# Is a well behaved horse too much to ask for?



## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I wonder if anyone else feels the same as me? I went out for a horse ride with a very good friend of mine, I love this friend dearly even though this thread is basically about slamming her. Ok so we went out for a nice big ride, it was a beautiful day, the weather was perfect, the scenic vista was stunning, we had a bottle of wine with lunch. It should have been a perfect day. BUT her horse is a lazy ****,SOB. I mean he dawdles along, dragging his bum, he is always twenty to thirty paces behind us and then he has to have a big trot to catch up but he slows right down again and is soon trailing far behind once more. This is frustrating in itself because it means that my friend and I are trying to shout a conversation which is annoying. But then we head for home. And that **** horse suddenly turns into a complete effin f-wit. He starts prancing and dancing, jiggy joggy crap, every little creek and puddle on the track has to be jumped with a completely over the top sized leap. 

It really peeves me because my horse Phoenix starts to get antsy herself because this **** horse keeps running up her bum, she starts getting nervous because every time he does one of his ridiculous lunges across a puddle he runs up her bum. I dont know if I am being completely unreasonable about this but it ruins my ride. I consider that type of behavior completely unacceptable and it really annoys me that MY horse starts performing in the same way every time I ride with this pair. The truth is I am spending more and more time riding on my own, me, my horse and the dogs. I love the company and camaraderie of riding with friends but I am sick and tired of badly ridden horses.

I know that horses can be unpredictable blah, blah, blah but I also know that there are some behaviours that are rider derived and they really annoy me. The worst thing was I started snapping at my friend, when her horse was dawdling I kept telling her to Get Up Him! and then when he started running up our bum I was like, For gods sake can you stop running into us! At the end of the ride I was just frustrated and annoyed which is not how I like to be when I come home from a good days riding. I know I am such a nice friend (sarcasm). I think I will just ride on my own in the future.


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## SailorGriz (Nov 28, 2010)

Kiwi, I read once that there are no bad horses--just bad riders. Sounds like your friend isn't taking care of proper training/discipline/manners for her horse. If it makes you angry or frustrated to ride with her, don't ride with her. 

But, be a real friend and tell her why and offer to help if you can.

Mr. Big has two walking speeds: fast and slow. He prefers slow. Slow doesn't come close to keeping up with the Mrs. mare. Even fast doesn't quite keep up (the Mrs. mare has a walking speed that's about fourth gear!). I'm working with Big to get him to pretty much always either use his fast walk or his slow, smooth, trot. It's the only way we can keep up. 

But it's NOT Mr. Big's problem nor fault. It's MY problem, and the previous owner's fault--if there is fault to be had, which I doubt, since he probably never went out with anyone as fast as the Mrs. mare. So he never had to be pushed to go fast.

We'll get there. Someday we'll go out with the Mrs. and her mare will be the one struggling to keep up. In the meantime, Big might have trouble keeping up--but the mare has trouble going the distance. Big can walk her into the ground in just a couple hours. That's not the mare's fault--it's the Mrs. fault for not riding her enough to develop stamina.

'Cause there's no bad horses. Just bad riders.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

if this was Facebook, SailorGriz's post would be liked! very well said


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

You know whats so frustrating is that I have had that conversation with my friend. She knows very well that her horse can walk better than he does when going somewhere but she can't be bothered chasing him up to get him to do so. And she likes all the silly stuff that he does when he heads for home, she giggles away and tells him he is a "naughty little ****** who's full of beans". She loves the crazy jumps he makes, she thinks its fun. How can you talk to that logic? I guess I am feeling a bit sad too because I do like riding with others but I have zero tolerance for crap. The other friends that have the same mentality as me, I don't have many opportunities to ride with because they are competitive horse people so are difficult to pin down for a casual trail ride. And other than the ridiculous behaviour of her horse this woman is one of my dearest friends, going for a ride together is our way of catching up and hanging out. I tell myself to just suck it up and ignore the behaviour but MY horses behaviour as she reacts to HER horse is completely unacceptable.


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## SailorGriz (Nov 28, 2010)

Wrong attitude, Kiwi. If riding with her makes you frustrated and up-tight, don't ride with her! It simply isn't worth it.

Riding should be relaxing and enjoyable. If something, or someone, is making it frustrating and annoying, avoid that someone or something. 

It sounds harsh--but you have to take care of yourself, first. Either that or resign yourself to not enjoying nice trail rides when you ride with her.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

yep, I know your right. I have to resign myself to the fact that I am Nigel No riding Friends..*SIGH*. I do like riding by myself though so not the end of the world.


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

Kiwi, I read this thread and smiled and smiled. Reminded me of a friend that rides mostly alone, but I feel so privileged because she loves to ride with me. Both of our horses are very forward and very attentive so riding together is such a pleasure. Plus, common sense and safety is in our vocabulary. LOL!

I have only a handful of friends I will ride with, and it's getting smaller as I get older because my precious time to ride is less and less and I'm pickier with whom I ride. I can't tolerate foolishness on the trail, or people that make excuses for ill behaving horses. 

So I can sympathize with what you have written, but rejoice that I no longer ride with people like that. Well almost never, as there are some in the club I belong to, but I have learned to position myself behind. That way they can't ride their horse into my horses butt ect... Though I haven't ridden much with the group this past year, and didn't miss it.

Like you, I do most of my riding alone, and enjoy it. But, it is nice to ride with a few good friends that actually are in control of their horse.

So while I offer no advice, I thank you for the reminder of how much I should appreciate my few good riding buddies! :wink:


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## chvyluvgrl (Jan 16, 2011)

I have a friend that has a very naughty horse. I mean really it is not her. I know that it has been said there are no bad horses just riders. This is not the case with my friend she works with her horse on every ride to improve his behavior and he has improved ten fold, but he still has a long way to go. She and I attend clinics together and ride miles and miles together. When you ride together sometimes you get annoyed. However, in all honesty, it is good for your horse to be in a situation with an ill behaved horse. Maybe you should focus on the positive and work with your horse on your horse’s behavior during the ride. You can’t blame your friend’s horse for your horse’s behavior. It is a hard challenge to keep your horse level while the other horses aren’t but it is great practice. If you keep riding with your friend your horse will soon realize that the escapades of the other horse are just the way he is and your horse will relax and ignore the other horses actions.


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

Unfortunately i am that bad riding friend with the badly behaved horse. My barn friends were kind enough to trailer me and my idiot horse to a local park for a nice two hour walking trail ride. My horse stomped my foot when getting out of the trailer, bucked before we even got on the trail and wouldn't let one of the other horse pass him when i tried to say i would ride at the back. He also spent a good portion of the ride feeling up the horse in front of him. He jigged so badly on the way back to the trailer that i couldn't walk the next day (bad back issues).

At this point i should say that it was my horses first trail in 4 years, he was in a bitless bridle that he wasn't listening to at all and i was nervous. That being said, i apologized to my friends and set about fixing the issues with my horse. I won't go out riding with him on trail until he listens better to his new bit which he is doing nicely in an arena type setting now. 

I've made plans to attend a trail clinic in the area in the summer and my friends are going to trailer me and my horse along so we can learn some things that will hopefully help us both.

sometimes horses act like idiots on trail, it happens. i hope you can convince your friend that she needs to work on resolving some of her horses issues while he is out, if she won't or can't maybe you shouldn't ride with her.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Actually Chvyluvgrl I bloody well can blame her horse for my horses behaviour!!! This is not a situation where I am riding with a friend who happens to be riding a young or green horse that lacks confidence and is fearful. IF I was in that situation then I would be nothing but supportive and would expect a level of ill behaviour. I would also expect my friend to be like yours and try to work with that horse to improve the bad behaviour. That I would not find annoying but that is not the sort of situation I am talking about.

I am talking about a solid, well trained horse that knows how to behave being allowed to misbehave and dance all over MY horse because it's owner admits to being And I quote "too soft to do anything about it"! After Phoenix has been rammed into from behind a few times she becomes twitchy and nervous and spooks out of the way every time she hears this other horse rampaging up behind her. Quite frankly I dont blame her for behaving like this and think it is quite reasonable to want to get out of the way of an idiot. You know the irony is that people with green horses like riding with Phoenny and I because Phoenix is so calm and unflappable and such a grounding influence on spooky horses and I worry that not only is it annoying for me but that by constantly subjecting her to this nonsense that she will become less and less tolerant.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

The problem is my friend doesn't think that there are any issues with her horse. She is perfectly happy with his behaviour. I am the one with the problem because I don't like my horse becoming spooky from being run into all the time. I have talked to her about it and she just shrugs and says about her horse " he behaves like a **** but he isn't dirty". Personally I feel that him shunting into my horse IS dirty but she has no problem with it so what can I do? Simple - don't ride with her anymore.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I bet she , your friend, has a similar perspective about how frustrating it can be to ride with Kiwi, who insists on total obedience all the time. It takes the fun out of a ride!

Personally, I am with you in that I hate a rider that knowingly lets a horse misbehave for the shear amusement of it all. I might not be able to tolerate if long , unless I had a lot of affection for the person outside of those situations, in which case I would just have to grit my teeth and just remind myself that it won't last forever. Your horsemanship may provide a valuable example to her. You never know.

I find that very few of the people that I ride with are that perfect riding companion. Most are too timid, others talk too much and one of them is too harsh. But my friends who are more timid really appreciate it when I ride with them and keep the pace to a level that they can do with comfort. The appreciate that, and I appreciate being appreciated!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> I bet she , your friend, has a similar perspective about how frustrating it can be to ride with Kiwi, who insists on total obedience all the time. It takes the fun out of a ride!


I guess I am the bad friend too, lol! One of my horses is AWESOME, and is always among the best behaved horses in the group, if not the very best behaved. But you know what? If a horse is giggy, or slow, or hyper, as long as it isn't really creating a danger, I just let it roll off me. I think agree with the quote above, it DOES take the fun out of the ride if you have to be "perfect" all the time. 

My horse who actually is close to perfect, is also very slow, and it would annoy my friends with gaited horses because I would always have to trot to catch up, and that would get their horses all excited. My horse is pleasing me and doing as I ask. If trotting up excites their horses, then maybe it's THEIR horse that needs the training. Know what I mean? 

In other words, if my horse is doing as I say, and isn't a danger, but he has to trot to catch up, and the other horses get excited, maybe it's the other horses that need the training. So I dunno, I guess I would enjoy riding with your friend with the "bad" horse, because it just wouldn't bother me. And if the horse getting rammed were actually annoyed, I'm sure it would kick, or at least threaten to. 

I do think it's bad behavior to let your horse get too close to another one, and especially it your horse is ramming into another one, but all in all, if it's really a problem, then the horse being rammed will give dirty looks and threats at some point.

I have ridden with one lady who is so tense, and so worried about her horses being perfect, that she is tense, mad at her horses all the time, and her horses are nervous wrecks. Sometimes you just need to relax and have fun.  Riding should not be an experience that makes you mad. It should be fun!

Because of my relaxed attitude, I also have a reputation for ridding jiggy horses that other people would not enjoy. But that's okay, they only have to please me. 

I did finally buy a gaited horse to keep up with the gaited horse folks, but I'm sure my QH friend will find her annoying, because she is rather go-y and jiggy at times. But hey, you can't please all your riding buddies all the time. But now I have a fast horse AND a slow horse, so I am prepared for most occasions.

But relax and have fun, that's what riding is all about. And if the "bad behavior" bothers you, then maybe it's best you ride apart.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

My horse does threaten to kick my friends horse all the time, I am pretty sure that I am reading my horse correctly when I say she gets as annoyed and angry about it as I do all the tail swishing, bum flicks and flattened ears is definitely a clue - I think my horse must be as anal as I am about being rammed from behind. To tell you the truth I am a little amazed that I have become the problem in this scenario because my horse and I don't appreciate being leapt on top of every ten meters. I started this thread because I needed to vent a little frustration after a day that could have been perfect became a debacle. You guys have no idea where I ride or what sort of country I am in so you cant be expected to understand how important a well behaved horse can be. Call me crazy but I would rather have my horse watching where her feet are instead of trying to swing around and see what the other fool is doing when there is nothing between us and a 150 ft drop. I don't mind a little bit of silliness on a ride, I don't even care about jiggy joggy horses but are you telling me that you think it really is ok that my horse ends up having to take evasive measures, Continuously - for hours! -to avoid being hit by another horse? To tell you the truth its not even the crappy ride that gets me its the fact that this could be avoided if my friend would just push him along at the start of the ride instead of letting him dawdle and mooch along - and please don't give me the whole slow walking horse argument. This horse is not a slow walker when he is going in the direction he wants to go in, he has a lovely big walk when he feels like it. My friend laughs about her Jekyll and Hyde horse, thinks its a great joke and in the mean time my girl ends up becoming a bug eyed and nuerotic mess. Anyway may be I am the problem I'll shut up now and get on with riding on my own.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I didn't mean for you to think you were the problem. Sorry about that. 

I guess it's just human nature to look at both sides of the equation and play devils advocate. Maybe I was being devils advocate a little too much. But I guess I could relate to the whole "slow horse" thing, because I am normally the one on the slow horse that has to catch up. Not ram anyone......that is not good, but just catch up. And then when I do catch up, other people's horses act all looney, and somehow that is my fault? So that's where I am coming from. For all I know, your friend and her horse could be a complete menace! I am only speaking from my own perspective.


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## chvyluvgrl (Jan 16, 2011)

I understand that you might have been run into. My horse has been kicked multiple times by my horses friends so many times in fact that when her horse flicks its tail my horse sidesteps because it thinks its a leg thrown out there. But at this point my horse still behaves well and well enough to help the other horse out. If the horse is running up your horses butt then grab a stick or a whip or a crop and swing it behind you. When he runs into whap him. I would just lay it to your friend "you aren't going to at least try to work with your horse then I don't really want to go with you" or maybe find a clinician and take your horses to the clinic together. Then you can help one another apply the principals. To be honest I don't think I would want to go riding with either one of you. I want my friends to be understanding, and I want them to try. I think that someday when it is you and your "unflappable" horse having the bad time you will want a more understanding friend then you have been.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Be of good cheer, Kiwi! There's a simple solution: Take a 12-14 foot lead line with you, (tie it to saddle) & when horse gets too close, flap it at him, as much as necessary to back him off. It's better for the rider when she doesn't always have to be "the bad guy" pulling the horse up; it just comes from in front of him, from another "herd"!


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> And if the horse getting rammed were actually annoyed, I'm sure it would kick, or at least threaten to.


Sorry, but no. My horses know they are NEVER allowed to threaten to kick another horse while I am around - On the ground or under saddle. It is simple manners. Not to mentioned I ride mounted games where we are passing each other at a flat gallop - A horse who tries to kick another is a menace.

*

Kiwi - I feel your pain! I onyl ride with a select few, about 4, friends. We all know each other, all have well behaved horses, and all hold ourselves, our horses, and each other to a high standard. I don't think it should be any other way, honestly. That doesn't mean we don't have fun - Most of our trail rides are ambling along on a loose rein at a walk or loping along on a loose rein chatting! But we can do this and do it safely because our horses are well trained.

Interestingly enough, I had a similar, but different situation. When I got Latte and started riding out on trails with one of my good friends, she drove me bananas - Latte is not naughty at all but she is super green, and said friend kept riding off to do her own thing, leaving me on a very herd bound, green broken pony. We had some hairy moments! While it was very frustrating, it just meant that I avoided riding with her for a while, and worked doubly hard to teach Latte to be happy being left behind. The result? now I can ride with her again and I have a still green broken pony who is as solid as my show horse being left behind on the trails.


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## traildancer (Oct 27, 2010)

Kiwi--please don't stop posting on this subject. I am interested in how you deal with this situation.

I have been on both sides. Fortunately, when I have been riding a young, just-started horse, it was mostly with my sister-in-law who had a youngster of her own coming up. We would joke about "money in the bank" and making withdrawals when the time came.

My husband rides drag all the time, no matter what horse he is riding. But when he gaits to catch up he doesn't ram into the horse in front of him. However, when Shorty is directly behind my horse, he likes to nip at Sailor's rear. Shorty is boss in the pasture. My husband will gently lay a hand (I can't call it a smack) on Shorty's neck and in a sarcastic tone say, "Shorty!" Like that disciplines the horse. Angers me no end. So I started swinging the end of my rein at Shorty anytime he got close. Don't care what part of him I connect with. Some men just never learn.

I also have a friend who I like very much, but her horses, in spite of her insistance, are not well trained. They don't stand still to mount; don't stand still on the trail to take photos; won't side up to something to mount; won't allow the rider to adjust the stirrups while still on the horse. She has three horses all "trained" by the same trainer and, in my opinion she wasted her money and time. That being said, I still ride with her because these issues don't concern my horses. If that's what she chooses to tolerate that's her issue. I just calmly sit on my horse waiting while her's dance around. Other than the afore-mentioned problems, her horses are okay trail horses. She thinks they are perfect and well-trained so I don't offer any advice. Live and let live. If they were dangerous to me, my horses or her, I would say something.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Kiwi,

You sure took that and ran with it. No one said your were the problem. I only said that EVERYONE has their perspective and that from your friend's point of view, the ride has a different color. 
Personally, and I said this in my first post, I am with you. I prefer a well mannered horse and a responsible rider, and it wears on my patience to have to go out with the kind of rider your described. However, I think that it's worth doing it occasionally for the sake of THAT person, and maybe to help us stay humble and patient,for our and our horse's sake.

I would LOVE to ride in the kind of country you ride in. But I might not be able to keep up with you. Would that try your patience? Would you come off after the ride grumbling about having been held back by me?
Honestly, I agree with your points about keeping safe and such. Were it me on that ride, I would have asked the bumm-butting friend to lead. That would have taken care of all the issues. Or is that not a possibility?


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

"Many people lack the *self discipline* necessary to be really great with horses. What I’m talking about is ownership of everything that goes on. Everything that goes on with your horse, from the time that you head to get him from the pasture in the morning until the time when you release him to graze again after a day’s work, is your responsibility. You own it. If it goes well, if it goes poor… the good, the bad, and the ugly… it’s all yours. I tell riders in my classes, If your horse kicks another horse (in the class), it’s your fault for not recognizing that shaping up and getting your horse doing something different. If your horse gets kicked by another horse, it’s your fault for not recognizing that shaping up and getting your horse doing something different.
_You own everything that happens when you are with your horse._ You can’t blame somebody else or their horse for your frustrations. That other person usually has enough trouble handling their own problems… they don’t need you adding to their pile. Just deal with what you have on your plate." -Patrick King, horse trainer

I completely understand your frustrations with that horse's trail behavior. Maybe your friend could benefit from the above quote...? I think I would rather ride alone than deal with that, best friend or not. I know my riding time is valuable to me and I want to make the most of it, not worry about falling off a cliff! :shock:


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Yes, I love my friend which is why I have been putting up with this for going on two years now. But unfortunately there is a cumulative effect happening. I don't mind her horse lagging behind me, the only difficulty is trying to have a conversation. The thing is that now my horse is so conditioned to her horse thundering into her from behind that now when she hears him trotting to catch up she immediately spins and spooks because she thinks he is going to hit her. I do try to put her in the front of us but of course going one direction his walk is so slow that I am riding Phoenix's mouth to keep her behind him and then, going the other way although there is all this jigging and frothing and leaping the **** horse still isn't really going any faster because he spends so much time dancing on one spot so I am STILL hanging on to Phoenix's mouth.

Please believe me when I say a horse doesn't have to be perfect to measure up to a ride with me. I just want to be able to enjoy my ride as much as she does, my friend loves to jump and she and her beast charge off to jump every jump-able log we come across and I love that she does that and love to watch her. I don't think I am a total killjoy I just want to feel like my space is being respected and to feel safe. Please also bear in mind that her horse is coming up 14, he has hunted, evented and trekked for many years. My horse is rising 6 and hasn't been ridden for three solid years yet. Mine is the green horse, hers is the one that we should be leaning on.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

kiwigirl said:


> hers is the one that we should be leaning on.


Maybe...maybe not. I think that all depends on the temperament of the horse, but that is another discussion entirely. 

As far as trying to have a conversation with another rider on a slower horse, I know allll about that! LOL I have two trail mares, one has a normal walking speed, and one has the slooowwweeest walk on the planet! TTouch offers some suggestions on how to speed up a slow horse. I don't have a trail partner very often, but when I do, I ride the faster horse and ask her to do different exercises to slow her pace. We might stop and back a few strides, do circles, try sidepassing....little things that keep us in the same general area as the pokey horse. I know that is differet than a nice relaxing ride, but it might be something to try when you ride with this girl and her horse....


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## SailorGriz (Nov 28, 2010)

Heck with it Kiwi. I know you like your friend. But, I just got back from four hours of Heaven with just me and Mr. Big. Having someone to ride with would not have made it better. COULD not have made it better! 

Do your friend a favor by telling her why you don't want to ride with her and then go get some Quality Time with your horse! 

Sigh. Sounds easy, huh? I feel for you, girl. Hope it works out!


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Hey Sailorgriz, you are absolutely right! All this thread is really about for me, what actually inspired me to start it is simply that if I start only riding by myself (which as I said I do really enjoy!!) I might start to get a bit lonely and that mad me sad and frustrated.

Thanks for the advice Sahara, I do spend a bit of time doing these things especially when I am at a gate waiting for my friend to catch up and it is her turn to open it, we take turns even though I Always get to the gate first. Unfortunately some of the tracks and paths we ride on don't allow for much more than just picking ones way down it.

I bought myself a new set of rider friendly (hopefully) head phones for my ipod so that is going to be from here on in I think. Me, the horse, the dog, the other dog and some music - doesn't really get any better than that does it!


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## SailorGriz (Nov 28, 2010)

Kiwi, toss in a glass of wine, a bagette, a nice sunset (or rise), and I'm there! Of course, then you wouldn't be alone. ;-)


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Northern said:


> Be of good cheer, Kiwi! There's a simple solution: Take a 12-14 foot lead line with you, (tie it to saddle) & when horse gets too close, flap it at him, as much as necessary to back him off. It's better for the rider when she doesn't always have to be "the bad guy" pulling the horse up; it just comes from in front of him, from another "herd"!


Thanks for this idea Northern! I probably wouldn't use it because I wouldn't want to spook my friends horse because the areas where most of the problems occur are generally narrow tracks with steep and often very high drops into rivers and gorges. Naturally when we are in a nice flat paddock its not a problem because he doesn't have to be tucked right in behind us. The tracks that we are walking on are steep and rutted with little trickles of water running over them and its the trickles and ruts that her horse has to have huge leaps over - even if they are only 12 inches wide. To be honest I wish my friend was "the bad guy" pulling the horse up, its the LACK of pulling the horse up that bothers me, if only she would pull the horse up I wouldn't have started this winge fest at all- lol.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I just thought I would chuck in a picture to give you an idea of what the land is like that I ride in. I know it doesn't look too bad but if you look just to the left of Phoenny's ear on the other side of that ravine you will see that half of the track at that point has fallen into that crevice which is roughly 70 ft deep with a river in the bottom. This does not leave much track to use. You can see that the tracks are cut into the sides of big steep hills. These hills are primarily comprised of Papa clay (all the grey rock you can see)which is extraordinarily slippery when wet and because of the nature of the land, in some places never dries out. Nothing sticks to Papa - not even trees and plants. The slip that I pointed out earlier is what we call a "greasy back" When soil and foliage get too heavy it simply slides off the clay infact all of the exposed clay that you can see results from greasy backs - slips are really common. Tracks can not be trusted, and it is not unusual to have to turn around and go back the way you have come because a track is impassable. Wonderful in the summer - very much a challenge to ride in the winter. Trust me you do not want a spooky horse on some of these tracks!


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

Gorgeous! Yeah..........not alot of room to be doing "exercises"! LOL


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

If this is the country you normally ride in, you are so lucky.

That said, it isn't fair to you or your horse to continue to ride with this friend. Her allowing the horse to act like it does could end up souring your horse or you on going trail riding.

And this terrain looks like a place that these types of behaviors could literally "push you over the edge."

I would just ride alone. 

Wonder what she will be like as a parent?


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Palomine said:


> If this is the country you normally ride in, you are so lucky.
> 
> That said, it isn't fair to you or your horse to continue to ride with this friend. Her allowing the horse to act like it does could end up souring your horse or you on going trail riding.
> 
> ...


Thanks Palomine, yes its the being pushed over the edge stuff that worries me. Call me crazy but I just want a nice easy walk thanks very much! Accidents do happen here, we have thousands of wild goats in our hills and I have seen more than one plummet to its death. There is a fair amount of stock lost every year too as you can imagine. I do a lot of stock work on those hills and when your shifting a mob of cattle on the tracks you have to be careful not to push them too hard and panic them because some will literally get pushed over the edge and its a horrible feeling when it happens. 

Although ( I know this is off topic ) one day my friend and I were shifting a large mob of cows and heifers, a portion of the track we were on had shorn off leaving the track only half its width. One heifer was busy trying to watch what was happening behind her and just stepped out on nothing. I went "Oh my god that heifer! What shall we do?!" The guy I was with said "she'll be right". We got the cattle down to the valley floor and sure enough there was the heifer all caught up with the rest of the mob. She was covered in mud, she was a black Angus turned completely grey. She had slid Indian Jones style about 50 feet down to the valley floor and then got up and joined the rest of the mob. Personally its not the way I would want to get to the bottom of a hill but she was fine.


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## traildancer (Oct 27, 2010)

Kiwi--that is amazing about that cow! Wow. And your picture of where you ride? Simply fantastic. I would say awesome but that word is far too over-used.

I agree--I sure wouldn't want someone's horse bumping from behind on those trails. How lucky you are to have that area to ride in. I'm jealous.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Why don't you let hers lead going home since it is in a hurry and then it won't be running up on you? When I went trail riding at the trainers my horse was in the lead with the trainer and the middle horse ran up on him on purpose and smacked him and would run into him several times and my horse went on with out missing a beat, it was reassuring to watch the horse not react to someine elses antics. No reason you cannot get your horse to listen to you and ignore the other horse. Will get some more foundation in making him that much more solid


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

churumbeque said:


> Why don't you let hers lead going home since it is in a hurry and then it won't be running up on you? When I went trail riding at the trainers my horse was in the lead with the trainer and the middle horse ran up on him on purpose and smacked him and would run into him several times and my horse went on with out missing a beat, it was reassuring to watch the horse not react to someine elses antics. No reason you cannot get your horse to listen to you and ignore the other horse. Will get some more foundation in making him that much more solid


Yeah, the first couple of dozen times my horse was ok with it too but trust me it wears thin. Tell you what, you go for a ride with your trainer again, go for a 6 hour ride and have your trainer run his/her horse into your horse every ten yards or so for about three hours of that ride, then report back to me as to whether your horse got sick of it or not and started to try to avoid being hit. Now go do the same thing next week, and the week after that and the week after that and so on and so on and then come back and tell me whether YOUR over it or not! My horse is becoming less and less tolerant as time goes by. 

Actually I have been thinking about it and realized the last ride I went on with my friend was the worst that Phoenix has ever been in regards to being really jumpy about being hit from behind. I have also realized that it was the first ride we have been on with another horse since she had a rather major leg injury. Phoenix had an accident a few months ago and I thought we were going to have to put her down for a while, she rather horrifically cut her back leg. I wonder if she was being ultra protective of her leg? 

I did explain in a previous post why my friend and her horse don't go in front.


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## chvyluvgrl (Jan 16, 2011)

kiwigirl said:


> I just thought I would chuck in a picture to give you an idea of what the land is like that I ride in. I know it doesn't look too bad but if you look just to the left of Phoenny's ear on the other side of that ravine you will see that half of the track at that point has fallen into that crevice which is roughly 70 ft deep with a river in the bottom. This does not leave much track to use. You can see that the tracks are cut into the sides of big steep hills. These hills are primarily comprised of Papa clay (all the grey rock you can see)which is extraordinarily slippery when wet and because of the nature of the land, in some places never dries out. Nothing sticks to Papa - not even trees and plants. The slip that I pointed out earlier is what we call a "greasy back" When soil and foliage get too heavy it simply slides off the clay infact all of the exposed clay that you can see results from greasy backs - slips are really common. Tracks can not be trusted, and it is not unusual to have to turn around and go back the way you have come because a track is impassable. Wonderful in the summer - very much a challenge to ride in the winter. Trust me you do not want a spooky horse on some of these tracks!


 I can't believe that your friend would want to ride a horse this badly behaved on this trail. Doesn't she feel as though she is endangering her life and yours not to mention your horses? I ride in Alaska so we have some fairly knarley trails like this and my friends with badly behaved horses get off and walk or don't come.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

kiwigirl said:


> Yeah, the first couple of dozen times my horse was ok with it too but trust me it wears thin. Tell you what, you go for a ride with your trainer again, go for a 6 hour ride and have your trainer run his/her horse into your horse every ten yards or so for about three hours of that ride, then report back to me as to whether your horse got sick of it or not and started to try to avoid being hit. Now go do the same thing next week, and the week after that and the week after that and so on and so on and then come back and tell me whether YOUR over it or not! My horse is becoming less and less tolerant as time goes by.
> 
> Actually I have been thinking about it and realized the last ride I went on with my friend was the worst that Phoenix has ever been in regards to being really jumpy about being hit from behind. I have also realized that it was the first ride we have been on with another horse since she had a rather major leg injury. Phoenix had an accident a few months ago and I thought we were going to have to put her down for a while, she rather horrifically cut her back leg. I wonder if she was being ultra protective of her leg?
> 
> I did explain in a previous post why my friend and her horse don't go in front.


Not sure why your undies are in such a bunch. I didn't have time to read every novel you posted so I didn't catch why hers isn't in front. If I had I still would say let hers go 1st so you are not getting run into. 
Sounds like you should just ride by yourself. Not sure why you would subject your self to 6 hour rides week after week getting run into? That doesn't make sense if it is that bad to keep doing it


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Chvyluvgrl that is what is so frustrating for me. Her horse fusses and dances and behaves like a **** but he is actually very safe - for his rider. He has no problem ramming into us - he doesn't mind! He's not spooky or aggressive or even trying to race home, like I said earlier he isn't any faster on the way home than when he is dawdling on the way in. He just goes from a shambling dawdle to a prancing, jog punctuated by huge leaps every time there is a little rivulet or puddle to cross. My friend feels absolutely safe on her horse, I'm the one who is no longer feeling safe because it is MY horse who is spooking as soon as she thinks he is going to ram her up the bum - again.

I do get those of you saying that your horse should be solid enough to put up with this but really I think the other side of the coin is that I am riding a horse who is smart enough to not want to be thumped into anymore. We have put up with it for a couple of years know and frankly I just can't do it any longer, Phoenix definitely can't put up with it any more, and really, why should she? 

Thanks to everyone who has put up with my whinge fest and dilemma. I have decided to ride on my own a lot more. If I do ride with my friend I am going to plan a ride around lots of open paddocks so her horses behaviour won't effect Phoenny and I. It limits the riding we can do together but I think its a fair compromise.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

churumbeque said:


> Not sure why your undies are in such a bunch. I didn't have time to read every novel you posted so I didn't catch why hers isn't in front. If I had I still would say let hers go 1st so you are not getting run into.
> Sounds like you should just ride by yourself. Not sure why you would subject your self to 6 hour rides week after week getting run into? That doesn't make sense if it is that bad to keep doing it


Thanks for your kind and considerate input. Please say some other nice things about me. I hope this post wasn't too long for you to read.


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## SailorGriz (Nov 28, 2010)

kiwigirl said:


> Thanks for your kind and considerate input. Please say some other nice things about me. I hope this post wasn't too long for you to read.


Heehee! Kiwi, some folks just don't have a kind word for anyone--except, maybe, themselves. I wouldn't know 'cause I don't pay enough attention to 'em!

And, enjoy the solitude of just you and your horse! A blue sky, a good horse, pretty trails . . . life just don't get any better'n that!


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Hey Sailorgriz, thanks for that but I shouldn't have been so reactive. Churumbeque, if your still around I apologize for being grumpy and snarky. You actually made a fair call questioning why I continue to ride with my friend if it is so unpleasent. I will try not to write another novel.

My friend owns a 5 acre block on the edge of town and she is relatively new to my area, before she met me the only place she had to ride was up and down the road she lives on. Since becoming my friend the scope for her riding has opened up as I have thousands of acres available to ride on. If I say I'm going to stop riding with her she is back to trudging up and down the road again. She is a very nice person and a dear friend and I hate the thought of doing that to her.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

kiwigirl said:


> Hey Sailorgriz, thanks for that but I shouldn't have been so reactive. Churumbeque, if your still around I apologize for being grumpy and snarky. You actually made a fair call questioning why I continue to ride with my friend if it is so unpleasent. I will try not to write another novel.
> 
> My friend owns a 5 acre block on the edge of town and she is relatively new to my area, before she met me the only place she had to ride was up and down the road she lives on. Since becoming my friend the scope for her riding has opened up as I have thousands of acres available to ride on. If I say I'm going to stop riding with her she is back to trudging up and down the road again. She is a very nice person and a dear friend and I hate the thought of doing that to her.


Not a problem. In didn't look back at the post but why doesn't she lead going back? I understood she is slow going out but not returning.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Kiwigirl, your trails are lovely! And I can see why you would rather not be rammed on them!

I'm also so glad to see Phoenix is healed up and doing awesome!


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

churumbeque said:


> Not a problem. In didn't look back at the post but why doesn't she lead going back? I understood she is slow going out but not returning.


Unfortunately she is just as slow on the home journey, its just that her horse is jigging on the spot and dancing sideways and then when he gets to a six inch rivulet across the track he stands on the very edge of it, sinks onto his haunches and launches himself across it as if its a four meter chasm (this is the point the ramming happens). None of this makes for a nice forward moving horse and my horses normal walking pace is still faster than all his silliness and we end up jammed up HIS bum unless I am continually pulling on Phoenny's mouth, which for me is still not a happy solution. I always feel like I am damned if I do and damned if I don't.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm glad I got back to this thread to see the photos of your trails. I knew it would be beautiful. I can see why you would be really uncomfortable with being rammed from behind. When it's a life or death thing, there's no time to mince words. I think I'd probably loose it, turn around and say, "Get the f*** off my tail!!" Then I'd have to work hard to repair the damage done, but for a second, I'd feel better. Hard to relax with all that going on. Yeah , better to ride with Sailor Griz.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

I think you could use this opportunity to help your friend become a better horsewoman. Explian why you don't like it and how it will not be good to develop bad habits and can be dangerous to others and show her how to get her horse to step out. That you would like to continue riding with her but not at your expense. If done tactfully she really may grow from this


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

I feel the exact same way, but for slightly different reasons. Well-trained trail horses are HARD to come by.

I happen to have a *really *well-trained horse. A horse that will never change gait, faster or slower, without me telling her to do so. A horse that will go immediately from a full-out gallop to a relaxed walk on a loose rein... on the way home... with 5 other horses jigging past her. A horse that will walk by anything without spooking. A horse that will canter right through any flat, shallow body of water.

The problem with having such a well-trained horse is that almost every other horse you come across is not as well-trained as yours. I don't have a problem with the jigging, jumping, etc. in itself (although the circumstances are different - I definitely don't ride in dangerous territory like you do, and the other horses don't run into my mare). The problem is the overly cautious riders making my ride unenjoyable. The people who have to stop every time they see a car, take huge detours around something that may spook their horse, walk the entire way home, and refuse to do anything more than a walk through places where their horse has spooked previously. I don't say anything because they aren't being rude or endangering me or my horse, but it's frustrating for me! I have so much more fun by myself, so I rarely ride with other people.


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

Cloud, I fee the same way about my girl T. Fortunately I have a handful of friends that know how to control their horses and look at "scary" things as opportunities to train their horses.

It has taken years to "weed out" the people I could ride with to these few friends, but it was worth it. Though I do ride alone a great deal of the time, it is so pleasant, and I cherish the times, when I am able to ride with these friends.

I can understand Kiwi's frustration. Forget that the friends horse is so slow, its the bumping/jumping into Kiwi's horse that would finish it for me. I don't tolerate that well, because I am my horses advocate. We have a partnership, she looks after me and I look after her. And that means if a horse is being rude/dangerous to her, I take care of it. 

While Kiwi enjoys this friend and cares for her, that doesn't mean they are compatible in trail riding, as she has expressed. Sometimes we just can't have it all. 

And yes, having a well behaved , trail savvy horse is a wonderful thing, it should be something that we all strive to have as trail riders. I consider that to be my "Grand Prix" in my chosen discipline. Would I compete in dressage or any other discipline on a horse that I have no control over? Of course not. Then why would it be okay on the trail, especially there where so many variables exist.

I firmly believe that the most sane and well mannered/obedient horses should be used on the trail. That this is what all trail riders should strive for. Sure , we may not all achieve what CM or Kiwi has, but shouldn't that be what the bar is set at? Just my thoughts.


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

Walkamile said:


> I can understand Kiwi's frustration. Forget that the friends horse is so slow, its the bumping/jumping into Kiwi's horse that would finish it for me. I don't tolerate that well, because I am my horses advocate. We have a partnership, she looks after me and I look after her. And that means if a horse is being rude/dangerous to her, I take care of it.


Yes, that. If your friend wants to giggle and laugh at her horses' spunky behavior, leaping across imaginary rivers and so forth, she can ride on her own. I doubt many of us would want to be a passenger in a car with a driver who darted in and out of traffic, and didn't follow traffic rules. I think the friend needs to understand that there are trail etiquette/safety rules, too. Phoenix knows there are 'horse manners' rules, too, which is part of why she doesn't want the other horse ramming her. And, I wouldn't be surprised if she isn't still a bit protective of her leg and balance on thos slippery trails. She probably got hurt in the first place from slipping/sliding into the buried wire, so she's smart enough by far not to want a repeat of that! 

I agree that the 'better rider with the better horse' needs to make allowances for people and horses who cannot yet perform up to the high bar that we strive for with our trail horse partners. But, I also feel that the friend is not taking responsibility for safety and courtesy if she's allowing her horse to misbehave like that. I want my mare to trust me and thus I owe it to her to watch out for her safety, too. If Phoenix trusts you to be the "leader" (and I know she does, since I've read your post about her injury) she is expecting you to do something about the other horse, just as an alpha mare would step in to discipline a badly behaving horse in the herd, IMHO. 

Kiwigirl, any chance that there's another (sane) horse that you could use for your friend to ride when you're on your dicey trails? Then you could enjoy her company without the frights? I ride a lot by myself, and love it, but I do yearn for a good ride with a good friend on occasion. It's tough...


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I have talked to my friend about getting him to move along when he dawdles, about settling him into a nice comfortable walk from the outset of a ride. I've even offered to swap horses so I can get him moving along but she is too unconfident to ride a horse she has never ridden before. As for pushing the horse on she kind of just rolls her eyes and says "I know I should get up him but I'm too soft".

You guys have raised some valid points about being a trust worthy leader. At the end of the day I couldn't give two hoots about how my friend rides or what she expects (or doesn't expect) from her horse. It is only an issue for me when it effects MY horse. My responsibility is to my partner who is a very trusting and sincere beast and my priority is definitely to keep her feeling safe and taken care of. If someone else had started this thread, complaining about the same things I have been I would have said - are you mad? Why keep riding with that person? The only thing that has kept me struggling with this dilemma has been guilt regarding letting my friend down. NOW I am feeling guilty about letting Phoenny down by letting this dancing fool dance all over her. 

I will still ride with this friend on occasion. We sometimes go to the beach together, her horse really loses the plot at the beach but it doesn't worry Phoenny and I because he isn't on top of us. Also road riding is ok because again, there is enough room to not have him all over us. I have to admit I hate riding on the road, its so boring so I probably wont be doing that too often. Problem solved. Thanks guys you have all been very helpful.


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

Hey, do not feel guilty - that's not our intention! You've got some different perspectives to think about and now you've got a plan. We are learning all our lives long! You've got Phoenix's best interests at heart and we all know that from your other posts. She knows you're looking out for her! (PS - I don't believe in reincarnation but if I did, I'd feel lucky to come back as one of your horses....!)


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Ladytrails said:


> Hey, do not feel guilty - that's not our intention! You've got some different perspectives to think about and now you've got a plan. We are learning all our lives long! You've got Phoenix's best interests at heart and we all know that from your other posts. She knows you're looking out for her! (PS - I don't believe in reincarnation but if I did, I'd feel lucky to come back as one of your horses....!)


That is such a lovely thing to say Ladytrails, thank you. You know what, secretly I have always thought if I was going to be reincarnated I would like to come back as my own cat! You should see my two spoiled boys lol.


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