# Can someone please pinpoint what this guy did wrong? (somewhat graphic, angry horse)



## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

I saw this video: 



 on another thread and it caused a huge pit to form in my stomach. I'm new to horses and very excited about the prospect of doing groundwork with my new horse (being delivered in a couple weeks, hopefully, YAY!), but after seeing this, I'm kind of freaked out.

My horse is very calm, docile, and broke at 11 years old (part draft horse, part arabian), so I know I won't see this behavior from her, but I'm still curious what this supposed expert did wrong. I want to avoid doing whatever he did at all costs forever and ever in my horseriding life! And I'd like to learn as much as I can about horse behavior and body language.

It looks like he pushed the horse too far, too fast. I'm guessing he should have done more "get the feet moving" stuff before sacking out. He wasn't paying attention to the pinned ears for sure. But is there something else I'm not seeing? Is it true that there are some psychotic horses out there that can't be trained? 

I'm only looking at this from an "understanding horse mentality" perspective. I do NOT plan on ever being around a horse like this in a round pen, so please don't warn me against it. My sharply honed instincts of survival serve me well.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

What he did wrong? Easy, went into the pen with a vicious horse and didn't have a weapon, with that horse, I would have had a cattle prod or a pitchfork.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

That horse was a brain damaged, very mishandled stallion - in my opinion, there was nothing you can really do when a horse is not a horse anymore.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

he thought he could deal with him, becuase he thought the horse would behave like a horse, when the horse behaved like a lion.

I have seen this video twice. It's unbearable to watch again.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

waresbear said:


> What he did wrong? Easy, went into the pen with a vicious horse and didn't have a weapon, with that horse, I would have had a cattle prod or a pitchfork.


Were you being serious? Sorry, but I'm too new to judge sarcasm yet.  Do people actually do that?


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> he thought he could deal with him, becuase he thought the horse would behave like a horse, when the horse behaved like a lion.


Ha, ha... He did have some lion-like looks there, didn't he? he's even the right color.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

I saw this video also: 



 . 
This is also a stallion, one that was abused ... but this guy did all the right things it seems to me.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

If I knew the horse was vicious, you darn right I would take a weapon, the protection of my flesh is first and foremost. Any horse that wants to harm me intentionally needs to be cured or killed, period, no in between.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

That scene is from the movie "Buck" the back story was it was an orphaned foal hand raised, 4 year old stallion who was aggressive towards the owner. Owner had something along the lines of 18 studs living together. She was unable to handle this horse and the horse was sent to a Buck Brenneman clinic as the last ditch effort. Clearly it did not work out and the horse was supposedly euthanized. 

The horse did give some badness signs. A lot of the signs were more avoidance/****y signs. The "attack" was excessive in that most horses it seems will do a bluff rush before actually making contact. That said the fact that the horse was allowed to persistently line up towards the guy was bad in my opinion. 

There might have been some rushing with respect to training; however, that is the nature of a clinic. The other problem was this horse was drastically different in the movie when worked on horseback. The issue was a huge lack of respect. The horse charged fences and was never it seemed really given a come to jesus moment. The owner at least from the movie, gave the impression that she would be unable to maintain any training that was done. This horse would have been difficult to work with and a constant project (need to be reminded of his place in the herd daily) for even an advanced handler. 

I would not count on your horse being like this horse. If you horse does end up like it don't try to fix it yourself.

Edit to ad: Sometimes spoiled is mistaken for abused.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

Wow I thought my new horse offering to kick was bad (no kick but he lifted his leg)! Don't worry! I'm dealing with a horse that has absolutely no respect for humans, and he has never acted like that. I think this guy pushed the horse entirely too hard and too fast. Don't let stuff like this keep you from enjoying your new horse. I promise very few act like this horse did, and even then I put a lot of the blame on the handler. He should have done much more for respect before even attempting something like this. The horse needed to learn respect, not to have a sack swung over it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

ecasey said:


> Ha, ha... He did have some lion-like looks there, didn't he? he's even the right color.



no, that horse actually waited until the man was positioned correctly for him to strike. it was a very predatory and cunning attack, unlike most cornered horses, who will strike out rather blindly, and then only when pushed to the max.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> no, that horse actually waiting until the man was positioned correctly for him to strike. it was a very predatory and cunning attack, unlike most cornered animals who will strike out rather blindly, and then only when pushed to the max.


I got that impression too. That horse acted more predator-like than prey-like. Threw everything I've read about horses out the window. ha ha


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

The horse was in a stallion fight with a man. The fact that the horse went in teeth bared and was willing to go down to his knees to deliver a bite is behavior that is more commonly seen in a stallion/stallion battle. Which fits with the horse being orphaned and not realizing he is a horse and not a human or rather that humans are not horses.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

I believe this is part of the "Buck" documentary. From my perspective and simply put, the gentleman in question failed to read the signs. The horse told him he did not like/understand what was going on. I think it would have been better for the handler to have taken a moment and came up with a game plan that got the horse moving and settled before advancing to the pad. On second thought I take that back, I think it would have been more appropriate to have started at square one with that horse as he had a ton of issues and started with a thorough course of groundwork rather than a short duration colt starting clinic. The tricky part here though is I don't know if anyone really knows whether this was just a somewhat slow witted spoiled horse or mentally disturbed one.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

I guess my next question would be ... how do you know it's a behavioral issue versus a brain damaged horse?

This is all just curiosity on my part, y'all. I promise, I won't go anywhere near a horse like this.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Chevaux said:


> I believe this is part of the "Buck" documentary. *From my perspective and simply put, the gentleman in question failed to read the signs. The horse told him he did not like/understand what was going on. I* think it would have been better for the handler to have taken a moment and came up with a game plan that got the horse moving and settled before advancing to the pad. On second thought I take that back, I think it would have been more appropriate to have started at square one with that horse as he had a ton of issues and started with a thorough course of groundwork rather than a short duration colt starting clinic. The tricky part here though is I don't know if anyone really knows whether this was just a somewhat slow witted spoiled horse or mentally disturbed one.



in training, even in riding, the horse may tell us that he does not like what we've been doing, but that does not mean we always stop it. we may do more approach and retreat, but just having the horse express that he did not understand or like what was going on would never make me think I was about to be attacked. would not necessarily mean "stop what you are doing' but could mean, you need to persist a bit longer so the horse can move through the area of upset of confusion.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

ecasey said:


> I guess my next question would be ... how do you know it's a behavioral issue versus a brain damaged horse?
> 
> This is all just curiosity on my part, y'all. I promise, I won't go anywhere near a horse like this.



really, how does one know, since behavior is always a product of the brain.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

Brain damaged horses are fairly rare. An event that would cause a horse to be brain damaged such as a lack of oxygen or other birth defect tend to kill the horse before it can advance very far. Spoiled horses with behavioral problems are more common. You never really know all you can ever really know is what you can or cannot handle. If you think you can't handle it or don't feel safe listen to your inner voice that says "don't do that". That little voice is self preservation.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

There are too many nice, sane horses out there who need homes to spend more time/money than is necessary on something that will probably never lead a normal life. :/


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

What he did wrong... Where to start...

He's using a method known as "flooding" to desensitize this horse to something that concerns it. The definition of flooding (psychologically) is "a form of desensitization for treating phobias and anxieties by repeated exposure to highly distressing stimuli until the lack of reinforcement of the anxiety response causes its extinction." Which means, essentially provide the scary stimulus at it's height until the human or animal comes to just accept that the object isn't going to hurt them and there's nothing they can do to get away from it. For example, this would be like putting someone terrified of flying an a long, turbulent flight - until they come to accept that they can't get off the plane and they learn to "deal" with the situation.

The horse has two ways of reacting to fear - Flight is the most common, it is what saves them in most situations. But when Flight doesn't work anymore many horses will submit and "give up" (being caught by the cougar, they just go numb) - while others will turn to fight. The fight response is almost always a "last option". This man, IMO, pushed this horse MASSIVELY over it's threshold and expected the horse to just "go numb" and accept this thing that scared it. 
In my limited experience, horses have a hard time learning anything once they're "overthreshold".

This threshold is the moment a horse switches from thinking and learning, to reacting and fleeing.

In the case of extreme fear based aggression my first choice is to resort to CAT. "Constructional Approach Therapy" - it is Pressure and Release in it's purest form.
In this method you apply the "pressure" of the scary object until you get near, but not to the line of the horse's "threshold" - when there you apply the stimulus until the horse shows signs of relaxing, at which point you remove the "pressure" of the scary object. You then go back later and approach closer - approaching that line of the new threshold, wait until they show signs of relaxation, then back off. Repeat this until the animal is 100% comfortable with the situation.
Let's take this horse for example. I would have started with the blanket folded up, the horse loose, and approached his pen with it - if he didn't notice or mind my prescience with the folded blanket I would go into the pen, if I could get 5ft away from him with the folded blanket before he was looking at me wearily I'd stop and wait. When he showed signs of relaxing (softening his muscles, licking and chewing, looking away or anything) I would back off and let him be for a while. I would go back and keep the blanket folded until I could touch the horse's entire body with it, using this approach and retreat method. 
Once able to touch the horse all over I'd let the blanket unfold once, and repeat, all the way until I can have the blanket wide open and flapping around. 
I would also probably introduce some "counter conditioning" which is connecting the object of anxiety, with something very pleasant for the horse. 
For example - my colt is a VERY itchy boy, loves scritches, so he learned fast that plastic bags were AWESOME because when they were on his back I scratched him like wild through the bag. He loved having plastic bags flap around him, cause it felt good.

So to answer your question - the man in the video flooded the horse and pushed him seriously over threshold. He gambled that the horse would give in rather than fight back - he lost.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I agree with you Punks that flood is generally a bad idea. That said, I think in this case the horse's history is a defining element in its training. While CAT works well I think that you have to start that somewhere and if the horse is not safe to be around on the ground in the same pasture than how do you start training? If everything for a horse is a form of flooding than how do you start training? That said, I did not see a whole lot of earnest "flight" from this horse and more "fight". I don't need to fight a 1000 pounds.


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## HeroMyOttb (Dec 28, 2009)

The horse in the first video is from the documentary Buck.

That horse was deprived oxygen when he was born therefore was basically brain dead as others had said. Other people could not handle him so he went to the Buck clinic. It was not Buck who was with the horse it was one of his friends. 

Training could not really fix the horse, he had mental problems.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

rookie said:


> I agree with you Punks that flood is generally a bad idea. That said, I think in this case the horse's history is a defining element in its training. While CAT works well I think that you have to start that somewhere and if the horse is not safe to be around on the ground in the same pasture than how do you start training? If everything for a horse is a form of flooding than how do you start training? That said, I did not see a whole lot of earnest "flight" from this horse and more "fight". I don't need to fight a 1000 pounds.


Yes, sorry I didn't know this horse's history - I was typing while everyone else posted up the full story. But based just on this video the horse was afraid, threatened to attack several times, then did - went all out. I don't believe it was a dominance play - I believe he was afraid and took the only way he knew how. If fighting always got him what he wanted, the hay out of his owner's hands, anything, then fighting would get him out of this overwhelming situation.
I see very rushed training.

If the threshold is outside the fence, you start outside the fence.
I have a friend who's horse was terrified of humans - even seeing one standing outside her paddock fence would send her running to the opposite side. She started by approaching the paddock and when the horse's head went up and focused on her she stopped and waited until the horse relaxed with her there, then she left. Came back later and got about 10 steps closer before the focus was on again. It took her 1 week, but with this method she was in her horse's paddock patting her neck quietly. Then she began clicker training to overcome the rest of her troubles. Now they ride and do Western Dressage together


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Forgive me as I didn't read all the responses. 

The guy in the first video first off didn't think the horse was serious about his threats and it bit him, literally, as he let himself get out of position to let the horse make an attack. 

Second off, in my opinion, the wrong tools and method was used to deal with the aggressiveness. I would of been less than kind to resolve the aggressiveness before trying to 'desensitize'. No point in 'desensitizing' if the horse wants to paw your head off because all that's going to do is make him want to is paw you harder. 
That's my over simplified take on the situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

PunksTank said:


> What he did wrong... Where to start...
> 
> He's using a method known as "flooding" to desensitize this horse to something that concerns it. The definition of flooding (psychologically) is "a form of desensitization for treating phobias and anxieties by repeated exposure to highly distressing stimuli until the lack of reinforcement of the anxiety response causes its extinction." Which means, essentially provide the scary stimulus at it's height until the human or animal comes to just accept that the object isn't going to hurt them and there's nothing they can do to get away from it. For example, this would be like putting someone terrified of flying an a long, turbulent flight - until they come to accept that they can't get off the plane and they learn to "deal" with the situation.
> 
> ...



have you seen the movie? there were several incidences where people mearly walking by the corral where he was were attacked. only the bars saved them. they had no way put pressure on him. He had been worked with before, too, but never successfully and had attacked the owner and others multiple times.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Forgive me as I didn't read all the responses.
> 
> The guy in the first video first off didn't think the horse was serious about his threats and it bit him, literally, as he let himself get out of position to let the horse make an attack.
> 
> ...



100% agree he treated an aggression issue like a spooking issue. He went straight to desensitizing, but never bothered to even teach the horse how to exist in the prescience of humans without wanting to kill one.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> have you seen the movie? there were several incidences where people mearly walking by the corral where he was were attacked. only the bars saved them. they had no way put pressure on him. He had been worked with before, too, but never successfully and had attacked the owner and others multiple times.


No I hadn't seen the movie - just saw the clip. I just explained that ^ up there, the posts are coming faster than we can read them  I had wrote that whole thing when there was still only 1 response, so didn't see the horse had a history.


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## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

I know that guy, I take hunter jumper lessons from his wife Tina. They're nice, good people. That horse was a lost cause, and Dan probably just wasn't paying attention to the horses warning signs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

i think that approach and retreat as you described is a worthy tool in training, but if you never do something that might upset your horse, you will never know what is really inside him, emotionallly, until , by accident, he encounters something upsetting.

so many people don't want to do what is necessary, such as keep up the pressure or direction with the lead rope, becuase the horse demonstrates being upset, such as throwing his head up, or jumping. they stop the "asking", just exactly when they should stay in and help the horse through the emotional rough spot. so horse learns: 'handler puts pressure on me, it feels really bad, I get scared and try to avoid it, I get release, but I still feel bad"

if you help him through, until he makes the change you were asking for in the first place, then you take the pressure off, he learned that even becoming upset does not upset his human, but the human maintains a steady leadership and waits for the horse to follow, and then everything becomes calm again, and no bad feelings are left because the hrose found the Good way out, and he learned that even being scared or upset, his human is still the leader and nothing bad will happen.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I know the horses background because I've seen the movie so I am biased.
Looking at the clip alone though I don't see a scared horse. I see a spoiled horse who goes from irritated to aggressive almost instantly. 
Working with a spoiled horse can often be more dangerous than working with a wild horse. Top that with brain damage, and well you can see it on the video.
If the woman had given the horse the extra care it needed then things would never have escalated to this point.


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## Trinity Ridge (Nov 27, 2013)

instead of a blanket he shoulda used a .357 magnum


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## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

There was no possible way you could get anywhere near that horse safely. He would lunge at people walking by the field where he lived. (I have driven by it before) he was aggressive, and dangerous. Like Buck said, the human failed this horse. From the point he was at when this documentary was filmed, he was too far gone. They put him down, and that's that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

The horse was deprived of oxygen at birth, I know that was already said but thought I'd re-instate


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> in training, even in riding, the horse may tell us that he does not like what we've been doing, but that does not mean we always stop it. we may do more approach and retreat, but just having the horse express that he did not understand or like what was going on would never make me think I was about to be attacked. would not necessarily mean "stop what you are doing' but could mean, you need to persist a bit longer so the horse can move through the area of upset of confusion.


 I agree, under normal circumstances, that persistence (and consistency) will help the horse to figure out what to do as long as we keep him thinking and don't push him to the point of fight/flight. In this case, the handler (and I know this is hindsight) did push to the fight/flight point, rather quickly I might add but this may be due to the mental capabilities of that horse, and we saw the outcome - where most horses would have tried to run away this one did not. I, also, would not think that attack would be the first choice in a training situation (rather flight to be the norm, if the horse is panic stricken). I like to think that I learned from this unpleasant incident to make sure both horse and me are using the same game plan 'cause I'm not as physically agile as that cowboy was.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> have you seen the movie? there were several incidences where people mearly walking by the corral where he was were attacked. only the bars saved them. they had no way put pressure on him. He had been worked with before, too, but never successfully and had attacked the owner and others multiple times.


I haven't seen the documentary so I had to watch the video twice to soak it in. I agree with your conclusions, this horse did not give any real indication that he was going to attack the way he did. He looked cranky and unwilling with some disrespect but I did not see the attack coming the way it did, not with the bite and stomp. As far as I can see, the gentleman's mistake was letting his guard down or being too comfortable with his job.

I don't agree earlier statements by other people regarding "brain dead". re-tarded maybe but that horse had a thought process going on, untrainable, wild, and dangerous but not brain dead....


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

There is a difference between a truly aggressive horse and one that paws out of fear or pain. The horse in the clip in my opinion is an aggressive horse because he has been allowed to be one, not sure what to think about the brain damage story. Honestly I think the only brain damage he had was from being mishandled. ( not meaning abuse, but the horse needed to treated like a horse not a puppy living in the house) the horse learned he could be aggressive and buffalo the owner/ "breeder", I use that term loosely, and took full advantage of it when dealing with humans. 
The aggressive behavior needed to be dealt with before the desensitization started. 
If it was a fear response then the aggressiveness needed to be dealt with as it arised then the desensitization continued as it wasn't a big deal or an out for dealing with something that was unpleasant.
This is where a good read on a horse is important, not everyone ( not saying that I can) can tell the difference between honest to goodness fear and aggression. Either way, misread a horse and he can learn to use the behavior to get out of doing something that is uncomfortable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I have worked with at least 10 or 12 horses that were this bad or worse. I thought the stud in Buck - the movie was easy next to some of the ones I have encountered.

First off -- the handler is NOT flooding or sacking out the horse. He 'thinks' he can haze him away with the blanket and get him to move -- his first mistake. He finds out the horse is not even a little bit afraid of the sack. Actually, he was counting on him showing enough fear to move away.

He misread just how aggressive this horse really was. He took a blanket to a gun fight. He lost!

The very first spoiled stud I took in to train (and stand at stud) was much worse. He had put a man in the hospital and he was having reconstructive surgery while I was taking on his stallion. [This, by the way, was the ONLY spoiled stud I ever had get me down, much like this horse did only in a much smaller pen.] It was the ONLY one. I never let another one have that chance. I crawled out from under the stud pen fence on my belly. I was lucky and only had black and blue bruises and no broken bones

I have not met the spoiled stud that did not 're-train' -- some better than others. But then not all other prospects train the same either. Maybe there is one out there that people can blame brain damage on, but I have not met one. That first stud I had ended up with me showing him under saddle and roping off of him. He was a AA race horse that was spoiled by his owner after he left the track. He put his owner in the hospital twice. I stood him at stud for 5 years after that and he sired some of the best horses I have ever ridden.

I have seen geldings and mares almost this aggressive, but stallions are the most viscous and aggressive when they get this spoiled.

I have tried every different way there is to handle them. I have found whips and sticks to be the very worst way. I have found lip chains to be nearly as bad. [They work sometimes is the horse is not too bad.] I have found restraints (like 4 way hobbles and laying one down) to be, by far, the best way. You do not have to abuse a horse or beat one down. You don't even have to be big or strong. You just have to control his mobility -- control his feet. What is the ultimate way to control a horse's mobility? Take it completely away from him. Lay him down and sit on him and pet him all over. When you let him up, he thinks you are god.

When you let him up, just treat him like absolutely nothing happened. I have not had it fail. Every one of them has gotten up with his head down, licking his lips and ready to go to school. They have not even been a problem to handle for breeding.

There is only one I have had to lay down twice. They just went down being one horse and got up being a totally different horse.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I personally don't buy the brain damage argument. I feel like the owner says that to make herself feel better. Mostly because genuine cases of an animal not breathing and being brought back to high function after CPR alone are very rare. Most doctors in an ER setting estimate they get 5% of the people back from an arrest with CPR. The idea that this woman gave the foal CPR and brought it back to life is to me a very nice falsehood she told herself to avoid blame for its poor behavior. 

I think there are animal equivalents of psychopaths and this may be one of those very rare cases. I think its more likely the result of an orphan foal who was never treated as a horse. This animal grew up thinking that humans are horses. It became a very aggressive horse because it never realized what appropriate equine behavior was/is. The result was it behaved towards humans like they were rival stallions. 

I think a brain damaged horse would be more likely to be a little dopey. This horse is smart and lines people up before acting. There is a section of the movie where the horse is loaded onto a trailer. That sequence is much more gentle pressure and release. The horse is given enough pressure to move into the trailer but never enough for it to be able to fully justify an attack. Likewise, in that sequence the handler is never less than 15 feet from the horse and more importantly never takes his eyes off the horse. Eye contact is huge, its when people were not watching him in the pen that the horse would charge the fence at them.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

Cherie said:


> ...
> 
> ... I have found restraints (like 4 way hobbles and laying one down) to be, by far, the best way. You do not have to abuse a horse or beat one down. You don't even have to be big or strong. You just have to control his mobility -- control his feet. What is the ultimate way to control a horse's mobility? Take it completely away from him. Lay him down and sit on him and pet him all over. When you let him up, he thinks you are god.
> 
> ...


I find this whole idea fascinating! I saw those videos of that guy who lays horses down all the time and it's just miraculous what happens after. Yes, I know only experts should do this ... but it doesn't make it any less amazing for me as an observer.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Cherie said:


> I have tried every different way there is to handle them. I have found whips and sticks to be the very worst way. I have found lip chains to be nearly as bad. [They work sometimes is the horse is not too bad.] I have found restraints (like 4 way hobbles and laying one down) to be, by far, the best way. You do not have to abuse a horse or beat one down. You don't even have to be big or strong. You just have to control his mobility -- control his feet. What is the ultimate way to control a horse's mobility? Take it completely away from him. Lay him down and sit on him and pet him all over. When you let him up, he thinks you are god.
> 
> When you let him up, just treat him like absolutely nothing happened. I have not had it fail. Every one of them has gotten up with his head down, licking his lips and ready to go to school. They have not even been a problem to handle for breeding.
> 
> There is only one I have had to lay down twice. They just went down being one horse and got up being a totally different horse.


Amen!
Haven't dealt with as tough or as many as you but the sticks and whips make the bad ones worse, completely agree.
Control of the feet is where it's at


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Yup! If you think he was ****ed off before, just wave a whip or a stick or club in his face. You'll see what ****ed off really is. 

I have not one doubt in my mind that the spoiled stud in Buck could have been thrown, cut while he was down and let up and he never would have taken another bad step toward anyone in his life. Someone knowledgeable could have come in and broke him to ride and do anything he could have been taught if he had not gotten spoiled.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

Cherie said:


> Yup! If you think he was ****ed off before, just wave a whip or a stick or club in his face. You'll see what ****ed off really is.
> 
> I have not one doubt in my mind that the spoiled stud in Buck could have been thrown, cut while he was down and let up and he never would have taken another bad step toward anyone in his life. Someone knowledgeable could have come in and broke him to ride and do anything he could have been taught if he had not gotten spoiled.


Yes! I have seen people try to use whips, etc on a aggressive/respect-less horse and the only thing it ended up doing was making the horse come after them. The dominant horse is the dominant horse because he can make the other horses move their feet. The same horses that reacted badly never challenged the handler again once they realized who could make who move.


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## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

That horse in first video needs to be shot wow he's one mean horse.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

There are some horses you couldn't get into the same corral with, let alone put a halter on and last long enough to get bitten like this. This one actually gave a lot of warnings. The mistake the man made was letting his guard down at the same moment as he stepped in front of the horse and into the line of fire, but it was an accident waiting to happen. If you watch the parts where Buck is in there with him, one time he's on his saddle horse which gave him a considerable advantage in controlling the situation. A man on a good horse with a rope or a flag to create distance and drive the other horse away is formidable. And the times he was in there on foot, he kept the horse well away from himself.

The reason that it happened had very little to do with the man in the video and more to do with the horse's experience in life every day leading up to that moment. It's a little bit like the guy and his girlfriend who were eaten by the grizzly bears they lived with or the people you hear about whose pet chimpanzees attack people. Stallion instincts + inappropriate influences (too much humanization, too few appropriate equine influences) during his formative years + STALLION INSTINCTS (bears repeating) = very dangerous. Learn from it, but try not to worry too much that it'll happen to you. Many of us who have quite a little horse experience were even shocked by this scene. These horses exist, but it's not something we're used to seeing a lot of. He was pretty screwed up.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I heard that the woman did not actually have that stallion put down. Anyone know for sure?


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

What I'm wondering is why he wasn't gelded the first time he even remotely acted this way... He should have been gelded and the whole respect training issue nipped in the bud


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

JCnGrace said:


> I heard that the woman did not actually have that stallion put down. Anyone know for sure?


 I also have heard that (via the net) and that he may actually have some foals on the ground now. Don't know if it's fact or not.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I hadn't heard that part Chevaux. Obviously the woman needs more help than her horses do.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

Cherie said:


> Yup! If you think he was ****ed off before, just wave a whip or a stick or club in his face. You'll see what ****ed off really is.
> 
> I have not one doubt in my mind that the spoiled stud in Buck could have been thrown, cut while he was down and let up and he never would have taken another bad step toward anyone in his life. Someone knowledgeable could have come in and broke him to ride and do anything he could have been taught if he had not gotten spoiled.


Can you elaborate on that part where you said the horse needs to be "cut". Do you mean gelded? Or a different kind of cut?

Before you said that you handled a couple stallions worse off than this one and one of them ended up siring some amazing horses. Why would you cut this one in the video and not the other one you were handling?

I'm not questioning anything you said AT ALL. I'm just really curious about this whole business.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

"Cut" is just horse speak for castrating or gelding. The horse in the movie was just a horse. There was nothing at all that made him outstanding. He was the last horse on earth that needed to be bred to any mares.

The horse that was sent to me was already ROM (Register Of Merit) and rated AA on the race track. He won several really nice Quarter Horse Races as a 2 and 3 year old. He had outstanding conformation and was very well bred. The owner took him home after his racing career and was going to try to make a roping horse out of him. He had turned down a LOT of money for the horse when he first came off of the track. The owner was totally incompetent to handle a stud and completely spoiled him by 'pecking' on him and trying to handle him with a whip. I got him 2 years after he came off of the track and was really dangerous.

Most of the other viscous studs I re-trained were also left intact. They were already breeding horses when I took them in. A Paint owned by Hank Weiscamp's nephew, had nearly killed another trainer. He got him down and continued to attack him breaking his femur in multiple places with bones protruding through his Levis. He nearly died and was crippled for life. 

That horse had a long history of bad trainers instead of a bad owner. I offered to take him because I heard about his story and knew two of the trainers that had tried him (and really disliked both of them). He was so bad he would try to break a fence down to try to get to someone. He was the worst one I ever tackled. I took him and showed him at the Paint Nationals in Halter and Hunter Under Saddle about 4 or 5 months later and got his stallion inspection at that time. 

When he tried to kill that last trainer, he stood in a small round breaking pen for 2 days with a saddle on and no feed or water. No one could get a hand on him. Finally a guy came over with a trunk and trailer, backed up to the pen and got the horse in. [I don't remember if his owner was with them or not.] They then hauled him to the local fair grounds and they got him into a bucking chute where they took the saddle off and took him home. The owner got him in a stock trailer by loading his mother first and brought him to me some time later. No one had been able to lay a hand on him after he crippled the other trainer. The owner was going to have him put down, but the Vet had already heard about him and refused to come out and told them to just shoot him. Everyone in town had heard about him and that was when I heard his story, too, and offered to take him. I told the owner I would put him down if he could not be retrained. I cannot remember, but it may have been the Vet that told me about him.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

@Cherie: Wow, that's really cool. I'm so impressed!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I don't know that there was evidence that the horse was brain damaged?
It was a colt that had never been handled and never kept in with other horses, it must have suffered from all sorts of frustrations and had no sense of boundaries of how to behave around humans or other horses
The guy underestimated the horse and overestimated himself and his techniques
Having it sedated and gelded would have been a better way to start with it


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

ecasey said:


> I guess my next question would be ... how do you know it's a behavioral issue versus a brain damaged horse?
> 
> This is all just curiosity on my part, y'all. I promise, I won't go anywhere near a horse like this.


I, personally, don't think the horse was "brain damaged" as much as he spent his life being grossly mishandled.

The woman who owned him has real issues. She hand raised this colt and probably treated him like a cushy toy. I doubt he was EVER taught any discipline or respect and he, as a result, never knew he was supposed to submit to humans.

The observation that this was like a stallion on stallion challenge is spot on, in my opinion. This stallion was extremely dominant and was not going to submit to anyone...anytime. Sadly, there is only one thing to be done with such a horse. To spend time trying to work with such a horse is pretty pointless.


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

Anyone else notice the small squeals the horse made right before he made his move? He wasn't neighing for others, he was focused on the person...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

The stallion I often use in my avatar was almost as rank as this one, when I first started working with him. He needed two handlers everytime he was bred or moved to keep him from striking or biting. When I started working with him, it only took two weeks to have a very different horse.

The difference was that this horse had a very different mentality, I think, than the one in the video. He had never been "mishandled", he had just never been taught how to behave. There is a fine line there that I have trouble explaining. I just, somehow, knew that this stallion could be retrained. He not only came around, he LOVED being handled afterwards. I used 99% positive reinforcement, backed up with instant and fair tough correction when he misbehaved.


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## Strawberry4Me (Sep 13, 2012)

These are horses that have been raised like children and not like horses. The first horse literally lived in his owners living room until he was too big to fit. As long as your horse has been raised as a horse, I would say its safe to assume an experienced horse trainer will have no problem training him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

When I say this woman had issues....she had something like 19 stallions! And, she had no clue about how to handle any of them. BB gave her a piece of his mind and told her she needed professional mental help. I really agreed with him.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Its a fairly common behavioral problem hand reared foals that aren't treated like horses. My old mare Flo was reared like that - encouraged to even stand up and put her front hooves on their shoulders like I wouldn't even do with a dog. At 3 yrs old she was destined for the slaughter yard because she was dangerous without even meaning to be. Our vet asked us to give her a try and when I say that you needed full body armour on to be safe around her I'm not kidding. She at least didn't have the stallion testosterone to fuel her and was just domineering and had no clue what was acceptable. It took one really hard smack with the sawn off end of a broom handle to explain to her what was allowed and what wasn't
I did much the same thing with the arab stallion we took on but having him castrated made the biggest difference to his aggressive attitude - though he had to be sneakily orally sedated to allow the vets to even get near him


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Why didn't the "cowboy" just drop the pad in the pen, leave the horse alone and let it check it out. No, instead he attempted to toss it on it's back with no preliminary work. From the horse's point of view the pad was attacking him. A mountain lion will jump on a horse's back so the horse was very defensive of this. As the man yanked on him, the horse felt he was being attacked. This is human error, and not the horse's fault.


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## MsLady (Apr 18, 2013)

Saddlebag said:


> Why didn't the "cowboy" just drop the pad in the pen, leave the horse alone and let it check it out. No, instead he attempted to toss it on it's back with no preliminary work. From the horse's point of view the pad was attacking him. A mountain lion will jump on a horse's back so the horse was very defensive of this. As the man yanked on him, the horse felt he was being attacked. This is human error, and not the horse's fault.


I saw this documentary, the video that was posted here is just a small clip (and the worst), but they had been working with this horse for a while.

It's really sad that all of this could have been avoided if the owner had treated this horses like a horse from the beginning, but she didn't. It's been a while since I watched it but I don't think this horse was ever around other horses, he was not taught any mannors. When he was young he was allowed to do as he pleased so why should now be any different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!

The horse did not think the guy or the pad was 'attacking' him. He was not fearful for a second. It was a 'challenge' to his dominance and he meant to kill it or run it off. It was no different than if another stallion had tried to haze or move him away from his mares. He was in attack mode before the whole thing started. Had the guy dropped it and run, he would have chased him and probably caught him and taken him down. 

If you are presented such a spoiled stud and you cannot get a halter on him, you have no choice but to rope him and choke him down if you do not have a strong enough chute or way to get him in one. They will come hunt the other end of the rope every time. They are not only not afraid of it, they come and hunt the person on the other end of it. 

Ask my husband. The first one we got to retrain after we were married -- well, he swaggered out there and said he would rope him. I warned him to rope him off of a fence or the two of us needed to rope him at the same time -- like a big mad bull has to be handled. He walked into a big pen and roped him and never got the rope tight. It was quite a site watching him run for a fence while that horse was one step behind him snapping like an alligator with his ears buried where you could not see them and his head about 1 foot off of the ground. It made a believer out of him. Like the first horse that got me down -- you don't make those kinds of mistakes twice. I'll bet the guy in the first video is a little smarter now, too.


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## HeroMyOttb (Dec 28, 2009)

Due to what the documentary said the horse was deprived of oxygen when he was born then was continued to be spoiled as he grew. Even if there was no physical evidence that's what the owner said.

There isn't much more to say what happen.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

I was so curious after reading this thread that I rented and watched the original movie "Buck". Oh my ... this woman had the horse living in her house ... she even potty trained him! And she had, I think it was, 17 other studs all living in one pasture together and she has no idea how to handle any horses at all. 

Buck B gave her a serious talking to, telling her the horse and her ridiculous decision to have that many studs was a reflection of her messed up life and emotional problems.

And that guy who got bitten didn't seem to learn his lesson. He wandered around in front of the horse again later with a whole row of stitches in his chin and almost got bitten a second time.

Buck was amazing, though. The work he did with the horse before this clip was very impressive. Like Cherie said, he used a hobbling move (rope on the back leg the whole time.)


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

I don't know for sure if that horse was put to sleep but honestly, I would have put it to sleep if it were mine. Then again, I wouldn't own 19 stallions and let them run the show from birth on. The lady was nuts and honestly, she caused this issue and ultimately the death of the horse, if she actually followed through and put the horse to sleep. If so, his death was on her.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

ecasey, read his books. Or buy his video series of seven of his clinics. The man, in my opinion, is a beautiful classical rider....and he is a cowboy. Go ride in clinic of his and you better post the trot too.

Also watch the documentary with the sound off and just watch him ride.

The books will explain his philosophy on training and dealing with people. Keep in mind his books are not a step by step training manual. You have to think about what he says.

This isn't a well thought out post...my thoughts are all over the place, so please excuse the rambling. I like the scene in the documentary when he basically tells everyone to back off and shut up while he is trying to get that mentally unstable horse on the trailer. He never lets anger, frustration get in the way. And he doesn't ever blame the horse.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I do not know of any really experienced horse person that has dealt with a lot of these kinds of horses that does not use restraints. The kind you can use is determined by the place you have to work and whether or not you can get a halter on one. 

Choking one down or tripping one are the least desirable ways to do it, but if you cannot get a halter on one, you have no choice. 

I cannot think of a single horse we have had like this that I ever had to hit (I don't like hitting horses anyway) or even scolded after their initial intervention. They just went on like an ordinary horse. I was always extra careful with them, but they just went on like nothing had ever happened. They were just happy being at the bottom of our pecking order of two once they found out that they were in that spot. Their respect and manners were impeccable. 

Like I have said so many times: Pecking and nagging at a horse is the worst way in the world to try to get one to mind.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

IMO his approached was way to strong for a horse who appears to have never been worked with and handled. Horse was trying to defend himself against something that he felt was coming after him. There should have been a lot of free lunging and ground work done before he started haltering and throwing some random saddle pad on a completely untouched horse.

I think this cowboy learned a good lesson that day.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I would not have gotten into that corral with that horse to free lunge it. I think you put the wrong kinda pressure on that horse and it was going to come after you. If you go to free lunge that horse I would want one heck of a something to beat it off me when I came at me. I think ground work is great but how do you do ground work on a horse that is out to get you on the ground? 

Horses that are not worked with and unhanded don't tend to come at you that hard in my opinion. Horses that are used to people and know they can cause harm to a person without repercussion come after you that hard. 

I agree with Cherie that this horse should have been laid down. I am not a fan of laying horses down. I think its often over used and used in place of solid, slow and steady ground work and consistency. That said, in this case the choice was either lay him down or kill him. Even after laying him down I would not put him in inexperienced hands. This was never going to be a novice horse owners horse.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

rookie said:


> I would not have gotten into that corral with that horse to free lunge it. I think you put the wrong kinda pressure on that horse and it was going to come after you.


That round pen is to way to small even for a horse who's trained and works with people. I've seen completely gonzo studs who have never seen a human in their life being worked that way, and it's provided fantastic results. There are more ways to skin a cat.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I would like to see someone 'free longe' a horse that wants to run them down. Ain't gonna happen. Pretty hard to chase one with your **** turned to him while you're running for a fence. Ask husband.


> Horses that are not worked with and unhanded don't tend to come at you that hard in my opinion. Horses that are used to people and know they can cause harm to a person without repercussion come after you that hard.


 You're right on. I have never seen a feral horse, a just caught mustang (we used to catch them as kids) or an un-handled horse attack -- even a herd stud -- unless they were cornered and had no way to get away. I have only seen spoiled studs attack like this.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

Cherie said:


> I would like to see someone 'free longe' a horse that wants to run them down. Ain't gonna happen. Pretty hard to chase one with your **** turned to him while you're running for a fence. Ask husband.


I guess that's the opinion you have, and its ok. Where I grew up in southern France there are thousands and thousands of wild horses roaming and breeding in your local communities, and that is the ONLY way to work and begin training completely wild horses. So I guarantee you it's definitely a way to do it, whether you personally agree to it or not.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

My2Geldings said:


> I guess that's the opinion you have, and its ok. Where I grew up in southern France there are thousands and thousands of wild horses roaming and breeding in your local communities, and that is the ONLY way to work and begin training completely wild horses. So I guarantee you it's definitely a way to do it, whether you personally agree to it or not.


what you are missing here is that the stud in question was not wild. He no longer had the fear of human beings that makes it possible to work them in a round pen as you are describing done with wild horses. that works becuase the wild horse RUNS from humans, he does not attack them aggresively. and even if he fights back, he is afraid of a rope or a flag or other things you can use to make him back off. This horse knew that a flag or a rope was just a rope and could not really hurt him. he went right through the kind of pressure that would easily rebuff a wild horse.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Wild horse =/= spoiled horse. Totally different animals. One wants to run from you, the other wants to kill you. Usually that means that you have to employ totally different techniques than your typical breaker. 
That horse wanted to kill the man. Free lunging him wouldn't have done a darn thing other than giving the horse more room to run the guy down; he probably would have been killed in that instance. The horse was not wild, he was dangerous. I hope someone put a bullet in him.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> I guess that's the opinion you have, and its ok. Where I grew up in southern France there are thousands and thousands of wild horses roaming and breeding in your local communities, and that is the ONLY way to work and begin training completely wild horses. So I guarantee you it's definitely a way to do it, whether you personally agree to it or not.


 I agree when you are working with wild horses. It works great. I used to break a lot of untouched mustangs. I would have never thought of laying one down. They did not need it nor would they have responded to it. But this is NOT a wild horse. He is a spoiled horse that has learned to be viscous toward people. You are talking about two completely different situations -- about as different as it gets.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> what you are missing here is that the stud in question was not wild. He no longer had the fear of human beings that makes it possible to work them in a round pen as you are describing done with wild horses. that works becuase the wild horse RUNS from humans, he does not attack them aggresively.


I didn't miss that point at all, and it looks like you are assuming a lot of things when reading my post. Whatever the reason might be that he is demonstrating this behaviour (no longer fear of humans/wild animal/a 3 legged horse/zebra with stripes) point of this its a horse that is difficult to work with. The critical issue is the same here, a horse who runs and functions by it's own rules. 

As for your comments about wild horses, thats very depending of which specific animal you work with. If you were to take some of the stallions that have been guarding their herd for months even years at a time, they will have the exact same behaviour issues that you see in the video. That's why I brought up that point because to me THATS a real life example I've seen and experienced many times.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

First, let me say My2, that Just dressage it did not "duplicate" my response. she more than likely was composing it independently of me and posted at nearly the same time. It may appear to be a duplicate, but is typical of the way forums tend to come about, with each person composing their own response at the same time.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

_I didn't miss that point at all, and it looks like you are assuming a lot of things when reading my post. Whatever the reason might be that he is demonstrating this behaviour (no longer fear of humans/wild animal/a 3 legged horse/zebra with stripes) point of this its a horse that is difficult to work with. The critical issue is the same here, a horse who runs and functions by it's own rules. _


but you assume that the same techniques that will work for a wild horse; in a round pen, will work for this horse, because he acts unhandled. What I was saying is that the innocence of wild horses , the lack of knowledge that humans ARE easy to kill, is not present in this horse. he KNOWS he can kill, he knows that the human's rope or flag are really harmless. we all know that if a horse had no natural fear of pressure, we'd never really be able to train them. if they KNOW they are stronger, you are in trouble. that is why Cherie's way works ; becuase it reteaches the horse that he is NOT capable of dominating a human.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

May I pose these questions (for the sake of debate only): If the stallion's intent was to kill the man why did he stop at the one hit? If murder was the objective, should not the horse have kept up the attack? In that case, one could argue that the stallion merely wanted him out of his space (and granted he took a devil of a way to do it).


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I don't think there is anything wrong with the idea of putting the horse down. At the end of the day it takes a very special and dedicated person to make this horse "safe" regardless of the method used. That is a task that requires a very special person in my opinion. It is going to take a lot of time, money and an increased risk of personal injury. I also don't think this horse would have been the kind of horse that could be sold or rehomed to a novice or even intermediate rider. He would be even as a gelding a horse for an advanced rider/owner. 

The United States has a surplus of horses and the liability associated with owning a horse like this in a boarding situation is scary. There are a lot of really nice, sound, sane horses that are euthanized everyday or shipped out of country for slaughter. This horse was no more deserving (some would say less deserving) of a home than those horses. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with an owner saying "this horse is too much for me and I don't want to pass his problems along to another person." I think there is a certain amount of courage in saying that you don't want to be responsible for another person being injured by a horse. I have seen people euthanize horses they regarded as dangerous because they regard them as dangerous. It is not an easy decision and I would not judge someone for making that choice. 

If I owned that horse, I would have had it euthanized. I would have had a hard time paying for training on this horse. I also would have a really hard time finding it a home knowing all its issues. I regard myself as a capable horse person; however, I am not about to get killed over a horse. Know your limits.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

My2Geldings said:


> I guess that's the opinion you have, and its ok. Where I grew up in southern France there are thousands and thousands of wild horses roaming and breeding in your local communities, and that is the ONLY way to work and begin training completely wild horses. So I guarantee you it's definitely a way to do it, whether you personally agree to it or not.


 
No that is not the ONLY way to work with a feral horse.
May have been the only way you've witnessed, but there are other ways.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I don't think he wanted to kill the guy in the traditional human sense. The horse was fighting with him as a stallion fights another stallion. In which case, its more about submission. 

The stud won the battle because he knocked his opponent (the man) down. If the guy had come back at him than he probably would have seriously injured him and killed him but that would not be the intent. The horse was not planning murder he was fighting a herd rival.

In the wild, killing your rival does not serve much benefit. Killing your opponent wastes energy and increases your risk of death. If you can prove to your opponent that you are bigger than you get all the mares for yourself. Which means that you get to pass on your genes and he does not. So, your end game (passing on genes) is the same regardless of whether or not you both live. If you fight to the death, you increase your risk of injury which could result in death.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> you assume that the same techniques that will work for a wild horse


Never have I said that. That's just an example of some of the many things I know have been done successfully. I even said that in one of my earlier posts.



tinyliny said:


> that is why Cherie's way works


 Absolutely! As long as it's safe for trainer/rider and horse there is more than one to skin a cat.



COWCHICK77 said:


> No that is not the ONLY way to work with a feral horse.


Never said that it was the only way


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

My2, I believe Cherie stated that your way would work for a wild horse, because a wild horse will not come at you like that. Just thought I'd throw that out there, I can find the post and quote it for you. I'm going off of memory here, but I do believe Cherie said something along those lines.

ETA You also stated somewhere that this was too much for an un-handled horse, this horse was raised as an orphan in someones house, definitely not un-handled.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

My2Geldings said:


> Never said that it was the only way





My2Geldings said:


> *Where I grew up in southern France there are thousands and thousands of wild horses roaming and breeding in your local communities, and that is the ONLY way to work and begin training completely wild horses.*


I guess I am confused...


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## HunterJumperShow (Dec 29, 2013)

This horse was supposedly brain damaged and was raised as a spoiled stud. The trainer approached the situation with the intent the horse would respond like an actual horse, since most choose the flight option rather than fight. There was something severely wrong with this horse and although I am all for most horses can be worked with, when a horse is on another playing field then it isn't safe for anyone involved.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

ecasey said:


> Were you being serious? Sorry, but I'm too new to judge sarcasm yet.  Do people actually do that?


Safety is absolutely serious. Carrying a 'weapon' isn't likely to change this horse's attitude/behaviour for the better(unless you kill it - that tends to 'cure' aggression!:twisted, and you'd better ensure that if you're going to confront a horse like that, that you've got an *effective* weapon, to stay safe, not just make things worse.

I'm not sure what the point of this bit in the Buck movie was, but what I got from it was to say 'look what I have to deal with' and that people can get themselves in way over their heads & make silly decisions & expect miracles from 'gurus'. When that segment started, I thought I was going to see Buck do a demo on how *he* would deal with an aggressive horse, not how he allowed an inexpert man to go in with a confirmed dangerous horse. But perhaps that's how he deals with that sort of thing:?. 

While it seems this was *apparently* a seriously messed up horse & was obviously dangerous, a general clinic isn't the place for this horse to be properly evaluated & trained. I wouldn't be arguing with putting a horse like this down, especially if it was going to be kept by owners in question, just don't think it's fair, from that film/info alone to say the horse was 'incurable' or 'psychotic' or whatever. IMO public 'clinics' aren't the best places to evaluate or train any horse, goes for regular training, like 'colt starting', not just serious problems.


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## HorseMom1025 (Jul 17, 2012)

I watched the whole movie the other night (this thread made me curious). The colt was brought to Buck's clinic as best as I can tell with permission from the sponsors. I'm guessing that the woman who owned the horse is known by the sponsors and suggested she bring him.

Before this clip, Buck was mounted on his horse and roped the colts back foot to give him control. He assisted the trainer (hired by the owner) by maintaining control while the trainer was able to saddle and ride the horse.

The next bit shows Buck firmly but quietly, telling the owner that she was at fault for this horse's problems. He tells her that she is a fool and basically says that this horse is seriously dangerous...and that she really needs to seriously re-evaluate horse ownership. He also says the horse was most dangerous to people on the ground.

Later in the day (post clinic), Buck suggested they work with the colt some more. He went to saddle his horse and warm him up. The clip in this thread shows the trainer entering the round pen while Buck was off getting ready. I think he got a little overconfident from the earlier session and starts flapping the blanket around...somehow forgetting that the ONLY reason this worked earlier was because Buck had the horse restrained. Everything that happened was 100% the trainer's fault. He over estimated his abilities alone and underestimated the horse.

Buck, is the only one able to get the horse loaded into the trailer later. And you can see the frustration and sadness on his face. He does it without force...just with quiet energy (and a couple of flags ).

It was actually really interesting to watch. I don't follow clinicians and don't subscribe to one training method over another. But I was impressed with what I saw. Of course, it WAS a movie designed to show Buck in the best possible light.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

This reminds me of a movie I watched on PBS about a biologist who raises wild turkeys from eggs to adults. He acts as a mother would, spends all his days with them, and when they are old enough, takes them out into the would to teach them self-sufficiency. In their company, he is privileged to see more wildlife than he has ever seen, even as a scientist seeking such. by being with the turkeys, he is for some reason considered one of them. Its fascinating. 

In the end, they leave him, one after another until only one male is left, the one with whom he has the stronger bond. The man imagines they are brothers and any never part. At the same time, he knows male turkeys do not share territory. One day, as they are hunting, the young tom turns on the man. He flies directly into the mans face, clawing,pecking, tearing at him with all his might. And the biologist realizes that the young male has finally become fully mature and decided he must drive this other male off his territory or leave. 

I think of this great movie now because I this young stallion saw humans as horses and acted toward them as he would another horse. 

Mostly, though, its just a great movie and I hope you all get to see it someday!

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/my-life-as-a-turkey/full-episode/7378/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Canterklutz (Jul 20, 2012)

From an interview with Brannaman and the film director.

Buck Brannaman & Cindy Meehl Interview BUCK | Collider | Page 97008



> *So, if through this, in telling this story, if that yellow horse makes people think about responsibility, how maybe they would raise their kids or how they would raise a young horse, that horse will probably get more done in his brief life than a hundred horses would that died of old age. So, for the greater good, it was a story that needed to be told. If you noticed when I was working with the horse that first day, we got quite a bit accomplished. We got him saddled and he got ridden around, but as long as I’m there to sort of run things, the margin of error on a horse like that is so paper thin, if I wasn’t there every day with that girl, it was a guarantee that she was going to get hurt or killed, or worse yet, an innocent person. Maybe someone’s child would be somewhere near the horse. As attentive as a mother can be, she could look away for a few seconds and have that kid right there with that horse. So you look at something like that and for her to make the choice to put the horse down was the best choice for her and there wasn’t anybody more sad about that than me, believe me. Because it didn’t have to happen had someone taken care with that horse early on in his life. But I think some good could really come of it. *


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Thanks for that Canter ;-)


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

.

Temporary interruption of service, please stand by for Moderator review......


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## Jake and Dai (Aug 15, 2008)

Service has been restored with a gentle reminder to keep in mind our Conscientious Etiquette Policy when posting.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-forum-rules-announcements/conscientious-etiquette-policy-6069/


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

There are animals out there that were never meant to work with or around humans. This is one of those. Fortunately they are rare. 

Ever hear the statement "Never a horse that couldn't be rode and never a cowboy that counldn't be throwed?" There might be someone out there that could work with this yellow horse.. but probably not. He either needs to be left alone in the wild (AFTER gelding) or he needs to be euth'd. 

He is a case for the soap factory IMO. There are too many other horses that can be helped and that are nice nice horses to be risking your life with some animal like this. They cannot all be saved nor should they be. 

Pass the soap please.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I agree Elana - too many good horses going for slaughter to waste time on one like this
What I do see myself though - the horse isn't afraid of the sack or the man and even though he attacks - because he's totally irritated by the whole procedure - he stops the moment he's yelled at and backs off and leaves the man to walk away
A truly aggressive horse with a mental problem wouldn't have stopped there - and a bull would have carried on and killed the man without some sort of intervention


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

I live in an area that has a large Buck following. When the movie came out I went with a group of friends to see it. I recognized about 1/2 the people in the theater from the local horse community. As that scene progressed, I started to squirm in my seat because I knew what was going to happen. There was a collective gasp when he was attacked. NO ONE saw it coming. I'm just as surprised (I know I shouldn't be) by the people here who didn't see it coming.


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## ridemcowgirl069 (Jul 29, 2013)

Well first off he didn't stay at a 45° angle from the horses shoulder. Also he stopped after being bit by the horse. Now all the horse has learned is hey all I have to do is bite the stupid humans and they'll leave me alone. This horse wasn't scared he's just very dominate and wanted control over the situation and by biting he got it. Now he'll continue to do it and not just to people but to other horses
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

The horse is calculating and evil and the guy is out of position and his body language sucks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Unless one is highly experienced it is not good to have an audience as it can affect one's thinking, especially if it's one man and a bunch of women. The chest to throatlatch area is a particularly vulnerable area on a horse, one that smaller predators use to bring down a horse as the juglar vein runs there. Horses see us as predators initially and it one makes the mistake of getting near the juglar the horse is going to react with force. That is what this stallion did. His reaction would have been the same if it was a wolf or any other animal with eyes in the front of the head. This would be a great horse for Clinton Anderson to work with and film for tv.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Saddlebag said:


> Unless one is highly experienced it is not good to have an audience as it can affect one's thinking,* especially if it's one man and a bunch of women.* The chest to throatlatch area is a particularly vulnerable area on a horse, one that smaller predators use to bring down a horse as the juglar vein runs there. Horses see us as predators initially and it one makes the mistake of getting near the juglar the horse is going to react with force. That is what this stallion did. His reaction would have been the same if it was a wolf or any other animal with eyes in the front of the head. This would be a great horse for Clinton Anderson to work with and film for tv.


Uh ohhhh....I hope you have your flameproof suit on!! :twisted:


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

Left Hand Percherons said:


> The horse is calculating and evil and the guy is out of position and his body language sucks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't believe animals can be evil. I reserve that for humans. Regardless of the trainer's skill or lack thereof, the horse is dangerous. Who among us can guarantee that only experts who have perfect horse skills and body language will ever be near any given horse though? That's why I recommend euthanasia so readily for dangerous horses. IMPO, 'evil' or not, the danger of a 1000lb aggressive animal should never be underestimated and this horse should have been put down, though internet rumor is that he is alive and well and breeding mares now. Likely as dangerous to humans as ever, especially in protection of his herd. All it takes is someone kind, well meaning, and ignorant person or child to try to feed the pretty pony an apple and boom- someone's son or daughter is dead or severely injured. No horse is worth that risk IMPO.

He is a great example of how dangerous horses can be, or can become, in the wrong hands. Sometimes 'wrong' only through ignorance and inexperience. I love the quote from Buck on a previous page- if we learn something from this clip, let it be that we need to raise and train horses properly so they don't pay for our mistakes with their lives. This trainer's error, in my opinion, is overconfidence, though it was understandable given the response and progress they had made with the stud earlier in the movie. 

If a horse like this comes into my hands, he won't leave them. I have little tolerance for domestic animals that are dangerous even to those that are generally competent at handling the species in normal operations. Dogs, cats, horses, chickens, cows, whatever.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Everyone who seems to be saying "the horse is evil" I seriously beg to differ. I do agree with the "spoiled rotten" comments.
Horses are not malicious animals, IMO only rabid animals are truly malicious. 
All animals learn through reinforcement and punishment. If a behavior is reinforce it will increase in frequency. If the behavior is punished it will decrease in frequency. That is the essence of behavioral learning. Its not up to us humans to decide what sbould be considered reinforcement or punishment for the horse. We need to look at the results and see whether our actions (or inacinactions) reinforced or punished the behavior. Only the animal can tell us if what we're doing is reinforcing or punishing, through his future actions.
Some may see beating this horse as a way to punish his aggressive behavior - maybe his owner tried that - maybe the horse saw this beating as fun, he got to spar like he would with another stud. Thus the beatings reinforced his behavior. 
Maybe the owner reinforced the behavior by leaving him alone or by feeding him. Either way aggressive behavior was TRAINED into this horse.
This horse was Taught to be aggressive. 
He did not wake up one morning amd decide "I hate humans, lets kill them all". 

I think this horse was very far gone. I think there are too many good horses in the world desperately wanting to work for and please humans, brought up well that Need homes - trying to save this one doesnt make much sense.

That being said - he was fixable. If someone was determined, had the time and patience he could have been fixed.
This could be done either Cherie's way through punishment (I mean this in the scientific sense, not the emotional sense) "adding something the horse doesnt want or removing something he does want to reduce the frequency of behavior" is the definition (roughly). He could have been laid down, tied out, or many other methods of punishment could have fixed this horse.
Reinforcement for the correct behavior could have also fixed this horse. I've only had the misfortune to handle one truly aggressive, spoiled colt - so I'm not as experienced as Cherie T breaking the bad boys.
But my colt, on arrival, was a rearer, striker, biter - just your typical spoiled stud colt raised like a rough-housing dog. You could not walk by his enclosure without him coming at you with ears pinned and teeth barred, often he'd strike the gate/fence. We gelded him immediately which helped a lot. 
I stood outside his stall door where he could not reach me he came at me throwing a storm - I waited out of reach. After a while he got bored, knew he couldn't reach me his ears went to normal and he stood in his stall calmly. I tossed a couple carrots and walked away. I repeated this several times until he greeted me with ears forward and a calm demeanor. I was soon able to stand next to him and pat his neck. When he was calm and quite I rewarded with a click+treat. I did this until outside his stall he was 100%... then I went in and stood where I would if I were leading him - at first he nosed for the treats but a noise distracted him and he faces forward I clicked and treated and he got it. He faces forward (away from me) he got food. I did this until he was solid I couod stand anywhere and touch any part of him and he would stand quietly and face forward. 
I did this regularly. His aggression disappeared - he was reinforced for calm politeness and not aggression. Once in his stall he tried to get pushy again, maybe he needed to rule it out, I left. In pressure and release leaving them alone is a big reward - but in clicker training its usually negative punishment (removing something they want to decrease the frequency of behavior). It worked. Next time I went in with him he was a perfect gentleman.

Im not going to say either method is better or worse - they both work and are both, scientifically at least, sound methods of training the animal. But regardless the horse is not "evil" he was trained to be this way. And if anyone cared enough he could be trained not to be - but I dont think anyone would deem it worth trying.


Someine earlier mentioned something (I forget who and am on my phone so cant easily go back) they said something along the lines of "the horse knows he can hurt people and doesnt have to listen to humans" this is exactly why only one of two extremes could fix this horse extreme punishment or extreme counter reinforcement.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

@PunksTank : Thanks for your input! I spent about 3 hours reading your comments on the CT thread and loved them. You really know what you're doing when it comes to distressed horses.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

You're sweet ecasey  I dont work with a large number of horses - but the few I do are all "special" cases. So I learn a lot. But still have so much more to learn, which is why I lovethreads like these.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Left Hand Percherons said:


> There was a collective gasp when he was attacked. NO ONE saw it coming. I'm just as surprised (I know I shouldn't be) by the people here who didn't see it coming.


And I suppose therein lies the sad moral to the story.



> The horse is calculating and evil and the guy is out of position and his body language sucks.


Strongly disagree with the first bit of this. Only humans(...& cats:shock::lol can be evil. This horse was just being a horse, by the looks of things. Albeit one who *through prior handling & experiences had learned some very bad lessons.



> not good to have an audience as it can affect one's thinking, especially if it's one man and a bunch of women.


Hehe! Reminds me of a past incident... which I'm not going to digress on!


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## sorral3 (Jun 7, 2013)

I would encourage you to watch the movie"Buck". Its available on Netflix, and you will see more of the story that lead up to that scene.


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## Canterklutz (Jul 20, 2012)

You can watch the whole thing online here too.

Watch Buck Online Free Putlocker | Putlocker - Watch Movies Online Free


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

So I guess the moral of the story is treat your horse like a horse not a cute toy, kid, or dog. Correct the small things before they become unmanageable or in Buck's words "chase the trouble".
Another thing with wild horses versus this horse is that they understand herd dynamics and manners. This horse not being around other horses and hand raised would probably never have experienced a situation where he was put in his place like a foal would have in a herd.


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## thetempest89 (Aug 18, 2013)

^^ agreeing with the comments. Watch the documentary.

This guy was oxygen deprived at birth. She did CPR on him. Maybe if he had been worked with constantly. But she broke her back, and left him be. Watching the scenes and her story ****ed me off. She was selfish, and instead of giving the best for her horse she only thought of her own feelings.


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## Bagheera (Apr 23, 2013)

Hmmmm.... my vet had a gelding attack him once when he went to give the horse it's vaccinations. The horse was totally out of hand and dangerous. It was a new client and they failed to inform him of how dangerous the horse was. My vet ended up having to lay the horse down to give the injections. I asked him why he even bothered. He said it was the principle of the thing. Once the horse was let back up, he was a different horse. He gave the owners a phone number for a local trainer and her never had a problem with him again.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I read in interview where buck was talking about the yellow stud. He said that the horse need to be handled like it was day 1 for 100 days or more before anything set in. That it might take months or years before he was safe. He said that he might have been able to help him, but his owner would not or could not keep up that type of training/handling so thats why he said to put him down. He also said the horse had attacked someone standing on the fence, but that was between shoots so they did not get it on film. 

I don't understand how people let their horses get like this. I may treat my mare like a dog sometimes but the moment she steps out of line she is in HUGE trouble. The BO's grand kids sometimes help them clean the stalls, feed and turn the horses out. My mare HAS to be behaved enough for a 7 year old to handle her. I make it to where in can have a piece of string just draped behind her ears and she will act like she is haltered. Im not a trainer, All i did was get on her for everything she did until she stopped all the silliness. Its not hard, just takes consistency.

Looking at what this lady did to this stud makes me sick, there are SO MANY good horses out there that are now condemned because their humans failed them.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

My approach would have been to get him gelded before doing anything. 
Put some Dormosedan gel in a feed bucket, let him eat, and have the vet take care of the rest.

Once he was fully recovered from that, he would be turned out with the bossiest mare I could find, and eventually moved into a herd. I don't think the horse was brain damaged at all. I think he just did not learn proper social skills- being around other stallions made him think of fighting like a stallion, yet he did not have his mom or another mare to teach him manners.

Once he adapted to herd life, I think then it would be the right time to begin training. Hopefully by then he has had a mental adjustment. I know several mares who would most definitely put a horse like him in his place. 

What else did the trainer do wrong? I don't know why he started with desensitization instead of training for respect. Another thing I noticed is that he keeps that lunge line too short. He is actually within kicking range several times. If you watch Clinton Anderson work with horses, he keeps those horses out of his space! I don't know why you would want a strange, possibly aggressive horse that close to you! 

It is very sad that the horse lost his life. I'm sure there were warning signs long before it ever got this bad. The owner is at fault. It is the owner's responsibility to provide as natural an environment as possible. She failed to geld him, she failed to socialize him properly, and she failed again by taking him to a clinic, instead of sending him to a trainer who would spend the time to fix the problem. 

Reminds me of my neighbor who bought a 2 yr old stallion for their 13 yr old. The horse is kept completely isolated from other horses and is a total nut. At this rate they are going to be reported for animal abuse- their response to the horse's aggression is to feed him less! :shock: I even offered to trailer him to the vet for gelding, but they "didn't have the money".:-x


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Bagheera said:


> Hmmmm.... my vet had a gelding attack him once when he went to give the horse it's vaccinations. The horse was totally out of hand and dangerous. It was a new client and they failed to inform him of how dangerous the horse was. My vet ended up having to lay the horse down to give the injections. I asked him why he even bothered. He said it was the principle of the thing. Once the horse was let back up, he was a different horse. He gave the owners a phone number for a local trainer and her never had a problem with him again.


My pinto Looby tried to kill our vet the first time he came to do her shots and blood tests - I'd only had her a week. She is a horse that had learnt to attack to defend herself from abuse - identifying the different sorts of 'aggressive behaviour' is really important when you're dealing with it because getting confrontational with a horse like that only increases the problem
I used positive reinforcement & CT (which (CT) was totally new to me) and she now stands happily for her shots, blood tests and dental work.
We had a colt that was oxygen deprived at birth but he didn't grow up to be aggressive or mentally challenged - the colt in that video looked very alert and responded to all the shouts from the 'audience'


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## Bagheera (Apr 23, 2013)

I totally get what you are saying. I've retrained a few horses over the years and have only worked with two aggressive horses. I was all about the positive reinforcement with those two horses. The impression I got from my vet, was that that horse was aggressive and dangerous in general. He is one of the best vets I've ever known and is exceptional with all horses. If he said he needed to lay that horse down, then I'm positive that the horse needed to be laid down. My point was that sometimes, for safety reasons, you can't spend six months earning a horse's respect so they don't attack you. You have to earn that respect immediately. In my eyes, their is nothing wrong with either approach. They are just different techniques to achieve a result.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

First thing man did wrong? Was that he worked with this horse in front of crowd, and camera. He was in a rush because of that I think, and he also ignored the signs that said horse had had enough.

Of which there were more than enough to have told him to QUIT!

This is one reason I dislike the current fad of "oh let's go do a clinic and fix a broken horse" trend by the way.

Horse was spoiled, or a fool, or both. Owner was ineffectual at best I would say. 

Bottom line is, there was NO WAY it would have turned out differently, because of the filming and the crowd. This type of thing should not be a circus entertainment for wannabe horse owners, but should have been done quietly, and safely.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I am thinking they knew he was aggressive, but underestimated to what level.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

subbing to read more later


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I think Palomino has an interesting observation about the pressure of a camera on the situation and the pressure of a two or three day colt starting clinic. Than again, the fact that this horse reacted the way he did, indicates that the owner was unable to handle him. So, in the event that they had a trainer working with them everyday would they have made those changes? I see this horse as being a horse that needed a completely new start i.e., New owner, new rules, no testicles and a new beginning. The problem is that while a not terrible looking horse, I don't know that he was special enough to get those things. Would anyone really want to take on this kind of a project horse? 

That said on the gelding front, I know someone who lost a finger to a stallion similar to this. The horse was tranquilized and had just been gelded by the doctor when the horse got him and took a finger with him. Tranquilization/sedation does not make a horse safe, they are tranquilized or sedated not dead.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Bagheera said:


> I totally get what you are saying. I've retrained a few horses over the years and have only worked with two aggressive horses. I was all about the positive reinforcement with those two horses. The impression I got from my vet, was that that horse was aggressive and dangerous in general. He is one of the best vets I've ever known and is exceptional with all horses. If he said he needed to lay that horse down, then I'm positive that the horse needed to be laid down. My point was that sometimes, for safety reasons, you can't spend six months earning a horse's respect so they don't attack you. You have to earn that respect immediately. In my eyes, their is nothing wrong with either approach. They are just different techniques to achieve a result.


Don't get me wrong - my vet also said my mare was dangerous and told me to send her back. His wife was killed by a similar sort of horse when she was assisting him in some medical procedure so he has good reason to be extra careful. 
We had to 'drop' her the first time on the same principle as your vet used but it wasn't something that I felt could be done each time she had to have a shot because the experience made her worse not better so it was either she accepted it without a fight or she went


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

Canterklutz said:


> You can watch the whole thing online here too.
> 
> Watch Buck Online Free Putlocker | Putlocker - Watch Movies Online Free


Please don't use this link! It's a pirate site and that's ^^ a pirated copy of the movie. It's on iTunes for $3.99. Support the people who made and starred in the movie (Buck is one of them).


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

That horse was dangerous, yes. Could he have been rehabilitated under other circumstances? I don't know. I wasn't there, I didn't see the horse in person and I won't make that sort of judgement based on 20 minutes of edited video in a documentary. If he had been in my barn, I likely never would have trusted him even if his attitude _did _turn around, but that's neither here nor there.

As for what the guy did wrong, as others have said, one part of it is that they underestimated the horse. Another part is that the guy probably got tunnel vision.

I don't know how many of you have ever been in a situation with a dangerous horse (or person) where you life literally hangs in the balance. Tunnel vision happens to almost everyone and if you happen to focus on the wrong thing (like the horse's feet instead of his attitude), then you simply miss everything else.

Watching the video from the safety of my couch, I saw that coming a mile away, but having been in similar situations myself I can attest to how quickly things go from "Oh, I've got this under control" to "OMG, how the hell did _that _happen" with no warning signs that you recognize until long after the dust clears and the blood dries.

In a barn with an owner like Buck himself or Cherie, the horse likely could have been turned around and made a nice horse for a very experienced owner/rider but with the owner he had? That horse had zero chance at all. Even if Buck had managed to get him going in the right direction, the horse would have reverted the second he was back home simply because his owner had no idea how to handle him. If she did, then he never would have become the monster he was in the first place.

As for the whole "brain damage" excuse. I don't believe for one second that was what made the horse the way he was. IMHO, what he was came solely from his raising....and the fact that he was still a stud.


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## tzoidbk (Nov 26, 2013)

Well in my opinion that guy was too forward. You would want the horse to understand that you, or any human, is not going to take it's head off. But what is he doing right away?? Shoving stuff onto it's back and chasing it. Not saying it was okay for the horse to chew the guys face off but he could have some knowledge on what he is introducing to the horse.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

I saw only the first page of this thread a couple nights ago when I only had a minute. Looked at only the first video, of the yellow horse. Then thought about it.

It seemed to me that the horse was conditioned to fight, put in a fighting ring with spectators, an opponent entered, and the match began. 

Could by his experiences he have been sort of trained to fight? Dog fights, cock fights, street fights, gladiators, boxing. 

Oh my, I just recalled seeing a boxing match on TV years ago where one of the men died in the ring. It was brutal.


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## sparks879 (Apr 14, 2013)

When I first watched the video I had no background info. No knowledge if the horse was gelded or otherwise. the horse gave signs of attack before he attacked. He reared. Horses rear while fighting. The man didn't do anything about it. he let the horse rear, he didn't demand the respect but rather kept going. the horse took the opertunity further. he lunged and bit.


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## Dualy2006 (Nov 28, 2013)

I cant see the video... awks


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## Dualy2006 (Nov 28, 2013)

You can't just go in and start throwing a sack at a horse, he should have taken it slow and got the horse to trust him slowly then very slwoly introduced the sack, desensitized him to it. When the horse is freaking out because he's swinging a sack at him, obviously nothing good is going to come from that. Its his fault he got hurt.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Like others, I don't know for sure if this horse could have been a decent anything with a different owner. But, I do think Buck was kind not to call the owner out on her excuse. 

Freaking ay. And she supposedly had 17-18 other stallions? Ai!


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