# Why anti-Parelli now?



## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

I am not looking for you're views on Parelli, nor do I wish to read them....but why do some of you seem so anti-Parelli. I mean yes I know it's not everyone's cup of tea....nor am I trying to force it onto you (and apologies if it seems that way, but I am not)...but why bash it and be totally rude about it?
People ask questions and I'm just telling stuff that has worked for my horse....yes, that does NOT mean it will work for any horse, but it worked for mine so I give the option. I have tried 99% of the suggested stuff I get (not so much anymore...but I definately used to) whether I thought it would work or not. I tried side-reins for building a topline and many other things that I didn't particually like or agree with, I found out for myself if they truely did any good.
There are many ways to teach a horse to do something...just like there are many ways to walk or waht not...so why not suggest all of the "hows" to get something achieved. The question-asker can then use her BS-eliminator and choose which ones she/he wants to try

If you would all perfer, I'll stop all my NH posts unless the topic CLEARLY states that they want info on NH or Parelli...I'll only post for critiques, pictures, videos, in Horse Talk, and Off Topic so I'll be in no situation to suggest it: if you all would perfer not to read my Parelli posts. But honestly I am 100% sick of some of the members rude comments. I defiantely don't want to leave, but really some of the anti-Parelli comments are making me dislike posting on this forum.

So, would you all rather me stop posting Parelli stuff unless a post actually ASKS about it? And just post in pictures, critiques, health, tack, horse talk, off-topic and such like that?


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## Supermane (Sep 23, 2007)

*I am personally not a fan of Parelli, but I don't think that you should stop posting. People have different opinions on what they think is right for them and their horses and it's up to them to decide which methods to try and which one to ignore. However I don't see a problem with other refuting the training methods and offering what they believe is a better method.*


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Supermane said:


> *I am personally not a fan of Parelli, but I don't think that you should stop posting. People have different opinions on what they think is right for them and their horses and it's up to them to decide which methods to try and which one to ignore. However I don't see a problem with other refuting the training methods and offering what they believe is a better method.*


I agree.....nothing wrong with making comments on areas you have EXPERIENCE in and if you don't understand another method it is sometimes best to say nothing. There are ways of saying you don't think another method is not your cup of tea and we need to remind ourselves that it should not end up having negative overtones.

We must also be aware that those that post here are many times unknown to you and may in fact know something about the topic so assumptions should not be made that they either don't or could not possibily know or give a reasonable answer.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Why am I anti-Parelli? I'm going to be very blunt. It is NOT directed to any members of this forum, but a statement in general. 

It seems that his method has become a cult - you're either in or you're out. If you're out you get looked down upon.
I find stuff like the whole "horsenalities" thing rediculous. Just like people you can't categorize horses into 4 categories and go in and fix things just "so." And the bits he "designed" for each horsenality? Expensive as all get out, and I'm willing to bet don't work on each horse that is in that "category."
I find him to be a money-making machine that doesn't care who he steps on.
The "followers" I find try to push their views on everyone around them even if they aren't asked. I find they are not open to suggestions from more erm.. traditional methods?
The program is delivered in such a way that any person feels they can do it with any horse, which is not the case. I have seen some pretty messed up horses resulting. A lot of the horses seem bored as well.

Of course it's always good to take what you can, but being strictly Parelli doesn't make you a well-rounded horseperson. I find that learning as many methods as humanly possible and making your own method for each horse is the best. 

Wow I'm tired, did any of that make sense? Questions? I'll be back tomorrow


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## moomoo (Feb 21, 2007)

JDI took the words out of my mouth :lol:

Nobody should stop you posting what you think and we certainly wouldn't want you to leave  There is also confilct between different non nh training methods, so the poster just decides which would better on their horse, since they know their horse best


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

I find it interesting that no other clinician brings about such heated debates (except Monte Roberts - but that has more to do with his book then his methods). To paraphrase JDI, you either love him or hate him. I do agree that some of the equipment he sells is ridiculous in price and function although some of his methods are sound.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

I think if there is fault to be placed it should be on Linda not so much Pat. Linda is a business woman and its obvious she is in it for the money. I think Pat is still a great horseman and as iridehorses said, his methods are sound. 
The method has just gotten muddied by the hype and paraphernalia.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

Spyder, I do only post for stuff that I have had experience with with my horse or have literally seen work with a friend's horse. I'm not going to suggest something that I haven't heard any feedback on, just like I'm not going to suggest a specific grain for a sick horse....because I know nothing on that topic.

It just seems like the last few times I've posted something on my views...something that has worked for me, that I get some jumping on my back and a whole arguement starting.

Yes I definately do not have a problem with people saying "You could do this also" and refuting the idea....but to literally go and bash my suggestion down because you don't believe it will work or don't like the concept. (You not meaning you Supermane or anything in particual)

Spyder, I have never once given an assumption on something that I'm not too sure about horse training wise. If I suggest something that I've never tried or I've heard worked but never tried it (normally in the health section), I will definately imform the person that "I've heard" or "I've never tried this but...". 

Yes, some prices are high....but are you looking at the price if a non-member buys it or a savvy club member? Yes things are expensive...but what isn't these days? I mean honestly...my dog food went up $4 in the last week. I think things are fairly maked prices...maybe a tad bit high, but it is quality stuff...not cheap made materials that are going to break.

Yes, definately with Parelli, you either love it or hate it. And sadly it's soooo easy to mess up on it so half of the videos you see on youtube, the people are not doing it properly, so the horse looks bored, uninterested, and like he wants to die. It's not supposed to be boring to a horse, and if done properly I've never seen a horse bored from it. I think that's how some of the bad rep. came about is because, yes, in ALOT of videos for the 7 Games...the horses look bored...but we don't know the history of the horse, how much that person worked that horse over and over again to get it right for the camera. Every method has pros and cons, I just never understood why of all, Parelli is the most picked on.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I'm a little late joining this discussion but...

*IN MY OPINION*
The Parelli program has taken methods that to me are pretty common and they've given them steps and called them games. I think part of why I havent really been impressed is that I've seen things and thought, well I do that and ... everyone does that... 

My concerns are that alot of people that are Parelli followers and I do not use the word follower lightly, I feel like it's a "cult" might be a strong word but it's all I can come up with... Anyway, the people will tell you that you are having problems with your horse because he's not happy, because you are scaring him, or you are hurting him... I love my horse, he's not afraid of me and I'm not hurting him... I kind of take offense to those statements because I feel like they are telling me I don't know what I'm doing or I'm doing it wrong... which leads me into the idea that there is only one right way to do things....

I have a friend that was a really strong rider back in the day, and she's never taken a break, she was heavy into dressage and was really really good. She came back here to the US (we were in Germany together-our parents were military) and she bought a horse and got into the Parelli program. I also got a horse and I remember she downed me all the time about how I did things... I feel like I have continued to improve and learn where she to me, has gone backwards. Her horses were always very collected and on the bit where now they are strung out and ... I don't know but she's got the certifications...

I think i'm rambling now. Sorry...

My main thing is the idea that there is only one right way to do things that bothers me most. 

I hope I didn't offend anyone...


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## Kiara (Aug 27, 2008)

Ok, so I am new to all those different ways of riding and horse-handling. I just used to ride lessons and had no idea about Parelli, Andersson and all the like. And honestly, I like learning about different ideas and ways. That doens't mean I agree with each and every one or that I like everything they do. Maybe I just like one part from one person and another part from another person. And that is my right. I can look into all different styles and ways and then create my own. That might be 60-90% Parelli or it might be 60-90% not-Parelli. Does it affect somebody else? No. Unless I abuse my horse does it really matter what I call my style? I don't think so. I think everybody should go out and find out about different styles. You never know, you can always learn something new, whether you like the rest of it or not. Maybe you just like 1%of what someone is doing, but you have found something you like.

That is one reason why I believe that no one should be bashed for explaining a style. They just offer you information and what worked for them. Does that mean you have to do it? No. Does it mean you have to agree with it? No. All it is is a person offering an option that has worked for them and maybe work for you. YOU can then take bits and pieces or even whole things that you liked and apply them and see what works in YOUR situation. So unless someone is really being rude and straight out saying "You do it my way or you're stupid/doing it wrong..." (which I have never seen Sonny do!) there is really no reason to be rude to a person if all they offer is some advice. After all, somebody asked for advice and they will get different answers. And that is GREAT! The more different advice you get the more options of figuring out what will work for you! 

If you happen to really dislike something, you can voice it by saying: "I personally would do it this way... I have found this works better for me." Or something along those lines. You can say that the other style hasn't worked for you, but don't discredit it. Even if one style is in your opinion about money making, there is still an underlying theory to it and you can just stick with that and avoid the parts you dislike. Basically, make it positive not negative: just give another option of doing things if you disagree with an advice that's been given. 

So Sonny, *hugs* don't let anybody get you down. Some people mistakenly let their frustration about Parelli or whatever comes with him out on you, which is uncalled for. Just keep offering advice. There is nothing wrong with that! On the contrary.

Ok, I'm done


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

OK then ... I think we need to get back on topic and not make this personal.

This does refer to what JDI said and that is how it is ether a black or white subject and how passionate riders are about Parelli.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

SonnyWimps said:


> And sadly it's soooo easy to mess up on it so half of the videos you see on youtube, the people are not doing it properly, so the horse looks bored, uninterested, and like he wants to die.
> 
> Every method has pros and cons, I just never understood why of all, Parelli is the most picked on.


My point exactly - if Parelli is soooo easy to mess up, then why promote a DVD to "train yourself"?? I'm not attacking you Sonny, I'm taking a stab at Parelli. He (or Linda, I'm not up to date on this stuff) promotes the program as being for every horse and rider, and although it may work for many horses, it sure as heck isn't for every horse. And you said it yourself Sonny, it's easy to mess up - so why is it on DVD where you don't get feedback, and go at it on your own blindly? 

You can't learn to train a horse from a video.

..yet people do? 

Parelli isn't the most picked on, but he's the "flavour of the month" so you're going to find a lot more discussion on him than Jo Schmo that hasn't been in the limelight yet - never fear, Jo Schmo, your time is a' comin'.

ETA - I also cannot stand the fact that he insists that he can teach the general public that they can do a piaffe on their horse, when in fact there is NO base to collection or building muscle for the maneuver.
Yes, horses can stand in spot hollow and strung out and move their feet in opposite pairs... that is NOT a true piaffe.
Because of the way he teaches it, there is really no relation to dressage, impulsion, collection, nor a true piaffe. 
So... you get lots of riders doing these silly one-two movements on their horses that think they're getting Princess to piaffe, when they're not... not at all. 
To the untrained eye it looks cool, and it "looks" like a piaffe, but it is NOT.

..problem is, just like rearing is "cool," everyone wants to do it to impress Jack across the road... right?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I think the reason Parelli seems so picked on, is because there are a ton of Parelli people on this board which opens the debate in tons of posts because inevitably, someone is going to post a parelli thought and then someone else is going to post a disagreeable thought and then a fist is going to fly and a lip is going to bleed and feelings are going to get hurt and the world is going to end and ... Sonny, can I have your horse?


... You ought to do a poll...

Parelli
Anti-Parelli
Open to all


or something like that....


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## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

I have no use for him. But everyone is entitled to their opinions and should be allowed to post whatever they want.


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## moomoo (Feb 21, 2007)

> I think if there is fault to be placed it should be on Linda not so much Pat. Linda is a business woman and its obvious she is in it for the money.


I also agree with that, and the "cult" comparison.



> Yes, some prices are high....but are you looking at the price if a non-member buys it or a savvy club member?


Does it cost money to become a savvy club member? And that is also linked with the cult theme! lol

(Not getting at you Sonny  )


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

iride, what I mainly meant is rude anti-Parelli posts on why. I think everyone is being great about the whole matter and not even close into debate mode.
Currently we are just throwing back opinions to each other...not trying to say "this is the right way" as you would in debating.



> My point exactly - if Parelli is soooo easy to mess up, then why promote a DVD to "train yourself"?? I'm not attacking you Sonny, I'm taking a stab at Parelli. He (or Linda, I'm not up to date on this stuff) promotes the program as being for every horse and rider, and although it may work for many horses, it sure as heck isn't for every horse. And you said it yourself Sonny, it's easy to mess up - so why is it on DVD where you don't get feedback, and go at it on your own blindly?




I think his (Parelli....not sure if it was Linda's or Pat's......probably Linda's) whole plan was to put out the DVDs and have the students keep in contact with a Parelli profesional in order to get questions answered and feedback. I think it's just like someone teaching themselves to ride or jump. I taught myself to jump...I had no formal lessons for jumping (and no informal either). I watched LOADS of youtube videos and read books and tried it and tried it until I could jump without falling off. But I KNOW I am not doing it correctly, and I look horrible. Or if someone teaches themselves to ride...sure they will be able to w/t/c but does that mean their equitation would be good? Maybe...maybe not.
I guess I'm rambling....due to my mind is totally burned from a reasearch paper homework :-x lol

JDI, I definately might be wrong and chances are I am, but isn't the first step of teaching a Piaffe just teaching the horse where the feet go...then they combine it with being collected? You know more about dressage than I do...so I'm just curious to know....that, to me, would be the logical way to teach it...but I dunno lol



> ... Sonny, can I have your horse?


:-| Do I have to repeat myself? :lol::lol::lol:


Moo, it's $20 a month for the savvy club. Every month you'll get a DVD and/or their magazine, then access to the Parelli forum and other stuff. If you are planning on a purcahse of alot of stuff, it's definately worth it IMO. ONly reason I joined was because I was ordering stuff and I ended up saving over $100 from being a member.
No cult themes hehe...but there are crossword puzzles :lol::lol: 




> My main thing is the idea that there is only one right way to do things that bothers me most.


I agree there. There is no ONE method that is right. There are lots of methods that will teach the horse the same thing that will work, and none should be rated more than others.


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## moomoo (Feb 21, 2007)

> No cult themes hehe...but there are crossword puzzles


haha :lol:


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

SonnyWimps said:


> JDI, I definately might be wrong and chances are I am, but isn't the first step of teaching a Piaffe just teaching the horse where the feet go...then they combine it with being collected? You know more about dressage than I do...so I'm just curious to know....that, to me, would be the logical way to teach it...but I dunno lol


Blah, I'm sick, so I don't have the mental power to make long posts.
But collection comes first. Then you start asking for a collected, springy trot. Then you ask for a more collected trot, then more collected, etc... no the horse won't get it right off the bat, but it is a completely and totally different principle than Parelli's - Parelli is just about the feet, nothing else really. They don't do a correct Piaffe.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

What gets me about Parelli is the same thing that gets my husband about Arctic Rim Riding Boots and Pecasso (sp) saddles -- the Snob level that too many people have with it. 

I could do all the stuff I wanted that works on Parelli ideas and Natural Horsemanship ideas and Monty Roberts ideas, etc. etc. but if I don't CALL it Parelli, I'm nothing in "that" circle. Like many others that have posted, I think all training methods have some good in them and I like to think I am open to listening to them. Hopefully, I listen well enough to feel I can make a good decision on whether it will work for me and the horse I'm working with.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

JDI, I meant after the horse has achieved collection of course. Would they start teaching them while they are collected? Or just get them to know the cues and how to move their feet, then once they get it slowly add in collection? I'm curious to know now


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## ArabianAmor (Aug 20, 2008)

MY trainer met him and he pretty much said her horse was flat out dumb. When he is the most talented four-year old I know. So as far as him personally, I don't like him. He was very rude.

As far as his teachings, they can be really helpful. I just dont think that you need all the fancy tools he says you do... Horses dont know any different! Lol.

But dont ever stop posting your opinions, especially if it is something that has worked for you!!!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

SonnyWimps said:


> JDI, I meant after the horse has achieved collection of course. Would they start teaching them while they are collected? Or just get them to know the cues and how to move their feet, then once they get it slowly add in collection? I'm curious to know now


Sorry Sonny, brain = offline right now I will post again when I can actually think about what I want to say to answer it.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

What annoys me is that he used general horse knowledge, pull his name on it and then sells it for a ridiculous amount of money.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

sorry to get off topic...but M2G is that COBALT in that picture?!?! :shock: He's sexy!


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

SonnyWimps said:


> sorry to get off topic...but M2G is that COBALT in that picture?!?! :shock: He's sexy!


:lol: no, my pumpkin is far from bring that filled in, he still looks like a baby. It is a Canadian tho


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> Sorry Sonny, brain = offline right now I will post again when I can actually think about what I want to say to answer it.


Getting tired JDI ...... well I will help but this explaination is not directed at any one person.

A good piaffe takes time and only a step here or there is conceived at first. I find the biggest fault when teaching piaffe is that the trainer can be so busy getting the legs to move correctly that they force the issue and brilliance and animation is lost. Collection comes first and with the introduction of the shortened half steps the horse learns to slowly carry hinmself with an increased bend/load in the hind end. All work must cease when the steps become flat, dull or listless. 

To push the horse just to get the legs moving is both incorrect and can lead to an uninspired movement that does not enhance the horse or even look pretty.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

ArabianAmor said:


> As far as his teachings, they can be really helpful. I just dont think that you need all the fancy tools he says you do... Horses dont know any different! Lol.


Yeah they are not needed, but I found that they are handy at times. I buy all the off brand stuff....but they break so easy lol so that is when I invested in the real ones and they seem to last longer. But it's all definately not needed (unless you plan to take the level tests, then some of the stuff is required...but I believe they allow offbrand stuff also)


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## ArabianAmor (Aug 20, 2008)

SonnyWimps said:


> Yeah they are not needed, but I found that they are handy at times. I buy all the off brand stuff....but they break so easy lol so that is when I invested in the real ones and they seem to last longer. But it's all definately not needed (unless you plan to take the level tests, then some of the stuff is required...but I believe they allow offbrand stuff also)


The bridles and things are more of what I'm talking about... But whatever works, I mean heck! Use it!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Spyder said:


> Getting tired JDI ...... well I will help but this explaination is not directed at any one person.
> 
> A good piaffe takes time and only a step here or there is conceived at first. I find the biggest fault when teaching piaffe is that the trainer can be so busy getting the legs to move correctly that they force the issue and brilliance and animation is lost. Collection comes first and with the introduction of the shortened half steps the horse learns to slowly carry hinmself with an increased bend/load in the hind end. All work must cease when the steps become flat, dull or listless.
> 
> To push the horse just to get the legs moving is both incorrect and can lead to an uninspired movement that does not enhance the horse or even look pretty.


Thank you Spyder, that's pretty much what I was trying to get at. My trainer always said "just put a wall in front of the horse with your aids and keep the horse brilliant and trotting... just in place" 
Of course there's a lot more to it than that, but that's the only thing that was coming to mind at the moment.. 
I'm lying in bed sick at the moment and didn't think that was a good enough explanation, thank you for stepping in


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## sandy2u1 (May 7, 2008)

I cant speak for everyone...but when I post a question...I welcome suggestions from any kind of training method. when im having a training problem or working through an issue...I sometimes need more than one tip or technique to get through it. if something works for me and my horse...i am very grateful and I dont care if it comes from parrelli, anderson or joe-bob whats his face. dont let some peoples negativity stop you from posting.....you are helping people when you offer them advice!!!! dont lose sight of that!


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> Thank you Spyder, that's pretty much what I was trying to get at. My trainer always said "just put a wall in front of the horse with your aids and keep the horse brilliant and trotting... just in place"
> Of course there's a lot more to it than that, but that's the only thing that was coming to mind at the moment..
> I'm lying in bed sick at the moment and didn't think that was a good enough explanation, thank you for stepping in


man we should have a sicky and injured party. I'm still sitting in the middle of a stomach virus. I didn't even think I would make today thru my shift. Come on over, we'll watch some movies.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

ArabianAmor said:


> The bridles and things are more of what I'm talking about... But whatever works, I mean heck! Use it!


well ya hehe. I'm getting one of the bits because Sonny chomps on the two bits I have and doesn't seem to like them. He'll take 'em....but he's not overly thrilled about taking them. And I gotta get a new headstall also since my headstall will not work with the bit (I think I'll be getting the cradle bit and try it since he likes no tongue pressure) and the bit has a string that hooks to the brow band....well mine doesn't have a browband so I need to get another one that does. And I might as well get the Parelli once since it's cheaper. But other than that, no I wouldn't buy their hackamore (why when I can make their own), and their confidence bit or their bareback pad.

I LOVE their saddle (English one) but there ain't no way I'll ever get that lol...I can dream though :lol:


M2G, can I join? I gotta cold


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

SonnyWimps said:


> well ya hehe. I'm getting one of the bits because Sonny chomps on the two bits I have and doesn't seem to like them. He'll take 'em....but he's not overly thrilled about taking them. And I gotta get a new headstall also since my headstall will not work with the bit (I think I'll be getting the cradle bit and try it since he likes no tongue pressure) and the bit has a string that hooks to the brow band....well mine doesn't have a browband so I need to get another one that does. And I might as well get the Parelli once since it's cheaper. But other than that, no I wouldn't buy their hackamore (why when I can make their own), and their confidence bit or their bareback pad.
> 
> I LOVE their saddle (English one) but there ain't no way I'll ever get that lol...I can dream though :lol:
> 
> ...


Come on over, we'll make hot chocolate


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## ArabianAmor (Aug 20, 2008)

SonnyWimps said:


> well ya hehe. I'm getting one of the bits because Sonny chomps on the two bits I have and doesn't seem to like them. He'll take 'em....but he's not overly thrilled about taking them. And I gotta get a new headstall also since my headstall will not work with the bit (I think I'll be getting the cradle bit and try it since he likes no tongue pressure) and the bit has a string that hooks to the brow band....well mine doesn't have a browband so I need to get another one that does. And I might as well get the Parelli once since it's cheaper. But other than that, no I wouldn't buy their hackamore (why when I can make their own), and their confidence bit or their bareback pad.
> 
> I LOVE their saddle (English one) but there ain't no way I'll ever get that lol...I can dream though :lol:


Like I said... whatever works!  The stuff is really nice too....


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

HOT CHOCOLATE?! YUM! With whipped cream too, right?!

Arab, yeah it's definately a little over priced and definately not needed. Some I find helps alot, but I could do any of it without my Parelli stuff. It just makes it easier :lol: (and I get too lazy to do things the hard way :lol


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

SonnyWimps said:


> HOT CHOCOLATE?! YUM! With whipped cream too, right?!
> 
> Arab, yeah it's definately a little over priced and definately not needed. Some I find helps alot, but I could do any of it without my Parelli stuff. It just makes it easier :lol: (and I get too lazy to do things the hard way :lol


waw, I haven't done that in a looong time. Definitely whip cream.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I had no idea they had their own line of saddles as well... wow, talk about a business savy couple!


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

yeh...they have English and Western.....
lemme find the links:
Pat Parelli Natural Horsemanship. Savvy shopping online


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Uh... they all have little arrows that say "Parelli Inside!"

... can I go ahead and hope and wish that means they killed Parelli and stuffed the saddles with him??


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

LOL! OMIGOSH! RFLOL!!!!

I mean.. AHEM...

NOT NICE JDI!

Sorry Sonny, but you have to admit... that was kind of funny....

The western ones look kind of weird the english one looks comfy but is it leather?


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

yeah it was kinda funny lol

Yeah I have NO idea what they mean by that lol

Yeah it's leather...at least I'm pretty sure it is.
"
*Our saddles are hand made from the finest quality English and Italian leathers and are built on a laminated birchwood/steel spring tree (the materials in the construction of this tree are traditional in fine English saddlemaking. However, the shape/design features of our tree are not those of "normal" saddles on the market)."*


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## Brandon (Jan 17, 2008)

Well I will try to keep my opinion short and to the point.

I have very limited knowledge about Parelli and what it offers, so I really can't take a side. However, I do disagree with *some *of these parelli finactics pressing Parelli on others. 

However, I am going to purchase Parelli's "7 games" and see if they work for me. I just want to learn how to better train my horse, and if I get a better horse out of it then it was a good investment. 

I am a very open person, so I am consider all methods. So I will also look into John lyons, and other well known trainers and see if they can help me out.

I am currently studying john lyons and he offers a good approach to things, but i want to learn more.

Thanks,
Brandon


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I have to admit... I am a fan of John Lyons although... he's really high on prices too....

You got me thinking Brandon, I'm borrowing the VHS tapes from a friend of mine...


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

you can also learn a lot of Parelli from Parelli himself for free...he does a lot of demonstrations that are open to the public...he really pushes his system in the demonstration, but you do get to see a lot of neat stuff ;-)


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> Uh... they all have little arrows that say "Parelli Inside!"
> 
> ... can I go ahead and hope and wish that means they killed Parelli and stuffed the saddles with him??


HAHAHAHAHA! very nice :lol: :lol:


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

SonnyWimps said:


> yeah it was kinda funny lol
> 
> Yeah I have NO idea what they mean by that lol
> 
> ...


WEll of course their saddles are different than those on the market. They need to justify HOW their saddles are different and how otherwise what would be the point to buy their "finest" saddles


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Sonny, is this your horse before you bought him??


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> Sonny, is this your horse before you bought him??
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrXDA5hnTXo


That is a nicely trained horse. Nice neck good temperment etc. Doesn't look at all like SW's horse other than the markings look like Sonny's horse.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I believe thats SW's horse because in on her favorites on youtube..


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

On second thought that IS jennys horse I looked at pictures and compared and there exaclly the same.


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

i believe that is her horse- i remember seeing this video before


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

Spyder, why is it so surprising that, that horse is MY horse? hehe
Yep that's my boy. I bought him from Lara Delorenzo. That was his "for sale" video.

Here's the video of both of us before I bought him


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

SonnyWimps said:


> Spyder, why is it so surprising that, that horse is MY horse? hehe




I'll take a chance and answer for her... haha sorry Spyder, let me know if I'm wrong:
Sonny looks completely different now.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

yeah let's just say my last instructor was a real ***** and taught me to ride by horrible ways (she suggested using a shank bit with a high port) to get his head down. Of course I did not do that, but just using that as an example so you guys get the idea.

He still moves the same....but because I was taught alot wrong, I would ride him in the wrong frame...making him loose his muscles everywhere


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Actually, he looks very very good in the videos... working through his back, doing very well with a bit - he's on contact and in a frame, and using himself really well. 


Alrightey I don't want this thread to go any further with my participation, so I am done... I think I made my point 


Jenny, Sonny is a great horse and you're lucky to have him. I'm sure others will explain what I meant by posting the previous videos.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Hey sonny Idk why but it looks like he had a better top line then and used it hind more... Just what i see.


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

At her old barn though, she was instructed improperly...causing the horse to loose a lot of what he had. 

She's in the process now of bringing him back...and has done a very nice job thus far - still has a way to go, but is doing great


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> I'll take a chance and answer for her... haha sorry Spyder, let me know if I'm wrong:
> Sonny looks completely different now.


 
I was looking at the pictures in the other thread about getting a better topline with the before picture.

The horse in that video looks nothing like that before picture.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I have to say that the other barn was horrible and its great that Jenny moved him! But she didnt have to take the lessons, and could still work him correctly. I know what its liek to have a bad instructor but still... 

Erm I really dont want to get to far into this due to it getting to hot. I think he looked better back then and knew how to use his body. Now he is a little strung out and just doesnt use his hind as good. And he worked very nicely on the bit! 

Jenny I hope you understand im being honest not rude.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Sorry to double post but Spyder im glad we arent the only ones  Jenny again this is just honesty.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

HAF, yeah I know, but he was also fat too lol (putting pictures up in Pictures of the shots that I took of him). Also, when I bought him, I guess I would have been called a beginner rider so collection....topline....I knew not what they were lol.
So, for the longest time I rode him in a saddle that probably didn't fit (the instructor said it would, but she also said that the one Abetta saddle that bought did also...and that definately did NOT). So until I learned things on my own...I was kinda just following what my instructor said blindly. It wasn't until Aprilish that I realized that she really knew nothing


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

ah Okie well I dont think he would have lost it if he got worked in a good frame but I guess Im on both sides about the frame :-\ and I remember you saying that he avoids the bit but fom teh video He looks fine with the bit to me....Either way Hes a gorgeous horse! I hope to see a video of you riding him in saddle and what not soon!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Okay, maybe not.. Sonny, what I saw in the video was a horse that was working beautifully through himself, using his back and hindquarters, and was using a bit just fine..?


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

HorsesAreForever said:


> I have to say that the other barn was horrible and its great that Jenny moved him! But she didnt have to take the lessons, and could still work him correctly. I know what its liek to have a bad instructor but still...
> 
> Erm I really dont want to get to far into this due to it getting to hot. I think he looked better back then and knew how to use his body. Now he is a little strung out and just doesnt use his hind as good. And he worked very nicely on the bit!
> 
> Jenny I hope you understand im being honest not rude.


The reason I took lessons was because I thought she was "the best teacher out there" and I did learn alot from her on basics, but that's it. I had plans to stop for the longest time, but my mom was the normal "give her another chance" and well another chance was her idea of saying "try it for 2 more months" and I got fed up and left and told my mom I will NOT give her another chance (she wanted to have me give her one more chance :evil lol


Yes, I admit, I bought a horse probably when I shouldn't have. I should have gotten more experienced...but guess what? The instructor said I was an intermediate rider so I beleived her. Maybe I was, but I don't think so. 


But, did you guys notice how much he was swishing his tail? That's a sign of unhappyness...and though he did work well, he wasn't happy about it. I personally would rather have a happy horse than one that "looks good". He's building a topline even though I'm not working him on the bit, so he's doing something right. I'm going to slowly work him up where he can stay nicely on the bit, but I want a better bit than what I have now.

EDIT: Oh, yeah I don't believe I said that he avoids the bit...I could be wrong but I don't remember and I knwo he doesn't....but anyways. This is not getting into a heated discussion...no worries
I am unhappy with the bit I have, so I want to get a new bit...I HATE the one I have now. I've hated it for a looooong time but havne't had money to get a new one so that 's why I've never liked working him on the bit


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Okay, my last post on this thread I swear.... but I didn't see an unhappy horse.


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

there is always a learning curve when it's two of you learning together. 

I will say that Sonny seems a lot happier (especially since you have moved him to the new place) and he looks it - he is not skinny or lame or being pushed too hard too quick. You are doing a great job - just keep up the work...when you're ready, reintroduce the bridle and go from there (or not...your horse ;-) ).


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

well as I said...I'm waiting till I get my dream bit (the Parelli cradle bit lol yeah...I've used it on him once and OMG it was a dream to ride in!!!). 
Then I'll use the bit more. Also my reins suck....they are too short and after a while split reins are horrible


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I believe you told me along w/ JDI that he avoided/hated the bit.. what kind of bit do u use.. I have to agree w. JDI he doesnt seem to unhappy his ears were nice and forward. Hoses swish there tail out in the paddock even when there is no flies... I also noticed a few things when u got on him after laura rode him... but Ill leave that alone.


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

_Come On_ you guys!

we only know some of the story...Sonny was there and saw him and felt him as she was riding...that's something none of us have done ;-)


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

I said he disliked the bit, but never that he avoided it. Yes he doesn't like the bit particually....he perfers my western bit actually cause it has sweet iron....but he'll take the other one.
I've been using an eggbutt single jointed snaffle.

But if you noticed though...he was switching at transitions and different cues...not because he just "felt" like it. That 's just something I noticed when I watched the video for the first time.
When I ride him now, he doesn't swish his tail (unless bugs are around) but not to show he's unhappy. 
That's how I personally take a tail swish at a cue...as being unhappy (like seen when some horses are doing high level fancy dressage), but that's just my reading on it and others can take it in other ways too.

But yeah I do plan on doing alot more on the bit work once I get a new bit


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

What I see in the first videos (before you bought him) is a horse that 
doesnt seem unhappy and looks to be working well and nicely on the bit. You can tell a lot from those videos..but hes yours and its your choice. Hes a great horse all the same.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

but he's still swishing his tail at transitions...if that isn't unpleasantness, what is it then? Just curious to knwo what you think of it?  :wink:


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I think tail swishing is just a little thing horses there's a little twitch here and there but and his ears nor body language say "I'm 
mad!" hmm o well Ill leave it alone


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

HAF, it's fine hehe....as I said my mind is too much on the stupid research paper to be too focused on anything else


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

SonnyWimps said:


> but he's still swishing his tail at transitions...if that isn't unpleasantness, what is it then? Just curious to knwo what you think of it?  :wink:


 
I looked again at the video to see this _unpleasant tail swishing_. You call that tail swishing ? Then you haven't really seen tail swishing. I didn't even notice it in the begining.

Maybe this is what I find is the Parelli problem. If the horse cocked his ear to the left more times than to the right I am sure there will be some "game" or something out there under the Parelli system that will "cure" this terrible habit.:shock:


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

lol wow spyder!


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## RedHawk (Jun 16, 2008)

personally i think, if he was unhappy he'd be doing alot more than just a little tail swish, or very rapid, hard (angry-looking, lol) tail swishing. 
i would say that is just a habit, or something he does unconsciously (sort of how we brush hair out of our eyes, and then later do it even though there was nothing there, simply because we're used to doing it?), but i could be wrong, as mentioned before i don't know the horse and as his owner you would be able to judge him the best.


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## Supermane (Sep 23, 2007)

SonnyWimps said:


> I said he disliked the bit, but never that he avoided it. Yes he doesn't like the bit particually....he perfers my western bit actually cause it has sweet iron....but he'll take the other one.
> I've been using an eggbutt single jointed snaffle.


English bits come in sweet iron as well if that's what he likes
Sweet Iron Eggbutt Snaffle Bit with Copper Inlay
EquiShopper - Everything for Horse and Rider - KORSTEEL SWEET IRON EGGBUTT SNAFFLE

But anyway, I don't see anything too different about that saddle other than it has an incredibly deep seat and longish flaps..


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

I don't believe it's just a habit, for he doesn't do it now at all. 

I must say though that I have never seen him happier and listen better since I first rode him. He definately enjoys what he is doing and isn't fighting what I ask. I get no tail swishes (and yes I can feel them) or any defience.

Also on the side note: Lara Delorenzo did Parelli with Sonny before I bought him :wink:

Edit: Yeah I know they come in sweet iron, but I'm not happy with the way Sonny responds to the bit. He listens good, but just something about it...I dunno, it's hard to say


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## sandy2u1 (May 7, 2008)

I didnt watch the videos cause you really werent asking us to critique your horse (i dont think anyway). not that id be good for that job anyway cause I dont know much about that sort of thing. What I do know though..is that their are a lot of horse owners out there who are unhappy with their horses and horses that are unhappy with their owners. It is wonderful that you and your horse are so happy together and having so much fun!!!!! In my opinion, that is the most important thing!


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## moomoo (Feb 21, 2007)

I had a list of stuff to say but I cant be bothered to type it and most has been said. Horses swish their tail over jumps to show they are comfy


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

-- Jenny he swishes his tail here a bit .. I really think its a habit. In the other videos there was a few twitches of his tail... but he looked pretty happy..


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## claireauriga (Jun 24, 2008)

Isn't tail movement a sign of how flexible the horse is through the back, and how tense they are?


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

HAF, that's from the bugs. Both of us were wearing like 10 lbs of bug spray. ONly recently did the bugs go away (after the snow storm). And also the tail swishes were not on transitions or when I was given any cues. And he only did the beginning tail swishes and that's it.
Tail Ringing or Tail Swishing Horses
Horse body language
Horse Body Language - eXtension
I think those links will prove my point (and note it does say in the last one that aggitated tail swishing is different than fly trail swishing).

I think this kinda a pointless discussion since I know my horse better than anyone else here.


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## moomoo (Feb 21, 2007)

> Isn't tail movement a sign of how flexible the horse is through the back, and how tense they are?


I think so since Misty kinda wiggles her tail alot  and flicks it over jumps  Also tail swishyness varies from horse to horse, season to season and how he is feeling that day. If Misty is full of beans she generally swishes her tail more when she is excited :lol:


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

the only time Sonny swishes his tail if he's annoyed, if I'm asking a tiny bit too hard (he only needs the slighest of pressure) or if it's buggy. Never when he's happy or anything like that.

I do notice alot of horses toss their tails while jumping...maybe because they think their tail is going to hit the jump :lol: lol I dunno


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I swish my tail when I'm annoyed too... and I bare my teeth too...

Sonny... he's cute mover...can I have him?


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

lol FP! I agree....but I also bite too!
No, but you can ride him


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## sonnysfirststar (Sep 14, 2008)

sonny in my opinion if your posting threads on here your looking for a variety of ideas and maybe some people are anti NH but they should respect your suggestions the same as you respect everyone else i do agree SOME people who follow parelli are close minded but saying all are is stereotyping and is just plain ingorant! So go on keep posting and if I post a thread and dont see your ideas I will be sad! Sometimes its doing something out of your normal ideas is the solution you need and i think you could offer that to alot of people. So ignore the rude people that try to start arguments and keep posting and sharring your ideas!:lol:


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## BriocheIsLove (Mar 16, 2009)

I agree with Parelli 100% I love his methods and what he teaches about horses and how to interact with them _naturally_. I do understand not everyone agree's with how he teaches, but I dont want to get into that. Parelli's stuff IS indeed expensive. But it is quality stuff. I belive that each and every horse already knows these games and some of the methods because what Pat is teaching is teaching the human to learn to read the horse and communicate with the horse naturally. I dont know why anyone WHOULDNT want to have their horse asking questions and have them follow around at liberty because they _want _to. This indeed baffles me. But I think some of the reasons some people are against it is because they 1) dont understand and 2) belive their methods are the one and only methods to be done just because they have got their horses to do what they want.


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## Horsegma (Dec 1, 2008)

Sorry I haven't read through all the other replies.

My feelings on it are this:

It makes me sad to see other people disrespected number one. Some have been downright cruel/mean and demeaning on some of the other forums when this subject comes up.

If Parelli or (Fill in the Blank Trainer) doesn't agree with you or your methods, there is never a reason to be rude or to throw cheap shots with glee. 

I wish those that don't agree would stay out of the post unless the subject asks directly Anyone want to make fun of Fill In The Blank Trainer. Which would be of course childish.

There have been plenty of times I was really interested in reading about Parelli for an example and learn more and had to stop because of bickering. 

I don't know when it became politically correct to bash him or anyone's methods, especially for those who are having success with those methods or are just intrigued with them like me.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Okay, I just have to say, This:



> But I think some of the reasons some people are against it is because they 1) dont understand and 2) belive their methods are the one and only methods to be done just because they have got their horses to do what they want.


Is the view that really makes me see red. 

Personally, I am not 'against' parelli, persay, but I have seen a lot of negative things come out of people attempting his methods. There is a lot of room for error when learning simply from a DVD, which is what a lot of parelli followers rely on.

I find it insulting that you think because I choose not to follow Parelli, I somehow don't understand what he is doing, or am not able to comprehend it... 

And also the idea that because I don't choose to follow Parelli because I believe it's 'my way or the highway' or I an=m too blind to see that there is more than one way to train a horse...

I have tried many, many different methods of training. I have found, through my experience, my own way of doing things, that incorporates a lot of different methods. 

Also, While I agree that Parelli in some cases is awesome for establishing a bond, for getting a good solid base of groundwork, etc. It is not always practical for the performance disciplines of riding. Therefore, if I want to compete and do well at my chosen disciplines, I need another method of training for these sports. I could not be wholly Parrelli, even if I wanted to.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

What wild_spot said more or less


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

wild_spot said:


> Okay, I just have to say, This:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just find it interesting that the people that ressurect a thread that went to bed some time ago gets brought up...by a Parelli fan :shock: and instead of just simply saying they do Parelli and are happy with it have to slam those that A) left this thread to die, and B)"don't understand it and think their way is the only way.

The problem is that I have found that the description "my way is the only way", "you just don't understand" and "you must be doing something wrong" to be far more descriptive of standard Parelli follower tirades than other disciplines. 

A NH section was created on this site so those that like this way of training can express their views and like minded members know where to go to respond and BriocheIsLove's post simply brought up a lot of feelings that can get out of hand.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I agree Spyder... I thought this thread was dead until I saw it in new posts :s


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

OK, this time we'll just kill it dead.


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