# Does God exist?



## horseoftheyear (Mar 19, 2007)

i think so......... i dont believe that she/he created the world in 7 days or the adam and eve thing or noars ark or anything like that but i do believe that there is something else after this life.............


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## kristy (Dec 8, 2006)

I didn't expect this question!


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## Dave Singleton (May 3, 2007)

:wink: It's a good conversation if people want to take part though!


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## kristy (Dec 8, 2006)

Well then Dave, what's your opinion?


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## Dave Singleton (May 3, 2007)

My opinion? Well I'm a Christian for starters which does _kind of_ tell you that I believe God exists! As for why... I have many reasons which will not exactly open this particular debate up if I give a 3 page long essay! I'm more interested in what arguments of other people are for or against God... partly because I want to see if there are any new arguments out there that challenges my beliefs or supports them further. So... Kristy?


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## meggymoo (Mar 10, 2007)

Oh. Wow. Good topic Dave. I can quite honestly say I dont know whether there is a God or not. I'd like to believe and hope there is one, but sometimes I find it hard to believe there is. If that makes sense?!?!  
There are that many horrible things that happen in this world, and with all the stories there are in the Bible, wouldnt he do something to help, or wouldn't we see miracles etc? 
My Nan use to ask me to read the Bible to her when I was a child. And I use to go to Sunday school.
My Nan firmly believed there is a God, and when I saw my Nan pass away, she had such a smile and glow on her face. She even said that the angels were coming for her.......
I'd love to think that we go to a better place after this life, but as I said I honestly do not know if I believe or not.
Am really interested about what other members have to say though.

Good topic Dave. :wink:


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## kristy (Dec 8, 2006)

Hmmmm.

Trying to answer this without writing a book is more difficult then I expected. :wink: 
I'm not a Christian therefore I don't believe in any biblical stories. Instead, I believe that they are stories based on folk lore, a way to established rules and order, or significant events of the past. (IE. Noah's Ark was not Noah's Arc but rather the flooding of the what? Dead Sea? or Red Sea? I'm more tired then I thought.) 
However, I'm not atheist due to the fact that I rely heavily on science as well. The theory that energy/matter cannot be created or destroyed interferes with the "creation" of the universe. How it came to be, I don't know. 
I also believe we have souls. But I also think that we rely and function heavily on energy. That would be where my belief in quantum physics comes in to play - hence quanta. 
I also believe things happen for a reason. I don't think things are pre-destined and we cannot change our destiny - I believe we have all control over our destiny by our choices. However, I think our choices or the way things are brought to us happen for a reason.


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## Dave Singleton (May 3, 2007)

> Good topic Dave.


Thanks!  



> I can quite honestly say I dont know whether there is a God or not. I'd like to believe and hope there is one, but sometimes I find it hard to believe there is. If that makes sense?!?!


Yup, perfectly.




> There are that many horrible things that happen in this world, and with all the stories there are in the Bible, wouldnt he do something to help, or wouldn't we see miracles etc?
> My Nan use to ask me to read the Bible to her when I was a child. And I use to go to Sunday school.
> My Nan firmly believed there is a God, and when I saw my Nan pass away, she had such a smile and glow on her face. She even said that the angels were coming for her.......
> I'd love to think that we go to a better place after this life, but as I said I honestly do not know if I believe or not.
> Am really interested about what other members have to say though.


Is it ok for me to question the first paragraph? I know some people are a bit touchy when it comes to their beliefs - I figure though from the rest of your post that you would actually like to believe fully?

If you don't ignore these paragraphs!
The problem of evil and suffering is a big problem for many people and is often a problem that many never get a satisfactory answer for - 'God has his own methods' is rarely going to win someone over who doesn't actually believe in Him for example.
The way I see it is as follows. The aim of God for us is to come to Him and accept/love Him of our own *free will*. Considering free will God has three choices:
1. He can allow all bad things to happen as in there is nothing lucky or good that ever happens. As far as free will goes this will invariably lead to noone even remotely considering God's benevolent existence or will choose to follow Him - 'He makes our life Hell; why on Earth should we follow Him?!' 
2. He can shield us from all bad so that everything is good. This leads to the problem at the other end of the scale - if everything is so brilliant why do we need God? Remember for everything to be all good everyone must be immortal as death is a suffering experience no matter how peaceful it can for the person and that person's loved ones. Remember also that much bad in this world originates from humans - if he were to prevent humans from commiting evil acts then He would be restricting free will.
3. He can allow measures of good and bad. This allows one to make an informed decision with roughly equal measures of both. You can either look at it in the way of 'many things are so good therefore God' or 'many things are so bad therefore no God' - both good and bad in this world allows you to make this choice freely.


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## Dave Singleton (May 3, 2007)

> Hmmmm.
> 
> Trying to answer this without writing a book is more difficult then I expected.
> I'm not a Christian therefore I don't believe in any biblical stories. Instead, I believe that they are stories based on folk lore, a way to established rules and order, or significant events of the past. (IE. Noah's Ark was not Noah's Arc but rather the flooding of the what? Dead Sea? or Red Sea? I'm more tired then I thought.)
> ...


It is rather difficult, yes!
As far as the biblical stories go - I agree with you in many points as far as the Old Testament goes (I am pretty liberal) in that many contain religious and symbolic truth rather than literal truth. I think some others are simply products of historians getting a bit excited by good events and then trying to explain why s*** happens for bad events. The new testament... I believe there are probably a few points that are just a tad skewed and patched; however, I choose to follow by the example of the book (Christ) rather than the book itself - this message is love and I prefer to follow that rather than a rather homophobic St. Paul for example!

Your beliefs are very much like that of a Buddhist I think you would be surprised to hear! I would really suggest that you do some reading up as I think you could really gel with their philosophies if you wanted to...

I do have to pick you up on the part of how the Law of Conservation of energy/matter disrupts with teachings of God the creator. I explain this in the following way; this is not my own philosophy I might add but someone else's which I think is rather good!
If we look back to Genesis we find that it is actually quite possible that God did not create matter and energy himself but this too pre-existed; however he did 'form' and 'shape' the universe in such a way as could easily be considered 'creation' - just not in the same manner as one would expect. I may also point out that God did still create something (matter) out of what is effectively nothing - energy is formless, massless and chargeless; practically non-existent. 
To look at Genesis:




> 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
> 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
> 
> 3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morningâ€”the first day.


As you see form the first verse it would seem obvious that God created everything. However, if you take a closer look the first verse seems more of a summary as it then goes on to actually explain the process of the 'creation'. Also if you look at the actual wording used in the 2nd verse it does actually seem oddly similar with the view of creation - nothing of substance then substance has arrived.
As a sidenote; it is possible that the universe is actually a part of God. If you look further on you will see that God need only will things to happen for it to happen - this would indicate that God has complete power of the universe which I would argue could only come from it actually being a part of God.


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## DesertGal (Apr 28, 2007)

Great topic!

Answer: Yes, definitely!  

Creation, who says in the beginning that a day and a night comprised 24 hours... Maybe they comprised a million years...? Who knows? Time was created too.  

There is proof that there was indeed a global flood... 

I have seen miracles that have no other possiblilty. As a nurse, many years ago there was a patient (premie) that had a necrotic bowel. Tests and surgery were performed, there was no hope. Three of us nurses got together and prayed over this baby. The next morning there was no sign of any necrotic bowel. The baby was very healthy. Again tests were done as, well, the Dr. was in a state of shock, the baby was not expected to last the night. There was not even a sign that it had even had this problem. As we were praying we each felt a presence, and a light touch on one shoulder as if someone had place a hand there. Our hands which were over the baby became very hot for a few seconds. Then everything went back to normal. NT: ("Where three or more are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.")

This is not isolated, there are many, many other instances, all documented. 

I understand the difficulty of believing, everything is baised on faith, and many people have difficulty with this. To believe something we can't see, feel, taste, hear... blindly with total commitment is not easy. 

For evil: Well, I believe it exists, I have felt it. I believe there are certain laws beyond our understanding that are followed. One is we all have total free will. We choose. Evil can kill us, it cannot take our soul unless we permit it. Our soul is eternal, this body, this life is finite, our soul is not. God does not "allow" or "not allow" us to be killed, things happen, people have free will. He will allow our soul to belong to him if we wish it, and after death we may go to him. He can interviene if he choses, he does not always choose to do so. Why? I don't know. Maybe the rules/laws again. Maybe there is a destiny, maybe something worse would happen to the person if he/she stayed? I can come up with lots of ideas... Doesn't really matter. I believe we are hear to learn to follow his teachings, learn to love, to forgive, to follow him. Once we have achieved this, our lives here are not so terribly important. If we belong to him, it's how we feel. I am not afraid to die. I definitely do NOT want to. But I'm not afraid to. We all will eventually...

I don't have a problem with people who don't believe, or who have other beliefs. I hope all people have a chance to believe, but after that it is up to the individual. I'm not offended. Free will.  

And this is turning into a book, so I'll quit now!


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## kristy (Dec 8, 2006)

Dave - 
Yes, I am familiar with Buddhism. :wink: 

I said things with lack of detail. I am also familiar with the Law of Conservation. I believe in a higher power and your definition of God may not be the same as mine. (Completely okay, too!) I won't comment on the last section of your reply as not to be rude but rather to keep this an open discussion with no attempts to convert or alter someone's beliefs.

*I will keep this an open thread ONLY on the basis that this thread remains open minded and no one attempts to convert another member, prove someone wrong or/and disrespect someone's beliefs. If anyone crosses this line, it will be closed without hesitation. *

I say this to everyone, not just Dave. (I'm not picking on you!) I hope this discussion remain a good one.


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## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2006)

I agree a very good topic!

For me i believe in a higher power and that a man called Jesus lived- whether he was the son of god i'm not sure.

I used to be a full christian- now after looking at diffrent beliefs etc i'm not sure.

I fully believe there is a higher power or god of some description, but i also believe in reincarnation and karma> so i guess i'm agnostic?


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## Dave Singleton (May 3, 2007)

> Dave -
> Yes, I am familiar with Buddhism.
> 
> I said things with lack of detail. I am also familiar with the Law of Conservation. I believe in a higher power and your definition of God may not be the same as mine. (Completely okay, too!) I won't comment on the last section of your reply as not to be rude but rather to keep this an open discussion with no attempts to convert or alter someone's beliefs.
> ...


That is fair enough, I was a bit hesitant by posting this topic as it does normally apply as a 'debate' and can very easily turn into a mud slinging match! I personally wont as I am somewhat of a universalist in that I believe that essentially it is 'each to his/her own religion'. I am as yet undecided as to atheism's place in my beliefs... that is curently what I am trying to get my head around! 
For clarification - if someone posts a 'problem' with actual belief in God (not specific religions) are you allowed to explain your take on it or would this be considered trying to convert?


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## Dave Singleton (May 3, 2007)

To Desertgal --- the creation story is indeed very interesting in that so many people have a different take on it! I have met people who will stamp their foot and go 'young earth creation is the ONLY way!' and then I have met people who will say the same about theistic evolution --- it seems there are little go betweens! I am personally compelled by the idea that Genesis 1 + 2 is more of a symbolic truth in that it is not so much how God created but why that is important; if you look through the text it tells you so much about God and yet so many people get hooked up on the plain boring "factual" bits.
The miracle you described by the way is pretty amazing! You only need one more to be classed as a saint when you die by the way...

[email protected] - I would say that you are a [email protected] You have devised your own philosophies that are individual to you. As far as compatibility of reincarnation/rebirth and kamma/karma goes with Christianity; you would be very surprised how easily they can match together. Sin and kamma for example are practically the same thing! As far as rebirth goes; there is evidence of it existing to a point in the Bible - I'll have to find an article on it somewhere!


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## olivia (May 17, 2007)

I believe in God. I am christian and I have a personal experience that makes me believe even more. Well for a while my dad was experienceing pains in his chest and numbness in his arm. well he said he promised God that if he felt it one more time, he would go to the hospital. Well he wa on his way to work and about to get on the bridge but he got that feeling again, so he kept hi promise to God and got off on the net exit rght before goingon the bridge and went to the hopital. As he walked in the ER with his had over his heart, he almost passed out(which is good he wasnt on the brigde when that happened) then they tok some tests and told him that what he was experienceing was heart attacks. they looked at his heart and told him that 1 of his arteries were 100 percent clogged and 4 others were 95 percent clogged. (so i could have already lost him but things got even worse...) Right before they were going to do open heart surgery, he started throwing up blood(half a bucket full!!) they realized he had a bleeding ulcer. If it would have happened 5 min when they had already started the surgery, he would have died. But they had enough time to patch up his ulcer then do his heart surgery. So God had his plan to keep my dad here. there were many ways that he could have gone but he didnt. and im glad.


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## DesertGal (Apr 28, 2007)

> To Desertgal --- the creation story is indeed very interesting in that so many people have a different take on it! I have met people who will stamp their foot and go 'young earth creation is the ONLY way!' and then I have met people who will say the same about theistic evolution --- it seems there are little go betweens! I am personally compelled by the idea that Genesis 1 + 2 is more of a symbolic truth in that it is not so much how God created but why that is important; if you look through the text it tells you so much about God and yet so many people get hooked up on the plain boring "factual" bits.


I agree! The bible was written by people a very, very long time ago. They needed to be able to understand... And at that time, many concepts were beyond their abilities... Their world was very different, and the way they percieved everything was different. So, what was told to them was told in a way they could understand and accept. 



> The miracle you described by the way is pretty amazing! You only need one more to be classed as a saint when you die by the way...


Oh my! I would like to pass on that! :shock:  But it sure did feel good to be a part of helping that baby.


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## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2006)

quote- I agree! The bible was written by people a very, very long time ago. They needed to be able to understand... And at that time, many concepts were beyond their abilities... Their world was very different, and the way they percieved everything was different. So, what was told to them was told in a way they could understand and accept. 

Desert gal- i think that is a very good way of thinking about the whole creation idea- That it was told in a way for people to accept and understand


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## Dave Singleton (May 3, 2007)

Hmm... I think it is most certainly important also to remember that 'how' really isn't that important - so many people tend to get so hung on on this question that it literally becomes a deciding factor of their faith. God is God whether or not He created in 7 days, 7 weeks, 7 years or 15 billion years or whether he created as exactly by Genesis or by the symbolic version of Genesis.

Desertgal - :lol: I forgot to add that unfortunately the full requirement is 2 miracles and to be dead... this may prove a little less desirable now! There are so many amazing miracles out there; it is almost too hard to distinguish between them + all of the "Jesus on toast miracles" seem to make the headlines when your personal story will most probably never be broadcast in any shape or form. It is sad really that the media prefer the gimmicks rather than the actual miracles which do cause you to stop and think properly.


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## Frog (May 24, 2007)

I only just opened this topic, what fun!!

I do believe in higher powers, though due to my up bringing I am inclined to believe in many and not just one, similar to ancient Greek. A god for this, a god for that. I am not strict and I'm open to all beliefs and I can't abide those who say "this is the one and only and you must believe!!!!" this is a pet hate of mine and not implied to any of the above


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## KANSAS_TWISTER (Feb 23, 2007)

great topic dave....i grew up catholic, but i am in no way a practicing catholic, yes i did go to schools run but nuns and priest (70's) i chose not to attend church, i find it offensive when a religus groups show up at my door and have been know to ask them to leave, which living in the bible belt of america is a lot.

i guess there is a lot of questions to ask on how and why most people do and don't beleave in god.

If there was/is a god? why is there war? wouldn't there be peace through out the world if there was/is one?

if there was/is a god? why are there the rich, the middle class and the poor? wouldn't god want every one to be the same?

i guess with all that i've been through in the last few months (loosing my mother to cancer,the horses and dealing with my kids) i have really fallen a stray from beleaving in him but that is my own choosing


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## latte62lover (Sep 4, 2007)

I can't say that i do believe in God. i do totally respect it though. i wouldn't go around making fun of it because thats just rude and if people want to believe something i'll let them. I don't believe in its as there is no scientific proof. how can something like that exist? To me the whole theory seems like magic and although i do personally wish i went to hogwarts (haha im just joking) i know that magic does not exist. there has been more proof that flying saucers exist and yet nobody believes that, including me. As for the theory of evolution there is proof! Scientists don't just guess. There is a reason why it is being taught in school. i hope nobody is offended by my post but that is just what i believe.


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## purest silver (Sep 3, 2007)

did you know that there is more proof that Jesus existed than Shakespeare? and Einstein believed in God by the way. and magic does exist, we call it witchcraft. a weejee board (however you spell that) is actually interacting with satan and the Exorcism of Emily Rose is a completely true story. Mary told her that she would save many people from hell by her suffering. I am a Christian and I feel so sorry for the people who aren't.


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## latte62lover (Sep 4, 2007)

im sorry you feel that way. i just don't personally believe it. but i won't try to convince anyone otherwise because i think everyone has the right to believe what they think.


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## purest silver (Sep 3, 2007)

you're sorry that i feel that way? huh no I'M sorry that you feel that way about what I believe. there is sooooo much proof. God invented miracles to prove to people who were doubting His existence.The Catholic Church has survived 2000 years. it's no ordinary church. and the news are always talking about this Church, they know that there must be something up if a Church survived so long and has only become stronger in time. I'm not talking about protestant churches, I'm talking about the Catholic church


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## mandi (Sep 1, 2007)

Well Guys, i would like to think we have a god, and beleive me there has been times where i have prayed to him and i feel he has answered my prayers, but i do sometimes feel a bit unsure, you see im a psychic and i also truely beleive that we go on to another place after this one, as there is 3 stages of life, 1 is when you are in the womb, (you cannot return) 2 is here and now, 3 is when you reach the 3rd stage, as even with number 2, i dont feel you can come back, butwith the 3rd stage you can contact people if you wish through people like me, now im well confused :lol: :lol: sorry guys rambling on, but the 3 stages do make me think about certain issues alot.


mandi xx


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## Rachluvshorses4eva (Apr 11, 2007)

I do not believe that God created the Earth. I believe in the scientific explanation, the "Big Bang Theory" when two things went BOOMT into each other and it made things, which grew and grew and grew and grew in monkey.... then humans, etc. I kind of believe in Jesus, but I do not believe that God sent him down to earth to make them understand about him. God is God, but, lots of cultures and countries have other 'Gods' too. Some have the sun as a 'God', etc, so, why is God, named, God? Is he THE God? I don't know if I believe that Jesus came back to life after he got put on the cross for death, but I kind of believe that everyone has some sort of power. Not real power power, but a power inside kinda thing. By the way, when was the Bible made? If it tells a story when Jesus lived, then did someone who saw Jesus write it? I don't think so. So how did the Bible get made? Is the things made up? Because in my eyes, the Bible was made by someone after Jesus, and just made things up about good. :? :? :? :? 

Not sure, sorry. I kinda believe in God


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## JinxXx0085 (Jul 29, 2007)

latte62lover said:


> I can't say that i do believe in God. i do totally respect it though. i wouldn't go around making fun of it because thats just rude and if people want to believe something i'll let them.


That's it right there. I'm pretty much the same thing. I don't make fun of people's religious or the religion itself. I do not like the idea of using God's name in vain either. I get annoyed when I see other people do that too. I'm do not consider myself to be a religious person but more of somewhat spiritual person. I don't attend to church for some reason that I prefer to not disclose. In general churches are great as long they don't make you to belong to that church and attend to that church only. I like being able to go to various churches. 
My brother is a devot christian and I don't quite like his ways lately. He have been putting his church at top of the list instead of family. I think he is working on that which I really hope so. I believe that FAMILY comes first and then church comes SECOND and so on.

I do not talk/pray on daily basis but I do so whenever I feel the need and I do often thank him for various things when I do that too. This thread is making me think about varioius thing in my life and other people's life. The main thing is to have positive attitude!

I think I feel better chiming in :lol:


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## keithturner (Aug 20, 2007)

Being as I am enrolled in college/seminary to become a pastor, yes there is a God. I'll make this a short story.

Just before the hurricane Katrina, 2 years before Katrina, I took my pastor's place at a hospice company. I was still not sure but took the job anyway. I was not completely convinced about God & Jesus but went to spend time with elderly people and read the Bible to them if they requested so. There were many, MANY things that brought to knowledge and full belief that He is there and is watching. I went into something not confident and a bit skeptical and came out an all believer. 

Great topic by the way....


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## Delregans Way (Sep 11, 2007)

IM not sure either. Im a Cathlic. But i only inherited it. My poppy died for 15min when he had a bad heart attack. He wan't a man who belived in God, he was totally negitive towards it. Although he said his mother and father where waiting for him. He saw this bright white light. And he heard them calling him. 

I will never forget that!!! He lost his voice 3days later and was pariseled down the right side of his body. It was horrible, the next thing i new i turned off the life support. That second a sweet smell came through the air, and a whosh of wind passed us. I knew he appoved of that decision. That still brings tears to my eyes!


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## Campdraftin_Chic (Sep 12, 2007)

Hey guys =] 

I'm a bit new here, so i I offend someone, I'm really sorry =]

I don't personally believe in God, as I believe in karma and a bit of reincarnation. What goes around comes around- you do good things, good things happen to you (Trust me, I got hit on the head with a fridge door for saying something...) I don't want everything to end after I die you know? I want to still be there, even if I don't know it...



> The bible was written by people a very, very long time ago. They needed to be able to understand... And at that time, many concepts were beyond their abilities... Their world was very different, and the way they percieved everything was different. So, what was told to them was told in a way they could understand and accept.


This I agree with, the Bible was also written a very long time ago, and the things that they needed explaining, could be normal parts of our lives now.

What I do believe in about God, is the faith He gives people. I don't easily trust people and I need proof for me to believe, but I've met people who are religious and they are happy with who they are, because they have a reason to live, because when they pass on, they will go to a safe place. 

So, to finish this, I suppose all I can say is if there is a God, if you lived a good, happy life, would He forgive you for not believing in him and let you into where ever we go after death?

Sorry if that was an epic post


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