# Confused Working Student, rant?



## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

This may be a little long, bear with me. 

I have been a working student at the current barn I am at for almost a year now. I love the people there, and they're really good at what they do. Many of the horses bred there have FEI potential, and are super nice. All the horses are taken care of super well, etc. But I feel like I am not getting a whole lot out of it. I usually go in 8-12, 12-6, or 8-6. Lately, I have cut down to mainly 8-12 days. I am not one to whine, I will always do as they ask or me no matter how much I don't want to do something etc. But I feel like they don't have the time or the means to help me as a rider. In the time I have been there (almost a year) I have ridden no more then 30 times, tops. I realize that I won't always be able to ride as a working student. But more often then not, I really am working for nothing. Last summer my horse got to go up for a week, and a day but that is about all outside of the occassional ride. When I do ride, I don't usually get a lesson. I just walk and trot around, because they are also riding and focusing on their horse etc. So I don't advance a whole lot because of that. And when I do get a lesson, I can't ride right because that saddle does not fit me at all. Now, there is only one horse there that I can ride, and his saddle is a very bad fit for me. I am really just getting burnt out at this point, this isn't the first barn I have been at. It has the nicest quality horses, tack, facilities, etc. But I just feel like they don't have the time or horses to help me advance.. I am torn on what to do. Again, I love the people and place. But I feel like I am working for nothing.. At this point, I am hurt I got in a four wheeler accident Saturday so I have been off of work, so it has given me time to think about it. Any advice is appreciated.


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## Cimarron (Oct 8, 2014)

It is difficult to find a good working student situation. I have been a working student since July of last year at a small dressage barn. I ride several times a week. The lessons started out to be your standard private lesson with a lunge lesson to warm up. Once I start really grasping dressage and my trainer/BO knew I could ride, she began having me ride when she was also riding or working a horse. At first I enjoyed the independence, but now not so much. So I understand your getting in a situation where you aren't really happy. 

Every barn would like extra help. My barn only has 6 horses, yet my trainer has become almost dependent on me to come several times a week after school and do work. I guess I'm saying that if there is another barn that you think would be a better experience, switch. I would, at first, tell the barn manager (or who ever you kinda report to) that you have an issue. If they have several other working students, they might not care about meeting your wishes. But if you are the only working student and they have become dependent on you, they would want to keep you and therefore change.

I would suggest maybe setting up an agreement. Such as "for working x amount of hours, I get one lesson". This is not what I do. I ride my lesson horse whenever he is available, which is quite often. I know if I was in your situation, that is what I would ask for. I do know that by having people work for free, the BO saves money in the form of time because they can spend their time teaching lessons or getting more clients instead of doing the manual work. Therefore, it shouldn't be difficult to set something up as I mentioned previously because you are giving them a valuable service for free. 

I hope my rambles made sense. I hope things work out for you, but if you feel like you are working in vain, I would suggest switching. Because you haven't said anything about this before to the BO (I'm assuming), they might think you are fine with this arrangement and do not realize that you are wishing for more riding time. Good communication is essential to the horse world. I know I have gotten more ride time/ groundwork/ training experience by asking questions and being interested in what is happening.


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

I think that upon making any sort of agreement, there needs to be a clear understanding of what will be exchanged and how. This should have been clarified before you ever started working for them. Something along the lines of: "If I work 'x' hours per week, then I will have 'y' lessons per month". Go even further by specifying exactly what day and time those lessons will take place. It sounds like you've been reliable about showing up on the days/times that you work -- they should be able to do the same for you and be reliable about giving you instruction. You need to talk to whoever is in charge of overseeing and "teaching" you as a working student and let them know that you need a more concrete understanding of what you will gain by working for them.

If they won't work with you to develop a more concrete agreement, you should ask that they either pay you an hourly rate or move on along. Also consider the number of hours that you work vs the actual cost of a lesson if you were to pay for it. If a lesson costs $50 and you work something like 5-6 hours for one lesson, then that's about $8-$10 dollars per hour (decent, but nothing incredible). If you work 8-10 hours for the same lesson, then you are essentially being paid below the federal minimum wage for your time... and at least in my book, that's really not acceptable.

Have you let them know that the saddle used on the horse that you have ridden doesn't work well for you? Let them know -- maybe they have a different saddle that would still be suitable for the horse.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

It is difficult to find a good working student situation. I have been a working student since July of last year at a small dressage barn. I ride several times a week. The lessons started out to be your standard private lesson with a lunge lesson to warm up. Once I start really grasping dressage and my trainer/BO knew I could ride, she began having me ride when she was also riding or working a horse. At first I enjoyed the independence, but now not so much. So I understand your getting in a situation where you aren't really happy. 

*Exactly! I can't learn a whole lot if nobody is giving me much input. Or having me ride more then once a month..*

Every barn would like extra help. My barn only has 6 horses, yet my trainer has become almost dependent on me to come several times a week after school and do work. I guess I'm saying that if there is another barn that you think would be a better experience, switch. I would, at first, tell the barn manager (or who ever you kinda report to) that you have an issue. If they have several other working students, they might not care about meeting your wishes. But if you are the only working student and they have become dependent on you, they would want to keep you and therefore change.

*It is the BO and trainer that run it. There is however a very inexperienced kid coming out one day a week. But as far as I know, I think she gets to ride every time?.. I could be wrong. But I think so. And she gets lunge lessons. Because she has no idea what she is doing. but still. I have never got that kinda attention. She hasn't rode much at all in her life so she is very very new to everything including horses in general. I feel like they may just tell me to find somewhere else if I am unhappy honestly. It is a big barn, 15 stalls need cleaned, horses need turned in and out etc. It is a lot of work, and I wouldn't mind at all if I either got lessons, board, or payed. Basically just got something back. I have mastered stall cleaning and all that down to a science. But when I first came I told them I wanted to exchange work for riding. I just feel like now I am giving free labor.*

I would suggest maybe setting up an agreement. Such as "for working x amount of hours, I get one lesson". This is not what I do. I ride my lesson horse whenever he is available, which is quite often. I know if I was in your situation, that is what I would ask for. I do know that by having people work for free, the BO saves money in the form of time because they can spend their time teaching lessons or getting more clients instead of doing the manual work. Therefore, it shouldn't be difficult to set something up as I mentioned previously because you are giving them a valuable service for free. 

I hope my rambles made sense. I hope things work out for you, but if you feel like you are working in vain, I would suggest switching. Because you haven't said anything about this before to the BO (I'm assuming), they might think you are fine with this arrangement and do not realize that you are wishing for more riding time. Good communication is essential to the horse world. I know I have gotten more ride time/ groundwork/ training experience by asking questions and being interested in what is happening.

*They always say how hard of a worker I am etc. And I do display a lot of interest in things and ask questions. I just feel like, I am working hard for nothing..*

Replies in bold


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

While I am not a working student and never have been, I have worked with busy and important people for most of my working life. One thing I have learned is that you HAVE to be proactive and not shy about catching their attention when you need something or want more responsibility. If you see an opportunity, don’t wait for somebody to hand it to you- often, people in these environments have so much on their minds that it’s easy for them to forget what’s going on when things get busy. Cimarron is absolutely correct – if you don’t speak up, people usually assume you are OK with the current arrangement. Be the first to say “I’ll do it!” even if you’re not 100% sure you can do it, as long as you know you can ask for help. You’re a student so you’re supposed to be learning. 

If you haven’t talked to the barn owner or trainer you are working under about this, now is the time. A truly busy, top-shelf barn is never going to have time to move you forward- YOU have to move YOU forward. Initiative counts for a lot, no matter where you go. 

Make a list of what you want to do, be it ride more, learn more about certain subjects, etc. Try to think of some solutions or ways you could accomplish what you want, and then take this list to talk to the barn owner/trainer. It shows you’re forward-thinking and capable of making a plan, and that you’re willing to put in the work necessary. As well, you might have some solutions the barn owner didn’t think of. Also, you might talk to other people who work on or around the farm and see if they’d be willing to help – just because they’re not prominent doesn’t mean they don’t have important skills they can pass on. Try to watch people who know what they’re doing and see if they will teach you, or just ask questions related to their technique.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Eolith said:


> I think that upon making any sort of agreement, there needs to be a clear understanding of what will be exchanged and how. This should have been clarified before you ever started working for them. Something along the lines of: "If I work 'x' hours per week, then I will have 'y' lessons per month". Go even further by specifying exactly what day and time those lessons will take place. It sounds like you've been reliable about showing up on the days/times that you work -- they should be able to do the same for you and be reliable about giving you instruction. You need to talk to whoever is in charge of overseeing and "teaching" you as a working student and let them know that you need a more concrete understanding of what you will gain by working for them.
> 
> *I guess I thought when I first spoke to them before starting there that it was understood. I let them know I wanted to get lessons, and was willing to work for them in exchange for my lesson. And at first I got to ride more, but now I don't get to ride much at all. And I am not doing a 11 hour day for free.. I have been on call to them 24/7. They have asked me to cover when they had to do something and I have almost always dropped what I Was doing and went and did everything that needed to be done. *
> 
> ...


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Mulefeather said:


> While I am not a working student and never have been, I have worked with busy and important people for most of my working life. One thing I have learned is that you HAVE to be proactive and not shy about catching their attention when you need something or want more responsibility. If you see an opportunity, don’t wait for somebody to hand it to you- often, people in these environments have so much on their minds that it’s easy for them to forget what’s going on when things get busy. Cimarron is absolutely correct – if you don’t speak up, people usually assume you are OK with the current arrangement. Be the first to say “I’ll do it!” even if you’re not 100% sure you can do it, as long as you know you can ask for help. You’re a student so you’re supposed to be learning.
> 
> *I'm always on call to them. I always do what needs done if I see something. I always do what is asked. I have never said no, or even groaned about something. I really work my tail off for them. I do need to say something, but I am afraid they'll just tell me I can leave then.*
> 
> ...


Replies in bold


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

Mulefeather said:


> If you haven’t talked to the barn owner or trainer you are working under about this, now is the time. A truly busy, top-shelf barn is never going to have time to move you forward- YOU have to move YOU forward. Initiative counts for a lot, no matter where you go.


I agree with this absolutely. Larissa, you need to be your own advocate. It is very important that you talk to the people in charge about your concerns.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Eolith said:


> I agree with this absolutely. Larissa, you need to be your own advocate. It is very importable that you talk to the people in charge about your concerns.


I can, but I am almost sure they'll tell me to leave then. I mean the trainer did send me a link along with a couple other working students she used to have that literly said we are replaceable, and that its not when we ride, but IF. And that its not when we get payed, its IF. Which confused me, because the agreement was working for lessons..


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

Larissa said:


> I can, but I am almost sure they'll tell me to leave then. I mean the trainer did send me a link along with a couple other working students she used to have that literly said we are replaceable, and that its not when we ride, but IF. And that its not when we get payed, its IF. Which confused me, because the agreement was working for lessons..


If that's the agreement, then I would absolutely be cutting my losses and leaving because that is being taken advantage of.

Maybe the trainer will think better of her "working students are easily replaceable" attitude when she finds herself training new students their duties all of the time or has to deal with the ones who don't show up when they're supposed to and/or fail to complete their tasks adequately. An honest, knowledgeable, competent, devoted worker is truly a rarity and the trainer would do better to appreciate them if she finds one.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Larissa said:


> I can, but I am almost sure they'll tell me to leave then. I mean the trainer did send me a link along with a couple other working students she used to have that literly said we are replaceable, and that its not when we ride, but IF. And that its not when we get payed, its IF. Which confused me, because the agreement was working for lessons..


Tell yourself to leave. It seems that they don't value the help so it's time to value yourself.
Give them a weeks notice (if you want to). Tell them the truth if they ask: You're working for free & not learning anything new. You need to be earning or learning. 
If they give you a hard time cancel the 1 week notice.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

Larissa said:


> I can, but I am almost sure they'll tell me to leave then.


I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. It's a small operation, you are doing a ton of work, they seem happy with your work, yet you are "almost sure" if you ask for something in return they will tell you to leave.

That doesn't add up to me.

Also, I don't understand what you are saying about the girl who comes out one day a week. You seem to have made the assumption that she is getting free lessons, or more lessons for less work than you. But you don't know.

One of the most essential skills in life is to learn to ask clearly and cheerfully for what you want. It might seem to you that your barn owner should be able to see that you aren't getting what you want (or your husband, mother, friend, employer, woman who cuts your hair, etc.), but in the real world you have to deal with people like me who just aren't very perceptive.

Maybe if you leave and go to another place, it will be better. But if the real issue is you have difficulty asking for what you want, you will have problems there too. I would not quit without a positive conversation about how reality differs from your expectations.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

You need to stand up for yourself. 

I'm not quite sure of your situation, like don't you have to work outside of this to cover your costs? Or go to school?

What is your situation? Do you work there one day a week or everyday? Do they provide you with accommodation or something?

It sounds like at this stage if you spent the equivalent time at work (paid employment) you would be able to afford a lesson more regularly, maybe look at doing that?


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Saskia said:


> It sounds like at this stage if you spent the equivalent time at work (paid employment) you would be able to afford a lesson more regularly, maybe look at doing that?


 That is what I was thinking. 

Granted, I've only witnessed a few dozen "working student" situations in my 30+ years in the horse business. But I have *never* seen a "student" treated fairly. 

They have never been anything more than free labor for the barn owners and/or trainers. Unconscionable. :-x

Those taking advantage of the ones who so willingly offer labor, hoping for a chance to ride and learn, are a black eye on the horse industry.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Saskia said:


> You need to stand up for yourself.
> 
> I'm not quite sure of your situation, like don't you have to work outside of this to cover your costs? Or go to school?
> 
> ...


Replies in bold


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## poundinghooves (Aug 5, 2010)

Larissa, if I were you, I would quit. And I don't mean next week, I mean yesterday! With as many hours as you are putting in at this barn (for almost no compensation of any kind) you could just pick up a few more hours at your paying job. It wouldn't take many more hours at all to pay for a lesson a week.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I don't mean for this to come across as rude or insensitive to your issue--but in pricier, show driven barns (it sounds like that's what you're describing? Correct me if I'm wrong!) that's sort of the name of the game. Working students are typically there to get experience, and to get their name into that discipline of the horse world. Riding a treat, and it's not always guaranteed that you'll be riding the nicest horse, under any supervision, or even in tack that fits you.

If you're unhappy, I'd leave.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Zexious said:


> I don't mean for this to come across as rude or insensitive to your issue--but in pricier, show driven barns (it sounds like that's what you're describing? Correct me if I'm wrong!) that's sort of the name of the game. Working students are typically there to get experience, and to get their name into that discipline of the horse world. Riding a treat, and it's not always guaranteed that you'll be riding the nicest horse, under any supervision, or even in tack that fits you.
> 
> If you're unhappy, I'd leave.


It is, top quality horses, mainly Irish Sport Horses, bred to a very high standard, and an active show barn. But the agreement was working for lessons. I didn't ask just to work and such. I asked "Would you be interested in me doing some work in exchange for lessons?" Before I started going. The thing is, I don't get experience when I just clean, turn out, turn in, etc. I came here to work for lessons. I did mention that this morning to the trainer. So I will see if it changes. No offense was taken, no worries. I just am not willing to be a slave for nothing, when I before going there asked for exactly what I was wanting, and it was agreed to. But now that I brought it up, I will see if things change.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I was a working student for a major eventing barn for YEARS. This trainer would have riding tests, when he had a WS opening and many people would apply. It was a real honor to be selected. The reason why his positions were hard fought was that he had you in the saddle ALL day almost every day.

Yes, you mucked and cleaned, but you rode at least three horses minimum daily, most with his instruction. You rode and trained his horses, which were top notch.

I remember when Major Lynch from Potomac Horse Center (BOTH huge deals at that time) came and met with all of his working students. He wanted to recruit us to come work with him. He was a big name and a door opener, but our coach had no problems with him talking with us.

Our first question was how many hours would we be in the saddle daily. He said 1-2. We all gracefully decline to go with him, as our coach figured. This coach sent a number of us to the highest levels possible in the sport.

So, you need to go coach shopping for your next working student position. They are not all equal, at ALL.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

Larissa said:


> I came here to work for lessons. I did mention that this morning to the trainer.


Good for you! Now if things don't change you can walk away knowing you gave it every chance.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

So is this the same barn from which you posted the critique pics on the huge saddle and little appy? 

Note also: I am a working student myself. I get paid some and the rest is in 'perks' ie. rides to shows, lessons etc. It is a very nice gig. I ride most of the boarders and have a few horses on the side- including one of those lovely irish sport horses you mentioned. The thing I think is key to my situation is that my barn is very small. I am the only paid employee and it's down to about six horses now. I show but it's not a focus for my BO and instructor rather good horses and training is- she'll give dressage lessons to western riders and barrel racers aside from english riders. Also our horses are not high quality and are usually basket cases that couldn't be any more ruined. So the horses need to be ridden frequently and well to fix them- oddly this instead of good schoolmasters has been what has pushed me to be a better rider. Right now we are looking for my replacement as I go off to college so I won't say I'm irreplaceable but I will say I play/played an important enough role to render the search difficult. If what you want is to ride and ride well I suggest finding a smaller barn to ride at that is more focused on teaching than turning out athletes. If I were you I would tag along to shows and talk to some of the trainers and riders there and see where they ride and board then maybe start thinking about some changes.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

Since hearing more about your situation I do think they are taking advantage of you a bit. 

You're getting pretty much nothing out of this situation. I would prepare to go if I were you, and then tell them how you feel. If they aren't willing to renegotiate the situation leave. 

Without spending all those hours there you might be able to get more paid work and pay for lessons, or look around for another arrangement.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I have had working students many times and as part of the agreement, if they were reasonably experienced they received a small wage, they had an hours lesson a day, occasional this was missed usually because of weather, shows or some other reason. 
They all got homework three times a week and when they were to a standard, allowed to compete, work young horses under tuition and Fox Hunt. 

Seems to me that you are getting the working part of the deal but cannot be called a pupil of you are not getting tuition,

Talk to whoever is responsible for your training and stand up for yourself otherwise you are just slave labour.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Some of the things that I am capable of doing, and do:
Lunging, cleaning stalls, filling hay nets, putting hay outside, sweeping, helping fix fences, helping put round pens up, watering, tacking up for others, wrapping (polos or standing wraps,) I am confident handling most horses, I can handle the stallion, bathing, grooming, turning in and out, warming up, cooling out, holding horses for the farrier, and other things. I can ride, but I need some instruction. I rode western all my life and I just switched to english last summer, Since then I have not rode western at all. I have gotten to the point that I am usually good at keeping a nice soft following contact, but I just need instruction on my riding so I can get better. I'm not very interested in jumping. But I have a lot of interest in dressage. So I don't know where my level or work and experience is and what I should expect out of it.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Whatever your English riding experience is it is not going to improve without the opportunity to ride and be given lessons,


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

Eolith said:


> I think that upon making any sort of agreement, there needs to be a clear understanding of what will be exchanged and how. This should have been clarified before you ever started working for them. Something along the lines of: "If I work 'x' hours per week, then I will have 'y' lessons per month". Go even further by specifying exactly what day and time those lessons will take place. It sounds like you've been reliable about showing up on the days/times that you work -- they should be able to do the same for you and be reliable about giving you instruction. You need to talk to whoever is in charge of overseeing and "teaching" you as a working student and let them know that you need a more concrete understanding of what you will gain by working for them.
> 
> If they won't work with you to develop a more concrete agreement, you should ask that they either pay you an hourly rate or move on along. Also consider the number of hours that you work vs the actual cost of a lesson if you were to pay for it. If a lesson costs $50 and you work something like 5-6 hours for one lesson, then that's about $8-$10 dollars per hour (decent, but nothing incredible). If you work 8-10 hours for the same lesson, then you are essentially being paid below the federal minimum wage for your time... and at least in my book, that's really not acceptable.
> 
> Have you let them know that the saddle used on the horse that you have ridden doesn't work well for you? Let them know -- maybe they have a different saddle that would still be suitable for the horse.


I agree with Eolith, You are saving the BO X amount of dollars that they would have to pay someone else. You should receive riding instruction worth approximately the same amount. I think the BO is very comfortable with the situation as it is ( free labor, who wouldn't be ) but since you are not, I would have a talk with him/her before you are ready to come back to work. Explain that improving your riding skills is a priority that you have now and you would like to know if they can provide the instruction you need or if they could pay you so you could take lessons elsewhere. It IS time for you to move on to a better situation either at your present barn or somewhere else. Best wishes.


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## summerluv716 (Feb 26, 2015)

Have you asked them why you don't get to ride often or ask for more opportunities? If you don't, then they can't know how you're feeling. If you are anything like me, this is really difficult to do. It is totally worth it though, trust me. You will learn one of two things: either that this place is a waste of your time and try to find something different or you will get to ride more often.


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## flattscruggs (May 30, 2015)

This is quite common where I live. Coaches, instructors, and trainers here will tell people yes they will trade work for rides but never give the rides for the work. No ask no get.


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## Audsta (May 25, 2015)

I've worked at a few horse barns for lessons, and IT'S ALWAYS THE SAME...No lessons for my hard work. It just seems like I've always been taken advantage of. I also have a conspiracy that because I was a western rider, and I worked at morgan horse barns and hunter/jumper barns, that they didn't think I was a _good enough _rider for their horses because I rode western. I don't know if any of you western riders out there have felt this way, but that's how I've always seen it.
*NOTE: I'm not saying ALL english riders think this way, but I definitely believe this happens often.*


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

My sister was a working pupil at a riding school and the German man who was in charge worked her and the other girl hard. They had homework at least twice a week which he would mark amd go through with them, they had a lesson every day, sometimes a lunge lesson, only twenty minutes, often the pair of them together. 
This man left and the new manager was just the opposite. He was always late to work, they never got lessons and it was just slave labour. They both walked out after a major bust up.

It is not just because someone rides a different way it is because some will take advantage of the keenness of a working pupil to want to learn.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

> This is quite common where I live. Coaches, instructors, and trainers here will tell people yes they will trade work for rides but never give the rides for the work. No ask no get.


Mannnn....I guess I got lucky! My instructor/ employer is awesome, lessons, trailorings, recommendations to other folks to ride their horses too....oh and not to mention bailing me out with a set she had thirty years ago when I didn't realize that 'show clothes' were any different from 'schooling clothes' :shock:


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