# Hunter Under Saddle? Seriously?



## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

It's the same here in the local shows. I wanted to enter Sunny in the Huntseat or English walk/trot classes when she got older, but when I observed.....all it was was peanut pushers doing western jogs and lopes. It looked like WP horses in English tack. I, like you, was very confused. It's like they have to post in slow motion to stay with the horse. It's dissapointing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

Can someone post a video of a HUS class where the horses meet the OP's description? I'm not all that familiar with HUS.


----------



## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

I went to one last weekend, a barn mate showed her horse. It hasn't happened here, the HUS horses still have their upbeat trot and good movement.

Of course, it was an arab show and they don't have a particularly low headset anyway even in the world shows so idk.


----------



## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

The same thing is going on here too. I keep seeing all these horses advertised for sale saying the horse is always in ribbons in both WP and HUS and I think, huh? Until one posted a video and I kid you not, it was someone riding a WP horse, in WP gaits with an english saddle trying to post to a WP jog!! I couldn't believe that THAT would get them ribbons in HUS???? I was actually starting to think it was because they could only get WP judges out here and had to settle for a WP judge to judge the HUS classes until you posted this.

I never "got" how it was practical for a horse to move that way for WP anyway, but I REALLY don't get how it would be practical to go up to a fence stumbling like that with the nose on the ground..hind in all disengaged.


----------



## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

Well I'm glad it hasn't effected the arabs


----------



## tempest (Jan 26, 2009)

Eliz said:


> Well I'm glad it hasn't effected the arabs


....yet.

I don't pay a whole lot of attention to many of the pleasure or HUS classes anymore because of this little factor. It disgusts me. I'm waiting for it to affect the pleasure horses and when it does, I'll probably go home and continue ponder the question that I already know the answer to, "What is the world coming to?"


----------



## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Just watch any video of a jumper and you should see the HUS movement. That's the idea, at least, to judge how well the horse would jump. But when the HUS horses are tripping over their noses the idea behind the class is kind of lost.


----------



## Rowzy (Mar 1, 2010)

I've noticed that in schooling shows around here too. The same horses consistently win most of the WP and HUS classes, doing the same thing for both, just with different tack. Some of them do speed up for HUS... slightly.


----------



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Rowzy said:


> I've noticed that in schooling shows around here too. The same horses consistently win most of the WP and HUS classes, doing the same thing for both, just with different tack. Some of them do speed up for HUS... slightly.



As I have stated on another thread. Same judges for both classes.

The qualification is that they judge WESTERN.

If they actually got a real live hunter judge (the ones that judge the non quarter horse or western shows) I can guarantee they would not want to pin anyone.

Many disciplines go through stages and "fads" and you can put the blame squarely on the judges.


----------



## Rowzy (Mar 1, 2010)

I know its because they have the same judges for both. I have stopped going to the schooling shows at this particular place because of that.


----------



## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

We had a trainer out to the barn a few months ago who saw me riding my QH and suggested I show him in HUS. Her points that I would need to work on: He needs to slow down that trot a good bit....think jog with extention. It made no sense to me at the time but now that i've seen a few HUS shows...yikes. I haven't shown or watched shows in about 15 years...my oh my how things have changed!


----------



## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

Is this HUS? Looks like WP to me.


----------



## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I mean, seriously. Have any of these judges even read the standard? It's really not that hard.


----------



## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

draftrider said:


> YouTube - hunter under saddle
> 
> Is this HUS? Looks like WP to me.


 
Heading toward a jump with that gait-Be afraid......be VERY afraid! YIKES!

I have noticed the same thing here, and like others, I just don't get it. Personally I feel like I am going right off, but then, I have done H/J for too many years. (not just WP with an english saddle)


----------



## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

I posted a thread a couple of weeks ago asking if it is normal to have to kick at every stride on a hunter jumper, as I had a lesson at a hunter jumper barn and this is what I found most difficult about the horse. I had no trouble jumping the jumps and surprisingly enough, neither did the horse (jumps were only 3'). The only real difficulty I had was keeping the horse MOVING in between fences as he would literally stop if you stopped kicking!

Coming from an eventing/SJ background back home is Australia, I wanted to try HJ to see what it was like - always good to try something new right? WRONG. I love the way the course rides with long straights and beautiful lines to each jump however I really didn't like having to keep the horse moving by kicking each stride (as instructed by the trainer). I don't mind pushing a horse if it needs to be encouraged to be more active but there is no way I would want to ride a horse around a course if I have to push it every step of the way. How do these horses jump anything of real height, like 4' and above? I understand that part of the objective is to look as pretty as possible going around the jumps but catatonic is not pretty in my books.

I don't think I will pursue the HJ world after that experience - put me on a clock, give me an awesome course and watch me go!!!


----------



## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Sarahver-This super slow/low like this video I have seen primarily at QH shows. Not at H/J shows. I rode H/J for years, and did not find I had to constantly push the horse. Perhaps it was the horse you were on?


----------



## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Ah, thanks for the clarification franknbeans, is it not the same mentality though? Apparently (from what I have been told) what the judges like in the HJ are 'whip and spurs horses'. This was explained to me as a horse that requires a whip and spurs to get it to move. Hmmmm.

It could be just the barn that I went to (quite a successful one I might add) so I probably won't be going back there again. If I come across another HJ barn I might just give it one more chance and pop in to have a lesson there instead, just to see what it is like.


----------



## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Sara, 

Please do. I really think the horse you rode was an exception. A good hunter should have "cruise control" - once you set the pace in your opening circle, you shoudn't have to make a lot of adjustments. They can be an utter joy to ride. 

This thread is about Quarter Horse breed shows, which are very, very big in the states, but very, very different from the regular hunters. None of the horses shown in this thread would do very well at a regular hunter competition. They're being judged by the QH/ Western Pleasure standard.


----------



## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Thanks guys, I am still gathering information about how everything works here, we really had no western riding whatsoever back home so I sometimes forget that there is this whole other dicipline out there! 

I promise to make no more sweeping assertions about the HJ world after visiting only one barn!


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

One of the things so amusing in the video draftrider posted is that the rider has her hands down by her knees (ok, half way down her thighs) most of the time. Not even close to the right place for a hunter rider to have their hands. But that seems to be the norm.

Sara, I agree with Maura. This is not what you see at a real hunter/jumper show. Not at all. Breed and open show HUS is only called that because they use English tack. It looks nothing like this at a real hunter show.


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Alwaysbehind said:


> One of the things so amusing in the video draftrider posted is that the rider has her hands down by her knees (ok, half way down her thighs) most of the time. Not even close to the right place for a hunter rider to have their hands. But that seems to be the norm.
> 
> Sara, I agree with Maura. This is not what you see at a *real *hunter/jumper show. Not at all. Breed and open show HUS is only called that because they use English tack. It looks nothing like this at a real hunter show.


Her hands are not in the proper location, even for a breed show. She's probably in a class judged soley on the horse. 

Hunter classes are REAL in any show. This is a breed show, that video shows what that particular type of show is looking for. If you don't like it, don't show it.

If you go to an upper level hunter show you'll see a very different ride that may be more what you are looking for. 

Quarter horses do very well in the local level hunt shows, which are an even different ride then the upper levels. The upper level horses are very collected (as defined by spyder and maura) and although they have a more forward moving gait, it is very controlled. 

In the local level shows the horses are heavy on the forehand, their heads are in the air and they are moving quickly but not collected.

Arabs are trained in a very different way, if they are showing in the breed shows, their hus horses move a lot more like the QH ones, although they carry their heads higher. I show at arab breed shows so I know this from experience.

Quarter horses don't do as well at the higher level hunt shows, unless they are the appendix and even then, it depends on the frame and build of the horse, they have to be able to acheive the way of movement that is being asked in those shows.

Hunter / Jumper horses are not the same as hunter horses.

These disciplines are all different. If you don't like one, then choose another. There is something out there for everyone.


----------



## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I think the hats that the judges are wearing SAY IT ALL....they are looking for a WP Horse with english tack.....

and as for the rider, I have nothing NICE to say at all, so I'm gonna keep my trap shut. At least she rides better than I currently do....ok, so one nice thing lol. But I'm FIXING THAT ha ha.


----------



## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Farmpony, 

I am very careful to avoid phrases like "real hunters" - there's the USEF hunters, and then there's breed show hunter under saddle, and they're both quite "real", though judged by different standards. It makes perfect sense for a breed show to judge by the breed standard rather than the USEF hunter rule book. And you're absolutely right, QHs that have shown HUS in breed shows tend to do very well in local hunter divisions, (I've had a couple) just not in the USEF rated divisions with the really big moving, typey horses. 



> Quarter horses don't do as well at the higher level hunt shows, unless they are the appendix and even then, it depends on the frame and build of the horse, they have to be able to acheive the way of movement that is being asked in those shows. ​


 Agree with this statement 100%.
​ 
USEF rated hunters are connected, not collected - you won't find any mention of collection in the rule book, but let's not flog that poor decomposing beast any longer.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I apologize for using the term real to describe a hunter jumper show. I should have used non-breed or USEF. Real was for sure the wrong word. I was not using it to make one sound better than the other, just to distinguish between breed vs USEF type.


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> I think the hats that the judges are wearing SAY IT ALL....they are looking for a WP Horse with english tack.....


You are not serious? Making a decision based on what the judge is wearing?


----------



## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

mls said:


> You are not serious? Making a decision based on what the judge is wearing?


I was half joking about the hats....but the judges did look to me more like they would be looking for WP than HUS. Just my opinion...may it be right or wrong. I guess it's just me, when I used to show in CA we always had a different judge for Western day and a different one for English and the English judges just were different. They carried themselves differently, they dressed differently, they talked differently. But, that was 10 years ago, and it was in Southern California....I know things change. I know perceptions can be wrong...


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

mls said:


> You are not serious? Making a decision based on what the judge is wearing?


I have to admit... I too am guilty of basing my decision on what the judge is wearing. I remember I went to an invitational once and the judge had on this long flowing scarf and these movie star sunglasses... I decided then and there she was going to be a flake! LOL....


----------



## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Goodness, I don't care WHAT show you're showing at. All HUS horses should move out, instead of dragging their feet in the sand. I haven't watched a HUS class in five years, but five years ago at our Summer Classic we had big, muscular QH's moving out, head sup, looking ready to compete. I _loved it. _I even competed with a mare of mine one year because she moved out too much for WP.

Lord, how things have changed in a short amount of time.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Stock horse breed show HUS classes have not gone to this in the last five years. It has been a much longer time than that.

I tried riding in an appaloosa show (which follows along with the QH trends, behind them) 12years ago with my horse that I do Hunter/Jumper shows at and I was told my one judge that my horse is just too fast and is not broke in the head. Hmmmm... OK. :? He travels level with his nose poked out slightly and he has a trot. 

So for sure more than five years.


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Stock horse breed show HUS classes have not gone to this in the last five years. It has been a much longer time than that.
> 
> I tried riding in an appaloosa show (which follows along with the QH trends, behind them) 12years ago with my horse that I do Hunter/Jumper shows at and I was told my one judge that my horse is just too fast and is not broke in the head. Hmmmm... OK. :? He travels level with his nose poked out slightly and he has a trot.
> 
> So for sure more than five years.


You got me thinking, so I went online and searched for quite a while. I was going to try to post a WP champion from the 70's and then the 80's, 90's 2000 and current but I couldn't find any. I have some of the QH legends books at home. I'll try to get some. It would be interesting to see the changes. And to do it for "real:wink:" hunters too... just to see the changes over the years. I'll try to find some pix and start a new thread... just to compare the changes over the years.


----------



## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

The Summer Classic show has normally been so good with their HUS. I never watched a HUS class anywhere else, so At least at this show it has been in the past five years. It disgusts me how much the horse world is rapidly declining. Even the normally "Pure" sports are losing it.


----------



## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

Oh man, HUS and Hunter/Jumpers are two completely different disciplines. I always thought HUS was western pleasure with an english saddle but I went to Pinto World last week and watched a WP class... it made the horse in this video look like it was galloping. So I guess technically these horses are "moving out" a heck of a lot more... but here's a video of a nice Junior hunter round at Devon (a big H/J show). This is the ideal pace and length of stride for this division.

(Sarahver- notice, no crop. no kicking. Jessica stays quiet, the horse stays the same)


----------



## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Upnover - that looks much better, what a relief! Thanks for sharing


----------



## Deerly (Apr 18, 2010)

This thread is very interesting! I was looking at videos on youtube very recently and was very disappointed that all the HUS and English Pleasure videos looked just like western pleasure horses! 

I know there are people on this forum that defend the WP frame and gaits and that's fine - to each their own - but I'm really not a fan and have no interest watching horses stumble around like they've been demoralized :lol:

I always expected HUS to be energetic, forward and was under the impression that HUS horses were preparing for the jumping ring or at least should look like it? In short, I had the same disappointment as the OP.

Some of the posts about quarter horses is actually why I always was so disinterested about the breed. I don't like the QH "culture" or shows or the western style that is so commonly associated with them. I never in my life thought I would own a quarter horse for those reasons but I've discovered they can be very versatile and my guy is training for dressage, has energetic gaits and does not ride with his nose in the dirt!


----------



## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Oh yes, I personally find the QH on of the most versatile breeds out there ^^

The problem being, it's become so differant between disciplines now that some of the english horses don't look like QH's anymore and the western horses are having a tendency to turn into big ol' tanks at 14.2hh.

Selective breeding, I swear.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

sarahver said:


> Upnover - that looks much better, what a relief! Thanks for sharing


Yes, thank you!


----------



## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

How sad, they are doing it to the Paints too! I went to YouTube and looked up Paint Hunter Under Saddle and watched about 10 vids...all had horses stumbling around with their noses between their knees. I guess I am going to decide to NOT take Cinny to the Paint shows and show him in the PAC classes...there is no way he will ever move like that and I don't think I want him too.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Paint and Appy shows pretty much do what ever is winning in the QH shows.


----------



## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Sad sad sad....I am glad that my English stable (one of the few in NE) hosts dressage/english shows. I am glad to see the Pony Posse with their horses/ponehs riding around looking like the HUS's that I'm used to even if Cinny doesn't like ponehs running up from behind him. And I'm glad that is how our trainers train the horses and riders to show.


----------



## Deerly (Apr 18, 2010)

SorrelHorse said:


> Oh yes, I personally find the QH on of the most versatile breeds out there ^^
> 
> The problem being, it's become so differant between disciplines now that some of the english horses don't look like QH's anymore and the western horses are having a tendency to turn into big ol' tanks at 14.2hh.
> 
> Selective breeding, I swear.


Selective breeding for sure! But what is sort of funny is my quarter horse is very "foundation" looking and very beefy and bull-doggy and "western" looking but his natural head carriage is not low or anything remotely resembling western pleasure which is what you always hear -- that qhs are just "naturally" like that. I still think it's mostly/largely training 

People make fun of him because he is such a typical western tank (although he is 15'3 at least) and I ride him English and am teaching him lower level dressage. Honestly though he has no natural issues to work through and his gaits and body carriage is just a very typical horse.

My friend has a western quarter horse who has what I would consider a normal natural head carriage which is raised and alert. I've never seen a horse I would think would be a natural peanut pusher, quarter horse or not!


----------



## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I know it, and the funny thing is the standard for WP now says that the horses head should be level to its body.

And just anothe rnote on the HUS.....If I was the judge and saw this movement, I would disqualify the whole bloody class. But then again I'm a long ways away from ruling the world, so I guess that'll have to wait


----------



## devildogtigress (May 17, 2010)

Its been YEARS (um...about 15 years) since I did any Hunter shows (I discovered eventing in the PC and that's all I wanted to do from then on) but this is what I remember them being.


----------



## SallyRC123 (Aug 22, 2008)

Unbelievable!


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

devildogtigress said:


> Its been YEARS (um...about 15 years) since I did any Hunter shows (I discovered eventing in the PC and that's all I wanted to do from then on) but this is what I remember them being.
> 
> YouTube- Intermediate Hunter Under Saddle Schooling Show


That's a hunter show though, not a breed show.... it's different... but cute class!


----------



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

farmpony84 said:


> That's a hunter show though, not a breed show.... it's different... but cute class!



The problem is that even if it is a hunter show the breed shows should have their horse looking like what is being done in the open shows.

Example...you don't do different dressage because you are running an arab breed show or a quarter horse breed show. Dressage is dressage and hunter is hunter, the standards should all be the same. I can understand not looking as good due to breed conformation but never should it be mongrolized to look so far removed from the original concept that it is unrecognizable anymore.


----------



## devildogtigress (May 17, 2010)

Spyder said:


> The problem is that even if it is a hunter show the breed shows should have their horse looking like what is being done in the open shows.
> 
> Example...you don't do different dressage because you are running an arab breed show or a quarter horse breed show. Dressage is dressage and hunter is hunter, the standards should all be the same. I can understand not looking as good due to breed conformation but never should it be mongrolized to look so far removed from the original concept that it is unrecognizable anymore.


My Thoughts Exactly


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Spyder said:


> The problem is that even if it is a hunter show the breed shows should have their horse looking like what is being done in the open shows.
> 
> Example...you don't do different dressage because you are running an arab breed show or a quarter horse breed show. Dressage is dressage and hunter is hunter, the standards should all be the same. I can understand not looking as good due to breed conformation but never should it be mongrolized to look so far removed from the original concept that it is unrecognizable anymore.


I wish that was the case!!!!

I watched the Hunter over fences classes at the appy national show (on line). :shock: Who knew hunter meant run as fast as you can at every jump? And I mean seriously, come out of the corner and crank your horse up to a gallop and get going so fast they are jumping flat and ugly.
There was one horse that went a nice quiet pace, it placed under the run for your life horses.
I was very disappointed.
A person who started their course on the wrong lead (all the way to the first jump) placed over the nice course.


----------



## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

devildogtigress said:


> Its been YEARS (um...about 15 years) since I did any Hunter shows (I discovered eventing in the PC and that's all I wanted to do from then on) but this is what I remember them being.


This is very much what I remember too, and how Cin moves...well he's getting there anyway. He's just not a head even with his shoulders kind of guy. He has a NICE sitting trot that may pass as a jog in some WP shows, however...he still doesn't put his head down, instead he lowers it slightly and puts his neck into a beautiful arch that rounds down through his shoulders and still picks his feet UP off the ground.

I think what was posted in the video is what they look for at the open shows at my stable. I was talking about it yesterday with the trainer and she said it's funny because you can tell which horses are from other stables just because they all move in a WP way and they just don't train that way at our stable. And because we always have several dressage classes, our judges are very English judges...yay. I can't wait, I wish Cin was ready to show this fall.....if my daughter or myself were young enough for walk/trot he'd probably do well....but his canter is a cross between a race horse and a train wreck ha ha.


----------



## Ariat164 (Nov 27, 2009)

Eliz said:


> Well I'm glad it hasn't effected the arabs


 haha nope and it wont either most arab people (including myself) are disqusted how these "hunters" move particularly in the qh world lol.


----------



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Ariat164 said:


> haha nope and it wont either most arab people (including myself) are disqusted how these "hunters" move particularly in the qh world lol.



The arab people are a different lot entirely and they have some strange concepts in different areas.


----------



## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

I feel the same way. I don't know what's happened to the show world. 
I had a lesson yesterday on a WP/HUS horse, and it was nothing like riding a normal horse. He walked so slow I thought he would halt at any moment and his lope was slow and choppy. Plus he had the lowest headset of any horse I've ever ridden. I will say that his trot was super comfy. He was also trained to do a spur stop, which I've never had experience with before. I couldn't believe how different it was from everything I've been taught previously. 

But I agree. I don't care for the "modern" HUS. I hope it's just a passing trend.


----------



## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I don't really care what show it's at, an HUS horse shoudl look ready to jump, not trip over it's own feet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GreyRay (Jun 15, 2010)

I dont get it either(how these people even have the balls to call it HUS, or how they even consider these horses collected). But I come from a different forum... so im to chicken to speak my mind lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

GreyRay said:


> I dont get it either(how these people even have the balls to call it HUS, or how they even consider these horses collected). But I come from a different forum... so im to chicken to speak my mind lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Just go ahead. Most of us are pretty bold here.


----------



## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Trust me, there are some pretty blunt people. I used to think them to be rude...But now I'm one of them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------

