# Base color of grey horse



## Luce73 (Dec 7, 2012)

Hey everyone, 

My horse Moro is a grade fleabitten grey, probably a throroughbred mix, we dont know anything about his history and he has no papers. He has some funny markings that make me wonder what basecolor he might be, I'm attaching some pictures, any ideas? 

- His coat is white with dark grey and some brown flecks. 
- he has black markings, small ones on his legs, and a black spot on his belly the size of a large hand (added pictures of the largest one on his left hind and the belly one)
- He has a white blaze, with a tiny pink snip on his nose and a bit of pink on his lip
- His belly, under his mane and on his right hip, there is less grey and more white, making those areas appear as 'markings' too. In his 'armpits' it is darker. This is weird to me, as they are all areas that get LESS sunlight, so its not likely to be bleaching :/ 
- His mane and tails were a dark grey 3-4 years ago, now they are mixed in with more white. He's around 20 years old. 

(please excuse the crappy writing on the pictures, there was no 'text' option xD)


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## Luce73 (Dec 7, 2012)

Quick comparison of his mane, a picture of him in March 2014 (not me riding, hence the blacked out rider) And of him last month.


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

Fleebites are curious things but essentially little spots of the original color that often come back and increase in quantity as certain grey horses age and not all fleebitten greys have the same arrangement of fleebites so lighter patches are normal. 
From what I can see he was definitely black based, thought whether a true black or a dark brown is hard to say as both would have a black mane & tail and lower legs and not all greys that were brown/bay based retain their tan muzzles.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I'd go with black based and most likely black.


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## Luce73 (Dec 7, 2012)

Thanks for your opinions! I am pretty sure he was black based ('Moro' is a common name for black horses/dogs etc here, it pretty much means 'black'). Any ideas where the black markings might come from? Are they just patches that never greyed out? Is that common?


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I can't answer your questions (other than agreeing that he is black-skinned except for the white blaze), but wanted to say that we have an 18 year old flea-bitten grey with brown spots. We found out recently he was born a chestnut and greyed out. His mane and tail were black for many years, but are now white. 

However, I've also noticed some black markings (not brown!) - some are even newish! And they are large enough to be noticeable. In at least one case, he scraped some skin off his face, and where it happened, the hair grew in black. But over a few months, it greyed out again. Weird. 

Ours is also whiter in the winter, because the long winter hairs are white, whereas the brown (chestnut really) spots don't seem to grow out long. And of course his hair is thicker so his black skin doesn't show through in the winter. 

Greys are really quite the chameleons!


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## Luce73 (Dec 7, 2012)

Acadianartist said:


> I can't answer your questions (other than agreeing that he is black-skinned except for the white blaze), but wanted to say that we have an 18 year old flea-bitten grey with brown spots. We found out recently he was born a chestnut and greyed out. His mane and tail were black for many years, but are now white.
> 
> However, I've also noticed some black markings (not brown!) - some are even newish! And they are large enough to be noticeable. In at least one case, he scraped some skin off his face, and where it happened, the hair grew in black. But over a few months, it greyed out again. Weird.
> 
> ...


The markings on his leg made me think old injury too! But I'm uessing (HOPING!) that very large belly one was not an injury, he'd have to have gotten impaled somehow and then had an infection for ti to be that large  haha. 

That's so interesting that Harley was a chestnut! I would have guessed him as black based as well. Moro gets darker in winter and lighter in summer. Greys are weird! haha.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Luce73 said:


> The markings on his leg made me think old injury too! But I'm uessing (HOPING!) that very large belly one was not an injury, he'd have to have gotten impaled somehow and then had an infection for ti to be that large  haha.
> 
> That's so interesting that Harley was a chestnut! I would have guessed him as black based as well. Moro gets darker in winter and lighter in summer. Greys are weird! haha.


Pretty sure Harley has a spot like that on his belly too! Will have a look. I just thought it was darker because you can see more skin where the hair kind of whorls around and meets under the belly. Or maybe it's where their belly button is! I'll have to look now, LOL. Will try to get a pic.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Luce73 said:


> Thanks for your opinions! I am pretty sure he was black based ('Moro' is a common name for black horses/dogs etc here, it pretty much means 'black'). Any ideas where the black markings might come from? Are they just patches that never greyed out? Is that common?


Google "bloody shoulder markings" basically they just didn't grey out. Some can have large spots some small some none others many...

Really though you're overanalyzing. A fleck here and there means nothing. His armpits are darker as there is less hair there and his skin is black. He's a grey with fleabites nothing more nothing less. I agree he's likely dark based, black would make sense but the only way to know for sure is color test. Aside from that he just has some basic white markings as common (most of these we don't know actual genetics for).

As far as the very detailed analysis... those larger marks are possibly the bloody shoulder marking or injuries (the legs may be) and everything else is just grey being grey haha.

He's very handsome


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## Luce73 (Dec 7, 2012)

@Yogiwick haha thanks, I'm sure you're right. I just started wondering if maybe he had some sabino and his skin actually had markings under his coat.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Luce73 said:


> @Yogiwick haha thanks, I'm sure you're right. I just started wondering if maybe he had some sabino and his skin actually had markings under his coat.


When you wet him down, you would be able to see where any white markings are. My best friend's gray TB gelding has a blaze and two white socks, but they are only really visible when he is wet. There is a member here (@Tazzie) with a pinto mare who is gray and you can very clearly see her markings when she is wet because it shows the black skin under the "colored" areas and pink skin under the white.


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## Luce73 (Dec 7, 2012)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> When you wet him down, you would be able to see where any white markings are. My best friend's gray TB gelding has a blaze and two white socks, but they are only really visible when he is wet. There is a member here (@Tazzie) with a pinto mare who is gray and you can very clearly see her markings when she is wet because it shows the black skin under the "colored" areas and pink skin under the white.


I'll try that when the weather warms up enough to bathe him (its winter here). Thanks for the tip


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Luce73 said:


> @Yogiwick haha thanks, I'm sure you're right. I just started wondering if maybe he had some sabino and his skin actually had markings under his coat.


Ok I wasn't sure what you were going for lol! Remember that any white markings will have white skin underneath if they are big enough to be called markings. Also remember that white is like paint- white is always white regardless of other colors- so the white spots will NOT have flea bites. From what I see he seems pretty typically grey. He obviously has white on his face and I suspect some of his lower legs. The way the face white looks he very well could have sabino but not enough to give him any noticeable body markings (and the darker areas have nothing to do with pinto markings since they would be white not darker).

Here's a visual







This horse will NEVER have flea bites on the withers- if she goes white and then flea bites the coloring would ONLY be in the currently colored areas-hip leg and face on this side- so she would be a "flea bite and white pinto" (lol). White is white is white (expect for when they're dirty!!)

There's a member on here with a beautiful grey pinto that has owned her for many years and can show the progression of her color. Can't remember who's who though 

He's beautiful the way he is though!


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## Luce73 (Dec 7, 2012)

@Yogiwick Thank you, I didnt actually realize that white would stay white. Makes sense though! And I agree with you that he is beautiful the way he is <3 I might be biased though xD


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Luce73 said:


> @Yogiwick Thank you, I didnt actually realize that white would stay white. Makes sense though! And I agree with you that he is beautiful the way he is <3 I might be biased though xD


Yes like I said think of white as spilled paint. The horse is a certain color, the horse may even has a gene that changes the color (grey) but white will always be white and "covers" the color of the horse (and will always have pink skin under the white). All white pinto genes work this way, it's not the color, it's white OVER the color. (Another analogy is snow on the ground with the ground showing though).

A chestnut pinto for example is not (in this sense lol) a brown and white horse it is a brown horse with white spots.

Now it's tricky to look at a grey and think that way but if you look at solid colored horses I think it will be easier to understand. Grey is hard because we look at it and think "oh the horse is white" but genetically it doesn't work that way. When you see the progression it will be easier. Maybe @Tazzie will chime in, she's the one I was thinking about.. You can check out her pretty girl in her barn but recent pictures show her as mostly white now- but if wet down you will still see those pinto spots 

Another note- most people stay away from grey in pintos because many people want spots and you won't be able to see the spots. Yes the spots will still be there! But you won't be able to see them as you'll see white on white so if you want the color you'll avoid anything that hides it.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Sorry I got busy and never got around to showing pics of Harley! 

He was born chestnut, but I have no pics of him at that age. This shows how much he's grayed out over the last ten years (the first pic was provided by former owners). His mane and tail are almost completely white now.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

He has 3 white socks (so 3 white hooves and one dark), and a pretty wide blaze. He also has a number of dark spots - some that appear permanent, but some that seem to be the result of an injury. 

These two (circled in red) have been there since we got him:


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

On the other hand, these two images show Harley last winter, and Harley two weeks ago. He had scraped the skin on his face last summer, and it grew back as a black spot (near his right eye). But it eventually faded, and this summer, you can no longer see the black spot. So that was a result of a scar that grew in black, but greyed out again. 

You can also see his pink skin better in the second picture because he doesn't have his winter coat.

The weird thing is that these spots grow black hair in, however, his flea bites are chestnut. There is a clear difference of colour between them.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

Haha, thanks @Yogiwick for the tag!

I take a million pictures of my mare, so I have every year of progression for her 

Newborn baby









Couple months old









Weanling









Yearling









Two year old









Three year old









Four year old









Five year old









Six year old









And then this year, the one in a stall is untouched; the light just hit her just right to show her patterns

















Her lips usually give it away that she has some paint markings, and when she sweats they are visible. Here are some wet photos, and then one showing she's developing fleabitten spots at 7. So at some point her patterns will be shown again. You can see the pink skin in the wet photos


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

@Tazzie those pics are so cool! My understanding is that Harley pretty much completely greyed out by age 6 as well, though his mane and tail remained dark for a few more years. I wish I had some of him as a foal!

The patterns are really neat!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Acadianartist said:


> @*Tazzie* those pics are so cool! My understanding is that Harley pretty much completely greyed out by age 6 as well, though his mane and tail remained dark for a few more years. I wish I had some of him as a foal!
> 
> The patterns are really neat!


Wow, they greyed out really fast! Or maybe my guy is really slow. I've never owned a grey through the greying process before until now. I've had two other greys but they were already fleabit when I bought them. But here is my guy at age 7. I feel lucky he is holding on to his dapples for a while (I love them). I'm just surprised most horses are nearly white at that age? Would that be true?


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

All very pretty greys!! 

Horses grey at different rates, some completely by age 6 and some not until their teens. The draft horses I think tend to grey out slower than QH or Arabians. But each is an individual. 

My Arab Paint gelding did not get flee bitten until this year; and he is 28 yrs old! 

What I have noticed is the flee-bitten spots are the opposite of the original color. A Black-based horse tends to get brown spots, and a red based horse tends to get black spots. Don't know why this is, but that is what I have observed in horses that we knew the original color.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

I can only speak for Izzie since I know what she is under the grey (she's at least Ee Gg. I don't know her Agouti status as her dam was chestnut (can hide Agouti) and guessing dad was bay under the grey, just don't know if he was homozygous or heterzygous for Agouti; going to get Izzie tested next year), but her fleabitten spots are brown. So right now she's sticking to what her base color was.

And yeah, we were super bummed she greyed out so fast, but such is life! I wouldn't change her haha! But I take pictures so often it was easy to show her progression!


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## Luce73 (Dec 7, 2012)

Wow a lot of replies since i last logged on! Thanks for the pictures @Acadianartist. Moro looked a lot like that early picture of Harley when he came to my barn. And now his mane and tail are a lot whiter (though still have a lot of grey in them) 
@Tazzie, it's so interesting to see how Izzie started out brown and then when she started greying out it turned to a black-based grey rather than the brown getting lighter/interspersed with white hairs, as I would have expected.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

Well, she at least started black based with a bay/brown modifier on it. But Izzie has never done anything "by the book." :lol: she just wanted to be grey SUPER fast for only have one copy of the grey gene!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Tazzie said:


> Haha, thanks @Yogiwick for the tag!
> 
> I take a million pictures of my mare, so I have every year of progression for her
> 
> ................


OMG this is so much better than I could even imagine. I'm sure I'll be linking back to this post a million times! Glad you chimed in!

Desi in my avatar was pure white at 13 then got flea bites after so I don't think that he greyed out too early.

Yes part of getting grey is to get darker THEN get lighter.. Grey is weird.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

Yogiwick said:


> OMG this is so much better than I could even imagine. I'm sure I'll be linking back to this post a million times! Glad you chimed in!
> 
> Desi in my avatar was pure white at 13 then got flea bites after so I don't think that he greyed out too early.
> 
> Yes part of getting grey is to get darker THEN get lighter.. Grey is weird.


Grey is weird, but it's always been my favorite color on a horse. New horse every show season :lol:

I have had people tell me if I didn't take a million pictures of my horse they wouldn't believe it was the same animal haha! I posted flattering photos of her.. she wasn't always easy to look at :lol:

And yeah, that's not that fast I don't think. Izzie is 7 and every year is getting more "freckles" in her coat. She just wanted to grey out super fast haha!


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

trailhorserider -- The graying process is very individualized  Some horses gray out in just a handful of years, some will have a slow process over their entire lives. 
What a pretty gray :')

Really gorgeous photos, everyone! :'D


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Tazzie said:


> I have had people tell me if I didn't take a million pictures of my horse they wouldn't believe it was the same animal haha! I posted flattering photos of her.. she wasn't always easy to look at :lol:


I had friends who didn't quite believe that my guy would turn grey. I told them that he would and I don't think they ever really believed it until it was quite obvious!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Zexious said:


> trailhorserider -- The graying process is very individualized  Some horses gray out in just a handful of years, some will have a slow process over their entire lives.
> What a pretty gray :')
> 
> Really gorgeous photos, everyone! :'D


Thanks! I am quite partial to him!


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