# Taller Stallion to a Shorter Mare



## Misty&Luna (Aug 28, 2020)

We are thinking of breeding our Welsh/Connemara/Shetland Cross in a couple years, but I was just curious how much taller the stallion can be to the mare? Our mare is currently around 12.1 hands and is 2 1/2 years old, I'm thinking she might grow to around 12.2 or 12.3 still, not much more than that. But would breeding her with a stallion that is around 13.2 up to maybe 14.2 hands high. Would 14 hands be concerning? I'd love to hear your experiences, and thoughts on this.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hello, as no one else has piped up yet, Just to let you know, I'm far from expert, but have just asked this sort of question myself recently. So you're bound to get some good answers, but in the meantime... Seems height - esp if not a huge difference, as you have suggested - is not likely to be a prob at all, but if the stallion is significantly stockier than the mare, then that can sometimes be an issue. Esp with a young, maiden mare.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I'd look at build before height and then combined build and height and lastly height. A taller stallion of the same or slighter build shouldn't be an issue though I prefer no more than 6 inch difference and with smaller ponies I'd be more comfortable with less.


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## Misty&Luna (Aug 28, 2020)

okay, thank you!


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I did quite a bit of reading on this subject several years ago so I'm going by memory. 
Studies have been done where shire embryos were implanted into shetland mares and the foaling process was normal. The foals came out small and then quickly outgrew their surrogate mothers. Many times the embryos of larger breeds are implanted in lighter mares on purpose in breeding facilities. It seems that the mare controls what size the foal is at birth and then genetics and nutrition take over.

I read that the number one cause of dystocia and angular limb deformities was from obese mares as fat builds around the uterus and pelvic area.


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## Plum-Pudding-Dog (Nov 9, 2020)

LoriF said:


> I did quite a bit of reading on this subject several years ago so I'm going by memory.
> Studies have been done where shire embryos were implanted into shetland mares and the foaling process was normal. The foals came out small and then quickly outgrew their surrogate mothers. Many times the embryos of larger breeds are implanted in lighter mares on purpose in breeding facilities. It seems that the mare controls what size the foal is at birth and then genetics and nutrition take over.
> 
> I read that the number one cause of dystocia and angular limb deformities was from obese mares as fat builds around the uterus and pelvic area.


I would like to point out that said foals are died young... not because of birth related complications, but because of out of control metabolic disorders! Turns out that when one rears Shetland foals on the massive amounts of milk Shire mares produce, it throws the ponies internal system way off kilter and results in an early death.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Plum-Pudding-Dog said:


> I would like to point out that said foals are died young... not because of birth related complications, but because of out of control metabolic disorders! Turns out that when one rears Shetland foals on the massive amounts of milk Shire mares produce, it throws the ponies internal system way off kilter and results in an early death.


I don't understand what you are telling me or why.

Edit: 
I think that what you are saying is the opposite of what I said. What i said was that shetland ponies carried full bred shire foals not the other way around.

They have also studied the opposite and it doesn't work out quite as well. A tiny pony in a massive womb doesn't fare quite the same way. There is actually too much room to get into trouble in there.


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## Plum-Pudding-Dog (Nov 9, 2020)

LoriF said:


> I don't understand what you are telling me or why.
> 
> Edit:
> I think that what you are saying is the opposite of what I said. What i said was that shetland ponies carried full bred shire foals not the other way around.
> ...


I did get my words turned around, but what I said still holds true. That study involved both Shetland mares carrying and raising Shire foals *and* Shire mares carrying and raising Shetland foals. The researchers literally just switched the embryos from one breed of mare, to the other. 

Regardless, what I said in my earlier reply holds true. Foals from _both_ groups ended up dying young because of metabolic disorders associated from being raised by the wrong sized mare.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Plum-Pudding-Dog said:


> I did get my words turned around, but what I said still holds true. That study involved both Shetland mares carrying and raising Shire foals *and* Shire mares carrying and raising Shetland foals. The researchers literally just switched the embryos from one breed of mare, to the other.
> 
> Regardless, what I said in my earlier reply holds true. Foals from _both_ groups ended up dying young because of metabolic disorders associated from being raised by the wrong sized mare.


That is not what I took from the article that I read. But regardless, the topic in question is if a smaller mare can carry and birth a foal from a larger stallion without complications during birth.

The example that I made of the study that I read about is also very extreme which the op is not considering. A foal is restricted the the size of the environment when in utero. It doesn't outgrow the uterus thus complication birth.


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## Plum-Pudding-Dog (Nov 9, 2020)

LoriF said:


> That is not what I took from the article that I read. But regardless, the topic in question is if a smaller mare can carry and birth a foal from a larger stallion without complications during birth.


That study has been cited by *many* different articles and scientific papers over the years, it's hardly surprising that we read different ones. 

And I felt that what I have been saying was notable enough to bring to the OP's attention as it's a potential complication that most people probably wouldn't even think of. 

Still, I think it's more likely than not that the OP's mare will be fine. We wouldn't have the British Riding Pony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riding_pony , the Australian Riding Pony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Riding_Pony , the Czechoslovakian Small Riding Pony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovakian_Small_Riding_Pony , the German Riding Pony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Riding_Pony , or even the Pony of the Americas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony_of_the_Americas if breeders hadn't decided to experiment with breeding pony mares to taller stallions. 

Nor would we have seen the greats such as Stroller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroller_(horse) or Theodore O'Connor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_O'Connor .


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Plum-Pudding-Dog said:


> I did get my words turned around, but what I said still holds true. That study involved both Shetland mares carrying and raising Shire foals *and* Shire mares carrying and raising Shetland foals. The researchers literally just switched the embryos from one breed of mare, to the other.
> 
> Regardless, what I said in my earlier reply holds true. Foals from _both_ groups ended up dying young because of metabolic disorders associated from being raised by the wrong sized mare.


Please provide links/refs to this study??


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Loosie
I cannot find the one with the shires but here is a similar study with ponies and thoroughbreds.

file:///C:/Users/LoriF/Downloads/[17417899%20-%20Reproduction]%20The%20influence%20of%20maternal%20size%20on%20pre-%20and%20postnatal%20growth%20in%20the%20horse_%20III%20Postnatal%20growth.pdf

How do you mention someone now?


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

@LoriF you type the @ sign and then start typing the name. It then gives you a list of choices.


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## Misty&Luna (Aug 28, 2020)

Thank you all for your replies. Sorry I’m just now responding haha.


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