# Disgusting Situation and abuse of Arabian foal.



## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Since yesterday, thousands across the world, have watched this Arabian mare, savage her baby. The owner has had phone calls and emails, yet stands by and does nothing. She is THE perfect example of someone who should NOT be breeding horses. At this point, I consider the owner an abuser.

http://www.marestare.com/fcam.php?alias=acorn 

If anyone knows this woman or lives close by, please do try to do something. This baby will die soon if it doesn't stop. The mare has kicked, chased and bitten this baby savagely since yesterday.

Lizzie


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## GreyRay (Jun 15, 2010)

UGH! *headdesk*. Is she metally retarded? Some people...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

I see nothing. Maybe that's good
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

*tilts head* is there any other information out there on this?


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Hundreds of posts on several other forums. 

Lizzie


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## Fluffy Pony (May 2, 2010)

Link?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Link or links would surely help. Or an idea of what to search for...


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

There's just an empty stall right now..


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## LoveMyDrummerBoy (Nov 5, 2009)

Nothing is coming up for me either. Is there another link that you can post? Or another link to a thread about this on another forum?


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## Ladybug2001 (Mar 15, 2011)

Yeah, the stall is empty right now.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

what exactly was the mare doing to the foal? i assume if they're not in the stall now that SOMEONE has done something with them?


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## BackInTheSaddleAgain (Apr 20, 2009)

Can't find anything on other forums, either.


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## kimber769 (Aug 11, 2010)

check hgs forum under breeding section


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## kimber769 (Aug 11, 2010)

crimsonsky said:


> what exactly was the mare doing to the foal? i assume if they're not in the stall now that SOMEONE has done something with them?


biting at the foal, not letting her nurse for more than 30 seconds, kicking at her, at one point she lifted the foal up by the neck


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## Equus_girl (Jan 25, 2009)

This mare is being extremely mean to her foal! The poor baby tries to nurse and then gets chased around and bitten. She finally sinks to the ground and that seems to be the only time she isn't harassed. She seems to shake a lot. I feel so sorry for that poor filly!


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I haven't seen the video on mare stare, but the descriptions sound like classic foal rejection, where the mare just refuses to accept the foal. Somewhat common in Arabs, and more common in maiden mares. It is absolutely possible for the mare to kill the foal, and more commonly, for the foal to fail to thrive because it's not getting the food it needs. 

You try a bunch of different things to get the mare to accept the foal, but really, I never found any of them to work for long. 

Conventionial treatment is to restrain the mare so the foal can nurse for the first 24 hours or so; then remove the foal and either find a nurse mare for it or raise it as orphan. 

I'm assuming these people got advice for a knowledable breeder or vet and separated them.

ETA: I have a little problem with calling this abuse. If this mare foaled in the pasture or completely unsupervised, the foal would die from hypothermia or a failed immune system since it wouldn't get adquate colostrum. The worst thing that can be said about the owners or caretakers would be they didn't know how to handle the situation and didn't act immediately. That doesn't even meet my standard for neglect, let alone abuse. If failing to act immediately when faced with an unknown situation is the standard for abuse, lots and lots of us are guilty.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

maura said:


> I haven't seen the video on mare stare, but the descriptions sound like classic foal rejection, where the mare just refuses to accept the foal. ..*
> 
> ETA: I have a little problem with calling this abuse. If this mare foaled in the pasture or completely unsupervised, the foal would die from hypothermia or a failed immune system since it wouldn't get adquate colostrum. The worst thing that can be said about the owners or caretakers would be they didn't know how to handle the situation and didn't act immediately. That doesn't even meet my standard for neglect, let alone abuse. If failing to act immediately when faced with an unknown situation is the standard for abuse, lots and lots of us are guilty*.


THIS

I am just seeing an empty stall also, but from the sounds of it, the mare rejected the foal. That is just one of the risks of breeding horses. It's not abuse, it's just how nature works sometimes.

From the comments, it sounds like mare and foal are still together, but who knows...


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## BackInTheSaddleAgain (Apr 20, 2009)

They're back. Foal is nursing with someone at he head of the mare. Looks like they were injecting something in the mare's mouth.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Thank you, Maura. As usual, you're the voice of reason in a sea of hysteria and hyperbole. :wink:

I've seen mares reject foals. It happens more often than people might think.

The owners might be noobs who think if they just left the foal with mamma, maybe she'd finally accept it. Lord knows, if ignorance were a death sentence, plenty of people on this very BB would be dead.


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## kimber769 (Aug 11, 2010)

the mare seems calmer and let the filly nurse


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

A very common practice is to sedate the mare. Then she might make grinchy faces at the foal when it approaches, but will still let it nurse. Rather than outright attacking it as would be the case if the mare was not sedated. 

In the absence of hard evidence or any back story or history what so ever, I'm going to assume that the poor mare owners didn't have information about mares rejecting foals and were taken aback by this development. Once they did have the correct info, it appears they took appropriate action.


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## kimber769 (Aug 11, 2010)

maura said:


> A very common practice is to sedate the mare. Then she might make grinchy faces at the foal when it approaches, but will still let it nurse. Rather than outright attacking it as would be the case if the mare was not sedated.
> 
> In the absence of hard evidence or any back story or history what so ever, I'm going to assume that the poor mare owners didn't have information about mares rejecting foals and were taken aback by this development. Once they did have the correct info, it appears they took appropriate action.


I did read on another forum that the owners had never had to deal with this type of behavior before. I am just relieved to see that the mare is much calmer now and allowing the foal to nurse and sleep.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I see a foal laying there. I agree with the ridiculous notion of calling this abuse.

When Zierra was born, Zena wouldn't let her nurse. She was a maiden Arab mare, and she kept kicking and biting at her. My grandpa has bred Arabians for decades and said it was common in maiden mares, the teats hurt and they just don't understand. We ended up having to twitch her hard, and my grandpa crawled underneath carrying a rather weak Zierra and helped her nurse. After that, we had zero problems and Zena was a dedicated mother.

Sometimes it's not always what you think. The vast majority of people would have assumed Zena was rejecting her foal, and we avoided crisis.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This is one of the reasons I'll probably never have Mia bred. I'd like for her to have a foal, but I'm light-years away from knowing what to do if something went wrong...


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## kimber769 (Aug 11, 2010)

camera is off now


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Sorry to disagree with some here, but I do think it is a form of abuse, for the owner to watch two full days, as a baby is savaged by the mare. At the very least, it is abject irresponsibility. 

I gather they finally sedated the mare, which seemed to have helped. The cameras are now turned off and many/most of the tweets etc., made private. I do know many offered advice and help, but it was ignored. At one point this morning, the owner apparently told a caller she thought everything would be ok and that she was going off to work. 

I hope the little filly has survived and the dam eventually accepts her.

Lizzie


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

I don't believe "letting nature take its course" should be done in this case. Especially just sitting back if the mare is intentionally trying to kill the foal. She was purposely bred and the owners should be responsible for what she produces...

Anyways, _not my foal, not my horse, not my call_


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## LoveStory10 (Oct 31, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I see a foal laying there. I agree with the ridiculous notion of calling this abuse.
> 
> When Zierra was born, Zena wouldn't let her nurse. She was a maiden Arab mare, and she kept kicking and biting at her. My grandpa has bred Arabians for decades and said it was common in maiden mares, the teats hurt and they just don't understand. We ended up having to twitch her hard, and my grandpa crawled underneath carrying a rather weak Zierra and helped her nurse. After that, we had zero problems and Zena was a dedicated mother.
> 
> Sometimes it's not always what you think. The vast majority of people would have assumed Zena was rejecting her foal, and we avoided crisis.


That's a beautiful story, and picture 

I fully agree, There's a mare that's kind of "mine", she's a project horse. Anyway, she was a WONDERFUL mom, she would nicker all the time to her foals, clean them really gently, and just be great... But her very first foal, she rejected. She pinned her ears back, and even lunged at the poor creature with her teeth bared. But after a while of human intervention, Silver finally accepted the foal, and turned into the wonderful mommy she was with all her other foals.

(I didn't witness any of this, just what I've been told and seen on her birthing videos)


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## Whisper22 (Jan 2, 2011)

FeatheredFeet said:


> Sorry to disagree with some here, but I do think it is a form of abuse, for the owner to watch two full days, as a baby is savaged by the mare. At the very least, it is abject irresponsibility.
> 
> I gather they finally sedated the mare, which seemed to have helped. The cameras are now turned off and many/most of the tweets etc., made private. I do know many offered advice and help, but it was ignored. At one point this morning, the owner apparently told a caller she thought everything would be ok and that she was going off to work.
> 
> ...


I am with you on this one. These people obviously had enough sense to put the camara in their to watch the mare foal in the first place. Now that the foal is out, if there are any other reasons for concern it should be taken care of. I think I read earlier that they thought the mare was biting at her baby because it wasn't nursing ENOUGH. That sounds like they were trying to pass off her aggressive behaviour as her being a good mom. They were just trying to explain it away and make excuses. It sounds like they might be doing something about it now though, so that's good.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Sorry, I am just not as eager to pass judgement on these mare owners. 

One, we're working with extremely limited information - just the mare stare video. We have no idea what was taking place behind the scenes, what advice they were being given, etc.

Two, dealing with a mare attempting to reject is incredibly frustrating and time consuming. It's difficult to balance the conflicting needs - of course it's best for the foal to stay with it's birth mother for a half dozen reasons, but at some point the risk of staying in with the agressive mare outweights the benefit. We don't know if these owners have a 1.) a nurse mare 2.) the ability to bottle feed (these is brutal - foals nurse every 2 - 3 hours round the clock.) 3.) the ability to separate the mare and foal. I suspect the folks rushing to judgemnt have never to deal with this type of issue or decision. 

It's very easy to second guess the decision after the fact and from a distance.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Very well put maura. You pretty much summed up what I wanted to say.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

Maura hit the nail on the head. Everyone is so quick to pass judgement when they don't know all the facts. Mare Stare can be an extremely useful tool, and be a big help in a lot of cases, but the other problem with it is that yes, everyone makes judgements about what they can AND CAN'T see. Add to that the fact that these people were more than likely flooded with dozens, if not hundreds, of "do-gooders" calling and bashing them for something they likely were trying their best to handle, and it's no wonder the camera was removed and everything set to private. In this case the "helpers" were probably doing more harm than good.


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## Arabrider (Mar 23, 2011)

So - does anyone know what happened to this baby? What other forums has this been posted on? 

Does anyone know what experience this owner has had?

Featheredfeet - do you think maybe that they didn't intend to breed this mare and they hoped the baby would be killed so that they didn't have to take care of it? Maybe they wanted everyone to see this too - so they paid to have it put on camera for everyone to view? 

I have read all the posts and it seems that only two people here are so ignorant that they assume they know more than what the owner knows. 

Nice website Featherfeet! 

Greyray - I have a mentally retarded child - I take a personal offense to this comment. 

It is true - somethings are not pleasant - and anyone with any experience with horses would know that sometimes things aren't as they seem - and mares are not always pleasant. I had a maiden mare once that didn't produce enough milk - so when baby wanted milk - often - it hurt and she didn't know what to do. She got angry. It wasn't that she didn't love her baby - but she was like an unprepared person that didn't have the skills to help the baby - when the baby needed something. But being knowlegeable about rejection - when a mare actually rejects a baby - and the human isn't aware of what is going on - that baby will be dead. Period. It doesn't take much for a mare to kill a baby. 

I won't pass judgment on an owner that cares enough to want to monitor the goings on in their barn - I assume they care about their animals. I am going to guess I don't know enough about it. I am not so high and mighty that I am better than they are. I feel fortunate that people are open enough to share their barns with us and allow us into their barn. If I don't like it - it is my perogative to not watch.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

I haven't heard anything more recently about the baby Arabrider. As I understand it from someone who had spoken to her, the lady purchased the mare already bred. By the situation as it unfolded, I gather the owner might not have had much experience with foaling. 

They have not said anything on their website with an update about the filly or even announced that it was born. I was told the filly bounced and played happily when new, but after the mare started savaging and chasing her, she sort of closed down and didn't play again. Just stood and swayed or was lying down. It really was heartbreaking to see her being so badly hurt.

I do hope the little filly survived. She was a beautiful little girl. Maybe there has been some updates on Arabian forums.

Lizzie


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Arabrider said:


> Greyray - I have a mentally retarded child - I take a personal offense to this comment.


I find it odd that you feel offended by Greyray's comment then refer to your own child as a "mentally retarded child". Last time I looked, the correct way to refer to a kid that has special needs is a "child with special needs".


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## Arabrider (Mar 23, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> I find it odd that you feel offended by Greyray's comment then refer to your own child as a "mentally retarded child". Last time I looked, the correct way to refer to a kid that has special needs is a "child with special needs".


 
You are right - I was trying to make a point - that the comment was very ugly - and you picked right up on it - it is ugly - and just cyber bullying.


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## Arabrider (Mar 23, 2011)

FeatheredFeet said:


> I haven't heard anything more recently about the baby Arabrider. As I understand it from someone who had spoken to her, the lady purchased the mare already bred. By the situation as it unfolded, I gather the owner might not have had much experience with foaling.
> 
> They have not said anything on their website with an update about the filly or even announced that it was born. I was told the filly bounced and played happily when new, but after the mare started savaging and chasing her, she sort of closed down and didn't play again. Just stood and swayed or was lying down. It really was heartbreaking to see her being so badly hurt.
> 
> ...


I guess not everyone updates their websites quickly - maybe something will be posted eventually. I haven't checked other websites - I saw that title on this one and thought the people here had seen other websites or forums by what the opening post said.


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## Nightengale (Mar 23, 2011)

Hello-

I have been watching this mare for going on 3 weeks. I do recall a vet coming out to the barn when the baby was born. When I called the owner a few days after the baby was born I spoke with her for about an hour. She told me that she got a sedative for the mare, and that the mare was correcting the baby for whatever reason. 
When I talked with her she told me she had been staying up all night in the barn in order to watch the mare and her new filly. So i think you all should get your facts straight before you criticize not only someone's judgement and ability to breed a horse but also their mental state! 
I think the retard comment was a bit much! Honestly, are you that juvenile that you would sink to calling someone retarded? What you really need to do is spend less time creeping on the mare and more time out living your own lives. Are your horses going through neglect while you are sitting inside watching this mare and her foal? Is that not abuse? If you are willing to declare that this is abuse when it is clearly not then you by your standards you are abusing your own horses. Maybe you should think about that the next time you sit down at the computer and harass someone else.


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## GreyRay (Jun 15, 2010)

^You just admitted that the owner sat up and WATCHED the foal get "corrected" for several days. Instead of doing the, what seems obvious(even to her at this point), thing, and sedating the mare for the foals safety. 
She sat and watched the foal get beat on for several days, and for what? An experement? To see what was 'really going on'? 
That doesnt make her sound any better, vet being there or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Texana (Mar 22, 2011)

Nothing came up. Said couldn't find site. What is this site your talking about. I wanna check it out.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Arabrider said:


> You are right - I was trying to make a point - that the comment was very ugly - and you picked right up on it - it is ugly - and just cyber bullying.


It's only ugly because people are morons. :roll: Seeing as retard means "to slow", I have never understood for even a second how "mentally retarded" became a politically incorrect statement. I guess it just joins the rank of a "black person" being politically incorrect as well?

The sentiment in which the comment was said was ugly, but I get really annoyed hearing people INVENT reasons to complain about the English language.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

Agreed, MM. God forbid someone not use the current PC term for things, regardless of the fact that what is now "inappropriate" might have BEEN the PC term a few years ago. Its just the population looking for things to be sensitive about so they can play the "whoa is me, I'm such a misunderstood minority" card...

Texana, the site is gone. Too many people were up in arms over what they THOUGHT they knew, so the owners took it down. I'm sure they were tired of the verbal abuse and harassment they were no doubt getting.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Actually, it is a psychological thing. I don't care about the label so much as referring to the child as a "mentally retarded child". You should never say that. At least have the courtesy to say a "child who is mentally retarded" then. Never ever put the illness before the child, it's just not right. Same as you shouldn't say 'black person' but instead say a 'person who is black'. Putting the 'condition' before the person/child implies that you are judging them based on that. It has nothing to do with political correctness or the subtleties of the English language, but instead to do with giving kids/people a fair go without judging them first.

MM I don't want to argue with you, so I will leave it at that. I hope my viewpoint comes across as clarifying rather than arguing


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I would like to make a suggestion. 

Going forward, I think that the only people who should be allowed to post criticism of this mare owner are those people that have had to make a decision about when to take a foal off of a potentially rejecting mare, and were then responsible for the subsequent care; either financially, or personally feeding the foal. 

Looking forward to talking to you about your experiences.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

Everyone is open to criticism. It happens everywhere. Whether its stories, photos, videos or opinions- _Its judged by someone, somewhere..._

Honestly, I have learned a few things thanks to this case.


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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

Arabrider said:


> So - does anyone know what happened to this baby? What other forums has this been posted on?
> 
> .


It appears mom and foal are fine.......mom didn't have much milk.....so baby was nursing lots making mom sore and frustrated .......the have her on medication and things seem fine now.........saw pics on marestare and they both look happy and healthy.

Super Nova


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