonder there are so many nut cases horses waiting to stomp the next person that looks at them.

Those horses that are truly truly safe for an inexperienced rider are few and far between and finding someone ethical to help that inexperienced rider can be even more rare.

Shame on the horse traders who prey on these folks. When I've gone to look at a horse the Traders I knew that were trying to sell as a family horse, they would say "oh you don't want that horse, it's got issues" hrmph - imagine that:shock:


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Everybody here should be reading/responding to THIS THREAD! It took DH and me years to find replacements for my aging, then dying excellent bomb-proof--and they really were--equine members of our family, well into their 20's. We bought/sold at auction 4 horses and 1 mule that were highly UNDERtrained. I'm not looking to blame any trainers/sellers for these unfinished animals. 2 that I looked at tried to buck me off, 1 succeeded and I thank the Lord that I had the good sense to try him out without stirrups, or else I would have been dragged, and not riding today.
People new to horses TODAY do not understand the amount of hours it really takes to properly train a horse--We are talking about thousands of hours of training. Often really good trainers break in horses well because it is their labor of love for a breed, or other reasons. I don't think these people get back what they give.
They are, and always have been, hacks that don't know what they're doing, and there are re-trainers who can ride a scared horse because they bully him/her, but if you can't/won't/don't know how to bully same horse, the horse won't respect you and won't let you ride him/her.
Bleeding hearts discourage people from *appropriately disciplining* your horse quickly and correctly. If you do NOT discipline your horse, he/she WILL develop bad and dangerous habits, and even good horses left without training can develop bad and dangerous habits. Think about your assumably good dog who starts nosing at the dinner table, then steals your steak later on when you're not looking. Would you let this behavior continue? No. Would you beat the snot out of him? No, you probably would grab the steak, smack him on the rear with a "no, bad dog!", crate him during dinner for a good month, and use a sharp "no" whenever he comes near the table with food on it. It's the same thing with your horse. He/she is NOT your child, but he/she is the beta to your alpha and is comfortable when you provide leadership and expect good behavior ALL OF THE TIME.
The other aspect to our current "bad horse" dilemma is that the Internet (or computers) and gaming have replaced a lot of time that we all used to spend hanging around the barn and our horses.
It doesn't have to be this way. I have a friend who just sold a 3 yo filly (from a mare that she bought in foal but didn't know) with perfect manners. The whole family gentled her, and breaking her to saddle was a breeze because she had been handled SO MUCH. The fact that she is a Belgian is inconsequential, but it just shows that size is irrelevant to training. **TOTAL sigh**


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## dee (Jul 30, 2009)

Don't label all horse traders as bad news. We had one friend that was a dyed in the wool horse trader, and would make as much off of a horse as he could...BUT...he never lied about a horse. If he said a horse was good for a beginner, it was the truth - but he never claimed a horse was bomb-proof. Some horses he had were great for adult beginners, but some of those he wouldn't put a child on. A good kid's horse and a good beginner's horse may not be the same thing.

I'm not sure where you are located, but if you or your family are still in the market for a horse, you might want to develop some contacts in your local "horse world." Around here, that would be in the local riding or round up clubs. There are also some trail riding groups in our area. If I were in the market for a riding horse, that's where I would start. At least then you probably wouldn't be purchasing a horse from a total stranger. Even if _you_ didn't know the seller, you would know someone who does, and that tends to keep people a little more honest.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Thanks, Dee, I DO have a lot of contacts. You know how it is--NOBODY is gonna sell their really good horses. I probably looked at over 20 horses in the space of 3 years, and I thought I had screened them before going to look. I ended up buying one gelding from a reputable breeder and I got my 5 yo QH from a local rescue. I had a good chance to try him as a 4yo and had them test him before I went home to think about him for several days before I adopted him. I asked them to ride him, pick up his feet, lunge him, and load him in their trailer, in the dark. He showed their great training and his good personaility. He's a great horse and has settled into a very calm 5 yo.
I just think that any novice needs to be VERY CAREFUL. I also think, considering this Depression that we are in, it wouldn't hurt someone who is short on funds to lease out their horse to a riding academy. There is NOTHING like hours under saddle with multiple riders to really season a horse who needs more time under saddle. Bad hands and poor cues really don't hurt the horse. THIS used to be the precursor to "retraining." NOW, retraining is too often trying to make a horse rideable. 
I ALWAYS had good rides on my lesson horses, and I owned all of them. DH and I took our horses on lots of riding vacations, and I felt safe letting my preadolescent daughters ride alone bc I KNEW my horses wouldn't rear, buck or run away with them. If I had one horse that MIGHT do such a thing, I rode him on these trips.


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## dee (Jul 30, 2009)

I don't know, Corporal. Around here, people are selling their really good horses, and only keeping the outstanding ones because they can't afford to feed the all. Sometimes you can get a really nice horse someone is selling just because they want to "upgrade" to a more challenging or exciting horse. People sell their kid's first horses because they are ready for one that is more highly trained or faster. Those horses would be great for a beginner.

Daughter bought a cute little mare a while back. She had ridden the mare several times and just loved her. I had some misgivings, but daughter is an adult and had made up her mind. Horse was great at first, but after a few weeks, she went nutso - absolutely crazy - and no one could do anything with her. Daughter thought it was becuase the mare had previously been in a very abusive situation (true story) but I'm of the opinion that it's just really bad attitude. Either way, she's too much for daughter to handle, and no one can ride her. I wouldn't sell that horse to my worst enemy.

Luckily, we have a neighbor who specializes in rehabbing "bad" horses. He agrees with me that it's bad attitude (vet has already given her a clean bill of health - it's not pain). I have a bet with my daughter that after three days with our neighbor, he'll be riding her around and she'll be just as calm as she can be. I can't wait until he has a spot open up for that little mare!

As for leasing horses out to a riding academy, there aren't many around here - and most of them are unloading horses as fast as they can. Our economy is so bad people can't afford lessons or boarding fees. Almost all of the horses that are run through our local auctions are going to kill buyers - even really good, well broke horses are going for slaughter.


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## Ridehorses99 (Dec 23, 2009)

I can tell you that the one big piece of advice I got when I bought my first horse over 10 years ago was, "Don't trust anyone in the horse business." If I had a nickle for everyone who told me that, I probably could have paid for my horse !!
Anyway, dishonest people are everywhere....always have been, but there are also honest people everywhere. Sometimes, it's just hard to sift through them. I am so sorry you had a couple of bad experiences with buying horses. I think the bad economy has pushed some of the borderline dishonest people completely to the dishonest side of the fence, but there are still some good people out there who are selling good horses. I also think that a lot of trainers aren't putting all the time into a horse right now because they know they can't get their money's worth back out of them, which puts more untrained horses on the market.
My best advice for buying a horse.....
1. Be patient. There are a lot of good horses out there.
2. Don't buy the first horse you see.
3. Never let emotion make your buying decision.
4. Always make the owner ride the horse first before you do. If the horse is semi-crazy, you will see the hesitation in their eyes.
5. See and ride the horse on multiple occasions - announced and un-announced.
6. Always, always have the horse vet checked before you purchase.
7. If the owner has sold horses in the past, ask for references and contact a previous buyer.

I have been extremely fortunate that both of my horses have turned out to be incredible animals, but I have always taken a lot of time before I buy to make sure what I buy is worth my time.


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## dee (Jul 30, 2009)

And remember - whatever you do - *don't do what I did!*

My two most recent acquisitions were purchased sight unseen. I knew absolutely nothing about the horses, other than their owner was moving out of state and couldn't take them with her. She was going to leave them with the property and HOPE someone would take care of them.

The first time I saw the horses was at the seller's property, and I had already paid for them. All I knew was that she claimed they were broke to ride. My daughte rode them both, and they did okay. The little paint (now deceased, but that's another story) didn't have any buck in him, but he also didn't know much. Not broke in my opinion, but he'd had a saddle on him a few times. I could live with that.

The mare (my avatar) was another story all together. She did fine for the daughter, but when the seller climbed aboard, the mare pitched a bucking fit I'd only seen previously in rodeos. Seller flew off of the mare head over hind side. Fortunately, there were no serious injuries, but I wondered what I'd gotten myself into. Seller claimed that "only a _man_ could handle that mare."

Picked up the horses on July 11, 2009. Took us over four hours to load that crazy mare - seller was terrified of her, but wouldn't let us take over and get the mare in the trailer - she didn't want the mare "bullied." Huh. Fortunately, the little gelding loaded right up after we finally got the mare in the trailer.

After we got the horses home, the mare turned out to be a pushy, nasty tempered bit**. Took me a couple of months, but we came to an understanding. Now she's a really nice horse - not a kids horse, because she's a bit stubborn and ****y at times, but I don't have any qualms about riding her, and I'm not a very good rider at all. What I _am,_ is a good herd leader, and my little herd does respect me...


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Dee, You JUST reminded me why I've only owned 3 mares over the years! The one I have now is a gem. I had a 14'0hh QH-type mare a few years ago that had a timer. After about 30 minutes time was up and she wanted you off. I tried schooling her, but I finally sent her to my Amish trainer/farrier thinking I could pay him for the inevitable fight. She spun him so fast that he still says, "she tried to kill me!"
This depression is really making it difficult for both the horses and the owners. Plus, our state (IL) used to have horse slaughter, and unwanted horses were transported there in a day. Now, they all get shipped for several days to who-really-knows-where.
I guess I'm thinking that I should apply my own advice (for finding my place) to finding a new horse. I looked for it for 12 years, and I just kept my radar up. I had specifics:
--real house, not trailer, 3 or more bedrooms
--barn or storage building
--shelter or stalls
--fencing
--not too far from town
I also talked it up, and I found my place bc the daughter-in-law of the sellers told me my (current) property had just gone on the market that day. I contacted my real estate agent, and we saw it the next day, and put a "hold" on it.
I really like CA's advice more and more--to take ANY of these horses back to day one training for respect. HOWEVER, if a new horse bites or strikes I am not sure that a newbie could fix that. =/


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

I totally understand how a seller wouldn't want to do an off farm lease. But as a buyer, how do we know if the seller is honest? Or even if the seller is being honest, the only way for a buyer to truly know if the horse is going to work is having it at their own house. So maybe the seller is being honest about how the horse behaves at their farm. But that doesn't mean he's going to behave that way at another farm .

I'd never ask for a free lease. I was thinking when the time comes of asking the seller if I put 50% down, if they'd let me do at least a 14 day trial. If the horse isn't working for me, I'd be willing to pay something for the seller's trouble. Even a few hundred bucks. That would be worth it to me to not have a crazy nutjob horse on my property that now I have to sell. 

I hope that wouldn't be too insulting for a seller if I asked that. 
I don't know, there has to be some happy medium for buyers and sellers. 

I feel like the internet has made it a lot harder for shady sellers though and that's a good thing. It's a shame because I'm sure there are good, honest traders out there who are just making a living. But because of the few bad apples, I'd be afraid to purchase from a trader.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

"My four horses are broke to death - so broke and so gentle that folks have asked if either of the younger ones might be for sale. My kind reply is they are broke to death and bombproof (there's that word) because I keep them that way."
Can we highlight and underline and then italicize this sentence? Horses are usually very smart and very good at reading people, and most the ones I've had dealings with, and most certainly the ones I've owned, will be perfect angels for someone who they know won't take any grief but will take the p*ss if they know they can get away with it. A horse who appears "bombproof" at his home barn, with his owners he knows and respects, is more than likely to test the boundaries with his new owners, see if he should afford them the same respect. Sure, horse-sellers lie or exaggerate and sell horses with issues as horses without issues, but plenty of horses who are well-trained also behave differently at a new place with new people, especially when those new people are novices. 

I would not sell my horse as a "beginner" horse, even though I have given beginners lessons on her and she is a rock-solid schoolmaster under those circumstances. Even if clueless person is on her back, mom is still "in charge" and she knows her job. I maintain her good manners through constant and consistent "dialogue" with her that other people can't even see, it's that subtle. 

I have no doubt that if a novice handled her on a regular basis, or worse, were her only handler, she would, after a while, be extremely pushy and difficult and novice owner would be posting here moaning that the allegedly "bombproof" horse they were sold is now taking off with them. 

There are horses out there who will take care of beginners, who won't completely take the p*ss but I don't think they're as common as the horse who will push the novice around and try to do what it wants, unless it is being regularly schooled by a more experienced horseperson.

It's the catch-22 of owning your first horse when you're still fairly green. To handle a horse well, you need experience, and to get experience, you need to handle a lot of horses!
​


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## sabowin (May 8, 2010)

I've seen and heard the advice to visit a potential horse unannounced when horse shopping. That might work okay if the horse is boarded somewhere, but every horse I've looked at in my search so far is kept at the owner's home, and usually at the back of the property, so it's not like you can just drive by on the road and see the horse over the fence. Do people actually do that--just show up to someone's house unannounced? What if they're not there, are there people who will still just get the horse out and take a spin around the yard? I wouldn't even want to show up unannounced when they are home, though I suppose it is a good idea. Hmm...what do people actually DO, not just say to do?


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

That would be trespassing, and that's why you are quesy about it. I have not ever gotten on a horse that the owner didn't ride first, and that has helped me. Once a prospective horse's owner went bronco with them aboard and I didn't get hurt. It's like this: there are Soooo many horses out there and many really good ones for sale. If you miss a good one, shrug your shoulders and move on. DON'T fall in love with anything that you see. We here ALL adore our best horses, but I really don't think my best horse is any better than somebody else's best horse, and there is a current horse surplus due to the Depression and other reasons. Dee just posted that there are a lot of possible candidates near her---do you live anywhere close? With digital connections today it really opens up possibilities. =D


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Wow, so sorry to hear about your experiences. Sometimes people just plain suck. I have seen a few adds for horses I had leased in the past and my jaw dropped when I read the incredibly misleading glowing ads about them. People just want their money and who cares who gets hurt. It's just not right.

If you do decide to try to find another horse, feel free to post any adds you see. Lots of people here a very good at reading between the lines and finding the bull. I actually bought the one horse who's owner did disclose a problem. I figured at least that's honest. Anytime I hear an owner blowing tulips and buttercups up my you know what about how great their horse is, I run the other way. There just is no perfect horse.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

sabowin said:


> I've seen and heard the advice to visit a potential horse unannounced when horse shopping. That might work okay if the horse is boarded somewhere, but every horse I've looked at in my search so far is kept at the owner's home, and usually at the back of the property, so it's not like you can just drive by on the road and see the horse over the fence. Do people actually do that--just show up to someone's house unannounced? What if they're not there, are there people who will still just get the horse out and take a spin around the yard? I wouldn't even want to show up unannounced when they are home, though I suppose it is a good idea. Hmm...what do people actually DO, not just say to do?


I don't show up unannounced necessarily but will when I contact a seller I say "I have a very hectic schedule, will you be home in the afternoon on such and such day?" and then show up a half hour before noon.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

When I was looking, I always said that I had a horse to look at before theirs, showed up 30 minutes early or so to make sure the horse wasn't being lunged to death or drugged before my arrival, and told a little white lie that I got done with the previous seller sooner than I expected and was running early.


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## brackenbramley (May 29, 2011)

OP Im afraid worldwide you have to be so careful when looking for a horse, how is your dad? whats happening with that horse? All i can offer you is what i do when looking for a horse.

*Best bet buy a horse you know or know the owners and have seen it in action over a decent period of time ( this is not always possible)
* Find an " expert" someone you trust who is aware of your capabilities and will be honest with you to go with you.
* NEVER EVER get on any animal without the owners riding it first
*Go back as many times as you can if they are genuine they will not mind i rode one of my old horses for 3 months before i bought it
*Dont always give the sellers alot of notice to avoid doping etc
*Be aware of how the horses environment would differ with you ie a horse kept and ridden it in company may be unable to cope living alone and riding out alone
* I would advise getting a horse vetted with a blood test
* If the potential is there to have the horse on loan first go for it (believe it or not sometimes happens)
*never ever be pressured into a quick sale, you could make a mistake
*Do everything you want to do with that horse to ensure its sutible for your needs

Sure ill think of something really obvious when i press send! Would love to know your current situation with it all, hope your all ok. And i know someone mentioned before even a genuine horse will often try its luck a few weeks in x


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## Fellpony (Sep 9, 2011)

Its just as bad here in the UK. Someone sold a quite nasty shetland stallion as a lead rien to some little childrens parent  All they care about is the money. One lady was sold a hack turned out to have very severe sweet itch the horse was bought in the winter.

When i buy horses I want to do everything with them I would do if they were mine, go catch it up in the field, bring it in,tie it up, groom it,tack it up. you get a feel for a horse by how it re acts, never be the first one on it. if its safe the owner will get on it.

If you want the horse to be good on the road see it hacked out in traffic, if you want it for jumping see it jumped. Take someone else along with you 2 pairs of eyes is better than 1.

you wouldn't rush into buying anything else so take your time buying your horse too.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

Sahara said:


> I would never "free lease" a horse I was selling. How can I be sure you know what you are doing with my horse? Way too many risks involved with that scenario. Nevermind the fact that many horses "disappear" that way. Come to my barn and ride the horse as much as you want, but it isn't leaving my property until paid in full.


Then I wouldnt be buying your horse, I have come to realize that in most things not just horses, Those that are concerned the most about getting ripped off, tend to be the ones most likely to be crooked themselves.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

Joe4d said:


> Then I wouldnt be buying your horse, I have come to realize that in most things not just horses, Those that are concerned the most about getting ripped off, tend to be the ones most likely to be crooked themselves.


To me I'm not so worried about someone "ripping me off". The horse world is pretty tiny you can go off and sell horses from under people that easily. 

I'm more worried about the unpredictability of horses. Of injuries sustained while under the care of the leaser. Of course I'd blame them, it might not really be their fault but I'd blame them. How could I know that an injury or sickness didn't arise out of their neglect/ignorance? I always sell my horses as they are, I've never had a really quiet horse and I tell buyers as such, there is no guarantee that they act the way I say they do. My horse may have never bucked or bolted with me, but that doesn't mean that he won't in a different situation. If someone gets injured while trialing out my horse I don't want to be in a situation where I am liable.

Not to mention tack, I always have saddles that fit very well. I wouldn't want to send my horse out for a few weeks just to get him back with saddle sores, which is really quite likely, not many people get a saddle fitted for a trial. And I wouldn't want to send a horse and my saddle for a trail.

They are the major arguments for me about not trialling horses. You may never buy a horse without trial, but have you sold many horses?


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Highly aware owners *may* be able to tell that their angel of a horse will not be such an angel with a novice, but short of being psychic, it's impossible to know for sure what exactly your horse is going to do at a new place, with new people. Still, I would not send one away to a prospective new owner's barn for a "trial period" -- too risky, for at least all the reasons Saskia said. 

At the end of the day, you're dealing with the fact that a lot of people who buy horses nowadays haven't grown up with them, don't know them, and as such are likely to have a steep learning curve with any horse they find. Even experienced horsepeople usually have to go through a "boundary-setting" period with a new horse (the only horse I've owned who pretty much never gave me any sh*t in the first few months I owned it was, ironically, my completely unbroke three-year old).


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

Joe4d said:


> Then I wouldnt be buying your horse, I have come to realize that in most things not just horses, Those that are concerned the most about getting ripped off, tend to be the ones most likely to be crooked themselves.


 People who take the necessary precautions to protect themselves and their investments sound like intelligent, reasonable folks to me.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

I know if one honest horse person in NE Tx! Lady X told me everything about my gelding, good and bad, while I was looking at him. She even demonstrated some of his quirkiness. In spite of his 'faults' I bought him anyway and glad that I did. The lady who delivered him to me even commented that she doesn't know how Lady X sells so many horses because she's too honest!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I once showed up a half hour early to look at a horse and was turned away. So I left and never went back. It left a bad taste in my mouth, like I was the one that did something wrong. So although I think it is good advice, I don't do that anymore. 

I bought a couple dangerous horses once (a pair that couldn't be separated which I was too dumb to see the warning signs) and after I sold them (and lost a ton of money and had major fear issues) I was in the market for a horse again and was really paranoid and scared. I found out about a horse for sale when I went into a saddle shop to post a "horse wanted" ad and the saddle maker told me he was selling his horse and he would be perfect for me. (I was looking for a trail horse and this horse had been packed, hunted off of, roped off of, etc.). I was able to get the horse on a 2 week trail period and knew I had to have him after one week! That was my Mustang gelding. Best horse I have EVER owned.

So after that I figured a trial period was the way to go, right? Well, I heard about a Fox Trotter mare selling for a song ($500) and went to see her. It was kind of a horse-trader type of place and although I could ride the horse there, there would be no trial period. The ONLY reason I bought the horse was that I had an experienced friend with me who promised to buy the horse if I didn't want her. So I took a chance and bought the horse and she has turned out great for me (and was also pregnant, but that is a whole 'nuther story). But anyway, that was really, really, really risky, and I wouldn't have done it without the friend saying she would buy the horse from me if it didn't work out. 

But yeah, horse traders as a group area really shifty. I ran into the guy that sold me my mare a while back and he was telling me how much he hated her because after they bought her (at auction) she would have fits and throw herself down while being ridden. Of course that story never came out when I was looking to buy the horse, only after I've owned her almost two years, lol! But the mare is great. Not mare-ish at all. She turned out to be a really nice horse for me for $500. But talk about risky!

We paid $2000 for the Mustang (he wouldn't take a penny less) and you know what, that is the best $2000 I've ever spent. That horse is worth that much and more all day long. :mrgreen:

If you can, get a trial period. I think the best way to do that is have a network of horse friends. Then when a friend-of-a-friend sells a horse, you are more likely to get a trial period because they know you, at least indirectly. And they are more likely to be honest, because they are friends with a friend of yours. You can't always find a horse for sale that way, but in an ideal world, I think that is one of the best ways to buy a horse.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

You make a contract in writing, with proper ID, It isnt that hard, lots of way to do it, I give you a check for the purchase price, you agree not to cash it for a week if I dont bring horse back.
Last one I bought, the contract read, I will bring back horse in 2 weeks or send money, If horse wont load owner agrees to come get, ( horse wouldnt load leaving sellers)
If horse gets sick its sellers responsibility, if horse get injured it is buyers responsibilty.
It isnt that complicated, do your contract in writing, and both parties get ID info, like I said , If that isnt good enough for a seller and they are overly concerned with loosing out I am gonna assume they themselves are crooked and have something to hide and go elsewhere.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I apologize for not reading all the response so I may be repeating what has already been said.
I question if the sellers or horses were really dishonest.
The Op's brother sent the 4 year old for training. Most trainers do not put a horse in training in with others, I don't. It's bad business. That point aside, I wonder if the brother knew the level of training the horse returned with? Did he work with the trainer to see exactly how much the horse knew & how to ride it? Was the tack the same & well fitted? 
Horses only know what they know, a new rider needs to adjust to the horse's level of training. There is a period of getting used to one another & that should start with the basics & advance from there. Did the brother ask or expect too much to soon?
The same goes for the father's horse. I believe most horses react to what we do.
I often tell people- "I can guarantee this horse is trained, I can't guarantee you can ride it."


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## ElizabethClem (Aug 21, 2011)

When I see this with good people being taken advantage of, I feel horrible about it and It makes me want to start working with horses and showing more honesty to selling a horse I saw a very good thing with the 7 rules to it. Which a lot of people should really follow. 


1. Be patient. There are a lot of good horses out there.
2. Don't buy the first horse you see.
3. Never let emotion make your buying decision.
4. Always make the owner ride the horse first before you do. If the horse is semi-crazy, you will see the hesitation in their eyes.
5. See and ride the horse on multiple occasions - announced and un-announced.
6. Always, always have the horse vet checked before you purchase.
7. If the owner has sold horses in the past, ask for references and contact a previous buyer.

Now- just cause I agree to preaching this I will openly admit, I didn't follow it.. at all. I know that's horrible but I was also VERY VERY lucky, as some of you guys seen in my gelding thread. I can tell you exactly how I didn't follow them, before Mayder there was Gracie and Lola, both would have got them in a heart beat but was owned by a greedy owner who wouldn't sell them for the price of there quality. Mayder was actually the next best option and for 600 mom didn't know better got him. And for rule 3 I was upset about not mostly getting Lola and jealous of 9 year old girls getting 2-3 show horses and I went 10 years without having one. Mayder I have seen his old owner on him all the time so that one we actually followed. We however did not have vet check nor had him be seen by a vet until the spring shots (he was fine neg. coggins everything all good, no lameness issues either) and worst of all I only rode him once before we got him. 


But as you see I gotlucky with him and after seeing stories like this it really does sadden me and make me want to be MUCH more careful when getting another horse. Right now I'm hoping to start training a fjord and maybe buy him in the future if possible because obviously if I trained him I'll know what he's like. 

honestly hun, I really don't want you to give up yet using this thread and our forum as an example there are still good and nice horse people out there more then welcome to helping you if we can.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Joe4d said:


> You make a contract in writing, with proper ID, It isnt that hard, lots of way to do it, I give you a check for the purchase price, you agree not to cash it for a week if I dont bring horse back.
> Last one I bought, the contract read, I will bring back horse in 2 weeks or send money, If horse wont load owner agrees to come get, ( horse wouldnt load leaving sellers)
> If horse gets sick its sellers responsibility, if horse get injured it is buyers responsibilty.
> It isnt that complicated, do your contract in writing, and both parties get ID info, like I said , If that isnt good enough for a seller and they are overly concerned with loosing out I am gonna assume they themselves are crooked and have something to hide and go elsewhere.


Yes, a contract is the way to go.
I had a trial period on a horse after riding her a couple of times at her place. The seller came & checked out my place, called references & was allowed to stop out any time unannounced, which she did.
It worked out well for all involved. However, the seller was most concerned about the horse going to a good home & it being a good match. She wasn't just looking to 'get rid' of the horse.
I did buy the horse after making a price adjustment due to the deep seated thrush the horse came with & I had to treat & the fact that the horse needed much more training than originally thought.
Personally I would never let one of mine go on a trial but I never sell any so that's a moot point.


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## jannette (Aug 24, 2011)

on the 2nd horse i have to wonder if the bad behavior wasnt something that he tried on all new riders or atleast ones he felt he could test....it's tick if u will???? and possably after the rider "won" he would return to a good horse???? i only ask because after i sent mine to trainer before i evan rode her i new she had some "ticks" and that's why previous owner sold her...never tried it with trainer at all....but with me oh ya...by advice from the most knowledgable people on this sight i got professional help for both of us....(shoulda done that to begin with) she is a great horse will do anything for me now....2mths ago she'd spin around on trail and try to go back.. anywho just a thaught.....bomb proof is something they through around here alot however i beleive that all horses have a little bomb in them somewhere lol so i dont let it hold any weight....


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Joe4d said:


> You make a contract in writing, with proper ID, It isnt that hard, lots of way to do it, I give you a check for the purchase price, you agree not to cash it for a week if I dont bring horse back.
> Last one I bought, the contract read, I will bring back horse in 2 weeks or send money, If horse wont load owner agrees to come get, ( horse wouldnt load leaving sellers)
> If horse gets sick its sellers responsibility, if horse get injured it is buyers responsibilty.
> It isnt that complicated, do your contract in writing, and both parties get ID info, like I said , If that isnt good enough for a seller and they are overly concerned with loosing out I am gonna assume they themselves are crooked and have something to hide and go elsewhere.


Proper ID and a cheque doesn't mean squat. ID can be forged, cheques can be bad. 
The horse gets sick and it's the seller's responsibility? Why on Earth would I (the "seller" in this hypothetical situation) agree to that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

Its the sellers responsibility because the horse was already sick or had a disease when picked up, If it gets injured its something that happened while I had it. 
Trust is a two way street, You dont want to trust a buyer one iota, but expect them to trust you 100% that your not a liar and hiding something about the horse. I have bought several horses for my self and a coupe friends, and no seller I have dealt with has ever had a problem wit the terms I have discussed here. 
My advice if you find a seller that does have issues with a trial period find another horse and seller. To many great horses and great people out there to waste time and effort with shysters.


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## jannette (Aug 24, 2011)

thesilverspear said:


> "My four horses are broke to death - so broke and so gentle that folks have asked if either of the younger ones might be for sale. My kind reply is they are broke to death and bombproof (there's that word) because I keep them that way."
> Can we highlight and underline and then italicize this sentence? Horses are usually very smart and very good at reading people, and most the ones I've had dealings with, and most certainly the ones I've owned, will be perfect angels for someone who they know won't take any grief but will take the p*ss if they know they can get away with it. A horse who appears "bombproof" at his home barn, with his owners he knows and respects, is more than likely to test the boundaries with his new owners, see if he should afford them the same respect. Sure, horse-sellers lie or exaggerate and sell horses with issues as horses without issues, but plenty of horses who are well-trained also behave differently at a new place with new people, especially when those new people are novices. ​
> 
> 
> ...


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## BCtazzie (Jun 7, 2011)

in the past I've seen horses doped for "test rides" by sellers. I've had many "bad" horses over the year, chronic rearer, bolter and saddle bronc. 

I work with them, I don't care how long it has taken me, I keep at it until I feel they safe for a new home. I disclosure full past. "this horse was a cronic rearer, hasn't reared undersaddle or in hand for 12 months" 
Not telling people the full truth about an animal isn't fair on them or the animal. I always offer, if anything comes up, to to come and help them. for free. 

When i brake horses in it's one cost until the horse is broke, be it 6 weeks or god forbid 12 months. I'm not sending anything out that will tarnish my name.


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## jannette (Aug 24, 2011)

bctazzie that's good to hear. it seems most trainers over here, or self proclaimed trainers i should say, do $$$by month and what u get is what u get when they come home...if not "broke" to your riding capabilities your welcome to pay for another month ;(.....


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## BCtazzie (Jun 7, 2011)

Thanks Janette. I wasn't smart enough to think of that pricing system years ago.

I've seen horses up here in Canada go off for 2g's a month and come back no different. I'm starting to take horses on here slowly. Wish I could charge that amount and be half hearted about it. But, I would not forgive myself if I sent a horse back that wasn't ready and it hurt someone. 

Anyone out there has a problem horse, I'm willing to take it on at my new fee of 2G's a months. I'll send it home with gold plated plates on and it won't try to kill you any more


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Joe4d said:


> Its the sellers responsibility because the horse was already sick or had a disease when picked up, If it gets injured its something that happened while I had it.
> Trust is a two way street, You dont want to trust a buyer one iota, but expect them to trust you 100% that your not a liar and hiding something about the horse. I have bought several horses for my self and a coupe friends, and no seller I have dealt with has ever had a problem wit the terms I have discussed here.
> My advice if you find a seller that does have issues with a trial period find another horse and seller. To many great horses and great people out there to waste time and effort with shysters.



So if the horse catches something while on the "trial" period at the buyer's barn, the buyer isn't liable? If I were to send a horse out on a trial (unlikely in the first place, as there is just too much that can go wrong, NOT because I'm dishonest) the buyer would be responsible for any illness or injury that the horse develops while in their care. Why on Earth would I be liable for the horse getting sick while in the buyer's care? It doesn't make sense. A horse has the potential to colic or become ill from a million diseases while on a week-long (or more) trial. Why should I be liable for this?
A TON of sellers will not agree to a trial period - and I completely understand why. From the potential of injury or illness to substandard care to goodness knows what else - not to mention the headache of liability and who pays what "if something happens...." Well, I can very well understand not wanting to do a trial. 
Nope, if I'm selling a horse (this is all hypothetical by the way, haha) then the buyer is welcome to come out to see/handle/ride the horse as much as they want, bring a trainer or friend out, do a complete vet check (with bloodwork), but the horse won't go on a trial - UNLESS it's someone I know well or am completely comfortable with. 
Too much can go wrong. Example: Horse pulls a tendon playing in the buyer's field the day after they bring it home for trial - they claim that the horse could have done the same at home, or they claim the horse may not have been sound or any number of excuses/stories, and they refuse to pay for the horse or vet bills. The horse is now unsellable for a spell, has that injury on record, and the owner has to go to court for monies owed, and they aren't guaranteed to win.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

JustDressageIt said:


> So if the horse catches something while on the "trial" period at the buyer's barn, the buyer isn't liable? If I were to send a horse out on a trial (unlikely in the first place, as there is just too much that can go wrong, NOT because I'm dishonest) the buyer would be responsible for any illness or injury that the horse develops while in their care. Why on Earth would I be liable for the horse getting sick while in the buyer's care? It doesn't make sense. A horse has the potential to colic or become ill from a million diseases while on a week-long (or more) trial. Why should I be liable for this?
> A TON of sellers will not agree to a trial period - and I completely understand why. From the potential of injury or illness to substandard care to goodness knows what else - not to mention the headache of liability and who pays what "if something happens...." Well, I can very well understand not wanting to do a trial.
> Nope, if I'm selling a horse (this is all hypothetical by the way, haha) then the buyer is welcome to come out to see/handle/ride the horse as much as they want, bring a trainer or friend out, do a complete vet check (with bloodwork), but the horse won't go on a trial - UNLESS it's someone I know well or am completely comfortable with.
> Too much can go wrong. Example: Horse pulls a tendon playing in the buyer's field the day after they bring it home for trial - they claim that the horse could have done the same at home, or they claim the horse may not have been sound or any number of excuses/stories, and they refuse to pay for the horse or vet bills. The horse is now unsellable for a spell, has that injury on record, and the owner has to go to court for monies owed, and they aren't guaranteed to win.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A trial agreement can state anything both parties agree to. In my case it stated that if the horse got 
sick/injured/died while in my care that made the sale final at a predetermined price. If at the end of the trial I decided not to buy, the seller would pay me for board & training, which is essentially what I was doing. If I decided to buy we could negotiate price.
So, returning a sick or injured horse was not an option. 
There are no standards regarding a contract. It can include anything.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I realize that, but contracts/waivers only go so far, which makes me, personally, leery.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

JustDressageIt said:


> I realize that, but contracts/waivers only go so far, which makes me, personally, leery.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh I know, I don't blame you either. It was a win/win for me. The seller took all the risk. I would never sell a horse on trial but it sure was nice to buy one that way. By the way, the seller offered the trial.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I don't like off farm trials either. It's much too risky and there are a lot of tire kickers out there that would love to "borrow" one for a couple weeks to joy ride for a couple of weeks with no responsibility. Not to mention the risk of contracting something while gone, injury, etc. 

I have done one and it was with people we've had a 20 year working relationship with. Even with knowing them so well they had to have a full PPE done before the horse left with full blood panels & scans that both parties signed off on, paid a good sized deposit, purchased an insurance policy on the horse and if they were to return the horse it had to be vetted again before coming back on my property. 

I will gladly provide buyers with videos & answer any questions they have. They are welcome to come ride at my place or trailer off property with me to test them out as many times as they'd like within reason. I also include a few lessons with the horse if they are a serious buyer. They can use their vet or mine and run the horse through the ringer with testing. Same with having a farrier check out feet. If that isn't sufficient they are welcome to look elsewhere.


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## Prinella (Jul 12, 2011)

The other thing I've heard of as far as trials go, obviously nothing will be 100% jerk proof, is essentially a buyback policy full price is paid so all buyers responsibility. If the match doesn't work out the owner buys horse back for purchase price or an agreed upon lower price (like a deposit) if horse has been devalued, wounds or behavior.


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

My two cents worth. Bomb proof is a saying that is bandied around to describe a horse that is calm under all situations, or leads the buyer to believe such. Not true. It does not matter how well trained your horse is, it will, given the right conditions protect its own life and that rider on its back becomes a predator. the horse will under those conditions dispatch you from the saddle and scarper. 

All animals have a very honed survival instinct including humans We do what ever we need to, to survive. So will the horse.
As for working with the animal to get the quirks out of it. Its continous. 
Horse is a bright animal, with a sence of humour, and can also be likened to a teenager. Always trying it on.


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## jannette (Aug 24, 2011)

i agree stan and like i said earlier....if the rider is not confident and or the horse has no confidence in the rider the will not trust he or she to get them through said situation....making onc "bomb proof" hors with rider a, living "bomb" waiting to explode with rider b....so many people dont take time to bond with their horse before they climb on and expect it to trust... not to say that's what happend in op's case just saying...sorry kinda hi-jacked ya for a sec lol :wink:


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

*Jannette*

Hi jacked No.
I do not profess to be an expert but my falling off and my learning from the horses has made me look at it in a different light and that I surpose has caused me to notice and question the display the horse does at times whether it be a sence of humor or my vivid imagination.

Take for instance, Stella is being taught the one rein stop. Visulise if you will, her head turned and nose on my boot and looking at me. No pressure on the bit. She has the side of her top lip curled. It looks threatening and if you knew Stella and her behaviour one could say she was sending me a message. But it is most likely me seeing what is not there. No doubt I will find out soon.

Horses It's like having a teenager in the house again


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

My recommendation is to take lessons at a reputable stable. Sometimes boarded horses come up for sale and at least there is an opportunity to see how it works out. Continuing with lessons with the new horse usually has the best outcome. When moving a horse to a new place it needs time to adjust, often up to 6 weeks. The horse leaves everything familiar behind and is afraid of all the new, therefore what is seen as bad behaviour is often fearful behaviour.


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

Hi Saddlebag. Don't read to much into my post, but she does sneer at me when in that position.
Stella has been with me now for 11 months and is doing fine. When I say I try to fall off with style it is true I do try. 

I firmly believe it takes months and months for the horse to accept its new owner and home. Savannah took a little over a year to come around and I expect Stella to take longer. Given her past.

As for sending her to a trainer that is not really required as she has had some dressage training. (excuse the spelling) She shows it now and again, however, I would need to also attend the clinic to learn what the trainer taught the horse so I did not screw it up.

Not practicle where I Live so I'll Keep on falling off untill her and I reach an agreement. I pay the bills, she provides the transport.
Just between you and me she is growing on me.


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

*A foot note*

This forum has provided me with a mountain of information I use when with my horse.

Thanks for that, its great to talk to people who care, even if I am in the 15 percent minority being only a man and all.
There stuck on my big boy pants for a moment.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Stan, when we were kids we'd celebrate that we were true riders when we'd come off ten times so I hope your keeping count.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Lol Saddlebag! At my house it was a hundred.


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

Super glue it works a treat
I am keeping count and No I will not divulge the number. Ten when one is a kidd then whats the number when north of, oh, north of 21


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## jannette (Aug 24, 2011)

lol u should still have good bounce north of 21 its north of 31 when you begin to lose the bounce affect...kinda is splat for me now lol....:???:


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

If its a splat for you Jannette. I should not get out of the indentation I make in the ground. But that is why I carry a little extra around the middle. Shock absorber


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

When I bought Monty I actually got him sight unseen. The agreement was that I would have him on two months' trial instead of having to come up and see him as he was 3hr away and seller's schedule was pretty hectic. When he got here he'd freaked out in the truck and injured himself, so he was on paddock rest for a week before I could ride him, and when I did eventually ride him, it was bareback.

It wasn't smart that's for sure!

Seller knows us and had been to ours before, so she knew Monty would go to a good home if all worked out. I'm still not sure why she took the risk of the trial with no payment upfront. She said I could have as long as I wanted to pay him off, which was an EVEN bigger risk on her part! Nevertheless, things are working out and I set up an automatic direct debit so I could never forget to make a payment.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm an artist and in my work we say "good art ain't cheap and cheap art ain't good" this also applies with horses!
Last year I was in a BAD car accident and couldn't continue working on two of my
green horses, we had just moved into a new farm and my daughter was wanting
a pony for christmas. My idea really! So I worked out a trade with some people 
who had a "handicap broke" pony ridden by austistic children!
Perfect, they agreed to take my two PERFECT endurance prospects (1/2arab/QH's) in trade, they swore they were
so excited because they were going to train them for their grandkids who had outgrown the pony. She's the one in my pict! A week later and $2,000 less I had a SEVERELY COPD pony who about died on us, with a cloudy eye going bad by the second and she was riddled with lice!!!!! 
Apparently they had doped her up, bathed her, and when asked about the eye they told me it had always been that way! 
Now I have a $3,000+ 1/2 blind pony with COPD. 
I tried to get my horses back and get compensation for the vet bills but it turns out (crying) they were sold at auction and were purchased by a (crying) meat buyer. I also found out they had purchased the pony for $50 at the same auction house the week before they put out the sale ad. We were still trying to get compensation but the man had a heart attack and is in really bad shape so we dropped everything and chalked it up as life. And stupidity if you want to put
it that way.... 

So from now on, I will only purchase by recommendation from my trainer and fork out top dollar for top dollar horses. You get what you pay for!


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

Flygap. I, on the norm would never advicate an eye for an eye. However after reading what you have been through, and if I had absolute proof they purchased the Pony as you say. I would continue with the court action heart attack or not.

If they are prepared to rip you off like that, whats to say the heart attack is not a ploy to get your sympathy. I'm not hard hearted, but work in an industry where I deal with persons that are void of integrety, and think nothing of doing what you have experenced, and will keep on doing it, because they have found a way of making good money with no consequence to them self. 

They rely on the fact that most folk will not pursue with a damages suit, or a complaint to the police.

The cold hard facts are. They did not give a toss about you when selling you the pony. If you do not take a stand they will go on to do it again, and again. I feel for you and am angered by what you have been put through.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Stan, thanks.
If it was ANY other situation I would! But, I know for sure the man probably won't make it and he is losing his "ranch" !slaughter house! due to medical bills.
It's in bankruptcy.
Normally I would NEVER have traded horses, they were so dear to me, but
I was "certain" they were going to a good home, they even showed me pictures
of children riding Rosie. My daughter loves her, but I'm afraid she won't make
it much longer and has become dangerous with being 1/2 blind. She was gentle.
Anyone else dealing with loss of sight? I need some help 

I just hope this thread/story helps *BUYERS BEWARE!!!*


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## jannette (Aug 24, 2011)

flygap, sooo sorry about your ordeal....unfortunatly i too have learned that little old people in bad health can still rip u off...if they're cons that doesnt change with age just makes it easier to disguise....on the $$$ gets u what u pay for though im still on the fence...we baught my husband a beautifull sorrel mare 2 years ago with papers to prove her worth...she was just a nasty bratt....put her into training and was advised to sell her, that her disposition would never be what we were looking for (layed back, saddle horse) she he said would need 90days +++ ....we sold her and have been told she has joined a local stock contractors up and coming saddle bronc line lol....i got a fraction of what we spent on her back..baught a 4 yr old appy from an acquaintance (also paperded, for what that matters) and paid 200 for her...she is easy keeper, smart, very layed back, good head on her shoulders and is coming along great...so bring your trainer for sure, but dont judge by the $$$ :lol:


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Oh I agree! My BIL bought two mares from a "famous" breeder's auction for
$4,000 each! Both had GREAT papers, 90 days training and had been "well handled" from birth.
YEAH! Got those mares home and the rodeo was on! Couldn't catch
the crazies unless you had them penned and with grain, and forget about easy haltering, they were TERRIBLY head shy!
So off to the trainer's they went. They were so badly started that it took me YEARS to get them settled.
I just meant that now I take my time, purchase horses with great reputations
from their trainers/farriers/vet's/etc. And typically they turn out sane.
I also recently purchased a $450 horse and now have him at the trainers even
though he rode well in the arena, was said to be "well broke, no kick, no buck,
no nonscense!" I didn't listen to my own advice and he's going to cost me $1,450
now! I've also been given a horse that I had for 20 years and my daughter started riding him when she was 2.
So who knows! 

Thanks potucek for starting this thread!


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## dear_summa (Nov 30, 2020)

potucek said:


> Recently I have noticed the quality of people and horses to go down. It all started when my older brother decided to get back into horses. This was a big deal for him and he wanted to take the time into finding the right horse for him. He found a horse that he loved which was a 4 yr old palomino gelding. The only problem was that it was close to spring planting and he would be too busy to spend time with this horse. So he sent it to a trainer to get more hours on him and to work on some reining. 2 weeks before we went to pick him up the trainer called and said they had bad news, his horse cracked some ribs rough housing with other horses. So we picked him up. had several different vets looks at him and finally cleared him for riding. We took our time, doing a bunch of ground work and he seemed just like he normally was. Until we tried to ride him. Ive never seen a horse buck so hard in my life. We called the trainer and she said she had no idea, then later lied to my dad saying the horse was crazy to begin with and my brother never should have bought him. We ended up selling him as a bucking horse.
> 
> Then, my father who is 65, decided now that he was retired he wanted to get a good trail horse and live the life on the back of a horse. Went to look at this horse that they swore was bomb proof. He rode it around and decided to go with it, since it was 14 yr old and was a been there done that horse. He brought it home and the first night he rode it he did ok. Tried to take off right when he got on but my dad got him under control. The next night he rode him, my dad got on and the horse bolted and my dad couldn't get him back in control and ended up bailing and going to the ER with a broken nose, and fractured cheek bone and eye socket. While he was gone my brother got on him and he did the same thing, by brother was trying to put him in a circle and the horse wasn't listening and ended up breaking a rein. and he had to bail too. He got back on and the horse immediately started bucking and threw him off and bucked all the way back to the yard.
> 
> Sorry about this novel but it is just so frustrating to have this happen to good people. I mean we do our research before we buy but lately it seems like people will do whatever to make a sale instead of taking their time to make a good honest horse.


That is just awful. I’m in a very similar situation, though the horse isn’t quite as violent. It’s sad that people will lie and put other people’s lives in danger to make a dollar. I’m glad your dad is okay. Sorry that happened.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Closing because another very old thread.


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