# Nevzorov



## Allison Finch

A very talented rider, But I find his theories a bit.......offbeat.


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## SorrelHorse

^ Agreed. I love watching his horses and him perform together, but I don't agree to every word that comes out of his mouth.


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## mildot

His rantings against equestrian sport make him a nutcase in my book.


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## Ray MacDonald

I agree! A whole lot of crazy! He is apparently against using artifical aids, bits and actually riding horses.....

You should see some of the crazy things people say when they comment on his YouTube videos.


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## 2SCHorses

Well, his first chapter is a bit snarky. I was trying to get a feel for his method and why this person gave me the book. I ride trails and am thinking about endurance, and I already use a LightRider bitless, so I was thinking she either thinks I'm abusive or a kindred spirit to him (which I am neither), but I guess I will just keep reading a bit more. It doesn't seem, so far, to be as much of a method as a diatribe, but I was wondering if there's some methodology in there that I could use to better relate to Bucky and Dixie (mostly Dixie because she respects us, but I don't get the sense she enjoys us, like Bucky who is so friendly and happy to be with us). Anyway, thanks for the replies!


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## mildot

Ray MacDonald said:


> He is apparently against using artifical aids, bits and actually riding horses.....


Yet if you look hard enough in youtube you might be able to find videos of him doing his "haute ecole" act with spurs and a bit. Unless he's taken the video down.


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## Speed Racer

I believe the flaming nutbag has since stopped riding his horses because it's 'cruel'.

2SCH, you're better off watching the documentary_ Buck_, than reading anything by Nevzorov.


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## Saranda

Oh,he's very controversial... I don't agree with his methods, neither I agree with his constant ranting, conflicts with other styles (for example, he prohibits his followers to do anything from the Parelli system), trying to make himself elite (only a small number are let to participate in his online "school", if they are voted to be worthy enough), and also his past - he used to be a part of OMON, a Russian special ops group who carried out the most cruel orders of the government back in times when the Soviet Union was to collapse. 

To my mind, a good horseman is good, no matter what, can be easily recognised and doesn't have to be nor flashy, nor participate in any conflicts with the rest of the equestrian world.


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## loosie

I too do not agree with the degree of his 'diatribes', but do agree with the basic gist. While I think he's quite fanatical about the subject, I don't think(of the bit I know of him) he's a nutcase and think there is a lot to be learned from him too - I don't like throwing the baby out with the bathwater & tend to think that about any horseman - can't recall seeing anyone I've agreed 100% with, but just taken the good points & shelved the rest.


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## Saranda

One good thing about him - at least in the part of the world where I live, he was one of the first to start talking about natural horsemanship. It was him, through whom people in Latvia and other Eastern - European countries got to know about Parelli, Anderson, Hund, Dorrance and others.


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## mildot

He demands adherence and obedience to the one and true only way of the Nevzorov Haute Ecole.

He's a narcissist and a nut job.


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## Saddlebag

I'd love to read his book. Our north american Indians rode their horses with no tack for a long time, turning their horses with knee pressure, weight shifts, etc. often at a dead run. The leather thong around the bottom jaw was used as a lead shank only. When I began playing with a horse at liberty (I say play because it's not work), it was an eye opener. The more I learned and did with my horses, the more I began to question what I'd been taught years before. Not to say it was wrong, just that there may be better ways in some aspects. Big difference when your horse wants to be with you rather than has to be with you. Many horses will approach hoping there is feed/treats yet will often leave if not forthcoming. A horse that wants to be with you will stay.


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## kitten_Val

I remember you can only subscribe to his website if you sign a policy that you agree with him on everything (I don't remember the exact words, but something like that). WOW was all I could say... Clearly I didn't subscribe, and I'm not interested to watch a person who's way is the only way. There are so many awesome trainers out there that it just doesn't worth it IMHO.


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## loosie

mildot said:


> He demands adherence and obedience to the one and true only way of the Nevzorov Haute Ecole.


Yeah agree he's narcissistic, but IME a lot of 'gurus' & instructors are like that, so if you discount everyone with that attitude, you're cutting yourself off from lots of good stuff too. I guess they're so passionate about their opinions that they can't see that other methods may be fine too. I think that Nevzorov is more about the attitude & mindset, not techniques & methods, that you can learn anywhere, any way.

Oh & kitten, just noticed your signature line & that's sort of how I feel about various different people & their specific opinions - it's not about waiting for the storm to pass or only visiting in 'weather' that suits you perfectly... put on a raincoat, so you can ignore the worst of it & enjoy it all!


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## mildot

loosie said:


> IME a lot of 'gurus' & instructors are like that,


None who are the "my way or the highway" have a wide following, at least in hunters, jumpers, and dressage.


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## mildot

loosie said:


> I think that Nevzorov is more about the attitude & mindset


Hey, whatever floats your boat. I want nothing to do with him or what he proposes.


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## loosie

mildot said:


> None who are the "my way or the highway" have a wide following, at least in hunters, jumpers, and dressage.


No, Parelli for eg doesn't have a wide following. In other walks, KC La Pierre & the likes doesn't either.


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## smrobs

I'm sure he probably does have some good basic ideas in there somewhere....if you are willing to take the time and you are able to sort through all the hypocrisy and ranty-ness.

For example, riding of any kind is strictly taboo for being "too hard on the horse's body", but asking a horse to do things like this over and over and over and over again isn't hard on him?.......:?
Lydia Nevzorova's Photography
Lydia Nevzorova's Photography

Lydia Nevzorova's Photography
Lydia Nevzorova's Photography


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## Chiilaa

Sod his beliefs... he can keep them. The only thing I will take from him is his arena. Stained glass windows! In a manege! Stained glass!


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## kitten_Val

loosie said:


> IME a lot of 'gurus' & instructors are like that


loosie, I guess you just haven't been lucky. Most I met were very open-minded, also a lot still take lessons from other trainers (like eventing trainers take lessons with dressage trainers, dressage trainers go to clinics and symposium with those world-known ones, etc.). Although I agree some are indeed "my way or highway" (and I very much dislike that).


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## kitten_Val

smrobs said:


> Lydia Nevzorova's Photography
> Lydia Nevzorova's Photography
> 
> Lydia Nevzorova's Photography
> Lydia Nevzorova's Photography


What is so cool about doing it in 1st place? I just don't get it.


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## mildot

loosie said:


> No, Parelli for eg doesn't have a wide following. In other walks, KC La Pierre & the likes doesn't either.


 Are you agreeing with me? I can't be sure.....


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## mildot

Chiilaa said:


> Sod his beliefs... he can keep them. The only thing I will take from him is his arena. Stained glass windows! In a manege! Stained glass!


Yep. Other than that, sod him. :lol:


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## mildot

Honestly, if I was going to baroque all the way, I'd go to Bent Branderup.


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## PoofyPony

You can find a video on youtube where his stallion is 'asked' to rear up. But in doing so when coming down, the stallion literally almost bites off his head.......

A couple months later he had announced he is not riding his horses anymore (not even for the fifteen minutes as he has preached about before), due to the pain and strain it puts on the horse's back.

I personally believe he stopped riding not because the horses were in 'pain'. But simply because they have become too dangerous for him to handle since he disagrees in any disipline action toward them for dangerous behavior.....


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## Allison Finch

I agree that he is very "offbeat". However, I believe there are gems of wisdom to be found in the most unusual places. There are some snippets to be learned from a person who can ride a horse this way;










Sometimes you just have to wade through a lot of rantings to find these gems.


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## Saranda

I've seen claims that the photos in which he rides in a classical dressage manner with a bridleless horse are actually manipulated and the bits and bridles have just been erased in a professional way. I've also seen some of the photos, but I can't seem to find them now as they are mostly posted in Russian sites and I can't write in Russian to make a good search.


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## bsms

Allison Finch said:


> I agree that he is very "offbeat". However, I believe there are gems of wisdom to be found in the most unusual places...


I'd rather find someone whose gems aren't hidden in so much poop...


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## mildot

Saranda said:


> I've seen claims that the photos in which he rides in a classical dressage manner with a bridleless horse are actually manipulated and the bits and bridles have just been erased in a professional way..


That wouldn't surprise me at all.


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## mildot

bsms said:


> I'd rather find someone whose gems aren't hidden in so much poop...


But you have to buy the One True Nevzorov Way Poop Shaker and Sifter to find them.


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## Saranda

Well, but he sure can teach a horse to rear!


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## kitten_Val

Saranda said:


> I've seen claims that the photos in which he rides in a classical dressage manner with a bridleless horse are actually manipulated and the bits and bridles have just been erased in a professional way. I've also seen some of the photos, but I can't seem to find them now as they are mostly posted in Russian sites and I can't write in Russian to make a good search.


Unless they are erased in videos as well: :wink:






However I came across the article from the former Nevzorov kool-aider that he doesn't have real books, videos, and doesn't take students in to teach. Which (if true of course as I have no idea) IS suspicious: means he has something to hide when he trains.


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## Saranda

Thanks for the video, kitten.  It is said in this commercial of his dvd series that people should not try anything that it shown in his videos without gaining knowledge exclusively form Nevzorov's school and on horses that have not been trained by his methods.


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## mildot

He's not all that

Middle Aged Woman - YouTube


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## smrobs

PoofyPony said:


> You can find a video on youtube where his stallion is 'asked' to rear up. But in doing so when coming down, the stallion literally almost bites off his head.....


I don't know about video, but.......:?


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## loosie

kitten_Val said:


> loosie, I guess you just haven't been lucky. Most I met were very open-minded,


No, your guess is not correct. Know of many openminded ones, but it seems many of the 'big guns', such as Parelli for eg(Mildot, sorry for the sarcasm, I was assuming you realised he & KC LaPierre do indeed have huge followings despite being rather 'narcissistic' as someone put it), want people to follow their complete program, in their manner **if they CHOOSE to become their student**. 



> I've seen claims that the photos in which he rides in a classical dressage manner with a bridleless horse are actually manipulated and the bits and bridles have just been erased


Yeah, people will 'claim' anything, particularly if they can't work out how to do it themselves. I think those 'claims' are just ridiculous. Wasn't so many years back there were similar 'claims' about Buck Brannaman, Parelli, for eg, because people didn't believe what they saw.

Anyway, as someone put it, 'whatever floats your boat'(I like that saying, BTW:lol. I find it inspiring to watch the man is all. If you don't, don't watch. If like me, you don't wish to 'adhere' to all his opinions, it's your choice not to become a student of his.


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## loosie

kitten_Val said:


> loosie, I guess you just haven't been lucky. Most I met were very open-minded,


No, your guess is not correct. Know of many openminded ones, but it seems many of the 'big guns', such as Parelli for eg(Mildot, sorry for the sarcasm, I was assuming you realised he & KC LaPierre do indeed have huge followings despite being rather 'narcissistic' as someone put it), want people to follow their complete program, in their manner **if they CHOOSE to become their student**. 



> I've seen claims that the photos in which he rides in a classical dressage manner with a bridleless horse are actually manipulated and the bits and bridles have just been erased


Yeah, people will 'claim' anything, particularly if they can't work out how to do it themselves. I think those 'claims' are just ridiculous. Wasn't so many years back there were similar 'claims' about Buck Brannaman, Parelli, for eg, because people didn't believe what they saw.

Anyway, as someone put it, 'whatever floats your boat'(I like that saying, BTW:lol. I find it inspiring to watch the man is all. If you don't, don't watch. If like me, you don't wish to 'adhere' to all his opinions, it's your choice not to become a student of his.


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## mildot

loosie said:


> but it seems many of the 'big guns', such as Parelli for eg(Mildot, sorry for the sarcasm, I was assuming you realised he & KC LaPierre do indeed have huge followings despite being rather 'narcissistic' as someone put it


This guys explains why very well


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## Ian McDonald

A. Nevzorov: the only horseman even more controversial than Rick Gore


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## sillyhorses

I'd never heard of him! Google = friend


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## PoofyPony

I found the video of one of his horses biting him.





 
It happens around 1:20 in it.

As I said before.... he had announced last year he is no longer riding his horses due to the 'strain' it puts on them and their back.... but I think its really because his horses have become too alpha over him ;-)


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## mildot

PoofPony, good find and I agree with your conclusions.


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## Chiilaa

PoofyPony that vid is really creepy lol.


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## Saranda

It's even kind of disturbing.


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## bsms

But he's a WARRIOR!










Looks like a doofus about to be bitten, to me. My mare may get scared at times, but she comes to me for protection - not to attack.


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## mystykat

Just...WHY? This guy is ridiculous.


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## kitten_Val

PoofyPony said:


> It happens around 1:20 in it.


Boy, I'm cruel! My horse would get an elbow in nose hard at the very least if one of them would try it. Unbelievable! Talk about trust and respect, huh!

On other note... I watched from 1:10 to 1:30. Don't you, guys, think he looks like professor Snape from Harry Potter?


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## 2SCHorses

Well, I have stopped reading the book. He could have something constructive for me, but I haven't found it amidst all the hate for those of us that enjoy riding. I will move on to someone else for building some affection and affinity by Dixie. She's respectful and well behaved, and well cared for, but she just doesn't enjoy us too much. I will read some Buck books instead.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj

Y'know, even moreso then I disdain people like Parelli charging thousands of dollars for some knowledge, I think I'm even MORE disgusted by someone who would keep knowledge wrapped up. If you truly hold information to make lives better for horses, you're a pretty cruel sadist SOB to keep it to yourself and let nobody else be privy for it.

Not that I believe for even an instant this egotistical maniac has any more knowledge then anyone else, but he sure must hate the rest of the world's horses if he believes keeping it to himself is beneficial.


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## Jessabel

He's trying to teach horses Latin and thinks riding is cruel. 

That tells me all I need to know about Nucking Futs Nevzorov.


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## christabelle

Lots of different people on the world. I think some of that stuff is pretty impressive. I don't think I will be buying his book though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## henia

I don't know much about his method. I also heard that he's against riding horses recently. for me it's to strange but when he rode horses I admired him. He's a great rider and it was impressive how determined in his method he was. I mean if he don't like when people use anything on horses heads he really rides without it and has amazing results. I also understand that he is so much against sport. There it's too much cruelty in equestrian sport.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ray MacDonald

It's not really sport that is dangerous... It is the riders and trainers (individual people). Just like human sports, horse sports are ment for the strongest/fastest to win.

Although I do agree that the very high levels of sports can be a bit rough, such as the highest levels of showJumping and Cross Country can be dangerous it is the rider/trainer/owner who has to understand and 'live with the regrets' if you will, about how things can/could/would/should/have happened.
Like and example the owner/rider/trainer has to have the knowledge to know what levels the horse should be tested at. You wouldn't put a 1 star eventer horse on a 3 star eventer course. You would know that the horse could (and probably would) get hurt and it wouldn't make a good enough time to even be considered a placing. 

You can only bring out the horses best talents, not force a particular sport on them that they are not good at, just to please the human.


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## Corporal

smrobs said:


> I'm sure he probably does have some good basic ideas in there somewhere....if you are willing to take the time and you are able to sort through all the hypocrisy and ranty-ness.
> 
> For example, riding of any kind is strictly taboo for being "too hard on the horse's body", but asking a horse to do things like this over and over and over and over again isn't hard on him?.......:?
> Lydia Nevzorova's Photography
> Lydia Nevzorova's Photography


If you JUST look at these 2 photos you'd think it was Orca training. lol
I think I'd rather watch Tommy Turvey.
http://www.tommieturvey.com/
http://www.productionhub.com/directory/view.aspx?item=209312


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## Mylady

While I agree with his ideology on not using bit or any form of pain or discomfort inflicting tack I do not agree with his way of going about the whole thing. 

First of all he is a showman and makes a lot of money - that is bloody obvious to anyone

Second instead of developing his system (which is derived from french Haute Ecole system) he just made it into a ridiculous religious cult with strict rules and regulations where people are not allowed to share or help others

Thirdly he dishes dirt on every single system and somehow presents himself as a superior Horseman

Fourthly he is a Hypocrite - in the past he was a stuntman for movies - he used very cruel ways of training horses- sharp spurs, whips and harsh bits. When he became "a Haute Ecole trainer" he rode horses all the time and made them do tricks and movements that are completely unnatural (with him on horses back). Now he says that that all that is wrong - contradicting everything he did. As I said - total hypocrite! 

And finally - I just don't like him! His face, his image and his way of talking - and his horses to me on all the pictures look very tense- eyes white open, veins all swelled up - they look uneasy and scared! 

I would never follow his system - to me he is not right!


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## Saranda

Some of you might be interested in this site - 

Academia Artivm Didacticvm Eqviorvm in Liberti

It is a "branch" that glided away from Nevzorovism to prevent hiding information and to promote natural horsekeeping, in contrast of Nevzorovs style of locking the horses away from each other and letting to interact with humans only during training, so that they are more "interested" in it. I've been very into exploring this kind of thinking lately and it has given me much to think about my own choices regarding horses.


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## Mylady

Saranda said:


> Some of you might be interested in this site -
> 
> Academia Artivm Didacticvm Eqviorvm in Liberti
> 
> It is a "branch" that glided away from Nevzorovism to prevent hiding information and to promote natural horsekeeping, in contrast of Nevzorovs style of locking the horses away from each other and letting to interact with humans only during training, so that they are more "interested" in it. I've been very into exploring this kind of thinking lately and it has given me much to think about my own choices regarding horses.


Oh thank you  will take a look at it for sure!:lol:


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## Saranda

You're welcome! I just love that all of their articles and videos are free (and really thought-provoking!), and everyone can join their forum freely, if they agree with the Academias' principles and don't start any fights there.  As for myself, I've been long since convinced, that being 24/7 out in the pastures (with a shelter provided, of course) and being fed according to their natural needs is the best we can give to our horses - and it's so very interesting to see how natural horsekeeping can be applied to training too, making horsemanship more a meditation, than a sport. 

It doesn't suit everybodys' needs, of course, but it is an inspiration.


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## Mylady

Saranda said:


> You're welcome! I just love that all of their articles and videos are free (and really thought-provoking!), and everyone can join their forum freely, if they agree with the Academias' principles and don't start any fights there.  As for myself, I've been long since convinced, that being 24/7 out in the pastures (with a shelter provided, of course) and being fed according to their natural needs is the best we can give to our horses - and it's so very interesting to see how natural horsekeeping can be applied to training too, making horsemanship more a meditation, than a sport.
> 
> It doesn't suit everybodys' needs, of course, but it is an inspiration.


Totally agree with you!


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## Oneofthefew

I think he does amazing things with horses.


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## kayhmk

Saranda said:


> Some of you might be interested in this site -
> 
> Academia Artivm Didacticvm Eqviorvm in Liberti


Have to check it out! Sounds interesting, thanks for the link.

But what about this one, any views/experiences? I'm slightly intrigued (especially the forum & videos, which are free also, seem good on a first glance) but have yet to check it out properly. Thought about buying the book, though. Looks so good: http://www.dressuurinvrijheid.nl/afb/vdboekpolka.jpg 

Natural Dressage: classical dressage at liberty


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## TheAQHAGirl

I too think he does amazing things with his horses. However there is some black magic under that hat of his if he isn't bringing student in and not teaching them his ways, etc. plus all of his hores biting him, etc. tells me that there is something going on.....

Also, I'm kinda shocked that nobody said that Nevzirov (however you say that name) keeps his horses in individual isolation, so I have been told..


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## loosie

Mylady said:


> First of all he is a showman and makes a lot of money


I don't personally have a problem with that at all, if it's not all a lie. If someone's good at something & others want to throw money at him, good for him I say.:wink: It's when ideals go out the window for the sake of the money that I have a problem with - that's hypocritical... which I think has happened with one or few of the 'natural horsemanship' gurus.



> Fourthly he is a Hypocrite - in the past he was a stuntman.... Now he says that that all that is wrong - contradicting everything he did.


Hypocrisy is believing something but doing the opposite anyway. It is not evolving different beliefs & changing your behaviour accordingly. He is obviously a total fanatic & perhaps just a teensy bit irrational, may be other appropriate...naming words for him but I don't think what you tell about him is hypocritical in the least, so long as he's not still performing the behaviour he now professes he doesn't believe in - we all live & learn & evolve. Surely there are a lot of things everyone of us now believe that are different to when we were younger?? I used to ride trackwork at the local racecourse for eg. It's not hypocritical or contradictory that it would now be against my ethics to work the backside at trackside, so to speak. 

But then...
Saranda, I too will check out that link thanks - that's one thing I didn't know about Nevzorov that I DO find absolutely hipocritical, that if he's truly in it for the horse he wouldn't be keeping them cooped up & separated!:evil:


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## loosie

Forgot to say thanks & will check out your links Kayhmk too. But is there an English version of that Polka/Spanish walk one, or could you give a basic explanation of how they go about teaching this?


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## Mylady

loosie said:


> I don't personally have a problem with that at all, if it's not all a lie. If someone's good at something & others want to throw money at him, good for him I say.:wink: It's when ideals go out the window for the sake of the money that I have a problem with - that's hypocritical... which I think has happened with one or few of the 'natural horsemanship' gurus.
> 
> 
> 
> Hypocrisy is believing something but doing the opposite anyway. It is not evolving different beliefs & changing your behaviour accordingly. He is obviously a total fanatic & perhaps just a teensy bit irrational, may be other appropriate..


 With all do respect I really don't need a lesson in Vocabulary. I fluently speak 3 languages which is probably more than what you can:wink: So I would appreciate it if you don't talk to me like I am not cultured:lol:

Nevzorov is a hypocrite because in his ideology he says that horses should be exploited for human entertainment however he does exactly that to make money, fame and build his little cult of people who follow him religiously. 

Most world famous traditional and NH trainers also make money because this is their career that is open and clear to anyone who is interested and wants to learn and not some crazy ideology kept behind closed doors where horses are kept in total isolation, trained in secret and God forbid something to get out to the world. Doesn't this really make you wonder what is going on there? What kind of training these horses are subjected to? I don't trust someone who hides his training from the world - to me this means that there is something to hide - something not good!


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## Saddlebag

How I work with a horse has evolved and more and more it is about connecting with the spirit of the horse. It's almost like a fix and I have to be with the horse and it causes me to live in the moment.This may be what Mr. N has gone thro. He is likely working with stallions. I'm wondering about the claim of isolation and to how somone interprets that. Individual box stalls, not being turned out together (can't do that with stallions). There was no validation of the word "isolation".Mr. N may chose not to teach because he may not have the skills to do so. When my son tried to teach me about using a computer, he was all over the map in his enthusiam and racing ahead. He knew his stuff but couldn't teach it. With horses, how does one explain a feel or how to get that feel. You can't, it's something you just have to search for and you'll know when you have it.


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## Speed Racer

I personally think Nevzorov is looney tunes, but unless you've been privy to what he does, stating unequivocally that you KNOW he does this or that holds no validity.


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## Oneofthefew

I will have to research him more closely.Some of the things people are claiming he does is not good at all.I was basing my opinion after watching him perform .


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## Mylady

He works with mares too. 
I used to be friends with someone who initially introduced me to NH training but later she became Nevzorov's follower and because I didn't want to "convert" she broke off our friendship plus later when I tried to reason with her and ask to share training tips she told me that she works with "horses soul" and will not say anything else. She distant herself from everyone. Her horse does impressive trick and stunts but to me unnatural and unnecessary.


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## loosie

Mylady said:


> I fluently speak 3 languages which is probably more than what you can:wink:


Excuse me!? I'm happy for you with your languages but was only responding to your reasons you wrote for him being a hypocrite.


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## Oneofthefew

That is a a bit bizarre.I am all for working with the horses soul but isolating them certainly does nothing for their soul or spirit.


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## Saddlebag

Have you personally seen how the horses are isolated or are you going by what someone has told you or from someone who told someone who told you? You could claim my horses are isolated. The nearest horse is a mile away by way the crow flies. 3 mi. by road.


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## Mylady

Speed Racer said:


> I personally think Nevzorov is looney tunes, but unless you've been privy to what he does, stating unequivocally that you KNOW he does this or that holds no validity.


Coming back to the subject of Nevzorov - I read his books, watched all of his video material and talked to his followers and in my opinion he is not a trainer worth getting involved with.


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## Saddlebag

Mylady, I respect your decision regarding Mr. N. We all individuals who like or not how someone trains. You've seen the arguments regardin PP and CA - each has his own die-hard followers and nay sayers about the other.


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## Oneofthefew

Saddlebag said:


> Have you personally seen how the horses are isolated or are you going by what someone has told you or from someone who told someone who told you? You could claim my horses are isolated. The nearest horse is a mile away by way the crow flies. 3 mi. by road.


If your question was to me ,I was going by what people mentioned on this thread.


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## Mylady

loosie said:


> Excuse me!? I'm happy for you with your languages but was only responding to your reasons you wrote for him being a hypocrite.


Loosie I believe I explained now why I called him a hypocrite in my second post:lol:.


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## Mylady

Oneofthefew said:


> If your question was to me ,I was going by what people mentioned on this thread.


According to his book - he does keep them in COMPLETE isolation as a part of his training regime. Apparently this is a huge part of his ideology. There is a lot anger about it for example:

Nevzorov Haute Ecole - The Principles: Amazon.co.uk: Film & TV

Nevzorov Haute Ecole and his impression of Parelli


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## Oneofthefew

Mylady said:


> According to his book - he does keep them in COMPLETE isolation as a part of his training regime. Apparently this is a huge part of his ideology. There is a lot anger about it for example:
> 
> I was not aware of that.I am of the opinion that horses are social herd animals and would crave interactions with other horses.I don't agree with isolating horses .At all.


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## Lockwood

While disagreement is perfectly fine here on the Horse Forum, rudeness is not. 
Keep it civil people.


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## kitten_Val

Mylady said:


> While I agree with his ideology on not using bit or any form of pain or discomfort inflicting tack


Not to start the whole discussion on using bits again, but bit does NOT cause the pain or discomfort if fitted and used correctly (and horse doesn't have issues with the mouth like, say, rubs in the corners). 

As for Nevzorov I don't have a respect for the person who is afraid to share the training methods with the crowd, and who doesn't allow any comments/critique if you disagree with something he does. That's a sign of the bad horsemanship IMO.


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## Mylady

kitten_Val said:


> Not to start the whole discussion on using bits again, but bit does NOT cause the pain or discomfort if fitted and used correctly (and horse doesn't have issues with the mouth like, say, rubs in the corners).
> 
> As for Nevzorov I don't have a respect for the person who is afraid to share the training methods with the crowd, and who doesn't allow any comments/critique if you disagree with something he does. That's a sign of the bad horsemanship IMO.


Actually there are tonnes of veterinary research suggesting that bit DOES inflict pain and discomfort to horses mouth and there is no such thing as "correctly fitted" bit. Just as there is no research that suggests "absolutely " that there is no pain from it. So this is upto individual horse owners. I used to be a "traditional" rider I changed because that's what I believe is right for me and my horses. It is an individual choice.

And returning to the topic I hope that soon someone will expose the real deal behind Nevzorov's system - it is only fair for people around the world to know the truth.


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## bsms

Mylady said:


> Actually there are tonnes of veterinary research suggesting that bit DOES inflict pain and discomfort to horses mouth and there is no such thing as "correctly fitted" bit...


Please share a few pounds of the tons of scientific research.


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## Mylady

bsms said:


> Please share a few pounds of the tons of scientific research.


This is a good summary of general study.
NAGtrader - Dr Cook's Bitless Bridle - Why Horses Hate the Bit

some more:

http://www.bitlessbridle.com/EQ_RESEARCH.pdf

".....Dr Cook evaluated the bit with regard to the principles of equine physiology and his 
previous studies of the applied anatomy of the upper airway (see bibliography 
below). “The focus of my research”, he said, “has been the head, neck and chest 
of the horse, so my recent study of the bit’s effect on equine physiology 
represents a continuation of a life-long interest in this region.” Among other 
investigations, he ‘scoped three bitted horses at rest and during treadmill 
exercise, noting the airway obstruction caused by bit-induced tongue and jaw 
movement. Cook also ran exercise trials with four "roarers," first with a bit in their 
mouth and then with the bitless bridle, noting the lessening of the noise or even 
its elimination when the bit was removed. 
At the Natural History Museum (Smithsonian) and the Museum of Comparative 
Zoology (Harvard University), Cook surveyed 48 skulls from horses that were 5 
years old or older for evidence of bone spurs on the mandible caused by the bit. 
He compared these with 20 mature zebra skulls. None of the zebra skulls 
showed any abnormality on the bony ‘bars’ of the mouth. Five Przewalski horses 
that had died in the National Zoological Park and eight feral horses from 
Assateague Island also showed no abnormality, as one might have expected. 
But of the remaining 35 horse skulls, bone spurs on the bars of the mandible 
were present in 26 (74%). The famous Thoroughbred racehorse LEXINGTON 
was one of the 26. A few skulls also had bone spurs on the maxilla......"


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## kitten_Val

^^ Dr. Cook is promoting his bitless bridle, so no wonder you find it on their website. I do not see a _single _reference in that pdf you posted to the paper written by_ someone else_. All "references" are to the papers by Cook (some with collaborators). In a true scientific world (not sure if veterinary is considered as one) it proves nothing BTW. 

And just to add to it. I did talk to Bitless Bridle people in person (at the Expo where they had a demonstration/selling booth), and guess what? They said it does NOT work for every horse.


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## bsms

Somehow I'm not surprised that Dr Cook was brought up. However, his 'research' doesn't say bits cause pain. ANYTHING in the mouth will at least somewhat interfere with breathing thru the mouth, but my horses don't normally breath thu their mouths.

Look at these race horses. See any of them breathing thru their mouth? I don't!










If a bit caused pain, I'd never get on in my mare's mouth. The gelding might put up with it, but my mare wouldn't.

BTW - I rode my horses for 3 years bitless. I tried a crossunder style bitless bridle on them, and they didn't like it. At all. They all act calmer and more relaxed with a bit than bitless, although I sometimes ride them bitless still - in low tension settings.

While I don't approve of my daughter dropping her stirrups, does her horse look like a horse in pain?










Does Mia look like she is in pain, as she pulls on one of the reins?


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## Mylady

Well first of all Dr Cook invented his bridle AFTER an extensive and careful research. And there are other researches apart from Dr Cook ( I will try to find them in English). All vets make money from their work - Dr Cook spent his life researching horses mouth and then developed a more humane bridle. Why is that so bad? 

Cooks bridle does not suit every horse just like there are different types of conventional bridles to suit individual horses. For example I have used "Side pull" bridles on some horses and it worked better than Cook's. 

I am not a follower of any particular bitless bridle - I try, learn and adjust according to individual horse's needs and problems. But I do believe in scientific research by qualified vets and doctors that spend their lives in research I just believe that sticking a piece of metal into anybody's mouth is cruel and unnecessary. Many horses I worked with had completely changed for better since going bitless but that's my experience. 

Didn't I say in one of my previous posts that going bitless is an individual choice? It is up to you to decide what's best for your horse. 

And what has this got to do with the original topic? The question was about Nevzorov and what we thought of him NOT should the horse go bitless or not.


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## LikeaTB

Subbing, I like this thread...pretty interesting


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## bsms

OK, my opinion on Nevzorov: He's nuttier than Dr Cook. Here is one of my litmus tests for horsemanship: If an author says bits are about pain, they are too ignorant to pay attention to. And when someone wants to teach their horses Latin, they are full-blown wacko nutjobs.


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## TheAQHAGirl

I've been told the same thing with bits and that they interfere with the horse's breathing. However I heard that from a Myler DVD and not from Dr. Cook.

Since horses can't physically breath through their mouths, the only way it can do so is the fact that there is something in a horse's mouth which is probably hard for it to swallow, as many know. But I still can't see how that interferes with breathing. Until somebody, not Dr. Cook, tells me scientifically how a horse can't breath well with a bit I will continue to think that its just a way for a person to sell their product.

Like bsms has previously stated, some horses do better in bits than in a bitless bridle. If I'm correct, isn't your Arabian calmer in a bit than a bitless bridle? All horses are different, like different things, etc.

I've ridden my filly in a bitless bridle, halter, Myler (level 1 snaffle), and all of these other things. She rides the same, nothing changed. So frankly, I don't see the point in changing from bit to bitless. To be, a bit is just for asking a horse to get supple, soft, and collected and not for control. I will continue to ride my filly in a bit as when I show, but if I just did trail riding then I would pop in a bitless bridle. Simply because, like I've stated before, bits to me are for suppleness and collection. I don't think I can get my horse collected well in a bitless bridle, but if I did just trail riding then it wouldn't really matter, as long as shes soft in the bitless I'll be fine with it.

The fact that Nevzorov keeps his horses isolated just tells me that he has NO CLUE about horses and their natural ways. He claims that he is natural and that he trains from the soul.










Because this is what happens with you 'train from the soul'. Horses don't train through the soul, they alpha of the heard trains others through his/her body language. And if she has to bite them, then so be it the horse has to move out of the way. I feel that Nevzorov just thinks that training horses is like flying around with a magical wand and not to be the alpha in the relationship because 'I want to be one with the horse.' Again, very unnatural. There is no such thing as 'being one' in the world of horses. Your either the leader or your one below your horse, which is what I think of this guy. There even is a video of his horse biting him, actually I've seen a couple of his horses biting him.

The fact that he doesn't teach his students anything when he works with horses just suggest that he has some black magic going on in that stable. If he truly wanted to help the horses he would be putting up all of his videos and teaching each and every person on how to handle their horses the way he does. And like a previous poster has said, thats very selfish.

Hes a guy off his rocker. No wonder why he doesn't ride his horses anymore. Maybe because one of his horses bucked him off and bonked him in the head a bit more and thought, "Oh dear, I'm getting a message hall horses must not like being ridden!!"


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## kitten_Val

Mylady said:


> And there are other researches apart from Dr Cook ( I will try to find them in English).


Could you post references, please, even if they are not in English? I haven't came across any scientific research that bit causes the pain, besides the papers from those selling bitless bridles (any BB, not just Cook's) and PETA. But I don't consider either to be "scientific". So would be interesting to see some. 

BTW, I completely agree on personal preference (I did start both my mares in sidepull, and then switched to the bit as they progressed), I just disagree that bits (in general) cause pain and discomfort. My sidepull was the gentlest possible (just a wide leather noseband with reins attached, much more gentle than Cook's bridle or indian hackamore), yet both horses prefer bit.


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## Mylady

Even on this picture (like many others with him and the horses) the animal looks stressed and scared to me. I have a theory on his training - I hope I am wrong but I think he uses some kind of electric shock device:twisted: because on his videos the way the horses react to him and then perform these tricks it is possible that they were subjected to some kind of shock treatment. But this is just my thoughts running away with me so please don't dwell on it:lol:


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## Mylady

kitten_Val said:


> Could you post references, please, even if they are not in English? I haven't came across any scientific research that bit causes the pain, besides the papers from those selling bitless bridles (any BB, not just Cook's) and PETA. But I don't consider either to be "scientific". So would be interesting to see some.
> 
> BTW, I completely agree on personal preference (I did start both my mares in sidepull, and then switched to the bit as they progressed), I just disagree that bits (in general) cause pain and discomfort. My sidepull was the gentlest possible (just a wide leather noseband with reins attached, much more gentle than Cook's bridle or indian hackamore), yet both horses prefer bit.


I will forward info to you asap it's just the paper is in bloody Russian:lol:


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## loosie

Yeah, I sure want to see those 'tonnes' of research about bits, ML! If you're so amazing with with languages, you should be able to translate the Russian paper easily enough for us. What about the rest? 2 (possible) examples are far from 'tonnes' & would like to see Dr Cook's actual research.

I've seen what Dr Cook has to say, but nothing else. His work is interesting & I tend to give 'benefit of doubt' to it, that I'm by no means dismissing it & it is entirely obvious to me that bits *can* & do easily cause pain & other issues far too commonly. BUT I am far from convinced they're *necessarily* a bad thing. I do personally think they are best confined to being used with a well trained horse *and rider* though.


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## kayhmk

loosie said:


> Forgot to say thanks & will check out your links Kayhmk too. But is there an English version of that Polka/Spanish walk one, or could you give a basic explanation of how they go about teaching this?


At least to my knowledge the book is still being translated into English, so there's no official translation of the page(s). However, I suspect much of it goes the same way as • View topic - 2: Spanish Walk and Polka + VIDEO
(and Jambette discussion here: • View topic - 2: Jambette)

With the limited preview pages and my limited Dutch skills it seems *very* close to that topic & videos. Just with more background/ideology exposed.


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## Mylady

loosie said:


> Yeah, I sure want to see those 'tonnes' of research about bits, ML! If you're so amazing with with languages, you should be able to translate the Russian paper easily enough for us. What about the rest? 2 (possible) examples are far from 'tonnes' & would like to see Dr Cook's actual research.
> 
> I've seen what Dr Cook has to say, but nothing else. His work is interesting & I tend to give 'benefit of doubt' to it, that I'm by no means dismissing it & it is entirely obvious to me that bits *can* & do easily cause pain & other issues far too commonly. BUT I am far from convinced they're *necessarily* a bad thing. I do personally think they are best confined to being used with a well trained horse *and rider* though.


I have read all of the research in Russian as Russian is my first language but I am not going to sit translate and type pages and pages of stuff (and there is a lot of it)- sorry I have better things to do with my time - like working with my horse for example. However if you are interested I can forward you the info you can look up references yourself and one article in particular can be easily translated using online translator. 

I think Dr Cooks published papers are also available online - google it. If not then it would be archived in equine studies section in veterinary university online catalogues.


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## bsms

Dr Cooks published papers aren't going to convince me my eyes are liars.

Yes, a bit can hurt a horse. And yes, if your horse is panicking and not responding to cues, a sidepull halter can take the hair off of your horse's face - and I suspect that involves some pain too. I know because I've done it. And if you pull hard enough on Dr Cook's bitless bridle, you will put a lot of pressure on the jaw. I'd bet that can hurt as well.

I would bet the bit I used today hurt Mia several times. She was having a "You're not the boss of me!" day. At one point, she nearly backed into a large cactus, and THAT would have hurt her too. Not to mention what would have happened if she ran out onto a road where the speed limit is 50 mph.

When she was about to ram the cactus, I swatted her rump HARD with a leather strap. She didn't like it, but she would have liked the cactus spines stuck in her butt a lot less! We did some tight 360s, too. When she wanted to canter (or faster), we stopped. Didn't need a pulley stop, but I wasn't being gentle on the reins.

I wish I could have been. I prefer riding with slack in the reins. Heck, I'd prefer riding with a sidepull halter - but a horse who refuses to listen to her rider can kill herself and her rider. And I don't want to die.

After about 10-15 minutes of near constant fussing, she decided to give in. For the rest of the ride, turns were based on leg cues. Back to the arena, we cantered a couple of laps and then stopped from the canter. A complete and quick stop. No sliding, of course, but she didn't waste time, stopped with her feet squared and didn't move until asked.

After dismounting, I removed the halter, held my hand next to her face, and she rubbed against my hand for several minutes. No, there was no blood on the bit and no sign of injury. I needed to wait for some others, and she stood relaxed next to me, nose at my hip.

Yes, bits can cause pain. So can bitless bridles. Neither is intended to cause pain. But horses get a vote in things, and a horse who votes to endanger her rider needs consequences that will change the vote. Nevzorov's solution is to stop riding. But my horses get bored with a 70' corral, and I don't want to pay $20/bale of hay to feed large pets. Heck, my wife didn't feel like riding today, so she walked our little mustang on a lead line with us (my daughter & I and our horses).

But while there was nothing mild or kind about my hands during part of the ride today, at the end my horse enjoyed her face rubs, enjoyed getting her mane brushed and seemed to enjoy hanging out with me as we waited for the others. I played with her bangs and scrapped some goop out of the corner of her eye with my fingernail. And unlike Nevzorov's horse, she didn't try to bite me...:wink:


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## TheAQHAGirl

Bsms said that perfectly.

I've posted this image before and I will post it again..









Those are the nerves on a horse's face. Bitless bridles can cause just as much pain as a bit can. I've actually seen a lot more blood come from bosals and rope halters than a bit. Dr. Cook's bitless bridle has caused nerve damage in the past.

There just isn't any difference when it comes it pain between a bit and a bitless bridle.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Ehh. Another bit less craze.. I'm about one of the most traditional trainers and riders you'll find. I've done extensive research and have never found any true study that showed that bits are more painful that any form of bit less bridle or rope halter. They are merely opinions, like Dr. Cook, he is just marketing his fad and saying bits are cruel to make a buck on some contraption that I wouldn't put on one of my horses if you paid me. I ride a horse bit less for at least the first year of their training, with a rawhide bosal hackamore. And then they step up to bigger bits, and there is never an issue with a horse being in pain with a properly adjusted bridle bit. And this is in around 150 head of horses. But on the contrary, I've seen horses faces scarred and indented, with scar tissue on their lower jaw and chin from ill use of a mechanical hackamore. I've seen horses noses bloodied with a wrongly used bosal. I've seen horses shake their head madly because rope halters pull on very sensitive hairs around their eyes. I have seen hard mouthed horses, but I haven't ever seen a horses face disfigured by a bit. Did you know you can break a horses jaw with a mechanical hackamore? There is no truth behind the bit less fad. I've dealt with all of these problems caused by bit less bridles used wrongly. Don't get me wrong, I love riding horses in a bosal. But the bit less craze is only a fad. Any training or riding equipment can be painful if used wrongly. Ignorant humans cause horses pain, not the equipment itself.


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## loosie

Agree mostly with you BSM & Wanstrom, that yes, you can most definitely hurt a horse with any headgear & that *possibly* a bit used strongly doesn't hurt any more than a harsh halter or hack used badly. And for that matter, I'd probably be no more reticent about tying a horse up firm with a bitted bridle as in a thin, virtually unbreakable rope halter.

I just don't personally think that you're likely to do as much damage/pain using a halter a little strongly as doing the same with a 'simple' snaffle or such. Which is why I like to teach a horse(& rider) to yield reliably(respond softly with understanding) to pressure before using a bit. IME of 'retraining' horses, I have also found that generally bitsour horses go so much better in a halter or such.

I do believe that bits were *originally* designed to control a horse through force & the *ability* to create acute pain. I just can't think of a good reason people would have come up with pieces of metal in a horse's sensitive mouth otherwise. I also believe that when it comes to safety(& we all know, even with the best training, stuff can happen), it's 'right' to do whatever is necessary. 

So.... I agree with you also Wanstrom, that it seems to just come down to a matter of opinion & experience, but I think it's important to consider the 'arguments'.... along with considering everything else we do to/with horses objectively so we can make more informed opinions ;-)


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## kitten_Val

loosie said:


> If you're so amazing with with languages, you should be able to translate the Russian paper easily enough for us.


Actually it's quite hard to translate a technical text (unless you are a professional interpreter).  I speak several languages myself, and I had a very hard time recently translating a medical paper (just 1 page) for my mom's friend. And my translation was (khmmmmmm) very far from perfect...


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## Ray MacDonald

Firstly, horses don't breathe through their mouths. They can cough but they don't breathe through their mouths. Period.

Secondly, a bit is a tool. Period. A physical object. It is what you do with that object that will become a good thing or a bad thing.

A knife is an amazing tool. Try to go a whole day without using a knife. It's hard. So, I knife is very useful but can also easily kill someone. It's not the knive's fault, it is the person who used is the wrong way.

So, bits do not cause pain. It is only the hands that use the bit, will use it the correct way (which wont cause pain) or incorrectly (which will cause pain).

This also goes for Bitless bridles, Hackamores, bosals etc.. Used with too much pressure they will tear the skin and break the horse's nasal bone or jaw bone.


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## loosie

I have to ask then Ray, if it's as simple as that, what's wrong with using a knife in place of a bit?? Seems to me it's similar to the 'guns don't kill people' argument... tho it seems that there are a lot more 'people killers' in the US for eg...

BTW I'm not against bits in any situation, just in general. I wouldn't be against seeing someone with the skill of like... JF Pignon for eg riding with a knife blade bit either, but that's not to say I'd like to see that sort of equipment as general use & condoned as not harmful.


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## Ray MacDonald

Tools don't kill people.... It is what you do with the tool that will benifit or not benifit animal or human.

A knife is sharp and so when any amount of pressure would be put on 'knife bit' it would cut the horse.... I don't recommend 'knife bits' LOL

I can understand what your point is, and I do agree that some mouth pieces shouldn't exist (Such as mule bits and bicycle chains).

But the larger picture is that bits don't hurt horses... It is the pressure you apply to the bit that will determine if there will be pain.
-Example would be, jerking the rein, which would cause a sharp increase of pressure, which would result in pain.


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## loosie

Ray MacDonald said:


> I can understand what your point is, and I do agree that some mouth pieces shouldn't exist (Such as mule bits and bicycle chains).
> 
> But the larger picture is that bits don't hurt horses...


As with knives & bicycle chain bits, tools are designed with a particular purpose. Bits are around because people discovered you could control a horse with force easily when you apply it to a piece of metal in their mouth. Just because people CAN use them with sensitivity, just like some people can juggle knives... Perhaps in your circle you're all well trained riders on well trained horses, but my 'larger picture', not just local, but looking at so many horse events around the world, not just novice stuff by far either, is that bits do indeed *very commonly* hurt horses. Of course it's (usually, unless they get them caught on something) down to the hands on the reins, but most people & horses don't have enough training/skill to ensure they'd never hurt the horse.


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## Ray MacDonald

A bitless bridle can just as easily hurt and damage a horse the same amount as a bit.


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## loosie

I disagree. Yes, any equipment has the ability to be used painfully, but some, being designed that way, is far more easily able than others.


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