# Is she collected?



## Bugs Bunny (Jun 8, 2011)

To be honest, I don't truly understand this whole "collection" thing. I've been riding for four years now so I suppose I should by now 

Like most instructors, my instructor is always telling me to, "Engage the hindquarters" and to "Get her head down" etc etc. I've never really spoken up and asked why or what it meant to be honest. Guess that's a little stupid of me...

So really what IS collection and why do we use it? How can you tell if a horse is engaged in the hindquarters or on the forehand?

I've attached some pictures I would GREATLY appreciate if you told me where Bunny was/was not collected.

Thank you!


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Your 2nd and 3rd pictures are good examples of collected and not-collected. In the 2nd one, you can see that Bunny 's back is rounded and her rear leg is extended as much as her front leg in the trot.

Looking at the 3rd, photo, she's moved her weight onto her forehand. Her neck is raised and braced, the muscles along the bottom of the neck are much stiffer (the horse should be using much more of the top muscles when properly carrying herself) and the back has hollowed. You can also see that she hasn't followed through with the rear leg as much as she did in the previous photo because she's not pushing from behind anymore.

(This probably isn't a complete definition, but I'll give it a try anyway) When a horse is "collected" it basically means they are carrying more weight in their hindquarters, which allows them to more freely move their front half around with better balance.

Collection is definitely something that takes a long time to achieve and "feel". I'm getting better at it myself, but have a long way to go for sure!


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## Bugs Bunny (Jun 8, 2011)

verona1016 said:


> Your 2nd and 3rd pictures are good examples of collected and not-collected. In the 2nd one, you can see that Bunny 's back is rounded and her rear leg is extended as much as her front leg in the trot.
> 
> Looking at the 3rd, photo, she's moved her weight onto her forehand. Her neck is raised and braced, the muscles along the bottom of the neck are much stiffer (the horse should be using much more of the top muscles when properly carrying herself) and the back has hollowed. You can also see that she hasn't followed through with the rear leg as much as she did in the previous photo because she's not pushing from behind anymore.
> 
> ...


Thank you!  It obviously creates a prettier picture, but honestly it still confuses me a bit :lol: I'll have to talk to my instructor at my next lesson. She's usually really good about, "Sizing things down" if you know what I mean :wink:


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Bunny

First of all don't feel silly for asking.
Secondly you are getting there and that horse is trying for you that's clear.
As Verona said except I would add the following.

Firstly in picture 2 you can see the impact of your own balance or picture on the horse as it moves into picture 3 etc. Your shoulders are tensed, your back has rounded and begun to brace. It looks like you lost a little balance then tried to lean back to correct but maintaining the pressure on the reins meant the horse reacted too. Though the back of the horse is coming up, it is still heavily on the forehand, and the wither and hip are not changing angle.

That is not criticism, but just to explain how the rider and horse, and the resultant energy need to form a trinity of balance.

When a horse collects, imagine a ruler. Mark the ends on a piece of paper. Now bend the ruler so that it is higher in the middle. That is the horses back as it lifts. Then mark the ends whilst bent. The length will be shorter because of the bend. The horse is the same, when engaged they shorten. As you can imagine anything we do that moves the middle of the bend, or the balance point will affect the horses ability to collect.
I hope that maybe helps a little at least.


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## Bugs Bunny (Jun 8, 2011)

Doe said:


> Bunny
> 
> First of all don't feel silly for asking.
> Secondly you are getting there and that horse is trying for you that's clear.
> ...


I'm a very visual person and I tried the ruler thing, it totally worked  Helped me a lot! Thank you!


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## Gidget (Jan 19, 2010)

Your horse should be using his hind end. My horse doesn't but we are working on it also. You are getting there. You NEVER want to force a horse to put it's head down. Thats false collection.

I will show you a visual of a well collected horse verses one that was forced with a head set but hollowing it's back and not useing his hind end.

Here is the correct head set.









Incorrect headset..this horse will have an over worked muscle in it's neck and will travel with a hollow back and not use it's hind end. Doesn't look too comfortable!











The hyperflexion is called rolkur...I'm not sure if if thats spelled correctly.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Collection is one of those difficult terms that is used differently by different horseman and different disciplines. 

Some horseman use the term collection somewhat loosely to mean a horse the is moving off their hind end, rounding up through the back and actively seeking contact. 

While I recognize and accept that definition, I prefer the narrower, stricter, dressage definition of a horse that is all of the above things, but has also has an elevated ribcage, increased flexion in the joints of the hind limbs and appears to be traveling uphill as his hindquarters are lowered relative to the forequarters. 

I don't think too many people would disagree that the second photo shows your horse moving and using himself much better than the other photos, however, I would call that on the aids, on the bit or _connected, _NOT collected. 

However, it is mostly dressage riders who make that distinction.


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## Bugs Bunny (Jun 8, 2011)

Gidget said:


> Your horse should be using his hind end. My horse doesn't but we are working on it also. You are getting there. You NEVER want to force a horse to put it's head down. Thats false collection.
> 
> I will show you a visual of a well collected horse verses one that was forced with a head set but hollowing it's back and not useing his hind end.
> 
> ...


I do know what rollkur is, it was started by that Anky Van Grunsven person correct? Doesn't look very comfortable. :shock:



maura said:


> Collection is one of those difficult terms that is used differently by different horseman and different disciplines.
> 
> Some horseman use the term collection somewhat loosely to mean a horse the is moving off their hind end, rounding up through the back and actively seeking contact.
> 
> ...


I could see that there would be some different opinions on this topic :wink:

I agree, I don't think in any of the photos do I look like an amazing dressage rider by any means.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Bugs Bunny said:


> I do know what rollkur is, it was started by that Anky Van Grunsven person correct? Doesn't look very comfortable. :shock:


I am no fan of Anky but lets get the facts straight...Rollkur was NOT started by Anky as it was around for a l*ong long time* before it became attached to her training.


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## Bugs Bunny (Jun 8, 2011)

Spyder said:


> I am no fan of Anky but lets get the facts straight...Rollkur was NOT started by Anky as it was around for a l*ong long time* before it became attached to her training.


Oh sorry, I didn't know that! I actually thought she created it or endorsed it.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Gidget said:


> Your horse should be using his hind end. My horse doesn't but we are working on it also. You are getting there. You NEVER want to force a horse to put it's head down. Thats false collection.
> 
> I will show you a visual of a well collected horse verses one that was forced with a head set but hollowing it's back and not useing his hind end.
> 
> ...



Neither of these photos show collection - they show headset. A photo of a horse's head cannot show collection. (As a disclaimer, it can show a few things, but one cannot, IMHO, discern collection.) As for correct headset, it depends on what level and discipline you're looking at - the first photo would be incorrect for Hunters or lower level dressage. I hate equating headset to collection at all - the horse will naturally put its head in the right place when his body is correct. The problem is that people fixate on the headset and think that if the head is right, the body must be right too - which is very incorrect, and the source of a LOT of problems. 
Collection is about the body. The head is the hood ornament in a way. Collection is about harvesting energy and getting the horse rocked back on the hindquarters - the horse will round its body, thus the head will "fall into place."


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Bunny, 

You could lurk at a lot of dressage schooling shows and watch a lot of Intro and Trainling Level tests and not see a lot of moments as good as that second photo. You've done a very nice job with your horse.

My post was in no way intended to be critical; I appreciate and respect that you're asking a good question and asking for clarification about a term that's widely misunderstood or misapplied. 

However, a lot of misunderstanding (and bad riding and training) has been caused by the broad use or misapplication of the term "collection." Just because I pointed out that it's not collection in its strictest sense does not in any way, shape or form mean it's poor riding or training, or inferior to true collection. On the contrary, I would much rather see a horse ridden happily and correctly in the manner your horse is being presented than a horse pulled down into a frame or coerced into false collection.


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## Bugs Bunny (Jun 8, 2011)

JustDressageIt said:


> Neither of these photos show collection - they show headset. A photo of a horse's head cannot show collection. (As a disclaimer, it can show a few things, but one cannot, IMHO, discern collection.) As for correct headset, it depends on what level and discipline you're looking at - the first photo would be incorrect for Hunters or lower level dressage. I hate equating headset to collection at all - the horse will naturally put its head in the right place when his body is correct. The problem is that people fixate on the headset and think that if the head is right, the body must be right too - which is very incorrect, and the source of a LOT of problems.
> Collection is about the body. The head is the hood ornament in a way. Collection is about harvesting energy and getting the horse rocked back on the hindquarters - the horse will round its body, thus the head will "fall into place."


That makes a lot of sense! I used to think collection was just about the headset, so I'm happy to know I was wrong :wink:



maura said:


> Bunny,
> 
> You could lurk at a lot of dressage schooling shows and watch a lot of Intor and Trainling Level tests and not see a lot of moments as good as that second photo. You've done a very nice job with your horse.
> 
> ...


Oh, I didn't think it was being critical! :wink: I totally appreciate the opinions and facts everyone is giving me, I am totally 100% fine with what you previously told me!

I'm starting to understand collection a bit more now  I can also see it is a bit of a controversial subject and many people will give different opinions :wink:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I'm not gonna go into "collected" part (because I'm not knowledgeable enough), but on 2nd pic your horse looks nice and round. I do agree with maura - not too many riders in Intro and Training level do it that well. Definitely something to be proud of.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

The trainer that was one of the first big advocate of the rollkur was François Baucher (1796-1873). Anky was one of the most successful competitors who OPENLY advocated its use in the modern world.


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## Gidget (Jan 19, 2010)

JustDressageIt said:


> Neither of these photos show collection - they show headset. A photo of a horse's head cannot show collection. (As a disclaimer, it can show a few things, but one cannot, IMHO, discern collection.) As for correct headset, it depends on what level and discipline you're looking at - the first photo would be incorrect for Hunters or lower level dressage. I hate equating headset to collection at all - the horse will naturally put its head in the right place when his body is correct. The problem is that people fixate on the headset and think that if the head is right, the body must be right too - which is very incorrect, and the source of a LOT of problems.
> Collection is about the body. The head is the hood ornament in a way. Collection is about harvesting energy and getting the horse rocked back on the hindquarters - the horse will round its body, thus the head will "fall into place."


 
Oops,I meant to show collection!..I totally forgot what I typed while looking at collection and came across these photos. I was going to show some videos but couldn't find any ones that were really good....my bad


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## Bugs Bunny (Jun 8, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> I'm not gonna go into "collected" part (because I'm not knowledgeable enough), but on 2nd pic your horse looks nice and round. I do agree with maura - not too many riders in Intro and Training level do it that well. Definitely something to be proud of.


Thank you  I'm not an avid dressage rider, (I of course use the basis of it but I don't primarily compete in it etc) so that means a lot 



Allison Finch said:


> The trainer that was one of the first big advocate of the rollkur was François Baucher (1796-1873). Anky was one of the most successful competitors who OPENLY advocated its use in the modern world.


I know this is getting a bit off topic, but didn't her husband help out too? :think:


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

BB - Yes, Sjef Janssen is Anky's coach as well as husband.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Bugs, it's too bad you only dabble with dressage. You and your horse look like you could do quite well and you show real promise. 

You are right when you say that using dressage can be beneficial on most aspects of riding.


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## Bugs Bunny (Jun 8, 2011)

Kayty said:


> BB - Yes, Sjef Janssen is Anky's coach as well as husband.


Good, I knew something for once :lol:



Allison Finch said:


> Bugs, it's too bad you only dabble with dressage. You and your horse look like you could do quite well and you show real promise.
> 
> You are right when you say that using dressage can be beneficial on most aspects of riding.


Thank you  My instructor has been asking if I want to do an intro test, but I've never gotten around to it. I think I just might next show season


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

In looking at your pictures your horse is not truly collected in any of them.. with the second image showing the closest thing to collection you have here.

In the Third picture, look at the horse's feet. Notice the hind feet are not on the ground and thleft front is solidly on the ground. This is the trot. It is a bi-lateral gait with amoment of suspension and a collected horse that is working off his hind quarters (or an extended horse working off his hind quarters) will have feet evenly weighted (not flying off the ground like this horse) OR will have the front feet not on the ground while one hind is. The horse is restricted by the bit but is on his forehand and not truly collected. 

In the last photo, again, the horse is on his forehand. You can actually see him working 'down hill.'

When you are off the horse and standing there, is your horse built "down hill?" This means.. are his withers lower than the top of his croup? If so, you are going to have difficulty getting her to work off her hind quarters. It is harder because she is not built to do it easily. Can you get there? Yes, but it is going to take a lot of effort. 

If I were you I would lower my stirrups a hole (on the flat) and learn to sit up straighter (not leaning back) and shift your weight a little to the rear. Raise your hands a bit and gently squezze your horse into a trot. SIT the trot sitting up STRAIGHT and squeeze your horse up into your hands with your legs and Seat (sort of like squeezing your butt cheeks LOL) then give a GENTLE half halt.. like squeezing the water out of a sponge and then release and repeat... and see if you do not actually FEEL your horse lift in front (it is amazing the first time it happens). 

Essentially you are pushing your horse forward INTO your hands and then gently resisting.. the energy has to go somewhere so it goes into lightening the forehand and engaging the hind quarters. 

Do NOT worrry about head set at this point. That will come with time..

To help your horse build muscle on her underline (so he can lengthen his top line and build muscle to drive from behind) get out of the ring and trot up hills (nice long trot with a long rein so the horse can stretch foreward and down and drive up the hill). Also, get out the caveletti and trot over poles.


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## Bugs Bunny (Jun 8, 2011)

Elana said:


> In looking at your pictures your horse is not truly collected in any of them.. with the second image showing the closest thing to collection you have here.
> 
> In the Third picture, look at the horse's feet. Notice the hind feet are not on the ground and thleft front is solidly on the ground. This is the trot. It is a bi-lateral gait with amoment of suspension and a collected horse that is working off his hind quarters (or an extended horse working off his hind quarters) will have feet evenly weighted (not flying off the ground like this horse) OR will have the front feet not on the ground while one hind is. The horse is restricted by the bit but is on his forehand and not truly collected.
> 
> ...


This is super helpful, thank you! I'll be sure to try it 

And no, she is not built downhill actually. To be honest, when I checked last time she was completely even. :shock:


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## SeeingSpots (May 29, 2011)

Your horse is NOT collected....um yeah I don't know any other way to put it... but she is definatly NOT collected in any way in any of your pictures, she is slightly collected in the second photo but not truly collected :/


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Even is better than rump high but not as good as rump slightly lower than withers. It is easier to get an "uphill" horse to work off her hind quarters. 

My first real trainign project horse I was 14 years old. She was a barely broke 3 year old Appaloosa. Built with mutton withers and rump almost a full hand higher than her front. VERY hard to collect because her fornt feet barely touched the ground if she worked off her rear end. She learned to collect and bend her hocks but it was hard for her. She was not upper level dressage at all.. but she got to the point where she was a decent low level equitation over fences horse. 

Where she really showed up was as a field hunter. By then she knew how to collect and extend and she never stopped. A WONDERFUL field hunter. 

You will get there with your horse. You will know it when she is light in front and you can actually hold her lightly between your legs and your hands. 

Sit up STRAIGHT and get YOUR weight back.. curl your butt under you and use legs and seat to drive her forward.. and then lift her with your hands. The first time she comes up into your hands and shifts her weight back you will feel it. Usually this is the first time you get a wonderful smooth transition from a walk to a canter (it is the easiest time for your horse to do this). It won't last but a stride or two.. but when you feel it happen you will know what I mean.


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