# What is the difference between English & Hunt Seat?



## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

My son and and I both ride English, or maybe it's hunt seat. We are both still too new to English (or hunt seat?? LOL) riding to know. We ride in all-purpose saddles at our lesson barn. He is learning to jump. I don't really see a show in our future, so maybe it doesn't matter, but when I talk about what we do I'd like to use the right words!


----------



## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I understand the confusion. They are often used interchangeably. 

The simplistic answer is that an "English" style saddle with knee rolls is considered "hunt seat." 

Dressage is also considered english.

Polo saddles are considered english.

I've heard saddle seat saddles referred to as being english.

Most people starting out riding and taking english style lessons, ride in some sort of all-purpose saddle that is suited to jumping/hunt seat. You will likely run into someone who insists on a strict interpretation of terms. Be cheerful with those poor uptight folks and continue to enjoy riding.


----------



## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

boots said:


> I understand the confusion. They are often used interchangeably.
> 
> The simplistic answer is that an "English" style saddle with knee rolls is considered "hunt seat."
> 
> ...


Thanks! So pretty much anything non-western is English then? I guess we ride hunt seat since our saddles have a knee rolll!


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

boots said:


> The simplistic answer is that an "English" style saddle with knee rolls is considered "hunt seat."


Never heard that one!



boots said:


> You will likely run into someone who insists on a strict interpretation of terms. Be cheerful with those poor uptight folks and continue to enjoy riding.


Good advice!

I am a simple bod, I only divide into English and Western...and try and ignore Aussie saddles, because I don't know where to class them:wink:

I realize that I would not have the first clue how to define 'hunt seat'


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This illustration comes from a Jane Savoie book










I would describe them as "Center balanced" / "Forward balanced" / "Defensive" / "Wrong". For #1, read Jane Savoie - $0.17 plus shipping from Amazon! For #2, read VS Littauer. For #3...well, no one writes about it but I've done it on a horse who is likely to stop without warning. #4 is something I've done unintentionally, usually if I should have been doing #3 and wasn't, and my horse stopped without consulting with me first.

"Hunt Seat Equitation" by George Morris or "Common Sense Horsemanship" by VS Littauer or "Riding and Schooling Horses" by Harry Chamberlin are good books if you are learning to ride like #2. 

I'll admit to having done all 4 positions in English saddles, Australian-style saddles, and western saddles. I'm now pretty firmly in the western camp, although I'm eccentric enough that it may not matter. As VS Littauer emphasizes, riding is about balance in motion, not position. Good luck, and have fun riding!


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

To really muddy the waters
The true English (as in British) Hunt seat if you wanted to go back to traditional history was nothing like the Hunt seat in the US
You'll still see it in the hunting field and many top UK show ring riders in hunting classes ride with a more forward lower leg


----------



## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

And then we can throw in eventing saddles, and exercise saddles, and english vs western sidesaddles.


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Don't forget English vs Western Dressage saddles.

Do Western Dressage saddles have knee rolls?


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

LOL! I never heard of "English" as referred to saddleseat until I got into Arabs. And the Arab style of Hunt Seat just boggled my mind to the point I refused to ride what they called Hunter Pleasure because it was NOTHING like the more traditional Hunter Pleasure I had grown up riding. I spent all afternoon at the Scottsdale show waiting for the hunt seat classes and finally asked someone when they were going to have them, only to find out I had just watched them.:rofl:

I had seen a saddleseat rider or 2 in some of the shows I grew up in but they were few and far between. My trainer then, in answer to my, "What in the world?" question, said, "Those are the Arabians. Don't worry about them, they don't do anything even remotely like the rest of us.". I had no idea how true that was. And then as I got involved with Arabians and got to know a little more about saddleseat I learned that they had Country English Pleasure (horse trots higher than a hunter but not a lot), English Pleasure (horse trots at least level in the knees) and Park (which is where they REALLY trot high and fast, pretty much seem barely under control). Whole thing boggled my poor brain and I decided it wasn't for me. 

So now I'm with BSMS, I am firmly Western and loving it.


----------



## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

*Jan1975* - Step away from this thread! 

lol It's no wonder it's confusing, eh?


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

anndankev said:


> Don't forget English vs Western Dressage saddles.
> 
> Do Western Dressage saddles have knee rolls?



Mine doesn't, but then I do WD in my trail saddle...


----------



## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

boots said:


> *Jan1975* - Step away from this thread!
> 
> lol It's no wonder it's confusing, eh?


Yeah now I'm even more confused! LOL!! But at least I don't feel bad for being confused as it IS very confusing!


----------



## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I spent all afternoon at the Scottsdale show waiting for the hunt seat classes and finally asked someone when they were going to have them, only to find out I had just watched them.:rofl:


:rofl:


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

So imagine how confused DH & I were when we reached the end of a show that was described as 'Hunt Seat' classes and we were still waiting to see some Hunters (as in British hunting type horses)!!!


----------



## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

:rofl:

When I saw this thread I thought 'this will be interesting, to see how it is described, particularly from the UK contributors' !! Turns out it is probably even more confusing lol!!

I had to think how I actually see it, you know how you get an idea in your mind and it just stays there till you dust it off and examine it and my belief has been there so long I couldn't even find the origins!

I suppose I see 'hunt seat' as a little bit interchangeable with 'jumping seat' and 'forward seat', but perhaps more specifically for the hunting field and/or (what we call) round-the-ring jumping. When jumping or riding fast you use the forward (jumping or hunt) seat and hold that position as it the second diagram bsms shows us.

I understand round-the-ring was designed more for hunters during summer months where the jumps are consecutive around the arena so that it more resembles a hunt field rather than a showjumping arena where there is a designed woven path.

Just a line or 3 on the forward leg. I was watching a rider event (english classes) with one of my early trainers and her father (then in his 80's). As the first three places were called she commented that second place should have been placed first as the winners leg was 'too far forward'. Her father replied 'she looks marvellous, she has to put her legs somewhere'. So the point being it was more fashionable earlier this century to sit on a horse and your legs rested in what can feel like a 'natural' position whereas today(and even then, which was early '70s) it is studied considerably more and is more 'balanced' to have your legs under your weight.

Trainers dad's style was 1940's. My own grandfather was a rabbiter for a time in Otago and the couple of photos I have of him on 'Major' is of this style.

sorry, rabbiting on a bit now (oh, no) lol...

:loveshower:


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Technically, riding "English" which is NOT what the Europeans call it, is to ride a flat saddle with stirrup "irons", instead of wooden stirrups, and mostly, you direct rein. That's about it.
When you jump a horse it becomes more difficult to readjust your seat on the takeoff and landing in a flat "English" saddle, very much like a Dressage Saddle, or perhaps, like a cutback Plantation saddle, so saddler's have added padding where your knee hits the front, below the pommel, sometimes called "knee rolls." Even THOSE get in the way of international show jumpers and they ride a somewhat built up, but mostly flat at the "kneerolls" saddle, often referred to as a close contact saddle.
So, you see a LOT has to do with your discipline.
Personally, I would rather see people start riding lessons in "English" than in "Western". Only well made and usually expensive Western saddles create a balance seat. Most of them teach people to ride in a chair seat and it's Very hard to train that out of your riding.
It's difficult to NOT balance in any English saddle, so that creates better riding habits right off of the bat.
Often, people (like me) start their riding lessons Wanting to jump, so a great many people ride Hunt Seat.
I hope that I have answered your question. =D


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_Only well made and usually expensive Western saddles create a balance seat_."

No. Not even close. I've yet to try a western saddle that puts me in a chair seat. If a western rider wants to have their feet somewhat in front, there can be reasons for it. I often do it - by choice. And heels under hip is NOT a rule of equitation, except for dressage.

Stirrups under center of gravity helps much of the time, but stirrups ahead of center of gravity is a decent defensive position for some types of horses. Some very experienced western riders, like Larry Trocha, teach it as the norm - and for a reason, such as cutting.

And it has been done for centuries.

A 1655 Rembrandt:










An 1829 painting done by an experienced hunter:










The forward seat many, many years before Caprilli "invented" it. It didn't start in Italy...


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

The way I think about it:

"English" is a very broad term which encompasses a large variety of riding methods from gaited showing to fox hunting, but have in common a light saddle which, knee rolls or no, is relatively flat and small, and riding two-handed. There are no cows involved in any English riding. English styles developed from traditions in Great Britain and Northern Europe. 

"Western" is also a broad category but developed from Southern Europe especially Spain, through Mexico and the southwestern US. It is at heart about moving and controlling cows, and doing things that are associated with or mimicking moving cows such as riding in rough terrain or showing the flexibility of your horse at speed (reining and rodeo events). They are typically heavy with built up cantle and pommel to help you stay on board, and are often double rigged to keep your saddle on when a cow hits the end of your rope. One handed riding is the norm since you theoretically need the other hand for your cow stuff.

Aussie saddles are cowboy saddles developed out of British, not Spanish, saddles. A case of covergent evolution. Since there is no roping tradition in Australia the saddles don't have horns and are lighter than western (but heavier than english).

Endurance racing saddles have become inventive hybrids of all of the above plus cavalry saddles. They are great for ordinary trail riding too. My own trail saddle is a modified dressage saddle. 

Saddles keep changing as techniques and disciplines flower and fade. It's cool how many options there are these days.


----------



## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

bsms

Yes and no. 'heels under hip is NOT a rule of equitation'. It is required in dressage and showing. People with better understanding than me decided that a rider that is in line through the body (diagram 1 in that image) has better balance, therefore is able to get better balance from the horse. Also with the legs forward the weight is further back on the horse and when jumping you can't properly get into the forward seat for jumping and your weight can come down on the horses back causing him to drop his hind legs and drop the rail.

Way back in the day I may have been bit of a snob and looked down on someone who didn't ride 'pony club style' (ok, I know I did) but these days I don't put so much importance on that unless competing (and with having many years out of riding my riding style is rather sloppy, will need some polish if I get to compete again!!!)


----------



## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Avna said:


> The way I think about it:
> 
> "English" is a very broad term which encompasses a large variety of riding methods from gaited showing to fox hunting, but have in common a light saddle which, knee rolls or no, is relatively flat and small, and riding two-handed. There are no cows involved in any English riding. English styles developed from traditions in Great Britain and Northern Europe.
> 
> ...



:thumbsup: Sorry, my 'like' button has vanished again


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"People with better understanding than me decided that a rider that is in line through the body (diagram 1 in that image) has better balance..."

Except it does not. It only has better balance for a collected gait, which is a rather slow way to move across the ground.

There are roughly two categories of balance. One can either teach the horse to shift it's center of gravity back, to place it under the rider, or the rider can shift his center of gravity forward to place it over the horse's. Either one works, depending on what you want out of the horse.

The feet forward style of western riding put a greater emphasis on safety, since riders were often riding green horses hundreds of miles from help. Even today, I know of ranchers who regularly ride 75 miles from any paved roads, and further from any medical help, with no cell phone coverage.

And the western saddle tree extends further to the rear, allowing it to distribute weight when ridden that way.

None of them is wrong. One merely needs to decide what is important to you as a rider and what your goals are, and then use the style that matches.

"Also with the legs forward the weight is further back on the horse and when jumping you can't properly get into the forward seat for jumping..."

This is how the US Cavalry's chief riding instructor and Olympic gold medalist and team captain taught a forward seat:








​ 
Feet are well forward of the hip. In fact, he looks a lot like the Rembrandt painting done 300 years earlier! Even a two time Olympic Gold medalist in DRESSAGE did that:








​ 
As for the style of the old hunters...the seat didn't harm the horses much, but their abuse of the bit limited them. It also had to do with the obstacles they jumped and the type of horse - or so I've read. It was a different scenario from the show jumping done today, and with different tack.


----------



## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Now "boots" is running from this thread! All the technicalities are making me think I should sell my poor horse and wonder how have I ever managed to stay on all these years!

This is me, realizing I know nothing.









That was actually when I found out a buddy wanted to use my mare "Fluffy," who was in heat, to lure in a Belgian stallion that was not wanting to come in off pasture. A whole 'nother story.


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I have yet to ride only one western saddle that DOESN'T put me in a chair seat. Most Americans trail ride the first time they ever ride a horse and they do it in a western saddle. The cheap western saddles that trail rigs use DO put you in a chair seat. Non riders who rent a horse once in awhile think that you hold onto the horn, balance on the horse's mouth and then hope that they won't lose their balance. If this is how you learned to ride, then Yes, you rode a cheap western saddle that taught you how to sit with your feet too far forward.
I would probably kill for a Circle Y, but I have another saddle on my wish list ahead of it, and another roof (garage) to replace next year. Good western saddles are terrific.

This thread has been hijacked. There is nothing wrong with riding a western saddle! BUT, if you cannot change to somebody else's saddle on YOUR HORSE and stay on and stay balanced, you have NOT developed your seat.
I rode western saddles when I rented horses and before I took HS/Jumping lessons. After I bought my herd in 1985 I spent hours and hours schooling and got REALLY fit, which I attribute to riding "English" and I have always preferred an English all purpose saddle to a Western saddle any day of the week.
But, again, I'd like it if Julie Goodnight would give me one of HER western saddles, because she rides balanced in it.
Btw, I am very familiar with the US Cavalry Manual, and have been a member of the US Cavalry Association, which housed memorabilia in Fort Riley, Kansas. DH and I studied the close order drill and implemented it in our hobby. There were other suggestions, such as using two cavalrymen to saddle up one horse, one soldier on each side to lift it behind it's final position in order to attach the crupper, then another to lift it forward into position and to hook up the breastplate, military girth, which buckles, and the surcingle. The manuel also suggests that you not split your horse's girth in two by strong arming while tightening, and we learned to tighten up 3x and mostly, by the time we were done an afternoon of riding, you could put your fist in between the girth and the side of your horse.
The US Cavalry, between WWI and WWII drilled and did horse shows, which included jumping mules, x country (like the European x county and both led to 3 day eventing), and Roman riding. They were attempting to create a super horse, one that could do everything, and then were disbanded the year after we entered WWII (1942) because the tank covered territory better and the paratrooper and sniper were better advanced troops. Still, mules were sent to the jungles of Vietnam.
End MY hijack of this thread.


----------



## Fantelle (Oct 26, 2015)

Dressage










Hunt


----------



## klstarrs (Dec 8, 2015)

bsms said:


> This illustration comes from a Jane Savoie book
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This first two pictures are correct riding positions for 'English' riding...
the first one is 3 point tradional seat for dressage and flatwork, the second is jumping, HUNTING and racing.

3 point is very upright, used for containing impulsion and working a horse from it's back end ( slow collected paces), 2 point is forward from above the hips so you are more balanced over the horses shoulders and giving the horse more freedom to stretch out (jumping, hunting), you also have a very light seat (in racing, you have full weight on stirrups, none on saddle 'seat').

Stirrups are shorter for 2 point than standard 3 point position.


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

This doesn't necessarily answer the OP's question, but it might help give a visual understanding as to how different seats are used in one style of one discipline in English riding. The riders in the video ride English in the "American Forward Seat System" which is a style of riding also known as the Hunt(er) Seat Style and as the Jump(ing) Seat Style. These are not Dressage riders. Dressage is another English riding discipline that has a different style of riding. There is some crossover in the two disciplines such as the basics of the position and the basic schooling of the horse, but at the advanced levels, the training is specialized. 

In this video, Bernie Traurig explains the different seats necessary at times even in the same course. Bernie used to say "Half Seat" and "2 point" interchangeably but has since decided to say 2 point only to avoid confusion. He also calls the half seat the galloping position and the forward position. A "light seat" is a variation of a "2 point". "Full Seat" and "3 point" are the same thing. The "Driving Seat" is not a chair seat. 

The video is 9 minutes.

To Sit or Not to Sit on Course? - Horse Collaborative


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

That is a great video...and I say that as someone who does not jump, and who uses a western saddle. I've noticed with Bandit that the "driving seat" is an excellent approach to use when he's feeling uncertain or a little spooky, but not totally afraid. A driving seat works better than trying to urge him using leg. He accepts urging from the seat better than from the leg.

If I decide to keep him moving forward by asking for a trot, he uses his nervous trot - which is choppy. So a light seat keeps things stable without making me bounce. It also keeps me deep enough to handle a spin, but also handles hops forward or to the side as well - which he might do when he is nervous.

And a half seat has worked well to encourage him to use his back since his previous owner was probably 220 lbs in his socks and Bandit is an 800 lb horse. Being 60 lbs lighter than his previous owner has helped, and getting his hooves in proper shape has been critical...but a half seat encourages him to relax and not worry about his back.

This is where looking outside of one's preferred discipline can help. Just because I don't jump is no reason why I cannot learn and apply lessons from those who do.


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

bsms - I'm sorry if you misunderstood in the video, but the "driving seat" combines leg and seat. Both riders in the video that demonstrated a driving seat increased their leg pressure when they shifted their seat and in both cases used their spur generously. This does not mean that spur is always necessary when using a driving seat, but leg is. You can see in the picture below that Rodrigo Pessoa does have his leg on his horse, as do all of the riders in the various seats. If I've misunderstood what you posted about using only your seat, apologies.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"Bsms - I'm sorry if you misunderstood in the video, but the "driving seat" combines leg and seat."

Yes, I know. But at least when I do it, the difference is its a firm, squeezing leg and driving seat, versus pressuring him via heels or leg alone - since I don't wear spurs. I've met western riders who use a driving seat, but I've also known a number who automatically resort to a pop in the gut with heels. And yes, I'm not above popping a horse in the gut at times, but I figure a rider's bag of tricks can never be too big or too full. There are times a deep seat and even leaning back a bit can give one options that differ a bit from a "balanced seat". At least when I do it, I need to weigh heavier in the seat than normal, since most of the time a lot of my weight (most?) is carried by my thighs.

Now, am I doing it the "proper way"? Beats me, but my horse responds well, which is proper enough for me. No one is ever looking at me, so what my horse understands and accepts is the only standard I need to worry about. Which may be why I figure I can learn from dressage riders, jumpers, barrel racers and cutters without doing any of those pursuits...


----------



## leahandtucker (Nov 8, 2015)

Google it or ask your instructor this feed is to confusing and its hard to express what the difference is

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------

