# color possibilities



## freedomfoundfarm (Jul 25, 2012)

a palomino bred to a sorrel (sorrel has a sire and grand sire that is black) can this produce a bay?


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

No. A bay horse is black based and both palomino and sorrel are red based. Your possibilities are sorrel and palomino.
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## freedomfoundfarm (Jul 25, 2012)

Thats what I thought but I have a bay out of the sorrel and palomino which leaves me confused


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Do you have pictures of all three? A bay out of those two is genetically impossible.
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## freedomfoundfarm (Jul 25, 2012)

I have pic of dam and foal but not sire yet. He was the only one with her and all we can figure is the black sire and granhdsire on her side produced the bay


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Color doesn't skip generations. One of the horses is mis labeled as the wrong color, there is NO WAY that a palomino and a sorrel produced a bay. Could you post pics of the mare and foal?
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## freedomfoundfarm (Jul 25, 2012)

made their pic my profile pic
not sure how to post a pic


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Foal looks to actually be a very dark chestnut. If he IS bay, then the palomino is NOT the sire. As I said, it is genetically IMPOSSIBLE for a palomino and chestnut to make a bay. 

As a side note, is mamma a rescue? She looks quite thin.


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## freedomfoundfarm (Jul 25, 2012)

palomino is sire we are 100% sure and the foal has black mane and tail and ears and two black legs. We didnt think she took. She was fat and sassy but we had a bad case of pin worms just a month ago that dropped her weight drastically in a matter of days. She has been under vet care and was gaining nicely but all in her belly (turns out it was the little man) we confirmed pregnancy tuesday and here he is today. Vet says she should pick up weight much easier now that all nutients are not going to baby


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Once again, it is IMPOSSIBLE for a sorrel/chestnut and a palomino to have a bay. Some chestnuts have very dark manes/tails that can appear black. He looks dark chestnut, to me. Good that she's on vet care, I'd hate to see such a pretty mare go down hill 
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## freedomfoundfarm (Jul 25, 2012)

I thought it was impossible too but vet says one sneaks out now and then and vet said he was bay as well so IDK. Looks like every bay I ever seen and I got 3 in my field. This is my trail mare and she NEVER looks like this...EVER!! I cant wait till she is back up on weight. My head hurts just trying to wrap my brain around all this!!


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Vets know little to nothing of color genetics. A palomino would be ee aa Crcr, and a chestnut would be ee aa, no cream. They can carry agouti(the bay gene), however it doesn't affect the red pigment.. A bay horse would HAVE to be Ee Aa no cream at the very least. Could also be EE Aa, EE AA, or Ee AA.

Edit- Your mare, being chestnut, is one of the following: ee aa, ee Aa, or ee AA. The agouti(A), does not show up.
A palomino would be the same combos, except with Crcr as well. So as you see, there is NO possibility of bay._Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

A sorrel or chestnut can be eeAa meaning has agouti but not the black to show it- if thats the case shed have to be bred to a black stud and then a bay can be made.


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## freedomfoundfarm (Jul 25, 2012)

never seen a chestnut with black mane and tail, ears and legs so IDK anymore....but I know 2 things....his sire is palomino and his dam is sorrel.....from there Im lost now


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

freedomfoundfarm said:


> never seen a chestnut with black mane and tail, ears and legs so IDK anymore....but I know 2 things....his sire is palomino and his dam is sorrel.....from there Im lost now


Here you go, Sooty chestnut with black mane and tail.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Also to post pics I use photobucket image codes becuase I'm often on my phone . I'd really like to look at this colt.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

I know that youve got a 50/50 chance for a palomino or a sorrel when the two are bred- the body coat of that foal isnt 'brown' its red. I'm gonna say hes not a bay but a dark sorrel.. foals are always darker before they shed.. unless its a miracle, lol.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Question are the tips of the ears black?


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Also to post pics I use photobucket image codes becuase I'm often on my phone . I'd really like to look at this colt.


I hope the Op dont mind- but its in their profile album.. 

http://www.horseforum.com/members/35641/album/sky-mr-unexpected-6826/


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Yeah I found it last night
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

either he is indeed ee based.........

or some other stallion was out having some fun about 11 months ago. could have even been a ungelded yearling, 10 month old, 2 year old etc. it happens!

if the sire was palomino, dam is chestnut, bay is genetically impossible. absolutely no way, no how.

pull some tail hairs, send it in for base color testing. if it comes back that he isnt e/e, you have been absolutely 2000000 percent lied to regarding who the sire is.

regarding what the vet said about one 'popping up every once in awhile' well...I bred my chesnut mare to a grulla. and my vet said 'oh, you could get a palomino!' and was very adament about it. but no, you could not get palomino because neither sire, nor dam, carries any sort of cream gene.

and the reason why they 'pop up' is due to a mare being bred by another horse and the owners not knowing or too irresponsible to realize their ungelded yearling can indeed, use what hes got.
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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

If the tips of the top part of the ear are black then he is bay if not might be a dark chestnut.
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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

freedomfoundfarm said:


> Looks like every bay I ever seen and I got 3 in my field.


One of those could be daddy to produce a bay foal... If 11 months ago one was a boy and had something there, even if there was a fence in between the 2 horses. Sometimes vets miss something in the gelding procedure, a colt was thought to be gelded when he had undecended testices, breeding through a fence, horses jumping fences without the owners knowing, the list goes on and on with possibilities of how your surprise came to be. 

One thing is for certain, a true palomino cannot produce a bay foal with a sorrel mare. If you don't own the palomino, was she live covered or artificially inseminated? Did the stallion owner have other intact colts/studs? There could've been an accident you weren't told about. On rare occassions, there are semen mixups with AI as well.


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## freedomfoundfarm (Jul 25, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Question are the tips of the ears black?


 YUP tips are black and we know for sure the sire is who he is....dam and foal are my profile pic gotta get a pic of sire but he is a pretty palomino not real dark at all


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## freedomfoundfarm (Jul 25, 2012)

SunnyDraco said:


> One of those could be daddy to produce a bay foal... If 11 months ago one was a boy and had something there, even if there was a fence in between the 2 horses. Sometimes vets miss something in the gelding procedure, a colt was thought to be gelded when he had undecended testices, breeding through a fence, horses jumping fences without the owners knowing, the list goes on and on with possibilities of how your surprise came to be.
> 
> One thing is for certain, a true palomino cannot produce a bay foal with a sorrel mare. If you don't own the palomino, was she live covered or artificially inseminated? Did the stallion owner have other intact colts/studs? There could've been an accident you weren't told about. On rare occassions, there are semen mixups with AI as well.


NO all in my field are mares....none bred her...LOL and the stallion is 2 hrs away and she was bred to him....there was no other studs there and she was live cover. It all seems impossible but here he is....it happened....genetics did something here.....


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## freedomfoundfarm (Jul 25, 2012)

CLaPorte432 said:


> either he is indeed ee based.........
> 
> or some other stallion was out having some fun about 11 months ago. could have even been a ungelded yearling, 10 month old, 2 year old etc. it happens!
> 
> ...


 ok...first this was a highly reputable breeder who had no other studs around and she was live cover. He has offered to DNA to put my mind at ease as well. I guess my question was answered but not really from here...I found 3 more with sorrel/palomino (WELL BRED) not backyard horses. Thanks yall but I think Im leaving this board every time I come asking a question I am attacked and slammed and called a liar....seriously folks....yall are the most unfriendly untrusting bunch!!


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Not attacking you, just stating facts. It is scientifically, genetically impossible for a sorrel and a palomino to have a bay. No ifs, ands or buts about it. Pull some tail hairs and pay the $25 for a test if you want to prove us wrong.
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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

freedomfoundfarm said:


> ok...first this was a highly reputable breeder who had no other studs around and she was live cover. He has offered to DNA to put my mind at ease as well. I guess my question was answered but not really from here...I found 3 more with sorrel/palomino (WELL BRED) not backyard horses. Thanks yall but I think Im leaving this board every time I come asking a question I am attacked and slammed and called a liar....seriously folks....yall are the most unfriendly untrusting bunch!!


No one said you were a liar or slammed you... But if your foal has a black gene, the sire is not a palomino. You can get a red based foal out of two heterogyzous blacks, but it is genetically impossible to get a black based foal out of two red based horses. Another forum member had surprise foals last year because some stallion down the road jumped several fences to visit the mares. 

I would love to see the results of genetic testing to know the colt has the black gene and then parentage verification if he does. 

You asked if it was possible to get a bay from a sorrel and palomino... The answer is no, every horse color lab will give you the same answer as well. 

Color Calculator


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Exactly. ^^^ 

you came here asking for a "simple" answer to your question. You got your answer. Just because you don't like the answer you got, doesn't mean its not the truth.
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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

No one is attacking you but that colt is bay so the sire is not palomino that's all. Could we have pics of the sire by chance?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

As others have stated, palomino to sorrel/chestnut can only result in a red based foal (palomino or sorrel/chestnut). 

If you had a black based (which bay is) I would be demanding DNA testing. It is genetically impossible for a black based foal to be produced by two red based horses. 

I personally saw no attacking. I see people trying to explain to you that there is no way genetically for two red based horses to create a black based horse.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

OP found the pic from your profile in larger... The foal is for sure a bay so that means that the palomino is NOT the sire... And please, PLEASE feed the mare!

The profile pic and the pic I found 

profile - 









pic I found -


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## Samstead (Dec 13, 2011)

that mare needs to be FED FED FED not just hay, not just grass, not just hay and grass she needs grain or something (suggestions?)


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

This mare needs to be started on a proper feeding routine NOW. She needs to get some weight on her to properly supply that foal the nutrition it requires.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Supposedly she's under vet care and dropped weight due to pinworms.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

kassierae said:


> Supposedly she's under vet care and dropped weight due to pinworms.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Where did you find that?


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

Post #9.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Read back through this thread. I already asked about her weight. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

freedomfoundfarm said:


> palomino is sire we are 100% sure and the foal has black mane and tail and ears and two black legs. We didnt think she took. She was fat and sassy but we had a bad case of pin worms just a month ago that dropped her weight drastically in a matter of days. She has been under vet care and was gaining nicely but all in her belly (turns out it was the little man) we confirmed pregnancy tuesday and here he is today. *Vet says she should pick up weight much easier now that all nutients are not going to baby*


Per the bold. This is not true. The foal will continue to pull down the mares condition and it is going to be much, MUCH harder to put weight on her with a nursing foal...


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

All,

Here is a perfect oppurtunity to use knowledge to help a member to learn proper nutrition and care. It would be great to follow this horse as she gains weight and the baby grows.

When my QH mare was pregnant I kept her on I think it was the Omelene 300 feed, if i remember right, she stayed on that afterwards as well. When the foal began to eat, I kept him on Junior horse for quite some time. She needs nutrients and really good hay. I can't remember what hay I fed though.

Your horse really should get fed at least twice per day, preferably more. 

I wish you great luck.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

This same question is in the breeding thread and I asked this as well, but any of you colour experts think that perhaps the stud could have possibly been a bay with silver? I did a Google search and some of them look very similar to palominos, so could it be a case of mistaken colour identity?

P.S. OP, you've got a pretty mare. I'm sure she's just gorgeous once she has a little more weight on her.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

That would depend on the breeding of the sire. If it's an AQHA or APHA, there are very, _very_ few silvers within those two breeds.

OP what are the sire and dam's registered names? Would help as we could see what might actually be going on color-wise.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Lol, I was just throwing things out there because that foal definitely looks bay. I keep looking at it thinking that _maybe_ it could shed out to be a dark liver chestnut and the mane is actually a really dark brown or will be dark brown with black mixed in instead of just black, but that's probably not likely.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

There are 2 base colours Red and Black. From these 2 colours, every other colour has been made. Genetically it IS possible for a palomino and sorrel to produce a bay foal because of what I just stated.

I got told this by a lot of genetic knowitalls on HERE! 

A Red based horse and black based horse has produced something that, these days we call impossible, but genetically it CAN happen, as it has happened before. 

OP... I feel you. When I first came on this forum, I was ready to quite mulitiple times, because of being bashed and 'attacked' by everything I said. I got passed that, and I am still here. My advice to you... ignore the rude people... appreciate the people who give good advice.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

No breezy it is NOT possible for a palomino and a sorrel to produce a bay. Both are red based. Bay is black based. Black is dominate over red. To get a black based horse you MUST have a black based sire or dam.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Breezy2011 said:


> There are 2 base colours Red and Black. From these 2 colours, every other colour has been made. Genetically it IS possible for a palomino and sorrel to produce a bay foal because of what I just stated.


No, it's _not_ possible. Not even remotely. Because red based horses (chestnut and palomino both) do not _carry_ a black gene. Bay only shows on a horse that is black based. It is impossible for a horse to pass on a gene that they do not carry.

So, in regards to the OP's situation, either the sire/dam in question is not the color that we were told or the palomino is not the sire. It's as simple as that.

As they say, "No if's, and's, or but's about it".


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## JetdecksComet (Jun 11, 2013)

I think Breezy is saying it could be a new mutation.

Highly unlikely, but certainly not completely impossible.

Please understand when I say "highly unlikely" what I mean is the chances are millions-to-one.

If I were the OP, I would take the stallion owner up on the offer of a DNA test.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

JetdecksComet said:


> I think Breezy is saying it could be a new mutation.


Yes! This is what I am trying to say. If a mutation happened a long time ago to produce colours like palomino and bay and sorrel and any other colour... it can happen again.

It is unlikely, and extremely rare... but it is not impossible. They have, do and will continue to happen. So it is genetically possible, and in this case, if the Dam is actually a sorrel, and the stud is indeed a palomino... and the foal is a bay, I would say that is what happened.

Do you guys get what I am saying?


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Breezy2011 said:


> Yes! This is what I am trying to say. If a mutation happened a long time ago to produce colours like palomino and bay and sorrel and any other colour... it can happen again.
> 
> It is unlikely, and extremely rare... but it is not impossible. They have, do and will continue to happen. So it is genetically possible, and in this case, if the Dam is actually a sorrel, and the stud is indeed a palomino... and the foal is a bay, I would say that is what happened.
> 
> Do you guys get what I am saying?


If the dam is genetically sorrel and the sire is genetically palomino and the colt appears to be bay, he wouldn't actually be bay (E_ A_) but some brand new color with no name that is unique to that foal. That is what happens when a color gene mutates, it is a new gene and not categorized as an existing color. 

Just like the stallion Impressive, he had a unique gene mutation and it is what has been named HYPP... No other horse is the source for that disease, it is a mutation.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

It's possible for the same mutation to occur more than once in unrelated horses, it just makes it that much more unlikely. The odds are MUCH more strongly in favor of the palomino stud not being the sire of this foal, however. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.


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## Blue Smoke (Dec 22, 2012)

I had a similar situation happen with a friend, she insisted that her palomino colt out of a sorrel mare was sired by her black 2 year old stallion that got out of his pen and into the rest of the herd (there was also a yearling palomino colt that was with the black 2 year old.) I tried telling her that it was genetically impossible for the black horse to have sired a palomino with a sorrel, one of the parents HAD to be palomino, buckskin, or smoky black (or double dilute) in order for the colt to have been palomino, and since she HAD a palomino yearling stud colt that got out at the same exact time as the black, it's not hard to see which is the sire, the cream gene does not skip generations. She kept arguing with me about it because she thought he looked and acted more like the black, with similar face markings, who was older, and had a palomino back 2 or 3 generations (shrug) no amout of convincing or siting references to coat color genetics websites was going to change her mind, 

I had to finally walk away, no sense in arguing with someone who doesn't want to learn about color genetics. Sometimes it's just easier to let the ignorant continue to be ignorant...

Except in the case of emaciated horses, that poor mare needs MORE calories and will continue to need mass amounts of calories as long as she is nursing. Infact, will need MORE calories than she did when she was pregnant in order for her to gain the weight she so desperately needs and continue to have an adequate supply of milk for her adorable little colt.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

It is possible for a black to be smokey black and not know it. A single copy of cream hides really well on a black.


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