# Sun Bleached?



## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Looks like brown not black. The brown in those areas are tell tale of brown.:wink:Fading black is more uniform dulling brown fading over much of body those lower body areas actually are usually less faded/more black:wink:
http://www.horse-genetics.com/brown-horses.html


----------



## Phly (Nov 14, 2012)

There was a matching horse and pony at last weekends show, the both caught my eye. 

I personally love that coloring!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calicokatt (Mar 5, 2012)

Breeze looks brown to me! Think about your hair... if it fades from the sun, where does it fade? In the spots where the sun hits the most, right? On a horse, that would be the topline, not the flank and girth area. Those spots aren't faded, they're just naturally that color, making your horse brown, not black.


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

You crack me up silly girl. How many times have you been told she's black. She's just sun faded. Accept it!  The faded areas look splotchy and just don't have something right about them is it the same on both sides?
How's training going by the way?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

she is black. she might be a "fading black" but, genetically, she is still black.

she looks really really good in that picture. Do yout have any more pictures of the lovely lady?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MelissaAnn (Aug 26, 2011)

Breeze may look black, but genetically she is brown! She doesn't look sun faded at all.


----------



## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

Would you love her any less if she's a different color? No "good" horse is ever a "bad" color.


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Give is a pic without a saddle both side if possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Better yet, get her tested for agouti and settle the matter once and for all


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> You crack me up silly girl. How many times have you been told she's black. She's just sun faded. Accept it!  The faded areas look splotchy and just don't have something right about them is it the same on both sides?
> How's training going by the way?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol, I know, but so many people tell me so many different things! And actually, those spots are from sweat... I was told that sweat causes fading too, am I right? And if she was brown, wouldn't she have a brown nose, and around the eyes? 

Her training is going great! I moved her to a new place where I work and I have put the saddle and bridle on her. She accepts the bit really well, no fight, and no buck or even a flinch with the saddle. She is not pushy anymore, and has great ground manners. Overall, her training is better then its ever been! 

Also, her mother was a chestnut and father was a black, making the only possibilities chestnut, bay or black. She doesn't look bay or chestnut to me, so the only choice that is left is black. 

My boss thinks she will turn into a brown horse over the years though, could that happen? When she shedded her winter coat, she had no brown whatsoever, then she started to sweat because of heat, and then those brown spots showed up.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

calicokatt said:


> Breeze looks brown to me! Think about your hair... if it fades from the sun, where does it fade? In the spots where the sun hits the most, right? On a horse, that would be the topline, not the flank and girth area. Those spots aren't faded, they're just naturally that color, making your horse brown, not black.


These spots are from sweat though, sorry, I forgot to mention that in my original post. She also has a spot behind her ears, but her face is completely black.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

This is just her face, but it is all black:









And here is the other side, it isn't that great, but I don't have any others of her right now without her wearing the saddle. I will get some tomorrow though.


----------



## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

Hmm... I don't know. Her face makes her look black. The light spots make her look brown. Typically sun bleaching occurs in the spots most often hit by the sun - in Clem's case, it's her face, back, sides. The spots that your horse has is in the typical 'brown horse' areas. There's no reason THOSE spots would be sun faded so badly while the rest of her is black.

I have no idea, is what I'm getting at! But if I had to guess, I'd say brown as well.


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Yes sweat can cause bleaching of the hair.

All her winter pictures show a black horse.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Shoebox said:


> Hmm... I don't know. Her face makes her look black. The light spots make her look brown. Typically sun bleaching occurs in the spots most often hit by the sun - in Clem's case, it's her face, back, sides. The spots that your horse has is in the typical 'brown horse' areas. There's no reason THOSE spots would be sun faded so badly while the rest of her is black.
> 
> I have no idea, is what I'm getting at! But if I had to guess, I'd say brown as well.


I think I am wanting to get her tested, just so I know for sure... but the spots behind her ears, in her girth and flank area, those are all from sweating. They weren't there before she sweat a lot a couple weeks ago.


----------



## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

You'll have to let us know the result of the tests, then! I'm curious to hear.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Yes sweat can cause bleaching of the hair.
> 
> All her winter pictures show a black horse.


Thanks, okay... well I am wanting to get her tested anyways... so what tests should I do? 

Here is the link of the one I am thinking of getting:
Agouti (Bay/Black) - Horse Coat Color DNATesting

Would it let me know if she is black? 

There is also this one:
Red Factor (Chestnut) - Horse Coat Color Genetic Testing

What would you say would be the best one? Should I do both?


----------



## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Your horse is seal brown not turning from black into brown Many seal brown horses can look black & have had the color mis-registered. The body can look black but they will have those Light areas predominantly in flank,girth & muzzle.
Get her tested for brown if you wan't to know for sure:wink:.

Starting Point
Seal Bay or Brown Horse Coat Color Modifier | The Equinest
http://www.diomics.com/DIOMICS/PetDNA-Equine-Info_files/BrownPaintHorseJournal0410.pdf


----------



## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Your horse is seal brown not turning from black into brown Many seal brown horses can look black & have had the color mis-registered. The body can look black but they will have those Light areas predominantly in flank,girth & muzzle.
Get her tested for brown if you wan't to know for sure:wink:.

Starting Point
Seal Bay or Brown Horse Coat Color Modifier | The Equinest
http://www.diomics.com/DIOMICS/PetDNA-Equine-Info_files/BrownPaintHorseJournal0410.pdf

PetDNA services has test for seal brown Equine DNA Testing Lab | Pet DNA Services AZ

oops sorry for double post just had wanted to add last link


----------



## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

*sigh*

This is a brown horse...look at the belly, flanks, buttocks, around the eyes, muzzle, girth area. Etc.


OP, your filly is black.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

I read the 'starting Point' link you posted, the black horse description seems to fit Breeze, before she sweat a lot on the first really hot day this spring, she was black all over, not one brown spot.

I guess we will know for sure in a few weeks!


----------



## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I would just test for agouti unless you want to know whether she's homozygous EE or heterozygous Ee on the extension/red allele. 

The cheapest route would be the 'regular' agouti test either from Animal Genetics which you linked to or through UC Davis (that's where I tested my horse). Either one is $25. Their tests don't distinguish between classic bay (A) and seal bay (At) but you can make an educated guess from her visual appearance that if she's not black (aa) then any A's that show up are actually At's.

The most "complete" test would be PetDNA's "Comprehensive Agouti = ‘a’ plus ‘At’ combined" but it'll cost you $60.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

I have the forms from the Animal Genetics site for agouti, and will probably send in a sample tomorrow. Do you know how long it takes for the results to come back? Is Animal Genetics a good site? 

And from all the information given, will it tell me if she is a true black straight out? This is the first time I have ever tested an animal for anything...


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Yes if you just test her for agouti it will tell you if she is just black or not. Animal genetics is really good and fairly quick.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Okay thanks! I will share her true colour with all of you when the results get in!!!


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

She's just black but color testing is always fun so go for it! And an answer to your previous question the fading is from sweat 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Just wanted to say that not all brown horses follow the guidelines. There are many browns that are so dark that only testing reveals that fact they they are in fact brown and not black.
Gatsby is a good example:
http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x413/TrueColoursFarm/Gatsby2.jpg
http://www.allstallionsdirectory.com/wbdirnew/oldenbrg/ol0005/ol0005truslg.jpg
Without better pictures of your filly it's too hard to say, although remembering older pictures of her, she seemed most definitely black.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

I just sent in the sample! I don't care if she is a true black or not, I will still love her. 

I do however have a question. aa means she is a true black, but what does Aa and AA mean? Does Aa mean she has a black factor, but is a bay, and AA means she is just a brown horse? This is what is confusing to me!


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Ee and EE are for black. (ee) is for red. Aa and AA are agouti. aa is no agouti.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Okay, so if her test results come back Aa, she is a brown horse, and AA she is a brown horse.

If her results are aa, she is a true black horse.


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Typo (aa) is no agouti horseforum changed it lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

You are correct breezy!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Thanks! I am really interested in knowing the results!


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

If you sent it to animal genetics they are pretty quick should get it in a couple days
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I would be curious of the genetics behind the blue eye. What breed is she? 

I think blue eyes are normally caused by splash or frame???

I love, love, love blue eyes and on a dark horse especially. They looks like jewels.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Peppy, will it be that fast, even if I am sending it from Canada? And trailhorserider, she is a purebred quarter horse. I am wondering that myself also, the genetics behind it... so I might test her for frame in the future! I am thinking about breeding her in the future (when she is like 6 or 7) and if I do, I will get her tested for LWO and frame and all of that stuff, including HYPP and other genetic disorders or whatever. 

Many people think Breeze has paint in her, I cannot be 100% sure, but I know her dam is a registered purebred quarter horse, and I am trying to get more information on the sire.


----------



## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

breeze absolutely carries frame. there is no reason to waste your money to test her for it.

do not ever make the irresponsible decision to breed to another frame carrier.

if she was splash, she'd have some major white markings to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

CLaPorte432 said:


> breeze absolutely carries frame. there is no reason to waste your money to test her for it.
> 
> do not ever make the irresponsible decision to breed to another frame carrier.
> 
> ...


While a frame test should definitely be done before ever breeding from any horse that potentially carries frame, splash could still be the cause of the blue eyes in this case. Since the splash test, a few horses have been confirmed to carry splash, without any white at all. 

These Gotland horses have all produced foals that have tested SW1/SW1, which means they are at least heterozygous for SW1.




























The last mare does have minimal socks, but no other white. The first two have no white at all.


----------



## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Guess we will see about the brown vs Black when she gets her tests back As for the blue eyes,Frame & splash overo genes can produce blue eyes.Don't assume that is absloutely frame:-( on a solid colored/minimal marked horse. 
Splash over CAN produce blue eyes on a virtually solid colored horse:wink:

Just a little read on subject
Coat color genetics and blue eyes


----------



## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

but, does the sw1 gene produce blue eyes? i dont see blue eyes with those horses. im so curious as to which splash genes are going to do exactly what to a horse. but i dont think science is quite there yet...do those ponies also carry frame, causing the white to be minimal?

if you look on page 2, the picture of breeze's face. notice where the star is. high on the forehead and off to the side. another frame indication. thats also why im confident that breeze carries frame, instead of splash, causing the blue eyes.

then again, for all i know, she could carry both genes!?! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

The parents don't have blue eyes, but at least one of the SW1/SW1 offspring does have them.


----------



## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

that pony is so cute!

looking at the stockings and facial white, could that be another splash gene at play, causing the blue eyes and excessive white? not necessarily the sw1 gene?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

He has been tested and is SW1/SW1. While there MIGHT be another splash there, the other two so far IDed are both in stock breeds, not in European breeds.


----------



## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

thanks for the information! i love when you post. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Breeze's star and snip are both in the middle. It may look off to the side from that angle, but looking at it directly, it is in the middle. 

Also, IF I ever breed her, I won't without doing my research. I will get her tested for genetic deseises when the time does come to breed, I will test her for other stuff, do my research and pick a stud carefully. I won't just go for a cheap stud, I will go for one that is tested, proved and the right match for Breeze...


----------



## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Good for you! That's how it should be when breeding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PaintGirl7 (May 27, 2012)

My mare gets sunbleached in the summertime. She is a black and white tobiano Paint.. i believe she could be sunbleached:-|


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am hoping she is a true black... but if she comes back AA or Ae, it doesn't matter... she will still look black and I will love her anyways.


----------



## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

I'm betting that she is black.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

If Breeze does come back as aa (or even Aa or AA) I am thinking of getting her in foal for a 2016 or 2017 baby. I know it is still a long ways away... but I found a great stud that would be a perfect match to Breeze (I actually was just looking through google for genetic information, when this website with the stud on it pops up!) 

His name is Reeds Poco Vandyke... he is a tested and proven 1999 AQHA Grullo stud. He is cow bred. He has been tested and came up negative for all 5 genetic diseases... is Ee for the red factor and DD for the dun factor.

He can only produce grullo and dun foals... He has great conformation and bloodlines also. This is him: 
REEDS POCO VANDYKE - Shining C Grulla Horses

Now, I know I am probably just dreaming of a perfect baby and that this is just a fantacy stallion right now... but I can't stop thinking about what a great foal Breeze and him would make together!

If Breeze is black... together they will produce a grullo or red dun foal.
If Breeze is brown... together they will produce a grullo, red dun or bay dun foal. 

(I know it isn't just about colour too) The foal would have great bloodlines, be bred for what I want (cow bred, and speed) and have great conformation. It would have a great temperment (going by breezes temperment and what the studs sounds like too) and mature to a good height (around 15hh) 

I just wanted to throw this out there, because this would be my dream stud to breed Breeze too, even if I don't actually breed in the future (because I might not breed her).


----------



## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Breezy2011 said:


> He can only produce grullo and dun foals... He has great conformation and bloodlines also. This is him:
> REEDS POCO VANDYKE - Shining C Grulla Horses


From the link: ""Neal" is HOMOZYGOUS for DUN FACTOR so he can ONLY produce GRULLA & DUN foals no matter what color the mare!"

It always bugs me when they forget about grey mares throwing a grey gene :lol:
You will, however, have a dun or grulla under that lovely grey coat


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Lol, I know, but like you said, the base colour will be grullo or dun...


----------



## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

One thing you would have to check is if they breed grade mares. I know of a lot of AQHA stallion owners who will not breed to grade mares.


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

That is true^^^
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

I know, I am hoping when I do find a stud for her when the time comes, they will breed to grade mares... but I probably won't breed Breeze to this stud... or any stud that isn't in Saskatchewan for that matter, because of the price to do AI with frozen semen (like $3000) and then add to the breeding fee and cost of mare care through pregnancy...

Before I breed her, I will save up like $5000-6000 just so I have enough for the care she will need, the breeding fee, ultra sound and other vet visits, and then the equipment or items I will need for when the foal is born. Right now I have saved up just over $600, just for Breeze, so it will be a while yet (which is a good thing)

There are also some great studs in Saskatchewan, even though I would like one the produces colour, I will really only look for a stud that will be a perfect match for Breeze conformation, attitude, height and bred for ? wise...


----------



## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

SunnyDraco said:


> From the link: ""Neal" is HOMOZYGOUS for DUN FACTOR so he can ONLY produce GRULLA & DUN foals no matter what color the mare!"
> 
> It always bugs me when they forget about grey mares throwing a grey gene :lol:
> You will, however, have a dun or grulla under that lovely grey coat


The thing that bugs me most about that statement is that they differentiated grulla and dun. Because when most people say dun they mean bay dun, but since the stud isn't homozygous EE he could produce red dun as well. If you're going to lump red dun and bay dun into "dun" you might as well throw grulla in too!


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

By saying 'dun' I think they mean, any sort of dun, including, dun, red dun, bay dun, dunalino and dunskin... but the word Dun is meant to just sum it all up into one catagory.

By saying 'grulla and dun' they are meaning that since the sire is a grulla, the one colour you can get a chance of is this specific type of dun... although it will still fit into the dun catagory. 

Does this make sense?


----------



## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

Isn't grulla dun as well? It's just dun acting on a black coat right?


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Yes, grulla/o is dun on black...


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Yes, but what I am trying to say is that they put 'will only produce grulla and dun foals' they are trying to say that the foal will always have a chance of being a grullo, and then other duns as well.


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Which is asinine, as dun would cover grulla/o as well...


----------



## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Breezy2011 said:


> By saying 'dun' I think they mean, any sort of dun, including, dun, red dun, bay dun, dunalino and dunskin... but the word Dun is meant to just sum it all up into one catagory.
> 
> By saying 'grulla and dun' they are meaning that since the sire is a grulla, the one colour you can get a chance of is this specific type of dun... although it will still fit into the dun catagory.
> 
> Does this make sense?


I still think it's silly to specify grulla and dun as separate possibilities... Just because the stallion is grulla doesn't mean you have any better chance of producing grulla than any other color on any given mare. _Especially_ since the stallion isn't homozygous black. You have just as good a chance for any other base color with dun. A mare who's homozygous for agouti has 0% chance of producing a grulla foal, after all.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Well that is just what the website said... so ??? with the grulla and dun.


----------



## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Not asking you to defend the website (we know it's not yours!) just pointing out a little bit of silliness on their part


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am not defending the website, I am not defending anyone. I know that what you guys are saying is true... and I don't know what I was trying to say. Lol


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Okay, so I got an email from Animal Genetics, stating they have gotten my sample and are processing it now, I will get the results within 1 week!

Any bets on what she is? Is there a way I can start a poll on here, or possibly another thread?


----------

