# A thought about breeding...



## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

This is just my personal opinion and I am interested in hearing others opinions.

I know the economy is poor right now and like most have no idea when it will pick back up again. Horses being considered a "luxury item" tend to be on of the first things people cut back on along with the other "luxury items. Personally, I don't consider them luxury, I learned a long time ago that horses in my life are almost as neccesary as breathing. 

So to the breeding issue. Many people say that responsible breeders should stop breeding due to the poor economy and the surplus of unwanted hroses. 
My opinion is that is if all the responsible breeders stop breeding that will only leave the irresponsible breeders breeding (because we know they are not going to stop), which will lead to a surplus of poorly bred horses in the future and little quality to build back upon once things turn around again.

Your thoughts?


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Total numbers need to be cut back. Good breeders shouldn't stop entirely; they should just limit the numbers produced, and strive to make the quality of their foal crop that much better.


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## DieselPony (Jul 26, 2010)

I agree with you that it does leave a lot of back yard breeders (you know, the stereo-typed ones that really suck, not the small time people who actually breed in their back yards, so please, don't jump on me for saying that) but the thing is, the responsible breeders are still having foals that are still worth a lot. So I don't think that they should stop breeding all together.

There seems to be two categories of horses being bred: the expensive, top quality performance horses, and then the "average" horse, registered or not.

The "average" horses are what need to be stopped being bred. So you could have a completely responsible breeder only breeding one fairly well built, well bred horse a year that is going to be sold to the average rider. Those and the lesser horses are what I feel should not be bred anymore.

It would help if the mindset of "I don't need the best of the best for just trail riding/whatever lower-end division" was lost. And I know there are arguments about those who can't afford the best of the best horses. But supply and demand laws will come into play, sure it wont be next year, or even the next 5 years before the prices drop on the best of the best horses, but after that adjustment period there will be much better bred/conformed horses for the price of the "average" horse now days.

That's my opinion I guess. I also totally think that BYBs will jump on the best of the best horse band wagon as soon as the settling mind set is lost. They are out to make a buck after all.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I wish more people who have sub par horses or breed for the wrong reasons would stop. There are a lot of these type of horses out there and then you add in the well bred that are culled from different programs there is a good supply for the average market.

I know that If I did not have a market for what I breed I would not be doing it even with the quality of horses I have. For me there is a good market and in reality talking to quite a few people there is a shortage b/c the responsible breeders who have the better stock have cut back yet the demand is still there. B/C of this the prices have continued to go up.


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## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

I'm glad to see I'm not the only person that feels this way..... 


I have never understood the breeding of "grade" horses. They don't add any value to the horse industry and to me, it's just asking for conformation issues which turn into vast medical expenses because the horse is now unsound. I once had a converstation with a "backyard breeder" (like DesielPony described) who said he bred his mare, who was very VERY badly put together, because she has a "good mind". So he bought a grade stud that wasn't built any better (and got a "great price!"... imagine that?!) and had the most worthless little colt I have ever seen. He's sway backed, post legged and has horribly narrow and tall withers (he'll never be able to hold a saddle, not even an Arab saddle!) but he's "a good lead line horse for the grandkids". He poor horse is only 3 years old and already unsound! 
My answer to his story: Why didn't you just invest in one horse that was conformationally correct, with the bloodlines for the dicipline you wanted to work (which is where you get a "good mind" for whatever you want to do), you are going to put as much money into three worthless horses as you would of buying and keeping one GOOD horse. He actually said "I never thought of it that way." :shock:


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I'd rather see quality grades bred than poorly-conformed registered stock, honestly.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

And to add to bubbas point...

At one point in time, the breeds we like were grade horses, until the breed was standardized with traits and such.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

I think theoretically it is a valid point. In practice however, the "we won't stop until they do" is a dangerous game plan.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

One of the problems with grade horses even ones with good conformation is how do you know if that horse is a fluke or not? What will the next generation bring to the table. Will it have the good conformation/traits or will the traits of others in the pedigree come out? With a grade horse you just do not know.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

You know my Dusty is a grade because his AQHA papers got lost in his shuffle of owners he was a trail riding out fit horse and everytime someone bought him they would eventually sell him back well after my auto accident life flashing before eyes event I set out with my settlement to buy a horse I could ride one I could get on and be safe so I looked at reg horses grade you name it then i thought a trail horse who hauled green riders around all day would be pretty safe I went picked from 3 rode one and the girl and her son rode the other two I got on Dusty and never got off lol that horse has taught me so much he has taken care of me countless times helped me thru some rough times in my life I can put anyone on him and he takes care of them. People tell me he's ugly and that he looks like a mule but to me he is priceless and beautiful he has allowed me to live out my dream.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> You know my Dusty is a grade because his AQHA papers got lost in his shuffle of owners he was a trail riding out fit horse and everytime someone bought him they would eventually sell him back well after my auto accident life flashing before eyes event I set out with my settlement to buy a horse I could ride one I could get on and be safe so I looked at reg horses grade you name it then i thought a trail horse who hauled green riders around all day would be pretty safe I went picked from 3 rode one and the girl and her son rode the other two I got on Dusty and never got off lol that horse has taught me so much he has taken care of me countless times helped me thru some rough times in my life I can put anyone on him and he takes care of them. People tell me he's ugly and that he looks like a mule but to me he is priceless and beautiful he has allowed me to live out my dream.


This is all great fine and dandy. I have not problems with grade horses. They make great horses. My problem is when people start breeding them.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> This is all great fine and dandy. I have not problems with grade horses. They make great horses. My problem is when people start breeding them.



I agree on that. LOL so what do yall think about mules?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I agree on that. LOL so what do yall think about mules?



They are ok I would never own one again.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> They are ok I would never own one again.



LOL are there reg. for them, all I know is she's going to have a career protecting calves and goats and some trail riding.


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## ilovemyPhillip (Apr 4, 2009)

The top breeders who actually have money, profit from their horses, and sell to OTHER people who have the money.. Shouldn't stop breeding. There is still a market for those types of horses.. Whether the average joe can afford them or not. 

While the "okay" breeders, who have generally nice stock, need to cut down. We can't make anyone stop or reduce. If they're making money, they're going to keep on doin' what they do.. Regardless of 'what's out there now'. 

While there are tons of grades, people still want them. Like said before, they shouldn't be bred.. But there's a decent demand. I have a grade (four actually) and they're nifty horses. The one I'm selling I got for $600 turned him around and (hopefully) selling for 3k. From where I'm at, if the horses can do the job, someone's going to buy it. Papers or not.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

I also think a broke broke horse always holds value with all these backyarders selling their stuff as green broke cause its had a saddle on and has been sat on most are willing to shell out more for the one thats going to be of use now.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Once a horse is trained and going well and is safe and sound it will have value regardless of registered or not. Now a well bred well trained horse will sell for more then one who is grade. However if you are looking at gelding to gelding then there is little difference unless you are wanting to show at the breed show level. Stallions and mares will always have more value if they are well bred well trained and registered.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> Once a horse is trained and going well and is safe and sound it will have value regardless of registered or not. Now a well bred well trained horse will sell for more then one who is grade. However if you are looking at gelding to gelding then there is little difference unless you are wanting to show at the breed show level. Stallions and mares will always have more value if they are well bred well trained and registered.


The guy I got my filly from has these really nicely bred horses and they are standing in a field rotting never handled just reproducing more unruly wild horses if I had the room I'd have bought a few more from him with when I got Bourbon she was a rearing never been messed with mess how many would have seen that and been gone...ha my husband wanted to be but I said no I want her project horse or not. That burns me up too if a horse has handling and is broke that makes them more marketable and less likely to end up in Canada or Mexico in a kill pen.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

ok here goes u do not ride paper or pedigree or even conformation for that matter i am the average owner i think..... Me and my family do not go to shows or eventing all we do is go on trail rides as a family and we could never afford the 2 or 3 thousand $ horse or own a great pedigree horse but we do have one that is a paint but the lady gave her to my daughter for helping in her barn for the summer he needed a good home and yes he is great looking boy but needs alot of training is scared of everything. My other 2 mares r grades 1 is appy other is arabXqh i think and they are the best horses you could ask for. there is too much of every thing in the world today too many people too many cats, dogs, no matter what you look at there is too much of it some well bred and others well not so much....Even ugly people that do not have great conformation have children...No offense to anyone as i am well not the best looking or have great conformation for that matter. In old days u had to meet standard to have children as well... I guess what i am saying is that some people breed for companionship and other just look at pedigree it has been that way for ever and will proble never change. You have 2 types of people the well off do and the not so well off but both deserve to own a horse and both can take just good care of them with or without big fancy barns or areana's come of us just love to hang out with our animals not there pedigree.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

> In old days you had to meet standard to have children as well...


What days where those?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

r0tts0nly said:


> ok here goes u do not ride paper or pedigree or even conformation for that matter i am the average owner i think..... Me and my family do not go to shows or eventing all we do is go on trail rides as a family and we could never afford the 2 or 3 thousand $ horse or own a great pedigree horse but we do have one that is a paint but the lady gave her to my daughter for helping in her barn for the summer he needed a good home and yes he is great looking boy but needs alot of training is scared of everything. My other 2 mares r grades 1 is appy other is arabXqh i think and they are the best horses you could ask for. there is too much of every thing in the world today too many people too many cats, dogs, no matter what you look at there is too much of it some well bred and others well not so much....Even ugly people that do not have great conformation have children...No offense to anyone as i am well not the best looking or have great conformation for that matter. In old days u had to meet standard to have children as well... I guess what i am saying is that some people breed for companionship and other just look at pedigree it has been that way for ever and will proble never change. You have 2 types of people the well off do and the not so well off but both deserve to own a horse and both can take just good care of them with or without big fancy barns or areana's come of us just love to hang out with our animals not there pedigree.


Again that is fine and dandy. Just do not breed them. That is all people are saying. Like it not Pedigrees tell you A LOT about a horse. Until you really get into breeding and ride a lot of different horses and such most people have a hard time understanding just what a pedigree can really give you and tell you about a horse.

That said if all you want is a companion there are a lot those type of horses out there. No need to be producing more.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> What days where those?


 Vicorian times u had to have good teeth good hair ect ect.... look it up it's true..


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> Again that is fine and dandy. Just do not breed them. That is all people are saying. Like it not Pedigrees tell you A LOT about a horse. Until you really get into breeding and ride a lot of different horses and such most people have a hard time understanding just what a pedigree can really give you and tell you about a horse.
> 
> That said if all you want is a companion there are a lot those type of horses out there. No need to be producing more.


My point I guess is that some breeders that breed none pedigreed horses do not have money on there mind and want to produce the nice average pet horse for the average person . I guess u have 2 types of breeders just like in dogs some breed for pedigree and some for pets is my point ....One is not better than the other or right for for that matter..... Eye is in the beholder for instance some people breed for halter and some breed for working they never agree on the standard either....lol

Same thing in dogs when i use to show my rottweilers i use to laugh at the others all they did was fight about which dog was the best and u had same thing there some breeders breed for working and some for show the two look like differnt breeds,,,,,lol


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## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

I"m sorry I wasn't clear. Not downing a grade horse. Just agreeing with nrhareiner, I don't believe they should be bred. 

I own 2 grade horses (a sale barn purchase and a Pinto Registered arabxpaint) and one is crippled and will NEVER leave my pasture even if he outlives me, but there again, they are both geldings... 

My believe is if there were no grade horses, then all the sweet "he's so wonderful, saved my life, etc..... " stories would still be just as relevant, they would just be a different horses. But as r0tts pointed out, that probably isn't ever going to change. As long as there are stupid people out to make a quick buck, there will always be a flaws in the horse industry or any other industry for that matter. There are some great horses that are nobodys.... (and I know some of you are thinking "well he's someone to me!") and that's fine, I just feel that the market would be much better and probably make some of those unaffordable, great pedigree horses much more attainable if there was a limit to the reproduction of the grade horse.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

r0tts0nly said:


> My point I guess is that some breeders that breed none pedigreed horses do not have money on there mind and want to produce the nice average pet horse for the average person . I guess u have 2 types of breeders just like in dogs some breed for pedigree and some for pets is my point ....One is not better than the other or right for for that matter..... Eye is in the beholder for instance some people breed for halter and some breed for working they never agree on the standard either....lol
> 
> *The thing is that there is no need or market for that matter for the first type of breeder you are talking about. There are plunty of culls from good programs, horses who for what ever reason lost their papers or just need a retirement home. There is no need to breed that type of horse. The are a dime a dozen literally.
> *
> Same thing in dogs when i use to show my rottweilers i use to laugh at the others all they did was fight about which dog was the best and u had same thing there some breeders breed for working and some for show the two look like differnt breeds,,,,,lol


This is why I right now as I type this have 11 foster dogs here. 3 are full bred dogs. From breeders who had the same mind set as you. Last month I placed 9 dogs 6 of those dogs where full bred dogs. There is no need to breed pets. You get plenty of pet quality dogs from show breeders.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> This is why I right now as I type this have 11 foster dogs here. 3 are full bred dogs. From breeders who had the same mind set as you. Last month I placed 9 dogs 6 of those dogs where full bred dogs. There is no need to breed pets. You get plenty of pet quality dogs from show breeders.


 
excuss me like me??? i have 3 champion rottweilers 2 dogs and a ***** and they have never had a litter. So hell just because they were finished ch. what i should breed them NO NO NO>>> My point is that people put too much on pedigree and registration and are very closed minded is all... not that i agree with it or not just stating the TRUTH in the matter. I do rott. rescue get 4 a month that i train fix and find loving forever homes if possible..I am known as the local dog rescue lady in the area and people bring or drop off dogs here all the time that i find homes for and i pay for it all..... please don't judge me just because i do not agree with you on the matter.


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## A knack for horses (Jun 17, 2010)

Crossover said:


> This is just my personal opinion and I am interested in hearing others opinions.
> 
> I know the economy is poor right now and like most have no idea when it will pick back up again. Horses being considered a "luxury item" tend to be on of the first things people cut back on along with the other "luxury items. Personally, I don't consider them luxury, I learned a long time ago that horses in my life are almost as neccesary as breathing.
> 
> ...


In all honesty, I don't think its the responsible breeders that need to stop. Its the backyard "I wantz a pweddy pohneh to lovez foreever" breeders that need to stop. 

As the horse industry stands now, there are too many horses and not enough homes. There are thousands of unwanted, neglected, and downright abused horses in our country (Most of which end up in these situations because the owners no longer have the means to care for a horse, the owners don't know the first thing about proper horse care, or the horses have no homes at all.) The reason for this is almost exclusively the fault of the recession and the fact that people are breeding horses when they shouldn't be breeding in the first place! :evil: This problem of equine surplus has gotten so bad that some states are considering opening up horse slaughterhouses just to deferr the cost of shipping these horses to Canada and Mexico.
While I strongly disagree with the slaughter of horses, I have come to accept is as a temporary nessicary evil. If horses weren't getting slaughtered, they'd end up abused and starved to death in a dirt lot.

I think we as the people of the horse industry need to get things back under control if we are ever going to get the supply/demand ratio back in balance. We need to try our hardest to discourage people from breeding horses that don't need to be bred. In the meantime, responsible breeders should breed just for the demand of their horses. And we need to push buying over breeding. Since horses can live to be over 30 years old, its going to take some time for things to shift back. But once the surplus slows, prices will increase and the horse market will start gaining some worth to it.


As far as the grade vs. papered argument, I believe papers don't mean sh*t. Yes, papers add value and can help in identifying possible health issues; but an outstanding horse is an outstanding horse, papered or not. Do I think every grade horse in the world is worthy of breeding? Heck no. And do I think every pedigreed horse is worthy of breeding? Absolutely not! But I've met a few grade horses that I'd rather own over their papered, fancy pedigreed competitiors any day.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

QUOTE I"m sorry I wasn't clear. Not downing a grade horse. Just agreeing with nrhareiner, I don't believe they should be bred. QUOTE.

then maybe all breeding should stop and we should take care of whats out there now instead of adding to it GOOD pedigree or NOT. Regardless of pedigree and breed or if its grade.

NOT RELISTIC but wishful thinking.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

My point is that there is no need to breed companion dogs or horses. I too show dogs and have several title dogs. Have not bred those dogs either. There is little need. For what it would cost me to breed one of my females I can go out and buy a well bred show prospect. I do breed horses for one big reason. I can not buy a prospect for the same price or even close to the same price I can breed on for. That can not be said for a lot of people who are breeding their horses.

My point is that pedigrees do make a difference. Most people just for what ever reason can not see that. One reason I have found for this over the years is b/c most people have never ridden a truly well bred well trained horse. So they have little to compare theirs too.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

r0tts0nly said:


> QUOTE I"m sorry I wasn't clear. Not downing a grade horse. Just agreeing with nrhareiner, I don't believe they should be bred. QUOTE.
> 
> then maybe all breeding should stop and we should take care of whats out there now instead of adding to it GOOD pedigree or NOT. Regardless of pedigree and breed or if its grade.
> 
> NOT RELISTIC but wishful thinking.


The problem with this is that you will end up cutting off your noise to spite your face kind of deal.

Think about all the jobs that are attached to the equine industry. If people stopped breeding quality horses there would be no young horses to start and train. So trainers would go under. Not all but most. Same with a lot of other parts of the support industry. Then there are all the shows. Then what happens when all the horses get older and there are non coming up to take their place? What about keeping lines and diverse genetics intact? There are so many reasons why good responsible breeders need to keep doing what they are doing and the others need to stop.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

A knack for horses said:


> As far as the grade vs. papered argument, I believe papers don't mean sh*t. Yes, papers add value and can help in identifying possible health issues; but an outstanding horse is an outstanding horse, papered or not.


Then why do we track earnings and points. Why do some lines produce reiners and cutter while others produce WP horses and Halter horses and if pedigrees mean nothing then why do you not see halter bred horses or WP bred horses winning the NRHA or NRCHA or the NCHA futurities?


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## A knack for horses (Jun 17, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> My point is that pedigrees do make a difference. Most people just for what ever reason can not see that. *One reason I have found for this over the years is b/c most people have never ridden a truly well bred well trained horse.* So they have little to compare theirs too.


I'm sorry, but I call baloney on that. Just because a horse isn't papered royalty and the isht, doesn't mean that it can't be a "well trained horse". When I started riding, I was riding some of the top horses in the NHSRA. Those horses were papered out the wazoo and brought home the cash. 

This past year I switched to a different instructor who owned a three year old grade pintoloosa mare. I rode her all over the trails and watched her kick rear end against _registered, expensive ranch horses _in sorting. She had a superb conformation and had the temperment to please. She was the bset **** trail horse I've ever ridden too.

If I was given the choice between one of my previous instructors papered horses and Maggie the grade, I'd choose Maggie. Why? Because she was the better horse. And papers didn't have a thing to do with it.


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## A knack for horses (Jun 17, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Then why do we track earnings and points. Why do some lines produce reiners and cutter while others produce WP horses and Halter horses and if pedigrees mean nothing then why do you not see halter bred horses or WP bred horses winning the NRHA or NRCHA or the NCHA futurities?


Papers don't make a horse excel in a disipline. Conformation, talent, and training do. The reason halter horses and western pleasure horses aren't in reining competitons is because 1) they aren't built for it and 2) they aren't trained for reining.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> My point is that there is no need to breed companion dogs or horses. I too show dogs and have several title dogs. Have not bred those dogs either. There is little need. For what it would cost me to breed one of my females I can go out and buy a well bred show prospect. I do breed horses for one big reason. I can not buy a prospect for the same price or even close to the same price I can breed on for. That can not be said for a lot of people who are breeding their horses.
> 
> My point is that pedigrees do make a difference. Most people just for what ever reason can not see that. One reason I have found for this over the years is b/c most people have never ridden a truly well bred well trained horse. So they have little to compare theirs too.


then u know first hand too great pedigrees do not always make show prospect or even close for that matter and as in dogs guess what the big show people do too there great show prospect when it doesn't turn out THEY MAKE IT A GRADE horse as too not register it and find it a pet home or worse send it to auction and try to take no blame in the matter as it is never traced back too them is my point. That all breeding needs to STOP and we need to take care of whats out there NOW not add to the problem and that the average person does not ride pedigree, color, pattern, registration that we love our grade horses and always will as we love our mutts or pure breeds. not judging anyone as u were trying to judge me,,,,,


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

A knack for horses said:


> I'm sorry, but I call baloney on that. Just because a horse isn't papered royalty and the isht, doesn't mean that it can't be a "well trained horse". When I started riding, I was riding some of the top horses in the NHSRA. Those horses were papered out the wazoo and brought home the cash.
> 
> This past year I switched to a different instructor who owned a three year old grade pintoloosa mare. I rode her all over the trails and watched her kick rear end against _registered, expensive ranch horses _in sorting. She had a superb conformation and had the temperment to please. She was the bset **** trail horse I've ever ridden too.
> 
> If I was given the choice between one of my previous instructors papered horses and Maggie the grade, I'd choose Maggie. Why? Because she was the better horse. And papers didn't have a thing to do with it.



The quetion is, is that horse the exception or the rule? I would say it is the exception. There are good grade horses I will not dispute that. However when it comes to breeding them you will never truly know what you are going to get.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

A knack for horses said:


> Papers don't make a horse excel in a disipline. Conformation, talent, and training do. The reason halter horses and western pleasure horses aren't in reining competitons is because 1) they aren't built for it and 2) they aren't trained for reining.



And ask your self why that is? Why do these horses have different types of conformation why are they not built to rein or cutt? B/c of their breeding and their pedigree.

Go and find your self a halter bred horse and try and train it to rein. There is a reason why people do not use halter bred horses and train them to rein. They are not built for it b/c they are not bred for it so they would have a very very hard time regardless of training to do what is needed to do well in reining or reined cow horse or cutting.


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## Katze (Feb 21, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> The problem with this is that you will end up cutting off your noise to spite your face kind of deal.
> 
> Think about all the jobs that are attached to the equine industry. If people stopped breeding quality horses there would be no young horses to start and train. So trainers would go under. Not all but most. Same with a lot of other parts of the support industry. Then there are all the shows. Then what happens when all the horses get older and there are non coming up to take their place? What about keeping lines and diverse genetics intact? There are so many reasons why good responsible breeders need to keep doing what they are doing and the others need to stop.


^ *clap* well said! 
I agree with the "crossing" of lines to add "new blood" to the mix of whatever pureblood the industry is trying to breed, I disagree with the "flavor of the month" mind set. I see soooo many pre-teen to adult women who are freaking out over this years flavor "the draft x" because it's *omgsooopurtymewants*

Breeding programs of every kind (horse, dog ,cat etc..) should be better monitored. There should be better rules in place and a cut off point as to how many animals can be bred a year. That would take care of the problem, but let's face it folks, thats also never going to happen.

So until it does we will be stuck with backyard breeders popping out those foals for the good of the allmighty dollar i.e thier wallet.

Yes i'm definetly a pureblood pro grade no, and to most of you I look like a snob, but theres a reason for papers, I would prefer knowing where my animal comes from, what genetic defaults he/she is prone to, and what if any possible illnesses he/she might have in thier old age (or as a youngster). I will never buy a cross, grade, mutt whatever you want to call it, I hate surprises especially the bad ones.:evil:


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## A knack for horses (Jun 17, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> The quetion is, is that horse the exception or the rule? I would say it is the exception. There are good grade horses I will not dispute that. However when it comes to breeding them you will never truly know what you are going to get.


And how do you know what you are going to get the first time you breed a papered horse?

Its the same principle. I never said that every grade horse out there is worth its weight in gold, but I'm saying that being grade isn't a reason to automatically throw a horse aside and call it "unworthy". To that effect, I've seen a couple papered horses out there that I wouldn't pay more that $50 for.

Breeding is a huge resposibility, but just because a horse is papered does not mean that it is an automatic diamond and deserves to be bred over a much higher quality grade.


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## A knack for horses (Jun 17, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> And ask your self why that is? Why do these horses have different types of conformation why are they not built to rein or cutt? B/c of their breeding and their pedigree.
> 
> Go and find your self a halter bred horse and try and train it to rein. There is a reason why people do not use halter bred horses and train them to rein. They are not built for it b/c they are not bred for it so they would have a very very hard time regardless of training to do what is needed to do well in reining or reined cow horse or cutting.


And did looking at a pedigree tell you this, or the fact that the horse just isn't designed to do the job?

If you breed a grade horse and it turns out to be built like a halter horse, I can tell you its not going to be a reining horse. Why? because of the conformation and movement, not because of the papers.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> The problem with this is that you will end up cutting off your noise to spite your face kind of deal.
> 
> Think about all the jobs that are attached to the equine industry. If people stopped breeding quality horses there would be no young horses to start and train. So trainers would go under. Not all but most. Same with a lot of other parts of the support industry. Then there are all the shows. Then what happens when all the horses get older and there are non coming up to take their place? What about keeping lines and diverse genetics intact? There are so many reasons why good responsible breeders need to keep doing what they are doing and the others need to stop.


Yes i understand your point in the end it all comes down to MONEY and econmy. People in the end always end up on top and the animals well u know for first hand where they stand.... I have learned never judge anyone for what they decide to do breed for pedigree or just your average horse we r not worthy of judment unto others.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

r0tts0nly said:


> then u know first hand too great pedigrees do not always make show prospect or even close for that matter and as in dogs guess what the big show people do too there great show prospect when it doesn't turn out THEY MAKE IT A GRADE horse as too not register it and find it a pet home or worse send it to auction and try to take no blame in the matter as it is never traced back too them is my point. That all breeding needs to STOP and we need to take care of whats out there NOW not add to the problem and that the average person does not ride pedigree, color, pattern, registration that we love our grade horses and always will as we love our mutts or pure breeds. not judging anyone as u were trying to judge me,,,,,



Not sure where you get that I am judging you. I am simply stating facts. There are to many people who use the excuse that good registered animals are too expensive. That there are people who what this or that so they will breed for that low end market. Problem is that there are already animals out there that fit that need. There is no need to bred more.

You will need to define average. I find that I fit into the average person area. However I do not wish to settle for average. I want the best prospect I can get. For me that is breeding. However if you are talking average weekend trail rider who just wants to enjoy their horse. Then that is different. Thing is that you do not need to go out and breed for that market. There are plenty of horses out here for them to pick from.

I also think you are way off when you say breeders who breed for show prospects sell their culls as grade. I have yet to find a breeder who breeds good stock do that. Even a cull from a good program will be very nice even if it dose not make an open level show horse. There are a lot of culls from top programs who go on to make great non pro and youth horses. These horses are sold with their papers b/c they command a better price that way.


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## Katze (Feb 21, 2011)

People don't just breed "for pedigree", they breed for quality. Not every foal that hits the ground is going to be a GP god, there is the scale of ok-> to omg great in every breed. The difference between breeding grade and breeding a pureblood is that its like playing russian roulette, when you breed two grade horses you DON'T know what your going to get.

I'm not saying that all grade horses are garbage, there are fantastic grade horses as there are fantastic purebloods, BUT when it comes to breeding you have a higher chance of getting what you expect from breeding two of the same kind versus breeding two grades crossing your fingers and spitting in the wind.

This is a debate that will never end, there will be pro for purebreed only and pro grade as long as there are people around to carry that torch.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

A knack for horses said:


> And how do you know what you are going to get the first time you breed a papered horse?
> 
> *How do I know I am going to get a reining horse when I breed to reining horses? B/C every horse on their papers are proven reining horses the sire is a proven reining horse and the dam is a proven reining horse. So the chances are very very good that I will get a good reining horse.*
> 
> ...


Again I agree that not all registered horses should be bred. I just do not see a need to breed grade horses.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

A knack for horses said:


> And did looking at a pedigree tell you this, or the fact that the horse just isn't designed to do the job?
> 
> *You can look at a pedigree and have a very good idea what the horse is going to look like. You are arguing which came first the chicken or the egg.
> 
> ...


Thing is if you are breeding for a reining horse then why would you want to take the chance of getting one that looks like a halter horse and can not do the job in which you intended?

Again papers will tell you what that horse should do. Again there will be exceptions to the rule but in the end the rule will win out many many more times then the exception. Then you come to the next generation with the exception to the rule. What will the next generation look like and perform like? The exception or will it revert back to the rule? That is the rub right there.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

u were judging me saying that people with my mind set ..... we will agree to disagree in my eyes all breeders are adding to the problems just because they think they have something that they don't or have to have the best out there, and if we would take care of what's out there now and stop adding to the huge problem regardless if u breed for pedigree or are a byb. i am average weekend trail horse rider as is my whole family and none of us would ever think about breeding our horses graded or champions....y add to the problem and there r some awsome grade horses out there that will blow most Champions out of the water..... Papers don't mean anything to me and as long as there is no law set in place to how many times a breeder can breed a year regardless of registration or not then this argument is pointless maybe we need to talk to higher up people that can do something about it.


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## A knack for horses (Jun 17, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Again I agree that not all registered horses should be bred. I just do not see a need to breed grade horses.


I don't see a need to be breeding papered horses. Why? Because a horse should be bred because of the quality of the animal, not because a horse has a 8 and a half by 11 inch sheet of paper with its lineage on it. 

If I had identical twin horses who were exactly the same down to each individual hair on their bodies except one was papered and one wasn't, I'd want the registered horse. I know there is an advantage to a horse being papered, but that does not mean that papers are the gateway to making an okay horse sheer royalty.

And yes, papers help you see what possible outcomes of foals are. But again, thats all just possibility. You can have an amazingly papered horse that throws less than desirable foals. But you can also have a grade that makes superior offspring.

If I were to breed two horses together, I would be looking at temperment, conformation and ability. While yes, I'd rather breed a papered horse seeing as how that "magically" gives some horses more monetary value than it should (though in some cases the extra value is completely worthy to give in my opinion), breeding a superior grade isn't the end of the world. 

On the other hand, breeding a poorly conformed, sickly grade pasture pet to the "handsome stallwon" next door is unacceptable. I will never condone poor breeding choices. But I believe just because a horse has no papers isn't a reason not to breed them, *IF* they are of breeding quality.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

Katze said:


> People don't just breed "for pedigree", they breed for quality. Not every foal that hits the ground is going to be a GP god, there is the scale of ok-> to omg great in every breed. The difference between breeding grade and breeding a pureblood is that its like playing russian roulette, when you breed two grade horses you DON'T know what your going to get.
> 
> I'm not saying that all grade horses are garbage, there are fantastic grade horses as there are fantastic purebloods, BUT when it comes to breeding you have a higher chance of getting what you expect from breeding two of the same kind versus breeding two grades crossing your fingers and spitting in the wind.
> 
> This is a debate that will never end, there will be pro for purebreed only and pro grade as long as there are people around to carry that torch.


I agree 100% but which one is WRONG??? 

When i look at a horse that is what i c is a horse some r great and some not so great I don't c registration or pedigree. But i do not show I guess if i showed I would look at pedigree and looks but most off would look at temperment.

Grade or Pedigreed i c a HORSE.

Would like to know how many of us r trail riders or show people here?


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## A knack for horses (Jun 17, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Thing is if you are breeding for a reining horse then why would you want to take the chance of getting one that looks like a halter horse and can not do the job in which you intended?
> 
> Again papers will tell you what that horse should do. Again there will be exceptions to the rule but in the end the rule will win out many many more times then the exception. Then you come to the next generation with the exception to the rule. What will the next generation look like and perform like? The exception or will it revert back to the rule? That is the rub right there.


How did people start making halter horse lines? They put those horses in halter classes and they won. So they bred those horses to other winning horses to get halter horses. So when you started to look at papers you could see that "Oh, that horse has a lot of big halter names in it. Then this horse must start turning out halter horses."


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

You know a side from the grade breeders you know who really needs to slow down the TB and QH industry but the TB industry is by far the worse. QH's can go on to other careers if they arent good at one thing the TB people dump them like yesterdays trash if they dont run and hell even if they do run but break down. I will also say that some horses may be bred for one thing but excel at something else, my farrier is big in barrel racing and pole bending there is a farm close they breed WP and he bought a colt and that colt has been to world it went reserve QH congress I believe he took 1st.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

A knack for horses said:


> How did people start making halter horse lines? They put those horses in halter classes and they won. So they bred those horses to other winning horses to get halter horses. So when you started to look at papers you could see that "Oh, that horse has a lot of big halter names in it. Then this horse must start turning out halter horses."



Halter horses and lines changed after Impressive. Halter was more of a side note until then. Horses showed in several events and then would also show in halter. 

Yes they breed winning halter horses to winning halter horses to get halter lines. Same with Reining same with Cutting. This just proves my point. If pedigree was not important you would not see these trends. You would see other lines crossing over into other events and you do not. If it was all about training then you would see big time owners going out and just picking up cheap yearlings and sending them to trainers like Shawn and they would be winning. Think about it. If it just training and say conformation then why do people pay so much for a reining or cutting prospect? They could go and buy a $500 prospect and save all that money. So ask yourself why they do not?

Also ask yourself why so many people ask about how easy a horse is to train and the minds of certain lines. Why are cutting bred horses hard to keep honest in the reining pen and reining bred horses are not? All trained the same way yet one is easy to keep honest and the other is not.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> You know a side from the grade breeders you know who really needs to slow down the TB and QH industry but the TB industry is by far the worse. QH's can go on to other careers if they arent good at one thing the TB people dump them like yesterdays trash if they dont run and hell even if they do run but break down. I will also say that some horses may be bred for one thing but excel at something else, my farrier is big in barrel racing and pole bending there is a farm close they breed WP and he bought a colt and that colt has been to world it went reserve QH congress I believe he took 1st.



I can not speak for the TB but QH registration is at its lowest point since the mid 70's


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## Katze (Feb 21, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> Also ask yourself why so many people ask about how easy a horse is to train and the minds of certain lines. *Why are cutting bred horses hard to keep honest in the reining pen and reining bred horses are not? All trained the same way yet one is easy to keep honest and the other is not*.


*off topic* sorry, what does "keep honest" mean? (english saddle rider here lol)


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> I can not speak for the TB but QH registration is at its lowest point since the mid 70's


Well these two are the largest but I am referring to the number of horses put on the ground year after year. The TB mess is in my backyard so to speak, how many of those quarter horses are turned into grade horses because breeders are too cheap to reg. them .


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Well these two are the largest but I am referring to the number of horses put on the ground year after year. The TB mess is in my backyard so to speak, how many of those quarter horses are turned into grade horses because breeders are too cheap to reg. them .


 
That was my point the whole time ty ty ty i know of 3 breeders here in Alabama that do this.

They never register the foal because it is unworthy and guess what that makes them grade....

I think all breeders add to the over population regardless of registration or not.

all horses are pregnate for the same amount of time little over 11 months or so.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Katze said:


> *off topic* sorry, what does "keep honest" mean? (english saddle rider here lol)



Means the horse is not cheating and trying to guess where the rider wants them to go. I want to set a coarse for the horse and I do not want them to change that direction until I ask them too. That is an honest horse. Then there are the ones who think they know where you want to go and will go try and go there before you ask. Those horses are not honest. They like to cheat.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> I can not speak for the TB but QH registration is at its lowest point since the mid 70's


 
We are not talking about just one or two breeds here, we are talking about all horses and ponies ect. ect. ect. 

That was my point we need to look at all breeds and breeders rather they are twh or qh. all breeds.

Look at the overwhelming picture.

That is why I say that when i look at a horse that is what I see is a horse not if it's registrated or not it all contributes to the huge problem.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Well these two are the largest but I am referring to the number of horses put on the ground year after year. The TB mess is in my backyard so to speak, how many of those quarter horses are turned into grade horses because breeders are too cheap to reg. them .



The numbers of horses who do not get registered is hard to say. The thing is that AQHA is not very expensive to register a horse. You will find that there are more whos owners for what ever reason just do not transfer ownership. Those are the ones I really hate. I would love to just go and kick all their rears on that one. Comes from the mind set that papers are not important. Then the papers get lost b/c the owner does not care enough about the horse to transfer them and keep track of them and then something happens and they have to sell the horse but can not find the papers can not remember the old owners name and so on so now the horse is grade. Really ticks me off to no end.

Horses I breed the average price has go up 18% last year from the year before and was up that year also. There is still a very good market for well bred registered prospects.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

r0tts0nly said:


> We are not talking about just one or two breeds here, we are talking about all horses and ponies ect. ect. ect.
> 
> That was my point we need to look at all breeds and breeders rather they are twh or qh. all breeds.
> 
> ...


That is all find and dandy and there is a place for people who want to do that. It give horses who need a home one. However these horses would not work for what I do. I breed for one simple reason. I can not buy a prospect for the same price I can breed one for. My horses pay their own way. They have to. Like it or not they are there for a purpose. Do not get me wrong. I love my horses they are spoiled rotten and are allowed to be horses but they also have a job and they love their job big time.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> Means the horse is not cheating and trying to guess where the rider wants them to go. I want to set a coarse for the horse and I do not want them to change that direction until I ask them too. That is an honest horse. Then there are the ones who think they know where you want to go and will go try and go there before you ask. Those horses are not honest. They like to cheat.


Is that cheating or trainer error? I see horses whose riders do the same every ride start to finish and the horses get accustomed to that and anticipate every move because its what they always do. I change up every ride so mine dont get in a pattern but the one thing I do every ride is I will flex my horse side to side just so he expects that when I swing my leg over his back we will not move until the flexing is done since he was a trail horse he was used to just taking off at a walk before rider was settled and I use this to thwart that bad habit.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> Means the horse is not cheating and trying to guess where the rider wants them to go. I want to set a coarse for the horse and I do not want them to change that direction until I ask them too. That is an honest horse. Then there are the ones who think they know where you want to go and will go try and go there before you ask. Those horses are not honest. They like to cheat.


Wow been there....Not with a horse though

Took me over 1 year to get my rottweiler girls CD she would do the whole exercise without me....lol hell she didn't even need me in the ring with her.

Was very frustrating...

It's amazing that dogs and horses have alot of the same training tech.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Is that cheating or trainer error? I see horses whose riders do the same every ride start to finish and the horses get accustomed to that and anticipate every move because its what they always do. I change up every ride so mine dont get in a pattern but the one thing I do every ride is I will flex my horse side to side just so he expects that when I swing my leg over his back we will not move until the flexing is done since he was a trail horse he was used to just taking off at a walk before rider was settled and I use this to thwart that bad habit.



Yes and no. It does have something to do with trainer error but even with good training and mixing things up some lines of horses are just bred to think. Cutting bred horses are bred to think and reiners are bred to follow. So it is much easier to keep a reiner honest then it is a cutting bred horse. I have owned both and have had reiners for about 15+ years. So I know what it takes to keep a horse honest. The cutting bred horses I have had have been harder to keep honest then the reining bred horses. Just a difference in how and why they have been bred for generations. This is one more reason why looking at pedigrees is so important.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

r0tts0nly said:


> We are not talking about just one or two breeds here, we are talking about all horses and ponies ect. ect. ect.
> 
> That was my point we need to look at all breeds and breeders rather they are twh or qh. all breeds.
> 
> ...


Ha don't get me started on the TWH breeders, trainers and shows the TWHBEA in my opinion is the biggest supporter of horse abuse and are the biggest joke in the horse world.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

r0tts0nly said:


> Wow been there....Not with a horse though
> 
> Took me over 1 year to get my rottweiler girls CD she would do the whole exercise without me....lol hell she didn't even need me in the ring with her.
> 
> ...



They really do. I use a lot of the same things on both when it comes to training. My Golden has 3 AKC titles by the time she was a year old. She is a very fast learner. Some times too fast.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> Yes and no. It does have something to do with trainer error but even with good training and mixing things up some lines of horses are just bred to think. Cutting bred horses are bred to think and reiners are bred to follow. So it is much easier to keep a reiner honest then it is a cutting bred horse. I have owned both and have had reiners for about 15+ years. So I know what it takes to keep a horse honest. The cutting bred horses I have had have been harder to keep honest then the reining bred horses. Just a difference in how and why they have been bred for generations. This is one more reason why looking at pedigrees is so important.


Ha so Bourbon is going to be confused not knowing if she wants to lead or follow


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> That is all find and dandy and there is a place for people who want to do that. It give horses who need a home one. However these horses would not work for what I do. I breed for one simple reason. I can not buy a prospect for the same price I can breed one for. My horses pay their own way. They have to. Like it or not they are there for a purpose. Do not get me wrong. I love my horses they are spoiled rotten and are allowed to be horses but they also have a job and they love their job big time.


Yes I understand what you are saying. 
In the future when I need a new show prospect I will breed my ***** instead of buying one.
so i do understand where you are coming from but you do not breed your animals time after time and you are like me I breed for myself not to please someone else. 
You know your animals and know what you want but not everyone is like that with or without registration.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

r0tts0nly said:


> Yes I understand what you are saying.
> In the future when I need a new show prospect I will breed my ***** instead of buying one.
> so i do understand where you are coming from but you do not breed your animals time after time and you are like me I breed for myself not to please someone else.
> You know your animals and know what you want but not everyone is like that with or without registration.


Once my mares become broodmares they get bred about every year unless I need to back them up. I sell several prospects to pay for the one I may keep. The first 2 foals out of my one mare paid for 5 years of training and showing. There is a good market for what I do. If there was not I would not breed as it would not pay to do so. This is the same with all the breeders I now. The ones who do not make any money and have a hard time selling their young horses yet keep breeding are the one who are 1) breeding crap, 2) are breeding unregistered horses some crap and some not. People just do not want to pay much for a grade foal. Once they are well trained that price will go up a bit but will be unlikely to be enough to cover the cost of getting the horse there.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Ha don't get me started on the TWH breeders, trainers and shows the TWHBEA in my opinion is the biggest supporter of horse abuse and are the biggest joke in the horse world.


Biggest mistake I ever made was getting a TWH she was an ex show horse and everyone told me that they were such great trail horses ect ect. 

I got one and omg I was so intiminated by this horse she had a one track mind and that was forward motion nothing else. 
Not saying that there is anything wrong with that but just was not what I needed.

I am a control freak and there was no controling her she was very well trained but too much horse for me, I was the problem not the horse.

I always had qh type horses and was not use to there mind set.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

r0tts0nly said:


> Biggest mistake I ever made was getting a TWH she was an ex show horse and everyone told me that they were such great trail horses ect ect.
> 
> I got one and omg I was so intiminated by this horse she had a one track mind and that was forward motion nothing else.
> Not saying that there is anything wrong with that but just was not what I needed.
> ...


My first horse was a ex big lick walker he was sored and he must have been a winner in the ring because he showed from a colt into his early teens but their methods left him crippled and lame I hate them they do such horrid things to those horses all in the name of money and ribbons.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> Once my mares become broodmares they get bred about every year unless I need to back them up. I sell several prospects to pay for the one I may keep. The first 2 foals out of my one mare paid for 5 years of training and showing. There is a good market for what I do. If there was not I would not breed as it would not pay to do so. This is the same with all the breeders I now. The ones who do not make any money and have a hard time selling their young horses yet keep breeding are the one who are 1) breeding crap, 2) are breeding unregistered horses some crap and some not. People just do not want to pay much for a grade foal. Once they are well trained that price will go up a bit but will be unlikely to be enough to cover the cost of getting the horse there.


Is that not hard on horses to breed them year after year...... 

Not sure as I am not a horse breeder but just love babies will be getting a foal in a year or so and yes it will proble be grade.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

r0tts0nly said:


> Is that not hard on horses to breed them year after year......
> 
> Not sure as I am not a horse breeder but just love babies will be getting a foal in a year or so and yes it will proble be grade.



NO horses are made to have foals every year. If the mare can not handle it they will not get in-foal or stay in-foal no matter how much you try.

Have no problem with people buying a grade horse for the most part. My problem is that it encourages the breeder of that grade foal to keep breeding. The cost of buying a horse/foal is the least amount of money you will pay. It cost me no more money to keep my money earning daughter of Dun It then it does to keep a puck do nothing horse. In the long run I bet it actually cost me less.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> NO horses are made to have foals every year. If the mare can not handle it they will not get in-foal or stay in-foal no matter how much you try.
> 
> Have no problem with people buying a grade horse for the most part. My problem is that it encourages the breeder of that grade foal to keep breeding. The cost of buying a horse/foal is the least amount of money you will pay. It cost me no more money to keep my money earning daughter of Dun It then it does to keep a puck do nothing horse. In the long run I bet it actually cost me less.


So are other aninals but does not mean that they need to be bred everytime......


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

r0tts0nly said:


> So are other aninals but does not mean that they need to be bred everytime......


Cows pretty much spend their entire lives pregnant because they are either producing meat or milk.


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

We need good breeders so we can continue having top quality horses. I think it'd be stupid to stop breeding entirely, especially since the highest quality animals tend to be marketable, even in hard times. 

It's the irresponsible breeders and owners who should be held accountable. They are the ones keeping kill buyers in business. In my not-so-humble opinion, horse ownership should require a license, as it should with ANY animal that requires specialized care and knowledge.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Jessabel said:


> We need good breeders so we can continue having top quality horses. I think it'd be stupid to stop breeding entirely, especially since the highest quality animals tend to be marketable, even in hard times.
> 
> It's the irresponsible breeders and owners who should be held accountable. They are the ones keeping kill buyers in business. In my not-so-humble opinion, horse ownership should require a license, as it should with ANY animal that requires specialized care and knowledge.


Good breeders breeding top quality horses the tb industry is a crap shoot you can breed the two fastest TB's and the foal may or may not be blessed then the not so blessed baby ends up in a feed lot these farms are the best of the best and they are putting hundreds of foals on the ground every year how many of them actually make a triple crown prospect.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

Jessabel said:


> We need good breeders so we can continue having top quality horses. I think it'd be stupid to stop breeding entirely, especially since the highest quality animals tend to be marketable, even in hard times.
> 
> It's the irresponsible breeders and owners who should be held accountable. They are the ones keeping kill buyers in business. In my not-so-humble opinion, horse ownership should require a license, as it should with ANY animal that requires specialized care and knowledge.


don't agree it's the breeders that should require a licence.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Cows pretty much spend their entire lives pregnant because they are either producing meat or milk.


Yes at our expense but we do not eat horses or milk them....


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

r0tts0nly said:


> don't agree it's the breeders that should require a licence.



Neither will never happen not in this country anyways.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

Jessabel said:


> We need good breeders so we can continue having top quality horses. I think it'd be stupid to stop breeding entirely, especially since the highest quality animals tend to be marketable, even in hard times.
> 
> It's the irresponsible breeders and owners who should be held accountable. They are the ones keeping kill buyers in business. In my not-so-humble opinion, horse ownership should require a license, as it should with ANY animal that requires specialized care and knowledge.


Yes but ever breeder out there think they r the best and turn there heads at flaws, Regardless all breeders turn there heads at the big picture we all need to take care of whats out there now.........


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

r0tts0nly said:


> Yes at our expense but we do not eat horses or milk them....


LOL I beg to differ hence the feed lots and the nurse mare farms.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Neither will never happen not in this country anyways.


Exacty y i think this is pointless.

if u are so concerned then stop adding to the problem just because there is a market and take care of the problem.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> LOL I beg to differ hence the feed lots and the nurse mare farms.


ok well here in USA we do not eat horse or milk our horses for our need...

Yes in differnt parts of the world do but we do not.

Do not know what a nurse mare farm is.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

r0tts0nly said:


> don't agree it's the breeders that should require a licence.



Why it will not change a darn thing. The breeders who do it correctly will get the license which will drive up the cost of producing good quality horses and make those horses even more out of range for the vast majority of people and the people breeding crap will keep on doing it with out a license.

By the time I put a foal on the ground and register it and pay it up in all the things that we do for my discipline I have enough into my foals. They are quality foals if they where not I would not be getting the price I am getting for them and they would not be going to show homes like they are.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

r0tts0nly said:


> Yes but ever breeder out there think they r the best and turn there heads at flaws, Regardless all breeders turn there heads at the big picture we all need to take care of whats out there now.........



This is where proving your breeding stock comes into play. It is not just my opinion that what I have is quality but that of judges who my horses are shown in fornt of. Their earnings other breeders and most importantly the buyers who pay good money for them before they hit the ground. This year is the first time I have breed a mare and the foal has not already been sold.

The problem with this take care of what is out there now is that you MUST continue to produce good stock or you will end up hurting the breed down the road. Not to mention the entire industry.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

r0tts0nly said:


> ok well here in USA we do not eat horse or milk our horses for our need...
> 
> Yes in differnt parts of the world do but we do not.
> 
> Do not know what a nurse mare farm is.


Horses here are bought to be resold to the meat man and a nurse mare farm is where they breed a mare to get her milk sometimes they allow the foal to live most times they kill them, so mares are bred for milking they milk the mares for colostrum banks and some will put those well bred tb foals on them so the mare can go back to racing.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Horses here are bought to be resold to the meat man and a nurse mare farm is where they breed a mare to get her milk sometimes they allow the foal to live most times they kill them, so mares are bred for milking they milk the mares for colostrum banks and some will put those well bred tb foals on them so the mare can go back to racing.


 
OMG that is just wrong


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

There have been threads on nurse mares - most "info" out there is PETA misinformation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> This is where proving your breeding stock comes into play. It is not just my opinion that what I have is quality but that of judges who my horses are shown in fornt of. Their earnings other breeders and most importantly the buyers who pay good money for them before they hit the ground. This year is the first time I have breed a mare and the foal has not already been sold.
> 
> The problem with this take care of what is out there now is that you MUST continue to produce good stock or you will end up hurting the breed down the road. Not to mention the entire industry.


I know of one QH breeder who puts several foals on the ground a year but imo she is the best in the business and her foals are always top quality and go far in every thing they do.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I know of one QH breeder who puts several foals on the ground a year but imo she is the best in the business and her foals are always top quality and go far in every thing they do.



That is the type of people who need to keep breeding.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

JustDressageIt said:


> There have been threads on nurse mares - most "info" out there is PETA misinformation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



**** this crud goes on whether you believe it or not Ky is the capital of the nurse mare farm, theres a farm not 20 miles from me who does this...I hate PETA so I have never read anything that they have published.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> That is the type of people who need to keep breeding.


I agree the QH industry would be hurt if she were to quit and someday I'm gonna make it to Texas and buy one


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I really don't want to derail the conversation to another controversial topic, but I would encourage you to search that topic on this BB even - there's a lot of myths out there in regards to nurse mares and others such as PMU mares.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> **** this crud goes on whether you believe it or not Ky is the capital of the nurse mare farm, theres a farm not 20 miles from me who does this...I hate PETA so I have never read anything that they have published.



This is the problem with the way the TB industry works. Since they do not allow ETs you have a need for a nurse mare if you want to send the mare back to the track. Same with Shipped semen. Why do you think that you do not see consistency with TB when it comes to racing? B/C of the way that the TB industry works. In reality they claim to do it to keep diversity in the gene pool. Things is that is not really what is happening. They are only localizing it.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

r0tts0nly said:


> we all need to take care of whats out there now.........


You keep saying this but answer me this question. Why should I have to "Take care of" a horse who will never pay be back what I have into in training? Will never do what I want out of a horse? Why should I have to settle for some train wreck of a horse when I can breed quality horses who excel in what they are bred for? Why should I have to give up an Aged event b/c there are no more quality young horses to show? B/C I should only care about what is out there vs. breeding the next generation? They win to the point that I come home with more money then I left the house with.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> You keep saying this but answer me this question. Why should I have to "Take care of" a horse who will never pay be back what I have into in training? Will never do what I want out of a horse? Why should I have to settle for some train wreck of a horse when I can breed quality horses who excel in what they are bred for? Why should I have to give up an Aged event b/c there are no more quality young horses to show? B/C I should only care about what is out there vs. breeding the next generation? They win to the point that I come home with more money then I left the house with.


Then don't act like you are not adding to huge problem.....

I rescue for the love of all breeds not just what I am interested in and get some rescues with great so called pedigree's.

In the end you do it for MONEY and that's it.....

I do not know you but you are indeed adding to the problem.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

r0tts0nly said:


> Then don't act like you are not adding to huge problem.....
> 
> I rescue for the love of all breeds not just what I am interested in and get some rescues with great so called pedigree's.
> 
> ...


How am I adding to the problem? What I breed has a market. The people who buy what I breed are NOT going to go and rescue a horse or by a no name train wreck down the street or a grade horse. Just not going to happen. SO what horses am I displacing? People who are not looking for this type of horse are not going to come and look at them. They are the ones who will go and rescue or buy a grade horse and that is great. However the market I breed for is not. Plane and simple.

Again I ask you. Why should I settle for a horse who no matter how much training I put into them will not do what I want to do with a horse? Why should I have to settle?

Yes I breed to make money. That is how I pay for my horses. I am of the mind that if you breed and do not make money or at the VERY least brake even then you should really re evaluate your stock or just quite. If you are truly breeding good well bred well conformed horses that are an improvement on their sire and dam you will make money.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> How am I adding to the problem? What I breed has a market. The people who buy what I breed are NOT going to go and rescue a horse or by a no name train wreck down the street or a grade horse. Just not going to happen. SO what horses am I displacing? People who are not looking for this type of horse are not going to come and look at them. They are the ones who will go and rescue or buy a grade horse and that is great. However the market I breed for is not. Plane and simple.
> 
> Again I ask you. Why should I settle for a horse who no matter how much training I put into them will not do what I want to do with a horse? Why should I have to settle?
> 
> Yes I breed to make money. That is how I pay for my horses. I am of the mind that if you breed and do not make money or at the VERY least brake even then you should really re evaluate your stock or just quite. If you are truly breeding good well bred well conformed horses that are an improvement on their sire and dam you will make money.


 
Not saying to settle that is not the issue it's over breeding

U do it for money and well so do the byb.

Have seen mustangs taken from the wild do most decplines just as good or even better than some of the pedigree horses.


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> I'd rather see quality grades bred than poorly-conformed registered stock, honestly.


Just scanning through and just had to ad my 'like' to this post. :wink:


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

In the end we can argue this matter till we are blue in the face and every senerio is unrealistic we will always have good breeders bad breeders and some people with good intentions but dont have a clue..... 

People with 30 Head of horses don't need to breed every mare just because they have good pedigree.

If we only breed for our selves and stop being money hungry would help the issue alot.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

r0tts0nly said:


> Not saying to settle that is not the issue it's over breeding
> 
> *If what I am breeding is over bred then why are the prices going up and not down? There are not enough well bred horses out there. Prices go up.*
> 
> ...


Show my one Mustang that has even entered the NRHA Futurity? Show my one who has even cracked the top 100 at any level of the NRHA. You would be hard pressed to find a grade horse at that level. Heck you would be hard pressed to find a grade even in the affiliate level. There are a few but they are very few and normally if the owners enjoy reining they end up buying a finished reiner with in a few years so they can move up.


Again there is a place and a time for the grade horses. I do not have a problem with people buying grade horses. I have a problem with people breeding grade horses.

Again I have a market for my horses. The colt that I have on the ground right now was sold a long time ago. Before the mare was ever bred. Again the people who buy this type of horse are not going to buy a mustang or a grade horse. SO again I ask what horses am I displacing by breeding my mares??


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

Though I have to say that I agree with the fact that horses should only be bred to improve the horse in general. No, personal attachments or anything. Only the betterment of the horse. Now, I personally don't mind mixing breeds, as long as they compliment each other and are becoming better for the breed. For example I love Appendix Quarters, and Shire sport horses (Shire/TB). But only when they are being bred for the purpose of creating a better, long lasting, sport horse. For example, I love the athleticism and stamina and movement of the TB but I want stronger bones for heavier work, and possibly the stronger hindquarters. So I support the breeding of those two, and these breeds I am looking into as my next horse.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> show my one mustang that has even entered the nrha futurity? Show my one who has even cracked the top 100 at any level of the nrha. You would be hard pressed to find a grade horse at that level. Heck you would be hard pressed to find a grade even in the affiliate level. There are a few but they are very few and normally if the owners enjoy reining they end up buying a finished reiner with in a few years so they can move up.
> 
> 
> Again there is a place and a time for the grade horses. I do not have a problem with people buying grade horses. I have a problem with people breeding grade horses.
> ...


till blue in the face!!!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

r0tts0nly said:


> People with 30 Head of horses don't need to breed every mare just because they have good pedigree.
> 
> *Why if those 30 head are well bred well conformed proven horses why not breed them? Again it comes down to market. There is still a GOOD market for that type of horse. Now if the 30 head are poor horses then I agree. Do not breed any of them ever.*
> 
> If we only breed for our selves and stop being money hungry would help the issue alot.



Why? How does this help anyone? What about the person who wants to move up in a give discipline and needs a prospect to do so? Where are they going to get that prospect? Not everyone can afford a NRHA/NRCHA money earning daughter of Dun it to breed to a top NRHA/NRCHA stallion so that is where I come in. I breed my good mares and sell those foals to people looking for their next show prospect. Some I keep some I sell. The ones I sell pay for the training of the ones I keep. The ones I sell pay for the stud fees and feed and so on of the ones I keep.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

r0tts0nly said:


> till blue in the face!!!



You are the one who stated a mustang can do it all. While I think they can make good horses with the right person and the right training they are not what most people are looking for.

SO again I ask you. What horses am I an other breeders like myself displacing? I am not displacing a Mustang. I am not displacing any grade horse out there and I am not displacing most average registered horse.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> You are the one who stated a mustang can do it all. While I think they can make good horses with the right person and the right training they are not what most people are looking for.
> 
> *Can a mustang even compete at that level without being registered? Not sure don't show.. or even a grade?*
> 
> SO again I ask you. What horses am I an other breeders like myself displacing? I am not displacing a Mustang. I am not displacing any grade horse out there and I am not displacing most average registered horse.


*Not about displacing it's about over population.*


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

r0tts0nly said:


> *Not about displacing it's about over population.*



Again how is what I breed and other breeders like myself over populating the horse industry? This is what I want you to answer. If it is a supply and demand business and prices are going up b/c there are not enough to fill the need then how is there an over population problem at this level? These people are NOT going to go and buy any old average horse. SO what I am breeding does not displace other horses of lessor quality or different breeding. 

SO AGAIN I ASK. How am I contributing to the problem of over population and what horses are mine displacing?


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

nrhareiner said:


> Again how is what I breed and other breeders like myself over populating the horse industry? This is what I want you to answer. If it is a supply and demand business and prices are going up b/c there are not enough to fill the need then how is there an over population problem at this level? These people are NOT going to go and buy any old average horse. SO what I am breeding does not displace other horses of lessor quality or different breeding.
> 
> SO AGAIN I ASK. How am I contributing to the problem of over population and what horses are mine displacing?


Well, of course you are not...there is a market for your good production, and a market for your culls, because they are well above average in their own rights.

People don't seem to understand that even in a down market there is still a demand. We are in a recession now, and car sales have been down. But that does not mean no new cars are being sold...it just means there are fewer than 3 years ago. It also means that some car models still sell well and some don't because they occupy different market segments that are in turn affected to a greater or lesser degree by the recession.

In an ideal world, in a generally down market, breeders that do not breed into a strong market segment are those that should stop breeding or at least curtail their breeding - that would include people that breed grades, and people that breed low-end registered horses. Even in that market segment, although demand is down, there is still some demand, albeit low.

To suggest all breeding should stop is a knee jerk reaction that is not based upon supply and demand. Again, ideally people should breed into market segments with a strong demand and not breed into market segments where there is little or no demand. Unfortuantely it doesn't happen that way...


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

JustDressageIt said:


> I really don't want to derail the conversation to another controversial topic, but I would encourage you to search that topic on this BB even - there's a lot of myths out there in regards to nurse mares and others such as PMU mares.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What part about this going on in my backyard do you not understand this stuff does happen I have seen it with my own eyes theres one rescue group here who try's to pursued these farms to give them the foals some do some do not the ones that do not destroy the foals there i a company here that picks them up and boils them down to glue I know what I am talking about. You live in Canada I live in the heart of the TB racing industry just because you dont see it doesnt mean it doesnt happen and this is not off topic because all the nurse mares most of them are grade and their offspring are grade.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> This is the problem with the way the TB industry works. Since they do not allow ETs you have a need for a nurse mare if you want to send the mare back to the track. Same with Shipped semen. Why do you think that you do not see consistency with TB when it comes to racing? B/C of the way that the TB industry works. In reality they claim to do it to keep diversity in the gene pool. Things is that is not really what is happening. They are only localizing it.


Amen and nothing will be done in my state KEEP works hard to protect its TB industry all aspects of it.


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## mysticalhorse (Apr 27, 2011)

Well I am a grade owner of 2 different mares. 1 we may possibly breed in a few years to get a horse that my husband wants....may, may not. My other mare I dont ever want to breed her even with her beautiful temperment, and confo. I have horses for pleasure and for my kids to use if they get into FFA or other programs like that. I would rather get 100 $75 yearlings like Mystic than spend $3000 on a horse for its papers. 

Makes me wonder if your so picky on what horse you buy, would you abort a child if it wasnt perfect? Or ask for a mans geneology before dsting him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

You can not compare horses to humans. We have been places as Stuarts of the animals here on earth. What we do affect them in many many ways. To produce an animal who has no future b/c it becomes lame, who is not the best it can be does more harm then good.

If you want to compare say a child how is crippled there are things that can be done. The most simple is a wheel chair. Might not be ideal but then can get out and around and do things. Now take a horse who is crippled lets say from bad conformation b/c it was poorly bred. What can you do for that horse? Horse can not lay down for a long period of time they need to stand and walk. There is no wheel chair for them to get around. There is no really good pain meds for them. So is that fair to that horse? It could have been avoided by just not breeding that mare with that sire to produce a horse with bad conformation that is going to brake down when you use it. So to compare the 2 is not even realistic.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

mysticalhorse said:


> Well I am a grade owner of 2 different mares. 1 we may possibly breed in a few years to get a horse that my husband wants....may, may not. My other mare I dont ever want to breed her even with her beautiful temperment, and confo. I have horses for pleasure and for my kids to use if they get into FFA or other programs like that. I would rather get 100 $75 yearlings like Mystic than spend $3000 on a horse for its papers.
> 
> Makes me wonder if your so picky on what horse you buy, would you abort a child if it wasnt perfect? Or ask for a mans geneology before dsting him?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is a fair question. There is nothing wrong with a grade horse. There have been and are some very good grade horses. The problem is using a grade as breeding stock to breed the second generation grade. That is breeding into a market segment with very little demand. While you may keep the product of the breeding till it dies of old age, the odds are against it, and more importantly very few as a group are born into the proverbial "forever home". Stuff happens - people's situation changes and people get sick and people die. A horse for which there is little demand is far less likely to find a good permanent home than one that is in much higher demand.

As a former long time breeder, I would also suggest that breeding second or subsequent generation grades violates a very basic breeding principle - never breed unless you have a reasonable expectation of the product. In the case of grades, their production is simply not predictable, as you cannot confirm that they are true to their breeding or that they in turn will breed true themselves. An exception to that would be if a horse is grade, but with known ancestry such that it could be determined that the horse is true to its breeding, therefore could reasonably be expected to breed true itself. There is no magic in papers that morph greatness into a horse, but they do enable a breeder to make wise and informed choices...


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## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

Katze said:


> People don't just breed "for pedigree", they breed for quality. Not every foal that hits the ground is going to be a GP god, there is the scale of ok-> to omg great in every breed. The difference between breeding grade and breeding a pureblood is that its like playing russian roulette, when you breed two grade horses you DON'T know what your going to get.
> 
> I'm not saying that all grade horses are garbage, there are fantastic grade horses as there are fantastic purebloods, BUT when it comes to breeding you have a higher chance of getting what you expect from breeding two of the same kind versus breeding two grades crossing your fingers and spitting in the wind.
> 
> This is a debate that will never end, there will be pro for purebreed only and pro grade as long as there are people around to carry that torch.


 
Thanks Katze, that's what I had been trying to say. 
R0tts, why was it wrong when I said it but not when reiner said it and then you agreed with Katze?? Oh well.... 




nrhareiner said:


> The numbers of horses who do not get registered is hard to say. The thing is that AQHA is not very expensive to register a horse. You will find that there are more whos owners for what ever reason just do not transfer ownership. Those are the ones I really hate. I would love to just go and kick all their rears on that one. Comes from the mind set that papers are not important. Then the papers get lost b/c the owner does not care enough about the horse to transfer them and keep track of them and then something happens and they have to sell the horse but can not find the papers can not remember the old owners name and so on so now the horse is grade. Really ticks me off to no end.


I think this is EXACTLY where all the fabulous "best horse I ever had and he was grade!" come from. 
The point of having a breed specific registry is that at one point some people noticed "Hey, these are great horses! Let's make sure that we pass on their great conformation/brain/ability and keep getting great horses for years to come." They didn't just randomly pick a few horses to make a "club". They picked the best of the best, in whatever that horse was good at reining, halter, cutting, etc... and the same for Arab, TB, TWH... all of them started out the best of the best, which is where registration began. 


Btw, I haven't seen any judgment being passed here, just a difference of opinions (which is what makes life and the world interesting!) =)


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

heartprints62 said:


> Thanks Katze, that's what I had been trying to say.
> R0tts, why was it wrong when I said it but not when reiner said it and then you agreed with Katze?? Oh well....
> 
> *Elaberate don't have a clue about what u are talking bout??*
> ...


*Yes alot of disagreement!*

*Like i said just because i have a top quality animal that has a great or even exceptional pedigree does not mean I need to breed it and add to the already overwhelming problem! There is always someone else that has something better so there is need for me to breed.*


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

r0tts0nly said:


> *Like i said just because i have a top quality animal that has a great or even exceptional pedigree does not mean I need to breed it and add to the already overwhelming problem! There is always someone else that has something better so there is need for me to breed.*



Why not. If that animal has an exceptional pedigree good conformation and proven show record why would you not breed that animal? Why would you not want to keep adding to the gene pool so it does not shrink and cause big problems down the road? Keep in mind that there is not an over population problem with well bred well conformed horses with proven pedigree and proven themselves. There is actually a shortage of this type of animal.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> Why not. If that animal has an exceptional pedigree good conformation and proven show record why would you not breed that animal? Why would you not want to keep adding to the gene pool so it does not shrink and cause big problems down the road? Keep in mind that there is not an over population problem with well bred well conformed horses with proven pedigree and proven themselves. There is actually a shortage of this type of animal.


*because I would also be adding to the problem maybe not in your area but here in alabama the problem is overwhelming. I go to the horse auction every week here in alabama and the majority of the animals that come through are registered and some even have been shown and done well alot of them are from a line called coosa. so i guess i should just speak for this area.*


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

r0tts0nly said:


> *because I would also be adding to the problem maybe not in your area but here in alabama the problem is overwhelming. I go to the horse auction every week here in alabama and the majority of the animals that come through are registered and some even have been shown and done well alot of them are from a line called coosa. so i guess i should just speak for this area.*



First Coosa is a halter stallion. Second those are not what I breed or even the level at which I breed. Again I do not sell just around here. Horses go all over. My stallion has get in Tx and a lot other areas around the country.

Again I am not talking location. I am talking level. Again there is not a over population of well bred well conformed proven horses. There is always a market for those horses.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> First Coosa is a halter stallion. Second those are not what I breed or even the level at which I breed. Again I do not sell just around here. Horses go all over. My stallion has get in Tx and a lot other areas around the country.
> 
> Again I am not talking location. I am talking level. Again there is not a over population of well bred well conformed proven horses. There is always a market for those horses.


*don't know anything bout your displine or bout your breeding lines or your show career. I only know what goes on in this area*


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

That is just it. You do not know what sells at a higher level and what the demand is. All you see are low end horses which do have a problem with over population. That is why I have such a problem with breeding grade horses and even to a large extent unproven registered ones. 


What I have are well proven mares with even more proven lines.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> That is just it. You do not know what sells at a higher level and what the demand is. All you see are low end horses which do have a problem with over population. That is why I have such a problem with breeding grade horses and even to a large extent unproven registered ones.
> 
> 
> What I have are well proven mares with even more proven lines.


*guess i have a problem with all breeding, and yes byb are a big problem but not the whole problem.And am not pointing at your displine I am saying in general not just your displine everyones.*

*Sure i go to horse shows and see whats out there my daughter takes lessons for barrel racing and pole bending. She has alot of fun, Scares the hell out of me though. I watch tv as well and see all the beautiful horses and yes i agree that breeding a bad grade will end in bad breeding as my appy mare my mother calls her the uglest horse in the world...lol but she is a great horse and she babysits my daughter on the trails. *


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

The thing is you can not lump all breeding into one category. It does not work that way. If people stop breeding good horse then where will the horses industry as a whole be?

Go on google Hollywood Dun It and reining stallions and see what a good reiner is going for.


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## r0tts0nly (Jul 14, 2011)

Never tryed to I was trying to get everyone to see the BIG picture. Hollywood is nice looking horse that has proble passed on lots of great horses. I never said one displine or another or one breed over another.
The shear number of horses that are abused or homeless is overwhelming is all.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I understand what you are saying and I agree that there are a lot of horses who need homes. What you are not seeing is that the responsible breeders who are breeding quality horses are not the big problem. They are more of the solution. If more people bred responsible by breeding for a market that is not over populated and stopped breeding the horses that have no market and there are plenty of then the problem would not be a problem. What I am saying is that the market that *I* breed for is *not* over populated.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

I think most of us know the big picture. I have had horses for over 50 years and was a breeder for 20, and nrhareiner has many years of experience. You are absolutely right in the overpopulation problem...anyone that would argue with that would have to be blind to the world around them. But the very best horses in each breed and each discipline within a breed should continue to be bred. Without that, all breeds will deteriorate. I stopped breeding 7 years ago when the demand went down because I bred, raised, and trained good horses, but not the best. Like you, I wish that more people would do the same. I also wish the mass breeders would curtail their programs, although some have, and I wish backyard breeders would curtail their breeding also. But we don't need to stop breeding altogether. What we need is for top breeders to continue to breed as usual, with everyone else cutting their breeding down. But sadly, people don't look at the big picture - they pretty much don't look behind their fenceline, and unknowingly they are doing a disservice to the animals they profess to love...


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

Wow, didn't think my question would start such a thread. 

nrhareiner - I agree with a lot on what you said. 

I will say one thing about breeding grades. If it hadn't been for breeding grades we would not have a lot of horses we do today, such as the morgan, QH, twh, saddlebred, Rocky Mountain, and quite a few others. I do believe that sometimes, if aiming for a goal or specific type, breeding grade type horses is okay. 

On the other hand, I am working towards breeding sporthorses. I am trying hard to make sure I pic stallions and broodmares in which I can paper the resulting foal. I do like having the knowledge that goes with having papers. Someone mentioned about how the papers are causing people to breed strickly for one purpose. That is not true - how do you think we ended up with papered horses in the first place. Someone saw something in a horse (ie Justin Morgan) and wanted it. They bred mares and kept track of the babies. Those babies that best exemplified the traits of the stallions they bred again. How do you keep track after a few generations - with papers. Presto, you have your registered Morgans.

I myself am breeding for a ideal. I have it in my head. I am striving for papers, however, if I find I need to breed to a stallion or mare without the resulting foal having papers, I will do it. Then again, I plan on keeping certain fillies to breed and am not breeding just to sell. (ps - the last few statements were not directed at you nhrareiner)


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

Faceman said:


> I think most of us know the big picture. I have had horses for over 50 years and was a breeder for 20, and nrhareiner has many years of experience. You are absolutely right in the overpopulation problem...anyone that would argue with that would have to be blind to the world around them. But the very best horses in each breed and each discipline within a breed should continue to be bred. Without that, all breeds will deteriorate. I stopped breeding 7 years ago when the demand went down because I bred, raised, and trained good horses, but not the best. Like you, I wish that more people would do the same. I also wish the mass breeders would curtail their programs, although some have, and I wish backyard breeders would curtail their breeding also. But we don't need to stop breeding altogether. What we need is for top breeders to continue to breed as usual, with everyone else cutting their breeding down. But sadly, people don't look at the big picture - they pretty much don't look behind their fenceline, and unknowingly they are doing a disservice to the animals they profess to love...


I agree with you Faceman. 
My biggest problem is that I just started in the breeding business. Its been a longtime dream come true in the worst economy we've seen in awhile. 
I have probably bred a couple more mares than I should but I am trying to make sure that I breed wisely. Luckily I have a good mentor who is helping me.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Crossover said:


> . (ps - the last few statements were not directed at you nhrareiner)



Did not think you where. I breed with selling in mind. That way if I end up with say a colt which at this point I do not really want I have a market for that horse. Also with the cost of training a reiner in the $35K-$50K the fact is that I need to sell a few to pay for that. Not to mention the average stud fees and breeding expenses. 

I really wish more people would look at breeding as a business.  One that you need to produce a product that someone finds value in and will want and buy for good money. This is one of the few business that this is not the case which is what really hurts.


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Did not think you where. I breed with selling in mind. That way if I end up with say a colt which at this point I do not really want I have a market for that horse. Also with the cost of training a reiner in the $35K-$50K the fact is that I need to sell a few to pay for that. Not to mention the average stud fees and breeding expenses.
> 
> I really wish more people would look at breeding as a business. One that you need to produce a product that someone finds value in and will want and buy for good money. This is one of the few business that this is not the case which is what really hurts.


My mentor is also trying to get me to look at it more of a business. She doesn't keep any of her fillies to breed, she says she can go out an buy a mare if she wishes to improve. Which I believe is true at first, but I think after a few generations with a goal in mind you wouldn't be able too buy what you breed. I havn't seen a horse yet that meets the goal I have in mind. When I do, I'll sell the rest and buy it. :lol:


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