# A Rant About "On The Bit", Collection & Training Techniques



## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

*Warning! This thread is LONG may induce some serious debate, let's not tear each other's heads off. Skip to the TLDR if you don't want to read my wall of text*

I entered the show ring for the first time this weekend. My mare and I did English Pleasure (placed 6th) and English Equitation (placed 2nd). After asking the judge for feedback in the Pleasure class, what I was told was exactly what I was expecting: "Your horse carries her head a bit higher than desired in a Pleasure class, as the idea is to show off a horse who is a pleasure to ride. If your horse has a high head carriage, it gives the impression she isn't relaxed." Aka, get your horse's head down and in a frame.

I ended up placing in the class anyway, because the judge said despite the head carriage that my horse looked responsive to the rider (which she is).

Getting onto the rant: I've had just about up to here with the terms collection, frame, half-halt, headset, on the bit, see-sawing, etc. I don't think I've ever experienced a more confusing and highly debated subject when it comes to horse training and riding. I've spent more time talking to various trainers and reading different articles about "collection" that I've since given up trying to learn anything about it. I've put my horse in a 'frame' just fine, then thought to myself "Don't bother, someone is just going to come along and tell you you're doing it wrong anyway". So I don't bother.

The instructor I'm with now is a typical 4H western trainer who plays with the reins a lot and seesaws softly to get a horse to drop their head. Her philosophy is to teach the horse the head-down cue and eventually you will just have to pick up lightly on both reins and the horse will drop its head.

The other instructor at my barn is a level 3 coach who is also a dressage rider. She uses the method of 'inside leg to outside rein', where the outside rein is drawn back to the hip on a moderate contact, and lots of driving aids to get the horse to step under itself, and then sponging the inside rein if necessary.

I recently visited another prospective barn with a level 3 coach who is highly, highly experienced and has been on the Canadian Equestrian Team. Her students use the half-halt technique, also known as riding the horse from back to front - except that the reins are still an important tool in this 'riding from back to front'. There is still contact, and there are still people playing with reins. 

Want to know what this article says about the half halt? (Half-halt the key to getting your horse on the bit - Horsetalk.co.nz)

1. Squeeze with both legs to give the horse's legs energy so they track up. 
2. Close the outside rein to recycle the energy back to the hind end (aka, get contact on the outside rein)
3. Sponge the inside rein to keep the neck straight.
Put it all together and you get a horse properly on the bit.

Other things I read on the internet are: sponging is the same things as see-sawing and I don't advocate it, don't ever see-saw a horse's mouth because it's cruel, ride your horse front to back and the head will fall into place, stop being concerned about a frame until you learn to do it right, etc.

*TLDR:*
I guess my point it, is that to me it's all the same thing just with different words, or it at least derives from the same place. See-sawing is bad, but ride your horse front to back with half-halts? That too looks like a lot of playing with both reins just with some added leg and seat to get the horse to track up and use its hind end as well. It may not be "see-sawing", but it's still adding solid contact on one rein, the "sponging" the other rein. It create the same effect as see-sawing, pulling the bit to one side and then back the other way but may be considered a tad less severe.

In my research, it seems like everyone has a different opinion of collection and being "on the bit", yet the principals of achieving it seem to all be relatively similar. Coincidence? I always figured I needed to be a Grand Prix dressage rider in order to properly get my horse on the bit, but the dressage riders I have seen use the same technique to put their horse in a frame, but just add half-halts into the mix as well to get their horse to use their hind end.

Sincerely,

Seriously frustrated and mentally exhausted rider who just wants to get better for shows :evil:


----------



## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

I agree that 2nd and 3rd trainer are basically the same. You do drive them to the outside rein and close your hand to block the shoulder. I also do not like seesawing and think the term sponging is the same as a half halt. 
I have recently been taught that the half halt is on the inside bend to soften that direction.
Show training has more contact then just nice soft supply training for pleasure.
I just finished a clinic and my goal is very little rein and mainly seat, legs.. by the end I could turn my horse with out reins. We didnt have any contact per-say and were not to pull back but lift instead. It was an eye opening experience and it worked.
when trying to create energy, longer stride I just squeezed inside leg with rib cage movement. Did not do both legs. Both seemed to be for change of gait not staying in the same gait.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A big chunk of this book, Riding and Schooling Horses ( http://www.amazon.com/Riding-School...4&sr=8-1&keywords=riding+and+schooling+horses ), covers putting a horse on the bit. Being of a more western persuasion, I don't try to put the horse on the bit. However, reading Chamberlin's book made me realize it far more complex than 'sponging' or 'half-halts' or 'seesawing' or 'frame'. Those terms are so oversimplified as to be misleading. I'd suggest reading his book. $20 is less than the price of a single lesson, and his discussion of good hands and how to use a bit are worth every penny, even for those of us who have no intention of doing it that way.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

There's a website called Horse Listening. It explains how to get the horse "on the bit" ie stretching down to it. How to use your legs and body to achieve this. It does depict an English horse but don't let that throw you off.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Sponging/Vibrating the reins is gently opening and closing your fingers on them in a squeezing action and is more to get the horses focus on you and the bit

See-sawing is more forceful and involves alternate pulls on the reins (right left right left etc ) to bring the horses head into 'frame'. It doesn't mean that the horse is collected - just that the horse has its head in a position similar to the way it would hold it if collected


----------



## Cimarron (Oct 8, 2014)

I agree that the second and third trainer are similar.
Riding the horse from back to from is something I do a lot, inside leg to outside rein is included in that as well.
To get the horse to lower it's head, I have been told to 'tickle' the reins. Like Jaydee said, opening a closing your hands on the reins.

"That too looks like a lot of playing with both reins just with some added leg and seat to get the horse to track up and use its hind end as well."

That tends to be what happens, at least for me, when I and working on hind end engagement/ getting into frame. I often do it on a circle. 

I don't think there is one way to do it. I think every horse is different and timing is something that is specific to individuals and is very important in getting the horse to understand what you want. 

In regards to your horse having a high headset and is therefore "not relaxed" is a little bogus in my mind. Horses carry themselves differently depending on their level of fitness and even breed.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

"Playing with the reins" is a vital part of teaching your horse how to carry their hind legs underneath them and move from their natural center of gravity (their shoulders) to the one that actually works better (their hindquarters). 

Imagine that your uncollected horse is this straight line. 


________________________________________



Their back is hollow. Their nose sticks out. And their hindquarters are out behind them. 

Sure, you can drive their hindquarters up underneath them. But to have TRUE collection, they also need to elevate their shoulders (and in turn) be soft with their face and naturally fall into a "frame".

__________________
_____------- --------_____


The back is rounded. The head is down. And the hindquarters are under. 

So it's simply necessary to have some sort of rein contact while you are teaching the horse. You can't achieve collection without it. 

Now of course, once your horse learns what to do and to develop the muscles to do it, you can "back off" on your cues and the horse should hold their frame. If they drop it, you correct them and have them pick it back up. 

Eventually, that's why you can ride around on a loose rein (Western) and still have collection. Or in a Hunter version, that horse reaches for the bit and stretches for it. (English) It's just the manner in which you've taught them. 

But no matter what, in the beginning, your horse needs rein support to help them.


EDITED: Ah darn, I see the auto-correct won't let my little pictures show up correctly. Shoot.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If you remove the 'rein support/contact' and the horse stays in the same frame then it would be thought of having a 'fixed headset' 
In UK English riding and dressage when you lengthen the reins (you still have contact with the mouth) the horse should follow the bit down hence the 'free walk' part of a test.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDi3G8senCM


----------



## rookie (May 14, 2012)

This is interesting and all I know about getting a horse on the bit is what I learned when I was 15 and taking dressage lessons (a fair few moons ago). I define sponging the reins as what I do when I want my horse to focus and slow down and get him into for us what passes as a frame. I do it in association with the outside rein supporting, inside rein sponging, inside leg requesting the bend and outside leg preventing the over bend. I seesaw the reins when he won't listen to a sponge and he blows through a whoa/downward transition cue (seat, legs and hands) and we are headed for a tree or rocky ground. If he blows through the seesaw (he did once) we one rein stop. I don't really want to use my "emergency you best listen" tool for something like getting a horse on the bit. I guess I figure the more important thing is that he is responsive and listening not what he looks like. When gets "in frame" or what passes as it for us, its not about how he looks (I assume he looks nice) its about the fact that I feel like he and I are in sync. Its like we have that great series of moments when all I have to do is think something and he does it. That is more important and I don't think judges give awards for that.


----------



## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

While I understand it is aggravating to get some many different opinions and be told so many different methods, it does fascinate me. Just this example shows how adaptable the horse is to its' interactions with humans. And how consistent handling and cues get results.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

i just love your post! it's so honest and so , ingenuous. you say what you feel, without pretention, and that's rare. 

I think it is confusing. I totally agree. 

some thoughts:

people who say just ride your horse from back to front, do nothing with the rein and if you are doing correct with the hind end are , unwittingly, being false. you have to HAVE a front to ride back to front. so, for them to present it as "I do nothing with the reins, I just put a leg on and when the hrose is ready, he drops into the correct frame" is not helpful. they are so skilled with their hands and rein contact that they are creating a "front" without really being aware of it, and then they are riding the horse into that. they have forgotten this, as it's as natural as breathing to them.

(if you asked someone how to ski, for example, they would not include the instruction of breathing, becuase that is a given. . . . but, it's necessary, right?)

so, yes, you DO need to have meaningful, effective rein/bit communication with the horse. you don't just put a leg on and the hrose falls into this magical place of perfect balance. sorry, that does not really happen, except for super duper excellent riders on super duper sensitive horses.


so, my advice is to not try to emulate something that difficult.


so, that means, you will be concerning yourself with your hands, and the bit and the contact. are you ok with that? ( and disregard anyone who tells you not to worry about that).

the thing is, what does your horse do with contact? contact is communication, and if your horse takes that as a signal to resist or to evade, then it's a problem. working on having contact have a meaning is really important. 

whether you "milk" your hands or see saw is not the issue. you use what gets yoiur horse to be "present" to the communication that you are about to send down the rein. so, if a slight milking of your inside rein gets him to turn an ear and an eye to the inside, like a person picking up a phone and saying, "yes?", then use that. 

you WANT that horse to go "yes?" when you pick up a contact. if he goes , . . . "Gah! I'm looking the other way!"., then you stick in with your request until he picks up the phone, so to speak, and his ear and eye follow the signal of that rein, and he is AVAILABLE to whatever direction you will subsequently apply with your leg or seat. 

that's getting your "front" so that you can ride from back to front.

does this seem reasonable to you?

ETA: 

I should add that I do NOT advocate "see sawing" the rein, EVER. that's becuase you are applying a pull/release that is disconnected from what you are asking for. I mean, you pull/release, but you cannot time it with HIS response, so you can not possible get a response from him that you can correctly reward with good timing. see sawing is brutally without sensitivy. ok for emergencies, but nothing else.

a bit of vibrating or tickling the rein is different, as it just brings the hrose's attention to the rein, and you can stop the INSTANT you get a horse to respond.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Sylvia Loch once compared a horse in collection to be like a spring between your hand and leg.
For a spring to work - to compress to create energy - there has to be a resistance to contain or release that energy and control it - your hands are that resistance.
Take them away and you just have a long flat horse moving at whatever speed or pace it wants too


----------



## Cindyg (Jan 12, 2009)

I also totally agree with you. Those terms have all become code for "tighter rein, force the horse's nose backwards." It's insanity. No amount of locking the head into a certain position will ever lead to collection.


----------



## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Try reading the book "right from the start" 

One of my favorite reads. It really walks you through how to teach your horse a headset on a loose rein. I highly recommend it.

Worth every penny.

And a good dressage trainer should be able to teach you how to collect on light contact. I had the chance to ride a $30,000 dressage horse and he would collect with the lightest touch. A truly wonderful experience. 

Not all trainers resort to jerking on the reins.


----------



## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

I was taught to sponge, so use the outside rein as direction that rein stays solid and the inside is used to 'play' and is left loose while also using the inside leg to ask for more bend.


----------



## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I HATE the terms "headset" and "on the bit".

I much prefer "Up into the bridle" or "Working Through from behind"

For a horse to be truely "up into the bridle" it must first work forwards from behind, get the engine going first!
Once the behind is coming forwards then you can think about the front end, you use your seat to bring the horses back and wither upwards and to contain forwards. Your hands give a horse something to work into, The outside hand contains the outside shoulder from falling out! Your inside hand and leg create bend.

by riding a horse in this way you strengthen the back and use the horses engine. Think of a horses back as a suspension bridge, an upwards curve is far stronger and more capable of carrying weight than a downwards curve.

If ridden in this way I can have my horses head high or down round his knees (my current one has actualy knee'd himself in the chin whilst learning this!) but still ride his back and wither upwards. 
I can ride medium canter to collected canter without having to fiddle with my reins simply by tightening the seat.

Never ever seesaw!!! there is a big difference between sponging and seesawing.
Seesawing involves both hands and normaly results in a horse curling backwards to avoid the bit and ending up behind the verticle.
Sponging involves either 1) a steady outside hand and a tickle on the inside hand to improve bend or relax the jaw or 2) a steady inside hand and a half halt with the outside hand and inside leg to ask a horse to bring its inside hind through and pick its withers up resulting in a horse that is more "up into the bridle"

I actualy prefer to ride with very little pressure on the reins, but the pressure is steady and constant to give him something to work in.


----------



## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

faye said:


> I HATE the terms "headset" and "on the bit".
> 
> I much prefer "Up into the bridle" or "Working Through from behind"
> 
> ...


I learnt number 1 I wasn't sure if it was called sponging though lol, it has worked for my boy and I was so proud when he started coming through from behind it looks so nice.


----------



## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

When I was taking dressage lessons, I was always taught that true collection, and being "on the bit", came from the horse's hindquarters, and so the riders seat and legs.


----------



## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

boots said:


> While I understand it is aggravating to get some many different opinions and be told so many different methods, it does fascinate me. Just this example shows how adaptable the horse is to its' interactions with humans. And how consistent handling and cues get results.


I agree that it is very, very interesting. I was actually quite perplexed by the amount of variety I saw between three trainers, all located around the same area. Two of which perform in the same discipline.

Unfortunately it's very frustrating for me when I get little to no consistency from the various trainers and riders. Every one tells me to try something new and forget everything the other taught me due to some training bias is is often seen in the horse world.

I currently use a lot of half halts on my outside rein with a tickle of the inside rein. This method works well for my horse who likes to stick her head back up any chance she gets.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

being on the bit, and collection, are not the same thing.

and correct riding does come from behind. but a precourser to being on the bit is having a connection to the bit, and that, I think, is what the OP is asking about. if yoiu have no connection to the bit, and the horse has not been highly trained to the point where putting leg on and holding with your seat will be enough to make him move in collection on his own, you must have a connection to the bit, through your hands. you cannot ride back to front if you allow everthing to just fall out the front.

so, while you absolutely must have forward (it's almost always the answer to every problem), you also need to learn how to dialogue , as Faye said, with the mouth, via the hand / bit.
that's why I dislike see sawing; it is not a dialogue because you aren't "listening" to what sort of response your horse will give your lightest of requests with your hand. you are just Nah!nah! nah! rythmically shouting at him. a very soft "sponging" , as long as you dont just , say, sponge in the same relentless , rythmic fashion of the see saw, is more like "asking". it is like you saying, "ok? are you there?" and the horse gives minutely, and says, "Yes. what do you want?" then, whatever you are asking, with leg or seat, will come through much better.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The most condensed and tightly worded description on how to use the reins properly that I know of is found in the US Cavalry manual, section 26. It it is reproduced in pages 190-204 in "American Military Horsemanship". It includes words like sawing and vibrations, but it explains why and how (one page reproduced below):








​ 
The book is available on Amazon:

American Military Horsemanship: The Military Riding Seat of the United States Cavalry, 1792 through 1944: James Ottevaere: 9781420855524: Amazon.com: Books

The main thing I took away from the manual is that I have neither the training nor the feel to put a horse 'on the bit'. I would need quality instruction and time on a horse who already knew how to do it, plus lots of practice, before I had any business trying to teach it to my horse. And yes, it is a precursor to achieving significant levels of collection. Since my riding doesn't require significant collection, I don't need to put a horse on the bit anyways. But if you want a good description of what needs to be done, in what order and why, then the book I've quoted is well worth the <$13 price at Amazon. At a minimum, it describes what you are and are not trying to do and makes it obvious why it is so easy to do it badly...:?


----------



## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Sorry but that manual describes exactly what you don't want to do!
It perfectly describes how to seesaw on the bit and what they achieve by that is not a true softening of the jaw but a dropping of the contact when the horse comes behind the bit as an avoidance!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Well, the guy mostly responsible for that manual studied for a year at Samur and a year at Tor di Quinto. He competed in the 1920 Olympics and in 1928, when he was captain of the US team. In 1932 he won a Silver medal as an individual and helped the US team take a gold. He taught at the Cavalry School and is in the US Show Jumping Hall of Fame.

Harry Chamberlin | U.S. Horsemanship

Since I have no desire to put a horse 'on the bit', I can't give any personal experience. It may be that taking one page out of 14 is unfair to Chamberlin's advice, however...Chamberlin's qualifications as both a rider and instructor are pretty solid. He worked with hundreds if not thousands of professional cavalry riders - and their horses.


----------



## TakeTwoBasket (Mar 11, 2015)

I think the real issue with understanding and teaching collection to riders stims from the fact that too few people really understand the body mechanics of the horse. 

The entire system of collection and riding back to front depends on the physicallity of the horse it's self. I have been riding for 17 years and 15 of those years are in dressage. I trained with numerous certified Dressage judges and although many of my trainers were both knowledgable and skilled it was NEVER explained to me WHAT exactly we were trying to achieve.

I understood that i needed to get my horses rump to drop and his shoulders to lift and that eventually it would improve the overall ride. i understood that this was an expected part of my sport and that it was considered the "correct way" to ride a horse. I also understood that if i put my leg here and moved my hips this way and my hands that way a trained horse would give me the correct responses but the whole concept of collection still remained the foggy concept of "otherness" that still never really made sense. some days we nailed it, others i couldn't get 2 steps in a row that felt correct and I could never understand where to disconnect was or what to do to fix the issue.

a few years ago, I was at my wits end with my TB mare and we were at the point of improve or quit. every ride was a fight and i couldn't find the solution. Then i started training with Celena Pentrak. She was the first trainer who sat down and actually explained what EXACTLY we where doing to my horses body by moving this rein like that or that leg like this. she also gave me a great book called Horses in Motion. It has all these pictures of horses being ridden and worked but an artist has painted first the skeleton and then the nerves and musculature on to the animal being ridden in the correct anatomical positions. reading through that book combined with Celena's patient answers for my NEVER ending questions allowed me to finaly understand the effect of each of my moves and body positions and allowed me to understand the mechanics of the animal underneath me. 

I grew from the rider who was always running to my trainer saying "we fixed this problem but now my little devil is doing this..." to a rider who had enough tools in her own tool box to observe new behaviors, understand what my mare was trying to tell me and move forward in such a way as to correct the issue. 

I truely believe that we spend too much time in the equesterian world focusing on the abstract concept of "move like this and it is a cure all for your problems" and dont teach people to truely understand the anatomly and physoloigy of the animal we are riding. 

I am not saying you need to ace an anatomy class or be able to name every muscle and bone in the body, but understanding where and how their muscles and bones are placed and how our weight and actions affect those structures can really clear up a lot of the "mystery" that surrounds this issue.


----------



## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

He worked with cavalry horses nearly 100 years ago bsms! If you look at pictures of dressage horses back then and ones now you will see a vast difference!
Understanding of a horse and their movement and training has moved on somewhat!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Having a horse working correctly (for English) on the bit will mean that the top line muscles develop really well and with the maximum effect for carrying a person. A horse moving in a "hollowed" fashion will probably have a back showing tension and braced. Riding a horse with light hands that is capable of collection with power and direction in a balanced way is a pure joy, the horse is willing, no resistance or force and works in harmony. Not all riders achieve this including top dressage riders where harmony sometimes seems to be forgotten.

I have a friend who has a horse who was failing to use his back correctly , failing to round and soften and it was very interesting to see a beautifully developed neck muscle but just above the wither on the neck the muscle was lacking and along his back - a result of the horse not lowering the head, and working through the back but bracing in part.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

faye said:


> He worked with cavalry horses nearly 100 years ago bsms! If you look at pictures of dressage horses back then and ones now you will see a vast difference!
> Understanding of a horse and their movement and training has moved on somewhat!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He was writing about how to get a horse on the bit. Not "How to get warmblood horses to win dressage".

We do understand more about horse's movements now. For example, we know they do not round up their back. We know their back never forms an arch, and that collection does not make it easier for a horse to carry weight. We know the motion of the back is vastly more complex than a weight carrying suspension line, and much of the movement involves controlling the thrust developed by the back legs into useful motion. We've measured when various muscle groups contract during motion, and know the tummy does not contract to lift the back. But that is all irrelevant to what the Cavalry taught.

The US Cavalry manual was not written to win dressage. Chamberlin once wrote, "For the most part, a high state of collection is totally unnecessary, and except with the most finished rider is the proverbial razor in the hands of a monkey."

But he did believe in getting a horse soft and responsive to the bit. Based on what he wrote, it seems he believed that started with the jaw - if the jaw was tense, you could not get a truly soft poll. Once you trained the horse to have a soft jaw, THEN you could start work on softening at the poll. When the poll was soft, you could work on softening the neck and only then could the back be used to best effect.

On the page just prior to the one of fourteen that I posted, the Cavalry wrote, ""This softening or flexion of the jaw should always precede the arching, or "direct flexion" of the neck at the poll, which will be discussed later."

And why do any of this? "On the other hand, if the articulations of the jaw and poll are supple, they become an intermediary between the hindquarters and the bit, and by their elasticity not only lessen the thrust of the mass driven onto the hand by the hind legs, but also join its force to that of the fingers, thus allowing the latter to control the hind legs, while remaining light in their action."

A western rider said (paraphrased from memory) 'If the horse won't give you his face willingly, you won't control any of the rest either". That doesn't mean you ride the front, as so many English and Western riders do (and in honesty, as I normally do), but it does mean a horse who is resisting and tense in the jaw, face and neck will not be relaxed, supple and responsive with the rest of his body. 

Looking at my own horse, Mia has become very 'soft' - quickly and gently yielding - laterally. She is not soft in the vertical. I think the lateral responsiveness is responsible for much of her improvement in calmness and spooking less, but I need to get her softer in the vertical to get her to the next level. I do NOT want her to carry her head vertically, let alone BTV. That isn't prudent for riding in the desert. But I need to work with her to make her more responsive, soft and yielding in the vertical if I want a calmer, less spooky horse moving with confidence.

While this discussion was started coming from a dressage approach, the underlying principles involve all riding. The answer for my approach to riding will not look like 'dressage', but it needs to result in a soft, willing, responsive horse moving fluidly - and not just laterally. She will never be ridden in a collected gait or have a high degree of collection. That just doesn't work for what we do. She is going to be ridden mostly with some slack in the reins - but a horse can be ridden like that AND be responsive and light laterally and vertically. Trying to get there has me reading some of the dressage books I own, the Cavalry manual, Chamberlin...and thinking about how to integrate those ideas into my approach to riding western with my mare.

Chamberlin's experience is not something that only applies to a certain breed of horses in 1930. What he learned at Samur and Tor di Quinto and how he saw it carried out by hundreds of cavalry officers in the year long Cavalry program still applies - they are still horses and we are still riders.

If someone is 'sawing' their horse's head to get it vertical, then sawing is wrong. But just because something can be done wrong doesn't mean it is never right, either. As in many things riding, HOW and WHY you do it, and to what end, are critical to getting the right result.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Wait! Who says the tummy dies not contract to lift the back, or that it dies not lift? I see both of thise things happen every time the horse manures.


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

bsms said:


> Looking at my own horse, Mia has become very 'soft' - quickly and gently yielding - laterally. She is not soft in the vertical. I think the lateral responsiveness is responsible for much of her improvement in calmness and spooking less, but I need to get her softer in the vertical to get her to the next level. I do NOT want her to carry her head vertically, let alone BTV. That isn't prudent for riding in the desert. But I need to work with her to make her more responsive, soft and yielding in the vertical if I want a calmer, less spooky horse moving with confidence.
> .


 
The head should never be in the vertical, but always slightly in front of it. Vertical is incorrect. In very high level actions it may come more into the vertical but this should not be the norm.

It is a great shame that so many riders think vertical is the aim instead in front of the vertical.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> Wait! Who says the tummy dies not contract to lift the back, or that it dies not lift? I see both of thise things happen every time the horse manures.


A horse pooping isn't exactly the same as a horse cantering or trotting._Conclusions

1.) The muscles we might think would act to make the spine move, actually work most of the time to dampen excessive spinal movement caused by other factors. The longissimus dorsi and rectus abdominis are active at phases in the stride opposite to what we might expect.

2.) The longissimus dorsi is a segmented muscle and doesn't act as all at one time. Different segments at different levels of the spine contract at different times and seem to have different effects in terms of the amount of lateral bending versus flexion/extension. The conclusion in one study (3) was "the mechanical function of the longissimus dorsi should not be considered as a general property that is applicable to the whole muscle, but instead varies between segments, between locomotor conditions and is under the control of the central nervous system."

3.) Different gaits, speeds, amount of incline, etc. all affect when and how much activity exists in the longissimus dorsi and the rectus abdominis. It just ain't real simple!! And that is the truth about all biological systems. They are WAY more complicated in how they act than in how they first appear. We just know the tip of the iceberg of what there is to discover._

Back movement and muscle contractions​Also:

Yup, riding a horse does make his back extend...

There is also some good info on this website:

Equine Back Research_"The involvement of the horse’s vertebral column into gaits and performances is more about muscles creating and orchestrating forces than muscles moving vertebrae. For centuries, horses have been forced to execute movements of the back that their vertebral column was not designed to create. In fact, they did not increase the range of motion of their vertebral column for the very simple reason that their vertebral column mechanism does not allow greater movement. Instead, they found ways to compensate for the incongruity of their riders’ demand. The best horses did not increase the amplitude of their vertebral column’s movement but instead, the subtle coordination of forces, giving to the rider an impression of ease that the rider interpreted as relaxation, stretching, swinging back and other misconceptions."_​A horse does not 'collect' to deal with weight. If one took a well trained dressage horse and put on a 375 lb rider, the horse would not move with a collected gait to compensate. Nor is the back the only thing a horse needs to protect from weight. A horse faced with a heavier load changes it stride, leaving each foot on the ground longer while adjusting stride length. A rigid back protects the spinal chord until the surrounding muscles strengthen enough to handle the load. A 'hollow' back is primarily a rigid back, and the horse is doing it in self defense until it develops the strength and coordination to move without it.

A highly collected horse is much like a ballerina: a trained athlete using its strength and working very hard to create the illusion of effortless motion...but the motion is hard work. That is why one does not teach a horse collection in a few rides, and why there is a training scale with collection at the top, not the bottom. If it made it easier to move, it would be the base instead of the pinnacle.



Clava said:


> The head should never be in the vertical, but always slightly in front of it....


Actually, the horse needs to move its head in order to see well - both in terms of binocular vision and in terms of visual acuity. A horse with its head in the vertical (or slightly in front) has its best vision near its feet, which is fine for some things but not helpful if trotting across the desert. Any approach to training a horse that requires a certain head position in the end is one that will not be helpful to me in riding a horse outside an arena. I need my horse free to see, which requires a free head. I need my horse ready to yield in the vertical, but not always carrying her head slightly in front of the vertical.


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

A horse with his head slightly infront of the vertical with an open throat latch can see where he is going and is not looking at the ground in front of his feet, it is looking forward where it is going.


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> Wait! Who says the tummy dies not contract to lift the back, or that it dies not lift? I see both of thise things happen every time the horse manures.


 
Scroll down on this page, there is a good section on abdominal muscles 

::: Sustainable Dressage - Collection & Its Evasions - True Collection - What It Is and How to Achieve It :::

and quite a lot about collection and how the head should be up (poll highest) and in front of the vertical with an open throat latch.


----------



## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

bsms said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, definitely one of those things that, added to all the other things we hear, can be confusing.

I see nothing at all wrong with the advice, but it's VERY UNFORTUNATE that the word "sawing" was used. Slipping a snaffle bit gently about 1 inch from side to side, with utmost care and tact, is how good riders, with good, independent seats, can mobilize the jaw, and effect a submissive, but active communication with the horse.

As for the back, I feel, in collection it does not lift so much as "hold firm" like we do with our own core, which is necessary when increasing the compression of the joints, which can only be done safely when the legs come under the body, not being strung out behind--- in other words, I think it all works together. Collection is for the beauty of it, not usefulness. I don't think you can have real collection unless ALL PARTS are working together, including a relaxed jaw. (Which I believe IS possible without a bit. But maybe impossible to SCHOOL without a bit.)


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Collection is not for the beauty of the ting , it is entirely for the usefulness as far as I'm concerned. My horse needs to be listening to me and ready to go where I ask and that requires softness, obedience and great balance.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Very well put, Beling! Sawing, as I usually see it done, is a horrible practice. I suspect, however, that it was also far less common in the 30s. I suspect Chamberlin would have pulled a trooper out of the saddle for acting the way some do it today. I like what you said about the back and all parts working in unison, too!

From what I've read, it could accurately be said that a horse moving collected will have a back that sags less than on who is not collected...but the total range of motion is around 2 inches, IIRC. The back's most important job is protecting the spinal chord. A bucking horse, for example, still does not round its back noticeably. It just isn't what the back does: 










"_A horse with his head slightly infront of the vertical with an open throat latch can see where he is going and is not looking at the ground in front of his feet..._"

Not really. Depends on speed and how well the horse needs to see something. There is a narrow horizontal area in the horse's eye that has about 100 times the concentration of ganglia. The horse can be thought of as having poor vision almost everywhere and relatively good vision (20/33) in a very small area. ("The Nature of Horses", chapter 5, less than $3 on Amazon) That allows it to spot motion and potential threats virtually 360 deg, but it needs to move its head to see with some precision.

Day in, day out, this would be Mia's normal headset:










IIRC, in my avatar, she had just noticed a car and lifted her head to see it better. That is OK for my riding. I ride mostly because I enjoy her company, and I'd rather walk along with her traveling WITH me rather than UNDER me. It might contribute to some of her spookiness, but I'd rather have her spook sometimes than restrict her participation on the ride. 

I'm not saying anyone else has to ride like that. It reflects what I want out of riding. But I want her to be more responsive and giving in the vertical. If I then need her to drop her nose, I can have her do so the same way she'll currently bring her head around sideways in response to my pinkie.

In that respect, I agree with an article I read a long time ago about 'on the bit' really meaning 'listening to and responsive to cues'. I want her to consistently drop a gear or halt because I've lifted my one hand a few inches higher, and that change in balance on the reins will be all it takes because she is as ready to do what I ask in speed as she currently is in direction.

It is a hole in her training, and holes are to be expected when a beginning rider and a very green horse learn riding together. I don't want a 'dressage horse', but I think dressage and English riding and a long dead Cavalry officer can still help me reach my goals with my very un-English and non-dressage approach to riding.

Collection and collected gaits, involving a shift in balance toward the rear and a lifting of the withers, has very little to do with responsiveness. My horse can do a 180 on a 6' wide path so fast the poleys on an Australian saddle will bruise my thighs, and do it starting on the forehand. We can do figure 8s on the same trail while waiting for another horse to catch up...and she'll do it fine without 'collection'. She usually rates her speed fine too, but not nearly as well as she responds laterally.

This horse is incredibly responsive, although he is not collected:


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

> Collection and collected gaits, involving a shift in balance toward the rear and a lifting of the withers, has very little to do with responsiveness


 The shifting of the balance allows the horse to respond in a variety of gaits, to open the movement easily. A horse on the forehand (weight on shoulders and head down) will never be able to respond with an elevated ground covering trot, but it will be able to respond by moving quickly forward fast. With a responsive horse on the bit you have the responsive choice of both (fast or fast and elevated or slow or slow and elevated), the best of both worlds. If you are not interested in affecting how your horse moves to that degree, if you just want a trail horse then it is not an issue, for me I want all the gaits (up and out and forward etc) even when out hacking so I require a greater degree of responsiveness than just reactivity. I also want a strong (core strengthen horse) that is not hollow and weaker.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The only time sawing was acceptable in the riding world I grew up in was one of the tools in your box to try to stop a horse that was bolting with you


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

My horse will trot fast just fine. She will not trot collected, which is also fine. I have no need to be elevated beyond her already 15.2 withers nor see why she should work harder so I could feel that way. But of course, many folks enjoy riding a collected gait, and they are welcome in my book to train a horse to provide one. Mia has a beautifully smooth western jog, which had nothing to do with any training, and it is fun to ride.

There is no false choice between "collected" and "hollow". There is in fact a wide range of balances that result in neither. A horse is not "weaker" because it is not trained to do a collected gait. The cutting horse pictured above is very strong and fit, but it is not trained to provide a collected gait any more than a dressage warmblood is trained to move like a cutting horse.

A horse can be responsive and obedient and willing without having its face near vertical. It can be supple and agile without a collected gait or being "on the bit". And it isn't a matter of 'just a trail horse'. Apart from the fact that a good trail horse is a darn good horse by itself, many competitive horses do not need a vertical face or a true collected gait.

Training a horse to be responsive to the bit both laterally and vertically does not require a desired end goal of a collected gait with raised shoulders and a vertical face. The FEI seems to define "on the bit" that way, but I think "on the bit" can be transposed into general riding as "responsive to cues" - a form in which it applies to all riding.


----------



## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I've been taking hunter jumper lessons and have thus put a lot of thought into this lately. A couple things I think are very important.

1. Practicality. All horses are different. Some have higher neck sets, some short stocky necks with thick throat latches, others flexible thin necks. Some are athletes by nature, others not. Asking a non athletic, thick, high necked, thick throat latched horse to drop his head as low as a hunter and tuck his nose in will be difficult if not entirely impossible. You'll have a frustrated rider and a very uncomfortable, angry horse. Same with asking for a horse to move uphill when it's extremely downhill in build. For goodness sakes, LOOK AT THE HORSE.

2. Fitness. I hate, hate, HATE all these crazy English riders who hop on and expect the head to be tucked in the first two rides with no concern to fitness. I see this over and over. Leave the head alone until the body is fit enough to do what you ask. There would be so many more happy, willing horses with soft mouths if people would stop all the yanking and lunging in side reins on horses that can't even trot a controlled circle yet.

If people would look at these two things first, then worry about collection and where the heads at, you would have a lot happier, more cooperative horses
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

bsms said:


> My horse will trot fast just fine. She will not trot collected, which is also fine. I have no need to be elevated beyond her already 15.2 withers nor see why she should work harder so I could feel that way. But of course, many folks enjoy riding a collected gait, and they are welcome in my book to train a horse to provide one. Mia has a beautifully smooth western jog, which had nothing to do with any training, and it is fun to ride.
> 
> There is no false choice between "collected" and "hollow". There is in fact a wide range of balances that result in neither. A horse is not "weaker" because it is not trained to do a collected gait. The cutting horse pictured above is very strong and fit, but it is not trained to provide a collected gait any more than a dressage warmblood is trained to move like a cutting horse.
> 
> ...


 You missed my point, elevated gaits are nothing to do with being higher, it is just a different gait and that is the responsiveness I require, being able t tap into all gaits and having a horse that responds in all of them is simply an amazing feeling. No horses need riders, so in that sense no horses need to be on the bit, but I prefer a horse that can and the incredible feeling it gives whether I a out on a trail, hunting or doing a bit of dressage.

Heads are not near vertical, but in front of vertical with an open throat latch to be correct.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

WillowNightwind said:


> *Warning! This thread is LONG may induce some serious debate, let's not tear each other's heads off. Skip to the TLDR if you don't want to read my wall of text*
> 
> I entered the show ring for the first time this weekend. My mare and I did English Pleasure (placed 6th) and English Equitation (placed 2nd). After asking the judge for feedback in the Pleasure class, what I was told was exactly what I was expecting: "Your horse carries her head a bit higher than desired in a Pleasure class, as the idea is to show off a horse who is a pleasure to ride. If your horse has a high head carriage, it gives the impression she isn't relaxed." Aka, get your horse's head down and in a frame.
> 
> ...


This is a long thread, so I have not even read the rest of the responses, but will just reply directly to your post
"on the bit' is desired in English, but doe snot mean that the horse is not ridden back to front, but rather has rein support always to some extent, with the horse actually learning to rely on that bit contact, far as framing up, and moving collected
My views comes from a person whose primary discipline is western, not English, although I do show my 'more finished horses' all around, thus English, and have won under open English judges, as well as HUS, breed shows.
This is the correct training sequence, far as what works for me

First, you get correct movement, riding back to front, and suppleness in the entire body, which does include knowing how to give at the poll and in the face, with light bit contact, but NEVER with trying to create a head 
set
Level at which a horse carries his head and neck, is dependent on conformation, and has nothing to do with collection
However, if a horse carries his head high, nose out, he will also have a hollowed back
Thus correct head carriage eventually just falls into place, getting that correct movement from behind, having the horse learn to keep shoulders up, not head
I use neither see sawing or half halts, but rather drive ahorse up from behind, just holding abit barrier, and when that horse feels soft in my hands, rewarding by release, expecting that horse to stay correct, fixing as needed, rinse and repeat.
Of course, I show my horses western first, but once they learn that self carriage, where they stay in frame, move collected and at the speed asked for, mainly off of seat and legs, it is very, very easy for me to add some light bit contact, length stride, and get them shown English. The opposte is not true, far as showing a horse western, that has always had bit conaCT and support.
Without seeing your horse go, hard to tell if he could be hollowing out, raising head, or moving correctly, as per his conformation, and the way his neck ties into his body


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

bsms said:


> My horse will trot fast just fine. *She will not trot collected, which is also fine. I* have no need to be elevated beyond her already 15.2 withers nor see why she should work harder so I could feel that way. But of course, many folks enjoy riding a collected gait, and they are welcome in my book to train a horse to provide one. Mia has a beautifully smooth western jog, which had nothing to do with any training, and it is fun to ride.
> I bet she can. a very good rider could get more from her than you imagine she has. it's always that way; we average riders underestimate our horses abilities because WE cannot get more.
> you may not want her to move in a collected manner, but I bet you she is very capable of it. hroses that play in the pasture and come to a quick halt, gather under themselves, and push off , are "collected", as it has more to do with landing and pushing off of a bent hock, and having the abdominals engaged such that the pelvis tuckes under, similar to how they move when they poo. where they put there head will be what ever works best for them in the NON static state of balance they are moving in, but the shoulders will also likely raise (or rahter, it feels like the shoulders raise, but really it's base of the neck , the lower bend of the "S" bend of the neck)
> There is no false choice between "collected" and "*hollow*". There is in fact a wide range of balances that result in neither. A horse is not "weaker" because it is not trained to do a collected gait. The cutting horse pictured above is very strong and fit, but it is not trained to provide a collected gait any more than a dressage warmblood is trained to move like a cutting horse.
> ...



and, the horse you showed in the overhead photo of a cutting horse WAS collected. his hocks were bent , coiled and ready to lift or push, as required. a lot of 'collection' is about having the horse move in such a posture as he is ready to either accelerate or decellerate, and in a responsive manner.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bSMs, of course that cutting horse is collected, weight rocked back on hocks, thus front end light and maneuverable 
Were that horse, instead, dumped on his front end, there is no way in 'h''l he could control that cow!
Just because a horse knows how to move collected and in frame, does not mean that is the way you aLways ride that horse,esp trail riding' I certainly don;'t ask my show horses, that understanD how to move coLlected, to go that way down a traIL!
Point being, when I do put legs on them, it means more than speed up, but to drive deeper, while giving in the face and poll, compressing that energy generated in the back, while staying light in my hands, thus off of the forehand
Horses lift their back by contracting their abdominal muscles, and a bucking horse actually has a great deal of collection
You are confusing collection, with head carriage, which can be part of the total picture of collection, esp in rail events, but you can certainly have head set without collection
As for a 'great western pleasure jog-that jog is collected. It is not just about the speed, but rather that very even swing of the alternate front and back legs, moving in rhythm like a pendulum, hocks engaged, shoulders up, allowing the horse to hold a distinct cadence, with a very regular one two, one two beat, resulting from slow legged movement and llift'


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> and, the horse you showed in the overhead photo of a cutting horse WAS collected. his hocks were bent , coiled and ready to lift or push, as required. a lot of 'collection' is about having the horse move in such a posture as he is ready to either accelerate or decellerate, and in a responsive manner.


No. Collection has a meaning, and that picture does not match it. Collection involves BOTH a shift in weight to the rear *AND* and an elevation of the withers - an elevation that creates the illusion of a 'rounded back'.

These horses are NOT collected. They are athletic, and responsive, and ready to move with power...but not collected:



















That is why a cutting horse doesn't use the dressage training scale, and why you don't put him "on the bit" before teaching him to cut cattle.

"_hroses that play in the pasture and come to a quick halt, gather under themselves, and push off , are "collected", as it has more to do with landing and pushing off of a bent hock, and having the abdominals engaged such that the pelvis tuckes under, similar to how they move when they poo_."

Again, incorrect. That is not what collection refers to. A horse pooping is not a collected horse. And ANY horse can momentarily transfer weight to the rear and elevate the shoulders. Yes, Mia does that if she spins a 180 on a narrow trail, either because I ask her to or back when she was spooking. But 2-3 seconds of that requires no special training, no athleticism, no putting the horse on the bit and could be taught in a single ride. That is not "collection".

As for "hollow", the tense and rigid back is what a horse does to protect its spine and back muscles from unexpected weight or pressure. It is a defensive reaction. But saying "hollow or collected" is a false dilemma. A horse can be heavy on the forehand and not hollow. A horse can hollow its back with weight on his rear legs. A hollowed back is a bad sign, but a forward weight distribution ranges from normal to good - a perfectly normal horse has a 57:43 balance front:back.

"_if the horse does not gain carrying strengt in the hind joints, then more concussive force is applied to the front. our job is to do what we can to minimize that and ride as easily as possible._"

Horses are MEANT to carry more weight on the front than back. That is what they evolved to do. It is completely normal. That is one reason why teaching "collection" requires time and strengthening...because it is UNNATURAL for a horse to sustain more weight on the rear.

To minimize concussive force, a HORSE will already do things we do not control:"To study the biomechanical effects of loads, the Cal State researchers trotted five Arabians at a consistent speed on a treadmill under three different conditions: on the level with no load, on a 10 percent incline with no load, and on the level while carrying a saddle and weights that totaled about 19 percent of their body mass. To record the motion and speed of the horses' foot movements, an accelerometer was attached to the right hind hoof, and the sessions were recorded with a high-speed video camera.

Carrying a load caused the horses to leave their feet on the ground an average of 7.7 percent longer than they did while trotting unburdened. On the level, the addition of a load caused the swing phase of the stride to become 3 percent shorter, but going uphill this phase of stride lasted 6 percent longer.

In short, explains Wickler, carrying a load causes a horse to shorten his stride, leave his feet on the ground longer and increase the distance his body travels (the "step length") with each stride. All of these gait adjustments work together to reduce the forces placed on the legs with each step. "Forces are damaging," says Wickler, "so keeping the foot on the ground reduces peak forces and reduces that potential for injury." 

- See more at: How Much Weight Can Your Horse Safely Carry? | EquiSearch​They do that because it works to reduce impact, unlike collection. You can't teach a horse to do it, but it will do it in response to carrying a heavier load. In like manner, I will quickly adjust how I walk or trot as you put a heavier backpack on me. Like a horse, I will instinctively seek relief from damaging stresses.

For balance, there are roughly 3 schools of thought:

1 - Forward seat. The rider shifts his weight forward to put it over the horse's natural center of gravity (roughly the withers).

2 - Dressage. The horse is taught to shift its balance to the rear, to put it under the rider.

3 - Western. Accepts a center of gravity behind the horse's for most purposes since it is helpful if your horse needs to make quick stops or turn swiftly, and because the saddle is designed to distribute weight further back. When I used a forward seat in my SouthernTrails saddle, I had uneven sweat marks. To ride balanced in that saddle tree, I needed to get 'on my pockets'. When I did that, my horse was happier and the sweat marks beautifully even. That would not be true in an Australian saddle.

Pretty much any horse can handle being ridden in mostly straight lines in a W/T/C/G, regardless of the rider's weight distribution. Repeatedly turning or holding weight too far to the rear or being pushed beyond its genetic potential by competitors will damage the horse. The key to longevity and health in a horse isn't high collection, but staying within the genetic limits of the horse's conformation.

Bucking horses are not collected. Nor do horses move around lifting their backs by tightening their tummy muscles. We KNOW they do not because we've measured when various muscles tighten while moving - and the results don't match the theory. So discard the theory!

Collection is NOT merely a shift in balance, and certainly not a momentary shift in balance.

If you want to redefine collection to mean any shift of weight to the rear, then I can teach a horse to collect itself in about 5 minutes. Maybe 1. I won't need a bit, either. But until the FEI agrees to redefine collection, a bucking horse or cutting horse is not collected.

"_You are confusing collection, with head carriage_"

Absolutely not. I have never said collection is about head carriage, although a collected horse (per the FEI) will not also have its nose extended. I was re-reading a book by Chamberlin about training jumpers, and he used the term 'natural collection' to refer to a state of balance more toward the rear but without the rest of the FEI/dressage definition. Using his terminology, a horse CAN have an extended nose with 'natural colleciton', but not high collection. Littauer used 'gather' for that level of weight transfer that did not involve the rest of what dressage strives to do. But per the FEI definition, a collected gait will ALSO have a horse whose nose is not extended.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

For the sake of communication, I'm using these definitions:





































www.*fei*.org/sites/default/files/DRE-Rules_2015_GA%20approved_black.pdf
 
If someone uses a different definition, then for the sake of clarity and reasoned discussion, I need to know the definitions being used. The above definitions do not allow a bucking horse to be called "collected".


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

A western pleasure horse is collected, but certainly not on the bit
A reining horse, performing a sliding stop, is collected


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Another opinion, defining collection, and as it relates to events like cutting:

Collection also makes it easier for a horse to make sudden changes of direction, such as those required by western performance horses. Cutting horses are excellent examples, as they crouch low and back on their hindquarters so they may quickly move side to side to mirror the movements of the calf.

Collection in the wild horse:
*Collection and the wild horse*

Collection of the horse's body is an important mechanism for survival. If danger suddenly appears the horse has a large store of energy ready for instantaneous release and so it is much easier for it to spring away from the danger than if it had been caught flat-footed, or "on the forehand."
When a strange horse comes upon the scene, when a horse catches the scent of a predator, or when a horse scents a potential mate, the attention of the horse is naturally aroused and its body prepares for action. It raises its head, arches its back, and in so doing brings its legs more under its body where they can maintain the bending of the spine by their contact with the earth. With each step forward this spring is released slightly and then immediately re-compressed.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

From Dr Deb Bennett, on true collection:

When the horse “looks through the bridle” he contracts his underline and
stretches his topline


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Also from Dr Deb Bennett, concerning cutting horses:

Cutting:
 Unique among competitive
specialists, the cutting horse is valued
primarily for offering all movements once
he’s “hooked on” to a calf. But a horse
cannot turn back faster than a calf unless
the horse has the ability to achieve
collection and lighten his forehand. The
cutting horse’s entire performance must be
in self-carriage, or he will lose in this intense
game of “zone defence.” The breeding of
easily collectable phenotypes is very
important in this as in all working-stock
divisions, but even horses with tons of
“cow” must undergo extensive initial work
in bowel or snaffle to supple, straighten and
strengthen. During this work, contact is
closer. The finished horse can then be
shown on an absolutely loose rein

Perhaps, BSM. broaden your definition of collection beyond dressage. I think Dr Deb Bennett is uniquely qualified to judge collection and how it is achieved!


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I guess the problem is that "collection" means different things to different people. It makes communication difficult, particularly written communication. I liked VS Littauer's phrasing. He distinguished between "gathering", which was a shift in balance to the rear for a short time, and "collection", which he reserved for the dressage definition. All horses need to be able to gather themselves, but not all need dressage-like collection. Chamberlin tried to use "natural collection" to describe "gathering".

I wish there was a word that meant, specifically, either short-term balance shifts, or shifts in balance to the rear without elevating the shoulders. I usually try to distinguish between "collected gaits" (using it for dressage type higher collection) and "brief collection" (short term shifts in balance to the rear). But since there is not standard terminology that I know of, it doesn't always work. :?


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...Perhaps, BSM. broaden your definition of collection beyond dressage. I think Dr Deb Bennett is uniquely qualified to judge collection and how it is achieved!


I have a low opinion of Dr Deb Bennett. I don't think she is qualified to judge very much, based on what I read on her website a few years back. Did you know barrel racers compete in 2-point? Neither did I...but Bennett says they do. I spent a few hours reading her comments on a variety of subjects and concluded she is often wrong.

"When the horse “looks through the bridle” he contracts his underline and Stretches his topline"

Horses do not contract their tummy muscles to stretch or raise the topline while moving. They tighten their tummy muscles to control the tummy organs.

But if one wants a genuine definition of "collection", the FEI is a good place to start. If they use it for anything other than dressage-like collection, I haven't seen it.

And since this thread started by discussing 'on the bit', I used collection in the FEI/dressage sense - which is where 'on the bit' is normally used.


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

bsms said:


> Horses do not contract their tummy muscles to stretch or raise the topline while moving. They tighten their tummy muscles to control the tummy organs.
> 
> .


This is incorrect. Horse really do tighten stomach muscles to engage topline of back muscles, exactly the same way we tighten our core stomach muscles to support our back muscles when lifting something or firming the back against pressure. When a horse is going something like a piaffe, even when showing off loose in a field, you can clearly see the muscle line of the stomach engage and tightened.

Just looking at my avatar pic you can see the muscle engaged


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Clava, I've posted the results of studies that hooked electrodes up to the muscles and compared the tension in the muscle to the video of the horse moving through time. The result showed the tummy muscles do not contract at the proper time for them to be used to lift the back or rider. They are used consistent with needing to control the weight of the gut.

" The concept of driving the horse onto the bit is based on the bow and string concept. This concept is antiquated and inaccurate. L. J. Slijper, 1946, compared the back as a bow and the abdominal muscles as a string. According to Slijper, shortening the string would flex the bow. This picture illustrates the impracticality of the bow and string concept. Rectus abdominis muscles do not have the capacity of flexing the bow. They can assist the flexion but they don’t have the mass, the strength and the power to flex the mass of the back epaxial and hypaxial muscles. The main function of the rectus abdominis is stabilizing the GI track."

oversimplifications










"We finished off the last post in this series by saying "So if we just went with how things look like they should work, then the longissimus dorsi, the serratus dorsalis, the iliocostalis and the multifidus should be contracting as the back extends, and the sublumbar muscles and the abdominal muscles, including the rectus abdominis, should be contracting when the back is flexing." But is this really so? Well, here's what fancy technology has discovered...

...Once again, just like when we learned that horses sometimes breathe out when their chest is expanding, the ideas we have of how things have to work based on how they look is incorrect, because things are much more complicated in real life than they look like they should be...

...The conclusion these and other researchers have come to is that these muscles, which can and do induce the back movements we expect when they are stimulated to contract bilaterally, don't actually work that way during normal movements of the horse. It isn't really the activity of these muscles which causes the back to flex and extend. It is a lot of other factors.

One paper (1) suggests that "the back extension may be attributed to the accelerations applied to the mass of abdominal viscera. This extension force is counterbalanced by the activity of the rectus abdominis muscle. In this way, this muscle supports the abdominal viscera and limits the back extension." Remember how the gut sloshes front and back in the abdomen at the canter and gallop, putting pressure on the diaphragm and affecting the breathing? Well, it also has weight and will move up and down, especially at the more pounding gait of the trot compared to the walk. So the legs hit and stop the main skeleton from going down too fast, but the gut, surrounded and held up by the abdominal muscles, keeps heading towards the ground. This causes the back to extend, but that movement is limited by the abdominal muscles, especially the rectus abdominis."

Back movement and muscle contractions

This discussion has gone well away from the concern posted. I brought up a couple of books about putting a horse 'on the bit' because I think an accurate description of how to do it well takes at least 15 pages, and probably much more. Anything that can fit in a paragraph is too simplified to be accurate. Something like 'sawing" probably can be useful, but only if used in the manner and for the limited goals stated by those teaching it. Simply sawing on the horse's mouth to create a headset is repulsive.

I don't desire to put my horse 'on the bit' as defined by the FEI, but I think some of the techniques used could be applied to my horse. Maybe. I've got more reading and thinking to do before I change things. My needs and desires are not the needs and desires of others, and that is fine. Anyone who wants to pursue a high degree of collection in their horse is welcome to do so. I have no objection of any kind to someone using Dressage.

However, we limit ourselves as riders and do our horses no favors by ignoring what we have learned in the last 50 years, as we've developed the instruments needed to correct the impression our eyes and butts gave us in the past. We won't learn if we won't face contradictions squarely.


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

This horse is incredibly responsive, although he is not collected:








[/QUOTE]

An undeniable expert in the Western world, Tom McCutcheon, explains how he wants his horses "collected". The FEI *dressage* term does not necessarily mean the exact same thing for all disciplines. The FEI has 8 different disciplines with 8 different sets of rules and definitions. The definitions do not always crossover. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eixTNMWKsdc



bsms said:


> I guess the problem is that "collection" means different things to different people. It makes communication difficult, particularly written communication. I liked VS Littauer's phrasing. He distinguished between "gathering", which was a shift in balance to the rear for a short time, and "collection", which he reserved for the dressage definition. All horses need to be able to gather themselves, but not all need dressage-like collection. Chamberlin tried to use "natural collection" to describe "gathering".


When I say or hear "gather", that means pull your horse together or to do what is more commonly known as a half halt.


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

updownrider said:


> When I say or hear "gather", that means pull your horse together or to do what is more commonly known as a half halt.


 Yep, that is my understanding of "gather" too, but the word pull not used in the pull on the mouth way, but just gather them together or collect them, without it necessarily being dressage collected. I spend a lot of my time when out hacking with my horse gathered and loosely collected, they are listening to me and going forward with a light even contact.


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Clava said:


> Yep, that is my understanding of "gather" too, but the word pull not used in the pull on the mouth way, but just gather them together or collect them, without it necessarily being dressage collected. I spend a lot of my time when out hacking with my horse gathered and loosely collected, they are listening to me and going forward with a light even contact.


Yes, I didn't mean pull as pull on the horse's mouth. Poor choice of words on my part. Yes again, "collect" them, but not in the FEI official dressage way. 

Sometimes I think I need a thesaurus so I will not use words that might also have an equestrian definition. :wink:

------
I also want to point out that my first post of today didn't format very well. I didn't say "This horse is incredibly responsive, although he is not collected" and post that picture originally, I was quoting another poster and responding to the quote and picture.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"An undeniable expert in the Western world, Tom McCutcheon, explains how he wants his horses "collected"."

I am well aware that folks use collected to mean almost anything. I've heard folks say "I taught my horse to collect today", and I've heard them say, "I collected my horse's head". If someone wants to use a word in a non-standard way, it would help communication if they then explained THEIR definition.

On a thread entitled:

*A Rant About "On The Bit", Collection & Training Techniques *

it seems obvious the OP was NOT discussing western riding, where, at best, collection usually refers to any shift of weight to the rear. I also think it is clear that the discussion between Clava and I was not about how to get a bucking horse...since some think a bucking horse is collected. Heck, just wear big spurs and dig in...when the horse bucks, its "collected"! :evil:

If all one wants is a brief and mild shift of weight toward the rear, that CAN be taught in one ride. It can be taught without a bit, and certainly can be taught without first putting a horse 'on the bit'.

My point to the OP was that putting a horse on the bit and then progressing toward collection - FEI definition collection - isn't done with a one paragraph discussion. If any instructor tells you to seesaw the bit, and doesn't explain _exactly what that means, how to do it, how to tell if you are doing it right, how to tell if you are doing it wrong and what the desired end state of the exercise is_, then the instructor is doing a poor job of instructing and the result is likely to be ugly.

"_The FEI has 8 different disciplines with 8 different sets of rules and definitions._"

If the FEI has any other definition of "collection", I've been unable to find it. I'd be truly grateful and would gladly eat my words if someone can show me where the FEI defines "collection" somewhere else as having a different meaning. I looked and failed to find.

Littauer and Chamberlin struggled to find a word meaning shorter duration shifts in balance to the rear, possibly without elevating the withers. Maybe in the last 50 years, someone has come up with one. It would be useful for those of us who want a balanced horse but who don't want Dressage-type collection as a goal.

For my part, I'd be happy to use "on the aids" or "responsive to cues" to mean a horse whose balance, suppleness and willingness are at the disposal of the rider. Unhappily, those phrases have no standard meaning. Communicating in print is hard when the words don't exist, or when people use them without realizing someone else is attaching a different meaning. Maybe I just need to say "balanced and responsive"...:?


----------

