# Dressage Potential?



## Underfire05 (Jan 17, 2008)

And just because he's so cute and I had my camera today since I had to shoot a show lol.


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## Clementine (Sep 24, 2009)

He's a gorgoeus boy, but I don't really see him as a dressage horse, personally. He doesn't have enough angle to his croup and hocks to be able to tuck his butt under and push from behind. The combination of saddleseat and western is also a hard retraining project, and seeing as he's 16 already, by the time you got him retrained, he probably would need to be retired before you got into any really cool stuff.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I don't know about dressage, but your horse looks perfect for show hack to me. Beauty!


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Have to say that in that video he looks lame to me!


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

He's pretty, no doubt, but like Clementine said, he's going to have a hard time bringing his hocks underneath himself. In the video he was moving really short behind. 

I see him as an enjoyable Training and First Level project -- I'm of the view that learning that stuff is good for any horse -- but he will have more difficulty with some of the Second Level movements, as that's where true collection starts coming into play.


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## Underfire05 (Jan 17, 2008)

thanks everyone! that's exactly what I was looking for  I definitely understand that his age will limit him in his retraining and such, but he definitely doesn't act like he's 16 yet lol. the short movement you see in his behind is mostly due to the saddleseat training. he was taught head up, and butt underneath himself. short collected strides come from that, and those are the main things we are working on right now, getting him to understand its OK to reach  

faye, he isn't lame, I've had him thoroughly checked and that is mostly just him not understanding how to use his own body within reaching yet. I plan on having a chiropractor out soon too and doing some other things to help him out. he was never on any joint supplements or anything, which he has now been started on. 

Training/First works for me. I wanted to know if I had crazy big hopes for being able to manage 2nd lol. he's a looooong term retraining project, but definitely a fun one  

thank you all for your opinions! I really appreciate it! its always interesting to hear about the confirmation issues for dressage too, I am still learning to recognize most of those for certain disciplines. if we ever get in a dressage ring I'll be sure to share so you all get a kick out of him trying it LOL. he thinks quite highly of himself


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## BooBear (Mar 23, 2012)

Not so much of a comment on his dressage potential, but he really seems to be willing to work for you, and that's more important than most other factors in my mind. I also love the way his head stretches down when he _does_ stretch it down. =)


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Well, he's pretty! But not a dressage prospect sorry. In dressage, we want a horse with a good strong back, preferably quite compact as the horse will then find it much easier to swing through the back and 'sit' in collection. We also like a low set tail, and very good bend in the stifle and hock - the horse should move like an accordion behind, with the hind legs contracting and expanding as though the horse is 'folding' behind. 
Your horse has a very long, weak back with straight, camped out hind legs and an extremely high set tail - all of which lends itself to a horse that is going to really struggle to develop any kind of basic dressage work. He has zero carrying capacity in that hind end. 
As I said, he's very pretty, and he looks great for his age, but I wouldn't pin your hopes on him being a dressage horse


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## justxride97 (Jan 12, 2012)

He's beautiful! He really is! It's probably easier for you to look at him yourself than me through a screen. So look at this link- Conformation. That might give you an idea, based on his confo.


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## RoosHuman (Dec 27, 2011)

He seems like a gorgeous, sweet boy that would be a great all around mount.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

i think the two of you can have fun with the retraining part of this project and training/first level stuff he could do. although i must agree with katy (?) with his conformation he won't be able to do much higher work with any degree of ease. 

also, i don't mean to offend, but has anyone ever taught you to lunge?


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't agree with the others, about him not being a dressage horse.

You can do dressage with any type of horse. 

Though, The horse needs loads of potential to become a Grand Prix horse.
But for the lower levels? Any horse can do it. You might not win all the time, but you should be able to ride 
(shoulder in, half passes, lead changes, extended and collected gaits) and get nice % with any horse.

I don't know what movements 2nd level is. 

But, any horse can do shoulder in, lead changes, half passes, medium and extended trot and so on. 
Some horses are more talented than others, sure. But any horse can do it, it just might take a little longer, because they need more training. 

Heck, I've done it with my little pony and got 72%. 

Iv'e seen far less talented horses doing great as dressage horses, on a lower level - with shoulder in, half passes, lead changes, extended trot and so on. 

A horse don't need amazing gaits for things like half passes, lead changes or shoulder in, it's just basic work that any horse can do. 

And sure, you can get nice % on competitions as well, even if your horse don't have great movements. 
If the horse doing what it's told, is "on the bit", and has a nice rider guiding it through the dressage program, you should be able to get nice scores from the judges.

Not everything is about gaits. 

Around here we have ponies at 140 cm winning over warmblood dressage horses at 170 cm. 
Because they do it better, they are doing exactly what their rider tells them to do. They are on the bit and the rider and horse looks like a team working together.


For an exampel, this mare, my pony, she got really nice at doing dressage with training. 

The previous owners bought from a riding school, she was mean, refused to do anything. Her gaits where boring and so on.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

StellaIW said:


> I don't agree with the others, about him not being a dressage horse.
> 
> You can do dressage with any type of horse.
> 
> ...


You're right that it's not about the gaits as such - but they will pick you up extra collective marks at the end of a test and make a judge more inclined to give you a 7 rather than a 6 if the horse has a lovely, swinging gait vs a horse running around with a pogo stick trot. 
It's about the conformation. The OP's horse might have alright paces, but the conformation will make it very difficult to do much collected work. Sure, it can learn to extend it's gaits, it could do a shoulder in or half pass, but the quality of the work is not going to be very good, and the horse will be struggling. If a horse is built entirely wrong for dressage, it WILL struggle unless it has something else in its conformation to compensate. Some Grand Prix horses have a bit of a higher set tail and weak hind end, but they have a huge amount of bend and carrying capacity in their hocks, so they compensate. The OP's horse, has a very high set tail, a long back, straight hind end and very little bend in the hocks. The truth is that collection is going to be difficult, coupled with his age, there's a good chance of him breaking down if he is forced to work in collection for any period of time. He is going to have to work hugely harder than a well built horse.

Your pony is built very nicely, good strong hind end, lovely shoulder, good bending hocks that can sit and carry. She is built entirely different to the OP's horse


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

Dressage is for horses, not the other way around. You can always ride dressage on a horse - because dressage is not supposed to be about chasing high scores in an arena. 

It's supposed to be something good for the horse, a training method to help the horse become stronger and well muscled. If a horse is so 
wrongly built that you can't do the movements it normally do outside in the pasture, the horse should not be ridden at all. I acutally don't 
see the problem, the horse sure has it's flaws - if you're looking for the perfect dressage horse. 

But come on. We're not talking about the owner expecting the horse to be the next Totilas.

I've googled around. 2nd level is just simple and basic stuff! You don't need to pressure a horse in to extreme(Not even a lot of) collection to do those 
things. We are not talking about grand prix collection here or grand prix horses at all, we are talking about putting a horse in a normal "working frame". 

I was told the same thing about my horse. 

I was told, "It must be boring for you, having a horse that's not good enough."

I told them, that any horse, with right training, can do the basic work and get 70% in an arena. You just have to listen to the horse and work with it slow. 

If you pressure a horse into doing something it's not ready for, sure it will break. But that's not what's dressage is about. It's about working 
with your horse, to become the best you can. It takes time, lots and lots and lots of time. But if you work with the horse, and listen to it. I 
don't see why the horse should not be able to do simple and basic work. 

Dressage is supposed to be good for the horse, if you break a horse training dressage, you're doing it wrong.

I used to ride a horse, that had no dressage schooling until the owners bought him when he was 14. Now he's 28 years old, still going strong. 
He won his last national championship at the age of 25.


Perhaps the quality of the work will not be as good, if you did the same training with a horse that is bred to compete in dressage. 
But I don't agree that the horse will struggle and suffer. If it does. I repeat. You're doing it wrong.


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

Here we have a standardbred stallion. He is bred for trotting away as fast as he can. He has the wrong conformation for any type of collection, he's not even bred to be able to canter. 

He's not even bred to be ridden at all. With his conformation, he's supposed to be a driving horse.

But the owner worked with him, and he looks pretty happy doing dressage. 











He might look like a "dressage horse", but it's because the rider rode him in dressage. 
He got the right muscles to do collected work, even though his bloodlines and conformation said otherwise.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I'm not trying to be offensive in any way shape or form. I did say that basics, yes, any horse can do it. Look at any other post I've made on this forum and you'll see that. I have taken various breeds that were not built for dressage, into the dressage arena and done well, even placing at state championships and getting onto the squads. All I am trying to point out is that with conformation that will work against the horse, it is going to find it a hell of a lot harder than a horse built for the job. I have never had a horse break down due to any work that I've done with it, my last horse was an off the track thoroughbred that unfortunately I had to put to sleep, due to ongoing injuries on his time on the track, nothing to do with his work in my hands. BUT when a horse's conformation is going totally against what we ask it to do, eventually it's going to break down in some way, shape or form. If a warmblood bred in the purple for dressage needs a huge amount of care to keep it sound in the upper levels, it is pure anatomy and physics that dictate that a horse with its body working against its training is going to have problems, before a horse who's body supports it's training. You can build muscles in the right places, create a topline etc. but muscles do not change the basic conformation of the horse.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

That standie does NOT look happy. Look at that tail, it's swishing around all over the place. He's irritated or hurting. He's also not performing the movements correctly (those canter pirouettes are among the loosest I have ever seen) and actually looks lame to me. Is that just me or is someone else seeing that as well?

The pony on the other hand looks willing and relaxed, and LOOKS like a dressage pony conformationally.

The OP's horse, I wouldn't consider to be a good upper-level prospect. I think he would struggle at second level. First level I think he could do, but I'd be surprised if it did well in competition, unless OP can get those hind legs really working and driving him forward. What he is doing now is running around using his front legs to propel himself, and keeping up with his hinds.

MY horse is not made for dressage, he is trained up to around Novice level as far as I'm aware (some events at the level he used to compete do use Novice tests for the dressage) and he has some seriously awesome lengthen trot on him but he doesn't collect and sit on his hindquarter properly, either through not knowing how or not being able to, so he doesn't extend his trot, he just lengthens it. Same with canter. They need to be able to collect correctly and REALLY sit most of their weight into their hindquarter to be able to extend correctly, because the horse is using itself in a very similar way for collection and extension, it just takes longer steps in the extended trot.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

I agree, the standie looked uneven in the transitions. He looked sound otherwise, just grumpy with the wildly swishing tail. 

Pony was nice, though.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I am also of the opinion that second level (U.S.A. second level) is not too demanding for this horse. It will be more of a struggle than a horse with better dressage conformation, but it is not impossible for the horse to ride competently at that level. I find this more a matter of heart than anything else. Higher levels than that will demand much more collection which really will be pretty hard for this guy. Second level....sure, why not.

If you want to go that direction, do it. The horse's muscling will change a lot as the muscling it has now is not what he will need for this work. So, take it very slowly and methodically.


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## Chopsticks (Mar 11, 2012)

gorgeous boy, his longer back might impede him being a dressage star as others have said but that's no reason not to give it a try. 16 isn't old in my book if he's sound and you keep him fit, don't be discouraged and go for it!


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Agreed. ANY horse should be able to do Dressage half decently up to 2nd Level with some work. You may not get the best marks, you may not beat Warmbloods, but certainly any horse should be able to do those movements and I totally agree that if their flaws are so severe that they can't, they probably shouldn't be ridden. My coach firmly believes that any horse can do up to 2nd Level with some work, and place fairly consistently.

It's like saying my horse can't jump. EVERY horse can jump, some just do it better then others. Based on your purchasing a 16 year old Morgan and your goal being 2nd Level, it really doesn't sound like you're chasing ribbons or victory. You may not beat everyone at 2nd Level, but certainly the journey will be fun and very good for your horses discipline! 16 is young - he looks in perfect health, and should easily have another 10 years in him - at least.

The Dressage coach I used to train under trained an Arab that was completely unsuited to Dressage - somewhat downhill built, and with the weaker hind end, he REALLY struggled to get underneath himself. But he was a client's horse and she wanted big things, and she got to 3rd Level with him AND they placed. Granted, she's the best Dressage coach we have in the province, but it shows that with the proper guidance, virtually any horse CAN get there in the lower levels.

Best of luck - he is absolutely STUNNING and looks very willing.


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

Sorry, the word happy is wrong. I blame my bad english, I mess up sometimes.

What I meant was, the horse don't struggle with the movements so that it suffer.
It's hard for the horse, but I like to think that horses like a challenge. 

And it's not canter pirouettes. The rider is simply collection the canter on a small circle. 

It's a show, and the horse tries to show off a little bit more than it's ready for at the moment, the horse gets a bit unbalanced - causing it to look uneven. 
I know who the owner is, and the horse was fine. (About the tail, look at grand prix horses. Some horses just swish their tail even if there's nothing wrong with it.)


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Actually Stella, a lot of grand prix horses are not using themselves correctly. Modern dressage has strayed a long way from the ideals of yesteryear. Of course there are those of us who take the time and do it all correctly (your pony wouldn't work the way she does if YOU hadn't done it right), but so many, many grand prix horses are not working correctly with their hocks and hindquarters properly engaged. A lot of them have a four-beat trot and canter. And a lot of them are very stressed.

Did you know a study was done on horses and stereotypic behaviours like vices? And the study was looking at which discipline had the highest number of horses with a particular vice? I think the one they were looking at in particular was cribbing or windsucking. And they found that a very high percentage of upper-level dressage horses display behaviours related to the vices. A horse that windsucks either has ulcers, is incredibly bored, or is stressed.

I'm not saying dressage is bad. It's not, it's GOOD when it's done right. Unfortunately the art of good dressage seems to be less and less common, and seems to be getting less and less competitive against the flashy front-leg-movers that look so impressive but aren't doing much with their back ends.

Just look at the piaffe. The vast majority of grand prix dressage horses do not perform it in the correct manner, sitting back on their hocks and with good cadence and rhythm. Collection is where the training issues really come out. Any horse can trot on the spot (Mum had a downhill QH that could), but it takes real correct training to get a true piaffe.

But this thread is not the place for a debate about the whys and wherefores of the top levels of dressage, and as a rider, I'm not qualified to really comment, as I do not enjoy riding dressage. I do watch a lot of it, so as a spectator and a critic, I can speak of uncomfortable-looking horses that are not performing the movements correctly, but as a rider, I can't say I could do any better.

I would start a thread, but it's late, and I'm not the most qualified person in this thread to start such a discussion.


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

blue eyed pony said:


> Actually Stella, a lot of grand prix horses are not using themselves correctly. Modern dressage has strayed a long way from the ideals of yesteryear. Of course there are those of us who take the time and do it all correctly (your pony wouldn't work the way she does if YOU hadn't done it right), but so many, many grand prix horses are not working correctly with their hocks and hindquarters properly engaged. A lot of them have a four-beat trot and canter. And a lot of them are very stressed.
> 
> Did you know a study was done on horses and stereotypic behaviours like vices? And the study was looking at which discipline had the highest number of horses with a particular vice? I think the one they were looking at in particular was cribbing or windsucking. And they found that a very high percentage of upper-level dressage horses display behaviours related to the vices. A horse that windsucks either has ulcers, is incredibly bored, or is stressed.
> 
> ...


I agree with you.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Thankfully we seem to have people who practice good dressage more than the other kind here on HF! I was quite pleased when the FEI outlawed rollkur, even though there are a lot of people who think they allow it under a different name (LDR is not rollkur as there is no force involved, but it looks quite similar). I just don't think that dressage judges should be rewarding the front-leg-movers with good scores over the less flashy but more correct horses that are older and have been trained properly from the very beginning. It takes a lot more work to bring a horse on properly, and it's only right that that hard work should be recognised, but all too often it isn't.

The funniest thing I ever saw was a comment from a respected dressage judge that was something along the lines of, she didn't like baroque type horses because they were "all just leg movers and do nothing with their hind", when she was awarding 8's and 9's to the same thing from a warmblood.

But, shall we now move this to another thread so we don't completely swamp this one?


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

I do agree he is not the dressage type of horse. To me, he does not look lame. He has more of a hard movement when he walks in his back legs but that seems to be in Walkers, SaddleBreds, etc because they are built different than other horses.

He is very sweet and looks very willing


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