# Help, What Am I Doing Wrong?!



## montcowboy (Nov 11, 2012)

sorry to hear its going badly. i find when im working horses.and its the same english or western is that horses get bored. tired of a routine work out. i change it up when i see signs of losing contact with them. ride outside of the arena some. when im training a reigning horse i find that for every hour i work in the arena they need a few hours out of it.doing other things. keep them enthused for working out. not sure if this might help.but it beats selling him..good luck.


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## Mochachino (Aug 14, 2012)

Are these new behaviors that have just developed over the past two months. No indications of this when he first came to you?


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

montcowboy said:


> sorry to hear its going badly. i find when im working horses.and its the same english or western is that horses get bored. tired of a routine work out. i change it up when i see signs of losing contact with them. ride outside of the arena some. when im training a reigning horse i find that for every hour i work in the arena they need a few hours out of it.doing other things. keep them enthused for working out. not sure if this might help.but it beats selling him..good luck.


Thank you, that actually sounds like a great idea when I get back from ny I will try that and see if it works thank you so much! Oh and I would never sell him I love him too much lol


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Mochachino said:


> Are these new behaviors that have just developed over the past two months. No indications of this when he first came to you?


Well at first he was fine. He has always been fast cuz he is a green 8 year old, but usually I just slow my posting, seesaw the reins, or do checks with the reins and he will come back to me. The last two rides he hasn't listened to any of that though.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Needs lots of ground work. He is totally bossing you. Need to lunge him lots of direction changes get him paying attention to you. Don't let him run for awhile lots of walk trot walk trot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm going to say pain may be involved here. Some horses throw bucking fits - others run right through the pain. 
Get all of his tack checked, particularly the bit/his mouth. I find horses with issues with their bit or mouth will have a tendency to say "ouch this hurts, mom listen! Ouch this hurts - screw this I'm just gonna GOO!!" Do you use a rubber covered bit? I find sometimes those get chewed up and get very sharp. Are you relying too much on the bit for riding? If you're riding his mouth all the time you're just teaching him that heavy reins do not mean stop. Nagging on his mouth with seesawing or checking may be making the issues worse if it is a mouth/bit issue. What bit are you using? Maybe it's too severe? If you don't have a noseband that holds his mouth shut will he gape his mouth with light work? Is the bit hitting his pallet? If it's a twisted bit, is it symmetrical on both sides? This is going to sound funny but I've seen this all too often xD Twisted mouth pieces that aren't symmetrical, if you take the bit off to clean the bridle or something, and put it back on so the original left side is now on the right (essentially turning it upside down) the twisted points are in new spots on their mouth that haven't gotten used to that intense pressure, so now the horse flips a gaskit! 

I don't as often see horses run through back pain, but I have seen it happen with good horses who know bucking is a death sentence, so they just bomb through it. So I would check his everything, but particularly the mouth/bit. 

Is there a reason you decided not to just work him in smaller circles? Have you taught him a solid one-rein stop for emergencies.

Personally, I agree with the idea of 'making going fast your idea' but asking a hot, excited horses to gallop, then expecting him to stop is silly. If you're going to use that you better be prepared to gallop quite a while. Go until he's ready to stop then ask for a bit more - assuming this isn't a pain issue!!!! 
If this were my horse, after ruling out pain I'd work him in a low relaxed walk, doing many small figures through the ring. Never letting him go straight long enough to really pick up speed. Then when he's got it relaxed and easy at the walk, work on a relaxed, easy trot.

Has your instructor been with you when he's done this? What do they say about the situation?


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Needs lots of ground work. He is totally bossing you. Need to lunge him lots of direction changes get him paying attention to you. Don't let him run for awhile lots of walk trot walk trot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have been doing lots of that and that was the first time I have cantered him in about two weeks. I have been doing figure 8, and serpentines,lots of w/t or t/w transitions. I have done halting, backing and a ton of circles. I try to do less and less circles because with his previous owner that was all she did with him so I'm trying to expose him to new things. One thing that and pardon my language, ****es me off is that I'm apparently not allowed to do any jumping with him anymore because according to my instructor "I make him nervous" when all I do are cross rails, so I haven't been doing those, I do trotting poles when they are laid out. So I have been doing pretty much everything with him except jumping. I even try to make it fun and ride bareback sometimes, I did a trail once with him and my friends but I suppose I could get his mind focused again by doing more trails. I do pivots, and stretching exercises too. Thanx for posting!


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> I'm going to say pain may be involved here. Some horses throw bucking fits - others run right through the pain.
> Get all of his tack checked, particularly the bit/his mouth. I find horses with issues with their bit or mouth will have a tendency to say "ouch this hurts, mom listen! Ouch this hurts - screw this I'm just gonna GOO!!" Do you use a rubber covered bit? I find sometimes those get chewed up and get very sharp. Are you relying too much on the bit for riding? If you're riding his mouth all the time you're just teaching him that heavy reins do not mean stop. Nagging on his mouth with seesawing or checking may be making the issues worse if it is a mouth/bit issue. What bit are you using? Maybe it's too severe? If you don't have a noseband that holds his mouth shut will he gape his mouth with light work? Is the bit hitting his pallet? If it's a twisted bit, is it symmetrical on both sides? This is going to sound funny but I've seen this all too often xD Twisted mouth pieces that aren't symmetrical, if you take the bit off to clean the bridle or something, and put it back on so the original left side is now on the right (essentially turning it upside down) the twisted points are in new spots on their mouth that haven't gotten used to that intense pressure, so now the horse flips a gaskit!
> 
> I don't as often see horses run through back pain, but I have seen it happen with good horses who know bucking is a death sentence, so they just bomb through it. So I would check his everything, but particularly the mouth/bit.
> ...


Wow lots of questions. My instructor has seen me but just kinda stares at me lol and knows not to say anything when I'm ****ed. Ummm as far as bit goes I just changed it but I don't know which one it is but it's not twisted and its also a d-ring. The one I had before was a full cheek but again not sure what type, but its not harsh at all, that why I changed it to the harsher one I have now. It could have been the bit but when I first got him I used that bit and it was fine so idk. I have noticed small cracks at one corner of his mouth so perhaps it's the bit, but it may be resolved now that I have changed it, we will have to see speaking that I don't return home from ny until Friday night. He has a sensitive back but I know for a fact that its not the saddle cuz that was his previous one prior from when I first got him, it was specially made to fit his back, so it's not that. And yes I agree it was stupid to gallop him around like that but when your POed u do stupid things lol. When I was bringing him down from the gallop he wouldnt listen so yes, I did do a one rein stop. And yes, he is very well trained in circles but his previous owner only did circles with him so I'm trying to expose his brain to other thing besides circles.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

finn113 said:


> Wow lots of questions. My instructor has seen me but just kinda stares at me lol and knows not to say anything when I'm ****ed. Ummm as far as bit goes I just changed it but I don't know which one it is but it's not twisted and its also a d-ring. The one I had before was a full cheek but again not sure what type, but its not harsh at all, that why I changed it to the harsher one I have now. It could have been the bit but when I first got him I used that bit and it was fine so idk. I have noticed small cracks at one corner of his mouth so perhaps it's the bit, but it may be resolved now that I have changed it, we will have to see speaking that I don't return home from ny until Friday night. He has a sensitive back but I know for a fact that its not the saddle cuz that was his previous one prior from when I first got him, it was specially made to fit his back, so it's not that. And yes I agree it was stupid to gallop him around like that but when your POed u do stupid things lol. When I was bringing him down from the gallop he wouldnt listen so yes, I did do a one rein stop. And yes, he is very well trained in circles but his previous owner only did circles with him so I'm trying to expose his brain to other thing besides circles.


Sounds like you need an instructor who can actually help you - one who just backs off because your angry isn't helping anything. It also sounds like you know exactly what you should do to help him calm down but chose something else? When exposing a horse who's only ever done small figures- to big figures, he'll need time to realize he doesn't need to race through it.

As for the bit! YES if there are cracks on his mouth his bit is seriously not right for him! What mouth piece is in his mouth? Full cheek and D ring are only slightly different, but the part that's in his mouth is what really effects him. Does it have a single joint? The single joint could be hitting his pallet if he has a low pallet. Was the previous one double jointed?
Honestly, if a horse is acting up- using a harsher bit is the worst option IMO. It just hurts them more.
If a horse won't respond to the bit your using he needs to be better trained, the only time to change bits is if they're not comfortable in a bit or if they're learning a new skill that would benefit from a more clear bit - not because they stopped listening to the first.
Give him his comfortable bit back -Go back to the basics, walk trot, don't even canter, work on small relaxed figures, gradually, slowly making them larger, adding short straight lines. Whenever he starts to get worked up go a little smaller on your figures. 
The next crucial thing for you to remember - the more worked up you are the more worked up your horse is. The angrier you are the angrier he's getting. He's saying "dammit MOM Can't you see ____ is wrong?!" and you're saying "dammit horse can't you see you need to do ____?!" But neither of you are listening. So take a deep breath, relax - do it for your horses sake. Soften your body - focus on happy thoughts, remember you're riding your horse and this is awesome! Not many people get to have a horse of their own they can ride all the time, you are lucky and this is fantastic and fun! Enjoy it! Horses are supposed to be enjoyable. Everytime you think of something negative fight it.
"I'm so happy I can ride my pony, he's doing a good relaxed walk" if your thought turns to "but he wont___" Quickly change that though to "but he is ____ ___ and ____" 

So fix your bit, relax the horse, relax yourself and take time to _enjoy your horse_!!


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> Sounds like you need an instructor who can actually help you - one who just backs off because your angry isn't helping anything. It also sounds like you know exactly what you should do to help him calm down but chose something else? When exposing a horse who's only ever done small figures- to big figures, he'll need time to realize he doesn't need to race through it.
> 
> As for the bit! YES if there are cracks on his mouth his bit is seriously not right for him! What mouth piece is in his mouth? Full cheek and D ring are only slightly different, but the part that's in his mouth is what really effects him. Does it have a single joint? The single joint could be hitting his pallet if he has a low pallet. Was the previous one double jointed?
> Honestly, if a horse is acting up- using a harsher bit is the worst option IMO. It just hurts them more.
> ...


Thank you very much, I don't know exactly what bit he was used to before I got him but I'm trying different ones to see which one works best for him. I can try to describe the bit he has. It is a d ring and instead of two pieces there are three, one on the, left, and then a wide oval in the middle that I think can spin and it has two holes punched on either side of the middle piece. I'm not sure if that helps but....


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

finn113 said:


> Thank you very much, I don't know exactly what bit he was used to before I got him but I'm trying different ones to see which one works best for him. I can try to describe the bit he has. It is a d ring and instead of two pieces there are three, one on the, left, and then a wide oval in the middle that I think can spin and it has two holes punched on either side of the middle piece. I'm not sure if that helps but....


Here is a pic of what my new bit looks like


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

That does help, that's a good bit. But the rolling part of it could be pinching. Can you find a bit like this?









Sorry that's huge

That's a french link, full cheek. Full cheeks are great because they hold the bit in the correct position in the horse's mouth, if you use keepers on them. They also provide a lot of lateral pressure. So when you pull the right rein, it pushes down on the right bar, and pulls the bit slightly through his mouth pushing his left side of his face over. D rings do this too, but not as strongly IMO.

It could also be pinching him where the mouth piece meets the rings, on the corners of his lips (where you say there are cracks). So maybe a D ring would work, but find one without anything pinchy on his cheeks.

When was his last visit to the dentist? Do you know for sure or are you going based on what a previous owner said? I think a dentist may be in order too.


As for the saddle. Just because it fit him once doesn't mean it fits him now - it won't hurt to check. And check his back too.

IME most horses don't gallop blindly off all hot and bothered just because they can, somethings bothering them. It may not be the tack, it could be you (not to be mean) but maybe he's picking up that you're in a mood and getting more bothered by it. Maybe you're body is more tense, which is no good. Maybe you get too heavy with your hands when he gets more forward? Rather than just pulling on his mouth or see-sawing the reins, just do some small figures to calm him down. 

This is going to take a lot of investigation and narrowing things down to find exactly what it is that's bothering him, but the bit, the saddle and your own seat and hands are the variable here. I wouldn't lunge him before riding, that'll only get him hotter. If you want to work him before getting on him try long lining him, at a nice easy walk.


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> That does help, that's a good bit. But the rolling part of it could be pinching. Can you find a bit like this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, I just attached a pic of what the bit looks like. So maybe that will help. I just signed him up to have his teeth checked so that will happen soon. There is a vet at ,y barn but I doubt she could examine his back, a chiropractor check is gonna be hard cuz my parent adopt understand horses and my mom would most likely not agree to it, and I don't think we have one anywhere near by, the best I could is have my vet try but idk


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I just saw the picture of your bit, is the exactly what it looks like? Where the mouth piece connects to the bit is it that tall? My only other thought is the bit could be too narrow. If his mouth is cracked the bit is pinching. This happens because either an ill-fitted bit, a pinchy bit, or too strong hands. 
I think a dentist is definitely in order, any vet should be able to say whether or not he has back pain, though they aren't specialized in chiropractic work. If he's still bad after getting his teeth floated I would have his back checked by your vet. If they say he's in pain and he needs a chiropractor I'm sure you could have the vet explain it to your parents, assuming it's affordable. But I would check his mouth first.

If that is _exactly_ the bit your using, that's a nice bit, most horses are comfy in it, so long as it fits. 
So work on your own relaxation skills, keeping your hands soft and your body gentle. Move with the horse, if he gets too worked up - small figures, deep breathes, slow it down.


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> I just saw the picture of your bit, is the exactly what it looks like? Where the mouth piece connects to the bit is it that tall? My only other thought is the bit could be too narrow. If his mouth is cracked the bit is pinching. This happens because either an ill-fitted bit, a pinchy bit, or too strong hands.
> I think a dentist is definitely in order, any vet should be able to say whether or not he has back pain, though they aren't specialized in chiropractic work. If he's still bad after getting his teeth floated I would have his back checked by your vet. If they say he's in pain and he needs a chiropractor I'm sure you could have the vet explain it to your parents, assuming it's affordable. But I would check his mouth first.
> 
> If that is _exactly_ the bit your using, that's a nice bit, most horses are comfy in it, so long as it fits.
> So work on your own relaxation skills, keeping your hands soft and your body gentle. Move with the horse, if he gets too worked up - small figures, deep breathes, slow it down.


No that it the bit I have changed my old one too. I don't know what bit I was currently using, but the picture is pretty similar to the one I have now. The picture is my NEW bit, not my old one.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Just to be sure you're not using a bit like this?









This is a Dr. Bristol, see how the middle piece is flat? It pushes a great deal of pressure onto the tongue - this could be seriously bothersome. Just making sure, I see too many people thinking Dr. Bristols are kind.



ETA: I just saw your newest post. The new bit is a good bit, it shouldn't be causing him pain, assuming it fits correctly. It sounds to me like the bit is too narrow. If his mouth has cracks it's because the bit is too narrow, too wide, pinching, or too strong hands holding it.
 If his mouth is cracked the bit is pinching. This happens because either an ill-fitted bit, a pinchy bit, or too strong hands.
​


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Agreed about checking the tack for fit, but the "green 8yo" says a lot. My gut tells me that he has holes in his training. I would spend the winter checking out EVERYTHING in this horse's training. On the ground you can watch his reaction to every command, and see where you need to work. Work him without and with your saddle. If you can, film it and watch the two of you working together. You are building a partnership, and you might not see where you both are working against each other without watching the training sessions.
Lists are VERY HELPFUL. List your objectives and knock them off when you achieve them. NOTHING is more satisfying than success!!
I used to buy/train a lot of broken horses and retrain them to several different disciplines. BC they worked about 7-10 lessons/week, the repetition (and my student's hugs and carrots, =b ) fixed many problems. Now, I have a much younger herd and no lesson program. I find that my younger horses learn very quickly. Both 6yo geldings were started as 2yo's, and ground training progresses quickly with them, too.
My 6yo QH is very stiff on the left side. I started flexing him, and his gives easily on the right, and even offers to keep his neck flexed. On the left it is much more difficult for him, but he has a good attitude. So...I am creative. I ask for less on the left, and praise him greatly, so he tries, even though there is probably some pain and stiffness there. I know with me, I can stretch to the right more easily to the left when I straddle the floor to stretch out, so I can be sympethetic.
Good luck!


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> I just saw the picture of your bit, is the exactly what it looks like? Where the mouth piece connects to the bit is it that tall? My only other thought is the bit could be too narrow. If his mouth is cracked the bit is pinching. This happens because either an ill-fitted bit, a pinchy bit, or too strong hands.
> I think a dentist is definitely in order, any vet should be able to say whether or not he has back pain, though they aren't specialized in chiropractic work. If he's still bad after getting his teeth floated I would have his back checked by your vet. If they say he's in pain and he needs a chiropractor I'm sure you could have the vet explain it to your parents, assuming it's affordable. But I would check his mouth first.
> 
> If that is _exactly_ the bit your using, that's a nice bit, most horses are comfy in it, so long as it fits.
> So work on your own relaxation skills, keeping your hands soft and your body gentle. Move with the horse, if he gets too worked up - small figures, deep breathes, slow it down.





PunksTank said:


> Just to be sure you're not using a bit like this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Actually that very well could be it I don't have it with me but that might be it. And the one that is giving him cracks was his first bit hopefully not his new, though I have not ridden in his new one yet.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Corporal all great suggestions!! Completely agree - I missed the 8 year old part o.o I thought my mare, when I got her, was the only unbroke 8 year old in the world xD


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Punk, you are setting yourself up to do battle with this horse and it will only get worse until he is totally out of control. If all you do in work in an arena he may have gotten sick of it.The next time you ride, do small circles at the walk, gradually opening the circle until, if he's relaxed allow him to walk in a straight line then begin tight circles going the other way. The idea is go keep him relaxed so lots of deep breaths to keep yourself relaxed. When he'll do the graduated circles at the walk ask him to whoa. If he wants to move bring him into the tight circles again for 3 rounds then ask again. By bending he's working harder and will come to welcome being allowed to stop. When he does, dismount where you are and put him away. Big reward. Do these same exercises at least three days in a row to reinforce what you want and the repetition makes it easier for him. Only when you are happy with how he's doing do you move onto the trot. Same circles. Use a regular snaffle. As you ask him to bend lightly squeeze and release the inside rein. Or tickle it with your pinky. Given a chance most horses will respond to this and become very light.
The moment you feel frustration or anger as your thinking has shut down and what you've experienced with your horse is his has done the same thing.


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> I just saw the picture of your bit, is the exactly what it looks like? Where the mouth piece connects to the bit is it that tall? My only other thought is the bit could be too narrow. If his mouth is cracked the bit is pinching. This happens because either an ill-fitted bit, a pinchy bit, or too strong hands.
> I think a dentist is definitely in order, any vet should be able to say whether or not he has back pain, though they aren't specialized in chiropractic work. If he's still bad after getting his teeth floated I would have his back checked by your vet. If they say he's in pain and he needs a chiropractor I'm sure you could have the vet explain it to your parents, assuming it's affordable. But I would check his mouth first.
> 
> If that is _exactly_ the bit your using, that's a nice bit, most horses are comfy in it, so long as it fits.
> So work on your own relaxation skills, keeping your hands soft and your body gentle. Move with the horse, if he gets too worked up - small figures, deep breathes, slow it down.





Corporal said:


> Agreed about checking the tack for fit, but the "green 8yo" says a lot. My gut tells me that he has holes in his training. I would spend the winter checking out EVERYTHING in this horse's training. On the ground you can watch his reaction to every command, and see where you need to work. Work him without and with your saddle. If you can, film it and watch the two of you working together. You are building a partnership, and you might not see where you both are working against each other without watching the training sessions.
> Lists are VERY HELPFUL. List your objectives and knock them off when you achieve them. NOTHING is more satisfying than success!!
> I used to buy/train a lot of broken horses and retrain them to several different disciplines. BC they worked about 7-10 lessons/week, the repetition (and my student's hugs and carrots, =b ) fixed many problems. Now, I have a much younger herd and no lesson program. I find that my younger horses learn very quickly. Both 6yo geldings were started as 2yo's, and ground training progresses quickly with them, too.
> My 6yo QH is very stiff on the left side. I started flexing him, and his gives easily on the right, and even offers to keep his neck flexed. On the left it is much more difficult for him, but he has a good attitude. So...I am creative. I ask for less on the left, and praise him greatly, so he tries, even though there is probably some pain and stiffness there. I know with me, I can stretch to the right more easily to the left when I straddle the floor to stretch out, so I can be sympethetic.
> Good luck!


Thank you very much. I suppose I could be expecting too much from him and then getting angry


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> Punk, you are setting yourself up to do battle with this horse and it will only get worse until he is totally out of control. If all you do in work in an arena he may have gotten sick of it.The next time you ride, do small circles at the walk, gradually opening the circle until, if he's relaxed allow him to walk in a straight line then begin tight circles going the other way. The idea is go keep him relaxed so lots of deep breaths to keep yourself relaxed. When he'll do the graduated circles at the walk ask him to whoa. If he wants to move bring him into the tight circles again for 3 rounds then ask again. By bending he's working harder and will come to welcome being allowed to stop. When he does, dismount where you are and put him away. Big reward. Do these same exercises at least three days in a row to reinforce what you want and the repetition makes it easier for him. Only when you are happy with how he's doing do you move onto the trot. Same circles. Use a regular snaffle. As you ask him to bend lightly squeeze and release the inside rein. Or tickle it with your pinky. Given a chance most horses will respond to this and become very light.
> The moment you feel frustration or anger as your thinking has shut down and what you've experienced with your horse is his has done the same thing.


Don't you mean Finn, and not Punk lol. I will have to try this


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

finn113 said:


> Actually that very well could be it I don't have it with me but that might be it. And the one that is giving him cracks was his first bit hopefully not his new, though I have not ridden in his new one yet.



Put the new bit on his bridle, give his mouth some time to heel. Practice in the ring with just his halter, from the ground, giving to pressure. 
Really you should practice all the ground work techniques, but particularly ones related to his head/face.
So stand with clip on reins attached to his halter, no tack on him besides that. The reins over his head, Hold one rein with just a tiny bit of pressure, so you can just feel his nose, and rest your hand on his wither with that much pressure. If he knows what to do he'll turn his head into the pull. But he may not. If he doesn't he may try to pull away, he may try to walk away, he may toss his head, just hold even, gentle pressure on that one rein and wait. Move with him so he's not getting away from it, so it's the same amount of pressure, just wait. At some point he'll try turning his head toward the pull, even if it's just an inch at first give it to him! Drop the rein, scratch his neck and tell him he's the most wonderful, brilliant horse in the world! Then do this again and again on both sides of his body and turning his head toward and away from you until he's bringing his nose to where a stirrup would be, with only the gentlest pressure on the rein. Then practice the same skill but with both reins, gentlest pressure, to get him to back up from the reins. Then practice getting him to put his head down, nose to the ground, with pressure on his poll (puling straight down with a lead rope).
People often over look the giving to poll pressure skill, because it's not vital to riding. But with a forward horse it IS vital to learn. When they're head is down they are relaxed, when it's up they're looking for danger. So getting him to be able to put his head down with gentle pressure can physically shift him out of flight mode.

I'd also work on practicing his ground yielding skills - yielding his hind end, front end, backing up and side stepping. Practice all these skills until he's really focused and listening to you.


This will give you good stuff to do while you wait a little while for his poor mouth to heal.
Then practice the same giving to the rein pressures you did with the halter with his new bit. Make sure it's a french link not a Dr. Bristol. Once he's turning his head very softly to his new bit on the ground practice at the halter from his back. Practice again at the walk. Use only the tiniest amount of pressure you can, only increase if he's ingnoring it (not doing anything) if he's trying to figure out what to do (tossing his head, pulling the wrong direction, ducking his head, anything) just hold the same gentle pressure until he tries the correct direction. 


Good luck!


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> Punk, you are setting yourself up to do battle with this horse and it will only get worse until he is totally out of control. If all you do in work in an arena he may have gotten sick of it.The next time you ride, do small circles at the walk, gradually opening the circle until, if he's relaxed allow him to walk in a straight line then begin tight circles going the other way. The idea is go keep him relaxed so lots of deep breaths to keep yourself relaxed. When he'll do the graduated circles at the walk ask him to whoa. If he wants to move bring him into the tight circles again for 3 rounds then ask again. By bending he's working harder and will come to welcome being allowed to stop. When he does, dismount where you are and put him away. Big reward. Do these same exercises at least three days in a row to reinforce what you want and the repetition makes it easier for him. Only when you are happy with how he's doing do you move onto the trot. Same circles. Use a regular snaffle. As you ask him to bend lightly squeeze and release the inside rein. Or tickle it with your pinky. Given a chance most horses will respond to this and become very light.
> The moment you feel frustration or anger as your thinking has shut down and what you've experienced with your horse is his has done the same thing.



Maybe I wasn't clear, that's exactly what I meant! xD Only use circles to bring him back to calm. If straight lines get him going, rather than see-sawing his mouth or pulling hard, or using a stronger bit, just bring him around to slow him down, do some small figures then gradually straighten him out again while he's relaxed.
Completely agree about keeping the rider soft and relaxed - if they aren't there's no chance the horse will be xD

Personally arena exercises bore the guacamole out of me and my horses - but I wouldn't trust this horse to do anything else yet. So he may be bored but he needs to be trustworthy before attempting something else.


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> Put the new bit on his bridle, give his mouth some time to heel. Practice in the ring with just his halter, from the ground, giving to pressure.
> Really you should practice all the ground work techniques, but particularly ones related to his head/face.
> So stand with clip on reins attached to his halter, no tack on him besides that. The reins over his head, Hold one rein with just a tiny bit of pressure, so you can just feel his nose, and rest your hand on his wither with that much pressure. If he knows what to do he'll turn his head into the pull. But he may not. If he doesn't he may try to pull away, he may try to walk away, he may toss his head, just hold even, gentle pressure on that one rein and wait. Move with him so he's not getting away from it, so it's the same amount of pressure, just wait. At some point he'll try turning his head toward the pull, even if it's just an inch at first give it to him! Drop the rein, scratch his neck and tell him he's the most wonderful, brilliant horse in the world! Then do this again and again on both sides of his body and turning his head toward and away from you until he's bringing his nose to where a stirrup would be, with only the gentlest pressure on the rein. Then practice the same skill but with both reins, gentlest pressure, to get him to back up from the reins. Then practice getting him to put his head down, nose to the ground, with pressure on his poll (puling straight down with a lead rope).
> People often over look the giving to poll pressure skill, because it's not vital to riding. But with a forward horse it IS vital to learn. When they're head is down they are relaxed, when it's up they're looking for danger. So getting him to be able to put his head down with gentle pressure can physically shift him out of flight mode.
> ...


Thank you so much, you have been much help to me


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> Maybe I wasn't clear, that's exactly what I meant! xD Only use circles to bring him back to calm. If straight lines get him going, rather than see-sawing his mouth or pulling hard, or using a stronger bit, just bring him around to slow him down, do some small figures then gradually straighten him out again while he's relaxed.
> Completely agree about keeping the rider soft and relaxed - if they aren't there's no chance the horse will be xD
> 
> Personally arena exercises bore the guacamole out of me and my horses - but I wouldn't trust this horse to do anything else yet. So he may be bored but he needs to be trustworthy before attempting something else.


But when I do put him in a circle to slow him down he doesn't he either gets faster or goes into a canter


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

No problem Finn!! Working with green horses is tough ^^ You've been very receptive and willing to learn - this makes it all the easier to want to help xD

I can't promise all I say will work or fix everything, but it won't hurt!
So get his teeth done, make sure of the bit, practice all his yielding exercises in halter and when his mouth is feeling better with the new bit. When you get to riding, be as gentle as possible, but as firm as needed. Keep yourself relaxed and quiet - think positive. Work him straight, when he gets worked up make small figures and gradually open them up keeping him relaxed.

Most horses are SO relieved when they realize they don't _need_ to rush!


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

finn113 said:


> But when I do put him in a circle to slow him down he doesn't he either gets faster or goes into a canter


This is interesting. Are you sure? It's very hard for a horse to canter a tight circle. Most horses break their canter and go into a trot when brought on a circle. I've never seen this before So I'm gonna leave that to someone who has.

But it could be his running through pain if his mouth/bit is hurting him. When you pull him in a circle it could be hurting and causing him to just say 'screw this' and bomb off. If that's not it I'll leave it to someone else, that's my only idea. 

I still think you should stick with the plan I just posted and I doubt this problem will reoccur if you keep things slow.

It could be that when he's forward and you feel the need to pull him in a circle, you could be tense causing him to launch. There are many variables to consider.


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> This is interesting. Are you sure? It's very hard for a horse to canter a tight circle. Most horses break their canter and go into a trot when brought on a circle. I've never seen this before So I'm gonna leave that to someone who has.
> 
> But it could be his running through pain if his mouth/bit is hurting him. When you pull him in a circle it could be hurting and causing him to just say 'screw this' and bomb off. If that's not it I'll leave it to someone else, that's my only idea.
> 
> ...


 well how tight of a circle do you mean, because I have been doing 20-meter circles is that not tight enough.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

A 20 meter circle in my ring is almost half the ring - yes that's too large to use to slow a horse. It's easiest for a horse to pick up the canter coming off a bend, so if your tense while circling him on a large circle he could easily think you're wanting that. Soften your body and start with a small circle, making it a little larger each time.

This is a 20 meter circle:










you probably want to start with a 10 meter circle (or smaller) and work your way up once he's relaxed:










Once he's riding relaxed you could use serpentine's to help keep him relaxed, so each time he starts to think about getting up again you'll be turning again:










But again- do everything else we discussed first.


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

At Punkstank
Ok but our ring is like 4 of those rings it's huge, but I get what your saying. So instead of just trotting right into a circle and getting tense, maybe I should walk in the circle and let him know what we are doing and then pick up a trot while gradually enlarging the circle? And also do you think raising my stirrups would help me or should I just keep them where they are? Oh and my instructor recommended rubber reins to me, would those be beneficial at all?


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Also no, i mean to say you need to make the corcle small enough to force him to slow his pace, yes walking him would slow him down, but it would effectively reward him for trotting too fast. He needs to get the point to trot slower. Yes you need to relax your body.
If your instructor is recommending rubber(i assume you mean ones with a little stretch?) reins i think your hands are too strong. Rather than buying a tool that compensates for your hard hands i think you should work on having gentler hands.
Lets put it like this. We'll put rein pressure on a scale of 1-10 1 being just under no contact, 10 being hauling on his mouth, 2 being gentle contact. If you ride with your reins at 2 all the time, when you need to turn or slow speed you can go up to 3 or 4 to control the horse. If the horse is wild you still have 5-10 to get him under control.
It's sounding to me like your riding at a 5 or 6 hard contact, meaning when its time to get honest control you're needing to go to a full hard core 10 to get a response.

This takes training for you and your horse to fix. The exercise i already explained with the halter and bridle will teach your horse to give to pressures of 2-4s but you need to ride within those limits too. Getting hom softer in the bridle is only half the battle you have to ride with soft giving hands. 

Keep your stirrups just below your ankle bone for flat work, hikinh your legs up gives you a taller post causing a bigger trot. Having your legs hiked up tenses your body. Stretch your legs deep beyond your stirrups. The point is to ride soft and gently, not tense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> Also no, i mean to say you need to make the corcle small enough to force him to slow his pace, yes walking him would slow him down, but it would effectively reward him for trotting too fast. He needs to get the point to trot slower. Yes you need to relax your body.
> If your instructor is recommending rubber(i assume you mean ones with a little stretch?) reins i think your hands are too strong. Rather than buying a tool that compensates for your hard hands i think you should work on having gentler hands.
> Lets put it like this. We'll put rein pressure on a scale of 1-10 1 being just under no contact, 10 being hauling on his mouth, 2 being gentle contact. If you ride with your reins at 2 all the time, when you need to turn or slow speed you can go up to 3 or 4 to control the horse. If the horse is wild you still have 5-10 to get him under control.
> It's sounding to me like your riding at a 5 or 6 hard contact, meaning when its time to get honest control you're needing to go to a full hard core 10 to get a response.
> ...


She means rubber reins that give you more grip, because he is even strong for her, she handles it correctly but she thinks that I'm not strong enough to slow him down because I'm really not, everyone has trouble with his forward ness so wants me to get rubber reins to ensure more grip, thus making it easier to slow him down I guess. He is very hard to control that's why I have strong hands


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

If he's that strong this doesnt mean he needs a stronger hand. Two wrongs don't make a right. Grippy reins wont hurt but what will fix the problem is TRAINING him better. He is not giving to the bit and your needing to pull harder and harder- he needs better training. 

Get his teeth fixed give him some time with bitless groundwork. Then work on giving to the bit on the ground, then mounted, the relaxed walking, the work on relaxed trotting. If he doesn't slow his gait with a gentle check of the reins he needs to go back a step and work on it until it's more perfect. I'm seeing a great deal of gaps in this horses training. You need to go back and fill them. This will take weeks. Rushing this process will only make it worse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Tight circles are for controlling a horse who's being bull headed and just wants to go ignoring cues he knows. But its sounding more and more to me that he's just not sure what to do so people are getting stronger with him which is just making him less and less sensitive. Until eventually he just has enough and runs through it all.
If he was good when you got him but isn't now its either pain or he hasn't been given clear enough cues and strong enough releases. The release is what tells the horse they did the right thing and of they don't get it they're gonna keep trying other things until they just give up by euther shutting down or exploding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

I have no idea what to do for him then. If my instructor can't help him, how am I supposed too? If I don't hold him back your right he explodes, how can I work on giving him his head or releasing if he just takes off each time I release the reins. He is very heavy on the bit so if I don't hold the bit, if I give release he gets quicker to catch up to the bit. This is very frustrating.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

_Rellllaaaaxxx_....take a deep breath! He is very strong on the bit because he's green and has holes in his training. 
But not to fear YOU can fix this.


PunksTank said:


> Put the new bit on his bridle, give his mouth some time to heel. Practice in the ring with just his halter, from the ground, giving to pressure.
> Really you should practice all the ground work techniques, but particularly ones related to his head/face.
> So stand with clip on reins attached to his halter, no tack on him besides that. The reins over his head, Hold one rein with just a tiny bit of pressure, so you can just feel his nose, and rest your hand on his wither with that much pressure. If he knows what to do he'll turn his head into the pull. But he may not. If he doesn't he may try to pull away, he may try to walk away, he may toss his head, just hold even, gentle pressure on that one rein and wait. Move with him so he's not getting away from it, so it's the same amount of pressure, just wait. At some point he'll try turning his head toward the pull, even if it's just an inch at first give it to him! Drop the rein, scratch his neck and tell him he's the most wonderful, brilliant horse in the world! Then do this again and again on both sides of his body and turning his head toward and away from you until he's bringing his nose to where a stirrup would be, with only the gentlest pressure on the rein. Then practice the same skill but with both reins, gentlest pressure, to get him to back up from the reins. Then practice getting him to put his head down, nose to the ground, with pressure on his poll (puling straight down with a lead rope).
> People often over look the giving to poll pressure skill, because it's not vital to riding. But with a forward horse it IS vital to learn. When they're head is down they are relaxed, when it's up they're looking for danger. So getting him to be able to put his head down with gentle pressure can physically shift him out of flight mode.
> ...



Doing these exercises will teach him to have a soft mouth. He'll learn he doesn't need to run to keep the bit at 5 on our scale of rein pressure, he can be comfortable at 2 and give to 3s and 4s. He needs to learn this and the thing I just quoted is exactly how you teach this.
Start it with the halter, then the bridle, then mounted stationary with the bridle, then walking, then trotting. This will take WEEKS _do not rush this!!!_ Rushing will ruin all your work. Be patient. Work on the halter skills and yielding his body skills for the first 3-4 days, then add the bridle and the body skills in for the next 3-4 days, then start with unmounted and do a few minute of stationary giving to the bit for 2 days, then work on the walk, doing millions of relaxed walking figures for about a week. Then add in trots for maybe 5-10 strides at a time do one small figure at a relaxed trot, then go back to walk. For about a week gradually adding more RELAXED trotting. This is your schedule and your check list, so long as you only use gentle pressure and your release of pressure is well timed your horse will learn to have a very soft mouth.

You can do this, don't get frustrated. Whenever you get overwhelmed stop what your doing - take a deep breath - think about how much you love your horse despite his imperfections and go back to it.


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> _Rellllaaaaxxx_....take a deep breath! He is very strong on the bit because he's green and has holes in his training.
> But not to fear YOU can fix this.
> 
> 
> ...


When I add in the relax trotting what do I do if he gets fast again, start over. And what if he rushes through it cuz he gets bored with all of the serpentines. And what do you mean by "body skills"? And when you say to do a gentle walk do you mean a loose rein walk or do I still hold contact at the bit?


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

If he gets rushed at the trot you went through all the first steps too fast. If you do everything right and theres no other pain issue he wont be rushed at the trot. Please also dont make him do any of the same skill/figure for too long. Use the serpentines and circles for when he's rudely ignoring you, not when he's trying. Make the ring interesting do lots of different things all the time. When i say a gentle walk i mean holding contact at 1 or 2 of little to no contact, using 2-3 to mean you want something like turning or slowing down.

Please also when you get back to riding don forget to use your whole body to ride him not just your reins. Start with your eyes, shoulders, waist, hips, legs thennn hands. 

Please dont rush this process he needs his holes filled correctly in order to be ridden more softly. If you can't ride him using a 1-3 rein contact at allll times at the walk if you need to go up to 4 do not trot until thats fixed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> If he gets rushed at the trot you went through all the first steps too fast. If you do everything right and theres no other pain issue he wont be rushed at the trot. Please also dont make him do any of the same skill/figure for too long. Use the serpentines and circles for when he's rudely ignoring you, not when he's trying. Make the ring interesting do lots of different things all the time. When i say a gentle walk i mean holding contact at 1 or 2 of little to no contact, using 2-3 to mean you want something like turning or slowing down.
> 
> Please also when you get back to riding don forget to use your whole body to ride him not just your reins. Start with your eyes, shoulders, waist, hips, legs thennn hands.
> 
> ...


Ok I'm hoping this works, if I have any other questions I will be sure to ask thanx


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## TaraBearaIsBack (Oct 12, 2012)

I would say that you have to remember that everyone has a bad ride or two every once in a while. Just stay quiet with him and control your anger because if you lash out at him too often when he frustrates you things could go really bad. We had a horse that my cousin rode and she could't for the life of her control her anger and eventually the horse reared up over on top of her and started to go crazy and end of the story the sweet mare had to be put down. It doesn't sound like you have been too harsh on him but I just wanted to warn you about that! 
What I would do is definitely lunge him for at least a half hour before riding him and then take things slowly and honestly I would agree that you need a different trainer if they shut up when you get angry because that is one of the most important times to have a trainer so you know what to do and you don't get out of hand.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I completely agree with Tara except for lunging. Lunging is a good way to get a horse very worked up and excited. Lunging is a good way to stress horses joints. It's a good way to teach them to blindly run in circles. 
Lunging can be useful under the right circumstances - lunging a horse to make him tired before a ride is just non-sense and does not work.

This horse doesn't need to be tired he needs to be trained. He needs to learn to give to the bit, right now it sounds like it's a battle over who's stronger - which I hate to say humans aren't going to win without a violent bit. He needs to learn the cues, not be forced. Steering a horse isn't about pulling their head to the left or right, it's about cueing a left or right turn - with your whole body.

If anyone else has any other suggestions feel free, but I stand by teaching this horse to give to soft rein pressure before doing anything else.


Oh and I forgot to answer your question "what's body work" I meant yielding different parts of his body - yielding his hind end, front end, backing up, side stepping. All of these things reassert you as dominant and reinforces to him how to give to gentle pressure.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

My favorite saying is

The TENSER the horse gets, the *SOFTER* you ride.

It sounds like the horse gets tense, you get tense which makes the horse get MORE tense and so on. You need to break that cycle by willing yourself to keep your temper, staying patient and go even softer to give the horse a chance to de-escalate.

Do you have any videos of your rides? Can you get some? I would be happy to critique them in private if you would PM them to me.


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## TaraBearaIsBack (Oct 12, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> I completely agree with Tara except for lunging. Lunging is a good way to get a horse very worked up and excited. Lunging is a good way to stress horses joints. It's a good way to teach them to blindly run in circles.
> Lunging can be useful under the right circumstances - lunging a horse to make him tired before a ride is just non-sense and does not work.
> 
> This horse doesn't need to be tired he needs to be trained. He needs to learn to give to the bit, right now it sounds like it's a battle over who's stronger - which I hate to say humans aren't going to win without a violent bit. He needs to learn the cues, not be forced. Steering a horse isn't about pulling their head to the left or right, it's about cueing a left or right turn - with your whole body.
> ...


Haha well it seems we have had a completely different experience with lunging.. From my experiences the best way to train a horse is when he is tired! Especially if he is naughty because he needs to learn that if he will just give in things will be a lot easier-that strategy is proven through all of my horses. Only about 2 of my 4 riding horses is it safe to get on without lunging them. 
If I didn't lunge my gelding before riding I might be dead or in the hospital! The only time I have seen lunging not work is with horses like Arabians (which I don't ride) because to them yes lunging them gets them more high strung and the more you ride them the more energy they seem to get!

It just depends on your preference, experience and training I suppose!


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

TaraBearaIsBack said:


> I would say that you have to remember that everyone has a bad ride or two every once in a while. Just stay quiet with him and control your anger because if you lash out at him too often when he frustrates you things could go really bad. We had a horse that my cousin rode and she could't for the life of her control her anger and eventually the horse reared up over on top of her and started to go crazy and end of the story the sweet mare had to be put down. It doesn't sound like you have been too harsh on him but I just wanted to warn you about that!
> What I would do is definitely lunge him for at least a half hour before riding him and then take things slowly and honestly I would agree that you need a different trainer if they shut up when you get angry because that is one of the most important times to have a trainer so you know what to do and you don't get out of hand.


There are pros and cons to my trainer. She does help a lot and calms me down and is absolutely wonderfully DURING A LESSON, if I'm just riding by myself she won't say a thing. Bottom line, she has to be paid to help me. Thanx for the advice


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> I completely agree with Tara except for lunging. Lunging is a good way to get a horse very worked up and excited. Lunging is a good way to stress horses joints. It's a good way to teach them to blindly run in circles.
> Lunging can be useful under the right circumstances - lunging a horse to make him tired before a ride is just non-sense and does not work.
> 
> This horse doesn't need to be tired he needs to be trained. He needs to learn to give to the bit, right now it sounds like it's a battle over who's stronger - which I hate to say humans aren't going to win without a violent bit. He needs to learn the cues, not be forced. Steering a horse isn't about pulling their head to the left or right, it's about cueing a left or right turn - with your whole body.
> ...


Thank you very much but I have another question. Since I'm going to do your recommended exercises, at the point where I'm allowed to use the bit, how do I know if he likes the bit, and if he doesn't how do I know its the bit and not me. Also if he doesn't like the bit and I have to get it changed do I have to start from the beginning again? Thanx!


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Allison Finch said:


> My favorite saying is
> 
> The TENSER the horse gets, the *SOFTER* you ride.
> 
> ...


Not any with his recent behavior. I have some good ones but those are on my computer and I'm using my I pad so I don't have my computer. Thanx!


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

TaraBearaIsBack said:


> Haha well it seems we have had a completely different experience with lunging.. From my experiences the best way to train a horse is when he is tired! Especially if he is naughty because he needs to learn that if he will just give in things will be a lot easier-that strategy is proven through all of my horses. Only about 2 of my 4 riding horses is it safe to get on without lunging them.
> If I didn't lunge my gelding before riding I might be dead or in the hospital! The only time I have seen lunging not work is with horses like Arabians (which I don't ride) because to them yes lunging them gets them more high strung and the more you ride them the more energy they seem to get!
> 
> It just depends on your preference, experience and training I suppose!



I ride a wide variety of horses and the only ones who benefit from a nice walk/jog lunging session are the old stiff ones who need to warm up before a lesson. Running a horse into exhaustion before a ride is just a band-aid IMO. If you can't ride them without them having been worked for half an hour first there are more serious issues that need to be worked out.

There have been horses I haven't felt comfortable just jumping right on, because they're pumped up and high strung, usually after just running around their field. I would typically long line the horse around the ring, doing figures at a walk and trot, over groundpoles and other obstacles. I find this to be better than lunging because rather than just building up their strength and stamina by making them 'run it out' it teaches them to focus, to listen, and to think. It gets them in the mood for work by doing thinking exercises, rather than just blindly running in circles.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

I'd say just do a lot of the recommended exercises. For awhile maybe I'd mostly walk maybe a little trot bit if he gets excited go back down to a walk. If he stays consistently calm at a walk is give him lots of praise then a short break. Even if at first he is just chilled out for a few steps its an improvement. Once he is walking normally with out a lot of anxiety or fast paced then I'd move up to short trot sessions followed by lots of walking after trotting. You need to slow his mentality down show him he can be relaxed while you ride. I think lots of walking will calm your demeanor as well. When your getting upset your making your horse upset. So take some time go back to the beginning. Spend some days just taking him out brushing him down maybe lead him around and talk to him a bit then put him up. I'd play with some softer bits but it may not be the bit how heavy handed are you on his mouth? If you have light hands then your bit is hurting your horse. I think you guys just need to go to the basics and have some chill time. But for now no cantering.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> I'd say just do a lot of the recommended exercises. For awhile maybe I'd mostly walk maybe a little trot bit if he gets excited go back down to a walk. If he stays consistently calm at a walk is give him lots of praise then a short break. Even if at first he is just chilled out for a few steps its an improvement. Once he is walking normally with out a lot of anxiety or fast paced then I'd move up to short trot sessions followed by lots of walking after trotting. You need to slow his mentality down show him he can be relaxed while you ride. I think lots of walking will calm your demeanor as well. When your getting upset your making your horse upset. So take some time go back to the beginning. Spend some days just taking him out brushing him down maybe lead him around and talk to him a bit then put him up. I'd play with some softer bits but it may not be the bit how heavy handed are you on his mouth? If you have light hands then your bit is hurting your horse. I think you guys just need to go to the basics and have some chill time. But for now no cantering.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanx I have a lot to try when I get home


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## TaraBearaIsBack (Oct 12, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> I ride a wide variety of horses and the only ones who benefit from a nice walk/jog lunging session are the old stiff ones who need to warm up before a lesson. Running a horse into exhaustion before a ride is just a band-aid IMO. If you can't ride them without them having been worked for half an hour first there are more serious issues that need to be worked out.
> 
> There have been horses I haven't felt comfortable just jumping right on, because they're pumped up and high strung, usually after just running around their field. I would typically long line the horse around the ring, doing figures at a walk and trot, over groundpoles and other obstacles. I find this to be better than lunging because rather than just building up their strength and stamina by making them 'run it out' it teaches them to focus, to listen, and to think. It gets them in the mood for work by doing thinking exercises, rather than just blindly running in circles.


Well I definitely don't ever run a horse into exhaustion, but I warm them up and get the buck and excitement out of them through lunging because otherwise I would end up having to ride through that when all they needed was a little bit of preparation and running to get the spunk out of them. I also see that it helps to condition them and think it does get them pretty focused and they know they are going to be ridden so they settle down before we ride. I also often will put out some poles for them to go over while lunging and I lunge them in different places as well. Usually my horses do come in from a field to go ride and they have a lot of energy to spare. They also have a lot of racehorse breeding so they have excess stamina as well. I've also found that lunging is very helpful also to get a horse's body ready for a show and get rid of the big belly look. My horses all have very good minds and are smart and they benefit from lunging. 

I mean if I were to run a few laps I would quiet down and be more focused than if I had just gone out with all of my energy and I might even ignore some directions I may have or skips some steps or just run for fun. For me Lunging is a logical and practical way to warm up a horse.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

finn113 said:


> Thank you very much but I have another question. Since I'm going to do your recommended exercises, at the point where I'm allowed to use the bit, how do I know if he likes the bit, and if he doesn't how do I know its the bit and not me. Also if he doesn't like the bit and I have to get it changed do I have to start from the beginning again? Thanx!



Allison had some good advice, riding tense+tense=explosions.

As for your question. The bit we were looking at is pretty darn gentle. This exercise is to teach him to give to the bit. Any direct reining bit will have the same results (not a curb). I prefer to always start this with the kindest bit I can find, french links are my favorite, but some horses I've met prefer mullen mouth snaffles with no breaks at all. I think your horse will do just fine in a french link.
The point of this exercise is to teach him that a 3 on our pressure scale means he needs to respond right away. 
You're essentially teaching him that whenever you apply a little pressure (beyond contact) to the rein it means turn, or if both reins it means back up or slow down.

Your timing does need to be pretty perfect. Hold the reins over his head, rest your hand on the horse's withers, apply a gentle amount of pressure to one rein and wait. If he's not doing anything at all slowly increase the pressure. If he starts tossing his head or pulling away just hold the pressure where it is and WAIT. The moment he turns his head, even an inch in the direction of the rein you're applying pressure to relieve all pressure and pet him and tell him how wonderful he is.
repeat this until he's got the point turning in both directions. I would do this in several 5-10 minute sessions with an hour or so break between, so you're not hurting his mouth and you give him time to think about what he learned (yes they do think about what they're learning). You can work on yielding his body then go back to giving to the bit.

This exercise is the simplest of starts for horses to learn how to give to the bit, you can do this - it isn't hard. You're like a big ball of anxiety worried over every detail. The gentler pressure you apply, the gentler pressure he'll learn to listen to at this stage. Always start with the lowest amount of pressure and gradually increase until he listens. Eventually just the weight of you picking up their rein will turn his head. My mare will feel me pick up her rein and will have her nose to her side before pressure is applied. 

YOU CAN DO THIS. Stop doubting yourself and your horse - these are the bare bones basics of what a horse needs to know to be ridden - you and he can learn this.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

finn113 said:


> Well at first he was fine. He has always been fast cuz he is a green 8 year old, but usually I just slow my posting, seesaw the reins, or do checks with the reins and he will come back to me. The last two rides he hasn't listened to any of that though.


 
I have not read all the responses, so sorry if I duplicate something.

See sawing the reins can be done once or twice to get the horse's attention, but used as a regular means of trying to slow him down will end up building a hardness in him, where rein/bit pressure becomes meaningless, just something to be ignored. So, don't do it hardely at all.

Here's what I can imagine my trainer doing:

Starts off, walking to check out the horse's mental state, doing lots of circles, serpentines , starts and stops. 
oh, finds out horse is heavy ont he bit and does not know how to stop properly. Ok, time to teach the horse to stop and to respect the bit. No trotting today.

Walk on . ask for halt with seat, then hands a milisecond later. horse ignors the firts signals, so rider 's hands become CONCRETE> the rider picks the spot on the ground where the command "halt!" was given with the hands , and if the horse ignores this, she mentally anchors her elbows down to that spot on the ground, firms up her core and her hands and stops her whole body, anchored to that spot on the ground. 

Horse either stops but is leaning for all he's worth on the bit, or keeps going. rider raises one hand asking for horse to soften off the bit. 
horse braces harder, rider raises hand and starts to talk to the horse's hip. If hores will not unlock his mouth, you try to unlock his head, if he won't unlock his head, then you raise the rein (almost straight up, do nothing with the outer rein) and look for that horse to disengage him hindquarters. he will step under himself. To do this, he will need to bend at the neck and soften. The good trainer knows how to get the horse to be really soft this way, but for you , who is new to this, just at least get horse to step that leg under himself , which is part of disengagening the hindquarters. Release the rein to give big reward and pat horse.

now, you have broken the horse out of their brace. now , take up the rein and ask for a back up, with one rein more active than the other such that you are asking for a backup with a soft flexion of the jaw on oneside. 

Look for horse to soften or lift himself off that bit. any movement of that type, you reward with a loose rein, a pat and a pause, then return to asking for inside softness on bit and a backup step. 

Once you get that, ask for horse to walk off again. test him and see if he'll stop better when ask. Insist that he come off the bit (use offset pressure, meaning one rein tighter than the other ) and reward when he does.

every time you match his pull exactly with two hands, you are giving him something firm to push against. And you are staying in the "stalemate" situation. Dont do that!
You must give him uneven pressure and an ounce more than he puts on to cause him to GIVE TO YOU. Once he starts giving to that amount of pressure, you start offering him LESS pressure. He learns "if I give to pressure, she offers me less. I like that"

You build in softness. but, to be soft, you may have to get firm first. But NOT two handed , even , braced firm. Use the bend to your advantage, and go to break out the hind end if the horse thinks that all he can do is lean on the rein. YOu break him out of that with hind end step over, and try again.

And, it can look ugly before it looks prettty. But you are training him to respect the rein. YOU must be very sure that when you apply rein, you get what you ask for every time, and you go back down into his hind feet if necessary.

Does this make sense to you? I know it must be very strange and I am not good at explaining. but this is different than trying to ride him out of it.


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> Allison had some good advice, riding tense+tense=explosions.
> 
> As for your question. The bit we were looking at is pretty darn gentle. This exercise is to teach him to give to the bit. Any direct reining bit will have the same results (not a curb). I prefer to always start this with the kindest bit I can find, french links are my favorite, but some horses I've met prefer mullen mouth snaffles with no breaks at all. I think your horse will do just fine in a french link.
> The point of this exercise is to teach him that a 3 on our pressure scale means he needs to respond right away.
> ...


Ok thanx so much!


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Love Tiny's post too - I think it's an option.

The only thing I want to add is PLEASE get the dentist before you do any of this. That is first and foremost important.
Personally I'd do what I suggested with reteaching him to give to the bit - if after alot of working he's still a jerk about it - I'd go with Tiny's option. I like to give the horse the benefit of the doubt and think maybe he just doesn't know or has been taught to be hard mouthed, not just being rude.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

finn113 said:


> Thanx I have a lot to try when I get home


I'll share my personal experience i hope or will help you. I used to have a mustang who's previous owners did nothing but run him. He didn't know what it was to just walk around or trot around all he knew was canter and run. And there was absolutely no tiring this horse out. He would run all day if you let him. So we went back to the very beginning I swear we didn't do anything but walk for a month. I'd take him out on a trail and at first I could maybe get him to calm walk a few steps. When he would I'd give him lots of love and a short break. Then back to walking. When I finally got him walking normally then we started short trot sessions. When he trotted normally he would get praise and we would go back to walking. So I'd repeat that walk trot walk trot walk. Always go towards home at a walk. If when your going home and he wants to trot turn him away take him back farther then got back to a walk. It may take you quite a while to get home when you first do this but eventually he will figure out I can't go home unless I walk. After the walk and trot were good then I worked up into the canter. Then our routine became walk trot walk canter (short) walk and so on. Basically I'd randomly mix it up from there just after your gift from a fast pace for back to the walk. You may not need to take as long as I had to with this horse he needed lots of calming they had him so wound up poor guy. Anyways after a summer of doing that he became one of the best horses I ever owned. It took lots of work but it was worth it and it really helped us bond. I was so sad that at the ranch he was at he got out of his pasture and ate poisonous Johnson grass and passed away it was very very sad.

Also for that to work well you really need to work on his woah I like Tiny's post. Might check teeth though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> I have not read all the responses, so sorry if I duplicate something.
> 
> See sawing the reins can be done once or twice to get the horse's attention, but used as a regular means of trying to slow him down will end up building a hardness in him, where rein/bit pressure becomes meaningless, just something to be ignored. So, don't do it hardely at all.
> 
> ...


Ummmm I think my brain just had a supernova, no I have no idea what you just said lol sorry


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> I'll share my personal experience i hope or will help you. I used to have a mustang who's previous owners did nothing but run him. He didn't know what it was to just walk around or trot around all he knew was canter and run. And there was absolutely no tiring this horse out. He would run all day if you let him. So we went back to the very beginning I swear we didn't do anything but walk for a month. I'd take him out on a trail and at first I could maybe get him to calm walk a few steps. When he would I'd give him lots of love and a short break. Then back to walking. When I finally got him walking normally then we started short trot sessions. When he trotted normally he would get praise and we would go back to walking. So I'd repeat that walk trot walk trot walk. Always go towards home at a walk. If when your going home and he wants to trot turn him away take him back farther then got back to a walk. It may take you quite a while to get home when you first do this but eventually he will figure out I can't go home unless I walk. After the walk and trot were good then I worked up into the canter. Then our routine became walk trot walk canter (short) walk and so on. Basically I'd randomly mix it up from there just after your gift from a fast pace for back to the walk. You may not need to take as long as I had to with this horse he needed lots of calming they had him so wound up poor guy. Anyways after a summer of doing that he became one of the best horses I ever owned. It took lots of work but it was worth it and it really helped us bond. I was so sad that at the ranch he was at he got out of his pasture and ate poisonous Johnson grass and passed away it was very very sad.
> 
> Also for that to work well you really need to work on his woah I like Tiny's post. Might check teeth though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i understand your point and I. Very sorry for your loss, but when I mean 'when I get home' I mean when I get home from ny. I'm pretty sure you got that but I just wanted to make sure lol. Very inspirational story.


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## TaraBearaIsBack (Oct 12, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> I'll share my personal experience i hope or will help you. I used to have a mustang who's previous owners did nothing but run him. He didn't know what it was to just walk around or trot around all he knew was canter and run. And there was absolutely no tiring this horse out. He would run all day if you let him. So we went back to the very beginning I swear we didn't do anything but walk for a month. I'd take him out on a trail and at first I could maybe get him to calm walk a few steps. When he would I'd give him lots of love and a short break. Then back to walking. When I finally got him walking normally then we started short trot sessions. When he trotted normally he would get praise and we would go back to walking. So I'd repeat that walk trot walk trot walk. Always go towards home at a walk. If when your going home and he wants to trot turn him away take him back farther then got back to a walk. It may take you quite a while to get home when you first do this but eventually he will figure out I can't go home unless I walk. After the walk and trot were good then I worked up into the canter. Then our routine became walk trot walk canter (short) walk and so on. Basically I'd randomly mix it up from there just after your gift from a fast pace for back to the walk. You may not need to take as long as I had to with this horse he needed lots of calming they had him so wound up poor guy. Anyways after a summer of doing that he became one of the best horses I ever owned. It took lots of work but it was worth it and it really helped us bond. I was so sad that at the ranch he was at he got out of his pasture and ate poisonous Johnson grass and passed away it was very very sad.
> 
> Also for that to work well you really need to work on his woah I like Tiny's post. Might check teeth though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's sad that he ended up passing away  I also had a similar experience with my mare that we let my neighbors ride on trails several times and then next thing I know they've run her everywhere and she won't walk. All she did was prance (and sometimes it WAS kind of cool cause she was doing a mini piaffe but I still had to fix it) I did basically the same thing you did and made sure to keep calm and quiet as she tried to go as fast as she could, sometimes I just had to get off so she would walk. But I was slowly able to cure her for the most part! She still likes to run on one part of the trail and I haven't work with her much there because I haven't taken her out there much recently.

I also agree with the teeth, but make sure you have a good dentist! I personally wouldn't go to just a vet because they don't get all that much dental knowledge. I have an amazing farrier-gone-dentist that has taught me so much about horse dental and one huge warning is power floating- nothing good can come from it. I probably wouldn't even let a vet float my horse's teeth now after hearing these stories of horses getting ruined by that. Equine Dentists are great though! My gelding got his teeth done a few months ago and he has changed dramatically and looks the best I've ever seen him!


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

TaraBearaIsBack said:


> That's sad that he ended up passing away  I also had a similar experience with my mare that we let my neighbors ride on trails several times and then next thing I know they've run her everywhere and she won't walk. All she did was prance (and sometimes it WAS kind of cool cause she was doing a mini piaffe but I still had to fix it) I did basically the same thing you did and made sure to keep calm and quiet as she tried to go as fast as she could, sometimes I just had to get off so she would walk. But I was slowly able to cure her for the most part! She still likes to run on one part of the trail and I haven't work with her much there because I haven't taken her out there much recently.
> 
> I also agree with the teeth, but make sure you have a good dentist! I personally wouldn't go to just a vet because they don't get all that much dental knowledge. I have an amazing farrier-gone-dentist that has taught me so much about horse dental and one huge warning is power floating- nothing good can come from it. I probably wouldn't even let a vet float my horse's teeth now after hearing these stories of horses getting ruined by that. Equine Dentists are great though! My gelding got his teeth done a few months ago and he has changed dramatically and looks the best I've ever seen him!


Thanx so much, and yes I have a good dentist, I just my horse up to see the dentist yesterday


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I had a feeling that I was not making myself clear. H m m m. 

what Punk said about teaching the horse to give to the bit, but putting on pressure and waiting until he gives. This is good. Just do that for starters.

my thing was taking that bit, where you teach the give, to the next step, where you are asking horse to both "give" and "stop". 
And I said to take it to the horse's hind end to help break up any braciness in the head, mouth and neck. Once the horse steps under in back, it's kind of a mental dam breaker, too. He may go right back to pushing against the bit when you pick up the reins, but if he thinks that that is all he can do, by moving his hind end over, you break him out of that "stuck" place and you get to start again, asking for flexion (like Punk said) AND asking for a back up step.

Once your horse will come to a stop AND back up a step or two, you'll find it much easier to stop him or slow him down becuase he has more respect for the rein. 

But you have to always be rewarding his small tries, if you expect him to keep trying. If he won't listen, then go into the hind end, do the disenagagement and see if THEN he will listen.

sheesh. I need a video. that does sound like gobbledy ****.


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> I had a feeling that I was not making myself clear. H m m m.
> 
> what Punk said about teaching the horse to give to the bit, but putting on pressure and waiting until he gives. This is good. Just do that for starters.
> 
> ...


Yeah a video would be great lol sorry......


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Tiny i follow you i'll see if i can video my mare practicing giving to the bit if you can video disengaging the hind end- i can show it from the ground but my mare isnt at that point yet in her riding
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> Tiny i follow you i'll see if i can video my mare practicing giving to the bit if you can video disengaging the hind end- i can show it from the ground but my mare isnt at that point yet in her riding
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That would be great thanx


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

I thank everyone who helped give me advice, it is much appreciated! I now have another concern. I think since maybe I was mean/harsh with him yesterday he was scared of me today? I went to say hi to him this morning before I left for NY and he kept backing away. I got to pet him once and I was scratching his forehead when he shook his head and then backed away some more. He would not let me come near him. I know that the exercises recommended to me for helping him listen to light pressure in the reins(thanx to Punkstank) will help gain his trust as well but are there any specific exercises I can do JUST for gaining trust. Thanx for posting and all of your help!


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

I'm training my mare tomorrow when I ride maybe I can give you something to help you as well
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Catch him pet him brush him talk to him and love him then put him up don't work him everyday. Fiddle around with him practice ground stuff like picking up his feet, backing up yielding hind quarters easy stuff give him a good pet when he does good. I do this kind if stuff with my colts it helps with bonding ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Catch him pet him brush him talk to him and love him then put him up don't work him everyday. Fiddle around with him practice ground stuff like picking up his feet, backing up yielding hind quarters easy stuff give him a good pet when he does good. I do this kind if stuff with my colts it helps with bonding ;-)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, thanx!


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> I'm training my mare tomorrow when I ride maybe I can give you something to help you as well
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That would be great thanx!!


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Your welcome. It's gives them small goals to complete doing lil mundane things like that on the ground and its good practice . When they complete those little goals like that I think it strengthens the bond like oh I'm just backed up and momma loves on me. To me it seems to build a more willingness to please thier handler. Like if I do this I get a reward. This is also a good chance to start practicing your pressure and release. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Your welcome. It's gives them small goals to complete doing lil mundane things like that on the ground and its good practice . When they complete those little goals like that I think it strengthens the bond like oh I'm just backed up and momma loves on me. To me it seems to build a more willingness to please thier handler. Like if I do this I get a reward. This is also a good chance to start practicing your pressure and release.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I agree with the others that you have found a training hole. It also sounds like he had only sort of learned what the reins mean. You had a forward horse that was basically kept to your pace via checks and rein shakes. He got sick of that. I also think there is an element of spoiling going on (it happens to everyone sometime or another). He probably is pretty sweet and gets what he wants most of the time. You got frustrated and reacted out of anger (again totally understandable). For him, that changed the rules and he is not sure what is what. He did not fully understand your correction and is now confused as to what behavior elicited that reaction. I would go back to groundwork and focus on lateral flexion. I would also in my mind establish rules (ie. when we walk he walks in this position next to me and if he deviates from that path I will correct him this way) and stick to them. That way you have a plan of action which means you won't be frustrated by not knowing how to react when he misbehaves.


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

rookie said:


> I agree with the others that you have found a training hole. It also sounds like he had only sort of learned what the reins mean. You had a forward horse that was basically kept to your pace via checks and rein shakes. He got sick of that. I also think there is an element of spoiling going on (it happens to everyone sometime or another). He probably is pretty sweet and gets what he wants most of the time. You got frustrated and reacted out of anger (again totally understandable). For him, that changed the rules and he is not sure what is what. He did not fully understand your correction and is now confused as to what behavior elicited that reaction. I would go back to groundwork and focus on lateral flexion. I would also in my mind establish rules (ie. when we walk he walks in this position next to me and if he deviates from that path I will correct him this way) and stick to them. That way you have a plan of action which means you won't be frustrated by not knowing how to react when he misbehaves.


Yes I'm going to just start working on groundwork thanx for posting I completely agree


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Finn, he may be upset, but I think Rookie's right I think he's just very confused. He doesn't know what's allowed and what isn't - so I think a few days off will do you both some good.
When you get back to it, all time spent positively with a horse leads to better trust+bond, so don't worry about that, that will fix itself in time.
But yielding his hind end, front end, backing up, side stepping, lateral flexation (turning his head side to side), vertical flexation (picking his head up and putting it down) are all good trust + RESPECT building exercise.
With horses, the horse who moves his feet less is in charge, so the one doing all the moving is subordinate. So say there's a yummy pile of hay, one horse is standing eating, the other comes up, if it's leader a quiet ear pin is enough to move the other horse away from the hay so that the leader can eat. If the new horse is subordinate he'll come around to the front and 'test the waters' to see if the leader is up for sharing, if he is they share, if he isn't an ear pin or squak will back the other horse off.

So you moving his feet with the yielding exercises helps assert you as in charge. In a way he understands. 

I'll get a video of my mare tomorrow yielding and working on giving to the bridle. She's typically good but we haven't worked on any of those exercises recently with pressure+release, we've been doing Clicker Training, so she may be rusty! We'll see how she does


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> Finn, he may be upset, but I think Rookie's right I think he's just very confused. He doesn't know what's allowed and what isn't - so I think a few days off will do you both some good.
> When you get back to it, all time spent positively with a horse leads to better trust+bond, so don't worry about that, that will fix itself in time.
> But yielding his hind end, front end, backing up, side stepping, lateral flexation (turning his head side to side), vertical flexation (picking his head up and putting it down) are all good trust + RESPECT building exercise.
> With horses, the horse who moves his feet less is in charge, so the one doing all the moving is subordinate. So say there's a yummy pile of hay, one horse is standing eating, the other comes up, if it's leader a quiet ear pin is enough to move the other horse away from the hay so that the leader can eat. If the new horse is subordinate he'll come around to the front and 'test the waters' to see if the leader is up for sharing, if he is they share, if he isn't an ear pin or squak will back the other horse off.
> ...


That would be great, thanx so much for all of your help!


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

So I was just pondering over your situation and realized I've dealt with almost the exact same issue with one of our rescues. *duh* Except with her it was just a matter of the horse not knowing she could go slow.

Her name is Pink, when I got on her for the first time (to see if she knew how to be ridden) she did quite well, she gave to her bit laterally on the ground and allowed me to lay across her back, so I got on. She started her gait (she's gaited) and would not walk under any circumstances. Having not worked with her hardly at all on the ground while moving (because she wasn't my project) I never realized she had the same issue on the ground too.
She would pull and pull on the lead and just fight with everything. 

At the same time a young volunteer at our rescue took a liking to her so I took the opportunity to teach her how to do ground work/yielding exercises with this mare.
They have come so far together, the only reason she's not riding her now is because the girl had to stop coming by as often (stupid school )
But next summer they'll pick up where they left off and start mounted work.

Luckily I took some videos of her working with the horse. This is just ground work yielding exercises, not giving to the bridle exercises (stupid me didn't get a video of that). 
This is the first one, the second day we worked with her. The first day we just practiced getting her to walk. We did that by leading her around the ring, each time she broke into her gait we would quickly turn her in toward the fence (so a tight turn) and go the other direction. Sometimes if she continued to be strong we'd halt and back up. By the second day and with her girl's calm demeanor they got the 'walking' thing down fairly well. 
This video is the second day, you'll see that yielding the hind end came easily but rather disjointed. She'll move her hind end away, but she'll be going forward or backwards with her front feet too, where you ideally want their front feet stationary. You'll see getting her to yield her front end was rather difficult and normally only got one foot to move. I would have liked to have seen her leader more focused on the horse and more assertive with backing her up when she got to pushy. The horse is off on her right front so that's why she keeps tripping and isn't as smooth as I'd like. Her feet really needed doing then (they did get done our farrier was away):






This is the third day, you'll notice she's doing really well yielding her hind end, she doesn't move her front feet at all xD it takes her a while to straighten them out silly girl! Her front end still needs work and she's doing well staying at an easy walk and turning away and toward the leader. She's also watching and focusing on her leader to know what to do, rather than just blowing through all pressure. I would have liked to have seen the leader looking where she was going rather than at the horse all the time (but who could blame her she's pretty!)







So this is how we work on teaching a horse to yield. I like to walk them around a bit, this horse was also learning how to be lead  but so that they're not just blindly being shoved around in circles. I like to time my yielding exercises for when the horse gets a little too forward or space invasive, just to help fix that problem at the same time 
Hope this helps, will try to get a giving to the bridle video tomorrow


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Interesting videos.

I noticed that you hold the line rather close to the horse's jaw. I am not a fan of that. I want the horse to have about two or even three times as much line as you have her , so that horse has the responsibility to move where she needs to be to maintain the correct distance and position in relation to the leader. 

there was a long discussion on another thread as to whether or not people wanted the horse at their shoulder, meaning horse's head is partly in front of their sholder, in front of them (meaning horse's shoulder at human's shoulder but head in front) or whole horse never coming in front of human's shoulder. Count me in the last one, except in cases where I must lead by the bridle and reins, wherein I allow the horse to be a little closer and his head may pass my body, but only very slightly.

as to a vide, I don't have any videos of me disengaging the hindquarters. I might like it if someone took some videos of me and others working with my trainer in early Dec when we have a clinic scheduled with her. I don't have very good video equip. Teh audio sucks on it. 

Have you ever seen Buck Branaman's videos? If you can scrape together the money, his "seven clinics" dvd series that is now for sale will be a great one to look at.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> I noticed that you hold the line rather close to the horse's jaw.


I believe the person IN the videos isn't Punk. I think Punk is the one speaking and filming. The person handling the horse is the girl Punk was teaching.

And I don't know if this video is any help at all, since this horse had the opposite issue to the OP (refused to move), but I think the stationary rein-pull bending part early on is quite similar to what was talked about before...


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Everyone goes on about what to do, pain, tack and so forth. First thing I look at if a horse becomes 'hot' is what it is being fed! 
Diet can make a big difference to a horse's temperament.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Tinyliny- absolutely agree she was holding to close. The reason was because if you held and inch further away the horse would be an inch further ahead. The horse was just learning to lead normally, she felt panicky and feels like she needs to run ahead of her leader at all times - the moment the lead is clipped she's pulling. So she was holding tight to not allow that, but i would have liked to have seen more release when the horse was in the correct spot and not pulling. But yes she's a young girl who volunteers with us, i was the one jabbering.  

Foxhunter!!!! I didnt even think of that! Your so right not sure why i didnt hink of it it's what made my mare completely better xD i'll let you help her with that though cause i dont know much but what you and desert taught me 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

@Punkstank I love the videos you shared with me today. I tried them on my other horse here in NY and he is better trained than Finn so he understood and it went well. I will try to have a video of it up tomorrow to see if I did it right. I did the first exercise you shared with me where you hold one rein and then put your other hand on their wither and keep your grip on the rein and wait for them to turn their head toward where the stirrup goes. So I did that on both sides with a halter. I did backing, I did back-end yielding on both sides. Pivots, and some side-stepping. And then I repeated all of that bareback with a halter. It went great, thanx so much, I can't wait to try it on the beast(Finn).
@Foxhunter I don't think it's the feed. He actually used to be fed sweet feed and now he is on regular grain(not sure what brand sorry) and he is still on the same supplement by the same brand as he was before I bought him. He doesn't seem agitated by it, if anything he seems to like it more. So I'm pretty sure that's not the culprit. I think Punkstank and rookie hit it right on the head, he just needs better training since he seems to have gaps.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Wahooo! Wtg. Thats great you have a more responsive horse to practice with, a video would be great. Did he do everything really well? I'm sure he already knows most of it but it doesn't hurt to reinforce and to teach you!  
I think all of these skills will make finn more responsive.

Also, i think you should talk to fox about his diet- i had no idea how wrong i was about what i was feeding my horse - i just did what the more experienced people around me said too. It's been 3 months since i changed her diet to what fox and desert suggested and helped me with- she's healthier and more focused than she's ever been!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> Wahooo! Wtg. Thats great you have a more responsive horse to practice with, a video would be great. Did he do everything really well? I'm sure he already knows most of it but it doesn't hurt to reinforce and to teach you!
> I think all of these skills will make finn more responsive.
> 
> Also, i think you should talk to fox about his diet- i had no idea how wrong i was about what i was feeding my horse - i just did what the more experienced people around me said too. It's been 3 months since i changed her diet to what fox and desert suggested and helped me with- she's healthier and more focused than she's ever been!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I will try my best to get a video tomorrow.I will see if I can find foxhunter and see what she thinks. Thanx again!


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Yoohoo foxhunter where are you......Punkstank tells me of some magical feed you give your horses to make them awesome!


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Check his feed, as it may be too hot for him.


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Palomine said:


> Check his feed, as it may be too hot for him.


What do you mean by too hot?


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

finn113 said:


> What do you mean by too hot?


It may be giving him too much energy and that may be what's making him hard to control. What do you feed him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> It may be giving him too much energy and that may be what's making him hard to control. What do you feed him?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Honestly I'm not I will ask my instructor. But I have a new question that may be be very controversal so um debating whether to start a new thread or not because then I would have to re-explain everything I have learned on here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Ok I just found out, it is Nutrena Safechoice


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Whats your new question? Would you prefer to PM it? Is it something that will already be fixed by the training we've suggested?

As for the diet, I don't know enough to say whether or not that's good - so I'll leave that to the experts, but I think his age/breed/exercise level and quantity of food would make a difference too - so they'll probably need to ask those questions.


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> Whats your new question? Would you prefer to PM it? Is it something that will already be fixed by the training we've suggested?
> 
> As for the diet, I don't know enough to say whether or not that's good - so I'll leave that to the experts, but I think his age/breed/exercise level and quantity of food would make a difference too - so they'll probably need to ask those questions.


Ok I will look into the feed and do some research while also trying to hunt down Foxhunter....(see what I did there, hunt, foxHUNTER, lol). I will put the new question as a "quick reply"


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Ok new prob.... Ugh this is going to be long....
Ok, so I usually pay for one training session with Finn(my instructor rides/trains him) every Monday, and one lesson per week as well. However, for the last month that has not been happening because of schedule issues..... But we finally sorted that out and my instructor wants to continue riding him every Monday, I however, don't. She may be "training" him but personally I believe that's my job. I don't mind have lessons because I still need some help, but I think that I should be the only one riding him. Reasons? Well.......
1.she does everything, instead of just working on one thing. I.e, instead of working on one main issue like his walk and trot, she canters him in a circle and jumps him too. IMO I think that she should just work on one specific thing instead overwhelming him with a whole bunch of things.
2. Thanx to Punkstank, i am now going to let his mouth heal and work on those exercises to train him better at responding to light pressure from the reins, so I will not be seriously riding for 2-3 weeks, it sounds like a lot, but it sure beats yelling at him 24/7. Therefore, I can't let her ride him, that would seriously ruin things.
3. I feel a little pang of jealousy. I feel like they might create a bond whereas he is my horse and IMO I should be the only one he loves lol. This one is more of a rant than a reason....
4. Everyone rides differently. She could teach him different aids, or ride differently than me. I mean her cues could be physical and mine verbal for example. If I was a horse I would be totally confused by 2 different cues. Again all my opinions here.
5. This one might be a little too picky but.... When she rides him she obviously rides in her saddle cuz that is what she is most comfortable and used to. For some reason this annoys me. Finn has a very weirdly shaped back so he has a saddle specially fit to him, he has to take a wide gullet,my trainer's horse has a very narrow back so her saddle gullet is either narrow, or medium.So his back probably gets pinched when she rides him and I don't appreciate that at all, how is she suppose to train him if he is in pain? 
6. This is probably the most important. I don't really feel like she is "training" him. I mean obviously from the title of the thread and my initial post I have been having problems with him, so IMO she hasn't really helped, there's $30 down the toilet.

So this is basically me just ranting. I mean I'm actually a pretty nice person and I don't just want to go up to her and say " you can't ride my horse anymore!"

So my question is, do you think he is getting any benefit from her riding him and its all in my head, or should stop paying her to ride him cuz it's not helping? 
Thanx for reading all of this, I'm hoping I'm not forgetting anything.....lol


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Ya know what - I completely agree with you. He's your horse, the two of you will develop your own communication, working together as partners- for hopefully the rest of his life. He's _your_ horse. Honestly it sounds like she's getting paid to just ride your horse around, potentially exacerbating his issues. 
Rather than letting her just ride him around can you just get an extra lesson on him?
Riding in her saddle is a BIG nono horses need a saddle that fits THEM and this could be causing many of his problems. Just one ride a week in a saddle that doesn't fit can cause damage to his back - and fear. If when she rides it hurts, he's associating riding with pain, which could very well be that pain we were discussing earlier that he's trying to 'run through'. 
If when she rides him she W/T/C/jumps him - but he's clearly not at that point IMO she's only making his issues worse.

Yes - go back to your exercises, work on getting him light in the bridle. Once you're able to safely walk/trot him on a light rein you can go back to having walk/trot lessons on him. But I wouldn't allow someone else to ride him, she may very well be cause of the pain and or the hardened mouth. 
Now your horse needs to learn again to give to light pressure AND needs to learn that saddles and riders aren't going to hurt him - if her saddle was. But I also think you should get his teeth floated too.

Those are my opinions - though they may not be popular on here as many people are very firm with 'get a trainer' ideas. But I think if you follow those exercises and get his teeth floated, use a saddle that fits him, and ride lightly he'll do well. You can get lessons on him but I wouldn't let someone else ride him.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

I don't think it hurts for you to continue your lessons but I wouldn't let her ride him anymore I think your right she may be making your problems worse. If I were training your horse and I knew you had a special saddle that he needed I would ask to use your saddle for the horses comfort. Does the size of the saddle not fit your trainer? I think what punk suggested is what I would do if I was in your situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

@punkstank, I completely agree with every word. And yes, that was exactly what I was thinking, exchange the training session to a lesson, so now I have two lessons a week, it's a bit more expensive but it will definitely be beneficial in the long run. I signed him up to get his teeth done Friday so that will happen soon. The saddle I ride in now should fit him properly, if I get everything else correctly and he is still acting up I will adjust the saddle.
And another thing! I have seen her do a riding session on another horse and she doesn't even brush him or anything, just saddles up and rides, gets off, and puts the horse back in the pasture with no sweep of a brush, or hoof picking or anything. and I wonder, does she do that with MY horse?! 

Now with that said, I love my instructor, when IM riding Finn she knows what she's talking about and teaches me well, and she is very nice. I just have a few issues that can easily be solved without her, and just a few pet-peeves..... But I still respect her.


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

@punkstank, I completely agree with every word. And yes, that was exactly what I was thinking, exchange the training session to a lesson, so now I have two lessons a week, it's a bit more expensive but it will definitely be beneficial in the long run. I signed him up to get his teeth done Friday so that will happen soon. The saddle I ride in now should fit him properly, if I get everything else correctly and he is still acting up I will adjust the saddle.
And another thing! I have seen her do a riding session on another horse and she doesn't even brush him or anything, just saddles up and rides, gets off, and puts the horse back in the pasture with no sweep of a brush, or hoof picking or anything. and I wonder, does she do that with MY horse?! 

Now with that said, I love my instructor, when IM riding Finn she knows what she's talking about and teaches me well, and she is very nice. I just have a few issues that can easily be solved without her, and just a few pet-peeves..... But I still respect her.


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> I don't think it hurts for you to continue your lessons but I wouldn't let her ride him anymore I think your right she may be making your problems worse. If I were training your horse and I knew you had a special saddle that he needed I would ask to use your saddle for the horses comfort. Does the size of the saddle not fit your trainer? I think what punk suggested is what I would do if I was in your situation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed. Read my reply to Punkstank, that's exactly what I'm doing. Thanx for the reply


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

Well ... I'm old so I no longer pull any punches. I'm a stickler for proper fitting tack and if your trainer is not using YOUR horses tack that's a deal breaker right there for me. "Get off my horse." Period. End of story.

And honestly, if she's "training" him all willy nilly like, it makes me wonder about the quality of lessons you are getting. I am NOT being mean or rude to you. Please don't misinterpret my post. Money doesn't grow on trees and if you aren't getting the best for your hard earned dollar, I'd start looking elsewhere.


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

BBBCrone said:


> Well ... I'm old so I no longer pull any punches. I'm a stickler for proper fitting tack and if your trainer is not using YOUR horses tack that's a deal breaker right there for me. "Get off my horse." Period. End of story.
> 
> And honestly, if she's "training" him all willy nilly like, it makes me wonder about the quality of lessons you are getting. I am NOT being mean or rude to you. Please don't misinterpret my post. Money doesn't grow on trees and if you aren't getting the best for your hard earned dollar, I'd start looking elsewhere.


Agreed. Even though I'm stopping the training sessions I still love her for lessons. She knows what she is talking about and teaches me well, I just have issues with her riding my horse. But she is great for just having lessons, I will not move from her for a while, I'm just not going to let her ride my rosé anymore thanx for the reply!


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Horse* not rose


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Thank you to everyone who replied.


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Also I was wondering, I am aiming to do hunters with Finn when I get him trained, I was wondering, why are there so many rules in hunters? I mean, I love the style of riding and I think that I ride more like a hunter than jumper, but I hate all the rules! I mean I can't put any boots on my horse, no square saddle pad, and I can only do a d-ring with the one type of bridle. Please someone inform me why this is so.


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Anyone?


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Wish I could help you. I only know about western events :-(
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Wish I could help you. I only know about western events :-(
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Haha its fine thanx for all your help before though!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

The rules and regulations are in place to preserve the tradition of hunters. 
By the way, you can use different bits, but the most common ones seen in the ring (ie the fad) is D rings and Pelhams, for various reasons.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

JustDressageIt said:


> The rules and regulations are in place to preserve the tradition of hunters.
> By the way, you can use different bits, but the most common ones seen in the ring (ie the fad) is D rings and Pelhams, for various reasons.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well I heard that you can't use boots and my horse oversteps so I need bell boots on him. So is it true that I can't use boots or a square saddle pad? Because I ride more like a hunter and I really want to go that route but I just don't understand 
the rules. If someone could explain this to me that would be much appreciated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Hey Punkstank, when I do the exercises you suggested how long should I work on them per session?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2012/16-HU.pdf


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

because its based off foxhunting and there are lots of rules in foxhunting. all the rules are based off tradition basically


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Finn- i havent the slightest clue about all the fox hunting rules 
As for the exercises- i try to keep my sessions short and sweet, but you can lengthen your sessions by working on multiple different things in one session.
So spend the first 5 minutes working on giving to the halted/bridle laterally. Then the next 5 working on yielding the hind end on the ground on both sides. Then 5 on the front end, then some on backing up. But mix and match all throughout your session. Like in the video with the girl working with the pink horse i showed earlier- you'll see she leads her around, stops and makes her do a few different yields then keeps walking. That sort of thing. I'd do a max of 20-25 minutes, but i'd do a couple sessions a day if i could to speed up the process. Horses don't need annoying repetition, once they get the point thy get it- but they need work to get it. Often times practicing a skill a few times with the correct response, then give them a couple hours o think about it, when you go back they've got it so much better than how you left it 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

JustDressageIt said:


> http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2012/16-HU.pdf


Thank you very much for that, it cleared most things up, I guess I'm just gonna have to train my horse not to overstep?! Lol thanx again!


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> Finn- i havent the slightest clue about all the fox hunting rules
> As for the exercises- i try to keep my sessions short and sweet, but you can lengthen your sessions by working on multiple different things in one session.
> So spend the first 5 minutes working on giving to the halted/bridle laterally. Then the next 5 working on yielding the hind end on the ground on both sides. Then 5 on the front end, then some on backing up. But mix and match all throughout your session. Like in the video with the girl working with the pink horse i showed earlier- you'll see she leads her around, stops and makes her do a few different yields then keeps walking. That sort of thing. I'd do a max of 20-25 minutes, but i'd do a couple sessions a day if i could to speed up the process. Horses don't need annoying repetition, once they get the point thy get it- but they need work to get it. Often times practicing a skill a few times with the correct response, then give them a couple hours o think about it, when you go back they've got it so much better than how you left it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok thanx! Today I was working with my other horse, not Finn. I did the halter laterally, backing, and the yielding. But for the yielding I put a little pressure on his flank and he moves in a circle which is correct, and he moves his back feet(and I was happy that when he moved his back feet he would cross over another) and his front feet would just pivot a bit, is this back end yielding or front end yielding? I think it's back-end and if so, how do I do front-end yielding?


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

It's confusing, they call it 'yielding the hind end' when the front is still and the back is moving, but it's called a 'turn on the forhand' when the same thing is happening, so it gets confusing.
I like 'yielding the hind end' because it's more literal.
To get them to yield the front end, if you watch the video of the girl with Pink you'll see her apply pressure to the horse's shoulder, the squishy part. The appropriate response is for the hind feet to stay still and the front feet to cross over. This is probably the hardest skill for horses to do - so be patient with this one, but this is a great respect building skill. If you find the horse backs up when you do it you're pushing too far forward, if they walk forward you're pushing too far back, applying a little pressure to the lead to help stop forward motion is helpful too to guide them. Just make sure you give slack when they try to turn away from you. You don't want to bump their head if they're doing the right thing 
You can also teach them to side step, by pressing just where your foot would go on their side when riding - this you want them to step directly sideways.

Good luck, keep up the good work


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> It's confusing, they call it 'yielding the hind end' when the front is still and the back is moving, but it's called a 'turn on the forhand' when the same thing is happening, so it gets confusing.
> I like 'yielding the hind end' because it's more literal.
> To get them to yield the front end, if you watch the video of the girl with Pink you'll see her apply pressure to the horse's shoulder, the squishy part. The appropriate response is for the hind feet to stay still and the front feet to cross over. This is probably the hardest skill for horses to do - so be patient with this one, but this is a great respect building skill. If you find the horse backs up when you do it you're pushing too far forward, if they walk forward you're pushing too far back, applying a little pressure to the lead to help stop forward motion is helpful too to guide them. Just make sure you give slack when they try to turn away from you. You don't want to bump their head if they're doing the right thing
> You can also teach them to side step, by pressing just where your foot would go on their side when riding - this you want them to step directly sideways.
> ...


Ok thanx so much for all your help!


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

@Punkstank so your saying I should spend at least 5 minutes on each skill? 5 for the halter/bride laterally, 5 for hind end yielding, 5 for front end yielding, 5 for backing, and 5 for side-stepping. Then like a 30 minute break and repeat again. With my schedule I can only do two sessions a day.


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

finn113 said:


> @Punkstank so your saying I should spend at least 5 minutes on each skill? 5 for the halter/bride laterally, 5 for hind end yielding, 5 for front end yielding, 5 for backing, and 5 for side-stepping. Then like a 30 minute break and repeat again. With my schedule I can only do two sessions a day.


Haha nvm I just reread one of your posts and you already said to work on each thing 5 mins so disregard my last post lol


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## lacey123 (Jan 19, 2012)

horses usually only overstep when they aren't truly forward. Maybe after working on all of these exersizes he will learn how to actually be forward and not run. It is a very hard thing to teach a horse that just wants to go, I am dealing with it now so I feel your pain!


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## lacey123 (Jan 19, 2012)

By overstepping I mean forging into there front legs, not overstepping like in the dressage sense, that is a good thing lol!


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Lol I know what you mean. Yeah I'm hoping the exercises help!


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## finn113 (Aug 21, 2012)

Thanx to everyone who replied!!


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