# Horse aggression during round pen training



## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm doing some research into round pen horse training and aggression. 

I am specifically interested to know if aggressive behaviours are common or rare in the average round pen session. Aggressive behaviours would include kicking out at you when you approach (not when you chase them away), laying ears back when you approach, charging, biting, rearing, pawing or striking, particularly when you approach or cue the horse to change direction or follow you.

Kicking out when you initially chase the horse away is more likely to be a defensive reaction (Waring 2003), but kicking when you come towards them are more likely be aggressive. If you've ever been chased out of the round pen am I particularly interested to hear of your experiences. 

Thanks in advance!


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## JaphyJaphy (Nov 15, 2012)

A young mare I'm currently working with sometimes displays aggressive/disrespectful behavior towards me, but being overly dominant is sort of her main issue. She is pretty much over her bad behavior, but she used to rear quite a bit, even in response to simple/mild cues to move.

I've never had any problems with any other horses in that regard.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

I've used the round pen with three horses of my own and helped approximately twice as many other people with their horses in a round pen. Not once I have experienced aggression.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

*Aggression in a round pen is a 'people problem' and not a 'horse problem'.*

Any person that has a problem with a horse acting aggressively in a round pen would more than likely have a horse be disrespectful on a lead, a longe-line or under saddle. Unless the horse come to a person very spoiled and very aggressive, like a trainer might get in or like you might come up with in a 'sale barn purchas', aggressive horses are 'taught' to be aggressive by inept wanna-be trainers and owners with good intentions but little skill or horse knowledge.

All it takes to make some horses get aggressive is to step back away from a horse at the exact moment you should step forward toward him and take charge. This is a 'people problem' and not a 'horse problem' and surely not a 'round-pen problem'.


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## JaphyJaphy (Nov 15, 2012)

Cherie said:


> *Aggression in a round pen is a 'people problem' and not a 'horse problem'.*
> 
> Any person that has a problem with a horse acting aggressively in a round pen would more than likely have a horse be disrespectful on a lead, a longe-line or under saddle. Unless the horse come to a person very spoiled and very aggressive, like a trainer might get in or like you might come up with in a 'sale barn purchas', aggressive horses are 'taught' to be aggressive by inept wanna-be trainers and owners with good intentions but little skill or horse knowledge.
> 
> All it takes to make some horses get aggressive is to step back away from a horse at the exact moment you should step forward toward him and take charge. This is a 'people problem' and not a 'horse problem' and surely not a 'round-pen problem'.


I agree completely! The mare I'm working with is a very sweet, intelligent and sensitive horse and it's pretty evident that her aggressive/disrespectful behavior has only developed because she can be pushy (she's quite young) and her owners are afraid of her.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I agree with Cherie. I have a mare that is/was aggressive in the round pen. We sent her to a trainer who used a lot of round penning. We don't really know what happened but she had the horse under saddle in three days. Then a month went by and we got a call saying the mare had an epiphany. Three days later we were called and told the mare was "dangerous and was going to kill someone". We took the mare back sort of confused as to what had happened. I had halter broken this mare as a yearling and found her smart but safe. The mare went to the track and did not make it as a racehorse (she interferes) but the trainer liked her attitude. We asked the trainer what we should do with a "killer horse". The trainer suggested selling the mare. Which we thought would be unethical. If this horse is going to kill someone how do you sell it with a clear conscious to someone? We started to hear about how the trainer had an alcohol problem and started to wonder. 

The mare went down to a friend in Florida who has been training horse for 20 odd years and said she would take look at her. Nothing was really adding up and we were wondering if we were that breeder blind about this mare. The Florida trainer said that she could not get the mare to mis-behave and do something dangerous. She rode the mare through an area that had a forest fire go through hours before (trees were still smoking) and the mare did not bat an eyelash. We took the mare back and started to figure a few things out.

The first time we put this mare in the round pen to warm her up she turned into a devil mare, bucking, kicking, rearing she never hit us but she fired warning shots. We took her out and lunged her no problem, likewise if you just saddle her up and go. Not much flusters her on the trail. She can get caught in wire and stands nicely while you untangle her. She has sank into a tree stump and just stepped out of it. I can swing off and tie her to a sapling and sort out the rider with me. The horse behind her can spook, rear and bolt off sans rider and this mare will take a step to the side to not get hit as the horse runs past her. I can take this mare out after a year of not being touched, saddle up and go for a trail ride and she is fine. 

As near as we can figure, this mare was round penned without a pressure release. She got to the point where the pressure was never taken off and/or she managed to intimate the trainer and learned that the way to get out of the round pen was to act dangerous. This idea even generalized to rope halters. I never used one on this mare and they never use them at the track. The only place she would have been exposed to them was at this trainers. To this day (its been 5 years) if you put a rope halter on this mare her ears go back and for lack of a better word she gets ****y. Ask her to do the same task in a flat halter and she does it ears forward and willing. 

I had tried to do some round penning/join up when she was a yearling and I halter broke her. The mare did fine with that always joined up and never kicked or reared at me. Thats been my experience with round penning horses. You should not do it if you don't know what your doing and pressure release is really, really important.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Unfortunately the round pen is all too often seen as a place to make the horse move with speed and going around too many times. This plus the addition of mixed signals confuses the horse and he reacts in a defensive manner. I've read of people being angry with a horse's behaviour on the trail so when they got home the horse was worked to exhaustion. The horse learned nothing except to maybe rebel the next time it sees the pen. Much can be accomplished if the handler keeps the energy low because the goal is to keep the horse relaxed. A relaxed horse will try to sort out what is being requested. A relaxed horse is forgiving of handler mistakes as we must be forgiving of their.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Ahhh....the old "round pen them until they drop of exhaustion" method. Seen it and always amazed at how people can get the theory but not the concept.

Way too many people have bought into all sorts of "training" ideas and they do not understand anything other than the first little bit of it.

I agree about the trainer pushing the round pen too much, but also wonder if this mare, is not smart enough to figure out that she knows what she is to do, and sees no reason for some fool to chase her around a pen?


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Palomine, that is why I like to keep the energy low with lots of direction changes. The session may last 10 min. or two minutes. The horse needs to be taught to turn inward with direction changes and to move out on the rail again. Even at the walk we are making him move and directing where he goes.


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## AndersonEquestrian (Sep 25, 2012)

rookie said:


> I agree with Cherie. I have a mare that is/was aggressive in the round pen. We sent her to a trainer who used a lot of round penning. We don't really know what happened but she had the horse under saddle in three days. Then a month went by and we got a call saying the mare had an epiphany. Three days later we were called and told the mare was "dangerous and was going to kill someone". We took the mare back sort of confused as to what had happened. I had halter broken this mare as a yearling and found her smart but safe. The mare went to the track and did not make it as a racehorse (she interferes) but the trainer liked her attitude. We asked the trainer what we should do with a "killer horse". The trainer suggested selling the mare. Which we thought would be unethical. If this horse is going to kill someone how do you sell it with a clear conscious to someone? We started to hear about how the trainer had an alcohol problem and started to wonder.
> 
> The mare went down to a friend in Florida who has been training horse for 20 odd years and said she would take look at her. Nothing was really adding up and we were wondering if we were that breeder blind about this mare. The Florida trainer said that she could not get the mare to mis-behave and do something dangerous. She rode the mare through an area that had a forest fire go through hours before (trees were still smoking) and the mare did not bat an eyelash. We took the mare back and started to figure a few things out.
> 
> ...


Releasing pressure is SOOOOOO important. *Horses learn by the release of pressure* and for some people this is an impossible concept. I am not sure what it is but some people feel they just can't let go. I am finding this A LOT in my group lessons. All my kids are hanging onto their horse's mouths for dear life and never do they release even when they are stopped. I have finally got the more advanced kids releasing better but am still struggling with a few others..
Even in the wild, after a horse is kicked by a more superior horse and the less superior turns away or does as the higher up horse wants, the higher up horse releases the pressure by walking away, not kicking, or ignoring the other horse. We have the same concept except through physical pressure and eventually with verbal pressure/commands. 

Anyways. I hope this was easy to understand..


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Never been chased out of a pen but they've given it their best shot. They ended up realizing that was a bad idea VERY fast. Cherie and the others have excellent opinions.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

I purchased a horse several years ago I believed was "round penned to death". The trainer I purchased him from is a fantastic trainer (you never hear a bad word about the guy from anyone), but this particular horse should have gotten out of that round pen and into the wide open space. He was SO NERVOUS. It took a month to get him to relax and walk on a loose rein out in the open. He didn't do anything aggressive at all, but was just super nervous about constantly paying attention to you. I think, in part, of being over-worked in the round pen by someone who does it _right_. Point being, even if you are working your horse correctly in the round pen, it should still be used moderately, as round pen sessions can be intense when you are contantly expecting that horse to do exactly as you say based on your body language.

I agree 100% with Cherie.

Any horse that shows aggressive behavior has had that problem* created* by the handler, 99% of the time. I say "99%" because there are always those whacko exception horses who are agressive/nuts on their own, although very few and far between.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I also agree with Cherie, aggression in horses is caused by how the people handle them, not simply because they were round-penned. I've dealt with many horses, some unhandled and some spoiled. I've never had an unhandled horse even hint at acting aggressively against me. Some of the horses I've handled that had already been through one trainer or horses that had their owners buffaloed would be the hardest ones to deal with.

But you know how I dealt with it? I put them in the round-pen and handled them properly. It didn't take long for them to figure out that the ear pinning, striking, and charging wasn't going to cut it with me.

The one that I most commonly discuss is my Mustang Dobe. I got him as a 3 year old stud from the people who had adopted him. They had good intentions, but they didn't have the knowledge or ability to handle a wild stud. After the first few times when they pushed him too hard trying to catch him, he started to show aggressive tendencies since there was no flight option for him. Once he started doing that and he realized that a well-timed charge and bared teeth would make them leave him alone, it became habit and got worse. After a couple of days of proper handling and one 'come to jesus' meeting, he straightened up and has never pinned an ear at me since.

So, like others have said, the round pen has absolutely nothing to do with aggression issues. It's nothing more than a matter of _proper _handling/training versus _improper_ handling/training.


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## AndersonEquestrian (Sep 25, 2012)

There are few cases where the horse has a screw loose and it IS the horse's problem. But I think about 99% of the time it is mishandling and the issues getting totally out of hand. =]


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I had begun to wonder if by ceasing what we are asking the horse to do are we really releasing the pressure. The more I thought about it the more it kept coming to me to leave the pen. We had been working on something that was pushing the horse's comfort level and I was careful to watch I not over do it. When I saw how hard he was trying, I quit, rubbed his forehead, removed his halter and left the pen. I looked away from him and thought about supper, not him. After three or four minutes I reentered the pen and repeated what we'd been working on and now he seemed eager to try again. The second session lasted perhaps 3 minutes. He has it down pat and nothing further needs to be done. Was it because pressure was completely removed? In his case I believe it was.


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## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks for the replies. I agree with the posts that it is handler created due to incorrect release of the chasing pressure. I recently watched an experienced handler cue her horse to do inside and outside turns with the tiniest posture changes and then saw the same horse start kicking out, pinning its ears and threatening to strike when handled by someone learning the cues. The horse appeared very confused about what was wanted of it and expressed the resultant frustration with aggressive displacement behaviour. When the original trainer stepped back in the pen the horse went back to responding correctly without the aggression.

What I am really interested in from a research perspective is how frequent it is and the contexts in which it is likely to occur. Anyways am just at the very beginning of developing this project so appreciate the comments- they've given me a lot to go on with.


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