# Even horses which the instructors claim to be the most patient have tried to throw me



## mavis (Jul 28, 2011)

Help! I have a problem. Everytime someone gives me a horse which he says is wonderful for children and beginner riders, the horse will try to throw me off if i try to engage my legs.

So far all instructors have dismissed me as overthinking that I would be bumped off, resulting in a self-fulfilling prophecy as the horse can pick up these thoughts. 

I finally met an instructor today who tells me that my legs could be so tense that the horse picks up on it. 

I have problems using leg aids effectively. When i engage my legs, horses still don't move. Horses never go the way i want them to move towards. If i want a horse to move right, he will go left. Then it becomes a struggle before he finally tries to throw me off. If he doesn't succeed, i would be too frightened to continue.

so, how do i engage my legs effectively enough for a horse to listen but not get so annoyed he throws me off?

Thanks.


----------



## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

if multiple well broke horses are getting so annoyed with you that they are acting up, you are doing something very wrong. Please get a really good instructor to evaluate your riding and give you some exercises to work on. Its pretty much impossible to give you instruction based on a few sentences.

You could be off balance, have hard hands, be miscuing with hands/leg/seat, clamping your legs down, being inconsistent with commands, being to rough/abrupt when asking, or a combination of any(or all) of the above. You need someone who can evaluate your riding in person and give you some constructive criticism.


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

It sounds, like Blue suggested, that you are giving conflicting cues and it is irritating the horse. 

What are you doing with your hands while you are using your seat/legs to change direction?


----------



## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Sounds like you need to be taken back to basics. I would ask to be put on the lunge line with your reins taken away from you. So you can focus on just your seat and legs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

If you're wearing spurs, take them off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ninamebo (May 25, 2013)

Hm.. Sounds like you have a very rigid back (among other possible issues). If your hips aren't giving to the movement of the horse in the slightest, it won't be comfortable for any horse. That plus clamping with your legs can result in a lot of confusion as far as what you're trying to tell the horse to do, and annoyance, hence the bucking. 

Ultimately, it sounds like you need an instructor that won't simply write you off as a self fufilling prophecy and will actually help you improve your seat and balance. It all falls back to that and core strength. Outside of riding try doing exercises to improve that. Good luck!


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Try just sitting on the horse and picking up one rein. Pay close attention to the horse's response. Do it very slowly, then a little faster, hand low, hand high. No yanking. Then the other side. Now, hold your hands still in front of the saddle and move one heel back 2', turn your toe out and give a light tap with your heel. He may not move, he may shift sideways a little or he may move forward or back. That's ok. You are studying how he reacts to your signals. He's doing according to how he understands your foreign language.


----------



## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

How much time have you had around horses in general? Can you handle a horse on the ground without it getting agitated with you? Leading, grooming, tacking up? Are you comfortable doing that? 
I'm sure many instructors feel their job is to teach one to ride but offering to pay for ground-time would be a good idea if you need this. Good suggestions given here. Learn to relax. It will help. And don't forget to breath!


----------



## TrailTraveler (Jan 4, 2014)

Granted, I'm not as wise or intuitive as some of the more seasoned riders here, but some questions came to mind:

(1) At what point when you're riding do these attempts to unseat you occur? Transitioning from trot to canter? Walk to trot? Canter? Lining up a jump?

(2) Are you _certain_ that the horse is trying to unseat you? Some horses do a little crow-hop thing when they transition into a canter, and it can kind of feel like a small buck.

(3) HOW is the horse trying to unseat you? Bucking? Rearing? Bolting? Sudden stop, dropping shoulder, etc.?

IMO, NBEventer is right on -- it sounds like you would benefit from some work on a lunge line to get your legs right. This would also improve your confidence, as well.


----------



## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

Have you been riding at all with a GOOD instructor? If not, then that would be my suggestion. My guess would be that you are doing something wrong- constant leg or rein pressure, conflicting cues, very off balanced, could be anything. A good instructor should be able to figure our your problem almost immediately if it's so bad that truly dead broke horses are trying to get you off. Without being there to watch we can only speculate, and unless you're riding in front of an instructor then they can only speculate as well.


----------



## Paradise (Jun 28, 2012)

Maybe post a video if you can? That will give our experienced members a better idea of what's up.

Are you clenching your legs? Digging in with your heels? Are you tight and tense when you ride? Are you using your hands and seat effectively in conjunction with your legs?
I'm interested to find out what this is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## mavis (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi, thanks for all the responses.

I have been riding for three years.. with long breaks in between because of work, and a nasty accident.
I notice only happens when I am really trying to ride, i.e. during the periods when I really want to improve rather than just ride for fitness or when I meet an instructor who keeps telling me to wrap my legs around the horse and really hug him with my legs. For the last year I rode in a school where none of the horses tried to throw me off because I didn't squeeze them all the time with the legs. 
I am now in at a riding resort where the head instructor is the one who believed when I said even the horses which everyone believed to be docile have tried to throw me off. 
I had a lesson with her assistant who spotted that i wasn't engaging my legs and nudging with my pelvis. So I did all of these, really put my heels down and squeezed with the inside of my calves. The first horse I rode bolted twice suddenly. Both times this happened during a walk and when he drifted towards the middle of the circle. I was trying to make him stay closer to the side. They then changed horse for me. The second horse tried to do the same thing towards the end of the lesson. During a walk and when I asserted that she should stay on the side. 

Bolt. not buck. 

The head instructor saw these and said I was too tense. I will speak to her today about my concerns over leg clamping. It's not funny when two horses in the same school try to bolt with me on top while we were just walking. The issue is this onlyhappens when I am really trying to engage my legs. I was not even kicking. Just keeping in contact and squeezing.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Try riding for a while without lower leg contact. As a general rule, you don't need to hug them with your legs...or squeeze. Think of a couple of wet towels draped on the sides, or go western and don't worry about lower leg contact at all.


----------



## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

Yep, I would be willing to bet that your legs are the problem. You're hearing "engage" and thinking "squeeze" so the horses are trying to get away from your leg. Makes sense. You'll need to learn to ride effectively and use your leg as needed. Constant, heavy leg pressure will make the horse dead to the leg very quickly. You want to use it when needed, and back off otherwise. I would be concerned that the trainer didn't make the connection between telling you to engage your leg and these problems occurring.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## mavis (Jul 28, 2011)

Seems like I confuse them with my legs. 

The lead instructor says I am overdoing the legs. I keep them on all the time, frightening the horses. I also have a tendency to move my leg backwards to press in whenever I want them to move left or right. They move backwards instead and are confused. The more forward ones will run off. 

I also have another problem. Sometimes I pull left, but the hind quarters of the horse move right, but i am squeezing with my right leg as well. 

SIGH.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Like DD says, any excessively forceful contact is just going to cause irritation and /or horse starting to ignore the contact. Like BSMS says, think gentle contact - whether with the bit or the legs. Tom Roberts (Australian riding legend) calls this "Contact One" - which is elevated to "Contact Two" when we want something. Even "Contact Two" should be quite gentle. Dressage riders get very good at giving minimal cues, and getting their horses to read those cues.

Also maybe try a lesson at another place, with a different instructor, and see how you go?


----------



## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

If I was your instructor, I'd let you take a few lunge lessons with reins AND stirrups taken away. These lessons should be concentrating on you relaxing yourself and just moving with the horse - no squeezing, no tensing. This really helped me - only my instructor also blindfolded me  and asked me to look up t the sky, lean back and just feel the horse. Then she would signal the horse to trot, walk, stop, canter, etc - without telling me. At first it was a bit scary, but once I understood the way my horse moved, I could anticipate what she was going to do next and I relaxed. I also had a problem of gripping with my knees and this really helped. Can you ask your instructor to give you a few lunge lessons? This way the horse can't really all-out bolt to the other side of the world either. 

If I could be really blunt and just give you some pointers: 
Relax your legs and don't grip with anything. Don't 'hug the horse'. Just weight in your stirrups - adjust their lenght if needed so you feel comfortable in them. Shoulders back, chin up, breathe in and out deeply and think of being confident and carefree, breathe some more. Hands stay still above the horses neck in front of you (not on the sides or in your lap) with an even contact (meaning the reins are not slacking). If you want to go forward, just tap the horse with your calves. That should be enough to get you moving. If not, tap harder - but as soon as the horse moves forward, don't tap anymore. Remove the pressure - that way the horse will know it is what you wanted and his reward is getting rid of the pressure that was your legs. Hope I'm not confusing you.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Sounds good, Kyro. Only thing that jumped out at me that I'd do differently is to "tighten" my leg slightly to get a forward response, not to "tap" - tapping would be way down the progression of increasingly forceful contact in case I get ignored (assuming the horse understands what I want). If you give really light cues before giving stronger ones if necessary, your horse probably will start responding to the lighter pressures, which is a win-win for both of you. (This is much easier when you ride the same horse regularly and you can get used to each other, than when you're on a schooling horse that's getting slightly different cues from each of its many riders.)


----------



## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

Oh, SueC is right, I'm sorry my English is not that good haha  I did mean tighten. Tap only when he or she decides to not respond and then increase pressure until he/she goes forward. My mistake.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Your English is excellent! Are you actually Estonian? There's a pretty cool composer in Estonia called Arvo Paert, who makes some incredibly atmospheric classical music! And have you ever had reindeer meat? Sorry if those are cliches. I'm curious about other people's cultures.


----------



## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

I doubt they're trying to throw you but are just really reacting to you. It doesn't sound like where you are has horses suitable for lessons if they are just that sensitive. I also have to wonder why the instructors can't seem to figure this out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

I think you need to change instructors. Horses just don't go from happy to bucking people off instantly, there are warning signs in between that neither you or the instructor are picking up on. If you do something a a horse starts throwing his head, pinning his ears and swishing his tail that means he didn't like it, don't do it again. It's your job, as a rider, to read him and adjust accordingly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TrailTraveler (Jan 4, 2014)

A couple of thoughts on leg pressure:

“The greatest hindrance to driving the horse properly comes from riders stiffening their legs…. The horse cannot monitor tight legs as aids and _will sour to the pressure_, which he will interpret as a meaningless second girth.” - Charles de Kunffy, Training Strategies for Dressage Riders, p.163

“Do not put your leg in one fixed point – let them loose to free the upper body. If you want a lazy horse and to exhaust yourself, squeeze with your legs. If you want a brilliant horse, active and relaxed, let go with your legs, forget your leg muscles while staying reactive, attentive and relaxed.” Arthur Kottas-Heldenberg, Kottas On Dressage, p. 22

For a while, I rode a lesson horse that was absolutely dead to leg pressure, and I felt that it was actually making me a worse rider -- forcing me to over-cue. After lessons on that horse, I would leave the barn feeling frustrated and hopeless. Is it possible, OP, that this has happened to you? Earlier in your training, did you work with a horse with dead sides that forced you to overuse your legs? If so, it could have given you some bad habits.

If you're a nervous rider -- clenching your legs because you're afraid you'll fall -- you might want to start on a lunge line in a western saddle. You'd be amazed how much calmer people feel when they have access to a saddle horn!  Good luck!


----------



## peneloppe (Dec 27, 2013)

I'd the same problem so I'm just going to tell you how I'd overcame the problem. My riding had improved after figuring this out.

1) Confidence - horses can pick up your insecurities and turn alpha

2) Body language. if you are nervous, you tense up and unconsciously give conflicting cues eg leg cues, rein cues etc. Even your muscles can reveal much about your physical state. I relax and concentratenon the rhythm, keeping body relaxed yet enough strength in my arms and legs to cue and direct the horse.

3) Body movement - If you move against the natural rhythm of the horse, you irritate his back and he will try to buck you off. Just imagine a child jumping on you and swinging on your back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## mavis (Jul 28, 2011)

SlideStop said:


> I think you need to change instructors. Horses just don't go from happy to bucking people off instantly, there are warning signs in between that neither you or the instructor are picking up on. If you do something a a horse starts throwing his head, pinning his ears and swishing his tail that means he didn't like it, don't do it again. It's your job, as a rider, to read him and adjust accordingly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Haha.. I once told an instructor who had gone overtime with the lesson that the horse I was riding wasn't happy because i could see her baleful eyes, pinned back eyes and her body had gone all stiff. He insisted I show who was the boss. She showed me who was boss when I made her go around the arena again.


----------



## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

SueC, you made my day  it comes as a surprise to me that such rumours are roaming around about us. I wish we had wild reindeer here, sadly there are none in Estonia - in the zoo maybe, but not scuttling around. Maybe you got us mixed with Finland? It's much colder there  . Haha, I'd love to talk about the culture here (just a bunch of computer geeks and a whole-lot of forest surrounding them sums it up pretty much) but I wouldn't want to go so much off topic - Sorry OP! 

Maybe we should do a culture thread, where everyone would talk about where they're from and some facts about the country etc :-o If there isn't one like that already..


----------



## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

> Haha.. I once told an instructor who had gone overtime with the lesson that the horse I was riding wasn't happy because i could see her baleful eyes, pinned back eyes and her body had gone all stiff. He insisted I show who was the boss. She showed me who was boss when I made her go around the arena again.


I rode 2 years in a riding school where my trainer would purpously put me on the numbest horses there, who would pin their ears back even when a person approached. He said that I needed to show them who's boss and be a 'stronger rider'. I fell down 1-10 times per lesson because the horse would start non-stop bucking sessions or would just flat-out bolt. After half a year of such painful lessons, I quit and went to a new stable. Best. Decision. Ever. OP, I really hope the situation isn't anything similar to what mine was.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

mavis said:


> Haha.. I once told an instructor who had gone overtime with the lesson that the horse I was riding wasn't happy because i could see her baleful eyes, pinned back eyes and her body had gone all stiff. He insisted I show who was the boss. She showed me who was boss when I made her go around the arena again.


When I first started riding I remember ****ing my horse off doing something. My trainer yelled at me "HEY! Whatever you just did DON'T DO IT!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I don't know how to escape the conclusion your instructors need to take lessons. There are times when one should grip with the lower leg, but it certainly should not be constant and tight. If it is causing a problem, any instructor ought to see it coming and take corrective action. If they do not, then change instructors.


----------



## polowrapfiend (Nov 7, 2013)

i have to agree with bsms that it seems like your instructors need to go back to the basics as well. im not sure where they thought telling you being forceful and constantly having your leg aids "on" was the way to go but im glad youve figured out otherwise. your legs for the most part should be silent, heels down, and used when needed. and even when they are used its not a gripping for life situation, but a squeeze and release. if i were the horses id want to run too. good luck with your future lessons


----------



## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

Do you by any chance have really long legs?

If you do, and your heels are hitting the horse kind of under the belly instead of on its sides, that could be your problem. Sometimes I ride a lesson horse who is really lazy, but I know the only thing I have to do to light a fire under his butt is to rub my heels into the underside of his belly. He hates it.  Takes off like a shot!


----------



## mavis (Jul 28, 2011)

I don't have very long legs but they are long in proportion to my height. Haha.. 

Anyway, the interesting thing is I noticed that if one horse in school tries to throw me off, all other others I ride subsequently at the same school will try to throw me off. While there are schools where no one horse tries to throw me off at all. I used to think it's because they have a quiet way of passing messages to each other. Like maybe one horse who gets sent by after throwing me off will go back to the stables and whisper to the other horses, "hey, if you try to throw this girl off, she won't try to get on you again." But I now think it could be the way they are schooled at different places. At schools where leg aids are taught properly, horses have come to expect certain things from students. So when I do everything wrongly, they have no patience with me. While at schools where the horses are used to being poked in the ribs and are so desensitised, I never get unseated. But i want to improve..


----------



## SammysMom (Jul 20, 2013)

This sounds pretty bizarre. Most of the lesson horses I've ever known would have to be *extremely* uncomfortable to try to throw a rider who isn't using spurs or a whip. Without spurs, I don't see how you could be doing enough of a vice-squeeze to make _every_ horse try to throw you. Even if you're squeezing as hard as you can, appropriately sized lesson horses shouldn't be consistently _trying_ to throw you.

Are you sure you aren't just extremely unbalanced and falling when the horses turn?

Honestly, if you've been riding for three years and are actually upsetting horses as much as you think you are, I think you need to have a trainer walking alongside you every time you're on a horse and working really hard to figure out what exactly you're doing until you solve the issue -- like putting her hands under your legs to feel the amount of pressure, holding the bit while you pull to see how hard it is, etc. 

If it's true that whole schools of lesson horses are throwing you, you have to be doing something _really, really, really_ upsetting, not just putting on too much leg pressure.


----------



## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Is this a legit thread? Just beginning to wonder......


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

mavis said:


> Anyway, the interesting thing is I noticed that if one horse in school tries to throw me off, all other others I ride subsequently at the same school will try to throw me off. While there are schools where no one horse tries to throw me off at all. I used to think it's because they have a quiet way of passing messages to each other. Like maybe one horse who gets sent by after throwing me off will go back to the stables and whisper to the other horses, "hey, if you try to throw this girl off, she won't try to get on you again."


Hi Mavis, I can't give you any pearls of wisdom here but I can give you some comic relief, because what you've said above reminds me of a horse joke I heard:

Two racehorses are talking about their new jockey. One says, "He can't ride very well, can he?" To which the other replies, "No, but he flies so beautifully!" :rofl:

Hope you got a giggle out of it, and good luck with your bizarre problem!


----------



## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

What's happening when they "try to throw you off"? Are they bucking may until you fall? Are they just cantering? Sometimes beginner riders think a horse is trying to throw them off when it's really not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lonannuniel (Jun 13, 2008)

I too am wondering what exactly the horses are doing to 'throw you off'. My own horses are by no means lesson horse materials, but I can tell you that no matter how confusing the rider on their back is, none of them would buck, bolt, or rear to try and get them off. Granted, they'll do what they think you're asking of them, and they might show signs of annoyance (swishing tail, throwing head around a bit, small stuff like that. like others have said, you would have to be doing something extremely upsetting to the horses to get such a reaction, and something of that magnitude would be easy to spot and easy to notice.

I would guess that those lesson horses are reacting the best they can to the cues you're giving (even if you don't realize you're giving them). That being said, I would expect any good trainer would be able to spot this issue and help you with it fairly quickly.


----------



## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Videos of you riding would help us to see what it is you are doing.

I would suggest though that it is less the horse than it is your mechanics, or lack of same.

Horses will get the number pretty quickly of someone that can't make them behave.


----------



## mavis (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi, I am back at my regular riding school where I rode for the past eight months with zero accident record. And back riding my usual 20y/o pony who is the sweetest ever. I applied what the instructor at the ranch I rode at where I experienced the tantrums, taught me, and everything went beautifully. My regular instructor (who didm't spot the fundamental problems i had with my toe positioning - bad habit of pointing outwards and applying constant pressure) said my position has improved.

Re the earlier questions which I haven't answered because I have been swamped with work. the horses basically would behave like they are throwing a tantrum. Like a sudden "I GIVE UP! GET OFF ME NOW!" and they would suddenly bolt in the middle of walk or a trot when I am trying so hard to make them work. And when this happens at a new ranch, the next horse I ride will do the same thing. So i believe it's the way they are schooled.. (more sensitive than the ones at my regular school), - they will not stand for the way i ride.

Anyway, i am better with the toe positioning now and have let up on the calf pressure.. I have a new problem.

Thanks so much for your advice. You have helped a lot..

Now on to my new problem..in a new thread. …


----------

