# Bad experience with Amish horses...



## Feets

Horses I primarily own/work with are rescues in need of serious repair (usually mentally as well as physically). I've worked with several horses that came from the Amish and have been absolutely terrified of people... Once, I was leaving an auction and I observed three or four Amish men attempting to load a weanling. It wouldn't get in, so they proceeded to beat the crap out of its behind with a stiff whip... I was disgusted.

All the Amish-broke horses I've worked with have the same eye, and the same attitude. They are reluctant, wary, and stressed the entire time I'm around them. A lot of the drafts that didn't make it as cart horses (I'm assuming) won't let you go anywhere near their rump, and God FORBID you swing anything back there (be it intentional or not). My experience is that they break their spirits, THEN they break them to ride. They may not all be this way, but the ones I've dealt with have been.

There's only one horse that wasn't like this: A big Belgian named Mac. He was pigeon-toed from pulling before he was fully grown, and he had terrible ground manners, but he was such a derp that he probably didn't care whether he was being mistreated or not.

I understand that horses are very important to the Amish way of life, and they are vital 'tools' to their lifestyle... but seriously, I'm sick of these abused horses with broken spirits (which take forever to mend, mind you, if they are fixable at all).

My question is this: has anyone had similar experiences?


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## Kiki

hmmmm this is interesting. To answer your question, no I havent but I am aware that they feel the horse is a big part of their life. 
Not that I am trying to condone their behavior but if you think, they are set in what the 1800's? and if you think of how everyone would have treated their horses in the 1800's their behavior would be typical....
Its just a thought


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## Alwaysbehind

No.

The horses I know that were Amish trained are good reliable creatures. No broken spirits, etc.
I actually had my first ever driving lesson last night using a pony whose previous job was with an Amish family.



> He was pigeon-toed from pulling before he was fully grown
> ​




Or he was pigeon toed because that was what his conformation was and he would have been pigeon toed if he never did anything but stand in a pasture.


I will never get why so many people assume that everything that is different with a horse is the fault of some evil action on some abusers part.


Just because the Amish do not treat their horses like huge expensive pets like we do does not mean they (general they, because we all know there are bad people in every sector) are abusive asshats. Their horses are a necessary tool. It behooves them to take care of them. 


​


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## Mingiz

*Just because the Amish do not treat their horses like huge expensive pets like we do does not mean they (general they, because we all know there are bad people in every sector) are abusive asshats. Their horses are a necessary tool. It behooves them to take care of them*



I agree totally
The amish around here treat there horses ok. No they don't get nice plush sawdust stalls and baths etc. But they are taken care of. The horse to the amish are thier main tool. Some take better care of thier tools than others. I have seen different areas of Amish living and you have the lesser and the better off. It reflects in thier houses,buggies,harness and horses... It's people that have no respect for animals period that abuse them...Wether Amish,Mendonite or us..:wink:


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## Feets

Alwaysbehind said:


> Or he was pigeon toed because that was what his conformation was and he would have been pigeon toed if he never did anything but stand in a pasture.
> 
> I will never get why so many people assume that everything that is different with a horse is the fault of some evil action on some abusers part.


Erm, no, that's not what I assume. That's what I was told by the person who got him from the Amish.

I don't assume they're all like that. Definitely not. But every horse I've dealt with (probably because I primarily deal with rescues) that has been Amish-trained has been wary of people. I just can't get what I saw with the weanling out of my head whenever I think "Amish," but I try my best not to think all of them are like that...


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## Shenandoah

"The Amish" are individuals just as all other trainers are individuals.
I've seen good and bad - whether Amish or not.

As far as my experience specifically, my current boy spent a while learning to drive under the Amish, and he most definitely has NOT had his spirit broken any. He has the most "personality" of any horse I've owned. He's also one of the friendliest horses I've ever known - always coming up to you, checking you out. Thinks EVERYONE wants to be his best friend - whether human, horse, deer, or skunk (yeah, the smell is finally gone :lol.

On the other hand, I was at the auction a few weeks ago, and a little mini was there being sold by the Amish. For a few hours before the auction right up until its sale, it spent almost the whole time trotting around the arena pulling a large cart with several children. He was puffing, dripping sweat, pinning his ears, and never got a drink of water. The ONLY time he got to stop trotting was when someone walked up to ask them a question about the horse (the few of us there together were going to start a round, have each of us go up and ask a few questions - just to give the poor thing a break). When someone mentioned that they should probably give him a rest, they responded "Oh no, we do this all the time. He's fine."
That horse probably isn't going to trust people for a while. I hope he found a good new home (we were really tempted to bring him home ourselves, but didn't think our BO would go for it :lol.

But the bottom line is, there will always be trainers who treat horses well, and there will always be trainers who treat horses poorly. Culture, religion, ethnicity, gender, etc don't determine whether someone will be a good or poor trainer. Training, knowledge, and understanding of horses does.


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## Alwaysbehind

Shenandoah said:


> But the bottom line is, there will always be trainers who treat horses well, and there will always be trainers who treat horses poorly. Culture, religion, ethnicity, gender, etc don't determine whether someone will be a good or poor trainer. Training, knowledge, and understanding of horses does.


Very well said!


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## ShutUpJoe

Annalie was Amish trained. She's a wonderful horse. Definitely never had a person beat her. I think some Amish are good with horses while others aren't.


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## Scoutrider

There are some Amish in my area, but I have never personally dealt with any or any strictly Amish trained horses. I do know people who swear by Amish farriers, leatherworkers, and trainers. Its not unheard of for someone to send a green horse to the Amish to be saddle-broke, and then take care of subsequent training themselves.

While there are certainly cases of poor treatment of Amish horses (not that this makes them "special"... horses are mistreated every day by non-Amish), there is a strong economic motivator for the Amish to take care of their horses and to keep them healthy and strong. Their livelihood depends on "horsepower" in many cases - it just isn't logical to destroy something that essential. To draw a parallel, it would be like a non-Amish person going out to the garage and purposely ramming the family minivan into the wall a few times. Will it be as reliable? No... you might not get to work in the morning. 

No, working Amish horses are not pets - they have to earn a living. If they don't, it's a waste. Coming from a farm background myself, I learned early that unproductive livestock that must be supported rather than contributing to the farm don't stay around long, my horses being the major exception. Again, to draw a parallel, its the same as if a pizza delivery company has a fleet of 5 cars, only uses 2, yet legally must pay insurance on the 3 idle cars. Its probably more profitable to sell the 3 idle cars and not have to pay for their isurance and upkeep. 

Going back to the question of ninteenth century horsekeeping practices, at that time horsepower was supreme, and most horses did not have the luxurious lifestyles that most enjoy today. Then, as now, there were brutal and benevolent owners, riders, drivers, and grooms, but the horses still had a task that they were expected to perform. If they didn't, the owner effectively threw money out the window - something that the average person could not afford. 

The working lifestyle was evident in the shorter useful lifespan of horses. Not too long ago, a 13 year old horse was considered to be nearing the end of his productive life - a 30 year old was quite ancient. Now, horses perform beautifully well into their 20's, and the 30 year mark is becoming less novel. The same extension in life expectancy can be seen in humans as we have moved from a lifetime of hard farm labor to a majority (in developed countries, anyway) holding less physically demanding jobs. Modern medical care plays a role for both as well, no need to discount that. :wink:

I'm not condoning ill-treatment by anyone, and sorry for the novel, but this is an issue that I have devoted some thought to in the past, from the perspectives of economics, history, and horsemanship. The Amish livelihood depends upon the horse as a capital good: a means of production - even under the best of care, such use has an effect that is generally not seen in recreational horses.


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## Speed Racer

Excellent post, Scoutrider. Very eloquent and succinct.


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## NicoleB

I sent my first horse to an Amish man to be broke, and that was the biggest mistake I've ever made. I have a five year old gelding and at the time he was two. We took him there in the summer and I would go back to visit every week. He was tied in a barn with six inches of poop on the floor. He had to stand there all day with no food or water. The only drink he got was with a bit in his mouth, so he barely got any water. That was what I saw in the first week. The second week I cam and one of the man's sons took him out and got on him and I noticed he wasn't putting any weight on his front right foot. I looked down and saw a six inch long gash on the inside of his front right leg. It was covered in pus and swollen. I was disgusted. I came with a trailer the next day and took my horse home, and when we got him back I noticed he had mange under his man. We had to cut his whole mane off so it would go away. I know a few Amish men who are very good with horses, but the majority are not.


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## Speed Racer

NicoleB said:


> I know a few Amish men who are very good with horses, but the majority are not.


How can you justify this quote? Your experience was with ONE horse and ONE Amish farmer. That's hardly 'the majority'. 

Generalize much? :roll:


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## DubyaS6

WOW...I had no idea that there were so many Amish people!

I guess growing up in Dallas doesnt help my experience with this 

Seriously though, there are good and bad in EVERY realm of the horse world, I agree with most of the posts here.


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## Alwaysbehind

Do not be sorry for your novel, Scout. Terrific post!


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## mls

Speed Racer said:


> How can you justify this quote? Your experience was with ONE horse and ONE Amish farmer. That's hardly 'the majority'.
> 
> Generalize much? :roll:


You beat me to it!

Also NicoleB - how can a horse develope mange in two weeks if it was tied alone in a barn?


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## Alwaysbehind

I do not get why Nicole left her horse there after the first week. If she actually knew that he was dehydrated like she says, I can not imagine leaving my horse there. :?


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## Scoutrider

Speed Racer said:


> Excellent post, Scoutrider. Very eloquent and succinct.





Alwaysbehind said:


> Do not be sorry for your novel, Scout. Terrific post!


Thank you both very much!


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## Speed Racer

mls said:


> Also NicoleB - how can a horse develop mange in two weeks if it was tied alone in a barn?


Exactly. 

I'd also like to know why, if she was aware how HORRIBLY her horse was being treated the first week, she didn't yank him out of there immediately?

If my horse were being mistreated and I knew it, there's no way he'd stay there another DAY, much less another week. 

I've known many Amish and Mennonites in my time. They have lovely, well mannered, well cared for horses, but they're_ not_ pets. They are these peoples' tractors, trucks, and cars. It would make _no_ sense for them to abuse, neglect, or mistreat their animals.

Does abuse happen? I'm certain it does, because I'm sure the Amish have nutters and abusers in their ranks, JUST LIKE THE REST OF THE POPULATION. But to tar and feather a whole group for one small segment is wrong and hateful.


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## NicoleB

You're right Speed Racer, I did have ONE experience with ONE Amish farmer, but I know PLENTY of others who have had the same experience. And by saying that I know a few Amish men who are good with horses, I thought I was un-generalizing. Sorry you misunderstood.


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## mls

NicoleB said:


> Sorry you misunderstood.


If speedracer misunderstood - then so did I.

I see you are in Iowa. Ames has the biggest hitch horse sale in the upper midwest. The amish buy and sell a lot of horses there. I have heard so many amazing stories about them - I really want to go and spend the week observing how wonderful they really are.


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## Speed Racer

NicoleB said:


> Sorry you misunderstood.


I misunderstood nothing. Hearsay is NOT evidence. The only evidence you _personally_ have is your one particular experience and I'm skeptical of even that, considering you supposedly left your horse in the hands of someone you knew was abusive. That does not make you an expert on 'the majority'.


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## DubyaS6

I agree with the people that have said that horses are not a *luxury* for them, they are a *necessity.*

Amish people would only be hurting themselves by mistreating their animals. Common sense would tell me that the *majority* of Amish people would NOT abuse part of their livelihood.

I am sure that there are some that snap and abuse animals just because there are always a few bad apples, but I dont think their way of life would have lasted as long as it has with all of them abusing their horses *shrug*


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## BackInTheSaddleAgain

The (ex) amish drafts I'm around every day are nothing like this. They are unbelievably affectionate. They love people... ESPECIALLY children. The only negatives I've seen is lameness/ stiffness (but that's expected from ex working horses) and they aren't good for the farrier. They are more comfortable when put in stocks as opposed to free standing while getting work done. One of the drafts in my pasture has to be sedated to get farrier work.
Our yearly draft horse auction is full of Amish families that have traveled far with their horses. One family becomes the stars of the show. Their horses have plenty of spirit. The father puts on a show in the ring to demonstrate the connection and loyalty of his horses. You can tell the horses are having a blast with it.
I don't know.... They may not do things as I do, but I understand that if I feel obligated to having my techniques respected, then I must respect the techniques of others.


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## franknbeans

Well, around here, from what I have seen at the sales, there are definitely good and bad. However, I do not think many of them take good basic care. JMHO. There is a tendency toward moonblindness in their horses around here, and their feet are bad, in at least 75% of the cases I have seen. This time of year they come to the sales with manes and tails matted with burrs and poo, and are pretty thin, despite the grass having been good all summer. But, we have more Mennonites than Amish, and I have heard that the care is different between the 2. As with anything, I am sure there is good and bad, just what I have seen.


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## ChevyPrincess

Well, I have never even seen an Amish person, community, anything. But I hear from people they have good- broke horses. But I agree that it doesn't make sense to make something so weak or abuse it that you can't use it for work (which is what they use them for). No, their horses don't get pampered, but they do rely on them for daily tasks. Tasks that need to be done to make a living. 

With that being said, most of the rescued horses in facilities come from homes with lack of basic care, feed, water, shelter and clean pen, and some people call it 'abuse' becuase the horse won't let you touch it's ears, but how about just skittish or flytiey from not being messed with much? Not just one 'race' does this, we all do. Especially now since the economy is so bad.


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## NicoleB

The first week I visited I was not aware that that is where he was staying full time. And he was not alone in the barn. There were several other horses, and at the time I was about twelve years old. Not a lot I could do about it. Like I said, I was NOT trying to generalize. That was my experience. And when I said a few are good, but the majority are not; obviously that was from my experience and experiences of people I know. Which means in my immediate area. If I thought the every single Amish horseman in the world was bad I would have said that.


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## corinowalk

I love the amish. In my area, we have some great amish horsemen. They take very good care of their horses and are excellent trainers. In my area, if you are looking to get a horse green broke in 30 days...you would send them to the amish. They wouldn't be able to teach a horse advanced reining manuvers or dressage...but they don't use that in their daily life. But if you want a horse to have a good solid walk, trot, canter, back and move off leg pressure...the amish are the best. I would absolutly send my horse to the amish for training. I was seriously considering sending my QH off for cart training with a nice amish boy when I was forced to sell him. For $600 that buys you all the time it takes to get him buggy trained (up to 90 days!) feed and board for that time aaaand a harness! What a bargain! 

It has been mentioned on here before because this is not the first controversial amish thread. Saying that the Amish are abusive because there are a few bad eggs is like saying all Catholic priests molest children. It is an unfair statement.


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## VelvetsAB

_My grandparents prefer that their Standardbreds that are not fast enough for the track go to our local Amish or Mennonites. They treat their horses well around us, and they seem fit and happy. Yes, I am sure that some aren't treated as well, but I bet not everyone in the horse owner world treats their horses like they are pets. Every group of animal lovers is going to see someone who doesn't fit into their perception of how animals should be treated. _

_We have had a Amish guy previously and currently use a Mennonite guy to shoe our horses. Grandpa, Grandma and I like him better because he comes, shoes the horses, and is done with it. He doesn't take crap from the colts, but he doesn't beat them. A very stern hey now! normally gets their attention and they stand up. The farrier we used to get, we never trusted to leave alone because he would hit the horse with his tools. He was just a regular Joe. _


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## twogeldings

I've met some very happy, very spunky Amish horses and some very 'dead to the world' ones.

Just like us 'regular people' not every Amish person is a great trainer, and some may even treat there horses in an old-world kind of way. All depends. I personally like the Amish in my area, the horses all look quite happy and their always polite and friendly. Even when I come with my silly questions like "Excuse me sir, but do you know where I could possibly buy the stuff that goes under the buggy? The metal doohickeys?"
"The running gear?"
"Yeah that! "


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## Alwaysbehind

twogeldings said:


> I've met some very happy, very spunky Amish horses and some very 'dead to the world' ones.


Sounds statistically like any other random group of horses.....


Giggle, love the running gear thing.


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## ErikaLynn

I had a horse that used to be an Amish cart horse. She was the best horse ever once I put some time into her, she would kick when I put the saddle on her and she didnt like her ears touched..and when I first got her she would break cross ties right and left. But I don't know if she acted like that because of her Amish owners, or another owner. I do know she wasn't treated nicely before I got her. (She kind of had the Black Beauty life) But I think the majority of the Amish treat their horses for what they use them for...and that's work. And I'm sure working for the Amish is not easy.


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## ilyTango

I know a lot of good Mennonites, and though I've never personally seen any bad ones, I've heard many "horror stories". All my dad's horses have come from the Mennonites, and though they are a bit too high-strung and spooky for my liking (likely not the trainer's fault), they are all well-trained, and they all know what's expected of them in harness.

The thing with Mennonites/Amish is you rarely hear the good stuff-you only hear the bad. Everyone is so much more eager to say: "The Amish are terrible people! They abused my horse; now I can't get behind her or harness her or touch her face!" than: "I sent my horse to the Mennonites for training, and she came back with a good foundation and with a good start."

From my experience, they are a little rougher than the average person would be-just because to them (and should be, to us) horses are a tool, not a precious china doll that might get hurt or spooked, and they don't pussyfoot around them. If you can find the right trainer, the Amish are the guys to send your horse to for training.


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## SaddleDragon

I have a mare like that. She was very nervous about everything. The amish horses Ive seen have all been nervous. No maybe theyre not mistreating it, but if you are overbearing and short with them, they become afraid. Patience is the #1 thing in training and I find thats all the amish trained horses need. They dont treat them like they have a brain they just 'cowboy' them. Some horses are ok with that, some are not.


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## corinowalk

One more thing.

Horses that act scared, nervous, anxious, hyper, out of control after being trained by the amish are not always responding to abuse. They are responding to lack of work. One thing for certain, the Amish work their horses. Lots. When they are found to be lacking for one reason or another, the Amish usually take them to the auction. You take em home and love em up right and give them stall rest and feed them more than they need and 3 weeks later finally get on them and they are ready to blow! Its not because they were terribly abused or neglected...its because they are used to work and haven't had it in a month. Our society makes us look for abuse when it is not there. Work is not abuse.


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## Speed Racer

Thank you, Cori. Excellent points.


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## ilyTango

corinowalk said:


> One more thing.
> 
> Horses that act scared, nervous, anxious, hyper, out of control after being trained by the amish are not always responding to abuse. They are responding to lack of work. One thing for certain, the Amish work their horses. Lots. When they are found to be lacking for one reason or another, the Amish usually take them to the auction. You take em home and love em up right and give them stall rest and feed them more than they need and 3 weeks later finally get on them and they are ready to blow! Its not because they were terribly abused or neglected...its because they are used to work and haven't had it in a month. Our society makes us look for abuse when it is not there. Work is not abuse.


Yes yes yes. Great point. My dad's horses need worked HARD, or they go absolutely nuts.


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## Feets

Well-written, Scout!

I try my best not to think that all of the Amish are abusive... but I can only base my opinion on my experiences (which is why I wanted to have others share their opinions and experiences with me, hence the post).

I guess they only have so much time to train the horses because they do NEED them. It's just so baffling that all my "amish-broke" horses have always had these characteristics:

- Difficult to catch
- Head shy
- Nervous, wary

Looking back at Nicole's post, however, I've never had a horse from them that fit the negligence bill.. i.e., skinny, unhealthy, etc.


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## Snookeys

Consider the fact the Amish need their horses as soon as possible for use, and therefor skip over some of the things you or I would consider 'basics'. It takes a lot of time to make a good riding horse, but the Ames don't really need those as much as they need good carriage horses and plow horses. They will neither abuse nor hurt the horse intentionally because then it will be useless to them. Kind of like getting in a car wreck... you'd never do it on purpose, because you really need that car, don't you? Sure you've put some miles on it, maybe not always driven it the way you were supposed to, but the car is meant to work for you.

The horses you got were probably reject work horses that the Amish tried to make work, but couldn't, which is why they were sold. In the end, they won't keep the horses they can't use.


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## ilyTango

What's up with the new account, Feets (Snookeys)?. That is, if it is you. I'm pretty sure I saw that picture (of your horse) in your Feets horse profile thingy.


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## Alwaysbehind

Wonderful point, Corino. I think way too many people forget that not working and feeding lots can lead to stress type reactions.

Ily, did you alert the mods, so they can see if they are the same person?


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## Snookeys

Nope, not the same person haha. i went to their profile to see what you were talking about but there are no horse profiles... maybe it was a lookalike? or they deleted them...? was it my profile picture of the sorrel trotting? weird...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JekkaLynn

Feets said:


> Erm, no, that's not what I assume. That's what I was told by the person who got him from the Amish.



Okay, its just MHO but how would the person you got him from now? Do you honestly think anyone selling a horse would say, "Yah, those pigeon toes are from me working him to young?" The person you got him from could just have assumed that. If you didn't actually see them working the horse too young then you can't really say.
And how would pulling to young cause pigeon toes? I could see it causeing lamness or a bad back but I can't think how it could cause pigeon toes. I'm not saying it can't happen I've just never heard of that and don't get how it would happen.


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## Alwaysbehind

Jekka, stop with all that logic!


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## JekkaLynn

Awwww....*pouts* do I have to?


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## Speed Racer

JekkaLynn said:


> Awwww....*pouts* do I have to?


Yes, yes you do young lady! How dare you use logic and make sense?! :-o


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## JekkaLynn

I'm pregnant, I have been grounded by the doctors, no riding and no handling my horse alone because I've been having fainting fits. I'm not even allowed to take my dogs for a walk around town because if I pass out I might crack my head on the pavement. I have to do something to relieve the bordom!


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## Alwaysbehind

Oh my! I can totally see going stir crazy with those restrictions.


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## NinthHeroine

The Amish are great people 

I pretty much agree with what's been already said; there's a lot of stereotypes. I used to live in Iowa, and we had horses that had been Amish trained. It's like any trainer, really. If you think about it the non Amish (or "english" as they call us) trainers can have a worse reputation. We have fabulous trainers, and a ton of them that really stink. Same in the Amish world. It all depends on the individual.

We had one Amish horse that we got at the barn who was scarred and slightly underweight, and yes, it was due to the Amish, but he was a very nice horse and pretty good to work with. It's a little sad that with this one particular gelding, his owners did beat him a bit, but then again, I've seen some brilliant Amish trainers. And former carriage horses make talented dressage prospects. 

One misconception is that Amish are modern day like us except they only wear black/dark colours. The Amish are still practicing their 1800's ways, and horses to them are horses. Animals. It's not a thing to be sad about or anything; a majority of the Amish give their horses a good life. It's just that horses in their world are not thought about the same way they are to us. Just like we have a different perspective animals here than other countries. For example, hogs. Here we just tend to think "bacon" (but haha, there are a lot of PETA people I guess xD), but when we think of hogs as Americans we just think of smelly farm animals. In China, they love their pigs. It's a sign of prosperity, wealth, and happiness. 
Or cows. In India, it's against the law to hurt a cow, because they're scared animals and allowed to roam wherever they want.

Amish think of horses as horses, and treat them according to such. That doesn't mean they abuse them.


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## Feets

Wow, just wow.

Look, the lady told me she'd had him since he was two, and they'd been using him to prior to that. He was severely pigeon-toed, and the man had told her he'd grown to be that way, so it may be fixable since he wasn't born that way. In fact, with corrective trimming, his pigeon-toes were far less severe than when we got him. I really shouldn't have to explain that. Are you telling me I shouldn't listen to the person that previously owned the horse? That seems kind of ... illogical.

And you're right, there's no way she could know for sure that that's what caused it, but the guy said he wasn't born that way and it's our best guess. I don't know how pulling could cause toe-ins, but I know that deformations are possible when horses are worked too young.

Have some faith. I'm not a complete idiot, I wouldn't think of you as such, but you guys seem to totally be missing the point of this thread. I'm trying to lift the stereotype that's formed in my own mind from my experiences, by learning about OTHER peoples' experiences.


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## potterspoet

One of the horses that I ride was trained by the Amish. He is the sweetest horse in the world. He has some issues, sure, and is not the biggest fan of people messing with his feet, but nothing that I would attribute to the Amish. In many ways, I would think that the Amish are great at training horses. They have to be. It's a matter of livelihood.


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## Solon

Had similar experience. I was pretty shocked at seeing how various groups treated their horses. I'm not talking about that they don't fawn over them or treat them as pets. I'm talking about beating the crap out of them if they don't move fast enough, move wrong or otherwise 'misbehave'.

If it had been a one time experience I'd have taken it as a group of idiots. However, after seeing it more than once, I'd have to question their level of discipline of the horses and what they think is acceptable.


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## smrobs

My experience with the Amish has been limited to those that live in Kansas around the Kingman area. Those I know are very good to their horses, they are kept healthy (I won't say fat because they get all the fat worked off of them much like a racehorse), their feet are okay- not pretty necessarily but functional, they aren't terrorized and I have never seen one of them hit a horse excessively, let alone beat one. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a driving team or buggy horse from one of them. I wouldn't buy a riding horse because I like to train my own but that's beside the point. There are bad apples in every barrel and to judge an entire group of people based on the bad ones is naive. In my time spent working in a prison, 75% of the older white men we had come through were in prison for molesting a child. Does that make all older white men bad?


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## Solon

I had initially heard well of them - that they weren't aggressive with their horses. A few people encouraged me to send Solon to a group when I first got him. Then I saw what was going on and swore I'd never send him or any horse to them ever. Are they all bad? Probably not. I'm not taking the chance though.


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## smrobs

Maybe I'm just lucky that the ones I know are all really good people with their horses.


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## Solon

I think so. The ones in Oregon (won't name the specific area to protect the stupid) could learn from the ones you know.


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## KDeHaven42

First of all, I only read till about page 4 before I posted a response so I apologize if this is redundant.

I'm from Lancaster, PA. We have a huge tourist market here, almost entirely because of the Amish (the outlet shopping and pretty scenery don't hurt either). So I interact with them a lot, from simply passing on the streets to my favorite leather master who repairs all my tack FLAWLESSLY. My BO uses a local amish man as a farrier and to castrate some of his horses that aren't making it as studs, a previous barn I was at had a whole stable collapse during our blizzards last winter and hired the amish to rebuild. I have met these and many other Amish that are fantastic horsemen

I've also seen terrible episodes in the opposite. Horses that are beaten into a frenzy or overworked even after they come up lame and end up with terrible injuries. Horses pulling buggies and full speed with sweat pouring off of them and bloody sides/legs from ill fitting harness tack. Just like everyone else in the horse world, there are good and bad. All that has been said before but I noticed one main point that has been overlooked:

_*You are a horse person by choice. *_You chose to learn about these wonderful creatures and do the best you can by them. The Amish are horse people by force of nature. They don't have a lot of options. If you picked up joe schmo off the street he may hate or be afraid of horses, he may not know the first thing about handling them or care to research it. But if Joe Schmo is Amish (and there fore, probably Joe Stoltzfus ) he is going to have to do something with them anyway and chances are he won't be the best horseman._* If everyone in the world had to rely on horses for their business and travel, there would be far more bad horsemen. *_I can think of many people I'd never want to see working with horses, but if they were Amish, what other choice do they really have?

I do not condone the bad that people do to their animals, Amish or otherwise, but it has to be expected that in a culture where horses are constantly being used, that there will be more abused horses than in a culture where the use of horses are optional.


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## ilyTango

KDeHaven42 said:


> _*You are a horse person by choice. *_You chose to learn about these wonderful creatures and do the best you can by them. The Amish are horse people by force of nature. They don't have a lot of options. If you picked up joe schmo off the street he may hate or be afraid of horses, he may not know the first thing about handling them or care to research it. But if Joe Schmo is Amish (and there fore, probably Joe Stoltzfus ) he is going to have to do something with them anyway and chances are he won't be the best horseman._* If everyone in the world had to rely on horses for their business and travel, there would be far more bad horsemen. *_I can think of many people I'd never want to see working with horses, but if they were Amish, what other choice do they really have?


:clap:


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## TeeBee

"Joe Stoltzfus"! LOL! :rofl:


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## Solon

KDeHaven42 said:


> I can think of many people I'd never want to see working with horses, but if they were Amish, what other choice do they really have?
> 
> I do not condone the bad that people do to their animals, Amish or otherwise, but it has to be expected that in a culture where horses are constantly being used, that there will be more abused horses than in a culture where the use of horses are optional.


I don't agree with this *at all*. Most normal people grow up understanding you don't go beating an animal. They most certainly do have a choice. They can strive to learn about the horses in their charges like everyone else has had to do.

Just because they don't have horses as pets or companions doesn't give them liberty or excuse to not handle them correctly. 

Cowboys *constantly* use their horses for ranch work. Just because a horse is used constantly by a particular group doesn't mean there should be more possibility for abuse. You don't have to be excessive in disciplining any animal even if you know nothing of how to be around that animal. That's ridiculous.


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## KDeHaven42

I think you may have taken that in a way that it wasn't intended. I agree that abuse is inexcusable. I'm just saying they probability of having someone who will do that is increased when everyone in the culture works around and with animals. Although the cowboys do use horses around the ranch on the daily, its a whole lot easier to be a ranch hand's son who wants to be a banker or a lawyer or a doctor (or any job that doesn't work directly with horses and other animals) then it is to be an amishman's son who wants to be a race car driver. They do have a period of time where they can choose to continue Amish ways or leave the culture. If they leave, their family shuns them, pretends to not even recognize them on the street. I don't think thats the way the cowboys work...

If dad mistreated his horse then most of his 10 kids will think thats ok too, in the same terrible pattern of how racism and sexism is passed down to kids. If people are angry people who feel their livelihood is being compromised they also sometimes incorrectly abuse their animals.

And for the record most people do know that animal abuse is wrong, but millions to billions of incidents happen every year. Everyone knows its wrong to kill people too but guess what? happens way too often. No everyone gives a rats behind whether something is moral or not. unfortunate but true.


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## AmberPick

My aunt will only send her horses to the Amish. Where are you located? I'm from a rural part of Wisconsin that is filled with Amish & Mennenites (I cannot spell, obviously). Her gelding, Stumpy, was having a pretty rough time training and was very skiddish about getting out of the pasture (his dam had recently died and they never left one anothers sides). She sent him to the Amish and he came back confident, well broke and with all the personality.. She has sent many horses to the Amish for training.

Maybe it's the area? Not sure if she sends her horses to the same person or not.


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## NittanyEquestrian

KDeHaven42 said:


> First of all, I only read till about page 4 before I posted a response so I apologize if this is redundant.
> 
> I'm from Lancaster, PA. We have a huge tourist market here, almost entirely because of the Amish (the outlet shopping and pretty scenery don't hurt either). So I interact with them a lot, from simply passing on the streets to my favorite leather master who repairs all my tack FLAWLESSLY. My BO uses a local amish man as a farrier and to castrate some of his horses that aren't making it as studs, a previous barn I was at had a whole stable collapse during our blizzards last winter and hired the amish to rebuild. I have met these and many other Amish that are fantastic horsemen
> 
> I've also seen terrible episodes in the opposite. Horses that are beaten into a frenzy or overworked even after they come up lame and end up with terrible injuries. Horses pulling buggies and full speed with sweat pouring off of them and bloody sides/legs from ill fitting harness tack. Just like everyone else in the horse world, there are good and bad. All that has been said before but I noticed one main point that has been overlooked:
> 
> _*You are a horse person by choice. *_You chose to learn about these wonderful creatures and do the best you can by them. The Amish are horse people by force of nature. They don't have a lot of options. If you picked up joe schmo off the street he may hate or be afraid of horses, he may not know the first thing about handling them or care to research it. But if Joe Schmo is Amish (and there fore, probably Joe Stoltzfus ) he is going to have to do something with them anyway and chances are he won't be the best horseman._* If everyone in the world had to rely on horses for their business and travel, there would be far more bad horsemen. *_I can think of many people I'd never want to see working with horses, but if they were Amish, what other choice do they really have?
> 
> I do not condone the bad that people do to their animals, Amish or otherwise, but it has to be expected that in a culture where horses are constantly being used, that there will be more abused horses than in a culture where the use of horses are optional.


I would just like to say that you're my new favorite poster =) Excellently well said. Cowboys and other non-secular horse people are horse people BY CHOICE. Amish have two choices. Walk or use a horse to get ANYWHERE. If you are 10 miles from home and your horse comes up a bit lame and you're an amish man what do you do? Most don't have cell phones, home owners (generally because of all the bad publicity about animal/child abuse) probably won't let you in to call someone to help you. AND say you have a phone? Who do you call? Your neighbor buddy to bring his truck and trailer to pick you and your lame horse, 5 children, wife and buggy up and take you home? Only if you're extremely lucky.

A good amish family will get out and hand walk the horse home and then once home do everything to make the horse comfortable. A bad one will keep beating the horse to go forward regardless of how hard it is for the horse. Either way the only option is to get it home. One might be better than the other but the options are still the same and very limited. If you see a lame horse being led by a family along the road or you see a lame horse being driven with a whole family in the buggy do you immediately go aww how nice that they're walking the lame horse instead of driving it? Or do you say to both scenarios, nasty amish people abuse their horses and look it's lame and can't even pull the buggy anymore...?


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## KDeHaven42

aww thanks guys


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## Valentina

No - growing up my (once Amish owned) horse was easy to ride and handle - and certainly not afraid of anybody or anything by his butt.

The Amish are like everyone else - there are good horse people and bad. To generalize is a mistake.


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## D French

Any Amish broke horse I have been around has had emotional problems.And I use the word broke literally. They don't start them they break them.
The Amish don't let the good ones go. They stay within the Amish community. They send the emotionally damaged ones to the auction where the rest of the horse owing world buys them not realizing what problems they are in for. Very sad.


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## MacabreMikolaj

D French said:


> Any Amish broke horse I have been around has had emotional problems.And I use the word broke literally. They don't start them they break them.
> The Amish don't let the good ones go. They stay within the Amish community. They send the emotionally damaged ones to the auction where the rest of the horse owing world buys them not realizing what problems they are in for. Very sad.


This topic is over 6 months old. :-|


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## equiniphile

The Amish horses have a fantastic life. It is a hard life, yes, but the Amish rely on them for everything. They know their limits, they know how to work with them, and they would never damage something that was the basis of their life. It's like in any business....these animals are not pets; they are business tools. They are fed enough to sustain their livliness, cared for regularly to maintain their livliness, and they are worked. If they don't bring in more than is put out to them, they are sold. In no business can you put out more than is brought in. It defeats the purpose of business.

I have had experience with Amish horses, and have experienced nothing like you have described. They were all well-mannered, bombproof, and these horses did NOT take advantage of you. They KNEW what they needed to be doing when they did it, and they were all happy to have a job. They were not spoiled like so many horses are by non-Amish, but horses really do not need everything people like you and I seem to think they do. They do not need stalls picked whenever there is any warning that their tail might be lifting in an attempt to take a dump; they do not need air-conditioned 14x14 stalls with padded stall mats and misting systems to keep cool....hell, they don't even need stalls. Amish horses are taken care of. They are sufficiently cooled out after work, fed and watered regularly, shod and wormed with regularity, and provided shade in hot summer months. Horses don't need more than this.


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## Reiterin

KDeHaven42 said it best.


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## BackInTheSaddleAgain

Not anymore! 


MacabreMikolaj said:


> This topic is over 6 months old. :-|


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## Spirit11

Well since this topic is "new" again I'll put in what I've witnessed with the Amish in my area, another rather rural area in Wisconsin.

We have an Amish village, group, what ever you would call it living right outside my town. The only bad thing that I've seen is how much they work their horses. They work and work and work. I drove by once and saw two men with horses and plows out in a field. It was morning. On my way home, about around 6:00 PM maybe they were still in the field, dripping sweat and looking like they were ready to drop. HOWEVER, it looked like the same men were still there, also dripping sweat and looking beat. They weren't asking the horses to do anymore they they did. 

The owner of the first horse I rode on trails alone send his horse to be trained by the Amish. He was a young horse with too much attitude, that would bite really bad. He came back from the Amish and hasn't bit since. Granted he was a little head shy when he first got home, maybe they treated him bad, but honestly, think of what would have happened if he stayed such a bad biter...

My girl Spirit was an Amish horse, used for driving. I have no idea if they trained her or not, or how long they had her. I only know the lady who gave her to the rescue bought her from the Amish. Spirit has scars on her face and white hair forming a halter shape, she also has a bit of a sway back, and some missing hair where a harness would have rubbed. BUT, she's also the best horse I've ever worked with. I can 100% trust her to take everything I throw at her in stride. She has zest and fire, the name Spirit really fits her. She has a ton of get up and go, and at 30 she's shown no signs of arthritis. She had issues at first, but it seems that the harder I work her, the more happy and content she gets. I've never harnessed her, but I think she would do awesome, and I dont think she was ever beat. Maybe overworked, but never beat.

I dont really have a point to my post lol, just wanted to share my expirience.


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## ShinaKonga

I was just sitting here and thinking, 'I hope none of the Amish see this and get offended...'
Then I thought for a second.


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## trailhorserider

ShinaKonga said:


> I was just sitting here and thinking, 'I hope none of the Amish see this and get offended...'
> Then I thought for a second.



:rofl:


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## somoni

I'm aware of this kind of horse after I read your post.


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## mbender

:lol: maybe not the Amish, but the menanites. I skipped a lot of the posts on here but I will tell you, I live in the heart of Amish country. They do take care of their horses. This has been mentioned before but, horses are their only way of transportation and field work. Yes, they ride bikes but needing to get somewhere fast or with the family, the horse is completely relied upon. Most of the horses they own are bred for the work that is required of them. Its all these horses know. They usually have more than one so they can give breaks to them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## equiniphile

My farrier is Amish; he's the only one who could shoe my problem horse Sundance when we had him. Most farriers here won't trim drafts, especially drafts that bite and kick. Our guy is phenomenal, though; the horse stood there docile as ever while he trimmed. He knew how to get respect from these animals without appearing pushy or over-the-top. I have a high respect for the Amish. I also went to look at a Percheron once from him; his son rode her all around the property bridleless. No horse would willingly do that cooperatively if they were abused or roughly handled.

ETA: It irks me when people see Amish horses and immediately say they're "backyard breeders." How would breeding more than they could use help them? A system that relies on useful horses so much is not likely to breed horses that won't be useful, or more than they can afford to feed.


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## Mypaintcanjump

i have a horse and he got *HIT* with a *PIPE *and was *TIED IN A STALL NO FOOD OR WATER AND STOOD IN POOP UP TO HIS CHEST!!* when I was riding the other day i found out he got hit by a cone, my instructer was moving the cone and he jumped


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## Alwaysbehind

Mypaintcanjump said:


> i have a horse and he got *HIT* with a *PIPE *and was *TIED IN A STALL NO FOOD OR WATER AND STOOD IN POOP UP TO HIS CHEST!!* when I was riding the other day i found out he got hit by a cone, my instructer was moving the cone and he jumped


You are saying that because the horse jumped when your trainer moved a cone that he must have been hit by it?

I am sorry but I have to laugh at that.

A horse being afraid of a strange thing does not in any stretch of the imagination mean it was previously abused by said thing.


Or maybe I should go home and assume that BF has been abused by just about everything; trees that move in the wind, her hay bag when hung in a new spot, a jolly ball when not where she left it, etc.


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## Mypaintcanjump

hey dont be mean!!!


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## CrazyHorseArtist

I've never had a bad experience with any Amish, or Amish broke horse. I used to work at a Standardbred Racing setup before I moved. 80% of the yearlings there were sent off to Amish to cart train. They all came back Healthy, and Sane. I've never met Amish so crule as a lot of you describe.

I'm sorry that some of you have see some bad apples, but personally The Amish broke racers did 90% better on and off the track than the owner broke horses. If I were to Read a horse ad and it said "Amish Broke" I'd probably be more interested.


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## Alwaysbehind

Mypaintcanjump said:


> hey dont be mean!!!


Not being mean. Just pointing out facts.

It does a horse (or any other animal) no good to assume it was abused just because it does not react the certain way you would like it to.


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## DutchFeather

I've bought and owned several Amish work horses. All of them were hard workers, good to be around, and not at all spooky or distraught. I also recently sold a belgian mare to an Amish man. His work horses were getting old so he was looking to replace them. The mare was in foal so he got a two in one deal. He absolutely fell in love with her. He's going to be working her with one of his old work horses, and when her foal is old enough to train, he's going to use her and her foal together and sell the older ones. He and his family don't actually break/train their horses til they are 4, the colts/fillies are out to pasture to grow before they train them. I'm very comfortable with him owning her and her foal. 

Also, to the girl who said she sent her 2 year old to be trained by the Amish, why were you in such a rush to have him trained at 2 years old? Maybe he wasn't treated like a prince, but you put him in the situation and left him there for almost a month. Just saying.


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## corinowalk

Assuming abuse has occurred is a bad habit to get into. Horses are reactionary animals that--well--react. 


Froggy was Amish owned and trained to ride. He may not have all the bells and whistles of a well trained horse but considering he never got a 'let down' off the track and was put right to work with the Amish, I'd say he does pretty good. No signs of abuse at all.


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## PerchiesKisses

It makes me sad to see a group of people so judged... we have Mennonites around here and they do have some wonderful horses. The best draft horses we get almost always come from Mennonite farms, and they hardly looked beaten or sour - in fact the one became sour after having a reduced work load and thus we had to find stuff for him to do to keep him happy.

There is a rescue farm where I live who also swears that the Mennonites mistreats the majority of their horses.. but the horses I've seen her come in with behave more like horses that no one has really played with or touched versus horses that are abused.

She came back with a little hackney-Percheron-mutt of a horse who was extremely nervous around people. she claimed this horse was abused and that these Mennonites were at fault for the horse's mistrust of people. I spent a day working with the horse - which isn't long enough to 100% confirm anything - but found that there were no scarring on this horse and that while his feet were longer than I would have like to see he was far from neglected looking. He WAS nervous of people, but if you were to bring a mustang off the range home and stick him in with people would he not be nervous too? Is a mustang 'mistreated' because it isn't handled? The little mutt-horse was a gental fellow and willing to learn, just weary of new things. After about an hour of playing with him in a little round pen, I could run my hands up and down his body easily and with minimal stink eyes directed at me.

My only complaint with some of these Mennonite horses is the need for stocks on many of the drafts and the "go attitude". The horses we've gotten have all needed to be retaught to stand and wait, as most of them hear those chain clink and start walking off.

But it's an understandable reaction and it's easy enough to fix with patience.


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## corinowalk

I actually got Froggy through a dealer who works almost exclusively with the Amish. They have all drafts and occasionally have a light horse for sale because they take trade ins. There were probably 100 various breeds of Draft there and not one of them looked bad. And this was at a *dealers* place. The dealer said he rarely gets them in looking bad because while the light horses are their 'cars', the work horses are their 'tractors' and without tractors, you don't have a farm.


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## Speed Racer

Mypaintcanjump said:


> i have a horse and he got *HIT* with a *PIPE *and was *TIED IN A STALL NO FOOD OR WATER AND STOOD IN POOP UP TO HIS CHEST!!* when I was riding the other day i found out he got hit by a cone, my instructer was moving the cone and he jumped


This has exactly_ what_ to do with the Amish? 

As Always stated, most horses who react stupidly to things have never been abused. They're 'flight before fight' animals, and extremely reactive. Doesn't mean they were abused.

I flapped my windbreaker at my gelding this morning, and he almost had a stroke. I doubt seriously if anyone ever beat him with a windbreaker before I got him. :?


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## Alwaysbehind

Speed Racer said:


> I flapped my windbreaker at my gelding this morning, and he almost had a stroke. I doubt seriously if anyone ever beat him with a windbreaker before I got him. :?


Giggle.
How exactly does one beat a horse with a windbreaker anyway? When I think dangerous stuff windbreakers do not come to mind.


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## Barrel Baby

WE HAVE HAD THE SAME EXPERIENCE!!!!! we have had several horses that are just terrified of people! one we bought was a big beautiful belgian (prettiest horse ive ever seen!) but the problem was....it was too afraid to come to us! It got a little better, but it was just soooo sad to see how mean they are and how a horse can be sooo afraid of people like that! I would try to gain their trust and let them know you mean good!


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## PerchiesKisses

Speed Racer said:


> I flapped my windbreaker at my gelding this morning, and he almost had a stroke. I doubt seriously if anyone ever beat him with a windbreaker before I got him. :?


****! I had a mare who hated coats too. I just thought this was funny cause I can totally picture the OMFG!! WHAT IS THAT! look on her face whenever we flapped any coat.


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## Speed Racer

Alwaysbehind said:


> When I think dangerous stuff windbreakers do not come to mind.


They're flappity and make noise, Always. You know how dangerous flappity noises are, especially to Casper!


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## Alwaysbehind

Well yes, I realize that part. I have BF who feels the same way about noise making things that have the gall to move with out her permission.

What I do not get is how one can actually beat a horse with one. Going along with the 'they are scared of it so they must have been beat by it' theory...how does one beat/injure a horse with a wind breaker?


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## mbender

Just now going through the thickness of Amish country. Every horse and buggy I have seen are shod, and the Amish properties are pastured with acres and acres of good pasture. Passed a place where the buggy horses are tied and have blankets on. Most of them really care about the health and welfare of their horses. 

To enhance what Speed is saying "fight or flight animals", I believe any horse that is said to be "bomb proof" or has been exposed to everything, still has that instinct to run from danger if he feels threatened. Its nature and survival of the fittest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## corinowalk

Barrel Baby said:


> WE HAVE HAD THE SAME EXPERIENCE!!!!! we have had several horses that are just terrified of people! one we bought was a big beautiful belgian (prettiest horse ive ever seen!) but the problem was....it was too afraid to come to us! It got a little better, but it was just soooo sad to see how mean they are and how a horse can be sooo afraid of people like that! I would try to gain their trust and let them know you mean good!



Could this also have been a horse that was simply not socialized with humans? How do you detect meanness from someone simply just not doing things the way you do them. Different isn't wrong. 

Unhandled horses of any variety (amish trained or not) haven't been mistreated. Quite the opposite. They just haven't been handled.


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## jethroish

I have an Amish farrier. He also trains many horses. Has worked with one of mine and horses of others I know. 
He is great with his horses and those he trains for others.


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## smrobs

PerchiesKisses said:


> There is a rescue farm where I live who also swears that the Mennonites mistreats the majority of their horses.. but the horses I've seen her come in with* behave more like horses that no one has really played with or touched versus horses that are abused*.


 
PK, I think you have a wonderful point here. None of the Amish folks that I know would ever dream of mistreating their horses; however, they don't take the time to pet and scratch them like most of us do either. The horses are caught, harnessed, and put to work. After work, they are unharnessed and either put back into a stall or their paddock. There is no real affection, no time spent together as companions. While horses are well cared for, they are not coddled. 

They are treated much the same way we treat our vehicles: put gas in them, replace the tires when they need to, drive them to go get your groceries or plow your field, and then park them in the garage when you get back. That, IMHO, does not qualify as abuse and many of those horses, while well broke, might not seek out affection like an English broke horse will. Some people might see that as stand-off-ishness or fear, when it is nothing more than lack of affection.

This is the type of horse that is fairly typical to see from the Amish around these parts. Very well broke, healthy, gentle pair of mares that were willing to do whatever you could possibly want or need. If I had had the money, I would _so_ have brought this team home.


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## pintophile

It's completely wrong to judge the entire Amish/Mennonite population just on the "bad apples", but at the same time it's just as wrong to say that all of them are miracle horsemen. 

I personally have nothing but praises to say for the Mennonites I've met. I like the way they handle horses and the way they train them. I haven't met a "bad" one yet, but I'm more than willing to believe others when they say they have had bad experiences with Mennonite-trained horses. As with everything in life, it's just a matter of perspective and your past experiences/how you were raised.


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## PerchiesKisses

Wow! that's one wicked team up there! I'd have brought them home too! 

On another note, the Percheron gelding we got from the Mennonites had super training - like better than ANY horse I've seen trained by non-Mennonites. He was being a brat to catch one day in the field. He had gotten his halter off and wouldn't let me near him, so after getting fed up with trying to catch him, I walked along at a steady pace behind him and literally "drove" him into the barn with my voice. The only cues we used were "Gee" "Haw" and "Whoa"

I don't know any other horses who would be THAT good with their voice commands, but I guess when you work all day, every day with your horse they learn what is expected and they get just as good at the routine as the people do.


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## mbender

No matter who you are or what your background is, there are good and bad trainers/owners all over. And like pintophile said "it's completely wrong to judge the entire Amish/Mennonite population just on the "bad apples"." There is good and bad all over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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