# Stocking up...this is getting ridiculous!



## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Depending on where he is stocking up, it could be a joint thing. X rays aren't going to tell you anything. I suggest getting a scan done that detects inflammation in the joints, I don't know how many vets are trained to read them yet, but it's a really cool technology.
Otherwise, I would just cold hose the area and bute. Get the vet to flex him first to rule out joint issues. If he trots lame, or is uncomfortable in the flexions then get a scan done where he shows discomfort. If it ends up being joint swelling then there are a lot of differnet options, but I really caution against steroidal injections, although they provide short term relief, they actually degenerate the joint.
If he flexes fine then continue working him, and cold hose him after riding. Bute is also good because it is an anti-inflammatory. He may have just slipped, or it could be his legs reacting to harder ground.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

it's his back legs...the left more so than the right.
Would cold hosing be good even in the cold and snow?
I had him vet checked when I bought him and he passed the flexation tests with flying colors. 
I don't want to do injections because of the cost...what are the other options if it is a joint issue?


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## wanderlust (Nov 18, 2008)

what is stocking up?


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

swelling of the legs


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

SonnyWimps said:


> it's his back legs...the left more so than the right.
> Would cold hosing be good even in the cold and snow?
> I had him vet checked when I bought him and he passed the flexation tests with flying colors.
> I don't want to do injections because of the cost...what are the other options if it is a joint issue?


If he's flexed with flying colours then it's not his joints (if you want some info about joint maintenance I can still ramble on about that if you want me too. There's also some really good equine veterinary books with awesome info). It could be a thing to do with him adjusting to the hard ground. How much snow is around where you are? Up here we are way below seasonal average. Usually we have 2-3 feet by now and we have not even an inch. If when you bring him in from the field his legs are ice cold then you can probably skip the cold hosing. If they're not and you're worried about the water freezing then picnic ice packs (Ours are Cryo-pack or something) and polos also do a great job. If it's just him reacting to the hard ground then some bute wont hurt as well.
The next thing I'd suspect is cellulitis. Check his legs for ANY scratches or cuts. Also, take his temperature. If his temperature is elevated, even if you can't find any cuts then he should be put on antibiotics right away. If you've noticed him being off his feed, that is another sign. Cellulitis is basically an infection that travels in the fatty subcutaneous layer of the horse's skin and it can be deadly. I have seen a horse die from a scratch about a centimeter long on her hock, the infection got into her joint and spread subcutaneously throughout her entire body. She was gone in a week. That's a really extreme case though. Anyways, picture of cellulitis.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

OH and I forgot it could also be abscesses in his feet. A lot of times legs will swell up, and then an abscess will come out.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

he does have a scab on the side of his right leg by his hock. And seemed to have either scabs or mud on the side of his back cannon bone. I didn't look at it too much. He is not off any of his food, and definately eats more than his share hehe. 

I'll take his temperature when I have someone to give me a hand with it. I'd rather not experiment and see if he will tolerate his temp taken. 

His legs are normally warm to the touch...warmer than the rest of his body, but the head has never gone above his pastern joint on his back legs. 

Also, there is no snow at the moment. The ground is frozen solid from rain and then freezing over night and all day.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Well give him some bute and take his temperature. If the bute takes it down then it's not an infection, and if his temp is elevated then it is an infection.
If there's scabs he could have also pulled what my boy did a few weeks ago, falling into the fence. If the scabs are fresh then I'd take them off and just put some topical antibiotic (polysporin) on it. If they're old then just leave them.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

bute does take the swelling down.....it did the last 3 times he stocked up. I gave him some bute today and I'll check back either tomorrow or sunday. Last time he stocked up he was lame also (was lame on the right leg...same one as the scab) so I think either he got his leg stuck on something or the donkey decided to bite hard.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

YEah it sounds like a mild trauma, and legs are really susceptible to swelling so just keep buting and I would really recommend cold hosing or icing his legs as well. If his temp isn't elevated then just continue on as you have been treating it.
If he starts reacting to the bute then either consider injecting Banamine, or get asprin, crush it up and give it orally.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Sonny here is an excellent article on stocking up. I've had many horses in my lifetime, some were stalled but 90% were turned out 24/7. The only time I had stocking problems were when I had to stall a horse for an illness which meant not a lot of activity as well.

Horse Health Care: Stocking Up (swelling in horse legs) by Cherry Hill

I think you may be overly concerned and he justs needs a change in his regiment and I would NOT keep giving him bute - over dosing can cause ulsers.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

he hasn't been reacting to the bute yet. One of the boarders is being so awesome and letting me use her bute...but I will be getting my own from my vet so I don't have to use hers.

I will ice his legs and see if he's work out of it also


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

iride, I don't want to keep him on bute all the time....yeah I only give bute occasionally for swelling, but not all the time

How would I change his rejiment though?

Edit: The article was good....but he is turned out 24/7....


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

If it is really stocking up and not an ailment or trauma, then exercise. A work out or daily turn out will go a long way. I would consider his feed as well.

I would not be concerned about stocking up and just work him like you didn't see it - it isn't affecting him. If it is something else then it will be worse after a workout and that is a different thing.

Edit: I just saw your edit (lol). Being turned out in a dirt lot so that he has no reason to move around it is the same thing as a standing in a stall. If he is out on pasture and is always moving to forage, then it is not stocking up.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

there is some grass..but not alot, it's been all eaten...well most of it. He's in a 2.5 acre pasture if not more. The hay is put down on one side of the field and teh water is on the opposite end (or close to it)


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Without being able to forage I still go with stocking up. Having the hay in one place and the water in another doesn't do much. Horses don't spend their time walking between hay and water so I still suspect that he is not getting sufficient exercise.

Getting a vet's opinion rather then trial and error on the advise of someone who can't see all conditions or your horse is preferable to satisfy your concern.

The big test is whether the swelling goes down after you've ridden him.


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## steph (Aug 27, 2008)

I agree with iride on all counts: stop giving the bute, see what happens after exercise (I would probably lunge him so you can easily see any lameness issues), and then call the vet if you're really worried. If it doesn't seem to be bothering him, however, I wouldn't worry too much and just ride like usual.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

Steph, surely you know that I'm not going to lunge my horse :wink:
I'll see if the BO or the assistant BO would be willing to take him out every day and do the 7 Games and possibly ride him for a monthly fee (cause she's extremely busy with stuff).


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## county (Nov 29, 2008)

I may have missed it but is he stalled or kept outside? I've had and known horses that stock up when in stalls even just over night. Leave them outside 24/7 and they never do.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

iridehorses said:


> Edit: I just saw your edit (lol). Being turned out in a dirt lot so that he has no reason to move around it is the same thing as a standing in a stall. If he is out on pasture and is always moving to forage, then it is not stocking up.


 county, he is turned out but most likely just stands there since he has no grass to munch on after the hay is gone. To him it's just a big stall.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

> Stocking up is associated with _stall confinement_, _lack of exercise_ and _overfeeding_, specifically grain


 
What is his COMPLETE diet?? I thnk we have went over it before but cant' remember


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

hay, grass, hay hay hay hay, and tiny handfuls of grain normally twice a week (if even that...it's when I go up to see him, but if the goat is out and not locked up, Sonny doesn't get grain because the goat steals the grain). He hardly gets any grain at all...just enough to make him happy to be in a stall while I groom. He's not a stall happy horse so the small ammount of grain turns it into a "happy place" of sorts

Country: He is outside 24/7 in a 2.5 acre pasture. The hay is put on the lower end of the field way on the far side....then the water is up by the gate which is almost to the opposite side of where the hay is. He does have to walk a ways to get water


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

he is most likely lacking in some minerals as well as the amino acids... contrary to what people think our hays and pastures DO NOT provide all the horse needs.....

can you get him a vitamin/mineral supplement and get it to him daily??


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

there is a HUGE mineral block in the pasture.
The BO tests the hay during winter and I believe they started now...and they supplement also.

I do know that the hay is high quality hay..far better than any hay that I've seen any stables around here feed. They grow their own hay on the property and store ir correctly (unlike the last stables that I boarded at hehe)

Peggy, what supplement would you recommend then? I need something that I won't have to mix with grain because I don't want him to be on grain every day. I'm not a fan of grain.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

oh also wanted to mention that the BO gives a Nutrient Tub in the winter


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

the cheapest and easiet route IMO is a ration balancer... average is about 50 cents a day and most of them have GOOD levels of the amino acids which help with muscle developement and repair ...

Pictures would help...


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

pictures of the stocking up?

For the ration balancer....is that a powder? Paste? pelleted?


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

a ration balancer is a pellet and normally has a alfalfa meal or soybean meal base... that is ALL mine get and I have NEVER had one refuse it ... even horses who have never been feed fed before... 

here is pic of two different ones


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

1lb is roughly 2 3/4 measuring cups takes about ten minutes for my gang to eat it .... zero whole grains in it ...most do contain a distillers dried grain of some type but it has the sugars and starches cooked out of it ... NSC is around 16% to 20% in most of them


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## hotreddun (Jun 27, 2008)

It could be arthritis or lack of movement. BUT it could also be an imbalance nutritionally. (Which is a huge barrel of monkeys I know) My horse stocked up for years. He didn't show any signs of pain and so I just let it be. Finally I let him have a three sided shed in constant turn-out and that helped alot. But the big difference came when I actually took him OFF his joint supplement. Turns out that it had sugar in it and I think thats what was causing it.:? I've also been told it could be a salt imbalance. He hasn't been stocked up in over a year.


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## hotreddun (Jun 27, 2008)

I just read back on the last page...you said they had a salt/mineral block in the pasture. Some of those are 99% salt...and not much minerals...especially the ones that are manufactured more for cows. That could be your salt overload.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

Ask the BO what the NSC level was on the hay or IF she even had it tested!! 

just because they are not getting grains the pasture/hay can still be really high 

Mg will help to utilize the sugars in the system more effeicnently


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## moomoo (Feb 21, 2007)

I think it is stocking up, and he needs to move around more, hay to water isn't enough! And I don't think doing the 7 games, even daily, would be enough exercise/movement for him. 
If nobody can ride can you put him on a walker? or spread the hay in piles or something?


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

A mineral block in the field won't help if he's deficient in something--horse's nibble on them occasionally when they're bored, not when 'they need minerals'. That's an old wives tale that has stuck around, HARD, lol. And depending on the quality of hay he's eating (it may look very nice and still not have very much nutrition) he could be missing out on a LOT of nutrients, considering a few handfuls of grain will not contribute at all to the amount of vitamins and minerals he gets (you need to feed what the bag recommends in order to receive all of the nutrition in the feed). With that being said, he's probably missing out on something--a daily vit. would not hurt at all.

And, overdosing of bute does not cause stomach ulcers, really--constant use DOES. Every time you use it, your horse better be in pain--other wise, you are dancing on a very fine line. (aspirin and some painkillers do the same thing in humans). Just a fyi so he doesn't get ulcers.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

--Ahh, forgot. A note on the seven games: Doing them daily would be a bad idea. I'm not sure if you got the second level pack, but that will bore him to death! They actually advise to stop doing the seven games and start thinking of things to DO with them (like fun trailer loading, specific squeeze games, etc.)

I know I'm not a parelli advocate, but I HAVE done it for a very long time.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

mayfieldk said:


> And, overdosing of bute does not cause stomach ulcers, really--constant use DOES. Every time you use it, your horse better be in pain--other wise, you are dancing on a very fine line. (aspirin and some painkillers do the same thing in humans). Just a fyi so he doesn't get ulcers.


 Better said then the way I said it. By overdosing I was thinking too often rather then too much at one time.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

My BO of course knows that, but doing the 7 Games while doing something different with them (like different patterns....with some and waht not) won't get too boring as long as she's mixing it up.

I only do the 7 games on an extremely chilly day to get him warmed up a bit before a ride....but normally I don't do them.

I don't want to keep him on bute constantly....I only use it for swelling or pain (I called vet each time and said give him bute).


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## BrittAnne (Jun 29, 2008)

When my horse stays in a stall over night he will stock up, but when I go to over night horse shows I just polo wrap his legs and then they are fine!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

How old is he?


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

mayfieldk said:


> And, overdosing of bute does not cause stomach ulcers, really--constant use DOES. Every time you use it, your horse better be in pain--other wise, you are dancing on a very fine line. (aspirin and some painkillers do the same thing in humans). Just a fyi so he doesn't get ulcers.


Using bute for a week or so until the inflammation naturally decreases WILL NOT give a horse ulcers, unless it is already prone to them.
The horse might not obviously be in pain, but the reason he is not moving around in his field could be from a small amount of inflammation already in his legs from a trauma, and then it escalates to a full swollen leg.
If you are really worried about the bute causing ulcers, then either use banamine before he is exercised, or give him asprin 1 or 2 times a day.

I highly suggest buting this horse, for a week at most and then if the swelling doesn't go down and stay down then there is another problem.
Speaking from the point of view of someone who has on and off knee and lower back pain, one advil dose when it's hurting makes a world of difference, enough for me to go out and be active and naturally reduce my own inflammation.
Bute in horses is like advil in people, it's not enough to make you oblivious to the pain, it just removes the swelling and allows you to work yourself out of the rest of the pain.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Bute and Banamine are prescription drugs for horses, unlike 'Advil and aspirin' for people. Here's some facts on them per vets and pharmacists:

Bute and Banamine are NSAIDs. Non-stereodial anti-inflamatory drugs. (like aspirin and ibuprofen--Not like advil).

Bute and Banamine deal with inflamation (and like many of you know, other things like fever, etc.) Why? They block prostaglandin synthesis, or they block prostaglandins from being created in the body. Some prostaglandins are from the swollen and inflamed tissue. Other prostaglandins protect the stomach, intestinal lining, and kidneys--using bute and banamine prevents these from being created as well.

So, they very easily can cause stomach and colon ulcers--which is WHY they are perscription, and why you use them in moderation and just when the horse really needs it: like a colic case, or severe trama.

It also can cause kidney problems, but mainly in young/old/sick horses.

No NSAIDs in Foals!!!

Bute is unsafe for ALL horses at high doses for long periods of time (I do agree that a week may be alright for a horse, but you are masking a problem rather then figuring out why he is stocking up).

But is also has a high rate of ulces in the large colon (stomach as well) then other NSAIDs. 

Banamine is a more powerful pain reliever, so in extreme cases, it is a good thing to use! BUT, it can almost completely mask a colic case, which means you could go home thinking your horse is fine and come back and find them in a worse state then when you left.

Again--it is fine in short doses, or just to relieve pain until something can be done--but I personally would not give it to him weekly. Try to find out what is causing the swelling before completely masking it with a painkiller!

(Sorry for the long-winded drug response. My mother's a pharmacist and I was trained to take drugs very seriously. ^^


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

there was a little swelling in the leg, but he worked out of it. I think he's just standing in one place for way too long. He did hae some scabs on the side of his cannon bone (looked at them today...and it was a scab) but it wasn't heated at all

FP, he's 10


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

I do remember in the winter when the mud would freeze, the horses wouldn't move--and then they would stock up. But walking brought them right out of it; if that's the case and he does 'walk out' of the swelling, then I would cease the bute and just walk him a little extra before riding--no trotting until he's loose!


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

mayfieldk said:


> Bute and Banamine are prescription drugs for horses, unlike 'Advil and aspirin' for people. Here's some facts on them per vets and pharmacists:
> 
> Bute and Banamine are NSAIDs. Non-stereodial anti-inflamatory drugs. *(like aspirin and ibuprofen--Not like advil)*.
> 
> ...


Last time I checked hon, Advil is ibuprofen. At least that's what it says on the Advil bottle conveniently sitting right beside me..... 
And I know how bute works. Working in a vet clinic and having two chronically ill horses for 4-5 years gives you a mild amount of knowledge about drugs.
It is impossible to mask a major lameness with bute. It is possible to make the horse more comfortable, prompting it to move around more.
Sonny has said that her horse has some battle wounds. This leads me to believe that the trauma to his leg is enough to cause initial inflammation, causing enough pain so that he is moving around less. Or if the inflammation is from hard ground, then a little bute for a short period gives his body enough time to adjust to the new footing without him being in pain.
Bute is not nearly powerful enough to mask a major lameness or give enough relief for a horse to not feel pain, and NSAIDs are not all evil.
Why would vets perscribe bute if there were not a good use for it?? This is a prime example of when a low dose of an antinflammatory drug given over a short period is ideal for use to reduce a horse's discomfort and prompt it to move around.
And, you know what else can cause kidney problems? Alfalfa, oats, fresh grass and old age, along with many other things that horses deal with daily.

_I don't understand what is so wrong with reducing a horse's discomfort. _Yes there are risks associated with it, but there are risks with everything they do. Even if you bubble wrapped them and kept them in a padded stall they'd still find someway to hurt themselves.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

scabs as in scratches?? Scratches will cause swellling ask me I know all about it my son's horse stands in the pond most of the summer and we fight them!! He will seem to be stocked up and I finally realized it was teh scratches causing it !!!


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

I'm taking they were scratched...but they looked fairly old....longer than 3 weeks. 
But he had a little swelling today and he worked out of it. So I think it's just because he's not moving


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

whoa there, I wasn't trying to get on anyone's case. I'm just saying it's a prescription drug, and not to give it like candy. Some horses have been reported with mouth ulcers after just a few days; I think it's good for people to know that there are risks associated with the drug. Also, I never said it would mask a major lameness--I said it could mask a serious colic issue (and it has, many, many times.)

Ulcers are a huge problem in horses; more so then people realize--and trying to minimize risks never hurt anyone.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Last time I checked hon, Advil is ibuprofen.


 Remember that there is an over the counter and a perscription ibuprofen. Secondly your doctor will tell you not to take ibuprofen for extended perriods of time. 

Sonny, glad you've figured out that he is simply stocking up and it's nothing to worry about.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

I wasn't particually worried about it in the first place....just more POed that it keeps happening lol
Thanks all for your help!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Is he lame when he stocks up? I have a friend that has a horse that stocks up and she will take him on a light walk trot ride when it happens and the swelling will go down but I know someone else that has to wrap her horses legs with standing wraps and he actually go's lame when he stocks up.

When are you up for shots? I'd probably go ahead and ad that to the list of things for the vet to do when he/she is out. It wouldnt hurt and if you make it part of a regular appointment then it shouldnt ad too much cost... It would be worth it...JUST IN CASE there is a problem....


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

Nope...hasn't been lame because of stocking up...nor been sensitive around his back legs (besides for the one cut that caused him to be lame before...but it's healing and isn't causing the stocking up)

He already had his fall shots...so in April or May probably he'll get his Spring shots. I'll have hte vet do another flextion test and mention about all the stocking up next tiem she's out.


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## rascalboy (Jun 30, 2007)

Hi everyone!
Um, I didn't read all of this, so I don't know if someone has cleared this up yet, but stocking up has nothing to do with lameness or injury. Swelling is what occurs with an injury. Stocking up usually means the legs are fairly cool (sometimes a bit warm) and there's no lameness, and it goes down after about 20 minutes of riding.
Most of the horses at our barn stock up, and there's nothing to be worried about.
It comes from standing around too long. If you're really worried about it, see if you can get your horse turned out longer.
Now, if it's just one (sometimes two) legs that are 'stocking up', and it's hot, or he's lame on it, or it's really swollen, then that has to do with an injury, and you'd best get the vet.
But it's it all 4 legs (or just the back two), and the horse doesn't seem in pain, it's just stocking up from standing still, and will go down after walking some.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

rascal, we did find out it was because he's standing in one place too long. 
hes outside 24/7 so I can't turn him out longer than that lol


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

Hey guys, im sorry i am late on this one but my mare stocks up when it's really wet or she kicks the bars ... once she was stocked up for a few days and i sweat wrapped her lags and that worked wonders! If you want to know how to sweat wrap lemme know it's easy


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Karley, that doesn't sound like stocking up, especially from the "kicking the bars" part. Stocking up happens just from in activity rather then trauma and goes away as soon as you work your horse for a bit.


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## hotreddun (Jun 27, 2008)

Sonny...Im catching this late and somebody may have already mentioned this...but...

my vet has told me before that some horses who "stock up" from an injury...standing around whatever...will never get rid of it regardless of what you do. He said some horses tissues will get stretched from the fluid build up and never "un-stretch". The exercise gets rid of it because the increase in circulation as the hooves strike the ground...but then the stretched area fills back up as soon as the horse stops. He said you could drain it i.e. sticking a syringe in their and physically draining it...but it will prolly come back within a few weeks. Some humans do the same thing...I knew this BMX guy who knocked his elbow and it stays swelled up. We called it his Swelbow. Luckily his Mom's a nurse and she drains it once a month...:? Gross...anyway...just thought I'd let you know that there may be no cause or treatment. Might just be there to stay.:-|


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

The swelling in the elbow of your friend may be from an inflamed bursar sack. I took a spill off a horse on to blacktop many years ago. The swelling never went down and was actually spongy feeling. I ended up having the bursar removed.


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## missy06 (Apr 5, 2008)

I'm just adding on rather than starting a new thread. I went to feed Blaze last night and his rear fetlocks were definitely swollen. They were no warmer than the rest of his leg/front legs. We had about 2 inches of snow on the ground over some serious ice, and the footing is pretty treacherous. I think it's simply stocking up because he didn't seem lame (I hand walked him for about 10 minutes then rode bareback inside for 10 more). However, the swelling didn't go down after his moving around. He's definitely not moving around a lot, despite being on 24/7 turnout. As you all know from his thrush issues, he's mostly just standing around munching hay, and the water trough is maybe 30 years from the hay bale spot.

Anything I can do for him when I go out tomorrow? We're having a horrible winter storm right now (as you MI people know!) so my BO's feeding everyone's horses for them tonight, and I asked her to check his legs for me. We will be doing a light workout in the deep snow tomorrow.


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