# Trophy Hunting - Why?



## celestejasper13 (May 16, 2014)

Recently in the news there has been an uproar about the death of Cecil the lion, killed by American trophy hunter Walter Palmer.

Cecil the lion's killer revealed as American dentist - Telegraph

Some facts I've found: African Lions are an endangered species, with less than 30,000 left in the wild, and trophy hunting contributing to a loss of 2% of the population each year. They face total extinction by 2050 at this rate, and with habitat loss etc, the death rate is likely to increase.

African Lions Face Extinction by 2050, Could Gain Endangered Species Act Protection - Extinction Countdown - Scientific American Blog Network

Rich American tourists kill hundreds of lions each year, and it’s all legal - The Washington Post

I was wondering if anybody could shed some light on the appeal of killing such a beautiful animal purely in the name of sport? 
I am fine with killing humanely a non-threatened animal if it serves us a functional purpose...However Cecil was shot with a crossbow and wounded for 40 excruciating hours before he was actually killed, after being baited and lured out of his protected habitat, for no reason other than for his head to be mounted on a rich dentist's wall... I find this infuriating. 
However I'm more than willing to discuss both sides and would be interested to hear some other opinions on the matter...What part of needless killing serves as entertainment?


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

It's just macho barbarism, and in no way can it even be considered "sport" IMHO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

The way I see it is if you're going to go hunt then go HUNT. Don't rely on a tour guide to lure animals into your path and keep them there. Don't just hunt for the head and don't just take a few peices and leave the corpse. 

If you're a true hunter then you wouldn't be going after endangered species..... me and my dad hunted all the time. We brought home deer, squirrle, rabbits, ducks. You name it we have probably bagged it at some point. However, we used EVERYTHING. We didn't just take the pelts or the heads, we took the meat, the pelt, the hooves, the bone, etc. Also if we just wounded an animal we spent the entire day going after it as quickly as possible to ensure a quick death or care. My dad used to say: "Only shoot if the shot is 99% guarenteed to hit the target and kill". 

But yeah, getting a tour guide and luring then wounding isn't hunting..... it's called being a cowered.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

The hunter (the dentist) is now the hunted. Karma is good.

People who do this should be locked up...


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

I have a coworker who saves up his money and goes trophy hunting every year. At first I was furious, the term just makes my blood boil. But one night after a training we were hanging out at a bar and some of us asked him to tell us more about his hunting escapades. Through his colorful stories I learned to appreciate some ethical trophy hunters. When done "right" they do not hunt endangered species, their money goes to conservation groups, they donate the meat to local villages, and they only take good, clean shots. That is how he does it. I learned from him that trophy hunting has been tarnished by scum like this dentist, but that most are not like that. A few bad apples spoil the bunch, sadly.
Will it ever be something I do, probably not, I am content hunting locally to fill our freezer, but I have to say, he did open my eyes to another side that isn't portrayed in the media.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

celestejasper13 said:


> I was wondering if anybody could shed some light on the appeal of killing such a beautiful animal purely in the name of sport?


Vegans don't agree with me that I eat meat and other animal products. How do I explain to them that I like it?

Pro-Choice people don't agree with me that I am against abortion. How do I explain to them my views?

Etc. 

If someone wants to go trophy hunting, more power to them. No, some people may not "agree" with it, but there are many aspects of life where people do not agree. 

I'm sure there are many things you do that others don't agree with. It's just life. 

My husband is a very avid hunter and his big dream someday is to go to Africa and shoot a lion. He finds it thrilling that your target could actually hunt you back, and that there are other dangerous things around (water buffalo, black mamba, etc) that could kill you. It's an accomplished feeling when you can successfully get a trophy animal. 




celestejasper13 said:


> I am fine with killing humanely a non-threatened animal if it serves us a functional purpose.


Have you forgotten how much MONEY is raised by allowing people to shoot threatened animals? While many people are crucifying this dentist for shooting Cecil, they have forgotten how many thousands upon thousands of dollars he has already given to preserves and refugees through charity fundraisers that auction off tags to shoot a select number of animals. (Obviously, if he's done something wrong, he needs to face the legal consequences of that decision, but this thread isn't about that.)

By allowing certain numbers of these protected animals to be hunted, they can raise extraordinary amount of money. 



celestejasper13 said:


> However Cecil was shot with a crossbow and wounded for 40 excruciating hours before he was actually killed


Have you hunted before?

Unfortunately, when you shoot, it's not always a kill shot. Sometimes you have to track the animal and then finish it when you find it. 



celestejasper13 said:


> after being baited


As far as baiting goes, it is common practice to bait an animal when you are bow hunting. 

Obviously if they intentially tried to bait specifically Cecil, that's another story. But just on baiting itself, baiting is pretty normal for certain aspects of hunting.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Remali said:


> The hunter (the dentist) is now the hunted. Karma is good.
> 
> People who do this should be locked up...


How about we wait until he has actually been CONVICTED of a crime?

I find it shameful that this dentist's life (and his family) has been *ruined *when he hasn't even been charged with anything yet. Whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?

If he did something wrong, then yes, he should face the consequences of that. 

Heck, Adrian Peterson beat his kid yet he can still play football. This dentist made (supposedly) a mistake while hunting, and now he can't even work anymore b/c the public has ruined his practice? That's not fair. 


But I digress. This thread wasn't supposed to be about that.


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## celestejasper13 (May 16, 2014)

beau159 said:


> I'm sure there are many things you do that others don't agree with. It's just life.



Although I agree and understand most of the points you made, and am glad you posted, I do not see the argument that 'people will always disagree' as a means of excusing certain behaviours. 
People who are doing something obviously wrong that people are against cannot justify their actions by saying simple 'there are many things people don't agree with'.

The money issue makes it tricky - although I understand the benefits, I still think it is a shame that endangered animals are paying the price for the incompetence of these countries' governments when it comes to providing for their people.

Saying that all hunting involves shots that injure but dont kill does not make it any more justifiable in my opinion - as an earlier commenter put it, dont shoot unless you're really really sure you can humanely kill.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

beau159 said:


> How about we wait until he has actually been CONVICTED of a crime?
> 
> I find it shameful that this dentist's life (and his family) has been *ruined *when he hasn't even been charged with anything yet. *Whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?*
> 
> ...


On a side note...

since this occurred outside of the US, and therefore its jurisdiction, that may not apply. 

Regarding how people in the US view him, despite it might not be seen as respectful or friendly by some it's of their own right to post reviews and refuse to go to a business.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

beau159 said:


> How about we wait until he has actually been CONVICTED of a crime?
> 
> I find it shameful that this dentist's life (and his family) has been *ruined *when he hasn't even been charged with anything yet. Whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?
> 
> ...


The two men who were with him on the illegal hunt have been arrested already..... only reason he has not been arrested is because he _took off_ and fled, and now authorities cannot find him. He basically has split and is on the run. By the way, FWIW, he has been caught poaching before (in my state), and also has a sexual harassment history. Still want to defend the monster?

The lion also had on a radio collar that could easily be seen.

I am only about an hour from where this monster lives, so it is on our news here a lot. It was no mistake... it was intentional.... seems he has a history of doing this.

http://heavy.com/news/2015/07/walte...os-video-cubs-theo-bronchorst-trymore-ndlovu/


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Remali said:


> Still want to defend the monster?


I'm not defending him. 

It just appalls me that there are people in this world who are giving the dentist *death threats* over a poaching incident.

If he committed a crime, then yes he should pay for it. 

Should he be locked up in prison for killing an animal? Maybe, maybe not, but that's for a judge or jury to decide, and I'm neither. 

Should he be fined heavily or have his hunting priviliges taken away? Probably. 

But death threats?
And taking away all ability to him to make a living for his family?
America has gone overboard.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

celestejasper13 said:


> Although I agree and understand most of the points you made, and am glad you posted, I do not see the argument that 'people will always disagree' as a means of excusing certain behaviours.
> People who are doing something obviously wrong that people are against cannot justify their actions by saying simple 'there are many things people don't agree with'.


The abortion topic is a perfect example. 

I think it's _murder _once the sperm meets the egg, because that is the beginning of life. Abortion is obviously wrong. 

......And there would be tons of people who would _disagree_ with me.

Who's to say what is "obviously wrong"?



celestejasper13 said:


> Saying that all hunting involves shots that injure but dont kill does not make it any more justifiable in my opinion - as an earlier commenter put it, dont shoot unless you're really really sure you can humanely kill.


And how do you know the dentist didn't think he HAD a kill shot? Maybe he was SURE he did, but miscalculated. 

It wouldn't be the first time a hunter thought they had a good clean shot .... and didn't.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

I agree he should not get death threats. But, as for his business, well, he should have thought of that when he poached, not once, but what appears to now be a few times. And, I don't think the sexual harassment in the past will help his business, he has only himself to blame for the decline of his business..... especially as the sexual harassment was aimed at one of his employees, and he ended up paying a settlement and having to take ethics training. He ruined his business all on his own.

What does having a clean kill shot have to do with anything... he was poaching, the lion was wearing a radio collar, the lion was in a sanctuary.


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

I don't think he should be getting death threats, his business is another story. When you are in any profession, you have to know your behavior can efeect that business. Especially a doctor who people trust for sound judgement. People have the right to remove their business from a man who spends the proceeds killing lion, lepord and rhinos. Not to mention found to have lied to authorities. Do I really even have a cavity? Do I really need a root canal? - fair questions for his patients to be thinking.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

You have to separate the incidents - the guides who were with this dentist have been arrested, the lion was a very rare specimen and it would appear that they lured it from the reservation. It doesn't sound as if they were very reputable so I have a sneaky feeling that whatever cash he handed over didn't go to any charitable institutions
Yes its quite right that even the best marksmen sometimes miss - but a good hunter will always try to track down that animal and finish the job. The object is to kill quickly and humanely to cause the least amount of suffering
I have no understanding of anyone wanting to hunt just to have a head to stick on their wall or something to stuff and sit on the shelves but as long as they do it legally, correctly and don't hunt a species out of existence then 'whatever rocks they're boat' I suppose


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think the concept of trophy hunting is rather odd, especially when the animal you kill is not of your cultural background. I mean, for a Masai man to hunt and kill a lion means something, because the Lion is in his mythology, he knows and sees them regularly, they sometimes kill his people or his cattle, he gains in esteem in the eyes of his tribe. it's meaningful. for him to go kill a walrus in not.

for a dentist from the midwest to go and kill a lion, half a world away, is , in my mind, mearly a reflection of his selfishness, that money buys all.

I do understand that trophy hunting brings money to these poor countries, and in theory, some of it goes for animal conservation. however, a great deal more comes from tourists who wanted to see Cecil lolling on the savanah, enjoying HIS life.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

He was also using a bow, so he had to be closer to the lion than you would be if you had a gun.... so clearly he was able to see the lion had a radio collar on.

Will be interesting when authorities in the States find him.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Heard a reporter who is in Zimbabwe say the sentiment of the people there is along the lines of: The crooked guides got caught. We have bigger problems in this country like lack of water, electricity, medicine, education. And no one notices our country until a lion is killed and the rich send money to protect lions.

Most of us are guilty of narrow vision and think in terms of "first world problems."


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

I've been hearing the term "first world problems" a lot lately, and while it might be a good term to make you more mindful about the reality of your problems, unfortunately for most people it stops there. 

Shooting endangered animals is an issue that effects everyone. I don't see how this man, or anyone else, has the right to shoot an animal for their own selfish desires that negatively impacts on me, on my friends, on my country, on the world. The way the lion population is heading, it will mean that my future children, or future grand children, will grow up in a world without wild lions. And who knows what other animal. It means that the next time a university wants to study an endangered species that it's going to be that much harder to receive funding. 

Yes, trophy hunting might bring in tourism for these areas that desperately need industry. In this case it needs to be sustainable, and shooting an endangered animal is not part of a sustainability model. Once these species stop being there, their industry is going stop. Funding for local animal projects will stop and they will be in a worse situation. 

I think this man's employment should be affected. He is an educated man, and he certainly has the ability to research and hire ethical guides, which he did not. We cannot rely on laws and courts to dictate ethics because the reality is that they don't have that ability. The law is not always inline with morality or ethics and it doesn't claim to be. People should choose where their money goes, and if they don't want it to go to him then it shouldn't. 

Ethical law is often two steps behind society. I know in Australia we had this animal called the Tasmanian Tiger that, after colonisation, was hunted for sport. In the end it became endangered and by the time laws passed to protect them there was only one left, and it died shortly after. It's a guilt carried by a nation. To this day, there are projects trying to recreate DNA in order to clone this animal, and bring it back to life. 

I think as humans we have a responsibility to maintain species and ecosystems on this earth. We do not have a responsibility to pander to some men's vanity. 

Perhaps there are more pressing and dire issues out there, but it doesn't stop this one being important.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Saskia said:


> Perhaps there are more pressing and dire issues out there, but it doesn't stop this one being important.


I agree this issue is important. But it seems like it may be a case of criminal guides, too. Not just greedy rich dude wants a unique trophy at any cost. Though we'll never hear it if he was duped. 

I can certainly understand the disbelief of a desperate people who find out that wealthy Americans will donate to save a lion when the people living there are in danger of death themselves.

Way to make China look good. 

There are people in Zimbabwe who are probably worried your children will grown up without their children in the world.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

boots said:


> There are people in Zimbabwe who are probably worried your children will grown up without their children in the world.


True. 

Its hard though, to know what to do. No one has the answers for people living in absolute poverty. We talk about first world problems but turned around what can people here in the first world do about them? People don't know. I don't know. Donate money? Doesn't get there, doesn't make a difference. We've poured millions into foreign aid, personal donations, people go over there and volunteer and I'm sure it helps some people, and maybe that's enough. But it's not fixing a system that perpetuates poverty. People have been trying to fix this problem for so many years and we might not talk about it, but everyone knows it there. Sometimes it feels so futile. 

But Lions... in some way it seems more possible that we could save Lions rather than our own people. Or horses.


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## Purplelady (Dec 6, 2014)

Hello . I say that the Man that killed the Lion was WRONG . I know there are some that might say I am wrong but no he was . If he was my Dentest I would not be going back to him . He should get done for what he did . Purplelady
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Remali said:


> He was also using a bow, so he had to be closer to the lion than you would be if you had a gun.... so clearly he was able to see the lion had a radio collar on.


On a hunting topic, many trophy hunts DO have you shoot an animal that has a radio collar on.

One of the hunts my husband has been applying for for years (but hasn't got yet as they draw so few) is a big horn sheep hunt. They take you out to the herd, and point at the one you are supposed to shoot. They all have radio collars on.

And once again, I'm not defending the dentist but rather for discussion purposes .... where is this radio collar we should so easily be able to see? I don't see it. 













Remali said:


> What does having a clean kill shot have to do with anything... he was poaching, the lion was wearing a radio collar, the lion was in a sanctuary.


I'm talking in generalities. I see people upset that the lion wasn't killed _instantly_, and I was simply pointing out that unfortunately even with best efforts, not all shots are kill shots.

Often times, even when you do get a good "kill shot", the animal can still run for miles due to the adrenaline.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

I read an article that the guide and land owner are out on bond of only $1,000 each. With a no big deal, happens all the time attitude from them, the community, and the officials.

Also just a note regarding innocent until proven guilty: Guilty can be found innocent. It doesn't make them innocent, it just makes them found innocent.

cough cough OJ cough cough

Even if only once in a while in very publicized cases, I believe much more often in cases that are not noticed by the majority of the people.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

These lions and other animals that the people of wealthier countries donate money to save are also a tourist attraction that is a source of income for many local people who work on the reservations in some capacity and in the tourist industry there as a whole - the lion population is one that's on the brink of the endangered list - as the attractions that draw the tourists decline so will the desire to go to these countries


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

anndankev said:


> Even if only once in a while in very publicized cases, I believe much more often in cases that are not noticed by the majority of the people.


On that note, I love how America is outraged by a dead lion but no one's hardly said a word about videos that have surfaced where doctors are selling individual body parts of people for money.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

OMG, really? I don't watch the news much, actually most of it I get here on HF.

Have heard of morgue workers doing the same though.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I admit that I don't have an interest in it, but who are WE to tell people in African countries how to preserve THEIR wild animals. READ:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/18/opinion/saving-lions-by-killing-them.html?_r=0
Also, that girl that was crucified for wild animal hunting last year posted may pictures of animals that she had shot with a tranquilizer for the Vets to treat.
You gotta stop being so reactionary. It makes you into that horse that nobody can control.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

The average lifespan of a wild lion is 10-16 years. This lion was already 13. It wouldn't be long before a younger lion either killed him or beat him up & took over his pride. He wouldn't last long alone.
That doesn't mean he should have died the way he did especially if it was done illegally. 

We have canned hunts right here in the USA. Lions too. A friend told me about a hunt he signed up for to get some sort of deer, can't remember exactly what.
He thought he was paying for a guide who knew the countryside. It turned out to be a ranch that raised these deer & it was predetermined which ones would die. When the deer got spooked they ran into a barn where they had been getting fed & someone went in to chase them back out at which time the hunters were supposed to shoot them. My friend & his friends were shocked & disgusted & refused to take any shots.
Not very sporting. Few care.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm sure the outrage over this lion is that he was 'protected' and was (allegedly) lured off the reserve so the dentist could shoot him. He was an old lion but still fertile and he was also a rarer type of lion, to top that he was so used to people that he wouldn't have feared the person with the bow and probably stood there wondering what was going to happen next
The person in the link that Corporal posted is right in as much as hunters do pay well and that boosts the economy but he's optimistic about lion numbers and could be putting that money in their hands now above the chances of there being many lions still there in the future as numbers have been declining at an alarmingly rapid rate over the past 20 years and if continues to drop at that rate there will be no way back
African Lion Populations Drop 42 Percent in Past 21 Years - Extinction Countdown - Scientific American Blog Network
I don't know what the answer to that Continent's problems are but I do know that poverty there is at a level that we have no concept of at all
We may have problems in the US and other western world countries but we also have a huge amount of wealth and an established infrastructure.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

beau159 said:


> On that note, I love how America is outraged by a dead lion but no one's hardly said a word about videos that have surfaced where doctors are selling individual body parts of people for money.


People can be outraged over _both_... and, they are.

I must have missed your thread about the doctors...


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I am inclined to agree with Beau. Through th media people have become the judge and th jury and declarations of 'hang 'em high' abound making life no better than 200 years ago.

The fact that this man paid to go out and shoot a lion, or any other wild animal, is perfectly legal. The money goes to conservation and wardens trying to protect the elephant and rhino from poachers.

It was wrong the lion was lured from the preserve but did the man know this or that he was collared?

The fact that the animal was injured and finally killed by trackers I find more abhorrent than a lion being shot and killed outright.

Stop being so judgemental when few of the facts are known.


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## Tracer (Sep 16, 2012)

So many people are claiming that the only reason this man is receiving death threats is because the lion was 'famous'. Apparently, they forget the dozens of other people in recent years who have received death threats for posting photographs of themselves with trophy animals, most notably the 'beautiful girls'.

The uproar over this is ridiculous, but that being said, I'm on the fence.

IF this man knew exactly what he was doing, he deserves much of what he is receiving.

BUT.

I believe I've seen an article that voiced the chance that he didn't know. That he was mislead by his guides. Essentially, if this is true, this man is being wrongly crucified.

I feel for his family, who almost certainly had nothing to do with this event, but their lives are basically ruined due to association. I found myself thinking last night about how ironic (not entirely sure that's the right word for this situation) it is that the world preaches about the horrors of cyber-bullying... and yet they do things like this, which is no different.

As for the original question, the appeal of trophy hunting, I believe much of it lies within the human ego. In my (entirely unprofessional) opinion, trophy hunting should be a matter of skill. There is no skill apart from having good aim in guided hunts such as the one at the centre of this debacle. If the dentist had hunted down a lion on his own, waited for the opportune moment to take his shot, there perhaps would have been some 'glory' in it. Instead, according to the story, all he had to do was pull a trigger (or whatever a crossbow has). Not just him though, almost everyone who hunts in similar situations.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There is the fact that he'd done something similar before that seemed to relate to shooting a bear that was on protected land so I think that's weighed against him
The business of him paying off the employee out of court that he sexually harassed is a different case entirely but still not helping him
Whether or not he's knew where the lion came from depends on whether or not he was with the guides when they lured it off the reserve. It was also well known in the area and a very distinctive colour


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

We get American hunters coming for moose. They have to stay in a licensed camp, pay big dollars for a moose tag, pay big dollars to stay in the camp and pay the guide. Hunting areas are broken up into zones and it is up to the camp to put the hunters in the correct zone. As often happens, the guides, possible under orders from the camp or of their own volitions, got the hunters their moose except not in the zones that were open to hunting. Camp paid heavy fines, guides paid heavy fines as did the hunters who can't return to Canada for hunting. It didn't seem right as they'd paid others to help them with the hunt, not break the law. I've met hunters who love the hunt yet never shoot anything.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

I hope this is not true. If it is, maybe it's time to arm the people who work at the National Park against these illegal hunters.

Cecil the lionâ€™s brother Jericho shot dead in Zimbabwe - NY Daily News


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Majority of th game wardens are armed!

I have always Foxhunted since I was a small child. My enjoyment came from the thrill of trying to follow the route hounds took, then it was more watching how hounds worked, which hound could be relied on to pick up a good scent, watching them seeking a line. 

When they did catch a fox I was pleased for the hounds to be rewarded never sorry for the fox because if he was caught then there was probably something wrong with it. 

I love watching a greyhound course a hare. The speed it runs at, the turns as it follows the hare. Again a fit hare will get away, if not then the dog is rewarded for its effort. 

I have 'trophies' in the mask of three foxes, mounted, somewhere there are also a few brushes (tails) and my first fox pad and the pride I felt at being blooded. 

Does this make me a barbarian and worthy of being pursued by a mob? I think not. What hunting taught me was appreciation of wildlife amd of the countryside.

I also would hunt rats with terriers, this was considered a service yet does a rat have less right to live than anything else?


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Foxhunter said:


> Majority of th game wardens are armed!
> 
> I have always Foxhunted since I was a small child. My enjoyment came from the thrill of trying to follow the route hounds took, then it was more watching how hounds worked, which hound could be relied on to pick up a good scent, watching them seeking a line.
> 
> ...



I don't see *any* comparison, at all... how can you compare? A poacher is not a hunter... a poacher kills _illegally_. Huge difference.

Although, I will add, I am not a fan of hunting. But, there IS a major difference between poaching and hunting.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

This man was not poaching, he paid for the right to shoot a lion with a bow - which is legal in Zimbabwe. 

I am not saying that he didn't know what was going on, he will swear that he didn't amd I am not defending his actions.

How would he have known if he was in the reserve or not? They do not exactly have the land fenced off. 
Did he know the lion was collared? This is doubtful with the mane a mature lion has it would have been hidden.

Zimbabwe is a very poor nation since Mugabwe came to power. Corruption is rife and poverty great. These trackers are not going to be against earning a few dollars on the side and providing a good specimen in the hopes of a good tip which would probably feed their extended family for the year. 

Lion numbers might well be down, this is going to happen with man going more and more into the wilderness just to survive. 

Let's face it man has always wanted the ability to provide for his family and thousands of years of 'civilisation' is not going to stop something so deeply ingrained when given the chance.

It all seems so hypocritical that Americans are so up in arms. The USA is the only country that when the shooting season is open, people have to cover their stock in fluorescent covers.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Foxhunter said:


> This man was not poaching, he paid for the right to shoot a lion with a bow - which is legal in Zimbabwe.
> 
> I am not saying that he didn't know what was going on, he will swear that he didn't amd I am not defending his actions.
> 
> ...


Actually, no. The dentist killed Cecil illegally. The cat was inside a protected park, with a radio collar, and they lured the lion out of the park....shot him, cut off his head, skinned him, and then tried to hide the radio collar. He was poaching, and authorities now have arrested his cohorts and are looking for him.

This dentist has poached before... once right here in my state where I live. He pleaded guilty to that. Walter has quite the history....
http://www.startribune.com/what-we-know-about-minnesota-dentist-walter-palmer/318943371/


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

To lure the lion out takes more than one day. Usually bait is set out for a number of days prior to make sure it keeps coming to it. The hunter may be completely unaware of this happening. Lion comes looking for bait that is not there and the hunter gets his animal. _I've seen this many times with bear hunting. (sorry about italics, couldn't get rid of them)_


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Saddlebag said:


> To lure the lion out takes more than one day. Usually bait is set out for a number of days prior to make sure it keeps coming to it. The hunter may be completely unaware of this happening. Lion comes looking for bait that is not there and the hunter gets his animal. _I've seen this many times with bear hunting. (sorry about italics, couldn't get rid of them)_


It didn't take more than one day.
Who in their right mind defends a _poacher_?!! He was not bear hunting... FWIW I have friends who hunt, bear hunt, deer hunt, etc., and also teach hunting skills and have their own TV hunting show. The dentist _baited a truck with meat_ to lure Cecil out of the park.

Quote: "Yesterday, we learned that American dentist Walter James Palmer paid $50,000 to kill a male lion in Zimbabwe, so he could mount the lion’s head on his wall in Minnesota. Cecil was a major tourist draw at Zimbabwe’s Hwange National Park and had been outfitted with a GPS collar by Oxford University for research several years ago. Palmer hired two guides to organize the hunt and assist him in baiting Cecil, a thirteen-year old male lion, from his refuge in Hwange National Park. The three men allegedly tied a dead carcass to the back of a vehicle to lure Cecil out of the Park where Palmer shot and wounded Cecil with his crossbow.












An avid big game hunter of renowned marksmanship, Palmer should have been able to kill Cecil with a single blow. Instead, the men allowed Cecil to escape, so they could track him for more than 40 hours. Eventually, Palmer decided to end the game by fatally shooting Cecil with a firearm. Palmer posed for photographs over Cecil’s carcass before decapitating and skinning him. His bones and flesh were then left for scavengers in the wilderness."


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## bkylem (Sep 21, 2013)

celestejasper13 said:


> Recently in the news there has been an uproar about the death of Cecil the lion, killed by American trophy hunter Walter Palmer.
> 
> Cecil the lion's killer revealed as American dentist - Telegraph
> 
> ...


I believe the the precise word is INSECURITY. The act somehow serves to validate their manhood. I would have loved to see the dentist go one-on-one with the lion without a weapon or guides.


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## Tracer (Sep 16, 2012)

Remali said:


> The dentist _baited a truck with meat_ to lure Cecil out of the park...... The three men *allegedly* tied a dead carcass to the back of a vehicle to lure Cecil out of the Park where Palmer shot and wounded Cecil with his crossbow.... Instead, the men allowed Cecil to escape, so they could track him for more than 40 hours. Eventually, Palmer decided to end the game by fatally shooting Cecil with a firearm.


A whole lot of assumptions there. The key word is right there in the excerpt you posted - *allegedly*. As in, there is no proof. You, and many like you, are essentially blindly accusing this man of something he may not have done. I'm not talking about killing Cecil, I'm talking about the alleged baiting, the 'allowing him to escape'. It's ridiculous.

NO ONE is defending this man from the fact that he killed a lion that shouldn't have been killed. But, without any ounce of proof, they are saying he is EVIL. That he did it all ON PURPOSE. What, it's not possible that he missed (god forbid!) the kill shot and, in the time it took to reload, the lion escaped? Instead, he *had* to have let him escape, because this man is *evil*.

Come on. No one is saying this whole thing is wrong, but persecuting this man when the wrongdoing may not have been his is most definitely wrong.

The blame lies more with his guides, who most definitely knew that what they were doing was illegal.

Oh, and do note how so far, no one has managed to decisively say that the radio collar was visible.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

I find it sad, and shocking, that some people think poaching is OK.... radio collar or not, this was blatant poaching. I don't think I will be posting much more on this... I don't care to argue with close-minded people who think illegal hunting is ok. Keep those heads in the sand...


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

There are a lot of variables that may or may not be true. But going by the facts that are known, its still despicable. 

1- he shot a lion. A species he knew was in trouble. 

2- he did it with a weapon that he knew wasn't going to produce a quick kill. He knew there would be suffering. This suggests he wanted to see it.

3- where the lion was standing, on protected land or not is irrelevant. The lion was standing. When an animals best defense, fear and flight, is taken away from them they are no longer " game" they are not being hunted.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

This appalls me. xD This, in my mind, is just some sick person flexing his masculinity. And, frankly, I'm glad it came to bite him in the butt.

I can't get in the mindset of someone who wants to kill for the sake of killing. 
I can't get in the mindset of someone who set out with a goal of killing an endangered animal.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

bkylem said:


> I believe the the precise word is INSECURITY. The act somehow serves to validate their manhood. I would have loved to see the dentist go one-on-one with the lion without a weapon or guides.



plenty of big game hunters are women. it is not only men that have the urge to triumph over a large animal. if I divorce myself from the ethical thoughts of using bait, blinds, high power weapons and such, I can see how it would be exciting to track and kill a powerful animal, one that you admire and respect for it's tremedously more powerful body. it is something that humans have always done. it's in our DNA. 
I can IMAGINE it being very thrilling. 

But, there are lots of human urges that we don't follow, due to having another human quality; ethics.

it is now questionable how ethical it is to allow the very wealthy to go and "take" large and increasingly rare animals just becuase they have the urge and the money.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I would imagine that there are very few lions in that area that are 'free' because of the big decline in numbers, he paid the guides a lot of money to get him one and he probably didn't care where it came from. The guides were local so even if they hadn't lured it off (which evidence suggests they did) they should have recognized it
The lion was 'poached' without a doubt, him knowing they'd poached it is another matter but my money is on that he did

I've also fox hunted in the UK since I was young and I worked on a hunting yard for a long time but foxes in the UK are far from being in decline and despite what the law classes them as they are 'vermin' and a nuisance. For their own well being they need culling and hounds do a fast efficient job of dispatching one
I don't approve of breeding foxes for hunting and I don't approve of moving foxes from a non hunting area to a hunting one because that crosses the line between hunting to kill just for sport and hunting to kill for to manage the fox population


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Going slightly away from Cecil - foxes are getting a real problem in towns and cities to the point where small children have been attacked in their homes at night.

The RSPCA will live trap them and remove them to the countryside and release them.

One evening a friend called me to go over to another friends farm. It was about 10 p.m. All around the barns where lights were left on for the dairy cows were about fifteen foxes. They had been dumped. Being town grown they made for the lights. Hadn't a clue about hunting for food - no takeaway left overs to be found. Five people shot them in less than three minutes!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

why is the fox population out of balance in Britain? is it that the preditor that would normally have kept their numbers down (what woudl that be?) is gone, or is it that their food source is up?

in the US the coyote population is booming, and some say it is in part because while there used to be wolves in all parts of the US, now they are in very limited locales, and wolves kill coyotes, or at least keep them scared, and away.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Tinyliny - Yes no natural predator of the fox in the UK - been like that for ages though, they have a good survival rate when breeding and clever scavengers, they have no fear about raiding household bins (trash) and eat wild berries and bugs as well as anything they catch. If ever rabies got into the UK they would be a massive problem. Coyotes here the same but there must have been a cull in the last few years because I've not had any around the place for a while - but that's removed the natural predator of the deer and we're over run with them again. At least the coyote's didn't eat my garden!!

So back to Cecil
It sounds as if Zimbabwe are wanting the US to extradite him to face charges of illegal hunting to make an example of him to try to deter future poaching 
QUOTE:
From here
Cecil the lion: Zimbabwe asks U.S. to extradite dentist - CNN.com
_Walter Palmer "had a well-orchestrated agenda which would tarnish the image of Zimbabwe and further strain the relationship between Zimbabwe and the USA," Muchinguri said. _
_Palmer, his professional hunter guide, and the owner of the land where the hunt took place are accused of an illegal hunt under the country's Parks and Wildlife Act, Muchinguri said in __a statement._
_Specifically, Palmer is accused of financing an illegal hunt, and he and the professional hunter are also accused of illegally using a crossbow "to conceal the illegal hunt" so they wouldn't alert rangers on patrol, she said._
_The landowner allegedly allowed the hunt to be conducted without a lion quota and without the necessary permit, Muchinguri said._





 _"The professional hunter, client and land owner were therefore all engaged in poaching of the lion," she said._
_She added, "This must be condemned in the strongest possible terms by all genuine, animal-loving conservationists who believe in sustainable utilization of natural resources."_

The BBC photos in this link show how fearless he was of vehicles and would run behind them - also one showing how large and visible his collar was
_In pictures: Zimbabwe's Cecil the lion - BBC News_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

To those of you who have never used a crossbow, they fire a bolt with as much killing power as a bullet, but it must be used at a closer range than the high powered rifle. This greatly increases the element of danger to the hunter.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Remali said:


> so he could mount the lion’s head on his wall in Minnesota.
> 
> ....
> 
> ...


This makes zero sense to me.

If Palmer wanted the lion's head on his wall, why would he miss his kill shot on purpose, and risk losing the lion when he runs off?

Sometimes the media likes to make things sound more exciting than they are, when in reality, it doesn't chive with common sense.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> To those of you who have never used a crossbow, they fire a bolt with as much killing power as a bullet, but it must be used at a closer range than the high powered rifle. This greatly increases the element of danger to the hunter.


The people who accompany these bow hunters who shoot dangerous animals always carry a high powered rifle. In this case Palmer used one to shoot the lion when they eventually tracked it down after his failed Compound bow attempt.
My youngest son was a UK Junior champion archer, he preferred a Recurve bow for target shooting which takes a lot more skill but would use a Compound for any live shooting
How accurate you are over a long range depends on how good you are, how good the bow is and the weather conditions


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

The fact that in that picture the collar is visible it isn't in any of the others. If the shooting took place at night then I doubt it would be seen.


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

For me bows just aren't sufficient for large animals. 330-350 fps just doesn't cut it for me. I can't link but the is a video on YouTube called " the tortuous cries of the black bear" I just don't see that after watching it, anyone could think that this type of trophy hunting is okay.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

According to the CNN latest he was shooting on land that wasn't licensed for lion shooting so not seeing the collar was irrelevant as whatever lion he'd shot on it would have been illegal. 
Given the money he throws around at this 'game' and that he sees himself as a 'professional' who wants success he'd own some good night vision goggles


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## jacklance (Aug 4, 2015)

RIP Poor soul....


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I doubt very much of any 'rules' stand firm in Zimbabwe, what Mugabe's says and does is two entirely different things which is probably why this man decided to go hunting there.

I am certain that he was not ignorant to the facts of the laws or the fact that he could easily circumnavigate them. 

It all seems rather farcical as to what happened, the truth will never be known as what happened will be changed to protect the guides, probably many times. 

All very suspicious - who reported the lion had been lured from the reserve? Certainly not the people doing it. 

Whatever happened it is not up to the average Joe Blogs to be judge and jury. They can only do that by refusing to go to his dental practise.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

https://www.ringoffireradio.com/201...&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Know what, I have a problem with the conservation people who put radio collars on animals. They create a haven for ticks as the birds can't get at them to pick them off.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> Know what, I have a problem with the conservation people who put radio collars on animals. They create a haven for ticks as the birds can't get at them to pick them off.


It's the only way they can keep track of animals that are being protected or observed for some reason while allowing them a reasonably normal life
I'm sure that the ticks are a minor detail - the entire thinking behind conservation groups like these is to try to protect animals from extinction and poachers are a big threat to them.
Here's what's already on Africa's endangered list
Earth's Endangered Creatures - Endangered Species of Africa

Once these things are extinct its too late to say 'Of what a shame, why wasn't something done'

If one good thing has come out of this it's that Zimbabwe has now banned the hunting of lions, leopards and elephants outside of Hwange National parks. Maybe they've realized that the tourists that go there to see these magnificent creatures alive are worth more to them financially than some trophies on a someone's walls.
Bow hunting there has also been suspended unless under special circumstances and confirmed in writing by the Director General of their Parks and Wildlife Authority


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

Just saw the giraffe picture. Totally sickening.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

As with anything 'natural' it needs management. 
There are areas where a certain type of animal abounds and they need culling back. 

If wealthy people are willing to pay big money which goes towards conservation then it makes sense.

It all seems so hypocritical to make such a fuss when there are many endangered species in North America. Bison were nearly wiped out at one point, ditto with Wolves yet when they are re introduced there is an outcry. 

You cannot tell me that all these were killed for a benefit, I dare say many heads or pelts adorn houses.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The US actually has some very strict laws on where you can hunt, what you can hunt and when you can hunt so they do now take the loss of species more seriously than people realize 
One of the things that also annoyed Conservationists is that Cecil had cubs that he was the 'protector' of that if not for the good luck that his brother took over that role might have been killed by an incoming new male.
Culling for the benefit of the animal group and controlled legal hunting that benefits the reserves isn't the problem


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

There are just people in the world who are compelled to destroy things. They can't be satisfied to appreciate nature, they want it dead on their wall.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

jaydee said:


> The US actually has some very strict laws on where you can hunt, what you can hunt and when you can hunt so they do now take the loss of species more seriously than people realize


Not so true.

Condors around the Grand Canyon are greatly endangered from shooters - not that they are being shot directly, hunters leave deer they have shot, the birds scavenge off the carcass ingesting the lead pellets which kills the and any chicks they have. 

Now, if those hunters were told not to use lead pellets or to bury any remains then there would be an outcry.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I have no idea about how deer hunters in the Grand Canyon treat things they shoot or what the rules allow there - but around here they shoot deer to eat them so they aren't usually left to rot, venison is in quite high demand.
The Hunting seasons are well regulated too
2015 Summary of Hunting Season Dates | Connecticut Hunting Guide | eRegulations.com

Hunters in most states are asked to remove lead shot from anything they do kill and leave and are also asked to preferably use non lead shot because of the risks to wildlife that might eat anything containing it.
People here do care, mistakes happen and there are always irresponsible people but on the whole its a case of the minority giving the majority a bad name
States like Arizona have this initiative:
QUOTE: 
_Since 2005, as part of an effort to reduce lead exposure in condors, the Arizona Game and Fish Department has provided free non-lead ammunition to big game hunters in Units 12A, 12B, 13A, and 13B (the areas condors frequent most during the hunting season). The department also instituted a gut pile raffle program where hunters shooting lead-based ammunition in these units remove their gut piles from the field for proper disposal. Hunters responded with 80 to 90 percent voluntarily using non-lead ammo or removing their gut pile to benefit condors since 2007. Thanks to the efforts of these hunters, the amount of lead available to condors has been reduced in Arizona. According to __post-hunt survey results__, 93 percent of hunters who used the non-lead ammunition said it performed as well as or better than lead bullets. In addition, 72 percent of all hunters said they would recommend the 100 percent copper bullets to other hunters. _


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