# Friesian Coat Colors



## Shilohthewildhorse (Oct 21, 2016)

In the distant future I would like to purchase a Friesian mare to breed to a Friesian stallion, in hopes of producing a jet black colt. If you breed a bay Friesian mare and a black Friesian mare to the same black Friesian stallion, would one have a better chance of producing a black foal than the other? Or would they both have an equal chance?

I know with Labrador Retrievers you can breed two black labs and end up with an all yellow litter. Does the same apply to horses?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

There aren't bay friesians, so it's not a problem. The only other color produced in friesians is chestnut, but it is very rare. Black is dominant, so unless both the stallion and mare carry the red gene, then the foal will always be black.


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## Shilohthewildhorse (Oct 21, 2016)

Oops! My mistake. I was looking at Friesian listings and saw quite a few bay ones. After seeing what you wrote I went back and looked at those listings again and saw it said Friesian Cross, not pure Freisian. Thanks for clearing it up for me!  Hopefully I can get my hands on a pure Fresian mare in the future. From what I've seen, they are very expensive. 

Going back to my original question.... do you know if a black Friesian cross is more likely to produce a black foal than a Friesian cross of a different color?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Everything depends on genetics.

Best way to guarantee a black foal is to test to make sure at least one of the parents is homozygous black (carries two black genes). The other problem is if one of the parents is bay, depending on if they have one or two agouti genes, there's a 25-50% chance of the foal being bay.


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## Dwarf (Jun 26, 2014)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Everything depends on genetics.
> 
> Best way to guarantee a black foal is to test to make sure at least one of the parents is homozygous black (carries two black genes). The other problem is if one of the parents is bay, depending on if they have one or two agouti genes, there's a 25-50% chance of the foal being bay.


If the horse has two agouti genes it will always pass one, if it has only one agouti gene 50% of the time it will pass it. So it's 50-100% chance of bay foals depending on what it has.

Your best chance of a black foal is breeding black to black. If one parent is homozygous black (EE) then the foal will always be black, if both parents are heterozygous (only one black gene, Ee) there is a 25% chance of chestnut, but 75% chance of black.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Yeah, my math sucks today. :lol: It's been a rough day.


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

All pure Fresians are black, since that is the standard for the breed, so any pure Fresian mare bred to a pure Fresian stallion would produce a black foal. Any other color is a cross with another breed, usually a TB, saddlebred, or other breed that comes in more colors.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Mulefeather said:


> All pure Fresians are black, since that is the standard for the breed, so any pure Fresian mare bred to a pure Fresian stallion would produce a black foal. Any other color is a cross with another breed, usually a TB, saddlebred, or other breed that comes in more colors.


Except chestnut. I think they're called "fox friesians." It is a color that happens very rarely, but it does happen in pure friesians. There are only a few bloodlines that carry red. Granted, fox friesians can't be registered with the FHANA, but they're still pure friesian. Friesians actually used to come in several colors, including bay and grey, similar to Percherons.


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Except chestnut. I think they're called "fox friesians." It is a color that happens very rarely, but it does happen in pure friesians. There are only a few bloodlines that carry red. Granted, fox friesians can't be registered with the FHANA, but they're still pure friesian. Friesians actually used to come in several colors, including bay and grey, similar to Percherons.


Ah, cool! Today I learn!


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## Shilohthewildhorse (Oct 21, 2016)

Dwarf said:


> If the horse has two agouti genes it will always pass one, if it has only one agouti gene 50% of the time it will pass it. So it's 50-100% chance of bay foals depending on what it has.
> 
> Your best chance of a black foal is breeding black to black. If one parent is homozygous black (EE) then the foal will always be black, if both parents are heterozygous (only one black gene, Ee) there is a 25% chance of chestnut, but 75% chance of black.


So if I breed black a mare with unknown genes to a pure Friesian Stallion would the foal be black? I guess my true question is do all Friesian stallion have black EE genes or could he possibly be Ee? Since black is always dominant with Friesians?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Even a purebred friesian stallion can be Ee. However, most good breeders will have their stallion's genetic testing available to mare owners who want to breed to their stallion. You can always test your mare. It generally costs about $45, I think, through somewhere like UC Davis.


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## Shilohthewildhorse (Oct 21, 2016)

Oh that's not bad at all. I assumed it would be much more expensive. I will probably test the mare then before I buy her to see what her genes are.

Thank you all for the info!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Easier than going through the rigamarole of testing a mare before you buy, paying all the money for her, then having to spend all the money for vetting and stud fees and mare care throughout the pregnancy (and not being able to ride the mare during that time), would be to just buy a friesian weanling on the ground. That way you're guaranteed to get a black foal, you're saving yourself a TON of money, and you still get to experience having a baby around. JMPO, though.

http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/horsecolorpanel.php


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

It seems like you need some education on how the black gene works. While the "black"gene (E) is dominant over red (e), agouti (A) will then turn bay if it is present. 

So a homozygous black friesian stallion(EE) is your best option, but as other people have mentioned- there are a number of friesian stallions standing with a copy of the red gene currently(meaning they are heterozygous black- Ea). 

A black mare is either EE(homozygous) or Ee(heterozygous). As long as she is bred to EE you are guaranteed a black foal. Bred to a heterozygous black you have 75% chance of black and 25% chance of chestnut. 

A chestnut mare would be your next best chance of black(AS LONG as she is negative for the agouti gene) you would need to genetic test her to find out. That mare, Bred to EE would guarantee you a black foal. Bred to Ee is 75% chestnut and 25% black. 

Bay CAN get you black but is more of a genetics lesson than I feel like giving right now and your chances really start getting much lower.

I agree- buy the foal you want rather than trying to make it!


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Make sure you do a lot of research into the friesian health issues and conformation issues before you settle on them. I love mine and the ones I work with, but they have can have MANY SERIOUS health issues, are not built for many things so need to be helped through their conformation flaws. Canter can be difficult for them depending on the line, and you need to know how to ride big movement and how to get them working through their back properly. They can be frustrating with their stamina and ability to condition.


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## Shilohthewildhorse (Oct 21, 2016)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Easier than going through the rigamarole of testing a mare before you buy, paying all the money for her, then having to spend all the money for vetting and stud fees and mare care throughout the pregnancy (and not being able to ride the mare during that time), would be to just buy a friesian weanling on the ground. That way you're guaranteed to get a black foal, you're saving yourself a TON of money, and you still get to experience having a baby around. JMPO, though.
> 
> horsecolorpanel


This is something I definitely have and will consider when the time comes, but I just really want to have the foal from the moment he/she is born. I want to raise the foal exactly how I want to, ensure he gets handled a lot and exposed to sights and sounds, and truly mold him into a wonderful horse. I know foals are weaned when they are only four to six months, but I see it as six months of time for handling and exposing I would have lost. I'm not sure. I'll have to see where I'm at financially when the time comes.


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## Shilohthewildhorse (Oct 21, 2016)

Dehda01 said:


> Make sure you do a lot of research into the friesian health issues and conformation issues before you settle on them. I love mine and the ones I work with, but they have can have MANY SERIOUS health issues, are not built for many things so need to be helped through their conformation flaws. Canter can be difficult for them depending on the line, and you need to know how to ride big movement and how to get them working through their back properly. They can be frustrating with their stamina and ability to condition.


This is really my first move to do research on Friesians, and I will definitely do more over the years before I decide to purchase one. Ever since I was little I have always admired the beauty and grace of Friesians and have always wanted one. I would definitely not buy one willy nilly without doing the proper research and ensuring I can properly care for one (and am up for the extra work). Thank you for the info though. I don't know if I want to deal with a horse who has a lot of health issues. Besides the fact that it is expensive, it's emotionally straining! I get worried sick whenever my current horse has health issues. When the time gets closer I'll seriously consider how I feel about all the issues Friesians have. I love Friesians, but don't want the health issues.....sigh.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

So your first research is into how to get the color? 

You can get the look with many morgans, Canadians and other draft crosses without many of the inbred health issues and health issues. But you really need to figure out why you want the friesian and what your goal with them would be. 

You have to balance the price tag with your goals and their flaws. Each breed has pros and cons. I am one of the friesians biggest fans, but.... they are not perfect and poorly bred ones are not good and have poor conformation that will fight you. 

Partbreds can be lovely or look like they were made by committee. I am often disappointed. While sometimes the best of both breeds and parents can come through, you can get the worst too... and they can still have the small heart and lung capacity and health problems come through.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Shilohthewildhorse said:


> This is something I definitely have and will consider when the time comes, but I just really want to have the foal from the moment he/she is born. I want to raise the foal exactly how I want to, ensure he gets handled a lot and exposed to sights and sounds, and truly mold him into a wonderful horse. I know foals are weaned when they are only four to six months, but I see it as six months of time for handling and exposing I would have lost. I'm not sure. I'll have to see where I'm at financially when the time comes.


I got my gelding as a two-year-old stud colt. He hadn't been out of his stall in six months and the extent of his handling before that was being led to and from turnout a few times a week, which was about a hundred feet each way. Before my old BO rescued him as a weanling, he'd been living pretty much free-range with a herd on the farm where he was born. It took me about two to three months to get him good on the ground. I took him on trail walks (basically walked him like a dog on the trails and roads around the barn), I did ground work with him, I spent literally every day with him. Now, he's unflappable and one of the easiest horses to handle at our barn, despite the fact that he's a solid 17hh and 1600lbs (he's a paint/Percheron cross). My BO loaded him up last week and moved him to our new barn without any help right before a snow storm. He's only been in a trailer (now) four times in his entire life. He settled into the new barn like he'd lived there his whole life. The only thing that phases him is goats and turkeys. I'm sure if he was exposed to them more, though, he'd be fine with them. He loves pigs.

If you start with a good mind, it makes up for A LOT of "missed" handling and exposure. Four to six months isn't that much in the grand scheme of things.


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## Shilohthewildhorse (Oct 21, 2016)

Dehda01 said:


> So your first research is into how to get the color?
> 
> You can get the look with many morgans, Canadians and other draft crosses without many of the inbred health issues and health issues. But you really need to figure out why you want the friesian and what your goal with them would be.
> 
> ...


I have at least 10+ years before I will be seriously looking into buying a foal or mare - whatever I buy. I have PLENTY of time to do health research as well. The color was just something that crossed my mind today.

For your second to fourth paragraphs, I completely agree with you. It is very possible I will decide to purchase a black draft breed instead of a Frieisian. It does seem much simpler. Either way I have loads of time to think about it and do research.


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## Shilohthewildhorse (Oct 21, 2016)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I got my gelding as a two-year-old stud colt. He hadn't been out of his stall in six months and the extent of his handling before that was being led to and from turnout a few times a week, which was about a hundred feet each way. Before my old BO rescued him as a weanling, he'd been living pretty much free-range with a herd on the farm where he was born. It took me about two to three months to get him good on the ground. I took him on trail walks (basically walked him like a dog on the trails and roads around the barn), I did ground work with him, I spent literally every day with him. Now, he's unflappable and one of the easiest horses to handle at our barn, despite the fact that he's a solid 17hh and 1600lbs (he's a paint/Percheron cross). My BO loaded him up last week and moved him to our new barn without any help right before a snow storm. He's only been in a trailer (now) four times in his entire life. He settled into the new barn like he'd lived there his whole life. The only thing that phases him is goats and turkeys. I'm sure if he was exposed to them more, though, he'd be fine with them. He loves pigs.
> 
> If you start with a good mind, it makes up for A LOT of "missed" handling and exposure. Four to six months isn't that much in the grand scheme of things.


You do have a point that six months is not that much in the grand scheme of things. It does sound like a better idea to buy a colt that was just weaned rather than breed my mare and go through that whole process. No matter what age I get a colt at I know it will take a lot of daily work and commitment.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

There are a lot of breeders out there, for any breed, that give their foals a good start with proper handling. That would be a good start for research. 

A black horse will be either Ee (black carrying red) or EE (black not carrying red) A bay horse is black with dominant agouti (AA or Aa) AA will always throw a donimant agouti Aa will be 50/50 on throwing the dominant gene. So if you have a bay mare that is AA she will always have bays when bred to a Friesian stallion. If you have a bay mare that is Aa it will be a 50/50 chance of bay or black. 

I have a half friesian mare that is black. Her mother is a bay saddlebred unknown by me for carrying red so I don't know if my mare carrys red or not without testing her. My mare's two siblings are bay. When I bred my mare to a cremello stallion who is known to carry two dominant agouti genes by testing (agouti doesn't affect red) I knew that I had a chance of getting either a palomino or a buckskin. Had I tested my mare for red and found that she does not carry it, I would have known that the resulting foal would be 100% chance of being buckskin. The resulting filly was buckskin and I pretty much know that she is EeAanCr


Here is a good site for coat color calculating


http://www.animalgenetics.us/Equine/CCalculator1.asp


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Something else for you to research about Friesians would be the costs and requirements for registration. They have very strict rules and inspections are not cheap by any means. In fact, the better quality stud books will strip registration of any stallion that breeds a non-Friesian mare. So the best stallions only cover purebreds, they keep their registration in the stud books, their foals are more valuable (especially if they are inspected, registered and shown)

The crossbred friesians are a hit and miss for having the looks of a Friesian. Many end up as trainwrecks due to the fact that it is a very high gamble of getting a mess when breeding two very different breeds of horses (most Friesian crosses are not from crossing a Friesian to another heavy boned draft type). The good looking Friesian crosses (1/2 Friesian 1/2 something else) typically look like a heavy boned horse with decent hair (sometimes) but I have yet to see a good looking 1/2 Friesian with feathered feet (as stated before, they are almost always crossed to a lighter boned saddle type breed)

Do some research and find out if there is a breeder near you. Get to know the breed up close and personal, you may find that they are totally unsuitable for what your goals are. If your goal is for a trail companion, they are a very expensive trail companion and nearly every other horse can do the same thing if not do it better. 

As to raising a foal and working it from the moment it hits the ground, the first several months are not crucial for human hands. In fact, newborn foals have an extremely short attention span. 5 minutes and they are done with "training", if not before that. Push them past their attention span and you will create a terrible monster. Treat them like a dog/puppy and you will have to untrain them when they are bigger and don't respect people space. The most important thing for a foal to learn is not what you teach them, it is what their mother and herd teaches them, how to be a horse and socialize with other horses.


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