# Riding Crops for Beginners



## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

If you are using it responsibly, do not feel bad. Horses like clear rules, and backing up an ignored leg cue maintains those clear boundaries.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

I feel you about the feeling guilty. If you wear sturdy boots, you can give your boot a good whack and see if that sound already does the trick. Usually, after a while though, your carrying the whip will be enough - the horse doesn't want to go there either, so if it knows how to avoid it, it will.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

You are being taught to use it correctly. 

One of my favorite coaches, Jack LeGoff, once told me....."A good rider always carries a whip and never uses it". The horse learns to respect your leg, if they know you will enforce it. They learn what will happen if he ignores the leg.

Keep going...using it *fairly* so that the horse respects you. Then, you will become that rider who never has to use it.


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## Phantomrose (Jul 25, 2016)

Like with any equipment as it comes to horse riding, it is how you use the tool, not the tool itself most of the time. Crops aren't bad, when used responsibly and correctly. The rule that my trainer always taught me when riding is ask, tell, then demand. So squeeze with leg aids first, if that doesn't work, give a more firm aid with the legs. If that still doesn't work, a tap with a crop, followed by a squeeze of the leg aids should do it to reinforce the legs aids. Sometimes lesson horses become dead to the aids all together because of so many people riding them. Some do need that ask, tell, demand step. Others will go with just a simple ask.


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## Sandycat (Apr 7, 2017)

The instructor told me that the horse would much rather have one tap with the whip than keep getting kicked over and over. It makes sense. She also said it is never to be used as a punishment. 



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## Phantomrose (Jul 25, 2016)

Sandycat said:


> The instructor told me that the horse would much rather have one tap with the whip than keep getting kicked over and over. It makes sense. She also said it is never to be used as a punishment.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


That is correct in the fact that a horse would rather have one tap, then to have to deal with constant kicking, or as my trainer likes to call it- nagging over and over again. They get annoyed when you constantly nag them, and eventually learn to ignore that aid.


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## pennywise (Feb 1, 2016)

I choose not to use a crop unless for show...I never hit the horse with the crop and if I have to make contact, its only a tap, like... no force. The best riding with a crop for me is when I only have to show it to the horse in it's peripheral the same way I would never use a lunging whip actually on the horse, I raise it to them or onto the ground. At most, maybe, I'll wack the saddle or my boot. Horses have a lot of nerves at the surface of their skin and I don't actually like the idea of causing them pain. Just because they're a larger animal doesn't mean they've automatically got thick skin. Asking for something during a ride should never have to include pain, it's about inconvenience vs comfort. I've ridden horses and even had a recent experience with a horse that was completely desensitized against light riding with both the crop and spurs, but it doesn't mean he's not experiencing pain, it just means he'd learned how to handle it...and that means harder hitting or kicking to the wrong kind of rider, the further you get in the harder it is to get out. Spurs and whips can be used without pain but you've got to be mindful, not get ****ed off and use it against them just because you can. Your friend is right to be mad at _that_ kind of riding, but you're not causing him any pain by how you've been using the crop.

I think that using a crop because of leg problems may not be the best because you're going to lean on that crop unless you're paying /close/ attention. The horse will react immediately to the crop, so your brain might shortcut to that instead of the leg to ask for something effectively. The order of asking is really important and takes a bit of practice on it's own before it becomes part of your subconscious response to a moment when you ask and nothing happens. If I were you I might ditch the crop to focus on the problem at hand and not add another variable to think about. Unless your leg pressure isn't something you can work on, taking a crop to fix the problem isn't fixing the problem.... if you _can_ somehow work on that leg pressure, adding a crop into the picture kinda complicates it, still. If your trainer is confident that this is the correct approach I'm sure she's going to be helping you work on everything, though, so I mean, makes sense. She probably knows what she's doing more than I.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Sandycat said:


> To make it worse, I was talking to a friend about the lesson and she was horrified that I used a whip. She used to ride Western and never used a whip, and thinks they are terribly cruel.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Don't feel guilty about using a crop...
> ...


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Many lesson horses will ignore cues for a variety of reasons. The whip tells them there is no ignoring this. Sometimes they just have to see it, other times it has to be employed. As to strengthening your legs best is to ride, ride and ride some more. Next up is to get some resistance equipment - bands and balls and find a book or instructor/trainer that can show you how to use them. The big exercise balls are good for hip work. When I was riding and competing I don't think I ever missed a set of steps that I didn't do calf raises on. Still do them at times.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Everyone who is learning to ride has poor leg control to start with. Your muscles haven't been developed to the point that a good solid kick is as effective from you as it is from your instructor. For that matter, neither is a squeeze. Your instructor applies her legs, correctly, in the correct spot to give the cue for the horse to do something. The horse knows the cues, and he knows what will happen with her if he ignores the cues. So she carries a crop and rarely ever has to resort to it. Same thing with spurs, I ride with them and can't remember the last time I really had to apply more than a touch to cue the horse. On the ground I also carry my 'carrot stick' lunge whip and I can't remember the last time I had to 'reach out and touch' someone with it. They KNOW without doubt that if they're disrespectful and don't move out of my way or when I ask, they will get 'touched'. Don't feel guilty about it, the horse is checking to see if you WILL follow up when your legs are ignored. You don't have to hit hard, at least the first time, it's more about the tap and the noise the crop makes to say, "Yes, I meant what I said. Now DO it.". If he ignores that one and you have to up the energy behind that tap, then it's time to make him feel it. 9 times out of 10, the tap will do all you need to have done. And then, pretty soon, you won't need to do anything but stick the crop in your back pocket before you get on and he'll shape up and be a model citizen. In the meantime, you're developing your leg strength and accuracy every time you ride.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

I have a TB and he used to be incredibly lazy even though he was OTT he just had no forward in him whatsoever and I could kick him hard, flap around and make loads of noise and he still wouldn't go forward. I started riding with a dressage whip and once he realized I would go further if he didn't listen to my leg he didn't need the whip anymore. I still carry it occasionally.

Another example was when I first started hacking him out he would go out the paddock and just stop. Wouldn't go any further no matter what I did. Once I got the crop out I never had another problem because he knew I would make good on my cue. 

Treat the horse fairly, learn to use it with a healthy amount of respect and logic. Eventually the horse will realize when you have the whip and you won't even need to use it.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

A lot of riding school horses become dull to the leg because they get begrudging about having to work so carrying a crop that you've shown the horse that you're willing to use if needed isn't a bad idea at all.
I usually find that if you use it once at the beginning of the ride when the horse stops listening to your legs then you only need to be carrying it for them to sharpen up. I rather see that than a rider who's constantly banging her heels and legs on a horse's sides while the horse is still plodding reluctantly along.
As long as you focus on improving your legs and don't rely on the whip then its not a problem at all.
If the whip is used correctly then there's no need for it to be abuse and the horse isn't going to become non-responsive too it.
Para Dressage rider Angelika Trabert has no legs and uses two schooling whips instead of leg cues. Her horse isn't afraid of them and isn't becoming 'dead' to them. I'm not saying that you should use the crop instead of your legs, just that used correctly they're simply another 'tool'


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> A lot of riding school horses become dull to the leg because they get begrudging about having to work so carrying a crop that you've shown the horse that you're willing to use if needed isn't a bad idea at all.
> I usually find that if you use it once at the beginning of the ride when the horse stops listening to your legs then you only need to be carrying it for them to sharpen up. I rather see that than a rider who's constantly banging her heels and legs on a horse's sides while the horse is still plodding reluctantly along.
> As long as you focus on improving your legs and don't rely on the whip then its not a problem at all.
> If the whip is used correctly then there's no need for it to be abuse and the horse isn't going to become non-responsive too it.
> ...


Impressive video for me, the rider's accomplishment, riding like that .with no legs to assist her balance


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Jaydee, that video brought tears to my eyes!!

The wonderful harmony between those two was amazing. What a wonderful horse!!!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

'tapping' with a crop can end up in the same way that leg aids become dulled out to the horse. The crop is meant to reinforce an ignored leg aid, so just a little tap is only just enough to ensure that the horse will come through all your aids, the ask, the tell and go all the way to 'tap' of the crop before giving you what you asked for. 

The crop should be applied briskly. it needs to make a memorable impression. Now, you CAN strike your own boot and still make a memorable impression. the noise alone can be enough to startle a horse out of the dullness and into being more willing to respect a light leg. 
but, a tap-tapping will only build in a disregard for the crop as well as the leg.

If I am riding a hrose who has been given many polite requests, including ONE tap of the crop, then I will lay it on them . . . SMACK! either on my own leg, loudly, or, on their haunch or neck (I use the neck if I suspect the hrose will buck). It is basically a "listen up!!!" cue, so it doesn't need to necessarily be applied right where your leg would be applied.

However, when using a dressage whip, it probably WOULD be applied behind your heel, where your leg should have made in impression.


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## Sandycat (Apr 7, 2017)

My friend (she's actually more of a mother figure to me) did trail riding when she was my age about 30 years ago. Her sister still owns some rocky mountain horses. They both tend to be pretty set against English riding. For instance, she thinks posting is pointless and might be hurtful to the horse, which I know is untrue. I don't think either of them had any formal training. Her upsetness about the crop just had me second guessing myself. 

I can see how if someone didn't know better, they could think that a whip is cruel. I'm glad to know that it seems I'm using it correctly. I had to be told a few times to smack him harder because I tapped him so lightly he didn't respond. It just feels odd to hit him, you know. 

I'm going to really work on my leg strength and hopefully soon I'll only carry it as a reminder.

I was pretty proud of myself during this lesson. I was able to post an entire lap around the arena a coupe times. I never thought I'd get posting! Lol

My horse kept slowing down at letter S for some reason, but that is probably a topic for another thread! ☺





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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Sandycat said:


> My horse kept slowing down at letter S for some reason, but that is probably a topic for another thread! ☺
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk



*"S" as in snooze....*
_sorry, I could not resist teasing...:redface:

I promise to behave....:smile:

We have all been where you are....
Muscle strength and memory takes time to accomplish and learn.
Pat yourself on the back you got the posting trot, carrying a crop correctly and steering all working together in a short time...
I rode into more walls learning to post, concentrating so hard on up down and diagonal I forgot to steer. 

You're doing great....:thumbsup:
Continue on and enjoy!!
:runninghorse2:....
_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Sandycat said:


> My friend (she's actually more of a mother figure to me) did trail riding when she was my age about 30 years ago. Her sister still owns some rocky mountain horses.* They both tend to be pretty set against English riding. For instance, she thinks posting is pointless and might be hurtful to the horse, *which I know is untrue. I don't think either of them had any formal training. Her upsetness about the crop just had me second guessing myself.
> 
> I can see how if someone didn't know better, they could think that a whip is cruel. I'm glad to know that it seems I'm using it correctly. I had to be told a few times to smack him harder because I tapped him so lightly he didn't respond. It just feels odd to hit him, you know.
> 
> ...


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

I agree with a lot of the other posters that using a whip can be a lot less bothersome to the horse than not using one. I rode one horse for a couple summers who, on my first two rides, would balk, go backwards, rub my leg on the fence... I had big fights with him just to get him to move forward at ALL, which made us both frustrated and grumpy and took a lot of time out of our rides. Well, you know what I didn't have with me those first two rides? A whip. The third ride, it took two taps total, and he didn't balk or rub my leg even once for the rest of the ride. The next ride, one tap. The next rides... no taps... but I had to HAVE the whip!

As you're a beginner still learning how to use your legs, the horse is probably even grateful for the tap-up with the whip, because noise from your legs is probably confusing right now, whereas, if you tap him up, he at least knows what you're asking and can come through for you.

Before or after one of your lessons, take the whip you're using and try swatting your thigh with it with different levels of force. I think you'll be surprised at how hard you actually have to hit before it becomes painful.

Also, your friend is wrong on a couple of points. Western riders DO use whips -- rein ends, quirts, over-and-under whips -- and posting IS better for a horse's back, over long distances or especially with a beginner rider who is likely bump them hard on the back while still learning to sit the trot effectively.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Sandycat said:


> The instructor told me that the horse would much rather have one tap with the whip than keep getting kicked over and over. It makes sense. She also said it is never to be used as a punishment.


I don't agree about your legs not being strong enough - you shouldn't need brute force to train a horse correctly to yield to pressure. Esp if you're using purely pressure to train, you do have to 'back up' your pressure cues tho, with *effective* measures, uncomfortable enough that the horse will not choose to ignore. So agree with others & the way your instructor is teaching you. 

But why I'm commenting here is the last sentence above. It IS ABSOLUTELY punishment. That is exactly & only what it is, no 2 ways about it. I'm mystified by this comment - what does she think it is, if not punishment & what does she think punishment is, if hitting a horse with a crop(or whatever other unpleasant stimulus you use, in order to weaken a behaviour) is not seen as punishment?? :|


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## Sandycat (Apr 7, 2017)

loosie said:


> I don't agree about your legs not being strong enough - you shouldn't need brute force to train a horse correctly to yield to pressure. Esp if you're using purely pressure to train, you do have to 'back up' your pressure cues tho, with *effective* measures, uncomfortable enough that the horse will not choose to ignore. So agree with others & the way your instructor is teaching you.
> 
> But why I'm commenting here is the last sentence above. It IS ABSOLUTELY punishment. That is exactly & only what it is, no 2 ways about it. I'm mystified by this comment - what does she think it is, if not punishment & what does she think punishment is, if hitting a horse with a crop(or whatever other unpleasant stimulus you use, in order to weaken a behaviour) is not seen as punishment?? :|


I took it to mean something like beating the horse out of anger.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

loosie said:


> I don't agree about your legs not being strong enough - you shouldn't need brute force to train a horse correctly to yield to pressure. Esp if you're using purely pressure to train, you do have to 'back up' your pressure cues tho, with *effective* measures, uncomfortable enough that the horse will not choose to ignore. So agree with others & the way your instructor is teaching you.
> 
> But why I'm commenting here is the last sentence above. It IS ABSOLUTELY punishment. That is exactly & only what it is, no 2 ways about it. I'm mystified by this comment - what does she think it is, if not punishment & what does she think punishment is, if hitting a horse with a crop(or whatever other unpleasant stimulus you use, in order to weaken a behaviour) is not seen as punishment?? :|


I don't look at a tap to remind a horse that I can and will up the energy as a punishment. Punishment implies discomfort of some kind and frequently pain, to me. So by saying it should never be used as punishment, I take the instructor as saying that you should not lose your temper and whip the horse over and over to tell it it's done wrong. A tap, then A WHACK, should be more than sufficient to tell the horse "Wake up and taste the toast.". The whack is more firmly demanding the horse tune in but again, as soon as the horse listens, it isn't repeated. Punishment would be hitting and hitting and hitting regardless if the horse gives the right answer. At least that's how I'm interpreting what I read.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I don't look at a tap to remind a horse that I can and will up the energy as a punishment. Punishment implies discomfort of some kind and frequently pain, to me. So by saying it should never be used as punishment, I take the instructor as saying that you should not lose your temper and whip the horse over and over to tell it it's done wrong. A tap, then A WHACK, should be more than sufficient to tell the horse "Wake up and taste the toast.". The whack is more firmly demanding the horse tune in but again, as soon as the horse listens, it isn't repeated. Punishment would be hitting and hitting and hitting regardless if the horse gives the right answer. At least that's how I'm interpreting what I read.


I'm with you on that one, for all the reasons you explain. 

I ride with a whip the whole time now, because my right leg is getting weaker, and I sometimes need to back it up. A horse who is slowing up coming into a fence and who is given a "sharpen up" tap is a reminder. The horse who refuses a fence and the rider takes the reins in one hand and then beats the heck out of the horse with the whip, that I see as punishment.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sandycat said:


> My friend (she's actually more of a mother figure to me) did trail riding when she was my age about 30 years ago. Her sister still owns some rocky mountain horses. They both tend to be pretty set against English riding. For instance, she thinks posting is pointless and might be hurtful to the horse, which I know is untrue. I don't think either of them had any formal training. Her upsetness about the crop just had me second guessing myself.
> 
> I can see how if someone didn't know better, they could think that a whip is cruel. I'm glad to know that it seems I'm using it correctly. I had to be told a few times to smack him harder because I tapped him so lightly he didn't respond. It just feels odd to hit him, you know.
> 
> ...


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## Phantomrose (Jul 25, 2016)

Agreed with the above posters about proper crop use. When I think of punishment, I think of using the tool to cause pain, or repeatedly hitting the horse with the crop. That is not the proper and responsible way to use the crop. I know this rule/guideline has been repeated multiple times, but always, ALWAYS follow the steps of ask, tell, demand. The goal is for the horse to be able to respond to the lightest of cues given by the rider. 


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Don't fell guilty, a lot of lesson horses need a crop. We don't use them on our horses at home, because they're not dulled by constantly being kicked or thumped by legs. However, when my daughter takes lessons on lesson horses, she often has to carry one. Your friend is being overly emotional - there is nothing wrong with using a crop as an aid. In fact, kicking harder and harder is probably worse. 

The reality is that you are riding a lesson horse, and that it has been trained to respond to certain aids, intentionally or not. As one of many riders on this horse, you can't expect it to understand what you are asking if you do not use the same aids it's used to. That said, you can make your "ask" gradual. First ask gently (leg pressure), then slightly more loudly (a nudge), then demand (a tap with the crop). Horses have been shown in recent studies to be able to distinguish communication with different people. If you ride this horse often, it will soon learn that if you ask gently, it should respond rather than wait for you to ask more loudly, then demand!


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

One reason I really enjoy this forum is because there are sensible horse people on it. You've gotten great responses.

The only thing I can add is: Practice putting both reins in one hand in order to reach back and tap with the crop, then gathering your reins properly again. Even jockeys practice to get a smooth motion.

I use a dressage whip because I like the longer length. 

My personal horse is an Irish bred TB. I occasionally have to pop him to make him realize we are in a working situation. After that I merely have to show it sideways into his line of vision to remind him. Ack. He reminds me of an uncle I had (old Irishman) whose wife could have used a crop. Some horses, like some people, are gems, but need a little prodding to achieve their potential.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Punishment would be hitting and hitting and hitting regardless if the horse gives the right answer. At least that's how I'm interpreting what I read.


Oh OK, I see that a number of people think that's what punishment is - purely abuse. I also better appreciate why people are against the use of any punishment, if that's the way they understand it. The proper meaning of punishment is purely applying something unpleasant, undesirable, to a 'wrong' behaviour in order to weaken/lessen the likelihood of it's being repeated.



> I don't look at a tap to remind a horse that I can and will up the energy as a punishment. Punishment implies discomfort of some kind and frequently pain, to me.


But what is a tap with a crop, let alone a boot in the side, if it's not 'discomfort' or pain?? Or are you only talking a very light 'boot' or tap, not unpleasant & so is purely another cue, that the horse has to learn the meaning of, from whatever follows it - eg 'real' punishment?

Behavioural definitions;
Positive(+) punishment = Adding(+) something undesirable in order to weaken motivation for a behaviour.
Eg. hitting or kicking a horse for ignoring a cue. Strong rein pressure for ignoring a soft cue...

Positive(+) reinforcement = Adding(+) something desirable in order to strengthen a behaviour.
Eg. rewarding a horse with a treat, scratch, rub - whatever HE finds desirable at that time, *at the time of* a behaviour you want him to do again. 

Negative(-) punishment = Removing(-) or withholding something desirable in order to weaken a behaviour.
Eg. withholding feed while the horse is 'hairy eyeballing' you for it.

Negative reinforcement = Removing something undesirable(leg/rein pressure for eg) in order to strengthen a behaviour.
Eg. removing rein/leg pressure when the horse yields to the pressure. The primary way most horses are trained.


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## Sandycat (Apr 7, 2017)

@loosie You are talking about the scientific definition of punishment as it relates to training. I have always been fascinated with animal behavior and training. I understand exactly what you are saying, but I think that most people don't think of it that way.

For example, at my very first riding lesson my instructor explained that horses are taught by removing pressure, I thought to myself "oh, they use negative reinforcement". I asked her if they only use negative reinforcement or if they ever use positive reinforcement. She had no idea what negative reinforcement was, even though she uses it every day. Most people have never even heard the term. I think it's the same with punishment. A whip is technically punishment if you used it after a behavior to discourage it again. But it could be seen as negative reinforcement too, if you continuously tap the horse and stop when he does the required behavior. 

So when my instructor said don't use a whip as punishment, I took it to at the "layman's" definition as "don't beat the horse silly when he does something bad". 

I hope that explained what I'm trying to say!  

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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

loosie said:


> Oh OK, I see that a number of people think that's what punishment is - purely abuse. I also better appreciate why people are against the use of any punishment, if that's the way they understand it. The proper meaning of punishment is purely applying something unpleasant, undesirable, to a 'wrong' behaviour in order to weaken/lessen the likelihood of it's being repeated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Loosie, you're talking behavioral modification lingo, I'm speaking in layman's terms. Don't beat the fur off the horse for not responding. So, I sit down and drive with my seat for forward, I want him to step over to the right and get on the rail, he wallows and doesn't move when I put my calf on him. I then press calf and ankle to him, pushing firmly and raising the level of the request. He still ignores me. So I turn my toe out and touch him with the spur. At this point if he doesn't step lively, he gets a tap with the dressage whip or crop and more drive. I'm still just telling him to move over and go forward, in a firm tone but not 'shouting'. Applying the dressage whip or crop behind my leg or on his backside, yes just a tap not a whip, basically telling him, "If you don't do what I've asked & told you to do right THIS minute, then I will raise my energy level and the energy of my ask to a DEMAND." and then I would really tap him with the whip. The LAST time I hit would probably be considered punishment. If at any time during the escalation phase, he did what was asked, even 1 step, then everything de-escalates back down to the softest cues again. If he gives even 1 step in the direction I also pet & praise and give him a minute to think about it before asking again.


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## tbrl (Jul 28, 2017)

I´m a rank beginner myself. So I'm completely aware that I do not know much about horses, but sometimes I just can`t help thinking that it has to be another way than whacking a horse with a crop each time it does not listen.
I'm taking lessons at two barns, they are quite different, and both of them has its advantages and faults.

Yesterday I was taking a lesson at the english dressage barn , where I usually rides the same horse whenever I can. He has an amazing personality , stubborn as they come, and I do think he has a sense of humor. 
Sometimes, while in the indoor arena , he may suddenly face the wall, and then he seems to say " sorry, can't move, my face are planted in the wall"
I do think its quite cute. He will also go into the middle of the arena and refuse to move, or pretend to pee just to have a break. 
The instructors always tells me to use the crop, hit him harder, and be more assertive with him. And I do see their point. They use him at beginner-lessons and they need him to do what he is told.

BUT, what if he refuse for a reason? Maybe he is trying to tell us that its something wrong.. Maybe one of his legs are hurt, or he feels real stiff in the bones, or has a flu or something. Should we not listen to him? 
He is not an ATV , and I cannot help but think that if he is going to teach me how to ride, and be such a patient angel about it, the least I could do, is to listen to him.. not whack him every time he has an opinion. 

Yesterday, he did everything I told him to. The instructor said that they had pushed him really hard after the last time I had ridden him. And now he was doing everything I told him to. 
We were trotting a lot, but not cantering or doing more than we usually does, so he should be fine. But he was not! He was breathing real hard when we were done, and when I put him in his stall, he was soaked with sweat. That's not normal for him...
And again I'm left thinking that it just ain´t fair that we are not listening to him. He should be allowed to tell us when something is wrong, and we should listen.

Its just a dilemma for me. I see the reason in that we do need to have some control over the horse, and we do need the horses to respect us. 
But is there really no other way? A way where they can be free to express themselves, and where we can do some compromising?


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

tbrl said:


> I´m a rank beginner myself. So I'm completely aware that I do not know much about horses, but sometimes I just can`t help thinking that it has to be another way than whacking a horse with a crop each time it does not listen.
> I'm taking lessons at two barns, they are quite different, and both of them has its advantages and faults.
> 
> Yesterday I was taking a lesson at the english dressage barn , where I usually rides the same horse whenever I can. He has an amazing personality , stubborn as they come, and I do think he has a sense of humor.
> ...


That is where our responsibility as their stewards comes into play. In exchange for being our mounts and cooperating, we need to be good enough to them to recognize when something is wrong. It's hard as a beginner when you don't have years of experience to draw on and are unfamiliar with the horse, but that's why you should have someone to mentor you who can see these things. You need to read the horse, the situation, the history, and decide what is in or out of character for that horse at that time. 

ex. Horse is off his game, not responding quickly, seems not as forward as usual. Everything seems normal, sound and no apparent health problems. Then you recall how it was brutally cold and windy all day yesterday and night. Horse likely hasn't gotten a good sleep in a day or so. So you do something simple, short ride, and throw a blanket on for the night.

ex. Old reliable picked up the wrong lead a few times in his lesson. Unusual, but he doesn't appear to be lame. When he is still missing leads the next ride, a vet visit reveals new arthritic changes in his hock. Treatment resolves the lead issue.

Then you have the times you have to force a horse through something even if they don't want to. It's for their own good (directly or indirectly).

ex. Horse has never been taught how to travel correctly. Trainer gets on and tries to show horse how to do it, but horse is a bit defensive(mentally) and gets offended, acts out. Might not be pretty, but after 10min you'll have a horse who finally gives a big sigh and relaxes. Horse realizes this new way feels good and doesn't try to fight it anymore.

ex. Up down lesson horse. Ridden only by beginner kids. After a few timid kids, horse figures he can start ignoring those tiny flapping legs. It's a whole lot easier to stand in the center than trot around for an hour. No one has gotten after him yet, and he can tolerate the kid's feeble pleading. Does his job suck? In a way, but it's a relatively easy one. No one asks much of him, and he's breaking his side of the contract by ignoring the kids. If the horse doesn't shape up and listen, he's likely to be sold.


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## tbrl (Jul 28, 2017)

The last example is him in a nutshell.

I do have an instructor of course, and she is amazing. Actually , all the people that works there, are great instructors with a lot of experience. And all of them wants to do right about both the horses and riders. ( that´s what I love about the place. And the fact that their facilities, both for horses and humans, are great)

But I still feel its hard to know when he is refusing to do something because he don't feel like doing it, vs don't feel well. Especially because he is known to be stubborn and a bit lazy. So because he is usually a bit lazy, its easy for the instructors to assume he is just his lazy self. 
While I would like to error on the side of too soft. Too cautious..
I do think that might be a personality trait that I have, I'm not a dominant or assertive person. I can be strict if the need really arise of course, but I much prefer everybody to think for themselves, rather than just mindlessly obey me.
I see that might be a problem with horses. But are there no way of just using positive reinforcement to reach the same goal?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

tbrl said:


> The last example is him in a nutshell.
> 
> I do have an instructor of course, and she is amazing. Actually , all the people that works there, are great instructors with a lot of experience. And all of them wants to do right about both the horses and riders. ( that´s what I love about the place. And the fact that their facilities, both for horses and humans, are great)
> 
> ...


With your own horse you can do as you please and let him stand in the middle or face the wall or refuse to listen in any way you want. But, when it isn't your horse you don't get to make those choices. The instructors have seen him "play" the sympathetic beginners, the little kids who don't have a lot of kick, or the timid riders who are just plain afraid to make him go. He has figured out many ways to get out of work all together, shorten a lesson, or lighten his load, that's what schoolies do. 

A horse who just stops and stands and refuses to go can be ill or in pain, but I promise those instructors know what's what before you ever get on the horse. If he's poorly, they'll pull him from the lesson. 

I ride a schoolie named Snickers in my Western Dressage lessons. When I do things right, there's no lighter horse in the world than Snickers. What makes him the ideal schoolie is, when I don't do things right he just ignores the incorrect cue and makes me work for it. As soon as I'm right, BAM we're there. Whether we're doing turns on the forehand, hindquarter, side passing, backing up or whatever, when I'm right, there's no question. HE is training ME and doing a very good job of it. When I get off him, and go to one of MY horses that is in training and green, I know how to apply the cue I want and how to get the horse to do it. I told the trainer the other day, "When I'm riding Snickers there's never a question of him being confused. HE knows his job. When I do it right, he does his job. If he stops doing his job, it's ME that didn't do something right. I LOVE this horse!". I'd buy him in a minute if she'd even consider selling him, but he's much too valuable to her. 

Point is, when you let the horse get away with his evasions, you're making it hard on the next student. You may not particularly care if you get your money's worth out of the lesson but at $90/hr, I sure do and would be very resentful if another student let the horse be difficult which then made it more difficult for me.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

tbrl said:


> But I still feel its hard to know when he is refusing to do something because he don't feel like doing it, vs don't feel well. Especially because he is known to be stubborn and a bit lazy. So because he is usually a bit lazy, its easy for the instructors to assume he is just his lazy self.
> While I would like to error on the side of too soft. Too cautious..


Something to think about though....if someone tells you to do something, lets imagine that we are a teenager, and mum says "go clean your room" and you think "Yeah, in a minute" You settle back to your game, your book, whatever, and you hear "go clean your room" and you are still going to get around to it....3 or 4 requests later you still haven't done it, and now she is mad, and you are resentful, and the room still isn't clean. Final scenario is usually shouting door slamming and someone gets grounded, right?

Now as a rider you avoid that...

You start with getting the horses attention, for me it's a half halt "Listen up we are going to do something"
Then the request, "I'm squeezing with my calves, I want you to trot"
"Don't feel like it" or possibly "sorry don't understand

So we amp up...

Nudge with the heel "I want you to trot"
"Yeah still don't feel like it right now"

So at this stage I know that he knows how to trot, I know he is totally familiar with the aids to trot, so I will use the whip, one firm rap behind the leg, that says "NOW"

Horses like teenagers can ignore nagging for ages, then overreact when you blow...so keep the requests reasonable, if you have asked nicely twice, then there are consequences.

I managed, accidentally to kind of deaden Fergie to the leg, because I am by nature a nagger, now I have stopped the nagging and things are a lot more pleasant for everyone. I give clear signals, she understands that now means NOW, and gets so much more praise and loving during our rides than she did before.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

I occasionally carry a crop when I ride. I rarely use it, but have found that sometimes a tap on the butt (not a place his cues normally come from) reminds him to 'listen up' to what my seat, legs and hands are telling him. It isn't punishment, and it isn't really a riding cue - it's just my way of telling him to quit daydreaming and pay attention.


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## tbrl (Jul 28, 2017)

#dreamcatcher Arabians #Golden Horse
I do understand your point, and I try to do what the instructors tell me to do. But I always worry that he might not feel well, like the last time, when he seemed unreasonable sweaty and heavy-breathed for such a ordinary lesson. 
But you are right in that they usually figure it out if a horse is not feeling well. At least they did when my daughters lesson-pony went lame, and she told them that something was off about him. They looked at him, and then he was in rest for a very long time, so I do know they take their health seriously. 
Its just a bit emotionally hard for me to push him I guess. Always worried that he might struggle with something.
I do think I'm a bit too soft by nature. 
I must admit I am that way with my kids too.. No grounding or punishments of any kind in this house. Just talking and trying to make them figure out how they should have reacted or behaved. But kids are easier, we speak the same language. So they can tell me when somethings wrong.

Snickers seems like a good lesson-horse. Reminds me of an icelandic I am riding at the other place I am taking lessons. 
I rode him for months and seriously thought he was totally clueless about any normal cues.. 
He would act stupid each time I tried to ask him to slow down, halt or do "shoulder in" in the lessons. 
Suddenly after a few months , he did whatever I asked of him. I was totally flabbergasted. 
Maybe I'm finally starting to give him the correct cues  
He is an amazing little pony. Do not have any assertive problems with him though. He is very willing and seems to like lessons. (unlike the other one, that`s kinda tired of going around in circles I guess) Never used a crop at that place, and never seen anybody else use one either. 

I do not know if I nag, I guess I probably do.. And the one that is always stopping, is probably quite used to nagging, since he is always used by beginners. 
We had one lesson once, where I seriously was afraid I would not be able to stand after the lesson. I was bone-tired, totally depleted, both mentally and otherwise, after one hour. The instructor was nagging me about all the cues I should give at the same time, and as a total beginner, (and not a very athletic person) I just could not seem to make them all at the same time. 
I have not yet mastered the posting trot at all times, suddenly I just falls out of it, and struggles to find the rhythm again. And sitting trot, while doing circles , giving cues with both the legs, keep the hands quiet AND use a crop at the same time.. I might get it in a ten years.. maybe...??


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

tbrl said:


> I do not know if I nag, I guess I probably do.. And the one that is always stopping, is probably quite used to nagging, since he is always used by beginners.
> We had one lesson once, where I seriously was afraid I would not be able to stand after the lesson. I was bone-tired, totally depleted, both mentally and otherwise, after one hour. *The instructor was nagging me about all the cues I should give at the same time, and as a total beginner, (and not a very athletic person) I just could not seem to make them all at the same time. *
> I have not yet mastered the posting trot at all times, suddenly I just falls out of it, and struggles to find the rhythm again. And sitting trot, while doing circles , giving cues with both the legs, keep the hands quiet AND use a crop at the same time.. I might get it in a ten years.. maybe...??


I think in a lot of ways, you're way overthinking things at the one place. Just remember, your job is to come ride the horse and learn. It's not to worry about the horse, to be concerned if he's sweaty, or huffing or ......whatever. Just get on and ride to the best of your ability and you'll both be less sweaty, less stressed and breathing easier. Re-read your sentence that I bolded and think about how that felt to the horse. You got nagged, you nagged and neither of you felt like you accomplished what you came for. Stop worrying about what is not your business and concentrate on what is, learning to ride. Leave the horse care and management up to the staff, it's what they're paid for. If there's really something wrong with the horse, they'll figure it out and either pull him from the lesson string or they'll stop your lesson and take you off of him. It's not your problem, they can give you another horse. If and when you ever get your own horse, then you can start to worry about horse management, but you're not there yet.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

loosie said:


> Dunno where my previous reply went. Basically I said...
> 
> I see most people who have replied obviously think of punishment just as abusive behaviour. I was meaning it in the proper sense. Ie. just the (well timed) application/addition of an unpleasant stimuli, in order to weaken/stop a behaviour.
> 
> ...


We're not talking the same level of force, I don't think. I rarely ever take my foot out far enough to deliver a "hard boot in the sides" or hit the horse with the crop or whip hard enough to be a "WHACK". Those are reserved for either dangerous situations or a complete, disrespectful blow off by the horse. Most of the time, I'll drive with my butt, squeeze with my thighs then down to the calf and maybe a cluck or 2 depending on do I want walk or trot. Kiss if I want canter. If the horse doesn't move after that, then I squeeze again, using my whole lower leg, repeat the kiss or cluck. Still no response gets the tap with the spur and the tap and I mean a gentle tap with the end of the whip. If there's complete, "yeah, no, contact my secretary, maybe next Tues but probably not", going on, then I'll swat behind my leg a little harder with the whip and realllllly drive with my seat. That's generally plenty of encouragement for someone who is really trying to convince me they don't want to go that day. Now if that same horse decides, "OK, I'll go but you're not gonna like it." and decides to do a bolt or bucks or something along those lines, then yes, I'll get really tough on them. That's the point where if they had fingers, they'd be giving me a one finger salute. At my age, I don't ride that horse but once and then (if it's my horse) they're sold. If it's a school horse I won't get on again. Simple. I've ridden rank and I don't have to ride rank anymore. I'm getting too old for that nonsense.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> or hit the horse with the crop or whip hard enough to be a "WHACK".


Pardon if I got thw wrong one, but I thought I was responding to your word, WHACK in capitals, which did imply to me that you weren't just talking a light tap. As is usually the case, I agree with what you've said Dream. Was just - as often, on a WWW forum - a discrepancy in definitions that we're on about ;-)

Regardless whether it's painful or just 'mild' discomfort, yes, it's still punishment, not just in 'behavioural lingo', IME. I do absolutely get yours & OP's point, far as 'technical v's lay definitions'(& the other descriptions, of reinforcement etc are often confused by 'lay' people, understandably). But I find it interesting that it sounds like to you guys in your neck of the woods, punishment = abuse, whereas my definition is generally how people here use it _commonly_. Albeit many people don't understand the importance of timing tho, so will punish(or reward) a horse *after* a behaviour has been & gone...


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

loosie said:


> Pardon if I got thw wrong one, but I thought I was responding to your word, WHACK in capitals, which did imply to me that you weren't just talking a light tap. As is usually the case, I agree with what you've said Dream. Was just - as often, on a WWW forum - a discrepancy in definitions that we're on about ;-)
> 
> Regardless whether it's painful or just 'mild' discomfort, yes, it's still punishment, not just in 'behavioural lingo', IME. I do absolutely get yours & OP's point, far as 'technical v's lay definitions'(& the other descriptions, of reinforcement etc are often confused by 'lay' people, understandably). But I find it interesting that it sounds like to you guys in your neck of the woods, punishment = abuse, whereas my definition is generally how people here use it _commonly_. Albeit many people don't understand the importance of timing tho, so will punish(or reward) a horse *after* a behaviour has been & gone...


My bad because the last time I actually WHACKED a horse with a crop or a whip, I was still riding hunters and that's been many many years ago, like I don't think I was even 30 yet. Timing is everything. It does no good to whack, whip, beat on a horse after the behaviour has come and gone. You have to catch them just right or don't bother. I don't have any video of me riding, but I wish I could show you what I mean about tapping with the whip. I usually carry a dressage whip on those horses who may need a little extra encouragement and when I say tap it's really kind of more like a soft 'flick' with the very tail unless the horse really balks. 

Here are the spurs I normall wear,







, I turn my toe out and bump the horse with the ball. I'm not sure they could really even dig in and gig a horse if I wanted them too, but again, I just bump and move on. Anyone who really needs a good gigging, needs a new zip code because I don't want to ride them.


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## Phantomrose (Jul 25, 2016)

When I use the crop on my pony, it’s more of a tap than anything. I rarely have to use the crop on him, but I do carry it with me every time I get on him, just so that he is aware that it is there. When he does ignore the lightest aid, then I move on to a more firm aid. When he doesn’t respond to that, a tap usually suffices. It’s like a “Hey I asked you to do something, I gave you two chances, you didn’t do it, please pay attention.” On the time that I do have to use the crop on him during our riding sessions, it’s only once then back to the program and him responding to the lightest of cues that I give him. 


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I wish I could show you what I mean about tapping with the whip.


Well I really don't think you have to show ME what you mean, because I reckon I know, & think that you'd do it the same as I would actually, from many previous posts of yours I've read. This has become a purely academic discussion due to the different meanings of the term punishment I reckon.



> Anyone who really needs a good gigging, needs a new zip code because I don't want to ride them.


Tho I'd tend to think it's the owner/trainer(that caused the resistance) of the horse that needs a new zip code away from ANY horse & I've found it's (generally) pretty easy & so worth a try, to RE sensitise a horse to soft cues, if you're the consistent rider of the horse.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

loosie said:


> Well I really don't think you have to show ME what you mean, because I reckon I know, & think that you'd do it the same as I would actually, from many previous posts of yours I've read. This has become a purely academic discussion due to the different meanings of the term punishment I reckon.
> 
> 
> 
> Tho I'd tend to think it's the owner/trainer(that caused the resistance) of the horse that needs a new zip code away from ANY horse & I've found it's (generally) pretty easy & so worth a try, to RE sensitise a horse to soft cues, if you're the consistent rider of the horse.


That can work for a younger rider than I am, I no longer have any interest in riding a horse who is seriously resistant to anything.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

What a great thread <3

In regards to the topic, I've always followed the 'ask, tell, demand' type of method. I think it's always important to give the horse the opportunity to give you the right answer before you ramp up your requests to 10. On the other hand, I don't have time to pitter around at a walk all day just because I'm being to 'polite', so to speak.
OP, sounds like you've got a solid trainer and have gotten a good understanding of how to use a crop effectively.


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## Sandycat (Apr 7, 2017)

@tbrl You described exactly how I feel sometimes! There's so many things to do at once. I'll be posting along just fine, but forget to turn. Or I'll make the turn and lose my rhythm! Lol. I'm glad it's not just that I'm terribly un-athletic, but it sounds like it's something everyone goes through. 
@horselovingguy 

I have also ran into a few walls so far. My first lesson horse (the one I'm kinda sorta leasing) would turn if I didn't. The current horse I'm riding will literally trot up to the wall and just stop...nose on the fence! Lol. Not sure which horse is smarter! 




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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Sandycat said:


> @tbrl You described exactly how I feel sometimes! There's so many things to do at once. I'll be posting along just fine, but forget to turn.


I tell my kids they're good riders & they shouldn't feel like they're not because I keep 'correcting' or pointing out stuff they've missed/forgotten, that because there are so many little specifics, they shouldn't be expected to get everything without reminders...


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