# Parelli



## Nero1246 (Dec 8, 2013)

Thinking of doing Parelli with my horse.
What do you think of it?
Also what are the pros+cons?


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

Parelli is... well. I won't state my opinion. 
It is very hit or miss. 
Some horses take well to it, other horses use it as an excuse to get away with bad behavior, and their owners excuse it because it's part of the "training." 

No trainer is perfect, but Parelli has more dings in their reputation (I believe) than I would care for.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Nero1246 said:


> Thinking of doing Parelli with my horse.
> What do you think of it?


I sincerely wish you luck. 

I personally believe there are much better paths to take, but everyone has to make up their own mind. 

Just don't drink the Kook Ade and start believing the Parelli system is the ONLY way to train a horse, and anyone who doesn't buy into it is abusive. Fanatics of any kind should be avoided.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Speed Racer said:


> Just don't drink the Kook Ade and start believing the Parelli system is the ONLY way to train a horse, and anyone who doesn't buy into it is abusive. Fanatics of any kind should be avoided.


Not sure if you meant the strategic typo:lol: but absolutely! Be it Parelli, other 'gurus', other than horse training... I think the main 'cons' with most things are in people getting fanatical about it, taking everything on faith, not being objective & analytical about what they learn. Met some Monty Roberts cultists the other day... even worse that Parelliitis IME!!:lol:

...Whoops, strategic typo again!


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## darkpony (Nov 20, 2013)

I agree, the major flaw of parelli is the way people "take to it". I think it could be a good starting point, but as others have said it is NOT the only way. Also, dont fall into the trap of marketing. A rope halter is a rope halter, whether it has the name on it or not. 

If I were to pick a person to learn from I would watch Clinton Andersons RFDTV series. It is free... Also, I prefer the way CA explains things. Take it for what its worth.. but Parelli is just a little (for lack of a better word) fruity for me.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> Fanatics of any kind should be avoided.


So Horse Forum-ers and horse lovers should be avoided too? Aren't we all fanatics about something?

As for the OP's question, there are some things that I have used of the Parelli's. I'm not a fan of the right brain left brain introvert extrovert mumbo jumbo. Too confusing for me. 

If you can understand what they mean and use it to work better with your horse, great and go for it. 

Personally, I've taken bits and pieces from several of the big named trainers and use. I do use mostly Clinton Anderson but that is because I think he is easy to understand and his method is easy to follow. 

There is one trainer that was on TV that I could barely watch. I don't remember his name even. He is one that thinks round penning or lunging should never be done. I did however use one of his techniques. I modified it a little to suit my purpose. 

Just don't dive right into the Parelli's training as being the only one or the best. Test it out to see if it suits you but remember, no one method works for all people or all horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

You're deliberately misconstruing my point, Us. There's a huge, yawning chasm between being passionate about something and being a crazed fanatic.

Enthusiasts are fine, but when passion turns to fanaticism that way lies rigidity and the inability to see anyone else's point of view. Any program that denigrates others and holds its members up as better and more special than everyone else, and Parelli isn't the only one by a long shot, should be avoided. 

A cult by any other name is still a cult. Take what you can from any method, just don't get suckered into believing it's the only true path. There are many roads to Rome. 

Oh, and Kook Ade isn't a typo. :wink:


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

I was just trying to be funny and sarcastic in that part. I guess I could have put JK after it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I've met some Parelli folks who are so NOT kooks. they chose a different way , and get satisfaction from interacting with their horses in a different way. and the amazing thing is that they are happy, and so is the horse. 
it is true, however, that there are quite a few people who get lost in the superficial appearance of the training, doing the steps, and passing the levels, and really do not GET what they are trying to achieve with the horse, and what a respectful horse looks like.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I don't think the fanaticism is about Parelli particularly either. It's about us as people. IME it seems we're more conditioned to accept things on blind faith - religions, 'experts' in specific fields, etc, etc. We tend to have to learn how to think about things rationally & analytically.

If you buy/borrow Parelli's old book(don't think he ever put out another), you will learn the basic principles. And as with most things, it's the basic principles that are the most valuable. IMO it is really helpful for beginners to learn. Some of the older vids - 7 Games for eg - are also really good, but I feel more recent stuff has gone too... left of field!


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

My question would be... what are you hoping to accomplish? Are you looking to correct a vice? Further training? Just spend time with your horse?

Depending on the situation... I'd say get a trainer. If you're just looking for something to do, why not try clicker training?


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Google Carolyn Resnick and join her blog. There is a lot of helpful info there, beginning with catching your horse in a field but I want to rephrase that, it's more about convincing your horse to join you. Unlike Parelli, you begin with the horse at liberty which means not even a halter. To help you with this, after you've done plenty of reading, google Erin's Carolyn Resnicks Notes and go to the menu on the left and read only 1,2 and 3. No point in reading more at this point in time. Carolyn doesn't use the stiff stick but a fine willowy reed. I cut one from a willow bush, very thin about 4' long. When it's move thro the air quickly the tip literally sings. When the tip is touched to the horse it's a light as a fly yet often gets a response.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I think that there are valuable things to be learned from every trainer, or from every person in general. One of the few things I like about Parelli is the fact that he makes an effort to show every horse learns differently, just like people. There is no "one surefire way" to train a horse. A training program has to be modified to the individual. Parelli takes it far with the whole "brain" labeling thing-which is cool with me. If you want to get all scientific and label the horse's brain, that's fine with me! Just as long as everyone gets to the same "destination", so to speak. Whatever helps you understand horse behavior better.

And that's the bottom line-understanding horse behavior. True "natural horsemanship" is watching how the horse's interact with each other, and using a similar interaction to communicate to your horse what you want. I think the "games" some people like to play in horse training _can_ (not to say always will, but can) backfire, because both you and the horse are trying to learn a whole 'nother "language", instead of you just speaking horse right from the start. However, once again, it depends on the individual. If the horse is very inquisitive, playful, abused, or fearful, perhaps playing games would help him.

So, for said reasons, in training a horse I take techniques I see from many people (trainers or not) and put everything together to create a program for the individual horse. Basically, I just use what makes common and rational "horse sense", and choose what methods are used for the horse. For example, my two horses under saddle. My mother's horse (a ranch broke QH) is a noncombative submissive type. When asking her to do something (leg signals), squeeze first, again, if no response, kick. My jumper is a dominant combative type. First squeeze-no response-sharp tap with heel-no response-kick and flick with dressage whip. Only when necessary, I give her a sharp smack with the whip. Some horses you can give an inch or two, others you can't give any leeway.

Summary of my novel: adjust to the individual. :wink:


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

usandpets said:


> I was just trying to be funny and sarcastic in that part. I guess I could have put JK after it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's really hard to denote sarcasm in the written word. There are times I've posted things that I think are obviously meant as a joke, that have been taken at face value as well. Guess I'm not always as hilarious as I believe!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I will state it bluntly. I'm not a fan of Parelli. Every single Parelli-"trained" horse I have dealt with has been a pushy, overbearing hot mess. This includes the one 28yo Arab gelding whose owner did all the clinics and worked with a Parelli certified trainer. 

My old gelding was "trained" using Parelli. It took me almost six months to get him to stop climbing up my shoulder because he "spooked" at nothing and to stop pushing into my space constantly. His previous owners used only the parts of Parelli that were convenient for them, which included the "if the horse spooks or doesn't want to work, don't make him" mantra. Dakota learned that if he spooked, he got put away and didn't have to work, so he would find perceived threats to spook at so he could get out of doing anything. He literally spooked at a leaf being blown by on a light breeze one day. It took a firm hand and a lot of Come to Jesus meetings for him to go from the pushy, spooky, hot-headed horse I got him as to the calm, gentle, laid-back gelding that we used as a bareback lesson horse.

There are far better NH methods out there. I would do as others suggested and take bits and pieces from many different trainers. I personally use mainly Clinton Anderson with some Chris Cox and Ray Hunt thrown in, along with just good old-fashioned common sense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I find it really interesting to hear people's such contrasting perceptions about things, specifics, trainers, etc. It further convinces me that whatever the basic 'lesson', that we all learn from it & come away with our own individual perceptions.



horseluvr2524 said:


> One of the few things I like about Parelli is the fact that he makes an effort to show every horse learns differently, just like people. There is no "one surefire way" to train a horse.


When I got into Parelli a couple of decades ago, that is one of the things that I personally got out of it too. However, you hear so many people say precisely the opposite about this training theory/program too. Whether he's digressed, whether it's to do more with Linda - & I've seen some awful egs from her, mostly to do with her 'banging on' with 'recipe' type approaches that are clearly not working for the horse in question...



> It took me almost six months to get him to stop climbing up my shoulder because he "spooked" at nothing and to stop pushing into my space constantly. *His previous owners used only the parts of Parelli that were convenient for them*, which included the "if the horse spooks or doesn't want to work, don't make him" mantra


Bolded the bit that I think should read 'what they perceived as Parelli', because I got nothing of that sort of 'mantra' from Parelli. Understanding how to desensitise to 'scaries' in a nonconfrontational way is what I got out of it. I do find they're rather... disciplinarian too tho & I suspect 'if he doesn't want to...' was purely their own idea, more like the opposite of what Parelli taught. 

Also another of the big things I got from Parelli was teaching horses to be safe, including 'respecting' your space as a big part of that, so again, I wouldn't think of allowing 'pushing into your space' as a Parelli thing at all either. As a matter of fact, in my job dealing with so many different horses, it's one thing I find so many owners just allow & reinforce without thinking & I find on the whole, 'Parelli' owners have better 'mannered' horses.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Loosie, the Arab gelding at my old barn who had done the clinics and worked with a Parelli certified trainer was even worse about respecting space than my old gelding was. Brock was constantly on his owner's shoulder, nosing into her, dancing sideways into her and just generally being an obnoxious butt-head. He was horrible in turnout. Most of the horses, if they came up to you unwanted, you could send them away with a well-placed flick of the lead rope or a shove. If you shoved Brock, he came back at you (not aggressive, just didn't get it). If you flicked the lead rope at him, he somehow thought you wanted to play one of the Parelli "games" with him. If my gelding did any of the stuff that Brock did (and got away with, with the owner's excuse that it was his training that made him that way), we would have a CTJ right then and there and it would NOT be pretty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

I have encountered success using the parelli methods. No trainer's methods will work if you do exactly one they say for a particular horse. There is a huge difference in how I do natural horsemanship with the 5 year old paint and 10 year old Arabian I work with. Natural horsemanship methodologies are not set in stone, they need to be adjust for each horse. 

Parelli's concept? I like it. I liked it enough to have my groundwork foundations be started on it.
Parelli's marketing strategy? I hate it. They seem to be operating on money now, not the outcome of the horse.


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I will state it bluntly. I'm not a fan of Parelli. Every single Parelli-"trained" horse I have dealt with has been a pushy, overbearing hot mess. This includes the one 28yo Arab gelding whose owner did all the clinics and worked with a Parelli certified trainer.
> 
> My old gelding was "trained" using Parelli. It took me almost six months to get him to stop climbing up my shoulder because he "spooked" at nothing and to stop pushing into my space constantly. His previous owners used only the parts of Parelli that were convenient for them, which included the "if the horse spooks or doesn't want to work, don't make him" mantra. Dakota learned that if he spooked, he got put away and didn't have to work, so he would find perceived threats to spook at so he could get out of doing anything. He literally spooked at a leaf being blown by on a light breeze one day. It took a firm hand and a lot of Come to Jesus meetings for him to go from the pushy, spooky, hot-headed horse I got him as to the calm, gentle, laid-back gelding that we used as a bareback lesson horse.
> 
> ...


This bit right here


the "if the horse spooks or doesn't want to work, don't make him" mantra. 


Is what tells me that whatever Parelli ever taught that was worth while, and Parelli is the stuff I learned, has gone and its all since been marketed to people who possibly know little about horses, have horses for fun, have the luxury of being able to have a horse that can sit in a paddock and do nothing and think horses are just pets. Not saying that everyone who likes Parelli's gear is that, but I think that's where the marketing is aimed and thus the training methods have been adapted to suit the sensibilities of the target market (that's my theory at least)

I can just imagine back when I was working in the cattle industry walking up to the boss in the morning and explaining I couldn't go to work because my horse hadn't given me permission to catch him.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> It's really hard to denote sarcasm in the written word. There are times I've posted things that I think are obviously meant as a joke, that have been taken at face value as well. Guess I'm not always as hilarious as I believe!


I guess that saying we should avoid other forum members and horse lovers would give the joke away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

AnrewPL said:


> I can just imagine back when I was working in the cattle industry walking up to the boss in the morning and explaining I couldn't go to work because my horse hadn't given me permission to catch him.


:rofl: Yes! I don't know what Parelli's original concept was, but this stuff about "when the horse allows it" is submitting to the horse. No bueno. We have to play the "lead mare" role, which means we tell the horse what to do all the time, just like the lead mares. It just makes more sense to tell people to watch herd dynamics and observe exactly who is calling the shots.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Pat Parelli, despite any negative thinking about him, has moved mountains in removing cruel training methods. I'm with Loosie about *Perceived Parelli Methods*. What an experienced horseman would glean from the information could be quite different from that of a novice.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

horseluvr2524 said:


> :rofl: Yes! I don't know what Parelli's original concept was, but this stuff about "when the horse allows it" is submitting to the horse. No bueno.


I suspect that too, is open to interpretation & I strongly suspect that it probably had a context that fit a situation, rather than being broad, general advice, as it sounds here.


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## ridingwild (Apr 8, 2014)

Parelli is a funny thing. The original concept is sound, but you often need to find your own way about it. As echoed above, research a number of trainers and find what works for you.

If you're interested in Parelli, check out the original "7 Games" video. I personally use versions of the first three, which include teaching your horse to move from pressure, and to accept touch without fear.

In the last decade or so Parelli has become its own ... I don't even know. I've known "Parelli" trainers whose horses are great, and I've known the opposite. The reality of it is that a good, researched trainer will get better results than someone who follows the methods of one trainer to a T. Every one is different.

There is no "One Right Way" to train, so try a few things and pick out what works. If you're looking to train your horse to be calm and respectful, focus on that. So many horse people I've known get caught up in tricks and whatnot because they think they need to, not because they really want to.

Good luck!


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

There is a big difference between training a horse (and watching them/their reactions to our actions) and merely playing games (as a person) and not understanding our impact. The handler must learn to read the horse's movement, not just shuffle them around (or run them w/o cessation as PP has done at some events).


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Nero1246 said:


> Thinking of doing Parelli with my horse.
> What do you think of it?
> Also what are the pros+cons?


Oh no! Not again (and again, and again, and again.....)

Save a LOT of time (for everyone else) and just do a search on here. There has been sooooooo much written about it (some even not so negative :lol:, but those are the exceptions).

If you can (and I realize that today it's a huge "if") find someone who:
1. Has not learned about horses from any of these "natural horsemanship" (oh what a bogus term) or teaches using a "canned' program/system that someone sells or runs actual classes on. (i.e. find an old timer or someone who learned under old timers with real life guidance and hands on experience)
2. Knows a variety of ways for teaching a horse to do something (they're each individuals and like people, they don't all learn the same).
3. Is willing to take the time to do it right (which means that if a horse doesn't respond to method one or two, then they take the time to try three and four.

In short, you're not going to find that in Parelli or most of these "buy my program" trainers (I can't say all since I honestly don't know them all....just the ones that get the most hype, but PP isn't the only one....just the one I personally know the most problems about).

If you look at old posts you'll be able to see LOADS of comments on Parelli (you could probably read for hours). You can also find things on Clint Anderson, M. R., etc, etc, etc,


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Look at any purely trained Parelli horse and se how bored it looks.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Saddlebag said:


> Pat Parelli, despite any negative thinking about him, has moved mountains in removing cruel training methods. I'm with Loosie about *Perceived Parelli Methods*. What an experienced horseman would glean from the information could be quite different from that of a novice.


You should have been at PP Catwalk demonstration. Talk about cruel methods (but of course we just didn't understand what we were seeing :shock::shock:...sorry Pat, but I know exactly what I'm seeing and I know you're so full of it that it was pouring out of your mouth). I started with my first horse before he started with his. Trained my first stallion before he did and I know exactly what he was doing (and why he was doing it....making excuses doesn't make it right).

I wouldn't let him touch one of mine.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Foxhunter said:


> Look at any purely trained Parelli horse and se how bored it looks.


I kind of agree. But when you know the horse started out a nervous wreck, and his owner was also a nervous wreck, then seeing them looking bored and ready to nap is good, really good!


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## loveconnemaras (May 17, 2014)

This has turned into a really interesting debate. I am new to this forum but I have using Parelli with most of our 20 horses for a number of years now. The ones that have played most of the 7 games are far easier to move around, trim feet and handle than the ones that haven't. 

I think that if you want to get into Natural Horsemanship with your horse then Parelli is a good place to start, although I don't think that the "program" emphasises enough in the beginning about the exact timing of your release when the horse moves, or enough about making everything a lighthearted game with lots of friendly in between rather than a task orientated do this/do that session.

There are probably better trainers of horses, and there are also probably better trainers of people. My view is that we can train our horses anyway we like. If we stop asking at the right moment the horse will learn. Years ago before I used Parelli, I rode an arab belonging to a friend. I asked him to rein back and as soon as he took a sort of backwards movement I stopped asking. When I asked again he willing took several backwards steps. He had understood what I wanted perfectly, and my friend said that she had never managed to get him to rein back before.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

itslbsnotmiles, Parelli made a mistake and he acknowledges that. Why is everyone so hard on him for that. He'd worked with the horse, off camera the night before and it was going well. He's under a lot of pressure when he's performing in public and it got to him. Have a little understanding.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

If one suffers from pressure while performing, one probably shouldn't subject a horse to the results of that suffering.


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

Everytime I see a Parelli thread, I say to myself "I won't look". I always end up looking.

I've said it before on other threads and I might as well say it now.

The two types of "name brand" horses I've gotten in for training are Amish and Parelli horses. They have been dealt so much damage that they need regular training to regain their sanity.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Saddlebag said:


> itslbsnotmiles, Parelli made a mistake and he acknowledges that. Why is everyone so hard on him for that. He'd worked with the horse, off camera the night before and it was going well. He's under a lot of pressure when he's performing in public and it got to him. Have a little understanding.


I have a lot of understanding.....for a horse and for people who really want to be successful with theirs. I have not respect for people who will not/cannot admit that what they did was wrong, doesn't work, isn't the best approach. All of which PP and LP are consistently guilty of.

Pat NEVER acknowledge that he made a mistake with the horse. He said he made a mistake with the audience (actually by letting them see it, but he said by not explaining what he was doing. :shock: How do you explain away doing something wrong? Easy if you're PP...you're right and everyone who doesn't think so just doesn't understand) To quote my ex British wife, which is why I was up to date on this...it was a big think in England ("they only show affection to dogs and horses" :lol "Pat is a legend in his own lunchtime".

You know I answer that same basic comment you had on an earlier thread. There's really no way you can call it an apology...it's damage control and not very good damage control at that.
(are you related to them or do you just think that as long as they concoct some form of comment so that it's "not their fault" then it's ok?)

For those who never saw the statement that Pat released about what he did with Catwalk I'll repost it. I can't call it an apology, except that he apologizes for letting people think he was doing something harmful to the horse (which he was so those people didn't need to be lied to....even if you've never worked with horses it was pretty obvious) and for not explaining that what he was doing was really ok (only in his eyes and those who blindly worship him).

You'll notice that he never acknowledges that he did something wrong. He will never admit to being wrong. His system and what he does is ALWAYS right according to him. It's the rest of the world that's wrong if we don't see it that way.

Pat Parelli's statement (complete with misspellings) following his Catwalk fiasco (I pulled it from an earlier post). Blue lettering are inserted comments:
"I can assure you that Parelli philosopy and methods never tolerate abuse of any kind and nobody works harder than I do to make the world a better place for horses. (_I guess it depends on what someone would classify as abuse. I would call it abuse._) 
First and foremost, I would like to apologize to the audience members that were confused by the demonstration methods that in the moment I chose to use on a horse that proved more diffcult (sic) than anyone ever expected. (_Note that he's NOT apologizing for what he did to the horse only to the poor ignorant spectators who are not smart enough to understand_) In hindsight, I realize that when the microphone fell off, I should have stopped the demonstration and talked to you about it. Some people had diffculty (sic) trusting me in this situation and for that I am sad and apologize for allowing confusion to evolve.
_(there's nothing confusing about it if you've worked with horses, but he loves to make out like if you disagree with him then you obviously don't understand horses and we're just "confused"_ :lol
In over 30 years of public problem-solving, this is without a doubt the most extreme horse I have ever had. In fact he ranks in the top 3 of all challenging horses in my experience. When dealing with any problematic situation I’m there first for the horse and taking care of what he needs. It became apparent that bridling and ear handling has been a very perplexing issue for *Catwalk* long before he came to his new owners, I had to prove to him that he did not need to fear it. (_how does making the horse more frightened to that?_) You have to be able to match the energy, not do more or less than the horse, and that takes passive persistence. You cannot rush or force it or you’ll push the horse over the edge. You just have to prove to him that no matter how long it takes, you would never go there. That’s when they finally trust you and some horses take longer than others. (_Ok, that's insulting :lol:. Let's see...a gum line, rope looped under the leg and attached to the halter, and this is "not do more than the horse"? It certainly isn't "passive persistence" and it did push the horse over the edge_) *Catwalk* surprised me because there were several times he gave me signs that he was changing, and then suddenly he would try another tactic."

Please note that he is not apologizing for doing anything wrong with the horse. Only that he let people think he wasn't doing what was right.

Basically Parelli "talks" a catching line, but as they say...."he talks the talk, but he doesn't walk the walk". Even his training system is designed so that if the horse doesn't respond to less then you do more and more and more until the horse does what you want (if it doesn't, then you have a problem horse).

Hey, with Parelli you don't even have to make the up B.S. It's right there in his training program. One of my favorite example wasn't even cut from the video he sells. Linda jerking and popping a lead to make a horse back up and doing nothing but making the situation worse. Then follows that up with stating that this was a problem horse that needs a lot of work. BS..just needs someone who knows what they're doing to calmly teach the horse what you want. Parelli's concept he's going to tell you to do something in Icelandic. If you don't do it he's going to yell it and if that doesn't work he's going to get in your face and scream it (I just hope you pick up Icelandic really quick). And if you can't figure out what he's saying then you're the problem.


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## Rideabighorse (Jan 12, 2014)

There is a lot of anti Parelli here. I don't know what there experience studying Parelli has been, but I suspect few to none of them have. My experience is that I started with horses late in life so I didn't have a lifetime to learn. I learned about Parelli before I got a horse so except for a few riding lessons Parelli is all I have done. I now have 3 horses. They all meet me at the gate and are very willing to do pretty much anything I ask. They are confident, not spookey, never try to stand on top of me. My horses are neither dull or bored. I can and do put little kids on them and turn them loose in an arena. I have worked with several friend's horses trailer loading them. Everybody has been pleased with my results. I have no idea what most of the previous posters were talking about with regards to Parelli training. None of them sounded like anything I have Parelli teach. My wife and I are mostly trail riders who ride in rope hackamores and often bareback. 
A lot of the posts on this forum are about horses that bite, kick, spook, or run over their owners. Horses that are PROPERLY taught Parelli don't do any of these things.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I am sure that the horses Copperhead gets in for training are hardly Parelli trained horses. They are horses who've been trained by people who think they are doing it. Huge difference. Everything we read and see is open to interpretation.


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

I ride a parelli trained horse. And I think the only reason why he's as good as good as he is is because he's sensitive. 
The gimmicks such as the "parelli pad" is ridiculous... you have to blow it up and supposedly the pad itself arranges to fit the horse properly. I'm not buying it-- literally. 

K gets away with a lot of **** from his owner simply because he's parelli trained. While he's not the worst of the worst, parelli hasn't done him much good, either.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Rideabighorse said:


> There is a lot of anti Parelli here. I don't know what there experience studying Parelli has been, but I suspect few to none of them have. My experience is that I started with horses late in life so I didn't have a lifetime to learn. I learned about Parelli before I got a horse so except for a few riding lessons Parelli is all I have done. I now have 3 horses. They all meet me at the gate and are very willing to do pretty much anything I ask. They are confident, not spookey, never try to stand on top of me. My horses are neither dull or bored. I can and do put little kids on them and turn them loose in an arena. I have worked with several friend's horses trailer loading them. Everybody has been pleased with my results. I have no idea what most of the previous posters were talking about with regards to Parelli training. None of them sounded like anything I have Parelli teach. My wife and I are mostly trail riders who ride in rope hackamores and often bareback.
> A lot of the posts on this forum are about horses that bite, kick, spook, or run over their owners. Horses that are PROPERLY taught Parelli don't do any of these things.



I agree. Done correctly, it can work. They just make it so complicated, with renaming everything and breaking it down into distinct "games" that are hard to see how they relate to riding at times. I think the people who best like Perrelli are persons who have not had prior riding training. I find it very slow and cumbersome.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Rideabighorse said:


> There is a lot of anti Parelli here. I don't know what there experience studying Parelli has been, but I suspect few to none of them have. My experience is that I started with horses late in life so I didn't have a lifetime to learn. I learned about Parelli before I got a horse so except for a few riding lessons Parelli is all I have done. I now have 3 horses. They all meet me at the gate and are very willing to do pretty much anything I ask. They are confident, not spookey, never try to stand on top of me. My horses are neither dull or bored. I can and do put little kids on them and turn them loose in an arena. I have worked with several friend's horses trailer loading them. Everybody has been pleased with my results. I have no idea what most of the previous posters were talking about with regards to Parelli training. None of them sounded like anything I have Parelli teach. My wife and I are mostly trail riders who ride in rope hackamores and often bareback.
> A lot of the posts on this forum are about horses that bite, kick, spook, or run over their owners. Horses that are PROPERLY taught Parelli don't do any of these things.


3 horses?
Keep at it with more horse and you start finding horses that are like Catwalk. Horses that do not respond to the Parelli way of doing things. Horses that will fight it (and you'll find that a 1,000+ lb animal that is fighting something can result in a dangerous situation). It's not that the horse is the problem (although that's the Parelli response). The problem is the horse not understanding what's being asked and a lack of having a better way to communicate on the part of Parelli. I've seen it first hand. Not by people who don't understand it or are not following Parelli correctly. Unless of course you're saying that Parelli doesn't understand their own method and do it wrong themselves (since it was Parelli I've watched do it). Which is why I'll never allow Parelli to mess with mine.

Yes, I do like to use the Catwalk fiasco as an example, because it is an excellent example, caught on video, of how Parelli really works. It shows how they talk up a way of dealing with horses, but certainly do not practice it except in cases where the horse picks up on it. I've seen what happens when the horse doesn't and how Parelli blames the horse by claiming the problem was the horse instead of admitting that the problem was not with the horse, but with how Parelli was approaching the training and how it was dealt with.

Parelli and his followers can make all the excuses they want. It just reinforces the obvious that the Parelli system is a poor system that creates as many problems as it does successes.

I did not get started late in life with horses. As the saying goes, "been there, got the T-shirt" many times over. It probably hasn't been 10 years since I first heard of Parelli. A lot a praising from people new to horses and so happy to find a "Natural" way train their horse (news flash: there's nothing natural to a horse about having a person ride them). Anyone tells you they have a system that works with any horse and doesn't have multiple ways of teaching a horse the same thing (because the horse might not respond well to the first method used), but relies on one "tick" for each thing being trained (and claims that when the system isn't working with a horse then the horse is the problem) doesn't know that they're talking about.

Catwalk makes a great lesson on what is NOT doing it correctly. My current youngest mare was every bit as bad as Catwalk with regard to her ears (which was the issue they were having). Today she'll lower her head to accept a halter or bridle to slid over her ears and yet I never had to use a gum line and bull the lead under her leg to try and control her head (and by default the rest of her). In case you're not familiar with the technique it's a very old one. It's used to force a horse into compliance, because it's more than just uncomfortable for the horse, it's painful, which is why people used it, because a horse will sometimes comply to avoid the pain. In the case of Catwalk he was not going to comply (not surprising for a stallion) and he had a lesion on his gum from it. All this done to a horse by a man who claims that he never does anything to hurt a horse.
No, you're free to believe whatever you like, but I believe what I've seen Parelli do (not people who practice or use Parelli) so there's no mistaking it as someone not following Parelli correctly. PP and LP are the ones I see doing it so think I can safely say that the Parelli system is not something I'll ever use or recommend. Things he says aren't all bad, but the saying it is not practicing it and they clearly do not practice it with horses that don't fall in line with what they do.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> I agree. Done correctly, it can work. They just make it so complicated, with renaming everything and breaking it down into distinct "games" that are hard to see how they relate to riding at times. I think the people who best like Perrelli are persons who have not had prior riding training. I find it very slow and cumbersome.


IDK, it's certainly an 'each to his own' thing & everyone learns differently, but I found having it broken down made it easier to understand... both for the horse & for me, & many 'newbies' I've loaned book & '7 Games' vids to. I do agree it is more for 'learners'... be that horses or people, & I start my horses in a similar manner still, and I so get how the 'games' apply very well to riding. To me that's like saying how does lunging or ground driving relate to riding.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

BTW, re the Catwalk thing, Linda's... rubbish, etc, there is NO excuse worthy for this type of thing IMO. You can't even call that Catwalk thing training. Breaking, in the worst sense of the word maybe... Seems the man maybe having a bit of an ego problem, can't possibly admit defeat... As I've said before, I reckon the original *principles*(I got into it about 25 years ago) are mostly sound & helpful to people learning... just from what I've seen in recent years especially, their behaviour(& instructors, students...) doesn't seem to be correlating with those principles so much any more.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

loosie said:


> BTW, re the Catwalk thing, Linda's... rubbish, etc, there is NO excuse worthy for this type of thing IMO. You can't even call that Catwalk thing training. Breaking, in the worst sense of the word maybe... Seems the man maybe having a bit of an ego problem, can't possibly admit defeat... As I've said before, I reckon the original *principles*(I got into it about 25 years ago) are mostly sound & helpful to people learning... just from what I've seen in recent years especially, their behaviour(& instructors, students...) doesn't seem to be correlating with those principles so much any more.


Oh boy, I get to expound :lol:

:lol: Granted, Linda should stay home (as if Pat doesn't have enough problems). While Pat has that easy, country boy way of talking that can make you feel at ease about what he's saying (and he does talk nicely), Linda just makes me want to check behind her head to see if there's an "off switch" or just be rude and leave. However, to be fair, Linda actually follows Pats training system at every point (scary isn't it). Pat advocates and does the same things. I think Linda must get more video time which makes her the more visible target when dealing with these horses. Of course Catwalk was one case where Pat finally got caught in the act and Linda didn't come into the picture until Pat needed help (for just one person it's tough using a gum line, with the lead pulled under the horse's leg, while still trying to achieve the goal of getting the bridle one).

For those who think that poor Pat is taking such a beating over the Catwalk fiasco (mostly the Parellie worshippers) and wonder why so many others make such a big issue out of it, I'll see if I can explain it. No one not experienced with using a gum line can just walk up and use it. I've dealt with a few horse (ok, but than a few :lol and while I've seen gum line used before (and have always found it disturbing and always thought less of the person using it) I couldn't just walk up and effectively use one. Pat was experienced with the techniques he used on Catwalk. There's only one way to have the experience and that's actually do it. I can promise you that the biggest thing Pat was sorry for was that what he did was caught on video. I'm also sure he's very glad that most of his worshippers aren't savvy enough to realize that he's had to be using these methods in order to know how to use them. (e.g. if an M-17 assault rifle was jamming after every few rounds and I walked up, field stripped it in seconds, fixed the problem, put it back together in seconds and fired a 30 round clip without it jamming would you believe I wasn't experienced at doing that?). So if you forget what Pat "says" and what wonderful things you might believe about it, and just look at the facts of what the Catwalk fiasco clearly and unquestionably demonstrates, you'll see that Pat isn't quite what he claims to be and is perfectly willing to use some old, unpleasant and painful methods of forcing compliance from a horse (he just leaves it out of his training program).

Pat still talks a good story on being nice about training horses, but his system is only good for a horse that picks up on it right off (and any system is good if the horse picks up on it). As my son says, "he's a one trick pony". He only has one way of doing it in a nice manner and it has to work that way or else.....


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I don't quite get the point of these "games". It does not make it more fun for the horse, they are still having to figure out what you want. It is still work for them. A game for a horse is running in the pasture with their buddies and bucking and rearing at each other, which we as humans do not want to participate in.

Ground driving, lunging, round pen work, etc. are all things that we are purposefully teaching a horse. Sure, gaining respect on the ground relates to saddle work, but these things are also useful tools for giving a horse exercise, training to drive, etc.

Playing games with your horse may help somewhat in establishing herd positions. However, it is not any more fun for the horse than traditional ground work, and these games are not useful for much else than having a horse that knows how to play games.

If you want to see real trick ponies, check out Cavalia. There is one trainer, I can't remember his name, but I watched a video of him on youtube and it was like watching magic. He truly has a special way with them, and he doesn't try to sell it as a product that everyone can do. Sorry, but I don't believe everyone can achieve the level that some do, for various reasons. I read up about him and he learned everything he knows on his own, through trial and error.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

This is the guy I was talking about. I would love to study his methods someday!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1YO3j-Zh3g


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Frederic moves with all the grace and elegance of a ballet dancer which adds to his dance with the horses.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

OK, just because *my* current attitude about it makes perfect sense to *me* ;-) I'm sure I'll come over to some all 'Parelli' for explaining, but before I do, I want to say, as we've discussed before lbs, I agree fully with you & perhaps the difference is more about how long ago I was 'into' Parelli & the skill & understanding I had at the time... As you know, I haven't been a 'fan'(as in short for fanatic, tho couldn't see that at the time...) for a couple of decades & haven't even kept up with much of what's going on with them in the last decade. I've also studied behavioural psychology, clicker training & many many other horsemanship trainers since, so I'm no doubt putting my own 'spin' on what I remember & understand as the principles...



horseluvr2524 said:


> I don't quite get the point of these "games". It does not make it more fun for the horse, they are still having to figure out what you want. It is still work for them. A game for a horse is running in the pasture with their buddies and bucking and rearing at each other, which we as humans do not want to participate in.


Firstly, I do indeed enjoy joining in with 'real' horse games.... so long as we've established safe rule & boundaries first ;-) But the principle behind the '7 games' is that it is using bodylanguage & 'games' horses use with eachother to get other horses to move. Calling them 'games' is a mindset thing, like 'carrot stick' etc, to get the *human* thinking about how to make things fun for the horse - & yes, indeed these 'games' can be fun. Just because so many turn them into as much as a drudge as 'mindless circles' etc, doesn't mean to say that's what it has to to be.



> Ground driving, lunging, round pen work, etc. are all things that we are purposefully teaching a horse. Sure, gaining respect on the ground relates to saddle work, but these things are also useful tools for giving a horse exercise, training to drive, etc.


Agreed. If the horse doesn't get how to yield to pressure, he's not desensitised to ropes around him, if he doesn't understand how to follow your bodylanguage, your 'cues', you ain't going to get far though.



> and these games are not useful for much else than having a horse that knows how to play games.


So you don't find a horse that understands how to yield to light pressure, directed at any part of his body to be useful?? You don't find a horse following your bodylanguage & being able to be 'driven' without physical pressure handy? You don't find a horse that's been desensitised & made comfortable about stuff helpful?? I think people forget that 'a rose by any other name...' good trainers tend to teach the horse these things, regardless of what they call it. Parelli may have invented the lables & marketed the ideas, put his 'spin' on it all, but they're not 'his'. They're not even 'natural horsemanship' necessarily, just *Good* horsemanship... assuming you perceive those terms separately.

JF Pignon & Lorenzo the Flying Frenchman, for some of my favourite inspirational egs ;-)


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

loosie said:


> So you don't find a horse that understands how to yield to light pressure, directed at any part of his body to be useful?? You don't find a horse following your bodylanguage & being able to be 'driven' without physical pressure handy? You don't find a horse that's been desensitised & made comfortable about stuff helpful?? I think people forget that 'a rose by any other name...' good trainers tend to teach the horse these things, regardless of what they call it. Parelli may have invented the lables & marketed the ideas, put his 'spin' on it all, but they're not 'his'. They're not even 'natural horsemanship' necessarily, just *Good* horsemanship... assuming you perceive those terms separately.
> 
> JF Pignon & Lorenzo the Flying Frenchman, for some of my favourite inspirational egs ;-)


Hmm, yes I suppose so. Most training methods are useful in one situation or another. However, I don't want my horse's mind on a treat, but on me.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^^How often does Parelli advocate treat training?? I know when I was learning, it was exactly never. Because at the time he believed horses couldn't learn with positive reinforcement. I won't go into this further here, except to say if you use treat training & you can't get your horse focused on YOU, something's not right ;-)

As an aside, when I was youtubing more Frederic & JF Pignon & the rest(thanks for causing me to waste more time on this machine! ;-) ), came across a vid that had lots of horrible egs, including lots of rollcur... & you'll never guess who I saw there?? Yep, Linda Parelli also practices rollcur!! Very effing natural!!


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I have seen some "lovely" parelli horses. One was so undisciplined, spoiled and only played games she became dangerous. She decided one day "i dont WANT to go on a ride today" and bucked after her owner said she had to, sending her to the hospital. The methods her owner used where basically to nag the horse until it did something. This mare thought EVERYTHING was a game. The mare tried to bite me at the hitching post one day (apparently it was my job to give MY horses feed to her), i smacked her on the nose and told her no (i dont care whos horse it is, it tries to bite me its getting smacked and i make sure everyone knows it). The mare looked like she was going to jump over the hitching rail and kill me. We did this back and forth about 3 times before i just left (Yeah i let the horse win but her owner was standing there and thought it was funny, I had better things to do than train someones horse for them). Apparently the "princess" did not like being told no so she was having a "hissy". I have had similar experiences with another parelli horse like that. That and first hand accounts from my friends dad (who was a big time trainer in ohio for years) told me "all he does is get people hurt" was enough for me. I stayed FAR away from his methods and after seeing what LOVELINESS is going on with his "training" im glad i did. 

I have watched both vids mentioned and i have a few things to say on both.

Catwalk.
The horse was head shy. He was NOT aggressive, not trying to rear or attack people, just did not want people messing with his head. Soooo Pat uses a TWITCH on him and ties up his leg. That would be the FIRST thing i do with a HEAD SHY horse (insert massive snark here). When i got my mare a friend twitched her ear to help me worm her. Took me 6 months before i could touch her ears without her trying to "defend herself". After playing some silly games i made up (like jump rope but with the lead and gently swinging it over the ears) and gently manhandling her face she is over it and likes her ears scratched, she still has head shy moments from past abuse but they are few and far between now. The ONLY thing pat accomplished is to further freak out an already nervous and head shy horse. Now the horse has a REASON to be head shy. Before it might have been a dislike of clippers, or lack of handling, now he will know when people come after his head bad things will happen to him. 

Linda and the one eyed horse.

Within the first 2 min of "training" i can see where they needed back off and reward the try. The horse tried. He even took a step back! But because he did not magically know he found the right answer (because no one told him he was right) she started yanking all over the poor horses face. At that point it was not positive or negative reinforcement, it was punishment. Punishment only decreases a behavior but increases avoidance. So yeah, the horse tooned out rather quickly because he wanted to run away. If a kid does a math problem and almost gets it you dont scream at him to go faster. He will get freaked out. If you keep screaming the kid is going to cry and try to get away from you. That is what happened to that horse. I am NOT a trainer, i dont even pretend to be, BUT if I can get a pushy disrespectful 17hh ottb mare to back up using the same method in less than 3 min, i think linda could have gotten that horse to back up within 5 if she was watching the horse. Keep in mind, the mare im talking about would rather race around me at full speed and kick my head off, then back up.


Personally i will take a little of something from everywhere. CA is currently working for my mare and its the easiest to get my hands on, im not as smack happy as he is (not if i want my arab to retain anything, hit her and i might as well have a wild mustang on the line). I like the concept of games but not to the extent of parelli. A game to my horse is free lunging but she listens to every command i give her including change of direction (figure 8s are fun), if she decides she doesn't want to "play" then it ON the lung line work and she get to do more than just stretch her legs. I like alot of what Ray hunt has to say, BUT all these other "natural horsemanship" people learnt FROM him so its basicly the same thing at this point. If it works, ill use it, it i think its cruel or too harsh, i wont. common sense is my rule of thumb with that.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

loosie said:


> IDK, it's certainly an 'each to his own' thing & everyone learns differently, but I found having it broken down made it easier to understand... both for the horse & for me, & many 'newbies' I've loaned book & '7 Games' vids to. I do agree it is more for 'learners'... be that horses or people, & I start my horses in a similar manner still, and I so get how the 'games' apply very well to riding. To *c m eu that's like saying how does lunging or ground driving relate to riding.*




Lunging Parelli style doe not relate to riding as well as it should. I do not get the logic behind standing still in the middle and have your horse go around you, behind you and. all. To me , when I stop my body, it s like when riding my seat has stopped, and that means my horse should stop his body, too, not continue on auto pilot. When I lunge, I look for the horse to be looking for me, and putting a bend in his body. The way I move around the circle is how I want him to move. My body is there for him to mirror. Not just standing disconnected and sending with nothing but hand signals but a stock still body.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

YES!!! people say your horse should go around you and you should stand still. But that is my signal to stop. When i stop, she stops. When i point she goes where i point and we start. The bigger my circle, the bigger hers is, the smaller mine is, the closer she is (i free lunge, its easier for her to "run" herself out and gives her more room, but she will come back to me when i ask her too, so i dont have a line to move her in and out with). Many people disagree with me, but then the same people are impressed with the amount of control i have over her off line. Glad im not the only one  who sees this.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

loosie said:


> ^^How often does Parelli advocate treat training?? I know when I was learning, it was exactly never. Because at the time he believed horses couldn't learn with positive reinforcement. I won't go into this further here, except to say if you use treat training & you can't get your horse focused on YOU, something's not right ;-)
> 
> As an aside, when I was youtubing more Frederic & JF Pignon & the rest(thanks for causing me to waste more time on this machine! ;-) ), came across a vid that had lots of horrible egs, including lots of rollcur... & you'll never guess who I saw there?? Yep, Linda Parelli also practices rollcur!! Very effing natural!!


Loosie, you're such a softy , just say it anyway.
(for those who think it's a routine, where Loosie puts things out here for me to expound on, your mistaken :lol:. While we might agree a great deal and "talk off line", it's purely happen-chance that we provide each other material to expound on)

I've never seen Parelli advocate using anything but the "removal" as a reward either. Still goes by the concept that the reward is stopping whatever you were doing to get the horse to do something is the reward for the horse responding as desired. Not that this concept isn't useful and effective in many areas of training (it is) and not that it's not a natural method (horses use it on each other). It's probably one of the most obscenely old training tools known to man and for many things it works extremely well.
All that aside, it does not (perhaps I should say cannot) work for all things. There are things that you cannot use "removal of 'pressure'" as the reward, but you need to provide a reward (and many things can qualify as a reward) so that the horse knows that what was done was what you desired and to reinforce it until it becomes the norm.

Now the example I'm going to use won't apply to everyone. The vast majority of riders do not do the kind of riding I do. I've yet to see a member of the Parelli crowd doing it (but there are horses that just handle it well, so there could be some). If your riding is limited to an arena, fenced in area or hauling your horse to a place set up from trail riding, then this is not going to apply to you.
I ride on the road (the highway, with cars, horse killing motorcycles, load hauling trucks that devour horses.....these are how horses often perceive some of these things :lol. To use the Parelli method, if my horse doesn't get nervous and try to run away then I reward it by removal (or stopping). That would mean I'd have to leave the road as the reward. Unfortunately that teaches my horse that if it does what I want I'll get it off the road and away from these "monsters", which is exactly what I'm not going to do. It has to learn that they're not going to hurt it and we are going to keep going so there will be even more of them to deal with. Teaching this does not require the removal of a negative as a reward for the positive (I can't remove the traffic). The negative is never going to end when you ride the road and they have to come to terms with that. The reward is something positive to reward a positive action in response to the negative which is going to continue and neither you or the horse has any control over, but will have to deal with regularly.
I'm not sure how Parelli would even teach that since none of my "Parelli" friends (yes I have friends who really like Parelli, but many are discovering that they are better off just using bits and pieces of Parelli for some things and something different for other things....the problems become noticeable and they're smart enough to fall back on better ways of doing something....or asking someone who knows a better way).

Anyway, that's a LONG winded way of saying that there are things that giving an actual reward (rather than removal) is the most effect means of teaching and getting the horse to do what is needed. But as I said earlier, if you just ride in secured spaces or set trails then you might never need to move into something more advanced (meaning something that requires a horse to overcome a lot of natural fear) and the removing the negative to reward a positive might work for the things you need to teach. I've always had to require more from my horses, so that was never an option. :lol: Before I had a drivers license a horse was my transportation as well as "working tool" (working with livestock) and even after I was driving, but didn't have a car, it was still often my transportation lol: there really is something about riding out to your girlfriends house). I'd go nuts if I couldn't get out and ride the roads when I wanted.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I do both Tiny. When I'm standing in the middle & want the horse to go, I have 'energetic' bodylanguage still, for my horse to 'read' & when I relax they do too. I also ground drive & 'lunge' from beside the horse. My idea is that I want my horse to 'listen' to my bodylanguage & do as I request wherever I am in relation to them.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Wish I got a picture yesterday lbs, of my 2 horses(one new, first time out) grazing beside a working excavator. Young guy was rather worried, but looked to my other horse & I & decided it wasn't as bad as it looked!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Oh Lbs, interesting you have noted Parelli still doesn't believe in +R. I have seen a vid of Linda using treats (with INCREDIBLY bad timing...) & explaining how it works. I've also seen an article in a friend's mag, where a Parelli student was amazed that he had started using treats, because that was 'right' for his 'left brain extrovert' or some such, was teaching his horse something using treats & how clever Parelli training had made his horse, that when he was tardy about reinforcing with a treat, his horse actually performed another trick of his own accord! Who would have guessed....


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

I was going to ask the OP "Why Parelli? What are you looking for, or hoping to achieve using his program?" But after 22 days and 6 pages of posts, without the OP responding to what has already been written, I won't hold my breath that my question will be answered.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Wish I could find the pic of a whole herd of 2-3 year olds "playing" with the bulldozer working in their pasture. Drove the guy nuts, especially when one of them reached in and stole his lunch while he was taking a break.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

loosie said:


> Oh Lbs, interesting you have noted Parelli still doesn't believe in +R. I have seen a vid of Linda using treats (with INCREDIBLY bad timing...) & explaining how it works. I've also seen an article in a friend's mag, where a Parelli student was amazed that he had started using treats, because that was 'right' for his 'left brain extrovert' or some such, was teaching his horse something using treats & how clever Parelli training had made his horse, that when he was tardy about reinforcing with a treat, his horse actually performed another trick of his own accord! Who would have guessed....


He very well could be doing it now since what I actually saw was about 4 or 5 years ago and the only training material I've seen, that a friend had, must have been at least 5 years old when I looked at it a few years ago (can you tell that I don't keep up with Parelli :lol. If he is than I'm glad to see that he's finally realizing something that even the US Cav knew 100 years ago (if you read the old Cav manuals they actually discuss rewarding, which can be simply stroking the neck and vocal praise, and how/when to use it and not to use it). Which is a little scary that the Army was doing something right. My grandfather claimed that it didn't happen often :lol: and my personal experience confirmed that.

Yes, it's amazing how motivated a horse can become when it comes to earning a reward. My younger one isn't bad about waiting to find out what she's suppose to do, but the older one at times will try to anticipate what I want and do it, do what I'm having the younger one do or even randomly pick something she thinks might get my attention and a reward for her.

Linda had bad timing? Not doing something right? Surely not. Not Linda :rofl: (should we make a list?). Ok, let me be nice (I can be you know :lol and come up good reasons for it (better than ones Pat gives....I won't say you don't understand and are confused, because they really know what they're doing and we, the unwashed, just don't know). Linda and Pat are new to this. They've never done it so their timing is going to be off. With some time, luck and if their ego can manage to deflate enough to let them learn from someone else (oops, sorry, that wasn't "nice" ) they'll hopefully, eventually, figure out how to time it (before confusing the horse too much I hope).
Hey, I'll give credit where credit is do. While he's not admitting that he said before wasn't exactly right (let's not ask for too much now), by doing it he is, by default, admitting that it does work and he that he was, "by default", mistaken in what he'd been teaching about rewards for decades. (See I said it nicely )

Gee, I wonder what's next? Will they move on to how to train horses for riding the highways, dealing with traffic, crossing bridges, etc, etc.... I'm not sure I'd want that just yet. I'd be afraid to see how he'd approach it.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

its lbs not miles said:


> Gee, I wonder what's next? Will they move on to how to train horses for riding the highways, dealing with traffic, crossing bridges, etc, etc.... I'm not sure I'd want that just yet. I'd be afraid to see how he'd approach it.


It was probably at least 5 years ago that I saw the friend's mag & vid re 'treat training', so perhaps they're better at it now. The vid was linda demo-ing in a roundpen & she said something like "See that?! That was exactly what I wanted so quick! Someone give me a treat for her, before the moment passes":-|

But back to your bit I quoted above... I find it interesting to see people's comments like this & saying that Parelli-trained horses are undisciplined & 'rude', as much of what I got from it 20 years ago was about desensitising to 'scaries'(getting the prey animal to trust & team up with a predator...) & teaching 'manners'(yielding, responsibilities, etc). Tho I am a stickler for manners, and I do like to find things & situations to challenge ourselves, so perhaps I was just more that way inclined than many.... 

Not sure if I've told it on the forum or to you already lbs, but having the above experience/view of 'parelli trained', you could have knocked me down with a feather when a friend of a friend who is actually a newly qualified Parelli instructor was invited on a ride with us but didn't want to go where we'd planned because her horse(no, not a new horse for her or such) 'can't do bridges' because it is terrified of them!! :shock::lol:


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

As I was saying earlier, I'd love to study Frederic Pignon and Cavalia training. Then I found this video of a clinic he did last year (one of his first clinics ever I think). I found it very insightful and helpful, especially when the horse takes off at the end of the video and how he recaptures his attention. Unfortunately there is this back aisle to the turnout/arena (I am looking at fencing it off) and my mare will run off to this corner in free lunging. After watching him recapture the horse's attention, I tried it on my own and was surprised how well it works. I've even applied these ideas to working with my parrots and have found them much more receptive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThRdC4iOOCs

Not parelli I know, but I was just expanding on a previous post :wink:


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