# Dangerous baby. Ideas needed.



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I need ideas, I need people who have been in a similar situations as I am currently in. 

Lets throw out the fact that I ride at a university and am surrounded by "professionals". 

I am riding a 2 year old who was broke out about a month ago by a different girl. This horse from day one has had a challenging personality. It would bite, strike out, try to run you over, etc. Well this behavior was not corrected by the girl who broke him out. Infact she backed down everytime he challenged her, she would either change the subject or put him away. Its obvious she was scared of him, and he took full advantage. Now I have the task of fixing the problem she created. 

His main problem is when my butt is in the saddle. Forward motion is basically non-exsistant. We have a serious rearing problem, everytime I challenge him or say "no" his reaction is to rear repeatedly. Almost everytime i ask him to go forward he rears in protest. I have tried spanking him with the reins and being chased with a whip (ONLY used when he started to suck back). I have also tried the fresh approach thinking maybe its because he is out of steam and is being fussy (that resulted in ALOT of bucking). 

He has had tons of ground work done to him. Ground driving, hobbling, sacking out, etc. He is still nasty on the ground aswell, he will frequently try to bite you when you're handling him. He will strike out occasionally aswell. Walking past his stall he gives you the :evil: look. BUT we have forward motion on the ground and no rearing. The past time I rode I had to get off because he was getting way too out of hand, we went straight to ground driving. He was more than happy to go forward. 


The more i ask him of him the harder he fights it. He has gotten away with being nasty from day one and how he thinks thats how the world works. He can do what he wants, and everyone will back down. I need to "wipe the smile off his face" right now before he turns into a very dangerous horse. I do not feel he is a "bad horse" per-say, he is still very young and has lots of time for learning. I think he has just had a bad start, but im at a loss right now.

I need ideas or other alternatives because right now I don't know how far he is willing to go to fight me. I have "considered" the hybrid horsemanship method....I am not so sure tho. My main problem is in the saddle, when I get off it defeats the purpose because for the most part he behaves on the ground. My safety is my first priority, I need a way to get the fight out of him from a safer point. He needs to see the world in a different point of view and stop trying to fight everything. Life is not that hard and I don't know how to show him that! I fear for this horse's future, he is on a very bad path right now. 

Please help. If you have stories about horses like this please feel free to share, I'd like to read them. I have worked with difficult horses before but nothing like this.


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## PunksTank

Sounds to me like one of two things. His training is poor quality, he's terribly confused and reacts violently in self-defense. OR he's in pain. Being a 2 year old having had ALL that work done with him, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he were in pain in some ways or another.


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PunksTank said:


> Sounds to me like one of two things. His training is poor quality, he's terribly confused and reacts violently in self-defense. OR he's in pain. Being a 2 year old having had ALL that work done with him, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he were in pain in some ways or another.


Mind you almost ALL that work was rubbish. Everytime he acted nasty towards her she backed down.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

You need to establish respect on the ground before you ride him anymore this horse could definitely hurt you. Start him over from scratch pretend he doesn't know anything. You need to show him your the dominate leader not him. It's obvious that person that trained him did not know much about what they were doing. I have yearling colts that behave like my adult horses and this horse should do exactly the same. Everything he does when he pulls his stunts needs and immediate consequence and you only have 3 seconds. When his attitude gets sorry make his feet move, back him up, disengage his hindquarters and make him work. The one that moves his feet is the submissive horse in horse language. Make being a butt head work and being good easy. Then go back to whatever you were doing like it never happened. Make sure when he acts up you hold your ground and make him back away instead. This horse sounds like he needs a coming to jesus moment. Be firm with him don't give him an inch. When he tries to bite you turn on him and make him think your going to kill him. Smack him a lunge whip and be firm get loud move fast and hit him with firm and concise hits. Don't beat him up but make it hurt. You think he'd would get away with that if he were in the herd with the leader horse. He get kicked and chased and you need to do something which gives the same impression.


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## PunksTank

Then it sounds to me like you need to start him from the beginning as clearly all he's learned is no good. I think trying to just get on won't work. I'd start him from the beginning and not get on him again (First of all until his joints close) but until he's calm and controlled on the ground.


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Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> You need to establish respect on the ground before you ride him anymore this horses could definitely hurt you. Start him over from scratch pretend he doesn't know anything. You need to show him your the dominate leader not him. It's obvious that person that trained him did not know much about what they were doing. I have yearling colts that behave like my adult horses and this horse should do exactly the same. Everything he does when he pulls his stunts needs and immediate consequence and you only have 3 seconds. When his attitude gets sorry make his feet move, back him up, disengage his hindquarters and make him work. The horse one that moves his feet is the submissive horse in horse language. Make being a butt head work and being good easy. Then go back to whatever you were doing like it never happened. Make sure when he acts up you hold your ground and make him back away instead. This horse sounds like he needs a coming to jesus moment. Be firm with him don't give him an inch. When he tries to bite you turn on him and make him think your going to kill him. Smack him a lunge whip and be firm get loud move fast and hit him with a firm and concise hits. Don't beat him up but make it hurt. You think he'd would get away with that if he were in the herd with the leader horse. He get kicked and chased and you need to do something which gives the same impression.


Thats just our problem. I DO get after him like hell is rising every time he shows an ounce of dis-respect. But he still walks around with a smirk on his face. Perhaps I need more and more ground work. But generally with ground driving, lunging, etc he behaves BUT has an attitude about it. He will do it but will have an :? attitude. That attitude is what needs to be eliminated. You will think you're winning on the ground, then hop on and his front legs spend more time in the air than on the ground.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

Are you using pressure and release correctly? Is there a way you can film yourself I'm kind of curious to watch his and your body language to get a better feel to tell you what to do. When you work him make sure there is not a lot of repetition and when lunging make sure not to do it for very long and implement lots of directional changes.


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Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Are you using pressure and release correctly? Is there a way you can film yourself I'm kind of curious to watch his and your body language to get a better feel to tell you what to do. When you work him make sure there is not a lot of repetition and when lunging make sure not to do it for very long and implement lots of directional changes.



The only time i have pressure on his mouth is when we re-direct. & the only time i ever re-direct is if he is taking me close to a wall. Soon as he goes forward I stop with the leg pressure, soon as he starts to suck back I start leg and voice cues. I make a point to have dramatic release of pressure. I even scratch his neck. Release is the most important thing especially when it comes to teaching babies.


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This is not my horse, I do not have permission to post a video of it. I am not even allowed to post pictures of it.

If you're curious as to my experience level there is a video of me riding a horse I trained on this site. But thats the best I can do for you.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

Well darn it's hard to say exactly with out watching him. But that is the limitation of the forum. I say just stay firm with him and keep things mixed up he may be one of those horses thats sours easy because of boredom.


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Believe me I'd love to post a video, I would be told if the instructors thought the issue was me. They gave the horse to me to fix, and so far they claim is just the horse. But there are always things that others might not see. Thats why I posted this on here, for other ideas and opinions.


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## tinyliny

What if you lunge and ground drive him with a dummy on his back? Weighted to mimic a humans weight and firmly attached. Monty Roberts does this sometimes.


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tinyliny said:


> What if you lunge and ground drive him with a dummy on his back? Weighted to mimic a humans weight and firmly attached. Monty Roberts does this sometimes.


I thought about some how rigging a heavy sack to the saddle. 

The people I worked for over the summer hung heavy wagon tires from the horn. They hit right where the spurs would, I found it to be really effective with a horse who had forward motion issues. Unfortunately we don't have anything like that available to us.

I might have to make a trip to Lowes


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## Saddlebag

I bo't welsh and you are describing him to a T. His training was full of so many holes I began with haltering, even tho he was good for being haltered. I didn't want to miss a thing. Some days we progressed by yards and other days inches but his defensive attitude was beginning to soften. It was two months before he was ridden. He had learned to trust us and the kids had a blast with him.


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## farmpony84

Rearing is one of the hardest things to break because it's one of the most dangerous things to react to.

With my rearer, I never did get a 100% fix but one thing that you obviously know that worked well was forward motion, but since you are having a hard time with that (because he sounds like he is a pretty smart guy) then the next thing that was really helpful to me was that when he would rear, I would take the rein and yank him to the right or left while he was on the upward motion. That knocked him off balance and forced him to throw his front feet back to the ground. 

He got smart about it though and one time when I went to pull the rein, he spun his head the other way and pulled me right out of the saddle.

Another thing I would do was jam my knuckle into his spine just above the withers as he would begin his rear, it hurt and he would come down.

I came up with a lot of tactics that had good results but never did come up with a fix. I also never had a trainer that was willing to help me. They all said that he was dangerous and I should get rid of him. He was three when I got him and came with the rearing problems. He is 29 now and still out in my pasture.

We had a lot of good years together, but the rearing I never did fix.

I think that you are in a better position then I was though and I'm certain you will find a way to get past this. Good luck!


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farmpony84 said:


> Rearing is one of the hardest things to break because it's one of the most dangerous things to react to.
> 
> With my rearer, I never did get a 100% fix but one thing that you obviously know that worked well was forward motion, but since you are having a hard time with that (because he sounds like he is a pretty smart guy) then the next thing that was really helpful to me was that when he would rear, I would take the rein and yank him to the right or left while he was on the upward motion. That knocked him off balance and forced him to throw his front feet back to the ground.
> 
> He got smart about it though and one time when I went to pull the rein, he spun his head the other way and pulled me right out of the saddle.
> 
> Another thing I would do was jam my knuckle into his spine just above the withers as he would begin his rear, it hurt and he would come down.
> 
> I came up with a lot of tactics that had good results but never did come up with a fix. I also never had a trainer that was willing to help me. They all said that he was dangerous and I should get rid of him. He was three when I got him and came with the rearing problems. He is 29 now and still out in my pasture.
> 
> We had a lot of good years together, but the rearing I never did fix.
> 
> I think that you are in a better position then I was though and I'm certain you will find a way to get past this. Good luck!


Pulling off to the side worries me more than the rearing itself. I have seen many horses flip over by people trying to throw them off balance. Often when people do that (depending on the horse) it scares them and they give a :shock::shock::shock: look and rise even higher and flip over. This little guy rears very high as it is, throwing him off balance is the last thing i want to do. When he rears i throw my hands forward and grab mane or neck and try to stay centered. I have thought about bailing and flipping him over when he does it, but I don't want to go that extreme yet considering he could get hurt.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

Make him move his feet when he starts to rear, make him turn circles when you feel him fixing to rear up. When you ride keep him busy, lots if directional changes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boots

Wow. You're in a tough spot. 


I'm not sure how you are going to do this...


> Make being a butt head work and being good easy. Then go back to whatever you were doing like it never happened.


With this...


> Forward motion is basically non-exsistant. We have a serious rearing problem, everytime I challenge him or say "no" his reaction is to rear repeatedly. Almost everytime I ask him to go forward he rears in protest.


... going on.

I would do one of two things, and it would depend on where the horse and I were, who else was around, and how much time I had for the horse.

I would either re-start the horse. Not caring if he was a dream on the ground. I'd find a hole somewhere. Doesn't want to stand tied for 4 to 6 hours? Doesn't want me to trim his feet (I have to be nearly the world's slowest trimmer). Put up with having a light saddle put on and taken off a few dozen times. Ground drive for a few miles.

I would purposely irritate this horse, correct, and do it some more. He'd give up before I did.

I've only felt the need to take three horses who reared back over. Then I did throw a tarp on them and let them think about that for a while. Less than an hour. But, they were bad enough that they had already hurt people and had just had some seriously messed up "training." 

I wouldn't do that if there were people who might be upset. Not really fair to them, they don't understand. And you will be verbally attacked, screwing up your ability to interact with the horse appropriately when you get him up.

Being that this is a college program, I expect you have some time to spend on this. No 14 day deadline or anything.

What do your instructors suggest, if anything. My observation of many college programs are that there is little actual training of the students when things like this come up.


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## farmpony84

My horse was a very athletic boy. But when I pulled to the side, it was just as he went up so his feet had just left the ground, if I waited to long he was already up and my only option was to kick really hard which would result in a forward leap that always scared the poop out of me. Luckily he was not an evil horse.....


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Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> *Make him move his feet* when he starts to rear, make him turn circles when you feel him fixing to rear up. When you ride keep him busy, lots if directional changes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



How can i do that when i cannot get him to move his feet to begin with? Everytime we re-direct or steer at all he sucks back and rears. Besides, like i previously mentioned. I am not throwing that already unbalanced baby off balance when he is on his hind feet.


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farmpony84 said:


> Luckily he was not an evil horse.....


I do not think he is evil, but has the potential to develop "evil" tendencies. Like you mentioned is he very, very smart. He has figured out a way to manipulate people into doing what he wants. He was born a brat, and that i firmly believe. I handled him the first day he arrived at the farm and he was pushy, mouthy, and nasty. All of this could have been corrected with a good solid FIRM foundation. Which he did not receive. He was taught from the first day of his training that HE is in control. His foundation is his own agenda, he out smarted the girl that started him. 

Now that I am challenging him, he is lashing out.


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## boots

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> How can i do that when i cannot get him to move his feet to begin with? Everytime we re-direct or steer at all he sucks back and rears. Besides, like i previously mentioned. I am not throwing that already unbalanced baby off balance when he is on his hind feet.


You can't. 

So, you are stuck with a couple choices. Go back to extensive ground work, or go banshee on him while riding. Unless you are as athletic as the hybrid horsemanship dude, and every bit as experienced, I don't recommend the latter.


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boots said:


> You can't.
> 
> So, you are stuck with a couple choices. Go back to extensive ground work, or go banshee on him while riding. Unless you are as athletic as the hybrid horsemanship dude, and every bit as experienced, I don't recommend the latter.


I should give him a call. Maybe he'd fly in from Japan :lol::lol:


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## Ian McDonald

I think that if I couldn't get a horse to strike a lope on the ground (as in a round pen or on a long line) by just tapping my leg with my rope and then slow back to a walk and then a stop -without- having to be pulled, rather than just stampeding off or sucking back, I would not put my leg over that horse yet. Though some are braver than I. ;]


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Ian McDonald said:


> I think that if I couldn't get a horse to strike a lope on the ground (as in a round pen or on a long line) by just tapping my leg with my rope and then slow back to a walk and then a stop -without- having to be pulled, rather than just stampeding off or sucking back, I would not put my leg over that horse yet. Though some are braver than I. ;]


You couldn't pay me to ride him in a round pen. I want to stay as far away from walls, panels, etc when he rears. I don't want to be stuck between a horse and a hard place :wink:


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Patiently waiting on Cherie to chime in :shock:


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## BarrelracingArabian

Don't give him the chance to rear. The second you feel him start to suck back change directions disengage that hind end. My guy has forward motion issues you can not give them even that split second to think they are in control. Also do more ground work. I bet he is showing signs of this behavior there also do more transition and get him used to being pressured and a very noticeable release. Good luck


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BarrelracingArabian said:


> Don't give him the chance to rear. The second you feel him start to suck back *change directions disengage that hind end.* My guy has forward motion issues you can not give them even that split second to think they are in control. Also do more ground work. I bet he is showing signs of this behavior there also do more transition and get him used to being pressured and a very noticeable release. Good luck


I cannot get him to move his feet let alone disengage his hind end. I try to steer him even a little when he sucks back he jumps in the air.


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## Island Horselover

What is the horses behaviour like in a herd with other horses? Do you have access to water, like a lake or something you could take him in??? If so I would def. go with him in the water, chest high and make him go forward, there is no way that he can rear badly and the bucks will be hardly noticable, been there, done that... water works wonders if you have a nasty horse!!! The dummy idea is another good idea - been there but did take way longer than the water method which is actually the way the natives used to break their horses!


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Island Horselover said:


> What is the horses behaviour like in a herd with other horses? Do you have access to water, like a lake or something you could take him in??? If so I would def. go with him in the water, chest high and make him go forward, there is no way that he can rear badly and the bucks will be hardly noticable, been there, done that... water works wonders if you have a nasty horse!!! The dummy idea is another good idea - been there but did take way longer than the water method which is actually the way the natives used to break their horses!


He is the dominant horse in the herd, constantly picks on the other horses. No, I do not have access to water. I am slightly confused as to how that would help my situation. His problem is moving while being sat on, not being sat on in general.


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## Island Horselover

Well I understand that that is your main problem (out of some as it seems), but he can move forward in the water too... and rearing and bucking is just so much harder for them! So my QH used to buck so hard that I could not stand on, no way I could and once I got him to stand and stop bucking he would just not move forward, pushing him ended up in bad bucking again... so off we went to the water and I pushed him, pushed him hard to move and guess what? He tried bucking but it was all the sudden so much harder that moving forward was way easier than beeing an idiot... Pressure and release are of course important tools in the process. My biggest concern was getting hurt in getting bucked of and if that would happen in the water it would not be as bad either...


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## Ian McDonald

I bet if you were to take a long driving whip and tie a plastic grocery bag onto the end of it, walk out in the pasture, and start walking toward the horses swinging it more and more the closer you got, you could get them all to move their feet. Just take that same ability and measure it out in other situations.


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Ian McDonald said:


> I bet if you were to take a long driving whip and tie a plastic grocery bag onto the end of it, walk out in the pasture, and start walking toward the horses swinging it more and more the closer you got, you could get them all to move their feet. Just take that same ability and measure it out in other situations.


Right, when cracked with a whip he will move. Like i mentioned i was chased around with a whip for a little while when i was on him. He got really out of hand and i got off. Im looking for safer options to get the fight out of him. I might just have to ride through and see what we both are made of.


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## boots

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> Right, when cracked with a whip he will move. Like i mentioned i was chased around with a whip for a little while when i was on him. He got really out of hand and i got off. Im looking for safer options to get the fight out of him. I might just have to ride through and see what we both are made of.


 
Just a guess, but I don't recommend doing that. If you were ready for it, you would have done it already. 

Sometimes, usually, a horse like this takes a lot of time. Hours a day. If you can't give that then you do have a time constraint and I recommend begging off of working with him in your program.


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## EmilyJoy

I think that might be the problem... As soon as you get off he gets rewarded for being out of control. 

It seems to me you need to take that horse and act like he is what he is, a dangerous horse. Clinton Anderson had a free tv. show of a horse that was really aggressive (actually would chase the owner with bared teeth/striking out etc.). What he did (to start out with) was work that horse in the round pen (for respect) and acted like it was (his life) him or the horse. Every time that horse pinned his ears back Clinton got after him aggressively with his stock whip, until that horse was worn out and respectful, any time that horse got sassy looking he got driven away and made him canter a few laps. He said horses get mean that way by being used to moving peoples feet instead of people moving horses feet, and they don't like giving that position up. Since what you are dealing with is a 2yr old I can't imagine it would take super long to get him turned around.

About the rearing issue, just to manage it. I used to have a Shetland pony that reared whenever she wanted to go back to the barn or get away from an object (before I came across Clinton Anderson or any of that type of training dealing with getting respect) so I had to work with her before she got up to full height... I had tried to do most anything like getting her to move forward or back etc. the only way I could control her is by turning her head as soon as she went to rear up. It worked really well, I mean how well can a horse rear when he's smelling his belly? Just some thoughts to chew on I guess.

Basically you've got to drive him off so hard that he's not thinking about coming off after you, but thinking about how he can remove the pressure, and allow no coming off at you.


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boots said:


> Just a guess, but I don't recommend doing that. *If you were ready for it, you would have done it already. *
> 
> Sometimes, usually, a horse like this takes a lot of time. Hours a day. If you can't give that then you do have a time constraint and I recommend begging off of working with him in your program.


I agree with this statement. I want to exhaust all my options first. 

They have agreed to re-arrage my horse assignments if i take on this project (which I have). I will have ample time to work with him.


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## Ian McDonald

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> Im looking for safer options to get the fight out of him. I might just have to ride through and see what we both are made of.


Doesn't sound very safe to me! LOL.

It's not cracked -with- a whip. It's the horse's natural awe of the human being as a predator that's supposed to move them when you create some energy behind them. No different than you'd spook a wild deer just by lifting your hand, and they'd move their feet. The horse is the same, only a little less reactive because most of them are used to us. So you may have to do more at first, but if you STOP (completely) what you're doing THE MOMENT they take a step then pretty soon you can build on that and you'll reach a point to where you rarely have to make any contact at all to get them to go forward any speed you want. If you hit him you had better do it sparingly, otherwise he starts to figure out that you can't knock him down and then he gets mad. And then he may eventually knock YOU down. :wink:


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## PunksTank

Are you opposed to restarting him? I'd start with halter breaking/leading. Just take him into the arena and lead him around, then pause occasionally and make him yield something. Repeat this until he's completely polite all the time on the lead. From there I'd take to giving to pressure on the halter, then bridle, then ground driving and so on all the way up to riding. Take all the steps all over again. Obviously some things he'll excel through but others he'll need some more work. Those things that need extra work are those holes you're trying to fix.


As for not going forward... Pressure on a horses side is a 'squeeze' type reaction, it makes a horse feel trapped, their natural response is to go backwards or UP. If backwards doesn't relieve the pressure, most passive horses or horses with SOLID ground work will try forward, but horses who are more reactive or less solid in their ground work/understanding of giving to pressure - they'll try going UP. This is clearly the path he's taken that has found him a relief of pressure, even if it's momentarily, maybe a previous rider got scared and got off.

So here's what I'd do, have someone lead you around with you providing all the cues from the saddle at the same time. Does he rear when being lead? This may help him better understand what is expected of him. Chasing him with a whip is more aggressive, giving him more reason to feel defensive and reactive, while leading him is taking charge but not aggressive. I typically start most reactive horses with someone leading on the ground, while I provide the cues, weaning the horse off the leader's cues and onto the rider's cues.


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PunksTank said:


> Are you opposed to restarting him? I'd start with halter breaking/leading. Just take him into the arena and lead him around, then pause occasionally and make him yield something. Repeat this until he's completely polite all the time on the lead. From there I'd take to giving to pressure on the halter, then bridle, then ground driving and so on all the way up to riding. Take all the steps all over again. Obviously some things he'll excel through but others he'll need some more work. Those things that need extra work are those holes you're trying to fix.
> 
> I am not at all opposed to doing this. I will be re-fining every aspect of his handling. From haltering, to tying, to saddling.
> 
> 
> As for not going forward... Pressure on a horses side is a 'squeeze' type reaction, it makes a horse feel trapped, their natural response is to go backwards or UP. If backwards doesn't relieve the pressure, most passive horses or horses with SOLID ground work will try forward, but horses who are more reactive or less solid in their ground work/understanding of giving to pressure - they'll try going UP. This is clearly the path he's taken that has found him a relief of pressure, even if it's momentarily, maybe a previous rider got scared and got off.
> 
> There are moments, when he listens to my leg pressure and "marches forward". Then we reach a spot in the arena where he wants to stop. Or i steer away from where he wants to go, then he goes up again. He has his own agenda, and is willing to fight for it
> 
> So here's what I'd do, have someone lead you around with you providing all the cues from the saddle at the same time. Does he rear when being lead? This may help him better understand what is expected of him. Chasing him with a whip is more aggressive, giving him more reason to feel defensive and reactive, while leading him is taking charge but not aggressive. I typically start most reactive horses with someone leading on the ground, while I provide the cues, weaning the horse off the leader's cues and onto the rider's cues.
> He has never reared with me while leading, but then again we have yet to start on showmanship. I know when he was being ponied around he was resisting and rearing quite abit.


Basically now he reaction to anything is rear. We were riding on Friday and a girl behind us cracked a whip at a horse she was lunging and he sucked back and reared. Or if he spooks, he rears. He is working off his fight instinct instead of flight.


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## EmilyJoy

Maybe he needs hours of desensitizing? That's if he's scared silly maybe.


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## PunksTank

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> Basically now he reaction to anything is rear. We were riding on Friday and a girl behind us cracked a whip at a horse she was lunging and he sucked back and reared. Or if he spooks, he rears. He is working off his fight instinct instead of flight.



I absolutely agree that he is. Which is why rather than trying to pick a fight with him you need to make the correct answer easier. You're never gonna win a battle with him, not without the potential of serious injury. Which is why you should make things as simple as possible. I think restarting him is the best way to go and maybe the first few rides should be lead by hand, by someone competent enough to do so.


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EmilyJoy said:


> Maybe he needs hours of desensitizing? That's if he's scared silly maybe.


The only times he has spooked with me is when a horse beside him gets really frisky. His reaction to everything is up, so naturally spooking = up.


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PunksTank said:


> I absolutely agree that he is. Which is why rather than trying to pick a fight with him you need to make the correct answer easier. You're never gonna win a battle with him, not without the potential of serious injury. Which is why you should make things as simple as possible. I think restarting him is the best way to go and maybe the first few rides should be lead by hand, by someone competent enough to do so.


Making him WANT to choose the correct answer is what is going to be tricky with him. Since he is all fight and no flight, even presented with the correct answer he might not want to take it. Like i said before its when he doesn't get his way is where we have a problem. Sometimes we will be going along for about half a circle, then we get to a point where we are stuck, always the same point too. I anticipate this stickiness and try to drive him forward before we hit the point of suck back, but pushing makes him want to resist more. So he sucks back sooner than he would if i didnt push.

Then we try letting him go where ever he wants to go aslong as he marches there. But he wants to stop, at the gate, near people, near horses, in the middle of the arena. I make my release very dramatic to make sure he knows he chose the correct answer. But still he fights.


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## PunksTank

Then perhaps he needs more motivation and you should look into alternative training styles. If that's not your thing then you just gotta keep at it. I think you have a plan and you'll just have to see how things go after a couple months of restarting. I'm sure you'll find some troubles with his ground work, fixing that will surely help this.


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## Horsesdontlie

Just a random thought as I don't know much about greenies or aggressive horses. I had a very chronic rearer as well and researched every trick in the book.

One that I've heard some people using and working for their horses is blinders over the top part of their eyes so they think they are under a low ceiling. I guess its call a pacifier. My horse didn't give a second thought to rearing with it but he also had no level of thought towards self preservation. 






I believe the most recent update from the owner is that her horse is now back into full work.


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## .Delete.

PunksTank said:


> Then perhaps he needs more motivation and you should look into alternative training styles. If that's not your thing then you just gotta keep at it. I think you have a plan and you'll just have to see how things go after a couple months of restarting. I'm sure you'll find some troubles with his ground work, fixing that will surely help this.


Alternative training styles as in more aggressive approach?


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## Thrill Ride

Sounds like the 3 year old I rode.

Saphire, the 3 year old, I had broke in a very calm way, not stressful at all. But it was her previous owner that made her mean. This horse still continues to be mean. I guess I don't have the time to work with her everyday and she needs a job to do everyday. She will randomly kick you and other horses, just out of pure randomness. Loves to bite. And sometimes has issues with not wanting to go and rearing. I will give you some ideas.

Biting, if he even pins his ears back or threatens to bite slap him in the mouth like you mean it! Not just lightly hitting him. He is a half ton animal. I won't full out slap my 5 month old filly because I don't want to break her trust and she doesn't know better. But a 2 year old should know better and can take a good slap in the mouth. I know many horses they got slapped in the mouth for biting but it wasn't a good slap so they kept doing it, once they got a 'slap like it was meant' they never tried again. If he turns his head to quick, slap him like you mean it in the shoulder, both times shout 'NO!'. All it takes is one time for you to be seriously bit, and also one time for you to teach him a lesson.

Kicking, one of Saphire's favorite things. Take him into a round pen if possibly. Have a lunge whip with you. If he tries to kick discipline him. If you kicks under saddle like Saphire did to other horses start backing him up really fast, then turn him in circles. If you can ride with a crop don't be afraid to discipline him for it.

Rearing, I had a friend that's horse every time it misbehaved the trainer would tick it off really bad so the horse would rear up. So the trainer would flip her over. When my friend got the horse everytime you would stop her in a matter of miliseconds the horse would rear up and flip herself over. When she was getting into a rear they would tap her between the ears on her poll, so she would think if she reared she would hit her head on something. That is the only way they taught that horse to stop flipping herself over is by taping her between the ears, and they had tried everything before that. 

I hope I gave you some ideas.


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## PunksTank

.Delete. said:


> Alternative training styles as in more aggressive approach?


Or the opposite, many people are opposed to it but you could look into clicker training. I believe being more aggressive would only make him more reactive -but something like CT might give him the motivation he needs. It'll help make it so he _wants_ to do what you ask, as opposed to doing what you ask because otherwise he'll be made more and more uncomfortable. He sounds like the type of horse who needs the extra motivation.

Before you write off this idea entirely - or say "he's too aggressive around food" or "treats will only make him more pushy" or "clicker training can't teach horses practical skills" or any of the other silly stereotypes that people who have never tried CT assume will happen, please read this thread to learn the truth about CT and the psychology behind how horses learn - as well as some effective ways of starting CT and using it to fix some issues.
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/clicker-training-challenge-accepted-153311/

I haven't had to deal with a horse who rears, outside of one who reared when learning to lift his feet, but I've fixed a few horses who buck with CT. 


But if this option isn't for you, as I know many people are very specific about how horses are 'supposed' to be trained  Then it sounds like you already have a plan worked out and you'll just have to reassess your position in a few months of work.


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## .Delete.

Thrill Ride said:


> Rearing, I had a friend that's horse every time it misbehaved the trainer would tick it off really bad so the horse would rear up. So the trainer would flip her over. When my friend got the horse everytime you would stop her in a matter of miliseconds the horse would rear up and flip herself over. When she was getting into a rear they would tap her between the ears on her poll, so she would think if she reared she would hit her head on something. That is the only way they taught that horse to stop flipping herself over is by taping her between the ears, and they had tried everything before that.
> 
> I hope I gave you some ideas.


Timing is crucial when you hit a rearing horse between the ears. It can turn ugly pretty quickly. I've heard success stories and horror stories about it.


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## .Delete.

PunksTank said:


> Or the opposite, many people are opposed to it but you could look into clicker training. I believe being more aggressive would only make him more reactive -but something like CT might give him the motivation he needs. It'll help make it so he _wants_ to do what you ask, as opposed to doing what you ask because otherwise he'll be made more and more uncomfortable. He sounds like the type of horse who needs the extra motivation.
> 
> Before you write off this idea entirely - or say "he's too aggressive around food" or "treats will only make him more pushy" or "clicker training can't teach horses practical skills" or any of the other silly stereotypes that people who have never tried CT assume will happen, please read this thread to learn the truth about CT and the psychology behind how horses learn - as well as some effective ways of starting CT and using it to fix some issues.
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/clicker-training-challenge-accepted-153311/
> 
> I haven't had to deal with a horse who rears, outside of one who reared when learning to lift his feet, but I've fixed a few horses who buck with CT.
> 
> 
> But if this option isn't for you, as I know many people are very specific about how horses are 'supposed' to be trained  Then it sounds like you already have a plan worked out and you'll just have to reassess your position in a few months of work.


This would be an absolute last option considering the program I am in and they would probably laugh at me. But I like the idea of giving him something to work for. He is a clever horse and I think giving him something to work towards might do the trick.


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## PunksTank

.Delete. said:


> This would be an absolute last option considering the program I am in and they would probably laugh at me. But I like the idea of giving him something to work for. He is a clever horse and I think giving him something to work towards might do the trick.



I think being laughed at is a silly reason not to do what you feel is best for the horse. Particularly when you'll be the last one laughing when you're riding the horse that none of them could  
I think motivation would really help him, but I can understand your apprehension.


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## .Delete.

PunksTank said:


> I think being laughed at is a silly reason not to do what you feel is best for the horse. Particularly when you'll be the last one laughing when you're riding the horse that none of them could
> I think motivation would really help him, but I can understand your apprehension.


I'm going to incorporate the idea of clicker training, but not the clicker itself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie

Here I am. Here I am -- for what its worth.

I've seen horses like this before. More ground work is not going to do any good because he has already figured out the difference between having a rider and not having a rider. You can do groundwork for a year and when he is mounted, it will be just the same as it is now.

The first horse I got like this was also really spoiled when he was sent to me. He drove so good and rode so badly, I talked the people into trading him to a rancher to use on a team for pulling a feed wagon. He was smaller than is other horses, but pulled with about any of them. So, that one was not much help for figuring out horses like this.

The next one I got was worse. Drove like a dream but would not ride. Only time I could get forward motion was a runaway bucking fit. Touched his mouth and he went straight up. I got a cowboy friend of mine to snub him to a big ranch gelding. He drug him around a while without me and then we rode out in a big pasture for a couple of hours (like 500 acres). We walked and trotted but did not lope the first time. We snubbed him 3 more times (I think). We started out snubbed. He started letting the rope out longer with me stopping him and moving him around and I started using my legs more. I got him used to spurs and got him moving from them while still of a lead. When he turned me loose he rode a little. I finally got him riding good enough to send home but I was not impressed at all. I had already come to value a willing, trainable disposition. 

The last horses I had like this I put a LOT of pressure on in driving lines. I drove them across big logs they had to jump, drove them between wind-blown tarps hanging on jump standards, beat the crap out of them for sulling up and stalling out and NEVER, NEVER just pecked and nagged at them. If I got after one, I made it hurt and then left him alone when he did anything halfway right. I still snubbed them ecause I did not trust them for rearing for a pretty good while.

The only one of these horses that was aggressive toward me I laid down and left him there a good while. It surely humbles one to get held or tied down.

I think one of the things that happens to all of these horses is that they are only punished or gotten after enough to make them mad. Horses that are not willing to start with are better off if you never touch them with a whip. If you ever MUST, it better leave a welt and they better think they are lucky to be alive when you quit. 

People on here have asked me many times why I hate whips and never use them -- it is horses like these that broke me of the habit. These horses and horses that only learned to fear or respect a whip and attacked people when they did not have one are why I never use them. 

If I have to, I will lay a horse down. If I have to go toe to toe with one, I will use a lip chain and try to kill him. It is not a 'pressure and release' thing. It is just plain hurt him so bad that he thinks he is lucky to be alive. Humble him until he drops his head and backs up when he sees you coming. If he turns his butt or does not back up, he is still going to try to get you. Studs are much worse about this. 

If this were my horse, I would break him to pony first. I would use a war bridle, snub him and make him pony on a loose rope. If it took someone behind him with a bullwhip to get him to go forward willingly -- so be it. I would not waste my time with a longe whip or a stock whip. It needs to hurt. Just be sure to back off and not even haze him when he comes up alongside on a loose rope. This horse has never gone forward when he did not want to enough to ever get the reward -- the lack of pressure.

Next, I would lay him down and tie him there. I would try to get him to act aggressive or do something wrong first. Then, I would sit on him and rub him all over and when he was laying quietly, I would let him up, snub him to good horse and ride him a little. I would not ride in any kind of a pen. It is real likely that he will never ride good in a pen. I would not ride him very long and I would quit when he is going forward with a loose rope if it is possible. You have to find a good place to quit because that has never happened with a rider before. If he only goes forward for a few minutes, quit him. Do not pet or praise him. Just leave him alone when he does something good. 

Chances are he will never ride forward from whip or rains laid on his butt. You may be able to teach him to move forward from spurs (if he has not already been spoiled to them) and if they are used lightly with a smooch while he is being moved around with a snubbing horse. 

Come back and let me know if it is possible to do any of these things with him. I've gotta go to bed.
Cherie


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## WSArabians

How's his flexion? 
Can you get him to spin, turn on the forehand, and sidepass from the ground? Those might be something to work on to get him to respond to you appropriately.


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## PunksTank

.Delete. said:


> I'm going to incorporate the idea of clicker training, but not the clicker itself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Personally I use CT, but I use a smooching sound instead so I don't have to carry the silly clicker around.
But you _absolutely_ need to use a bridge sound - do NOT 'treat train'. Please read through that forum if you're interested in it. 'Treat training' is using treats to bribe horses into doing what you want without using a proper bridge. The bridge provides the horse the clear 'yes' signal while you're working.
The best example I can think of right now, teaching a horse to go over a jump. If you give the food to the horse after they go over the jump their assumption is they need to get to the other side of the jump as fast as possible - they may run around it, step over it, run over it clumsily... While if you use a proper bridge you can control which gait they approach the jump at, how neatly they go over the jump, and how calmly they land - or anything else you want them to focus on. When riding you can't feed a horse treats while they're trotting or cantering or jumping - but if you have a proper bridge you can click, the horse will know 'right now I'm doing the right thing' then when you stop you can provide the food reward. You really need to provide a bridge - I like the smooch sound, people just think I kiss my horses a lot xD 
You also need to be sure to provide the proper boundaries before using CT - please read that forum on how to start horses with CT otherwise you'll have a much worse horse on your hands.

I also think working with him at a less busy time might do him some good, if he's so easily worked up by the other horses and people.


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## paintedpastures

I think this horse needs to go back to ground work school. Needs to have some intense long line work done with him . Have him moving off the rail,backing ,roll backs,keep him moving with a smack of the lines.If he trys the rearing thing it is easier there on the ground to disengage & smack him forward out of it.I have a older friend /trainer that is big on use of the long lines & he has them doing everything that they would be doing under saddle.He uses the full arena working them up & down ,in & out all along the fence, two tracking across arena etc.When he gets on the horse they know what it means to move of pressure:wink: He needs more than some simple longing circles & following along behind him with driving lines.You & him need to really workout:lol:Right now he has his own agenda & his focus is not with you,that you have to change:wink:. No dittle daddling in your workout mean business,make him have a job to do! 
The way things are going now in the saddle, sounds like a war of wills & I only see it going to end badly.Play it safer on the ground When he is consistently playing YOUR way then go back & try back in saddle:wink:


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## Copperhead

Cherie said:


> Here I am. Here I am -- for what its worth.
> 
> I've seen horses like this before. More ground work is not going to do any good because he has already figured out the difference between having a rider and not having a rider. You can do groundwork for a year and when he is mounted, it will be just the same as it is now.
> 
> The first horse I got like this was also really spoiled when he was sent to me. He drove so good and rode so badly, I talked the people into trading him to a rancher to use on a team for pulling a feed wagon. He was smaller than is other horses, but pulled with about any of them. So, that one was not much help for figuring out horses like this.
> 
> The next one I got was worse. Drove like a dream but would not ride. Only time I could get forward motion was a runaway bucking fit. Touched his mouth and he went straight up. I got a cowboy friend of mine to snub him to a big ranch gelding. He drug him around a while without me and then we rode out in a big pasture for a couple of hours (like 500 acres). We walked and trotted but did not lope the first time. We snubbed him 3 more times (I think). We started out snubbed. He started letting the rope out longer with me stopping him and moving him around and I started using my legs more. I got him used to spurs and got him moving from them while still of a lead. When he turned me loose he rode a little. I finally got him riding good enough to send home but I was not impressed at all. I had already come to value a willing, trainable disposition.
> 
> The last horses I had like this I put a LOT of pressure on in driving lines. I drove them across big logs they had to jump, drove them between wind-blown tarps hanging on jump standards, beat the crap out of them for sulling up and stalling out and NEVER, NEVER just pecked and nagged at them. If I got after one, I made it hurt and then left him alone when he did anything halfway right. I still snubbed them ecause I did not trust them for rearing for a pretty good while.
> 
> The only one of these horses that was aggressive toward me I laid down and left him there a good while. It surely humbles one to get held or tied down.
> 
> I think one of the things that happens to all of these horses is that they are only punished or gotten after enough to make them mad. Horses that are not willing to start with are better off if you never touch them with a whip. If you ever MUST, it better leave a welt and they better think they are lucky to be alive when you quit.
> 
> People on here have asked me many times why I hate whips and never use them -- it is horses like these that broke me of the habit. These horses and horses that only learned to fear or respect a whip and attacked people when they did not have one are why I never use them.
> 
> If I have to, I will lay a horse down. If I have to go toe to toe with one, I will use a lip chain and try to kill him. It is not a 'pressure and release' thing. It is just plain hurt him so bad that he thinks he is lucky to be alive. Humble him until he drops his head and backs up when he sees you coming. If he turns his butt or does not back up, he is still going to try to get you. Studs are much worse about this.
> 
> If this were my horse, I would break him to pony first. I would use a war bridle, snub him and make him pony on a loose rope. If it took someone behind him with a bullwhip to get him to go forward willingly -- so be it. I would not waste my time with a longe whip or a stock whip. It needs to hurt. Just be sure to back off and not even haze him when he comes up alongside on a loose rope. This horse has never gone forward when he did not want to enough to ever get the reward -- the lack of pressure.
> 
> Next, I would lay him down and tie him there. I would try to get him to act aggressive or do something wrong first. Then, I would sit on him and rub him all over and when he was laying quietly, I would let him up, snub him to good horse and ride him a little. I would not ride in any kind of a pen. It is real likely that he will never ride good in a pen. I would not ride him very long and I would quit when he is going forward with a loose rope if it is possible. You have to find a good place to quit because that has never happened with a rider before. If he only goes forward for a few minutes, quit him. Do not pet or praise him. Just leave him alone when he does something good.
> 
> Chances are he will never ride forward from whip or rains laid on his butt. You may be able to teach him to move forward from spurs (if he has not already been spoiled to them) and if they are used lightly with a smooch while he is being moved around with a snubbing horse.
> 
> Come back and let me know if it is possible to do any of these things with him. I've gotta go to bed.
> Cherie


This ---^

He wants to fight? Show him you're a force he never wants to reckon with again.


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## 4horses

If he is pinning his ears on the ground, than he is still not respecting you. 

Obviously the first "trainer" let him get away with things, but you are also dealing with a young horse. I've seen lots of horses get angry and resentful by confusing training and "confusing" punishments. A horse that rears is not a calm, happy, relaxed, or confident horse. This horse has no trust in people and a great deal of hatred. Yes he may be the dominant horse, but that just makes his case more difficult. A less dominant horse will take abuse/mishandling, confusing signals and submit. A dominant horse will take mishandling with aggression. 

First trainer lets him get away with everything, than you step in and rely on "force" or the whip to make him submit. This obviously makes a very confused horse and the more confused he gets, the more he reacts by rearing or otherwise throwing a tantrum. If pushed beyond their tolerance level, any horse will throw a tantrum. He sounds like a horse with a particularly low tolerance level. 

He simply does not understand what you want, and even if he did (from his viewpoint) there is no reward in doing what you ask. The more you rely on force, the more he is going to hate you/resent you. I do not think he is deliberately fighting you to be mean. He fights you because he does not understand what you are asking, is scared, confused, and probably angry as well. Now he has learned that rearing means getting out of work.

How do you fix this? One method is to use force- yes you can tie him/lay him down and otherwise break his spirit. An alternative method is to go straight back to groundwork and re-start him. This is actually easier than it sounds. All you need to do is fix attitude issues as they appear.

Start with haltering- he must face you in the stall to be haltered.

Start with leading. He must lead at a respectful distance and stop when you stop. With a horse like him I would put a chain on him and carry a lunge whip without the long tassel. You should be able to walk in front of him- he should never pass you. I don't even like a young horse to walk next to me (especially one this unpredictable). Use the whip as a wall in front of him. If he hits the wall tap him and back him up. Make him back and respect your space. 

Any nipping needs to be corrected immediately- I would saddle/brush in the roundpen and if he tries nipping, take the whip and get after him and chase him. When he is tired go straight back to brushing him. I bet he will stand quietly with no one holding him after that. 

Start with lunging- get him to face you when you say whoa. If you point that whip at his hindquarters he should disengage them for you. (both directions). Teach him to sidepass on the ground. Teach him the one rein stop (bending his nose to the stirrup) in the halter and bridle. Teach him to ground drive in both directions. 

After you complete all the above- get on him and just sit and stand. Get off, reward the horse, get back on. Repeat. Lots of hopping on one foot next to him and having him stand still. You want him to be standing with his head down falling asleep by the time you are done. Ask for the nose to the stirrup. release, repeat, both on the ground and under saddle. A good trainer knows how far to push a horse. If he gets anxious about something, go back to something easier. 

As for the rearing, get someone to put a lead on and walk him around the arena. If he takes 2 steps of walking, reward and get off. Don't ask for trotting or cantering. Just ask to walk forward off of leg pressure. This is a good time for treats. (You want to reward anything that is not rearing). Another thing you can do is teach a head down cue. Take a look at endotapping (not the same as the other Endo guy). 





Another good video:





Trying to bronc him out yourself is only going to get you (or someone else hurt). Using force will either result in a broken spirited horse, or one that is so dangerous that you can't do anything with it. The only time I would spank a horse like this is if he tries biting or kicking, then you have 3 seconds to correct. If he gives you attitude- back him up every time as this puts him in a submissive position. 

And please watch some of the clinton anderson videos. His methods would be perfect for a horse like this. 

You need to recognize the warning signs before he flips out. If he tenses his neck/raises his head- whatever those signals are. Do not push him to the point he rears. If you are kicking him for every step than he is not understanding your leg aids (and this may contribute to rearing). He may also be in pain so check his back as well. Definitely use a helper to lead him/lunge him the next few rides. You want to keep him as calm and quiet as possible.


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## Army wife

I would only add, don't start a war you are not willing to win. So if your not willing to fix the rearing problem, don't get on him. Which doesn't sound like the case. Set you and this horse up for success. Cherie's advice was pretty good, basically keep it black and white. And when you discipline, go above and beyond what you would do with a normal horse. I think the same with reward. Accept what you can get in the beginning. Typically, the more you give, the quicker the horse will catch on and want to get his reward. But I'm not sure if this horse is passed that point now. If you fight out a rearing battle and get 3 steps forward, get off and be done. I think that was already said once or twice, but it was the first thing I thought of after about your third response. Good luck, and please be careful.


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## Copperhead

Also, there is no shame in transfering horses if this particular horse is too much. If you can't bring the storm when he starts the dance, transfer off him and have someone else do it.

Extreme caution needs to be exercised here. All this horse wants to do is fight. Eventually he will start fighting to hurt you if its not corrected soon. And correcting this extreme habit is risky enough as it is.

The humbling aspect about training is to know when its someone elses turn to give it a try. Know when to quit, or you could be lining up to get yourself seriously hurt. In a couple years you may have the experience to deal with this, especially since you've seen it before.


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## .Delete.

Cherie said:


> Here I am. Here I am -- for what its worth.
> 
> I've seen horses like this before. More ground work is not going to do any good because he has already figured out the difference between having a rider and not having a rider. You can do groundwork for a year and when he is mounted, it will be just the same as it is now.
> 
> I completely agree, his main goal is get get me out of the saddle. He knows if he rears high enough and frequently enough I will get off (for safety sake). No one has yet to stick to him and ride it out. Which I know I will eventually have to do. I am hoping to get some of the fight out of him before we reach that point of no return.
> 
> The first horse I got like this was also really spoiled when he was sent to me. He drove so good and rode so badly, I talked the people into trading him to a rancher to use on a team for pulling a feed wagon. He was smaller than is other horses, but pulled with about any of them. So, that one was not much help for figuring out horses like this.
> 
> The next one I got was worse. Drove like a dream but would not ride. Only time I could get forward motion was a runaway bucking fit. Touched his mouth and he went straight up. I got a cowboy friend of mine to snub him to a big ranch gelding. He drug him around a while without me and then we rode out in a big pasture for a couple of hours (like 500 acres). We walked and trotted but did not lope the first time. We snubbed him 3 more times (I think). We started out snubbed. He started letting the rope out longer with me stopping him and moving him around and I started using my legs more. I got him used to spurs and got him moving from them while still of a lead. When he turned me loose he rode a little. I finally got him riding good enough to send home but I was not impressed at all. I had already come to value a willing, trainable disposition.
> 
> The last horses I had like this I put a LOT of pressure on in driving lines. I drove them across big logs they had to jump, drove them between wind-blown tarps hanging on jump standards, beat the crap out of them for sulling up and stalling out and NEVER, NEVER just pecked and nagged at them. If I got after one, I made it hurt and then left him alone when he did anything halfway right. I still snubbed them ecause I did not trust them for rearing for a pretty good while.
> 
> Thats how I ground drive him, with alot of pressure, and alot of pull stops, transitions, and more pull stops. We have yet to ride through or around things. Thats a task for today. Everytime he even pauses and thinks about sucking back he gets a good hard whooping.
> 
> The only one of these horses that was aggressive toward me I laid down and left him there a good while. It surely humbles one to get held or tied down.
> 
> I don't know if he has been laid down yet, I will bring that up. I think it would do him good.
> 
> I think one of the things that happens to all of these horses is that they are only punished or gotten after enough to make them mad. Horses that are not willing to start with are better off if you never touch them with a whip. If you ever MUST, it better leave a welt and they better think they are lucky to be alive when you quit.
> 
> People on here have asked me many times why I hate whips and never use them -- it is horses like these that broke me of the habit. These horses and horses that only learned to fear or respect a whip and attacked people when they did not have one are why I never use them.
> 
> If I have to, I will lay a horse down. If I have to go toe to toe with one, I will use a lip chain and try to kill him. It is not a 'pressure and release' thing. It is just plain hurt him so bad that he thinks he is lucky to be alive. Humble him until he drops his head and backs up when he sees you coming. If he turns his butt or does not back up, he is still going to try to get you. Studs are much worse about this.
> 
> I agree 100% that i need to make him feel like he is going to die and is lucky to be alive. He is walking around thinking he runs the place and things are the way he wants them. He needs a serious reality check.
> 
> 
> If this were my horse, I would break him to pony first. I would use a war bridle, snub him and make him pony on a loose rope. If it took someone behind him with a bullwhip to get him to go forward willingly -- so be it. I would not waste my time with a longe whip or a stock whip. It needs to hurt. Just be sure to back off and not even haze him when he comes up alongside on a loose rope. This horse has never gone forward when he did not want to enough to ever get the reward -- the lack of pressure.
> 
> He has been ponied quite alot. They will not let me pony with a war bridle, god knows he needs it. He is very resistant and rears quite alot.
> 
> Next, I would lay him down and tie him there. I would try to get him to act aggressive or do something wrong first. Then, I would sit on him and rub him all over and when he was laying quietly, I would let him up, snub him to good horse and ride him a little. I would not ride in any kind of a pen. It is real likely that he will never ride good in a pen. I would not ride him very long and I would quit when he is going forward with a loose rope if it is possible. You have to find a good place to quit because that has never happened with a rider before. If he only goes forward for a few minutes, quit him. Do not pet or praise him. Just leave him alone when he does something good.
> 
> Chances are he will never ride forward from whip or rains laid on his butt. You may be able to teach him to move forward from spurs (if he has not already been spoiled to them) and if they are used lightly with a smooch while he is being moved around with a snubbing horse.
> 
> Come back and let me know if it is possible to do any of these things with him. I've gotta go to bed.
> Cherie


Thank you for the input! I always enjoy your posts



PunksTank said:


> Personally I use CT, but I use a smooching sound instead so I don't have to carry the silly clicker around.
> But you _absolutely_ need to use a bridge sound - do NOT 'treat train'. Please read through that forum if you're interested in it. 'Treat training' is using treats to bribe horses into doing what you want without using a proper bridge. The bridge provides the horse the clear 'yes' signal while you're working.
> The best example I can think of right now, teaching a horse to go over a jump. If you give the food to the horse after they go over the jump their assumption is they need to get to the other side of the jump as fast as possible - they may run around it, step over it, run over it clumsily... While if you use a proper bridge you can control which gait they approach the jump at, how neatly they go over the jump, and how calmly they land - or anything else you want them to focus on. When riding you can't feed a horse treats while they're trotting or cantering or jumping - but if you have a proper bridge you can click, the horse will know 'right now I'm doing the right thing' then when you stop you can provide the food reward. You really need to provide a bridge - I like the smooch sound, people just think I kiss my horses a lot xD
> You also need to be sure to provide the proper boundaries before using CT - please read that forum on how to start horses with CT otherwise you'll have a much worse horse on your hands.
> 
> I also think working with him at a less busy time might do him some good, if he's so easily worked up by the other horses and people.


Don't worry, If i lean towards CT i will do my homework before i execute it. 



Copperhead said:


> Also, there is no shame in transfering horses if this particular horse is too much. If you can't bring the storm when he starts the dance, transfer off him and have someone else do it.
> 
> Extreme caution needs to be exercised here. All this horse wants to do is fight. Eventually he will start fighting to hurt you if its not corrected soon. And correcting this extreme habit is risky enough as it is.
> 
> The humbling aspect about training is to know when its someone elses turn to give it a try. Know when to quit, or you could be lining up to get yourself seriously hurt. In a couple years you may have the experience to deal with this, especially since you've seen it before.


I have no problem in saying I am in over my head. I have almost done it a few times, they like to give me the problem horses other people cannot ride. I have had 4 problem horses since passed year, one being that HUS horse i posted a sale video of on here. I almost gave him up multiple times. He put me in the hospital last semester :?

I don't want to be put in the hospital again. This is my last semester at the barn and I don't want to start a new major in a cast or worse. I have no shame in saying "I can't handle this maybe someone else can". Im not magical, Im not Endo, and Im certainly not a horse whisperer. I am just a girl who has a decent seat and good work ethic. 

I have to admit tho, I am the only junior assigned to fix a senior's problem. Makes me feel pretty good about myself.

I wish I could upload photos and videos for you guys, so you could really see whats going on. As well as any progress we might be making.


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## palogal

He sound to me like he's simply not trained to ride. Rearing is a sign of frustration and confusion as is bucking. The striking and such needs to be corrected quickly and firmly.

So, if you can, I would turn him out for a week or two and leave him alone. Then after that, catch him and start over from "whoa" on the ground and see what you have.


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## .Delete.

palogal said:


> He sound to me like he's simply not trained to ride. Rearing is a sign of frustration and confusion as is bucking. The striking and such needs to be corrected quickly and firmly.
> 
> So, if you can, I would turn him out for a week or two and leave him alone. Then after that, catch him and start over from "whoa" on the ground and see what you have.


Rearing can also be a sign of being naughty. I don't think he is confused in all honesty. I think he doesn't want to work and this is how he reacts because its worked before. He has been riding for a month, and everytime he sucked back and refused to go forward, she would either get off or let him walk around. He has always gotten his way up till this point.


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## Foxtail Ranch

I will be looking for your updates!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rookie

so, I hate to kick a hornets nest and if the question is not germane to situation thats fine. I have to ask what is the end game for this horse? Is he going to be sold at the end of the year? to who? is this horse smart/pretty/talented or just plan special enough to be worth your safety? If it is go for it and go with grace. 

I just feel like you have been put in the position of working a near miracle in what ends up being about 3 months of the school year. I feel like a horse that is not used to common aids and is so violent for lack of a better word is perhaps not worth keeping around. Particularly as a student where you are paying to deal with this horse. I think there is merit is saying "no". 

It seems like the horse is a liability for the school and has an established history of unreliable if not dangerous behavior. Which could open them up to a law suit. There are a lot of nice and willing horses out there. Why waste time/energy/feed on a horse that shows no great talent and a lot of unwillingness? The previous student may have monkeyed around but there are a lot of horses out there that can handle that kind of monkeying and still be willing and safe partners. 

I am just confused by what make this so horse so special?


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## Red Cedar Farm

This really isn't all that complicated. First and foremost, have him thoroughly vetted. If the vet clears him, then you will need to start from square one, beginning with ground work. Forget riding him right now...Treat him as if he's never had a day of training or handling in his life prior to this. This colt needs a total do over from the damage the previous girl has created with him, using clear communication, setting clear boundaries, and no if's and's or but's accepted.
He needs to learn respect, and you need to get 100% compliance from the ground before you try to get back up on him. He's young, so with proper handling, he has a chance of coming around.


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## Dustbunny

Rookie just posted my thoughts.
This is such a young horse to be having these issues. If I remember the OP's first post, he is 2. And since it's the end of Feb., he's just 2 or not 2 yet. Where did he come from? Do you have past history available (not counting the last handler)?
I wish you the best because it sounds like your success will be important in his development...and future. Just stay safe but back away if you feel it's too much. I hope the school has a decent Plan B .


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## EquineBovine

I haven't read the whole post (got to get to work sorry) but to me it sounds like a sore back. Any chance you can get him checked? Good luck and I'll read the rest when I get home


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## FeatheredFeet

Forget riding this youngster. *ONLY*, when he has been restarted and is absolutely reliable and behaving like a gentleman on the ground, should any more saddle training be considered. It sounds to me, as though no training was properly done and people were too anxious to get on his back when he had no solid groundwork and was too young. 

If he's not gelded, do it now, give him a little while off and start as you would with a horse or colt who had never been trained or handled. Remember, you will never hurt him as much as an alpha mare would, if he would do the same to her. Do not punish if he possibly doesn't understand what is being asked of him. Remember also, to praise each time he does something correctly. Short lessons at first and end on a good note. Do not give him treats after lessons or putting him away, or he will try to end lessons quickly for the treats. Start small, even if it is just leading him up and down a barn aisle a couple of time. Make sure he is getting enough exercise at liberty. Make sure you are not using feed which is making him even more hot. Use a soft voice and a 'good boy', when he does something asked of him. Use a really loud voice to scold. Animals do not like yelling or humans appearing out of control. Remember, the three second rule - always. Then it is over. He absolutely must know that you are consistent. Anything else, will confuse him. 

I feel for you. I really do. If you feel you are not experienced enough to properly start and train this boy, get a pro trainer. It might be that you will have to do that or find him a home with someone more knowledgeable. 

Lizzie


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> Then perhaps he needs more motivation and you should look into alternative training styles. If that's not your thing then you just gotta keep at it. I think you have a plan and you'll just have to see how things go after a couple months of restarting. I'm sure you'll find some troubles with his ground work, fixing that will surely help this.


Haven't finished reading the thread yet, but if no one (like PunksTank) has mentioned it, he might be a good candidate for clicker training? He sounds very smart and like he'd catch on, plus it might be a much more motivating and positive training experience for him.

EDIT - I kept reading and found PT did bring it up. And, as PT also mentioned, I don't think getting laughed at is something to worry about because you could potentially save yours and the horse's life by turning this behavior around with some positive reinforcement. Finally, you absolutely DO need a bridge sound (clicker or otherwise), so I'm glad the OP mentioned they would be doing their research about it before trying it. Though, I really think it could help with this horse. That, and giving the horse some time to grow up a little before riding again could help, too.


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## 4horses

Please be careful with how much force you decide to use on this horse. 

I was at a university with a bunch of cowboy types. Their idea was to beat the horse if it misbehaved. Young horse was afraid to get out of horse trailer, instead of giving the horse time to get comfortable, their idea was to beat the horse out with the whip. The same with everything else. The motto was "refusal is not an option". Even if that refusal was due to confusion. 

This was not how I was taught to train a horse. I was taught Dressage/ natural horsemanship and on the appropriate use of timed release. The horse I was given was a weanling when I started. She was perfect for me except for the usual baby mistakes. I could do anything with her, clean/trim her feet, put a saddle on her, girth, lean on her back. Anything I wanted with no issues. Every time my instructor came out, she tried to bite him. For farrier work she would rear up with him, he would hit her, and she would get worse and worse. Yet I could do anything with her. She would fall asleep while I cleaned her feet. At the end of her 2 year old year they wanted $4000- the top horse of the class. It just proves that force will not get you the results you want. 

There are only 3 circumstances where I will hit a horse- if the horse bites me, tries to kick me, or charges me. Hesitation is allowed, confusion is allowed, mistakes are allowed. I will tap if the horse gets in my space, but I rarely need to use more force than that. Unless this horse is aggressively going at you during groundwork, or rearing, you should not need to whip him. If someone hits you and you don't understand why, how will you feel? I bet it won't take long for you to hate that person. 

One thing I have noticed about all horses is that the more you rough handle them, the more they will fight you. I left college feeling like my instructors where fools- they just did not understand that there is a better way. 

You need to forget about a time table and take this horse back to stage one. If you develop his trust in you and get him to stand calmly you will get a lot further than using any type of force. This is a baby- I doubt he is a born killer who is out for blood. 

Teach him to drop his head, build a foundation (as his training sounds like it has a lot of holes), and get him to the point where he trusts you and is not expecting to get hit for every little mistake. (If he does rear drive him forward and work him- just don't be too harsh). Being too harsh is just as bad as being too lenient. 

Stop comparing yourself to the rest of your class- if you can get him to walk with a rider by the end of the year (with no rearing), than you are doing well. 

I would consider pain issues as well. My personal mare has stifle issues and bucks every time you canter her. Anyone else (who did not know her) and didn't know what the vet said, would immediately assume she is misbehaving. I know another horse who bucks under saddle- he had back issues and is now being trained as a driving horse and doing very well. My friends horse had jaw issues that resulted in him being lame. Do not discount that this horse may have pain somewhere. Did anyone ever check him for pinching spine/withers?


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## FeatheredFeet

I don't see that anyone here, has condoned or even suggested, beating the horse, 4horses. What we have said, is that ...
Nobody should be even saddling this horse yet, let alone trying to ride him. He's not ready.
As the post heading says, he's a baby. Certainly there are some horses which have been started properly, who can be ridden as two year olds.
Any horse or whatever age, MUST be quickly (3 second rule) reprimanded for dangerous behaviour. The type of reprimand, according to age of course.
I might have missed what breed of horse this is, but as a two year old, most horses are much larger than that which the average human can deal with, if bitten, kicked, reared up on or attacked. The human will always come out the worse for wear, hurt badly or even killed. So, carrying a short, hard riding crop, must be used and quickly. The human cannot back down or the horse will do it over and over again. This is learned behavior. Nobody has even suggested that the horse is beaten or treated as we see in old cowboy movies. Those days of horse training has long gone.

What I have seen in recent years, is many who have a completely incorrect idea of what 'natural horsemanship' or 'natural training' is. I've seen it in dogs too. It does not mean forgiving dangerous moves or attacks, with a soft little voice and/or ignoring it or leaving the area. 

We cannot take his toys away from this horse, or send him to his room without his computer and TV. We must instantly give him the message - just as an alpha mare would, that we will never back down, he WILL be made to move out of our space and we are not afraid of his antics. This is 'natural'. This is what an alpha (mostly a mare) does. She might even draw blood. We humans don't need to draw blood, but we can make an aggressive horse think twice before trying it again. 

Lizzie


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## .Delete.

*UPDATE:*


I arrived at the barn today with a goal of not letting even think about getting nasty towards me. 

I started off the day with the basics, correcting what needed to be corrected as we went along. I made him back off the stall door when i entered, I got after him when he tried to bite etc. 

We ground drove for about a half an hour. Then we front leg hobbled him. I pulled him off his feet for about 15 minutes both directions. Then I laid him down and sat on his head twice on both sides. He gave up ALOT quicker than I expected when I laid him down. When he got up I proceeded to pull him off his front feet again for a while. My goal was to get him exhausted so he didn't even think about rearing when I got on. 

When I got on I had a plan, If he rears he is getting flipped over. I had my inside foot in the stirrup and my outside foot free ready to bail. I kept his bent to the inside the whole time. I wasn't about to give him the opportunity to straight up and rear. I had a teacher following me with a whip. He thought about rearing quite a few times and he was aggressively drove forward every time. We jogged in little circles and bounced around the arena. By the end of our session he was going forward of MY legs and MY cues not the person with the whip. My releases/rewards were exaggerated to let him know he chose the right answer. 

He did not rear once (mainly because I didn't let him), he was moving off my legs when asked without even thinking about sucking back. So i stopped him, praised him like he just won the Kentucky derby and got off. He had a completely different look in his eye when I got off. We ended on a good note in the saddle. By my standards *I won today*


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## palogal

Sorry. No, you didn't win. You chased him and dominated him to the point of exhaustion and hopped on him when he was to tired to fight. This is not correct training and also inhumane in my opinion. You were not kind to this animal at all. Just MO of course but this was not a good experience with the horse even if it gave you something to pound your chest about.


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## Foxtail Ranch

Hurray! Well done!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LynnF

Great job! Sometimes laying them down is a great tool when done properly in the right setting.


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## .Delete.

palogal said:


> Sorry. No, you didn't win. You chased him and dominated him to the point of exhaustion and hopped on him when he was to tired to fight. This is not correct training and also inhumane in my opinion. You were not kind to this animal at all. Just MO of course but this was not a good experience with the horse even if it gave you something to pound your chest about.


The kind of attitude you're putting off towards my method is exactly the reason why he is the way he is. The girl that broke him out was "kind". 

I am being as nasty as he is. He bites, i bite harder, he rears, he gets worked harder. 

Good experience? No, its not supposed to be a good experience its supposed to be a lesson. A hard lesson learned at that one.


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## palogal

Good luck to you. Be safe.


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## .Delete.

palogal said:


> Sorry. No, you didn't win. *You chased him and dominated him to the point of exhaustion and hopped on him when he was to tired to fight. *This is not correct training and also inhumane in my opinion. You were not kind to this animal at all. Just MO of course but this was not a good experience with the horse even if it gave you something to pound your chest about.


Btw that was EXACTLY what i going for. Its either him dominating me or me dominating him. 

For the record he was not too tired to fight. As i said in the update he tried to rear several times even after all that homework i did. I was not mean to him, I only whooped on him when he needed it. I rewarded him when he was good. 

HE takes it to this point not me. I am only going as far as he wants to take it.


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## palogal

We will agree to disagree. This kind of training generally leads to a disaster. Having fixed several horses with his behavior, I promise you - aggression is not the way to train him. He will find new ways to misbehave more aggressively and more dangerously unless you stop forcing him to do things and train him to want to do them. 

So as I said, good luck. Be safe, you got lucky this time and he didn't hurt you.


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## .Delete.

palogal said:


> We will agree to disagree. This kind of training generally leads to a disaster. Having fixed several horses with his behavior, I promise you - aggression is not the way to train him. He will find new ways to misbehave more aggressively and more dangerously unless you stop forcing him to do things and train him to want to do them.
> 
> So as I said, good luck. Be safe, you got lucky this time and he didn't hurt you.


I'm curious, how would you fix this problem? I don't mean that in a rude way I'm genuinely curious.


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## palogal

Well horses are prey animals. Not predators. This one is acting like a predator which means he's confused and frustrated. Think of it like smacking the snot out of a tiger, what is he going to do? He's going to get up and kick your ***.

This horse needs to be started over and rewarded for doing things right. He needs to learn to WANT to do things right. He needs to be encouraged to be brave and think before he reacts. The rearing and other behaviors he is showing are reactions to something. He probably was started too quickly with someone that was unskilled and inconsistent. So he doesn't know what the 'right answer' is. And if every time he answers it's wrong and he gets corrected but has no idea why, he's going to react violently in self preservation.

What *I* would do with this horse is re start him and when it's time to ride him have a ground handler to give him some security at first, then have someone lunge a rider and then phase out the ground handler all together.

You need to heal his hurt, and move him forward, not make his hurt worse and make him angry.


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## Reno Bay

palogal said:


> Well horses are prey animals. Not predators. This one is acting like a predator which means he's confused and frustrated. Think of it like smacking the snot out of a tiger, what is he going to do? He's going to get up and kick your ***.
> 
> This horse needs to be started over and rewarded for doing things right. He needs to learn to WANT to do things right. He needs to be encouraged to be brave and think before he reacts. The rearing and other behaviors he is showing are reactions to something. He probably was started too quickly with someone that was unskilled and inconsistent. So he doesn't know what the 'right answer' is. And if every time he answers it's wrong and he gets corrected but has no idea why, he's going to react violently in self preservation.
> 
> What *I* would do with this horse is re start him and when it's time to ride him have a ground handler to give him some security at first, then have someone lunge a rider and then phase out the ground handler all together.
> 
> You need to heal his hurt, and move him forward, not make his hurt worse and make him angry.


Perhaps starting him over would help and perhaps it wouldn't. This horse may be too far gone in the wrong direction to just take aside and say "forget everything this other person did, we're starting over this way." From what the OP said about her successful day, the horse was not exhausted, but was taught (at least for that time) who really IS the boss out of the two of them...surprise surprise, not him.

I smack my horse in the side of the nose if he tries to bite me...is that inhumane? Horses out in the field do worse to each other (one day I found two perfectly matched scars on my boy's neck from where one of his buddies double-barreled him...not pretty...not "nice"...but effective).


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## palogal

Reno Bay said:


> Perhaps starting him over would help and perhaps it wouldn't. This horse may be too far gone in the wrong direction to just take aside and say "forget everything this other person did, we're starting over this way." From what the OP said about her successful day, the horse was not exhausted, but was taught (at least for that time) who really IS the boss out of the two of them...surprise surprise, not him.
> 
> *I smack my horse in the side of the nose if he tries to bite me*...is that inhumane? Horses out in the field do worse to each other (one day I found two perfectly matched scars on my boy's neck from where one of his buddies double-barreled him...not pretty...not "nice"...but effective).


*Absolutely not, but why is he biting you?*
The whole herd argument drives me nuts. Humans are not horses. We are not alpha mares or any other cute little metaphor. 

A human is a leader, that a prey animal has to accept and trust. A human must give the horse confidence and teach them to do things that do not come naturally to them. Period. Horses in a herd also poop anywhere they like, humans do not.


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## LynnF

If a horse becomes to a point where he is this dangerous I see only two options, do what the OP did and break him down to where he realizes you are the boss no matter what, or euthanize. I believe the OP is handling this horse how he needs to be handled, he is too far gone to be handled with kid gloves.
If a horse is handled correctly it should never get to this point but some horses are just so spoiled or just plain aggressive that normal training will not work. I had a horse like this, he had gone through multiple trainers and was going to slaughter, I decided to give him one more chance and after months of trying everything and anything I could think of and anything that was recommended to me I took him out back and shot him. He was too dangerous and had been let get away with too much to ever go back.


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## .Delete.

palogal said:


> *Absolutely not, but why is he biting you?*
> The whole herd argument drives me nuts. Humans are not horses. We are not alpha mares or any other cute little metaphor.
> 
> A human is a leader, that a prey animal has to accept and trust. A human must give the horse confidence and teach them to do things that do not come naturally to them. Period. Horses in a herd also poop anywhere they like, humans do not.


I think you're taking the herd theory a little too literal. Horses learn who is dominant by force, whoever doesn't back down is the leader. Why would it be any different with humans? We analyze how horses communicate with each other, and use that to our advantage. 

This horse tests me, this horse thinks he is dominant over me. Why? Because he got away with naughty behavior. Now I'm faced with a naughty horse, not a confused horse.


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## palogal

As I said, I wish her the best. This will not end well.


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## palogal

.Delete. said:


> I think you're taking the herd theory a little too literal. Horses learn who is dominant by force, whoever doesn't back down is the leader. Why would it be any different with humans? We analyze how horses communicate with each other, and use that to our advantage.
> 
> This horse tests me, this horse thinks he is dominant over me. Why? Because he got away with naughty behavior. Now I'm faced with a naughty horse, not a confused horse.


He's a baby right? He has not been taught correctly. He's not testing you, he's protecting himself.
There is a huge difference. I am the first one to teach a horse that knows better, a lesson- as aggressively as necessary. I will knock the fire out of a horse that knows correct behavior and chooses something else.
He does not know correct behavior. You said yourself he was not broke properly. He doesn't know and you're punishing him for not knowing.


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## .Delete.

palogal said:


> As I said, I wish her the best. This will not end well.


I mean this in the nicest way possible. 

Im going to prove you wrong.


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## palogal

LynnF said:


> If a horse becomes to a point where he is this dangerous I see only two options, do what the OP did and break him down to where he realizes you are the boss no matter what, or euthanize. I believe the OP is handling this horse how he needs to be handled, he is too far gone to be handled with kid gloves.
> If a horse is handled correctly it should never get to this point but some horses are just so spoiled or just plain aggressive that normal training will not work. I had a horse like this, he had gone through multiple trainers and was going to slaughter, I decided to give him one more chance and after months of trying everything and anything I could think of and anything that was recommended to me I took him out back and shot him. He was too dangerous and had been let get away with too much to ever go back.


 
He's a baby.


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## palogal

Not to mention how dangerous it is to put a two year old on the ground, hobble etc. You really could have hurt him.


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## .Delete.

palogal said:


> Not to mention how dangerous it is to put a two year old on the ground, hobble etc. You really could have hurt him.


And he really could and still could hurt me or anyone else. He is a danger to himself and others around him. 

Like i said, I am only as nasty as he is.


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## palogal

We're not getting anywhere. 
This is a BABY. You are going about this completely wrong. You have an opportunity to do right by him and train him properly. I'm glad to help, if you will listen. You're not interested in doing it correctly and that's your prerogative. As I said, good luck to you and be safe.


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## farmpony84

palogal said:


> As I said, I wish her the best. This will not end well.


If this were an inexperienced rider posting this topic I would be inclined to agree. I tossed out a couple things that I had done with my gelding twenty years ago but can not really offer advice because as I stated, I never did "cure" him of the habit.

I went to several trainers who all basically turned me away because in their eyes the horse was dangerous. I was dumped by several farriers because he would rear and strike at them. I loved my horse then but I was young and dumb and never did see the amount of danger he put me and the people around me in. The OP completely understands the dangers. This wasn't caused by her, it was caused by the person that started the horse, she allowed a lot of holes in his training and in doing so, left a dangerous mess for someone else to clean up. 

In a situation like this, a person has to be a little bit aggressive....

PS.... I still love my rearer.... I really do. He taught me so much....


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## RunWalk

So, don't you guys have any supervision?


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## .Delete.

RunWalk said:


> So, don't you guys have any supervision?


Haha, yes. I am only allowed to ride him when a teacher is helping me.


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## .Delete.

palogal said:


> We're not getting anywhere.
> This is a BABY. You are going about this completely wrong. You have an opportunity to do right by him and train him properly. I'm glad to help, if you will listen. You're not interested in doing it correctly and that's your prerogative. As I said, good luck to you and be safe.


As i said, I am going to prove you wrong.


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## FeatheredFeet

I'm tending to think, that although the OP has asked for help here, he/she will go his/her own way, still not restart this young horse with the basics, still insist on riding him when obviously not ready for it etc. etc. To me, this is now using typical 'old cowboy' ways on a youngster. 

Lizzie


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## palogal

FeatheredFeet said:


> I'm tending to think, that although the OP has asked for help here, he/she will go his/her own way, still not restart this young horse with the basics, still insist on riding him when obviously not ready for it etc. etc. To me, this is now using typical 'old cowboy' ways on a youngster.
> 
> Lizzie


I agree. The scary part is the teacher is allowing it.


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## .Delete.

FeatheredFeet said:


> I'm tending to think, that although the OP has asked for help here, he/she will go his/her own way, still not restart this young horse with the basics, still insist on riding him when obviously not ready for it etc. etc. To me, this is now using typical 'old cowboy' ways on a youngster.
> 
> Lizzie


You have to understand because this is not my horse and because I ride at a university i am restricted. I cannot just stop riding him, thats not how it works. I can do all the ground work i please but I cannot stop riding him. I am required to ride all my horses. If I don't ride him someone else will, at least with me I know he is in good hands. I take very good care of him, I am not spiteful or hateful towards him (as i know some other riders would be). 

Believe it or not i DO listen to what you guys have to say. I keep a very open mind and will try almost anything. But this is not my horse or my barn. I have rules i have to follow, i have bosses. Most of all i have a time restraint. I have till May to get as far as i can with this horse.


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## tinyliny

The OP was given an entire library of advice, from A to Z. She has been a respectful listener all along. It is impossible for her to utilize all the advice, as much of it is conflicting. I do not in any way think she has been ignoring the opinions and advice posted her. She is listening, and trialing some new things. 
She is not a newby and not closed minded. I think , considering her youth, she is doing a great job. I would have walked away long ago.


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## palogal

.Delete. said:


> You have to understand because this is not my horse and because I ride at a university i am restricted. I cannot just stop riding him, thats not how it works. I can do all the ground work i please but I cannot stop riding him. I am required to ride all my horses. If I don't ride him someone else will, at least with me I know he is in good hands. I take very good care of him, I am not spiteful or hateful towards him (as i know some other riders would be).
> 
> Believe it or not i DO listen to what you guys have to say. I keep a very open mind and will try almost anything. But this is not my horse or my barn. I have rules i have to follow, i have bosses. Most of all i have a time restraint. I have till May to get as far as i can with this horse.


If you start him over and start him properly, you will get farther than the route you are taking.


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## FeatheredFeet

Which University is this, where they demand you ride an obviously untrained and not ready, two year old? Who is this teacher? Do your parents know they are putting you in obvious danger? Do they know that this supposed teacher, is not competent to actually be a teacher/trainer? I am truly shocked. 

And after May, what happens? Some other person/student not qualified, takes over this poor horse and under the tutelage of this 'teacher'? 

Lizzie


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## palogal

FeatheredFeet said:


> Which University is this, where they demand you ride an obviously untrained and not ready, two year old? Who is this teacher? Do your parents know they are putting you in obvious danger? Do they know that this supposed teacher, is not competent to actually be a teacher/trainer? I am truly shocked.
> 
> And after May, what happens? Some other person/student not qualified, takes over this poor horse and under the tutelage of this 'teacher'?
> 
> Lizzie


No kidding. No child of mine would be doing this kind of nonsense. the OP does not realize she is IN DANGER. Real danger and it's unnecessary, very preventable danger.


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## .Delete.

palogal said:


> If you start him over and start him properly, you will get farther than the route you are taking.


Ok ok. I get that you think I am going about this all wrong you have said it 3 different ways already. Doesn't matter if you say it 100 more different ways. I have limitations that are beyond my control and that is one of them Palogal. So really, you don't have to say it anymore. I understand.


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## Horsesdontlie

palogal said:


> No kidding. No child of mine would be doing this kind of nonsense. the OP does not realize she is IN DANGER. Real danger and it's unnecessary, very preventable danger.


I almost find it insulting of the concept to think that this horse could undoubtingly be fixed with retraining from scratch. You can't undo what has been done. Maybe the horse would work with a retraining, but also maybe it wouldn't. Doesn't matter if it's a baby or not. Not every horse can be fixed this way and I'm sure to think that the trainers and teachers .delete. is working with would be able to notice a horse that merely isn't mentally stable for riding yet as opposed to one that is acting aggressive for the sake of dominance and has been spoiled.


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## .Delete.

FeatheredFeet said:


> Which University is this, where they demand you ride an obviously untrained and not ready, two year old? Who is this teacher? Do your parents know they are putting you in obvious danger? Do they know that this supposed teacher, is not competent to actually be a teacher/trainer? I am truly shocked.
> 
> And after May, what happens? Some other person/student not qualified, takes over this poor horse and under the tutelage of this 'teacher'?
> 
> Lizzie


To each is own, really. 

I am not disclosing any more information about this horse for privacy sake. I presented a behavioral situation and asked for advice. You gave me advice and i do not disagree with you! Im sure that would work with any number of horses. There are 10 ways to skin the same cat. You have your way, they have theirs. Just because its not your way of doing it doesn't make it wrong.


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## palogal

You don't understand. You are putting yourself in danger. The horse too, but I couldn't care less about the horse, honestly. You are putting yourself in a position to be flipped over on and stomped into the ground and possibly killed by an angry, scared animal.


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## .Delete.

palogal said:


> No kidding. No child of mine would be doing this kind of nonsense. the OP does not realize she is IN DANGER. Real danger and it's unnecessary, very preventable danger.


On the contrary. I completely understand what kind of danger I am in. 

Mind you, I am 22 and 100% living on my own. A child to some maybe, but old enough to make my own decisions. If my father tried to stop me, I'd slap my student loans in his face. If he wants to pay I will do what he wants. But so far thats not the case, so i put my big girl panties on everyday and make my own decisions.


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## .Delete.

palogal said:


> You don't understand. You are putting yourself in danger. The horse too, but I couldn't care less about the horse, honestly. You are putting yourself in a position to be flipped over on and stomped into the ground and possibly killed by an angry, scared animal.


:?

I find this argument really repetitive. I respect your opinion Palogal but you're not going to persuade me. Thus far my method has worked, if he starts going backwards i will try other alternatives. Horse training is trial and error especially with problem horses.


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## palogal

Ok but do you realize you may be graduating in a wheelchair? or a coffin? IJS. And that is my last comment on this thread. I really do wish you the best of luck and feel free to message me if you want help.


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## FeatheredFeet

I hope you live long enough, to pay off your student loans. :wink:

Lizzie


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## COWCHICK77

Delete, I applaud your bold efforts to do something with this colt and standing up for your method.

In my opinion you are on the right track. No amount of being nice to a horse that was already babied and given into is going to fix his habit. And no huge amount of ground work is going to fix rearing with a rider. He has obviously learned by "upping the anti" he can win. Someone has to be willing to match and raise.(sorry for the lame poker reference...LOL)

I have dealt with these types before and have not hesitated to throw one down. The key is the _position and timing_. After 20+ years I have yet to injure a horse or myself doing so. And it has solved the issue every time. Matter of fact I own a horse right now that had a nasty habit of running off and trying to jump out of an arena and or run off and sull up in a corner pinning your leg and threaten to rear when asked to move forward, I promise he no longer does it.

Just because someone throws a horse, it does not mean there is no retraining involved, it is not a short cut. It is a way to interupt the habit to create thinking rather than reacting out of habit, especially if you can time the throwing well enough for the horse to think he did it to himself.(which is the whole idea). 
Also if someone knows anything about a Running W, have them show you how to use it properly.


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## paintedpastures

This is a young horse with an attitude,but believe also young confused mind that acts out in frustration of not knowing what is wanted of him:?. Agree he needs a firm & consistent approach{something he wasn't getting}. Don't agree with any bullying force/break his spirit approach in training with this horse or any for that matter:-(,seen what that can do to ruin a young horse & people getting hurt. I think 4horses gave some good advice in this thread. I think the OP has been given alot to think about in how to approach this horse.I believe she has the training /riding ability to get the job done, once she figures out the right methods to use with this horse.


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## COWCHICK77

This colt has been rewarded for his "bullying" by the rider getting off when he throws a fit.
Throwing a horse is not breaking his spirit, it is breaking the habit/pattern.


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## 4horses

Sounds like this university is very similar to the one I went too. One of the reasons why I stopped taking equine classes there was for reasons precisely like this one. 

Instead of being taught properly the horses were pushed along with no preparation, when issues showed up the horses were manhandled and pushed/punished. I will never agree with that kind of training. They had students injured- one severely sliced her hand open in the farrier class because none of their horses would stand for the farrier (due to rough handling). One student lost her hand- it was severed. Students were not properly supervised during training etc... 

Delete- I know you are only doing what you have been taught, but there are better ways. I hope one day you learn better. I also hope you are not seriously injured during this learning process. All it takes is one bad fall to ruin your riding career/life. I knew a girl who was flipped over on and died. You think it won't happen to you- It can. You may get by on luck but if you do this long enough that luck will run out. 

You may have taught him you can force him to do something, but where was the trust in any of this? Do you think that horse trusts you? How do you know this horse will not explode on you in the future? 

Also, a good instructor would not put a student on a horse like that and risk their life! If you asked me to get on that horse without fixing his training and gaining that horse's trust and respect on the ground, I would say no way in hell. I would not be riding that horse until he is 100% respectful on the ground. It sounds to me they are training for profit, and not with the good of the horse or student in mind. 

I feel sorry for you because this is supposed to be about your education. If it were me I would be walking away and finding a better trainer. Or I would refuse to ride that horse, and let someone else be the one to get hurt. My original trainer who is now deceased used to re-train ex-racehorses into hunter/jumpers. Plenty of those horses had rearing issues and I never saw her do anything like you are describing. :-(


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## usandpets

.Delete. said:


> Thats just our problem. I DO get after him like hell is rising every time he shows an ounce of dis-respect. But he still walks around with a smirk on his face. Perhaps I need more and more ground work. But generally with ground driving, lunging, etc he behaves BUT has an attitude about it. He will do it but will have an :? attitude. That attitude is what needs to be eliminated. You will think you're winning on the ground, then hop on and his front legs spend more time in the air than on the ground.


I've only read the first page so far so excuse me if someone pointed this out. I had to comment before I read on. 

He behaves but has attitude about it? He tolerates you and does not respect you. No respect on the ground leads to no respect in the saddle. 

Have you checked out Clinton Anderson? It doesn't matter how much you ground drive or lunge a horse. If you just have the horse go thru the motions or just go in circles, you won't get respect. Check out Clinton's Lunging for Respect video.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## .Delete.

I am on my phone so I cannot reply to everyone in length. But like I said, there are 10 ways to skin the same cat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EquineBovine

Hey I think I got swept away with all the bickering but has his back been checked? Just a thought. When my mare gets ****ty with me and throws a wobbly it's usually cause she's sore. 
I totally agree about 'getting after them'. I do! You want to bite me, I'll bite you right back. I don't agree with beating and I don't agree with pussyfooting around. No one way is the right way, every horse is different. 
Good luck!


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## Animallover707

sorry i didnt read much.pain could be an option. The previous trainer could be another. I had the same problem....with a 16 year old. A lady had got him and thought 'they could learn together' when he was a 2 year old. She rode him 5 times in 15 years, and had done a lot of ground work with him but he ended up hurting her a lot. In the end she locked him in a stall, never cleaned it, never took care of him, and he went without food for lengths on end. When i got him he had a MAJOR attitude, was super skinny, and could barely walk from abcesses in his feet. 
We started all over. completly as if he was wild. I walked him all over making sure he listened to me AT ALL TIMES, but just walking around. then he learned to stand tied(Several hours sometimes), and i started teaching him respect, ill admit i had to be harsh sometimes(Never beat/ hurt him, just made him do as i asked), but in the end he became a way better, happier horse. 
We worked on the tiniest things, over and over, we only worked for small amounts of time(if he was listening) so that he would not get angry. I would free lunge him until he would follow me around, which he picked up on fast that if he behaved the lesson ended faster. He learned that when he wasnt following me, or wasnt paying attention or respecting me, i was forcing him to run, which put me in a dominant position. sure he charged me, he tried to kick me, he tried to run me over(actually did several times), but i didnt quit unless he knew i was in charge. He eventually would follow me around every time i went over there. Because i started at the begining i never had a problem when i rode him except once i spooked him and he bucked for a second and then realized what was going on. If you cannot handle him find someone to help you. i wish you the best of luck.


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## Army wife

palogal said:


> You don't understand. You are putting yourself in danger. The horse too, but I couldn't care less about the horse, honestly. You are putting yourself in a position to be flipped over on and stomped into the ground and possibly killed by an angry, scared animal.


You could say this on any of the training threads. My mare flipped over on me once. NEVER had she reared, not even playing out in the pasture. She just isn't a rearer. 

OP, I think you did fine. Like you said earlier, he never would let you give him the chance to be good and find the right answer. Maybe this is what you had to do in order to show him what is right. He knows what is wrong I think. Yes, this horse is 2, but he wasn't born yesterday. He isn't that young, he is plenty old enough to know what is right and wrong. 
No one ever wants to get to a point like this with a horse, but there are some situations where it is necessary. That takes a lot of skill, courage and confidence to do successfully.


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## FeatheredFeet

I'm wondering, since this horse is apparently part of a supposed university equine programme and is given from one student to the next, just how many different students have 'trained' him already. Such 'training', could make any horse difficult, confused and a bit po'd. Not a good situation at all. I wonder if he was bred at this establishment, or purchased and what breed he is. I seldom make excuses for animal bad behavior, but in this case and given his age and situation, I just might. By June, I presume he will have his (at least) third student 'trainer'.

Lizzie


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## .Delete.

Just to humor you Feathered and keep you from making so many negative assumptions about where I decided to get my degree. He was broke out by one girl other girl. He was purchased from the Reichert celebration as a yearling and was only broke to lead. He sat out in a pasture here with a bunch of other babies until January. 

That's all the background information I'm giving you Feathered. You don't know my school, you don't know the situation because you're not here. Please stop making assumptions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DimSum

Would having a ground helper be a way to reinforce "forward not UP dammit"? I don't mean ponying, but actually someone on the ground leading while you are up top?


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## wausuaw

I am training a guy _just_ like this one. He is a foster (rescue) about 2 years old. I have been working with him about 3 months (had him here longer, but he was very, very thin and in bad shape, so I didn't really touch him til he got in physical shape enough)- and he's come very far, but still is not consistent enough to go to saddle. Nothing but groundwork. He's finally gotten to the point where he doesn't actively come after me. 

What worked for me, is determining what violent retractions were simply "auto retractions" from fear vs. actions that were intentionally toward me. If it was an auto reaction, I ignored it completely, just went about what I was doing- just stayed in a safe place and let him kick/rear/lash out until he did what I wanted and let him rest. If it was a reaction toward me, I would go toward him like a bat out of hell until the very instant he began to back off and then let him rest for a moment and think about it. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. What the biggest challenge I had was working on my timing (a horse like this is very unforgiving) and my ability to read him. If I "punished" (aka, went after him) when something wasn't directed at me personally (sometimes it can be hard to tell, since what I call an "auto" reaction may be in relatively close proximity, but not intentionally directed at you, just the situation) I would be automatically set back to the beginning and have to start all over again. 

He's gotten far enough that he's not directing things at me, but he will still rear/kick sometimes when he gets frustrated (though, they are way less than they used to be)- so until he gets those reactions in check I won't even try to ride him. You have WAY less control under saddle than on the ground, so it's best to get ALL that out of them before even thinking of getting on. Patience, and persistence. 

And a couple shots of tequila before stepping in the pen, lol. (I actually did do that in the beginning. After my first "session" with him, I was shaking so bad from sheer fear for my life that I did take a shot just to calm my nerves. It, believe it or not, helped out a great deal. Fear brings fear, and I didn't want him to think I was afraid of him, although, in truth, I really was. Now, since we have gotten past the worse, I don't need to do that anymore) It took about a week of working him twice a day between 1/2 an hour to 2 hours at a time (depending on when he got to a good point. If they get to a good point, there is no sense is pestering them further at that time, otherwise they get frustrated) for him to get his "attacking" to stop. As I said, now he's still a bit more reactive at times (that auto react, if he gets frustrated, or isn't paying attention and you surprise him), but all that stuff has gone away for the most part. Every so often he pins his ears toward me, but that's about it. I've saddled him, laid on him, etc- but until I see a consistent good attitude I'm not going to take the step of getting on him. I don't want him to think bucking or rearing is an option at all. 

Hope that helps. I've worked with a lot of horses that had some issues, but this one was the first that actually scared me.


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## EmilyJoy

What worked for me, is determining what violent retractions were simply "auto retractions" from fear vs. actions that were intentionally toward me. If it was an auto reaction, I ignored it completely, just went about what I was doing- just stayed in a safe place and let him kick/rear/lash out until he did what I wanted and let him rest. If it was a reaction toward me, I would go toward him like a bat out of hell until the very instant he began to back off and then let him rest for a moment and think about it. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. What the biggest challenge I had was working on my timing (a horse like this is very unforgiving) and my ability to read him. If I "punished" (aka, went after him) when something wasn't directed at me personally (sometimes it can be hard to tell, since what I call an "auto" reaction may be in relatively close proximity, but not intentionally directed at you, just the situation) I would be automatically set back to the beginning and have to start all over again.

*This^^ *


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## 4horses

What university is this? 

I feel like prospective students should have a right to know exactly what they are signing up for. It is not fair for someone who moves, and puts a ton of money into classes/expenses, to find out that the program isn't what it is said to be. Then the student is stuck, because it is not easy to change universities and move again, especially when you have made a financial investment. :-( You may like the program you are in, but there are others who would not be happy in a program like that. 

I'm done with college, so I have no personal interest in this. I just think others should have the right to make their own decisions in regards to a program like the one you describe.


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## VelvetsAB

4horses said:


> What university is this?
> 
> I feel like prospective students should have a right to know exactly what they are signing up for.


_I have to agree with the OP on keeping the privacy of herself plus her school. It also sounds like .delete. was fully aware of the program going in, and that students without the capabilities to take on this horse were passed over, EVEN when they were more senior students._


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## .Delete.

4horses said:


> What university is this?
> 
> I feel like prospective students should have a right to know exactly what they are signing up for. It is not fair for someone who moves, and puts a ton of money into classes/expenses, to find out that the program isn't what it is said to be. Then the student is stuck, because it is not easy to change universities and move again, especially when you have made a financial investment. :-( You may like the program you are in, but there are others who would not be happy in a program like that.
> 
> I'm done with college, so I have no personal interest in this. I just think others should have the right to make their own decisions in regards to a program like the one you describe.


MANY students leave the program after Freshman year. Its really not that big of a deal to change schools or majors.


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## .Delete.

UPDATE


Today ground driving was a complete disaster. He drug me all over the place and a few times when i went to re-direct him he would stop and rear. I chased after him like all hell broke loose and eventually he stopped rearing. We changed bits twice and he still was taking me for a ride. It was everything i could do to keep him in a consistent lunging circle. By the end my arms and hands were shaking. I am going to have a much stronger person than I ground drive him tomorrow and do lots and lots of pull stops. 

We only hobbled him and pulled him around for 3 minutes today. We laid him down once, then had to convince him to get up. Then I got on, same idea as yesterday. I kept his head bent around so he couldn't straighten out and rear. I had a boy on a horse with a whip following me around. The last thing I want him to learn is that he doesn't have to go forward unless there is someone on the ground with a whip. 

In the beginning he tried to rear a few times and actually hopped up once. The guy with the whip was mostly there to keep me away from the walls since we were spinning around the arena. At one point i was guiding in a straight line and asked him to move away from the gate. He said :evil: NO and drug his shoulder hard. I got after him like his life depended on it with the reins. 

By the end we were marching along in a large circle in the center of the arena. He went forward when i asked with a "yes mam" feel. We chilled and walked around a bit, then we were done. I won again today.

For those of you who think I am mean to him. After we were done riding he got a good long bath, liniment, AND an apple in his gain bin. I actually really like this little guy. Tomorrow we will be clipping, his previous rider left him all scruffy.


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## .Delete.

To add to my update. The goal was to ride him without exhausting him first, AND have him still make progress. Mission accomplished.


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## Corporal

Island Horselover said:


> What is the horses behaviour like in a herd with other horses? Do you have access to water, like a lake or something you could take him in??? If so I would def. go with him in the water, chest high and make him go forward, there is no way that he can rear badly and the bucks will be hardly noticable, been there, done that... water works wonders if you have a nasty horse!!! The dummy idea is another good idea - been there but did take way longer than the water method which is actually the way the natives used to break their horses!


That is brilliant. I did this with "Trogdor", who I bought as a 19yo TWH and wanted to train to gunfire. I took him into Billy Creek at the beginning of the battle. It was chest deep and I figured that even if he reared, I'd land in the water and be okay. I just kept him moving.
BUT...
he was thoroughly broken in as a trail horse.
*This isn't gonna be a quick fix.* I'd _like_ to suggest that you use the Monty Roberts or the Dennis Reis approach bc they are firm but gentle and I love the way each of them give a frightened horse courage.
I really think that Clinton Anderson's approach is about the only way to go with this 2yo.
And... a plan.
First and foremost the horse needs to be able to be safely handled, before you work on making him into a riding horse--you said that he bites. He should be easy to halter, easy to tie, easy to groom, easy to pick and handle feet. THAT should be your first priority.


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## COWCHICK77

Delete, him dragging you around ground driving...this where the Running W comes in handy. Does anyone there know how to use one?


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## .Delete.

COWCHICK77 said:


> Delete, him dragging you around ground driving...this where the Running W comes in handy. Does anyone there know how to use one?


I have heard of them before being used with driving horses that like to run away with the cart. I have never seen or used them before, I will ask around. Are they the same concept as hock hobbles?


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## .Delete.

Corporal said:


> That is brilliant. I did this with "Trogdor", who I bought as a 19yo TWH and wanted to train to gunfire. I took him into Billy Creek at the beginning of the battle. It was chest deep and I figured that even if he reared, I'd land in the water and be okay. I just kept him moving.
> BUT...
> he was thoroughly broken in as a trail horse.
> *This isn't gonna be a quick fix.* I'd _like_ to suggest that you use the Monty Roberts or the Dennis Reis approach bc they are firm but gentle and I love the way each of them give a frightened horse courage.
> I really think that Clinton Anderson's approach is about the only way to go with this 2yo.
> And... a plan.
> First and foremost the horse needs to be able to be safely handled, before you work on making him into a riding horse--you said that he bites. He should be easy to halter, easy to tie, easy to groom, easy to pick and handle feet. THAT should be your first priority.


Im almost certain I fixed the biting and the striking out. He only attempted to bite me once, hasn't even considered it since. Same with the striking out. Now our biggest problem on the ground is standing still. Especially when tied. He will kick at the gound with his hinds and swish his tail out of frustration. He also bites at the tie and paws. He doesn't dare do any of that while I am in the stall. When i walk away is when he becomes naughty. 

If i have time i will stand where he cannot see me and reprimand him when he needs it. But for the most part I don't have time! Should I let this go aslong as he doesn't do it when I am in the stall?


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## 4horses

Changing schools is a big deal if you have 2 horses to find board for, and finding a new apartment, plus arranging for moving your stuff and horses. It is not simple to just get up and move. It is costly... 

I feel sorry for other students entering this program. There are lots of people who do not believe (nor like to watch), someone else break a horse using the methods you describe. 

The more you tell me about him "dragging you around" tells me this horse has huge holes in his training. 

I do not see anything about you building his trust up, or doing anything than use force. How do you know this horse isn't rearing because he is confused? Is he dragging you around because he wants to get away from you? Hobbles, whips, and knocking the horse to the ground are not my idea of training... Pulling on the reins while being dragged around is only going to make his mouth tough. 

My rescue mare was trained similar to the methods you are describing. The man who had her would put her on the ground. She was terrified of men, bucked, bolted and was a nervous mess. She has scars/rope burns on her legs from being hobbled. I completely restarted her from the beginning and eventually we went on to ride bareback and bridleless. She is super sensitive and the person who had her before did not understand that she was a reactive horse. He tried to fight her into submission and when that failed he took her to a trainers and abandoned her. I'm sure he would say the same thing as you do- she bolted under saddle, bucked, reared and was generally a mess to handle. The first time I had the farrier try to do her feet- she reared straight up and flew backwards. She was food aggressive and she kicked if you weren't careful. 

You may "succeed" in breaking this horse, but you will never have a trusting partner or a horse who behaves out of anything other than fear. 

A horse does not continually fight out of meanness-generally they fight because they do not understand or something is hurting them. It is far easier for a horse to walk forward when asked than rear/buck or otherwise act up. It is far easier for a horse to trot slowly on the lunge line than drag you around. I doubt this horse is fighting to be mean- he may have started out that way, and is bad now out of fear or a combination of fear and aggression. 

The only way to become a better trainer is to constantly critique your training methods. Just because one way "works" does not mean there is not another way to do something that works better.


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## EmilyJoy

Another idea for the lunging would be to put him in the round pen and lunge him in there so at first he really can't do anything but go the circle. You could keep him in there until you feel that his circles are improving, you've got better control, and he's starting to come off the edge. Just my 2 cents.

And contrary to what the above poster thinks. I think you need to have a little healthy fear and a LOT of respect from the horse before you can ever think about trust. Once you do have respect then you can work on trust and a little more desensitizing.


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## Critter sitter

Honestly I think you are doing right. The only thing I do not like is his age. I wish he were at least a year older.


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## FeatheredFeet

I'm wondering, since this horse is apparently part of a supposed university equine programme and is given from one student to the next, just how many different students have 'trained' him already. Such 'training', could make any horse difficult, confused and a bit po'd. Not a good situation at all. I wonder if he was bred at this establishment, or purchased and what breed he is. I seldom make excuses for animal bad behavior, but in this case and given his age and situation, I just might. By June, I presume he will have his (at least) third student 'trainer'.
Lizzie



Just to humor you Feathered and keep you from making so many negative assumptions about where I decided to get my degree. He was broke out by one girl other girl. He was purchased from the Reichert celebration as a yearling and was only broke to lead. He sat out in a pasture here with a bunch of other babies until January.
That's all the background information I'm giving you Feathered. You don't know my school, you don't know the situation because you're not here. Please stop making assumptions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_



Nothing I have said above, are assumptions. Everything was taken from that which you have said previously, on this forum. 

Lizzie


----------



## .Delete.

4horses said:


> Changing schools is a big deal if you have 2 horses to find board for, and finding a new apartment, plus arranging for moving your stuff and horses. It is not simple to just get up and move. It is costly...
> 
> I will not even get started on how I feel about bringing a horse to college. Everything in life is costly 4horses. Yeah so what kids show up and find out this training major isn't for them. Happens all the time with other people in different majors. Seriously, changing schools and majors is very very common.
> 
> I feel sorry for other students entering this program. There are lots of people who do not believe (nor like to watch), someone else break a horse using the methods you describe.
> 
> I like my school, I don't agree with everything they do. But they let us develop our own techniques, they do not force their methods on you. Which i think is the best part about it. They offer advice and let you build on that.
> 
> The more you tell me about him "dragging you around" tells me this horse has huge holes in his training.
> 
> We all can agree he has holes in his training
> 
> I do not see anything about you building his trust up, or doing anything than use force. How do you know this horse isn't rearing because he is confused? Is he dragging you around because he wants to get away from you? Hobbles, whips, and knocking the horse to the ground are not my idea of training... Pulling on the reins while being dragged around is only going to make his mouth tough.
> 
> This horse is not confused, he is a jerk. I have enough confidence in myself to know the difference between a confused horse and one that is just plain naughty.
> 
> My rescue mare was trained similar to the methods you are describing. The man who had her would put her on the ground. She was terrified of men, bucked, bolted and was a nervous mess. She has scars/rope burns on her legs from being hobbled. I completely restarted her from the beginning and eventually we went on to ride bareback and bridleless. She is super sensitive and the person who had her before did not understand that she was a reactive horse. He tried to fight her into submission and when that failed he took her to a trainers and abandoned her. I'm sure he would say the same thing as you do- she bolted under saddle, bucked, reared and was generally a mess to handle. The first time I had the farrier try to do her feet- she reared straight up and flew backwards. She was food aggressive and she kicked if you weren't careful.
> 
> You may "succeed" in breaking this horse, but you will never have a trusting partner or a horse who behaves out of anything other than fear.
> 
> He will learn to trust me all right, trust the fact that i will whoop his butt everytime he even thinks about being bad.
> 
> A horse does not continually fight out of meanness-generally they fight because they do not understand or something is hurting them. It is far easier for a horse to walk forward when asked than rear/buck or otherwise act up. It is far easier for a horse to trot slowly on the lunge line than drag you around. I doubt this horse is fighting to be mean- he may have started out that way, and is bad now out of fear or a combination of fear and aggression.
> 
> Like i said, this isn't fear or confusion. He has been riding long enough to know what is being asked when someone kicks on him.
> 
> The only way to become a better trainer is to constantly critique your training methods. Just because one way "works" does not mean there is not another way to do something that works better.
> 
> So far, my method has worked. I will continue doing things the way I have been until I run into a problem, then i will make a change of pace.


This horse is not a an innocent victim. The only thing this horse is a victim of is a poor foundation.


----------



## .Delete.

FeatheredFeet said:


> I'm wondering, since this horse is apparently part of a supposed university equine programme and is given from one student to the next, *just how many different students have 'trained' him already.* *Such 'training', could make any horse difficult, confused and a bit po'd.* Not a good situation at all. I wonder if he was bred at this establishment, or purchased and what breed he is. I seldom make excuses for animal bad behavior, but in this case and given his age and situation, I just might. *By June, I presume he will have his (at least) third student 'trainer'.*
> 
> Lizzie


Everything about this post is negative and sarcastic. Especially the 'bolded' lines.

If you don't have any more advice for my situation and insist on repeating yourself and being negative I suggest you don't waste your time on this thread anymore.


----------



## paintsrule

4horses said:


> My rescue mare was trained similar to the methods you are describing. The man who had her would put her on the ground. She was terrified of men, bucked, bolted and was a nervous mess. She has scars/rope burns on her legs from being hobbled. I completely restarted her from the beginning and eventually we went on to ride bareback and bridleless. She is super sensitive and the person who had her before did not understand that she was a reactive horse. He tried to fight her into submission and when that failed he took her to a trainers and abandoned her. I'm sure he would say the same thing as you do- she bolted under saddle, bucked, reared and was generally a mess to handle. The first time I had the farrier try to do her feet- she reared straight up and flew backwards. She was food aggressive and she kicked if you weren't careful.


Now I could be completely wrong, but perhaps the reason the mare was so messed up by the rough training that man was using (and the same is delete) is because the mare was a different personality type (not a wishy washy parreli thing) and gentle, kinder training could have been done on her because she didn't have the laundry list of bad behaviors this colt does. To me, it sounds like it wasn't neccesary for the mare, but is for the colt because he has been trained "kindly" in the past and it didn't work, he has a rough personality so he would need rougher handling to break through to him and stop the dangerous behaviors, "gentling" won't work because he's already predisposed to violence.
I dunno.


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## FeatheredFeet

.Delete.You must understand, that when someone comes to this forum, asking for horse training advice, we are to presume they are not under the tutelage of a knowledgeable trainer. All your posts, back this up. It is really horrifying to me, that you are in a University Equine programme, where they actually allow students to form their own training methods. This especially, when the same horse, goes from student to student, as you have said.

It is painfully obvious to many here, that you were not particularly horse-knowledgeable, when entering this programme. No harm in that. Everyone has to learn from the start. We all did. What is worrying, is that you are in a University programme where you are supposed to be learning (hopefully by a professional in the field) but have to come to a forum such as this, to ask members here, to give you training help and tips.

Lizzie


----------



## .Delete.

FeatheredFeet said:


> .Delete.You must understand, that when someone comes to this forum, asking for horse training advice, we are to presume they are not under the tutelage of a knowledgeable trainer. All your posts, back this up. It is really horrifying to me, that you are in a University Equine programme, where they actually allow students to form their own training methods. This especially, when the same horse, goes from student to student, as you have said.
> 
> It is painfully obvious to many here, that you were not particularly horse-knowledgeable, when entering this programme. No harm in that. Everyone has to learn from the start. We all did. What is worrying, is that you are in a University programme where you are supposed to be learning (hopefully by a professional in the field) but have to come to a forum such as this, to ask members here, to give you training help and tips.
> 
> Lizzie


Look for a PM Feathered.


----------



## .Delete.

FeatheredFeet said:


> .Delete.You must understand, that when someone comes to this forum, asking for horse training advice, we are to presume they are not under the tutelage of a knowledgeable trainer. All your posts, back this up. It is really horrifying to me, that you are in a University Equine programme, where they actually allow students to form their own training methods. This especially, when the same horse, goes from student to student, as you have said.
> 
> It is painfully obvious to many here, that you were not particularly horse-knowledgeable, when entering this programme. No harm in that. Everyone has to learn from the start. We all did. What is worrying, is that you are in a University programme where you are supposed to be learning (hopefully by a professional in the field) but have to come to a forum such as this, to ask members here, to give you training help and tips.
> 
> Lizzie


I would like to simply point out that there are many people on this forum that are supportive of my methods with this animal and think I am doing a great job. 

Like i said, to each is own.


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## FeatheredFeet

You really didn't need to 'scold' me via a pm, Delete. There is nothing I write here, which I feel needs to be said privately. 

When anyone posts on forums such as this, you must understand, that not everyone will say what you want to hear. 

Lizzie


----------



## .Delete.

FeatheredFeet said:


> You really didn't need to 'scold' me via a pm, Delete. There is nothing I write here, which I feel needs to be said privately.
> 
> When anyone posts on forums such as this, you must understand, that not everyone will say what you want to hear.
> 
> Lizzie


I did not want to argue over that post on this thread. 

I am fine with your opinion about how i should handle this horse. I appreciate the input and your concern for my safety. However, I would hope you would have some respect for the information I wished to keep private for the owners sake (which i stated several times). Instead you kept asking and when you did not get an answer you made assumptions. That is where I have a problem Feathered.


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## palogal

I tried to be done...I failed.
The fact that anyone is condoning treating a BABY like this is just disgusting.


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## 4horses

Delete- there are several issues here that I personally don't like.

#1) having students train a horse as dangerous as this one is- if the horse is as dangerous as you say he should be trained by a professional or by the instructor. 

#2) Going from babying this horse to manhandling him. I could understand manhandling this horse if he was a vicious stud, but I cannot understand that when he is a baby/2 yr old. If this horse had years of bad behavior, like the stud I handled that attacked a previous person and ripped their face up, maybe I could understand the use of force. 

#3) Assuming that this horse is being bad for the sake of being bad. If his previous training was so poor, how is he supposed to know anything? His behavior doesn't sound aggressive to me- aggressive behavior is charging, biting, or kicking at you... Trying to escape is not aggressive! Rearing with his first rider does not sound aggressive- it sounds like confusion. How is he not confused if he has holes in his training? 

#4) Letting students develop their own training program- a school should have a developed "lesson plan" and a specific training program or how too approach. 

#5) How has this horse been ridden long enough to know what it means when someone kicks on him? Didn't he just turn 2 yrs old (assuming his birthday was in Jan/February?).

#6) Punishment (unless used in moderation) does not build trust, it builds resentment/hate and fear. How does whipping him for mistakes (unless he is being aggressive), not make you into an abuser? I find if you use punishment correctly, you get a horse that trusts you to lead in every situation, that is respectful, and that will do anything you ask because that horse wants to please you, not because he is terrified of you. 

If this was one of my students and one of my horses, I would be using this horse as a demo horse on how to train the most difficult animal. I would not want my students to be guessing about how to approach this, and I would not put my students in danger. Nor would I have anyone on that horse's back until that horse's ground work was nearly perfect. Of course I am a person who actually cares about safety... 

Obviously you have no issues with using force, but you need to ask yourself "how far is too far?" and how are you going to feel about yourself when this is over? I personally find the situation you are describing disgusting as well. 

It sounds like the people around you have no issues with using force with training, so it is acceptable for you to do so as well. And thus the cycle of abuse/poor training continues... 

FYI: I'm certainly not a person who is all cuddly with their horses. I expect my horses to do a job, and do it well! The people who know my work have all been pleased with it, of course they are also the people who would probably kick someone out of the barn for using excessive force. 

Be careful about using those training methods in the future, because some employers may frown on that, and you may find yourself without a job. Most people are very particular about how they want their horses handled. If you tried that with an arabian or hotter breed, you might end up getting hurt very badly as those breeds are super sensitive and do not handle that type of treatment well. 

I will not bother commenting again, as it is a waste of my time. Why ask for opinions on training methods if you do not want to try anything other than your own way? Clinton Anderson training would work well, so would a combination of endotapping like the videos I posted earlier. 

Do you really think fighting with this horse is going to yield faster results?


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## CLaPorte432

4Horses...Terrific post. ^^^
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## palogal

4horses said:


> Delete- there are several issues here that I personally don't like.
> 
> #1) having students train a horse as dangerous as this one is- if the horse is as dangerous as you say he should be trained by a professional or by the instructor.
> 
> #2) Going from babying this horse to manhandling him. I could understand manhandling this horse if he was a vicious stud, but I cannot understand that when he is a baby/2 yr old. If this horse had years of bad behavior, like the stud I handled that attacked a previous person and ripped their face up, maybe I could understand the use of force.
> 
> #3) Assuming that this horse is being bad for the sake of being bad. If his previous training was so poor, how is he supposed to know anything? His behavior doesn't sound aggressive to me- aggressive behavior is charging, biting, or kicking at you... Trying to escape is not aggressive! Rearing with his first rider does not sound aggressive- it sounds like confusion. How is he not confused if he has holes in his training?
> 
> #4) Letting students develop their own training program- a school should have a developed "lesson plan" and a specific training program or how too approach.
> 
> #5) How has this horse been ridden long enough to know what it means when someone kicks on him? Didn't he just turn 2 yrs old (assuming his birthday was in Jan/February?).
> 
> #6) Punishment (unless used in moderation) does not build trust, it builds resentment/hate and fear. How does whipping him for mistakes (unless he is being aggressive), not make you into an abuser? I find if you use punishment correctly, you get a horse that trusts you to lead in every situation, that is respectful, and that will do anything you ask because that horse wants to please you, not because he is terrified of you.
> 
> If this was one of my students and one of my horses, I would be using this horse as a demo horse on how to train the most difficult animal. I would not want my students to be guessing about how to approach this, and I would not put my students in danger. Nor would I have anyone on that horse's back until that horse's ground work was nearly perfect. Of course I am a person who actually cares about safety...
> 
> Obviously you have no issues with using force, but you need to ask yourself "how far is too far?" and how are you going to feel about yourself when this is over? I personally find the situation you are describing disgusting as well.
> 
> It sounds like the people around you have no issues with using force with training, so it is acceptable for you to do so as well. And thus the cycle of abuse/poor training continues...
> 
> FYI: I'm certainly not a person who is all cuddly with their horses. I expect my horses to do a job, and do it well! The people who know my work have all been pleased with it, of course they are also the people who would probably kick someone out of the barn for using excessive force.
> 
> Be careful about using those training methods in the future, because some employers may frown on that, and you may find yourself without a job. Most people are very particular about how they want their horses handled. If you tried that with an arabian or hotter breed, you might end up getting hurt very badly as those breeds are super sensitive and do not handle that type of treatment well.
> 
> I will not bother commenting again, as it is a waste of my time. Why ask for opinions on training methods if you do not want to try anything other than your own way? Clinton Anderson training would work well, so would a combination of endotapping like the videos I posted earlier.
> 
> Do you really think fighting with this horse is going to yield faster results?


 
Amen. (too short)


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## .Delete.

I'm done arguing. Thank you for your input, advice, and concern for my safety.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## christopher

palogal said:


> The fact that anyone is condoning treating a BABY like this is just disgusting.


 just out of curiosity, what makes you think a baby requires different handling than any other horse?


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## palogal

christopher said:


> just out of curiosity, what makes you think a baby requires different handling than any other horse?


 
seriously?? Babies require entirely different handling than an adult trained horse.


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## Tessa7707

I will admit to not having read all of the responses to this post, so forgive me if I repeat something.

Do you have the option to work with a helper? 
It sounds like you know what you're talking about, so I won't bother with stressing the importance of 100% respect on the ground.

My idea is to have another person helping you. One of you working the horse on the ground, the other in the saddle. Continue the same groundwork he knows and responds to well, but with someone in the saddle. I wouldn't even touch him with your legs or hands yet from the saddle, let him take his cues from the person on the ground. 

You're sure nothing is hurting him? The saddle fits well? 

Be careful and good luck. I'm not one for giving up on any horse, and I bet you learn a lot from this horse that will help you with future horses. He'll be a huge success story when you succeed.


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## .Delete.

Yes I always have someone on the ground helping me. I'm not allowed to ride him without a teacher assisting me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wausuaw

Different horses require different training. This is why I never just fixate on one method to "get through" to a horse, especially a horse that hasn't gotten a good foundation and developed dangerous habits. 

I agree that with this horse, due to his age and disclosed background, he would greatly benefit from a restart. But, I understand the limitations with the program.

I also would like to state, that with my young rescue- I have had to get very forceful with him- but only when he directed his frustration or anger toward me, not when he was just frustrated and didn't know what to do, I would let him figure it out. With some horses, it's way less than a 3 second rule- with him it's a split second, and if I miss it- he would get way worse, way quick. 

Even though now he's a lot better, I wouldn't consider riding him because frankly, he doesn't have it all down. He's not as quick to get frustrated (he knows there IS a way out, now) and he doesn't attack (he's figured out that's not the way out)- but he's just not ready. He will let me know when he's ready. I don't want to get hurt, and I don't want to hurt his trust, or his confidence. 

Since you are forced to ride him daily, I would keep it as brief and basic as possible. I, personally, would also take off all the contraptions and work with the horse. Force him to read your body language, make him pay attention. When he does good, stop. Don't approach him or love him. Just give him a little breather. After he seems to be paying attention (ears forward, he's constantly facing you, listening) approach him. (This with a lead on) Jump on, but instead of sitting, just lay on him (if he rears, moves, etc. just slip off, make him work a few minutes, and then do it again). Make him (at stand still) turn his head in both directions and see you. Then do that on the other side. Do it until he seems ok, bored, or otherwise just content. Then do it again, but this time (while still just laying over him for quick retreat) make him move forward. Not a whole lot, just a few steps even if you can only get him in circles) Slowly get more and more. If he rears or reacts, slide off and work him- and not dilly dallying, make him show you he is paying attention to you- only you. Eventually move up to getting on. Again, with the getting all the way on, repeat it the same way, get on, make him see you, then get off and work him. Then walk. Off, on again. 

Don't be scared to bolt off if he rears, but make him work immediately if you do that. Keep lead line in hand so that you can bring his head back if he looses his mind and rears. You don't want to get hurt, and you don't want him flipping (flipping will get you off, if rearing can't, and horses that rear to get people off progress to flipping over when folks try to "ride it out" flipping over works EVERYTIME for them.) Make YOU riding him the easy option. "That ground chick is nuts, at least I can breathe while she's on me, I better not make her get off"

My first horse was a "rearer" and little naive me (I was 15) thought he was just being and ****** and I could just ride it out and he'd stop if he couldn't get away with it. Then he flipped over the side of a bridge into a creek (luckily, no long term damage to either of us, but he couldn't walk well for a few months and I got a pretty beat up) but at that point I decided my method wasn't working (if it can really be called a method, when I got him I didn't know anything about horses- anything, never been around them, except for maybe a month when I was a kid taking lessons in Memphis)... So, I started over with him as soon as he was rehabbed- which others have suggested, and I would suggest, but again, doesn't seem an option for you. (FYI, my horses problem was still there after he landed in the ditch, in fact was a bit worse since he'd just flip instead of rear, but after a bit he figured out it was more work off then on, so we ended up having some good times. I thought he was young, but I found out he was about 14, which can make things take a lot longer) His problems where that he had bad training, had figured out how to scare people to leave him alone, and a naive, stubborn, unyeilding owner (me). The combination of things made things a lot worse than they needed to be. I'm lucky I survived all the stuff we went thru, and I wouldn't trade it, he taught me a lot- but I was an idiot, and more or less an ******* myself for awhile with him, cause I didn't know any better.

Also, look for the try. Even my little foster, as bad as he was- he gave me a try the first day. Don't look for perfection. Maybe with this guy, that little movement forward is a try. Maybe his release isn't just an aggressive release of pressure. Maybe you have to dismount, turn and walk away, give him some time, and then approach again. Every horse is a bit different, I don't think there is a magic method. 

There's been a lot of good suggestions, and I've kept reading to learn more. Personally, I'm resistant to using hobbles, harsher bits and this and that, but that's because I've only seen bad results in the long run and have had to fix a lot of problems resulting from only being able to control a horse with such things- but, that's just me. Don't get me wrong, I have had to "duke it out" a few times- you don't sweet talk a po'd 1200lb animal charging you... I figure if I'm not getting the results I want, then I'm doing something wrong. 

... Off soap box. Keep us up to date, please- let us know how it's progressing.


----------



## wausuaw

Different horses require different training. This is why I never just fixate on one method to "get through" to a horse, especially a horse that hasn't gotten a good foundation and developed dangerous habits. 

I agree that with this horse, due to his age and disclosed background, he would greatly benefit from a restart. But, I understand the limitations with the program.

I also would like to state, that with my young rescue- I have had to get very forceful with him- but only when he directed his frustration or anger toward me, not when he was just frustrated and didn't know what to do, I would let him figure it out. With some horses, it's way less than a 3 second rule- with him it's a split second, and if I miss it- he would get way worse, way quick. 

Even though now he's a lot better, I wouldn't consider riding him because frankly, he doesn't have it all down. He's not as quick to get frustrated (he knows there IS a way out, now) and he doesn't attack (he's figured out that's not the way out)- but he's just not ready. He will let me know when he's ready. I don't want to get hurt, and I don't want to hurt his trust, or his confidence. 

Since you are forced to ride him daily, I would keep it as brief and basic as possible. I, personally, would also take off all the contraptions and work with the horse. Force him to read your body language, make him pay attention. When he does good, stop. Don't approach him or love him. Just give him a little breather. After he seems to be paying attention (ears forward, he's constantly facing you, listening) approach him. (This with a lead on) Jump on, but instead of sitting, just lay on him (if he rears, moves, etc. just slip off, make him work a few minutes, and then do it again). Make him (at stand still) turn his head in both directions and see you. Then do that on the other side. Do it until he seems ok, bored, or otherwise just content. Then do it again, but this time (while still just laying over him for quick retreat) make him move forward. Not a whole lot, just a few steps even if you can only get him in circles) Slowly get more and more. If he rears or reacts, slide off and work him- and not dilly dallying, make him show you he is paying attention to you- only you. Eventually move up to getting on. Again, with the getting all the way on, repeat it the same way, get on, make him see you, then get off and work him. Then walk. Off, on again. 

Don't be scared to bolt off if he rears, but make him work immediately if you do that. Keep lead line in hand so that you can bring his head back if he looses his mind and rears. You don't want to get hurt, and you don't want him flipping (flipping will get you off, if rearing can't, and horses that rear to get people off progress to flipping over when folks try to "ride it out" flipping over works EVERYTIME for them.) Make YOU riding him the easy option. "That ground chick is nuts, at least I can breathe while she's on me, I better not make her get off"

My first horse was a "rearer" and little naive me (I was 15) thought he was just being and ****** and I could just ride it out and he'd stop if he couldn't get away with it. Then he flipped over the side of a bridge into a creek (luckily, no long term damage to either of us, but he couldn't walk well for a few months and I got a pretty beat up) but at that point I decided my method wasn't working (if it can really be called a method, when I got him I didn't know anything about horses- anything, never been around them, except for maybe a month when I was a kid taking lessons in Memphis)... So, I started over with him as soon as he was rehabbed- which others have suggested, and I would suggest, but again, doesn't seem an option for you. (FYI, my horses problem was still there after he landed in the ditch, in fact was a bit worse since he'd just flip instead of rear, but after a bit he figured out it was more work off then on, so we ended up having some good times. I thought he was young, but I found out he was about 14, which can make things take a lot longer) His problems where that he had bad training, had figured out how to scare people to leave him alone, and a naive, stubborn, unyeilding owner (me). The combination of things made things a lot worse than they needed to be. I'm lucky I survived all the stuff we went thru, and I wouldn't trade it, he taught me a lot- but I was an idiot, and more or less an ******* myself for awhile with him, cause I didn't know any better.

Also, look for the try. Even my little foster, as bad as he was- he gave me a try the first day. Don't look for perfection. Maybe with this guy, that little movement forward is a try. Maybe his release isn't just an aggressive release of pressure. Maybe you have to dismount, turn and walk away, give him some time, and then approach again. Every horse is a bit different, I don't think there is a magic method. 

There's been a lot of good suggestions, and I've kept reading to learn more. Personally, I'm resistant to using hobbles, harsher bits and this and that, but that's because I've only seen bad results in the long run and have had to fix a lot of problems resulting from only being able to control a horse with such things- but, that's just me. Don't get me wrong, I have had to "duke it out" a few times- you don't sweet talk a po'd 1200lb animal charging you... I figure if I'm not getting the results I want, then I'm doing something wrong. 

... Off soap box. Keep us up to date, please- let us know how it's progressing.


----------



## Red Cedar Farm

Bottom line here is if you value the animals you must work with, regardless of how they behave, and you value your OWN life, you need to speak to the Dean, or someone higher up in the pecking order than this so called "teacher."
There is absolutely NO excuse for a young person who is unsure of how to handle such behavior to be forced to work with this horse, and there is NO excuse for a teacher to be using this kind of force on an already messed up animal. I can't imagine what kind of horses get turned out from this place with the methods this person is having you use.

I am by no means directing this at you, I'm just blown away that this is even allowed to go on at this school...or any school for that matter! I know you're a capable young person and can handle yourself, but what this instructor is having you do is like adding gasoline to a grease fire. This type of "correction" is not going to resolve anything, but rather escalate the horse's attempts to remain in control. Not every horse can be reprogrammed by starting them over from square one, but every horse deserves the chance to start over. I know your instructor won't let you do this. If I were in your shoes, I would walk out, because what is going on here is not in your or the horse's best interest at all.

It only takes one small moment and one horrific accident to drastically change or even end your life. It's not worth it. Not for you, and not for your friends and family who love you.


----------



## RunWalk

.Delete. said:


> Haha, yes. I am only allowed to ride him when a teacher is helping me.


So, in what way is the teacher helping?
And do you wear a helmet.


----------



## RunWalk

christopher said:


> just out of curiosity, what makes you think a baby requires different handling than any other horse?


A brain?


----------



## palogal

.Delete. said:


> Yes I always have someone on the ground helping me. I'm not allowed to ride him without a teacher assisting me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Serious question...what is the teacher doing? Directing, damage control, drinking coffee? How is he/she helping you?


----------



## ligoleth

Delete, 
I applaud your efforts. I don't know what I would do if I ever had to handle a nasty horse, especially one as bad as yours. 

I've dealt with a "naughty" mustang who used to be sour to the core, but was safe enough to ride. Just a grumbly gus. But I can say two years later he has seemed to really turn around. 

To those who disagree:
You state that because of her safety she shouldn't bother. But when is working with horses period ever safe? Ever time we even come in contact with a horse is a potential risk to our lives. 

That is a thousand pound animal. Delete is probably only a hundred or so pounds. If being rough and demanding respect is a problem, then I don't see how any other method of training is any better. This is a clear case of a prior owner not having what it takes to ENSURE her animal will be a safe and sane member of society. It isn't delete's fault for trying to fix it. Its the poor choices and ignorance of the first owner who was far too over her head to bother calling it in. Instead... A monster was made. 

Stop berating the OP because I can probably bet any of you would high tail it and run, or do practices just like what she is doing to promise a brighter future and safety to everyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## palogal

Deschutes said:


> Delete,
> I applaud your efforts. I don't know what I would do if I ever had to handle a nasty horse, especially one as bad as yours.
> 
> I've dealt with a "naughty" mustang who used to be sour to the core, but was safe enough to ride. Just a grumbly gus. But I can say two years later he has seemed to really turn around.
> 
> To those who disagree:
> You state that because of her safety she shouldn't bother. But when is working with horses period ever safe? Ever time we even come in contact with a horse is a potential risk to our lives.
> 
> That is a thousand pound animal. Delete is probably only a hundred or so pounds. If being rough and demanding respect is a problem, then I don't see how any other method of training is any better. This is a clear case of a prior owner not having what it takes to ENSURE her animal will be a safe and sane member of society. It isn't delete's fault for trying to fix it. Its the poor choices and ignorance of the first owner who was far too over her head to bother calling it in. Instead... A monster was made.
> 
> Stop berating the OP because I can probably bet any of you would high tail it and run, or do practices just like what she is doing to promise a brighter future and safety to everyone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Have you read this thread?


----------



## ligoleth

Yep. Read it all. 
And I agree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## .Delete.

They try to make this as realistic training situation as possible. When training horses for a living (as many of you know) you will run into horses like this. Horses that will challenge you, and push you. And like a realistic training situation I have the option to walk away from it. Anyone does, we don't HAVE to ride the horses we are given. 

Being a good horse trainer means being a good problem solver. How can you learn that without experience? Experience is knowledge after all. If they put us on super broke horses what will we learn? To ride a broke horse. An that is a fraction of a horse trainers clientele. We are given unbrokes and are taught how to break them out. 

Horse training is an extremely dangerous profession. Even riding broke horses you can get hurt. I don't see the point in riding around broke horses, when it's a program specifically designed for people who want to become horse trainers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## palogal

I get all that...but you're not learning to train. You may think you are, but you're not. I am a professional trainer. I learned by having great teachers that train with firmness and fairness. You are not learning this. You are learning to dominate and force. Quite honestly, you're the person someone fires and then brings the horse to me to be fixed.


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## ligoleth

I believe she is being as forceful as necessary. 

What's a better alternative: boot camp or euthanasia?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## palogal

Deschutes said:


> I believe she is being as forceful as necessary.
> 
> What's a better alternative: boot camp or euthanasia?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And you're completely wrong. This is a BABY. The correct alternative is to restart..correctly.


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## ligoleth

The fact it is a baby doesn't even phase me. 

What does is the fact that this horse will kill someone unless fixed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## existentialpony

palogal said:


> And you're completely wrong. This is a BABY. The correct alternative is to restart..correctly.


I have to throw in my two cents and just say this: declaring over and over that the OP is "wrong" and that your ideas are "correct" is only a suggestion of close-mindedness. Your way is not the only way, or the only right way.


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## .Delete.

A BABY who has already learned to be naughty. 

Tell me tho if my method is so awful, disgusting, and appalling. Why is he progressing? Why does he stand while being mounted now? Why is he going forward off my voice and legs instead of sucking back? Why does he have a kinder eye?

You keep saying that he is going to get worse. But so far he has only gotten better. Imagine that.


----------



## .Delete.

existentialpony said:


> I have to throw in my two cents and just say this: declaring over and over that the OP is "wrong" and that your ideas are "correct" is only a suggestion of close-mindedness. Your way is not the only way, or the only right way.


this ^^^


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## palogal

.Delete. said:


> A BABY who has already learned to be naughty.
> 
> Tell me tho if my method is so awful, disgusting, and appalling. Why is he progressing? Why does he stand while being mounted now? Why is he going forward off my voice and legs instead of sucking back? Why does he have a kinder eye?
> 
> You keep saying that he is going to get worse. But so far he has only gotten better. Imagine that.


 
In the 2 days since the OP??? Amazing.


----------



## .Delete.

palogal said:


> In the 2 days since the OP??? Amazing.


You MUST be sneaking in his stall and re-training him for me at night. :wink:

I POSTED this two todays ago. I have been working with him for a week. We have made considerable progress in the past two days. Sunday is the first time we threw him on the ground. THAT is what has humbled him the most so far.


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## COWCHICK77

Babying this colt has got him in this position....he sure is going to be a peach when he is about 6 years old and these issues haven't been resolved.


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## Red Cedar Farm

I'm confused.... if you're methods are working, then what exactly is the problem? If he's responding to what you're doing, what are you needing help with? 
I was under the impression that you were forced to work with this nutball of a 2 year old that the previous girl (under the same instructor, I'm assuming), totally screwed up by giving in to his pushy, dangerous, and disrespectful behavior, thus ingraining it into his psyche. I was also under the impression that you are forced to ride this horse and deal with his misbehavior through negative reinforcement, and that you have no option to start him over and not ride him for period of time. 
If you are in a program to learn how to train horses, then you need to be given the freedom to work with each horse as an INDIVIDUAL. If that means not backing the horse for a period of time so that you can gain his respect from the ground....which transfers to respect when you're in the saddle....then this is a horribly short-sighted program focused on rushing both students and horses through their program for that all mighty dollar, and are NOT focused on turning out quality in their students or their horses. 
As a mother of 2 college students, a veterinary technician, and a horse trainer of 30+ years, I can legitimately say that this is a load of B.S.... Both for what they are doing to YOU by lack of proper safety and correct education, and what they are doing to the horses.
Again, I reiterate, if you CARE about these horses and for yourself and the students who will follow, you will talk to someone higher up about the conditions that you are all being forced to work in....the humans as well as the horses.


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## ligoleth

I believe the horse was "ruined" due to a girl not involved in the program. That's what my understanding was.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Red Cedar Farm

Oh, Ok...I thought it was a previous student. But the handler directly before the OP is the one who absolutely reinforced the dangerous behavior, tho, right?


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## Army wife

Maybe friendship training will work! Add some extra cuddles and kisses. That's sure to get his respect!!! Bahaha


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## ligoleth

I can't say for sure. Imma re read, but hopefully delete can weigh in and clarify.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ligoleth

Army wife: it will be like a live version of my little pony, friendship is magic! All that's missing is a pretty rain cloud on his rumpus.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny

At this point, I think I need to post something as a mod, not just as an interested member. Please let's all cool our jets a bit and not let the snark out of the bag.


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## .Delete.

Red Cedar Farm said:


> Oh, Ok...I thought it was a previous student. But the handler directly before the OP is the one who absolutely reinforced the dangerous behavior, tho, right?


I will clarify. 

In no way is my program perfect. There is crap here that goes on daily that really makes me wonder. There is things ALLOWED here that really makes me question. The horse was started by a different girl in the program. So yes, THEY let this horse get this bad. I do not HAVE to ride it, if i say i dont want to ride it they will give it to someone else. 

I posted this for opinions, stories, and general information. Also, things like this are not posted the forum often. I feel since this is a public forum, I might not be the only one to benefit from posting it. I am very open to new ideas and new methods. I have followed CA in the past closely before he was "famous". I have read up on Parelli alot and various other trainers. I feel you can learn something from everyone. 

I wanted this to be a "what would you do" type of thread. Because my methods won't always work (I know Palogal shocking!), I will full admit to that! Because of ideas and opinions of other people (from this forum and other people) I have things to fall back on. I am no ashamed to say my method didn't work. I am also not ashamed to try something new. I truly have never been faced with a horse to this extent. I wanted to hear from people who have and what they did or would do. 

This is what I love the most about the horse industry. There are so many different ways to do things. Everyone has their own style and they are so passionate about it. Everyone is willing to tell you how to do something the "right" way :wink:. I don't take offense to people shoving their methods down my throat? No, I am always willing to listen, does it mean I will do what they say? Not always, but I hear them out. Horse training is an art, and every artist paints differently.


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## BarrelracingArabian

I feel something this dangerous should be taken from the program and taken to someone who knows how to handle it and such. People still learning and unsure of it should not be put in that situation. I am not bashing I just feel it isn't the best idea. I gave you my advice you turned it down completely but hey whatever hope nothing bad happens and ya'll can figure out a way to fix him.


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## .Delete.

BarrelracingArabian said:


> I feel something this dangerous should be taken from the program and taken to someone who knows how to handle it and such. People still learning and unsure of it should not be put in that situation. I am not bashing I just feel it isn't the best idea. I gave you my advice you turned it down completely but hey whatever hope nothing bad happens and ya'll can figure out a way to fix him.


I don't understand why us, as students, should be babied. We signed a liability contract, we know what we are getting into. This is a problem that needs to be solved, how am i ever going to learn how to solve it without doing it? I paid for an education, and thats what I am getting. I am learning and will continue to learn so much from this little horse. Its always the tough ones that teach you, you don't learn anything by riding easy horses. 

In the real world I'm not always going to be given "safe" horses to ride. Its either figure out how to ride the rough ones or don't eat because you turned away that horse & the profit. Alot of the time starting off all you get is crappy horses with crappy attitudes.


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## 6gun Kid

I was invited to this forum but a trainer I know and respect greatly, she said I should join because I would be useful in this section. However, if this is the kind of knowledge and _training _I am going to find here, I think I may skip it.


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## .Delete.

6gun Kid said:


> I was invited to this forum but a trainer I know and respect greatly, she said I should join because I would be useful in this section. However, if this is the kind of knowledge and _training _I am going to find here, I think I may skip it.


You'll find all sorts of _training_ here. Just take a peek at the people who disagree with me.


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## tinyliny

6gun Kid said:


> I was invited to this forum but a trainer I know and respect greatly, she said I should join because I would be useful in this section. However, if this is the kind of knowledge and _training _I am going to find here, I think I may skip it.


 
Well, perhaps you should elucidate what you find so offputting. which training mentioned here, as there have been a half dozen different approaches suggested.

And, if you were invited here becuase you have something to contribute, well then we might benefit from your willingness to share with us.


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## 6gun Kid

Unfortunately for you, I agree with them. The idea of tying up a 2 year olds legs is to me both irresponsible and repugnant. As a two year old the growth plates of their bones aren't closed, nor are their joints. Putting that kind of hyperextension on an immature joint isnt training its torture


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## existentialpony

6gun Kid said:


> I was invited to this forum but a trainer I know and respect greatly, she said I should join because I would be useful in this section. However, if this is the kind of knowledge and _training _I am going to find here, I think I may skip it.


OP had a problem, OP asked for advice. OP chose to take Cherie's advice (or at least a semblence of it). OP is seeing progress, the horse is not injured or abused or depressed. Somehow everyone is now critiquing the training program...?

Delete, I think that you've reaped all of the possible value from this thread. But do continue to post progress reports and/or... pictures?  I would love to see the sucker behind this troublesome thread! And I think we're all interested to see how this turns out.


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## .Delete.

6gun Kid said:


> Unfortunately for you, I agree with them. The idea of tying up a 2 year olds legs is to me both irresponsible and repugnant. As a two year old the growth plates of their bones aren't closed, nor are their joints. Putting that kind of hyperextension on an immature joint isnt training its torture


Unfortunate for who? Certainly not me.

The most common thing shared between horse people is not the horses themselves, but that their way is the right way.


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## .Delete.

I /might/ be able to post a video of the end product. Like i mentioned before, for privacy sake no pictures. If i were my personal horse there would be a daily video.


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## ligoleth

Delete, I'm curious as to what the end fate would be for the horse once you graduate? Will he continue his schooling, or do you have plans of maybe purchasing if he turns out well?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 6gun Kid

.Delete. said:


> Unfortunate for who? Certainly not me.
> 
> The most common thing shared between horse people is not the horses themselves, but that their way is the right way.


I never said my way was the right way, In fact I never gave you a "way". I said you are causing physical damage to an immature horse.


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## .Delete.

6gun Kid said:


> I never said my way was the right way, In fact I never gave you a "way". I said you are causing physical damage to an immature horse.


It was more of a general statement.


----------



## .Delete.

Deschutes said:


> Delete, I'm curious as to what the end fate would be for the horse once you graduate? Will he continue his schooling, or do you have plans of maybe purchasing if he turns out well?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It all depends on what the owner wants. If i were to purchase a baby it would not be him. There is a Certain Potential baby that is freakishly good legged that i have considered stealing :lol::lol:

I won't be owning a horse for a long long time. I haven't owned a horse in years. Really, I may never own a horse again. I like riding other peoples' horses alot better. But, I am taking a break from the equines for a while. I am actually changing my major after this semester to Business, and am getting a job at a local car dealership to knock down those loans! I need more financial stability before I venture back into horses. 

Im sure where ever he ends up he will continue his schooling.


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## ligoleth

Aww, that sucks. But hey! Financial stability is a necessity. 

I hope whoever continues his work continues to help him grow in leaps and bounds.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## .Delete.

Deschutes said:


> Aww, that sucks. But hey! Financial stability is a necessity.
> 
> I hope whoever continues his work continues to help him grow in leaps and bounds.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Me too, he has alot of potential to be a good horse. He just needs a push ( or shove :wink in the right direction.


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## tinyliny

I would be curious to hear what 6Gun would recommend. I do think this problem horse is a difficult one. And , that those of us with little experience training horses (such as myself) should perhaps refrain from offering much advice. The real trainers are the ones whose advice might be more valuable.

I threw out an idea way back in the beginning, but it was just a crazy idea, not based on any personal experience. Could you relate how you would handle this situation? based on your personal experience?


----------



## .Delete.

tinyliny said:


> I would be curious to hear what 6Gun would recommend. I do think this problem horse is a difficult one. And , that those of us with little experience training horses (such as myself) should perhaps refrain from offering much advice. The real trainers are the ones whose advice might be more valuable.
> 
> I threw out an idea way back in the beginning, but it was just a crazy idea, not based on any personal experience. Could you relate how you would handle this situation? based on your personal experience?


I too would like to see what 6gun would suggest.


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## BarrelracingArabian

I'm not saying babied however when you are just learning something this extreme is jot such a goof idea. If you were working under a trainer working with this horse it'd be better. However just learning it doesn't make much sense since this is something that most can't deal with as it takes a certain feel to catch and correct in the short time before the horse is out of control. I'm not saying you can't do it just that it isn't the best thing to put learners with such dangerous behavior shown by the fact that the first girl encouraged it. Never once did I say it couldn't be done so don't get snarky with me I can voice my opinion it was nothing rude or attacking so I dont appreciate you trying to make it seem that way.


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## 6gun Kid

Honestly with the information given. I would turn him out for 6 months and start over
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## .Delete.

.Delete. said:


> I don't understand why us, as students, should be babied. We signed a liability contract, we know what we are getting into. This is a problem that needs to be solved, how am i ever going to learn how to solve it without doing it? I paid for an education, and thats what I am getting. I am learning and will continue to learn so much from this little horse. Its always the tough ones that teach you, you don't learn anything by riding easy horses.
> 
> In the real world I'm not always going to be given "safe" horses to ride. Its either figure out how to ride the rough ones or don't eat because you turned away that horse & the profit. Alot of the time starting off all you get is crappy horses with crappy attitudes.


:?: where was i being snarky or attacking you or being rude at all? I was responding to what you said..?



BarrelracingArabian said:


> I'm not saying babied however when you are just learning something this extreme is jot such a goof idea. If you were working under a trainer working with this horse it'd be better. However just learning it doesn't make much sense since this is something that most can't deal with as it takes a certain feel to catch and correct in the short time before the horse is out of control. I'm not saying you can't do it just that it isn't the best thing to put learners with such dangerous behavior shown by the fact that the first girl encouraged it. Never once did I say it couldn't be done so don't get snarky with me I can voice my opinion it was nothing rude or attacking so I dont appreciate you trying to make it seem that way.


That is what is happening, I am under the guidance of 4 different trainers while working with this horse.


----------



## .Delete.

6gun Kid said:


> Honestly with the information given. I would turn him out for 6 months and start over
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't see how that would "reset" him. He already learned to behave that way, he already learned to saddle, he already learned the basics. Yes it would give him time to mature and grow up a bit. But would it really be starting over?


----------



## Cherie

I have been busy and I did not get back here. This whole thing went to he!! in a hand-basket.

I'll be brief and then I will get back with more later. I think this student is doing a great job. She has figured out that re-training aggressive spoiled horses is like making sausage -- you don't want to see it being made -- you don't want to see anything between the pig and the finished product. 

1) This may be a 'baby, but he is spoiled -- a badly spoiled and dangerously aggressive horse. I do not think any of those people screaming "Start him over!" have ever retrained a horse that has put people in the hospital because a horse attempted to kill them. I have retrained several of them that had nearly killed people or tried to. It takes a different approach. In the beginning, I tried to 'teach' them, and re-start them. They just responded with more aggression.

2) This horse had extensive groundwork and CHOSE to disrespect all of it. It some point a person is just 'throwing good money after bad'. The horse simply will not make any progress without an 'attitude adjustment'. The horse needs to be humbled and get up with a new outlook.

3) Most of the horses I took in were headed to local slaughter houses. They had nothing to lose. Of course they had all been screwed up by other people, but at that point explaining that to the horse is not a lot of help. He MUST be shown the light. He must be taught to say "Yes Mam! I want to live another day!" 'Nice' just does not get that done.

4) I have no problem with this school teaching how it is in the 'real word' as long as they teach the two distinct different ways you train a spoiled horse and a green horse. They do not respond the same. This is where I have seen few people other than myself that can keep the two very separated. I be very light and can go through several horses without ever raising my voice or raising my hand and simply 'teaching' a horse each new step he is ready for. On the other hand, when I got in or bought a viscous spoiled horse, I could be a rough as I needed to be to teach this horse to turn over a new leaf. I was very effective and I got the job done on almost every one of them. I hope this school puts all of this in perspective and teaches student that you start out giving the horse every chance and then let the horse decide how it is going to be.

5) I would also like to state that every horse injury I have was either a complete accident or came from going to sleep or getting sloppy on or around a gentle, broke horse. [This included 35 rib fractures, a flail chest, punctured lung, lacerated kidney, a helicopter ride and 3 weeks in Intensive Care.]

Laying a horse down is very effective. Four way hobbles is another very effective tool. I think there are some things I would do differently than she is, but I do not have time to elaborate tonight. All I can say is that I would rater have her help me train horses than all of the people running her down. I just hope she learns to sort out the two opposite ways that the two different kinds of horses need to be trained.
Cherie


----------



## tinyliny

6gun Kid said:


> Honestly with the information given. I would turn him out for 6 months and start over
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
I had thought that, too, beleive it or not. I just wondered if giving the horse some time out away , time to grow up and to change, might not be a good idea. couldn't hurt.


----------



## 6gun Kid

Again without having seen him, and only going by the info given. This colt is a short (very short) step from having his mind blown, and with you continually doping things like tying him up and laying him down. It is coming shortly. Turning him out for 6 months will give him a chance to get over the trauma he has been subjected to, and starting him over will fix whatever holes are in his training.


----------



## BarrelracingArabian

If you have so many good trainers i fail to understand why you are on here asking for help. Yes Cherie has good advice as do many others but we can not see it and your trainers should be on top of it showing you what to do and such. It makes me want to know about this school so i dont go there if the trainers aren't all that great. Again not bashing just has me thinking and trying to grasp this.


----------



## palogal

.Delete. said:


> I don't see how that would "reset" him. He already learned to behave that way, he already learned to saddle, he already learned the basics. Yes it would give him time to mature and grow up a bit. But would it really be starting over?


Yes it is. Think about how much more ready you are for the fall semester after a summer break. You need mental as well as physical rest. He does too. Not only has he been to school, he's had several bad experiences.
He's also a two year old. They need time to rest and digest their learning.


----------



## 6gun Kid

Oh and for the record there is no magic "reset" button, these are individual and serious issues, whether they are pain, fear,or behavioral remains to be seen but they need to be addressed indivdually, not as a way to "reset". He is a horse not a laptop


----------



## BBBCrone

Holy moly ... this is one of those "up the ante" horses. Ouch! Delete, I can't offer you any advice. This is way beyond any knowledge I have.

But I'd like to commend you for trying, at least. I wouldn't know what's right or wrong in this situation and I'm certainly not in your shoes so am not about to go on about what is or isn't being done. I did want to thank you for sharing this experience. I've learned quite a bit from this thread 

Good luck and stay safe.


----------



## FeatheredFeet

6gun Kid said:


> Honestly with the information given. I would turn him out for 6 months and start over
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Thank you 6gun Kid. Unfortunately, what you suggest will not be done. Many of us here have suggested over and over again, that this colt be restarted with the basics. It has fallen on deaf ears. Actually, he has said that restarting is not allowed at their University. The horse goes from student to student and each is allowed to form their own 'training' ideas. Boggles my mind to even consider such a thing. 

Lizzie


----------



## .Delete.

.Delete. said:


> I will clarify.
> 
> In no way is my program perfect. There is crap here that goes on daily that really makes me wonder. There is things ALLOWED here that really makes me question. The horse was started by a different girl in the program. So yes, THEY let this horse get this bad. I do not HAVE to ride it, if i say i dont want to ride it they will give it to someone else.
> 
> I posted this for opinions, stories, and general information. Also, things like this are not posted the forum often. I feel since this is a public forum, I might not be the only one to benefit from posting it. I am very open to new ideas and new methods. I have followed CA in the past closely before he was "famous". I have read up on Parelli alot and various other trainers. I feel you can learn something from everyone.
> 
> I wanted this to be a "what would you do" type of thread. Because my methods won't always work (I know Palogal shocking!), I will full admit to that! Because of ideas and opinions of other people (from this forum and other people) I have things to fall back on. I am no ashamed to say my method didn't work. I am also not ashamed to try something new. I truly have never been faced with a horse to this extent. I wanted to hear from people who have and what they did or would do.
> 
> This is what I love the most about the horse industry. There are so many different ways to do things. Everyone has their own style and they are so passionate about it. Everyone is willing to tell you how to do something the "right" way :wink:. I don't take offense to people shoving their methods down my throat? No, I am always willing to listen, does it mean I will do what they say? Not always, but I hear them out. Horse training is an art, and every artist paints differently.


Read this ^^^ that should answer why i posted about this



BarrelracingArabian said:


> If you have so many good trainers i fail to understand why you are on here asking for help. Yes Cherie has good advice as do many others but we can not see it and your trainers should be on top of it showing you what to do and such. It makes me want to know about this school so i dont go there if the trainers aren't all that great. Again not bashing just has me thinking and trying to grasp this.


My teachers don't have the answers to everything. Even they run out of ideas sometimes. 

They are on top of it showing me what to do and they think I am going a good job. As disgusting as many of you think it is, I feel really good about it. If i run into a brick wall with this horse, I will back track and try something else. Horse training is trial and error. Im not set in my "forceful" ways, I have many different methods depending on the horse.

Heck, the sale video i posted of an HUS horse on here. If i tried to force him to do anything it would result in my butt in the dirt (he actually sent me to the hospital once). He was very fragile minded and was the type of horse that over-reacted at the smallest things. He bucked too previous trainers off before coming to my university and into my hands. We spend 2 weeks in the round pen building confidence just moving around. He was an extremely insecure horse. We had horrible horrible traffic issues, i didn't "beat" him through it. We ponied daily through heavy traffic, rode around exposing him to different volumes of traffic, and he was tied to the wall in the arena everyday. I have made leaps and bounds with that horse by going the nice and gentle route. He was a scared and a confused horse, and i saw that and changed my ways to work through it. 

I understand that every horse is different and needs different techniques. If i felt this baby was confused or scared I would be going at this a very different way. But he is not, he is throwing a tantrum because he is being told what to do. He is a snot nosed kid who needs a good spanking, grounding, and months worth of chores.


----------



## .Delete.

FeatheredFeet said:


> Thank you 6gun Kid. Unfortunately, what you suggest will not be done. Many of us here have suggested over and over again, that this colt be restarted with the basics. It has fallen on deaf ears. Actually, he has said that restarting is not allowed at their University. *The horse goes from student to student and each is allowed to form their own 'training' ideas.* Boggles my mind to even consider such a thing.


There you go, assuming again. 

If you actually read all my posts 6gun you will see that this horse was started by a girl who was scared of him. She put him in the position he is in now, so he was given to me to fix. Not handed from student to student.


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## Cherie

I do not think you would help this horse a bit by turning him out or by doing endless groundwork. It has never worked on any of the badly spoiled horses I have gotten. Quite a few of them had been turned out and came back worse. One even spent a year being a pack horse (which she did just fine). They tried to train her again and she would still buck a rider off, throw herself on them or attack them on the ground. They thought they could just teach her to carry weight by being a pack horse and she would be OK. Well, she came back just as mean.

Badly spoiled and viscous horses just do not learn by the same rule book.


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## FeatheredFeet

.Delete. said:


> There you go, assuming again.
> 
> If you actually read all my posts 6gun you will see that this horse was started by a girl who was scared of him. She put him in the position he is in now, so he was given to me to fix. Not handed from student to student.


Did you not say in a previous post, that you took him over from a previous student at your University's equine programme and that at the end of this semester, this colt will go on to be trained by another student? I thought sure I had read that somewhere.

Lizzie


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## 6gun Kid

.Delete. said:


> There you go, assuming again.
> 
> If you actually read all my posts 6gun you will see that this horse was started by a girl who was scared of him. She put him in the position he is in now, so he was given to me to fix. Not handed from student to student.


 First of all I read all your posts so who is assuming what? Secondly the quote above that you attribute to me is not me. Gonna jump me, do it for the right reasons


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## .Delete.

FeatheredFeet said:


> Did you not say in a previous post, that you took him over from a previous student at your University's equine programme and that at the end of this semester, this colt will go on to be trained by another student? I thought sure I had read that somewhere.
> 
> Lizzie


I never said what will happen to him in the future. I don't know what will happen, its up to the owner. Its not my horse.


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## .Delete.

6gun Kid said:


> First of all I read all your posts so who is assuming what? Secondly the quote above that you attribute to me is not me. Gonna jump me, do it for the right reasons


Easy, I was not referring to you in the quote i posted. Feathered mentioned you personally in her post as in " 6gun look how awful these people are". So i addressed you as well. I wasn't jumping on you at all.


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## ligoleth

Jeez... Can't we skip all the bickering and get to the delightful progress that will be made?

Which, I might add, am very excited to see.


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## tinyliny

This moderator just removed a bunch of posts bringing a PM argument/discussion to the open forum. Don't . PM stands for "private message"

Nuff said.


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## 6gun Kid

.Delete. said:


> Easy, I was not referring to you in the quote i posted. Feathered mentioned you personally in her post as in " 6gun look how awful these people are". So i addressed you as well. I wasn't jumping on you at all.


 ok fair enough I just reread it, and I apologize


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## cpr saves

I have just read this entire thread and my stomach is in an awful knot. I feel for both the horse and Delete for being put in a position which seems to be something way beyond what is necessary to turn this situation around. 

One thing in particular that bothers me is that I have not yet heard a single reply that the horse has been checked out for proper saddle fit. I am completely opposed to riding a two year old in the first place, but if you are going to do it anyway, Please have the good sense to check this out. Have a chiropractor come do a complete evaluation. All this flipping and throwing around could most certainly cause a misalignment which could cause pain. 

Another thing is the acceptance of these techniques which flip the horse over while it's attempting to rear and/or throwing it to the ground, sitting on its head and more. Flipping a horse over can easily cause permanent neurological damage to the spine. The other techniques are sadly thought to be just fine by many people but I would never choose to do that to a horse that I wanted to become my partner.

I have seen a couple of mentions about developing trust. I have a horse that was very similar to yours when it arrived. He was ruined by too much pressure at way too young of an age. He was a baby too. It took 2 years for him to finally take that 1st step of real trust. We have built on that and it has been an awesome turnaround. Was that the only training? No, but we started from scratch again and let him understand that he was no longer going to be man-handled so he didn't need to lash out as an automatic reaction.

My heart is breaking for this young guy. I won't pretend to know what the exact answer is but I can't help but shake my head and think of this ending in a train-wreck for both horse and rider. 

Finally, no, he was not born this way. Horses are not born to be like this. Horses like this are the result of humans. They are reacting the only way they know how - to poor or non-existent training. I hope the techniques you are currently employing result in a horse that can eventually feel the trust between human and horse and is not just a horse that has succumbed to being overtaken physically.


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## FeatheredFeet

Easy, I was not referring to you in the quote I posted. Feathered mentioned you personally in her post as in " 6gun look how awful these people are". So I addressed you as well. I wasn't jumping on you at all. 

Just for the record, nowhere within this message thread or anywhere in any message thread on this forum, have I ever said anything such as 'look how awful these people are.' This was purely made up by the OP.

Lizzie


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## LisaG

I wish there was a little more meat on this thread and less bickering. The advice from people who have actually dealt with this problem, along with the progress reports, are interesting. The constant criticism, rephrased over and over, is not (but I guess that's the Internet).

Personally, I wouldn't have the stomach to deal with this horse. I don't like having to get that rough with horses, and I'd be scared of being hurt. But I think you're probably on the right track. 

I (usually) like starting my own horses, and I've dealt with timid colts, confused colts, and really sensitive colts that are easily scared. But this horse doesn't sound like any of the above. He sounds spoiled. It's too bad. It's going to be real tough to get him on the right track again.

Anyway, I don't have much advice. I was going to suggest ponying him, as has already been suggested. I also like riding colts in lots of snow, as it tires them out more quickly and cushions any unscheduled dismounts, but I don't know if that's an option for you.


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## christopher

palogal said:


> seriously?? Babies require entirely different handling than an adult trained horse.


that doesn't answer the question. in what way do baby horses need to be handled differently to adult horses? and why?



palogal said:


> And you're completely wrong. This is a BABY. The correct alternative is to restart..correctly.


and how would one go about doing that? keeping in mind that you can't just tell a horse to forget something


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## VelvetsAB

palogal said:


> I tried to be done...I failed.
> The fact that anyone is condoning treating a BABY like this is just disgusting.


_So if you had a human baby, and you let them get away with something when they are little, but then all of a sudden as a teenager tell them they can't do that and not expect them to have a temper tantrum? Good luck with that one._


_Delete has remained open minded throughout this whole thread. The only thing she ever turned down as not an option was letting this horse have a let down period to restart him. However, she also says why she cannot, which others chose to ignore and pushed her towards it, even with repeated declines. Someone suggested clicker training, and she openly accepted the idea of it, even though she was going to put her own twist on it. Isn't that the best type of trainer? One that is going to listen to the horse and determine what s/he needs?_


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## deltadawn

i really hope everything works out well for the two of yous. i started reading this thread to hopfully get some info. i had bought a horse very similar to this from a friend. he was a spoiled rooten colt who got by w/ everything. He wound up unloading both barrels on someone ( crushing one eyesocket) so i thought that i could get him teach him respect and brake'em. Once he got to my house i worked him a lot in round pen, sacked him out, but couldnt seem to get anywere with him. You couldnt trust him. He was extremly nervouse and on edge all the time , i beleive it had alot to do with my gelding scarying the crap out of him and getting by with evrything with the previouse owners. I have broke horses before, but not one that is scared and therefore very aggressive. ufortunatly, the horse kicked another person and shattered there shoulder. I was in way over my head with this horse. I sold him because he needed a certain trainer, and i was diff. was not the one for him. The latest owner with in 5 days had got respect from him, and was on his back riding. A complete turn around. Basically what im saying be careful, a aggressive horse is doc bills waiting in the mail if you havent handled/trainded/delt with these kinds of horses.


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## Dreamers Mom

*Buck*

This whole situation, reminds me of the horse that was put down in the movie Buck. I don't completely agree with a 'perfectly good horse' being put down, but I can understand why the lady finally did put the horse down. If a horse doesn't know it's a horse, doesn't respect people or has aggression issues, it can be dangerous. Many people don't think twice about putting down an aggressive dog, but a lot more try not to put down an aggressive horse. When you think about it, most horses can do a lot more damage than a dog in a short amount of time. It sounds like this horse needs stability and a very very experienced handler. If he doesn't get that, then the best option may be to put him down, because he is a danger to himself, other horses and people. But that's just my take on it.


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## Army wife

I would just like to say, no horse TRUSTS a human until it RESPECTS a human. And how do you get trust and respect from an aggressive, spoiled and dangerous horse? Age makes very little difference imo. If anyone has anything more to elaborate as constructive training ideas, please add them. But I sure am getting sick of flipping through all the pages of bickering, and I doubt that I'm the only one. I really want to hear how this turns out. 
Also, sorry mods for being snarky earlier. I didn't mean to offend anyone here who does friendship training....lol....(That was not meant as sarcasm.)


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## 6gun Kid

christopher said:


> that doesn't answer the question. in what way do baby horses need to be handled differently to adult horses? and why?


 IM not Palogal, but I did post earlier on the damage to immature joints that is definitely one way the training needs to be handled differently.


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## Dreamers Mom

christopher said:


> that doesn't answer the question. in what way do baby horses need to be handled differently to adult horses? and why?


I would add on that baby horses, like baby children, have a different mentality than adult horses. They need to be reminded, they push their boundaries and they are very curious among other thing. But if you get an adult horse that has had poor initial training, it can have very similar mentality to a baby and this is because horses are prey animals by nature and you must train respect and trust.


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## christopher

6gun Kid said:


> IM not Palogal, but I did post earlier on the damage to immature joints that is definitely one way the training needs to be handled differently.


from the physical perspective that's fair enough, but as far as the behaviour goes, saying "don't treat it like such beacuse it's a baby" doesn't help anyone



Dreamers Mom said:


> But if you get an adult horse that has had poor initial training, it can have very similar mentality to a baby


so whether or not a horse behaves like an adult or a baby is to do with the quality of it's training, and not it's age?


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## 6gun Kid

christopher said:


> from the physical perspective that's fair enough


 I didn't comment on "baby" behavior other than to say it sounds like this horse is about to be mind blown, and that is not age specific. I am more worried about the long term effects of having its legs tied up as a 2 year old


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## 4horses

The issue I have with this, is that there have been several different opinions on starting this horse, and out of them all, the rider chooses to go to the most forceful approach. This is without taking into consideration the holes in the horses training or doing anything to remedy those holes. 

I would not be riding this horse or knocking this horse off his feet. I would have that horse in a round pen working off voice commands walk trot canter, having the horse stop to face me, teaching him to side pass off voice command, back up. I would use Clinton Anderson and work on developing that lateral flexion from the ground.

I would be leaning on his back daily and start working on getting him less reactive to his environment (so he is not exploding/spooking at things).

I would teach this horse a head down cue so if he starts feeling like rearing, I could just ask him to drop his head. Whatever cue used needs to be transferable to under saddle work. I would get him ground driving well- instead of being dragged around the arena. I would be introducing him to working in a headset as well, and working on that give to the reins. All this takes time, which the original poster is not doing.

If and only if this horse offered true aggression towards me would I be using the whip to discipline him and make him work. All these building blocks and fair consistent training will help calm the horse, build trust and get rid of the pushy behavior. Once this horse is relaxed while lunging, and calmly responding to everything I ask on the ground, it would be time to fix the issues in the saddle. 

As long as he understands what I am asking and he is not getting beaten on (except for aggression), he should learn to follow me as the leader. This approach has not failed with any of the horses I have ever worked with, and has gotten faster results than any sort of beating ever will. 

There are very few horses that actually need to be laid down. I am not convinced this horse is one of them. That training method should only be used as a last resort once other methods fail and only if this horse is truly aggressive. I do not feel like he is- yes he rears, but I don't see any mention of him charging or trying to kick someone. Refusing to stand in cross ties- kicking and biting the rope is not a big deal to me, as that is young horse behavior. 

If you took a spoiled autistic child who hits and bites his parents and decided to beat the tar out of him, or knock him down, tie him up and scare the daylights out of him, that would be considered child abuse. 

A horse will take a certain amount of abuse, and is even smart enough to avoid that abuse in the future. But pushed too hard, like this baby is, and you are just asking for that horse to explode and do some serious damage. Especially if this horse is not being shown any way out. It would not surprise me at all if the horse holds all his frustration in until he explodes, and hurts someone or himself. 

This horse is going to be needing some serious rehab when this "training" is complete. Assuming he survives that long and is not put down by the end of the class. :-(


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## Cherie

This IS an unusual horse. Thank goodness there are not a lot of them his age. There also are not a lot of fillies or mares this aggressive and spoiled. I have seen both 2 year olds and mares this spoiled, but they are not common. My husband and I inherited a 2 year old spoiled filly that the previous trainer at a big cutting horse place had ruined. He ruined 4 or 5 of them, but one filly (sired by Boon Bar) and one 2 year old stud sired by Lucky Star Mac (his last crop) were this mean and aggressive. After this filly was broke, she went on to be sold for $7,000.00 to a guy that showed her in several cutting futurities. 

Let me clear up something else: A foal is a baby. This horse is equivalent to a teenager -- you know -- like the one that just shot and killed his mother and 26 other people -- like the ones at Columbine. A two year old can get this mean. I've seen one yearling that was this mean, but this is very unusual. He had big grown men treed and running for their lives until my old Vet got his hands on him. He front-footed him (one thing I've never done or even know how), three guys jumped on him while he was down, held him down, they castrated him and sat on him for 30 minutes. He got up a totally different horse. If you have never seen the 180 degree turnaround laying a horse down can, you should shut up about it because you are just running your mouth without experience that anything you would do would work. The fact is that most horses this anti-social and spoiled just get put down.

I have been handed several horses over the years that were much more aggressive than the horse in the 'Buck movie'. I really did not think he was very bad, especially for a stud. I would have laid him down and cut him while he was there, sat on his head for a while and let him up when he relaxed and gave the big "sigh" I always looked for. It is like a verbal "I give up now"! If you know what your doing, it gives you a new starting place.

I have used a running W but I like 3 or 4 way hobbles much better. Most aggressive horses will throw themselves with the 3 or 4 ways on and they think they did it to themselves. They blame the behavior which is the best you can ask for. If a horse that needs to be laid down does not throw himself, I just tie up a front foot and pull his head around. Sometimes just the 4 ways is enough to humble a horse without laying down.

Whoever said "You have to have respect before you can get trust" is 100% correct. ALL horses have to respect boundaries before they will trust anyone.


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## roxxy

I haven't read all the posts on here, but IF he is that nasty on the ground I wouldn't be riding him and I'd be going back to the very basics
also I'm not a fan of a horse being backed at 2.. he might have been too rushed aswell which wouldnt have helped..
So if it was me I'd leave the riding till he's 3 and concentrate on getting his trust and getting him to respect you as a leader and that he can't be aggressive, I think you need to address he is aggressive through fear of humans? or fear of pain? or just lack respect? Once you know that then you can focus on how to get him where he needs to be

Maybe look at a few monty roberts videos? see if you can get any tips from there
Also is he gelded?
Also don't agree with use of hobbles as the horse will surely know by you presence that you've had something to do with it and will start to fear you near his legs?


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## Sunny

I just read this whole thing (and am now running late for class; darn you HF!!) and I feel the need to chime in and say that, delete, I back you completely. I also agree with Cherie's advice.

Good luck and looking forward to updates.
Now, off to take a microbiology test. Le sigh.


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## Cherie

I have used hobbles for 50 years. I have used 3 way and 4 way hobbles for about 45 of those years. Dumb me -- I though I invented them since I had never seen them before. I decided I wanted to shackle a horse's front feet to his back ones when I had a horse run nearly as fast with front hobbles on as he could without them. They have been what I have used ever since -- especially to teach a horse to hobble with front hobbles so they don't learn to run in them. Then, quite by accident, I found out that a horse that has learned to stand still in 4 ways can get a front or hind foot caught in a fence or anything else and they will patiently stand there and not 'self-destruct' or hurt themselves -- even years later. I have been riding them years later and ridden them into loose wire laying in the tall grass. They just 'locked up' and did not scratch off a hair while they waited for me to cut the wire or untangle them. There is no 'down-side' to using 2, 3 or 4 way hobbles.

I have never had one single horse show any resentment -- ever -- to me or the hobbles or to being laid down, for that matter. Quite the opposite. They have all been 'humbled' by them and it greatly calmed them down and took most if not all of the fight and resentment out of them.

On the other hand, I have seen numerous horses show great resentment toward whips. It is one of the reasons that I refuse to use them for anything on a difficult horse. Using a whip to make this horse go forward is the only thing that still bothers me about this person and this horse. I'd be jerking him out of his tracks with a good 'snubbing horse'. [This, by the way, is a LOT different than 'ponying' a horse.] As a matter of fact, many of the viscous horses I have re-trained were made mean by the improper use of whips. I would guess that it has played a big part in this horse's behavior. Once a horse has developed this aversion to whips, they usually react negatively to them from then on.


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## busysmurf

.Delete. For what it's worth, I think you have the right idea with this horse. You've shown a great deal of maturity in your responses to posts here, and your descriptions of how you are working thru this horses issues with the "restrictions" you are facing. While I don't have any other suggestions not already posted, I agree 100% on the path you've decided to try.

In a perfect world, with unlimited time & resourses, would starting this guy over work? Probably. Would it be the BEST solution? Maybe, maybe not. You have to work with what you are given. As a trainer, you are given a timeframe by your client (just as you are with your time at school allowed for working with this guy). Sometimes it's 30 days, sometimes it's more. Is A-Z possible in a short time? Most horses, no. If someone in the "real" world sends you a horse like D's & gives you 90 days to "fix" him, you better make some sort of progress in that area or you won't be making a paycheck. Yes, some clients are understanding & will give you more time. BUT if you are advertising yourself as a "trainer", you are being PAID for your experience in solving problems relatively quickly with no bad after affects. Taking the time to start from square one with a horse that has learned he is the boss & he is intimidating to me is spinning your wheels.

To start completely over is to say that any already learned behavior doesn't exist. It doesn't matter the age of the horse. A horse, at any age, who hasn't been handled by humans has NOT learned the ways to "be the boss" over people. The horse in this post has. He now needs to re-learn the behavior but needs to know the consequences.

When starting out a baby baby to lead or stand or whatever, if they display a incorrect action, it is corrected. Right? It's the same concept with this guy. He is displaying the incorrect action, therefor needs to be shown the correct action.

He has shown that intimidation has worked for him in the past, because he wasn't shown the correct action. If D's methods are considered harsh by some, I ask you this. How is her methods any different than a mare laying out her foal for poor behavior? A baby who kicks & bites & disrespects his mother WILL get put in his place!

Side note: Cherie, I'd love to learn more about using hobbles. I never had because they aren't used around here. And I'm just smart enough to know, that if you don't know how to use something. DON'T!!


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## xxdanioo

I've read this whole thread- it's been very interesting. I just have one question that I don't think was clarified- is the horse coming 3 this spring, or is he a newly turned 2 year old?


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## SaddleOnline

I didn't finish reading all of the posts, but having attended/graduated an equine university myself, I know that the point is for the students to learn, and that is what is happening here. If the students are just riding around in the ring on dead broke schoolies, what are they learning? 

Everyone in this post needs to keep in mind that EVERY horse is different- cookie cutter training attempts are what leads to the situation the OP is trying to fix. A good trainer is one that reads the horse and adapts their training to that specific horse's problems and learning style, and does what needs to be done. Obviously the nicey nicey approach did not work for this particular horse, so the OP has changed the training technique and is getting things accomplished. 

Best of luck OP, it sounds like things are headed in a much more positive direction.


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## EquineBovine

Just quickly - My mum always said, when ever she had a chronic rearer, smash a egg on their head. It may sound stupid but it makes them think they have hit their head and are bleeding. 
Be warned, some horses will panic at this but it worked for my mum )


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## palogal

EquineBovine said:


> Just quickly - My mum always said, when ever she had a chronic rearer, smash a egg on their head. It may sound stupid but it makes them think they have hit their head and are bleeding.
> Be warned, some horses will panic at this but it worked for my mum )


 
I've seen this done. I'm not sure if it worked to stop the rearing or not but it was the funniest things I have EVER seen. The look on the horse's face was priceless.


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## COWCHICK77

I completely agree with Army Wife's comment, "no horse TRUSTS a human until it RESPECTS a human".
After this colt starts respecting THEN you can work on the trust. People seem to think that laying a horse down means being "mean" to him for the rest of his life, no it does not. Obviously .Delete. is not emotional about the situation and wants to torture him for the fun of it. She wants to resolve the issue and move on.

Also totally agree with Cherie, If you have never seen the change in a horse after laying one down, then you have no right to thrash the method. (Loved the analogy of making sausage also the teenager comparison)

Also, I am curious as how laying a horse down or throwing one is hard on a horse especially when they lay down and get up everyday to nap. I have seen them play and fall down or even trip with me riding them and fall down. Seems like usually in the latter situation, I am the one who gets the worst of it.


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## EquineBovine

palogal said:


> I've seen this done. I'm not sure if it worked to stop the rearing or not but it was the funniest things I have EVER seen. The look on the horse's face was priceless.


 :shock: <--- something like that hehe 
It has stopped the rearing on the ones I know but I personally cannot do it as my balance sucks and to carry an egg, ready to use just in case and then having enough wits about you during a rear to break it on the head is a mean feat!


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## EquineBovine

Oh also, been a bit stupid, is 'laying a horse down' when, they rear up on the lead and you pull them over?


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## palogal

COWCHICK77 said:


> I completely agree with Army Wife's comment, "no horse TRUSTS a human until it RESPECTS a human".
> After this colt starts respecting THEN you can work on the trust. People seem to think that laying a horse down means being "mean" to him for the rest of his life, no it does not. Obviously .Delete. is not emotional about the situation and wants to torture him for the fun of it. She wants to resolve the issue and move on.
> 
> Also totally agree with Cherie, If you have never seen the change in a horse after laying one down, then you have no right to thrash the method. (Loved the analogy of making sausage also the teenager comparison)
> 
> *Also, I am curious as how laying a horse down or throwing one is hard on a horse especially when they lay down and get up everyday to nap. I have seen them play and fall down or even trip with me riding them and fall down.* Seems like usually in the latter situation, I am the one who gets the worst of it.


Laying down for a nap and being forced onto the ground are very different. Forcing a horse to the ground when his growth plates have not closed verses a mature adult horse are very different as well. I have laid down a few (adult) horses, and yes it does help a lot when nothing else will.

It's not the laying down that is the issue, it's laying a baby down. IMO, and I'm the minority, two year olds should not be ridden. Period. I don't even have a problem with an aggressive approach to a horse that is a mature adult and knows better, having knocked the fire out of a few myself. However, again, this is a baby.


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## Canterklutz

EquineBovine said:


> Just quickly - My mum always said, when ever she had a chronic rearer, smash a egg on their head. It may sound stupid but it makes them think they have hit their head and are bleeding.
> Be warned, some horses will panic at this but it worked for my mum )


Doesn't really work that well. Neither does newspaper. I've actually seen it exacerbate rearing in some casees.


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## COWCHICK77

EquineBovine said:


> Oh also, been a bit stupid, is 'laying a horse down' when, they rear up on the lead and you pull them over?


Laying down is not pulling one over when he rears, it is gently laying down. Throwing one is like you described, pulling him over when he rears making him think his own behaviour caused him to fall down



palogal said:


> Laying down for a nap and being forced onto the ground are very different. Forcing a horse to the ground when his growth plates have not closed verses a mature adult horse are very different as well. I have laid down a few (adult) horses, and yes it does help a lot when nothing else will.
> 
> It's not the laying down that is the issue, it's laying a baby down. IMO, and I'm the minority, two year olds should not be ridden. Period. I don't even have a problem with an aggressive approach to a horse that is a mature adult and knows better, having knocked the fire out of a few myself. However, again, this is a baby.


He is not a baby. He is an obnoxious "teenager" like Cherie described.
I have started colts by laying them down and they went on to be solid ranch horse ground pounders that went on to work up into...well as far as I know, still working. Your idea of it being harmful doesn't hold water to me when I have started colts that way many years ago and still sound and working. Then have horses started as 3 and 4 year olds started that didn't make to their teens.


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## palogal

COWCHICK77 said:


> Laying down is not pulling one over when he rears, it is gently laying down. Throwing one is like you described, pulling him over when he rears making him think his own behaviour caused him to fall down
> 
> 
> 
> He is not a baby. He is an obnoxious "teenager" like Cherie described.
> I have started colts by laying them down and they went on to be solid ranch horse ground pounders that went on to work up into...well as far as I know, still working. Your idea of it being harmful doesn't hold water to me when I have started colts that way many years ago and still sound and working. Then have horses started as 3 and 4 year olds started that didn't make to their teens.


 
He's TWO. He's a baby.


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## COWCHICK77

palogal said:


> He's TWO. He's a baby.


Yes he is.


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## ligoleth

I dunno. From the update I got, that so called baby is making a very nice turn around using methods you state are so wrong, Palogal


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## LynnF

After making it all the way through the 25 odd pages of childish squabbling to pick out the bits that I actually wanted to read, I would just like to point out that obviously the OP has picked a method and it seems to be working so everybody who thinks she is 'wrong' or 'mean' or 'horrible' should just stop reading/replying. 
I for one am interested to hear how this is going to turn out and don't think there is anything wrong with what is being done. If all you have to add is a snarky comment or something that the OP doesn't want to hear maybe you should take your comments elsewhere. It is hard to learn from/appreciate a topic when you have to fight your way through a ****ing match.


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## Skyseternalangel

EquineBovine said:


> Oh also, been a bit stupid, is 'laying a horse down' when, they rear up on the lead and you pull them over?


No.


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## PunksTank

I think the argument Pal is trying to make is not about his mental age, but physical. At 2 years old their knees are just beginning to close, but their backs haven't closed yet. 
"
 *The Schedule of Growth-Plate Conversion to Bone*​ The process of converting the growth plates to bone goes from the bottom of the animal up. In other words, the lower down toward the hoofs you look, the earlier the growth plates will have fused; and the higher up toward the animal's back you look, the later. The growth plate at the top of the coffin bone (the most distal bone of the limb) is fused at birth. What that means is that the coffin bones get no taller after birth (they get much larger around, though, by another mechanism). That's the first one. In order after that:


 Short pastern - top and bottom between birth and 6 months. 
Long pastern - top and bottom between 6 months and one year. 
Cannon bone - top and bottom between 8 months and 1.5 years 
Small bones of the knee - top and bottom of each, between 1.5 and 2.5 years 
Bottom of radius-ulna - between 2 and 2.5 years 
Weight-bearing portion of glenoid notch at top of radius - between 2.5 and 3 years
Humerus - top and bottom, between 3 and 3.5 years 
Scapula - glenoid or bottom (weight-bearing) portion � between 3.5 and 4 years
Hindlimb - lower portions same as forelimb 
Hock - this joint is "late" for as low down as it is; growth plates on the tibial and fibular tarsals don't fuse until the animal is four (so the hocks are a known "weak point" - even the 18th-century literature warns against driving young horses in plow or other deep or sticky footing, or jumping them up into a heavy load, for danger of spraining their hocks). 
Tibia - top and bottom, between 3 and 3.5 years 
Femur - bottom, between 3 and 3.5 years; neck, between 2.5 and 3 years; major and 3rd trochanters, between 2.5 and 3 years Pelvis - growth plates on the points of hip, peak of croup (tubera sacrale), and points of buttock (tuber ischii), between 3 and 4 years.
 And what do you think is last? The vertebral column, of course. A normal horse has 32 vertebrae between the back of the skull and the root of the dock, and there are several growth plates on each one, the most important of which is the one capping the centrum. These do not fuse until the horse is at least 5 � years old (and this figure applies to a small-sized, scrubby, range-raised mare. The taller your horse and the longer its neck, the later the last fusions will occur. And for a male - is this a surprise? - you add six months. So, for example, a 17-hand Thoroughbred or Saddlebred or Warmblood gelding may not be fully mature until his 8th year - something that owners of such individuals have often told me that they "suspected").


 The lateness of vertebral "closure" is most significant for two reasons. One: in no limb are there 32 growth plates! Two: the growth plates in the limbs are (more or less) oriented perpendicular to the stress of the load passing through them, while those of the vertebral chain are oriented parallel to weight placed upon the horse's back. Bottom line: you can sprain a horse's back (i.e. displace the vertebral physes - see Figs. 5 and 8) a lot more easily than you can displace those located in the limbs. 
 Here's another little fact: within the chain of vertebrae, the last to fully close" are those at the base of the animal's neck (that's why the long-necked individual may go past 6 years to achieve full maturity - it's the base of his neck that is still growing). So you have to be careful - very careful - not to yank the neck around on your young horse, or get him in any situation where he strains his neck (i.e., better learn how to get a horse broke to tie before you ever tie him up, so that there will be no likelihood of him ever pulling back hard. For more on this, see separate article in this issue)."




That's just one of the numerous articles I found on when horse's growth plates fuse. Read particularly the last paragraph about not stressing the neck of an animal who's growth plates in their vertebrae. I imagine throwing a horse would be more than mild stress on all it's unclosed joints. I've heard the argument "well I've done it before and it hasn't hurt them" - you can flip a coin 100 times and get all heads... It's not likely but can happen.




Honestly, I very much commend the OP's open mind and willingness to take advice. But it sounds to me like they weren't really looking for advice from anyone other than Cherie (as they asked for her advice in the beginning). Which is fine, but if that were the case they may have been better off PMing Cherie. I don't expect anyone to train horses like I do - everyone has different means to the same end. My only disappointment in this situation is not that she did what she did but the reasoning behind it. It feels very much to me like the OP is looking for a quick fix, even if it's not permanent or valuable. They need to pass this class so they're rushing a young, immature horse through something it doesn't fully understand. 

It sounds to me like this horse, yes was spoiled, allowed to get away with very much. But this isn't a mean spirited horse, he was taught that rearing relieves the pressure better than any thing else he did. Perhaps this was someone else's failing. But brutalizing a horse who doesn't know what he's supposed to do is unfair IMO. I'm all for putting a rude, violent horse in their place, through any means needed - but not a young horse who never even knew what the right thing to do was.
The horse had been taught that the only way to relieve the pressure is to rear - now he's being thrown to the ground and his head sat on because he's doing what he was taught to do. He's angry, frustrated and confused. This horse needs to be taught the right thing to do, he needs to be taught the correct answer - not forced into it. He also should be given another year or two to grow up and be a freaking horse. He's going to have to work the rest of his useable life - and hopefully enjoy a retirement before he dies (but that happens so rarely) - there is NO need to start him this early, this harshly.


I am always a person to take the path of least resistance, maybe that's why I get along so well with horses - we think the same  So to me I find it sad and frustrating to take a situation that with time and patients could be fixed calmly and safely and turn it into a battle with a potentially disastrous outcome.
OP, I wish you great luck.


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## EquineBovine

Skyseternalangel said:


> No.
> 
> How to Lay Down a Horse - YouTube


 This computer sucks so only managed to see a few seconds. Looks complex! Will watch once I'm home. Thanks for that


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## smguidotti

I haven't read all of the thread but from my experience, you can't fix behavorial problems like the OP described in the saddle (especially at two). Teach him on the ground to listen and respect then transition into the saddle.


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## oh vair oh

Personally, if my personal beliefs differed from the intent of the coursework, I would drop the class and wait for another semester. If I think something isn't right, then I'm going to stick to my gut. 

But I guess that's why I didn't go to college to ride horses, and I turned down my university's offer to be on the equestrian team because of bad practices. Good luck in whatever you do; but what matters at the end of the day is how you feel in your skin.


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## Cherie

I, for one have seen no advantage to waiting as long as a trainer does not ride one extremely long or hard. Of course a horse can be ridden so hard they end up crippled, but so can the older horses. Most of the babies are just fine.

I actually think the exercise and weight carrying strengthens a young horse's bone, feet and musculature. Studies done of race horses have shown that no more horses break down when they are started at 2 than at 3. The correct way to start any horse is to go slow enough to let them get 'legged up' good before fast or hard work is pushed at them. 

Laying a horse down is a LOT easier on joints than longeing or working a horse in a round pen. Small circles, especially at a lope, is much harder on joints and is definitely NOT NATURAL exercise. Carrying too much body weight is much harder on a horse than moderate work on a horse that is fit. Obese youngsters are about as fit and healthy as fat horses. A horse that is overweight, pen or stall raised and un-used is about as fit as a man that has done nothing for years other than just sit around watching a computer screen or video game. I'll take the 2 year old horse any day that has been exercised and ridden enough to be legged up and healthy. 

I do not care one iota when different joints completely close. I think that is waaaay to late to develop good legs, joints, tendons, ligaments, muscle and bone. Do you really think you can make a track star out of a 25 year old person that had no running or physical training and conditioning before the age of 25? YOU try to coach that fat, soft 25 year old wannabe athlete. I'll take the high school track star. Sure, you can over-work any horse or human athlete, but your chances of keeping the athlete or horse healthy and sound that sat around until they were completely mature physically is somewhere between slim and none. 

It is much easier to develop a young horse than and older one. It is much easier to instill a good 'work ethic' in a young horse. An older horse that had no demands made of them as a youngster is not easy to get to a World Class level in most events. 

Keeping 2 and 3year olds sound just takes common sense like everything else. Letting them get older has just not been proven better by facts. Besides that, horses aimed at the 2 and 3 year old futurity programs get worth less money every day they go past January of their 2 year old year without age appropriate training for the occupation they are being aimed for. 

Raising them out in big pastures and NOT over-feeding them is far more important than the dates of their first rides.


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## PunksTank

I completely agree with most of what you just said Cherie - laying a horse down isn't terribly strenuous, round pen/lunging work is just _terrible_ for babies - I think round pens and lunging, while valuable in their own rights, are massively over-used and way to depended upon. Which is why line-driving is my favorite thing for young horses. I think young horses should be fit and healthy - they should be line-driven everywhere. I don't think young horses need to be spoiled or let get away with anything an adult horse shouldn't. But I do believe horses should be given some portion of their life to just be horses - and not many make it to 'retirement', and are often to broken to enjoy it if they do, no matter how they were started. But throwing a horse, as in pulling them down from a rear, is _very _dangerous, with an adult or a 2 year old. While I can justify throwing an adult horse who knows better who is throwing a temper tantrum and just wanting to be a terrible pill - this particular 2 year old we're discussing was never taught _right_ so punishing him for the only thing he's ever been told was right IMO is just backhanded.
He has never been shown the correct answer. If someone asked you, what's 2+2 - and no matter what you answer you get slapped, eventually you're going to get up and punch the jerk - that's what this horse did - and the person stopped asking. He was taught that was the correct answer. He needs to be shown that the correct answer is moving away from pressure calmly. This doesn't require this level of punishment - if you start with what the horse knows and build from there allowing the horse to _learn_. 

All this being said I couldn't pass up the opportunity. Yes an adult who's never trained when they were young _can_ compete in triathlons. This man does it while carrying his Cerebral Palsy http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...arrying-teenager-daughter-cerebral-palsy.html


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## Army wife

Punks, maybe you should go back and read some of the info. I think you might have skipped over the OP hitting this point. She said (paraphrase) that the colt couldn't be good long enough for anyone to teach him the right answer, until she stepped it up a notch. And as harsh as it may sound, she gave him the chance to pick the right choice for once. She was only as hard on him as she had to be. And as i stated previously, it really breaks my heart for a horse to get to this point. But at least he's got someone trying to fix him rather than just putting a bullet in his head. Good, bad, or indifferent. The horse is making progress, instead of hurting ppl.


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## .Delete.

*UPDATE*


Yesterday I decided to only lunge him and see how he did. We lunged for about 15 minutes and he moved forward willing using only my voice. I hopped on, this time with no one on the ground with a whip. My goal today was to march around the whole arena without having a tantrum. And we did exactly that! He only balked once and I instantly got after him and sent him forward again. He was almost "too" forward today, he kept trying to lope off. Which considering I could barely get him to jog a week ago, i'll take it. I barely had to use my legs, I would click and he would jump forward with a "yes mam" type attitude. 

Now that he is going forward (for now) and not so focused on fighting me. He marched around very bright eyed, as if he had never paid attention to his surroundings before. So much to look at! I only rode him for 15 minutes and hopped off because he was being so good. Hopefully this is him starting to learn that life is so much easier when you listen. Today we are loping (if everything goes well).


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## AnalisaParalyzer

Delete, i applaud you. i would not have handled all of this crazyness as well as you, i would have been put banishment again for losing my temper. (again, sorry mods :/) so, bravo. 

secondly, way to go with this monster. i only ever dealt with one people aggressive horse since ive been training, he liked to rear up and come down on top of you if he could, and would chase and stomp you if he felt you were "pushing". it took me two weeks before i got ****ed off enough to show him i mean business, and i did have to hobble and drop him to do it. at first, i felt bad after holding him down for a couple of minutes, but when i went to let him up, he just lifted his headup heaved a big sigh, shook his head and looked at me like, "now what?" since then, hes gone on to be a 16 yr olds barrel/games pony. I think what you did is sometimes the only option for horses that would rather beat you up than be your friend. so, Kudos to your success


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## .Delete.

*UPDATE*

Today I was attacked....by my breast collar. While saddling the baby one of the snaps on my breast collar was stuck under the saddle. So on the off side I yanked really hard. It flung towards me and cracked me right above the eye . There was blood everywhere and I have a huge knot on my head. No worries tho I am fine, just have a huge headache :?.

Anyways my goal today was to march around and work on him steering AND giving his chin. I worked on showmanship for 20, then I lunged for 15 minutes, and hopped on. He was overall a good boy. I can tell he thinks about resisting alot, he swishes his tail in protest everytime i ask him to go forward. There were a few moments where he thought about it. I got after him with the reins once and that was it. We had enough forward to work on giving to the bit, to the right he is is pretty supple. So we worked alot on softening up to the left. 

He spooked a few times, but instead of rearing like he normally would when he spooks, he jumped forward. That is big progress in my mind. When we were done and cooling him off, some trail stuff was set up so i thought why not. We walked over poles, the bridge, and played with the gate. He is very careful with his feet and seemed to really enjoy what we were doing. I think we might have a trail horse on our hands . Since he is a very intelligent horse and busy minded, I think trail would do him worlds of good. 

So tomorrow we are going to play with trail more, and start loping. We didn't lope today because I didn't want to press my luck. This is only the second day he has been willing to go forward. Progress progress progress.


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## DimSum

Baby steps, baby steps


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## ligoleth

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay! That is great progress. : )
Sorry about the breast collar bit, I guess since the baby can't react, the tack has to!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## .Delete.

Deschutes said:


> Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay! That is great progress. : )
> Sorry about the breast collar bit, I guess since the baby can't react, the tack has to!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The barn managers said the same thing. He set me up! :lol::lol:


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## 40232

I got respect from my naughty, naughty 2 yr old with doing join up in a round pen.


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## LisaG

That's great news!

Yeah, I agree that it would be a good idea to give him a job when you feel he's ready. It will keep him thinking (in a good way).


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## Sunny

Good Lord, my heart sank when you said you were attacked.
That was a bad joke. LOL.


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## ligoleth

Same, sunny! But I got a laugh that a breast collar, of all things, caused that damage. 

Well played, well played.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77

You know your on the right track when it's the tack getting the best of you rather than the horse...LOL!


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## Kelli

Wow! This has been a fascinating thread. I feel like I'm learning a lot from reading these posts. I do have a question though. Do horses always improve after being laid down just once, or is this something that will have to be done again if he regresses? Just curious and wanting to learn more.

I have no experience with training, but my mom (now 70) and my grandfather who has long passed had a good sized horse farm decades ago and I know they used some of these techniques when training. I want to say they didn't like using whips either....as for why, I'm not sure. I'm going to have to go visit and pick her brain. 

Thanks for posting all the info....great post .Delete.!


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## tinyliny

I hope you won't get too greedy and go too fast. a day off to soak is always worth something.


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## 6gun Kid

.Delete. said:


> *UPDATE*
> 
> Today I was attacked....by my breast collar.


 Been there, but with me it was my stirrup, I ride with iron oxbows so you cant imagine the dent in my head.....and the blood. Sounds like you are making progress.


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## usandpets

.Delete. said:


> So tomorrow we are going to play with trail more, and start loping. We didn't lope today because I didn't want to press my luck. This is only the second day he has been willing to go forward. Progress progress progress.


I am going to agree with tinyliny. 

Just because you got a "breakthrough" with forward movement, don't push your luck. You are still having issues with him being supple, it could blow up in your face. Small steps are what you need. Get him better at the walk before you move on to the trot. Once he is good at the trot, then move onto loping. 

I may not have a ton of experience, but I've been on enough horses that when pushed into a lope, the bucks came pretty easy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LostDragonflyWings

I am just skipping around this thread and don't have any advice or experience this severe, but your story reminds me of a 13 yr old Arab I am working with right now. He was gelded late and then handled only by people who let him get his way, then they eventually became afraid at him... using a stud chain and whip when handling and always yelling at him. This went on for a few years. Enter myself. I started just turning him out for the lady who was taking care of him for his owner (the lady, not his owner, was the bad handler). From stall to turnout he was fine; a little pushy but nothing too bad. Now I take care of him full time and while he can be sweet, he is also rude, pushy, dominant, and just doesn't care. He has gotten better, but he tries nipping at your hands (especially when putting halter on, etc.-- but not in an aggressive manner, more like dominance), he trots when being handwalked (and usually doesn't listen otherwise), when he spooks he just does... regardless of where his body ends up (sometimes in your space), ignores correction, etc. When you lunge him, he doesn't listen (has gotten much better). I got tired of him not listening so put the stud chain on one day (first time I've done that, and did it for corrections not control) and he seemed mortified and angry. Due to his past, he was basically immune to it being used as a tool. People keep asking when I am going to ride him, and I keep telling them we are working on lunging and manners first. It has been months and he is just starting to respect me on the ground; I am not going to get on until that respect is a little stronger.


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## PunksTank

LostDragonflyWings said:


> I am just skipping around this thread and don't have any advice or experience this severe, but your story reminds me of a 13 yr old Arab I am working with right now. He was gelded late and then handled only by people who let him get his way, then they eventually became afraid at him... using a stud chain and whip when handling and always yelling at him. This went on for a few years. Enter myself. I started just turning him out for the lady who was taking care of him for his owner (the lady, not his owner, was the bad handler). From stall to turnout he was fine; a little pushy but nothing too bad. Now I take care of him full time and while he can be sweet, he is also rude, pushy, dominant, and just doesn't care. He has gotten better, but he tries nipping at your hands (especially when putting halter on, etc.-- but not in an aggressive manner, more like dominance), he trots when being handwalked (and usually doesn't listen otherwise), when he spooks he just does... regardless of where his body ends up (sometimes in your space), ignores correction, etc. When you lunge him, he doesn't listen (has gotten much better). I got tired of him not listening so put the stud chain on one day (first time I've done that, and did it for corrections not control) and he seemed mortified and angry. Due to his past, he was basically immune to it being used as a tool. People keep asking when I am going to ride him, and I keep telling them we are working on lunging and manners first. It has been months and he is just starting to respect me on the ground; I am not going to get on until that respect is a little stronger.


Mind me asking how you did it? What are some methods you're using to gain his respect and make him behave? Just for reference's sake.


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## LostDragonflyWings

Mostly repetition and making him wait for things. He would push you out of the way when getting him from the turnout then he would start to trot and be disobediently "silly". I made him wait while entering and exiting the gates. If he got pushy or trotted, we would head right back and do it again. When giving him his bucket, he had to learn to keep his face away until I was done. When hand walking, if he would trot a quick correction of jerking the rope would not work and tapping him on the chest with it would not work, so every time he trotted or got pushy we would circle. It gets VERY repetitive and annoying, but it seems to work the best. He would trot... we would circle (tight circle)... then he wouldn't even take two walking steps before he started trotting again... so we circle and circle and circle. At the beginning (and even quite often now) he would get upset and trot when we went to the far side of the stable, which was away from his stall. When lunging, he would cut in, not listen to commands, turn toward you, get too close, and would stop whenever he wanted. When you correct him, he turns his butt toward you and often bucks toward the center. With repetition he has gotten better, but he still gets grumpy and turns his butt in and bucks when corrected. Now that he KNOWS what is being asked of him, when he doesn't trot when I say trot (I say it twice) I take the lunge whip and smack it on the ground behind him. He knows he needs to listen, but now when he doesn't, he is learning that I am going to get after him until he does. He was great when lunging today, but on the way back to his stall he tried to trot and was a brat again.


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## Army wife

Yay for progress!! He definitely needs a job and purpose for his life


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## wild_spot

Honestly, I would be looking for the lope as well. On a sticky horse who resists forward, I want to get them in a good trot or lope and just let them bowl along without too much input. Going forward becomes the safe place where i'm not asking them anything. I wouldn't be doing *too* much suppling beyond using my inside leg and rein to keep his shoulder out. I want that forward to be really ingrained before I start asking for too much bend or lateral movement. 

If you stick at a walk too long on a sticky horse, you risk starting the battle all over again trying for the trot, and then the lope, as they get used to just giving you walk and that's it.


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## Cherie

I think this person has done a fantastic job with this nasty horse.

But, I absolutely agree with wild spot. This horse needs good 'willing' forward movement at all gaits before trying to 'refine' the forward movement. 'Forward' is much more important at this point than how pretty it is right now. She needs to get the 'willingness' going first.


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## usandpets

Looking pretty and having control are two different things. If you don't have good control at the walk, you'll have less at the trot, and probably none at the lope. That was my concern. 

Since the horse shows attitude at just moving forward, there will be more with more energy he puts into moving. If he moves out into a trot or lope on his own, I would not get after him to slow down though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77

At this point control is not as important as forward movement, in my opinion. Heck there is an ocean on a couple of sides, he will run into something at some point..or at the very least the arena fence  I think the OP has a good feel for whats going on. If I had a pile of colts to start and needed help I know I would hire her!


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## Casey02

I think my brain hurts as much as yours delete (after reading all 29 pages!):wink:


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## equitate

Imho if you are surrounded by professionals they should not even be allowing riding of a 2yo. And second, the work in hand should be very progressive. Any ridden work should be supported by 'ground help'. Start all over with the work from the beginning as if the horse had never been handled (meanwhile what is the background of the horse as a baby). Things like a horse stopping when leg pressure is added is typically baby, but it usually has an origin in work in hand and lack of ground support. Horses are NOT 'butt heads' they are CONFUSED by what is being asked of them..that is the problem of the handler/rider to sort out.


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## Cherie

Excuse me, but every college program that trains western show horses trains 2 year olds. Riding 2 year olds might not be popular with many of the recreational riders, but it is the 'bread and butter' of breed performance trainers. Students aspiring to get into professional AQHA, APHA and other breed specific western training ALL learn to start 2 year olds. Actually, they compete in the big Western Pleasure Futurities at 2 (in the fall usually) and compete in the Cutting, Reining, Reined Cowhorse and Hunter Under Saddle Futurities as 3 year olds. They not only are ridden at 2, they are ready to show by September and October of their 2 year old year.


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## COWCHICK77

Just simply "restarting" is not really going to do anything. Especially in this situation. The habit has to be interrupted first.

If restarting was the answer then anybody could retrain an aggressive horse or rearer. I do not know many trainers that like to take them on.


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## Horsesdontlie

COWCHICK77 said:


> Just simply "restarting" is not really going to do anything. Especially in this situation. The habit has to be interrupted first.
> 
> If restarting was the answer then anybody could retrain an aggressive horse or rearer. I do not know many trainers that like to take them on.


If that theory of restarting was correct Jake should have been a perfect horse....or maybe I didn't go back to the basics enough? Maybe I should have spent weeks just trying to pet him. Just approach and retreat, cause surely that would have stopped his rearing problem undersaddle. Silly me. 

Maybe Jake had been fooling me all along and maybe he really isn't a horse.


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## stevenson

go back to basic ground work. stay off his back until he is a happy willing horse.


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## Cherie

^^^ This is laughable.

SHE DID!!! She laid him down on the ground instead of letting him attack her. She used the ULTIMATE 'control over his feet' like only laying one down or killing one can do. That is why it is working. 

I know one thing for sure --- anyone with this advice (start the horse over) has never taken on an aggressive horse that was attacking their handler. Most people just kill them like the aggressive horse in the movie "Buck"! Nothing else works -- other than 'knocking' the mean out of one. 

You can take a bull whip to one like Clinton Anderson has done on TV or you can lay one down.


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## AnalisaParalyzer

if she didnt put him on the ground, he would have put her under it. she did what she had to do to prove herself the "lead" if you may. And shes getting results.


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## BBBCrone

I have to admit there's one thing about this thread that bothered me. All the "He's just a baby." comments. I had to keep re-reading the original post to make sure I understood this horse was in actual fact 2 years old. "Baby" to me, means foal. I look at Zoot who isn't even 2 yet and know for a fact this "baby" could easily kill me.

Yes he does some "baby" stuff still. But at this point he weighs close to 900lbs :-|, I would suspect by his actual 2nd birthday he'll be close to 1000 lbs. That's no baby. He's a *horse *with some baby antics thrown in for good measure. Thank goodness he doesn't act like this horse does.

Good job on what you are doing, Delete


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## franknbeans

Totally agree BBBCrone. I have had a couple who were treated like "babies" when they were 2 and they ended up being spoiled brats-one was truly dangerous, and I would happily have sent him to the meat auction had someone not come along (happened to be a male, which I think this horse needed) who would take him on. The residual from allowing them ANY disrespect as youngsters is lifelong in many cases. I am constantly after my current guy who was treated with "friendship" rather than respect as a 2 yr old. I expect that he will always test any one new.

Good job OP-I am glad you did what was necessary to get this guy on the right track. Keep up the good work, but don;t let your guard down!


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## Army wife

Knowing how much any horse, at any age, can handle mentally...is very important. As I'm sure we all know. But, "he's a baby!" is going to get someone killed. I don't think this "baby" would think twice about smashing your head in. So, you can treat him like a baby, but what happens when he hits 5? If the OP hadn't taken him down the track he's on now...he would've killed or seriously injured someone by then. Heck, I doubt he'd even make it to 5. In this case, saying that he's 2, is just an excuse for his behavior. Why wait till he's bigger and set in his ways? What's the point in eventually having to go through all of this after he's been turned out for a year? I doubt anything would changed except for the fact that he'd get bigger, stronger and more stubborn. Better to just nip it in the bud now and get on with training.


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## busysmurf

Why do sooo many INSIST there is a "CTRL, ALT, DLT" on horses? Please tell me where it is!!


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## FeatheredFeet

I think we must all remember here, that none of us know or has actually seen this horse. We can only go by what the OP has said. This is the same in any message thread on the internet these days. 

The behavior of this horse, quite well might be very frightening to some, who wouldn't take him on at all. To others, he might be something which very knowledgeable trainers, who had had experience in the past with several such horses, he would be an easy fix.

All, a few, or even hardly any of the ideas put forth for this horse, might really be the correct approach to this horse, regardless of his age. We have not seen him in action, have not seen how he behaves in certain situations or have handled him. We can only really surmise what his real problems are, but have no real evidence to confirm it.

Hopefully, the OP will have garnered some help of the fruits put forth here and that in the end, the horse will have had the real help he needs.

Lizzie


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## .Delete.

*UPDATE*

He was very good today. I still haven't loped him (well since the first time i rode him). I want to set him up for success, and not push the issue. I needed today to reassure me that he is ready to lope and not going to fight me through it. The last thing I want is for him to become spoiled at the lope too. We rode around in alot of traffic, and for the most part he was good with guiding around. I would march his butt around as fast as he could possibly trot without breaking into a lope. Which he did willingly, then i would break him down to a walk as a reward. We did alot of walk to trot transitions today. Tomorrow's update I promise will be talking about how he did at the lope.


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## 4horses

The reason people suggest going back to the beginning and re-starting the horse is to avoid using violent methods and possibly correct the problem from the ground. Yes you can throw down the horse and have a different attitude, but it doesn't mean that you have fixed the holes in his training. Nor does it mean that there wasn't a less violent way to achieve the same result. 

In general, a relaxed horse who trusts and respects his handler does not rear- with proper training from the beginning this entire situation could have been avoided. Shame on the instructor for not realizing the horse had issues and for not addressing these issues sooner. 

The OP has never mentioned how old this horse is? Did he just turn 2 in Jan? or is he an older 2 yr old? 

The university I went to started groundwork with their horses as weanlings, and as long yearlings they were already being ridden. It was a crash course in training and many of their horses did not stay sound. Last year at their horse sale, they posted videos online and I could easily pick out which ones were lame. They were also using donated horses as breeding stock which if you ask me is just asking for lameness issues and crooked legs. 

If this university is similar to mine, that means this horse has just turned two if looking at his real birthday instead of Jan 1st. 

I agree with Feathered feet- "We can only really surmise what his real problems are, but have no real evidence to confirm it." 

My guess is that they are rushing all their horses through a "crash course" in training and that many of these horses are going to have some holes in their training. Also assuming that most of the trainers are students who have not trained before and are not very experienced. 

Delete- I am glad things worked out for you, but I hope you will consider alternative training methods in the future.


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## LynnF

4horses said:


> Delete- I am glad things worked out for you, but I hope you will consider alternative training methods in the future.


If you read back through the thread you would see that Delete has trained other horses successfully using different, gentler methods and this horse was a bit out of the ordinary.


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## equitate

Finally looking at more of the posts. It is interesting that the horse is anthromorphized with human characteristics, and it does make me sad. Because not the solution are more shotgun. Horses are really a reflexion of how they have been previously handled. If it is incorrent then the new has to methodically REPLACE behaviors one at a time bring them back to install trust. Horses do not make faces at handlers if something is not out of kilter in their relationships (or their young bodies hurt), it is not that they are mean or willful or whatever else people say, but rather they have learned that they fit in above the last human. That is the HUMAN's fault, not the horse. Usually when horses (esp youngsters) learn to stop when the leg is put on it is because the rider has dropped contact with the mouth in the first place/or put the neck too low, so the horse learns that leg on/pressure means stop; again rider error in the first place. Compounded by lack of knowledge about how to fix it. Solutions become much more difficult to slowly replace behaviors than correct guideance in the first place.

Laying a horse down can be done in about 5-10 minutes w/o aggression, but by bending them and they will slowly go down. And that has an effect upon the mind and calm. It is sad when this demeaning behavior has to be used, because I often see a horse that just gives up as a result. (And if a running W is used, the knees can be ruined...is it a better solution than having to put a horse down????)

As to driving, why arent the instructors showing the methods (giving the students guidance) in which the handler will not be drug around? I have never had that happen, and I have done 1000s of horses (was the horse in a surcingle? With a handler helping at the beginning, etc). They should be there proposing progressive methods for training, and guiding the handler through their use. 

The fact that students are being taught that training to start babies, or finish training in a year is ok, or pushing the horse through to showing so early shows where the focus is ($$ not the horse). Where is the human's mind in this progression? Why is it necessary? (And yes, this is from someone who has international success over years of training). Someone has to stand up for the horse. Or perhaps all kindergarteners should be taking college chem and playing for the NFL. Young horses should be well handled, know how to react to people, perhaps lightly lunged a couple of days a week and learn how to wear a saddle. Their bodies are NOT ready for more (ever see an xray of a youngsters open knee joints?). But I guess the aftermath of these many young bodies will go to the trail riders when they are done.


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## boots

Glad you touched on the anthromorphizing that has been rampant in this thread, equitate.

A comparison came to me today in relation to this horse.

He's a young juvenille. Similar to 13/14 year old boy. He's started habits that will lead him to a life of crime, ostracization, and either getting in with a rough crowd or death. To reward this behavior by giving him a vacation (turn out, thereby removing all pressure), or treating him like a victim who is only misunderstood doesn't work with horses any better than it does with people.

.delete. is giving him better ways of interacting in society. The boy... uh, horse, is going to have some manners. And I would completely trust him if his training continues with her or some one else with as much common sense and skill. He should be a decent horse, not a made horse, but decent by the end of the school year.

This horse and his owner are fortunate that someone with huevos was in the class when they needed her to be.


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## COWCHICK77

Not sure why it is so hard to get the point across that if you lay a horse down or throw that there IS retraining involved afterwards, it gets the horse into the mindset where retraining is possible. 
Rearing(or any other habit that is ingrained) is like a deep scratch in a record, you have to give it a bump to get it out of the scratch.


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## COWCHICK77

@equitate, using a Running W used correctly would be no different than a horse using his knees to get up or down laying down. Your grasping at straws.


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## equitate

Laying a horse down is simply a standing and waiting game, using a running W is definately not, do I care for either? No. And rearers are far more dangerous than a bucker/etc. I am not grasping at straws, I have no need to do that/ I am trying to make people THINK of how to use REPLACING behaviors, do things to which the horse can say 'yes' rather than trying to bang them out of behaviors patterns.


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## PunksTank

equitate said:


> As to driving, why arent the instructors showing the methods (giving the students guidance) in which the handler will not be drug around? I have never had that happen, and I have done 1000s of horses (was the horse in a surcingle? With a handler helping at the beginning, etc). They should be there proposing progressive methods for training, and guiding the handler through their use.


I think this is a really good question. The OP is taking a course in training and handling horses. Where are the instructors, where is her guidance? What are her trainers telling her to do? Why is she getting her help from the internet instead of her teachers? If the teachers are helping her what do _they _suggest for all of this? I'm curious to know what the teachers have to say about this entire situation.


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## COWCHICK77

equitate said:


> Laying a horse down is simply a standing and waiting game, using a running W is definately not, do I care for either? No. And rearers are far more dangerous than a bucker/etc. I am not grasping at straws, I have no need to do that/ I am trying to make people THINK of how to use REPLACING behaviors, do things to which the horse can say 'yes' rather than trying to bang them out of behaviors patterns.


Have you ever used a Running W?


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## BBBCrone

I guess I don't understand the terms "violent methods" as 4horses used or "demeaning behavior" as a reference to the term "laying down a horse".

Violent methods to me means, you are beating, whipping, kicking, spurring and the like to the point you've lost sight of what you are trying to accomplished and have moved into anger mode. NONE of that type of method has been advocated in this thread that I've seen?

"Demeaning" that is something done mentally to devalue either a person or animal, almost a "shaming" type of situation. I don't see that either.

What I believe is happening is trying to break through that mental block this particular horse has. Get that switch turned off that everything has to be a fight. Once that has been accomplished, I venture to guess, the horse will be more comfortable in his own skin and be able to think clearly instead of REACT.


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## equitate

Used a running W only once on a horse that would have been sent to the killers (and have it seen it used many times). And as to laying a horse down, I have also seen what the horse are like after...and yes it is the ultimate psychological control. Imho there are sometimes generally better ways. BUt what is sad is that the horses should never get to this point. GUideance, especially for young horse development is KEY. They are not just 'baby horses' with trained horses responses. Things like 'refusing to go' is almost always either poor riding or PAIN. 

Bowing out of the debate, but hopefully handlers/riders will think of WHY the horses react as they do, and seek to replace the behaviors with ones which set up the horse to say 'yes'. And treat horses (and especially fragile young minds and bodies) with respect they deserve and not as a way to pay bills.


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## COWCHICK77

equitate said:


> Used a running W only once on a horse that would have been sent to the killers (and have it seen it used many times). And as to laying a horse down, I have also seen what the horse are like after...and yes it is the ultimate psychological control. Imho there are sometimes generally better ways. BUt what is sad is that the horses should never get to this point. GUideance, especially for young horse development is KEY. They are not just 'baby horses' with trained horses responses. Things like 'refusing to go' is almost always either poor riding or PAIN.
> 
> Bowing out of the debate, but hopefully handlers/riders will think of WHY the horses react as they do, and seek to replace the behaviors with ones which set up the horse to say 'yes'. And treat horses (and especially fragile young minds and bodies) with respect they deserve and not as a way to pay bills.


No need to bow out equitate. Basically what I was getting at is if you understood the proper use and why. Some tools are very misunderstood and that is where the miscommunication comes from.

The OP was not the one who started the colt initially, she wasn't given the chance to give him a proper start, she is cleaning up the mess left behind.


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## Ian McDonald

It's funny how we have no problem with the idea of teaching a dog to lie down but when it's a horse..suddenly not so much. Some of these NH worshipers have maybe forgotten what Tom advised Ray to do with Hondo in the first place. ;]


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## equitate

Teaching a horse to bow or lie down is WAY different than laying them down. Totally different.


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## Ian McDonald

equitate said:


> Teaching a horse to bow or lie down is WAY different than laying them down. Totally different.


Is it really totally different? What I take from my personal experience is that that line can get kinda blurred, sometimes moment-to-moment while you're actually doing it. At the end of the day this thing is still gonna lie down, though.


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## PunksTank

Ian McDonald said:


> Is it really totally different? What I take from my personal experience is that that line can get kinda blurred, sometimes moment-to-moment while you're actually doing it. At the end of the day this thing is still gonna lie down, though.


The results may be the same, but the method is what affects the horse psychologically. I've seen a number of horses taught to lay down without being touched, I'm working on it with my pony on warm days. I spray him with a hose and when he goes to lay down to roll, I click and treat and tell him 'I repeat this until he's gotten the point of 'lay down' then I can progress it to roll over or even sit up, by backing him up to a sitting position. This is all done in a slow, calm and controlled manner and without a single rope. 

What I believe Equitate is getting at with laying a horse down is that the result is a blank minded horse who's completely succumbed to the fact that we are in charge and they have no actual control over their own lives. Which in some instances is good, it _does_ humble a horse, it does make them listen, it does reset their brain. But it also takes away so much more. Many people are happy with the results, but I believe there are also many people who wouldn't look twice at a horse who has given up. 



At my rescue we have a mare who was trained using some brutal methods - we know this as fact from previous owners. She was trained as a Spanish Dancing horse (look it up). She was cross-tied by the bit (a nice long shanked one that left a good impression on her tongue) and forced to trot in place, they did the repeatedly until she would be jogging in place as soon as she was tied up, then they'd whack legs that didn't reach up high enough, to make her step higher and 'livelier' little bucks were often welcome as well. They'd then transition this to ground driving, then mounted while being lead, then mounted alone, always expected to trot in place, higher and faster. She must not have been good enough at what she did because she was passed around, until she ended up at a local kid's camp, where obviously no one could ride her, she was bouncing and bucking, but never to dislodge her rider. No one knew what to do. It was her emotional trauma that brought her to our rescue.
When standing in her stall you can see her panic attacks start. She'll stand calmly and blankly, not recognizing anything - just blank. Then she'll wake from this numb state with an explosion. You'll see adrenaline shoot up and down her legs and she'll start jogging, then popping her hind legs up and out and then finally she'll lunge out and bite her wall. She's reached the point where she's bitten a clear hole right through her stall wall - not chewing, lunging and biting. She came to us after one of her episodes at the camp where she actually kicked through the wall and got her leg hung up for the night. It took us years to learn everything about her and she is still healing emotionally. The other horses don't look at her like a horse, she doesn't communicate like one anymore. We put her out with our elderly foundered pony who is the only one to tolerate her occasional outbursts - the others are scared. She is completely submissive to this pony and spends most of the day on the other side of the paddock. She has a human who has been working with her, she now knows that she can _just walk_ when being lead, we're gradually introducing this to mounted work.

The reason I mention this horse, not to say what the OP did to this horse is anywhere near as terrible as what happened to our rescue - but to explain that horses _do_ have lasting emotional _trauma_. The 'numb' state horses shift into when they are treated like this works wonders in 'fixing' a dangerous horse, but leaves permanent effects on the horse psychologically. 
I realize that laying the horse down was only to 'reset' his mind to make him more able to accept his training in the future. But I also realize there are a number of less confrontational ways to reach the same end, with potentially less damage, emotionally or physically. But it sounds to me like the OP was looking for a faster way through this process, rather than the most appropriate.

I really do still want to know about the teachers. What are the teachers saying the student should do in this situation with such an aggressive horse? What guidance is the OP getting? Which methods is she being taught?


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## BBBCrone

I think delete already explained about the teachers, it's a page or so back I believe. At least I think she did.

I do have a question though ... for those who are so opposed to this method that was used, have ANY of you faced a horse like this? I'm hoping for honest answers here. I don't really believe this is a "common" horse. You aren't going to run into this situation every day. Re-read the original post and a couple of the ones after, then decide if you've actually faced this. Or if you've just handled a "pushy" horse. There is a big huge difference. If you have, educate us all by putting the method you used out there for us to learn from. I'm not talking about just sitting there going ... "well this should work." But real true experience with a successful end.


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## PunksTank

BBBCrone said:


> I think delete already explained about the teachers, it's a page or so back I believe. At least I think she did.
> 
> I do have a question though ... for those who are so opposed to this method that was used, have ANY of you faced a horse like this? I'm hoping for honest answers here. I don't really believe this is a "common" horse. You aren't going to run into this situation every day. Re-read the original post and a couple of the ones after, then decide if you've actually faced this. Or if you've just handled a "pushy" horse. There is a big huge difference. If you have, educate us all by putting the method you used out there for us to learn from. I'm not talking about just sitting there going ... "well this should work." But real true experience with a successful end.



2, I've dealt with 2 with this type of attitude. The first is my Gypsy colt, who I still haven't backed because he's only 2 and a half. But he came to our rescue because his owners/backyard breeders couldn't handle him. He was 8 months old and full of spit and fire. He would rear and strike out right at your head. After being gelded he mellowed out a little bit - but at this point I had gotten my own unbroke horse. She was, IMO more challenging than this colt, so I worked with her and unfortunately the colt stopped his training at the point of being able to be lead to and from his paddock. After about a year his attitude, obviously, came back in full fire. Leaving his usual area resulted in violence, being lead at any time besides between his stall and paddock resulted in violence, even just leading him around his paddock once. 
I retrained him using all clicker training though, so that's not much use to the OP. He's now a pretty polite little boy! He won't be backed until at earliest, the end of the summer. But he's going very well now and just starting on line-driving now.

The other is an Arabian mare I've been working with, she's a _very_ good girl, except when she's not. For her it's not about being outwardly mean, she gets herself worked up and turns aggressive. I also used CT for her, I taught her her default state she be standing calmly with her head down. She was a regular rearer, whenever she was overwhelmed or confused she would rear because that is what worked for her in the past. Now she had another option - when she didn't know or understand what I wanted, put her head down. And she does. 

I personally love CT, never had an issue with it, it's worked for everything I've wanted to teach - because rather than focusing on _unteaching_ horses of things I don't want I focus on teaching horses skills I _do_ want.


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## Cherie

I do not know how many other people on this forum have actually 'successfully and effectively' re-trained terribly spoiled and aggressive horses. I re-trained around 20 of them before I got married in 1981. After I married, husband and I re-trained about that many more. Most were headed to the killers and I/we were their last chance. I did so well with them when I was training for the public before I got married, that some were sent to me from out of state because the word got around that I could 'get through' to to these horses. Bear in mind that several of these horses had nearly killed people -- we're talking about crippling and maiming attacks that make the stud in the movie "Buck" look like a 4-H horse. 

One of the early horses brought to me had been through 3 or 4 trainers and had attacked the last one, got him down, repeatedly struck him, bit him and fractured his femur in several places with bone protruding through the skin. He would have finished killing him if it weren't for a missing bottom board on his round pen (they were only 25 in diameter back in the 60s). The guy managed to drag himself out of the pen by crawling through the hole where the bottom board was missing. He lived but was in the hospital for weeks and was too crippled to ever get on a horse again.

This horse was owned by Hank Weiscamp's nephew and was scheduled to be to be put down. The Vet would not come out because he would not get that close to him. He told the guy that I had re-trained some pretty bad horses and gave him my phone number. Four or 5 months later, I showed him at the Paint Nationals in Denver in Halter and in Western Pleasure. 

You know what ALL of these horses had in common? They had ALL been spoiled by a previous handler or trainer -- just like this horse. Some, like the Paint, had been through 3 or 4 trainers and only got more persistent in their aggressiveness with each one. They just got meaner. I can only think of one or two that had been abused and they had been whipped. Then one day the handler showed up without a whip and they attacked. All of the others had just not been corrected effectively in the beginning, usually just been 'pecked' and 'nagged' at and became worse with every handling. They were all pretty dominant natured to begin with.

It did not take me long to figure out that laying these horses down was the ONLY way to stop them long enough to give them a new start and let them learn the right responses.

I just want one person to tell me just how they would keep from getting killed trying to work with a horse that is coming after them just like the stallions you see fighting each other -- with mouth wide open, eats pinned flat, eye blood red and pawing and striking with both front feet. [Yes, an attacking horse often has their eyes turn blood red -- don't ask me how, but they do.]

I have used a running W, but I do not like them. They're difficult to use, in my opinion. You have to pull at least 8 feet of rope through the hobbles and rings to fold up a horse's front feet. It is really difficult to do unless they are running away from you. The horses (and one mule) I used them on did not skin one hair off of their knees but it was sure a lot harder on me. I prefer 3 or 4 way hobbles, but you have to know what your doing to get them on a viscous horse. 

It might be of interest to the people that think you can 'pet a horse into just forgetting all of their bad habits and previous spoiling', that Tom and Bill Dorrance, Ray Hunt and Buck Brannaman have all used the method of laying a horse down on horses that would attack. John Rarey was one of the first ones documented. You might look him up and how he 'tamed' a viscous horse named Cruiser more than 150 years ago. This horse was kept in a stall with a iron halter on his head and never taken out unless he was led between two strong men with two lead-ropes. Two of the studs brought to me had only been led that way. Others could not be led at all.

You cannot teach anything the correct way to an already spoiled viscous horse until you change the 'attack mind-set' to a 'learning mind-set'. Until you change that mind-set, you only have a horse that is so dominant that you can't be 'nice' to them while you are running for your life trying to keep from being killed. Laying a horse down is the quietest, calmest and kindest way to show a horse that you are in charge of what he does and where he can go -- the ultimate way to control his movement. It is not teaching fear. It is dominating one without pain or a fear response.

Since someone else already messed up the first starting place in the training process, you must find another way to get that horse to a good starting place that is safe for both him and you. He cannot learn if he is not willing to learn. 

Like I said before -- "Every single viscous spoiled horse I've ever touched was ruined by someone else." Obviously, the person that spoiled the horse is not ever going to be able to straighten it out. Someone else has to come along or a bullet does. Thank goodness this horse has the OP who is willing to do what it takes to try to straighten out this one.


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## ligoleth

My instructor is fiddling with the idea of laying down Leah, who is completely herd sour and is turning very nasty very quickly. And to him I say: if it works... Do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77

"What I believe Equitate is getting at with laying a horse down is that the result is a blank minded horse who's completely succumbed to the fact that we are in charge and they have no actual control over their own lives. Which in some instances is good, it _does_ humble a horse, it does make them listen, it does reset their brain. But it also takes away so much more. Many people are happy with the results, but I believe there are also many people who wouldn't look twice at a horse who has given up."


I could not _disagree_ more with this comment.

I would hardly say my gray horse has "given up" or had his "spirit broken". 
I bought him knowing very well what his issues were. We had gave him plenty of chances to do it the right way. But he was very much stuck in a rut by running off to the gate and trying to jump out or sulling up in a corner and threaten to rear. The last straw was when tried to jump out of a friends roping arena and got his front legs hung up on the panels. My husband happened to be standing close by, he pushed his front feet up and back over the panel as I slid out of the saddle and flopped him over. Husband jumped the fence and we let him lay there for a while rubbing on him. Got him up, rode him for about five minutes. I rode him about two times afterwards. He would think about it rather than automatically running off. I turned him out, three months later husband used him to move some cows, he loves it. I hadn't worked with him since then up until the last week or so. No issues and we are moving on to bigger and better things. He is smart and needs to have his brain engaged, he loves being worked with and he will greet me at the gate when I go to catch him up. Hardly sounds like a horse that has given up and spirit broken. And that is just an example of a horse that was thrown not laid down, there is a difference.

I also have started colts by laying them down. I know that I have said this about a half dozen times on this forum before but I think it is worth repeating for this thread.
A few winters ago my husband and I started a pile of ranch colts all ranging from the age of 2 to 5/6 years old. They had never been touched by humans before, couldn't even get close to them. They ran wild on the ranch, needed a fast horse to even get them gathered up. Half we laid down, half we did not. The colts we laid down took to the training much easier and caught onto concepts faster than those that were not laid down. Not because their spirit was broken, but because they were less reactive and would actually think. 
*I want a horse that thinks not just reacts.*


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## equitate

Indeed Punks and Cherie. Well said.

For me such horses are indeed a wake up that only people knowledgeable in starting young horses (or under CLOSE control of those that have) should start them. Going back again, having to replace behaviors, is sad. And in the end, even it they are, it is rather like a beaten woman...they will always duck. Horses are the most forgiving of species. But few are lions in need of taming, but beings that must be treated as equine with equine behaviors, understand those in the first place, and the answers are the clearest.

Chick....So HOW did you lay them down? Bend the neck until they went down, or ???


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## equitate

xxxxxx


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## COWCHICK77

Short answer....a halter and a leg rope. 

With that said I am headed back outside to "torture" some horses


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## jillybean19

While I believe in using as little force necessary, I cannot claim to know how much force was necessary in this case since I do not have the horse in front of me. In this situation, I likely would have tried CT before some of the methods used, but I am not in this situation and it does sound to me like .Delete. does know a thing or two about handling horses and obviously is much more experienced than I. If done correctly, the methods used may (or may not) have been the most appropriate action.

However, I believe it is a travesty the way these horses are being trained and handled. When I call a horse a "baby" - which I believe this horse is a baby - I do not expect it to be "babied". Rather, I am referring to the psychological and physical stages the horse is going through, and a 2-year-old is far from being fully developed in either of those capacities. I realize that most performance horses are started, trained, showed, and oftentimes sold very young, but I do not believe that this has the horse's well-being at heart. Rather, it's about the $$ since every day the horse is kept is another day you have to feed and care for it. Thus, I will never buy a horse with this sort of foundation.

It is unfortunate that it seems many programs for trainers are perpetuating this sort of practice. I would hope that programs would encourage their students to engage in forward thinking and progression to better the horse world. However, as in so many other areas, it seems they will be sticking to the status quo and further risking the health and future of horses.

I personally would not hire anyone from one of these programs to train my horse. Rather, I would find someone that I know has the well-being of my horse at the top of their priorities. If I asked them to ride my horse every day as a long yearling, I would hope the trainer would have the self-respect and respect for my horse's health to tell me no and risk losing my business rather than ruin my horse despite my wishes. I would hope they would educate me about why this wasn't a good idea, and try to provide me with an alternative route that would better serve me and my horse in the long run. I could care less if they have some sort of degree - if they have a good track record with their own horses and/or others and demonstrate knowledge and caring for what my horse needs, I will hire them above anybody that looks good on paper, especially now that I have read this thread and realize what is likely entailed by that paper.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

Honestly and I'm sure I'll get crap about this but I have ridden lightly 2 year olds and they have never had any soundness issues ten years later and I know several horses that were started at two that that are sound and competing and doing daily ranch work in their late teens and twenties. I know that's not popular on this forum but I just want to say that it doesn't necessarily ruin them to ride them at two, that may not be the case for all horses but I just want to put that out there. I think delete is doing great working with such an aggressive and dangerous horse. He may be mentally and physically a young horse but he still is a large animal that could easily hurt someone. I expect my young horses to be just as well behaved as my adult horses, and for the most part they are and theres no reason in my book why they shouldn't even if they are "babies" they can still behave. A firm hand was needed here just for the safety of others and I'm glad delete is making progress. I noticed someone said something about clicker training and personally I'm not a fan of that because I don't treat my horse like a dog but this horse was not gentle and safe enough for such a method anyways.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jillybean19

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Honestly and I'm sure I'll get crap about this but I have ridden lightly 2 year olds and they have never had any soundness issues ten years later and I know several horses that were started at two that that are sound and competing and doing daily ranch work in their late teens and twenties.
> 
> I noticed someone said something about clicker training and personally I'm not a fan of that because I don't treat my horse like a dog but this horse was not gentle and safe enough for such a method anyways.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As for age, I still think that's a grey area and a lot depends on WHAT they're doing - however a fully trained and shown two-year-old is not one that's being ridden lightly (I realize this horse isn't being shown, but it is being rushed through its training), and it sounds like this horse was ridden well before it was two. Heck, I even got on my horse's back before he was two and walked a little, then did some light under-saddle riding (mostly walking and some trotting for about a half hour or maybe a little longer, working on basic cues), and will be finally working him as a 3-year-old this year, but I'm in no rush. These horses are being rushed like crazy, with no option to take a few steps backward if needed (she's said multiple times that if she doesn't ride the horse, it will be given to another trainer). That's not the kind of mentality that's going to help these horses.

As for clicker training, this horse was not too dangerous to use it. From your statements, it doesn't sound like you fully understand clicker training (and I would discourage anyone from ever trying it until they do). The horse does not need to be "gentle and safe" to achieve success with clicker training, and oftentimes the most problematic and dangerous horses are the ones that experience the most success with clicker training.

However, this would have required the OP to become knowledgable about clicker training and be able to take a few steps backward to establish a good foundation with the horse before trying to tackle the rearing issue, which it does not sound like she had the ability to do so. That's not necessarily the OP's fault per se, but I still stand by what I said about the mentality of a program like this.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

I like natural horsemanship methods but the CT is not for me I have to admit. I get what it's supposed to accomplish and its great if it works for your I'm not bashing you or anything. Honestly I'd like to watch someone successfully CT a horse like this just for my curiosity's sake.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BBBCrone

PunksTank said:


> 2, I've dealt with 2 with this type of attitude. The first is my Gypsy colt, who I still haven't backed because he's only 2 and a half. But he came to our rescue because his owners/backyard breeders couldn't handle him. He was 8 months old and full of spit and fire. He would rear and strike out right at your head. After being gelded he mellowed out a little bit - but at this point I had gotten my own unbroke horse. She was, IMO more challenging than this colt, so I worked with her and unfortunately the colt stopped his training at the point of being able to be lead to and from his paddock. After about a year his attitude, obviously, came back in full fire. Leaving his usual area resulted in violence, being lead at any time besides between his stall and paddock resulted in violence, even just leading him around his paddock once.
> I retrained him using all clicker training though, so that's not much use to the OP. He's now a pretty polite little boy! He won't be backed until at earliest, the end of the summer. But he's going very well now and just starting on line-driving now.
> 
> The other is an Arabian mare I've been working with, she's a _very_ good girl, except when she's not. For her it's not about being outwardly mean, she gets herself worked up and turns aggressive. I also used CT for her, I taught her her default state she be standing calmly with her head down. She was a regular rearer, whenever she was overwhelmed or confused she would rear because that is what worked for her in the past. Now she had another option - when she didn't know or understand what I wanted, put her head down. And she does.
> 
> I personally love CT, never had an issue with it, it's worked for everything I've wanted to teach - because rather than focusing on _unteaching_ horses of things I don't want I focus on teaching horses skills I _do_ want.


Punk - do you have any video's? I'd be interested to see the changes if you do.

Better yet, perhaps a new thread should be done so Delete's isn't taken off topic?


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## jillybean19

BBBCrone said:


> Punk - do you have any video's? I'd be interested to see the changes if you do.
> 
> Better yet, perhaps a new thread should be done so Delete's isn't taken off topic?


Check out this thread - your question would be an excellent addition to it 

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/clicker-training-challenge-accepted-153311/


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## BBBCrone

jillybean19 said:


> Check out this thread - your question would be an excellent addition to it
> 
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/clicker-training-challenge-accepted-153311/


Okay well, in all honesty I'm not a clicker training individual. I don't want to mess up your thread. I was sort of looking for an off-shoot of this thread for those who have actually worked with these kinds of horses and used something different than the method used here.

I don't find anything wrong with the method Cherie described and Delete chose. To me it is not abusive nor is it demeaning and has been used for many years by very good trainers. These folks have a lot more horses under their belts than the majority like myself who can count on 2 hands the number of horses they've had in a lifetime. BUT if there is something out there that does work and is different it would be a good experience for all and an alternative should someone find themselves in the situation.


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## jillybean19

BBBCrone said:


> Okay well, in all honesty I'm not a clicker training individual. I don't want to mess up your thread. I was sort of looking for an off-shoot of this thread for those who have actually worked with these kinds of horses and used something different than the method used here.
> 
> I don't find anything wrong with the method Cherie described and Delete chose. To me it is not abusive nor is it demeaning and has been used for many years by very good trainers. These folks have a lot more horses under their belts than the majority like myself who can count on 2 hands the number of horses they've had in a lifetime. BUT if there is something out there that does work and is different it would be a good experience for all and an alternative should someone find themselves in the situation.


No problem - and it seems Punks answered your question here anyway  I started the other thread for just the reason you're describing, though - people wanted to see CT people actually do something with their horses


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## Cherie

Punk --

8/19/2012 -- You came to the 'Forum' asking how to deal with a 'herd bound horse'. Here is that thread.
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/spooky-horse-herd-bound-did-i-135137/

9/14/2012 -- You came to the Forum asking how to get your horse to lead through a gate, a gate she had been through many times. Here is that thread -- all 16 pages of it.
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/i-need-help-137668/

9/8/2012 -- You came on the Forum asking how to use 'clicker training', saying " Hi! So I'm fairly new to clicker training. I started a few weeks ago after having read and watched millions of videos about it." Here is the rest of that thread.
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/questions-clicker-training-137096/

So, which is it? Less than 6 months ago you could not handle a spooky horse, could not handle a herd bound horse, could not lead a horse where you wanted to go and were just learning about 'clicker training'. 
I tried to help you then and you dismissed every suggestion I had or that anyone who had actually SUCCESSFULLY trains horses to become 'well-trained finished horses' -- people that had actually trained, trail-ready, sale-ready and/or competition-ready horses.

Now you tell us that you have successfully re-trained viscous horses that had actually attacked and tried to 'savage' people? This, by the way, is something FAR beyond a horse that is ill mannered and tries to bite or kick someone or has learned to rear to get a handler to back off. Few people have even seen one of these horses and even fewer have actually made them safe for ordinary people to handle. I want to know just how you make a 'clicker' or 'target' work when you are the target and the horse is attacking you?



> What I believe Equitate is getting at with laying a horse down is that * the result is a blank minded horse who's completely succumbed to the fact that we are in charge and they have no actual control over their own lives. *Which in some instances is good, it _does_ humble a horse, it does make them listen, it does reset their brain. But it also takes away so much more. Many people are happy with the results, but I believe there are also many people who wouldn't look twice at a horse who has given up.


And just where do you get this idea from? I've laid down many horses and have yet to have one that I, or anyone around me, would describe as 'blank minded' (or any of the other buzz words like 'zombie' or 'broken spirit' or other BS words so popular amongst those that have never handled really rank horses). This is just not true. These horses get up with less fight and aggression, but they train and respond like other horses that have not been allowed to get aggressive. You just 'erase' the pay-off they got for aggression.

*I would like to compare it more to what is done when you "IMPRINT" a foal. *After all, you lay a foal down and rub it all over, 'make' it accept touching, foot handling, clippers, etc. A foal is small enough that you can 'over-power' and it 'show' it that you are not going to hurt it and that none of these things is going to hurt it either. You literally take away both its 'flight' and 'fight' instincts. *Please, tell me how this differs from laying down a big horse other than a person cannot physically lay the big horse down without the use of ropes or other tools or set him up to throw himself down?*


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## equitate

Not how I imprinted foals (and I did 30+ a year).....why is there such a siren call for dominance vs trusting behaviors? I want a horse to USE its curiosity to my advantage, to keep the energy of that said. No wonder some horses are so defensive. How many horses are partners any longer? IF we have to get as far as laying a horse down, why such agressive methods to get them down?


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## Cherie

The objective of Dr. Miller’s imprinting technique is fourfold:
1. *Bond* the foal to the human, establishing a relationship of security and trust. This is done by rubbing, stroking and handling the foal.
2. *Habituate *the foal to all sorts of stimuli it will experience later in life, like a saddle on its back or clippers buzzing around its ears. Each stimulus is repeated until the foal is desensitized. When the foal accepts the stimulus, it will relax completely. You’ve devoted time to imprinting your foal. Now, make sure you have the right equipment to help him keep learning. 
3. *Sensitize* the foal to other stimuli. This is a conditioned response like picking up its feet when asked, following the lead rope without resistance or moving his hindquarters laterally when cued on the side.
4. *Inspire submission*, getting the foal to accept the human as a benevolent leader. *“When the foal is handled before he ever gets up, the human is actually preventing the foal from rising,” Dr. Miller says. “Right there, the foal starts learning submission.”

*This is from an interview with Dr. Miller*,* who wrote the book on imprinting foals. The last sentence is a direct quote from Dr. Miller. Maybe you have invented a new way. I KNOW his way works and does exactly the same thing as laying down a grown horse.

In other articles written by Dr. Miller, he shows how to reach over a foal that is already standing, grasp its legs closest to the handler and lay the foal on its side. Obviously, not everyone is right there before a foal can get up.


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## ligoleth

Because horses don't JUST trust. They need a leader-- a DOMINANT leader. What about that is so foreign to you? Have you ever seen a heard of horses? Ever heard of such a thing as an ALPHA horse? or a BETA HORSE? 

My lease has a very dominant personality, which can be a handful and it landed me in a bit of trouble because I could not properly show I was his leader. And again, how is this any different than any other method that "trainers" use to train their horses? Its a 1k + pound animal. And **** it, if I need to lay a horse down to save MY skin, and others', then I might as well because I'd rather not live with the guilt that my lack of action killed someone. 

This message was brought to you by the letter "D".


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

Personally I have never laid a horse down only because it needs to be done correctly by skilled hands and it's not something which I have been taught. But I have seen personally the results of the laying down aggressive horses and when done correctly it can change a dominant horses mindset and really humbles them. An 1100 pound aggressive and spoiled horse is extremely dangerous and you have to approach them differently. I had to deal first hand with my spoiled mare who had not been ridden in several years. She was bucking, rearing, and charging at me when she didn't get her way and I did not lay her down because I don't think it was needed in that situation and like I said I don't know how but without Cherie and some of the other more experienced trainers I wouldn't have figured out how to communicate with her properly. Now that there is respect and clear communication, let me tell you this is a completely different horse; and when I haul her places people can't believe its the same mare. Yes I did the training but you got to give credit where its due and it was thanks from guidance I received here on this forum. Cherie researches training and has more horses under her belt then a good majority of us combined. So I think some of you guys should read again what she has posted it comes from direct experience not just from books or assumptions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rookie

I like Dr. Millers imprinting technique. I think when done correctly its a great step in creating good minded horses. I would not say its the same as laying a horse down. Imprinting is based on the idea that foals and horses are quick learners due to evolution. Imprinting says this horse is going to be around humans from day 1 and thus they should be handled from day 1 so its not a foreign concept. The idea is that weaning and training are not traumatic because the horse is use to it from a young age. Imprinting is writing on a blank slate. Laying a horse down is trying to erase the slate and re-write. 

I am not against laying a horse down per se. I am against joe shmoe laying a horse down. Laying a horse down is powerful and dangerous. You are getting into a horses head in a very primitive way. You can also be seriously injured. I think if you have to lay a horse down multiple times then you are not doing something right. Laying a horse down multiple times is damaging. I think it should only be done as a last resort and a lot of people use it as a short cut. Laying a horse down won't replace gaps in training my opinion. Laying a horse down when done with care can result in a standing ground upon which to address gaps in training. I would not lay a horse down because I don't have a horse I think needs it and I am not sure I would feel confident enough to do it without harming the horse.


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## rookie

I also wanted to add that I saw Dr. Miller speak a few years ago about imprint training. He was very clear and upset when people thought they could imprint train an adult horse. Imprint training can only be done within the first 2-4 hours after birth. What the OP did by laying a horse down is NOT imprint training its retraining. Its based off the imprinting idea that was made so famous by geese and ducks. I also think his book on the 10 features that make horses truly unique is great and worth a read for anyone interested in equine behavior.


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## BBBCrone

Thanks, Cherie!


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## VelvetsAB

equitate said:


> Imho if you are surrounded by professionals they should not even be allowing riding of a 2yo.


_Would it not be better for the student to learn how to start/train/ride a two year old, while they are under professional supervision? That way they can and do get instruction, so when they are out in the real world, they know what they are expecting from a client?_



equitate said:


> Start all over with the work from the beginning as if the horse had never been handled.


_I made a comment about this earlier in the thread, but will do so again._

_.DELETE. does NOT have the opportunity to start this horse over completely from the beginning. Due to the nature of the course, the horse needs to be ridden. Since she is having success in what she is doing, then it looks like all horses DO NOT have to be completely restarted in order to have progression in their training, but rather, a trainer who knows how to effectively get the horse going in the right decision._


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## FeatheredFeet

Many, many moons ago, I believe it was from one of our foals, that Dr. Miller first got the idea of imprinting. He was our vet at the time. 

We had a foal which was very sick upon birth. He was immediately brought in into the house to live. The foal could not stand without being helped and held. However, in his first days of life, this brave little fellow learned so much, I think we were all astounded. After three days of staying up around the clock and becoming ill myself, Dr. Miller brought two young ladies in veterinary training, to live in the house with us. This allowed me to get some sleep.

The little colt, had to lie on an orthopedic pad. I already had a bad back and my daughter was young. It was my little daughter who taught him that 'buckle', meant buckle his knees so he could lie down. He learned to shake his head at the chair, when we had to stand him up, so he could pee. We kept his pee can, behind the chair in the family room, where he lived. Not once, was he mistaken. He would shake his head, we would stand him up and hold him and he would pee in his can.

I had all kinds of antique tack, pictures and show win silver plates and cups, around the room. The foal would look around and fix his gaze on something and shake his head. We would give him something off the wall or shelves, which we thought he was looking at and he nudge it around with his nose and appear to be happy.

He learned within hours of coming into the house, that the bell on the microwave in the kitchen (which was two rooms away) meant his milk was coming. 

There is absolutely no telling what more our beloved colt could have learned, so early in life, if he had lived longer. He was truly amazing. He died at only ten days old. Dr. Miller and all of us, were devastated at his passing. I can only hope, that his little life and death, served to make so many others, know that these very young foals can be handled and can learn so very much, during the first days of their lives.

RIP "Light My Fire". Black, Peruvian Paso colt. We will never forget you.

Lizzie


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## .Delete.

*UPDATE*

Like I promised we loped! AND we got our leads everytime :wink: He willingly went forward off my legs. If he continues to progress the way he is, we will be working on giving his chin by next week. He only sucked back twice at the trot by the gate. I corrected him and we moved on. I feel like such a proud mamma!


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

Great job!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Army wife

yay!! I was really looking forward to the next update. Are you still laying him down before you ride?


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## .Delete.

No I haven't laid him down since the first update. I feel no need too, his "smirk" is gone.


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## Tessa7707

Nice! Good work


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## PunksTank

Cherie said:


> Punk --
> 
> 8/19/2012 -- You came to the 'Forum' asking how to deal with a 'herd bound horse'. Here is that thread.
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/spooky-horse-herd-bound-did-i-135137/
> 
> 9/14/2012 -- You came to the Forum asking how to get your horse to lead through a gate, a gate she had been through many times. Here is that thread -- all 16 pages of it.
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/i-need-help-137668/
> 
> 9/8/2012 -- You came on the Forum asking how to use 'clicker training', saying " Hi! So I'm fairly new to clicker training. I started a few weeks ago after having read and watched millions of videos about it." Here is the rest of that thread.
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/questions-clicker-training-137096/
> 
> So, which is it? Less than 6 months ago you could not handle a spooky horse, could not handle a herd bound horse, could not lead a horse where you wanted to go and were just learning about 'clicker training'.
> I tried to help you then and you dismissed every suggestion I had or that anyone who had actually SUCCESSFULLY trains horses to become 'well-trained finished horses' -- people that had actually trained, trail-ready, sale-ready and/or competition-ready horses.
> 
> Now you tell us that you have successfully re-trained viscous horses that had actually attacked and tried to 'savage' people? This, by the way, is something FAR beyond a horse that is ill mannered and tries to bite or kick someone or has learned to rear to get a handler to back off. Few people have even seen one of these horses and even fewer have actually made them safe for ordinary people to handle. I want to know just how you make a 'clicker' or 'target' work when you are the target and the horse is attacking you?
> 
> And just where do you get this idea from? I've laid down many horses and have yet to have one that I, or anyone around me, would describe as 'blank minded' (or any of the other buzz words like 'zombie' or 'broken spirit' or other BS words so popular amongst those that have never handled really rank horses). This is just not true. These horses get up with less fight and aggression, but they train and respond like other horses that have not been allowed to get aggressive. You just 'erase' the pay-off they got for aggression.
> 
> *I would like to compare it more to what is done when you "IMPRINT" a foal. *After all, you lay a foal down and rub it all over, 'make' it accept touching, foot handling, clippers, etc. A foal is small enough that you can 'over-power' and it 'show' it that you are not going to hurt it and that none of these things is going to hurt it either. You literally take away both its 'flight' and 'fight' instincts. *Please, tell me how this differs from laying down a big horse other than a person cannot physically lay the big horse down without the use of ropes or other tools or set him up to throw himself down?*



I am not interested in taking this thread way off track - but seeing as I've been targeted and attacked - I do feel the need to defend myself.

Let me explain the full story, the parts Cherie left out.
I've been volunteering at a horse rescue for 9 years now learning the principles and practices of natural horsemanship and traditional training... Mostly traditional. I worked with many rescues during those 9 years, I learned a lot and thought I was ready to start my own horse. I bought a horse (stupidly) who was an 8 year old draft horse who hadn't been handled at all. Not for lack of effort - she was living with a trainer, but she would bolt and avoid having to do anything, if you can't hold onto them training gets awful hard - all she learned was that she's stronger than us.
I bought her a year and a half ago - I started her work in her paddock and found her surprisingly cooperative despite her reputation. She learned to yield to pressure all over, learned to put her head down on cue, learned to lead and back up and all else I could ask. When it came time to graduate to round-pen work, when I felt safe enough to lead her outside of a fenced area is when all hell broke loose. 
She stopped at the gate and wouldn't budge, after a great deal of fighting I got her through the gate. My thought was that she was afraid the gate was too narrow and once through she would be alright. I was wrong. She was full-blown panic and had no regard for me or my space. After just a few moments she had spun back around, through me and back up to her stall. After a few more attempts over the next month I realized I was in over my head. I called many trainers and asked for help - including someone who works at a draft rescue in hopes he'd encountered something similar. It was decided our basics weren't strong enough. So I practiced them all more extreme, really pushing her, she continued to do well most of the time. Until we approached the gate. She was explosive. So finally I resigned and found a trainer to help me, a cowboy, but one I knew and trusted. He put a chain over her nose, had me with a lead on the other side and used a whip to get her through the gate. We both marched her down to the round pen - both of us making sure she didn't trample the other. We successfully got her to the round pen and let her go. She promptly broke through the pen and ran all the way back to her stall. We tried many methods, having another horse with her, whipping her out the gate, using a bucket of grain to bribe her out - if we did get her out we had 1400 pounds of panic in our hands before she would explode back to her stall, but most of the time we didn't.
I called a few more trainers who didn't get her even that far. And so I gave up and decided she would be my pasture pet. 
A few months later I had to move - the cowboy trainer wrestled and herded her into the trailer and herded her out into her new indoor/outdoor stall. It was a dreadful day. It took me and my fiance 3 hours to get her into her new stall. There was a thunder storm and there was no waiting for her to ease her way in. I used the practices like getting a horse in a trailer, making her work when she wasn't near the stall, I lunged her butt off, I made her yield her everything a million times over, I used chains over her nose, whips on her butt. I tried my rope halter and every other tool I had in my tack room. I worked her for 3 hours before we finally got her in. We did it by having my fiance hold her lead rope (with a chain from the other side of her stall door (to protect him if she exploded in) holding her tightly pulling her in, and me behind her whipping her butt and the back door partially closed behind her. Her entire body was so tense her tail was tucked 9 inches deep, every muscle in her body was trembling. She and I were both terrified and exhausted. That was among the worst days of my life. 

After seeking help here on this forum I, like Delete, was offered a number of possible solutions, Cherie's suggestions were among them. I had tried all the violent and aggressive methods I could think of, outside of 2 choices - laying her down and Cherie's idea of whipping her out her gate and tying her to a tree for as many days as it took for her to give up. Among the other ideas was clicker training. Having been trained mostly with traditional horsemanship where the ideas of treats where looked down on, because they make pushy and spoiled horses, I ignored the clicker training suggestion.

But when I moved to my new home I had to get a pony to keep my mare company. The pony I took home was one of the rescues. We had got him and rehomed him right away, his new home kept him for 2 years, where he was truly spoiled by his trainers. They weren't allowed to discipline him, ever. He was also kept with several large horses who hurt him (a broken rib and damaged shoulder are two of the wounds our vet discovered on his return). While he was spoiled rotten, he was also expected to work, he chewed on his leaders when expected to do pony rides, I assume carrying a rider on a broken rib would make most ponies a little grouchy - but he hurt many a leader doing this. And the last straw was when he was being line-driven. A trainer (professional) was line-driving him while teaching a lesson on one of the larger horses, riding around him. Finally my pony revolted and attacked his trainer. They popped him on the trailer and dropped him back off at our rescue that hour. So we could no longer rehome him as now he's a liability. So I took him home as my mare's companion. I figured he'd also be a pasture pet. 
Seeing as my pony couldn't possibly be any worse than he was then I ventured into clicker work. I started by teaching him the only way to get the treats were to stand calmly and turn his head away. He picked this up in less than 5 minutes. He learned to touch targets, which taught him to lead more politely. He learned to back up and pick up his feet without laying down or rearing up. He learned to kick footballs and is working on doing obstacle courses. He is more polite than I've ever seen him. He backs up and waits patiently for his meals and leads politely (on and off lead).

Seeing my pony's massive turn around in training I decided to try it with my mare. In two weeks of learning about clicker training and learning to follow a target - I had my mare walking _calmly_ out of her paddock, she targetted my dumpster with a tarp on it, she targetted my car and the tree that had squirrels in it. She lead, politely, not panicked, all the way around my property. She now leads politely all around, she'll go in any paddock and can work out in the ring out back and go for walks in the hay field. I've backed her and have just started teaching her the basics of riding. In all honesty I was having so much fun teaching her silly tricks I forgot I could ride her  But she's coming along well and fast. She never had any trouble, no buck or nervousness at all with being backed. 


While learning to clicker train I showed my skeptical trainer at the rescue - after teaching one pony the basics of being polite and targeting she was sold. I taught a few of the volunteers the basics and they each practiced on their favorite ponies.
One 13 year old girl took a completely wild pony and has got her doing obstacles with 'scary' jumps. 

I've sense worked with a number of our more extreme rescues. This is where I get my experience working with more 'dangerous' horses. Particularly the spooky Arabian. The first skill I taught her was to put her head down, now when she's nervous her default is to put her nose to the ground. This is also where I worked with our stud colt who was very aggressive. 

I'd also like to add it wasn't just CT that helped all these horses but a combination of everything. Thanks to some wonderful HF members I learned my mare's diet was very hot, a change of diet helped her calm down immensely. The stud colt got gelded which also helped a great deal.



As for my ideas about laying a horse down - first of all I stated it's some people's opinion, not necessarily my own. IMO I think there some cases it can be useful - I have worked with some very tough horses, not savagely violent, but a few tough horses who turn to fight before flight. I've always found the path of least resistance to restart them with things they are capable of and building them up slowly. But I imagine if you're in a huge rush laying them down would work as well. As for lack of 'spirit' I've seen more than a few 'dead head' horses in my life trained these ways. Horses who, as soon as a person clips the lead rope on or gets in the saddle they forget how to do anything. They can't even think a thought of their own, they need their person to think everything for them. Some people may like this type of horse, complete control. I prefer my horses to think a little on their own, so long as they look to me before they make the final decision.
Not all horses trained in this way come out like this, but too many that I know did.

I have to agree completely with everything JillyBean said about the actual topic at hand.

Cherie, I didn't take your advice and I'm not sorry, I was given several options as to what to do to help my horses, I picked one - just like Delete did. Delete picked your way, I picked some one else's. Not everyone has to agree with you. My mare has turned out better than I ever dreamed and I have CT and the people on HF who taught me to thank for it all.


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## PunksTank

BBBCrone said:


> Punk - do you have any video's? I'd be interested to see the changes if you do.
> 
> Better yet, perhaps a new thread should be done so Delete's isn't taken off topic?


I wish I had before videos, I didn't think of it. But I could get some videos of how they are doing.
The thread JillyBean linked to answers all your questions, you have to go a page or two in - JillyBean does a fantastic job explaining the psychology behind CT and why it works. While some other professional CT trainers posted up some fantastic ways to use it to help different situations


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## Cherie

Please use direct 'copy and quote' to show where I said ANY of this ---


> I had tried all the violent and aggressive methods I could think of, outside of 2 choices - laying her down and Cherie's idea of whipping her out her gate and tying her to a tree for as many days as it took for her to give up.


I don't mind someone not taking my suggestions. People do that all of the time. As a matter of fact, I have always said that there are many roads to Rome. There are probably as many ways to get something done as there are people to do it. 

But I really hate re-writing history and making up complete lies and passing them off for being what i said. Please show me where I ever said you should '*whip your horse out of a gate*'. I never said that to you or to anyone else. I spend most of my time defending 'why I don't use whips'. I not only did not ever tell you to whip your horse; No one else here can ever find a place where I advised anyone to whip their horse. I am usually telling them just the opposite and telling them how I, personally, do not like using a whip as a tool and seldom ever pick one up.

Then you can show me where I said you or anyone else said you should *'**lay your horse down*'. That is not what your horse has ever needed; I sure never suggested laying her down. Your horse has just needed a strong, competent leader as all of your problems are relatively small compared to most horse problems. 

I never said to *'tie** her to a tree for as many days as it took for her to give up. *If you have a herd-bound horse that you can't handle, tying it to a safe place (like a rope hanging down from a tree limb) is a must better and safer way for the horse to get over it than endless longeing in circles. The horse does NOT 'give up' or 'go dead' or become a 'dead-head' or any of the other BS terms you have invented in your own mind. They simply figure out that it is OK to be away from their herd or buddy and that they will be returned to their herd and it is all OK. It is safer for them and their handler that can't handle them. It is better for their minds and better for their legs and feet than the often over-done endless circles on a rope or in a round pen or what they can get into if they jerk away from their handler. And, it sure beats 'fighting' with a belligerent horse that an owner can't control.

A reactive horse is not learning. A relaxed horse is receptive to learning and is not just worn down like a longeing or round-penning horse does. That is all I have ever said to you. *So, please do not put words in my mouth and then treat them like "quotes".*

I did not 'attack' you. I simply asked which of your conflicting stories was correct. They were all your direct quotes with links and they told several very different stories.


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## BBBCrone

.Delete. said:


> *UPDATE*
> 
> Like I promised we loped! AND we got our leads everytime :wink: He willingly went forward off my legs. If he continues to progress the way he is, we will be working on giving his chin by next week. He only sucked back twice at the trot by the gate. I corrected him and we moved on. I feel like such a proud mamma!


Awesome!! *claps*. I was waiting for this to see how it went. I'm so glad for you. It must feel really good.



PunksTank said:


> I wish I had before videos, I didn't think of it. But I could get some videos of how they are doing.
> The thread JillyBean linked to answers all your questions, you have to go a page or two in - JillyBean does a fantastic job explaining the psychology behind CT and why it works. While some other professional CT trainers posted up some fantastic ways to use it to help different situations


No video's necessary. I got my answers!


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## Cherie

Congratulation Delete!! 

I think you have him headed the right way. Please be careful. If he does not have a setback and tries to get aggressive again, you should not have to lay him down any more. It looks like it has done what it should. 

Just don't push for too much too soon. I am not there, so you and your instructors are making all of the decisions. If it were my colt, I would probably do a lot of riding for a couple of weeks before I tried to gather him up much. I would work on guiding and leg yielding and loose-rein transitions. I would probably ride a lot more with one rein instead of using both at the same time very much. Using both reins at the same time can bring out a lot more resistance in a horse that is not ready for that yet.

If you start getting much resistance or resentment, I would sure go back to one-rein riding. 

You're doing great. Keep us posted.

By the way, what do your instructors think of your progress so far? After all, they know how spoiled and bad he was.


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## PunksTank

Cherie said:


> Please use direct 'copy and quote' to show where I said ANY of this ---
> I don't mind someone not taking my suggestions. People do that all of the time. As a matter of fact, I have always said that there are many roads to Rome. There are probably as many ways to get something done as there are people to do it.
> 
> But I really hate re-writing history and making up complete lies and passing them off for being what i said. Please show me where I ever said you should '*whip your horse out of a gate*'. I never said that to you or to anyone else. I spend most of my time defending 'why I don't use whips'. I not only did not ever tell you to whip your horse; No one else here can ever find a place where I advised anyone to whip their horse. I am usually telling them just the opposite and telling them how I, personally, do not like using a whip as a tool and seldom ever pick one up.
> 
> Then you can show me where I said you or anyone else said you should *'**lay your horse down*'. That is not what your horse has ever needed; I sure never suggested laying her down. Your horse has just needed a strong, competent leader as all of your problems are relatively small compared to most horse problems.
> 
> I never said to *'tie** her to a tree for as many days as it took for her to give up. *If you have a herd-bound horse that you can't handle, tying it to a safe place (like a rope hanging down from a tree limb) is a must better and safer way for the horse to get over it than endless longeing in circles. The horse does NOT 'give up' or 'go dead' or become a 'dead-head' or any of the other BS terms you have invented in your own mind. They simply figure out that it is OK to be away from their herd or buddy and that they will be returned to their herd and it is all OK. It is safer for them and their handler that can't handle them. It is better for their minds and better for their legs and feet than the often over-done endless circles on a rope or in a round pen or what they can get into if they jerk away from their handler. And, it sure beats 'fighting' with a belligerent horse that an owner can't control.
> 
> A reactive horse is not learning. A relaxed horse is receptive to learning and is not just worn down like a longeing or round-penning horse does. That is all I have ever said to you. *So, please do not put words in my mouth and then treat them like "quotes".*
> 
> I did not 'attack' you. I simply asked which of your conflicting stories was correct. They were all your direct quotes with links and they told several very different stories.


I'm not looking to turn this into an argument or take over this person's thread. So this will be my last post on this thread.

Here's what you asked for:


Cherie said:


> I think it is very necessary for a horse to accept being tied in a safe place and left alone for as long as it takes for the horse to accept being left alone. Tying her like this in a safe place would do a lot to get her over being herd-bound.
> 
> It would probably be very helpful to tie her out when she gets all stupid acting and very spooky.


If people want to read more about that they can look it up here. They'll see that the entire thread I was seriously considering the option. I heard Cherie's advice and talked to every horse person I knew and read all the books I could find on the topic and the general consensus was that it would be too dangerous. Trainers who had worked with my horse said if I tied her where she was afraid she was more likely to pull her own head off than to calm down. I was wrong about 'whipping' her out, the actual phrase was 'haze' her out the gate, with one person leading and someone else hazing her from the back. 



Cherie said:


> Can you get someone to haze her from behind until you get her to a good place?


Sorry it was someone else who mentioned the whip:


Foxhunter said:


> Come to that, should she start to reverse away from the gate then she would have that whip wrapped around her backside faster than she could think about taking another step in reverse.


Which I did use and did try back at our first home which only resulted us being outside the gate and me being trampled with a terrified horse who now thinks there's something terrifying in and out of her gate.

We have different opinions on the results of your style of training. When your suggestions were presented to me, the ideas were new and interesting - I did a great deal of research and decided, while it may work for many horses it wasn't the appropriate answer for mine.
For those of you who followed the thread to the end you'll see some thrilling pictures of my mare outside her paddock. 
I went looking for help, I found it, DesertHorseWoman helped me realign her diet, which helped a great deal with her bug allergy - which in turn helped her be able to stand being outside for longer. Others showed me about CT. At the end of the thread you'll see that with CT I had my mare walking calmly and confidently out the gate. Throughout the thread you'll see my attempts at using other methods and why they didn't work for my particular horse.
Maybe someone else could have gotten my horse through her issues faster, but I'm not looking for the fastest option I'm looking for the most effective. I chose the one I felt was right - it worked.
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/i-need-help-137668/page15/


ETA: and about the last thread, yes I was new to CT, everyone is new at some point. But I work 7 days a week with a variety of horses including a rescue, my own horses and several horses who's owners have had issues and wanted to try CT to fix. Over the past many months I've learned a great deal about CT - I am no expert by far, which is why I'm at least subscribed to every thread that involves it, as well as have a new collection of books and bookmarked websites. And so yes, I have more experience with more aggressive horses and using CT to help them since those threads I posted.


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## .Delete.

*UPDATE*

Moved into the big arena today (where most of our problems were). We loped both ways a few laps. Going to the left he is much more sticky, took alot more encouragement. He wasn't bad, just still has alot of suck back. I really encouraged straight lines and forward movement. We did alot of long trotting today and even worked on trotting over a pole. He only threw a fit once at the main gate, he flipped his head and squealed. I instantly got after him and he was fine after that. 

He is becoming overall more quiet. Standing in the stall, and becoming alot better with general interaction.


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## gypsygirl

wow sounds like hes making a ton of progress ! awesome !


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## COWCHICK77

Good job Delete!
Cherie asked and I want to know too, what do your instructors think?

Also like Cherie had clarified, which I totally agree with and want reiterate-
If a horse is laid down or thrown, like Delete did, it only takes once, or I might do it twice in a row, once on each side. That's it. No need to do it everyday. 
Perhaps that was where some of the confusion came from those not familiar with the method and that it may damage "baby" joints.


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## Foxtail Ranch

I am very happy for you .delete. Sounds like this youngster is on his way to a useful and happy horse life. Good job!

I believe each person and horse must find their way to the goal using the methods that work. I can see where laying a horse down can be the right answer for that horse, trainer and situation. I like how quickly it changed the horses behavior to be calmer and more submissive. I don't believe it makes a horse become a deadhead. That is what physical abuse does. I compare it to my work with kids. Sometimes, they will test and test because they have a past experience of relief of pressure with that behavior. They are intelligent beings and will not submit to another who is not stronger than they are. So they have to go all the way to the end and find out there is a "no, you are not the boss" scenario. Then, they will work for you. Not all are like that, just the ones who have had poor leadership or who are naturally strong willed. And some folks just aren't cut out for the kind of leadership they need. So I am always glad when someone can be that leader!

Keep on learning and growing .delete. !


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## oliviapilch

Sounds like this baby is a little arrogant lol. First thing I would do is have this horse vetted. Make sure he is sound not only physcally, but mentally as well! If he comes out perfectly sound, heres what I would do. First, you need to understand that you challenging him is just going to add fuel to the fire. A horse is your partner not your servant. You need to try to make him like his training, and enjoy working with you. Be fair with him. I would start of with a lot of ground work. Show him by using techniques on the ground that this is a partnership and you have no intentions of harming him. When he does something right, PRAISE him like crazy. Dont even hesitate to throw in a treat every now and then. Practicing tons of things on the ground, will make training him in the saddle so much easier trust me. If he starts to really act out on something, bring him back to something hes already mastered, and then keep going from there. Last but not least, really try to bond with him. If a horse isnt crazy about you, dont expect anything from him. Good luck!


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## .Delete.

COWCHICK77 said:


> Good job Delete!
> Cherie asked and I want to know too, what do your instructors think?
> 
> Also like Cherie had clarified, which I totally agree with and want reiterate-
> If a horse is laid down or thrown, like Delete did, it only takes once, or I might do it twice in a row, once on each side. That's it. No need to do it everyday.
> Perhaps that was where some of the confusion came from those not familiar with the method and that it may damage "baby" joints.


I'll PM both you and Cherie. Sorry I must have scanned over the question and it didn't register :lol:


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## AnalisaParalyzer

YAY!! congrats delete! sounds like you put some manners on that boy


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## busysmurf

I think Reset is now the PERFECT name for him:wink: It tells his story, and it fits. (i.e. Odie...need I say more?)


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## Boo Walker

It may just be my old age kicking in, but life is too short to ride a bad horse!


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## wetrain17

Such wonderful news delet. So gald its working out.


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## .Delete.

*UPDATE*

My dad came to visit me today  

I gave him yesterday off, I have been working him very hard lately and I don't want to "break my toy". I only lunged about 10 minutes today and worked on a little showmanship. I hopped on and we long trotted around a few times. I was really focusing on staying between the reins and straight lines. Suddenly, he starts giving his chin and driving into the bit when i re-direct. Im like :shock::shock::shock:. So to see what I have I ask him to give his chin in a straight line and he says "yes mam". This is the first time he has ever considered moving forward properly. Today is the first day he didn't show an ounce of resistance or suck back. I didn't ask him to give his chin that much because I didn't want to break the lightbulb that turned on in his head. 

Our lope off transitions were on a loose rein and were actually decent. We did atleast 5 or 6 lope transitions both ways. He only missed a lead twice. By the end we were trotting off up into the bit, instead of with our noses in the air.

Holy mother of progress.


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## COWCHICK77

Awesome!!!!


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## The Ultimate Alibi

I would start from the beginning again. Get him in the round pen and get him resonding really well to ground work...Then I would get back in the saddle and ask for alot of left and right turns using mainly leg cues or a slight tap tap tap on your turning rein. Thats what I was told to do with my Arabian and it works wonders. Horses respond best to light touch than they do to harshness. Go on line and order John Lyons books COMMUNICATING WITH CUES. I have the books and have been using them with my yearling Appaloosa and my 12yr old Arabian. They help alot with problems in training.
Best of luck!


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## boots

Good job, .Delete. That is one lucky horse.


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## COWCHICK77

^^^ I totally agree boots


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## .Delete.

boots said:


> Good job, .Delete. That is one lucky horse.


 That made me blush. Thank you and everyone else who has supported me and offered advice throughout this process. We still have a long road ahead, but I see the light at the end of the tunnel.


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## Cherie

Good work girl. 

Just make sure that the light at the end of the tunnel isn't a train coming!


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## smrobs

Delete, I've just sat down and read this entire thread.

Holy wow :shock:.

All I can say about all those naysayers who were jumping all over you is that I'd bet not a single one of them has ever dealt with a horse that did anything more aggressive than maybe trying to bite or kick occasionally. Because they've never dealt with a _truly_ dangerous, aggressive horse, they don't know _how_ to deal with one.

I, for one, am glad that you are getting this opportunity now. You'll likely learn more from this 1 colt than you would from 100 easy ones.

I applaud your courage to stick with him and I am so proud of the progress you've made :hug:. I have to agree with Boots, that is one _hell_ of a lucky horse to have ended up with you.


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## .Delete.

*UPDATE*

I made the decision to put spurs on him. Before some of you jump on me, hear me out. I know that this could have been a very very bad idea, I know the decision was rushed and I could have spent more time getting him moving forward willingly. I felt like he was mentally ready to be pushed like that. It was only baby nubs I had on nothing dramatic. I first got on I bent him around in a walking circle and I would go to my calf then to my spurs gently asking him to go forward. He never gave me any trouble with the spurs, not once. 

He rode like he has had spurs on before, he marched around much more consistently and his lope offs were much quicker. We struggled with the right lead alot, I know why he keeps missing it and we need to work on more guide to fix it. He drags his left shoulder hard, I will have him set up for the right lead then soon as he feels like he is about to pick it up he drops his shoulder and misses it. 

This will be my last update on this thread. I feel I have proved myself enough to the nay-sayers that said it couldn't be done. *If you would like to continue getting updates on his progress please PM me. *

This horse has taught me so much in the past 2 weeks. I feel extremely happy not just for my own personal accomplishment but for the horse. I truly feel as if I save this horse's life. He was headed down a path that would only end in a slaughter yard or euthanasia. Some might say that I broke his spirit. In all honesty that kind of "spirit" needs be broken for his sake and everyone else's. He now stands quiet in his stall which to me is a huge accomplishment. Before he would kick at the walls, bite at the tie, swish his tail, paw, etc. Him standing quiet tells me that I have gotten into his head, which was my goal. He is understanding that life is so much easier when you're not constantly fighting. 

There isn't one once of nasty-ness in his eyes. This is not to say that I will have problems down the road when I start asking more. Its a very good possibility! But when he does give me problems it will be much less dramatic and a whole lot safer. I see a big future for this horse. He now has potential to do something great and to live a long happy life. 

To all the people who have supported me, and offered me guidance throughout this process. Thank you. I really appreciate everything you guys have done and how willing you all were to go out of your way to help me. I couldn't have picked a better forum to post this on. You guys are the best. 

To all you nay-sayers out there who criticized me, my school, and the method I chose. Thank you for your advice and the time you have put into this thread. As you can see I did not get hurt and the horse has progressed. I mean this next statement in the nicest way possible. *I proved you wrong.*

Thanks again everyone.


----------



## smrobs

:clap:


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## .Delete.

I am reminiscing about my "training" days. Now that I am 100% out of horses reading this has brought me to tears. I miss this greatly. The chance to turn around a horse's life and give them a chance to become something.

Mods, I think there is alot of great advice and information in this thread. Perhaps this should be considered for becoming sticky? It's a great read and look into different methods of training. Food for thought.


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## tinyliny

100% out of horses?! tell me it isn't so.


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## Foxtail Ranch

tinyliny said:


> 100% out of horses?! tell me it isn't so.


I'm with tiny! What's the story, delete?


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## .Delete.

It's a very long story. Basically, I lost my mother in the summer of 12. This gave me a whole new outlook on things. I am paying for college myself and I realized I cannot pay off my loans on a trainers salary. Plus I was constantly around nasty people with even nastier horses. I needed a break.

I've only rode once since April and I am completely ok with it. I will get back into it one day but on my own terms. I will break babies and help people (who actually want help) with their problem horses. But thats years down the road. I am now work in the auto industry and I'm really good at it. I am full time in college getting a bachelors in Marketing. 

I will graduate with an associates in Western Training, Equine Business Management, and a Bachelors in Marketing. 

We did ALOT of trail towards the end. Going forward was one of his favorite things to do. He no longer pinned his ears, kicked out, swished his tail, etc. He was a completely different horse. I didn't even have to lunge him before riding at the end. Also a bragging point, he clips without a twitch :wink:. It was bitter sweet seeing him off. 

I appreciate everyone's input on this thread. Even the nay-sayers. Everyone is entitled to their own way of doing things. There is a plethora of information on this thread. I think it would do well to be sticky. So people who are dealing with similar situations know what they are getting in to. This is an extreme case of a baby who was so dangerous he would have ended up getting put down if something drastic wasn't done.

Anyways. I think it's time enough to take off the "internet" mask and show everyone the "dangerous" baby. This was taken right before we went into the sale pen, the last time I rode him. He was sold for a good chunk of change to a family who planned on doing local shows with him.


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## Cherie

I am sorry to hear that yo lost your mother so young. I can relate. I lost my mother when I was in my late teens and lost my Dad a few years later. I gave up on becoming a Veterinarian and just kept training full time.

You should be very proud of how you turned around that spoiled idiot you started out with. You turned him into a really nice pleasure horse. If almost anyone else had inherited him, he would have ended up being put down or sent to Canada. You OWN his success.

You have done more to prove what I have been saying 1000 times over. You can teach a green horse to do anything that he has the ability to do if you are smart enough and good enough to teach him to do it. You HAVE TO MAKE the really mean and aggressive spoiled ones WANT to learn and WANT to get along. You showed everyone that it was possible. 

You did a super good job with a really tough one to learn on. It shows me that you have a lot of natural talent and ability. The really good trainers have that 'gift'. It is no different than the gifted artists or musicians. It is a God given gift. At some time you will come back and use that gift. Most people can not turn their backs on that kind of gift forever. 

I wish you all of the best in whatever you do. 

Cherie


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## ridemcowgirl069

I rescued my horse about two years ago and what you describe brings back old memories lol. He was a very naughty boy when I first got him. With him I simply didn't let him get away with that crap. This is what we did. I took him to the biggest feild I could find in tennessee and tied up his reins so they would fall and I grabbed some mane. Now its important that you don't pull on the reins at all if he rears or you could end up with the horse on top of you. Next you just gonna kick the ever living out of him. Don't quit asking if he rears in fact kick him harder and he'll learn he can't get away from it. Adventually he's gonna take off so be prepared for it. When he does you let him run as fast as his legs want to go and you just hold the hell. Let him have fun with it too. After a while he'll start to anticipate it and will do it with lighter and lighter leg pressure. Now after he will do it with lighter leg pressure this is where you'll start using the reins and you seat, mostly your seat though, to control the speed. Slow his run down to canter. And just move on from there. You have to remember he is only 2 and was just broke so he doesn't know what the hell you're asking him to do. All he knows is she's kicking me and I don't like it so when you kick him he's trying to escape the pressure by rearing. Really that's all riding ever is when you break it down to the basics. So its your job to show him that moving forward is his only way of escaping it. Pretend he was never broke to ride and you have to break it down barney style for him until he gets it. Remember small steps and you'll do fine. He might not ever be a sweet loving horse but he'll have respect and he'll sure as hell move when you tell him to
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## .Delete.

Cherie said:


> I am sorry to hear that yo lost your mother so young. I can relate. I lost my mother when I was in my late teens and lost my Dad a few years later. I gave up on becoming a Veterinarian and just kept training full time.
> 
> You should be very proud of how you turned around that spoiled idiot you started out with. You turned him into a really nice pleasure horse. If almost anyone else had inherited him, he would have ended up being put down or sent to Canada. You OWN his success.
> 
> You have done more to prove what I have been saying 1000 times over. You can teach a green horse to do anything that he has the ability to do if you are smart enough and good enough to teach him to do it. You HAVE TO MAKE the really mean and aggressive spoiled ones WANT to learn and WANT to get along. You showed everyone that it was possible.
> 
> You did a super good job with a really tough one to learn on. It shows me that you have a lot of natural talent and ability. The really good trainers have that 'gift'. It is no different than the gifted artists or musicians. It is a God given gift. At some time you will come back and use that gift. Most people can not turn their backs on that kind of gift forever.
> 
> I wish you all of the best in whatever you do.
> 
> Cherie


Thank you so much Cherie. That means alot, especially coming from you.

One day I will get back into it. I really want to help people with problem horses. I feel babies and naughty horses is where I shine the most. 

I will still be on here giving advice when I can. This is now the only place I can get my horsey fix and lord knows I need it :lol:


----------



## .Delete.

ridemcowgirl069 said:


> I rescued my horse about two years ago and what you describe brings back old memories lol. He was a very naughty boy when I first got him. With him I simply didn't let him get away with that crap. This is what we did. I took him to the biggest feild I could find in tennessee and tied up his reins so they would fall and I grabbed some mane. Now its important that you don't pull on the reins at all if he rears or you could end up with the horse on top of you. Next you just gonna kick the ever living out of him. Don't quit asking if he rears in fact kick him harder and he'll learn he can't get away from it. Adventually he's gonna take off so be prepared for it. When he does you let him run as fast as his legs want to go and you just hold the hell. Let him have fun with it too. After a while he'll start to anticipate it and will do it with lighter and lighter leg pressure. Now after he will do it with lighter leg pressure this is where you'll start using the reins and you seat, mostly your seat though, to control the speed. Slow his run down to canter. And just move on from there. You have to remember he is only 2 and was just broke so he doesn't know what the hell you're asking him to do. All he knows is she's kicking me and I don't like it so when you kick him he's trying to escape the pressure by rearing. Really that's all riding ever is when you break it down to the basics. So its your job to show him that moving forward is his only way of escaping it. Pretend he was never broke to ride and you have to break it down barney style for him until he gets it. Remember small steps and you'll do fine. He might not ever be a sweet loving horse but he'll have respect and he'll sure as hell move when you tell him to
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a good example of why people should read the thread before posting


----------



## smrobs

Delete, I'm surprised that you could read that big ugly block of text. LOL

Anyway, I can't say any more than what Cherie already did. I'm so sorry you lost your Mom. :hug::hug::hug:

If you are ever around the TX panhandle and are in need of a horsey fix, swing on by. I may not have any problem horses, but I've got a couple of good ones that would be happy to take you for as long a ride as you wanted.


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## .Delete.

smrobs said:


> Delete, I'm surprised that you could read that big ugly block of text. LOL
> 
> Anyway, I can't say any more than what Cherie already did. I'm so sorry you lost your Mom. :hug::hug::hug:
> 
> If you are ever around the TX panhandle and are in need of a horsey fix, swing on by. I may not have any problem horses, but I've got a couple of good ones that would be happy to take you for as long a ride as you wanted.


Since 2008 this place has seen my ups and my downs. I have grown very fond of many of you. I feel at home here, like a family that I am apart of. I really appreciate your kindness Smrobs. I might have to drive down there just to take you up on your offer :lol:


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## crazeepony

Being that this horse is so young, I would start all over with a whole different approach or get someone that has a different approach. This horse has a trust/confusion issue. I am no professional, just a beginner but there is nothing to build on here. It doesn't respect you as a leader and it doesn't trust you. If the horse had "ton of groundwork" then why should it be behaving like this? Something is really really wrong.


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## EquineObsessed

Crazee pony, you might want to read the thread before you post... this horse has already been fixed and sold


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## crazeepony

Thanks. I am just learning how to navigate this forum! I am glad he had a good ending.


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## crazeepony

Truly, I wish there were more people like this that would take on a problem instead of passing it on. The auction yards are filled with problem horses for no fault of their own. More and more people just want a quick fix or a quickly trained horse to sell off. This was a LOOONGGG thread but very interesting read!


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## Cherie

As a public trainer, I fixed spoiled horses for years and years. 

Right now, good horses without a lot of baggage are cheap. They are getting worth more every day, but right now, it is still not worth the time, money and risk to retrain the terribly spoiled ones. Right now, the only people fixing any of the bad ones are either trying to make a point or have some specific reason to want a particular horse fixed.

I still get a lot of calls from people that want us to take their spoiled horses. We are no longer able to train and quit training for the public nearly 20 years ago. We trained only horses we owned for the many years after that and now cannot train at all. [ Husband is 72 , has had a stroke, a heart attack and quadruple open heart surgery and I have severe arthritis & point degeneration and can barely get around.] So, we occasionally help someone work with their own horse, but no longer do any of it ourselves.

This is what I now tell people that call me: I tell them that right now, with prices where they are, they are far better off selling their spoiled horse getting one without baggage. Then, if they were the one that spoiled the horse, they need someone to help them work with this horse so it does not become spoiled. If they bought a badly spoiled horse, we tell them that if the horse is badly spoiled or dangerous, they are probably going to be better off cutting their losses early, not putting good money after bad, and looking for a more appropriate horse. 

Back in the late 70s, good registered prospects were selling for $5000.00 or more. It was well worth fixing spoiled horses or at least giving it a good try. We did not see quite as many badly spoiled horses back then, but I got in plenty of them. Back then, mainly I think, because it was not that popular to 'do-it-yourself' like it is now, most spoiled horses were horse that reared, bucked, were barn sour, but not that many that attacked people. Horses were not so over-worked in round pens and on ground work. There were also not as many people to try to sugar-coat and 'train' a horse with love and kisses and not nearly enough respect. 

Fewer horsemen (and women) nowadays know how to fix a really bad one. Even fewer want to know. So, it is more economically feasible and less dangerous to just get rid of the horse and buy one that is not spoiled.


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## tinyliny

Sorry I did not get back here to read your reasons for leaving horses , temporarily. you got a lot on your plate, but like Cherie said, you must have a lot of self satisfaction in the outcome of that challenge. I would have handed the reins to anyone else and high tailed it.

Sorry for the loss of your mother. it is something we all must pass through. I know my turn is coming up soon. my parents are both pretty old.


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## crazeepony

Why do you think this is Cherie? The economy? or because there are fewer people with good animal handling skills in general?


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## 6gun Kid

crazeepony said:


> Why do you think this is Cherie? The economy? or because there are fewer people with good animal handling skills in general?


My 2 cents, honestly is that there are far too many well intentioned people with a set of dvd's that think they can train a horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie

I think a good part of it is that this is the do-it-yourself generation. With hundreds of cable TV channels, free videos and cheap DVDs, everyone can 'think' they can be anything from a carpenter to a horse trainer. 

Then you have trainers and clinicians that are mostly greedy marketing gurus that keep telling people that anyone can be a trainer. Fact is, that few can actually become real trainers and most of those will learn their skill working with a good trainer.

When I was starting out training, not only were there no videos or clinics, there were only a few books and the Western Horseman magazine. Now, you can find literally thousands of DVDs and videos that show you hundreds of different ways to do what we had to figure out or learn from another trainer 50 years ago. Problem is, most of the people trying to learn how to train horses are city raised, have little or no natural ability, no background and no live 'on the ground' help or feedback from anyone that knows more than they do. So, there are a lot more really messed up horses as a result.


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## crazeepony

Good point. I worked as a vet tec in my early 20s then came back 10 years later after taking a different career direction. I was shocked at how many MORE people there were coming in had no animal common sense. One lady took their female dog in because of a "growth" which was actually a part of the normal female dog anatomy?? Dog and cats are one thing but horses are another, so I can see how some people can profess to be a trainer but not have a clue. Reading any kind of animal and having good timing to be able to "train" is something that can not be bought on Amazon!


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## jmike

Cherie said:


> I think a good part of it is that this is the do-it-yourself generation. With hundreds of cable TV channels, free videos and cheap DVDs, everyone can 'think' they can be anything from a carpenter to a horse trainer.
> 
> Then you have trainers and clinicians that are mostly greedy marketing gurus that keep telling people that anyone can be a trainer. Fact is, that few can actually become real trainers and most of those will learn their skill working with a good trainer.
> 
> When I was starting out training, not only were there no videos or clinics, there were only a few books and the Western Horseman magazine. Now, you can find literally thousands of DVDs and videos that show you hundreds of different ways to do what we had to figure out or learn from another trainer 50 years ago. Problem is, most of the people trying to learn how to train horses are city raised, have little or no natural ability, no background and no live 'on the ground' help or feedback from anyone that knows more than they do. So, there are a lot more really messed up horses as a result.


there a lots of things lots of people can learn how to do through resources that were not commonly available 50 years ago 

ability doesn't really come from where you were raised or weren't raised -- while i agree that there are a lot of things that just cannot be taught through instruction manuals and video's -- there are a lot of things that are -- but even the best manuals and video's cannot teach a person common sense or attention to detail --- regardless of where they were born or spent their childhood


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