# Bloodletting in horses?



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

No never heard of it - what's it supposed to do that's beneficial?


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## WendyJane (Jul 11, 2015)

jaydee said:


> No never heard of it - what's it supposed to do that's beneficial?


That's what I'm trying to figure out!

In talking to my dh he recalls someone once telling him that it's good to donate blood because when your body regenerates more blood it has added antibodies. Now we have no idea if this is true or not, but if it is I guess it would do the same for horses and kind of boost their immune system?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Tale of caution; My farrier used to do a lot of work down near the border. He quit one ranch and reported them to the authorities after he saw a group of Mexican Cowboys stitching a horse's eyes shut, not because it was sick or had lost an eye but because it was misbehaving. Their method may work really well, but there is another way to accomplish the same thing. Really? Ya think? 

Just be cautious. Simply because it comes from a cowboy, doesn't mean you do it.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Its in no way needed and actually this man was doing work on your horses illegally......... I have worked for vets for 35+ years and NEVER once did I see this done.
Old wives tale that is regenerates fresh blood. I would have told him to get the heck away from my horses before I called the cops. Umm, probably used a dirty needle too.


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## clwhizy (Aug 20, 2014)

I've never heard of such a thing, travel and a new environment can be stressful for horses...I don't see how losing blood would help the situation? Maybe try calling and asking your vet?


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## WendyJane (Jul 11, 2015)

wyominggrandma said:


> Its in no way needed and actually this man was doing work on your horses illegally......... I have worked for vets for 35+ years and NEVER once did I see this done.
> Old wives tale that is regenerates fresh blood. I would have told him to get the heck away from my horses before I called the cops. Umm, probably used a dirty needle too.


It's not illegal here in Ecuador. And no the needles were sterilized. He has dozens of his own horses and does all of the work on them himself. But many things here are still done the "old way" and not necessarily backed up with science. 

That's freaky about the eyes being stitched shut! OMG! I've never seen anything I would classify as abuse here, just maybe misguided or negligent. And had I initially understood what he was going to do I would have said no. We were working on loading the mare up when dh consented to the other horse being bled. Because you know anyone other than his wife must know what they're doing. :icon_rolleyes:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

WendyJane said:


> Anyone ever heard of bleeding horses? I mean within the last 150 years, not back in the middle ages.
> 
> We finally got our horses moved to our other property yesterday which is 2 hours away and lower in elevation so a little warmer on average than where I am now. So, the local cowboy/horse breeder set us up with a guy who could transport them for us and we brought the horses over to his house early in the morning to get ready for transportation. Cowboy says something to me in Spanish about them moving to a different climate and he has something at the house to give them.
> 
> ...


Yes, there is one good medical explanation.
Horses or people, living in higher altitudes, need more red blood cells to transport that O2, thus get a higher hgb. level then animals lower down
That hgb. level can make them haemo concentrated at lower altitude levels
(blood too thick )
there is also a human blood condition, known where the bone marrow produces too many red blood cells, and the treatment then is to draw blood from those people once a month or so


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I should add, an actual RBC count and Hct. (packed cell volume) should have been done first, to see if those horses actually had high heamoglobins

Here is some medical facts on polycemthia and high altitude. It is human based info, but the info has general application

Polycythemia (High Red Blood Cell Count) Symptoms, Causes, Treatment - What are the common causes of secondary polycythemia? - MedicineNet


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## WendyJane (Jul 11, 2015)

Interesting Smilie, thank you!


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

There is no scientific basis for bloodletting other than "folk" wisdom (that I know of), and if done improperly it could actually make a horse sick in the first place due to infection from the wound site. I assume that this isn't being done with sanitized knives or any other precautions, so things like tetanus or bloodborne diseases could be an issue, as well as infection of the wound site.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

I would have had a heart attack if someone had done that to my horse!!!!


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

The only time I have heard of blood letting in horses is in Mongolian nomadic tribes who use it in a traditional drink. 

Can't say I see the benefit of it. I wouldn't worry too terribly about that amount of blood, but I would be keeping an eye on the injection sites and have some antibiotic ointment on hand.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

The only bloodletting I heard of was a local trainer that bled his horses before a horse show. Not ethical and not something I would endorse.


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## Ryle (Jul 13, 2007)

No good reason for this and do not ever let someone "just give" or "just do" something to your horse. First off, someone other than a veterinarian determining the need for, giving medicines to your horse and getting paid for it is practicing veterinary medicine without a license. Second, if the person is not a veterinarian you really don't know how much actual knowledge (or skill) they have.


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## WendyJane (Jul 11, 2015)

Ryle said:


> No good reason for this and do not ever let someone "just give" or "just do" something to your horse. First off, someone other than a veterinarian determining the need for, giving medicines to your horse and getting paid for it is practicing veterinary medicine without a license. Second, if the person is not a veterinarian you really don't know how much actual knowledge (or skill) they have.


Great idea when you live in a developed country. Vets are not a dime a dozen here and are in fact very hard to come by. This guy is the local go-to guy for all things horse related in this area and does a lot of basic horse care. Like I said I thought he was going to give her a vaccination or I obviously wouldn't have let him go ahead with it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Becuase you have to live there with the people, in THEIR culture, there is some wisdom in going along with them as long as it is not truly detrimental to the hroses. you will have more support if you do not go about intentionally rubbing the most respected local "vet" the wrong way, . . but I think you know that already.

sounds like the horses were not harmed, so all's well that ends well.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Unless he has an autoclave that needle was used and dirty. You are lucky your horses are not sick. Barbaric. Just Barbaric. 
I honestly cannot word my opinion on this and be nice.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

yes, it should have been done, if AT ALL, ONLY UNDER CORRECT SANITARY CONDITIONS, bUT, (SORRY, HIT cAP KEY ) there is a medical reason for blood letting, as I posted, as secondary polycythemia can be created by high altitude living
Read the info. As a lab tech, we has a few patients with primary polycythemia, and their treatment included regular blood letting. When the blood gets to haemo concentrated, it is hard on the heart
Since no packed cell volumes were done, we do not know whether the former higher altitude where the horses came from, induced this condition or not, but obviously, those people had experienced the results of this high haemoglobin concentration before, so there are some medical facts, behind what they did

Since reading links seems often not to be done, to thus get some medical facts-here is the info:

At hematocrit levels higher than 60-65%, however, the compensatory increase in red blood cells reaches the limit of benefit and begins to compromise circulation because of hyperviscosity. The latter leads to greater tissue hypoxia and erythropoietin secretion, a continued increase in red blood cells, and further impairment of circulation.
To restore viscosity and maintain circulation at its optimal level, phlebotomize or remove the offending red blood cells. Some patients with extreme secondary polycythemia have impaired alertness, dizziness, headaches, and compromised exercise tolerance. They may also be at increased risk for thrombosis, strokes, myocardial infarction, and deep venous thrombosis. These are the patients who require phlebotomy.'
High altitude, because of the low O2 concentration, does cause secondary polycythemia


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Bloodletting, I have never seen it done on a horse or human in real life. All I can think of is way back when humans with illnesses were bled for cures with leeches. I believe that is how George Washington died.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Horses move to different climates all the time, some even fly on planes, they don't get a blood letting. Even if theses horses did need a blood letting, which they didn't, 2 cups would not help. 
Horses store a lot of blood in their spleen to use when needed, that's why most normal labs show anemia when the horse is not anemic.

I don't give a hoot about cultural practices or offending a self proclaimed horse expert. Sure, the horses weren't harmed-this time. 
What I find most disturbing is how someone would let anyone, much less a horse hauler, start putting needles in their horses for any reason. Actually the thought of being OK with some mystery vaccination is worse than the blood letting. Ever heard of informed consent?


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I have heard it being done in Australia specifically at the track. Some folks swear by it saying it puts the shine on a horses coat due to forcing the spleen to contract and the body to ramp up new blood cell production. I would not want it done on my horse. I did meet an Australian veterinary student who was shocked that American Thoroughbreds are not given this treatment.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

natisha said:


> Horses move to different climates all the time, some even fly on planes, they don't get a blood letting. Even if theses horses did need a blood letting, which they didn't, 2 cups would not help.
> Horses store a lot of blood in their spleen to use when needed, that's why most normal labs show anemia when the horse is not anemic.
> 
> I don't give a hoot about cultural practices or offending a self proclaimed horse expert. Sure, the horses weren't harmed-this time.
> What I find most disturbing is how someone would let anyone, much less a horse hauler, start putting needles in their horses for any reason. Actually the thought of being OK with some mystery vaccination is worse than the blood letting. Ever heard of informed consent?


Yes horse fly, BUT it takes time, living under low O2 tension, for the bone marrow to respond by creating more red blood cells, not just a flight here and there-come on!
In fact,some trainers use it as a 'natural' form of blood doping( giving more blood to a horse with a normal hgb), by training at high altitudes, thinking that will increase performance.
The spleen by the way, removes abnormal blood cells from circulation,and why people with conditions like haemolytic anemia have their spleen removed.
I am not making a judgement as to whether these horse should have been bled, if the right amount of blood was removed, or if they were even close to having any cardiac problems
I am merely answering the question,a s to whether there is any medical fact behind blood letting, on an animal that has been living at a much higher altitude, and explaining as to why that can be so.
That is not condoning anyone doing so, without lab results, or by non sterile techniques, nor without owner consent
If the horses had secondary polycythemia, they would not show anemia, but the alternate-a high RBC count and packed cell volume
Just in case anyone thinks a high hgb is beneign, when I was still working at foothills hospital, some idiot read the time the blood was taken, on a patient's requisition as the hgb.
That a patient was transfused, when in fact, they had a normal hgb of 16, and died of cardiac arrest

I think the OP just asked if there could be a medical reason for this procedure, and not whether due process was even followed, as that is another topic!

Here is stats as to what altitude horses develop polycythemia

https://books.google.ca/books?id=H3...page&q=Horses + altitude polycythemia&f=false


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

rookie said:


> I have heard it being done in Australia specifically at the track. Some folks swear by it saying it puts the shine on a horses coat due to forcing the spleen to contract and the body to ramp up new blood cell production. I would not want it done on my horse. I did meet an Australian veterinary student who was shocked that American Thoroughbreds are not given this treatment.


They do the opposite on the track, and it is called blood doping-giving horses with a normal hgb more blood, or substances to cause an increased production of red blood cells

Blood doping defined:

Blood Doping: Types, Risks, and Tests

In other words, high altitudes cause the same effect, due to low O2 levels, thus the body producing more red cells in order to transport enough air with diluted oxygen, to reach, 'quota'


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

updownrider said:


> Bloodletting, I have never seen it done on a horse or human in real life. All I can think of is way back when humans with illnesses were bled for cures with leeches. I believe that is how George Washington died.



Wrong
Blood letting is still the treatment used for primary polycythemia
(polycythemia vera )

Here is the treatment, which includes blood letting (phlebotomy )


The long-term risks of polycythemia vera (PV) include leukemic and fibrotic transformation, which occurs in fewer than 5% and 10% of patients, respectively, at 10 years. Current treatment modalities do not change these outcomes. Instead, treatment for PV is intended to decrease the risk of arterial and venous thrombotic events, which could be approximately 20%. 
Patients can be risk-stratified for their risk of thrombosis according to their age and history of thrombosis. Patients older than 60 years or with a previous history of thrombosis are considered to be high risk. Patients younger than 60 years and with no prior history of thrombosis are considered low risk. 
All patients with PV should undergo phlebotomy to keep their hematocrit below 45% and should take aspirin, 81 mg daily. In addition, if a patient is at high risk for thrombosis, cytoreductive therapy is added to the management plan. Hydroxyurea at a starting dose of 500 mg twice daily is the most commonly used cytoreductive agent. It can be titrated on the basis of blood counts. In patients who are refractory to or intolerant of hydroxyurea, interferon-alpha can be used as an


Not to forget the link:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/205114-treatment


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

A while back I heard an old man off of the reservation talking about bloodletting a horse who foundered. Said if a horse foundered severely you used bloodletting and it would clear up and they'd be sound again. 

I have no scientific evidence of his claims, but I can say that the 'foundered' horses of his I met looked better off than the ones going through 'modern' treatments....

No saying I'm condoning ALL old cowboy tricks, just saying that sometimes there's a time and a place to go with "local" knowledge, especially if your in an undeveloped region.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

I thought George Washington died of Syphilis.

Has anybody else heard that?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Incitatus32 said:


> A while back I heard an old man off of the reservation talking about bloodletting a horse who foundered. Said if a horse foundered severely you used bloodletting and it would clear up and they'd be sound again.
> 
> I have no scientific evidence of his claims, but I can say that the 'foundered' horses of his I met looked better off than the ones going through 'modern' treatments....
> 
> No saying I'm condoning ALL old cowboy tricks, just saying that sometimes there's a time and a place to go with "local" knowledge, especially if your in an undeveloped region.



Yeah, but that's blood letting from the hoof, and that's a more commonly recognized, and used, treatment. not from the neck.


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## Ryle (Jul 13, 2007)

Phlebotomy to reduce the red cell count may be done, but it has to be accompanied by iv fluid administration to maintain circulating blood volume while reducing the number of red blood cells. It also isn't necessary in all cases where a horse moves from a higher altitude to a lower altitude. 

The circumstances (no diagnostic testing, unsure about sterility of the equipment used, etc) are a cause for concern.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

updownrider said:


> Bloodletting, I have never seen it done on a horse or human in real life. All I can think of is way back when humans with illnesses were bled for cures with leeches. I believe that is how George Washington died.





Smilie said:


> Wrong


Smilie: My post is NOT wrong since I said I have never seen bloodletting done on a human or horse. How could YOU know what I have seen or not seen? 
I then said all I could think about [in regards to bloodletting] was back when humans were treated with leeches. Again, how could YOU know what I am thinking about? 
I said I believe George Washington died from being treated with leeches. How could YOU know what I believe or do not believe?

Next time, argue something that is something you can argue. 



anndankev said:


> I thought George Washington died of Syphilis.
> Has anybody else heard that?


I do not know why he was sick, but I have always believed (because it was something I read or was told) that his treatment was bloodletting with leeches. True or false, I do not know.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

Leeches are still being used in some aspects of modern medicine for those with hyper coagulation issues. On the issue of George Washington, Mount Vernon ( his home) reports that he developed a cold after riding in damp weather, various doctors were called over the next two days, all of them bled him. In total he was bled 4 times in the period between december 12th and december 14th having anywhere from 1/2 pint to 32 oz at his last bleeding. It should be noted that he seemed to rally before ultimately passing away, he did request he was not buried for at least 3 days after his death. So, while a cold and excessive bleeding may have been a cause I am also pretty sure he had some syphilis as most famous rulers did (Washington did have Malaria and TB). I think Alexander the Great died of Syphilis. 

As for the bleeding in thoroughbred race horses the person I spoke to said it was largely "poorly understood and the reasons were theoretical at this time". They also felt it was pretty miraculous the changes that would occur in a horse post bleeding. Again, not something I would do to my horse but different cultures have different ideas and of all the ideas out there I feel like bloodletting might be one of the more harmless ideas.


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