# Controversial subject // abuse in the western Pleasure industry



## RZstoney98 (Jan 1, 2017)

Being a western Pleasure exhibitor myself, I love the class and have absolutely no intention of bashing it.

However, some recent searching has prompted me to wonder, how much of what we see in the western Pleasure world is forced or caused by abuse or harsh treatment to the horse? I have seen very very few high level AQHA Pleasure horses that actually move even remotely recognizeably to how they appear in a show class. I have also seen many detriments to older show horses after having been shown in western Pleasure their whole lives (I do not feel that a simple w/t/l class with no hard stops or maneuvers should be this hard on a horses body unless it is in fact, unnatural).

I also found these below pictures of leading AQHA sire VS Flatline, who appears to have spur marks (in top photo, and then clearly edited out in bottom). This also prompts me to question the true integrity of the horse industry.

Really wanting to start an educational thread here about detriments that it can have, ways to compete without being detrimental, and just discussion of why's and how's of the class (or potential "abuse").

** please kindly keep all "bashing" or hate out of this thread, thank you.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

> This also prompts me to question the true integrity of the horse industry.


Well, as _bashless_ as I can say it, yes there is absolutely some gross stuff that goes on in showing. 

I can't comment on the marks since the picture isn't high enough resolution to actually see what those are. 

This is far from limited to Western Pleasure. I think just about every major discipline, especially those with money behind them has people who will go to extra measures to win. 

Their name, their reputation and their business as trainers depends on taking clients horses to shows and doing well. The clients in some cases carry the blame. They spent a lot of money on a horse and want to be a champion yesterday. 

Objectively I think it is probably worse in the events where there is big money on the line. Some disciplines, especially the ones where you show by yourself there is added incentive for the cheaters/abusers to make sure they don't blow it. 

I think the vast majority of horse people wouldn't do this. The disheartening thing is when you see the guy riding a horse with sore hocks and an extreme forced head carriage win again and again. That makes people go home and figure out how to compete with a standard that shouldn't be a standard. That is the cycle that creates most of these problems in the show ring.


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## RZstoney98 (Jan 1, 2017)

jgnmoose said:


> Well, as _bashless_ as I can say it, yes there is absolutely some gross stuff that goes on in showing.
> 
> I can't comment on the marks since the picture isn't high enough resolution to actually see what those are.
> 
> ...


I completely agree, I guess this thread is also just kind of a rant from those of us who don't do these things and will never be placed at a high level because of that.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

RZstoney98 said:


> I completely agree, I guess this thread is also just kind of a rant from those of us who don't do these things and will never be placed at a high level because of that.


I'm sure it is regional to a point. I pick on judges a little bit because I feel they have a very real impact on what winning a class means. Over time they shape what is correct, if you want to win. Some of these people have cruel or weird ideas about what looks good, I'll just leave it at that. 

I edited my heated rant above lol, same message different words.


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## Msail (Jul 20, 2013)

I'm sorry if I offend anybody, but I think that western pleasure riding is hideous looking. Riders don't look good, the horses all look lame and beat-down, the movement looks terrible... Here is a good example 




If you skip to the lope on this mare, if this were any other "discipline" I would say that horse is lame! Hind legs are totally stiff, she is dragging herself along with her front legs, very rocking and jerky. Her head seems to stay mostly on the verticle, but most of the time when I see western pleasure riders their horses heads are tucked up into their chests, and every time the horse tries to get a break the rider jerks their hand up and pulls the head back in. Plus, that trot... I know it's comfortable, but you're not getting anywhere fast going that slow! If people want comfort, why don't they get a gaited horse? I really, really do not care for western pleasure.

Another thing I dislike about it is the riders never seem to "ride" the horses - they sit in the saddle and get pushed back and forth like a pinball between the cantle and pommel. When I see them at a trot, I'm not sure if they're trying to kick the horse on or not, but their legs are always moving back and forth very obviously. They sit like they're in a big chair, instead of engaged and riding a real animal.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

This is coming from someone with no personal experience in WP, or even horse competition- it's just what I saw with my own eyes. 

I wanted to take my guy to a small local show, and ended up not being able to, so I watched instead. This place had maybe 60 participants, western and English, very local, no big huge money prizes. I saw some very horrible things that day, and I was glad I didn't bring Trouble. 

I will admit, I snooped quite a bit. 

One:
I was watching the warm up for the senior level WP. An older woman was trying to slow her geldings lope down, when she hopped off in the middle of the ring and lead him out. I hate to admit but I was nosey and followed, after all- it's a public barn. 
She had a team of FIVE people try to hold that horse while she gave him a big old double dose of sedatives. When she returned to the ring he had his head on the ground, slowly loping along with half lidded eyes. She placed in first. 
In part I blame the judges. Anyone can see that was a sedated horse. He had drool coming out of his mouth for crying out loud. 

Two: 
A little girl (9-11 yo) was participating in the keyhole, which the judges agreed to have walk/lope- instead of wide open for novice riders. She was on a monster of a Quarter horse. I was standing next to the entry gate with my camera to get some good shots. In the chute I hear her tell someone she doesn't want to do the keyhole and that she's scared. I'm assuming her father answered her and told her "you're doing this or I'll shoot that horse when we get home." That horse bolted out of the chute, bolted blindly around the arena with this tiny girl holding on for dear life crying. She was trying to stop him and when he did stop he started bronco bucking and threw her into the fences.

Three: 
A teenage girl in the WP class, see-sawing her horses mouth because he didn't have his head low enough. Her father stepped in, and told her if she did it again he'd haul her off the horse and take them home. 

Now this is my experience with low level, local, low prize showing. I found it awful. I do partly blame the judges, but I partly blame the people for blindly following along and not educating themselves.


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## Msail (Jul 20, 2013)

I agree that a lot of the blame can be placed on the judges. If they don't choose winning horses that ride the way they do, then people wouldn't be doing these things! The same goes for halter classes, imo. 








when a horse that looks like this is a champion mare, I really just cannot fathom what is going on in the judge's heads. How they can look at a horse, then look at a horse like that, and think that is superior. It makes me so heartbroken for the horses that they are subject to things like this


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Yes I think it is all of it. The cycle is judges preferring something, then people take it on as gospel, then it becomes normal. There is no explanation for several things you'll see in the show arena as far as real horsemanship goes. Talking like being able to actually do stuff on your horse. 

I relative of mine is so competitive that I wouldn't play Uno with that guy. He wouldn't leave my house until he has beaten everyone to his satisfaction. Pair crazy things people do for ribbons with that kind of personality and you've got the recipe. 

I moved on to Ranch Pleasure as far as showing. For now, the expectations are a horse that can actually do a job being shown to be broke and nice to handle.

My favorite example of the moment is a young lady, probably 15 or 16 that couldn't sit the stop hard enough for her rundowns. This is Reining. Your chance to make up extra points in Reining is the spins and run downs. Well, she couldn't sit that stop like you should so she got a score that put her out of the money, even though she did good on the rest of the pattern. She had her trainer out there (who can sit the stop) doing run downs and sliding stops on that poor horse for what had to be 20 minutes after the class wrapped up. That horse paid for this girl's riding by getting his butt handed to him by someone who can really ride. It seemed very wrong.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

As for spur marks- you can't really tell from a picture. We don't know the story. If you ride with spurs and your horse spooks or bucks, your going to do whatever it takes to stay on and your horse could end up looking like that. 

I know I had a horse a couple years ago that my father bought me, came with his bridle and saddle but wasn't ridden a lot for a year or so. I hopped on and went for a nice long trail ride, and when I took his bridle off he had nasty cuts on the corners of his mouth from his cheap loose ring that had sharp edges and pinched him. It sure looked like I yanked and tugged on his mouth the whole ride but I rode on a loose rein. If I had to advertise him I'd edit them out of his picture. I felt awful because I automatically assumed his bridle fit/was acceptable. If someone had seen him they'd automatically think I had pulled hard enough on the reins that I cut him.


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## RZstoney98 (Jan 1, 2017)

Overall my experience with local shows has been positive.. however I have to complain about the number of "trainers" I see at this level who EVERYONE looks to for advice, even as their horses are causing problems in classes and warmup arenas, not to mention rough handling.. Especially in warmup arenas. I have seen a lot of what you've mentioned above, and a part of me wants to never show again. But I'll admit I do have a competitive side


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> This is coming from someone with no personal experience in WP, or even horse competition- it's just what I saw with my own eyes.
> 
> I wanted to take my guy to a small local show, and ended up not being able to, so I watched instead. This place had maybe 60 participants, western and English, very local, no big huge money prizes. I saw some very horrible things that day, and I was glad I didn't bring Trouble.
> 
> ...


I in no way am saying the the show scene is without bad examples, but to try and state that everyone who shows, does well, must use abusive techniques, must drug their horse, puts winning above all else, it just not so
I. not going to get dragged into the entire western pl thing again,, so am staying general, as I don't plan to go down that rabbit hole again
I do know there are people that train and ride show horses, including western pl, reining, dressage , games, etc, etc who are not abusive , do not put winning above all else, and that you can win, on a good horse, without resorting to any abuse.
Look around you, and you will certainly see abuse at rodeos, recreational riders, and anywhere else you see horses being used
It is also very common for those that do not do well at shows, to then instantly proclaim that everyone winning, is drugging their horse, is using abusive techniques, versus admitting to themselves that perhaps why some of those trainers are winning, is because they have very good horses, and know how to train them
Far as you observing a horse being drugged-then report it! Put in a show protests, putting your money up. If the protest is upheld, then you get your money back, and something also gets done.
Have yet to see a horse at a recognized show win, with foam coming out of the mouth. A drugged gelding will also 'hang'
There are drug tests, used to catch those cheating, and a judge can;t eliminate a horse under just suspicions, although at any show with good competition, that horse would not be used
Now you might have seen some very bad examples, but let me give you the other side of the coin.
My one friend was a 4H leader, who herself showed in reining and working cowhorse
She once let her one daughter use her mare at a youth show. The child jerked on a rein, and my friend told her that she was done for the day. In spite of tears, the horse was loaded up and taken home
So, to try and find such an extreme example, one I never wittnessed or heard in all my years of showing, is just trying to bash, JMO
That is like seeing someone of a certain skin color beat their child, and then decide everyone of that skin color must be a child beater!


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Yes of course smilie! I didn't mean anything to that extent. I should have added that what I meant was that if I witnessed what I did at a low level, local fun show, I could only imagine what high prize, top level horses are subjected to. I also should have mentioned all the wonderful riders I witnessed, like a six year old girl who could sit better, and was softer than more "experienced" riders. It's also about who teaches you. If you're someone who was taught by a unorthodox coach or trainer, most of the time you'll pick up and try to justify the bad habits they taught you. 

I know a guy who had a few apprentices that was still teaching them to run a horse in the round pen until his knees shake after being snubbed for two days with no food or water. He was training a legacy of bad trainers.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think the OP was mainly asking if there was any detrimental results of the style of riding in WP, and in particular, the extreme style that might be a result of unnatural training techniques. are these detrimental to the hrose?

I'd like to know that, too. I don't ride WP, have never seen a real show, only a whole bunch of varying videos from prior online tussles on the subject, here. folks posted 'good' and 'bad' examples of the gaits, and I found ALL of them looked crazy ugly to me. but, , but, the question IS; is this detrimental to the horse, the physical and mental horse.

I'd like to know, too.


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## Tori Taylor (Oct 9, 2015)

I used to show very competitively in the 90's. I did western pleasure, trail, team penning, and working cow. This was on Arabs and half Arabs NOT QH but as I was a judge and competitor at many, many locals shows I did see all the QH trainers and horses who used locals shows as practice for bigger venues. At that time Arabs were trying to slow down but all had normal head carriages etc (I have NO idea what they are doing in Arab western pleasure now). To my recollection this was when all the QH people were beginning to work on the slow jog and that weird crippled looking lope. It wasn't what was currently accepted but I began to see more and more of the horses and trainers who used the locals shows as jumping off points to regional shows and more and more of them had the absurdly low head carriage, super slow jog and weird lope. I personally as a judge did not always award those horses unless there was simply no choice because all the others horses were out of control or something. What I gradually saw happening over the 5 to 8 years I was showing a lot was that more and more of these super slow horses were winning. I think a lot of it is the bigger more popular trainers were taking them in and had more moeny behind them etc. Apparently some judges started awarding them and it became a trend. In my opinion it is awful the horses often look like they cannot move naturally, many are downhill and even if they are not drugged many look drugged. It is not an appealing looks and if you look at horse structures form the 80's and 90's and compare to horses from now (I mean ones that were very competitive) you will see structural changes overall with different shoulder laybacks, head and neck tie in differently and the horses overall appear more downhill. As I said I am speaking of QH, Paints, Appys all of the stock type horses. Honestly I haven't followed Arabs even though that was what I competed in. I am only now familiar with some halter Arabs.

I posted a few photos I took randomly form the internet 2 form the 80's/90'ss and 2 from 2015 or so. Not anyone I know just random photos picked to show the difference in the horses and riders. I much prefer both the horses and riding style from then to now.


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## Broncogirl89 (Oct 13, 2016)

Msail said:


> I'm sorry if I offend anybody, but I think that western pleasure riding is hideous looking. Riders don't look good, the horses all look lame and beat-down, the movement looks terrible... Here is a good example
> Choc Out My Lope AQHA - YouTube
> If you skip to the lope on this mare, if this were any other "discipline" I would say that horse is lame! Hind legs are totally stiff, she is dragging herself along with her front legs, very rocking and jerky. Her head seems to stay mostly on the verticle, but most of the time when I see western pleasure riders their horses heads are tucked up into their chests, and every time the horse tries to get a break the rider jerks their hand up and pulls the head back in. Plus, that trot... I know it's comfortable, but you're not getting anywhere fast going that slow! If people want comfort, why don't they get a gaited horse? I really, really do not care for western pleasure.
> 
> Another thing I dislike about it is the riders never seem to "ride" the horses - they sit in the saddle and get pushed back and forth like a pinball between the cantle and pommel. When I see them at a trot, I'm not sure if they're trying to kick the horse on or not, but their legs are always moving back and forth very obviously. They sit like they're in a big chair, instead of engaged and riding a real animal.


I cannot stand this so called riding...first time i seen it, I couldn't believe how broken the horses look. They look lame when trotting and what is it with the draping reins. Yuck...sorry not sorry.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I think the OP was mainly asking if there was any detrimental results of the style of riding in WP, and in particular, the extreme style that might be a result of unnatural training techniques. are these detrimental to the hrose?
> 
> I'd like to know that, too. I don't ride WP, have never seen a real show, only a whole bunch of varying videos from prior online tussles on the subject, here. folks posted 'good' and 'bad' examples of the gaits, and I found ALL of them looked crazy ugly to me. but, , but, the question IS; is this detrimental to the horse, the physical and mental horse.
> 
> I'd like to know, too.


No, not the ones trained correctly and that have the natural ability
It can be hard on the hocks, as in any athletic horse that uses his hocks well
All I;m going to say, is that I never used any artificial training techniques and way less artificial aids then seen in many other disciplines, using just a snaffle or bosal to start a horse, no cavassons, no martingales, no spur stop, no hock injections, no blocked tails.
Yes, I never competed at World levels, but quite a few of my horses earned ROMS in western pl, both open and non pro, I trail rode those horses, did other events on them, even chased cows
Jumpers get hunter bumps, many horses in various disciplines, competing enough, wind up needing hock injections
The way western pl horses are expected to move in the show ring, does not mean they ride out like that, and a good one trained correctly, can move out as well as any other horse
In the end, there is not one discipline that can point fingers, as all have within their ranks, those that are abusive, will do anything to win, esp when enough money is at stake, and that certainly includes racehorses,polo ponies, draft competition horses, you name it/.
How about the recreational rider, that rides with a big honking curb, two handed, and then adds a tiedown? Guess what happens, sometimes those horses drown-seen it happen!
How had is it on a rope horse, to stop a steer?
I have a picture, from actually the December issue of the Appaloosa Journal, spot lighting an Appaloosa champion barrel horse, showing the horse rounding the barrel, snaffle pulled through the mouth, to the point the joint is showing. might that hurt the horse?
Anyone want to go into specific abuse in the western pl industry, wade through what is considered good and what is bad, just search this topic on this forum, as it has been gone into au nausium before, and I.m not taking that detour or serve as guide again!


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

One thing I noticed from old vs new, the length of a "loose rein" increased drastically. Old was a normal loose rein, new is drooping reins down to the horses knees or lower. I always thought that'd be dangerous. What the heck would happen if one of those horses decided to have a fit or spooked hard? Especially in the 2yo championships. Some of those horses are mentally wrecked by five, or so completely ring sour they're deemed unridable.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I think Smilie has a point.

We bought a nine-year-old retired team roping horse. Big pedigree and all of that.

He developed something (docs never did figure out exactly what it was) that appeared to be neurological in nature with symptoms similar to EPM. Ran blood tests for everything imaginable and then did full spinal x-rays and wouldn’t you know it, he had arthritis between the c6-c7 vertebra.

Nine years old. Might live another 20 years or more. Wasn’t even really in his prime yet and he had arthritis. From what I was told it would have been right where the withers get torqued from dallying off. 

Worse yet, because his balance was affected by the neurological issue, he re-inured his suspensory ligament. Which, an ultrasound, MRI and another set of x-rays later, was determined was serious enough the first go-around to have ended his roping career. Despite his nice looking pedigree and being a performance bred horse from the Waggoner, built like a tank, he was going to be a "light rider" from that point forward. Took another year and a half of rest and rehab to get him ridable “just” for trails again. 

We do things to our horses that add stress to them. Whether it is running barrels, jumping, cutting/roping cattle, WP, being on the heavier end of OK as far as weight or simply pushing them beyond the level of performance they are conditioned for.

If we don't want to ever cause undue wear and tear on them, the only alternative often seems to not ride at all. I don't think anyone is advocating for that. 

So we go forward and be as conscientious as we can be...


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Two legitimate questions I have, Whatta.

1) What does keyhole have anything to do with WP? Was it somehow connected at that show? 
2) What horses in the WP industry have you witnessed that have been mentally wrecked by five, and what sort of training have you noticed starts a particular trend in that direction on young horses?






I quite like this horse.
I sometimes enjoy just floating around on something that wonderfully slow and comfortable. It is the idea, after all - Something you can ride all day without hurting your back. I don't have a horse in the barn I can do that on now. Makes me wish I would have kept one from a couple years back at my last job, then at least I'd have a good couch-like equine to lope about on. 

I don't have any interest in going down the WP rabbit hole either, but I'll say this - There is good and bad everywhere. If I only ever saw the bad, I'd say the WP trainers are breaking their horses necks, the reiners and blowing out their hocks, the barrel racers are making their horses insane, the jumpers are blowing out their knees, and the trail riders are leaving their horses out for cougar bait overnight.

A basic understanding of equine anatomy and muscular structure will enable you to train a horse in your set discipline without ruining it. Unfortunately with any judged event you will always be at someone else's mercy, but if you're noisy enough, you'll make a change at some point or another. *Every* horse industry needs people to speak up. Join clubs. Vote. Go to meetings. Have dinner with the judges when you get a chance. Get to know people. If you just hole yourself up, whine about your judges decision, pack your bags and go away - What's ever going to get changed?

Maybe I'm just obnoxious. If I'm at a show and I don't like what's going on, I step in right away. I've been around long enough that people accept that from me, either because they're actually grateful or they just want me to shut up. Who knows.

Just don't think I have the right to whine and moan if I'm not doing something about it.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

That jog and lope are forced, most likely with hobbles and tying the head low. 
No way is that in any way shape or form close to natural. That is just as cruel as the TWH big licks . The super low head set got popular for horses with ugly necks and ewe necks, Easier to hide an ugly neck . An aqha judge told me this years ago, and then the lower necks turned into the peanut roller, and then into this.. 
Shameful. Again if the judges had these horses removed from the ring as being unsound, or never placed them, this would stop.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

stevenson said:


> That jog and lope are forced, most likely with hobbles and tying the head low.
> No way is that in any way shape or form close to natural. That is just as cruel as the TWH big licks . The super low head set got popular for horses with ugly necks and ewe necks, Easier to hide an ugly neck . An aqha judge told me this years ago, and then the lower necks turned into the peanut roller, and then into this..
> Shameful. Again if the judges had these horses removed from the ring as being unsound, or never placed them, this would stop.


Have you ever seen a WP trainer hobble a horse and force it to move like that?
Have you been around any WP bred foals?


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## Msail (Jul 20, 2013)

I think the point that every discipline has abuse is irrelevant to this discussion. Everybody's aware of it and nobody is denying it, but for the purposes of this particular discussion, we're focusing on abuse in western pleasure and what that might do to a horse. So it's just "beating a dead horse" to keep defending WP by saying well all disciplines do it. And I know that nobody here would ever defend animal abuse, but you get my meaning. We know it happens, but that doesn't make it okay, and bringing up the other disciplines doesn't help because that's not what this is about.

As for the arthritis, do you think it's because they are started too young and worked too hard? or is it just the nature of the work - unnaturally slow movement?


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

This is an excellent post, and hits the nail on the head.



Tori Taylor said:


> I used to show very competitively in the 90's. I did western pleasure, trail, team penning, and working cow.
> 
> To my recollection this was when all the QH people were beginning to work on the slow jog and that weird crippled looking lope.
> 
> ...


Today QH and Arabian Western Pleasure share the same basic idea but look pretty different beyond that. 

The hot thing in Arabian Western Pleasure is having that 'seahorse' look to the neck and head, just lower. The horses that have a little more extreme angle tend to do better that I've noticed.

Your point was spot on. "Correct" is whatever the judges promote by giving them a place, it is a moving target, and people are not going to train for what won the class 20 years ago.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Msail said:


> I think the point that every discipline has abuse is irrelevant to this discussion. Everybody's aware of it and nobody is denying it, but for the purposes of this particular discussion, we're focusing on abuse in western pleasure and what that might do to a horse. So it's just "beating a dead horse" to keep defending WP by saying well all disciplines do it. And I know that nobody here would ever defend animal abuse, but you get my meaning. We know it happens, but that doesn't make it okay, and bringing up the other disciplines doesn't help because that's not what this is about.
> 
> As for the arthritis, do you think it's because they are started too young and worked too hard? or is it just the nature of the work - unnaturally slow movement?


Where "other disciplines" does come in is relevant here where the OP queried with regards: 

_"I have also seen many detriments to older show horses after having been shown in western Pleasure their whole lives (I do not feel that a simple w/t/l class with no hard stops or maneuvers should be this hard on a horses body unless it is in fact, unnatural)."
_

In order to either support or diffuse that statement, with the suggestion that it is perhaps the unnatural movement of WP that causes injury, one must compare to a discipline that mostly does only W/T/L without the hard stops or maneuvers and in fact is supposed to develop proper movement of the horse. That might be something such as dressage. Why is Lameness so common in Dressage Horses? | The Horse Magazine 

Horses across all disciplines in competition experience physical stresses and injuries. Therefore, it would be logical to conclude it is not the unnatural movement found in WP that causes injury but, perhaps other factors need to be considered.

As you suggested, the age a horse is started might be one. How they are started might be another. The rate at which the requirements for performance are accelerated, proper conditioning might be another and repetitive movement under saddle with a singular focus might be yet another.


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## Cynical25 (Mar 7, 2013)

Msail said:


> As for the arthritis, do you think it's because they are started too young and worked too hard? or is it just the nature of the work - unnaturally slow movement?


What arthritis? What unnaturally slow movement?


I've ridden WP horses on and off for years (QH & Arab.) I've ridden perfectly sound 28 yr olds who were gently started as 2 & 3yr olds - some of whom successfully competed at QH Congress. Conscientious trainers do have the horse's best interest in mind and won't push beyond the horse's build and mindset. I have H/J and Eventing friends who must wrap their 5 & 6 year old horses' legs after a session just to keep them sound - I've never had to do that after a WP lesson.


My current 6 yr old WP-bred horse has never once been asked to slow his natural movement down or lower his head. In fact, his natural choice of gaits are so slow I more often have to ask for better impulsion, and his neck comes out so low from his chest his ears may occasionally drop below his withers. My Arabian can actually walk as fast as my QH's natural slow lope, though he occasionally gallops with her in the pasture because he is physically able. But it's his choice, his desire, his breeding that causes him to WANT to move low and slow, not pain and force. I enjoy the easy, slow, comfortable jog and lope he offers. Other rides, I enjoy the springy, energetic gaits my Arab offers. They are completely different horses, and neither would look or feel good being forced to move like the other.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I've said this before and no doubt will be moved to say it again. Hopefully at longer and longer intervals as I'm sure it is boring and annoying to most. 

WP has one thing in common with all other horse competitions: it's a competition, and it follows the rule of all organized competitions I have ever observed, which is that there is no one to blame for the excesses and abuses which always accompany competition, first small, experimental and random, then increasingly common, and finally, standardized and ubiquitous. It is emphatically not the fault of judges, not the fault of unethical competitors, not the fault of money. Blame cannot be attributed to any particular part of the whole, because that's what it is: a whole system. Like all systems, it controls itself in a cybernetic feedback loop. Anyone participating in the system becomes part of the system and is forced to play by its rules. 

Let's say, you think the costumes people wear in WP are stupid, so you dress like a real cowboy instead. No ribbons for you. Or you think a natural, not an unnatural, headset, makes more sense. You'll lose. You will lose until you quit. The system will spit you out as a noncompliant, irregular piece that it had no use for. 

If you are a judge, and pin those who best approximate a natural gait with a natural headset, guess what will happen to you? Same thing. The committee which appoints judges at that show will get so many complaints about you from the usual winners who didn't place this time, that you'll never be hired again for that show and probably in the whole area. 

There are only two ways to really change these kinds of systems. The easier one is to start a new system with the aim of rewarding the things which were original to the current system but which have now been irretrievably lost. This happens all the time, and has happened to WP in several interesting directions.

The harder one is to force the old system into a new pattern. Force being the operative word -- just changing the wording in the rule book won't effect a change, there will need to be outside inspectors with measuring devices, and the power to remove noncompliant teams. That's the kind of force I'm talking about. Nothing else will work that I know of, because the system, as I've already said, is a strong web of overlapping feedback loops which work to keep the system intact. 

Human beings have a competitive streak in them, and this streak is promoted and even exalted in some cultures (none more so than the USA) and damped in others, in favor of more community-mindedness. Personally, I find that when I am competitive I don't like the person I become, while when I am engaged in contributing to the well-being of others or the group at large, I am better pleased (although essentially I'm a fragile loner who can't bear the stress of other people around me very long no matter what we're doing together). 

Also I have the kind of mind which steps back and considers the whole rather than the pieces alone. It's not a common trait, I've found. It's unpopular, too -- very few people find the big picture of any more than momentary interest, if that. But that's all I got ....


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I do think that the flack the discipline has received over recent years has maybe pushed the AQHA to get it back to being more the way it used to be. I know that Cherie and I think Smilie too have shown photographs of latter day WP horses that were much the same as those shown by Tori Taylor that were a far cry from the horses we have seen being placed at the top, staggering around with their noses just about clearing the floor - even though the rules were clearly asking for the poll to NOT be below the withers
The 'correct and incorrect' photos in this link from Horse and Rider show a very definite improvement in what the judges should be looking for
Western Pleasure: First, Be Correct | Horse&Rider


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

There are videos that show desired movement, and other where hroses are showing everything that is wrong in the industry

To suggest that top western pl horses are trained using hock hobbles, tying head low, just shows zero knowledge as to how a good western pl horse is trained
A well bred western pl horse has the natural ability to move slow legged, flat kneed, and training only refines that natural ability Trying to force a horse, that does not have those attributes, plus a natural level topline, results in what is seen that is 'bad', where more becomes better.
I was not going to get into this, but I can assure people, that a well trained western pl horse, with the breeding, ability and a good trainer, is not trained through any abusive techniques, are happy horses, are horses loved by their non pro and youth riders, like horses in any other discipline, where people put the horse first
I understand that people outside of the discipline, don't get it, that the show ring movement of a western pl horse, able to be competitive at top NSBA or breed level, shows increased ability and level of training, as any well trained horse can perform three gaits on a loose rein, and what will win the class at open schooling shows
The extra expectations , in upper level western pl, separate the great horses from the average horse, when every one of those horses, unlike at an open show, can perform all three gaits, keep a level topline, rate speed on a loose rein
UNless you have ever ridden such a horse, been through the training program actually know how to decide when a horse is moving slow, yet correct, how can you decide to judge western pl?
Can you go to show and jr judge, know which horse is moving slow, yet correct, esp at the lope, from those that are not?
Yes, there are bad examples out there, and I will be the last to deny that. Why is that?
Well, western pl, being a rail class, is deceiving simple-just go both ways in the ring, get both leads, and thumbs up, in most people's eyes, esp those outside of the western pl industry
Quite another, to have that horse move slow legged, rate speed, topline and collection on a totally loose rein, and esp, while performing a true three beat lope, which is called the 'money gear' in western pl
Jaydee is correct, that western pl did go through a particularly dark period, when horses like Zippo Pine Bar first appeared, horses that had the natural ability to move slow, yet correct, and were winning, with people then trying to make horses into western pl horses that did not have either the breeding or ability, where more became better, and where that movement was forced by un ethical trainers, by whatever means, be it blood letting, head hanging, ect.
But, to label all western pl trainers under that blanket, to state that there is no specific genetics that are needed to produce a great western pl horse, is just not true
I have taken some clinics by the likes of Dana Hokana, who empathizes correct movement, lift, self carriage, and keeping a pleasure horse honest and happy
All is done with using legs, seat and reins correctly, getting that lift, engagement, body softnses, with nothing more then a bit, legs and seat
Many of these horses, including mine, go on to western riding, and there is no way in heel, you can do cadenced flying changes, on a loose rein, on a horse that is on his front end, that does not have very fine tuned body control
Yup, bad examples remain out there, esp since western pl is a rail class, and not an individual class, with a scoring system, like reining , trail or western riding
Therefore, even in a class where non of those horses deserve to win, unless the judge wished to make a statement, and either gate the entire class, or start placing from third or so on down, you will have a winner
However, a great western pl horse trained correctly, is an exceptional athlete, same as top horse sin any other event


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## RZstoney98 (Jan 1, 2017)

tinyliny said:


> I think the OP was mainly asking if there was any detrimental results of the style of riding in WP, and in particular, the extreme style that might be a result of unnatural training techniques. are these detrimental to the hrose?
> 
> I'd like to know that, too. I don't ride WP, have never seen a real show, only a whole bunch of varying videos from prior online tussles on the subject, here. folks posted 'good' and 'bad' examples of the gaits, and I found ALL of them looked crazy ugly to me. but, , but, the question IS; is this detrimental to the horse, the physical and mental horse.
> 
> I'd like to know, too.


This is correct, thank you.


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## RZstoney98 (Jan 1, 2017)

Msail said:


> I think the point that every discipline has abuse is irrelevant to this discussion. Everybody's aware of it and nobody is denying it, but for the purposes of this particular discussion, we're focusing on abuse in western pleasure and what that might do to a horse. So it's just "beating a dead horse" to keep defending WP by saying well all disciplines do it. And I know that nobody here would ever defend animal abuse, but you get my meaning. We know it happens, but that doesn't make it okay, and bringing up the other disciplines doesn't help because that's not what this is about.
> 
> As for the arthritis, do you think it's because they are started too young and worked too hard? or is it just the nature of the work - unnaturally slow movement?


Thanks for redirecting the conversation.  I honestly think it's an issue because of being started too young and worked too hard


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## RZstoney98 (Jan 1, 2017)

Smilie said:


> There are videos that show desired movement, and other where hroses are showing everything that is wrong in the industry
> 
> To suggest that top western pl horses are trained using hock hobbles, tying head low, just shows zero knowledge as to how a good western pl horse is trained
> A well bred western pl horse has the natural ability to move slow legged, flat kneed, and training only refines that natural ability Trying to force a horse, that does not have those attributes, plus a natural level topline, results in what is seen that is 'bad', where more becomes better.
> ...


This was a wonderful answer, thank you!


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

A horses natural and correct movement will be seen when that horse is turned loose in an arena or pasture. low natural head carriage and slow moving are not the same as what has been done in the show rings.

Changing a horses natural way of movement Could be the cause for neck back knee and hock problems.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

SorrelHorse said:


> Two legitimate questions I have, Whatta.
> 
> 1) What does keyhole have anything to do with WP? Was it somehow connected at that show?
> 2) What horses in the WP industry have you witnessed that have been mentally wrecked by five, and what sort of training have you noticed starts a particular trend in that direction on young horses?
> ...




Nice videography and carefully crafted wording. Right up there with the best commercials out there that make absolutely anything become outstanding and desirable


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## Tori Taylor (Oct 9, 2015)

I guess my point about Western Pleasure is that they way you see most winning horses moving in the ring is radically different than the way they would move naturally at liberty. Yes I see the desire for a low, comfortable gait at both the trot and the lope but many at this point are moving unnaturally and with their heads artificially low. Let that same horse out in a paddock and watch it move and you will see the difference. 

Is it detrimental? Probably not on most horses but in the long run I think it is as more and more horses are bred downhill not with their neck tying in very low to their shoulders. So it has changed the way the horses are built over time as those that successfully moved in the slower, lower headset were bred to and form more therefore over time it ihas changed the overall look of the animals. 

How do they train them to do it? I have no idea I have seen many naturally move quite slowly and their overall confirmation is such that the lower headset is more natural to that horse as are the artificiality slowed down gaits. The problems likely occur when unscrupulous trainers try to get clients horses that are NOT naturally built that way to move that way. I am sure at that point artificial means are used and those may be not so desirable to many people.

Just my 2 cents worth


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## Cynical25 (Mar 7, 2013)

stevenson said:


> A horses natural and correct movement will be seen when that horse is turned loose in an arena or pasture. low natural head carriage and slow moving are not the same as what has been done in the show rings.
> 
> Changing a horses natural way of movement Could be the cause for neck back knee and hock problems.


Again, I must ask, WHAT neck, back, knee, hock problems? Where are all these crippled western pleasure horses I am always hearing about from people who are not in the WP industry? As one who has actually been in the industry, I just haven't seen this supposed epidemic.


If you looked into the pasture of well-bred WP horses, you would, in fact see them jogging and loping around with flat knees, driving hocks, and level toplines. It might not be as slow and perfectly collected as in the ring, and they may move out more exuberantly during play, but it's obviously the same gaits. Any quality show horse in any discipline must start with "the right stuff" and their training serves to finesse those natural talents. Have you ever seen a calf accidentally get into a pasture of cow bred horses? That calf will be sorry, lol. And to counter, I've never seen a pasture of Dressage horses randomly performing Passage or randomly cantering pirouettes - yet those "unnatural" gaits are not being called abuse here. Why is WP constantly being bashed?


I've groomed for, ridden with, and trained alongside big name trainers in WP and reining, on horses with price tags ranging $5-100+k. I've seen how top trainers train when no one is watching - the majority ARE fair and just to the horse. The horses are given impeccable care. They may get pushed (as any athlete does) but soundness and longevity is the goal.


Saying the bulk of the WP industry is abusive is no different than saying every person who rides Tennessee Walking Horses is as disgusting as Big Lick trainers. It is unfounded conjecture.


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

What the AQHA and their judges have done to Western Pleasure has caused a lot of us to move over to Ranch Horse and Western Dressage where a horse can move naturally and still win. I can't watch a WP class without getting sick. Part of that is seeing first hand the abuse that is inflicted to create the Wog (half walk/half jog) and the Trope (half trot/half lope). I watched 5 different WP "trainers" come in the stable where I boarded and ruin horse after horse. All eventually permanently lame, injected for every ride and then sold to some unsuspecting (usually out of state) buyer.


And, I blame the AQHA because they sanction the judges that set the "trends" and then the Paints and Appaloosa's follow their lead. They did re-write the rules finally but I still see the peanut rollers winning sadly. AQHA needs to act more seriously against the judges who don't judge by the new rules.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Chasin Ponies said:


> What the AQHA and their judges have done to Western Pleasure has caused a lot of us to move over to Ranch Horse and Western Dressage where a horse can move naturally and still win. I can't watch a WP class without getting sick. Part of that is seeing first hand the abuse that is inflicted to create the Wog (half walk/half jog) and the Trope (half trot/half lope). I watched 5 different WP "trainers" come in the stable where I boarded and ruin horse after horse. All eventually permanently lame, injected for every ride and then sold to some unsuspecting (usually out of state) buyer.
> 
> 
> And, I blame the AQHA because they sanction the judges that set the "trends" and then the Paints and Appaloosa's follow their lead. They did re-write the rules finally but I still see the peanut rollers winning sadly. AQHA needs to act more seriously against the judges who don't judge by the new rules.


Many people have moved to Ranch horse riding, , cutting etc, which is fine, as it allows you to ride without the expectations of today, in top competition venues of those disciplines, and with a more 'practical' application-that is fine, but don't knock top western pl horses , nor cutters for that matter, just because you do not like it.
Ride western dressage, which I find, another way to get past needing to really be able to ride a horse on a loose rein, western.
If you wish to ride dressage, then ride classical dressage, which I admire, done correctly
Dressage, allowing a western saddle, two hands in a curb-please!
I see horses winning western dressage, that can't be rated on a loose rein, but that is fine, as I don't show there.
Thus, if you wish to ride ranch horse pleasure, western dressage-do so!
Peanut rollers do not win today, under good judges, at top venues, and claiming that is just plain bashing
Perhaps, watch a series on western pl training, by people like Dana Hokana, 
and you might sound a bit more qualified to recognize with open informed eyes, some of the great western pl horses out there , versus trying to bash an entire discipline


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

To take some pressure off WP, Reining is flooded with Gunner babies. He was a fantastic stallion. He passes on his looks, disposition and butt in the dirt stop to a lot of his get. He also passes on his complete deafness. Is it ethical to pass on a high chance of deafness to get the other qualities this great horse had? 

That sounds like a serious indictment of people who bred to Gunner, but I simply mean it as an example of how these things take shape. If he wasn't deaf he would go down as probably one of the best sires ever of western performance horses. 

I could see a future where it is normal for Reining horses to be deaf. That would be a shame of course, and I sincerely hope that doesn't happen.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

jgnmoose said:


> To take some pressure off WP, Reining is flooded with Gunner babies. He was a fantastic stallion. He passes on his looks, disposition and butt in the dirt stop to a lot of his get. He also passes on his complete deafness. Is it ethical to pass on a high chance of deafness to get the other qualities this great horse had?
> 
> That sounds like a serious indictment of people who bred to Gunner, but I simply mean it as an example of how these things take shape. If he wasn't deaf he would go down as probably one of the best sires ever of western performance horses.
> 
> ...


What's worse is how people justify breeding deaf horses. It isn't hard to find, either. People will make up just about anything to keep doing something rewarding for themselves even though some part of them knows it's a crime. Just another reason I prefer the company of animals .....


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, now we are talking of breeding horses with a known color pattern , linked with some genetic defect, so should move it to the genetic section
L believe that deafness is related to a specific overo pattern- the Splash overo

From good old Wikipedia ;
'Some horses with the splashed white pattern have been shown to have congenital deafness, though many or most have normal hearing.[3][7][15] This type of deafness is probably similar to instances of deafness in white or piebald, blue-eyed examples in other species. In white-coated cats and dogs with deafness, an absence of melanocytes in the inner ear leads to death of the hair cells, which are necessary for perceiving sound.[15] The presence of pigment around the outside of the ears - which most splash horses have - does not prove the presence of that necessary pigment in the inner ear. There must be pigment inside the inner ear to prevent this problem.[1] Domestic horses often cope well with deafness, and deaf horses may go undiagnosed. Some deaf horses are more skittish than normal, while others are distinctly calmer. Deafness in horses can be diagnosed by brainstem auditory evoked potential (BAEP), which is minimally invasive and requires no sedation and minimal restraint.[15] While blue eyes and a white face are often associated with deafness in other species, apron-faced, non-splash horses are not known to be deaf. Nor is the presence of one blue, one normal eye indicative of unilateral deafness. The case horse in Hardland's 2006 case study had one blue eye, while the other was parti-colored, but the horse was bilaterally deaf.[15]'

Thus, not all splash overos are deaf, and I guess, you can look at it as either a detriment or an asset, depending on the horse, as it can act like permanent ear plugs!
The horse is still going to be scored on how he runs that pattern, and won't be able to use that reiner, 'whoa', but perhaps a plus, far as crowd noise-so do you consider it an unfair advantage, if the horse is working great?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Now that we are totally off subject, but I find that tangent, which I;m not even sure what relevance it has to this post, is quite interesting.
I thus tried to find out if deaf splash overo horses can produce normal hearing horses, and they can. Then, I tried to find out if genetic testing for deafness factor can be tested for, and apparently more than one gene is implicated
So, should all horses with white faces, blue eyes have deafness studies done, and color of inner ear hairs checked?
Anyway, interesting topic, if irrelevant!
Anyway, not saying that deaf horses should be bred, necessarily-just some info for thought!

Equine Genetic Deafness - Quarter Horse News


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

We are indeed out on a tangent . . . dogs have the same kind of inherited deafness, by the way -- it is not the white pattern per se, it is when there is no pigment in the inner ear. Because I have Australian Shepherds, a color breed of dogs about which a great deal is now known about possible color-associated inherited problems, I am maybe hyper alert to it in horses as well. It's also from the dog world that I bring all my prejudices against selecting for certain winning traits and ignoring the unwanted genes that came with them until it is too late to easily do anything about it.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Avna said:


> We are indeed out on a tangent . . . dogs have the same kind of inherited deafness, by the way -- it is not the white pattern per se, it is when there is no pigment in the inner ear. Because I have Australian Shepherds, a color breed of dogs about which a great deal is now known about possible color-associated inherited problems, I am maybe hyper alert to it in horses as well. It's also from the dog world that I bring all my prejudices against selecting for certain winning traits and ignoring the unwanted genes that came with them until it is too late to easily do anything about it.



I agree basically with your principles, far as genetic defects, but mode of inheritance has to be taken into account, between recessive and dominant
If an animal is just heterozygous for a dominant defect, like hypp , they should not be bred, as there is a 50/50 % chance of clinical disease
On the other hand, if a horse is heterogeneous for a reccessive defect, thus needing to be bred to another carrier, for a chance to produce an individual that is affected, and where that defect can be tested for, then it makes sense not to' throw the baby out with the bathtub', and test for carrier state before breeding
HERDA, GBED, CID , are just a few examples of the later
Horses are the same, far as lack of pigmentation in inner ear hair and deafness, and not all horses with ablaze face are deaf. I should know, having owned Appaloosas with bald faces and one blue eye
The gene (s) that produce deafness in ahrose have not been identified, and that is what creates a grey area for me, far as horses
Do we then discard all bald face hroses from the gene pool?

PS, we are way off topic, yet on a topic more fitting for the health forum!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Dominant traits are much easier to breed away from than the recessive ones, and simple (one gene locus) much easier than those of complex inheritance. But it ultimately comes down to why genetic problems are ignored, in this modern era when we know so much more about how genetics works. Same thing applies to modes of training which damage the horse (I am not accusing WP of this as a general practice). In my mind anyway, it is because humans have such a difficult if not impossible time looking beyond their little moment, their immediate concerns, their circle of friends and rivals, their tiny corner of the world. Not only do they not look at the bigger picture, they actively shut out and deny all information that might break in on their world and possibly alter it.

Western Pleasure is one of many examples of a sport which became almost unrecognizably different from its original intent -- showing off the premier pleasure riding qualities of the western horse -- bit by bit, because of this human inability. Breeding a line of deaf reining horses would be another example.. I could easily find many others. It's endemic to the human species. 

I am grateful that the majority, the large majority, of riders, are still looking for a good-minded, well-trained, easy-gaited horse to have fun with, and not some extreme exaggeration. To me, these are the people preserving the modern light horse. Those who have a passion for competition virtually always feel certain that they are the ones who matter, they are the ones who are striving to improve the breed, and the unambitious are lesser types who depend on them to produce better horses and better training. I used to feel that way too. Now I have a lot of doubt about it.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Darn it, my entire post disappeared twice in a row!1
I will thus try and be brief, but do wish to address your idea that western pl has deteriorated, versus , like any other discipline at upper end, gotten tougher
At one time, western pl was an entry level class, where all you needed was a broke horse, able to perform three gaits on a reasonably loos rein, while moving on more. Sure, this is more in tune as how you ride any horse out, but the showring does not translate always directly to just riding out, but shows increased level of difficulty and training
Any horse can perform athree beat lope while moving on. Not so, when that horse is asked to rate that lope, slower then he would just out at liberty, and why so many bad examples are out there.
At the same time,w hen all horses in any event can perform at a certain level, you have to raise the difficulity. Does not matter if you raise jumps for a jumper, set up a tighter trail course, or have greater expectations for that pl horse at upper end
That horse also knows when he is expected to move as he must, to be competitive, and when he just moves out as he normally would, same as any well trained horse knows when to move collected and when not
Quality of movement has also improved with selective breeding, with horses that re naturally flat kneed and deep hocked, who jog softly, versus pounding the ground, and who naturally sit back and pick up the lope, when other horses just trot faster and fall into it
If you do not wish to compete at that level, then there still are open shows and Ranch shows.
Look at reining stops from the past, to reining stops today, and you can see how all events have become tougher
I could take my reining mare, and win western pl at open shows, as she was broke. I would never show her at breed shows in pleasure
Similarily, I have shown my pleasure bred horses in reining at open shows and won, as they did flying changes, had good square stops, good circles, and could do slow correct spins
Did not mean they could win against reiners
I have also ridden many of our working bred horses, before I switched to pleasure bred horses, out on trails, and those working bred horses don't touch my pleasure horses on smoothness. I don't need a gaited horse, for my 'golden years riding, and those pleasure bred horses can move out with the best of them
It is such an incorrect idea, that horse that are pleasure bred and trained, and thus only move that way at all times-completely wrong!

People outside of western pl, just see a stylized way of going, that does not look 'natural' to them, and do not see either the degree of difficulty,training, nor recognize that this is showring expectations to separate horses when all are good at just performing western pl like in the past. It does not mean that is how ah=western pl horse moves at liberty, down a trail, or that somehow his conformation has suffered, becoming less athletic. Quite the contrary. It has become more specialized, with the raw ingredients that only need refining, bred into that horse
The very best western pl trainer, could not take the average working horse, and make him into a competitive pleasure horse, anymore then he could take a dressage bred sport horse and make him into a working cowhorse or cutter
All events have become more specialized.. See any horse at liberty, trotting in place? 
You can;t confuse showring expectations with 'natural', as sometimes the bar has to be raised to separate a field of all good horses form the great horses


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Charlie is pleasure bred
In the showring



On the trail, carrying her head where it needs to be







I assure you, she can keep up to your horse, and other trail horses just fine


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Smilie .. pretty horse, nice stride at the walk. That is not the headset i had been referring . 
I do not follow paint horse lineage, and that is interesting about the bald face dual blue eyed horses. i wonder how many of them have a lot of line breeding? inbreeding.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Well . . . there you have the rub. Are extremes in competition a _good _thing because the level of attainment needed to win is constantly increasing so the horses now have to be specially bred and then trained by specialized professionals to a high degree of finesse, or are they a _bad_ thing because, well, because of the same reasons?

In my experience, the people who are the most likely think it is a good thing are the trainers, breeders, judges, and competitors invested in that particular form of competition. 

Those who are not participants are free to have their own opinions and they often differ, often strongly. But if they pipe up with their own views and observations, the first group is invariably going to point out that those opinions are based in ignorance and hence have no value. 

This is why these kinds of threads more often than not don't seem to go anywhere very useful. 

JMO . . .


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Avna said:


> Well . . . there you have the rub. Are extremes in competition a _good _thing because the level of attainment needed to win is constantly increasing so the horses now have to be specially bred and then trained by specialized professionals to a high degree of finesse, or are they a _bad_ thing because, well, because of the same reasons?
> 
> In my experience, the people who are the most likely think it is a good thing are the trainers, breeders, judges, and competitors invested in that particular form of competition.
> 
> ...


While there are some gems of truth in your conclusions, it is also a fact that today horses are no longer tools needed for transport, war, working fields, ect, but are for the most part,'recreational'
Not everyone just wants to trail ride, just like everyone does not just wish to take part in non competition sports-that is why we have Olympic games, where events also have become tougher, just like in various horse competition excellence
Many of these top athletes in the equine field, are way better cared for, then some horse sitting out in a field, yet how many people worry about the numerous hroses, sitting in knee high grass, grazing like cows, never ridden?
I am sure they do not exist just in Alberta!]
What fuels the horse industry, promotes equine research ? The show and racing industry are the major players, that have fueled latest equine medical break through s, and not the recreational horse
It is fine if someone just wishes to recreational ride, but not so okay to then condemn the strive for excellence in various disciplines, by those who enjoy producing an equine athlete that is highly trained, competitive against his peers
And, yes, there is a reason judges have to earn cards, which them makes them more qualified to judge any event they are carded in, then the average Joe Public. Were it not so, then non carded judges would not be just used at lower entry level type schooling shows


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## Sherian (Aug 28, 2012)

this is a subject that can really start a trainwreck thread.
Personally I dislike how the pleasure horses travel, not so much the head/neck placement but the mechanics of their gaits. It is a function of their conformation as much as their training and beauty is on the eye of the beholder. The subjective show disciplines all have drifted away from their functional heritage in the pursuit of emphasizing one trait or another to standout in the ring. Some can switch back and forth between the "show" mode and the "functional" mode and some can't.
I don't think there is anymore "abusive" training in that discipline than in any other or even in recreational riders - I have seen some pretty nasty and/or ignorant stuff done by recreational riders.
Soundness wise it's pretty hard to make any conclusions - to compare soundness rates to other disciplines is comparing apples to qumquats - different breed types, different philosophies on when and how to start a horse are just as big of a factor as what the discipline asks the horse to do.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Avna said:


> Well . . . there you have the rub. Are extremes in competition a _good _thing because the level of attainment needed to win is constantly increasing so the horses now have to be specially bred and then trained by specialized professionals to a high degree of finesse, or are they a _bad_ thing because, well, because of the same reasons?
> 
> In my experience, the people who are the most likely think it is a good thing are the trainers, breeders, judges, and competitors invested in that particular form of competition.
> 
> ...


I think it just depends. 

Picking on Cutters, they've bred all the size out of them. The good ones want to eat a cow, but they are too small to do much with a rope. They make great turn back horses which is at least still useful for a "j-o-b" and other disciplines involving chasing cows if they flunk out of high dollar Cutter stuff. 

I think the other side of it is that people in these disciplines commonly don't do anything with them but Arena work for a specific purpose. We don't really know what the average [discipline here] horse can do, because all they do is their discipline. That horse might get well into their teens before someone just rides them for fun. 

The Mare I'm having trained up right now is with a trainer that takes a long time but the point is get the horse a lot of miles and exposure, not just the nice handle. 

I picked her because this horse will do a lot outside, be exposed to cattle by being used to sort, move and maybe some roping before she starts on focused Reining specific training. My intention with this horse is to do Ranch Versatility, Ranch Pleasure and possibly some EXCA type stuff so that is exactly what I wanted. 

The WP horses I've seen seem like normal horses when not being ridden. I think they probably could do a lot, if they were asked.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

It is very simple, if you don't like certain disciplines, and as long as no abuse is involved, then stay away from them, do your own thing, versus bashing
I don't happen to like gymkana, even though I have run games, and recognize there are horses that are run on light contact and body control, versus the 'jerk and spur' often seen
How many people watch gymkana, see horses needing to be led in , to run, as they assocaiytae running with pain, then run with two hands on a curb, bat and spurs used. Yup, they are moving what most people recognize as 'natural', so it must be beyond reproach


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Personally I'd pick WP over gymkhana any day of the week. But nobody asked me . . . (like that stops me).


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Just to clarify, I do not wish to get into defending one discipline, picking on another, but rather just used an example,as there is no discipline or even horse activity beyond reproach
It is the individual in each of those disciplines, that sets the bar, based on their own moral choice, as to when they enter the grey zone, where anything to win is justified
It is also by working from within, that true change occurs.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Avna said:


> Well . . . there you have the rub. Are extremes in competition a _good _thing because the level of attainment needed to win is constantly increasing so the horses now have to be specially bred and then trained by specialized professionals to a high degree of finesse, or are they a _bad_ thing because, well, because of the same reasons?


I happened across this article on a reining blog and it made me think of this thread. 
Reining horses hardly stand a chance - Reining Trainers

It used to be that I loved to compete and thought horse shows and dog shows were going to be a serious hobby for life. But I became so disillusioned by the selfishness of it all that was so detrimental to the animals. Although I've heard it argued that people spend money for vets and good nutrition for their show horses, the happiest and healthiest horses I've seen belong to people who value their animals as friends and think of them as feeling, living beings rather than as a way to make money or fulfill their goals and dreams. Some of these good horse people do compete, but they usually don't make it very high up the food chain because they pull horses out rather than drug them and lose money rather than win it at all costs. 

I don't need to be critical of what is done to horses by shouting about it publicly, but I have every right to be critical and judgmental on a personal and ethical level. Saying, "If you don't like what people do to animals, just close your eyes and don't show" is like saying we should pretend animals aren't poached for parts or tortured in 3rd world countries. I may personally not be able to change anything, but I can tell those within my own sphere that I disagree with it. 

It's every bit as revolting to see horses moving so disjointed they appear lame, or with hugely developed shoulder muscles from being trained to move unnaturally as it is to see the German Shepherd dogs at the shows creeping along on their super angulated hocks. What humans do to animals for money and prestige is disgusting. But I will never agree that hugely muscular horses standing on tiny little hooves are beautiful, or that dogs with skin folds covering their eyes so they can't see and snouts so short they can't breathe properly are adorable.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Smilie said:


> It is very simple, if you don't like certain disciplines, and as long as no abuse is involved, then stay away from them, do your own thing, versus bashing


This right here sums up how I feel. And I feel like this should be in all caps, underline, italicized, whatever it takes to get people to see it: * AS LONG AS NO ABUSE IS INVOLVED *. No one is saying to turn a blind eye and ignore abuse, but make sure you know what constitutes abuse before going off half cocked.


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## Sherian (Aug 28, 2012)

the reining article has no actual facts to back up their conclusion. I personally do not agree with starting 2 yr olds, but they are presenting a lot of suppositions as facts - there is no evidence ie x no of futurity horses are lame by x , x% of futurity horses are kept this way or x% of horses are showing on x drug. It is an opinion piece which is fine but I would like to see some supporting facts before getting out my tar and feathers.
This was an interesting study done on pleasure horses in 2010, would be interesting to see it repeated as a benchmark of how much change has actually occured in the pleasure class standards, and would be especially interesting if they included video of the horses used with their assesment by a judge to see how what the judge sees compares to the gait analysis. https://etd.auburn.edu/handle/10415/2421?show=full


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sherian said:


> the reining article has no actual facts to back up their conclusion. I personally do not agree with starting 2 yr olds, but they are presenting a lot of suppositions as facts - there is no evidence ie x no of futurity horses are lame by x , x% of futurity horses are kept this way or x% of horses are showing on x drug. It is an opinion piece which is fine but I would like to see some supporting facts before getting out my tar and feathers.
> This was an interesting study done on pleasure horses in 2010, would be interesting to see it repeated as a benchmark of how much change has actually occured in the pleasure class standards, and would be especially interesting if they included video of the horses used with their assesment by a judge to see how what the judge sees compares to the gait analysis. https://etd.auburn.edu/handle/10415/2421?show=full


Check the AQHA video which shows good movement, and also one on judging criteria, using leg raps to see the movement. They are posted in the last tedious thread on western pl,, so am not going to look it up again
Since I showed reiners ,and bred them,way before I ever started with all around/western pl horses, I am neither blind nor narrow minded, as to what is good and what is bad in either discipline
Anyone here can apply a microscope to every discipline out there, and find negatives, but I have found it counter productive long ago to go down that route, and western pl just seems like good open bashing grounds, as anyone can judge a rail class-right, esp if they have tried to show in that event, and were unsuccessful in such an 'easy' event.


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