# Lucky US - need input please



## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

so i rode lucky today and he’s been out of work for a few weeks b/c he cut his tongue. of course his back has been his ongoing issue, but it’s definitely getting better. i’m uploading video now for you to see, but in short here’s my observations and questions.

overall i have him going on a long rein and i notice he’s behind the bit a lot despite the fact that i literally had no pressure on the reins, so i’m wondering if that’s anticipation/pain from his tongue. it’s healed but lucky is a very sensitive and anxious horse so i think that may be it?

that aside i also noticed that the more he stretched down and relaxed, he’d start to pick himself up better. he wasn’t leaning on me but was ducking behind, until it seemed he stretched out and his back got looser (look later in the video).

at one point to the right he’s wagging his head and im trying to correct with my hands which is WRONG! i know! i stopped and he stopped - the right is his worse direction and i needed to get him to move off my leg better - again later in the video he seemed to do that.

all in all i’m happy that he’s stretching through his back, relaxing (he’s usually VERY anxious so we spent a lot of time just walking and settling) and starting to move forward and almost tracking up rather than his super-short hesitant trot. we still have a long ways to go though and i’d love some thoughts. my question is at what point do you think he’d be ready for a more traditional contact and start getting him to bring his head up? just keep riding with more leg/less hand (i need more leg than i was using today and i need to make that a primary focus - more leg even though he feels forward, he’s not truly engaged) and then as he gets stronger let him tell me? i’m not sure if i should try to get him to elevate his head as i add more leg or just let it come with time as he loosens and gains strength? any input would be greatly appreciated. 

vid in a minute, but still would love thoughts on what can help.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

Video finally!


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

What a beautiful boy! And he sure does have a lovely forward, opened trot! Cept the behind bit thing, lol - which is totally understandable due to his past predicaments.

Nelson does the same thing when I ride with too low of hands. I get a lovely, lovely forward trot from Nelson, meaning rhythmic but tracking up and under himself - but he goes behind on me. 

What fixes that, is picking up my hands and lifting him back up which leads to your question



> my question is at what point do you think he’d be ready for a more traditional contact and start getting him to bring his head up? just keep riding with more leg/less hand (i need more leg than i was using today and i need to make that a primary focus - more leg even though he feels forward, he’s not truly engaged) and then as he gets stronger let him tell me? i’m not sure if i should try to get him to elevate his head as i add more leg or just let it come with time as he loosens and gains strength? any input would be greatly appreciated.


I will tell you what my coach told me. Nelson and I are in kinda the same boat as you two are.

Nelson has had pretty much a year off. Give and take. He and I have gone through allot of trials and tribulations with people in our lives which prevented Nelson and I from being able to train and ride - but now that we are at a real facility and started back at square one under a very reputable coach, we are taking it 1 step at a time.

My Coach wants no contact at all. Nelson has no body tone. No topline. No lung capacity. We are both out of shape. We are also dealing with back issues because of poor saddle fit *chiro, massage therapy and saddle searching* 

Anyways, to sum it up, we are both out of shape and are in desperate need to getting back to where we were last eventing season.

What did my coach tell me? Hack. hack, hack, hack, hack, hack. You know very well what many benefits come from hacking to help start the building blocks of obtaining a balanced, conditioned horse all round. 

During our lessons, once a week - he demands a long rein, with contact. You know what that means. Outside rein in contact with his mouth, inside rein slack and soft. Driving inside leg into that outside rein. 

Forward. Not speedy gonzalus forward, but rhytmic and controlled. Via seat into leg and into the outside rein *yadda yadda, you know this*

When Nelson searches for the contact, which he does - keep things as they are with your seat and legs, soften your inside rein.

When Nelson goes behind, use more seat, use more leg while lifting my outside rein up. When Nelson goes back to where he should be, soften again with lots of praise.

Right now, I'm not allowed to carry my hands where they should be, I'm not allowed to shorten my reins. 

The key factor is, tracking up, lifting back into my seat and allowing him to reach down - but NOT under. 

We want the back end to build. We want the back to strengthen. We want the tracking up. We want our horses to open up, up front and move under themselves.

The moment I try to collect Nelson up - we loose it. We loose the forward momentum. We loose the tracking up. We loose his back - it drops, his head throws up in the air and we have to start all over. 

Try to pick him up with he does go behind on you. Lift him up with your outside rein, see what happens. 

I think it'll take time. You are on the right track.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

The reason your horse is BTV, is because your hands are always working backwards (and always working too).
At the beginning, he is trying to bring his neck up into a good frame and carry himself better, but you immediately pull backwards, instead of applying more leg to get him to stretch and then giving when he reaches for the contact. 
Either get really disciplined about keeping your elbows glued to your hips and having your knuckles resting on his neck 100% of the time, or buy a bucking strap and hold onto it. You need to fix your hands and make them quiet before his is going to quietly stretch into your contact.
Another thing that I'd like to say is it looks like you are chasing him quicker, instead of allowing his stride to get bigger. Don't post so quickly, or do a sitting trot. Your seat is constantly driving him in a really nagging way, and I think that is adding to his apprehensions.

Good luck!


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> The reason your horse is BTV, is because your hands are always working backwards (and always working too).
> At the beginning, he is trying to bring his neck up into a good frame and carry himself better, but you immediately pull backwards, instead of applying more leg to get him to stretch and then giving when he reaches for the contact.
> Either get really disciplined about keeping your elbows glued to your hips and having your knuckles resting on his neck 100% of the time, or buy a bucking strap and hold onto it. You need to fix your hands and make them quiet before his is going to quietly stretch into your contact.
> Another thing that I'd like to say is it looks like you are chasing him quicker, instead of allowing his stride to get bigger. Don't post so quickly, or do a sitting trot. Your seat is constantly driving him in a really nagging way, and I think that is adding to his apprehensions.
> ...


actually, other than the one spot, my hands had no contact other than to keep the reins from being so long they were literally sloppy. at several points in the vid (idk if you can see or not) i actually open my fingers on the reins completely to show that he's staying behind the bit with 0 pressure on the reins at all. so making my hands quiet as you put it isn't going to do anything since other than the spot where i said i caught myself using my hands too much, they had no rein contact at all. you make it sound like i'm a novice when actually i'm a trainer and quite quiet with my hands, in this case (again other than the spot that i caught myself riding with my hands) i'm looking for input on how to drive him forward and i agree with MIE, i clearly need more leg. i just rewatched the video and other than the spot i mentioned, and when he's bracing and i use the inside rein's motion to move his head and release from bracing, i don't really see my hands moving much at all, and in most of the video, i have straight line elbow to bit with slack in the reins, elbows at my side. *MIE (or anyone else) second opinion please? *

as for my seat driving him, i also completely disagree as my seat never made full contact with the saddle. he can't DO sitting trot due to a history of back injuries, and i literally spent more time out of the saddle than in it. so nope, sorry i am not driving him with my seat. i believe the issue is quite the contrary (as i shared this with a friend who is also a trainer) in that i'm not using my seat at all which is causing him to "look around" so to speak to find the rhythm from my seat - and my seat wasn't there. i'm going to be working on using my seat and riding deeper in the sitting part of the posting trot. like i said it was b/c i was afraid to land on his back b/c of his past issues but i actually think it’s doing more harm than good since i’m not using my seat to help him relax at all. i think i was overcautious to the point that it became counterproductive if that makes sense. i can sit and use my seat on the downward part of the post deeply without being heavy or driving - which is what i think he needs and will make me more effective for him right now.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

To each their own - I re watched the video and still stand by my statements.
If you would like, I can go through the video, do screen shots and explain what I'm seeing.

ETA: who do you ride with? You can PM me.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

MIEventer said:


> What a beautiful boy! And he sure does have a lovely forward, opened trot! Cept the behind bit thing, lol - which is totally understandable due to his past predicaments.
> 
> We want the back end to build. We want the back to strengthen. We want the tracking up. We want our horses to open up, up front and move under themselves.
> 
> ...


thank you to all of it - this is really helpful. i replied to the other post re: seat as i'm not driving with it, but actually not using it at all which is majorly incorrect and part of why i think he stayed behind. 

unlike you and nelson, lucky has been out of work, but i have 6 horses as well as a barn full of client horses to train and ride and rescues to work with so i'm in shape while he (quite obviously) is not. in this case i think i'm being too overcautious which actually made his trot worse rather than better - and i can't use more leg PROPERLY unless i start riding him through my seat. it's funny b/c on other horses i'm so used to riding them together with a deeper seat, but in this case i'm so tentative b/c he's so anxious and he's had SO many MAJOR back issues. oh and the recent gouging open of his tongue which imo is the biggest reason he's behind the bit.

just to give you an idea - 6 years ago sky (my rather large jumper) reared in the field and landed on top of lucky perpendicular to him with *all four feet off the ground and his full 1300 pounds of body weight across lucky's back.* that was major back injury #1, that took a year of rehabilitation.

when coming back from that, he kicked out in his stall which had a back wall about 5' high, and somehow got his leg OVER the back wall (there was a manure belt behind it so that's why there was an additional wall there) and took off most of the skin and tendons on the front of his right hind leg, and damaged his hip and stifle somewhat. that was about another year off.

when coming back from THAT, he was playing in the field and sky and him collided....again...which landed us back with a new chiro who was supposed to be the best of the best (worked on funny cide and smarty jones, etc.). well the guy did too much too soon and lucky was great for one ride the day after til POW, hit a nerve and it was 100 times worse...*sigh* buck, throw out back and hips, aggravate shoulders....and you guessed it...more time off.

over the course of the next year and a half, we tried different turnouts (away from sky) and numerous chiros and massage therapists until we found ones that worked for lucky. b/c of his bad experiences he had started kicking out at massage therapists and chiros (there was a massage therapist that worked on him with the chiro that did too much and he created a bad association with both).

finally better! yay! start under saddle again....and winter comes, he's back out with sky and they play, slip, and SLAM into each other (well i should say sky into lucky) and result in tearing of the ligaments and tendons and connective tissue from back end of withers to middle of back - yeah where the saddle goes. heat, swelling, the whole 9....yup another year.

FINALLY better, sky has a new friend now (my clydesdale cross that's 2x his size and can take sky's antics and lucky now stands up for himself) and lucky is back in work...only BAM i twist my knee and wind up out for 4 mos. great....and since lucky's so sensitive (and jumpy and spooky and anxious) i don't have a lot of people that can get on him so he's sound but gets more time off with some longe work while i heal. finally we're both healed, and i longe him first to let him loosen and....somehow when walking to take the line off so i can get on he leans down to scratch his knee and somehow tangles himself in either the line or who knows, scares himself, spooks, pulls on the line or his reins and cuts his tongue severely. YAY (*sigh*) ANOTHER month off.

and now this. so i hope that explains my oversensitivity at being too light on his back as well as why i literally had no rein contact and other than to correct him when bracing, i really didn't mess with his mouth at all. oh and why i think the "tongue issue" is the biggest reason he's behind the bit - it's a month old and healed, but still a little tender, and add that to the fact that he's anxious about pain and well....

oh and yes i did separate him and sky multiple times, but both get depressed and go off their feed.....they came off the track together, and are very attached (though very destructive...) so i'm glad that sky has another friend to roughhouse with now that can take it and lucky and sky can still be friends with less injuries


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> To each their own - I re watched the video and still stand by my statements.
> If you would like, I can go through the video, do screen shots and explain what I'm seeing.
> 
> ETA: who do you ride with? You can PM me.


if you look closely, there's slack in the reins at nearly all times and you can see them flapping, including multiple times when i've got no more than two fingers on each rein (i noted that early in the vid im trying to stop him wagging his head with incorrect rein use - i should have used leg - and i caught it and corrected, and other than that the only time i use the inside rein is on the circle when he'd collapse to the inside and brace on bit and inside leg, so used the inside rein motion to move his mouth then let go). he's a very fidgety horse, always mouthing the bit, tossing his head, etc. etc., shaking his head side to side, and so on. i also have NO weight on his back, so i'm def not chasing him b/c i didn't even touch the saddle with my seat on the down of the post. i DO need to start posting deeper though so that i can set rhythm with my seat and use my leg more effectively rather than posting more "up" with less effective leg and no seat contact. i wish i had vid of me on my other horses who don't have such a long history of pain and what not, so you can see that i'm not at all handsy or shallow with seat/leg. 

i'd still love another opinion of this b/c from all the people who have seen the video (over 10 people as i posted on another forum as well) you're the only one to make these observations re: chasing with seat and handsy riding. everyone else saw lack of seat leg (agreed - i need to correct) and slack in reins and suggested picking up outside rein and/or just giving him time and riding him more forward with seat/leg to let him figure it out on his own and learn that there is no longer pain. he's so used to pain (see history above) and esp the last incident where he nearly severed his tongue would certainly be cause to go behind the bit, esp since prior to this he hadn't done that at all.

i do my own training (as im a trainer obv) however i do believe even trainers need trainers, and i lesson with suellen "rosie" mally and bruce patti primarily. rosie does gp dressage and bruce is an eventer with a deep foundation in dressage.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

found more! these are a few days pre-tongue injury. still behind bit somewhat but totally more relaxed in that regards than he was post-tongue injury!
P1070750.flv video by CJ82Kitters - Photobucket
P1070753.flv video by CJ82Kitters - Photobucket

he's still behind the bit but less fidgety (since no tongue pain i'd assume?) and my hands are barely moving other than to pick him up - but i used inside rein - next time i'll try outside rein. i'm still not using my seat/leg though and have him almost stuck to my leg. (knee brace b/c i was just coming back from my knee injury and it shows  )

and here he is with a student of mine who rode him in April when he was first coming back into work and rushing and very tentative re: pain. he needed a few more chirp adjustments before he was in work again - which he got.






interesting in that when he was still backsore, he was less behind the vert which i'm thinking is b/c he was more forward. thoughts? yes, it's a rushed forward, not a correct forward, but would mean that if i rode more seat/leg as we've all agreed i need to do with him, that he'd bring himself up to balance and reach behind less. thoughts thoughts anyone?


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Riding with a slack rein does not mean you are not pulling back. Riding with a slack rein does not mean a horse doesn't feel your hands moving. As long as you are holding onto the reins, you have a contact with the horse's mouth and can therefore influence it, either positively or negatively.
That's really nice that you train horses. My family friend's 19 year old daughter does too and she's managed to ruin a $90,000 imported young horse in 6 mos. I hope you're a better horse trainer than she is.
If you'd like to continue arguing about how superior you are then you can PM me, and next time when you want to post a video and hear about how great you are - there is a video section. If you would like to accept that this is the internet and that people are entitled to their own opinions, especially when you post in the critique section, and that you can either take or leave those opinions w/o arguing with people you don't even know, then you can drop it.

Thanks 

ETA: The first video is better, the second one posted, right at the beginning and at 0:07 you clearly move your hands down and back to correct the horse. This is not correct, you need to use leg and soften the hand.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Riding with a slack rein does not mean you are not pulling back. Riding with a slack rein does not mean a horse doesn't feel your hands moving. As long as you are holding onto the reins, you have a contact with the horse's mouth and can therefore influence it, either positively or negatively.
> That's really nice that you train horses. My family friend's 19 year old daughter does too and she's managed to ruin a $90,000 imported young horse in 6 mos. I hope you're a better horse trainer than she is.
> If you'd like to continue arguing about how superior you are then you can PM me, and next time when you want to post a video and hear about how great you are - there is a video section. If you would like to accept that this is the internet and that people are entitled to their own opinions, especially when you post in the critique section, and that you can either take or leave those opinions w/o arguing with people you don't even know, then you can drop it.
> 
> Thanks


WOW. it works both ways - a horse's mouth moving can move the riders hands if the rider has a soft, relaxed hand, even on a slack rein. i've agreed that i need more seat/leg, and that i have a lot to fix with lucky, hence the asking for advice. i just am not seeing what you are, and neither did my trainers or several other trainers that i network with across the country, which is why i question it. i'm still waiting for additional opinions on here from other people, but again i've shown multiple people the vids, and don't see what you do - nor does anyone else. i didn't realize your opinion was superior to everyone else's on the internet or in real life, honey. my bad!

as for my ability to train horses, i'd like to think that at more than one and half time your friends age, with zero horses ruined, almost three decades of riding, a college degree in Equine Studies and the training award recipient in my graduating class that i'm doing something right....at least my horses and my clients seem to think so, as do my trainers. 

everyone is entitled to their opinion, however no one asked for your holier than thou attitude, so i suggest you take it elsewhere, since it's apparent you have nothing constructive to say. Thanks!


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

oh wait - and i missed where i said i was superior? i believe i said i needed work, as did lucky, specifically on seat and leg. i'm sorry, in english that doesn't seem to translate to superior. did i miss something?


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> ETA: The first video is better, the second one posted, right at the beginning and at 0:07 you clearly move your hands down and back to correct the horse. This is not correct, you need to use leg and soften the hand.


no really? isn't that what i SAID i needed to correct when riding this horse? or wait no, would that make me superior? i thought that was something clearly stated in my earlier posts.....


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> If you'd like to continue arguing about how superior you are then you can PM me, and next time when you want to post a video and hear about how great you are - there is a video section. If you would like to accept that this is the internet and that people are entitled to their own opinions, especially when you post in the critique section, and that you can either take or leave those opinions w/o arguing with people you don't even know, then you can drop it.


I find it ironic how those who get offended by others who think they are "superior" come off that way themselves.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Thanks for taking it to PMs. I've always felt that in critique threads, you post, then other people post and then you say thank you. If a judge after your test spoke to you about something, you would not talk back and make excuses and say "but you're wrong!!", you would say thank you and keep your opinions to yourself.
$0.02


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

ugh im SO frustrated right now. i really would like HONEST GOOD SOLID opinions on what to correct.

i KNOW i messed up and went to reins rather than leg a few points in this vid and the older one, and called that out up front to say - hey - what i did was WRONG and i need to use more leg. i KNOW THIS.

what i DON'T KNOW and am ASKING ADVICE on is how do i pick him up? from what i've been told on other forums where I shared this with several of my trainers and trainer friends of mine, was that don't - ride him forward with more leg and seat, and don't be afraid to sit the down of the post rather than the tentative "hover" that i was doing that not only made my seat ineffective but made my leg something he could brace against, rather than ride through.

the other comment (from MIE - thank you) was to try to pick up with the outside rein (rather than inside rein which i do at a few points - also incorrect and i know better....shame on me), and see what happens. either he'll pick up and move forward (with obv seat/leg coming first) or else he'll back off in which case he's not strong and ready.

i also like the idea of hacking a ton to just get him comfortable and to settle and realize there is no pain. my plan is to do every few days as i don't think he's fit enough to do days in a row. i also got some great additions to the standard carrot stretches (we do those before and after every ride) that i'm going to try, and someone suggested to watch atlas for pain as that's a common cause of going behind the bit too (which he has had serious atlas issues and was just recently adjusted).

last question - when do i know when it is okay to work on sitting trot with him to help him engage his back? i can ride with a soft seat (not digging into his back as that would hurt obviously) and i know the difference between riding in a deep seat and riding in a heavy seat. my clyde cross needs a rather deep seat to properly engage as he can be lazy. anyway, riding lucky brings out the worst in me because im SO afraid to touch the reins, his back, his sides, etc., that i underride and totally go to crap. are there any exercises that i can do to help him get stronger and know when i can ride with more seat? thank you for those of you who are willing to help me work through this.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Thanks for taking it to PMs. I've always felt that in critique threads, you post, then other people post and then you say thank you. If a judge after your test spoke to you about something, you would not talk back and make excuses and say "but you're wrong!!", you would say thank you and keep your opinions to yourself.
> $0.02


ditto, kid. still waiting on your PM....

and i didn't realize you were judge! wow! 
i don't make excuses, but when someone sees something no trainers see, i absolutely question the validity of that input. esp when they are not a trainer themselves.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> If a judge after your test spoke to you about something, you would not talk back and make excuses and say "but you're wrong!!", you would say thank you and keep your opinions to yourself.
> $0.02


This is CJ8Sky's thread, on a forum. Not a Ring at a costly horse show. No one here is a Judge and she's not paying anyone.

I do believe that she, that includes anyone who posts a critique thread, has the right to voice their opinions on opinions.

Afterall, forums are full of them.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

CJ82Sky said:


> *ugh im SO frustrated right now.* i really would like HONEST GOOD SOLID opinions on what to correct.
> 
> i KNOW i messed up and went to reins rather than leg a few points in this vid and the older one, and called that out up front to say - hey - what i did was WRONG and i need to use more leg. i KNOW THIS.
> 
> ...


This is exactly how I feel as well, thank you for communicating and now I'll try to do the same.
When I say you hand is moving too much - this is what I mean is that you are fixing things with your hands when they should be still. What helps this is getting a bucking strap, or resting your hands somewhere so that temptation is gone. You can still feel with your fingers. As far as raising the outside hand, classically this is incorrect. It is in the same taboo area as crossing your hands over the neck. It can be done when you know what you're doing, or riding with someone that does, but I wouldn't do it alone and I certainly wouldn't get in the habit of doing it.
Raising the inside hand however, for a rider who can 80% consistently keep their hands down, soft and correct, and with a horse that is working toward increasing collection and bend in a working trot can be correct. Raising the inside hand just helps getting the correct amount of flexion.

I know this is going to sound a bit cold hearted, but it is the truth. You need to sit down and ride the horse as if there was nothing wrong, and if he breaks down then you need to find him a new career/home etc.. If he stands up to proper riding then that's wonderful and you've done a great job re-habilitating him.
Yes your seat is too light, but it is this too lightness that is inherently driving him to go too quickly. I know exactly the temperament of the horse you are sitting on, and you need to sit on them or else two strides from now you aren't going to be sitting on them anymore. It is the steadieness and quietness of your seat and leg that are going to be a comfort to him - not neccessarily the heaviness. I wouldn't be concerned about the forward right now with him. He needs to be going in a quiet rhythm (10-15 bpm slower than now), in balance and you need to have your leg just on him, not aiding but a good 10psi of on-ness, all the time.
And ignore his face for now. As long as it's not sky high or between his knees it doesn't matter.
For the training progression - treat him like a young 4 year old right now. No lateral work, even rhythm, balance, starting fwd-back trans, and basically ignoring the face. 

Good luck.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

With this horse, I would use methods that ignore everything from the neck forward. Particulary with his tongue issue, I would want to have him respond to your seat before you ever have to ask for anything via his mouth. I would ride squares, spiral in/spiral out, and leg yeild as a means of getting him focused on balancing himself using his body rather than trying to pull on the reins. All of the three can be done on a relatively loose rein and all engage the hind end and create even more slack in the reins as each step is taken. All use manipulation of the shoulders and hindquarters and don't have anything to do with the head other than the leg yeild which requires the proper flexion. He needs to be balancing himself without hanging on the reins, however long they are. Even with them a mile long, he's still trying to either pull on them or evade the bit. Any time he comes behind the bit, I would drop the reins altogether for a stride or two so he has nothing to hang on, or cause his tounge pain. If you have to, come down to a walk for a single stride the second he gets heavy, and then pop back up into a trot. I've been at work all day, so I'm probably not making much sense, but my point is to use exercises that involve his body rather than his mouth.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

okay first - anabel - i've BEEN communicating, it's you who's been snippy, but thanks for the reply.

THAT said....

i don't believe i need a bucking strap as 90% of the time my hands are not moving other than inside on the circle (leading rein) with the inside rein (which is correct) or the few spots where i corrected his bracing with hand, not leg (which i believe i have now addressed TO DEATH from the very first post that i was both aware that i did it and that it was incorrect, so hey, for sh*ts and giggles, let's drop that one).

in my experience a bucking strap is used for a rider with instable hands - which i don't have. so i'm going to pass on that but again thank you for your opinion. it's my right to choose to apply it or not, and based on my experience and the work with my trainers, it doesn't fit my need or riding. thank you, regardless, as you are also entitled to your opinion.

for lifting outside rein, that IS correct for rehabilitation of a horse based on extensive research and studies i did in college with a vet on how to rehab a horse coming off a serious hind end injury. is it classic training for a horse w/o issues that is just green? not at all. but it is correct for a horse coming off an injury, which he is (several haha). as for lifting inside rein - yes, when he leans/braces on it which i do a few times in the vids when he's stiffening. what i failed to do however was add leg FIRST before using the inside rein to stop the bracing. what would have been far more effective (thank you emily on another forum) is applying upper thigh to ask him to move through ribcage, then lifting inside rein and releasing to get him to release the tension on the bit when he's nervous/tense/anxious (this usually comes on the lower arc of a circle or the downhill corners as my ring is slightly graded, so makes sense that he wants to shift forward and ask me to carry him when he is weak).

next, as for light seat, yes huge issue. i'm almost hovering and i felt it when riding as my calves were sore from sinking into my heels and posting off thigh and not touching his back. that of course made my leg rigid which also made my leg less effective and led him to rush due to lack of proper contact and rhythm. i need to trust that since the vet and chiro have cleared him to ride, that he's okay to ride, period, and ride him correctly. i agree there. though no, no sitting trot. from the extent and damage to his back, it will be some time before he will be strong enough physically to handle a rider doing the sitting trot no matter how soft their seat. as for him - he has a home for life with me regardless, and after many many years of layup, i'm certainly not going to just ignore his issues and ride him as if he's a normal horse, since he does have special needs that i need to consider - not every horse is the same nor can be ridden the same. however i do agree that i need to accept that he's cleared to ride, and although i can't sit the trot yet, i need to post properly and use seat and leg properly or else the riding isn't doing any good. as for leaving his face alone, within reason yes (i still need to steer - as i always say to my students "reins are a suggestion of direction and legs are for actual steering" so yes reins within reason) and i'd go to a halter to ride except for his anxiousness right now that has him a bit jumpy until he rebuilds confidence. so i'll just keep the long rein and work to use my leg and seat more effectively and only use the reins as stated above until he starts to trust and lift himself up.

agreed no lateral work, etc., just trotting and big circles. he knows and has done basic lateral work but he's not even strong enough for sitting trot...lateral work is def a no-no at this point in time.

finally, i do disagree how you say there's no need for more forward. speed - no. no need for more speed. slower rhythm - yes. but more forward will give him better rhythm with more balanced trot and also allow him to reach for the bit and bring himself up when he is ready. lack of forward will mean more evasions, lack of engagement in the back and hind end, and that's exactly what he doesn't need. he needs steady rhythm and pace to engage his back and build strength, which comes from forward riding of seat to legs to hands.



ASIDE: i work as a trainer, with multiple trainers, as stated before i believe even the best of the trainers need trainers (and even my trainers have trainers of their own despite riding gp, etc.). that said i use all resources available to me when working on a horse, be it for a client or my own, including my trainers in helping to formulate a training plan, books, magazines, and even the internet to ask for opinions as i feel everyone has something to share. i am far from perfect, and appreciate honest advice. your pot shot at me as a trainer was not only low and rude, it was absolutely uncalled for as up until that point i had not been rude or nasty, but simply disagreed with your opinion as all of the equine professionals i shared the video with did not see what you seem to see with regards to my hands being "busy", and i know and trust their qualifications and experience and advice. that said, i'm willing to forget your comment and move on.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

MyBoyPuck said:


> With this horse, I would use methods that ignore everything from the neck forward. Particulary with his tongue issue, I would want to have him respond to your seat before you ever have to ask for anything via his mouth. I would ride squares, spiral in/spiral out, and leg yeild as a means of getting him focused on balancing himself using his body rather than trying to pull on the reins. All of the three can be done on a relatively loose rein and all engage the hind end and create even more slack in the reins as each step is taken. All use manipulation of the shoulders and hindquarters and don't have anything to do with the head other than the leg yeild which requires the proper flexion. He needs to be balancing himself without hanging on the reins, however long they are. Even with them a mile long, he's still trying to either pull on them or evade the bit. Any time he comes behind the bit, I would drop the reins altogether for a stride or two so he has nothing to hang on, or cause his tounge pain. If you have to, come down to a walk for a single stride the second he gets heavy, and then pop back up into a trot. I've been at work all day, so I'm probably not making much sense, but my point is to use exercises that involve his body rather than his mouth.



awesome thank you!!!! just a note though - when he's behind the bit, he's not heavy - there's no pressure on the reins at all! idk if you can see in the vid, but often i've just got the reins between two fingers to see if not holding them would change anything and it didn't. it's so odd, but i think it's from atlas pain and tongue hesitation if that makes sense.

question for you - and yes i'll also follow up with my trainers as they know the horse firsthand of course - but leg yield with his back issues, do you think it's alright to add them now or wait a few weeks of consistent trotting work and what not for him to build strength? i think it will be some time before i can take a "traditional" contact so to speak, but i agree that leg yield will help him loosen and he doesn't need a contact to do that. the other stuff i can start doing right away and i love both suggestions. spirals may take a few more rides to make sure he doesn't lean in on leg, but i do need to correct my seat/leg on him first.

he's so odd to ride i think i need to get over my own fears of his pain to be honest! thank you!!!


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> With this horse, I would use methods that ignore everything from the neck forward. Particulary with his tongue issue, I would want to have him respond to your seat before you ever have to ask for anything via his mouth. I would ride squares, spiral in/spiral out, and leg yeild as a means of getting him focused on balancing himself using his body rather than trying to pull on the reins. All of the three can be done on a relatively loose rein and all engage the hind end and create even more slack in the reins as each step is taken. All use manipulation of the shoulders and hindquarters and don't have anything to do with the head other than the leg yeild which requires the proper flexion. He needs to be balancing himself without hanging on the reins, however long they are. Even with them a mile long, he's still trying to either pull on them or evade the bit. Any time he comes behind the bit, I would drop the reins altogether for a stride or two so he has nothing to hang on, or cause his tounge pain. If you have to, come down to a walk for a single stride the second he gets heavy, and then pop back up into a trot. I've been at work all day, so I'm probably not making much sense, but my point is to use exercises that involve his body rather than his mouth.


Great post.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Since leg yeild does not involve any bend, I doubt it would hurt his back. I'm sure he'd tell you quickly enough if I'm wrong there! Anything to get his brain thinking about things other than his tongue. 

I hear you about the fears about his pain. Nobody wants to hurt their baby. If he doesn't get over his tongue issue, maybe he'd go alright in a hackamore?


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

MyBoyPuck said:


> Since leg yeild does not involve any bend, I doubt it would hurt his back. I'm sure he'd tell you quickly enough if I'm wrong there! Anything to get his brain thinking about things other than his tongue.
> 
> I hear you about the fears about his pain. Nobody wants to hurt their baby. If he doesn't get over his tongue issue, maybe he'd go alright in a hackamore?


good call on the leg yield thanks! i will definitely try that!

and i thought about the hackamore but he's SO outright spooky right now b/c of anxiousness (it's not normally him but after 6 years of issues can ya blame the poor kid? lol!). he also mouths the bit a lot when nervous, and it acts as a bit of a pacifier right now. my other concern w/a hackamore is his atlas issues....that came from the original injury which was a fall on the track that got him off the track....that messed up his neck and poll (it's the white spot on his shoulder as well - it's from a scrape from that fall on the track that grew in with white hair).

i know....lucky really isn't so lucky haha. he came with the name! i swear!


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## pithehorse (May 25, 2009)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> This is exactly how I feel as well, thank you for communicating and now I'll try to do the same.
> When I say you hand is moving too much - this is what I mean is that you are fixing things with your hands when they should be still. What helps this is getting a bucking strap, or resting your hands somewhere so that temptation is gone. You can still feel with your fingers. As far as raising the outside hand, classically this is incorrect. It is in the same taboo area as crossing your hands over the neck. It can be done when you know what you're doing, or riding with someone that does, but I wouldn't do it alone and I certainly wouldn't get in the habit of doing it.
> Raising the inside hand however, for a rider who can 80% consistently keep their hands down, soft and correct, and with a horse that is working toward increasing collection and bend in a working trot can be correct. Raising the inside hand just helps getting the correct amount of flexion.
> 
> ...


I want to know where you get half of this crap? If her hands were moving too much, the horse would be hollowing out more and lifting his head. Either that or he'd be see sawing his head. Either way, he wouldn't be attempting to reach as often as he does.
The rider needs to work on sending the horse forward. Yes, forward. Right now he is moving fast, but he is not engaging, which could be from pain. Forward means that he is traveling purposefully, with the hind legs reaching up into the tracks of the front feet. He'll have a slow tempo and it will help him establish rhythm. The rider should achieve this by slowing her posting, and establishing the rhythm herself. Right now, she is following it too much, I think to avoid hurting his back. The result is he chooses his own rhythm, which right now he cannot keep steady because he does not have the balance.
The rider should slow her posts, bring her seat under, but maintain the lightness. A light seat will not make a horse hot or tense. Right now he needs to bring his back up, and if she were to put weight on it, that would only discourage him from bringing it up. A light seat can be supportive- a show jumper or eventer on course has a light seat but is still communicating with the horse.But if she sits up more, she can post more with her core muscles and establish the tempo herself. The horse will then be most comfortable moving with this tempo and will follow her. He may fall out of it at this point because it will involve more work on his muscles and as of now they are weak.
Right now the rider has adopted the "wide and low" frame for her hands. If she were to get a bucking stap to hold onto, the reins would be narrowed. This is detrimental to the horse because it means he cannot keep his shoulders in between the reins. He needs wiggle room right now, so the wide base provides for this. What I also see is not her pulling back, but pulling out to ask for flexion. Yes, she pulled back slightly a few times, but it didn't upset the horse's balance at that point.
I think if CJ were to just concentrate on her body and posting, the hands will follow. She won't fall into going to the hands first like she did in one spot.
Lucky will tell Cj when he's ready to go in a more level frame. Once he starts stretching and searching for the bit, he is ready for her to pick the reins up and work on lifting the shoulders. The long and low will put the horse slightly downhill once he starts moving, so if he starts rushing after going well, it means he's probably ready to work in a higher frame.
And if proper riding ever "breaks" a horse, then it is not proper riding. The purpose of Dressage is to set parameters for the horse in which he can learn to move comfortably. Every horse can achieve training level-first level frames at least. If not, it's because the rider is doing something wrong. A program that involves a heavy seat and hurting the horse's back is not right. Niether is giving the horse such an ultimatum. A good rider will always work with the horse and find the best program for him, but overall it won't differ to heavily in the end from correct riding. However, in the meantime, the rider must sometimes go to an extreme in one way or another for a short time, then come back to the ideal. The perfect picture seen at a show is an end result, not a training session. At home, deviations are sometimes needed temporarily.


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## pithehorse (May 25, 2009)

Cj- you can also try turns on the forehand to get him to engage the inside hind and move into the bit. Since a turn on the forehand just involves lots of small half halts, it's a great check to where he's not responding because the forward movement has been eliminated.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> He'll have a slow tempo and it will help him establish rhythm. The rider should achieve this by slowing her posting, and establishing the rhythm herself. Right now, she is following it too much, I think to avoid hurting his back. The result is he chooses his own rhythm, which right now he cannot keep steady because he does not have the balance.


Exactly. Seat into Legs into Hands. You slow your seat, your horse will follow. Well said.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

pithehorse said:


> Cj- you can also try turns on the forehand to get him to engage the inside hind and move into the bit. Since a turn on the forehand just involves lots of small half halts, it's a great check to where he's not responding because the forward movement has been eliminated.


thank you pi - for this and the above. makes total sense. i also can def try the turns on the fore in little bits - didn't think of that one!


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