# Antique Carriage information wanted



## adalira (Jun 10, 2013)

Hello Everybody,

I am trying to sell my grandmother's antique carriage that she used back in the day. I am trying to find information on the model and to see if i can find from what year it is and any other information on it. SO far i have had no luck finding anything on it.
I will attach a photo so you can look at it and maybe someone recognizes it?
Also i would like to know the best way to restore it.
It has the authentic ligts with it, the ones that hold candles with the actual candles still inside.
I hope you can help me on this journey.
Thank you all in advance


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Are you in the USA? That carrige is interesting...I have a carriage that seems to be in the same style that is Eastern European. Does the carriage have shafts or a pole?


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

You might try contacting one of the carriage museums. There are a couple that I know of. There is this one:
Carriage Museum of America
Then there is this one, which is actually near me.
Granger Homestead and Carriage Museum

I never knew anything about driving, but my best friend used to drive a lot, so I have learned. She has several antique carriages. Anyway, one of the largest competitions is in our area, and many of the carriages are antique. Here is the website of the competition. Perhaps one of the driving societies could help also.

PCA


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## adalira (Jun 10, 2013)

I actually am from Europe. The Netherlands to be exact. What do you mean with "Shaft or pole"?


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Sorry, I see the shaft tip ( for a single horse) in the bottom of the picture. A pole goes in between a pair of horses.

The CAA is a good source of information on carriages.

Nancy


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## adalira (Jun 10, 2013)

Thank you all so much for you help so far. I have contacted the CMA, sent them an email plus photo's and will hopefully hear something soon.
Any other information is more than welcome off course


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## morganarab94 (May 16, 2013)

I have no advice but I wanted to say that it is absolutley gorgeous! I love it.


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## adalira (Jun 10, 2013)

morganarab94 said:


> I have no advice but I wanted to say that it is absolutley gorgeous! I love it.


Compliments are most welcome too 
Thank you!


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Your carriage is in excellent condition. IDK as much about driving as the others who have posted here, put it's _possible_ that this carriage could have still been in use even into the 1930's.
You should hold out for a good price for it.


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## adalira (Jun 10, 2013)

Corporal said:


> Your carriage is in excellent condition. IDK as much about driving as the others who have posted here, put it's _possible_ that this carriage could have still been in use even into the 1930's.
> You should hold out for a good price for it.


Thank you 
I am currently restoring it, re-painting where needed but keeping it as much as the original as possible.
I haven't heard back from professionals yet on what price to expect for it. Anyone in here have any ideas?


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

It is very unusual, I am not even sure where the driver sits.
I see the rein rail on the dash board, but the driver would have to sit sideways to drive from the front seat, and if the carriage is driven from the rear seat, why put the front seat in the carriage because no one could sit there.
How about some more photos?


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## littrella (Aug 28, 2010)

Taffy, I was wondering the same thing!


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## Skunkworks (Oct 22, 2012)

Riding on the horse maybe?


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I seem to remember reading that these rear driven carriages had the seat in the front for the children. I don't know how you would keep them out of the reins, though. 

The carriage is so pretty. I love the metal work and the wheels. The upholstery looks redone, and may need to be done to original specs to bring the best price.

Nancy


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## adalira (Jun 10, 2013)

My Grandmother used to sit on the left of the back bench and look around or between the persons sitting on the front bench. I was asking information on a german horse forum as well and someone there thinks that maybe there was a seat on the front (the empty space you see, which my grandmother used for a big picknick basket) where someone would sit higher up to drive the people around. But i don;t think my grandmother ever had that seat with it. Nor do i know if it came with it or if it was build for a picknick basket like she used it for. 
Anyone have any ideas where i can possibly find the name of the builder or building year on it?
I have put the carriage back in the garage for now, i have repainted the metal work but since we will have rain the next few days, i wanted to keep it dry to protect it. Thank you all so much for your help so far


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## adalira (Jun 10, 2013)

Here are some more photos as you requested


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I don't think there was a seat in the front....there is no room for a dash. If there WAS, it would GREATLY deminish the value of the carriage to no longer have it. 

Nancy


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

greentree said:


> I don't think there was a seat in the front....there is no room for a dash. If there WAS, it would GREATLY deminish the value of the carriage to no longer have it.
> 
> Nancy


No place for the drivers feet either.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

I guess they did drive from the rear seat, and put two small children in the front, hence the very small rein rail.
You would have to have very long reins though.

The wheels are beautiful!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I believe the style of carriage is a Phaeton, with the larger rear wheels. Children knew better than to squabble when in a horse conveyance. It may be German in origin.


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## adalira (Jun 10, 2013)

I can't wait to try and find a date on it to see from what year it is. Someone told me that the year might be on the axe of the wheel, meaning we will have to take a wheel of to try and find it. If only the weather would be better....need to be patient for now. Thank you so much again for the information. Keep it coming  SO great to get some information on it and learn about the history of it.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Adalira, try this [email protected]

He does carriage appraisals and sales. I do not know why I didn't think of him before...

Nancy


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

I saw an ad for a Pickering Float and the lines reminded me of your vehicle. 
Pickering bro's in Liverpool.

pickering float carriage - Bing Images

Liverpool Gig - Carriage for sale Caton Nr Lancaster Dragon Driving


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## adalira (Jun 10, 2013)

Taffy Clayton said:


> I saw an ad for a Pickering Float and the lines reminded me of your vehicle.
> Pickering bro's in Liverpool.
> 
> pickering float carriage - Bing Images
> ...


The linework does look like it a bit, however the ones in the photo are a lot smaller. So i'm not sure if it is the same kind of carriage. Thank you for the links though. The photos were beautiful!


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## adalira (Jun 10, 2013)

greentree said:


> Adalira, try this [email protected]
> 
> He does carriage appraisals and sales. I do not know why I didn't think of him before...
> 
> Nancy


Thank you so much! I will contact him asap!
I also got an email from the carriage museum library with a link to someone that might be able to help. 
The search continues!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I can't help but think, by how nicely this vehicle is turned out, that it was designed as a lady's carriage, possibly for shopping and church. By sitting in the middle she could likely tuck a wee child in beside her with another two sitting across. Are those doors on each side? Regardless they would help prevent road dirt from soiling her frock.


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## adalira (Jun 10, 2013)

Saddlebag said:


> I can't help but think, by how nicely this vehicle is turned out, that it was designed as a lady's carriage, possibly for shopping and church. By sitting in the middle she could likely tuck a wee child in beside her with another two sitting across. Are those doors on each side? Regardless they would help prevent road dirt from soiling her frock.


Yes those are doors on each side. By pushing the handle the door opens and you close them by clicking the shut.
I remember when my grandmother used it she had (besides her) 3 adults in there with her so 4 adults in total or 3 smaller children on the one bench and an adult next to her and a big picknick basket on the front with sandwiches and drinks to stop somewhere in a big field or forest to take a break. The drives she did with the amazones, who rode on horses behind te carriage, would take about 4 sometimes 5 hours through forest and fields in the area.


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## allchestnuts (Mar 30, 2013)

The vehicle is a "sociable" of European origins. The squared 90% corners, lack of curved lines, and strong "utilitarian" aspect are typical of the vehicles made and found on the continent. US and English vehicles tended to have rounded curves and more "flair" to their design. They also tended to accomodate 4 passengers in a back to back arrangement, or two seats facing forward, as the "sociable" or "vis-a-vis" (French for "face to face") wasn't one of the more popular vehicles in the US/England because they usually demanded a coachman.There were a few US vehicles made to be driven privately by the owner which featured dash seats, but those generally had small "foot stool" type seats that folded down when needed and were flipped up out of sight when not used. 

In this vehicle pictured the driver sat in the seat facing the horses (this vehicle was designed for a pair BTW), and any guests sat either next to the driver, or in the back facing seat. It isn't a child's carriage, or designed specifically for children. It was designed simply to accomodate 4 passengers. And it wasn't a gender specific carriage - it could equally be used by a lady or a gentleman.

I'm not sure you'll find a date on the axle, hub, or wheel. You might, however, look under the seat, or on the body framing to see if a number is stamped there. Depending upon what you find, the CAA may be able to help you ascertain if the number is clue to one of the European carriage manufacturers.


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## allchestnuts (Mar 30, 2013)

Adding:

The type of wheel used is also an indication of age as certain styles of wheel came into the carriage world at certain times. It looks like it has Sarven wheel (straight line spokes) - a style that was patented in the 1850's in the US, and became popular in the 1870s because it was easier to make than offset hubs. 

The type hubs would be your biggest, and most accurate clue to the era this carriage was made, short of finding a bill of sale.

In all it looks like a nice, sturdy, working type vehicle for traveling and picnics.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

allchestnuts said:


> The vehicle is a "sociable" of European origins. The squared 90% corners, lack of curved lines, and strong "utilitarian" aspect are typical of the vehicles made and found on the continent. US and English vehicles tended to have rounded curves and more "flair" to their design. They also tended to accomodate 4 passengers in a back to back arrangement, or two seats facing forward, as the "sociable" or "vis-a-vis" (French for "face to face") wasn't one of the more popular vehicles in the US/England because they usually demanded a coachman.There were a few US vehicles made to be driven privately by the owner which featured dash seats, but those generally had small "foot stool" type seats that folded down when needed and were flipped up out of sight when not used.
> 
> In this vehicle pictured the driver sat in the seat facing the horses (this vehicle was designed for a pair BTW), and any guests sat either next to the driver, or in the back facing seat. It isn't a child's carriage, or designed specifically for children. It was designed simply to accomodate 4 passengers. And it wasn't a gender specific carriage - it could equally be used by a lady or a gentleman.
> 
> I'm not sure you'll find a date on the axle, hub, or wheel. You might, however, look under the seat, or on the body framing to see if a number is stamped there. Depending upon what you find, the CAA may be able to help you ascertain if the number is clue to one of the European carriage manufacturers.



Good info !!! Thanks.


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## BornToRun (Sep 18, 2011)

O.O I'm so jealous!


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## adalira (Jun 10, 2013)

allchestnuts said:


> The vehicle is a "sociable" of European origins. The squared 90% corners, lack of curved lines, and strong "utilitarian" aspect are typical of the vehicles made and found on the continent. US and English vehicles tended to have rounded curves and more "flair" to their design. They also tended to accomodate 4 passengers in a back to back arrangement, or two seats facing forward, as the "sociable" or "vis-a-vis" (French for "face to face") wasn't one of the more popular vehicles in the US/England because they usually demanded a coachman.There were a few US vehicles made to be driven privately by the owner which featured dash seats, but those generally had small "foot stool" type seats that folded down when needed and were flipped up out of sight when not used.
> 
> In this vehicle pictured the driver sat in the seat facing the horses (this vehicle was designed for a pair BTW), and any guests sat either next to the driver, or in the back facing seat. It isn't a child's carriage, or designed specifically for children. It was designed simply to accomodate 4 passengers. And it wasn't a gender specific carriage - it could equally be used by a lady or a gentleman.
> 
> I'm not sure you'll find a date on the axle, hub, or wheel. You might, however, look under the seat, or on the body framing to see if a number is stamped there. Depending upon what you find, the CAA may be able to help you ascertain if the number is clue to one of the European carriage manufacturers.


Wow, thank you so much for all the information. That was great! I haven't heard back from any of the "Professional" sales places and do not think i will hear back anything either. Unfortunatly the weather is pretty bad here in the Netherlands (europe) so i haven't been able to do any work on it anymore. We are hoping the weather will turn around and we will finally get some summer over here so i can get started on it again. I love all the information on it. Thank you once again


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Do you have any European auction sites that you could check? Also, you might check with Girard . He is Dutch, but lives in Canada now. His email is [email protected] Pieter Franken may be able to help, too. You will have to google Dutch Horse Friends...I think that is it. 

Sorry they have not gotten back to you! HTH,

Nancy


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## adalira (Jun 10, 2013)

greentree said:


> Do you have any European auction sites that you could check? Also, you might check with Girard . He is Dutch, but lives in Canada now. His email is [email protected] Pieter Franken may be able to help, too. You will have to google Dutch Horse Friends...I think that is it.
> 
> Sorry they have not gotten back to you! HTH,
> 
> Nancy


Thank you so much! I will definitly contact him. I will do that right away.
We have Ebay in Holland and another second hand sales website butnot real auction websites i believe. I will have to look into that.
So far still no one has gotten back to me yet and the weather is still awfull over here so the carriage has not been out of the garage anymore :-(
Where did the summer run off too? Is it camping in the US maybe :wink:


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## adalira (Jun 10, 2013)

Finally the weather was nice enough to take the carriage out of the garage and start working on it 
I managed to re-paint the wheels and use an organic flax seed oil especially made for sealing wood to paint over all the wood. The carriage looks amazing right now and shines as if new.
I do have a few questions some of you may be able to answer for me: The wheels are made from rubber (the outside i mean, the part rolling on the road) and don't look to great. Can i paint those or just wash them very well?
The other question is: The green fabric is damaged at some parts a bit. Will it pay off to re-furnish it with new fabric or is it not worth it and best to let the person buying it do it?
Does the carriage go down in value a lot leaving the fabric as it is?
Thank you in advance for your help on my journey


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

If it were mine, I would leave the upholstery the was it is, You can run into a lot of money redoing it. I would leave it and let the buyer deal with it. Unless the carriage looks like it is going to be worth a lot of money, I do not think you will get your money back in the selling price. Leave the rubber on the wheels as is, you can clean it with Armor-all.


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## adalira (Jun 10, 2013)

Taffy Clayton said:


> If it were mine, I would leave the upholstery the was it is, You can run into a lot of money redoing it. I would leave it and let the buyer deal with it. Unless the carriage looks like it is going to be worth a lot of money, I do not think you will get your money back in the selling price. Leave the rubber on the wheels as is, you can clean it with Armor-all.


Thank you, I will see if Armor-all is available on the Netherlands. At least something similar will be.
I thought that re-doing the fabric may make it go up in value, but if not then there is no use in us putting more time and money into that.


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