# Customer Caretaking



## AndalusianRobyn (Nov 27, 2017)

Sorry to hear that! 

If what you said happened happened, I don't see how you did anything wrong. If you gave the horse the option of moving forward and he didn't, you have to reinforce forward movement at a reasonable level of pressure. Same with rearing. 

For sure, have a think about your pressure level with the lead rope. But it sounds to me like you did the very normal, usual thing. 

Some people don't have any idea what actual training looks like- it doesn't help that most natural horsemanship/big name trainers usually only film their YouTube clips and DVDS with horses that know the drill and don't need reinforcement. Then people can get it in their head that that's what it's supposed to look like. But if you actually go to a clinic/watch them work a horse that doesn't know the material, it's a little less fluffy.

Of course you could explain to her that you give him the soft option- the ''good deal''- and then give him a firmer deal when he doesn't take it. But some people just don't really want to hear it. I doubt you crossed the line with a lead rope. They're usually pretty thick and soft. 

My experiences with teaching ground work lessons has been good. I explain all my core beliefs and my general plan up front, so they know what's coming and can ask some questions before we start. Could try that. Then they at least know what's coming. 

There are always people around who refuse to up the pressure level under any circumstances with their horses. That's their choice, but they don't seem to get very far by my observations. Horse has their number.


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## AndalusianRobyn (Nov 27, 2017)

For example- I love Buck Branneman's work. Watching the documentary on him, 'Buck'', things look pretty smooth- and they are! But watching his 7 clinics series, you see more of him reinforcing his aids with his horses. That stuff doesn't make it into the documentary. It would probably be better if some of it did. I don't mean he's in any way abusive- just same as you. If he asks the horse to walk, and the horse doesn't walk, then he gets a bit firmer and they go for a little run. Then comes back and asks for walk again. Often times that stuff gets cut, and it gives people unrealistic expectations at times.


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## xJumperx (Feb 19, 2012)

Thank you so much for your response! 

I think I definitely should have been more realistic up front. The girl and others at the barn asked a lot of why I did liberty work with my horses and what I saw it good for, but I never really discussed with her that it wasn't always a beautiful process. I will definitely remember to do that next time. 
I LOVE Buck and I'm so glad you mentioned the 7-part series. That series really opened my eyes to training. To the fact that horses CAN kill you, very easily, if they decide they want to. There's something sort of amazing about being able to bond and work with such a powerful animal, but that amazement does not come without serious respect. 
I wish I could contact the girl and try to explain to her, but immediately after the lesson, she blocked me. I had offered to send her references to other trainers but she obviously wasn't interested.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Oh golly gosh you were being absolutely abusive to the poor, poor horse. Don't you know you can train a horse to do anything by love alone? 

You should have whispered in his ear and blown up his nose! 

You are always gong to get people who do not understand that rules have to be laid down and adhered to. I just pity any children this girl might have!


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

All right, so it seems as though you don't know anything about horse training. Clearly, everyone knows that this is how you train horses at liberty:

https://youtu.be/RvFhRKTYNWE?t=14


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

Teenage girls who don't have a solid horse background are, in my opinion, the hardest to work with. At that age developmentally they are becoming more independent from their family and forming their own opinions based on a few 16 years of life experience. Plus at that age, it's very common for young girls to place importance on being liked.
So she doesn't want her horse to be mad at her, and it's important that her horse loves her. 

There is a disconnect when you add discipline because in her young mind discipline means punishment which equals anger. This goes against her need to have the horse like her. The maturity and level of experience just isn't there yet to allow her to see that discipline is necessary and it's not cruel or unfair, and most importantly her horse won't hate her for it.

Keep doing what you're doing but leave the kids for professional trainers, there's more child developmental psychology involved than actual horse skills. Hats off and a big apple pie to all the trainers who work with young girls!!


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I am not an expert, so feel free to discount everything I'm about to say. First of all, it sounds like (based on what you describe) your actions were appropriate, and the problem is that this girl felt like you were "hurting" her horse. I guess in the future, yes, you might explain beforehand what would be the consequences to the horse if it is not cooperative.

BUT the phrase "Little lazy tick" in your post really jumped out at me. It suggests that maybe you were subconsciously angry at this horse for not cooperating, and maybe you did act with more anger than you realize. My pony is pokey and, yes, I suppose you could call him "lazy" (although I prefer "working hard to preserve his lovely round pony shape") but I wouldn't ever call him "Little lazy tick," in my head, to others, or in a post I wrote about him. Actually I don't think I would ever refer to anyone's horse like that, even if I didn't like them. But that's just me. Again, take it or leave it.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

_I don't see you doing anything wrong..._
I see though a young teen who does not understand that when you ask, ask again then you must tell the horse to do a activity as they were asked...called respecting authority.
Someone missed that homework assignment and skipped to all nicey-nice and sweet-nothings gets you no place in a hurry with lasting results.
I think your first clue should of been the reaction of chuckling at your assessment of "quiet"...
Assessment was accurate but should of also included horse does what it wants to not what it is told to do...
Once said horse found out someone would get after his butt for not complying he was answering with appropriate body language to those requests made and asked of him by you...
Then his pushover owner stepped in because she does not and will not understand being respected, the authority figure and the horse knowing exactly how to do just enough so she thinks she is in control yet said animal has her under his thumb and snowed....
You can not work with a attitude such as this..hence the chuckling by those looking on...
Sad, it could of and should of taught the girl quite a bit in those few short minutes you worked with the horse...instead she closed her mind to a fresh approach.
She could of learned a lot and excelled teaching her horse new riding and handling techniques she herself learned from observation.
Her loss...

:runninghorse2:...


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## Hackamore (Mar 28, 2014)

With new clients and especially the less experienced ones I attempt to explain in great detail what I will be doing or what I may need to do to get a response from their horse. I do this for the clients like yours that do not understand horse training so they are not shocked in a situation where I may need to be assertive. As you have witnessed often new comers to horses have a false understanding of what it really takes to start the training process. You may also want to explain to your clients that the amount of pressure & assertiveness that you may need to use in the beginning stages of training is no were near the level of pressure a dominant mare might use to establish the pecking order within a herd.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I haven't read the responses, but I'll just say that true liberty training is done without force, even without contact, so perhaps the owner's expectations would be that you would provide a true liberty training experience. I don't have a problem with what you did, but it is not typical of liberty training methods. Not saying it doesn't work for you, but I would not call it liberty training.

I took a liberty training course and applied it to my very fearful and anxious mare with great results without ever putting a halter on her. I got her to move her feet, yield to pressure, follow me, stop, back up, go away from me and return without ever using physical force. It can be done. A dominant horse that is refusing to move can be moved without using physical force if you put in the time. But this won't be accomplished in one session. It will take weeks, even months. 

So again, your methods are not particularly violent, but they are not typical of the liberty training that I've been taught, and possibly the owner was expecting. It might be best to call your approach something other than liberty training (you don't use a halter and lead rope in liberty training). I think it was a matter of having different expectations.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

ACinATX said:


> I am not an expert, so feel free to discount everything I'm about to say. First of all, it sounds like (based on what you describe) your actions were appropriate, and the problem is that this girl felt like you were "hurting" her horse. I guess in the future, yes, you might explain beforehand what would be the consequences to the horse if it is not cooperative.
> 
> BUT the phrase "Little lazy tick" in your post really jumped out at me. It suggests that maybe you were subconsciously angry at this horse for not cooperating, and maybe you did act with more anger than you realize. My pony is pokey and, yes, I suppose you could call him "lazy" (although I prefer "working hard to preserve his lovely round pony shape") but I wouldn't ever call him "Little lazy tick," in my head, to others, or in a post I wrote about him. Actually I don't think I would ever refer to anyone's horse like that, even if I didn't like them. But that's just me. Again, take it or leave it.


Funny how people read words and interpret them differently. I thought little lazy tick was a kind and cute endearment. If the OP had said little lazy brat, I might have thought that was not nice. But I detected no anger, only curiosity and confusion, in the OP’s post, even though she was only paid 80% of the agreed upon price.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

updownrider said:


> Funny how people read words and interpret them differently. I thought little lazy tick was a kind and cute endearment. If the OP had said little lazy brat, I might have thought that was not nice. But I detected no anger, only curiosity and confusion, in the OP’s post, even though she was only paid 80% of the agreed upon price.


Agree with perception being different. My instructor used to say "Little Shiit" on a regular basis to me about my heart horse when he would do certain things, but she really thought he was a great horse and praised him highly to me and others. She said he moved like a mini-warmblood; not bad for a grade QH of uncertain beginnings...


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## SwissMiss (Aug 1, 2014)

updownrider said:


> Funny how people read words and interpret them differently. I thought little lazy tick was a kind and cute endearment. If the OP had said little lazy brat, I might have thought that was not nice. But I detected no anger, only curiosity and confusion, in the OP’s post, even though she was only paid 80% of the agreed upon price.


I felt the same re the lazy little tick... And lazy little brat? I sometimes call my mare that - and it is meant as an endearment :biggrin:


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I don't see that you did anything wrong. I'm in the 'cute endearment' club with Lazy Little Tick, thought it was kind of cute. I refer to my foals that are near weaning, when their dams are getting to the point of "Milk Bar is CLOSED" as ticks. When I see the mare getting tired of the foal nursing and shoving him away, I say, "Goldy told me to get that little tick off of her today.". So, no offense from me on that particular score. 

Probably you should have gotten inside her head a little more before you started lunging and correcting her horse. I think if you'd found some of HER complaints about his behavior, and discussed YOUR corrections to fix that behavior, you'd have realized that you 2 weren't speaking the same language and either would have come to an agreement or called it a day before you even started. 

I've taken several clinics with Pete Rodda and he is about the most non-forceful guy you could ask for, as long as the horse is going along and doing what's asked. He'll give the horse chance after chance to give him what he's asking, as long as it's clear the horse is trying to figure it out. I took my then yearling colt, Mort, to one of his clinics and wow! Mort can be a real PIA and get very unhappy and emotional when he doesn't get his way. I started out handling him, and he very quickly went past my level of expertise and I had Pete take over for me until we calmed the horse down. He blew Pete off and blew him off and Pete's corrections were firm, fair and consistent. Then Mort upped the ante on the whole thing, he went up on his hind legs, started flailing his front legs around (I won't call it striking, it wasn't that organized nor was it close enough to land on anybody) and squealing. Pete nipped in there and popped him with the whip, got after him pretty hard. And Mort got over himself and got with the program. It was only once and it was "as soft as he could be but as hard as he had to be" and it was effective. Once Mort was back to listening and not being a complete brat, I went back in and my lesson continued. None of this is liberty training.

When you have folks who are in the "My Pretty Pony" phase of horses, you can't communicate with them. They absolutely can't comprehend that you have to lay down rules and enforce them in order to get anything done. I don't see teenagers or little girls being any more guilty of this than idealistic, naive adults. Some folks just don't want to deal with the getting your hands dirty part of horse ownership.


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## AndalusionTales (Dec 25, 2018)

Have her watch Clinton Anderson videos. He has some freebies on YouTube. He explains in them why he makes horses like hers move their feet and about pressure. You were completely spot on


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I don't think you did anything wrong either. It sounds like the girl needs help with her horse, but doesn't want to accept any help... :lol:

Tapping him with the lead rope isn't bad either, I have to do that with my mare sometimes if she refuses to move. 
You were firm with him but fair. She should be open to this stuff, but unfortunately it sounds like she's not. :icon_rolleyes: He's gotten away with things and he will continue to if she doesn't get help. That's on her. Shrug it off and try not to let it bother you.


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## xJumperx (Feb 19, 2012)

Boo Walker said:


> Teenage girls who don't have a solid horse background are, in my opinion, the hardest to work with. At that age developmentally they are becoming more independent from their family and forming their own opinions based on a few 16 years of life experience. Plus at that age, it's very common for young girls to place importance on being liked.
> So she doesn't want her horse to be mad at her, and it's important that her horse loves her.
> Keep doing what you're doing but leave the kids for professional trainers, there's more child developmental psychology involved than actual horse skills. Hats off and a big apple pie to all the trainers who work with young girls!!


Thank you for this wise response! I have worked with a few girls ages 12 and under and 17 and up ... I forgot how difficult that span in the middle is! 



Hackamore said:


> With new clients and especially the less experienced ones I attempt to explain in great detail what I will be doing or what I may need to do to get a response from their horse. I do this for the clients like yours that do not understand horse training so they are not shocked in a situation where I may need to be assertive. As you have witnessed often new comers to horses have a false understanding of what it really takes to start the training process. You may also want to explain to your clients that the amount of pressure & assertiveness that you may need to use in the beginning stages of training is no were near the level of pressure a dominant mare might use to establish the pecking order within a herd.


This is where I knew I should have done better. I did not explain to her what I was going to do. They asked questions about why I do what I do, but not what I do, and I didn't bother to tell them. I think that turned out to be the hamartia of the lesson. I definitely will learn from that and explain everything at the most basic level possible.



Acadianartist said:


> I haven't read the responses, but I'll just say that true liberty training is done without force, even without contact, so perhaps the owner's expectations would be that you would provide a true liberty training experience. I don't have a problem with what you did, but it is not typical of liberty training methods. Not saying it doesn't work for you, but I would not call it liberty training.
> 
> I took a liberty training course and applied it to my very fearful and anxious mare with great results without ever putting a halter on her. I got her to move her feet, yield to pressure, follow me, stop, back up, go away from me and return without ever using physical force. It can be done. A dominant horse that is refusing to move can be moved without using physical force if you put in the time. But this won't be accomplished in one session. It will take weeks, even months.
> 
> So again, your methods are not particularly violent, but they are not typical of the liberty training that I've been taught, and possibly the owner was expecting. It might be best to call your approach something other than liberty training (you don't use a halter and lead rope in liberty training). I think it was a matter of having different expectations.


Thank you so much for this very educational response!! 
I definitely think that could have been the case. 
Ideally, I would have had the horse in a round pen, but that wasn't an option as we had about a foot of snow. The indoor arena was our only option and it had horses in it so I resorted to lunging. In hindsight, I should have rescheduled the lesson to accommodate round pen usage. 


And a big thank you to everyone else that responded too! I love love love having all of the input. It helps me to learn as much as I can from this situation. 
I definitely was to explain more and ask more questions in the future. 
Thank you all again!


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Can't speak as to what you could have done better or how Girl could have handled it better but...

Having seen the comments from armchair horse experts on youtube and FB videos, there's a whole slew of teenage girls out there who think all bits are unspeakably cruel, anyone expecting a horse to behave is mean and not allowing the horse to be it's noble, magnificent being, and that horses are to be loved and protected as though they are children or small puppies. And they will defend their opinion to the end. I see this in older women and some men as well, but teens are the WORST.

I wouldn't doubt if this young lady is of that mentality and had the misfortune of being given horse... THIS comes back to the many conversations about people with good intentions making monsters out of horses btw.


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

@AtokaGhosthorse, ;Exactly right! This is why my trainer ends up as the LAST RESORT for these types of horses. By the time they come to him, they are adults and have amped up their arsenal of aggressive offensive _and _defensive behaviors. 



It takes a very skilled trainer to deal with these types of spoiled "pets". My trainer is known as the trainers trainer and takes horses in that other trainers have given up on. Needless to say there are many opposing opinions on him, depending on where your point of view and level of training/handling is. His opinion is that the horse is always easier to train/retrain then the owner.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

I have no problem with what you did. The only suggestion I have is to let the owner take charge of the horse to demonstrate what the horse knows (or what it is willing to do) and the level of handling ability of the owner. I think that might give you a good idea of just what you are dealing with. At that point you can explain what needs to be done to accomplish that goal and the owner can either agree to the process or load up Precious Pookie and speed away in horror. That girl's horse is probably going to be a real project for someone down the road.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

For clarity, here is what liberty work looks like (this is the trainer I worked with, Karine Vandenborre). Again, I am NOT saying that the OP used violent or bad methods, I am saying that when someone is looking for liberty training, this is probably what they have in mind. It takes a very long time to get a horse to respond like this though. It isn't about "horse whispering", it's about putting in the time to create a strong connection. In my opinion, it was just a matter of the owner having different expectations of what the OP was going to do.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Acadianartist said:


> For clarity, here is what liberty work looks like (this is the trainer I worked with, Karine Vandenborre). Again, I am NOT saying that the OP used violent or bad methods, I am saying that when someone is looking for liberty training, this is probably what they have in mind. It takes a very long time to get a horse to respond like this though. It isn't about "horse whispering", it's about putting in the time to create a strong connection. In my opinion, it was just a matter of the owner having different expectations of what the OP was going to do.


But the crux is really whether OP and Karine use different methods to achieve these results. This isn't a video of _training methods_, this is a horse that has experienced some kind of training, and I doubt it looked like this every day.


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