# Possible purchase, need confo critique!



## topofthemoon (Jul 7, 2017)

Considering looking at this 3 yr old gelding. I need a good, solid horse that wont break down after a few years. I am in love with him through description, videos and photos, but he is a very far drive. I'm willing to make the drive for the perfect horse. What do you think? Is he worth a look?


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## mckenzies (May 26, 2017)

I think he is a solid looking horse, gorgeous color and I can't see anything alarming based on the pictures attached. Super cute. Are you going to be doing a PPE?


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Depending upon what you want to do with the horse would make a yea or nay or with extreme caution my answer..

He is solid, _yes._
Does he have some questionable build traits.._.to me he does._
I see a thick throatlatch. That might affect putting a horse on the bit, collection.
I see posty hind legs and not the best set of legs.
I question the front leg stance.
He to me is very long backed.
He is chunky but I am unsure of he is "balanced".
He is 3 and still has growing to do...
The pictures leave a lot to be desired for conformation pictures.
The picture of the hind end to me is worthless taken not butt-square it shows nothing but a coat pattern.
I would absolutely go see in person but look with your eyes and mind first and put the key to the heart in your pocket till sure of what is what.
A PPE by a vet who looks for potential lameness issues in terms of "future" with this build and job in mind I think would be very smart.
He's cute...leaving the rest right there.
Good luck.
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think he is worth looking at.

He looks to be from Halter lines, no? it's his back end that makes me think that; the hint of 'diaper butt' and the straight hocks. But, it is not extreme. 
Yes, his throatlatch is a bit thick, but not so bad. He has a nice shoulder and I don't think his back is as long as all that. becuase his shoulder slopes back nicely, it is shorter than it may appear. sometimes a wildly patterned horse makes an overall judgement of his conformation a bit difficult.

I'd go see him.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

What do you want to do with him?


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## topofthemoon (Jul 7, 2017)

He has 6 months WP training put on him and has been to one show...I wont be using him for that tho. I want a safe horse with all of the basics put on him. I ride just for fun, both english and western and enjoy doing arena work and riding around the farm. He is currently being ridden 5 times a week by a 12 year old and shown until he sells.

I was originally looking for a 6-12 year old, so I am a little nervous about announcing to the barn that I am looking at (possibly buying) a 3 year old...but from the videos he seems as mellow and level headed as horses a couple times his age.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

What @tinyliny said about patterns making it hard to judge conformation is so true, especially in pictures. I thought he was long backed at first too when I looking at the whole picture but then I concentrated on just his back, tuned out the white and then didn't think his back was long after all. I'm not so sure he's all that post legged either. You really need to go in person with a friend, trainer or other professional who's used to judging conformation and won't let their eyes focus on what the white wants to make you look at. 

I have a paint mare whose head looks huge in pictures, even in person if you look straight on. She wears a size small halter taken up to the last notch and if you look at the headstalls hanging in my tack room you can tell which ones I've used on her because they'll have an extra hole or two added to every adjustment point. LOL


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

I like him ... for general purpose riding I think he'll be a nice horse to ride. In some of the pictures he does look a bit posty but I think that's more the angle than anything else .... I agree though that his pattern makes it difficult to tell from photos. I'd go look at him. A horse that is far away though, makes it hard to just look .... people think 'I'll bring my trailer just in case, no need to make that drive twice' and end up bringing something home they don't absolutely LOVE, just because the trailer is already on the back of their truck! Are you planning on bringing the trailer with you? I wouldn't - what horselovingguy said about keeping the key to your heart in your pocket is sound advice! Better to make a long drive twice and be ABSOLUTELY sure than feel subconsciously pressured into buying offhand ....

-- Kai


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Nice looker! What I don't like/maybe problematic... He has a longish back. He has a 'posty' looking hind end. It appears his right hind could be turned out. He's a little narrow chested. Some of those issues could potentially be corrected with good bodywork.

He appears to be standing under himself in front quite a bit - maybe just in those particular pics, but if it's a general thing, could be that he's tender on his feet. At 3yo he won't have developed the backs of his feets(digital cushions, LC's) well yet anyway, so I would be working on that, and not considering shoeing him until maturity, to give him the best chance of developing strong feet.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Will you be riding this horse by yourself? If you do go to look at him be sure that this is a horse that is comfortable going out by himself as this is what you are going to do with him.
He is young and may not have much experience riding out alone on trails. If this is so, your riding skill and experience needs to be at the level needed so that you can train him for this.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

_topofthe moon...._
*Go look.....*
He sounds like he may be what you want...
For your needs you don't need a top performance "best built horse"...little things here or there are not such a big deal.
Sounds _exactly_ like many of my horses have been throughout my life...good riding, enjoyable horses to own..did their job and _never_ a lame step nor illness had!

Now, as for "the barn".....
It truly is none of their business what kind of horse, age of the horse or anything else about this horse you privy them to knowledge about.
Nor is the price you pay for a horse any of their business, _*period!*_
You as the purchaser and bill-payer do _*not*_ need their approval...remember that!

As far as I am concerned...
You are far ahead of any of your barns "experts" because you are judging the horse based upon this individual horse not a preconceived notion and hearsay of people.
Some horses are just born "settled" in their demeanor and some no matter their age are "volatile" and more reactionary.
Good for you. _Look at the individual.._

_Go, look,...see, ride and evaluate if he fits your needs._
Again, look with eyes and mind then see him with your heart if he fits "the one" criteria.
Good luck.
:runninghorse2:....
_jmo...._


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## topofthemoon (Jul 7, 2017)

Thank you for all of your input. It is very appreciated!

Because of my horrible first buying experience, I am being very careful and cautious. I was going by looks and my heart the first time and ended up with a 12 year old with trust issues and A LOT less training than they told me. I re-started him from the ground up and we made the journey together. But I didn't know what I was getting into at all, and never thought twice about conformation. He ended up with suspensory issues because of his turned out feet. He is retired now and is my spoiled pasture pet. 

I am trying to do everything right this time and not end up with another train wreck. The seller sent me the name and number of the trainer, name and number to her vet and permission to ask them questions and see previous history. We talked on the phone for over 30 minutes yesterday and she sounds like a very nice, honest woman. 

I am going tomorrow to look at him. Also found out he was sent for trail riding experience and did well. I don't plan on trail riding a lone, but it is nice to know he is a confident 3 year old. I will be taking a lot of pictures and videos for you all to see. I wont be bringing a trailer because I am going to be doing a PPE if I still like him. What all should be done in the PPE? Would you suggest xrays?


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

To me....
He is young, under saddle and has already been shown...so quite a bit of riding time.
Sounds like he has been exposed to quite a bit already too...

As for PPE...
General wellness check.
A flexxion test...
Not sure what this one is called..Check pressure applied with hoof testers to the front hoofs...
I would be prepared for hock and pastern x-rays
Depending upon his stance up front and the vets opinion may also do front x-rays of feet.

His conformation pictures sent were _not_ very good to make a realistic evaluation of him.
His stance if accurate I would want to know it is just how he stands and not because he has already got some problems brewing.
Hoof changes, leg and joint issues sadly can start at any age....
Use a vet who you trust, gives pro and cons so you can make a educated decision with the most accurate information.

Good luck!
:runninghorse2:....
_jmo..._


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

There was a five year old appy gelding who was my favorite lesson horse when I was around ten or eleven, and no great rider at the time by any means at all. That horse was solid as a rock. Quiet, steady, a real pleasure to ride.

Age and gender is no guarantee of temperament or behavior.

I really like this gelding. I could not find anything not to my liking (and I'm not even a paint fan), aside from that his legs seem a tad long as proportionate to the rest of his body, but he is only three and still has more filling out to do. Looks to have nice large hooves and good bone. With proper care, I could see him living a full, usable, and enjoyable life. Let me know if you don't take him as I'll want to look at him myself. 

_(just kidding, I can't afford a second horse... yet)_


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Have you got someone experienced you trust for an objective opinion OP?


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## topofthemoon (Jul 7, 2017)

I just got back from riding him. He was fabulous and just as I imagined. Very calm, level headed and confident (and super cute!!). Great in cross ties, for hose, fly spray, saddling and bridling, you name it. Stands like a statue for mounting, picks up his trot and lope the instant you ask.

BUT my phone randomly broke after we finished untacking and we were talking. It is a random hardware issue with the motherboard (DONT BUY LG PHONES...second time this happened) and I lost all of the pictures and videos from today, along with everything else. Its super annoying. That was all I had to show my friends since they weren't able to come today. We are trying to recover the photos but we aren't having much luck. 

I also skimmed over his pedigree and recognized a few names. I know next to nothing about pedigrees...but they rang a bell. Zippo Pine Bar and Sonny Dee Bar. 

Since he is 3 should I expect him to grow much more height wise? I have heard all sorts of ages thrown around. He looks to be about 15.2ish right now which is a tad on the short side for me since I am 5'10"...although I don't show so it isn't a huge deal if I look like a giant lol. I know he will need time to fill out since he is still so young. They have another horse from the same lines, but a few years older, and he is a pretty good size and has filled out nicely. The sire is 15.2 but I'm not sure of the dam's height.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

At three he could grow quite a bit, both height and bulk. But 15.2 is not too small for you anyway, unless the horse is narrow and you are overweight. This is the kind of frankly silly worry I hear from impressionable young people who have been spending too much time with Warmblood fans who think 16.2 is dwarfish. 

Please try not to be concerned about what you look like to random observers, or what random people may bother to think about your choices. Be concerned about what your horse feels like when you are riding. Believe me, the latter is all that will count in the years to come.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

So...are you gonna buy him? He looks like a keeper!


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

The fiercest horseback warriors to ever live were the Mongols. They rode ponies, that according to wikipedia (it is wiki, so take it with a grain of salt) averaged 600lbs and 12-14 hands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_horse

I am far more concerned over the overall bone density and sturdy/stout look of a horse than how tall or weight heavy they are.


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## topofthemoon (Jul 7, 2017)

I think I'm going to get him!! I got him to side pass and pivot during our ride as well which I was really impressed with. He is so perfect, its almost too good to be true!

I'm going to call the vets around their area to arrange a PPE. I was able to get a few photos off of my phone, I'll attach them below. His feet are due for a trim but she didn't want to do it right before a PPE.

He also has Scratches on his left hind foot she is treating from the rainy humid weather.


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## topofthemoon (Jul 7, 2017)




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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Sounds nice. I agree that while he may not be 'perfect' conformationally - & who is? - it doesn't necessarily matter, depending on what you want to do with him. I also agree that 15.2hh is not too small for all but a giant - or an obese large person, if the horse isn't also stocky. I prefer to ride horses I can easily jump on bareback, so I pref. not to ride horses bigger than about 14.3hh. My daughter's pony is only 13.1hh but is a stocky haflinger type, so I don't feel too big for him either. Remember, it's only a fashion, that many feel they need to be riding massive warmbloods!

One relevant thing I wanted to point out in the front-on pic you posted, he does look quite narrow through the chest - that could be because he's tight or bound up through his shoulders. Be good to see how much lateral freedom he has in those legs - how much can they be brought out to the sides from the elbows, without resistance? I think this is more often a treatable body issue(esp in a young horse) than a 'conformational' thing, so it wouldn't put me off buying him, but I would want it treated.

& last pics... the tight shoulders could be due to saddle fit - that one's obviously over his scapula which will be restricting him.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

If that is you sitting astride in the pictures you fit him fine.
I don't concern myself so much with upper body as I do lower leg having decent coverage of the barrel...and you do.
For you to have great upper body coverage you or anyone else would need a giraffe as a mount!
Don't pay any mind to others comments....
Nice bloodlines...Bar babies were handy horses I found. Useful and fun.... :smile:

Make sure you use a vet the owner does not for that PPE...you know that already.

Best of luck and hope all goes well and a "new" horsey comes home to enjoy!!
:runninghorse2:....


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

That's a nice horse!
Keep us posted.


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## topofthemoon (Jul 7, 2017)

Thank you!! I am in love. I am scheduling a PPE for this week with a well known vet in their area. 

I see what you mean about the saddle sitting far up and possibly restricting movement. I noticed that as well when looking back at pictures. He is very narrow in general at the moment, not just his front end, my legs don't quite touch his sides yet because he has some filling out to do.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

topofthemoon said:


> He is very narrow in general at the moment, not just his front end, my legs don't quite touch his sides yet because he has some filling out to do.



If he were to stay "narrow" would it be a deal breaker for you? :think:
Although young, there are no guarantees he will broaden much, if at all....
:runninghorse2:.....


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## topofthemoon (Jul 7, 2017)

horselovinguy said:


> If he were to stay "narrow" would it be a deal breaker for you? :think:
> Although young, there are no guarantees he will broaden much, if at all....
> :runninghorse2:.....


I prefer thicker built horses just because that is what I am used to, and I like the look, but it isn't exactly a deal breaker. I'm more concerned about the horse having a good mind and a good start under him. His gaits were one of the biggest concerns of mine because of my sensitive back. But he is incredibly smooth, I wasn't sore at all after riding him. He feels very similar to my gelding. I test rode a few horses during my search and passed them up because of their rough gates, even though they fit the rest of my check list.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I think he'll fill out some based on his build, but he won't ever be a really stout 'swampy' stock horse. His chest is narrow, but that tells me he's still got some growing to do, and I bet he gains an inch or two in height and double that in breadth over the next year or so. I don't see anything conformationally that would be a deal-breaker for a pleasure horse, and if you're excited about him and he vets clean, I think he's a really nice young horse for you. You may need to help him out with some sunscreen/sun sheet with so much white on him, but some horses do just fine. 

Take his age with a grain of salt. I've ridden 3 y.o's with more sense than some horses four times their age. Stock horses, in particular, don't need as much time to grow mentally as some other breeds, IMO. They're bred for nice minds at an early age since futurity classes are so important in the stock horse world. 

I like your horse. Nice find.


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## topofthemoon (Jul 7, 2017)

Friday is his PPE. Assuming he passes, he comes home on Sunday!

Im starting to get nervous/excited...its starting to feel real now.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Don't forget to update us with euphoria or depression on a .....

*YES, he comes home *
or
*No, I passed..*

_Here's hoping this horse is "the one" coming home for you... :grin:_
:runninghorse2:....


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## topofthemoon (Jul 7, 2017)

Sad to announce I decided to pass. He was very sensitive to the hoof tester on all 4. Vet said he would suggest shoes all the way around, but he still may be sore after riding. Not something I want to worry about on top of my already high maintenance retiree.


...the search continues


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Sorry to hear.

I'm always an advocate for mustang anything if you want hardy. They are incredible horses. I have a mustang/TWH mare, she is my love. She is so hardy, always had fantastic hooves, can go for hours on end. I've had her 9 years. Never colicked, biggest health problem she's had is a bit of arthritis which I solved with a dietary supplement and she hasn't had any problems since.


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## mckenzies (May 26, 2017)

Sorry to hear that  I hope you find a horse you like soon.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Oh that is disappointing :sad: White hooves never seem as strong as black ones. He sure was beautiful though! 

Don't know how you feel about gaited horses, but they are very smooth and easier for weak backs. My Rocky Mountain gelding has really strong black hooves. He grew up in the mountains of Kentucky. My farrier said he'll never need shoes.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

So sorry to hear  I just read the whole thread and was rooting for you! Although at first I thought you were nuts, thinking about buying a 3 year old, I remembered I once rode this Arab/QH cross who was only 3 while visiting friends, and he was totally amazing! 

That said, you did the right thing passing on him. Incidentally, I have an Arab with 3 white hooves and one black. He has perfect feet and has been barefoot since we got him (he used to wear hooves during show season because previous owners did dressage and it was mandatory). No issues keeping either of my horses barefoot, neither have been lame a single day in my ownership. So the sensitivity is definitely suspicious.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

How disappointing....

You _*will *_find "the one" and it will be perfect at the right time and place for you.
:runninghorse2:.....


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Can't edit my reply above, but obviously, I meant to say my Arab used to wear SHOES, not HOOVES, LOL.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

BTW, the only difference between white & dark hooves is the pigment & that has no inherent properties of strength at all. It's an 'old wives tale' that white hooves are weaker than dark, so don't let that influence your choices! ;-) I think why people came to believe it is that white hooves show any damage, bruising, etc, whereas pigmented horn hides a lot of the damage underneath - it's not that white hooves damage more readily, just that you can't see it unless major in dark ones.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

loosie said:


> BTW, the only difference between white & dark hooves is the pigment & that has no inherent properties of strength at all. It's an 'old wives tale' that white hooves are weaker than dark, so don't let that influence your choices! ;-) I think why people came to believe it is that white hooves show any damage, bruising, etc, whereas pigmented horn hides a lot of the damage underneath - it's not that white hooves damage more readily, just that you can't see it unless major in dark ones.


Have heard that said that "white hooves are weaker" is an old wives tale; but in my experience...it does seem to be true! 

I do wonder if pigment has any effect on the density of the hoof...every single horse I have owned with black hooves they have been much denser. 

Have rasped some of my horses hooves occasionally in between farrier visits and I have found the white hooves to be a lot softer, especially when they are all white. When they are all black; sometimes they have been so hard I couldn't even rasp them! 

Sorry to go off subject but it may be important to the OP since she is trying to avoid buying a horse with hoof issues.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

topofthemoon said:


> Sad to announce I decided to pass. He was very sensitive to the hoof tester on all 4. Vet said he would suggest shoes all the way around, but he still may be sore after riding. Not something I want to worry about on top of my already high maintenance retiree.
> 
> 
> ...the search continues


So sorry he didn't pass the PPE :hug:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think he is quite nice!
To me, he is not too narrow at all, but nicely Ved up.allowing front end to move nicely , crossing over in side passing, spins, ect
Love the Zippo Pine Bars=great minds!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> Have heard that said that "white hooves are weaker" is an old wives tale; but in my experience...it does seem to be true!
> 
> I do wonder if pigment has any effect on the density of the hoof...every single horse I have owned with black hooves they have been much denser.
> 
> ...


 nope, our stallion, that was double Mighty Bright bred had four white hooves and they were extreme;y strong-never chipped, and he was always totally barefoot sound
What Loosie said, is factual


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Also sorry to hear that he did not pass the PPE,
I see you have moved on, which under the circumstances is the right choice, providing the vet using those hoof testers was experienced. Squeeze hard enough, and you can get a pain response in any horse!
Curious, how were the flexion tests? Was he trotted on hard ground? 
How did he ride?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AnitaAnne said:


> I do wonder if pigment has any effect on the density of the hoof...every single horse I have owned with black hooves they have been much denser.


Aside from it being highly likely that horses with unpigmented hooves would have died out over the millennia if they were weaker, and horses like appies with stripy hooves would have terribly cracked feet at the 'fault lines', there's also the fact that ALL hooves are unpigmented inside the stratum externum - very outer layer. And then they've also done actual scientific studies to compare chemical composition, tensile strength, density, etc.



> Have rasped some of my horses hooves occasionally in between farrier visits and I have found the white hooves to be a lot softer, especially when they are all white. When they are all black; sometimes they have been so hard I couldn't even rasp them!


Have these horses all been the same genetics, diet & nutrition, managed the same way from very young, same environment & climate? Respectfully, I think those things are what's behind the difference. I've never found one person who argues the case white feet are weaker that could say that was all the same between the horses they speak of.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

loosie said:


> Have these horses all been the same genetics, diet & nutrition, managed the same way from very young, same environment & climate? Respectfully, I think those things are what's behind the difference. I've never found one person who argues the case white feet are weaker that could say that was all the same between the horses they speak of.


Actually, the only thing the ones with the hardest feet had in common is they were black! One was a Percheron/Arab cross that I bought directly from the breeder and he was from south Alabama where the ground is all sand! He was born black and turned grey young. His feet were the hardest my farrier had ever trimmed! Being raised on sand should have caused soft hooves, not hard ones! 

The other one with rock hard hooves is my current horse a Chocolate RMHA that was born and raised for the first three years of his life in on very rocky ground in Kentucky. The chocolate color is actually Black with the silver dapple gene. 

The two examples above are different breeds raised in completely different environments! The only things they had in common are they are Black based and were raised in pastures, not stalls. 

My other black (or black-based) horses I did not know the history of, so cannot address those, but they all had hard feet. 

The softest hooves ever, is also a current horse of mine. He is an Arab/paint that has greyed out. When wet, his paint markings are easy to see and he has all four white legs and the whitest hooves of any horse I have ever owned. I have to feed him daily hoof supplements and have even had to boot him at times. Again, I do not know his history, so can't address how he was raised for the first years of his life. His hooves turn a yellowish shade on the current supplement I use for him. As he is now 28, keeping him sound is an even bigger challenge! 

So, I do respectfully disagree. 

When I am assessing a horse for my personal use, one of the first things I do is test the hoof (wall) for hardness. "No hoof, no horse" is another old wives tail I live by...


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

If white hooves were weaker, I think the best way to observe a difference would be in horses that have some white hooves, some black. You should be able to see a difference in the same horse, since everything else would be the same (nutrition, environment, etc.). My Arab has 3 white hooves and one black. No difference whatsoever in them. They are not trimmed differently, do not grow differently, do not crack or chip differently. So I have to agree with @loosie and @Smilie that the white hooves being softer notion has more to do with the horse than with the colour of the hoof.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> If white hooves were weaker, I think the best way to observe a difference would be in horses that have some white hooves, some black. You should be able to see a difference in the same horse, since everything else would be the same (nutrition, environment, etc.). My Arab has 3 white hooves and one black. No difference whatsoever in them. They are not trimmed differently, do not grow differently, do not crack or chip differently. So I have to agree with @loosie and @Smilie that the white hooves being softer notion has more to do with the horse than with the colour of the hoof.


Yes indeed. Softer white hooves on a horse without all hooves one color is exactly what I have experienced. 

Your experience may be different, but the older I get, the more I believe that white hooves are softer and black hooves are harder. Cracks can be caused by any number of things, so not considering that. But I do look at the coat color of the horse and how large are the socks, if present also, not just the color of the hooves. 

Management of the horse can improve the quality of the hoof, but will not totally eliminate the issue IMO.

That 28 yr old I mentioned? Most of the time I have owned him he was able to be ridden in the mountains over rocks while barefoot. At trot and some canter up until I retired him at 25 due to other old-age issues, _not_ his hooves. 

I have been able to transition all of my horses to barefoot, except one notable exception about 15 years ago. (he was chestnut btw) 

We all may have to agree to disagree :smile:


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