# Rising trot



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

*Take this with a big cup of FWIW*: I strongly prefer rising from the stirrups, although the vast majority of my trotting time is done in two-point....using the old description of two point as "standing in the stirrups". Why?

1 - Like you, I notice that if I ride without stirrups, all my weight goes into my thigh and my knees CANNOT act to absorb shock. It concentrates weight into my knees and that is not a good thing. A fairly old time writer, VS Littauer, put it this way:

_"It seemed to me in 1933, when this [_a different book he wrote early in his life_] book appeared (and I haven't changed my mind since), that if the rider's position depended primarily on firmly fixed knees then he was greatly hampered in the use of his legs. For, as long as a strong use of the legs releases the wedging of the knees, it would seem that the rider's position would be weakened every time he had to control the horse forcibly. Of course, on perfectly schooled horses, such moments may occur very rarely and don't have to be considered seriously; but a perfectly schooled horse is far from being a general case in this world, at least today. 

I am also against gripping strongly with knees alone because as a result of abrupt movements of the horse which the rider has not been able to follow rhythmically he often loses his position by pivoting on the knees, usually landing on the horse's neck or beyond. All of us have seen this happen to such riders during unexpected refusals or irregular take-offs for the jump. Obviously, gripping with the lower thighs, knees and upper calves is stronger than with the knees alone. 

Furthermore, a strongly fixed knee interferes with the flow of the weight into the stirrups and stiffens the knee joints, thus greatly diminishing the amount of spring in the rider's body. This spring, which is rarely mentioned by other schools of forward riding is to me a very important element in a good, effortless forward seat. 

And last, but not least, I am quite certain that a hard grip stiffens a beginner and, once in the habit of being stiff, some never relax in their lives. So how am I to produce relaxed riders (not merely sitters) if my teaching from the outset is to be based on a fixed knee? Thus, with great regret, I had to reject for my work this part of the Italian method, of many principles of which I personally am so fond_." - Common Sense Horsemanship, VS Littauer, Chapter 5

2 - Like you, I see no way to ride without weight in the stirrups unless I grip with my knee. And grip with my knee unbalances me. I understand the Italian old school rode that way and some great athletes have gotten amazing performances out of some horses that way....but I'm in my 60s and am NOT a great athlete. From time to time, I briefly drop my stirrups to practice it in case I lose them sometime...but briefly! I'm convinced, from learning on a very spooky mare prone to violent spins, that security is rooted in the LOWER leg.

A back injury from Jan 2009 continues to plague me and I've twisted my back enough when riding lately that I no longer TRY to sit the trot or canter. Half-seat, please. Spares MY back. And my horse's back! Riding in two point results in peak pressures on the horse's back that are 20% lower than posting or sitting a trot! I also read a study a long time ago that indicated two point was actually more stable in all three axis than anything else. As I experiment with it again, I'm starting to believe it is true.

POSTING: Something I rarely do. Posting has the same peak pressures on the back that sitting has, just half as often. But if I do post....then I do it from the stirrups. The US Cavalry taught this test of one's riding position:

_"How to Test Correctness of Rider's Position: If the rider is in balance as a result of his upper body's being properly inclined forward, he is able at the walk, trot or gallop, WITHOUT FIRST LEANING FARTHER FORWARD and without pulling on the reins, to stand in his stirrups with all his weight in his depressed heels.

In executing this exercise the seat is raised just clear of the saddle by stiffening the knees but keep them partly flexed. The upper body REMAINS inclined forward at the hips. At the trot on hand should touch the horse's neck LIGHTLY to assist in remaining in balance. At the walk or gallop [canter] the rider, if his seat is correct, should be able to stand in his stirrups without the aid of his hand. A rider, who can execute the above exercise at all gaits and without first changing inclination, is in balance and never "behind his horse". The majority of those NOT in this position partly maintain their balance by hanging on to the reins, thus unnecessarily punishing their horses' mouths as well as their backs._"

Notice without further leaning forward, one should be able to stand in the stirrups - the "rise" position of posting. Instead of fixing the knee and pivoting the thigh around and forward, one merely unfolds their body, thus rising balanced in the stirrups. and then folds. Your balance never changes, only the degree of folding! Then you are "with your horse". If you sit and need to thrust your hips forward to get balanced, then you are riding "behind your horse", making the horse work harder and putting him off balance.

Anyways, those are my thoughts....although my thoughts are rooted in my reading of Littauer and the Cavalry manual. I'm sure others might disagree. FWIW, Bandit and I spent this evening before sunset working on it. Walk, trot and canter, with lots of transitions and turns. Anything above a walk in a half-seat. Truth in advertising, from a month ago, so you can see why no one pays me for lessons:






And yeah, I live south of Tucson and Bandit would REALLY rather stop and eat grass! We've had incredible rains by Arizona standards and have more grass than poor Bandit has ever seen.

PS: If we post in order to make things easier for our horse, why would we make him use energy to thrust us up into the air? Why not use OUR legs and spare him?


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## roddeyol (Feb 24, 2020)

bsms said:


> *Take this with a big cup of FWIW*: I strongly prefer rising from the stirrups, although the vast majority of my trotting time is done in two-point....using the old description of two point as "standing in the stirrups". Why?
> 
> 1 - Like you, I notice that if I ride without stirrups, all my weight goes into my thigh and my knees CANNOT act to absorb shock. It concentrates weight into my knees and that is not a good thing. A fairly old time writer, VS Littauer, put it this way:
> 
> ...


Thanks Bsms. Your reply makes a lot of sense to me. I will try what you have said this afternoon. By the way you and Bandit look great- what a beautiful horse. Ps I am in my 60s too (65)😀


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

roddeyol said:


> Hi. I have been riding two years and I am trying to get a better rising trot. I’m confused on several issues. Firstly do I rise from my stirrups? Some instructors say I should rise from my upper thighs and not put my weight in my stirrups. They demonstrate rising with out having their feet in the stirrups. But thighs are connected to the knees and everyone seems quite unanimous that I should not squeeze with my knees. And I also think that rising this way would be terribly tiring. I’m tempted to think that every rider rises mostly from their weight in the stirrups even if they say so otherwise. but I could be wrong and I want to do it right. When I try to rise without my stirrups I find it very uncomfortable due to my male anatomy in my fairly prominent pummel. Secondly , do I let the horses motion propel me forward and up? Some instructors say I should just touch the saddle with my bottom in which case I could not put enough weight in my bottom to cause me to be propelled forward , and if I’m not timing it right I thump on his back.
> thanks very much. Rod



I just love this no-nonsense description of learning how to post the trot and figure out all the 'verbiage' you get whenn you take lessons. 
Before I get into any further advice and nitpicking the meaning of words, let me assure you that you WILL find that sweet spot wherein rising to the trot becomes as easy and natural as balancing on a bicycle. I promis you.

so, yeah, the whole 'don't rise from your stirrups' thing is not very clear, IMO. What I THINK they mean is to not actually push against your stirrups. Ok, what does THAT mean? Well, here's an example. If you wish to stand up on your feet, the balls of your feet, you will push upward, and you will push the 'ground' away from you. But, if you just wish to stand up from a crouch, ( keeping your foot flat to and parallel with the floor), you tend to have a nuetral relationship with the ground, and then sort of 'unfold' your body. Naturally, in reality and Newtonian physics, both ways of lifting your body upward exert equal pressure against the earth in order to raise your body. but the first has a greater feeling of you _pushing the earth away from you_ , verses the second example wherein you use the earth to raise yourself up from. 
So, you do not really want to push your stirrups away from you, but you do allow them as a place for you to lift yourself from. Sound like gobbledygook nonsense? What can help is the feeling that if there is any 'push' it goes PAST the stirrup, down into the earth. That's where 'heels down' can help. Not to the extreme, but it helps keep the WHOLE leg dropping DOWN , toward the earth, rather than your focus being on the platform of the stirrup, and pushing OFF of it. 
Try this exersize and way of thinking . . . . . . imagine the weight of your body going down the outside back of your thigh, calf, through the heel and outside 'knobble' of your ankle bone, down, down and focus this toward the hooves of the rear feet of your horse. Look up and ahead, and start your posting. 

of course, there are other things, such as how your body is angled, how the hips move, etc. But, since you mentioned the whole stirrup or no stirrup to post on, I offer this mental imagery to hopefully help you get a feel for that.

Cheers!


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## roddeyol (Feb 24, 2020)

Hi Tinyliny. Thanks for a great reply. REALLY helpful. I think this is what they mean by not pushing from the stirrups and it has clarified it greatly. I will read this over and over to get it in my thick skull. 😂Thanks so much Rod


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## eventing_connemara (Aug 26, 2021)

heyy im from uk 😂✌ i’ve ridden for like 13 years and i’ve always been told to rise from your upper thighs with the weight in your stirrups - that’s how i’ve always done it. hope this helps - it’s kinda hard to explain it 😂 x


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## roddeyol (Feb 24, 2020)

roddeyol said:


> Hi Tinyliny. Thanks for a great reply. REALLY helpful. I think this is what they mean by not pushing from the stirrups and it has clarified it greatly. I will read this over and over to get it in my thick skull. 😂Thanks so much Rod





eventing_connemara said:


> heyy im from uk 😂✌ i’ve ridden for like 13 years and i’ve always been told to rise from your upper thighs with the weight in your stirrups - that’s how i’ve always done it. hope this helps - it’s kinda hard to explain it 😂 x


Hi , thanks for that reply. Could you please explain how to rise from the upper thighs with the weight in my stirrups. I have tried to rise from my upper thighs bit but find it very difficult.Thanks Rod


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Good posts from @bsms and @tinyliny. I really like the description of not pushing down on the stirrups but standing on and rising from them. 

I think people talk about knees, stirrups and thighs but a very important element is the friction and pressure of your leg against the horse. It's not like you can post effortlessly with your legs out in space with no horse between. And you certainly can't if you try to muscle yourself up and down. 

The friction/light pressure of your leg (particularly the inner back lower thigh and upper calf) against the horse allow you to control the rise and fall of your body with the horse. 

After that it comes down to a feel for the timing of the horse's gait, and the amount of muscle tension required.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

It's all in the hips. Lose the stirrups and imitate Shakira.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

That's an interesting comment about posting from the legs being more difficult for a man. A lot of top riders are men, though, so there must be some way around that.

I can post without stirrups but I also find it very tiring. I can't do it for more than maybe a minute at a time. But that may be one of those things where you just have to build up the muscles.

From my own personal experience, if you post from your feet, it makes your legs more likely to swing, which can negatively affect your position and also be confusing for your horse.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

@tinyliny gave a great description of the rising trot concept so not a lot to add.

When people use the stirrups to push against in the concept of using them rather like pedals, the lower leg will brace and either shoot forwards (most common) or it will go backwards and tilt for seat position in the saddle forwards - which will result in your 'male parts' hitting the front of the saddle. 

The rising trot is all about core strength - your leg is always going to be in contact with the horse/saddle - if not you'd be floating above them - you can use that contact to post/rise without stirrups without needing a vice like grip, if you have good core strength.

To go back to tinyliny's post - think of your stirrups as the floor. 
Stand on the floor with your legs slightly apart and push yourself up and down as if you were rising to the trot - your feet must remain flat on the floor.
You will then realize that it isn't your feet pushing off the floor that's causing your body to rise and fall - its your core strength combined with muscles in your legs and the 'hinge' in your knee.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I looked up Shakira. Based on her photo in Wiki, I'm pretty sure THIS old man will never be able to imitate Shakira. We're not built the same....  

Seriously, though, Littauer wrote about using the joints as hinges that open & close to absorb shock. If I jump out of the back of a pickup, I land on my feet and my knees bend (and my hips too) so my legs can absorb the shock. If I landed on my knees first, I'd be in for a trip to the hospital. The part of the body best adapted for flexing to spread out the impact over a longer period of time, thus reducing peak impact, is the knee. Once I get to the knee, my horse's side is vertical and I can't grip along a vertical side. In fact, on slender Bandit, my knee is hanging out in space. I can't grip WITH the knee itself because my knee doesn't have contact with my horse:






I think of the stirrups as the ground. It prevents my feet from going lower when I use my legs to rise or slow my downward motion, allowing my knees to function the way they do every time I walk around. Rising from the stirrups is no different in feel to me than standing on the ground and flexing my legs enough to go 2-3 inches up and down.


ACinATX said:


> From my own personal experience, if you post from your feet, it makes your legs more likely to swing





jaydee said:


> When people use the stirrups to push against in the concept of using them rather like pedals, the lower leg will brace and either shoot forwards (most common) or it will go backwards and tilt for seat position in the saddle forwards - which will result in your 'male parts' hitting the front of the saddle.


There is only one reason this can happen: Your center of gravity is not already above your stirrups. IOW, you are riding "behind your horse" and your shifting center of gravity forces your legs around. Riding in two point, you MUST be "with your horse" or your entire body becomes unstable. When one can ride stable in two point, then all you need to do is start flexing a little at the knee to rising and descend (NOT "fall") while staying balanced above the stirrups and with your horse.

_"How to Test Correctness of Rider's Position: *If the rider is in balance as a result of his upper body's being properly inclined forward, he is able at the walk, trot or gallop, WITHOUT FIRST LEANING FARTHER FORWARD and without pulling on the reins, to stand in his stirrups with all his weight in his depressed heels.*"_

These show someone thrusting forward and back with their hips (which seems to be the standard teaching), versus staying "with your horse" and merely folding and unfolding:


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I'm going to try to describe how I do the rising trot and see if that helps.

I put my weight more in my heal then in the ball of my foot so I'm not actually using the stirrups to rise although they are somewhat used as they provide support.

I role forward from the hip/pelvis. My calfs stay firm against the horse. My knee is pressing against the saddle but I am not pinching with it. My thigh just above the knee is what I am using to rise. Don't be stiff and don't try to stand and plop. Does that help at all?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> You will then realize that it isn't your feet pushing off the floor that's causing your body to rise and fall - its your core strength combined with muscles in your legs and the 'hinge' in your knee.


One CANNOT stand on the ground AND imitate a posting motion as it is usually taught because when your hips go back, you WILL fall - unless you have a CHAIR (or horse) to catch them! Standing on the ground, you MUST fold and unfold with your center of gravity over your feet or you WILL FALL. You must be "with the ground" versus "behind the ground"!


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## Jolien (Aug 19, 2019)

@
*bsms*

Your horse is so handsome! * *

I never thought about how I rise in the stirrups. I have been riding for 2 years also and I understood that you had to just casually and without effort had to stand up (not pushing against the stirrups, not grabbing the horse with your thigs or legs or knees) and just bring your hips and pelvic area a tiny bit forward (like a natural motion?) <- nobody ever explained to me how to do the rising trot. I do notice I use the tip of my feet (toe area and a bit behind) and I keep my feet straight. When I want the horse to go slower or stop, I drop my heel low in the stirrup while still doing the rising trot. This makes my horse fall back in a lighter trot or a stop depending how I do it. I never thought about this so this thread is really interesting!!!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms said:


> One CANNOT stand on the ground AND imitate a posting motion as it is usually taught because when your hips go back, you WILL fall - unless you have a CHAIR (or horse) to catch them! Standing on the ground, you MUST fold and unfold with your center of gravity over your feet or you WILL FALL. You must be "with the ground" versus "behind the ground"!


The idea of standing on the ground is to understand how your core strength and leg muscles combine to move your self up and down without needing to push yourself off the floor
Ypu can do the same thing sitting on a chair.
I have no idea why your hips should be going back or why you'd need something to prevent you from falling over backwards


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

When I am going to trot I will have a light contact with my knees, balls of the feet in the stirrups and I don't even try to rise up in the saddle, I wait and let the impulsion of the horse's movement lift me up and a little forward. I don't want to lift up very high just enough to clear the saddle and i don't want to lean forward. I can and often do trot for very long distances and it is very little effort for me, I change diagonals every so often so I am not letting one hind leg of the horse do all the work of lifting me.
I know I put some weight in the stirrups as we go because I could not go such long distances without them.
I guess a simple way of saying this is to relax and go with the flow (flow being the impulsion from one of the horse's hind leg)


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

When I said I don't want to go high in the post just enough to clear the saddle I meant the seat of the saddle by only and inch or two.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

@bsms Tom Jones is older than you, copy his hip action


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I have no idea why your hips should be going back


Neither do I - but look at the videos I posted, particularly in slow motion. One of the standard teachings is to sit back, and the rotate around the knee to bring the hip forward and up. Unfolding is virtually unheard of. I'm the only person I know who uses that term and yet it seems so utterly obvious! If you stand on the ground and lower and raise your hips, you fold and unfold. Your center of gravity is always over your feet. Sitting in a chair, when you rise, you start by leaning forward. You know instinctively you *must* get your center of gravity (torso or hips) over your base of support (feet).

With help from the large thigh and knee blocks, this rider's knee doesn't move...but her hips sure do:







waresbear said:


> Tom Jones is older than you, copy his hip action


Brilliant riposte!  But seriously, I'm a male in his 60s who started riding in his 50s, giving my experience to another male rider starting in his 60s. My 35 year old DIL has a spine like linguini. Mine? I've lost 2.5 of the last 3.5 months of riding due to back spasms. I'm not likely to EVER be fully free from back pain. Years ago, @maura (in case she ever visits HF again) recommended Common Sense Horsemanship by VS Littauer and what he taught (which is largely what the US Cavalry taught) helped my resume riding after my back injury. It changed everything about how I thought about riding!


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## secuono (Jul 6, 2011)

bsms said:


> I looked up Shakira. Based on her photo in Wiki, I'm pretty sure THIS old man will never be able to imitate Shakira. We're not built the same....
> 
> Seriously, though, Littauer wrote about using the joints as hinges that open & close to absorb shock. If I jump out of the back of a pickup, I land on my feet and my knees bend (and my hips too) so my legs can absorb the shock. If I landed on my knees first, I'd be in for a trip to the hospital. The part of the body best adapted for flexing to spread out the impact over a longer period of time, thus reducing peak impact, is the knee. Once I get to the knee, my horse's side is vertical and I can't grip along a vertical side. In fact, on slender Bandit, my knee is hanging out in space. I can't grip WITH the knee itself because my knee doesn't have contact with my horse:
> 
> ...


Do you have a video of the alternative, staying w/horse?


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I will pivo myself posting without stirrups for however long you want to watch. Shessh you girls!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

many of the people who post withut stirrups do so AFTER having learned to post WITH them. Reasons being it helps to learn how to keep your leg in a good position. However, there is some merit to learning how to post bareback and witout stirrups because you learn how to really find the 'lift' of the horse and to take advantage of it to roll forward and lift a bit yourself.k

There are times when you want to be able to post more than just an inch off the seat; for example , sometimes a very big post can encourage bigger movement from the horse. They will often match the amount of lift and energy you put in. Conversely, a horse that has almost not impulsion will be very hard to post off of. 

Also, saddle fit can play a devil of time with your ability to find your balance in the rising trot. a saddle too narrow can have a rise infront that makes the rider have to lean forward (and thus also bring the lower leg forward in an attempt to offset the lean forward), and then end up perpetually BEHIND the motion of the trot . 

A downhill shaped horse can have you perpetually leaning back (and briging your lower leg also back to coounter balance that) and always be fighting a forward 'falling' tendecy.


A seat too big can have you get behind the motion, or 'flump' down harder. A smaller one makes you wince when sitting.


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## ksbowman (Oct 30, 2018)

]

Brilliant riposte!  But seriously, I'm a male in his 60s who started riding in his 50s, giving my experience to another male rider starting in his 60s. My 35 year old DIL has a spine like linguini. Mine? I've lost 2.5 of the last 3.5 months of riding due to back spasms. I'm not likely to EVER be fully free from back pain. Years ago, @maura (in case she ever visits HF again) recommended Common Sense Horsemanship by VS Littauer and what he taught (which is largely what the US Cavalry taught) helped my resume riding after my back injury. It changed everything about how I thought about riding!
[/QUOTE]
I find the back spasm problem very interesting. I'm a 70 yo male and when I was working construction if I was having back problems from work the best thing I could do was take a ride on my horse. If I kept her at a walk it would relax it so well. The rocking of my hips while she walked always made the pain and spasms go away.

Now on the posting, I do much like @bsms rising with the trot on my thighs but, using the stirrups much like sitting in a chair.. Not putting full weight in the stirrups but., resting them and putting a little weight there. I don't ride a trot in a two point though. I rarely use a two point stance at all except when roping. I only ride western though.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Woodhaven said:


> When I am going to trot I will have a light contact with my knees, balls of the feet in the stirrups and I don't even try to rise up in the saddle,* I wait and let the impulsion of the horse's movement lift me up and a little forward. *I don't want to lift up very high just enough to clear the saddle and i don't want to lean forward. I can and often do trot for very long distances and it is very little effort for me, I change diagonals every so often so I am not letting one hind leg of the horse do all the work of lifting me.
> I know I put some weight in the stirrups as we go because I could not go such long distances without them.
> I guess a simple way of saying this is to relax and go with the flow (flow being the impulsion from one of the horse's hind leg)


Basically this entire post. Bolded is the most important.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

riding at a walk relaxes and improves my back too, ( age 63)


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## MeditativeRider (Feb 5, 2019)

Posting/rising trot is super hard for me. I have enjoyed reading all the posts with the knowledge from @bsms and @tinyliny. 

I have come to the conclusion for myself (after 4 going on 5 years of lessons [the only situation I can ride in, in my area]) that my issues are down to saddle fit like @tinyliny mentioned and not being over the center of gravity like @bsms mentioned. Most importantly for me, because of saddle fit, I am not over the center of gravity in the rising part. Like described in this article: The long and short of it: How leg length affects your riding position - Horsetalk.co.nz. I have a very long upper leg compared with my lower leg. My femurs are the same length as my husband's, who is 6 ft tall (I am 5 ft 5). So while I can counteract things in the sitting part, once I rise, gravity takes over and swings my leg forward to where the stirrup position of the saddle puts it. It also means I struggle to hold hold 2-point (off horse, in a similar way, I struggle to squat with "correct" form without falling backward). 

I figure the only way to fix it is to get my own horse and a saddle that fits both of us, but that is not an option. So, I am at the point where I am just not enjoying riding.

Not that it helps the OP at all, but just thanks for everyone who has posted as it is interesting to read.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

@MeditativeRider I bet your long leg would work well in a Western Saddle.


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## roddeyol (Feb 24, 2020)

gottatrot said:


> Good posts from @bsms and @tinyliny. I really like the description of not pushing down on the stirrups but standing on and rising from them.
> 
> I think people talk about knees, stirrups and thighs but a very important element is the friction and pressure of your leg against the horse. It's not like you can post effortlessly with your legs out in space with no horse between. And you certainly can't if you try to muscle yourself up and down.
> 
> ...


thanks Gottatrot, that is a great point. I will try the friction/light pressure for control. I hope my horse can destinguish between constant light pressure and a leg aid but he is a smart boy😀. I think this has to be the way to go to sort my rising trot out. Thanks Rod


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## roddeyol (Feb 24, 2020)

MeditativeRider said:


> Posting/rising trot is super hard for me. I have enjoyed reading all the posts with the knowledge from @bsms and @tinyliny.
> 
> I have come to the conclusion for myself (after 4 going on 5 years of lessons [the only situation I can ride in, in my area]) that my issues are down to saddle fit like @tinyliny mentioned and not being over the center of gravity like @bsms mentioned. Most importantly for me, because of saddle fit, I am not over the center of gravity in the rising part. Like described in this article: The long and short of it: How leg length affects your riding position - Horsetalk.co.nz. I have a very long upper leg compared with my lower leg. My femurs are the same length as my husband's, who is 6 ft tall (I am 5 ft 5). So while I can counteract things in the sitting part, once I rise, gravity takes over and swings my leg forward to where the stirrup position of the saddle puts it. It also means I struggle to hold hold 2-point (off horse, in a similar way, I struggle to squat with "correct" form without falling backward).
> 
> ...


Hi Meditative rider. I can so relate. How can rising trot look so simple and be so hard. I think the saddle has a lot to do with it as I have only had problems with the rising trot in my new APSaddle. Ps I was fine in my dressage saddle but it dosn’t fit Charlie any more. Please hang in there 😀


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## roddeyol (Feb 24, 2020)

waresbear said:


> It's all in the hips. Lose the stirrups and imitate Shakira.


Thanks Waresbear 😀


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

roddeyol said:


> Hi Meditative rider. I can so relate. How can rising trot look so simple and be so hard. I think the saddle has a lot to do with it as *I have only had problems with the rising trot in my new APSaddl*e. Ps I was fine in my dressage saddle but it dosn’t fit Charlie any more. Please hang in there 😀



this explains a lot! I have NEVER felt good in an AP saddle at the rising trot. I always felt behind the motiion.


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## roddeyol (Feb 24, 2020)

waresbear said:


> It's all in the hips. Lose the stirrups and imitate Shakira.


Thanks waresbear, I’ll try 😀


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## roddeyol (Feb 24, 2020)

ACinATX said:


> That's an interesting comment about posting from the legs being more difficult for a man. A lot of top riders are men, though, so there must be some way around that.
> 
> I can post without stirrups but I also find it very tiring. I can't do it for more than maybe a minute at a time. But that may be one of those things where you just have to build up the muscles.
> 
> From my own personal experience, if you post from your feet, it makes your legs more likely to swing, which can negatively affect your position and also be confusing for your horse.


Thanks ACinATX, 😀


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## roddeyol (Feb 24, 2020)

farmpony84 said:


> I'm going to try to describe how I do the rising trot and see if that helps.
> 
> I put my weight more in my heal then in the ball of my foot so I'm not actually using the stirrups to rise although they are somewhat used as they provide support.
> 
> I role forward from the hip/pelvis. My calfs stay firm against the horse. My knee is pressing against the saddle but I am not pinching with it. My thigh just above the knee is what I am using to rise. Don't be stiff and don't try to stand and plop. Does that help at all?


Yes farmpony84. That helps a lot, thanks Rod 😀


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## roddeyol (Feb 24, 2020)

Woodhaven said:


> When I am going to trot I will have a light contact with my knees, balls of the feet in the stirrups and I don't even try to rise up in the saddle, I wait and let the impulsion of the horse's movement lift me up and a little forward. I don't want to lift up very high just enough to clear the saddle and i don't want to lean forward. I can and often do trot for very long distances and it is very little effort for me, I change diagonals every so often so I am not letting one hind leg of the horse do all the work of lifting me.
> I know I put some weight in the stirrups as we go because I could not go such long distances without them.
> I guess a simple way of saying this is to relax and go with the flow (flow being the impulsion from one of the horse's hind leg)


hi Woodhaven, thanks, I’ll try that. My challenge will be to get the timing right ie not sitting too early or late and not being in synch with his rhythm( or should i be the one to set his rhythm?)


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## roddeyol (Feb 24, 2020)

jaydee said:


> The idea of standing on the ground is to understand how your core strength and leg muscles combine to move your self up and down without needing to push yourself off the floor
> Ypu can do the same thing sitting on a chair.
> I have no idea why your hips should be going back or why you'd need something to prevent you from falling over backwards


Thanks jaydee 😀


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## roddeyol (Feb 24, 2020)

tinyliny said:


> many of the people who post withut stirrups do so AFTER having learned to post WITH them. Reasons being it helps to learn how to keep your leg in a good position. However, there is some merit to learning how to post bareback and witout stirrups because you learn how to really find the 'lift' of the horse and to take advantage of it to roll forward and lift a bit yourself.k
> 
> There are times when you want to be able to post more than just an inch off the seat; for example , sometimes a very big post can encourage bigger movement from the horse. They will often match the amount of lift and energy you put in. Conversely, a horse that has almost not impulsion will be very hard to post off of.
> 
> ...


Hi tinyliny, I seem to have had the problem with the rising trot since getting my new AP saddle. I was fine in my dressage saddle ( which does not fit my horse any more). I have read that the attachment of the stirrup leathers is further forward in the AP saddle than in a dressage saddle. Could that be the reason I am having this trouble ( ie being behind the motion? ). Thanks Rod


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

waresbear said:


> I will pivo myself posting without stirrups for however long you want to watch. Shessh you girls!


I can also post the trot without stirrups all day if I have to... but please, for the love of all that is holy, no one make me. 😄


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

SteadyOn said:


> I can also post the trot without stirrups all day if I have to... but please, for the love of all that is holy, no one make me. 😄


It's good for you!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

SteadyOn said:


> I can also post the trot without stirrups all day if I have to... but please, for the love of all that is holy, no one make me. 😄



I suppose, but I can tell you that when you adductors (the muscle in the INSIDE of your thigh) become way stronger than the abductor (the muscle on the OUTSIDE of your thigh), you can end up with knee problems, hip and lower back trouble related to THAT. So, if you do a lot of inside squeezing, you might need to balance that with leg lifts to the side and 'clamshells'. If I work those adductors too much, I end up getting severe charleyhorse cramps, and , well, at the most embarrassing of times.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

tinyliny said:


> I suppose, but I can tell you that when you adductors (the muscle in the INSIDE of your thigh) become way stronger than the abductor (the muscle on the OUTSIDE of your thigh), you can end up with knee problems, hip and lower back trouble related to THAT. So, if you do a lot of inside squeezing, you might need to balance that with leg lifts to the side and 'clamshells'. If I work those adductors too much, I end up getting severe charleyhorse cramps, and , well, at the most embarrassing of times.


I try to use my hamstrings as much as possible, rather than the adductors, to balance myself. I think of pushing back-and-down rather than in, whether I'm riding with or without stirrups. I find it rebalances me better, and helps keep me from impeding the horse by gripping.

Hoooooweveerrr, any and all good intentions can and will go out the window with fatigue. I usually just use rising without stirrups as a why to find the rhythm, deepen my seat and, realistically, tire myself a bit so that sitting the trot stirrupless feels like butter in comparison. 😄 Whatever works!


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## roddeyol (Feb 24, 2020)

tinyliny said:


> I suppose, but I can tell you that when you adductors (the muscle in the INSIDE of your thigh) become way stronger than the abductor (the muscle on the OUTSIDE of your thigh), you can end up with knee problems, hip and lower back trouble related to THAT. So, if you do a lot of inside squeezing, you might need to balance that with leg lifts to the side and 'clamshells'. If I work those adductors too much, I end up getting severe charleyhorse cramps, and , well, at the most embarrassing of times.


I can testify to that. I had left hip pain that had all sorts of investigations and treatments . But it was all caused by overuse of my adductors ( plus asymmetry) in my riding.


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

Woodhaven said:


> When I am going to trot I will have a light contact with my knees, balls of the feet in the stirrups and I don't even try to rise up in the saddle, I wait and let the impulsion of the horse's movement lift me up and a little forward. I don't want to lift up very high just enough to clear the saddle and i don't want to lean forward. I can and often do trot for very long distances and it is very little effort for me, I change diagonals every so often so I am not letting one hind leg of the horse do all the work of lifting me.
> I know I put some weight in the stirrups as we go because I could not go such long distances without them.
> I guess a simple way of saying this is to relax and go with the flow (flow being the impulsion from one of the horse's hind leg)



Well said! This is how I was instructed.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Roddeyol as far as dropping back into the saddle the lack of impulsion from the horse as he sets that hind foot down will let you just drop down into the saddle then as that hind foot comes forward again you rise with it. I'm sure this will take a little time and practice. Sometimes it helps if you take hold of the saddle pommel or a neck strap or have a strap attached to the D rings at the front of the saddle to help you keep your balance. Sometimes a lunge lesson helps a lot as you can concentrate on you and the rhythm of the horse without having to direct the horse or maintain the rhythm.
Good luck and have fun with this.


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## roddeyol (Feb 24, 2020)

Woodhaven said:


> Roddeyol as far as dropping back into the saddle the lack of impulsion from the horse as he sets that hind foot down will let you just drop down into the saddle then as that hind foot comes forward again you rise with it. I'm sure this will take a little time and practice. Sometimes it helps if you take hold of the saddle pommel or a neck strap or have a strap attached to the D rings at the front of the saddle to help you keep your balance. Sometimes a lunge lesson helps a lot as you can concentrate on you and the rhythm of the horse without having to direct the horse or maintain the rhythm.
> Good luck and have fun with this.


Thanks Woodhaven- I will definitely practice this


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## roddeyol (Feb 24, 2020)

Hi , as a follow on from this discussion, I recently saw my saddle fitter and told her of my intability and discomfort in the rising trot. She suggested moving velcroed thigh pads on my AP saddle back towards me as far as they would go. Then I could lean/brace  against them for stability in the rise. It helped!! Yay! She said to put them as far away from me as possible so I could get into a jumping position when I wanted to do jumping. Also I have been putting into practice what everyone has said So things are getting better. Hooray 😀


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