# Contact and release, quiet hands, busy hands



## celestejasper13 (May 16, 2014)

With the horse I'm schooling, I've had trouble finding my own balance between lengthening the reins to encourage him to stretch without him leaning on the bit, waiting for the stretch. What I've realised is that your hands should be such that they give release when the horse moves correctly without you having to consciously give the release - the horse should be able to find its own release. 
My horse used to ride really strung-out. Even when I got him going forward from behind and into a good contact, he still prefered at first not to put his head on the vertical just out of laziness. He had not yet realised that self carriage and keeping his poll high was the correct way of going. What happens is, people become so obsessed with contact and release, that the horse stops seeking the contact. If your horse feels that he's constantly aiming for rein release, then he will do anything he can to relieve the bit pressure, and this is how people end up with horses that suck back behind the vertical and evade the contact because they feel that that way of going will offer them the most release.
Valegro is not working into his lovely contact because he is aiming to achieve release form the rein pressure - otherwise he would have his chin tucked into his chest. He knows that the reins are his communication with his rider, and he is seeking the contact that will allow him to understand Charlotte's commands. I know she loves to tell everyone to 'push forward with their hands rather than pull'. I'm not saying this is relevant to you, it's just what I've come to realise now I'm doing more schooling of my own.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

^well said!

I am riding a hrose who does just what you said; goes behind the contact because, I suppose of years of being ridden perhaps by a rider with either too timid a hand, or, too harsh a hand. both can create the hrose that flees the bit, just one does it out of his attempts to 'do what he's supposed to before being asked' and the other out of fear of pain.

what I notice watching that video of Charlotte is how much her hands 'breathe' with the horse. they really appear to be going in and out with the horse's movment, and since horses often do breath in time with their gaits, it feels like breathing.

of course, that is only possible with a tremendously independent seat.


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

I'm not seeing so much busy hands as I am an elastic elbow combined with subtle hand cues to the horse to perform the various movements. While there is constant contact but the lightness varies , the horse is not stress or upset---notice the ears and no tail swishing. The horse is soft and responsive to a rider in tune with the horse---beautiful performance!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Prairie said:


> I'm not seeing so much busy hands as I am an elastic elbow combined with subtle hand cues to the horse to perform the various movements. While there is constant contact but the lightness varies , the horse is not stress or upset---notice the ears and no tail swishing. The horse is soft and responsive to a rider in tune with the horse---beautiful performance!



See this is my major malfunction, over thinking or not?

Elastic elbows is a concept that I'm trying to get, but with elastic elbows surely MUST come mobile shoulders? One of the things I hate about my pics is the shoulders up around ears look. SO I have to relax and get shoulders back and down, but allow them to move through the use of elastic elbows....see I DID when I was self taught think I had 'soft hands' what I actually had was open hands, I now know that soft hands is actually a misnomer, you need STRONG hands, firm hands, holding the reins well, not loosely, softness comes from elbows and shoulders, not open fingers and breaking wrists.

That elastic contact is what is getting me at the moment.....I need to 'find it' once I have felt it I can find it again....


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## Idrivetrotters (Jan 5, 2013)

At times I think riders focus too much on hands, and not enough on elbows, that is where true elasticity comes from.

This is a video of FEI World Champion 4 in Hand Driver, Chester Weber. Look at how consistent the contact is, how his hands and elbows are working individually to have soft, giving hands, yet knows when to take in and when to let out. His ability to handle the lines and his whip are one of the biggest assets he has.

I love having riders learn to drive also, driving teaches you how to handle your lines/reins, have a giving elbow, and soft hands.

Watching these advanced riders and drivers and concentrating on one aspect with the goal of putting all facets of this complicated puzzle together.


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

Golden Horse said:


> See this is my major malfunction, over thinking or not?
> 
> Elastic elbows is a concept that I'm trying to get, but with elastic elbows surely MUST come mobile shoulders?


 
Think of how your forearm should be in a straight line with the reins leading to the horse's mouth and bit-----you don't want to break that line nor do you want to be jerking on those reins at every stride----thus the elbows have to be the give and take.


The shoulders should be relaxed and down (not hunched over or pulled up to your ears) just to be balanced and in synch with the horse, moving gently with the hips and spine. However you don't want to be too relaxed to the point that you are slouching or have a rounded back. You want to be "fluid" so you are moving with the horse without interfering with him.


If riding were easy, all of us would be Olympic contenders and riding at the top of our disciplines! Strive to be the best that you can, and recognize that even those at the top of the game are still working to be one with the horse.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

that's so amazing to watch. I mean, the skill involved is just so impressive. you only have 4 reins and one whip to 'talk' to the four horses. not seat, no leg, . .. only the rein. it really speaks to the importance of the rein.


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

If you look carefully, you will notice that their are lines tying each horse to the one beside him so their reins "talk" to both horses. Also, in driving, there can be a lot of verbal cues, especially if one horse is not pulling his share or misbehaving. Our Belgian was part of a 6 horse hitch before we bought him--when I showed, all his prior owner had to do was say his name and the cue to get him to straighten up when I screwed up in the ring. Certainly this gelding was exceptional (his kids still tell me 19 years later that he was the best horse they ever owned!).


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

My old trainer calls it 'playing' or 'talking' to your horse. For example when I transition to a walk I gently half halt to tell my horse something is going to happen and then I breathe out and transition to walk. Same when I transition up I gently half halt to get him sitting on his hind legs and then trot. Although we are working on more responsiveness to leg.


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Amazing video! I too struggle with when and how much to release and when/how much to have more contact. I grew up riding western pleasure (and frankly mostly trail, not much showing), so this whole contact thing is a whole new ball game for me. I also attribute it to the fact that I'm a control freak. My trainer is always telling me to release because my horse is doing what I want. Thanks for sharing!


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

Rainaisabelle said:


> My old trainer calls it 'playing' or 'talking' to your horse. For example when I transition to a walk I gently half halt to tell my horse something is going to happen and then I breathe out and transition to walk. Same when I transition up I gently half halt to get him sitting on his hind legs and then trot. Although we are working on more responsiveness to leg.



I do something similar, but since I spent so many years working cattle with only one hand on the reins, a simple wiggle of my pinkie cues to the horse to pay attention, another cue is coming. The horse is then ready to respond correctly without hesitation since getting set up for whatever will be asked become automatic.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

I'm going to be very unpopular, I know, so no need to bash me!
But every time I see Charlotte I get the feeling she has arms of iron.

They perform extraordinarily, but I'd still like her to give her horse a little more breathing space.

Carl Hester, Charlotte's trainer, has a soft, tactful connection, and you can see him giving,_ encouraging_ his horse, who is not so magnificent, but I love watching the pair, because it seems to me to be more pure, more-- or exactly  -- the way I'd like to ride.

Example:


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

A rider of Charlotte's caliber, performing at that level is constantly asking, rewarding and correcting the horse - at no time does she just say 'get on with it yourself' because she knows that the horse (Valegro) is always listening for her commands. 
I wouldn't imagine that she's got 'arms of iron' at all - I would say that she's a very strong rider when she needs to be but also one that knows when to soften. 
The horses from the Hester yard aren't trained to work in a false headset, they're trained to have their head where the rider asks for it to be and then keep it there until asked for something else rather than held there by force. You only have to look at how he moves to see that - power, lightness, elevation, energy all in one package.
She has a slightly different approach in the way she rides Utopia - different type of horse


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

OK, I didn't update this thread from Thursdays ride, though did post in Fergies Journey thread.........we had such a good ride, the best I have had with her. Watching the conversation that Charlotte has with Valegro sure helped. I don't expect every ride to go like that, but now I have 'felt it' I am hungry for more. 

Lightbulbs were flashing, progress was made, best compliment of the day "Fergie likes the rider you are today" 

By jove I think I had it, I just hope I can find it again, nice contact, hands quiet but conversational, and I had a different mare.....such a great feeling. We were just working on a simple exercise, riding 20m circles, then squares, then back to circles, each to be ridden accurately with no loss of impulsion, and we GOT it, walk was great, trot ranged from OK, to not bad, and a couple of really really good moments, the highlight of which was a fantastic trot across the diagonal, accurate, free flowing, she was really pushing through from behind, and just nicely balanced....we quit right there, it is the best feeling I have ever had with her, still smiling. Also loved the fact that when we took 'walking breaks' in the session, she REALLY followed the contact down, I'm not kidding felt like a 10 for her free walk right there.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

That's great - there's a difference between busy hands that are doing nothing positive and busy hands that are always asking the horse to do something
Free walk is harder than it sounds - sorts out the horses that are really being ridden into an outline and those that are in a false headset


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

jaydee said:


> That's great - there's a difference between busy hands that are doing nothing positive and busy hands that are always asking the horse to do something


LOL It really feels like doing an awful lot more of an awful lot less! 



jaydee said:


> Free walk is harder than it sounds - sorts out the horses that are really being ridden into an outline and those that are in a false headset


She has always been kind of good at it, but tends to get distracted so will 'pop up' to see what is happening, she usually scores 5.5 to 6, what I felt the other day is light years away from that, she kept the rhythm and swing through her back, and actively took the bit all the way down, hard to describe, but great to feel.....as ever, just got to find it again......that is always the trick in these things


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## Tihannah (Apr 7, 2015)

Love that you started this topic @Golden Horse because I struggle with the same thing every day. Quiet hands and soft contact seem to be my achilles heel. I have yet to figure out a good ask and release with Tess because she never allows the release. It seems no matter how much rein I give her, she still fights against it. The only time she doesn't lean into the contact is when I let go completely. Half of it is her lack of training and the other half is my inability to teach her that, "Okay, THIS is where we need to be."


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Something I was reading somewhere. . . . The writer was trying to demonstrate to someone the whole idea of making our cues to the horse so quiet that the watcher hardly can see anything happening. She said to her student that you want to make your communication to the horse as is you were hiding it from the viewer. So, she rode for a few minutes as if she wer concealing any and all ques to her watcher . . . And Glory be! The horse rode better than she'd ever ridden before. Just the act of thinking about making the cues so quiet that they'd be invisible (hidden) made her ride with the softest hands, to which the horse responded beuatifully.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Tihannah said:


> Love that you started this topic @*Golden Horse* because I struggle with the same thing every day. Quiet hands and soft contact seem to be my achilles heel. I have yet to figure out a good ask and release with Tess because she never allows the release. It seems no matter how much rein I give her, she still fights against it. The only time she doesn't lean into the contact is when I let go completely. Half of it is her lack of training and the other half is my inability to teach her that, "Okay, THIS is where we need to be."


It is hard, it has been easier in a way with Fergie because she is so responsive, with Gibbs and then Troy they were both so heavy that I felt I was constantly battling them. Maybe now having had Fergie show me how do do it I might be able to ride Gibbs through it. Maybe you need even more of an ask for her, so she gets the 'give' that follows. 

Good luck, I totally understand the frustration, but you do have a good coach to help you through it...


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

I was actually thinking about this last night as I was thinking about how we all adjust when we ride different horses and it completely changes the way you ride.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Rainaisabelle said:


> I was actually thinking about this last night as I was thinking about how we all adjust when we ride different horses and it completely changes the way you ride.


Well hopefully we all adjust! Sadly there are people who think that every horse should adapt to the rider, and not the other way around...


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> Rainaisabelle said:
> 
> 
> > I was actually thinking about this last night as I was thinking about how we all adjust when we ride different horses and it completely changes the way you ride.
> ...


The reason I was thinking about adaption is because I feel in the last 7 months of riding Roy I have adapted and am starting to get a feel of what he understands.

I think riders need to adjust to the horse within reason, it is a partnership after all, so I do believe the horse has to adapt as well but as riders we need to set them up to be able to adapt to the change.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

jaydee said:


> ...
> The horses from the Hester yard aren't trained to work in a false headset, they're trained to have their head where the rider asks for it to be and then keep it there until asked for something else rather than held there by force. ...


First, I agree Charlotte's an amazing, fabulous rider; but I don't think she's beyond improvement.

In what I've quoted, I feel there's something, well, kind of "false" if you ask your horse to put his head somewhere. . .shouldn't the head follow what the body is doing? I know the "look" of dressage, and many other sports today, require a tucked chin. I'm not the only one who thinks it looks unnatural; and uncomfortable. That horses of yesteryear couldn't win today may well be, aside from breeding, the fact that their horses DID look more natural.

I mention it because how we use our hands depends on what we want: an open, forward-moving horse, or a moving horse _in spite of _a tucked chin. You don't have to force a horse to keep his head down or in; you can train him to do it, and to stay there, with a delicate reminder, even when it would benefit him raise it. The disadvantages in asking for ANY head position is more noticeable, perhaps, in ordinary horses not blessed with heavenly movement and athleticism.

Edit: my own horse will, on the rare occasions when all goes right, have an almost-vertical face because the moments of perfect posture require it. Very exciting when it happens!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say Beling so taking a guess
I'm sure that Charlotte would be the first to say that she's still learning - she's always taking lessons and advice and Carl Hester is a very hard task master
The video is a high level dressage test that demands the very height of collection not someone enjoying a hack around the trails - I don't see anywhere that Valegro's nose is 'tucked in' - he's rarely behind the vertical. 
She isn't holding him in that position on a vice like grip but she places him there and the length of the reins ask him to stay there - if you look at this video at roughly 2:42 when she's finished the test she lengthens her reins and he immediately follows the bit down and relaxes - which is what he should do - but not what he would be wanted to do in the middle of a test - other than when asked to do his free walk
That frame he's working in isn't about a fixed headset or looking pretty, it's about creating 'energy' that comes from behind and then 'containing' that energy between your legs and your hands to give you impulsion and elevation
Attached a pic from 1952 - not that different to today


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## Tihannah (Apr 7, 2015)

I loved in this video of Charlotte and Valegro how a few times during the test, she reaches down to give him a pat for a well executed movement. That's something you often don't see till the end of a ride. These two work beautifully together and you can see that nothing is forced. I love it.


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

The picture of Liz Hartel (silver in '52, and she had polio from the knees down), is WAY different than today. Additionally that contact would have been considered quite agreessive then (and with her teacher who I also rode with). Nevertheless, at least Liz has the curb on the inside, not the outside which CD and CH have (and which would had never been thought of, or ever yet allowed). When there is a steady compressed posture with unceasing torque on the curb the horse is holding the horse in a fixed posture (esp when they both recommend l/r actions to keep the closed). Most importantly with the pix of Liz upper arms are funtioning as part of the trunk, which allows for finesse, whereas when the upper arms out in front of the trunk are what creates instability and a harsh hand (hand riding vs nunaced seat riding). When a horse is in a double there should be no steady torque on the curb. The two bits are meant for totally different uses, and the result in the horse should be in lightness and self carriage. So, that makes may standards for tact and timing of the aids much different. 

Quiet hands are the result of proper body alignment, upper arm positoining as part of the trunk, yet able to follow the bascule of the walk and canter. And always straight line from elbow to horse's mouth. In addition the rider must understand the development of the rein effects and of how (the many different type of) half halts are developed (not holding and driving).


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

worth reposting:

Quiet hands are the result of proper body alignment, upper arm  positoining as part of the trunk, yet able to follow the bascule of the walk and canter. And always straight line from elbow to horse's mouth. In addition the rider must understand the development of the rein effects and of how (the many different type of) half halts are developed (not holding and driving).


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> worth reposting:
> 
> Quiet hands are the result of proper body alignment, upper arm positoining as part of the trunk, yet able to follow the bascule of the walk and canter. And always straight line from elbow to horse's mouth. In addition the rider must understand the development of the rein effects and of how (the many different type of) half halts are developed (not holding and driving).



Just a thought, if it is worth reposting, then it is worth reposting as a quote, thus giving proper recognition to the person who said it?


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

She doesnt need to give recognition...it is a traditional approach that all should follow. mho


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

just me being lazy. my bad.


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