# "Traditional Methods of Breaking"



## Sinister (Nov 28, 2011)

I was watching the Early Show's segment on Buck and agreed with most of it..besides the part where they said the "traditional method of breaking a horse" was to use ropes, whips, and fear, kind of..I guess upset me. Yes, there are still some people out there that want to be "cowboys" and break a horse that way. But most of us have "upgraded" to the easier and less fearful way, I wouldn't call it natural horsemanship. For one, because when I started my gelding last fall I wouldn't call myself a natural horseman because I don't really practice it. Granted I treat my horses with respect and don't use "the fear of God" to get them to do what I want but I don't do the exact things Buck, Clinton Anderson, Parelli or any of the other natural horsemen do. And I don't really fallow them. A lot of people look at people that don't do natural horsemanship as "bad guys" as well as with the ones that are truly the bad guys. What I'm getting at is, does anyone else think there's some sort of happy medium between natural horsemanship and the bad guys? Like the ones that don't do natural horsemanship but still treat their horses right.

Here's the CBS's video I watched:


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

A happy medium between Natural Horsemanship and traditional training? Well I don't follow any of the natural horsemanship names, but my horse understands me and he knows a lot.

I do think that training via fear without trying a more logical {for the horse} approach is not going to help the horse to LEARN. It'd just be scared to mess up and thus not be fully relaxed.

I'm curious to see how others answer

So I guess I'm a bad guy?


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## Sinister (Nov 28, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> A happy medium between Natural Horsemanship and traditional training? Well I don't follow any of the natural horsemanship names, but my horse understands me and he knows a lot.
> 
> I do think that training via fear without trying a more logical {for the horse} approach is not going to help the horse to LEARN. It'd just be scared to mess up and thus not be fully relaxed.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I hope a few natural horsemanship people reply and give their thought. Because I know a couple of natural horsemanship people that are so strict as to say anyone who doesn't fallow natural horsemanship is a bad horse owner. Not saying everyone is like that!!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Buck made a little dig on natural horsemanship during that interview. I think what he wanted to convey is that there is good horsemanship and poor horsemanship regardless of what other labels and marketing you apply to it. In the past when everyone had to use horses rather they wanted to or not many horses were trained and handled by people with no feeling for them or affinity for training. However, now the only people that handle and train horses for the most part are those that enjoy being around them. Many still have no affinity for training but they at least have a desire to do it. Not many people want to spend thier free time fighting with a horse like in the clip shown during the interview.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Well said Kevin. Good horsemanship is good horsemanship despite the label put on it. 

I try to fall somewhere in the middle, don't baby them and don't beat them. Read the horse, give & release, though there are occasions where a good crack on the butt is deserved  My goal is to practice common sense horsemanship.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

^^ I also want to add a consistence on top of what was said already. My trainer is a dressage trainer, and I've seen way more just a usual common sense in her approach then some NH trainers I've met. So yes, it's all about good horsemanship, knowledge, and experience, not about fancy name.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

I have been doing natural horsemanship for 40 years, but take my word for it...the modern day commercial "natural horsemanship" is in reality nothing like the real thing. As with most things it has been taken to such wacko extremes it bears little resemblance to the original.

As far as "breaking", I have "broken" about 120 horses that I have bred and raised. Breaking for me is a matter of tacking up, getting on the horse, and riding...never had a horse I raised buck.

"Cowboying" horses when you break them came from the old days when feral/wild horses were caught as adults and broken in a hurry - usually for sale to the government or to put right to work. Somewhere along the line, weekend yahoos seemed to think that was the way all horses should be broken...


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## ConfusciusWasAGreatTeachr (Oct 29, 2011)

'Common sense horsemanship' - now there's another name to add to the market! lol

Like MHF said - The horse is the best teacher of them all. Pressure and release - the horse's language is the 'method' you should use. Not human language, force or fear.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Sinister said:


> Because I know a couple of natural horsemanship people that are so strict as to say anyone who doesn't fallow natural horsemanship is a bad horse owner.


Let me ask you a serious question: who cares what those people you refer to think?

At some point in life most people, if they are smart, come to the realization that the number of people who's opinion matters to them is rather small.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

I also think that it tends to depend on the horse as far as exactly what you should do when training it. There is no 'perfect' or even 'right' was to train a horse because they're all different. You have the stubborn ones who challenge your every move which will most likely require a thwacking or two when they deserve it, then you have the timid ones who's confidence you'll shatter if you move too hardly with them. And then you have the high energy colt or slightly dumb gelding, or that crazy pony who thinks he's in charge. You just have to know horses well enough to understand what is going to work for them.

Sour was never technically abused, but she was all but ruined when I got to her. A man was going to train her to do some tricks and be good for little kids when he started working with her, but he needed to do it fast- so he chose to rope her and lay her out on the ground as a form of dominance training. 

His method was to get all of her spirit out and go from their with a submissive, quite little horse. Completely screwed her up. When I started working with her she didn't think twice about lunging at you with bared teeth or trying to kick you to death if you so much as touched her. She was probably the closest thing I've seen to an agressive horse in my life, because she refused to give in that quickly when she didn't know what the heck everyone wanted from her. She hated people and ropes not because she had actually been hurt by them, but because she didn't understand.

I started her from scratch, and although it took longer than it's taken me with the rest of the horses- I have her working perfectly now. She's almost four and no longer tries to attack people (we just recently conquered having men handle her) and she doesn't act up very often because she knows what's expected of her. I'm not afraid to give her a good smack when she deserves it but I also think that lunging for respect and some such things can be a good idea if used correctly.

I dunno. I guess everyone has their own 'brand' of training, no ones is going to be the same. You just have to choose which you think will suit your style and your needs. If it works, then its good with me!


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

ConfusciusWasAGreatTeachr said:


> 'Common sense horsemanship' - now there's another name to add to the market! lol


Now if you release a dvd with that title, I'll be expecting a royalty check :lol:


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> Buck made a little dig on natural horsemanship during that interview. I think what he wanted to convey is that there is good horsemanship and poor horsemanship regardless of what other labels and marketing you apply to it. In the past when everyone had to use horses rather they wanted to or not many horses were trained and handled by people with no feeling for them or affinity for training. However, now the only people that handle and train horses for the most part are those that enjoy being around them. Many still have no affinity for training but they at least have a desire to do it. Not many people want to spend thier free time fighting with a horse like in the clip shown during the interview.


Well said.

My grandpap was my horse mentor - taught me how trim, had me breaking his horses to ride and drive when I was 12.

His very first Horse Breaking Rule of Thumb: "treat that horse the way you want to be treated; if you don't you're going to the woodshed."

Grandpap kept a stallion - a stallion who was such a gentleman that, when I was 12, I could ride him two miles to the corner store on Sunday morning for the milk my grandmother didn't need.

Grandpap had a kind way of handling his horses. He had expectations and they did get disciplined but, never did I see him put the fear of death into them.

Where my dad was concerned - well we farmed with horses until I was four. Dad did not get the "I love horses" gene and was gruff with the team. Not abusive but gruff because they were an "evil necessity" until he saved enough money to buy a tractor. <---Pretty much what Kevin said.

I don't like that the word "natural" has managed to put a black eye on "traditional" training methods ; especially after I saw Parelli give his own horse a jerkin' it didn't deserve when he was working the horse in a small arena behind where the show was going on.

I was 12 back in 1959; point being GOOD horsemanship has always been around. Bad horsemanship has always been around.

What attracts the most noise and news? Bad things. Bad things get TV ratings and sell newspapers.

The only reason Modern Day "Natural" horsemanship gets a lot of hype is because the purveyors of it spend a ton of money on advertising and gimmicks that infer even the most novice of horse owners can become an expert in one or two lessons.

I've been working with horses 52 of my 64 years; only been without horses for one year of that time. I am still learning, I will never know it all and I don't profess to.

Vets, farriers, and other longtime horsemen compliment all my horses on their good manners and gentle dispositions. They are a reflection of the great foundation my grandpap gave me and that I have built on thru the years.

It was good horsemanship when the word "natural-and-I-can-money-off-this" wasn't even a thought in someone's brain cells.


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## Sinister (Nov 28, 2011)

mildot said:


> Let me ask you a serious question: who cares what those people you refer to think?
> 
> At some point in life most people, if they are smart, come to the realization that the number of people who's opinion matters to them is rather small.


I don't care what they think, but I didn't want to offend any body by saying "all the natural horsemanship people, especially Parelli followers, are psycho!" See where I'm coming from? Because a lot of people practice Parelli around here over any other NH trainer and they all seem to think if you don't you're a bad person and should be shunned. And will stand there for hours on end trying to "convert you".


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Sinister said:


> And will stand there for hours on end trying to "convert you".


Oh yes... I've seen it. I was at my old barn, standing with my horse while he ate some grass. This big ol guy (over 6'5") comes over preaching about Parelli. I just nod and smile and listen.

Next time he sees me riding my horse. He comes over bareback and bitless on his horse with a carrot stick in one hand, lead in the other and then we get to talking about training again.. and I say "Yeah I'm just trying to find a riding instructor" And he goes on about how he's trained his 5 horses (or 6?) the Parelli way and oh he's got this carrot stick for me and oh by the way "you are definitely in need of lessons too, you've got a chair seat, you're slumping, and you've got a bit!" Uhh... I was in an Australian (aussie) saddle at the time, I was standing still at a halt with my horse, and I ride with a bit. Shoot me for relaxing and riding how the saddle was meant to be ridden in! 

Do I dislike Parelli? No I just don't mind it. People are a different story though.


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## Sinister (Nov 28, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Oh yes... I've seen it. I was at my old barn, standing with my horse while he ate some grass. This big ol guy (over 6'5") comes over preaching about Parelli. I just nod and smile and listen.
> 
> Next time he sees me riding my horse. He comes over bareback and bitless on his horse with a carrot stick in one hand, lead in the other and then we get to talking about training again.. and I say "Yeah I'm just trying to find a riding instructor" And he goes on about how he's trained his 5 horses (or 6?) the Parelli way and oh he's got this carrot stick for me and oh by the way "you are definitely in need of lessons too, you've got a chair seat, you're slumping, and you've got a bit!" Uhh... I was in an Australian (aussie) saddle at the time, I was standing still at a halt with my horse, and I ride with a bit. Shoot me for relaxing and riding how the saddle was meant to be ridden in!
> 
> Do I dislike Parelli? No I just don't mind it. People are a different story though.


I hate when people do that, it's like "I can't sit here and talk and let my horse and me relax for a bit?" Haha. I have a hard time with people too.

I was at a tack auction helping my friend sell some of her stuff and this women came over and picked up one of my friend's _grandmothers_ like EXTREMELY old long shanked harsh looking Arabian saddle seat bits and started right in on both of us saying we were terrible for even owning it. But it had obviously not been used in years, there wasn't a part on the bit that wasn't rusted. My friend was selling as a decoration for someone to put in their tack room or something cause some people like the old tack stuff to hang up. LOL We must have stood there for at least an hour and a half and then she and her friend did a demonstration of lunging..it was interesting. :rofl:


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Sinister said:


> then she and her friend did a demonstration of lunging..it was interesting. :rofl:


LOL wow! That's great lol. People assume way too easily and then they wonder why people don't ask them about stuff lol.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Sinister said:


> I don't care what they think, but I didn't want to offend any body by saying "all the natural horsemanship people, especially Parelli followers, are psycho!" See where I'm coming from? Because a lot of people practice Parelli around here over any other NH trainer and they all seem to think if you don't you're a bad person and should be shunned. And will stand there for hours on end trying to "convert you".


Being outnumbered is a tough position to be in. There's no easy answer if these folks are your only choice for riding and/or barn companions.

If you board at the same barn with these folks, I might think about looking for another barn, if that's possible.

I am not nearly tactful enough to be of any help in getting them to shutup. I can only tolerate having so much "stuff" rammed down my throat before I blow up verbally and sometimes physically in someone's face - lol lol lol

In my youth, I have "gone off like an M-80" even when I knew someone was right and I was wrong, simply because they were like a dog with a new beef bone and just kept rattling on and on and on, ad naseum - lollol

I waited a month before I re-directed my IRA because Mr. WTW nagged me so much. I knew I needed to make some changes and I would have, if he'd've JUST SHUT UP for five minutes:lol::lol:<---that kind of stuff is called "cutting your nose to spite your face" but that's how strongly I hate nagging in any form - lollollol

If you have to live your horse life amongst these folks, I hope you can find some way to get them off your back that doesn't involve you needing a bail bondsman


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## Sinister (Nov 28, 2011)

walkinthewalk said:


> Being outnumbered is a tough position to be in. There's no easy answer if these folks are your only choice for riding and/or barn companions.
> 
> If you board at the same barn with these folks, I might think about looking for another barn, if that's possible.
> 
> ...


Haha, no I have all my horses at home! I only see most of these people at shows/tack shop/auctions and when I decided to take a visit to my instructor. Trust me if I had to see them daily..or weekly :wink:.. I don't think I could handle their nagging. LOL


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