# Tack Critique



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I know this is the horse and rider critique section but do you'all mind looking at this saddle? It's a Bates Caprilli - I think it's about 6 years old? I'm looking at buying it for Riley and I fell like it probably fits him pretty ok but can you glance at it and also see if I'm an ok fit in it? I'm looking down in the pix because I'm looking at the saddle and he's not really being pushed forward because I'm talking and discussing the saddle so don't worry about him. If you need me to get pix where I'm really pushing him out in it I can probably do that.

Also, can you tell me what you would pay for it? Or what it might be worth? Also is there a way I can look it up to see exactly how old it is? It comes w/ the bates leathers and the stirups that are on it (which are cheap ones).

Thanks...


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Riding pix with the saddle... I felt like my stirups were too short...


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## amymarie57 (Feb 20, 2011)

I am by no means a saddle expert:shock: but does it looks like the saddle flaps aren't long enough for your leg? Almost like it's a bit too small for you or is this normal. Is it a close contact? I'm asking this because I'm curious too I'd like to know the answer from some of our more experienced posters.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

It's a close contact. The flaps look really forward to me like maybe it's for jumping? That's another question I had! Thanks for reminding me!!!


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## amymarie57 (Feb 20, 2011)

farmpony84 said:


> It's a close contact. The flaps look really forward to me like maybe it's for jumping? That's another question I had! Thanks for reminding me!!!


Okay, yes they're supposed to be forward flaps for the jumping. But when you said your stirrups felt short I then pictured them longer I was thinking that might look weird :-|? But I've been stuck on this a/p wintec for a few months that doesn't have the flaps shaped like that so I'm stuck thinking my saddle is normal and anything else looks weird. haha I'm sorry I'm just so used to my own tack I don't think I should be allowed to make a judgement on anyone elses :shock: *slowly steps out of the room* lol


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I'd say jumping saddle. 

If you could get a few more pictures like the first ones (him with just the saddle on). One from the very front - Try standing infront of him, put your arms around his neck and get the very front of the saddle. Same for the back to see if it is centered and off his spine.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

the saddle looks like it fits your horse pretty well (in my totally novice opinion) however it doesn't look like the flaps are right for you. 

i've seen these models go for anywhere between $450-900 so it all depends. does it have the CAIR panels or flocked panels? that seems to make a difference in price as well.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

It does have the cair package. I'm wondering if it is too forward for HUS as well...?


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## blush (Feb 10, 2007)

I used to work for a certified saddle fitter and I can honestly say I don't like how the saddle fits the horse, how it fits you ESPECIALLY and I generally don't like bates to begin with haha.

On your horse, it sits weird..idk but it just looks off. If the saddle is sitting on your horse without a pad, can you easily run your hand under the saddle and over his shoulder without any pressure? If you can the saddle fits well there but seems to be too wide at the withers. If you can't, the saddle is too narrow and you need to look for a wider model. To me, the saddle looks a tad wide, but a few bumper pads would fix that.

For you, the saddle is completely wrong. I can't imagine you attaining a proper position in that...thing haha. The flaps are way to short even though your stirrups are at the right length for jumping (this is a jumping saddle by the way). The seat is also too small because you have a longer femur and therefore you must get a larger seat to accommodate for your leg. This saddle is absolutely fine for HUS but NOT FINE for you. Just based on how you fit the saddle, you NEED to pass this one up.

Plus, I really don't like bates. It's a cheaply made saddle (I'm pretty biased cause I got to work with the best made saddles in the world) and the whole CAIR system is complete bs. The reason that the best saddles are flocked with wool is because wool molds to the horse aka it breaks in! The CAIR system does not. It's like when you buy a pair of new riding boots, you want to break them in asap cause they hurt like crazy! If your boots NEVER broke in, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be a happy camper. Same with wool flocking and the CAIR system, CAIR never breaks in. 

In regards to getting an A/P or CC, do you do a lot of jumping or mostly flatting? CC saddles are mostly used for jumping, but do just fine while on the flat. I love my CC and do excellent when doing HUS. Just my opinion tho! Gorgeous horse btw. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Ugh! (thanks for the compliment on Ri by the way). I haven't even started jumping him and may not. He's only just now turned 5 so to answer your question, I do mostly flat. That saddle has the wide gullet in it. The medium wide was too narrow for his shoulders. 

Do you suggest anything (brand wise) in particular?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Ok. How about a third or fourth totally different opinion? Isn't the itnernet wonderful!
I see a fairly nicely fitting saddle, at least from what I can see from the front/angle view. it also seems to sit correctly from the side, neither too high nor too low in front.

Howver, I agree that this saddle is maybe a bit too small for you. You do have a nice, long femur, so the flap is abit short, IF you lower your leg where it wants to be. the seat is also one size too short for you.
What size is it? You will have a very sore PeePee if you ride in a saddle too small for you for any length of time.

Your horse is also swishing his tail in all of those shots. This may or may not be normal behavior for him, But can be a sign of irritation.

There you have it!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I think the tale swishing was because of the flies. They have been horrible and he doesn't really have a tail so his swishing is REALLY animated! The saddle is actually a 17. So I geuss I'm a fatty!!! LOL. That makes me want to cry too!


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

If you didn't know that it is a jumping saddle what kind of saddle are you looking for? I have a 17.5 Shleese dressage saddle with adjustable tree and wool flocking for sale


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## GeminiJumper (Jun 12, 2008)

Yep, definitely a jumping saddle with very forward flaps. Are you looking for a jumping saddle? I think if you let your leg out any longer than that, it would look very strange. I think the seat might be a touch too small for you.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I'm looking for a close contact. I think it is a close contact but I'm thinking it is a jumping. I asked the girl selling it and she said it is just a close contact?

This is going to be the 3rd saddle I buy for Riley so I really need it to fit, that's why I posted it here for critique. It's looking like I'm going back to the drawing board. I'm really at a loss. I had an HDR, then a Toullouse. When I took him to the tack trailer we tried a Butet, a Toullouse Genisis, a wide HDR, a no-name brand and something else. Nothing fit.


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## GeminiJumper (Jun 12, 2008)

Is there any way you can have a saddle fitter come out and either test out a bunch of saddles of have him take a look at your horse's back and hear what he has to say?


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## Wancata (Dec 6, 2010)

blush said:


> On your horse, it sits weird..idk but it just looks off. If the saddle is sitting on your horse without a pad, can you easily run your hand under the saddle and over his shoulder without any pressure? If you can the saddle fits well there but seems to be too wide at the withers. If you can't, the saddle is too narrow and you need to look for a wider model. To me, the saddle looks a tad wide, but a few bumper pads would fix that._Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly. Running your hand under the saddle at his shoulders will help you feel for pressure and see if its to tight. When the saddle is on your horse without a pad, you should be able to see light from the back and front. Meaning if you were looking through the cantle of the saddle to the pommel, you should see light through it and reverse. Also be able to fit 3 fingers in the tree with and without a pad. You don't want to have to over pad. 

A few people also said it looked a tad small. It does, sadly. The seat is a little small for you which would make the flaps a little short too just being a small saddle (i think). But its a nice looking saddle! Especially for jumping. 



blush said:


> The reason that the best saddles are flocked with wool is because wool molds to the horse aka it breaks in!_Posted via Mobile Device_


The good thing about a wool flocked saddle is it can be reflocked or have added wool to raise it up or reshape it when it gets older. You will find however that most CC saddles, saddles used primarily in Hunter/Jumpers are stuffed with foam and cannot be reflocked. Its a bummer, but extremely common. A majority of CC saddles are foam. 



farmpony84 said:


> I'm looking for a close contact. I think it is a close contact but I'm thinking it is a jumping. I asked the girl selling it and she said it is just a close contact... ?


CC saddles can be used for Jumping. Most hunters I have known have CC saddles. Maybe thats where the wires are crossed. Some people look at CC saddles and jumping as the same. But I would ask the girl selling it for sure!!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I've done that. They said he has a long wither and a wide shoulder and then they tried a ton of saddles. They said they have a stubben guy that can come and have a saddle made for him but that is not an option for me right now so what I need is to find something that will work for us.


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## GeminiJumper (Jun 12, 2008)

Is there any saddles out there that are extra wide? Then maybe you can supplement with correction pads to fit better. As far as having a long whither, does that mean the saddle has to be placed farther back or needs a wide gullet clearing?


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## blush (Feb 10, 2007)

Loveeee stubben. 
The saddle flaps are made longer on some of their CC saddles and fit people with longer femurs. I have a stubben (and a longer femur) and I love it. Fits me and robbie super, perfect for hacking and jumping and really comfortable. However, a tad more expensive. 

I also really like Amerigo. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Farther back. What about this? It's still a bates but it looks less forward?

BATES HUNTER JUMPER CLOSE CONTACT SADDLE 16.5,17, 17.5 | eBay

I have my Toullouse listed on ebay right now. I geuss if it doesn't sell I can maybe use it as a trade in on something...


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## blush (Feb 10, 2007)

It's still going to fit the same in regards to you. Your leg isn't going to sit properly as the seat is probably still too small. You need about an 18' seat for the saddle to properly fit YOU.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

farmpony,

needing more than a 17 inch does not make you a fatty. It is the length of your femur that dictates this. I'd kill to be a thin as you! (well, not kill . .. )


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

The saddle fitter told me I needed a 17? I'm 5'3 and 135 lbs, are you sure that I'm not sitting funky?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I've never been accused of having a long femur... are anything long before... I'm so stressed! I'll never be able to sleep tonight! 

I texted the girl and told her I don't think the saddle is going to work. I'm going to have to bring it back to her this week I geuss.... 

My saddle will end up selling on ebay and husband will spend the money I get on bills... I'll never have the money to buy another saddle again. Oh whoa as me! (I'm sad now.)

I have a fat butt, a long femur, a funky shaped horse and and ... sniff...


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## blush (Feb 10, 2007)

Honestly, your leg is right where it's supposed to be. And because of that, you need a bigger seat to accommodate for your longer femur. Seat size has nothing to do with how "fat" you are, trust me. I have a longer femur and had to go with a larger seat for my saddle. I was upset cause I thought seat size was how big my behind was. However, my leg has never been in a better position because of the extra room I have in the seat!
Long femurs are actually a desirable trait to have as a rider, they give you a better angle to work with in regards to your leg position. There is absolutely nothing wrong or weird with you I swear! Saddles are tricky and we are just trying to explain why theses saddles won't work for you! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

well. I'm still whiny and want to go hide in the pantry and eat a ho-ho right now but instead I shall go to bed but please keep posting because I really am taking this in. As I said, this will be the third saddle I buy for him and I really don't want to buy another.

Pistol was three when I got him and he is now 27, I've never had a saddle fitting issue with my sweet pea but now this young whipper snapper comes along and my butt spreads with age... and and and... off to bed!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

What about this?

Miller's AQHA Close Contact 17W English Saddle | eBay


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

FP, I'm late to the party, but... I think it was OK fit for the horse, but not for you. (and yeah, I don't like Bates much either). For your size I'd say 17 should be OK. I'm WAY taller than you (5'8"+) and I have 18 for my CC (could of go with 17.5 even per my saddle fitter). 

I'd suggest to look into Thornhill may be. It was a good fit for my mare (although I ended up with wide MT something). BTW, even with MT it'll depend on model a lot: I tried 3 and only one was a good fit (can't think of name right now, but not one from Dover, I think Claudine or something).


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Here are just a couple other pix with it.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Farmpony, I think you looked pretty good in it to be honest, besides the seat being a smidge too small for you. I had that issue with my Harry Dabbs. While I am a 17.5", that saddle was a smidge too small on me - hence why I sold it and moved on. 

I think it did put you in a nice position though. It appears you were able to balance yourself over your feet easily. Did it put you in a nice position, did you feel "snug as a bug in a rug" in it? If you did keep it though, I feel your bodies weight would of ended up putting too much pressure on your horses loin area over time. Which is what happened to Nelson - he's now out of commission for a while because of this very reason.


What you need to do, for saddle fit - is go to the sticky thread that I made in the Tack and Equipment section - there is a whole line of video's I posted, made by schleese to show you how to fit a saddle. Very informational, very educational. I do think this Bates was a smidge too narrow. How many fingers were you able to get between the Withers and the Pommel? 3? More? If it were more, then it's too narrow. 

The issue I have with the bates, on your horse - is that there isn't even contact from pommel to cantle. Look at the picture, and see how the panels near the back, lift up - no longer touching your horses back? That's not good. That will cause issues in the long run.

And I also dislike their gullet channels, too narrow. Just like Wintecs. Another reason why I dislike Stubbens is because of this...their gullet channels are way to narrow for my liking. You need to beable to get 3 to 4 fingers inbewteen the gullets from pommel to cantle, and I cannot even get 3 in a stubben - I dislike them. Too much pressure on your horses spine. 

I would look towards the Marcel Toulouse. They have nice wide gullet channels, flocked with wool, and very well made for their price. I just got the Marcel Toulouse Premia. 

You can do trials through this company. They are just a hop, skip and a jump away from me, and sell M.T's. 


http://www.classicsaddlery.com/saddles/saddlesjumpingtoulouse.htm


She also has some M.T's on clearance sale. 


http://www.classicsaddlery.com/closeouts/toulouseparini.htm


Also Millbrook Tack. They are good to work with as well.


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## amymarie57 (Feb 20, 2011)

What is the difference between a close contact and a jumping saddle? I know close contacts are FOR jumping but I never knew there was a style of saddle called jumping. I must know! lol


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

jumping I think has a more forward flap.


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## GeminiJumper (Jun 12, 2008)

amymarie57 said:


> What is the difference between a close contact and a jumping saddle? I know close contacts are FOR jumping but I never knew there was a style of saddle called jumping. I must know! lol


Most jumping saddles are close contact but some will have much more "forward cut" flaps to accommodate the tighter leg angle for jumping.

A regular close contact saddle has a more normal flap shape. And of course the whole saddle is designed to bring the rider closer to the horse with minimal bulk.


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## xEquestrianx (Aug 30, 2009)

farmpony84 said:


> I think the tale swishing was because of the flies. They have been horrible and he doesn't really have a tail so his swishing is REALLY animated! The saddle is actually a 17. So I geuss I'm a fatty!!! LOL. That makes me want to cry too!


 
No! English saddles run different. If you ride a 15" western, you ride a 17" english haha. So no you aren't a fatty.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The Bates Caprilli CC saddle comes with different flap styles, and yours looks like a forward flap. I have the same saddle in a regular flap. I like riding with a longer leg since I don't jump, and that looks 'different' with a CC saddle...but I actually like it. I don't like long flaps because I like having direct contact with my leg against the horse. Yes, it makes my jeans (horrors! wearing jeans in an English saddle! but I also use a navajo blanket...I'm hopeless) sweaty, but I wear $14 jeans from Wal-mart and have a washing machine.

The Bates I've got (I have two) do not have narrow channels. I don't know if they did in the past, but I can slide all 5 fingers with my hand down the channel of my AP saddle. The CC saddle is a little narrower (3.5 fingers?), but both are wider than the other English saddles I've seen. Not that I've seen a lot - southern AZ is not the place to see a lot of English saddles. Not in the circles I run in!

CAIR is...well, a mixture. I honestly think it was designed to allow a manufactured saddle to have consistent pressure without needing someone to come adjust your stuffing to your horse. If you have one saddle/one horse, then wool flocking may be better as it settles. If you have one saddle/2-3 horses, then CAIR is probably a plus. It never breaks in for one horse, but you never have a saddle that is molded to one horse on another horse's back. Mine have interchangeable gullets, which I like.

My 2 horses (and the third I sold last December) all seemed comfortable and happy with the CAIR panels & Bates.

As for quality...it isn't a $2-3,000 dollar saddle. I bought mine on sale new for $1000, and it is a very good $1000 saddle!

Also, if it does have the CAIR panels, then Bates recommends you do NOT use a thick pad. "Once you have achieved an optimal fit with your saddle featuring CAIR® the saddlecloth should only serve one purpose — to keep the saddle clean. Thick saddlecloths should not be used for padding, as they will compromise the performance of the CAIR® Panels in providing the ultimate comfort, constantly adapting with the horse’s working muscles." 

They also say you MUST have the rider's weight in the saddle to check fit. "Simply, air is a fluid medium and flocking is a static medium and, therefore, they operate in a different way. The most important difference when fitting an air panel is that the even bearing of the panel will not be evident until the rider is sitting in the saddle. It is only when the rider’s weight bears down that the air will fluidly move to hug the horse’s back and distribute the rider’s weight evenly. To check even bearing of a saddle, the rider should be seated in the saddle."

CAIR® Cushion System : FAQs

As for your fit in the saddle...looks OK to a bit small to me, but I don't have much expertise. I know what I like or dislike, but my approach to riding is a bit odd.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Virginia Equestrian.com 

What about this one? It looks more like what you guys are talking about? Although it is a 17...


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Never mind that one because it is an all purpose. SO... I oiled that bates twice and it is SO pretty. I measured it. It is a 16.5 and not a 17.

I e-mailed the ladies from Champion and asked them to bring some saddles to the show. I relisted my toulouse but it probably won't sell so I'll use it as a trade in I geuss. I'll give that bates back after I get some good pix for the owner. I think she wants to run it on ebay.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Well I hope everything works out! And would like an update on the new saddles!


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Dover Saddlery | Pessoa Gen X Natural XCH Saddle .

Have you looked at Pessoa saddles? Very comfy well balanced saddle (at least for me), and adjustable gullets.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I saw one on ebay and was wondering. I wonder if there is a tack store around here where I could actually go look at one and feel it? They do seem to be nice. Are the flaps short, long, average?

And this: 100-year warranty.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

teehee... I remeasured the bates. I really like it but it's not a 16.5 it is a 16. This time I measured and remeasured. I also think it's a deep seat. Can you tell from the pix because if it IS a deep seat then I know for sure I want the flat seat.


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