# Which Wormer is the best?!?!?!?!?!



## kelliannejoseph

What wormer do you use??

Do you alternate your wormers??

What would you recommend????


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## JustDressageIt

I use ivermectin 3/4 of the time, and something with Prazanquitel (sp?) once. My horse is allergic to Moxidectin, otherwise I'd use it at some point too.
You will get conflicting reports. Some say to rotate, others say it's not necessary.


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## CowGirlUp9448

I rotate every worming from Ivermection to Equimax ( I really like this, and so does my vet). The way my vet told me was what one wormer didn't get the other kind would and if you use the same kind all the time the body becomes immuned to it.. Like JustDressageIt said everyone will most likely tell you something different. But the main thing is to go by what works best for your horse.


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## waterbuggies

I just went to a seminar that seminole feed was putting on. Sorry starting to run off on a bunny trail, anywho they had a rep there from Pfizer there and she stated that the best treatment is to rotate every 2 months between the 3 classes: Benzimidazoles, Macrocyclic, and Pyrantels.
If you do a daily wormer that you still need to use paste twice a year, what I liked was that she didn't use brand names unless someone asked what brand was in a classes, she didn't push any products.


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## Vidaloco

I used to not rotate but I found this on a vet recommended site and put it on my fridge. Its what I use. The parenthesis is the brand name. 

January- Moxidectin (Quest)

April- Pyrantel (Strongid)

July- Ivermectin + Praziquantel (Equimax)

October- Fenbendazole (Safe-guard or Panacur)

Feel free to stick it on your fridge


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## kchfuller

i rotate too ... i buy like 4 or 5 at a time and then use those and then buy another 4-5 (i but 4-5 different wormer's)... hope that makes sense.


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## cowgirl4jesus94

Vidaloco said:


> I used to not rotate but I found this on a vet recommended site and put it on my fridge. Its what I use. The parenthesis is the brand name.
> 
> January- Moxidectin (Quest)
> 
> April- Pyrantel (Strongid)
> 
> July- Ivermectin + Praziquantel (Equimax)
> 
> October- Fenbendazole (Safe-guard or Panacur)
> 
> Feel free to stick it on your fridge


That is a good rotation guide. I use those wormers in about the same order.


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## kelliannejoseph

Vidaloco said:


> I used to not rotate but I found this on a vet recommended site and put it on my fridge. Its what I use. The parenthesis is the brand name.
> 
> January- Moxidectin (Quest)
> 
> April- Pyrantel (Strongid)
> 
> July- Ivermectin + Praziquantel (Equimax)
> 
> October- Fenbendazole (Safe-guard or Panacur)
> 
> Feel free to stick it on your fridge


 

Great Idea!!! I like it, and yes it is going on my fridge! LOL


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## qtrhrsecrazy

I quit using Quest. Quest sluffed all the white skin areas off a friend of mines horse. Vet confirmed it was the Quest.. Ft Dodge settled out of court with her


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## Ryle

Actually, all of those recommendations are out-dated and poor. 
The typical rotational deworming program and paste dewormers are both poor choices due to the development of parasite resistance to commonly used drugs and the fact that controlling parasite reinfection rates can be managed by deworming only 2-4 times a year. Rotational deworming is no longer an adequate or appropriate deworming program for adult horses. This "recipe" is about 40 years old and was designed at a time when a different type of GI parasite was the most prevelant and when different drugs were in use to control parasites. It doesn't take into account the difference in the current situation to the one 40 years ago when large strongyles were the main issue rather than small strongyles which have a very different life cycle. Nor does it take into account that the drugs we use now are all broad spectrum and have different lengths of time when they prevent egg shedding from occuring after dosing. There are also too many issues with strongyles developing resistance to 2 of the 4 most commonly used dewormers on the market---fenbendazole (more than 90% of areas tested have resistant strongyles) and pyrantel (around 1/2 of areas tested have strongyles resistant to this drug). And resistance is starting to be seen in strongyles to ivermectin---1st study showing it was done in KY in the last couple of years. 

It's now known that all adult horses living in the same situation do not necessarily need to be dewormed on the same schedule. 50% of horses in a herd will control parasite loads on their own due to natural resistance. Only about 20-30% of horses carry heavy parasite loads. Thus each horse should be dewormed based upon an understanding of his own personal resistance to parasites. The best recommendation is now 2-4 dewormings a year based upon knowing which horses carry lots of parasites and which tend to carry little parasite load. 

All adult horses in the continental US/Canada should be dewormed spring and fall with ivermectin/praziquantel or moxidectin/praziquantel. Other than those 2 standard dewormings, the rest of the deworming program should be based upon location and the horse's own resistance to parasites. The new recommendation is 2-4 dewormings per year based upon fecal egg counts used to determine the normal amount of egg shedding each horse does during the time of year when the weather in your area is most conducive to strongyle larva development and environmental survival. In the northern states in the US and in Canada, this means running a fecal egg count in the middle of summer (3 months after spring dosing if you used ivermectin or 4 months after spring dosing if you used ivermectin). In the southern US and Mexico you would be looking at testing in the middle of the winter (same time after spring deworming as listed above). Then based upon the number of eggs per gram of feces you can determine if you need more than the spring/fall dewormings and if so if you need 1 or 2 more dosings. 

In the northern US and Canada, deworming should be discontinued during the winter months because the environmental conditions are not conducive to reinfection---that time of year has been proven to have extremely low reinfection rates. In the southern US and Mexico the opposit is true....deworming can be discontinued during the heat of summer because temps over 85 degrees lead to the infective strongyle larva dying quickly in the environment so the reinfection rates are lowest then. 

For more detailed information check out the deworming webinar that was aired via The Horse magazine's website in April. Be prepared to sit for a while because it is an hour long presentation, but it's well worth the time. The veterinarian gives you all the information on strongyles and deworming in adult horses that you've always wanted to know and then some. It is a wonderful lecture. (And have plenty of paper and a pen.) http://www.thehorse.com/Video.aspx?vID=1…
(Craig R. Reinemeyer, DVM PhD --parasitologist)


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## New_image

If you go to Welcome to Safe-Guard there is an excellent chart for rotating de-womers. Different seasons and worm types require different ingredients de-womer wise, this chart is a good guideline.


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## kelliannejoseph

Thank you Cindy D. I will deffently be watching the video


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## Ryle

New_image said:


> If you go to Welcome to Safe-Guard there is an excellent chart for rotating de-womers. Different seasons and worm types require different ingredients de-womer wise, this chart is a good guideline.


This is actually one of the WORST recommendations out there. 2 out of 6 dewormings are likely to be ineffective because they are with fenbendazole which has WIDE SPREAD resistance issues (90+% of areas tested have strongyles that are resistant to this drug and strongyles are the main concern in adult horses). And 4 out of 6 may actually be ineffective because resistance among strongyles to pyrantel is seen in around 50% of areas tested. So of the 6 dewormings recommended only 2 are really highly likely to be effective. And the chart doesn't take environmental factors into consideration and has you deworming all year long when environmental factors control parasite reinfect for a portion of the year in the US. This type of deworming schedule is the reason why resistance to the drugs in use has become so widespread so quickly.

Again, many horses only need to be dewormed twice a year. Each horse's personal resistance to parasites, management practices and environmental conditions should be considered when setting up a deworming program.


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## dw9501

Note sure if there is a "best" and it may depend on the horses age.

Mt vet recommends the following:ivermectin (with praziquantel) every 60-90 days, substituting Anthelcide (oxibendazole) in in April and October.


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## Ryle

dw9501 said:


> Mt vet recommends the following:ivermectin (with praziquantel) every 60-90 days, substituting Anthelcide (oxibendazole) in in April and October.


I simply don't see the sense in this plan. You are treating for tapeworms way more than necessary and over-exposure to dewormers speeds the development of parasite resistance. In your area, deworming during the summer is un-necessary just based upon the weather so there isn't any reason to dose with Ivermectin in the summer months. And in Oct. you should be treating with Ivermectin to kill the bot larva.


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## Vidaloco

Ryle said:


> Actually, all of those recommendations are out-dated and poor.
> The typical rotational deworming program and paste dewormers are both poor choices due to the development of parasite resistance to commonly used drugs and the fact that controlling parasite reinfection rates can be managed by deworming only 2-4 times a year. Rotational deworming is no longer an adequate or appropriate deworming program for adult horses. This "recipe" is about 40 years old and was designed at a time when a different type of GI parasite was the most prevelant and when different drugs were in use to control parasites. It doesn't take into account the difference in the current situation to the one 40 years ago when large strongyles were the main issue rather than small strongyles which have a very different life cycle. Nor does it take into account that the drugs we use now are all broad spectrum and have different lengths of time when they prevent egg shedding from occuring after dosing. There are also too many issues with strongyles developing resistance to 2 of the 4 most commonly used dewormers on the market---fenbendazole (more than 90% of areas tested have resistant strongyles) and pyrantel (around 1/2 of areas tested have strongyles resistant to this drug). And resistance is starting to be seen in strongyles to ivermectin---1st study showing it was done in KY in the last couple of years.
> 
> It's now known that all adult horses living in the same situation do not necessarily need to be dewormed on the same schedule. 50% of horses in a herd will control parasite loads on their own due to natural resistance. Only about 20-30% of horses carry heavy parasite loads. Thus each horse should be dewormed based upon an understanding of his own personal resistance to parasites. The best recommendation is now 2-4 dewormings a year based upon knowing which horses carry lots of parasites and which tend to carry little parasite load.
> 
> All adult horses in the continental US/Canada should be dewormed spring and fall with ivermectin/praziquantel or moxidectin/praziquantel. Other than those 2 standard dewormings, the rest of the deworming program should be based upon location and the horse's own resistance to parasites. The new recommendation is 2-4 dewormings per year based upon fecal egg counts used to determine the normal amount of egg shedding each horse does during the time of year when the weather in your area is most conducive to strongyle larva development and environmental survival. In the northern states in the US and in Canada, this means running a fecal egg count in the middle of summer (3 months after spring dosing if you used ivermectin or 4 months after spring dosing if you used ivermectin). In the southern US and Mexico you would be looking at testing in the middle of the winter (same time after spring deworming as listed above). Then based upon the number of eggs per gram of feces you can determine if you need more than the spring/fall dewormings and if so if you need 1 or 2 more dosings.
> 
> In the northern US and Canada, deworming should be discontinued during the winter months because the environmental conditions are not conducive to reinfection---that time of year has been proven to have extremely low reinfection rates. In the southern US and Mexico the opposit is true....deworming can be discontinued during the heat of summer because temps over 85 degrees lead to the infective strongyle larva dying quickly in the environment so the reinfection rates are lowest then.
> 
> For more detailed information check out the deworming webinar that was aired via The Horse magazine's website in April. Be prepared to sit for a while because it is an hour long presentation, but it's well worth the time. The veterinarian gives you all the information on strongyles and deworming in adult horses that you've always wanted to know and then some. It is a wonderful lecture. (And have plenty of paper and a pen.) http://www.thehorse.com/Video.aspx?vID=1…
> (Craig R. Reinemeyer, DVM PhD --parasitologist)


 got the list from that same video link you recommended some time back. Have they gone out of style already?


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## equiniphile

*ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS* alternate wormers! it is so important


I always alternate between Zimecterin Gold and Strongid; i find they work really well


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## kelliannejoseph

thank you all for your input!


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## My Beau

And make sure you don't under-dose!!! That is the biggest cause of worm resistance IMO. If you don't kill them all, the survivors will not be killed the next time. I always give my horses a tube and a half of dewormer (based on weight) to account for any wrong weight tape estimates and any dewormer that gets spit out...


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## Ryle

Vidaloco said:


> I used to not rotate but I found this on a vet recommended site and put it on my fridge. Its what I use. The parenthesis is the brand name.
> 
> January- Moxidectin (Quest)
> 
> April- Pyrantel (Strongid)
> 
> July- Ivermectin + Praziquantel (Equimax)
> 
> October- Fenbendazole (Safe-guard or Panacur)
> 
> .......Has it gone out of style so quickly?


Not out of style, but vets are finally picking up on the new information and the experts in the field have the ability to get their information out to a much wider audience. Vets tend to go to continuing education lectures or read continuing education articles on things that they think are interested. Unfortunately deworming is about as far from interesting as possible for most large animal/equine vets and in the past most of them haven't hired trained/educated veterinary technicians who could perform the diagnostic tests that are necessary to really design appropriate deworming programs. So they tended to stick to the old standby and just throw new drugs in without looking at much more than what they killed. And for years they have not heard or ignored the fact that resistance was building quickly to fenbendazole and pyrantel. They have just kept on with the status quo because it was easy for them and the owners. But the situation has changed because owners are now willing to look at doing what's appropriate rather than easy and the vets are starting to have more and more trained/educated techs who can do the diagnostic testing and someone has set out a rather simple plan for them to follow. 

There was an international meeting held early this year I believe it was where the experts in this field discussed the years of evidence of resistance issues and the dire need for change. Continuing with the way peopel are deworming is going to lead to having no effective drugs rather quickly---resistance to ivermectin is already being seen in ascarids and on at least one farm in KY in strongyles. Those vets came back to America and had a "spur of the moment" deworming continuing education event for vets and vet techs here in the state to get the word out about the situation. Then one of the experts did the webinar on TheHorse.com about a month afterwards. They put the information out there and actually gave details on setting up an appropriate deworming program. Until this point, the magazines, vets and horse owners were just going along with the same old plan but maybe with a little change like spreading out dewormings a bit more--but still using the same old drugs and not taking environmental conditions or individual resistance to parasites into account.

Vidaloco, for your area that list is ridiculous. Your weather is bitterly cold in the winter and moderate in the summer so you should be focusing on deworming in the summer months and not during the winter. With that list you are using the highly effective dewormers during the winter and then using products that are likely doing little to nothing in the summer. 
You should deworm in the spring with a moxidectin/praziquantel or ivermectin/praziquantel and again in the fall afte it starts getting below 45 degrees regularly. Other than that, there is no reason to deworm in the winter months. This next summer you should have a fecal egg count run several months after your spring deworming and see what kind of parasite load your horse's normally carry. It may be that they don't need anything more than those two dewormings or you may need to add 1-2 dewormings during the summer months. If you use moxidectin for your spring deworming you would run your sample 4 months later and if you used ivermectin you would run it 3 months later. And for most deworming programs Fenbendazole should really simply be dropped because it's highly likely that it's not doing anything but giving you a false sense of security.


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## My Beau

Ryle said:


> Vidaloco, for your area that list is ridiculous. Your weather is bitterly cold in the winter and moderate in the summer so you should be focusing on deworming in the summer months and not during the winter. With that list you are using the highly effective dewormers during the winter and then using products that are likely doing little to nothing in the summer.
> You should deworm in the spring with a moxidectin/praziquantel or ivermectin/praziquantel and again in the fall afte it starts getting below 45 degrees regularly. Other than that, there is no reason to deworm in the winter months. This next summer you should have a fecal egg count run several months after your spring deworming and see what kind of parasite load your horse's normally carry. It may be that they don't need anything more than those two dewormings or you may need to add 1-2 dewormings during the summer months. If you use moxidectin for your spring deworming you would run your sample 4 months later and if you used ivermectin you would run it 3 months later. And for most deworming programs Fenbendazole should really simply be dropped because it's highly likely that it's not doing anything but giving you a false sense of security.


Worms can still be present in horses in the winter. And you want to do a deworming in December to catch most larvae before they encyst and migrate. 

I don't know what Vidaloco's set-up is but if she has horses turned out together and doesn't pick her fields I would continue to deworm all winter long. To my knowledge the average winter temperature in Kansas isn't _that_ far below freezing - definitely not the type of environment that wipes everything out for months at a time.

And why are you doing fecals 3-4 months after deworming? Running a fecal egg count 14 days after the deworming will tell you if it worked.


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## Jessabel

I rotate between Anthelcide, Strongid, Equimax, and sometimes I give them Ivermax/Ivermectin. It works very well for my horses, but like other people have said, there are a million opinions on worming options.


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## Ryle

My Beau said:


> Worms can still be present in horses in the winter. And you want to do a deworming in December to catch most larvae before they encyst and migrate.


If you deworm with an ivermectin or moxidectin product at the end of fall when the weather gets to be cold you are going to have killed the parasites that were picked up with the weather was conducive to them maturing into infective larva. By the time it turns cold, the weather is inhibiting the parasite larva from maturing into the infective stage so your horse's risk of infection is extremely low. Now in spring those same larva will begin maturing into the infective stage because they will still be on the pasture, but during the winter months they aren't going to be a risk to your horse.



My Beau said:


> I don't know what Vidaloco's set-up is but if she has horses turned out together and doesn't pick her fields I would continue to deworm all winter long. To my knowledge the average winter temperature in Kansas isn't _that_ far below freezing - definitely not the type of environment that wipes everything out for months at a time.


It only takes temps below 45 degrees to prevent parasite larva from maturing to a stage that can infect your horses. Cold weather never completely wipes the parasites out of the pasture---there is simply no such thing as a killing frost as far as parasites are concerned. But the cold does prevent them from infecting horses. 



My Beau said:


> And why are you doing fecals 3-4 months after deworming? Running a fecal egg count 14 days after the deworming will tell you if it worked.


Yes, you do a fecal egg count 10-14 days after deworming to determine if the last chemical was effective. (But you must have done a fecal egg count prior to deworming to really know anything from running one shortly after deworming.) But what I am recommending (and the equine parasitologists) is to run a fecal egg count well after the egg reappearance period has passed for the last deworming drug was used and during the middle of the season where reinfection rates are highest in your area to determine the kind of parasite load your horses normally carry. This is because many many hroses normally control parasite levels on their own with minimal chemical intervention due to their own developed resistance. 

I know you think I am just "some tech" and probably don't know what I'm talking about, but I just wrote a veterinarian reviewed and approved continuing education article on revamping deworming protocols for horses.  I do know what I'm talking about.


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## Ryle

Jessabel said:


> I rotate between Anthelcide, Strongid, Equimax, and sometimes I give them Ivermax/Ivermectin. It works very well for my horses, but like other people have said, there are a million opinions on worming options.


How do you *know *it's working? 

I'm just trying to get everyone to think about what you are doing and why. Most people are deworming way more than they need to and using products that they don't understand.


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## My Beau

Ryle said:


> I know you think I am just "some tech" and probably don't know what I'm talking about, but I just wrote a veterinarian reviewed and approved continuing education article on revamping deworming protocols for horses.  I do know what I'm talking about.


No, I believe you! Questioning things is just the way I learn more. I've seen many of your posts and have learned a ton, like I didn't know weather below 45 degrees prevented larvae from maturing into the infective stage. But, there are a few times I've disagreed with some of your posts:wink:

I would be VERY interested in reading the article you wrote, though! Anything that helps my horses be healthier


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## shesinthebarn

So where do the daily dewormers fall in then? Are they going to be deemed ineffective? 
Ryle - so would you suggest getting a horse on this new program? Would you take a fecal and start from there? From what I gather you are suggesting to worm less as the horse may need fewer treatments, but how do you know if yours is one of the strongyle resistant animals? Or is it possible that they DO need to be treated more often? What conditions make it necessary to worm more or less often? 
I just don't know where I would start here...We worm the entire farm at the same time with the same product for several reasons, one being that it's just way easier to remember and keep organized, but I don't want to treat animals that don't need to be treated.
I'm very curious as I've been treating parasites the same way for years with no problems. We take fecal counts every year on the permanent horses (brood mares, babies and stallions) and they always fall in the healthy range. If I need to modernize our program, I certainly will!
I'd love to read your article!


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## Vidaloco

Ryle said:


> Vidaloco, for your area that list is ridiculous. Your weather is bitterly cold in the winter and moderate in the summer so you should be focusing on deworming in the summer months and not during the winter. With that list you are using the highly effective dewormers during the winter and then using products that are likely doing little to nothing in the summer.
> You should deworm in the spring with a moxidectin/praziquantel or ivermectin/praziquantel and again in the fall afte it starts getting below 45 degrees regularly. Other than that, there is no reason to deworm in the winter months. This next summer you should have a fecal egg count run several months after your spring deworming and see what kind of parasite load your horse's normally carry. It may be that they don't need anything more than those two dewormings or you may need to add 1-2 dewormings during the summer months. If you use moxidectin for your spring deworming you would run your sample 4 months later and if you used ivermectin you would run it 3 months later. And for most deworming programs Fenbendazole should really simply be dropped because it's highly likely that it's not doing anything but giving you a false sense of security.


My horses are kept in a large pasture in the summer months and in a small dry lot in the winter. My reasoning for worming more in the winter is because of the smaller closer living quarters. Maybe I'm just being paranoid. I do have a fecal count done each spring. So far they have been clear.


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## deineria

I pretty much follow a version of the guide below, but we are seeing a new vet and will see when he comes out Wednesday if he recommends a change:

Jan - Oxibendazole or Fenbendazole

April- Invermectin

Jun- Pyrantel Pamoate

Aug - Oxi or Fen

October- Ivermectin x praziquantal (you can do Mexidectin, but I read somethings about it that made me leary to use it at all) or you can do Tapecare Plus


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## Ryle

Vidaloco said:


> My horses are kept in a large pasture in the summer months and in a small dry lot in the winter. My reasoning for worming more in the winter is because of the smaller closer living quarters. Maybe I'm just being paranoid. I do have a fecal count done each spring. So far they have been clear.


The closer quarters doesn't really change the risk of reinfection because you are still living in temps where you aren't going to have many infective larval stages in the paddock. 

We are better off being paranoid about over-using the products because it won't take long before there is lots more resistance to ivermectin and then moxidectin after that and we don't have any new deworming products set to come onto the market anytime soon.


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## Ryle

shesinthebarn said:


> So where do the daily dewormers fall in then? Are they going to be deemed ineffective?


Daily dewormers are just over-use of one of the commonly used dewormers. For most adult horses you simply don't NEED to deworm that often, so deworming daily is just a waste of money and likely to speed the resistance to the pyrantels in your area if it hasn't already happened. 




shesinthebarn said:


> Ryle - so would you suggest getting a horse on this new program? Would you take a fecal and start from there? From what I gather you are suggesting to worm less as the horse may need fewer treatments, but how do you know if yours is one of the strongyle resistant animals? Or is it possible that they DO need to be treated more often? What conditions make it necessary to worm more or less often?
> I just don't know where I would start here...We worm the entire farm at the same time with the same product for several reasons, one being that it's just way easier to remember and keep organized, but I don't want to treat animals that don't need to be treated.
> [\quote]
> 
> You are heading into your cold season so you would really need to wait until summer to run *fecal egg counts (note this is a different test from the common fecal floatation that is run by most vets) . *It's only recently that many vets have started performing this type of test so be sure that is exactly what you are geting.
> 
> You should deworm with an ivermectin/praziquantel or moxidectin/praziquantel after the weather gets cold, then again in the early spring when it starts warming up. After your spring deworming you would wait 3 months if you used ivermectin last or 4 months if you used moxidectin last and then have a sample tested.
> 
> For the details for the whole program, check out the webinar I posted the link to. This is better than reading my article for you guys because there are visual aids which I don't have in my article.


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## deineria

I am pretty much big on the theory that animals and people over do it with vaccinations and meds - and wormers in animals - in general. . . so I am all for worming less.


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## deineria

Had the vet out today and he said for our area to just do Quest Spring and Quest Plus in the fall with a yearly fecal. Simple enough! lol.


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## shesinthebarn

Talked to my vet about it today. I brought in some poo for them to check on my new horses. I'm pretty sure they have not been wormed regularly, so I'm having a FEC done, as well as the test to determine which buggy-boos thay have. His opinion was to do 2 fecals a year, and worm according to the results. Sounds simple!


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## deineria

Okay, I just realized I did not put the whole recommended worming on my above post:

He said to do Quest Plus for tapeworms - Fall
Strongid or Exodus - Winter
Quest - Spring
Strongid or Exodus - July


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## btru2yrslf

thank you for sharing the above...very helpful.


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