# Any ideas on possible foal color?



## EmsTNWalkers

Also, would the stud be considered tobiano?


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## LeighLovesLongears

You can use this to get an idea of what color the foal may be Color Calculator

Mama is very pretty!! Please post pictures when baby arrives!!


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## Kati

I'm curious, was the mother of the palomino a palomino or cremello herself? Because if not, I'm going to say he's smokey black. If so, depending on her genes you could get (based on my research because cream fascinates me. The color experts here probably know a lot more than me):
Definite possibilities just based on their appearances (Provided he's smokey black):
bay
buckskin
perlino
If she's a carrier for sorrel:
sorrel
palomino
cremello
If she's a carrier for black:
black
smokey black
smokey cream
^My guesses but like I said before, I've only dabbled in color research and I have absolutely no idea when it comes to spots


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## NdAppy

the mare has to carry at least one black allele Kati. She's a buckskin. 

What color was the palomino foal's dam?

Do you have any better pics of the sire?


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## EmsTNWalkers

The mother of the palomino was not a cremello or palomino. I can't remember which mare had that one, it was definitely a spotted mare because that's all he has. So she was either liver, sorrel, or black. All spotted. I'm going to post a pic of a foal of his that was just born also. 

But here's another pic of the stallion. Sorry It's not that good, he wouldn't stand still and the lighting was crappy.


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## EmsTNWalkers

Here's the foal of his that was just born. The mother is a spotted liver. I don't even know what you would call this color! But it's really pretty and different


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## EmsTNWalkers

The black that's on the stallion is not a regular black. It's lighter like a charcoal or something. And he's kept stalled so I know for a fact he isn't sun bleached. He is actually more white than anything else. Would he still be considered tobiano then?


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## NdAppy

Yes he is still tobiano. 

what I am trying to see on him is a head shot from the side. The last pic of him in the first post makes me think that he might be brown and not black, but that could be a trick of lighting. 

If that foal is out of a red mare then it can't be a smokey cream as that is a double dilute. Red based diluted once is palomino and twice is cremello.


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## EmsTNWalkers

He definitely isn't brown. It's like a light black, dark charcoal color. I'll try to get a few better pics of him tomorrow.

Are you talking about the foal who's picture I posted? So what color is it? The mare is a spotted liver.

OMG how do you know all this!


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## NdAppy

Brown is a variation of bay and can be at times, very hard to tell from black. As for the foal's color, I would like to see pics of him in daylight out of the barn. How old is he now?

How do I know? lots and lots of research and learning :lol:


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## EmsTNWalkers

The foal is just a couple days old. I'll get a pic outside as soon as the owner turns them out. He hasn't yet and since it's not my horse I'm not going to lol. Plus this mare is hateful! Here is a pic of it with the mare:


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## EmsTNWalkers

I really hope I don't get a sorrell. Sorry if that sounds mean or snobby, but I am so burned out on it!


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## Tryst

It looks like the stud must carry cream. 

I "think" the foal out of the chestnut mare will end up being palomino, though he does look an odd shade. I would also love to see photos in natural light. Do you know what color the foal's eyes are?

You have many color possibilities if the sire is smokey black and your mare is buckskin.

And your chance of a chestut is VERY SMALL (like 2%), so it would be unlikely that is what you will get.


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## EmsTNWalkers

Ok, I just tried the color calculator, but I have no idea if she carries the red gene, is homozygous for agouti, etc. Same for the stallion. But based on what I did know the highest probability came back as buckskin tobiano, just like her


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## EmsTNWalkers

I couldn't really tell on the foal's eyes. They are dark I think, and pink skin around them.


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## NdAppy

Hmmm. Wondering if the foal isn't Champagne. Hmmm


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## EmsTNWalkers

A friend of mine thought champagne as well! She said to see if it has freckles on the nose.

I just can't wait to see what my mare pops out. This is very interesting with all these color possibilities!!


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## EmsTNWalkers

So, after doing some googling....I'm wondering if the foal posted above is a Perlino?? Based on my color calcs for my mare and the stallion (assuming he's smoky black)

26.37% -
Buckskin Tobiano
13.18% -
Perlino Tobiano
13.18% -
Bay Tobiano
8.79% -
Smoky Black Tobiano
8.79% -
Buckskin
4.39% -
Perlino
4.39% -
Smoky Cream Tobiano
4.39% -
Bay
4.39% -
Black Tobiano
2.93% -
Smoky Black
2.34% -
Palomino Tobiano
1.46% -
Smoky Cream
1.46% -
Black
1.17% -
Cremello Tobiano
1.17% -
Chestnut Tobiano
0.78% -
Palomino
0.39% -
Chestnut
0.39% -
Cremello


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## NdAppy

He can't be cremello, perlino or smokey cream as his dam does not carry cream and those are all double dilutes.


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## EmsTNWalkers

Oh  Well there goes that idea!


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## EmsTNWalkers

So my mare must carry the cream gene then since she is a buckskin. How do I know about red gene and agouti?


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## Poseidon

Your mare is Crcr, E_, and A_. She has at least one copy of agouti because she is a buckskin. Agouti turns black into bay, which becomes buckskin with the addition of cream. Do you know what color her parents are? If one is red-based (chestnut, palomino, cremello, etc), she would be Ee or if one was black, she'd be Aa. We could possibly figure out those based on parents.


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## EmsTNWalkers

Unfortunately, I have no idea on her parents color. Sure wish I did.


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## EmsTNWalkers

Wait, so my mare is homozygous for the cream gene? How can you tell?


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## EmsTNWalkers

Oh, and not sure if it's worth mentioning, but the stallion's eyes are light, almost an amber color


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## Poseidon

No, she's heteryzgous for cream. Capital letters mean they carry it, lower case means they don't, so Crcr means 1 cream. CrCr would mean 2. crcr means no cream. So she has a 50% chance of passing cream onto her foal.

I have an idea about that other foal, but I'm not 100% on it even being possible in their breed and am going to wait until you can post some better quality pictures of the horses.


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## EmsTNWalkers

Ahh ok. That makes sense. So, it looks like I have quite a bit of possibilities! Any input on what the foal may be?

And about the other foal, DO TELL!! Pleeeease!


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## Poseidon

If the horses are what you both say they are and could possibly be, I'm wondering about pearl. Pearl is currently only known to be in Paints, QHs, Andalusians, Lusitanos, and Peruvian Pasos and is relatively rare, which is why I'm hesitant to say it because I can't find anything about it possibly being in TWHs. 

Pearl is a dilution that is a bit strange in that one copy doesn't show up on black, chestnut, bay, or brown. But 2 copies make an apricot-like color. Howeverr, what makes it different is that 1 copy of pearl plus 1 copy of cream ends up with a pseudo-double cream looking color. 

In this case, the pearl gene would most likely come from the apparently chestnut dam and the sire would have to be smoky black like previously considered. 

_Wayyy_ out on a limb, but the gene is testable at UC Davis. It would be very interesting if it were to come up positive for pearl though, but that's me with my optimistic pants on.


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## EmsTNWalkers

Ooooh interesting!! I can definitely say that foal is a color I haven't seen....but then again we all know how they can change as they reach adulthood. I'm going to try to get some better pictures of all parties to see if that helps with input. Well, except my mare, sh'es clearly a buckskin tobiano. 

Do you have any thoughts on the foal out of my mare and this stallion?


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## riddlemethis

That foal could easily be smoky cream. The dam could be smoky brown and/or smoky black. It's REALLY hard to tell cream on them, and they can look 100% bay and still carry cream. 

I think the foal is a double dilute.


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## EmsTNWalkers

So in order to produce a double dilute, both parents have to carry the cream gene right?

So, my mare carries it, and the stallion carries it....so then is it a given the foal will have it?


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## Poseidon

No. If the mare happens to be a smoky black and the sire does too, then there would be a 25% chance of the foal being smoky cream because both parents would be Crcr. 

Crcr + Crcr =

crcr
Crcr
Crcr
CrCr

Google punnett squares.

But like I said, my guess what really out there and based on some poor quality photos and I wasn't going to commit to that idea without better pictures.


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## riddlemethis

EmsTNWalkers said:


> So in order to produce a double dilute, both parents have to carry the cream gene right?
> 
> So, my mare carries it, and the stallion carries it....so then is it a given the foal will have it?


No. If both parents carry one copy you have 25% chance the foal WON'T have it, 50% chance the foal will have one copy (palomino, buckskin, smoky black, etc) and 25% chance the foal will have two copies (cremello, perlino, smoky cream, etc).


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## EmsTNWalkers

Wow, so this really is a crap shoot then! Anyone want to place bets?! LOL


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## Poseidon

When is your mare due?


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## EmsTNWalkers

punnett squares = :shock:


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## EmsTNWalkers

She's due any time now! Here's pics of her now. Her coat is shedding off and you can see how much darker it is underneath.


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## Poseidon

Oh, splendid! You have to post pictures when she foals so we can decipher its color.



EmsTNWalkers said:


> punnett squares = :shock:


They're very simple actually. A horse can only have up to 2 copies of a gene so you put those in and you'll get your possibilities in terms of fourths.

For example, frame overo, which is denoted as O and is the gene that causes LWOS. My mare is N/O and if I were to breed her to another N/O horse, I'd get

25% NN
50% NO (two results in NO, but no point in listing them separately as two 25% chances)
25% OO, which is lethal


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## EmsTNWalkers

Oh I definitely will! I'm hoping for something great given the parents colors. This was NOT a planned breeding, so at the very least I hope a really cool colt comes out of it.


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## EmsTNWalkers

And perhaps I shouldn't have gone to the Wikipedia site for punnett squares then! No wonder I got cross eyed, sheesh! hahaha


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## Kati

NdAppy said:


> the mare has to carry at least one black allele Kati. She's a buckskin.
> 
> What color was the palomino foal's dam?
> 
> Do you have any better pics of the sire?


That was bad wording on my part. I was trying to say if she‘s heterozygous for agouti. If she‘s homozygous she‘ll never have a black foal, just bays, correct?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

Kati said:


> That was bad wording on my part. I was trying to say if she‘s heterozygous for agouti. If she‘s homozygous she‘ll never have a black foal, just bays, correct?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she is homozygous for agouti she will ALWAYS pass one copy to her progeny. If she is you have a better chance of having another buckskin. Or if the stud is smokey cream a Perlino if the pass thier cream. Neither could pass their cream and you get a bay. (Happened to me haha)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EmsTNWalkers

Well I wasn't able to get any better pictures today. It has rained and stormed all day long. Just what we need, more mud!


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## EmsTNWalkers

Update! The little foal has blue eyes! I finally got close enough this afternoon to have a good look, and sure enough the little filly has blue eyes! I tried to get a pic but the eyes just turned out glowing green lol. 

So, this confirms that the stud, who my mare is bred to, has to carry cream and is a smoky black. 

Well this is exciting!


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

EmsTNWalkers said:


> Update! The little foal has blue eyes! I finally got close enough this afternoon to have a good look, and sure enough the little filly has blue eyes! I tried to get a pic but the eyes just turned out glowing green lol.
> 
> So, this confirms that the stud, who my mare is bred to, has to carry cream and is a smoky black.
> 
> Well this is exciting!


Depends could carry a white pattern that causes blue eyes.(splash/frame).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EmsTNWalkers

The blue eyes look just like the blue eyes in dilutes. Not the bright blue I saw in the splash/frame. I wish I could get that little sucker out of the barn to get better pictures!


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

EmsTNWalkers said:


> The blue eyes look just like the blue eyes in dilutes. Not the bright blue I saw in the splash/frame. I wish I could get that little sucker out of the barn to get better pictures!


I'd wait till the baby was a bit older
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy

There is no way for that foal to be a double cream and to have double cream caused blue eyes. Not with having a sorrel/chestnut dam.


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## EmsTNWalkers

Do you think the mare might be a smoky black or brown and not actually chestnut?


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## EmsTNWalkers

I'm going to take my good camera down and see if I can get better pics of all parties


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## NdAppy

That would be the best idea.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

Indeed! Can't wait for more pics!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## riddlemethis

NdAppy said:


> There is no way for that foal to be a double cream and to have double cream caused blue eyes. Not with having a sorrel/chestnut dam.


I don't think the dam is chestnut. I think shes either smoky brown or smokey black (with smoky black being the likely of the two IMO)


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## NdAppy

I wouldn't hazard a guess on her color because of the bad lighting in a stall. I was going off of the comment of the op of her being red.


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## riddlemethis

NdAppy said:


> I wouldn't hazard a guess on her color because of the bad lighting in a stall. I was going off of the comment of the op of her being red.


It's not really based on the mare herself, but rather that I think this foal is double dilute and that would make mom a single dilute. 

And she looks incredibly dark in the few bad photos with a lot of white. Very easy and very common for horses like that to get registered red based.


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## NdAppy

She didn't say she was registered as a red though -



EmsTNWalkers said:


> Here's the foal of his that was just born. *The mother is a spotted liver.* I don't even know what you would call this color! But it's really pretty and different
> 
> View attachment 132502


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## riddlemethis

Whether she's registered as red or her owners just think shes liver. Both are incredibly common especially if she's "liver."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## riddlemethis

And I can't tell you how many times I've seen "I bred my single dilute to a non dilute what colors can I get?" And out pops a double dilute. I've even seen "I bred two non dilutes what color can I get?" And out pops a double dilute.

Ill take a foal color over what an owner calls a color or what a registry calls a color because they have proven to be wrong a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Poseidon

Which is why we're waiting for new pictures. 

And I really can't imagine the scenarios you've put up being so common that you can't tell us how many times you've seen that.


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## EmsTNWalkers

I'm heading there now and will (hopefully!) get some better pics. I'll post them as soon as I get back


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## EmsTNWalkers

Ok, I got some more pics! Although they aren't perfect, I think they will help maybe. I wish the lighting was better or I could take them out of the stalls in the daylight...but they aren't my horses


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## EmsTNWalkers

That foal looks to be either champagne or perlino to me. But I'm no expert! Also, I should mention this same mare and stallion produced a palomino 2 years ago


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

Baby looks more palomino now but that nose is really pink.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EmsTNWalkers

Ok, so what's the verdict on the stallion? Smoky black? I'm so curious what him x my buckskin tobiano mare are going to produce.


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## Chiilaa

Impossible to tell without a test IMO.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

If he was bred to a non cream horse and the foal was palomino or buckskins then yeah he would be smokey black. But you can't tell by looking cream cannot affect black pigment unless the horse has two copies of cream.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FrostedLilly

What a neat coloured baby! It would be interesting to see what it would test as. Now, does anyone else not think the mare is a liver chestnut? It's difficult to tell, but I can almost swear I see black on her legs above the socks and black in her main and tail, but with the lighting it's a little hard to tell. Brown maybe? Not that I know if it would make a difference or not, but it's just something I noticed. 

Also, you should have a really nice looking baby, happy foaling!


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## riddlemethis

Foal looks a little bit more pally right now but I'm still leaning towards it being a double dilute. 

And no I don't think the dam is liver chestnut.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EmsTNWalkers

Got some better foal pics today! She is just precious! From what I've looked up she looks like a perlino, but please tell me what ya'll think.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

Hmm maybe that baby is Perlino. It looks so cute!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa

Neither parent look bay or brown IMO. That leaves them either as black or red. If the baby is a double dilute, then the parents would have to be either smoky black or palomino, and neither of them look palomino. So narrowing it down to them being smoky black, they cannot produce a perlino foal. Ergo, baby, if a double dilute, must be either cremello or smoky cream, and given the dark colour, cremello is probably not the case.


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## EmsTNWalkers

I think the stallion is a smoky black. Could the mare be smoky black or smoky brown? The foal also has blue eyes. I tried to get pics showign them but thats easier said than done.


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## Chiilaa

If the foal is a double dilute, then both parents have to have the cream gene to pass on, as a double dilute has two copies of the gene. So yes, if the foal is a smoky cream, then the sire and dam are both smoky black.


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## EmsTNWalkers

Ok, thanks. So, when I did the color calculator it gave a percentage probability of my buckskin tobiano mare and this same stallion producing a perlino. She obviously carries cr because she's a buckskin, and if he is smoky black then there's that. Does that sound correct?


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## Chiilaa

Yes. Because she is buckskin, she carries at least one agouti gene, so can produce a perlino.


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## EmsTNWalkers

Thank you so much for the info!


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## EmsTNWalkers

I finally got to see the foal out of the barn! She is just precious! She had the entire place in an uproar, all the horses were so interested and curious about what this new addition was all about.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

What a cute dilute baby of some sort  maybe smokey cream? I'm anxious to see what the others say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Poseidon

I'm leaning towards smoky cream, which would mean both parents are smoky blacks. It would be interesting to test her for cream and/or pearl, just for the sake of curiosity and confirming her color.


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## Tryst

I think smokey cream too.

Did you happen to take any photos of the mare in sunlight?


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## EmsTNWalkers

Tryst said:


> I think smokey cream too.
> 
> Did you happen to take any photos of the mare in sunlight?


Actually I got a few, I was so distracted by the foal I forgot about her mostly :lol:


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

I'm thinking both parents are smokey black
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stevenson

I would guess the dam is brown. Sire.. smoky . New foal, my guess is it will darken to a palomino, look at its legs. I am not an expert. 
If the sire is smoky with your mares color, maybe you will get a nice a dun / buckskin color.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

i dont see any brown traits im thinking she is just a little faded at the moment


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## toto

that studs obviously throwin champagne foals-- the mare is a buckskin (one cream gene) im guessing the foal will be amber cream.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

toto said:


> that studs obviously throwin champagne foals-- the mare is a buckskin (one cream gene) im guessing the foal will be amber cream.


I don't think the colt is champagne but is black with two cream genes. Also one parent would have to carry champagne it doesn't appear that either parent is champagne.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toto

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> I don't think the colt is champagne but is black with two cream genes. Also one parent would have to carry champagne it doesn't appear that either parent is champagne.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


the stud is a champagne. you can see his eyes are lighter than brown, but aint blue, and he is almost a grulla/coal color, not black. 

he also throws champagne foals.. every one of them were champagne-- you can tell the difference in cream, and champagne by eye color, and that foal doesn't look perlino to me.. coluld be.. if the eyes were blue, instead of an amberish/greenish color..


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

toto said:


> the stud is a champagne. you can see his eyes are lighter than brown, but aint blue, and he is almost a grulla/coal color, not black.
> 
> he also throws champagne foals.. every one of them were champagne-- you can tell the difference in cream, and champagne by eye color, and that foal doesn't look perlino to me.. coluld be.. if the eyes were blue, instead of an amberish/greenish color..


There is no skin mottling on the stud I disagree he is champagne and I agree the colt is not Perlino (bay + two cream genes) I'm fairly positive he is smokey cream (black + two cream genes)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

Plus the stud doesn't have te right color and his iris can be lighten by the cream gene. This is a classic champagne horse. (Champagne on a black base).








_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toto

EmsTNWalkers said:


> Here's the foal of his that was just born. The mother is a spotted liver. I don't even know what you would call this color! But it's really pretty and different
> 
> View attachment 132502





EmsTNWalkers said:


> Ok, I got some more pics! Although they aren't perfect, I think they will help maybe. I wish the lighting was better or I could take them out of the stalls in the daylight...but they aren't my horses
> 
> View attachment 132982
> 
> 
> View attachment 132983
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> 
> View attachment 132984
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> 
> View attachment 132985
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> View attachment 132986
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> View attachment 132987
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> View attachment 132989
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> View attachment 132990
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> View attachment 132992


look at the color of the stud, he isn't black, or smokey black either, he's champagne, his eye color isn't blue, or brown it's an amberish color.. Those two foals are CHAMPAGNE, the one even has the "mottling"


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## Blue Smoke

I was just researching pearl (I know its very rare and may be out there) but the mare seems to have some similar characteristics as some horses on this website. Thought to be just a plain liver chestnut, but carries the pearl gene. Pearl Colors

Down the page further, there is a smoky black pearl who looks similar to the baby in question. If the stud is a smoky black, and the mare is either a) also smoky black or b) she in in fact a liver chestnut that carries pearl, either smoky cream or smoky black pearl would be possible.

What breed are these horses?

I'm by no means a color expert, just wanting to throw this out there.


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## CLaPorte432

toto said:


> look at the color of the stud, he isn't black, or smokey black either, he's champagne, his eye color isn't blue, or brown it's an amberish color.. Those two foals are CHAMPAGNE, the one even has the "mottling"


Sire is not champagne.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

toto said:


> look at the color of the stud, he isn't black, or smokey black either, he's champagne, his eye color isn't blue, or brown it's an amberish color.. Those two foals are CHAMPAGNE, the one even has the "mottling"


He is 100% NOT CHAMPAGNE. You need to read more about the champagne dilution. He is smokey black ( black + cream) the slight lightness to is iris can be caused by cream. The studs coat if he were champagne would be dilute as I showed you earlier. One copy of cream does not dilute the coat but champagne will. He is very clearly not diluted color wise since cream cannot effect the color unless you have two copies on a black base which is smokey cream the colts most likely color. The only rare dilution that I would test for fun is pearl. As it can have one copy and not show up unless there is another dilution to accompany it. Other then that I'd test for cream. The iris isn't even diluted that much now if it were like this then I'd e more inclined to test for champagne. I have a mare I'm testing for it though she may just be cream. This is closer to an amber eye you'd look for in a champagne diluted horse.









_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EmsTNWalkers

toto said:


> the stud is a champagne. you can see his eyes are lighter than brown, but aint blue, and he is almost a grulla/coal color, not black.
> 
> he also throws champagne foals.. every one of them were champagne-- you can tell the difference in cream, and champagne by eye color, and that foal doesn't look perlino to me.. coluld be.. if the eyes were blue, instead of an amberish/greenish color..



I'm not sure where you got that every one of his foals was champagne...the only foals I mentioned were a previous pal and this one we're trying to figure out. All of his foals have not been champagne, pal, smoky cream, etc.


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## toto

EmsTNWalkers said:


> I'm not sure where you got that every one of his foals was champagne...the only foals I mentioned were a previous pal and this one we're trying to figure out. All of his foals have not been champagne, pal, smoky cream, etc.



What? The foals you posted were champagne. I would like to see a picture of their eye color. 

A horse that has agouti can no produce a palomino foal.. the 'mean mare' that you showed and her foal.. that was no a palomino-- impossible.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

toto said:


> What? The foals you posted were champagne. I would like to see a picture of their eye color.
> 
> A horse that has agouti can no produce a palomino foal.. the 'mean mare' that you showed and her foal.. that was no a palomino-- impossible.


What horse are you talking about that has agouti. There are no champagnes here. *FACE PALM*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

toto said:


> What? The foals you posted were champagne. I would like to see a picture of their eye color.
> 
> A horse that has agouti can no produce a palomino foal.. the 'mean mare' that you showed and her foal.. that was no a palomino-- impossible.


Also that's not necessarily true if the agouti horse is heterozygous and a red carrier. The chance is small though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## riddlemethis

A horse can be homozygous agouti and still produce a chestnut. They can be homozygous agouti and BE chestnut. 

Agouti has no bearing on producing chestnut offspring.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

riddlemethis said:


> A horse can be homozygous agouti and still produce a chestnut. They can be homozygous agouti and BE chestnut.
> 
> Agouti has no bearing on producing chestnut offspring.


 
oh true i forgot about the dominance of the gene having an effect on expression


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## toto

If the stud were smokey cream and heterozygous, there would be only one way to even tell, and that would be through testing.. his foal with the b&w mare wouldnt show smokey cream as a heterozygous form either.. the foal would look simply black.. 

As for the 'palomini' no, why? Because black is dominant over red.. 'ee' is red 'Ee' is black.. There is a forum of heterozygous arouti, 'a' but it wouldnt show as a bay horse. I agree with that.. but since the second foal with the buck mare isnt a perlino, it makes me think champagne.. it even has mottled skin on its muzzle, and amber eyes. 2 cream with agoutiwould be a perlino.. that horse is obviously amber cream.


----------



## toto

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> What horse are you talking about that has agouti. There are no champagnes here. *FACE PALM*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Uhmm.. the buckskin mare has agouti, and a single cream gene.. lol.:lol:


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing

toto said:


> If the stud were smokey cream and heterozygous, there would be only one way to even tell, and that would be through testing.. his foal with the b&w mare wouldnt show smokey cream as a heterozygous form either.. the foal would look simply black..
> 
> As for the 'palomini' no, why? Because black id sominant over red.. 'ee' is red 'Ee' is black.. There are forums of heterozygous arouty, but it wouldnt show as a bay horse. I agree with that.. but since the second foal with the buck mare isnt a perlino, it makes me think champagne.. it even has mottled skin on its muzzle, and amber eyes. 2 cream with agoutiwould be a perlino.. that horse is obviously amber cream.


The buckskin mare has not had a foal yet. The foal in question has a smokey black sire and were pretty sure a smokey black dam. Now like I said before they each have one cream gene. One cream on black does not dilute the coat color. If either of these horses were champagne on black their coat would be diluted. If both parents are smokey black then the foal seems to have inherited a cream gene from each parent making him homozygous cream on black aka smokey cream!


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing

toto said:


> Uhmm.. the buckskin mare has agouti, and a single cream gene.. lol.:lol:


obviously...... but she has not had her foal by this sire yet..........

also we can tell the stud is smokey black through his offspring there is no need to test


----------



## toto

EmsTNWalkers said:


> Ok, I got some more pics! Although they aren't perfect, I think they will help maybe. I wish the lighting was better or I could take them out of the stalls in the daylight...but they aren't my horses
> 
> View attachment 132987
> 
> 
> ^THIS foal is Champagne..
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 132991




The stud in question is obviously diluted, he is not jet black.. Look at his eyes, they aint brown, or blue, they're amberish colored.. His coat is a charcoal color, not jet black.. just look again. His mane is darker than his body..


----------



## toto

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> obviously...... but she has not had her foal by this sire yet..........
> 
> also we can tell the stud is smokey black through his offspring there is no need to test



im not tryin to sound cocky, im just sayin' i'll pay for the test if he is cream, you can pay if he is champagne? :mrgreen:


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing

toto said:


> The stud in question is obviously diluted, he is not jet black.. Look at his eyes, they aint brown, or blue, they're amberish colored.. His coat is a charcoal color, not jet black.. just look again. His mane is darker than his body..


I know he is dilute he is black with heterozygous cream. And for like the 10th time cream CAN dilute the iris of the eye. Also many blacks sunfade his coat is not diluted.


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing

toto said:


> im not tryin to sound cocky, im just sayin' i'll pay for the test if he is cream, you can pay if he is champagne? :mrgreen:


I think were going to have to agree to disagree. Good debate though . I already have one I'm testing for cream, champagne, and pearl she is a bit of an oddball.


----------



## riddlemethis

toto, so you are saying this diluted foal is Champagne? Do you think cream+champagne? Or just champagne? And do you think it's on a black or red based?

Just curious.


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing

I see ACC up there I'm curious for her imput!


----------



## EmsTNWalkers

The mare of the foal in question has eyes like the stallion.....not sure if that tid bit helps. I feel lost in the sauce now!


----------



## NdAppy

toto thinks champagne due to the OP calling the foal champagne. 

toto the pic of the sire is not one to judge eye color with due to the flash of the camera. 

Foal is a smokey cream impo. No champagne.


----------



## NdAppy

toto - The eye in this picture is on a smokey black (black + one cream).


----------



## EmsTNWalkers

Both the mare and the stallion have light colored eyes


----------



## toto

If the stud was really a smoky black.. Lets say he was-- the very first foal (who is obviously classic champagne) would instead be a palomino, since that mare was what the OP says to be 'liver chestnut' 

IMO the last foal is champagne-- it just might be cream also, but absolutely not on the stud's part.. I'm going with classic champagne, whitch is black based, and if the mare is 'smoky black' then I'm going with classic ivory. 

'Smoky cream' horses look similar to a perlino.. This horse does not look perlino, or anywhere close..


----------



## toto

Just throwing it out there, the mare y'all are callin 'smoky black' is a tri color.. if the stud was 'smoky black' the foal would be a buck.. I did think the foal looked more amber-- the first foal in picture is definitely classic. 

Make sense? Lol.


----------



## riddlemethis

toto said:


> If the stud was really a smoky black.. Lets say he was-- the very first foal (who is obviously classic champagne) would instead be a palomino, since that mare was what the OP says to be 'liver chestnut'


 Unless the mare was smoky black as well. Which I, and others believe she is. Then this foal could easily be a double dilute.



> I'm going with classic champagne, whitch is black based, and if the mare is 'smoky black' then I'm going with classic ivory.


 Then you have obviously not seen a classic champagne, or classic cream foal.

Because this is a Classic champagne foal.









Now, unless I'm mistaken that looks nothing like the foal in question.

And neither does this classic cream.









Look at how dark the mane and tail are.



> 'Smoky cream' horses look similar to a perlino.. This horse does not look perlino, or anywhere close..


However the foal in question DOES look like these perlino and smoky creams. 



















> Just throwing it out there, the mare y'all are callin 'smoky black' is a tri color.


 Tri color is just a descriptive term and can describe any mulitude of colors. And if you honestly use "tri-color" to describe a horses color, no wonder you are getting into disagreements with people about color. Because you aren't even using proper terms.



> the first foal in picture is definitely classic.


 If you think the foal is classic, then see above. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about if you think it looks classic.


----------



## Tryst

Toto there has been photos of only one foal in this thread. The same smokey cream foal (black + two cream genes) has been posted several times. There was mention of a palomino foal from a previous year, but no photos of it have been posted.

The OP said that the mare that is a liver chestnut is the dam of the smokey cream foal. She does not appear to be an actual liver chestnut (that was what the owners of the mare call it, but it does not visually look like a chestnut of any form), but is almost certainly a smokey black. No photos of sufficient quality have been posted of the stallion to make any sort of assessment of color, only a description from the OP, which does not rule out smokey black. It is obvious, based on the double dilute foal, that both sire and dam carry one cream gene. 

There is nothing about the smokey cream foal that looks like a champagne, and nothing about either sire or dam of the foal that does either.


----------



## Kati

toto said:


> If the stud was really a smoky black.. Lets say he was-- the very first foal (who is obviously classic champagne) would instead be a palomino, since that mare was what the OP says to be 'liver chestnut'
> 
> IMO the last foal is champagne-- it just might be cream also, but absolutely not on the stud's part.. I'm going with classic champagne, whitch is black based, and if the mare is 'smoky black' then I'm going with classic ivory.
> 
> 'Smoky cream' horses look similar to a perlino.. This horse does not look perlino, or anywhere close..


I don't get why you're saying it doesn't look like a perlino or a smokey cream horse. I've seen a lot of cremellos/perlinos/smokey creams and she absolutely looks like one. I also know a smokey black that has always been called liver chestnut because she bleaches that much in summer (we know she's smokey black as she's out of a perlino who throws only smokey or buckskin.) It's easily just a mistaken color. That foal is absolutely not champagne to me (and I'm only seeing one foal). You also mentioned mottling. That mottling to me, just looks like the bumps that a lot of double dilute foals I've seen get. (Might be others as well, I just know that the cremello filly I halter broke and tamed for a friend had the exact same bumps until she was 4 months old as well as the other doubles from the same breeder)
Here are some links to smoky cream foals and horses (pulled off Google):
foal
another foal
adult


----------



## accphotography

Someone asked for my opinion? Easy, smokey cream. The parents are both clearly smokey blacks and it's obvious champagne is in no way involved here. That deal of Toto paying for the test if the foal is cream, TAKE IT. What a steal. 

ACC


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing

Toto you are behind on your color education. Granted I'm not completely perfect at it but you are incorrect about any of these horses being champagne none of them are. I suggest your read more and look at pictures of foals like Verona posted above. It's ok to be confused its easy to do. But I think you need to read again what we have posted. You have some understanding I don't think it would take much for you to catch up. And tri color paint is not correct term. The term tri color paint is referring to a bay horse with pinto patterns that is not tri colored. These chimeras are the only real tri colored paints I've ever seen.

















And check out this smokey cream his coloring is similar to the young colt there.








_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## toto

No, there is a foal laying down that is clasic champagne. The very first foal posted.


----------



## NdAppy

Toto that is the same foal pictured through out the thread. There is only ONE foal in this whole thread...


----------



## riddlemethis

toto said:


> No, there is a foal laying down that is clasic champagne. The very first foal posted.


Its the SAME foal. All of the foal photos are the SAME FOAL.


----------



## toto

That i would call skewbald.. i guess, if you didnt know what the horse was, it would confuse.. 

And that last picture looks nothing like the foal in question to me..


----------



## Kati

toto said:


> No, there is a foal laying down that is clasic champagne. The very first foal posted.


As they've all said,_ it's the same foal_. Secondly, this is the first foal photo and it's terrible lighting. That's why there's more. You can't tell anything in this lighting.


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing

toto said:


> That i would call skewbald.. i guess, if you didnt know what the horse was, it would confuse..
> 
> And that last picture looks nothing like the foal in question to me..


Screwbald is an out dated not correct term too just so you know 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## toto

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Screwbald is an out dated not correct term too just so you know
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I would have said the mare was a bay tobiano, if i knew i was going to confuse you. Im sorry for the second time.


----------



## toto

Do think the sire looks like a classic champagne, and I'll stand by that-- but, you mean to tell me, the paint mare, and the 'liver' are the same horse?? Now im confused..


----------



## NdAppy

Yes the "liver" horse and the mare later pictured in the thread are the same horse. 

No I do not think the sire is champagne at all.


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing

toto said:


> I would have said the mare was a bay tobiano, if i knew i was going to confuse you. Im sorry for the second time.


Lol it's good there's a lot of very knowledgeable people on here I've learned a ton from this site. Like I said you can get caught up. You obviously are interested in it so don't give up. Trust me I've been schooled a few times and I'm better for it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing

But still no champagnes horses. Think cream on black and we'll cut you some slack?!?!... I dunno I'm being silly now :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## toto

EmsTNWalkers said:


> View attachment 132984
> 
> 
> View attachment 132985



This mare has 4 high whites.. the other mare doe not.. What it happening?! Are yall pullin my leg? :lol:


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing

toto said:


> This mare has 4 high whites.. the other mare doe not.. What it happening?! Are yall pullin my leg? :lol:


That is the same horse
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## accphotography

Kati said:


> As they've all said,_ it's the same foal_. Secondly, this is the first foal photo and it's terrible lighting. That's why there's more. You can't tell anything in this lighting.


Sure I can. Even in that lighting I can tell it's a smokey cream. ROFLOL

ACC


----------



## toto

Im only arguing, because i truly believe in my heart that stud is champagne.. he does look like a darker variation of classic champagne to me. His forelock is much darker than his body color, but is like a hazed color.. 

OP, please, beg the owner to bring him out into the light.. Its killin meeeeee!!


----------



## toto

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> That is the same horse
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What?! Oh in the pics i quoted??


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

toto said:


> What?! Oh in the pics i quoted??


Yes
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## toto

Kati said:


>



Is that not a solid leg by the foal's buttock? What is happeninggg?! Lol.


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing

toto said:


> Im only arguing, because i truly believe in my heart that stud is champagne.. he does look like a darker variation of classic champagne to me. His forelock is much darker than his body color, but is like a hazed color..
> 
> OP, please, beg the owner to bring him out into the light.. Its killin meeeeee!!


He is not champagne. Boy I thought I was stubborn . The foal is obviously to us at least, not champagne but double cream.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy

No that is a white leg. The previous post of yours with the mare and foal in the stall is the same mare and foal in this quote - 


EmsTNWalkers said:


> Actually I got a few, I was so distracted by the foal I forgot about her mostly :lol:
> 
> View attachment 133793
> 
> 
> View attachment 133801
> 
> 
> View attachment 133809


----------



## Kati

toto said:


> Is that not a solid leg by the foal's buttock? What is happeninggg?! Lol.


That would be a very dirty white leg.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## toto

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> He is not champagne. Boy I thought I was stubborn . The foal is obviously to us at least, not champagne but double cream.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



i aint stubborn-- i just need more logical explanation behind why the stud isnt champagne.. we really dont even know untill hes tested.. this is like watching a movie, and when it starts gettin good "to be continued" i want to know how the movie ends!! 

Okay okay.. if the foal with the OP's buck mare.. and that is a buckskin tobiano mare, right? 
If she has a perlino foal, I can put this to rest in my mind. But, what if she has a amber champagne foal?:shock:


----------



## NdAppy

Yes the OP's mare is a buckskin tobiano.


----------



## EmsTNWalkers

Dang, sorry for posting such crappy pics in the beginning and causing so much confusion....

Just to recap, there is only one mare and one foal, my buck tobiano, and the stud that I posted pics of.

I did mention that this stud has also thrown a palomino foal, and I found out today it was not with this mare but a different black mare! I feel like Jerry Springer up in here with who's baby daddy and what baby is who's LOL. 

Also, If my memory serves me correctly, the sire of the stallion was a sorrell! I will find out for sure next time I see the owner, and also find out about the dam.

The problem is, I've learned that what someone calls a black horse may not be a black horse, a brown not a brown, etc. So I can't really go on what the owner says anyways!!


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## EmsTNWalkers

I got a pic of the mare's eye color this afternoon. If it matters even :lol:


----------



## Chiilaa

Toto - this is a classic champagne:










Granted, the pictures of the stallion are not amazing, but I still don't see any possible way to mistake him for champagne:










Champagne + black is unmistakably different from black. There is no way to mix the two up. Cream + black is almost always impossible to tell without testing, they look just like a normal black horse. The only way to tell without testing is if one of the parents could only pass on cream, or if the 'black' horse produces a cream foal from a definite non cream mate. In this case, we have a clear double dilute foal produced from two 'non-dilute' horses, so we can easily say that both of them are single dilute creams.

Check this out for comparison. The first foal is our suspect case from this thread. The second is a confirmed smoky cream - a black based horse with two cream genes:


----------



## toto

That mare's eye is just regular brown, lol. 

I know what classic champagne is-- not to sound like a snob-- but there can also be darker variations ..that one in particular seems almost amber champagne to me, actually. 

Eh, in that picture, its hard to tell, but the one where you can really see his eyes, and how charcoal his body is compared to his forelock, It makes me wonder. 

I understand smoky cream is black based with 2 cream genes, but the one in the above picture does look very dark, and has a more crispe, darker coloring, the actual smokey cream foal below looks very cream to me.


----------



## EmsTNWalkers

toto said:


> That mare's eye is just regular brown, lol.
> 
> I know what classic champagne is-- not to sound like a snob-- but there can also be darker variations ..that one in particular seems almost amber champagne to me, actually.
> 
> Eh, in that picture, its hard to tell, but the one where you can really see his eyes, and how charcoal his body is compared to his forelock, It makes me wonder.
> 
> I understand smoky cream is black based with 2 cream genes, but the one in the above picture does look very dark, and has a more crispe, darker coloring, the actual smokey cream foal below looks very cream to me.



Her eyes are lighter than just regular brown, IMO. But hey, I'm no expert and am just going off of my experiences with my horses and horses at the barn, plus those I've had in the past etc.


----------



## Chiilaa

Sure looks cream to me when it is in better light... Bear in mind that the comparison foal that I posted, the picture has been taken using a far better camera, by someone that knows how to use is in a dark stall. They have used a flash, and correct settings on their camera. The photos of the foal in question (in the stall) are not taken in a way that shows the true colour. The ones outside, in natural light, are far more accurate.


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing

toto said:


> That mare's eye is just regular brown, lol.
> 
> I know what classic champagne is-- not to sound like a snob-- but there can also be darker variations ..that one in particular seems almost amber champagne to me, actually.
> 
> Eh, in that picture, its hard to tell, but the one where you can really see his eyes, and how charcoal his body is compared to his forelock, It makes me wonder.
> 
> I understand smoky cream is black based with 2 cream genes, but the one in the above picture does look very dark, and has a more crispe, darker coloring, the actual smokey cream foal below looks very cream to me.


The stallions looks typical black to me no champagne dilution. Only thing I notice is a bleached out black. And smokey blacks can more more prone to sun fading.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## toto

^ those are amber champagne.. agouti+ champagne.





















^classic champagne black+ shampagne









^ i would compair this horse to the stud in question.. classic champagne as well..









,..










^ Sable shampagne-- brown + shampagne 











^ gold champagne chestnut/sorrel/liver + champagne


----------



## EmsTNWalkers

Chiilaa said:


> Sure looks cream to me when it is in better light... Bear in mind that the comparison foal that I posted, the picture has been taken using a far better camera, by someone that knows how to use is in a dark stall. They have used a flash, and correct settings on their camera. The photos of the foal in question (in the stall) are not taken in a way that shows the true colour. The ones outside, in natural light, are far more accurate.



I agree the first ones I took are sucky lol. It was pretty much..."OMG, she had her baby, better go ahead and get pics with my cell phone" and then after that the camera I brought down kept messing up and was pretty much useless. I should have dug out my nice Canon SLR and gotten some reeeeaaal photos!


----------



## Chiilaa

toto said:


> ^ those are amber champagne.. agouti+ champagne.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^classic champagne black+ shampagne
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^ i would compair this horse to the stud in question.. classic champagne as well..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ,..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^ Sable shampagne-- brown + shampagne
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^ gold champagne chestnut/sorrel/liver + champagne


Can only see one photo here.


----------



## EmsTNWalkers

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> The stallions looks typical black to me no champagne dilution. Only thing I notice is a bleached out black. And smokey blacks can more more prone to sun fading.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He is not sun faded at all, He is kept stalled. His face may be some because he pokes his head out his window in the back a lot, but the rest is not.


----------



## toto

Chiilaa said:


> Can only see one photo here.




Yep-- the horse forum just did that to me.. after all that work-- on a phone..


----------



## toto

http://horsesonly.com/crossroads/champagne/classic-adult2.jpg

^thats the classic champagne I compair to the stud..


----------



## EmsTNWalkers

toto said:


> http://horsesonly.com/crossroads/champagne/classic-adult2.jpg
> 
> ^thats the classic champagne I compair to the stud..



I can tell you from actually seeing him in person, both in and out of the stall, ridden, etc. that he looks nothing like this.


----------



## toto

I didn't mean it was his twin, just showing there are darker variations.. you said he was faded, but kept up.. 1 cream gene wouldnt do anything to the coat-- maybe if he was sun faded.. champagne dilutes the coat..


----------



## EmsTNWalkers

Oyyy, I don't think we're in Kansas any more!


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing

It doesn't take much sun to bleach te coat out some plus there are varying shades of darkness in blacks just like varying shades of other colors.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## toto

EmsTNWalkers said:


> Oyyy, I don't think we're in Kansas any more!



...............................toto?:!:


----------



## toto

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> It doesn't take much sun to bleach te coat out some plus there are varying shades of darkness in blacks just like varying shades of other colors.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Theres tru black, fading black, then theres dark bay, seal brown, and smoky cream.. i still think that studs champagne.. he is more charcoal.


----------



## Chiilaa

toto said:


> Theres tru black, fading black, then theres dark bay, seal brown, and smoky cream.. i still think that studs champagne.. he is more charcoal.


"True" black and "fading" black are not genetically distinct. The way a horse's coat fades is related to nutrition and care, not genetics.


----------



## EmsTNWalkers

toto said:


> ...............................toto?:!:



:lol: Yes, I couldn't help myself! Love the name


----------



## toto

Chiilaa said:


> "True" black and "fading" black are not genetically distinct. The way a horse's coat fades is related to nutrition and care, not genetics.


I always thought 'EE' Homozoygous was non fading no matter what and 'Ee' Heterozygous faded.. Thanks for clearning that up.


----------



## Chiilaa

toto said:


> I always thought 'EE' Homozoygous was non fading no matter what and 'Ee' Heterozygous faded.. Thanks for clearning that up.


No worries


----------



## toto

EmsTNWalkers said:


> :lol: Yes, I couldn't help myself! Love the name


:rofl: i bet you think youre talkin with a cairn terrier. 

I'll have to make him my default pic now.


----------



## EmsTNWalkers

toto said:


> :rofl: i bet you think youre talkin with a cairn terrier.
> 
> I'll have to make him my default pic now.


Hahahaha hey ya never know! 









Just look at how ridiculous he looks


----------



## kctop72

Oh, i have a toto dog but his name is Wrangler!!!! He's so cute
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing

My boyfriend has two Cairn terriers. Toto dogs are cute you don't see a lot of them. But personally I'll stick to my pugs 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## toto

We had one named 'muffin' when i was a kid.. our neighbor stole him.

Ill get another one, and a min bull.


----------



## EmsTNWalkers

But the real question is.....what color are they?? :rofl::rofl::grin:


----------



## toto

EmsTNWalkers said:


> But the real question is.....what color are they?? :rofl::rofl::grin:



Definitely not champagne.


----------



## Faceman

EmsTNWalkers said:


> But the real question is.....what color are they?? :rofl::rofl::grin:


Scrufty. Duh...:rofl:


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing

EmsTNWalkers said:


> But the real question is.....what color are they?? :rofl::rofl::grin:


Scruffy, gray, and tenacious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tryst

Cairns come in brindle, black, red, Wheaten, cream,and gray  I used to be a dog groomer and we have quite a few in the area I worked... Cute, but could be rotten


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Tryst said:


> Cairns come in brindle, black, red, Wheaten, cream,and gray  I used to be a dog groomer and we have quite a few in the area I worked... Cute, but could be rotten


I know a cairn breeder personally. She just had a litter in October and tortured me almost daily with pics and videos. I've wanted a cairn for close to 15 years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## toto

http://carthageagriculture.pbworks.com/f/cairn-terrier-puppies-and-breeders-main_Full.jpg

^ sooo cute!! 

It aint as expensive as i thought for cairn pups.. i might get one.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

toto said:


> http://carthageagriculture.pbworks.com/f/cairn-terrier-puppies-and-breeders-main_Full.jpg
> 
> ^ sooo cute!!
> 
> It aint as expensive as i thought for cairn pups.. i might get one.


A cairn pup from good bloodlines should run you between $800-1200.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing

toto said:


> http://carthageagriculture.pbworks.com/f/cairn-terrier-puppies-and-breeders-main_Full.jpg
> 
> ^ sooo cute!!
> 
> It aint as expensive as i thought for cairn pups.. i might get one.


If you do get one be sure to be good at dog training. Terriers can be quite a handful. My boyfriends are trained really well but the terrier in them gets them in trouble from time to time 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing

Shadow the cairn terrier 








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## EmsTNWalkers

Oh my, peppy, adorable!


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## EmsTNWalkers

Well, we may be finding out the answer to the question at hand pretty soon! She is ready to go any time.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

EmsTNWalkers said:


> Oh my, peppy, adorable!


Thanks he is a pretty good dog and very smart! Though personally I think I like my smushy faced dogs. (Two one the left are mine). 








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## EmsTNWalkers

Omg look at the porker in the middle! LOVE IT!! Pugs are precious! I have German Shepherds who think they are small at times.

Oh and I love the one next to the black one, didn't see it on first glance, it's just creepin in there trying to hang with them.

Here's my baby:


Percy


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

EmsTNWalkers said:


> Omg look at the porker in the middle! LOVE IT!! Pugs are precious! I have German Shepherds who think they are small at times.
> 
> Oh and I love the one next to the black one, didn't see it on first glance, it's just creepin in there trying to hang with them.
> 
> Here's my baby:
> 
> 
> Percy
> View attachment 136097


Now you see my affinity for the round puglets which snort like pigs. So you know I love that pig!!!!! Grabby hands!!!!
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## toto

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> If you do get one be sure to be good at dog training. Terriers can be quite a handful. My boyfriends are trained really well but the terrier in them gets them in trouble from time to time
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Are they gamey?

Ive owned several pitbulls-- not gonna lie, i was very strict with them, but they listened better than most peoples kids these days.  lol.


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## CupidsBlessing

So curious to see this foal


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## NdAppy

Cairns are cute, but I'll stick with my beagles lol

FYI _any_ well bred dog from a reputable breeder (one who does all the health testing, etc) is going to cost upwards of $800. We're talking about getting a Weimaraner from a breeder that has some EXTREMELY nice dogs and that pup will set me back more than it cost me to get my horses :shock: :lol:


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## kctop72

Mine are rescued mutts and great dogs
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## NdAppy

^^^ :lol: Nothing against rescues and mutts either. We have those as well. :lol:


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## kctop72

I'm sorry, don't want you to think I would ever insinuate that you or anyone else here would have anything against mutts or rescue. Shoot, I'm still trying to figure out how our 4 dogs became mine instead of my kids and husband????
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## NdAppy

Lol didn't think you did. :grin: I was just saying we have mutts/rescues here as well. :lol: And I get you on that... somehow all the animals except the three large horses are mine... I get two ponies, three cats and three dogs...:think: Still don't know how that happened. :rofl:


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## Faceman

You feeds 'em you, gets 'em...:rofl:


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

Yeah the white dog in is a mix between all the dogs is a Pug and Pekingese that we adopted she a sweet dog. But that brown hairy Brussels Griffon was the most we've ever paid for a dog at $450. Everyone always thinks he is a terrier mutt poor guy lol. But I know what your saying about the weimeraner's puppies my cousin bought a blue one and flew to Iowa for it. Beautiful dog but $1200! I don't think I've ever paid that much for a horse!
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## EmsTNWalkers

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Yeah the white dog in is a mix between all the dogs is a Pug and Pekingese that we adopted she a sweet dog. But that brown hairy Brussels Griffon was the most we've ever paid for a dog at $450. Everyone always thinks he is a terrier mutt poor guy lol. But I know what your saying about the weimeraner's puppies my cousin bought a blue one and flew to Iowa for it. Beautiful dog but $1200! I don't think I've ever paid that much for a horse!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I just started laughing a inute ago when I remembered you saying "puglets" the other day hahahahaaaa. I don't know why I find that so amusing, but I really do.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

EmsTNWalkers said:


> I just started laughing a inute ago when I remembered you saying "puglets" the other day hahahahaaaa. I don't know why I find that so amusing, but I really do.


Yeah we call the puglets. It fits them don't you think? 
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## EmsTNWalkers

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Yeah we call the puglets. It fits them don't you think?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely! Especially that one in the picture. Imagine it and my pig laying together, you wouldn't know who was more rotund! I love little fat dogs, my sister has one, and while his nickname isn't quite as nice as puglet (fat bast*** LOL) it suits him well.

Ahhh, the things I find amusing....must be the lack of sleep being on foal watch. That greedy mare still won't give!


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

Yeah I've been through that. I remember waiting for mine to pop her baby out and finally on the day she started contracting at 8 PM and didn't give up on holding him in till 3:30 in the afternoon. She paced all night long I got no sleep lol. And yeah as you can see by our dogs we like fat round animals. 
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## EthanQ

Does this breeder have a website?


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