# I'm having trouble finding PSSM info/ answers. I need help...



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy - CVM - UMEC, University of Minnesota

Here's an educational link about PSSM, it has some interesting info and tips on feeding and exercise.


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy - CVM - UMEC, University of Minnesota
> 
> Here's an educational link about PSSM, it has some interesting info and tips on feeding and exercise.


Thank you... I have no idea how I missed that...



> 13. Can my horse be cured?
> When the described diet and exercise routines were followed we found that all horses improved, and >75% of horses stopped tying-up. PSSM horses, however, will always be susceptible to this condition and if their exercise schedule is disrupted. If they become ill from other causes, they may again develop clinical signs again. If this occurs, they should go back to the fitness program described above using longeing or round pen work. Many horses with this condition are happy trail horses, successful pleasure horses, and useful ranch horses. The greatest difficulty in owning a horse with PSSM is the time commitment to keep the horse fit and the moderate expense of special feeds.


This section is what I was looking for... And not really what I wanted to read if I am reading it correctly my horse could relapse at any time. I board so while I have Otto on an exercise plan, proper diet to manage him, and did everything my vet suggested I only have so much control and sometimes I can't ride for a week here or there, and sometimes I like to ride all day! 

I get the feeling (and have been) from what I read my lifestyle may be too erratic, unscheduled, and too active for this horse to handle... 

I talked to someone that recommended finding him a home as a companion and light trail horse. At the time I shrugged it off because the horse had seemed fine up until the point where he got ill. And of course I really like him. But the more I read about it the more I think back on the little things that may have been warning signs of this disease... :-( now I'm thinking this may just be the best thing for Otto...


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Don't give up just yet! There is somebody here on the forum who is just rehabbing two PSSM horses. I'll get her to this thread.
In the meantime check Draft horse, mule, oxen power, back to the land and sustainable living - Rural Heritage online ( I think).


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

From reading the article I would think finding him a home that can ride him SOME everyday would be better than only intermittently. What I got from the article is that they are better off exercised consistently rather than intermittently. We used to call this "Monday Morning Disease" because the owner's of the horse would come out and ride on the weekends and then the horse stood all week. These horses would tie up on Monday Morning after being ridden all weekend. They did better with consistent riding and of course, now we know about dietary changes too.


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Hmm....I heard it differently how the name came about.....horses worked all week, Sunday was day off, but still full ration of feed given and Monday morning horses tied up
Both makes sense, tho;-)
Consistent work and/ or 24/7 turnout is a must for PSSM horses.


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Hello. I have been dealing with two horses in the same type of situation as far as their symptoms.

My percheron has been tested positive for EPSM. She is around 17-18 years old and I have owned her for 2 years. When I adopted her, it was the day she was to put down. She could no longer stand on her own. I didn't know, nor did anyone else, that she was EPSM positive. Her hooves were in horrible shape as well. So, it was probably a combination of the two things that made her unsound. She is also sway backed and had no topline. At the time, I attributed all of her ailments to being older and neglected, probably arthritis etc. She is also a huge horse. So, I figured her energy level was slow due to all of those factors. I have had her on the EPSM diet for a couple months now, after being diagnosed. She is also on constant turnout and gets exercise daily. The diet is messy and can be a pain, but it is something I have no choice in doing. It takes commitment.

I also have a stock pinto, the one that started me on this whole journey. I adopted her at 2 1/2. I thought her hind legs were wonky. The vet said she was just growing into her legs. She is a draft cross, so unperfect conformation was also a factor. When I tried to introduce lunging to her, it was obvious that something was so off with her. I call her 'noodle legs'. She would knuckle over the hind legs and they would get tangled up. She would bunny hop. Some people thought she was gaited. Her cadence seemed to be off all the time. It seemed like she didn't know what to do with her body and it frustrated her. I had multiple professionals look at her....vets, chiros, massage therapist, trainers etc. Nobody could pinpoint anything. Some people thought it was her neck, then her back, or her hips, or locking stifle, or stringhalt, maybe neurological....on and on. Her personality is very friendly and willing. I started her under saddle last summer and it consisted of getting on and riding. No gymnastics at all. She has not been diagnosed with EPSM, but she is being treated as such and had improvement.

With all this being said, you situation and mine are very different. I am dedicated to these two horses for their lifetimes...which will be a long time with the pinto since she just turned four. I am not looking for a speed demon or a horse to get into heavy training with or compete on. I am older just wanting trail riding horses. These two horses babysit me and I can always count on them for their temperment and not wanting to be athletic. I can trail ride for hours, do fun, non-competetive gymkhanas etc. But that is about it. I also will always have to stay on top of their getting the exercise they need and diet. When finding a boarding facility in the future I will always have to have a place where they will not be stalled.

They are great horses for the 'right' owner. That all depends on their symptoms too I guess. Mine have showed improvements with their movement, but I also know what their limitations are and stay very intuned to that....I can't follow the other trailriders cantering up and down steep hills....I have to find an alternate route or get off and lead my horse, at least at this point. I don't expect miracles with my horses' improvements, but accept all the small miracles I'm given. I would say my horses would be good grandchildren horses or husband horse (as long as he doesn't want to cowboy on them). Like I said, good trail and fun gymkhana type horses....no big expectations, especially with speed. So for someone like me, they are perfect. However, it sounds like you are needing more of a horse for what you want to do. This is all from just my experience with my two horses. Maybe there are others out there that break through this disability.


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

OP, why don't you tell us a little more about his living accommodation, his exact diet, his symptoms? Oldhorselady has a detailed feeding plan, maybe some tweaking if your horse's diet is helpful. Not trying to change your mind but sometimes one doesn't see the forest for all those trees, ya know;-)


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> OP, why don't you tell us a little more about his living accommodation, his exact diet, his symptoms? Oldhorselady has a detailed feeding plan, maybe some tweaking if your horse's diet is helpful. Not trying to change your mind but sometimes one doesn't see the forest for all those trees, ya know;-)


Otto
12 yo reg paint
15.3 hands


Symptoms: 
Uninterested, lethargic 
Clumsy, feet get tangled, trips often in soft sand footing even with IMHO great farrier work.
Tied up once while he was ill but has not tied up since then
After working he shows what I think is exercise intolerance, he goes back to just standing in one spot outside , head low, looking sad
He has tested positive for Type 1 P/N so he has it

He started showing symptoms after he was in training for a month... It seemed like the more he was ridden the worse it got... He was to the point where he lost a TON of weight and was barely standing before the vets old figure it out. We thought he wasn't going to make it.


Lifestyle right now:
He is up to date on farrier, shots, teeth done in Nov
He gets hay free choice Timothy grass hay, it's clean and looks of good quality
He gets a probiotic and vitamin e supplement daily
He gets (vet recommended) purina ultimate grain
He is barefoot too
He gets turnout at night only (just not enough room for 24/7 turnout here)
Turnout is a dry lot, no grass yet. 

That's at the trainers. He can only stay here till the weather gets bad come winter. 

Conformation could also have something to do with it? He's kinda a mess but we love him!


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

Oh btw we have an indoor at the trainers, so that really helps!

Edit: Oh, btw he stocks up in the back ALL THE TIME. You can ride him for an hour, put him up, and an hour later he is all stocks up again.
Vets says its unrelated and we are still not sure why it happens. Even with turnout he still stocks up because he just doesn't more around a whole lot.


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Sounds like you need to add fat to his diet. EPSM horses need to have 20-25% of their calorie intake from fat and low sugar starch/carb. His muscles need to be tricked into using the fat as energy to prevent the polysaccharides being stored in their muscle, which causes the muscle pain/stiffness. Diet change results can be seen in as little as a month up to a year, just all depends on the horse. Here is my mixture at the moment for my 1100lb pinto:

1lb timothy pellets
1/2lb Triple Crown Senior
1lb Nutrena Empower Balance ration balacer
1 cup Omega Horseshine
3 scoops Cool Cal-scoop comes in bag (This combined with the Omega = 1lb fat)
1lb/1 cup soy oil
2000iU natural Vit E

The point is to create a low sugar carb/starch mixture, enough to soak up the fat where they will eat it for the fat. This may be tricky at first getting them to eat it. Add fat slowly. I started using Cool Cal to be able to use less oil, but it is more expensive. However, it seems like once they start accepting it and eating it ok, they crave it with non problem. I always keep Purina Ultium in the back of my mind to maybe use later because I had really good results on that with my other non-EPSM horses. Since your horse is stalled some of the time, you may be able to pour oil on his hay and use less in feed. You need a mixture of something to be able to get them eating 2lbs/2 cups fat per day.

Here is the diet sent to me by Dr. Beth Valentine out of Oregon State University:

*EPSM (PSSM, EPSSM) DIETS*​​Designed by Dr. Beth Valentine with assistance from Drs. Harold (Skip) Hintz, Bob Van Saun, Don Kapper, and Kent Thompson​ 
*Goals:* To provide no more than 15% total daily calories from starch and sugar, and at least 20-25% of total daily calories from fat

*Forage: *

Either *grass or legume hay* (such as alfalfa) can be fed. Alfalfa hay does not have a high enough starch content to be a concern.

Grain hays such as oat hay and barley hay with remaining seed heads should be avoided.

The amount of forage is not critical - it can be varied depending on whether the horse needs to gain or lose weight. Just do not feed less than 1% of the horse’s body weight in forage per day. 
Lush spring pasture will be higher in starch and sugar than summer grass, and the amount of dietary fat may need to be increased during this time.

*Vitamins and minerals:*

*Vitamin E*: At least 1 IU vitamin E per lb of horse per day is important for all horses, especially those not on alfalfa products or green grass for much of the year. You cannot hurt a horse with extra vitamin E.

*Selenium*: About 1-2 mg selenium per 1000 lbs of horse per day is essential in areas that are selenium deficient. Selenium can be toxic at high levels, though, so be aware of all sources of selenium in your horse’s diet, and ask your veterinarian to have blood tested for selenium levels if there is any question of selenium deficiency or excess.

*“Broad spectrum” vitamins and minerals*: Horses on fat supplemented diets often will not be eating the manufacturers recommended amounts of fortified commercial concentrated feeds per day. If forage quality is good, most vitamins and minerals will be adequately supplied by forage. For horses on lesser quality forage, hard working horses, breeding horses, and growing horses, addition of a daily vitamin and mineral supplement is important.

*Other supplements*: Hoof supplements, joint supplements, etc. are not a problem when feeding EPSM horses.

*Fat:* * EPSM horses need at least 1 lb of fat per 1000 lbs of horse per day.*

Start with small amounts, such as 1/4 cup oil per feeding, and increase by about 1/4 cup every few days. Use the general rule that *two cups of oil = 1 pint = l lb.*

*Treats for EPSM horses:* Most EPSM horses are fine with carrots and apples in moderation. Avoid treats with grain or sugar. My horses like Kellogg’s Cracklin Oat Bran, which has about 20% calories from fat.


*Specific Diets for EPSM Horses*​ 
** At the time of this writing there is no feed high enough in fat to provide the proper calorie ratios to EPSM horses without an additional fat source*

In general, aim to feed no more than 5-6 lbs of any feed other than a pure forage based feed per 1000 lbs of horse per day.

*Feed the minimum amount of feed in the bucket that gets the horse to eat the maximum amount of daily fat while maintaining good weight*.

If it takes a small amount of something “sweet” (molasses, carrots and apples, apple juice, peppermint flavoring, a handful of oats or sweet feed, etc.) to get your horse to eat the right amount of added oil early on, this is not a problem. You can aim to decrease or eliminate this small amount of starch and sugar later.



 
*Examples of very low starch and sugar feeds:*

Alfalfa pellets
Other hay pellets
Alfalfa cubes - soak in water when adding oil
Beet pulp, low molasses content - soak in water
Complete feeds - meant to replace hay if needed
Dengie or chaff products
Chopped hay products


*Examples of low starch and sugar feeds**:

***In general, feeds higher in protein and fat will be lower in starch and sugar. Ingredients such as soy hulls, beet pulp, bran, wheat brans, and wheat middlings are relatively low in starch and sugar.

Below are examples of low starch and sugar feeds, there are many others. If in doubt, contact the company and ask about starch and sugar content. Look for feeds no more than 33% starch and sugar.

If you can see grains in the product it is likely too high in starch and sugar for an EPSM horse.

Purina Strategy (14% protein – NOT 12% protein) 
Nutrena Compete
Nutrena Safe Choice
Blue Seal Hunter, Demand, Vintage Gold
Senior feeds
LMF Stage 1
LMF Complete
Equi-Pro Carb-Safe
Platform horse feeds
Triple Crown Senior, Complete, Growth
Triple Crown Lite
Triple Crown Low Starch
Purina WellSolve L/S and W/C










*Examples of higher fat feeds*:

These are examples of feeds that allow addition of less added fat. Most companies suggest using these only as an addition to other feed. For EPSM horses, feed these alone along with good quality forage or a daily vitamin and mineral supplement:

Kent Feeds Omegatin (20% fat)
Nutrena Empower (22% fat)
Farmer’s Cooperative High Fat Low Carb (20% fat)
Moorglo (15% fat)
Rice bran, powdered (20% fat)
Buckeye Ultimate Finish (25% fat)
Nutrena Farr XTN (12% fat)
Re-Leve (about 10% fat)
Purina Ultium (12% fat)
Purina Amplify (30% fat supplement)

Calculate amounts of fat fed from these products by multiplying lbs fed per day by the percentage of fat. For example, 3 lbs of Ultimate Finish is 3 x 0.25 = 0.75 lb of fat.

Feeds with 20% or more fat can be supplemented with rice bran (20% fat) to provide additional fat. All other feeds require addition of a 100% fat source.

*100% fat supplements*:
Any salad type vegetable oil, such as soy, canola, corn, safflower, cottonseed, etc. Cocosoya and wheat germ oil are also fine, just more expensive.

Cool Calories dry fat product, by Milk Specialties - 800-323-5424 ext.1156, ask for Catherine Gerardi.

Cool Calories dry fat product, by Performance Horse Nutrition, Weiser, ID 208-549-2323.

Ultimate Finish 100, Buckeye Feeds


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Back On Track No Bow Wraps in Therapy Solutions at Schneider Saddlery

These might help with his stocking up. I have a set of them and use them anytime I've taken a horse out for a long ride that isn't quite in good enough shape to handle it. They help with the stocking up a LOT.


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Oldhorselady read my mind;-)
I checked Ultium. 12.4% fat,150 IU/ lb vit. E
As for low starch, timothy hay has ca 13% NSC, so you're okay with that. Adding alfalfa could be beneficial. It's lower in NSC, 11%. 

So roughly, adding fat, vit E and a general vit/ min supplement could be of great help. 

For him being so tired after work....of course, he has not enough fuel for his muscles due to the disease. Provide sufficient fuel and he will be stronger. 
Once he gets stronger I'd consider putting him in turnout with another horse to get him moving a bit.


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

Ill look into adding fat... 

Ill look into the boots.


I'm going to have to think really hard if this is something I can do.

I cannot be at the barn 24/7 to make sure he gets exercise or turnout, or all the correct amounts of supplements, oil, and feed.
All I can do is say this is what he needs, and hopes he gets it.
He had oil in the past added to his feed, it was really messy, and it took him half the day to eat... it was a pain, it limits the times you can ride him or turn him out.

If he misses something, he could get sick again. 

Last year I paid for 90 days of training, then he got sick and he had to sit for 3-4 months... so that was a huge waist of money.... I would hate to have it happen all over again. 

I own a horse so I can ride... and so far that just hasn't been working out.

Now we are starting all over again with him. I just hope he is ok and stays healthy and sound. I just want to be able to ride. :-(


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

He might not need oil, just another high fat additive, since he's already on Ultium. If you're not sure all his stuff is being fed, measure out his feed plus supplements and have it ready to dump in in little buckets with lid, or Ziploc bags, a day or two in advance. He is on daily turnout, so that seems to work. 
I do understand your reasoning, you've put much money into it and want something in return. But expecting that from a living creature is tricky. It doesn't always work that way. 
You know now what the problem is, you can tweak the diet relatively easy, now it's entirely up to you. If you're not willing to go the extra mile, find him a suitable home.


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

It may not be as bad as you think once you get into the groove of things. His body is clearly telling you something is lacking. It is your job as the horse's owner to give him what he needs since he can't do it for himself. We put these animals in situations to live in, perform and act that isn't natural to them. They are not machines. This horse may recover nicely from a proper diet. It pains me to think that he would be labeled as 'not worth' the effort. Oil IS messy and you do have to be a little more dedicated than the average, but it is so worth it if that is all you are dealing with. Who is to say that you would sell him and get a new horse, well trained and athletic, but has other disabilities that proove much worse? I guess if you feel you have exhausted your efforts and feel that you can not dedicate yourself, the best, most unselfish thing, is to find him another home. But please be fair, and don't sell him for something he is not so he can find someone to take the time to care for him as he needs. Even the perfect horse will eventually have something go wrong...injury, old age....


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

Hey now I never said he wasn't worth it.... 

All I said was based on his needs, my needs and wants, and having to board I'm not sure if it is possible.

I get to the barn thurs-sun. 

If I could find something other than oil that might work.

Vitamin E has to be kept properly or it will loose its value, therefore preparing it a day in advance isnt bad, but I don't think it would work making it sun to be used on wed. 

I have looked, come winter there is no where to go that has an indoor that can garentee daily turn out plus feeds supplements. 
I already pay $400 a month for board through winter. 

I'm paying $600 a month for where he is now which is just fantastic because my trainer works with him daily. I like my trainer, she is very knowledgable and does not use training gadgets, she apples a lot of natural horsemanship to her training. 

I'm buying his grain because they do not feed it normally, I'm paying another $100 every 50 days for supplements. 

I only paid $3500 for him, but have paid more than that already in vets bills just from the PSSM. lol it's to the point that the vet just kept my credit card number on file and I told her don't even bother calling, just go ahead and charge it and send me the bill. (I was 7 months pregnant and working full time so I could not always be there). 

So it's not about the money. It's about what will be best for my horse. I watched him near death and I know if he isn't cared for properly or someone messes up that can happen all over again! 

So I'm trying, but it's not a simple as just switching his food around a little. It's a whole 'nother lifestyle. 

So it goes beyond not just being able to ride him.

And no, I would not be selling him. If I couldn't keep him I would find him a suitable home, where he could come back to me if it would stop working out. And I would fully disclose his health issues, and deafness. 


Thanks for all the help.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Lopin N Paint said:


> I'm paying $600 a month for where he is now which is just fantastic because my trainer works with him daily. I like my trainer, she is very knowledgable and does not use training gadgets, she apples a lot of natural horsemanship to her training.
> 
> I'm buying his grain because they do not feed it normally, I'm paying another $100 every 50 days for supplements.


Ok, based on what you're saying here, I'd try feeding him Ultium, and if he needs more fat, then maybe add the Amplify fat supplement on top of the other feeds, in place of a liquid oil. What other supplements are you feeding that's costing you $2/day? Sometimes with these metabolic horses, less is more with supplementation. 

Once you get him on an even keel, you may not continue to have all the problems. If you find you can't keep him stable, then either giving him away or having him put down is the kindest thing you could do. It's tough!


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I second the Amplify on top of the Ultium. For the E, put it in an extra little bag, or check out Smartpac, they might have it pre- packaged in daily portions. 
I'd also look for pasture board or paddock with run-in shed. Blanket him in winter to not have to deal with excessive coat. It would take away the need of daily exercise. Or think about a half lease who can help out on the days you can't. 
A lot is possible, you just have to want and find it.


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> I second the Amplify on top of the Ultium. For the E, put it in an extra little bag, or check out Smartpac, they might have it pre- packaged in daily portions.
> I'd also look for pasture board or paddock with run-in shed. Blanket him in winter to not have to deal with excessive coat. It would take away the need of daily exercise. Or think about a half lease who can help out on the days you can't.
> A lot is possible, you just have to want and find it.


Ideally maybe my trainer will just house him through the winter... I'm looking up amplify right now!

So adding fat should help him look a little better too? I feel bad, he looks in such poor condition to me! 

Hopefully everything works out and I'm worried about nothin!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

Is there something other than Amplify I might be able to look into?

I already order Smart Paks Vitamin E and Smart Pack Digest Ultra....

...So if I could find something they carry that would be wonderful. 
Then I can look into ordering the already put together packs!

I'm considerably lucky I guess because Otto is a tough keeper, so I dont have to worry about him getting too fat!


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Let me do the math. It'll be later on tonight tho. Might be as easy as adding a high fat " normal " feed like Strategy Healthy Edge...gives him a bit extra for weight gain and has 8% fat/lb
how much Ultium is he getting right now?


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Let me do the math. It'll be later on tonight tho. Might be as easy as adding a high fat " normal " feed like Strategy Healthy Edge...gives him a bit extra for weight gain and has 8% fat/lb
> how much Ultium is he getting right now?


Ill let you know tomorrow. Ill be honest I suck at the math... I see all the numbers and % signs and I just bug out! Tanks again for all the help! 

I think I read he needs like 4 lbs of Ultium to get what he needs. Ill see what my trainer is giving him. For sure he needs to gain top line and muscle... And I know he can't do that without fat!

If I can do smart packs that seems to be my best bet! So hopefully I can find a fat supplement that works! 

Again, cost is not a big deal... I'd much rather keep my horse!


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

It's not hard. Just have to think the right way;-)
He has free choice timothy. Try to find out how many flakes she gives him and weight of a flake. Could be 15, or 20 lbs. Or more. Or less. So we need to know. That's lbs of hay x. 2.5% fat, transferred into grams. Plus lbs of Ultium x fat content%, converted into grams. Add all feed/ lbs and fat grams and figure how many % it is. So you know how much additional is needed. Are you lost? Me too lol, I do better in the evening when all is quiet
Try to get as accurate as guess-timates of his ration as possible.


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> It's not hard. Just have to think the right way;-)
> He has free choice timothy. Try to find out how many flakes she gives him and weight of a flake. Could be 15, or 20 lbs. Or more. Or less. So we need to know. That's lbs of hay x. 2.5% fat, transferred into grams. Plus lbs of Ultium x fat content%, converted into grams. Add all feed/ lbs and fat grams and figure how many % it is. So you know how much additional is needed. Are you lost? Me too lol, I do better in the evening when all is quiet
> Try to get as accurate as guess-timates of his ration as possible.


Ill find out! Would it help to have the hay analyzed? All the hay is taken within a few hundred acres from the same area/ same type of land? 

I'm very lost!


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Not really necessary. Fat content is pretty uniform. You can, if you're thinking about his overall vit/min intake. 
Take your bathroom scale with you( no joke...for the hay), we need as exact measurements as possible.


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Good to see you trying to work things out. It seems overwhelming in the beginning....percentages and numbers were driving me nuts too. But once you get a mixture that he is eating, and it's providing what he needs, it's a relief.:clap::thumbsup: Desert will help you along with a few others.


----------



## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Interesting that your horse is a paint as well. I've been having issues with my paint mare, but haven't had her tested for PSSM yet.

I've heard that Jet Deck bloodlines are possibly linked to PSSM, but don't have any hard proof on that. My mare has Skips lad in her bloodlines as well as Jet Deck, similar to your horse. Not sure if that is relevant at all.


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

4horses said:


> Interesting that your horse is a paint as well. I've been having issues with my paint mare, but haven't had her tested for PSSM yet.
> 
> I've heard that Jet Deck bloodlines are possibly linked to PSSM, but don't have any hard proof on that. My mare has Skips lad in her bloodlines as well as Jet Deck, similar to your horse. Not sure if that is relevant at all.


No Idea but here's his pedigree
a Gem An a Half Paint

Oh duh I read that wrong.... It's early lol


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

I found this article;

How to Prevent Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy (PSSM) in Your Horse | SmartPak Equine Blog

This vet feeds her PSSM horse 


> Some experts recommend feeding up to 1 pound of fat a day, but I’ve found a half pound works just fine in my own horse. I feed him four ounces of Cool Calories AM and PM, with SmartE in the morning and MSM in the evening.


Does this sound alright to go off of and try?
If I fed the above it would cost me $106.70 a month to get it in Smart Paks. Not terrible. I just bought the Vit E so I could just get the stuff and make it myself to get him going with it. :-| I know I can trust my trainer to make this stuff correctly every day... But I'm sure she would appreciate not having to do it! 

He was on MSM... But we stopped after he got better but I suppose it doesn't hurt?

She is feeding, as stated, a half pound of fat a day, but in addition to this my horse also would get the Ultium and hay. So I would guess he would get a bit more fat? 

The trainer says he is doing well, and his only issue she has seem is he is stiff through the back. Added fat should help, but she suggested a chiropractor too... So hopefully with all this he should be on a good path!


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Now if your trainer is cooperating so much, print out the feed plan Oldhorselady posted, and gia over it with her. This plan is done by a vet who specializes in PSSM/EPSM horses and has done lots of research. 
I wanted to see where you're at right now with percentage, maybe tweak it a bit, in favor of a more economical solution also. If he's doing good now, so it's probably not a matter of adding, rather switching to a cheaper alternative. The E you need with a high fat ration.


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Now if your trainer is cooperating so much, print out the feed plan Oldhorselady posted, and gia over it with her. This plan is done by a vet who specializes in PSSM/EPSM horses and has done lots of research.
> I wanted to see where you're at right now with percentage, maybe tweak it a bit, in favor of a more economical solution also. If he's doing good now, so it's probably not a matter of adding, rather switching to a cheaper alternative. The E you need with a high fat ration.


The Diet she posed is here



> 1lb timothy pellets
> 1/2lb Triple Crown Senior
> 1lb Nutrena Empower Balance ration balacer
> 1 cup Omega Horseshine
> ...


However 



> Fat: EPSM horses need at least 1 lb of fat per 1000 lbs of horse per day.
> 
> Start with small amounts, such as 1/4 cup oil per feeding, and increase by about 1/4 cup every few days. Use the general rule that two cups of oil = 1 pint = l lb.


Most everything I have read states 1lb of fat for an average sized horse.

So Actually 1 cup soy is not one lb 
2 cups of oil = 1lb (on average)

But either way she is feeding more fat than most vets recommend. 

Also according to the vet that wrote the Smart Pak blog 



> Some experts recommend feeding up to 1 pound of fat a day, but I’ve found a half pound works just fine in my own horse. I feed him four ounces of Cool Calories AM and PM


1 scoop of the Cool Calories I'm looking at (Cool Calories 100 by
Performance Horse Nutrition) is one ounce. And the vet feeds a 1/2lb of fat and is feeding 8 ounces a day! 

What the heck am I reading? How do I find out how much Cool Cal 100 I need to feed to reach a lb? lol
If 8 scoops (8 ounces) make a 1/2lb fat how can 3 scoops Cool Cal and 1 scoop horse shine = 1lb fat?

Im so confused!

As far as the 1lb timothy pellets 1/2lb Triple Crown Senior and 1lb Nutrena Empower Balance ration balacer I'd MUCH rather stick with the free choice timothy and Purina Ultium my vet recommended. I don't think my horse would do well on no forage, and I was told per my vet not to allow access to grass is possible.


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Lopin N Paint said:


> The Diet she posed is here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My guys get hay in 2" haynets and also an hour of grass turnout. I have cut back their hay to probably 20lbs twice a day for the both of my horses combined, since many of times, they still have hay left over between feedings anyways....I know it sounds unreal, but true. The only thing I can think of is that their bodies are craving things differntly now. The amount of fat they are getting is good for them so far....are my numbers off?....oy, I told you the math drove me crazy! I will have to look at the amounts again as a whole...plus I bought the Ultium today to replace the TC senior, so I will have to start adjusting again. Sorry, if I confused you. Did Ultium change from a couple years ago? I don't remember the red pellets with the brown pellets before...thought it was all brown before...hmmmm.


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Print out the diet that was given to me by Dr. Valentine that I posted, not my personal one for your vet/trainer. You may have to make adjustments that will differ from mine.


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

P.S. I will tell you, that for the first time today....as unreal as it may sound, when I lunged Snickers in the round pen and she transitioned down from canter to trot, it was so smooth that it didn't even look like she had a handicap. I couldn't believe it, still kind of think I was seeing things. AND it was BOTH directions. There was no buckling in her hind legs outside of the transition from trot to walk where she throws those hips out for some reason.:wink:


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

Oldhorselady said:


> P.S. I will tell you, that for the first time today....as unreal as it may sound, when I lunged Snickers in the round pen and she transitioned down from canter to trot, it was so smooth that it didn't even look like she had a handicap. I couldn't believe it, still kind of think I was seeing things. AND it was BOTH directions. There was no buckling in her hind legs outside of the transition from trot to walk where she throws those hips out for some reason.:wink:


Can I ask how long this took? From first noticing an issue till now?

I know Otto for years, but he was never worked on a consistent schedule.
When I bought him times for his owner were a little tough, he was a bit thin and the hay was not so good... money was tight.
I think these conditions brought this all out in the open, and when we through him into a all out riding every day training program he just fell apart. 

Our biggest issue with Otto is his stiffness and saddling...

Every once and a while when you toss the saddle onto him he will stand fine, but when first asked to walk off he balks and hops in the air. He does not seem afraid, or freaked out, we all agree its pain.

He just does not bend! He isnt being bad, or stupid, we really think because we know his past pretty well, and he used to be very bendy (almost over bendy) this is also pain or stiffness.


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Lopin N Paint said:


> Can I ask how long this took? From first noticing an issue till now?
> 
> I know Otto for years, but he was never worked on a consistent schedule.
> When I bought him times for his owner were a little tough, he was a bit thin and the hay was not so good... money was tight.
> ...


Both of my girls have been on the diet change for a couple months now. I never really noticed Belle with any severe symptoms because she is older, was neglected and in bad shape when I adopted her the day she was to be put down and I just figured she was arthritic. This journey started with Snickers my pinto. I adopted her as a 2 1/2 year old. I noticed when I first went to look at her, that something was just wonky with her legs. I had never had a horse that young and she was a draft cross so I had no clue if her conformation was just off because of her mix. I had a vet come out and she said that Snickers was just butt high and growing into her legs. Owner, of course said nothing was wrong with the horse, never had an accident or any problems etc. I considered wobbler syndrome/wobbles. We did the physical tests and she passed. So, I took her home.

As I would watch her run around in the arena and pasture, I would notice the bunny hopping. When she would canter she would buck and seem like she was trying to figure out what to do with her legs. Her legs would buckle into a pretzel when she would slow down out of the canter. She fell a couple times. She would also clip her front heels and make them bleed. Farrier tried to square her toes etc, but it didn't help. I had a massage therapist and a chiro come out, they shook their heads not knowing what to say...same as trainers/friends thinking she could possibly be gaited or something. I figured I would give her more time to grow.

She evened out with the growth spurts and I began lunging her to try and build strength and balance a little before backing her. It was painfully obvioius how hard it was for her in a confined circle to hold gaits. There was nothing that resembled normal with her legs. They were a twisted mess. I didn't push the round pen thing since she was so young and there was obviously something wrong. I needed to rule out pain. She was such a friendly, mild mannered girl. I didn't want to change her personality.

Then last summer I started backing her. She was perfect, never offered a bad behavior. She is very responsive and interested in doing what you are asking....a true conversationalist with her human. It was very hard to keep her in a trot, just a few steps at a time. She swings her hips out from trot to walk. Plus her cadence was waaaaaay off. Her hind feet in trot would be a half second behind her fronts etc. That's where I thought maybe she was gaited. However, she never acted like she was in pain. It was more like her body was just limited. Her hind end didn't seem to have strength. She seemed lazy and blah.

After a couple months, I moved to southern California from central California. So instead of flat, nothing terrain, she was introduced to hills, trails, mountains, beach etc. I would take her out on trailrides for hours since I thought that would build more strength than a round pen and I didn't want to strain her joints from the round pen either. I then noticed that going down hill, her hind fetlocks would knuckle over even at the walk. I had noticed the knuckling before when she was running around and slowing down, but never at the walk. I could see a 'pop' happening too, not sure if it was stifle or from the fetlock knuckling stuff. I tried to lunge her on a little bit of a hill and I noticed that when going in the circle on the down side of a hill, she would have what looked like a peg leg and it didn't bend to adjust to the difference in the ground. Again, nothing ever looked painful to me though. She just kind of went with things like that was just the way she was.

I had another chiro come out and vet. This chiro scratched her head like the first one. She did another physical test with her legs trying to pick up the diagonal or something...can't remember now....and that was off. Still not thinking neurological though. I could blindfold this mare and walk her and it was no big deal. I could ride her with a tarp over her head with no problem. She backs up fine, she has lateral movement fine, her tail tone is fine. The new vet said that she had stringhalt and wanted her to go to a surgeon. I was not convinced enough to jump on that bandwagon.

Snickers just turned four this month. The oddities I've noticed with her is that she often has spots on her sides where she nuzzles/scratches herself. I read somewhere that often people think these horses are colicing or they are said to be 'cinchy' because they do this due to the discomfort in their muscles. When I cinch Snickers, she never bits, but she does bring her head around and touch her nose to her side....however, she also is in the habit of me scratching her midline before tightening the cinch due to sweet itch...so I always thought that was her cue to me so I don't forget to scratch there before I tighten. But, because I notice the nuzzle spots on her sides when I see her, I think it has to do with her muscles. She LOVES being massaged and curry combed everywhere on her body, especially her neck, belly and behind her elbows on her sides. Snickers hasn't tied up, but she does get 'stuck' sometimes when I ask her to walk on a lead line. It's like a child saying...awww mom, do I have to? I used to think it was because she was young and just learning, but now not as much. Her legs have never locked up or anything, she just needs a moment to get the signals to them it seems. Like I said, with everything, she never seems like she is in any type of pain to me and she listens very well. If I thought she was in pain, I wouldn't ride her...I'm ok with that.

Now, I have been commited to this diet and exercise deal for two months now. I was convinced that she would only be a walking trail horse, maybe light trotting. She can be quite uncomfortable at the walk when she picks up speed....her hips seem to be very animated or something...she rocks you all over the place. But it used to be impossible for her to canter in the round pen and trotting she would slap her hind feet into the ground. Lunge sessions started very short. After about a month, I saw some slight improvement, then she regressed for a week, looking the worst ever and I was in tears thinking that was it. A week later, she made a bigger improvement. I started seeing less slapping of the ground at the trot with her hind legs. She looked less stiff in the butt and had some spring in her legs. Cantering was still questionable. When I would ask her to canter, she would turn both eyes and look at me like, "Why are you asking me to do something that I will look like a dork doing?"...lol. Then she would do it for a few strides and even seemed to surprise herself. No more bucking, bunny hopping, buckling. The downward transition was looking smoother too. Now today, I saw no popping/buckling from the canter. She does still throw those hips out or position those legs weird into the walk though.

So, now that I wrote this book....I would say that I've have noticed a 'marked' improvement at the two month point.

My horses have the opposite problem then you have...mine are marshmallows on air. I am out there every day either riding them, lunging them or taking them on trail walks by hand. They get more exercise than 90% of the horses out there. Their paddock is at least 48 x 48 and their private grass turnout is at least 48 x 84. However, even though they are fat, Dr. Valentine did mention my percheron's topline...so she noticed something I didn't.

If you want to see video of Snickers you can go to my thread under 'horse health' called 'Snickers mysterious hind end problem' or go to You Tube under EPSM Snickers. In the last video, you can see some of the improvement. I'm hoping the next video in a couple weeks will be even better. I can now invision cantering her under saddle one day.


----------



## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

lets do the math

1lb timothy pellets
1/2lb Triple Crown Senior
1lb Nutrena Empower Balance ration balacer
1 cup Omega Horseshine
3 scoops Cool Cal-scoop comes in bag (This combined with the Omega = 1lb fat)
1lb/1 cup soy oil
2000iU natural Vit E

TC senior is 10% fat so .5# has .05# fat
Empower is 5% fat so 1# has .05# fat
1 C OH is approximately 6 oz and it is 30% fat so 1 C has .1# fat
Cool calories is 100% fat so a 2 oz scoop is 2 oz fat.
3 scoops is 6 oz fat or about .4# fat
1 cup oil is .5# fat (yes 2 C oil= 1# fat.)

so .05+.05+.1+.4+.4= 1# fat right on the button. Add the "fat" in hay and this horse is eating more fat but it's about % of fat in the entire diet. You will drop the % of fat in the diet when you factor in the hay.

I wouldn't dink around with trying to make a lesser amount of fat work. Start with the full 20% and if you see the results you want, than you can work on reducing the amount 1-2% points at a time until you see a plateau or deterioration.


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Oldhorselady said:


> Print out the diet that was given to me by Dr. Valentine that I posted, not my personal one for your vet/trainer. You may have to make adjustments that will differ from mine.


^^^ that's what I meant to print out, OP.... I was half way out the door when I typed....sorry if I wasn't clear.


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Left Hand Percherons said:


> lets do the math
> 
> 1lb timothy pellets
> 1/2lb Triple Crown Senior
> ...


OH THANK GOODNESS!!!:happydance:

I saw it was you Lefty....and I was like, "Uh oh". Phew...lol.


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

LHP, the omega horseshine is 4 oz per cup. I weighed it because of blimp problems;-)

A lb of Timothy hay has 2.5% fat
When offered in a slowfeeder net, the average QH eats about 16-18 lbs of hay daily. I also, just like Oldhorselady, noticed that they eat less hay, voluntarily, when eating out of such net( mine went from 25 to 15 lbs hay). 

So let's say horse eats 2% of it's bodyweight. 
1000lb horse eats 20 lbs of feed. 
15 of the 20 lbs is hay.
So hay supplies 0.375 lbs of fat/day
Now all the other supplements can be added.
I find the math much easier when I transfer everything in grams and kilos, it's dezimal....for me anyway. 1 lb = 450 grams, or 0.45 kg
Did I confuse everybody enough?;-)


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> LHP, the omega horseshine is 4 oz per cup. I weighed it because of blimp problems;-)
> 
> A lb of Timothy hay has 2.5% fat
> When offered in a slowfeeder net, the average QH eats about 16-18 lbs of hay daily. I also, just like Oldhorselady, noticed that they eat less hay, voluntarily, when eating out of such net( mine went from 25 to 15 lbs hay).
> ...


O.........M...........G..............What language was that in?:shock:


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

:shock:So I did......confuse everybody....lol.......
I hope you mean the lb/gram/kilo thing.....I hope I hope......:?


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> :shock:So I did......confuse everybody....lol.......
> I hope you mean the lb/gram/kilo thing.....I hope I hope......:?


I guess it's not SO bad...I know how to do the math, once I know how to create the equation...lol.


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I just thought it might be easier to do it in decimals since % is also in decimals. 
In case you feel up to it....a lb: 450 grams, a kilo : 2.2 lbs or 1000 grams........;-)


----------



## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

deserthorsewoman said:


> LHP, the omega horseshine is 4 oz per cup. I weighed it because of blimp problems;-)
> 
> A lb of Timothy hay has 2.5% fat
> When offered in a slowfeeder net, the average QH eats about 16-18 lbs of hay daily. I also, just like Oldhorselady, noticed that they eat less hay, voluntarily, when eating out of such net( mine went from 25 to 15 lbs hay).
> ...


You're confusing people by incorporating the fat content of the hay into the calculation of the magic 1# of fat. The goal here isn't one pound of fat, it's the 20-25% of calories coming from fat.

The OP states that her horse is a hard keeper. He probably eats more than his share of hay. Let's say he eats 30# of hay per day (not unreasonable).
30# of hay is going to provide .75# of fat. If I only need to meet the 1# goal, than 1/2 C of oil will provide that additional .25#. Now what % of the calories comes from fat? 
Grass hay has approximately .9 Mcals/#. 30# of hay will provide 27 Mcals. 3 Mcals are coming from the .75# of fat.
Oil has 4 Mcals/# (2C). 1/2C is going to provide 1 Mcal.
So the horse is getting 28 Mcals per day and 4 Mcals are fat calories.
The % of his calories that come from fat: 4 divided by 28 is 14.3%. Not nearly enough to meet the goals of the diet.

If I carried this out all the way, I can meet the 1# goal with 40# of hay only problem is only 11% of the calories will come from fat.

Now if we look at OHL's diet with the 1# of fat in addition to the hay:
20# hay and pellets is going to have .5# fat and 18 Mcals
OM will have 2 oz fat and .63 Mcals
CC100 6 oz fat and 1.32 Mcal
Senior 1 oz fat and .75 Mcal
Oil .5# fat and 2 Mcals
So in this diet, she is receiving 22.7 Mcals, 1.55# of fat (6.2 Mcal)
% of fat in the diet is 27%. It is on the high side but she's seeing results than she's on the right track. If she dropped her fat intake to the 1# but keep the same Mcals to maintain condition, her % would drop to 17.6%. If any horse consumed more than 20 Mcals/day, they will automatically fall below the desired 20+% if they only get one pound of fat in the diet.

Simplify the calculations, throw out the 2.5% of fat in the hay, and try to meet the 1# of additional fat with high fat options. The extra fat that the hay contributes is not going to be of detriment but if you are relying on it to be part of the overall fat intake, it can easily pull that percentage down as the hay portion increases.


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Call ME confused now:shock:...I'll leave it to you.


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

So if I feed 2 cups corn oil that makes a Lb of fat... So that's all I have to do? Besides his hay, Ultium, and vit E?

I read other people's stories and it seems like it could take anywhere from a month or two on the diet to a year to get the results you want and for the horse to seem normal.

At this point I guess we should stop riding him because he is showing stiffness and I would guess pain / tenderness in his back...

Thanks for everyone's help so far. I'm still really confused and I contacted vets on Friday and no one seems to have much of a clue as to how to help me manage my horse.

This has been very frustrating.... I think I'll go for a ride to clear my head... Oh that's right I can't. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

Lopin N Paint said:


> So if I feed 2 cups corn oil that makes a Lb of fat... So that's all I have to do? Besides his hay, Ultium, and vit E?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In theory that's all you have to do but good luck getting even the piggiest horse to slurp down 2C of oil. I don't see where you state how much Ultium he gets but if the meals are 2.5# Ultium, each meal would provide .3# fat (2.5X.124). If he gets one 2.5# meal, you would need to add .7# fat (about 1 1/2C oil) per day, if he gets 2 meals or 5# Ultium, you would drop that down to about 1C oil (5x.124=.6# fat) or adding about 1/2 C oil to each meal. Very manageable and most horses will eat that amount in one feeding. Managing the feeding of oil when you rely on others to do it can be a huge problem and what's where the CC100, while an expensive alternative, can be the only way to get them to feed it. You would replace the .5# oil straight up for .5# of CC100. On day's when you feed, go with the oil and on days when you have to make up baggies of goodies for them to feed, go with the powder. Another option is to have buckets with snap on lids (you can pick them up for free at the bakery department in the grocery store, icing comes in them) and make them up for them. You can probably get away with 2 days in advance. Make their lives easy and put a clip on the buckets (so they hang them not dump them, much of the oil might be on the bottom of the bucket) so they don't have to figure anything out.


----------



## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Call ME confused now:shock:...I'll leave it to you.


If you're confused, than I'm not getting the point across. Am I cutting a corner and over simplifying some part of the calculations? Where am I loosing you?


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

Left Hand Percherons said:


> In theory that's all you have to do but good luck getting even the piggiest horse to slurp down 2C of oil. I don't see where you state how much Ultium he gets but if the meals are 2.5# Ultium, each meal would provide .3# fat (2.5X.124). If he gets one 2.5# meal, you would need to add .7# fat (about 1 1/2C oil) per day, if he gets 2 meals or 5# Ultium, you would drop that down to about 1C oil (5x.124=.6# fat) or adding about 1/2 C oil to each meal. Very manageable and most horses will eat that amount in one feeding. Managing the feeding of oil when you rely on others to do it can be a huge problem and what's where the CC100, while an expensive alternative, can be the only way to get them to feed it. You would replace the .5# oil straight up for .5# of CC100. On day's when you feed, go with the oil and on days when you have to make up baggies of goodies for them to feed, go with the powder. Another option is to have buckets with snap on lids (you can pick them up for free at the bakery department in the grocery store, icing comes in them) and make them up for them. You can probably get away with 2 days in advance. Make their lives easy and put a clip on the buckets (so they hang them not dump them, much of the oil might be on the bottom of the bucket) so they don't have to figure anything out.


Thank you! This makes sense and its something I can apply!

Hopfully on this diet it won't kill hiim come winter when turnout and exercise are just impossible. 

I might just have to stick with cc 100. It is expensive but at the same time I can get it in smart packs which make it easy for anyone and he should eat it easy enough. 

In the past feeding him oil was a pain. He ate it but it took forever, the flies loved it (or him) and he spit stuff out... Lol


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

This may be a stupid question, but how do I fi d out how much cc 100 has to be fed to make a lb of fat?

Edit: actually forget it, after reading reviews about cc 100 ill find a way to make the oil work.

I'm gunna try adding the oil to soaked alfalfa pellets (I know they already feed that at the barn! 

Hopefully this works!


----------



## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

Oil is 100% fat, CC100 is 100% fat so to substitute one for the other, it's straight across equal amounts. 1/2# oil is 1/2# CC100.

You can hide a lot of oil in alfalfa pellets. Put a couple cups of water on the AP to break the outer "shell" than dump the oil on top and he won't even know it's there.

Don't buy the smart packs. If they portion it in one ounce containers, they might be opening 8 to give him enough every day. You can buy CC100 for 
$17 for 8#. If you add 1/2# to his diet daily, that one pail will last 16 days and cost you $1.06/day. Pick up a box of quart size zip lock bags and portion it out yourself once a week. Put his name on every bag One of my boarders used to make up plastic togo containers of her horse's supplements every week. You can reuse them over and over.


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

Left Hand Percherons said:


> Oil is 100% fat, CC100 is 100% fat so to substitute one for the other, it's straight across equal amounts. 1/2# oil is 1/2# CC100.
> 
> You can hide a lot of oil in alfalfa pellets. Put a couple cups of water on the AP to break the outer "shell" than dump the oil on top and he won't even know it's there.
> 
> ...


Great advice! Thanks! 
Ill have to see which works better, oil or powder lol.


----------



## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I'm currently giving my horse oil just to see if it makes any difference before I have another vet out to do another lameness exam. 

The first week she ate it fine. The second week she went on strike and didn't want it, but when I took the bucket from her and fed it all to my other horse right in front of her, I guess she decided it was worth eating after all.  

I haven't had any more problems. I dose the oil at a rate of 1/2 cup to 3/4ths pound of feed. She is now up to 2 cups a day and has been licking the bowl clean. She has gained some weight so I have been trying to cut back on her hay. 

Check out walmart- they sell real cheap soybean and canola oil and if you buy online you can buy it by the gallon. I would see if your horse likes it first though. 

My mare hates corn oil and won't touch it. So I guess I will be feeding that to someone else.


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

My horses gobble it up now too. Maybe their bodies crave it now? Costco sells 5 gallon-I think it is, for $25 of soy oil.


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

Oldhorselady said:


> My horses gobble it up now too. Maybe their bodies crave it now? Costco sells 5 gallon-I think it is, for $25 of soy oil.


I'm going to look around for the restaurant kind... I read on another persons thread on another site it makes using oil easy. Big jugs with a pump top, something like 8 pumps with the stuff they bought is a cup... That should make it less messy for the barn owner!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

I wanted to use amplify as others mentioned but its only 30% fat
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I keep forgetting about the pumps...gotta find one. I do it the hard way...dumping the big jug with a funnel into a smaller jug..lol.

Just be sure it's not something like 'fryer' oil. You should be able to drizzle it over your own salad. Costco actually puts pictures on there boxes showing what it is used for to avoid confusion for people like me.


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

Oldhorselady said:


> I keep forgetting about the pumps...gotta find one. I do it the hard way...dumping the big jug with a funnel into a smaller jug..lol.
> 
> Just be sure it's not something like 'fryer' oil. You should be able to drizzle it over your own salad. Costco actually puts pictures on there boxes showing what it is used for to avoid confusion for people like me.


Oh geeze thanks I would probably bought the wrong stuff lol

We have a SAMS club up here that sells large bulk stuffs.

Until then my local AG sells CC 100. So I grabbed some.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

If there are still Smart and Finals in so Cal, they will have dispensing valves for the 35# containers of oil. They aren't cheap ($7-10) but well worth it for the mess they save. Harbor freight will also have hand transfer pumps (typically for transmission fluid or motor oil) that work OK.


----------



## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

Sooo... What are you guys doing about pasture this spring? 


I was picking up my mare's back feet yesterday and noticed her back legs were "heavier" and stiffer than usual. :? Maybe it's just me, but when you pick up a horse's feet every day, you start to notice things. Our pastures are in bloom. Green weeds, patches of knee deep grass... All that sugar. I think it might be time to get her off of it. I can either do a grazing muzzle 12 hours a day, or put her in a small, eaten down pen 12 hours a day and allow her to graze with a muzzle on our fresh green hell of a pasture for 12. 


She tied up last June. Summer is coming!


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Brighteyes said:


> Sooo... What are you guys doing about pasture this spring?
> 
> 
> I was picking up my mare's back feet yesterday and noticed her back legs were "heavier" and stiffer than usual. :? Maybe it's just me, but when you pick up a horse's feet every day, you start to notice things. Our pastures are in bloom. Green weeds, patches of knee deep grass... All that sugar. I think it might be time to get her off of it. I can either do a grazing muzzle 12 hours a day, or put her in a small, eaten down pen 12 hours a day and allow her to graze with a muzzle on our fresh green hell of a pasture for 12.
> ...


I'm lucky...mine have not tied up so far....just plumped up. So grazing is limited. I'm lucky because there paddock is quite large and it is only sand. They get turned out to their private pasture on a limited basis. The set up for my horses is greatly appreciated and I love my boarding facility.


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

You can see the sand third and the grass pasture two thirds of my horses living space. Belle is waiting at the gate to go out to the pasture....










Sand part...









Pasture part.....


----------



## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

Your place looks great! My place is nothing but 40 acres of rich costal. :? The only refuge is the eaten up pen where the foundered ponies live. I worry that living in the foundered pony pen will mean Baby Girl doesn't get enough to eat. She isn't a hard keeper, but she'll show a hip bone. Especially during the heat of competition season we're in now.


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Brighteyes said:


> Your place looks great! My place is nothing but 40 acres of rich costal. :? The only refuge is the eaten up pen where the foundered ponies live. I worry that living in the foundered pony pen will mean Baby Girl doesn't get enough to eat. She isn't a hard keeper, but she'll show a hip bone. Especially during the heat of competition season we're in now.


Do you board? Maybe you can make a tape fence section of pasture? Once that small area becomes eaten down it wouldn't be as bad? My boarn owner has been wonderful knowing that I have these special needs horses. She lets me select my own hay rations off of the hay truck by using those big 25 gallon buckets....I choose my hay, place it in the buckets and mark them for AM or PM feeding. Maybe you could make a special type of arrangement? But your girl, I'm sure, gets way more loads of exercise if you compete...mine are just trail/pleasure horses, though they do get daily exercise of some kind....AND mine are never anywhere near a hardkeeper...so yours will need calories, just not so much of that sugar. Once the temps level off a little it will be better?


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

Brighteyes said:


> Sooo... What are you guys doing about pasture this spring?


I'm also lucky, I have a few nice paddocks we use to keep the horses off the grass until it grows in nice.... Guess he will just have to stay in there  it is a bit sad... But it's really best for everyone! 

Last year Otto tied up once after he fell really really ill, and it was after about a month of being on grass for the first time ever in 12 years.


----------



## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

Oldhorselady said:


> Do you board? Maybe you can make a tape fence section of pasture? Once that small area becomes eaten down it wouldn't be as bad? My boarn owner has been wonderful knowing that I have these special needs horses. She lets me select my own hay rations off of the hay truck by using those big 25 gallon buckets....I choose my hay, place it in the buckets and mark them for AM or PM feeding. Maybe you could make a special type of arrangement? But your girl, I'm sure, gets way more loads of exercise if you compete...mine are just trail/pleasure horses, though they do get daily exercise of some kind....AND mine are never anywhere near a hardkeeper...so yours will need calories, just not so much of that sugar. Once the temps level off a little it will be better?


 
I do board. I talked to the BO today. I lunged Baby Girl, and she was dragging her toes at the trot. :? The BO said she was welcome to live with the foundered ponies in their eaten up pen, and can be turned out for a couple hours a day with a grazing muzzle if I please. The pony pen has a round bale of hay (which she's been doing well on all winter.) We don't feed square bales around here; and unfortunately, I don't think I have the money to buy them. 

How much does a month of square bales for one horse cost?

I'm also increasing the fat in her food so she won't lose too much weight. I'll start with 2 and a half cups a day instead of two and see what I need to do from there.

In Georgia, the temps level off at about 95-100 during the day and humid/rainy. Great for growing costal. She'll have to be off pasture until next winter. 


UGH. PSSM problems.


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Brighteyes said:


> I do board. I talked to the BO today. I lunged Baby Girl, and she was dragging her toes at the trot. :? The BO said she was welcome to live with the foundered ponies in their eaten up pen, and can be turned out for a couple hours a day with a grazing muzzle if I please. The pony pen has a round bale of hay (which she's been doing well on all winter.) We don't feed square bales around here; and unfortunately, I don't think I have the money to buy them.
> 
> How much does a month of square bales for one horse cost?
> 
> ...


I'd start with only 1/4 cup or 1/2 cup oil at a time, increasing every few days until you get your desired portion. This will prevent diarrhea and/or your horse sticking his nose up at it.

A square bale, which is a 3 string bale probably 100-120lbs, is probably about $20 a piece. Our hay is included in our board. My guys ration of hay has been cut in half. My two horses, one being around 1100lbs and the other around 2100lbs, both together get about five flakes of hay for the whole day between the both of them. The also get about an hour of turnout and their oil grool. They are exercised daily.

Snickers had quite a bit of toe dragging, but it was not constant. Her hind end was very stiff during a trot. She couldn't canter without tripping or hopping. Her walk was very wierd. Standing, she almost seemed like maybe she was double jointed and all 'googly' in her hips/butt or something...couldn't figure out a way to describe it really. But now, she really is improving. Today I lunged her on a lunge line and she still had the smoother down gaits and she cantered. I had her and Belle running around in the arena too. She did good on her own as well. There was one time that she did buckle coming down from a canter where she clipped her front right heel....but she is still better than before.

Don't get discouraged if you have regression and improvement doesn't come as fast as you would like. Your horse can't help the way their body is uncooperating. Just support him in what he needs.


----------



## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

She's been doing really well on her PSSM diet for almost a year now... I'm a little disappointed in the symptoms returning, but I was warned that sometimes you have a bad week. 


Baby Girl's first signs are usually reluctance to pick up hind feet and toe dragging at the trot. At least I caught it early, and hopefully taking her off pasture will bring her back to normal.


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

My horse does not drag his feet, or tie up.
He is actually quiet floaty and a real smooth ride.

He show soreness and stiffness through the back
And he gets down on me, depressed, uninterested in moving or anything or that matter.

He is PSSM type 1 p/n 
He was actually tested by U of M 

Just for what it's worth. :?


----------



## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

Baby Girl has type 2, probably. She's a spotted saddle horse -- a pretty abnormal breed to be affected. She can't canter, and has a hard time gaiting properly. She had slow onset atrophy of her back and hindquarter muscles and stringhalt like symptoms. I didn't pick up on any of this until she tied up the first time. :?


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

I had no idea PSSM was so prevalent.... We need to start a support group! 

Otto is actually ridden everyday right now, which is a good thing Ive learned. I told the trainer to not be so tough on him if he acts resistant, and know since we know we are giving him the benefit of the doubt till he is on the high fat potions for a while! 

I'm gunna give him a month, then call in a chiropractor if he is still having back issues. 

It's funny, looking back he showed all the signs but we blamed it on other things. His olf old owner sol him becuase he scared her, he bucked and was down right nasty a times when under saddle which everone blamed on lack of training. He spent years 3-6 in a small stall pumped up with sweet feed so when he came to our barn we all blamed his tender way of walkin and stiffness on being cooped up for years... Then they blamed his lack of motivation on personality and being naturally lazy. They blamed his stiff neck and back on poor training...

Then I bought him, and I put him into training right away because I had the money to spend on the horse I always liked! Within a month he was down, after 3 months he almost died on us. We and the vet thought colic, then thought infection, but his muscle enzyms tested waaayyy high ; like higher that a racehorse fresh out of yhe gate high! then one day when the vet was out to check on him (which had become an every other day thing) he tied up! She instantly thought PSSM and ran the test. I'm glad I know, and I'm glad she was familiar with it enough to test... I just wish they told me about him needing more fat lol!


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Brighteyes said:


> She's been doing really well on her PSSM diet for almost a year now... I'm a little disappointed in the symptoms returning, but I was warned that sometimes you have a bad week.
> 
> 
> Baby Girl's first signs are usually reluctance to pick up hind feet and toe dragging at the trot. At least I caught it early, and hopefully taking her off pasture will bring her back to normal.


Oh that's wonderful! Glad to hear it. 

Snickers had a week of regression after the initial improvement. I almost cried and really thought that I would only be able to ride her at a walk and that in the not so far away future I may not be riding her at all....it was that bad that week...worst ever.

Now I can actually invisioin me asking her for a canter under saddle one day with her having enough confidence and strength to do it. But also, if it doesn't turn out that way, I'm ready for it. She tries her very best and I can't blame her for her imperfections.

Keep up the good work. It's probably just a hump to get over. I know it's easier said than done sometimes too. But you are on the right track.


----------



## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

Heck, I'm all for starting a group! A lot of people don't understand the PSSM horse life, ya know? You tell them about your horse, and they think you're crazy. You feel sort of alone sometimes, because no one else knows how it is.


When Baby Girl tied up really bad, I didn't know what happened at first. I thought she pulled a muscle/pinch a nerve. She came back from a 30 minute trot in the woods so drenched in sweat it looked like someone had thrown a bucket of water on her. After 45 minutes, she was still panting and refused to move. I tried to walk her around, but she _couldn't_ move. She stood completely still for eight hours. Her urine was the color of cherry soda. Every muscle from the shoulders back was rock hard. She panted and her heart raced. Eight hours...

Two days later, I trailer her to the vet. Her enzymes were so high the vet's equipment couldn't read them. The vet said she was a dead horse walking. Miracle she survived, because it was the worst tie up she'd ever seen. Also miraculous is that Baby Girl didn't have any kidney damage.


It was strange. She didn't start showing signs of PSSM (atrophy, stringhalt, abnormal gaits) until she was almost five years old. She was six when she tied up the first time. She's an endurance horse. She's worked hard. Why not sooner?

And thanks OldHorseLady! I hope she'll get over it. We have a full year of rides to do. 11 total. We're heading to our fourth one this weekend. Fingers crossed for a national championship.


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Brighteyes said:


> Heck, I'm all for starting a group! A lot of people don't understand the PSSM horse life, ya know? You tell them about your horse, and they think you're crazy. You feel sort of alone sometimes, because no one else knows how it is.
> 
> 
> When Baby Girl tied up really bad, I didn't know what happened at first. I thought she pulled a muscle/pinch a nerve. She came back from a 30 minute trot in the woods so drenched in sweat it looked like someone had thrown a bucket of water on her. After 45 minutes, she was still panting and refused to move. I tried to walk her around, but she _couldn't_ move. She stood completely still for eight hours. Her urine was the color of cherry soda. Every muscle from the shoulders back was rock hard. She panted and her heart raced. Eight hours...
> ...


You are exactly right about there needing to be a group for EPSM. I totally understand about how people don't know much about it. Giving them this diet seems insane. All professionals, so far, have been perplexed and unknown to even tell me what body part is involved with Snicker's movment, or lack thereof.

I didn't even know my percheron was EPSM positive until I tested her for sh*ts and giggles since I was testing Snickers. Belle never showed any type of symptoms except for the sweating and looking arthritic. I chaulked it up to her being older and overweight. Even though she was willing to do work, she seemed to argue a lot. I think the percheron in her wanted to work, but her body limited her now.

You are unfortunate that you have experienced the tying up and severely. I can't imagine how hard that must have been. Poor girl. But thank God she has you, because if her owner wouldn't keep up with the care she needed, she probably wouldn't be around. So kudos.


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

I just wanted to give an update, unfortunately it's not a happy one.

While swtching him onto the corn oil Otto had another attack just like his one last fall. He got really down on us, He wouldn't eat (for three days), he wouldn't move, he just got really bad again... 

The vet felt there was likely something else going on, she told me there were other things that went hand in hand with PSSM but after she said they were harder to treat we had a heart to heart between me my vet and my trainer.

Ultimately we agreed the best thing to do was to put him down. 

It really sucked. My vet told me my expectations for riding him at this point was not looking good. All three of us agreed that rehoming him as a pasture pet was not in his best interest. I hope I did the right thing, I feel like I gave up on him, but I guess that's how it goes sometimes. 

I wish everyone else the best of luck with their PSSM horses! I'm sure there was something else going on with Otto which is why he just did not respond as well as we hoped to treatment.


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

So sorry for your loss. You did all you could and you should be proud of that. Sometimes I just don't think they can be fixed. He is no longer in pain and is running free.


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

Thanks. I still feel like crap... I think I will feel this way for a while. 

It was by far the easiest euthanasia I've witnessed but because it was my boy it was also the hardest... I hope breeders will start testing for this. My vet said this past year she had 4 quarter horses, well 3 and my paint, but all were halter bred.... :-(


----------



## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

So sorry to hear of your loss-you tried so hard. I hope you look for another horse to continue on w/your horse riding goals. I know you may not want to do that right away, but when you are ready, there are many here that are really good at conformation if you can get good pictures for them. You have a lot to offer a horse, and there are so many out there now that need a good owner.


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

You are right....I wish breeders would test for it too. I just think there is not a lot known yet about it, even with breeders maybe? When I talk about EPSM, many don't know what I'm talking about. Until this journey, I never knew about it either and especially didn't know it was genetic. Many halter bred QH's have it in their genetics because that is what builds beefier horses.


----------



## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

Cacowgirl said:


> So sorry to hear of your loss-you tried so hard. I hope you look for another horse to continue on w/your horse riding goals. I know you may not want to do that right away, but when you are ready, there are many here that are really good at conformation if you can get good pictures for them. You have a lot to offer a horse, and there are so many out there now that need a good owner.


Thank you. I'm going to continue taking lessons with my instructor on her horses and go form there. I wanted to purchased a finished reining horse... But honestly after this week I think I'm going to just chill and hopefully the right horse will find me! :wink:

I just hope I can help educate people on genetic diseases and how they affect others, my guy was born before the PSSM test, however two of my vets clients are yearlings. One is HYPP N/H and PSSM N/P ... Poor horse :-(


----------



## MelissaMiko (May 31, 2013)

*Story Man EPSM / PSSM*



4horses said:


> Interesting that your horse is a paint as well. I've been having issues with my paint mare, but haven't had her tested for PSSM yet.
> 
> I've heard that Jet Deck bloodlines are possibly linked to PSSM, but don't have any hard proof on that. My mare has Skips lad in her bloodlines as well as Jet Deck, similar to your horse. Not sure if that is relevant at all.


My horse Shadow Story Man has EPSM / PSSM. His paternal grandsire is Story Man, who was related to Jet Deck through their paternal grandsire Top Deck, a thoroughbred. This makes Top Deck my horse's great-great grandfather.

My horse also has Top Deck on his dam's side as a great-great-great grandfather.


----------



## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

It is true that this disease is just recently coming to light,but it has been around for along time. There is much more education & talk about HYPP,most people have at least heard of it {Even though they may not have the true facts about it}. HYPP is effects a particular bloodline in the stock horse world so much easier to track potential carriers & testing has become much more routine.Not the same can be said for PSSM:-( It can effect a variety of breeds & bloodlines!! It inheritance is liken to that of Hypp. Horses afflicted ,the symptoms very often are more difficult to manage that a horse with HYPP. YES we should be concerned:shock: & yes we need to become aware/educated about this disease. To me this is an genetic Equine disease that we should be most concerned with out there!!:-(
http://www.cvm.umn.edu/umec/prod/groups/cvm/@pub/@cvm/documents/asset/cvm_88608.pdf
Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy - CVM - UMEC, University of Minnesota


----------

