# Cowboy and his Roach back.



## FreeDestiny (Jul 3, 2011)

Not sure if this post was rude or not...

Either way that's great news, good luck with him. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lubylol (Aug 8, 2011)

Lol yeah it did kind of sound rude..but everyone on another thread was yelling at me saying the complete opposite. Sigh..big mess lol!

And thanks 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

You had a vet out on a Sunday, that is dedication.


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

I'm glad to hear that so far Cowboy hasn't sustained any damage from jumping and overall use. I'd be interested to hear what the vet's assessment was of Cowboy's situation and overall chances of long term soundness if continued to be worked in the same fashion? Just curious about what a medical professional's view of this would be.


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## Serendipitous (May 27, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> You had a vet out on a Sunday, that is dedication.


She actually said she "_talked_ to the BO and the vet today."


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## ponyjocky (Apr 12, 2010)

that horse has a severe deformity. where you specific about how much you ride him and how high you jump to the vet? 

I copied this off the internet maybe you should read it.

It is a convex (upward) curvature of the spine in the area where the loins join the croup (the coupling). It affects any sport requiring collection or lateral bend, such as dressage, jumping, and stock horse performance.
The breadth and strength of the loin muscles is less developed in a roached back horse. Since the vertebrae are already fixed in a curved position, the attached muscles can't contract properly to round and elevate the back. It's hard to elevate the muscles of the loins, so the horse has trouble engaging the haunches
The horse will take shorter steps behind, since the vertebrae have less range of motion. This affects sports like jumping and dressage. The stiffness through the back limits both its up and down motion and its ability to bend laterally (side to side).
The horse feels stiff to the rider as well, with no elasticity in his movement. Sports like barrel racing, poles, cutting and reining are all very difficult for a horse with such a stiff back, and the horse is more prone to back pain. The horse is much less agile than a horse with a normal spine conformation.
Some improvement is possible through exercises, but these horses are better off in work that doesn't require collection and bending.




100% TRUE


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Serendipitous said:


> She actually said she "_talked_ to the BO and the vet today."



OK if she talked to the vet it means that the horse wasn't examined which makes his opinion a little less than gospel in IMHO.

I'm just surprised that a vet is available for anything but emergencies, I wish we had some available vets on a Sunday, ours are definitely emergencies only:-(


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## ponyjocky (Apr 12, 2010)

ACCIDENTAL DOUBLE POST


anyway, i didn't read that part..that she only talked to the vet. no wonder she said the horse is okay to ride.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

If you had a hands-on exam, good for you.
I wish you and Cowboy many fun, healthy years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

Lubylol - I am sure it was really hard hearing your horse has a deformity that you weren't aware of...especially when your original post was about his bloodlines, right?

I don't think the majority of the posts were intended to be rude.. I think people just got concerned when they thought he was being worked in a way that would cause problems or pain for him.... I am glad you got a vet opinion on how he can be used and as long as you and he are comfortable, that is what is important.

Cheers, Kris


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I saw the pictures of Cowboy, and I saw his roached back. I agree that it would seem to affect his usability. But, I have to admit, that he looked good in the picture of him going over a jump . He even had a modest bascule, which is more than I can say for many non-roach backed horses. It is possible that he has adapted to his deformity and does ok. 

I think the OP may be a bit more aware of Cowboy's possible weakness since posting here, but it's not imposssible that Cowboy can jump ok. Sometime horses surprise us.
It's just that we hope she will keep watching him with care and awareness to any kind of pain related behaviours, because it is more likely to happen in Cowboy's case.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Just out of curiosity, did the vet actually lay hands on Cowboy yesterday?


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Ace80908 said:


> I don't think the majority of the posts were intended to be rude.. I think people just got concerned when they thought he was being worked in a way that would cause problems or pain for him.... I am glad you got a vet opinion on how he can be used and as long as you and he are comfortable, that is what is important.


It's difficult to determine the nature of the post when you can only read. However, when a post is made, on a Sunday that says "BO and vet say it's ok to jump . . . . "

That I find to be a 'in your face, nanny, nanny boo boo' 

The bad thing is - the horse does NOT belong to the OP. It doesn't matter what the BO or vet say, it's the horse owner who needs to make the decision.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I have to assume some things were edited out of this thread.....




tinyliny said:


> I think the OP may be a bit more aware of Cowboy's possible weakness since posting here, but it's not imposssible that Cowboy can jump ok. Sometime horses surprise us.


You are confusing being able to do something with should be doing something, OK.

Just because the horse is a saint and is willing to do what is asked of him (when his telling them it hurts, aka bucking is ignored and punished) does not mean he should be jumping.

And from what the OP has posted I clearly see that the OP has not even slightly become more aware of Cowboy's weakness, let alone being willing to put what is best for the horse in front of what she wants to do.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

While I understand the OPs need to defend themeselves regarding the health and care they provide to their horse. (I believe that horse is very healthy and happy by all appearances - no question.)

I also see the need to explain the potential issues and the concerns regarding the severity of this roach back. I feel like however, at some point it becomes a mute point.

OP - From the pictures you've posted of your horse I would quickly jump on the "he's perfectly happy and has no pain what so ever" band wagon had I not just had the chiropractor out for my horse. He is an all arounder and never says no. I noticed that he was having some issues with his hip which is why had my vet out (my vet is also a liscenced chiropractor). She did a lameness exam and a realignement while also checking the fit of my saddle. It turns out he was in some pretty fair amount of pain and had been for quite some time. He never said no and was always in a happy mood.

I'm saying this because I agree that it would be worth while for a vet to look at your horse. I wouldn't make it an emergency call or anything but I would consider not jumping or at least lowering the height of the jumps and the amount of time spent over fences until I had an evaluation. But in the end, the choice is yours.

I do wish you luck and he is a really pretty boy. Roach back or not, I think he's super cute.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

farmpony84 said:


> I not just had the chiropractor out for my horse. He is an all arounder and never says no. I noticed that he was having some issues with his hip which is why had my vet out (my vet is also a liscenced chiropractor). She did a lameness exam and a realignement while also checking the fit of my saddle. It turns out he was in some pretty fair amount of pain and had been for quite some time. He never said no and was always in a happy mood.


It never ceases to amaze me what our horses will put up with in the way of pain, with sometimes only the smallest hints at the fact they are struggling. They will have a total head fit at horse eating bucket, that has been left in the wrong place, but be stoic working with an injury.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

NdAppy said:


> Just out of curiosity, did the vet actually lay hands on Cowboy yesterday?


I would also like to know this. Its hard for me to believe a vet would OK a horse to be jumped or even ridden with a deformation such as that. 

The OP said he randomly bucks while being ridden. She claims it is because he is "lazy" or because she wasnt jumping correctly. With a back like that, I am leaning towards bucking because of pain not because he is being a brat.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Also, just a thought, isn't the OP on the east coast and having to have dealt with the hurricane/tropical storm that was/is going on? I honestly find it hard to beleive that a vet would make a routine call in those conditions on a Sunday. Would love to be wrong, but it is very hard to beleive...


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

ND, she indicates Pasadena, which is in California, unless there's another one on the east coast somewhere.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Hmm. Well her "homepage" is her facebook and makes references to not having power.  My bad, was guessing it had to do with the hurricane. 

Also, being form So Cal myself, I know of no vets that are willing to make vet calls on Sunday unless it is life or death...


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Dunno, could be Pasadena, MD. I even know where that is! :wink:


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## lubylol (Aug 8, 2011)

Sorry I haven't replied my phone died due to no power lol.. Yes I live in Pasadena, Maryland..hurricane was pretty bad but luckily no horses blew away 

The BO actually owns Cowboy in which I didn't know about (BO's brother is the husband of Cowboy's owner [kim] who I think just acts like he owns him)

Cowboy had an examination before the BO bought him, and said he was fine, and had no pain. This was about a year ago. The BO called the vet and asked, and he said he was fine as long because he hadn't had any sudden changes with his behavior. There is a vet coming out on sept 6 at 10am, and I asked if the vet could just look over his back, and the BO said that he's already been examined.

It seems as if you guys assume that I just want to ride him and that I don't care about how he's feeling. I love this horse to death and if he was in pain I would stop riding him in a heart beat.

To all of you that are saying Cowboy is definitely bucking because he's in pain..you guys have never ridden him. When he first started doing it, it would scare me so I would tell the BM if she could check out my tack, check for pain, and get on him to see what his deal was. I must have asked her around 5 times within a 2 month period, and everytime she would get on him, it was the same answer. My seat was the problem because he was taking advantage of it..so she told me to sit back with a confident seat and VOILA he learned that I could be scared no more lol.

I am giving a big thanks to the people that are wishing me luck with me and Cowboy's future. Thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I would wonder if maybe Cowboy's owner has his best interest at heart....


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

The fact that you do not own Cowboy changes everything. Having the vet out is not your call. You have no control over the situation in that case.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> I would wonder if maybe Cowboy's owner has his best interest at heart....


Ditto this.

Also, a vet cannot truely say whether a horse is in pain or not from just a phone call. They need to have a hands on examination in order to determine that. Personally, if I were you, I would not be satisfied if the vet said he was fine without even examining him...


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Luby, does your barn owner not have any other horses you can ride?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Popping in to hit my head against my desk,







and now leaving.

OP I wish you all the best, but most of all I really hope that everyone concerned listens to Cowboy and that he lives a long happy and pain free life.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> I would wonder if maybe Cowboy's owner has his best interest at heart....


I wonder that also AB. 

It's just hard to accept that he can't be in pain with that severe curvature in his spine doing jumping work. I'd personally be leery to ride him at all let alone expect him to do any strenuous work. 

OP, I do hope that he checks out okay with the vet the next time around but have a hard time imagining that he would. It does sound like you have his best interests at heart.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

lubylol said:


> The BO actually owns Cowboy in which I didn't know about (BO's brother is the husband of Cowboy's owner [kim] who I think just acts like he owns him)


So the BO is married to her brother?


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## lubylol (Aug 8, 2011)

Alwaysbehind, what do you mean?

And actually since Cowboy is in my family, and I've been told I can act like he's mine, so yes having the vet out is my call. Of course I'm not going to call the vet to have them out, more like hey BO something's wrong with Cowboy, call the vet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lubylol (Aug 8, 2011)

LOL it's so hard not using names lol.

BO is Janice. Janice's brother, Doug, is married to Kim. Kim is my mom's cousin..so really Kim is my second cousin. But I really have no idea what to call her lol, aunt, cousin? Idk. But Kim 'owns' Cowboy, although I learned that she really doesn't own him and he's still in Mrs Janice's name.

She (BO) has 2 other horses, Majic and Checkers. I ride Checkers too so then my friend rides Cowboy..but Checkers is lame and limping, so he's on stall rest. Poor baby  

And as for Majic, someone leases him so it'd be pointless to ask to ride him when the leasee comes down a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

lubylol said:


> Alwaysbehind, what do you mean?


I mean.....

I know many people who will say something is fine just to be able to continue doing what they are doing.

I believe that is what Cowboy's owner is doing here. She does not have his best interest at heart. If riding him was proclaimed to be painful then she would have a horse that only costs money and no one can use.


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## lubylol (Aug 8, 2011)

Oh, that kind of confuses me, are you saying that Cowboy is in pain and she's only saying he isn't so he isn't a lawn ornament, and someone is riding him?

Sorta confused.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

Lubylol no one can tell you what to do. However if you are serious about your jumping you should be able to see that conformationally this is not the horse to reach goals with. 
Cowboy looks very sweet and I am thrilled that you take so much pride in him, however that does not change the fact that he has a physically challenging conformation fault. Given the information you've provided in this and other threads and seeing his stance as well as his expression in your photos I, and others, feel that without having met him, ridden him and jumped him ourselves that no - this is not the job for him. No, we haven't ridden _him_ but all horses speak the same language. 

Regardless of how much he tells you he is in pain or not, heavy riding and jumping would be OUT if he were my horse. My German Shepherd in her younger years blew out her knee and was no longer used for the job she was intended for. She _WANTED_ to, and did not show pain even when the joint was still injured! But even after it healed it was not in her best interest to be heavily used regardless of her desire to. It is not always best to leave the decision up to the animal whos nature is not to show pain and whos nature is to please their master.

In response to your vet, I have one of those also. I've got a very cow hocked filly with a previously fractured knee who will never be ridden, not as long as I have a say. This vet asks when I am going to break that beautiful mare whenever he is around - find a second opinion. Agreed with alwaysbehind, I too wonder if the horses owner has his interests in mind.

Good luck with whatever you decide.


_*I believe that is what Cowboy's owner is doing here. She does not have his best interest at heart. If riding him was proclaimed to be painful then she would have a horse that only costs money and no one can use.*_
Edit to say: I wouldn't doubt the horses owner is keeping quite as she has a potential sale on the horse if the OP chooses to buy him. Why let the cat out of the bag before the sale when he can be someone elses problem next year?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Wonderful post, New Image.



lubylol said:


> Oh, that kind of confuses me, are you saying that Cowboy is in pain and she's only saying he isn't so he isn't a lawn ornament, and someone is riding him?


Yes.
That is what I am saying.

Maybe she is blind to his issues, as you were before we pointed them out. So maybe her saying 'he is fine' is simply her not knowing any better.


Read the wonderful post New Image just made above me.


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## lubylol (Aug 8, 2011)

Thanks New_image.

And in the future I would love to do cross country with Cowboy, but it's up to the vet about his jumping abilities.

Checker's will be a good project pony when he's off stall rest. I taught him how to canter under saddle so why can't I teach him how to jump.

If jumping causes Cowboy pain, then I will slow down with how much jumping we do, if I decide to jump him at all. But still I'd hate to see Cowboy stop doing what he loves, because the way he jumps vs. the way he's on the flat, he definitely enjoys it more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lubylol (Aug 8, 2011)

And new_image, I get what you mean, but that's just not like Mrs Janice since I haven't mentioned anything about buying him
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Luby, he may prefer it to being on the flat simply because it's not as boring as just going around and around in a ring.

Have you tried trail riding with him? He'd probably enjoy the heck out of that, and you wouldn't be straining his back so much since he wouldn't be jumping.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Sometimes though allowing them to continue to do something that would hurt them even if they love it, is not a good thing.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

lubylol said:


> And new_image, I get what you mean, but that's just not like Mrs Janice since I haven't mentioned anything about buying him
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You have only mentioned that here?


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## lubylol (Aug 8, 2011)

I've done trail riding with Cowboy, but he really doesn't behave, and we end up jumping anyways over the logs. And besides I'd hate to have to retire such a young horse to just trail riding when he has a good solid 30 years in front of him.

And no I haven't mentioned the buying part because after I posted the thread about buying him, was when I posted about his bloodlines..then everyone started yelling at me to not ride him, to not buy him, etc..so I kept it in my best interest to not mention anything about it to the BO unless I was sure I could handle all his problems and if he really is the right horse for me to do what I want in the future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I really do not think being ridden at all, not even on trails, is comfortable for him. You keep seeming to miss that point.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

alwaysbehind said:


> i really do not think being ridden at all, not even on trails, is comfortable for him. You keep seeming to miss that point.


 ^^^ this!


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

lubylol said:


> ... he has a good solid 30 years in front of him.


I don't really think he has that many riding years ahead of him. The stress put on his spine, muscles and tendons will wear him down long before that. I just don't think this horse is able to be the jumper you want him to be. Just my opinion.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I've been kind of staying out of this thread, but you know, I think many of us are being judgmental (the collective "us," not pointing at anyone in particular). 

I know we are concerned about what's best for the horse, and quite frankly I was shocked at the severity of his back when I saw pictures of Cowboy for the first time. But here is a horse with some training, that can handle at least some light use. Why not use him? He will never be a stadium jumper, but if a young girl (?) wants to pop him over a few jumps or trail ride or whatever, would it be better for the horse just to sit and never get any attention at all? He will probably grow old before his time, but that is due to the deformity more than any mileage anyone has put on him. He could probably live in a padded stall and still get old before his time.

So I don't know. I kind of have mixed feelings on this. I would just suggest to the OP that if the horse has resistance or bucking, be aware that it is likely a pain issue, not a naughty-horse issue, and be mindful that he is resisting from discomfort rather than being bad. And back off the work if that happens. Otherwise, I don't see why she can't ride him lightly and even jump him lightly. 

Cowboy knows no other way than the way his back is shaped now. If he's not in pain, then whatever mobility (or lack thereof) is normal for him and he doesn't know he has a problem. So I would let the horse be the guide. If he feels like riding, ride him. If he puts up resistance, back off the riding.

And really, where does one draw the line? What about a horse with crooked legs, long back, poor conformation in general? An older horse starting to get arthritis? Where does one draw the line when considering the usability of the horse? I'm sure everyone on here, myself included, has probably ridden a horse in slight discomfort whether we realized it or not. It's easy to point fingers at others when the case looks extreme, but I think we are all guilty of this on some level. 

I have a colt born with a deformed leg. I don't know what the future holds, other than he seems sound on it right now. I just can't cry over it anymore, so I plan to train him like any other horse to use for trail riding. If the leg causes him problems, I will cross that bridge when I get to it. What what else should I do? Put him in a padded stall and feed him for the next 30 years? Send him to an auction to end up at slaughter? I figure I have nothing to loose by using him as a normal horse until he proves otherwise, mindful that he could have some limitations. I try to be very mindful of my horses soundness anyway, even the "normal" ones.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

The example that was made of the dog wanting to do something but it was not in his best interest is a good one.

This horse might be trained and it might be willing to work even though it is very painful. But is that the right thing to do to the horse?

How can anyone look at that back and think it is OK to put a saddle on it and ride?


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## lubylol (Aug 8, 2011)

Trailhorserider THANK YOUU. That is what I've been trying to say, or mean to say. Why waste his whole life because a couple of people sware his back is so bad you can't ride him. I know his back and where his extents are, so please leave the judgement to me.

If he's in pain I don't ride him, if he's willing to work then I ride him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lubylol (Aug 8, 2011)

And yes I'm young. 15 lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

lubylol said:


> If he's in pain I don't ride him, if he's willing to work then I ride him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Horses are hard wired to not show pain.

If they look weak they get eaten.


Add that he has gotten in trouble for showing pain before (bucking).


He shows pain. Really he does. He stands like a horse in pain. His photos scream 'horse in pain'.

You are just not wanting to see it.

You have yourself believing that because he is willing to go then he must not be in pain.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

luby, I didn't go through all pages, so I'm still in dark who owns him. But if he'd be my horse I'd at least call chiro and the vet to be 100% sure he's NOT in pain. And if you insist on riding than good saddle fitter is next in line to be be sure saddle will fit (if it's possible with such back at all). As already mentioned, you may not even notice horse is in pain as some of them just "keep it to themselves".


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

iridehorses said:


> So the BO is married to her brother?


Nevermind this thread confuses me too much


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

lubylol said:


> And besides I'd hate to have to retire such a young horse to just trail riding when he has a good solid 30 years in front of him.


Actually I think this is completely backwards. 
People are concerned that if you keep riding the horse and jumping as frequently as you are doing, he could only have another 5 years left of riding. 

If you do light trail riding with him, he could easily have 30 years of riding left. And as far as trees on the trail, they can be stepped over, they don't HAVE to be jumped. 

I think that you just really love your horse and are having a hard time hearing that you shouldn't be doing the type of riding that you want to do with him.


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## lubylol (Aug 8, 2011)

I don't understand why I am being yelled at and punished on all my threads with Cowboy. No my picture does not scream 'horse in pain'

Cowboy has one back that he has dealt with his whole life, it's not like it's new. He's gotten used to it. If his back was so bad, he wouldn't have been broke.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Why do you think anyone is yelling at you?

Try reading the posts with the thought that we care instead of like you think we are yelling at you.


There are lots of people and animals that have been in pain their entire lives.

I would bet Cowboy is one of them.


And sorry, but the way he stands in the photos looks like a horse in pain.


Can you tell me why you say he is not in pain? How do you know he is not in pain?


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

lubylol said:


> I don't understand why I am being yelled at and punished on all my threads with Cowboy.


This comment directly followed my post. I was not yelling at you at all, nor have I seen anyone else being mean, punishing or yelling.


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## lubylol (Aug 8, 2011)

Whatever. You guys don't own him nor seem him, nor ride him. I didn't start this thread to have a repeat of the last one. I only started it to clear things up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Which it did not clear anything up. The vet did not actually lay hands on him so cannot say that he is not in pain.


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## lubylol (Aug 8, 2011)

The vet previously did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

lubylol said:


> Whatever. You guys don't own him nor seem him, nor ride him. I didn't start this thread to have a repeat of the last one. I only started it to clear things up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We've probably seen enough from all the pictures of him, and that video.:-|


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

lubylol said:


> Whatever. You guys don't own him nor seem him, nor ride him. I didn't start this thread to have a repeat of the last one. I only started it to clear things up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you really think we are all just lying to you?

Yes, that is a serious question. Do you think we are just telling you this to be mean and we really do not think it is the case?


Do you think we are typing this because we like to type?


How about we type it because we care?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

lubylol said:


> The vet previously did.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not recently though correct?

Then no, what the vet said previously has no standing on if he is or is not in pain _at this point in time._


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I can see her point that the vet checked him previously and his back was like that at that point. 

However did the vet have the information at that time that you were jumping him daily? 
It would be one thing for the vet to ok him for riding if the information they had was different from the current situation.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

AlexS said:


> I can see her point that the vet checked him previously and his back was like that at that point.


I have a hard time believing any good vet would say that horse is not in pain when it comes to riding.

I can see a vet saying, 'um, sure, ride him, you certainly can not make it any worse than it already is' and people taking that mean it is fine to ride them.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I can see a few situations that totally depends on the information given to the vet. The OP is only 15, so for all we know the vet could have been asked if the horse is ok to putze around a field with a child on the back. 

OP when the vet is out in Sept, can you be there and ask questions that are relevant to you and your riding?


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Hey Luby,

I've been a bystander mostly. And I'm sorry I know it must feel like everyone is putting down the horse that you love. He does look like a very sweet boy. It sucks to hear your horse isn't good enough. I know, I've heard it when I refer to some of my horses. He looks like he really wants to take care of you. And I think that with the right amount of care and things he'd probably be okay to ride.... but not long term. He's pretty bad. I know that the people that deal with him and you everyday are probably telling you it's okay... and I don't know how they haven't pointed out or realized that he has that big of an issue. 

My concern with your boy is that he went from this:








To this









Which to me honestly looks like he is getting worse. I know that you probably are taking what everyone is saying with a grain of salt. And I understand the denial aspect of everything. I'd just like you to take a step back and really look. LOOK at this. From what the members on here are seeing is your guy is probably uncomfortable due to this curvature of his spine. I know that I would be. 

So please don't take what I'm saying as rude. I'm not trying to be. I think he's got a nice kind look to him and I think he's a grand horse for doing everything that is asked of him.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

lubylol said:


> No my picture does not scream 'horse in pain'


I wasn't going to get involved in this, but I just have to say: Yes, your pictures DO scream "Horse In Pain!" The way he has his hind legs tucked up under him...that's not a natural way for a healthy, sound, pain-free horse to stand. If you don't believe me, google "standing horse in pain." A quarter of the pictures on the first page alone are horses with known back pain that are standing in the exact same camped-out stance that Cowboy is standing in. 

I know it's difficult to hear this. My old gelding was an amazing little hunter horse, which is what I would have loved to have done with him. But, because he was used too hard, too early by his previous owners, he had severely arthitic hocks. If you didn't warm him up sufficiently before a workout (especially in winter), he stood exactly how Cowboy is standing...like he HURT! Now, he is used for nothing but light trails, and then only a couple times a week. Could I have done hunter with him? You bet! If there was a jump set up in the arena, he wanted to go over it, whether you asked him to or not. Was it worth him being so lame after he jumped that he could barely walk? Not at all.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

lubylol said:


> BO is Janice. Janice's brother, Doug, is married to Kim. Kim is my mom's cousin..so really Kim is my second cousin. But I really have no idea what to call her lol, aunt, cousin? Idk. But Kim 'owns' Cowboy, although I learned that she really doesn't own him and he's still in Mrs Janice's name.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well that is clear as mud. Wouldn't it have been a million times simpler to just say the BO owns him??


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

...SO...

67 responses insisting the horse is roach backed and needs a veterinary consultation... We about done yet?


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I wasn't going to get involved in this, but I just have to say: Yes, your pictures DO scream "Horse In Pain!" The way he has his hind legs tucked up under him...that's not a natural way for a healthy, sound, pain-free horse to stand. If you don't believe me, google "standing horse in pain." A quarter of the pictures on the first page alone are horses with known back pain that are standing in the exact same camped-out stance that Cowboy is standing in.


YES!

Boarders horse with the very same roached back. Part of the issue from photo one to photo two is weight loss. Boarder purchased horse 'fat'. Hid the problem.

Keeping that area of the spine muscled is difficult but even more so if you are JUMPING. At recommendation of our vet, boarder rides 3-4 days a week. Trot poles 1-2 times a week to ensure the back is supported with strong abdominal muscles.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Sahara said:


> Well that is clear as mud. Wouldn't it have been a million times simpler to just say the BO owns him??


Because per that long post the BO does not really own him, best I can tell.

Barn owner is J.
J's brother is D and D is married to K. K owns the horse.




farmpony84 said:


> ...SO...
> 
> 67 responses insisting the horse is roach backed and needs a veterinary consultation... We about done yet?


Obviously not because the OP still thinks we are all lying to her.

I really do want to her to ask herself why would we all be lying to her.

And seriously, at least everyone else is discussing the issue (unlike your post). If you do not like the discussion, you are a mod. Lock it again. Then the OP will continue riding the horse that she thinks is happy being ridden even though it is in pain.

I am truly hoping we can open this young lady's eyes to something she did not realize before. Right now she is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Her relatives who have been very nice to her are telling her what she is doing is fine. A bunch of people she does not know on the internet are telling her otherwise. I think she sees the logic in what we are saying but the side that loves riding this horse and loves her relatives does not want to believe us.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Because per that long post the BO does not really own him, best I can tell.
> 
> Barn owner is J.
> J's brother is D and D is married to K. K owns the horse.
> ...


As long as the debate stays civil then continue on

PS - I actually posted something I hoped would be helpful to the OP....


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## lubylol (Aug 8, 2011)

Guys I donKt think anyone is lying. But what someone said, why do we need D0some posts all stating the same thing.

Yes Cowboy has a problem. Is he the only one? No. You guys act as if no other horse has this problem and I'm the only owner with this kind of horse.

And also, what's wrong with the videi of him going through the jump. Is he the only one? No. In my other thread about guessing the breeds, Priss, she was in a show and did the exact same thing.

For all of you who are saying that I should stop riding him...well what am - supposed to do? Let him be a lawn ornament? No. That is not why - love him. I love him because we have a bond, especially when we ride. And no I'm not going to just keep riding him because of the bond, but because he is only 8 yrs old.

And also that TB on the other thread - posted gets jumped about 3 feet. He looks more in pain than Cowboy, but the vet cleared him.

Why can't you guys just live with the fact that he's able to be ridden and move on?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

lubylol said:


> For all of you who are saying that I should stop riding him...well what am - supposed to do? Let him be a lawn ornament?
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


YES! How hard is it to understand he bucks because he hurts..not because he's being a PITA. How hard is it to just love him and take him on trails? IF you want to jump, take lessons, find a horse to lease and go that route. You don't own this horse, your sisters moms brothers wife does. (however that story goes)


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

lubylol said:


> And no I'm not going to just keep riding him because of the bond, but because he is only 8 yrs old.


Well, with that being said....I suggest you get an equine chiropractor to work on Cowboy on a regular basis. He will definitely need one.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

I think we have over exceeded our advice here.. The Thoroughbred you posted didn't have that bad of a roach back. But you do what you want with your horse. Hopefully nobody has to say told you so.


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## lubylol (Aug 8, 2011)

k
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Barn owner is J.
> J's brother is D and D is married to K. K owns the horse.
> 
> 
> ...


 
LIke I said, clear as mud. The OP said K doesn't own him. He is still in J's name.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

lubylol said:


> I'm the only owner with this kind of horse.



Nononononono The OP owns him :roll:


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## Dresden (Jun 24, 2011)

You are not the only owner with this type of horse. My horse is roach backed. Not quite as severe and he doesn't have a few of the other conformation faults but Lucky is roach backed. The point you are missing is that other owners take their horses limitations into consideration. I bought Lucky for light riding. I still ride him 5-6 times a week. We walk/trot mostly and on mls' suggestion we are trotting poles more often and doing carrot stretches to compensate for his roach back. 

I had hoped someday to do some jumping with Lucky. He has jumped in the past and loves it. Because of your threads, I will NOT be jumping Lucky. I want him to stay sound as long as possible because I do love him and we have a bond, whether we jump or not. So my horse will not be in pain because of your threads and those who've posted on them. At least one horse has been spared from pushing himself too hard. Thank you to the OP and those who've posted. Even if the OP isn't listening, other people who have this sort of horse ARE. Thank you. Lucky thanks you too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

I think you need to step back and look at what this horse _can_ do, versus what he can do _without hurting. _The dog example was a great one. I have a German Shepherd/lab mix we brought home from the pound who LOVES playing with the foals and running around at the barn. Unfortunately, he was abused as a puppy and has bad back/hip problems, though he's only 3. Sure, he would love to run around and play with the foals every day. BUT I have to monitor him so he doesn't hurt himself because _he is_ _physically incapable of working himself that hard._ 

If you really love this horse, can you spend time with him by grooming him and visiting him in the pasture?


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## Silent one (Aug 22, 2011)

Dresden said:


> You are not the only owner with this type of horse. My horse is roach backed. Not quite as severe and he doesn't have a few of the other conformation faults but Lucky is roach backed. The point you are missing is that other owners take their horses limitations into consideration. I bought Lucky for light riding. I still ride him 5-6 times a week. We walk/trot mostly and on mls' suggestion we are trotting poles more often and doing carrot stretches to compensate for his roach back.
> 
> I had hoped someday to do some jumping with Lucky. He has jumped in the past and loves it. Because of your threads, I will NOT be jumping Lucky. I want him to stay sound as long as possible because I do love him and we have a bond, whether we jump or not. So my horse will not be in pain because of your threads and those who've posted on them. At least one horse has been spared from pushing himself too hard. Thank you to the OP and those who've posted. Even if the OP isn't listening, other people who have this sort of horse ARE. Thank you. Lucky thanks you too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am very glad to see these posts have had some affect in helping at least someone make a very tough decision.

And OP, I do feel sorry for you, its tough to hear that something you want so badly is not in the best interest of your horse. I hope that you can find it in your heart to put aside your heartfelt wants long enough in your mind to carefully consider the best interests of the horse.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

A horse with that severe of a deformity shouldnt even be sat on IMO. I dont understand how someone can even think that riding him would be ok. Your only hurting your horse by continuing to ride him. He would be much happier in a pasture getting groomed and being treated like a big puppy dog. Not to mention he would be in alot less pain then if you were riding him.


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## reveriesgirly (Aug 17, 2009)

I just have to say something. Devyn(Luby) has been my bestfriend from the begginging of cowboy, even before. I do know, that most of the time cowboy was bucking because he was green. I agree with devyn when she says, her and i know
Cowboy better then you guys, but devyn, think about this. These people on here are just looking out for cowboy, and most of them are VERY knowledgeable horse owners. Were only 15, and theyve been riding and training horses before we were even thought of. Personally, I think cowboys sound to be ridden. You guys are absolutely right saying he probably is in pain, maybe not as severe as some of of you may say, but I do think he is in pain. I'm not smart on conformation, but from day one I thought cowboy looked funny. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but if he lives everyday in pain, sitting in the field or not, then what's the harm in lightly riding him once or twice a week? I can't imagine how hard you taking this all, but I don't think cowboy should be deemed a "lawn ornament" until he's been vetted. Dont take this personally, because it's beyond your control, but if you listen to what some pepole are saying, you could make cowboys and your life a whole lot more enjoyable. Hang in there dev, I love you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

Linda Tellington-Jones has a great DVD out about stretching exercises for horses. Even stuff for dogs and cats!


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## lubylol (Aug 8, 2011)

thanks jordyn :3
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DraftXDressage (Aug 29, 2011)

reveriesgirly said:


> You guys are absolutely right saying he probably is in pain, maybe not as severe as some of of you may say, but I do think he is in pain. I'm not smart on conformation, but from day one I thought cowboy looked funny. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but if he lives everyday in pain, sitting in the field or not, then what's the harm in lightly riding him once or twice a week?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm new to this thread (and to this forum, for that matter), but I've seen Cowboy's photos from the other thread. His back is a rather severe case, and I think about it the same way I think the scoliosis in my own back. I can do lots and lots of things pain-free. Most things, really. But I have to be very, very careful with my back. I have to take particular care to strengthen my core to support my spine, since an S-shaped curve isn't as strong as a straight line, and I have to limit the activities that put particular strain on my back. For instance, I really cannot carry large, heavy handbags or laptop bags; that's just a fact of my life.

Similarly for Cowboy, his pain can be managed. Chiropractic care and a stretching and conditioning program tailored to his physical limitations would go a long way toward helping him be comfortable again. However, there are some activities that put a lot more strain on the back than others, and jumping is one of those activities. Properly managed, conditioned, and saddle-fitted (not a real verb, but go with it), he may well be able to comfortably do light rides for years to come. However, the realities of Cowboy's body make it very, very likely that he cannot and will not be comfortable if his routine includes any amount of jumping.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Dresden said:


> You are not the only owner with this type of horse. My horse is roach backed. Not quite as severe and he doesn't have a few of the other conformation faults but Lucky is roach backed. The point you are missing is that other owners take their horses limitations into consideration. I bought Lucky for light riding. I still ride him 5-6 times a week. We walk/trot mostly and on mls' suggestion we are trotting poles more often and doing carrot stretches to compensate for his roach back.
> 
> I had hoped someday to do some jumping with Lucky. He has jumped in the past and loves it. Because of your threads, I will NOT be jumping Lucky. I want him to stay sound as long as possible because I do love him and we have a bond, whether we jump or not. So my horse will not be in pain because of your threads and those who've posted on them. At least one horse has been spared from pushing himself too hard. Thank you to the OP and those who've posted. Even if the OP isn't listening, other people who have this sort of horse ARE. Thank you. Lucky thanks you too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Huge hugs to Dresden!

What an amazing post that shows you are a true horse person.



lubylol said:


> thanks jordyn :3
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Luby, did you actually read what your friend posted?
It does not sound like you did.

If you do not think we are lying to you how can you turn around and proclaim we are wrong?

I gave you an out. Your long rant at us proved to me that you are being a kid who cares more about what they want to do than what is best for their horse. 
You are basically saying: Who cares about the facts. I want to ride and have fun and I am going to do it because I want to.


Here is the short version of facts.

Cowboy has a very deformed back. Not a slightly deformed back, a very extremely deformed back. You are sitting on his back. Do you see the conflict?

Light riding will cause him less discomfort than jumping, for sure. I would think that even light riding would be painful with the amount of deformity he has.




reveriesgirly said:


> Were only 15, and theyve been riding and training horses before we were even thought of.


Giggle. That is so true. But it still makes me feel old.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Reading this thread with interest and amazement. To the OP, here is another 15yr old who feels she knows more than all of us and to me is just trying to create drama. Now her friend, who is the same age, sounds so much more mature and is using the information she read to try to make her friend, the OP understand what we are saying. However, it seems the OP is not going to listen to anyone but herself.
To the OP: I want you to do an experiment. Get one of your mom's shoes that has a 3 or 4 inch heal. Put that on one foot. Wear a tennis shoe on the other. Okay, now do your daily things, except riding. Walk, run, carry your books, do your chores, do everythng you normally do, run in school, climb stairs, everythng, but you can't take off the shoe with the heel on it. After the whole day of not cheating, how is you back feeling? If you tell the truth, it probably hurts like heck. Will hurt more the second day and the third, and so on. This is how your horse feels. He is doing the things you make him do because he has been taught to do it or get in trouble, or spurred, or hit with a quirt, or jerked on his mouth, or he is a sweet loving horse and does it because you ask him to. He can't take off his bad curvature, he has to have it day in and day out. You already said he bucks, he does that because he hurts.
A race horse runs with a fracture to finish that race because he has been trained to run and not stop and he loves to run, broken leg and all. That is why some horses pull up lame after a race, because the pain is not felt during a race. They don't feel a shoe has been torn off, they just want to finish the race. A police dog goes after a bad guy because he has been trained to do it, doesn't know a bullet will kill him, but does it for the loyalty and training of his owner.
DraftXdressage wrote about their experience with scoliosis and some things they cant do or what hurts. She also said it can be managed with exercises, meds, etc. I belleve a human can manage it with pain meds, exercise, etc but again, if you are hurting you stop.
You don't carry a bouncing rider on your back over jumps or being ridden . This horse does and when in pain, and who knows he might be in pain every time he is ridden, he can't stop, he has to do what the OP tells him to do. If he bucks or balks, so what, keep on riding.
OP, you say your BO and your vet says this horse can be ridden . The BO wants to keep up the financial aspect, has the vet actually SEEN this horse for hands on exam? I can tell you what both vets I work for would say..... Not what you would want to hear.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

*As we all know, Horse Forum members pride themselves in offering good advice....*

*but sometimes.....*




*"beating a dead horse"*








You are _*beating a dead horse*_ when you insist on talking about something that cannot be changed. Example: "I'd like to talk with you again about what happened." Reply: "Oh, come on. Let's not *beat a dead horse*." ​ 
_*Beating a dead horse*_ is an action that has no purpose, because no matter how hard or how long you *beat a dead horse*, it is not going to get up and run. Example: "Let's not talk about it any more. Okay?" Reply: "You're right. We're just *beating a dead horse*." ​

To repeatedly bring up a particular topic with no chance of affecting the outcome is _*beating a dead horse*_. Example: "Dad, are you sure we can't get a new computer for the upstairs?" Reply: "Son, we talked about this and the decision was 'no'. You are *beating a dead horse*." ​​


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