# Extremly aggressive horse



## damnedEvans (Jan 23, 2010)

Hello. I guess lately I find myself dealing with a lot of problems . Well, here's the story. 

Lately we received a new horse, he is a stallion, 4 or 5 years old, his name is Calin. He is a Shaghya Arab, almost or over 16 hh I guess, he is branded but the brand is not very visible, I guess because of his coloring. He is an abused horse, obviously. I don't know his past, I know only that he has bitten his owner from the belly and the owner received medical care. After that we were called to help the owner to catch his horse. He said initially that we should take the horse because he can't handle him. After that he said that he called us only to help him catching it. We ended by buying the horse with almost 600 $. They wanted to kill the horse so we saved him from sure death. The catching was a real fight. The horse was so aggressive that he wanted to attack all the people that tried to approach him. If you came close to him, at 100 m, he will attack you. And it was an open field. He tried to attack even the car, he took a bite from the car and wanted to crush it with his front hoofs. 
We catch him with a lot of effort. He loads great but we needed two or three people to hold him. 


Now we want to geld him and then work with it. We will be happy if we could bring him to a state were an experienced person could handle him. I'm aware that he will not be a docile horse ever. He saw that he could attack a human, or dominate him so it will be very hard to teach him otherwise. 

I think that the horse was beaten up often and he think that every human want to beat him when he approach him. He is very scared of groups and children. If you go to him lonely he is more relaxed and you can touch him. But if he feels threatened he will turn his butt at you and try to hit you, or he will try to attack you with his front legs. We can't keep him in a stall because it will be almost impossible to catch him after, so we keep him in a standing stall. 

*I want to see your opinions. Do you think that his case is beyond hope? You think that he can be trained to not attack people and accept their presence? What will be the best way to approach him? *
And I should mention that we can't send him to a trainer :lol:. We don't have horse trainers here in the proper sense. In my country this job doesn't exist. The so called horse trainers are the ones that can teach a horse some tricks or teach him to accept the saddle or harness. But even this things are done by the owner. We have two very experienced horsemen who will deal with the horse. This is the best that we can offer him. They said that the horse will be ok and they will manage to calm him. I trust them but I wanted a second opinion. I know that the ways of training are different and I want to hear all the opinions available. 

I will put some videos with him to see his reactions. 

DISCLAIMER: I know that the person that is dealing with the horse in this video doesn't do this in a responsible manner. But it was his choice to approach the horse and to expose himself to the danger. He worked with horses more than 15 years. 









1. Here Calin is treated in a very calm and non aggressive manner. We try to make him tolerate human presence. We can't punish him if he tries to bite at this point because he will become to scared and defensive. We try only to make him understand that human presence is not bringing him any harm. If we will accomplish this we will try to demonstrate him that we are leaders and he must obey. 





2. Here you can see how nervous the horse can be. He is biting the metal bars form his stall.
Calin 3 video by gothic-evans - Photobucket

3. Here the person is trying to put a bit in his mouths. We want to put a bridle on him for a better control. Because he stands only in the stall 'cause is very dangerous to bring him outside with only the halter. The horse got scared and tried to attack. The person was ok after the incidend. 
Calin video 2 video by gothic-evans - Photobucket


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

How very, very sad. He's quite beautiful, too.

My opinion: I'm very uncomfortable with the restraint. I know you have to be safe, but forcing the human presence doesn't seem to be working. I would actually stay away. After gelding, and doing his feet and teeth (under sedation) I wouldn't touch him at all, maybe not for weeks. I would put him in a pen large enough for a little exercise, and some shelter, and get him used to being fed. The human presence would become something less than evil. I would start touching him at a distance, with a shedding comb, something with a handle, just to brush flies off. He needs to want to come to the human. I would try to have just one handler. Other people should stay away. I think everything needs to be as consistent as possible.

When it was time for necessary handling, like farrier work, I would use a mild sedative. Horses can learn under mild sedation.

I would expect this to take a long, LONG time. I've heard of horses being rescued like this, and many never become more than pets. But you never know, especially with Arabs. Best of luck!


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## damnedEvans (Jan 23, 2010)

Beling said:


> How very, very sad. He's quite beautiful, too.
> 
> My opinion: I'm very uncomfortable with the restraint. I know you have to be safe, but forcing the human presence doesn't seem to be working. I would actually stay away. After gelding, and doing his feet and teeth (under sedation) I wouldn't touch him at all, maybe not for weeks. I would put him in a pen large enough for a little exercise, and some shelter, and get him used to being fed. The human presence would become something less than evil. I would start touching him at a distance, with a shedding comb, something with a handle, just to brush flies off. He needs to want to come to the human. I would try to have just one handler. Other people should stay away. I think everything needs to be as consistent as possible.
> 
> ...


I wished you had a round pen to keep him there, or at least a small paddock, but we don't have such a thing. We have two paddock, one in front of the barn where we keep the young horses and the pasture ornaments and one for the sound horses, geldings and mares. We don't keep stallions, as soon as a stallion comes to us we gelded him asap. If he is a stallion we keep him tied. Now we have two. Your advice is really good anyway. I also think that forcing human contact to him doesn't really work, but we must try all the alternatives available. We really want to rehabilitate this horse. He had a hard life from what I see. He is scared and defensive all the time and I'm really sure that he doesn't do it with no reason. 
Thank you.


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## FoxyRoxy1507 (Jul 15, 2008)

he is gorgous he looks to have some draft in him. what seems to work is not forcing the prescence but def using food to get him to tolerate you and then want to b with u


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

wow he is beautiful. It's too bad that you don't have an area to put him to just be a horse for a while. Him being tied up like that is not helping the situation at all.


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## G and K's Mom (Jan 11, 2008)

damnedEvans said:


> . *If he is a stallion we keep him tied. Now we have two.*


I understand that your heart is in the right place........ That said you are not set up to be doing this type of "rescue". If your not set up for stallions then you shouldn't be taking them in.

Geld him like yesterday!!! Find another barn to keep him at until he recovers then bring him back and turn him out with the herd so he can learn to be a horse. THEN, start getting him used to humans again. 

Keeping a horse tied 24/7 is not humane. You are only adding to his stress.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Just watching that video scares the crap out of me. If you decide to push forward with recovery, expect it to be a long and drawn out process that could take years. Even then, I doubt you will ever be able to fully trust him. Gelding him should help. Im sorry to say that if he were my horse, I would try my best and if there wasn't progress in the first few months...he would have to go. Does he only attack when provoked? Was he ever handled?


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## damnedEvans (Jan 23, 2010)

G and K's Mom said:


> I understand that your heart is in the right place........ That said you are not set up to be doing this type of "rescue". If your not set up for stallions then you shouldn't be taking them in.
> 
> Geld him like yesterday!!! Find another barn to keep him at until he recovers then bring him back and turn him out with the herd so he can learn to be a horse. THEN, start getting him used to humans again.
> 
> Keeping a horse tied 24/7 is not humane. You are only adding to his stress.



Yes, you are right. I definitely agree with you on this one. But, not in this circumstances. Considering the circumstances we didn't had a choice. We are the only horse rescue in the country. A country with 22 million people with one single rescue. If we didn't took him he will be dead now. So I guess that being tied until he will get calmer is not such a bad thing. We want to geld him asap but it will be a hard job considering that it will be hard to make him his post operative treatments. But we don't have a choice. So he will be gelded, then we hope that in two or three months he will be calm enough to accept a handler. Hopefully we will be able to turn him out in the arena. In a couple of months he will be calmer. If not, I don't know. We will try our best to rehabilitate the poor animal. I know that the condition aren't great, the trainers aren't what you'll call a trainer, the rescue center doesn't have the condition that you are used to, but it's a different country. And for sure I hate my country when it comes to animal rights or animal care. But we must deal with it. This is the only chance to save this animal. If we sale him or give it away they will beat him more in order to approach him. That's the rule here, when an owner has an aggressive horse he will beat the animal in order to handle him. This is what happened to this one too. 

As a rescue we try to change the things. And we try to give the animals better conditions. In your country this rescue centre won't be approved, because of lack of condition. We do feed our horses and treat them in a nice way, but we don't have the minimum of 10' x 10' stalls, or very big pastures. We have a lot of standing stalls and just a few stalls that are not very big. 


And I really appreciate all the input and advices. So keep them coming. We really try our best to save this poor horse even if we don't have all the conditions. I really think that it's best to give him a chance to a better life.


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## Alicia (Mar 21, 2009)

Is there any way you could build him an enclosure to walk around in, instead of being tied. That alone sounds frustrating for him, and no way to expend all his excess energy.
However sometimes we all have the best intentions and need to work with what we got. 
I would use a sedative to work with the necessary (feet trimming and getting him gelded). Also I would leave him alone and not try touching him just yet. I would have him in an area that has people around alot but noone paying too much attention to him. The idea being him accepting people in his space and them not doing anything with him. I would also have someone (a person) just sitting in the stall next to him (out of harms way). Again this way he gets used to the smell and sight of people without them touching him or getting in his space. Hopefully he will get the idea that people around doesn't have to equal him needing to be aggressive or protective of himself. 
I also agree with Beling - be consistent, feeding at the same time, handling him on the same side, having his food and water at the same location, ect.. Having consistency and a routine may help him feel more stable and safe and his environment then is predictable.
Could you also have a very calm horse or some other animal in a stall close to him for the animal confort and that way he's never alone?
When it comes to touching him I would use a glove tied to a stick or whip (or something to act as an extesion of your arm). That way he can bite and kick that instead of someone possibly getting hurt. I would only do the touching for very short periods of time (5 min a day a couple of times a day or something), and then build on that.
Also, in my opinion, restraining the horse to accept human touch seems a little unnecessary. I think if you work within his comfort zone (using some of the ideas I previously suggested) you will end up with more positive results. 
Best of luck


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## damnedEvans (Jan 23, 2010)

corinowalk said:


> Just watching that video scares the crap out of me. If you decide to push forward with recovery, expect it to be a long and drawn out process that could take years. Even then, I doubt you will ever be able to fully trust him. Gelding him should help. Im sorry to say that if he were my horse, I would try my best and if there wasn't progress in the first few months...he would have to go. Does he only attack when provoked? Was he ever handled?



I'm sure that he was handled. I guess that he was stolen from somebody. In my country the horses are branded only if they come from stud farms. Calin was probably stolen from such a farm by the gypsies and sold him after. I guess that he was dominant and hard to handle so they beat him up in order to calm him down. For sure he was sold numerous times, drugged in order to be sold and so on. This owner purchased him and after 2 days the horse bitten him and then escaped. When we first caught the horse they all came, 5-6 men with forks, metal bars and so on and wanted to kill the horse in front of us. We let the horse escape in order to save his life and then talked with the people and offered us to buy him from them. So we purchased him and after that we tried to catch him again.

So you can imagine how was his life before we purchased him. Is no surprise that he is so aggressive, he has such a strong personality and it's such a dominant horse. 

We know that will be a long way until he will be ok. We don't expect him to be an angel. As I said we only hope that he will calm down in order to be handled safely only by an experienced horseman. We won't sell him, he will become a permanent resident to our rescue center. It's the only solution for now. Maybe he will cooperate with us in time, and maybe he will recover more than we expect. Only time will tell.


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## CanyonCowboy (Apr 30, 2010)

Well, you certainly have a time on your hands. I've worked with the trainer in the below videos. He does a lot of work rehabing rescue horses out here, and I've seen some amazing changes in horses through his work. He has over 200 videos on YouTube, some of which may really help you. The videos about Hawk the Mustang are about getting an untouched mustang to allow touch and ultimately to be rideable. Good luck!

YouTube - david12000000's Channel

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=david12000000#p/u/52/AkoWmQc-Z40


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## G and K's Mom (Jan 11, 2008)

As I said, your heart is in the right place. I understand that conditions in Romania may not be the same as in Canada. 

If your bound a determined to try then get that fellow to stop bugging him and forget putting a bit in his mouth! Just pile the food in front of him and talk to him. Judging by those video's his stress levels are pretty high. Get a chair and sit where you're safe and talk..... read to him.... anything so that he gets it into his head your not going to cause him anymore stress. Don't force yourself on him until he's gelded.

My first concern is that once he's gelded he is not going to be able to move around and that in itself could lead to problems with his recovery. Swelling is often relieved by exercise, how are you going to deal with that?


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## damnedEvans (Jan 23, 2010)

Alicia said:


> Is there any way you could build him an enclosure to walk around in, instead of being tied. That alone sounds frustrating for him, and no way to expend all his excess energy.
> However sometimes we all have the best intentions and need to work with what we got.
> I would use a sedative to work with the necessary (feet trimming and getting him gelded). Also I would leave him alone and not try touching him just yet. I would have him in an area that has people around alot but noone paying too much attention to him. The idea being him accepting people in his space and them not doing anything with him. I would also have someone (a person) just sitting in the stall next to him (out of harms way). Again this way he gets used to the smell and sight of people without them touching him or getting in his space. Hopefully he will get the idea that people around doesn't have to equal him needing to be aggressive or protective of himself.
> I also agree with Beling - be consistent, feeding at the same time, handling him on the same side, having his food and water at the same location, ect.. Having consistency and a routine may help him feel more stable and safe and his environment then is predictable.
> ...


Thank you for your advice. I really like your approach and I think that this will be a way to go. I will try this. The idea with people standing next to him without doing him a thing is great for the moment. Maybe in this way he'll understand that people are not there to beat him up. Unfortunately he can't stand to have a horse near him. He tries his best to kill the other horse, even if the horse is calm and non aggressive. Guess that he's not very used with other horses, or he's very dominant. We have a lot of mares in heat now so maybe he feels their smell and he's very protective with his territory.


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## G and K's Mom (Jan 11, 2008)

Alicia said:


> I would also have someone (a person) just sitting in the stall next to him (out of harms way). Again this way he gets used to the smell and sight of people without them touching him or getting in his space. Hopefully he will get the idea that people around doesn't have to equal him needing to be aggressive or protective of himself.
> 
> Best of luck


We posted at the same time and seem to be on the same wave length....:lol:


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## Alicia (Mar 21, 2009)

well we are Canadian...eh?


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## Alicia (Mar 21, 2009)

Good on you,DamnedEvans, for taking him in and wanting to help him, there are very few of your kind around these days.
Hopefully once you get him gelded, some of these issues will be much easier to work out.
Keep us posted


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## damnedEvans (Jan 23, 2010)

G and K's Mom : Well, we tried to put a bit in his mouth in order to get him used to it. He is definitely used to a bit and with driving, but I don't understand how someone was able to put a bridle on him in a safe way. If he is bridled you have more control over him, a bridle and two people holding him. If he will be gelded that will be the only solution for him to do his daily exercises. We hope that after the gelding operation he will calm down because for now he is aggressive and stressed up because of the mares. I know that even after he will be gelded he will still be aggressive but we hope that not as much as today. 

CanyonCowboy : Oh, I love David Archer. You are very very lucky to had the opportunity to work with him. He has such a great method of working with the horses. I think that the case with Pepper the aggressive horse is similar to Calin's case. And this gives me hope. To bad that we don't have access to such a trainer out here.


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## G and K's Mom (Jan 11, 2008)

Well you sure have your hands full.

PLEASE keep us updated.......


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## 5cuetrain (Dec 11, 2009)

My hats off to you and that young man! I can tell you that The current situation is extremely dangerous for both the human and the horse.The odds are pretty high that one or both will get hurt sooner or later.

If you look at the risks involved and the extremely small chance that this horse will change I don't think the possibility for a good outcome is there.

Gelding him probably won't make much difference in his way of thinking and frankly speaking I don't see the skills required to change things in the young man. He is surely brave and his heart is in the right place but it comes down to experience and expertise and for sure that horse needs a handful of both.

Think about this and make sure that your time, resources and funds are being well spent with this guy. I am sure all of the above are limited and perhaps allocating them to some other horse who has a better chance of adapting to the human world would be more prudent.

If you choose to stay wth it good luck and God bless.


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## damnedEvans (Jan 23, 2010)

5cuetrain : I understand your opinion here, and to some extent I agree with you. The horse is very very dangerous and almost impossible to handle. I don't even want to imagine how it will be if the horse will escape. For this reason we tie the horse with two halters and two lead ropes. The possibility of him being in danger and couldn't escape is smaller than the possibility of him escaping and injure or even kill someone. 

We have an experienced horsemen available, I really trust him to train this horse. The person that is dealing with the horse in the video has a lot of experience but is still young and to brave for his own safety. But he and the other person that I'm talking about are the only one that can handle the horse. With a lot of risks that's true but it's their choice to do so. 

And if you saw some of my posts you will understand that the rescue center is notorious for dealing with hopeless chases. We have a management (administration) that want to be heroic all the time. They are against euthanasia (they agree with it only in limit cases) and they want to give a chance to all the horses. It doesn't depends if their chances of survival or rehabilitation are very limited. And I can't fight with them. I only try to help with what I can, considering that I'm not very experienced myself. And I always try to find second opinions.


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

Kudos for taking him on.

If this were my rescue horse, the first thing I would do would be to geld him.

Do you have rope halters or are they the flat halters? 

I think he has been spoiled and allowed to get away with bloody murder. He has learned that if he throws a fit, he gets his way. He doesn't want a bit? Thats ok, kick and squeal and throw a fit, the bit goes away. The thing I would do would be to push his tolerance level to the edge, then back off, over and over again. 

Lets say you are brushing him. If he gets antsy, stop. Wait a moment, then start again. Keep doing this over and over. Finally it will get to the point where he won't fuss because he will realize you are just going to keep brushing him, and the more he fusses the longer it will take.

It make take a year or 2, but I bet he will turn out good.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Keeping him tied for a while won't hurt him. I wouldn't spend alot of time forcing myself on him and baby talking to him but it probably won't do much harm either. I would have him gelded and then while he was sore and stiff I would handle him extensively. Making him move will help with the swelling as well as getting him a little gentler. He doesn't seem like too bad of a horse to me. He should come around eventually.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

I have seen plenty of stallions that act like that that have never had a hand raised to them. I manage a rescue barn and try to keep everyone's heads on their shoulders instead of in the clouds. Everyone assumes that if a horse is defensive or aggressive, it was because they were mistreated, everyone screams abuse. Neglect I see often, ignorance I see even more often, deliberate abuse through physical actions by a human I can honestly say I see rarely, and it is most commonly through show and track horses. I have also seen plenty of well taken care of show and track horses, but sometimes the drive to compete causes people to do inhumane things.

The best case scenario would be to geld this guy and turn him out, let him figure out how to be a horse. He obviously has no social skills. In the situation that you are in, I agree with Kevin, cut him and leave him alone. Don't give him any reasons to be aggressive, don't react with anything he does, wait until he is actually looking for you. You have to turn the tables on him. I know from experience that the worst thing for the energy of a rescue barn is the feeling of sympathy. The last thing a rescue horse needs is a weak energy from a human, they need someone to say "get over it, you are safe now" and show them leadership and boundaries. For right now, I would say don't give him the time of day besides the necessities that he needs. Sitting and reading a book in his presence is good, because it will put you there as something that he has to get used to and can't shake. Let the place go on about its routine and let him figure out that he is nothing special, just a horse. When he starts getting curious, then just maybe you will give him the luxary of interacting with you.

On another note, I have seen good hearted people take on more that their capablities could handle with horses with both behavioral and physical issues, my answer to this is that there are worse things in life than death.


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

I've had much worse horses here that turned out fine. He wasn't hell bent on murder, he was just trying to get the guy away from him. He stopped when the guy stopped.

I had a TB gelding here that was insane. I am serious- insane. He would beat himself to bits if he was stalled, flinging himself against walls. He broke 2x6 planks with his kicking. If you went near him he would rear and paw and strike out, or if he wasn't close enough he'd run straight at you and attempt to run you over, teeth bared. 

Previously to me taking him, he had been beaten in the head with a 2x4 when he refused to pick up his foot. 

After 2 months of this we had him put to sleep. The vet asked if he could necropsy his brain to see if there was something organic about his behavior- and we agreed. Turns out when he was beaten, he had a skull fracture and bone chips were broken off and went into his brain. Vet said he would have never recovered.


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

Flitterbug, I wholeheartedly agree. Too many times people misinterpret behavior problems for the symptoms of abuse- most "abused" horses at our rescue have been allowed to get away with bloody murder, and are just testing their limits.

We can't save them all. I can try, but I'll go insane myself. I can only choose a certain few at a time, and do the best I can with them.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

draftrider said:


> Lets say you are brushing him. If he gets antsy, stop. Wait a moment, then start again.


That's how you train a horse to misbehave. You should brush until he relaxes or at least stands still then quit.


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## damnedEvans (Jan 23, 2010)

draftrider : We don't have rope halters over here. They are rare to see, he has a flat halter on him and one rope halter but flat also (is made from a lot of ropes that are put togheter to form a flat halter). I know that rope halter will be better for him because it gives you more control. I will try to buy one of this for him. Thank you for the suggestion. And thank you also for the advice. I'm glad to hear that he has some chances to become more easy to handle. 

kevinshorses : thank you a lot Kevin. Today we didn't interact with it all day. We interacted with him only to feed him and water him. He is very very calm in the stall, he doesn't have a problem with being tied. So I guess that he will not be stressed because of this. He will not have a way to spend his energy but for the moment we keep him only on hay. No grain or supplements. We will made an appointment those days to the doctor to come and geld him. This is the only alternative that we have to calm him down, and after this we will work him and train him as you mentioned. 

I'm glad that you don't think that he is extremely aggressive. That's a great thing. I have never seen an horse so aggressive but I don't have a lot of experience with horses. I have only 2 years of working with horses so I didn't saw a lot in 2 years. 

Thank you for the support and advice, really appreciate it. 

draftrider : yes, Calin is not aggressive without a reason. He is aggressive only when he feels intimidated. If you go lonely to him, and treat him in a calm manner he doesn't show many signs of aggression. He only tries to bite you if you want to touch him. But if you keep a distance he doesn't really care about you being there. But if you try to punish him for a bad behavior he freaks out and tries to kill you. Because of this thing we don't know how to handle him. 

But I'm really glad that he does have hope.
And the case of the TB gelding is really interesting. I'm sorry for that poor horse. I didn't knew that they can go insane. It's really great that you chose the right decision. 

FlitterBug : I agree that there can be some stallions with this kind of behavior. But this one was really abused. I know that this is not an excuse to let them escape with that behavior. We really try to not do this. But in the same time we try to not trigger the fear that this horse has for a lot of things. He freaks out when he sees a stick, a crop or a group of people. So we will try to teach him that he doesn't have to be afraid anymore. After he will settle up we will begin his training. Right now when you punish him for something like biting he freaks out and tries to escape from you. That's the problem. We don't know how to put him to respect, how to show him that we don't tolerate his behavior without him freaking out and being scared and very defensive. 


Thank you all for the support. I will keep you updated when he will have an improvement.


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## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

he is so handsome but he is aggressive, i think just because he is scared and he is a stallion so that is his way of dealing with it. i dont think he is a lost cause though, he needs to gain human trust again, he looks in poor condition and maybe associates that with humans.


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## Fluffy Pony (May 2, 2010)

> That's how you train a horse to misbehave. You should brush until he relaxes or at least stands still then quit.


Very good advice. A lot of people don't understand that you should do this instead of stopping. Then they wonder why their horse bites, and flips out when pressure is put on them.


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## Alicia (Mar 21, 2009)

damnedEvans said:


> He is aggressive only when he feels intimidated. If you go lonely to him, and treat him in a calm manner he doesn't show many signs of aggression. He only tries to bite you if you want to touch him. But if you keep a distance he doesn't really care about you being there. But if you try to punish him for a bad behavior he freaks out and tries to kill you. .


To me this sounds very promising.
You have something to work with - you can be near him and he doesn't lash out - you could build on this (in time).
I still think you should leave him alone for a couple of days, just doing your regular daily routine around him. Letting him get used to his new environment, people and noises. And also having someone near him but not doing anything to him. After a couple of days you could use the technique I suggested before - using a stick or something as an extension of your arm, and getting him used to just being touched. Doing everything slowly and calmly. I don't think I would push him too much or too long, keep it short and simple, then leave him alone.

Good luck, and I think you have a good chance of bringing him around.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

As I read this story I feel empathy for the animal and strong dislike for those that have made him behave in this fashion. This horse doesn’t just fear humans he hates them and perhaps for good reason. I watched the videos and saw a nice looking but powerful horse who has spirit and no doubt intelligence. I realized that in the UK there would have to be something really special about him otherwise we would probably have put him down as being too dangerous for our society. At the very least he would have been gelded immediately.

The human has got to come to trust the animal not to try to injure the human - which the horse so easily can do and likewise, the horse has got to trust that the human not to kill him - which he knows by instinct that the human can so easily do. This horse will never ever forget his past ill treatment from other humans and for that reason alone he will never ever be completely trustworthy. 

Whilst mulling over the problems presented by this horse, I came to think that maybe an attempt by one organisation to re-educate such a horse might become an example for fellow countrymen to follow. I have been led to believe that Bulgaria has many such hurdles to climb. 
Maybe I can add a few suggestions to those already expressed by the other contributors.

If the animal were delivered to me in the UK, then I’d create for the horse a one acre secure grassy paddock in which I would build a field shelter. It would become his home and his prison too, but he would be safe. The horse would never ever be chastised in this arena, it would be his domaine. The surface would be kept clear of dung. Over the months he’d be fed, handled and schooled in this small paddock. In this environment he’d have shelter, security, food & freedom from fear or stress. Carefully managed with electric fencing, a horse can survive through the year on one acre of grassland. 

Each day, as part of a regular routine, I’d pad myself up with protective gear and I would try to persuade him to allow me willingly into his domain. I’d use food, routine and familiarity to achieve this aim. The horse would be fed twice daily throughout the year with chaff, fruit, vegetables and oil. He’d have access to a salt block and a vitamin lick. I’d look for something he desired enough to tolerate my presence and then I’d use it as a bribe. The horse would be free to hear the birds and to breathe fresh air and to listen to the sounds of the countryside. He would be free to canter. I’d affix a lightweight rope halter but otherwise he’d run loose in the field and it would be my task to catch him to affix a lead rope - an act to which he must eventually come to willingly submit. That might take time but eventual submission would indicate some level of trust. Until he came to trust me, I could neither do, nor attempt to do, anything with him. He would come to recognise me by sight, sound, smell, touch, footfall and routine.
I’d forget bits, I’d use a rope training halter which worked on the nose and the poll. I’d forget saddles - there is no way I would even expect to ride this creature for a couple of years. Bits and saddles are things maybe for the future. Horse tack can be bought over the Internet from ‘Rideaway’ for posting to Bulgaria.
My immediate aim would be to get him to allow me to touch him - first with my hands and then with hand and brush, then eventually to fit a halter with a lead rope attached. In return I would have to trust him enough to put myself within touching, kicking or biting distance. Undoubtedly I would have to think he is worth the effort and the significant risk to my personal well being. I’d need to like the horse so as to be able to forgive him. 

The only discipline available to me would be my voice, plus gestures, and maybe a pointed finger. A lunging whip and a riding crop I might from time to time use but never with the idea of actually touching the horse. The horse would have to learn the boundary lines of acceptable and unacceptable behaviour but any physical chastisement or undue restraint would be out of the question. It would be counter productive. Progress might well be slow but I would build slowly on slow progress. Only persistent patient perseverance works on a mentally damaged horse.

Sadly from your postings, I read that you have not got the acre of grassland. Without it I cannot see how you can cope. To tie up such a horse constantly in a stall would probably introduce other problems in such a horse but neither can you let it run with the other horses. The Spaniards do confine their breeding Andalusian stallions but they have not been mistreated.
I wish you luck - it seems to be a daunting prospect you are attempting.

Have you thought of approaching the International Horse Protection & Welfare Societies for funding?


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Keeping him tied for a while won't hurt him. I wouldn't spend alot of time forcing myself on him and baby talking to him but it probably won't do much harm either. I would have him gelded and then while he was sore and stiff I would handle him extensively. Making him move will help with the swelling as well as getting him a little gentler. He doesn't seem like too bad of a horse to me. He should come around eventually.


I'm with Kevin on this (I know, wow, actually agreeing). I don't think the horse is beyond help by a long shot. I think you might eventually get a pretty nice horse out of it in the end. I disagree with those saying he needs a pen etc, keeping him tied I think is a good thing right now. Get him gelded, and get in there to work with him a lot while he is recovering. He'll need walked while he is recovering and this is the time to get in there, while he doesn't have a whole lot of fight due to his surgery. Make sure all his food is hand fed to him. (By this I DON'T literally mean by hand - I mean, don't throw piles of hay in there and keep away. Hold the buckets, hold the feeders and offer to him. Get him used to the idea that good things come from people too. ) Get one person or two people only - preferably your top two most experienced horsemen, to handle him and keep everyone else backed off for a while while the horse is still so reactive. Good luck with him and please keep us posted!


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## danielle1214n (Jun 8, 2010)

That horse is beautiful, its such a shame that he has issues with people. To start off with, you need to find out if he has a preference with male or female. For example i have an arabian, and he like women more then men. Haveing strapped to the metal pole is not good, he feels like he is going to be hurt, because he is forced to stand there. Like the women earlier said, put him in a round pin, with some sort of shelter. One person, and i mean only one person, needs to come and feed him, and eventually try and brush him off or something. Your stallion does not trust humans, and not just any human will probably ever be able to ride him, the main thing this horse needs is trust, he will not develop any trust for that man in the video. I recommend that a women try and do what i said, women are more sensetive, and horses can feel that kind of stuff.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

danielle1214n said:


> That horse is beautiful, its such a shame that he has issues with people. To start off with, you need to find out if he has a preference with male or female. For example i have an arabian, and he like women more then men. Haveing strapped to the metal pole is not good, he feels like he is going to be hurt, because he is forced to stand there. Like the women earlier said, put him in a round pin, with some sort of shelter. One person, and i mean only one person, needs to come and feed him, and eventually try and brush him off or something. Your stallion does not trust humans, and not just any human will probably ever be able to ride him, the main thing this horse needs is trust, he will not develop any trust for that man in the video. I recommend that a women try and do what i said, women are more sensetive, and horses can feel that kind of stuff.


I know that this is your first post and I don't want you to feel like I'm picking on you but this is not good advice. Horses don't care about male and female as much as they care about how you handle them. Tying him is also not going to bother him much after a while and will probably be good for him in the long run. Before you develop trust you must develop respect and you can't get that without handling the horse consistently. I don't know how many peope have brought me horses to train that "prefer women". What the horse prefers is someone that requires very little from them regardless of gender. Unfortunately for the horse what it prefers is of little consequence to me until the horse is safe to handle and ride and even then only in the context of accomplishing what I need to. I set the horse up to succeed and then get out of the way but the horse must perform.


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Geld him yesterday, if that's what it takes to give him a life as a horse. 

He is a very typical, non-socialized stallion. I've seen a few of them, these are horses who were used only for stud. None that I know have ever been beaten, but nor have they been given a chance to every just be a horse. 

A stallion is a horse first, and stallion second. He has the same needs, physical and mental as any other horse, the difference is he also has testosterone. 

The second thing I'd change is the person working with him. Either this guy needs to learn how to change his body language, or you need to start with someone who this horse hasn't scared. 

In each video clip the human is inviting the horse into his space, simply by the way he's holding his body and stepping away from the horse (not that I blame him much at this point...but still, it IS a factor in this horse's behavior). If the human won't be the leader the horse needs, the horse WILL take over that position, and it WILL become dangerous. The people working with this horse will need to understand they HAVE to be strong (mentally), confident and make themselves big. 

Stallions will submit to larger, faster, stronger stallions - this means a human handling a stallion needs to convince him that they are all of those things. If they can't do that, they need to stay away. 

This is not a mean horse. Contrary to the way he's behaving at the moment, he's actually only behaving as is natural for him. Given a different, fearless way of handling him, and some space to not feel trapped, he will come around very quickly. 

In order for that to happen though, he needs the ability to move around. It sounds like, for you guys, that means sedating him, gelding him and getting it done soon. 

As far as I'm concerned there's no 'time limit' on how much time should or should not be spent with a horse like this, it's ALL about the kind of handling you do. 

Before you put a bit in this horse's mouth, he needs to be able to trust. I've worked with worse horses without a bit in their mouth - a 22' line, rope halter, and a pair of good gloves were all that were needed. 

Check out Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling on YouTube for an alternative way of handling aggressive horses, he has a few case studies there to look at. One is a Breton stallion which hasn't been out of his stall for years due to his unmanagable temperment.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

I have often wondered how a horse tells that a male is a man and a women is a female.

I assume that most of our readers do not go out and handle their horses stark naked.

But even if they did how could a horse tell?

Now I started to write the answer to this question and then I decided I could not put the words together polite enough for this forum - so I erased what I was thinking but had not yet written. Young innocent souls are safe.

But come on ladies tell me how my mare knows I am a male and I have never taken a shower with her, even when I was hosing her down.


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## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

Honestly...geld him, let his hormone levels boil down. Being a stallion does not equal aggression, but being a stallion can make aggression if the stallion in question is mishandled and not socialized. Frankly, I get the feeling, although it is possible he HAS been seriously abused, that he is just a stallion who has had little and/or bad handling. He feels threatened, as is obvious. You said also you have mares in heat...this is only fueling his frustration and aggression.

Of course, gelding him will not solve the problem entirely. He will still remember what ever bad experiences or lack of experiences perhaps even, that cause his fear and aggression. On the other hand, I have seen some stallions who turned into totally different horses after they were gelded. Some didn't change a bit. Hopefully it will calm this horse to a point where he can have more focus and peace. Like I said - the mares in heat are probably making him hot-headed and frustrated all the more.

I would let his system "clear", and just do as others have said. For quite a while, just feed and water him, and only do necessary maintenance. Let him make the choice to allow you into his space. Usually that's backwards advice, but you don't want to force yourself upon him. Give him a treat and praise him if and when he shows positive interest in humans. Take it slow, one step at a time. If he seems tense, back off. If he seems placid, take advantage and go forward with caution.

You have a blank canvas with this horse, really. I have seen worse cases turned around. Patience, wisdom and kindness could make this horse suitable for riding way down the road. Once he gets into his brain that humans mean good things, his attitude could change entirely. Once he learns the key thing: Humans mean good things, but humans are dominate creatures, and he has to respect them - when he behaves and trusts them, the good things will happen.

Keep us updated! I really like this horse, for some reason. I wish you the best and I pray he will come around. What a waste of a lovely creature if not!


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Barry - the answer is not nearly as complicated or graphic as one might think.

Men and women smell different (different hormones produce different smells... most animals can tell the difference that way) and act different (like it or not there is a different bearing between a man and a woman in MOST cases). The horse is an extremely sentient being... meaning it exists and survives by how in tune it is with it's world. Much of what the horse reacts to is not at all related to what the horse SEES (in fact the horse doesn't see things like people do at all, I really believe this), the horse goes through life relying much more on it's other senses, especially sound and smell.... but they also seem to have the ability to FEEL energy shifts, which opens up a whole world of new information for them. (and this is how they can tell exactly how you're feeling in any given moment, the fear, the joy, the anger etc. they "see" it all, there is nothing you can hide from your horse) 

I think that explaination is pretty easy on young ears/eyes and minds? It's a really important thing to understand too.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Unicorn
I don't honestly believe that my mare does not see me as a male, in the sense that a female human sees a male human as male. 
When push comes to shove it doesn't matter as long as there are not two pushers or two shovers.

Smell yes, I agree my mare senses me, she doesn't see me necessarily, she senses me by my smell, my touch, my familiarity. She doesn't see me as a male,
she has no expectation of wanting to mate with me, she senses I am her friend
whom she can trust not to abuse the trust she places in me, by her allowing me to come close. And whilst I am close, she does not expect me to be violent or coarse or aggressive. We merely have to enjoy the company of eachother. 
B G


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

I get what you both are getting at, here, Barry and Unicorn. Do I believe a horse can distinguish between a male and female handler? Certainly. Do I believe they care? No.

I think the concept of gender preference in animals is a form of anthropomorphism. I think they see humans as handlers/riders/etc, and I have my doubts about them having any preference in terms of sex for their handlers. I have also seen people make the statement about dogs who have been abused, having a preference for women, and seen them proven them wrong again and again. Horses that have been abused respond more readily to softer treatment, softer voices, calmer demeanor, traits that _SOMETIMES_ (certainly not always!) comes more readily to female handlers, and that I think is where the assumption comes from. But I have seen a great number of male handlers, both in the horse and dog world, who are just as capable of approaching a troubled animal calmly and quietly, as any female handler, and horses respond the same way. It is not a true gender preference. I don't think horses distinguish in that way. It is a manner preference, regardless of sex.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I think it's the "attitude" a person comes with that causes the reputation of horses not liking men. In other words, if a man comes off as aggressive or very dominant, then certain horses can react in certain ways. Not because of the gender of the person, but the dominance level they project. That's my theory anyway. A horse could react negatively to an overly dominant woman too, and react well to a man that is more calm and collected. A good horseman (of either gender) really should be calm and collected emotionally.

But the reason I have this theory is that I was given a horse that "hates men" and he did great with my father and my friend's boyfriend. Both of these men are not super experienced riders, but would listen to direction and the horse did great for them. On the other hand, I let another male friend ride the horse and the horse was clearly nervous and intimidated of the rider. He was a good rider, but more of an assertive horseman. 

I really thing the stallion in question is being pushed to the point of being aggressive, sort of like a fear-biting dog. Yes, you need to work with him, halter him and move him around, etc., but I wouldn't force "love" onto the horse because he feels like he needs to defend himself. I think he needs to be worked with right up to the point of defending himself, but not pushed into defending himself. I really don't think he WANTS to be aggressive, but is extremely defensive. The reason I say that, is there is one point in one of the videos where the guy is touching the horse and the horse is biting on the metal pipe. To me, that means the horse really doesn't want to lash out at humans, or at the very least he knows he will get into trouble for it, so he takes the frustration out on the pipe instead. I think the poor horse is extremely defensive. I would probably try the bucket of food approach, letting him know humans can be the bringers of good things before I really asked a lot of the horse. And geld him too of course. But do not profess to be a horse trainer or have any experience in this area.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Indyhorse;. Horses that have been abused respond more readily to softer treatment said:


> Yes I agree completely.
> 
> But as you say - that a horse can smell that human males are different from human females makes absolutely no difference to the horse. I cannot believe either that the ethnicity of the human make any difference.
> 
> ...


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

The argument that a horse can smell the pheremones of a human man or woman is a weak argument at best. Pheremones are a biological trigger within a species to trigger a reaction. Other species are not very in tune to another species hormones.


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## beauforever23 (May 6, 2010)

Like everyone else has said I am very uncomfortable with the restraints this horse is in. I would say put him in a stall because your probably just scaring him a lot more. Stallions are hard to deal with i understand. He is a very gorgeous horse. I can be of some assistance if you need to PM me. good luck with him.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

There is another issue.

My own mare has nothing to fear from me. So if she can indeed smell my mental attitude towards her then she is smelling my trust in her. 

But there was a horse on the yard some years ago that I did fear. He I would not go near and in my opinion he should have been put down. He was one of those horses who came at you, teeth bared. Over his stable door he was expecting you to come back at him and then he would come back again immediately when he thought you weren't ready for him. He was intent on biting you.

His owner defended him, saying it was not his fault and that he had been badly treated. To her credit eventually she found him a home - he was a good jumper. 

But to me he was a constant danger to anyone else who came within his reach. Towards him I accept my 'pheramones' were negative. He was right to have feared me but it was his choice, not mine. 
He was not my horse so it was appropriate for me to stay clear. 

I don;t think my sex had anything to do with his attiude towards me - he nipped my wife, he never nipped me

B G


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Barry Godden said:


> Unicorn
> I don't honestly believe that my mare does not see me as a male, in the sense that a female human sees a male human as male.
> When push comes to shove it doesn't matter as long as there are not two pushers or two shovers.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I should have been clearer. 
They CAN tell the difference between male and female, I'm sure of it, which is what I thought you were struggling with describing. I don't believe, for one second, that it matters to them.

The horse will always respond or react to the energy of it's human handler (or the other horses in it's herd etc.). Whether that energy comes from a male or female it doesn't really matter to the horse.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

T
The horse will always respond or react to the energy of it's human handler (or the other horses in it's herd etc.). Whether that energy comes from a male or female it doesn't really matter to the horse.[/QUOTE said:


> I agree entirely


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

beauforever23 said:


> Like everyone else has said I am very uncomfortable with the restraints this horse is in. I would say put him in a stall because your probably just scaring him a lot more. Stallions are hard to deal with i understand. He is a very gorgeous horse. I can be of some assistance if you need to PM me. good luck with him.


 
Sorry Beau, not to get testy, but not EVERYONE is uncomfortable with the restraint. Some of us actually feel that it is best. Frankly, I am baffled by just where some of you would like to put him if he was untied? Do you honestly think a stall would hold him? That he wouldn't soon kick through and most likely injure himself? And as for a pen-that most likely won't work either. I have seen my share of horses jump or break through fences, and frankly, one of the scariest times I have had with my personal horses was watching helplessly as one of my new horses went nuts (I was helplessly standing there-no whip) and jumped out of a round pen entangling his legs in the gate. (he was ok, but has found a new home ) Believe me-he is best off (for all concerned) tied. Kevin is right-respect comes before trust.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I don't profess to be a trainer either, so take this for what its worth. He doesn't seem that bad. Not that I would want to be the one working with him though. 
It seems like considering your circumstances, that keeping him tied is the best thing for both of you. Ideally, I'ld stick him in a round pen & that would be his home & work place for a while.
I agree with Kevinshorse. I would just work with him little by little until he accepts you. Small things like touching him, then eventually brushing. etc.. Pressure then release. Instead of punishing his bad behavior, reward his good behavior. 
Its going to take a lot of time, but possible.
Best of luck. You are braver than I am.


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## damnedEvans (Jan 23, 2010)

First of all thank you a lot for all the opinions. I read all of them and they are very useful for my experience and knowledge. 
I'm sorry for my long absence but I had a lot of exams and not to much time. And sorry for not being able to respond to all the answers. 

And now the news.

Calin had been gelded a week ago. And 2 days ago we tried him under saddle. He was very calm after the operation. I mean, after some handling he began to accept a man near him without trying to bite. I don't know if it's just because he was in pain after the operation or because he got used to the handler or the routine. He is still very unpredictable but he is calmer. 

I will put a video with him first time under saddle. I don't know if he has started earlier in his life, but he is surely used with a bit in his mouth. 
And we used a pellham just for a better control. I know that it's not ok to use a hard device just for a better control. I know that ideal is to use a snaffle first and train the horse to listen to the snaffle before putting a harder bit in his mouth. But they decided that it will be safer to use a pelham just in case. to have a better control if the horse will freak out. 

I can say that he was very calm when we put the bridle on and the saddle. I was amazed by his reaction.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Well, I have to admit, that the handler with this "extremely aggressive horse" was shirtless in flip flops threw me a bit, but Calin looks like he has certainly been rode before - what a turn around! Good to see!


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## damnedEvans (Jan 23, 2010)

Indyhorse said:


> Well, I have to admit, that the handler with this "extremely aggressive horse" was shirtless in flip flops threw me a bit, but Calin looks like he has certainly been rode before - what a turn around! Good to see!


yeah :lol: proper clothing while handling a horse. It was an extremely hot day though... Calin behavior amazed me anyway. Hope he will be the same after some time when the pain from the operation will go. Then he will buck without any pain, no he was able just to lift a foot.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

My mare is also dapple grey with a black mane.

She'd have that bloke off her back in twinkling of an eye

B G

PS The horse needs feeding - its bones are sticking out.


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## damnedEvans (Jan 23, 2010)

Barry Godden said:


> My mare is also dapple grey with a black mane.
> 
> She'd have that bloke off her back in twinkling of an eye
> 
> ...




dapple grays with black mane and tail are gorgeous. 
and he is fed, he will put weight in a month or two. But he is not to thin either. he need some more pounds and a lot of muscle.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

My kids ride rougher horses than that. I think the horse will come along quite well with good consistent handling. The guy riding him doesn't seem to be much of a horseman and a bit of a showoff so I hope that he isn't your expert horseman. He seems to have been broke to ride at some point in his life so the best thing to do would be to ride him every day so that he is used to being ridden when the pain and stiffness goes away. If he had been my horse I would have given him one day to recover and ridden him a little every day since.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> My kids ride rougher horses than that. I think the horse will come along quite well with good consistent handling. The guy riding him doesn't seem to be much of a horseman and a bit of a showoff so I hope that he isn't your expert horseman. He seems to have been broke to ride at some point in his life so the best thing to do would be to ride him every day so that he is used to being ridden when the pain and stiffness goes away. If he had been my horse I would have given him one day to recover and ridden him a little every day since.



I agree, I wasn't impressed by the rider but I thought the horse didn't look bad at all, and 5 days out of surgery he should be coming up good so he's doing really well for a first time. 

He doesn't look as much like an arab now that he is cleaned up though! (he looks great)

I don't think he looks horribly underweight, either, could use more muscle, like you said.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Good news! But do make sure you are prepared for him to "relapse" as he feels better. Hopefully he has remembered that people can also be good to him. : )


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

damnedEvans said:


> First of all thank you a lot for all the opinions. I read all of them and they are very useful for my experience and knowledge.
> I'm sorry for my long absence but I had a lot of exams and not to much time. And sorry for not being able to respond to all the answers.
> 
> And now the news.
> ...


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## upupandflyaway1 (May 10, 2010)

kiwigirl said:


> damnedEvans said:
> 
> 
> > First of all thank you a lot for all the opinions. I read all of them and they are very useful for my experience and knowledge.
> ...


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## ISAgirl (Feb 22, 2010)

Hes so beautiful. I don't believe he is a hopeless case, just treat him well and get some experienced help 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Kiwi pleased to see you back. 

Please introduce "Him Indoors" - seems there are two of you.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Barry Godden said:


> Kiwi pleased to see you back.
> 
> Please introduce "Him Indoors" - seems there are two of you.


 Hi Barry, sorry I'm not understanding your reference...."Him Indoors"?


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## damnedEvans (Jan 23, 2010)

kevinshorses : the horse will be ridden every day to get him used to it and to do his daily exercises. And I agree with you that some horses can be rougher but this is the only case like this that I saw. For me he seems to be a very rough horse. Thank you. 

kiwigirl : Well, what can I say here. I appreciate your opinion and respect it. But you see things from a different point of view. I asked for opinions just because I really want to become more knowledged on horses, to know how to proper treat a horse and how to handle him in a proper manner. Here in my country we don't have very experienced people when it comes to horses. We do have a lot of horses but they are not treated in an exemplar manner. All the horsemen and trainers had learned from themselves and not from somebody with a qualification. The man on the horse is the only one available that wanted to test the horse. I really respect him and I learned a lot from him when it comes to handling horses. But I must admit that his way of riding is very rough and not exactly correct. I never saw him being thrown off a horse either and he worked with some dangerous ones. 
And I never said that his rehabilitation is complete. The rehabilitation will be complete only when the horse will not be so unpredictable. When Calin will be calmer in a lot of situations and not a horse that you are afraid to approach. 
I don't think that the way we are handling horses is barbarous but I agree that it's not exemplar either. I can see the situation from your point of view too but you are speaking from a point of view that it's not available right now in this place. We don't have proper horsemen to teach this horse by your methods. So we must make what we can with the available resources. 
It is easy to say to teach the horse respect and proper behavior but when you don't have the proper resources you must use what you have. The man on the horse is not an exemplar horsemen, he isn't a horsemen from some points of view but he is the only one that took the risks to handle the horse. You could say that maybe we shouldn't take the horse if we couldn't handle it. But we have a lot of cases that you would say not to take them. But we are the only horse shelter in the country and from this position believe me that you'll try to save every horse that comes to you. 

Thank you all for the replies, they are very helpful.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Hey DamnedEvans, thanks for your post. I do apologize I can be hot headed and that video really did wind me up. Please do not think that I believe that your handling of that or any horse is barbarous. What ripped my undies was the riders attitude more than anything else. I understand that while he may be the only one willing to handle the horse that still begs the question, should he be doing so? Just because someone is willing to get on the back of that horse does not neccessarily mean that he is the right person for the job. Expedience does not guarantee success.

I do not mean to be argumentative ( although I know I am being so) it just seems that if a horse is fragile and untrusting of people, putting a ham-fisted egoist, sending conflicting signals, creating confusion and frustration, on to his back might not be the best course of action. 

Please accept that I don't know the full circmstances that you are in, maybe you are only able to keep a horse for a limited time before it has to be moved on. I don't know. I know that you have limited resources/facilities, however a lot can be achieved with a 20 ft line and a space to use it. I have never had a arena, round pen, stall, stable or loose box in my life. I have managed to break in a young horse using a cattle holding yard and a 12 ft rope. Ok granted she didn't have your guys issues but I am sure the basic premise is very similar.

Look, you can see that Carlin has been broken to be ridden. You now know the fundamentals are in place, he was amazingly calm even with that dude on him. This is only my opinion please feel free to ignore me! I believe that ground work with firmness and direction will go a lot further to dealing with Carlin's trust issues than letting whats-his-name ride him.


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## damnedEvans (Jan 23, 2010)

kiwigirl said:


> Hey DamnedEvans, thanks for your post. I do apologize I can be hot headed and that video really did wind me up. Please do not think that I believe that your handling of that or any horse is barbarous. What ripped my undies was the riders attitude more than anything else. I understand that while he may be the only one willing to handle the horse that still begs the question, should he be doing so? Just because someone is willing to get on the back of that horse does not neccessarily mean that he is the right person for the job. Expedience does not guarantee success.
> 
> I do not mean to be argumentative ( although I know I am being so) it just seems that if a horse is fragile and untrusting of people, putting a ham-fisted egoist, sending conflicting signals, creating confusion and frustration, on to his back might not be the best course of action.
> 
> ...



yes, ground work will be a way to go. I really agree that the horse needs ground work. But you know what's strange? I never ever saw one horsemen from here do ground work. I don't know why, maybe they don't use this method, maybe they don't understand it. They do lunge the horse but they do this not because they want to gain the horses respect, to move their feet or something, they do lunge work because the horse needs to be calmed down before a ride session. I never seen someone to do ground work with a horse like Clinton Anderson for example, or like others like him. Here you just put the saddle on a horse and put there a person that can hold himself. In this manner the horse can see that even if he bucks or rear this is not a method to throw off the thing that it's on him. And I speak about all the horsemen. I saw all the experienced horsemen and so called trainers from here and I can tell you that they use only this method. 
I learned a lot of things that I know from the forum. I had a hard time understanding the different methods that you're using here. But now I understand all the things but I know them only theoretical. I can't take the horse and do ground work with him even if I know the basic principles and I understand the way it works. I lack the experience. And all our trainers and horsemen are working with different methods. That's the way to go here. I don't have the power to change the things. 
All I can do is ask for opinions and try to explain them to the ones that have experience to apply them. And as I said I find very useful things to learn from here, I find some wonderful opinions that will be helpful to me when I'll have my own horse in the future. 
So thank you for your sincere opinion.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Evans
A long dead horse lecturer called Fort Paillard, a Frenchman who lived in the US, wrote about CALMNESS in a horse. Calmness is one of the essential conditions a horse need to reach to be receptive to training. A horse can only be CALM if it feels: contented, confident, relaxed, and is free from stress and fear. Perhaps above all that the horse be willing to trust its rider or handler. Horseman's aim should be to help a horse attain a state of Calmness and to keep the horse CALM under all conditions.

If a distressed horse is brought onto your yard - as was the case with the horse which is the subject of this thread - the first thing to be done is to induce a feeling CALM in the animal by immediately removing all of the outside pressures.

To attack man, your Horse showed spirit and courage - characteristics that no man can give a horse but which man can crush and with it the spirit of the horse. Spaniards rarely castrate their Andalusian stallions but they do spend a lot of time in training the youngsters in time honoured methods. The fundamental secret of Spanish male riders is that they aim to keep their horses Calm at all times - even in the presence of mares. Spaniards sit still in the saddle. They are relaxed. They keep control. The horse is their servile companion. It is a disgrace for a man's horse to misbehave in public - yet they feel confident take them along to parades in village fiestas.

From the photos and videos I would have been nervous about letting the young man sit my own horse - she would not have understood his personality. She would have discarded him from her back; yet her temperament is divine and she is always calm in my presence. Eventually I might have let the man ride her but only after I had shown him the basic principles behind riding a powerful, sensitive, sharp, Irish mare.

From the video he comes over as an exhuberant and boisterous man - he obviously likes horses and as you say he is prepared to risk his neck when others would have hestiated. But with a newly castrated gelding he must behave with sensitivity when around an animal whose body and mind is going through a biological change. In due course the horse's testosterone levels will drop away and as the levels fall so will the personality of the horse change.
Hopefully his courage will not have disappeared with his 'cojones'.

Here in the UK, a nation with a horse tradition going back to pre Roman times, there are numerous places where the young man can learn to handle a distressed horse. I accept that in Roumania that may not be the case. In Britain the welfare of the horse is underwritten by a strong horsey culture. and horses are given animal rights under the Law. I do sincerely hope you can plant the seeds of a similar attitude in your country.

Your written English is almost perfect but if in what I have written here there are sentiments you cannot quite comprehend then please let me know.

Most of us on the Forum wish you well with your project. We hope your 'dependent' -'the Horse who lost his manhood'- does well in your care.

B G


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

damnedEvans - I always try to keep in mind cultural differences and your location when I read your posts. Your english is excellent and I think perhaps some people don't realize or forget you are not in a part of the world where horse help and experience is readily available. I believe you are the ONE and ONLY horse rescue in your country, am I right? I can't imagine you are tremendously well funded. I think you guys are working very hard to do all you can with the limited means that you have - and the fact that you come on this forum, eager to learn, open minded, and accept often openly rude criticism, in a calm and polite manner says loads about you, to me. You are a very good person.

That being said, while I do disagree with and cringe at the rider's treatment of the horse, it is hardy uncommon. I can understand, after seeing the first video, how the majority of your help would not be willing to guinea pig and be the first ones to get on this horse! Maybe a few people should put that in perspective, I think there are probably only a few of us on here that would have been willing to take that rider's place. First time out, handling a horse like that confidently, or perhaps even over-confidently, might well have been a necessity. We don't see the full picture from just two short video clips, and people here are quick to judge. 

I don't believe the rider was kicking and yanking out of stupidity, I do think he was trying to encourage the horse to buck, to "get it out of his system". While not a method I agree with, there are many "old cowboy" types in _this_ country who still believe this is the best way to break a horse.

Watching this video, I see a training method I disagree with. I don't see anything abusive. I don't see anything that isn't still done in the more rural areas of this country. And I don't think it's going to "ruin" the horse - especially as I believe it's fairly obvious this is not the first time the horse was backed. Calin might develop a clear dislike for that particular rider - but as far as a first time on his back, to see what he's really made of, I don't think you guys have done something terrible either. 

I would recommend a gentler bit and softer riding in the future - I don't think that horse needs to be "cowboyed".


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## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

I agree with IndyHorse - we have to realize and remember this is an entirely different world than our "cushy" horse world in say, the US, Canada, England, ect. I believe the OP is doing the very best they can and their intentions are good. With limited funds and resources, I commend them for reaching out and trying to get the opinions of others on this forum.

I'm glad there is progress with the horse. In this case, whether everything is perfect or not is really not important - the fact that things seem to be moving forward for this horse IS what's important. I'm very glad that the gelding seemed to be a huge help for him...I suspected that it might.

DamnedEvans, I really have to commend you for your patience and dedication to helping this horse the best way you can in the situation!


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

I haven't visited this thread in a while and am very pleased at how this is turning out. While I agree that the man in the video isn't gonna win any awards for horseman of the year, He didn't seem blatently abusive. If thats abuse, you should see what goes on at a lesson for 9 year olds. Lots of pulling and kicking! I think the little bucking that he did were more in response to 'hey, i CANT trot buddy, i just had my manhood cut off!' than they were nasty. And while groundwork can be the key for some horses, eventually you have to just get on and see whats going on. Im glad to see that he has made good progress in the few weeks that you have had him and I wish you success in the future. He seems to be a pretty willing mount and accepting a rider is a huge step.


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## damnedEvans (Jan 23, 2010)

Barry Godden : Thank you for your response. I agree with you about the calmness theory. A horse should be confident, relaxed and free for fear first, and after that you can have a calm horse. If the horse is not used to his surroundings, with the people around him or with his situation he can't be calm. But I'm expecting that with time he will be calmer than now. In the period that we had him he made a lot of improvements. He was very scared a few days after the chasing when his former owners tried to catch him. I saw the video. He has chased in an open field by a group of 6 or more people with sticks and forks and the poor horse tried to protect his mare. He had a mare in the same field with him so he was acting protective towards her. When we brought him home he was very scared and defensive a couple of days, and very aggressive. He is still aggressive but not to that extent. 
The spaniards had a great method of working with horses but they had a lot of experience, they had an entire culture for the horse. 
And I understand very well english, so I don't had any problem in understanding your response. I know what you wanted to say and I agree. But we must act in regards with the circumstances. Thank you. 

Indyhorse : thank you for your response. I rarely see people that can understand the situation from another country with a different horse culture and methods. When I post here I have a hesitation, I know that some people will blame us and what we do because they see that we don't have big stalls, or exemplary trainers, or great medical care for the horses. I have a lot of moments when I don't really agree with all the things. But I know that difficulties are present everywhere. We have a lot of difficulties and a lot of incapable people around here. A lot of incapable people are in the management department. Our horsemen are not very good but they have a lot of love for the horses. The bad thing with them is that they have no qualification, they learned all by themselves and they do all they can for the horses. 
I know that the situation can be a lot different, that the things can really improve but I don't have the power to change the things. I'm just volunteering there and I make all that I can for the horses. But I don't take the decisions, I can only give advices and some help where I can. If I had my own horse shelter I would make things different but for the moment I try to accept the circumstances. 
And indeed, we are the only horse shelter from the country. We can't take all the horses, or the ones that are at a long distance from us. The horses that we don't take are left to die. So we try to take all the cases. 
I think that we will use a snaffle soon because the horses seems to be ok with the rider. He is not acting in a violent manner so it will be safe with a snaffle in his mouth. 

Thank you a lot. Really appreciate it. 

DressageIsToDance: I really wish to live in another country where horses are important not just because they are agricultural tools like here. But I believe that things will be different in the future. I see some improvements already so who knows. Thank you for the support, really appreciate it. 

corinowalk: Thank you for the support and response. As I said I agree that the man on the horse isn't a great rider but he is doing fine with the horses. He is rough with them but the horses are really respectful towards him. He uses only his voice to control them, I rarely see him using force.


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

I just wanted to say- you would have been better off using a snaffle. A pelham really doesn't give you any more control in my opinion, less in fact at times because you don't have the real ablility to direct rein. In a green horse I will always use a french link or my copper full cheek snaffle just because I can direct rein and turn the horse better until they learn leg commands. 

This little guy is going to make a person a very nice horse. Wish I had the money, I'd adopt him myself and ship him here! =) He is gorgeous and a nice mover even though he is obviously swollen up from the gelding.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Please, I really want to reiterate that I never used the word Abuse. I do not for a minute think that anyone of those men were abusing the horse. I don't think the guy riding the horse was abusive. I think he is an uneducated rider and it surprised me that for all the worry on behalf of the horse it seemed as if the priority was to get someone on its back regardless.

I have to be completely honest, my knee jerk reaction wasn't to the treatment of the horse so much as the fact that the macho rider attitude struck a sour note with me. The guy on the vids, mannerisms, demeanor, body language (basically everything) reminded me of another man that I know. The man I knew also fancied himself as great 'cowboy' and I had to stand by helplessly for years watching him destroy horse after horse (in two cases I mean it literally - on two seperate occassions two horses that he was breaking in hung themselves by the rope he had around their necks "to get used to it"). The man I knew had such poor riding habits that he ruined horses mouths and bodies. Every horse he rode ended up with an underdeveloped topline and over developed muscles under the kneck. He also thought that he looked cool when a horse pranced and reared and would deliberately saw and fuss and jerk with a horses mouth until it did so. Basically every interaction he had with a horse was to demonstrate how cool he was, it was about showing off, "look at me riding this horse 'coz no one else can". Yuck, yuck, yuck!! So now apparently I have an allergic reaction whenever I see a macho male showing off on a horse. Huh - go figure.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Do whatever you need to do, geld him, build him a pen, but he and the other stallion need to have somewhere to stretch their legs in. I know you're only trying to help, but it's not fair to him to be shut in that stall 24/7.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

I agree equiniphile, he did get gelded about 2 weeks ago though. If he were mine I would give him a bit more time to heal and them put him out with some gentle mares or geldings just to run and detox from the bad handling he has had. Horses NEED to run, they NEED freedom. Its hardwired into their brains to move up to 30 miles or more a day to find food, escape predators etc. Its not fair to a horse to pen him in a little stall day after day and not allow him to run. He desperately needs it! His pain from his gelding will limit how much and how fast he runs, but walking around is going to help reduce his swelling which is quite a bit from the video you posted.


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## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

I agree, once he has healed up a bit more, let him have a romp with some other horses. Honestly, I think socialization with his own species will do WONDERS for him. He needs time to run about and play, and just graze with a group. He will feel included and more at home if he can make friends.


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## RogueMare (Feb 17, 2010)

read this thread. Beginning to end. First off- that is a Good looking horse! In watching the video (I could only see the first on the first post) I did really only see an aggressive reaction to the guy touching him. but everything I wanted to say was already said.  

Ok. to vid num two. I have to agree with Kiwigirl- knee jerk reaction to the guy in the saddle. Guy without the shirt on I cringed at too. But that being said looking only at the horse- He seems to know SOMETHING. Maybe not much, but he doesn't seem completely oblivious to whats going on like I've seen with first saddle rides on a horse that we(myself and others at my barn) knew for a fact hadn't had a saddle before.

I also commend you on coming on this site, and reaching out to learn and try to better your horse world.


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