# end of my patience with this nag.



## serafina (May 5, 2011)

I thought I had bottomless patience with horses, but I found out where the bottom of my barrel is today.

I've been riding this challenging lesson horse (challenging, because he has bad manners and is easily bored, and has an unusually broad selection of Horrible Lesson Horse tricks). I've been riding him all summer, and about 8 lessons ago, he became too much of a PITA for words. He races to the barn. He pokes away from it. He cuts corners, he started trying to run my leg into the rail. He doesn't listen to aids. If I lay a leg on to help steer him, he tries to escalate his speed to avoid the aid, and that includes spontaneously erupting into a trot from a walk (WITHOUT being requested for a trot). If I give him a half-halt, he throws his head up and keeps going to avoid the reins. He runs through his trot. At the gate, he throws his shoulder out, rubbers his neck, and will come to a complete stop with my knee on the rail.

The more you ask of this horse, the more he acts up. He was great when I was just learning some basics, but as soon as we got into something a little more advanced, he became as amusing to deal with as a cranky three year old who missed his nap and is melting down in the middle of the grocery store. I was REALLY glad when I got put on a different lesson horse last month...because that other guy LISTENS when I ask him to do something. I lay a leg on gently, and he moves. I ask him for a walk with my seat, I don't even need to use the reins. I direct him closer to the rail with my inside leg and my outside rein, he goes there. I squeeze him lightly and he trots. He flipping well pays attention.

Lesson Hell Horse, on the other hand, I ask him for ANYTHING and the only response I get is a freaking ARGUMENT. He pokes along, I boot him (because he's not listening to any request that is quieter or more polite than a direct bootheel to the ribs), and he shoots me an angry look. He runs through the trot, the instructor is telling me to give him a half-halt, and I'm laughing because I tried a half-halt AGES ago and he ignored it, and I'm so far beyond half-halting that I feel like I might as well be pulling an anchor up from the bottom of the ocean, I'm using that much muscle on his mouth - and his main response is to toss his head up and get crabby.

No, he doesn't behave like this with EVERYONE - I checked - but I also am pretty sure that the difference between me and Everyone Else is that Everyone Else can ride with a whip. I can't think what else is left. Nothing else I've tried gets his attention - unless it is to provoke him to worse and worse behavior. He's not doing anything actively dangerous - not bucking or rearing - but he's not at all fun, and he is 100% frustrating. 

I feel like he's making me a bad rider. I want to learn to ride lightly. I do not want to learn to kick the crap out of a horse to make him move. I do not want to learn to haul hard on a horse's mouth. I do not want to feel like I have to constantly be anticipating the next bout of bad behavior and trying to figure out some way to head it off at the pass. I was TOTALLY bummed today when I found out I was going to have to ride him, because I don't feel like I get anything - other than experience at fighting with a horse - from riding him. 

I am so frustrated with this fleabag. I hate to think that there's some horse I just can't ride, but I also feel like I just wasted a lesson. I think I'm going to have to tell the teacher that I don't want to ride him again, because we're pretty much going nowhere. When I was on the other guy, I was getting ready to canter. This stubborn jackass just took me back to square one instead.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Wow. 
"There are no problem horses, just problem riders"

Good rules to live by. Has he been checked for back pain? Have his teeth been floated recently? 

Lesson horses can be very difficult. And it gets INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATING. They get a whole bag of tricks of how to get out of actually doing work. Have you voiced your concerns to your instructor? Is there a reason Everyone Else gets to ride with a crop except you?

This horse will make you a better rider. Anyone can ride a push button horse.


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## Courtney (May 20, 2011)

Why can't you ride with a whip? I think the biggest problem here is that you've given up TRYING to work with this horse. If everyone else can ride him, why can't you? Carry a whip. You don't have to use it... just show it to him. He might surprise you and respond better.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

serafina said:


> No, he doesn't behave like this with EVERYONE - I checked - but I also am pretty sure that the difference between me and Everyone Else is that Everyone Else can ride with a whip. I can't think what else is left. Nothing else I've tried gets his attention - unless it is to provoke him to worse and worse behavior. He's not doing anything actively dangerous - not bucking or rearing - but he's not at all fun, and he is 100% frustrating.
> 
> I feel like he's making me a bad rider. I want to learn to ride lightly. I do not want to learn to kick the crap out of a horse to make him move.


In all of that this stood out to me...and bear in mind all I know of the situation is what you have shared above.

Sounds to me like you are a quiet person who wants to ask softly, and with this horse you are simply annoying him by keeping on 'suggesting' Some horses you have to be a very strong leader and yes that may mean carrying a whip, and it will quite possibly mean using it hard once or twice.

If you keep on and on gently asking they learn to just ignore you and do their own thing, but if you ask nicely once, then back that up with a hefty wack, then you get their attention and they realize that you mean business. THEN you can ride softly for a while until they start to test again, then you have to remind again.

Remember, despite what we think most horses aren't interested in being our perfect partner, they are all about whatever gets them the best reward, this guy sounds like he will reward a less assertive rider by doing just what he wants and ignoring you.

You become a good rider by learning how to deal with all sorts of horses, in the future you may decide that one sort suits you best, but for now you need to learn on different types, they will all teach you different skills,


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## serafina (May 5, 2011)

Spastic_Dove said:


> Wow.
> "There are no problem horses, just problem riders"
> 
> Good rules to live by. Has he been checked for back pain? Have his teeth been floated recently?
> ...


I think there are problem horses, and this is one of them. This guy is a pain in the ***. He doesn't stand quietly to be haltered. Every single time I (or anyone else) goes to catch him, he has to play games and run away. He uses the other horse in his paddock as a shield to interfere with whoever is attempting to catch him. Once you do catch him and tie him up for grooming, he constantly wants to paw the ground. If you don't stop him the first time, he really goes to town, and he paws and he stamps, and he leans. In the farrier's words, "That horse is usually a WICKED a**hole."

I mount him and he tries to walk off. I stop him from walking off and he yanks on the reins. I get him walking and he wants to pay attention to anything in the world except for the person on his back. I ask him to trot, and he acts like he doesn't know what I mean. I ask him a little harder, and he explodes into a trot. He cuts the corner in the ring, so I use my leg and rein aids *as instructed*. Then he goes as close as he can to the rail without actually hitting himself.

I cue him into a downward transition with my seat, and he keeps trotting. I back it up with a half-halt, and he trots v-e-r-y-s-l-o-w-l-y but he still trots. I have not before seen a non-gaited horse that can actually trot at a walking pace, but he will do it. I plant my seat more firmly and give the reins a pull. He slows to a walk. I reward by releasing the pressure, and he starts to trot again. And yes, I am CERTAIN that I am not inadvertently asking for a trot with my hands, seat, voice, or legs. I halt him out of the trot, we walk for a few strides, he tries to break into the trot again. I pull him back into a walk, and he walks and then starts cutting the corners/riding the rails again.

As I said, I have used these very aids on other horses at this same barn, and there is no communication breakdown. So I'm definitely speaking horse. And this horse has responded to these aids, too, so he definitely knows what they are for. He just doesn't feel like listening to them after a while, and he doesn't.

I believe the instructor knows this is a problem. God knows, she's spent enough time watching him screw with me like this. She's given feedback about what to do, and I follow it, and it usually works no more than one time - after I get him to cooperate with [insert new use of aids here], he decides he doesn't need to pay attention to that either.

So. We're talking about a horse who has decided that he doesn't need to listen to aids. And a rider who is giving pretty consistent aids, and ramping up the intensity of the aids as instructed, which is having the primary effect of making the problem worse, not better, because the horse is STILL not listening to the aids, and is delivering a bad attitude as well. I'm the first to assume that if the horse is not doing something I want him to, it is because I am not asking properly. On this one, because the other horses DO answer, I am pretty sure I am asking properly, and the horse has just decided for whatever reason that he doesn't need to listen.

I do not ride with a crop because I haven't learned to ride with a crop. I am pretty sure the idea is to use the natural aids effectively first, and then back them up with assistance. 

I don't want a push-button horse, but I do want a horse that actually _listens _to what I'm asking for, and one that I don't feel like I'm having to fight and argue with constantly. The other horse I've been riding isn't a mind-reader - he actually has a little too much Go and is prone to trying to erupt into a canter from a walk, and he tries to walk off when I'm mounting, and he's pretty particular about how I ask for a trot - if I don't ask properly, he breaks into a little constrained choppy trot, but if I ask properly, he breaks into a nice big bouncy trot. 

I'm fine with needing to fine-tune my requests...but when I'm trotting, and I sink in with my seat and take any pressure off with my legs and pull back on the reins, I want that horse to WALK not to keep on trotting until he feels like stopping. Likewise, when I lay on my outside leg and deliver some pull through the inside rein, I want that horse to bend around my inside leg and start to circle...not to throw his outside shoulder out and move sideways into the rail while slowing to a crawl.


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## serafina (May 5, 2011)

FWIW, I've got no problem at all asserting my dominance over this guy - I'm the only one who rides him who he behaves for at ALL in the cross-ties, and that's because I am on him like a tick and when he starts to cut up, I head that crap right off at the pass. 

I'm not meek.  I ski black diamonds on icy New England mountains, and I am strong, daring, and assertive and not in the least bit uncomfortable with wielding my personal strength or power with other people and animals including horses - but there's only so far that this goes when the audience does the horse equivalent of sticking his fingers in his hears and shouting "LALALALAL I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Well, I might start looking for another school to train at. You should be enjoying your lessons and not looking at them as a one hour trip through hell. That horse probably dreads his rides with you just as much. Not that you are bad, but because you now have a culture of conflict with him and he picks it up right away and you answer. It's always a tango of two, though that is not saying that you must change your way. If you dont' want to change, you will have to change horses. NO inbetween. He will not change unless you do. No inbetween. You decide.

Either you pick up a crop and start MAKING him listen or you look for a horse that is not so deaf.

YOu can maybe have the so called "come to Jesus " meeting with him.

that means when you get on and he walks off, you pick up one rein and turn him in such a tight circle that he is rapidly disengaged, then as for a slow walk off.
If you ask for a trot and he trots so slow , you crack him one with the crop. Just be ready for a small explosion. If he reacts by big bucks then he is just too much for you. There ARE horse that just plain and simply are too much for you, and me and most anyone.
Only you can really decide that.

But if you decide to find another school, there is no shame in that. Just be aware that there might be some other problem shcool horse there, too.

I wish you luck and I symjpathize. I doubt I would enjoy riding such a horse.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

serafina said:


> No, he doesn't behave like this with EVERYONE - I checked - but I also am pretty sure that the difference between me and Everyone Else is that Everyone Else can ride with a whip. I can't think what else is left. Nothing else I've tried gets his attention - unless it is to provoke him to worse and worse behavior. He's not doing anything actively dangerous - not bucking or rearing - but he's not at all fun, and he is 100% frustrating.


I just came across this thread. I don't know about your history or your ability. Based only on the paragraph above, I would be more inclined to ask "What am I doing wrong?" not asking what is wrong with this lesson horse. I'm afraid that, as an instructor, I would not put a whip in your hands. 

If the horse was acting that way with everyone, then I would be looking for a different place to ride but, as you say, he is only like that with you.

Lesson horses can get very cranky after a summer of new riders banging away on them but if you are the only one who is having a problem, then I would more inclined to think that the problem is you. Now you need to figure out why.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

I've owned just one school horse and I would never buy another. Mine would listen to me most the time but when he didn't want to listen he would out hard head me and make my life miserable in the process. He knew every trick in the book and how to jar every bone in my body when he was mad (he was a TWH). 

I was told to try a crop on him to make him listen. I used it once and only once, that horse got so ****ed at me it wasn't funny. Think it deeply insulted his pride to be touched by a crop and one thing that horse had was a ton of pride. But then he had been a champion show horse prior to being turned into a schooling horse.

That was a bit off topic but my advice is to ask to be schooled on another horse. If the trainer doesn't listen to your request, look for another trainer.


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## QH Gunner (Aug 16, 2011)

I think you should stay on him & LEARN TO RIDE HIM. Maybe your trainer is putting you on this specific horse for a reason... To work out what he considers your problems. The worst that can happen is you get thru it all & become a ether rider. Just keep your head up, keep thinking positive, & try your best to keep a positive outlook & not just think you cant do it, because chances are you can 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## serafina (May 5, 2011)

iridehorses said:


> I just came across this thread. I don't know about your history or your ability. Based only on the paragraph above, I would be more inclined to ask "What am I doing wrong?" not asking what is wrong with this lesson horse. I'm afraid that, as an instructor, I would not put a whip in your hands.
> 
> If the horse was acting that way with everyone, then I would be looking for a different place to ride but, as you say, he is only like that with you.
> 
> Lesson horses can get very cranky after a summer of new riders banging away on them but if you are the only one who is having a problem, then I would more inclined to think that the problem is you. Now you need to figure out why.


I'm not asking for a whip and don't have any intention of doing so. When my instructor thinks it's time to teach me to ride with a crop, she'll do it. 

The whip only comes into it when I ask myself "Why does this horse listen to the others, but not to me, even though I am sending him VERY consistent signals, and signals that are heard, understood, and acted on by other horses?" And the answer is, "All the people he listens to ride with a crop."

This is an extremely smart horse, and he knows that I don't have anything "bigger" in my arsenal than a boot to the side, and he's taking advantage of it. My teacher, herself, has said this very thing. 

In addition to being the only person who rides him regularly that never rides with a crop, I am also the only person who rides him with any regularity that insists that he behave when he's tied up. I do not let him lean, I do not let him paw, I do not let him throw his weight around, I do not let him bit me on the butt when I'm bending over to do his hooves. Everyone else puts up with this behavior and says "Oh, that guy." I learned, early on, that if you let this horse get away with ANYTHING then he tries to get away with EVERYTHING. The teacher also observed this. 

He is not generally used in the lesson program, probably because of exactly this kind of thing. He *has* been getting used a lot with the Horse Camps, and his behavior started going downhill like a shot when the camps started up.

He behaves for all of 15 minutes, in fact, I didn't think I was going to have a problem with him for a while today, but he wears out his "good" pretty quickly. I am pretty sure that - among other things - he's getting bored and acting out. 

*So, one more time, please, before anyone else gets too slap-happy about blaming me for this bad behavior - the FARRIER hates dealing with this horse, NO ONE including the barn owner or the horse's owner or any of the stable hands, catches this horse in the paddock without a major hassle, and *I* am the ONLY person this horse will even halfway behave for from the ground because EVERYONE ELSE - this includes the people who are riding him with crops - lets him get away with whatever he wants to do on the ground, INCLUDING pawing a giant hole in the ground by the hitching post. The teacher has observed, in these words, that the horse is screwing with me and has decided that he just doesn't have to listen to anything I tell him from the saddle.

*So, yes, I am a better rider from having been riding this guy. I have been exposed to an impressive panoply of undesirable behavior, and have developed an extensive toolkit for dealing with it, because every time I get something that works once or twice, he starts up with something new, or stops paying attention to the new tool. At this point, I am spending 100% of my time on this horse working on new ways to deal with his crap, and 0% of it developing technical riding skills, like circling, pole trotting, serpentines, cantering, etc. I cannot get into any of that stuff because, as I mentioned above, this horse blows through the aids. He is also making me a WORSE rider, in that he's teaching me to be heavy handed, heavy on the leg, and not to use my seat (because while he pays enough attention to the other aids to change his posture, if not to do what I'm requesting, he pays no attention whatsoever to my seat).


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

I am not sure what you are looking for in this thread. Given your responses perhaps the only option is to take lessons on another horse.

Losing your patience with a horse will never lead to success in any dimension of horsemanship. You must either change your approach, which you don't seem too willing to do, or try another horse before you really sour the relationship further by continuing to nag him ineffectively.

Yes, I sympathise to an extent and it does seem like he is a particularly obstinate character. I wonder if your instructor is having you ride him as something of a test? It may just be that he is beyond your experience level at this point. I wouldn't suggest such a thing so blatantly except for the fact that you have stated that others do not experience the same problems.


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## serafina (May 5, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> Well, I might start looking for another school to train at. You should be enjoying your lessons and not looking at them as a one hour trip through hell. That horse probably dreads his rides with you just as much. Not that you are bad, but because you now have a culture of conflict with him and he picks it up right away and you answer. It's always a tango of two, though that is not saying that you must change your way. If you dont' want to change, you will have to change horses. NO inbetween. He will not change unless you do. No inbetween. You decide.
> 
> Either you pick up a crop and start MAKING him listen or you look for a horse that is not so deaf.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this. I haven't been riding this guy lately, and it's been such a freaking relief. It's so much nicer to ride a horse that halters up politely, stands quietly to be groomed, and responds to requests by saying "OK" instead of launching an argument. I got switched off to the polite horse when the hell horse threw a shoe - that's how I know that the farrier hates working on him, because I stuck around to watch - and the teacher said I was going to be just switched to the polite horse. I don't know why I got the pleasure of riding the hell horse this afternoon - this isn't my usual lesson time, and polite horse was being worked before I got there, so maybe he'd just been worked enough today.

I'm a novice rider, and I'm up to handling a fair amount of nonsense, but this guy is just too much of a pain in the butt under saddle for me. I feel like, yeah, it's good to be able to ride a wide range of horses, but honestly...if this was my horse, 1) it wouldn't be my horse, because I want a horse I can enjoy instead of one that tests me every second of the day, and 2) I would have packed this guy off to a trainer, someone with the experience to remind him thoroughly of how to listen to the aids and behave on the ground.

His owner is 13 years old, and this may explain some of the problem.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

There really is no magic to riding with a crop, I'm unsure why you think you should need much instruction.

Just a thought, some horses just behave differently when you carry a crop, so maybe it's time to ask about adding that to your bag of tricks


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Riding with a whip is not complicated and now sounds like a good time to learn. I would at least ask your instructor why you're the only student who is forced to ride this horse without a crop.


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## serafina (May 5, 2011)

sarahver said:


> I am not sure what you are looking for in this thread. Given your responses perhaps the only option is to take lessons on another horse.
> 
> Losing your patience with a horse will never lead to success in any dimension of horsemanship. You must either change your approach, which you don't seem too willing to do, or try another horse before you really sour the relationship further by continuing to nag him ineffectively.
> 
> Yes, I sympathise to an extent and it does seem like he is a particularly obstinate character. I wonder if your instructor is having you ride him as something of a test? It may just be that he is beyond your experience level at this point. I wouldn't suggest such a thing so blatantly except for the fact that you have stated that others do not experience the same problems.


I am frustrated, and expressing that frustration. It seemed better to do that here than to tell this horse that if he cut up one more time, I would personally load his butt on the truck to Mexico. 

Sympathy or useful suggestions would be nice, but there appears to be a lot of jumping to the conclusion that this horse is behaving well for everyone but me. This is not what I have said. What I have said is that this horse behaves very badly on the ground for *everyone, *that I am the only one who won't put up with that, and that *all of *the people who ride him without a huge amount of pushback and arguments from him are people who ride with crops. I am not sure how any of this leads to the assumption that the main problem is with *me,*since his behavior with anyone who is 1) not on his back and 2) wielding a crop while they are up there is disrespectful (and I said all of that before here).

I would also like to explore in what ways I can change my approach, because listening to my teacher and doing what she tells me to doesn't seem to be working. I am doing exactly what she suggests, and he either doesn't pay attention, or he pays attention once and then stops listening thereafter. The other thing that hasn't worked is requiring him to deliver respect, or at least the appearance of respect, from the ground.

The teacher is the one who told me to kick him, because he wasn't listening to my leg. She is also the one who observed that he was trying to avoid listening to the aids by acting up in other ways. I am wondering if there is some other trick, other than increasing the intensity of my requests via the aids, because *I am already doing that as instructed*, to get and keep this little blighter's attention, or if there are some horses that just need to know that the crop is there and will get used. 

Additionally, I am concerned that riding this horse is teaching me bad habits. I do not think that I should have to haul on a horse's mouth like I'm towing a truck with my bare hands. I would prefer not to kick a horse at all, let alone to have to do it pre-emptively every time I get to the X or M. 

My preference is to ride another horse, because I have *none* of these problems with the four other horses I have ridden at this stable.

I am not sure how to handle this with the stable. If I were making any headway at all with this horse, it would be one thing. I *have* gotten to the point where it's easier for me to catch him than it is for most of the other people who ride him. And he makes no more than a token effort with the bad behavior in the ties when I get him there. He *does* understand that even though the others let him get away with any old thing in the ties, he cannot do that with me. If I was seeing that kind of progress in the nonsense under saddle, I wouldn't be so frustrated, but I'm not. Every time I ride him it's the same dratted thing - he cuts up, I correct him, he gets bored, or tired of listening, and then it goes directly downhill. It has gotten to the point where I feel like any lesson on him is wasted, because I spend the *entire *time dealing with his nonstop challenges and arguments. I do not want to ride him, because he is a pain in the butt. *For everyone, not just for me.* He can get away with it with me under saddle easier than he can with the others, but it doesn't mean that he doesn't try.


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## serafina (May 5, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> There really is no magic to riding with a crop, I'm unsure why you think you should need much instruction.
> 
> Just a thought, some horses just behave differently when you carry a crop, so maybe it's time to ask about adding that to your bag of tricks


Thank you for that - I don't know how to hold it, or where to hold it, or how, where, and when to use it - that judgment bit is where instruction would come into it. 

I am coming to the conclusion that I either ought to stop beating my head against the wall and refuse to ride this guy, or to ask about the crop. I haven't needed anything like that with the other horses I've ridden here - I might have to remind them to pay attention once in a while, but pretty much, they all keep their attention pretty clearly focused on me, and when I ask them to do X, Y, or Z, they say OK. Some even say OK!  But they're all, like, "you're the boss, just tell me what to do..."


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

serafina said:


> *I am already doing that as instructed*, to get and keep this little blighter's attention, or if there are some horses that just need to know that the crop is there and will get used.





Golden Horse said:


> There really is no magic to riding with a crop, I'm unsure why you think you should need much instruction.
> 
> Just a thought, some horses just behave differently when you carry a crop, so maybe it's time to ask about adding that to your bag of tricks



Already answered that one, but obviously you are wanting to vent rather than look at the advice, so

There there, I'm sure that is a horrible experience for you, I hate riding horses with bad manners as well.


Now that is actually said in all seriousness, but very little actual sympathy, because I own my own horses, and I have had to work darn hard to find that special key that makes everyone work, and they are all different. I can choose, mainly who to ride on what day, which is different, if I don't feel like dealing with whatever challenge each one presents I can choose another, but it never goes away. I look at it as an eternal puzzle which is fascinating.

Nearly as fascinating as why you have identified that the one single difference that you can identify between you and other riders on this horse is that they carry a whip, but you haven't gone on to see if this theory works for you.


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## serafina (May 5, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> Already answered that one, but obviously you are wanting to vent rather than look at the advice, so
> 
> There there, I'm sure that is a horrible experience for you, I hate riding horses with bad manners as well.
> 
> ...


No, I'm interested in the advice too - I think my response to you thanking you for the crop suggestion crossed paths with this post.

I haven't gone there because it wasn't until I was writing the top level post that I realized that the only other people who ride him successfully carry crops. I was racking my brains trying to figure out why I can get him to behave - more or less - on the ground and they cannot (or do not) yet he will behave - more or less - for them under the saddle. That's when I realized that I had seen all of them, at one time or another, ride with a crop. 

So I haven't had an opportunity to run this one up the flagpole at the barn, because I only just thought of it.

I am also, as a side note, trying out different horses to see what I like and what I don't, before I buy one for myself. Coming to the conclusion that I like some independence of spirit, but I want a little more cooperation in the mix...I'm sure that this guy is absolutely some people's cup of tea, in the same way that some people feel called to teach in junior high. I like a little challenge, but not this incessant uphill battle.


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## Ferhoodled (Jun 7, 2011)

serafina said:


> Thank you for that - I don't know how to hold it, or where to hold it, or how, where, and when to use it - that judgment bit is where instruction would come into it.


It sounds like you're riding dressage (judging from the X & M reference), so you'd probably be using a dressage whip, which is longer than a crop. You should hold it in your palm and grasp the reins normally. You can do it in such a way that you're not actually gripping the whip itself, but it's laying in your hand securely and comfortably. With a whip, it's long enough that it can lay gently across your thigh when not in use. To use it, you can just rotate your hand so that the whip leaves your thigh then comes back down across it, landing the tip on the horse's hindquarters, if that makes sense. It shouldn't really move your hands from the normal rein position. You should always ask the horse normally first, then if he doesn't respond you'll use the whip. It sounds like this guy might require a nice smack, while others will just need a "tickle" or tap. The idea is obviously that after awhile, they know you mean business and they'll listen the first time you ask.

If you have a crop (shorter), you'll have to put both reins in one hand so you can reach back with your free hand to use the crop in the correct spot. If you attempt to use the crop across your thigh like I described for the whip, you will successfully smack yourself and not the horse :lol:

With the whip, be extra careful to have steady, correctly placed hands. Bouncy or raised hands can cause you to inadvertently hit the horse when you're not trying to cue for anything. Some horses will really put it in gear if you hold the whip up all the time accidentally, because they're convinced you're going to absolutely beat them to a pulp or something. Also, you might need the whip/crop more for one direction than the other, or you might have to switch sides when you change direction. That would be better explained in person by your instructor, but I hope the other stuff helps some. Good luck! Hang in there


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

In your post you said you half halted ages ago when the instructor told you to do so. Well that's a problem right there - 1st time apply the aid lightly, no response? 2nd time apply it more forcefully, nothing? 3rd is the strongest, briefly of course (half-half lasts a nano second only), give it all you got! Nothing still? Stop & back the horse up. Do this everytime he ignores your half halt. I stand by the famous quote "A good rider rides from transition to transition. A great rider rides from half-halt to half-halt."


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Why do you have to ride this horse if he makes riding so miserable for you? If you are paying for lessons and this horse is this much of a hellion, ride a new horse. 

Is that possible?


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## serafina (May 5, 2011)

waresbear said:


> 1st time apply the aid lightly, no response? 2nd time apply it more forcefully, nothing? 3rd is the strongest, briefly of course (half-half lasts a nano second only), give it all you got! Nothing still? Stop & back the horse up. Do this everytime he ignores your half halt. I stand by the famous quote "A good rider rides from transition to transition. A great rider rides from half-halt to half-halt."


Thanks very much for the advice - I need to think on this...not to think "are you right" but to think about how this will work with this guy and what he's doing.

I half-halted and he took no discernible notice of this at all. The instructor has told me that you *can* hold a half-halt up to 3 seconds, so I tried that. It was amazing. He just kept right on running through his trot, only with his head a lot higher up in the air. So then I really sat firmly on him, let my weight start dropping firmly into the saddle, not lightly, firmed up my core, firmed up my arms, took up the reins some more, and did the equivalent of slamming on the brakes. 

Even with that, it was another quarter-trip around the ring before he slowed his trot and stopped running through it...and when I let up on the pressure, he went right back to running through the trot.

I have learned to back the horse up from the saddle, but I haven't spent a lot of time practicing this. This guy definitely does not like to back up, so I use that a fair amount when he gets pushy and obnoxious on the ground. 

I wonder if we just need to go back to the drawing board on this guy and back his butt up every time he ignores one of the aids...what I suspect is that he's got some basic problems with disrespect (which he does to everyone), and on top of that, the horse camp experience has messed up his responses to the aids (I'm assuming it's that, because this is when his behavior started to really go downhill). Seems to me the backing-up approach might work to resolve both of those issues...


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## serafina (May 5, 2011)

Spastic_Dove said:


> Why do you have to ride this horse if he makes riding so miserable for you? If you are paying for lessons and this horse is this much of a hellion, ride a new horse.
> 
> Is that possible?


I actually have been riding a different horse, and when I switched horses a couple of weeks ago, I realized just how much of my energy I was spending trying to extract a minimal level of cooperation from the horse. I also realized how many bad habits I was developing in the course of that process. Riding is so much easier when the horse doesn't argue with every bloody request from the rider. It's so much more fun when you aren't spending all of your attention trying to figure out what nasty trick the horse is going to play next so that you can head it off at the pass. It's so much nicer to groom a horse that stands still for the process.

I'm not sure why I got stuck with this guy again today - it may be because the lesson was at a different time and my new lesson horse had already been worked a good bit.

I've been riding the horse with the bad manners all summer, and had sort of gotten used to his nonsense (which, as I mentioned above, started getting worse after he started getting used for the horse camps. Then I had a break from him, and going back to him really brought home how much fun it isn't to ride him. I let the teacher know a little while ago that I don't think he's a good match for me, and that I don't feel like I'm getting much benefit out of these battles, so unless there is some important benefit that she sees but I don't, I would prefer to ride a less argumentative horse.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

You know sera, it's not up to you teach this lesson horse to respond to a half halt. And your instructor should've given you more instruction when he ignores you. You are spending good money, enjoy it and find a horse you like to ride that doesn't squash your legs against the rails. Yea, yea you can learn so much from these brats, true enough, but when you don't welcome a challenge or feel up to the task, it's unpleasant and that's not what riding is about. Unlike me, I would love to have a go with that brat.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Why should you pay your good money to train somebody else's horse? What a rip-off. If you are paying for lessons, and they have other horses, take lessons on another horse. To me, it sounds like the horse and the teacher are trying to bully you. Tell the trainer that either they let you use another horse or you will take your money elsewhere. Chances are, that is what the other students have done. That is why you are left with the dud. All that is going to happen if this continues is that you are going to decide to find another hobby. I hate to see that happen.


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## serafina (May 5, 2011)

Thanks for the words of advice and support, Waresbear. This guy has presented me with a lot of valuable learning opportunities, but right now, I do think he needs to spend some real quality time with someone who is in a position to shake the brattiness out of him. My teacher mentioned (unenthusiastically) that she gets to ride him next week. Maybe she'll put some better manners on him.

And probably, when I'm a much better rider, I'll look forward to this kind of challenge. I am interested in it, in general, but with this guy, I'm mostly just...tired.  In the meantime, I left a message with her that unless she's seeing some kind of important development that I'm not in a position to observe, I'd prefer to ride someone who isn't going to argue with all of my requests.


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## serafina (May 5, 2011)

And thanks, also, Celeste. I wondered about this when I first started riding him and realized I needed to teach him how to behave on the ground (or at least, how to behave around *me* on the ground...). I felt on one hand like, it's not my horse, I shouldn't have to train it. But then people say that every time you handle a horse, you're training it whether you intended to or not, and I can see that is a fair statement too.

But this, this really is a bit too much. If his aids got blown by horse camp, someone else needs to fix that. If he's just awfully arena sour and this is his way of protesting, I can understand that - he does prefer the trails - but again, you're right, this isn't my problem to fix. I am thinking about leasing the other horse I've been riding (the one that I find fun to ride, and who is teaching me to ride with my seat instead of with my reins). He's claustrophobic and a little pushy, so it's not like he's some kind of Perfect Angel, but he's not exhausting like this other guy is.

 No worries about me finding another hobby. My level of total frustration with this horse aside, I am totally hooked on these guys. And I even usually like the guy with bad manners, I just don't like him *today*.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

serafina said:


> Thank you for that - I don't know how to hold it, or where to hold it, or how, where, and when to use it - that judgment bit is where instruction would come into it.
> 
> I am coming to the conclusion that I either ought to stop beating my head against the wall and refuse to ride this guy, or to ask about the crop. I haven't needed anything like that with the other horses I've ridden here - I might have to remind them to pay attention once in a while, but pretty much, they all keep their attention pretty clearly focused on me, and when I ask them to do X, Y, or Z, they say OK. Some even say OK!  But they're all, like, "you're the boss, just tell me what to do..."



Yep, ask for a different horse. being challenged is one thing, but I agree that for you to get some basic seat work in , would ultimately make you strong enought to deal with this devil, whereas now you struggle all around. He sounds like a horse I would try hard to avoid. This is not the way to start out riding.

I used to ride a large warmblood who was always just a tad too much horse for me. Everytime I asked for a canter I was holding my breath in fear. I don't know if I am better enough now to ride him without fear now. He's gone and I have a calmer horse. To ride a horse that matches one better is a total joy!

Look for joy.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

1 - If you have a question, ask your instructor. She is getting paid to answer questions, and she is there. If she cannot give a good answer, find a different instructor.

2 - Horses that don't listen to cues need both escalation and repetition. One of the horses I ride for lessons will sometimes behave that way. A part of my learning is to learn behaviors that improve his response. Sometimes a crop helps. But sometimes one needs consistency in expecting a response. If you give a half-halt and he rides through it, either give it longer or escalate. Every time the horse gets away with not doing what you ask, a smart lesson horse will apply that to other areas of riding.

When I ask for a half-halt (the instructor uses a different name), I won't release the horse on the bit until the horse yields - and the instructor will be watching to help me know when to release. That may mean gentle pressure for more than 3 seconds - the first time. Then repetition brings that down. Even the stubborn horse, after a half hour, gets the idea that it is easier to respond promptly to a half-halt than push through it.

That carries over into asking for trotting, etc.

3 - When you ask, you also need to start asking every time at the lowest level. If you get frustrated and skip the lower levels, you'll never get the horse to lower intensity.

4 - Frustration doesn't help. If your horse is getting intense, YOUR intensity needs to lower. My daughter's instructor describes it as the Rule of 10: Horse & Rider should add up to 10.

5 + 5 is great. If the horse is 3, the rider needs to be 7. If the horse is 9, the rider needs to go to 1.

My instructor makes a point that you cannot communicate with a horse when frustrated. Sometimes, you need to back off and practice achieving baby steps with the horse.

And yes, that is a lesson in riding horses. When I get on my pain in the rear mare (and pain in my hip, pain in my wrist, etc), I cannot get by riding like I would on a calm lesson horse. I need to learn how to change her mood while on her back. Learning cues is easy. Learning to control your horse is hard. But you aren't much of a rider until you learn the latter...and I have a LONG way to go. I won't get there if I only ride easy horses.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

bsms said:


> 4 - Frustration doesn't help. If your horse is getting intense, YOUR intensity needs to lower. My daughter's instructor describes it as the Rule of 10: Horse & Rider should add up to 10.
> 
> 5 + 5 is great. If the horse is 3, the rider needs to be 7. If the horse is 9, the rider needs to go to 1.


I love this, I've never heard it explained like that before, but it is so true.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time! I posted something very similar a couple of weeks ago.
Very similar issues. In my case, I had lessons on three other horses who were fantastic and really showed me how to be a better rider.
Then, since they were sold, I ended up on a wicked mare who did nothing but fight me the entire time.

I know what you mean about spending your time fighting the horse and not progressing with your riding. I don't believe that means in any way you want a push button horse. It means you want a horse that responds to your cues. How the heck are you supposed to know if your cues are correct if the horse responds to none of them?

I feel sorry for a lot of lesson horses. I'm sure they hate their job. But I hate spending that much money for a lesson and doing nothing but fighting.

I'm doing well on my wicked mare, but you have to be a "hard" rider on her, which I don't care for. I miss the other horses that I was riding that I could make stop by deepening my seat. I hardly used my hands at all. This horse requires some serious force to stop. I feel like my riding is less pretty and more harsh. 
I miss the slight squeeze it took to make the other horses move. This mare needs kicking....hard. 
I'm still learning. But I will definitely ask to switch horses once they get a new lesson horse. 

I do NOT believe that there are no bad horses only bad riders. Where did that come from? There are certainly bad horses out there. Horses who would sooner run you into a tree than take you for a ride. There are seasoned experienced riders who get rid of horses that aren't working for them.
So are only the pros allowed to decide a horse isn't working for them? A beginner is not allowed to say, "Hey, me and this horse aren't clicking. Next." 

Then there are horses that are "bad" but only for certain owners. Owner sells them to a new home and the horse is an angel. So there can be bad horses and there can be horses that are bad for certain riders. 
I believe if a person is in the earlier stages of riding, it's of the utmost importance to get a good horse. Not the perfect horse. Just a horse you can trust and one who listens. Not a lazy, burned out lesson horse who lives to evade work. 
And not all lesson horses hate work. My other three seemed to enjoy riding. Or at least tolerate it. 

If this poster came here stating that every single lesson horse sucked, I'd say it was her, not the horse. But what is wrong with a rider *of any level* deciding a particular horse isn't working for them?


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

btw I don't mean my post to sound snarky. I just feel bad for the op that people seem to be blaming her for the horse misbehaving. Even the best of riders will have a horse act up on them through no fault of their own. I don't know why someone who is a beginner would be blamed for a horse's behavior? (honest question)

oh and forgive me seraphina if you aren't a beginner! I'm just assuming.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Seraphina is a novice by her own words. As such, she is blaming the horse for being a problem when she is the only one having a problem yet not admitting that she could have any part in it aside from not being able to have a whip.

IMO, reading back on her posts in other threads and on this one, she doesn't have the experience. - I've read her blaming a horse for lameness, or the wrong saddle - never her riding. She has an instructor who should, again IMO and based on this thread, be more involved with the problem and either gave her a different horse to work with or the instructor has a purpose that we are not getting.

In the vast, vast majority of horses with problems, it stems back to the rider - especially a novice rider. When a horse is "bad" only for one rider - it is the rider. Beginners do not have the experience to actually know how a really good horse feels and why another horse doesn't feel the same way. They may think they do but most have not yet had that "ah ha" moment when it comes together. Too many new riders are not yet horsemen but want to be or think they are because they know the terminology. That only comes from a great deal of experience. That being the case, always blame the rider not the horse until someone much more capable can tell the difference.

I'm an experienced rider and I've gotten rid of a fair share of horses that didn't work for me. In my case the horses either didn't have the ability I was looking for or the disposition I needed - (but I've got a lifetime of riding horses and ownership for over 30 years). That can't always be seen with just a couple of rides while trying out a horse. The difference here is that the OP is a beginner and as such, doesn't have the experience to know the difference.

Can a novice rider have a horse that doesn't work for them? Certainly, but you don't come on here calling the horse a nag and if it were theirs, they would send it to slaughter. 

This is all my 2¢ so take it for what it's worth to you.


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## serafina (May 5, 2011)

iridehorses said:


> Seraphina is a novice by her own words. As such, she is blaming the horse for being a problem when she is the only one having a problem yet not admitting that she could have any part in it aside from not being able to have a whip.


Who put the burr under your blanket? Have you actually read the rest of the thread, or did you stop with your response to the original post? Especially the parts where I talked about how this horse is considered to have bad manners on the ground for everyone? 

I didn't say that I have no part in this other than not having a whip, and from your first post back to me, it was clear that you'd fixated on the whip and made a bunch of assumptions that I thought I should have one, which I didn't, and I pointed this out *to you.*



iridehorses said:


> IMO, reading back on her posts in other threads and on this one, she doesn't have the experience. - I've read her blaming a horse for lameness, or the wrong saddle - never her riding. She has an instructor who should, again IMO and based on this thread, be more involved with the problem and either gave her a different horse to work with or the instructor has a purpose that we are not getting.


When have I *blamed* a horse for having a bad saddle fit? Go back and look at the title of that thread - asking if it's the rider, the saddle, or the horse. Go back and look at the last post in that thread, as well, where I concluded it by saying that the issue was a combination of saddle fit and issues coming up from the lameness, and *and that the instructor had taught me how to deal with it by using an advanced (her words) technique with my seat.*



iridehorses said:


> In the vast, vast majority of horses with problems, it stems back to the rider - especially a novice rider. When a horse is "bad" only for one rider - it is the rider.


Again, what part of "this horse has bad manners on the ground for everyone" and "farrier hates working on it" says that I am the only one with problems riding this horse?



iridehorses said:


> Beginners do not have the experience to actually know how a really good horse feels and why another horse doesn't feel the same way. They may think they do but most have not yet had that "ah ha" moment when it comes together. Too many new riders are not yet horsemen but want to be or think they are because they know the terminology. That only comes from a great deal of experience. That being the case, always blame the rider not the horse until someone much more capable can tell the difference.


Now you're rolling a bunch of your assumptions together, *and* ignoring what I said about the instructor being aware that this horse gives trouble. What makes you think that I'm trying to come off as a more experienced rider than I am? I've been perfectly clear this whole time that I'm a novice. 

*I have been dealing with this horse's bad manners for FOUR MONTHS. I have already BEEN through the "maybe this is my fault" thing, more times than I can count. I have been through it with my instructor, who has said, and I quote "Usually it's something the rider is doing, but this is 90% the horse." *



iridehorses said:


> I'm an experienced rider and I've gotten rid of a fair share of horses that didn't work for me. In my case the horses either didn't have the ability I was looking for or the disposition I needed - (but I've got a lifetime of riding horses and ownership for over 30 years). That can't always be seen with just a couple of rides while trying out a horse. The difference here is that the OP is a beginner and as such, doesn't have the experience to know the difference.


*FOUR MONTHS OF TWICE-WEEKLY LESSONS DOES NOT COUNT AS A "COUPLE OF RIDES".* And while I am a novice rider learning English, I have been riding horses on and off for 35 years and grew up around them. 



iridehorses said:


> Can a novice rider have a horse that doesn't work for them? Certainly, but you don't come on here calling the horse a nag and if it were theirs, they would send it to slaughter.
> 
> This is all my 2¢ so take it for what it's worth to you.


Since you evidently didn't bother to read anything in the OP other than the word "whip" and immediately went off the deep end with your assumptions (many of which are not substantiated) and judgmental attitude, and have offered no actual advice, your $0.02 is not worth much to me. If you weren't clear on the situation, which it is obvious that you were not, you should have asked a few questions to get a better idea of what was going on before jumping all over me.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

You are welcome take it as you like. Plenty of advise was given to you by many members. BTW, I did read the thread all the way through and my opinion hasn't changed. Some of it pertained to you and some were general statements of my opinion - do with it as you will or ignore it - your prerogative.

Oh, and bad manors on the ground doesn't necessarily mean in the saddle.


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## serafina (May 5, 2011)

Heelsdown said:


> I'm sorry you are having such a hard time! I posted something very similar a couple of weeks ago.
> Very similar issues. In my case, I had lessons on three other horses who were fantastic and really showed me how to be a better rider.
> Then, since they were sold, I ended up on a wicked mare who did nothing but fight me the entire time.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Heelsdown. I remembered you having a problem like this, and how frustrating it was for you. I know what you mean about how unpleasant it is to have to be a hard rider. I was astonished (and a little appalled) when my instructor told me to boot this guy the first time. And I told her yesterday that it bothers me to have to use the degree of force I do with his mouth. For a while, she was having him ridden in a cavason to see if that helped his responsiveness - I think it worked, but not well enough to keep the cavason. (not sure that's how it should be spelled, it's this cross-piece thing that attaches to the bridle and goes over his nose).

Riding this guy wasn't "fun" at the start - with him, it's never really been a question of "is" he going to misbehave but "when" and "how" is he going to misbehave. But it was valuable in teaching me that with some horses, you have to really stay one step ahead of them and look for that stuff, and cut it off before it has a chance to get started.

Riding him taught me that with some horses, at least, if you let them get away with one little thing, it can cause a huge amount of hassle in very short order. With him, the "one little thing" starts as soon as he sees you coming. He's such a hassle for everyone to round up in the pen that the barn had gone, for a while, to throwing his food in his shed and just penning him up in there to make him easier to catch. That seemed to have the effect of making his behavior worse, though - on those days, he is 2x the PITA in the ties that he usually is, to the point where I wondered if it wouldn't just be easier to let him out and let him play his "you can't catch me" game.

For most of this time I've asked myself "How am I contributing to this?" and sometimes I have been - he was yanking the reins early on because I hadn't yet learned to keep my hands still - but mostly, the teacher tells me, that what I'm doing wrong, for lack of a better word, is not staying on top of his crap fast and hard enough. She's constantly giving me different ways that I can do that (stay on top of it) but, as I mentioned above, these things usually work effectively once on him, and then lose their effectiveness pretty quickly thereafter. He's gotten to be an expert at avoiding the aids over the summer. His ground manners have always been terrible, and he's always been really challenging in terms of constantly being on the look-out for an opening to exercise some kind of bad behavior, but he wasn't this difficult to ride in June. 

So, as a couple of people pointed out above, it looks like he needs to get some retraining, but it's not my job to do that, especially not as a novice, and especially because he's not my horse. I hate throwing in the towel and saying "I just can't ride that guy" but honestly, riding him is mostly just exhausting and frustrating. It hasn't been any fun at all in nearly a month. It wasn't until I rode the other horses that I realized just how tiring and not-fun it is.


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## serafina (May 5, 2011)

iridehorses said:


> You are welcome take it as you like. Plenty of advise was given to you by many members. BTW, I did read the thread all the way through and my opinion hasn't changed. Some of it pertained to you and some were general statements of my opinion - do with it as you will or ignore it - your prerogative.
> 
> Oh, and bad manors on the ground doesn't necessarily mean in the saddle.


Yes, and the people who gave me actual advice have been thanked for it in the public forum. You, on the other hand, have misrepresented my own words, dragging them out of context and putting a completely inappropriate interpretation on them, and presenting them publicly to other individuals. You've clearly made a bunch of judgments about what kind of person I am, and you've gone searching for evidence that you felt supported those judgments, and you've ignored the evidence that doesn't. This is rude and abusive, and I really expect better from the moderator of a group.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

I do have a couple of suggestions for you. If this is my horse here is what I would do:

1.) Get out of the arena and on to the trails. Working on all the same things but in a new environment and you may find that you have a re-invigorated horse. I LOVE using trails for working on leg yielding exercises and find that the horse enjoys it too.

2.) Lose your stirrups. Drop those legs around his belly and work on getting crystal clear aides. Ask, tell, demand. Crisply and decisively.

3.) You love riding, so try to keep that in mind when your horse is not responding in the way you want. Instead of thinking "Argh I can't stand it when he does XXX" think "Hmmm, how else can I ask, huh what a puzzle."

I have been training horses for a number of years and if there is one thing I can tell you, it's that when you point one finger at your horse you are pointing three fingers back at yourself. Horse riding is the one sport that requires constant self assessment and of the brutally honest kind. Let me give you a sample of what is running through my mind as I am riding:

"You lost your shoulders, roll them back..... Stop looking at his head, it won't fall off..... Where has my lower leg gone?.... Raise your hands they have dropped too low..... More inside leg you're losing your bend..... Argh now you've lost impulsion, push him on......"

Constantly.

Every two seconds I am trying to correct a different mistake I am making. That is WITHOUT another pair of eyes on the ground telling me all the OTHER things I am doing wrong! So don't worry, we are all on a course of constant self assessment and correcting mistakes that we are making. The horse however never makes a mistake, they are a reflection of our riding.

I can see you are a little defensive but let me give you some insight as to why some of us are defensive: Many of us have been riding and training for years, I myself have been doing it for 15 years and that is _nothing_ compared to many of my fellow members. If there is one thing that really irks me, and I suspect anyone else that has trained/re-trained horses for others over a period of time, it is hearing a person blame their horse for ANYTHING. Many of the posts I believe were trying to illustrate this point to you and in type it perhaps it came across a little harsh. Take it as you will but rest assured that no-one is trying to offend you, they are just coming from the other side of the fence.

ETA: And good luck! I hope you rediscover that passion!


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Sarafina, I told it the way I read it based on your posts. If want to hear what you want to hear and think the rest is rude, than that is what you will take form the forum. Good luck to you in your lessons and I hope you heed some of the advise you've been given.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

sarahver said:


> I can see you are a little defensive but let me give you some insight as to why some of us are defensive: Many of us have been riding and training for years, I myself have been doing it for 15 years and that is _nothing_ compared to many of my fellow members. If there is one thing that really irks me, and I suspect anyone else that has trained/re-trained horses for others over a period of time, it is hearing a person blame their horse for ANYTHING. Many of the posts I believe were trying to illustrate this point to you and in type it perhaps it came across a little harsh. Take it as you will but rest assured that no-one is trying to offend you, they are just coming from the other side of the fence.


 
While I absolutely agree with this, it sounds at this point Serafina that you aren't quite ready to deal with the behaviors this horse is presenting you. I think it would be wise of your instructor to get you on a horse slightly less challenging and work on the skill set needed to deal with one as challenging as your current lesson mount. 

Has your instructor gotten on this horse during a lesson or another for that matter and demonstrated hands on how to work through his quirks? I always ride one of my training greenies while giving lessons as it presents a greater opportunity to teach working through problems should they arise. 

I've been dealing with a similar situation with my hubby. I've been logging some serious re-habbing hours on "his" mare and have gotten her coming along fabulously. I can pretty well do anything I want with her using just my seat and legs, pivot, sidepass, stop on a dime. She's very tuned in. The problem, hubby rides her and she works like a drunken sailor. He has extremely muscular calves and his legs are very on without him needing to try to ride legs on. He has yet to find the balance in his legs to keep her between them and with the slightest varying pressure she is kinda all over the place for him. He got fed up and was ready to throw in the towel and started blaming the mare (though he has seen her work flawlessly for me first hand) and had taken to calling her "Lucifer". So for the last few weeks he has spent time riding my older mare who is very much more tolerant of his unintentional misguidance. He has found more balance and improved greatly on keeping one between his legs. He rode his mare last night and got her to ride straight lines and made a perfect square. He said "Wow, never thought that would happen. Now I see that it was me, I kinda like her." 

Don't give up, look at both yourself and the horse and figure out where the miscommunication is happening. It sounds like a crop could be the variable & if that is what it takes to get him working, approach your instructor about learning to ride with a crop on a more seasoned horse and then go back to the challenge.

Regardless of fault on the part of rider or horse, lessons should be enjoyable and at this point it doesn't sound like they are in the least. Have a sit down with your instructor, discuss how you are feeling and what you both need to do to get you back to having fun with your lessons. Good luck!


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

A lot of rude people get on these threads. Please don't let them discourage you. The saying about "no bad horses" is a crock. The horse may have been made bad by a rider, but it was not you. He has probably been spoiled for years. You are paying for lessons. You deserve a trained horse.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Celeste said:


> A lot of rude people get on these threads. Please don't let them discourage you. The saying about "no bad horses" is a crock. The horse may have been made bad by a rider, but it was not you. He has probably been spoiled for years. You are paying for lessons. You deserve a trained horse.


Fair enough, you may have a valid point in some instances. Before you cast aspersions would you kindly highlight which posts were rude and illustrate exactly why they were _rude_ vs. stating a valid opinion without sugar coating.


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## pintophile (May 18, 2011)

You have received a ton of great information on how to get this horse working that it appears as though you are taking. I just thought I would add my thoughts. I come from an experience very similar to yours-horse was very difficult and I didn't know who to blame.



serafina said:


> Again, what part of "this horse has bad manners on the ground for everyone" and "farrier hates working on it" says that I am the only one with problems riding this horse?


Ground manners do not always translate to under saddle. They help, but do not mean that a well mannered horse on the ground is going to be the same undersaddle. The horse I'm talking about above has always been a perfect lady on the ground, and a little firecracker undersaddle. Not the same thing. 

I don't doubt your ability to crack down and get tough with this horse, as I think that's what you're trying to convey. 



> *I have been dealing with this horse's bad manners for FOUR MONTHS. I have already BEEN through the "maybe this is my fault" thing, more times than I can count. I have been through it with my instructor, who has said, and I quote "Usually it's something the rider is doing, but this is 90% the horse." *


Would you believe it, but my instructor told me the same thing. Almost a year I pretty much went to war every time I rode the horse, and EVERY lesson she told me: "You ARE a good rider! It's not your fault!" Well, it was after a few months of self-reflective riding that I realized she could not have been more wrong. Yes, it IS my fault. It always HAS BEEN my fault, and I am willing to bet it always WILL BE my fault if something's going wrong. It was only after I came to that realization that I've been able to progress, and because I am so self-critical, she has improved by leaps and bounds and is still heading uphill.

This horse sounds like a real jerk and lesson horses are great at learning how to take advantage of their riders. My horse was never a lesson horse, so I could not blame anyone else for the bad behaviour. In this case, I'll bet that yes, this horse was spoiled by dozens of poor riders and he is a bit of an ****. But has been said, again and again: "MOST horse problems are actually rider problems." This horse CAN be ridden-you just need to figure out how, and I'm sorry your instructor hasn't been giving you the help you really need.



> *FOUR MONTHS OF TWICE-WEEKLY LESSONS DOES NOT COUNT AS A "COUPLE OF RIDES".*


32 rides...to the guys who have been riding for 30 and 40 YEARS, 32 rides _is_ "a couple of rides". 8 lessons a month is not enough to prove much of anything, as you seem to be aware of.



> Since you evidently didn't bother to read anything in the OP other than the word "whip" and immediately went off the deep end with your assumptions (many of which are not substantiated) and judgmental attitude, and have offered no actual advice, your $0.02 is not worth much to me. If you weren't clear on the situation, which it is obvious that you were not, you should have asked a few questions to get a better idea of what was going on before jumping all over me.


Why do you need to be rude and nasty to anyone who doesn't immediately sympathize with you? The only one I see going off the deep end and flying into a fit is YOU. I understand you're frustrated that some people aren't telling you what you want to hear, but that's no reason to get defensive.

I have read every word of this post. I KNOW this horse behaves for you on the ground, and everyone else hates him. I KNOW the other lesson horses behave for you, and this guy is a jerk no matter what you try. And, as iride said, it doesn't change my opinion. The sooner you learn to look at yourself critically, the sooner you'll be able to make progress with this horse.

I don't really understand what you wanted out of this thread. You've gotten tons of advice on how to make this horse behave, you've gotten sympathy, and you've gotten people who are telling you that you're the problem. Did you just want to vent? 

*Nobody is going to be able to convince you over an internet forum to change your opinions. In reality, it's up to you what you want to do. If you don't want to ride this horse, TELL your instructor. DON'T ride him if you don't want to. If you feel he's holding you back, either learn on a different horse or find somewhere else to learn. *

I think it's worth mentioning though (or reminding you, since you've had horses for over 30 years), that horses are like this. Not every one is a responsive, willing, obedient mount, and some are going to be _very_ frustrating. What is it you want to do? Do you just want to ride for fun and play around with a good old schoolmaster, or are you looking to go farther and really expand your talent? If it's the latter, this jerk is a good way to teach it to you. If it's the former, then find a good old push button to ride. It'll be a lot more fun, and you'll find a lot less frustration. I would agree that really tough lesson horses aren't as fun to ride, and that's what horses should be about, right? If you're not having fun, then find a way to.


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## tempest (Jan 26, 2009)

Could you possibly have your instructor get on him and ride him for you? Just so you could watch and see how he behaves with a trainer on him? And if he behaves, how they got him to behave?


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## QH Gunner (Aug 16, 2011)

Pintophile makes extremely good points. 

Just an observation though, if you got this uptight & worked up over people not saying what you like or disagreeing with you online, how do you react when the horse doesn't do what you want? Because if it's anything like this, that could be 90% of the problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

QH Gunner said:


> Pintophile makes extremely good points.
> 
> Just an observation though, if you got this uptight & worked up over people not saying what you like or disagreeing with you online, how do you react when the horse doesn't do what you want? Because if it's anything like this, that could be 90% of the problem.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


....and BINGO was his name-o.
I have a lot of thoughts and advice, OP, but having read throug the entire thread, it has become very clear that you are not interested in any constructive input from the point of view I would approach your situation, so good luck.


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## WhoaNow (Jan 18, 2011)

When dealing with horses, it's BEST to have an INFINITE amount of PATIENCE.
Anger, or impatience with horses is a bad mixture, and might get somebody hurt.
If you think you've run out of patience, then that's the 'light bulb moment' telling you,..., 
You need *MORE* patience.

Good luck, RELAX, and remember that horses have a brain the size of a walnut.
YOU have to be smarter, because you aren't stronger.
Brute strength does not win a disagreement with a horse.
Try soft quiet reasoning instead.

Also as John Lyons said at one of his many wonderful symposiums,...,
"If your horse jerks you, and you jerk him back, 
you just become a couple of jerks, jerking each other around".

Don't become one:wink:


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

The sun is shining and we should all go ride.


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## Buckcherry (Nov 18, 2010)

IMO part of taking lessons is riding different horses and learning to deal with their individual problems. There are some great lesson horses out there but some of them develop bad behaviors from being a lesson horse and having beginner riders on them. 

I think that it is boring to just get on a horse that is a total push button. Now Im not saying that I want to ride a horse who rears or bucks etc... But I have and I didn't give up on them I rode them through it. Because that is what makes you a better rider. 

You shouldn't expect to always ride a horse that is perfect. I understand if you want to develop your skills more, then yes it is hard to do that on a horse who is giving you problems. But Don't you think that if you stuck with it and learned how to deal with this horses problems that you would feel much better about your self and your riding ability. 

Part of riding is riding difficult horse, not dangerous but difficult and when you work through those problems believe me it feels great.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I would like to politely disagree with "stay on him and learn to ride him." I took lessons, but then I ran a small riding academy with my OWN horses. Most instructors do not have the luxury of retraining the horses in their lessons. They are not the owners. I had a few horses that never had a beginning rider on their backs, but many students graduated to them because they required light aids, and they were quick to respond, which would scare a beginner.
This horse sounds spoiled and lazy. I wouldn't trust him. I know somebody that has a horse like this. My mare hates him. Only owned her 3 years but it's the ONLY horse she has come across that she vehemently reponds to. (She can be ridden by anybody, BTW--didn't break her, just bought her that way.)
The horse she hates is pushing 12 yo and the owner gets a "no" on lots of little things, and the owner gives in. His horse is a powder keg. I don't wanna be there when he explodes. He's an 18hh Fresian/TB cross.
MY original Hunter instructor would pull a student and get on to fix a problem if he saw the horse wasn't responding. We didn't have anybody hurt (that I know of.) We did have a "hunter graduation" where our teacher was the "Fox", some of us (me included), were the hounds, and everybody chased him around the Forest Preserve on an Autumn Saturday--1970's, you see. He had ribbons pinned on his back. If you found him and grabbed one, you got a gift from the tack shop. I STILL have my TB racing pin. **sigh**


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

serafina said:


> ...With him, the "one little thing" starts as soon as he sees you coming. He's such a hassle for everyone to round up in the pen that the barn had gone, for a while, to throwing his food in his shed and just penning him up in there to make him easier to catch...


Either get an explanation from the instructor, or go elsewhere. Problem solved. You're welcome.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

sarahver said:


> Fair enough, you may have a valid point in some instances. Before you cast aspersions would you kindly highlight which posts were rude and illustrate exactly why they were _rude_ vs. stating a valid opinion without sugar coating.


The post that showed a picture of the rocking horse was pretty rude. 

I think it's too easy for seasoned riders to forget they were too once a frustrated beginner. I doubt they came out of womb knowing how to ride.



> When a horse is "bad" only for one rider - it is the rider.


There is a lot of truth to this. I'm sure there is a total lack of resIpect on the horse's part toward Serafina.
I know with my horse, my trainer said she doesn't respect the green riders. You have work hard at making her respect you. 
My horse listens to intermediate/advanced riders, but will try every trick in the book with newbies. IMO, a horse that does this is not a very good beginner horse. She's maybe an advanced-beginner (if that makes sense) or intermediate level.

But had I been forced to ride her from the first lesson, I probably would have quit riding. 

My trainer said that some horses see a rider with a crop and immediately they listen better. You may not even have to use the crop. The horse might see it and think "Doh!"


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## jdb8580 (Aug 17, 2011)

SPOILED!!! I think thats what this horse is. Now, it could be something different but it sure sounds that way. It sounds to me that he is fine and comfortable doing exactly what he has been doing, and doesnt want anything else to do to change his routine. That all being said, it also does seems that there is something that you have been doing different than the other people who ride him since he only acts up with you. I think the one thing I would take from this experience is that he is not making you a bad rider...he is making you better. If you cannot adjust how you ride, or what habits you can change in a certain situation, that when you can classify yourself as a bad rider. I understand that this is not the type of horse that you want to be on, but imagine how much better you will be able to adjust and ride the good one once you get on him. You will appreciate him that much more and actually get more out of him as well. After you spend some time riding junk horses you actually will get a better performance out of great horses. Last thing to think about..."You do not have to like every horse, but you have to figure out a way to have every horse like you."


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Celeste said:


> The sun is shining and we should all go ride.


 
I did, I rode 6 today


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

FMFoundationQuarters, you got ME beat. I rode all of my 3 last saturday, and it wore me out. I'm REALLY getting old...


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I've been old. 
I am going to ride today though.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Corporal - the sad thing is I didn't get my own personal horse rode yet today. He's getting his turn after my hubby gets home & the kiddo is in bed. I ride at least 4 a day, those that are in for training and if I'm not lame at that point I ride mine lol!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

This horse isn't a waste of riding time. Later on down the road you will realize just how much you have learned with him. With horses like him I like to play their game except I change the rules without telling him. If he wants to move off as you are mounting, fine, get him going and don't let him slow down. Same if he decides to trot without your asking. When he wants to slow down, tough noogies, keep him going until he's puffing. A whispered whoa will be enough to get him to stop.As a teen I rode many lesson soured horses and they taught me how to become a skillful rider and how to outsmart them.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

iridehorses said:


> Oh, and bad manors on the ground doesn't necessarily mean in the saddle.



Just wanted to say this is very true, since I've ridden several horse like this.


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

*Sarafina...*

I have read several pages so far and not one has brought up STRONGLY (there was one op that mentioned it in passing) that this may be a lesson horse only to help pay for his board, or a lot of other reasons. That doesn't make him a LESSON HORSE. All that makes him is a horse that gets a saddle put on, and yanked, and kicked, and probably has a mouth like the rock of Gibraltar, and if you looked at his sides, probably has two inch thick extra padding from being kicked, spurred, and I won't even go into the whip part. I'm sorry that so far no one has given you the benefit of doubt about the horses behavior. 
If a lesson horse needs to be ridden with a whip, he is NOT a lesson horse. I know in dressage people use those as aids during performances but not trying to get a horse dulled by years of abusive and rough handling to behave. I absolutely agree with you if you're going to learn to carry a crop or whip it should be to further your education, not to, excuse me because it's not a pun, beat a dead horse. Good Luck, Cheryl


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Saddlebag said:


> If he wants to move off as you are mounting, fine, get him going and don't let him slow down. S


Saddlebag- The walking off is a problem I have with a horse I exercise. If you are literally one-foot-up in the stirrup as they start moving off, can you explain what you would do to get them going and not slow down until you're ready? This is a sincere question, I would love your advice as it at times is a potentially dangerous situation where if I'm not 110% paying attention, I could easily get walked off on with one foot in the stirrup, one on the block. I would very much like to end this bad behavior. My strategies so far have been to mount with someone holding the head (obviously not always possible) or to put her facing a corner where moving off is not physically an option (which results in a mounting block sitting in the middle of the corner I'm trying to ride, but is otherwise a successful strategy).

Sorry to hijack the thread for a minute. SB, you can PM me if you prefer...


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## Amber and Mac (May 12, 2011)

Haven't really read everybody's response but here's what I have to say. Been riding horses since I was young. Only went to lessons once in my life (i was taught to ride by my family) and they had a horse that was old and just didn't want to go any more. I still learned to ride him. It was the most frustrating thing ever. But let me tell you this, A horse can sense what you're feeling. If you're feeling upset, the horse will respond. If you're happy then the horse will be content. And yes if you are frustrated or mad the horse will sense it and respond to it in ways..well it'll know it can take advantage of you.

Some horses (all that i've ridden) will test you. My gymkhana horse tested me A LOT when i first rode him. I thought I never wanted to ride him again. He took off on me and did all sorts of thing, you get it right? I was sick of what he was doing with me so I said, That's it. It's time to show him who's boss. YOU the rider are the boss. You want to go right but your horse wants to go left. Make the horse go right. I'm not quite sure how I can explain how I showed my horse who's boss but after a couple weeks, He started listening to me. This problem also happened with my pony. She bucked me when I tried to lope her. But you have to show her who's boss. So after >repetitive< loping in circles one way and then the next, She finally loped without bucking. It wasn't the best lope but she progressed. 

Although, Maybe you just aren't bonding with that horse. I find that with every horse i ride I had to bond with them one way or another. That way the horse and I get each other. Maybe you should spend more time with that horse outside of the ring. Spend more time brushing him, etc. 

Don't give up on a horse, ever. Every horse has potential and, If you don't give any effort neither will the horse.


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