# Is it illegal??



## Arabianhorselover19 (Sep 19, 2012)

Is it illegal for a seller to not mention a very serious helth condition that could have taken over a whole herd? And coated me thousands of dollars for treatment. I recently traded my gelding for a mare with sarcoids and was wondering if it is illegal of her to sell me the horse with out informing me about it? I have her stalled and away from my other horses as it is contagous, she has given me the name and number of the vet who looked at her, it is just unbelievable what people will do to get a good horse.


----------



## ShannonSevenfold (Oct 11, 2008)

Unfortunately, no. Horses are sold as-is and buyer beware. ALWAYS get a pre-purchase exam done by YOUR vet, not the seller's.


----------



## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Where are you located? I believe some countries (Netherlands comes to mind) do have laws set up to protect the buyer in such situations.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Arabianhorselover19 said:


> Is it illegal for a seller to not mention a very serious health condition that could have taken over a whole herd?


Sarcoids are not contagious. They're tumors caused by a virus, and the majority of them are benign. 

I have no idea why you believe sarcoids are contagious and will 'take over a whole herd'. You keeping her quarantined is doing nothing but making the horse miserable.

If your horse's life is endangered by them, you should have been able to see them all over her prior to the trade. Did you agree to the trade without actually laying eyes on the animal? If so, why?



Arabianhorselover19 said:


> I recently traded my gelding for a mare with sarcoids and was wondering if it is illegal of her to sell me the horse with out informing me about it?


No, it's not illegal for the previous owner to trade you a horse without telling you the animal has sarcoids. It would have been nice for her to let you know so you could have made a better informed decision, but it's not illegal.


----------



## Arabianhorselover19 (Sep 19, 2012)

Sarcoids is contagious as I have had a vet look at her and I have read up and researched a lot in it, by the look of things if she doesn't take her back my parents will put her down, that way it does not spread and it will not get worse putting her in a lot of pain, her contained is not making her miserable she is fed watered and lunged everyday, she is very well looked after but she is a money pit and I don't need that around, thanks for the advice but if the lady does not pick up the horse by Monday next week she will be humanly euthanized.


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Sarcoids are not contagious and will not 'take over the whole herd'.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

No, sarcoids are NOT contagious. I don't know where you got your information or what kind of 'research' you claim to have done, but it's wrong.

If the horse has sarcoids so badly that she needs to be euthed, then they should have been visible to you. If you took her anyway, why is that anyone's fault except your own?


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Perhaps you misunderstood your vet. The horse can develop more but it will not spread to OTHER horses.

Excellent info on sarcoid treatment.

Feature Case - Sarcoids - University of Minnesota Equine Clinical Services


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Arabianhorselover19 said:


> Sarcoids is contagious as I have had a vet look at her and I have read up and researched a lot in it, by the look of things if she doesn't take her back my parents will put her down, that way it does not spread and it will not get worse putting her in a lot of pain, her contained is not making her miserable she is fed watered and lunged everyday, she is very well looked after but she is a money pit and I don't need that around, thanks for the advice but if the lady does not pick up the horse by Monday next week she will be humanly euthanized.


In reading this and your other thread I feel bad for the other lady involved in this trade and hope she has a good lawyer. You're planning on putting this horse down and still expect to get your other horse back, even going so far as (possibly illegally) transferring papers back into your name? Unbelievable. No sympathy from me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ShannonSevenfold (Oct 11, 2008)

OP - I, too, feel for the other lady in this trade. Reminds me of the situation with my last horse. I traded a lady my VERY green broke gelding even up for her bombproof mare with the understanding that she was very experienced in training and could finish his training. A week after, she said he was running through fencing, bucking and was DANGEROUS to everything around him and had him put down, then began demanding her horse back. She even went so far as to tell me she was coming to get her with the sheriff (lies, btw). She threatened to sue. I spoke to a lawyer and he basically said she was crazy and that everything she was saying was a lie, that she had no ground to stand on to take my mare. Once the horse leaves your possession, you are straight up SOL. And to expect your horse back after you euth hers is just idiotic.

Sarcoids are NOT contageous. For the love of god, do not put that horse down. Obviously they are not bad enough to endanger her health or you would have seen them straight away. Just sell her or treat her.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm sorry but your vet is wrong and you need to get a better trained one. They are not contagious, they are believed to be viral by origin but have cancerous implications Depending on how bad they are they can be removed in various ways. I have had horse with sarcoids kept with other horses and they have never been 'passed on' 
Are you sure this horse doesn't have warts - they can be transmitted to other horses but are not serious and can be removed easily
If the sarcoids are life threatening and the horse was sold 'sound' then you do have a case against the seller if they are a dealer. It should come under the trades descriptions laws


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Arabianhorselover19 said:


> Sarcoids is contagious as I have had a vet look at her and I have read up and researched a lot in it, by the look of things if she doesn't take her back my parents will put her down, that way it does not spread and it will not get worse putting her in a lot of pain, her contained is not making her miserable she is fed watered and lunged everyday, she is very well looked after but she is a money pit and I don't need that around, thanks for the advice but if the lady does not pick up the horse by Monday next week she will be humanly euthanized.


Sarkoids are NOT contagious, period. I had a horse with them and he lived for 22 YEARS with a herd and NONE of the other horses got sarkoids.
Having her PTS just because you messed up with the trade is downright cruel, IMO
Figure things out with the lady, or let lawyers do what they do best, but don't let the horse pay for your mistake, please


----------



## wetrain17 (May 25, 2011)

Why not sell the horse? There are plenty of people who wont turn a horse away because of some sarcoids.

If that is not an option, then I'd hate to say it, but I think the horse would be better off dead then in the care of someone who will just end up resenting the horse for a mistake they made.


----------



## AbsitVita (Aug 28, 2012)

http://www.ed.ac.uk/polopoly_fs/1.33422!/fileManager/sarcoids.pdf

Sarcoids are not contagious, perhaps you're thinking of Strangles which are contagious...two totally different afflictions. As I stated before, which you perhaps fail to see that you have no business owning any horse. Yes, you may feed, water and care for them properly. But you have no logic, no common sense and no horse sense for that matter. The poor horse deserves better than you, stop keeping the poor horse confined in solitude. She needs pasturemates, it's in her nature to be a part of the herd. You claim to have done research on Sarcoids? I just googled it for the first time in a long time and was able to find proper information regarding this condition. Nothing I read remotely suggested that it's contagious.


----------



## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

If the lesion has not been biopsied and sent to a pathology lab, then you have no idea what the mass is. 

It may be a sarcoid. It may be a wart. It may be something else. There have been some things flying around the internet about sarcoids being contagious, but I have been unable to find even one real scientific source that states that they are. 

Sarcoids are not painful. Who would euthanize a horse over a sarcoid?


----------



## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Arabianhorselover19 said:


> Is it illegal for a seller to not mention a very serious helth condition that could have taken over a whole herd? And coated me thousands of dollars for treatment. I recently traded my gelding for a mare with sarcoids and was wondering if it is illegal of her to sell me the horse with out informing me about it? I have her stalled and away from my other horses as it is contagous, she has given me the name and number of the vet who looked at her, it is just unbelievable what people will do to get a good horse.


Did you even have her examined by a licensed veterinarian? Did this veterinarian really suggest euthanasia for a horse that has not had a biopsy done?

If you buy a horse, you are morally responsible to provide basic care to that horse.


----------



## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

My understanding is that the virus that causes sarcoids is contagious but just because a horse comes into contact with the virus that causes it does not mean they will develop the actual sarcoids. So they can be positive for the virus but never have a sarcoid develop in their life. Its a cattle virus and if coming into contact with it automatically meant they developed it then there are some high dollar cow horses out there that should be riddled with sarcoids. This is completely different than say strangles that is extremely contagious and if the horse gets the virus it will get strangles.

There also seems to be a family link that indicates genetics also plays a part in the susceptibility of the virus. 

So could having a horse with sarcoids increase the risk to you other horses? Maybe a little. But there is also a very likely chance that none of you other horses will ever develop them.

As to the legality of the trade and if she was required to provide full disclosure - Your best bet is to talk with a lawyer that is familiar with your local laws. In some areas sellers are required to provide full disclosure on any known issues while in other areas it is a buyer beware situation. On a forum like this where everyone is spread out in different locations - you are probably not going to get the best advice that pertains to you.

No matter what - take this as a hard lesson learned and always at least see you potential purchase in person.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There are 6 different types of sarcoid and all behave in different ways There is no evidence to support the belief that they will spread from one horse to another though they will spread on the individual horse and if they do get bad they will cause extreme pain and discomfort - you can Google for images of some severe cases
Biopsies are avoided as opening up the sarcoid can suddenly accelerate its growth
I bred 4 foals from a mare that I saved from slaughter (she was well bred but considered of no value other than for meat because of the sarcoids)
They were succesfully removed and never came back - I had her a long time and then loaned her out to someone. None of her foals showed any signs of sarcoids and we kept them till they were 4 though I do still have contact with her last one which is sarcoid free
The mare was showjumped successfully before having the foals and ended her days as a very reliable hack (trail horse)
Insurance forms in the US consider them to be an unsoundness that you have to declare when you enter a horses details. If you buy a horse with sarcoids they will not cover for treatment of them


----------



## Arabianhorselover19 (Sep 19, 2012)

nikelodeon79 said:


> In reading this and your other thread I feel bad for the other lady involved in this trade and hope she has a good lawyer. You're planning on putting this horse down and still expect to get your other horse back, even going so far as (possibly illegally) transferring papers back into your name? Unbelievable. No sympathy from me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If u knew how to read I said if things don't work out and she doesn't take the horse back she will get put down so she would be keeping the other horse
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Arabianhorselover19 said:


> If u knew how to read I said if things don't work out and she doesn't take the horse back she will get put down so she would be keeping the other horse
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Regardless, I still feel she's in the right and you're in the wrong, and that's interesting because I'm sure you tried to make yourself sound good. You are threatening to kill the horse if she doesn't return yours, then? Real classy.

Did you read anything anyone said re: sarcoids? Or is attempting to insult me just a higher priority than the horse's life?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Plus it's just ONE sarcoid on the mare's neck, nik. Certainly not a whole raft of 'em as the OP originally implied. Which means the horse will be put down simply out of spite, and not because she's in ill health.


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I doubt the situation is real. I'm willing to bet it is (poorly written) fiction. Nobody that selfish would spend money to rid themselves of a horse with a sarcoid when in their mind, they have "lost" $3k already. I'd be more willing to believe the story if the person said they would sell the horse for $1500, at a $2500 loss.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm _hoping_ it's all just a big fib JDI, but I've met some despicable crazy critters disguised as human beings over the years.


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Speed Racer said:


> Plus it's just ONE sarcoid on the mare's neck, nik. Certainly not a whole raft of 'em as the OP originally implied. Which means the horse will be put down simply out of spite, and not because she's in ill health.


Yep, that's what it sounds like to me. :-(
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Arabianhorselover19 said:


> If u knew how to read I said if things don't work out and she doesn't take the horse back she will get put down so she would be keeping the other horse
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Put down why exactly? The sarkoid?
and you call yourself here "ARABIANHORSELOVER"????

Put her up for adoption, you'll save the vet and disposal cost.


----------



## AbsitVita (Aug 28, 2012)

If I had a way, I'd report her to Animal Control and have them yank every horse from her care and push to have her barred from ever owning ANY animal, especially horses. People that ignorant and heartless don't deserve to have ANY connection with ANY of God's creatures. That's my two cents and I will step down from my soapbox now....


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

As far as I can see no one cares about this horse - the buyer is having a knee jerk reaction to something she's been badly advised about and the seller obviously didn't care enough about it to sell it honestly, she just wanted to dump it on some naive person and pocket the cash - after all lots of buyers would do exactly the same thing as this OP and not want the poor thing once they see it has the sarcoid so it would just get dumped in an auction.
If the seller had cared about the horse at all she would have had the sarcoid treated/removed
I have a lovely warmblood mare bought at a really low price because the owner (who's daughter had lost interest) cared enough to be honest about some really slight arthritis she has in her hocks. She was totally upfront with us, allowed the X rays to be seen by our vet prior to the sale as she had declared the condition even though the horse has never been unsound and the problem would only have been picked up if a buyer decided to pay for an X ray. She was willing to take a lower price to know that the horse would go to a good home knowing that she had a problem that see something like this happen to it. For what we want to do with her she is worth the risk


----------



## krisfulc (Jan 10, 2012)

I feel really bad for any horse put in the possession of this person. . .


----------



## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

.

Thread is now closed, I think the OP gets the point

.


----------

