# Duchess rear and acting up video.



## Lucara (Apr 5, 2008)

Okay so here are the video of Duchess acting up when asked to trot. Today we actually didn't have too many issues but the rearing makes me pretty uncomfortable.

Now, I know my riding pretty well sucks but I've not been riding for very long and she was sold to me as a dead broke, child safe horse.

The first part of the video I tried to walk and trot her around as if she were on a lunge line. If shes near another horse she instantly tries to turn in and go after the other horse. No idea why. 
Then I tried trotting her one way, having her do a few steps and stopping. Then I trotted her the other direction.

The only reason the reins were drawn up so much was because I was asking her to trot. If you don't have constant contact with the reins you'll end up galloping within a few seconds after trot.







This is the one where she rears/bucks. Now, she was actually doing the best trotting work shes done before in this video right before shes rears up on me. Again, I apologize for my lack of skills.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

The rearing/bucking is probably her way of throwing a hissy fit. Dead broke may be "as long as she gets what she wants" which is probably to go and say hi to her horse buddy.

Ice is the same way, so I usually work alone in the arena so that he focuses on me and not on the other horses (that he really just wants to annoy--no lie he will walk RIGHT up to another horses butt and start nibbling on their tail like its not a problem at all)

What were you doing RIGHT before she stopped and had her fit? You may have had too much contact in her opinion, but if your seat was asking for her to go then she was probably going to only way she could go, up. Does she do the same thing on a lunge line/free lunging, or is it just when you're sitting on her? If that's the case there might be issues with her back, especially if shes only been used to carry around small children.


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## Fire Eyes (May 13, 2009)

_I'm pretty sure she's not rearing, it more looks like she's hunching her back and trying to get into a better position to buck. If she was going to rear I'm sure she'd throw herself higher, quicker.
Rearing is normally a horse trying to get the rider off, and it's willing to risk toppling over to do so, this just looks like she's slightly uncomfortable, annoyed that she's not getting what she wants or even confused with what you're asking her, and she's just doing a small buck due to that. She's not trying to throw you, she's just trying to show her annoyance.
_


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## Lucara (Apr 5, 2008)

No she carried a guy whose heavier than me with no issue. She can trot with me on her back when she throws her fit and takes off with out any issues. I almost think its a temperament. We ARE going to show the video to the farrier, vet and previous owners and she will receive a full vet check to ensure that nothing is physically wrong that we can't see.

Today she actually did well, which is why I don't think its a physical issue. She had a couple steps of her spanish fit-walk and then she hopped right into trot without any issue.

RIGHT before she stopped I was posting which is why I landed so far on her neck. I realize my hands aren't very steady yet but again, that was the point of getting a dead-broke horse. I can ride John who is green broke and off the track without any issues whatsoever.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

She looks sore-and ****y about it. If you can afford it, I think having a chiropractor out would really help. Having a trainer give her a "tune up" would help too.


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## Lucara (Apr 5, 2008)

Fire Eyes said:


> _I'm pretty sure she's not rearing, it more looks like she's hunching her back and trying to get into a better position to buck. If she was going to rear I'm sure she'd throw herself higher, quicker.
> Rearing is normally a horse trying to get the rider off, and it's willing to risk toppling over to do so, this just looks like she's slightly uncomfortable, annoyed that she's not getting what she wants or even confused with what you're asking her, and she's just doing a small buck due to that. She's not trying to throw you, she's just trying to show her annoyance.
> _


Personally. I think it has a lot to do with her getting annoyed. Her ears are pinned and tail swishing almost the whole time. It doesn't happen when your just walking her but if you ask her to trot the ears go back instantly.


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## Fire Eyes (May 13, 2009)

Lucara said:


> Personally. I think it has a lot to do with her getting annoyed. Her ears are pinned and tail swishing almost the whole time. It doesn't happen when your just walking her but if you ask her to trot the ears go back instantly.


_
My horse does that too, when you first ask to trot he acts insulted and tries to pigroot (he can't buck), but then relaxes after a minute or two.
If it was me, I'd get a trainer for her. Get her to behave a bit better._


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## Lucara (Apr 5, 2008)

1dog3cats17rodents said:


> She looks sore-and ****y about it. If you can afford it, I think having a chiropractor out would really help. Having a trainer give her a "tune up" would help too.


Oy, I'll add chiropractor on my list then too.


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## Lucara (Apr 5, 2008)

Fire Eyes said:


> _
> My horse does that too, when you first ask to trot he acts insulted and tries to pigroot (he can't buck), but then relaxes after a minute or two.
> If it was me, I'd get a trainer for her. Get her to behave a bit better._


I'll ask if Jan wouldn't mind riding her on a day or two that I can't make it out. Tomorrow I'm going to work on her lunging a bit and see if we can't fix a few things there and then we'll work on her trot for a while as well.


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## HeartMyOTTB (Aug 13, 2009)

Maybe its a soundness issue rather than a training issue. She might be hurting somewhere. Either way, I would tell the people you bought her from that you will discuss the remaining cost after a thorough vet check. Once you've ruled a few things out, you can say, hey look, this horse is obviously on the green side, and perhaps you can strike up a deal.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

1dog3cats17rodents said:


> *She looks sore-and ****y about it.* If you can afford it, I think having a chiropractor out would really help. Having a trainer give her a "tune up" would help too.


You read my mind. She looks sore with a side of buddy sour to me. I'm curious to hear what the vet/farrier/chiro checks turn up.


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## Lucara (Apr 5, 2008)

Scoutrider said:


> You read my mind. She looks sore with a side of buddy sour to me. I'm curious to hear what the vet/farrier/chiro checks turn up.


I'll definitely let you know. I'm going to hold off on the vet check until I talk to her owner and discuss what we are going to settle on with her last payment. I really dont want to dish out $300+ for a vet bill on a horse I might not be keeping.

I have placed 2 adds for chiropractors tonight though.

The farrier is supposed to come out Weds but I wont be there. I'll ask Jan to show him the video though.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

She doesn't have any collection and she should be able to trot without going to a canter without alot of tension on the reins. She seems pretty dead gentle but maybe not really well broke. Spend some time witha trainer and get her soft through the poll and flexing well and she wil seem like a different horse. She probably gets iritated when she is ask to trot and then she goes too fast and gets shut down then she goes too slow and then has too speed up. Try just letting her trot on a loose rein, when she speeds up slow her back to a trot and loosen the reins again. When you keep constant contact on the reins horses have a tendency to get heavy on the forehand.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

I hate being among the first to post because so many people know so much more here than I do, but what I see is a horse that just doesn't want to listen. She sticks her nose up and says, "I don't wanna".

IMHO, she needs an even, patient hand and lots and lots of hours in the saddle. I wouldn't do more than a walk until she settles down. Even at the walk she is already testing and pushing. Get the walk down pat so she knows what is expected of her. I doubt it will take long to go from a settled walk to an easier trot. If you move too quickly with her, you'll likely to have a big episode with her. So if you are a beginner (though you look like you're doing OK to me), you might want to avoid that. She's got that twisty-buck that is so hard to sit!

She moves very nicely and I love her look. If you are willing and able to take the time with her, I'd keep her. But you can't expect too much. She certainly isn't a child safe horse.


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## Lucara (Apr 5, 2008)

Actually shes really relaxed at the trot. That day I think she was overly ****ed because Jazz was there (the other horse). She still gets frustrated but she'll lower her head and keep a nice even frame at the walk for the most part. 

I'm going start her on stretching before and after each ride to help her flexing. She doesnt turn very well. 

Shes also got a personality to die for but you can't tell from these videos. Shes one of the cuddliest and absolutely most loving horse I've met yet. Lol ask her to trot and its like your punishing a teenager!

btw THANK YOU for saying I wasn't doing too badly. Lol Its so hard to focus on what your doing when your trying to figure out why the heck your horse is trying to do a new twist on the spanish walk .


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I don't know why you keep apoligizing for your "lack of ability". We all have to start somewhere! She's a darling horse. My first opinion is that she's a witchy mare with a nasty temper that is avoiding the bit (She is behaving alot like my witchy mare, who rides beautifully for beginners. ONLY BEGINNERS - no advanced riders). BUT I would definitely consider the saddle fit and any possible ouchie issues. I'd see if you could do a vet check on her back and her teeth and then check the saddle. I wouldn't call a chiropractor out until after the vet. I know it is poopie to have to pay out money on a vet check but it would be worth it to figure out if she's a witch or if she's in pain....

Good luck, she's really pretty.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

You could get lucky and have a vet who is also a chiropractor- I forget I'm spoiled by that, lol


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## boxer (Feb 20, 2009)

It looks too me that she is a bit a marey mare in that she pins her ears when asked to do somehting she doesn;t want to or when she goes near the other horse. do you have a more enclosed area that you could work her in? I also think lunging and ground work exercise will help her to learn that you are the boss. I would get a chiropractor to have a look though because I know my horse can kick out a little when she gets sore in her hip and needs the chiropractor. Also do you have a lot of flies around. My mare will NOT work well if she has flies all around her and she gets down right cranky and I have to put her fly mask on over the bridle


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Did you ask the trainer to ride her and give you the opinion? That would be helpful IMO. To me she looks like she's just trying to be in charge or something annoys her. But may be something doesn't fit her. You just never know. 

BTW Jemma behaved somewhat similar to the 1st video when I tried loose rings snaffle on her. 3 different mouthpieces and she behaved that weird every single time.


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## Pidge (Sep 5, 2009)

Is it just me or does anyone else notice her chomping on her bit in the second video?

This tells me you may need her teeth floated...when was the last time theyw ere done? My boy starts to chomp like that if his teeth hurt or feel funny...

An if its not her teeth then you may be to heavy handed as already suggested...try a looser rein an dont constatly ride in her mouth...know a friend with an amazing horse who will let anyone ride him except for the friend because said friend will not get out of his mouth and thus the horse throws him...lol dont want your situation to essculate into this lol


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## Lucara (Apr 5, 2008)

I actually have a VERY light hand. I hardly use any pressure and have nearly gotten her to where she'll turn on leg pressure alone (its still in the works lol). I apply more pressure as needed but at the trot I keep constant pressure due to her taking off like a bandit (which is what he last owner did. He rode her around like an idiot).

For reference. This was the first day I saw her. THIS is how the guy used to ride her.






As for her teeth, I would bet money that they need to be done. The last owner doesn't remember when they were done last but said they shouldn't need to be done.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I think your mare is suffering from a severe case of redneckitis. She has been overexposed to ignorant ******** that know nothing of horses or how to ride them. The only cure is good horsemanship and plenty of it. Send your horse to a really good trainer ( do your homework and make sure its a good one) and get some lessons along with your horse. She has holes in her training that you could pitch a cat through. She hollows out her back and doesn't balance well. She needs to learn real collection so she can trot and canter more easily. I'm glad she belongs to an owner that has a clue what a horse is supposed to do. Listening to the owners on the clip leads me to believe that to them 'collection' means they have more than one horse. Your mare is much better off with you as long as you do your part and teach her what she needs to know to recover from her bout of redneckitis.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Wow! That horse is a saint. Either of my mares would dump that guy right in place. I think you'll just need lots of patience with her.


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## Aoi Miku (Sep 27, 2009)

Wow, the first thing we do is have the physio out.
Infact, we have them out every 6 weeks.
Not to mention the saddles re fitted every time somethings picked up in their back.

She looks majorly sore in her back.
Have her back done and her saddle checked. She doesn't look like she's being naughty.
I've had a lot of horses like this and it's 99% of the time down to back problems.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I think she is very poorly handled and what's with the huge curb bit?? Backing is done all wrong. He is just pulling her back??
I didn't read any of the post other then look at 1/2 the video so I don't know the story but again she is poorly handled/rode.


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

I agree with Kevinshorses, she was trained by nothing more than ******** who were used to using big bits you control a horse. I'm sure she has huge holes in her foundation. I do agree also that she looks sore while being ridden.
I'd have her checked out by a good chiro and a vet. Remember horse's backs will always change, so recheck your saddle fitting. I always check mine every 2 months to make sure that it is fitting my horses correctly and there are no dry spots.

Poor girl


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Ok... Although Kevin's posts always seem a little... eee, harsh? For the most part I feel like he's a pretty knowledgeable gentleman and must agree with him sortof... 

This horse has been handled rough and wrong, her mouth has been yanked and I do think strongly recommend you have her back checked. She looks very cold backed, I can't decide if she's a witchy mare or not. I can say that she is a trained booger. I beleive she has some correct training under her belt but I think these boys have really put a hurtin' on her and soured her pretty badly. She's rusty and ornery at this point.

BUT - I also have to say, I have a mare at home that is really REALLY trained and rides... like a green broke horse, she's a cold-backed witch but an angel on the ground, loving and kind but really, with her attitude, She's best suited for walk trot beginners as long as there is an adult in the ring with her, she's an angel. I'm hoping this is not your horse but at this point, it's what I'm seeing.

I would follow Kevins suggestion and find a really good trainer. I DO NOT suggest a parellie/natural horsemanship trainer. This horse needs a kind person that can lay down the law. She is headed on a down hill spiral right now and I really think you need a professional to help you bring her back.

She's beautiful and has huge potential. I'm not sure I would give up on her right now because she has hope. But I do think you need serious help.


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

I personally think that this horse could benefit from a natural horsemanship trainer. They do set down the laws but aren't cruel about it as some trainers that I know of can be. To me I don't think she's being a witchy mare...something is bothering her, and to me it doesn't seem like "pfft nope just not going to do it".
Farmpony I will say that not all Parelli or NH trainers don't lay down rules or are not kind. I do natural horsemanship with my horses, and the one especially, and he is the most well behaved horse on the farm, and he used to be way worse than the OPs horse.
Yes she needs a professional, but I think she'd very well benefit from an NH trainer. Those ******* "trainers" were probably the worst I've seen in a while (I try to not watch any training videos for that sake), and I think she needs a slow, gentle hand to bring back her confidence and trust, then work on getting her to listen


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Do you know if she was a speed eventer?


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## Lucara (Apr 5, 2008)

As far as I know she has not been used in any speed events. She was a roping/cutting horse from what her previous owner told me.

I have a trainer who will be helping me with NH. I dont think she needs a rough hand, you can get the same exact outcome with patience and NH but with a bit more trust and a closer bond in the end. 

I agree that she is probably sore. She walks fairly stiff and has quite of bit of an issue turning sharply. I'm going to start her stretches today. After her owner and I discuss her final payment, I will call out the vet to do a full check up. I still have hope that she'll be a great horse with some patience and training though. She did well yesterday and its really given me hope that theres more to her than these fits.

The saddle is not mine though so theres nothing i can do about the fitting. A saddle of her own is next on the list once shes paid off but we've not noticed any pinching or any rub marks anywhere.


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

Even if the saddle is not yours you can still check to see if it fits. If it does not fit, stop riding until you can get a saddle that fits. It's better to go without riding or ride bareback for a while than to hurt her back more.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

"I dont think she needs a rough hand, you can get the same exact outcome with patience and NH but with a bit more trust and a closer bond in the end."

Traditional Methods, when done correctly, are not done by a rough hand.


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## ChevyPrincess (Aug 27, 2009)

She did lower her head at the poll when he put the bridle on, and she wasn't even tied. She doesn't stand still when mounting, I don't think that is a patience issue as it is an ignorant issue. She stood still after saddled, so I think he didn't train her to stand still while mounting.

Even when he asked her to trot, she held her head high. I can see how that would make her sore. I don't think she is cold backed, as she didn't flench when he put the saddle on her. I think it is a flexibility issue. That is unnatural. Her ears are back in listening, but also in annoyance. She was so sweet being saddled.. Her head lowers a little on the canter.

If that is what that guy calls a 'reining' stop, he got the wrong message. It seems to me, he only focuses on controlling the front of the horse. Not the back. You can't do a correct sliding stop with out collection and the horses body must be aligned straight (as Kevin pointed out). 

Oh no, and I have to say this again, NEVER ride with a LOOSE back cinch! What the hell is it good for if it's loose? It's not holding the saddle anywhere, and if anything, it would just spook the horse! Get it off if not going to use it properly!

And when backing, his hands should be lowered below the horse's withers, so she lowers her head and neck. All he is doing is yanking her and tossing her head to throw up in refusal.

But since she started out western, I would suggest taking her to a trainer. She has to learn a new different thing, and if you don't know western, the transition comes really fast for her, so she might be annoyed because she is confused on what to do. I think a trainer would be best =]

She seems like a good horse, just wondering what exactly she is supposed to do.


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## Lucara (Apr 5, 2008)

I've actually gotten her to stand for mounting. It took a few tries to figure out what works but if you mess with the girth or something else before trying to mount her, she'll stand. If you go straight to mounting, she'll walk on. Not sure why but if I check her girth one last time before mounting she'll stand still 100% of them time.

I've said before that the saddle shows no signs of pinching or rubbing. I'll have my instructor view the saddle again today just to be on the safe side.

I really don't want to get annoyed but I HAVE a trainer. Lol I HAVE someone who will help me with re-training her, I'm not doing anything on my own. My instructor has been breaking, training and showing for 35years so I have pretty good confidence in her abilities.

We've had her for just over a month now and to be honest she has made improvements. We're taking things slow. We worked solely on her walk for the first month. That was an experience on its own. It took 2 weeks for her to just walk in a straight line without giving me problems. I will ask Jan to grab a video sometime of her just walking like we usually do. Shes really started to relax, lower her head. She still gives me an issue with turning and bit pressure but I definitely think she needs her teeth floated regardless of what her previous owner says. I think that will solve A LOT of problems right there.
Shes a smudge more flexible than she was before and has started actually bending her neck when you ask her to turn but its still a work in progress. 

We have only recently started her on trotting which is when all of these other issues popped up. The bucking thing was completely unexpected.

Backing is still a work in progress. She will back but she still tries to stick her nose in the air.
About 80% of the time she will turn with leg pressure alone Lol still a work in progress.
About 40% of the time she will stop from seat pressure alone. Its all kind of hit and miss right now but its better than she was before so I'm more than thrilled with results so far.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I don't think you should get annoyed. I didn't realize you had a trainer. I think you've gotten some pretty good advice and some pretty good comments. The thing is, with very little background and only your details plus that video, it's hard to figure things out. 

I do believe that horse was correctly trained at one time. Is she registered? How old did you say she was? I think she has more training under her belt then you think. I just think she's been handled rough and wrong and is soured and maybe sore. I do know that team penners and cutters DO carry there heads high.... BUT, I think with cutting horses once you've picked your cow you let go the reigns and the horse go's to work. She may not be used to people telling her what to do. Did these guys show her or are they telling you what she's done?


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

To me, it looks like a pain response. 
Your instructor looking at your saddle does nothing. Get a saddle fitter out, get a vet out, etc... Rule out all pain responses.

Then if the problems continue I'd talk to the seller of the horse. If she was sold to you as dead broke and ridable by children, then she was obviously misrepresented in the sale if this is how she behaves. Legally you can force to old owners to buy her back, and personally it is the route I would go if the horse is sound and not in any pain.
It costs the same amount of money to feed a bad horse as a good one.


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## Lucara (Apr 5, 2008)

The guy is pretty back woods so I highly doubt he did any showing except maybe rodeo type penning shows? Even that I'm not sure about.

She is currently not registered. I have all of her information and papers if I wanted to register her but shes 13 and I'm not sure if the cost of her registration would be worth it at her age.

I'm not completely sure on how she was originally trained. This guy has had her for 3 years so any good foundation training shes had is probably somewhere down the toilet.

Hehe I appreciate all the advice actually. Other peoples opinions really help open up options and allow you to see others perspectives and i like that. So far no one has had anything to say that was rude or out of line so I have no issue.

Hehe but I have a trainer! I promiseses!!!


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## PonderosaMiniatures (Oct 2, 2009)

IMO...seems she has a lot of pent up energy, and seems alittle ****y, needs a good round pen, work out, seems also she does not like , to be alone...to much..
Pretty though, you 2 look good together...Lunge for awhile then ride...


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## Lucara (Apr 5, 2008)

Lol lunging her is also a work in progress. She definitely had the "keep your butt away from me" rule drilled into her skull so much that its all but impossible to get behind her. SHes only recently allowed me behind her to bathe her. We're trying a few different things. The round pen is a bit rough because its too small for her to move comfortably in. 

Since her owner said he lunged her before, I asked how he got her to move away. He said that if she gives me any issues to just stand at her shoulder and hit her as hard as I can and keep after her so that she gets the point of moving foward. 

Not gana happen even on a bad day.

We're figuring it out though. We'll find something that clicks with her and use that. Just havn't found it yet!

This was what I was going to send to her owner. Do you think its too brash for forward?

_Okay so this is what I have decided to do. Its obvious that she is in pain or uncomfortable somewhere along her shoulder or back with a combo of her mouth being an issue. This makes me very nervous. 
You assured me while i was there that her teeth did not need to be done because you check them regularly.

I've had at least 6 people suggest I have a chiropractor come out and they aren't cheep.


I'm going to have a full vet check done on her. I'm going to have the farrier and vet review the videos.



Depending on how her vet check turns out, I would like to discuss her final price with you. If her vet check comes back with a huge issue, I may ask that she be sent back to you and that I have my money refunded. 

We can discuss all of this tonight after you review the videos, please have your mother also review the video so that she is aware of what is going on. _


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Nice e-mail.


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## Lucara (Apr 5, 2008)

farmpony84 said:


> Nice e-mail.


sarcasm or were you serious? Lol I haven't sent it yet.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Lucara said:


> *We've had her for just over a month now *and to be honest she has made improvements. We're taking things slow. We worked solely on her walk for the first month.


Month is almost nothing. Especially if she was ridden that way as on video. You just have to be slow and patient and it'll all come. She's nice looking horse and seems to me pretty tolerant too. So just take it easy. And good luck with her!


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

She looks like she is throwing a hissy fit. Im wondering if she got away wiht alot and is trying to scare you so that you will quit riding her and let her be a pasture puff again lol. But i do agree, have the vet come out and give her a thorough exam. And i think that is a good e-mail (truly not being sarcastic lol) Could she be in heat when she acts up like this, or is it an almost every day thing? Some mare can be absolute whiches when there in heat, my friend had a mare that when she was in heat you couldnt touch her, you just had to completly leave her a lone. But if there is a problem hopefully the vet will find it, or she just may need to be shown who is the boss. I dont know lol


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## luvmyperch (Oct 5, 2009)

I was also thinking that she is in pain somewhere or could be in heat. I'd definately have a full vet check done and get the dentist out ASAP. Do you know if she has ever been ridden english? Is she used to a direct rein? She's very pretty and has good potential. I'd just worry about her exploding at some point if she's pushed further than she wants to go. Has your trainer ridden her and does she act the same way with your trainer?


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## Valentina (Jul 27, 2009)

I can't see the videos but some basic advice from someone who has owned and trained her own horses for over 30 years:

1.) Teeth should be done every 6-12 months, NEVER longer than a year. The younger they are the more often until they're around 3 years old. Older horses (16+) also need teeth done more often. Teeth continuously grown and develop SHARP edges, especially in the back by the bit. That makes steering with a bit painful for the horse plus they drop a lot of their feed or don't digest it well - hence it will cost more money to keep weight on them.
2.) Unrelated to your post but in Florida I worm every 3-4 months and rotate from Ivermectin to something with Anthelcide in it (Equimax). 
3.) Saddles, like you shoes, need to fit the horse AND rider. The saddle "tree" comes in different sizes and how your horse is built will determine what size tree she needs. Trees CAN be adjustable, but not all saddle have adjustable trees. Saddles also have "stuffing" called "flocking" which periodically gets lumpy, hard or shifts inside the leather so the saddle might end up being lopsided. That can cost around $150 to be re-done. Since you're in Florida this place [email protected] does saddle re-flocking. He's a tad expensive BUT an expert. His website (saddle are VERY expensive) is: Verhan™ Saddlery • Jumping Saddles •

If she's bucking/rearing saddle fit is the first place to start. Even if you get a chiropractor (Dr. Bartkus in Vero Beach does humans and horses and is VERY good) if the saddle doesn't fit the horse will start hurting again soon after they're adjusted. 

How to tell if the saddle fits: after you ride remove the saddle pad. If the pad is not EQUALLY wet underneath the entire pad then the dry spots are where it does not fit. The most common place is up front by the withers - if its dry there the tree is too narrow for the horse.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

I watched the first day video and I really do think that she is now testing you. She's used to a very "direct" rider that used her balance to keep her under control. Notice how often he supposedly "flexed" her? Ya... more like let her know he wasn't going to put up with any crap from her. I do think she can be a very nice ride. She is so pretty and smooth. If you learn to react to her just as soon as she is even thinking about testing you, she will get the idea pretty quickly. Learn to feel her body. React to any sign of her not responding appropriately. For example, as soon as she sticks her nose out, stop her and start again. Don't let her get away with ANYTHING. Given an inch, this is a horse that will take you a mile -- at whatever gait she desires! I reiterate -- she needs to be calm and responsive at a walk before progressing to the trot. She is NOT calm at the trot with you, but she can be given time. Man, I just love her movement. Maybe it's just me, but she's got something.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

No, I thought it was a nice e-mail. I'm never brave enough to say what needs to be said. I think you did well.


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## Plains Drifter (Aug 4, 2009)

Honestly, I agree with NorthernMama. I also think she's beautiful and I wish you the best of luck in whatever decision you make regarding the future of the two of you together. Keep us posted!


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

First, I would rule out anything causing her pain. Soundness issue?

Does the saddle fit poorly? A poorly fitting saddle will hurt when she starts moving at trot, especially if your sitting and rising trot work is inconsistent (as it looks on the videos).

She may not feel like you are doing a good job directing her, leaving her to feel like she needs to be making the decisions. She seems very "marish" when other horses get in her space.

What kind of bit are you using? Many people feel "out of control" and react by putting a more severe bit on the horse. In reality, often a kinder bit will help resolve many resistance problems.

I would rule each of these possibilities out before I would call her a "bad" horse.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Absolutely excellent e-mail. You're putting the ball fully in your court by not letting yourself fall head over heels with a potentially dangerous animal. By letting them know you have no qualms about "losing" her if they aren't willing to co-operate, you're going to get a lot farther then trying to molly coddle the situation. Good on you!

I don't think this mare has any "bad attitude". It's blatantly obvious even when he's saddling that she's already getting herself amped. She won't stand for mounting, and the way she's acting from the bridle it's obvious she's been yanked around to the point where it's made her almost neurotic from fear of the bit. Once he let's her move out and stops fussing with her, she looks like a beautiful ride. Then he HAULS her to a horrific stop and continues yanking on her to make her back up.

You're a smaller and less strong rider, and I really don't think she's truly trying to pull anatics with you so much as she's afraid, doesn't know what the heck anybody wants anymore, and you're a lot easier to intimidate then ******* Sam. I think with time and patience, she'll break out into a DREAM of a mare. I absolutely love her build, she's a breathtaking animal with tons of potential. She just needs a softer hand and some understanding.

Best of luck!


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## Lucara (Apr 5, 2008)

She DOES have a back issue. The farrier came out and did her feet but he also worked with our vet for a while and he did a simple little test to see if she was tender anywhere and she is.

None of it matters. She is going back, she is not what I paid for and as sweet as she is, shes just not the horse for me.

This whole thing has blown up into some monstrous issue. The owner wont listen to my instructor when she tries to explain whats going on (I can't explain how to tie a shoe..much less explain properly what is going on). The owner ended up completely flying off the handle, and started cussing out my trainer while my trainer spent a good 10minutes telling her she needs to calm down.

The owner argued about her AGE! Her age is on the frickin registration papers!! She insists shes 10 years old, the papers guarantee her at 13! She says the bit I'm using is too soft, I'm keeping too much pressure on the reins, yadayadayada. 

We asked if James (the guy who rode Duch) would come out and prove to us what she is capable of and she came up with 3 different excuses as to why he can't come down.

My instructor wants to talk to a lawyer, I just want to give her Duchess back and forget about the $500 I spent on her. I just REALLY dont want to be in this situation, I want to be able to move on to bigger and better things. I've already re-couped my money and would prefer not to spend more on legal fees or God knows what else.


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## luvmyperch (Oct 5, 2009)

I'm so sorry this is happening! This is definatley one of those things to learn from, but certainly not what you want to have happen with your first horse. Keep you chin up, it'll all work out for the best!


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

i think thats wise, you might end up spending way more than $500 on lawyers alone.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I'm really sorry this happened. She's a pretty horse but I think you are making a good decision. For yourself and your safety. I really am sorry though.


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## dacer44 (Sep 20, 2009)

I am so sorry about your whole situation. I hope everything works out, I'm sure you'll be much more prepared for the purchase of your next horse. 

I am in almost the same situation just maybe not quite as severe as yours. I haven't heard from my horse's previous owners since the day they dropped him off 3 weeks ago. I'm hoping I won't have to end up selling him and that i'll be able to work through his problems.

Anyways, keep us up to date with your situation. Good luck!


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## RadHenry09 (Mar 22, 2009)

Wow , I am so sorry that you had to go through this . Keep your head up , I know that it can be hard to find that perfect horse for you but you will. Keep looking , he/she is out there.
I searched and searched for our Paint gelding and ended up driving 3 hours one way for him. He isn't trained to the nines but he is gentle and very good to my daughter plus an excellent trail horse. It took me a long time to find him( in my price range) 

Good luck , we are all on your side. : )


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Can you try and sell her on the private market? I really worry about the previous owners' lack of compassion towards our 4 legged friends.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

My mare does that at times when shes soar (she has sidebone) or just ****y. First of all, if you have a horse that can be dangerous, any you may fall off of, you need to be riding her in a ring. if she has the possibility of taking off its too dangerous to be riding around out in the open. you could even injure someone else at the barn. she probably needs alot of retraining. my mare used to do gaming only. she had no formal breaking, so she acts alot like that, she "runs" all over everyone riding her and can be dangerous for riders who dont know her quirks.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Good job! It is so hard to make the decision you are making, and I know what a tough position it puts you in. In most places misrepresenting a horse is an offense punishable by law. 

Next time you purchase a horse, make sure you purchase the horse only AFTER a thorough vet check, and if possible try to get a trial period. A $250 vet check can save you thousands of dollars in the long run.

I really hope that everything works out for you, and if the owner wont take the horse back then consider a private sale or donation to a lesson program (of course on the condition that they treat her issues).

Good luck!!


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## Lucara (Apr 5, 2008)

I doubt it. I had Samson up for sale for 6 months and eventually had to give him away. Granted that was due to money issues and I just absolutely could no longer afford him.

I dont know, its all being discussed. The only way I could have her to sell would be if I paid the other $500. I wouldn't be able to sell her for the 1k I purchased her at and donating her would make me out of $1k and I just can't do that.


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## RadHenry09 (Mar 22, 2009)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Good job! It is so hard to make the decision you are making, and I know what a tough position it puts you in. In most places misrepresenting a horse is an offense punishable by law.
> 
> Next time you purchase a horse, make sure you purchase the horse only AFTER a thorough vet check, and if possible try to get a trial period. A $250 vet check can save you thousands of dollars in the long run.
> 
> ...


 
Trial period is a wonderful idea, I forgot to put that in my post. I had a 3 week trial period for my Paint. The owner wouldnt cash the check until the 3 week period was up. I either would return the horse and get my check back or keep him and they would cash the check. This was all under a contract that we both agreed to.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

You can take the previous owner to small claims court. You don't need a lawyer and it ussually only costs $50 to file. Worse case senario, you are out $50 and an hour of your time. Best case senario, she ignores the summons and/or the judge finds in your favor and you get the $500 back and they take the horse back.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

you can sue her but can you really force her to take the horse back? im not 100% sure. 

horses are generally not an investment... even if you bought her you would be out 1k. you can donate her to a rescue and get a tax deduction. you just might get stuck with her, so start looking at options.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

*shrugs* I'd refuse to give the horse back until they refunded my money. They completely misrepresented her, and better yet, you have videos of her borderline endangering your life as proof. It's illegal to falsely advertise which is exactly what they did.

And from what I'm seeing something tells me THEY don't have the money to go to court either.

Definately up to you but I'd fight them tooth and nail on this.


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## lexxwolfen (Oct 22, 2009)

Did you try lunging her at a trot with and without the tack? It may just be she's sore or something isn't fitting properly.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> *shrugs* I'd refuse to give the horse back until they refunded my money. They completely misrepresented her, and better yet, you have videos of her borderline endangering your life as proof. It's illegal to falsely advertise which is exactly what they did.
> 
> And from what I'm seeing something tells me THEY don't have the money to go to court either.
> 
> Definately up to you but I'd fight them tooth and nail on this.


I'm sorry, but I do have to disagree with you here.
The horse acted up in the video. It was apparent to an experienced eye that the horse was not right for a beginner. If the OP had taken a trainer or instructor with her, I would assume they would have told her this wasn't the right horse. 
People misrepresent horses, people drug horses for sale, they lie and they cheat just to get a sale. It takes an experienced eye to know exactly what you're getting.
The bottom line is that the OP has it on video that this horse is not well broke whatsoever. She got taken, she got duped. It's very sad and I do feel for her, but I also don't think she'll get anywhere by fighting tooth and nail.


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## Lucara (Apr 5, 2008)

Well this is what the attorney sent Jan as a reply to the situation. She feels that I should get my money back. I would personally like to talk to the attorney first before making any sort of move but this is what she sent.

EQUINE SALES


Under Florida law, if a buyer questions a seller of a horse regarding any problems the horse may have had or has (i.e., lameness, history of colic, etc.) the seller must disclose those problems. A seller is obliged to inform a buyer that a horse is unsuitable for a particular use, if the seller has been told by the buyer of that use and the seller knows the horse can’t or should not be used for that purpose. If not, the seller could be held accountable for any resulting damages.
When a rider buys a horse from their trainer or a trainer assists them in finding the “right horse,” the trainer has a fiduciary duty towards the rider, and so the trainer must disclose all she or he knows about the horse. If not, the trainer could be held responsible for any resulting damages.
A sales contract can protect a seller from future claims by the buyer if it states that the horse is sold “as is” and includes a disclaimer of warranty (that means no guarantees of future performance and soundness).
If a buyer has nothing in writing to prove that he or she is the horse’s valid owner, breed registries will probably not forward the papers on a horse.


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## Countrygal892000 (Apr 17, 2009)

I have to say that even at the walk she looks to be unsound. She is swishing her head a lot and her tail and just looks very uncomfortable. I would have a vet check her out to make sure she is sound. If that doesn't help than I would guarantee it is just an attitude problem. Put someone on her that WILL NOT let her get her way. After she threw her fit you stopped her and whoever was videoing ran out to you... Do Not Do That! If she throws a fit you get on her and make her keep going. If you get scared when she does that and are nervous that she might do that.. she senses it... Get someone who is very experienced and will not show anxiety when riding her. Get them to be firm with her and help you to get over being frightened. Until you do she is going to keep taking advantage of you.


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

It sounds like you're handling the situation well, and good for you for realizing when you were in a little over your head. Glad that no one has been seriously injured and it sounds like you have learned a LOT from this (namely never ever get a horse without a full vet check and trainer checking them and yes yes yes to the trial period. In going along to vet horses I have seen many drugged and given bute to mask attitude and lameness issues.)


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

Lucara, good luck with this deal. From that it looks good for you, let us know what happens.

Saddly it is rare to find a horseperson who has not bought the wrong horse. I know I have once. Good luck in finding the right horse for you, you have an advantage in Jan there to help. With any luck she help you right the right horse for you like my riding buddy Steve, did for me.


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## luvmyperch (Oct 5, 2009)

I know it doesn't make it any easier, but you're not the first one to get into a bad situation with new horse. When I bought Noah, the girl selling him (who, btw, was getting him ready to go to auction when I saw him. I was there to see a different horse) told me he was 14-16. I said there's no way, and my "trainer" assured me that he was in the 16-18 yr old range. I was still doubtful but assumed that I was with people who were more knowledgeable than me. I would have guessed he was in his early 20s. So, the dentist comes out the following week and we find out he is close to, if not already, 30! Fortunately, I was ok with having an old guy to take care of and was not about to let him go back to the a** who sold him to me. I knew she was taking him to the auction and he'd probably end up as a slaughter sale. For the last 10 years without a horse, I always said I wanted to adopt an old guy who had paid his dues and wanted to be spoiled in his last years. So, that's what I got!

Anyway, the point is that you really never know exactly what you're gonna get with a new horse. Live and learn, now you know a little bit more next time around!


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> *shrugs* I'd refuse to give the horse back until they refunded my money. They completely misrepresented her, and better yet, you have videos of her borderline endangering your life as proof. It's illegal to falsely advertise which is exactly what they did.
> 
> And from what I'm seeing something tells me THEY don't have the money to go to court either.
> 
> Definately up to you but I'd fight them tooth and nail on this.


 
I aree with this...there is no way that horse would be returned until they coughed up the 500$ I had already paid them.

I also agree with Kevin on small claims court...it's worth a shot atleast. And maybe they'd settle for just losing out on the other 500$ and let you keep (and thus resell, or donate her). They are in the wrong here, and if you just hang your head and let them take the horse, AND your 500$ they will turn around and do this to someone else too. 

On a side I think that mare has the potential to do alot of stuff with the correct handling.


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## Lucara (Apr 5, 2008)

Okay so an itsy bitsy update. Duch has actually been doing "ok" at the trot. Her fits are to a minimum and although she still kinda speed trots here and there it is a large improvement over the way she has been.

I called the owner and asked if she would allow me to keep her for 2 more months to see if things approve. If so I would gladly pay her in full without any objection.

I don't see why she wouldn't. Its not costing her anything and she has another chance at getting her full $1k.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Lucara, whatever you do now, I would get as much in writing as possible and keep a journal. JIC it does end up in court. Whatever you decide to do in the end I'm sure will be the right decision for you. You don't seem to be jumping to action too quickly, though maybe the initial purchase was?

I will just add that in my experience, it takes a horse 6 months to a year to truly settle in to new surroundings and new management. If there are issues, likely the "fix" won't be etched in until sometime after that time. So, you need to look at having set backs for at least a year with her. Are you prepared for that? Does that fit with your own goals?

She sure is a beauty. I wonder... is there a trainer there that would help you for $500? I have no idea how much trainers cost, but if you could tell the people that you have to spend that much on training, therefore it's coming out of the purchase price you won't be out any money. It's a shot in the dark and definitely no guarantee. What does a trainer tell you? Worth investigating?


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## Lucara (Apr 5, 2008)

Nope, she nearly ran me through a fence the day after I posted that. She will be picked up on Saturday.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

i hope you can get your money back !


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Sorry this ended up this way; I hope you get your money back.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Good luck -- I hope you get your money back, but if you don't you need to consider it a lesson and carry on. I recently lost several hundred dollars on a bad purchase too (not a horse) and I was mighty upset about it, but there was nothing I could do, so I got over it. In your case, you have to decide how much you are willing to fight for $500.

We can only hope that the owners will be more upfront with the next buyers.


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## dashygirl (Nov 21, 2006)

Sometimes life teaches us things the hard way. I do hope that you can get your money back and find a horse that is just right for you.


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