# When is white, white?



## celestejasper13 (May 16, 2014)

A grey horse is called 'grey' because of the colour of skin underneath the hair - a horse that is grey will be grey (or dappled grey) all over and will have grey or coloured skin underneath. 
White markings on coloured horses have pink skin underneath - those areas are completely lacking pigment and so they are white. A horse will be considered 'white' if it shows a dominant white colour pattern - essentially where the white patches on a coloured horse have spread over the entirety of its body - this is very unusual.
Quite hard to explain but hope this helps answer your questions!


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

As stated above, there is a difference between grey and white. Color of skin is the most obvious, black skin vs pink skin. But there are other horse coat colors that also have pink skin, like the homozygous cream colors (cremellos, perlinos and smoky creams)

A grey horse inherits the grey gene from a parent, it is a dominant gene that never skips a generation. The horses are born a normal color (black, bay, chestnut, palomino, etc), whatever they would have been as an adult but the grey gene over time covers up. Turning the hairs white until the process is complete leaving the horse appearing to be white while the skin color is black. Pink skin on a grey horse is from where their white markings are or fungal scarring or loss of pigment. 

A white horse is actually born white with pink skin. They are essentially a giant white pattern that covers the entire body. If they are coat color tested, you can find out what their genetic coat color is that is being covered up by the giant white marking.


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## Rain Shadow (May 1, 2014)

One thing I've always wondered. Are Cremellos considered white?


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

My horse is grey with white markings  In other words, he has white hairs over black skin on most of his body, but has a white blaze and three white socks under which the skin is pink. To complicate things, he is flea-bitten, so has chestnut coloured flecks all over his body, but only on the grey (black-skinned) areas.

Here's a picture where you can see the difference in the skin tone on his face. His stockinged legs only show up when they're wet, but he has one dark hoof and three white hooves.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Rain Shadow said:


> One thing I've always wondered. Are Cremellos considered white?


No, they are not white. When you stand next to one, you can actually see that they are cream or ivory colored and may have white pattern markings. Skip has a blaze that isn't very noticeable because he's a light cream all over so it 'hides' unless you're right there looking for it. 










Chippy has a white pattern.


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## Chapter (Aug 25, 2014)

Thanks so much everyone, the pictures are definitely useful!

Are completely white horses rare? And are they sensitive to the sun?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Chapter said:


> Thanks so much everyone, the pictures are definitely useful!
> 
> Are completely white horses rare? And are they sensitive to the sun?


A totally white horse is fairly rare, you can usually find a little piece of a darker color somewhere but they do occur and are not always Lethal White Overo horses, the pattern just takes over. LWO is a whole 'nuther discussion. 

Are they sensitive to the sun? Well, in my experience with the cremello and other horses with a lot of white, the answer is yes. I have to put sunscreen on Skippy daily, and my other 3 white faced horses also have to have it at least on their noses. I go through about 1 gallon of sunscreen a year on those pretty white faces, it's not their favorite thing to allow me to do, but it's worth it.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Chapter said:


> There is probably such an obvious answer to this but I'm curious.
> 
> I've always assumed that light grey/seemingly white horses were always called greys but is a 'grey' horse ever actually white?
> 
> If not then aren't white markings technically grey? And what about piebalds/skewbalds/paints etc are they, for example, black and white or black and grey?


 A grey horse appears white, when that greying process has reached maximum expression, but he is not a true white horse. He will always retain that dark skin pigment, where he formerly had it, while a true white horse does not
No, far as white markings, on a Paint for example, the skin by those white markings is not pigmented


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, where horses are truly white, the skin thus being non pigmented or pink, is more sensitive to sun, while a grey hrose that has progressed to white, is not, as the skin remains pigmented


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Chapter said:


> Thanks so much everyone, the pictures are definitely useful!
> 
> Are completely white horses rare? And are they sensitive to the sun?


Yes, true albino horses are rare, and it was thought that dominant white was lethal.
Many white horses are actually horses with maxium expression of a pattern, such as a few spot leopard
The greying gene, is not a color gene, but a color gene modifier, that over time, replaces pigmented hair with non pigmented. Some theories explained this fact, by the greying gene being responsible in preventing hair shafts from picking up pigment from the skin layers, and also then go on the relate that to the high incidence of melanoma in grey horses, as that pigment then accumulates on the skin. There is some controversy on this, far as melanoma


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

some info on dominant white horses, plus the link explains various ways in which ahrose can appear white;

'Dominant white[edit]

The genetics behind this white Thoroughbred, and her white family members, are not yet understood.
Main article: Dominant white
Dominant white is best known for producing pink-skinned all-white horses with brown eyes, though some dominant white horses have residual pigment along the topline. Dominant white is, as the name implies, a genetically dominant color. At least one parent must be dominant white and it does not "skip" generations because it is not recessive. Nonetheless, new variations or mutations producing dominant white do occur spontaneously from time to time. Dominant white is rare, but has occurred in many breeds. It has been studied in Thoroughbreds, Arabian horses, the American White horse and the Camarillo White horse. There are 11 identified variants of dominant white, each corresponding to a spontaneously-white foundation animal and a mutation on the KIT gene. No horse has been identified as homozygous dominant white, and researchers have suggested that at least some forms of dominant white results in nonviable embryos in the homozygous state. While homologous mutations in mice are often linked to anemia and sterility, no such effects have been observed in dominant white horses. Dominant white horses typically have white noses that can be subject to sunburn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_(horse)

Don't know why that link won't copy correctly, so will need to good white horses + genetics


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Smilie said:


> true albino horses are rare, and it was thought that dominant white was lethal.


At present time, most people don't consider any horse to be an "albino" as they lack red/pink eyes. Whether that is a make or break for the label is an ongoing topic of debate. There are some interesting parallels between dogs and horses when it comes to color genetics, and this blog (which is written by the author of numerous books about color genetics) talks about those in relation to albinism. This blog, by the same author, discusses dominant white (which is now being called "white spotting," as its been found not all of the genes are actually dominant).

The information in that wikipedia article is not considered current at all. 

There is a link to various other color topics in the categories section on the right of the pages.. hours of fascinating and educational reading from an expert.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Rain Shadow said:


> One thing I've always wondered. Are Cremellos considered white?


What a pretty color!!

"A grey horse is called 'grey' because of the colour of skin underneath the hair - a horse that is grey will be grey (or dappled grey) all over and will have grey or coloured skin underneath."

They're called grey because they grey out and most of the time are a grey colored as opposed to white.

A white horse is never truly white, it is either grey (changes the hair and is not technically "white") or a maximum pinto color (maximum sabino pinto colors work as a "blanket" on the hair) or a very light color that can be called "white" but is still not genetically white (like grey).

Dominant white is the closest to "white" that you will get (I mean it IS white) but again, the horse is genetically another color that ALSO has the white gene, so it would fall into the same category as a maximum pinto color. Hope that makes sense. And yes, dominant white is very rare.


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## Chapter (Aug 25, 2014)

Thanks all! Definitely interesting.


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## Tori Taylor (Oct 9, 2015)

Interesting enough read. On the next island over there is a "white" pony who has pink skin, blue eyes and not a dark hair on his body. Next time I am over there I will try to take a photo of him always wonder what his "real" color is every time I see him. He is a cidomo pony so pulls tourists carts and is a stallion. No other horses here that color I know in our terms they paid quite a bit for him as his color is unusual.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Here, wiki beat us all to it! lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_(horse)#Dominant_white

Tori it sounds like a double cream dilute to me, most of the "white" colors do not effect the eyes, though of course a very maximum pinto could have blue eyes....but would also be likely there's SOME color somewhere.

If he has foals I would expect them to all be creams.


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## IndiesaurusRex (Feb 23, 2011)

Acadianartist said:


> My horse is grey with white markings  In other words, he has white hairs over black skin on most of his body, but has a white blaze and three white socks under which the skin is pink. To complicate things, he is flea-bitten, so has chestnut coloured flecks all over his body, but only on the grey (black-skinned) areas.
> 
> Here's a picture where you can see the difference in the skin tone on his face. His stockinged legs only show up when they're wet, but he has one dark hoof and three white hooves.


A pony where I work is actually fleabitten and white patterned, weirdly enough.

I'd never seen it before, but when she's wet you can see she has black skin with patches of pink skin, as if she were coloured, but her grey skinned parts are fleabitten.

I have no idea what she looked like young, as she was part of one of our rescue intakes, but maybe grey and white coloured?


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

IndiesaurusRex said:


> A pony where I work is actually fleabitten and white patterned, weirdly enough.
> 
> I'd never seen it before, but when she's wet you can see she has black skin with patches of pink skin, as if she were coloured, but her grey skinned parts are fleabitten.
> 
> I have no idea what she looked like young, as she was part of one of our rescue intakes, but maybe grey and white coloured?


The pony you describe is a grey pinto. If you did coat color testing you could find out what color they were before going grey and fleabitten. They are fleabitten on the areas of black skin because that is where their base color is, fleabites don't affect the white patches (pink skin areas). At birth, this pinto pony was born with a normal body color with a pinto pattern, as time went on the natural coat color turned grey and fleabitten.


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## IndiesaurusRex (Feb 23, 2011)

SunnyDraco said:


> The pony you describe is a grey pinto. If you did coat color testing you could find out what color they were before going grey and fleabitten. They are fleabitten on the areas of black skin because that is where their base color is, fleabites don't affect the white patches (pink skin areas). At birth, this pinto pony was born with a normal body color with a pinto pattern, as time went on the natural coat color turned grey and fleabitten.


I figured as much, I've met a few horses with colour patterned skin that had completely greyed out, but none that expressed it as fleabitten.


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## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi All!

We weren't quite sure _what_ to call this girl. Mandolin (Mandy) is 99% white, with a few black/salt_and_pepper spots, and tri-color mane and tail. (And a healthy pinch of dirt in the second foto  Our vet says she is a "Paint".

Steve


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I'm not seeing a "tri colored mane and tail"????

She's a greyed out pinto which is why you have the contrast between the pure white and the grey but the grey is not actually colored (as it is greyed out ) That is why color breeds avoid grey and too much white as you lose the colored look. If you look at her skin you will see the pink vs black we were just discussing. She's not missing any meals is she? She looks like such a sweetheart!

Here's a grey at about the same stage as her (note that the color is not consistent as some parts are already white and others still dark very normal at this stage), add the pinto markings and you get the color you have now


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

As genetic knowledge stands right now, the closest you will ever get to finding a "true white" horse is to find a horse with a maximum expression of some pinto pattern and even then, the likelihood that they will have some color on them somewhere is good, even if it's just a small spot.


This horse is a sabino with maximum expression. Note the pink skin everwhere, which is the main difference between a "white" horse and a non white horse












As for cremellos and perlinos, they might appear white to the average observer, but put next to a truly white horse, the difference would be obvious.


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