# Western Dressage!



## hgbtx (Jan 26, 2014)

Are grade horses allowed? And do any of y'all compete in it, if so, what's it like? Just curious and thinking I might get started in it!


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

Any horse can do it! I have competed western dressage with one if my geldings, it was super fun! You should go for it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Any and all horses can compete in WD, I went to a clinic last year and the best horse there was a mule! 

I compete and I love it, my little old QH and I have a ball.


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## hgbtx (Jan 26, 2014)

Golden Horse said:


> Any and all horses can compete in WD, I went to a clinic last year and the best horse there was a mule!
> 
> I compete and I love it, my little old QH and I have a ball.


Thanks so much both of you and your horse is beautiful Gibbs!


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## hgbtx (Jan 26, 2014)

Meant Golden Horse lol sorry


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## Avishay (Jun 14, 2014)

I do western dressage with my drafty boy! WD is great for those of us who want to follow classical principles and/or have non-traditional "dressage" breeds. 

Shay and I have been at it for about 2 years now, after switching from traditional dressage. Here are a couple photos from the other day, showing collection and extension (hard to tell due to low quality photos, but I'm riding one-handed (left), in curb bit)










https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10686782_10152952818553474_4418502813913188902_n.jpg?oh=cd9c65f5e2a480ccd48ace4023bb5d8d&oe=54E12420


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## Avishay (Jun 14, 2014)

For some reason I couldn't edit my post above to fix the photos


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## MaximasMommy (Sep 21, 2013)

A mule competed in the National Dressage Finals this year in Kentucky. I saw it! It was normal dressage. So just about anything can do anything nowdays!


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Avishay--Looks like you two are having fun :>

I wonder how much WD will continue to gain popularity?


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## hgbtx (Jan 26, 2014)

Avishay said:


> I do western dressage with my drafty boy! WD is great for those of us who want to follow classical principles and/or have non-traditional "dressage" breeds.
> 
> Shay and I have been at it for about 2 years now, after switching from traditional dressage. Here are a couple photos from the other day, showing collection and extension (hard to tell due to low quality photos, but I'm riding one-handed (left), in curb bit)
> 
> ...


So do you have to ride with one hand?


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

hgbtx said:


> So do you have to ride with one hand?


No. 

Which is one reason it is not a western discipline. It is non-functional, but easier for some people.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

boots said:


> No.
> 
> Which is one reason it is not a western discipline. It is non-functional, but easier for some people.



Oh please do not go there again, there is no reason why a western horse cannot be ridden two handed, I get there is an ongoing debate over two handing a curb, but it is a total nonsense to say that riding in a snaffle a western horse cannot be ridden two handed.

Saying it is non functional is somewhat insulting I feel, yes if a horse and rider are working, then a horse will be ridden one handed, or if he is good enough, just about no handed, but not everyone wants to, or needs to ride in a curb. 

Again if this gets butts in saddles, and gets more people out there competing it can only be a good thing. As a grown up riding and older horse there was nothing that I could look to compete in until WD arrived up here, and it has been fantastic. Next year there are to be far more classes in more shows, there is a growing interest, and the sport will hopefully grow and develop. Of course it isn't for everyone, same as more traditional dressage isn't for everyone, but it is a very inclusive sport, so lots of people can give it a go. No special horse or new tack to be bought, come along with what you have and give it a go.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

A simple difference of opinions. I will express mine as long as the topic arises.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Western pleasure is ridden one-handed, does that make it a functional western discipline? 

I like western/cowboy dressage quite a bit. You make it what you make it. If you're comfortable in a snaffle, you can ride in one. If you're comfortable two-handed in a curb, you can ride in one. If you're comfortable one-handed in a bridle bit, you can. You can post at the lower levels if you want. It's more concerned with developing a relationship with you and your horse on a foundational level than following a set of exclusionary "rules" for horsemanship. And has way less technical pressure than traditional english dressage.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

If you go down center line at the beginning of the test one handed, you must finish one handed.

Also, the western dressage horse should travel with a drape rein, not on contact as you would with classical dressage.

The gaits in western dressage are a wee bit different than classical.

I have ridden both tests and the patterns or tests may be the same, but how you and the horse ride the tests under each will be different.

It is fun and different and I like the challenge of trading my gelding both classical and western, especially since I ride western dressage with a bosal. Totally different feel than my snaffle bit.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

oh vair oh said:


> Western pleasure is ridden one-handed, does that make it a functional western discipline?


Eegads! You know it is not. lol


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## Avishay (Jun 14, 2014)

Hgbtx -

Yes, I'm riding one-handed. I don't agree (personally) with riding two-handed in a curb bit. I will do so for a moment or two to make a correction, but that would be just as true if I was training for any other western discipline. I don't have the time, money, or opportunity to show WD (or anything else, for that matter) right now, but if I were to compete, yes, I'd be showing in a curb, one-handed, because that's how I practice at home. 

That said, if the horse wasn't being harmed by being ridden two-handed in a curb, I wouldn't say anything to that rider. If it's allowed, whether or not I believe it to be incorrect or counter-productive or any other argument is a moot point.  I also don't like seeing hunter or jumper riders riding in a pelham with converters, but it's allowed, and while it may not be "correct" or ideal, it's not really harmful, either. 



Zexious said:


> Avishay--Looks like you two are having fun :>
> 
> I wonder how much WD will continue to gain popularity?


It really IS fun. My boy and I both enjoy it, and he's a better horse because of it. Before I made the switch from "Traditional/Competition" dressage, I was already on the outs with my previous coach, and when I announced what I was switching to she told me, "You'll RUIN his gaits. They'll never be good for "real" dressage once you do that." Which, as you can see, it utter b.s. Yes, he now knows how to jog and lope, but those are just two more "gears" we have. 

Yet I've seen FAR more horses in the modern dressage world with flippy front feet doing "show trots" rather than true extensions, who are performing disunited canter pirouettes, and hollow, disjointed piaffe and passage with a high croup and tense, too-short necks. 

So in answer to your question, YES I think WD will stick around, and that it will grow. Traditional dressage principles come from three schools - the French influence wherein the aristocracy performed artistic interpretations of Medieval war horse attacks designed to combat foot soldiers; the German school which is linked to the development of the horse as a cavalry mount with a focus on the correctness and uniformity of training; and the Spanish school, which stems primarily from the use of the horse as a working ranch and bullfighting mount. MODERN dressage focuses almost entirely on the German school, with some influences from the French side of things at the upper levels. I'd be more impressed with modern dressage if Grand Prix horses were performing correct Levade, Capriole, Spanish Walk, etc. 

I've studied some of the French influences, but much of my early English riding training was focused on the German school. However, I've always adored the Haute Ecole of the Spanish Riding School, and I had a real respect for the idea that a horse trained in the Spanish school of thought would be capable of working the cattle on Monday, and could be used in combat on Tuesday, and then Friday night give an ovation-worthy performance in a display of artistic riding. I'm not that great a rider, but I really value the UTILITY of a horse with a diverse education and the physical and mental VERSATILITY that results. I cross train all my horses, and myself, because it makes us BETTER - better individuals, and better partners. 

So really, when you take the Spanish way of viewing dressage, and it's partial development out of the ranching culture, Spanish-influenced dressage IS a "western" discipline - especially when you realize that all Western disciplines stem from ranching culture cultivated during the westward expansion of the US, which was directly and heavily influenced by the established Spanish/Mexican ranchers already controlling much of the southwestern territories. IMO, my "Western Dressage" horse is more closely tied to the purity of classical dressage principles than modern competitive dressage horses typically are. But at the same time, he's refining skills that carry over into cross training - he's more subtle off my seat and leg when we move my cow around. He's sharper on his rollbacks, he'll sidepass all the way across the width of the arena if I ask, and he's more able to sit into his stop because I can get him truly collected off his hind end. The WD makes him a better "using" horse, and "using" him for all the funny, weird little thing that catch my fancy make him more mentally and physically capable, which makes him fresher in his dressage work than a horse who just schools though drill after drill. 

But that aside, I think that REAL thing that WD has going for it is the thing that started this thread - DIVERSITY. It's like ACTHA or Extreme Mountain Trail or Horseball, Polocrosse, and even Equine Agility. Its base is a bunch of "average jane" types who just want to go out and have FUN and IMPROVE on the horse they already HAVE. It's not about the breed you ride. It's not about which helmet you have, or the name stamped into your tack. It's not about how much bling is on your shirt, or if your boots match your chaps. Most of us who ride have horses because we love horses, and it's far better to ride the horse you HAVE than the one you *wish* you had. And I think that WD and other non-traditional sports


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Classical dressage was developed and intended to make a horse with good maneuverability that could be ridden by the rider leaving one hand free for combat. The horse itself was also a weapon. 

Modern dressage goals and competitions have veered far from that, too.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

boots said:


> No.
> 
> Which is one reason it is not a western discipline. It is non-functional, but easier for some people.


You frequently see barrel racers with both hands on the reins in competition. Is it not a western discipline?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

DuckDodgers said:


> You frequently see barrel racers with both hands on the reins in competition. Is it not a western discipline?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Barrel racing is a game. Done in a western saddle, most often, but just a game.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

boots said:


> Classical dressage was developed and intended to make a horse with good maneuverability that could be ridden by the rider leaving one hand free for combat. The horse itself was also a weapon.
> 
> Modern dressage goals and competitions have veered far from that, too.


Actually, dressage was always about showing off on a horse. Xenophon described its purpose:

"_Supposing, when he is in the ridingfield, you push him to a gallop until he is bathed in sweat, and when he begins to prance and show his airs to fine effect, you promptly dismount and take off the bit, you may rely upon it he will of his own accord another time break into the same prancing action. Such are the horses on which gods and heroes ride, as represented by the artist. The majesty of men themselves is best discovered in the graceful handling of such animals.  A horse so prancing is indeed a thing of beauty, a wonder and a marvel; riveting the gaze of all who see him, young alike and graybeards. They will never turn their backs, I venture to predict, or weary of their gazing so long as he continues to display his splendid action...

...But now suppose that you, sir, being at the head of the procession, rouse your horse and take the lead at a pace neither too fast nor yet too slow, but in a way to bring out the best qualities in all the animals, their spirit, fire, grace of mien and bearing ripe for action--I say, if you take the lead of them in this style, the collective thud, the general neighing and the snorting of the horses will combine to render not only you at the head, but your whole company down to the last man a thrilling spectacle._"

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1176/1176.txt

William Cavendish, the Duke of Newcastle, wrote in 1657: "_... I presume those great wits (the sneering gentlemen) will give Kings, Princes, and persons of quality leave to love pleasure-horses, as being an exercise that is very noble, and that which makes them appear most graceful when they show them- selves to their subjects, or at the head of an army, to animate it; so that the pleasure in this case is as useful as any thing else, besides the glory and satisfaction that attends it._"

Littauer describes it thus:

"_In the second half of the 16th century in Italy, and later in other parts of Europe, the more restrained forms of the Renaissance began to be superseded by the lavish ones of the Baroque, that is of a style based on a tendency toward exaggeration and ostentation. Art, with new knowledge at its command, exploited every trick to achieve the dramatic and the effective; painting was full of writhing bodies, striking highlights, and dark shadows; architecture bulged and billowed in unrestrained virtuosity, palaces covered more and more acres, their gardens swarming with statuary and erupting with fountains. With new talents and new brains coming up in the world, the old ideal of "noblesse oblige" was replaced by unabashed self-advertising.

In this the horse played his role. Conveyances have always been a status symbol, whether they were cart, chariot, carriage, or cadillac, hackney or lively charger. The rich man's pampered steed was apt to be fat and bouncy, prancing and cavorting all over the lot, while the poor man's jade-of-all-trades moved along at a sober, dogged pace. In the popular imagination the spirited animal represented power and wealth. What High School did was to take the prancings and rearings and cavortings, to label and regularize and control them, and put them into a system to serve the purpose of the age: the glorification of the great._"

William Steinkraus described how it evolved in the 1800s into circus acts. Baucher refused to ride outdoors, under the sky. It did not interest him. There were not dressage competitions, only shows - well attended shows demonstrating what a horse could be trained to do.

That doesn't make it wrong, but modern competitive dressage is true to its roots as a form of riding done for entertainment. It was never about developing a relationship or improving the horse's performance.

It also had nothing to do with most ranch work. Bridle horses were used in California, but that tradition is not what is being replicated in WD. WD is really dressage principles taught for dressage purposes to horses ridden in a western saddle. *As a way of having fun with one's horse, it is as valid as any other I know of, and is as valid a way to have fun as the riding I do with my horse*. But it isn't about teaching a horse balance, or improving its longevity, or making it responsive. All those are already done by English and Western riders alike.

"_At its core, Western Dressage is no different from Classical Dressage. Many Western horsemen agree that the goals and methods for training a Western horse are the same as those used over centuries among Classical Dressage enthusiasts...A Western Dressage horse moving correctly on the bit should demonstrate that he stretches into the rider’s contact. He should not be shown with a draped rein. Instead, there should be LIGHT rein tone evident between horse and rider. It should appear that the horse is seeking a feel of the rider’s hands._"

http://www.westerndressageassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/WhatisWesternDressage.pdf

Western riders did not and have not adopted the principles of dressage to train their ranch horses. There is nothing western about riding with constant contact. I'm not sure if the picture below is appropriate 'classical dressage' or not, but it sure isn't rooted in the traditions of the Old West:










Boots is correct. "_Done in a western saddle, most often, but just a game_." Arena sports are all about games and fun. They are not wrong. But the objective of barrel racing is to show how fast your horse can accelerate and turn, both of which have application to a working ranch. Prancing...not so much so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uQOchrK7NA​


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think if people want to do it then they should - if anyone doesn't want to do it and has no interest in it - then maybe just move on.
Its a shame when thread are started by people that want to learn something new and share experiences turn into lengthy arguments about why they shouldn't do it.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I still am kind of chuckling over the two handed thing, we often see people being told that their hands are not quiet enough for a curb, you should be in a snaffle, and by this logic they should only ride English because they can't ride one handed?

Young horses can, I believe, be shown in a snaffle and two handed, then they reach that magic birthday and BOOM, if you are going to compete you need to wear a curb. 

I guess I am a rebel, I have ridden many miles in an English snaffle one handed, I have ridden a number of miles in a double, one handed, because my hands were cold and i had to keep one in a pocket and rotate them :rofl:

We spent a lot of time working with Gibbs and I in a curb bit, but now we have gone back to the snaffle, and two hands, while I try and get my wayward hands under control, my goal is to end up having him one handed in a curb, but that is a long way down the line, so while we work toward it we will two hand as needed, it is perfectly functional at the level we are at and the job we are doing.

Oh and if you want something that looks like real fun how about this?

Â Western EquestrianÂ Triathlon 2015 - Home


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

bsms--I think what you're dealing with are opinions of individuals, not the end-all, be-all to disciplines. 

After all, "discipline" is defined by "a branch of knowledge." I see no reason that any of the above don't fall into that category xD


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

bsms said:


> They are not wrong. But the objective of barrel racing is to show how fast your horse can accelerate and turn, both of which have application to a working ranch. Prancing...not so much so.
> 
> ​



The ability to put your horse where you want it, forward, back, side, to ride in a harmonious way, all this is dressage.

Gibbs never has, never will prance, nor will he chase barrels, rein, do WP chase a cow, as a sport, he can though learn to carry himself better, to move freely and rhythmically, to speed up, slow down, turn and stop just where I ask him. He can keep physically fit and mentally active, same as his rider, by learning new things. He is a better horse after a year of WD and that is what's rewarding, oh yes the wall of ribbons is nice, the feedback from judges invaluable, and the friendships I have made, and the fun I have had, just priceless.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm sorry to see this become so contentious. The OP asked opinions, and some were given. That is where it should end. There shouldn't be attacks on why this or that opinion is incorrect.

Is there a place for western dressage? ABSOLUTELY!! I love any discipline that allows people to train, show and have fun with their equine partners. It is always going to be a slippery slope when one discipline piggybacks on another. Where the line is drawn is often contentious.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> I'm sorry to see this become so contentious. The OP asked opinions, and some were given. That is where it should end. There shouldn't be attacks on why this or that opinion is incorrect...


No one has attacked anyone for wanting to ride WD. When opinions are asked for, not all will be totally positive. I think WD needs to look at how it plans to reconcile two different approaches to riding. It seems, from their own website, they do not plan to do so: "_At its core, *Western Dressage is no different from Classical Dressage*._" Thus my conclusion that it is standard dressage in a western saddle. That isn't my opinion so much as it is the WDAA's.

But since I ALSO wrote: "*As a way of having fun with one's horse, it is as valid as any other I know of, and is as valid a way to have fun as the riding I do with my horse*", I fail to see how I made any "attack" on ANY discipline...:?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think any concerns about how the sport is going to evolve are probably best left to the people who participate in it or want to participate in it
As long as abuse isn't involved it really doesn't affect anyone else
If you don't like it, don't 'get it' then don't do it. Simple as that


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> ...If you don't like it, don't 'get it' then don't do it. Simple as that


jaydee, I don't think I've seen many forms of riding that didn't interest me. I enjoy watching both competitive dressage and jumping, although I do neither. I have a bunch of books on dressage, and have found things that helped me. My signature line comes from a guy who was known as a dressage rider, and who studied under Baucher.

Meanwhile, my two favorite books on riding are both by jumpers - Littauer and Chamberlin. Although I'm trying to learn to ride 'western', my own riding looks more like "Western Forward", if such a thing existed. 

I just got a book on schooling horses recommended to me via PM from a forum member. Skimming thru it, I see things about riding that I disagree with, but I've also found myself sitting back and thinking, "Hmmmm...that contradicts what I think, but is he right?" If we are willing to think about what we do and why we do it, and to re-examine what we do when challenged by others, then we can grow as riders. If all we hear is "Oh, that looks so cute", we won't grow. At least, not as quickly.

I suppose HF could create a "Western Dressage" sub-forum where questioning is off limits, although that doesn't seem to have worked very well for "Natural Horsemanship". Someone posting nice thoughts about Parelli in the NH subsection is likely to hear vastly harsher words than any I've posted here.

I went out of my way to say that those who want to do WD should feel free to do so. I specifically said it is as valid as any riding I do with my horse - which is both true, and means I'm not attacking anyone for doing it. But since it is being marketed to western riders as a way to ride western better, it seems reasonable to ask just how 'western' it really is, or even wants to be. That is discussing, not attacking.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Maybe use the title of the thread as a guideline for what the OP wants out of it?
If I'm asking for advice on a specific thing in a competitive sport then I don't really want an endless argument about whether or not other people think its a valid sport or not


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

hgbtx said:


> Are grade horses allowed? *And do any of y'all compete* in it, if so, what's it like? Just curious and thinking I might get started in it!


The OP asks for opinions from people that compete, how did this thread go so wrong?


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

updownrider said:


> The OP asks for opinions from people that compete, how did this thread go so wrong?


Good question. It became a discussion on whether it has merit as a discipline. Too bad.

hgbtx, I hope you decide to give it a try. It will help you learn to be a better partner with your horse and offer a low impact way to compete. Go for it and YES, any horse can do it, just as any horse can do any type of dressage.


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

hgbtx,
As already said, yes! any horse can compete in W.D. :lol:

I have been a participant in a W.D. schooling 'show'. It was a lot of fun! I knew nothing going in. It was a 2 day event,,the first day they helped us learn the patterns that we would be doing,and helped us understand the gaits we would need to show for the patterns. It was all very low key, no pressure, just fun and learning. The second day was the 'show'. We got scored and the winners got ribbons. The scoring sheets were explained, and it is very helpful to see how/why you scored such and such,and so which areas you need to improve the most. Also, in a 'schooling show', an announcer calls out the pattern for you as you ride, so if you have a brain hiccup and forget, all you have to do is listen. 
You could learn a lot by browsing the Western Dressage Association of America's homepage. There are also books available explaining the basics, and one I want to get has the patterns in it. I still don't understand if the patterns stay exactly the same year to year, or if they change. 
There are different levels, so I was in the 'Introductory' level. Next if 'beginner',, and so forth. 
If I had the time and $$$, I would try to find a local W.D. trainer (don't think their is one here), or lesson with a Classical dressage instructor to learn how to *really* teach collection, working, and extended gaits to Sonny. Oh, yeah,, I've seen him do all of them in the pasture...just need to be able to get them when asked. I do have a Natural Horsemanship instructor (western , primarily) who can take me so far,,,after that... ?
Also, I've not had much luck finding other W.D. dressage events in my area since the one in August. I'm still trying to search and network to find them. It is a 'new' sport, so still growing. 
Good luck! have fun!
Fay


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Train and compete in WD. You will have fun and maybe help shape the future of WD!

As I said I have competed in both and like the challenge of riding at a show on contact for a classic test, and turning around changing tack and riding down centerline on a draped rein.

I also have the honor of riding an Arab; not your classic dressage horse in either WD or classic dressage.....lol

Have fun!


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## hgbtx (Jan 26, 2014)

Thanks so much for trying to turn this thread around! I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it and would like to learn a thing or two.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Personally, I think this is the direction WD should head. It proves a horse is light, flexible, athletic, and can work.

Hope the link works. If not, got to youtube and search Doma Vaquero Dressage.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

This is more the direction that Cowboy Dressage is heading in as they're getting the support from Vaquero enthusiasts - they broke away from Western Dressage about a year ago to follow their own course
There's no reason why people can't do both.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I haven't read the full thread so unsure if this has already been asked, forgive me if it has.

I'm Australian and we just had 4 days of 'Equitana'. Lynn Palm from the US came over to do some Western Dressage demonstrations and training sessions.
I watched the demo and liked how the horse travelled - very soft, forward going and straight. It travelled how I would like to see a preliminary/novice Dressage horse going. 
BUT - I am curious about the use of a curb bit.
At that level in Dressage, we are using a snaffle bit. Lynn was riding in a western curb, but with two hands and full contact as we would ride in a snaffle? Is this the norm for western dressage? This bird was supposed to be one of the best so I was quite stumped to see this...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Kayty said:


> I haven't read the full thread so unsure if this has already been asked, forgive me if it has.
> 
> I'm Australian and we just had 4 days of 'Equitana'. Lynn Palm from the US came over to do some Western Dressage demonstrations and training sessions.
> I watched the demo and liked how the horse travelled - very soft, forward going and straight. It travelled how I would like to see a preliminary/novice Dressage horse going.
> ...


I'm studying WD and since I grew up in California and learned the Californio way of riding, I have some issues with WD. 2 handed with full contact in a curb is a major bone I have to pick with the discipline. However, after discussing it with Lynn Palm and my trainer, I was told that eventually they intend to pretty much do away with the curb in WD. UNLESS used by a fully trained rider on a fully trained Bridle Horse, in other words one trained in the Vaquero or Californio way. I am a lot more comfortable with how Eitan Hallachmy (Cowboy Dressage) does things than I am with WD. But, I live in OK and out here it's all about WD or nothing. Since most of what I don't like has to do with tack or how it's used, and it's very much a use it if you like, don't if you don't like, I'm sticking with the training for now. I feel like any horse can benefit from dressage training and movements, and it is a lot of fun and the people so far seem to be pretty nice. 

WD is still evolving and I think in 5 years from now it will look very different than it does today. I think there'll be a lot more consistency with what tack is acceptable and how to use it, what bits will be used and when, a bunch of different things. 

Right now, they're concentrating on, as someone else put it, getting butts in the saddle. They'll work on refinements when they have a real good, loyal core group. Right now, a lot of the trainers who are training WD wouldn't even talk about it 3 years ago and now they're training and judging. So, it's worth watching to see how it develops.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Kayty said:


> I haven't read the full thread so unsure if this has already been asked, forgive me if it has.
> 
> I'm Australian and we just had 4 days of 'Equitana'. Lynn Palm from the US came over to do some Western Dressage demonstrations and training sessions.
> I watched the demo and liked how the horse travelled - very soft, forward going and straight. It travelled how I would like to see a preliminary/novice Dressage horse going.
> ...


I imagine because the curb has its traditions rooted in western riding but since you already said - the horse was very soft, forward, straight - the curb and how it was used was obviously not at all detrimental to its performance


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

No Jaydee it was not detrimental however I have always thought that the curb was intended to be used without contact hence my question.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I've no experience at all with western curbs so I can only base opinion on how the horse is responding - we use the Weymouth bit 'on contact' when we ride in a double so I suppose maybe its a more a case of tradition versus 'well it can be done so why not'


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

True, but when we ride in a double the contact is primarily on the snaffle rather than the curb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It should be - but the rein on the Weymouth is usually the same length as the snaffle rein so who knows how much pressure is on it
Again - I think its best to look at how the horse seems to be going and leave it at that
These Vaquero riders seem to have their horses on quite a close contact
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47um6ld4IBQ


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

jaydee said:


> It should be - but the rein on the Weymouth is usually the same length as the snaffle rein so who knows how much pressure is on it
> Again - I think its best to look at how the horse seems to be going and leave it at that
> These Vaquero riders seem to have their horses on quite a close contact
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47um6ld4IBQ


Nice riding in that video, jaydee.

Those horses are at the upper level of training. Their conformation is much different than the average TB or QH. And the riders' hands are like butter on a warm day. Very responsive. 

You may notice the riders are using more seat and legs than hands.


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## SketchyHorse (May 14, 2012)

For me personally I like how Cowboy Dressage is done a bit over Western Dressage, but at this rate I just wish either were being done around me! As far as I know it hasn't hit in popularity 'round here yet  Which is disappointing. My WB mare liked riding Western _so _much more than Classical Dressage. The collection wasn't for her & due to natural conformation wasn't exactly easy to achieve. She had much prettier & fluid movements when I was trying to work on "western dressage" with her rather than classical. Could have been just me causing the issues though! Lol.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

While not specifically on the subject presented by the initial post, I would like to add some historical perspective to this topic. This information is drawn from various books I have read as well as lessons and clinics I have taken and correspondence I have had with people connected with this topic.

I was born in Wisconsin but moved to Utah after attending only one half year of kindergarten. My initial impressions of horseback riding involved people riding in “Western” saddles. This was reinforced by movies and television programs about cowboys. My first real exposure to riding, however, didn’t occur until decades later when I was living in Texas and got a couple of friends together to go on pack trip in the Absaroka wilderness area in the Beartooth mountains of Wyoming. I enjoyed being with horses so much that I decided to take riding lessons when I got home.

These lessons were all done in a Western saddle. I also continued to vacation at Western dude ranches. However, I also wanted to learn to jump and took some lessons with a trainer who introduced me to the book “Cross-train Your Horse, Simple Dressage for Every Horse, Every Sport” by Jane Savoie. 

In her book, Jane Savoie described how dressage training principals had helped riders in various disciplines – including cross-country, barrel racing, reining, and even driving – improve the performance of their horses.

Then, I came across the book “Everyday Training, Backyard Dressage” written by Mary Cleveland, better known as Mary Twelveponies. She was also the author of another book I had read, entitled: “There Are No Problem Horses, only problem riders”. Mary Twelveponies is noted for her knowledge of “Western” riding, specifically that of the vaquero tradition of California. In her book “Everyday Training”, she shares how training techniques generally associated with the term “dressage” can benefit any horse. In the introduction to her book, first published in 1980, she writes how she and a friend tried to get the California Dressage Society to consider writing official tests for “western dressage”. The board tossed the idea around but finally vetoed it.

Decades later, along came Eitan Beth-Halachmy. Eitan was born in Israel where a Hungarian cavalry officer instill in him a regard for horses and horsemanship. While trained in a more “classic” tradition, Eitan was intrigued by the image of the American cowboy. Eitan eventually immigrated to the United States and combined to two ideas of riding into what he called “Cowboy Dressage”. Eitan gave dressage demonstrations in a Western saddle at the World Equestrian Games in Aachen, Germany (2006) and Lexington, Kentucky (2010). Somewhere along the line, Eiten met and influenced Jack Brainard, a well-known Western rider and trainer who had helped establish several Western riding associations.

Because Eitan had obtained a copyright on the term “Cowboy Dressage”, Jack and others have worked to develop a discipline based on the term “Western Dressage”. Disciplines, associations, and shows using both terms have continued to develop. 

While show rules may vary, the basic principals are similar: perform traditional dressage movements while riding in a “Western” saddle. On a broader level, this idea addresses the principal of using exercises based on traditional horse training – a term often referred to as “dressage” – when developing a horse for a wide variety of disciplines.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Earlier in this thread someone said Cowboy Dressage had developed about a year ago, so I am pleased to see your post TXh.

About 10 years ago, my then trainer Terry Myers wore a jacket embroidered with the logo of Cowboy Dressage.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

anndankev said:


> Earlier in this thread someone said Cowboy Dressage had developed about a year ago, so I am pleased to see your post TXh.
> 
> About 10 years ago, my then trainer Terry Myers wore a jacket embroidered with the logo of Cowboy Dressage.


Cowboy Dressage has been around a lot longer than 10 yrs. Not sure when Eitan Beth Hallachmy started doing it as a real discipline, but I do know that a friend of mine bought an AWESOME Morgan mare, trained by him in CD, back in 1999 or 2000. She was SO well trained and responsive! That's when I became impressed with his way of doing dressage.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Eitan was 'into' Cowboy Dressage from a long time back and I imagine it suited his Morgan horses really well but it wasn't until he got involved with the group that developed into Western Dressage which he then broke away from that it became competitive in its own right.
We saw him when he did a clinic at the Equine Affaire last year where he explained his vision for the sport and how it would be run - it is quite different from Western Dressage.


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

As far as I know, and my info comes from Jack Brainard in a clinic a couple of years ago, is that he AND Eitan together (and maybe others) split due to theoretical differences and that's when the two -Western Dressage and Cowboy dressage became two. I don't remember which name it was originally when it was just the one. Quite frankly, the differences that he explained were over my head and I've read both websites,,,,the wording is different, but the 'bottom line' seems the same to me-focus on lightness ,responsiveness, correct gaits. Lack of knowledge and understanding on my part, I'm sure. 

so, unless something has happened since then (2013), Jack and Eitan are in the same version of this 'dressage'. just fyi for anyone who is interested. 

Like someone else said,,,I'll attend whichever is in my area,,seems pretty scarce...

Fay


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