# Discussion about Paints, specifically Breeding Stock Paints



## AKPaintLover (May 26, 2007)

I initially wanted to respond and say that breeding stock paints should not be allowed to be eligible sires with the APHA, but then I felt like a hypocrite...our AQHA mare is in foal to Dez, and I have already decided that if it is a filly (colored or solid) we will be keeping it for the potential of breeding at some point in the distant future. Of course, with any future breeding (if when finished, the filly is well conformed, athletic, well natured, and successful in its discipline), I have also decided that I will only use a homozygous stallion, so the mare being breeding stock does not really matter, but if we are talking breeding standard, then should it not apply to mares as well as stallions?? 

I guess I don't have a straight answer...discuss on...


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## Broken A Ranch (Aug 14, 2008)

A breeding stock can genetically be set up to throw color if bred correctly and that is the goal. I really dont think it should matter as much as the conformation and ability of the animal. Color should always be secondary to that


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Yes, I agree that other factors come into play before color, as stated.... 

What about if a stallion has all the other qualities EXCEPT that he's a BS stallion? I'm not exactly sure how the genetics work behind it, if the horse can have a color gene but have it not expressed, but if it is a breed standard to have color, should we be "shunning" BS stallions because of their color? (Again, after a long list of other things, like conformation, mentality, etc... you can see my list of "requirements" in another thread)
I talk about stallions here just because with BS mares you can choose a homozygous stallion for color in the foal... it's harder to match the other way around.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I would just like to add that I have nothing against BS paints at all, just wanting to have a mature discussion about whether or not color should have an effect on a stud colt keeping his manhood or getting gelded.


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## Broken A Ranch (Aug 14, 2008)

Really though, you can breed a BS stallion to a homozygous mare and get color just as easily. I think if he excels in the other qualifications for a stallion, he shouldnt be "shunned" because he is BS since that is pretty easily overcome with the right mare.

I would rather see registries kick it up a notch on banning N/H horses from being registered at all than worry that my stud doesn't have enough color to remain a stud.

My 2 cents.


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## aappyfan1 (Jun 28, 2008)

Personally I believe if it is a breed that is distinquished by colour then why have solids representing the breed? To me it just confuses people. I Have Appaloosas and have obtained the right mare etc. that bred with my Stallion produced colour both times. As well as personality, conformation,etc etc.When I look at a Paint or a Appaloosa It is the colour that draws me in first Then I look at the rest of how it is put together. I have a good friend that raises Paints and she does have some solid breeding stock, this year she got colour on all three of her foals.


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## brogan (Aug 6, 2008)

my horse brogan was a APHA breeding stock stallion (he was gelded almost 2 years ago)

he was bred 3 times producing 1 was a tobiano 1 was a overo and 1 was a solid

with conformation aside-- solid paints can produce colored offspring, its all about genetics from both dam and sire and which gene comes out dominant


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## shizukanori (Aug 17, 2008)

My breeding stock mare (shes not completely solid 2 socks w/star and snip) with both parents who were bs as well. She was breed to a Friesian and produced a filly with a star,almost a full blaze and a snip.
I guess what im trying to say is it depends on the genetics of a horse so the best bet is to breed with a stallion who has been tested homozygous (well in the case of my mare the stallion was homozygous for black lol) But although I understand the color thing you should first consider the temperament and conformation.


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## lizard13 (Aug 25, 2008)

*My thoughts on the subject*








I believe that Bs paints should be able to be registered AQHA so they are not a total waste I know that you would have to prove that they would not throw color but it would be worth it to me/ does anyone agree? I do believe APH's should have color but all they are is a quarter horse with white so i don't understand why the solid ones aren't just registered AQHA? this is my BS Goldie I love her bloodlines and for 2 generations they were all solid and she throws color but only when bred to a painted stallion so I think they should let me register her AQHA. Do you agree?


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## lizard13 (Aug 25, 2008)

*oops i forgot to add*

I should have added i think they should be double registered so they can have both


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: My thoughts on the subject*



lizard13 said:


> I believe that Bs paints should be able to be registered aqha so they are not a total waste I know that you would have to prove that they would not throw color but it would be worth it to me/ does anyone agree? I do believe APH's should have color but all they are is a quarter horse with white so i don't understand why the solid ones aren't just registered aqha? this is my BS Goldie I love her bloodlines and for 2 generations they were all solid and she throws color but only when bred to a painted stallion so I think they should let me register her aqha. Do you agree?


Yes, I completely agree, thank you for putting words to what I was trying to say 
Since color is a breed standard for Paints, should that not be a slight deciding factor in their breeding "status" if you will?

PS - Goldie is really cute


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## lizard13 (Aug 25, 2008)

*fair enough*

Thank you very much! I'm glad someone agreed with what i was thinking was fair


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## Dvine (Aug 26, 2008)

idk this is a kinda of if-ie subject honestly it really alll depends on genes my friend bred her stack mare with a stud that has hardly any color and doesn't throw much color and her filly is one of the loudest paints I've seen. Looking on the Mares background we found she had tons of color in her genes.

So, in a sense I would agree with whats been said but genetics also plays a big part as well.

That's just my opinion anyways. =]


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## Harlee rides horses (Jan 13, 2008)

*Re: My thoughts on the subject*



lizard13 said:


> I believe that Bs paints should be able to be registered aqha so they are not a total waste I know that you would have to prove that they would not throw color but it would be worth it to me/ does anyone agree? I do believe APH's should have color but all they are is a quarter horse with white so i don't understand why the solid ones aren't just registered aqha? this is my BS Goldie I love her bloodlines and for 2 generations they were all solid and she throws color but only when bred to a painted stallion so I think they should let me register her aqha. Do you agree?



They can't be registered as a quarter horse though for the sole fact that they CAN throw colored paints....


Also, I was just on the APHA website and there are color requirements to be registered in the regular registry. I also noticed that to register a BS paint is cheaper than registering a traditional colored paint.


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## valleychick2121 (May 1, 2008)

I have seen double registered paints that also carry APHA/AQHA with an overo pattern. Those horses just put more color into the AqHA, which they frown over, so why would they register them in the first place. If you have horses like that, them basically you should be able to put a SPB in the AQHA registry. 

I have a SPB filly with a QH parent. She looks exactly like her sire, although her mother was a Tovero, so if bred to color, she can throw another Tovero since she carries both genes. Lol, if APHA was only a registry for color, they wouldn't allow you to breed to QH's and TB's, they should do away with that if they don't want to register the SPB's in the bunch. Even homozygous horses can mess up and throw a solid foal. Depends on how the genes hook up on the Dam's side.


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## close2prfct (Mar 9, 2009)

I think one of the most important pros to BS Paints is a horse cannot be homozygous for the Overo pattern which so many people want. Also from all the reading I have been doing( and it's a lot!) the best way to produce the overo pattern is to breed an overo or even tobiano to a BS paint since all breeding stock carry the right genes throw color.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

I think the color/pattern/breeding question and registry question are really two separate items. All the registries have fairly arbitrary rules (IMHO), and after all, the APHA only requires 2 inches of white (or color, for white horses) in the required area for the regular registry. From a visual color/pattern perspective, does a brown regular registry Paint with 2 inches of white on the belly really look any different than a solid Paint?


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## Skippy! (Dec 18, 2006)

Ooh, interesting thread.

I called the AQHA about registering Charity with them (Charity is a registered paint. Her sire is Reg. APH, and dam is Reg. AQH. Both are pure not appendix or anything).

They said no, because "Paints are a color breed". That is absolutely false. The PINTO horse association is a color breed, as the horses registered can be gaited, trotters, ponies, etc. the ONE thing they all must have in common is the COLOR. If the APH was a color breed, they wouldn't restrict registry to APH crossed with TB and AQH. The body type that the Paint horse is required to have needs to reflect that of a TB or AQH.

MY THOUGHTS.... so hear me out... Way back in time when ranchers were breeding their AQH every so often a baby would be produced with splashy white markings. This was looked upon as a defect in the herd, and reflected poorly on the ranch's quality of horses and the baby is unwanted solely due to color. Someone felt bad for these horses, because they were still GOOD horses, just flashier in color.. so they started the APHA. SO THEN............. fast forward to present days... APH breeders get a solid baby in their herd, and its looked upon as a defect, and it reflects poorly on the breeders quality of horses, and the baby is unwanted solely due to LACK of color.

SO.. my question is...

Isn't a Breeding Stock Paint just a Quarter Horse?! Both registries say No. But, i mean.. the breed standard HAS to be close, right?!! Both the AQHA and APHA use TBs to breed with their stock. And the APH uses ONLY the AQH and TB to make their breed.

My head huuuuuuuuuuuurts ;__;

I think there is a bunch of bad blood between the AQHA and APHA, after talking to both sides, lol. Buncha Grumpy Gus'! 

I am the proud owner of two Breeding Stock Paints  Charity and Skippy! <3 and PSST... Charity looks just like a AQH :O Skippy! has the wonky blaze, so he looks more like a Paint 

I think the reason they are called "Breeding Stock Paints" is because they may not have the color, but they have the build/conformation that a Paint horse should have. Therefore, if you breed a BSP to a Colored Paint with poor conformation, the baby will hopefully have color, AND the build of a Paint Horse.

Charity is what I would consider a BSP by my definition. She is Half paint and Half Quarter Horse... So she has the stronger, less diluted build of a AQH, and if bred to a stallion that is awesome in color, but poor in conformation, she may be able to "fix" it in the baby.

I really REALLY hope that makes sense, LOL! i confused myself a few times while writing it ^^;;;


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## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

Well I didn't read thru all the threads...

My thoughts. Paints should have color. That is really what sets them apart from a QH. I think people could have done alot of things different in the future (ex, not breeding AQHA to APHA) to pervent the amount of BS paints there is out there. 

I have nothing againts them and they are still wonderful beautiful animals, well most of them.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Wow this is an old thread. 

Thank you for all your thoughts! 
Skippy, I completely agree with you. If color is what sets a Paint apart from a QH, shouldn't a Paint have color?

Anyways, you have already heard my thoughts


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## alldun (Jan 18, 2009)

A SBP can carry their colour gene even though they don't exhibit it. This applies to both tobiano and overo.
Overo is the only colour pattern that can trace its roots to the AQHA bloodlines. The colour pattern is linked with the sabino gene.
Tobiano is a completely different colour pattern that is not seen or classified in the same genetic sense.
If your overo has even one tobiano 6-7 generations back there is no possible way of considering it QH regardless of whether there is colour or not.
I have seen SBP overo's bred to AQHA and fully papered APHA foals be the result--fully equipped with colour pattern.
Why should SBP stallions not be allowed to breed? If they have gone out and shown and proven themselves a champion how is it any harder to produce colour from them than using a SBP mare on a fully coloured stallion? In fact, many APHA breeders will utalize a SBP simply because the chances of getting colour back are significantly higher than using a coloured mare on a coloured stallion (I am talking about overos).


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

As an example we had a solid paint in barn once (came from auction). He was gelding, not stud, btw. However he was well build bright sorrel with 4 socks, narrow blaze and --very bright blue eyes--. Not that "pale" blue typical for most paints, but true deep darker blue. Very, VERY beautiful (was sold in no time of course). Personally I've never seen such red coat/blue eyes combo before or after (and the BO got lots of horses for sale in barn). I bet such color combo in foals + accomplishments in dam/sir would make babies to sell with no problem.


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