# concerned... please help



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

I would say that mare definitely is a frame carrier. The large blaze that goes off over the eye which appears to be blue. You can tell your cousin she would be breeding frame to frame again! You can also tell that tobiano patterns don't add face white only overo patterns do frame splash and sabino. You can tell your cousin her mare is tobiano with frame! Not only that but frame doesn't always show up on the horse's coat frame can be carried on a solid horse. And why is she breeding a stud that should be gelded thats bad enough. A mutt stud that hasn't done anything to prove itself and has no registration to pass to its progeny. Your cousin needs a lot of education in horses and breeding. She is contributing the continuance of driving the horse market down with poor breeding choices. I hope you show the forum responses to your cousin. Here's some reading materials. I mean theres not only frame being passed on but who knows what diseases that could possibly be inherited. Please tell her she has a 25% chance of having another lethal white foal I hope she makes the right decision. Also a good mannered stud is NOT a reason to breed! A responsible breeding program is to make and improvement on the breed.

Mountain Music: On the wings of an Angel

Lethal white syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Tobianos *can* carry the frame gene. Frame can be in any horse in conjunction with any pattern. The way the white is on her face makes me think she does carry frame as well. Tell your cousin it is a $25 test.  You pull some mane hair and send it in...


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

I have to agree with Peppy Barrel Racing on this one... Also, she has a pretty head, and a good nicely set neck, but conformation wise I don't see anything worth passing on...


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

Thanks. She wants to breed him for his temperament. He is an amazing stud temperament wise, perfect ground manners, and you can put anyone on his back. Can't say much else though because I know nothing about conformation. The accident was out of a solid bay mare as well. And yes the current mare has one blue eye. My cousin is convinced she cant be a carrier cause she is tobiano and thats what the last owner of her mare told her. Sadly the lady who traded her horses knew she was going to breed her to a frame positive stud. I will definately be showing my cousin this thread. She said she only wants to breed once and keep the foal for herself, no serious breeding but still... My cousin is very sweet and caring, she just doesnt realize how serious this is. I understand wanting your heart horses baby but I just wish she would go about it a different way... *sigh*
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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Also have her read this thread - http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeding/my-horse-has-intact-reproductive-organs-148212/


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Also with unknown history both the mare and him should really be tested for all genetic diseases (HYPP, HERDA, etc) before even thinking about breeding...


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Could we maybe see a pic of the stud? I don't know much about LW, but I'm thinking it may be possible he's the carrier.


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

The mare was a on a whim. She got her sight unseen with no PPE. Sometimes my cousin confuses me with her choices... I love her to death but the horse thing is starting to bother me. I don't want to see her heartbroken or with a useless foal... its frustrating to explain to her when I don't know enough to properly educate her. Thanks everyone 
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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Nokota both sire and dam HAVE to carry the OLWS gene in order to have an OLWS afflicted foal. Only in homozygous form will you get an lethal foal, which means the gene has to come from both the sire and the dam...


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

I'm looking for pics of him now... my understanding was both parents had to carry the gene to have a lethal white foal. Is this true or does it just take one parent to pass it on?
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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

It takes getting the gene from both. OLWS lethal foals are homozygous for the frame/OLWS gene.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

So many nice babies out there that need a home I just bought me a grade dunskin colt that came from an auction. He is a nice colt solid built and is a possible barrel racing prospect for only $300. But there a lot of quality registered colts going for that price nowadays. If she wants a baby to raise buy one its so much easier than breeding and you know exactly what your getting plus is waaaay quicker ! I mean she could breed that mare the foal get stuck and they both die. There's so much risk and breeding and it's NOT cheaper to breed the mare needs vaccinations, a food regiment and pregnancy care.


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

Since it takes both parents then yes he is a carrier as he and another mare threw a LW foal. I'll still post pics of him though.
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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> So many nice babies out there that need a home I just bought me a grade dunskin colt that came from an auction. He is a nice colt solid built and is a possible barrel racing prospect for only $300. But there a lot of quality registered colts going for that price nowadays. If she wants a baby to raise buy one its so much easier than breeding and you know exactly what your getting plus is waaaay quicker ! I mean she could breed that mare the foal get stuck and they both die. There's so much risk and breeding and it's NOT cheaper to breed the mare need vaccinations, and food regiment and pregnancy care.


I have used this argument over and over to no avail. So I'm hoping I can get her to realize how serious the issue is. If she wants to breed then fine but do it right.
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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Get her a copy of "Blessed are the Brood Mares" and tell her to read it...


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Nokota both sire and dam HAVE to carry the OLWS gene in order to have an OLWS afflicted foal. Only in homozygous form will you get an lethal foal, which means the gene has to come from both the sire and the dam...


Ohh okay, I didn't know sorry


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I would also bet on the mare having frame. If your cousin cannot be bothered to spend $25 on a test, then it is unfortunate that a live foal is not worth that much to her. And if she goes ahead and breeds them and ends up with a lethal white foal, it would be upsetting, but I hope she takes it as a learning opportunity.


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

I know I didn't realize how cheap the test was and I'm assuming she didn't either. I thought it would be super expensive. Does she just send it to her vet or somewhere else?
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Eta: still trying to upload pics of the stud


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

You send it to the company the genetic testing facility you choose will have instructions on how to collect hairs and where to send it.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Horse Testing - Equine Genetic Testing <<< Information is on there. Basically you pull hair, fill out the form and send in the hair, form and fee and they do the testing.


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## CCH (Jan 23, 2011)

OP if the mare is APHA registered and you have her name, I can look her up in APHA plus for you. This would be a fast indicator if the mares pedigree contains frame overos, and would give you some evidence that she is a likely carrier. It won't rule out frame completely if the pedigree only shows tobianos.
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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I would put it to her this way: A $25 test, to negate the 25% chance of a dead foal. Funny how those numbers seem made to be together.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

countrylove said:


> Since it takes both parents then yes he is a carrier as he and another mare threw a LW foal. I'll still post pics of him though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
I'm sorry knowing this happened once and doing again...just burns me up like I want to smack someone...hard... the saying you cant fix stupid applies here for sure.


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I'm sorry knowing this happened once and doing again...just burns me up like I want to smack someone...hard... the saying you cant fix stupid applies here for sure.


I know what you mean exactly *sigh* I'm trying to change this situation... my cousin isn't stupid just very naive and believes what the last owner told her... very frustrating for me because I do care about my cousin and I know she would be devastated if this happened again. Now that I have some proof to show her, she should change her mind or at least have the test done. She would never intentionally breed 2 LW+ horses, but she lacks the knowledge and that's why I'm trying to educate her. I know once she sees how serious it is that she will change her mind. Its just convincing her. Thanks everyone!
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Eta: the first foal was a complete accident btw and the paddock has been secured since then. Surprisingly he didn't escape, the mare broke in.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Geld that stud and buy a cute baby miss cousin!!!!!!! 
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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

CCH said:


> OP if the mare is APHA registered and you have her name, I can look her up in APHA plus for you. This would be a fast indicator if the mares pedigree contains frame overos, and would give you some evidence that she is a likely carrier. It won't rule out frame completely if the pedigree only shows tobianos.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I just asked and she is double registered. I'm trying to get the name but as soon as I mentioned the overo face markings and LW she changed the subject to saddles...
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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Geld that stud and buy a cute baby miss cousin!!!!!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I completely agree...
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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Here we go - share these with her. These horses have all been confirmed to have frame (lethal white overo) by genetic testing.


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

I have AWESOME news!! She is gelding the stud because he is starting to get studdish and hard to handle. AND she is not going to breed her mare at all!!! Thanks guys! We did it!!
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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> I would say that mare definitely is a frame carrier. The large blaze that goes off over the eye which appears to be blue. You can tell your cousin she would be breeding frame to frame again! You can also tell that tobiano patterns don't add face white only overo patterns do frame splash and sabino. You can tell your cousin her mare is tobiano with frame! Not only that but frame doesn't always show up on the horse's coat frame can be carried on a solid horse. And why is she breeding a stud that should be gelded thats bad enough. A mutt stud that hasn't done anything to prove itself and has no registration to pass to its progeny. Your cousin needs a lot of education in horses and breeding. She is contributing the continuance of driving the horse market down with poor breeding choices. I hope you show the forum responses to your cousin. Here's some reading materials. I mean theres not only frame being passed on but who knows what diseases that could possibly be inherited. Please tell her she has a 25% chance of having another lethal white foal I hope she makes the right decision. Also a good mannered stud is NOT a reason to breed! A responsible breeding program is to make and improvement on the breed.
> 
> Mountain Music: On the wings of an Angel
> 
> Lethal white syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Can you explain the whole white face thing, and what are the frame indicators. She showed me a pic of a homozygous tobiano with a full white face. What does that indicate? I feel so lost right now lol
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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

She doesn't believe me about her horse having frame and I have no idea how to explain it to her since I don't understand it myself...
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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Ok genetics lesson time let me get on my computer  I'm sure Chiilaa can help with this as well she knows more than me. 
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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Ok genetics lesson time let me get on my computer
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yay I need a lesson LoL thanks for taking this time to educate me!!
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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Here's a link to a thread I started after I bought my mare, Honey Boo Boo. She is a Frame Overo and as I found out, so is the stallion she was bred to. 


http://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/looking-info-stallion-141036/


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

So I'm going to tell you everything that I've studied myself and also learned from the awesome people on horse forum such as Chiilaa, Posiedon, and NdAppy among others. I have a biology degree so I have a pretty decent foundation in genetics so I LOVE learning about this stuff and I get taught more and more all the time! 
Ok so your have to understand there are multitude of genes present in horses or people or any living thing both homozygous, heterozygous, dominant, and recessive. That tobiano horse that is homozygous for that color means that its offspring will without a doubt get one copy of that gene. But you have to look at what other color genes are present a bald apron face I'm assuming this horse has is frame. The APHA would classify this as Torvero which is a confusing term that shouldn't be used. Torvero means tobiano and some other Overo pattern. Like I said earlier tobiano doesn't make any face white markings which means that it has to have the overo white markings which are Frame, Sabino, and Splash. Frame and Splash are also the only two genes that make blue eyes except for in double diluted horses but that doesn't apply here. Now I'm assuming your guys know what homozygous and heterozygous mean. So a horse that is a frame carrier is heterozygous and when its bred to another frame carrier you get these possible progeny possibilities. 25% no frame inherited, 50% frame inherited (heterozygous), 25% LETHAL (homozygous). You can get these results with a punnett square but I won't go into that. 
So punnett squares when trying to map out possible inherited genes can get pretty complicated when you start adding in multiple dominant and recessive genes. I'm gonna over simplify this a lot but its gets my point across. But basically you have to think about of those progeny that inherited the frame. Lets say the foal inherits frame from one parent and a solid body non white gene from the other. If the solid color is recessive and frame is dominant the frame will show up on the coat and mask the solid color gene. But it can be the other way around if the solid color is dominant over frame then the frame doesn't show on the coat. But regardless in either case where it shows or not the horse still carries frame. 

So to save myself some time I'm just going to copy the frame definition from wikipedia which basically says what I said and thensome and here it is.
The frame overo pattern is the most common of the three types of overo patterns recognized in the American Paint Horse breed.[1] A frame overo horse appears to be any solid base color (bay, black, chestnut, etc.) with white irregular patches added, usually with a horizontal orientation. Markings are often of jagged shape rather than rounded, the white rarely crosses the back, the lower legs tend to be dark, and the tail is one color, usually dark. The head is often white or bald-faced, and blue eyes are not uncommon. The frame overo pattern usually behaves like a dominant gene, in that when frame overo horses are crossed on nonspotted horses, about half of the foals come out spotted.[2] There are records of frame overos being produced by two nonspotted parents. There is a theory, however, that these "solid" horses simply may be horses with very minimal expression of overo genetics.[2]
Frame coloring is controversial because it is associated with lethal white syndrome (OLWS or LWS),[4] the equine version of Hirschprung disease.[5] LWS occurs when a foal is homozygous for the Ile118Lys EDNRB mutation, which is considered by many researchers to be "usually responsible" for the frame overo phenotype.[6] However, other researchers emphasize that overo spotting patterns are phenotypically and genetically heterogeneous, that is, may have multiple sources.[7]
*The frame overo gene can be masked by other white patterns, particularly tobiano, which is a dominant gene and epistatic to overo.*[5] Epistatic means that when both genes are present, this is the one expressed.
In addition, some carriers of the LWS allele appear to be solid. One theory holds that such horses carry the frame gene, but so minimal in expression that they appear solid.[2] Either way, all LWS foals have horses with frame overo patterning in their pedigrees, and horses carrying a frame allele may not necessarily have a visible expression of the frame overo color.[4]

The reason I said that mare is most like frame is the irregular shaped blaze that mare has and how the white reaches towards the eye especially on the side with the blue eye. It's very reminiscent of my friends mare who just had an OWLS foal because like your cousin she was horribly misinformed about frame. My friend AQHA mare has no white except for a small white spot on her side and her irregular shaped blaze. Frame is not restricted to paints its in several breeds. 
Here is my friends mare.


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> So I'm going to tell you everything that I've studied myself and also learned from the awesome people on horse forum such as Chiilaa, Posiedon, and NdAppy among others. I have a biology degree so I have a pretty decent foundation in genetics so I LOVE learning about this stuff and I get taught more and more all the time!
> Ok so your have to understand there are multitude of genes present in horses or people or any living thing both homozygous, heterozygous, dominant, and recessive. That tobiano horse that is homozygous for that color means that its offspring will without a doubt get one copy of that gene. But you have to look at what other color genes are present a bald apron face I'm assuming this horse has is frame. The APHA would classify this as Torvero which is a confusing term that shouldn't be used. Torvero means tobiano and some other Overo pattern. Like I said earlier tobiano doesn't make any face white markings which means that it has to have the overo white markings which are Frame, Sabino, and Splash. Frame and Splash are also the only two genes that make blue eyes except for in double diluted horses but that doesn't apply here. Now I'm assuming your guys know what homozygous and heterozygous mean. So a horse that is a frame carrier is heterozygous and when its bred to another frame carrier you get these possible progeny possibilities. 25% no frame inherited, 50% frame inherited (heterozygous), 25% LETHAL (homozygous). You can get these results with a punnett square but I won't go into that.
> So punnett squares when trying to map out possible inherited genes can get pretty complicated when you start adding in multiple dominant and recessive genes. I'm gonna over simplify this a lot but its gets my point across. But basically you have to think about of those progeny that inherited the frame. Lets say the foal inherits frame from one parent and a solid body non white gene from the other. If the solid color is recessive and frame is dominant the frame will show up on the coat and mask the solid color gene. But it can be the other way around if the solid color is dominant over frame then the frame doesn't show on the coat. But regardless in either case where it shows or not the horse still carries frame.
> 
> ...


I have experience in genetics with cattle. I am a double major animal science/education with an emphasis on beef production. I've used the punnett square and am familiar with the terms as well. This helped a bunch! Thanks! I'm going to send it to my cousin. You have been amazing at helping me and I appreciate the time you've taken to educate me. I love learning about things like this too and often lurk in the background of topics like this just to try to learn more. Thanks again!!
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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

countrylove said:


> I have experience in genetics with cattle. I am a double major animal science/education with an emphasis on beef production. I've used the punnett square and am familiar with the terms as well. This helped a bunch! Thanks! I'm going to send it to my cousin. You have been amazing at helping me and I appreciate the time you've taken to educate me. I love learning about things like this too and often lurk in the background of topics like this just to try to learn more. Thanks again!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh good you can really help teach your cousin then and since you understand punnett squares and genetics that makes what I said even clearer . I'm glad i could help both you and your cousin!


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

It was very helpful! Thank you! Gonna talk to her in the morning about it. So far she is not breeding thank god. She changed her mind on her own because she is getting annoyed with dealing with the studdy behavior now that there is a female in the paddock/stall next to him. She wants to geld him. Im glad she came to the conclusion on her own but Im still going to educate her on all of this because one day she wants to try her hand at breeding. She is taking some equine college courses so hopefully that will help her too.
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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

countrylove said:


> It was very helpful! Thank you! Gonna talk to her in the morning about it. So far she is not breeding thank god. She changed her mind on her own because she is getting annoyed with dealing with the studdy behavior now that there is a female in the paddock/stall next to him. She wants to geld him. Im glad she came to the conclusion on her own but Im still going to educate her on all of this because one day she wants to try her hand at breeding. She is taking some equine college courses so hopefully that will help her too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The first thing she needs to learn, before even thinking about becoming a breeder, is all the genetic lethals of her chosen breed and their devastating consequences when irresponsibly paired. And to open her mind to suggestions from other people, you never know when someone is going to drop a real gem of wisdom on you. Frequently it's not something you need to keep, but if you don't develop the art of listening, you'll never know will you?


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> The first thing she needs to learn, before even thinking about becoming a breeder, is all the genetic lethals of her chosen breed and their devastating consequences when irresponsibly paired. And to open her mind to suggestions from other people, you never know when someone is going to drop a real gem of wisdom on you. Frequently it's not something you need to keep, but if you don't develop the art of listening, you'll never know will you?


I 120% agree.
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## maygen (Jan 8, 2013)

Can we see a picture of the stud. My filly is a tabiano came from a solid dun stud and my tabiano mare her face markings are similar and she has a half blue eye could my filly carry the frame gene. Look at my profile pictures of her


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

maygen said:


> Can we see a picture of the stud. My filly is a tabiano came from a solid dun stud and my tabiano mare her face markings are similar and she has a half blue eye could my filly carry the frame gene. Look at my profile pictures of her


The filly I would say has frame. And it's _tobiano_, not tabiano.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

There was a thread started not too long ago on this topic and I found it very informative. Many people think Paints are the only breeds affected by this, but in fact there are several breeds that have potential to carry frame. . 

Lethal White Foals


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