# How to do steep down hills



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I started this because of another post
How to go down steep slippery hills
Contrary to what most of you thing, leaning back going down steep hills that is wrong
You need to lean forward, put you weight on the front legs going down a steep hill
The long hind legs of a horse are bent until from the hock down they just about match the slope of the hill taking
all traction away from the hind hooves and causing the horse to skate down a legs with too much weight on them
Lean forward so your weight is helping the horse to dig in his front legs and allowing the hind to skate down and if the horse really slips he doesn't go over backward

We needed to get around a farmers field in one of our riding bushes
The farmer didn't want us making a bath through his field do I created a
path through the bush but it involved a really steep, fairly long slide or climb which ever way your were going
The girls were afraid at first but with their faith in me and my experience they believe in me and did as told

Lean FORWARD going down and throw as much of you weight as possible on the front legs freeing up the hind to allow them to skate 

If you ride in snow and skate down a few hills you will be a believer
For those that need proof

Corral to Championship
Forget the page but they say to lean forward
The US cavalry use to have training video's out on U tube showing how to put your weight forward, not back going down hills

This forum has an old article about just this but I can't find it

If anyone knows where this post is please reference it

I know from lots of experience and from ready that leaning FORWARD going down steep slippery hills is the proper way

Guys prove it for me
Thank you
Norval


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Yes I think it was @bsms who posted something about the cavalry leaning forward when going down steep hills. It kind of blew my mind. We don't have any significant hills where I board, but we do have some short drops. I might try it both ways and see if I can feel the difference.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

This is an old one but not used. it too is wrong


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

ACinATX said:


> Yes I think it was @bsms who posted something about the cavalry leaning forward when going down steep hills. It kind of blew my mind. We don't have any significant hills where I board, but we do have some short drops. I might try it both ways and see if I can feel the difference.


Thank you and trust me. Lean forward and feel the difference on a steep slippery down hill

The modern cavalry taught riders to lean forward on down hills


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

_No thanks RoadRider...._

You do your way and I and everyone else will do what works for each of us too....a individual choice we make knowing our abilities and our animals capability.

I've slid off a mountainside when it collapsed....I was leaning forward not by choice and my horse _was _scrambling with my unsteady weight on his front end....no thanks, never again will I intentionally set myself up for that feeling.

For me, I lean back going down as that allows me to not be so out of balance I am unsteady in my saddle I might just be pitched out of it...
Going uphill again, I will lean forward so I am steady in my saddle with minimal movement and allow the horse to work with a steady weight on their back and.....and I am off their large back and butt muscles connected working diligently to safely get me where I need to be.

You do you and what makes you comfortable as will all of us who travel terrain needing careful consideration and application each specific body works best with and doing.

Do I wish we still had Smilie with us...
Her words and how to do I would trust knowing the kind of country she packed out into with her husband hunting and what they encountered with their horses..
🐴....


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

good video on how to NOT do hills
Go to 7:12 and this is what leaning back gets you
This is not what you want


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I just center myself to stay out of horse's way.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

COWCHICK77 said:


> I just center myself to stay out of horse's way.


Always my goal.


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## My Salty Pony (Jan 1, 2022)

I have Always rode my horses the way they are needed to be rode, going up hills down hills on flat ground, never have I been told I needed to ride my horse a certain way. Every body has their own style of riding and I never had needed a video to tell me how I needed to ride my horses, I guess as for a beginner a video helps you to get ideals on how it should be done, I'm old school so I'll ride the way I have always rode, if going up a hill I do tend to lean forward a tad bit and down hill I lean back just a tiny bit and thats the way I ride and nobody is going to tell me any different. Videos are very help full when needed, I always tell the beginners they need to watch a certain thing when starting out.So if you need a video to help you go up are down a hill good for you, videos are good for you when you need help in that area of riding, Good luck!!


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

I'd be another 'no thanks'

I've ridden down hill on hacks, down large step jumps, drop fences and jumped down hill and, if I'd been leaning forward I'd have been on the ground on the slightest peck.

You need to be balanced, shoulders behind your hips, legs slightly forward, give with the reins, so you're in a position that if the horse were removed you'd still land on your feet and be standing upright. The body and head should be vertical, it's the horse rotating that makes it look like you're leaning back. The extent to which you look like you're leaning back depends on the steepness of the drop.

The riders in the old videos were wrong when they leant back over the saddle, if the rear end went they'd drop behind the horse.

Equally, if you were to lean too far forward and you'd be on the ground and under the horse. Having had a rotational fall jumping downhill I know how very unpleasant it can be.

The link to the image showing the Hickstead Bank is the best position as far as I'm concerned:

http://www.britishshowjumping.co.uk/images/news/medium/Billy Twomey and Diaghilev, Derby Bank 2016.jpg


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## secuono (Jul 6, 2011)

Nah, I'll fall off over the neck if I'm forward. Same if you walk down a hill on your own feet and lean forward, you'll fall forward and either start running to catch yourself or just collapse. 
I stay vertical, going down or up.
Your weight is always in the saddle, no matter your position. And on very steep hills, the saddle is pulled by gravity and rider weight forward when going down and to the rear when going up. Nothing you do will change that. That's why cruppers and breastcollars are used.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Way back in the 1950's when I started riding my father told me that when going down a steep slippery, greasy hill keep the horse going straight down, don't go down the hill at an angle because if the horse started to slide his feet would go out from under him and at an angle that means a fall. If going straight if the horse starts to slide he can keep on his feet and just slide, "skate" down the hill. I have sktated down a few hills and remember what Dad told me. If the footing is good, going at an angle is not so risky.
Going down steep hills I don't lean back but I also don't lean forward try to stay mostly in the center. Going up a hill that is really steep I will lean a bit forward and take a handful of mane to steady myself and also to help keep the saddle in place and not move back a little on the horse.
I think if you have a side view of a horse going down a steep hill the horse's body reflects the angle of the decline and the rider's body is mainly straight up and down which may look like the rider is leaning back but not really.

Anybody remember that great downhill ride by the guy on The man from Snowy River? I got the video and replayed that ride a few times. What a horse. I read that they had so many cameras and different views for that ride because they were only going to do it ONCE! No repeats.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

going up a steep grade
Let the horse jog, never lung
I had 6 girls on my endurance team
One of the girls husbands was upset and he was going to show us
He let Star lung up a steep embankment
I told his wife that he was going to destroy the horse
Hollow back, head held high and lunging
Next time out he tore both tendons
The horse was put down
Jog ok but no lunging
Wouldn't let a guy like that on our team or ride with us.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Again look around 7:12 and see the horses loosing it on the hind end
Ride forward and all that goes away
The latest cavalry video's all rode forward
Somewhere on this forum is the new updated way to do hills


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

If you pause that video at 4:22 you will see a good side shot of going down hill with the rider is mostly straight up and I don't think he is leaning back much


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

You need to have your centre of gravity over the horse's. And that's the main thing. Depending on your strength and skill set, you can accomplish that by leaning back OR by squatting forward and down, depending on the situation, provided your hips go back in that squat to counterbalance you. If you just pitch forward and try to do a "praying mantis" pose up over your horse's neck, you're not doing anyone any favours.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I was once on a hill so steep and slippery, my horse sat down on the ground to slide down. 
As you might imagine, I was sitting up with my head near the horse's head too. We made it fine.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

*Note: The rider and horse in the above photo were fine! They did NOT fall!*






Use a forward seat_ but use it properly._ If you will be tossed on the neck by a sudden stop, you aren't riding a forward seat FROM THE STIRRUPS! If you grip with the knee instead of the lower leg, you can be tossed forward - which is why it wasn't taught that way by the cavalries of the world! Keep the knee a little loose and let your weight flow without interruption into your lower leg and heel.






If you ride a Forward Seat correctly, you will be matched with your horse's balance. If you lean back, you make his balance worse. The US Cavalry also said it resulted in more injuries to riders and horses - and since they had thousands going down steep slides, their statistics beat anecdotal evidence:






Mind you, *I do not care if anyone does it differently.* But this is what worked when done by the thousands - by the Spanish in the photo above - and done regularly. I'll take the liberty of posting a test the US Cavalry taught for ensuring you were in balance with your horse:

"How to Test Correctness of Rider's Position: If the rider is in balance as a result of his upper body's being properly inclined forward, _he is able at the walk, trot or gallop, WITHOUT FIRST LEANING FARTHER FORWARD and without pulling on the reins, to stand in his stirrups with all his weight in his depressed heels._

In executing this exercise the seat is raised just clear of the saddle by stiffening the knees but keep them partly flexed. The upper body *REMAINS* inclined forward at the hips. At the trot on hand should touch the horse's neck LIGHTLY to assist in remaining in balance. At the walk or gallop [canter] the rider, if his seat is correct, should be able to stand in his stirrups without the aid of his hand. A rider, who can execute the above exercise at all gaits and without first changing inclination, is in balance and never "behind his horse". The majority of those NOT in this position partly maintain their balance by hanging on to the reins, thus unnecessarily punishing their horses' mouths as well as their backs."

If you don't practice this on level ground, you won't be ready to do it right going down a steep slope.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

RoadRider said:


> This is not what you want


Prior to the early 1920s - and that video came before then - the US Cavalry taught based on the French Manual, which was influenced by dressage. In 1922, Lt Col Harry Chamberlin was sent to the French Cavalry School in Saumur. In 1923, he was sent to the Italian Cavalry School at Tor di Quinto. After graduating from both, he returned and started teaching what he learned. Jim Wofford called him America's greatest equitation theorist. He also called him “second only to Caprilli in international influence” and wrote, “_Chamberlin is to horsemanship as Mozart is to music._” The Military Seat was the result of his genius.

Also see:








Harry Chamberlin - Teacher & Horseman - U.S. Horsemanship


Born in Illinois in 1887, Harry Dwight Chamberlin graduated from West Point in 1910. Upon graduation he was assigned to Fort Riley, Kansas, 7th Cavalry. He later returned to West Point where he trained under the Guy. Henry. (read about Guy Henry) Chamberlin served in WW1 and after the armistice…



ushorsemanship.com


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Thank you bsms
That u tube video was one I was looking for but couldn't find it
Thank you
Norval


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I love the example @bsms ....

That indeed shows what many of us are already doing....when on a decline.
Sitting up, bracing our feet in the stirrup and pushing our center of balance back as the horse does theirs, staying in unison with them.
We are _not_ leaning down over their front end, but our weight distribution may have shifted a bit forward as the horse goes from a level ground to a decline of steep.
And when climbing we do the lean forward, forward weight shift as the animals weight shifts with a hard push from the hind to propel them forward and upward a incline of steep.

We, the riders who have ridden steep do naturally as our middle ear requires us to be in align and balance whether we walk ourselves or ride a horse...we align to their balance or you fall off or get catapulted.
Unless you have vertigo or "broken" middle ear hairs that control your body's automatic responses....you have one heck of a fight on your hands to over-ride your body's natural inclinations of self-preservation to not fall or crash.

If you've been taught by a informed instructor you also know to lighten/shift the load on the back cause it is part of the gas pedal to the hind-end or brakes... Its why when we jump fences we get off the back and suspend above the back and the musculature... that _is_ what is done today because time and evolution have found this is the better way to execute a fence planned to clear. 
Someplace @bsms I know you have the pictures that support the old style of jumping near straight leg and sitting the saddle and on the spine and of course we know what is today done and has been....I've seen that change of style around the 40's appear from pictures...not sure exactly when "get off the back started to appear."
So, over time things change...many for the better of the animals ability to do and comfort level achieved. Changes that have been found to be safer for the rider and in turn for our mounts.

We all _are_ individuals and tweak our riding to _our_ needs and those of_ our_ body.
All who ambulate know that as do all equestrians experienced enough to know what happens when you go outside the box of checks and balances astride....  you often find dirt and a "face-plant" aka fall occurs.
🐴... _jmo..._


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I've never ridden a steep incline that compares with what has been shown above, but I'm solidly in the camp of keeping over your horse's centre of gravity going downhill. Leaning forward makes no sense to me. Rusty is very much on the forehand already, so he doesn't need me adding to it. As in most cases, I think we are best served by just staying out of the horse's way and minimizing the imbalances we are causing by having as neutral a position as possible as the horse attempts to balance itself. Excessively leaning forward or backward will only cause them to be more imbalanced.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"Leaning forward". What I was taught by instructors was to keep my back vertical in relation to the horizon (earth). That would have looked like this, taken in Italy before they adopted the Forward Seat:







The various cavalries changed the above position in response to Italy's success (via Caprilli) in covering impossibly rough ground using a Forward Seat - which was NOT a "jump" seat, but a seat to use any time you covered rough ground fast. Repeat photo but the contrast is stark:






If one rides a lot in two point or balanced in the stirrups, you get a feel for the horse's balance. You must stay over his balance point to remain "standing" - or perhaps lower, "squatting" - in the stirrups. For most riding, I prefer to be just behind that balance point. But just barely. Going down a steep spot, the feeling is the same. In very steep spots, the horse's hind legs don't have much traction and my horse seems more confident in _his_ balance if I stay "with" him rather than "behind" my horse.

But a lot depends also on what you are used to and what your HORSE is used to you doing. I use two point every ride and my horse_ expects _me to use it! 

I've debated riding position and balance since I took up riding 14 years ago. I know what the cavalry taught and I really like much of it. But I've concluded _my horse_ is busy balancing _US_ as we canter down a desert wash or scramble out of one, and what my horse really wants is for me to be _predictable and stable_. He is adjusting his balance for us both, provided he knows what to expect from me. I'm confident the cavalry teaching is the best (most effective) method because they dealt with thousands of horses and riders and they regularly practiced going places my horse and I would BOTH refuse! I know the military. They undoubtedly KNEW how many horses fell and how many riders were hurt doing X versus Y.

But when Bandit and I are in the desert, BANDIT is staying balanced. He'll get the job done as long as I don't throw him off balance. It follows that means keeping my weight stable and* predictable *is more important to him than whatever the "best" technique is! It's just that I learned first by studying the cavalry manual, so that balance is what he has learned to expect from me.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'll add something done many years ago. A guy who worked with top jumpers (1930s I believe) wondered what would happen with a dead weight. So he used a 180 pound dummy. But to keep it from falling off, he had to brace it in the saddle so it wouldn't move. What he discovered was the horse jumped better with the braced dummy than with some of the best riders! Even great riders wobble a little! The results make sense if "stable and predictable" is more helpful to the horse than our best efforts....

I'll also confess an oddity of mine. I use one hand on the reins for 80-90% of my riding. So I sometimes use my free hand on the horn to stabilize my weight in two point. If Bandit needs to squirt sideways or suddenly jump something I didn't see while cantering, I'm stable. Bandit seems to like that approach.

If anyone saw us, they'd laugh at me! But most of our riding is just the two of us somewhere in the desert. And while Bandit might be amused sometimes, he has never laughed out loud at me. After all, I feed him!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

In the riding downhill thing, leaning right back is not correct

You have to consider your seat position in relation to the line of the horse's back and consider where you want your weight to be in relation to where the horse most needs it to be.

If you lean right back, as opposed to sitting more upright or slightly forward, then you're placing too much weight on the horse's rear end where it least needs it to be, and that risks the horse literally sitting down and sliding forwards under its own weight.

You have to imagine, tilting the horse around using some sort of photoshop technique, so the rider might look as if they're leaning forwards but is actually closer to upright, with only a slight lean 

Don't compare the position for riding downhill with the ideal position for drop fences on cross country courses or out hunting - different thing entirely as the horse's legs aren't touching the ground until they land - you ride a drop fence leaning back to keep your weight off the horse's front end to avoid a somersault wreck when it lands


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## My Salty Pony (Jan 1, 2022)

Can you imagine what would have happen if he was leading forward while running down the side of a mountain


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

jaydee said:


> In the riding downhill thing, leaning right back is not correct
> 
> 
> 
> If you lean right back, as opposed to sitting more upright or slightly forward, then you're placing too much weight on the horse's rear end where it least needs it to be, and that risks the horse literally sitting down and sliding forwards under its own weight.


I learned on my own, not by any forum, by experience , having to come and go by a steep drop off, summer and winter, slick, ice or rain that sitting back got me into trouble
Twice my horse wiped out, his rear end passed the front and he went into a slid
On my own I started to lean forward and yes the slicker the hill the more I leaned forward putting as much weight as possible forward and it worked
I got all the girls I rode with to do the same thing and it prevented all future accidents
I don't care about how I look, where I am placing the weight in the stirrups, 
I just get my weight forward
I ride 7 days a week
I learned everything I know by doing

60 plus years of doing


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

My Salty Pony said:


> Can you imagine what would have happen if he was leading forward while running down the side of a mountain
> 
> View attachment 1136738
> View attachment 1136740


That's movies , not reality


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## avjudge (Feb 1, 2011)

RoadRider said:


> That u tube video was one I was looking for but couldn't find it


I think you’ll find some of the videos you want by searching something like “Italian cavalry cross country.”

That turned up this link, for example


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Good one avjudge


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

RoadRider said:


> That's movies , not reality


Your point is ——-?…

Movie or not the horses are real, not cgi. Yes they were well trained and cared for but isn’t that part of your discourse in the first place?

I rode bareback for nearly 60 years, sliding horses down steep river banks, swimming the river, digging up the other side. If I sat any of my horses the way you insist is correct “posture”, I‘d’ve been in the river every time.

Further to my point —- I never sored any of those horses. They were my Keepers and stayed with me until their end times, ranging from 27 years to 29 years.

The 29 year old went on his last weekend, 20 mile daily ride when he was 27 and finished the ride well ahead of much younger horses because he stayed conditioned. That was a rough ride, with warnings issued to the participants. It wasn’t for someone who just stepped out of Western Horseman or studied turn-of-the-century pictures on how to properly sit while sliding down a ravine and dig up the other side🤠🤠


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## My Salty Pony (Jan 1, 2022)

RoadRider said:


> That's movies , not reality


Yes its a movie, but the riding down the side of that mountain is very real as all the riding. You cant fake this kind of horsemanship..


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

walkinthewalk said:


> I rode bareback for nearly 60 years, sliding horses down steep river banks, swimming the river, 🤠


Again something I would never do
Ride a horse bare back. Butt ones can hurt and sitting bare back on a horse doesn't spread the load out
I too have swam horses across rivers but mainly our pond
Salt on the inseam hurts


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

My Salty Pony said:


> Yes its a movie, but the riding down the side of that mountain is very real as all the riding. You cant fake this kind of horsemanship..


It's a one off deal and no one would ride their horse like that. A stunt person risks their lives for a shot like that
and can't be taken as a way any of us should ride our horse
Too extreme to be included in this discussion


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

RoadRider said:


> Again something I would never do
> Ride a horse bare back. Butt ones can hurt and sitting bare back on a horse doesn't spread the load out
> I too have swam horses across rivers but mainly our pond
> Salt on the inseam hurts


And salt on bare legs begets sweaty rash😂

I’ve been on a horse since dad thru me up on the work mare when I was two. My grandfather had myself and my cousin training his horses to ride & drive from the time I was 12; we started them bareback and with untied reins. If we did go off we weren’t hung upon anything; we quickly learned balance and light hands. I never saddle broke the Arab/Saddlebred that was born on my parents farm and is the one who lived to 29 until he was ten because, in the very early days, the only way I could get on an organized ride was with a saddle. 

I was pretty thin so worrying about spreading the load was never an issue and balance certainly was not an issue. I’m a few pounds heavier these days but still not enough to worry, if I were still able to ride.

I’ve been riding Walking Horses since 1990, which made life with trauma injuries a lot more comfortable - except now trauma has really caught up and all I do these days is keep my remaining two senior horses gentled from the ground, for a few hours daily, so their professional caregivers will keep coming back🤠🤠


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## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

Oh heck, I wasn't going to comment, just to avoid flack. However, it seems I have something to say.

First of all, if the still shots of _The Man from Snowy River _are not germane to the conversation, then neither are the 100 year old videos of insane, breakneck military exercises. If we are to present either as "proof" that our way is right, then pictures of diving bareback into tanks of water from great heights (like entertainers did in the early 20th century did) are equally relevant.

Secondly, I may have missed it, but I didn't read any posts that considered the horse's point of view.

I rode driving horses most of my adult life. Driving horses learn to descend hills "sitting" on their haunches. A driving horse slopping down a hill on its front end is a candidate for a wreck. Not relevant to riding, says you? Stay with me. Conversely, a driving horse holding back a heavy load with its breeching too low (breeching is essentially the horse-assisted brakes on a vehicle), it can push the horse's hind legs _too far _under it, with the potential for hind feet to slide too far forward, causing the vehicle to overtake the horse.

Obviously, balance is key. Balance and speed. The prospect of a downhill runaway was my greatest fear when driving.

Anyway, getting back to riding...my driving horses would balance my weight going downhill when ridden, as if they were sitting into breeching, by getting their rear ends underneath themselves where they felt safe. I didn't have to work at sitting forward or back, but I never sat any way that would weight the forehand.

Enter my TWH mare, which I acquired when she was 17 years old. A lifetime trail horse that did...not...have...a...clue how to descend a hill safely. With her long strides, slopping along on her front end, she was a total fall risk. Especially on a slippery grass hillside. So we worked on that. I didn't work on me sitting forward or back, I just taught her to get her rear end underneath her to descend a hill (never at excessive speed, as I don't consider the overuse of speed going up OR downhill to be a particularly enjoyable way to experience a trail ride over steep ground). If she gets sloppy, we just revise her posture. I sit where she responds positively and we've always gotten to the bottom safely.

What, in the horse's evolution, prepared it to travel safely downhill, balancing a 200 lb shifting load on its back? I think it's our job to teach such balance to the horse, then get out of its way.

And I'm used to living in the modern horse world, where no matter WHAT I do, someone will tell me I'm doing it wrong. So, forward or back, which was correct?


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

dogpatch said:


> Oh heck, I wasn't going to comment, just to avoid flack. However, it seems I have something to say.
> 
> First of all, if the still shots of _The Man from Snowy River _are not germane to the conversation, then neither are the 100 year old videos of insane, breakneck military exercises. If we are to present either as "proof" that our way is right, then pictures of diving bareback into tanks of water from great heights (like entertainers did in the early 20th century did) is equally relevant.
> 
> Secondly, I may have missed it, but I didn't read any posts that considered the horse's point of view.


Yes, thank you. Just because the cavalry did it that way does not mean it's the right way. Again, I don't have a whole lot to say about this except that if I am going to let my horse figure out how to carry his weight in the safest way possible, then the least I can do is just get the heck out of his way and be in a position that is as neutral as possible.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

^^^ these two exactly. Especially as someone else coming from a back ground heavy on driving and riding driving horses.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

RoadRider said:


> I started this because of another post
> How to go down steep slippery hills
> Contrary to what most of you thing, leaning back going down steep hills that is wrong
> You need to lean forward, put you weight on the front legs going down a steep hill
> ...


You do not want to lean forward. Nor do you want to lean backward.
You want to STAY BALANCED on your horse. If you stay balanced, it helps them stay balanced and keep their center of gravity.
No matter what you are doing (riding hills, jumping, dressage, reining, etc etc) the goal is to always stay balanced and simply "stay out of your horse's way" so they can use their body correctly.
Completely agree with @COWCHICK77
I always try to envision that if my horse disappeared from under me, would I be able to stand on my own two feet? Or would I fall forward or backward? If I would, then I am not balanced. If I am not balanced in my saddle, then my horse will not be balanced under me.



RoadRider said:


> You need to lean forward, put you weight on the front legs going down a steep hill
> 
> Lean FORWARD going down and *throw* as much of you weight as possible on the front legs freeing up the hind to allow them to skate


Terrible idea to load all weight on the front end of the horse, or throw your weight anywhere at all. Because if they take one little misstep or one little trip with their front end, now they have no way to recover .... and down the hill you will go at a tumble. They need to be able to move their front end if necessary and they physically cannot do that if all their weight is loaded on the front end. Once again, they must also have their center of gravity and be balanced.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I stay straight, for the most part, like @COWCHICK77 and @beau159. That staying out of a horse’s way sometimes is pretty decently leaned back, just to be straightish.

Now, that’s not saying that what I do is right, and what someone else does is wrong. Whatever works for you I guess.

I feel like this thread though is saying “you have to lean forward to do steep downhills.” Nope, that is not true. I do a decent amount of steep, and leaning forward is something I would never do. So, not true. I’ve also never seen a person in my life lean forward going downhill. I’ve seen some keep their position maybe, like what the Calvary photos showed, but lean forward? Not something I’ve ever seen, or would ever do.

Yet, I don’t care what someone else does. You wanna throw your horse off balance? Great, more power to you. No one with any actual level of experience believes there is only one way to do things.

Maybe I am reading it wrong, but that’s how statements come off to me on here, and I find it insulting somehow. To me it sounds like “to be any level of horseman, one must follow all of my directives,” and maybe the reason I find it offensive is because it most of the time opposes what I myself would do.


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## charrorider (Sep 23, 2012)

I ride in hilly country. Granted, not as steep as the ones in the old films and not at that speed. But the one thing I noticed with the films featuring the US cavalry was all the head tossing on the part of some horses. I ride with loose reins. But particularly going downhill. Based purely on my experience of riding in hilly country, a horse with a free head is where the balance begins. All that head tossing indicates that the horse wants to set his head free. Coincidentally, I also noticed in all the old cavalry films featured in this discussion, that *all* the riders probably fit the 20% of the horse's weight carrying limit. It is a fair question to consider whether that aided the horses. All horses regardless of whether the rider was sitting forward, backwards or neutral, made it downhill.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

My Salty Pony said:


> but the riding down the side of that mountain is very real as all the riding





Acadianartist said:


> Just because the cavalry did it that way does not mean it's the right way.


Yes, what they did in the movie worked okay. That shows it is POSSIBLE. It does NOT show it is the best way. To find the best way, they would have needed to try different ways going down the mountain hundreds of times. Maybe thousands. And kept track of which method resulted in the fewest accidents and fewest injuries.

Oh wait. The US Cavalry DID that! With thousands of horses and riders! So yes, @Acadianartist , that very strongly suggests their way IS the right way_ because no one else has ever tried to find the answer! _They did it because travelling across extremely rough ground was part of what the cavalry needed to do.

From a scientific or engineering viewpoint, what people do a few times successfully does not show anything other than it is possible. Most people will keep their backs perpendicular to the horizon because that_ feels _best to us. And how many of us have ever stood beside a steep drop and watched a hundred horses and riders go over the edge, and paid attention to how both horse and rider moved?

Of course, people can and will do as they wish. But anyone who says maintaining a Forward Seat in steep descents is impossible or harmful ought to accept the evidence it is not. And if one wants to know the best technique, it is prudent to consider the conclusions of people who did it all the time and with thousands of horses and new riders.

Slim Pickens jumping a wagon for a movie:






He did it and it is absolutely possible to do it that way. But there is a reason you won't find many professional jumpers using the same technique...

PS: I think "lean forward" is being misinterpreted. I don't think the OP was saying to lean out over the horse's neck. I think the OP means your TORSO leans forward as needed to maintain a regular balance, rather than leaning back to stay perpendicular to the horizon. I think it is obvious BOTH work relatively well, although at the "professional" level, you'll be less likely to be injured if you follow the cavalry's advice. I also think_ it is best to ride the way you prefer so as to be predictable and stable for your horse_. There really is more than one way to do most riding.

PS: The US and Italian cavalries rode with an English approach to the reins. I also suspect a tight rein was needed to encourage the horse approaching a steep slide to to turn away. I normally ride with one hand and a little slack. But I also don't ride off of cliffs and Bandit has a say in where we go....


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

If I've learned anything from having done western trail rides as a kid, hunter/jumper as a teen, and dressage now as an adult, it's that it's entirely possible to stay in balance with the horse by staying upright and in a straight line perpendicular to the ground, OR by squatting with bent knees and hips in a "forward" seat. Although forward seat is really a misnomer, that often leads to unbalanced riders who misunderstand it, because it's a _crouched_ seat -- the forward lean of the upper body is counterbalanced completely by the hips and the joints in the lower leg. And the balance and weight of the rider should still be perpendicular to the ground.

So there's probably merit to both, depending on the circumstances!!


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## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

@bsms says: Oh wait. The US Cavalry DID that! With thousands of horses and riders!

The fact that my father survived the first part of WWII serving on a submarine that was commissioned in 1914 doesn't mean it wasn't a submersible coffin. (My brother recently told me that Dad confided he served on seven submarines that SANK during WWII...how is it I, a card carrying baby boomer, am here!)

What we don't know here is what the casualty/fatality/failure rate was for either school and how the rider's "seat" impacted the statistics. We'll never know because it wasn't long after these videos were created that the cavalry became a shadow of its former self. We can't accept a fleeting visual to reveal the whole story. .How many things has the army done that were really REALLY stupid. 

These were officers in training, being hardened to face unimaginable danger. I've read Chamberlain and I agree that he was a marvelous horseman. But he didn't die on horseback, I think he died of a disease he contracted in the south Pacific. He was an Olympic rider. And everything about Olympic riding has changed since his day. Not that I'm an expert. (Eventing is obviously spectacular and disciplined, but it's not chasing down a rough mountain trail.) Of course for jumping, we see riders up on their horses' necks. But that's going up and over, not downdowndown. Not being a jumper, I am unqualified to comment there. But jumping a course and riding (or driving!) down the flank of Mt. Jefferson are two different things. I think for the modern day, it would be nice for someone experienced with packing in or endurance equitation (with humble apologies if there are participants here who ARE!) to give us the goods on modern "extreme" riding. That's where I've always looked to up my game.

I think this whole discussion is based on a Parelli concept. If I'm not mistaken, he's the one and only person I ever recall who said that "leaning backward" going downhill was WRONG (although I think most of us agree that we try to remain fairly "erect", which isn't the same as leaning backward), and that the only right way was his way. Until this post.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

@dogpatch we did a little laughing about this today. When we came to a steep grade both my husband and I tried to do it in two point. We laughed because it felt so wrong. Husband didn’t stick in it, because the big horse struggles enough down steep grades, didn’t appreciate it, and he doesn’t need any help tripping. Queen didn’t seem to care either way, but she is so stinking sure footed it’s crazy, and she was trying to focus on the cows I was after. Just because she didn’t disagree with it, didn’t make it comfortable to me though, so I only managed trying it the once.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The US Cavalry (and other militaries) kept statistics. Paperwork. Daily reports on the status of all the horses and men. No one before or since - and almost certainly no one ever again -_ studied _how to go down very steep slopes. They had trained observers watching as hundreds did so. A single cavalry regiment had over 1,000 horses. We'll never see anything like it again.

But if anyone wants to do different, have at it! @RoadRider shared a technique that has worked well for him. It has worked for me too. I doubt either of us will lose any sleep if folks don't want to try it (or adopt it). I suspect the OP offered it up for discussion because differing ideas make for interesting discussions. No one learns by reading the same thing they already believe. And I joined in because A) I was pinged, and B) I love the Forward Seat!

From the US Cavalry Manual on slides:

_64. SLIDES . — In taking a slide the horse should be kept well under control by use of the reins and legs which make him start down the slide straight , and prevent any attempt to turn aside at the instant when his fore feet have started down the slide but the hind feet have not. 

The reins are normally held in both hands, but they may be held in one hand if the other is required for the use of weapons or other purposes . The rider's legs should remain closed against the horse, and his body inclined forward and kept there. This position allows the rider to go down the slide with his horse without danger of straining the jockey muscles . If the body is inclined backward when the horse slides, the legs are either pulled forward and up from the sides of the horse with the danger of losing the seat, or a terrific strain is put on the muscles of the legs and thighs, which is liable to strain the jockey muscles. 

The forward position also frees the horse's loins and allows free play of the arched muscles in the loins , which come into play when the horse brings his hocks up under him in sliding . There is less shock to the horse at the bottom of the slide if the rider is forward , because the shoulders are attached to muscles which can absorb the shock easier than the bony structure of the hindquarters._



https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924001092349&view=1up&seq=7



They don't discuss the seat itself in detail because it was already covered at length earlier. Here is the summary of that long section:

"_Summary-The rear limit of the military seat is at the points of the buttocks. The fleshy portion of the buttocks in rear of their points is never a part of the base of support. The combined inclination and posture of the upper body largely determine the manner in which a rider sits in the saddle. With the points of the buttocks resting lightly on the saddle and its center deep in the rider's crotch, the upper body is so inclined from the hips as to maintain balance and carry some of the weight of the trunk onto the thighs. This automatically forces them down into their proper position.

The thighs and length of stirrups fix the position of the knees. When the stirrups of the flat saddle are shortened, the crotch must be pushed farther to the rear and the body inclined farther to the front so that the knees remain in their proper position on the saddle and underneath the mass of the rider's body. 

The knees, snugly in contact with the saddle, are relaxed, flexed, and always as low as the particular length of stirrup will permit provided the stirrup straps remain approximately vertical. The rider does not stand in his stirrups nor should he give that impression except when intentionally riding in that manner. 

His sense of balance, aided by the correct distribution of his weight and muscular control of his back and of his hip, knee, and ankle joints, give him the sensation that at each grounding of the horse's feet in his stride, he is thrust deeper and more securely into the saddle._"

American Military Horsemanship by James A. Ottevaere has the entire text. It currently is available used for under $7. It was the first book that gave me solid advice when I took up riding on a very spooky Arabian mare at age 50. Along with VS Littauer's "Common Sense Horsemanship", it formed the basis for how I learned to ride.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Knave said:


> @dogpatch we did a little laughing about this today. When we came to a steep grade both my husband and I tried to do it in two point. We laughed because it felt so wrong.


Haha, I did the same thing yesterday coming home down the big hill from the overlook. Fizz actually stopped in her tracks and looked back over her shoulder like she was expecting to see me tumbling off. Definitely interrupted her balance!


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## PennyTheConnie (6 mo ago)

best way to prevent loosing traction and falling down the hill is to stand off your horses back and allow them to maneuver down the hill without your weight throwing them off center.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I'll just say that I've been on horses that it wouldn't matter how you rode them down the hill, and I've been on horses that started down a hill and I realized there was no way they could make it with a rider. 
Sometimes it's also not about sitting for the horse's sake, but for what you think is going to happen to the saddle. If your horse has no shoulder, and you have no crupper, you might be maintaining a position you think will keep the saddle back better. 

Horses can be taught to go down hills better, but the first time you start down a slippery hill with a horse and realize they think they can only do it at a trot or canter, with their legs sliding all over, it can be pretty hairy.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Around here, the loose gravel and rock can cause the surface to give way beneath your feet - or your horses. As a rule, an ATV trail like this has a gully full of big rocks at the bottom. So if I have ANY doubt, I dismount and lead. I have had my feet shoot out in front of me and landed on my butt, with Bandit looking down at me as if to say, "_I can't take you ANYWHERE! Geez! What would you do without me to take care of you..._"


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

@gottatrot I’m having that problem with Queen. The saddle wants to slip up over her shoulders. I’m teaching her to keep her head up to hold it in place. It would not work at all if she wasn’t so sure footed. She is definitely an athlete.

@bsms the ground gives way where we work too. The stuff we were on the other day, for example, you cannot drive anything up. Even my fathers excessive talent on a bike doesn’t allow for it to be done. We did get off and lead down the steepest sections, and poor Queen. I start falling and use her breastcollar to catch myself, and I’m sure she’s thinking “woman, we are both going to fall off this mountain if you can’t learn to walk!”


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

When I was newly married i watched my husband drop off a cut bank after two Hereford bulls that hadn't been gathered in 2 years. It was like the Snowy River scene, but not as long. Maybe 25-30 feet. I thought "I'm going to be a widow this soon!" Then he hollered for me and off my horse and i went. I figured I was bound to join him.

That is the only, only time I had to lean back excessively in order to stay out of my horse's way. That's also the only, only time I rode off a cutback. I know rocks and dirt was flying by me. Pretty sure my guardian angel is going to slap me for that episode when we meet. 

We got the bulls. They were broke to lead by the time we got them to the corrals. 

Footing does make a difference. The worst I've dealt with was pine needles going down hill. So slippery.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

@boots I never thought about pine needles! That would be rough!!! I don’t like rock slides. We have patches of real rock slides, and there are cat trails cutting through, but boy am I in a state of not happy when I cross them!

My biggest man from snowy river moment was stupid as they come. My friend and I were hired to keep some cows on an unfenced private after the big fires rolled through. We camped with the cows for a couple of weeks. We were only teenagers.

In the nights this stud and his band were coming in and trying to take our mares. I was having none of it, and rather stupid, I said “Tomorrow night when they come in, let’s jump on our horses bare back and run them out of here.”

My mare was crazy fast. She broke an arena record kind of fast, and super hot. So, the next night, in comes this stud and his band. We bailed on bareback. The mare the friend of mine chose was also hot and one of ours. We go barreling after this herd, and they jump off this steep mountain. Runt and I went off after them. She stopped, because apparently she was blessed with more brains than I. We were in the middle of the herd before I realized how stupid I was being.

So, I decided to pull Runt up. I mean, imagine going off an embankment bareback on a runaway type of horse after a herd of mustangs! So, I asked her to stop, and I didn’t believe how quickly she agreed. It’s like she knew herself how awfully stupid I was being. This wasn’t a mare who pulled up tracking something easily. I could imagine her being like “thank you. Do you have a brain in your head? I mean, I’m all for wild ideas, but we were going to die you idiot!”

Climbing back up that steep mountain I realized even more how stupid I had been. I have no idea how I stayed on that mare bareback of all things! God was with me that day. You know what they say, he protects children and idiots. I was both.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I guess you could just walk down and have a friend send your horse down then you don't have to worry how you ride it...LOL 






This horse is so clever.#horse #funny #fyp | TikTok


62.8K Likes, 119 Comments. TikTok video from twoqueen223 (@twoqueen223): "This horse is so clever.#horse #funny #fyp". original sound - twoqueen223.




www.tiktok.com


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

Lol @COWCHICK77! We have a friend who hates coming down particularly steep things. One day husband was elk hunting with them (for her tag, I was stuck babysitting her kid), and I guess every time it got really steep she would panic. So, that’s what they did. She would get off her horse, tie the reins up, and send him down while she slid down herself. I died laughing at that story. She is a cool person with a good sense of humor, so she totally owns up to it.

My littlest used to panic coming down anything steep. When she was very small, and we would be gathering cows on a specific day every fall that they would go, she would always start screaming bloody murder at a certain point. I mean turn white and shake and scream. She had to come down though, and every year I would sit at the bottom begging her to let her horse come down while she screamed and cried. There was literally no other way. Old Pete, he was such a gem, he would never freak out over his screaming child, but eventually she would give him his head and he would make it down.

Now she is confident riding Zeus, and when we get to that point she always says “I still hate this. I’m glad I’m on Zeus.” I mean, you can count on those words coming out of her mouth. I don’t know if she is still as scared, but she comes down without any screaming.

Zeus is the best mountain horse you’ve ever seen though. For a person like her, petrified of heights, he makes it feel so much different. He’s like a mule I guess.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Knave said:


> Maybe I am reading it wrong, but that’s how statements come off to me on here, and I find it insulting somehow. To me it sounds like “to be any level of horseman, one must follow all of my directives,” and maybe the reason I find it offensive is because it most of the time opposes what I myself would do.


I am finding myself of the same opinion, Knave.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

@Knave LOL! I'm with your daughter, I am terrified of steep ground. I get nervous getting over the third step on a ladder and I have bad dreams of being on a horse sliding backwards off a shale bank.
My husband used to get so frustrated with me gathering cattle in the mountains. I'd rather waste a day re-riding hoping cattle came down on their own than climb up and down steep, slippery ground..LOL


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

@COWCHICK77 I think my littlest feels the same way. She’s never gone on those really steep gather days. The day she used to scream just has this one piece where you have to come down a pretty steep trail. A little sliding, but it is a trail, so it’s not like what you are talking or what we do on those big gather days.

I would say “didn’t your dog get them started?,” to you, but the other day when we were really sick, we got into the steepest country. So, since we were close husband sent Ozzy up. This one cow was a dog fighting witch, and she had the uphill advantage, and he sold out! I was teasing husband, who got his panties in a twist… it was so steep though he didn’t want to ask the horses to go further (plus, he was on Cash, who makes you feel a little touchy when it’s too steep and he doesn’t seem to care about his feet. He’s not terrible, and I think he’s pretty good on steep ground, but his tripping on flat ground makes one hesitant.).

So, I hiked up to those danged pairs, and I threw rocks until they started. So, we start downhill, where we led because it was just so rocky and steep, and when we finally got back on and went around the base of that canyon, we saw those danged pairs went over the ridge and just stopped! So, we had to climb the other side of the danged mountain! Hahahahaha. Ozzy did start them with the uphill advantage though. Boy was I wishing Junie B was there.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I guess when I think about it @COWCHICK77, my oldest doesn’t like it either. She won’t hunt horseback unless we make her. I think she trusts her own feet a lot more in slippery steep stuff. Of course, riding Bones would make anyone hate steep. He is the worst. Not because he’s not sure footed, but because he’s scared.

When he was three I was going along in the first really steep country I had taken him in. He was doing great, and then a cat trail sluffed out from under him. He scrambled and made it to solid ground, but the phobia stuck with him. He is flat dangerous when it gets steep.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

When we first were running the Corriente yearlings on the mountain my good dog was still a pup and still needed me to back her up to build her confidence so I never used to send her to try to fight them down. My husband has never been big on using dogs but he ended up getting a big powerful dog that was already going strong and we sent him a lot to start cattle down, that dog saved me a lot of panicky tears..LOL!
I'm scared of heights any ways and I think riding horses that weren't paying attention to what they were doing in steep ground has what's put the fear in my. The human version of Bones!


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

@COWCHICK77 I totally understand that. I understand Bones’s phobia too, but I sure don’t want to ride him in steep just as much as he doesn’t want to be there.

You need to do some on a Zeus! That does not feel like any horse. We were talking about that last night. I was saying how good Queen felt up there, and she really does. She probably feels the best of any horse of mine I’ve ever ridden in steep (of course she literally grew up on that mountain range), and husband pointed out Zeus. Zeus feels so different it is like being on a smart ATV. He thinks different, and there has never been a moment in steep on him that I didn’t feel like I could do absolutely anything. It feels more solid than using your own feet.

Now, that doesn’t take away the height itself, so I guess afraid of heights is still afraid of heights. If you could walk it on our own feet without panicking though, you could ride him. It’s so different.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Mod note

Thread closed


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