# Conformation is the Question Through a QH breeders eyes



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

So, did you say these two are Morgans? I am supposing that from your avatar name.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

well, I cannot critique them as if the are QH's. I just can't.

I actually like the mare's confo better than the studs. Her shoulder is really big and angles so nicely, her hocks are low and of a good bone/body size ratio. her front legs have nice short canon bones , but the right front , now that I look closely, might be a tiny bit behind at the knee. I mean tiny. the pastern has a slightly odd angle. maybe it's her front heels; they look kind of high. Does she have a clubbed left front?

Anyway, both horses look to be very nicely built, but I prefer the mare.


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## Aestival Morgans (Sep 4, 2012)

No she isn't club footed. That picture was taken shortly after we purchased her and they were growing heel and tow out. She is out of a world champion park stallion, so the farm we bought her from was shoeing her that way. Or might be its the way she is standing. Yes they are Morgans I wasn't trying to be sneaky about that or if I was I really sucked. If you wanted a bigger pic of her http://www.aestivalmorgans.com/Phot... Time to Shine/mareStarboard'sTimetoShine.jpg they have size restrictions on here for photo sizing.

Thanks for the opinion and looking for me.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Ok. 
Why would you want someone to critique them as if they were QH's?
I dont get that logic. Sorry.

I guess, if i had eyes only for qH's I'd say that their front legs are too long, they don't have big enough hips, a bit pigeon brested on the mare, too long of a neck and set too high. you'll struggle to get a good WP gait and headset out of that mare.


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

I don't get it.... I've owned QH's, my boarders are QH's and I own a Morgan right now and it would be like comparing apples and oranges. They're completely different, not just in their build but in attitude and personality. 

My Morgan is the same height as a QH I have boarded with me (both very well bred) and there is zero doubt as to what tack and things go to which horse. I could stuff 2 of my Morgan in the QH's halter, her blanky would look like a tent on him and his girth is probably 12" smaller. Morgans tend to have a more refined head and a finer build while a QH is stockier.


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## With Grace (Oct 20, 2011)

So you want a critique of your Morgans but as if they were QH? Not sure I understand. 

I really like the mare, but I see an English Pleasure or Hunter pleasure type in her rather than WP. I like her long pasterns, but Im kind of biased though, since my Morgan is my Hunter Pleasure horse.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Welcome again AM!
Wow, those are two really nice horses! Your stud (to me) is jaw dropping. Personally I prefer him, what a powerhouse! I love his rounded croup, nice tail set, lovely short back, that neck is fantastic, great bone, just a great looking horse. He's closer to a QH's conformation than your mare's. I couldn't compare him to one though, too high neck/shoulder tie in, but wowzas! 
How is he under saddle?

As far as your mare, she does have some lovely legs! Her neck is lovely, great shoulder, probably a smooth/athletic mover. However, I really don't care for her hind end. Too sharp, maybe a weak hip, probably just the photo. Nothing like a QH.

Better photos would help, how wide are they? The wider the closer to a QH, some morgans these days are just too narrow. 

Either way give me a holler when you want to relieve yourself of these two! I'd gladly throw them in my pasture! (Especially your stud, gelded of course!)


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Well, just checked out your site. Your mare is a very lovely mover!
I'd love to see a video of your stud, all I saw was the Grandsire's?


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## Jore (Dec 4, 2010)

I think they just want an unbiased critique as they feel like if they were to ask the Morgan breeding community, they might get biased thoughts.. so I'm assuming they just want very honest opinions on them.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Your stallion might pass for a QH but for his shoulder that lays back a good bit more than a QH would. He has a lot of hindquarter but is appears to miss a bit in the hip length. He looks pretty good in this photo regardless of breed. 

The mare OTOH not so much. Her shoulder is laid WAY back and her point of shoulder is quite high (why she gets the action she does in the videos.. along with the built up shoes). She is actually too flat in the croup (for a Quarter horse or for my liking) and her hind legs are a bit too long to fit under her correctly (cannons behind are a bit long). Her neck is too long and more Arab looking that Quarterhorse. She lacks sufficient hip and length of croup to be a Quarterhorse and I find her length of croup short for any breed. She is also back at the knee.. and this is a fault I do not like at all as it can lead to unsoundess. The back at the knee shows up in the website photos as well.


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## Aestival Morgans (Sep 4, 2012)

The reason I ask such an odd question is I am looking for any information I can get about my breeding. When I talk to my friends in the morgan community they tend to gravitate more towards some of my other horses with really flat hips and extremely open sholders. I am not just looking for a critique but for a why you would want that part of the horses conformation changed. I come from a world of flat croups and Open shoulders and arched necks and I want to know the advantage of having a slightly less open shoulder or any change. I go back and look at black and white photos of morgan and quarter horse stallions and see very little difference up until about the 60's then there is a radical shift to more of the quarter horse we know today (kinda like the shift in the 80's to 90's in the morgan breed to more of a saddlebred look). I am trying to get information is all. I am trying to voice my question with out looking bias. I like both breeds but I have drifted more into morgans because it was easier to find the type of horse I was looking for. I decided to post on here because it is so hard to get answers out of people face to face. Well I am rambling so I will stop there. Eric


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Well Eric, if they want SB's let them have them!
I do love the looks of your stud, please keep the classic alive! I'll be shopping you one of these days if you do. I love the classic form of anything, especially horses. What people have done to the TW's, and the foundation bred QH's (halter) is a shame. Especially the Appaloosas, I've always wanted a nice one for myself but more often than not I go look and find a Quarter Horse with spots!

Kuddos to you and do your breed a favor and protect it!


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

The Quarterhorse was a horse designed out of a mix of range mustang and Thoroughbred. Originally small and with a lot of "cow" and very fast at short distances. the rounder hind quarter and steeper croup allows the horse to curl back over himself to cut a cow. The less open shoulder allows the horse to lower his head more readily to face the challenge of a cow. The large hind quarters allow for a solid stop at the end of a heading or calf rope as well as a powerful sprint after that same calf or cow to get her roped (or turned). 

An open shoulder is usually coupled with a higher head set.. and a cow can get under the neck (more easily). A flat croup interferes with curling the hind end under the horse to make a fast turn or a fast get away. There is less power in starts, stops and turns in a flatter croup. 

The Quarterhorse has changed.. becoming more refined and many have NO "cow." The halter Quarterhorse has developed into an animal that has too little bone, too small feet, too large a body and is bow legged behind (and often camped under). These are faults.. not something to breed for!!! 

The Morgan has gone through a similar transition becoming a smaller version of the American Saddlebred (open shoulder, arched neck, high head carriage, flat croup). 

Not sure this is any help or what you are looking for. It is the what and why that I see. JMO. No one need agree.


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## SaddleOnline (Oct 20, 2011)

love love love the stud! He has a much more classic look about him, his angles are superb (maybe a tiny bit more in the hind end, but overall good) and he looks like a tight sturdy package, just the way a morgan should be. The mare, like you said, you can tell she has a more park horse type breeding- her shoulder is a little outrageous, but I bet it makes her super fancy in the SS ring! Same goes for the sickle hocks- something you would want if you are breeding park horses, if you are going for classic, she isn't very close to that ideal. 

Both are beautiful though!


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## Aestival Morgans (Sep 4, 2012)

She was just to pretty to pass up we have not had a foal out of her yet but (fingers crossed) she in in foal to Irish Raven. Shine (the mare) defiantly hails from park lines her great grand sire on top and bottom sides of her pedigree is Noble Flaire. But yet again Raven's sire is a park champion and I believe his mothers sire was a park stallion also (Waseeka's Moonshot). Shine ranks about number 5 on my personal list of my mare band. But I put her on here because most people like her. My favorite mare out of our little band is out of Stonecroft Byzantine I like more of feminine mare than what shine is.









And the kids like her way more.


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## Aestival Morgans (Sep 4, 2012)

Elana said:


> An open shoulder is usually coupled with a higher head set.. and a cow can get under the neck (more easily). A flat croup interferes with curling the hind end under the horse to make a fast turn or a fast get away. There is less power in starts, stops and turns in a flatter croup.
> 
> The Quarterhorse has changed.. becoming more refined and many have NO "cow." The halter Quarterhorse has developed into an animal that has too little bone, too small feet, too large a body and is bow legged behind (and often camped under). These are faults.. not something to breed for!!!
> 
> The Morgan has gone through a similar transition becoming a smaller version of the American Saddlebred (open shoulder, arched neck, high head carriage, flat croup)..


thank you for your insite into croup and shoulder angle. I did like what you said about the morgans I am so glad that they caught a saddlebred in the breed some time back, not because I want anyone kicked out of the breed but to show that to win you needed that look. After crowning a half saddle bred world champion it changed the way the judges judge or atleast for now it did.

I do have to disagree with the origins of the quarter horse breed.

I think most people put the cart before the horse. I know when you read of the breed origins you feel they started a breed and in a couple short years it just blossomed. What I have found is that in 1930 the horse population was 13,510,839 and the number of registered horses was 67,378 with over 33,000 being Percherons. Now if that doesn't give someone an idea when only half a percent of horses in the us were registered to start a registry I don't know what would? I am not trying to pick on the Quarter horse. I don't think it really matters how the breed started or what bloodlines were involved. I believe there was a real void and I am glad it was filled in the 40's. That is what makes America great, supply and demand, the supply was there. I remember talking to my grandpa, before he passed away, who owned a ranch 20 miles north of North Platte Nebraska about when the registry came through in the late 40's early 50's and wanted him to register his horses. He told them no way he was paying $.25 per horse for a piece of paper. They said he could register everything but his drafts. So technically he never owned any quarter horses but he did breed to papered stallions once in a while. I hope you don't take this the wrong way this is what I have found about the origins. It's not that I haven't ridden or researched different horse breeds I just wanted to know why certain conformational traits are desirable for certain individuals. I like numbers and I like history but I find with history you have to be careful because all history is someones viewpoint. And everyone has an opinion.

I will leave "cow" alone and my feeling about cow horses coming west for only my close personal friends.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I never meant to imply the the origins of the QH took a few simple years to develop. I was in the breed for a number of years (though the Thoroughbred is really my main interest). The foundations of the breed took a long while to come about but the horses started from Feral Stock when the horses still had a lot of Spanish Barb look about them. The horses were small and short coupled.. rugged and range bred. Look at some of CM Russel's drawings....

This was in the middle 1800's when cattle farming started in the west and carried through to after the Civil war to the brief period of cattle drives.. to ranches and eventually to the present. The small horses that were working animals were crossed to Thoroughbreds (look at the influence of Three Bars) and so the foundation began. 

You are correct.. not every good ranch horse or bred ranch horse was registered.. but eventually it all came together when some of the large ranches bought into breed development (remember years ago that a horse with the Running W of the King Ranch was a significant "find" if you obtained one!). 

History is always an interpretation. Always. Even by those who lived it. 

Things have changed for the breed.. horses are used less and less in real work and more and more for sport and competition. BTW this is also true of a lot of dog breeds (especially mine.. the German Shepherd). Most started because you had a good one that worked well.. so you bred that one to another that worked well with the idea of producing more animals that could work well.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I agree with Elana's assessment. I am very drawn to your stud though, he looks like a very solid horse. I'd welcome him in my pasture. I know nothing about Morgans aside from the one Morgan mare owned by a friend of my grandfather that he bred for them to his son of Poco Dell many, many years ago. The resulting filly turned out to be a gorgeous level headed mare that could really work a cow and looked beautiful pulling a cart.


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## Aestival Morgans (Sep 4, 2012)

I guess what I'm trying to say is now days we breed as a luxury and we try to think of past horse owners with our beliefs and thought processes. I don't believe it was a luxury horses were a necessity. A Ranch owner in the late 1800 would have brought in any stallion that he thought would fix his mares....regardless of breed. I do agree that there is a ton of Thoroughbred in the Quarter Horse but was it out of necessity or want to use Thoroughbred Stallions? I think if those same ranchers were alive today they would not go and get mustang mares only to try to fix with registered stallions I believe they would start with the best they could find and were available now if all they had available or could afford were mustangs they made do and bred out imperfections. What i'm trying to ask (and I know no one can really answer it just a thought for the day) did they breed the mustang mares (the cheapest most readily available mares) to Thoroughbred Stallions (largest registery larger then all the other light breed registries put together) out of standards or necessity?









Elana you have been great to talk to thank you so much for taking time to share your research and opinion with me!! I do agree with you about dogs, I am an Australian Shepard fan and it seems most just get to catch a Frisbee any more people don't even refer to them as working dogs.

MHFoundation Quarters be careful saying you liked a cross between a quarter horse and a morgan....you are going to get both sides mad at you. I have only bred on QH mare with Raven and I think it look better than the mare it was out of. I have talked to alot of people with crosses like that and all I have heard have been happy people. We live in an age where in order for me to be right you have to be wrong so alot of inter mingling of ideas has been lost. Even in the morgan breed we have atleast two factions, and there is always the english vs western faction. I can only imagine in a breed the size of the QH how many factions there must be. Like buck says the horse world can be a clicky one but we don't go for clicks around here.

Again I want to restate I know breeds are a touchy subject please don't hate me for sharing my research and opinion. If I say something wrong drive up to Idaho and we will go on a trail ride or more cows and talk about it til we are friends again.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I'm in the barn on my phone, will post more later. Interesting stuff to ponder for sure! 

If both sides end up mad at me, oh well. I don't do cliques either  She was a nicely put together mare that served the purpose she was created for. I can appreciate nice horse flesh regardless of what's behind it. I already take heat from my grandfather, he's a very dyed in the wool working qh man and I now own the family farm he started and did the ultimate sacrilege (in his mind) when I bought myself a Hanoverian to ride for fun. One of his friends stopped in and saw my big mare in the pasture and told me "That's the ugliest qh I've ever seen." I just giggled and continued doing chores.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Aestival Morgans (Sep 4, 2012)

When people pick on my horses I just tell them they are QH's from a hundred years in the future.....when they look at me weird I say if the standards keep changing like they have been


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I was a dairy farmer and had grade Holstein cattle. I bred my best cows to the best bulls I could find that offset the worse features of my cows and added some production.. but since the cows produced well (had a herd avg in the top 3% in the State) I was more interested in a structurally sound cow that would last physically. 

I think that farmers and ranchers bred dogs and horses and cattle etc. the same way. They used the best they had.. and if the best horse was from a feral herd they used that horse. 

The thing to recall in this is that the feral horses of the middle 1800's had mostly Barb blood and were really good horses. The Native Americans used them and while small, the outlasted the Government troop horses and were faster. The US Government actually put Draft Horse Stallions in the feral herds to water down the stock to something slower.. (per Dr. Deb Bennett's books and literature). The result is what we see today in the feral herds.. an occasional nice one (and there are!) and a lot of not so nice ones. 

From my understanding and past reading, the Thoroughbred was added to the Quarterhorse to add speed and a more consistent type. Remember.. in those days there were no horse trailers, shipped semen, TV and so forth. That same little ranch horse was often called upon to be in a horse race on Saturday night. 

Men and not a few women defined themselves by their horses! Status was to have a really good horse... it was prestigious to have a Thoroughbred in a place (Western US) where getting such a thing was rare. Those horses came from the East and some even from England. English Blood was known.. such as Imported Messenger who influenced both the American Thoroughbred AND the American Standardbred! 

Horses were, in those days, the Rolls Royce, BMW, etc. of today. Most of the population was relegated to something much less as a ride.. and on some occasions, those "lesser" rides showed up at a competition and cleaned house.. and deals were struck and horses were bred.. sometimes in secret. 

Most American breeds of horses go back to some unknown mare or stallion... and is many cases it was known... but not shared. Justin Morgan was such a horse... as was Hambletonian... 

Interesting in your list of statistics is the number of Cleveland Bays and Suffolk Punch.. both now rare breeds because their usefulness has gone by the wayside. No one needs a Rangey tall Carriage horse that breeds both true to color and type to make matched teams and 4 in hands.. and no one needs a nice small compact draft horse like the Suffolk. I always liked both these breeds. I suppose the Cleveland bay was replaced in today's world by the more athletic Warmbloods and the faster racing Standardbred. The Suffolk just simply is not used.. always sorrel and not flashy.. so is not favored for any replacement 'sport.' 

My breed of dog is the German Shepherd. I had one that herded cattle on my dairy farm.. and that dog had me fall in love with the breed. Sadly, that was years ago and the breed has segued into three breeds (American show, German Show and Working lines)... none of which are what that first dog was.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

And I agree with MHFoundation.. I do not care the breed or the lines UNLESS I am breeding. A good horse is a good horse (your mare is). 

When breeding I have been taught a less than stellar individual out of Stellar lines is better to use for breeding than a Stellar Individual out of mediocre lines. Niatross (the famous Standardbred Pacer) was such an animal. He was syndicated and an entire upstate NY farm was built around him... and he was a dud stud. Farm was foreclosed on I believe....


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## Aestival Morgans (Sep 4, 2012)

we always say look in the mines for diamonds. you can find diamonds in the rough but there more in the mine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

LOVE the black one!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Elana said:


> The Quarterhorse was a horse designed out of a mix of range mustang and Thoroughbred. Originally small and with a lot of "cow" and very fast at short distances. the rounder hind quarter and steeper croup allows the horse to curl back over himself to cut a cow. The less open shoulder allows the horse to lower his head more readily to face the challenge of a cow. The large hind quarters allow for a solid stop at the end of a heading or calf rope as well as a powerful sprint after that same calf or cow to get her roped (or turned).
> 
> An open shoulder is usually coupled with a higher head set.. and a cow can get under the neck (more easily). A flat croup interferes with curling the hind end under the horse to make a fast turn or a fast get away. There is less power in starts, stops and turns in a flatter croup.
> 
> ...


The QH was actually designed out of some TB and farm horses in Virginia WAAAAY before QH's moved out west. I would not be surprised if there was some Morgan in those QH's because the Morgans and QH's developed pretty much around the same time. The QH's were developed as race horses first....then once the west was settled, the ranch horse aspect came in. But the QH was around before that.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I would prefer to buy the stallion if I were looking for a good riding horse.
I have had a lot of people ask me if my welsh C x TB mare is a morgan, there are similarities in looks and temperament. The english settlers brought welsh cobs over with them as they were small strong horses capable of plowing & clearing a small parcel of land, looking smart to pull the family trap to church and a good riding horse. Crossed with a TB you get something faster and more refined
Its a shame that the suffolk Punch lost popularity against the shires and clydesdales etc - they are more compact, not feathered and have a nice head - they are a good cross with a TB
A lot of breeds are losing out by a demand to have some particular feature - small pretty head, flashy action. huge quarters etc and the rest of the conformation gets thrown out of the window.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Aestival Morgans said:


> I uploaded two photos one of my Black Stud that is 15.2 hands and one of a brown mare I have that is 15.1 hands. I know my requirements of what I am looking for when it comes to conformation, but I want to know more about the quarter horse breed. I have tried to talk to people locally, about conformation, but to no avail (I don't think they know quite what they are looking for). And I have done a ton of internet reading about quarter horse conformation. I want an honest and ADULT conversation about this. I know when breed to breed conversations arise some feelings can get in the way of honesty and reality. *So critique away as if there were two quarters at a sale you were bidding on*. Oh and he bites cows like a border collie. Sorry had to throw that in there.


 
Well, because these are Morgans, but I am supposed to look at this as if I was looking at QHs...which means I'm looking for type (no matter what the breed is), it would be the black stud hands down. As he shows the classic type of a Morgan. He is extremely typey and I like him ALOT. The brown mare shows "outside" influence of another style, a modern style...that is not classic to the breed. She's more ASB or Arab looking...longer in the body, more swan like neck, *much *flatter croup (all characteristic more towards ASB and Arabian). Relate this to QH's and what you have is comparing a shorter, stockier, short cannon boned, shorter backed QH...to a taller, reedier, longer bodied, plainer headed Appendix with heavy TB influence. (which in QH terms would relate to be more TB looking.)


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