# Road to the Cornhusker Classic Schooling Show



## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Thursday morning and I'm already getting a nervous stomach. I don't know why, but I am. I need to shake it off or Cinny is going to be nervous too. Double checked my show trunk for stuff, decided to buy myself some time by using my older show bridle that has been packaged and is clean and ready to go... instead of my other bridle that is dirty. I'll probably give that one a quick sponge and bring it as a "spare." The judges have approved a fundraiser for the whole weekend called "letting it all hang out".... buy a purple forelock ribbon and braids are optional, although it's a schooling show on Friday anyway. Now I'm waiting to find out what time we can access stalls, if I can get to them this afternoon I can go ahead and set up my tack stall and not worry about it. My friend is trailering Cin over when she gets off work so it would be nice to not have to deal with tack at that time if I can help it.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Cinny is the dream horse he was yesterday until Tomorrow night when we go home. Then he can be whatever horse he wants to be  Will Check in later.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Just let Cinny out to graze with his friend Cera. He decided to roll in the grass... which I think is much better than rolling in the dirt. But he hurt himself, wouldn't you know it... he gashed himself under his right ear  No stitches or anything needed he just now has a bloddy pink spot showing through his beautiful black.

He's got his lunch, he's had his Uguard and he's now chillin.... He is very mellow today. I think this is a good sign.


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## PumpkinzMyBaby22 (Jul 5, 2009)

Good luck! Crossing fingers that he will be traveling the way he did yesterday for you. Are you going to be getting photos to share???


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Training 1 done. I was really nervous. Cinny's halt and salute sucked, stretchy circle wasn't a circle and he picked up a wrong canter lead. Scored 56.6 not bad for first time.


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## OuttatheBlue (Dec 8, 2011)

Any update on the show?


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Well, I botched the Training 3 test.... That's what I get for not finding a caller. So we didn't do so well on that one... 56.6

Overall.... I don't think we will be going to any more Dressage shows, at least not in this area and definitely NOT if Hardesty is judging. Judges just don't like Cinny. I know some people on here will be mad at me for saying this but it was made clear this weekend that they truly have favorite breeds or people, at least the judge on Friday did. When my horse goes around and performs his tests in a solid, obedient way with balance and rhythm, even if he isn't quite as "on the bit" as he should be but doing EVERYTHING I asked him to do and even stretched down in his stretchy circles and free walk.. and then an Arabian with perfect Arabian head set comes in, bolts out of his halt/salute, throws a tanty in a corner including bucking like a bronc, rearing and thrashing his head side to side and almost dismounting it's rider, then breaks into a canter every 2 or 3 strides that he should be trotting gets 10 points higher than docile, obedient Cinny..... then I can't help but have this opinion. Also scoring higher was a Friesian that bucked every time it was asked to canter and had a rider who was very unstable in the saddle and bounced and popped out of it during his entire ride, and an OTTB that threw 2 tantys during it's test and bucked and kicked at the rails every time it got close to them (it received a 72 btw).

What happened to the days when overall importance were the SAFE horses. It seems it doesn't matter anymore weather the horses are safe rides.... Let them throw tantys, let them buck, let them bolt, let them break from a trot... so long as they are on the bit, round and look oh so pretty while they are doing so..... Nothing matters anymore to judges except the horse being round and pretty.... I thought at training level, most Dressage horses are still developing topline and the ability to be round anyway... but they should have impulsion, balance, and obedience. I didn't know that boltin, bucking, rearing, kicking, and thrashing it's head side to side while rearing were signs of an obedient horse, but I guess it it.

BTW, I had several people that I competed against also say I got jipped because THEY even thought Cinny and I had much better rides than they did, and couldn't believe that they scored higher.


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## robohog (Nov 24, 2011)

Well i know you both looked great out there and i am proud of both of you. I as well feel the judging was a bit skewed.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Have you ever had someone video your tests Cinny? I have found it the single most useful thing I have done, watching my tests from teh judges point of view makes me realize ho much I let down G Man and where I lose the extra points here and there.

I used to think that there were favourites, I now realize that a lot of the time I suck. Having realized that though I am working twice as hard to improve:wink:


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## robohog (Nov 24, 2011)

I will be one of the first to say our horse still has along way to go and hes not perfect. I guess the thing that really bugs me is how a horse that bucks going in to the cantor or hits the rail and flips out and has to start the last move over again get 1st or second place? Is it because the horse scores so high at other things, bucking or flipping out dosent hurt their overall score? I just guess a flipping out horse is not as bad as a horse that makes flat circles!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Well that is the thing, say horse A is a kind of steady, does a kind of OK test sort of boy, he will score a 5 maybe, for sufficient, 2 elements done in an OK manner will give him 10 marks.

Horse B is on the edge of sanity, 

has a fit on his 20m circle bucks a couple of times on his nicely shaped circle he may score a 1 Very bad, but then goes on to do a stunning free walk, scores a 9.

Both horses have scored 10 on two movements.

0 – Not Executed
1 – Very Bad
2 – Bad
3 – Fairly Bad
4 – Insufficient
5 - Sufficient
6 – Satisfactory
7 – Fairly good
8 – Good
9 – Very Good
10 - Excellent




OK now we come to the possibly more subjective area, the collective scores.

*Gaits:* the freedom and regularity of the horse’s movement.
*Impulsion:* the horse’s desire to move forward, elasticity of steps, roundness.
*Submission:* the horse’s attention and confidence. Harmony with rider, lightness of movements and acceptance of the bit.
*Rider’s seat and position:* correctness and effect of aids.

Here again we can see that Horse A may score mid point on his gaits, roundness and submission, and the riders mark, well depends on the rider of course.

Horse B may have shown greater freedom and regularity, when he wasn't being an ****, probably scored well for impulsion, may have dropped a ton on submission, but if the rider did a stunning job in working through a horse with issues, rather than passengering a so so horse around they will score well.


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## robohog (Nov 24, 2011)

Golden, thank you very much for that. Really. I definitely can see that line of thinking.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

We do video Cin, and I know he is FAR from perfect. I agree with most of the judges comments. Cinny is unrefined, does not bit up properly and is very inconsistent with rounding. He rounds some days, other days he doesn't... show day he didn't. Watching his video I know he is NOT worthy of anything above 65... in fact anything above 60 would be a stretch by what I see. I DO NOT disagree with that, just to let you all know that. What I disagree with is the horses that do not perform safely and repeatedly do something nasty during their test scoring higher because I don't think that is an obedient and submissive horse. At least Cinny is obedient and submissive even if he has his problems with not knowing what to do with his head quite yet and doesn't have much topline developed.

We also video'd tanty horses....which I won't post because the owner did not know I even taped them, and I do not have their permission to post... But I will narrate a bit.


Cinny, training test 2

Horse comes in, steady but head up a little, not round. 

Halts for salute but anticipates moving forward and trots on before asked.

tracking right at C bends fully into corner but nicks a board, continues forward in rhythmic trot. Horse not round but attempts to round down periodically.Appears to not know what to do with his head. Goes back and forth between being behind or in front of bit.

At B trots a 20m circle. Balanced a rhythmic, a little flat on one side. Horse still appears to not know what to do with his head and doesn't travel round.

KXM change rein. Horse rhythmic and rounds down during whole diagnal. Does not change rhythm with rein change but does pop head up slightly.

C horse moves smoothly into canter. Correct lead, 20m circle at E is round.

At V transitions into a nice trot, horse playing with being round but not consistent with it.

At A stretchy circle is more 15m instead of 20 M. Horse stretching down and blows out his nose several times. when reins are taken up he pops his head up and shallows back.

smooth transition to walk. FXM free walk is smooth and rhythmic. Horse's neck slightly curved with nose at knee level. Again horse shallows upon rein contact.

Trot transition at C smooth, not quite on the bit or round. Goes back and forth between being under the bit and over, but not correctly on the bit.

E 20M round and balanced circle, horse continues to be in front of or behind bit.

FXH change of rein, rhythm not interupted, horse still playing with where he wants his head to be

Canter at B correct lead, not as smooth as other transitions. bend and round circle

A transition to Halt smooth, staight down center Halt is at X. Horse again moves forward before asked. 

THE ARABIAN

Right off the bat refuses to come into the arena at A and throws a mini tanty. Rider smacks him with dressage stick and he jumps into arena trots down center line and halts.Before the rider is ready he does a prance and breaks into a canter and then is pulled back to a trot before hitting C. 

Tracks right at C goes deep into the corner stops, rears thrashing it's head side to side does a little spin and a buck and then continues toward B with nice roundness and frame.

20m circle at B is round however the horse breaks into a canter every 2 or 3 strides throughout the circle. nice frame, horse on the bit and round.

KXM trot is rhythmic horse breaks into canter when rider changes rein. Again, on the bit properly and round.

Canter 20M circle at E wrong lead, rider brings to trot and asks again...wrong lead, trot then wrong lead rider gives up. Horse stargazing the whole circle.

Transtition to trot nice. Round, rhythmic and beautiful movement

Stretchy circle at A horse yanks reins and wildly breaks to canter and finishes circle at canter.

transitin to walk nice. Horse settles down, nice frame and movement, playing with bit and drooling.

Free walk FXM Again we decide to do a stargazing canter instead of freewalk.

Trot at C, nice transition, on the bit nice frame, very pretty.

20M circle at E Horse breaks to canter several times, nice frame and roundness using his back.

FXH change rein, very nice, elegant looking smooth. best movement of the test.

Canter at B, correct lead however horse bucks 2 times when asked. Horse throwing nose down to knees and appears to be attempting to run through the bridle or buck.

Trot transition a little rough with some crow hops. Straight down center line halting at X. Horse standing but tossing his head up and down.

Rider attempts a free walk out but horse breaks to trot.

Cinny's score 55.3
Arabians score 62 something

THIS IS WHAT I THINK IS UNFAIR. How the heck did the arab get THAT kind of score with THAT kind of ride when Cinny's only flaws were that he was "fussy on the bit" "needs to develop topline" and "inconsistant connection" those were the judges comments..... I don't get it. This is what makes me mad.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Without seeing the tests I really don't know the answer, but you know what, dressage is about you and your horse, not everyother horse in the contest. If YOUR horse scored 50 in his last test and 51 in this one you hae progressed. If you get the best stretchy circle you have ever had then you have won!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I agree with GH, some great advice.

Honestly, and I hate to say it, but right now CW you sound like a spoilt child crying about not winning the blue ribbon. With Cinny's health and now your attitude I think it would be best for you not to show this year at all. You are obviously not having fun, not willing to learn and not willing to be humble and accept that you're not going to win anything until you put in a lot more work. I think even taking Cinny to the show was selfish because he was not fit enough for 3 tests and has just started treatment for a serious condition.

Putting it in perspective, there was a less than 6% difference between your scores and a 62% is still nothing to write home about. The average between a 4 and an 8 is a 60% and a steady test worth 5s and 6s averages lower. If you want to be judged based on how steady your horse is then try HUS or english pleasure. Dressage is judged by the movement and it's not going to change. The other test would have reflected the unsteadyness in the collectives, but in general the collectives should average to the same as the rest of the test and will not boost or lower your score. 

To answer your question "How did I get that score with that ride?" read the directives at the top of the training level test: " To confirm that the horse's muscles are supple and loose and that it moves freely forward in a clear and steady rhythm, accepting contact with the bit". Now read the directives for each movement: "Balance, smoothness, quality" are words that appear a lot. No "obedience" marks, no "steadyness" marks. That is how your test did so poorly. Read the directives for the level in your rule book and on the test before ****ing on the judge and your competitors.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

@Anabel

You need to READ CAREFULLY what people write, especially if you are going to go so far as to call the a Spoilt Child, or say they are crying over something... seriously. Or are YOU illiterate????

I DID NOT say "How did I get that score with that ride." what I said was How did THEY (meaning the arabian) get the score they did with THEIR ride. Big big difference.

I ALSO AGREED that my horse and I deserved the scores that we got. I know my horse has a lot to develop, I know that he is not going to "win ribbons" etc etc. Again, you need to read.

What I don't get is why unsafe horses get the scores that they do, especially the Arab after it's ride.... that was all.

And also YOU DO NOT KNOW MY HORSE. Unless you go down to my barn and look at my horse and talk to my vet, and discuss with my trainer you have no grounds to say whether or not my horse is fit or not fit for something. PERIOD. You have no call to say anything about MY decision to show my horse when I HAVE discussed it with my vet and my trainer and they both agreed that he would be fine....AND HE WAS. In fact when he got home he played with his friends for the rest of the night...if the show was that hard on him he would have simply sulked in a corner because that is what he does when he's tired or not feeling well.

I know you mean well, but sometimes you can be very overbearing and uncaring and a know it all. I do admit you have a great amount of knowledge and you have a lot to offer BUT... you also assume you know the COMPLETE situation when you don't and you act like you KNOW everybody's horse and their abilities better than they, their vet and their trainers do.... and I'm sorry, unless you have had experience with those people and horses IN PERSON... you don't.

I do have a certain amount of respect for you and your knowledge but sometimes you really need to tone down and not verbally attack people just because they don't follow YOUR advice to the T.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

And your reaction to Annabels comments Cinny have just confirmed to me that you are behaving like a spoiled child.

Annabel is working on the information that you have supplied on this thread and elsewhere, and you reaction is out of order.

Given your response to the show and to Annabel I really would suggest you ask yourself if dressage is the discipline for you. Once again, unless it makes you smile, unless you get joy in your own ride and in your partnership with your horse you shouldn't be doing it. When dressage becomes about your scores in relation to others, rather than your score in relation to your previous scores. When it seems that bitching about others outweighs the joy of your horse most generously trying for you, then you are in it for the wrong reason.

Here is just one definition of clssical dressage

Classical dressage can be translated, "fine training" - capriole, piaffe, levade - yet it’s more than that. It defines quality in horsemanship at every stage, even at, and most importantly at, the "lowest levels". Classical dressage is about aspiring to perfection; perfect communication, perfect balance, perfect coordination, perfect feel, perfect timing, perfect harmony. Relentlessly striving to improve skill and understanding and raising the bar, yet never being satisfied that we, as riders, have truly achieved perfection on our part. We can always be more subtle in our aiding. We can always have more feel. However, this striving for perfection is not just so we can pat ourselves on the back, thinking we’re somehow superior. It is truly because when we strive to ride better, it’s beneficial to the horse. The purpose behind classical dressage is to improve the experience for the horse. Characteristics of classical dressage are, imperceptible aids given by the rider, precision and light contact with the bit that results from gymnastically increasing the bending and weight carrying ability of the haunches and an obvious expression of enjoyment in the horse. Horses that are strong enough and riders who are interested can go on to the extremely collected movements and airs above the ground. *That said, most horses are not that strong, and many riders are not interested in pursuing dressage to that extent, however, they can still uphold classical values when they ride their best for the good of their horses. *


Nothing there about the competition, it is all about partnership between you and your horse, especially important for me, the last part.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

You come on here, post after your ride, complain about the judging, say how you don't want to show anymore especially for the judge at the show because judges don't like your horse. Then you proceed to flame other competitors for showing up with horses who may or may not have issues in the ring you don't know about and may or may not be ridden by professionals, presumably to overcome said issues and then they beat you. 
It's called a schooling show because people, sometimes trainers too, come to school horses. Talk about judging other people and how they and the horses they ride do in the ring without having a clue of what the horse's issues may or may not be.

You paid your money, rode your tests, now go home and be happy. Don't flame the judges and other competitors because they placed people higher than you or did better than you.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

HER REACTION IS OUT OF ORDER.

She did not read what I said and criticized me for thinking I said something I didn't.
She called me a name
She assumed my horse is unfit and criticized me for taking him to a show when she does not know my horse, nor did she consult my vet or trainer as I did.

Although irespect her as a person and as I said,I believe she has much to offer....she should not assume she knows more about someones horse than the horse’s vet,trainer and owner about its fitness and ability to perform.

And asking how a horse that misbehaves badly yet gets higher scores than a non misbehaving horse by someone trying to understand the way judges think a bit better is a legitimate question. Asking why something is the way it is and admitting you don't understand should not be reason to be called a spoilt brat or any of the other things. I never said my horse did not deserve his score. I even said I agreed with the judges comments.

You guys make it seem like Dressage is some secret society thing that you can't ask about if you don't fully understand why something is the way it is without some sort of snub or something.

And Anabel has a habit of verbally condemning me and other people if we don't follow her advice..... I kind of get tired of it. Just because someone on here decides my horse is unfitwithiut knowing or seeing him, doesn't mean I'm going to agree with that person. What I did was consult my vet AND my trainer, he was assessed the night before the show and deemed fit enough to do the three tests. In fact both my trainer and vet think that a 2 hour trail ride is far more strenuous on a horse than 3 test that are less than 4 minutes each, especially with the 2-4 hour breaks between them.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I didn't flame anyone.I voiced an opinion and then later asked how and why. Stating that someones horse was bucking and rearing is not flaming,its a statement.asking why its more acceptable than a horse that doesn't do such things is a legitimate question.

Calling someone a spoilt brat is flaming. Saying someones horse is unfit when you have not seen it or spoken with its vet or trainer is not your call and has nothing to do with the question.

If you don't know why a horse that does that gets more points than a horse that doesn't then you dont have to resppond with anything. Calling me a spoilt brat and saying my horse is unfitreally did nothing to help me understand anything that I was asking about.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> HER REACTION IS OUT OF ORDER.
> 
> She did not read what I said and criticized me for thinking I said something I didn't. See below, I think you ,may not of read her post
> 
> ...


My responses in red


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I fail to see an answer the question. I explained both rides and asked why the seemingly worse ride with the bucking horse that seems unsafe would get more points. Instead its repeated that I'm a spoilt brat. 

My vet said the trail ride is ore strenuous than 3 training level tests that last only a few minutes for ANY horse, not just Cinny. Saying my horse isn't working is silly. If a few minutes of work in a showm ring is so terribly straining, I'm surprised that a 1 hour lesson in which he repeats the various elements and tests hasn't made him drop dead! Oh, and those poor cross country horses... I can't even think of those poor things. I guess they just keep all the horses dropping dead from that work completely hush hush! LOL.


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## Dressage10135 (Feb 11, 2009)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> I fail to see an answer the question. I explained both rides and asked why the seemingly worse ride with the bucking horse that seems unsafe would get more points. Instead its repeated that I'm a spoilt brat.
> 
> My vet said the trail ride is ore strenuous than 3 training level tests that last only a few minutes for ANY horse, not just Cinny. Saying my horse isn't working is silly. If a few minutes of work in a showm ring is so terribly straining, I'm surprised that a 1 hour lesson in which he repeats the various elements and tests hasn't made him drop dead! Oh, and those poor cross country horses... I can't even think of those poor things. I guess they just keep all the horses dropping dead from that work completely hush hush! LOL.


If you honestly believe that the few minutes in the show ring isn't straining then you really do NOT understand showing.

And also, a lot of cross country horses DO have problems trying to keep up with the work load and high stress of going around the course at their peak performance. 

Might want to learn a little bit about horses and showing before spewing out nonsense :wink:


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Your vet who has trained how many Dressage horses? If you're warming up for each test for 30 minutes that's 2 hours of riding w/t/c which is a lot harder in my books than walking on a long rein for 2 hours. But then again what the hello do I know about conditioning horses.

I'll let GH multi quote our explanations as I'm on my phone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think it's a legitimate thing to wonder about; why one horse is scored over another , when it appears to have more problems. And, I thought that Golden's original explanation about the statistical averaging of the scores pretty much can explain it.

It IS possible that the judge is biassed, but one would hope not. If this is the case, then there isn't much one can do. I don't think Cinny was exactly "flaming" the other competitors. her beef isnt' with them but with the judge.

If she comes off as whiny, well, maybe it's just having a bit of a post show rant, another way Bulletin Boards come in handy. A day or two of thinking about it and it's back to the grind; more training!


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> My vet said the trail ride is ore strenuous than 3 training level tests that last only a few minutes for ANY horse, not just Cinny. Saying my horse isn't working is silly. If a few minutes of work in a showm ring is so terribly straining, I'm surprised that a 1 hour lesson in which he repeats the various elements and tests hasn't made him drop dead! Oh, and those poor cross country horses... I can't even think of those poor things. I guess they just keep all the horses dropping dead from that work completely hush hush! LOL.


 A long trail ride and a few dressage tests in the arena can BOTH be very taxing, depending on how they're ridden. They both stress different muscle groups, so it's no surprise when horses that are trail ridden six days a week work up a sweat and are dead-tired the day after being asked to perform delicate maneuvers in frame and with precision in a confined area (Not saying this is Cinny, just using it as an example). Saying a horse should be able to ride a few dressage tests without difficulty because they're fit to take a three-hour trail ride is nonsense.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> I fail to see an answer the question. I explained both rides and asked why the seemingly worse ride with the bucking horse that seems unsafe would get more points. Instead its repeated that I'm a spoilt brat.
> 
> My vet said the trail ride is ore strenuous than 3 training level tests that last only a few minutes for ANY horse, not just Cinny. Saying my horse isn't working is silly. If a few minutes of work in a showm ring is so terribly straining, I'm surprised that a 1 hour lesson in which he repeats the various elements and tests hasn't made him drop dead! Oh, and those poor cross country horses... I can't even think of those poor things. I guess they just keep all the horses dropping dead from that work completely hush hush! LOL.


I thought I had explained how it can happen, I have no idea how Cinny performed on the day, but looking at another test you have published of him, I can totally understand a horse and rider who have overall more talent? no that's not what I mean, it's close but I can't get the right word, any way my trainers mad arab scores better then G Man when we ride the same test, even though she can be a b*tch and is a difficult ride, because what she does well she does very very well, and when she screws up, well she does that well to, but Mel rides tons better than I do, so she gets bonus points for her influence on the horse, and when she has it altogether she is stunning. G Man is workmanlike and mid range for a lot of things, over all he just doesn't score as highly.

BUT

I will come back and make one last try at the point that I am trying to get over, you cannot stress over favouritism, real or imagined, dressage should never be about winning per se, but about your harmony with your horse, and your partnership and improvement. If you are doing it to win, give up, go do something else, if you are doing it to be the best you can be on the day, then accept winning as no more than a bonus.

BTW it is a common misconception that there is anything safe about a dressage horse, it is a testament to the riding skills of the top flight riders that their horses look calm in the ring. Any athlete that is that fit, that responsive and that highly trained is actually a ticking bomb waiting to explode, there is a considerable amount of power and energy held in a delicate balance between hand and leg, there, and I can guarantee that if you or I climbed on board we would be ditched or run off with pretty darn quick.

You miss my point about the tests, if you are truly warming up and trying as hard as you should be it IS draining, which why at most shows you are limited to 4 tests for any one horse


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Cinnys daily workout usually consists of warmup on the lunge for about 15-20 minutes until he's moving freely.we then do stretches which consist of asking him to drop his nose down and through his feet,when he can easily stretch down and through till his ears are on his knees. Then a stretch on each side touching nose to butt and then stretching back and down toward his hind hoof. We do about 20 figure 8s using the full arena length at posting trot then for an hour to hour and a half we work on test elements. Canter trot transitions,ground poles, circles,bending,stretchy circles,free walk,flying lead changes,etc. Then we take a walk in the field or on trail for half hour. This is 4 or 5 times a week.

At shows we don't really lunge. We do stretches and then a 15 min walk in the warm up working on bending and roundness. Then about 10 minutes of trot with a couple of canter departs and halts. My trainer usually only has me work him enough to get the stiffness out before a test so warm up is usually about 30 minutes max. After test we walk down and then he goes to his stall. If there is two hours or more between tests we take him to graze and/or roll in the grass and just kick it.

I honestly thought this was far less work than our daily workouts or our lessons. About once a month we ride in a 4 to 5 hour clinic too.... and yes you ride the whole time. So I didn't really see three tests as any more strain than what we normally do. Not trying to be argumentative, just making a statement that I didn't see it the same way as others.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Thanx GH. Im not necessrily doing it "to win" and I know at times I express myself that way. I am however surrounded by family members and the such who are in it to win. I want to improve scores, which I did. I have shown hunters in the past back in the 90s and my trainers and schooling and even the shows were all about the horse that carried the rider well and was a joy to ride, first and foremost. Horses that threw tantys, bucked, broke gait usually never placed and depending on the number of instances during the class, were asked to leave the ring. These were USEF recognized shows.

I think this is where my confusion and confoundment stems from. Yes it mattered how they moved, frame, roundness and proper bitting.... but a slightly flawed horse usually placed before the perfect horse that bucked or otherwise pitched a fit. Maybe I need to set my previous background and way of thinking aside.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Yes, it is easy for a horse with moments of misbehavior to score fairly well. I was in a large recognized event and the horse I was riding was in a really naughty mood. The bell rang, we cantered into the ring, had a magnificent halt/salute. Then, when we trotted forward the silly wretch squealed and bucked all the way to C. We tracked right and went on with a really nice test.

I figured it was a bust test, until I got my score. I got a 2 on the spoiled movement but scored mostly 7's and 8's and a couple of 9's on the rest of the test. The judge, Axel Steiner, wrote "rodeo" in his comments on the trip down the centerline. I scored quite high on the collective for position, because I didn't come off, I guess.

We were second after dressage and ended up winning the event due to lack of penalties on XC and Stadium.

I was embarrassed when I got pinned, but 90% of the test was very good. Luckily, dressage is scored by the movement. One bad movement cannot ruin the whole test. It is more fair than flat classes where "impression" is what makes the scores, IMO.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I don't know about you CW, but I often take two horses to my trainers, which means grooming getting ready, loading up, driving over there, riding two horses, with prep time and cooling down time for each, loading up driving home, getting everyone ready and putting them up, tires me out..

Taking one horse to a show, riding 4 tests just totally wipes me out, because I put far more of everything into it, I find it far more draining. I believe because of that my horse probably finds it draining as well, that is the difference to me, it 's a day of being switched on, where as trail riding is more likely to be a little more relaxing, not so much nervous energy around.

That is why I think a show and a few tests is just as, or even more work than a trail ride.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I understand that GH. My trail rides are usually hill work,bending,laterals and gait transitions. I pretty much think of it as schooling without a rail lol. I usually only do lazy walk when im with other horses because if we do canter cinny thinks he has to race everyone which can be dangerous on our tail. One side of the trail has about 10 feet between the trail and a 10 or 20 foot drop into a ravine so you want to be in full control. Our after arena work rides are ALWAYS walks as well.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Well congratulations on your improvement 

And I have to say I'm happy that Dressage is fine with a horse not being completely calm because I'm pretty sure when I take Sky to a few local shows for desensitizing and to see where we are.... it's going to be a beautiful rodeo. :lol:


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## robohog (Nov 24, 2011)

It is hard for me not to comment about this. But i do believe all this started from a simple question. 

How is it that a bucking horse gets a better score then a horse that did as asked but just not perfect?

I think golden horse explained it pretty well and that where i was gonna leave it. But i just knew some were gonna come on and start up with the assumptions and criticisms. I am sad it has come to name calling just because someone questions dressage.

I loved going to Dressage shows and watching other riders and seeing how your horse progresses throughout the season. But really its no longer fun for me. I do have opinions on todays dressage and will keep them to myself.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm sorry you feel people are being rude. I hope we were able to show how one or two bad movements can not ruin a whole test. Some bad behavior only affects the movements involved. If other movements scored well, it can overcome the badly performed movements to create a better than expected score.

If Cinney came from a hunter background, as she says she did, she is familiar with how bad behavior will ruin the whole class. The scores are an OVERALL score, not a score of a brief movement, being added to all the other scores of brief movements.

Cinney is just learning dressage and she may not have found that delicate balance between the leg and hand that will help bring her horse together. This will tend to create lower scores in each movement. 

We were all there once. We all had to go through those same growing pains. Once she gets that balance with her horse, she will see consistently better scores throughout the test...adding up to overall better scores.

Cinny, don't get discouraged. You will get there. Just keep trying to find that balance.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Cinny, 

I'm curious; what were the judge's comments on your score sheet? Often the score sheets are the most valuable thing about the show, especially a bad show. 

If you're trying to understand how the class was placed, or how one or two movements did or didn't affect the overall placing, reviewing the score sheet and the judge's comments is invaluable.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Okay Maura  Here are the training 2 comments...it's the only score sheet I can find right now as I still have yet to unpack from the show. Judges comments for each element are in red.

1 - Enter working trot, halt salute - straight, salute should be more clear

2 - C Track right B Circle Right 20m - Fussy on the bit

3 - KXM Change Rein working trot - active but tight through back

4 - Between C&H - Working Canter left lead - Haunches trailing (not sure what that means)

5 - E Circle left 20m - above bit

6 - Between E&K working trot - Straight but lacks connection

7 - A Circle left allowing horse to stretch forward and downward before A shorten reins - O small

8 - Between A&F Medium walk - could march more

9 - FXM free walk M-C Medium walk - Shows some swing from behind tenses before M

10 - C Working Trot - above bit

11 - E Circle Left 20m - inconsistent connection

12 - FXH Change rein working trot - Straight diagnal need more bend in corners

13 - Between C & M working canter right lead - running into depart (actually he slipped and tripped himself up and almost went down)

14 - B Circle right 20m - no comments were written but scored 5.5

15 - Between B&F working trot - no comments written but scored 6.0

16 - A Down Centerline X Halt, salute - Reins MUST be taken in one hand and drop other for salute - My mistake... my last two trainers told me it is also acceptible to have a strong halt and bow head down. As Cinny tends to like as little rein movement as possible this is what I have always done. This is the first judge to say anything about it and she even called me over after my test and told me I need to do it the other way. I made sure to sit, listen and then thank her.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

And the individual scores and the scores for the collective marks?

BTW, "haunchss trailing" means not tracking up or haunches trailing behind or not engaged behind - actually, it's more severe than just not engaged.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Interesting about the salute Cinny, I've always been taught the one handed version and I wondered if both were acceptable, but everything I can find agrees with this version

1. Salute promptly *only after* *the halt is established*. Your horse should remain quietly on the aids. He should *not* anticipate the move-off, be “behind” your leg aids, step back or be crooked.
2. Take your reins into *one hand* (MOST preferably the hand without the
whip). However, either hand is permissible. Failure to take the reins in one hand is an error of test and penalized by a deduction of points. *Note*: Dropping your hand with the whip may inadvertently touch the horse and cause him to move.
3. Promptly drop your arm straight down behind your thigh while looking pleasantly and confidently at the judge; then immediately drop your head in a slight nod while keeping your back straight and seat centered. Promptly lift your head. *Note*: Leaning forward, displacing weight, or excessive movement may cue your horse to move-off early or to become crooked.
4. Take the reins in both hands and move-off establishing right or left flexion depending on the turn at C direction.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

OH, Sorry Maura...

Scores (I'll just number the movements instead of rewriting them all)

1 - 6.0
2 - 5.5
3 - 5.5
4 - 5.5
5 - 5.5 (coefficient is 2)
6 - 6.0
7 - 4.5
8 - 6.0
9 - 6.0 (coeffiecient 2)
10 - 5.0
11 - 5.5
12 - 6.0
13 - 4.5
14 - 5.5 (ce 2)
15 - 6.0
16 - 5.0

Gaits - 6.0
Impulsion - 5.5
Submission - 5.5
Riders Position - 6.0
Riders use of aids - 5.5
Harmony - 6.0

further remarks
Horse was better than test 1 but still needs to develop strength over topline.

Total points 155
percent 55.35


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

So here is another question. Maybe I am CRAZY or something. I keep forgetting that Cin has only technically been under saddle for 2 years. Am I crazy to think he should be moving into the bit better, round over topline etc and giving up thinking he just CAN'T and never will? How long (as in time under saddle) does it take for most horses to develop the correct contact, impulsion, topline, etc to carry out at least 6.5's in most movements and collectives at training level? Should Cinny already be there, or should I give him a year or more to reach that ability?


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Cinny, 

Here are some general observations, based on what I know about you and your progress from looking at a lot of your videos and reading a lot of your posts. Bear in mind that I didn’t see the videos of THIS show, and that these are general comments. 


Cinny does not accept contact with the bit. Period. Last video I saw, he moved from above the bit to behind the bit, without ever pausing in between to reach forward into the contact. He acts almost as if he’s afraid of the contact, which may be a relic of his old, bad western training. It’s as if you’re offering him a firm handshake (dressage contact) and he’s afraid to take your hand because you have a joy buzzer in it. 


The purpose of Training Level, stated right there at the top of the test form, is "To confirm that the horse is supple and moves freely...accepting contact with the bit."

You may recall that some months ago, when you proposed moving up to Training Level, I advised against it. This is why.


Now, he may have improved considerably since the last video I saw of him. But I don’t see the point of taking a horse out at Training Level until they’re really working consistently on the aids at home for an entire test. At a schooling show, a judge might disregard a horse coming above the bit during canter departures or other transitions, but only if they recover in a stride or two, and only if the rest of the foundation appears correct.


A 56% is not a bad test score by any means; it almost exactly what I would have anticipated.. It means mostly 6s on the movements. The comments on the test that you copied seem to indicate that Cinny has improved slightly, but that he’s still not accepting the contact. (Lacks connection, not round, above the bit, fussy on the bit, etc.) It is not possible to break 60 at Training Level without the horse consistently moving forward into the contact. To break 70 at Training Level, they have to really demonstrate using their hind end and moving through the back and be very correct in all the movements. If you blow a movement, you better have great gaits or moments of brilliance to make up for it.

I have no idea what the person saw who lead you to believe a score in the 60s or 70s was possible, it was certainly radically different than anything I’ve seen. And ultimately, she didn’t do any favors by setting you up for disappointment. 


Far from the judges not liking you, I think you got a little credit for being on a cute, appealing horse and being impeccably turned out. 

Finally, I think it will take some work with a really, talented and tactful professional to get Cinny working correctly on the aids. You have to decide if that’s worthwhile for you. Letting Cinny be a good looking, pleasure, trail or local show horse is a perfectly reasonable option. 

ETA: It's not about topline. It's about accepting the bit; and the previous bad training you will have to overcome to get him there.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

That's the funny thing, for the past few weeks at home, he has been on the bit so I guess I got really frustrated with him for reverting. I didn't think we would get 70's... I was thinking 62 ish. But that is if he performed the way he did the night before the show. My trainer's jaw dropped to the ground when she saw him at the show as he was NOT the horse he has been... I think we all set ourselves up.

I think what got to DH was that across from Cinny was an OTTB that my previous trainer is working with, being ridden by a rider of the same level I am. (This trainer won't go to my new barn and I have no trailer which is why she isn't my trainer currently). Anyway They were all bragging how she just won a race in April and now here she is pulling 70's out of her butt in training level dressage when they have only worked her at it a few months. It kind of made me feel like me and my horse are utter failures.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> It kind of made me feel like me and my horse are utter failures.



Reaches out and slaps Cinny

There you go again comparing to someone else..

Look, I have been stuck in intro with G Man for over a year, because I can't get him consistent in his outline, he can do it, he will do it, but we aren't consistent, and I agree with the whole pyramid view of dressage, until you are solid at one level you can't move up, the higher you go the less people and horses there are at that level, because it is hard, and just gets harder.

This is why you just can't EVER compare yourself to another pair, because it isn't fair on anyone. 

If Cinny was good at home and less than stellar at the show, hello welcome to the world a lot of us live in, it happens, so you get to as many training shows as you can until you get over it.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Which makes you feel better?

Knowing your nice horse has a significant training barrier because of his previous training? (I would rather work with 5 OTTBs who leaned and braced before 1 horse that had been taught to be afraid of the bit.)

Or blaming bad judging, favoritism or breed bias?

I am more than a little concerned that you *named* the dressage judge you were unhappy with on a public forum. That may be a really effective way of ensuring that there's very real bias in the future.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

OUch I deserved that, and I agree. Bad form on my part.


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## cakemom (Jul 4, 2010)

Our trainers view is until you are consistently scoring in the 70s at a schooling show at intro you should not move to training. Dressage is about teaching and consistency, and it takes patience hon, trust me, Red is teaching me this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

You know, it is a fact of life that dressage may come more naturally for some horses than others. I think it is a wonderful challenge, however, to take a horse who has training issues and bring them around. I find it very satisfying. I especially like taking a horse that many would think is "non traditional" and whoop butt with them.

Cinny had some issues from previous training....right? Well, consider it your challenge and have fun with it. I suspect your current barrier is finding that connection between your leg and your hand. How much leg to drive your horse forward...how much hand to catch that forward energy and constructively channel it. This is the basis of dressage. It is NOT tough hands...it is the balance between leg/seat/hands.

DON'T give up. DON'T measure yourself against others. Measure yourself against how you improved on past performances.

Welcome to the "My horse is great at home and a maniac at a show" syndrome!!! At home, you are both under little actual pressure and totally comfortable with your familiar surroundings. At a show, you are likely nervous and stressed. It will make you stiffer and less flexible in your riding. It will really communicate your nervousness to your horse. Your horse will think..."dang, if she is nervous, there must be something really dangerous going on...I'm scared!" At home, practice MAKING yourself relax, so you don't start sending these scary messages to your horse. Practice will help. Get Robo to remind you to "pretend" you are totally relaxed at shows. It really will help.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Great information from a very obscure, top secret source -

(Nah, just kidding, it's from the USEF dressage site, and, it's, you know, the rule book - http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2012/08-DR.pdf)

c. If a problem appears once it may be treated lightly by the judge; if it appears successively he
will score it more harshly each time, i.e., nodding, stumbling, shying, etc.
d. Grinding of the teeth and wringing of the tail are signs of tenseness or resistance on the part
of the horse and should be considered in the marks for each movement where they appear, as
well as in the Collective Marks. Horses which get their tongues over the bit or perform with an
open mouth shall be marked down.
e. The levels of dressage are offered as a means of evaluating a horse that is changing. The
purpose of each test is printed on the cover and the horse shall be considered in light of the degree of training it should have achieved to be shown at that level.​

Oh, and in another note, the both hands on the reins, nod, salute, is legal for *disabled* riders or para-equestrians. So that's the confusion about that. Also in the rule book!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Whoops, everyone has bad rides mate!!! The thing that seperates the decent riders from the rest of the pack though, is that those who WILL succeed do not blame everyone else around them, but instead look at their tests, look over the test video, work out what's going wrong, go home and work on it. 

As others have explained, dressage is marked on individual movements. So even if you get a 0 on one movement - say a 20m canter circle and your horse just trots faster and does some kind of funky looking square shape, they are still perfectly able to get a 10 on the next movement if they do it perfectly.
Its great that Cinny went around the arena without bucking or giving any 'naughtiness' like the other horses, but a quiet, 'ok' test isn't what wins dressage. If you look at horses like Valegro and Totilas, they are very VERY hot headed horses. There's plenty of shots and videos floating around the internet of Valegro on his back legs in a full vertical rear. 

As I think Allison and Maura have already covered, you need to read the course directives and description on each movement. Anybody can pull the horse around to the markers and do the movements with the horse in an inconsistent contact and on the forehand. Its the basic work that is the hard bit.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Kayty said:


> Whoops, everyone has bad rides mate!!! The thing that seperates the decent riders from the rest of the pack though, is that those who WILL succeed do not blame everyone else around them, but instead look at their tests, look over the test video, work out what's going wrong, go home and work on it.
> 
> As others have explained, dressage is marked on individual movements. So even if you get a 0 on one movement - say a 20m canter circle and your horse just trots faster and does some kind of funky looking square shape, they are still perfectly able to get a 10 on the next movement if they do it perfectly.
> Its great that Cinny went around the arena without bucking or giving any 'naughtiness' like the other horses, but a quiet, 'ok' test isn't what wins dressage. If you look at horses like Valegro and Totilas, they are very VERY hot headed horses. There's plenty of shots and videos floating around the internet of Valegro on his back legs in a full vertical rear.
> ...



I think I am understanding a lot better now. Naughty on 1 thing but good on others, still good overall score. Quite but not quite right, points off for each thing... So even a horse that is hot still does very well. I actually see Cin as more the "hot" type just not on the bit or in control yet but he is oh so sensitive. 

My lack of connection is my fear of giving him connection since he already has issues from the past in regards to his bit, ingrained in his head. I need to find more balance with that...and we have been very very slowly. Like I said in a previous thread, I am now getting blisters because of more contact. That doesn't mean he has what he should have, but it's a start. If I have him at a halt in the arena and gently pick up the reins more and more to get contact, he will resist for about 5 seconds and then drop his head into the bridle and chew. Only 4 months ago if I did the same thing his head would have shot up so hard I'd be scared of my nose getting busted. At home at a walk I can get the head down/chewy connection but not with other gaits. It's progress though.

I also have to be very very careful with leg pressure... basically just barely tickle him with the stirrup, anything more and he will lunge forward as if I have just smacked him on the butt HARD with a whip. I NEVER allow anyone on him with spurs, and only OutOfTheBlue has been allowed to use his snaffle, anyone else who rides uses my rope halter/hackamore. Steering him is 95% seat, same with halt. 

I know writing those out has probably bored you. But writing them just now has made me realize just how fare I have gotten with Cman....Wow.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Have you tried a mullen mouth snaffle on him? That might help reduce the movement in his mouth and encourage him to take a little contact on it?

He certainly has come a long way, and sometimes its hard to take a step back and go 'wow... my horse has actually improved in leaps and bounds', when you are expecting it to work at something quite difficult.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I haven't but I have thought about it. His current Happy Mouth "peanut" snaffle is by far his favorite of all that he has ever had. I even have to fight him to get the darn thing back out of his mouth after our ride! He also stopped flipping his head up with rein pressure within days of trying it. I almost did backflips when I double checked the USEF list of approved bits (to see if a different one was legal) and found his favorite is on the list! I'm almost afraid to try something else. The nice part is when he nickers as soon as he sees his bridle come out of the tack locker!!


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> Like I said in a previous thread, I am now *getting blisters *because of more contact.


This is part of the problem.
Constructive contact, like you need, should have little or no pressure on your hands like that. he should feel light as a feather in your hands most of the time. Blisters are a sign of a horse that is HEAVY on the forehand and using YOU to hold him up. You need to lift him up and then use your leg to bring him forward into the bridle.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> This is part of the problem.
> Constructive contact, like you need, should have little or no pressure on your hands like that. he should feel light as a feather in your hands most of the time. Blisters are a sign of a horse that is HEAVY on the forehand and using YOU to hold him up. You need to lift him up and then use your leg to bring him forward into the bridle.


So far leg doesn't really bring him into the bridle, it makes him leap forward.. I have to be very very careful to not do more than a muscle twitch because he is so sensitive to it, we are still finding our leg pressure balance. This is one of my "near future" goals. I'm tired of him shooting out from under me if I do more than barely tickle him. A couple of weeks ago I was watching a conrad shoemaker video and I noticed that a lot of his riders periodically move their hands up the horses neck releasing contact for 1 stride and then gently regain contact. I don't really know what the actual purpose of this is, but I find it's really great when Cin gets too heavy to gently do this and he does get a little lighter after. I just assumed that his now getting heavier was a sign that he is more accepting of bit pressures.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I have no where near the experience of the others, but I'll throw in a thought here, if you don't mind. A horse that is overly sensitive to the leg might lose this if the leg is put on MORE. of course, you don't want him to become insensitive to the leg but if you keep the leg off for fear of his reaction, then it kind of reinforces that reaction, or at least never moves him past it to calm acceptence. Perhaps you could try riding with more leg on him all the time. or, put the leg on and if he shoots forward, just let him but don't panic and take the leg off. when at a walk, let your legs move around and brush up against his sides and things, kind of sloppily, to make leg contact no big deal.

this is just one small idea and by no means any big dressage "tip".


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Tiny, I was about to post exactly the same thing before I saw your post!

It's all good and well to have a horse that is highly reactive to the aids. HOWEVER, the reactions need to be controlled. OTTB's can be like this, touch them and they leap forward, and the rider then assumes that the horse is off the leg. It is not off the leg, it is running away from the leg.
It is the same issue you've been having with the bit. With Cinny being scared of contact, he throws his head up or sucks back to avoid it. Leaping off the leg is a sign that he's avoiding the pressure. 
Think of your leg as a pair of spurs or a whip. If the horse leapt away with you touched them with the spur, would you back right off and avoid touching them, or would you start to desensitize to that aid? 
A horse needs to accept the aid, and react accordingly, without resistance. Leaping away is a form of resistance. 

I would be riding MILLIONS of transitions on this horse. Put the leg on, and gently leave it on until he settles down, then ride a downward, a few strides later another upwards, leave the leg lightly on until settled and so on. Until he comes to realise that he doesn't need to leap away from the leg to avoid it. 

Giving the hands up the neck is simply testing the contact, or rewarding the horse, depending on the context of the ride. 
You can't test a contact if there is no contact there to start with.


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