# Maybe a stupid question



## ichliebepferde (Sep 8, 2011)

seven said:


> If I can ride my horse with a halter and lead rope, then why would I want to put a bit in her mouth?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Every horse is different, if you can ride your horse with a halter in lead rope, great :] then don't put a bit in her mouth. 
I can also ride my horses with halters and lead ropes, but I like to use the bit to get them to do certain things, like flexing, giving her head, etc. That's more difficult to do in a halter.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

If all you want to do is plod around and never teach your horse properly, keep using a halter and lead lines.

It's like trying to do delicate, close work while wearing gloves. The bit isn't a torture device, it's used for _communication_ between horse and rider.


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## seven (Apr 3, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> If all you want to do is plod around and never teach your horse properly, keep using a halter and lead lines.
> 
> It's like trying to do delicate, close work while wearing gloves. The bit isn't a torture device, it's used for _communication_ between horse and rider.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seven (Apr 3, 2011)

Maybe that should be bosal or bit?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

My horses didn't like the pressure on nose. They both preferred the bit. As already stated it greatly depends on horse, discipline, and training. If you can control your horse with halter just fine, and you both enjoy it, and you don't plan to show, then why not?


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## seven (Apr 3, 2011)

Thanks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

A bit isn't cruel if you use it properly. If you are planning to show at all then you'll have to be able to ride your horse in a bit. If you are just plugging around the house then it really doesn't matter other then the fact that you don't have much control with a halter and lead rope if the horse does decide to have a moment of temporary insanity. If you are deadset against a bit then you could try a hackamore but those can be way more harsh then a bit depending on the rider....


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

farmpony84 said:


> A bit isn't cruel if you use it properly. If you are planning to show at all then you'll have to be able to ride your horse in a bit. If you are just plugging around the house then it really doesn't matter other then the fact that you don't have much control with a halter and lead rope if the horse does decide to have a moment of temporary insanity. *If you are deadset against a bit then you could try a hackamore but those can be way more harsh then a bit depending on the rider....*



This bit.

If your horse works in what he's happy- don't fix it. I prefer bit, I have ridden my horse back from the field in a headcollar and it doesn't suit me.

If you have a bit, or you have a hackamore, or a bit of string, its not what it is, its how you use it.


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## henia (Jul 31, 2011)

In my opinion you can teach your horse properly just with a halter and lead rope. Why not?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

henia said:


> In my opinion you can teach your horse properly just with a halter and lead rope. Why not?


henia, it greatly depends on what you teach the horse. I'd say yes for trail riding. I'd say no for some other disciplines.


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## PerchiesKisses (Dec 6, 2010)

I like riding in both, and switch depending on how much of a "work" frame of mind I want my horse in. 

If I'm going out with the intent to teach him something, like neck reining, or stopping quicker, then I use a bit. It offers a more enforced signal with less pressure, giving him reason to look at my other cues I'm giving like body weight, leg placement, etc for signs of what I want.

If I want a lazy, soft paced day I slip a halter on and attach a lead rope. He still is expected to respond when I ask for something, but his frame of mind isn't so work orrientated and usually the halter is accompanied by bareback.

My horse know when a bit is on we'll likely be doing some faster, and more challenging work, but when the halter is on he knows we're just going to have a lazy day.


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## henia (Jul 31, 2011)

Ok, my mistake. Halter and lead rope maybe are'nt the best tool to comunicate. I meant bitless bridles in general. I used to ride just with a halter and lead rope and changed it to the rope bitless bridle. With it cues can be more exact and light.


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## VetTech2011 (Nov 3, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> If all you want to do is plod around and never teach your horse properly, keep using a halter and lead lines.
> 
> It's like trying to do delicate, close work while wearing gloves. The bit isn't a torture device, it's used for _communication_ between horse and rider.


I disagree with this. I am not against bits, I use one myself and I agree its used for communication between horse and rider. However, you do not NEED to have a bit to achieve that communication or to teach your horse. 
I am able to achieve the same result with a halter as I am with a bit. It takes even greater communication between horse and rider to go without a head device and to achieve more complex movements or perform in specific disciplines. The horse does not need a bit to learn properly. 

I don't think a halter would be my prefered choice if I wanted to be training my horse bitless - there are other set ups out there I would prefer but that doesn't mean it can't be done. 

To the OP, if you are looking to get into showing then training your horse to be just bitless may not be the best idea. I would look into the rules as to what devices are and aren't allowed. However, I am seeing more and more allow bitless devices to be used. If you wish to use a bit, use a mild bit like a single or double jointed smooth snaffle.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I have never seen a very finished horse that was trained with just a halter. I have run into several people that tried to tell me how 'broke' their horse was and bragged that they had only ridden with a halter or side-pull. When they tried to show me how well their horses did, all they managed to show me was how little their horses actually knew. It was really a case of 'they did not know what they did not know'.

I have had people bring me horses to train and either bring a home-made headstall of some sort or instructions to ride their horse only in a halter. I just sent the horse back home. I felt it was like trying to train a horse with one hand tied behind my back.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

If I can sens a note by carrier pigeon why would I want to use a text message? The level of communication is much better and clearer when using a proper bridle and bit.


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## Showjumper1 (Dec 20, 2011)

I agree with alot of the previous posts. If you can ride and have control with just a halter and leadrope then great, but if you want to teach proper headset and collection, a bit can be really useful in achieving that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BravadoThePony (Nov 7, 2011)

henia said:


> Ok, my mistake. Halter and lead rope maybe are'nt the best tool to comunicate. I meant bitless bridles in general. I used to ride just with a halter and lead rope and changed it to the rope bitless bridle. With it cues can be more exact and light.


How so?


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## harryclifford (Aug 20, 2010)

Personally, I don't think you do need to put a bit in their mouths - it all depends on what you want to do  
I ride in a load of different ways, just because it's fun, and then it never gets boring! I take dressage lessons, for which I use a linked snaffle, because it's what suits my horse, but he'll also round up when bareback in a halter. But then I'll also ride him with no bridle or halter on, just with a neckstring. It really depends what you want to do  
It is good to have a horse trained to be able to go in a bit though, because a lot of people will want to use one on a horse, and it can be useful for some things. But bits aren't always needed. And it's not a stupid question - I think that some of these answers have been really interesting


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## harryclifford (Aug 20, 2010)

Hope that helps


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## henia (Jul 31, 2011)

BravadoThePony said:


> How so?


Sorry but I didn't understand  What do you mean asking "how so?" ?


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> If all you want to do is plod around and never teach your horse properly, keep using a halter and lead lines.
> 
> It's like trying to do delicate, close work while wearing gloves. The bit isn't a torture device, it's used for _communication_ between horse and rider.


Boxing gloves:wink:


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## ceasar (Dec 21, 2011)

thats fine unless u paln on showing... i would use a bit every now and then tho so ur horse doesnt get to used to a halter and stops wanting to take the bit, just incase u decide u want to show one day


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## Legend (Nov 15, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> If all you want to do is plod around and never teach your horse properly, keep using a halter and lead lines.
> 
> It's like trying to do delicate, close work while wearing gloves. The bit isn't a torture device, it's used for _communication_ between horse and rider.


I think I am going to disagree. :shock:

It is _*very*_ possible to perfect fineness, and precision with no bit. I will admit it might not be _as_ easy, without direct communication to the mouth, but it sure is possible, depending on the rider. 

I leave wearing a bit-less bridle, or a bit, up to my horse. If he responds to one better, that is what I train in.

It is also very possible to to do more than just "plod around" while wearing a halter. Amazing things can be done on horses, without a bridle, or halter on.

IMO, if the horse is good in one, like, if he responds to bit-less better than bit for instance, then he will be more precise with bitless, then with a bit. Again, it depends on the horse and rider.

I'm sure you have seen some riders ride a horse without anything on them, and you watch as they do spins, immediate stops, galloping, to cantering, to trotting, all without any bit in their mouth. THAT takes more precision than anything.

Horses that are rode without anything on them, like a bridle, or _bit_, actually have to follow the riders cues 100% to do the exercises, they don't need to rely on a bit to tell them what to do.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Legend said:


> I think I am going to disagree. :shock:
> 
> It is _*very*_ possible to perfect fineness, and precision with no bit. I will admit it might not be _as_ easy, without direct communication to the mouth, but it sure is possible, depending on the rider.
> 
> ...


True, but I guarentee they were rode with a bit before the point of riding bridless.

Even Stacey Westfall rode her horse that she was famous for riding without a saddle or bridle with all the above before she rode without.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## henia (Jul 31, 2011)

I heard that Nevzorov doesn't ride horses, but in the past he did. Then he did it without anything on their heads (just with a string around their neck I guess). He rode then very well...
And I think there is two different things in this discussion. First about riding with halter and second about riding without a bit in general.
In my opinion bit isn't necessary. But I must admit that halter isn't the very precise tool for communication.


> The bit isn't a torture device, it's used for _communication_ between horse and rider.


It's obvious that if we put a bit in a horse's pasture it doesn't hurt the horse. It's all up to the person using it. But too many people use it not enough gently.


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## Legend (Nov 15, 2011)

COWCHICK77 said:


> True, but I guarentee they were rode with a bit before the point of riding bridless.
> 
> Even Stacey Westfall rode her horse that she was famous for riding without a saddle or bridle with all the above before she rode without.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Haha, Stacy was actually the person I was referring to. But, even if she did start training in a bit, I guarantee people can come up with the same results, starting bitless.


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## xEquestrianx (Aug 30, 2009)

you can use a bitless bridle? One of our old mares was trained that way, and she did great.


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## xxGallopxx (Dec 1, 2011)

farmpony84 said:


> If you are deadset against a bit then you could try a hackamore but those can be way more harsh then a bit depending on the rider....


I totally agree. My horse's old owner rode him in a hackamore. His philosophy was: ''If you can't get a horse to do what you want him to do without a bit in his mouth, you have no business riding that horse.'' I'm not even kidding. I don't see how he rode Joker, since he was a huge brat that just threw his head in the air and ignored what you asked of him. After working with him for 90+ days almost every day, *with a bit that fit his training level* he turned into a much more respectful, and better trained horse. It's too easy for horses to run through hackamores, and my trainer said that when you pull back on the reins, it cuts off their air. Wether or not this is true, I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.


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## VetTech2011 (Nov 3, 2011)

I disagree with the "must have" for a bit. I agree that halter may not be the best choice to achieve higher levels of training but it can be a good starter tool - a roper halter is what I start off using and advance further as I want to advance further training. 

You can achieve percesion, fineness, and collection without the use of a bit. These things don't happen because of the bit. Collection and "headset" are achieved when the horse is working from back to front. Collection isn't a result of the pressure in the horses mouth - you can ask with your hands and regardless if that pressure is from a bit, a neck rope or bitless bridle - its seat and legs that matter and headset will come naturally when you truly achieve collection. You can have a false headset in any set-up. 

It is true a lot of horses in higher levels you see bitless may have been trained with bits prior to using the bitless set-up of their choice. But can we really assume the horse will respond the same, and achieve the same level of control, suppleness or movements that it did in a bit? The bitless set-up (assuming that one is being used) will provide pressure over different areas compared to the bit and will require some degree of training for that horse to respond to that. 

This is just my opinion but I think people see a bit as a method of better communication because it rests in an area of more sensitive tissue, therefore you can get a ... faster? I don't know if faster is the word, or if better would be a more correct word to use. A faster result? A "better" result? Whereas a bitless bridle, halter or whatever you wish to discuss is using pressure distrubited over the bridge of the nose and poll. I think tradition as well as comfort over level of control also play a role in the bitless debate. 

Youtube is a great source to watch some of these videos... there are those of Stacy Westfall, dressage riders, eventers, show jumpers all using some sort of bitless set-up and achieving the same result. So ... it must be possible. 

I myself have an Quarter Horse, he is a very unique little guy, he's not an easy ride. He is a horse who knows he is stronger then a human and will take advantage of you and just take off with you. He gets very strong and fast. I've had this horse for 5 years and I ride him in a halter, Dr.Cook bitless bridle or with a french link snaffle. He will never be able to achieve ideal collection or more advanced movements because comformationally he is not built for it and its difficult for him to achieve - regardless of the set-up he is ridden in. However, he is soft, supple, working off his hindend better then he use to, and most importantly - controllable - even when he starts thinking otherwise regardless of the set-up he is ridden in with me. 

To the OP, there are no stupid questions. You should ride your horse in what YOU feel comfortable with. If you plan to show you may want to consider a bit. If you want to achieve bitless then I think that is GREAT! Start out in a simple halter if that's what you enjoy doing. If you want to be more advanced then just casual riding with your horse then seek out a trainer who can help you and your horse advance riding bitless. Investigate into a bitless set up your horse will be comfortable in, borrow a few if you can. Find a trainer/coach to help you bring your horse along bitless if you can, especially if you wish to achieve more complex movements in a certain discipline. 

Just my two cents


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

Why the hell not?  If your horse does well and you feel comfortable, DO IT. That's great that you and your horse are at that level. Bits and bridles are for, basically, better communication with a horse, so if your communication is good enough without one, great.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

If you are not competing in anyway that requires you to use a bridle, then ride any which way you want & feel you have communication with the horse.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I obviously don't know what a "bitless bridle" so if anyone wants to explain that to me that would be great.

For me riding bitless would be in a rope halter or in a bosal. Riding in a bosal is an art in itself to achieve results.Basically riding in a bosal is bluffing a horse in a way. Once he learns he can push through it you've ruined it. And the same is with a halter. You have to have the respect. However I am not saying you get from a bit. Same with a bit, if you pull on the same area constantly you numb that area and you have to pull harder to get those same results. I see so many people riding in the bosal and never change the position on the nose or never have it adjusted properly to begin with! Let alone using it correctly and they just end up with a hard faced run away. Buying a good bosal isn't easy either, you have to know what to look for and want to spend the money on it. Instead of buying some cable core POS for $30 at the feedstore. When done correctly a hackamore horse can have more finesse than a bridle horse believe it or not. And I don't think most people have the knowledge to accomplish that....not saying that I do, but I have been learning.

I am not an advocate of most people riding with a bosal or halter all the time because I have seen more wrecks than anything else. I worked for a cowboss who would fire you if you rode out of the saddle barn with a bosal hanging on your horse to go doctor yearlings just for that reason. Here you are with a 700 lb steer on the end of your rope and there is dip **** trying to pull up Brownie in his hackamore rig to get close enough to get a heel shot in. But if you wanted to ride your horse in the pens at the barn and do a little training on one that was fine with him. I can ride and rope with a halter or bosal on all my horses, but do I do it all the time..no. I realize that most people are not going to be outside roping wild Mexican steers in a hackamore so I am sure its fine for most folks.

I sounded off earlier in this thread without really thinking but now I think
it's not really a matter of using a bit or not, but rather gaining the respect and responses from your horse that is desired. And if you have abilities to do so that is great!


Again I am speaking about bosal/hackamores(NOT the metal contraption hackamore-that is not a hackamore!) and rope halters. I have no idea about a "bitless bridle" or what it is and how to use one.



Vettech- good explanation of true collection and false headsets!


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## henia (Jul 31, 2011)

I found this definition: "
*Bitless Bridle: Definition:* A bitless bridle is any type of headgear used to control an animal (usually a horse) while riding that does not include a bit.
There are many types of bitless bridles. For example: A bosal is a bitless bridle. A hackamore is a bitless bridle. A side-pull is a bitless bridle. A cross-under is a bitless bridle. And a riding halter is a bitless bridle."


> It's not really a matter of using a bit or not, but rather gaining the respect and responses from your horse that is desired. And if you have abilities to do so that is great!


exactly


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

henia said:


> I found this definition: "
> *Bitless Bridle: Definition:* A bitless bridle is any type of headgear used to control an animal (usually a horse) while riding that does not include a bit.
> There are many types of bitless bridles. For example: A bosal is a bitless bridle. A hackamore is a bitless bridle. A side-pull is a bitless bridle. A cross-under is a bitless bridle. And a riding halter is a bitless bridle."
> 
> exactly



Thanks for the definition...another question...what is a cross under?


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

xxGallopxx said:


> I totally agree. My horse's old owner rode him in a hackamore. His philosophy was: ''If you can't get a horse to do what you want him to do without a bit in his mouth, you have no business riding that horse.'' I'm not even kidding. I don't see how he rode Joker, since he was a huge brat that just threw his head in the air and ignored what you asked of him. After working with him for 90+ days almost every day, *with a bit that fit his training level* he turned into a much more respectful, and better trained horse. It's too easy for horses to run through hackamores, and my trainer said that when you pull back on the reins, it cuts off their air. Wether or not this is true, I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.


It would only cut off the air if it were positioned really low on the nose, which be be positoned wrong.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

COWCHICK77 said:


> I realize that most people are not going to be outside roping wild Mexican steers in a hackamore so I am sure its fine for most folks.


This made me envision cartoon steers in big cliche sombreros and ponchos, like those mice in the old Speedy Gonzales cartoons


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## henia (Jul 31, 2011)

Here is cross-under


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## ConfusciusWasAGreatTeachr (Oct 29, 2011)

The Indian bosal or Indian hackamore is also a cross under, but just around the jaw.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Ian McDonald said:


> This made me envision cartoon steers in big cliche sombreros and ponchos, like those mice in the old Speedy Gonzales cartoons


Bah ha ha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

henia said:


> Here is cross-under


I have never seen one of those! I don't see that being any different than a mechanical hackamore other than the use of leverage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VetTech2011 (Nov 3, 2011)

COWCHICK77 said:


> I have never seen one of those! I don't see that being any different than a mechanical hackamore other than the use of leverage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You can find a good description of how it works, and where pressure is distrubuted on the website for the Dr.Cook bitless bridle - Dr.Cook's bitless bridle and other variations of that bitless bridle would work in the same manner.

I wanted to edit this to add: this style of bitless bridle would be my perferred choice based on how it works compared to other set-ups out there. I have used the Dr.Cook's on horses that have never been bitless (there are other versions like the Dr.Cook that just don't carry the "name" to the price tag) - even my own when I first took him bitless - and I have never had too much problem in terms acceptance and response from the horse.


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