# My foundation is being put to the test



## Luv 2 Trail (Jun 11, 2009)

Sounds like you've done a great job with your horse! I have a mare that is "difficult" at times and I've had Vets that thought they could use rough hands and they all found out she would have none of it! Keep up the good work - Arie is lucky to have you! I hope he heals quickly from his injury.


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

That's great! You should be very proud of what you have accomplished, and know that you are on the right path, especially with this horse.

I am very interested in what you did for needle therapy. Walka was very needle phobic (probably due to what he went through as a foal with surgery to correct his Ryes (sp.) nose). It finally came to a head and unfortunately I got trampled in the process. Since then, we have made tremendous progress, and he stands like a brave gelding! It takes a lot for him, but he makes such a courageous effort. His anxiety is so high, that when he needs to be tranqed, they have to give him more because the first dose wears off because of his anxiety.

Could you give some info on what you did for needle therapy? Very interested in learning in case we have a regression.


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## MuleWrangler (Dec 15, 2009)

Great job, Spirithorse! It means so much when you know an animal like that trusts you because of the work you have done and the effort you have put into it. 

Vets/farriers who feel they have to be rough right off the bat without even seeing what kind of temperament an equid has have no place in the vet business, in my opinion! I have a 6-y/o stud donkey and he is an extremely good boy. The vet came out for something (wolf teeth removal, maybe?) and the first thing the vet tech with him did was walk up to my boy, grab his beautiful ear, and twist it down hard. I could have knocked him into next week! I immediately grabbed his hand and got it off Tom's ear and told him he didn't need to ever come back to my property. He didn't even assess Tom's behavior (standing still and calmly with ears forward) or anything, just grabbed. And people wonder how their animals got ear-shy, or why they hate the vet...


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Im sooo happy to hear that he was okay! 

Good Job!!  
Ive been delaying the needle prep work with Chance because she has yet to need it, but its something to think about.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

For the needle prep I first started with being able to pound on his neck. I know some vets do that so I figured I might as well have him used to it. I didn't stop until he relaxed. The point is to get them to relax their neck muscles so that it doesn't hurt so much when the needle goes in. So then I just pushed my finger into his neck and started teaching him to either lower his head or turn his head slightly toward me when he feels that pressure, thus relaxing the muscle. Once he was ok with that, I pinched a piece of skin between my fingers.....than between my nails (which help if they are long)....then I used a toothpick to ***** him in the neck. I also started taking a syringe out with me and I would have it in my hand as if I'm gonna give him a shot and poke him with the toothpick. I also got him used to it on the underside of his neck as if coggins was being pulled. With Arie it was tough b/c he used to try to bite, strike and rear with shots, but now, if the vet approachs correctly, he stands well.


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

Thanks Spirithorse, that sounds very similar to what I did to get Walka more comfortable with needles. He still has anxiety, but he will now stand there and "suck it up" and be brave. He is learning to trust us not to hurt him. After all, some of those moose flies hurt much worse than the needles. :shock::wink:

I also found that he looks to me to see if he should be overly concerned. If my demeanor is business as usual, he takes that lead beautifully.


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## RadHenry09 (Mar 22, 2009)

Ahhh, needle issues , Radar hates needles...I need to work on this with him as well before it is needed . The vet is quick and I am not but I need to get him better prepared for sure.

Great job Spirithorse!


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Even now, I'm "upping" the game with Arie with needles. I'm going to make things a little less comfortable even more to build his tolorence. Arie is a difficult horse in a lot of areas, getting over his baggage with needles being one area, so it's requiring me to stretch the limits of what I know and to experiment and to find the answer myself by simply staying true to the principles I've learned....I'm certainly becoming an even better independent learner!


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

I'm glad everything is going okay! I hope he makes a speedy recovery with no complications


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Thank you  I hope so as well.


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## RadHenry09 (Mar 22, 2009)

I have finally got the chance to watch the new savvy club dvd, dealing with the treatment prep. That was just what I needed to help me and Radars fear of needles. The whole dvd was very well put together and informative....I like the fact that Pat is using horses that he doesnt know and they act up like our horses would...some of them havent really even been introduced to the 7 games.

SpiritHorse : Have you gotten the chance to watch it yet? What are your thoughts if you have?


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I have not watched it yet seeing as I haven't been home (been staying at a friend's house to take care of Arie), but a friend of mine did and told me about it and said it was good. She told me about what Pat did in order to take the horse's temperature, actually pressing on the hole and so on, so I did that with Arie and it really helped him tolorate it better! I'm glad it helped you with needle prep, I'm happy they finally did a DVD on treatment!


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## 5cuetrain (Dec 11, 2009)

No one ever even thinks about the foundation until the wind is a blowing and the walls are a shakin!!

Thats when a good foundation pays off in spades. Every horse has his "Holy S__T!"" issues. With a good foundation, trust and respect all can be overcome.

Try not to blame the vet too much--remember he is expected to get his work done and for sure he has had some real idiots on the end of the rope--both ends for sure. Sounds like he is beginning to trust that you are not one of them.

Give that girl a cupie doll!!


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Nah I blame the vet to a degree. I told him beforehand that he needed to go slow but he blew me off. So he got what he had coming not listening to me lol. I'm thankful he didn't get hurt, don't get me wrong, but I do think he learned a lesson.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Congradulations on standing your ground firmly on what you believe in. That is sometimes hard to do when the other person is supposed to be the professional


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Thank you  That's one thing you do not do with me, is try/think about man-handling my horse. Arie can hold his own just fine, but it's my job to protect him from experiences like that. I would have laid the smack down right then and there if he had kept arguing with me! lol.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> Nah I blame the vet to a degree. I told him beforehand that he needed to go slow but he blew me off. So he got what he had coming not listening to me lol. I'm thankful he didn't get hurt, don't get me wrong, but I do think he learned a lesson.


One of my young guys needed 17 stitches in his chest. He was in cross ties and when the vet arrived he was going to sedate him but I told him to just freeze the area and sew him up. The horse stood perfectly still while the vet clipped the area and then sewed him up. He never moved but I noticed a slight flinch at the end of the cut and that was because the freezing never took at the very end.
He then stuck him with 2 needles again just up and stuck them in the neck. There was no messing around, the horse just stood and accepted.

Is he less then your horse because he accepted????
When they put him down for a shattered leg they needed a port in his neck so they inserted one and sewed it in so they could inject him easier and faster. Again he just stood rock still on his 3 legs and accepted.
Lost a great boy that day.. AGain was he less because he didn't make a fuss, was his foundation weak? or was it alot stronger then yours.

I do the herd plan on 25 horses. About 20 stand perfectly for the needles and the tube with dewormer squirted down the throat.
5 fight everything but looking at the owners it is easy to see their weakness. AGain does the 20 have a poorer foundation then your guy or is he more related to the 5 fighters??

I feel the vet has every right to expect a good horse, a co-operative horse as does the farrier. It is expected and if your horse fights I don't consider it much of a foundation.

We use to do the teeth without without sedation and they stood , not anymore, now the vets all use sedation but my old guy just stood and accepted.

I guess I just need to work on my foundation more so he can be a real little puke when it comes time for the vet to handle him.:lol:
You did a good job showing the vet that you don't just go up to your horse and stick a need in him. Good job on building a solid foundation.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Well aren't you just a peach RiosDad. You know, you're an *** for posting what you did. You don't know my horse, in fact I know you wouldn't last 2 seconds with him, and I know what is best for my horse thank you very much. So don't think that you are all high and mighty simply because you had horses without extreme needle baggage. So take your critical, nasty, arrogant attitude elsewhere.


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## jiblethead (Dec 14, 2009)

My horse is terrified of needles...just like me. Good job!


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> Well aren't you just a peach RiosDad. You know, you're an *** for posting what you did. You don't know my horse, in fact I know you wouldn't last 2 seconds with him, and I know what is best for my horse thank you very much. So don't think that you are all high and mighty simply because you had horses without extreme needle baggage. So take your critical, nasty, arrogant attitude elsewhere.


Spirithorse like your name you are not real.. In the real world you won't last a minute. If your horse is as flakey as you let one I won't own him. He would be put down. And this goes alot further then extreme needle baggage. It will extend into every day's activities. The horse needs to learn who is boss, to accept and do as he is told.

Both of you would be much better off it you understood that.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> Well aren't you just a peach RiosDad. You know, you're an *** for posting what you did. You don't know my horse, in fact I know you wouldn't last 2 seconds with him, and I know what is best for my horse thank you very much. So don't think that you are all high and mighty simply because you had horses without extreme needle baggage. So take your critical, nasty, arrogant attitude elsewhere.


I agree with Riosdad. If your horse had the foundation that you think he does he would have stood for the vet the first time. If you are the only person that can handle your horse without being in danger then I would say that your foundation has been put to the test and found lacking.


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I agree with Riosdad. If your horse had the foundation that you think he does he would have stood for the vet the first time. If you are the only person that can handle your horse without being in danger then I would say that your foundation has been put to the test and found lacking.


Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but here is the difference between you and RD- see how you did not have to resort to name calling and personal digs? I'm sorry but this forum is not a place for people to come and slam one another when they disagree. Everyone has something to learn and advice to give, calling names has no place on this forum.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

tealamutt said:


> Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but here is the difference between you and RD- see how you did not have to resort to name calling and personal digs? I'm sorry but this forum is not a place for people to come and slam one another when they disagree. Everyone has something to learn and advice to give, calling names has no place on this forum.


Did you miss this???


Originally Posted by *Spirithorse*  
_Well aren't you just a peach RiosDad. You know, you're an *** _

_I'm sorry but this forum is not a place for people to come and slam one another when they disagree. Everyone has something to learn and advice to give, calling names has no place on this forum_

_I agree_
_RioDad_


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

You're right, spirithorse shouldn't have called you a name, but you did attack her so I can understand where this uncharacteristic behavior came from. Not excusing it, it was wrong. However, look through your own history of posts and try to objectively see them through another's eyes and understand how negative and confrontational you almost always are. You'd be hard pressed to find another user on here who starts so many fights. 

I think you have valuable advice to give, but no one wants to take it when it is forced on them, or when they are made to feel inferior for not knowing. You don't know the history on her horse, you jumped in and attacked. Maybe she has had this horse a short period of time and he came with issues. I'm just saying, tone it down so we can hear the advice behind the attacks.

hijack over, let's get back on topic please!!


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

tealamutt said:


> You don't know the history on her horse, you jumped in and attacked. Maybe she has had this horse a short period of time and he came with issues. hijack over, let's get back on topic please!!


I was on the topic. Attack her?? I was posting on what I thought of her foundation. Was that not the topic?? Am I only to agree or have I the right to disagree??
The vet comes and he has to jump through hoops to get near the horse, to work on the horse and we all applaud her and boo the vet???


This is not something to brag about, it is a poor foundation. As for how long she has had the horse? I don't care. I have a history of starting young unhandled pukes, studs and in a week you wouldn't recognize it was the same horse. I have had to tie a young guys head to a post, have my wife play with his lips to nail on 4 shoes the same day he arrived because tomorrow he will be out running trail, like it or not.
Again has she had this horse a week? a month?? Will it be safe for the vet to handle next month???
Kickers, biters, pullers are broke and I use the word broke in the first week. Again is Spiritshorse that new??
I pitty the vet, the farrier, I know she trims herself but I pitty anyone who has to work on the horse.

Call this foundation?? I don't think so. I know so.

You want to talk about foundation?? A young horse caught on an overpass over a big expressway, no sidewalk, no room for more then 2 cars to pass and over 600 feet wide and you get caught right in the middle of the bridge by a snow plow with the blade down, you have a 4 or 5 foot path between the rail which is about ankle height for the rider and a blade scrapping the pavement and you expect, demand the young horse to hold. That is foundation.


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

sent you a PM RD


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

How about people who don't know me, my horse, or my situation stop bashing and criticizing it?  I didn't start this thread so people who are ignorant to all of the above things can give me unwanted opinions. My training philosophies are different than yours, it focuses on the relationship first, not just going in and getting things done at whatever cost...so give it a rest.


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

Spirithorse, I don't doubt what you have done for Arie, because you have helped my horse so much and you haven't even MET him. When I am a vet, I will definitely listen to clients like you and take the time to approach the horse and situation appropriately. After all, the owner is the expert on their animal and I am just the medical monkey coming in to help out!!


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

That attitude will play a huge part in making you an awesome vet  More vets should have that attitude, more horses would be calm and not defensive!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> That attitude will play a huge part in making you an awesome vet  More vets should have that attitude, *more horses would be calm and not defensive*!


The same could be said of people that start threads about the foundation they have on thier horses. I would be embarassed if my horse couldn't take getting a shot from the vet without nearly hurting him but you think he got what he deserved. WOW!!


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> How about people who don't know me, my horse, or my situation stop bashing and criticizing it?  I didn't start this thread so people who are ignorant to all of the above things can give me unwanted opinions. My training philosophies are different than yours, it focuses on the relationship first, not just going in and getting things done at whatever cost...so give it a rest.


Spirithorse relationships do not have to be built on having a horse run all over you. They can be built on a strong leader, a confident leader, a leader that puts up with no crap. I perposely choose 3 or 4 year old young unhandled studs for my horses because shown a little leadership, forced to submit to my ways they form a bond like a dog that trots at your heals. The mere site of me gets my guys running to the fence calling. Again like a lost dog at the site of his master he comes running.
I honestly feel pressured to go and get him because he will stand as close as he can get until I go for him and he will meet me at the gate.
He will not run over me, he will have impecable manners.
NO we do not know you , you don't know me but from our posts we learn about each other, strengths, weaknesses and this post to ME shows a strong weakness.
NO vet should have his well being threatened by making a call. 
I lost only 2 horses in my life, one ECHO and one SHADOW. My daughter told me to name my next horse something real, something concrete, Echo and Shadow do not exist, they are not real so never again will I name something I want to keep other then a good concrete name.

You posted to show your foundation and I found it lacking.
Sorry.
Rio's Dad


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Nearly 2 pages of worthless "debate" and name calling. Enough. Nothing more can be learned from this and that is a shame.

As for what foundation Spirithorse is giving her horse, building a strong foundation takes time, it isn't overnight and some horses take longer then others. Rushing any training only leads to greater problems and holes. Spirithorse did not say she had a finished horse only a foundation that was tested before it was strong enough for a stranger. 

Rio, some of your statements are sound but many are rude and unnecessary. They go way out of the way to be hurtful, not constructive. Please keep that in mind. Suggesting that if her horse was yours, you would put him down is about as inflammatory a statement as can be. Keep in mind that it isn't always what you say but how it is heard.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

When they put him down for a shattered leg they needed a port in his neck so they inserted one and sewed it in so they could inject him easier and faster. Again he just stood rock still on his 3 legs and accepted.
Lost a great boy that day.. AGain was he less because he didn't make a fuss, was his foundation weak? or was it alot stronger then yours.
quote]

Your horse was in shock and pain of coaurse he stood rock still his mind was on something else. That is common in those situations even with horses that would normally be hard to handle.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I agree with Riosdad. If your horse had the foundation that you think he does he would have stood for the vet the first time. If you are the only person that can handle your horse without being in danger then I would say that your foundation has been put to the test and found lacking.


Some horses for what ever reason have different personalities (just like people) and past experiences are not as accepting to things. If your kid goes and gets his 1st haircut and is screaming it must be a bad foundation the parents put on him? Or maybe he is just scared of some scissors coming at him? I had probably one of the most well trained well mannered horse who for what ever reason was deathly afraid of shots. He got better over time and with PROPER slow handling during shots but it wasn't overnight and the appraoch of the vet made a big difference.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

iridehorses said:


> Nearly 2 pages of worthless "debate" and name calling. Enough. Nothing more can be learned from this and that is a shame.
> 
> .


Worthless "debate"" She says her foundation is strong and yet a vet nearly got hurt trying to give him a needle.
I say the foundation is lacking.
Is this worthless debate?? 
Should I just agree and say what a great job you are doing and the worthless vet should know better then to just walk up to a horse and give it a shot??

Was I not debating the issue???
Is a post on any of these forums not open for debate???

She calls me an *** and you are ok with that but I can't say I would put her horse down if I couldn't break it any better then she is doing???


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I was on the topic. Attack her?? I was posting on what I thought of her foundation. Was that not the topic?? Am I only to agree or have I the right to disagree??
> The vet comes and he has to jump through hoops to get near the horse, to work on the horse and we all applaud her and boo the vet???
> 
> 
> ...


Sound like submission.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

churumbeque said:


> Your horse was in shock and pain of coaurse he stood rock still his mind was on something else. That is common in those situations even with horses that would normally be hard to handle.


He wasn't in shock. He stood for hours while they developed the X rays. He stood perfectly while the took all the X rays. We put him in his stall and he stood eating hay and I grained him. He eat fine. He hobbled on 3 legs out of the field to the barn, he hobbled out to the lawn where he was put down, Not one single time did he act up, resist or in anyway show he was in pain.
He is/was rock solid through everything you could throw at him at any time and he didn't come that way when I bought him.
He is a MADE horse


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

churumbeque said:


> Sound like submission.


Call it what you want, submission, obedience but his and my life are on the line and the only thing I care about is if he holds or not.

Run busy highways, garbage in the ditch, little shoulder, guard rails and then have a big transport truck berrying down and you and see if calling it submission or obedience makes no difference??
Both of you are dead if he doesn't hold.
That was just a pleasant ride yesterday morning. I do them all the time.

Funny how you try and attach a dirty name to a good horse?


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

*sighs* A moderator comes in and tells you to stop, but you can't listen to authority can you?

Arie is a VERY challenging horse, he came with a ton of baggage, 6 years worth, topped with very bad opinions of people. The fact that *I* can give him a shot says a lot about my foundation  He trusts and respects me. He does not trust or respect the vet. Why? Because the vet didn't listen to me. You are forgetting that in my original post I said that the vet *did* get the shot in *after* he took my advice, and Arie *stood still*. All of that chaos could have been prevented if he had simply listened to me. End of story.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> *sighs* A moderator comes in and tells you to stop, but you can't listen to authority can you?
> 
> .


Stop what?? The debate over whether your foundation is strong or not??
Unless the forum has change, the moderator is God then debate is what this forum is about.

If my freedom to express my opinion is not allowed then they should just ban me and be done with me and my kind.
If not I will continue to call it as I see it.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> For the needle prep I first started with being able to pound on his neck. I know some vets do that so I figured I might as well have him used to it. .


I have needled alot of bad horses and I don't agree with pounding on the neck. It is setting them up for the needle. I just walk up to the horse , pet him and quick as a rattler I stick the needle in the neck. The horse might shake his head but that is it. It is over. I then attach the syringe and inject.
Bumping the horse is a signal the needle is coming and makes the horse antsy??
Yes some vets do the pound method but I just tell them to skip it on some horses and just stick it in.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

You know, its really mind boggling the amount of horses out there that aren't accomplished with basic skills. The first part of our training program covers just that. In my line of work, I train the untrainable regularly. Am I special, no, I don't think so. I know there are plenty of people out there that can do what I do, but there are a lot of people who can't. When I was a teenager, I already had a lot of success with horses that other people had passed off as worthless. I could do things with these horses that other people didn't think were possible. Of course, at first, I felt pretty special about it, but that didn't last. As a child, all I wanted was a horse of my own, now, I'm turning down horses left and right. You see, I had to come to the realization that it didn't matter what I could do with that horse, it comes down to whether or not I can teach that horse to the point that it owns that skill and anyone can do it anytime. That is what I call a solid foundation. When a horse that I'm working with fails that test and puts a person in danger, that is my fault for failing to prepare them, not the professional that is there to help. 

Spirithorse, congratulations for getting your horse as far as you have, but you come on here expecting warm fuzzies from everyone and then get quite upset when someone throws you a stone. I promise you that there are plenty of people who are capable of training your horse. Is it an accomplishment to do so? Yes, of course, and you should be proud of yourself, but I can guarantee you that what you have gone through with him is not something that has never been done before. Please don't say that I don't know him and I can't judge him, as I'm not trying to attack him or you in any way. I do believe that this is an area that is actually proving weak for him, not strong. He is oversensitive to other people to the point where you are the one tiptoeing around him (as you expect the vet to do), which is something that I've seen you criticize others for. I am not at my horses side 24/7. If something were to happen when I wasn't there to give step by step instructions to my vet, my horse would have to handle it on his own. I can't rely on the chance that the vet my have the time for his world to revolve around my horse's behavioral issues. Those skills would have to be that solid. I am the trainer, he is the vet.

Rio, you do tend to be a little harsh, but that is in your nature. You have some sound advice to offer, but more people would listen if you work on delivery. Its obvious that you have a lot of experience and a lot to offer. But just out of curiosity, did it occur to you that the pounding on the neck is a test in your own horses adaptability? That can be used for or against you. If its a pretense to a shot, then why not change it up? Seperate the tasks. Pounding doesn't have to be associated with a shot, you could tap their neck a few times and go on about your business, then when it does come time for a shot and someone does it, it doesn't really mean anything to the horse to have a few taps on the neck first. Its about preparing the horse for any situation, whether you are there to tell the vet how to do his job or not.

I can't control the world, but I can help prepare the horse for what the world has to offer. Every horse deserves that chance, the only horse that I will put down is the one that is physically in pain to the point where its quality of life is poor. Any other horse has an equal chance, no matter how old, young, mare, gelding, stallion, whatever happens to come my way. The biggest step that I've found is being able to accept the fact that there is more out there than what I know and I need to be open to it. Each horse has something new to teach and I know that I will constantly be running into "if only I knew then what I know now". I will never accept the answer that I am as good as I will ever need to be.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

^^Very good post!!


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

FlitterBug said:


> , did it occur to you that the pounding on the neck is a test in your own horses adaptability? That can be used for or against you. If its a pretense to a shot, then why not change it up? .


My personal guy doesn't care about needles and the vet is free to just walk up to him and give him a shot but I run the herd program and had 25 horses at one barn and 45 at another and you run into all kinds.
I also gave shots if the horse was ill at 6 in the morning so I had to deal with boarders horses and some hated the shot.
I found that a friendly high , walk up, and strike quickly in the neck got my best results for some horse, again not mine, other boarders.

My horses weakness right now is side passing over everything I can find that he fits over. Some of the things he says NO to and I have to work to get him over them. Given time he will side pass over everything imaginable. If he fits he will side pass over it.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Who said I tiptoe? Me taking my time is not a matter of tiptoeing, it's a matter of RESPECTING his opinion and not sticking him until he is ready. Why would I stick him if he is tense? That would hurt a lot worse. I never said he was 'perfect' at getting needles, and really I'm not putting a time table on it. It's a work in progress and as long as I'm doing right by him and he keeps improving, which he is, then I'm happy. 

This thread was NOT intended to be a debate thread, so it's pretty rude that people turn it into a debate thread. If I wanted opinions, I would have asked for them. Simple as that. I feel good about what I've done with my horse, and I feel good about what I will do with my horse, so I don't need others telling me I'm wrong or that my horse would be put down if he were theirs. 

And really, especially RD, why do you think I care what you have to say? Why do you assume I want your opinion, or will listen to it? You are sadly mistaken if you think I'm ever going to listen to anything you have to say  So all your arrogant remarks are falling on deaf ears, you're just wasting your time.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Spirithorse said:


> This thread was NOT intended to be a debate thread, so it's pretty rude that people turn it into a debate thread.
> 
> And really, especially RD, why do you think I care what you have to say?


Any thread is a debate thread - that is the nature of a forum. If you didn't want feedback or debate then you need to write a blog, not post on a forum.

As for RD, his delivery and his personality (at least as anyone can tell on a forum) is rough and abrasive but a lot of what he has to say is sound. Take from it, or anyone else's what you want but you shouldn't come to a forum expecting roses and rainbows.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

RiosDad -- Look a little deeper, what the thread was referring to is preparing a horse for the vet, whatever techniques that vet may have or a caretaker that is available at the time. We can't assume that everyone will have the feel and experience with horses that you or another professional may have. Honestly, the majority of people that I encounter in the horse world lack that ability. The reason that you can is why people trust their horse to you, but we are looking at it from the other side, not looking at what you can do to deal with a sketchy horse, but instead what someone can do to prepare their horse for a less experienced person. Sure, in an ideal world, only the most experienced person would come in contact with an individuals horse, unfortunately, that can't always happen and often times even "professionals" have a main field of teaching people to sit pretty, not read horse behavior. It sounds like your horse is turning into a very well rounded guy.

Spirithorse-- I'm sorry. I apologize that I made you feel threatened to the point that you had to defend yourself and the techniques that you use so strongly. The conclusion that I came to wasn't quoting anyone, it is what I saw just by reading your posts, and I stand by that opinion. You are the very proud of the bond that you have with your horse, as you have a right to be. When you have two halves that can't function without each other, then neither will get very far. I know that it is not my place to say, but I will anyway..... It is your job to not only build up your horses confidence in you, but also in himself. I am not saying that you are doing a bad job at all, I am a firm believer in preparing a horse for needles. I have also found that once a good foundation is made, needles actually come easily, regardless of the horses past. As long as you are so defensive, you will never be able to reep the benefits of what others have to share with you. I have learned the most from my harshest critics, and I only look forward to someone questioning my techniques as it gives the opportunity to show them and I have often found that they were right to criticize, and it only makes me and my horses stronger in the long run.


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## Juniper (May 4, 2007)

Spirithorse, Sounds like you are doing a great job. Any horse person knows training takes time and is built in layers. Also, I don't quite believe some people who claim to have perfect horses that never have issues or misbehave. I have been around enough excellent trainers now to know that is not so. Experienced trainers will be the first to tell you some horses have problems in one area more than another horse. 
Yes, every post is up for debate, but what is the point in being so nasty? Ruins the post for most of us I think.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Thank you Juniper 

FlitterBug, it may seem that I am defensive, but I really am not  I have no reason to be defensive as I am happy with where I am at with my horse....satisfied, no. He is a work in progress, as I have stated. I am confident in my abilities and in the training program I use and I don't have to prove myself to anyone but my horse. I am well aware that I have to build his confidence in himself, that is one area a horse must be confident in to be 'balanced.' His self confidence has improved ten fold from when I first got him. In fact he is VERY self confident now, however he is not confident in strangers. I have always, since I got him, had friends of mine come over to see him and interract with him in some way to show him that people aren't really bad...he would try to bite ANYONE who came near him when I first got him, and now, just like a few days ago with a friend of mine he's never met before, the thought of biting never crosses his mind. He was so good and lovey with my friend the other day, the polar opposite of what he was before. The difference in his reaction with my friend and his reaction with the vet was simple: my friend approached him with respect but also confidence, while the vet approached him in a more predatory "I'm doing this to you and that's that" mentality...no respect for his opinion at all. That doesn't sit well with Arie, and honestly I don't blame him one bit. He's allowed to tell the vet he's being rude. I won't have practitioners who have poor stall-side behavior.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

iridehorses said:


> As for RD, his delivery and his personality (at least as anyone can tell on a forum) is rough and abrasive .


Yes and I am feeling mean right now so I am going to make some of you CRY


The Old Man and the Dog



by Catherine Moore

"Watch out! You nearly broad sided that car!" My father yelled at me. "Can't you
do anything right?"
Those words hurt worse than blows. I turned my head toward the elderly man in
the seat beside me, daring me to challenge him. A lump rose in my throat as I
averted my eyes. I wasn't prepared for another battle. "I saw the car, Dad.
Please don't yell at me when I'm driving." My voice was measured and steady,
sounding far calmer than I really felt.Dad glared at me, then turned away and
settled back. At home I left Dad in front of the television and went outside to
collect my thoughts. Dark, heavy clouds hung in the air with a promise of rain.
The rumble of distant thunder seemed to echo my inner turmoil. What could I do
about him?Dad had been a lumberjack in Washington and Oregon. He had enjoyed
being outdoors and had reveled in pitting his strength against the forces of
nature. He had entered grueling lumberjack competitions, and had placed often.
The shelves in his house were filled with trophies that attested to his
prowess. The years marched on relentlessly. The first time he couldn't lift a
heavy log, he joked about it; but later that same day I saw him outside alone,
straining to lift it. He became irritable whenever anyone teased him about his
advancing age, or when he couldn't do something he had done as a younger man.
Four days after his sixty-seventh birthday, he had a heart attack. An ambulance
sped him to the hospital while a paramedic administered CPR to keep blood and
oxygen flowing. At the hospital, Dad was rushed into an operating room. He was
lucky; he survived. But something inside Dad died. His zest for life was gone.
He obstinately refused to follow doctor's orders. Suggestions and offers of
help were turned aside with sarcasm and insults. The number of visitors
thinned, then finally stopped altogether. Dad was left alone. My husband, ****,
and I asked Dad to come live with us on our small farm. We hoped the fresh air
and rustic atmosphere would help him adjust. Within a week after he moved in, I
regretted the invitation. It seemed nothing was satisfactory. He criticized
everything I did. I became frustrated and moody. Soon I was taking my pent-up
anger out on ****. We began to bicker and argue. Alarmed, **** sought out our
pastor and explained the situation. The clergyman set up weekly counseling
appointments for us. At the close of each session he prayed, asking God to
soothe Dad's troubled mind. But the months wore on and God was silent.
Something had to be done and it was up to me to do it. The next day I sat down
with the phone book and methodically called each of the mental health clinics
listed in the Yellow Pages. I explained my problem to each of the sympathetic
voices that answered. In vain. Just when I was giving up hope, one of the
voices suddenly exclaimed, "I just read something that might help you! Let me
go get the article." I listened as she read. The article described a remarkable
study done at a nursing home. All of the patients were under treatment for
chronic depression. Yet their attitudes had improved dramatically when they
were given responsibility for a dog. I drove to the animal shelter that
afternoon. After I filled out a questionnaire, a uniformed officer led me to
the kennels. The odor of disinfectant stung my nostrils as I moved down the row
of pens. Each contained five to seven dogs. Long-haired dogs, curly-haired dogs,
black dogs, spotted dogsâ?"all jumped up, trying to reach me. I studied each one
but rejected one after the other for various reasonsâ?"too big, too small, too
much hair. As I neared the last pen a dog in the shadows of the far corner
struggled to his feet, walked to the front of the run and sat down. It was a
pointer, one of the dog world's aristocrats. But this was a caricature of the
breed. Years had etched his face and muzzle with shades of gray. His hipbones
jutted out in lopsided triangles. But it was his eyes that caught and held my
attention. Calm and clear, they beheld me unwaveringly. I pointed to the dog.
"Can you tell me about him?" The officer looked, then shook his head in
puzzlement."He's a funny one. Appeared out of nowhere and sat in front of the
gate. We brought him in, figuring someone would be right down to claim him.
That was two weeks ago and we've heard nothing. His time is up tomorrow." He
gestured helplessly. As the words sank in I turned to the man in horror. "You
mean you're going to kill him?""Ma'am," he said gently, "that's our policy. We
don't have room for every unclaimed dog." I looked at the pointer again. The
calm brown eyes awaited my decision. "I'll take him," I said.I drove home with
the dog on the front seat beside me. When I reached the house I honked the horn
twice. I was helping my prize out of the car when Dad shuffled onto the front
porch. "Ta-da! Look what I got for you, Dad!" I said excitedly.Dad looked, then
wrinkled his face in disgust. "If I had wanted a dog I would have gotten one.
And I would have picked out a better specimen than that bag of bones. Keep it!
I don't want it" Dad waved his arm scornfully and turned back toward the house.
Anger rose inside me. It squeezed together my throat muscles and pounded into my
temples."You'd better get used to him, Dad. He's staying!" Dad ignored me. 
"Did you hear me, Dad?" I screamed. At those words Dad whirled angrily, his
hands clenched at his sides, his eyes narrowed and blazing with hate. We stood
glaring at each other like duelists, when suddenly the pointer pulled free from
my grasp. He wobbled toward my dad and sat down in front of him. Then slowly,
carefully, he raised his paw.Dad's lower jaw trembled as he stared at the
uplifted paw. Confusion replaced the anger in his eyes. The pointer waited
patiently. Then Dad was on his knees hugging the animal. It was the beginning
of a warm and intimate friendship. Dad named the pointer Cheyenne. Together he
and Cheyenne explored the community. They spent long hours walking down dusty
lanes. They spent reflective moments on the banks of streams, angling for tasty
trout. They even started to attend Sunday services together, Dad sitting in a
pew and Cheyenne lying quietly at his feet.Dad and Cheyenne were inseparable
throughout the next three years. Dad's bitterness faded, and he and Cheyenne
made many friends. Then late one night I was startled to feel Cheyenne's cold
nose burrowing through our bed covers. He had never before come into our
bedroom at night. I woke ****, put on my robe and ran into my father's room.
Dad lay in his bed, his face serene. But his spirit had left quietly sometime
during the night. Two days later my shock and grief deepened when I discovered
Cheyenne lying dead beside Dad's bed. I wrapped his still form in the rag rug
he had slept on. As **** and I buried him near a favorite fishing hole, I
silently thanked the dog for the help he had given me in restoring Dad's peace
of mind. The morning of Dad's funeral dawned overcast and dreary. This day
looks like the way I feel, I thought, as I walked down the aisle to the pews
reserved for family. I was surprised to see the many friends Dad and Cheyenne
had made filling the church. The pastor began his eulogy. It was a tribute to
both Dad and the dog who had changed his life. And then the pastor turned to
Hebrews 13:2. "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers."
"I've often thanked God for sending that angel," he said.For me, the past
dropped into place, completing a puzzle that I had not seen before: the
sympathetic voice that had just read the right article... Cheyenne's unexpected
appearance at the animal shelter. . .his calm acceptance and complete devotion
to my father. . and the proximity of their deaths. And suddenly I understood. I
knew that God had answered my prayers after all.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

FlitterBug said:


> Spirithorse, congratulations for getting your horse as far as you have, but you come on here expecting warm fuzzies from everyone and then get quite upset when someone throws you a stone. I promise you that there are plenty of people who are capable of training your horse. Is it an accomplishment to do so? Yes, of course, and you should be proud of yourself, but I can guarantee you that what you have gone through with him is not something that has never been done before. Please don't say that I don't know him and I can't judge him, as I'm not trying to attack him or you in any way. I do believe that this is an area that is actually proving weak for him, not strong. *He is oversensitive to other people to the point where you are the one tiptoeing around him (as you expect the vet to do), which is something that I've seen you criticize others for.* I am not at my horses side 24/7. If something were to happen when I wasn't there to give step by step instructions to my vet, my horse would have to handle it on his own. I can't rely on the chance that the vet my have the time for his world to revolve around my horse's behavioral issues. Those skills would have to be that solid. I am the trainer, he is the vet.


Very good points!


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Rio, so what you are saying is that you want a dog?


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

iridehorses said:


> Rio, so what you are saying is that you want a dog?


I've been a dog person for 30 plus years and when the last one died I decided to never put myself through that again. Their lives are too short and it hurts too much to loose them. I get over deaths slowly.

No I do not want another dog.

I could hardly read that and quite before the end.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Im 100% with RD here

.... Chance was abused horribly from the day she was born, to the day I bought her, even a few weeks after without my knowledge. It was to the point that she was willing to hurt or kill any human that came 10 ft from her. So thats a good 31/2 to 4 years of abuse shes 6 now and I've had her for 2 years.. Yes trust takes time but Chance will stand still for just about anything with out any sedatives. Needles, Teeth, ferrier, or any type of wound that needs tending to. Because I made SURE that anyone, including me, who worked with her wasn't going to have a problem and end up doing more damage to her mentally.. which Im guessing that happened to Arie he took it more personally because he wasn't prepared "correctly". Anyone who's ever worked with Chance has been very impressed with the foundation she has. Even her little quirks like lipping them or poking at them they let slide half the time because shes doing everything else they ask. 

I understand Arie is a challenging horse, but thats no excuse.. hes a danger to everyone but you unless they do things YOUR way .. i wouldnt be taking pride in that. I take pride that I can trust my horse in others peoples hands. If theres any problem I make sure I take the time the next time Im up to fix it.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

> I understand Arie is a challenging horse, but thats no excuse.. hes a danger to everyone but you unless they do things YOUR way .. i wouldnt be taking pride in that. I take pride that I can trust my horse in others peoples hands. If theres any problem I make sure I take the time the next time Im up to fix it.


Are you reading the same thread I am? She is trying, over time to get him used to other people. She even stated he's getting better. You cant force a horse to be _prepared correctly... i_t can sometimes take a lifetime. 

I personally would have told the vet to get lost if he wasnt going to listen to me. It seemed like he made the situation more dangerous, and got on the wrong foot with your horse.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

HorsesAreForever said:


> I understand Arie is a challenging horse, but thats no excuse.. hes a danger to everyone but you unless they do things YOUR way .. i wouldnt be taking pride in that. I take pride that I can trust my horse in others peoples hands. If theres any problem I make sure I take the time the next time Im up to fix it.


LOL are you serious right now? No, you don't understand how challenging Arie is. I'm not using that as an excuse, it's just the truth. My way is the Parelli way and it's the RIGHT way for both of us, and as his owner I will make sure only savvy people handle him, or people who will listen to me and take care in handling him. And he isn't a danger to EVERYONE, only inconsiderate idiots My friend, whom I'm staying with, was able to walk into his stall while he was laying down and he was totally fine with that, and he even let her pet him. Yea, he's a real danger:wink: If you have SAVVY around him you will be just fine. And you take time to fix issues with Chance? Really? Arie bucked with me once....and hasn't since....is it that way with Chance? Perhaps you should take your attitude elsewhere, you really don't want to start with me.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

sillybunny11486 said:


> Are you reading the same thread I am? She is trying, over time to get him used to other people. She even stated he's getting better. You cant force a horse to be _prepared correctly... i_t can sometimes take a lifetime.
> 
> I personally would have told the vet to get lost if he wasnt going to listen to me. It seemed like he made the situation more dangerous, and got on the wrong foot with your horse.


Exactly! Thank you sillybunny. Arie isn't a hum-dee-dum-I'm-okay-with-everything horse. I think he would have been if he hadn't had the terrible experiences he was forced to endure. He is completely different from when I first got him, but as I have stated, I'm happy with where he is, but I'm not satisfied...hence why we continue our work.


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> It was to the point that she was willing to hurt or kill any human that came 10 ft from her.


But yet you are still alive and in one piece :wink:



> Needles, Teeth, ferrier, or any type of wound that needs tending to


Any type of wound? I highly doubt everything that I can think of that can happen to a horse has been experienced by Chance :wink::wink:



> Because I made SURE that anyone, including me, who worked with her wasn't going to have a problem and end up doing more damage to her mentally.. which Im guessing that happened to Arie he took it more personally because he wasn't prepared "correctly". Anyone who's ever worked with Chance has been very impressed with the foundation she has. Even her little quirks like lipping them or poking at them they let slide half the time because shes doing everything else they ask.


Wasn't prepared "correctly". I'm sorry do you know Aries or SpiritHorse personally? I find it hard to believe that you know so much about her horse when I don't believe even any videos have been published on here of them.
You don't know anything on what Aries has gotten into so don't assume that Chance had it harder or that Aries is less sensitive than Chance. 



> I understand Arie is a challenging horse, but thats no excuse.. hes a danger to everyone but you unless they do things YOUR way .. i wouldnt be taking pride in that. I take pride that I can trust my horse in others peoples hands. If theres any problem I make sure I take the time the next time Im up to fix it.


I'm sorry but when did I hear SpiritHorse giving an excuse? Different horse's take longer to "rehabilitate" (if you want to use that word). Don't assume that she is not doing it the right way. I would be honored if SpiritHorse helped with my horses if I had problems. She seems to have a good head on her shoulders and puts the horse first.


Spirithorse, I think you know the word that is describing HAF right now :wink:. You have done an amazing job with Aries!


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Thank you SavvyHearts  It is funny how one can think they know my horse better than I do.


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## Romantic Lyric (Dec 31, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> In fact he is VERY self confident now, however he is not confident in strangers.



If you're self-confident, then you should be able to deal with "strangers" with confidence. He can't have one but not the other.




Spirithorse said:


> The difference in his reaction with my friend and his reaction with the vet was simple: my friend approached him with respect but also confidence, while the vet approached him in a more predatory "I'm doing this to you and that's that" mentality...no respect for his opinion at all. That doesn't sit well with Arie, and honestly I don't blame him one bit. He's allowed to tell the vet he's being rude. I won't have practitioners who have poor stall-side behavior.



Well, you may go through quite a few vets then! I don't blame your vet *one bit* for expecting to be able to walk up to a horse and give him a shot without complaint. What you're teaching your horse is that his opinion matters more than yours, or any human for that matter. He runs the show, and I'm sure he knows it.

While I understand your horse may have some baggage, that does not give him a free pass to have special treatment for the rest of his life. As many posters have said before me, a horse with a truly good foundation, should be able to be handled by anyone who isn't a _complete_ idiot and keep their manners about them. I rest easy knowing that my horse can be handled by a six-year-old child and not take advantage of them.

What bothers me isn't that he doesn't have that skill yet, that takes some time, but that you don't seem to think that he *ever* _needs_ to be safe to handle by "strangers." Your attitude seems to be: _"If you don't approach my horse with respect and "respect his opinion," well, that's your problem if you get body slammed into a wall." _Maybe you're one of those people who secretly gets off when their horse misbehaves for another person because you have a special "bond" with your horse, and he *only* likes you? I don't know. 

I don't agree with you, you probably won't agree with me, and I know I'm not likely to convert you to my way of thinking, but I still like to try.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

RomanticLyric said:


> If you're self-confident, then you should be able to deal with "strangers" with confidence. He can't have one but not the other.
> 
> *Having self confidence and having confidence in people are two completely different matters. People have never been a positive thing in his life until I got him....he went through 6 years of people being a negative thing. So he doesn't trust people's intentions easily, and I can't say I blame him.*
> 
> ...


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

All im gonna say is leave my horse out of this! If I said what I was thinking, im sure id get banned.

Savvyheart back off because you dont know me nor my horse. 

Its amazing how much people turn.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

sillybunny11486 said:


> Are you reading the same thread I am? She is trying, over time to get him used to other people. She even stated he's getting better. You cant force a horse to be _prepared correctly... i_t can sometimes take a lifetime.
> 
> I personally would have told the vet to get lost if he wasnt going to listen to me. It seemed like he made the situation more dangerous, and got on the wrong foot with your horse.


I don't think it is about her trying as much as it is about her ATTITUDE.
To ME she comes across as not having a clue, as a total amature on handling a horse and she will not take advice from far more knowledgable people.
I beleive that she will never make a good solid horse, a gentlemans horse as I refer to them.

As for the vet?? I wouldn't have anything to do with her or her horse.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> take your attitude elsewhere, you really don't want to start with me.


What are you going to do Spirithorse??? Don't start with you???
Your a joke to horse training.


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> All im gonna say is leave my horse out of this! If I said what I was thinking, im sure id get banned.
> 
> Savvyheart back off because you dont know me nor my horse.
> 
> Its amazing how much people turn.


It's amazing how people will start bashing on a thread about an injury her horse got. I really don't think it happens to matter whether or not everyone feels Aries has a good foundation at all. This thread was not about foundations it was about the injury. So how about we stay on topic


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

SavvyHearts said:


> This thread was not about foundations it was about the injury. So how about we stay on topic


I appologize. I thought it was about MY FOUNDATION IS BEING PUT TO THE TEST?????????
We had a horse in the barn with a broken coffin bone. Is that what this post is all about, a broken coffin bone??? Why doesn't the title say that???


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I don't think it is about her trying as much as it is about her ATTITUDE.
> To ME she comes across as not having a clue, as a total amature on handling a horse and she will not take advice from far more knowledgable people.
> I beleive that she will never make a good solid horse, a gentlemans horse as I refer to them.
> 
> As for the vet?? I wouldn't have anything to do with her or her horse.


I agree with sillybunny, if my vet approached my horses in a threatening way, especially my mare, something could happen. My mare is a BLM 'stang and can still be iffy with strangers. I have told two vets to get lost because they did not listen or even want to listen. My mare is fine with shots, but she HAS to look at them first, she wants to know what is going on at all times, and if she doesn't know, then she fights and panics.

I would hope SpiritHorse would never make a good solid horse, as she's a person :lol::lol: but I have no doubt that Aries can be. Any horse can be with the right handling. 

I personally wouldn't not take advise from "far more knowledgeable people" when those people have proven to me that the opinion of a horse doesn't matter, it's all about getting the job done and making them listen. I'm sorry but that is not a way I'd ever follow.


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I appologize. I thought it was about MY FOUNDATION IS BEING PUT TO THE TEST?????????
> We had a horse in the barn with a broken coffin bone. Is that what this post is all about, a broken coffin bone??? Why doesn't the title say that???


I fail to read anywhere where it says "what do you think of the foundation"? "Am i doing this right"? She was not asking for advise or help.


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## vivache (Jun 14, 2009)

Honestly, if she doesn't want varying comments or opinions on it, she should start a blog if she just wants 'how wunderful! u r awsum!!'


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

SavvyHearts said:


> I fail to read anywhere where it says "what do you think of the foundation"? "Am i doing this right"? She was not asking for advise or help.


If you start any post you are going to get readers opinions.
Start a post with MY FOUNDATION IS BEING PUT TO THE TEST and you are going to get people commenting on the foundation.
I am sure everyone is fine with any post praising her but if someone doesn't agree then they are up in arms.
Spirithorse threatens other posters, she calls them names while we can not disagree with her handling of the horses.. Interesting how people feel entitled to their opinion and no one can challenge that???


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

SavvyHearts said:


> I agree with sillybunny, if my vet approached my horses in a threatening way, especially my mare, something could happen. .


Most vets are animal lovers, they didn't get into that field just for the money, they usually love animals and want to make a living working with them.
How does a vet approach a horse threateningly?? Do they puff themselves up and charge at the horse?? Do they wave their arms in the air to frighten the horse??
Should they bow to the horse and offer a greeting?? Should they stand back and get the horse use to their presence??

My vets, our herd vets just walk into the barn, the horse is in cross ties and he puts his bag on the bench and talks to us about what is the problem. Then he just walks up to the horse and does what is necessary.
And if it involves bright light, plates between his legs or standing on one it makes no difference. The horse just accepts because that is the way of things. If it involves tubing so be it. The bottom line is THE HORSE JUST ACCEPTS

Someone should start a post on how a GOOD vet should approach a horse?? Great topic


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

This thread has become to argumentative with too many personal attacks. It is being closed


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