# The Extreme Alpha Challenge!



## Cadence (Oct 30, 2009)

*My questions:* 

How do I know if I successfully instilled leadership in this horses mind? 

How long does it last? 

Why would a horse (seemingly) randomly in the middle of an exercise "challenge" my authority? 

Is it normal for a gelding to challenge me 8 different times/ways in a 20 min work period?

Do I have to be "on" 24/7 around this horse? 

What do you do when your horse hardly lowers his head, licks and chews...

*Horse Background: *The horse is a recent purchase, a 5 yo QH/Arab gelding. He bites, doesn't like his hind feet picked up, barely tolerates grooming, and likes to show his hindquarters when we longe. 

When I first got him, he attacked me in his stall, tried to kick me in the head, would run me over when I tried to lead him, wouldn't tie, wouldn't tolerate longing or grooming. Don't even think about touching his feet! 

*How I handle Him: *I work Aries pretty much everyday for 15-20 min about the same time each day. Here is my routine, I spray him with fly spray, longe him, groom him, try to clean his feet, saddle him and carefully add my weight across the saddle while standing on a mounting block. 

*How he responds: *He is finally used to being sprayed with fly spray! Success! Longing is a pain though, but he is getting better. I put the chain under his chin and we start walking clockwise when I say walk. Then, I ask for the trot. I point the longe line at his hind end and keep my left shoulder pointed in so I am behind his movement driving him forward. For some reason, randomly he will come to an abrupt stop, and face me. I don't think that it is anythig I am doing. I have a friend video tape and we both couldn't find anything. I have to flick the longe whip near him rather violently (making lots of noise with it and growl, WALK!) to get him to move out. I even have to shift my gaze and stand sideways before he will walk. Then, after a few rounds of successful trotting, and me saying, "gooood boooooyyy!" he will pull another trick! He stops and brings his hind quarters in toward me and his head faces out! I have been whipping his head around so that it is in the proper direction and I immediately make him trot in the same direction we started in. Once I get a few successful times around, I say, "Whoa!" (which he listens to quite well), and I get him to change directions. Couner clock wise he is an angel. 

He does kick at me when he canters. I can see him shift his hind in at me...but he is too far to get me. Still...it is unnerving at times. 

When we are done, I ask him to come to me in the middle. It takes him a minute. I bow down and avert my gaze and he comes in ...slowly... Then, I use the longe whip to do some desensitizing near the feet. I take the hoof pick out of my pocket and walk up and pick up his feet. I can clean most of them...but he tries very hard to not let me clean the right hind foot. He totters and rips it forcefully out of my hand. Other days, I can get a secure hold and clean it. When he tears it out of my hand I yell, NO and try again, but sometimes he gives a little kick and slams the foot down hard. I am afraid of getting hurt, because he came really close to kicking me in the head with that foot! 

I worry that there might also be a foot issue. The farrier came in early July and said his feet are fine. The previous owner didn't tell me that they never cleaned their horses feet until they were brought to my property, from out of state.  So, he rarely ever got his feet touched and he clearly doesn't like it. The farrier is back in two weeks...so I will have that foot looked at then for soreness...

Once I am done with the grooming, I put the saddle on him. (He was already broke, but the previous owner said the trainer only rode him 5 times.) He is fine about the saddle and tightening the girth. He also accepts me standing up over him and leaning on the saddle. I just talk to him and pet him. He will SOMETIMES take a deep breath when I am up there... mostly he just watches me and rarely does he walk away. 

*When He Challenges:*

I am ashamed to admit that when he bites or attempts to bite, I smack him hard on his neck and yell, "NO!" really loud. All he does is calm down and let me do what I needed to do. 

When he invades my space I sharply wrap the lead line with the shank and he draws back. If he doesn't have the lead rope I wave my hands in his face, give him an angry look and hiss. He stays away. 

So, any advice you have for me on being Alpha, horse language that can tell me I just went down a peg on the pecking order, and what to do about the feet and so on...

Thanks! 

Shelley


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Shelley, I'm concerned for your safety. I feel that you need someone with more skill to bring Aries out of his present challenging mode. I suggest that you watch & learn from that person while he/she's training Aries. Are you wearing a helmet around Aries?


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## Cadence (Oct 30, 2009)

Northern said:


> Shelley, I'm concerned for your safety. I feel that you need someone with more skill to bring Aries out of his present challenging mode. I suggest that you watch & learn from that person while he/she's training Aries. Are you wearing a helmet around Aries?



Yes, I am actually wearing a helmet. 

I have actually tried to hire two people, who train in the area, to come out. After they heard about his behaviors they told me to sell him and that they don't generally work with horses of his "nature". I can't afford to send him away. They want 600.00 a month and want to keep him for several months. So, I wanted to keep "working" with him the best I could until I could find someone to come to me.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

I am ashamed to admit that when he bites or attempts to bite, I smack him hard on his neck and yell, "NO!" really loud. All he does is calm down and let me do what I needed to do. 


Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/extreme-alpha-challenge-62316/#ixzz0wiZhPSNh


You do not need to feel ashamed. If he tried this with a dominant horse he would get bit back or kicked at. So smacking him is alot less than what he could get. How long have you had him? He sounds to me, like he has no respect for you. Watch when you lunge him that you stay behind his withers or saddle area. If you have to try and stay at his hind end. If he tries this backing up to you with his hind end, give him a good smack with a crop or lunge whip. Like I said, a dominant horse would not stand for that.

"He does kick at me when he canters. I can see him shift his hind in at me...but he is too far to get me. Still...it is unnerving at times. "


Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/extreme-alpha-challenge-62316/#ixzz0wiazZTPZ


Dont you use a lunge whip? Dont let him be so far away from you that you cant correct him quickly. As soon as you see he is shifting his hind end in to you, yell loudly and say no and if you have to let him "RUN" into your whip. Dont be afraid as he can sense that. I would get mad! You cant let him know you are weaker than him. Make it look as if you are TOP DOG. 

"I am afraid of getting hurt, because he came really close to kicking me in the head with that foot!" 


Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/extreme-alpha-challenge-62316/#ixzz0wicAO5pj

You are doing fine desensitizing him with the lunge whip. Safer that way. Even if you dont pick his feet, still do alot of touching starting from his butt all the way down. Dont even pick up his feet, he probably will be anticipating you picking them up, but dont. Just brush his legs or scratch them and touch the outer hoof area for awhile. Every now and then try and pick the foot up and be quick about putting it down again.
Rubbing and praising him when you finish. I would do this for awhile and it may not be in one day that you get to actually clean his feet. 
Almost as if its back to basics. It wont kill him not to have the feet cleaned everyday. Just take your time and rub rub rub. Good luck!


STAY SAFE!! IF YOU FEEL YOU CANT OVERCOME YOUR FEAR, HAVE SOMEONE ELSE DO IT. BUT LEARN FROM THAT PERSON SO YOU CAN CONTINUE THE TRAINING.


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## kaydeebug (Aug 10, 2010)

well sadly my horse sounds like this and ten times worse


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## Cadence (Oct 30, 2009)

kaydeebug said:


> well sadly my horse sounds like this and ten times worse



Are you having success with anything in particular? 

Tonight, he tried to bite me when I went to give everyone their evening feed. I had to smack him AGAIN. Then, I had to shoo him out of his stall and be extra obnoxious about it. He peeked in to see if it was OK to enter. I turned stiff, shoulders erect, and gave him the ugly look. He turned and walked away. I can't turn my back on him for a minute. He acts like a stallion... 

I guess I am just gonna go back to the basics with this BRAT and I will hire someone to help me.


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## Cadence (Oct 30, 2009)

mbender said:


> I am ashamed to admit that when he bites or attempts to bite, I smack him hard on his neck and yell, "NO!" really loud. All he does is calm down and let me do what I needed to do.
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/extreme-alpha-challenge-62316/#ixzz0wiZhPSNh
> ...


*Good advice and I will keep working on it! *


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## kaydeebug (Aug 10, 2010)

ugh unfortunately i know the feeling. my mare is so dominate she thinks she rules us humans as well. she will bite me when i got to feed her. but i try to not hit her in the face cause she is close to being extremey head shy from previous owners. she is just a pain. i can hardly do anything, she is cinchy so shell try to bite me and she is stirrup soar so shell try to bite me and when i kick the lope her she pins her ears back and when i turn her head to bend her neck she tries to bite my feet. she practically broke a fence down going after our new horse. to show that she is the dominate one


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## Cadence (Oct 30, 2009)

kaydeebug said:


> ugh unfortunately i know the feeling. my mare is so dominate she thinks she rules us humans as well. she will bite me when i got to feed her. but i try to not hit her in the face cause she is close to being extremey head shy from previous owners. she is just a pain. i can hardly do anything, she is cinchy so shell try to bite me and she is stirrup soar so shell try to bite me and when i kick the lope her she pins her ears back and when i turn her head to bend her neck she tries to bite my feet. she practically broke a fence down going after our new horse. to show that she is the dominate one



OMG!!! I feel so bad for you! Do you work with a trainer? 

What are your plans for the mare? Is she just born this way and never going to change. Did you have plans to show her? What is her breed? Maybe 2 hours of galloping up a hill will fix her attitude hahahaha! 

It just makes yeah think...why am I keeping this horse? Will I keep him until the day comes that I get hurt. I am actually worried that I won't be able to sell him. lol


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## kaydeebug (Aug 10, 2010)

my mare is a thoroughbred, she was originally suppose to race but never did. i do ride her two times a week and i have my horse shows. when i am riding her and she bends her head and tries to bite me i kick her in the nose. that worked. i dont think shell ever hurt me, she is just a runner she always wants to go. she would be a great high school rodeo horse. i just dont high school rodeo i had a choice i chose not to. so i ride in a riding club i also race her on the track just not professionally. i wish i was brave enough to take her in the hills im just afraid shell take off wanting to run. shes a great horse you just got to be ready for a hot horse


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## Cadence (Oct 30, 2009)

kaydeebug said:


> my mare is a thoroughbred, she was originally suppose to race but never did. i do ride her two times a week and i have my horse shows. when i am riding her and she bends her head and tries to bite me i kick her in the nose. that worked. i dont think shell ever hurt me, she is just a runner she always wants to go. she would be a great high school rodeo horse. i just dont high school rodeo i had a choice i chose not to. so i ride in a riding club i also race her on the track just not professionally. i wish i was brave enough to take her in the hills im just afraid shell take off wanting to run. shes a great horse you just got to be ready for a hot horse



Wow! You are brave! Maybe she will settle....by the time she is 30! lol


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## kaydeebug (Aug 10, 2010)

ya thats like 39572 years away. jk shes only 9 tho. but itll be lucky if shes calm by then ughhhhh hahaha


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Shelley, I meant have someone come to your place, not ship him out somewhere, just for the record. I see that you know that's better. I hope that you find an able person who'll turn things around for Aries/teach you how. A reminder: horses are not brats/other derogatory terms: they're just being the horsenalities that the Lord made them. You might want to learn about left-brain introverts, of Parelli's 4 basic horsenality types, also, & learn how to handle this type (make me! type).


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Seems I've written an essay & it won't fit in one post, so here's the first installment!



Cadence said:


> How do I know if I successfully instilled leadership in this horses mind?


He will trust you & follow your lead willingly without compulsion 100%



> How long does it last?


Depends. On the horse's personality, your personality, what you're asking of him & how...



> Why would a horse (seemingly) randomly in the middle of an exercise "challenge" my authority?


Depends. Perhaps you never had any 'authority' in the first place. Perhaps he's one of those types that is always up for a challenge, always wanting to be the Boss. Perhaps something is worrying him & making him reactive, perhaps he's bored or otherwise had enough of whatever you're asking of him. 



> Is it normal for a gelding to challenge me 8 different times/ways in a 20 min work period?


Yep, normal for a gelding, mare or stallion, depending on the above.



> Do I have to be "on" 24/7 around this horse?


If you mean alert & on guard, sounds like it, for now at least.



> What do you do when your horse hardly lowers his head, licks and chews...


 I gather you’re talking about ‘Join Up’? IMO the first thing I’d do is stop doing that. If he’s not doing those things, he is either confused/frightened/not confident about something, &/or he’s otherwise irritated by you & wanting out.

The basic premise of ‘Join Up’ is to emulate *one type* of behaviour of an ‘alpha’ horse with a recalcitrant one in a natural herd. When a horse ‘misbehaves’, the more ‘dominant’ horse(using ‘alpha’ & ‘dominant’ loosely – won’t go into an essay on my perception of these terms as relates to horses) may chase them out of the herd and prevent them coming back until the horse shows ‘submission’. It assumes first & foremost that the ‘naughty’ horse ‘respects’ the ‘lead’ horse – or else he may choose to stay & fight, rather than allow her to chase him away – and that both horses in question *want *the‘naughty’ horse to be back in the fold. While that is generally the case, it often isn’t. Perhaps the lead horse is fed up with the other. Perhaps it’s a lead mare chasing away her ‘teenage’ son, or a stallion chasing out either son or daughter. Perhaps there’s another band across the hill who the ousted horse decides he’d rather be with…

When the above behaviour does happen, it doesn’t happen without good reason – it’s not something that the lead horse just does to others for the hell of it. It’s also about the recalcitrant horse being ousted from the *security* of the herd & being left alone on the outer. It’s not about chasing a horse around & around in an enclosed space that he *wants* to get out of.

For the above reasons, I think ‘Join Up’ type exercises can be valuable ‘tools’ to have in your box of tricks, *depending* on the horse, your relationship and *how* you go about it. But it is not something that is appropriate for any horse, in any situation. It is not The Answer, but one of many possible ‘ingredients’ that may or may not be helpful as part of the whole.

Now I’ll get off my soapbox about that & back to the questions at hand…



> *Horse Background: *The horse is a recent purchase, a 5 yo QH/Arab gelding. He bites, doesn't like his hind feet picked up, barely tolerates grooming, and likes to show his hindquarters when we longe.
> 
> When I first got him, he attacked me in his stall, tried to kick me in the head, would run me over when I tried to lead him, wouldn't tie, wouldn't tolerate longing or grooming. Don't even think about touching his feet!


 Sounds like an ‘assertive’ personality! Either that or he’s been abused & learned that offense is the best method of defense. Sounds a dangerous type to get confrontational with. I would firstly not bother with doing anything to him or invade his personal space or otherwise be confrontational wherever possible for now. I would instead concentrate on building a *good, positive* relationship with him and establish the basic ground rules & ‘manner’s in a non-confrontational & safe manner. Ie. With a fence or stable door in between you, to keep you safe without having to resort to offense becoming your best defense! I’d use positive reinforcement(rewards) to teach him that I was a Good Thing to be around & teach him how to behave(& how not to behave) in my presence. 



> *How I handle Him: *I work Aries pretty much everyday for 15-20 min about the same time each day. Here is my routine, I spray him with fly spray, longe him, groom him, try to clean his feet, saddle him and carefully add my weight across the saddle while standing on a mounting block.


 All of this is about doing stuff TO him. Sounds like none of it's Good Stuff, from his perspective. Have you first tried to make friends with him, get to know him, gain his trust? Do you spend time just hanging out or doing nice stuff WITH him? IMO with any horse, this is what I’d be doing first & foremost, with the doing things TO him coming after the relationship was established – and still being done respectFULLY with lots of Good Stuff happening too.

There are a number of questions & problems I see with what you’ve told about lunging him in my opinion. First the questions… Why are you lunging him? Why do you use a chain to do it? What is ‘goood boooy’ supposed to mean to him & do you think he understands this? How do you know? Do you know if he has actually been taught to lunge well? Do you know how he was taught, what cues? “I even have to shift my gaze and stand sideways before he will walk.” may be one of the cues he was taught. Do you know if you’re doing it in the same manner as it was taught to him? If he’s ‘an angel’ counter clockwise is it possible he was taught to go that way but not the other? People are very good at generalising & horses are very bad at it, so they may not have even considered he needed to be taught on both sides.

I think a big part of the answer about the abrupt stopping & ‘pulling other tricks’ lies in the “after a few rounds of successful trotting, and me saying, "gooood boooooyyy!" and “Once I get a few successful times around, I say, "Whoa!"”. Horses learn by association to do what works for them. They don’t understand abstract ideas(that don’t have direct association) & have a VERY short span of association. That means that they need *instant* reinforcement for their behaviour, in order for them to learn what is ‘right’ & ‘wrong’. So, ‘after a few rounds’ is a few rounds too late to begin with. 

When your communication with the horse is well established, you can *build up to* those few or more rounds before reinforcing him, but if you want to teach him to do it for you in the first place, you need to reinforce it effectively *when it STARTS to happen* so that he knows what works. Saying ‘goood boooy’ or whatever else you say/do as you continue to make him work is meaningless, as it’s not associated with anything other than him going around & around. So the ‘tricks’ he tries are him trying other behaviours to see if they work, because he’s found that what he was doing wasn’t working for him. The threatening to kick are also his way of showing his frustration, that you’re continuing to pressure him & he doesn’t know what else it is you want.



> When we are done, I ask him to come to me in the middle. It takes him a minute. I bow down and avert my gaze and he comes in ...slowly...


 Sounds like he doesn’t want to, is perhaps also nervous of doing so, perhaps nervous of your focussing on him, but he has been taught that Worse Things may happen if he doesn’t. I personally like my horses to *want* to come to me because I’m a Good Thing, not because they have any repercussions to fear if they don’t.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

> When he tears it out of my hand I yell, NO and try again, but sometimes he gives a little kick and slams the foot down hard. I am afraid of getting hurt, because he came really close to kicking me in the head with that foot!


 This is a very dangerous position to put yourself in, especially as you seem to be doing it in a rather confrontational way. I would instead work on getting him to trust & enjoy you just being close to him & allowing you to touch him. Then once he’s comfortable with you touching his legs, then you can *gradually* teach him to pick up his feet for you. That is, don’t just try to grab it, hold it & try to keep it in one hit – I’d try to kick you if you did that to me too! – But again keeping in mind that they learn to do what works with instant associations, start with just reinforcing the smallest tries. Ie. Ask him to pick up his foot & reinforce him by quitting hassling(& pref positively too) *the instant* he shifts his weight or *begins* to raise the foot. With repetition he’ll become reliable & comfortable doing this for you and you can gradually ask *a little* more before reinforcing.



> I worry that there might also be a foot issue. …. The farrier is back in two weeks...so I will have that foot looked at then for soreness...


 As a hoof care practitioner, I am very sorry to hear the horse is 5yo & apparently not had regular hoofcare or been taught behaviours that allow for his basic welfare. But then you say the farrier checked him out already, so is it possible this is just *your* problem with his feet? If it is a general one – he hasn’t been taught – I’d be inclined to work on teaching him well first & ensuring you choose a farrier that is patient & considerate of him for the first fair few trims at least. I know regular hoofcare is important, but for the sake of good hoof care for the rest of his life, it’s worth putting it off a few weeks or more in order to get him confident with the procedure to begin with.



> He also accepts me standing up over him and leaning on the saddle. I just talk to him and pet him. He will SOMETIMES take a deep breath when I am up there... mostly he just watches me and rarely does he walk away.


 I would personally not bother even thinking about riding him or doing anything else to him, until you’ve first established a good relationship & communication with him on the ground.



> I am ashamed to admit that when he bites or attempts to bite, I smack him hard on his neck and yell, "NO!" really loud. All he does is calm down and let me do what I needed to do.


 Why do you do this if you’re ashamed of it?? I don’t think there is anything wrong with using punishment *when appropriate* so long as it’s used in a timely manner. Ie. *at the time of* the behaviour you want it to be associated with, not seconds later. BUT punishment is one of those methods that can be risky, badly taken & misunderstood, depending on the situation, individual, etc. Therefore it’s important to understand the principles that govern it – the psychology behind it, to know when & why it may or may not be a good idea. 

For a great little easy to read/understand book that explains the principles and use of punishment, effective positive reinforcement, and other principles of learning/teaching, Karen Pryor's 'Don't Shoot The Dog' is fantastic - it's not a dog book BTW, but a general book for the training of any species effectively - yes, including husbands, tho IME they're definitely one of the hardest beasties to train!:lol:

I also don’t personally think it’s a good choice of tactic in the situation & with the horse you describe. Firstly, the horse is ‘attempting to bite’ to communicate with you, that either what you’re doing to him is unpleasant &/or you don’t have a right to do it. He would have tried other ways of communicating before ‘escallating’ to this. Therefore you’ve been effectively punishing his communication already by ignoring him & continuing, then when he tries to ‘tell’ you, he gets walloped for it. Of course, dangerous behaviours must be addressed & not allowed, but I don’t think ‘tit for tat’ is the fairest, or most effective method generally.

Secondly, with a horse who is already rather assertive, perhaps is a natural challenger anyway, to fight fire with fire frequently just leads to a bigger blaze. He might see it as a ‘dominance game’ – something he would like to play. He may also see your retalliation as you being insecure of your ‘rank’(being more ‘alpha’ than ‘leader’ orientated) & wanting to challenge him too. Therefore I’d be hesitant about using pysical punishment with him, or indeed getting into any confrontations with him that could potentially be avoided.



> When he invades my space I sharply wrap the lead line with the shank and he draws back. If he doesn't have the lead rope I wave my hands in his face, give him an angry look and hiss. He stays away.


 Don’t know what you mean by “wrap the lead line with the shank” but I’d be starting politely & escalating to harshness only if/when necessary. I also like to set things up so he’d get *himself* in to trouble with the Wrong behaviour, rather than it coming directly from me, especially with an assertive type. Eg. If you’re randomly waving your arms or the rope around(like waving away flies) and he walks into that pressure & gets *himself* bumped for it, it tends to be a lot more effective and less likely to be taken as a personal insult or challenge than if you directly start ordering him round & punishing him for it. 

Also, most importantly, don’t forget to acknowledge and reinforce his Good behaviour(his moving/staying back), so he learns what TO do, not just what NOT to do. People tend to be good at giving feedback to an animal when they’re doing the Wrong Thing, but give them little if any reinforcement when they’re doing the Right Thing.



> So, any advice you have for me on being Alpha…


 I wouldn’t aspire to it, wouldn’t rise to any challenges. Rather try to come at it quietly *and respectFULLY* from other angles. Mark Rashid describes a similar sort of attitude and differentiation to what I’m trying to explain on his site as ‘Passive Leadership’ and Carolyn Resnick also describes the behaviour of ‘lead’ as opposed to ‘alpha’ horses in her book ‘Naked Liberty’.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

kaydeebug said:


> ugh unfortunately i know the feeling. my mare is so dominate she thinks she rules us humans as well. she will bite me when i got to feed her. but i try to not hit her in the face cause she is close to being extremey head shy from previous owners. she is just a pain. i can hardly do anything, she is cinchy so shell try to bite me and she is stirrup soar so shell try to bite me and when i kick the lope her she pins her ears back and when i turn her head to bend her neck she tries to bite my feet. she practically broke a fence down going after our new horse. to show that she is the dominate one


Sounds like it's overdue time for a change of tactics with this mare!:-(


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## kaydeebug (Aug 10, 2010)

haha i do not want to sell my horse. she is worth almost 3500. yes she has a bad attitude and her mind is always set to win and she wants to overrule me. but thats just her tryin to be dominant. i am hoping to get a new horse here soon. so ill have two.... plus my mare is my horse i am only 17 and a half and i own her, not my dad or grandpa (i live with them) i have the papers she is mine. so she is my first owned horse. and when im older i hope to breed her. and hopefully ill keep the colt and make him a professional racer. cause she was suppose to be if you know race bred horses. her sire is simi dancer and her grandsire is belindas boy


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Oh, I wasn't talking about selling her. I meant you changing your tactics of how you deal with her, so you can BOTH 'win' without any arguments. If she's well bred to potentially grow a good race horse, that's one thing - if they can run fast, that's all that really matters, but IMO I would be hesitant to breed from a horse such as this for other reasons, as if she hasn't got the easiest personality herself, she'll likely pass on this 'difficult' attitude to her foal & you might as well give a foal a fighting chance from the beginning by ensuring dam & stud are of sound & tractable mind to begin with.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

I agree with loosie on just about everything. Dont give up on her. It sounds like you wont. But here's the one thing. Take your time. To truely get a great partner out of her and a trusting relationship, you must first establish it. It took me a year to finally get the trust out of my horse and even longer for our great relationship. I again agree with loosie on the breeding part. I will tell you how exciting it can be to breed a horse you love hoping you can make the foal exactly what you want. But you cant do that without making sure you and your mare are on the same page. I think I said it before,, when you go out to her, instead of working her make it something fun for you and her. Touching, talking and just making her feel secure with you will greatly improve your relationship. All the other bad habits she does now will probably deminish as she gets to know and trust you as her leader. Spend time with her and get to know how she acts relaxed. What makes her relax. She isnt constantly aggressive is she? About feeding time and she wants to bite, are you talking about giving her grain? Is she alone right now? I mean in a seperate area? All I know is, that if you give her time and love without hassling with too much training, things will get better. Its up to you on how slow you can go. I hope some of this makes sense and I also hope you and your mare can establish a great relationship. Again, stay safe. You know what the limits are on saftey and how far you can go with her without a confrontation. Always end your time with her on a positive note. Good Luck and keep us informed.


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## kaydeebug (Aug 10, 2010)

ya i totally agree with you guys. she is by herself in her area because she wants to state she is the dominate one to our new horse. but she gets along with the gelding. so there all three in seperate areas. it goes my horse in front then the gelding then the new mare. but on the ground me and her get along great. i can walk up to her pet her walk around holding her tail. i guess you could say she pulls me around i just hold on to her tail(lightly) and she walks around sometimes making her own pattern or shell walk in a circle then hurry and turn. it doesnt bother her she shows no sign of aggression when we do that. the only time she is a pain when its time to ride. she becomes really hot. when i go to put the saddle on she pins her eyes back and turns her head. when i tighten the cinch she does it again. she is calm when my gpa goes to hold her head when i get everything situated. so i dunno if shes wanting attention while thats being done or what. and then when i go to lope her and i give her a kick she pins her ears back so i get after her. but when its time to go in the arena she is so hot that she freaks out.. i mean saturday was her first time not wanting to go thru the gate. she was acting like a high school rodeo horse and shes not. i only ride in a ridding club. so when i finally got in she was antsy, and crow hoping and so finally when i went to go she calmed down when we was running. i mean i have to go first on everything because she just doesnt stand. i have practiced and practiced. but when she is on the track she does just fine. its so weird... she is just a hot horse and its hard to get her out of that. and for the colt i could totally understand the behavioral problem... sept if i ever breed her it would be for a colt to race professionally then when the colt gets older like normal race horses and retires mayb id think about keeping it for arena work.... like i love my horse to death but there is always a point in time when you get tired of it and you want to just have a nice calm easy going horse. hek i could careless if the horse knew how to even run. its always nice to just have a easy going one


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## Cadence (Oct 30, 2009)

So, I took some of your advice today (various people who responded to my initial questions in this thread). 

Someone said that I should just hang with him and build a relation ship. I have had this horse since the end of June. At first, I would just spend time with them. He would follow me around and try to bite me. So, I knew that I had to stop that. I decided to try and longe him and get him closer to having a job. A trainer came out to work with him one day. He longed him for 20 min and said this horse is a jerk and he acts like a 2 yo. If he grew up with a stallion and was allowed to get his way his whole life, you are going to have a lot of work on your hands. He told me to longe him and get tack on him right away. The trainer was very tough on the horse and told me that I had to be because this horse is soooo stubborn and dominant. 

When I visited him today, I had a "lead horse" walk, erect shoulders, looking forward, walking with purpose. I made him respect my space by not letting him crowd me. He respected my wishes. Then, I walked over to him, put the lead rope on him, walked off without looking back at him and then, asked him to whoa, and petted him when he did what I asked. Finally, I tied him and petted him gently with long strokes for 10 minutes. He just stood there quietly, moving only to shoo flies. When I released him he didn't try to bite! I don't know if that is progress. It is stressful to me to have to be that way. I like to be relaxed around horses and just let the relationship be natural. Will it always be this way? 

I really don't think that horse likes me???


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Cadence said:


> At first, I would just spend time with them. He would follow me around and try to bite me. .... He told me to longe him and get tack on him right away. The trainer was very tough on the horse and told me that I had to be because this horse is soooo stubborn and dominant.


I was one of those to suggest you build a good relationship first, but that's not to say you allow him to boss you round & treat you like another horse. With a personality like this, as suggested, I'd be inclined to start from the other side of a fence & teach him 'manners' first. You don't have to be 'bossy' yourself, just consistent & firm & teach him what behaviours work for him(he's rewarded for) & what behaviours never work(he's not reinforced & there may be unpleasant consequences... such as no feed for 'rudeness'). 

As for this trainer, everyone has different opinions & experiences. My own stem from studying behavioural psychology, equine ethology & behaviour, and working with, among others, with a number of 'damaged', 'untrainable', 'vicious', etc, etc... horses. I have come to believe attitudes such as this trainers, and the methods they tend to employ are unhelpful and often further damaging to the horse & his ability to become tractable. They tend to often further cement any negative attitudes & behaviours in horses of strong personalities. Then the horses get further labels as 'untrainable', 'vicious', etc....

As I tried - possibly badly - to explain, I believe it is important to *avoid* being confrontational and aggressive yourself towards the horse - be it with direct physical punishments or attacks, or with the 'work' you 'make' the horse do. Instead, finding ways of making the Right things actually Good Things, so they 'work' for him and yourself. Instead of going into battle with him, find ways of giving him what he wants at the same time as doing as you want. Part of this is starting small & easy, not just rushing into lots of hard work. When you get as far as what you now perceive yourself as 'work'(if you think of it as that, how does he see it??), try to ensure it's actually 'play' for him.

Of course, this is only my opinion, but that's all anyone can give you. 



> When I visited him today, I had a "lead horse" walk, erect shoulders, looking forward, walking with purpose. I made him respect my space by not letting him crowd me. He respected my wishes. Then, I walked over to him, put the lead rope on him, walked off without looking back at him and then, asked him to whoa, and petted him when he did what I asked. Finally, I tied him and petted him gently with long strokes for 10 minutes. He just stood there quietly, moving only to shoo flies. When I released him he didn't try to bite! I don't know if that is progress. It is stressful to me to have to be that way. I like to be relaxed around horses and just let the relationship be natural. Will it always be this way?


I think yes, if you're confrontational about it, it will always be that way. He may accept you today, but decide he's up for a challenge tomorrow. If you want to use the 'dominance theory' in practice, you'll only 'win' at the expense of his 'loss' and if he's so assertive & playful, you'll always need to watch your back. - On that note, I would not turn your back on him, walk in front of him, particularly at this point in time. You should be driving him, or at least leading from beside him. For one you can keep your attention on him & gauge when he may try something & secondly, alpha horses generally 'push' their herdmates along, so don't let him get more practice at pushing you around. If on the other hand, you quit challenging him, you should be able to develop a mutual arrangement.

NB my attitude may sound all soft & fluffy, that I let horses get away with stuff, but I am quite firm & will not tolerate 'bad manners', etc. It's just that I approach it differently to some. 



> I really don't think that horse likes me???


I'm not surprised, as it sounds mutual & you don't seem to be trying to be liked. Sorry if that sounds harsh, it's just the way it seems from what you've told.


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## Cadence (Oct 30, 2009)

loosie said:


> I was one of those to suggest you build a good relationship first, but that's not to say you allow him to boss you round & treat you like another horse. With a personality like this, as suggested, I'd be inclined to start from the other side of a fence & teach him 'manners' first. You don't have to be 'bossy' yourself, just consistent & firm & teach him what behaviours work for him(he's rewarded for) & what behaviours never work(he's not reinforced & there may be unpleasant consequences... such as no feed for 'rudeness').
> 
> As for this trainer, everyone has different opinions & experiences. My own stem from studying behavioural psychology, equine ethology & behaviour, and working with, among others, with a number of 'damaged', 'untrainable', 'vicious', etc, etc... horses. I have come to believe attitudes such as this trainers, and the methods they tend to employ are unhelpful and often further damaging to the horse & his ability to become tractable. They tend to often further cement any negative attitudes & behaviours in horses of strong personalities. Then the horses get further labels as 'untrainable', 'vicious', etc....
> 
> ...


I think that if you only take in to consideration what I have shared with you it is likely to think that way!  lol I have read everything I can get my hands on regarding horse behavior, body language and training. I have tried, had people watch, ask for advice and talk to trainers. People tell me it isn't me. They try to work with the gelding too and have trouble. 

I try to do things with this horse, talk nice, pet him, build a relationship. The reason why I came to this forum is because the minute I am nice and praise him, is when he tries to bite, kick or challenge. So, I have to spend soooo much time saying the same thing over and over to him: NO stop bitiing, NO Give me space, NO stop kicking...etc. When he listens I do tell him he is good. The thing is, he doesn't care if "I" think he is good! 

I need to know how to get him to LIKE praise as a way of me saying, "good keep doing that." and not turn around and do the misdeed, (seriously) five minutes later. 

I hope that I don't come across as an ogre. I don't walk around yelling at this horse but, I have found that I HAVE to be tough with him. I just want to know if I will have to be this tough every day. I want to know if a horse like this IS fixable.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

kaydeebug said:


> only time she is a pain when its time to ride. she becomes really hot. when i go to put the saddle on she pins her eyes back and turns her head. when i tighten the cinch she does it again. .... when i go to lope her and i give her a kick she pins her ears back so i get after her. but when its time to go in the arena she is so hot that she freaks out..


This illustrates that words alone can only convey so much & are open to interpretation, because this reply gives me a rather different impression of your mare than the last ones did.:wink:

The above gives me the impression that your mare's major problem is likely pain related. She is likely *reacting* to a painful saddle & trying to communicate to you that it hurts. The behaviour in relation to the arena may be from current experiences or due to bad experiences there in the past - physical or mental - so the association with it is 'sour'. Loping & tight turns, etc also require the horse's body to be in a different shape, of which a restrictive saddle may be blocking. I'd want to absolutely rule out/treat any causes of pain/discomfort before just trying to 'retrain' her. I would also see if her behaviour changes with a treeless or bareback.

Trouble is, after much learning on my part(& having a horse who won't tolerate any discomfort) it seems that most stock standard saddles(& even many expensive custom made ones) are too narrow in angle &/or gullet &/or too long &/or have too much 'rock' for most horses, when they're in motion at least. Most saddles may actually fit the horse *either* at a standstill *or* while moving. And most people also seem to only understand how to 'fit' a saddle when the horse is stationary. Balance International have a heap of good info, pics, etc on their site if you want to learn more about saddle fit & horse comfort.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Firstly, I appreciate all we'll ever get here are bits of a whole story. Without knowing the situation, I know it's all open to interpretation, and I try to keep that in mind & not assume. No, I don't think you are an ogre of any kind, based on these posts:lol:, but I hope I haven't come across as one either, because I've basically disagreed with much of what you've said.



Cadence said:


> the minute I am nice and praise him, is when he tries to bite, kick or challenge. So, I have to spend soooo much time saying the same thing over and over to him: NO stop bitiing, NO Give me space, NO stop kicking...etc. When he listens I do tell him he is good. The thing is, he doesn't care if "I" think he is good! ..........
> I need to know how to get him to LIKE praise


I think his personality & whatever preconceived attitudes he's formed sound like 'retraining' him could be rather long-winded and will necessarily require very particular and utterly consistent handling, for a while at least. It sounds like you may be trying to be firm OR nice to him, or at least this is the way he may see it, and this inconsistency is likely part of the problem. Perhaps he sees it as taking turns in the 'dominance' game.

Also another thing I get from the above is that you're confusing words, praise, perhaps grooming - what YOU perceive as nice for actual positive reinforcement to HIM. A positive reinforcement can be anything that is truly desirable for THAT animal at THAT time. Words or your happiness are not something that is actually desirable, a Good Thing. *Praise can become a 'secondary reinforcer' or 'bridging signal' - that is, you can train them to work for praise, but it's not an actual reward, so I think it clouds the issues if you don't yet understand the basics. So you need to reward him with things he actually wants. 

Food treats are the most generally effective & convenient reinforcer for most animals. I find it's also the only really powerful reinforcer for horses that are either abused or don't enjoy being touched by people for whatever reason, but that once you get the ball rolling & they find you to be a Good Thing, a good scratch or such often becomes nice for them and you can use this & other things that may not have originally been rewarding for them.

Beginning lessons on the other side of the fence, you don't have to be 'bossy' OR nice. You can just be neutral & consistent. You don't have to be nagging him all the time about what not to do, just ensure that those behaviours NEVER work for him, don't earn him a treat. If you make it as easy as possible for him to do some 'right' things first, so he learns that he can earn - he learns that his behaviour governs when the rewards are forthcoming - he will start to actively try a whole gamut of behaviours to see what works & will quit trying behaviours that don't work. It's just a matter of sorting out what you want to reinforce and what you won't accept - such as mugging, dirty looks, taking food with his teeth, whatever. My horses will come screaming across the paddock to me, run right up & slam into reverse at the last possible second, to take one step back, because this is how I've taught them to 'say please', effectively.

Once you have taught him the basics in a non-confrontational & safe manner, then he will far safer & nicer to be around with far less punishment/telling off. Of course you still need to pay attention and be as firm as necessary, but remembering to also be as nice as possible, the firmness should be a lot less in quantity and quality - far less confrontational & more about rewarding the Good Stuff he gives you.

While I do things a fair bit differently to 'purist' Clicker Trainers; don't use a clicker, do use a fair bit of negative reinforcement(removal of pressure) & occasional punishment, etc, I think learning about Clicker Training is a great way to teach yourself to be skillful in use & understanding of behavioural principles. I don't think many of the specifics(such as food treats, clickers, etc) are what is important, but it's the principles that govern their use. Not sure if I already mentioned 'Don't Shoot The Dog' by Karen Pryor, a fantastic little easy to understand book by a dolphin & whale trainer of Seaworld & the founder of 'clicker training', but you can also get HEAPS of info just from Googling it.


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## kaydeebug (Aug 10, 2010)

i have tried all sorts of ways with the saddle, tried different saddle, different saddle blankets..... i guess she is just cinchy.... it happens.... and she is fine when i ride her. she shows no pain or anything... she shows no aggression i rode her down at club. of course she was very cinchy and tries to bite you,.... but she wass calm tonight and easy going almost as if i had a new horse


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi, so you've tried her bareback? Are you absolutely positive the other saddles that you tried were comfortable on her? How did you gauge this? Horses tend to put up & shut up with a lot, so just because she wasn't reactive at all times unfortunately doesn't mean there isn't a problem. 

Horses are not 'just cinchy' without a good reason. Perhaps, *assuming* the saddles themselves have been OK, the saddling process was too abrupt, the girth tightened too much &/or too quickly. Her attitude may not be about current practice either, but may be habitual from previous bad treatment. With considerate, positive training, you can change her attitude, so long as what you're doing now is not hurting her.



> she is fine when i ride her. she shows no pain or anything...


I don't get this comment, considering your previous post - seems to be a contradiction?? I thought she had problems when loping her?


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## Cadence (Oct 30, 2009)

loosie said:


> Firstly, I appreciate all we'll ever get here are bits of a whole story. Without knowing the situation, I know it's all open to interpretation, and I try to keep that in mind & not assume. No, I don't think you are an ogre of any kind, based on these posts:lol:, but I hope I haven't come across as one either, because I've basically disagreed with much of what you've said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you Loosie!


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

I do not have time to ready everyone else's posts so I will just start here and answer your orininal post @OP.
My horse, a 5.5 year old gelding, is the second most unyielding horse my trainer has ever met(the first being a stallion in Europe). My trainer is top level, and trains horses for grand prix. He is dominant and unyielding. He can be aggressive and can just try to run away. It has taken 5.5 months to get him to finally give in. In those five months, it would take thirty minutes to get his head down once. He would be lunged for 2-3 hours and still not give in, no matter how sweaty or tired he was. He'd buck, rear, bit, bolt, kick, and fight the vienna reins he was in. He flipped over a few times and dragged two trainers around(yes, he needed two trainers). *FINALLY* he has given in, and he is submissive and much happier  . Now the training begins...

Your horse doesn't sound too too bad _*yet*_. He, without a leader, will become much worse. The best thing to do would be to get a trainer but if you can't, here's some advice:

You have to step in and be the lead horse, even though you smack your horse a few times, *he thinks that he is the leader.* Horses can take a lot, they beat eachother up waaaay worse than we do. You need to show him who is boss, but only when it is necessary. 

Let's start with leading: He should be walking at your side, with his head low on a loose rope. If you stop he should stop. SOooooo, start leading him and then stop. If he doesn't stop then you turn around and force him back twenty feet really fast. Then do it again, if walks past you again, to it again. Take the end of the whip and hit his chest. Don't whip his chest, use the end of the whip and do hard pokes to his chest. Once he is backed up put your hand behind his poll and push his head down, that is submissions. Then walk forward, he must keep his head down. Keep doing that until he listens. 

Now for picking hooves: If he doesn't pick it up, smack him on the shoulder and growl "lift". If he doesn't, hit him harder. He'll get the point. Once you have the hoof, if he tries to move it, give him a warning "growl". If he keeps moving it give him a good hard smack and try to keep holding the hoof, if he puts it down, just pick it up again. Keep doing that. If he bites you, get mad at him. What would the lead mare do if a "lesser" horse bit her? 

Now for lunging, I'm not sure you want to force your horse's head down quite yet, but loose vienna reins would help a lot but don't use them until he is listening to you and understands what they mean. If he stops and faces you then give a pull on the lune line and come around behind him and ask him forward again. Also, if you see him slowing down, growl "geeet up" and hit the whip against the ground. If he doesn't listen, growl again, step towards him and hit the whip right behind him. If he stops, crack the whip and send him forward.

EDIT: The petting, loving, and treats comes after he respects you. None of that unti later.


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## Nature2horses (Feb 24, 2010)

SPhorsemanship said:


> I do not have time to ready everyone else's posts so I will just start here and answer your orininal post @OP.
> My horse, a 5.5 year old gelding, is the second most unyielding horse my trainer has ever met(the first being a stallion in Europe). My trainer is top level, and trains horses for grand prix. He is dominant and unyielding. He can be aggressive and can just try to run away. It has taken 5.5 months to get him to finally give in. In those five months, it would take thirty minutes to get his head down once. He would be lunged for 2-3 hours and still not give in, no matter how sweaty or tired he was. He'd buck, rear, bit, bolt, kick, and fight the vienna reins he was in. He flipped over a few times and dragged two trainers around(yes, he needed two trainers). *FINALLY* he has given in, and he is submissive and much happier  . Now the training begins...
> 
> Your horse doesn't sound too too bad _*yet*_. He, without a leader, will become much worse. The best thing to do would be to get a trainer but if you can't, here's some advice:
> ...


Isn't that sort of abusive?


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## Cadence (Oct 30, 2009)

SPhorsemanship said:


> I do not have time to ready everyone else's posts so I will just start here and answer your orininal post @OP.
> My horse, a 5.5 year old gelding, is the second most unyielding horse my trainer has ever met(the first being a stallion in Europe). My trainer is top level, and trains horses for grand prix. He is dominant and unyielding. He can be aggressive and can just try to run away. It has taken 5.5 months to get him to finally give in. In those five months, it would take thirty minutes to get his head down once. He would be lunged for 2-3 hours and still not give in, no matter how sweaty or tired he was. He'd buck, rear, bit, bolt, kick, and fight the vienna reins he was in. He flipped over a few times and dragged two trainers around(yes, he needed two trainers). *FINALLY* he has given in, and he is submissive and much happier  . Now the training begins...
> 
> Your horse doesn't sound too too bad _*yet*_. He, without a leader, will become much worse. The best thing to do would be to get a trainer but if you can't, here's some advice:
> ...


I think you understand what I am going through. lol Your advice speaks to my horses "mind set". So far, this week, all we are able to accomplish is just respecting and moving out of my space. I use body language to make him move or stay away. Then, I shift my posture say come near. Maybe next week I will try leading him again. I will try some of the things that you have suggested. 
Thank you !!!!


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## Cadence (Oct 30, 2009)

Nature2horses said:


> Isn't that sort of abusive?



It is sad to think that someone has to resort to such behavior. In a perfect world, I would have a gelding that someone socialized/trained properly. Unfortunately, there are some horses, that day after day, believe they are in charge. No matter what you do, they will challenge you as if challenging another horse with teeth, hooves, charging, bucking, and pawing out; every time you turn around! I am not the type of person to ever lose my temper with a horse but, I do watch how they live and interact in a herd type setting. What I am finding successful, is what the woman above describes. I am treating this horse like a lead horse treats a subordinate. Amazingly, as rough as it might sound, the gelding finally responds. He is not afraid of me. He just stops invading my space, trampling, biting..etc., The gelding finds this less confusing because I am speaking in a language that says loud and clear, YOU MUST STOP THAT AND BEHAVE! I am willing to do that, if I am getting results. Otherwise, if I can communicate leadership to this ultradominant horse, then, I am going to get hurt. I know that in time, my consistent leadership may win respect. Respect leads to a type of relationship. This may not be the squishy lovey relationships I have with my two mares, but, he is just a different kind of horse.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Nature2horses said:


> Isn't that sort of abusive?


I wouldn't call it abuse, but I'd say it's pretty harsh approach, which won't work for every horse. But some horses need you to be more strict, and with others you have to be very gentle. 

Cadence, I didn't go thru all posts so may repeat what already was said... Do you know how he developed all these bad habits? 

I had very tough 1st month feeding when I moved my girls. The BO let them do whatever they wanted and fight for the food, so... They tried to do what they wanted. I made them back off the feed (and me) by slapping the chest and saying firm "No" every time they tried to crowd me. I never used the whip though. 

Now with biting let him run into your elbow or the head of the whip when he tries to bite. In this case it'll be _his_ choice to get what he gets, not you punishing him. And just be patient and consistent. Changes don't happen overnight (unfortunately :lol: ). Good luck with your boy!


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

Nature2horses said:


> Isn't that sort of abusive?


Actually, with horses like mine and the OP's, it can be cruel to *not* do it. None of it is the horse's fault even though it is the horse being "bad". The horse is being a horse -a very dominant horse. Horses are always innocent, they aren't humans, they don't do anything for revenge or greed; they do it because it is their nature. What I mean by it being cruel not to train it and put it in its place is that in the end the person and horse will get injured. The horse will go on and get worse and worse until it is probably out of control and sold. A horse like that will rarely find a good horse, so in a way you would be hurting the horse in the future. It's also cruel because if the horse gets worse, the horse will need harsher communication.

This "harsh" communication also doesn't necessarily have to be forever. Once the horse *truly *gives in, you should only need small corrections because the horse should know that if he doesn't listen he will be put in his place, so you do always have to be a leader. Once the horse has given in, you will still have to give it corrections, maybe more than with other horses though because some horses will test their leader more than others.


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## Cadence (Oct 30, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> I wouldn't call it abuse, but I'd say it's pretty harsh approach, which won't work for every horse. But some horses need you to be more strict, and with others you have to be very gentle.
> 
> Cadence, I didn't go thru all posts so may repeat what already was said... Do you know how he developed all these bad habits?
> 
> ...


I do know how the behaviors came about. The previous owner was a friend who lives in Michigan. She had two horses, an Arabian mare and a QH that they THOUGHT was a gelding but in fact had cryptorchidism (sp??). The "gelding" bred the mare, Lady and she gave birth to Aries, the gelding I know own. He was first raised with his mother and then placed with his father a stallion when weaned. He grew up eating, playing and sleeping with the stallion. They didn't work with him until he was four. They hired a trainer to come out about 10 times. She backed the gelding (walk/trot). The previous owner, didn't tell me that she never cleaned his feet, lead him around, that he bites...she sold him to me as having no vices. 

I met the horse a year ago. He was and still is a curious friendly thing. I fell in love with him then. The difference is, at the time, when I met him I wasn't exerting my dominance on him. Now, that I ask him to lead, longe etc., he is aggressive and fights back.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

At least you can see from his history/lack of training that his behavior is perfectly normal.


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

Cadence said:


> I met the horse a year ago. He was and still is a curious friendly thing. I fell in love with him then. The difference is, at the time, when I met him I wasn't exerting my dominance on him. Now, that I ask him to lead, longe etc., he is aggressive and fights back.


That is what happens, they can seem nice and sweet until you ask them to submit and then some will literally fight to their death. I'm glad my horse finally gave in, but I think there are some horses that was die before submitting to a human.

My gelding wasn't aggressive at all to me, I could do whatever i wanted with him but sometimes he just wouldn't cooperate. To make a long story short I had him for 1.5 years after riding at an "inexperienced" stable that brainwashes all their riders. I bought my horse there and he was always a sweet heart. Then I moved to a new stable and a *real* trainer got on and then the fighting started. He'd let himself be ridden, lead around, pick up his feet, be caught, but he wouldn't submit, especially his head. I guess he felt in control if his head was up so that is why he was always ok. I would say it was my fault for not seeing it. Thank god I found a trainer that would help me even though they are $$$. My horse is quite different from your horse in the way that if he doesn't have to submit, he's not aggressive, he doesn't bite. He is always good if he is with other horses, so one of his main problems was being herd bound, and he didn't even think once about giving in to a human, until now.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Northern said:


> At least you can see from his history/lack of training that his behavior is perfectly normal.


I agree. I wonder how did they manage to trim him then if he doesn't know how to pick the hoofs? 


Well... You have a long tough road in front of you. The very good thing IMHO is he's not _afraid _of people, just being very dominant, so that should make it easier to deal with. Just _*stay safe *_and don't give up when you feel frustrated.


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> Just _*stay safe *_and don't give up when you feel frustrated.


Yes, be safe, horses can be very dangerous especially when they think they can treat you like a horse.


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## Cadence (Oct 30, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> I agree. I wonder how did they manage to trim him then if he doesn't know how to pick the hoofs?
> 
> 
> Well... You have a long tough road in front of you. The very good thing IMHO is he's not _afraid _of people, just being very dominant, so that should make it easier to deal with. Just _*stay safe *_and don't give up when you feel frustrated.



That is a good question! I asked that of them, myself. They told me that the farrier was this great big guy with arms and legs like tree trunks. He just snatched up the foot and wedged it between his legs. The gelding never had a chance of getting it back until the guy was done trimming and sadly, they only trimmed once in a great while too. When the horses arrived their feet were long, split and the mare had an abscess. She still has cracks in her feet from their neglect! Grrr!

I know I have a long road.  If I get help from a trainer then I won't mind.


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## Cadence (Oct 30, 2009)

I should add, he does know how. He just doesn't like the sensation and tries to take his foot back aggressively and slams it down.


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

My horse did the exact same thing. Once he starts moving it (because he swings it, right?), growl, and then if he puts it down then give a good hard smack on his belly(I said shoulder last time but belly is better) and yell/growl "no". Pick it up again, if he doesn't pick it up, growl(warning, I think you know what I mean by growl as deepen your voice sort of) and then if he still doesn't pick it up give a good hard smack on his belly. It would be better to to a session of ground work to show your dominance before you start with the hooves so he is aware that you are in charge.


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## Cadence (Oct 30, 2009)

SPhorsemanship said:


> My horse did the exact same thing. Once he starts moving it (because he swings it, right?), growl, and then if he puts it down then give a good hard smack on his belly(I said shoulder last time but belly is better) and yell/growl "no". Pick it up again, if he doesn't pick it up, growl(warning, I think you know what I mean by growl as deepen your voice sort of) and then if he still doesn't pick it up give a good hard smack on his belly. It would be better to to a session of ground work to show your dominance before you start with the hooves so he is aware that you are in charge.



Yes, I know what you mean about pull and swing away. I do "growl" and will add the smack. I didn't smack bc I thought that I would get kicked actually! lol Also, I do ground work first!  You are right...about the importance of establishing (REMINDING) him. Seriously, what is it about dominance and picking up feet! You would have thought I was insulting him...!


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

I will suggest, until you have dominance 100% and know you wont be kicked, you could use a lead rope and wrap it around his fetlock and then twist the rope so it is snug around his leg and then from farther away from his leg, you can hold his leg up. It is also easier to do it while holding the rope. If he holds it for 5 seconds, let him put it down and reward him, he also must know when he is being good.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I disagree with growling & hitting around the issue of picking up hooves! He'll think you're a predator big time, & trusting you with his feet will be at zero!

It's a TRUST issue--giving someone his feet is about the most trusting thing a horse can do! He's a prey animal; his feet are his survival!

You build trust: start with trying to keep his feet on the ground! You make being around his legs & feet a pleasant experience: rub them, massage them, till he's not wary of that. THEN go to lifting each leg gently with a rope, then with your hands.


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

Northern said:


> It's a TRUST issue-


From what has been told, this is no trust issue. Trust can only be formed when a horse has a proper relationship with a human. If the horse can go boss the person around, then why would he trust them to protect him if he is the stronger one? She has to show her dominance first and that is when the horse will trust her. 

I've been in the same situation, the horse isn't scared of having his feet up, he knows they are supposed to be up and he doesn't want to. Being with a horse isn't always babying them in a calm voice, most horses just won't take you seriously then. Fear could be involved depending on where the owner is asking for the feet, but letting the horse get scared and do what he wants would be worse than having the horse knowing what he is supposed to do.

ADD: In some situations, as with my horse, they can be frightened and are still dominant so they want to leave and go to where they feel safe, so they will use their dominance. If they feel you are their leader, they won't need to go leave to where they feel safe.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

SPhorsemanship said:


> My horse did the exact same thing. Once he starts moving it (because he swings it, right?), growl, and then if he puts it down then give a good hard smack on his belly(I said shoulder last time but belly is better) and yell/growl "no". Pick it up again, if he doesn't pick it up, growl(warning, I think you know what I mean by growl as deepen your voice sort of) and then if he still doesn't pick it up give a good hard smack on his belly. It would be better to to a session of ground work to show your dominance before you start with the hooves so he is aware that you are in charge.


I'm afraid this approach may lead only to stronger resistance. While I have no problems growling or slapping to move a horse out of the personal space (because in some sense it's imitating of the alpha mare behavior), giving hoofs is something VERY different and VERY unnatural for the horse. I'm sorry, but for this particular problem gentleness, patience, and lots of praise for the tiny effort from the horse are the best way to go. Picking up the hoof with the rope, hold, and then let it go (preferably before he tries to drag it away) - I totally agree with that approach, but not hitting a horse in belly.


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> - I totally agree with that approach, but not hitting a horse in belly.


I think it depends on the situation, because if the horse knows what he should be doing, but doesn't want to, babying won't work.


@the OP, what is the horse's experience with his hooves being picked up? Has he had a lot of it done or is it new to him? If it is new to him, then what the previous person said is the way to go, no getting mad at him for something he doesn't understand. With my horse, he had been picking up his hooves for three years and then he decided that he didn't like to pick up is left front hoof, and I knew that he knew better.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

OP has said that prior owners neglected to teach him to pick hooves up, & neglected regular hoof maintenance. Naturally, horse is going to need to learn to trust a human with his feet.


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

again @ OP, how much work have you done with him? Has he ever been good? In other words, is he just learning now the concept of picking up his feet because if this is the case then you want to teach him by pressure/release and rewarding him.


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## Cadence (Oct 30, 2009)

SPhorsemanship said:


> I think it depends on the situation, because if the horse knows what he should be doing, but doesn't want to, babying won't work.
> 
> 
> @the OP, what is the horse's experience with his hooves being picked up? Has he had a lot of it done or is it new to him? If it is new to him, then what the previous person said is the way to go, no getting mad at him for something he doesn't understand. With my horse, he had been picking up his hooves for three years and then he decided that he didn't like to pick up is left front hoof, and I knew that he knew better.


This gelding knows what picking his feet up means and it isn't unpleasant. He does respond to smacks, vocal, "QUIT IT!!!" and body language. I can communicate that he did good by body language. I put the foot down, I don't drive him forward with the longe whip, I in essence release pressure. 

I don't know how to make this horse get it when I am happy with something he does using the conventional methods of saying, "Goood boyyyyy!" doesn't work. Petting in the places on their body that they tell you to pat doesn't work. Food just encourages him to be more mouthy and he bites and looks for more treats,.... He doesn't make the connection or care really. I can make him walk quietly and then he will whoa perfectly. I pet him on the neck and say goood boyyy and he reaches over to bite me. That is what this horse is like. lol


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## Cadence (Oct 30, 2009)

Cadence said:


> This gelding knows what picking his feet up means and it isn't unpleasant. He does respond to smacks, vocal, "QUIT IT!!!" and body language. I can communicate that he did good by body language. I put the foot down, I don't drive him forward with the longe whip, I in essence release pressure.
> 
> I don't know how to make this horse get it when I am happy with something he does using the conventional methods of saying, "Goood boyyyyy!" doesn't work. Petting in the places on their body that they tell you to pat doesn't work. Food just encourages him to be more mouthy and he bites and looks for more treats,.... He doesn't make the connection or care really. I can make him walk quietly and then he will whoa perfectly. I pet him on the neck and say goood boyyy and he reaches over to bite me. That is what this horse is like. lol


I will take a video of me working with Aries and post it tomorrow if I can!  lol


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

Ok so he knows what you are asking him, then you are right to do what I told you first. He sounds quite aggressive, he is much different from my horse but similar to a small pony I worked with before. To me it sounds like a nippy, pushy horse that was never corrected and he obviously doesn't understand that he is supposed to submit to a human.

No treats!!! That isn't good, you are right, it just gets them more energized and out of control. Now for this biting after you praise him, he should have been put in his place enough that he wouldn't even* think* about doing that. 

This is an important question:* When he is with other horses, where is he in the pecking order?*


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## Cadence (Oct 30, 2009)

SPhorsemanship said:


> Ok so he knows what you are asking him, then you are right to do what I told you first. He sounds quite aggressive, he is much different from my horse but similar to a small pony I worked with before. To me it sounds like a nippy, pushy horse that was never corrected and he obviously doesn't understand that he is supposed to submit to a human.
> 
> *Yes, that is true! From what the previous owner tells me, they had little contact with the gelding. *
> 
> ...


This is an interesting question. I have the gelding and mare on my property. I separated them, but they can see each other. His history with other horses: he was kept with his mom until weaning age. Placed with his father (a stallion) for a few years. The stallion got to be a problem (do you see the pattern here) and they sold him. They gelded Aries and put him back in with his mother. Aries and his mother moved here with me in late June 2010. So, I think he has been top dog for several years! lol You bring up a good point. Maybe I can put him in a herd with other horses and let them give him an eye opener. I wonder if I can find something affordable. How much time would that take??? Three months or six months. ???


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## Cadence (Oct 30, 2009)

Cadence said:


> I will take a video of me working with Aries and post it tomorrow if I can!  lol



We have rain in NY ....no video today!  lol


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

Cadence said:


> . So, I think he has been top dog for several years! lol You bring up a good point. Maybe I can put him in a herd with other horses and let them give him an eye opener. I wonder if I can find something affordable. How much time would that take??? Three months or six months. ???


This is a problem because if he is top dog with horses, he thinks he will be top dog with you. To get him to *fully* submit, the amount of force from a human would be abusive so I think the best bet would be to just keep him in line. The best best best thing ever would be to find an alpha mare that is more alpha than him, or even two alpha mares. Maybe that would mean bringing him to another stable or talking around because if he is forced to submit, there will be a huge change. 

About the biting and him biting you 20 minutes after a correction, that is perfectly normal for a dominant horse. He is testing you, he will always be testing you and every time he tests you, you have to pass that "are you fit to be my leader" test. You must be consistant.



Cadence said:


> . I was longing him daily for 25 min w/t/c and he would pull his shenanigans everytime. I would us a shank over the nose and the longe whip on him. The severity of the correction went from mild on up until he performed the action I wanted. He knows what I am asking. He is thinking about whether he wants to do it. I also growl, and sometimes that helped.


I want you to do something different. Ask him to do whatever you are asking and if he doesn't then give him a warning growl. Then if he doesn't do it, he gets the harsh correction, not the mild one. In the herd, the lead mare doesn't start out with mild nips if she doesn't get what she wants. She'll pin her ears back as a warning and then if the horse doesn't listen he gets a big bite on the butt. You see if you start out mild with him,(because he already knows what you are asking) he will think "oh, well she gave a warning growl and if I don't listen I will get a pointless tap on the bum. hahaha" but if you do give him a harsh correction right after the warning growl he will think "oh, if I don't do what she wants, I get in trouble, I better do what she wants". You'll be like an annoying bug if you don't show that you mean business. You'll be teaching him to listen to you after you ask him five times, not after you ask him once.


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## Cadence (Oct 30, 2009)

SPhorsemanship said:


> This is a problem because if he is top dog with horses, he thinks he will be top dog with you. To get him to *fully* submit, the amount of force from a human would be abusive so I think the best bet would be to just keep him in line. The best best best thing ever would be to find an alpha mare that is more alpha than him, or even two alpha mares. Maybe that would mean bringing him to another stable or talking around because if he is forced to submit, there will be a huge change.
> 
> About the biting and him biting you 20 minutes after a correction, that is perfectly normal for a dominant horse. He is testing you, he will always be testing you and every time he tests you, you have to pass that "are you fit to be my leader" test. You must be consistant.
> 
> ...


Right! I see. I will do that!  Thanks!


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

About the growling: you want your horse to see you as his leader horse, as a non-predator; growling might register "Predator!" to his instincts. I'd try less cougar-like sounds, like "Shht!"


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

It's not actually growling, it's just the best way we can explain it. I know what you're getting at, but it's not something we are going to worry about, especially when the horse thinks he is dominating us. I will try explain what I mean by growl.

It is a sound in a lowered tone of voice, relative quick, and somewhat hoarse. It is the low tone of voice that helps the horse understand because it is so much different from just talking whereas yelling "hey!" or "no!" is in a normal tone of voice.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Nature2horses said:


> Isn't that sort of abusive?


Mmm, in my opinion it is anyway. It is also a good way to provoke more aggression(or fear reactions) from some horses, so potentially make them more dangerous. And I personally do not want my horse to become my subservient slave anyway, I aim for a friendship, a partnership.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Cadence said:


> No matter what you do, they will challenge you as if challenging another horse with teeth, hooves, charging, bucking, and pawing out; every time you turn around!


It is not 'no matter what you do', but there are some horses that will always answer to a challenge if one is offered. If you've shown yourself to be up for a game, they'll be willing to join in the fray. If you didn't come at it from that perspective, you might be surprised how things can change.



> YOU MUST STOP THAT AND BEHAVE!


Yes, that sort of 'message' works much of the time, assuming the horse thinks you're worth listening to. Most horses are content to fall in behind someone who shows good leadership. But some horses are always looking for a challenge and while they may sometimes accept the above message from you, other days, he'll likely say "You & who's army??" So yes, you can definitely get results most of the time with domineering, forceful methods, but you'll need to always watch your back, for the day he decides it's his turn.


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

loosie said:


> Mmm, in my opinion it is anyway. It is also a good way to provoke more aggression(or fear reactions) from some horses, so potentially make them more dangerous. And I personally do not want my horse to become my subservient slave anyway, I aim for a friendship, a partnership.


To have a proper relationship you need respect. How can you have a partnership if your horse is biting you?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Cadence said:


> Seriously, what is it about dominance and picking up feet! You would have thought I was insulting him...!


Seriously, sounds pretty insulting to me too. Have you ever watched colts or stallions play fight? They often go for eachother's forelegs. 

I know I obviously have a very different mindset to you & sporthorse, and I can only offer you my opinion & experience - it's of course entirely your choice whether you take any of it, but if you've already been attempting SH's type of treatment & it's not working, might be worth considering a change of tack.

You said the horse was friendly & curious when you first met him. I'd be doing all I could to get that back & retain it, rather than knocking it out of him.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

SPhorsemanship said:


> To have a proper relationship you need respect. How can you have a partnership if your horse is biting you?


It's perhaps our perception of the term 'respect' that's the difference. I never said I accepted biting or any such. I just teach them 'manners' without using force & intimidation. I don't believe that you can force 'respect', you can only *earn* it. It also has to be mutual too. If you are not respectFUL to the horse, you won't earn any from them.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

SPhorsemanship said:


> To have a proper relationship you need respect. How can you have a partnership if your horse is biting you?


... & then just thinking of the biting thing.... If I could have the very obviously strong partnerships of someone like Guy McLean or Alexander Nevzorov has with their horses, then I'd be stoked - don't think I'm quite in their league yet:lol: - and yet I name those 2 because I've seen both of them get bitten by their stallions in play - and take it as play! I personally want a slightly more... polite:wink: relationship from my horses & those I retrain, but it depends what you ask for, how you go about it & what you're prepared to accept I suppose.

NB If you don't know those 2 names, at least get onto YouTube & look them up before giving your opinion of them.


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

loosie said:


> but if you've already been attempting SH's type of treatment & it's not working, might be worth considering a change of tack.
> 
> You said the horse was friendly & curious when you first met him. I'd be doing all I could to get that back & retain it, rather than knocking it out of him.


I have only been helping her in the past few days, so my "method" has not made this horse like this. An update would be nice though!

This is my idea of a horse-human relationship. The horse must be submissive to the human, the human must be the leader. To trust the human, the horse must see the human as the leader. Once he sees the human does not hurt him and is a good leader, he starts to trust the human, and the human starts to trust the horse. Putting the horse in his place is not bad if you only do it when it is needed(like when the horse is biting).


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

loosie said:


> ... & then just thinking of the biting thing.... If I could have the very obviously strong partnerships of someone like Guy McLean or Alexander Nevzorov has with their horses, then I'd be stoked - don't think I'm quite in their league yet:lol: - and yet I name those 2 because I've seen both of them get bitten by their stallions in play - and take it as play! I personally want a slightly more... polite:wink: relationship from my horses & those I retrain, but it depends what you ask for, how you go about it & what you're prepared to accept I suppose.
> 
> NB If you don't know those 2 names, at least get onto YouTube & look them up before giving your opinion of them.


I have heard of Nevzorov and I would like to be able to do what he does, who wouldn't? But the fact is, he has much different experience in his training methods and he is the only one that can do it. My "method" isn't smacking every horse. This is a case of a very dominant horse, and in this case, sometimes it is necessary. To some horses, this could break all trust and to this horse(Op's horse), it is a correction. The relationship the Nevzorov has with his horses are very very different than most, and only he can do it while being safe. It has also taken him many years. Sadly, these days sport has taken over and horses don't have many years to form relationships and people don't have the knowledge and understanding that Nevzorov has so trying to have a relationship like that would be dangerous.

If you want to bring other trainers into this, I want you to look at Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling. He, in my opinion is the best trainer in the world. He, from the "first encounter" is the leader and he does it through"energy". He has the best relationships with horses, and he is who I have taken many parts of my methods from.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

SPhorsemanship said:


> I think it depends on the situation, because if the horse knows what he should be doing, but doesn't want to, babying won't work.


'Should' is a great word, isn't it?? And assuming what the horse 'knows'. For one, how do you know the horse 'knows' anything of the sort?? From the sounds of things, he only knows of being manhandled & forced by brute strength to 'submit'.(altho I suspect there's more to that). And as for 'should', why on earth should he do as you please, just because you please?? Why not give him a reason to *want* to do it, rather than attempting to bully him?


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

loosie said:


> 'Should' is a great word, isn't it?? And assuming what the horse 'knows'. For one, how do you know the horse 'knows' anything of the sort?? From the sounds of things, he only knows of being manhandled & forced by brute strength to 'submit'.(altho I suspect there's more to that). And as for 'should', why on earth should he do as you please, just because you please?? Why not give him a reason to *want* to do it, rather than attempting to bully him?


In the modern world, horses have to do things, whether we like it or not. If I could, I would do classical dressage, and work on forming relationships and have better, back and forth communication. It's hard for that to be done and people these days don't want to spend the time doing that and they don't have the experience to do that. Please read my former post.

It sounds like you come from a natural horsemanship way of training? I understand where you are coming from and from your earlier post could you explain how you "earn a horse's trust"? Have you ever worked with a dominant horse?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Cadence said:


> I don't know how to make this horse get it when I am happy with something he does using the conventional methods of saying, "Goood boyyyyy!" doesn't work. Petting in the places on their body that they tell you to pat doesn't work. Food just encourages him to be more mouthy and he bites and looks for more treats,.... I pet him on the neck and say goood boyyy and he reaches over to bite me. That is what this horse is like. lol


If you're saying "Goood Boooy" & haven't already established, through associating it with positive reinforcement, what you want it to mean to him, you may as well say "Blah blah BlaaaaH". Whatever cue, praise, whatever, you want the horse to understand, it needs to be taught with repetition of immediate consequences.

Petting is often something that fearful, untrusting horses perceive as punishment, and something that dominant horses see as people taking liberties they have no right to, so probably not an appropriate form of reinforcement at the moment, but something horses can learn to enjoy. 

Food of itself is not the problem here. But offering - or a horse knowing you have - Something Good without first teaching it manners, and teaching it what behaviours Work to get a reward *& what behaviours don't* is what gets people into trouble. That is why I suggested teaching this from the other side of a fence to begin with and establishing the rules before using them in other 'games'. It's not what *effective* reinforcements you use, but what you teach - inadvertantly or otherwise - with them that causes a horse to learn Good or Bad 'table' manners.


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

loosie said:


> If you're saying "Goood Boooy" & haven't already established, through associating it with positive reinforcement, what you want it to mean to him, you may as well say "Blah blah BlaaaaH". Whatever cue, praise, whatever, you want the horse to understand, it needs to be taught with repetition of *immediate consequences.*
> 
> Petting is often something that fearful, untrusting horses perceive as punishment, and something that dominant horses see as people taking liberties they have no right to, so probably not an appropriate form of reinforcement at the moment, but something horses can learn to enjoy.
> 
> Food of itself is not the problem here. But offering - or a horse knowing you have - Something Good without first teaching it manners, and teaching it what behaviours Work to get a reward *& what behaviours don't* is what gets people into trouble. That is why I suggested teaching this from the other side of a fence to begin with and establishing the rules before using them in other 'games'. It's not what *effective* reinforcements you use, but what you teach - inadvertantly or otherwise - with them that causes a horse to learn Good or Bad 'table' manners.


I agree 100% but what do you mean by immediate consequences?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

SPhorsemanship said:


> In the modern world, horses have to do things, whether we like it or not. If I could, I would do classical dressage, and work on forming relationships and have better, back and forth communication. It's hard for that to be done and people these days don't want to spend the time doing that and they don't have the experience to do that. Please read my former post.


Don't understand the relevance of the above comments. Don't get what 'modern's' got to do with anything, or dressage. Sure you're not, but sounds like you're saying to justify your suggestions because you don't have the time or skill it takes to do it properly...?



> It sounds like you come from a natural horsemanship way of training? I understand where you are coming from and from your earlier post could you explain how you "earn a horse's trust"? Have you ever worked with a dominant horse?


Without another essay... Yes, you could say I'm a 'NH' type, for what it's worth. That lable has come to mean everything & nothing these days, IMO. But to me, it's more about mindset and effectiveness. Firstly my mindset is that I believe it's important to treat everyone with respect & consideration, be it horse, human, ...husband:lol:. I don't believe I have the right to be a bully to anyone, just because I want something they may not want to give/do. As for effectiveness, I have studies equine behaviour and ethology, and have studied & practiced behavioural psychology. These things are at the basis of my approach and methods. I find behavioural theory to be very effective. There are many ways to skin a cat, so to speak. Just because I don't think it's right(or often effective or safe) to try to bully a horse into stuff doesn't mean I accept bullying from them. Also doesn't mean you can't get them to change their tune for you & end up *wanting* to please you, despite themselves.

Earning trust is one thing - it first & foremost entails not forcing the horse into stuff. Earning respect comes out of that. FWIW, have been training & retraining horses for a long time & have worked with a number of horses labled 'rogue', 'vicious', 'untrainable', 'nasty', etc, etc. I have found most of these horses are actually that way due to fear & confusion, but there have been a fair few who were not at all afraid, just what you call 'alpha' attitudes. How about you? How many 'aggressive' horses have you worked with?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

SPhorsemanship said:


> I agree 100% but what do you mean by immediate consequences?


It is the basis of (effective)training of any animal, that a behaviour is associated directly(at the time of, immediately) with whatever consequence is appropriate. In some instances that might necessarily be punishment, (either positive or negative) but mostly reinforcement is more appropriate & effective & understood - again both positive & negative. Animals require this immediate feedback for every specific behaviour because they largely aren't able to rationalise or understand abstract ideas. They live in the moment. Different species do vary in their ability to associate consequences that happen after the event. Dogs for eg. can generally associate a consequence within 4 seconds of the behaviour. Horses need more timely reinforcement, and it must be done, at worst, within 2 seconds of the behaviour. It is always better if the reinforcement or punishment can happen *at the time of* the behaviour tho.

For those who aren't familiar with these behavioural terms....

Positive reinforcement(+R) = Adding something desirable in order to strengthen a behaviour. Ie. reward.

Negative reinforcement(-R) = Removing something undesirable in order to strengthen a behaviour. Ie. removal of pressure.

Positive punishment (+P) = Adding something undesirable in order to weaken a behaviour. Ie. allowing the horse to run into something sharp/ touch electric fence, etc.

Negative punishment(-P) = Removing something desirable in order to weaken a behaviour. Ie. Removing reward, meal, etc, when the horse is being 'rude'.


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

I think you put it in a very good way, which is being *very clear. *It is important for the horse to see what is right and wrong and in this case, I think it needed to be harsh.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

SPhorsemanship said:


> It is important for the horse to see what is right and wrong and in this case, I think it needed to be harsh.


Another point about focussing on harshness & 'backhanded compliments'(-R:lol is that it is NOT teaching the horse what's 'Right', just what's 'Wrong'. It also seems to me to be a lot more effective to focus on teaching the Right behaviour first & foremost.


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

I see what you mean, but you can only be able to do that if the horse gives you mind to listen to you and not just dominate and bite you. 

The harshness I have been talking about shouldn't be forever, if it is, then you are doing it wrong. It is to establish dominance from the beginning so the horse can clearly see it. I really like R+ and it gives the horse a much better mindset to work with as well as a lot more trust, but you also have to be able to trust your horse too and that means you being the dominant one with a horse-human relationship. This horse has never been shown that a human should be dominant so he will at first need a clear definition of who's more alpha than who. It is not the horse's fault, he's only doing what he knows.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

SPhorsemanship said:


> I see what you mean, but you can only be able to do that if the horse gives you mind to listen to you and not just dominate and bite you.


I don't think you do see what I mean, because believe me, they learn to 'listen' quick smart when you make it worth their while! :wink: To get a better explaination of the principles in question, "Don't Shoot The Dog" by Karen Pryor is a great little book that explains behavioural principle & gives heaps of great examples in easy, fun to read lay terms. Also if you look up 'Clicker Training' there is a lot to read on the specifics of how to teach effectively without using punishment & intimidation. There are also some good examples on specifically teaching 'respectful' behaviour to 'dominating' horses.

[/quote]but you also have to be able to trust your horse too and that means you being the dominant one with a horse-human relationship. This horse has never been shown that a human should be dominant so he will at first need a clear definition of who's more alpha than who. [/QUOTE]

I know what you mean(grew up being taught that attitude with animals), I just disagree with you.:wink: 

I think it's your mindset about 'domination' and having to 'be alpha' and the meaning of 'respect' that's so different to my philosophy & therefore not allowing you to get how it's possible to go about it all differently. I believe it's important to establish *leadership* but that is not the same as 'dominance' & 'being alpha' IMO - I do not aspire to dominating & 'being alpha' in the way that you understand it. ....Possibly clear as mud:lol: but I think Mark Rashid explains the concept well, in what he calls 'Passive Leadership' and Carolyn Resnick is another that comes to mind who I've heard explain it well.


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

I have been to quite a few stables. I have learned from different trainers and where I live, sport takes over and in sport, there is this mindset. I aspire to learn from more trainers, out of sport. I don't like the way horses are used as riding machines. This is what I know and what has worked for me so this is what I am telling the OP to try to help them.

I would truly like to hear more of your method. I want to work with horses in a much different way but it will take much time and learning. I really don't like to force horses to do something because the question is, *who gives us the right to force them to do something? *Right now I have been working on the philosophy of Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling. Please tell me any other good horse trainers.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I have only skimmed over the posts-sorry, but just too long. Both the OP and the person with the other mare that challenges her when she goes to feed-BOTH need to learn respect in a hurry, or someone will get hurt. Guaranteed. I too tend to "baby" my horses a bit, but sorry-they have to have respect. This means they don't bite, turn their butt toward you or challenge you aggressively, no matter which end it is coming at you. I do LOTS of NH, and love it, but when it comes to dangerous behavior, I live by the 3 second rule. If my horse (or one I am handling at the time) threatens me they will know right then and there that it is NOT acceptable. With biting-they run into my elbow a lot, kicking-depends upon where I am-on the line-they get an immediate spank and sharp "NO". If I have my head down doing feet-I punch them in the belly. Again-nothing can compare to what another horse would do, so don't bother thinking I am cruel. I actually had one challenge me in the field last week-unusual for him. I was feeding, and he got aggressive. I left the field, and came back with his haleter and lead rope and tried to feed again. He came at he, ears pinned, teeth barred-and I swung that lead in a circular motion to keep him away, looked like I was gonna kill him, and went toward him (swinging the rope) full speed. I have to say, his reaction was priceless. He took one look at me and almost fell over himself backing up the hill away from me. Now I will say, that our horses are all trained with NH, and they know that the swinging rope( cotton, Parelli/Anderson type) WILL hit them if they do not move. Let me tell you-he staightened up in a hurry. 
None of this "now stand there a minute while I figure out why you are doing this"......and wait for you to attack me.....crap. I like NH as well as anyone, but sometimes you have to take over and be the leader or they will. Plain and simple. Sorry, but I am a little tired of overanalyzing everything. I try to understand them as much as anyone else, but do not ever allow an animal who weighs 10X what I do to think they are the leader. Sorry-not going to happen.
Go ahead......go off on me-and OP-I am in the area, so let me know if you want the name of a trainer-I may know one who may be able to come help you. He is a good old fashioned cowboy type, but he is by no means rough. More an nh type. He will have your horse's respect in about 5 minutes, and have him lunging in about the same. embarrassing sometimes..


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