# Dishing



## madyasmkey

My horse is the best tempered horse I've ever met, she has amazing conformation but she dishes. My instructor told me that WILL cause her issues but then my farrier says I'd cause more damage to change it. Also, she has Arab in her and I have been told that is the reason for her struggling to engage her back end in canter. Is this true?


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## tinyliny

dishing? I don't know that word.


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## madyasmkey

It's where their front leg kicks out behind them and swings around rather than just stepping straight. Not sure if that's the best way to explain it though


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## Red Gate Farm

dishing as in conformation of the hoof or dishing as in movement?


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## madyasmkey

Movement


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## Clayton Taffy

I have always called that "Paddle Walking".


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## roadswarrior

I have heard it called "paddling" as well. Peruvian paso's are well know for their paddling.


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## KatieQ

I have always heard it called "paddling" as well. Years ago I had a QH gelding who did this. In his later years he developed arthritis; I am not sure if that was the reason but have always suspected it. But I have no expertise in this, it was just my feeling.


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## Zeke

Ok I'm intrigued, I haven't heard of or witnessed "dishing" or "paddling" anyone got a link to a video?


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## EdmontonHorseGal

madyasmkey said:


> Also, she has Arab in her and I have been told that is the reason for her struggling to engage her back end in canter. Is this true?


while i can't comment on the 'dishing/paddling' as i don't have experience with it, what i can say is that a horse being part or even full blown arab means absolutely nothing when it comes to engaging the hind end in all gaits. this is just the horse being lazy, due to lack of proper training for the most part.


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## Chiilaa

You can see it in this guy, who has a slight dish to his trot.






I suspect "dishing" may be another UK/Australian word. Paddling seems to be the US equivalent


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## tinyliny

also called "winging out".


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## Zeke

Thank you Chiila, for some reason I had a brain fart and thought of the foot swinging inwards and infront of the other. Don't ask me how I got that lol....

I'm still clueless on the matter. I don't see how it could cause her too much harm if it's not severe and I can't imagine how you'd correct it. So guess I'll follow along to see what others say!


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## sarahfromsc

Wherever, and/or from whomever you are getting the majority of your info from, please stop reading, watching, or listening to the source(s).

First bits are bad.

Now Arabs cannot engage their engine.

I need a red wine and some brownies....triple fudge brownies.


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## SlideStop

I don't see why paddling would effect your horse ability to engage his hind end. My guess why she cant would be lack of muscle related to not being ridden correctly? 

(sounds like I just nursing diagnosed your horse... hah)


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## Shropshirerosie

As I do know what dishing is I will feel comfortable stepping in on this one :lol:

Dishing (as it is known in the UK) is a conformational fault. From reading the others replies here I suspect it is not viewed as such in other parts of the world and (I am guessing wildly here) I suspect that is because some western disciplines are easier on a horses joints than most English disciplines.

At low level dressage, jumping, or XC, dishing is not going to cause a problem. You won't ever be expecting a consistent level of power and repetition sufficient for that particular conformational fault to be the cause of lameness in later life.

However, your instructor is right because ALL conformation faults are the things that in later life will lead to some kind of lameness or other physical pain. Just as with people, a horses body will break down in time.

You most certainly can't 'change' dishing and I can't imagine how you would try. If you are thinking of doing it through corrective trimming then your farrier is absolutely right to tell you no.

As for an inability to engage her hind end in canter, assuming that your horse is sound then this is just a matter of good and proper flatwork training starting in walk. Learn to engage the hind end here first, then work up to canter. Part Arab or not is nothing to do with it.


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## Elana

Dishing is an extreme form of dishing. It is found most often in horses with wide chests and in crooked leg horses. Being an Arab has little to do with her lack of engagement. Traveling head high and not learning to use herself is the issue. 

A lot of Arabs are hot and can have a naturally high head carriage (due to high neck set and laid back shoulder) with a hollow back. This does not mean they cannot be trained to use themselves better. It does mean a lot of people don't choose to train them.


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## smrobs

IME, dishing usually is a result of unusual joint movement or crooked legs. My Mustang dishes badly...but he's pretty prominently pigeon toed as well. Do you have any good pictures of your horse's legs straight on from the front?

Just as an example, you can see that this guy dished pretty badly.
Skip to 6:00 to see a really good example.


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## madyasmkey

The engaging of the his was just what a friend told me. She works long and low rather than blowing and has very powerful bum muscles from jumping and dressage, it is literally just canter where she goes flat, yet not over fences?

Is weird though because she has really good conformation and the only thing I notice about her legs is that tge leg she dishes with has a bigger knee. She didhes at her worst in trot but it has been gettjng better as she grows. I'll see if I can find a picture.


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## madyasmkey

I can't get a url on my tablet but I thinm it can be seen in my video on youtube.
Madyasmkey schooling for once. Please don't comment on my riding, it has improved a lot in the 6 months since that video was posted.


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## danny67

Paddling always cracks me up. It's the horsy equiv of doing the duck walk.


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## verona1016

I'd be a little concerned if the knees are noticeably different in size. Have you ever discussed it with your vet?


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## madyasmkey

Yeah, they had nothing to say about it, 3 said there was nothing to worry about it.


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## GotaDunQH

madyasmkey said:


> I can't get a url on my tablet but I thinm it can be seen in my video on youtube.
> Madyasmkey schooling for once. Please don't comment on my riding, it has improved a lot in the 6 months since that video was posted.


I watched your video. She's not using her butt because you aren't asking her to you...her back is hollow and her hocks are strung out behind you. You are just riding like a passenger and not be proactive like a driver.

As for the paddling, her conformation is not perfect....she's got some wonky front legs which is why she paddles.


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## madyasmkey

I want bothered about an outline in that video and and didn't notice that. She only does it with her right leg though and has done it less as she has grown up? Compared to when that video was taken she hardly does it at all, I was watching her today and she seems to have almost completely have stopped.


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## Shacane

Does she only do it at the trot? Or is it just accentuated at the trot?
I've been taught that most "paddling" or "winging", as I have come to know it, is caused by knees. Whether it's a sore knee, or offset knee depends. Usually with a sore knee you'll see more of a "swinging" of the whole leg starting higher up in the shoulder because they don't want to bend that sore knee. 
Depending on what you plan on doing, having offset knees isn't a death sentence, however in most performance sports an offset knee will cause problems. I had a mare who got a slab fracture and chip in her knee because it was offset.
The best way to tell is to have someone walk/jog the horse in hand and you watch from behind, any movement that isn't perfectly strait becomes quite obvious from behind because you can see which way the feet swing 

I tried to find a diagram that demonstrates how knees can be offset but I didn't succeed. This is the closest I can find...


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## QHDragon

My Appaloosa mare paddled, but she also toed out a bit. Neither issue ever caused her any unsoundness issues. She was never lame while I had her, and her previous owners all made the same comment.


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## Hang on Fi

Harley paddles... Always has. Farrier just chuckles... Her knees and the middle of her front of her hooves don't line-up which is the culprit. Never been lame. 

She does have two different front hooves though or as my farrier says front hooves from two different horses... Oddly enough.


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## madyasmkey

We always call it her hay hoof, it doesn't happen at all in walk and only a little bit in trot and canter, used to be really bad in trot though. Her legs definitely don't look like that and her right knee seems to be a bit wider on the outside. Never been lame and jumps 4ft9, the highest she's ever done was about 5ft7 when she jumped out her field every day.


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## GotaDunQH

madyasmkey said:


> We always call it her hay hoof, it doesn't happen at all in walk and only a little bit in trot and canter, used to be really bad in trot though. Her legs definitely don't look like that and her right knee seems to be a bit wider on the outside. Never been lame and jumps 4ft9, the highest she's ever done was about 5ft7 when she jumped out her field every day.


Can you get a conformation pic from the front? It's definitely a connection with her knee and cannon bone below, which is a conformational issue....and that never goes away.


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## stevenson

is this horse sway backed ? there is a genetic disease in Arabs that cause the back end to be wobbly. I forget the name of it, there was a Huge discussion on it, a while back.
There are some Arabian breeders on this site, and they could tell you the name of the disease.


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## madyasmkey

She has no other issues at all, I just find it difficult to engage her hind in canter and it seems to get brushed off as "Oh it's because she has Arab in her"
I'll see if I can get a picture tonight after school. 

It doesn't cause any problems and if it might cause arthritis then we'll start giving her cod liver oil.


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## SEAmom

A picture will certainly be very helpful. I think far too many "quirks" get passed off as the result of the breed and that is rarely the case.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Celeste

I never could see the video; however, if this horse is well mannered, fun to ride, and doing able to do what you want her to do, just enjoy her. Every horse is not going to be perfect in every respect. She sounds like a nice horse. So what if she paddles a little?


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## madyasmkey

It doesn't bother me. I was just wondering if it would cause problems because I want her to live for as long as possible yet be healthy too.


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## madyasmkey

I keep forgetting to get a picture but I managed to gay her to use her back end in v canter. Just took a few taps with a whip and getting her more forward and she did it. Improved her extended walk and trot a lot too.


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## speedy da fish

A horse never dishes for no reason. It's either confrontational, to do with weight or a back issue they are compensating for. Yes, it is a problem but not a major one. A good farrier will be able to shoe or trim accordingly. 

As for the Arab canter thing. I can sort of associate with that as I have a Anglo Arab myself. He will engage his rear end with a bit or work, the fitter he is, the less time it takes for him to warm up.

But if you think about it, Arabs naturally have a canter suitable for endurance, rather than the one we desire in the school.


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## madyasmkey

I know she doesn't have back issues because we've had the back person out and saddle fitted. The farrier said it stems from her kneeand there is no need to show her and probably never will be. I have been watching dressage horses and I'd noticed it looks like their horses often dish, just a tiny bit.


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