# Conformation- Positives and negatives.



## Southern Belle (Oct 27, 2011)

What breed is she? Her hocks are very defined and strong, so she would be a good jumper.


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## stefanixx (May 18, 2010)

She is a TB  I always thought she probably had potential as a jumper. When I got her she was so skinny but her back end was still pretty chunky and muscly haha


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

I'll give it a go.

She has a nice head, although the nostrils are more thick walled than I usually see in TBs, which isn't really an issue if she's just a trail hack. Head is slightly large in proportion to the body, but she has a calm, kind appearance.

Throatlatch is a bit thick, and she has an ewe neck that is also quite long. Shoulderblade is short with a long humerus, creating a slightly upright shoulder. She appears to be a bit sway backed, as well as fairly long in the back.

She has a nice big barrel, and looks to me like she may have foaled before. She seem a bit shallow in the girth area, making the belly appear larger in relation, but it doesn't seem huge to me. Since she was a rescue I'd imagine she has a ways to go in building condition and the front end should fill out a bit over time.

The front legs lack condition, she appears to be slightly calf kneed and ties in at the knee as well? It's difficult to judge from the photos provided. I also think I might be seeing a slight bowed tendon in her right leg, but again it could just be the photos.

The hind end is quite muscular in relation to the rest of her body - if she raced previously, that could explain it, I've known many OTTBs who lost condition after coming off the track but never (or hadn't yet) lost the "racing bum". She has a nice long hip, quite sloped by not excessively so. The hind legs seem quite a bit stockier in relation to the front legs as well. Long gaskin with short hocks, and I think I see a bit of a sickle hocked appearance as a result of that, but it doesn't appear to be excessive. The legs appear short in relation to the body but I think this is due to the long back.

I won't comment much on the pasterns/hoof area, as she desperately needs a trim. I'm not sure what you mean by "thoroughbred feet", I'm assuming it's the common belief that thoroughbreds generally have weak hooves, but all I'm seeing is overgrown feet and the resulting flaring and chipping, nothing a competent farrier couldn't handle. All that really stands out to me is that the right hind appears to be clubbed.


She looks like she could be a good overall pleasure horse, possibly even a low level dressage mount once she is better conditioned, although her neck may give her some trouble. I would _not_ breed this horse, with care she can be a good useful little mare but there are enough faults that I would not want to see passed on to a foal, and nothing exceptional enough to warrant breeding her.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

I'll just address your intended use - trails.

She appears to have a relatively high ratio of slow twitch fibers in her muscle composition for a TB, which lends itself to endurance rather than power. Her neck is not very substantial, which farther reduces power, she is light of bone, and of course being a TB, her hooves may or may not be solid, with the likelihood being they are weak in relation to other breeds. 

IMO she would be suitable for flat trail work, likely pretty fair at flat endurance work (for a TB), but not powerful and hardy enough for really rugged mountaineous trails without frequent rests and being extremely careful with her hooves and legs...


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## Horsegears (May 31, 2010)

She is leggy (TB) and has moderate muscle shape. The wither
is slightly forward set and the back is on the longer side.
Girther depth is OK adding some core strength. Now significantly
the hind is strong and the strength of the topline. You may 
also note a good longer femur which provides a good wither 
set and ensures a good deep upper hind. Her body shape is 
likely to be longer. We also have a beautfully shaped, marked and 
attractive head (Love the blaze and width between the eyes),
especially Thoroughbred considered. The neck is leaner which is 
standard for many TB's and may well improve with some educated
riding.

Many bone structure features inlcludng her muscle shape 
(not size) indicate a speedier type which almost
certainly will not ideally be suited to endurance. An example 
is the strong hind (Which you correctly noted when you
recieved her), which against popular opinion is not actually
suited to endurance as its an explosive power formation - rather 
than an efficient formation. Significantly the hind does suit this horses 
type and it strongly indicates a sprinter/speed type (Not stayer 
or endurance). This sprinter type also goes with the foirward set 
wither and a leaner forequarters in comparison. You purchased 
her for trial riding and fun and (perhaps) some dressage and for 
that she should be a fine nice looking type (Good smart 
purchase as quiet TB's can be worth there weight in gold). 

If she had racetrack preformance (won races) she could possess 
sprinting racehorse breeding potential, but as a pleasure proposition 
honestly she is not quite up to it based on her overall conformation. 
Not quite enough athletic traits, and may pass down some lesser 
desired ones. I trust you wanted an honest opinion you could make 
us of.


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## Horsegears (May 31, 2010)

My comments above based on top photo which
is square. If you take more photos feel free to
upload and I can have another look for breeding 
potential , as one or two images are not always 
typcial of the horse.


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## Horsegears (May 31, 2010)

Adjustment to above. You may Also note a good longer femur 
which provides a good stifle Set and ensures a good 
deep upper hind. Thanks


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## stefanixx (May 18, 2010)

Thankyou for all those comments  Im aware her feet are shocking in that last photo  she had been out for to months recooperating and gaining weight. that photo was just after she had been brought in for the first time. She was trialed and came last in all 3 of her trials haha so she is a bit of a slow one  And yes she has the prettiest face ive ever seen on a thoroughbred, she knows it too haha. She isnt in much work at the moment so she isnt looking the best she could. Im starting her rebreaking soon


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## Horsegears (May 31, 2010)

stefanixx said:


> haha so she is a bit of a slow one


Don't worry, all Thoroughbreds can move along if they desire. Although you should be OK, beware in a pack or a large open space as some just off the track can be prone to bolt. You never know which ones will.


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## stefanixx (May 18, 2010)

She was actualy raced in 2004 and then reeducated in 2006 but since then she hasnt done anything so i am treating her as an off the track. She is absolutely gorgeous but i definetly wouldnt trust her not to take off! 
So overall is her conformation good, average or a concern?


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## Horsegears (May 31, 2010)

stefanixx said:


> So overall is her conformation good, average or a concern?


She has a super hind which most horses don't have and thats a big positive - as thats a key trait. Potentially lots of strength from that.

Overall I would rate her 'body type' as an average Thoroughbred, being neither outstanding nor poor. But on top of that she has that wonderful sprinters/QH shaped head with the blaze that many TB fans would die for.


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## Horsegears (May 31, 2010)

stefanixx said:


> So overall is her conformation good, average or a concern?


Anyway, if your really keen get a perfect side on shot from lower down and from a greater distance and post it. She may look even better!


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

stefanixx said:


> Thankyou for all those comments  Im aware her feet are shocking in that last photo  she had been out for to months recooperating and gaining weight. that photo was just after she had been brought in for the first time. She was trialed and came last in all 3 of her trials haha so she is a bit of a slow one  And yes she has the prettiest face ive ever seen on a thoroughbred, she knows it too haha. She isnt in much work at the moment so she isnt looking the best she could. Im starting her rebreaking soon


 
TB hooves are nearly often poor because they are shod at 2 or less when the internal hoof structures have not developed and the shoe prevents development (they should develop until the age of about 7), but with a high fibre diet and no low sugars and the correct balance of vits and minerals they can often improve no end  My tb is barefoot and is has lovely hooves now and I know of man tbs over here that have had the supposed crap tb hooves and have gone on to compete barefoot. Read "Feet First" it is an excellent book on hoof development.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Clava said:


> TB hooves are often poor because they are shod at 2 or less when the internal hoof structures have not developed and the shoe prevents development (they should develop until the age of about 7), but with a high fibre diet and low sugars and the correct balance of vits and minerals they can often improve no end  My tb is barefoot and is has lovely hooves now and I know of many tbs over here that have had the supposed crap tb hooves and have gone on to compete barefoot. Read "Feet First" it is an excellent book on hoof development.


 
Sorry, quite a few typos in my last post, corrected above


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## stefanixx (May 18, 2010)

Yeah she is currently getting rosehip in her feed which ive heard is great for strengthening the hooves. Her feet are fin if done every 6 or so weeks. They splay out when they get long and crack so if i keep them from getting long they are fine  
Thanks horsegears you have been very helpful, Ill get a better pic in the morning and post it. As for the face, I agree that its stunning! She takes up to photo slots in my wallet, thats how gawjuzz she is haha
heres some more pics, I just want to show off now and share her journey 
I saved her from the sales, the meat man tryed to get her and that look she gave me and the way she hddle up to me because she was terrifyed of the loud auction, resulted in an impulse buy. I later found out this was her 3rd close call to death. In 2004 she was raced and was unsuccessful so her breeder/trainer left her in a paddock with 8 other horses for almost 3 years. When rescued 5 of the other horses had to be PTS because of there condition. She was saved and educated by a lovely lady then sold on. She spent 3 years after that dumped in a paddock. She got string halt in 2009 and a neighbour ended up footing the vet bills because the owner wanted nothing to do with it. She was down for weeks and almost got put to sleep. August 2011 she was sent to the sales to become dog food and now she is with me  Tough life she has had. She was horribly underweight and unhealthy when i got her. Now she is fat and happy. 
Photo 1: Ellie a few weeks after i got her (she was starting to fatten up by then )
Photo 2: Just a pretty one of her


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## stefanixx (May 18, 2010)

This photo might be alright to judge her conformation.


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## Horsegears (May 31, 2010)

She appear a little further refined in this image.

I do like the hind, and she has a touch 
extra length to the rear cannon (Thoroughbreds
usually have very short rear cannons) so
I see some good movement and under-reach
from the rear. I agree with your friends suggestion
in regard to dressage. :0

I don't know how good Thoroughbreds
like this can be left without care after racing.
Its great shes found a home. Her condition
has improved 100% (Congrats) I hope shes a 
keeper for you. Good luck


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## stefanixx (May 18, 2010)

Definetly a keeper  Wether she turns out as a good one to ride or not


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Clava said:


> TB hooves are nearly often poor because they are shod at 2 or less when the internal hoof structures have not developed and the shoe prevents development (they should develop until the age of about 7), but with a high fibre diet and no low sugars and the correct balance of vits and minerals they can often improve no end  My tb is barefoot and is has lovely hooves now and I know of man tbs over here that have had the supposed crap tb hooves and have gone on to compete barefoot. Read "Feet First" it is an excellent book on hoof development.


Perhaps in the UK and Australia, but there is far more to the picture here. Poor TB breeding practices have resulted in many TB's with poor hooves. Look to Big Brown as a prime example...3 generations of poor hooves, so let's breed him because he is fast...:evil:


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Faceman said:


> Perhaps in the UK and Australia, but there is far more to the picture here. Poor TB breeding practices have resulted in many TB's with poor hooves. Look to Big Brown as a prime example...3 generations of poor hooves, so let's breed him because he is fast...:evil:


 
I don't know Big Brown, but without knowing his diet and whether it was high in sugars (most probably, as probably his forefathers had too), there is no way of knowing if it is genetic or management. Poor management such as shoeing early and high sugar diets will lead directly to poor hooves, too many people just accept it is genetics without actually testing it which only can be done by removing shoes and providing an ideal environment and seeing if strong hooves grow. I certainly know of tb hooves which have been written off as genetic and then it has been demonstrated not to be with a new regime of management. See examples on this site Rockley Farm


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Clava said:


> I don't know Big Brown, but without knowing his diet and whether it was high in sugars (most probably, as probably his forefathers had too), there is no way of knowing if it is genetic or management. Poor management such as shoeing early and high sugar diets will lead directly to poor hooves, too many people just accept it is genetics without actually testing it which only can be done by removing shoes and providing an ideal environment and seeing if strong hooves grow. I certainly know of tb hooves which have been written off as genetic and then it has been demonstrated not to be with a new regime of management. See examples on this site Rockley Farm


As I said, he has 3 generations of bad feet behind him and he himself has bad feet. With or without the introduction of environmental factors, horses that are genetically unsound should not be bred

To be redundant, I can't speak for breeders in other countries, but in the US many TB breeders breed only for speed with no regard to soundness. It is certainly no secret that this method of breeding has resulted in feet, bone, and joints insufficient for the weight of the horse. 

That does not mean that all breeders follow that philosophy, nor does it mean that all racing bred TB's are unsound. It does, however, mean that the incidence of poor legs and feet in racing bred TB's here is higher than in a population of horses bred for soundness...which is exactly what one would expect from breeders that disregard soundness issues and breed strictly for speed, nurse the horse through a couple of years racing, praying it won't fall apart, and retire it to stud...


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Faceman said:


> As I said, he has 3 generations of bad feet behind him and he himself has bad feet. With or without the introduction of environmental factors, horses that are genetically unsound should not be bred
> 
> ...


Where is the proof that this is genetics? Just because three generations before him where possibly poorly managed (as most racehorses are in terms of hoof health with reagrds to shoeing and diet) it does not mean that it is genetic. My great grandmother, grandmother and mother could all have been fat, but it does not mean that they had a genetic problem, it could mean they just ate too much. Hooves and hoof health is often not considered when a quick solution is to whack a set of shoes on.


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## Horsegears (May 31, 2010)

Faceman said:


> in the US many TB breeders breed only for speed with no regard to soundness. .


A horse that is proven fast while consistently sound has effectively proven itself sound for the purpose.

A sound horse that runs slow is untested for soundness at faster speeds. Breeding slow horses that remain galloping sound is of no challenge, and effectively pointless for the purpose.

The Thoroughbred is further refined (And significantly lighter), but generally only in comparison to western types that don't have the muscle type or body type to run distances of significance in relation to TB racing. Quarter Horse or western types generally also possess a muscle type that suffers further micro-tears and therefore muscle tightness/soreness, which in turn can place additional pressure on the joints/tendons etc, if they are worked over longer distances at the sustained racing speed on a regular basis. 

All considered the Thoroughbred is sound for its purpose, and actually sounder than the bulkier type of western horse for the purpose of galloping over TB racing distances.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Horsegears said:


> A horse that is proven fast while consistently sound has effectively proven itself sound for the purpose.
> 
> A sound horse that runs slow is untested for soundness at faster speeds. Breeding slow horses that remain galloping sound is of no challenge, and effectively pointless for the purpose.
> 
> ...


That is perhaps one of the most naive and uninformed observations I have encountered. 

To repeat, perhaps that is the case with Australian bred Thoroughbreds, I am not one that pretends to judge horses I know nothing about, but it is certainly not the case with many of those bred here. 

For Heaven sakes, even the Jockey Club has addressed the issue of the durability of Thoroughbreds and the injury issues in the last few years. One of the issues and recommendations of the Jockey Club's 2006 "Welfare And Safety Of The Racehorse" summit is as follows...



> RECOMMENDATION No. 4: BREEDING
> Primary Objective: Encourage Breeding of Horses with Longer Racing Careers
> Related Objectives:​
> 
> ...




Perhaps in Australia the racing industry still hides its faults - again, I don't know. But over here the decline of the industry due to its poor breeding practices has finally forced the Jockey Club to publicly recognize them and attempt some resolutions. Safer training methods, safer racing, and a review of pharmacology practices have been addressed also and in some cases changes have been made, but breeding has also been addressed as durability and hardiness of Thoroughbreds have continued to deteriorate with each passing generation.​ 
This is no secret - either to me, to the public, or the Jockey Club. I can only assume, as you are associated with the industry, that you are aware of all these issues - to not be aware of them would be a sign of incompetence, and I am am also assuming that you are competent. While 15 years ago the TB industry over here persisted in denying these issues, we have at least progressed to the point where the industry now admits its problems and is taking steps to address them, albeit under public pressure to do so.​ 
Breeding stallions and mares that have genetic issues that lessen durability is most certainly an issue in the TB industry - obvioius by simple observation, and by admission of the industry itself. If you choose to hide those issues, than so be it...far be it from me to dictate to you. However, it does convey the appearance that you are out of step with your industry - at least as the industry exists over here...​​


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

I am not saying they don't have genetic issues or problems, of course they do, what I said was where is your proof that their poor hooves is one of them? when there are so many factors that you cannot rule out or have not been ruled out (as few are run barefoot and given ideal conditions to grow a strong hoof in order to test the issue).


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Of course there are environmental factors. Some of those factors are exactly what the Jockey Club is addressing to attempt to make TB racing safer for the horses. However, when a horse has bad feet, the immediate 2 or 3 generations of its ancestors have bad feet, and its progeny have bad feet, to dismiss genetics is to not see the forest for the trees...or, as in the case of the industry itself until very recently, to try and hide the sordid truth, which is breeding horses without the underlying conformation to support both their weight and the job that they do - then, through pharmaceuticals, diet, comditioning, and intense farrier care, try to nurse them through a brief 2 or 3 year racing life.

More directed at Horsegears, a horse that is carfully nursed through a 2 or 3 year career hardly qualifies as "consistently sound". Consistently sound would be defined, or at least should be defined, in terms of lifetime soundness.

Once again, all racing TB breeders are not irresponsible in the sense of placing money above responsible breeding, just as not all racing TB trainers place their horses at unreasonable risk - and I am not intimating otherwise. However there are many breeders and trainers that fall into that category, just as there are breeders that irresponsibly breed behemoth grotesque halter horses that can barely waddle into an arena

I am not an anti racing wacko...I have been a TB racing fan for over 50 years. However, I have been around long enough to see the industry deteriorate over the years and breeding practices become more and more irresponsible. I used Big Brown as an example because he and his geneticly poor feet have been highly publicized and most people, at least in the US, are familiar with him. Big Brown to me is the stereotype of poor breeding practices...it was known before he was even born his feet would be bad, and of course they are. Not only should he have not been bred himself in the first place, mare owners are waiting in line to breed him...


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## Horsegears (May 31, 2010)

Faceman said:


> . Consistently sound would be defined, or at least should be defined, in terms of lifetime soundness.


That's absurd in Thoroughbred racing. No way should a horse be expected to remain 'racing sound' for its entire lifetime. Again that is not the purpose of Thoroughbred racing, and why would it ever be........

[/B]


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Faceman said:


> However, when a horse has bad feet, the immediate 2 or 3 generations of its ancestors have bad feet, and its progeny have bad feet, to dismiss genetics is to not see the forest for the trees...or, as in the case of the industry itself until very recently, to try and hide the sordid truth, which is breeding horses without the underlying conformation to support both their weight and the job that they do - then, through pharmaceuticals, diet, comditioning, and intense farrier care, try to nurse them through a brief 2 or 3 year racing life.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am not dismissing genetics, just saying that the genetics with regards to poor hooves are just one possible reason (and not the most likely one) and cannot be said to be the issue even if over several generations if the management of each generation has been the same. It makes me quite cross that people assume horses (especially tbs) have genetically poor hooves (i.e can't go barefoot because of thin soles, weak horn etc) when actually to prove that the horse would have to be taken barefoot and given ideal conditions and a chance to grow a decent hoof first (which many written off horses have done so). You have offered no proof whatsoever (and I would welcome it) that bad feet are a genetic issue, just because generations have had them does not therefore make it genetic. 

What is the genetic issue with their hooves exactly? Which part of the hoof has the genetic problem?


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Sadly, your opinion, which you have now stated repeatedly, is that it is just fine to breed horses with genetic faults, hope for the best, and try to nurse them through a 3 year career...and then just not worry about what happens to them as long as they make money during those 3 years. If they come up lame or injured, or worse after that, who cares? 

That attitude, which is at the extreme end of the use side of the use vs. abuse debate, is exactly the attitude that has resulted in the decline of the TB racing industry in our country. Evidently you don't see that, which is OK by me as TB racing in Australia and what you do or do not do is of no concern to me. However we all should learn and benefit from history, and it would be prudent if you looked at what has happened to the TB racing industry in this country and learn from our mistakes so you don't repeat them there.

I have been to Australia, but only for a short time for rest and recuperation during the Vietnam war, and certainly was not there long enough to get to know the people and get a feel for their attitudes about horses and other domestic animals. So perhaps there is a cultural difference, which might explain why you see nothing wrong with breeding poorly conformed animals to use to make money and then discarding them. I would prefer to think Australians are no different than we are and you are just a person who, like many here in the TB industry, are out of step with society, out of step with changes in the industry itself, and still persist in the "win regardless of cost" philosophy.

There is more to responsible breeding than breeding a fast horse. Someday you may learn that...or perhaps not...


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Horsegears said:


> That's absurd in Thoroughbred racing. No way should a horse be expected to remain 'racing sound' for its entire lifetime. Again that is not the purpose of Thoroughbred racing, and why would it ever be........


Why would it b? it must make some sort of economic sense to produce stock that spends more of its time doing what it was bred to do and not being on expensive rehab


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## TheMadHatter (Feb 26, 2007)

Once you start riding her, her muscle definition should really fill out and you will see a noticable difference. I'd love to see pics of her 6 months or a year from now after proper conditioning and riding. 

On the subject of breeding: I would not advise it. There are way too many horses our there now and adding another that doesn't come from "the best of the best" is not going to help our horse economy. Just ride her and love her.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Faceman said:


> Sadly, your opinion, which you have now stated repeatedly, is that it is just fine to breed horses with genetic faults...
> 
> 
> ...


That is certainly not what I have stated repeatedly, but I have questioned what actually is genetic and what is assumed genetic (as this line of conversation started with talking about poor hooves).


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## Horsegears (May 31, 2010)

Faceman said:


> Sadly, your opinion, which you have now stated repeatedly, is that it is just fine to breed horses with genetic faults, hope for the best, ..


Totally lacking accuracy which appears consistent with your many other claims. I am not the only one who has picked up on this. You cant expect to be taken seriously arguing in such manner. Enough said.....


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Clava said:


> That is certainly not what I have stated repeatedly, but I have questioned what actually is genetic and what is assumed genetic (as this line of conversation started with talking about poor hooves).


I understand, but that response was not addressed toward you. 

I know a lot of people in the TB racing industry, because I have been a fan for so many years and mildly involved in the industry on the periphery. I think most TB people today recognize the problems the industry has and are sincerely trying to do what they can to resolve them. Unfortunately there are still those around that will stop at nothing in their quest for the next Secretariat.

As to the hoof issue with Big Brown, his problems and those of his bloodlines are well documented. I'm not going to spend my time revisiting those issues just to post links here. If you have an interest in it, research it - there is lots of information out there...no need to just take my word for it. I rarely voice an opinion outside of my expertise or knowledge (you will never see me discuss equitation, showing, or tack, for example), but I don't expect anyone to just take that for granted...nothing wrong with checking the facts to validate a person's opinion - I do it all the time.

However, the issue is really no different than a club foot. There are many causes of a club foot, including environmental causes. But when a horse has a club foot and you find out its parents and grandparents and great grandparents had club feet, the overwhelming odds are it is genetic. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, the overwhelming odds are it is a duck.

It is no secret that Thoroughbreds as a breed have suffered a deterioration in bone, joints, and feet, while at the same time experiencing an increase in muscle mass. To be redundant, even the industry itself has finally admitted it. And again, that does not mean that all Thoroughbreds have bad feet or are not conformed to be sound for life. It does mean however, that as a breed it is accurate to generalize that as a breed they are not as sound as most breeds. It also does not demean the breed itself - there are many TB breeders, not necessarily in the racing industry, that breed sound to sound, which obviously reduces the incidence of an unsound conformation, and there are many many perfectly sound Thoroughbreds.

There seems to be an opinion voiced by some, that a TB that makes it through 2 or 3 years of racing when it is young, strong, and vigorous, pumped full of drugs, and shoed and cared for meticulously, is sound. My definition of sound is a horse that is sound for many, many, years, barring injury. I just can't consider a horse as bred sound that has to hobble around lame from the time he is 4 or 5 and has barely attained adulthood.

I will point out though, that your observation is absolutely valid, and as you have said, no one should automatically assume that a TB with bad feet is that way because of poor breeding. There are lots of environmental factors, both in utero and after birth, that can cause foot issues - poor diet, poor farrier work, and excessive stalling, being just a few examples.

I would also like to point out, just so no one thinks I am picking on Thoroughbreds, that the "win at any cost" attitude responsible for poor breeding is certainly not limited to Thoroughbreds. As I pointed out earlier, people that breed halter horses that can do little more than waddle on their tiny feet are no different...neither are those that breed HYPP N/H or H/H horses because they think they perform better. An irresponsible breeder is an irresponsible breeder no matter what breed or discipline might be involved...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This was written at a dog site, but I think it has a good summary of the problems facing some race horses. A sample:" Weinbach, in retrospect, almost seemed to foretell the tragedy when he wrote that the success of Native Dancer’s progeny had led to their having been bred together so often that the thoroughbred gene pool has critically narrowed. He continued, claiming that Native Dancer’s line has a tragic flaw. According to Weinbach, it is due “in part to heavily muscled legs and a violent, herky-jerky running style, Native Dancer and his descendants have had trouble with their feet. Injuries have cut short the careers of several of his most famous kin, most notably Barbaro, a great-great-great-grandson…”​Lessons To Be Learned by Gay Dunlap

Also this:"Quarter cracks can come from a genetic disposition that causes a thin hoof wall. Like thousands of U.S. thoroughbreds, Big Brown is a descendant of Native Dancer, who had trouble with his feet. Native Dancer lost the 1953 Kentucky Derby by a head, then won the Preakness and Belmont.

Dutrow uses hoof repair ace Ian McKinlay to work on Big Brown’s feet. The colt was rocking a new pair of glued-on shoes Thursday afternoon outside his barn, unfazed by McKinlay’s handiwork."​Big Brown's big problem? His front feet - Preakness Stakes- NBC Sports


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## Horsegears (May 31, 2010)

Faceman said:


> as a breed it is accurate to generalize that as a breed they are not as sound as most breeds. .


The thoroughbred is without doubt the soundest breed for its intended purpose - racing over middle distances at sustained speed.

It also possesses a strong reputation as an athletic Sport Horse/jumper outside of its intended/specialist discipline.

You can get technical with masses of words and refer to specific bloodlines, articles etc, and use it as a general overview, but its lacking accuracy.....again.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A significant chunk of the thoroughbred industry breeds strictly for maximum speed at the age of 3. A horse like Big Brown can have poor feet, but if he runs fast as a 2-3 year old, what happens after that doesn't matter. 

That doesn't mean thoroughbreds are bad horses or a bad breed. They are an outstanding breed, and have a great many outstanding breeders. But the racing industry in America isn't all that concerned with long term soundness. Just speed. At 3. If they don't work out, they can be dumped at the auctions. If they run fast enough, then put Bondo on their dents long enough to run them. Then breed them.

And if you go to buy a thoroughbred, a prudent person would review their papers and check bloodlines, preferably with more in mind that seeing how many names are familiar.


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## Horsegears (May 31, 2010)

bsms said:


> A significant chunk of the thoroughbred industry breeds strictly for maximum speed at the age of 3


To win leading races as a 2yo a racehorse not only needs to be fast, but have a strong constitution and to an extent superior soundness.

Champion 2yo winners have shown a remarkable record at stud as stallions, regardless of their records as older racehorses.

I suggest you refrain from commenting on such issues.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Horsegears said:


> ...I suggest you refrain from commenting on such issues.


If the moderators of this forum want me to stop posting, they will let me know. I don't feel a need to please you with my posts.



Horsegears said:


> To win leading races as a 2yo a racehorse not only needs to be fast, but have a strong constitution and to an extent superior soundness....


No. Racehorses do NOT need superior soundness. Excessive soundness would make them slow. If discussing it from a horse perspective confuses some, let's try tires.

I want my tires to last 50K+ miles. I'm concerned with $$$. A friend of mine who raced motorcycles wanted his tires to last the race. He was concerned with performance, not durability.

As in the case of Big Brown, a racehorse can have poor feet - and he can have $500 shoes glued to them. Big Brown did what was wanted of him - he ran fast at 2 & 3.



Horsegears said:


> ...Champion 2yo winners have shown a remarkable record at stud as stallions, regardless of their records as older racehorses...


That is because it doesn't matter if they break down later. Like the tires on my friend's motorcycle, what matters is lasting the race - or a short string of them over about a 2 year period.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Horsegears said:


> To win leading races as a 2yo a racehorse not only needs to be fast, but have a strong constitution and to an extent superior soundness.
> 
> Champion 2yo winners have shown a remarkable record at stud as stallions, regardless of their records as older racehorses.
> 
> ...


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## Horsegears (May 31, 2010)

bsms said:


> No. Racehorses do NOT need superior soundness. Excessive soundness would make them slow. If discussing it from a horse perspective confuses some, let's try tires.
> 
> .


The comment was that 2yo's do need superior soundness to win races while not yet matured, and it is certainly true.


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## Horsegears (May 31, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I know you have a direct connection to the thoroughbred industry, no doubt more than many who have posted on your thread.
> .


Thank you.



tinyliny said:


> ........, you cannot control who comments on what issues.


We agree, that's why I only suggest.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

amazing how that sounds when you pick and choose what to quote from my post.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Horsegears said:


> The comment was that 2yo's do need superior soundness to win races while not yet matured, and it is certainly true.


Actually, the comment was:



Horsegears said:


> To win leading races as a 2yo a racehorse not only needs to be fast, but have a strong constitution and to an extent superior soundness...


I disagree. Soundness implies they can sustain that use, and can do so without significant compensation. 

What they need is to grow fast enough (usually harmful to long term durability), and then run fast at 2 years of age. If that means they will have painful joints at 4, so what? They won when it counted. If you need to glue the hoof together, so be it - as long as they win.

If you have to glue the hoof together, that isn't exactly what most have in mind when talking 'sound'.


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## stefanixx (May 18, 2010)

I would not put off breeding a sound horses purely because it has poor feet. I would find a stallion that has really good hooves. With propper maintainence a horse prone to bad feet will be fine. The trick to keeping Ellies feet under controll is trimming them every 7 weeks before they start splaying outwards and crack. If I keep on top of it her feet are fine. (rosehip helsp too haha)
Thanks all for the tips on her confo and will keep you updated


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

bsms said:


> No. Racehorses do NOT need superior soundness. Excessive soundness would make them slow.


Exactly.

Given the same muscle mass, a heavy boned and hooved sound horse would not be competitive with the lighter poorly bred horses with scant bone and hooves. It would be like a horse carrying 170 pounds running against a horse carrying 120 pounds.
No. Racehorses do NOT need superior soundness. Excessive soundness would make them slow.

My goodness, I keep saying this stuff is no secret - it is highly publicized and well documented, yet some people seem to either be unaware of it or are trying to sweep it under a rug.

Racing Thoroughbreds are purposely bred to an objective of light bone, and small light hooves, strictly for speed. There is a reason a substantial number of racing bred Thoroughbreds are not durable...they were not bred to be durable. They were bred to be like a match - to burn with great brilliance for a short period of time and then burn out. We went through a period like that in the U.S with our cars in the 70's and 80'. We called it planned obsolescence.

The Jockey Club is faced with a very difficult situation - to a degree much like the AQHA has been faced with concerning HYPP. The registry has admitted that Thoroughbreds have become too light of bone, too weak of hoof, and not very durable. It has also admitted that this is due to breeding. But changes can't be effected overnight. Breeders, owners, and trainers are not about to invest their money in slow(er) sound horses and put them on the track to run against faster unsound horses. The playing field has to be level.

A level playing field is a competitive playing field. If Thoroughbreds were bred for speed within a framework of soundness then yes, their times would be slower, but because they were all similarly bred, the races would be just as competitive and just as exciting...nothing would be lost. In reality, the industry would benefit due to the removal of the reasons a large percentage of the population is anti-racing.

But the transition would be difficult, just as it has been for AQHA in trying to transition away from genetically faulted behemoth halter horses that can barely stand on their tiny feet, much less do anything useful. However the transition cannot be effected if people within the industry - owners, trainers, and breeders, ignore the problems their own registry admits to, and continue their irresponsible ways. The irony of that irresponsible attitude is they are shooting themselves in the foot. Revenues are down, attendance is down, and the public perception of the TB racing industry is very poor, indicating the industry will continue to decline. 

I love Thoroughbred racing, and always have. From conception through race day, it is a complex sport with many variables, which is what makes it so challenging and unpredictable. I really hate to see the industgry decline any farther than it already has due to the stubborness and greed of many of its principals.

This is not intended a personal slight to anyone or any country... it is just a statement of fact. In Australia, about 70% of the 40,000 horses that are slaughtered each year are Thoroughbreds. Another 20% or so are Brumbies - wild feral horses. That means that almost 90% or 9 out of 10 domesticated horses slaughtered are Thoroughbreds. That is not intended as an anti-slaughter statement - I am actually pro-slaughter. It is, however, intended to demonstrate the state of Thoroughbred breeding in Australia, and it does give a bit of insight into what the attitudes of the racing industry there may be.

In comparison, in the U.S., about 15% of the 100,000 horses sent to slaughter annually are Thoroughbreds, and 14% of our horses are Thoroughbreds, so the number slaughtered is closer to proportionate. Of course with that being said, many of our U.S. Thoroughbreds are sold live to Japan and end up slaughtered and eaten, so the percentages would not be quite as close as they seem. That does not mean the U.S. does not have the same issues as Autralia - we still breed tdoo many Thoroughbreds and many of them are unsound - but it does illustrate the differing magnitudes of the problem.

In any case, the bottom line is this - almost twice as many Australian Thoroughbreds are slaughtered as U.S. Thoroughbreds, and the U.S. has 313 million people vs. 23 million in Australia. And I sincerely doubt the reason is that Thoroughbreds are more tasty than other breeds and therefore are raised for meat.

If that isn't food for thought, I don't know what is. Again, this is not a condemnation of anyone or of Australia...please don't take it that way. Different cultures and societies have different attitudes and practices. However it does offer an insight into the Thoroughbred breeding practices there and the attitude, at least within Australia's Thoroughbred industry, which in turn might offer an explanation why an Australian in the TB industry might consider a Thoroughbred that made it through his short racing career as "sound" - regardless of how sound or useful he might or might not be after age 4...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I recommend the following links for a good discussion of why thoroughbreds are being bred the way they are, and how that economic model affects what they are bred to do:

Soundness

Sample:_In this story, I quoted New York Post turf writer Ray Kerrison: “Breeders don’t breed to race anymore. They breed to breed, because that’s where the money is.

“The result is that the tracks have nothing to promote, the public nothing to excite their interest.”

Hall of Fame trainer P. G. Johnson agreed. “They’re breeding catalogue page to catalogue page. We’ve had a lot of brilliant horses retire. These horses sometimes sire unsound brilliant daughters who are bred to still more brilliance. 

“We should breed to soundness and outcross, but that is not what’s best commercially.”

All that long while ago, I actually saw Eight Belles coming; I just didn’t know her name yet. And I have never in my life been so sorry to be right about something as I am about that. The problem now, however, is exacerbated by a total lack of diversity with which to affect outcrosses (actually, no true outcrosses are possible, but there was a time when we could come much closer).
_​Also here:

Racing's Royal Bloodline - WSJ.com_"No matter what happens in tomorrow's Kentucky Derby, one outcome is guaranteed. The winning horse will be related to Native Dancer. All 20 horses in this year's race are descendants of this massive thoroughbred, who died in 1967. Though he did not win the Derby -- he lost by a head in 1953 -- several generations of deliberate breeding have made Native Dancer's DNA the most valuable commodity in racing. The last 13 Kentucky Derby winners have been descendants, as was the last triple crown winner, Affirmed...

...Overbreeding has exacerbated the problem. "There's a lack of durability right now," says Ric Waldman, the former head of operations for Windfields Farm in Canada, which has bred and raced Native Dancer's descendants. "How much can we keep breeding into these same bloodlines? We're dealing with the law of diminishing returns."

_​Eight Belles:


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## HAFWalkers (Jan 2, 2012)

nice looking horse


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## stefanixx (May 18, 2010)

HAFWalkers said:


> nice looking horse


Haha Thanks  (i hope youre talking about mine haha) I think she is beautiful wheter she has super conformation or not


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