# What bit to use??



## gamingirl22 (Aug 1, 2011)

I have a Quarter Horse mare that I am hoping to show in gaming events, trail and walk/jog pleasure classes. She needs to have her teeth floated soon, and I can't ride her because she chewed my last bit and I can't use it anymore. I need to buy her a new bit soon so I can start riding her after the dentist takes care of her teeth. But I'm not sure what bit to use...I had a Tom Thumb with a long shank, and my horse never slowed down when I asked her to, so I think that's because she needs to have her teeth floated and that's why she wasn't listening to me very well. I heard that snaffle bits are very comfortable for the horse (I tend to pull back quite a bit on the reins when I ask her to slow down because she simply won't listen!) So I don't really know what she is truly like because her teeth were probably hurting her the whole time I was riding her. Should I just buy a snaffle bit for walk/jog western pleasure and trail classes and then use another stronger bit (long shank or curb bit) for gaming events so she will listen to me better?? I am really confused of what bit or bits I should buy...


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## FaceTheMusic (Dec 28, 2012)

OP, it sounds like you need to go back to basics with this horse. Get her listening and paying attention to you. Getting her teeth looked at is a good idea, as their teeth can cause a lot of bitting problems if not cared for. 

What bit you use really depends on the horse. A snaffle is a good choice for training and getting her working like she should. But if she is over 5 y/o you can't show her western in one. For western classes a horse 6 or older must be shown in a shanked bit. For gaming you can use anything but you might want to step away from the tom thumb, those usually cause more problems than they fix.


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## gamingirl22 (Aug 1, 2011)

Okay thanks! So should I get a broken bit or just a straight one? Also should I get a shorter shank or longer shank? Also when I'm training her, should I buy her a cheap snaffle bit because I have the tendency to yank on her mouth alot when she doesn't listen to me and slow down and isn't a snaffle easier on their mouth? I could just buy a cheap snaffle for training and then buy a nice shank bit for shows. What do you think?


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## FaceTheMusic (Dec 28, 2012)

gamingirl22 said:


> Okay thanks! So should I get a broken bit or just a straight one? Also should I get a shorter shank or longer shank? Also when I'm training her, should I buy her a cheap snaffle bit because I have the tendency to yank on her mouth alot when she doesn't listen to me and slow down and isn't a snaffle easier on their mouth? I could just buy a cheap snaffle for training and then buy a nice shank bit for shows. What do you think?


Ok, slow down a minute...
When I said you need to go back to basics I mean that you need to work with the horse so you don't have to _"yank on her mouth alot". _Is there a trainer or someone you know that is experienced with training that can help you with this horse? 
As far as bits go, I'm not sure what you mean by a 'cheap snaffle". Maybe you should look into a french link snaffle. They are about as mild as bits get. But no matter what bit you use, if you are yanking and pulling on her mouth it is going to hurt. I wouldn't put a shanked bit on her until you have sorted through her issues.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

I use my horse for similar purposes and it took quite a bit of work to make sure he was responsive so that I wouldn't have to "yank on his mouth" for a stop. Practice ground respect (stopping on the ground and backing with a verbal command, etc-- Clinton Anderson-type stuff!), and in the saddle spend a lot of time doing walk-halt-back, trot-halt-back, etc so that when you ask for a halt, your horse shifts his weight onto his haunches in anticipation of backing, thereby giving you a good solid stop.

Depending on what I'm doing, I rotate between a sidepull, a french link snaffle and a low-port, short shanked curb. Don't rely on your bit for your power! 

ETA... when you use a solid (curb) bit with shanks, keep in mind that the pressure you apply is translated to a whole lot more on the horse's mouth due to the shank/leverage. Pulling on a leverage bit can result in pain, injury or even breaking a horse's jaw if you aren't careful! When you have a solid shanked bit in your horse's mouth, constantly think about "staying out of his mouth." You shouldn't use a curb for more power-- you should use it so that you can "talk" to your horse with more subtle movements! I'd stick to a snaffle until you sort out your issues with your horse.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Also, instead of yanking on her mouth-- look up one-rein stops and lateral flexion. Yanking won't accomplish moot, but if you get in the practice of taking away your horse's head when he is non-compliant, it is much more effective.


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

gamingirl22 said:


> I had a Tom Thumb with a long shank, and my horse never slowed down when I asked her to,


That's a problem. While needing to have teeth floated can cause problems, this sounds more like a training issue. As others have already mentioned, you should look into working with a trainer. A horse that doesn't slow down is dangerous.



> (I tend to pull back quite a bit on the reins when I ask her to slow down because she simply won't listen!)


That's a big problem. A Tom Thumb is has a shank and uses leverage. This means for every pound of "pull" you are giving the reins, 2 lbs, 4 lbs or more are acting on the horse's mouth. You are not doing yourself or your horse any favors. You are actually compounding the problem by doing this. Every time you pull back hard you are causing the horse pain. Since the horse is not slowing down/stopping, you are also teaching the horse that the reins are not any kind of riding cue, but only a source of annoyance and pain. Keep it up and additional issues may follow - such as head throwing.



> Should I just buy a snaffle bit for walk/jog western pleasure and trail classes


Two ways to look at this. First, if your horse is not listening to a leverage bit, it is very possible he will completely ignore a snaffle. If he doesn't slow down now, he may listen even less in a snaffle. Before you enter ANY classes, regardless of bit, you need to fix the problem. That will be done with training (you and the horse). There is no simple equipment fix. Equipment can supplement training, but not replace it.

On the other hand, a snaffle will provide relief to the horse since when you "pull back quite a bit" there will be less pressure involved. Get a decent trainer and follow their advice. I would guess they will suggest a snaffle while you and the horse are in training. Once you both make some progress, it might be appropriate to move to a different bit.



> and then use another stronger bit (long shank or curb bit) for gaming events so she will listen to me better?? I am really confused of what bit or bits I should buy...


This becomes a vicious cycle. Your horse is already ignoring a bit which is not considered mild and works off leverage. You already note you have to pull back quite a bit. Moving to a stronger bit will only make things worse. Assuming your horse doesn't develop additional problems, he will only learn to ignore the stronger bit. Then you move to something even stronger... he learns to ignore that, and so on. 

Training is what makes the horse slow down and stop. Not the bit. A determined horse would still run away if you put barbed wire in his mouth (just an example, don't ever do that). A well trained horse and rider can change speeds and stop without any reins or bit.

A horse without brakes is a wreck waiting to happen. Get a good trainer for yourself and your horse. Work with the trainer to understand what they are doing and why. If you are able to properly reinforce what the trainer is doing, you could probably correct this issue in a very short time. That same trainer would also be in a much better position to recommend the best bit for your particular horse.


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## gamingirl22 (Aug 1, 2011)

I worked with her on the ground yesterday and she listens very well on the ground! She whoas whenever I stop and I think she is learning my voice commands. The dentist is coming out in a couple of days and I REALLY hope that is the reason why she doesn't slow down easily. So everyday that I can't ride, I'll just work on ground manners with her. She did sooo amazing yesterday!!
But whenever I was riding her and I took her from a trot to a halt, she started to back up right away. And then I squeezed her so she would stop backing up and then she jumped forward and got really antsy. How do I let her know to stop backing up without making her jumpy?


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## spurstop (Mar 22, 2012)

Well if you yank her in the mouth (and probably make her back up since those seem to go hand in hand) when she "messes up" then you have taught her to do that.

You need to go to a trainer and learn to ride your horse properly.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

gamingirl22 said:


> I worked with her on the ground yesterday and she listens very well on the ground! She whoas whenever I stop and I think she is learning my voice commands. The dentist is coming out in a couple of days and I REALLY hope that is the reason why she doesn't slow down easily. So everyday that I can't ride, I'll just work on ground manners with her. She did sooo amazing yesterday!!
> But whenever I was riding her and I took her from a trot to a halt, she started to back up right away. And then I squeezed her so she would stop backing up and then she jumped forward and got really antsy. How do I let her know to stop backing up without making her jumpy?


I really think you are not understanding what we are trying to tell you. 

You've created bad habits in your horse that are probably going to take WEEKS to fix, if not MONTHS. 

Can you imagine this for me for a moment? You are holding the bit in your hand, and I am holding the reins and bridle attached to it. I tell you to start walking in front of me. I tell you when I want you to stop, I am going to pull on the reins. But instead, I pull the bit HARD, so that you almost fall over backward. I tell you to walk ahead of me again. What do you think you'd do this time? You are going to BRACE for my hard pull, and you are going to PULL BACK on me in order to keep your own balance. You've just created a situation where I need to pull, pull, pull to get you to stop. But you are going to brace against me to keep yourself from falling over backwards. Hence the vicious cycle.

Does that make sense? This is how your horse is reacting. Yes, she may have a dental issue, but 90% of the time, it is the* rider's fault* for the horse's behavior. You have been over-pulling on her mouth, causing her to brace against you, or even ignore you, becuase you probably don't stop pulling when you should. 

Taz Devil and FaceTheMusic gave you great advice. 

You do not need a change of bit (minus that fact that a Tom Thumb is a piece of garbage and should never be put into a horse's mouth), but you need a change in the way you ride. 

How are you going to get your horse to slow down in a western pleasure class? You certainly won't score well if the judge sees you pulling and pulling on your horse's mouth. 

We can incorporate this training into your ground work. Start with a bit that does not have shanks (a snaffle bit). Stand at your horses left side. We are going to ask her to bend her nose to the left. Using the "inside" left rein as a direct rein, put a small amount of pressure on the rein. Wait for your horse to respond correctly. Since she already has bad habits, she may pull against you. Or she may try to walk away. You hold your position steady. Do NOT pull harder. But do not release her. If she walks, you move exactly with her to maintain your position. The _very instant_ that she creates slack in that rein, you need to release the rein pressure NOW. Immediately. Pet and praise. I don't care if she only moved her head 2 inches. If she created slack in the rein to find her "release" then you need to release her. Repeat on both sides until she moves her head a small amount either way. 

Slowly and gradually ask her to move a little farther in her bending. Eventually, she should bring her nose all the way to the saddle. 

Incorporate this same idea into backing up and/or stopping. The very instant she responds correctly, release those reins. She needs to get a reward for doing something correctly. That reward is pressure release (that you have not been doing correctly up until now). 

I strongly recommend you work with a trainer to show you how to do this in person. It's very hard to read something from the internet and put it into real life. 

Either way, you need to re-train your horse to listen to the bit.


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

You and your horse have no business running games, period. Don't try and slap a long shanked correction bit on her. She'll stop for awhile, and then you'll have even more work to do when you run out of bits to use.

I ran Lucky two years ago and after our first show I stuck a snaffle on her and went back to basics. Seat, leg, then rein is what you want a horse to listen to. I then ran her in a snaffle perfectly fine with a sliding stop and mainly seat/leg cues.

Now..with the snaffle, you need to learn to have light hands (with any bit). You cannot yank on her mouth and expect to be able to stop her from a gallop at the end of a pattern in a snaffle. To stop with the snaffle is progression, you've created a hard mouthed horse. Toss out the Tom Thumb, like now. Use your seat to cue a stop (with voice), if she doesn't respond in a second, slightly pull up the reins, still doesn't respond and you can THEN, and only then, "yank". What you then do if she still doesn't respond is shut her down completely with a one reins stop. This should all happen within seconds, but if she slows, you HAVE to give her that release, no matter how little. Eventually you can move up to a stop and then release, but any slowing right now deserves a reward of release of pressure.
That's basically a "Stopping for Dummies 101" type of thing since I have to go back into work. But, I agree with everyone else that you should get a trainer to retrain both of you, amd don't even think about showing this horse more than walk/trot classes when you're almost 100% positive she will stop.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

gamingirl22 said:


> But whenever I was riding her and I took her from a trot to a halt, she started to back up right away. *And then I squeezed her so she would stop backing up* and then she jumped forward and got really antsy. How do I let her know to stop backing up without making her jumpy?


Plus, you shouldn't squeeze her in order to stop her from backing. I would get rather apprehensive about it too if I were a horse. 

For her to stop backing, you should stop asking. Everyone cues for a back a little bit differently. If you use only the reins, then release your rein pressure.
If you also squeeze your legs WHILE using the rein cues, then you should stop both of those cues and she should stop. 
If you use only your legs (push your feet forward and "wiggle" them in and out), then you should stop asking with your legs and she should stop. 

Either way, you should just plain stop using your cues, which will stop her from backing. You are asking her to GO FORWARD NOW by squeezing on her, which is what she's doing. 

Again, for questions like these, it tells me you don't have that great of understanding on the best way to cue your horse, which is why it would be good for you to at least take a few lessons with a trainer. 

Don't take all these comments as personal or negative, because EVERYONE has been where you are at some point in their lives. What matters is what you do to make your riding better. Everyone can always learn something from someone else. Always.


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I wanted to jump back in with another comment. As you can see, there is definitely a common thread in the responses here. May not be what you want to hear, but it is all very good advice.

Think about this for a moment. Ever see a horse swat a fly with its tail? While we think about horses as big strong animals (they are) they are also very sensitive. They can feel a tiny fly land on them... and that's not even the most sensitive part of their body. Their mouth - where we put the bit - is much more sensitive.

Obviously even a "light" pull on a "light" bit is going to be felt much more than a fly landing on your horse's butt. Just like your leg pressure, seat and other movements are felt much more.

EVERYTHING you do when mounted is felt by the horse.

EVERY TIME you ride your horse you are training.

A horse doesn't speak english (or whatever your native language may be). The only way we have to communicate our intentions is what we do with our body. The horse "hears" every movement and (usually) does their best to do what we are asking.

If we are not consistent in our communication, the horse gets confused. Theoretically, you can train a horse to run when you pull back on the reins and to stop when you squeeze with your legs and give a kick.

The problem comes when you pull back to stop one day then pull back to go forward the next. You may not be doing something so blatantly obvious, but it is highly probably you are giving out conflicting signals - we all do at some point. 

The horse doesn't not know the difference between lifting the reins, answering a cell phone or turning your head to the left. Doing any will communicate _something_ to the horse. It is up to the rider to teach the horse what each of these things mean. If your cell phone rings every time before you cue a canter, eventually your horse will go to canter from the ring of the cell phone alone. This concept translates to everything you do in the saddle - every movement of every part of your body. Horses don't get bad habits - they are taught bad habits by their riders. It is very difficult to ride while being completely aware of _every_ single thing your body is doing - that's where a trainer can help.

When you have to "pull harder" on the reins to slow down/stop, it is not because the horse didn't hear you the first time. It is because the horse either didn't know what you wanted or intentionally ignored you. Both are training issues which can be fixed.

It is difficult for most people - and all but impossible for beginners - to really see what they are doing wrong when mounted. This is completely different than working from the ground. Spend enough time and you may be able to figure it out by yourself. It will take a while and likely result in personal injury, but it can be done. For most of us, having a qualified trainer work with us and our horse is a much quicker and safer course.


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## gamingirl22 (Aug 1, 2011)

I'm sorry, but this is my first horse (That is not a miniature) and I will have alot of questions like these, probably. But thanks so much for your help guys! I really do appreciate it. Since the weather has been so horrible here lately, I've just been working with her on ground manners and she is fantastic on the ground! Once spring comes, my aunt and my cousin will be able to come over and give me some training advice.


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## LisaG (Nov 11, 2012)

I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said, but you should know we've all been beginners, so don't get discouraged. Don't be afraid to ask questions of experienced horse people.

I would also suggest taking a few horse clinics if you have the chance and the cash. I took a few as a teenager, and even now I like to brush up every now and again. As someone else said, it's very difficult for most people to figure out what they're doing wrong without some help. Slight shifts in weight or hand position communicate something to horses, whether we intend them to or not.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

gamingirl22 said:


> I'm sorry, but this is my first horse (That is not a miniature) and I will have alot of questions like these, probably. But thanks so much for your help guys! I really do appreciate it. Since the weather has been so horrible here lately, I've just been working with her on ground manners and she is fantastic on the ground! Once spring comes, my aunt and my cousin will be able to come over and give me some training advice.


Don't apologize for asking questions! That's what the forums are for. Just as long as you have an open mind and are willing to take the advice you receive. 

Working on ground manners is a great way to start teaching your horse to respect you and trust you. I personally love Clinton Anderson's ground work DVDs and TV programs, just because I feel that he explains every thing very well so that even a beginner horse owner can understand why he is cueing the horse, what he's doing, and when he's doing it. Timing and consistency are very important. 

Always make sure you RELEASE pressure the very instant your horse does something correctly. 

For example: Let's go through an exercise of getting your horse to yield and disengage his hindquarters. You will want to have some sort of stick or whip in your right hand, merely to "make your arm longer". Hold the lead rope with slack in it, in your left hand. Don't hold the horse tight under the chin because we don't want to make him think we are forcing him to stand there. We want him to be able to move and make a mistake ... that's how we correct it and thus they learn. 

Stand off to your horse's left side (never stand directly in front of your hrose, it is not safe). When you are ready, you will want to "crouch" and "glare" with your body language directly at your horse's left hindquarters. Give your horse 2 seconds to respond. If he does not, then raise your stick at the hindquarters. Give them another 2 second to respond. If nothing, start very lightly tapping your horse's left hip with rhythm. After 2 second of nothing, very very gradually tap harder and harder. The VERY INSTANT your horse moves their hindquarters away from you, you need to stop tapping, take away the whip, take away your crouching stance, and turn away from your horse. THAT'S the pressure release for the doing the correct thing. 

Now in the beginning, even if they shift their weight in the correct direction, stop and praise. Eventually, the most correct movement will be the left hind leg crossing in front of the right hind leg, disengaging the horse's forward motion. But you've got to start with baby steps. 

If you horse crowds you with his head, use your left arm and hold it high to "block" your horse and keep them out of your personal bubble. If your horse moves forward, that's okay. Maintain your exact position (so move with your horse) and focus only on when those hindquarters disengage. 

Of course, repeat this exercise on the other side. You can also use this same concept to disengage the shoulders and move them away from you, to turn the horse when lunging, etc

Here's one free clip on YouTube I found of CA. Yes, it is a trailer loading lesson. But most trailer loading problems stem from a lack of ground work. So he gets into ground work exercises and you can see how he is asking the horse to move, the precise moment he releases pressure, etc. TIMING IS CRITICAL. If you do not release the pressure soon enough, the horse learns to brace against you. If you release too soon, the horse does not learn to respect you.


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## gamingirl22 (Aug 1, 2011)

I have been working on moving her hindquarters/forehand and sidepassing. She is doing great at it on the ground! I can't wait to ride her but the weather here in PA rains or snows every other day...I'll keep working on her ground manners though. She is an ANGEL on the ground! And thanks so much for your help, it helped me alot!


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