# When do you call it quits with an inconsistent, dominant horse?



## cowgirlextreme1957 (Jul 16, 2012)

I am new to this forum and am wondering if anyone can give me some input/advice in regards to some very perplexing problems with our 5 year old Rocky Mountain horse that we have owned for approximately 7 months.

A brief history of the horse prior to our purchasing him is that he basically had no demands made of him in his first almost 5 years of life, so no true “work ethic”. He initially presented to us that he was a very dominant gelding....he would torment our other horses if turned out with them, nonstop. He was very disrespectful when leading, and if you asked anything of him he would shove his left shoulder into you and virtually try to run over the top of you. You could not halter him....if he seen the lead rope or halter....actually anything you would carry in your hands, he was gone....not just physically gone, but mentally gone as well....he even jumped over a fence to get away when I walked into the paddock to get him. He loved people as long as everything was on HIS terms. 

We proceeded with a complete round penning course to gain respect...complete desensitizing, etc. He showed us he was extremely intelligent....too intelligent for his own good. We faced a lot of challenges along the way and we were in constant contact with a local professional trainer, giving us advice every time the horse would try to “one up us”. We would make progress, then regress, then more progress, then regress again. The horse has been extremely difficult to get to accept the saddle and bridle....he blows and snorts EVERY time you go to saddle him....this is after 5 steady months of saddling, bridling, and riding. He will still act like he has never seen a saddle or bridle in his life. On one occasion he broke off a 6 x 6 when we approached him with the saddle...and we had had at least 20 successful saddlings and rides prior to this. 

Once saddled and bridled, he acts as relaxed as can be. It is getting there that is the problem. There is nothing physically wrong with the horse. He has been checked for saddle fit, he has had myler bits, and gentle hands when in the bridle. He is soft in the bridle, very responsive, and excellent on the trail. He is a joy to ride, does anything you ask, once you get past the first 10-15 minutes. He tends to be very nervous for that first 10-15 minutes, which I have experienced previously with young horses, so that is not so much a concern. It is the saddling and bridling that stumps us....we were told to use the saddle just as the other desensitizing objects...go towards him and if he moves keep following him, and when he stops, drop the saddle immediately and walk away....release the pressure. It worked great for awhile....he accepted it with no problem for awhile...then he regressed...then he was fine....then he regressed....we can saddle him a dozen times in one day....he can be fine for 6 times, and horrible for 6 times....it makes no sense whatsoever.

We still feel that after all the round penning that he still does not respect us....because at times when we go to saddle him he will throw that left shoulder into you and try to knock you out of the way. We will then lunge him around on the long line to establish the boundaries and he will lick and relax, but it always seems to be short-lived. 

Any time he happens to get turned out with the other horses and gets the chance to reestablish his dominance, we find that he then is more difficult to handle....so we keep him separate. He has never really been completely knocked down off his “high horse” by any other horse throughout his life. He has succeeded with this dominant attitude, and our take is that he still is “above us”. I have done research on dominant horses, and have read everything from putting him in with a dominant mare or gelding so he can be “put in his place”, to having someone “lay him down” as that will be a lesson of ultimate respect, to just keep at it and miles and miles of wet saddle blankets will finally sink in. 

He did buck me off a week ago when I was leaving out on a trail ride....I seen him give a few looks back towards home and suddenly it felt like he was traveling with the emergency brake on....before I knew it he had his head buried between his front legs and was what I call “flippin' buckin”....I didn't have a prayer of staying with him. Now I am concerned because he is such a dominant and intelligent horse that he will remember that....he hurt me badly enough that I could not get back on him....all I was able to do was take him behind our John Deere Gator and pony him for about 6 miles so he did not get out of working. I have not been back on him....he was supposed to go into training on August 3rd, come out on September 3rd, and then leave out on a shore-to-shore criss cross ride here in Michigan on September 7th. I thought after that I would possibly have a good horse. I have talked with the trainer and his concern is that in the 5 months we have seriously worked with him, the horse is not showing any consistency...he is unpredictable. I love this horse, and am struggling with WHEN IS IT TIME TO LET GO??? When do you decide that something between the ears is not quite right? :?


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

He doesn't sound consistent and it may not be his fault. 

It sounds like you two don't really click.. not sure why but maybe you should have a trainer personally work with him to see if it's him being ornery or it's how you two communicate.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

I have no idea. All I can think of is, is your training consistent? Sounds like you have a good plan, and your doing good on your end. But is there any way that he is getting confused with what your asking or what you want? Do you know of any real dominant horses you could put him out with? I would be worried about injuries, but it sounds like that might be something he needs...


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## chandra1313 (Jul 12, 2011)

I had a Rocky Mountain somewhat similar to this. He was 8 and had never had much work put on him. We were given him because he kept escaping and the police were getting involved and the owner was scared he would get into trouble.

In the saddle he was pretty good, wasn't afraid of anything, one of the easiest horses to load that I have ever seen. On the ground not so good he would use you as a rubbing post. He was absolutely mare crazy even though he was fixed. My sister was terrified of him and he would put on this huge showboat looking thing, head tossing, snorting running back and forward. He didn't do that to me and for some reason I wasn't afraid of him. My other gelding was the dominant one but when I put them together they developed a constant back and forwards on who was going to be leader. One day I went in pasture and he wouldn't move off so I went and got my lunge whip he did his little showboat crap and I chased him off and as he ran off he did a huge kick out but wasn't paying attention and caught himself of the fence. 

A friend of mine wanted to buy him from me and knew all of his faults so I sold him to him for $300. I feel much better he sorta reminded me of my brother lol who had hyperactivity and Add. One minute a angel the next a terror. My brother never changed just became smarter about how he went about it.

Life is short and if I'm going to be sipping it through a straw then I want it to be with a horse, that one minute in time changed it all through no fault of their own. I don't want to look back and think why didn't I just get rid of that horse, what makes me so special that I thought this horse can only be with me.

That gelding was a beauty and a easy keeper but he was meant for someone who wants the challenge of his personality.

Good luck.


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## OwnedByAlli (Nov 8, 2011)

Wow I really feel for you! You sound like you've got the right idea on how to work with him, he is just super reserved about accepting human leadeship. I dont think finding a more dominant horse to turn him out with would help that much. Yes he would be submissive to the horse, but I suspect he would leave that lesson behind as soon as her left the pasture :/

Have you done stuff like free lunging- lots of direction change, disengaging the quarters, making him move his feet constantly. Getting him moving will keep his mind busy, while you exert dominance by making him move. What about join up? Im not really NH, but I get the advantages of join up. Get that submissiveness, encourage it. Join up as many times as it takes to get that horse accepting your leadership.

What are your sessions like? 
Perhaps having each session go the same will help. Eg. Lunge/lose-lunge/joinup until the horse is being submissive/joining up (which ever applies). Then proceed to groom and tack up. Then enter the main session-riding, lunging for improvement, in hand stuff. After the session, a rub down followed by feed (if needed).

Also keep to a routein on a weekly basis. Alli thrived when we had a routein of Day 1:lunge/flatwork, Day 2: Jumping, Day 3: hack, Day 4: rest, back to Day 1: lunge/flatwork... So on so on. A 4 day cycle. She knew what to expect so was much happier to work and had a better work ethic.

I really hope you have a break through with this horse- sounds like you deserve it! But like Sky said, perhaps its not working because there isn't that 'click' between you two. Is he the same with all people? Or just those who want him to form some kind of working relationship with him?


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Maybe you have too much of a routine with him...If he's as smart as you say, he would get bored really quick. And like kids, when horses are bored, they get into trouble!!! Or maybe a routine is just what he needs...^^^


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## cowgirlextreme1957 (Jul 16, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LynnF (Jun 1, 2011)

A friend of mine had a gelding similar to this, she worked with him for 2 years and he was still inconsistent. She sold him to another friend of mine who has 160 sections of land and 2000 cow calf pairs, he gets ridden every day checking cows, doctoring, branding etc and has not tested him once. Some horses just don't click with a rider or their training style or just don't enjoy what they are doing. Put this gelding in a round pen or arena and he will push every button you have. Take him out and let him chase cows and rope and he is an angel in every way. 
Not saying you should absolutely sell him but maybe he just does not click with what you are doing and needs a change or scenery.
Good luck!


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## cowgirlextreme1957 (Jul 16, 2012)

A few things I failed to mention in my original post...there have been so many interesting observations concerning this horse.....I have almost 20 years experience with horses, and he is truly the smartest horse I have ever had the pleasure AND frustration of working with. He has llearned the round penning exercises with ease....he is completely respectful on the long line as well as loose....does his turns correctly, yields hind quarters, joins up, follows you anywhere, licking his lips, cocks his back leg.....UNTIL he sees there is a saddle involved. Even if he sees the saddle sitting on a stand you will see an immediate change in attitude. Initially if he seen us saddling other horses he would go as far away in the paddock as possible. He will now come up and see what is going on. Now if we saddle him with other horses standing by he is much better than saddling alone. But he usually always tries to "duck out" and shove that shoulder into you or outright try to body slam you...if you ask him to step over in any way he will just start running backwards.....we go with him and he now always stops instead of running backwards to the next county. Yet if the saddle is not involved he will get out of your space with no problem. I also failed to mention he has the same problem with the pad....yet you can take a tarp, raincoat, plastic bags, any other object and he accepts with no problem. Everyone may not want to believe this, but this horse is so smart he is even aware of the clothing you have on.....if I do not have my jeans and boots on, he is much more complacent about putting the pad and saddle and bridle on....I had to show people for them to believe it. I also own a barepack pad called a Natural Ride....has stirrups and a piece that kays up over the withers and locks in so there is no problem mounting from the ground....I have never rode him in it....you can throw that on him all day long...cinch him up (and by the way he is not cinchy), no blowing, snorting, no ducking out. I believe he knows we are not going anywhere with that bareback pad. He has had consistent riding...we live in northern Michigan and he has well over 750 miles on him since being under saddle in March. The ride may be only 4 miles or may be 30 miles. He is in great condition, seems to truly enjoy being out on the trail. We have made progress in so many areas compared to how he came to us. My take has been that he is too smart for his own good as well as he reminds me of a spoiled juvenile that would throw temper tantrums. He lovez people so much he will leave his hay to come see what is going on or see anyone that stops by. I take him for walks like a dog so everything is not work. I pull him out various times of the day to stand tied and just get groomed...he gets full body massages!!! (lucky horse) He loads in the trailer with no problem, great for farrier, you can use a vacuum or blower on him....he just will not get over the saddling and bridling issues....he can be an angel and then with the flip of a switch he is possessed and acts as if he never seen a human before...we have had him saddle good but when he sees the bridle the switch flips. He iis a horse you cannot get upset with...we do not tie him to saddle and bridle...once he broke the 6x6 off we figured someone was going to get hurt....so we just go with him and he will stop. Has anyone had a horse take this long to accept and settle with saddling and bridling? And I should also mention that if you just walk out with a bridle in your hand into the paddock, he is gone....we have to send him to the round pen for a few exercises and turns and then he comes in and will let me put it on...I just want to eliminate all the drama. He is by nature a blowing and snorting horse...nervous initially about new things but accepts quickly and moves on....except for this. It seems he still has that "screw you, I haven't worked for 5 years, why should I start now?" kind of attitude. This is a mostly love, sometimes hate kind of relationship! I have talked extensively with the trainer (who, btw, is highly recommended) and he is afraid at the end of 30 days I will still have an inconsistent horse. We have taken the horse there for him to work with and show us some things to deal with his inconsistencies, so he has already evaluated this horses personality. I still wonder if he is just a juvenile and needs to mature mentally....or am I beating a dead horse because, as I said, there is something not right between the ears! And for the people that believe you dont buy a horse unless the swirl or whorl between the eyes is centered......HIS IS NOT!! Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## longshot (May 30, 2012)

Prolly get excoriated by some for this, but I'd bring the saddle and pad into the round pen, then I'd lay the horse down. Work on approaching him till he relaxes, then I'd do it with the saddle until he's laying on the ground with his head down with the saddle sitting on his side. I wouldn't let him up till he relaxed. I don't like the process of laying a horse down but it sure conveys the message to their tin can brain. I have only done it once with a very dominant gelding, the change was dramatic to say the least.


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## 2horses (Oct 11, 2009)

In the beginning, my horse was nervous about saddling and the beginning of rides. I had a trainer work with him, and she showed me to free lunge him in the round pen with the saddle in the middle. She said to let him come to the middle to rest when he was ready to be by me and the saddle because he needed encouragement. If he left me and the saddle, we encouraged him to move until he was ready to rest by the saddle again. It didn't take long before we could saddle him untied, and it really hasn't been much of an issue since then. When we started saddling him untied, if he tried to take off, we just encouraged him to move until he was ready to come back to the center and get the saddle on. I hope that makes sense.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I am in a hurry and so I have not read all of the responses.

IF I were still training for the public and he was brought to me, the very first thing I would do is put 4-way hobbles on him. If he threw himself, I would just keep on training him; because the second thing I would do is lay him down if he did not throw himself.

Laying a horse down or putting 4-way hobbles on a horse 'humbles' a horse more than anything you can do. It would take him off of his 'high horse' immediately. 

When a horse is in 4-ways, you walk up quickly, never baby the horse and start throwing a saddle on him like he is an old dude horse. I would completely desensitize him in the 4-ways. I would walk fast, literally throw the pad on him and do the same with the saddle until he is standing there asleep.

If you use 4-ways with a simple set of front leg hobbles, you can then hobble his front feet any time you want. If he does not stand still, slap on the hobbles.

I really think laying him down is the best option, but that takes an experienced hand. 4-way hobbles are easy to use and anyone can do it. Either way, you need to stop babying him, you need to throw pads and saddles on him and you need to use a sack full of tin cans and a whip or stick with a plastic bag on it and you need to make him like them all.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Paragraphs are your friend. Your thread and subsequent post are impossible to read easily due to no paragraphs.

I would say as much as anything, it is the handling of this horse that is at fault, in that you and horse may never mesh, or no one ever may do well with him.

Sell him, or hire a trainer, but if your skills are causing some or all of this? All the training in the world will not help you with this horse, if you aren't also getting the training.


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## cowgirlextreme1957 (Jul 16, 2012)

I apologize to Palomine for the lack of paragraphs. I rarely spend time on the internet and this is the first forum I have ever joined...I surely did not mean to offend anyone by my lack of proper form.

Thanks for all your advice so far...and Cherie I really appreciate your input...and I feel you are absolutely right. A couple months ago I had front hobbled him because it never seemed like he was afraid...he just seemed obstinate....and he never moved...he never blew or snorted...he stood like a rock. 

But the advice I had gotten in regards to that was it was just the wrong approach.

I remembered some years ago being at a training facility whereas a trainer was laying a horse down because of dominance issues. I continued to follow this horses progress and it was remarkable. I just ordered a dvd from one of the reknowned trainers on this subject but wanted some more input. 

Again, thanks to all!


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

If I was in the OP's situation, I would probably decide to sell the horse to someone who would enjoy that sort of a challenge. I dunno what happened when I turned 40, but the gosh darn ground got hard-I know it isn't me I used to be able to fall over with a certain amount of grace but the closer I get to 50 even the arena sand hurts ;-)

My take anymore is that life is too short to ride a crazy (or in this case a too darn smart) horse. Your mileage many vary, this is just my opinion.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Cowgirl, Bring a pan with lots of goodies and allow him to approach. Move to the rail and circle him. Ideally he should move his hindquarters to keep an eye on you. If he ignores you when you are almost directly behind you, run toward him (not so close to get kicked) waving your arms and making a loud shhhh noise at the same time and scare him off the feed. Stand at the feed and claim it and let him run around. When he stops walk toward him, turn toward the pan and invite him to eat. Repeat this until he will watch you with both eyes as you circle behind him. Why you are doing this: in the herd, the leader has a big job so it is easier and usually more desirable to be a follower. The leader watches for predators and decides when to scram. The follower gets to eat and has to only watch the leader. When you chase him off his food you are showing dominance, yet are fair about it and invite him back to eat. It is most desirable that you can circle, or attempt to circle behind him in either direction, back and forth and his eyes will remain glued on you as he eats. You have just heightened your status as the more dominant animal. This is a good exercise to repeat periodically as a brush up. When you wish to saddle him, in the pen, of course, approach as tho you are saddling a long timer, no pussy footin or he will think something is up. With your back to his shoulder, pad in right hand, swing it gently side to side to set up a rhythm then toss it on his back and ignore his behaviour. If he wants to circle you on the lead, let him. It's better if it's his decision. He'll stop. Do the same with the saddle as you did the pad. Don't try to set the saddle on, swing it up there. I've seen more horses duck away from a lifted saddle than a swinging one.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I would agree with a) there may be some personality issues at play here; and b) having a trainer lay him down, or other would be good. I also have a very dominant gelding, many trainers have tried to put the "fear of God" in him and he basically laughs at them. For me and my current coach (we both work "with" him) he is extremely workmanlike and goes to work every day, without fail. It was not always this way though. It took us a while to figure out what to compromise on, we have a bit of an agreement and I am very aware of where his "line" is. Trust is a huge, huge thing for him, as is respect and not fear.

He had my previous farrier's number on speed dial, and ended up with severe behavioral issues for the farrier. My current farrier (who I hired after previous farrier refused to work on the horse without sedation - I refused to sedate the horse) was getting no where with traditional techniques to get him to simply stand for shoeing (which he had done prior to previous farrier for the first 7 years of his life - all pain was ruled out as well) and layed him down. The horse has tested, very occasionally since he was layed down but a voice aid settles him now.

So, I would highly recommend finding someone that can work with dominant types, and/or get an experienced trainer to lay him down.

Good luck!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I will second what Cherie has suggested, probably laying him down will be your best bet, but it takes an experienced person to do that properly.

Other than that, I would like to mention that some horses are always a bit...strange. My Dad's horse, Pokey, is much like you have described your horse, except without the dominance issues. Pokey has been ridden and used for the better part of 6 years and he still often acts like he has never seen a human when it comes time to catch/saddle him. He'll freak out about being touched when you go to catch him but calms right down as soon as the halter's on. He'll fidget and move around and "blow" when you bring the saddle out but as soon as you toss it up there, he's fine. In spite of all the training that my Dad gave him and how much he's been handled (never _mis_-handled), he is still that way. If you try to force or push the issue in a timeframe that he isn't ready for, he'll tear up himself and everything around him trying to get away. With him, there simply is no "do it over and over until he calms down".

Once you get him caught, get him saddled, or get on his back, he's fine and acts like any good old broke ranch horse. We have just about decided that there is something wrong with him mentally, some form of bipolar disorder or something because there are times when he's perfectly calm and easy to handle, but that switch can flip at any moment. He's never been purposefully dangerous, but handling him is a lot more dangerous than handling any of our other broke horses and you have to _really_ know when to push and when to back off.


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## ioconner (Apr 2, 2011)

I agree with what cherie said as well. I also wonder if you have ever put the saddle and pad on the round pen rail and worked him in there passing by and looking at it until he relaxes? Also every time you saddle do you always ride? 

If it were me, I would round pen him with the saddle and pad on the rail until he relaxes and then saddle him up and do the cinch up enough that the saddle wont slip but is comfortable and leave him like that all day...tied up and not ridden (of course you will have a bucket of water for him.) Do the same they next day and see if you have made any progress. I am a firm believer in tying a horse for teaching respect and patience. 

I would also have a trainer guide you in laying the horse down for the first time for the horses safety but more importantly yours given the way you have described him. I would not try it after watching a dvd. Have the trainer do it first and show you how to do it.


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## chandra1313 (Jul 12, 2011)

cowgirlextreme1957 said:


> A few things I failed to mention in my original post...there have been so many interesting observations concerning this horse.....I have almost 20 years experience with horses, and he is truly the smartest horse I have ever had the pleasure AND frustration of working with. He has llearned the round penning exercises with ease....he is completely respectful on the long line as well as loose....does his turns correctly, yields hind quarters, joins up, follows you anywhere, licking his lips, cocks his back leg.....UNTIL he sees there is a saddle involved. Even if he sees the saddle sitting on a stand you will see an immediate change in attitude. Initially if he seen us saddling other horses he would go as far away in the paddock as possible. He will now come up and see what is going on. Now if we saddle him with other horses standing by he is much better than saddling alone. But he usually always tries to "duck out" and shove that shoulder into you or outright try to body slam you...if you ask him to step over in any way he will just start running backwards.....we go with him and he now always stops instead of running backwards to the next county. Yet if the saddle is not involved he will get out of your space with no problem. I also failed to mention he has the same problem with the pad....yet you can take a tarp, raincoat, plastic bags, any other object and he accepts with no problem. Everyone may not want to believe this, but this horse is so smart he is even aware of the clothing you have on.....if I do not have my jeans and boots on, he is much more complacent about putting the pad and saddle and bridle on....I had to show people for them to believe it. I also own a barepack pad called a Natural Ride....has stirrups and a piece that kays up over the withers and locks in so there is no problem mounting from the ground....I have never rode him in it....you can throw that on him all day long...cinch him up (and by the way he is not cinchy), no blowing, snorting, no ducking out. I believe he knows we are not going anywhere with that bareback pad. He has had consistent riding...we live in northern Michigan and he has well over 750 miles on him since being under saddle in March. The ride may be only 4 miles or may be 30 miles. He is in great condition, seems to truly enjoy being out on the trail. We have made progress in so many areas compared to how he came to us. My take has been that he is too smart for his own good as well as he reminds me of a spoiled juvenile that would throw temper tantrums. He lovez people so much he will leave his hay to come see what is going on or see anyone that stops by. I take him for walks like a dog so everything is not work. I pull him out various times of the day to stand tied and just get groomed...he gets full body massages!!! (lucky horse) He loads in the trailer with no problem, great for farrier, you can use a vacuum or blower on him....he just will not get over the saddling and bridling issues....he can be an angel and then with the flip of a switch he is possessed and acts as if he never seen a human before...we have had him saddle good but when he sees the bridle the switch flips. He iis a horse you cannot get upset with...we do not tie him to saddle and bridle...once he broke the 6x6 off we figured someone was going to get hurt....so we just go with him and he will stop. Has anyone had a horse take this long to accept and settle with saddling and bridling? And I should also mention that if you just walk out with a bridle in your hand into the paddock, he is gone....we have to send him to the round pen for a few exercises and turns and then he comes in and will let me put it on...I just want to eliminate all the drama. He is by nature a blowing and snorting horse...nervous initially about new things but accepts quickly and moves on....except for this. It seems he still has that "screw you, I haven't worked for 5 years, why should I start now?" kind of attitude. This is a mostly love, sometimes hate kind of relationship! I have talked extensively with the trainer (who, btw, is highly recommended) and he is afraid at the end of 30 days I will still have an inconsistent horse. We have taken the horse there for him to work with and show us some things to deal with his inconsistencies, so he has already evaluated this horses personality. I still wonder if he is just a juvenile and needs to mature mentally....or am I beating a dead horse because, as I said, there is something not right between the ears! And for the people that believe you dont buy a horse unless the swirl or whorl between the eyes is centered......HIS IS NOT!! Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
That is too funny the part about the whorl, I was just reading about that today lol Someone had mentioned that to me a long time ago so I remembered it and looked it up ;-)

I went and looked at a mustang a couple of years back, she had everything except for the saddling down. She was very dark so you could see where the hair had turned white on her whither from a ill fitting saddle. The lady had worked with her for over a year and had decided to sell her and that day she kind of blew up while being saddled. It had been a few months since the horse had done that according to the lady. Maybe the previous owners had him in a ill fitting saddle and didn't realise it and it has stuck in his brain.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I stand by my advice. 

Obviously there is something he has against saddles. Perhaps he's sour, perhaps he's nervous.. who knows. But it needs to be investigated by a 3rd party IMOP.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> Obviously there is something he has against saddles. Perhaps he's sour, perhaps he's nervous.. who knows. But it needs to be investigated by a 3rd party IMOP.


While this is how we think, it is not how horses' minds work. It is one reason so many people have so much trouble dealing with difficult horses. They want to make a horse into a 'logical thinker' and they just aren't. OUR logic says that a horse has had a bad experience. just like people making the leap that a head-shy horse has been beaten in the face or head, people think horses develop irrational fears from incidents in their past. This is not always so. Horses are real bad about making the wrong association somewhere along the line and the more they do something, the more they convince themselves that they should do it. 

When you train for the public, you get brought all kinds of horses that have convinced themselves of some irrational fear. It may have started with some insignificant little incident or maybe nothing at all. Once they have decided something is bad, all of the 'normal' ways a horse is desensitized and trained just do not work. You have to do something to break the cycle. This is when 'restraints' like 4-way hobbles and 'laying one down' will somehow let you re-program the horse and be able to 'get into his head'. 

I have taken in horses that were on their last chance and were literally headed to the killer buyer. After using restraints on them, they just turned off the behavior like turning off a light switch. I cannot explain just how it worked, but I can tell that it worked where nothing else had ever worked. Some of these horses had owners that had spent months and even years trying to convince them that they were not going to hurt them or that a certain object or situation was not going to kill them. Nothing worked until they were re-programed with restraints or laying them down. 

The recent article published in the Western Horseman is the best technical description of what happens in a horse's mind when it is laid down. All I have ever known about it is that is also works in an illogical way. It works far beyond what we logical thinkers think it should. It is like one horse is laid down and a different horse gets back up when YOU let it get back up.


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## simplysouthern (Dec 7, 2009)

If I were you I would probably let a trainer work with him for a little while and give you an opinion. It is quite possible the two of you just really don't click or something about your program just isn't working for this horse. 

In terms of when to quit - a friend and I were discussing this the other day due to some issues with her gelding. We decided that its time to give up when you start making excuses not to go to the barn and/or ride because the problems with a specific horse have taken the joy out of it for you.


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## longshot (May 30, 2012)

Cherie said:


> The recent article published in the Western Horseman is the best technical description of what happens in a horse's mind when it is laid down. All I have ever known about it is that is also works in an illogical way. It works far beyond what we logical thinkers think it should. It is like one horse is laid down and a different horse gets back up when YOU let it get back up.


That article was awesome Cherie! Loved the insight on how the fear thresholds move.. Good stuff!

As far as this case, there are horses that are too far gone to help, some that have some kind of physical/genetic issue that can make them unstable and dangerous, and then there are the "Damien" horses. Not sure what their problem is but they are possesed of evil..lol
In my 44 years I have seen maybe 3 of these horses that just aren't worth the effort, or simply cannot be worked with.. and one of those was iffy, so call it 2.
Horses cannot be reasoned with, they cannot be negotiated with, they must be dominated. The natural horsemanship trainers do us one disservice (now put the bricks down, I train using these principles) in that the partnership they talk about is decidely unequal.. when most folks hear "Partnership" they think of two equals that bring equal things to the table. This simply isn't so, training by definition is "getting a horse to do something it wouldn't do naturally". 
So the horse it an unequal partner, it doesn't want to carry a rider all over creation. It never asked to pull a buggy, get a shot, and be sprayed for flies. Has anyone ever seen a horse try to convey that it wants shoes nailed to its feet?
Our equine "partners" get no say so in the direction of travel, the length of time we work them, the day we choose to work them or how far they have to run. This is, other than the various implements we attach to them, the very way herd dynamics works. It is the dominant horse that decides all these things, and the alpha is only occasionally challenged. So we must become dominant and the horse must submit. 
Unquestioned authority will be a foundation you can build on to get horses to do amazing things, but just like that cranky old herd mare, you have to be willing to go to some great lengths to establish the heirarchy. Most times this is simple pressure/release, but there are times when overwhelming fear, and yes even pain are the motivators of submission. 
It is ridiculous to believe that horse will not trust you if you inflict pain.. ever seen a herd member that mistrusted the alpha? I assure you they have inflicted pain. 
Now don't think I am giving license to beat a horse into submission, and I'm not saying that inflicting pain overcomes confusion, you must be clear in your instructions, but folks you must be dominant.. and be that unquestionably so.


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## pattieh (Jul 17, 2012)

Hi. I really like the advice given here. So get busy. we have miles to go! Pattie


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## longshot (May 30, 2012)

Welcome Pattie! There are lots of great folks around here and free with what ought to be expensive advice.. Hang around and you'll cover the distance much quicker than you could alone!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I have the same issue with a filly I've owned from the time she was about 6 months old. She's no 3 and no better. I have her on Craigs List for $350 and I have a WHOLE lot more in her than that. The trainer sent her home last week because she was going backwards in her training. For 30 days she seemed to make some progress and then.........pffffffffffft. Since that's basically the path she's followed here at home, I went and got her and put her up for sale. She pretty much knocks me down or injures me every time I handle her, and after 3 years, I've come to the conclusion, it's not me it's her. Time for her to go. If she doesn't sell by the end of the month, she can go to the auction, I'm done.

There are way too many nice horses out there to waste time on one who doesn't want to get on the same page as you.


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## longshot (May 30, 2012)

And there Dream is the key, it is about you the owner/trainer.. when are you finished? It just doesn't matter how much potential a horse has (or doesn't have) It all boils down to when have you had enough.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

longshot said:


> And there Dream is the key, it is about you the owner/trainer.. when are you finished? It just doesn't matter how much potential a horse has (or doesn't have) It all boils down to when have you had enough.


That's it in a nutshell! 

When this filly arrived the first thing she did was double barrel kick me and hang me over the top of a 5 foot pipe corral panel. My sane side said I should call the transporter back and load her up and send her back where she came. My stubborn side said that I'd waited 3 years for this filly and she just needed love, handling, consistancy and training. A couple of friends who met this filly when she first got here encouraged me to get rid of her by whatever means because they felt she was dangerous. I didn't agree and kept trying. Well........3 years later and nothing has approved appreciably......My sane side is now saying, "I told you so" and now I'm listening.


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## longshot (May 30, 2012)

Yup.. had a TB mare that prolly could have been a much better horse. She is now someone else's project cuz I just didn't like her well enough to put forth the effort. Plus I'm just partial to QH's. Gotta commend you though, putting 3 years into a filly that I would have been tempted to shoot after the double barrel kick.. kudos to your stubborn patience...lol


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Just because the horse doesn't listen to you, or submit to what you want...doesn't mean it's a bad horse. Just not the right horse for you. Geesh, they aren't vehicles, they're living, breathing, THINKING creatures who have their own opinion about things. Sad. IMHO


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Personally, I think you'll see a totally changed attitude if you lay this horse down. I don't think he really wants to be dominate, but doesn't know what else to do. I think he's insecure. No horse who is truly secure in their dominant position feels the need to reinforce it as often as yours does…yours run the dog **** out of your herd every time he's in with them…I'm the boss, I'm the boss, I'm the boss, I'm the boss. That is not a secure "leader". I think he's been a horse whose been alone and that's why he's better alone. I also think that is why he pays attention to every little thing you do. I think laying this horse down will take the insecurity out of him - it'll take the worry out of him. Sometimes what a horse thinks is going to happen is much worse than what actually does happen…he needs to know that.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Army wife said:


> Just because the horse doesn't listen to you, or submit to what you want...doesn't mean it's a bad horse. Just not the right horse for you. Geesh, they aren't vehicles, they're living, breathing, THINKING creatures who have their own opinion about things. Sad. IMHO


And if my vehicle was as unreliable and unpredictable as this mare is, I'd send it to the junk yard. This mare is lucky I didn't shoot her when she double barreled me, but I couldn't breathe for long enough that I cooled down in the meantime.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> And if my vehicle was as unreliable and unpredictable as this mare is, I'd send it to the junk yard. This mare is lucky I didn't shoot her when she double barreled me, but I couldn't breathe for long enough that I cooled down in the meantime.


Wrong place at the wrong time I guess...A bullet sure is a permanent solution to what could be a temporary problem. Have you tried to let anyone else work with this horse for any sufficient amount of time in the (3?) years you've had her?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Army wife said:


> Wrong place at the wrong time I guess...A bullet sure is a permanent solution to what could be a temporary problem. Have you tried to let anyone else work with this horse for any sufficient amount of time in the (3?) years you've had her?


Army Wife, you've evidently missed where I said that the pro trainer I sent her to, sent her home as not responding to training. Yes, I've actually had folks out here to the property, a friend of mine is a good trainer and met her as a 6 month old filly and looked me right in the eye and told me to get rid of her and refused to get anywhere near her. When I put the ad up for her, she sent me a quick e-mail telling me how happy she was that I was finally getting rid of the 'crazy thing' and that maybe she'd spend less on get well cards for me now. 

Everyone I know, that has met this mare, has been on me for the 3 years to move her along or put her down and I kept refusing. I felt with kindness and consistancy she would come along. After 3 years of no apparent progress, I sent her out for training to a man who:

A/is a polar opposite of me, in case it was a personality thing
B/is a pro trainer with over 30 years of experience
C/is known for gentle, consistant, patient, non-confrontational training of both horse and owner/rider

In the first 30 days, though extremely nervous and spooky she didn't do anything too crazy and we thought she might come around. In the 2nd 30, she went backwards and became very aggressive toward the horses on either side of her, tried to kick his stalls down to the point she made her legs sore and scared his daughter while she was filling her water tub, to the point the daughter refused to go anywhere near her. The kids at the barn would walk AROUND the barn to avoid passing near her stall. 

The trainer finally called me and told me to come get her and that he was just wasting my money if he kept her there. He has 2 other horses of mine, 1 for breaking and 1 for just some tune up work, and they are really progressing and I couldn't be happier. The one who's there for saddle breaking is a very different horse from this mare but to just show how well horses do under this guy, in 12 days he's made more progress than this mare in 45 AND he's a young stallion. 

I put the mare up for sale, cheap and with full disclosure. I have her sold to another trainer who thinks time may be the issue and is going to work with her over several years and use her as a broodie also. I'm quite content with this outcome. I lost my SHIRT on this mare, but that sometimes happens. If he can give her a good home and bring her around, I'll be tickled pink.

Sorry, didn't mean to jack this thread or write a novel, but I didn't want anyone to think I'd sold her for dogmeat or just sent her to some unsuspecting soul without a concern for everyone's safety.


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

You know, sometimes they are just broken. I hate to use a human analogy as anybody who's read my "few" posts would know I usually don't equate human emotion/psyche to horses. But in this case I think it's appropriate. Sometimes humans are just broken. For whatever reason. Not wired right in the head or whatever. No sense of right/wrong, you get the point.

Sometimes the demons or fears or emotional baggage are way too deep and way too buried to make them right. They are now nothing more than a danger to anyone around.

*I* believe you made the right decision, Dreamcatcher. You went above and beyond what most would have.


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## cowgirlextreme1957 (Jul 16, 2012)

I again say thanks to all the good advice....and I certainly can relate to Dreamcatcher. 

I would have to look back at my thread but I do believe I mentioned I had been working with a professional trainer....we have already had the horse to his place. What I have not mentioned is the trainer knows the sire of this horse....and he has the SAME mind. And we all should be aware of genetics.....there are those that breed animals indiscriminately for beauty with no regards to BRAINS. You can't ride "pretty". This horse is one of the prettiest animals conformation-wise....but it is very possible the apple didn't fall far from the tree being his sire possesses the same traits. I was simply trying to get advice to exhaust all options. I believe I also mentioned the trainer feels I am wasting my time putting 30 days training on him because he is not "right-witted". And this trainer is highly respected in my area.

My plans are to lay this horse down.....I felt strongly about that based on what I had seen in the past....I will get professional help to do so....but it may be a couple weeks as I became a grandma today and will be helping my daughter recover from a c-section....my obsession with diguring this animal out has been redirected with this new little bundle of joy!

And Patty, when I get home be ready with the super duty velcro because we have lots of ground to cover to get this boy ready for the criss-cross MTRA ride...he will not buck me off again!


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Dreamcatcher, have you ever thought about laying down your unruly mare? Or did you think of that before you sold her? Maybe this other trainer could do it and get a whole new horse...


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## longshot (May 30, 2012)

Folks, this is just an old cowboy's opinion, but the moment the words "When should I give up on this horse?" are uttered, the person has mostly already done so. Not a blanket statement and I realize there are exceptions. My answer to that question is ALWAYS "right now" 

You will never hear this fella try to talk someone out of getting rid of a horse. I try not to talk them into it either but that has happened. 

Pushing beyond your "give up" point is really unwise as the frustration really begins to manifest. If asked for advice, I give the best I have, but asked if a horse should be sent down the road.. I may say that is totally up to you but my inclination is always yep. 

And knowing the fertilizer storm this will kick up, in this particular case, after going to the lengths that Dream went to try and get this horse trained, I would probably (this is me not advice to anyone else) put it down. I have a rule for myself that I will never sell a horse that I believe to be unsafe. I couldn't live with the knowledge that a problem horse I passed on hurt someone else. If I just don't want to train the horse but see that it can be.. sell it.. give it away.. but if Damien shows his face, the horse goes down. Maybe overly harsh or cold, but folks, horses are animals and people are not...


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Army wife said:


> Dreamcatcher, have you ever thought about laying down your unruly mare? Or did you think of that before you sold her? Maybe this other trainer could do it and get a whole new horse...


She was laid down permanently this afternoon. She had been sold, just waiting for the new owner to pick up and pay for her. While at the trainer's I think I mentioned that she tried to kick her stall down? Evidently she kicked something that gave her a very small puncture wound into her pastern joint. I had been stall resting and cold hosing and had told the soon to be new owner of the lameness, btw. When she wasn't better today, I didn't feel right about sending her on without a definitive diagnosis, so took her in to OSU. She had a chip fracture and a bone/joint infection. In a human, they would amputate that part but in a horse they surgically try to repair it if the owner is willing to spend the money. Based on her past behaviour the decision was made to humanely euthanize her. R.I.P. little mare.

Army Wife, this mare had been laid down in training, and on occasion would even remain laying down in her stall for a pet. And on other days, she'd totally not want to be touched. When I described all this to the vet, while we were discussing her diagnosis/treatment/prognosis, he sad, "You know that there is mental illness in horses, right?". He agreed that putting her down was the best/safest solution.


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## longshot (May 30, 2012)

Sorry Dream,
tough thing to do, especially after all the work and time. You are to be commended for making the tough choice and I tip my hat to ya. Not anything to celebrate but I admire you.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Geesh, I'm so sorry. Never heard of mental illness in horses. Guess it makes sense. I took my mare up there about a month and a half ago (oregon state univ.) Not sure we're talking about the same "O" lol they are great though. I am sorry you had to do that.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Army wife said:


> Geesh, I'm so sorry. Never heard of mental illness in horses. Guess it makes sense. I took my mare up there about a month and a half ago (oregon state univ.) Not sure we're talking about the same "O" lol they are great though. I am sorry you had to do that.


 
Thanks y'all. I feel sorry for the poor horse. After the vet and I got through talking about her behavioral issues, we couldn't decide if she was ADHD, Bipolar or if it was just the "voices" in her head...but that's what led to the mental illness comment from him. I've been around horses for 40+ years and never had one that the only consistant thing was.....inconsistancy. 

Now she's at peace and I don't have to worry about her hurting me or anyone else again, so I think it ended up being for the best. 

AW, in my case OSU is Oklahoma State University, their vet school is AWESOME.


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## pattieh (Jul 17, 2012)

Hi all. Just a word from a life long horse owner and lover. We feed them, we groom them, we worm them, we bed them down in a clean barn we take them to the vet for vacinations. We bathe them, we spray them to keep the flies away we feed supplements for thier feet, for energy. We make sure they have a salt block, and shade from the sun. I go so far as many of you do I am sure to have a huge fan for them to stand infront of on hot day in the barn. We apply liniment to thier muscles after working. We even take them to the dentist. Oh and the farrier comes on schedule every 6wks to take care of thier feet. Now is it too much to ask for them to do some work!!!! I spoke to a vet at Uof M last week and he said thier are alot of good horses out there who deserve a good home, why would you want to keep a bad one? Just a thought I was having and not intended for anyone in particular on this forum. I have kept my share of underserving ones kind of like children I know. LOL


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

"he said thier are alot of good horses out there who deserve a good home, why would you want to keep a bad one?"

I know you didn't mean that personally and I didn't take it that way. Here's my poor horse's story. I was a fan of her father's and he is gorgeous. I saw her brother when he was born and he is gorgeous. I told her breeder if she ever had a filly just like the brother, I wanted her. So....3 years later, she gets the filly and contacts me. I bought her, she was even prettier than her father and brother. This filly was allegedly imprinted when born. First thing she did when she got here was to drop kick me over a pipe panel, ooops, guess she wasn't so imprinted. 

I thought things would improve and started working with her daily. Friends came by and said, "She's a nutcase get rid of her before she kills you.". I thought I could work her out of it, I've worked with some pretty tough horses. Abuse, starvation, off the track, straight out of an Arabian Halter barn, you name it. They all came around. 

After I had her for about a year, I got my foot crushed and was off of it for about a year, so she didn't get handled. When I went back out to the barn, she had regressed and was terrorizing the barn help. I contacted her breeder to see if she'd ever had problems that I didn't know about and boy, did I get some undisclosed info.....and no she didn't want the filly back to keep me from putting her down. OOOOKKKKKK, well, I still didn't want to give up. I kind of felt like since I'd been laid up for a year, I 'owed' it to her to work with her some more. Sooo, one of my old broodies got injured and we took her to be put down, a gate got left open, the stallion and the filly got together and VOILA we have a preggo mare. Now I gotta keep her until the baby is born at least. 

Baby is born, she's a good mum and so I let her nurse the baby for 4 months. I weaned the baby and then after mom had some time to dry up, I sent her off to a trainer as a last resort. The rest of the story is all in this thread. 

I learned several things from this little escapade. 

1) I will never keep a horse that shows agression from the git go again. I should have called the hauler and told him to come back and take her back to the breeder the minute she kicked me. 

2) I never need another horse from outside my program again. I know how I handle my stallion, my mares and my foals. Nuff said. 

3) There truly is mental illness in horses and it's hereditary. Of course, if that's not disclosed, you won't know the hereditary part, but I found out. 

4) If a horse seems to be just waaaaaaaay over the top with fearfulness and inability to accept routine schooling.....move 'em on early in the game. I allowed this mare to take up so much of my time that my other, nicer horses suffered in their training because of it. Instead of having experienced, good trail and show horses, they're still green because I used everything I had on this mare. Not fair to anyone. 

Bottom line, there are a whole lotta nice horses out there, I breed some of them. I don't care how gorgeous and made to order one seems, beauty is as beauty does. If it's a nut case, it ain't pretty no matter what it looks like.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

May she rest in peace


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## pattieh (Jul 17, 2012)

Hey Dreamcatcher, This horse wasnt related to Cantanier out of Gondolier and Cantarina? I bought a gelding out of him that was crazy. I paid 4200 for him and paid someone 200$to take him!! I gave him 5yrs of my life and many tears before I told my husband get rid of him or I will shoot him myself. No one wanted him for free so I upped the offer. Best money I ever spent. Now I still love the arabian breed. The best horses I ever owned were Bask bred arabs. They lived here till they were so old we had to put them down. I didnt really know what people meant when they said Arabs were crazy until I owned one that was.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

pattieh said:


> Hey Dreamcatcher, This horse wasnt related to Cantanier out of Gondolier and Cantarina? I bought a gelding out of him that was crazy. I paid 4200 for him and paid someone 200$to take him!! I gave him 5yrs of my life and many tears before I told my husband get rid of him or I will shoot him myself. No one wanted him for free so I upped the offer. Best money I ever spent. Now I still love the arabian breed. The best horses I ever owned were Bask bred arabs. They lived here till they were so old we had to put them down. I didnt really know what people meant when they said Arabs were crazy until I owned one that was.


 
No she wasn't. And she was 1/2 Arab, not purebred. But loose screw.....oh yeah, maybe even a missing one.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> No she wasn't. And she was 1/2 Arab, not purebred. But loose screw.....oh yeah, maybe even a missing one.


What was the other half? And can I ask how her foal is doing? Does it seem to have her craziness?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Army wife said:


> What was the other half? And can I ask how her foal is doing? Does it seem to have her craziness?


 
AW, she was 1/2 APHA. Her foal is doing really well. I had 3 this year and out of the 3 the 2 fillies are the sweetest and easiest to handle and Te, her filly, is the first one to come up and get a butt scritch. When we're teaching something new, she can be a BIT like her mother but instead of going up, up, up, up and out of control, she panics then calms down. For instance, for the first time haltering and just having me on the end of a lead rope, I take them into a 12 X 12 stall and we halter and then put the foal trainer on them. The upset depends on the foal. She got very upset, ran all over the stall and then stood like a rock. I've noticed where others will just run, run, run or try to drag me, she will freeze and then is kind of 'stuck'. If I give her a few minutes she's calms down and I help her get 'unstuck' either by giving her behind a push or shoving on her shoulder to move her front feet. Once her feet get moving, she goes on and generally is fine with whatever the lesson for the day is. So, right now we go in the stall, get brushed, halter and put on the foal trainer and then we leave the stall and go for a short walk, 2 or 3 laps around the barn. If she gets stuck I give her a minute or 2 to think and then we move on and as soon as we do 1 whole lap without losing it, we go back to the barn and her friends. 

The other 2 are working on the same thing, they were all born within days of each other, and their MO is to take off at the run and see if they can get away from me. Because of the foal trainer and how it wraps around their body and doesn't put pressure on their little necks, I can wrap the lead around my hips, dig in my heels and kind of sit down on 'em and they come to a halt. Once I walk up and rub on 'em and say, "Let's go" they walk on. NONE of them lose their marbles and rear, strike or kick like the mare did. 

The sire is my Arabian stallion who is sooooo laid back I could put a 2 year old on his back and he'd walk around like a dime a ride pony. All 3 of these babies are a lot like him. Te is perhaps, the MOST like him of the 3. Hallelujah! She's really a cutie too.


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## Amberish2002 (May 26, 2012)

Question: If he bolted through/over a fence when he saw a halter, or when approached with something in your hands, and does not like a saddle, have you checked on: 
1. If he was ever beaten? I don't mean made to be submissive, I mean abuse by someone who beat the living tar out of him with a foreign object held in the hands? A horse who will run through a fence to get away is not just smart, it's out of its mind scared. 

2. Does your saddle fit him? Are you too big for him?


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Cowgirl _ I sat and wrote a response to your request as to how to redirect a bolshie but intelligent gelding. Then I read on and found you were soon to be a grandma - so I binned the response. You don't need a horse like you have described in your life right now. Find him a good but knowledgeable home but make sure they know about his little problems. 

- however before I let him go, I would do a bute test - ie fill him up with painkiller and see if he becomes more amenable - if he does then check for both ulcers. and/or a kissing spine. I'd also ask the vet to check if he is a rig - ie the castration did not go as it should have done. 
I'd have his teeth checked by an equine dentist and then try a hackamore bridle.

But I would definitely try to eliminate pain from the equation.

However if the problem seems to remain as behavioural - then in your 
circumstances, I'd let him go to a good but knowledgable home who thought they could cope. 
Intelligent but dominant horses can be good for competition in dressage and other specialities - if you can ride them. And at 5yo, give the boy a little slack - but show him some discipline. (not cruelty).

Congrats, Grandma
BG


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## cowgirlextreme1957 (Jul 16, 2012)

Wanted everyone to know my "problem child) is in the hands of a professional trainer. He laid him down yesterday...it became very apparent just how dominant this horse is. I have left him there for a week...the plan is to lay him down 4 times a day...he said I will not believe the difference in 4 days. And he said he will have a good idea after working with him whether he has a mental problem.

It only makes sense that horses can have mental issues...I have had dogs I have rescued that had OCD, separation anxiety, etc and dogs that needed prozac.

A comment was made that if I had to ask when to give up, then I already have. Not true. I came here to seek advice as to what on earth I can do to get into this horses head...to make sure I have not missed anything...to explore every option because I love this horse...I have no problem letting him go if he is not the horse for me...however this horse likes me as well...we go for casual walks. He goes down to the creek with me and we go for walks up the creek. When I come out of the house he will leave his hay every time to come get attention. When you pull in in a vehicle he does the same....he is truly a people horse...until it comes to saddling/bridling. Once the saddle is ON he returns to a people horse.

Sometimes he gets saddled and just stands tied for a few hours. Sometimes its just saddling and going for a casual walk (not on him). It is not all about work. And I will also mention he stands like a rock for mounting....from either side.

I will explore the bute thing....give it to him for a few days and see if there is a difference. Saddle fit is fine. His teeth are good...he was just to the dentist...ulcers....I have no clue. Seems I would see signs of something else other than when the horse sees a saddle. 

The concern, again, is when the horse flips this "switch". He did it one of the times he was laid down....he got up and was standing there and suddenly it looked like no one was home...his eyes changed completely.....an evil look comes over him. Everyone seen it...we videod it...it is crazy....or he is!!!! It took about a minute and he returned. Put his head down and licked his lips.

Will keep everyone posted on the progress! Or lack thereof!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

I have said more than once that the role of a horse in a human's life is not just to wear a saddle and a human ride it. A role for a horse can be to be the recipient of a human's affection. You openly declare your 'love' for this 'naughty' fellow - and why not. 

But from the description you give, the horse has a problem. I'd not worry about 'his evil eye' but I would worry about him putting his head between his legs and bucking. He wants his rider off and pronto and what is more he knows how to do it.

If he has a physical pain problem then he needs a horse doctor of some sorts - if he has a screw loose then he needs either a horse psycho or a bullet.

The problem for you is that human you and equine him speak a different language and so far I have never found a dictionary to accurately provide an accurate interpretation of the means of communication.

For spasmodic outbursts of bad behaviour never eliminate pain and the fear of it in a horse. Fear of pain is what in olden times the horse wranglers used as a weapon to control horses. Some folks still do.

The problem for the caring owner is often to locate and then eliminate the pain - or the fear of it.


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

Wishing you the best of luck!


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## usahorsejobs (Jul 24, 2012)

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned above - I couldn't see it in any of the comments - but search amazon etc for a book called "Horses Never Lie" - I found it invaluable in getting my head straight and understanding the problems one of my horses was having (quite similar).

Jane x


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

could you post the video that you're talking about?


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

In the Uk, you'll find at some specialised tack stores, a 'Daisy' strap which runs over the horses poll and is attached to the brow band and at the other end, the rings on the saddle. It is designed for young kids to be used on ponies which will stop to graze the grassy banks, I have seen a heavier version used on horses which have a tendency to buck. 
The effect of the strap is to exert pressure on the poll if the horse attempts to
reach down to the ground. To buck most horses will bend their heads down and try to jerk the reins out of the rider's hands and at the same time they will round their backs.

As with most corrective leather tack, it is preferable to train/cure the horse so that the use of such leather ware is not necessary but sometimes that is easier said that done.


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## LKC (Jul 18, 2012)

I dont know about your training and if that is or is not part of the problem. However, when you become uncomfortable with being around him or riding him and other help is not easing the uncomfortable feeling, it may be time for him to go to someone with more experience. I've been there. I had a gelding I raised for his 10 years and he was always a testy, semi aggressive horse but I was experienced enough to not be intimidated and to handle him. However, for some reason, after 10 years he suddenly became extremely aggressive to the point where he was knocking other horses on the ground, he had started rearing and bolting (he had never bucked or reared a day in his life before) and charging. I started to feel uncomfortable with this horse because he had become extremely unpredictable that I decided it was time to sell him for mine and my young families safety even though I was very attached as I raised him. Point is, horses are very good at seeking out riders weaknesses and using it to their advantage so if you have this many problems now and you are not able to get things under control and feel comfortable with him with the help of a trainer, you need to consider other options for the safety of both you. Wish you the best of luck with him!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

BTW, I carry a thick rope, the yacht type. Any horse that tried to shoulder me would feel the sting of that rope on his neck. I'd whack him hard. If he's in a round pen he has no where to go so when he stops, just fetch him and start again with the pad, rope in readiness. Usually a second time is all it takes but it may take a third. You have just made it clear to him that you call the shots, not him.


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## cowgirlextreme1957 (Jul 16, 2012)

A week ago I wrote a very long, detailed update on the outcome of laying down my horse. When I got done and hit the post button.....poof....it was gone. 
So now I will keep it simple.
The results of laying this horse down were absolutely astounding. It was not until the 3rd time when we laid down one horse and another got up....he was a tough nut to crack....but I have such a calm horse now. 
I want to thank all that supported this idea. I felt all along in my heart that this was what needed to be done. Many thought we had a personality clash....I never felt that way....this horse liked me except for this horrible attitude about saddling/bridling. I did learn as well that no matter what you cannot carry a saddle from a long distance towards him to saddle him. But as long as you get the saddle to the hitching post before the horse, or saddle him at the rear of the trailer where the saddle is sitting nearby, he has no problem accepting it. Whether someone ran at him and threw something at him, or flogged him with something, we do not know. But having the saddle in place on a stand before I get the horse out is a small sacrifice for the kind of ride he gives me out on the trail. 
I continue to lay this horse down daily, as advised by the trainer, until I feel that the respect is deeply instilled in him. He now will go down as soon as I just pick up a foot....I first tell him to bow.....he kneels down on his knees...then I tell him sit...he stays in an upright sitting position....then I tell him down. I can take him from the bow to the down and bypass the sit. He is very compliant, and lays there until I tell him up. 
I had it in me to not give up...and I am so glad I didn't. Again, my deepest thanks to all your help!
And the new grandson is doing great!!!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

cowgirlextreme1957 said:


> A week ago I wrote a very long, detailed update on the outcome of laying down my horse. When I got done and hit the post button.....poof....it was gone.
> So now I will keep it simple.
> The results of laying this horse down were absolutely astounding. It was not until the 3rd time when we laid down one horse and another got up....he was a tough nut to crack....but I have such a calm horse now.
> I want to thank all that supported this idea. I felt all along in my heart that this was what needed to be done. Many thought we had a personality clash....I never felt that way....this horse liked me except for this horrible attitude about saddling/bridling. I did learn as well that no matter what you cannot carry a saddle from a long distance towards him to saddle him. But as long as you get the saddle to the hitching post before the horse, or saddle him at the rear of the trailer where the saddle is sitting nearby, he has no problem accepting it. Whether someone ran at him and threw something at him, or flogged him with something, we do not know. But having the saddle in place on a stand before I get the horse out is a small sacrifice for the kind of ride he gives me out on the trail.
> ...


That is cool. I always wondered about the technique and the effects. Thanks for letting us know how it went for you.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I'm really glad it worked well for you!


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

yay!! good to know


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Cowgirl
If ever you get the chance watch Kenneth Branagh's film of Henry Vth.
The star of the film is really the one horse - a Thorobred named Klute - which played all the horsey roles in the film. When they wanted another horse they simply dyed Klute a different colour.

Klute had been trained by his owner my friend Dereck to fall on demand.
Whenever Klute was asked he got down and laid down. He would even go down from a slow canter - if a hole was dug to soften the impact.

But it calls for special expertise and a close bond with the horse.
It seems you have both. Well done.


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## cowgirlextreme1957 (Jul 16, 2012)

I would like to update everyone even though a lot of time has gone by. I had mentioned that I wanted to take this horse on the Michigan Trail Riders fall Criss Cross ride, which is a total of about 520 miles and 23 consecutive days of riding. Well, WE DID IT!!!! There were, I believe, 23 of us that made the whole ride....and my horse was absolutely awesome. He had one small glitch along the way when we had 7 miles of intense busy highway riding when he became overwhelmed because there was just no release of pressure.....I borrowed someones front yard and laid him down for 15 minutes until his breathing slowed down and he relaxed....he got up and finished the last 2 miles of busy highway with no problem. 
Again I can't thank the people that supported laying this horse down enough.....it has been so remarkable, such an amazing learning experience, and best of all I didn't give up and I now have one special animal that is absolutely PRICELESS!!!


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## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

Downunder Horsemanship TV


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Cowgirl, it is more now the bond you have with the horse after such a lifelong memory of a long distance ride together.

Well done - give your Boy a juicy pear from me.

Barry G


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Western v English
I used to think that the key difference between the two traditions was to do with saddle, length of rein and custom - nowadays I am more convinced that the difference lies in the way in which the horse is used by the rider.
In working cattle the cowboy rides his horse for a day's work - be the rider fresh or tired
In English competition the horse is ridden maybe for an hour a day's schooling and then (hopefully) put back in the pasture with his mates - the other horses.
In English pleasure riding, the horse may not see his owner from weekend to weekend and will spend five days out in a paddock.

The husbandry regimes must play a signficant part in the relationship the horse develops with its owner. 

Maybe long distance trail riding over several days - even weeks- must bring the relationship between horse and rider closer, regardless of the design of the tack. Anyway for long distance riding a lightweight western saddle can be the more comfortable for the rider's aching butt.


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## LauraJo (Oct 7, 2012)

DimSum said:


> I dunno what happened when I turned 40, but the gosh darn ground got hard-I know it isn't me I used to be able to fall over with a certain amount of grace but the closer I get to 50 even the arena sand hurts ;-)
> 
> My take anymore is that life is too short to ride a crazy (or in this case a too darn smart) horse. Your mileage many vary, this is just my opinion.


I am with Dim Sum. I am only 30 and I've already hit that point where the arena sand is too solid a surface to repeatedly collide with, and I am not an arena rider! 

I am also of the mind that I believe this super smart horse is dreadfully bored.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Barry Godden said:


> Western v English
> I used to think that the key difference between the two traditions was to do with saddle, length of rein and custom - nowadays I am more convinced that the difference lies in the way in which the horse is used by the rider.
> In working cattle the cowboy rides his horse for a day's work - be the rider fresh or tired
> In English competition the horse is ridden maybe for an hour a day's schooling and then (hopefully) put back in the pasture with his mates - the other horses.
> In English pleasure riding, the horse may not see his owner from weekend to weekend and will spend five days out in a paddock.


You can't say things like this and not cover every aspect. Not every English rider treats their horse like a delicate flower, not every Western rider does ranch work. I'm an English pleasure rider (I don't show) but we train in Dressage and jumping, do obstacles and trail ride. I'm with my horse 5-6 days a week and he is in the pasture all 7 because he's field boarded P sometimes he's worked hard, sometimes long but easy.

Long trips like that really allow a horse and rider to become a team. Each learns to build confidence in the other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Cowgirl, when you carry the saddle your outline, the way the horse sees you, changes. (think camera a little out of focus). When you place it first, he is seeing is as nothing to fear and is approaching more on his terms. It doesn't always have to be "my way" and it's great you are ok with this "quirk" by allowing him some input.


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