# Mare Cantering / Galloping with her head very low



## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

I suppose this is the right forum, as it's kinda 'conformation' ... 

The mare I posted here a couple of times has been backed and is riding out now in full training. She just carries her head very low, and I'm wondering about it ...

It's not really impeding her so far, as she's working really well and just this morning I saw her do 2miles on grass and attack the uphill finish. Her jockey said it's ok, just her style, though the trainer said he'd love if she would raise her head but thought maybe it was helping her breathe better to carry her head low, she's still a bit heavy and only 4 months in. I should say she has an excellent trainer and he's been trying to get her to pull her head up, so I'm sure he's using whatever tricks he can.

Here's a couple of pictures -- physically she's developed really well, she is really very powerful behind - the depth of her muscling is fantastic. 

I kinda think it's just her preference to hang her head a bit as she's not really being pushed yet, and when she comes to race she might be more orthodox.

I suppose the questions are

1) Is it a sign of a muscular imbalance somewhere, or in her neck, or the set of her neck, or the size of the head (or set of her head) ?
2) Is it an impediment to running on the flat ?
3) Same as 1 but for hurdles ?

Thanks,

Liam.



This is her this morning, she did all her work pretty much like this, and worked really well,










This is her 4 months ago when she was taken in from grass and started to exercise a bit










This is her about 6 months ago










And this is 18 months ago


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

What kind of bit is being used? How does she carry her head while being free lunged (nothing on her at all)? It may not be a conformation or natural carry unless she does with no tack on at all. There are horses who naturally carry their heads low without any training and have been bred for in stock bred western pleasure show rings.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

SunnyDraco said:


> What kind of bit is being used? How does she carry her head while being free lunged (nothing on her at all)? It may not be a conformation or natural carry unless she does with no tack on at all. There are horses who naturally carry their heads low without any training and have been bred for in stock bred western pleasure show rings.


I'm not sure what kind of bit she's using now, but they've tried various to get her to bring her head up.

As for free-lunging, she carries her head quite low.

It's very odd to me, as you can see in the photos she has a fairly straight neck and at rest carries her head 'normally' ... 

I really don't like to see it her at a gallop, I've seen some good racehorses who do a little bit, but nothing like she is doing,

I should add that she is not heavy on her front while doing so and is really very balanced... it's just really odd, and I'd be a lot more confident in her if she wasn't galloping around with her head between her knees.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

E.g. This is Sea the Moon, German Derby winner and one-time Prix de l'Arc favourite, this is him running away with a Group 1, I remember at the time thinking how unusual it was and he did actually break down as a 3yo so never got to run in Europe's richest race ... related ?


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

If it her personal preference or most comfortable for her, you should probably let her do it as this is what she will likely perform best doing. 

A little breeding stock paint mare I had felt like she disappeared under me when I asked her to gallop, she dropped low and was fast. Watching where we were going, I had no part of her head or neck in my sight until I pulled her up to slow down. She only dropped her head like that for the gallop and she loved the speed as I only requested her to go faster than a canter and told her the direction we were going. The rest was up to her and I felt out of place speeding over the ground.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

The only issue with gallops with the head low is the extra pressure on the front legs and front end as the horse runs down hill (very down hill). 

If she collects up some and shifts her weight to the rear then she will slow down. 

I do not think she is hurting (tho a Chiro apt might be a good idea). I think it is just her. She is a fine looking horse.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

I would push her on so she gets her legs further under herself and her head should come up. Its hard to tell from photo but her stride looks short.
.


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## hyperkalemic4 (Dec 8, 2014)

I am riding horses for a woman and she has asked me to get her cantering with her head low. I had her head down at a trot in the frist few minutes. Now If I can just get it down at the canter.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Elana said:


> The only issue with gallops with the head low is the extra pressure on the front legs and front end as the horse runs down hill (very down hill).
> 
> If she collects up some and shifts her weight to the rear then she will slow down.
> 
> I do not think she is hurting (tho a Chiro apt might be a good idea). I think it is just her. She is a fine looking horse.


No she's not hurting, everything with her is fine. Her work is good, she's galloping well and schooling over hurdles fine. Her walk is beautiful.

I asked a trainer today and she said every one they've had who had a low carriage turned out to be very good. I looked at a few past races of horses she named and it really seems more of a quirk than anything - though I would say those horses tend to pull and be a bit more headstrong than average.



churumbeque said:


> I would push her on so she gets her legs further under herself and her head should come up. Its hard to tell from photo but her stride looks short.
> .


She's only warming up there and it's a fairly slow canter, but her stride is fine. She was working in a group of 6 good horses and looked possibly the best.


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## disastercupcake (Nov 24, 2012)

What happens when the rider pushes her forward? Normally, pushing them forward at a steady rate until they relax will elicit their natural head carriage... if that is her's, possibly work at the trot while encouraging connection with the bit, and ask her to lift her head gradually. She may just need to develop the muscles required to carry her head higher.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

She is a race horse.. I would not mess too much with this. 

Sort of like a working dog.. too much obedience can squash the working end and working drives along with independent thinking. In a race horse, too much connection and so forth will mess with speed.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Actually, I will restate all of this. I think the mare is totally a disaster and you need to export her to the US for my own personal use.. Expenses paid.. because she is clearly in need of my expertise and you would be well shed of her! 

(a lady can dream, right?) LOL


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

It seems she's loading her front end and not moving in a balanced frame. When she's trotting her hind hoof should step into the imprint of the front hoof. You need to work on getting her to bring her hindquarters underneath and the front end will look after itself.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Elana said:


> She is a race horse.. I would not mess too much with this.
> 
> Sort of like a working dog.. too much obedience can squash the working end and working drives along with independent thinking. In a race horse, too much connection and so forth will mess with speed.


This is exactly the approach they are taking, the jockey says she gives a great feel and she's going well -- so it's a kinda 'wait and see' -- maybe when she goes faster, maybe when she gets fitter ... 




Elana said:


> Actually, I will restate all of this. I think the mare is totally a disaster and you need to export her to the US for my own personal use.. Expenses paid.. because she is clearly in need of my expertise and you would be well shed of her!
> 
> (a lady can dream, right?) LOL


Maybe for Christmas ... 


I have a short video that I could upload somewhere, maybe I should do that, I'm not sure the stills give the right picture


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

A couple of videos to give a better look,

Here she is just doing light work before being backed, but still she keeps the head low and chin tucked up

https://vimeo.com/115272265



This is where she's at a canter, warming up before doing a piece of work.

https://vimeo.com/115272263


Other than the head carriage I'm delighted with her, as are her jockey and trainer who say she's always very well and so far seems quite promising,

a) it's a bit unusual, especially given she looks fine and strong and good conformation overall.
b) if she goes racing over hurdles she'll have to lift and lower her head a lot.

So, it's just a real head-scratcher for me, and I'd love to know more about it.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Another possibility is just boredom, not enough stimulation to get her attention. Dragging her head because there is no interest. I knew an Arabian mare who had floppy ears. As she plodded along, her ears flopped around unless something caught her attention and she wanted to look at something or threaten someone (she loved pinning her ears at cows that were near because they ran away lol). But as soon as she was bored again, her ears flopped back and forth in a very unattractive manner. My sister had a gelding that also needed stimulation under saddle or he did weird things due to boredom, like canter his front in the right lead and his hind in the left lead. Made it feel like the rear was trying to pass the front to the unfortunate rider who needed to engage his mind to get him to correct what he was doing lol


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I don't see that she is engaging her hind quarters at ALL. She seems like she is trying to do the job that she was taught to do, which is to move heavily on the forehand.
She's built well enough, but I retrained my downhill built QH, "Ro Go Bar" (1982--2009, RIP) to use HIS HQ's and you can do this, too.
I think you should think of every exercise you can to get her to strengthen her HQ's. 
Walking up and down slopes, or using dry ditches.
Lunging over cavaletti.
Riding over cavaletti.
Cavalletti: Revised Edition: Schooling of Horse and Rider over Ground Poles: Reiner Klimke, Ingrid Klimke: 9780851317557: Amazon.com: Books
Loose jumping over small verticals.
Even training to do a Western slidestop would help.
I know that it's been said on this thread to not beat her in training out of this, but if you do not retrain her, she WILL prematurely wear out her front legs and then, not be rideable.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

SunnyDraco said:


> Another possibility is just boredom, not enough stimulation to get her attention.


That's actually a really interesting idea -- she's a very relaxed type of individual and you could well be right -- when they picked up the gallop she did raise her head which was good, and maybe because she was woken up.



Corporal said:


> I don't see that she is engaging her hind quarters at ALL. She seems like she is trying to do the job that she was taught to do, which is to move heavily on the forehand. ..
> 
> 
> ..she WILL prematurely wear out her front legs and then, not be rideable.



That's funny, I thought she was nicely balanced and her HQs are actually really powerful. 

She may not engage them fully in these videos and I might need to get one of her at gallop and see then. She did 2miles in 4mins on a yielding turf gallop so there's something going well. (and she's still carrying quite a bit of condition).

I wonder if we've different interpretations of how much she should be collecting, for it's sake, and how much she should be racing ?

I.e. She has a great pedigree to make a broodmare and the training / racing is just to give her a chance to see, but once she's had maybe 6 races she'll never be ridden again. Once she goes to stud she'll be producing full time. She has a lot of quality, but it will be for of her sons to hopefully fulfill it ! (after he's sold and the risk is not mine !)


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

After watching the lunging video I want to give her more length to her side reins and let her reach down and round (because she is trying to do just that). this raises the back and actually engages the stomach muscles and is what a horse will do "seeking contact" and after she learns the down and round she can start to be on the bit.. and this leads to collection. Lunging I would lengthen the side reins and let her go down and round. It may actually help her in the long run.

What a NICE horse. She needs to come here and do a little dressage! (she can do that carrying foals too).


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## Fahntasia (Dec 19, 2011)

Elana said:


> After watching the lunging video I want to give her *more length to her side reins and let her reach down and round (because she is trying to do just that). this raises the back and actually engages the stomach muscles and is what a horse will do "seeking contact" and after she learns the down and round she can start to be on the bit.. and this leads to collection*. Lunging I would lengthen the side reins and let her go down and round. It may actually help her in the long run.
> 
> What a NICE horse. She needs to come here and do a little dressage! (she can do that carrying foals too).


 That is exactly what I was thinking! Oh and if she goes missing she is certainly not in my barn :wink:


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Judging just from the video/pictures I went back and looked again and I still do not see her engaging her HQ's. As we know many racehorses are bred to "fall forward" to force them to move quickly forward. Usually we just see this in QH racehorses bc they sprint full speed, first stride out. ANYBODY who has ridden a TB can feel them progress through "gears" and speed up.
Usually, collection begins with a horse carrying his/her head higher, and then, as the horse learns to balance, the horse drops his/her head lower. But not THIS low.
I still see this as a training issue and my suggestion is still to strengthen her HQ's.
I don't believe that this post was to show this horse off. She is a pretty mare with a nice build. Post her in the pictures part of the forum and we will all agree on her nice conformation. 
The post was about a low head carriage and concern that this wasn't quite right. * It isn't.*  I am not comfortable with any horse carrying his/head low like this when I'm riding.
We have legitimately ridiculed the WP community for training horses to carry their heads so low in the show ring to "show collection" that they could put rollers on the end of the shanks of their bits.
SOMEBODY has trained this very trainable mare to force her head downwards in front. This is forcing her to fall forwards and that is not collection.
I really believe that if you work her over poles and cavaletti you will see her pick her head UP and balance herself, as she should. Dr. Miller (of imprinting foals fame) has said that it takes 10x-20x as long to RE train as it does to train correctly, so this will not happen quickly.
In order to balance any creature must carry any and all weight above the balance points, which are the legs. It's all a matter of physics and holding her head out in front forces an unnatural way of going using muscles to hold the head up, instead of using the head and neck to balance.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Corporal said:


> ..
> Usually, collection begins with a horse carrying his/her head higher, and then, as the horse learns to balance, the horse drops his/her head lower. But not THIS low.
> I still see this as a training issue and my suggestion is still to strengthen her HQ's.
> 
> ...


uhmm .. I'm starting to come around to thinking there may be something at play that won't just resolve itself with time.

it's funny because she's done all her prep-work with experienced handlers who've done all our horses the same way, this one just always seemed to carry her head lower ! .. and while they would love to see her raise her head they are not too concerned just yet.

I remember the first time I got excited about her, I opened a fresh strip of grass in her paddock and she really galloped hard straight down it! (and with her head down ... ) 

I certainly agree on getting it right immediately re: the re-training being so much more difficult, 

She's in a racing stable at the moment, it wouldn't kill me to take her out and get her re-schooled with a riding expert. I don't think where she is now they can manage this aspect as well as someone else. I'm glad I brought it up here as others were more minded to let it develop ... maybe I should take her out for a couple of weeks and just focus on collection and carrying herself, it could be scheduled in with a break.

Thanks everyone for your input and Happy Christmas.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

So, just before I do anything, I have to bear in mind that it's only four months since she was backed and started to ride out every day ... 


Someone gave me the interesting opinion:

"When the young racehorses are first learning to gallop they have their heads either very high or very low. Once they have figured out how to move their legs at a true gallop with a jockey on board and become fitter and more muscled they bring themselves up to a more comfortable level."


a good point or no, do you think ?


She's not yet fit, I let her put on too much condition last summer and she's still carrying it, that said if you saw her in the flesh you'd see how strong she really is - though I wouldn't call her the most graceful - v experienced TB breeders have said she's all power, a bit sprinty in shape, sometimes the pictures don't tell all,

Thanks, obv it's a big decision to pull her from her training / racing schedule.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Corporal said:


> I think you should think of every exercise you can to get her to strengthen her HQ's.
> Walking up and down slopes, or using dry ditches.
> Lunging over cavaletti.
> Riding over cavaletti.



Of course, I forgot to say, she does do 1 full day each week of schooling over jumps, going over like 2.5 - 3 foot poles and lots of little exercises ... she get all that. 

She also does uphill canters 2 x7f once a week, though that will soon be at gallop.

So, it comes down to 

1) She's not very fit, though she is good
2) She's a little bit downhill in build, though the photos might not show it correctly
3) She's a heavy build for a TB
i.e. I wouldn't say that grace, balance and poise are her strengths ... 


then

4) It's only 4 months they are working with her, and while there is technical work, most of the emphasis is on getting her racing ... is that time enough for me to call a halt and take her out to be retrained for collection etc.. ??


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Uphill TROTS on a loose Rein.. 2 pt rider.. will do a LOT more than uphill canters. In fact, for a bit it will be difficult to keep her in a trot because she is not fit. Uphill trots on a loose rein will not interfere with her race training. Uphill trots will do as much as cavaletti.. and if the hills are long and relatively steep they will do more. 

Daily.. uphill.. trots... let her stretch her head down and lean into the hill. Builds the abdominal muscles.. which makes the back more supple which makes hind end engagement easier.. which makes it easier to raise her front end which makes her work with her head higher because she physcially can.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Elana said:


> Daily.. uphill.. trots... let her stretch her head down and lean into the hill. Builds the abdominal muscles.. which makes the back more supple which makes hind end engagement easier.. which makes it easier to raise her front end which makes her work with her head higher because she physcially can.


Thanks Elana .. that's a very good exercise I must say, makes good sense,

Will be very interesting to see how it all works out, I'll keep this posted for those interested. 

Early thoughts are that she might run in mid-Feb, that would be something ! 

I might post a vid of her at gallop before then, would it just be me or any sense in thinking that if she has a great walk then her gallop should follow ?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

First - She's a lovely horse
Then the low head thing - I think she might have been 'trained' to go like that - muscle memory - from having the long reins run so low through the stirrups holding her head down into that position - maybe she was also lunged in side reins really low too? 
I honestly don't like to see a head that low in a racehorse especially if you intend to run her over jumps when she needs to be looking up where she's going and not at the bottom of the fence
Hopefully if she's ridden forwards on a loose rein she'll re-adjust herself because I don't think its natural to her conformation


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> First - She's a lovely horse
> Then the low head thing - I think she might have been 'trained' to go like that - muscle memory - from having the long reins run so low through the stirrups holding her head down into that position - maybe she was also lunged in side reins really low too?
> I honestly don't like to see a head that low in a racehorse especially if you intend to run her over jumps when she needs to be looking up where she's going and not at the bottom of the fence
> Hopefully if she's ridden forwards on a loose rein she'll re-adjust herself because I don't think its natural to her conformation


Thanks Jaydee,

Jumping is definitely a worry, fortunately that may not be for another 6 months ++ 

(but she does school over jumps fine, so maybe it slows her down to lift the weight from her front end, but she can pick up her head and jump fine, though obviously that's not at speed.)



> Hopefully if she's ridden forwards on a loose rein she'll re-adjust herself because I don't think its natural to her conformation


This is something the trainer is working on, he's certainly concerned and wants her to lift her head. I might talk to her jockey about changing his style to see if it can improve her carriage - at the moment she's very keen and they're more concerned with keeping her in check when she's at work. She is fast and spirited (e.g. running up behind the horse in front urging him to go on ..) But maybe if she was given an inch or two and the jock raised his hands ?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It looks as if she was started properly so lifting one rein when she drops too low will help encourage her to raise her head - I find that works better than lifting both reins together
Lunging her without any side reins might help and working her on the long reins but with the lines passing through rings on a surcingle half way up her sides rather than low down where they go through the stirrups. Long reining horses is great but you have to be really careful not to have pressure on the horses mouth that's restrictive enough to get its head in to close and too low
If you want to jump her in 6 months she needs to get out of the habit ASAP so she's looking over the fences and making a nice 'arc' so she maintains speed on the other side and not diving over them
If she's running forwards in a straighter line she'll move faster than if she's 'tunneling' with her front end


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> It looks as if she was started properly so lifting one rein when she drops too low will help encourage her to raise her head - I find that works better than lifting both reins together
> Lunging her without any side reins might help and working her on the long reins but with the lines passing through rings on a surcingle half way up her sides rather than low down where they go through the stirrups. Long reining horses is great but you have to be really careful not to have pressure on the horses mouth that's restrictive enough to get its head in to close and too low


Thing is, that's not me lungeing her, and to start over would mean taking her out of training - where she is going well and is on track for where the trainer wants her.

The other thing is - the guy who is lungeing is very experienced and I'm sure he has his reasons for wanting that shape in her. He was basically doing a 'sales prep' without the actual sale, just to get her in better condition before going to be backed. But he's done 100+ of high class horses who've gone on to be very successful racehorses. His 'nursery' is well known and ... I'm slow to criticise him though I might ask him why he did that.

It's a huge problem for me to take her out of her stable now - she's in full training and her prelim races are drawn up. That includes money entries paid for possible seasonal targets, nevermind the trainer's own idea of progressing her week on week - she had a quiet spell - but is back in 6 weeks of hard training now.

I just have to see if given her head, and a few inches of rein, she'll bring her head up.


What would you think of this horse's head carriage - which was his default under a jockey ?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I wouldn't take her out of training because I think ridden forwards on a loose rein she'll hopefully sort herself out. 
Long reining like he was doing is standard practice - just some horses - maybe the more forward going ones - put more pressure on the lines and end up getting their heads pulled down too low. The same can happen using draw reins to ride in. 
This video made by William Funnel from the Billy Stud shows how light the lines need to be to avoid putting on enough pressure to bring the head in too low and tight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pstqs9uV8Is
The two pics - The top horse wouldn't worry me - the rider has the horse on a tight rein so he's coming well behind the vertical but I would think if he let him off he'd relax, stretch his neck out and follow the bit. He'd probably be a good horse to retrain for competition or pleasure riding if he stopped racing because he's 'giving' to pressure rather than avoiding it or bracing against it as a lot of racehorses do
The second one - looks great. Ears pricked, enjoying his job. Going forwards over the fence ready to gallop on. He could maybe have more length of rein to compensate for the jockeys position and that would allow even more freedom of movement on landing to pick up and gallop on - and lessen the 'dead mouth' TB thing they can get


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> The two pics - The top horse wouldn't worry me - the rider has the horse on a tight rein so he's coming well behind the vertical but I would think if he let him off he'd relax, stretch his neck out and follow the bit. He'd probably be a good horse to retrain for competition or pleasure riding if he stopped racing because he's 'giving' to pressure rather than avoiding it or bracing against it as a lot of racehorses do
> The second one - looks great. Ears pricked, enjoying his job. Going forwards over the fence ready to gallop on. He could maybe have more length of rein to compensate for the jockeys position and that would allow even more freedom of movement on landing to pick up and gallop on - and lessen the 'dead mouth' TB thing they can get


Thanks Jaydee,

That's Golden Cygnet, one of the quickest hurdlers ever to race at Cheltenham,

He was well known for his very low head carriage while racing and liked to keep his head behind the vertical -- but as you can see when he came to jump he was brilliant ! ... when I mention the current 'problem' with this mare his name comes up quite a bit !


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I didn't recognize him at all from those pics as I only ever saw him racing - Looking at a Youtube of his Cheltenham win I didn't think that he ran as low in the neck as your filly seems too at present but I think given time to adjust herself you're going to see a very different outline in her as she runs more
Cygnet came to a very sad tragic end - he just didn't even seem to take off over the fence that brought him down. I remember the race as we had money on Night Nurse


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## Patty Stiller (Aug 7, 2012)

I had a nice TB stallion at the track who could (and sometimes would) gallop with his nose way low. It didn't worry me at all because he was easily rounding up and it meant his back was nice and relaxed. The first time I galloped him as a three year old right after we bought him from a mixed sale he actually ran off that way...nose nearly on the ground, THAT was a little scarey...


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I wouldn't worry about it - a horse with low head carriage rarely falls over fences!

Borough Hill Lad carried his head so low his teeth often cut his knee, he won many good races including Cheltenham Gold Cup.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I sent LTG a link by PM that was very interesting about hind end engagement.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Elana said:


> I sent LTG a link by PM that was very interesting about hind end engagement.


Could you PM it to me please Elana - always good to have info like that


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Here is the link:

An Exercise for Getting Your Horseâ€™s Engine in Gear l Horse Collaborative


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Thanks for the link Elana, 

I said I'd update this thread when I had something new, and I do,

The mare went for a schooling race today for the first time and I got a vid of her galloping (it's in slow-mo, and I have her picked out) - her head carriage was much improved overall, though she had a very experienced jockey today and I asked him about it - he said she was pulling quite hard and was nervous and excited so she was dropping her head to pull on the bit ... !?)


https://vimeo.com/116360628



Also I snapped her again to see how she's coming on physically, I think she is strengthening up in her neck (which might explain why her head carriage has improved... and also I think she is looking stronger behind)











as always, any comments greatly appreciated, thanks, Liam.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If I'm looking at the right horse she's going 100% better Liam

Thanks for the link Elana


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