# The Horse Market in General



## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Heh. I can't even get $8000 for a registered, trained reining and cutting stallion. He isn't a national champ, but he does a pretty good job. I haven't the funds for more than open shows.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Prices are much lower here in Ontario as well. I don't see how anyone can breed and raise a foal and sell it as a 2 yr old just started and make any money. The last horse I bought (Nov 2013) was very reasonable for the quality and training. I would think a started horse with decent conformation should be worth $3000 but I know around here they are selling for less than that.
A trainer's time has to be worth something.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

I haven't kept up, but a few years ago I read an article that was basically showing that the various breed registries were registering about half as many horses now as pre slaughter ban.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Handy, sane, and sound ranch horses are going for $4000 to $8000 to people who don't need them, want them, and can't "make" them.

My other interest, polo, doesn't follow real life, so is out of the figuring of the market.

Now, the horse I want for my daughter and grandsons... *sigh* I can't find, and if I could, I wouldn't be able to afford.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I don't know. On one hand I think it would be good for people to at least break even on a horse they raise. On the other hand, it's nice to be able to go out and get a trail horse for $1000 or less. 

I kind of feel like horses are a labor of love and it's more about loving and enjoying the animals then what they bring in cold hard cash. But I'm weird that way, I think of them as my pets, not livestock. I know my horses will never make me a dime and I am okay with that. I have them because I enjoy them not because they will ever make money. I know going in that they are a money pit. :lol:

I don't like to think the other 1/2 the horses that the breeders aren't breeding would otherwise be going to slaughter. I kind of feel the market will seek it's own level and we shouldn't be breeding excess horses just to slaughter them. 

If horses aren't bringing much money, people will breed less and then soon there will be less horses on the market, prices will rise again and things will seek their own level. It will just take a little time for things to balance out.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

It's still pitiful around here. Most folks don't even try to sell anymore and if you do see one advertised it's not for much. Last ad I saw in our local paper was for 12 year old trail broke mare and her 5 year old trail broke gelding + all their tack for $1200.00. No pictures so I don't know what kind of shape they were in.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

In my area for a 'basic' horse that's been started right and treated right I will consent to spend about $1,000. However, most horses around here I would only pay $100 for if I was feeling generous. I'm kinda with trailhorserider. I suppose the good thing I've seen in this awful economy has been that the people who get into horse training/trading are more into it for the enjoyment of it as a career than those who just jumped in to make a quick buck. used to be when I went to a horse trader I would be going to a shady person who conned, and had deplorably conditions for their animals. Now when I've gone I've seen actual horsemen who have healthy and sane horses. (Well.... I see this type more freely than I used to lol)

The negatives are that these people who are darn good horsemen and deserve to make money off of this, don't, and have to make a bad situation as good as they can. I hope eventually it will go back to being a profitable industry.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

I may have been misunderstood, or I am misunderstanding, but from the breeder perspective, those 1/2 of the colts not being registered aren't being sold for slaughter instead, they aren't being bred or born in the first place. There are loads of very nice broodmares around the country right now that are open (not pregnant) simply because the breeders know they won't get a reasonable price for the colts, so they don't breed for the colts.
Despite what many would have you believe, most pros in the breeding business are ethical and careful horsepeople. It is the "backyard" breeders that we have issues with. Where the pro breeder is trying to propagate the top 5% of the horses out there, the backyard breeder tends to be propagating the lowest 5% of the horses out there. And their actual knowledge of genetics and care of horses is lacking to say the least. These are the guys who are still breeding anything and everything they can.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Another interesting thing, is it is cheaper to buy a trained horse than to pay for training on a colt. 

I payed for training for my colt because he was born here and I love him and want to ride him and want him to have a bright future. I'm not a trainer myself, so I sent him out for training. I've got over $2000 training in a green-broke, grade trail horse. 

So, if I were to buy a horse (vs. my colt who came as a stowaway inside a mare I bought), I would definitely just buy a trained one. When I can get a trained one for $500-$2000 it doesn't make much sense for someone on a budget to buy a youngster. I can't even buy a month's worth of training for $500 and I sometimes see horses available in that price range that sound like decent riding horses.

But I trail ride, so I'm not set on a certain breed, age, color, gender, etc. So as long as the horse rides well and I like him, I can be flexible in what I buy. Someone wanting a horse for a specific discipline will have to pay more for the type of horse they want. There will always be more of a market for specialized horses in popular disciplines.

To me, training is mostly what I'm paying for in a horse. We once paid $2000 for a nicely trained BLM Mustang. He was the perfect horse and worth every penny. More actually. He was a once-in-a-lifetime horse. So the difference between a $125 BLM Mustang and a $2000+ BLM Mustang is a good temperment and good training.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

around here{ speaking about AQHA/APHA breeds as that is what i'm familiar with} generally a good looking papered horse that is going under saddle $2500 & up something that has more specialized training of course brings more,depending on level of training,conformation,accomplishments,pedigree etc.:wink:


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

DanielDauphin said:


> I may have been misunderstood, or I am misunderstanding, but from the breeder perspective, those 1/2 of the colts not being registered aren't being sold for slaughter instead, they aren't being bred or born in the first place.


That's how I understood it too. I think I just didn't word my post correctly.

I would rather they not be born at all then end up as "surplus" horses at a slaughter house. 

As for backyard breeders, it's kind of like cats and dogs, I don't know if you can ever stop ignorant people completely. But maybe if their horses don't bring any money they will only breed for themselves and not to sell. :-x 

What's funny around my area though is there really doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to pricing. I've seen really nice horses go for cheap and some overpriced horses (think pretty major conformation flaws) sell for $2500 or better. It's really quite amazing. The only thing I can come up with is that the buyers don't know any better and they think if the horse is priced high it must be quality. :shock:


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Unfortunately for sellers, at this point in time it is a buyer's market. Great if you are looking to buy a good horse without spending $5K, not so great if you've got a good horse that, 10 years ago, would have been a $15K horse but now you're struggling to get $5K.

For me, it really doesn't effect me much, thankfully. I don't buy horses usually (most of my current horses were free or extremely cheap because they were bought unhandled) and often when I sell, I am more interested in the horse going to a good home than I am in making money....with the exception of one, whom I was exceedingly happy to get $800 for from the meat man LOL.

I do feel sorry for those trainers who used to supplement their income by getting 1 or 2 flip horses each month. You just can't do that anymore, spend $500 to get a decent prospect, feed and train him for 2-3 months at a cost of $800-$1000 a month, then try to sell him in a market where decent, green broke horses just like him are going for $1000 or less; have to take in 2 extra customer horses just to make up for the loss you take on your "flip".


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

I Actually think this whole topic is quite interesting. In Australia things are probably quite different from the US but i am at a bit of a loss at what to think of the horse market. 

I feel that as the market is, a polarization is occurring. There are those that will pay for a registered, or even an unregistered purpose bred horse, even if a little basic, and those who won't. The others are end up getting OTTBs which there are a lot of here.

The effect of this and such I feel means that less people buy from breeders which in turn forces the price of well bred horses up to pay for costs, therefore further polarizing the market.

However the affordability of purchasing horses is at odds with the cost of upkeep, leaving many people eager to purchase a horse but unable to care for it. When selling my OTTB with many problems clearly stated I had so many people willing to buy her who were total beginners. They thought buying a horse is cheaper than lessons and they can learn themselves. If the cost of horses were higher, you'd eliminate the people who aren't capable of caring for one.

But what would this mean? Already people in the horse industry are struggling having to charge high prices to cope with relatively low demand. And high extra costs. In Australia I think this is especially true with one of the highest costs of living in the world. With a minimum age of around $18 an our, the cost of board and training goes up. If horses were more affordable more people would have them, with more business things would be cheaper.

And then you get to breeders. I'm into animal rights, and most people don't understand this, but I am a huge fan of purpose breeding. For horses, dogs, cats etc. I think the best way to ensure animal welfare and rider safety is by having responsible horse breeders and trainers. So does that mean horses should be cheaper so that more people can buy off breeders?

Right now going the breeder route is pretty tough. A breeder probably needs to make at least 4 grand for a ypungester to break even, depending on a range of decisions and costs. For a three year old they'd be looking at 5-6000. Then there is breaking, which these days costs around 2-3000. Leaving a broken youngester to cost a breeder 7-10,000 before even making a profit. The average person isn't willing to spend that. So how can we expect people to support that industry?

I'm always hearing about breeders closing down and it makes me sad and it makes me worry about the future of the industry. With small time breeders closing the cost of the average purpose bred horse will go up, creating a system that drives out good breeding and brings in a system of dependence on cast offs from the racing industries.

So there is no point to this post, other than sharing my thoughts and uncertainties of the market.

Please excuse spelling and grammar - on my phone.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

Around here, the biggest problem in the last 15 years hasn't been a glut of cheap horses (there have always been inexpensive horses), but that people are still very uneasy with the economy/their jobs and are just not spending on horses, and that holding on to horses has become so much more expensive, e.g. feed, vet, etc. 15 years ago you could breed 3-4 nice papered mares a year and have a very good chance of selling all the weanlings for at least $3500 and make some $$s. Sometimes you could sell them before they were even on the ground. If they didn't all sell, you would hang on to them, use them as brood mares, or put some training in them and could sell them (still roughly in the $3500-$4500 price range) as green broke 3 year olds or use them as lesson, trail ride, hay/carriage ride, or lease horses, or barter them for services or equipment. Of course, every day you hang on to a horse that it is not generating enough revenue it is just chipping away at your profit. Since you can typically get 15-20 good years of work out of a horse, at some point in an extended slump, from an overall business point of view, you just stop breeding for sale, try to at least recover the investment in your stock, or just get them off your books (e.g. give away older horses to good homes as companions). Selling horses at $500-$1000 is simply just a financial loser.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

At least in the U.S., much of what is happening in the horse market may be related to the economy in general. As the middle class is dwindling in numbers, fewer people feel they can afford to own horses.

I heard that, when Henry Ford began what became his automobile empire, he felt that paying his workers a descent wage enabled them to buy the product he was trying to sell. Regrettably, this no longer seems to be the prevailing economic philosophy.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

trailhorserider said:


> What's funny around my area though is there really doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to pricing. I've seen really nice horses go for cheap and some overpriced horses (think pretty major conformation flaws) sell for $2500 or better. It's really quite amazing. The only thing I can come up with is that the buyers don't know any better and they think if the horse is priced high it must be quality. :shock:


Isn't it pretty much the same everywhere, though? Cadillac vs Chevy, Rolex vs Timex, designer jeans vs Levis, Apple vs anybody else... Or purebred dogs vs pound puppies. Lots of people are willing to pay for the brand name and associated status, even when the goods are the same, or even lesser quality.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I think an element is how few people know what a quality horse is or how a horse is different than a dog. A lot of people think they have spent a lot of money (and maybe they have) for a quality horse. That horse inevitably has a laundry list of issues. I don't think a market full of quality 500$ dollar horses is necessarily bad. The problem is that there are quality horses for 500 dollars and total junk horses for 800. The issue to me is not the cost of the horses but the fact that price is not correlated with value.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Call your horse a "Dressage Prospect" and you can add a couple of zeros to the price.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Beling said:


> Call your horse a "Dressage Prospect" and you can add a couple of zeros to the price.


OO! OO! Think that would get my boy sold? He already does reining, so just a step sideways.....


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## Canterklutz (Jul 20, 2012)

Beling said:


> Call your horse a "Dressage Prospect" and you can add a couple of zeros to the price.


If your horse can flop over a 2ft jump like a fish it's a jumping prospect. :wink:


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

Reminds me of a horse I saw once that was sold (for a lot of money) as a made hunter under saddle for young teens. This horse cleaned up around high level circuit. They all loved his headset. The problem was he had arthritis in his neck so bad that he could not physically move his neck much from that position. They had to raise his water and food so he could eat and drink.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Actually, my boy can go over a jump that size looking like Pegasus. (we trailride over logs)


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## EponaLynn (Jul 16, 2013)

Woodhaven said:


> Prices are much lower here in Ontario as well. I don't see how anyone can breed and raise a foal and sell it as a 2 yr old just started and make any money. The last horse I bought (Nov 2013) was very reasonable for the quality and training. I would think a started horse with decent conformation should be worth $3000 but I know around here they are selling for less than that.
> A trainer's time has to be worth something.


I'm curious Woohaven, what are they selling for in Ontario these days? I'm from Ont. and might return!


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

What exactly IS the market? How many of us continue to keep/care for/train horses year after year? Not that many, There was a post today on a thread that was from 2007, and several people who made comments are on that thread are no longer visiting this forum. I suggest that they dropped into horses and have now dropped OUT of them, again. I have noticed this on more than one old thread.
Price is never a guarantee of a good horse. Training and connections with someone you TRUST is.
Plus, as one who has owned/trained for 30 years (in June) I can tell you that new horse people buy a lot of dumb, un-neccessary accessories for their horse and spend money where they don't need to. And, they usually buy a horse with baggage.
_(Often they DON'T spend money where they should, as well, like on their health.)_
Horses have always been a pricey hobby.
Just like the country, the horse market is in a depression and it's a BUYER's market. 
Squirrelfood, I'm pretty sure that your boy is worth every penny that you want for him. People don't realize that when you buy fully trained, you are saving yourself from time in the ER, and it's cheaper.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

When I get calls for a $500 kid's horse or husband horse, I ask, "Is that all their life is worth to you?" and people act all insulted. But it's true, the trained horse costs more but is your life insurance policy. So, no, I don't think a market full of $500 horses is a good thing. And it just comes down to dollars and sense, I can't afford to BREED for that amount, never mind train, show and put miles on and SELL for that amount after. At least, I can't when I paying $3000 for a stud fee, $2500 in vet costs, and feed being up and expensive the way it is. Then add 2 or 3 months training to break the colt out when it's time and we're looking at another $3000. Better for me to never breed another horse than to have to sell at $500.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

The 'perfect' market would be one where the seller isn't _totally_ losing out on money (meaning that they are getting some kind of return for their time and investment), but someone just getting into horses can get their hobby/trail horse and tack for less than 3 or 4 thousand (not including board and/or lessons). If regular saddle horses were priced high, the market would fall apart, as the vast majority of horse owners have them for pleasure or hobby and are showing little to none. I would be very sad if I saw a day when someone had to pay between 3 and 5 thousand just for a solid trail horse. But I also agree that it's not a great thing to see top level show horses going for pennies of what their former value is.

Considering all of that though, the US economy is terrible and our dollar is not worth near what it used to be. Nobody can afford high priced horses, most people can't afford horses period.


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## bkylem (Sep 21, 2013)

I have been offered several horses from friends that have ranged from free to $1,000. All similar, but primarily being sold simply because the owner cannot afford the upkeep and the unexpected vet bills which can arise when you least expect. It is for those same reasons that I have regretfully turned down those opportunities. The economy is better, but still very shaky and job security is almost nonexistent in many cases. I want a horse so badly, but I have to be realistic with my own finances. It's a big and long commitment. I would hate to ever be in a position that I couldn't care properly for my horse. Sigh . . .

My best to all.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Let me throw this out there from the standpoint of a long-time breeder: 

Losing the local (and well-priced) slaughter market did more to hurt serious breeders than anything else that has happened. It also did more to lower the level of care of the horses left that were 'just saddle horses'. It did not greatly affect most show or competitive level horses as much. Then, the hit the economy took accompanied by rising unemployment and the foreclosure crisis made a bad (pre 2008) problem even worse. Kind of the perfect storm for the horse market.

Let me explain it a little more for those of you that were not in the horse business in the 80s and earlier. From the mid 80s through the mid to late 90s, a '#1 slaughter horse' was worth $1000.00, sometimes more. [For those of you that do not know, a # 1 is a fat horse, not draft breeding, that has a crease down its butt and weighs 1200# or more.] Like every other business going, auction prices determine what most horses bring even if they are sold privately. The TB sales at Keenland and Saratoga set the TB market prices. The sales at Fort Worth set the cutting horse market prices. High end performance horses bring whatever someone is willing to pay -- always have and always will. But, auctions have always determined what prospects and breeding stock are worth.

So, going back to the auction sales -- The slaughter price is what every horse entering the ring is automatically worth. So if a slaughter horse was worth $1000.00, every full sized horse that was not thin, was set in at that price. In 2005 and before, one had to pay from $1500.00 to $2500.00 at a cheap auction (not a high end consignment sale with a catalog) for any 'project horse'. I had a list of people that I knew would always be in the market for a good project horse. I used to buy any that I found with good breeding, color and good conformation. I re-sold them for the sale ticket + $100.00, mostly to friends and people I knew really well. I was never a 'trader' and never made much money doing it, but people knew I had a good eye for prospects and a lot of friends asked my to look out for one for them. This project market completely dried up after the US slaughter ban and that was BEFORE the economy took the hit. There was no longer that safely net available if a horse proved to be a problem and was not going to make a good or sound 'using horse'.

When the prospect market and slaughter market crashed, the broke horse market just kept going down and down with it. Then, what we started to see were very thin and poorly cared for horses. When a slaughter market was there for a safety net, many people just took a LOT better care of their horses. When the difference between a fat horse and a thin horse was $600.00, people kept them fat. When one got sick or hurt, they called the Vet. When that market crashed, they just kicked them out to pasture and said they just had to live or die without the $300.00 Vet bill. I had people tell me many times that they were not putting a $300.00 Vet bill in a horse that could be replaced by a sound, healthy horse for less than $300.00. The mixed practice Vet 20 miles from me said his horse business dropped by 75%. Just like his cattle business has picked up now because of the high value of cattle, his horse business declined. This may not be 'right' but it is a fact.

The second thing that greatly depressed the breeding business and the market for 'good' prospects and green broke and started horses is the marketing of 'rescue horses', often times with high-pressure tactics. I would really like to know how many people get their saddle horse prospect as a 'rescue' rather than buying a nice prospect from a serious breeder. Any one that thinks this has not greatly depressed the market for legitimate, sometime long-time breeders is sadly mistaken. This alone, has put many legitimate breeders out of business. What is also sad about this is that so many 'rescues' never make a good saddle horse or have serious conformation or soundness issues. There is a reason many of them are 'unwanted horses'!

I carried several broodmares for several years without breeding them. I probably should have just sold them like everyone else did, but I have always been able to breed a lot better prospects than I could buy. Several of my mares traced back to the original mare that put me in the business in 1966. She produced 7 AQHA point earners that had records in almost every AQHA event out there. She produced roping horses that went to the National Finals. She produced show horses that went to the World. I still have 2 granddaughters and several of her great granddaughters. I could never replace them, so I carried them, even through 4 years of terrible droughts. I know when they are gone, the blood is gone. Now, I am breeding most of them again because we have seen a huge up-turn in the market in the past year. But, I doubt it will ever be as good as when there was a $1000.00 'floor price'.

We have kept a good market for really 'broke, broke' horses all along. The market for started horses, green broke horses and young horses, even when riding well, went down the tubes. But, the safe, sane, solid, 'honest' saddle horse that anyone can ride has always had a good market and always will.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Really well done Cherie! I had my thoughts scrambling all over the place and just could not articulate how the end of slaughter basically dropped the horse market right through the basement. Without a bottom line, we've floundered ever since. Without a baseline, where do you price that prospect? The fact is, just because his daddy can command a $3K stud fee, doesn't mean Jr. will EVER amount to his father. Of course we all hope he'll surpass his father, horse folks are eternal optimists after all, but in the real world like as not the next generation may not be quite as good as the first. 

It used to be that I could buy or breed a youngster, feed him up for a summer and start him the next winter and sell him in the spring. Slooooowly, I see a little of that coming along now, but the green horse market is still in deep water. 

That elusive kid's horse or "husband safe" horse can just about command his weight in gold, but it takes years to make one of those and KNOW the training will stick no matter what. When everybody wants all that for $500.......how long can you realistically last?


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

It is so ironic. While the anti-slaughter 'do-goodies' think they have done horses such a great favor, what they have really done is insure that the horses that do go to slaughter have to endure a 1500 mile or longer trip. Add to that the hundreds of thousands of horses in people's back yards and back pastures that receive far poorer care than they did when they were worth more and you see that the BAD 'unintended consequences' of stopping US Slaughter far outweighs the good done. Frankly, I have not seen ANY good that has come from stopping US slaughter.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

What bothers me....and I am probably just rambling nonsensically, as usual....is the apparent internet phenomenon where someone posts multiple things about their horse.....it bucks, it bolts, won't canter, then, it colics or founders, or is lame, and THEN, it gets sold, and another horse bought. How do these horses get sold? 

What a wonderful explanation of the slaughter market, Cherie! We are constantly explaining that to people who say they are so glad there is no more....


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

greentree said:


> What bothers me....and I am probably just rambling nonsensically, as usual....is the apparent internet phenomenon where someone posts multiple things about their horse.....it bucks, it bolts, won't canter, then, it colics or founders, or is lame, and THEN, it gets sold, and another horse bought. How do these horses get sold?


Well, as the saying goes, "There's a sucker born every minute".

Too many buyers just jump right into ownership without doing their due diligence to see what all it entails. They know nothing of horses, they don't employ a trainer/knowledgeable person to go help them pick one out....and they often shop only with their eyes or their heart. They walk up and see a pretty pali with a long mane/tail and they MUST HAVE IT NOW. Doesn't matter that it's lame, owner says the farrier just trimmed him too short at their last visit. Doesn't matter that he's obnoxious, owner says that it's the wind or the cold or whatever and that he'll calm down and be fantastic once you "bond" with him.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

I think it really depends on the geographic area.

The woman I bought my gelding from has a business buying very well-conformed, sound, attractive racehorses off the track, and then training and then re-selling them. She does a REALLY good business and has a high turnover rate. She can easily make several thousand on a horse she got for free because she has an excellent eye - she's had several sold sight unseen to professionals. And as she is building her business and gaining a reputation for being a good and dependable seller, and having a steady flow of horses in and out, she's been able to take in more difficult "rescue" horses (like my gelding) that she sells for less but puts more time in. But she's not going to sell ANYTHING for under $1500. She'd rather keep the horse and put miles on than do that.

Now being out in MT and seeing all of these $500 decent horses, I'm shocked. I honestly think the lowest price of a horse should be $1500 give or take, as that's what I see in NJ. I don't know though.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

EliRose said:


> Now being out in MT and seeing all of these $500 decent horses, I'm shocked. I honestly think the lowest price of a horse should be $1500 give or take, as that's what I see in NJ. I don't know though.


I work in MT and northern WY. I haven't been seeing even nicely conformed horses for $500. 

I have use of a couple walk, trot, canter horses, and that price range would be great for what the people need. I personally could use two more. Where do I find them? 

I'm on a couple listserves/sites that supposedly cover the area, but am always interested in knowing more.


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

To answer the original question: in my opinion, the more a horse goes for, the better.
Most horses are not NEEDED as work horses anymore, but are in some way or the other there for people's pleasure. So almost nobody really relies on having to buy a cheap horse. Horse ownership is not a right, but a privilege and luxury.

A horse's purchase price is almost irrelevant, if the buyer intends to keep the horse. The cost for maintenance, feed, tack, training, lessons, vet, farrier, quickly becomes a multiple of the purchase price. So a higher purchase price might ensure that a) impulse buys become fewer and b) the financial background of the buyer allows the horse's upkeep.

This might be controversial, but what I personally would like to see is a much lower number of horses overall, but better quality. In Europe, both horse prices as well as the cost of horse ownership is much higher, so taking lessons on school horses and leasing is far more common. IMO, this leads to better riders, better trained and more consistently ridden horses, and more thought being put in before a horse is bought.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Patty Stiller (Aug 7, 2012)

Around here, most of the family/ trail type horses that should be in the $500 to $2000 range, you have trouble even giving away. 
Only the proven performance and show horses seem to be selling, and at far lower prices than the same kind of horse would have four or five years ago. Anyone around here who is still breeding is wearing blinders.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

boots said:


> I work in MT and northern WY. I haven't been seeing even nicely conformed horses for $500.
> 
> I have use of a couple walk, trot, canter horses, and that price range would be great for what the people need. I personally could use two more. Where do I find them?
> 
> I'm on a couple listserves/sites that supposedly cover the area, but am always interested in knowing more.


I'm in Missoula. I haven't been actively looking because I have no need for a horse currently, and I've only really heard in passing. I know my BO, who had an injury and was forced to sell most of her broodmare band/lesson herd (nice horses), rather quickly sold most of her horses for about $500. The only ones she got more for were for her were exceptional imported WB mares. She actually just sold her last lesson horse for about $450?, and this was a super cute dun Quarter Pony who had eventing experience.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

EliRose said:


> I'm in Missoula. I haven't been actively looking because I have no need for a horse currently, and I've only really heard in passing. I know my BO, who had an injury and was forced to sell most of her broodmare band/lesson herd (nice horses), rather quickly sold most of her horses for about $500. The only ones she got more for were for her were exceptional imported WB mares. She actually just sold her last lesson horse for about $450?, and this was a super cute dun Quarter Pony who had eventing experience.


Drat. I'm always late. Thanks, though.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Regula said:


> To answer the original question: in my opinion, the more a horse goes for, the better.
> ...
> 
> This might be controversial, but what I personally would like to see is a much lower number of horses overall, but better quality. In Europe, both horse prices as well as the cost of horse ownership is much higher, so taking lessons on school horses and leasing is far more common. IMO, this leads to better riders, better trained and more consistently ridden horses, and more thought being put in before a horse is bought.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I will agree that there are too many poorly conformed, ill-minded horses being bred.

But, I would hate to think of middle class people being priced out of horse ownership. Although most do not use horses in their work, I still believe there is great benefit to horse ownership for even the hobbyist.

And having been in Europe, I didn't find there to be high quality horses in abundance. Plenty of low class horses in western European countries. Nor were all horse enthusiasts high quality riders. Some? Of course. Just as there is in the States and Canada.


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## tinaev (Dec 2, 2012)

I can't comment on many of the issues brought up by other posters because I simply don't have the experience. I will defer to their opinions on slaughter and a base price for horses.

However, for me personally, the market bottoming out is the only reason I have horses. There is no way I could have ever afforded a $1500-$2500 horse. No way. I can buy hay and grain and pay the vet and farrier, but a lump sum like that to purchase the animal would have never happened. I got my two for free. Rio was a skinny unknown and Nick an injured cutting horse. Rio has turned out to be an amazing first horse and even with his conformation flaws I can honestly say I wouldn't want another horse. Nick is really good at eating grass and being funny.  

They have given me something to live for that I have never had before and I am so glad that I have had the opportunity to own them. I would hate for people like me to not have that opportunity.


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

Tina, this is not meant as personal criticism, but what is your plan when a larger vet bill comes up? From my experience, it is really easy to rack up a $2000 vet bill, doesn't even need to be anything super serious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Higher end horses tend (not all I know) to have insurance on them. So when one gets something like a suspensory tear or colics badly and needs surgery, they'll get it. Folks with free or $500 horses are just not going to spend $10,000 and up for those kinds of surgeries. Not saying that it's right, wrong or indifferent, just that's how things tend to break out. I know I certainly couldn't pay $10K up front for a surgery with no guarantees, but on my show horses, I don't have to worry about it because they are insured. The $500 horse may be just as good and just as loved as the $25000 horse, but the owner isn't going to spend nearly as much on care. 

That's a huge divider right there, the amount of discretionary income an owner will have.


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## tinaev (Dec 2, 2012)

Regula said:


> Tina, this is not meant as personal criticism, but what is your plan when a larger vet bill comes up? From my experience, it is really easy to rack up a $2000 vet bill, doesn't even need to be anything super serious.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's a reasonable question and one I don't take offense to. My horses were given to me by a vet with a guarantee that for as long as he is around he will provide their care free of charge. So far he has lived up to that. Of course there could always be an emergency where he in unavailable or whatever and I do have a savings account and multiple credit cards ready. I have always had a savings account for emergencies that life may throw my way. But just because the money is there does not mean I would have spent it on the purchase price of a horse.

For most of my life I have been the kind of person that didn't put a price on vet care. I would say that for 80% of the animals that I told the vet to do whatever was necessary to save.... they died anyway. I'm not sure I would give a vet carte blanche with the horses because of my previous experiences at racking up vet bills and coming home with no animal.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Tinaev I hear you. With excuses to the good vets out there, my experience it that they will take you for whatever they can get from you, no consideration for the horse.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

To understand things from a vet's perspective, you might read "Horse Vet -- Chronicles of a Mobile Veterinarian".


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

tinaev said:


> For most of my life I have been the kind of person that didn't put a price on vet care. I would say that for 80% of the animals that I told the vet to do whatever was necessary to save.... they died anyway. I'm not sure I would give a vet carte blanche with the horses because of my previous experiences at racking up vet bills and coming home with no animal.


With my horses, and dogs, cats & chickens, I have a dollar amount in my head before I even have to call the vet for something. We have sort of a 'code' when I take the animals in. I say, "This is a Gold Mercedes animal, I'll do whatever it takes." or "I'll say, "This one is a yellow Peugot, no more than $500.". The vet understands where I'm coming from instantly. 

On the ones where I say I'll do what it takes, that's within reason. If I have a severe torsion colic on my favorite riding horse, I'm still going to euthanize rather than spend thousands on surgery for several reasons. The main one being, most of those surgeries are not terribly effective and the horse has to be put down anyhow. Let's don't torture the horse, let's just let go. That's MY personal point of view, I know others who would do several surgeries and try many times, almost anything to avoid euthanasia. 

I have one right now that had a horrendous injury and I told the vet, "I'll do what it takes." and they did a wonderful job of cleaning her up and making sure no infection set in and so on. I'm actually still paying on that bill. She has developed quite a bit of proud flesh in spite of everything we did to keep it under control. It's possible to take her back in and have that removed and try to get things a little better looking, but at a cost. Until I can see for sure if that's going to affect how she moves and can perform under saddle I'm not going to do the surgery. If we determine that she will be more sound, more athletic with out the proud flesh, we'll do it. If the current amount of proud flesh doesn't affect her when we get her going under saddle, we'll leave it alone as cosmetic only. 

When you have multiple animals you have to set a limit that you'll spend on any one, rather than jeopardize the lot. I can't spend $25000 on vet care for one and run the risk that another will have an accident or become ill and I can't afford to treat it. 

All this applies to the Market for Horses because until recently, I never had a horse where I'd have said, "No more than $500.", they were all worth considerably more than that. So, I do believe the market has changed the way we care for our horses. Except for ones that I probably wouldn't sell at any cost, I am not willing to go into huge amounts of debt on a vet bill.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Cherie said:


> While the anti-slaughter 'do-goodies' think they have done horses such a great favor, what they have really done is insure that the horses that do go to slaughter have to endure a 1500 mile or longer trip.


CHERIE, SO well put!!!
These BLEEDING HEART non horse owners used to use the argument (2007, prior to this ban) that every horse sold to the meat market "had to endure a 1500 mile or longer trip, to Mexico, without food and water." TOTAL BS.
The horses sold at the "meat market auction" in Arthur, IL were driven 4 hours north to a slaughterhouse THAT DAY.
Since horse slaughter has now disappeared, you go to any of these cheap auctions and get to witness severely crippled, skinny and wild, never handled horses--I have seen a stud prodded into the ring with a halter and lead and nobody could handle him--and you KNOW that some of them will die on that trip to Mexico.
THIS IS WHY WE MUST BE INVOLVED!!!
We have left people without "skin in the game" legislate for us.



Cherie said:


> Frankly, I have not seen ANY good that has come from stopping US slaughter.


Agreed.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I am a horse owner and anti-slaughter. So you don't speak for all of us. I know a few others who feel the same way. :wink:

What good comes out of banning slaughter? Cheaper horse prices, less horse traders in it just to make a buck, and the piece of mind that if for some reason I wouldn't be able to keep my horses (whom I hope to keep forever) at least they wouldn't go for slaughter. 

Didn't the EU ban horsemeat from Mexico just a little while back? Due to human health concerns? Hopefully that may shut down the demand for slaughter completely in North America.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

You don't understand that horse slaughter, in all it's ugliness, prevents far more suffering than it may cause. Unless you intend to buy and care for unwanted, sick and crippled horses close to you, you have an opinion but not a solution.
Getting the government involved in a private business (horse slaughterhouses were all privately owner) always creates big problems.
I cannot go to horse auctions where these animals are not even bid on ANYMORE, bc it tears my heart out.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Corporal said:


> You don't understand that horse slaughter, in all it's ugliness, prevents far more suffering than it may cause. Unless you intend to buy and care for unwanted, sick and crippled horses close to you, you have an opinion but not a solution.
> Getting the government involved in a private business (horse slaughterhouses were all privately owner) always creates big problems.
> I cannot go to horse auctions where these animals are not even bid on ANYMORE, bc it tears my heart out.


Maybe Arizona has a stronger economy, but I don't know of anyone giving horses away. If that were the case, I would hope someone would offer them to another horse person. Sometimes people will take one for free even if they aren't shopping for a horse if it is a horse they like.

My mare, I got her from a guy that was going to take her (and a handful of other horses) to an auction. I didn't even have time to do a trial period. It was sort of a take-it-or-leave-it situation. But I went with a more experienced friend who really liked the horse. So even though I wasn't sure exactly what I was getting into, I trusted my friend's judgement and took a chance and got a registered Fox Trotter mare for $500. I was so thrilled I felt like I stole her! Gaited horses can go for a ton of money in Arizona. (Just this morning someone was listing a 15 yr old TWH for $6,000 on Craigslist, just a trail horse.) So yeah, I still feel like I stole her. 

And then, a few months later I found out she was pregnant, which I wasn't expecting but very joyful to find out as I had always dreamed of having a foal. Now he's 4 1/2 and we're trail riding together. 

I look back and hate to think that both she AND her foal could have ended up at slaughter. 

So no, I don't have money to go and rescue every horse that needs a home, but I do like to think I did a small part and saved at least two. I mean, it just kills me to think of them being slaughtered. Horses that are down on their luck can still be great horses. Even valuable horses can drop to the bottom and find themselves in a bad situation. Like that cutting stallion from some months back that was found starving on a farm with a bunch of other horses and apparently he was a pretty famous sire. So any horse can fall there through no fault of their own. 

I would like to think people would give them away before they would starve them to death OR send them to slaughter. Or have a vet humanely euthanize them. Maybe I am a dreamer, but I dream of a time that an animal as noble as the horse won't be discarded in such way. :-(

Horse Plus Humane Society over in California not only regularly rescues horses from auctions but also hosts low-cast euthanasia clinics. I wish we had more places like that.


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## GeorgiaGirl (Jun 16, 2014)

trailhorserider said:


> What's funny around my area though is there really doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to pricing. I've seen really nice horses go for cheap and some overpriced horses (think pretty major conformation flaws) sell for $2500 or better. It's really quite amazing. The only thing I can come up with is that the buyers don't know any better and they think if the horse is priced high it must be quality. :shock:


Maybe they are selling at a higher price regarding the temperament and experience of the horse vs. conformation/breeding.. I know I would pay more for a honest well trained, well mannered horse. Looks aren't everything I'm beginning to realize, lol!


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

We all, horse lovers, do our part. "Corporal" was $140.00, as a skinny 4yo Arabian, and I bid $5 more than the meat market for him. I broke him in and kept and enjoyed him until he passed away from a stroke in the shelter, June, 2009. (1982-2009, RIP)
"Buster Brown" 8yo QH, came from a rescue. The man who dropped him off there (with 50 bales of hay) with his mother before he was weaned didn't know what to do after his wife had bought the pair and then him AND both horses behind. He has a permanent injury, 1/4 inch cut to the top lid of his left eye. This is not a horse that somebody would ever buy to show, but he is mine and I'll keep him until he gets old and dead, like 8/35 horses I have owned.
Neither my intervention nor yours has done anything to help horses abandoned and starving. Horse Slaughter helps us ALL. People just don't want to think about it, or think about where their meat comes from, either.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

It is all about geography. Arizona, like Oklahoma and Texas, is close to the Mexican border. So, there is still a floor or bottom price that every horse is worth unless it is crippled or skin and bone. Around here, a big, fat broodmare that weighs 1200# is worth about $500.00. A 1000# average horse is worth about $350.00. A 2 year old that weighs about 800# is worth around $200.00. This is what they will be set in for. If they are nice enough to go back to the country (an individual buys them) the bidding starts there. The other night, a couple nice open broodmares brought $800.00 and a $1000.00. A couple thin but nice 2 year old brought $500.00. Some of the saddle horses brought $1500.00 or more.

Geography is also why horses stuck in the middle in Colorado, Missouri, Tennessee, Virginia, etc. are too far from a border to have any value. The longer haul would make them lose money if they were shipped to a Canadian or Mexican Slaughter facility. It is simply because of where they are located.

Now, for the people that think it is so bad for horses to go to slaughter, tell me what YOU want to do with the 40 or 50 head that went straight to Mexico from the local sale last week? They did not get a single bid other than from the killer buyer. Where are they going to go? Who is going to take responsibility for them? They generally put 40 head on a floor truck. Where do you think they should go? If the auction company was not here to take them, they would probably get put out in a back pasture and starve to death. That is the reality that people do not want to face. That is why the AVMA (American Veterinary Medical Association) and the prestigious AAEP (American Association of Equine Practitioners) both endorse humane equine slaughter. 

Like corporal said "You have an opinion -- not a solution." If you have a solution that can be implemented right here, today, I want to hear it. The next auction 3 miles down the road from me will be held a week from tonight.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I think people don't realize or they forget, that the meat buyers don't load up every horse they've bought at the end of the auction and run He*l for Leather straight down to Mexico with the lot. The guy who lives down the road from me, brings them home and checks out the nice looking ones to see if he can put a couple of months and some miles on them and then HE flips them to another home. They are HORSE TRADERS first, meat buyers second. He makes more money on those he can flip, so he'd prefer to do that.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

I don't want to get too far off on the slaughter topic, but I will offer a few facts and my own opinion. Personally, I hesitate to put all of this down, but I do try and run my business with character and integrity by telling you the truth as I honestly know/believe it, even if it isn't PC, or what you want to hear. I also don't care for the term "Horse Slaughter" this is a purposefully gory term used to evoke emotion and tears. It is a ploy on emotions and gullibility and is meant to be devisive my opinion like being pro or anti anything else. Life is seldom so black and white in my experience. I will refer to horses henceforth as being processed.

-First off, while we refer to it as the "Slaughter Ban", horse processing in the US is *not* actually illegal. The *actual* deal, done by my state's _tragedy of a_ Senator Landrieu, was a de-funding of the USDA inspectors overseeing those plants. The inspectors are required for the plants to run. So it is more of a defacto ban. 

-You will hear all sorts of horror stories and see sensational videos showing you HOW TERRIBLE the fate of these horses is. In truth, those videos are produced with very careful editing taking the worst moments they can find from thousands of hours of footage. In truth, as I have previously stated, every moment of those horse's lives after they have arrived at the sale barns is observed by trained State Agriculture and USDA officials. Those people are in place for the protection of and ethical treatment of those animals. PERIOD!

-The processing market always has set the floor price of the horse market. This is a simple matter of economic fact and is not open to emotion or opinion. It is pretty much exactly as Cherie described. A horse that is worth $600 for meat is worth more if he is useful. A lower base price for processing lowers the values of just about ALL horses.

-Anyone want to guess how many horses were being processed in the US pre-ban? About 100,00 head/year. Upon getting the Defunding through Congress (by attaching it to a funding bill for the Military during the war and an impending Gov't shutdown) the Humane Society of the United States bought 1000 acres of land to *save all those horses*. As you might imagine, that amount of land can hold less than 1% of the overflow of horses for a single year. This is how far off these people are from having an actual better solution to the problem. The HSUS and PETA are actually on record *now* as having made a mistake and they are NOW IN FAVOR of opening the processing plants back up. If you are a horse owner and think that PETA and HSUS are great organizations, you REALLY need to do some homework of their true aims beyond the superficial ones they offer publicly. If you own an animal, YOU ARE THEIR ENEMY. 

-Horse "Rescues" are a relatively new thing. I know that many on this forum are relatively new to the horse biz, or are fairly young, but pre '05, horse rescue orgs pretty much didn't exist. I'm sure there were a few, but their numbers are up 1000%. Let me say *loudly and publicly, that I am not at all against "Rescuing" horses.* I have dedicated my life to horses and am a full fledged horse lover. We personally own several horses that were basically abandoned and uncared for. I have also NEVER sold a horse for slaughter.

-Additionally, these regulations HAVE NOT *actually* ENDED HORSE PROCESSING. As I said before, they simply made regulating it impossible _in the US_. Horses are still sold and shipped to Mexico and Canada. In the South, where I live, they go to Mexico. Of Course, WE ALL KNOW WHAT HIGH STANDARDS AND REGULATORY PRACTICES THEY ARE USING IN THOSE MEXICAN PROCESSING PLANTS. Due to their low standards, their main market, Europe, has recently stopped importing that meat. The market is likely to get even worse.

-So, what has really happened is that horses are sold for a much lower price due to excessive shipping costs to get them to Mexico. They now have to ride MUCH FURTHER on a truck TO MEXICO. And they are TREATED FAR WORSE upon their arrival in Mexico. A small percentage of the overflow that isn't sold for processing goes to Rescue orgs. Many horses simply sit in varying states of neglect because their economic value is nill and the cost of their upkeep is high. That is all that has changed.

In my opinion, Rescues are great. Repurposing every horse that we possibly can is a great goal and worthwhile, BUT, for simple economic reasons, THEY CAN'T ALL BE RESCUED. Simple math puts the total number of horses that would have gone to US plants since the Ban near 1 million head! 
I can absolutely tell you that the number of cases of abandonment and neglect and deplorable conditions that horses are living in are MUCH MUCH HIGHER than THEY WERE pre slaughter ban. Not long after the Ban, the news would run weekly stories on abandoned and neglected horses in my area. After a while, it was simply so common it was no longer News. Louisiana now has an estimated ferral horse population of 800-1000 head roaming free and uncared for in our Nat'l and State Parks. 

I can't begin to tell you how much worse the plight of those horses on the lower end of the market is now. Personally, I would rather those horses that can't be saved have a rough few hours on a truck than spend years being neglected and starving to death, because for lots of them, that is exactly the REALITY of their fate.

I am a REALIST. Frankly, I know several guys who do nothing but buy "killer" horses. In years past, with a good price/lb. it paid them to actually take the poorer and weaker horses and put them out on pasture for a few months to pick up weight. With the overall price of horses a good deal higher, those guys also kept an eye out for the better horses and they would try to sell them as riding horses at a higher price. I would not hesitate to say that just about as many horses were repurposed that way as the rescues currently get adopted. Now that there's relatively no economic incentive to either put weight on horses, or try and sell them for more to an actual home, well, you can guess what happens instead.

It is great and wonderful to have high standards and lofty goals, but not everyone else has those same standards. Unfortunately, the lowering of the horse's value to the point that it roughly equates to what it costs to keep that horse for only a few months, has allowed many horses to fall into hands where their fate is far worse than a trip to a processing plant.
All, of course, in my honest informed and realistic opinion, except for the numbers and facts that I stated. 

I can also honestly tell you that I do not know a single Horse PROFESSIONAL who wouldn't agree with everything that I have stated. 
I am sorry if I have offended any soft-hearted or well-meaning individuals out there, but I really can't see any other conclusions based on what I have seen with my own eyes during my decades in this business.

As stated, every horse does have a real economic value. No matter how well intentioned, we are all financially limited. This is simple reality. You don't have to like it, but not understanding or fighting simple realities doesn't help anyone or any horse...


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

DanielDauphin said:


> I don't want to get too far off on the slaughter topic, but I will offer a few facts and my own opinion. Personally, I hesitate to put all of this down, but I do try and run my business with character and integrity by telling you the truth as I honestly know/believe it, even if it isn't PC, or what you want to hear. I also don't care for the term "Horse Slaughter" this is a purposefully gory term used to evoke emotion and tears. It is a ploy on emotions and gullibility and is meant to be devisive my opinion like being pro or anti anything else. Life is seldom so black and white in my experience. I will refer to horses henceforth as being processed.
> 
> -First off, while we refer to it as the "Slaughter Ban", horse processing in the US is *not* actually illegal. The *actual* deal, done by my state's _tragedy of a_ Senator Landrieu, was a de-funding of the USDA inspectors overseeing those plants. The inspectors are required for the plants to run. So it is more of a defacto ban.
> 
> ...


I LOVE this guy! He OOZES good common sense! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Let me ask you this......if not "processing" horses is our goal, (well, the goal for some of us anyway), doesn't bringing back slaughter, err, processing encourage over-breeding? Because then any fat horse would be worth a base price? It doesn't have to have training, manners, anything but 4 legs to stand on. So every Tom **** and Harry knows they have a ready market for their spawn, no matter what the quality or training.

If there were no processing (gee, that sounds so neat and tidy) wouldn't there be less breeding and the market would eventually balance out in a few years?

I've heard it said that there will be a strong market for young broke geldings in a few years because no one is really breeding much now, so at some point there will be a shortage of young geldings as using horses. I don't know if that is true, but it makes sense.

I guess what I'm saying is, the market should self-correct in a few years without processing horses again. Right now there is a glut of horses leftover from when there was a thriving slaughter market. At some point in the near future as horses die off there will be less usable horses because less are being bred right now. 

I know my opinion is in the minority on this forum, but I still have a right to my opinion. The collective "you" doesn't have to agree with it. :wink:


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Canterklutz said:


> If your horse can flop over a 2ft jump like a fish it's a jumping prospect. :wink:


LOL! Call-girl pretty much did that... but not over a 2' jump. She fish-flopped herself over a 10" streamlet. Okay... granted, she started and landed in mud - with impressive skidding on take-off and landing - but still, there's no way I'd try passing her off as a Hunter/Jumper. :-D


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## tinaev (Dec 2, 2012)

trailhorserider said:


> Horse Plus Humane Society over in California not only regularly rescues horses from auctions but also hosts low-cast euthanasia clinics. I wish we had more places like that.


They are just up the road from me. Less than 5 miles actually. I remember when I first heard of the organization's euthanasia clinics I was horrified. But the more I have learned about it the more I have come to learn how necessary it is and I have donated towards it. The horses surrendered for euthanasia are evaluated for quality of life and adoptability. If the horse is young enough and healthy they will put it into their adoption program and give it training. They never outright say how long a horse is "allowed" to be at the rescue and rumor has it they put down A LOT of horses that are adoptable due to a lack of space. But at least it has a chance. 

I would like to see more low cost euthanasia options available nation wide and for all domestic animals.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

> If there were no processing (gee, that sounds so neat and tidy) wouldn't there be less breeding and the market would eventually balance out in a few years?


It's BEEN a few years now. How's that working out for you?


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

> I would like to see more low cost euthanasia options available nation wide and for all domestic animals.


So would I. But the only way that is going to happen is if people are willing to donate cash for it. It ain't free.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

trailhorserider said:


> Let me ask you this......if not "processing" horses is our goal, (well, the goal for some of us anyway), doesn't bringing back slaughter, err, processing encourage over-breeding?
> *In short, NO! The people who are "overbreeding" are the backyard unethical and unknowing horse people. I can't tell you how many unregistered studs there are RIGHT NOW on facebook for cheap of free in my area. Why are they still studs even though they don't meet the very modest criteria of actually having papers? Because they are only worth $200 and it costs $125 to have them gelded. Good knowledgeable breeders don't want overpopulation any more than you do. It devalues their horses.* Because then any fat horse would be worth a base price? *any horse is always worth a base price. I am simply illustrating the multiplying problems of that price being too low.* It doesn't have to have training, manners, anything but 4 legs to stand on. So every Tom **** and Harry knows they have a ready market for their spawn, no matter what the quality or training.
> 
> If there were no processing (gee, that sounds so neat and tidy) wouldn't there be less breeding and the market would eventually balance out in a few years?
> ...


You certainly do have the right to your opinion. I am merely trying to share the actual facts which, I would think, would sway that opinion at least a little bit into a more reasonable and realistic place. I'm certainly not trying to argue or anger anyone. Just offering my POV.


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## STT GUY (Apr 23, 2014)

jamesqf said:


> Isn't it pretty much the same everywhere, though? Cadillac vs Chevy, Rolex vs Timex, designer jeans vs Levis, Apple vs anybody else... Or purebred dogs vs pound puppies. Lots of people are willing to pay for the brand name and associated status, even when the goods are the same, or even lesser quality.


I would disagree. Many premium brands may have a higher initial cost but may be a better value in the long run. The Wal-Mart, buy price-point crap mentality has been swallowed by the masses and few people actually seem to still know what comprises real quality and value. Hint....it's not always the amount of the initial investment.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

DanielDauphin said:


> I don't want to get too far off on the slaughter topic, but I will offer a few facts and my own opinion. Personally, I hesitate to put all of this down, but I do try and run my business with character and integrity by telling you the truth as I honestly know/believe it, even if it isn't PC, or what you want to hear. I also don't care for the term "Horse Slaughter" this is a purposefully gory term used to evoke emotion and tears. It is a ploy on emotions and gullibility and is meant to be devisive my opinion like being pro or anti anything else. Life is seldom so black and white in my experience. I will refer to horses henceforth as being processed.
> 
> -First off, while we refer to it as the "Slaughter Ban", horse processing in the US is *not* actually illegal. The *actual* deal, done by my state's _tragedy of a_ Senator Landrieu, was a de-funding of the USDA inspectors overseeing those plants. The inspectors are required for the plants to run. So it is more of a defacto ban.
> 
> ...


Can I 'like' this 3 or 4 times? 

People just do not understand when they have not been to a lot of auctions and have seen the reality.

I cannot count how many horses I have rescued. I did not get them from a 'rescue' organization. I got them from the auction 3 miles down the road. I had the only bid above the KB, so I guess I rescued them didn't I? I have 7 or 8 horses now that are in my trail string. A couple of them I would not price no matter how much someone wanted them. They are here forever. They were one bid from going to Mexico.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Please keep in mind here that I'm not really PRO-SLAUGHTER, what I am is ANTI NEGLECTED AND STARVING HORSES. I've never sold one for slaughter and all of mine will die of old age with me. 
I am also realistic enough to understand that not everyone has the same financial ability or moral code. Slaughter is an economically beneficial and reasonably quick alternative to neglect and starvation. 
It served it's purpose and as I have said, it is my belief that horses in general were better cared for all the way around, especially those on the lower end of the market when slaughter was allowed in the US. It is a necessary evil. That is all. None of us are jumping up and down and cheering while horses die or anything like that. 
All of the rescues are strapped for cash also. They pretty well rely on donations and goodwill. There are lots of stories of rescues where the cash ran out and the horses had to be rescued from the rescue. No system is perfect, but the one we have now is the worst scenario in my lifetime at least.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

I'll toss in my common-sense comments re slaughtering/processing horses. We (well, most of us) don't blink an eye or give a second thought to ordering a steak. We see cattle in pasture and don't think, "Oh those poor things!" They're fat and they're happy. Same goes with pigs. The only ham I can recall crying over was a pet pig named, "Bacon." He was delicious, though.

In the 60s, when my Mom bred German Shepherd show dogs, our bitches got 1 lb of raw horsemeat every day during pregnancy and while nursing. I had a horse. My Mom had a horse. My sister had a horse. We didn't look at the meat in the freezer and see our horses, nor did we look at our horses and see dog food. We understood the differences and the necessities.

In the 80s and 90s, I took in crippled and elderly horses that owners didn't want and kept them off meds for 30 days so they could be processed for an endangered feline breeding facility. Those horses were well cared for, and loved, right up to the day they were delivered to the butcher. They probably got better care in those last 30 days with me than in the 5 years prior.

It is a fact that there is a market for horse-meat just as there is a market for beef. Now, though, because of the "ban," thousands of horses are "humanely euthanized" and dumped in the local landfill or buried in someone's backyard, or hauled into the woods for the critters to dispose of. Humane slaughter and marketing of the meat as either dog food or to meet demand in other countries is not only good for the horse industry, it's good for the economy. It creates jobs. PETA and HSUS and other so-called animal advocacy groups do go out and "rescue" horses, dogs and cats, but they also euthanize a higher percentage than they rehome. And euthanasia serves no-one.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

squirrelfood said:


> It's BEEN a few years now. How's that working out for you?


Fine, thank you. I'm happy there is no horse processing in the USA. Now if we could just get the borders closed.

Actually, horse slaughter might fall by it's own weight with a little luck. EU want's nothing to do with USA horse meat due to all the drugs in their system. But they say China and Russia will still take them. 

EU Bans Horsemeat Processed in Mexico | TheHorse.com

We can agree to disagree. Maybe I have my head in the sand, but I just don't ever want MY horses going to slaughter. It would tear me up if I had to sell a horse and wonder if they ended up at a slaughter house somewhere. How can anyone say they love their horses and be for slaughter? ANY horse can end up on that truck, don't think it can't happen.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Change said:


> And euthanasia serves no-one.


Euthanasia serves the horse.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Just because there IS slaughter in the US does not mean YOU have to send YOURS. Just don't sell them. I'd far rather see a horse slaughtered than left to starve standing in a foot of its own rain-soaked manure because it had no value to anyone. Starving HURTS. I know because I had to do it once.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

trailhorserider said:


> Euthanasia serves the horse.


And poisons the ground, the big reason why you can't bury them in many places.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

trailhorserider said:


> Euthanasia serves the horse.


And poisons the meat so the carcass must be properly destroyed so as not to poison anything else. Again - it serves no one.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> Let me ask you this......if not "processing" horses is our goal, (well, the goal for some of us anyway), doesn't bringing back slaughter, err, processing encourage over-breeding? Because then any fat horse would be worth a base price? It doesn't have to have training, manners, anything but 4 legs to stand on. So every Tom **** and Harry knows they have a ready market for their spawn, no matter what the quality or training.


Absolutely not true. No one, even stupid backyard breeders, do not breed for a slaughter market. 

Horses are bred and raised for profit or purpose. It takes on an average about 5 years from planning a breeding to having a rideable, useable or marketable mature horse. In 2006, there were huge breeding farms raising Foundation Quarter Horses. Foals were bringing $2500.00 and up. Young breeding age mares with color and decent conformation and breeding were selling for $5000.00 and more. I know, I went to several production sales. We sold quite a few horses and paid off the ranch. Everyone knew the strong market and big numbers of horses were not sustainable and I started cutting back in about then. We all knew the huge fight going on to stop local processing was going to close US plants. That happened in 2007. Then, the economy collapsed in 2008. 

Suddenly, the supply was still there and the demand evaporated. You see, in a breeding situation where it takes 5 years from planning to the marketing, a lot can go wrong in that 5 years. There were hundreds of thousands of yearlings and two that suddenly had no market and no value. There were hundreds of thousands of broodmares that were no longer needed to raise foals. There was no place for them to go but to slaughter. NO one wanted them.

There was a time in the late 80s and early 90s that the same thing happened. At that time, more than 300,000 horses were processed each year for several years until the supply dropped back to match the demand. That huge sell-off is what contributed to the high prices in the early 2000s. There was a shortage of broodmares and there were about 3 buyers for every young horse produced. You had to pay $5000.00 or more for a decent prospect. Do you finally see where this is going?

From the time I was a child, there have been cycles of supply and demand where the supply suddenly outnumbered the demand. It happens about every 20 years. The highest horse market for broodmares and show prospects was back in the late 70s and early 80s. Before that, there was a big sell-off in the 60s when calves were selling for $.25 a pound and I was buying saddle horses for $50.00. A $10.00 bill would buy a weanling at the local auction.

Once again, horses prices are starting to rise -- right along with the economy and the reduced supply. 

If you want to look at supply and demand cycles, you have to look no further than the prices of oil. It runs in the same kind of cycles as the horse market. The cattle market does the same thing. Right now, the breeding herd of cattle is the smallest it has been in 50 years. Beef is high at the store and ranchers are keeping every heifer to increase to breeding capacity. Bred heifers have been selling for $2500.00 to $3000.00. Cattle happen to be at the high place in their supply/demand cycle.

Since no one has a crystal ball, we just have to live with the vicious supply and demand cycles and hope we do not get caught on the wrong end of it with too many horses.

so---


> Right now there is a glut of horses leftover from when there was a thriving slaughter market.


NO! NO! NO! There is a glut left over from the thriving sales market of horses bred and produced for that market.


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## SwissMiss (Aug 1, 2014)

Just my 2 cents re slaughter. Maybe my view is skewed because of where I am from, but: I compare visiting a (low budget so to speak) horse auction here in the US and where I am originally from. Yes, in Europe horse meat is available for human consumption, and yes, quite a big chunk of those auction horses end up at the butcher. It is very sad to know that they will not live the next day. But, they are well fed and cared for and are transported a short distance only, before going to slaughter.
Went to an auction here and I have never seen so many skin-and-bone horses in one place, snotty noses and tearing eyes included. Most of them probably had the same end destination as the horses in the first example. But this time they starved and were neglected before transported across the border. And those were the ones that were not left to fend on their own until you find them lying somewhere...


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

One last thing about "euthanasia." To have a vet euthanize a horse is not cheap. Nor is hauling off the (drug-filled, worthless) carcass for proper disposal. 

When I say more horses are being euthanized, you have to remember that most people who can't afford to care for a horse (feed, vet bills, etc.) also can't afford to pay the vet for a nice, peaceful $100+ drift off to la-la land. Those horses are led out into the woods (or the desert) with a .45 or an axe handle and left to rot.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

trailhorserider, I think you should realize that nobody who disagrees with you intends to just beat on you. It is VITAL that we American horse owners agree on how we care for our animals. France, Russia, and China may have an appetite for horse meat--Asians have an appetite for dog meat--but restoring horse slaughter in the USA isn't to feed Americans horse meat. I could not bury my old companions that have died before I moved and on my current property. Instead, I call Animal By Products to collect the body, which they process for many purposes, including all of the bristles on sweepers. (They are very kind and pick up a Lot of equine pets.) The horse slaughterhouses used to process the meat for cats and dogs and probably some of the carnivores in zoos, too. In THIS country we used to recycle the entire animal, and the slaughtering and care was monitored. 
"*Horses have NEVER STOPPED BEING PROCESSED. *What is so hard about this to get? Only the American Plants, the ones with regulations and oversight of how the animals are actually treated are closed. *Horses are still being processed daily, just under lower standards and for a lot less money."*
THIS IS MY POINT! In 2007 I first read an Illinois periodical written FOR Illinois horseowners BY Illinois NONhorseowners pushing hard to eliminate our slaughterhouse in Northern Illinois, affecting ME, personally and my horseowning neighbors in MY state. These jerks drop in to the argument, and then drop out again, (probably moving on to the next Katy Perry video), bleeding heart IDIOTS have determined what happens to unwanted horses in Illinois and even in a GOOD economy:
--the horse that cannot be ridden, crippled or not worth the retraining
--the horse that has a chronic health problem, that makes him/her unaffordable for the owner
--the horse that is literally crippled and hobbles around
--the horse with unsightly injuries and scars
used to go to a humane slaughterhouse and those sick and crippled ended their suffering. Now, the horse that has these problems sits in a stall, or out in a field starving, and uncared for. 
THIS:
Pit bull found starved and frozen to ground, owner denies responsibility - Kansas City Pet Rescue | Examiner.com
is the type of abuse that we wish to curb. Many fewer people see this done to a horse bc "In 2010, a total of 80.7 percent of Americans lived in urban areas, up from 79 percent in 2000." Source: US Census, 2010. Horses live outside of their narrow view. Here:
Farm owner denies cruelty after 49 dead horses found
In case you think I can't find any stories--found this in 5 seconds, and it's happened at two farms 30 minutes drive from MY house.
If you do a Search HERE, you can find more. I cannot read them anymore, bc it sickens me.
I am sure that you are a good animal caretaker. Had I known how to butcher chickens, I would have cut the jugular on the old pet rabbit that became crippled in both back legs, but I didn't know how. (Do, now.)
We do the best that we can. The best is to restore Horse Slaughter in the USA.


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