# Mutton withers or hollow withers?



## IndianHorseWhisperer (Oct 19, 2012)

I am at a complete loss here and need some 2nd opinions. I am in the middle of training a half blind gaited mare and a chestnut half arabian gelding. The saddles we have do not fit them and i think it is due to their withers. But i cant seem to tell if they have Mutton or Hollow withers. Help here please?


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## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

Their withers look fine to me.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Neither horse has mutton OR hollow withers. Withers look fine.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Maybe they have abnormally narrow backs?


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I cannot tell on the first horse but the second horse looks like it has very wide shoulders that are very hard to fit.

Horses with shoulders like the second horse oftentimes have a saddle rest right behind their shoulders and literally 'dig' into them. This is not what I call a 'good saddle-back' and really can be difficult to fit. When I have had to ride one, I usually just put on a wide saddle (full Quarter Horse Bars) and used a really big, thick wool felt pad. That, of course , is with a stock saddle.


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## IndianHorseWhisperer (Oct 19, 2012)

Cherie said:


> I cannot tell on the first horse but the second horse looks like it has very wide shoulders that are very hard to fit.
> 
> Horses with shoulders like the second horse oftentimes have a saddle rest right behind their shoulders and literally 'dig' into them. This is not what I call a 'good saddle-back' and really can be difficult to fit. When I have had to ride one, I usually just put on a wide saddle (full Quarter Horse Bars) and used a really big, thick wool felt pad. That, of course , is with a stock saddle.


I tried putting on saddles with full Quarter bars and no luck. Beau (2nd horse) is actually pretty narrow and LB (1st horse) has very wide withers. If neither has anything wrong with the withers then thats somethin i can check off. I saw some pics of some horses with Mutton Withers and looked identical to Beau and read that Hollow Withers are common on gaited horses so wasn't entirely sure for LB


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Well, the first thing is that if their withers are so completely different, then you'll likely need 2 saddles because a saddle that fits one well probably won't fit the other very well at all.

Beyond that, it's hard to really tell much just by those pictures. Can you get some that are closer and from several different angles showing their withers/back?


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

With the second horse the bars need a flatter angle but you also need to find a saddle with a deep gullet, like many of the barrel racing saddles. Google horsesaddleshop and download their free template. Full instructions included. The templates are the three most common size trees. Print, cut out and transfer to cardboard and see if one of them will fit the horse. If one will, then the other half of the template will be for the saddle.


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## IndianHorseWhisperer (Oct 19, 2012)

I was told that Circle Y and Dakota saddles generally fit Arabian crosses really well but i have cheap generic trail saddles that up until now fit my past equine clientele.


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## IndianHorseWhisperer (Oct 19, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> With the second horse the bars need a flatter angle but you also need to find a saddle with a deep gullet, like many of the barrel racing saddles. Google horsesaddleshop and download their free template. Full instructions included. The templates are the three most common size trees. Print, cut out and transfer to cardboard and see if one of them will fit the horse. If one will, then the other half of the template will be for the saddle.


Thanks i'll definetly look into that!


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## IndianHorseWhisperer (Oct 19, 2012)

smrobs said:


> Well, the first thing is that if their withers are so completely different, then you'll likely need 2 saddles because a saddle that fits one well probably won't fit the other very well at all.
> 
> Beyond that, it's hard to really tell much just by those pictures. Can you get some that are closer and from several different angles showing their withers/back?


Here is one of LB probably not a good one. I'll be going out there tomorrow and take more pictures of them for you to see.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

IndianHorseWhisperer said:


> I was told that Circle Y and Dakota saddles generally fit Arabian crosses really well but i have cheap generic trail saddles that up until now fit my past equine clientele.


Actually your saddles on your previous equine clientele didn't fit at all. And towels are not saddle pads either ;-) From the looks of your facebook page you need a serious update and revamp on your tack, especially if you want to be a professional trainer. You can not properly train horses in ill fitting tack. It is nice to see though that you put Little Bit in a bareback pad. Much better choice. 

The cheap generic saddles don't fit horses. They are built like crud and pinch in all the wrong spots. There is a reason they are cheap.

My suggestion would be to get some quality used saddles. You can get a nice quality used saddle in the same price range as the new generic saddles.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

OP, if you cannot afford a quality saddle, is it possible to loan one from the horses' owners? If they have saddles that already fit their horses that will really help. That means you can continue training and in the mean time save up to buy one or two nice ones for yourself.


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## AndersonEquestrian (Sep 25, 2012)

They just dont have as pronounced withers as some horses.


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## IndianHorseWhisperer (Oct 19, 2012)

NBEventer said:


> Actually your saddles on your previous equine clientele didn't fit at all. And towels are not saddle pads either ;-) From the looks of your facebook page you need a serious update and revamp on your tack, especially if you want to be a professional trainer. You can not properly train horses in ill fitting tack. It is nice to see though that you put Little Bit in a bareback pad. Much better choice.
> 
> The cheap generic saddles don't fit horses. They are built like crud and pinch in all the wrong spots. There is a reason they are cheap.
> 
> My suggestion would be to get some quality used saddles. You can get a nice quality used saddle in the same price range as the new generic saddles.




In the September '97 issue of Horse Illustrated Magazine, Expert Saddle Fitter Bonnie Kreitler said, and i quote, "Small house towels may be a temporary fix for English saddles with trees that fit the horse well, but need very little panel adjustment". Which is what that was back then. A temporary fix. Thank you very much and have a nice day


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## IndianHorseWhisperer (Oct 19, 2012)

Equilove said:


> OP, if you cannot afford a quality saddle, is it possible to loan one from the horses' owners? If they have saddles that already fit their horses that will really help. That means you can continue training and in the mean time save up to buy one or two nice ones for yourself.


The owner's endurance saddle is what doesn't fit her so we are going to trade it out for a saddle with FQHB that should fit her big butt just fine


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

IHW - my mare's got the flattest back in the world xD so I feel your pain. Unfortunately I'm going to need to get her a treeless saddle - even the widest wintec gullet is too tight on her  
Have you looked into some quality treeless options?

Also - please don't take this critically, a saddle is better without a pad than with a towel. '97 was 15 years ago, we've come far in equine welfare sense then. The reason towels are not good is because they can bunch up and cause pressure points under the saddle. It can also rub the hair backwards or pinch. Being broke myself Ive found it quite easy to make saddle pads  Just go to a fabric store and get some fabric, and some quilt padding and sew it all together! It's much cheaper than $50 pads x.x But if the saddle fits appropriately you're better off without a pad at all - many people do that the first few rides in a saddle anyway to get the leather soft and supple. 

Another cheap fix is to just go bareback  the lucky thing about wide-backed, hard to fit horses is that they're really freaking comfy bareback horses!! hehe ^^ My mare's like a couch!


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

IndianHorseWhisperer said:


> The owner's endurance saddle is what doesn't fit her so we are going to trade it out for a saddle with FQHB that should fit her big butt just fine


I have a fat horse as well. She came to me that way, and we're working on it, but fitting her to a saddle is tough.

Then my other 2 horses are TB geldings with shark-fin withers. One has a broad chest, the other is more lean. I think I'm going to end up with 3 different saddles... lol.

It's a big investment but it's SO worth it (having good fitting saddles). You can feel the horse properly, and since the horse is more comfortable, it'll move out better for you. Think about how you feel going out with clothes that are too small, or too big, or pinch you, etc. I'm sure I don't have to stress the importance of well-fitted tack to you, but you get the point !


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Equi - have you looked into treeless options? I'm not sure exactly how they work but I hear they're supposed to be usuable for almost all types of backs - IDK though, but it may save you in the long run


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

PunksTank said:


> Equi - have you looked into treeless options? I'm not sure exactly how they work but I hear they're supposed to be usuable for almost all types of backs - IDK though, but it may save you in the long run


I have. I'd really like to get into dressage with my younger gelding, so I'm currently saving up to buy a nice quality dressage saddle that will fit him. My older gelding (who I just got) is lean, but he is also underweight. He's going to have the winter off from riding anyway because he needs to get healthy again, so by spring I'll see what his body is like.

As for my mare... My friend has a saddle that I use on her that fits her pretty well with a "flimsy" saddle pad. If I use too thick of a pad, it will be too narrow on her. If I sit it on her without a pad at all, it looks perfect. So I use a "TackyTack" non-slip pad for the short rides we do have. This saddle is her "fat pants" because she needs to lose weight badly, and I think she could squeeze into a medium tree if I work her hard enough >.< I've had someone else say that as well.

So anyway... I would LOVE to have a treeless saddle. They look super comfy.


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## IndianHorseWhisperer (Oct 19, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> IHW - my mare's got the flattest back in the world xD so I feel your pain. Unfortunately I'm going to need to get her a treeless saddle - even the widest wintec gullet is too tight on her
> Have you looked into some quality treeless options?
> 
> Also - please don't take this critically, a saddle is better without a pad than with a towel. '97 was 15 years ago, we've come far in equine welfare sense then. The reason towels are not good is because they can bunch up and cause pressure points under the saddle. It can also rub the hair backwards or pinch. Being broke myself Ive found it quite easy to make saddle pads  Just go to a fabric store and get some fabric, and some quilt padding and sew it all together! It's much cheaper than $50 pads x.x But if the saddle fits appropriately you're better off without a pad at all - many people do that the first few rides in a saddle anyway to get the leather soft and supple.
> ...


thanks


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## IndianHorseWhisperer (Oct 19, 2012)

Equilove said:


> I have a fat horse as well. She came to me that way, and we're working on it, but fitting her to a saddle is tough.
> 
> Then my other 2 horses are TB geldings with shark-fin withers. One has a broad chest, the other is more lean. I think I'm going to end up with 3 different saddles... lol.
> 
> It's a big investment but it's SO worth it (having good fitting saddles). You can feel the horse properly, and since the horse is more comfortable, it'll move out better for you. Think about how you feel going out with clothes that are too small, or too big, or pinch you, etc. I'm sure I don't have to stress the importance of well-fitted tack to you, but you get the point !


thanks


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## IndianHorseWhisperer (Oct 19, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> IHW - my mare's got the flattest back in the world xD so I feel your pain. Unfortunately I'm going to need to get her a treeless saddle - even the widest wintec gullet is too tight on her
> Have you looked into some quality treeless options?
> 
> Also - please don't take this critically, a saddle is better without a pad than with a towel. '97 was 15 years ago, we've come far in equine welfare sense then. The reason towels are not good is because they can bunch up and cause pressure points under the saddle. It can also rub the hair backwards or pinch. Being broke myself Ive found it quite easy to make saddle pads  Just go to a fabric store and get some fabric, and some quilt padding and sew it all together! It's much cheaper than $50 pads x.x But if the saddle fits appropriately you're better off without a pad at all - many people do that the first few rides in a saddle anyway to get the leather soft and supple.
> ...



I've learned that even weird old tricks in the Horse World that worked a million years ago could still work today but i totally agree with you! I've never really thought about treeless saddles thank you for your suggestion i'll look into it! After like 3 rides i just tossed the saddle and stuck to bareback for 6 months which he liked even better XD But this mare is a disaster when it comes to saddles!! I think she would be freakin awesome as far as bareback lol


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## IndianHorseWhisperer (Oct 19, 2012)

Equilove said:


> I have a fat horse as well. She came to me that way, and we're working on it, but fitting her to a saddle is tough.
> 
> Then my other 2 horses are TB geldings with shark-fin withers. One has a broad chest, the other is more lean. I think I'm going to end up with 3 different saddles... lol.
> 
> It's a big investment but it's SO worth it (having good fitting saddles). You can feel the horse properly, and since the horse is more comfortable, it'll move out better for you. Think about how you feel going out with clothes that are too small, or too big, or pinch you, etc. I'm sure I don't have to stress the importance of well-fitted tack to you, but you get the point !


my TB mare is the same way with shark fin withers!!! lol we are debating on just sticking with a bareback pad with her because shes a great dead broke mare...But LB is a basket case and a half as far as bareback **** so i'm gonna try either a treeless, or FQHB and see where that leaves me


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## Skunkworks (Oct 22, 2012)

I would also keep a sharp eye on craigslist and garage sales. I managed to pick up some nice, solid, brand name saddles for under $100. A lot of times people get a saddle given/handed down to them from a friend or grandparents and have no idea on how much they're worth.


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## IndianHorseWhisperer (Oct 19, 2012)

Skunkworks said:


> I would also keep a sharp eye on craigslist and garage sales. I managed to pick up some nice, solid, brand name saddles for under $100. A lot of times people get a saddle given/handed down to them from a friend or grandparents and have no idea on how much they're worth.


I've tried craigslist in my local area and all the saddles are severely overpriced. We are trying to find someone to trade the owners 500 dollar Endurance saddle for one with FQHB as we think that should fit her being as she is built like a tank lol. As for Beau he would benefit from a semi quarter saddle i think


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

my mare is a similar build to the gelding, I now have a big horn endurance that fits her like a glove.


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