# Trainers Riding Their Student's Horse



## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

This is more of a question than anything. For those of you who ARE trainers, I would really like your input, but students...please chime in too.

The stable that I grew up at in Southern California had 2 AMAZING trainers. Of course one was WP and the other H/J. But they were great friends and shared philosophies and sometimes could sub well for each other if needed. One great thing that they both did was ANY time a new student came in with their own horse, or a student bought a new horse, etc, the trainers would hop on and take it for a spin. The reason, they wanted to get to know the horse too so that in lesson they would know what issues were actually the HORSE and which were actually the STUDENT. It also put an end to the whining of "but my horse is doing this, or my horse is doing that, it's my horse's fault."

Anyway, of course I grew up thinking this is what trainers did. Sadly I have YET to find a trainer who will hop onto to Cinny for even 5 minutes! Not the very reputable and pricey dressage trainer I started with, Not the EXTREMELY price clinician who gave her clinics as a series of 45 minute private lessons who rode each horse, but mine...for the first 15 minutes. And non of the other sudo, call themselves a trainer but not sure if they were people that have come after. Even my current trainer who is sort of a "middle of the line" sort of trainer..but she has an excuse, she is recovering from a stress fracture in her ankle and can't ride any horse. But she recently lost a bit of respect when I told her about the saddle fitter telling me my saddle isn't right...she shook her head and laughed and said she new all along. So why the heck did she never say a word? but I digress.

So which is normal? Which should I expect? Should I expect any reputable trainer I work with to hop on Cinny for at least 1 or 2 times around the arena so that they feel the way he goes into the bridle and the way he throws you into your post? And how do I ask a trainer. There have been times that Cinny has been particularly MOUTHY and throwing his head around...which if I follow his head with my hands they move a lot. So I got yelled at to keep my hands quiet but when I did he got worse and he ended up popped in the mouth constantly with the bit because I was "holding my hands quiet".....this trainer even said this was better, but I don't think Cinny thought so. I just wanted to scream YOU GET ON AND SEE WHAT HE'S DOING...it's not just me! But I didn't.

Is it appropriate to ask your trainer to get on your horse. And what is a respectful way to be a bit insistent that they do? I'm not trying to blame all my problems on Cinny, but when a trainer puts me on a lesson horse and then keeps saying "I don't know why you don't ride this quietly on your own horse."

How can a trainer teach me how to fix little problems in my horse when they don't have any experience of what it is like to ride my horse?

Oh and this is a fun example to share too.... My current trainer said I don't put near enough leg on my horse and that is why he won't round or go into the bridle. She is constantly telling me to squeeze squeeze squeeze...which you HAVE to do with her lesson horses to even keep them in a trot. Cinny has extremely sensitive flanks and the result is, Cinny rushes forward or worse, breaks off into a hand gallop with more than a mere tickle of your calf...which then is my fault for not holding him in. Sigh.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

I don't see the point of an instructor riding your horse. Chances are they won't have any problems getting the horse to do whatever it is they are asking the horse to do. Their job is to give _you_ the skills to ride _your_ horse. 

Whether the instructor can ride your horse or not is irrelevant. You need to ride your horse.

Now, if your horse doesn't have the skills yet and you don't have the experience to teach him said skills then you need to send him to a trainer.

So, is the person you are working with a riding instructor or a horse trainer? If she is a horse trainer, then, yes, I would expect her to be riding the horse. If she is a riding instructor, I would never expect her to get on your horse. 

LOL, is that clear as mud?? LOL


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I've been on every one of my students horses. I like to have a feel of how they work, what they do/don't know, how they respond to pressure and being corrected, etc. It then makes it easier to say if it is a rider or horse issue and get it fixed. 

I also ride if a horse is off in any way (not lame of course) because I get as much if not more from feel than watching.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Sahara said:


> I don't see the point of an instructor riding your horse. Chances are they won't have any problems getting the horse to do whatever it is they are asking the horse to do. Their job is to give _you_ the skills to ride _your_ horse.
> 
> Whether the instructor can ride your horse or not is irrelevant. You need to ride your horse.


Oh I understand that part. Any great trainer can probably get Cinny to do what they want once they get to know him. But Cinny isn't a well trained Dressage horse, he is only 2 years under saddle. So he still has some learning to do. As I said above...my current trainer keeps yelling at me to squeeze him tighter and that I don't GRIP enough with my calves so that he will drop into the bridle, but that isn't want he does when you squeeze or grip with your calves. What he does when you keep squeezing and gripping is pop his head into the air, speed up and break into a gallop. Not canter....an "I want out of here, where is the **** door" FLYING GALLOP.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

As a student, I had no trouble with asking the instructor to get on my horse and either demonstrate or to see if my horse would behave the same way under a better rider. And she had no trouble with hopping on and saying, "See, if I trot with her on the wrong lead, her ears come back and her head raises...she's telling on me, just as she was with you". However, the lady I hired was a horse trainer first and a riding instructor second. Don't know if that makes a difference.

When I took group lessons a year ago, the instructor would sometimes ask a rider to step off and would mount up (in shorts and flip-flops) to demonstrate what she was trying to convey.

Reading some of the older threads on Cinny, it seems to me it would help you both if an instructor would get on and see (and hopefully demonstrate) how the rider affects the horse.

Sometimes it is NOT you. On a couple of times, when the lady I hired got on Mia, Mia responded the same for her as for me - and that indicated something else was going on (usually a hole in Mia's training).

Just my experience. FWIW.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> What he does when you keep squeezing and gripping is pop his head into the air, speed up and break into a gallop.


See, that to me is a rider issue as well as a green horse issue. You need to find the balance of how much squeeze this particular horse needs to round up and stretch down without scaring him away from your leg. That is just going to be lots and lots of transitions.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

bsms said:


> As a student, I had no trouble with asking the instructor to get on my horse and either demonstrate or to see if my horse would behave the same way under a better rider


Hmmm, I like that. I could ask her to demonstrate. Or since my current trainer can't ride yet, maybe I can ask if her advanced student can demonstrate what it should be like.

Or maybe I can ask if the advanced student can help figure out what works with Cin as in amount of pressure, etc....and then kind of help when I'm on because she will know by his reaction if I'm doing whatever the suggestion is too much, too little, etc.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

It very well may be a rider issue, but what if the horse doesnt know what your asking? Wouldnt it make sense for the trainer to get on, show the horse what we want, and then have the owner get on and do it? So the horse knows what he supposed to do? Just my thinking if the owner cant get what they want out of the horse...

My trainer has no problem hopping on my horses if i want them too. When Rumor was there, she got me up on her to see if i could get the same response out o f her as she did. She has wayyy longer legs then me so cues can be interpreted differently by the horse. Rumor worked great for both of us, but thats besides the point.

I believe its $15 for my trainer to ride my horse in a training session. $20 for a regular lesson on your own horse, and $25 for a lesson on one of the barns horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

i don't know if its customary to do so but my trainer did. he worked denny on the lunge line then rode him. then put me on his lesson horse for an evaluation.

then next session he put me and denny together and we started working on the holes we both had in training. 

seems it would be a smart practice to go about it that way :/


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

A good coach can see what's happening before the rider feels it. I've often wondered if my coach is some kind or weird horse psychic because of what she sees before it happens, but as my feel gets refined and my eye gets better watching her teach, I am beginning to see and feel it as well. She very, very rarely gets on a horse in a lesson and usually only to ride through what I do not have the timing or feel yet to do. There are only a handful of horses she will ride, I'm lucky that mine is one of them.
I feel like any coach who feels that they need to get on a horse to feel what's going on is an inexperienced rider themselves. When I am teaching, only if the horse is so far off from another whom I have ridden do I think I need to get on for a spin. The issue for me in doing that is it is usually that I can work through the issue easily and then it frustrates me that the rider can't do it when for me it is almost in my nature. So I avoid getting on the horse until I have an idea of the communication style of the rider and that I know I can explain what I am doing. However usually going through a few analogies and exercises the rider can come to their own understanding which is ideal.

And yes if you put leg on your horse and it runs away, you didn't hold it enough and it is your fault. I've put 20-25 rides on a greenbroke horse never off the lunge and he is already schooling first level and hacking out quietly. Do you think he didn't run away or buck the first times I used a leg aid? Reinforcement and training are what have him where he is now, not eye rolling at important concepts and how hard it makes your life to do something fundamental like put a leg on and then deal with the result. It's called training and riding, not pretending to be a sack of potatoes.
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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I used to teach some.. and I started out with the student on their horse.. and we would do some things. If all was going well.. we went forward. 

OTOH when it was clear things were NOT progressing I would get up on Ol' Dobbin myself. Was I a perfect rider? Nope.. never have been.. but I could tell right away if Ol' Dobbin was working right or not. Sometimes the student was not advanced enough to deal with a problem. If I saw that, and it wasn't a big deal, I would get on and give the horse 15 minutes in Elana's Horse training School.. and then the student would get on his/her horse with an attitude more in tune to what we were doing. 

Never thought about refusing to get on a student's horse. Fact is, I often asked to get on. Sometimes I got to spend a few minutes on a really wonderful horse that way!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

My trainer has never ridden one of my horses, she can see from what I'm doing and what the horse is doing where the issues lie. I was so pleased in my first lesson on Willow, my first ride on her, that we were seeing, well she was seeing and I was feeling the same thing at about the same time.

I can certainly see the benefit of a trainer riding your horse, but I don't think that they have to. I'm sure Mel would ride one of mine if I asked her to, but so far I haven't reached the sort of road block where I need her to ride for me.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> A good coach can see what's happening before the rider feels it. I've often wondered if my coach is some kind or weird horse psychic because of what she sees before it happens, but as my feel gets refined and my eye gets better watching her teach, I am beginning to see and feel it as well. She very, very rarely gets on a horse in a lesson and usually only to ride through what I do not have the timing or feel yet to do. There are only a handful of horses she will ride, I'm lucky that mine is one of them.
> I feel like any coach who feels that they need to get on a horse to feel what's going on is an inexperienced rider themselves. When I am teaching, only if the horse is so far off from another whom I have ridden do I think I need to get on for a spin. The issue for me in doing that is it is usually that I can work through the issue easily and then it frustrates me that the rider can't do it when for me it is almost in my nature. So I avoid getting on the horse until I have an idea of the communication style of the rider and that I know I can explain what I am doing. However usually going through a few analogies and exercises the rider can come to their own understanding which is ideal.
> 
> And yes if you put leg on your horse and it runs away, you didn't hold it enough and it is your fault. I've put 20-25 rides on a greenbroke horse never off the lunge and he is already schooling first level and hacking out quietly. Do you think he didn't run away or buck the first times I used a leg aid? Reinforcement and training are what have him where he is now, not eye rolling at important concepts and how hard it makes your life to do something fundamental like put a leg on and then deal with the result. It's called training and riding, not pretending to be a sack of potatoes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I really like your explanation as you have made it easy to understand. It was also though provoking. I am now thinking back and asking myself if my current trainer explained WHY I didn't have enough leg. I know a lot of it is visual to her and she says my legs don't "hug" him. She also tells younger students that their calves are their "seatbelts" and they must always hold on tightly with their "seatbelts." Cinny doesn't like the whole "seatbelt" approach and hat IS my fault because I never gave him more leg than I needed to make him move forward..which as I said is a mere tickle of the calf...a split second squeeze then release and only gently resting my lower legs against him. Sometimes all I have to do is a hairline movement of an ankle. 

And the constant holding with the leg confuses me. This may be where I am very wrong. I have always learned to ride a horse solely on core and balance and legs are just cues, signals but not meant to hold with. Maybe my very first H/J trainer i the 80's that ingrained this in me was the start of going down a wrong path I don't know. I do know that almost any horse I have ridden since then, I can literally lift my calves, off them, let my legs just hang and no matter what they do I just sort of stick....like handgalloping full out with no legs holding you on, sort of in this sweet spot of balance where there is no effort at all...the horse just moves under you freely.

There was a day that they had a sprinkler in the arena to do some obstacle work with the 4 H Girls and I wa riding Cin bareback. When the water hit him the first time he leaped sidewas and did a spin. The trainer and her asisstant dropped their jaws and said "How did you stay on, you aren't holding on with your legs at all" And then told me I need to start "using my seatbelts."

I know I am by far not even an intermediate Dressage rider. I know my trainer isn't exactly a Dressage trainer (mainly a 4H leader that owns a barn). Maybe I am having too much attitude in looking for her flaws. Or maybe she really confusing me. 

I admit that where it comes to Dressage and my horse, I really don't know what is right from wrong anymore. I read and watch from training parafenelia from Conrad Schumacher and Jane Savoie, and think "hey, wow, that really helped" but then have a trainer tell me to do the opposite things or that something that Schumacher says is an expected response from a green or young horse is something that is very wrong and I should NEVER allow Cinny to do and I'm crazy to think that's correct. Sigh.... and then a reputable clinician when asked which is right then ends up agreeing with the vids/books.... 

IT's no wonder Cinny and I are such a big mess.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Many coaches are worried that if they get onto a student's horse and can't get better results, it reflects badly on their abilities. They often will not get on as a result.

I get on all of my students horses. When a horse has a stumbling block that the rider can't address properly, I want to get on a feel what is really going on. Every horse is different and what it may take to help this horse will differ every time. There is no "cookie cutter" solution for every problem.

I believe that I have the ability to diagnose where the problem is, just what it may take to help, try it, see the results, get off, and now talk the student through this solution.

At a clinic I taught in Canada a student brought a horse with a serious resistance problem.










It was a study in frustration for both horse and rider. I got on to see what was going on. Simply watching from the ground doesn't always give to a clue at the the subtlety that may be required to help. Within minutes I figured out what was going on and how to fix it.










When the owner got back on, I was able to talk her through the correction. The rider was a really nice rider who had just hit a wall. She quickly was able to adapt her riding to give this horse what he was looking for. At the end of the lesson, all was going well.










Could I have gotten the same result without getting on? Probably. But, I was able to speed the process by my getting on.

I wonder why other trainers are so hesitant sometimes, even though I understand the worry of looking bad.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Amount of leg may vary with the horse's training. A lot of western trained horses are not used to having constant contact with the lower leg, and they respond by going faster - which is what they think they are supposed to do. And when I ride my horse with our Circle Y, I don't have contact with my lower leg because the saddle tree pushes my leg away.

Trooper was trained on a ranch. He was also spurred quite hard on a ranch he was loaned to, and it took several years of riding before even very light touches of the lower leg didn't automatically cause a rapid increase in speed. Mia was trained by a western trainer (yes, she got her training 3 years after I bought her, but that is another story). However, I'm the one who has ridden her out. Riding her in an Aussie-style saddle, I normally have a light contact with my lower leg. She knows me and doesn't worry until the light contact becomes a nudge.

When I ride Trooper, I try to remember he doesn't like feeling my lower leg next to him. And I think it is reasonable for a teacher to get on a horse and find out where the horse is at in its training rather than expecting it to be trained her way. More of my humble opinion...


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Allison, that top picture looks like Cinny when I do the "seatbelt" thing I described above that my trainer says to do. Although, I know my current saddle situation doesn't help but he does it bareback and bareback with my daughter. We take part of the "hold on for life" thing out of our lower legs and he relaxes.


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## 4everiding (Jul 3, 2012)

I would def ask your trainer to get on when she gets better so she can see what your guy is all about. For now, I would ask her to tell you the moment you are doing something correctly so you can feel what "correct" is and reward him. This way it will be easier to ask your horse correctly in the future. When she gets on in the future, she can see what he's all about, etc...

On to the galloping issue (I had this one):

If you squeeze your horse tighter with legs but you leave the "front door" open, he's going to run. If your horse is out to your hands and is creating the contact and you squeeze your horse tighter, the front door is no longer open and he won't run. Same thing happens in you leave the "back door" open and increase the pressure of your hands, your horse will draw back from your hand to evade the bit and then his gait gets choppy, blech... ask your trainer if you should if you should close your hands more if you increase the leg pressure


When I ride, I remember this pyramid, I start from the bottom and work my way up (imagine the left bar as the horse's front end and the right as his rear end)
||
|-> <-|
|-> <-|
|-> <-|

Here's what happens when you leave the "front door" open and increase leg pressure:

 <---<--| <-|

and when you leave the "back door" open and increase hand pressure:

|-> |-->--> 


Asking tons of questions never hurts it can only help. A trainer can only teach you the mechanics of riding correct, you need to learn to feel correct and a trainer can't teach you feel.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Ask ten different horse people and get ten different answers. 

I am open to different approaches and my horse tells me if it works. Currently my horse is saying, "do whatever Buck Brannaman says" so I do. Just because it works for her. Other approaches which may or may not conflict with that work, or not, to varying degrees. 

The thing about staying on by gripping with your calves as though they were a seatbelt seems odd to me. I was taught to not do this. I can also stay on a spook bareback and I don't grip with my legs. 

When I took lessons, my trainer would occasionally get on. If nothing else, it was reassuring to see that my horse could actually do what was being asked of her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 4everiding (Jul 3, 2012)

my pyramid got messed up, boo

basically bottom of the pyramid: long and low and then you compress both ways until you get your horse to where he needs to be at your level (only works if your horse stands out to your hand).


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

While 4evariding is certainly right in theory, I would say that Cinny's problem is complicated by the fact that her horse is not (as I read her posts in this thread and elsewhere) very accepting of hand or leg aids. If he's resistant to the hand and she closes the door, he hollows and flings his head around, right? You need a trainer who will use whatever method to help him calmly accept the aids. That will make a huge difference.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

4everiding said:


> ...If your horse is out to your hands and is creating the contact and you squeeze your horse tighter, the front door is no longer open and he won't run...


Hmmm. Depending on how he's been trained, you may just **** him off. If he believes you are telling him to both speed up and slow down at the same time, he's going to get confused. He can be trained to be ridden that way, but it might require some understanding and breaking things down into smaller pieces first.

I have no idea how Cinny has been trained. I'm just noting that MY horses were not happy about ANY lower leg contact that wasn't a specific cue until I rode them for a while and they learned light contact was normal for me. And Trooper still rides differently for me than for others, because he has learned it as being one of my oddities rather than being the 'new normal'.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

bsms said:


> Amount of leg may vary with the horse's training. A lot of western trained horses are not used to having constant contact with the lower leg, and they respond by going faster - which is what they think they are supposed to do. And when I ride my horse with our Circle Y, I don't have contact with my lower leg because the saddle tree pushes my leg away.
> 
> Trooper was trained on a ranch. He was also spurred quite hard on a ranch he was loaned to, and it took several years of riding before even very light touches of the lower leg didn't automatically cause a rapid increase in speed. Mia was trained by a western trainer (yes, she got her training 3 years after I bought her, but that is another story). However, I'm the one who has ridden her out. Riding her in an Aussie-style saddle, I normally have a light contact with my lower leg. She knows me and doesn't worry until the light contact becomes a nudge.
> 
> When I ride Trooper, I try to remember he doesn't like feeling my lower leg next to him. And I think it is reasonable for a teacher to get on a horse and find out where the horse is at in its training rather than expecting it to be trained her way. More of my humble opinion...


You triggered a thought with this. Cinny's only training before I got him was a typical Western 30 day BREAKING. I don't know who did it, or what they did. I do know when I got Cinny he was very sensitive around the flanks and it took me almost 2 years to get him to even relax a little bit with a bit in his mouth..and was a horrible teeth gritter. 

This is his history as told by his previous owner. 1) She bought his dam when he was a few months old and he was included in the deal and just 3 or 4 months old. He was later weaned and put in a dry lot with other horses. He stayed there until he was 6 years old. They got him out, gelded him and sent him out for a typical Western 30 day training. They didn't have time for him and put him back in the dry lot. The next summer they decided to try him as a trail horse. Broken bones were involved, and not his. The next spring (2010) He was sold to me as an untrained pasture puff that I later found out had a really bad reputation. 

He has only ever bucked with a person on him since I got him, one time. It was a couple of months ago when we were at the fairgrounds the night before a show. He wouldn't pick up a correct lead and I kept at him until he did it. He took one stride, gave me a hard buck and stopped dead in his tracks and glared at me. I got off, untacked and checked him head to toe...he had a cut on his heel bulb I had missed when grooming. He was only trying to tell me he was hurt.

He has always had a different way of doing things, or reacting to things than other horses. He isn't a bully, but he refuses to be bullied too. If you ask, if he understands what you are asking he will try his heart out to do it. If he doesn't understand he will grit his teeth, toss his head, turn and glare at you or try to anticipate or guess. If try to bully him to do something (get in a trailer is a good example) and yank on him, use a crop on him, yell.... watch out because he will explode back at you tenfold. He also doesn't forget a person and he is very opinionated about who he likes. He isn't bad or mean to people he doesn't like, he will just play tricks on them. 

Maybe that's why I feel like I would like a trainer to get on him. Maybe I'm just stuck up and think I'm the only person who understands my horse and the way he works...or that you have to get on him to understand how his brain works. I don't know.

Maybe I should just send him to someone to work with for a month or two and take myself out of the equation, and then have that person give me lessons with him.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

It sounds to me as if you are asking your horse to do things he hasn't been set up properly to do. You need to go back to working with him at a walk. The foundation has to be there to build on. Set him up for success.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Sounds as if the poor lad missed out on a lot of the basic training youngsters get. I'd say you may want to find a really sympathetic trainer and backtrack until he no longer overreacts to your aids. Bsms can get away with his horse being hypersensitive about his flanks, cause he trail rides him and seems happy to adapt. If you want to do dressage, the horse needs to be responsive to, but not freaked out by leg aids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

bsms said:


> Hmmm. Depending on how he's been trained, you may just **** him off. If he believes you are telling him to both speed up and slow down at the same time, he's going to get confused. He can be trained to be ridden that way, but it might require some understanding and breaking things down into smaller pieces first.
> 
> I have no idea how Cinny has been trained. I'm just noting that MY horses were not happy about ANY lower leg contact that wasn't a specific cue until I rode them for a while and they learned light contact was normal for me. And Trooper still rides differently for me than for others, because he has learned it as being one of my oddities rather than being the 'new normal'.


Riding leg, seat into hand creates the contact you want your horse to ride INTO and seek. You're not giving two different cues (stop, go) at the same time, per se, you're giving a cue for contact. If you throw away your rein (read:contact) then you have "opened a door" out the front for the energy to flow out.

ETA: there's more to it, but I don't want my thumbs to start bleeding haha. If someone hasn't addressed it further when I get on a keyboard, I'll try to remember to come back and explain..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

4everiding said:


> If you squeeze your horse tighter with legs but you leave the "front door" open, he's going to run. If your horse is out to your hands and is creating the contact and you squeeze your horse tighter, the front door is no longer open and he won't run. Same thing happens in you leave the "back door" open and increase the pressure of your hands, your horse will draw back from your hand to evade the bit and then his gait gets choppy, blech... ask your trainer if you should if you should close your hands more if you increase the leg pressure


I like this one. I think this is where I get jumbled up though because I can have my reins so tight that there is only maybe 18 inches between my hands and his mouth and he is nearly behind the vertical and when that leg pressure goes on he LEANS into the bit, throws up his head and yanks the reins out of my hands or....starts throwing his head side to side and up and down, every which way while rushing forward. At this point I think "half halt, seat, half halt, seat" and try not to be yanked forward by him. Inevitably I give up, drop my reins and we both stop to breathe. I know this seems tight but I have learned that he considers anything looser an "open door." 

Maybe a fix is to just let him go, use my seat and half halt and ride on the buckle a few minutes with the leg on him until I feel him begin to relax, then pick up my reins and slowly close the door without LOCKING it so much until I have him relaxed with the leg on him? This would probably take a good 4 hours though, knowing him. 

BTW, I have a Happy Mouth loos ring double jointed snaffle on him....I know after reading above that you guys are imagining some kimberwicke, tom thumb or worse tearing up his mouth in our struggle... Don't worry I don't even own such things


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If your goal is a dressage horse, it might help if you could let a trainer work with him with that in mind. There are a lot of threads about the differences between western & english riding, and I think we sometimes forget that there are REAL differences that go well beyond the tack used.

He sounds a lot like Mia. She'll try hard if she understands, but she's a "Please & Thank You Horse", not a "DAMMIT Horse". And when she doesn't understand, she'll get irritated and then scared. And scared is not fun for either of us. My goal for her is for her to become 'just a trail horse', and that is taking a lot of work. I need to break ABC down to A, and sometimes to an "a", and sometimes to "half of an a" before she gets it. In return, once she gets it, she'll give you everything she has!

I also plan to have the trainer come back and work some more with her next summer. There are things a pro can teach that I just don't understand well enough myself - my body, my mind understands the theory but my darn 54 year old body won't do what it needs to do - to give her a fair chance at learning. Everyone talks about Green + Green, but we sometimes have to make do with what we've got. However, it would be really tough, I think, for a learning dressage rider to teach a horse dressage. It is tough enough for a green trail rider to teach a green trail horse to trail ride...


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## 4everiding (Jul 3, 2012)

Cinny you said your horse is leaning into your hands. That's a big problem.

My OTTB used to do this all the time when I first got him, he was used to having someone tear on his face and he leaned into it. I would try to hold him back and boom he was off to win the imaginary race in his head.

My trainer saw this the first time I had a lesson with him and he told me to drop my reins, my horse stopped...who would have thought.

I started at the walk and my trainer made me "comb the reins". Ask him to yield to my hand by holding my outside hand steady opening my inside reind and squeezing with my inside leg. The second my horse yielded to my hand (dropped head, softened back, slowed down) I let the reins slide through my hands so he could stretch out to reward him, pick up contact again and I did this over and over again and then did it repeatedly at the trot until my horse would trot around long and low. This taught him to reach for my hands and create the contact, I still do this with him if he's feeling like he wants to dictate the ride. I do this for 5 minutes and he's giving me the trot/canter that I want not the one he's offered me and he creates the contact between his mouth and my hands.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

4everiding said:


> Cinny you said your horse is leaning into your hands. That's a big problem.


He doesn't do it all the time, only if i try to "close the door." In fact, a repetitive remark of judges is that we don't have a constant or confident connection. I agree with that. My reins normally tend to be on the too loose and slightly dangling side. 

When I try to put squeeze or put pressure from my calves on him in a way that my trainer can visibly see it, and then hold him in...THAT is when he does it. If I ride "my style" where I just sort of give him an ankle flick and then release...he gently goes forward with rhythm and stays at a constant gait and a steady rhythm. If I hold my legs on him, he will get faster and faster.... If I then close the door he does the above.

does that make sense?

He also neck reins very beautifully and you can go out on trail or ride bareback in the arena with your reins completely dropped and just use your seat and touch his neck with the reins to get him to yield over, turn and..he stops with completely dropped reins and no use of them at all, just on seat. He is perfect at a walk, however at the trot his head comes straight up and he prances around like a giraffe if you ride him on the buckle or completely loose. I have never had the guts to canter him with dropped reins though.

He has a lot of knowledge in there, but the holes in between are many.


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## 4everiding (Jul 3, 2012)

Cinny what you explained makes perfect sense. I've been exactly where you are before and it's frustrating.

If he's won't yield to your hand and truly accept the bit when you close the doors he won't compress, he'll explode. What you guys need to work on is having him reach for your hand if that means giving up your current "frame" for a bit and taking him back down to long and low, that's perfectly fine. Use long, low and happy as your foundation and build on it.


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## Ashsunnyeventer (Aug 17, 2012)

I wish my trainer would get on my new horse. My trainer is constantly asking me to wear spurs to help my horse bend, but bar she done not understand is that my horse won't slow down enough to bend if I wear spurs. My trainer sat on my other horse once because I absolutely couldn't get him round. She then agreed that he was very difficult to ride and said he should see a chiropractor. That chiro did wonders. 
I wish all trainers would ride the students horses becaus all horses are different. It makes everyone's job easier if you both know what the horse feels like. Unfortunately this is the only time any trainer has ridden my horse 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I understand your frustration. Although I taught for 10 years on my own horses, and I knew them thoroughly, I did some lessons at other places for my students on horses that they were leasing. I found it useful to hop on, if the horse didn't respond to the student, JUST LIKE my original Hunt Seat teacher would do with a school horse that wasn't listening.
Perhaps it has to do with trainers who differentiate between the $ of a lesson on your horse vs the $ of training your horse by getting on. I notice that Julie Goodknight gets on the client's horse after she takes a good look at the rider having a problem with the horse. This is what I used to see all of the time.
I do know that if your trainer gets on and fixes the problem _before_ watching YOU ride, it's very easy to become discouraged and think you don't know how to ride your own property.
It could also be out of reacting to previous clients who get irritated when the horse behaves well for the trainer but badly for the client, and we live in an age where manners go out the window for many people. Often customers blow their lid when they are unhappy and practice "ring-rage" (read that, "in the arena on your horse Road Rage").
If you really are unhappy, look for a trainer who also will ride your horse once in awhile. =D


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## Ponies (Aug 18, 2012)

my instructor has ridden my horse afew times, and when Im giving 'mini lessons', id rather know the horses buttons before giving advice, and I think my instructor sees it the same way too.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

4everiding said:


> Cinny what you explained makes perfect sense. I've been exactly where you are before and it's frustrating.
> 
> If he's won't yield to your hand and truly accept the bit when you close the doors he won't compress, he'll explode. What you guys need to work on is having him reach for your hand if that means giving up your current "frame" for a bit and taking him back down to long and low, that's perfectly fine. Use long, low and happy as your foundation and build on it.


We don't quite really have a frame yet as we have been working mainly on rhythm and not rushing. I was working on "long and low" for a while and "long and low" is what this trainer is telling me I shouldn't allow....her reason is that it will teach him to lean on the bit later.

This is what I need.
1) a new fabulous saddle that fits us both (I'm working on it)
2) move to a stable where skunks don't guard my horse's stall and where I won' have to put up with him smelling like a skunk
3) a trainer..not someone who teaches lessons but an actual honest to goodness Dressge TRAINER who won't leave me confused and wondering if I just unlearned the right thing as well as not only will tell me what is wrong, but will tell me how to correct it for MY horse.
4) and after I get this trainer I want to be able to go to clinics with great people like Conrad Schumacher and Jane Savoie etc etc and NOT come back with the feeling that what they said was the opposite of what my trainer says.

Unfortunately I live in NEBRASKA.... (tiny voice now) go huskers rah rah rah


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

I love it when my trainer rides my horse. I usually go up to see my trainer maybe a week a year, or for shows. I always beg him to hop on. Sometimes if I've been working on a technique and not getting through, it's great to have my trainer teach the horse through, then it makes it easier for me to communicate. Or if I'm completely terrified of doing something, or super frustrated, it gives me a chance to calm down while he battles it out with my horse.  Since I only see him 3-4 times a year, I'm allowed hehe.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Your horse has had 30 days of training.. that is NOTHING. He needs a FOUNDATION. What you are describing is precisely the behavior of a green green horse. 

The other thing with the lower leg.. you don't need to SQUEEZE steady with the lower leg. Squeeze is a request to respond.. one leg at a time or both at once. LAYING your leg on the horse (NOT Squeezing) is different. And anyone who can ride should be able to ride with Spurs and only apply them when needed.. so if you do not need them, they are not in contact with the horse! 

I am thinking what Cinny needs here is for his rider to lay his leg on him (just resting.. NOT squeezing). Squeeze only when you want something. 

Here is another thing.. don't just steady resist with your hands.. because when you do, the horse has something to pull against. Ride with a more relaxed hand and some contact and when you resists, Squeeze your hand closed (like you are squeezing a sponge) and then release. Smooth and slow. 

So.. you ride with your leg against the horse (just in contact) and then squeeze the horse forward and squeeze your hand closed asking the horse to soften his jaw and then release (both hand and leg). Smooth and easy.. not fast and jerky. Do it at the walk.. 

The Squeeze pushes the horse into the bit.. and the hand softly asks (remember.. you are squeezing a sponge here) the horse to drop his poll and relax his jaw.. and before he can take off or raise his head up and poke his nose out to resist, you release. Nothing to pull against. no pressure to run ahead from. No reason to resist or raise his head and no reason to charge away. Don't ask for too much too soon either. He is very green and this takes time. 

You are never going to boss a 1500 pound animal into doing something while sitting on his back. You are not going to haul him around like a train or a truck.. because if you do that is what you will get.. a cumbersome truck. 

OTOH, if you ask (politely) you will get the horse thinking and responding. 

As someone put it to me a long time ago, "With cattle and dogs you can often bully 'em into what you want. With cats and horses you have to ask for what you want and let them think it is THEIR idea."


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Elana said:


> Your horse has had 30 days of training.. that is NOTHING. He needs a FOUNDATION. What you are describing is precisely the behavior of a green green horse.


I think you misunderstood....that is what he had the *day* I bought him over 2 years ago. He has come a long long way since then.

A lot of what you describe is a lot how I do things...I always squeeze release..ask release, ask release...this is how I was trained.

The method of my barn's trainer is that you DON'T release, even at a halt. This is where we run in to trouble. example I was on a lesson horse of hers about a month ago and she asked me to come it to tell me about something she wanted me to do. I halted the horse and we stood talking. While we talked the lesson horse munched down and forward sliding the reins through my hands, I allowed this as we were standing and I wanted to give him the break. My trainer immediately interrupted herself to say "you took your leg off him, even at a halt you need to a squeezed leg on him so he is properly in the bridle or he will do that and you need to be holding on with your legs in case the horse you are on spooks or otherwise jumps." I was kind of dumbfounded.


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## 4everiding (Jul 3, 2012)

Where's the fun in always being in "frame" on the vertical when your horse isn't ready for that? What would happen if you did this consistently and then let him out for a free walk? Most horses that are forced or hot-dogged into a false frame will bring their head up during the free walk or won't get a nice stretch without the coersion of the rider. A horse in a true frame will immediately stretch down a give you a beautiful free walk with no help from you other than letting the reins slip through your hands.

Your horse is too green to understand the mind set of your trainer and he won't be very happy and could become extremely sour. Hopefully you will find a trainer who understands your horse needs a solid foundation before going on the vertical.

Also, read "Tug of War" or go buy the DVD "If Horses Could Speak: How Incorrect Modern Riding Negatively Affects Horses' Health"

Both are very good and informative.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

4everiding said:


> Where's the fun in always being in "frame" on the vertical when your horse isn't ready for that? What would happen if you did this consistently and then let him out for a free walk? Most horses that are forced or hot-dogged into a false frame will bring their head up during the free walk or won't get a nice stretch without the coersion of the rider. A horse in a true frame will immediately stretch down a give you a beautiful free walk with no help from you other than letting the reins slip through your hands.


Very good advice. I don't try to "pull" or "force" him in to frame..or I try not to. I want him moving off his hiney and using his back first. He just sort of naturally falls into a head carriage of his own, his relaxing place so to speak. I also usually give him 1 or 2 times around the arena at a free walk after about 5 or 6 of doing something like a posting trot, or a canter where I am holding him in a bit more. Usually he knows it's coming and gently tugs the reins out of my hands and walks around with his nose dragging the ground like he is looking for something to eat. A big no no with my trainer...I'm letting him go too low.

The past few month's he has been on "vacation." we ride around with just a rope halter and loos reins neckreining...bareback because my saddle is a big part of our problem and I haven't really been correcting anything except when he decides to change gait or not stand still when I ask. I'm hoping that this freedom will help undo some things. No lessons, no saddles, no bit...just play and fun and building a bond. His new barn nickname is Giraffe Neck  Oh well.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> ...My trainer immediately interrupted herself to say "you took your leg off him, even at a halt you need to a squeezed leg on him so he is properly in the bridle or he will do that and you need to be holding on with your legs in case the horse you are on spooks or otherwise jumps." I was kind of dumbfounded.


I'd be dumbfounded too! Criminy! My legs are getting tired at the thought of it. A low center of gravity is one thing. Trying to squeeze the horse hard enough to keep from coming off is another! With a western saddle, my lower leg doesn't rest against the horse at all. Don't know how I stay on. With my Australian saddle, my lower leg may rest lightly against the horse, but VERY lightly. Sometimes not at all.

Don't know about dressage, though...


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm inclined to seperate the terms. A trainer trains horses, a coach trains riders. Many trainers do not make good coaches. I don't feel one should expect a coach to ride your horse. If the coach declines, perhaps it's because of the risk of being hurt and heaven knows how much has been bent, bruised and broken in the past.


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## goingnowhere1 (Jan 22, 2012)

I've decided to jump into the conversation 5 pages later 
I would certainly say that a trainer AND/OR an instructor should hop on your horse.
Me, being at the lower level I am at, never suggest my trainer to hop on because it is almost always a personal error. 
However, if Lennon just will not stretch or do something, she will get on and either say that I'm screwing up or that he's being a butt.
But I would certainly say that for the first lesson your trainer should hop on for atleast 5 minutes to feel your horse's walk and trot.


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## MySerenity (Jul 18, 2011)

My horse is in half training so I get 3 rides per week. Any combo of trainer rides or lessons depending on what my work week is like. I absolutely LOVE the fact that my trainer knows Jack's quirks and issues. He's green and has a lot to learn and she seems much better able to explain to me what I should be doing since she has experienced how he behaves and reacts first hand. 

I also just love watching someone who knows more than I do riding my horse. Sometimes I just think "wow, he can do that really well!" and get back on and try harder to be a better rider.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

MySerenity said:


> I also just love watching someone who knows more than I do riding my horse. Sometimes I just think "wow, he can do that really well!" and get back on and try harder to be a better rider.


I've had this experience a few times, IT'S GREAT. There is a young lady in our area who is sadly hardly around anymore because she is on the road eventing on her horse, but about 6 months after I bought Cinny she hopped on and she really got him to do some nice things. She was the first person to really WORK on his canter. I just occasionally let him fall into it and then pulled him back up again because he would get too racy. But she actually worked him a couple times for me and taught him he could canter with a rider and move fluidly as one... 

Last Spring a junior H/J who was looking to go more into Dressage test road him as a possible horse to work with on a free lease basis. She didn't get him to stop gritting, but after about half an hour she got him into the bridle and working better. She then popped him over a few cross rails and said she thought he'd be a better jr H/j than a dressage horse... and decided not to work with him. But they looked so so nice together I was really hoping it would work out.

Sometimes I feel like going up to strangers that I see at shows that are excellent riders and asking them to ride my horse just so I can see what he is like with a REAL rider.... but I never do because I figure i would be looked on as impertinent or rude.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Every trainer I have had, rides my horse. From the first lesson, to just hopping on when I am having trouble with something. 

I would be nervous of a coach who is not willing to do that.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Most instructors/trainers worth their title can see what is going on most of the time without having to get on. I can see having new students get on a lesson horse to get a feel for the student, but I wouldn't expect it and I wouldn't expect them to ride my horse.

As far as the whole leg, seatbelt, holding on thing goes... you are NOT supposed to cling or hold on with your legs BUT you should be able to hold a piece of paper against your horses side with your calves. If your horse is running off the second you put leg on him, you need to take a giant step back and work on his foundation. Leg means impulsion more than it means speed. Think of your horse as a spring. Your legs load energy into the spring and your hands control and shape that energy. Your horse should have impulsion in it's walk, in it's canter, even in it's halt.


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## StarfireSparrow (Jan 19, 2009)

From what I have read about what the trainer/coach has been telling you screams to me that you do not have the right person for what you are trying to learn. The idea of "leg = seat-belt" causes me to cringe. If I held my horse with my legs when not asking for something specific, my trainer yelled at me. Unless she is using that term totally different than I understand the meaning, she is not doing you any favors if you are trying to bring a green horse to dressage. 

A "seat-belt" is a way to stay put, your balance should be what you rely on to keep the horse between you and the ground. Grinding your leg into his side is not going to put him in the bridle if he is not forward and giving. Perhaps some time in side reins would help him to get the idea of moving his energy from back to front as well as help him understand how to relax into your hands rather than fuss.

As for the original question, I like for my trainer to get on my horse at least once for two reasons. While there is a lot that can be seen, the visual cues do not always tell the whole story if the horse has prior training. Secondly, I want to see HOW the trainer/coach rides in order to decide if the way they ride is the way I want to learn. Granted that can be seen on any horse, but the clues are much more evident when they get on an unfamiliar horse.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

My trainer has zero problems getting on a horse.

When me and my Mom were doing lessons together to save money, she would often boot my Mom off and ride her horse for about fifteen minutes while she instructed me and let my Mom ride the horse she was riding (She teaches lessons from the saddle herself, not the ground) 

She's done it to me too but more so my Mom because my Mom has physical disabilities and can't always do the "getting after" the horse when it needs to be done. 

If I ask her to, she will trade me horses in a lesson too and ride mine for me. Or she does training rides as an option, instead of purchasing a full 30 days or half a month or a week or whatever.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I hate people who won't just let the horse stand relaxed, or who try and hold it in frame for long periods. I'm currently riding three two ear olds with about 60 days on them and about 1/3 of our riding time is spent either walking on a loose rein or standing relaxed as a reward for doing something well or really trying hard. Horses that are constantly micromanaged just get ****y and sour! Christ, riding is meant to be fun!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> I hate people who won't just let the horse stand relaxed, or who try and hold it in frame for long periods. I'm currently riding three two ear olds with about 60 days on them and about 1/3 of our riding time is spent either walking on a loose rein or standing relaxed as a reward for doing something well or really trying hard. Horses that are constantly micromanaged just get ****y and sour! Christ, riding is meant to be fun!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Indeed! The idea is to push them _a little bit further _every ride. Trot a little bit longer, lift a little bit longer, collect a little bit longer. Not push until they fall apart.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

My coach never gets on a horse, ever. Like Anabel's, she knows exactly what is happening before I can feel anything. I thought I was the "special" one she was so attuned with, but nope. I watched a few other of her students, she picks up on stuff before it happens. Reason why we pay her the big bucks I guess.


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

I've never known a trainer to not get on a student's horse. The most important reason is to demonstrate to the student what something should look like and/or help the horse learn if it's having difficulties. You can tell someone what to do all day long, but if their timing is just a little off or they just aren't giving the cue correctly, what good does it do? I've worked with middle-of-the-line up to top notch trainers and they ALL have ridden the horse whether the student requested it or not.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Some times the horse needs a little nudge from a better rider (trainer/coach) who knows their business. That nudge can give the horse an idea of what is being asked by the rider. Then, when the rider gets the horse back, it is easier for them to get better results, too. 

A coach who refuses to get on a horse and says that they can *always* address problems from the ground is condemning the horse and rider to a longer struggle, IMO. The trainer can help the horse understand, then coach the rider to do the same on a horse who is starting to "get it". It makes for a MUCH shorter learning curve and a lot less fighting between the team.

I think the refusal to ride a student's horse is more of a confidence/esteem issue. Some trainers are just terrified of being made to look bad by a misbehaving horse.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Allison Finch said:


> Some times the horse needs a little nudge from a better rider (trainer/coach) who knows their business. That nudge can give the horse an idea of what is being asked by the rider. Then, when the rider gets the horse back, it is easier for them to get better results, too.
> 
> A coach who refuses to get on a horse and says that they can *always* address problems from the ground is condemning the horse and rider to a longer struggle, IMO. The trainer can help the horse understand, then coach the rider to do the same on a horse who is starting to "get it". It makes for a MUCH shorter learning curve and a lot less fighting between the team.
> 
> *I think the refusal to ride a student's horse is more of a confidence/esteem issue. Some trainers are just terrified of being made to look bad by a misbehaving horse*.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I find these photos to be an interseting demonstration of how the rider's position affects the horse. 
Rider #1 is leveraging herself up from her knee, she has not connection to her stirrup and does not have her leg lined up under her to carry herself. Consequently, she is behind the motion of the hrose and is depressing his forward. Add that to her downward pulling arms and the hrose is very much pulled into a ball of resistance. 

Rider #2 is lined up right over her stirrup, is posting off of her whole leg, bending and absorbing the motion and carrying herself over the hrose, and in fact riding the crest of the hrose's motion, maybe even slightling in front of that wave, but not trailing behind it , as is rider 1.

Once rider 1 is lined up more correctly, she , too gets better action from the horse. Though, she might do well to shorten her stirrups one notch.

But rider position is everything.
















Allison FinchAt a clinic I taught in Canada a student brought a horse with a serious resistance problem.
[IMG said:


> http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w162/allisonfinch_photos/Canadian%20clinic%20May%202011/Impulsionplease.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> It was a study in frustration for both horse and rider. I got on to see what was going on. Simply watching from the ground doesn't always give to a clue at the the subtlety that may be required to help. Within minutes I figured out what was going on and how to fix it.
> 
> ...


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

waresbear said:


> My coach never gets on a horse, ever. Like Anabel's, she knows exactly what is happening before I can feel anything. I thought I was the "special" one she was so attuned with, but nope. I watched a few other of her students, she picks up on stuff before it happens. Reason why we pay her the big bucks I guess.


 
Some really experienced coachs can do this. It seems like Cinny's coach might not fall in that category.

I find it nice to have my coach get on on occasion to show what my mount is capable of . It can be both intimidating, because it means I am holding that horse back, and inspiring to see what we will be able to do one day.


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## Strawberry4Me (Sep 13, 2012)

My trainer gets on my horse occasionally just to make sure that she isn't misunderstanding what the horse is trying to say. She also will get on so that I can either see what the task at hand SHOULD look like, or put my hand between her leg and the horse to understand the amount of pressure I should be using. 

She has refused a few times as well. She is also a very busy woman between tarining people and training horses, so when she does refuse it's because she doesn't want to start something that she might not have time to finish. She is very much the type to start working on something, and will continue until she's accomplished enough to end on a good note, and feel like the horse has accomplished something. 

I don't know what I would do if I had a trainer that never got on my horse. We have had Eric Horgan and Lendon Gray hold clinics at the farm and I have seen both of them occasionally get on a student's horse. We have Jan Ebeling cominf next week, and I bet he even occasionally gets on a student's horse.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

S4M unfortunately its likely Jan wont have even brought his boots. He does ride clients horses, but not at clinics as he, like most high level riders, will not risk getting on strange horses.

My coach has ridden in 2 Olympics and a WEG, her refusal to ride strange horses has extremely little to do with a confidence issue and a lot to do with a not wanting to get piled issue. She's ridden enough crazy horses to be happy keeping both feet on the ground while instructing. Same with 95% of high level coaches.

I would like waresbear's post but I'm on my phone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I find it extremely beneficial for a coach to get on my horse. If I am struggling, I will always ask if they can get on and show me what they mean. Getting on after having somebody with 10x the experience of myself has ridden, gives a great feel. I can them go home again and work on getting that feel back. I know what I'm aiming for. 

I have numerous clinics and generally find that it's a 50/50 split of coaches who will ride, and those who will not. 
The most recent clinician I went to did not ride, however the one before that rode nearly every horse to give the owner a feel and a visual of what the horse is actually capeable of doing.


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## Strawberry4Me (Sep 13, 2012)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> S4M unfortunately its likely Jan wont have even brought his boots. He does ride clients horses, but not at clinics as he, like most high level riders, will not risk getting on strange horses.
> 
> My coach has ridden in 2 Olympics and a WEG, her refusal to ride strange horses has extremely little to do with a confidence issue and a lot to do with a not wanting to get piled issue. She's ridden enough crazy horses to be happy keeping both feet on the ground while instructing. Same with 95% of high level coaches.
> 
> ...


I dont expect him to ride anyones horse here at the clinic. I just said that I bet he even rides his students horses. Which I am sure he does. It took A while before my trainer would get on my horse too. My horse lives here, and she had to do some work with her from the ground for a few weeks first. She finally was successful at long lining, and then my trainer got on her. Now its no big deal, but its like you said, her not wanting to get hurt. She kind of needs to be healthy so she can coach our team!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Cinny, 

The "legs holding you on like a seat belt" thing makes me think your trainer has very little experience in dressage, or is confusing it with hunter seat riding. 

A lower leg with constant frictional grip (NOT muscular grip, actively squeezing) is one of the hallmarks of hunter seat riding BECAUSE the rider's seat is not in the tack 75% of the time and is not used as an aid. 

Two things can keep you on the horse through unexpected leaps, bucks, shies and spins, assuming good design of position 1.) frictional grip in lower leg - think of the best upper level jumpers and eventers, and their leg in the air over fencess and 2) a really soft, supple following seat with no resistance and tension - think of a GP dressage rider riding a huge extension sitting or a western rider on a cutting horse really getting low on a cow. Different disciplines use these two components in varying degrees. 

According to the dressage instruction I received, you do NOT ride dressage with the same firm grippy leg that you do hunter seat. First of all, your seat is in the saddle and being actively used as an aid, so it is not necessary to keep you in the tack. Second, overdoing the grippy leg can lock your joints and push your up out of the tack. Third, in order to use the full range of aids necessary for dressage, you must be able to take your leg on and off at will, and use dozens of gradiations between on and off. (It is also not correct to ride with your lower leg constantly off the horse's side, BTW) 

When I first began taking dressage lessons, the instructors always loved my rock solid lower leg and that I rode forward assertively, but then would immediately have to work on opening and relaxing my joints, releasing pressure in the stirrup, flexibility and taking the leg on and off at will. 

If a hunter seat leg is like a piece of uncooked spaghetti resting on the horse's side, a dressage leg is like overcooked spaghetti (not even al dente!) - same basic position, still resting on the horse's side at times, but relaxed, limp, draped and able to move with the horse. 

The fact that your current instructor keeps preaching lower leg on and actively gripping makes me think she doesn't understand even lower level dressage, and if she's even seen correct dressage seat riding, doesn't understand the body mechanics involved. 

Two more points - the scenario you describe with Cinny shooting forward when you apply leg means you're allowing Cinny to train you, not the other way around. He has been very effective at teaching you to take your leg off by shooting forward. What needs to happen when he shoots forward is that you keep the exact same leg pressure and increase the contact until you get the correct response. If this creates resistance (it will!) put him on a circle and push him on to the outside rein, but under no circumstance relax or lessen the leg aid. He'll figure it out. 

Your taking your leg off when he shoots forward, or failing to block his shooting forward, is reinforcing/rewarding the wrong response. 

I understand this is incredibly frustrating, and I agree with you that it would invaluable for you to see someone else ride Cinny forward into contact correctly. I would love to see you send him to a real dresage trainer and get him correctly started working in a frame, I think you progress much faster. 

I on a 50/50 split about trainer's riding. I absolutely take anabel's point, above. But I rode a lot of my students horse's, and usually learned something from the experience and was better able to help them. I have seen some Olympic level clinicians ride student's horses (George Morris will often get on a student's horse at a clinic to demonstrate something; I saw Karen Lende O'Connor get on and school a stopper at a clinic.) 

But I think you've grabbed the wrong end of stick with particular complaint. The issue isn't that your instructor won't ride your horse, it's that it's likely *that she doesn't know how.*


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

If a horse is always "on" he may be OK. Most will build resistance. If your instructor wants to talk to you, a proper halt is fine.. but you don't see Dressage horses or even exhibition horse (like Spanish Riding School) spending long periods of time in a "parade Halt." 

If your hands present a brick wall and your legs are a vice you will have one of the following two results:

The horse will become over the bit and learn to ignore your leg.

The horse will climb the wall.. and show resistance by trying to get out of the trap he is in.. often by rearing or going sideways. 

Methinks the OP needs a different barn and a different trainer. Horses are not robotic....


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

> the issue isn't that your instructor won't ride your horse, it's that it's likely *that she doesn't know how.*


this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Wow, I am gettng so much great information from this thread. Thank you so much everybody. I agree... my trainer isn't exactly...um... well....She is great for some things, mainly getting a scared person who has never been on a horse to fall in love with riding, and working with the kids but she does have her barriers. Cinny has been sort of on hiatus since our show in August and I probably will just keep it that way until I find better instruction. Unfortunately working with a different trainer means moving from my barn...which is an option but not in the near future.

I have been actively searching for the right trainer or coach. Most of the ones I really like are full up. Most of the stables in our area are too as most people who don't normally board have been shoving their horses into the full serve boarding facilities so that they don't have to worry about finding food for their horse...it's someone else's problem. I have only found 1 with openings and in an area where the normal full serve board is 300 average....they are charging 750....it is in a great Dressage program and does include 1 lesson a week but... it's stiff. That would be like me suddenly taking 1 lesson a week at 100 bucks a lesson...of course hubby says NO 

As I agree with EVERYBODY about the seatbelt thing, and giving a horse periodic breaks...that is what I will continue to do. Why should Cinny only get to stretch if I decide to work on our free walk or stretchy circles? Not fair poor boy. And if I'm standing around gabbing with someone there is no reason why he can't just kick it while he waits for me to finish...it's not like we are in some Parade or Demonstration or something.

Right now I feel that I have been having an uphill battle in getting Cinny to relax under saddle in the first place. I know if I rest my calves but don't squeeze, he will stay relaxed and I think I want to go back to this riding style. Yes he needs a little desensitizing but like most here, I don't think I need to ride with my legs clamped on him...it's REALLY hard to post that way too.

I have so much to think about.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

maura said:


> But I think you've grabbed the wrong end of stick with particular complaint. The issue isn't that your instructor won't ride your horse, it's that it's likely *that she doesn't know how.*


I have worked with 4 coaches since I got Cinny. 1) was tough but I liked her, she was also a trainer, she did hop on Cinny. I would go back to her but I don't like boarding at that stable and she doesn't take trailer ins 2) after several months hopped on, I thought it was just because she was recovering from back surgery from a horse throwing her and she was scared. She rode Cinny once around the arena and that was about a week before she then told me never to tell people she was my trainer and that my riding was an embarrassment etc...some of you may have remembered that. She no longer has students and the people's who's horses she used for lesson horses pulled out too... 3) was more of a coach, and she was a decent coach I really liked her. She was like Anabel's trainer...it's like she was a horse mind reader or something. But I moved to a stable where you can't have an outside trainer and now I'm stuck with the one I have now...and the more I get to know her, but more I see her as a really GREAT 4H coach  sigh...


I so LOVE all that you said above, especially the part about Cinny training me. It all makes so much sense. I need to work on not allowing him train me. I do "rest" my calves on his flanks now...something he didn't used to tolerate but now he does, just not constant squeeze. When I ask for something that does require constant calf pressure, for instance a leg yield, here is an example of how it goes.

What I do
1) I ask for the trot
2) I give pressure with the left because I want him to go right, I do not release the pressure until I want him to stop yielding.
3) After I get a nice yield for as long as I like, I take my calf off.

What happens
1) I ask for the trot
2) I give calf pressure to move
3) He lunges forward I ask for the half halt
4) We get to the end of the arena and have to turn around
5) I trot him straight 2-3 strides
6) I give calf pressure again
7) He lowers his head and moves sideways
8) I stop the calf pressure and return to a straight line, reward my horse.

This is basically how anything that takes calf pressure happens. When I first started leg yields it would take him about 6 or 7 times back and forth before he changed from surging forward to moving sideways. Now it's 1 and on a bad day 2. If after the first couple of yields I increase the pressure with that calf he will move stronger sideways and cross his legs. On a really relaxed day when he is in a good mood we can take it further and have no forward movement in it at all. But this is rare and it all depends on how well everything else has gone.

This is just an example of how we work when there is more leg pressure involved than just gently resting my calves on him (not completely off). I don't hold tight with my legs, I rest them...I let my balance hold me on. He can spook and jump 5 feet sideways and I rarely budge or get knocked off balance. I guess I'm getting better.

Maybe I need to just go back to book and video learning for a while....and clinics. I feel like when I read something like "Feeling Dressage" "A gymnast riding system mind, body and spirit" I get a lot more of the "how it should go" explanations and feel like my workouts with Cinny are more productive. Is learning this way and then riding at clincs when a good clinician is in town bad?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Is there anyone around with a dressage school horse that could give you lessons? It seems like you are both learning dressage and at the same time trying to train your horse in dressage, which seems like it would slow you both down by a factor of 10 or so...

No offense to you or your horse intended...I've got ample experience at being a new rider on a horse that is learning basic riding. We're making progress, but it sure makes a steeper hill to climb!


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## Cougar (Jun 11, 2009)

My old horse Cougar I had to relearn everything on. He was a "difficult" horse and he was not an easy ride. The only trainers I ever had any success with would ride him every time they were there for 5-10 minutes before I would get on. I know that even being 9 months pregnant I will hop on my sister's little horse to get a feel and better explain something to her.

I don't know if I would require a trainer to ride one of the two we currently have. They arne't very complicated and I think I could take direction pretty well from a trainer only on the ground. A horse like Cougar? I really appreciatted the two ladies that helped me work through his issues getting on him and telling me what was him, what was me, and what we needed to do to sort it out.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

bsms said:


> Is there anyone around with a dressage school horse that could give you lessons? It seems like you are both learning dressage and at the same time trying to train your horse in dressage, which seems like it would slow you both down by a factor of 10 or so...
> 
> No offense to you or your horse intended...I've got ample experience at being a new rider on a horse that is learning basic riding. We're making progress, but it sure makes a steeper hill to climb!


No offense taken, I think that is a great suggestion. That is part of my search. So far the only DRESSAGE coach/trainer with lesson horses that has openings is an hour drive away. We are shopping around more in the area but I think at this point I might do it. She also takes trailer ins..but I don't have a truck/trailer...it's in the future plans, however. Most of the lesson stables in this area are 4H stables, lessons with 4H coaches, and well...it's great if you are a kid who wants to do 4H.

In a perfect world I would find a boarding stable with an on site DRESSAGE trainer (not 4H coach, etc) that gives lessons on her horses as well as your own. Can coach, and knows how to work on the horse as well.... I did find that perfect place/trainer but it's the one I mentioned above LOL...too pricey. My first stable had almost that, the trainer/coach didn't have lesson horses. Also, something about the atmosphere there, Cinny was a big ball of anxiety while he was there. Cinny has matured a lot since then and I might try going back there but I want to see what else is out there first.


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## Cougar (Jun 11, 2009)

Its hard isn't it? I swear finding a husband is easier than finding a trainer that matches you and your horse.


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## 4everiding (Jul 3, 2012)

It is very difficult to find a good trainer (who is also a good teacher) and a nice barn to board at. 

Good luck in your search and be patient, sometimes the best things come from not so ideal situations.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I just wanna say, that as a spectator, I have also learned a lot from the detailed advice of some of the folks here. Gave me a lot to think about, too.


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## 4everiding (Jul 3, 2012)

I agree with Tiny! Lots of good advice on this thread.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Cougar said:


> Its hard isn't it? I swear finding a husband is easier than finding a trainer that matches you and your horse.


*giggle* and Like!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Be careful of clinics. If you are learning from one good instructor, stick with that. The issue with clinics is the technique taught may work fine for the clinician and for that small segment of time it is a good thing to do (this is taking a working spot). However, if you need "more" from the clinician, they are gone and you are there. 

Better to find (lots of luck on that.. ) a good, competent, instructor/trainer and stay with that one if they work out. As you have found out, not all do. Lots of ppl say, "Oh I am a horse trainer" and then you are disappointed because their skill set is not there. 



> I have been actively searching for the right trainer or coach. Most of the ones I really like are full up.


There is a reason they are full up. Get your name on their waiting list..... and then do you best...


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## Fudgelove (Jul 10, 2011)

Anytime I am having an issue that I cant fix or my tainer wants to see if its me or not she will hop on. Also if she wants to see if Fudge is capable of something before we do it or to see if an issue is me or him. Anytime I ask she will too. But she will NOT just ride/ train him for me she teaches us how to train our horses which I think is cool! But not all trainers are like MAndy. My old trainer I had for 2 years never even sat on my horse.


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## StarfireSparrow (Jan 19, 2009)

This thread is a great example of why I like this site! The measured input from so many different walks in the horse world is a great way to learn things without having to spend years and years making the mistakes yourself first! Tons of great advice and observations in this one. I really enjoyed it.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I just wanna say, that as a spectator, I have also learned a lot from the detailed advice of some of the folks here. Gave me a lot to think about, too.


This is why I like going to some of the bigger shows where I know a lot of the great trainers will show up and hang out at the warm up ring......and eavesdrop all day. I can see the problem, see what the coach says to fix it, etc...the whole interaction. I have learned quite a few tricks that way myself as well as which trainers I like the style of, etc. You can kind of figure out who you would work with and who you may not before they even know you are interested in a trainer and try to "sell" themselves to you.

I am on waiting lists of a few of my favorites as well as a few other barns. I have decided that my next move will be to either a place where one of the trainers I like is there on site or will allow me to bring in an outside trainer (like my last barn).. as well as be a place where my trainer will go. My last barn I could bring in outside trainers BUT my trainer refused to go there do to bad history with the owner's wife....it didn't matter to her that they divorced and the lady never stepped foot on the place...she would not go there for anything.

And I agree with MysterySparrow... what I thought was a simple question has turned out to be a great thread to learn from. I didn't open up a can of worms, I opened up a can of knowledge


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

I was just thinking about it, not many of my previous instructors have got on my horse and I wouldn't see the need to do that. 

I'm going to lessons to fix "me and horse problems" not just "me" problems and not just "horse problems". I don't really care what they can do on my horse I care what I can do on my horse. If my horse doesn't know something I don't want someone else to get on them and teach them, I want them to teach me to teach my horse. For them to get on to see the "horse problems" isn't what I want because the horse problems are my problems. They're all my problems. 

Also, I have had a couple of instructors who "demonstrated" something on my horse. To be honest that does nothing for me. I imagine this is because of the way I learn, but for me to understand and process something I have to either do it or read it. Seeing it is not nearly enough, I get nothing out of it. 

So that's just how I feel, but if you want the instructor to ride thats fine, but I don't think it should be to identify horse problems. Things like aids, you've just got to work out, find the minimum aid needed for something. If you don't like the way your instructor does things, then get a new one.


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

What a thread! Lots of good advice. The advice I would give is simply this:

Don't forget who is paying whom! The trainer is your employee. If you don't like what the trainer is doing, FIRE her. Get another trainer. Find one who is sensitive to your needs and willing to help with the horse's training. If your trainer is only capable of training the rider, she's not qualified as a trainer in my book.

I learned this lesson years ago while I was getting my Instrument Rating as a private pilot. I had an instructor who felt a little sarcasm was a good way to get his points across. With me under high stress and full concentration, what I needed was some coaching and instruction, not sarcasm. After about our third flight, I told him what I thought about his methods of instruction in fairly explosive terms. He gave a strong, sincere apology, and we were fine after that. Don't forget who is paying whom. It's your money. Get your money's worth and don't be shy about demanding performance from your trainer. If they bow up at it, get another trainer who suits your needs and learning style better.

Now from the trainer's perspective, if you don't like the student speaking their mind to you, then you can decide whether you need the money that badly. There must be accommodation from both sides.:-|


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## Horsey and Holistic (Jun 30, 2011)

One of the only times my trainer will get on a horse is if I ask her to demonstrate for me. She has no problem, and its not that she can't explain it well enough, I just find that seeing her do something helps me learn it better. She'll also explain to me all she is doing while performing the movement. Whether or not a trainer gets on your horse should tell you a lot about their training versatility. Everyone learns things differently and if that trainer can explain something five different ways or show you four different ways, its going to be easier for a student to understand. I don't see how a trainer that wants to get on would be considered un experienced, I think its great.


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## Amanda B (Aug 15, 2012)

No one has any business calling themselves a riding instructor if they don't know how to train a horse. Ever heard the expression "You are training the horse every day?" Every interaction with a horse involves training, for better or for worse. So whether you are calling the person giving you lessons a trainer or an instructor shouldn't matter. 

Being able to see exactly what is going on with a horse and rider, and not needing to get on, only works once the horse and rider have both achieved a basic level of training. The OP's horse isn't there yet. Prior to reaching that point, you can't tell from looking whether (for example) tightness in the mouth/jaw is the result of tightness in the back, or vice-versa. Multiple things are gong on, but you often can't tell visually which is the root cause.

Even if they were beyond that point, some riders learn best by seeing, in fact, studies show 65% of the population are visual learners. Showing the rider what to do is the most effective and efficient way of teaching these people. You can tell them all day what to do,and they won't get it, or you can get on for 5 minutes and show them and they have an epiphany. 

I, on the other hand, learn best by feeling. 5 minutes of sitting on a student's horse gives me more information than hours of conversation or watching. When I first get on, the horse tells me how it is used to being ridden, so I instantly know the strengths and weaknesses of the rider's communication with the horse. Then the horse tells me about it's previous training. Then it tells me what I need to get the rider to do differently. 

When the rider gets back on, he/she first feels what their horse should feel like, if they were riding the way they should be, so they know what the goal is. They feel how nice it is, which is motivating  and they know that I know how to make it happen which builds trust.

The feedback I get from my students is that watching me ride is hugely beneficial to them. Since they pay me to do what works for them, I ride! Especially since it also makes my job easier. 

BTW, if I don't feel safe getting on a particular horse, I sure as heck don't want a less experienced rider on them either, so the riding lesson turns into a groundwork lesson, and remains so until the horse is safe enough to get on.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Amanda makes an excellent point. 

What may be valid for a rider/trainer at anabel's level (Very well schooled horse and rider working at the FEI level) is not valid for a horse and rider combo struggling with the foundation concepts. 

It is enormusly frustrating and counterproductive for the rider to be trying to teach the horse something that they've never truly experienced or felt themselves; and no matter the caliber of the person on the ground trying to explain it to you, no explanation can take the place of seeing it, feeling it and experiencing it for yourself. 

And I don't mean to entirely bash your current instructor, Cinny. She is trying to help you in the only way she knows how, and she may perfectly competent in her niche. However, her niche is not your niche and not where you want to go with your horse and your riding. It's apparent from what you've written that's not competent in the area of dressage, and isn't helping you overcome Cinny's training issues.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I haven't always been an FEI level rider when riding with my coach. ;-) 

IMO it still stands that a good coach can see what's going wrong. She teaches people who don't canter or can't get their horse round in her clinics and never sits on the horse and they improve leaps and bounds. Only coaches without a solid understanding of the biomechanics is going to have to ride the horse to see/feel what's going on. I'll admit I am still here myself, but I don't have the 45 years of coaching experience and 50 years of rising experience that my coach does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with Amanda and cannot better what she says.

I have had lessons with the best - including Franz Rochowansky and he was never against riding a pupils horse.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

One of my favorite clinicians is Jen Hamilton. She coached the NZ Three Day Olympic Team. She was one of the first students of George Morris... the list goes on of her qualifications.

She will never get on a horse at a clinic. Now granted shes had a few injuries that stop her from being able to ride now. 

I also have taken clinics with some big name dressage trainers and they refuse to get on a students horse.

A lot of coaches/clinicians don't ride horses they don't know anymore. Mainly because the risk of injury is to high.

If I want someone to ride my horse I will take it to a trainer. Not a clinician or coach. To me there is a difference. A clinician/coach should know how to train a horse, no question about it. But that doesn't mean they need to jump on every horse they come across. A good coach/clinician should have the ability to see the issue from the ground and talk the student through the issue. If they can not see the issue or even have an idea of where the issue is, they should not be coaching. 

Some of the greatest riders out there have zero ability to teach. And the best ones will admit it. 

You can be a strong rider and have no teaching ability. Just as you can be a strong coach and not have the best riding ability. 

When I teach it is rare for me to get on a clients horse. I have had to many bad injuries and have health issues. I can't risk being a lawn dart and eating arena dirt. 

I don't know where I am going with this other then the fact that some people just can't do both. But it does not mean they can't do one without the other.


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## Whisper22 (Jan 2, 2011)

I am not a trainer and the only lessons I took were with a friend of a friend who did it on the side for extra cash. She charged $10 for a 30 min lesson but did take the 5 min to jump on my horse to "get a feel for what she was working with". I don't know if that's customary or not, but seems like from most of these posts, it is. My thought is that it seems like common sense for a TEACHER to be able to demonstrate what they are asking from the student if that's what the student is saying they need. It actually seems a little arrogant for a teacher to say they don't need to because they have the skill to just look at you and know exactly what's going through your mind and body as well as the horses, an animal. If the problem is how the student is riding, and not the horse, then why not give an example of what they SHOULD be doing compared to an example of what they WERE doing.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

There are really two separate issues being discussed in this thread, one general and one specific, and they're getting muddied together. 

In *general*, is it important that a coach be able to ride and school their student's horse's through training problems? IMO, the answer is, not really. It's nice if they can, it may come in handy at times, but is it necessary? Nope. And I will go further to say it gets *less* necessary the more advanced or capable the student is, and the more developed the eye of the coach. I never cared whether or not a clinician or coach could or would ride my horse, I cared if their methods were understandable and getting results. However, my students LOVED it when I schooled their horses, and it usually helped me help them. I really don't think my eye or ability to see what was happening from the ground was deficient, and sometimes my being able to push the horse through its resistance enabled the student to get back on and be immediately more successful. (This may all be because of the difference in discipline as well, I don't know.) 

And to piggyback on NB's idea above, there's a very succussful partnership locally that's one rider and one coach working together. He just rides, never teaches, she just teaches, never rides. They work in their particular strengths, and they work extemely well together. 

However, in *specific*, Cinny's Whinny started this thread out of frustration because she doesn't understand what her coach is asking, is not sure if it's correct, and in any case, can't get her horse to go along with the program. We have an aspiring dressage rider who has not had the opportunity to solidify her riding on a schoolmaster or feel what a horse correctly put together is like, riding an anxious, resistant, green-in-dressage horse. Trying to teach a green horse to go on the aids when you've never really felt a horse correctly on the aids, but have only had it described to you? YIKES! How frustrating! It would be frustrating even on a correctly started horse with no resistance, because you wouldn't recognize the correct responses and reward appropriately. But on an anxious, resistant horse? Wow, that's difficult. IMO, it would be a VERY GOOD idea for someone else to get on this horse and help him through his resistance and barriers, "show him the way to the aids", all while telling Cinny what they're doing and what they're feeling. THAT would a huge help. 

As interesting as this discussion has been, I doubt that anybody participating doesn't think it's a good idea for a more experienced rider and trainer to get on this horse to help out both the horse and rider.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

I will admit I didn't read this thread in full so I must have missed key points a bit later in the thread.

If it is a matter of the coach and student not being able to fix the issue together then there very well could be crossed wires. Not every coach works for every student.

If there is an issue with getting the desired results then maybe it is time to get a coach or trainer who will get on the horse and figure out what is going wrong where. 

I think I am going to have to go back and read the whole thread now. I have no other plans for the day so I might as well lol.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

maura said:


> However, in *specific*, Cinny's Whinny started this thread out of frustration because she doesn't understand what her coach is asking, is not sure if it's correct, and in any case, can't get her horse to go along with the program. We have an aspiring dressage rider who has not had the opportunity to solidify her riding on a schoolmaster or feel what a horse correctly put together is like, riding an anxious, resistant, green-in-dressage horse. Trying to teach a green horse to go on the aids when you've never really felt a horse correctly on the aids, but have only had it described to you? YIKES! How frustrating! It would be frustrating even on a correctly started horse with no resistance, because you wouldn't recognize the correct responses and reward appropriately. But on an anxious, resistant horse? Wow, that's difficult. IMO, it would be a VERY GOOD idea for someone else to get on this horse and help him through his resistance and barriers, "show him the way to the aids", all while telling Cinny what they're doing and what they're feeling. THAT would a huge help.


YEs, this is it and.. someone to say "Cinny is doing this.... I am correcting it by doing this..." As well as maybe see if the hand movement is or is not a lot him and what things he likes to fix it. I've been playing with little things with my reins and I have found that in the canter her likes me to gently "massage" the outside rein with his movement... If I do this he will fill my outside rein on our circles and well as relax his head into the bridle and not GRIND his teeth. I haven't found his little pacifier for the trot though.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

After taking the time to read all of the posts, it is clear to me that your horse and YOU are both pretty green. I know times are tough and money is tight, but you REALLY need to be taking lessons on a finished horse. I did my lessons on them to start with, and it taught me what I wanted in my own horse(s).
YOUR horse needs a trainer. You are learning together and we know that green + green doesn't turn out well. I can SEE why you want your trainer to ride your horse. 
Now to bore or reiterate, but (27 years ago) I bought my horses to retrain who had been trained for riding--only one that was green, initially--and I "retrained" them to do the jobs I needed. For instance, many were broken to Western and I taught them to direct rein, jump and desensitized them to gunfire and lots of other things. They all had more training than your horse currently has, and they were worked for OVER 1,000 (that's one thousand) hours every year. Fully broken, or, didn't work out and sold.
You don't know what to expect in your horse. As I train my 6yo geldings I DO know what I expect when I use my weight, my reins, and my legs. I know how much pressure to use, and when to push hard, and when to stop bc the lesson has been learned.
IMHO, many excellent trainers Can tell what the problems are without getting aboard. And, YES, many excellent riders are so many years away from their first rides that they throw students into hard situations and badger them to just figure it out, simply bc teaching is a skill, and it takes time away from their training and showing. I have heard both George Morris and Clinton Anderson say that they were not natural riders, but had to really work at their riding, and perhaps that is why they both have excellent advice for the rest of us.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

*One more thing...*

Trainers that train, retrain and sell produce a generic horse that most people can handle, even perhaps a little on the dull side for new or nervous riders. When you train for yourself or for a family member (like I am with my big lug, left) you tailor the training of your horse. My DH wants his horse to ride on a loose rein, wants a horse that neck reins, and wants a quiet horse. I can do that for him. I prefer, for ME, a horse that is light on my leg, and I like light contact with their mouth, plus I often change my rein length while I ride. I want to dispel a myth: you should not train your horse to spook when your leg touches their side. Sooner or later that horse will be ridden for hours, either in training or trail riding, and NOBODY can maintain no contact for a 6 hour trail ride by pressing their weight in their stirrup to keep from touching their horse's side. It is just like ballroom dancing. The leader maintains a light touch constantly, but presses the hand and shifts the weight to get his partner to move away from him, or towards him in the dance. It is impossible to ride a horse bareback, as the first riders did, as Xenophon did, and not touch your lower legs on the horse. Your horse has holes in his education if he reacts violently to your lower leg touching him, and I recommend against this type of training.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> IMO it still stands that a good coach can see what's going wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't disagree with that at all. 

I have no problem seeing what is going wrong, sometimes though the rider (especially beginners, timid adult riders & children) will struggle to get the desired result through the correction or exercise given. I can't expect a 10 year old kid to have the same quiet hands, leg and seat control that I have nor can I expect them to master things immediately to fix a problem. However, hopping on their horse for a few minutes and working through the correction, explaining verbally what I am doing with which aids helps those that are more visual learners and puts them on a faster track to fixing whatever it was we were working on. That being said, I am a horse trainer first, instructor second so it's no big thing for me to hop on random horses. It is pretty rare that I need to but I think it's a benefit for my students that if they should need it, I am willing. 

Something in the equation with Cinny isn't working. I think getting a quality trainer on his back to see where his issues lie to come up with a game plan would benefit him greatly.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Sahara said:


> If she is a riding instructor, I would never expect her to get on your horse.


I will do as Cinny said - get on the horse to see if the horse knows 'how' before I expect the student to understand what I am asking.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> I haven't always been an FEI level rider when riding with my coach. ;-)


Really?:wink:



> *Only coaches without a solid understanding of the biomechanics is going to have to ride the horse to see/feel what's going on*.


I find this shortsighted and quite offensive.

I get on my students horses not because I can't see what is going on, but to help the horse understand what the rider is asking in the first place. I will also get a clue as to what approach works best for THIS horse. You see, Anebel, just like people, horses can learn in many different ways. While I may know what is going on with the "biomechanics", what may not be so obvious (since horses are not cookie cutters) is what approach will make the horse understand better what is being asked.

I am SURE your coaches know that there are many different ways to approach a problem. Timing of cues, strengths of clues are all different with different horses. My getting on not only gives the horse a glimmer of what we want, but gives me a clue as to the best approach to teach the student.

If your coaches don't want to get hurt, THAT I understand. But to say those of us willing to risk it for the help it can give to both horse and rider are ignorant? Well, now you have me riled. :-x


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## 4everiding (Jul 3, 2012)

You are so right Allison. 

Horses are not machines and they all learn differently.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

For years now I have been wanting to ride with Allison Finch... I need to drag her to my neck of the woods. One of these days...

Okay back to your regularly scheduled debate... I will go back to plotting my kidnapping of Allison...


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

NB, let's take a road trip. She still owes me a ride on Lil' Brother for a saddle pad. :wink:


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## BarrelracingArabian (Mar 31, 2010)

My trainer has no problem hoping on for me and showing me what ahe means if i am having trouble. Sometimes thats what it takes especially for new riders or riders new to the certain way the horse is ridden.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

NB, I will be teaching a clinic in Ontario this November. Due to my crazy schedule, we are still haggling over the actual dates. The organizer doesn't mind late notices for the riders in the area. She doesn't have too much trouble filling slots.


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> If your coaches don't want to get hurt, THAT I understand. But to say those of us willing to risk it for the help it can give to both horse and rider are ignorant? Well, now you have me riled. :-x


I'll keep my "ignorant" trainers. 

My current trainer is not able to ride as she is recovering from extensive surgery. I was struggling and struggling and struggling and both myself and my horse were only getting more and more frustrated, so she pulled me off and put my previous trainer on him (I "outgrew" my previous trainer and moved on to working with her trainer, at her suggestion). She would have hopped on herself if she was able to (and clearly expressed how disappointed she was that she couldn't jump on and give my [email protected]#$% horse a good schooling!) but she wasn't, so she chose someone who has ridden my horse more times than I can count and is a much better rider than myself and she coached her through getting my horse to get over himself and BEHAVE!  I still learned how the techniques, first I watched the other rider execute them and deal with my naughty horse, then I got on and had to do so only his tantrum was 1/10th the intensity as it had been, so I was able to confidently deal with it.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Sounds good to me! You aren't too far from me... lets meet in the middle and go kidnap her then keep her hostage in an abandoned barn. She will be our little secret :lol::lol: (where is the ninja emot when I need it? lol)


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> NB, let's take a road trip. She still owes me a ride on Lil' Brother for a saddle pad. :wink:


'Lil Brother LOVES his saddle pad! He is tacked up and ready for you. He's jumping pretty big, now and ready for you!!


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Oooo he's a very nice looking boy!


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Thanks. He is the son of the stallion I am riding in my avatar.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

He looks quite handsome in it. Next time we head to the smokies, I will leave the fam at the cabin and head your way!


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

RE my previous comment:

It's called reading comprehension. I said coaches that need to get on to know whats happening don't have a solid understanding of biomechanics. NOT anyone that gets on a horse doesn't have a solid understanding. Many coaches do understand what's happening on the ground, and then choose to get on anyways, to demonstrate something or push something through.
Can we all hop off the "leap on anebel as soon as she states something which can be construed as offensive" train now please?? I'm sick of being hounded in every thread I post in. My opinions have become no more controversial than the day I first started posting here but it seems recently that even the moderators here are disagreeing with everything I say, or finding it offensive where no offense was meant.
Please and thank you.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

mls said:


> I will do as Cinny said - get on the horse to see if the horse knows 'how' before I expect the student to understand what I am asking.


I can see when it 'could' be beneficial for a riding instructor to ride a student's horse. However, I will also add that perhaps the rider would benefit from riding a horse that can perform the maneuvers that the rider would like to apply to her green horse. The rider needs a solid foundation to build from as well. I think in Cinny's situation both the rider and the horse have holes in their training and those holes need to be filled before they can ever move forward. I don't know how having the instructor rider her horse will benefit anyone in this particular case.

And so what if the horse doesn't know how? My riding instructor has me do new things on my horse all the time. If she gives clear instructions that I follow properly my horse quickly learns what I am asking and we keep building. So, again, I don't think a riding instructor "needs" to ride a student's horse to be effective. If they want to in order to get a feel, by all means, ride away. It certainly can't hurt anything to do so.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Sahara said:


> I can see when it 'could' be beneficial for a riding instructor to ride a student's horse. However, I will also add that perhaps the rider would benefit from riding a horse that can perform the maneuvers that the rider would like to apply to her green horse. The rider needs a solid foundation to build from as well. I think in Cinny's situation both the rider and the horse have holes in their training and those holes need to be filled before they can ever move forward. I don't know how having the instructor rider her horse will benefit anyone in this particular case.


Exactly.

IMO the rider needs to be focusing on her own position right now, and not what the horse's head is doing, etc.. Without a feel, a solid position and a basic understanding of how the rider affects the horse biomechanically (through feel), it will be impossible for the rider to affect the horse positively. The rider first has to focus on getting herself to a level where she can ride in a balanced way with an effective position before she even begins to worry about the horse. In the same way the horse first must understand a balanced and feeling aid. Without having the rider up to a certain level of correctness, the horse is never going to progress or become better. We cannot just focus on the horse, blame the horse, say the horse needs to improve, etc.. until the rider is able to ride quietly and in balance with a good feel.
I don't think that someone getting on the horse for 10 minutes is going to help any rider correct her position, balance or feel as those are things which must be done with the rider in the saddle.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Sahara said:


> I can see when it 'could' be beneficial for a riding instructor to ride a student's horse. However, I will also add that perhaps the rider would benefit from riding a horse that can perform the maneuvers that the rider would like to apply to her green horse. The rider needs a solid foundation to build from as well. I think in Cinny's situation both the rider and the horse have holes in their training and those holes need to be filled before they can ever move forward. I don't know how having the instructor rider her horse will benefit anyone in this particular case.


Absolutely! I don't think the current instructor would be a good choice at all from the way it sounds. I think Cinny needs a trainer that can take him back to the bare bones basics and fill in the holes while OP takes lessons on a horse that has the knowledge. Can't get to where you want to go if you don't know what the end result should be and how to work with it. I'm not a dressage rider but this could be any discipline and the solution would be the same.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

it's a forum. We disagree from time to time. Right?


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> And, it's a forum.


This is a forum?! Oh dear I seem to be in the wrong place... I thought I was at the candy store...:shock:


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> it's a forum. We disagree from time to time. Right?


I have thought over the years that the members here are like family, we share a lot of things with each other, but like a family we disagree sometimes, but we still love each other even in the biggest disagreements.

So spread some love around :wink:


.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> Absolutely! I don't think the current instructor would be a good choice at all from the way it sounds. I think Cinny needs a trainer that can take him back to the bare bones basics and fill in the holes while OP takes lessons on a horse that has the knowledge. Can't get to where you want to go if you don't know what the end result should be and how to work with it. I'm not a dressage rider but this could be any discipline and the solution would be the same.


Sigh, this is what I THOUGHT I was getting at my current place with the coach/trainer that was there but now... Turns out the horse was more a 4H beginner horse and the jury is looking at the coach a little cross eyed. After a couple of lessons and my last show she keeps talking about making appointments for our next lesson, but never follows through. I think she doesn't want to work with Cinny and me for whatever reason but doesn't know how to just come out and say it. Instead she says "call me later and we will chat/set up your next lesson" or "text me and remind me to look at my calendar and set it up." Only when I do...she never answers. One time I asked her if she got my text and she pulled out her phone and scrolled through texts/calls and found me in the jumble. At this point, I don't care. I think Cinny and I are better going at it alone as we have in the past...along with my pals Conrad Schumacher and Jane Savoie albeit in book/video form and you guys whom some of you have proven to really be able to see what is going on, even when I don't want to admit it or believe it at the time.

Oh, and I too... would LOVE a chance to ride with Alison Fince, as well as TinyLiny, Maura and a few others... Heck, if I didn't have a toddler to worry about and knew an address for one of them, I'd find a trailer to use and they would wake up to me in their driveway one morning ha ha.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

I'd agree that you're better going it alone, with your friends Conrad Schumacher and Jane Savoie. I can recommend a few more friends if you like! 

If *any* instructor told me that I should not release the horse, I would run away. I read that sentence in some post of yours a few pages ago and my mind kind of boggled. How on earth do you train a horse without releases?

Anebel, I don't think you're being unfairly hounded, but I read your comment about trainers understanding biomechanics the same way Allison did, with similar thoughts of "What?! Did she really just write that!?" And I have a few degrees that says my reading comprehension is pretty good. You obviously didn't mean it quite in that way. Always have to remember, it's how you tell 'em. ;-)


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

That's sweet that you'd like to ride with me. My riding is pretty low level to be honest.

However, this is just a wee tiny brag. I was on Zulu yesterday watching our last pony club dressage show and a cancellation openned a spot. So, I jumped in and just did an Intro level test (I am not good at the canter on Z yet and he had never been in a dressage test before) . with zero preperation beyond 15 minutes of trot warm up, I snagged a 64 %! Now, I am tickled to death with that, but it's only the rock bottome level. I am the first to admit my basic skill level and the limits of my abilities to advise another rider.


ETA sorry for mini thread kidnap. back to the discussion . . . .


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> That's sweet that you'd like to ride with me. My riding is pretty low level to be honest.
> 
> However, this is just a wee tiny brag. I was on Zulu yesterday watching our last pony club dressage show and a cancellation openned a spot. So, I jumped in and just did an Intro level test (I am not good at the canter on Z yet and he had never been in a dressage test before) . with zero preperation beyond 15 minutes of trot warm up, I snagged a 64 %! Now, I am tickled to death with that, but it's only the rock bottome level. I am the first to admit my basic skill level and the limits of my abilities to advise another rider.
> 
> ...


Then maybe I should say ride in front of you ...then you can point out my flaws and tell me how to fix them.... coach me I guess


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Well, I had a lesson on Monday last. I almost never get lessons. Like 4 times a Year!~ and she made me drop my stirrup one hole and I still feel like it's too long for me, but she said I need to post more from my core. When I really did post from my core, it felt quite different. and very tiring. So , no matter how much dressage people say "you need to strengthen and use your core" , this made me realize how much further I need to take that to heart. I was literally sore the next day, in the muscles that run from the groin to the ribcage area (not sure the exact muscles, but not under the belly button but more on the sides, like just under the wing of each side of the pelvis, and upward.)


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

NBEventer said:


> This is a forum?! Oh dear I seem to be in the wrong place... I thought I was at the candy store...:shock:


*SNORT*:lol:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> NB, I will be teaching a clinic in Ontario this November. Due to my crazy schedule, we are still haggling over the actual dates. The organizer doesn't mind late notices for the riders in the area. She doesn't have too much trouble filling slots.


Well if you're coming north anyway, you could hop a couple of provinces west and come visit:wink:


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Allison Finch said:


> NB, I will be teaching a clinic in Ontario this November. Due to my crazy schedule, we are still haggling over the actual dates. The organizer doesn't mind late notices for the riders in the area. She doesn't have too much trouble filling slots.


Can you let me know then when and where? I might be able to create magic and take my new little project mare. Shes still rather green but she has so much potential.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> Well if you're coming north anyway, you could hop a couple of provinces west and come visit:wink:


Why don't you come a little further east! We can make a week of it!


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Cinny, sorry for the hijack. No more talk of the clinic. I will start a thread when all details are worked out.

Cinny, stay strong and committed to moving ever forward. You have already made huge improvements and I am sure you will continue to progress. 

Have you looked in your area for an accomplished trainer that you can go to every now and then? If you take lessons like a "clinic" you could work on things in between. I have students who can't afford more than one lesson every month or so. I send them home with tons of homework so that they can, hopefully, come to the next lesson with some progress.

Do you have a trailer? If you trailer out, Maybe you don't even have to tell your present trainer, to avoid conflict. I have no problem with my students going to clinics or even other instructors. I have a student who also shows hunters. I am NOT a hunter instructor and made sure she went to a good coach for that.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Allison Finch said:


> Cinny, sorry for the hijack. No more talk of the clinic. I will start a thread when all details are worked out.
> 
> Cinny, stay strong and committed to moving ever forward. You have already made huge improvements and I am sure you will continue to progress.
> 
> ...


I think this is a great idea. I would reach out for as many clinics as you can. I LOVE clinics. I am almost at the point where I don't take lessons from a regular coach anymore because I find most of the coaches in the area(except for two) don't really offer the level of coaching I need. So I am always on the look out for a clinic.

So as Allison said, look for someone that you can go to once a month or so to get some homework. Its not the cheapest option if you don't own a trailer but its still better then taking lessons from someone who isn't really giving you what you need.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> Cinny, sorry for the hijack. No more talk of the clinic. I will start a thread when all details are worked out.
> 
> Cinny, stay strong and committed to moving ever forward. You have already made huge improvements and I am sure you will continue to progress.
> 
> ...


Awesome idea...sadly no trailer, no truck to haul trailer  I have gone down the list of trainers listed on the site for Nebraska Dressage Association...all of them are full. I am on the waiting list of all that have lesson horses. There is a really great riding program an hour and a half away...I'm on their waiting list too. It seems that as soon as showing season ended everyone rushed to the trainers to get their winter work going. 

Yesterday I went to see Cinny. He has been on somewhat of a vacation with only a few "play" rides bareback...about once a week. A LOT of turnout, a lot of breaking fences, getting sprayed by skunks and well...being a horse. Anyway..I was a bit mopey yesterday and while grooming him and massaging those poor muscles on his back that the saddle messed up I was getting depressed over what had happened with the saddle and that I had TRAINED him to not round out, not use his back, not extend (every time he tried the saddle apparently hurt him and I didn't know it until the saddle fitter pointed it out). I was thinking that it's going to take me at least a year to teach him it won't hurt anymore and to untrain what had been done and get him to trust.

I decided to just do some basics and we ended up having one of the best rides we had in a long time...and I am now confident that the situation with his back isn't as bad as I thought.... You can read more here http://www.horseforum.com/dressage/i-think-cinny-i-had-ha-137995/ And my workouts at the gym have made a HUGE improvement. I think I'm going to get addicted to the ab/core machines LOL.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

If you can get a yoga ball(get the anti burst ones) there are AMAZING core exercises you can do. I am currently in physio because I took a flying lesson and dislocated my SI. My physio said if I had more core strength it never would have happened.

I currently do exercises where I sit on the ball and do hip circles, then side to side and forward and back. Then you slide down so your shoulders/head are on the ball and your hips are in line so you are almost like a table and make sure you have your pelvice straight so you are almost pulling your belly button up to your chest. It is a great work out. Also sit ups on the yoga ball are great.

I am in love with my yoga ball!!! My physio made me addicted lol. Also when you sit in a chair, don't use the back rest. Sit straight and pull your core tight and keep good proper posture. Same with walking, think of sucking it in and up!! I've been doing this for almost 3 weeks and the difference it has made is insane.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I just bought this book The Rider's Fitness Program: Dianna Robin Dennis,Johnny J. McCully,Paul M. Juris: 9781580175425: Amazon.com: Books I love it, very clear and easy instructions, good diagrams and a range of things to do to tone riding muscles.....now all I need to do is get started.

Oh you do need some equipment or access to a gym, but most stuff you can get around I think


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

NBEventer said:


> If you can get a yoga ball(get the anti burst ones) there are AMAZING core exercises you can do. I am currently in physio because I took a flying lesson and dislocated my SI. My physio said if I had more core strength it never would have happened.
> 
> I currently do exercises where I sit on the ball and do hip circles, then side to side and forward and back. Then you slide down so your shoulders/head are on the ball and your hips are in line so you are almost like a table and make sure you have your pelvice straight so you are almost pulling your belly button up to your chest. It is a great work out. Also sit ups on the yoga ball are great.
> 
> I am in love with my yoga ball!!! My physio made me addicted lol. Also when you sit in a chair, don't use the back rest. Sit straight and pull your core tight and keep good proper posture. Same with walking, think of sucking it in and up!! I've been doing this for almost 3 weeks and the difference it has made is insane.


I love my Yoga/Pilates ball. I have 2 different sizes. I sit on the big one at the computer and practice using my core to balance with my feet off the ground. I have also learned to "post" on the ball and only balance with one finger touching the wall....took me a week but I can do it. I use the smaller one for modified push ups...your slightly raised which makes it a little easier yet you have to balance while doing them working your core and for squeezing with my thighs when I watch tv which seems to be a hubby turn on too for some reason LOL. I'm going to try the ones you mentioned too...I've been looking for more things to do with them


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

NBEventer said:


> Why don't you come a little further east! We can make a week of it!



Because the world revolves around me, and you should all come here!!

OK Cinny, back to your scheduled programming:wink:


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

My trainer insists on riding the horses...she'll even have you hop off your horse and she'll get on him if she notices something she wants to try to fix. Unfortunately, she's recovering from a hip replacement surgery so she's supposed to be resting.


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