# URGENT: Aggressive Yearling



## Creampuff (Dec 1, 2010)

When we first received our 2-year-old pony, she was very affectionate and "cutesy." She was well broke (for experienced riders), but spent most of her day tied up while the other horses got used. We never got people with enough experience (that were of the right weight) to ride her. We've had her now for nearly a year. 

Unfortunately her behavior has taken a turn for the worst. After several barn hands decided to take disciplinary means into their own hands (going from smacking her neck and saying "NO!" to pinching her lip/neck and twisting her ear). Progressively her behavior went from that of a 2-year-old pony all the way to a hateful, malicious yearling. 

At first I had no issues out of her. While she was biting other people and trying to kick them (she even chased one man out of the area), she would walk to me with ears pinned and quickly ***** them to get a pet or to lick my palm, even though there was nothing there. 

While she still gave at least one person no issue, there was still hope. But then there's the hay guy; while unraveling the twine, I was shoulder-to-shoulder with him while we pulled it off the large round bale. Some horses anxiously ate off of it. As he passed the pony he rudely shoved her head away from the bale and we moved on -- putting me into her path. She landed a good bite on my shoulder, at which point I turned and yelled at her.

Had I smacked her the situation then would have turned dangerous. *It's when you reprimand this pony, even with a simple slap, that she will turn her rear towards you and make a blatant attempt to fire both barrels and connect.* Putting "Hay Guy" in this position was not what I wanted. 

Today, as always, I went out to do a wellness check (just a basic injury check). Pony approaches me. I pet and love on pony. Pony chases other horses away as I try to check them. Pony gets scolded. Since she wouldn't let another horse near me, I stood at a distance to check a gelding for any obvious injuries. As I stood there, with Pony's head at my side, I noticed she was turning away from me at an odd angle. I turn to look just in time to see a foot in the air and feel her hoof connect to the back of my thigh. 

I scolded her and she was fine, approaching me and "licking" (using her lip to rub my arm, as well as licking it). To my knowledge this is an "equestrian apology." 

Later, while I was trying to check a band over (a band of which she's a part, though the other mares disapprove of her and "bully" her as often as needed). Pony approaches me and proceeds to start moving her rear towards me. Sensing an incoming attack I moved a couple steps back, scolding her again. She continues twice more. Had my back _not_ been to a wall (literally), I'd have been less inclined to move away as I did. _"Whoever's feet moves first, loses._"

Before leaving the pony tried to kick another worker multiple times. Before she was a 2-year-old, now she's a Holy Terror. Any tips as to how we should handle her? I'm at a loss and have tried several things. I want to do some respect lunge work but I'm barred due to a coming Christmas party (this Saturday) which I "have to help prepare for." 

I no longer want to have to carry a lunge whip or crop (jokingly called the "Pony Paddle"), because it's when you smack her that Pony matches your aggression with a rear-end turn towards you. I would normally scold her and apply pressure to the bridge of her nose (similar to where some halters would cross over their noses). When her ears would come up I'd pet and love on her. But now I don't know if I should pay attention to her at ALL. It's a shame because she is _gorgeous_ and is a good riding horse; she hasn't been under saddle for some time and the last time she was worked in the round pen she chased two young ladies out of it. 

She's really gotten too dangerous, especially with children who like to pet and treat her and even children who work with the full-sized horses and enter the pasture. What else can I do about this?


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

First thing I would do is make sure that no one goes into that pasture unauthorized, or you move the pony to a more secure place where you can monitor who comes and goes, to make sure that everyone is as safe as possible. I would not ignore her when she goes to kick or bite at you, as that may cause her to start getting even more aggressive. I would make her move. Do it in a safe area to begin with, and have a lunge line or longer lead rope attached to her halter. As soon as she looks like she's moving her butt towards you, make her swing her butt away from you, and make her move her feet. As soon as she perks her ears up again, gets a soft eye, lowers her head, whatever her submissive cue is, let her stop. Keep doing that every time she tries to kick or bite you, until you get her respect back. Don't smack her with the rope, or whip, just swing the rope in big circles quickly, right next to her rear end, and that should get her to move away. When she is being good, show her lots of positive attention. It sounds like a combination of her getting tired of always being bullied and pushed around, and her being proactive about making sure that she can't get smacked or pinched, or whatever other means of reprimand were used. I wouldn't feed her treats by hand either for a while, cause that can cause her to be even more pushy in a bad way. She has unfortunately learned that if she's proactive, if she chases someone out of the stall or arena, or pasture or whatever, then they don't come back, and leave her alone, same with the biting and kicking. Now she needs to learn that those behaviors no longer get her left alone, instead they get her more work, in a non aggressive way if you can understand that, basically that she is no longer getting pain either from being bad. And as soon as she behaves thats when she gets all the positive happy attention. I'm sure others can come up with other ideas, and it may take trying several different things before you hit on the right one that gets through to her.


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## Creampuff (Dec 1, 2010)

Thank you, DressageBelle! I planned on using "Lunging for Respect," from an episode I took notes on from _Downunder Horsemanship_. But this party coming up puts a lot of stress on us and it's hard to find the time to work when the few hands we _do_ have are all available. 

I read up that when the horse shows like it's about to throw out an aggressive act to _love on it_, like Peppi le Pew (spelling?) and his girlfriend the black cat. Then the horse will really have no issue because, as it was said, the horse will "go to the other horses and say, 'I kicked her because she pet me.'" 

When I asked if it could be jealousy due to the other horses getting more "love" than she has this year, I was scoffed at and told that "horses don't have that sort of reasoning." (Yet the woman who told me this has a horse with severe jealousy issues.) I asked this because, walking through the arena with the pony close at my side, my friend was at the arena door and started to speak. The pony looked at me, looked at my friend, looked back at me, and proceeded to pin her ears and try to chase the friend. My friend, who is an experienced horsewoman, knew better than to move and swung her arms and yelled at the pony, who them moved away and returned to my side. 

That was a red flag; chasing horses away is one thing. But chasing _people_ who I'm not even within touching distance of? And then today when she tried to kick me _multiple_ times! I'm starting to feel like she's a lost cause and needs to "get lost," but I want to give her a much-needed chance to become that loving filly we bought a year ago. Not a malicious, deadly pony who hates all that come close. 

What I find odd is, before she connected a kick, I was scratching and petting her without issue. Her ears were up and she enjoyed the attention. After I moved to check another horse for injuries, she stood grumpishly at my side and less than a minute later launched the "surprise attack." Maybe she sees me as her herdmate and is trying to best me? Being the pony she is, I dare not smack her; simply because I don't want to be "one of _those_ people" to her, and because when you do smack her is when things escalate into severe danger.


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

I think that some if it is jealousy, and some of it is that I think she's tired of being bullied by people and horses alike, so she wants that good attention you give her, but goes about asking for it the wrong way. I highly recommend reading books by Richard Maxwell. He's a trainer in England, and I started using his techniques with my Arabian mare, and she has done awesome. He has written Unlock Your Horses Talent In 20 Minutes a Day, and Train Your Young Horse, as well as a few others. He also has a website as well. Richard Maxwell - ABOUT MAX


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## Creampuff (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanks again! I'll definitely look into this and I appreciate your advice. I hope to do a _lot_ of work with her this winter, both on her ground manners and under saddle. The woman who used to ride her had very loud, obnoxious hands (literally yanking on her reins) and I hope that softer, "more polite" hands will work with her as they did Creampuff (another mare I'm working with).


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

I hope so. Keep me updated and pictures of said horses would be awesome  I love seeing people's ponies in action.


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## Creampuff (Dec 1, 2010)

dressagebelle said:


> I hope so. Keep me updated and pictures of said horses would be awesome  I love seeing people's ponies in action.


It'd be a pretty strange shift from being BEHIND the camera! Haha. First I need to buy a new one, since my brother got the one I was using (Canon Powershot A460, took some amazing pictures with it . . .) stolen. :/ The one I'm looking at now is $150 at a local pawn shop. XD 

Hopefully I'll get some pictures of the pony and I so we can get some critique on the methods we're using, especially with body language. I could very well be sending her a mixed signal and not know it.


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## StormvaleQHStud (Dec 16, 2010)

have a read from Sylvia Scott Natural Horsemanship Training Sylvia Scott has a fair few pleas of help with vicious horses and I myself have used a few of them too with my qh yearling colt. She does a good job of explaining WHY they do it and HOW to fix it. Sometimes you think how on earth would that work? Even for me who is a Natural Horse Starter and problem re-trainer I was at whit's end with what to do when I brought Cloud home. His previous owner's now ex husband used to belt him over the face every single time he tried nipping which naturally only made him more sneaker and bite harder than before.... So much so that even with a close eye on him he still managed to sneak in a hard bite in very tender spots but i refused to hit him back knowing it makes most horses worse. I have dealt with a lot of problem horses from rearing striking tying up hoof trimming bolting etc but I hadnt come across one with so much intents to murder you sort of feel like my fella did.... So i looked it up online...... Sylvia went through the whole explanations of that its more so in a colts DNA (but also in every baby but comes across a stronger need in colts) to learn their games of tag which involve the rearing and biting as they are skills they themselves have to learn in the wild to protect their future heards from other stallions and predators. She advised another girl to send her horse away from her and wait for the Forgive me I'm sorry signs then ask them to come in.... Now I do that every single day with re training various things and imagine my surprise at how stupid I felt that I hadn't thought to do that with my little vicious baby!!!!!! I did and after just one day of doing that at his feed times even and he has not bit anyone since, he still attempts every so often with me testing to see if I will let him get away with it and everytime he tries he gets sent away again and tries again at a more elongated time. He has been so good I introduced him to our little cat and he sat there for 10 minutes just sniffing and behaving himself untill my cat started moving his legs lol then he thought they looked interesting enough to try to nibble... sent him away... let him come back in sniffed again and no attempts to bite! I am not saying this will work on every horse because I believe in changing my training for each and every individual horses needs. But it is worth a try. I do follow more of a Monty Roberts kind of style too..... Good luck and I hope she improves soon for you I know its hard seeing the differences though.


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## Creampuff (Dec 1, 2010)

StormvaleQHStud said:


> have a read from Sylvia Scott Natural Horsemanship Training Sylvia Scott has a fair few pleas of help with vicious horses and I myself have used a few of them too with my qh yearling colt. She does a good job of explaining WHY they do it and HOW to fix it. Sometimes you think how on earth would that work? Even for me who is a Natural Horse Starter and problem re-trainer I was at whit's end with what to do when I brought Cloud home. His previous owner's now ex husband used to belt him over the face every single time he tried nipping which naturally only made him more sneaker and bite harder than before.... So much so that even with a close eye on him he still managed to sneak in a hard bite in very tender spots but i refused to hit him back knowing it makes most horses worse. I have dealt with a lot of problem horses from rearing striking tying up hoof trimming bolting etc but I hadnt come across one with so much intents to murder you sort of feel like my fella did.... So i looked it up online...... Sylvia went through the whole explanations of that its more so in a colts DNA (but also in every baby but comes across a stronger need in colts) to learn their games of tag which involve the rearing and biting as they are skills they themselves have to learn in the wild to protect their future heards from other stallions and predators. She advised another girl to send her horse away from her and wait for the Forgive me I'm sorry signs then ask them to come in.... Now I do that every single day with re training various things and imagine my surprise at how stupid I felt that I hadn't thought to do that with my little vicious baby!!!!!! I did and after just one day of doing that at his feed times even and he has not bit anyone since, he still attempts every so often with me testing to see if I will let him get away with it and everytime he tries he gets sent away again and tries again at a more elongated time. He has been so good I introduced him to our little cat and he sat there for 10 minutes just sniffing and behaving himself untill my cat started moving his legs lol then he thought they looked interesting enough to try to nibble... sent him away... let him come back in sniffed again and no attempts to bite! I am not saying this will work on every horse because I believe in changing my training for each and every individual horses needs. But it is worth a try. I do follow more of a Monty Roberts kind of style too..... Good luck and I hope she improves soon for you I know its hard seeing the differences though.


 
Thanks, Stormvale! 

In the past week or so, Pony (her real name is actually _Socks_) has been "touch and go." She has gotten better about ignoring people in the pasture and not trying to charge them, and even better with me; she has yet to approach me since the accident. 

I also wouldn't suggest "hitting" anyone's horse. Then your horse isn't respectful, it's fearful. And, if it's like two of our horses (the pony and a gelding), they only get more upset and "vicious" after you hit them. I learned this when the gelding, who developed a kicking problem, would try to bite; I'd smack his neck and scold him (a quick and gruff "_Knock it off!_") only for him to turn his head away, pin his ears, and then come back for round two with more of a vengeance. 

I don't know what's been happening to this horse. One minute she's seeking out one of my friend in the pasture (the one person she's tried to mutilate more than once), and then the next she's just standing there giving us tired, apathetic looks. 

The vet speculated it was rank. She had been "bumped down" by another yearling filly not long ago, and the vet said she could be one of those horses who "just need the 'power' in the herd," and is trying to work her way back up -- starting with us. I've also noticed that Socks is now above the aforementioned filly yesterday while inspecting the herd. Perhaps the vet was right and she just wanted to be back in the "Top Hoss Band" (our little 'herd within the herd'). Though she isn't lead mare, she certainly hasn't been as bad. 

Only time will tell and I'll keep everyone updated.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Just how old is this equine? You say two and then yearling.

If the poor thing is indeed only two and spent the summer tied waiting for an appropriate person to ride her - she has a lot of reason to be naughty.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

You have been advised to drive the pony away from you when she misbehaves and that is what I would do, but if swinging the rope doesn't do it, wont you then have to lay it on her hiney?
Personally, if a horse tried to attack me several times, unprovoked, I would not have such kind thoughts as you do. There may be some horses that get more aggressive if you hit them, but it may also be that you need to be WAY more dominant to her. Not just a minor yelling or a smack, but HUGE response and keep at it even if she reacts back at you. It looks like she needs a very strong response. 
Question; how does she react when the other horses enforce their dominance over her? Does she accept a pinned ear glance as enough and walk off, or does she fight back until she can't match the other horse? How hard do the horses have to get to make her respect their space?

I might think of sepereating her from the herd for a bit. She may then become "needy" of a human companion and be more submissive in order to be allowed back into the little group.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Where on earth did you get the idea that what you are doing is 'Natural Horsemanship'? Natural Horsemanship performed right actually 'trains' a horse to be very respectful. Natural horsemanship is supposed to establish YOU as the herd leader and undisputed 'boss'. Done correctly, that is exactly what it does.

You have done everything wrong you have produced a very disrespectful and dominant horse that has trained YOU perfectly. The tail is wagging the dog here.

Let me go into detail and examine what you did and why it worked the way it did and explain what you should have done. 

_1) " Pony approaches me and proceeds to start moving her rear towards me. Sensing an incoming attack I moved a couple steps back, scolding her again."_

'He who moves his feet first, loses'! Pony threatened you and you capitulated. Pony has you trained to give ground to it. In your 'pecking order', you are clearly below this pony.

_2) " when you smack her that Pony matches your aggression with a rear-end turn towards you."_

Have you actually watched herd dynamics? How long do you think the lead horse in a herd would put up with that? 'Smacking' a horse only aggravates it. Trainers call it 'pecking' at a horse. Discipline should be swift and severe enough to be effective. Being 'effective' is not synonymous with being mean or abusive. Horses actually like those that interact with them from a position of strength and leadership. They have disdain for weak subordinates. You DO NOT 'love', 'buy', 'pet' or 'treat' a horse into liking you. You 'earn' their respect and they 'love' you for it. That's how they think and all of your petting and loving wasted. They actually HATE it when they do not respect you.

_3)_ "_She's really gotten too dangerous, especially with children who like to pet and treat her"_ 

I pretty well covered this one with #2. But, I will add, you can pet on a respectful horse. Many learn to like the 'scratches' they get much like mutual 'grooming' in a herd. But, a horse needs to be taught respect and to stay out of any person's space until 'invited' in before you start petting and scratching. I am not an advocate of treats. Few people know how to keep a horse respectful when they give treats. Treats are really for people and not horses.

_4) "I read up that when the horse shows like it's about to throw out an aggressive act to love on it"_

This just proves you can 'read' anything -- particularly on the internet. Some moron that never trained nice respectful horses had to have written that.

_5) "And then today when she tried to kick me multiple times! I'm starting to feel like she's a lost cause and needs to "get lost," but I want to give her a much-needed chance to become that loving filly we bought a year ago. Not a malicious, deadly pony who hates all that come close."_

This what you have made her into. If I were to write a manual on how to make a horse mean, I would just tell people to do exactly what you have done. You own it and she deserves to be 'fixed'. Thousands of horses have been shipped to slaughter because someone with good intentions but no horsemanship or horse psychology skills ruined them and made them vicious. I have trained horses full time for more than 50 years. I have taken in literally dozens of horses with the kind of background you gave this pony. They started out nice and turned mean. Many were headed to slaughter when I got them. Most of them re-trained successfully, but they needed a lot more force and pressure put on them than if they had been taught properly to respect people and their space in the first place. When I trained for the public, I would not take in spoiled horses like yours unless the owner agreed to come to several of the training sessions and let me train them along with their horse.

_6) "Being the pony she is, I dare not smack her; simply because I don't want to be "one of those people" to her, and because when you do smack her is when things escalate into severe danger."_

Please explain to me exactly what "one of those people" is? Again, smacking a horse is totally ineffective. It either turns into a game or makes things worse (as you have found). If you hit a horse or jerk a lead-rope or use any other form of punishment, it has to be severe enough to actually make the horse WANT to 'stop the behavior'. If you do not intend to MAKE the horse move its feet and do not intend to actually 'be in charge', then, you should not own one. This horse (or pony) has you trained. She has trained you let her be in charge.

_7) "I also wouldn't suggest "hitting" anyone's horse. Then your horse isn't respectful, it's fearful. And, if it's like two of our horses (the pony and a gelding), they only get more upset and "vicious" after you hit them. I learned this when the gelding, who developed a kicking problem, would try to bite; I'd smack his neck and scold him (a quick and gruff "Knock it off!") only for him to turn his head away, pin his ears, and then come back for round two with more of a vengeance. "_

Well, I am afraid you understand very little about how horses think and respond. This underscores the fact that you have spoiled, not only this pony, but other horses, too. If you strike a horse (not my favorite way of disciplining one, by the way) you do not make them fearful if you do it correctly. You do it severely enough to stop the behavior; then you go back and un-do the fear of the whip or rein or stick or whatever you used to spank the horse. For instance, if you spank a horse with a dressage whip for pushing into your space, always say a very firm "Ah!" when you do it. Then, to un-do any fear of the whip, you wave the whip around, strike the ground and go to the horse with it until the horse does not mind it at all. [This is the very basic 'approach and retreat' method of training and it is 100% effective.] Then rub him all over with the whip. Any horse will quickly learn when they have 'crossed' a line you have drawn and will soon 'back off' with just an "Ah!". 

I have 60 horses. Not one of them is afraid of me, I can walk up to and catch any one of them, they stand for shots and any other doctoring, they all move out of my way when I "smooch" to them and raise a hand, I groom and saddle them while they are eating, my will is theirs. THEY HAVE NO RULES THAT I HAVE TO FOLLOW! * I MAKE ALL OF THE RULES AT MY HOUSE!* I cannot even remember the last time one tried to nip or bite me. I have not been kicked at in years and cannot recall being kicked at by any horse I have had for a week or longer. I am their well-respected herd leader and they would follow me off of a cliff. I never have to hit any of them. I don't even have to say "Ah!" very often and that is usually for one laying an ear back at another horse when I am around. 

I have trained everything: from TBs on the track and off, Mules, Arabians (including a US National Top Ten, an endurance Champion and a Champion race horse named Kontiki), AQHA reining and cutting horses, Mustangs and hundreds of trail horses. I have shipped more than 25 trained horses to Europe and UK. This is not just an idea of how I think horses can be successfully trained -- It is a proven training program that has worked for decades to produce well-trained, well-mannered happy horses.

This is called effective horse training and I use all natural training methods. I NEVER use force to teach new things. I only use the smallest amount of force necessary to correct problems and behaviors (always in other people's horses). My horses are always willing and above all, HAPPY. Horses love structure and the positive environment of knowing exactly where they stand at all times. 

Just like the spoiled bratty child that is unhappy and miserable all of the time; the spoiled horse is miserable. Don't try to ever tell me that a horse with its ears back all of the time and acting aggressive is happy. I have too many happy horses.

I am sorry to be so long-winded, but I just feel compelled to explain to you how your pony went from the 'nice pony' you bought to the dangerous one she has become. If you actually read all of this and want to know more about how to handle specific situations, I will try my best to explain how to have a positive outcome for everyone.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Cherie,

I tried to say basically what you said, a bit more gently.
I agree with you 99%. The only difference is that there ARE horses that have such a high degree of "fight" in them (rather than the "I just want to get along in the herd" instinct, that they can become extremely aggressive if handled aggressively. This means that the trainer has to know 1. How to stay safe while making changes in the animals way of thinking. and 2. How to establish dominance without pushing the horse to the fight back stage.

It is rare. My old trainer had a mare that was so dangerous. She was beautiful and a wonderful horse under saddle, but she would exhibit the "I want to kill you" behaviour . My trainer worked with her so that the mare stopped doing that, but any other person, especially men, would be in danger of their lives in the round pen with this horse.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

tinyliny said:


> The only difference is that there ARE horses that have such a high degree of "fight" in them (rather than the "I just want to get along in the herd" instinct, that they can become extremely aggressive if handled aggressively. This means that the trainer has to know 1. How to stay safe while making changes in the animals way of thinking. and 2. How to establish dominance without pushing the horse to the fight back stage.


Very true. There are handful at both extremes. Some you cannot even think agressive with and then there are those you cannot let up for a second on them.

It does boil down to respect though. Handling an animal that out weighs me 10 times is not going to happen by force. I have to earn their respect.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Cherie said:


> I have trained horses full time for more than 50 years.


I am impressed, it sounds like you are still actively training and in your 70s.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

The only difference is that there ARE horses that have such a high degree of "fight" in them (rather than the "I just want to get along in the herd" instinct, that they can become extremely aggressive if handled aggressively.

Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/urgent-aggressive-yearling-73355/page2/#ixzz19SJA5BHR

At one time I also thought there were some horses that were too resistant and/or too reactive to effectively discipline. I have since re-schooled some very mean and fighting stallions and more than one mare and gelding that were attack minded. I re-schooled a 5 year old APHA (Paint) stallion that had attacked several people sending his last trainer to the hospital with a shattered femur. Had a bottom board not been missing from the trainer's round pen, he would have killed him. As it was, he never fully recovered from his injuries. I was this horse's last chance before they were going to put him down. I showed him at the Paint Nationals later that year in halter and Hunt Seat Pleasure. Anyone competent could ride him. 

At one time I had 10 stallions in my barn and was standing 6 of them to the public. Two of them had put people in the hospital. I cannot count how many horses I took in and re-trained that were headed for the killer pen when I got them and would have gone there if I had failed. I found a way to get through to all of them. 

That being said, re-training badly spoiled horses that have become attack minded, aggressive and dangerous is a lot like making sausage. It is not real pretty to watch. But, I have not found one that did not respond and did not become a horse that could be handled by any other competent person. A person is never going to be meaner or bigger, but I can be smarter and I can put one in a position where doing the right thing is not only easier, it is the ONLY option --- and I can make them like it.

As cheap as good horses have gotten, nowadays, I would not bother with many of them. I would just let them get on that last truck-ride. I have also come to know that there is a great deal of difference in the 'trainability' between different horses. I have come to appreciate horses that are easily trained, do not have a lot of inborn resistance and want to please people. These inherently 'nice' horses can still be spoiled, but they are not naturally aggressive and are much more 'forgiving' than others that jump on the slightest mistake made by their trainer/ handler. Many of the ones that become very aggressive toward people are also very dominant in a herd structure and are more difficult to train. 

I would say the pony in question is pretty nice. It has taken a year of poor handling to become this aggressive. That in itself tells me she is very 'fixable'. 

Oh! And "Yes!" I started training for the public very young. I have enjoyed every minute of it, but sadly, I am only able to ride on a very limited basis now. I still do a lot of ground schooling and prepare a lot of young horses for their first ride but someone else has to ride them. 

I have severe degenerative joint disease and both rheumatoid and osteoarthritis. I just cannot do it any more. I am selling all of my best cutting-bred horses at the January Shawnee Sale because I cannot ride one of them at all now. I last showed a reining horse 3 years ago. I have not been on my one stallion since then and did not breed a single mare to him this year.
​


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Cherie, I wish you would train me!! I would love to learn half of what you must know!


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## Creampuff (Dec 1, 2010)

mls said:


> Just how old is this equine? You say two and then yearling.


She's just turned 3. Under the watchful eye of my 2 bosses, I was told that the horse is a filly/yearling up until the age of 5, at which point it "graduates" to the "adult stage" (mare/stallion/etc.). 

And Cherie, *thank you*. I know that by moving my feet first I lost rank over this pony and I'm working on getting it back with her. She's highly aggressive to the other horses; just recently she attacked a young mare that was standing about 3-5 feet away from her for apparently no reason. The mare (named _Bit-O-Honey_) was simply relaxing not too far from our salt/mineral blocks and showed no signs of imposing behavior to receive the bites and chase that she got. 

By "one of those people," I meant the other workers at the barn who have notoriously untied her for grooming/feet picking and forced her (not allowing her to learn balance) to stand for her feet being picked, and all the while a second worker holds her, twisting one of her ears or "twitching" her lip. My boss and I speculate that it was these actions that caused her to get so mean. 

And the gelding, _Prince_, started to act dangerously after we (grudgingly) accepted very young volunteers with minimal/uncoordinated horsemanship experience. And _my_ issue with these horses is that their owners (a livery) say that when they misbehave to slap their neck/point of shoulder and say _NO!_; that was to avoid people taking disciplinary means into their own hands as the two girls did with this pony by twisting her ear and twitching her lip. As I said to my boss when we talked about it last night: "Most times you'd want to distract the horse, not cause it pain," simply because it would then associate such-and-such action with hurt. (Similar to as you said with the dressage whip.) 

I thank you _so_ much for your detailed "break down," because I literally have no other help from her legal owners and the other two more experienced workers are so high on themselves they don't help anyone else out. They simply tell me to take a "pony paddle" (a large leather crop) and smack at her with it, which as you said isn't very affective. My boss even recently told me how driving a horse away from you to "meet up" helps with it learning respect and safety with you. 

My boss is recovering from a recent case of Shingles and has had, literally, no time to work with any of the horses. I watched one trainer (it was on RFD-TV, I'm not sure if it was Chris Cox, Dennis Reis, Ken McNabb, or someone else) on the television who said that you act dramatically at certain points. He said something to the effect of, "when the horse acts silly, you act sillier." I don't know how true that is and I can't recall at this moment exactly what it does. (It very well could be stashed away in notes I've taken on these trainers.) 



*tinyliny*, to answer your questions: 

_*How does she react when the other horses enforce their dominance over her? Does she accept a pinned ear glance as enough and walk off, or does she fight back until she can't match the other horse?*_

There is one young mare (the aforementioned _Bit-O-Honey_) that she seems to challenge the most. With Bit, it would resort to an all-out brawl until one (usually the pony) walks away. When it comes to the other horses throwing some pinned-eared glares, she normally pins hers and walks away like a temper-tantrum-inflicted teenager.

_*How hard do the horses have to get to make her respect their space?*_

Most of our other horses, ranging from 10 on up, won't have to try very hard. For the most part she sticks with her little "herd" (containing 1 gelding, Bit, Bit's mother, and 2 other, older mares). The pony is the youngest of our entire 24-head herd. 

I also apologize to all of you for my delayed response; I had computer issues for the past few weeks that, until today, went unsolved. 
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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Creampuff said:


> She's just turned 3. Under the watchful eye of my 2 bosses, I was told that the horse is a filly/yearling up until the age of 5, at which point it "graduates" to the "adult stage" (mare/stallion/etc.).


A female horse is a filly until it turns 4 - or 5 - depending on who you talk to. However, a yearling is a yearling.


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## redbrew (Jan 10, 2011)

*Biting yearling - rescue horse*

Cherie,

I'm a long way from the rolling hills of Oklahoma now, but I grew up there and went to OBU in Shawnee! I really enjoyed reading your posts. You have a world of experience and I would love to hear more!

I am currently volunteering for a horse rescue. I had a horse as a kid, spend some time on a ranch as a young adult riding often, but haven't owned/worked with horses in 20 years. Anyway, this is a start-up rescue less than 7 months old. We have thin budget and work force. I am responsible for feeding one barn with an old gelding, two mares with colts, and one yearling colt. The yearling just lost her stall mate (another yearling) to adoption. But she is our problem child and we are hoping to get her adopted soon. However...

Sigh...she is a _constant_ biter (not nipping for treats, which we do rarely anyway, but teeth bared head stretched way out to get you) and turning her butt to kick almost as often, if biting doesn't work. I have not spent a lot of time with her, I do not know her history prior to October (when she was about 8 months old when taken in) but I have this opportunity now that she is alone in her stall/pasture area (she shares a barn so she has company, just fenced apart from the more dominant moms and old man) and I am there feeding every day. 

My question for you is do horses have definable drives, like dogs do? For example, dogs have ball, food, and pack drive. I had an extremely aggressive puppy (fearful, but also bad breeding) and had to learn in depth about pack structure, behavior, and drive. I'm teachable and want to do a good job by this horse so her chances of adoption to a forever home are increased. I want to give this high spirited girl a chance to learn her manners and as a result go to a good home. Right now she is in that stage where I'd almost be afraid to send her home with someone, not knowing, given her aggression, how they will handle her and if they might ruin her at a crucial learning time. On the other hand, I know she needs real time spent with her which she just won't get in our rescue situation. I can do 20 minutes a day individual with her.

SO ... are there some good processes I can use with her before/during feeding time? I was thinking of using a lead rope to swing around to keep her back from me (I have not been doing this and she does rush in to see what you are doing), making her give me some space. Do I also make her wait to eat until I let her come back in? Do I stand nearby and make her tolerate my presence when eating, driving her away if she tries to bite or turns to me (she does!) or only work her before feeding her? Because this is rescue situation, I only get that small amount of time once a day with her. I do not want to mishandle her in relation to food. She may have been starved/abused as a much smaller colt, but don't know. She does bite on the feed bowl after clearing it out, would there be teething issues as well? She should be around 11 months old, give or take. She has stood for me to be brushed after being grained. I've been told she is pretty good with a halter being led around. Should I put a halter on and leave it on? (I know my dog's training collar acts as a reminder and she behaves better with it on even when not on leash).

Obviously dogs can't be compared to horses, that isn't what I mean. Just looking for similiar bits of knowledge to help me refresh my brain and do a good job with these horses.

My profile pic is of the horse in question. Her name is Millie (sometimes called Millie the B, meaning she is a you know what!) ;0)

I am WIDE open to suggestions, books, websites, etc.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Hi Redbrew, Where do you live now? I am just 55 miles straight south of Shawnee at Sulphur. I have to be in Shawnee this weekend with 7 horses at the Triangle Sale. I probably won't have much time to be on the computer for the next 5 or 6 days, but I will try to get something to you.

If you do not know how socialized this filly is, why don't you turn her out with the old alligators (that is what I call old mares). Nothing teaches a young horse how to have proper respect better than a couple of old alligators. Just turn her out during the day and put her up in the evening to eat. Horses are much easier to handle and teach when they are living in a herd situation. They learn manners the natural way. Then, they just have to learn to respect a person like they already respect the herd leader. 

I think you are being way to easy on her. People just do not understand that they are doing no favors when they let a horse be aggressive like she is. They are not made of china and they do not break. They are always sorting out where they are in the herd pecking order. So every aggressive move toward a human herd member must be met with instant consequences. You cannot hesitate, because whatever you accept, is what you are teaching the horse to do. . Every single time you interact with a horse, you are training it --- if not to do something better, then it is learning to do something worse.

The one thing you do not want to do is be 'pecking' and 'nagging' at a horse. They hate it and they never learn to respect it. They just get ill tempered, lay their ears back and get more aggressive. You need to get after one hard for aggression and then leave them alone. You do not need to be petting and treating one or fussing with it. They are not dogs. They like you better if you keep your relationship more 'business-like' and efficient. Expect perfect manners, accept nothing less and then leave them alone. 

I prefer spanking one hard for turning its butt. I do not mean tap or peck -- I mean spank hard. I only want to do it once so I want the horse to know it was the worst mistake of its life. Have you seen an old alligator mare take after a young one and run it off for a herd infraction? She does not just 'tap or peck' on one. They think they are going to die. That is what works best.

I do not hit them for trying to bite. I prefer to have a halter and lead on one when I am around it. So, I catch one first and then handle it if I think they may need some instruction. If one lays an ear back-- let alone bares its teeth -- I jerk the lead-rope hard 5 or 6 times. Then I take the horse out into the open and back it up roughly, make it move its shoulder over and away from me both directions, back it up some more and then stop and act like nothing at all has happened. I do not pet or play with them. I expect them to stand at attention and watch my every move. I 'smooch' every time I ask it to move back or over and reinforce it with a lead-rope. This way, I am conditioning the horse to move when I smooch. A respectful horse moves back or over when you take a step toward it and smooch. That is all the pressure you should have to put on a horse that has proper respect for its handler.

If I had to spank a horse to make it face me, then I take the end of a long lead-rope and flip and flop it all over the horse until it stands still and understands that the rope did not get them but that their behavior did. Then I back the horse up two or three more times. 

If a horse tries nipping and fussing at me or the lead-rope, the perfect solution is to hold a nail in your hand with about an inch of it sticking out and let the horse run into it. I fixes nipping without making a game out of it or getting a horse to get head-shy and dodge your hand. As a matter of fact, it takes a pretty good while for me to get a horse over dodging every time I move my hand when someone has tried to stop it from nipping.

Good manners means that a horse stays out on the end of a lead-rope when you say "Whoa!". It only approaches you when you tug on the lead and smooch and 'invite' it into YOUR space. It moves back or away from you when you ask it to. It does not bring its head around and reach toward you when you stand next to it. It will stand still while you brush it, comb its tail, while you pick up its feet, give it a shot or while you throw a blanket on it. They just know that what you want to do is the way it is.

For some reason, when you get a horse well-mannered like this, they WANT to be your best friend. They will follow you anywhere at a respectful distance and are happy for any interaction you chose to have with them. They just know that they are not allowed to initiate contact with you --- just like they do not call the shots in a herd of alligators. A respectful horse is a happy horse. Their ears are up and 'working'. They acknowledge everything you say and do. 

I know I am leaving a bunch out, but when you do it all of the time, it is just second nature. I cannot remember that last time I had a young horse try to nip me or had one lay an ear back at me. They all like me, come to me and wait for me to feed or catch them or ???? They are never afraid of me, but they sure don't mess with me.

Hope this helps.


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## redbrew (Jan 10, 2011)

Cherie,

I'm in Spokane, Washington (just on the border of WA and Idaho). My parents are in the OKC area though and lots of cousins in Bixby (Tulsa). We moved up here 5 1/2 years ago and really love it. All four seasons, not a lot of flea/tick/mosquito problems, and surrounded by foothills and tons of water. It's hard to beat if you don't mind the winters. 

Your post was very helpful. The more you say, the more I'm able to sort of put the picture together in my head. What you describe is very much like what I had to do to establish pack leadership with my aggressive dog. She had to be confined to her crate and only interacted with when necessary (bathroom breaks and exercise) for a period of time (some dogs it can be just two weeks, mine took much longer). There was no grooming, petting, or other snuggly-wuggly business. This worked into understanding that as pack leader she was ignored most the time unless I chose to interact with her and then it was strictly business and never on her terms. I had to be firm but aloof...not unkind but pretty detached during this time. And there was no funny stuff like taking her food away after giving it to her (a common suggestion for food aggressive dogs) or loud bangs on her crate if she barked (another very common suggestion). The training I followed came from a guy named Ed Leerburg who has been training police dogs for 20 plus years - and his advice is the only advice I would follow for handling aggressive dogs, because he CLEARLY understands their psychology, the pack behavior, etc. So I definitely *get* what you are saying about the difference in picking at the horse with little corrections and lack of confidence rather than simply issuing the appropriate correction and moving on. 

Have you considered making your knowledge available in book form??? 
I'd love to head up THAT project! ha ha. I'm quite serious ;0))

Anyway, thank you so much for taking the time. It does really help. It's hard to wrap the head around it all, but I'll try to practice in my mind and be more prepared with her tomorrow. I'll also speak to the rescue owner tomorrow about turning her out with the mares and go from there. 

THANK YOU!


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## redbrew (Jan 10, 2011)

Millie the B update: We opened up her pasture with the other horses and she is getting along. She doesn't bother the mares or their colts and the old man tolerates her in the stall area so they can both be warm/inside, but he does not let her eat (he'll let the younger colts if they keep a distance) so he does a lot of keeping her in her place. She gets fed, just back in her stall when the other horses are at the feeder. I'm going to get a halter for her as soon as I can so I can start working her with being handled. Thanks again Cherie! It was great to see her immediately being put in her place by the other horses when she tried to be pushy. Definitely good for her and my barn boss is happy about the progress too.


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