# Livestock Guardian Dogs?



## jillybean19

I'll be getting my own horse property soon and moving my horses there. However, I want to know at all times my horses (and family!) are safe. There are cougars in the area, so I want something that will be able to alert me and stand up to them and any other predators, as well as let me know if the horses are "off" - i.e. injured or sick. In addition, I'm a trail/endurance rider, so I want a dog I can bring with me and know we're safe. Preferably, I'd like something that can go down the trail with me off-leash if needed.


The Great Pyrenees seems to be the perfect dog for us, except for the off leash part. I got my info from this website: The Great Pyrenees Temperament

What I like about them especially are these things:
- Confident
- Gentle and easily managed (we need a dog patient with kids)
- Affectionate and loyal, but not attention-seekers or needy dogs (I plan for it to live in the pasture/barn and don't want it to get excited about new people)
- Not a one-man-dog
- Protective, but only agressive when necessary
- Laid-back and tolerant, particularly of small things like children and of strangers petting them
- Independent - I need a dog that can think for itself and make decisions; I also liked how the dogs evaluate each new person or animal to decide if they're welcome
- Attentive and fearless
and of course, they were bred specifically for the purpose I need one for.

Is there another breed that has most of these characteristics that would do better off leash? I understand that staying nearby off-leash can directly contradict some of the traits I value more, such as independence and ability to make their own decisions when guarding my horses and family, but it doesn't hurt to ask. Worst case scenario, I guess we could do something with an invisible fence or limit his territory with goatwire fencing. I plan to have his territory include the pasture and barn areas as I wouldn't want him in the front yard if someone needed to come to the door. Any suggestions for other breeds? Or anybody with experiences with Great Pyrenees?


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## Celeste

One of my work colleagues has one, and he says that it is the best dog he ever had. He protects the chickens and the grandchildren and the cats and is a great pet. Any dog would have to be socialized with all the species you wanted him to get along with from early puppyhood. I would never get an adult dog of one of these breeds unless I knew that he considered children, cats, horses, and chickens as part of the family.


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## Barrelracer00

I have one! Great, great dog. Amazing. Also, some of my friends and family have some. You see, I have one to protect our barn ALSO. We have wolves in the area. Anyways, if you get him to love you, he will go off leash with you. Get a puppy though, those puppies will do ANYTHING. So if you start him off with the trail young, thats your dog. Good luck!


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## Saddlebag

Not a dog to accompany you on trail rides, not built for that. On of the speed breeds would be good for that.


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## Celeste

They would do fine on my trail rides because we don't go that far or that fast. If you were a long distant rider, that is certainly something to think about. These dogs have long hair and are really heavy. They could tire and overheat.


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## BigGreyHorse

I could talk for days on livestock guardian dogs. I've had Great Pyrenees, a GP cross, and mastiffs. 

I think you really have to do your homework with LGDs. My advice would be to pick a dog from a farm/predator situation similar to your own. Try to get a look at the parents while they are working. I truly believe good guarding traits are imprinted earlier than we can imagine. Also, keep in mind that most LGDs work predators in pairs. If you have an active predator situation, a pair of older, trained LGDs might be a better answer. 

Having had a LGD with fence and boundary problems, I would never recommend any guardian breed for off-leash or off property situations. IMO, it goes totally against their training. You are almost telling them that it's OK to "expand" their territory. You give the wrong one that signal and you'll have fence issues like you wouldn't believe and you may or may not be able to resolve them. 

Have you looked at working dogs that are not as commonly used as livestock guardians? Bernese Mountain, German Shepherd or the Wolf hounds?


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## Celeste

I almost bought a Great Pyrenees last year. I talked myself out of it because I was concerned about liability issues. Our neighbors have two small children. Another neighbor had a dog that bit one of the kids. There was talk of a law suit; I think they settled out of court.


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## lilruffian

Great Pyrenees or perhaps an Akbash. It is very similar to the GP, only built a bit leaner and more for running. Similar temperament, though. My aunt's ex owned two of them as well as a GP. He bought them as livestock guardians for his horses, the only thing is they like space to move. Definitely not a small town or acreage dog.
They're also not highly recommended for obedience classes lol
They do go after coyotes, however. My aunt's used to go nuts when they heard the coyotes howling nearby and killed one together at just six months. Oddly enough they were very good with other dogs, children and animals.
Here's a link with a general desciption Akbash Dog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## jillybean19

I've decided I wouldn't be looking to take one on trail rides, especially because I don't think it'd be fair to ask any dog to go the distance or speed I'd be riding. However, I would like to have a dog with me in the mountains at camp to warn me if a bear or cougar, etc, is coming. I'm actually semi-allergic to dogs in general, but the article said GP's lack the oil in their coats that usually cause people to react. In addition, I'm intending the dog to be out on their own most of the time and not to need me to love on them all the time due to my allergies.

What do you guys think about having a goat-wire 4-ft fence with hot-wire to keep a GP in the pasture/barn area? Do you think it'd get out?


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## Celeste

I think the goats will get out.


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## jaydee

Its all in the training really no matter what you get. I know a lot of people who have had dogs that are considered 'suspect' yet they are totally wonderful around people.
These huge hairy breeds dont do well in extreme heat and tend to have joint problems, short lived, and will struggle on long trail rides if you do much trot or canter work
We have had labradors, german pointers and springer spaniels that were great yard dogs but perfect around the family and anyone who was supposed to be around the property. They also had the energy to keep up on the trails and as they are very trainable always ran 'to heel' even on roads with traffic in the UK
We currently have a german short haired pointer and a german wire haired x deerhound who are also great for deterring wildlife - coyotes etc, know how to behave around horses and really obedient on the trails. They live out all the time but have a compound to be shut into at night or if we are out - I wouldn't want to ask any family dog to take on a cougar or even a wolf, as long as they bark to alert thats enough


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## deserthorsewoman

Have you looked into Maremmanis or Cane Corsos?
Maremmanis come from a very hot, humid area in Italy but are longhaired, so are suitable for all climates.
The Cane Corso is a mastiff, very protective and territorial, but a great big puppydog with his people. He is short haired and can easily keep up with a horse.


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## LovesMyDunnBoy

Anatolian Shepherd and GP makes a really good cross. She was a perfect dog.
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## FeatheredFeet

LGs are just that. They are and have been, bred for hundreds of years, to stay with the flock and protect it. There are also, many different breeds, of LGs. 

They have been bred to think for themselves and most don't take easily to formal obedience training. They have a bit of a feral streak in them. They will take on anything, which they consider invading their property. That means domestic animals, which which they have not been brought up with, wild animals and even humans. The have a big bark and use it! So if neighbours are close, most are not suitable, since they do bark at night if they hear or see something. This is one of the reasons, we see so many in rescue. People get them in the city and soon have neighbour troubles. Our local GP rescue is always full. Texas GP rescues, have so many, they often ship them out here to our California rescues.

A note on rescues.
With so many losing their farms these days, there are some excellent _true_ working dogs available. Most of the time, the rescues know which animals they have been brought up with. Don't expect such dogs to be your friend. They will likely be aloof and except for the usual care, prefer to stay out with the flock.

They are very territorial and with that, comes the problems that they often consider everything they can see, their territory. If (for example) a coyote enters the property or comes close to fencing, they will do anything to keep on chasing it. They will climb, jump or dig under fencing, to dispatch the invader.

Many LGs have for generations, not been used for their intended purpose, so have lost some of their previous instincts. It is still there, but not quite so much as those who have been bred purely as working dogs. 

Many LG breeds have some major genetic problems. Unfortunately, not all those who breed for work, test their breeding stock. People who breed for the show ring, are more likely to have their stock tested, but they might not necessarily, be the type to do the job alone and left out.

A good LG breeder, will have tested his dogs for all the genetic problem known in that particular breed. His dogs will have lived with the flock from puppyhood. 

Some LGs are or can be, very aggressive to all but the owner. Most would not be suitable to guard a flock and also take out in public on a trail ride. It would likely try to attack and even kill, loose dogs accompanying other dogs, he might meet along the trail. Remember, LGs consider everything their own territory. 

Certainly there are other breeds, which might be able to handle home security and also go on trail rides. Irish Wolfhounds, Scottish Deerhounds and a few others might suit. IW's however, have many genetic problems such as heart disease, so the breeder would have to be carefully chosen. Also, being bred as a sight hound, they are more likely to take off when out and about. That would involve careful training and a _very_ solid recall.

GP's seem to be a favourite guardian breed. I would not recommend a Causasian Ovcharka to _anyone_, not extremely knowledgeable with LG breeds. Beautiful dogs, but most are extremely aggressive and focused. Definitely not for the novice or faint of heart.

Anatolians can be a good choice. We have owned one. Not so much coat to deal with, as a GP for example. Escape artist supreme. She didn't jump fences or dig under, but learned when the electric gates opened, she could escape. The neighbour had a very old African Lion, down the road. He was in an enclosure and had been an old movie animal. He never bothered anyone, but our Anatolian always made a beeline for his property, to try to get him. We always knew where to find her!

I suggest a whole lot of homework about all LGs, before jumping in. 
GOOD AND SOLID FENCING IS A MUST FOR ALL LG BREEDS. Everything they see, they consider their territory.

They do try to escape and wander, given the chance. We constantly find them loose out here in S. Cal., wandering through the desert and mountain areas.

Lizzie


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## paintedpastures

Have never owned one but been around some this is my take on them>>The ones I've met have been big friendly souls.They are more nocturnal,like to sleep & lie around most the day but are up patrolling at night. They aren't always easy to train ,have to teach them young the yard perimeters. If not socialized well they are protective of their property & people so not always welcoming to visitors:-(. They are just that livestock protection dogs & most do great job,but not always the case :-(Do know I saw one today advertised though, that never worked out as it seemed to like the new lambs as a meal:shock: so they recommended it go to place with larger livestock. Also had friends that had one he did good job protecting his herd so much he wouldn't accept any new stock to herd,they had to get rid of him. I have not heard of any that like being trail riding buddies or type you take camping:wink:


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## freia

There's a GP rescue in Portland. I've worked with them, and they're great. I decided on the old standby Lab instead, though. Is that too far from you? Rescues are great, because they take to time to really get to know the dog, and they'll usually take it back or help you if there's a problem.

National Pyr Rescue Dogs


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## Saddlebag

Something one should consider when mixing a dog with a larger predator. The dog may head out in hot persuit, barking his face off but if the predator turns on him, guess where the dog runs, to it's owner or home. Generally a barking dog is enough to deter larger predators from coming in too close. The main reason children get bitten by large dogs is a child's eyes and the dog's eyes are too close in height. The child (with predator eyes) unwittingly looks the the dog (predator eyes) and the dog interprets this as a sign of aggression.


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## Dead Rabbit

i have a GP and she keeps the chickens and rabbits alive that i raise. an excellent dog. great at her job. she has chased a bear away. brought live ooposum up to me in her mouth, and ive lost nothing inside the peremiter fence since ive owned her. she even chases large birds away that fly across the yard. shes very keen on hawk attacks. a very loving dog. and very loyal. also protective to both my wife and my self. thats the good points.

bad points. nocturnal. barks all night long. likes to roam and must be kept penned in a peremiter fence or she is all over the neighbor hood. you must not baby her or treat her as a pet or she gets so attached to humans that she will want to be with you and will neglect her duties. has such a high prey drive, and underground fence will not keep her in. takes the shock and keeps going

to solve these issues. i have the past couple yrs. got her debarked. keep her inside the perimeter fence, do not pet and make over her like a normal family pet. she was spoiled by my wife when she was young but ive not given into her near as much and she does a better job at the work at hand.


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## Sliding Stop

English Mastiffs. They are the awesome. I have one and he's fantastic, and fits all of your qualifications. They are huge though, I'm not sure what your limits are.


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## Cacowgirl

Another thought-Rhodesian Ridgeback. A good dog for a hot area.


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## ParaIndy

Rhodesian Ridgebacks would not make good LG dogs in my opinion. We once had one and when we moved to a cattle ranch, we slowly introduced him to cows and he did great, but we had a hand on his collar the whole time. The first time we let him out with a cow, he attacked it and and would not stop no matter what we did. Finally, my dad got close enough to grab him and drag him off. He also attacked and ate our chickens when ever he had the chance. He was a really dumb dog, and we finally had to get rid of him.


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## ParaIndy

Now we have two Pyranees, and we totally love them! One time our older one attacked and killed a coyote that was about to attack one of our goats, and he always starts barking and freaking out when a strange dog or person comes around. He even lets us know when the cows get out! Both of them are very sensitive to punishment and easy to train.


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## smrobs

IMHO, if you're looking for something that can guard against larger predators like cougars, then I would be more inclined to look for a mule or a donkey...maybe even a llama or alpaca. Those are common around here as livestock guardians. Then, you could get whatever dog breed you wanted for trail riding. I only have personal experience with herding dogs like Border Collies, Heelers, and Kelpies and they make excellent trail companions because they are high energy, easily trained, and loyal. However, pretty much any breed that is in reasonably good shape can make a good trail companion for _leisurely_ trail rides.


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## equiniphile

A local hay farmer breeds GPs and swears up and down they're the greatest livestock guard dogs out there. A GP would be my first pick for livestock. We have coyotes, fox, and ***** out here, for what it's worth.


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## secuono

GPs are not a fighting dog, so unless those cougars scare easily, your horses and dog will be in danger. Akbash and other such breeds were bred for actually standing up to dangerous predators and not just barking at them. 
Any LGD can jump a 5ft fence, hot wire won't stop them, think sheep. That fur will insulate them and if they are chasing off a predator, even a dog that never escaped for fun, may jump out after it. 
My GP and all the ones I know are very people friendly, not what I wanted. But I was hoping her Maremma side would make her a bit more wary of them...nope. 

Also, you didn't mention if your horses are dog aggressive or not. My pony likes to harass other animals, my mare only likes dogs that are calm and give her space.


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## ParaIndy

Like I said, secuono, both of my GPs would attack pretty much anything if it was going after there goats. The older one has killed a big coyote that was trying to get two of our goats and was trying to get at a cougar once.


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## Celeste

I have a colleague that has a Great Pyrenees, and he is an excellent guard dog. He would fight anything that messed with his goat flock. I once knew a GP who was (ironically) named Killer. He was lazy and would not get up to walk across the field if a stray dog came in and stared chasing his goats.


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## Sliding Stop

Another thought - Get some Guinea hens. They're like feathered guard dogs.


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## GallopingGuitarist

My family has had 5 GP. Four of them were great! The one turned on my brother, but we should have known better than to get him in the first place because his dad was nasty as well. Lesson learned. 
Our female, Ruthy, that was still have (9 years old) would go with us kids anytime we took a horse out of the pasture. We rode 10, 12, 14 miles. One time we rode 24 miles (mostly at a high speed trot, canter, of gallop... our horses were in shape, and we gave them a half hour rest with water at the 12 mile point), that time the dog came along but she only made it 12 miles and then we went and got her with the truck later (she was in a friend's yard). I should mention that Ruthy got clipped by a car (they are stupid about chasing cars) when she was 3 and broke her pelvis. She just last year stopped going on rides with me, but still goes for 4 mile walks with mom (who walks quite fast). So what I am trying to say, don't discount the GPs for going on rides. The four of ours were/are wonderful with the kids (youngest now 3 1/2), and protective, but not overly so. We only saw Ruthy act aggressive once, and she never growled just jumped in between the person and Sara (2 at the time). 
As someone else mentioned, they aren't the best for obeying voice commands (though, we never did train ours, except, no jumping and no chasing chickens). I wouldn't recommend many of the other big guard breeds that are common for sheep guarding, the ones I have met and what I have heard is that they aren't all that good with people. 
That's my 5 cents. ;-) One is a bad penny, but the rest were jewels. (so far we lost two to cars, one to trappers (we assume, either that, he was stolen, or the wolves got him), one to 'lead poisoning' and still have the old girl. 
If you are planning to get one, look for for one with a broader head, those we found were less skittish. And make sure they were handled from birth.


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## toosexy4myspotz

An LGD is just that. They need to be raised and kept in the same perimeter fencing as their herds. GP are great and yes, they will attack if in need. They dont just stand around and watch something attack their herd. LGD are not ment to be buddy buddy with people. They are ment to protect livestock. They can get spoiled very easily and will steer away from their job at hand. Most everyone I know uses GP but they are kept out to pasture with the herds and are never aloud to leave their herd.


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## GallopingGuitarist

That's interesting. Our dogs have always been raised with the kids and the animals. They go out and protect the herd at night, then they will be in the yard for a sleep in the day. When we had two at a time, one would go out with the cows and horses at night, and the other would go out in the day. 
We have quite a few wolves and a couple cougars up where my parents are. My brother was out along the fence line, he found a bunch of wolf tracks, and then he found Ruthy's trail (quite well worn) from the yard out to the horses (they are the farthest from the house). I prefer a dog that is good with people and the animals. But, that is just my preference. I am all for being best friends with all the animals that we own. Except the cow that tries to kill anybody that milks her. She is the exception to my rule. 
Here is a site that my sister found when she first got her sheep last fall, and was looking into guarding animals. 
Livestock Guardian Dogs at Work ? Another Side of The Great Pyrenees
It's incredible what these dogs can do. They aren't just the lovable pets that a lot of people see them as. 
I just ask you to read the first page. Before I read it, I didn't know that the GP were that protective. And, they are around people a lot.
Our dogs are supposed to protect the farm and family. They have done that faithfully. And we have yet to lose an animal to predators (maybe the occasional chicken, because we had them free range out in the pasture, just getting locked up at night). 
We have lost cows, horses, and sheep, due to our own ignorance, sickness, and other people's stupidity (I had a horse get shot by hunters), but so far never to a coyote, wolf, bear, or cougar.


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## LisaG

I know a few people that have GP to protect sheep, and they're great guard dogs. They will chase down coyotes for miles.

I was having lunch at one farm, and the GPs were chilling out and getting pets. They seemed like big dopey teddy bears. Then the GPs started getting into the garbage, and we were warned not to go near them, as they might bite. 

So I don't know if I would take one camping. That seems like a potential disaster. And you'll also want to think about how you'll deal with one if it becomes aggressive towards people.

I guess the other thing I would add that I know a couple that have had GPs as pets on the farm. They seemed like great dogs, but both were run over. I think they get bored and start chasing cars (same thing can happen with collies, kelpies, etc... if they get bored).


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## Nightside

He is not the norm anymore but my German shepherd does an excellent job with the stock. He doesn't round anything up or chase. He quietly follows them and watches while they graze. The second I step outside, he's on my heel and following me in case I need him for anything. When I go inside, he goes back to sleeping with the horses. Only one of my mares ever tries to nip at them so he gives her the space she needs and all is well. His recall is excellent and he will spin right around and come back, even in mid squirrel chase. He's also never left the gate.









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## Foxtail Ranch

I have a donkey to protect my herd, and she does a great job. We have rattlesnakes, coyotes and neighbors dogs who run in a little pack. Dusty will holler if any critters come near her pasture. She stomps snakes. I even have no vermin in the barn, even tho my neighbor has skunks, raccoons and rats in his just 200 feet away from mine. 

Plus, she won't wander and she will live a long time so I don't have to replace her for years to come. She tolerates my dogs and loves children. Her only fault is eating wood and getting too fat as she is an air fern!
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