# I don't know what to do, please help Hoofpic!



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I got as far as the 'outside' trainer saying your mates GW isn't up to Pats standards.

So I will say, get over it to Pat and the 'outside' trainer.

Ride your mare. Sometimes a person has to walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

Ride. Your. Mare.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

What does your gut tell you? Forget everyone else: the trainers (trainerS?! I wish I could afford ONE!!) and the BO and us. What do YOU want? What do YOU feel is what you need to do? Because ultimately, no one else matters. Not the BO, not either of your trainers. It's what you want to do and feel you're ready for.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

sarahfromsc said:


> I got as far as the 'outside' trainer saying your mates GW isn't up to Pats standards.
> 
> So I will say, get over it to Pat and the 'outside' trainer.
> 
> ...


Stoopid "like" button not working on my phone.

This is me "liking" your post.


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## mkmurphy81 (May 8, 2015)

sarahfromsc said:


> I got as far as the 'outside' trainer saying your mates GW isn't up to Pats standards.
> 
> So I will say, get over it to Pat and the 'outside' trainer.
> 
> ...


like^

If your groundwork is good enough that you can groom, saddle, and lead her to the arena, ride her!


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

sarahfromsc said:


> I got as far as the 'outside' trainer saying your mates GW isn't up to Pats standards.
> 
> So I will say, get over it to Pat and the 'outside' trainer.
> 
> ...


I will add...

My outside trainer is a liberty trainer who preaches on Pat Parelli's style. She has learned from him (how many years, not sure) but she is all about the lightness. Which is great because I am as well. This is why I reconnected with her over a month ago from us having over a year break from not even talking to each other. I really REALLY liked what I saw in March of 2015 when I went out to her place (this was even before I got to be around horses again) and what she has done with her and her project horse at the time.

So obviously she has VERY HIGH standards when it comes to a horses groundwork being refined before even thinking of getting on their back. 

Whereas my BO and riding coach feel that I have bashed so much groundwork with my mare that "riding her" is the next step I need to take, and the one that will make the biggest difference. They are believers that a horses groundwork doesnt need to be "perfect" in order to ride them. It just has to be good enough for you to be confident enough with them in the saddle.

Now I dont remember who told me this, but this person said to me, "You could spend 2 years doing nothing but groundwork with a horse to get it perfect, but if you havent ridden them during that time, what good is it?" True or false?

I will say this. Even though I do not have the same rapport and openness with my riding coach as my outside trainer, (our personalities butt heads), I do know that she is a person I can trust 100%. She is of an honest of a person as can be. I can 100% gaurentee you that, she will not tell me to ride my mare if she didnt see me being ready. 

I wasn't ready 7.5 months ago when I arrived to the barn and I had my very first riding lesson with her. She said "I definitely do not want you riding your mare"...."You are not even close to being ready." Her tone of voice was a bit harsh, but she made me realize that I was not ready to ride my mare or even consider it and that I had a whole lot of learning to do.

I'm not saying my outside trainer isnt honest nor that she is someone I cant trust (I trust her fully, otherwise I wouldnt have reconnected with her and be spending $400 a month for her services). But she has reconnected with me for a month now whereas my riding coach has worked with my riding (despite a 3.5 month gap for winter) for 7.5 months now. See what Im getting at here?

Same thing for the BO. There is a reason why this guy is so highly spoke of by not only all the (9 boarders including myself), but the kids and clients who come to ride his lesson horses and give him business. He has proven to me over the months that he is a vital source for information. The relationship between him and I started off at a rocky start. He had to earn my trust in terms of being able to run the place up to my standards and I know he didnt like this one bit. 
I will admit, the first night I drove out to his barn last Sept (unexpectedly) and he gave me dirty looks here and there, I thought he was a complete ahole and that no way I was going to move my mare there. 

But that night we ended up chatting for almost 2 hours because he wanted to investigate about me and find out exactly why I want to move my mare there. Whether or not he would accept us coming in (seeing how he doesnt advertise for boarders to come in as he said he will not take anymore horses), but he made an exception for me. 

And this was the same guy who (remember?) scolded me the 2nd night after moving my mare there about how much grain I feed her and questioned why I bought this particular mare and what procedures I took prior (in terms of riding her) to buying her. 

There was absolutely no doubt in my mind that in the first week (and this doubt very likely lasted the entire first month), he questioned me in terms of whether or not I'm here to stay or if horse ownership is going to end up being a temporary interest for me, where I board, then throw in a towel after a couple months (cause he has seen it many times over the years) where boarders will abandon their horses on his property and never come back without any notice.

My BO did all this because it shows just how much he cares for the industry and his boarders and the horses on his property. I will say one thing about the BO. When he's upset, he is upset and he is very intimidating. In fact, (as ironic as this sounds), as good and comfortable of a relationship him and I have built over the past 4-5 months, I still find him downright intimidating at times. And thats not because he's a jerk. 

But because he is a fine horseman. There is a reason why so many people have learned from him (all his kids for instance). He talks to you with pure emotion and I see it in his facial expression each time I see him. Intimidating or not, he is a guy who will not BS you in any way and he just speaks the truth. The truth may hurt at times or he may be harsh about it, but he is one of the most passionate people Ive met so far in terms of educating others.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Ride the mare. If you wait until a Parelli trainer tells you the mare is ready to ride, you and the mare will be too old to enjoy it. Get. On. Your. HORSE. I don't care if all you do is walk around the arena twice and get off, it's WAAAAAAAAAY past time to get on that horse and ride. 

I've had my 2 y.o. gelding at the trainers for 30 days to be broke in, and I'm almost 60 years old and I'M riding him.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

$400 a month for ground work? Really? Did I read that correctly?

If you want to flush 400 bucks a month......flush it my way.

She saw you coming down the road.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Maybe her standards are so high for ground work is because she can't ride? Scared to ride?

Hells bells, why should she ride when she can get $400 a month doing nothing?

I got pregnant, birthed a baby and had that child potty trained in less time than it has taken you to get on your horse!


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> What does your gut tell you? Forget everyone else: the trainers (trainerS?! I wish I could afford ONE!!) and the BO and us. What do YOU want? What do YOU feel is what you need to do? Because ultimately, no one else matters. Not the BO, not either of your trainers. It's what you want to do and feel you're ready for.


My gut feeling has been telling me over the past few weeks that I am fully confident in riding her. That means that I will have zero nervousness and if I were to get on her today, Im confident that I will be able to give her the upmost direct ques with the absolute lightness. You dont know how much Ive been anticipating this over the past couple months. I want to ride her so bad, but I held off until my gut told me Im ready.

And this is why I delayed things for a month, because I wanted to absolutely make sure that when I rode her, I have zero doubt or nervousness in me because I dont want her to feel doubt inside me. I want her to feel a confident rider getting on her.

I still think I made a very wise choice in delaying things for a month. I just went by my gut feeling. 

What do I feel I need to do? Ride her. Absolutely no doubt. 

But on the other hand, my outside trainer does have a point. Everything starts from the ground up. You need to have your groundwork refined or it wont mean squat when on their back.
And she feels my mares groundwork is not even close to being ready. We are still at Phase 1 of Parelli and we have a lot of work to do.

But again, like she even said it herself...she has VERY HIGH expectations in terms of refining groundwork. She is a believer, that if it takes years to get the groundwork to her expectations, then it takes years.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Ride the mare. If you wait until a Parelli trainer tells you the mare is ready to ride, you and the mare will be too old to enjoy it. Get. On. Your. HORSE. I don't care if all you do is walk around the arena twice and get off, *it's WAAAAAAAAAY past time to get on that horse and ride.*
> 
> I've had my 2 y.o. gelding at the trainers for 30 days to be broke in, and I'm almost 60 years old and I'M riding him.


(In the bold) is EXACTLY what my riding coach said to me today. She pretty much told me in a serious tone of voice, it needs to happen and the sooner the better and that I'm not gaining anything but delaying any further. She meant business.

Because she flat out told me today. "I want to give you lessons with you on your mare"...."cause that's whats gonna matter the most, you on your mares back and not the lesson mare".


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

sarahfromsc said:


> $400 a month for ground work? Really? Did I read that correctly?
> 
> If you want to flush 400 bucks a month......flush it my way.
> 
> She saw you coming down the road.


Well $400 a month ($50 per lesson, 2 lessons a week) for horsemanship, not just groundwork. Remember, she is working with me and my mare to have the best partnership possible.

Obviously having her out twice a week is just for the time being. Once my gut tells me that we have reached a pinacle, then I can lower it to once a week. Then eventually maybe once every couple weeks.

So this $400/month cost (yes its a lot) but im confident its short term cost for long term reward.

TRUST ME WHEN I SAY THIS.

The sooner I can lower that $400 a month expense on her services the better. Not that I dont want her out that often, or that I dont want to pay her that kind of money. But the sooner and quicker I can progress to the point where I hit a pinacle, the sooner I have more money in my pocket. Make sense?



sarahfromsc said:


> Maybe her standards are so high for ground work is because she can't ride? Scared to ride?


From talking with my outside trainer tonight, she said that she has had her share of times in her life of being bucked off horses and falling off and it hurts. So thats why she is extra cautious and getting that groundwork perfect before even considering getting on their back.



> Hells bells, why should she ride when she can get $400 a month doing nothing?


Well that may be a bit jumping to conclusion. I do sincerely believe (I can see it from just talking to her) that this outside trainer is not just about the money. She really does care a lot about the partnership between the owner and the horse.



> I got pregnant, birthed a baby and had that child potty trained in less time than it has taken you to get on your horse!


ok


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

Your mare needs to be ridden. She hasn't been ridden more than twice in four months? That's really not fair to her. If you are capable of riding her, you need to be riding her, for the sake of both of you. You're not doing her any favors by letting her sit in the pasture. Wet blankets are what will put the finish on your mare, and you too.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Right, I went to clinic this weekend and this girl brought her horse for the riding portion. Mind you this horse was 2 but a 10 minute ride wouldn't kill her but all she did was whinge. I'm going to tell you the same thing I said to her 


Get on the bloody horse or don't it's none of our business but stop complaint,whinging and telling other people to make your decisions for you. Get on the horse or don't it's your money you are wasting.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

None of it makes sense.

My eyes have started to twitch and my head just did a 360.

The older readers will get that reference.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

sarahfromsc said:


> None of it makes sense.
> 
> My eyes have started to twitch and my head just did a 360.
> 
> The older readers will get that reference.


WHat doesnt make sense?


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

What do you want to do? Stop all these convoluted posts and get to the point. What do you want to do?

If you want to ride, get on your freakin' horse. You have a riding instructor. 

If you want to be a circus performer, then ditch the riding instructor. Get the liberty instructor to teach you to do amazing things with your horse from the ground. That is just as legitimate.

It seems that you are trying to talk yourself out of riding. You'll never have zero nervousness. You just seem like a nervous person.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Have you ever ridden your horse or seen anyone else ride her?

She said it could take years? Have you seen her ride any horse? (I deleted what I initially wrote about her because I do try to be nice)

Hoofpic, I believe you truly want what is best for your mare but I also don't believe that irritating her for years is the best thing to do.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Rainaisabelle said:


> Right, I went to clinic this weekend and this girl brought her horse for the riding portion. Mind you this horse was 2 but a 10 minute ride wouldn't kill her but all she did was whinge. I'm going to tell you the same thing I said to her
> 
> 
> Get on the bloody horse or don't it's none of our business but stop complaint,whinging and telling other people to make your decisions for you. Get on the horse or don't it's your money you are wasting.


I meant stop complaining


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> What do you want to do? Stop all these convoluted posts and get to the point. What do you want to do?
> 
> If you want to ride, get on your freakin' horse. You have a riding instructor.
> 
> ...


Thank you!!!! :clap: We've all been thinking it. Thank you for saying it!


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> What do you want to do? Stop all these convoluted posts and get to the point. What do you want to do?
> 
> If you want to ride, get on your freakin' horse. You have a riding instructor.
> 
> ...


I want to ride her. It has been eating me upside over the past few months but I held off and held off until my gut told me Im ready. Today I told my riding coach "Now I dont know if you will see me trotting her in 20 metre circles on the first ride...." and she replied "Uhhh, you never know, I think you can". So obviously she has a lot of confidence in me. She's ridden my mare and she knows what she is like in the saddle. If she felt I wasn't capable of riding her, there is no way she would tell me to get on her. I just know her well enough by now.

Are you being sarcastic when you say "Get the liberty instructor to teach you to do amazing things with your horse from the ground. That is just as legitimate."?

Im not nervous at all. If I was, my riding coach wouldnt be harping on my case about getting on my mare because she has always preached to me that I need to be a confident rider when i get on her. I cant have any nervousness or doubt inside me because she will feel it and feed off it like a shark.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Rainaisabelle said:


> Right, I went to clinic this weekend and this girl brought her horse for the riding portion. Mind you this horse was 2 but a 10 minute ride wouldn't kill her but all she did was whinge. I'm going to tell you the same thing I said to her
> 
> 
> Get on the bloody horse or don't it's none of our business but stop complaint,whinging and telling other people to make your decisions for you. Get on the horse or don't it's your money you are wasting.



THIS, 100 times over, you want to ride your own horse ride it

You want to mess around playing games on the ground, great your horse your money, you don't have to ride.

You know the question you have to ask is what does your mare want.........think about that for a minute.

My Gibbs, he HATES messing about playing the games, I took him to one clinic, and he was bored, started making up has own games. He wants to be ridden, and not in an arena, he wants to be a trail horse....

What does your mare want?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Hoofpic, I'll make you a deal:

You ride your mare this week and I'll ride my gelding. I have some major fear issues, so this is a big commitment for me.

Pics or it didn't happen.

Deal?


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> I want to ride her. It has been eating me upside over the past few months but I held off and held off until my gut told me Im ready.
> 
> Are you being sarcastic when you say "Get the liberty instructor to teach you to do amazing things with your horse from the ground. That is just as legitimate."?
> 
> Im not nervous at all. If I was, my riding coach wouldnt be harping on my case about getting on my mare because she has always preached to me that I need to be a confident rider when i get on her. I cant have any nervousness or doubt inside me because she will feel it and feed off it like a shark.


Got any medical marijuana laying around?:wink:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> Are you being sarcastic when you say "Get the liberty instructor to teach you to do amazing things with your horse from the ground. That is just as legitimate."?


Why would you think that, THIS IS JUST AS LEGITIMATE, read with comprehension..

YOUR mare 

YOUR choice

Ride it

Play with it

Bring it in once a week and groom it

Do what I do with my retired mare, just enjoy being with her

All are legitimate, as long as she is well fed, healthy, feet and teeth done etc, no one gives a damm what you do or don't do with her.....your horse, your choice, that is what everyone is saying


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Hoofpic, it is great you are so keen. And working with two trainers has taught you a lot, from what you tell us. But I think you have now come to the point where two trainers are a conflict of interest. You can't work for two masters now that they are saying different things.

It is time to ride your mare and progress together. Thank the outside trainer very much for her help, but end it. It doesn't matter how much more that trainer can teach your horse, it is what you need to learn with your horse.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> THIS, 100 times over, you want to ride your own horse ride it
> 
> You want to mess around playing games on the ground, great your horse your money, you don't have to ride.
> 
> ...


Because my mare is right brained and an extrovert, she needs to have her mind stimulated. So that means variety in what shes being taught and worked on. You can do on line work, great, but factor in being ridden (even if its only once a week for now) by me, and it all of a sudden adds a lot more variety to her work routine. Trust me, once I start riding her, I plan on soon riding her more than once a week, but I want to start off at once a week for the first the first couple times then up it to twice a week. This is TAKING IT THE FIRST RIDE GOES WELL.

Im not used to riding twice a week so this is going to be an adjustment that im going to have to make. Especially when Im already working on all this online work with her. Ah how am I gonna have time for all this? Im already seeing my mare 5 times a week but I might have to up it to 6 times. But I need my days off to free my mind, clear it and catch up on my reading books.

Thats what my riding coach said today. She said there is nothing wrong with me continuing to do groundwork with her while riding her on other days. 

But my outside trainer says that because shes not good enough on the ground, that when I ride her, it will mean nothing because we wont have that connection.

She said, just like on line to liberty. If you dont have good online work, then you wont have any good liberty results. And that going from online to the saddle is a much bigger jump.

I see her concern (I really do), she is trying to look out for my safety. Cause from her stand point, its a bunch of "What ifs". What if my mare bucks? What is my mare is fiesty and doesnt listen to my ques and then I have to be hard on her?" What if? What if? But this is why my riding coach will ride her first to assess. If come Friday, she rides my mare and shes being a brat, she will not have me ride her. She will want to set me up for success.

So to answer your question, I would say that my mare wants variety. She wants challenge. She wants her mind stimulated. She wants new adventures. She wants to do things that will build her confidence.

Because afterall, that is my ultimate goal with my mare. To make her a willing horse. To make her "want" to do something and the way to achieve that is to build her confidence.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

"But my outside trainer says that because she's not good enough on the ground, that when I ride her, it will mean nothing because we wont have that connection."

Are we discussing riding your horse or "waiting for marriage?"


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Hoofpic said:


> ..............
> 
> Are you being sarcastic when you say "Get the liberty instructor to teach you to do amazing things with your horse from the ground. That is just as legitimate."?
> 
> Im not nervous at all. If I was, my riding coach wouldnt be harping on my case about getting on my mare because she has always preached to me that I need to be a confident rider when i get on her. I cant have any nervousness or doubt inside me because she will feel it and feed off it like a shark.


No sarcasm at all. There are folks who do amazing things with their horses at liberty. And it can take years to get to that point. But, most of them can also ride. 


Now you're saying you're not nervous at all. In your previous post you said you were waiting til you had zero nervousness. That will never happen. I've been in the saddle for well over 50 years. I still get nervous when I climb on one with a known vice. If you want to ride, saddle up and ride.


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

You are way overthinking this. Just ride the mare, or don't. Waiting for the perfect time for anything is a wait that will never end. It won't be perfect, but so what? You'll both learn from each other. Just ride her.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

natisha said:


> "But my outside trainer says that because she's not good enough on the ground, that when I ride her, it will mean nothing because we wont have that connection."
> 
> Are we discussing riding your horse or "waiting for marriage?"


Loooooooooool!


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Hoofpic, I'll make you a deal:
> 
> You ride your mare this week and I'll ride my gelding. I have some major fear issues, so this is a big commitment for me.
> 
> ...


I told myself earlier tonight that I am going to try my best to see if my riding coach would allow me to record my lesson on my mare. Im not getting my hopes up and Im sure she will ask "why". I could say because a friend of mine would like to see, or that I want to keep it as reference and viewing pleasure for me. But I know she is not all that crazy about the camera. Fingers crossed.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> Why would you think that, THIS IS JUST AS LEGITIMATE, read with comprehension..
> 
> YOUR mare
> 
> ...


AGREED.


I'm gonna be very honest and say that I don't *like* riding my gelding. Some days we have really great "talk about it for days" rides, but mostly we just have rides where surviving is the goal.
He's not mentally comfortable being ridden [due to past issues that have little to do with me] and his nervousness makes me anxious.

BUT.
I know that the more we ride, the more comfortable we both will be. He's nervous when I'm in the saddle because he hasn't figured out how to "talk" to me when I'm up there. He shares feelings all day on the ground, but hasn't quite figured out how to tell me what he needs when I'm on his back.
Will he ever figure out how to communicate/get comfortable with in-the-saddle-me if I only do groundwork? No.

So you know what I do?

I have a pact with myself that I will ride him at least once a week [we do groundwork on non-riding days]. 
I tack him up, I walk him around [he has a cold-back so it's important that I don't just hop on], then I get on.

We might only ride one lap around the arena and do some yielding exercises before I get off, but that's ok because I RODE. If something scary happens, I stay on until we both feel safe again, then I get off.
I don't have to ride for an hour for Fabs to learn something and he has plenty to learn at the walk, there's no need to trot. 

For us both, the mere act of getting on his back is brave and it's ok to recognize that.




On the flip side, there's nothing wrong with just doing groundwork. There are plenty of horses that physically cannot tolerate riding, but are perfectly sound for whatever groundwork you might throw at them. 
For instance, my gelding has PSSM. He's one of the lucky ones in that he's very symptomatic, but still rideable.
I know of a number of PSSM horses that, due to the nature of the disease, NEED daily groundwork as a requirement for the condition, but cannot tolerate weigh-bearing. 
I also know of a number of PSSM-horse owners who would jump at the chance to gift their horse into a loving home where groundwork was all that was required - no riding.
I also know of a horse that was part of a bucking string when he was young and can't be ridden due to the severity of his bucking undersaddle. On the ground, he is an absolute doll. For safety reasons, his owner only does groundwork with him and they are both perfectly happy.

A horse like that might not be exactly right for you, but it's the idea. If you're worried about "wasting" your mare doing *just* groundwork, why not rehome her and find a horse better suited to what you feel comfortable with?
Continue riding lessons if that's what you want, and let you current mare move on to something that suites her abilities, while simultaneously helping a horse that has a limited market [ground-work only]. 



There are lots of options. Just, for the sake of everyone's sanity, choose one and stick with it!


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

natisha said:


> "But my outside trainer says that because she's not good enough on the ground, that when I ride her, it will mean nothing because we wont have that connection."
> 
> Are we discussing riding your horse or "waiting for marriage?"


No, her point is that everything starts from the ground. That I agree with, its been proven that everything starts from the ground and carries over to the saddle. 

The big question is, how perfect or refined does the groundwork need to be before going into the saddle?

According to my riding coach and my BO, like they say "it doesnt need to be perfect, but good enough where you feel you can carry it over to the saddle".

I remember one of my past trainers saying this exact same thing to me as well. He said that the groundwork doesnt need to be perfect because it could take you years of groundwork to get a horse with no holes in their groundwork, or you may never achieve it at all, who knows.

But again, this was the same guy who swore that his custom program was the bible when it came to horse training on the ground and that if I didnt refine 29 different ways to back my mare up or make her trot, that the poor results would show in the saddle." This is the reason why I ditched this guy.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> I see her concern (I really do), she is trying to look out for my safety. Cause from her stand point, its a bunch of "What ifs". What if my mare bucks? What is my mare is fiesty and doesnt listen to my ques and then I have to be hard on her?" What if? What if? But this is why my riding coach will ride her first to assess. If come Friday, she rides my mare and shes being a brat, she will not have me ride her. She will want to set me up for success.


Each and every single time you ride there is a bunch of what ifs, and a 100 years of ground work will not change that.

For your own sanity CHOOSE, bin one of those trainers, and move forward with the one who you enjoy most, because it shouldn't be this complicated


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

When you get on and ride, the ifs are sorted. Sorry, but your outside trainer has more to lose than you do, thats a lot of money you give her.

Right now, are you learning to be a good rider or a good trainer?

My suggestion, get your riding sorted on your own horse, and make some serious progress then spend more time with the liberty. You are filling your head with a whole lot of ideals, which is fine, but you also need to focus on priorities. No one will ever pay attention to you as a person who can train liberty if you can't even ride your own horse, so I would be putting the time in to extra lessons with your riding coach.



> But my outside trainer says that because she's not good enough on the ground, that when I ride her, it will mean nothing because we wont have that connection.


PS. That is simply not true. Is your school horse SO highly trained?

Make it simple. One trainer/coach


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Every single time you put up a post you ask a question and people give you the same answer! Then you fight about it and try to justify why you won't or what he said she said! Make a decision dear lord please.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

You alone are holding yourself back. You bought a horse, I assume to ride but that is between you and the horse, not thousands of strangers on the internet who are frankly tired of your back and fourth wishy washiness.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I'm not a Parelli follower, but there are a whole lot of people that don't know a thing about Parelli, don't know the personality profile of their horse and have a great relationship with them and don't worry about everything being all perfect on the ground. 

For instance, I have a 6 yr old gelding. He's far from perfect, but he's actually BETTER under saddle than on the ground. Some people get off the horse if they see something scary on the trail. I actually feel safer on his back because he rides better than he leads!

It's completely possible for a horse to be good under saddle and not necessarily perfect on the ground. A lot of people just use ground work as a means to get the horse ready to ride and then do as little as possible once the horse is going well under saddle. I will still do a bit of ground work before I ride, but the goal is to ride, not perfect the ground work before I ride. If I was waiting for him to be perfect, I would still be waiting. But I've been riding him for 4 years now. Does he still make mistakes? Do I still get nervous? Yes to both of those. But at some point you just have to get on and ride. An animal will never be perfect just the way we will never be perfect.


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Thats a bit harsh Sky. We might be the only outside help hoofpic can turn to. I imagine given what hoofpic is paying that there is a lot of pressure not to stop. You are showing the impatience typical of the expert for the novice


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

I don't think it is harsh at all. These threads always go the same way. Same question same answers same argument and same ending. 


Make a decision. We were all beginners once but as I remember it you got this horse to ride and enjoy so make up your mind.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> No, her point is that everything starts from the ground. That I agree with, its been proven that everything starts from the ground and carries over to the saddle.
> 
> The big question is, how perfect or refined does the groundwork need to be before going into the saddle?
> 
> ...


How perfect does it have to be? It doesn't all have to be perfect. Whoa & walk is good enough for me, the rest comes with riding.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Wallaby said:


> Will he ever figure out how to communicate/get comfortable with in-the-saddle-me if I only do groundwork? No.
> !


This quote caught my attention because I fully agree with it. Groundwork is great, on line work is great but it can only take you and your horse so far before you need to achieve further partnership in the saddle. 

I have never thought about giving up on my mare. Ever. Not even once. Ive come all this ways, its working and I will only continue to make it work. Trust me.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

ShirtHotTeez said:


> Thats a bit harsh Sky. We might be the only outside help hoofpic can turn to. I imagine given what hoofpic is paying that there is a lot of pressure not to stop. You are showing the impatience typical of the expert for the novice


I'm not an expert nor a novice. I am actually an extremely patient person but I am also someone that used to be supportive and encouraging towards the OP until the OP continued shooting down advice and then complaining when it didn't go right. Back and fourth, back and fourth, across multiple threads.

If it's harsh, I don't care. I am not going to spoon feed the OP, but I am going to offer the advice I offered earlier. They are holding themselves back. It is between him and his horse.

Frankly I don't like the sound of anyone helping him there (not that it matters) aside from the BO. The groundwork lessons are overdone IMOP. It's been months of just groundwork. It shouldn't take months of ground work to have understanding between a person and their horse unless their horse is a baby and groundwork is done in short sessions. 

I understand that the OP's horse is not a baby. So I'm not getting it.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Hoofpic, I'll make you a deal:
> 
> You ride your mare this week and I'll ride my gelding. I have some major fear issues, so this is a big commitment for me.
> 
> ...


I would take Drafty up on that! 

I personally have anxiety about riding in the wind. Because Zane my gelding can be spooky. So I know all about anxiety issues. It's been windy here for about 2 weeks and I haven't ridden him in a week. But the first good day I get, we are hitting the trail! Waiting generally makes things worse, not better.

Even if you got on your horse for 5 minutes, after the trainer rides her, that's a great start. 

I guess I personally would die of anticipation if I _didn't_ ride my horse.

I know you say you aren't nervous, but your actions suggest otherwise. That or you totally believe things have to be "perfect" before you ride. But she's a horse, she will always have room for improvement. If you are waiting for perfection, you will never ride her.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> I know you say you aren't nervous, but your actions suggest otherwise. That or you totally believe things have to be "perfect" before you ride. But she's a horse, *she will always have room for improvement.* If you are waiting for perfection, you will never ride her.


Yep.

Expecting perfection leads to resentment. They are living beings, not machines you code to function.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> Each and every single time you ride there is a bunch of what ifs, and a 100 years of ground work will not change that.
> 
> For your own sanity CHOOSE, bin one of those trainers, and move forward with the one who you enjoy most, because it shouldn't be this complicated


I agree, there will always be what ifs. Its great to be cautious, but sometimes being "extra cautious" like my outside trainer is being can hold you back and in a negative way.

I cannot and will not bid on one of the trainers. Why? Because they both offer two completely different things. Like I said, I love learning from multiple people and my riding coach is a superb riding coach (this is a perfect example of the "dont fix if it aint broke" saying), and my outside trainer is all about liberty and has horsemanship qualities that my riding coach I found not to be to my acquired taste.

I know 100% absolutely no doubt in my mind that my riding coach and I will never have a partnership outside of riding. We dont have that rapport that my outside trainer and I have. Do you think my riding coach and I would ever had an hour long conversation on the phone? No chance. My riding coach and I just dont have that compatability that my outside trainer and I have when it comes to horsemanship. Our personalities clash because we have very opposite opinions on horsemanship. Ive said it before and ill say it again. She is a bit of a one dimensional trainer and she does one thing primarily and one thing best and thats teaching riding.

My riding coach knows now (cause I told her) that my two biggest interests are liberty and cowboy challenge. After going to the 4 day clinic last week, it reassured me in my mind that these are the two things in the horse world that interest me in the most. Unfortunately, she doesnt really care for either, whereas my outside trainer is all about liberty and obstacles etc.

With my outside trainer, each time we have a lesson, our 2 hour lessons always turn out to be 2.5-3 hour lessons because we always end up talking afterwards about stuff. That shows the amazing and open rapport that we have between us.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Hoofpic,

I honestly feel like you've made up your mind and it won't matter what any of us say.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Rainaisabelle said:


> Hoofpic,
> 
> I honestly feel like you've made up your mind and it won't matter what any of us say.


Yes Ive made my decision. I am going to ride her this Friday. No backing out.

I learned a valuable lesson tonight and that lesson was that I shouldnt have mentioned anything to my outside trainer about me riding my mare right now. I opened up a can of worms (unintentionally of course). I should have kept my mouth shut.

But please dont assume that what you guys say dont matter to me. I find that a bit insulting. I'm not wanting you guys to make decisions for me. Im just collecting insight from you all and it helps me collaborate. Like I said, I dont have any horsey friends locally to chat with.


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

If you ditch your riding coach, you are going to be no further ahead in 5 years. You are focusing on things you are not prepared for, and where your riding coach is trying to get you there, the outside trainer gains more by holding you back. 

You _*do not*_ need to be 'mates' with your riding coach. It is enough to have an understanding and be able to work with him/her. Who you chat to for an hour has nothing to do with lessons. Don't ditch the riding lessons, and start taking them on your own horse. _*Then*_ you will be prepared to follow any direction you choose.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> But please dont assume that what you guys say dont matter to me. I find that a bit insulting. I'm not wanting you guys to make decisions for me. Im just collecting insight from you all and it helps me collaborate. Like I said, I dont have any horsey friends locally to chat with.


We can't help but feel like you are when in next thread is the same question over and over


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> I agree, there will always be what ifs. Its great to be cautious, but sometimes being "extra cautious" like my outside trainer is being can hold you back and in a negative way.
> 
> I cannot and will not bid on one of the trainers. Why? Because they both offer two completely different things. Like I said, I love learning from multiple people and my riding coach is a superb riding coach (this is a perfect example of the "dont fix if it aint broke" saying), and my outside trainer is all about liberty and has horsemanship qualities that my riding coach I found not to be to my acquired taste.
> 
> ...


She doesn't care because she's teaching you to ride so you can do cowboy challenge or whatever kind of riding you want to do. Emphasis on riding.
The other one will give you phone time because that will translate into $50 an hour. 

There's a saying about nurses which may apply here too. If you're going to be a crappy one you better be extra nice.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

trailhorserider said:


> If I was waiting for him to be perfect, I would still be waiting. But I've been riding him for 4 years now. Does he still make mistakes? Do I still get nervous? Yes to both of those. But at some point you just have to get on and ride. An animal will never be perfect just the way we will never be perfect.


Ding ding, I agree.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

ShirtHotTeez said:


> If you ditch your riding coach, you are going to be no further ahead in 5 years. You are focusing on things you are not prepared for, and where your riding coach is trying to get you there, the outside trainer gains more by holding you back.
> 
> You _*do not*_ need to be 'mates' with your riding coach. It is enough to have an understanding and be able to work with him/her. Who you chat to for an hour has nothing to do with lessons. Don't ditch the riding lessons, and start taking them on your own horse. _*Then*_ you will be prepared to follow any direction you choose.


Trust me, I dont plan on ditching my riding coach. She is a big reason why I've made the progress as a rider today. I give her a lot of credit, in fact I give her most of the credit. She is great at what she does. Really great. And that is why I dont want to change something that is currently working.

I know I dont need to be "mates" with my riding coach. But I do have limits with her in terms of our openness with her. Going by past experiences with previous trainers, openness with them is a quality that should not be overlooked or taken for granted.

I am completely open with my outside trainer because I am that comfortable with her. I feel that I can ask her anything and everything because we have that rapport between us. Whereas my riding coach I will sometimes have to second guess before asking because we butt heads in some ways. Like I said, Ive gotten to know my riding coach well enough by now over the past 8 months to know that her and I have our limits and this is why she is purely a riding coach for me, nothing more.

This is actually a small conversation my riding coach and I had today. I said that once I start riding my mare that I would like to continue riding the lesson mare as well from time to time. She said "why?...I would rather see you spend that extra time on your mare than the lesson mare". Which she brings up a good point. The more time I spend on my mares back, the better off I am.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

natisha said:


> How perfect does it have to be? It doesn't all have to be perfect. Whoa & walk is good enough for me, the rest comes with riding.


I will say that I do believe that the more refined groundwork is , the more refined it is in the saddle.

Im not disagreeing with what you say. But tonight I went to audit a short 3 clinic where a lady was working with her stud. She could move each of his 4 feet individually by just looking, focusing on that one foot with her eyes, locking them in and pointing with her finger to where she wants him to move that foot to. I have to say that it was one of the most amazing things ive ever seen! WOW it was amazing, I was blown away.

I asked her "how hard was this to teach"...she said "easy, very easy". The best thing was that she could do this at any distance.

i would love to be able to do this with my mare. Easily one of the most powerful ways that ive ever seen to move your horses feet. 

Has anyone been able to do this with their horse? Sorry dont mean to get OT.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I must have missed some things over the months so I have some questions.

Was your mare broke to ride when you bought her?

If she was, did you test ride before buying?

Did you take a bad fall or what has you so hesitant about riding her?

Now I'm going to reiterate some things that have already been said because they are important and true.

Waiting for perfection will keep you waiting forever.

Expecting perfection will lead to disappointment.

You will create a better and stronger partnership with your mare under saddle than you will from just groundwork. Notice I said just groundwork. The more things you do with your horse the better your relationship will be and it will build a more well rounded horse.

Knowledge is great, it's wonderful you entered into horses wanting to learn everything but Rome wasn't built in a day and there is such a thing as info overload. Sometimes is best to learn the basics (riding coach) and once you are comfortable and sure in your knowledge of those basics THEN you move onto more refined things (your outside coach).


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> I told myself earlier tonight that I am going to try my best to see if my riding coach would allow me to record my lesson on my mare. Im not getting my hopes up and Im sure she will ask "why". I could say because a friend of mine would like to see, or that I want to keep it as reference and viewing pleasure for me. But I know she is not all that crazy about the camera. Fingers crossed.


That is an awful wishy-washy answer.

As Yoda says: "Do, or do not. There is no try."

Where there's a will, there's a way. My offer wasn't a "Okay, if I can." It was a "yes-or-no." No arguing, no excuses. Just do it or don't.

Before the week is out, expect to be tagged in a post with pics of me riding my (17hh extremely green) gelding, despite my serious fear issues. I will be looking for yours, as well. Doesn't have to be video. Stills are perfectly fine.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I say...you are AFRAID to ride, and there is NO way I would put you on her. You need a different horse to ride.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

If years of "perfect" groundwork are required to create a "relationship" between horse and rider such that the horse "allows" the person to ask things from the saddle...how have you been successfully riding a lesson horse an hour a week for the past couple of months without getting tossed?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Hoofpic,

It's good to have ideals and goals for working with horses. However, your outside trainer does not have enough experience with all kinds of horses if she believes ground work is the answer to creating a horse that does well under saddle. There are horses (and I've known several) that have not had ground work done with them at all, meaning they do not know how to lead politely, do not tie, have never lunged, and the only handling they have is to stand and have their hooves trimmed, and to throw a saddle and bridle on. Depending on the culture of training, some horses are turned out and taught to ground tie or be ridden, not led into barns and tied up or lunged. These horses are very well trained under saddle. 

There are horses that know how to move all the parts of their body individually under saddle, but do not know how to do that on a lead line. Horses view each training cue as a separate thing. They do not learn a cue based on a feeling or bond, instead they learn by conditioning. You can teach a horse to behave beautifully with ground work and the horse will not know a thing about being ridden. Unless, of course, you teach the horse riding cues from the ground such as using long lines to teach reining cues and verbal cues that translate to riding.

I just want you to understand that you could spend years working on ground work but have a horse you can't ride, unless you specifically work with and train the horse under saddle. A horse can be "finished" at ground work and green under saddle, or vice versa. The two things do not directly relate to one another.

If you have goals of a well behaved horse on the ground, then by all means do lots of ground work. But don't do a lot of ground work expecting that it will translate to a well behaved horse under saddle. I've known some horses that are experts at ground work and buck their riders off under saddle.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

^^like!


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

Hoofpic said:


> I will say that I do believe that the more refined groundwork is , the more refined it is in the saddle.
> 
> Im not disagreeing with what you say. But tonight I went to audit a short 3 clinic where a lady was working with her stud. She could move each of his 4 feet individually by just looking, focusing on that one foot with her eyes, locking them in and pointing with her finger to where she wants him to move that foot to. I have to say that it was one of the most amazing things ive ever seen! WOW it was amazing, I was blown away.
> 
> ...


I would be curious to see how much better this stud horse was under saddle than the other horses ?


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Quite honestly you can mess around for far to long with ground work. It seems to me that this outside trainer is trying to take over the reins with what you do and do not do with _your_ horse. 

I would tell her thanks for all the help you have given me - you haven't seen me ride and those that have think I am more than ready. As you will feel a grudge against me for going against you I will no longer require your services.

Simples!


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## 3rdTimestheCharm (Jan 18, 2015)

I haven't read all the replies, so I'm sorry if anyone has already said this, but I want to share this quote with you, Hoofpic. I don't remember who said it, but I saw it on a horse website not too long ago. 

The quote is, "I have stopped being nervous about riding. There's only two outcomes and I already know them. I'm either going to fall off or I'm not."

I've been riding 10+ years, and I still get nervous if I'm trying something new, or riding a new horse. That saying helps me, so I hope it helps you too.

If this mare was mine, I would definitely hop on her. Even if it's only for 5 minutes.

At the end of the day, this is YOUR horse, not either of your trainer's horse, or the BO's horse. So do what YOU want to do! 

Good luck with whatever you decide


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

I don't think it's a matter of this parelli trainer trying to take your money or rip you off. What she's saying is 100% a parelli thing. You have to be at a certain point of ground work to start riding. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but now it's time to make a choice. You either stick with the parelli stuff or you dump it. You are not really knowledgeable enough on your own to do both.


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## HombresArablegacy (Oct 12, 2013)

sarahfromsc said:


> None of it makes sense.
> 
> My eyes have started to twitch and my head just did a 360.
> 
> The older readers will get that reference.


OMG! It's too early in the morning to be laughing this hard :rofl::rofl:

Even Linda Blair has her limits, lol


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

elle1959 said:


> You are way overthinking this. Just ride the mare, or don't. Waiting for the perfect time for anything is a wait that will never end. It won't be perfect, but so what? You'll both learn from each other. Just ride her.


Thats my thoughts as well. There will be no perfect time for anything and as much as my outside trainer wants the groundwork on my mare so refined that when I get on, it will be "special"....well thats something you would read in a fairy tale. I dont think many horse owners ride their horse for the first time absolutely expecting it to be "special". Sure they may want it but its not realistic IMO.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Hoofpic, was the lady with the demo stallion able to precisely move his feet while on him?


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I'm not an expert nor a novice. I am actually an extremely patient person but I am also someone that used to be supportive and encouraging towards the OP until the OP continued shooting down advice and then complaining when it didn't go right. Back and fourth, back and fourth, across multiple threads.
> 
> If it's harsh, I don't care. I am not going to spoon feed the OP, but I am going to offer the advice I offered earlier. They are holding themselves back. It is between him and his horse.
> 
> ...


Well Im sorry that you feel that way, I am not trying to ignore any advice or come across that way. Im not trying to defend myself, Im just saying it as is. Im looking for insight and it just makes me see things from many other peoples point of views and not just mine. 

For example, before making this thread last night, yes I was unsure which route I should take. But my gut has always told me yesterday that I should ride my mare. This was what I was leaning towards even after my outside trainer tried to convince my otherwise. 

But I just wanted to see what you guys thought. Like I said, there are many experienced horse people in this community that bring up points that Im not able to. It helps in making things clearer for me at times.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Thats my thoughts as well. There will be no perfect time for anything and as much as my outside trainer wants the groundwork on my mare so refined that when I get on, it will be "special"....well thats something you would read in a fairy tale. I dont think many horse owners ride their horse for the first time absolutely expecting it to be "special". Sure they may want it but its not realistic IMO.


No, in a fairy tale they don't wait years before kissing the frog. They jump right to it to see what they get.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Hoofpic said:


> Skyseternalangel said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not an expert nor a novice. I am actually an extremely patient person but I am also someone that used to be supportive and encouraging towards the OP until the OP continued shooting down advice and then complaining when it didn't go right. Back and fourth, back and fourth, across multiple threads.
> ...


Not saying this in a mean way but if you wanted this question answered you could have gone through your last couple of threads because majority of these answers have already been said to you.


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## HombresArablegacy (Oct 12, 2013)

Hoofpic, 

Once again you are over analyzing, over agonizing and anthropomorphising your mare. She's a horse! You're not going on a date with her, she doesn't care one way or another about your inability to make a decision.

Get over yourself and just do it.....or don't. If you don't you'll always have a nice pasture pet that you can coddle, pet, and idolize. 

You seem to think that you have to reach some magical, mystical point of connection with your mare to make it all come together. That ain't gonna happen. She's a horse for Petes sake. You've been riding a lesson horse for how long??? Getting on your mare and riding should be no different. 
She REALLY doesn't care if you ride her or not.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Thats my thoughts as well. There will be no perfect time for anything and as much as my outside trainer wants the groundwork on my mare so refined that when I get on, it will be "special"....well thats something you would read in a fairy tale. I dont think many horse owners ride their horse for the first time absolutely expecting it to be "special". Sure they may want it but its not realistic IMO.


My gelding had months of groundwork before I rode him. He was unbroke when I bought him (didn't even know how to lead politely) and I fractured my ankle coming off another horse a couple of months after I bought him. Since I couldn't ride anyway, we did groundwork. I couldn't move his feet individually just my looking and pointing, but our groundwork was solid.

The first time I rode him, I was a nervous wreck. I had a major panic attack and it didn't help that my BO was being very "aggressive" in his insistence that I ride. My gelding had FOUR RIDES on him at that point. Guess what happened? He was PERFECT. He was careful, attentive, and willing, even though we were in the scariest place I could imagine on a super green horse (in the middle of the driveway/entry into our fairly busy barn). I survived, he survived, and it just got easier from there.

Ride your horse already!


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

JCnGrace said:


> Was your mare broke to ride when you bought her?


Yes



> If she was, did you test ride before buying?


Yes, not long (10mins) but it went fine.



> Did you take a bad fall or what has you so hesitant about riding her?


Not at all.



> Now I'm going to reiterate some things that have already been said because they are important and true.


I agree.



> Waiting for perfection will keep you waiting forever.


I agree. No doubt in my mind that this is 100% true. Why? Because my BO and riding coach told me the exact same thing yesterday. Ride her and go from there. Each time I ride her, it will be a building block, one that I cannot achieve on the ground. Its all about building your partnership in the saddle. 

They keep stressing to me (and have been over the past few months) that I will see things start to make more sense and connect between the two of us once I get in the saddle. I will not get this on the ground.



> Expecting perfection will lead to disappointment.


Yip. I hate the word perfection cause it creates unrealistic expectations and can cause you to micromanage.



> You will create a better and stronger partnership with your mare under saddle than you will from just groundwork. Notice I said just groundwork. The more things you do with your horse the better your relationship will be and it will build a more well rounded horse.


My riding coach said the EXACT same thing to me yesterday.



> Knowledge is great, it's wonderful you entered into horses wanting to learn everything but Rome wasn't built in a day and there is such a thing as info overload. Sometimes is best to learn the basics (riding coach) and once you are comfortable and sure in your knowledge of those basics THEN you move onto more refined things (your outside coach).


I agree. But I do think I can learn both at the same time. Reason is, is because my outside coach dont forget is doing a lot of just basic horsemanship with me and my mare. Remember, I wanted to be observed and I got someone to do that. 

I cant stress this enough, but she has taught me so much in just the past month, that I wouldnt even come close to achieving if I never had her out in the past month. She has really helped me immensely. in so many ways.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> That is an awful wishy-washy answer.
> 
> As Yoda says: "Do, or do not. There is no try."
> 
> ...


I will still ask my riding coach if I can tape it. If not, then I will get someone to take a photo of me during my ride on my mare. I obviously prefer video for my pleasure of being able to review from a 3rd person perspective. But I will get you either you come Friday.



greentree said:


> I say...you are AFRAID to ride, and there is NO way I would put you on her. You need a different horse to ride.


I was never afraid to ride my mare, I was just not confident enough or good enough as a rider. But now I am. 

And like when I was talking with my BO about this on Fri (when he was asking me if I will be riding my mare in a humurous way). I told him that yes I will be because I am confident enough, my gut has been telling me this. But I also said "I dont know what (riding coach) thinks because I havent asked her on whether she feels im ready". 

Well I didnt have to ask my riding coach, because she made it very obvious by flat out asking me yesterday with a serious face "Umm when are you going to ride ____"? So she told me her answer right there. Cause I know for a fact that she would not ask something like that and in that tone of seriousness if she didnt feel I was ready.

And like I said before, what I really like about my riding coach is that she gives me so much encouragement and her positive attitude when she coaches is what pushes me in wanting to go above and beyond what she wants to see out of me. She gives me a lot of confidence. Its a very good quality for any riding coach to have and she does that extremely well.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> You need to have your groundwork refined or it wont mean squat when on their back. And she feels my mares groundwork is not even close to being ready. We are still at Phase 1 of Parelli and we have a lot of work to do.
> 
> But again, like she even said it herself...she has VERY HIGH expectations in terms of refining groundwork. She is a believer, that if it takes years to get the groundwork to her expectations, then it takes years.





Hoofpic said:


> But my outside trainer says that because shes not good enough on the ground, that when I ride her, it will mean nothing because we wont have that connection.


And what, exactly, is "good enough?" There is no such thing as perfection - be it horse or human - so waiting for that before you ride means you will never ride. I don't even know what to say to the 'that connection' statement, as it will certainly not be anything nice.

You said you have been working with your mare for 4+ months. I have been working with my new Arab for the past 6, so not much longer than you have been working with your mare. We are now actively out competing in endurance. Is our groundwork perfect? No. I have never done a Parelli game in my life. But I want to _ride_ my horse, therefore I do. 

What do _you_ want to do with your mare? Figure that out, then do it.


And I have to ask.. why is your mare's name a big secret?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

egrogan said:


> If years of "perfect" groundwork are required to create a "relationship" between horse and rider such that the horse "allows" the person to ask things from the saddle...how have you been successfully riding a lesson horse an hour a week for the past couple of months without getting tossed?


Worth repeating


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Textan49 said:


> I would be curious to see how much better this stud horse was under saddle than the other horses ?


Well the stud was still very green (lady has only had him for a year) as he is a wildie and was unhandled for all of his 9 or 10 year old life.

But I tell you the connection that this stud had with his owner was a sight to see. This studs concentration when being worked was locked onto his owner like a chain to a fence.

He would stand by the owner like a statue for every second the owner was in the roundpen. He would pay absolutely no attention to anything around him. Not even his head would turn around to look at all the other mares around. 

Even when the owner left the roundpen to get something from the house, the stud stood where he was when she left and didnt take a single step even with myself and another person at the gate. Ive never seen anything like this before. 

It was very impressive.

Now being able to look, lock your eyes on one of your horses feet and point with your finger and direct with your finger and eyes to where you would like for that foot to move to, is something that I have never seen before in my life. Even more impressive when she could do it with her standing 50ft away from the other side of the roundpen. Personally, as easy as she said it was to teach something like this, I dont think its as easy and she says. I know its achieved by your energy but I just think this is something that many horses would struggle or take awhile to learn.

And I should mention, she doesnt even ride this stud with a bit. She rides him in something else (forgot the name), but it essentially looks like a bridle, just minus the bit and instead a lead is knotted under the chin. She does this because he has mouth damage and doesnt want to use a bit. So when she rides him, she is riding him by 100% through her legs and hips (which is yes how riding is done, bottom torso and down).


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## tjtalon (Apr 26, 2013)

Get. Out. Of. Your. Head.

Leave. Your. Head. In. The. Car.

Get on the horse!


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Well the stud was still very green (lady has only had him for a year) as he is a wildie and was unhandled for all of his 9 or 10 year old life.
> 
> But I tell you the connection that this stud had with his owner was a sight to see. This studs concentration when being worked was locked onto his owner like a chain to a fence.
> 
> ...


I don't think the horse found learning it to be easy either.
Do you think he was a statue because he wanted to or he knew he darn well better be?


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

All I see is excuses and etched in each new post is a new excuse. 


Raina out


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

egrogan said:


> If years of "perfect" groundwork are required to create a "relationship" between horse and rider such that the horse "allows" the person to ask things from the saddle...how have you been successfully riding a lesson horse an hour a week for the past couple of months without getting tossed?


Because Im riding a lesson mare that (yes she tests her riders, she is very opinionated) but she doesnt buck or rear. When I first started riding her, she would test me left and right, to no end. 

My riding coach warned me about this and this is why she paired me on her. I probably couldnt have asked for a better fit in terms of me learning on. She also was not a beginner horse, as even though I was a beginner of a rider, my coach wanted to throw me onto a horse suited for a more advanced rider. It was a risk, but a risk that obviously has paid off. I will admit, at the time, I was a bit confused on why she would throw me onto such a horse but now I see why.

So this lesson mare would often try to ignore my ques and see what she could get away with and whether or not she sees me as a leader on her back. There were times when I first started riding her that I (unintentionally of course) let her get away with stuff and my riding coach got on my case about this. 

This happened because:

1) My timing wasnt right. I was unable to anticipate. My mind was too busy focusing on other things.
2) I wasn't firm enough on her. 

Also, other things like my eyes were always looking down at the horses ears (terrible habit that I had, that I quickly got rid of), and had other bad habits. Looking back, I was a terrible rider, there is just no other way to put it. The only thing that I had going for me at the start was my balance but everything else was terrible.

So my riding coach was upset and not happy when I would let the lesson mare get away with stuff, but because she was so hard on me about it, I learned and learned fast. I will admit, when my riding coach is hard on you about something, she comes across as arrogant. But that's what makes a great coach. If she wasnt as hard on me as she was, I wouldnt have learned. She has entirely changed my mindset when in the saddle. 

So as my lessons have progressed with this mare, she would still test me but Ive become more confident as a rider in being able to not let her get away with anything, but also pick up on signs and anticipate ahead of time. Once I got the timing right, everything started to feel natural. And like the riding coach told me "once it clicks, it clicks and you will know it" and she was right. And as time went on, this mare and I have built a rapport in the saddle that she stopped testing me. And this now, my riding coach wants me to transfer this over to my mare.

That is why my riding coach chose this mare for me. BEcause she will test her rider and test often. So when I make the transition over to my mare, it wont be too much of a jump.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Well the stud was still very green (lady has only had him for a year) as he is a wildie and was unhandled for all of his 9 or 10 year old life.
> 
> But I tell you the connection that this stud had with his owner was a sight to see. This studs concentration when being worked was locked onto his owner like a chain to a fence.
> 
> ...


Energy?
I could impress you with my energy & my horse's psychic ability to grasp that energy too.
Here's what I won't tell you.
My horse is in a round pen with nothing else to do but pay attention to me.
My horse already knows to back with a hand signal & body language after learning it with a rope on.
I can tell by the way my horse is standing which foot is likely to move first so that is the one I'll tell you I'm instructing the horse to move. 
While I beam in on that foot, which you'll be watching, I'll instruct the horse to move. Guess which foot it moves?
Nothing magical about it.
$50 please.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

natisha said:


> Hoofpic, was the lady with the demo stallion able to precisely move his feet while on him?


I would say no but it was still very good. Now this stud obviously has had much more groundwork on him than saddle time. I think from what I recall being told, she did groundwork with him for just under a year before she started riding him.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

HombresArablegacy said:


> Hoofpic,
> 
> Once again you are over analyzing, over agonizing and anthropomorphising your mare. She's a horse! You're not going on a date with her, she doesn't care one way or another about your inability to make a decision.
> 
> ...


Ive been riding the lesson mare for about 10-12 times over the span of almost 8 months being at this barn. And got to ride one of the boarders mares during the riding clinic a month ago.

Trust me, I absolutely will ride my mare this Friday. And it makes me smile and light up inside just from saying that. Because Im very much looking forward to it. THERE IS NOTHING THAT WILL CHANGE MY MIND.



DraftyAiresMum said:


> My gelding had months of groundwork before I rode him. He was unbroke when I bought him (didn't even know how to lead politely) and I fractured my ankle coming off another horse a couple of months after I bought him. Since I couldn't ride anyway, we did groundwork. I couldn't move his feet individually just my looking and pointing, but our groundwork was solid.
> 
> The first time I rode him, I was a nervous wreck. I had a major panic attack and it didn't help that my BO was being very "aggressive" in his insistence that I ride. My gelding had FOUR RIDES on him at that point. Guess what happened? He was PERFECT. He was careful, attentive, and willing, even though we were in the scariest place I could imagine on a super green horse (in the middle of the driveway/entry into our fairly busy barn). I survived, he survived, and it just got easier from there.
> 
> Ride your horse already!


Thank you for your example and Im glad to hear that it worked out well for the both of you. No doubt I will ride my mare this Friday.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

natisha said:


> Do you think he was a statue because he wanted to or he knew he darn well better be?


Hard to say but I could tell the amount of respect this stud had for his owner. I mean just the fact that he would rather stand beside and hang out with the owner for each second she was in his pen, than him be with his buddies said it all.

Him and his owner had a connection build on lightness, she was never hard on him.

I know one of the ladies who I was with, was recording some video and I will ask if she can send it to me to view. It really was a sight to see.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> .
> 
> My riding coach warned me about this and this is why she paired me on her. I probably couldnt have asked for a better fit in terms of me learning on. She also was not a beginner horse, as even though I was a beginner of a rider, my coach wanted to throw me onto a horse suited for a more advanced rider. It was a risk, but a risk that obviously has paid off. I will admit, at the time, I was a bit confused on why she would throw me onto such a horse but now I see why.


I do hope that you are mistaken or exaggerating about this, because that is a crazy thing to do. It is a teachers job to make sure you are safe, did she at least put you on a beginners horse to asses your abilities?

You know Hoofpic, if a beginner rider, thrown onto an advanced horse, has managed to become such a kick *** rider in all of 10 lessons you must be some kind of savant.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

gypsygirl said:


> I don't think it's a matter of this parelli trainer trying to take your money or rip you off. What she's saying is 100% a parelli thing. You have to be at a certain point of ground work to start riding. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but now it's time to make a choice. You either stick with the parelli stuff or you dump it. You are not really knowledgeable enough on your own to do both.


I know you wont want to hear this and Im sure many on here will be upset to here this. I apologize in advance cause Im sure I will lose some readers when I say this. Before I say what I need to say, I will say this...I am not ignoring your advice and I hope no one on here thinks that I am.

But because things are going so well for me with both trainers, I will continue with both. 

I know I absolutely benefit from having another set of eyes on me when I handle my mare. I have seen the rewards over the past month. Yes my outside trainer teaches on the Parelli method but she has taught me so many things in the past month that I just cant under estimate. Im talking just overall horsemanship.

Using my body language more, my energy, more lightness, better use of the carrot stick, setting tighter boundaries etc. Ive achieved what I wanted to achieve with my riding coach in terms of being a good enough rider. Now, I want to achieve what I want to achieve with my outside trainer in being a good enough leader.

Remember, BEFORE I got back in touch with her, my mare didnt see me as a leader. She does now. And my outside trainer is working with me in every way possible to making sure that it stays this way. 

Like I said, I was down this same road 9 months ago but I lost my mares respect soon after, because I let my foot off the gas and didnt keep up with the horsemanship lessons. Im not making the same mistake again. And having someone work with me twice a week on making sure I dont make this mistake again is something that is worth it to me. Again, short term price for long time reward.

I do confidentally believe I can work with both trainers and continue to build blocks with both.

My outside trainer said to me last night on the phone, she will not be upset if I do decide to ride my mare this Friday. She suggested I dont yet and to hold off but she said its ultimately my decision.

BUT she also said that at the end of the day, she would like for nothing more than to hear me say that I had an awesome ride on my mare. She would be very pleased to hear this.

So, is it safe to say that I can take the bulls by the horn this Friday, prove her wrong and prove to her that I can ride my mare?! I THINK SO!!! Cause I want to show her that I am ready and have her be wowed. Yes the groundwork is not perfect, but I want to show her that I am ready to ride my mare and I can still ride my mare while her and I continue to work on the groundwork. 

This is my goal. Booked in my agenda. Im up for the challenge. And this is why I would like to record my lesson.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

let me tell you a story. my fiance had his 25 year old gelding for lwss then 5 months when he nearly died. he rode him on a bridge/ dock and the horse slipped and fell half way into the water. that horse layed there for over 15 min while my fiance moved him one leg at a time untill he was no longer half way in the water and at risk of falling in, getting tangled and drowning. when he asked that horse to get up he did and all was ok. this horse will go ANYWERE and do ANYTHING my fiance asked him to. this horse has won him buckles in speed events and pattern events. and this horse now at 31 hardly knows basic ground work. you dont need months to get that connection. you build it on the ground AND under saddle.


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## cbar (Nov 27, 2015)

I guess I'm just a little confused. If your horse is saddle broke, and you rode her to try her out before purchasing......what is up with the delay in riding her? This is becoming way too big of a deal than it needs to be. 

You do know that you can ride your mare and still do groundwork, right? 

As for the trainers, that is your call. But if balancing two trainers is stressing you out, then maybe it's time to look at other options. Or maybe find ONE trainer who better meets all your criteria. 

This whole thing makes no sense to me. Especially since I get the feeling you are intimidated by your mare, yet you ride a lesson horse that is not for beginners and handle that just fine.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> I do hope that you are mistaken or exaggerating about this, because that is a crazy thing to do. It is a teachers job to make sure you are safe, did she at least put you on a beginners horse to asses your abilities?
> 
> You know Hoofpic, if a beginner rider, thrown onto an advanced horse, has managed to become such a kick *** rider in all of 10 lessons you must be some kind of savant.


Im not exaggerating. I was thrown onto this lesson mare right from day one. The first time she had me ride, she wanted to assess me as a rider and where im at, she put me on this mare. She is the only lesson horse that Ive ridden there. 

She said that she could put me on another mare, but it would do me no good seeing how they dont test and push your buttons like this mare does.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

cbar said:


> I guess I'm just a little confused. If your horse is saddle broke, and you rode her to try her out before purchasing......what is up with the delay in riding her? This is becoming way too big of a deal than it needs to be.
> 
> You do know that you can ride your mare and still do groundwork, right?
> 
> ...


I'm right there with you Cbar.

Hoofpic, why have you been taking lessons on a lesson horse rather than your own horse? It would have been better for you and your mare.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

So you're going round and round in circles on Saturday and Sunday over a ride that may or may not take place on Friday?

See you Friday,
Take care


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

Hoofpic said:


> Trust me, I absolutely will ride my mare this Friday. And it makes me smile and light up inside just from saying that. Because Im very much looking forward to it. THERE IS NOTHING THAT WILL CHANGE MY MIND.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for your example and Im glad to hear that it worked out well for the both of you. No doubt I will ride my mare this Friday.


Good. I'm glad you've decided to ride her; that really should finish off this conversation for now. Let us know how it works out.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

JCnGrace said:


> I'm right there with you Cbar.
> 
> Hoofpic, why have you been taking lessons on a lesson horse rather than your own horse? It would have been better for you and your mare.


Because i wasnt ready as a rider. I wasnt even close but I am now.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Hoofpic said:


> JCnGrace said:
> 
> 
> > I'm right there with you Cbar.
> ...


Just out of curiosity why did you buy this mare if you knew from the second you got her home you wouldn't be able to ride her?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Rainaisabelle said:


> Just out of curiosity why did you buy this mare if you knew from the second you got her home you wouldn't be able to ride her?


Because he bought the first horse he found, without regard to fit or suitability for the novice owner. 

Like so many of us, should of let someone else do the buying, wasn't until I had a trainer and she found me Gibbs did I understand that. So much time wasted, and probably horses set back ages because I bought without the wisdom of what I should buy.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> Rainaisabelle said:
> 
> 
> > Just out of curiosity why did you buy this mare if you knew from the second you got her home you wouldn't be able to ride her?
> ...


That's fine but he's ridden this horse before, what between then and now has made him take what 6 months to get on ? Ground work is fantastic no doubt but there comes a point where you move on. 



I admit to buying a horse that probably wasn't suited to my skill level but I still committed my self to riding him and I have gotten better for it.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Rainaisabelle said:


> That's fine but he's ridden this horse before, what between then and now has made him take what 6 months to get on ? Ground work is fantastic no doubt but there comes a point where you move on.


Yeah, I got nothing


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## Oreos Girl (May 24, 2011)

Ok, I admit I stopped reading thoroughly somewhere on page 3 but here are my comments. 

1. Horses are creatures with brains, even the best of them are dangerous and can have a bad day. If you can't handle that you may be bucked off at some time, get out of horses now. It does hurt and there is a different level of hurt from falling off (neither you nor the horse was expecting you to come off) and being thrown (horse wanted you off but forgot to inform you).
2. Many people don't like Parelli and one of the most common reason that is listed is that his followers DON'T RIDE THEIR HORSES. Unlike many natural horsemanship trainers, Parelli's is more about the ground work without the balance of riding.
3. You should be able to video any of your lessons. You are paying for that lesson and should be able to go back and see what you did during that lesson that work and what didn't work.

As an interesting note, I tried doing more ground work on one of my horses this spring, and I started having problems with him under saddle. Not sure why and we are still working on it.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Here is your Like @Oreos Girl


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

It is OK to feel nervous about riding. It is OK to admit you feel nervous about riding. Trying to make excuses for not riding so no one will think you are nervous is your main problem. If you really ride on Friday, it may go OK but it will not be perfect. Of course, posting about what a great rider you are and how confident you are is putting pressure on yourself to have the perfect ride and have your mare behave perfectly, which won't happen. That is just not real life.

You have riding instructor because you are not a perfect, seasoned rider. You will do yourself a favor by just accepting the fact that when you start riding, things may not go perfectly. Your mare may not respond immediately to cues. She may ignore you. She might make a misstep that scares you. So what, it is a learning experience learning process for you both.

How about if you just plan your ride to make it a success no matter how small. It is your money and you can sure tell your instructor how you want your first ride to go. You don't have to be on her back for the whole lesson. After your instructor warms her up, commit to just 10 minutes on her back walking only. You said you rode her for 10 minutes before you bought her so you can do it again. If that goes well, go another 5 minutes. Do slow serpentines to practice wide turns and using leg aids. Slow slow slow. Just walking and turning, practicing leg aids and reins (I assume holding two handed). you the time is up, give her back to your instructor to do faster work for a finish.

Each lesson, you ride a little longer and your instructor rides a little less until you are riding the entire lesson.

If you think you need both instructors, you should concentrate more on riding and scale back the groundwork instructor to maybe once a month and put your time and money toward riding. Then you are not "leaving" anyone. You only have to tell the ground instructor that you need to scale back for awhile. See how it goes. Whatever your instructor budget is, most of it should go for riding and you should have at least two lessons a week on your mare . You should be able to saddle, bridle and ride your mare without supervision in 30 days. Make it a goal.

If the above plan is too hard to follow, maybe you should make a conscious decision that your mare is not to be ridden and you want to only do liberty stuff with her. IT would be easier on you to be able to tell people you are just into liberty work and don't intend to ride. Then they will stop making comments.

I don't "get" why you are always asking for others to make a decision for you (just look at the title of your thread) and then disagree with all the advice and perspectives given because your are not getting the answer you want. You say you are just getting perspectives, but what you are really doing is arguing with all the advice.

I have fallen off my mare 3 times in the last year and I am over 60. I have a lot 
farther to fall than you. My bones are not young. I got back up and back on each time as I always have. It is part of the risk of riding. Ask your instructor to teach you an emergency dismount and how to fall.

I, as well as everyone else, will be curious to see if you actually ride on Friday. Good luck.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

OK, Hoofpic I want you to REALLY think about something.....this is a direct quote from you



Hoofpic said:


> *I now know why there arent many Parelli fans on here. Even I saw it, hes nothing but a salesman*. And this is why my BO is so against him, (in fact theres probably not a person on this earth that dislikes him more), cause he even told me tonight (as I went out to the barn tonight and we ended up having a chat about the mane event and what ive learned etc), that he will not go if Pat is there because the price of his admission goes to pat as well. He normally goes every year.
> 
> Despite the BO knowing that I met Pat and sat in on a few of his lessons, hes still glad I went as he thinks an event like this is something every horse owner should experience especially green ones like me.


Now think of this, the person who is teaching you the Way Of Parelli is a salesperson as well, she is selling you the thought and hope of a mystical bond, and horse who behaves like a dog, sit, stay, roll over etc. The Parelli trainers and enthusiasts I know are all very sweet people, and very friendly, I think that it attracts that sort of person, but you can spend a lifetime paying to find this perfection. Of course she is friendly to you, BUT, it pays never ever to forget that a coach you pay has a vested interest in being nice, especially when your goal is so nebulous.

Your riding trainer wants you to be able to ride, still a life time commitment to actually doing it well, but also a lot of people take enough lessons to feel competent and safe (even if they are not) and take themselves out of lessons and just ride.


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## Country Woman (Dec 14, 2011)

I am the last person to tell you what you should do 
go with your gut feelings 

good luck


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Whinnie said:


> It is OK to feel nervous about riding. It is OK to admit you feel nervous about riding. Trying to make excuses for not riding so no one will think you are nervous is your main problem. If you really ride on Friday, it may go OK but it will not be perfect. Of course, posting about what a great rider you are and how confident you are is putting pressure on yourself to have the perfect ride and have your mare behave perfectly, which won't happen. That is just not real life.
> 
> You have riding instructor because you are not a perfect, seasoned rider. You will do yourself a favor by just accepting the fact that when you start riding, things may not go perfectly. Your mare may not respond immediately to cues. She may ignore you. She might make a misstep that scares you. So what, it is a learning experience learning process for you both.
> 
> ...


Pretty much sums up what everyone has been saying for the last 4 threads.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> OK, Hoofpic I want you to REALLY think about something.....this is a direct quote from you
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now this just confuses me...


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Rainaisabelle said:


> Now this just confuses me...


Who me?


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> Rainaisabelle said:
> 
> 
> > Now this just confuses me...
> ...


That Parelli is a salesman but hoof pic has a Parelli instructor..


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Rainaisabelle said:


> That Parelli is a salesman but hoof pic has a Parelli instructor..



Confused, you soon will be :wink:


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Golden Horse said:


> OK, Hoofpic I want you to REALLY think about something.....this is a direct quote from you
> 
> 
> 
> ...



YES 1000x yes! i know a few people who use his method and only one has NOT been put in the hospital by their horse. one was in the hospital for weeks. she switched to Clinton Anderson style training and now the horse is safe to ride. she dose everything with that horse now


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## tinaev (Dec 2, 2012)

Why on earth would you buy a horse you didn't feel comfortable riding?

I got my horse when I was 28. I'd ridden approximately twice in my entire life before that. I was given a skinny, cranky horse and told "Oh sure, he's healthy enough to ride." No mention of training, temperament, nothing. He got six weeks to laze around and be a horse while he gained weight. When the day came I got a saddle, put it on him and waited for a reaction. Nothing. Got a halter and two lead ropes as a "bridle", moved him over to a rock, put on my helmet and GOT ON THE HORSE. And guess what? Nothing bad happened.

In retrospect was this the brightest move? No. Did we die? No. So I considered it a success. Every ride and interaction over the last three years has taught me something about that horse. He's actually much better behaved under saddle than he is on the ground and our saddle time helps our time on the ground. 

It's clear to me from your posts that you feel it's time to start this new phase with your horse but it seems to me that you put too much weight on other people's opinions. If you want to ride your horse, saddle up and ride her. You do not have to be a perfect rider to accomplish something in the saddle. You know the phrase "too many cooks in the kitchen"? That would be very appropriate here.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Hoof pic you know what you could do? Make a journal in the journal thread so you can keep up your progress and put your l questions in there!


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Golden Horse said:


> Confused, you soon will be :wink:


Or this


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Oreos Girl said:


> Ok, I admit I stopped reading thoroughly somewhere on page 3 but here are my comments.
> 
> 1. Horses are creatures with brains, even the best of them are dangerous and can have a bad day. If you can't handle that you may be bucked off at some time, get out of horses now. It does hurt and there is a different level of hurt from falling off (neither you nor the horse was expecting you to come off) and being thrown (horse wanted you off but forgot to inform you).
> 2. Many people don't like Parelli and one of the most common reason that is listed is that his followers DON'T RIDE THEIR HORSES. Unlike many natural horsemanship trainers, Parelli's is more about the ground work without the balance of riding.
> ...


1) I know this, Ive gone through this in the saddle with my lesson mare.
2) im aware that many dont like Parelli. I think Parelli is about riding too.
3) I texted my riding coach and waiting to hear back. If she asks why I want to record, what should I say? Im almost certain she will NOT be okay with this. Shes seen me record my stuff in the past and thinks its odd.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I can record my lessons. In fact my instructor does the recording!


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Rainaisabelle said:


> That's fine but he's ridden this horse before, what between then and now has made him take what 6 months to get on ? Ground work is fantastic no doubt but there comes a point where you move on.


I bought her June 12, 2015.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> 1) I know this, Ive gone through this in the saddle with my lesson mare.
> 2) im aware that many dont like Parelli. I think Parelli is about riding too.
> 3) I texted my riding coach and waiting to hear back. If she asks why I want to record, what should I say? Im almost certain she will NOT be okay with this. Shes seen me record my stuff in the past and thinks its odd.


Tell her the truth...you want to see yourself ride.
Unless she's in the Witness Protection Program or on the Most Wanted List I don't see why she would object unless you want her to hold the camera. I wouldn't film while giving a lesson but I don't mind if the person puts the camera somewhere & just lets it run or has someone else hold it.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

sarahfromsc said:


> I can record my lessons. In fact my instructor does the recording!


I'll sometimes record a part of a lesson to get a point across but I talk too much for a whole session.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

What's cool about her filming is she is watching me anyway, and she will scream happily, "did you feel that?" I am like,"hells bells I did! But what did I do?" Then we stop and review the recording discuss and continue with the lesson.

The instant replay is wonderfully!

One of the few times I adore technology.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Whinnie said:


> If you really ride on Friday, it may go OK but it will not be perfect. Of course, posting about what a great rider you are and how confident you are is putting pressure on yourself to have the perfect ride and have your mare behave perfectly, which won't happen. That is just not real life.


Im not putting any pressure on myself. Like I told my BO today, just go with the flow and if I make a mistake, then I make a mistake. Im confident ill be just fine. 

My coach will be sure it goes well. Heck she thinks im capable of trotting my mare in 20 metre circles on the first day. She obviously has a lot of confidence in me and is a big reason why Im constantly pushing myself.



> You have riding instructor because you are not a perfect, seasoned rider. You will do yourself a favor by just accepting the fact that when you start riding, things may not go perfectly. Your mare may not respond immediately to cues. She may ignore you. She might make a misstep that scares you. So what, it is a learning experience learning process for you both.


I agree. Its a learninf experience.



> How about if you just plan your ride to make it a success no matter how small. It is your money and you can sure tell your instructor how you want your first ride to go. You don't have to be on her back for the whole lesson. After your instructor warms her up, commit to just 10 minutes on her back walking only. You said you rode her for 10 minutes before you bought her so you can do it again. If that goes well, go another 5 minutes. Do slow serpentines to practice wide turns and using leg aids. Slow slow slow. Just walking and turning, practicing leg aids and reins (I assume holding two handed). you the time is up, give her back to your instructor to do faster work for a finish.
> 
> Each lesson, you ride a little longer and your instructor rides a little less until you are riding the entire lesson.
> 
> ...


That is my plan. My trainer will ride first on the first few lessons (maybe more) before i get on. We will assess as time goes on.



> I don't "get" why you are always asking for others to make a decision for you (just look at the title of your thread) and then disagree with all the advice and perspectives given because your are not getting the answer you want. You say you are just getting perspectives, but what you are really doing is arguing with all the advice.


Im not arguing with any advice.



> I have fallen off my mare 3 times in the last year and I am over 60. I have a lot
> farther to fall than you. My bones are not young. I got back up and back on each time as I always have. It is part of the risk of riding. Ask your instructor to teach you an emergency dismount and how to fall.


Ok ill ask her to do that.



> I, as well as everyone else, will be curious to see if you actually ride on Friday. Good luck.


Im all set to ride her Friday. I promise you that.

And i just got a YES from my coach on me recording my lesson!!!!! SHE IS FINE WITH IT!!!

IM SO HAPPY!!!! She said its a great idea.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

HombresArablegacy said:


> OMG! It's too early in the morning to be laughing this hard :rofl::rofl:
> 
> Even Linda Blair has her limits, lol


As do we....lol


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## weeedlady (Jul 19, 2014)

trailhorserider said:


> I know you say you aren't nervous, but your actions suggest otherwise. That or you totally believe things have to be "perfect" before you ride. But she's a horse, she will always have room for improvement. If you are waiting for perfection, you will never ride her.


^^^^this^^^^
_M_


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

I have a headache...


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Rainaisabelle said:


> I have a headache...


Like this?


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

sarahfromsc said:


> Rainaisabelle said:
> 
> 
> > I have a headache...
> ...


More like this


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

One can not go wrong with grumpy cat!


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> OK, Hoofpic I want you to REALLY think about something.....this is a direct quote from you
> 
> Now think of this, the person who is teaching you the Way Of Parelli is a salesperson as well, she is selling you the thought and hope of a mystical bond, and horse who behaves like a dog, sit, stay, roll over etc. The Parelli trainers and enthusiasts I know are all very sweet people, and very friendly, I think that it attracts that sort of person, but you can spend a lifetime paying to find this perfection. Of course she is friendly to you, BUT, it pays never ever to forget that a coach you pay has a vested interest in being nice, especially when your goal is so nebulous.


Im trying not to see my outside trainer as a sales person but I do know that she is. But I also see her as a trainer who cares a lot about building the best partnership possible with her clients and their horses. I can just tell from talking to her, I see the passion in her when she talks. Her and I relate on such an open and comfortable level that I havent had with any of my past trainers (and I think that is a factor that cant be taken for granted).

She knows Im not looking for perfection but just enough to get to the point where I feel confident enough to do some amazing things with my mare. Since seeing her, she has REALLY strengthened me as a horseman. I feel like a different person but I still have a lot of learning to do.

Once things forsure is that over time, I am willing to put in the time required in that liberty work.



> Your riding trainer wants you to be able to ride, still a life time commitment to actually doing it well, but also a lot of people take enough lessons to feel competent and safe (even if they are not) and take themselves out of lessons and just ride.


I agree and this is my goal. I want to get good enough as a rider that I can ride my mare unsupervised like some boarders do right now with their horses. Boy would that be nice eh?! This is my goal as a rider.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Rainaisabelle said:


> Hoof pic you know what you could do? Make a journal in the journal thread so you can keep up your progress and put your l questions in there!


Yes I've considered it but it will eventually get closed because I will lose viewers who feel Im not taking their advice seriously.


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

Why does everyone keep on in this thread? He said he's going to ride her on Friday so let's see what happens. I don't see the need to pick apart every thread hoof pic starts. He has his own way of looking at things; that's just who he is. Whatever. There's no need to keep picking at it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

because despite our frustration we genuinely want to help hoofpic, if only he would see it.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

ShirtHotTeez said:


> because despite our frustration we genuinely want to help hoofpic, if only he would see it.


How am I not seeing it?

I will be riding my mare this Friday and will be recording it.

I know some of you don't understand why I have a trainer who preaches on the Parelli method when I find Pat to be a salesman. Well, that is because like I said before, its the rapport that i have with the outside trainer and she teaches me a lot on just general horsemanship. What has won me over is her technique, she is all about lightness. My ultimate goal with my mare is to have a willing horse and she can help me achieve that. Ever since I have re-connected with this trainer, my mare is not the same horse that she was a month ago. 

We've fixed bad habits of my mare immediately and it was drastic how immediate it was.

This trainer does give me a lot of homework to do, which is to be expected. My biggest key thing to remember is to still have those "be in the moment" days where my mare and I just hang out and dont do anything. Cause I do not want her thinking that each time I am catching her, she is being worked.

Sorry if that doesnt quite make sense.


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

ShirtHotTeez said:


> because despite our frustration we genuinely want to help hoofpic, if only he would see it.




I'm not going to keep posting, but he's told us that he has some learning disabilities. I figure if he can't understand everything we've told him it might have something to do with that, but everyone chips away at his every word, anyway. Maybe we should just let him go at his own pace.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Hoofpic said:


> Yes I've considered it but it will eventually get closed because I will lose viewers who feel Im not taking their advice seriously.


I don't think it would because people would only view it if they wanted to


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

elle1959 said:


> I'm not going to keep posting, but he's told us that he has some learning disabilities. I figure if he can't understand everything we've told him it might have something to do with that, but everyone chips away at his every word, anyway. Maybe we should just let him go at his own pace.


While I know what you're saying its the fact that the same question is repeated consistently and the same answers given. But then the advice is not taken and something new takes it place.

Hoofpic, do what you want ! I am sure you will figure it out and be happy with the result.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I do not understand why you must wait until Friday. If you want to ride, go put the saddle on and ride. This is YOUR horse. Would I ride if the barn was deserted? If I were you, probably not.....but I WOULD go ride, instead of building up all of these stress hormones before Friday!

We must all be insane, as we fit the "definition" perfectly....doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result....

Hoofpic, you said "sorry if it makes no sense", but we are trying to get you to understand...it makes PERFECT sense....remember how we were telling you at the beginning to find even a dog trainer to help you learn HOW to train an animal??? This evelation has little or nothing to do with this new woman, or Parelli and his magic carrot stick. It has EVERYTHING to do with YOU, finally figuring out how to ASK Fly to do something, and get a result...a TRAINABLE MOMENT.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Rainaisabelle said:


> I don't think it would because people would only view it if they wanted to


We will see about that.



Rainaisabelle said:


> While I know what you're saying its the fact that the same question is repeated consistently and the same answers given. But then the advice is not taken and something new takes it place.
> 
> Hoofpic, do what you want ! I am sure you will figure it out and be happy with the result.


Advice has been taken, thank you.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

greentree said:


> I do not understand why you must wait until Friday. If you want to ride, go put the saddle on and ride. This is YOUR horse. Would I ride if the barn was deserted? If I were you, probably not.....but I WOULD go ride, instead of building up all of these stress hormones before Friday!
> 
> We must all be insane, as we fit the "definition" perfectly....doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result....


We were going to do Tues but I need to still buy a saddle pad and havent had any luck at the tradeshow last week. So Fri works better for me cause it gives me a bit of time to find one. I've been trying to find a contour pad in 28" length and 3/4 thickness but no luck. I found contour and in 28" length but only 1" thick pads.

Even at the tradeshow last week, I was even considering just picking up a Back on track pad and using that instead. THey are 1/2" thick. I still might go with a Back on track pad, i have to see.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

400 bucks could have bought tow great pads.

Just saying.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

sarahfromsc said:


> 400 bucks could have bought tow great pads.
> 
> Just saying.


What? I'm looking for a paid under $250cdn. I might just go with the 1" Diamond 28x28 contour pad for $200 but I still would rather have 3/4" pad in case the saddle is too tight with the 1" pad.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

What size/type saddle are you in? For some western saddles 28" down the spine may not be long enough.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> What? I'm looking for a paid under $250cdn. I might just go with the 1" Diamond 28x28 contour pad for $200 but I still would rather have 3/4" pad in case the saddle is too tight with the 1" pad.


She means that for the $400 a month you're paying that Parelli trainer, you could have bought a couple of nice pads.

I agree with whoever said a 28" pad may not be long enough. How long are the skirts on your saddle?


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## ChristineNJ (Jan 23, 2010)

]If years of "perfect" groundwork are required to create a "relationship" between horse and rider such that the horse "allows" the person to ask things from the saddle...how have you been successfully riding a lesson horse an hour a week for the past couple of months without getting tossed?[/QUOTE]

Good point! Ditch the ground work & GET ON YOUR HORSE. It's way beyond time! Didn't you say your trainer will get on your horse first and then you can ride? I thought you had made up your mind but then you just go on & on & on. It's really exhausting to read. I'm going to bed!! Waste of time!:gallop:


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## jenkat86 (May 20, 2014)

I haven't read any responses yet, so I will give you my initial thoughts and then read the other's responses...

What do YOU want to do?

Do you want to ride your mare Friday? Quit worrying about what you think other people think and do whatever you want to do. This isn't a race. 

I'm not even going to say whether or not I think you should ride, because it ultimately doesn't matter. 

I do, however, think you need to pick one trainer or the other very soon. From the past descriptions of both, they are very different and you will soon be getting conflicting information from them. 




Hoofpic said:


> Anyway, we ended up talking for over an hour on the phone and I hope I didnt burn our bridge in terms of her wanting to teach me more here on in by me saying that I will still possibly ride my mare this Friday, or I will perhaps postpone it. She said its ultimately my decision, and I do see her point and mindset when she said that she wants the ground work refined and that when she gets on a horse, she wants it to be "special". *But if I was to ride my mare (even if it was 15mins), and say it went really well...that she would be upset and hold the grudge against me because I didnt take her advice. *
> 
> She said that she would like to see me ride the lesson mare. *But the thing is, I dont think my riding coach would be okay with this. Infact Im almost certain (and if its not her, then it would be the BO who wouldnt be okay with this) in terms of having another trainer audit while she teaches me. *
> 
> ...


Everything bolded, italicized and underlined are plain old assumptions. It's not fair to you or either one of your trainers to assume any of those things. You set yourself up for major disappointment and can "create" issues that aren't even there by doing this.


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## jenkat86 (May 20, 2014)

Rainaisabelle said:


> Hoof pic you know what you could do? Make a journal in the journal thread so you can keep up your progress and put your l questions in there!


I've suggested this about 5 times...threads won't get closed for going off topic that way!!!


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## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

Hoofpic said:


> But on the other hand, my outside trainer does have a point. Everything starts from the ground up. You need to have your groundwork refined or it wont mean squat when on their back.
> And she feels my mares groundwork is not even close to being ready. We are still at Phase 1 of Parelli and we have a lot of work to do..


 This is total BS, if you can lead, groom, saddle your horse, and she respects your space. Your groundwork is more than refined enough to ride. Your outside "trainer" is taking you for a ride, instead of you riding your horse. Of course she thinks your horse needs more groundwork, that's how she gets paid. 

Ride. Your. Horse!


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## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

Golden Horse said:


> OK, Hoofpic I want you to REALLY think about something.....this is a direct quote from you
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 LIKE.... since I still dont have a like button


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*Moderating*

Some posts have been removed from this thread because they were not in keeping with Horse Forum rules
If anyone doesn't want to offer helpful advice then please ignore the thread and move on


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## 3rdTimestheCharm (Jan 18, 2015)

evilamc said:


> What size/type saddle are you in? For some western saddles 28" down the spine may not be long enough.


I was wondering about this as well.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

evilamc said:


> What size/type saddle are you in? For some western saddles 28" down the spine may not be long enough.


Its a western (not sure the brand) but it measures 24" from the very front of the very back. 28" is definitely long enough. My mare has a short back as well.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

*This thread is now closed, it is just chasing its own tail and going nowhere fast. *


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

*Mod note #2*

Hoofpic has a large following of interested parties (us). That is great.

Personally I have advised him to keep his threads on one task, not to muddle them up with side issues and other questions as it becomes difficult to look back through epic length threads searching out replies to certain questions that have already been asked. 

HF members who follow him bring up issues and questions from past threads. This, in addition to his habit of answering every single reply generally serves to muddle a thread and create frustration on everyone's part. We should know by now our suggestions-questions-advice is carefully considered by him.

I'm tempted to close this thread until Friday - the riding lesson day, because harping on him will do no good. 

Then again, let's all look forward to a good week. Getting his saddle fitted and padded properly will be helpful.

Hoofpic, 

I am always looking for shorter pads. A 28 inch (length) pad would be great for my short horses, who generally have short backs, and use saddles with short skirts. Have you put the saddle on your mare yet? Do you have tie straps and an appropriate cinch. When I get a new (used) saddle I have to go through several fittings (done myself) with various pads to get the best fit I can.

So my suggestion is: this week (before lesson day), tack her up several times and get her comfortable. I like to snug the saddle and move a horse around watching for flopping at the rear of the saddle.


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