# Horse pulls while on longe line



## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

When my son has our horse Casper on the longe line, he has a hard time because Casper pulls hard. I do not have this problem...I'm not sure if it's because Casper respects me more, or if I'm stronger/heavier and the pulling isn't as much to me (or both). 

I've started using a stud chain under the chin which works perfectly. My son never pull or jerks; it just prevents the horse from pulling as hard. However, all of the things I'm reading here are freaking me out about stud chains. We run it through both side rings under the chin and then snap the chain to itself, similar to the way that an Arabian show halter works (only with a regular chain & halter of course). 

Is this a good solution or is there a better way to teach Casper to be more gentle? We never use a stud chain otherwise and my son can handle him just fine.


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

Is it necessary to lunge Casper? It may be better for you to be the one to lunge if it is needed for warm up before your son works him. It may be that your son doesn't give the right body language and cues to lunge so he is getting push back from Casper. Maybe a knowledgeable person can watch and advise? It is better to not lunge at all than to do it incorrectly in my opinion.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I use a stud chain run under the chin, to teach any horse that pulls, to keep slack in the lunge line.
I hook it up as is done, showing a stock horse at halter, changing hook up with direction.
You run it through the near side bottom ring of the halter, under chin, through off side bottom ring and then snap it to top ring on that side, making sure that the stud shank is long enough to apply no pressure when the horse is giving correctly.( ie loose ) 
If the horse pulls, one quick correction, has the horse give, and a soon as he does, he gets slack again, thus instantly rewards himself.
Used in this manner, it is a great tool, as I don't want a horse to ever lean on that lunge line, and learn to be light, keeping slack. It is like using spurs correctly, as it only comes into play when the horse does not respond lightly to that lunge line alone
If you always keep chain pressure, then that is when a stud shank is used incorrectly. Used correctly, it just has a horse learn to respect that lunge line, and not lean, let alone pull against it


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Stud chains have a purpose but lunging is not one.

He's not necessarily pulling to be bad. My gaited horse that is relatively new to lunging pulls a lot but he's really just unbalanced.

I would also just ask why it's necessary for your son to lunge Casper? If he wants to learn (I don't know his age..) he should do it as a lesson or something, otherwise you should just do it. A child lunging always is iffy to me.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yogiwick said:


> Stud chains have a purpose but lunging is not one.
> 
> He's not necessarily pulling to be bad. My gaited horse that is relatively new to lunging pulls a lot but he's really just unbalanced.
> 
> I would also just ask why it's necessary for your son to lunge Casper? If he wants to learn (I don't know his age..) he should do it as a lesson or something, otherwise you should just do it. A child lunging always is iffy to me.



Disagree. It does have ause lunging, used correctly.

If you ever lunge a young horse, where he has to be 100% on not challenging that lunge line, then he needs to be taught the respect to never lean or pull on that lunge line, 
I have lunged green horses at shows, where you not only have the excitement of that show environment, but several young horses being lunged in that arena, before the show, with some riders along the rail, and if your horse pulls, can be a serious wreak!
Does not mean you always need to use a stud shank, once that horse lunges with respect, and same as teaching a horse that is not respectful in leading, using a stud shank, until he becomes respectful
On a broke horse, you can also lunge off the inside ring of the snaffle
If you can't keep a horse totally respectful while lunging, and not leaning, don't lunge
If a horse learns to pull, then not only is that not a safe thing, as he can learn to pull away, but if a horse pulls on that lunge line, with the handler pulling back, the head is tipped towards that person, causing shoulder to drop and hip to pop out of lead , causing a horse to cross fire at the canter. This bad habit can carry over to riding, SO DO NOT LUNGE a horse IF you can't prevent him form pulling
I'm not going to ask why this horse needs to be lunged, or if he needs to be lunged, as that is a separate topic!

Just because a horse is green, is no reason for letting him learn bad habits, and pulling on that lunge line, is a bad habit, same as pulling when being led!
Lunging is not just a way of working off excess energy, as that is for turnout, and lunging itself has to be a work/learning session, thus have expectations
If you can't lunge a horse correctly, so he is respectful, don't lunge him!


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I think it was you who showed photos of your children....they are pretty young and small in stature yet aren't they?
It is not an excuse for "pulling", but there is pulling and then_ there is pulling....._

No horse in free movement moves on a continual arc of their body..._it is unnatural._
They do arc their body then straighten it then arc again...
Lunging is not a true natural movement for them on a small diameter circle for a extended period of time.
Any horse free can run a circle once or twice, after that they usually go straight and that circle is _not _small.... at least that is how my horses are, run & play with each other.

Making a horse lunge on a line...how long is that line? 30', 40', 50', 60' or larger???
What speed/gait is the horse moving in and how long a time are you making the horse lunge for?
All those things must be taken into consideration in my mind.
To short a line length and the arc is magnified in difficulty, enhancing the pull factor.
To fast a gait and the horse will pull some keeping balanced...
To long a time and fatigue can be setting in and then the real tug and pull happens as the horse can struggle to remain balanced in that arced position...

I would stop with the stud chain while lunging....the continual pressure exerted is not fair to Casper who may not be doing anything wrong but being disciplined and shanked with every step he takes as that line jiggles with his footfall...
Till you get this straightened out, you, _as the adult,_ and better trained horse handler should lunge Casper if he really needs that.
_Do you need a stud chain to control the horse while lunging??? _
 
And absolutely, the horse can be playing games and pulling against your son and his small weight that the horse knows you as "leader" will not tolerate...
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo.._


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Smilie said:


> Disagree. It does have ause lunging, used correctly.
> 
> If you ever lunge a young horse, where he has to be 100% on not challenging that lunge line, then he needs to be taught the respect to never lean or pull on that lunge line,
> I have lunged green horses at shows, where you not only have the excitement of that show environment, but several young horses being lunged in that arena, before the show, with some riders along the rail, and if your horse pulls, can be a serious wreak!
> ...


Smilie I do agree with you and with your first post. Just not sure that it is appropriate in this application.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

This is an example of the respect you want, lunging. No, the horse is not being lunged with a chain, as he was taught that respect. This is ayearling lunge line class, where the handler gets so much time to show that young horse at all three gaits, both directions. This is also a yearling stud

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4PABvUc6TI


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree, it might not be appropriate in this application, and I did not watch any video/pics of Casper being lunged, but just gave how it is used correctly, and it certainly does not include constant pressure of that chain, nor someone on the end of that lunge line that does not know how to use it correctly

Far as lunging itself, I don't use it much, esp on a horse that is broke. I use it some when first bitting up a horse, before riding, and just enough, so I can lunge a green horse at a show the first few times
When I fitted up young horses for halter, I did not use lunging, as that is hard on young joints. I mainly ponied them, with lunging them just enough, again, so I could lunge them at a show, after they were stalled all night, before theirclass


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Huh, I had no idea lungeing was so controversial. At our lessons they always have us lunge for a bit if we are the first lesson of the day. Even our BO (who we lease from) said to lunge a bit before riding. And everyone that I see riding at the lesson barn (much larger) always lunges first. The purpose is to warm the horses up a bit and get out any of the crazies.

So, now that you know that lunging is something we have been taught to do, I'll address the other questions. My son is 11 and is smallish. I do watch him and I think his body language is good. I am not an expert but he has done lunging at his lessons under the guidance of his trainer as well. 

I was under the assumption that it would be good for him to form that rapport with his horse before riding...I have him do as much of the getting ready as he can, which is currently wrapping legs/bell boots, putting the saddle & pad on (I do the girth), grooming, and lunging. The bridle is tough because he's short. 

So, maybe the question should really be, should my son be doing the lunging before he rides? Good point about the chain pulling with every stride. What if I got a rope w/out a chain and just put the rope through?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

A broke horse should not need lunging, to warm up, regardless of what many lesson barns and people do!
You can warm a broke horse up, just fine, doing suppling exercises under saddle!
We ride in the mountains,with horses tied up all night, then just saddled up an ridden out, after being fed, of course!
You will never see reiners or working cowhorse people, warming up horses by lunging
I never lunge even my experienced pleasure horses at shows-just get on and warm them up under saddle-not on the rail, but on suppling exercises done off the rail


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Smilie said:


> A broke horse should not need lunging, to warm up, regardless of what many lesson barns and people do!
> You can warm a broke horse up, just fine, doing suppling exercises under saddle!
> We ride in the mountains,with horses tied up all night, then just saddled up an ridden out, after being fed, of course!
> You will never see reiners or working cowhorse people, warming up horses by lunging
> I never lunge even my experienced pleasure horses at shows-just get on and warm them up under saddle-not on the rail, but on suppling exercises done off the rail


Huh. So, if the horse seems a little frisky, should I get on first and ride him around a bit, doing some of the suppling exercises? (which I have to go Google now). Or, should my son, who has only been riding about 6 months, be riding the calmer of our two horses instead? Our other horse is lazy and ploddish and even keeping him at the trot takes work. 

I guess I've just been going along with what our lesson barn teaches because I figure they know better than I do. I grew up with horses, but we never did formal things. Grab them from the pasture, MAYBE put a bridle on, definitely not a saddle, and go. I did fun shows, barrels, trails, etc. but never anything fancy. I'm sure I did a lot of dumb things, but honestly, it was nice being so ignorant about it all, because then I wasn't second-guessing every single little thing!! 

I'm so thankful you are all here to so graciously answer all of my dumb questions!


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Disclaimer: I am not a trainer, have never shown (seriously, have been to a fun show or two). So should probably keep my mouth shut here.

Generally I combine tacking and saddling, with a little on-line work tightening the cinch.

I move the horse around on a circle or two, tighten a notch. Move the other way, tighten a notch. Throw in a couple hind and fore yields somewhere in there, check and tighten.

I feel this gets the horse and I in tune with each other as well as the getting the saddle seated and tightened comfortably.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Does the way you do up the chain and fastening it back to the lead leave a loop in the chain under the chin that a horse could put his foot through if he puts his head down? That would worry me. Your son may not be able to stop him from putting his head down as your son is young and small.
Your idea of putting a non chain longe rope under the chin may work better for you. Or until your son is an little older maybe just longe the horse yourself.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I like to use a lunge caveson as the line comes from th front of the nose making it hard for a horse to pull against it.


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Woodhaven said:


> Does the way you do up the chain and fastening it back to the lead leave a loop in the chain under the chin that a horse could put his foot through if he puts his head down? That would worry me. Your son may not be able to stop him from putting his head down as your son is young and small.
> Your idea of putting a non chain longe rope under the chin may work better for you. Or until your son is an little older maybe just longe the horse yourself.


I really doubt it...it's pretty tight. I am not sure I could get my hand through there. However, I do worry about the line getting slack and the horse stepping on it.


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## SeaBreezy (Jun 29, 2012)

I'm a bit confused. If your son has a trainer who teaches him how to lunge, then why hasn't he/she addressed the pulling issue and taught your son how to deal with it? 

Also, how does your son feel about it? Does it worry him or is he all for lunging? I'd take his feelings into consideration because honestly, for a small 11 year old boy, I don't feel like lunging is necessary unless he wants to do it. 

I think a lot of people use lunging as a crutch to, like you said, 'get the crazies out' before they get in the saddle. If there are any 'crazies' in there, then it makes more sense to me to deal with them under saddle anyway. So that way you can correct them and not have to deal with them in the future.

I'm not against lunging at all. I just view lunging as a supplement to riding. It shouldn't be a necessary precursor, in my opinion.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

LOL, I never thought that I would be an advocate of lunging before riding then I bought Fergie! I choose to lunge her for a few minutes before I get on, she bucks, runs, motorbikes, at this stage I prefer to let her get it out of her system before I climb on.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I do not lunge prior to riding either. I just saddle up and if for some strange reason my gelding is acting the fool while grooming and saddling I'll correct him right then and there. Takes care of any 'crazies'

Also one persons crazies is another persons forward walk down the trail.


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

SeaBreezy said:


> I'm a bit confused. If your son has a trainer who teaches him how to lunge, then why hasn't he/she addressed the pulling issue and taught your son how to deal with it?


We don't take lessons on our own horses. The horses @ lessons don't pull while lunging. However, they do use the stud chain while lunging, always.


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

sarahfromsc said:


> Also one persons crazies is another persons forward walk down the trail.


Haha you're right! I personally don't mind a horse that is energetic and a bit prancy. But my son is a new rider and I'm just not sure how he'll deal with the unexpected. He's ridden through a small bucking incident and once there was a little take-off when a horse outside kicked a barn door and spooked his horse, and stayed on both times, so maybe I underestimate him. One thing I don't like about his lessons is the horses are so well behaved and push-button-ish that he really isn't learning to deal with misbehaviors much.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

My advice given your situation (short of making drastic changes- this is the "easy" version I guess. I would personally just make some changes) would be to take the lunge line run it thorough the bit ring on the inside, over the poll, and snap it on the outside bit ring. I also ask why the instructors can't work on this if he has taken lessons.


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Yogiwick said:


> My advice given your situation (short of making drastic changes- this is the "easy" version I guess. I would personally just make some changes) would be to take the lunge line run it thorough the bit ring on the inside, over the poll, and snap it on the outside bit ring. I also ask why the instructors can't work on this if he has taken lessons.


Without the chain I'm assuming? 

He doesn't have problems @ lessons as we don't do lessons on our own horses.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I would do it without the chain though even if done with the chain it won't make a difference (assuming the chain is short and isn't running over the poll itself).

I understand that but why not? It's good to take lessons on your own horses. In fact better from the sounds of the situation. Do both. Say "hey x, for our lesson next week I was wondering if my son could work on Casper a little, we've been having some trouble with lunging"


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Yogiwick said:


> I would do it without the chain though even if done with the chain it won't make a difference (assuming the chain is short and isn't running over the poll itself).


Oh, the POLL. I didn't read that correctly. That is a good idea that I could try w/out a chain. Our chain is really long I think so it would go over the poll.



Yogiwick said:


> I understand that but why not? It's good to take lessons on your own horses. In fact better from the sounds of the situation. Do both. Say "hey x, for our lesson next week I was wondering if my son could work on Casper a little, we've been having some trouble with lunging"


Oh they are fine w/ you trailering in your horse. It's just that we don't have a trailer. Maybe in the summer I'll have my friend take us to lessons sometimes. Also, our horses are not fancy horses, and our barn is very fancy. They show at the national level. Does that matter?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

NO WAY whatsoever should that matter. If it did I would recommend never going there again!!

However, I didn't realize..for some reason I assumed your horses were boarded at that same barn. That makes a lot more sense! I would at least talk to the instructor and ask for advice, there may be something they can work on in the lessons that may help carry over.

Since they are at your house and you don't need to follow barn rules I would say just skip the lunging! (or you lunge)


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Here's a google pic of the setup. Just snap the end to the other bit ring.










A little more control and oomph without worrying about the chain and "too much oomph". Unless I'm lunging a very quiet well behaved horse I always use that setup. Works in a halter or bridle (though I would recommend a bridle for this situation).


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Yogiwick said:


> NO WAY whatsoever should that matter. If it did I would recommend never going there again!!
> 
> However, I didn't realize..for some reason I assumed your horses were boarded at that same barn. That makes a lot more sense! I would at least talk to the instructor and ask for advice, there may be something they can work on in the lessons that may help carry over.


Oh they've never said anything about it mattering...that barn just seems so fancy. It would feel weird to me to haul our horse there, but that is very likely my own personal hangup. 

And, it IS confusing, but our horses are boarded at the barn of their owner, near where we live. Our lessons are at a different barn about 30 minutes away. 

Thanks for the visual on the line setup!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I'm sure it's fine, but I get what you mean. As long as your horse is UTD, healthy, and has a Coggins then no reason they shouldn't be allowed in if trailer ins are OK.

Do you own your horses or lease?

No it's fine, not confusing, just my assumptions lol.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Of course, kid safety is always first, but when my sons were young, I gave them broke horses to ride, ones that were perfectly fine, never lunged before riding, as I had ridden those horses enough years to make them 'broke'
I also wonder about barn that 'always uses a stud shank to lunge horses.
In My humble opinion, that shank is a temporary way to lunge a horse that pulls, to fix him, and that chain should NEVER be tight all the time nEVER!
There is absolutely no way to have a horse stick a foot through it, with the exception being, a SLIGHT CHANCE, if you allow your horse to go along with his nose on the ground, but even then, that stud shank has no more chance of getting a foot through, than that bottom part of the halter, but if you allow your horse to go along sniffing the ground, why even bother with a stud shank?
This is what I would prefer, concerning a horse being 'too frisk for a kid
Get the kid a horse that is more broke
Make sure the horse has lots of turn out
Get on and ride the horse first, if he needs to be tuned up
A horse that 'needs' to be lunged, before a kid can ride, is not a kids horse
If I had a horse, past the stage of being a green horse, and I had to lunge him every time before I rode him, then something is wrong with my breeding program, training program, or both!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yogiwick said:


> Here's a google pic of the setup. Just snap the end to the other bit ring.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 You are lunging off the bit, and that set up is common, English.(lunge line run over poll, thus also having poll pressure. Hardly 'mild', even though no stud shank!
I consider lunging off the bit, more severe than using a stud shank, run under the chin, and a halter!
I do lunge broke horses off of the inside ring on the snaffle, without running line over poll, but how can you consider that a milder setup than lunging off a halter and stud shank???
In addition, you are using a cavasson, with that snaffle fairly tight (wrinkles )That is alot more oomp !


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Oh, the POLL. I didn't read that correctly. That is a good idea that I could try w/out a chain. Our chain is really long I think so it would go over the poll.

DO NOT run the chain over the poll. THat is very severe, and acts like a nerve line.
I knew one idiot that recommended to one of my friends to tie a horse that way, who halter pulled, and that horse dropped to his knees when that chain applied pressure over the poll. There are some very sensitive nerves there.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

The best way to lunge, IMOP, is using one of those bit connectors or using a cavesson. If you have neither, lunge in a halter.

I personally don't mess with a chain, so can't comment there.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

The horses I show have less turnout exercise than my horses at home which are out 24/7. I don't longe my horses at home typically but do ones that are are in training/ showing . Horses are longed for excercise & get any extra energy out but expected to behave on line :wink: I use a chain wrapped around the nose band on halter. It provides a bit of bite for more control & prevents leaning on line.


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Get on and ride the horse first, if he needs to be tuned up
> A horse that 'needs' to be lunged, before a kid can ride, is not a kids horse
> If I had a horse, past the stage of being a green horse, and I had to lunge him every time before I rode him, then something is wrong with my breeding program, training program, or both!


Well the BO said to lunge him a bit first so I do. Maybe next time I ride I'll try riding w/out lunging and see what happens. He is turned out 24/7 (with a walk-in shelter). Sometimes he seems a little frisky walking in the barn but I've never tried just getting on. The paddock he's in is maybe an acre, but it's so rough ride now due to considerable rain/mud and now it's frozen. I think it would be hard for him to do much more than walk in there. Maybe that adds to his friskiness. 

Due to conflicting opinions here I think if I do lunge I'll be doing it from now on w/ just the halter and no chain. My son doesn't love doing it so I'm sure he'd rather groom my horse for me while I either lunge or ride his. 

We do lease so I could easily switch horses for him, but we do really like his horse. Before doing anything rash, I think we will continue with our current setup. Like I said, we do have a very gentle second horse that he could switch to for a bit. 

Thanks all for the tips!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Smilie said:


> You are lunging off the bit, and that set up is common, English.(lunge line run over poll, thus also having poll pressure. Hardly 'mild', even though no stud shank!
> I consider lunging off the bit, more severe than using a stud shank, run under the chin, and a halter!
> I do lunge broke horses off of the inside ring on the snaffle, without running line over poll, but how can you consider that a milder setup than lunging off a halter and stud shank???
> In addition, you are using a cavasson, with that snaffle fairly tight (wrinkles )That is alot more oomp !


Yes that is the go to for English.

Either way if you are lunging with a bridle you are lunging off the bit no?

I like that because it's balanced. You don't have a piece of metal flopping around nor is the halter/bridle pulled (you can do this with a halter as well..). The reason I suggested this method is because if the horse does not pull a large flat piece of rope really isn't going to put a ton of pressure on the horse. It's just easier and more foolproof in novice hands. Horse releases pressure releases. There will be constant pressure with the chain (though light). No more pressure than on a halter unless the horse pulls, then pressure is primarily on the poll, as it would be in a halter. I'm assuming the OPs son has the basics of lunging down or he wouldn't be doing it, hence he knows not to pull on the horse for no reason and if the son makes a goal to keep the line "light" then the horse can choose to have pressure or to release pressure.

I don't know the OPs set up but from her picture she rides western and as such I'm assuming has no cavesson though I can't comment on how she adjusts her bit!

I would not use ANY chain set up with a bridle.

ETA- I did not realized you leased. I was just wondering how much authority you had in making changes. You obviously want to keep the owner/BO happy!


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

I think if the Bo has asked you to longe the horses first you should be doing that especially now as you say the ground outside is frozen and lumpy so the horses are not getting as much exercise and could be frisky. It probably is better for you to longe them as it can be a big job for a little person to handle and control the horse and keep the long longe line in a safe handful (not get it around his hands or feet).
If you want to change the procedure maybe talk to the Bo first and see what she thinks.


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Yogiwick said:


> I'm assuming the OPs son has the basics of lunging down or he wouldn't be doing it, hence he knows not to pull on the horse for no reason and if the son makes a goal to keep the line "light" then the horse can choose to have pressure or to release pressure.


Yes, he is very gentle. If anything, he's too kind. I am constantly saying things like, "Don't let him do that!" (more in riding, grooming, etc. than lunging). He has done quite a bit of lunging between his own horse and lessons. We work a lot on body language while lunging. I'm trying to teach him to be consistent and use his body and words to trot, canter, walk, etc. He's naturally quiet so he's learning to speak like he means it. Horseback riding is such a great exercise in controlling your own body and your voice. Anyhow I digress. LOL 



Yogiwick said:


> I don't know the OPs set up but from her picture she rides western and as such I'm assuming has no cavesson though I can't comment on how she adjusts her bit!
> 
> ETA- I did not realized you leased. I was just wondering how much authority you had in making changes. You obviously want to keep the owner/BO happy!


Actually, we ride English. I am riding western in my profile pic because that was one of the first days we had the horses and we didn't have our own gear yet. I am using a borrowed bridle and obviously no saddle. 

And yes, we do lease. Our BO is pretty knowledgeable. She went to college for something equestrian and she's judged shows before. I know that doesn't mean she knows everything and is always right, but it does mean that she has horse experience. She also used to show at the national level but doesn't anymore. 

Thanks for your help!




Woodhaven said:


> I think if the Bo has asked you to longe the horses first you should be doing that especially now as you say the ground outside is frozen and lumpy so the horses are not getting as much exercise and could be frisky. It probably is better for you to longe them as it can be a big job for a little person to handle and control the horse and keep the long longe line in a safe handful (not get it around his hands or feet).
> If you want to change the procedure maybe talk to the Bo first and see what she thinks.


Very good advice, thanks!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I think Casper might be taking advantage of your son being "too nice" 

Thought- can't the BO (that owns/keeps the horses) give your son a lesson even if informally?


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Yogiwick said:


> I think Casper might be taking advantage of your son being "too nice"
> 
> Thought- can't the BO (that owns/keeps the horses) give your son a lesson even if informally?


Funny you should suggest that...I asked her to come out & watch him today. Of course today, he was doing just fine even without the chain. Her guess was that he doesn't know how to "give and take" when Casper pulls. I did take a video, but since he was being good, not sure it's relevant. But here it is, if you want to see how my son does: https://youtu.be/uY-Ali6FeQk


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yogiwick said:


> Yes that is the go to for English.
> 
> Either way if you are lunging with a bridle you are lunging off the bit no?
> 
> ...


No, Just because I have a bridle on, over a halter, does not mean I am lunging off the bit
I only lunge off of the bit, when the horse has learned how to give to a bit, by being progressively bitted up over time< then only then will I attach the lunge line to the inside ring of that snaffle bridle. Until then, the bridle reins are just gradually checked back to the saddle, and the horse is lunged off of that halter,under the bridle
No comment on that Arabian chain set up, BUT if that chain shank is used as I described, there is zero pressure, unless the horse pulls. Yes, horses learn by pressure and esp by release of that pressure, and that is exactly what that chain shank run under the chin does. It releases completely,and immediately when that horse is giving correctly.
There is much more chance of an inexperienced person doing damage, with that lunge line attached to a bit, then there ever is, with chain run under the chin, or by that horse pulling

Not saying that I don't lunge off the bit, but only on a horse broke enough not to pull, and then it is just convenient to do so, as you ask the horse to move in frame, at gait you want, and speed you want, same as when ridden, without needing a halter under that bridle, and then just getting on to ride after a short lunging period The horse is broke enough, to keep slack in that lunge line, thus no strong pressure on the bars of the mouth
A horse only has one mouth,, and every effort should be made to keep it light, thus IF a problem horse needs to be lunged with something more than a palin lunge line and halter, A chain under the chin is way better then using a bit to control that horse on the lunge line

Tell me why you would not use a web halter, with chain run under the chin, if needed, under a snaffle bridle, with those reins just lightly tied back to the saddle?
The horse is just learning to pack that bit, give a bit vertically to it, and that chain has no influence on that bridle or bit. The horse is being lunged off of the halter


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Jan1975 said:


> Funny you should suggest that...I asked her to come out & watch him today. Of course today, he was doing just fine even without the chain. Her guess was that he doesn't know how to "give and take" when Casper pulls. I did take a video, but since he was being good, not sure it's relevant. But here it is, if you want to see how my son does: https://youtu.be/uY-Ali6FeQk


Too cute! That definitely makes sense. What I see in the video is just a big horse on a long rope with a little boy at the end. I can see how Casper might "pull" even unintentionally. I am glad you supervise even when you aren't lunging yourself. I am guessing it just comes down to size.

I was always taught to hold the excess line in my other hand (whip hand). I find it's a lot easier to learn give and take and not get into pulling wars like that (it's more like holding a rein as opposed to just yanking on a rope). That said it can be hard to juggle and I wouldn't want anyone getting tangled (hard to see but I assume he's careful not to get the line around his hand?)

Smilie I do often lunge off the halter, I was simply asking isn't any time the lunge line is connected to the bit, however it's done, lunging off the bit?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yogiwick said:


> Too cute! That definitely makes sense. What I see in the video is just a big horse on a long rope with a little boy at the end. I can see how Casper might "pull" even unintentionally. I am glad you supervise even when you aren't lunging yourself. I am guessing it just comes down to size.
> 
> I was always taught to hold the excess line in my other hand (whip hand). I find it's a lot easier to learn give and take and not get into pulling wars like that (it's more like holding a rein as opposed to just yanking on a rope). That said it can be hard to juggle and I wouldn't want anyone getting tangled (hard to see but I assume he's careful not to get the line around his hand?)
> 
> Smilie I do often lunge off the halter, I was simply asking isn't any time the lunge line is connected to the bit, however it's done, lunging off the bit?


Yes, to that question, of course, but your phrasing made it seem that every time a horse had a bridle on, he was being lunged off the bit, hense the confusion, or lack of clarity.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I just watched part of it, and does not look like a horse that is pulling. Using that corner is a good idea. The horse is going around pretty honestly, from the aprt I watched, anyway!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Yes I think the OP said he was NOT doing his usual stuff? I'm not convinced he is actually pulling at all though (just her son is small)

Yes, you can lunge off a halter under a bridle lol. I apologize, I've been noticing how black and white my statements tend to be when they are not meant like that then I can't understand why people respond so literally lol. My bad!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I think the problem is that when your son is lunging, he isn't actively walking with the horse, so the horse tends to "drag" him around, and it looks like pulling.

It can be hard to coordinate yourself when you lunge, and he's young so it's understandable.. but it should get better if he at least walks so his chest is always facing the horse's chest and he's behind the driving line.


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Yogiwick said:


> Yes I think the OP said he was NOT doing his usual stuff? I'm not convinced he is actually pulling at all though (just her son is small)


Yes, he was being good here. At least from what I can see.



Skyseternalangel said:


> I think the problem is that when your son is lunging, he isn't actively walking with the horse, so the horse tends to "drag" him around, and it looks like pulling.
> 
> It can be hard to coordinate yourself when you lunge, and he's young so it's understandable.. but it should get better if he at least walks so his chest is always facing the horse's chest and he's behind the driving line.


He is walking with the horse, isn't he? He's moving in a small circle, and I don't think the horse is pulling him. There are times he's walking in the circle and the rope is slack. We've worked on facing the horse and keeping behind the driving line. SO MANY THINGS to remember! 

Thanks for taking the time to help!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Jan1975 said:


> Yes, he was being good here. At least from what I can see.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This isn't harsh criticism just something I noticed. He's not walking very with the horse, kind of slowly trailing after it.. especially when the horse is cantering. Every time the horse picks up the speed, the handler has to adjust in order to keep up in order to stay behind the driving line. Else the horse ends up hitting the end of the line. In other words, he needs to walk a little faster when the horse canters so that he is right where he needs to be instead of being left behind.


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Skyseternalangel said:


> This isn't harsh criticism just something I noticed. He's not walking very with the horse, kind of slowly trailing after it.. especially when the horse is cantering. Every time the horse picks up the speed, the handler has to adjust in order to keep up in order to stay behind the driving line. Else the horse ends up hitting the end of the line. In other words, he needs to walk a little faster when the horse canters so that he is right where he needs to be instead of being left behind.


Hmm, okay. We'll work on that.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Jan,

Ignore how much of a spaz I am (he's a huge cantering horse, lol!) but here's an example... see how my speed changes as he does? That's also a way I get him to transition down, by slowing myself down... just like how I do under saddle with my seat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIwhdts-b8k


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Jan,
> 
> Ignore how much of a spaz I am (he's a huge cantering horse, lol!) but here's an example... see how my speed changes as he does? That's also a way I get him to transition down, by slowing myself down... just like how I do under saddle with my seat
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIwhdts-b8k


Just when I thought there wasn't anyone spazzier than me...  Thanks for posting that. You are definitely moving a lot more than we do. I'll try your way. You have a beautiful horse!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Sky I disagree. For a 10 year old I think he's doing just great and he is just learning.

I would NOT encourage him to walk more (though yes at times he loses the "drive" but it's clearly not effecting this horse, and won't matter too much with a well trained OR forward horse).

The goal is that the handler stays still and the horse moves. Now obviously the handler needs to turn and I do walk some myself (I get dizzy lol) but in the video posted you seem to be working just as much if not more than the horse! It should not be a workout if the horse is well behaved. I know you had some issues finding a good lunge line and walking can definitely make a bigger circle without worrying about more line.

Not trying to critique you and I do see what you are saying just don't think the boy needs more movement. I would be worried about him overdoing it and the horse retaliating (kick out or throw a buck and run) and the boy being too small to do anything about it. As he advances he will learn when to push when needed, already he is catching, or almost catching the horse slowing down. I wouldn't want him to start running around when he's doing so well (or maybe that's what you meant by spazzy and that's the part we are supposed to ignore? )

The video Smilie posted shows an ideal level of movement for just an ordinary day in the park lunge on a well trained horse. You shouldn't have to chase. Casper is clearly used to this routine.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

It is only my humble opinion, and not very surprised that you disagree. We tend to disagree as you like to play devil's advocate.

And as I said before, I am overdoing it because of my horse's size, circumstances, and the space we have.

I stand by what I said whether you disagree or not


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Jan,
> 
> Ignore how much of a spaz I am (he's a huge cantering horse, lol!) but here's an example... see how my speed changes as he does? That's also a way I get him to transition down, by slowing myself down... just like how I do under saddle with my seat
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIwhdts-b8k


From what I watched, the boy is doing okay, and nothing I saw, for the first part I watched, would have me consider that thiu is a horse who pulls and needs to be lunged with a chain
Lunging is not ground driving, and a horse that knows how to lunge, should not need you to walk like you are doing
If a horse keeps slaCK in the line, thus seeks that circle, all you should need to do, is pivot some, as he tracks around you, and not to need to be constantly driving him, like a green horse!
You have to walk to keep slack in that line, or your horse would be pulling!
It's your horse's job to find that track of that circle!
If you were in an arena, lunging with several other horses being lunged, you would interfer with them, drifting like that


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Smilie said:


> From what I watched, the boy is doing okay, and nothing I saw, for the first part I watched, would have me consider that thiu is a horse who pulls and needs to be lunged with a chain
> Lunging is not ground driving, and a horse that knows how to lunge, should not need you to walk like you are doing
> If a horse keeps slaCK in the line, thus seeks that circle, all you should need to do, is pivot some, as he tracks around you, and not to need to be constantly driving him, like a green horse!
> You have to walk to keep slack in that line, or your horse would be pulling!
> ...


I am just going to respond by saying there is more than one way to lunge a horse. You have your methods, and I have mine. My horse knows how to lunge.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I am just going to respond by saying there is more than one way to lunge a horse. You have your methods, and I have mine. My horse knows how to lunge.


Yup, and you are being lunged at the same time, LOL!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Yup, and you are being lunged at the same time, LOL!


And that is because the "lungeline" was not a real lungeline if you look closely, and the title of the video (plus all the health posts I've made regarding this) alludes to my horse returning from an injury... so excuse me for making the circle bigger than the length of the lungeline.



The OP already knows what I meant, and not that she should replicate me in my special situation, which I tried to make light of by labeling myself as spazzy.

Sheesh. And good job for y'all being so rude, shows great character.


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## HERlatigo813 (Apr 17, 2013)

I was always taught to put the stud chain over the nose when lunging. That way the horse feels the pressure on their nose if they pull, They aren't going to want to pull if it Is uncomfortable to do so. There should always be come slack in the line as well, the point of lunging is to let the horse get extra energy out before getting on them, the horse should be working around you so you can do as little work as possible. The horse should not be dragging you around while you lunge him, They know what their doing when they are pulling you around, that makes you look weak to them and teaches them that you will let them get away with certain stuff. Maybe try lunging him in the round pen with a lunge line on too, a few times and then take him out with just the lunge line, that might help your son gain control and confidence when lunging him. If you cant gain control when on the ground your horse will never respect you when riding.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

seems there is a difference of opinion on what lunging a horse is:icon_rolleyes:
I agree with Yogiwick & Smilie. When Lunging the handler shouldn't have to be walking or running along too !!


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

Golden Horse said:


> LOL, I never thought that I would be an advocate of lunging before riding then I bought Fergie! I choose to lunge her for a few minutes before I get on, she bucks, runs, motorbikes, at this stage I prefer to let her get it out of her system before I climb on.


Absolutely!! In a _perfect world_ with perfect horses, they always would be perfectly quiet and calm no matter how much _pent up energy_ is in them. Well guess what-the real world just isn't like that and for safety, especially with kids getting ready to ride them I prefer to lunge them, let them get that burst of energy out and gauge the mood of the horse. And, if a child is lunging, the chain is used only if the horse _does_ pull. Under the nose for light to medium pulling, over the nose for true obnoxiousness. There have been many a horse over my long career that needed to get his jollies out before the ride and it has saved me many accidents.

There is nothing at all wrong with chains as long you _pay attention_ and don't use them for abuse. One freak accident doesn't make them inherently unsafe.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Smilie said:


> Yup, and you are being lunged at the same time, LOL!


This did make me lol 

Sky I don't think anyone is trying to be rude. Unless saying I disagree is rude? Just while I do see a bit of what you are suggesting in the OPs video it is hard to tell exactly what you are trying to show in YOUR video with the amount of movement. I understand for you it has a purpose and that's fine but again it muddy's what you are trying to show. I'm not playing at anything. Maybe just confused by your point?

I appreciate the "spazzy" and like the video but not sure what exactly you are trying to show as it's getting lost. Does the OP know? That wasn't clear to me.

Regardless of reasons this horse does NOT lunge like your horse.

Like I said I do like to walk while lunging (dizzyness) the circle is small, as in a couple feet, and the horse is still clearly pivoting around me in the "triangle". When I walk intentionally to make a circle bigger it's still that same set up and the furthest I will walk is maybe a 5m circle. I face the horse and am parallel to it.


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Yogiwick said:


> This did make me lol
> 
> Sky I don't think anyone is trying to be rude. Unless saying I disagree is rude? Just while I do see a bit of what you are suggesting in the OPs video it is hard to tell exactly what you are trying to show in YOUR video with the amount of movement. I understand for you it has a purpose and that's fine but again it muddy's what you are trying to show. I'm not playing at anything. Maybe just confused by your point?
> 
> ...


Well, I wouldn't lunge with quite as much movement as Sky partially because I'm lazy and partially because I do think it's a bit excessive. But she did say she was spazzy.  I do think she did a better job of following/staying with the horse and using her body language to communicate than we do. It's a work in progress, for us and the horse.


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