# Western Dressage



## Horsel02 (Jan 6, 2010)

What are your thoughts on starting dressage for western riders. All I know is that people are talking about starting this up. They do not have a website yet but that is in the works.

International Federation of Western Dressage in the United States we will inspire, encourage interest in, and regulate Western competition by ensuring the safety and well-being of horses, regardless of value or competitive level; ensure the enforcement of fair and equitable rules and procedures up to and including the inclusion for the Olympic Games; and, endeavor to advance the level of horsemanship internationally.

Our mission is to govern the Western Dressage in compliance with the laws of the United States and the Constitution and Bylaws of the United States Olympic Committee (USOC), and in addition, to provide vision and leadership to Western Dressage in the United States, to promote the pursuit of excellence in Western Dressage from junior and grass roots programs to international Western Dressage competitions. To accomplish this mission, our members and staff, working together will:

1) Hold an international competition in the U.S. or to sponsor U.S. amateur athletes to compete in international competition outside the U.S. and determine whether to grant such sanction.

2) Work together with the FEI in its mission to protect competition horses from any form of abuse, extend the universality of equestrian sport, and promote its visibility to the public.

(3) Protect and support the welfare of horses by inspecting, monitoring and testing to deter use of forbidden substances and other cruel, unsafe and/or unsportsmanlike practices and by adopting and enforcing rules to prohibit such practices.

4) Provide a body of rules with which to govern Western Dressage at the national level, along with an effective means of enforcing them, and a judicial process that is fair to competitors while providing for optimum integrity within the sport.

5) Encourage and support amateur athletic sports programs for disabled and/or handicapped individuals and the participation of disabled and/or handicapped individuals in amateur athletic activity, including, where feasible, the expansion of opportunities for meaningful participation by disabled and/or handicapped individuals in programs of athletic competition for able-bodied individuals.

6) Develop interest and participation in Western Dressage throughout the United States and work with affiliate associations, breed and discipline organizations, and other organizations to encourage participation.

7) Coordinate the calendar of competitions to assure FEI level competitive opportunities domestically; enhance the level of national competition in all FEI Western Dressage and provide for varying levels of regional and national competition to increase the breadth and depth of the sport throughout the country.

8) Train and license officials.

9) Establish national goals and encourage attainment of those goals.

10) Provide equitable support and encouragement for participation by women and minorities.


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## Horsel02 (Jan 6, 2010)

*Preliminary Guidelines for Western Dressage*


Western Dressage is defined as training and developing the Western rider and horse to improve themselves as individuals and as partners through the use and discipline of dressage. By using classical Dressage principles the Western Dressage rider improves cadence, balance and carriage of the horse.
The Western Dressage horse becomes more supple and flexible as it moves up the levels of Western Dressage working more off its hindquarters allowing for increasing lightness of the forehand and encouraging a natural head carriage. There are a few points of difference between Western Dressage and regular Dressage, most arising from the use of Western tack. The description of the gaits is virtually identical but the Western Dressage horse must maintain “ridability” for the rider in a Western saddle. The rider’s position will also be somewhat different from that of a regular Dressage rider because of the Western saddle. The use of hands will appear somewhat different because of the Western bit; the Western Dressage horse should be “working on and accepting the bit”.
The following comments are intended to assist the Dressage judge:
GAITS: Walk: A gait of “four-time”. The horse, while remaining on the bit walks energetically but calmly with even and determined steps. Upon extension, the horse covers as much ground as possible without losing regularity of steps; in collection, the horse moves resolutely forward with shorter yet regular strides showing self carriage. No mixing of gaits. Jog/Trot: A slow steady, two-beat trot with engagement and impulsion from the rear with a lesser need to cover more ground than at the Trot. No mixing of gaits. Mixing of gaits refers to patterns of foot movements/footfalls that are not true to the Walk,
Jog/Trot or Lope. While the need for extreme suspension and thrust is not required, the movement should be elastic with lift. The horse should be energetic and supple and always move without hesitation demonstrating relaxation of back, engagement of the hindquarters while remaining on the bit. As horse develops, and upon extension, will lengthen his steps. Upon collection, hocks are well engaged with energetic impulsion enabling the shoulders to move with lighter ease. Because the reins on a curb bit are held alike and in one hand, guiding the horse must be through the seat of the rider and the subtle use of his leg(s); the horse’s body must follow the path of the movement.
Lope: A gait of “three-time”. The lope is light, cadenced with regular strides while remaining on the bit. Upon extension, the horse goes with free, light, balanced, moderately extended and balanced strides. With collection, the stride is shorter and there is more engagement of the hindquarters with more lightness of the forehand. No mixing of gaits.
BASIC POSITION: The stirrup should be just short enough to allow heels to be lower than toes. Body should appear comfortable, relaxed, and flexible. Feet should be placed in the stirrups with the weight on the ball of the foot. Consideration, however, should be given to the width of the stirrups, which vary on Western saddles. If stirrups are wide, the foot may have the appearance of being home when, in reality, the weight is being properly carried on the ball of the foot.
All movements should be obtained without apparent effort of the rider. He should be well balanced with his loins and hips supple, thighs and legs steady and well stretched downward. The upper part of the body should be easy, free, and erect. The seat, as well as the hands and legs, is of great importance in Western Dressage. The rider who understands how to contract and relax his loin muscles at the right moment is able to influence his horse correctly.
USE OF HANDS One Hand - In repose, arms are in a straight line with body, and the one holding the reins is bent at the elbow. Only one hand is to be used for reining and hands shall not be changed. Hand to be around reins. When ends of split reins fall on near side, one finger between the reins is permitted. When using romal or when ends of split reins are held in hand not used for reining, no finger is allowed between the reins. Rider may hold romal or end of split reins to keep from swinging and to adjust the position of reins, provided there are at least 16 inches of rein between the hands. If a romal is used, hands are to be above the horn and as near to it as possible. Bracing against horn or coiled riata will be penalized.
Two Hands – Hands should be low and close together without touching each other or the horse, and with the thumb as the highest point. The elbows and arms should be close to the body, forming a reasonably straight line from the rider’s elbow to the horse’s mouth enabling the rider to follow the movements of the horse smoothly and freely and to apply his aids imperceptibly. This is the only position that makes it possible for the rider to school his horse progressively and correctly.
“ON THE BIT” AND HEAD CARRIAGE Western Dressage horses are not shown with a hanging loop rein; the rider has a "light" contact with the horse's mouth. The horse must show acceptance of the bit with a quiet mouth and a willingness to maintain light but steady contact with no resistance. The seat and legs ride the horse forward into a "receiving" hand. The horse must take the contact on the hand, not the rider taking the contact on the horse. The use of hands on reins will actually vary from horse to horse depending on their level of "finish" but "constant bumping of the bit" and "a gaping mouth" are considered major faults. The emphasis is on a quiet mouth with head carriage that reflects the degree of collection and appropriate balance for the individual horse.
"Good hands" are a rarity in any discipline but are very, very highly valued in Western Dressage. The concept of a "gentle correction" followed by an immediate very slight release of rein pressure is hard to learn but when coupled with a slight half halt the result is a lovely, soft carriage of the head and neck and a happy acceptance of the Western bit.
The head carriage of the Western Dressage Horse is the result of the horse carrying his entire body in balance. Overall head and neck carriage should be in relationship to the individual’s natural conformation, showing the proper flexion of the poll and lightness of mouth achieved through proper training techniques which allow the horse to move in total balance and harmony. Judges should severely penalize any horse that carries its head below the withers or behind the vertical. Pulling, jigging, gapping, teeth grinding, and any other behavior that indicates an attitude that is not happy should be severely penalized.
A proper head carriage of the Western Dressage horse should give evidence of flexion at the poll with the front of the face being slightly ahead of or on a vertical plane to the ground. A horse showing at the lower levels of western dressage may carry its head somewhat ahead of the vertical showing a bit more relaxation and giving the overall impression of an individual just beginning in the discipline. The horse should be at or in front of the vertical at all times. Being behind the vertical is to be more penalized than a horse that is ahead of the vertical.
The manner in which the horse carries the bit also deserves attention. Ideally, he should pick the bit up and carry it quietly and comfortably in his mouth throughout all gaits with a minimum of adjustment on his part. Many curb bits have copper rollers, or “crickets,” on the port which are to encourage a horse to use his tongue and keep a flow of saliva going to ensure a responsive mouth. When a horse uses this roller in a normal manner, he should not be penalized for being fussy or nervous in the mouth as he is doing exactly what the bit was designed for. An overly anxious horse will display more obvious symptoms than just rolling the cricket and can easily be distinguished from the horse using the cricket properly.
In summation, the way the horse carries the bit and responds to the hands of the rider is of more importance than the height placement of his head and neck as it relates to his individual conformation. Horses should be faulted for gaping of the mouth, pulling or lugging down on the bit, cocking their heads in either direction, trying to evade or “spit out” the bit, constantly opening and closing the mouth, tossing the head, etc. A bleeding mouth results in elimination.
SADDLERY: Bits: Snaffle bits meeting the requirements of MO132.3 may be used on any horse in Basic and Training Level tests. The rider must use two hands with a snaffle bit. The use of a curb bit meeting the requirements of MO132.2 may be used on any horse of any age at either level. Riders may use either one or both hands with the curb bit but may not switch back and forth within the same test. Hackamores and cavessons are not permitted in any level in any test.
Saddle: any standard Western Stock Saddle to be used. (Silver equipment will not count over a good working outfit) Warm-up: Restrictions in warm-up areas are similar to the open Dressage (DR) Division rules other than saddlery. For specific restrictions refer to MO189 ATTIRE: Refer to Morgan Western Pleasure Appointments and Attire --MO132 TESTS: Calling of tests is permitted regardless of test or level.


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## Horsel02 (Jan 6, 2010)

Sorry for all the post but I really think that it is a cool idea to have. I enjoy watching dressage and I also like how complex it is but I do not want to show in it. I was wondering what are your thoughts on this.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

I definantly love the concept...Im not sure about the bit concepts though. A western horse, IMO, should carry the bit *with* a looping rein. rule #11 states that constant light contact is necessary. Shanked bits arent made for constant contact. I think that could be troublesome. 

#17 is another concern. Curb bits shouldn't really ever be ridden with two hands. And a young horse just learning the concept of 'western dressage' and collection would traditionally wear a bosal for its first year. In these rules, that wouldnt be allowed. 

A very interesting concept. I would certainly love to compete!


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## Horsel02 (Jan 6, 2010)

corinowalk said:


> I definantly love the concept...Im not sure about the bit concepts though. A western horse, IMO, should carry the bit *with* a looping rein. rule #11 states that constant light contact is necessary. Shanked bits arent made for constant contact. I think that could be troublesome.
> 
> #17 is another concern. Curb bits shouldn't really ever be ridden with two hands. And a young horse just learning the concept of 'western dressage' and collection would traditionally wear a bosal for its first year. In these rules, that wouldnt be allowed.
> 
> A very interesting concept. I would certainly love to compete!


From what I have heard I do not think the rules a finalized. I think these are just a basic idea what might be asked. I am with you I would like to compete in this as well.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

From the sound of it, it sounds incredibly similar to how a true bridle horse is handled after it is fully trained to the spade bit. They are the most 'on the bit' horses you can find in any western discipline (good ones anyway), and you will never find a horse with a lighter mouth. While dressage is cool, IMHO, there is nothing more beautiful than a well trained bridle horse showing his stuff.

While this one is a very long way from the best I have ever seen, he is still a pretty nice horse.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Western Dressage = Reining. Which is recongnized by the FEI.


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## Waybueno (Jun 13, 2010)

Agreed with NRHAreiner


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> Western Dressage = Reining. Which is recongnized by the FEI.


 I agree 110%! 

But i do think Western dressage would be cool, but they should call it Wessage, lol thats what a girl at my barn calls it when i ride with a western saddle or bridles and some kkind of other english tack, lol. :lol:


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

nrhareiner said:


> Western Dressage = Reining. Which is recongnized by the FEI.


Yup!


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## GreyRay (Jun 15, 2010)

Reining is not Dressage.
There are some EXTREME differences...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Ofcourse there are differences, otherwise they wouldn't have different names. But, reining and dressage are both VERY VERY similar.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

GreyRay said:


> Reining is not Dressage.
> There are some EXTREME differences...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And dressage is not reining. It is not done in a western saddle. What they are proposing it just ludicrous. It is not something that would be at the Olympic level. It takes a lot of work for a discipline to get there. It would like taking and saying English reining. Those rules from skimming through them are just stupid. They are trying to take a English discipline and put western take and apply English rules with bits and how a horse is to be ridden. Western horses are ridden with Leverage bits on loose rein one handed. That is the point of it all. There is a reason behind it too. Something these people seem to be forgetting. You can not slap a beak on a pig and call it a duck.


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## Waybueno (Jun 13, 2010)

GreyRay said:


> Reining is not Dressage.
> There are some EXTREME differences...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


NOBODY said it was, we were stating that it is LIKE a western version of dressage. Having this "western dressage" is just like having reining, which is already a horse sport, and is pretty much the western version of dressage.


*Dressage* (pronounced /ˈdrɛsɑːʒ/ or /drɨˈsɑːʒ/) (a French term, most commonly translated to mean "training") is a path and destination of competitive horse training, with competitions held at all levels from amateur to the Olympics. Its fundamental purpose is to develop, through standardized progressive training methods, a horse's natural athletic ability and willingness to perform, thereby maximizing its potential as a riding horse. At the peak of a dressage horse's gymnastic development, it can smoothly respond to a skilled rider's minimal aids by performing the requested movement while remaining relaxed and appearing effortless. Dressage is occasionally referred to as "Horse Ballet". Although the discipline has ancient roots, dressage was first recognized as an important equestrian pursuit in Europe during the Renaissance. The great European riding masters of that period developed a sequential training system that has changed little since then. Classical dressage is still considered the basis of trained modern dressage.


*Reining* is a western riding competition for horses where the riders guide the horses through a precise pattern of circles, spins, and stops. All work is done at the lope (a slow, relaxed version of the horse gait more commonly known worldwide as the canter) and gallop; the fastest of the horse gaits. Reining is often described as a Western form of dressage riding, as it requires the horse to be responsive and in tune with its rider, whose aids should not be easily seen, and judges the horse on its ability to perform a set pattern of movements. The horse should be willingly guided or controlled with little or no apparent resistance and dictated to completely. A horse that pins his ears, conveying a threat to his rider, refuses to go forward, runs sideways, bounces his rear, wrings his tail in irritation or displays an overall poor attitude is not being guided willingly, and is judged accordingly.[1]

_I see some similarities. _


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## Tasia (Aug 17, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> And dressage is not reining. It is not done in a western saddle. What they are proposing it just ludicrous. It is not something that would be at the Olympic level. It takes a lot of work for a discipline to get there. It would like taking and saying English reining. Those rules from skimming through them are just stupid. They are trying to take a English discipline and put western take and apply English rules with bits and how a horse is to be ridden. Western horses are ridden with Leverage bits on loose rein one handed. That is the point of it all. There is a reason behind it too. Something these people seem to be forgetting. You can not slap a beak on a pig and call it a duck.


I agree.


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## Zeke (Jun 27, 2010)

Ok at first I got visions of traditional Dressage horses and riders simply switching to a Western Saddle and still attempting Piaffes and and Canter Pirouettes, basically doing the same thing they always do...and I giggled a little. 

Would high level "Western" Dressage horses and riders be expected to do maneuvers like I previously mentioned? Is that how they are setting themselves apart from reining?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

From skimming what was posted they are taking western take and trying to put English riding principle in there. Like keeping the horse on the bit. This is the total opposite of what you want with a western horse. The western horse should be ridden on a loose rein and the direction of the horse should come from the seat and legs.

From reading this it almost seems like someone who has too much time on their hands and is trying to re invent the wheel.


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## BarrelRacer86 (Jul 6, 2010)

I agree with all this, it's basically trying to re invent reining with english concepts.

And Reining and Dressage are similar


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

We have a fellow rider at our stables who rides western dressage with western renning not english typical two hands. He has many trophies and is a joy to watch. He uses a curb bit. If you watch some of the old Roy Rogers movies and shows you will see he also rode western dressage as well did many other past riders. We had a conversation just about that at the stable about a month agol


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

I grew up watching this type of ridding and learned that way, I don't understand the sloppy way western is being ridden today not even the plow renning.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

And I'm in my 60's


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

nrhareiner said:


> From skimming what was posted they are taking western take and trying to put English riding principle in there. Like keeping the horse on the bit. This is the total opposite of what you want with a western horse. The western horse should be ridden on a loose rein and the direction of the horse should come from the seat and legs.
> 
> From reading this it almost seems like someone who has too much time on their hands and is trying to re invent the wheel.


Agree totally. :?


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

nrhareiner said:


> From reading this it almost seems like someone who has *too much time on their hands* and is trying to re invent the wheel.


I agree!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

From watching that video that looks a lot like what I do with my young horses. Just a nice warm up before you start into the real work.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

No one is reinventing the wheel western dressage goes back older then me and is not to be confused with english dressage and I'm over 60. Another thing ridding loose reing is ok in the arena but on trail it's the best way I know of if you want to get your neck broken.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

In fact I knew a girl who did just that and lost control of her horse ran into a branch and spent 17 years in a coma


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Hm :?. Part of western riding is knowing that your horse is trained enough to ride on a loose rein. I have been riding that way all my life and have yet to ever lose control of a horse once it was actually trained. If a horse won't respond on a loose rein, then it's a training problem, not a loose rein problem.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

When on a trail all the best trainning in the world won't help you if your in an area like ours and never know what you will come up against or will come up on you including cyotes and roug stag deer. I have even seen a very trained seasoned trail horse go nuts after being stung by a bee.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

I agree the direction should come from the leg no problem with that but a lack of control at the bit is like driving a car with no brakes.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Well, then, I guess we should all stick in the arena where it's "safe".:roll:

If a person can't ride well enough to take the slack out of the reins only when needed, then they probably _should_ stick with the arena.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

I ride with some slack but not so their pushing peanuts with that much slack there is to much rein to collect when trouble does strike. I never ment a tight rein just enough so they know who is in control but loose at the bit. I see so many youngens ridding with no control they would kill themselves on a trail. I'm sorry if I'm confusing everyone. It's not about having a tight hold on the bit but gathered reins.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

Out here we also have to ride the roads a lot and there busy with people who like to make a lot of noise comming up on horses. Some horses even well trained will jump at an unexpected horn or backfire. I had a real nice quiet well trained Quarter the one day when we were out ridding had such a thing happen and he jumped sideways over a guard rail. If I had not had my reins collected enough we both would have been in big trouble we landed in a rocky wooded revine area and another riders horse was all over the road. This was a 4 lane highway and our horses were used to riding it every day.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

smrobs said:


> Well, then, I guess we should all stick in the arena where it's "safe".:roll:
> 
> If a person can't ride well enough to take the slack out of the reins only when needed, then they probably _should_ stick with the arena.


I agree. I have been trail riding longer then I have been reining and all my reiners trail ride. I have always ridden with a lose rein even when I trail ride my stallion. Reins are not like brakes on a care or a steering wheel. They are just there if and when needed and the better trained the horse the less you should need them.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Eileen said:


> Out here we also have to ride the roads a lot and there busy with people who like to make a lot of noise comming up on horses. Some horses even well trained will jump at an unexpected horn or backfire. I had a real nice quiet well trained Quarter the one day when we were out ridding had such a thing happen and he jumped sideways over a guard rail. If I had not had my reins collected enough we both would have been in big trouble we landed in a rocky wooded revine area and another riders horse was all over the road. This was a 4 lane highway and our horses were used to riding it every day.


Not sure how having the reins tight or with very little slack had anything to do with you controlling your horse or keeping you on him.


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## Zeke (Jun 27, 2010)

Eileen, we get it. When riding trail one should not be riding with reins as loose as say a WP rider might(in regards to your mention of peanut rolling). It can be unsafe in many situations and could end badly. 

In a show ring however, a western horse is expected to travel nicely on a loose rein. This thread after all is arguing disciplines IN an arena, not out on trail. To me, asking for this type of contact on the bit would require Western riders trying Western dressage to stray from classic Western bits towards something made more for contact like say, an English type bit? When we start changing bits and the way we use them that blurs the line between English and Western (sorry if i make no sense, ignore me then) is this what we want?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Zeke said:


> To me, asking for this type of contact on the bit would require Western riders trying Western dressage to stray from classic Western bits towards something made more for contact like say, an English type bit? When we start changing bits and the way we use them that blurs the line between English and Western (sorry if i make no sense, ignore me then) is this what we want?


To me changing bits is not a hard or even bad thing. All my horses will work the same no matter what bit is used. That is not my objection. I do not like contact on a bit. In western is it not needed or really wanted. 

Again to me this looks like re inventing the wheel. Although it might have been around for years I personally have never heard if it as a discipline. I have heard of things that fall under this name as fun shows and such to get western riders to try Dressage. Although I am sure I have not heard of every discipline that exists out there as there are so many.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

Right ever been at a show where mares were up and studs pending and the stud got loose? I have and was that was about 40 years ago and the people still talk about it today. It is never wise to leave that much control to the horse.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

oops I've been going back and forth for some time on this thing I think I've been posting the trail riding one on this one and my dressage ones on the trail riding ones. Please forgive me this is only my second day on this website.
No wonder my answers didn't seem to fit.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

I still love western dressage and done right is control with body not hands and bits you are so right.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Eileen said:


> Right ever been at a show where mares were up and studs pending and the stud got loose? I have and was that was about 40 years ago and the people still talk about it today. It is never wise to leave that much control to the horse.



Been showing stallions and mares for years never had one get loose or run off with me on them and although horses (not just stallions) get loose from where my where tied it is a very very very rear that it happens under saddle and if and when it does it does not matter how tight you have your reins.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Here is a clip I found of a "Western Dressage" demo. To me it looks like the only thing western about it is his hat and the song. He is using a Dressage saddle snaffle bit and has the horse so on the bit it is not funny. Fine for Dressage but not any western discipline I have ever seen or been in.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Here is anouther one. Again it looks like Dressage using a western saddle. The horse is still what looks like in a snaffle and on the bit way too much for a western horse. Even in a snaffle western horses are more on a loose rein just not as much as a curb though. 

All they are doing is changing tack. If you want to do Dressage then get a Dressage saddle. Seems really simple to me.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

:? Eh. Show me a good reining horse or bridle horse any day. I wish they'd had youtube back in the day when Sid Mails (sp?) was among the top bridle horse trainers out in Cali. I got to see a video of him years ago on one of his well trained bridle horses and I have NEVER seen anything like that before or since. I was completely awestruck.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Now compare those to this one.


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## Zeke (Jun 27, 2010)

I love Stacy Westfall! 

Seriously, I would love to see an elite level dressage horse ridden so nicely without a saddle or bridle. I know they would look nice, I'm not trying to bash but could they preform EVERY move needed to ace a high level dressage class?

*runs off to search youtube*


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

Amen to that


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

Wow that is true dressage at the ultamite If you find me on face book could you post it there I have a lot of friends who would like to see that one. Look for Eileen Schultz Bettenhausen


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

dressage is truly the
beautiful 
unspoken communication between rider and horse.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

The things is those where examples of "WESTERN" Dressage.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I just don't get the point of a whole new discipline....unless there are people who REALLY want to do dressage, but don't want to buy a new saddle and clothes......if I want to ride with contact I ride English, if not, I ride Western. Pretty simple, really, and I would think what I saw in video #2 of Western Dressage could be "plussed" (SP) by any decent reiner. I doubt the same could be said of a true dressage horse.....ask them for a spin or slide and they might just lose it! 
Shoot-my guy in training can already do what they showed, and he is not yet ready for the reining pen!
Sorry-but guess I really don't "get it", and I AM partial to reiners!


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Eileen said:


> Another thing ridding loose reing is ok in the arena but on trail it's the best way I know of if you want to get your neck broken.


Oh my god. I actually laughed out loud when I read this - and some of your subsequent posts. Wow, what a twisted perspective you have on horsemanship!




Anyway, I agree with what most of the reiners have said already. Why don't we also start English reining? Western jumping? English gaming? Western saddle seat? English cutting?

What's the point? Buy a new saddle if you want to do it that badly.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

There is a difference, I assume the true dressage you mention is the old school Spanish Riding which is totaly awsome and western dressage is the art of having your horse do western moves without haveing to kick, spur, plow rein, whip, kiss, click etc.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Eileen said:


> western dressage is the art of having your horse do western moves without haveing to kick, spur, plow rein, whip, kiss, click etc.


Eh... that IS reining. I don't see any of those things in reining except spurring, which I prefer over having a death grip on the reins. And my horse does too!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Eileen said:


> There is a difference, I assume the true dressage you mention is the old school Spanish Riding which is totaly awsome and western dressage is the art of having your horse do western moves without haveing to kick, spur, plow rein, whip, kiss, click etc.


The Dressage I am talking about is show Dressage. You know the same thing that you see in those videos.

I have never had to kick, spur, plow rein, whip any of my reiners. The Kiss and Cluck are simply cues give to the horse which have a purpose. The kiss means to speed up to slow down I hum. Along with changing my seat position.

What those videos show as being "western" dressage is nothing more the regular dressage with western gear. 

SO if you really want to ride in western tack ride a reiner. In the end they are very very much the same. They perform with very little contact and very very little visible cue.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

CloudsMystique said:


> Eh... that IS reining. I don't see any of those things in reining except spurring, which I prefer over having a death grip on the reins. And my horse does too!


Thing is the use of spurs is very light. If you mark your horse you are DQed and you are out a lot of money. So when I think of a horse being spurred I think of someone just waking them hard and putting marks on them. Maybe I am not think of it like others??

I agree about the death grip on the reins. I love the fact that all I have to do is move my hand about an inch and the horse will do a 90 degree turn NOW.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> Thing is the use of spurs is very light. If you mark your horse you are DQed and you are out a lot of money. So when I think of a horse being spurred I think of someone just waking them hard and putting marks on them. Maybe I am not think of it like others??


When I said spurring I meant touching them lightly with the spurs, but I think you're right about what Eileen meant.

I went on a trail ride today with a barrel racer and a pleasure rider and was slightly horrified by how they used their spurs. They were kicking their horses harder than I'd kick mine with my bare feet. And my horse responded a million times more quickly than theirs did. Imagine that!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

CloudsMystique said:


> When I said spurring I meant touching them lightly with the spurs, but I think you're right about what Eileen meant.
> 
> I went on a trail ride today with a barrel racer and a pleasure rider and was slightly horrified by how they used their spurs. They were kicking their horses harder than I'd kick mine with my bare feet. And my horse responded a million times more quickly than theirs did. Imagine that!


Ya I have seen a few like that too. Not reiners but others. I barely have to touch any of my horses. Even my green horses respond very well to spurs. I find that the spur makes the horses very light on the side if used properly. If not you get a bloody mess.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

It's not a twisted anything you young fools would be killed if you rode like you do out here and I have just recently been in and watched classes where the students are being told to use the whip, spurs and kick just to get their mounts moving! I've been keep up with the lates styles of ridding and to be honest most riders today shouldn't even be on a horse.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

I don't appreciate being put down just to make yourself supperior. and my trainning comes from some of the best this country has ever seen.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Eileen said:


> It's not a twisted anything you young fools would be killed if you rode like you do out here and I have just recently been in and watched classes where the students are being told to use the whip, spurs and kick just to get their mounts moving! I've been keep up with the lates styles of ridding and to be honest most riders today shouldn't even be on a horse.


First I am not young. Might not be as old as you but I am not young. Wish I was but sadly I am not. Nor am I a fool. I am a well versed well educated person who has been around horses for a long time. I know what it takes to train a horse to compete at the highest levels. As I have horses who have. 


I do not dispute what you say you have seen. I know it is out there. They are called bad trainers. They are out there they do exist. However go to a barn who has a well proven trainer and you will not see that. What you will see is a trainer who trains the horse to move with the slightest cue. Even my green mares will move off a very light leg. She will side pass with the best of them she will move every inch of her body and you would be hard pressed to see me even move my leg even on a green horse.

Go to an NRHA show. You will see some very very good riders even the ones who are in the 13 and under class ride better them most adults I have seen ride. Some even ride better then I do.

You really need to get out more.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Eileen said:


> I don't appreciate being put down just to make yourself supperior. and my trainning comes from some of the best this country has ever seen.



I do not see anyone putting you down. Just correcting the info you have put out there. As for your training I can not say. Just from what you have posted I do not see it. Does not mean it is not there though.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Eileen said:


> It's not a twisted anything you young fools would be killed if you rode like you do out here and I have just recently been in and watched classes where the students are being told to use the whip, spurs and kick just to get their mounts moving! I've been keep up with the lates styles of ridding and to be honest most riders today shouldn't even be on a horse.


I didn't call you twisted... I called your perspective twisted. You seem to think that riding with loose reins gives the horse complete control of any given situation. *Most *people would call that a training problem. Your view is so completely backwards from that of the general horse-riding population that it boggles my mind.

IF I happened to find myself in a situation like the one you described - at a show with a loose stallion - and my horse was completely freaked out and not listening to what I was saying, here's what I'd do: PICK UP MY REINS. It doesn't take that long.

I'm not arguing that horses are unpredictable, and that even the most well-trained horse could jump at the sound of a gunshot. I'm arguing with your idea that your reins are going to prevent that from happening.

A horse who would spook at something and fall off a cliff is a stupid horse. Tight reins are not going to fix that.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Nor do I appreciate being called a "young fool". While I may be younger than some, I am by no means a child and I am certainly not a fool. nrhareiner is a money earning reiner and I have seen CM ride and she's good. Why don't you put all doubts to rest and share a video of some of your 'top level' training?

I am not ashamed to share some of mine. I'm not perfect and neither are my horses but I never claim to be. I don't show at all, let alone at top levels, but I can turn out a horse that is rideable by anybody that has a clue of how to ride. I can keep them soft and responsive either in a snaffle or a curb, spurs or not. So by all means, shut me up with proof.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

I'm not really looking for a argument I've just had with the way I have seen so many ride today just as back in the day. Every hot shot thought they could ride just because they could get on a horse. I hate seeing horses abused by bad riders and I'm sure you do also. Sorry about call a fool but out here were we are it's man car and truck country pavement. Our trails are over run with bycycles, runners and people walking their dogs, not to mention the barn (stable) owners and riders out here will hardly even look at you let alone give you the time of day. The only polite and friendly riders we have here don't even speak english. I'd love to be able to take our horse and daughter (she is our 14 year old granddaughter that we adopted) and be able to go on one of those great trail rides. After she got Toby she was being instructed by the trainners to use her spurs and whip etc. After watching and riding Toby I tryed to get her to try another way. She is so estatic she road yesterday and got Toby to respond to everything without any aids and (dangerous I know but she had to try) with soft soled shoes no heels. I was so proud of her.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

please forgive my spelling when my dander gets up my spelling and grammer go right out the window.


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