# Would this young fellow be good as a future dressage prospect?



## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

Found a picture where he's sort-of standing on even ground


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

He seems very over at the knee in all of the photos but the one of him at 4 months. May be a concern but it may also mean that he is straightening out.
He looks like he should develope for the most part into a solid, handsome fellow, though.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

At this age it best to look at the parents in order to get an idea of how the foal will develop. What level dressage are you looking to do?


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

I quite like him in the 4 month old photo. Though it looks like he'd make an awesome jumper lol. Any pictures of dam and sire? From the 4 month old picture I would say yes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

I don't like how over at the knee he is at all in a couple of the photos. I don't know a lot about developing horses, though. Some other folks can comment more about whether or not that's something he may outgrow.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I would not be allowing a foal to jump anything half that size as it is quite possible he'll do irrevocable damage before he gets as far as any 'career'.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

He is a foal. No idea how he will turn out. Over at the knee is not going to hurt him in dressage except maybe in the extensions. He will likely grow out of that. 

What won't change are his legs. He is a bit tied in at the knee. I do not like the rounding on the front of his hock. His shoulder is pretty nice in this photo which may mean it becomes steep with the point of shoulder becoming lower with age. I don't know.. and you won't know.. until he is about 18 months to two years old. He looks like a draft cross of some sort. 

Would love to see good photos of the sire and dam. That would tell a lot more.


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## Paradise (Jun 28, 2012)

loosie said:


> I would not be allowing a foal to jump anything half that size as it is quite possible he'll do irrevocable damage before he gets as far as any 'career'.


I agree loosie, that's a little scary
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I was under the impression that many horses are over at the knee when they are born, and it's something they grow out of?

Anyway, I'm with everyone else... What were mom and dad like? Were they Dressage mounts? So much can change about a baby when they are growing x.x


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

We didn't urge him to jump, we were loose-jumping his dam as she was about to get evaluated by judges the upcoming week. He just loved jumping so much it was hard to keep him from following - I mean he could have easily dodged the obstacle. 

I'm not home at the moment, so I can't post pictures. But his dam is an andalusian cross and sire is a latvian sport horse.


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

His dam is good in dressage, did some nice competitions with her in 2012. Yet his sire came from a jumpers bloodline. 

I found some pictures - the first horse is the dam and second the sire.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

He's too young really to tell - he might end up being too stocky for anything other than the lower levels
His legs look to be straightening out from the one age to the next so will probably not be any issue to him at all
I wouldn't let him jump - just because he likes doing it doesn't mean it wont damage him - he doesn't know any better. He might have a better future in jumping than in dressage though!!


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

This foals dam is a right nice horse. The sire, OTOH, is your weak link.This foal is already developing a body like his Father and I expect will take away his father's shoulder as well. Thos front pasterns on the sire.. Mmm Mmm Mmm.. talk about upright.. and the hind leg.. really poor. 

Time will tell, but from the looks of this foal he is going to have a lot more of Daddy going on than Mom (and Mom is a much better horse IMO). 

I know this is all in Estonia and not the US.. but while I would breed the mare in a heartbeat I would geld that stud even faster based on these photos.


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

Thanks for that, I guess I needed to hear the truth.

The stallion is grazing in the clouds above right now, I wouldn't have bred him either but it wasn't my call to make as I'm not the owner. I was hoping the foal would take after his mother, as I am bonkers for that girl, love her soo much.. Yeah. Guess not.

Just for the sake of it - the stallion had an unsuccessful operation, resulting with problems of the front pastern(I'm sorry I lack expertise and vocabulary to explain better). Neither his dam or sire had upright pasterns and none of his offspring have inherited them so far. It would truly be sad if the colt I'm talking about here would be the first. 

Will upright pasterns make his life difficult?


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

I feel ashamed for letting him jump  I'll mention it to the owner so it won't happen again until he is more mature.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

From the more recent picture the foal appears to have appropriate slope to his pasterns, but definitely something to keep an eye on.

Upright pasterns means there is less shock absorption of movement, so instead of nice flexion as a horse moves they hit the ground much harder. It can make them more prone to arthritis and general unsoundness as there is much harder pounding going up the leg, instead of being dissipated through the joint flexing.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

If the sire had contracted tendons that could be what he had surgery for. This can be caused by genetics or just one thing on one horse. Now the over at the knee in the foal takes on more significance because that can be a sign of the same trouble the sire had. It could also be a slight issue that will pass with time. 

Quite honestly I would love to see another foal out of that mare bred to a top Warmblood stallion. I think that would give you a cracker jack baby. With shipped semen and the like you are no longer relegated to having to ship the mare for breeding. Maybe you could lease her and get a foal if that is what you are bent on? Just some thoughts. 

Of course, a mare bred this spring will give you a baby next spring that will be a weanling in the summer... then not really much to work with for another 3 years. Still.... if you are young and with a mare that nice it would be worth the wait. I think.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

The mare is lovely!

I'd just wait it out and see how he matures. He's still so young


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Elana said:


> Thos front pasterns on the sire.. Mmm Mmm Mmm.. talk about upright.. and the hind leg.. really poor.
> 
> 
> > Interested to know what's poor about his hind legs, but I don't believe you can tell from these 2 pics, why he's upright in the pasterns - eg whether it's his skeletal confo or whether it's his hooves or something else 'correctable' and not genetic, making him more upright. And if angles downstairs are changeable, so will shoulder angles & such.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Tryst said:


> Upright pasterns means there is less shock absorption of movement, so instead of nice flexion as a horse moves they hit the ground much harder. It can make them more prone to arthritis and general unsoundness as there is much harder pounding going up the leg, instead of being dissipated through the joint flexing.


Shock absorbing should not happen through the joints. It should happen down in the hoof. If the hooves cannot function properly, if the horse cannot make heel first impacts, it will indeed negatively affect joints above, regardless of upright conformation.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Actually, Loosie, the hooves are part of the equation not the entire equation. A horse with an upright shoulder and short humerus will be a rough ride because the entire skeleton is what takes up the impact of a foot fall along WITH the hoof. 

A poorly trimmed hoof can certainly wreak havoc as we well know! However, if the hoof is trimmed correctly and the bone column above the hoof is unforgiving, then joints take up the abuse. 

In that stallion, the OP indicated he had surgery for/on his front pasterns. It may have been to relax contracted tendons that can have their basis in genetics and which can be helped with a good therapeutic farrier (note I did not say "corrective trimming" because I do not believe in corrective trimming as that can louse up the column of bones above the hoof!). 

The hind leg on the stallion (since you asked) has too high a hock and the stifle is placed too far back making the distance from Point of buttock to stifle too short. I have drawn (rather poorly because I do not have a stylus and drawing with a mouse is.. rough.. ) a better hind leg that allows more angle, places the peak of croup further forward and the hock lower and gives the hind cannon more bone. That hind leg is weak. It does not mean the horse will be lame. It means the horse lacks power. In addition, the hind pasterns are pretty upright. As he stands he is long in the coupling and steep crouped and over straight through the stifle with high hocks and a light cannon.

Going to the front.. this horse has a steepish shoulder and a low point of shoulder (red). What would be better (again.. not exactly what I wanted to draw because of the mouse thing) is the yellow line. This would give the horse a free-er shoulder. The front leg is placed too far under and the horse is tied in at the knee. The angle of those front pasterns is unacceptable. In part due to the feet.. although the heels are not long. The fetlock joints appear enlarged and abnormal.. much like you see in contracted tendons. Add to that this horse is tied in at the knee much like his son.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

loosie said:


> Shock absorbing should not happen through the joints. It should happen down in the hoof. If the hooves cannot function properly, if the horse cannot make heel first impacts, it will indeed negatively affect joints above, regardless of upright conformation.



Everything within the horse has to work as a unit, not independently. So absolutely hooves are the starting place, but energy moves up the body when a hoof hits the ground. Hoof, pastern, canon, knee, forearm, shoulder.... If any one of those is out of whack... The concussion of movement can negatively impact the weak one. Usually the issues are seen as tears in the joints, tendons or ligaments, or later on as arthritis. If the hoof did all of the work to absorb concussion then we wouldn't see injuries higher up the leg. 

The straighter the joint the less range of motion to take up impact and thus the more pounding the movement is. This is why a straighter shoulder feels more jarring than a nice shoulder layback when all other things are equal. In something like a pastern you want it in moderation... While a longer sloping pastern will make for a smoother ride, if it is too long or too sloped it too can be prone to injury, as unlike a shoulder it doesn't have muscle and the rest of the skeletal system to stabilize it and limit it from hyper-extension, which can be just as much of a problem as lack of flexion.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Actually, Tryst, the shoulder in the horse (dog and cat and most mammals except humans) is NOT stabilized by the rest of the skeletal system. The shoulder floats free in a sling of muscles and tendons and ligaments and is not attached to the skeleton directly. Humans have a shoulder attachment to the skeletal system via the collar bone which is absent in most mammals. Without a collar bone, our shoulders would also float in muscles, tendons and ligaments. 

The collar bone is often 'sacrificed' when a person falls from a horse so I am not sure all this attachment is so good!!


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

I am aware of that and didn't word it very well... I didn't say it was connected, only that it was supported. I meant through ligaments, tendon and muscle. I was just trying to say that an overly sloped, weak pastern will be prone to hyper extend, but an angulation shoulder won't be. Anyways, sorry if that wasn't clear.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Anyways, back to the original question. It is nearly impossible to tell from foal pictures how a horse will turn out. When looking at foals for dressage it is VERY indicative of future success to look at the bloodlines. As long as the care is good, the mare and foal have not been over or under fed, all nutrients are supplied and the foal does not injure itself, the bloodlines will usually indicate temperament, talent etc.

So what is the breeding of the foal back 3 gens if possible? What level are you looking to go to?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Don't feel bad about him jumping! 
I have had several foals mostly TBs, that would pop over jumps just because they loved to do so. Never did them any harm.

In Europe thy loose jump the foals over a few fences to see if they have potential, then as yearlings. These horses go on to make top show jumpers.

I go along with the rest, like the mare but not so keen on the stallion. Even as foals you can see how we'll they move.


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

Well, this escalated into something that was very interesting and informative to read. Thanks everyone!  I'll probably read the discussions here at least three more times before I think I've understood, haha.

The stallion was indeed very choppy to ride, on the few occasions that I did. He had trouble moving freely even in the pasture, trot especially. I'm guessing because his pasterns couldn't absorb the impact well(?), his front legs were often swollen and needed tending. For that, I am happy he is in the skies now, free from it all..though he was a lovely horse, the sweetest stallion. He followed me around everywhere and just made me laugh. I guess I was too naiive, didn't think that something other than his pasters were a problem before.. but it's good to know, now I can be more watchful of these traits in other horses.



Elana, I have thought about breeding the mare to some upper-class stallion. Just maybe not at the moment, I don't think I'm financially prepared for that. But, I'm very fond of the idea, haha - I have even searched for hours, trying to find a possible stud from some European country so I could ship frozen semen to Estonia.. but so far, few results that I actually like. Yet I'll keep thinking and looking 

To anebel, the mare Starry isn't that special when it comes to bloodlines. The only 'shiny' part of her pedigree is the fact that she is half andalusian - but neither her sire or siresire have any major accomplishments. And don't get me started on her dam - she was a 'something' cross aswell. No competitions. 
Then there comes the latvian stallion I listed here, his sire was Gvidons, siresire Guido(KWPN), siresiresire Voltaire (yes the one and only). So basically, the lineage was much better on him than the mare, haha.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Kyro said:


> Well, this escalated into something that was very interesting and informative to read. Thanks everyone!  I'll probably read the discussions here at least three more times before I think I've understood, haha.
> 
> The stallion was indeed very choppy to ride, on the few occasions that I did. He had trouble moving freely even in the pasture, trot especially. I'm guessing because his pasterns couldn't absorb the impact well(?), his front legs were often swollen and needed tending. For that, I am happy he is in the skies now, free from it all..though he was a lovely horse, the sweetest stallion. He followed me around everywhere and just made me laugh. I guess I was too naiive, didn't think that something other than his pasters were a problem before.. but it's good to know, now I can be more watchful of these traits in other horses.
> 
> ...


Do you know the lineage on the Andalusian side?
And that damline on the sire?

Guido is a jumper line, but I like a little jumping blood if the damline is a good type. I would like if the mare was lighter - but might be just that she is fat. 
Andalusian lines again depend on the bloodline as far as suitability for modern competition - and especially if the mare has been crossed out with lots of draft blood this can diminish the possibility for a good dressage horse.

To complement a dutch jumping line I would want to see a nice rideable mare with 3 pure gaits and a good type that is not heavy, and also a horse who is not spooky or flighty. Then, it still depends on what traits the foal inherits from each parent. But I would not fault the stud based on the sire line, but I don't know the dam line.

An interesting cross - but because of the different type of each horse, I would be wary of creating a "frankenhorse", but also the possibility to create a nice horse.


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## Impressa (Mar 3, 2014)

*I noticed this as well. but...*



lilruffian said:


> He seems very over at the knee in all of the photos but the one of him at 4 months. May be a concern but it may also mean that he is straightening out.
> He looks like he should develope for the most part into a solid, handsome fellow, though.



I like the pic of him jumping.. good sign ! He looks nice jumping. Dressage you say? I think he's told u what he wants.


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

It is time to wake up this old thread. 

He is now almost a year old, but his hind pasterns still remain upright. Like his sire. I am not surprised, yet everything inside of me is hoping he will grow out of it.. that really isn't a possibility is it? Or do I have hope? If you have ever known a horse with upright pasterns, did he have problems with his legs straight away or did those issues appear when he was past the 15 mark? 

I read all the posts here and, of course, have come to the conclusion that it wouldn't be my best bet to buy him. Though, It's hard as I have grown to love him.. He has the sweetest temperament, not bossy at all yet curious. I attached (rather poor) quality pictures of him I did today. I could do better pictures on saturday, as then I can ask someone to hold him for me. But I doubt it changes anything. He is what he is - and he's going through his yearling fugly phrase so there's not much to look at. Just did the pictures to see if there has been a change with his pasterns. Sorry for the pasture being a field of poop, that's early spring for you


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

Another picture, just for fun!


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

The average yearling is going to be awkward and unfortunate looking compared to how they will look in a few years AND the pictures aren't the most flattering conformation photos, but even taking that into account I would not look into buying him. Perhaps he will look a little better in a couple of years, but that's not a risk that I would take given the current photos. As much as you love him, I would pass. Perhaps look into how he looks a few years from now if he's available then, but I definitely wouldn't buy him now.


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