# Double twisted wire bit...



## equiniphile

Personal translation: HARSH HARSH HARSH only used on horses whose trainers want to take shortcuts and not fix the real problem, just use a quick fix by stuffing a piece of practically barbed wire into their mouths >=(

...........Of course, I've been known to be wrong :lol:


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## Kashmere

That just looks horribly painful! >_<


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## MissH

This is JustDressageIt's description of a double twist bit on the sticky at the top of this forum: 

*Double Twisted Offset Wire*








This bit is very very harsh. You have two different mouthpieces protruding up into the palate at once, they both crackerjack on the tongue in different places, then two wires irritate and hurt the horse’s lips to “make it listen.”
Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tac...naffle-english-type-bits-36522/#ixzz0pk1qHzzq



Ugh is all I can say. I agree that this will never fix the issue at hand, only force the horse to "respond"/cave to the pain.
​


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## luvs2ride1979

Twisted wire bits, single or double, should be banned IMO, from every show and riding organization out there. They are a lazy shortcut for a horse that is hard mouthed or has other training issues. I have seen horses with bloody lips at shows before, with trainers dabbing colored cream over the wounds so the judges won't see... It's downright disgusting.

ANY trainer that uses them or recommends them is a sorry excuse for a horse-person IMO, and should be flogged.


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## wild_spot

Twisted wire has no place in a horses mouth, ever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## horsea

Ouch, yeah that's what I though. I guess it's a good thing I have never seen one used then. Thanks for the info guys


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## horsea

luvs2ride1979 said:


> I have seen horses with bloody lips at shows before, with trainers dabbing colored cream over the wounds so the judges won't see... It's downright disgusting.
> 
> ANY trainer that uses them or recommends them is a sorry excuse for a horse-person IMO, and should be flogged.


Oh my goodness! That is just horrible! I don't know how people could say that they love horses and do that to them. It is just wrong  and yes, they should be hit for doing stupid stuff like that.


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## AQHA

I can't believe people sell those let alone use them.:evil:


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## luvs2ride1979

They're all too common in the 2/3yr old "Snaffle Bit" WP classes I have seen, breed and open. Usually in the form of an O-ring with single twisted copper wire, but still just as harsh. They seem to be the bit of choice among many "trainers" I have met on the breed show circuit. Disgusting.


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## kitten_Val

luvs2ride1979 said:


> *They're all too common in the 2/3yr old "Snaffle Bit" WP classes I have seen, breed and open. *


Wow! That's sick!

Although I do remember checking a known local trainer (I was looking for the place to put my horses in training), and I asked what bit he's using. His dad said "snaffle with wire mouthpiece"! Well... They didn't go there... :lol:


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## wild_spot

I tried to buy a new games pony a while ago - A little 12.3h pony who was in a very short tie down and very amped up. I rode her and was sure she would go much better with a nice snaffle and no tie down. I offered them a little lower than their asking price, and they turned me down.

They then turned around and sold her to another girl I know (And don't like) for $1,000 LESS than I had offered. 

I saw her on the pony a few weeks ago and she was back in a short tie down, but now with the added fun of a double offset twisted wire bit.

She definately chose the better home for the pony, don't you think!


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## corinowalk

PHEW and people at my barn think that me riding a curb bit is terrible! They should see THAT puppy!


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## kitten_Val

C'mon, wild_spot, some people are just nuts, you know that!


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## luvs2ride1979

wild_spot said:


> I tried to buy a new games pony a while ago - A little 12.3h pony who was in a very short tie down and very amped up. I rode her and was sure she would go much better with a nice snaffle and no tie down. I offered them a little lower than their asking price, and they turned me down.
> 
> They then turned around and sold her to another girl I know (And don't like) for $1,000 LESS than I had offered.
> 
> I saw her on the pony a few weeks ago and she was back in a short tie down, but now with the added fun of a double offset twisted wire bit.
> 
> She definately chose the better home for the pony, don't you think!


People don't like to be told they're wrong unfortunately...


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## wild_spot

Oh and I forgot, I saw the girl who owned the pony that same weekend, on her new horse, in an equally short tie down with head straight in the air *Headdesk*.



> People don't like to be told they're wrong unfortunately...


Silly thing is, I didn't even mention the way she was ridden or anything about her training. I guess she just though my relaxed, gadget free Bundy was terribly unhappy and from a bad home 

I honestly lose a lot of respect for peple who feel the need to resort to a bit like this to control their horse. The sad thing is the ones that think they should use it are generally the ones who will abuse it - And the ones who could use it properly are those who don't have a a need to!


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## Sunny

Lex, an awesome 22 year old gelding at the barn, is ridden in one by his owner, but with shanks. I ride him alot, and I put him in a thick TT, and the difference is amazing. When I first saw what bit was on his bridle, I almost had a heart attack. And he's such a sweetheart!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kevinshorses

equiniphile said:


> Personal translation: HARSH HARSH HARSH only used on horses whose trainers want to take shortcuts and not fix the real problem, just use a quick fix by stuffing a piece of practically barbed wire into their mouths >=(
> 
> ...........Of course, I've been known to be wrong :lol:


Or perhaps it is used by trainers that took on a horse that the owners had screwed up so badly trying to be the horses buddy that it takes a bit like that to get the horses attention. 

Why does this bit have to be "harsh"? Why does "harsh" have to equal cruel?

I don't own this type of bit but I wouldn't roll my eyes at anyone that did just because of this bit.


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## justsambam08

kevinshorses said:


> Or perhaps it is used by trainers that took on a horse that the owners had screwed up so badly trying to be the horses buddy that it takes a bit like that to get the horses attention.
> 
> Why does this bit have to be "harsh"? Why does "harsh" have to equal cruel?
> 
> I don't own this type of bit but I wouldn't roll my eyes at anyone that did just because of this bit.


While educated and experienced horse people may be able to make something out of that bit, the fact is that most people who use it use it as a short cut--I'm sure with enough digging I could find out your credit card information, but if I shot you in the foot and then held a gun to your head, you'd be a little bit more willing to give it up willingly, wouldn't you? People who also use this bit right off the bat, as kitten_Val recounted, wouldn't be on my top list of trainers either. Why not try a plain old snaffle first, which is like a poke in the ribs, before using that thing, which is like breaking your arm?


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## kevinshorses

I would guess most inexperienced people would be just as afraid of it as the people that have posted thus far in the thread. If used properly there is no reason that this bit has to cause anymore pain than a regular snaffle. You can't design everything to be idiot proof. Some things will always require some skill to use. 

If you think it's so bad then don't use it but there is no need to suggest that someone that does use one is less of a horseman because he/she uses one. If they use it incorrectly then you can judge them but why not wait and see what kind of horse comes out in the end. I know people that ride in expensive rope halters that they call hackamores. They have awful horses and both are terribly unhappy.


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## justsambam08

kevinshorses said:


> I know people that ride in expensive rope halters that they call hackamores. They have awful horses and both are terribly unhappy.


Its so funny that you mention that....a woman at my barn uses a PP "hackamore"--a rope halter with reins attached to it--and her horse is just a bratty spoiled arab boy if their ever was one under saddle--dumped his rider multiple times for silly things, stops and goes when he feels like it, etc. The woman went on vacation and asked the BO's 13 year old to ride her horse for her...she slapped a snaffle in his mouth and BAM, perfect and respectable horse. The woman did not want to use a bit for whatever reasons she may have (although knowing this woman its because she didn't want to hurt him, that horse is like her child) but he turned out pretty good while wearing one.


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## kitten_Val

kevinshorses said:


> I don't own this type of bit but I wouldn't roll my eyes at anyone that did just because of this bit.


When it's absolutely last resort to deal with the horse, then probably yes. But if it's something just "to have more control" (the explanation I got in my case) and used on every horse then I'm sorry, that's NOT a good trainer. 

And I agree with justsambam08, some people just use harsh bits to "control" the horse. Because it runs away, or bucks, or rears, or whatever other training issue in first place. Same thing with those mechanical hackamores and such total beginners are using (because it's "nice and gentle"). The worst thing when you try to comment you get a bad look. So I personally don't even try to comment anymore...


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## luvs2ride1979

Don't encourage Kevin... He's the new "County" for anyone who's been around and remembers him from various forums, lol.


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## kitten_Val

Yeah, I remember "county", he was fun to argue/discuss with though. As well as RD (who is on different forum now).


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## farmpony84

True statement:

*A bit is only as harsh as the hands holding the reins.*


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## Alwaysbehind

I would take being compared to County as a compliment. Smart man who did not mince words just to make people feel better.


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## JustDressageIt

kevinshorses said:


> Or perhaps it is used by trainers that took on a horse that the owners had screwed up so badly trying to be the horses buddy that it takes a bit like that to get the horses attention.
> 
> Why does this bit have to be "harsh"? Why does "harsh" have to equal cruel?
> 
> I don't own this type of bit but I wouldn't roll my eyes at anyone that did just because of this bit.


The twisted wire bit is a lazy man's way of achieving something that a different technique or a little bit more time could accomplish.
I've ridden in a twisted wire bit, under a trainer's advice to "control" my out-of-hand 17.1hh gelding when I was much younger and didn't understand. The thought of it still makes me sick. 


A bit is only as harsh as the hands behind it - TRUE - *except* that you HAVE to remember that when you're riding on contact at all, you've got a couple pounds of pressure on that bit. Any wire or harsher mouthpiece is going to cause discomfort as soon as contact is picked up.


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## BrewCrew

JustDressageIt said:


> you HAVE to remember that when you're riding on contact at all, you've got a couple pounds of pressure on that bit. Any wire or harsher mouthpiece is going to cause discomfort as soon as contact is picked up.


Good point.  Might be off topic a bit, sorry OP, but one of the lessons my kids do occasionally is to 'ride' each other. One will put on the bridle over the top of their head, and squeeze the bit with their hands in front of their chest. The other will ride them, and over exagerate the other's faults (like if the horse-kid usually bounces hands, the rider-kid will bounce loudly, or if the horse-kid yanks sharply to stop, the rider-kid gives a hard yank to stop). This is an amazing tool, and teaches light hands very well. The pressure the bit applies to their hands is very real to them and they remember that when they're in the saddle. When they get sloppy every few months, they do this lesson again.


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## kitten_Val

JustDressageIt said:


> A bit is only as harsh as the hands behind it - TRUE - *except* that you HAVE to remember that when you're riding on contact at all, you've got a couple pounds of pressure on that bit. Any wire or harsher mouthpiece is going to cause discomfort as soon as contact is picked up.


Thank you, JDI! That's exactly the reason why I don't really like the statement. It's probably true on western horses who goes on loose rein most of the time, but I don't think it's all true when you have to keep a contact.


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## luvs2ride1979

(as JDI mentioned) Snaffle bits are made to be ridden with contact on the reins (unless you're riding incorrectly with slack reins in a breed show hunter class...). There is *no way* to be gentle 100% of the time with a twisted wire snaffle bit, single or double, when you're riding with the correct amount of contact with the horse's mouth, period.

Using a twisted wire bit (or a corckscrew bit) is a lazy and uneducated way to put a bandaid on a larger issue.


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## luvs2ride1979

kitten_Val said:


> Yeah, I remember "county", he was fun to argue/discuss with though. As well as RD (who is on different forum now).


Very true. Kevin is more like County's evil twin incarnated, lol. Like County if he had gone all "troll" on us. :shock: County at least had some reason behind much of what he said, if you asked him for an explination.


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## smrobs

I have to agree with Kevin. Though I would likely never use one like the one the OP posted, sometimes it is just impossible to get a horse to respect the bit without teaching them that it _can_ hurt them. On an older horse that had had it's mouth ruined by a stupid rider, sometimes it takes some pain to realign that horse's way of thinking. However, using this as a starter training tool on a young horse is just too much. 

If a trainer can't get what they want from a fresh, young mouth without tearing it up, then there is some serious gaps in their training process.


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## damnedEvans

I agree with Kevin on this one. That bit is not something to not use ever. That bit could be useful sometimes. We have a horse that is very hard mouthed, he was trained as a driving horse and because of poor horsemanship and stupid owner his mouth is ruined. He is so insensible that even with spurs is hard to control him. He is very sweet but he doesn't respect the bit. So in his case I will use such a bit, but only with someone with good hands. I will not put a novice rider on him, or myself. With such a bit you must know what you do, and you must have light hands. And I don't think that you should use this bit often, just for one, two or a couple of days. You need to teach the horse to respect the bit and then you can change this bit with a milder one.


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## wild_spot

I still think it has no place in a horses mouth. If there is a necessity to inflict pain to get a response it IS possible to do so in a simple, SMOOTH, snaffle. The difference is that the smooth bit can also be comfortable for a contact, but the twisted wire cannot.

You only need to know how to use leverage to your advantage and you can make a snaffle as gentle or harsh as you like - I see no need to use twisted wire anything.


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## sarahver

These bits make me shudder. Whether you ride with contact or not, there will be contact at some point otherwise why in the hell put a bit in their mouth in the first place? Even with very gentle hands I fail to see how a bit of this design is necessary. 

I wouldn't want a twisted wire bit in my mouth so I wouldn't put one in my horses mouth either. Bits should not be designed to compensate for poor skills.


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## Sunny

sarahver said:


> Bits should not be designed to compensate for poor skills.


 Bingo.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tymer

I feel like this bit has its place, but no one uses it in the correct place.

I think I recall someone in another thread saying how they needed one on a mule, I believe, because his mouth was so numbed and scarred that he physically COULD NOT FEEL anything else. That is a reason to use this bit.

But I think it's true that most people who could use one properly wouldn't need one in the first place.


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## JustDressageIt

wild_spot said:


> I still think it has no place in a horses mouth. If there is a necessity to inflict pain to get a response it IS possible to do so in a simple, SMOOTH, snaffle. The difference is that the smooth bit can also be comfortable for a contact, but the twisted wire cannot.
> 
> You only need to know how to use leverage to your advantage and you can make a snaffle as gentle or harsh as you like - I see no need to use twisted wire anything.


Agreed.


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## luvs2ride1979

Tymer said:


> I think I recall someone in another thread saying how they needed one on a mule, I believe, because his mouth was so numbed and scarred that he physically COULD NOT FEEL anything else. That is a reason to use this bit.


In that case, you can use a hackamore or other bitless alternative. I know more than a few "hard-mouthed" horses that go quite well in some form of bitless bridle, or comibination bit (that uses a smooth mouth).


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## Starlet

I would never use a bit like that on my horse. We have had to use stronger bits on one of our horses to train a headset, but nothing that extreme. Owie :/!


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## masatisan

As far as I'm concerned, anything with "wire" in the name does not belong in a horses mouth. But as far as twisting goes, there is varying severity.
Like this one:








Even though the "corkscrew" grooves are quite deep, the ridges are quite soft. The texture, I imagine, is not too harsh on the tongue or the lips (the texture doesn't even extend all the way through) and might even encourage the horse to play with it, but still a bit sharper than a smooth bit. To me it seems more balanced as far as using texture in a more gentle way, with good hands, (as opposed to simply causing pain) to perk up a horses responsiveness.

Where as this bit:








Is clearly much sharper. The "twist" is not as extreme as far as the number of grooves or the depth, but the ridges are far sharper, and extend right to the cheek pieces. Because of this the sharp edges would press directly into the corners of the mouth and possibly be painful or damaging if used improperly, more so than others because of the harsh texture. The sharp edge would also grate uncomfortably on the tongue, especially with the action of the joint. 

I know some are opposed to texture altogether, but I think, in the right hands, bits whose texture are not overly harsh, can be helpful. I don't think of it as cheap or corner-cutting. It's the same as rollers or ports or any other doo-dad we introduce.

Here is a website with a large assortment of very cruel and extreme bits, not just wire, but a lot of other things most decent horsemen would never even consider putting into their horses mouth:
Bits

Given the choice, I'd much rather ride with a corkscrew than any of those bits.


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## kitten_Val

masatisan, what a scary website ("bits") you posted! I wonder if they make those bits themselves.


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## kevinshorses

There is a bit on that site to cure every problem no training or skill required. I'm not sure where it started but somehow people got the idea that a barrel racing bit should look like it was made out of spare motorcycle parts.


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## equiniphile

That's disgusting. I don't think the seller knows what the he** they're talking about


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## Britt

We have a mare out here who rides in a single twisted wire bit. I don't ride her often at all, but I've put a regular snaffle on her and rode her and she was extremely strung-out and totally ignoring me and everything. I put the twisted wire single snaffle back on her bridle and rode, and she calmed right down and was really good.

I dislike twisted wire bits, but if that's what the horse is trained to ride in, and is idden in, as long as their not jerked on all the time and stuff, I'm not about to start a fight over a bit.


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## equiniphile

^In the right hands, it's not AS bad as it is in the hands of someone who doesn't respect the fact that the bit is more powerful than them


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## sarahver

Starlet said:


> I would never use a bit like that on my horse. We have had to use stronger bits on one of our horses to train a headset, but nothing that extreme. Owie :/!


Bits should not be used to train 'headset'. This is a very misguided way of thinking and perhaps one of the reason we see such harsh bits and hard mouthed horses.


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## smrobs

Lets make a little something clear that may not have been mentioned before. Those of us who talk of using a twisted bit as a corrective training tool on a horse that has been ruined aren't meaning that it is something to be ridden in for the rest of the horse's life. For me, it is something to be used maybe 2 or 3 times or until the horse realizes that the bit needs to be respected, then they are put back into a smooth mouth for the remainder of training. If you ride a horse in a twisted bit all their life, then they will never have any kind of respect for anything less.


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## MaggiStar

My friends horse is in a twisted wire snaffle as she is a PIG.

She was an overhandled spoilt wagon who decided humans are there to be run over or ignored. Nobody ever broke this train of thought so my friend ended up with a 14yr old horse who may as well not exist when yourtrying to stop.

Due to jaw deformalities however hackamores are not an option so she is attemting to try gain some amount of respect.


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## Tennessee

If I ever had a horse get to the point where he had to have THAT piece of crap in his mouth, I would invest in a bitless bridle or a Noavel headstall.


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## MaggiStar

Some horses dont ride in bitless bridles my friend could never put one on her horses due to jam deformalities she cant have nose pressure.

If that is your only option and in the right hands i odnt see why its such a big deal id rather a light handed person rode in that then a heavy handed in a snaffle both can be damaging in the wrong hands.

Its not always the riders choice to move up in bits but needs must. A few sessions reinstating simple basics to a horse rather then a few years tearing there mouth in snaffles beacuse you cant stop?? I know which id rather choose!


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## Virtual Secret

These bits are extremely harsh and only used as shortcuts by lazy riders and trainers. I also have heard of a horse's tongue getting stick in the middle and being cut off... no clue if that was true or not but that would be awful if that did happen!


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## MacabreMikolaj

A bit is only ever as harsh as the riders hands. I can inflict more damage rough handling a soft snaffle then I could soft handling a twisted wire bit.

You don't know WHY it may be used. And until you're in a situation with a horse that's been spoiled into the ground and running you off a cliff or into a car, maybe it's wise not to pass judgement. It amazes me how quickly people seem to think they "know" how things work and how things are done when they themselves have never actually been put in enough situations to rightly say so.

ANY bit can cause blood in the mouth and sores on the lips.


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## justsambam08

I thought of this thread this weekend when I was in our wood barn tack room and noticed a twisted wire snaffle much like this one except the twist was much slower and the edges were smooth. I even squeezed it in my hand and it pretty much felt like something rolled, there were no sharp edges to catch. I don't know which horse its used on, so I can't say whether or not the bit was overkill.


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## Virtual Secret

MacabreMikolaj said:


> A bit is only ever as harsh as the riders hands. I can inflict more damage rough handling a soft snaffle then I could soft handling a twisted wire bit.
> 
> You don't know WHY it may be used. And until you're in a situation with a horse that's been spoiled into the ground and running you off a cliff or into a car, maybe it's wise not to pass judgement. It amazes me how quickly people seem to think they "know" how things work and how things are done when they themselves have never actually been put in enough situations to rightly say so.
> 
> ANY bit can cause blood in the mouth and sores on the lips.


This is true! Any bit can be SEVERELY harsh, even when it's not meant to in the wrong/rough hands and a harsh bit can be as gentle as a snaffle in the right hands.. but sometimes, these harsher bits, like the double twisted wire are used by people who usually dont know what to do with them and have 'bad' hands in the first place.. or they are actually necessary..for example I have not used this particular bit but a girl at my barn had to use a 'chainsaw bit' on her horse, who was clearly very dangerous for a ride and after he went wonderfully in a plain, single jointed eggbutt. He just needed a wake up call, I guess.


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## corinowalk

MacabreMikolaj said:


> A bit is only ever as harsh as the riders hands. I can inflict more damage rough handling a soft snaffle then I could soft handling a twisted wire bit.
> 
> You don't know WHY it may be used. And until you're in a situation with a horse that's been spoiled into the ground and running you off a cliff or into a car, maybe it's wise not to pass judgement. It amazes me how quickly people seem to think they "know" how things work and how things are done when they themselves have never actually been put in enough situations to rightly say so.
> 
> ANY bit can cause blood in the mouth and sores on the lips.


 
I totally agree...a hack in the wrong hands can do serious damage up to and including cartilege damage and in extreme cases can break some tiny bones in a horses face. Ive witnessed with my eyes a rider slamming on the breaks with a hack and the horse barely being able to breath because the hack interefered with the nasal passage. Im not saying that a severe bit has never been used to short-cut proper training. This isn't a forever and ever bit though. In the right hands, for a short time...this bit could help a caulaused mouthed horse to see the light. As far as the people saying that a horse has bled from the mouth after use...ive seen horses bleed out of their mouth from a simple eggbutt snaffle. Any bit in the wrong hands will cause damage.


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## smrobs

Tennessee said:


> If I ever had a horse get to the point where he had to have THAT piece of crap in his mouth, I would invest in a bitless bridle or a Noavel headstall.


You're right, this bit would not be appropriate for a rider who's _own_ horse had gotten that hard because that means that the rider has bad hands. However, those of us who train horses for others, like me and Kevin, or those who buy horses who need correction are not the ones causing the hard mouth on the horse, we are the ones trying to fix it. Frankly, if you cannot get the respect of the horse in a simple snaffle then you need to find something they will respect and sometimes it ends up being something that can inflict some pain on them. Just putting them in a bitless because they don't respect the bit isn't a solution, it is a band-aid and a gap in training. Those of you who say they would never ever use a twisted bit on any horse must be very fortunate that you have never had a horse that just would not respect the bit, no matter how much groundwork or roundpenning you did, how soft or hard you were with a smooth snaffle. A horse that continues to just lean on you and take the bit away from your hands has to be corrected and sometimes a nice bit just isn't enough, regardless of how good a trainer you are.


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## farmpony84

The thing about these horrible aweful monstrositys they call bits is that they aren't neccessarily created to use on difficult horses. They become a weapon used to fight against horses that are heavy on the forehand and lugging on the reins but they are meant to be used as tools that are controlled by soft hands. The rider is supposed to push the horse forward and guide him with their seats and their legs, using the bit for minimal guidance. If you go to the upper level shows some of those horses are in extremely "harsh" bits (according to many on this thread) yet the rider is riding on the buckle. The reins are softly looping and there is very little contact. 

If you go to a local level show you'll see riders lugging on the horses mouths to steer them and stop them and whatever they need from them, those are the riders that have it ingrained in their minds by trainers that softer is better. It's because their hands are HARSH. 

I'm not defending the use of a harsh bit. I'm only saying that used properly, it's not abuse.


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## Tennessee

smrobs said:


> You're right, this bit would not be appropriate for a rider who's _own_ horse had gotten that hard because that means that the rider has bad hands. However, those of us who train horses for others, like me and Kevin, or those who buy horses who need correction are not the ones causing the hard mouth on the horse, we are the ones trying to fix it. Frankly, if you cannot get the respect of the horse in a simple snaffle then you need to find something they will respect and sometimes it ends up being something that can inflict some pain on them. Just putting them in a bitless because they don't respect the bit isn't a solution, it is a band-aid and a gap in training. Those of you who say they would never ever use a twisted bit on any horse must be very fortunate that you have never had a horse that just would not respect the bit, no matter how much groundwork or roundpenning you did, how soft or hard you were with a smooth snaffle. A horse that continues to just lean on you and take the bit away from your hands has to be corrected and sometimes a nice bit just isn't enough, regardless of how good a trainer you are.



But if the horse has a hard mouth, and the bitless bridle works, then how is that a gap? Why do you HAVE to use a bit on a horse? I have had plenty of rough horses. Heck, my family rescues horses, and we've had some hard mouthed son of a guns. I know I don't have the softest hands in the world (I'm a barrel racer, can ya blame me?), so I don't trust myself with something like that. But eventually it goes from harsh bit to just plan abuse, and it my eyes, anything with the word "wire" in it, and it is going to go in a very sensitive area (aka the mouth of a horse) is abuse. You might as well be taping nails together and calling that a bit.


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## smrobs

There is a fine line between abuse and correction sometimes, but that is where knowledge and experience comes in. If it is a choice between inflicting a little bit of pain to correct a possibly dangerous behavior and having a useless horse because he bolts and you can't stop him, I would inflict pain every time. I don't know how anyone else feels about it but whenever I see a horse for sale that says "Doesn't like the bit but does well in a hackamore", that immediately makes me wonder what other areas of training they skipped just because the horse 'didn't want to' or 'didn't like it'. Maybe I have my expectations set too high but when I am through with a horse, I expect them to ride well in whatever the owner wants them to ride in, whether it be a halter, a snaffle, or a curb. If there is no medical reason why the horse cannot be bitted, then it is a behavioral problem and should be addressed.


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## iridehorses

Because a rider doesn't have the hands, patience, experience, etc. to properly use a wire bit does not make it a bad bit. Have you ever seen the spade bits that the Vaqueros use? Would any of our members who are astonished at the wire bit ever consider the use of a spade? Doubtful. The problem, as I see it, is that it isn't the bit but the way it is marketed to the uninitiated. 

Some of the finest "A" trainers use a bit like that to "brighten" their horse before a show. They'll train with a simple snaffle (as an example), then, just before a show, they may use the wire to tune the horse up. Those people know how to use the bit properly - not as a gimmick but as a tool - and never on a trail but only an arena.


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## kmacdougall

I agree that the bit is only as harsh as the hands that hold it.
I have this theory that says everyone should have to pass a comprehensive exam before being allowed to have children. It has also lead me to the theory that everyone should have a comprehensive long exam and schooling before being allowed to put a bit, be it a rubber covered mullen mouth or a corkscrew twisted wire, into a horse's mouth. Too many people, too confident in their skill, or too unconfident in their horse.


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## MacabreMikolaj

smrobs - Excellent point! The way I think about it, my horse may not always be with me, and I refuse to be the reason some poor sap gets plowed into a fence and breaks his neck four owners down the road because someone forgot to mention the horse "won't go in a bit". It's one thing when it's your own horse, but even then, how do you know for sure you'll always own it?

I've considered going bitless with Zierra - I'm getting another check on her teeth done tomorrow, but she's had them floated a few years ago and the vet said it wasn't the problem. For as long as I can remember, she YANKS on her bit and chews on it constantly. She's always been ridden in the softest snaffles available. I trained with a Dressage coach when Zierra was young and even SHE ran out of ideas to make her stop. I can control her in a snaffle, but it's often not pretty.

Is it my fault? Of course it is - I was 17 when I trained her, and never trained a horse before. And I have to live with that. I've reached the point where I am actually examining a sort of corkscrew or wire snaffle to give her some consequence when she yanks on the bit. I don't have any intention of it becoming her permanant bit, and I've looked at bitless bridles (I can control her/ride her perfectly in a halter) but to me, it's not solving the problem. I get that she hates bites, she always has, and my inexperience didn't help make that any easier because it's just made her harder mouthed due to me trying to get her to stop hauling on me. It's just not an option in my opinion - you need to STOP acting like a cow, and now that I'm older I'm in a position to teach her she can't just waltz around doing as she pleases.


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## trailhorserider

While I personally wouldn't use a twisted wire bit such as these we are talking about, because I ride trails and wouldn't want to take a chance of injuring my horse's tongue if something unpredictable happened, I won't condemn those who do if they are responsible about it (for instance, a respectable trainer). 

What a stronger bit gives you is respect and finesse. It allows you to have a horse you can guide with just light rein contact or even just the drape of the reins. 

If you don't have secure hands yet (and we all were that way in the beginning), then use something mild to protect your horse's mouth while you learn to ride. (What I did was simply stay out of my horse's mouths and rode on a loose rein in the beginning.) It took me years and years to feel comfortable riding two handed with contact. To know I was ready for that step and had soft hands.

And if you get great results in a plain snaffle, then by all means, stick to that. 

But I get irritated by the "snaffle or nothing" mentality because stronger bits do have their place. They are for finesse. Try as I have, I just don't get the respect out of a plain snaffle with my Mustang. Sure, I can ride him in it, but I have to pull on him harder than I want when he dives for grass or we canter, etc. I put him in a curb, and he is super light and responsive and like putty in my hand. I neck rein and ride with a loose rein. 

I could see, how if I always rode in a plain snaffle, my horse would start loosing respect for the bit, and getting a tough mouth because he would learn to ignore my subtler rein signals. Not that I was rough with my hands or he didn't know the signals were there, but because he would learn he could ignore me if he wanted to. He could call my bluff, as it were.

I don't want to have to pull on my horse's mouth. I want him to respect me and comply. Power steering, power brakes. I like the light, collected feeling of a trot and canter with a curb, and at the walk I can totally give him his head. 

Yes, the double twisted wire bit looks wicked and I personally wouldn't use it, but I could see a trainer or someone using it in a responsible manner to keep the horse light and responsive.


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## Strange

iridehorses said:


> Because a rider doesn't have the hands, patience, experience, etc. to properly use a wire bit does not make it a bad bit. Have you ever seen the spade bits that the Vaqueros use? Would any of our members who are astonished at the wire bit ever consider the use of a spade? Doubtful. The problem, as I see it, is that it isn't the bit but the way it is marketed to the uninitiated.
> 
> Some of the finest "A" trainers use a bit like that to "brighten" their horse before a show. They'll train with a simple snaffle (as an example), then, just before a show, they may use the wire to tune the horse up. Those people know how to use the bit properly - not as a gimmick but as a tool - and never on a trail but only an arena.


I agree. Completely. And I've used a double twisted bit before on a horse I worked for a friend as a tune up before we went out to ride cross country. For flatwork and jumping in an arena he works beautifully in a full cheek snaffle, despite occasionally getting strong. So instead of risking his injury or the rider's on cross country, he'd get warmed up in the double twist on the flat right before going out and then get switched back to his full cheek. Of course, as stated, the bit shouldn't be used by someone that isn't extremely soft in the hands and isn't aware constantly of the bit, but used properly it has it's place.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

oh geez...I know that even in the schooling shows I've been to, they are looking for things like this when they do the bit check for dressage...they are totally illegal there. But I know you can jump in whatever.

I agree to the above posts though...in the wrong hands, ANY bit can be harsh, this one especially! Not an inexperienced horseman's bit that is for sure!


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## luvs2ride1979

iridehorses said:


> Some of the finest "A" trainers use a bit like that to "brighten" their horse before a show. They'll train with a simple snaffle (as an example), then, just before a show, they may use the wire to tune the horse up. Those people know how to use the bit properly - not as a gimmick but as a tool - and never on a trail but only an arena.


Yes, you're talking of western horses or breed-show english horses, all of which go around on a loose rein 90% of the time they're in the arena. Most of the trainers with these horses use an o-ring or western style d-ring twisted wire. I don't agree with it and I have seen it improperly used more often than I have seen it properly used, but I can understand the application there.

The OP's bit is a double twisted wire full cheek snaffle with an off-set joint. These types of bits are marketed toward open-show style horses that are ridden on a "tight" rien 95% of the time. This is called "full contact" and it is maintained while riding, unless the rider or judge wants to see a "stretch" or loose rein. Many riders even maintain full contact while the horse is "stopped." 

Because most people I see with twisted wire bits mis-use them or just don't understand their power, I am against their use and sale.


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## iridehorses

luvs2ride1979 said:


> Because most people I see with twisted wire bits mis-use them or just don't understand their power, I am against their use and sale.


Yes ... and that is the problem - misuse and fix all marketing to those who have no business using them.


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## HorseLove4ever

I HATE these. There is this a$$ hole family that i know that "must win everything" so they put this on their 22 year old connemara who is practically dead because she must be "perfect".


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## Allison Finch

Tymer said:


> I feel like this bit has its place, but no one uses it in the correct place.
> 
> I think I recall someone in another thread saying how they needed one on a mule, *I believe, because his mouth was so numbed and scarred that he physically COULD NOT FEEL anything else.* That is a reason to use this bit.
> 
> But I think it's true that most people who could use one properly wouldn't need one in the first place.


 
Quite likely it was in this shape BECAUSE they used a bit like this.

I see no reason to use one, myself. If I have to inflict some pain to get a horse's attention, there are much better ways (and less damaging ones) to do it.

Only as bad as the rider's hands? Please! Simply laying on the horse's bars would be uncomfortable. On contact.....? OUCH!


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## lilkitty90

i didn't ready through all these i just wanted to put in my input. i went to go look at a Dun Grey Quarab filly the other day. she was beautiful and only 3 years old. and they said she had never been ridden. so the guy that owns her decided now would be the time to attempt to break her. first off he twitched the poor girl. (remember this was VERY hard for me to watch for this little filly!) he stuck the twitch in her halter and left it on her the entire time. all the while she's never seen a bridle or a saddle in her life and she is terrified for her life. he used a HUGE heavy saddle on her and then when he brought the bridle out i about melted. because it had a twisted double wire bit.. and she looked in pain and freaked out the whole tiem he rode. and he rode with the twitch on. and all she did was not want to move because she was so confused. poor girl. needless to say i didn't take her home. because it was going to be a trade i'd take her and give them our kid friendly pony and that was NOT happening to a perfectly good pony that can be ridden by kids.


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## smrobs

^^ And that right there is pretty much the whole reason why some bits get the rep they have.


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## payette

I would disagree that they have no place, period. I have a five year old little girl who has a gypsy vanner cross pony. He went through a phase of yanking the reins out of her hands whenever he pleased, and she was just absolutely too little to stop him. So, for about 3 months she rode in a twisted wire snaffle, not as harsh as the one pictured, though. She was closely supervised, and it made a huge difference! She now rides in a plain eggbutt snaffle again, and Smoky listens to her WAY better. That has been my experience, but I am sure such bits are entirely overused/abused, just as are any quick fix gimmicks. . .


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## lilkitty90

yes smrobs i'm completely agree! i was outraged for the poor little quarab. and worst of all he "cowboyed" her just kind of got on without her ever seeing a saddle,bridle, or saddle pad before and was kicking her and smacking her on top of yanking on her mouth with the double twisted wire bit. we left pretty quickly after that.


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## MacabreMikolaj

payette said:


> I would disagree that they have no place, period. I have a five year old little girl who has a gypsy vanner cross pony. He went through a phase of yanking the reins out of her hands whenever he pleased, and she was just absolutely too little to stop him. So, for about 3 months she rode in a twisted wire snaffle, not as harsh as the one pictured, though. She was closely supervised, and it made a huge difference! She now rides in a plain eggbutt snaffle again, and Smoky listens to her WAY better. That has been my experience, but I am sure such bits are entirely overused/abused, just as are any quick fix gimmicks. . .


That is exactly what I intend to use one on Zierra for. I've put her in side reins before, and she will stand in one spot leaning as hard as she can on the bit, mouth gaping. There's simply no way to stop her. I just want something in her mouth briefly to make it not fun to lean on her bit. I would never use something like pictured, personally, I plan to start with just a plain twisted wire bit and see if it helps at all. My goal is to have her going back in her fat french link snaffle once she realizes hauling on her bit isn't fun. I'm not taking her out on the trails to race around with "woah", I'll be schooling her in a ring on a looser contact not a stangle hold. I, personally, don't see the bit pictured having much of a place in a horses mouth, but I can understand the need to get the horses attention once in awhile and focus.


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## kevinshorses

lilkitty90 said:


> worst of all he "cowboyed" her just kind of got on without her ever seeing a saddle,bridle, or saddle pad before and was kicking her and smacking her on top of yanking on her mouth with the double twisted wire bit.


He may have "ignorant wanna-be horse tamered" her but he most certainly did not "cowboy" her. Had he really "cowboyed" her she would have been soft and relaxed and ready to do anything you ask of her. Most of my friends are or have been cowboys and none of them would have done that.


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## JustDressageIt

MacabreMikolaj said:


> That is exactly what I intend to use one on Zierra for. I've put her in side reins before, and she will stand in one spot leaning as hard as she can on the bit, mouth gaping. There's simply no way to stop her. I just want something in her mouth briefly to make it not fun to lean on her bit. I would never use something like pictured, personally, I plan to start with just a plain twisted wire bit and see if it helps at all. My goal is to have her going back in her fat french link snaffle once she realizes hauling on her bit isn't fun. I'm not taking her out on the trails to race around with "woah", I'll be schooling her in a ring on a looser contact not a stangle hold. I, personally, don't see the bit pictured having much of a place in a horses mouth, but I can understand the need to get the horses attention once in awhile and focus.


Please please please don't use sidereins with a wire bit... The idea is for a horse to seek contact, and if it's painful, they won't want to seek the contact again.

~~

I don't have a problem with certain bits when used properly. I have ridden in a (*gasp!*) spade bit in the past, on Dancer when showing western. The thing is, there was little to no contact ever. The problem with severe bits is that as soon as there is contact, you (generalized 'you') are using pain to teach. 
There are very, very few instances that I would condone the use of a textured (ridged) mouthpiece. 
My opinion only, please remember.


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## Vidaloco

If anyone is interested I have found a great deal of help and information on bits in a couple of books. 
2 by Ed Connell that were written many years ago. 
Hackamore Reinsman and Reinsmen of the West-Bridles and Bits. 
The best thing you can do for your horse is to educate yourself about what you are sticking in his mouth and the proper use of it. 
The Myler's also have a very simple, short read book called A Whole Bit Better. Even if you don't like the bits, its has some good basic information. 
All that said, the twisted wire bit has a place. It should be used only by those who know how and why to use it. Those who use it because someone told them to or because they think they will have more power over their horse, need to take a step back and reevaluate there own training and knowledge base.


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## MacabreMikolaj

JustDressageIt - Don't worry, I wouldn't even think of it. This is purely an experiment to see if it helps at all, being ridden on a loose contact in an arena. I have no desire to tear her mouth apart, I just want to her to learn a consequence to yanking. I have seriously tried everything - even my Dressage coach was at a loss. If it's blatantly not working in the first half hour, I'll trash the bit, they're cheap as dirt anyway!


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## JustDressageIt

Okay! When I read that I thought "no, MM would never do that!" But I had to post anyways just in case someone else thought it might be a brilliant idea. 
Best of luck with your poneh


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## lilkitty90

i was just using the term used around here kevin. not really sure what it's known as to everyone. but it's when they get on and beat and knock around expecting the horse to already know what they want. sorry if i offended you in anyway.


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## sorelhorse

what do you think of theese bits?
















what do you think of these spurs?


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## sorelhorse

Im going to be honest-I use these. The first bit only on rare occasions. second one every time i ride western, and the spurs-mostly every time i ride, but i KNOW HOW TO USE THEM! you guys are forgetting the fact that even though the bit/spurs are harsh, its the rider who makes it harsh, and all in all, all bits are harsh if theres and idiot rider on them. I i disagree with the idea of its a lazy persons way ofgetting out of it, because its not. I dont see where you can make these judgements if you have never actually ridden a horse in one of these things.


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## Allison Finch

You are right, I will never ride a horse in a snaffle like that. In my discipline, we ride with contact. THAT makes the difference. No rider could make that bit anything but nasty if ridden on any contact.

The spurs I have no problem with. They are kinder than prince of wales english spurs, IMO.


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## wild_spot

I'm with Alison - I ride in similar spurs and have no issue with that curb - but I ride with a contact and would never put a ridged/twisted mouthpiece in a horses mouth.


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## iridehorses

lilkitty90 said:


> i was just using the term used around here kevin. not really sure what it's known as to everyone. but it's when they get on and beat and knock around expecting the horse to already know what they want. sorry if i offended you in anyway.


Kitty, each time the term has been used in that way, it has been explained that it is an insult to those people who work on ranches or even aspire to it. We have so many members who fit the term "cowboy" in some way that it is very offensive to them (and to me). Just so that you know for the next time.

Call them a "yahoo" or even "moron" next time (LOL).


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## iridehorses

sorelhorse said:


> what do you think of theese bits?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what do you think of these spurs?


ONLY for the highly educated.


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## farmpony84

sorelhorse said:


> Im going to be honest-I use these. The first bit only on rare occasions. second one every time i ride western, and the spurs-mostly every time i ride, but i KNOW HOW TO USE THEM! you guys are forgetting the fact that even though the bit/spurs are harsh, its the rider who makes it harsh, and all in all, all bits are harsh if theres and idiot rider on them. I i disagree with the idea of its a lazy persons way ofgetting out of it, because its not. I dont see where you can make these judgements if you have never actually ridden a horse in one of these things.





Allison Finch said:


> You are right, I will never ride a horse in a snaffle like that. In my discipline, we ride with contact. THAT makes the difference. No rider could make that bit anything but nasty if ridden on any contact.
> The spurs I have no problem with. They are kinder than prince of wales english spurs, IMO.


 
FINALLY! Here we have 2 people that ride in VERY different disciplines, yet they *UNDERSTAND* each others methods and the uses. No attacks, no put-downs. Not even an agree to disagree, just an explanation as to why a bit won't work for one, while it works for another.


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## JustDressageIt

Allison Finch said:


> You are right, I will never ride a horse in a snaffle like that. In my discipline, we ride with contact. *THAT makes the difference. No rider could make that bit anything but nasty if ridden on any contact.*
> 
> The spurs I have no problem with. They are kinder than prince of wales english spurs, IMO.


Haha that's what I've been saying all along.... 
Personally I will never use a twisted mouthpiece ever again; I know what even the lightest contact can do firsthand, unfortunately (the trainer I was with taught me what not to do as well as what to do.) 
The problem with twisted bits is that as soon as you pick up any real contact, you are roughing up the horse's lips.
If you're not riding in contact, then use whatever you'd like - you're not going to be using the bit much anyways. HOWEVER - there are some bits that will inflict pain just by the contact of the headstall holding the bit up - such as a woodscrew bit or a mule bit.


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## lilkitty90

yeah Iridehorses my apologies! i work on a ranch myself and i have several friends who do as well. i definitely didn't mean it as an offensive term! i'll definitely be using moron next time lol


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