# WP Critique



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I have a video that I'm uploading onto youtube, but it maybe too long for people to watch so I'm going to post some pix to start and then I'll come back and add the video.

Please feel free to critique both me and Riley, but also remember he's only two years old so please be fair to him and take his age into consideration...that is also why some of my cues are really exaggerated... 

Hopefully these pix are good enough.


I can't get them to upload. well, except this one. I'll come back with the video when it's finished uploading.


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## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

I don't see nothin!  I WANT TO SEE RILEY!!!!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I hope this file isn't too long. I'm not sure what length I should have cut it down too....


I don't know what I'm doing... paste this?


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

maybe it's just me...but the lope looks off when he was going clockwise
As for critique for you...it looks like you are leaning back too far...you're leaning backwards and your legs are out almost like you're gonna fall backwards (best way I can describe it)

Riley is soooooo adorable! He's such a good boy! What breed is he? His tail is up (not really...just kinda up a bit) when he moves. If you find him missing....it wasn't me I swear. It was....it was....it was Mike!! Yeah Mike stole Riley


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Omigosh! I forgot to mention that he seems... I don't know, broken in that direction. I can't decide if it's a weakness from his fracture pelvis or if it's laziness or even off balancedness. I know that he's not underneath himself and he's a little more strung out in that direction. Sometimes he comes down to a trot in the backend. If I don't get him to work through it in the next couple months (we arent moving real fast w/ the lope - taking our time) then I'm going to have the vet check him. I havent decided what the issue is there... He is definitely screwie in that direction though....


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

Riley's adorable - I love your dismount ;-)

the only thing i have is his poll gets a bit low going to the right while at the jog.


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## shermanismybaby3006 (Oct 10, 2008)

you guys look so good together!=) what breed is he?? It makes me want my yearling gelding to grow up. Hes not even two yet=/ but almost tho in janurary hell be two. but anyways good job with your horse and best of luck =)


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Teehee... Sonny, his tail was like that cus he just pooped! LOL... You really think I'm too far back? Ohh.... and I worked so hard to get that way... WAIL... now how do I fix myself!

Sherman, he's a QH... He's a good boy...


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## Dumas'_Grrrl (Apr 2, 2008)

The dismount was fantastic!!!! Very cat-like!!! You're so darn cute Jen!!!!


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## Painted Ride (Jun 30, 2008)

yall are cute together...but he needs to slow down at the jog and lope...try to relax your seat...at some point in the lope you were leaning too fra foward. your leg should be under you more and lower your hands. thoes are easy fixes you will be picture perfect in no time!!! good luck


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## Harlee rides horses (Jan 13, 2008)

His jog is good. Could afford to be a bit more slow and patient..But jog overall is good. Lope, a little bit fast. I understand completely though, youngsters are at that learning stage, keep doing what your doing, with the half halts and that good stuff


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## Corey NC (Sep 17, 2008)

It looks to me like at the canter he is cross cantering, cantering up front and troting in the back. Could be wrong of course.....


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

he is trotting in the back only in that one direction... Do I just need to get him moving up underneath himself?


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## Painted Ride (Jun 30, 2008)

yes even though his head and neck are collected his legs are not. try some longing with side rein work...this worked for me.


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## ahearn (Jul 10, 2007)

OK, Farmpony, I'm sitting here reading through these critiques and the only thing that comes to me is ...HE'S ONLY TWO!!!!!!!!! He is doing FAR more than any two year old I have seen! You have done an excellent job with him. Some of the things people are seeing is because of maturity ( of your horse that is!). This is by far the best looking two year old I have seen! 

As for you, if anyone has never ridden a baby before (that's what I call my young, greenbroke horses) they wol dnot understand the exaggerated movement you are doing. This HAS to be done for the horse to understand what's going on on his back...otherwise they tend to flip out!


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## Painted Ride (Jun 30, 2008)

my sister, jan cannizzaro, won the apha world show on jets rookie cowboy in western pleasure, in the 2 year old class! two year old can perform this just fine. farmpony you are well on your way to success with him! it will not take much in getting him where he needs to be a very successful western pleasure horse. if you have been the only one training him then you have done a terriffic job thus far! keep up the good work!!!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Thanks Ahearn and Tbenitz! You guys just made my day! But I can't take full credit.. I do have a trainer, we haul out for lessons once a week...

I'm trying to slow down for the winter and try to give him a little break because I'm afraid I'll sour him if I do too much too soon... But I don't want to screw up by giving him a break either... OH THE STRESS OF IT ALL!

I'll post another video in a month or so.......


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

He looks great. A little behind the vertical and carries his head a bit too low (in my opinion). I prefer a really level topline where you could set a board down his back and have it set level from poll to withers to hip. His problem with the canter to the left may work itself out in time. He is still young and may not be entirely comfortable under saddle yet. He also may not have the muscling needed to maintain a smooth canter. With work, time, and experience you will have a fantastic horse. He's sooo beautiful.


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## ahearn (Jul 10, 2007)

SMROBS, well said. She's got a really great horse on her hands...Do you know how much I'd pay for that horse?


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## WesternPleasure27 (Nov 9, 2008)

Are you riding in a curb and draw reins?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Ignore if already asked: I'm wondering... are those draw reins and a curb bit?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

WesternPleasure27 said:


> Are you riding in a curb and draw reins?


Hahaha.. didn't see this post till a few minutes after I posted... Jinx!!


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## shermanismybaby3006 (Oct 10, 2008)

ahearn said:


> OK, Farmpony, I'm sitting here reading through these critiques and the only thing that comes to me is ...HE'S ONLY TWO!!!!!!!!! He is doing FAR more than any two year old I have seen! You have done an excellent job with him. Some of the things people are seeing is because of maturity ( of your horse that is!). This is by far the best looking two year old I have seen!
> 
> As for you, if anyone has never ridden a baby before (that's what I call my young, greenbroke horses) they wol dnot understand the exaggerated movement you are doing. This HAS to be done for the horse to understand what's going on on his back...otherwise they tend to flip out!


I totally agree with ahearn. He is doing verrrry well as a two year old. And yeah she basically sums it all up lol=)
:lol:


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## WesternPleasure27 (Nov 9, 2008)

Since I can't seem to edit my post and add to it, I'll add down here.

If you ARE riding in a curb and draw reins, there are SEVERAL problems with this combination.

FIRST issue is the curb bit....the horse is TWO, no horse two years of age should be in a curb let alone _need_ one. Curbs are for horses 5 years and up. You are going to create a hard mouthed horse. Go back to the snaffle- with young horses this is the ONLY way to go (with the exception of the bosal or hackmore). The curb is also what is causing him to be behind the vertical (btv) and too round in the neck.

Second issue is the draw reins. Why? If you are having to force his head down, he should NOT be a WP horse. Again, draw reins should not be used for the head set and should come later on in the horse's training. They were not made to be used on two year olds.

My next issue is the combination of the two- draw reins (or any type of "headset gadget") should NEVER NEVER NEVER be used with a curb. That is way too much pressure in way too many places for any horse, let alone a baby. You said yourself he isn't on his hind end- that's because this combo is forcing him downwards on the front end causing him to be too heavy on the forehand.

DON'T WORRY ABOUT SPEED- work on a properly moving horse, once he moves properly, he will round through the back and collect himself by himself- no gadgets needed. You will also be able to slow him down more effectively. 

Also, you are too stiff through your body. Open up your hips and stop trying to resist the motion. Don't brace your legs, but let them "absorb" the impact. Make sure you use your seat and leg aides before your hands as well.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

WesternPleasure27 said:


> Are you riding in a curb and draw reins?


Yip... I don't always... but yip, that day I was. He'll actually ride in just about anything. I show him AQHA in a bosal but I show him locally in a snaffle, although next year for AQHA I can technically show him in a port bit...

And he doesn't need the draw reigns to drop his head, the draw reigns are actually to help me collect him without being too harsh on his mouth. I'll post a video w/out drawreigns when I can.....


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## ahearn (Jul 10, 2007)

As for the draw reins, I have used and so have MANY of my trainer friends, these on young horses. There is NOTHING wrong with this practice. Any trainer will tell you this is ok....I would use a snaffle with it though, not a curb. Atleast not with a younger horse. I have used draw reins and a curb with a 6 year old though. Sorry, but western training is a bit different than english....


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## WesternPleasure27 (Nov 9, 2008)

ahearn said:


> As for the draw reins, I have used and so have MANY of my trainer friends, these on young horses. There is NOTHING wrong with this practice. Any trainer will tell you this is ok....I would use a snaffle with it though, not a curb. Atleast not with a younger horse. I have used draw reins and a curb with a 6 year old though. *Sorry, but western training is a bit different than english....*


Sorry, but I train both.
Thanks


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## WesternPleasure27 (Nov 9, 2008)

Also, if you Google the use of draw reins on young horses, you will find that not "any trainer will tell you this is ok," in fact, most DISAPPROVE.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm with WP27 on this one.. about everything she's stated thus far.
I have never and will never use draw reins with a curb bit. 
I also agree that you shouldn't worry about going slow right now - get the horse moving out correctly then you can add the collection. 
Let me also say that I do not "disapprove" of draw reins being used correctly, however very few people (being very general here!) it seems actually know how to use them. 

ETA - and usually I only suggest using them with more well-established horses. 

I have a feeling this will be my last post in this thread, just though I'd toss my two cents in for what it's worth.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

You can post away. I read all of the critiques and I take in advice that I feel will help me. I am not taking your comments as personnel attacks although, Seeing me ride my horse this one time it isn't really fair to be "judgemental" in responses. Giving facts and advice is great, that's what the critique section is for.

I will say that I have a great trainer and I trust her and her husband very very much. I don't believe they would ever lead me wrong on purpose and they've done really well for themselves in the QH, Arab, and Mule circuits. She is the one that told me to, on occasion ride in the port, and yes she did say the draw reigns are fine for me to use with it, and if you go to a QH show and watch people warm up, you'll see TONS of riders in draw reigns and a port - I do know what a port does and I do know how to ride in one, and I do agree that draw reigns and a port are not always a good combination. 

I'm opposite of a lot of the QH riders. They'll get into a really bad habit which is to snatch on the mouth - it's one of the dangers or I geuss Risks you take when you learn to ride in that frame, you get a little snatchy sometimes. Especially the younger riders. My problem is that my cues are too soft and I get really "naggy" and that's really BAD. It's a problem I have to fix and the draw reigns help me.

I do ride in a snaffle, I also ride in the bosal and I ride in the port. I've ridden him in several bits as I think it's important for a horse to be versatile. As for the speed, that's not my main concern, my concern is to get him underneath himself, which as you can see I'm having issues at the canterlope... It's going to take me a while because I'm not working him very hard at this point as he is only two. I have a lifetime ahead of me to get him where he needs to be. That's why he's a little fast. I can get him to crawl at the jog, it's his "easy" pace. The lope, he's a little lazy as most babie's are... he's not rushy, which is good but it's really really hard work for him to collect up, he'd rather be strung out... and he gets a little confused with the whole hold his front end back but push his hind end forward thing... he's only two....

anyway, the judgemental portion of the posts is a little hurtful as I love my horse and I'm really working hard with him but the advice portions are great I do take what I can from it...


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## Mira (Aug 4, 2008)

You've got the horse way cranked back in that first video trying to get him to go slow. He's like, lifting up in the front all the time so he's like... hopping in the front. It looks bad and isn't desirable.

Oh, and go with what everyone else already mentioned. Put him in a snaffle and don't worry about his speed so much - you've got plenty of time for that later.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

That's just it Farmpony.. he _is_ only two!!


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## Mira (Aug 4, 2008)

K will it's not letting me edit but I've a little more to add.

I noticed you said you're having 'trouble' with the lope. What I'm seeing you do, based on solely that video, is having him cranked back when you're loping and then you just holding him there. You've gotta give him a chance to do it himself. That's why he's doing so much hopping/lifting on the front - you've got him cranked back, he's given to you, and you just keep holding on instead of giving back to him. Sure, I'm sure once you give him his face again he'll get strung out within a few strides or less, but that's the thing. You've got to teach him and give him a chance to do it right. Once he 'falls apart', pick him back up again, get him nice, then let him go. Basically what I'm trying to say is, at the lope you're just holding him there and not letting go, so he's starting to really lift that front end because he's so cranked back.

This is in no way an attack on you if I came across that way. I'm just trying to explain to you what I see (again, based strictly on the provided video. I have seen no others of you).


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Mira said:


> K will it's not letting me edit but I've a little more to add.
> 
> I noticed you said you're having 'trouble' with the lope. What I'm seeing you do, based on solely that video, is having him cranked back when you're loping and then you just holding him there. You've gotta give him a chance to do it himself. That's why he's doing so much hopping/lifting on the front - you've got him cranked back, he's given to you, and you just keep holding on instead of giving back to him. Sure, I'm sure once you give him his face again he'll get strung out within a few strides or less, but that's the thing. You've got to teach him and give him a chance to do it right. Once he 'falls apart', pick him back up again, get him nice, then let him go. Basically what I'm trying to say is, at the lope you're just holding him there and not letting go, so he's starting to really lift that front end because he's so cranked back.
> 
> This is in no way an attack on you if I came across that way. I'm just trying to explain to you what I see (again, based strictly on the provided video. I have seen no others of you).


That makes sense and I thought I was giving but obviously not enough! I will practice for maybe a month? And then post another video IN A SNAFFLE! But I'll probably post in my draw reigns... and then maybe take them off just so you guys can see how he moves w/out them. It isn't really that bad.


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## Mira (Aug 4, 2008)

Very good idea


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## ahearn (Jul 10, 2007)

W2G- I, too, have MANY friends who DO think this practice is ok. So we can agree to disagree....

Farmpony, I understand what you mean by the attacks! WOW! People have different ways to train horses. Who says one way is better than others? (Don't get me wrong, there are some really bad things to do out there!) Hopefully you can get a good critique without the attitudes.


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## WesternPleasure27 (Nov 9, 2008)

No one is attacking anyone.
When you post videos and ask for a critique, you have to expect negative comments as well.
No one said "you are a horrible rider and should never touch a horse again, how could you DO something like that!?!"- THAT would be a judgmental attack..I didn't see any of that ANYWHERE.

Also, just because you see people in the QH warm up riding in a curb and draw reins doesn't mean it's right. Some riders drain their horses blood to tire them out before shows or tie their heads up at night...pretty sure you wouldn't do that JUST because other people were.
They also jerk and spur...do YOU do that just because THEY do?

Also, FP this comment....

"And he doesn't need the draw reigns to drop his head, the draw reigns are actually to help me collect him without being too harsh on his mouth."

Is completely contradictory...how are draw reins and a curb not harsh on his mouth?


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## Angel_Leaguer (Jun 13, 2008)

He is only two so the speed thing will come, he needs to grow into himself (if that makes sense) Over the winter he will develop alot. With the draw rein issue I usually use a snaffle bit but find that soften exercises work really well too. If you could just get his hind end engaged a little more he would look really good. Great dismount by the way!!!


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## ArabianAmor (Aug 20, 2008)

How old is he again?


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## ScarlettPompey (Oct 14, 2008)

Hi all.

Can't believe how well behaved Riley is for a two yr old! Congrats and best wishes for the shows.

Don't perceive this as another attack, because, I think that most people have the best interests of horses at heart here!

When I watched the video, it appeared to me that Riley wasn't tracking very well from behind. Not that this can be expected at two of course!! He looked like he was snatching his hind legs at walk... this is more evident in the lope, hence why he looks like he has a 'broken' canter; he doesn't look like he has enough 'room' to move his hind legs.

I would ditch the draw-reins for another year at least and get him nice and forward - even if it feels a bit too sharp at times! Then he's being encouraged 'up' to the bit, instead of being pulled down to it. Hopefully this will give him space and time to engage the hind legs and offer balanced gaits.

I would say that the standard check-list for draw reins (if you need to use them), is, the horse is balanced and forward at all gaits, 'offering' to work to the bit and has smooth up and down transitions. Until then, i think they do more damage than good.

Another point is that, as an equine physio (in training!), I am a little concerned that his bones are not yet mature enough for collection. It takes a horse till about 3 until the knee joints and fetlocks fuse, another year for shoulders and pelvis, then up to 5 years for the vertebrae to fuse and strengthen. Over collection can put strain on these and can result in poor formation, weak joints and incorrect lines: All a big pre-cursor for lameness!

It may take a little longer to train with legs, seat and hands only, but I personally think they yield better results in youngsters. Get him responsive to the leg and straight with engaged hind quarters, then introduce draw reins if you feel he needs them at about 4 years old. By then it should just be to 'brush up' his head carriage, rather than teach him.

Best of luck!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

that seems like pretty fair advice. I can do that. I was actually thinking of only riding him once or twice a week through the winter, kind of a break to grow and be a baby? and start back in the spring...


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## ScarlettPompey (Oct 14, 2008)

Actually - though I haven't started mine as young, that's what I like to do! Think it makes it a more gentle introduction! 
Perhaps - and this is only a suggestion - you let him go a bit more naturally in the meantime... then he starts to like the idea of this riding malarky and the rest will come more naturally!

Looks like the weather with you is much better than Britain!! That's a very British thing to say....


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

virginia weather is ... special... to say the least... It can be 70 today and 20 tomorrow.... We go from summer to winter with very little spring or fall...


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## ArabianAmor (Aug 20, 2008)

Altogether I disagree with starting to ride before they reach 3 1/2. What I've learned is leading (real leading-not like pulling the horse around) and bonding for the first two years. Then start tacking and once 2 and a half start ground work such as lunging. 

But again its just the way I see it. I'm not attacking you. I think you have done an amazing job with him. 

As for the curb and draw reigns I would do some research for yourself to really learn the physics of it to determine more for yourself what you think.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Alllrighty. Heres what I have. 

With the draw rein/curb debate (as I'm sure you've heard enough already! ) --it is very, very hard to give a 'release' when you use the Draw reins with the curb--That's why it's a no-no. It takes a LOT less pressure to earn a response with a curb (because of the leverage) then it does a true snaffle, and that's why they are supposed to be ridden with loose reins. Draw reins don't really get 'loose'--when they're loose, they get dangerous (the horse could put a foot through, ack!). Curb bits were NEVER meant to be used with two hands (except for maybe a rare correction), and it bothers me that they are so main stream with people two-handing horses in them. They are not meant for lateral motion of the head, because they were designed to just pull backwards (for a stop). Ergo, they are to be used on finished horses, aka, horses that will neck rein and not on green babies. I'm sure your trainers are wonderful people, but please please please try not to use the curb until he's finished. There's metal in his mouth, on his gums--ouchie.
However, I completely agree that a horse should be 'versatile' in his bits--he should be able to change from one to the next with little to no fuss. But just as it doesn't make sense to put a kid in basic arithmetic into geometry, it doesn't make sense to put a greenie in a 'baby bit', like a snaffle, into something with a curb--he will not understand, at this point in time, what is being asked of him and the lifting effect of the curb is completely lost. He needs to 'graduate' to it.  

Second thing--totally ditch the draw reins. You are driving his chest right into the ground the more you pull to 'collect' him. Collection isn't achieved by slowing him down and 'pushing' him into your hands (especially with draw reins, because he'll just curl his neck and tuck his chin.. and low and behold it becomes instant rollkur! Ack.). Collection is achieved by teaching him first that you need him to engage and use his body, and THEN showing him how to do it slowly. To me his jog looks very mechanical and 'ouchy'--I believe he has the ability to make it look pretty, but right now he's just being pulled into it with draw reins. Just remember--if collection was just about where the head was, why would there be all of this talk about the hind end? A horse can have his head in the perfect position and be less collected then a three-legged broodmare. The draw reins are also really making his canter look more like a scramble, where there's no moment of suspension. I don't think that's a knock at his talent, I think he just needs his training schedule altered. 

First thing I would do is bring his head up. You have to teach him how to collect and use his body first; I'm not talking up like a dressage horse but past horizontal. His body structure is to have his head low, so don't worry about trying to get it back down in the future. It won't be hard (This is how I train mine  . Second thing to do is push him ooout. Have him move like a HUS horse--you're not trying to get a fast choppy trot, you want a ground-covering, long-strided trot. You're telling him 'I want you to wake up and use those back legs and your back, mr.!' At the canter, you're just looking for a 'stride with purpose'; let his head come up, and with your seat, try to feel the moment of suspension. Again, long, purposeful strides here.
I would start this kind of work in Dec. or Jan., keep him there for two months, and then start to take a gentle hold of his face and tell him, 'I want you to be engaged! ...but I would also like you to move slowly ' and you will be AMAZED at the difference. He'll stop looking so mechanical, and his canter won't be a scramble any more. And if you ditch the draw reins, he'll stop learning to tuck his nose away from contact.

I know this sounded like a blast, but I DO really enjoy him.  He's trying so hard for you and he's just a little baby! I do enjoy your seat, too--just loosen up your hips and you'll stop the slight pump you have at the canter. It's not bad by any means. And for AQHA classes, I don't think you're 'too far back' at all.


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## confetti (Sep 28, 2008)

Okay, so I didn't read what everyone else said because there's way too much, so I'm sorry if I repeat one anyone said.

First on the curb and draw reins thing. I, personally, am opposed to them. I was made to use them on my poor Ronnie and he seemed to find them extremely uncomfortable. But you aren't yanking on your horse's mouth so that's good. I would suggest a snaffle at that age because it gives you more side to side movement so you can flex and move him more to warm up as well as school (but not meanly).

He is very, very good for being two! He is a bit messy to the right, but if he broke his pelvis you should just give it time. He seems to have a good head-set, so I wouldn't worry about that. Ignoring that he's two for a minute, there are some things that could be imroved as he matures. He needs to slow his legs down just a bit and could get a bit more up under himself to the right. But give that time because of the injury and age. I'm just saying what to slowly improve.

And this is just an opinion, but I've always preferred a horse with a little more movement at the jog. Just a LITTLE, he looks close to breaking to the walk.

As for your seat, Farmpony, I definately don't think you sit to far back. In the WP it seems to be the style to sit back a bit more. I saw you lean forwars a couple times, so just work on it. I do that too! Haha

I want to say again that he is WONDEFUL for his age! You have very little that you need to majorly worry about. Good job and good luck in the future


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## SDS (Jun 21, 2008)

Riley is....uh...uh..uhmazing! lol For a 2 year old, that is awesome! Of course it's not perfect, but he has tons of room to grow! Good luck with him!


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## sandsarita (Jan 20, 2008)

For the jog, he is doing really well for a two year old. Needs more consistency, but the basics are there.

For the lope - he needs to be pushed out. Don't be afraid to hand gallop him, it will really help. Make him move out, get him comfortable doing that, then while you are hand galloping, sit up and deep in the saddle, lift your hands up and drive, drive, DRIVE with your legs (outside more than inside) to get him to go into your hands. Also ask for a small amount of tipping his hip to the inside. Let that movement collect him and slow his speed down. After he stays in that position for a few stides, slowly let your aids lighten until he either a. holds it on his own, or b. messes up, at which time you correct him. Remember, for a lope you have to have lots, lots, and lots of power from the hind end; don't be afraid of it, just figure out how to control that power.

You mentioned draw reins - get rid of them. They aren't going to help you with him. They'll just keep putting him on the forhand at the lope, which is the exact opposite of what you want now. And please never use them with a curb bit. As far as curbs go, you could start introducing it to him for the jog, but he's not ready for it at the lope yet.

Best of luck with him. He's really cute and has lots of potential to do great things with some more finishing!


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