# BLM's Wild Horses mtg in Boise, Idaho



## WildAbtHorses (Jul 9, 2019)

Hi. I'm looking for updates (a YouTube Live Stream would be great) on what is right now taking place in Boise with BLM and the wild horses and burros' meeting.

I know Wednesday, 10July2019, The Bureau of Land Management's meeting on wild horses and burros will be Streamed LIVE. https://www.blm.gov/press-release/n...o-advisory-board-meet-boise-and-washington-dc

To me, this feels like such a historical turning point in America and the wild horses.


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## WildAbtHorses (Jul 9, 2019)

Wednesday, 10July2019, The Bureau of Land Management's meeting on wild horses and burros will take place in Boise, Idaho and it will be Streamed LIVE. https://www.blm.gov/press-release/n...o-advisory-board-meet-boise-and-washington-dc


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Can't vote. No option for darting with a 30-06 & sending the meat to a food bank.


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## WildAbtHorses (Jul 9, 2019)

*NYT Retro Report on Wild Horses posted 2013*

The New York Times Retro Report Wild Horses: No Home on the Range Published on Jun 19, 2013


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## WildAbtHorses (Jul 9, 2019)

50,000 horses and burros in overcrowded holding pens isn't an ideal life but do they deserve to go to the slaughterhouse because of our mismanagement? Meat to food banks? Do humans eat horse meat?


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## WildAbtHorses (Jul 9, 2019)

*Articles on America's Wild Horses & Burros Situation*

1971 Act of Congress
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_and_Free-Roaming_Horses_and_Burros_Act_of_1971

Washington Post By Karin Brulliard March 4, 2016
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-action/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.92dc56beb402

The New Yorker By Carolyn Kormann January 10, 2018
https://www.newyorker.com/tech/anna...to-capture-the-plight-of-americas-wild-horses

Mestengo. Mustang. Misfit. America’s Disappearing Wild Horses By Laura Moretti
https://americanwildhorsecampaign.org/history-america’s-wild-horses

Mother Nature Network (MNN) Jaymi Heimbuch July 20, 2017
https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/a...e-west-why-this-american-icon-is-disappearing


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Yes humans eat horse meat. And they have for millenia.


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## WildAbtHorses (Jul 9, 2019)

*YouTube Videos on Wild Horses*

Fin & Fur Films Horse Rich & Dirt Poor Published on Mar 25, 2019





YETI Presents: Veterans & Horses - One Eighty Out Published on Jan 20, 2016





YETI & VICE Presents: Navajo Son: Meet the Great American Cowboy - Derrick Begay- Published on Feb 12, 2019


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## WildAbtHorses (Jul 9, 2019)

Your post from 2017
https://www.horseforum.com/horse-law/wild-horses-unicorns-pests-767377/

too me, the situation is just so heartbreaking


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...l-escaping-clutches-two-hungry-lionesses.html​
This is real life nature. But in the West, we have very few predators capable of killing and eating the horses, who are "prey". Since we have no business allowing overbreeding and overgrazing to the point we've got 50K horses in pens and increasing numbers, it seems obvious to me we need to introduce "predators" capable of taking down horses and eating them. Man.

If a poor person won't eat free horse meat, he isn't all that poor.

I see no reason horses are more special than elk.


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## txgirl (Jul 9, 2010)

I agree with bsms, harvest the meat and feed the needy.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I’d agree with slaughter for meat, unwanted ponies from the British moors get fed to zoo animals or go off to dinner plates in Europe, but the US doesn’t exactly have a thriving horse meat industry for all the unwanted horses it already has - they go to Mexico or Canada and then to places like Europe and Japan
They’d need to start by opening up some slaughterhouses that will accept and process horses for the food chain and they can’t seem to do that for domesticated horses.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Sadly, we've created such an overpopulation, that we need a 'hard cull'. Choose the poorest specimens conformation and size-wise for culling, both in the pens and on the ranges. Gather herds and remove the least desirable animals. What's happened is that we round up the horses and the best ones get adopted, leaving some rather poor examples in the pens and on the ranges that nobody wants. If the herds had more overall quality in regards to size, conformation, and spanish traits, they would be more adoptable. Nobody wants a 13-hand, 600 lb horse that's narrow, weedy, ewe-necked, and jug-headed. Just the way it is. Hard cull the ones nobody wants. Keep the best mares and stallions on the range. Put the adoptable horses up for adoption. Rinse and repeat. THEN once the numbers are more manageable, control population with birth control/sterilization according to how the range is faring from year to year. 


It's unsustainable as it is. Not enough land. The BLM hemorrhaging money to care for the horses, and no buyers for them. Exponential population growth. Additional pressures from oil and gas also restrict the ranges. We'd all like that not to be the case, but that's not going to change until our government gets the picture that we can't continue to rely on non-renewable fuel sources, which will be awhile. Nobody wants to see horses killed, but they need to be. Euthanize swiftly with a skilled shooter and a bullet, and give away the meat and hides to food banks or zoos, or export it.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

This is an issue that goes so far beyond "wild horses and burros" that it's not just black and white, cut and dried, or any other metaphor you want to use for it.


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

I agree 100% with bsms. Horse meat is really good, high quality, grass fed protein. We have plenty of hungry folks in our urban areas who could benefit from their harvest and processing. Our range land needs the relief from the problem we created and the solution is a win win. The land wins, and the hungry get fed.


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## WildAbtHorses (Jul 9, 2019)

It will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow at the BLM meeting in Boise. 50,000! That’s crazy. Are there programs that Americans can create that would require a lot of horses? Increase the prison inmates? 4-H on steroids. Outward Bound for Wannabe cowboys and cowgirls?

I’m hooked on The Lion Whisper (he feeds horse to the lions).


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

I am wondering was this thread created to debate what to do with the horses between fertility control and slaughter,
or
was it meant to be a debate between two forms of fertility control?


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## WildAbtHorses (Jul 9, 2019)

Apparently horse meat was legal in the United States up to 2006?
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/is-horse-meat-legal-in-the-us_n_2966499

Except, of course wild horses, which dates back to 1971?

Europe’s 2013 horse meat scandal?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_horse_meat_scandal

I am so happy that I am mainly vegan.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I vote re introduction of mountain lion and wolves to the numbers that were here 150 years ago


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

WildAbtHorses said:


> Apparently horse meat was legal in the United States up to 2006?
> https://www.huffpost.com/entry/is-horse-meat-legal-in-the-us_n_2966499
> 
> Except, of course wild horses, which dates back to 1971?
> ...


You know in 2006 bush didn't outlaw slaughter. He stopped the inspections by taking those jobs away. Nothing could be sold. No rules about shipping over the border though!
Then in 2011 obama offered those inspection jobs back, all you need to do now is open a meat house. So you could say obama legalized horse slaughter. 
You can not, however, slaughter branded mustangs. They are protected.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

LoriF said:


> I vote re introduction of mountain lion and wolves to the numbers that were here 150 years ago


Predators need a larger range than their prey. To control them via natural predators, we'd have to get back to the human population of 1860, somewhere around 40 million versus over 310 million. The trouble is finding 270 million volunteers to leave! Heck, Arizona's population has added over 1 million/decade for the last 50 years. I remember - and MISS - the Arizona of 1975 - about 2.2 million versus over 7 million today. Not sure where I can find 5 million Arizonans who want to leave.

In the Manti Mountains of Utah, predators have made a comeback. When I worked there in 1980, there were no bears and only rumors of a cougar somewhere. Now they have a number of both. A friend lost more sheep to bears than to coyotes recently, and had a couple of horses jumped by a cougar.

But in truth? A 30-06 is a more humane killer than a cougar, and we can control how many hunters are allowed year by year. We have managed deer, elk and antelope for a LONG time with hunting permits. I don't see why horses are too special to be managed like any other form of wildlife. If they are WILD horses, lets manage them like WILD life.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

A bullet is a lot more humane than death by cougar, wolf, or bear. Those are rarely quick, nor painless. I'd rather a horse go with a bullet to the head than die agonizingly while being disemboweled and eaten alive...

A friend caught video of a steer of theirs taken down by wolves on a game cam... the steer bellowed and kicked for 20 minutes while the wolves ate on him before expiring. I would not wish that on anyone, especially a horse!


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

bsms said:


> Predators need a larger range than their prey. To control them via natural predators, we'd have to get back to the human population of 1860, somewhere around 40 million versus over 310 million. The trouble is finding 270 million volunteers to leave! Heck, Arizona's population has added over 1 million/decade for the last 50 years. I remember - and MISS - the Arizona of 1975 - about 2.2 million versus over 7 million today. Not sure where I can find 5 million Arizonans who want to leave.
> 
> In the Manti Mountains of Utah, predators have made a comeback. When I worked there in 1980, there were no bears and only rumors of a cougar somewhere. Now they have a number of both. A friend lost more sheep to bears than to coyotes recently, and had a couple of horses jumped by a cougar.
> 
> But in truth? A 30-06 is a more humane killer than a cougar, and we can control how many hunters are allowed year by year. We have managed deer, elk and antelope for a LONG time with hunting permits. I don't see why horses are too special to be managed like any other form of wildlife. If they are WILD horses, lets manage them like WILD life.



If people want to hunt horse the same way as elk, deer, moose or any other wild game for that matter, I would be all over that. With permits, regulations so they are not over hunted and these regulations enforced. I guess it would have to be figured out how to determine my best riding horse Snowball from a wild animal. There are many people out there who wouldn't care about the difference. And of course there would be the poachers. 
As it stands right now, there are hunting seasons that correlate with the breeding and birthing seasons of wild game. Being as horses gestation period is 11 months, it would probably be hard to not hunt down a pregnant mare unless mares were off limits.

What I am not for is the governments botched job of supposedly being these animals stewards. We are all well aware that what they are doing is not working. Still, I don't think that sending them to slaughter is the answer. It's not that they would be killed and eaten that bothers me. It's the process that bothers me. Animals that are sent to slaughter are being handled by people who could care less about anything other than their bottom dollar which directly leads to the animals mass suffering. The 30-06 doesn't bother me. The starvation, dehydration, stress, fatigue to the point that they are falling down, and abusive handling bothers me.

I also believe that if laws were set to allow the government to legally sell wild horses to people who would in turn sell for slaughter, they would just turn into another money making machine until they become no more. I say 'legally sell' because this is happening already with a blind eye to what is going on. Our government is breaking it's own laws but don't let you or I go out and shoot one to feed our family or catch one to use as a riding horse unless you would like to go to jail and pay hefty fines.

As far as any horses being called domestic animals, I disagree. In one generation of no handling by humans and you have a wild animal. Same thing with cats that we call domestic. Both of these species have not changed very much, especially their brains and how they operate. Dogs on the other hand, who humans have changed dramatically, I would call domestic. 

As far as shooting a horse being more humane than being killed by a cougar, I don't really care. That is nature and if the horses are going to be left wild then that is part of it just like any other wild animal. The bottom line is that we started the problem of over population long before these animals were protected by eliminating so many predators.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

SilverMaple said:


> A bullet is a lot more humane than death by cougar, wolf, or bear. Those are rarely quick, nor painless. I'd rather a horse go with a bullet to the head than die agonizingly while being disemboweled and eaten alive...
> 
> A friend caught video of a steer of theirs taken down by wolves on a game cam... the steer bellowed and kicked for 20 minutes while the wolves ate on him before expiring. I would not wish that on anyone, especially a horse!



This happens everyday to prey animals. Predators have to eat too. So do you suggest that we eliminate all predators because you don't want to see anything die that way?

Being shot may be a lot quicker and easier than the 20 minutes that it takes a predator to kill a prey animal. That 20 minutes is better than the hours and days of suffering that would come with sending and processing horses to slaughter. Horses would not be shot on site unless they are going to be left there to senselessly rot. I don't see the point in that either.

All of us are going to die some way or another and for the most part, we don't have much say as to how that will happen. I personally would rather suffer 5 or 10 minutes of heart attack than weeks and months of illness.

I watched a video of a pod of orcas working to bring down a humpback whale cow and calf. People in a fishing boat filmed almost the whole thing. After about six hours, the cow and calf managed to escape the the pod and everyone was cheering. Honestly, I was glad to see them get away, but I also felt bad for the orcas. They worked so hard to come up with nothing but empty stomachs. I wondered why no one felt bad for them. I would feel bad for me if I worked so hard to eat and ended up with nothing.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

WildAbtHorses said:


> 50,000 horses and burros in overcrowded holding pens isn't an ideal life but do they deserve to go to the slaughterhouse because of our mismanagement? Meat to food banks? Do humans eat horse meat?


They surely do eat horsemeat. All over the world except here. Horses have always been eaten. I'm totally behind eating excess horses.

In ecological reality, "deserving" is not a concept. Acting like that's not true -- just for the ones you happen to love personally -- is understandable but irrational, and clearly it is having big ugly consequences for un-owned horses in the USA.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I’m not aware that it’s illegal to eat horse meat in the US, it isn’t illegal to slaughter them either, or to shoot them.
The issue is the protection given to mustangs and the lack of regulated slaughter houses in the US that can take horses.
The latter needs to be addressed first
If the protection given to mustangs is then lifted they can be routinely rounded up and selectively slaughtered. 
That means that the unhealthy ones are removed and the carcasses used according to assessment and excess healthy ones go for the food chain. 
There’s no need to have them hunted by shooting parties, they’d be treated more like free range cattle
There would be no ‘food for the needy’ in this though. Horse meat that’s good quality sells for too much money in other parts of the world and is always in demand.

That aside
Those options aren’t currently on offer but those in the OP’s poll appear to be so maybe vote on one or other because some action is better than no action at all


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## WildAbtHorses (Jul 9, 2019)

*Excess Wild Horses*

I created a new post with a new questionnaire:

https://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/50-000-wild-horses-pens-blm-805581/

The hard sad truth of the situation.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

LoriF said:


> This happens everyday to prey animals. Predators have to eat too. So do you suggest that we eliminate all predators because you don't want to see anything die that way?...


I don't object to nature operating as nature. It is what is. I have no vote. Nature doesn't ask me.

There aren't many predators capable of controlling a wild horse population. It requires an apex predator, and the only apex predator capable of discerning between a wild horse population and domestic one is man.

It would require a change to the law. Once changed (over the bitter objections of various mustang groups), you would control the population the same way we do with elk. You distinguish between horses with owners and those without by defining WHERE the hunting takes place. You don't need meat inspectors anymore than you need meat inspectors for deer. I used to work deer check stations in my youth. The same sort of thing could be done with horses.

The problem is entirely political - all the city folks who adore mustangs in movies and cartoons. There would be an enormous outcry against a horse hunting season. I doubt it could pass. Unless things get so bad folks will admit we need to take action.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

I thought it was really interesting that they had captured some of the horses from an HMA in Idaho, then returned them to the range several years later. 

They said that the mares were given PZP2, it was 100% effective. 

Of course, the talk is still going for a short amt of time this morning, so other interesting stuff to learn.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

LoriF said:


> This happens everyday to prey animals. Predators have to eat too. So do you suggest that we eliminate all predators because you don't want to see anything die that way?


Nope, not at all. You missed my point, which was the predators are not a 'humane solution' as some suggest... people that would prefer horses be hunted by predators for population control rather than a bullet tend to not realize that 'nature' is not always humane or kind, and that most prey animals suffer greatly. Not to mention that a release of predators into mustang habitat is also the release of predators into ranch land, and is not likely to happen anytime soon.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

I'm not sure if anyone is actually interested in the content of the board meeting.

So as mentioned earlier, this afternoon there was some talk of connecting with 4H to see if there could be something there. 

They also went on to host speakers, one who was a therapeutic riding center that also hosts veterans. 

Now they are discussing international shipments and how the horses can be used for border patrol, and other police academies. 

So much more going on here than what meets the surface. Before that earlier this morning they had some local HMA guys come in to talk about their herds and what they see going on day to day. They talked about how they round up the horses and send some to adoption/holding so it isn't over populated on the range. When they collect the horses they feed them the PZP2, which kept all the mares they rounded up infertile. They said it was about every 4 years. Once the horses are rounded up it becomes increasingly difficult to continue to round them up in consecutive years. The impression I got was that they use PZP2 to reduce the quantity of horses being born each year, but it's only easy for them to do every 4 years when they round up. 

Later on they talked about how the animals in the pastures are all older animals, that's where they have some 30k of mustangs ages 11 or older. The younger animals they hope to adopt or they go into corrals. 

They talked about some other stuff too, looking at their previous years proposals and discussing progress made.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

bsms said:


> But in truth? A 30-06 is a more humane killer than a cougar, and we can control how many hunters are allowed year by year. We have managed deer, elk and antelope for a LONG time with hunting permits. I don't see why horses are too special to be managed like any other form of wildlife. If they are WILD horses, lets manage them like WILD life.


I completely agree. A couple years ago a tribe in the southwest somewhere advertised they were going to sell horse tags as the rez horses outnumbered the feed available. Caused a big uproar from the public of course. 
I saw it on FB and soon the posts were deleted. Whether they decided not to go through with the hunt or the kept it on the down low, hard to say. I can't remember where and when to do much research on the outcome.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Filou said:


> I'm not sure if anyone is actually interested in the content of the board meeting...
> 
> Now they are discussing international shipments and how the horses can be used for border patrol, and other police academies...


The harsh truth is one can breed better quality horses than one gets from random pairings in the wild. If one can't, then breeding horses isn't what one was meant to do. Some BLM mustangs win the genetic lottery but if they were above average horses people would line up to adopt them. 

If THAT is what they are talking about at this conference, then someone needs to smack them in the face.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

bsms said:


> The harsh truth is one can breed better quality horses than one gets from random pairings in the wild. If one can't, then breeding horses isn't what one was meant to do. Some BLM mustangs win the genetic lottery but if they were above average horses people would line up to adopt them.
> 
> If THAT is what they are talking about at this conference, then someone needs to smack them in the face.


Sorry, I'm not sure how they are related. They are not talking about breeding mustangs or domestic horses to use for the boarder patrol or as police animals. 

They said they had mustangs in border patrol and other police stations around the country. The horses are saddle broke, but not broke to all the stuff they might have out at the border. 


I don't think anyone is suggesting to breed more mustangs to use for border patrol! Maybe offering the ones they have, trained, to the border patrol, but not breeding!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

To be honest, all of my friends who have mustangs (and some consider themselves bleeding heart advocates for them), were very selective and chose from the rare few that were much taller than average and had a lot better conformation. None of them adopted the 14 hand stringy ones with big heads. Those made up about 95% of the ones in the pens in Burns Oregon when I went there a few years ago. 

My guess is that there will be no good solution to this problem. After all, if people were so caring about horses, why are the horse sites full of free horse ads for every injured and old horse that can't be ridden anymore? If people won't sacrifice for a horse they've known and loved for years, that their children learned to ride on, how could we expect that a small, jug-headed, untrained mustang would be taken in to their home and cared for? 

These would be fair representatives of the ones I saw. Most were bay and around 14 hands.









The Mustang trainers I've known that try to train and resell them often search through to find the ones they want from different areas. They'll be very selective. For example, the one trainer found a Palomino around 15 hands that looked like a QH. That was an easy resell. He'd also look for ones that appeared stocky or drafty. 
At the BLM corrals I saw a few good looking horses with better colors that were separated out, probably they had plans for those. The rest? Do you blame people for not wanting them for their next western pleasure/dressage/barrel racer? They just don't have the size or conformation.

Bearing in mind these horses are usually small, are you seeing your dream horse here? Maybe one might suit you but the rest...do we really think they're going to find great horse homes?


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

SilverMaple said:


> Not to mention that a release of predators into mustang habitat is also the release of predators into ranch land, and is not likely to happen anytime soon.



Exactly


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

My 20+ year old BLM mustang. I'm 5'8" myself:

















Not seeing much Border Patrol potential here. Surefooted? Yes. Careful about entering a strange place? Yep. But while he CAN carry me, it isn't fair to ask him to do so often. Some of the mustangs are bigger and have better conformation. Many are just like Cowboy. And I'm not seeing much potential for "_international shipments...border patrol, and other police academies_"

The horrible problem is that mustangs make lots of horses just like him, increasing 20% each year, and there is NO MARKET for them. For good reason. They aren't worth the price of hauling them somewhere. I'm told Bandit is half-mustang, with an Arabian sire:

















He has some genuinely good points, but he is SOOOO not a police horse or suitable for the Border Patrol. He would be a pretty tough horse to sell too. Not a lot of "curb appeal". We're buds and that is good enough for me, but it wouldn't make him a horse someone would pay to haul any distance.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

@bsms
Well, they ship them internationally for the german mustang makeover, and some border patrol and police choose these horses. I don't see why that is wrong. Clearly they see something beneficial in the animals they have chosen. Maybe yours isn't right for the job, but that doesn't mean that none are. 

Can you provide a source when you say they multiply at 20% per year? I ask because in the talk today they specifically said that they weren't sure what their growth rate was, and that in some cases it very low and in some very high, and in other cases not tracked at all. You can find that in the link the op posted if they keep the text from the live stream and go back and read over those parts. 

You say you have your horse because you are buds, so why can't other people want to have a mustang as their bud too? There may not be 30,000 homes for mustangs as buds out there, but there are homes for some, so I don't see why it's wrong for the BLM to explore those options like they discussed in their talk. 


Not to anyone specific but just in general,

I just think there's a lot of misinformation out here in general about what's going on. There were only 20-30 people watching the live stream so it seems people don't care about the facts the BLM can provide about the animals they have. I know I learned about how they distribute the animals, what make them qualify for long term holding, what happens to them as they age and die out there, hints as to what they are planning for the future, so many things. I pass judgement on most of this stuff, but regardless of what side you fall on being educated on things is important. 

Sure anyone can agree or disagree with what the BLM has discussed in the talk via my summary, but if you want to talk about it and make judgement on it it might be best to hear it from the source yourself, at least I think it comes across better that way, like you know first hand what you are talking about.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

There are quite a few Border Patrol horses that came through the prison inmate rehab programs. They tend to be surefooted, tough, able to handle bad weather, and they 'alert' to something moving in the brush that, say, a Quarter Horse would not. A couple of the guys working Border Patrol in Montana loved the mustangs, and there are quite a few working the southern border as well. Now, they are VERY selective in what horses they take, and the inmate programs often search for just this type of horse -- a little stockier and larger than the typical mustang and with a calm demeanor, because they know there is a market for them. After the prison programs and other agencies get 'first crack' at the newly removed herds, there often isn't a lot left for the average person to get. I've been to three mustang adoption events where myself or a friend intended to get a horse, and we left with an empty trailer each time because there just wasn't anything decent worth putting the time and effort into, even for a pleasure horse. 

Now, if the BLM puts some effort into culling the undesireable horses and leaving those with the traits people want out on the range to breed, they will end up with a MUCH more marketable product. The mustangs that stand about 15 hands and have Spanish characteristics are snatched up immediately. Let those horses reproduce, and do the hard thing and cull the ones that have no chance of a home, then use the sterilization darts to control the numbers once you have a manageable number on the ranges so that any further gathers consist of animals someone might want to adopt.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

jaydee said:


> I’m not aware that it’s illegal to eat horse meat in the US, it isn’t illegal to slaughter them either, or to shoot them.
> The issue is the protection given to mustangs and the lack of regulated slaughter houses in the US that can take horses.
> The latter needs to be addressed first
> If the protection given to mustangs is then lifted they can be routinely rounded up and selectively slaughtered.
> ...


You can eat whatever you want, but you can't buy horse meat in the USA. Not even in dog food. Illegal to sell. That is the work of animal rights activists.
You can euthanize your own horse. You can shoot your own horse. But horse slaughterhouses were made illegal in the USA. Horses for slaughter must be shipped to Canada or Mexico. Also the work of animal rights activists. 

I think it would GREAT if feral horse herds were run like real breeding herds -- this indeed is exactly how the domestic horse was managed for thousands of years. Still is, in places like Mongolia, and almost everywhere there are feral horse populations like in the Camargue and Galicia in Spain, Assateague Island, and many other places. Somehow, the mustangs of the west just can't be done that way, according the AR's. The BLM is in no position to do so, and they wouldn't be allowed to anyway.


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## pasomountain (Dec 19, 2018)

Wow I thought we were all horse lovers on this board and yet most have no problem with mass killing them. I think it's fantastic that the BLM is finally coming up with other solutions and that should be encouraged and helped along instead of being bad mouthed. Mustangs are part of our heritage and yes we like them and the idea of them--so what. If they can be managed with birth control too then great, lets do it. My taxes are paying for it, right? I hate the idea of a hunting season for horses because as already mentioned domestic horses could also be in danger of being poached by unscrupulous people. Although I have my doubts that many folks would want to eat them since it would be like eating a cat or dog--we just don't accept that here. But sport killing would probably occur and I don't agree with that for any animal. And yes I've been to wild horse auctions and seen some nice ones and some not so much. It's not like the horses can help what they look like. I also heard the wranglers say how much they hate their job and they called the horses dirty names. Where's the compassion? 

Really, why are we worried about rounding up all the wild horses at all? I'll tell you why--it all comes back to the big cattle corporations who insist on hogging all the public grazing lands for their own use. Check this out--

https://rtfitchauthor.com/2017/10/2...s-what-they-allow-for-our-wild-horses-burros/

_*“of the total number of livestock and wild horses and/or burros known or authorized to graze within HMAs and their associated grazing allotments, 1.8 percent are wild horses, 0.4 percent are wild burros and the remaining 97.8 percent are livestock.”
*_
We encourage all people interested in public lands issues to be sure to read the Animal Welfare Institute report (2012) _*Overview of the Management of Wild Horses & Burros*_. AWI presented this to the National Academy of Science. Although this report was issued in 2012, the issues are all current. This report gives an excellent overview of wild horse & burro issues and the mismanagement of the Bureau of Land Management’s Wild Horse & Burro Program. We will be pulling out a few excerpts for some articles, since this report counters all of the false information by sources at the recent National Wild Horse & Burro Advisory Board meeting, by the livestock grazing activists and in the media.

The livestock grazing permit program regularly loses over $100M annually, and to that must be added the cost of Wildlife Services to “control” livestock predators and a lot of collateral wildlife, as well as the majority of the Wild Horse and Burro Program since essentially all remaining HMAs include livestock grazing, and equine AMLs are calculated with this competition in mind. Boiled down, the grazing program brings nothing to taxpayers but around 3X the cost of the entire Wild Horse and Burro Program right now, not including any other costs. So 325 million citizens are being forced to pay to prop up around 20,000 private permit holders, who also benefit by billions in loans against these grazing privileges. Nice work if you can get it!
“BLM/USFS combined grazing receipts for 2014 = $17.1 million, for 2.1 million cows/calves.”
http://dailypitchfork.org/wp-conten...SFS-grazing-analysis_2014_Daily-Pitchfork.pdf
The GAO Reports:
“The Government Accountability Office (GAO) has reported the federal government spends at least $144 million each year managing private livestock grazing on federal public lands, but collects only $21 million in grazing fees—for a net loss of at least $123 million per year.”
http://www.taxpayer.net/user_uploads/file/factsheet_Grazing_Fiscal_Costs(3).pdf


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## WildAbtHorses (Jul 9, 2019)

*response to pasomountain's post*

Hi pasomountain.

Who is talking about:
1. Mass killing.
2. Hunting season for horses.
3. Sport killing.
4. Rounding up all the wild horses.

I have not heard or read that anyone is suggesting any of the above. What I have read about is reasonable, sustainable, and humane processing of a small percentage of these animals for meat for local food banks.

From yesterday's BLM Board Meeting, there were a lot of organizations talking about the great work they are doing on increasing adoptions. The future looks very promising for the majority of wild horses in America.

As for the "97.8 percent are livestock" and "the federal government spends at least $144 million each year managing private livestock grazing on federal public lands" this is all new to me and has me outraged.

Thanks for sharing. Important information.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Let’s be careful.
I know this is a very sensitive subject and we have different ideas on how to address a very real problem, but we do all love horses.
No one wants mass slaughter and I personally wouldn’t be in favor of allowing them to be hunted like deer.
They do need to be controlled though, for the health of the ‘herd’. If that means a properly organized, humane slaughter then it should be done as close to the location as possible. That sort of thing costs money but the meat could be sold to offset some of that cost. 
I’m not seeing the giving it away to the needy as being viable - especially if it’s not even legal to sell it to eat in the US (@Avna)
It is sold to eat in the UK but it’s never really been popular as a choice compared to the traditional beef, lamb, chicken etc.


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

The grazing lease situation is yet again another massive failure of govt. managing resources that should be managed by the states. The overhead and waste of the BLM managing graze leases is unreal and they do a terrible job of it. I work on co-op graze leases a lot which are graze leases up in the mountains on areas owned by timber companies,( like Weyerhauser), the state, and the BLM. Almost without fail the BLM portions are unmitigated disasters, the state areas are better, and the private lands are usually the most pristine and have exceptional management. I get to see every day why letting the federal govt manage any kind of natural resource is a terrible idea from rampant wolf problems to over and under graze issues to ridiculous regulations for things that are non-existent in a given area, to weed problems the list goes on and on and on. The federal govt is a horrible manager of public resources and an even worse manager of the money they get from us in taxes.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Filou said:


> Well, they ship them internationally for the german mustang makeover, and some border patrol and police choose these horses. I don't see why that is wrong...
> 
> Can you provide a source when you say they multiply at 20% per year?...
> 
> ...





> Wild horse and burro program in Fiscal Year 2018.
> 
> Nationwide population estimates: 88,090
> Total removed: 11,472
> ...


THAT is the problem. *61,000 excess on range PLUS 48,000 held in pens. About 110,000 surplus horses and burros. Adoptions run under 3,200/year.*


> There were 81,951 animals on 26.9 million acres of public rangelands and 44,730 animals in corrals or pastures as of mid-2018, and yet the BLM had only 4,099 animals adopted or sold in 2017. In fact, the rate of adoptions has stayed around that number since 1996, but the number of wild horses and burros on ranges has doubled from about 40,000 in 2012 to the nearly 82,000 in 2018. [Note: *That is a 12+% annual growth rate including all attempts to reduce the population.*]
> 
> To give some perspective, the BLM says ideally 27,000 of these animals can live in balance with livestock and wildlife on public lands.
> 
> https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/180915o.aspx


Bandit & I are buds, but I consider both him and Cowboy to be unsaleable. I might be able to give Bandit away. MIGHT. But he'd be a poor match for many riders since many riders demand obedience and obeying his human master is pretty low on Bandit's list of priorities. Cowboy's former lesson horse days have made him worthless for any arena riding. Neither one LOOKS like much of a horse.

There is a reason why the BLM cannot GIVE the horses away! People want to use their horses and mustangs aren't as good a match for what people want & expect as most intentionally bred horses. Not surprising, since Mother Nature isn't interested in the same things humans want!

As I wrote, a few of the BLM mustangs win the genetics lottery and are desirable for human uses. Most are poor choices in terms of build and attitude for what the large majority of riders seek in a horse they may own for 20-30 years and spend thousands on each year in farrier/vet/feed bills. When you go to sell something - home, car, horse - how the current owner feels about the item doesn't count for squat. It is how the BUYER views the item that sets the price.

And there are not many "buyers" for the average mustang. They cannot compete with purpose bred Quarter Horses, Arabians, etc.

The math tells me talk about shipping mustangs to international buyers or the Border Patrol wanting them is just ****ing in the wind. Whistling past the graveyard, if one prefers. 110,000 surplus. Reproduction after control methods of 12% a year. This is insanity, and it is driven entirely by politics and the votes of people who will never, EVER, own a horse! :evil:

PS: I would be in favor of hunting them like deer. I see no other option likely to handle the math. Even that would be a challenge given how remote many of these areas are. The problem is growing more severe every year because there are no popular, politically acceptable answers for it.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

Off to a great chat this morning,

talking about taking pictures of some of the defects the horses have, club foot, parrot mouth, etc. They are talking about what horses get turned back, and how they identify ones with issues and what they do with them.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

Ok bsms...

I'm not really here to debate with you what the horses are worth, to you, or others. What should be done with them. 
That is your opinion. I'm just reporting on what they are going over in the talk. I just want to make that clear. 

Personally, I also find importance is being explicit when talking with the numbers, 20 is not 7.25, is not 12, clearly they don't know so I personally don't think it's fair for anyone to make up assumptions about what's going on. That is why I am listening. 

I just want to be informed, and report information to those who may have interest and not be available to listen to the talk all day.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

Now going on to talk about the costs of the pens, cost per horse, what contributes to those costs. Moving from there they are talking about fertility drugs and things involved with that.


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

Filou said:


> Now going on to talk about the costs of the pens, cost per horse, what contributes to those costs. Moving from there they are talking about fertility drugs and things involved with that.


What did they say cost per horse is currently?


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

It seems like the board is now getting into the wording of their decisions. 

They have said that they want to provide training in evaluating conformation or genetic defects to volunteers. They are also talking about sterilizing the horses with defects and turning them back out to the herd. They have to go over the justification process for euthanizing them, which includes club foot. They said that they don't think this is being done because some people are turning out the colored horses because that's what they think the people want. They are trying to review and recommend new guidance jurisdictions to remedy this situation.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

AndyTheCornbread said:


> What did they say cost per horse is currently?


I'm just going to go off memory for one instance, you could look at the text recording and check it for more detail. 
They said it was about $1.25 to keep them in the pasture holding per horse per day (these are the pastures in OK where they have some 30k horses over the age of 11.)
I had to go give my guy his antibiotics this morning so I missed part while I was driving through the dead zone, though I'm sure they discussed costs of corral horses, range horses, and then I caught the tail end going over the fertility drug costs and production.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

Little snippet on the costs of fertility control. Please not this is only for PZP administered by darting. 

"It says we're paying $512 a dose. 
>> No -- so -- so for PZP22, it's right about $500. For PZP, it's right about $30. You need two doses, so for every animal, is about 60. So if we jump to the slide there, the $512, that includes all of the costs related to darting them as well. "

I can't find the text from before that where they went over the costs of the animals in holding, I guess I had my computer closed!

Then they go into talking about the costs and how they can changed based on other factors, eg sage grouse. How some facilities are not full year round but still require full time staff and how that could lead to differences in the holding costs, just to name a few.


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## pasomountain (Dec 19, 2018)

WildAbtHorses said:


> Hi pasomountain.
> 
> Who is talking about:
> 1. Mass killing.
> ...


Apparently you're not reading all the posts then. Here's one about a proposed hunt--
_But in truth? A 30-06 is a more humane killer than a cougar, and we can control how many hunters are allowed year by year. We have managed deer, elk and antelope for a LONG time with hunting permits. I don't see why horses are too special to be managed like any other form of wildlife. If they are WILD horses, lets manage them like WILD life._
I completely agree. A couple years ago a tribe in the southwest somewhere advertised they were going to sell horse tags as the rez horses outnumbered the feed available. Caused a big uproar from the public of course. 
I saw it on FB and soon the posts were deleted. Whether they decided not to go through with the hunt or the kept it on the down low, hard to say. I can't remember where and when to do much research on the outcome. 

Others have mentioned "hard culling" or killing all the horses with undesirable traits which would end up being thousands which equals mass killing. 

I mentioned sport killing because it could turn into that if hunting was legalized and also I've seen in the news where wild horses have already been found shot dead.

I realize nobody is going to round up all the wild ones but that is the only way the Cattleman's Assoc. would be satisfied. 

Food banks would have to lie about what kind of meat it is to get most people to eat it. Zoo's would take it to feed their predator's.


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## WildAbtHorses (Jul 9, 2019)

*Article from 2018 on*

The BLM report noted that there now are 83,000 wild horses and burros on a range that it says can adequately sustain no more than 26,715 such animals. In addition there are another 46,000 unadapted animals being warehoused in pens and holding pastures. The cost of maintaining those no-longer wild horses and burros drains 60 percent of the agency’s current $81 million annual budget for handling the animals.

https://sparkstrib.com/2018/05/05/blm-calculates-costs-of-wild-horse-options/

2018
60 % of $81,000,000 annual budge = $48,600,000
46,000 horses divided by 48,600,000 = $1,057/each
~$3.00 per day per horse, which doesn’t sound like a lot
BUT if the range can only hold 26,715 and they're 83,000 out there means 57,715 still need to be put into holding pens? Add another $61,004,755

2019
Additional 4,000 horses x $1,057 = $4,228,000 increase

$48,600,000 + $4,228,000 = $52,828,000
141,000,000 American tax payers = .38 cents per year per tax payer

(with the additional $61,004,755 + $52,828,000 = $113,832,755 means .81 cents per year per tax payer) sound very cheap...


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## pasomountain (Dec 19, 2018)

Filou said:


> It seems like the board is now getting into the wording of their decisions.
> 
> They have said that they want to provide training in evaluating conformation or genetic defects to volunteers. They are also talking about sterilizing the horses with defects and turning them back out to the herd. They have to go over the justification process for euthanizing them, which includes club foot. They said that they don't think this is being done because some people are turning out the colored horses because that's what they think the people want. They are trying to review and recommend new guidance jurisdictions to remedy this situation.


These are some of the best ideas yet. I was just thinking last night why not geld all the males with defects and apply birth control to the females then re-release them. This should be done to all the horses currently doomed to a life in the holding pens. There is plenty of public grazing land to support letting them all go after sterilization. Obviously this would apply to all future round ups as well so eventually the herd levels would drop and stabilize--no need the euth any of them really unless they were in pain and suffering.


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## WildAbtHorses (Jul 9, 2019)

Thanks pasomountain. I appreciate you helping understand this situation.

I am totally against HUNTING or SPORT KILLING of any animal and especially wild horses and burros.

I do not know what 30-06 means, but I did assume it involved shooting, but I thought that was in jest. My bad.

I am VERY happy to pay more in taxes to make sure the horses that are in holding pens are well taken care of.

I am not opposed to ethically and humanely processing a small amount of wild horse and burro to help fund the wild horse and burro adoption process. What does the BLM do with the animals they euthanize? Do they waste the meat or sell it or give it away?

I am not fond of "cattleman assoc" in general and that their cattle are grazing on Government property. I am mainly a vegan, and if I eat any form of meat, including chickens and chicken's eggs, they have to have had a happy life. e.g., I try to consume only animals that have had a happy life... until their humane demise.

If Americans, including those hungry, do not or will not eat horse meat than any butchered horses should be sold to zoos. I am okay with that.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

They are back after lunch, doing their little talk about BLM idaho specifically, then my understanding is that in a little bit here they will be open to a public comment period. 

Or looks like it might be starting now.


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## WildAbtHorses (Jul 9, 2019)

*Link to New Post: Wild Horses vs. Livestock*

Wild Horses & Burros Vs. Private Dometic Live Stock on Public Lands
https://www.horseforum.com/horse-fo...ros-vs-private-dometic-805635/#post1970742895

50,000 Wild Horses and Burros in Holding Pens:
https://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/50-000-wild-horses-pens-blm-805581/

PZP Contraceptive and GnRH Sterilization:
https://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/blms-wild-horses-mtg-boise-idaho-805555/


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Filou said:


> Ok bsms...
> 
> Personally, I also find importance is being explicit when talking with the numbers, 20 is not 7.25, is not 12, clearly they don't know...


For fiscal year 2018:

Beginning inventory = 81,951
Ending inventory = 88,090

The current estimated on-range wild horse and burro population (as of March 1, 2019) is 87,885, a 7.25 percent increase over the 2018 estimate of 81,951.

That gives a 7.25% increase on the range at the end of the year. But 11,472 were removed, so the total population increase was 17,611. With a beginning inventory of 81,951, that was an increase in population of 21.5% in one year. Had the BM done nothing, the end year number on the range would have been 99,701. 

Hard numbers. My guess of 20% was an underestimate.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

@pasomountain. The National Cattleman's Association is NOT in favor of exterminating the feral horses. 

Ranchers like seeing them. We don't mind feeding them when they come on our private property. Just like we don't mind feeding and watering all the deer, elk, antelope, birds, rodents, and amphibians. 

But we want sensible management that benefits all species.

Not every rancher that uses govt leases belongs to the cattlemen association. Some raise sheep. . But y'all should appreciate the work they do improving conditions for wildlife. 

How many acres of riparian ground have you improved? How many acres of forage have you removed the noxious weeds from? How many roads and paths that have begun eroding into streams from recreational users have you and your friends recovered?

You're welcome.


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## WildAbtHorses (Jul 9, 2019)

it sounds like the public needs to unite and question the BLM and their management of America's public lands

reminds me of Tim DeChristopher saving attempting to save 22,500 areas (116 parcels) https://rtfitchauthor.com/2013/07/02/blms-oil-gas-lease-corruption-exposed/

these posts have certainly educated me about some of the issues facing America and that we all basically want the same thing a healthy and happy land and animals


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

bsms said:


> For fiscal year 2018:
> 
> Beginning inventory = 81,951
> Ending inventory = 88,090
> ...


The 11k horses removed do not count toward population increase. They clearly decreased the population by 11k by removing them. The population increased by about 6k. Around 7% growth. You can't just add those 11k horses to the 6k horses and say that's the population growth, it's not. 

Here's why this is tricky, even to people who are trained in counting, tracking, and monitoring populations. Say for example you took 200 horses off the range in 2015, then 3 years later you reintroduced those animals to the range. Would you count that as population growth? You could say the population decreased then increased, but did the population change if you compare the years 2014 to 2018? What if you compare the years 2016 to 2018?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Filou said:


> The 11k horses removed do not count toward population increase. They clearly decreased the population by 11k by removing them. The population increased by about 6k. Around 7% growth. You can't just add those 11k horses to the 6k horses and say that's the population growth, it's not.


Not only CAN I add them, I MUST. I was giving 20% growth as the population increase if horses are not controlled in any way. If the BLM does nothing, horse herds can grow at 20% a year. Or more. Which is why control is vital.

To calculate that growth, one must include BOTH the increase of the horses left on the range WITH all those removed as a control measure. Once you know the rate of growth without control measures, you can determine how much control is needed. You can also see that right now the BLM is only about 50% effective at controlling the growth, at a time when the herds are already 3 times larger than the feed available for sustained use.

If we are only 50% effective at controlling current growth, and the herds need to be reduced by 70%, then obviously what we are doing now - our best efforts - are grossly inadequate. It makes discussion of shipping mustangs to Germany or increasing their use by the Border Patrol ridiculous! We are not even controlling the current growth, let alone making a dent in reducing the herds to where they are sustainable!


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

Even if you include the removed horses and their 7% growth it comes out to about 750 additional horses. If you include the 11k horses, and their theoretical 750 horse growth rate then the population growth % does not change. 

Calculating the population growth based on the BLM doing nothing is different than calculating the actual population growth rate. Obviously the BLM is removing the horses, so it's not accurate to include removed animals in the growth estimations.


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

??? He is calculating overall uncontrolled growth to establish what the baseline would need to be for effective management. Uncontrolled growth is, as bsms says, over 20%.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

Hey, that's totally fine, but that's not an accurate description of what is going on on the range!

Horses ARE being removed from the range therefore it IS controlled. I think that makes the 7% a more accurate number. It's not a hypothetical situation, it's a real situation.

The difference is one is a net increase, the other is a gross increase. Both are correct, but one is more accurate of what IS happening on the range, and one is more accurate of WHAT COULD BE happening on the range.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

Hmm,
Last post didn't go through...


Another way of looking at this. 

By removing 11,000 horses the BLM has mitigated 13% of population growth on the range.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

My original quote:



bsms said:


> ...The horrible problem is that mustangs make lots of horses just like him, increasing 20% each year, and there is NO MARKET for them...


The mustangs make horses at a rate of 20% or more a year. They have to go somewhere. Where do they go? From the BLM:

Wild horse and burro program in Fiscal Year 2018.

Total beginning fiscal year: 81,951
Total removed: 11,472
Total on range at the end of fiscal year: 87,885
Estimated sustainable population: 26,690

Of the 11,472 removed:
Total placed into adoption: 3,158
Sold "to any willing buyers": 1,451
Added to holding pens/pastures: 6,863
Total in holding: 48,375. max capacity of holding: 56,581

BTW: The total removed greatly increased this year. In 2017 the total removed from the range was 4,209, in 2016 it was 3,320 and in 2015 it was 3,819.

61% of the Wild Horse and Burro budget is being spent on holding horses. That is down from 66% in 2015. All data from here:

https://www.blm.gov/programs/wild-horse-and-burro/about-the-program/program-data


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

I can appreciate that question. It's a different kind of discussion from the population growth management angle. 

If the BLM controls their range population growth potential through capturing and removing mustangs, what will they do with all the animals they capture and hold?


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## pasomountain (Dec 19, 2018)

boots said:


> @*pasomountain* . The National Cattleman's Association is NOT in favor of exterminating the feral horses.
> 
> Ranchers like seeing them. We don't mind feeding them when they come on our private property. Just like we don't mind feeding and watering all the deer, elk, antelope, birds, rodents, and amphibians.
> 
> ...


Good for them. They should repair the destruction caused by millions of cattle. What put me off from the cattlemen or ranchers or whatever is when I read years ago that they are behind the slaughtering of the last wild buffalo in Yellowstone--

"“It would be devastating. It could put you out of business,” says Gilles Stockton, director of the Montana Cattleman’s Association’s central district. BUT
there has never been a confirmed instance of bison spreading brucellosis to cattle. That’s not to say that buffalo _can’t _infect cows, the way several other wild species, like elk, are known to do. They certainly could, at least in theory. But a buffalo-to-cow transmission has never been documented—not in the past century, not ever." 
You notice they are not slaughtering all the elk that could infect cattle though because elk bring in a lot of money from hunting.

Now if the Cattlemen are forming an alliance with wild horse advocates then it's more likely because these new sterilization events will drastically reduce the herds that compete with their precious cattle--not because they all have warm fuzzy feelings about mustangs-- 

https://www.statesmanjournal.com/st...dups-irks-mustang-advocacy-groups/3574917002/

Sheep are also destructive because they rip grass out by the roots--unlike horses who just crop the grass.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I wasn’t going to comment. I really wasn’t. I wasn’t even going to read. However I couldn’t help it. I am a cattleman. Did you know I own a mustang too? Did you know I actually enjoy seeing small herds of mustangs when I’m pushing cows? Did you know I love horses in a way you probably don’t even process?

Blame me. Blame me and cows for the destruction of your imaginary paradise. Continue to do that with zero lack of actual education to back yourself. Who do you think makes sure there is water on the desert? Who do you think is bound and determined to take care of the land so that it can be used the next year for their cows? It is people like me. It is people like me who actually know friends who’s cows were kicked off the range to save the horses. Do you want to know what happened? I could show you pictures. No one took care of the water. Horses did die. It was sad. No grass is left for them to eat.

I think those blaming the ranchers need to take a freaking step back. What do you actually do to protect the environment other than complain about something you obviously lack education on? 

People do ruin the land. Look at your cities and your malls and your giant buildings. You grow buildings in places that are truly the best natural environments available. They don’t exist any more though.

You support pounds and spaying dogs and cats, yet you see horses as a different thing entirely. Why aren’t their bugs in your cities? I really do wonder. Things that are pests to you are made to disappear in your worlds. However you imagine us ruining paradise. The people who actually care and actually manage it.

If it is the public who owns the wild horses, the honest truth is you are the ones doing a terrible job of protecting the environment. All of this while you live in asphalt jungles not feeding anyone. There, it looks like I am capable of being almost as insulting as you.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

There ISN'T destruction caused by millions of cattle, and sheep are not destructive either. Overgrazing - by ANY animal including mustangs - is destructive. Managed grazing is not.


























Reality check: After 30 years of grazing by sheep and cattle, the mountains I did vegetation surveys in 40 years ago are in better shape now than 40 years ago. Done right, sheep grazing improves forage for wildlife. For the record, I've never owned a single sheep or a cow. But I once seriously considered range management as a profession, did work for the US Forest Service and Utah Division of Wildlife Resources and every few years visit the mountains I came to love while working.

The idea that unrestricted mustangs are good but managed grazing is bad blows my mind. The ranchers I've known over the last 4 decades LOVE the outdoors. You have to LIVE somewhere to truly learn to love it. I only dabble in the outdoors. Ranchers live there. Too many of the activists only see it on TV. 

Just read @Knave 's reply. Like some of my friends, she knows the outdoors in a way I have never experienced. You haven't heard someone passionate about the land until you meet someone who grew up on it and lived on it and had kids follow them on it. And grandkids!


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## WildAbtHorses (Jul 9, 2019)

bsms I totally agree with every thing you’ve posted and I’m enjoying the stories and pictures. 

I’ve come along way since Tuesday! And, I understand ranchers and gas/oil companies lease land.

My top concern now is with The BLM and with the Federal Govt. I’m still milling over everything. I want to study the land under BLM’s control. Need to read the laws pertaining to wild horses. Would like to know more about health herd sizes for healthy reproduction.

What if the majority of colts and foals were captured after they’d been weaned? They would be easier to train?

It is such a complicated situation. Sounds like we need more professional horse trainers. How about a vocational school just for wild horse and burro care, training, and management. It could be run during summer break... for high school and college students.


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

@Knave I wondered when this stuff was going to get to be too much for you and you would have to comment. I was going to PM you and warn you not to let your husband read through it and risk him having an aneurysm or sending his blood pressure through the roof.

@bsms is correct, managed grazing is incredibly good for the land. Unmanaged grazing by anything including wild horses is not.

My family has been managing our lands for generations of re-use for almost 200 years now. It really takes all the self control I have not to get angry and post so much more of my mind when I read these threads.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I read these posts to learn what ignorance the "save every horse and the rest of the living things in the biosphere be danged" groups are using to separate people from their money. 

I cannot grasp how people can be so heartless against deer, elk, birds, etc. Or not grasp the symbiosis between species. 

Cattle and sheep ranchers willingly move their animals around private pastures or lease ground. Like @Knave points out, we are here for the long term. It's where we live. 

It angers me that some stubbornly refuse to recognize the contribution ranchers make to our wild spaces. Contributions of time, energy, and their own money. While they themselves do nothing. It would be laughable if it wasn't causing harm to living things.

I'm always reminded how much more I love the horses and other wild things than others apparently can.


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## pasomountain (Dec 19, 2018)

OK I'm sorry if I offended anyone--I really am. Of course there are many like you who manage things correctly and love the wildlife including horses. But we wouldn't even be having this conversation if all ranchers were as nice as you. Mostly it's the large corporations running the show that create all the bad press. 
https://rtfitchauthor.com/2015/08/18/wild-horses-vs-cattle/

And for the record you have no idea where I live--asphalt jungle?? Just because I happen to board my horses now doesn't mean I'm not a country girl. I'd say you were way more insulting and uninformed in your response but who cares. It's always good to see both sides of a controversial subject.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The article you link to @pasomountain is beyond stupid. Beyond grossly stupid.

"_And are the ranchers grateful for this government WELFARE program? Hell no, to this day they complain when they pay only $1.69 per cow/calf pair per month while their cattle over graze on the public’s land and pollute the public’s streams....

No WELFARE rancher wants wild horses competing with his cows for forage on the public land he is getting on the cheap, so the horses gotta go....

Can’t have the public seeing our once beautiful symbol of the west, now incarcerated. Their sad eyes. Broken families. Reminds me of another time and place. Europe 1943…_"

The writer of that drivel doesn't know 1% of what is needed to know squat all about management of public lands. You truly cannot fix stupid. Ignorance? Yes. Hard core STUPID? Unfixable!

I'm done with this thread. My blood pressure medicine can't handle the load. The writer of that article...words fail me, and that doesn't happen often! :evil::evil::evil::evil::evil:


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## pasomountain (Dec 19, 2018)

I linked that article because it said something about the billion dollar corporations running cows. I didn't read all of it unfortunately. The Europe 1943 part is going too far. OK I'm done too. This thread should probably be closed.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ogical_sociological_and_political_environment

The above is a more scientist paper on the differences of grazing between regulated cattle and unregulated feral horses. The cattle don't get a complete pass. And we take scientific criticisms seriously. Always trying to do the best for all.

It's not as emotion-inducing as what the "save all the feral horses" groups put out, but it is information.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I will have to bow out again myself because I just get irritated and I don’t know how to explain what I wish the outside world would know.

I am sorry I insulted you in that way; I have no idea where you live or that you board, that wasn’t what I was getting at. I meant that most of the information against the rancher seems to come from that type of area. I hate to hear how awful I am from groups that get their information from people with no knowledge of the land. I wasn’t meaning you specifically, just that created opinion in people. There is so much I feel about the information fed to the majority about so many things.

I guess if you knew the hours and physical labor we spend keeping water flowing, or the money we spend from our pockets to salt all of the animals and to maintain the waters for all of the animals, not just our own. We don’t get paid back for our time and effort, and to top it off we are made out to be the villains to the majority. 

It’s the lack of continuity between information sources too. If one were to say the horses need saved and released, how do they believe the cows would be fed that in turn feed them? If they believe in feed lots then they are asking for more land to be farmed. Same goes if they were to say become vegans. Then, on the side, like the area the cattle were removed from, the horses would eventually die and the land would be truly damaged.

So much goes into it that is lost in translation. It is just too bad. I believe if I didn’t know what I do, I may have been just like that. Yet, I cannot write a paper long enough to bring all of the information together so that a person could truly be informed. It is sad, and I get irritated.

Now, on another note, to the OP: they offer a program called TIP I think. I debated doing it. It is a good theory, but you have to get the horse sold. It is hard to sell a mustang. That brand brings their value way down. Lots of people who could ride them fine kind of look down on them. Some of it might just be the emotion involved in these overall issues.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Closing for review (and rest).


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

Everything that needs to be said has been said. It's time to put this thread to rest for good.


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