# camping with wranglers



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

So, here is my ideal long vacation:

Haul out to wilderness trailhead. Pack mules and wranglers are waiting for us, they load up the personal gear we brought and we head out. Other wranglers have already ridden out the camp spot and by the time we get there, tents are up and dinner is cooked. We sit around the campfire (that they built) and sing songs and drink beer under the stars. The next day, we groom and feed our own horses, saddle up, and proceed to another wilderness camp where by gosh the same thing happens -- we get there, saddle sore and hungry, and camp is already waiting for us. Continue in huge loop for a couple weeks until we get back to the original trailhead.

Points: we are riding our *own* horses, and the whole thing takes place away from roads, parking lots, generators, motor homes, live-in trailers, flush toilets, computers, phones, four-poster beds . . . 

Does any outfit do this? I don't want to ride a dude-string horse ever again if I can help it. Nor ride in a nose to tail line with people in sneakers and shorts with their toes pointing down holding on to the saddle horn. But, I am not up for learning how to horse camp in the wilderness all by myself. Nor do I know anybody personally to teach me. I'd be happy to pay if such an outfit exists. 

Ideas?


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## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

I wouldn't bet on finding an outfit like that. Bringing outside horses into a functioning operation is asking for a headache. Your best bet is finding experienced horse campers in your area and see if you can tag along.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

6gun Kid said:


> I wouldn't bet on finding an outfit like that. Bringing outside horses into a functioning operation is asking for a headache. Your best bet is finding experienced horse campers in your area and see if you can tag along.


Yeah, I was thinking that if I was a wrangler I would hate having to deal with unknown horses.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Check out these maybe?

Bring your own horse! Guest ranch vacations with a difference


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

Join a trail riding club that camps out on the weekends so you learn how to camp with a horse. It's an adventure, but is really fun. From that experience you could branch out to some of the Guest Ranch vacations where you can take your horse, assuming that your horse has some "cow".


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Prairie said:


> Join a trail riding club that camps out on the weekends so you learn how to camp with a horse. It's an adventure, but is really fun. From that experience you could branch out to some of the Guest Ranch vacations where you can take your horse, assuming that your horse has some "cow".


I have done some with my local trail riding club. But their idea of camping is parking their living quarters trailers in a horse-designated lot inside a park, and doing a few leisurely day rides from there. It's okay, but frankly it's too much like car camping for me, something I have done way more of than I want to think about. 

Doubt my horse is very cowy but you never know. She's bright, athletic, smallish, and raised around cattle, she would probably give it a go. I'll look into it!


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## Rain Shadow (May 1, 2014)

They do a 'cattle drive' around here that is similiar to that. Its for charity and you bring your own horse, but its usually a ton of people. 

Perhaps look into some of the cattle drives and see if they allow outsiders.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Rain Shadow said:


> They do a 'cattle drive' around here that is similiar to that. Its for charity and you bring your own horse, but its usually a ton of people.
> 
> Perhaps look into some of the cattle drives and see if they allow outsiders.


Truth is, I don't like crowds and I don't have any romantic feelings toward cows. That's why I haven't really pursued the cattle drive thing. There's some big ones in CA too that are open to outside riders. The person I know who went on one (it's like across the Sierras) said it was really arduous (up at dawn, in the saddle all day, difficult terrain), own horses were not allowed, and the dust was outrageous. She had a good time though.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Wish you lived around here! We'd head out to my woodlot and learn together. 

I don't like crowds either, but going out alone doesn't appeal to me unless I have a safe place to go. 

Have you reached out to others in your trail riding group who might be open to a more rustic style camping? Maybe some have camps or land that you could set up on. Get some spouses out there ahead of the riders to set it all up?


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Acadianartist said:


> Wish you lived around here! We'd head out to my woodlot and learn together.
> 
> I don't like crowds either, but going out alone doesn't appeal to me unless I have a safe place to go.
> 
> Have you reached out to others in your trail riding group who might be open to a more rustic style camping? Maybe some have camps or land that you could set up on. Get some spouses out there ahead of the riders to set it all up?


Maybe. I'm not very social is one of the problems, obviously. An acquaintance just got back from her vacation house at Tahoe where she did some riding. Lots of trails up there! Maybe I should cultivate her friendship . . . but she's another who doesn't really camp at all, just day rides. 

Truth is, people who willingly sleep on the ground in a tent, far away from any road, are a very limited group. And those who like to do this with horses is much smaller than that. 

The two things I really don't like doing in the wilderness is cook, and get lost. I just need to travel with someone who has a sense of direction and likes cooking.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Avna said:


> Maybe. I'm not very social is one of the problems, obviously. An acquaintance just got back from her vacation house at Tahoe where she did some riding. Lots of trails up there! Maybe I should cultivate her friendship . . . but she's another who doesn't really camp at all, just day rides.
> 
> Truth is, people who willingly sleep on the ground in a tent, far away from any road, are a very limited group. And those who like to do this with horses is much smaller than that.
> 
> The two things I really don't like doing in the wilderness is cook, and get lost. I just need to travel with someone who has a sense of direction and likes cooking.


Well that rules me out! LOL. But I know people who do like all those things (just not on horseback) so it must be possible. 

Do let us know if you find something. Have you thought of just starting a Facebook group? Maybe there are people out there looking for the same thing you are. You don't have to be very sociable to start a Facebook group


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

I think the closest you will get to your requirements will be a "bring your own horse Dude Ranch"

I Googled that phrase and got some hits, this being one of them.
Bring Your Own Horse to these Dramatic Dude Ranch Spaces ~

You could Google "bring your own horse to a dude ranch" and see what else comes up, if this site doesn't have anything to meet your criteria.

We've camped with our horses a lot but we either had our travel trailers and came back to camp at night, or we went up to our cabins and still came back to camp at night. We always had a campfire but cooking was done before we left home and food carried with us. if we were at my friends grandparents camp, where the horses were safe, we went to the nearby roadhouse for food and beverage


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

learn to do,it yourself
There are limitations when going on organized rides, such as location etc, trail routes, plus i for one, don't like big group rides-where is the fun or adventure in that?
Unless feed is hauled in,or packed in, are your own horses going to be okay with being picketed to graze?
Yea, cooking not my favorite, over camp stoves, but one can make uncomplicated meals , versus fancy meals, out there, as after riding all day, simple things taste just fine


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

We often do day rides, so have the trailer to come back to, or even haul home, but if you really want to see wilderness, get away from people that just ride within a day's ride or less from the camp ground, then you have to pack in. No motorized vehicles allowed, even where there are old reclaimed roads
I have seen and been places , packing in, that I never would have gotten to otherwise. That way out trumps needing to cook, set up camp, ect


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

IMO Your best bet is so find someone to tag along with. I'm usually fair game to take people along with me as long as they are tough and non-whiny and their horses get along with ours. Just got back from an 8 day trip and I couldn't get anybody to go with us.

And honestly, camping with horses out in the wilderness is pretty darn easy, especially if there is grocery out there for the horses. Packing in food for them is a pain.

We prefer to sleep in hammocks, sleeping on the ground is too painful for me. Haven't found a good enough mat yet.


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

Smilie said:


> I have seen and been places , packing in, that I never would have gotten to otherwise. That way out trumps needing to cook, set up camp, ect


Exactly. 

One can do ultralite horse camping. You carry everything on the horse you need. Its enjoyable and freeing

I would in the future like to get a Seek Outside Tipi. 
To be warm, dry and ultralight would be wonderful!!


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

@Avna - my sister is planning on doing twice yearly stagecoach runs from Flagstaff to the Grand Canyon with full wrangler support (i.e. you arrive to a full camp set up and steak or ribs slow cooking on the grill) each night. She's planning on making a test run this fall to determine how far the stage can safely go each day (13-18 miles). Once she has things arranged, she'll be determining what she'll charge for stage passengers and of course other coaches and outriders will also be allowed. Join fees will depend on number of people and how much the wrangler support costs will be. I'll keep you posted if you're interested.

I thing the total distance is around 70 miles, so she's thinking 5-6 days. It'll be a one way trip, but she'll also arrange to have transportation back to the starting point to pick up your vehicle/trailer. Or - you could have someone drop you off and then pick you up at the end point.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

ChitChatChet said:


> One can do ultralite horse camping. You carry everything on the horse you need.


Ah, but can you carry everything the horse needs? Maybe your part of Idaho has better grazing than hereabouts. Then there's the problem of getting your horse(s) to stick around at night. I know it's possible to learn to deal with these things, but there's a learning curve.

For the OP, I'd suggest starting with something midway between that and parking your living quarters trailer in a campground. Start by going to the campground (like lthe Forest Service ones that are set up for horses), but with a lightweight tent &c instead of the living quarters. Then work up to dispersed camping, where you just find a likely spot to park your horse trailer, and make day trips from there.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

We generally try to run high lines between trees to tether the horses. It gives them room to move and graze and even lie down. We've only ever had one get tangled, but since he was familiar with high lining, he just stood patiently until my sister untangled him.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Between the logistics/legality of it, plus the relatively small demographic they'd be catering to, honestly, I think you're going to have a hard time finding exactly what you're looking for.
Let us know if/when you find something!

Smilie, your photos are absolutely stunning. It looks like you've been on some really incredible adventures!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

ChitChatChet said:


> IMO Your best bet is so find someone to tag along with. I'm usually fair game to take people along with me as long as they are tough and non-whiny and their horses get along with ours. Just got back from an 8 day trip and I couldn't get anybody to go with us.
> 
> And honestly, camping with horses out in the wilderness is pretty darn easy, especially if there is grocery out there for the horses. Packing in food for them is a pain.
> 
> We prefer to sleep in hammocks, sleeping on the ground is too painful for me. Haven't found a good enough mat yet.


Invite me! 
My horse gets along with everybody so far. As long as I have strong hot coffee I am not whiny. Otherwise, look out.


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## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

ReiningCatsandDogs posted this ranch:
If it’s a little luxury you’re after with your horse, head to Triple Creek Ranch in Montana, which provides guest ranch vacations with diverse riding opportunities and ultimate flexibility. From intimate guided trail rides, to cattle work and bison herding, to extreme wilderness rides, Triple Creek will make sure you and your horse have an adventure to remember!

Sounds like "extreme wilderness rides" is what you are looking for?


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

Avna said:


> Invite me!
> My horse gets along with everybody so far. As long as I have strong hot coffee I am not whiny. Otherwise, look out.


Hot coffee I make every morning!!!


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

jamesqf said:


> Ah, but can you carry everything the horse needs? Maybe your part of Idaho has better grazing than hereabouts. Then there's the problem of getting your horse(s) to stick around at night. I know it's possible to learn to deal with these things, but there's a learning curve.


Yep. We get everything need for camping. We also go where we know there will be groceries for the horses.

We highline for night time. Grazing before dark and at first light. The Forest Service like people to hightline as it does less damage than tie to a tree.

Really isnt much of a learning curve IMO.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

My mother went to Bitterroot Ranch in Wyoming.

I don't think your own horse is allowed, and they do day rides (back to base) not super camping out, BUT they were amazing and may be a great contact if you're serious about it. Won't hurt to call them.

I have heard of places to bring your own horse, though I don't know about that type or riding (I wouldn't want the liability of overdoing someone's backyard pasture puff or whatever).


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I know how to camp in wilderness carrying what I need on my back. I'd need some pointers to add the horse to the mix -- how to high line, how to feed, and so forth. But mostly I need people to go with. 

There was just a Trail Rider Magazine poll on "your ideal horse camping" or something and like 80% checked the living quarters trailer box. I'm always the one with the weird tastes I guess.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

Trailmeister used to be a regular poster here with tips and reviews, luckily their website is still active https://www.trailmeister.com/. Some good information on the site about knots, high lines and such.

What I would do if you can't find someone to learn with. Trailer to an area that you can horse camp in that's not crowded (I agree with you on crowds). Purchase yourself some light camping gear and haul it along with you on the day trips. That way you can figure out what you do and don't need while still having the support of your vehicle.

Here's some tips from my learning horse camping.

-If using a tent and have two people, share the tent instead of hauling along two.

-Water is to heavy to haul but you'll need a lot of it...Outfits sell hand pumps, charcoal filters and chlorine tabs. Test it out before going on your first trip, it sucks to have a pump that doesn't work (happened to someone in a group I was in). 

-Freeze dried food is expensive but boy is it light, just add water you collected from that stream. Experiment with the size of pack you will end up needing, why? A single serving pack might leave you hungry after a hard day of riding. Best thing, preparing a meal takes minutes! Mix it up and eat out of the plastic bag it came in to keep down on dirty dishes.

-Want hot food? You can pack one of those small propane tanks and stove top combos along with a small pot to boil water in. Add a cup and you can have hot coffee, tea or cocoa. When the meal is done you can now wash your stuff. It's handy to have along. 

-Practice tethering your horse out (at home) so it can graze, the more grazing your horse can do the less food you have to haul along. One of the tips is use a single hoof hobble attached to a rope that's staked out. Thread the rope through a hunk of old hose garden hose 6 foot or so long and now it's much harder to wrap around their legs. With practice, horses get to be very rope smart. With multiple horses you can use grazing hobbles as they'll likely stick together, but it's not a good idea to turn all the horses out at once. Keep one tied up just incase they decide to take off in a group so you have a riding horse to go collect them. Alternative is to spend a couple hours hand grazing your horse morning and evening.

-Practice using a high line at home. 

-1 gallon zip lock bag holds about 3lbs of grain and is easy to pack.

-Keep food items locked up in something that can't be chewed through, rodents will get into your food stock. Another tip, even if the food is locked up in a hard plastic container they can still smell it and will chew through your bags/clothing to get to it. I was camping with a guy that had some expensive clothing chewed through to get at his horses grain.

-Take a shammy towel with you for washing up with, they dry quickly so you don't have to worry about them molding over several days of travel.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Avna said:


> I know how to camp in wilderness carrying what I need on my back. I'd need some pointers to add the horse to the mix -- how to high line, how to feed, and so forth. But mostly I need people to go with.
> 
> There was just a Trail Rider Magazine poll on "your ideal horse camping" or something and like 80% checked the living quarters trailer box. I'm always the one with the weird tastes I guess.


Wrong part of the country for me to help you. I camp very light so I can carry enough feed. I'll attach some photos so you can get an idea of what I mean. I don't trailer out to someplace. I just ride out my driveway and turn left or right. Ride until I need to find a place to camp. Repeat until I return home. It's not something you do if comfort is a high priority .

I'd suggest not using a high line. Train to picket and hobble that way you're not dependent on trees or polls and the horse can move around some.

Photos:
1 is heading home from camping with my experienced older mare. A friend saw me and pulled over to take a picture. I was still about 20 miles from home in that photo, but would be home that afternoon.

2 is my younger mare loaded up for some camping training. i.e. short trips and controlled areas.

3 is my younger mare on a training trip we took 3 weeks ago when deer season opened. She's standing out at the end of her picket line that's attached to her hobbles. You can see the tent. The bags and gear on the blanket. Bugs were awful so we left for home the next morning.

4. Older mare waiting to get loaded so we can leave.

It's like backpacking only more work, because you have to take care of your horse. You also tend to have less for yourself. I can take more items for me when I backpack than I do when I camp from horseback, because so much of the weight is beet pulp and copra (their feed)


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

its lbs not miles said:


> I'd suggest not using a high line. Train to picket and hobble that way you're not dependent on trees or polls and the horse can move around some.


We only highline at night. They way we know they are safe and secure and not doing anything stupid. When we are awake the horses are loose grazing.

They can and often do lay down to sleep at night while highlined.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

ChitChatChet said:


> We only highline at night. They way we know they are safe and secure and not doing anything stupid. When we are awake the horses are loose grazing.
> 
> They can and often do lay down to sleep at night while highlined.


Still dependent on trees or poles to highline which might not be available or convenient . Horse can't get into any more mischief or do stupid things picketed than it could if highlined. No need to worry about damaging trees. Takes less time to picket and unpicket which is a very nice thing when it's raining. In my "not insignificant" experience (I've done both) picketing with hobbles beats anything short of camping at someone's place where they have a fenced pasture I can turn them out in.

There is one situation where highlining can be the more useful option. IF your part of a troop of riders you can get away with needing less space to "park" all your horses if you have a location that allows for highlining. Picketing a couple or few horses doesn't require a much space, but picketing a dozen mounts does so if there's a significant number of riders then a high line can be useful for making do with less room if need be.

One of many things to look at when camping out of a saddle is to look at everything from the perspective of having to do it in bad weather .


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

*@its lbs not miles* forty years ago I could do what you do. Now the population has doubled and although it feels remote here I am 25 minutes from the fourth largest conurbation in the USA. Carefree camping is not available. I wish! 

I am encouraged by your ultra-lite approach. I have the palm-size stove, the crawl-in backpacking tent and so forth. I also have all the car-camping stuff from twenty years of doing that with my family as well. A whole different set of gear. I have a lot to work out, for sure. 

A few days ago I was reading about the Pacific Crest Trail (my older sister & her husband are hiking it; they did the southern half a couple years ago but got knee trouble and now they are just doing sections every summer. They are mid-sixties in age). Hundreds of people through hike it every year and thousands do sections of it. Horses? About five people a year. That gives you an idea of the proportions of horse campers and backpackers. 

I am going to learn/teach my horse to both highline and hobble so I have choices.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Avna said:


> *@its lbs not miles* forty years ago I could do what you do. Now the population has doubled and although it feels remote here I am 25 minutes from the fourth largest conurbation in the USA. Carefree camping is not available. I wish!


Seems like you'd have a pretty long trailer ride (maybe 5 hours minimum?) to get to anywhere you could really camp. Unless maybe there are places in the Coast Range south of you? (And of course, if it's not on fire when you want to go :-()


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

jamesqf said:


> Seems like you'd have a pretty long trailer ride (maybe 5 hours minimum?) to get to anywhere you could really camp. Unless maybe there are places in the Coast Range south of you? (And of course, if it's not on fire when you want to go :-()


Right now fires are cutting off southern access, it is true. An hour south of me a 100,000 acre fire has been burning for nearly two months, and probably won't be fully controlled until it starts raining. Fire season ends with the rainy season starting usually in October, and camping can be cold and miserable then. However the coast ranges do have camping opportunities within a couple hours or less. At least for hikers there are a lot of choices. 

The best season for coastal mountain camping is spring. Winter is cold, wet, and muddy. Summer, just a few miles inland from the cooling ocean, is blazing hot and absolutely dry. Fall is less hot but even drier. All the seasonal streams are bone dry and everything native that can go dormant, is. It is the ecological equivalent of February in continental climates, the nadir. 

The only season for Sierra camping (that would be your 4-5 hour drive) is summer, unless you are into snow camping. Which I have done, in the Cascades. Not a good memory. 

But I am going to try to get out and do _*something*_, I learn every time I go out. 

Montana or Wyoming dude ranching would be an adventure just getting there, it's two days' drive with two drivers, no trailer. I think I need a few more chops before attempting that but gosh it does sound fun.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

One of the things I really want to do someday is ride the Pacific Crest! My sister and I have talked about it. I think I'll be in my mid-60s before I get the chance, though.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

Avna said:


> *@its lbs not miles* forty years ago I could do what you do. Now the population has doubled and although it feels remote here I am 25 minutes from the fourth largest conurbation in the USA. Carefree camping is not available. I wish!


That's one of the problems with CA, to darn many people living in the areas where all the jobs are at! Got to say, I don't envy the traffic you must have to drive in to get to trails. It's bad enough driving down there without hauling a trailer.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Yes, the traffic is a good reason to leave the state, truthfully. I was born here and watched it all happen, over the past sixty years. Made me the misanthropic crank I am today.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Too bad we live on opposite ends of the country. That is exactly what I've been looking for. 
There is one trail ride that I know of that is similar to what you are talking about. Unfortunately, you have to have an appaloosa to do it as it is run by an appaloosa club. They ride the Nez Perce historic trail every year. A gentleman out my way does this with his horses. His wife will fly out to meet him in a different spot every year to ride with him for a week or two. He does the whole thing I think. He told me I can go but I would have to borrow a horse because I don't have an appaloosa. The whole cost for me riding the trail for a week and borrowing a horse would be about a grand. Apparently, you ride all day (not sure how many miles) and you get to set camps with food already there. About once a week you pull out your good clothes (meaning a clean pair of jeans) and there is music and dancing. Sounds like a lot of fun to me and I might just join those two next year. It's something to look into though. Even though you would have to borrow a horse, I don't think it's like a dude string ranch horse like you are thinking.


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

Change said:


> One of the things I really want to do someday is ride the Pacific Crest! My sister and I have talked about it. I think I'll be in my mid-60s before I get the chance, though.


Somebody near us took their large horses and did a section of the trail. I was wondering why they took large horses as that is a lot more food to pack/worry about. I'll have to ask around and see how they did.

While volunteering down in Hells Canyon I met the Wedding Dress Hiker and a few other people getting in shape for hiking Pacific Crest or El Camino.


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

LoriF said:


> Too bad we live on opposite ends of the country. That is exactly what I've been looking for.
> There is one trail ride that I know of that is similar to what you are talking about. Unfortunately, you have to have an appaloosa to do it as it is run by an appaloosa club. They ride the Nez Perce historic trail every year. A gentleman out my way does this with his horses. His wife will fly out to meet him in a different spot every year to ride with him for a week or two. He does the whole thing I think. He told me I can go but I would have to borrow a horse because I don't have an appaloosa. The whole cost for me riding the trail for a week and borrowing a horse would be about a grand. Apparently, you ride all day (not sure how many miles) and you get to set camps with food already there. About once a week you pull out your good clothes (meaning a clean pair of jeans) and there is music and dancing. Sounds like a lot of fun to me and I might just join those two next year. It's something to look into though. Even though you would have to borrow a horse, I don't think it's like a dude string ranch horse like you are thinking.


Hmm the Chief Joseph Trail Ride? Its a progressive trail ride where a section of trail is ridden each year. I think you have to tear down and pack up your stuff each morning so that volunteers can take it to the next camp site.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

We used to picket our horses out all night to graze, until after the time we were once packed in, about 7 hours from base camp, and a blizzard hit during the night
The place were we camped, only had buck brush to picket to. One mare had been on the track, and was still being er trained from halter pulling, so we left her loose always
For some reason, we had the pack horse, that doubled as our kid's ridding horse, tied close to camp. In the morning, he was all that was left
I quickl;y saddled up, did not even bother to grab my slicker, and tired to catch them, not knowing how far they had gone. Wet snow was falling, and I got soaked, but did not really notice, pushing that little horse to trot most of the way. Those horses were almost back to the Ya Ha, before I caught up to them.
Tailed them up, and headed back.,By now I was very cold and wet.
After that, our horses only get picked out until dark, and then are tied solid for the night


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Avna said:


> An hour south of me a 100,000 acre fire has been burning for nearly two months...


Yeah, we've been getting a lot of the smoke from that :-(



> The only season for Sierra camping (that would be your 4-5 hour drive) is summer, unless you are into snow camping.


Actually in the northern part of the Sierra, say north of I-80, after Labor Day can be the best time for riding & camping, since most of the summer visitors have left, and it's gotten a bit cooler. Not something you can really plan too far in advance, though, as the weather can be a bit changeable. 

IIRC, my friend once told me about working a ride like you wanted, along the same trail used for the Tevis Cup. Took several days to do, with camp & food set up each night.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

jamesqf said:


> Yeah, we've been getting a lot of the smoke from that :-(
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will keep my ears open . . . 
I got snowed out of John Muir Wilderness mid-september one year. We didn't have winter gear with us. Luckily we had set up base camp only about 12 miles in. Up that high winter is kinda unpredictable.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Avna said:


> I got snowed out of John Muir Wilderness mid-september one year.


I can remember more than one year when I did my first cross-country skiing in September - at ~9000 ft elevation. Of course the snow then melted, and it was sunny & warm through October. But north of I-80 the elevations are much lower - 6000-7000 ft for most places you'd ride.


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

jamesqf said:


> I can remember more than one year when I did my first cross-country skiing in September - at ~9000 ft elevation. Of course the snow then melted, and it was sunny & warm through October. But north of I-80 the elevations are much lower - 6000-7000 ft for most places you'd ride.


I have noticed that for our area September is cold, wet and often snowy in the higher elevations. Then October comes along and we can get back out and enjoy the good weather sans mosquitoes!


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

ChitChatChet said:


> Hmm the Chief Joseph Trail Ride? Its a progressive trail ride where a section of trail is ridden each year. I think you have to tear down and pack up your stuff each morning so that volunteers can take it to the next camp site.


You are so right. He did say that it is sections of the trail each year. I think this year is going through Idaho but don't quote me on it. I would like to participate when it's going through Yosemite. That would be pretty cool.


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

LoriF said:


> You are so right. He did say that it is sections of the trail each year. I think this year is going through Idaho but don't quote me on it. I would like to participate when it's going through Yosemite. That would be pretty cool.


I think one year they jet boated horses across the Snake if I am not mistaken. Or somebody jet boated their horses across the Snake when they followed the trail. 

Would be fun to ride through Yellowstone!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

ChitChatChet said:


> I think one year they jet boated horses across the Snake if I am not mistaken. Or somebody jet boated their horses across the Snake when they followed the trail.
> 
> Would be fun to ride through Yellowstone!


Gosh, wouldn't it?


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

LoriF said:


> I think this year is going through Idaho but don't quote me on it. I would like to participate when it's going through Yosemite. That would be pretty cool.


I think you might need to check your GPS, 'cause if you're going through Yosemite, you're really lost


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

jamesqf said:


> I think you might need to check your GPS, 'cause if you're going through Yosemite, you're really lost


But having fun!


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Avna said:


> But having fun!


Thank you Avna for rescuing me, I was running out of food too. I think Yosemite came out of my brain because I was just talking to my brother about it this morning, but it would be fun to ride there too.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Subbing.....


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Here's one. I Googled "bring your own horse wilderness outfitters". There are others.

"Horse Owners Vacation
This is a great way to enjoy the back country with your own horse. The professionals at Sawtooth Wilderness Outfitters will provide a comfortable camp, great outdoor cooking, pack stock, horse feed and will be there to help you improve your back country skills and learn new ones. This trip is for the novice horse owner, the experienced horseman with limited stock and equipment, or those that would like to enjoy the back country and not be burdened with the chores of packing camp and meal preparations. 

These trips can be customized to your desired length of stay and destination within the Sawtooth Wilderness. 

Cost of trip: $200.00 per person per day plus tax."

Horseback riding vacation, trail rides, equestrian horse vacation, wilderness adventure travel.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Hondo said:


> Here's one. I Googled "bring your own horse wilderness outfitters". There are others.
> 
> "Horse Owners Vacation
> This is a great way to enjoy the back country with your own horse. The professionals at Sawtooth Wilderness Outfitters will provide a comfortable camp, great outdoor cooking, pack stock, horse feed and will be there to help you improve your back country skills and learn new ones. This trip is for the novice horse owner, the experienced horseman with limited stock and equipment, or those that would like to enjoy the back country and not be burdened with the chores of packing camp and meal preparations.
> ...


we have a winner! This is pretty exactly what I was talking about. Sawtooths are about 14 hours from me, so it'd be a big adventure. Sounds worth it though.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I spent 4 summers in the Sawtooths. Awesome country. I seriously doubt you'll be disappointed.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Do you ever do any riding at La Honda Creek Open Space Preserve which is just South of Alice's Restaurant on Skyline Boulevard West of Redwood City? Some of it is open to horses, I don't know how much. Used to be about 150 miles of trails there.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Hondo said:


> Do you ever do any riding at La Honda Creek Open Space Preserve which is just South of Alice's Restaurant on Skyline Boulevard West of Redwood City? Some of it is open to horses, I don't know how much. Used to be about 150 miles of trails there.


I haven't. Good to know! There are a lot of midpeninsula open space preserve trails I have yet to explore. My parents live in one on the other side of Skyline, Fremont Older, and I could park a trailer at their house. Otherwise it's often hard to find a pull out big enough for a rig.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

There is an overlook, Skegs Point, near the entrance. It's fairly large but don't know about regulations for parking. A lot can change in 30 years. The website says permits are required now which is new. Who knows, they may even have parking now. Just have to give them a call if/when interested. I'm afraid it "may" a little late for the Sawtooths this year. Winter comes early up there. Unless you like chilly camps with big fires which is not bad unless a snow storm comes through.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Oh my! There is a large list! Some do mention equestrian parking for any size rig. Something to do while dreaming of the Sawtooths.

Search | Midpeninsula Regional Open Space District


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Smilie said:


> We used to picket our horses out all night to graze, until after the time we were once packed in, about 7 hours from base camp, and a blizzard hit during the night
> The place were we camped, only had buck brush to picket to.


I don't know that I've ever seen anyone use "brush" for picketing. That puts you in the same situation as a highline where you need something available to attach to and you run the risk of them getting tangled up. A picket pin is the best way to picket. 




Smilie said:


> One mare had been on the track, and was still being er trained from halter pulling, so we left her loose always


This is why we use hobbles and attach the picket line to the hobble.

I've seen lovely highline stories ). e.g. the horse is gone, but the broken halter was still on the line, or the halter is still on the loose horse, but the ring from the halter was still on the line (that time was my horse, but while camp training on my property), or one of my favorites.....the line was pulled off (thankfully not with my horse). Fortunately most of the bad highline stories I know took place with people training the horses so only a few created actual problems, but it does show a potential what can happen.


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

its lbs not miles said:


> I've seen lovely highline stories ). e.g. the horse is gone, but the broken halter was still on the line, or the halter is still on the loose horse, but the ring from the halter was still on the line (that time was my horse, but while camp training on my property), or one of my favorites.....the line was pulled off (thankfully not with my horse). Fortunately most of the bad highline stories I know took place with people training the horses so only a few created actual problems, but it does show a potential what can happen.


At least highlines are a lot safer than hobbles.

Highlined quite a few different ponies that have never been highlined before. No problems whatsoever. 

Hobbles and or picket lines however are quite a different story


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

My teacher suggested I teach my horse to hobble if only as part of her general education, and recommended working with her feet with a long soft cotton rope. But I'm not sure where to get it. Any suggestions?

My first try will be at my local marine supply which sells a zillion kinds of rope by the foot, maybe they'll have cotton too.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Here's a couple.......

Cotton Picket Rope with Bull Snaps - 30 ft-outfitterssupply.com

https://www.horseloverz.com/horse-b...supplies/cross-ties/weaver-cotton-picket-rope

Here's a 1 inch dia. But you need to braid in your own snap. http://www.knotandrope.com/store/pc/1-quot-3-Strand-Cotton-p132.htm

I'd like to hear stories about problems with pickets and hobbles.


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

> I'd like to hear stories about problems with pickets and hobbles.


Long grass gets all tangled up in the rope. Can't picket where there is brush

Its takes special rope to the horse is likely to get rope burn or garden hose covering rope. Heavy

One rope per horse. 

A stake per horse. Heavy

One hammer. Heavy

Only hobbled horses.... its amazing how fast and far they can travel.

Constant worry about them getting tangled
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Highline. One rope for a number of horses. Lightweight

No worry about rope burn.

The horses and donkeys I have dealt with required no training for highlines. It was no different for them than being tied to a hitching rail.

At night I dont have to worry about the horses while sleeping.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Do you ever wind up camping where there are no trees for highlining? I'm asking because I'm hoping to soon be out there. The horses are well trained for electric rope so I'm thinking about that also.


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

Avna said:


> My teacher suggested I teach my horse to hobble if only as part of her general education, and recommended working with her feet with a long soft cotton rope. But I'm not sure where to get it. Any suggestions?
> 
> My first try will be at my local marine supply which sells a zillion kinds of rope by the foot, maybe they'll have cotton too.


Years ago I bought my soft cotton rope from Jeffers.

Along with teaching horses to hobble general training, it needs to also include things under tails. Like lead ropes and cruppers. There are times I have had to lead a horse down a trail and the lead rope gets under my mounts tail...... needles to say an interesting ride ensues.


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

Hondo said:


> Do you ever wind up camping where there are no trees for highlining? I'm asking because I'm hoping to soon be out there. The horses are well trained for electric rope so I'm thinking about that also.


No. Where we live trees are everywhere. Last camping trip due to the fact we camped next to our vehicle most of the time we brought portable hot fencing. That was great being we camped for 8 days.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

ChitChatChet said:


> Years ago I bought my soft cotton rope from Jeffers.
> 
> Along with teaching horses to hobble general training, it needs to also include things under tails. Like lead ropes and cruppers. There are times I have had to lead a horse down a trail and the lead rope gets under my mounts tail...... needles to say an interesting ride ensues.


Yes, exactly. I always want to forestall those 'interesting' rides if I can.

I found some cotton rope on Amazon Prime for pretty reasonable. Googling 'soft cotton rope' can get into some strange areas. Erotic macrame is a thing, in case you didn't know that.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

How large of a corral did you set up and for how many horses? Did you leave halters on?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Avna said:


> I found some cotton rope on Amazon Prime for pretty reasonable.


Might want to get your instructor to check out the rope you bought....just in case.

A very low price might mean either too low of density or too small diameter. Low density could flatten under strain and become abrasive, as would too small a diameter.

If bought as a picket rope from a reputable horsey dealer then you'd be getting what most would recommend. Picket ropes to my understanding are best at a minimum 3/4" dia with 1" dia being preferred by hard core picketers.

If it is too light or low density it could also have more of a tendency to make loops and tangle.

FWIW, this is the internet.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Do you ever wind up camping where there are no trees for highlining? I'm asking because I'm hoping to soon be out there. The horses are well trained for electric rope so I'm thinking about that also.


Yes, there were trees but they were short things so we couldn't highline. We ended up tying them to individual trees. While not recommended due to the damage a horse can do to a tree, typically not much damage will be done to the trees in a single night. Now if horses are regularly tied up to a tree they, they can kill it and that's what we are trying to prevent.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

ChitChatChet said:


> The horses and donkeys I have dealt with required no training for highlines. It was no different for them than being tied to a hitching rail.


How often do you tie your horse to an actual hitching rail? I don't think I've ever even seen one, outside of Westerns.

About the only time our horses get tied is to the trailer, when we're saddling/unsaddling, maybe half an hour at a time, and of course when riding in the trailer. I would worry about asking them to stand in one spot for 8-10 hours or more. I'd think it'd be the horse equivalent of a cross-country airplane ride, in coach :-(


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Avna,

Had these additional thoughts. It might be a good idea to contact the outfitter ahead of time to ask what training they expect a horse to have as an owner furnished horse. Highlining, hobbles, picketing or whatever.

Might also inquire about the endurance conditioning they would expect the horse to have.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

jamesqf said:


> How often do you tie your horse to an actual hitching rail? I don't think I've ever even seen one, outside of Westerns.
> 
> About the only time our horses get tied is to the trailer, when we're saddling/unsaddling, maybe half an hour at a time, and of course when riding in the trailer. I would worry about asking them to stand in one spot for 8-10 hours or more. I'd think it'd be the horse equivalent of a cross-country airplane ride, in coach :-(


Out this way plenty of home owners, stables and horse camps have hitching rails as they are convenient for hitching your horse to while doing other things. If a horse can stand quietly tied to a trailer/wall/cross ties/etc they'll stand quietly at a hitching rail.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

I had a horse tear a sizable chuck out of her gaskin when picketed. Somehow, the rope got wrapped around or behind her leg and she panicked. It was a long time ago, I don't remember what kind of rope was used, but I've never been comfortable with ground pickets since. If I were camping where I couldn't use a high line, I'd go with hobbles or a portable electric corral, since my horses respect the fencing even if no power is on.


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

Hondo said:


> How large of a corral did you set up and for how many horses? Did you leave halters on?


Hmm it was roughly 30x70 feet I'd guess. 

We did end up splitting up the pen as 1 pony kept running the others every so often. No sleep for us as our hammocks where right next to the ponies. 

Halters where left on. The pen was put in a cleared area where they wouldn't catch halters on anything. 

We had a small tub for water. 


4 ponies ranging from 12.3 to 14.2 hands. The portable pen was perfect size for them. They grazed after the days ride in the meadow next to camp. At dark they where put into their pen and fed soaked hay pellets. Morning they where again fed soaked hay pellets and then off an hour later for our days ride. They grazed during the ride too.


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

jamesqf said:


> How often do you tie your horse to an actual hitching rail? I don't think I've ever even seen one, outside of Westerns.
> 
> About the only time our horses get tied is to the trailer, when we're saddling/unsaddling, maybe half an hour at a time, and of course when riding in the trailer. I would worry about asking them to stand in one spot for 8-10 hours or more. I'd think it'd be the horse equivalent of a cross-country airplane ride, in coach :-(



Hitching rail is in our yard. Most horse folks around here have a hitching rail at their places.

Most trail heads around here also have a hitching rails. Backcountry horsemen have installed them for the forest service. 

Highlines imo are more comfortable than a hitching rail for a horse. They can move all over, it's springy so they can lay down. With a hitching rail they can't lay down easily or at all nor can they move around.

We ride ultralight. .. no way to take portable fence posts with us.


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

Darrin said:


> Yes, there were trees but they were short things so we couldn't highline. We ended up tying them to individual trees. While not recommended due to the damage a horse can do to a tree, typically not much damage will be done to the trees in a single night. Now if horses are regularly tied up to a tree they, they can kill it and that's what we are trying to prevent.


I have seen tree's damaged in less than an hour. See many places where someone has tied their horse overnight to a tree. .. whereas highline is amazingly much less damage.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Change said:


> If I were camping where I couldn't use a high line, I'd go with hobbles or a portable electric corral, since my horses respect the fencing even if no power is on.


That's the route I'm thinking of. My yard/horse pen is electric on three sides and I haven't turned it on in over a year. They remember!

For camping I'm thinking of hobbles during the night so if frightened they won't get up a head of steam and run through the fence. Here's the kit I've been thinking about. It is 17.5 pounds where weight is precious but it's versatility which allows the horse freedom might be worth the extra weight. And the weight of other options could be subtracted from the 17.5 pounds leaving less actual additional weight than the 17.5 pounds. And it packs into a 24 inch bag.

http://www.statelinetack.com/item/p...xPw_wcB&kwid=77810220948x8867966388x214863228


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

Hondo said:


> That's the route I'm thinking of. My yard/horse pen is electric on three sides and I haven't turned it on in over a year. They remember!
> 
> For camping I'm thinking of hobbles during the night so if frightened they won't get up a head of steam and run through the fence. Here's the kit I've been thinking about. It is 17.5 pounds where weight is precious but it's versatility which allows the horse freedom might be worth the extra weight. And the weight of other options could be subtracted from the 17.5 pounds leaving less actual additional weight than the 17.5 pounds. And it packs into a 24 inch bag.
> 
> http://www.statelinetack.com/item/p...xPw_wcB&kwid=77810220948x8867966388x214863228


Have you seen how fast a horse can go with hobbles on? Some horses figure out how to travel very quickly.

Our horses when living on our place are contained with hot wire so they are used to it. We dont have anybody bolting through. Often time the fence isn't even on


17.5 lbs is too heavy for us. Would be ok if we took a pack horse. But then a pack horse takes up precious room so for us ultralight is the way to go where our mount carries our gear plus us.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

ChitChatChet said:


> Have you seen how fast a horse can go with hobbles on? Some horses figure out how to travel very quickly.
> 
> Our horses when living on our place are contained with hot wire so they are used to it. We dont have anybody bolting through. Often time the fence isn't even on
> 
> ...


No, haven't seen it but I've been told. Three way hobble I've also been told is the cure. My horses are only at the stage of training where they are fairly clumsy with the two way hobbles. I doubt they'll ever be used enough for them to figure it out.

Just in case a deer or something knocked the fence down and they got spooked I'd like a little extra insurance even though they'd likely not go far.

My understanding of ultralite packing is that two riders are usually needed. Plus with both Hondo and Rimmey right at 14hh I don't want to over load them. And I enjoy doing a little trail work and need tools for that.

And besides, Hondo is a happier horse with Rimmey along.

But agreed, an electric fence would not be an item to take on an ultralite trip.


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

Hondo said:


> No, haven't seen it but I've been told. Three way hobble I've also been told is the cure. My horses are only at the stage of training where they are fairly clumsy with the two way hobbles. I doubt they'll ever be used enough for them to figure it out.
> 
> Just in case a deer or something knocked the fence down and they got spooked I'd like a little extra insurance even though they'd likely not go far.
> 
> ...


Well,that's perfect if you have a horse that ought to go along anyway!!

I'd say if your horses are fine at home with electric then they'll be fine out camping too.

Three-way hobbles I haven't been able to figure out yet. Know of any good pictures online? or have any advice for me?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

No advice but here's a picture. They are just one additional hobble on one hind attached to one front.

https://www.horseloverz.com/horse-equipment/horse-training-aids-equipment/training-aids-equipment/three-way-hobbles


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Darrin said:


> Out this way plenty of home owners, stables and horse camps have hitching rails as they are convenient for hitching your horse to while doing other things. If a horse can stand quietly tied to a trailer/wall/cross ties/etc they'll stand quietly at a hitching rail.


I've seen many hitching rails myself. Where horses are mainly housed outside, as they are in the West, hitching rails are a common sight.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Hondo said:


> That's the route I'm thinking of. My yard/horse pen is electric on three sides and I haven't turned it on in over a year. They remember!


Rather than spending the $200+ for the rig at Stateline, check out your local TSC or feed store. You can pick up the folding step in sticks, roll a small coil of your electric tape or cord (I bed you have and it'll weigh a lot less and won't cost as much. You can also pick up collapsible water/feed buckets. Assuming you're already investing in packs/panniers, it won't even take much room!


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

ChitChatChet said:


> I have seen tree's damaged in less than an hour. See many places where someone has tied their horse overnight to a tree. .. whereas highline is amazingly much less damage.


That's why I said typically, if your horse wont stand quietly while tied, wood chews, etc. then they can kill a tree in short order. Here's the thing, I've found that horses who get trail ridden a lot also learn to conserve energy or just plain old to tired to bother with their bad habits. But then I never ride a second time with someone whose horse or does not behave.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

My horses have been camping with most all of the above described methods. Except the 3 legged hobble.

In the colder weather I often camp in desert areas of Utah to get out of the snow. These areas have almost no trees. So I often have to use HiTies or tie the the side of the trailer. I prefer HiTies because it softens the tugging of the horses at night and I sleep better.










I prefer to Highline if I'm in an area where there are trees. Usually put 2-3 horses per length of rope in the trees









Some State Camp grounds have Hitchen Rails for horses in the camp ground.

Some Remote trail heads have corrals built by Back Country Horsemen or by local Ranchers that we put the horses in for the night.

My horses have quickly learned to deal with all of the above and make themselves comfortable in camp. In fact I laugh every year as I pack in for hunting season. We ride 7 miles up a remote trail and the horses STOP at the exact spot where the highline was hung last year. They know that is where they will be spending time during hunting camp. Even with not tent or ropes up yet. they just recognize the spot and stop.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Under what conditions do you choose hobbles or electric fence? Are the horses allowed to eat on a Hi-Tie or highline during the night or would there be too much of a risk of stepping over the rope? Have you ever used a collar rather than a halter to highline with?


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

Darrin said:


> That's why I said typically, if your horse wont stand quietly while tied, wood chews, etc. then they can kill a tree in short order. Here's the thing, I've found that horses who get trail ridden a lot also learn to conserve energy or just plain old to tired to bother with their bad habits. But then I never ride a second time with someone whose horse or does not behave.


Well..... for some reason, horses seem more intent on destroying a tree when tied to it rather than being tied to a highline. Strange but true.

My donkey had just been ridden over a grueling 16 mile trail. Got to camp, tied him to a tree till we decided where everybody was putting their mounts. In that short amount of time the tree was destroyed. That donkey was ridden a lot, he stood quietly will tied, well behaved. Just had a thing for destroying trees. Same for horses I have seen.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Avna said:


> Truth is, I don't like crowds and I don't have any romantic feelings toward cows. That's why I haven't really pursued the cattle drive thing. There's some big ones in CA too that are open to outside riders. The person I know who went on one (it's like across the Sierras) said it was really arduous (up at dawn, in the saddle all day, difficult terrain), own horses were not allowed, and the dust was outrageous. She had a good time though.


I think Martin Black has two camps/clinics he runs each year, but I don't think either is what you are looking for. They are very "crash course in Cowboying the right way" type of things where you are basically working cattle and horses the entire time on his horses or the ones owned by the ranch being worked. The month long one sounds like a butt kicker, but would be so fun. 

The camping part would be fun but I've not heard of one that does it old "chuck wagon style" that is not an actual roundup somewhere like W. Texas. Would be really fun to go on something like that. 

Just a hunch, but Eclectic Horseman magazine is probably a source for helping find this sort of thing if it exists. That is where I read about Martin Black's camps and then read more on his website.

Edit: I stand corrected, some of the clinics Martin Black puts on do allow you to bring your own horses.

http://martinblack.net/ranch-schools/2016-fall-sessions-with-martin-black-in-bruneau


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## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

Avna said:


> There was just a Trail Rider Magazine poll on "your ideal horse camping" or something and like 80% checked the living quarters trailer box. I'm always the one with the weird tastes I guess.


 You're not alone, I love camping with horses, haven't been in awhile. But when the stepkid a little older, we will be hitting the trail. ETA check this outfit out, they may actually do what you are talking about, I have no first hand knowledge, but a friend of a friend mentioned it in passing. http://mammothpack.wixsite.com/mammothpack/pack-trips


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

6gun Kid said:


> You're not alone, I love camping with horses, haven't been in awhile. But when the stepkid a little older, we will be hitting the trail. ETA check this outfit out, they may actually do what you are talking about, I have no first hand knowledge, but a friend of a friend mentioned it in passing. http://mammothpack.wixsite.com/mammothpack/pack-trips


I checked out their site and they do not mention "your own horse" anywhere on it. However they do offer all kinds of custom packing services, looks like they would be a good resource for packing in the southern Sierras.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

Hondo said:


> Under what conditions do you choose hobbles or electric fence? Are the horses allowed to eat on a Hi-Tie or highline during the night or would there be too much of a risk of stepping over the rope? Have you ever used a collar rather than a halter to highline with?


I've packed 1/2 mile of electric fence 10 miles into the wilderness and put it up around a meadow and put 19 horses out in it to graze. But I always bring the horses in at dark and highline them to a solid rope. I've had Moose, Elk, and deer run through meadows and drag off the hot wire. They don't know what it is and can easily get it wrapped up around them and drag a hot wire into my horses, spooking the herd and making a real mess. So for me Hot wires are for day light use only when I can supervise the horses activities. Here are some horses out in the meadow and you can see one of the fiberglass rods in the foreground. This was two 1/4 mile rolls of poly sting around a large meadow so the horses could graze and get to water during the day.


I do allow my horses to eat while on the HiTie or on a High line. But I do shorted them up a little tighter at night. Again when I can supervise them, I will let them have enough lead to get their nose to the ground. Feed them good before dark and again at first light and tie them up short while I sleep. I might even leave it long enough for them to lay down when I can keep an eye on them.



And I hobble a lot to let the horse off the Highline so they can graze in the morning and eveing before we ride or before I go to bed. I find that as long as their head is down eating, I let them keep grazing, But once they get their heads up and start looking around, They are full and starting to look for ways to get in trouble. Usually that is about an hour or grazing. I often also carry hobbles on the back cinch ring, and will hobble during lunch


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

That's some very good information with stuff I had not though of. Thanks. And thanks to the OP.

What would you do in a situation where there were no trees large enough to highline to? Hobble plus picket?


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## Roux (Aug 23, 2013)

Avna said:


> So, here is my ideal long vacation:
> 
> Haul out to wilderness trailhead. Pack mules and wranglers are waiting for us, they load up the personal gear we brought and we head out. Other wranglers have already ridden out the camp spot and by the time we get there, tents are up and dinner is cooked. We sit around the campfire (that they built) and sing songs and drink beer under the stars. The next day, we groom and feed our own horses, saddle up, and proceed to another wilderness camp where by gosh the same thing happens -- we get there, saddle sore and hungry, and camp is already waiting for us. Continue in huge loop for a couple weeks until we get back to the original trailhead.
> 
> ...


I didn't read all 3 pages but I did a ride that is exactly what you described about 10 years ago. It was a 4 day event and they moved our truck and trailer for us to a new campsite every day. They set up showers and hot food was waiting when we unsaddled. Since then the ride has been shut down by PETA and other "activists" for being cruel to horses. The year I did it no horses was injured or anything so I don't know why they thought it was so cruel... I would say we rode 12- 16 miles a day depending on the terrain. The middle day was very mountainous so we didn't cover as much ground as the last day which was mostly flat. It wasn't a race just a group of people who wanted to ride their horses. It was one of the most memorable and fun things I have ever got to do!


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

ChitChatChet said:


> At least highlines are a lot safer than hobbles.
> 
> Highlined quite a few different ponies that have never been highlined before. No problems whatsoever.
> 
> Hobbles and or picket lines however are quite a different story


We'll have to agree to disagree. I've hobbled and picketed for years without having any problems. Have never witness any problems with others who did the same. I cannot say the same for highlining. Personal experience has shown me that I face greater risks with a highline (see earlier post for actual examples). Not to mention limitation on where I can camp since everything I need to picket and hobble I can fit in one of my bags or tie to the saddle. Highlining is quite a different story. (Unless you've found a way to carry a couple of large enough trees or posthole digger and large enough poles in a saddle bag....along with insuring that none of the other problems I've seen with Highlining never happen) .

I don't say what anyone should use. I know what years of my camping and some cases what I've seen with others have taught me. I know people who use picketing and hobbling. I know people who use and swear by highlining. They all accept it's limitations and that they're not up to camping the way I do.... 1 horse carries the rider and everything they'll have (including it's feed) for a week. I don't hold it against them. I commend them for knowing their limitations.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Subbing <3


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## Rain Shadow (May 1, 2014)

I just started riding with a trail group that does a lot of camping and they are very anti-highline. Apparently they've had two horses that were experienced strangle themselves on the line.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Hondo said:


> That's some very good information with stuff I had not though of. Thanks. And thanks to the OP.
> 
> What would you do in a situation where there were no trees large enough to highline to? Hobble plus picket?


 That's a very valid question . Especially if you're in southern AZ where I've spent some time ). Trees seemed to be only slightly less scarce than water.

A hobble plus picket has always worked for me although I've used just a picket too.

Situation permitting my horse gets 3 grazing per overnight camp. 1st picket is while I set up camp, etc.... Another at night when I move her closer to the tent and she gets her evening feed. Finally in the morning when I picket and feed her in a new area while I eat, break camp and pack up. Of course situations don't always permit .


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@its lbs not miles From what I've read, I think if I did highline I'd use a collar. I've read it's safer as the horse is less likely to get the rope wound around its neck. Don't know first hand if that's true but seems to make sense. And less likely to get a shoe if shod hung on a halter.

Interesting about your ultralite packing. How much horse feed do you take? Can't be much, a little oats? How much weight not counting you or the saddle do you figure you carry?

Three grazings around here with water is pretty hard to come by. But with a pack horse I can carry enough feed for three days. After that all I need is water which is few and far between at times.


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## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

Avna said:


> I checked out their site and they do not mention "your own horse" anywhere on it. However they do offer all kinds of custom packing services, looks like they would be a good resource for packing in the southern Sierras.


 Well, shoot I was hoping it would be what you needed. There was a group of us at the bow range talking about our dream hunt and, naturally, packing came up. So I mentioned your idea. Sorry it didn't work out, hope you can make it happen!


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Hondo said:


> @*its lbs not miles* From what I've read, I think if I did highline I'd use a collar. I've read it's safer as the horse is less likely to get the rope wound around its neck. Don't know first hand if that's true but seems to make sense. And less likely to get a shoe if shod hung on a halter.
> 
> Interesting about your ultralite packing. How much horse feed do you take? Can't be much, a little oats? How much weight not counting you or the saddle do you figure you carry?
> 
> Three grazings around here with water is pretty hard to come by. But with a pack horse I can carry enough feed for three days. After that all I need is water which is few and far between at times.


Feed (long subject): I never feed oats or any grain. Grain is a slow way to kill a horse (maybe I should just say shorten it's lifespan). Over their 10 million years of existence the horse, as we know it today, was not designed for grain, but horse diet and digestion is really a college course and way beyond what I have time for here. If you want to read a "short" )) piece on it: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-nutrition/feeding-oats-724418/#post9388649
I feed a mix if beet pulp and copra for a few reasons. Both are non grain. Both are technically "cold" feeds. Both provide better value on nutrition than most things (short of feeding high fat oils). Beet pulp is all fiber, obscenely low starch, all fiber (vital for good gut health), better nutrition that the alfalfa, timothy, or the "richest" hays you can find (without the drawbacks), and it's every bit as light as any other manufactured feed. Copra is super digestible (done in the foregut) so it provides the nutrition quicker, again obscenely low starch, comes as a coarse powder so it compresses for max amount in a given space (I've also crushed beet pulp pellets for this effect at times). Both compliment each other for balancing out the Ca to P ratio. Beet pulp is very high in Ca, but almost no P while copra is very high is P, but with low Ca (Ca should be at least 50% more than P, but not more the 150% for best results).

Depending on the ride will determine how much I take, but generally I shoot for 10lbs of mix per day. I also try to give about a 10-15 min grazing break around ever 60-90 min (all subject to availability and situation). So for a 1 week ride I'll generally take about 60 lbs. (which is 10 lbs. more than I should, but she'll eat that 10 at the first stop) and will need to resupply. First day out her load (counting rider, saddle, etc...) is about 265 lbs. (depending on my exact weight that day) which is about 25 lbs. more than ideal for her size. We'll eat over 10 lbs. the first night/morning (usually the one meal I'm sure to eat from my supply) so by the second morning she's no longer over the ideal weight and well under it for the last few days. (for a week or less out I'm less concerned about the ideal weight since she'll have ample recovery trim following that short a ride, so I might carry a luxury or two)

Yes, I can remember how dry it was in the area around Huachuca (Tombstone, Bisbee, etc....). I found that a large number, or long line, of trees was often a good indication of WATER (depending on time of year) ))). Beautiful riding country though. Loved riding into the mountains. If only there had been as much grass and water as I have out here.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

6gun Kid said:


> Well, shoot I was hoping it would be what you needed. There was a group of us at the bow range talking about our dream hunt and, naturally, packing came up. So I mentioned your idea. Sorry it didn't work out, hope you can make it happen!


Not at all, I think this company probably would be able to do a custom trip the way I talked about, they just don't offer it as a package.


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

The amount of iron in beet pulp is concerning to me. A friend of mine who has mammoth donkeys found out the beet pulp she was feeding her guys was leading to health issues.


IMO beet pulp is too iffy of a food choice.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

ChitChatChet said:


> The amount of iron in beet pulp is concerning to me. A friend of mine who has mammoth donkeys found out the beet pulp she was feeding her guys was leading to health issues.
> 
> 
> IMO beet pulp is too iffy of a food choice.


Like everyone you're certainly entitled to your opinion .

Beet pulp has bee fed to countless horses for countless years with zero ill effect. Medical studies have held it up as an excellent feed for high nutritional value and healthy for the horse (isn't loaded with NSC like grains) and it's digestive tract.
It is probably one of the least "iffy" feeds you can give a horse.

Now I can't speak with first hand knowledge about the problems your friend had with they donkeys, but if it was indeed an issue with a mineral then the more educated estimation would be that the problem was not beet pulp as a feed, but that the animal was not getting the proper balance of minerals. Nothing has EVERYTHING that the horse needs in the proper ratios. Example. Horses need around a 2 to 1 (give or take a little) ratio of Ca to P. Beet pulp has no where near that. Easy enough to just say it has no P, but it's loaded with calcium. Left on it's own that's not healthy for a horse. They need calcium, but it has to be balanced with phosphorus so if the animal is not getting sufficient P then there is likely to be a problem eventually. Same if you feed just copra with no supplements or anything else. Copra is high in phosphorus, but low in calcium. This creates a ratio imbalance which, if left uncorrected, could eventually, over time, create a problem.

Now IF beet pulp did have any connection with the health problems your friend's donkeys had I would be far more likely to believe that it was the result of a lack of balance in the diet. Beet pulp has proven itself to be an excellent feed. Owners just need to be better educated about what a horse needs (by way of minerals, amino acids, etc...) and in what ratios since often a horse will need a certain amount of one mineral in order to make it possible for it to absorb a different mineral.

But again, you're certainly free to believe whatever you like and feed whatever you want. What people know, believe, of feed their horse(s) is not my problem. I'll provide information on how it works and why (I don't mind sharing the benefit of the course on the subject), but what anyone does is their problem. Feed them 10lbs corn, 20lbs of alfalfa, and 20lbs of Timothy a day if it's what someone wants to believe (we can make a study on the number of years before laminitis gets them or if some other diet related issue does before then). Load them up with acorns if they, because pigs and goats fatten up on them (just don't be surprised if the horse eventually ends up with kidney problems). )

IMO people who own horses should take the courses to teach them about diet, nutrition, digestion, etc... It not only would benefit their horses, but even better it would destroy the current feed industry. Suddenly they'd have to deal with an army of educated customers who would know the BS for the facts and most of what they were making would end up being sold has cow or hog feed at a reduced rate, because the educated horse owners would not be buying it. They'd be buying base ingredients, any needed supplements, and making their own.

Boy did I digress from why beet pulp is not iffy )).


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I am very interested in nutrition and perhaps this discussion belongs there.

I tested Hondo's forage about 1.5 years ago and have been supplementing trace minerals based on Equi-Lab analysis.

I have since observed Hondo eating everything from Purple Sage, Mesquite leaves, Cottonwood Tree leaves, two particular mudholes when dried up, eating dirt, even though he has free choice salt. Rimmey is following the same pattern.

I abandoned trace mineral supplementation about 3 months ago for Hondo's system to become what is provided by his forage with the intent to have a hair analysis which I'm to understand is the most accurate way to determine what they are both getting and uptaking.

There is an abundance of material about excess iron blocking the uptake of copper and zinc both of which are very necessary for strong hooves among other things. Both were about right in the Equi-labs analysis but iron was about 10x required which meant copper and zinc needed to be 10x also.

I just did a Google search on "iron in beet pulp" and found this. You may want to review the past information you have or perhaps post even more recent information than this link provides. I am very interested in this topic beyond any ultralite camping. 

The article suggest it might be a good idea to send ANY supplement to Equi-Lab in order to find out what is really in it.



Beet Pulp Warning for Horse Owners - BioEquine

Quoted from the link:

He said "Take a look at what Dr. Susan Cook from Phoenix says about Beet Pulp. It looks like we now have a fourth reason not to use beet pulp." 
"I also had my own unfortunate experience with a feed. In less than a month my horses were all having health problems. Two had gas colic, one ran a temperature of 106 (depressed immune system), and my laminitic mare lost weight. Testing of this feed at Equi-analytical Laboratories in Ithaca, N.Y showed it contained 600 ppm aluminum and over 500 ppm iron (500 ppm is toxic to horses). As beet pulp was the main ingredient I researched its iron and aluminum content. The Equi-analytical library showed beet pulp contains high iron. I also found that aluminum sulfate is used as a press agent to remove sugar from beets. Thus beet pulp is the source of elevated levels of iron and aluminum. Beet pulp is used as an ingredient in some senior and performance feeds because of its high digestibility. In my opinion, the high iron and aluminum content makes it a poor choice for horses. Other horse feeds contain soybean hulls to increase digestibility. Since soybeans are processed by acid washing in tanks that often are made of aluminum, soy products in horse feed may also contribute to the aluminum content. The other minerals were not present at the levels specified in the "Guaranteed Analysis". Moreover, the ratios were all off." 
- Dr. Susan Cook - See more at: Beet Pulp Warning for Horse Owners - BioEquine


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Ryle, talk to me - iron toxicity | My Horse Forum

Quote: "I'm REALLY wigging out now about beet pulp, which I have just found out, according to Equi-Analyticals average over 7 years, has an AVERAGE of 542ppm of Fe. This means more than a horse's entire daily requirement (unless he's super big and in super heavy work) in 2.2lb of beet pulp. This means even MORE in the 3lb I feed to the OTTB mare who only needs 400mg. And what about the horses out there who eat 10lb of the stuff a day? That's more than 2500mg of Iron a day!" 

https://groups.google.com/a/endurance.net/forum/#!topic/ridecamp/8bZPWeWWBTk

Quote: "Oats contain about 85 ppm iron," 

I'm just reading and posting. I'd appreciate any and all contradictory info available.

If this goes on, with respect to the OP, it will really need to be moved over to nutrition.

It's got me stirred up and thinking.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Hondo said:


> I just did a Google search on "iron in beet pulp" and found this. You may want to review the past information you have or perhaps post even more recent information than this link provides.
> 
> Beet Pulp Warning for Horse Owners - BioEquine


I am still trying to find the 'information' on that link. I see some random text attributed to a 'Dr Susan Cook' (no additional info given) and more text from a 'Ross Buchanan' who (according to _his_ website) is an "equine performance specialist" who performs "thermal imaging." Nowhere do I see any qualifications or published studies. No actual _data_ at all. I do see the rest of that website trying to sell me stuff, though.


In trying to find you Dr Susan Garlinghouse's articles on beet pulp (she is a well-known endurance veterinarian who specializes in nutrition), I came across this blog. Luckily for me, all the things I was looking for were right there, in a much nicer format than I could have produced.

We have fed beet pulp to our endurance horses for years with no ill effects.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

It was right down at the bottom of the link, the part I quoted. I reckon a guy could just go to Equi-Lab's site and read up on the tests they did there. I'm under the impression that Equi-Lab is the final word.

It may be that some beet pulp in some places is processed in such a way as to not be high in iron.

MAN! What a whirlwind of controversy I entered when first meeting Hondo! The only thing people seem to agree on is that we all like horses.

I am very interested in lowering Hondo's NSC's as he tends to carry a little extra lard. So when lbs mentioned that I was all excited. But it's all new so I've got some homework to do.

Remember a previous signature I had? "The unanswered question is not nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answer" Dr. Robert Bowker. I kinda like that quote.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Hondo said:


> It was right down at the bottom of the link, the part I quoted. I reckon a guy could just go to Equi-Lab's site and read up on the tests they did there. I'm under the impression that Equi-Lab is the final word.


If you can find the data from a lab that did testing, _that_ would be worth reading.

Anybody can write anything they want on their website.. just because Mr Buchanan says beet pulp is bad, why should I believe him? I said I couldn't find any 'information' on that website because all the words were just opinion.. no data or studies to back them up were linked.

The people quoted are just people.. one I couldn't find any bio on at all and the other didn't say a darned thing about being a nutritionist on his own website. So why should I believe anything they say?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Here ya go.

Common Feed Profiles | Equianalytical

Interactive Common Feed Profile | Equianalytical

beet pulp is under grains. 

oat hulls are looking pretty good. but would a horse eat them?

beet pulp copper and zinc are in an ok relationship with EACH OTHER but iron is sky high 

yall can read as good or better than I can I'm sure. A lot of reading to be done here.

i'm glad lbs stirred this all up. i think i may glean a few answers here. but first the hair analysis.

Print out a page and then add the NRC ppm's.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Hondo said:


> I abandoned trace mineral supplementation about 3 months ago for Hondo's system to become what is provided by his forage with the intent to have a hair analysis which I'm to understand is the most accurate way to determine what they are both getting and uptaking.


Curious as to where you heard that from?

I have to admit to not having looked into this topic in many years, so possibly the types of testing have changed. But a quick google search landed me a couple articles from independent sources who aren't trying to sell anything:

Kentucky Equine Research article

Rutger's protocol for determining nutritional problems in horses

David Ramey, DVM article on hair analysis

This article also has a bunch of scientific studies linked at the end.


I would love to hear your source for the hair nutritional analysis.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Here ya go.
> 
> Common Feed Profiles | Equianalytical
> 
> ...


Love this! Already staying up past my bedtime to look at things.

If you think beet pulp is high, take a look at shelled corn! Pretty crazy.

Now I am going to have to check the feed tag next time I am at the feed store, as my beet pulp is no longer in the original bag. Wonder if iron is on it? The standard deviation is fairly high at 388, which could be fine if the type you are feeding is one deviation down.. but one up is certainly eye-opening.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Grass pellets don't look that bad to take along camping. Everything is high in iron. I'm sure I'll be back to copper and zinc supplementation soon.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

phantomhorse13 said:


> Curious as to where you heard that from?


Just search equine hair analysis. It's all over. Apparently there is a large variation on the horse's uptake depending on both the horse and the type trace mineral. So the most meaningful and accurate is supposed to be hair analysis. (might find out if he's doing any recreational drugs too

I became interested in it as it is almost impossible to do a meaningful sample on what Hondo eats. The other day he was going after Cat's Claw seeds and pods. Ate some and then went on to other stuff. No end to what he eats.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Ryle, talk to me - iron toxicity | My Horse Forum
> 
> Quote: "I'm REALLY wigging out now about beet pulp, which I have just found out, according to Equi-Analyticals average over 7 years, has an AVERAGE of 542ppm of Fe. This means more than a horse's entire daily requirement (unless he's super big and in super heavy work) in 2.2lb of beet pulp. This means even MORE in the 3lb I feed to the OTTB mare who only needs 400mg. And what about the horses out there who eat 10lb of the stuff a day? That's more than 2500mg of Iron a day!"
> 
> ...


Last item first. Did the lab tell show that oats has AT LEAST 40% starch (did you want to reduce NSC?). The horse is designed to process a fraction less than 13% (but we'll use 13%). So I guess the lab didn't inform you that oats puts 25% more starch into the horses digestive tract than it's capable of dealing with properly. So lets keep our eye on the ball and not be distracted.

Beet pulp. Did the lab just test the product or did it run the test with actual horses? (that's a rhetorical question...I already know). I use this to bring out a problem "experts" often have in these cases. To give a human example. Lab test show that some vegetables are loaded with all the omega 3 a human could need. Great choice for all the vegans out there right? Well, not really. Test that involve people actually eating these veggies show an interesting feature. The human body has an extremely tough time trying to process omega 3 form a plant source. Basically you can eat an egg with 10% of the omega 3 that full of a vegetable has and get more omega 3 from the egg than you can for a casserole dish full of the vegetable, because we can process it from animal sources easily.

Not saying that this is the case with the beet pulp test, but it's a lab test that did not involve actually testing horses eating beet pulp, but only the product on its own.

Now I do love that quote ))). When I finish here I'm going to call my girls up from the back pasture, give them a small hay cube (their treat...the don't like apples or sweet things), and explain to them that I'm sorry for not letting them know sooner that they've been dead for quite some time now and that as a result, effective immediately I'm cutting out all there feed (why feed a dead horse?). Of course they will have to continue to let me ride them and I'm ever so proud of how well they've been doing. I dare say many living horses couldn't do as well as they've been doing dead. )))))
I think I should ask my vet for a refund on all the check ups they've had since they've been telling me for years our incredibly healthy my horses are (except for 3 of the last 11 FEC over the past 5.5 years which were over 150, but still not bad for dead horses to have so few worms). Well, they probably are amazing healthy for a couple of dead animals, but why should have needed to pay a vet to tell me that. Should have told me they were dead and saved me a lot on the cost of feed. ))))

Seriously though, I have to question a test on horses that isn't done using horses or taken into account that needed ratio of the trace elements (iron is 1 of the for trace elements a horse needs). Copper, Iron, Manganese, and Zinc. Of these Iron should have the highest ratio since it's vital for oxygen in the blood (if memory serves). If a horse is having issues from too much Iron it's just as like that it's not because they're getting too much Iron, but getting too little of the other things so the ratio is wrong. To easy to blame what you find a lot of instead of seeing that you've failed to provide what's needed to go with it.

Again, lab work alone just doesn't cut it. Especially when people are working inside a vacuum and not dealing actual horses in actual situations where EVERYTHING can be measured, compared and studied.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Misstated. Should say that there are just the 4 trace elements. There are more, but it's just the those 4 are "connected" in the ratios that a horse needs. Brains dragging a bit. I know what I'm thinking, but not doing a great job of writing it )))).


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Hondo said:


> It was right down at the bottom of the link, the part I quoted. I reckon a guy could just go to Equi-Lab's site and read up on the tests they did there. I'm under the impression that Equi-Lab is the final word.
> 
> It may be that some beet pulp in some places is processed in such a way as to not be high in iron.
> 
> ...


If you're wanting to cut down on the weight of an easy keeper I'm not sure beet pulp would be my first choice. While it will solve the NSC problem it is still very nutritional Basically you can get the best quality, most nutritional hay available in beet pulp will still be about 30% more nutritional. That's why people who do long distance riding and people who do long distance racing (endurance racers) like beet pulp. The horses don't get as much time to graze and beet pulp fills a large part of the nutritional need without using grains so it's healthy for the hind gut (which is where NSC does the real damage).

both my mares are easy keepers. The oldest is ultra easy (she can look at her empty feed bucket and put on 5lbs and put on 10 watching me emptying her feed out it), but of course for the sake of keeping them ready I have to feed them beet pulp and copra all the time. Only the quantities varies slightly. Result is that I just have to ride her more and keep up the physical demands on her. Even then I barely hold my own. My younger mare needs more riding time, but I just can't find a way to clone myself in order to do it all as needed )).

So short of just feeding copra and adding Ca supplement I don't know what to tell you about dropping weight. I know what they need and don't need and I know how to feed more to put on weight, but other than a lot of exercise I'm not sure what might be the best means of feeding for weight loss. Low quality hay might help (that is what they're designed to be eating anyway). If you can find some old style Bahia grass hay that would work. Probably not available out your way. I have to get it from cow farmers here, but it is around (and it's low price) ).


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Well, we are drifting a bit from "camping with wranglers" but it's interesting anyway.

I just popped in to say, I know a sheep rancher in Saskatchewan who has nine sections which is a small farm out there (a section is a quarter mile square). She's a fourth generation farmer out there, and sheep are her livelihood, not her hobby. However, she's experimental in that sheep are not a big crop out there, and she faced a lot of scoffing in her community when she tried them out. The flock lives out all year round and lambs outside, in one of the harshest climates in north america. I lived there one summer (in a tent) and helped her with the sheep. She would go out in the UTV to wherever the sheep were grazing and set out at loose minerals in separate feeders, including salt, limestone, copper, iron, zinc, kelp, and others. She kept them topped up and moved them when the sheep moved. 

She told me that at different times of year, at different life stages, at different stages of pregnancy, and on different types of pasture, the ewes would consume different minerals. Sometimes they'd gobble copper, then they wouldn't touch it for months. Same with all the others. She never mixed the minerals or tried to figure out what the sheep needed, she let them figure it out. And they did.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Just search equine hair analysis. It's all over. Apparently there is a large variation on the horse's uptake depending on both the horse and the type trace mineral. So the most meaningful and accurate is supposed to be hair analysis. (might find out if he's doing any recreational drugs too


I can find things all over the internet saying aliens are plotting to take over the government, but that doesn't mean it's true (though at this point, maybe that would be an improvement.. :-?).

I was hoping you had some links to scientific research showing that hair analysis for nutrition actually gives valid results, as all I could find from reputable sources says the opposite. Of course, the websites selling that service are going to claim they are the best thing ever.

Personally, we have our trace minerals available on a free choice supplemental basis. I figure the horses know better than I do what they want to eat.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@phantomhorse13

Ha ha. Point well taken about the internet! I just read an article very much against hair testing. 

How 'Bout We Analyze Your Horse's Hair? - David W. Ramey, DVM

I have no idea where the article is that had me so thoroughly convinced that I had found the magic solution to easing my worrying about Hondo's diet.

The great thing about this forum is that you can throw stuff you "think" you found and if it's off, someone will let you know.

Here it is. Found it from it showing when I last visited the site. The site does "sell" the test but I found it from the recommendation of another site. So now I find myself back in a flummoxed state of limbo. https://equine.uckele.com/equine-hair-mineral-analysis

@its lbs not miles

Yes, the lab shows the very high NSC in oats. Now I have to start searching the internet as a means of questioning the answers you give. Any help with links for doing that would be appreciated. I'll begin by searching on the order of "oats, horse hindgut".

Here is the pasted page on oats, pulp, and bermuda pellets. There are many more.

Oops. They must be off line doing maintenance or something. I'll post it later.

So anyhow, there does seem to be a very wide agreement that horses get too much iron, and that the iron blocks the uptake of copper and zinc which need to be supplemented at a certain ratio based on that iron percentage above what is recommended by NRC.

Do you do any trace mineral supplementation at all? Other than Ca?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Ok, I found the culprit.

I subscribe to Casie's Journal. Here is this month's musing on micro managing a horse's diet.

Micro-Managing Horses? Diets | The Naturally Healthy Horse

Within that article is a link to someone who does follicle analysis and Casie's results with her horses. (yes stuff for sale)

Equine Hair Analysis by Karen Eddings: Hershey?s Results | The Naturally Healthy Horse

That the analysis indicated cell phone radiation does raise my eyebrows a bit.

For myself, I don't worry about diet. I just try to stay away from processed stuff as much as I can and figure the evolution of my internals can figure out the rest.

Horses first originated on the North American Continent according to those who claim to know. Surly the iron content has not changed all that much. It would seem that over the many eons the horse would develop a system to deal with excesses and what we might wish to call imbalances.

I need to quit thinking about it for a while and let all this confusing info soak in my brain a bit.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Ok, here's some data. The columns didn't paste correctly. The first number in simply the number of samples tested. The second number is average content for oats, grass pellets, and then dry beet pulp.

Oats in very low on iron, about right actually, but high in NSC which I have read about in the hindgut confirming it is not so good.

Everything else on the site seems to be high in iron.

As you point out, this is what is in the food, not necessarily what is taken up by the horse. 




Equi-Analytical Data

OATS, Dry, Accumulated Crop Years: 5/1/2000 - 4/30/2016

Item	Samples	Average	Normal Range	Standard Deviation
% Dry Matter	1,806	90.228	88.138	92.319	2.091
% Crude Protein	1,692	12.371	10.317	14.425	2.054
% Lignin	784	3.176	2.205	4.147	0.971
% Acid Detergent Fiber	1,432	13.287	7.796	18.778	5.491
% Neutral Detergent Fiber	1,431	26.931	17.008	36.853	9.923
% Crude Fiber	88	9.371	6.425	12.317	2.946
% WSC (Water Sol. Carbs.)	237	3.290	1.832	4.747	1.458
% ESC (Simple Sugars)	197	2.300	1.179	3.422	1.122
% Starch	1,003	43.726	34.473	52.978	9.252
% Non Structural Carbo. (NSC)	63	48.680	37.235	60.126	11.446
% Non Fiber Carbo. (NFC)	1,246	52.576	43.044	62.109	9.532
% Crude Fat	1,198	6.239	4.647	7.832	1.592
% Ash	1,101	3.219	2.275	4.163	0.944
Relative Feed Value (RFV)	1	166.060	166.060	166.060	0.000
% Calcium	1,230	0.118	0.002	0.235	0.117
% Phosphorus	1,231	0.383	0.290	0.477	0.093
% Magnesium	1,197	0.143	0.110	0.176	0.033
% Potassium	1,198	0.516	0.357	0.674	0.158
% Sodium	621	0.020	0.000	0.084	0.064
PPM Iron	621	116.868	0.000	258.234	141.365
PPM Zinc	622	33.455	14.240	52.669	19.215
PPM Copper	625	7.004	1.311	12.697	5.693
PPM Manganese	621	52.323	32.996	71.649	19.327
PPM Molybdenum	620	1.027	0.350	1.705	0.677
PPM Cobalt	84	0.376	0.089	0.663	0.287
% Sulfur	812	0.161	0.115	0.206	0.045
% Chloride	144	0.135	0.040	0.230	0.095
% Nitrates	4	0.000	0.000	0.000	0.000
PPM Nitrate-Nitrogen	4	0.000	0.000	0.000	0.000
Horse DE, Mcal/Lb.	473	1.521	1.385	1.657	0.136
Horse TDN, %	473	76.054	69.258	82.850	6.796
% Nitrate	2	0.021	0.021	0.021	0.000


Equi-Analytical Data

GRASS PELLETS, Accumulated Crop Years: 5/1/2000 - 4/30/2016

Item	Samples	Average	Normal Range	Standard Deviation
% Dry Matter	710	91.632	90.110	93.153	1.521
% Crude Protein	624	13.900	9.590	18.211	4.310
% Lignin	357	5.771	3.744	7.798	2.027
% Acid Detergent Fiber	600	36.062	30.355	41.768	5.707
% Neutral Detergent Fiber	599	54.598	45.891	63.304	8.706
% Crude Fiber	24	24.162	20.081	28.244	4.082
% WSC (Water Sol. Carbs.)	481	10.808	6.968	14.647	3.840
% ESC (Simple Sugars)	421	7.163	4.799	9.527	2.364
% Starch	528	2.810	0.000	6.313	3.502
% Non Structural Carbo. (NSC)	105	13.267	7.844	18.689	5.422
% Non Fiber Carbo. (NFC)	437	23.521	16.930	30.112	6.591
% Crude Fat	395	2.901	1.782	4.021	1.119
% Ash	394	10.279	7.562	12.996	2.717
Relative Feed Value (RFV)	600	107.888	79.178	136.598	28.710
% Calcium	596	0.757	0.364	1.150	0.393
% Phosphorus	593	0.288	0.173	0.403	0.115
% Magnesium	556	0.241	0.158	0.324	0.083
% Potassium	556	2.086	1.447	2.726	0.640
% Sodium	396	0.125	0.000	0.285	0.160
PPM Iron	412	695.159	0.000	1535.000	839.841
PPM Zinc	401	43.007	0.000	105.498	62.491
PPM Copper	404	9.879	1.821	17.937	8.058
PPM Manganese	398	88.739	29.389	148.090	59.350
PPM Molybdenum	389	1.189	0.414	1.964	0.775
PPM Cobalt	20	1.003	0.000	2.082	1.080
% Sulfur	265	0.214	0.138	0.289	0.076
% Chloride	238	0.683	0.279	1.087	0.404
% Nitrates	22	0.122	0.000	0.260	0.138
PPM Nitrate-Nitrogen	22	274.715	0.000	587.363	312.648
Horse DE, Mcal/Lb.	231	1.022	0.882	1.162	0.140
Horse TDN, %	231	51.112	44.118	58.106	6.994
% Nitrate	3	0.080	0.080	0.080	0.0

Equi-Analytical Data

BEET PULP, Dry, Accumulated Crop Years: 5/1/2000 - 4/30/2016

Item	Samples	Average	Normal Range	Standard Deviation
% Dry Matter	1,604	91.809	90.267	93.352	1.542
% Crude Protein	1,387	9.314	7.629	10.998	1.685
% Lignin	461	3.917	1.390	6.444	2.527
% Acid Detergent Fiber	1,338	26.157	22.480	29.835	3.678
% Neutral Detergent Fiber	1,327	41.145	36.085	46.206	5.061
% Crude Fiber	64	18.665	14.915	22.415	3.750
% WSC (Water Sol. Carbs.)	539	10.376	3.732	17.021	6.645
% ESC (Simple Sugars)	579	8.707	3.980	13.433	4.726
% Starch	625	1.013	0.000	2.375	1.362
% Non Structural Carbo. (NSC)	192	11.808	3.940	19.675	7.867
% Non Fiber Carbo. (NFC)	1,213	45.058	39.712	50.405	5.347
% Crude Fat	848	1.288	0.402	2.174	0.886
% Ash	855	7.315	4.976	9.654	2.339
Relative Feed Value (RFV)	0	0.000	0.000	0.000	0.000
% Calcium	1,164	1.012	0.623	1.401	0.389
% Phosphorus	1,163	0.089	0.045	0.133	0.044
% Magnesium	1,159	0.238	0.125	0.351	0.113
% Potassium	1,163	0.720	0.175	1.265	0.545
% Sodium	990	0.256	0.000	0.639	0.384
PPM Iron	993	616.348	227.600	1005.097	388.749
PPM Zinc	977	24.481	0.000	75.550	51.068
PPM Copper	981	8.882	0.435	17.329	8.447
PPM Manganese	977	61.455	31.921	90.989	29.534
PPM Molybdenum	976	0.413	0.000	3.123	2.711
PPM Cobalt	20	0.877	0.450	1.304	0.427
% Sulfur	958	0.304	0.150	0.458	0.154
% Chloride	414	0.185	0.000	0.505	0.320
% Nitrates	217	0.019	0.000	0.048	0.029
PPM Nitrate-Nitrogen	217	43.922	0.000	109.242	65.320
Horse DE, Mcal/Lb.	637	1.199	1.105	1.293	0.094
Horse TDN, %	637	59.950	55.256	64.643	4.693
% Nitrate	26	0.012	0.004	0.020	0.008


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

^
Good example of why I do not worry that much about supplements. My tiny brain will shatter into crumbly white powder.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Horses first originated on the North American Continent according to those who claim to know. Surly the iron content has not changed all that much. It would seem that over the many eons the horse would develop a system to deal with excesses and what we might wish to call imbalances.


Actually activities like farming can deplete the soil of mineral along with natural leaching from rain. Where I'm from there wasn't a lot of selenium to begin with in the soil, between farming and rain just isn't much there. If I'm feeding horse hay from the area I'll need to add selenium to their diet as a supplement to make up for the soil defeciency. If I buy hay from the other side of the state that's much dryer and farmed a lot less, I don't have to supplement selenium at all because there's plenty in the hay.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

Darrin said:


> Trailmeister used to be a regular poster here with tips and reviews, luckily their website is still active https://www.trailmeister.com/. Some good information on the site about knots, high lines and such.


Robert Eversole (the Trailmeister) was here in St. Paul MN for the Horse Expo last April. He is an interesting speaker and is quite dedicated to light and ultralight horse camping. His web site has links to many articles he has written, lots of gear reviews, all kinds of camping tips, and an amazing collection of GPS data for trails.

One of the most immediately useful things I learned from his site is how to tie an Alpine butterfly knot, which is a big help any time I'm trying to tie something down in a pickup bed or trailer. It's a way to put a loop in a rope that can be easily untied no matter how tight you pull it. https://www.trailmeister.com/tie-an-alpine-butterfly-knot/

Don West wrote a book called _Have Saddle, Will Travel_ about ultralight camping by horse. It's out of print but you can buy a used copy from an Amazon vendor or you might run across it at your tack or feed store.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@Darrin Good point. Had forgotten about that. Always wondered how Pete Ramey found one farm with bad feet from excess iron or whatever and a nearby farm not. Wasn't thinking.

I'm now living in a high mountain desert at about 3,500 feet with more types of plants than I can count. And for the most part, don't have to worry about plowing and soil depletion for certain!

@Joel Reiter Hey that's a good knot. I looked up highlines and yep, that's one of the knots they use to separate horses, when knots are used.

That's a good site. I'll spend some time there. I'm hoping to going out with two horses but with the amount of feed needed to be carried around here ultralite will be the way to go anyhow. I already have some ultralite stuff for backpacking. Thanks!

I'm dreaming about all this stuff. Time will tell how much of it I actually do. I was looking at small solar panels and small tablets today. I don't really want to get away from it ALL! I'm already away from most of IT.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Deserts tend to accumulate minerals, not leach them. High rainfall areas are chemically leached. Agriculture doesn't leach out chemicals/minerals/metals, it adds them. Irrigated agriculture in low rainfall areas will add salts until the soil becomes incapable of growing anything much at all.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I think what happens with mineral poor soil in farming areas is not that they are leached out, but rather a particular crop or plant of some type is grown over and over without rotating in other types. Some plants make a heavy demand on particular chemicals or minerals in soils where other plants use other parts of the soil.

Say peanuts. Or soybeans. I don't know what either uses but I do know if the crop is planted over and over, even if properly fertilized, the soil will eventually become unsupportive of that plant.

There are many trace minerals in the soil that a particular plant needs beyond the three basic components of fertilizer. The soil needs to be rested from use of that particular mineral for enough time for more of that mineral to break down into a form that the plant can take up.

Around 50 years ago I was majoring in plant pathology but that only lasted about a year before changing majors. I remember a little but not much.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

Hondo said:


> I think what happens with mineral poor soil in farming areas is not that they are leached out, but rather a particular crop or plant of some type is grown over and over without rotating in other types. Some plants make a heavy demand on particular chemicals or minerals in soils where other plants use other parts of the soil.
> 
> Say peanuts. Or soybeans. I don't know what either uses but I do know if the crop is planted over and over, even if properly fertilized, the soil will eventually become unsupportive of that plant.
> 
> ...


^^ Yep, that's why crop rotations were so important back before modern farming started. Farmers typically went with a 3-4 year rotation on a field with one of those years leaving the ground fallow. Modern farming allows us to test soil and replenish the required nutrients for the crop we want to grow.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Interesting. I might have figured with today's technology they'd have figured a way around crop rotation by now. Obvious I've been away from the farm for a while.

I spent a little time in Southern California , Indio to Thermal, where there is a lot of irrigation and little rainfall. That was also many years ago. Don't know if salt build up has been a problem there or not. But leave it to the ingenuity of Western man to figure a way around it if it has.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Hondo said:


> Interesting. I might have figured with today's technology they'd have figured a way around crop rotation by now. Obvious I've been away from the farm for a while.
> 
> I spent a little time in Southern California , Indio to Thermal, where there is a lot of irrigation and little rainfall. That was also many years ago. Don't know if salt build up has been a problem there or not. But leave it to the ingenuity of Western man to figure a way around it if it has.


There are vast areas of the San Joaquin Valley which have been poisoned by irrigation salt residues and have been abandoned, they cannot be rehabilitated by any known means. Google Kesterson National Wildlife Refuge for a sobering story about agricultural selenium destroying an entire habitat in the western San Joaquin. Man is not quite as ingenious as one would hope.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Avna said:


> Man is not quite as ingenious as one would hope.


Another point well taken.

Oh yuk! Irrigation runoff. I know the history of the Salton Sea. Saw it when it was supposed to be a big tourist destination, and more recently when it could more appropriately called the Dead Sea.

Did you know the Sacramento valley used to be a 200 feet deep seaway? All that dirt came down from the Sierras. Talk about erosion! But that was natural.

Added to the irrigation runoff, the next big thing I'm afraid they may not be able to fix is what appears could be the devastating results from fracking.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Hondo said:


> Did you know the Sacramento valley used to be a 200 feet deep seaway? All that dirt came down from the Sierras. Talk about erosion! But that was natural.


Of course the natural part of it took place over a good few million years. But not all of it was natural: read about hydraulic gold mining and the effects it had on farms & rivers in the valley.


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

Rain Shadow said:


> I just started riding with a trail group that does a lot of camping and they are very anti-highline. Apparently they've had two horses that were experienced strangle themselves on the line.


Of course we dont know at all what happened in that case but I would guess the highline wasn't installed correctly.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

ChitChatChet said:


> Of course we dont know at all what happened in that case but I would guess the highline wasn't installed correctly.


Inexperienced horse along with a high line that's not tight enough or a lead to long will do it.

FYI, I've had to cut a few horses leads that got wrapped up when high lined. All were inexperienced horses.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Hondo said:


> @*its lbs not miles*
> 
> Yes, the lab shows the very high NSC in oats. Now I have to start searching the internet as a means of questioning the answers you give. Any help with links for doing that would be appreciated. I'll begin by searching on the order of "oats, horse hindgut".
> 
> ...


) Actually, oats has the lowest NSC of all the feed grains so the fact that you find it high should tell you something about feeding grain. Too much NCS accounts for far more health issues and early deaths for horses than anything else (including too much fe) ). You'll never get rid of NSC, because even grass and hay will have a certain amount of it (although lush grass and high quality hays will have too much), but horses are designed to deal with about 13% of it being in their diet. In most cases when it comes to minerals (trace or otherwise) it's tends to be an improper balance that is the real problem. You can find cases where horses get too much Ca, but the real problem is that they're not getting enough P. That would in fact be the biggest problem with feeding beet pulp since it's Ca to P ratio must be 10 to 1 or worse. When it needs to be around 2 to 1. I'll bet the same is more often the case with fe problem (beet pulp or otherwise).

I realize it's just a commonly used term, but these minerals don't actually "block" another mineral. They either enhance, impede, or have no effect. Horses need significantly more iron than copper so clearly it cannot block it. I does make tougher to absorb, but relatively they don't need to absorb as much. Which goes back to my point that most cases it's not that they too much of a mineral, but don't get enough of what balances with it.

Yes, my horse to get a couple of oz. of a supplement mix to insure the right balance. If I had a ready supply of feed items I could use to get what they need I'd just mix it all myself since I know what they already get from the grass and hay (for the roughly 4 months that they get hay) which will tell me what they lack.

I know of no one who feeds just beet pulp or only one of any item (although I'm sure there probably are some who do). I've yet to find any single item that fills all of a horses needs for a healthy diet.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Hondo, I forgot to address your information question.
Sorry, I can't give you links, because I didn't get this off the internet . Had to get it the "old fashion" way. Not all my college courses pertained to my major (though I guess they should have since I didn't use my major as a career) ))). Most of what I know on this came from books, listening to lectures and taking notes and some class handouts (some of which I still have). That's why I do much of this from memory (which fails me at time) )))), because I'm usually too lazy to find my notes/handouts )). I tend to be suspicious of things "experts" put on the internet if they're to far removed from what I was taught, validated or verified. Such as lab work that doesn't look at everything in the big picture and doesn't actually include the horse. Also people who have a vested interest getting you to believe something. My prof's had no addenda beyond providing information to be learned which I'm sure was hoped that it might benefit some horses.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I don't have any formal education in horse nutrition so I depend on NRC's ratio recommendation and Equi-analytical's analysis. I have nothing else to really go on.

When I was growing up we had draft horses for farming. No tractor. We grew corn purely for the horses. Had a cor crib just for them. When they worked, they got several ears of corn. Everybody around there did that. None died from that either that I know of.

May be like a runner or high energy output people who can handle a lot of sugar during peak exercise, but when the exercise stops, look out!

Now I'm curious what the Amish are feeding their work horses. Wonder if they have caught up with the times on proper nutrition and have at least done away with the ears of corn.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

phantomhorse13 said:


> I am still trying to find the 'information' on that link. I see some random text attributed to a 'Dr Susan Cook' (no additional info given) and more text from a 'Ross Buchanan' who (according to _his_ website) is an "equine performance specialist" who performs "thermal imaging." Nowhere do I see any qualifications or published studies. No actual _data_ at all. I do see the rest of that website trying to sell me stuff, though.
> 
> 
> In trying to find you Dr Susan Garlinghouse's articles on beet pulp (she is a well-known endurance veterinarian who specializes in nutrition), I came across this blog. Luckily for me, all the things I was looking for were right there, in a much nicer format than I could have produced.
> ...


There is so much mis information about beet pulp out there!
Dr Susan Garlinghouse had the same inf for a paper by Dr Lori Warren, an equine nutritionist that I have hears speak several times
The paper, if it still can be found, is Truths and myths in feeding beet pulp
I feed beet pulp all the time, including to my IR horse. It is used as the fiber in most senior horse feeds

Beet Pulp - First Place Feeds | Black Diamond | Alberta | Canada

http://www.karenchaton.com/2010/10/beet-pulp-toxicity-dont-fall-for-this/comment-page-1/


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

i guess I am perhaps lucky, that we have an annual Horse breeder and owner conference in Red Deer, where speakers , expert in their equine field, are brought in every year to speak
Among them are equine nutritionists, which , along with being a lab tech, gives me an advantage in sifting through hype, truth and myths in regard to horse feeding
We are told by many of those speakers that this conference is unique and the best in North America.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo, here is something you might wish to read, including the credibility of the info in that Bio Equine link, and Dr Susan Cook


https://equineink.com/tag/beet-pulp/


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Growing up, and into my 30s, living in CA and AZ, our horses were fed almost exclusively on Alfalfa. They were all healthy and a few of them lived well into their 30s. 

20 years later, I'm living in the south where finding 120 lb bales of alfalfa is almost impossible and everyone tells me how bad it is. I feed Bermuda, because that's what everyone feeds. I also supplement with a lb of ration balancer and give them a coffee can of alfalfa/timothy cubes each night, and, according to my vet, they're healthy.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Hondo said:


> I don't have any formal education in horse nutrition so I depend on NRC's ratio recommendation and Equi-analytical's analysis. I have nothing else to really go on.
> 
> When I was growing up we had draft horses for farming. No tractor. We grew corn purely for the horses. Had a cor crib just for them. When they worked, they got several ears of corn. Everybody around there did that. None died from that either that I know of.
> 
> ...


I would imagine most ratio information was accurate. That's been so well studied and documented only an idiot would come up with something that differed significantly. Of course there are some of those out there ).

As with humans it takes a long time for the effects of a bad (overly rich) diet to kill a horse. It took 19 years for it to kill Secretariat. I suppose it could be argued that even with a proper diet and care he would probably only have lived another 10-15 years so at least he'd lived over half a lifetime on an overly rich diet that shortened his life, but he enjoyed it (didn't enjoy the laminitis I'm sure). What's the old argument for justifying things that are bad for us? "Have to die of something". . Part of the real problem is that grains effect the Ph in the hindgut so its not so much about the energy the expend, but the effect it has on their digestive system. Work will use of some of the energy grains give, but it doesn't negate the effects the starches have on the hindgut. I give a "small" explanation of that in the post on feeding oats that I linked to earlier in this thread. Too much starch impacts how a horse is able to process it's food (it can't digest grass or hay, but needs micro organisms found in it's hind gut to do that....starches change the Ph which reduces the number of these and increases numbers of other micro organisms that process starch which is why bad things eventually happening). To often we're only given the information we are wanted to know. They don't tell "the rest of the story".

Even my grandfather (born in the late 1800's) knew that grain wasn't good. Didn't know the medical reasons why, but we were never allowed to feed corn and even oats were avoided unless unavoidable (although we did sometimes let them out with the cows on rye Winter grazing at times which I learned was not good for the horses, but they never had more than a couple months on it). I remember our corn crib (hammer mill, etc...). We had two grain tight barns, but grains were reserved for the cattle, hogs, poultry, and for the goats in Winter since all those provided use with food and income.

Lord love em, I doubt the Amish have advanced in their knowledge of equine nutritional needs or digestion. Most Amish have the same mindset that my grandfather's generation had. The horse is basically a living piece of equipment. Maintained to do a job. Worked until it is no longer able to adequately or sufficiently do the job after which it is disposed of in the most profitable means available. Not that there's anything wrong with that view point. It is a logical and understandable way to look it when the horse is used that way. The objective is to get the most work with the least cost.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Change said:


> Growing up, and into my 30s, living in CA and AZ, our horses were fed almost exclusively on Alfalfa. They were all healthy and a few of them lived well into their 30s.
> 
> 20 years later, I'm living in the south where finding 120 lb bales of alfalfa is almost impossible and everyone tells me how bad it is. I feed Bermuda, because that's what everyone feeds. I also supplement with a lb of ration balancer and give them a coffee can of alfalfa/timothy cubes each night, and, according to my vet, they're healthy.


In your area I'd be looking at the cattle farms to see if any baled Bahia grass. Unless you have a hard keeper. It's great and less expensive. It's what mine get during Winter when most of the grazing is gone. They don't need hay the rest of the year ).


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Hondo, here is something you might wish to read, including the credibility of the info in that Bio Equine link, and Dr Susan Cook
> 
> 
> https://equineink.com/tag/beet-pulp/


 
Come on guys. Even the most ignorant and unedumacated person (and BTW: ignorant is not a bad thing. Simply means that a person is not knowledgeable about a something...i.e. when it comes to neurosurgery I am one ignorant SOB) knows the 3 rules about the internet.

Rule 1: If it's on the internet it's true.
Rule 2: If a non internet source (scientifically, medically, historically, etc....) proves internet information is untrue or if it's something you know absolutely to be untrue (it could be about you...but then what would YOU know about yourself that someone on the internet wouldn't know more about), then refer to Rule 1.
Rule 3: If something on the internet contradicts the claims of something else on the internet refer to Rule 1 for each of them (i.e. obviously they BOTH have to be true).
:rofl:


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Hondo, here is something you might wish to read, including the credibility of the info in that Bio Equine link, and Dr Susan Cook
> 
> 
> https://equineink.com/tag/beet-pulp/


Nice article though. I enjoyed her "let me smack you around a bit because you're spouting out BS" rebuttal . Now in defense of the anti beet pulp supporters they do have the alleged findings of some lab that contradicts the findings of the other labs. And after all, if someone has a problem that goes away when they stop feeding beet pulp that has to mean that beet pulp must be bad, because it can't be a case of they didn't balance the diet. It had to be the beet pulp and all the excess Ca and Fe it has. It's not their fault really. They don't understand enough about equine nutrition or digestion (I loved the indigestibility of beet pulp :rofl. They're being spoon fed what someone else wants them to believe and they believe it because they don't know any better. They're ignorant of the need to have other minerals to give the proper balance. BUT when they're given a different diet that does not include beet pulp, but we've made sure the balance is more correct, the problems go away. Again, clearly it's beet pulp that's bad.

I can see how they come to believe it and march in lockstep as part of the Anti Beet Pulp Army .


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

you know, it might be good to have a Beet Pulp Pro And Con thread of its very own. Or change the title of this one to Camping With Beet Pulp and Maybe Wranglers. 

Just a thought . . .


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Thanks OP. You've been a gracious hostess!

New thread continuing the nutrition topic here.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-nutrition/why-should-i-feed-beet-pulp-726746/#post9423514


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