# Uh, isn't this neglect....?



## kelseyannxo (Jun 25, 2015)

I realize I forgot pictures. Here you go. I wish I had taken more, especially of her hindquarters where she is really bony, but these are the only ones I took.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

She needs food, water and a reasonably clean area to live in. As well as basic veterinary care If necessary to not count as neglect. Even those are pretty flexible and one needs to be noticeably lacking to get a response from the authorities. This mare is thin and not being loved. She may well need her teeth done, but there are horses who never get their teeth Floated and survive, so that is not in itself a cause for neglect exactly.

You have three choices with this sort of thing:
1)buy the horse and give her the tlc she deserves
2)tell the owner she is neglecting her horse and have a ticked off person kick you out for insulting them. This probably will not achieve anything possitive.
3) walk away and forget about it. Maybe make a tactful comment about how you found another horse and that, as a side note, you noticed her teeth might need doing.dont burn any bridges and try to forget about her.

I hate this sort of situation, but you don't have a neglect case legally, so the above options are really all you've got.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Yes that horse is a little thin, but I've seen way worse. I'm the kind of sucker that can't pass on any animal needing care. I would be leary of putting too much time and money into a lease horse though. I'm not up on lease policy, but if you ever did decide to lease then could the owner take her back? I don't know how that works. 

She looks like all she needs is someone to pay attention. Don't know what your laws are there, but here if there's food and water available there's nothing you can do. And burning bridges or making people angry won't get you anywhere. Perhaps mention to the BO that you may be interested if she'd get her teeth done?


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Is it morally wrong to only provide proper care when an animal is earning you money? I would say so. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately), it doesn't seem like the neglect here is to the level where reporting it would do any good.

It's hard to tell from the photos (at least on my phone) how skinny the horse really is versus just perhaps just a little skinny and a very poor topline. The teeth being "long" is not a concern- older horses have longer teeth (that's where the expression "long in the tooth" comes from) and they likely won't appear much shorter after a proper floating. Having sharp edges is another concern, as would unevenness, waves, etc. If the horse was kept UTD for a lease just 6 months ago (and this may not be a valid assumption of course), they may be due but are probably not too bad.

It's hard to see a horse in need and not do something about it, but short of buying them, there's generally little that can be done to assure their long term needs are taken care of. One of the unfortunate realities :-(
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I would say that sometimes people get into a bad situation. A friend of mine who works for the Sherriff's department in the equine division would label this "benign neglect". Now the word benign has two meanings the first is "kind or gentle", the second is "without medical consequence". 

The first time she used this term, I looked at her like she had two heads, but she explained it to me. The person really has no ill will towards the horse, but either through ignorance, financial difficulty or a sudden change in life (like going from a part time job to a full time job, death of a family member etc.) the person simply isn't giving the care necessary to keep an animal at its best. No permanent damage is being done and no active physical abuse is taking place, but the animal just isn't being cared for like it needs. 

That horse is indeed skinny but we got two thoroughbreds in this week for rehab that are both far worse off than your potential mare. 

One is the victim of the owner caring more about her social life than properly feeding the horse. This owner I am still angry with. There is nothing "benign" about what she has done even though she doesn't even seem to realize what she did to this animal. It is 50/50 that this horse will survive. 

The other is a victim of circumstance where the elderly owner's husband died and because of her own health issues she was unable to handle the horse (but she kept trying). This woman had a very emotional time giving up on an animal that was so loved by her husband (its a long story). 

Both of these horses are calm, gentle and willing to please former race horses and will make wonderful riding horses and partners for the right person if they can be rehabilitated to health. 

It is neglect anyway you cut it or what additional qualifiers you add but sometimes the circumstances are such that a bit of compassion can be had for the person's situation as well. 

If you like the horse and can give her the attention she needs then go ahead and lease her/buy her. They say horses live in the moment, provide her the best moments you can each and every day.


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## kelseyannxo (Jun 25, 2015)

Thanks all for your advice! Her teeth ARE sharp, not just long. Sorry if I did not clarify that, but I did say they looked to be pinching her tongue. She is getting food and water so I guess you guys are right, it isn't really "neglect" but she could definitely be living a better life. Like I said, I have another horse in mind for lease that is younger/cheaper for a full lease (as opposed to leasing this mare for same price/only 3 days a week...) and he can provide me what I need for riding/showing as he is more advanced in his skills, but if he doesn't work out I will consider leasing her. For now, I have no problem taking her under my wing.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Why would you lease a horse like this for only 3 days a week?
I don't understand how that would work - would you get to feed it properly for those 3 days and someone else feed it (not feed it) for the other 4?
You could end up paying to sort out all its problems just to call it 'yours' for 3 days
And if its sharp and lively when its malnourished how much sharper and livelier is it going to be when its in good shape?


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

My old guy looked much like that and it wasn't from neglect. His teeth were floated 1 -2 X per year, fed a senior feed plus fat and joint supplements, wormed regularly and whatever else he needed. OK, I'll admit that I spoiled him horribly after his retirement and he got whatever he wanted whether he needed it or not. LOL Some horses just don't age as well as others. Just wanted to relate that so you don't think all horses who look like that suffer from neglect.

With this mare I'm sure she could benefit from a teeth float and a good worming but if those pictures are recent and she still has that much hair it quite possible she's got cushings which would contribute to her condition as well. I don't know much about it because it's not an issue I've had to deal with but I think there are some things you can do to help manage it. Maybe do a little research and offer the owner some suggestions (politely of course).


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

JCnGrace said:


> My old guy looked much like that and it wasn't from neglect. His teeth were floated 1 -2 X per year, fed a senior feed plus fat and joint supplements, wormed regularly and whatever else he needed. OK, I'll admit that I spoiled him horribly after his retirement and he got whatever he wanted whether he needed it or not. LOL Some horses just don't age as well as others. Just wanted to relate that so you don't think all horses who look like that suffer from neglect.
> 
> With this mare I'm sure she could benefit from a teeth float and a good worming but if those pictures are recent and she still has that much hair it quite possible she's got cushings which would contribute to her condition as well. I don't know much about it because it's not an issue I've had to deal with but I think there are some things you can do to help manage it. Maybe do a little research and offer the owner some suggestions (politely of course).


 A sad situation to say the least. The BO may be barely keeping her head above water financially but the mare does deserve better care. Cushings did come into my mind when I read the part about her coat, and that would be another issue. Teeth, worming, and more food is one thing, dealing with Cushings changes the picture. I really don't know what to say. Leasing a horse with these problems is unfair. If the OP is determined to get involved the only thing I can suggest is having an honest talk with the BO and work something out. She may be willing to forego making money on this horse in exchange for having some of the necessary things done?


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

kelseyannxo said:


> Thanks all for your advice! Her teeth ARE sharp, not just long. Sorry if I did not clarify that, but I did say they looked to be pinching her tongue. She is getting food and water so I guess you guys are right, it isn't really "neglect" but she could definitely be living a better life. Like I said, I have another horse in mind for lease that is younger/cheaper for a full lease (as opposed to leasing this mare for same price/only 3 days a week...) and he can provide me what I need for riding/showing as he is more advanced in his skills, but if he doesn't work out I will consider leasing her. For now, I have no problem taking her under my wing.


 same price? I would think this one would be a free lease and you pay for her care.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

churumbeque said:


> same price? I would think this one would be a free lease and you pay for her care.


It's more typical in a partial lease to pay a flat fee roughly equivalent to half the upkeep, though sometimes you pay for half of farrier, regular vet, etc, as the services are rendered. In almost all half leases that I've seen, the owner continues to be responsible for feeding and determining what vet/farrier care the horse gets.

It's unusual for a partial lease to cost as much as a full lease, especially since OP says the barn is not a particularly nice facility. It does sound like the owner is more concerned about the horse 'paying her own way' more than anything else.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

I'm not discounting Cushings, but I've seen horses for myself in a very thin condition that hung onto their winter coats for a little longer as a matter of protection. Whether it's the body's way of protecting against the temperature changes overnight or just protecting the thinner condition of the skin from harm I'm not clear. But, I have seen it. Then when the body score comes up the coat begins to act a little more normal.

However, in any "senior" horse Cushings should always be watched for.


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

I would have trouble making a case that this is legally actionable abuse or neglect, but it is definitely below the standard I would expect of a caring owner. That said, there's little you can do about it. 
1. You can donate your own time, money, effort and care for no return and expect to get burned by the owner somewhere down the road. 
2. You can cut all strings and stop caring more about the horse than the owner does. 
3. You can offer to buy the mare and take care of her properly.

These situations always suck, and it's the animals that get stuck in the middle.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I'm guessing she may be older then that.

Sounds like her teeth haven't been done in a lot more then 6 months. I'd be curious for pics. They may just be slanted due to age.

My guess is she has Cushings. I have seen well cared for horses looking way worse than this from Cushings. She needs to be tested and provided with proper medication and care. As well as teeth and feet of course. Probably heaves too. I really think she's just an old horse with old horse issues that no one has bothered to address. As opposed to straight out neglect (though the issues obviously should be addressed).

Can you mention Cushings to the owner? Sounds like she cares so I'm not sure what's going on. My heart goes out to this little horse, I would buy her in a second, she's so sweet.


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## kelseyannxo (Jun 25, 2015)

Wow, I am overwhelmed by all of your responses. Thanks for the opinions and pointing out the possibility of Cushings. To be honest, I did not think of that, but it sounds likely, since she is in the age range. 






jaydee said:


> Why would you lease a horse like this for only 3 days a week?
> I don't understand how that would work - would you get to feed it properly for those 3 days and someone else feed it (not feed it) for the other 4?
> You could end up paying to sort out all its problems just to call it 'yours' for 3 days
> And if its sharp and lively when its malnourished how much sharper and livelier is it going to be when its in good shape?


The owner offered me a partial lease. 3 days a week, $300 a month, before she asked me to come see the horse in person. I was unaware the horse was underweight and coughing. So, after riding her and realizing she was sicker than the owner had noticed, the owner suggested she would get the vet to come out and look at her. The owner told me "I won't lease her to you until she's healthy. In the mean time, feel free to lightly ride her and spend time with her."

So, the owner expects me to lease her eventually. BUT, after seeing the shape the mare is in, I'm rethinking it. The owner talked her up a lot more over the phone - I didn't know she was in bad shape and needed a lot of work done until I got to the barn. I'm saying now after meeting the mare, I don't think I would like to put $300 a month towards a horse that is hardly rideable. I WOULD, however, not be opposed to discussing a free lease with the owner so that the mare could be in good hands. Even if she isn't making money off of her, I would pay for her health related needs. I would think the owner would be happy knowing that even if she isn't making money off the horse, she has someone who would take care of her. So in a sense, the owner's not gaining anything, but she's not losing money, either. I would only put lease money towards the horse if she was in tip-top leasing condition and I could get the most for my money. I feel as though nobody living on the property will take care of her if I don't put my effort in. Overall, I'm willing to take care of her because she needs it, but I don't think she's in any condition to be leased out to someone. 

Am I making sense at all?


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## kelseyannxo (Jun 25, 2015)

Yogiwick said:


> I'm guessing she may be older then that.
> 
> Sounds like her teeth haven't been done in a lot more then 6 months. I'd be curious for pics. They may just be slanted due to age.
> 
> ...


 I do plan on having a conversation with the owner and letting her know I don't think Jade needs to be leased right now and needs to be taken care of first. I can certainly bring up Cushings to her. The owner does care about her, but not enough. She's giving her the bare minimum. :/ and she is a very sweet horse. Maybe the owner would sell her to me for free if she knew she'd be in better hands. Just thinking this stuff out, but I can't really pay more than $300 a month at this point, (which is why a lease is a better option right now,) so board is a problem if I were to buy her. I have no idea what's going through the owners mind and if any of this would be ok with her. I'm not sure how to go about the conversation. :l


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

kelseyannxo said:


> Wow, I am overwhelmed by all of your responses. Thanks for the opinions and pointing out the possibility of Cushings. To be honest, I did not think of that, but it sounds likely, since she is in the age range.
> The owner offered me a partial lease. 3 days a week, $300 a month, before she asked me to come see the horse in person. I was unaware the horse was underweight and coughing. So, after riding her and realizing she was sicker than the owner had noticed, the owner suggested she would get the vet to come out and look at her. The owner told me "I won't lease her to you until she's healthy. In the mean time, feel free to lightly ride her and spend time with her."
> 
> So, the owner expects me to lease her eventually. BUT, after seeing the shape the mare is in, I'm rethinking it. The owner talked her up a lot more over the phone - I didn't know she was in bad shape and needed a lot of work done until I got to the barn. I'm saying now after meeting the mare, I don't think I would like to put $300 a month towards a horse that is hardly rideable. I WOULD, however, not be opposed to discussing a free lease with the owner so that the mare could be in good hands. Even if she isn't making money off of her, I would pay for her health related needs. I would think the owner would be happy knowing that even if she isn't making money off the horse, she has someone who would take care of her. So in a sense, the owner's not gaining anything, but she's not losing money, either. I would only put lease money towards the horse if she was in tip-top leasing condition and I could get the most for my money. I feel as though nobody living on the property will take care of her if I don't put my effort in. Overall, I'm willing to take care of her because she needs it, but I don't think she's in any condition to be leased out to someone.
> ...


Yes you're making sense - its these 'lease arrangements' that don't make sense to me
What do YOU get out of that $300 a month if you did go ahead with it?
3 days a week you can ride the horse at no extra charge and I assume you can go and care for it as well, do you have to do that or is full board included in that $300?
How does that compare with just paying for a lesson or a trek 3 times a week?
Can anyone else ride it (at a cost that goes to the owner) on those days?
Who pays for the farrier, vet, and stuff like that?
I wonder if having a horse on full loan would cost much more, at least you'd have total control of it - or taking a rehabbed rescue horse or buying one that was being sold at a low price for a genuine reason


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

kelseyannxo said:


> I do plan on having a conversation with the owner and letting her know I don't think Jade needs to be leased right now and needs to be taken care of first. I can certainly bring up Cushings to her. The owner does care about her, but not enough. She's giving her the bare minimum. :/ and she is a very sweet horse. Maybe the owner would sell her to me for free if she knew she'd be in better hands. Just thinking this stuff out, but I can't really pay more than $300 a month at this point, (which is why a lease is a better option right now,) so board is a problem if I were to buy her. I have no idea what's going through the owners mind and if any of this would be ok with her. I'm not sure how to go about the conversation. :l


 How much does the owner charge for full care board since the place is not fancy? $300.00 for three days per week sounds rather high. I am trying to think fairly about the BO and realize that she may not have been able to afford the extra care, but the mare was still costing her some money with no return and now that someone is interested is she seeing $$$ ?


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

jaydee said:


> Yes you're making sense - its these 'lease arrangements' that don't make sense to me
> What do YOU get out of that $300 a month if you did go ahead with it?
> 3 days a week you can ride the horse at no extra charge and I assume you can go and care for it as well, do you have to do that or is full board included in that $300?
> How does that compare with just paying for a lesson or a trek 3 times a week?
> ...


 That is exactly where I am coming from too. A partial lease gets complicated but I would think that a full lease on an average horse should be board (the same amount charged to anyone) and routine extras such as shoeing, worming, etc. The BO STILL makes a profit from the board.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

kelseyannxo said:


> Wow, I am overwhelmed by all of your responses. Thanks for the opinions and pointing out the possibility of Cushings. To be honest, I did not think of that, but it sounds likely, since she is in the age range.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're such a sucker.. I love it and think that's a great plan :loveshower::loveshower:

I definitely think her issues are workable. See what the vet says. Even heaves is workable. You may just get lucky and have a great little riding horse and worst case you ride her lightly, and you just lease her so can always send her back.

So yup, see what the vet says but I think that's a good plan. Not super familiar with leases but $300/month sounds high even if her issues are manageable (they will likely still effect her somewhat). I see she caught your eye same as she caught mine (and over the internet nonetheless). That said if I'm reading this wrong and you are getting into this only out of guilt-don't.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

kelseyannxo said:


> I do plan on having a conversation with the owner and letting her know I don't think Jade needs to be leased right now and needs to be taken care of first. I can certainly bring up Cushings to her. The owner does care about her, but not enough. She's giving her the bare minimum. :/ and she is a very sweet horse. Maybe the owner would sell her to me for free if she knew she'd be in better hands. Just thinking this stuff out, but I can't really pay more than $300 a month at this point, (which is why a lease is a better option right now,) so board is a problem if I were to buy her. I have no idea what's going through the owners mind and if any of this would be ok with her. I'm not sure how to go about the conversation. :l


I would just say I really do like her but I am concerned about her condition it was worse than I expected. Bring up Cushings/heaves and say you think a vet check is something she really needs regardless and depending on the results you may be interested in working out a plan. If you feel awkward with this you can use a "safe" (and very true) line "you may not realize looking at her regularly but as someone looking for the first time many things jump out that you may just be accustomed to". Don't buy her unless you are SURE you want to (for the right reasons) and you know you can afford it, otherwise she may not be better off. Wait for what the vet says, then say that you want to buy her but due to x issues can't put any money into her but if she would be interested you would take her and make sure to give her an excellent home and all the care she needs (and take care of x meds and such that are probably expensive that the vet will probably want her on). Or you could offer a long term free lease where she's basically yours.

Agree she doesn't look that bad and not "neglected" but not ready to be leased out either. Her care needs to come first before just "first come first served".

Let us know what you decide and how things go. I would stay "interested" for now to push the vet to come out either way!

I agree that a partial lease sounds iffy to me in this situation, I would want a full lease and probably off property!


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## kelseyannxo (Jun 25, 2015)

Ok...I just typed out a huge message and one accidental click on my iPhone and it was gone.......grrrrrrr

Great advice, yogiwick. That sounds like a great way to go about the conversation. The BO is really interested in making money off of her more than anything, and I can see right through her. 

The cough is persistent. Jade has all of the symptoms of heaves, including the weight loss and labored breathing. I'm going to check her respirations tomorrow and if they are abnormal, I will push (again) for a vet visit. She was running a fever a few days ago and when I asked the BO today if the fever was still prominent, the BO hesitated, looked around awkwardly and then said, "no." It made me think she was lying to make me feel better or something...? 

I rode Jade today for quite some time in the outdoor ring because her cough wasn't as severe in the quicker gaits. She was wild on the bit and under saddle. She's not a mouthy horse and responds to slim to none mouth contact. She was almost impossible to steer or halt. She would be on the rail one minute, and in the center of the ring the next. It was like I had no control, even when I used my legs as a steering aid. Her trot is incredibly forward and when we picked up the canter, she suddenly turned on a dime through a corner and went straight for a 3' jump. I quickly cued her to turn away from the jump and actually almost fell off because of how quick she darted the opposite way, throwing her head in the process. I am an experienced jumper and a rider of 15 years. I can jump almost anything with ease. But her back is too weak and bony for me to jump her right now and with the way she acts on the bit, I don't trust her over fences. I felt like I was riding a green 3 year old. She does jump, but I don't think I've ever actually felt so nervous heading towards one of them with her. And for once, I felt out of control in the saddle. My friend who rode her XC last year hopped on her afterwards and agreed that she was being difficult. She told me she's a difficult horse who brought her to tears before she could figure her out. 

After today, I will not put money towards this horse. I believe that riding should be a fun and enjoyable experience, and enjoying it was the last thing I did today. I've never felt so frustrated in the saddle. I won't pay a monthly lease for a horse that I feel like a.) I cannot control and b.) is too sick to be ridden to her full capability. I will have to have that conversation with the BO sooner than expected. My friend is still choosing to be optimistic and believes I should lease her when she's ready, but I think deep down she knows just as well as I do that she's a lot more work than we both thought...

That being said, the only way I will continue with Jade is if, Yogiwick, I can get what you suggested. Free lease/free to a good home/etc. If the BO starts asking for money before Jade improves, I will have to deny the offer. She's a great mare, super sweet, and I love lightly riding her (trails, slow trotting), grooming her, lunging...but $300 a month for a partial lease is asking WAY too much! Not to mention, a horse that I've found is hardly rideable! (She still has a place in my heart, though. I really do love her, despite her difficulties. I've grown to love that little mare personality over the past week or so!)


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Looking at everything you've said plus I really don't like this whole part lease idea I'd walk away because I just see it as a way for the owner to get guaranteed money every month for what is essentially just a riding school horse - if you pay per ride you only pay when you ride, if you lease to ride then you pay regardless but the horse isn't your own in the way that a horse you buy or loan would be.


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

I was going to ask you what condition the other horses are in, because it seems odd if just one horse is in rough shape. 

I'm glad the BO "saw the light" and is going to get the vet out for her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

kelseyannxo said:


> Ok...I just typed out a huge message and one accidental click on my iPhone and it was gone.......grrrrrrr
> 
> Great advice, yogiwick. That sounds like a great way to go about the conversation. The BO is really interested in making money off of her more than anything, and I can see right through her.
> 
> ...


Interesting update. I didn't know she had a fever so something is going on. Can you take it yourself to be sure? I wouldn't ride her if she does. Could be why she was difficult. Agree as adorable as she is not worth putting money into unless you own (or "own") her. Practical comes first. Quite likely the saddle doesn't fit well in her condition. I would definitely not be pushing it at this point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kelseyannxo (Jun 25, 2015)

I probably could take it myself, I just don't know where the thermometer is at the barn. :/ I took her respirations today just after taking her out of the stall, no exercise, and they were 24 per minute, which means she probably has a moderate case of heaves...I don't know when the vet plans on coming, but I hope it's soon, for her sake. They're starting to give her one more scoop of grain at feeding time to try to get her to gain weight. I plan on trace clipping her very soon because she's been sweating like crazy with that winter coat and she's also been shedding an excessive amount, too. :/


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## kelseyannxo (Jun 25, 2015)

SlideStop said:


> I was going to ask you what condition the other horses are in, because it seems odd if just one horse is in rough shape.
> 
> I'm glad the BO "saw the light" and is going to get the vet out for her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The other horses she has at the barn are in pretty good shape...but most of them are boarders. Her horses that she owns are in pretty good shape, too, but only because she uses them for summer camp for children so she's making money off of them. So it only makes sense for her to give the most care to those guys. -____-


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## kelseyannxo (Jun 25, 2015)

Guys. Update.

So, for the last week now the BO has been telling me she called the vet for Jade and the vet never returned her call because of the Holiday weekend. 

Well, when I went to see Jade tonight, the BO was there but only said "hi" to me. Later on when I was home, I was texting my friend and found out the vet was out there this morning for an emergency for another horse. I'm under the impression Jade wasn't seen because it was just for an emergency, but still....

Wouldn't the vet come out by now considering the holiday weekend is over?

Idk. Something smells fishy.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

That mare is Skinny.. in those pics you can see the bone at her croup down to her tail. that should Never be that prominent. It is neglect if she cannot eat because of her teeth, and if she is sick and not treated... Neglect which in some states can be considered abuse. 
The animal control here, would go check all the horses (hers) and if she did not improve the mare, they would have the horse confiscated, unless they could talk the owner into surrending the mare. You are nice , being concerned, and you are probably right. She wont get the horse cared for until she is making money off it. I would gets some pics of her showing her hind end bones, teeth and have a non horsey friend send them to animal control. BUT there will be a question as to how they got the pics. maybe you could talk her into giving you the mare, and you boarding it ?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

kelseyannxo said:


> I probably could take it myself, I just don't know where the thermometer is at the barn. :/ I took her respirations today just after taking her out of the stall, no exercise, and they were 24 per minute, which means she probably has a moderate case of heaves...I don't know when the vet plans on coming, but I hope it's soon, for her sake. They're starting to give her one more scoop of grain at feeding time to try to get her to gain weight. I plan on trace clipping her very soon because she's been sweating like crazy with that winter coat and she's also been shedding an excessive amount, too. :/


If she still has a thick coat now then she likely has Cushings, a thyroid problem or IR (that can also cause a thick coat) 
My horses have fine thin coats but in the humidity we're getting at present they're sweating so that poor girl must be really struggling. It might not be heaves that's causing her breathing trouble but heat exhaustion
Is this place a riding school or some sort of a Charity rescue centre?
I don't know what the rules are here but in the UK a horse with health troubles can't legally be used for lessons or trekking/trail riding in a pay for hire situation.
Most of the 'one man band' Vet practices around here do a shared emergency cover with a group of other vets so someone is always available in holiday periods


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

If she's coughing, good chance she has copd (heaves). Unless medicated, horses generally start losing weight, a slow gradual process but one that can be extremely difficult to reverse. It may have taken several years to get to this point with her weight. The reason they lose weight is because the heart is working harder to get adequate supplies of oxygen and the diseased lungs trap some of the carbon dioxide it should be expelling on the exhale. Think of it this way. You need a gallon of water. You have the right pail but with rocks in the bottom there's no room for the full gallon. No matter what you get only 3/4 gal.


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## kelseyannxo (Jun 25, 2015)

stevenson said:


> That mare is Skinny.. in those pics you can see the bone at her croup down to her tail. that should Never be that prominent. It is neglect if she cannot eat because of her teeth, and if she is sick and not treated... Neglect which in some states can be considered abuse.
> The animal control here, would go check all the horses (hers) and if she did not improve the mare, they would have the horse confiscated, unless they could talk the owner into surrending the mare. You are nice , being concerned, and you are probably right. She wont get the horse cared for until she is making money off it. I would gets some pics of her showing her hind end bones, teeth and have a non horsey friend send them to animal control. BUT there will be a question as to how they got the pics. maybe you could talk her into giving you the mare, and you boarding it ?


I agree. It's not so much her ribs that are prominent, it's her hind end that looks extremely bony. I am considering asking to take the mare off her hands because I know she would be in better care with me...I would actually get the vet out there, get her teeth/feet done, clip her (because it's just cruel to keep her winter coat, she's sweating like crazy even without exercise), and get her the treatment she needs for whatever illness she has. I just know that the vet bills will probably be pretty high depending on what she's got. My guess is heaves.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

If she has her winter coat she's either full of worms or Cushings. Cushings is treated with Pergolide. Might be in your best interest to find the cost on that. If Cushings they are much more prone to laminitis. If she also has heaves, there's the cost of treating that as well. Did I miss where you tell us how old she is?


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## kelseyannxo (Jun 25, 2015)

Thank you guys, again, for all your info. I rode her today and she was a little better as far as responding to cues goes. Her canter is still horrendous because she's so unbalanced but we made a lot of progress in her trot. I believe she has potential (IF the vet gets out there) and my friend told me the BO may consider letting me take her/ride and care for her for free depending on the timing of their summer camp ending. I would think the BO would be happy she has someone to care for her, right? Here's some pics of her condition. I took them today after brushing her. Let me know what you think.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I wouldn't even consider riding her until I had some blood tests run to see why she looks like that - you need to know if she has Cushings or IR or maybe a thyroid problem, she might have worms or irreparable damage from encysted worms, she could have ulcers - just so many things that need looking at plus she's very underweight and that alone would be a big 'No No' to me in terms of her working
Pergolide is successful for treating Cushings - not a cure though and it isn't cheap


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## kelseyannxo (Jun 25, 2015)

jaydee said:


> I wouldn't even consider riding her until I had some blood tests run to see why she looks like that - you need to know if she has Cushings or IR or maybe a thyroid problem, she might have worms or irreparable damage from encysted worms, she could have ulcers - just so many things that need looking at plus she's very underweight and that alone would be a big 'No No' to me in terms of her working
> Pergolide is successful for treating Cushings - not a cure though and it isn't cheap


I said the same thing about not wanting to ride her because she was so sick/skinny and my friend and BO kept insisting she was fine to ride and she won't "get better" unless she's ridden so she can gain more muscle.....it sounded wrong to me but I figured they know her better than I do, so I did. :|


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

They don't know better - you cannot build muscle out of nothing, that mare needs some flesh on her to turn into muscle
Its impossible to guess whats wrong with her but I'm thinking a combination of things that all need treating ASAP
You should find somewhere else to help out and ride where they take proper care of their horses


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## kelseyannxo (Jun 25, 2015)

Thanks guys. I went and saw another horse today up for lease and it was love at first sight. I'm going to go with him because as much as I love this mare, I can't keep pushing the owner to take care of her own horse. There's only so much I can do that doesn't involve professional diagnosis and treatment.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

kelseyannxo said:


> I probably could take it myself, I just don't know where the thermometer is at the barn. :/ I took her respirations today just after taking her out of the stall, no exercise, and they were 24 per minute, which means she probably has a moderate case of heaves...I don't know when the vet plans on coming, but I hope it's soon, for her sake. They're starting to give her one more scoop of grain at feeding time to try to get her to gain weight.* I plan on trace clipping her very soon *because she's been sweating like crazy with that winter coat and she's also been shedding an excessive amount, too. :/


Don't bother. Do all of it.

If she sheds eventually anyways, great, if not she'll need it.

Doesn't sound super fishy but I would at least expect them to have an appointment even if it's not for a little bit.

Read your update. I think she's older than they say (teeth being slanted is not typically a sign of lack of dental work but of age) with health issues. I think she's a fantastic little horse, but she's a project and unless they would give/sell her you still wouldn't even own her and even if you did it would be effort to get her to where she should be. I think it's doable definitely and it SHOULD be done, but it's not your job to do it unless you really WANT to.

I hope Jade's owner steps up, but ultimately you are not the owner and you have found the right horse for you without fighting to make someone else do their job. That's never fun and never ends well. Good luck, let us know how your lease goes!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Good luck with the new horse - I hope this one works out better


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Oh and now that you have taken a step back. Call animal control. That's not OK. She is clearly unhealthy.

I had an old sick mare that was in very bad shape towards the end. BUT her coat shown and she was brushed spotlessly daily. She got bathed in the summer and blanketed in the winter and pampered as much as realistically possible. Her face was happy and relaxed up until the end.

I do NOT think age and even *most* health issues (we suspect our mare may of had stomach cancer) are an excuse for weight, but let's disregard that not so minor detail for a second. Her coat is stark and glaring and even with you brushing her she looks like she hasn't been touched in months. IF she was the perfect weight she is still screaming "unhealthy" and "uncared for". Not acceptable. Even moreso not acceptable just because she's past her usefulness....

I worked at a questionable stable and while nothing was flat out abuse left as I couldn't handle the lack of empathy (though of course they said they took the best care etc etc eyeroll...). I love that law in the UK. It should definitely be in play here!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It isn't perfect in the UK Yogiwick but at least the law's there so that anyone who does have concern over the welfare of a riding school or trekking centre horse/pony has somewhere to turn too to complain - though I can't help but feel that CT Laws on Animal Welfare would find the condition of this pony unacceptable in as much as they're using it for hiring out to the general public to ride


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## tinaev (Dec 2, 2012)

JCnGrace said:


> My old guy looked much like that and it wasn't from neglect. His teeth were floated 1 -2 X per year, fed a senior feed plus fat and joint supplements, wormed regularly and whatever else he needed. OK, I'll admit that I spoiled him horribly after his retirement and he got whatever he wanted whether he needed it or not. LOL Some horses just don't age as well as others. Just wanted to relate that so you don't think all horses who look like that suffer from neglect.


If my 21 year old Thoroughbred looked like this horse on a daily basis I would be thrilled. His teeth are floated once a year, he gets fed plenty of food and has access to grazing all day, he gets wormed, etc. He gets everything he needs and gets ridden only once a week, mostly at a walk, for about three miles. He's just not aging well despite all of my efforts.

While it does sound like this horse has suffered a small amount of neglect judging by the pictures it doesn't look like she is nearly as bad off as your description made her sound. 

I hope Jade finds a person to love on her soon. Sounds like she's a great horse. :cowboy:


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## kelseyannxo (Jun 25, 2015)

Yogiwick said:


> kelseyannxo said:
> 
> 
> > I probably could take it myself, I just don't know where the thermometer is at the barn. :/ I took her respirations today just after taking her out of the stall, no exercise, and they were 24 per minute, which means she probably has a moderate case of heaves...I don't know when the vet plans on coming, but I hope it's soon, for her sake. They're starting to give her one more scoop of grain at feeding time to try to get her to gain weight.* I plan on trace clipping her very soon *because she's been sweating like crazy with that winter coat and she's also been shedding an excessive amount, too. :/
> ...


You are so sweet. Thank you. It really helps to hear that from another person because to be honest, my friend almost makes me feel guilty for wanting to look at another horse. I don't think she does it on purpose, but if I mention anything about Noah (the horse I saw today,) she'll say, "are you not interested in Jade anymore? I don't think you should give up on her." It really, really, REALLY breaks my heart to stop working with Jade but you're right, I'm not her owner and I don't have any responsibility for her. It is really quite unsettling, though, to know that if I stop going to the barn to take care of her, she's going to go back into that pasture and rot again. Poor thing. I wish some people would just step up and take ownership of what they have on their hands, i.e, an aging and sick horse. Just because I'm not capable of putting all of my work and time into her doesn't mean she should be thrown away again until another prospective leasee comes along and goes through the same thing I did.


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## kelseyannxo (Jun 25, 2015)

And thank you to EVERYONE who replied. You guys really helped me out, truly. It feels great knowing that I had almost 50 posts of people backing up my concerns and giving me advice on what to do in this situation, because to be honest, I was alone. My parents said "that's neglect! That's abuse!" but my parents don't know a horse from a donkey. They know nothing, and so I couldn't really take much advice from them. But I guess anyone with eyes can see that she's unwell no matter what illness she's suffering from. 

I think it's a very fine line as far as abuse or neglect goes because although she is turned out daily in a pasture, given plenty of food and water, she isn't receiving the healthcare or physical upkeep she needs to remain healthy through her age. And although it's obvious to all of us on here, I have a feeling calling animal control would result in "she has food, water, and space and that's all she needs. There's nothing we can do." I wonder if calling them would get me anywhere. I would feel bad for throwing the BO under the bus because that's just the kind of person I am, but I know Jade would be so much better off with someone who cares.


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## chl1234 (Jul 10, 2015)

Haven't read everything, but did notice comments about Cushings (sp?) disease. It could be Cushings or it could be poor nutrition

I had an older horse that I 'loaned' out to different people--they kept him and fed him, all I required was that I know where he is, he wasn't transferred without my consent, and he came home if they didn't want him any more. When he was in his early 20's he was with a friend's neighbors for their grandchildren to ride when they came around. After they had him for a year, the called me and said to come get him because he was sick. Anyway, I get there and they told me he had Cushings--he was a bit underweight and hadn't shed out his winter coat though it was early summer. I asked what they were feeding him. The showed me...I asked if he was getting any supplements-no. So I took him home, put him on a vitamin and mineral supplement and in one week he had gained back all the weight, was sleek and smooth and looked great. I leased him again for a few years but required he be kept at the same place as my own horses. Finally moved to Mississippi--he lived 12 years semi-retired on pasture before finally passing from this life at the age of 36--sleek, fat, and (mostly) healthy, done in by peaches (35+ eaten in one day).

However, I've also seen older horses that look like skeletons with skin in spite of getting the best possible care.


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