# Where did buckskin come from in Morgans?



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Morgans have LOTS of colors!! Cream, silver, sabino, etc.

As far as answering your question I have no idea but I think google would help.

Morgan Colors- Your Information Station for Morgan Color Genetics and Color History (I don't know if this is exclusive to Morgans but it's definitely aimed at them and lots of pics!)


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

outcrossing before DNA testing.

What is a Morgan


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

from the link I posted above-

"All of the various cream dilutes in the Morgan breed originate from the following four sources:

*1. The LU Sheep Ranch*, where the color is possibly coming from Night Tide.
a. _Dawnglo_ (Night Tide X Ishawooa), 1939 palomino mare. Found in Californio, San Willidust, and Tio Lalo descendants.
b. _Carmel Snow_ (Night Tide X Kaycee), 1939 palomino mare. Found in horses of Pineland descent
c._ Luxury_ (Night Tide X Mallow), 1939 buckskin mare (registered as dun). Found in the Aquila's prefixed colorfuls, Dickie's Pride, Desert Sands, and Yellow Bird descendants.
d._ Luellen_ (Night Tide X Ethete), 1939 smoky black mare. Found in descendants of Morgan Gold, Nugget Hanneman, and Rusty Walker.

*2. The Cross Ranch*, cream dilution originating from the X registered dams of these two horses.
a._ Ketchum_ (Joe Lewis X Du Noir Strip), 1950 smoky black stallion. Found primarily in the many horses of Chingadero descent.
b._ Buck_ (Imperial X Nellie), 1930 buckskin mare. Found the numerous lines of descent from her daughters, Yellow Girl and Smokie.

*3. Gwenie (Golden Jubilee X Gwenalan)* 1951 palomino mare. Gwenie got her cream dilution from her sire, a palomino X registered son of Jubilee King. Gwenie's color line comes down to us through horses of the Jan Mabie Pace lines.

*4. Cotton Hill Daisy (Amigo Mick X Daisette)*, 1949 palomino mare. The source of Cotton Hill Daisy's cream gene is unknown, but may have come from her granddam Madonna, a black daughter of Go Hawk (black, no apparent cream dilute lines) and Red Ruby (who may have been some sort of cream dilute, misregistered as chestnut- her dam, Ruby, is also the maternal great grand-dam of Night Tide). Cotton Hill Daisy's color line is represented by horses from Sunup Neptune lines."


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I haven't done any further research but it's my understanding the cream (and other "unusual" colors) are frowned upon in the show ring. If you look at the show types they are even more predominantly bay.

Therefore I would assume the Saddlebred blood is NOT where that comes from. The colors are uncommon in show type but more common in the old style and I know several registered foundation horses that have cream. That said I don't believe the colors are accepted in Lippits.

GabCreek Farm: Gab Creek Golden Vaquero, Palomino Foundation Morgan Stallion


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Whoops, meant to add- what about silver for example which isn't unheard of in Morgans and is VERY rare in Saddlebreds and only recently discovered.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Thanks, Yogi! Didn't mean to send you on a huge search, but this information is all fascinating.

I also didn't mean to stir up a breed debate, so hope no one gets offended by that!! 

I found the article about the Saddlebred infusion really interesting- went back through my mare's pedigree and she does have the stallion "Bennington" about five generations back. Not so surprising, her breeder focuses on the show ring (my girl did not make the cut!).

I loved looking at all the colorful Morgan examples in the first link you posted, but I think for me, I'm more drawn to the classic bay that I'm used to seeing.

Thanks for all the great links that have been posted here, I learned a lot!


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

I was talking to a Morgan breeder about this recently, and she said that it's a trendy color in California so I guess maybe that's where it started? Go further east and you will see mainly bay Morgans, an occasional chestnut and black Morgan, but rarely other colors.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Yeah I didn't get anywhere fact wise but my theory is no lol

"*Description* *of the Foundation Morgan Horse*
The sire line must trace to Justin Morgan (very top line of pedigree)
Horse must not have any saddlebred outcrosses after 1930*
Offspring are catagorized as 'foundation' as long as both parents qualify

*Eligibility*
Mares, stallions and geldings
*No saddlebred after 1930 means no horse foaled after 1930 with a saddlebred 
parent. The one exception is the registered offspring of the saddlebred 
mare Ladelle. She had foals, including full siblings, both before and 
after the 1930 date that were registered as Morgans. So, the decision was 
made to allow those from Ladelle as "Foundation"."

Ladelle was a bay from what I found. (Well is says "b" and she is clearly not cream unless she's smokey black which is unlikely) Ladelle Saddlebred on all breed pedigree.

It is a fact that there was a lot of intentional and legal and also a lot of "sneaky" crossbreeding with Saddlebreds. Which is why you get horses that look like this
"Mentor," GCh stallion born 1945


and this

"Mastroianni," 4x WCh stallion



I don't know how old he is there but on pic alone I'd say yearling Saddlebred!

There's quite the extreme between Lippitt, foundation, "old style" and the modern type.

Personally I like the old style but it's part of loving the breed. They did start off as mutts after all though I think the Saddlebred infusion has made them into something they are not in some cases.

My boy was an ex-Saddleseat champ and more old style though he liked to pose like a show horse lol. He was a liver chestnut.

I am also curious though I wasn't able to find out for sure lol

There are several breeders of breeds with "crop out colors" that like to focus on the colors. Not a bad thing as long as you don't lose the type and quality!


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

This is my mare's sire, Apollo's Reflection, he's not quite as refined as what you posted above but I don't know, I don't love this look.










His top side seems to have only Morgans with a few TBs way back, but his dam side has Bennington, who had the Saddlebred dam. I love looking at these old pedigrees, when you get back to the 1800s, the horses start to have names like "EW Hughes' Bay Mare" or "Johnson Mare."

I do love learning more about the Foundation and Lippitt breeding and think that once my mare retires, I'll probably be drawn to one of the old style Morgans for a next riding horse. Hoping we have several years until I have to think about that though!


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

egrogan said:


> This is my mare's sire, Apollo's Reflection, he's not quite as refined as what you posted above but I don't know, I don't love this look.
> 
> His top side seems to have only Morgans with a few TBs way back, but his dam side has Bennington, who had the Saddlebred dam. I love looking at these old pedigrees, when you get back to the 1800s, the horses start to have names like "EW Hughes' Bay Mare" or "Johnson Mare."
> 
> I do love learning more about the Foundation and Lippitt breeding and think that once my mare retires, I'll probably be drawn to one of the old style Morgans for a next riding horse. Hoping we have several years until I have to think about that though!


Hey - our Morgans are related; they are both Upwey Ben Don offspring 

I've also done some research on the different Morgan lines; interesting info.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I love "Captain Morgan".

But Barrington is half Saddlebred? He is plenty stocky. I do see Upwey King Peavine who is on the Foundation Morgan's banned list lol. He does look it.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

It is interesting also to note that Morgans have pretty interesting expression of colours, particularly the red varieties. The "black" chestnuts in particular are quite interesting. This website is a good place to get lots of great visuals of the colours within the Morgan gene pool: Morgan Colors- Your Information Station for Morgan Color Genetics and Color History


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Lol I just posted the same website! I love that site!

Interesting that no one has further opinions on the actual question.

Yes you have the bay show horses but when you really look there is a LOT of variety.

Rode a gorgeous foundation buckskin once. Beautiful, beautiful dark sooty color.

My own boy was a liver chestnut as I said but a real true liver color, like this guy:









I feel a lot of "liver chestnut" really aren't a true liver.


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## dunmorgans (Mar 18, 2015)

The truth about the cream gene in the Morgan breed is two-fold. The first buckskin Morgan that I'm aware of was Buckskin Wheeler, who was given registration number 41 or something low like that. So in the beginning, it was totally acceptable. But later on, "color" fell out of favor and was gradually eliminated by peer pressure.

But, then the Morgan registry had a dilemma ... their registration numbers fell dangerously low after the Depression, wars, etc. So they opened their books up to part-bred Morgan. This meant that horses with some Saddlebred blood (with documented Morgan blood in their pedigrees) as well as Western and Midwestern part-breds were allowed into the registry for a short time.

This period (I don't have the years handy, sorry) is when the cream gene was allowed back into the registry. 

Just to clarify, it was there originally, then it disappeared, but came back into the breed "legally" during the registry's open period.

From what other breeds it came back to the breed from, I could really only guess as it wasn't from just one source.


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## piglet (Oct 2, 2012)

I want to thank each and every one of you who posted the pictures and links.

Forget the "Like" button - where's the "Love!" button?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I don't think anyone really knows the breeding of the first Morgan and its likely he had a mix of many of the breeds present in the US at the time that were brought here by early settlers from their home countries - such as the Welsh and Connemara or even remnants of the Spanish horses all have 'buckskin' colours in their breed characteristics


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

Agreed jaydee. Some Morgans have more of a baroque look to them which also made me think Spanish mixed with some type of hardy English breed.


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

This is a really interesting thread!

I am probably the odd one out, as I really like the "modern" Morgan. Of course, a Morgan should still be recognizable as such, but I like the size and refinement.
The second pic that Yogiwick posted is a bit too much Saddlebred for my taste, but "Mentor" I think is absolutely gorgeous.
My guy is only half Morgan (other half is Paint), but his dad is a modern type. Works really well for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dunmorgans (Mar 18, 2015)

egrogan said:


> I am so used to the classic little bay Morgan, but every now and then I see a gorgeous buckskin pop up on one of the Facebook Morgan sales sites. Curious where this color came from in a breed full of bays.


A few decades ago that was probably quite true. But these days the "colorful" Morgans are spread all over the USA. In fact, the majority of the early dun dilute Morgans were foaled in New York state, as an example.

Right here in Michigan there have been many palomino and buckskin Morgans born, including a few with some blue spots in their eyes. The silver dapple Morgans got a foothold in the Indiana area.

Yes, the East coast show Morgan crowd has been quite resistant, but there have been those who chose to go with it, including some show lines in Ohio that I know about. And it's true that breeders of the ultra pure Lippitt Morgan are not proponents of the colorful trends. But there are colorful Morgans spread all over these days.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

So dunmorgan, I have to ask, do you have any beautiful colorful Morgans to share with us?


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## dunmorgans (Mar 18, 2015)

I wonder if you were asking for specific Morgans horses' names who founded the lines of cream dilute colors currently in the breed? If so, I do have a few names for you.

One mare brought into the breed during the open period was Yellow Girl X-07370. Foaled 1942. Palomino. Her dam was an unregistered buckskin mare simply identified as "Buck". She was sired by registered Morgan stallion, Imperial (Seal Brown). And her dam was an unregistered mare called Nellie (dark brown), sired by a stallion, Taters, said to be part Morgan, but no color listed. Because more than one grandget of Tater was determined to be a cream dilute color, near as we can figure, Tater was likely a buckskin, and in this case Nellie was possibly a brown buckskin or possibly even a smoky black mistaken for brown. While we can't 100% pinpoint the source, other than we know Yellow Girl was palomino and her dam buckskin.

Another line goes back thru Morgan Gold 8812. Palomino stallion, foaled 1943. It's a bit of a mystery because his sire was well photographed and documented to be chestnut. His dam, Luellen 05547, registered as black, only produced the one dilute offspring. So was she not black? Or was Morgan Gold's sire not really his sire and his parentage was mistakenly recorded wrong? We have no way to know what happened here.

Those are two that I know of off the top of my head. Hope that helps answer your question a little more specifically.


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## dunmorgans (Mar 18, 2015)

egrogan said:


> So dunmorgan, I have to ask, do you have any beautiful colorful Morgans to share with us?


Sadly, at this time ... No 

However, in the past I have owned 3 different black Morgans, one bay, and leased a buckskin. Before that I had a lovely buckskin QH mare.

I hope to have a horse again one day and preferrably a Morgan. Although I have a dear friend with Morgans and Morabs and I have always loved her horses, so one of her Morabs would be great, too!


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## dunmorgans (Mar 18, 2015)

Oh, my username is rather deceptive, isn't it?! Although I have never owned a dun Morgan, I did spend umpteen zillion hours obsessed with the study of the dun gene and that started with the dun Morgans horses.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

dunmorgans said:


> Oh, my username is rather deceptive, isn't it?! Although I have never owned a dun Morgan, I did spend umpteen zillion hours obsessed with the study of the dun gene and that started with the dun Morgans horses.


Ha, yes, that was what I was getting it. As you can see, there are a lot of Morgan lovers on Horse Forum, and we love pictures!


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## dunmorgans (Mar 18, 2015)

When I get a chance I'll have to upload a couple of pics of my past horses.


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## dunmorgans (Mar 18, 2015)

Okay, here is a collage of the buckskin Morgan mare that I had on lease for a couple of years. 

Saint Claire (aka Kat)
Sire: Black Panther (smoky black)
Dam: Miss Tee Hawk (chestnut)



To keep it on topic, her cream gene came thru her sire's side. Black Panther was sired by Chingadero who we have determined by his progeny to have almost certainly been a smoky cream and homozygous for black. Photos show him to be "all white", so no doubt that he was double cream dilute.

Chingadero got his paternal cream gene from his sire, who got it from his dam, Du Noir Strip line which goes back three more generations to Taters, the unregistered "believed to be buckskin" horse I posted about earlier.
And his maternal cream gene came from his dam's dam, Yellow Girl, the part bred palomino mare mentioned earlier as well.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There's someone in CT that breeds different coloured Morgans
Windfield Morgan Farm - Home

I like the sturdier type myself - and since the original horse was able to out-pull other horses he must have been a very strong little animal


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## dunmorgans (Mar 18, 2015)

Oh yes! I'm familiar with Lee Lyons and she does have some very lovely, full bodied Morgans of all colors! I'm with you, I like the fuller bodied Morgans as well.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

dunmorgans said:


> I wonder if you were asking for specific Morgans horses' names who founded the lines of cream dilute colors currently in the breed? If so, I do have a few names for you.
> 
> One mare brought into the breed during the open period was Yellow Girl X-07370. Foaled 1942. Palomino. Her dam was an unregistered buckskin mare simply identified as "Buck". She was sired by registered Morgan stallion, Imperial (Seal Brown). And her dam was an unregistered mare called Nellie (dark brown), sired by a stallion, Taters, said to be part Morgan, but no color listed. Because more than one grandget of Tater was determined to be a cream dilute color, near as we can figure, Tater was likely a buckskin, and in this case Nellie was possibly a brown buckskin or possibly even a smoky black mistaken for brown. While we can't 100% pinpoint the source, other than we know Yellow Girl was palomino and her dam buckskin.
> 
> ...


It could very well be that the mare had a cream gene and luck of the draw that Morgan Gold received it. A single cream gene is not visible on black, so the parentage could be correct.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

dunmorgans said:


> Oh yes! I'm familiar with Lee Lyons and she does have some very lovely, full bodied Morgans of all colors! I'm with you, I like the fuller bodied Morgans as well.


The one thing I do notice in Lee's horses is that they do have a very Welsh C look to them.
If that colouring does come from past welsh bloodlines in the original horse I wonder if by breeding for those colours they will also be going back to something that's more like the welsh pony and less like the Morgan horse?


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## dunmorgans (Mar 18, 2015)

I don't know where the truly original lines of color came from (Buckskin Wheeler foaled in 1822), but the ones that brought it back into the breed (circa 1940) were quite likely of Western stock horse blood. Some Morgan people may not be tickled by that, but the horses were on ranches out west where the QH breed was being established, so it only makes sense that some QH type horses were involved.


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## dunmorgans (Mar 18, 2015)

Oh, and I do think Welsh could be an amazing cross with a fairly traditional Morgan!


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