# What is your opinion on Parelli?



## Vannah (Jan 23, 2011)

I am personally working on finding my own opinion.

I've played the games with my cousin's horse. She swears by Parelli, and said I had to learn the games before I could ride her horses. Her horses seem to enjoy the Parelli method, and she is a Parelli master, and even went and stayed with the Parelli's for a couple of weeks for their schooling thing. 

A couple of weeks later I talked to my Grandfather, an ex-cowboy and current farrier and fox-hunter, and he said that the horses he's met who have been trailed with the Parelli method give him more trouble than any other horses he's worked with. 

What is your opinion on Linda and Pat, and their training methods?


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Horrible... Not to offend anyone that does like them.. Just MY opinion.

Did you ever see the videos of Linda?? There are quite a few that shows crappy and bad methods... So I'm not just basing my opinion on one 3 minute video...

And I do remember one of Pat that was getting very frusterated with a horse and doing some bad horsemanship.

And I don't like the "game" thing.. You have to complete each of the games before you can do any work with them.

So, no. I Do not like Parelli.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

I think Parelli does not work with every horse, which is (putting aside trainer error) what makes or breaks a horse after Parelli training. Parelli caters so much to the "wild, uncontrollable" horses, that they forget about horses like my Arthur, who are completely bombproof and won't run around in a circle around Pat Parelli for the life of him. My Thoroughbreds, on the other hand, love Parelli because it's all based on sensitivity. Thoroughbreds are naturally sensitive animals, so Molly and Excel excel at Parelli's concept of "how much pressure can I put on this horse's chest so he moves?". They LOVE moving off of pressure. Arthur....not so much. He's not gonna jump and move off to the rail with a wrist signal, _ever_. He's just not that kind of horse. He's been too desenstized to putting up with things that a jab on the neck isn't going to make him move. He's bombproof, solid, and will put up with anything.


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

I dont really mind his methods/ideas although his wife explains things better lol.
The basic principals make sense, though i understand how someone would have troubles working with a horse who's been trained the "Parelli" way (most ppl who talk of Parelli training are refering to Natural Horsemanship as a whole, not just the man himself).

In my opinion, if you're going to train a horse this way you should plan on _keeping_ it as most people won't know how to work with a horse who's been taught the "natural" way and will have troubles.
I've watched some videos & read one of the books, but i don't do everything step-by-step. I take some of the ideas/principals & apply them where i see fit when working with a horse. And EVERY horse is different. 
His way of working the brain not the body makes total sense though i don't think it's at all necessary to learn all the games on the ground before getting in the saddle. 

My friend is working with her Arab in the natural way. Her dad's more of the old-style cowboy/trainer & so she always did the normal stuff (catch the horse, throw a saddle on, maybe longe them in circles until they've calmed down a bit, ride & deal with the issues as they come up).
This particular horse, however didn't respond very well to this way of handling. He was 9 when she broke him, extremely sensitive, cinchy & he would spin in circles when she tried to mount. Though he never offered to buck, he was always tense & coiled like a spring. 
She started working with him on the ground using some of the Parelli methods & he's a completely different horse now. 

Again, we use him or any other Natural Horseperson's training style as a _guide_, not a rule. You dont have to do everything by the book.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Haven't we been here before?
There's been so much said on Parelli, I think many of the members will feel kind of jaded about reopenning the subject.

I liked what Ruffian said. She has more stamina than I do.

The one complaint that I have with Parelli is that often horses become so desensitized that it becomes hard to work with them. We need a horse to be sensitive and move away from pressure, not be cuddly and always face us.

Also, (another complaint), I dont' like the way the trainer goes through these "games" without really understanding WHY and what they are trying to achieve except to pass that level so they can go up a level. They lose sight of the reason behind any training strategy or movement. Thus, they don't know which are needed when, and just go blinding through the 7 games, whether needed or not.

However, i have said before, that I give the Parellis a big hand for their having brought Natural Horsemanship out to the general public in such a palatable form, and basically starting a revolution in horse trianing.


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## Vannah (Jan 23, 2011)

tinyliny-- I'm sorry I brought it up, I knew to this site, so I didn't know. 

lilruffian-- I entirely agree. Each horse is different. 

equiniphile-- YES!!! He does focus way to much on problem horses. Have you read what he says about stallions? He's sooo against them. If there were no stallions there would be no horses. Should ammys be handling stallions? No. but that doesn't mean all stallions are bad. 

and Ray, yes, I don't think that you should have to go through a series of games to work with your horse. I think that it's important for horse and rider to bond, but I don't think that a series of games, that some horses don't even respond to, are worth the time. 

I remember my cousins Warmblood and I were playing the games, as she was teaching them to me, but he got bored and eventually stopped responding. But she wouldnt let me on him until I did each game.


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

I greatly DISlike parelli, and thats me being nice so I don't get banned. A word of advice for all new member is to use the surch option to look for other threads before you post. A lot of these kinds of threads end really bad.


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## Bella Boo (Jan 30, 2011)

I do Parelli with my horse to calm her down, I dont usually do Parelli (im an English style rider that does dressage) but it will help you form a relationship with your horse and it helps me in my dressage now because I can go sideways disengage the hinquarters and all now, I would recomend it to everyone!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

The thing is , Bella Boo, none of what you describe that you do to calm your horse and create a better relationship IS Parelli. All of those motions/techniques preexisted him by a long way and are used by many other practicioners, and they didn't copy Parelli. They all use many of the same techniques. They are very old training steps. It's just that the Parelli's get credited with this because they renamed it something catchy like "savvy" and "game", and systemetized it in a reasonable order. That systemetizing was the smartest thing they ever did and has made them rich. 
BUT it has also made many people take the first steps to strike out into new territory of relationship with their horses, and for that , the Parellis deserve great credit.


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## SaddleDragon (Sep 20, 2010)

Im not a fan at all. I think the ideas would be great to use on wild horses, being introduced to humans, but not domestic horses.
They seem to end up with more issues than normally trained horses. One lady at the farm I board at has been doing the games for 5 years, she told me....never seen her ride ....hmm
Taking training slowly and gently is great, but if there is no training going on then its a waste of time.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I agree! ^^

I like researching many different trainers to get as much knowledge as I can and for the most part all their techn. are th same. You usually just get a different view or way to do it.


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## Tymer (Dec 28, 2009)

My opinion on Parelli? Marketable and exploited. No one can or should sell a method of training for any animal. Its simply not possible! There are so many in-s and out-s to training that any person cannot gain from reading a book or watching a DVD. Even the best videos cannot teach a person about all training all the time. 
The actual Parelli "games" are sound though. Not the constant daily use, however. The friendly game: Teaches horse to be okay with you touching them and desensitized to "scary" things touching them. Porcupine game: Moving off pressure. Driving game: More advanced porcupine game because you don't touch the horse. You use this in lunging a lot. YoYo game: I don't specifically agree with the WAY they ask you to do this one, but the idea that a horse should move away from you and come close to you when you ask is good. Circling game: Using pressure from a distance to get a horse to circle around you. Lunging. Sideways game: Sidestepping. Squeeze game: I don't know, but it might just be my lack of experience that tells me this is useless.

The games are mostly credible, but not necessarily the methods they use to obtain them. Parelli has some very sound ideas, but unlike they try to convince you it is not a be-all-end-all method that everyone should use.


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## Vannah (Jan 23, 2011)

myhorsesonador said:


> I greatly DISlike parelli, and thats me being nice so I don't get banned. A word of advice for all new member is to use the surch option to look for other threads before you post. A lot of these kinds of threads end really bad.



Thanks, I didn't know that was an option. 


I really just wanted to hear some opinions, and I've been getting them. Thanks!

Being new with horses, and only knowing what my Family has taught me (My Mom was a trainer, my Grandpa is a farrier, and my Cousin bred and showed for a while) I was conflicted on the subject. Know that I know more I'll know what to look out for. I know I'll find my way to bond with my horse that suits my horse and I both splendidly.


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## Vannah (Jan 23, 2011)

Oh, and my Mom always tells me she was doing things that Parelli talks about back in the 80s. She jokes, "We could be rich, if only I would have not had a soul and exploited it."


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

LOL! It would nice to be rich!

I think it would be better for you to get as much ideas and training techn. if you rad about as many trainers you can. Whether it be Parelli, Bob Avila, Clinton Anderson, Monty Roberts or anyone else you want and make up your own way to do things.

It will help you become the best horsewoman you can be


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

The best way to bond with a horse is to go out and just brush them. I used to brush Sonador for 2 hours a day. She was only a year old so I couldn't do much else with her. Now we are about as bonded as her personality will alow us to be. Or just go into the pasture with a bucket and a book. set the book upside down nere the hay and just read your book.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

That would work well to.


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

_


Tymer said:



The actual Parelli "games" are sound though. Not the constant daily use, however. The friendly game: Teaches horse to be okay with you touching them and desensitized to "scary" things touching them. Porcupine game: Moving off pressure. Driving game: More advanced porcupine game because you don't touch the horse. You use this in lunging a lot. YoYo game: I don't specifically agree with the WAY they ask you to do this one, but the idea that a horse should move away from you and come close to you when you ask is good. Circling game: Using pressure from a distance to get a horse to circle around you. Lunging. Sideways game: Sidestepping. *Squeeze game: I don't know, but it might just be my lack of experience that tells me this is useless*.

Click to expand...

_


Tymer said:


> _QUOTE]_
> 
> I actually find this "game" useful. Many horses dont like going into tight spaces. It helps alot to work with your horse on passing between you and a fence for example as it can come in handy when you're loading (especially in a 2-horse trailer or smaller).
> Teaching them to walk beside you and even away from you or go into the trailer on their own this way also prevents the risk of potentially being run over if the horse spooks or if you're working with a young one.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

^I think the squeeze game is useful also, especially when you can get the horse to the point where he'll stop half-way going through the tight space without worrying about him exploding and trying to get out.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I hate parelli and that is putting it nicely.

I firmly believe that it creates more problems then it solves, the vast majority of problem horses I come accross are just bad mannered horses that have een "parelliized".

I've seen a horrific display put on by Pat himself where he essentialy mentally tortured a horse for an hour and then took his legs out from under him!

It has a cult like following and sells a big orange stick marketed as a "carrot stick" for £30. this amazing device can also be found for under £5 in all tack stores accross the country, commonly known as a schooling whip!

22ft feather line - £30 from parelli. Lunge line (exactly the same, just put a knot in it at 22ft) - £5 from any tack shop!

Most followers are amatures who follow it religiously and preach parelli at every one. I'm sick of having it rammed down my throaght!

Ohhh I'm a good girl I actualy managed to stay relativly polite in this post.


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## SaddleDragon (Sep 20, 2010)

faye said:


> I hate parelli and that is putting it nicely.
> 
> I firmly believe that it creates more problems then it solves, the vast majority of problem horses I come accross are just bad mannered horses that have een "parelliized".
> 
> ...


 
YEAH!!! I feel the same way. Good marketing ...

common horse sense does not make your whip better than mine, lol.


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## GreenTreeFrog (Sep 26, 2009)

Vannah said:


> What is your opinion on Linda and Pat, and their training methods?


I don't have an opinion on Pat and Linda as I don't know them. 

For absolute beginners like me, I find the program fantastic to follow. My horse is reponding, we are both growing in confidence and I love the safety training. It makes sense to me if I can master control of my horse at the ground level, then I can confidently move to do that from the saddle.


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

It's a big crock, if you ask me.

All he does is take training methods (then screws them up) that have been used for years upon years, changing them a bit, and then calls them his own. Games with my horses? No thanks. They are not children. Then, he takes a piece of training equipment, slaps his brand on it, then expects people to pay triple what the exact same thing would cost in a local tack store. 

It may work for some people, but I'll stick with my trusted Clinton Anderson.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

GreenTreeFrog said:


> I don't have an opinion on Pat and Linda as I don't know them.
> 
> For absolute beginners like me, I find the program fantastic to follow. My horse is reponding, we are both growing in confidence and I love the safety training. It makes sense to me if I can master control of my horse at the ground level, then I can confidently move to do that from the saddle.


Unfortunatly it doesnt work like that in reality. My little youngster is fantastic to handle, has the manners of a saint inhand and will do anything I ask of him. He is currently being a little Sh1t to break in and ride! nothing to do with his ground manners everything to do with the fact that I've taken away the safety net of me standing where he can see me and he is throwing a wobbler about it!


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## Lonannuniel (Jun 13, 2008)

I think parelle caught the world at a good time, Just when horses and natural methods are becoming popular. I am not going to say he is a "bad horseman" or the program is horrible, but i think we could all get the same results by educating ourselves, listening to and responding to our horse's individual personality and needs, and not falling for the overprice equiptment that can be bought at most local tack stores ( as others have stated ).


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## GreenTreeFrog (Sep 26, 2009)

Bit like raising kids, many methods, not all work for all kids in every situation.


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## Vannah (Jan 23, 2011)

GreenTreeFrog said:


> Bit like raising kids, many methods, not all work for all kids in every situation.



Yeah, like I'm awesome, and my brother is awful.

Just because your cranky mare responds to Parelli, doesn't mean your spooky gelding will.


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## SugarsGal (Jan 30, 2011)

I've really tried doing the Parelli games with my horse. She doesn't respond to them because she's so mellow (most of the time xD). She doesn't move off of pressure very well, unless its pushing on her nose to get her to back up. But, me and her have a great bond anyway. She follows me everywhere, wants to be scratched, I can even lead her to and from the barn by just her chin. I didn't learn that from Parelli, I learned that from bonding with my horse.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Every horse I've ever met that has been "parellied" to any significant level of parelli has either been incredibly badly behaved or has been bored or badgered into submission and all the spark and joy for life has gone from thier eyes. I've never yet seen one that is happy to see you, they have all been listless and dead in the eye. I'm not talking about those that play the occasional game, more those that have had nothing else for a good while and who's owners are indoctrinated.

I personaly and not afraid to give my youngster (or any of my horses) a **** good wollop if I feel they are taking liberties. They still love me, they whinney for me and come to call at the canter. They also give kisses on command and have a wonderful lust for life. They know thier place, are secure in their place and don't take liberties very often but are affectionate and interested at other times. 
My youngster pushes his boundaries occassionaly but is firmly brought back into line. He has that incredible curiosity of a young animal, that little spark of mischief in his eyes that says I'm here and happy, you may be boss but I just wonder if you'll let me get away with this? and yes he gives cuddles, kisses and even sloppy kisses (likes to lick my glasses!). He wouldnt dare kick me or bite me, he got a hefty smack on the **** for threatening the day after I got him home and he has never done so again!

In contrast there was one lady on the yard who was very heavily into parelli and natural horsemanship, she had a horse of the same age, similar breeding and tempremant she was forever being kicked and bitten, the horse just ran wild, pulled away from her and generaly arsed around, occassionaly spanround and gave her owner both barrells. She asked me to look after her for one night, the little mare went to give me a solid kick and got a smack for her efforts, she never tried to kick me again, infact I ended up bringing her in from the field regularly because the lady believed the horse was "listening to my natural body language" and behaved better for me. Your **** right she behaved better for me but it isnt natural body language its the fact that she respects me and knows she wont get away with it.

Sorry but parelli is one of thos things I could rant on about for hours!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Eh, I tend to take the Parelli's with a grain of salt. I never have liked Linda but Pat was much better when he was just starting out as a clinician quite a few years ago. Back then, his program really _was_ about teaching basic safety and horsemanship to people who were perhaps not quite so experienced. However, over the years, the money and fame appears to have gone to his head and he seems more concerned with selling you his overpriced DVDs and tack than actually solving problems that the normal horse owner has. Now, it's all about buying his special halter and teaching your horse to jump over cow colored barrels.

There are lots of people out there that have wonderful relationships with their horses. They can ride them bareback in a halter and the horse will willingly go wherever they need to go, including jumping over logs and crossing creeks. Many of those people have never played a single "Parelli" game.

I won't say that everything they teach is bad, because it isn't, but _some_ of the things they teach are. Some of them just make no sense in the grand scheme of things and I have seen a couple of things that would get someone hurt if they tried it with the wrong horse. 

My thing is that, in order to become a good horseman, a person needs to find inspiration and learn methods from a wide range of people. If the only horsemen you have access to are the clinicians, then learn from all of them. Like others have said, Parelli won't work with every horse, and if a person is strictly a Parelli follower and refuses to acknowledge some of the other teachings out there, then they are really limiting themselves and getting trapped in a corner in regards to their training.

Not to mention that I guess they think all horse people have money like they do. Even if I was interested in being a Parelli-ite, I wouldn't be able to afford all their stuff. I can only imagine how many hundreds of dollars people spend every month for stuff with the little Parelli logo when you can find the exact same thing at the tack store for 1/4 the price.

My biggest problem with them though is the fact that they (and so many people who follow them) are hypocrites. Their teachings are all about Love, Language, and Leadership and we hear all the time about how force is never the answer and if the horse doesn't do what you want, then it's because of something _you_ did. Then they turn around and have things like the debacle with Catwalk and the video of Linda actually teaching a girl how to "properly" pop her horse in the face with a lead rope snap so that it would cause the most pain. 

I have no problem using force with a horse when it's necessary and I have no problem with people preaching about how force is never the answer. But at least people like that should practice what they preach.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

i think the games are very good. they are simple and straight forward for people with or without horse experience to understand. all horses should know these skills [imo] and many many many horses do not.

as for the rest of the method i am not educated enough. i do not subscribe to any of their riding techniques.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

faye said:


> Unfortunatly it doesnt work like that in reality. My little youngster is fantastic to handle, has the manners of a saint inhand and will do anything I ask of him. He is currently being a little Sh1t to break in and ride! nothing to do with his ground manners everything to do with the fact that I've taken away the safety net of me standing where he can see me and he is throwing a wobbler about it!


Yes that is a very good point Faye. I like ground work too, I expect my horse to put her feet where I ask her. Yet sometimes this isn't automatically transferable to riding. Your right, it does not pay to only have your horse taking ques from you visually because once you are out of eyesight the horse becomes confused. Unfortunately that is what paralli does, the process has the horse relying so much on the person being on the ground, safely where the horse can see them. Parelli is all about making a horse "face up", you then have to ask the question what happens to the relationship when the person is on the horses back and the horse quite simply Can NOT Face Up?


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## GreenTreeFrog (Sep 26, 2009)

Isn't that where the trust from bonding would possibly come into play?


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Not necessarily. But still, the horse can't see you and get scared.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

GreenTreeFrog, The Trust from bonding is what allows me to lead a 3 yearold warmblood, who has been stuck in a stable for 2 weeks, past diggers, articulated lorries, fast moving traffic, an ambulance station (with ambulances flyin in and out) and not have him Freak out on me. He does this because he Trusts me and can see from my body language that I am not scared therefore he shouldnt be scared because IF I say it isnt a monster then it isnt a monster.

Put him in a new situation where someone is getting on his back (which is where a preditor would get on him), all his instincts are screaming at him not to allow it, He can't see my body language so he can't take his cues from that. Thus he is understandably distressed and anxious. yes part of it is him having a tantrum about doing something new but the vast majority of it is fear!

Parelli never tells you how to transfer the trust so that they dont need to see your body language. I'll get there eventualy with Reeco but it takes time! I will not be playing silly games with my horses, I don't believe that they do anything other then confuse the horse.


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## Frankiee (Jun 28, 2010)

i think alot of poeple get confused with parelli and just a well train horse yes you need a bond to stand on your horse and do all those tricks but really you can train any horse to do that right ? I think the true parelli is connecting with your horse and trusting it and it turst you !


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## Vannah (Jan 23, 2011)

Frankiee said:


> i think alot of poeple get confused with parelli and just a well train horse yes you need a bond to stand on your horse and do all those tricks but really you can train any horse to do that right ? I think the true parelli is connecting with your horse and trusting it and it turst you !



I agree. My cousin does Parelli, and her horse has the up most trust in her, on the back, or on the ground. 

I personally do not see myself as going so far in Parelli that I become a master, or even on the lowest levels. I do have some Parelli "hand me downs" such as the 1st level VHS's (and a VHS player ) but I don't want to become obsessed. 

I'll prob have my mom help me out a lot. Like I said, she says she was doing stuff Parelli prides himself on back in the 80s.


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## Lunarflowermaiden (Aug 17, 2010)

From the videos I've watched (the ones with Linda Parelli smacking around a one-eyed horse, and teaching how to properly smack your horse with the clip of your rope, then doing it to an Arab). I can't say I am a fan.

At best some of the stuff is harmless, could be useful. At worst it is abusive, and just makes things worse. 

Plus it is way overpriced.


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## netty83 (Sep 21, 2010)

I have never tried parelli but do like some of the natural horsemanship ways, but like someone already said parelli didn't invent the methods they use. Horsemen of old used some of these techniques. the marketing company and media hype is where parelli went wrong. Once he sold out his rights to the marketing company and no longer owned 'Parelli' i believe the methods become more 'showman' than 'horseman' Hey just MY opinion and don't want to influence anyone else either way.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I agree with Lunarflowermaiden, netty83 and faye.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Vannah said:


> I am personally working on finding my own opinion.
> 
> I've played the games with my cousin's horse. She swears by Parelli, and said I had to learn the games before I could ride her horses. Her horses seem to enjoy the Parelli method, and she is a Parelli master, and even went and stayed with the Parelli's for a couple of weeks for their schooling thing.
> 
> ...


I find that they do not really work. That they are all hype and no substance and before he tries to teach other show to ride and train he needs to learn how to do so himself.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Here is a quote from a Email someone posted on a forum they received from PP in a marketing attempt to sell they newest money making sceam. My comments on it in bold.

Tested and Proven as the #1 Horse Training Program Worldwide

*Really tested and proven by whom? I have never seen any independent testing results given on this method. It caters to the non show people who how has it been tested??*

Since Pat coined the term "Natural Horsemanship" more than 20 years ago, 

*Really? NH has been around for as long as horses have been around. Not a new thing contraiy to what PP wants people to think.*

the Parelli Program has become the premier horse training program of choice for horse enthusiasts worldwide. *Again based on what? *

Parelli has members in more than 30 countries worldwide with hundreds of new members joining every day. 
*Sucker born every min.* * How many stay with it once they try it for a bit? *

Hundreds of thousands of horse owners have transformed their relationships and results with their horses thanks to the Parelli Program. Simply put, the Parelli Program works.
*Not seen this to be true. I have seen so many better trained horses that do not use the PP system. How many top trainers use this system? How many World Champions? How many Million $$ riders and trainers use this system. If it was truly that good these type of people would use it.*

Don't take our word for it — come see for yourself. Once you claim your FREE 30 Day Trial Membership we encourage you to ask any Parelli student for their honest and unvarnished opinion of our program and decide for yourself whether it can help you and your horse achieve your horsemanship goals!

*Really honest and unvarnished opinion? If someone came on and really gave their honest opinion that stated anything else they would be banned. You know I am correct on that one.*


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Frankiee said:


> i think alot of poeple get confused with parelli and just a well train horse yes you need a bond to stand on your horse and do all those tricks but really you can train any horse to do that right ? I think the true parelli is connecting with your horse and trusting it and it turst you !



Thing is that it is not PP or his methods that gives the horse that trust. It is YOU. If you show that you are the leader and are not scared the horse will not be scared either. If a trainer had to build trust the way PP says it has to be done with all these games and such how may horses do you think they would get trained? My trainer is normally riding a horse with in a day or 2 of the horse coming into training. He does not have the time to play with these horses. These horses for the most part automatically trust him b/c he has the leadership role to that horse from the min he puts the halter on that horse. The horse sees that and recognizes it and from that trusts him.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

GreenTreeFrog said:


> Isn't that where the trust from bonding would possibly come into play?


I'm sorry but I honestly believe that Parelli is more about subjugating a horses responses until the RIDER feels safe rather than the horse. This is understandable for a beginner who doesn't know how to read a horse, doesn't know whether that tail swish was annoyance with a fly or the person. When a person is a beginner, starting out with horses what do you think is REALLY on that persons mind? Is it "gosh I hope that horse trusts me!" or do you think it could be "I Really want to trust this horse and be safe."? 

Enter the Parelli system of 'training horses'. Parelli appeals to the beginners of the horse world and I know this is going to sound offensive but I am going to say it anyway - the under achievers. The Parelli system keeps a horse and rider relationship stagnant by preaching that only through the seven games can trust be built. This is crap. As long as you are relentlessly playing the seven games of subjugating the horse you are showing it that you are untrustworthy and no true leader. If you have to prove your domination over your horse EVERY TIME you go into the paddock with it then something has gone horribly wrong. There is good sense in knowing the *concepts* behind the seven games, I incorporate the *principle* of them into everything that I do with my horse but they are *NOT* an end in themselves. I think at the end of the day what really gets my goat about Parelli is that it is all about making sure the horse is a perfect example of equine obedience without the person involved having to extend themselves as a horseman in any real way ( the horse can recognize the double standard too by the way! ). I have to add that the definition of a perfect example of equine obedience is very different outside Parelli circles by the way!


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## cher40 (Nov 19, 2010)

My coach and I had a conversation about this the other day. She said the same as some of you mentioned. Its not transferred into the saddle. The horses we looked at that were worked with parelli methods were not for us.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

GreenTreeFrog said:


> Bit like raising kids, many methods, not all work for all kids in every situation.


Exactly.

And that is my biggest issue with the PP system. They insist it is their way and only their way, with their equipment that will work with every horse out there.

PP is (or has) a great marketer. I will give his group credit for their brilliant marketing abilities. Past that, I see nothing.

I agree with the poster who said it was cult like.


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

My previous barn was very into Parelli and someone loaned me the DVDs, so I did a very little bit of it with my horse who at the time was new to me and a handful. 

I found that one, the DVDs were boring as hell and I could barely keep my attention on them, but most importantly my horse got irritated with me. Especially the backing up trick where you wiggle the rope and if they don't move back you whip it around.

Did that a few times and she was obviously annoyed. She learned much better with just halter pressure and will back up with voice commands now, no parelli needed. 

After watching the DVDs for the first time, it occurred to me that there are a lot of common sense alternatives to most of their exercises that may work better for some horses. Will other horses do well on parelli? Yes. But not all of them. 

I could have continued to irritated my horse until she did what I asked, some people will say I SHOULD have done that because if she didn't like it that meant she needed it...but what would that have done to our relationship? 

And as a side note I remember starting a similar topic here some time ago...LOL


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

coffeeaddict said:


> And as a side note I remember starting a similar topic here some time ago...LOL


Where the best thread ever started, too!


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I hope Cherie doesn't mind but I am going to quote her, this is a small piece of a most excellent post she wrote in this section of the forum on the thread will my horse kick. Cherie wrote:

Everyone should really take this to heart: Never peck or tap on a misbehaving horse. Spank it good and spank it more than is needed to just barely get the job done. You want it to NOT repeat the behavior and NOT try you again. If you are only going to just 'peck' on a horse, you are better not touching it at all. It only makes one madder and only makes one worse. Thrash it out good enough that it knows better than to try kicking or biting or whatever again and then you only have to do it once. Then and only then is it effective to spank a horse. If you spank one and it lays its ears back and it makes it mad, you did not do it harshly enough to make it effective and you only made the situation worse. This is how ALL of the really mean, vicious horses I have encountered got that way. Someone 'pecked' on them only hard enough to make them meaner. 
Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=76008#ixzz1Cxcae2bP

I honestly and truly believe that this paragraph encapsulates all that is wrong with the Parelli system. People "practice Parelli horsemanship", you do not *Practice* horsemanship with seven games which you use to peck, peck, peck at your horse. I know that I have taken Cherie's paragraph out of context but you can not deny that the endless pecking at horses, disguised as games can be incredibly detrimental to a horses understanding of what people want from them.

Yes, teach a horse to yield to the lightest touch. Once you have taught that lesson STOP. If you have taught the lesson properly you DO NOT have to PRACTICE!!! 

Aaaaargh Parelli!!! Stop pecking at those poor bloody horses!!!

Right (deep breathe) I'm done.
​


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Excellent posts Kiwi.  

My sentiments exactly.


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## CessBee (Dec 6, 2008)

Great posts in here people 
I would have loved to see Pat try his methods on my old boy Iceman, had a person try them on him, "because he was so highly strung and senstive" and they clearly thought it was from the way I was handling him... lets just say he gave her a powerfull double barrell boot when she tried the circle game and at all others he would just stick his head up in the ear and pretty much just go "la la la not listening to you!" she then proceeded to tell me that I should send him off to a "proper trainer" to get him "sorted out" because "he is far too much of a handfull for a novice like you"
I was like, "excuse me, he is 25 would you seriously say its worth sending him to a trainer? We get along perfectly and he does everything I want him to and I have NEVER seen him act that way towards anyone EVER, so could you please leave me alone"

Sorry for the rant haha.

But like EVERY training method, you should analyse the facts about it, look at a wide array of horses trained using that method and see if they are actually as good as the people say they are because of the training method, and also, there is almost never (there are exceptions of course) cases where there is ONE way to do things.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Good posts Kiwi and CessBee!


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Pat Parelli to me is the horse worlds answer to the Church of Scientology.

You pay lots and lots of money to move up through the levels in the hope that it will increase your understanding and make it to the 'top' where you get to meet the head honcho with a cheesy grin.








Pat Parelli









L. Ron Hubbard.

Don't get swept up with either. 

As it relates to horses: If you learn something of benefit and it works go for it. But be aware that Parelli didn't invent the methods, he just brought them to the masses. Also, research and read about as many different trainers as you can and their methods as it will make for a better balanced understanding than learning only from a single individual.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

sarahver- good comparison!


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Thanks! Except now I have pictures of TWO fruitcakes saved on my laptop - delete delete...


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Ahahahahaahhaa! Nice!


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

My definition of a cult is that *teatime *is not incorporated into their lives:

1) the leader & followers must remain *T*eachable. If someone points out a lack in some aspect of the program, a teachable spirit must be brought to the issue.

2) the leader & followers must truthfully *E*xplain when explanations are due, & explanations are always due to students who need them.

3) the leader & followers must *A*pologize when apologies are due (in PP's case, to humans *& *equines.)

Americans, in their rebellion against the British Empire, lost that most charming & civilized custom, *teatime!*

Regarding PP's teaching itself, it's vaquero horsemanship with innovations added, as per his own flat-out statement.

I'm therefore tired of people saying that he claims to have invented the horsemanship! Never has he!

I'm also tired of people falsely accusing PP of a bad horsemanship program: 7 Games are "just tricks", etc. Aside from *some* of LP's erroneous demos/instructions that've been insinuated into the program, & *some* of PP's oversights & incidents of bad judgment, the program, in & of itself, is safe & sound for human & horse.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Northern you keep believeing that, I've met more dangerous horses that have been Parellied then have been treated any other way

Pat and linda have NEVER issued an appology for the hideous "display" at the East of England Show ground. In fact they have come out and said they are proud of it! I've not seen Catwalk jump since either.

Never had an explination of what he was trying to do at that display other then completely terrorise the horse and grind it's will into the dust. - and yes I was there

The 7 games are bloody dangerous perticularly as they are aimed at novices. Playing the 7 games with some horses will get you killed.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I have reason after reason for not liking it. The biggest one, as you stated, he did not in anyway shape or form "invent" or "create" NH. And also for the fact of him putting his label on everyday training objects and selling them for A LOT more money.

And th videos.... I understand people have weak moments BUT LP is trying to teach people it's okay to whack your horse with a metal clip.... NOT OKAY!


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Good post Faye!


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

My pony goes backwards beautifuly, all I need to say is "back" and back he goes. How did I teach him this? well it certainly wasnt by waggling a rope at him or smacking him with a metal clip. I taught him this by putting my hand on his chest, saying "back" and giving him a shove, he very quickly caught on! 
Hand on the chest and shoving are there to give him *guidence* as to what exactly you want him to do, Saying "back" is to instill a voice aid so that he associates that word with going backwards, that way once the voice aid is established one can remove the hand and shove and still have him doe as you want.

He is away being broken at the moment. It has taken 3 weeks to get a rider on him but he is accepting it beautifully and in 3 weeks time I will have a horse that is fit to be seen in the show ring and can do a decent prelim dressage test (first affiliated level for those of you not in the UK)


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Hmm. Well, at the risk of being stoned by those of you who have really strong feelings, I have never seen a "parellied" horse that was dangerous, and, I have seen more than my share. I will say that the "parelli" has to be done right, but then, any training done wrong can make for a dangerous animal.

I am certainly NOT an avid Parelli follower. I have learned some of it, along with stuff from other great NH trainers. I take what I like, what works for me from all of them. Parelli, IMO, does have some things that work, as well as some things others do better. 

When it comes to "hitting the horse in the face with a clip"-well, you have just hit a nerve with me. I had a trainer once-JUST ONCE-tell me that I was mistreating one of my horses by wiggling the rope to get him to back away, making the clip hit him under the jaw. That was the LAST time she was allowed near my horse. Talk about making a dangerous animal! Sorry, but the clip pales in comparison to what another horse would do if he was being approached when it wasn't invited. This same milktoast lady trainer also got upset with me (in the same session) when I actually hit my horse (****GASP***) when he tried to kick me. She actually was a Frank Bell certified trainer.....I liked him, but her.....she took it to an extreme.

Parelli, as well as ANY horsemanship, natural or otherwise, is best when used with a good dose of common sense, combined with self preservation.
If it is him(horse) or me-it ain't gonna be me, at least if I have any say in the matter.:wink:

Keep in mind that noone has ALL the answers, and nothing is best taken to extremes.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Northern said:


> I'm therefore tired of people saying that he claims to have invented the horsemanship! Never has he!


Go back to my post in this tread. I quoted from a Email that PP sent out that stated he was the one who coined NH. So he has stated this many times. That was just the most resent I have seen.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

What does coined mean?

Frank- I don't have a problem with disciplining your horse, It was the repeated whacking of it that I have a problem with.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

PP said that he coined the term "natural hms": to coin a phrase is to create a phrase that's handy for identification or some other reason. 

Actually, I saw PP & LP on video say that LP came up with the term, & PP liked it so they went with it. 

It's so easy to prove that PP always says that the horsemanship is not his invention: "It's so old, it's new again!", "NHS is vaquero horsemanship.", etc.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Northern said:


> PP said that he coined the term "natural hms": to coin a phrase is to create a phrase that's handy for identification or some other reason.
> 
> Actually, I saw PP & LP on video say that LP came up with the term, & PP liked it so they went with it.
> 
> It's so easy to prove that PP always says that the horsemanship is not his invention: "It's so old, it's new again!", "NHS is vaquero horsemanship.", etc.


I am confused Northern. In one line you say PP and LP say it is their phrase and then the next time you are saying they say it is not their phrase.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I say that it is their phrase/term.

I also say that they always say that the horsemanship itself is not created by PP: Natural Horsemanship, the *program* for which the term was coined, is vaquero horsemanship, so not new/devised by PP.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Hu? You can not have it both ways.

It is either 'their term' or it has been around forever.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

franknbeans said:


> Hmm. Well, at the risk of being stoned by those of you who have really strong feelings, I have never seen a "parellied" horse that was dangerous, and, I have seen more than my share. I will say that the "parelli" has to be done right, but then, any training done wrong can make for a dangerous animal.
> 
> I am certainly NOT an avid Parelli follower. I have learned some of it, along with stuff from other great NH trainers. I take what I like, what works for me from all of them. Parelli, IMO, does have some things that work, as well as some things others do better.
> 
> ...


Hey Franknbeans, I agree with 90 percent of what you are saying. I began studying Parelli when I decided to bring on my first horse. As I have said I like some of the principles - still use them today. But I absolutely ruined my horse by constantly pecking at him, by not really understanding what I was trying to achieve. For me Parelli is like learning to drive without ever turning on the key. You go out and sit in the car everyday, you work the gear lever, clutch, accelerator and brake until it is absolutely seamless. And then it is decided that you are ready to drive and you get to turn the key. Suddenly when there is real power and motion involved all the "driving practice" you have done is meaningless. It is meaningless because up until you turned on the key you didn't really have an understanding of WHY you were doing what you were doing. 

The only reason I am against Parelli is because it is targeted at beginners, marketed as a training system that a novice can use on his/her horse. I totally agree that any horsemanship needs to be used with a good dose of common sense. The thing with Common sense is you can only learn what is common sense through time and experience. If a person knows next to nothing about a subject there is no common thread of knowledge from which sense can come. It has only been through time and experience, failures and falls that I have learned what I have learned and to be honest I was just lucky that my horse didn't kill me. It could be argued that I obviously didn't do Parelli right in the first place. How could I though? With no experience, no understanding of what I was trying to achieve. What I have now learned in the last 6 or 7 years is FEEL. You can't learn feel through Parelli, with Parelli you don't even know what you are looking for IS feel. I believe that an experienced horseman, with feel for horses would do very well with Parelli. On the other hand said horseman wouldn't need it.


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## azhorseluvr1222 (Dec 4, 2010)

kiwigirl said:


> I hope Cherie doesn't mind but I am going to quote her, this is a small piece of a most excellent post she wrote in this section of the forum on the thread will my horse kick. Cherie wrote:
> 
> Everyone should really take this to heart: Never peck or tap on a misbehaving horse. Spank it good and spank it more than is needed to just barely get the job done. You want it to NOT repeat the behavior and NOT try you again. If you are only going to just 'peck' on a horse, you are better not touching it at all. It only makes one madder and only makes one worse. Thrash it out good enough that it knows better than to try kicking or biting or whatever again and then you only have to do it once. Then and only then is it effective to spank a horse. If you spank one and it lays its ears back and it makes it mad, you did not do it harshly enough to make it effective and you only made the situation worse. This is how ALL of the really mean, vicious horses I have encountered got that way. Someone 'pecked' on them only hard enough to make them meaner.
> Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=76008#ixzz1Cxcae2bP​
> ...


I totally agree!! My horse was taught for parelli for a short period but noneless it was done. He is very smart and picks up on things quickly. He is definately been pecked at and he gets excedingly(sp?) annoyed with rope wiggling, and the whole yielding fore and hind quarters, he gets nervous and flighty. If you do it too long he yanks the rope and takes off, which to me is dangerous and I will not play the games with him. I simply tell him want I want and guide him and once he learns it we move on. Like I said he is very smart and learns very quick therefore he gets bored and irritated if he is made to do things that he knows well. Not saying I let him get away with not working when I ask but just the simple little things that are taught,learned and then move on. He can be a bully and I make sure he knows thats not tolerated and for me thats hard as I am a very passive person, but I do not want to get hurt. Whew that was a long one. Just thought I would let you know my expierence with a parelli started horse and that I very much agree with cherie.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I'm so tired of seeing Parelli misrepresented on these threads:

1) Parelli is *against* nagging/"pecking", & it's clearly taught in the program!

2) "Feel" is an *intrinsic, ongoing* part of the PP program, & again is clearly taught!

And so on & so on! Another recent complaint that I read was that PP has people micromanage the horse; this couldn't be farther from the truth, as the program, from Level 1 with Pushing Passenger lesson, teaches one not to micromanage!


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

what does intrinsic mean? and what does micromanage mean? sorry... I think I'm being bothersome...


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

If PP is misrepresented so much, then there must be something to it. If so many people have problems with it or with the horses that it has been practiced on, then there must be something to the zillions of complaints.

As I said in the other thread, I will not even go look at a horse that is advertised as 'Parelli trained' because of all of the ones I see that are mean or at least, ill tempered and mad all the time.

I will be the first to admit that Pat Parelli is a good horseman. He has feel and timing and can 'read' a horse very well. Those are the qualities that make him a good horseman and trainer. Those things are NOT taught by his program or any other program to inexperienced people. They are learned and developed by a person. They are learned MUCH easier and much more correctly if there is one on one feedback from a mentor or instructor that can intervene and correct the person when they do it poorly. DVDs and tapes don't tell a person when they are doing it badly. They are learned best by a person with a natural 'gift' for feel. On top of that, some people never develop good timing and feel -- never -- even with help. 

The main failings I see with the Parelli disciples are:

They think there is no other way to become a good horseman. They are true disciples--- and they are wrong. There are many excellent horsemen out there that never used a single PP technique.

And they think it can be done correctly without the help of a real, live person. I think this is why I see so many ill-tempered horses that have had neophytes attempting to train them with only a DVD as an instructor. They AREN'T using PP's techniques ---- they just THINK they are. He inflates their ego as big as his is and the horses get incredibly mad and spoiled. 

Of course HE doe not do it wrong and this is not what HE intends to teach. It is just how it comes out with a lot of would be and wanna be disciples.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I agree! Well said!
Nothing can take the place of a good trainer. Like a real, live trainer.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I do not think he is a good trainer or rider. Seen him ride a horse he has trained and it was ugly to say the least. Incorrect and just wrong.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Just curious, how did it look wrong? Did the horse misbehave?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Here is a good example of what he is doing incorrectly and showing it like it is correct and making people think that is how it should be done. NOT. Starts once he drops the ball.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Those were messy spins. I didn't really notice much? anything else?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Just about every movement he tries is incorrect. Even the Dressage movements are incorrect.

Check out some of his other videos where he is riding. There is one where he is moving a horse around the arena. He tries to stop the horse and turn him on the wall and just about comes off the horse. Now that would have been funny.

Also it is not just that they are messy they are asked for incorrectly and look at where his hands are.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAha!!!! I just watched the parelli bloopers! OMG "you can see Montana through that crotch!" I lost it lololol


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

The whole thing was UGLY! I am not sure what it was he was trying to do, but it wasn't working for me at all, and that is one unhappy looking horse! 'Course I would be tooo if he was yanking on my mouth like that!


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Ah I see I see! I didn't really see that.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Maybe we should start a whole NEW type of "parelli" page=a ROAST! hahahaha!


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Ahahahaha! Nice!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Thanks for posting that. I had never seen it. It IS terrible.

His hands are 'rough' and offer no release. He is simply yanking and jerking and riding the reins like a beginner.

The horse is not 'soft' and has not -- for 1 second -- given to the bit. But then, no horse would if ridden with those hands.

His horse is fighting the bit and showing great resistance throughout the entire clip.

His horse is wringing its tail and showing more resistance.

His 'spin' is horrible - a minus 1 to 1 1/2 on any judge's score card.

Not one time has this horse been brought into proper frame. That would require his jaw and neck to be soft andnot braced as it is. That would require his belly and top-line to be lifted instead of dropped and braced. That would require the horse bringing its hind end underneath it -- but it can't because of the bracing in its face, neck, shoulders and back.

This is not only poor reining and dressage technique but poor general horsemanship. 

Again, thanks for posting.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

My problem is the fact that he is portraying this as correct and what you can get with his program. If that is what you get run run fare and fast.

If this was just some joe shmoo I would not have a big problem with it. Every rider goes through things like this. They try something and do not know any better. He is suppose to be a pro trainer and clinician showing how it should be done. That is my problem with him.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Cherie, I think that you could be right about the one factor that can cause failures in the home study courses: the fact that the student has no on-the-scene mentor. (to help with feel)

To compound the problem, (& I opened a thread on other forum to discover weak link) what with the phenom of wacko Levels graduates & PP "instructors," one _could _be hard pressed to find a decent PP mentor. 

Re: PP's ride on Magic: not his best demo of his hms, but I must say, that's not his usual! You can find many vid's online of him doing a great demo, like of his bridleless & bareback ride of a white horse, going up hill & down dale over jumps.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Northern said:


> Re: PP's ride on Magic: not his best demo of his hms, but I must say, that's not his usual! You can find many vid's online of him doing a great demo, like of his bridleless & bareback ride of a white horse, going up hill & down dale over jumps.



I watched that video. While it was not a bad ride it lacked the finess you have to have with a reiner and Dressage horse. I am not saying that was easy to do bareback and bridleless what I am saying is that with a bit of control it can be done. I can ride all my horses bridleless. It is not a hard thing to do with a well trained horse.


Also I will say this from personal experience. Take off the bridle or drop the reins and do a maneuver and you get out of the horses way and the horse will respond better to leg and seat. Take that bb and Bridleless ride and put a saddle and reins in his hands and I bet it would be back to yanking and pulling on the horse.

If he was all he clams to be he would be consistent in what he is doing. He is not. That speaks volumes to me at least. Go and watch riders like Shawn Flarida, Tim McQuay, and other top proven trainers. They are always consistent.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I know; it's what I call the Parelli "loose screw" phenom! It produces incidents like the ride on Magic & the Catwalk incident, that, agreed, don't occur with other bnt's.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Before I say anything I would like to say that some of the things Pat does with his horses are amazing. Not to say that others don't do the same things, but videos of Pat riding bareback and halterless are much more available and accessible for the general public, therefore he receives more credit for doing it. I enjoy watching them. I don't use his methods.

Here is the thing with the Parelli program for me - it is marketed to predominantly beginners, the inexperienced or first time horse 'trainers'. Well of course it is, those with experience have their own tried and tested methods. While some people choose to incorporate some Parelli methods with other methods, they are not the 'norm'. The 'norm' is to progress through the levels with the exclusion of outside opinion or input.

The problem with the way the Parelli marketing is delivered, given it is sold as a program for 'anyone', is that in many ways, other training methods are strongly discouraged. This leads to a tunnel vision approach to training and is not the way to learn in any facet of life.

So, I can see that Pat himself is a good horseman (although it is unlikely he would be _competitive_ in any dicipline by National standards) the way his training program has evolved is what attracts the criticism.

I have always said that if I thought a Parelli method would work better for me in a given circumstance, I would be open to trying it. I just haven't been in a circumstance yet where my own training methods (learned from many different horse people) haven't sufficed.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Speaking of training Gurus riding badly --

Have you seen the introduction video of Monte Roberts on his TV show that comes on HRTV?

He is riding a professionally trained reined cowhorse in a romal and his hands are even worse than the Parelli clip. It is very obvious that this was a well trained horse trained by someone else who was cringing if they saw him put this ride on it. 

I can guarantee that M.R. NEVER trained a reining or reined cowhorse in his life. One with his poor riding skills could not have trained a finished horse of any discipline.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

It's good to have the attitude of, "If you have a better way, please show me!" So, if you never investigate what others are doing, you won't know if they do something better for the horse, agreed! 

It's a productive attitude, for the horse; not a bashing attitude toward the trainer who doesn't know the better way.

Caveat: It's counterproductive, however, to skim over a program, (never really "get" it!), broadcast a twisted view of it, drop it due to your own trials of emotional growth (you're going to be out of your comfort zone if you're really learning!), etc. All that's what I see all too often, regarding PP, as mentioned in earlier post.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Northern said:


> It's good to have the attitude of, "If you have a better way, please show me!" So, if you never investigate what others are doing, you won't know if they do something better for the horse, agreed!
> 
> It's a productive attitude, for the horse; not a bashing attitude toward the trainer who doesn't know the better way.
> 
> Caveat: It's counterproductive, however, to skim over a program, (never really "get" it!), broadcast a twisted view of it, drop it due to your own trials of emotional growth (you're going to be out of your comfort zone if you're really learning!), etc. All that's what I see all too often, regarding PP, as mentioned in earlier post.


I am going to assume that the caveat in this post is aimed at me.

I would like to rebut your statement by saying that I bought all the level one "stuff" on good faith that it would set me on a course that would allow me to train my horse. I live in rural NZ and have no access to a Parelli mentor but then the products are marketed in such a way that you don't realize that you are going to need one. The DVD's were less than helpful, they were frustrating, confusing and caused me no end of self doubt. There was absolutely NO trouble shooting help, just endless images of PP with a horse seamlessly performing everything perfectly. Nowhere did he offer solutions on what to do when my horse was rearing endlessly at the end of my line - the horse in the DVD never did that! My horse of the time never even came close to behaving like the horse on the DVD but there were no solutions presented on this "instructional set of DVD's, nothing.

Was my horses behaviour my fault - you bet. Did I know any better at the time? No. Should I have? Hard to say really, I had spent several hundred dollars on instructional DVD's that offered me no instruction what so ever. Oh did I mention that I ended up feeling so frustrated that I ended up scrimping and saving so I could pay one of the few Parelli gurus in NZ to come and help me with my horse. I paid $700 to watch one hour of this guy work with my horse, doing stuff that IN NO WAY resembled anything on the DVD's. What a joke, and it was on me.

I knew that some shmuck was going to pipe up and say "you did the program wrong". Well, Northern screw you, I did the program as I paid a several hundred dollars for it. Someone give me my money back!


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I haven't seen Monty's new show. Do you think there would be videos on youtube or something?


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I like watching training videos on youtube. A lot of them show you with horses that aren't trained already. And they're free!!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Why oh why does this question of Parelli and the validity of his methods , program and marketing techniques get people SO hot under the collar? I mean, critisize Monty Roberts, or Cllinton Anderson or Julie Goodnight and it doesn't start a firestorm. Why PP?


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

'Cause they know they are wrong but don't want to admit it? LOL


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## CessBee (Dec 6, 2008)

Because by far PP is the one with the largest following.

My friend who does parelli came over yesterday and saw me riding about bareback with a bridle but not using the reins at all and doing all the manouvers id usually do, ie collection, extention, transitions and jumping and my mare was listening to me perfectlly and she said "I see you've finally started parelli then." as if it is the only way to achieve such a result. I said "No i havnt, this is the result of me achieving a bond with my horse via my own methods which dont involve paying silly ammounts of money on the dvds and equipment." she then said "but surely you are playing the games?" me "nope, parelli isnt the only way you know "


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I agree completely Cessbee! And thanks for sharing!


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> Why oh why does this question of Parelli and the validity of his methods , program and marketing techniques get people SO hot under the collar? I mean, critisize Monty Roberts, or Cllinton Anderson or Julie Goodnight and it doesn't start a firestorm. Why PP?


It's probably the moustache :wink:


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## gkturnerjr (Jan 19, 2008)

I have not really read alot into them because the people that I know that have worked with parelli horses say they are hard to work with if you do not already know their methods... my wife and I like Clinton Anderson... all of our horses respond well to this so far


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

(I skipped all posts after kiwis first statement, need to answer that now 

Kiwi, I absolutely was *not *aiming my post at you! I wasn't even thinking of you as *one* of the people who've been unfair to PP's program, moreover, I wasn't thinking of you *at all! (or anyone else*, just to troubleshoot )

*Ok*, back to reading.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> Why oh why does this question of Parelli and the validity of his methods , program and marketing techniques get people SO hot under the collar? I mean, critisize Monty Roberts, or Cllinton Anderson or Julie Goodnight and it doesn't start a firestorm. Why PP?


I know, huh? I find it an interesting puzzle. Possibilitities:

1. The role modeling: PP's charismatic & LP's a hottie in lots of people's eyes, PP & LP have a successful partnership romantically & business-wise, they teach safety with horses, they're living their all-American success story, so folks wanna be just like them.

2. As far as the humble horsemanship itself: PP's an innovative horseman, & LP's come up with catchy stuff, too (Fluidity). They've added the element of fun to the learning process. 

3. Marketing: obviously, they propagandize gorgeously that their way/tools/courses, etc. are IT, superior in all respects.

4. It's *easy* to be a kool-aider: Kool-aiders can hand over their independent thought & questions of the horsemanship program/any incident involving a horse, in exchange for the perks, one of which is how easy it is to not check out reality for yourself, to ignore the hard questions, to avoid the awkwardness of asking PP the hard questions.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

You know, after re-thinking, I believe one of the techniques I use with horses may have been derived from a Parelli method, perhaps you can tell me if you recognize it Northern?

It is for horses that are spooky of objects. In short, I was told to direct them away from the object with my hands (i.e. through rein contact) but to _push_ them towards the object with seat/legs. The overall effect being that the horse garners comfort from the fact that you are 'steering' them away from the object but in actual fact the end result is that you walk past it in a relatively straight line without the huge 'spooky' response. Works a charm.

I didn't learn this from a video, but from another trainer years ago who heard it from someone else who apparently got it from Parelli. No idea if it really is a 'Parelli' method or not. Either way it works. But brings up another interesting point: I am willing to listen to a trainer that is in front of me and has good advice because I can ask questions for greater understanding. Learning from a video is not interactive enough for me which is probably why I wouldn't consult the Parelli series for advice if I needed it.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Northern said:


> I know, huh? I find it an interesting puzzle. Possibilitities:
> 
> 1. The role modeling: PP's charismatic & LP's a hottie in lots of people's eyes, PP & LP have a successful partnership romantically & business-wise, they teach safety with horses, they're living their all-American success story, so folks wanna be just like them.* I find that insulting. I find him anything BUT charismatic, and she is nothing more than a Barbie doll. About as much brain, too, IMO.*
> 
> ...


Frankly, I think the answer is simple to me. PP has managed to market himself very, very, well. The others, even CA and the likes are not as prolific in putting out dvd's (my theory would be they are actually DOING horsemanship, rather than all the blah blah blah of PP). The Parelli name is out there, and he is the one that most people know the most about. Good, bad, and the very ugly. (especially that squirrel on his lip.)

Yes, I happen to take lessons and board my horse at the barn of a "Parelli" instructor. Therefore, I am pretty familiar with much of it. However, I am very fortunate that my instructor is NOT one of the totally brainwashed Parelli types, and realizes that Parelli methods are one way, NOT the only one. He was a trainer, and a good one, PRIOR to becoming PP ceritified. I have NO idea what possessed him.:wink:

There was real NH prior to PP and there will be after.

FWIW-Totally agree with the statement someone made about PP mot adressing issues with the horse not doing as planned-others do. CA for one.

Again-totally looking forward to the Road to the horse in a couple of weeks-it will be a good one for sure!


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

sarahver, that technique isn't in my Level 1 or 2, but I may have seen it during my month of being a savvy club online member, when I had access to all past sc dvd's. I think I do recall seeing that. I def recall them saying don't try & force horse to approach the object.

To be sure, you could ask *spirithorse* who's in the thick of it, might still be at PP's land. She hangs out on Natural Horsemanship under Horse Training.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

frank&beans, no, I'm not a kool-aider! I could never have posted what I have & be a kool-aider, right?

I can't be a kool-aider because I reserve the right to retain my own critical thinking, & ask my questions of PP & org.

I've tried to discover the actual facts of Parelli: the cult phenom, as well as the problems & successes of the horsemanship program, the latter having helped many horses.

Supporter of the good, *constructive *critic of the bad.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

^^Just thought I would throw it in there. I heard (through two degrees of separation) that it was a Parelli method and took that for granted. Tried it and it worked. Whether or not it is a Parelli method and whether or not it was around before him I can't say for sure.

The point is, I was open to trying the technique, no matter where it came from, as it made good sense to me. The fact that it worked was additional benefit. Don't get me wrong, I don't own a single DVD and don't plan to. But if a trainer that I have respect for tells me that he uses a 'Parelli' method, can explain how and when it is used and to what benefit, I'll probably give it a go.

But I'd probably have to be there in person to hear the explanation. Just my own personal preferance.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Exactly Sarah. That is why it is So good to take all the tips you can, try them and if they work for you one thast horse-great! If not-back into the toolbox to try on another one at another time. 

Northern-sorry-I kinda see you as a kool-aider.....a bit too PP for me, but we can agree to disagree. Shoot-that is what I do every day at the barn, and we all get along great!


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Well, in Pat's own words, NHS is simply vaquero horsemanship, so the vaquero's prob pointed the nose away from the object, but legged the haunch toward it.

frank&beans, hey, you can't say that, I haven't cloned LP's style, & I still bug them with my inconvenient questions!


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Northern said:


> Well, in Pat's own words, NHS is simply vaquero horsemanship, so the vaquero's prob pointed the nose away from the object, but legged the haunch toward it.


Other wise known as leg yeilding the horse towards something spooky!
Been around in common sense horsemanship for far longer then PP has been alive!


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## CessBee (Dec 6, 2008)

OK i dont mean to seem as if I am bashing Parelli and I do feel that the theory behind what they ask for is very sound, its just that its become far to marketed and cult like.

I feel in my opinion that horses that have been "Parellized" they seem to ONLY respond to that technique which very much limits the horses versitility to me, a well trained and behaved horse should be able to be handled or ridden by many different people of different levels and techniques of working with a horse. Now I know many Parelli horses that if you try and handle them in any other way they flip out and are totally confused. Now compare that to other horses that have been trained in differnet ways and they seem for more able to accept other people in their handling and/or riding.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

faye said:


> Other wise known as leg yeilding the horse towards something spooky!
> Been around in common sense horsemanship for far longer then PP has been alive!


As I mentioned, it was entirely possible that it was around before Pat. However, if the Parelli steamtrain makes that knowledge more accessible then power to the people who benefit from that knowledge.

It is my belief that it is the tunnel visioned ones that give Parelli the name it currently has.

Did he invent all of the techniques? No. But has he delivered them to a greater audience? Yes. I guess my main point is that it doesn't really matter _where_ you learn an effective technique from, as long as it is effective.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

The method you speak of to get horses over spooky thing is very much NOT a PP innovation.

I used this method for more than 50 years and I don't claim to have discovered it. No later than 1960 or 1961 I started using this method when I found quite by accident that a leg yielding maneuver would get about any horse focused on me instead of the spooky object. 

It has nothing to do with giving the horse comfort. It has everything to do a horse being able to focus on only one thing at a time and I want that thing to be me. I want him to have more respect for me than his fear of anything. 

I watch a horse's ears and the second that ear away from the object comes back to me, I know I have him. I will then go back and forth several times until I can use minimal leg pressure and the horse will go with his body straight or nearly straight, bring that ear back to me and not waiver from a straight path.

PP was just a child, John Lyons had never held a clinic and the only clinician that was in existence then was Monte Foreman -- a man well ahead of his time.

As far a modern-day Clinicians, I would have to go with Clinton Anderson and his newer set of DVDs. They are much better than his earlier ones. He actually shows horses while they are spoiled and misbehaving and show methods to straighten them out. He does not get lost in details and micro-management but is straight forward and effective. He does get a little carried away with his flexing, but it for sure gives you the ability to stop any horse in his tracks before he can become dangerous. 

I know several people that have gotten some or all of CAs DVDs and have gotten along surprisingly well considering they knew little to start with. 

CA started decades after PP, but he has quickly become one of the most followed clinicians in the country.

Whoever said that their PP instructor was an accomplished horseman before joining the PP bandwagon got it right. I know two PP 3 star instructors (well one quit after getting enough of his own students) and both were good trainers long before they jumped on the PP bandwagon. They decided he did such a good job of promoting that they wanted to use him to get students for them. It worked. They got more student and could charge a lot more.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I learnt to leg yeild horses toward spooky thing from Ponyclub, they used BHS methods which according to PP is an evil restrictive method.

SeeWhat I hate about all types of "Natural" horsemanship (not just PP, butMR and others too) is that they all seemhell bent on sitting on a horse in one session, or fixing a problem in one session (catwalk issue with PP, Loading problem horses by MR etc). What ever happened to taking your time? to slowly and surely. 
Reeco has been away now for 3 weeks, they havent sat on him yet but when they do it will be when he is happy and settled with it, no need to force the issue!

Stan when we first bought him took 3 hours toload and then only went in the trailer when his back end was picked up by 4 burley men! Took me several weeks but I had him walking in first time every time, never stressed him, never worried him, never stressed him. I made loading something he wanted to do, a pleasent experiance for him (to the point where he would load himself and refuse to come out).


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

[quote:] I feel in my opinion that horses that have been "Parellized" they seem to ONLY respond to that technique which very much limits the horses versitility to me, a well trained and behaved horse should be able to be handled or ridden by many different people of different levels and techniques of working with a horse.[/quote]

This complaint has been posted a lot, but I've never seen the phenom, & it makes no sense to me. Any horse only has the handler's "feel" to go on, secondarily, the timing, techniques & balance that all add up to "savvy". If a handler first feels of the horse so that the horse can feel back to him, & the handler continues to feel of his horse so that the horse can continue to feel back, they'll partner up fine. Parelli can't be blamed for another person's not getting with his horse.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Gosh, I said it once, I said it twice, now I will say it a third time:

I am not saying that PP invented the method. Read what I have written please. I said that I heard about it from someone who heard about it from someone else who apparently heard it from some PP source. Mmm-kay?

Just using it as an example of

a.) Although not necessarily original information, the knowledge is more widespread thanks to an effective marketing campaign.

b.) Just because a method is 'Parelli' it shouldn't necessarily be discounted purely through association.

As I said originally: If it makes sense to me and is presented to me by someone whose judgement I trust, then I will try it.

As _also_ I said in my original original post, I just haven't been presented with a situation in horse training that I didn't feel I could handle with the knowledge I have obtained from several different trainers of the old school variety.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Cherie said:


> He does get *a little* carried away with his flexing, QUOTE]
> 
> You gave me a good belly laugh there! Understatement of the century!
> 
> How about every horse he rides being constantly behind the vertical?


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Whoever said that their PP instructor was an accomplished horseman before joining the PP bandwagon got it right. I know two PP 3 star instructors (well one quit after getting enough of his own students) and both were good trainers long before they jumped on the PP bandwagon. *They decided he did such a good job of promoting that they wanted to use him to get students for them. It worked. They got more student and could charge a lot more. *

That is exactly why I think he did it in the beginning, and yes, it is working. Smart on his part, IMO. 
This complaint has been posted a lot, but I've never seen the phenom, & it makes no sense to me. Any horse only has the handler's "feel" to go on, secondarily, the timing, techniques & balance that all add up to "savvy". If a handler first feels of the horse so that the horse can feel back to him, & the handler continues to feel of his horse so that the horse can continue to feel back, they'll partner up fine. Parelli can't be blamed for another person's not getting with his horse. 
 
Northern-I think peoples complaints come from the whole "feely" "partner stuff. 

 THere are some of us, who yeah, want to be a partner of sorts, but I guess we think the horse should be more of a silent partner. Yeah-I am more than happy to listen to how my horse thinks he would like to do it....bottom line-he will do what I ask, when I ask. Hopefully, I will learn to ask in a way he likes, at least some of the time. Frankly, I cringe when I hear about "joining up". Just seems hokey to me, and I think that is some peoples impression of the whole "feeling" thing. 

Sorry of this comes up all funky letter sizes-I have NO idea why it keeps going from big to micro mini...lol


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Northern said:


> This complaint has been posted a lot, but I've never seen the phenom, & it makes no sense to me. Any horse only has the handler's "feel" to go on, secondarily, the timing, techniques & balance that all add up to "savvy". If a handler first feels of the horse so that the horse can feel back to him, & the handler continues to feel of his horse so that the horse can continue to feel back, they'll partner up fine. Parelli can't be blamed for another person's not getting with his horse.


Sorry but in the above phrase "if the handler first feels of his horse" makes no sense however you read it. Feels what from his horse? or do you mean sends feelings to the horse? or do you mean to get a feel for the horses mental state? please clarify

However back onto what you were saying about the methods themselves. My horse will respond to anyone. I can hand the reins to a complete stranger and he will obey them, he will lead just as well for them as he will for me. I've handed the leadrope for my 3yrold pony to my brother who is completely non horsey and my baby behaved and walked with him just as well for him as he did for me. No relearning of respect needed just hand over leadrope and go. This is because he has been taught manners and that humans are boss no matter how big or small (Reeco enjoys having his knees brushed by 4yrold kids and wouldnt even dream of raiding thier pockets, he will give them gooey eyes for mints but he would never search thier pockets).

I know full well that should I be injured or in hospital ANYONE will be able to handle him, he will behave and he will be an absolute pleasure to deal with in all situations. I pride myself on the fact that my ponies manners and general behavior is commented on in a positive manner wherever we go. My last yard owner couldnt believe that I could get up on a box and clip a 3yrold ponies ears whilst he was loose in his stable (didnt bother with a head collar as he doesnt need it). Or that 2 days after moving stan to that yard I was happy for someone else to deal with him when I had to go home for a few days (no need for them to get to know him, he would behaveno if's buts or maye's).

I've yet to meet a parelliized horse that I would be happy handing over to someone in the event of an emergency. Infact I'd be downright mortified by the behavior that is seemingly deemed as allowed!


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

> Northern-I think peoples complaints come from the whole "feely" "partner stuff.


I'm not talking about anything hokey/divorced from the reality of the horse.
The "feel" that I'm talking about is your presentation to the horse, that is *all that he has to go on*. The horse can feel your intentions & emotions, & if you want to have *more* than a master/slave relationship with him, then you 'll deal with your intentions & emotions so that they are Friendly/Helpful.

Like Pat says, "Anybody can make a horse do something, but can you cause your horse to want to do it/be with you?


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I agree with Franknbeans my horse does as I say, when and as I say it. He gets very little say in the relationship and that is how it should be. 
All my horses are happy to see me, they all want to be around me because they are secure in thier position in the herd.

Reeco is so happy to see me that he will canter to me in the field 100% of the time. The rest all come to call (normaly much faster then at walk), they all whinney everytime I see them. I can sit in the middle of the field and ponies will come and stand with me. I've walked up to stan who was lieing down in the field, sat down next to him and he shoved his head in my lap for petting. All give cuddles and kisses and go everywhere with their ears forwards. Go in a trailer? of course they go in the trailer!, go in a strange stable, yep do that too. Walk under a curtain of rattly beads (fly curtains for commercial kitchens)? yep no problem. Give kisses and cuddles, yep that too, infact they all love kisses and cuddles.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Then, you've got a good feel going between you & your horses.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Let me address the 'behind the vertical' comment. This comes from over-doing the flexing thing. It is also the reason I believe he has had problems with showing World level reiners. His horses are so thoroughly trained to give to bit pressure and get behind the bit so thoroughly that they have short, mincy little steps when they do their turn-arounds and they back quite slow and again with mincy steps for World-class reiners. 

I do not know how familiar you are with current reining trends, but a horse being behind the vertical and a horse with its head carried low in not a fault but a modern trend. I, personally, do not like it, but they have proven that a horse can keep its shoulders up while its head is down. They have proven that a horse behind the vertical can slide 30 feet, change leads smoother than a dressage horse and do it all at a full run or collected in complete frame on a loose rein and do it very well at 3 1/2 years of age.

How is it so different than the rollkur technique that the Grand Prix dressage riders use at home? I know it has come under fire but it has not stopped the top trainers and riders from using it.

Where CA shines is in his program for beginners and teaching them to get their spoiled, pushy horses under control. Over-flexing is never going to be a problem for them and he does not pretend to put out reining DVDs. He leaves that to Flarida, Schmersal, McQuay etc.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Cherie said:


> Where CA shines is in his program for beginners and teaching them to get their spoiled, pushy horses under control. Over-flexing is never going to be a problem for them and he does not pretend to put out reining DVDs. He leaves that to Flarida, Schmersal, McQuay etc.


 Praise the Lord for _that!_

Informative post, Cherie!


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Thanks Cherie-the whole "reining" thing is where my current instructor and I agree to disagree. I cringe every time he even mentions PP doing reining, or suggests I might like to try the PP "reining" saddle. Again-I will at least listen to his theories on basics, but prefer to listen to any others above (and more, as you mentioned) when it comes to something as precise as reining. Noone, horse nor person, can do everything well, IMO.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Cherie said:


> Let me address the 'behind the vertical' comment. This comes from over-doing the flexing thing. It is also the reason I believe he has had problems with showing World level reiners. His horses are so thoroughly trained to give to bit pressure and get behind the bit so thoroughly that they have short, mincy little steps when they do their turn-arounds and they back quite slow and again with mincy steps for World-class reiners.
> 
> *This has nothing to do with why PP will never be able to ride train or show World Class reiners. He has no clue as to what it should be. The video I posted showed that. That horse was not behind the vertical nor was it well trained IMO. It was a horse who was forced to turn and did not learn how to turn properly. All my horses flex to where every I want them to be at. I can get my reiners to flex to the point their nose it touching their chest and still do all the maneuver correctly. However that is not the look I want and will not score well in the show pen. *
> 
> ...


CA and Stacy Westfall to me are trainers Proven in what they do. Where PP is a showman in the seance he likes to take a horse and do neat things with it to catch the newbies eye and say you too can do this after you buy all my DVD Halter and caret sticks.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Aah, I love to watch a Flarida trained horse do his thing. I think the thing that caught my eye most about him above all the others is that most of his horses actually finish out their rollbacks as opposed to jumping out halfway through. I love that.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I agree. He does all the little things that makes it look easy. Which it is not. He also takes the horses natural ability and uses it. I also like the fact that ZFH passes that stop down.


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## heartscontent (Jan 11, 2009)

Here's what I learned!
PARELLI IS NOT FOR BEGINNERS! Clinton Anderson is better for beginners. Parelli can be hard to follow for someone starting out. 

I used to dislike Parelli very much. I agree that it doesn't work for all horses but I've found some horses that it works with. Here's what I think now. I used to be very anti Parelli.

1. I was anti because I met some ladies who never rode their horses and had bored pushy horses in a roundpen whenever they worked with them.
2. People told me Parelli didn't use bits, etc.
3. I met more crazy Parelli people
4. I can't stand Linda Parelli

But, then I got a hold of some Parelli videos where he's actually working the horse and not advertising his products. And I was surprised to see him actually do decent groundwork. He was firm enough with the horses. He didn't let them run all over him like the cult ladies do with their horses. You can tell he's not an idiot about working with horses. But I sure do hate his advertising where he stands there and talks and talks and talks. So now after learning more about the actual Parelli method and seeing photos of Parelli people actually riding in reining, english, etc, I can see it's not so bad. I also finally tried it and it works great if you know horse body language. 

I unfortunately also saw some videos of Linda. She is rough, has no good timing, and doesn't have good feel. I avoid every single video that Linda is demonstrating. She doesn't seem horse savvy to me.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

heartscontent said:


> Here's what I learned!
> PARELLI IS NOT FOR BEGINNERS! That's not gospel, folks; I for one disagree. Clinton Anderson is better for beginners. Debatable! Parelli can be hard to follow for someone starting out. Ok, that's fair, but the content is great for safety & all the beginner skills.
> 
> 1. I was anti because I met some ladies who never rode their horses and had bored pushy horses in a roundpen whenever they worked with them. Yup, we know the wackos are out there.:shock:
> ...


I had fun responding to your post; hope y'all benefit from my responses.


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

I have not read the entire thread, so forgive me if I am repeating things that have already been said. 

I had my first horse as a 10 year old girl, so 12 years ago now. We studied up on Parelli and applied it to our horses then (My Mum and I that is.) It was fun although did get a bit stale. Obviously being so young at the time I don't recall very much of it now.

I do know that watching Linda flap her gums now is boring and not helpful at all. When we got back in to horses after almost 10 years without them, Mum joined the "savvy club" to gain access to some of the Parelli dvds that you can't get otherwise. I, for one, was disappointed to see them all presented by Linda. She does nothing for me in the way she presents things and the hypocrisy behind the whole thing.

I used to see it as something that was over marketed, to the point that complete beginners were picking up horses that were way above their skill level and thinking they could Parelli them in to being perfect my little ponies. I thought it had it's place, but it needed to be made clear that it does NOT work for every horse and it CAN be over done.

Unfortunately, after watching some more recents videos of the Parelli's exploits I can't even say that anymore. The things they preach and expect poor saps to pay for is nothing like what they seem to actively practice. I can not understand the reasoning behind screaming "love, language, leadership" at the top of your lungs when you are not supporting it with your actions.

But then again, it makes them money, because people continue to pay for their teachings when it is becoming apparent that they don't even believe in it themselves.

Sorry for the rambling.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*One point PP's not guilty of:*



HowClever said:


> complete beginners were picking up horses that were way above their skill level and thinking they could Parelli them in to being perfect my little ponies.


The program teaches that one is to emark upon Level 1 with the most seasoned, gentle horse that one can find, due to fact that the horse is teaching *you* at first.

If beginners go against this totally clear directive, the heeding of which is intrinsic to the beginner's success & safety, it's not PP's fault.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Northern said:


> The program teaches that one is to emark upon Level 1 with the most seasoned, gentle horse that one can find, due to fact that the horse is teaching *you* at first.
> 
> If beginners go against this totally clear directive, the heeding of which is intrinsic to the beginner's success & safety, it's not PP's fault.


I decided to dig out my Parelli Basics box set of DVD's. Nope. There is nothing like that written ANYWHERE on my set. They must send the faulty stuff to NZ because they know we're too far away to come and do their kneecaps.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Northern, if the horse is_ already_ seasoned, then why would it need to be Parelli-fied? An already seasoned horse doesn't _need_ to be taught; it's the newbie human that needs instruction, which they can better get from a human trainer.

Your post makes no sense. If my horse is already trained, why would I want to take it backwards by subjecting it to the Parelli games? Any horse who is seasoned is just going to get annoyed with you if you're irritating it with what it considers silly nonsense.

Plus, your post about PP being 'The Source' scares me. You sound like a religious fanatic when you talk about him. Fanaticism of any kind scares the poody out of me.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Kiwi, I chuckled at "do their kneecaps" LOL that is funny.
Or "put them is cement galoshes"
rock them to sleep with a rock ...


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Pat Parelli is a human not a saint. His program is good educational material and it is a good program. I have seen both ends of the spectrum: people that love it and people who hate it. 

The people that hate usually don't spend much time learning it and only hear things second hand like it's circus tricks, it's a program for people not horses, then I saw a level one horse do this... etc etc. What I have to say to that is first probably best to spend some money and actually study it a bit with an open mind before coming to a conclusion. Yes obstacles are used in the program to help develop a conditioned response. Yes it is a people teaching program but horses are also taught. Within the program a level one horse has very little knowledge so it they act out then I'm not surprised. 

However, yes there are people out there that are extremely annoying. Parelli is the all knowing, all being etc etc. OK that's not true either. Parelli is just a human as I mentioned earlier. There are lots of people just learning and because they get good success through PP they begin to stand on a soapbox looking down at everyone else. I have seen people do some pretty horrific things all in the name of Parelli - In fact I'm re-educating a Parelli horse right now. 

Specifically about the Parelli organization is that they have in the past advocated that beginners teach their own horses.... OK let's get real. Maybe that can work but I think that people learning do need someone to mentor them - like a real live person  The biggest problem with finding someone to mentor you is finding someone that is actually really knowledgeable. That is the what Parelli is trying to do through their university. I know that in my community people start training professionally and you should see their resumes: like I started riding at age 5 and my mom and dad put me into some lessons. The horses taught me and now I'm ready to take your money. That is not good enough for me. I believe that horse training is a vocation and just like any trade there should be an apprenticeship. I see that Clinton Anderson does one and so does Doug Mills and so does Pat Parelli. Anyways now I'm rambling


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Great point SR! I tried to learn PP when I first got interested, with my calm, seasoned gentle gelding, who most who have ever even seen him would agree is about the most gentle thing ever. I have NEVER been able to get him to do anything NH. I started with trying to get him to circle.....like PP said to and he looked at me like I had 5 heads! Put him on the lunge-said "trot" and he did it. Guess he didn't understand why he needed to learn anything new. Plus, I have never seen that statement on ANY PP program I have watched (or started to, since I fall asleep rather quickly....;-)


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Jiminy, Speedracer, I was not alluding to PP as some idol--just capitalized "source" for emphasis. 

Re: the directive to start L1 with the most bomb-proof thing that you can find, I _know_ it's true, but don't recall if it was in Level 1 pack itself; SO if not, that's an error on their part. They've put out 3 versions of the Levels, & I haven't seen the latest, so can't tell you if the directive's in there.

Anyway, a seasoned horse teaches a gunsel, that's always the right combination (green human with teacher horse/green horse with experienced human who can therefore teach the horse).

Horses teach humans, humans teach horses, is one of PP's principles.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I've got the new levels pack and it doesn't say anything about getting a well educated horse that I can remember. I do however think it should say that one should get a horse that is already taught or find someone who can teach your horse. That is definitely one thing I disagree with. I know a Parelli professional who says she won't train anyone's horse because that would leave the student unempowered - Ok that is nonsense. In fact, that is one of the services they should provide. Yes I have horses that I trained without Parelli that are very good well behaved horses and did think that the games were weird. But they learned them very quickly except for the one QH that is really laid back. It took a lot to get her to do any of it and quite frankly I just thought why bother 'cause she's already perfect.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Because of the number of times that I heard/came across the directive, I came to believe that it was right out there for anybody starting the program.

If it's not in the new Level 1 material, it's of course an omission that must be corrected, for people's safety. Anyone can call PP toll-free & ask them to do so. I'll pass on this one, because I've got another PP iron on the fire at the moment, & I don't have the new Level 1/haven't looked through it.

Please make absolutely sure that the directive to have the brokest horse possible if you're a gunsel starting on Level 1 is missing from the new Level 1 material! It'd be more appropriate for someone who's got it to communicate to PP about it, I trust you'd agree.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Tell you what Nothern, I'll look at it again and if you PM me then I'll remember to PM you back to let you know for sure. But you know I still think it should be a Parelli educated horse. I've watched a few level 1 clinics and I tell you I feel very sorry for those horses. It's not good for the people either.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I think that the rule that your Level 1 horse must be Parelli-educated is too stiff. Lots of people have well-broken horses that'd be fine.

I'm certainly interested to know if the directive's in the new Level 1, so, yes, please scan the material & I'll pm you as to your findings after the weekend. Thanks!


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

i'm not a parelli horseperson, just a horseman that happened to be taught by parelli.

the parelli program is just like any other horse training (or any other) program, it can be done well or it can be done badly.

parelli himself confesses that it's not about what you do it's about how you do it, and it's not about what you use it's about how you use it, and that "his" concepts are "what all the great horsemen in the world do" which is very true in that his main concept is negative reinforcment (the pressure comes on and doesn't leave untill the horse gives the right response, and if the horse is non-responsive the pressure gets bigger as necesarry) which is the most widely used equine training method avaliable, and has been for centuries.

to not even consider learning from him & his methodology compromises your horse.
to not even consider doing anything other than "parelli aproved" methods compromises your horse.

both of my mares do slide stops off my seat, canter departs off my seat, have beautifully collected gaits and are as light as a feather, both of which do all this in the plain rope halter i made the mistake of buying from parelli (waste of money, local tack shop does the same thing for less) & a bit of black army rope i use as a mecate

broke them both in myself, neither of them have ever worn a bit and for the first part of our training we didn't even bother with his halter.

all of which i learnt from parelli's concepts (NOT his program, his "program" is a bit BS, and the concepts aren't even his as he says himself) but i do thank him for passing on this knowledge to me so I in turn can mould these concepts into a "program" that suits me and the horse i'm with at the time.

oh and his equipment is grossly overpriced. i learnt this hard way.
his DVDs, which are equally as overpriced, don't contain any usefull information at all, except his new level 1 dvd, the rest is him repeating the same thing over and over on different horses and using the same thing (negative reinforcment) to achieve different things.

in summary; parelli is not "good horsemanship" and parelli is not "bad horsemanship", good horsemanship is simply that and same goes for bad horsemanship, how you learn it however is entirely up to you, parelli (the concepts he teaches, not his program) just happens to have worked for me.

new to this forum, i am 17, mildly autistic (for some reason has given me an ability to read facial expressions and body language in animals, noticed it when i was very young with our pet dog i was the only one who could "anticipate" her biting/barking), and break in/develop horses for lots of moneys  decided to make an account here just to say this. but i do look forward to being active and taking/giving lots of well informed opinions here


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## wild horses (Feb 11, 2011)

Hi

parelli and natural horsmanship is like like any other form of training and the bible.

In the right hands in a person who knows what they are doing its great. But with the ignorant and the idiots you get a crazy 'cult' following which is utter madness

but yes people watch the videos suddenly become instant trainers/experts and their horses are usally all kinds of crazy and uncontrollable.

is it the bible or the how you interpret the preacher that creates crazy fanatics?


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

wildhorses, yes, the wackos who don't "get" the program are not the "preacher's" fault.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Northern said:


> wildhorses, yes, the wackos who don't "get" the program are not the "preacher's" fault.


It is if the preacher is spewing the wacko philosophy. Which is a lot of ways is what PP does. You can see it in his adds. Heck there is one that runs here on this forum. It states that this program is the only one you will need.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> It is if the preacher is spewing the wacko philosophy. Which is a lot of ways is what PP does. You can see it in his adds. Heck there is one that runs here on this forum. It states that this program is the only one you will need.


I agree.

Before you posted it here, Northern, I have never ever heard anyone else say that the program requires you to have a made horse to learn on. 

I would have a ton more respect for them if they did.

They market to total beginners and insist their program is all you will ever need.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

christopher said:


> new to this forum, i am 17, mildly autistic (for some reason has given me an ability to read facial expressions and body language in animals, noticed it when i was very young with our pet dog i was the only one who could "anticipate" her biting/barking), and break in/develop horses for lots of moneys  decided to make an account here just to say this. but i do look forward to being active and taking/giving lots of well informed opinions here


Welcome!

Are you aware of Dr. Temple Grandin?

Dr. Temple Grandin's Official Autism Website


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Great post christopher! And welcome!


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Im still trying to decipher Northern's "tea time" post...


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Yup, cult leaders offer kool-aid only, when they should be offering tea!


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Tea or coffee ;-)

I went to the Parelli website yesterday to look up some costs and saw that there is a levels getting started DVD which I don't have. Now it could be that the directive to beginners regarding the type of horse or getting help otherwise, is in that DVD. I don't know but I have a feeling that it may be. 

or how about lattes?


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

TheLovedOne said:


> Tea or coffee ;-)
> 
> I went to the Parelli website yesterday to look up some costs and saw that there is a levels getting started DVD which I don't have. Now it could be that the directive to beginners regarding the type of horse or getting help otherwise, is in that DVD. I don't know but I have a feeling that it may be.
> 
> or how about lattes?


Ok, TLO, you come up with the 5 extra things they should be offering that start with l-a-t-t-e! :lol: Refer to my "tea" post for those already covered.

Next, you call PP toll-free # & ask if the directive is any blooming where in their materials these days. Then you report your findings here. Vigilance, club member #2! As club Founder & President, I have spoken.:twisted:


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

yes master


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Roflmao!


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Northern..did you happen to see LP's horse (I think it was allure) double barrel kick the crap out of her assistant while she was figure 8 lunging him around barrels on RFD yesterday? LP laughed. I didn't think it was funny at all.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

LP's a terrible horseperson. PP is pretty good himself, but his wife is hopeless.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*Tell me more! As club Prez, I need to know!*



Starlite said:


> Northern..did you happen to see LP's horse (I think it was allure) double barrel kick the crap out of her assistant while she was figure 8 lunging him around barrels on RFD yesterday? LP laughed. I didn't think it was funny at all.


Starlite, I don't get RFD, so, nay/neigh, I saw it not! If it was Allure, he's a huge dark red warmblood with some sort of blaze. 1. Was this live? You'd think that they'd omit that if it wasn't live. 2. Did the assistant get hurt/fall down/what? 3. Did LP add words of savvy/of any sort, to her laughter? 4. Is your conclusion that LP's laughter showed lack of concern for her assistant?

Pray tell!


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## heartscontent (Jan 11, 2009)

I agree about Linda. She's not very horse savvy. However Pat is very horse savvy. I avoid watching episodes with Linda explaining and showing horse handling techniques.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

my mother likes linda though. saddens me when i hear her repeating or using LP's bs. there is no logic behind her methods.

her and pat preach directly opposite things in fact, in several different parts of their DVD series.


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Northern said:


> Starlite, I don't get RFD, so, nay/neigh, I saw it not! If it was Allure, he's a huge dark red warmblood with some sort of blaze. 1. Was this live? You'd think that they'd omit that if it wasn't live. 2. Did the assistant get hurt/fall down/what? 3. Did LP add words of savvy/of any sort, to her laughter? 4. Is your conclusion that LP's laughter showed lack of concern for her assistant?
> 
> Pray tell!


1. no.
2. she got kicked directly in her shoulder/arm. I am sure it stung a little.
3. No. Just laughter.
4. Yes.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I can't believe that LP would be so nasty! How terrible - although I'm not completely surprised. I agree that LP is very bad although she has gotten better from the first time I watched her. But she really shouldn't be in any of the DVDs and it's sad because there are really good people in the Parelli organization that should be featured not LP and not just PP. 

What a story Starlite.


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## slc (Jan 30, 2011)

I have no respect for either of them, frankly. The following are all my opinions on the subject.

To me, they're just like a couple of dumb roughnecks. I call them Larry the Cable Guy and his Wife. 

I have no respect for them. To me, they simply don't ride or handle horses well enough to deserve any respect from me.

I know teenage girls with no instruction who handle horses on the ground and ride better than either of them do. I know little old grandmothers who can do more with a horse easier than they do.

The horse Pat couldn't bridle, that was just SAD. Just stop knocking the horse around and put on the bridle, Pat. Cripes. I am not sure either of them really 'get' other breeds at all. They certainly don't 'get' warmbloods.

Linda's 'dressage' performance is just - it's awful. I don't know if she'll ever be any good, no matter who she takes lessons from. I just don't think she has the mental capacity to learn that stuff or the physical ability to do it. Too many bad habits from years of doing her own thing I guess - or she just can't absorb the teaching, I don't know. People see her riding in a double bridle on a warmblood and they go all Gomer Pyle - trust me, it really is not good.

Pat did not do all that well in reining - in an era when hardly anyone was competing in it, judging was very unsophisticated and it was very, very easy to win.

None of the 'top' celebrity video trainers, as far as I can tell, have anything to offer. None of them.

No matter what rap they have, they all have this pressure on them to put on a performance and come up with some ridiculous lofty sounding explanation that makes them sound better than everyone else, that to my way of thinking is anathema to decent horse training.

It takes time, it doesn't always have a cool sounding explanation.

And actually I don't feel having a large number of devoted students means a doggone thing. There have been fanatics all down through history that have had a big following. All that requires is to follow PT Barnum's guidelines, summed up in, 'There's a sucker born every minute'.

To me, they all look like Steve Martin in 'Waiting for the Light'.

I just don't like any of them. And I think when people say, well, I HATE this one, but this OTHER one, he's really COOL!!!! That...I don't know what to call that. Differential Marketing, Branding, Cognitive Dissonance, I guess.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

slc said:


> I have no respect for either of them, frankly. The following are all my opinions on the subject.


OK then who do you respect?



slc said:


> I know teenage girls with no instruction who handle horses on the ground and ride better than either of them do. I know little old grandmothers who can do more with a horse easier than they do.


Really? Where do you live? 'cause I don't see many really good people out there at all.



slc said:


> The horse Pat couldn't bridle, that was just SAD. Just stop knocking the horse around and put on the bridle, Pat. Cripes. I am not sure either of them really 'get' other breeds at all. They certainly don't 'get' warmbloods.


I'm not trying to defend Pat at all here BUT I really couldn't tell what happened in that video. What I do know is that warmbloods that get messed up can be REALLY tuff to change. I do think that Pat can handle warmbloods. I mean he doesn't have the riding beauty that say Leslie Reid does but I don't think she would be able to handle a 17hh Oldenburg that decided you must leave my back  



slc said:


> Linda's 'dressage' performance is just - it's awful. I don't know if she'll ever be any good, no matter who she takes lessons from. I just don't think she has the mental capacity to learn that stuff or the physical ability to do it. Too many bad habits from years of doing her own thing I guess - or she just can't absorb the teaching, I don't know.


Linda is hard to watch - totally agree. She is not very good with her body because she is not fit enough. You have to be really fit to ride it well. Also, she is trying to find a way to develop a program through Parelli and frankly I think that is a bit challenging. I saw a DVD with her doing some shoulder yields and she talked about that leading to flying changes. I'm still pondering that one. But to say Linda's mental capacity is somewhat below average is really not fair. I think that she's pretty smart and had a good career in marketing before PP.




slc said:


> Pat did not do all that well in reining - in an era when hardly anyone was competing in it, judging was very unsophisticated and it was very, very easy to win.


I have no idea if Pat did well in competition or not but I have seen a lot of dimwits doing terrible things all in the name of competition. I think competition brings out the very worst in people in general. Consequently, I don't give it much credence at all.


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## heartscontent (Jan 11, 2009)

I know teenage girls who run their horses for an hour before riding on a lunge or roundpen. I see horse people who's horse is in pain and they choose to ignore the signs. I see older ladies shaking from fear of their horses. These mentioned people don't do Parelli. I cringe when people's method is always to tranquilize and twitch before they get a vet or farrier to come out at some big barns. Then I see the same people have a difficult time leading their horse without a chain. And when they ride they mainly have their trainer ride because they don't know how to handle their horse. At least Parelli has hands on activities to go with horses instead of just handing him off to a trainer and plopping on it's back for your weekly lesson and then selling him because he isn't acting perfect for you. Trust me I see many terrible horse training techniques, all non involving any Parelli. Many people ride with harsh bits, spurs, and gadgets on their horses. What makes them better than Parelli folks?


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## slc (Jan 30, 2011)

It more sounds like you're just mad that I criticized a hero of yours? These are really more like rhetorical questions or even 'you're a dope' questions, LOL.

I think _both of them _are very bad at what they do - one poster said only one of them is. My point of view is different.

I think it's perfectly fine if someone doesn't agree with me. I have no interest in changing anyone's mind. Your question was 'what do you think of Parelli' not 'I want to hear only positive responses to pat and linda only on this thread'. I answered your question. You didn't mention, 'and oh yes, if you don't agree with me I'll browbeat and pick on you til you either do agree or slink away in shame'.

Re teenagers and horses. Yes you see good and bad in all groups. I didn't say you wouldn't. Did I. No. I said I saw teenagers without any training that did a better job than parelli. I've also seen teenagers that were awful with horses. My point was exactly what i said, i've seen kids who handled horses better, and I'll add, yes, even tough horses. 

Pat and Linda's 'Slappy Happy' method, I don't think it really works with really tough horses. From what I've seen for decades, it only works with smaller, quieter, submissive horses. NONE of the horses I've ever seen either of them 'conquer' were tough horses.

*'Who do you respect'*

Lots of horse people, just not celebrity trainers like Anderson, Parellis, etc.

*"Warmblood horses are really hard to fix once they're messed up".* 

Not any more than any other active, smart horse is hard to fix. And if the horse isn't a problem til he works on it, that's a problem with him, not the horse. 

You asked for opinions. I told you mine. 

I am not in the least concerned if anyone doesn't agree with me. Everyone is entitled to believe what they want to believe.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Parelli isn't for everyone and i strongly believe it has done some good for many people and their horses. I will never refuse to sit and watch Parelli, in the past i used to insult him and make fun of him. But he is just another horse person trying to make it in the horse world. Sure his methods may be flawed and not perfect but thats what works best for _him_. Every trainer has their set backs, and every trainer has their strong points. 

No matter who the trainer is or what they specialize in you can learn something from them, wether that is what to do or what not to do. I dont think you should follow any trainer step by step and do exactly what they do, you run into problems that way. Each person needs to develop their _own_ style. 

I slightly annoys me when people bash Parelli, unless he is doing something abusive to the horse shut your mouth! He has worked hard and made a very good living building his training business which is more then _any_ of us have ever done. I think he deserves alot more credit and respect then people give him. Hes not perfect but neither are any of you. Hes just trying to survive in the industry like any trainer. He has his way and you have yours. Plain and simple.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

christopher said:


> [LP]
> her and pat preach directly opposite things in fact, in several different parts of their DVD series.


*christopher*, would you be so kind as to name the main directives that LP & PP teach which are in opposition to each other? (you just dropped a bomb; you can't not tell us!) Also, if this is true, it means PP allows such chaos to exist in his teaching, which makes him out-to-lunch in a big way!

*Starlite*, thanks so much for answering! I'll make sure to file your report in our top secret club folder!

*slc,* why go snarky here & accuse TLO of being involved in hero-worship of PP, etc? If it were true, fine, but TLO is so obviously not a kool-aider, that you've either not read her posts or whatever.

We're all making our points without "going there"; we're all trying to be polite & constructive here, that's the main thing. If one of us gets a fact wrong, like that warmbloods are harder to fix, so what? Just nicely correct it, please!


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Northern said:


> *slc,* why go snarky here & accuse TLO of being involved in hero-worship of PP, etc? If it were true, fine, but TLO is so obviously not a kool-aider, that you've either not read her posts or whatever.
> 
> We're all making our points without "going there"; we're all trying to be polite & constructive here, that's the main thing. If one of us gets a fact wrong, like that warmbloods are harder to fix, so what? Just nicely correct it, please!


Northern..I find your "tsk tsk" attitude toward SLC misplaced..I and others have pointed out specific cases of outright ABUSE that have been caught on camera (there is no denying these examples) that Parelli's have subjected either their horse(s) to, or to their human students (i.e. laughing when your horse viciously kicks your assistant, while following YOUR instruction)..and yet you choose to either not acknowledge the situations specified..or make some condescending remark about it..still not really addressing the concerns being mentioned. 

Please save your condescension, mother-henning, and other drivel for those not capable of critical, independent thought. It obviously is a failed tactic here. We see the abuse, the sham, the over priced tools, the crook-like mentality of a program gone wrong. No matter how hard you try to twist it, bottom line, it's a marketing ploy. If I were you, I guess I would also vehemently defend it, as you are probably embarrassed that you have allowed yourself to become a victim of a scam.

I know nothing of the parelli's as people personally, but the treatment (by both of them) of both horses and people that I have witnessed with my own eyes, is reprehensible and they will never see a red penny of mine.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

slc said:


> It more sounds like you're just mad that I criticized a hero of yours? These are really more like rhetorical questions or even 'you're a dope' questions, LOL.


I'm not angry. I really just wanted to know who you do respect since I heard who don't respect - I was just curious nothing more.



slc said:


> *"Warmblood horses are really hard to fix once they're messed up".*
> 
> Not any more than any other active, smart horse is hard to fix. And if the horse isn't a problem til he works on it, that's a problem with him, not the horse.


Seriously... I find warmbloods the most hyper-sensitive and then aggressive horses of all the various breeds I've handled. I find that if mistakes are made they better not be serious mistakes or else someone will pay.  They are not very forgiving and then so athletic that it'll knock your socks right out of the ball park.



slc said:


> You asked for opinions. I told you mine.


I did. I assume you're addressing me?



slc said:


> I am not in the least concerned if anyone doesn't agree with me. Everyone is entitled to believe what they want to believe.


Totally.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

heartscontent said:


> Trust me I see many terrible horse training techniques, all non involving any Parelli. Many people ride with harsh bits, spurs, and gadgets on their horses. What makes them better than Parelli folks?


You and I must live in the same area


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

.Delete. said:


> I slightly annoys me when people bash Parelli, unless he is doing something abusive to the horse shut your mouth! He has worked hard and made a very good living building his training business which is more then _any_ of us have ever done. I think he deserves alot more credit and respect then people give him. Hes not perfect but neither are any of you. Hes just trying to survive in the industry like any trainer. He has his way and you have yours. Plain and simple.


Agreed. There is a lot worse out there. Is PP a super human - no he's just a human. His program is a framework and is only as good as the person using the methods, principles etc. He doesn't advocate abusive methods so my hat is off to anyone like that


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

TheLovedOne said:


> Agreed. There is a lot worse out there. Is PP a super human - no he's just a human. His program is a framework and is only as good as the person using the methods, principles etc. He doesn't advocate abusive methods so my hat is off to anyone like that


i found his display with Catwalk 100% abusive. And a vulgar display of power.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Starlite said:


> i found his display with Catwalk 100% abusive. And a vulgar display of power.


IMO he did what he felt was necessary to get the job done. I don't find it to be abuse at all. Maybe a little over the top but certainly not abuse

What do you think of twitching then? Or hobbling a horse? Perhaps tying a horse's leg up? The majority of the big names in the horse industry do use aids such as that an when used correctly they can be very effective. So what if you don't like it, then don't use it plain and simple. Complaining about it does no good.

An AQHA judge once told me that "the people watching the class are always experts and will be the first ones to tell me that I'm wrong". And its so true, you go to a horse show and listen to people talk about how someone is riding a horse wrong or how the judge is stupid and has no idea what he's doing.

Just shut up already. Clearly he is a remarkable horseman and has made him self a million dollar industry because of it. If you don't like his methods then that's fine you don't have to. To each is own.

I'm tired of these endless Parelli debates on here. If you don't like him cool, you can't please everyone
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Starlite said:


> . Please save your condescension, mother-henning, and other drivel for those not capable of critical, independent thought. WOW! It obviously is a failed tactic here. WOW! We see the abuse, the sham, the over priced tools, the crook-like mentality of a program gone wrong. No matter how hard you try to twist it, WOW!bottom line, it's a marketing ploy. If I were you, I guess I would also vehemently defend it, as you are probably embarrassed that you have allowed yourself to become a victim of a scam.WOW! Just WOW!


O-kaaay! I spoke too soon in saying that we're all trying to be constructive here. 

I'll leave your venomous words for mods to decide if they were deserved.


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

.Delete. said:


> IMO he did what he felt was necessary to get the job done. I don't find it to be abuse at all. Maybe a little over the top but certainly not abuse
> 
> What do you think of twitching then? Or hobbling a horse? Perhaps tying a horse's leg up? The majority of the big names in the horse industry do use aids such as that an when used correctly they can be very effective. So what if you don't like it, then don't use it plain and simple. Complaining about it does no good.
> 
> ...


Shut up?? What are you 3 years old? 

The reason the Catwalk issue was so controversial..is because it directly contradicts his entire philosophy. The definition of "Natural Horsemanship" states: _"Natural horsemanship is the philosophy of working with horses by appealing to their instincts and herd mentality. It involves communication techniques derived from wild horse observation in order to build a partnership that closely resembles the relationships that exist between horses." _I've never seen wild horses hobbling/twitching one another..have you?

*If you don't like Parelli debates, stop participating in them/reading them.* If you put yourself in the public eye, the public will form their opinions, as they are entitled. As a public figure I am sure he and his wife are aware of this and care less than you do about what people say about them on an internet forum.


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Northern said:


> O-kaaay! I spoke too soon in saying that we're all trying to be constructive here.
> 
> I'll leave your venomous words for mods to decide if they were deserved.


Venomous? Seriously? I am sure you will be ok.

Edited to Add: I went back and read many other comments that say virtually the same thing (scam, sham, waste of money, cruel, marketing ploy, etc etc.)


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Starlite said:


> Shut up?? What are you 3 years old?
> 
> The reason the Catwalk issue was so controversial..is because it directly contradicts his entire philosophy. The definition of "Natural Horsemanship" states: _"Natural horsemanship is the philosophy of working with horses by appealing to their instincts and herd mentality. It involves communication techniques derived from wild horse observation in order to build a partnership that closely resembles the relationships that exist between horses." _I've never seen wild horses hobbling/twitching one another..have you?
> 
> *If you don't like Parelli debates, stop participating in them/reading them.* If you put yourself in the public eye, the public will form their opinions, as they are entitled. As a public figure I am sure he and his wife are aware of this and care less than you do about what people say about them on an internet forum.


I said my peace, and I leave it at that. I agree there are flaws in his methods and "advertising". I also agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Starlite said:


> The reason the Catwalk issue was so controversial..is because it directly contradicts his entire philosophy.


I also wanted to point this out to *Delete*. * Two* issues were involved: one, flat-out, the way PP handled Catwalk, & two, the fact that PP had written in his bood that he won't use tools of force/restraint, such as twitches, & that they are "akin to rape".

*Starlite*, there's a big diff between critical words for PP & personal attack on me/my motives, which is what you engaged in.


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## heartscontent (Jan 11, 2009)

Pat Parelli is not a horse god..he is not perfect
You are not perfect with horses
I am not perfect with horses

So Pat makes mistakes..you make mistakes..I make mistakes that may go against out philosophy.


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Northern said:


> *Starlite*, there's a big diff between critical words for PP & personal attack on me/my motives, which is what you engaged in.


If you are offended, I am sorry.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Starlite, I accept your apology.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I actually just laughed when I heard PP was my hero... still laughing. Sorry about my opinion on warmbloods 'thou that is where I stand on that one but I do think that they are incredible to ride - wowsa! 

I really can't see what PP is doing in that video - I just don't know what else to say. 

Now Christopher you really must list the PP and LP things that are in direct conflict as I too am dead curious.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

TheLovedOne said:


> I actually just laughed when I heard PP was my hero... still laughing. That caused me to spit out my non-kool-aide beverage, as well! :lol: Now Christopher you really must list the PP and LP things that are in direct conflict as I too am dead curious. Thanks, TLO! christopher?


I mean, how can there be conflicting directives in one teaching without total chaos/confusion ensuing amongst the students?:shock:


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Inquiring minds need to know how this could be. I'm thinking that Linda talks about Finesse and Pat talks about Freestyle. It's only a guess  

Spitting out your non-kool-aid - that's gotta hurt.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Today's the first day of the 3-day competition colt-starting, Road to the Horse, with PP, CA, & Chris Cox contending, & I just watched PP chasing cows on his Horseman's Apprentice, & I also read his & CA's & CC's answers to a pre-event interview, & I gots a confession ta make: I want PP to win. I mean, unless he really doesn't do as good a job as one of the others/both of them.

I just really enjoy the guy, find myself smiling/laughing along with him when he does. In horseman's terminology, I get a good "feel" off of him!

This is NOT to say that all of my questions for him have disappeared/I've become a glug-glug kool-aider! I'll say, "Whoa! I need you to explain this!" to any teacher, because every teacher must have that "tea" to offer me (teachable spirit, explanations when needed, apologies when needed, to human or horse).

That said, "GO, PAT!"


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## heartscontent (Jan 11, 2009)

Northern said:


> Today's the first day of the 3-day competition colt-starting, Road to the Horse, with PP, CA, & Chris Cox contending, & I just watched PP chasing cows on his Horseman's Apprentice, & I also read his & CA's & CC's answers to a pre-event interview, & I gots a confession ta make: I want PP to win. I mean, unless he really doesn't do as good a job as one of the others/both of them.
> 
> I just really enjoy the guy, find myself smiling/laughing along with him when he does. In horseman's terminology, I get a good "feel" off of him!
> 
> ...


Glad your keeping an open mind.
Now I read the road to the horse article and Clinton has a major ego. He is all about winning and not about the horse. At least for this event. 
I will be cheering for Pat and Chris Cox. I love Pat's reply about how he will win 100% of the horse's heart. I think he really cares about horses. 

BTW did anyone read the interesting article about Pat in Portugal in 2010? He really had to show his method with no picnik tables, balls, or his usual stuff. I think the reason why we see this type of Parelli tours in the U.S. is because most people are easy to impress in the us. And that type of thing(bareback/bridleless/games) impresses a lot of backyard folks who flock to the shows. Anyways Parelli is much smarter than I thought he was previoustly. 

We on the forum, are harder to impress. Lol.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

heartscontent said:


> Glad your keeping an open mind.
> Now I read the road to the horse article and Clinton has a major ego. He is all about winning and not about the horse. Yup! That stank! At least for this event.
> I will be cheering for Pat and Chris Cox. I love Pat's reply about how he will win 100% of the horse's heart. Yes! Great answer! I think he really cares about horses. Quite clear, isn't it?
> 
> BTW did anyone read the interesting article about Pat in Portugal in 2010? No, missed it. PP has always said that it's not about the ball/table/trailer, so I knew that.


I looked all over internet for news of day one, & found nothing.


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## heartscontent (Jan 11, 2009)

Here's the interview.
Inside the 2011 Road to the Horse | EquiSearch


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

Northern said:


> *christopher*, would you be so kind as to name the main directives that LP & PP teach which are in opposition to each other? (you just dropped a bomb; you can't not tell us!) Also, if this is true, it means PP allows such chaos to exist in his teaching, which makes him out-to-lunch in a big way!


i did drop a bombshell. here it is: LINDA preaches in one of her savvy club dvds (the one from mid 2010, with the girl with the annoying voice who just keeps saying "ok") that, while riding in an arena, if the horse keeps turning to the left by it's own accord, the rider should keep the horse turning LEFT, untill it's back on the line it was originally on. the (stupid) logic behind this is that the horse will think "oh, she just keeps turning me all the way around, and we're going back the way we were. why don't i just behave and maintain straightness?".

in the new level 4 DVD, in the finesse portion, pat preaches that in the arena patterns, if your approaching a corner and you feel the horse begin to turn in whatever direction, immediately follow it by a turn in the OPPOSITE direction, to build straightness, and to have the horse ask questions rather than make assumptions.

the difference is, LINDA's method is complete rubbish and pat's method is highly effective. both are DIRECT opposites.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Thanks, heartscontent, for link. christopher, thanks for answering. 

Sounds like L was doing the Game of Contact: when a horse deviates from what's asked, the rider says, "Let me help you go there", & so it's reverse psychology, & the horse then says, "Can't we just do what you wanted?" because what he wanted he finds to be less fun than he thought it'd be.

I know Pat teaches reverse psychology in many horsemanship situations.

With riding into a corner, with a left or right turn as the options, & the horse wants to turn left, seems that there's nothing in allowing the horse to pick his direction that will be less fun than he thought it'd be (the turn was inevitable, just the direction had to be decided).


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

L was doing a passenger lesson, on a loose rein, with her student riding in a halter.

"let me help you go there" isn't reverse psychology.

in a clinical environment such as an arena, if your approaching a corner with left or right turn as the options, you should turn the opposite of the way the horse wants to go (i've seen pat do this countless times, but rarely have i heard him teach it). untill the horses "asks you the question" (which is something pat preaches) of which way to go.

THAT is reverse psychology.

on another topic, the "game of contact" does intrigue me however. at least the version of it i've heard does anyway.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

christopher said:


> "let me help you go there" isn't reverse psychology.


Yes, it is: rider wanted horse to go straight, yet when horse wanted to deviate, instead of putting him back on the straight, rider said, ok, as you wish, then horse said can't we just go straight, which is what rider wanted in the first place.

Another example is leading a horse up to trailer, then stopping him before he himself stops, then backing him, & repeating this till horse says can't we just go in? which is what handler wanted in first place.

Turning a horse opposite of way he wants to go is direct opposition, not reverse psychology.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

in my experience the horse will never say "can't we just go straight" or "can't we just go in".

using that theory, you could say this:

using parelli's yo-yo game, you can back a horse. but whenever it gets crooked or shaped up to the left or right, you send it into a circle game in the direction it was facing while crooked, or the direction it shaped up to go. the horse will then say "going backwards straight = less work than going backwards crooked".

but in reality the opposite is true. if the horse always shapes up to go one way while your backing it, and you always send it the direction it's shaped to go, in future the horse will anticipate (horses learn by anticipation, "what happens before what happens happens" in other words) that your going to send it that same way. this anticipation will lead to even more crookedness as the horse shapes up to be prepared for an easy depart in the direction it anticipates your going to send it.


this is why linda's "let me help you do the wrong thing" bs is great at amplifying unevenness in go/whoa and left/right turns. you can't expect that if a horse has unevenness, and you help it be even more uneven, somehow that will achieve straightness. that is simply irrational. in truth it will achieve exactly what this suggests, which is even more unevenness, as opposed to the straightness and maintenance of gait we desire from a good yo-yo/circle game.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

that's how linda's methods compromise and conflict pat's methods.

the fact pat has allowed his wife to suggest such things says a lot about the mans tollerance (or dare i say, ignorance). hats off to him.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

For some reason, I still don't like either of them... I love Monty Roberts and hope CA or CC wins, I like them a lot too!


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Well, actually, I am for CA or CC too, bot after yesterday at the RTTH, I was rethinking. Pp seemed more humble than I Had seen before, and did really good demos. However, after the cutting "clinic" he just did, complete with his total dig directed to CA's cowwork yeterday-he has lost me totally again. That waa not his best political move. You could hear the audience gasp. Great job, PP-
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Maybe b/c I show and ride reiners. You NEVER let the horse go in the direction he wants to go. If you do no matter what you do after that point the horse will start thinking for itself. Once that happens it is very hard to get them to stop. I want horse to always be waiting on me. Never in front of me and my cues. If you let them go the way they want they are not waiting on you.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

christopher said:


> *in my experience* the horse will never say "can't we just go straight" or "can't we just go in"..


Operant words, there. Because you've never seen a horse ask, "Can't we just go straight/go into the trailer/whatever, doesn't mean it's never happened. It has worked time & again. *I've* seen reverse psychology work time & again with horses. Untold numbers have gotten their horses over loading issues using reverse psychology as I described.

We can't go into paralysis of analysis/theorizing over what'll work. Horses don't care about our theories. We can't even go into logic for our answers to horsemanship. Horses don't operate via our logic, necessarily.

A couple more examples of reverse psychology that've worked with many horses:

When a horse wants to get nibbly/pushy with his mouth on you, say, ok, & rub his muzzle just a bit harder than is enjoyable for him, so he'll say, "Can't we just do something else?"

When a horse wants to go right-brain (scared of everything & wants to run away) the human says, ok, & helps the horse to run around, till horse says, "Can't I just relax?"

These & more examples of reverse psychology are in PP program & are endorsed by PP. Hope that helps!


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

christopher said:


> the difference is, LINDA's method is complete rubbish and pat's method is highly effective. both are DIRECT opposites.


Not that you're highly opinionated or anything... ha ha.

Well I was truly hoping for something a little more definitive and I'm not sure that is actually here.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Anyone else watching the webcast? The rope is cool - that's neat - OK enough already with the rope....please


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

Northern said:


> Operant words, there. Because you've never seen a horse ask, "Can't we just go straight/go into the trailer/whatever, doesn't mean it's never happened. It has worked time & again. *I've* seen reverse psychology work time & again with horses. Untold numbers have gotten their horses over loading issues using reverse psychology as I described.
> 
> We can't go into paralysis of analysis/theorizing over what'll work. Horses don't care about our theories. We can't even go into logic for our answers to horsemanship. Horses don't operate via our logic, necessarily.
> 
> ...


then why does parelli put such an emphasis on the theory of his program? i did the theory, presented linda's theory in a way that compromised pats theory, proving that linda's parelli's horsemanship program compromises pat parelli's horsemanship program.

if a horse bites, "rubbing his muzzle harder" isn't what linda suggests. she might not even know this, but her theory indicates that if a horse bites we should solve that by sticking our fingers inbetween its teeth and wiggling them around.

"thats ridiculous!" says the linda afficiandos, but if you actually studied the theories behind her methods you'd find this to be true.

what you called "direct opposition" is pats method, direct opposition with pressure that comes on slowly and releases quickly. thats how we get horses to "ask us questions"

pat says this, in one of his newwest riding dvds he is in the arena on magic and says that when approaching a corner with a turn or a stop in the corner as the options, you should wait untill the very very very last moment to choose an option, and if the horse picks an option before you, do the opposite. he words it slightly differently "if you feel the horse bank to turn, stop in the corner and if you feel the horse going for a stop in the corner, bank to turn"

the horse will establish a pattern of asking a question when approaching a corner. if the horse banks to turn left and you turn it sharply to the left, it will establish a pattern of the horse banking even harder to turn left in anticipation of the hard left turn.

"what happens before what happens happens"


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

christopher said:


> then why does parelli put such an emphasis on the theory of his program? Pat's "theory" classes are based on *experience. *i did the theory, presented linda's theory in a way that compromised pats theory, proving that linda's parelli's horsemanship program compromises pat parelli's horsemanship program.
> 
> if a horse bites, "rubbing his muzzle harder" isn't what linda suggests It most certainly* is*, & Pat's, too! she might not even know this, but her theory indicates that if a horse bites we should solve that by sticking our fingers inbetween its teeth and wiggling them around. Just get with a horse, as he's your best teacher! He'll show you what works with him, guaranteed! Armchair philosophizing avails little.
> 
> what you called "direct opposition" is pats method,BUT HE USES REVERSE PSYCHOLOGY WHEN THE SITUATION WARRANTS IT.


To say that L & P are opposing each other in the program, by the claim that only L uses reverse psychology/Pat never uses reverse psychology is just wrong.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

yes. horses are the best teacher of horsemanship. and i've never seen or actually heard of a horse being anywhere near successful using linda's methods. but i've seen countless reining & cutting horses and top performance horses whose trainers do direct opposition (with pressure that comes on slowly and releases quickly, of course) rather than being a passenger and doing lindas brand of reverse psychology. although the choice is up to each individual, i know which i'd rather choose, and as a trainer myself which i'd rather endorse.

i'm all for being a passenger, and as CA suggests, spending time purely developing an accelerator and brake while leaving the steering for another day, but i simply can't see the sense in linda's new method of being a passenger, it follows no time tested or proven equine psychologies (whereas pats psychologies follow vacqero principles, which are time tested & proven). and i've never heard of it's use before she suggested it.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Linda has her own program - this is the first I've heard of that. I think maybe you don't know too much about dressage Chris or finesse. Maybe that's what's confusing you but don't let your ego get in the way of learning


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## heartscontent (Jan 11, 2009)

christopher said:


> yes. horses are the best teacher of horsemanship. and i've never seen or actually heard of a horse being anywhere near successful using linda's methods. but i've seen countless reining & cutting horses and top performance horses whose trainers do direct opposition (with pressure that comes on slowly and releases quickly, of course) rather than being a passenger and doing lindas brand of reverse psychology. although the choice is up to each individual, i know which i'd rather choose, and as a trainer myself which i'd rather endorse.
> 
> i'm all for being a passenger, and as CA suggests, spending time purely developing an accelerator and brake while leaving the steering for another day, but i simply can't see the sense in linda's new method of being a passenger, it follows no time tested or proven equine psychologies (whereas pats psychologies follow vacqero principles, which are time tested & proven). and i've never heard of it's use before she suggested it.


Linda isn't a horse trainer. I think we all agree that she's basically just a marketing person who dabbles in horse riding and handling and she doesn't have good feel or timing. And yes she doesn't know how to explain things-concepts well so she gets people confused. I don't watch or listen to hear talk anymore because of her poor horse skills.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

HAY, TLO! Have ya bin watchin' the RTTH? If so, pray tell us whazzup? If no one minds (not strictly on topic, but PP's competing)?
T'ankies!


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Ya I've been watching and even my hubby came to watch. OK we're both hoping "my hero" wins  However, Chris has got some good moves too. But what's happened thus far is that Pat is way ahead with his horse in that he focused on building rapport and then respect. He got up onto the horse within 40 minutes and he had him moving thru obstacles and things were looking good. Then he put the saddle on - still good - then he got back on and asked him to move a bit - lateral flexion if you please - perhaps the hind end too - and then after a few step boom he started bucking and reared up and poor Pat fell off. He fell OK thou and said he was OK but I fell off a warmblood 6 years ago just like that and I tell you I was sore for at least a week. But anyway he took the saddle off and then got back up just to sit a bit. Then he was done.

Chris got his horse to accept him on without a saddle and then with a saddle and then he rode him around a bit. He did very well. He reminds me of a colt starter I met about a year ago Daryl Gibbs very good, studied with Tom Dorrance before he died. He talks a lot about the horse's spirit - very cool. I always think that words - especially written words just can't describe things very well. So much of what we do is feel and knowing is feeling. 

Then there was Clinton who didn't get very far with his horse today. No saddle but he did manage to lay on him. The horse did seem to accept him more at the end. I don't think he got as much rapport as either Pat or Chris got. He seems kind of over confident and was pushing the edge by desentizing his horse from outside the pen when he was supposed to be taking a break. Clinton constantly clucks and breathes really heavy like please guy stop with all the clucking and heavy breathing for goodness sakes you're the youngest guy here ;-)

So I guess we'll see what happens tomorrow - I can hardly wait


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

TheLovedOne said:


> Ya I've been watching and even my hubby came to watch. OK we're both hoping "my hero" wins  LOL!
> and then after a few steps boom he started bucking and reared up and poor Pat fell off. OMG! How long has it been since Pat's fallen off? He fell OK thou and said he was OK Thank G-d!
> 
> Clinton constantly clucks and breathes really heavy like please guy stop with all the clucking and heavy breathing for goodness sakes you're the youngest guy here ;-) Ewww!
> ...


Thank you so much, TLO, for sharing! Blessings upon you, & forget your club dues this month, if you update us tomorrow!


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

TheLovedOne said:


> Linda has her own program - this is the first I've heard of that. I think maybe you don't know too much about dressage Chris or finesse. Maybe that's what's confusing you but don't let your ego get in the way of learning


this has nothing to do with dressage.

good/bad horsemanship is good/bad horsemanship, regardless of the chosen discipline.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

Just heard he hit the dirt at RTTH...How's that magical bond working out?


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

christopher said:


> this has nothing to do with dressage.
> 
> good/bad horsemanship is good/bad horsemanship, regardless of the chosen discipline.


Last I checked if you don't know too much about something then it is really difficult to know whether or not it is good or bad. From all of your writing I cannot say that I clearly see a conflicting message from LP and PP. Furthermore I've never heard that some 17 year old name Chris is a expert on these topics


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

lacyloo said:


> Just heard he hit the dirt at RTTH...How's that magical bond working out?


That's kinda mean. It's not good if anyone falls off or hurts themselves.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

lacyloo said:


> Just heard he hit the dirt at RTTH...How's that magical bond working out?


WOO-HOO! FABULOUS example of good sportsmanship you are, lacyloo!:shock:


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

Pat is _unique_ to say the least


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> Linda has her own program - this is the first I've heard of that. I think maybe you don't know too much about dressage Chris or finesse. Maybe that's what's confusing you but don't let your ego get in the way of learning



Why is it that you seem to think that Dressage horses are the only type of horses who have finesse? Every ride a reining horse or a reined cow horse or even a cutter or a good barrel horse. They all have finesse. That is what makes them good.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

I have got to admit that I am pretty confused about the conversation about keeping a horse in a straight line and which way to turn them.
Maybe I need to try and read it one more time.

What are we trying to do here?

Just keep it simple and maybe I can catch on.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

TheLovedOne said:


> Last I checked if you don't know too much about something then it is really difficult to know whether or not it is good or bad. From all of your writing I cannot say that I clearly see a conflicting message from LP and PP. Furthermore I've never heard that some 17 year old name Chris is a expert on these topics


how does anything i've said not make sense?

age is not an accurate gauge of ones horsemanship knowledge.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

Marecare said:


> I have got to admit that I am pretty confused about the conversation about keeping a horse in a straight line and which way to turn them.


i'm suggesting one of linda's teachings directly conflicts one of pat's teachings.

lindas method to achieve straightness: let the horse go straight, if it turns left by it's own accord, you use the left rein to turn it even more left. 
this teaches the horse that when it wants to turn left, your going to turn it left, so it turns even harder to the left.

pats method to achieve straightness: let the horse go straight, if it turns left by it's own accord, you use the right rein to turn it right.

this teaches 2 things, to be just as ready to turn left as it is to turn right, which balance eachother resulting in straightness, and if for some reason if it were to keep turning left, doing this will have established a pattern of left = right. the horse will then correct itsself (a brilliant thing to watch), because you've "programmed" (as parelli says, horses are just like computers) it that whenever it makes an error the pattern is: compensate.

how are they NOT exact opposites?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

referrring back to the poster who began the example of the "make them turn left so much tthey'll want to go straight" method of negative training. or was that reverse psychology , she said?
Anyway, one time you could use that is say, leaving the barn and horse tries to turn around and go back to the barn, as mine might, I will let him turn toward barn, keep him going int the same direction around and arond until he wants to stop. Then I try again asking him to go down the driveway and see if he wants tto do that again. 
I have tried this and tried pulling him back out of the turn. Both work about the same. He does his thing a bit, then gives up and goes down the driveway.

Sorry, just had to add that.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

tinyliny, don't apologize for posting your experiences with horses: they're valuable!


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

i agree with northern.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

christopher said:


> i'm suggesting one of linda's teachings directly conflicts one of pat's teachings.
> 
> lindas method to achieve straightness: let the horse go straight, if it turns left by it's own accord, you use the left rein to turn it even more left.
> this teaches the horse that when it wants to turn left, your going to turn it left, so it turns even harder to the left.
> ...



I guess where I am hung up is why would a person start doing circles in *either* direction to teach the poor horse how to go straight?

The horse knows how to go straight anyway and is just having a hard time balancing some bowling ball in a gunny sack on his back.

If the goal is to keep the horse on a straight line(which is a fine goal) then how about just keeping the right thing easy and comfortable for the horse.

I happen to think "Lining out" a horse is a real fine goal and really shows the conditioning of the horse and a real good thing to practice at the different gaits.

A young horse anyway can have a tough time balancing the new weight of a rider in a straight line and be very out of balance in a small circle at first.

Don't give up on me.
I think I can get the idea here if you work with me some more.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

well basically, if your riding in a straight line, and the horse deviates, to correct it you'll have to turn right, to compensate for the horses left movement, correct?

my and pats method are similar, but instead of just turning right enough to correct the problem, i over-compensate for it by turning even more right, just to be sure the horse gets the maximum knowledge out of it of "how to go right" (the problem at hand is the horse knows too well "how to go left", not because it doesn't know how to go straight)

straightness isn't achieved by literally going in a straight line. the process of achieving straightness involves lots of bending, because true straightness is literally where right = left. the horse then finds it's own place in the middle of right and left, which is perfectly straight.

i know this because i see lots of top horse trainers doing it, and also because i used to play ice hockey a lot. as an ice hockey player, it was drilled into me that in order to become more efficient & less crooked skaters in a straight line (which involved using each side of our body equally, for maximum efficiency) we had to do lots of skating in big and small circles, in the direction that was more difficult for us.

in this process of training for sprints, none of the team ever went for a sprint on the ice. we thought the coach was stupid. but come game time, we were far more efficient, faster and straighter than we were before this training, simply because we could use both sides of our body equally.

same applies for horses, but they need mental training also.

so basically, to achieve straightness, left and right HAVE to be equal (both in sensitivity and performance), because if left & right are not in a perfect balance, you will never achieve true straightness.

using this logic, we can deduce that the best way to achieve straightness is to find out which way the horse prefers to go (usually it's left, as horses just like humans have dominant sides of the body, and like humans, most are right hand dominated, so going left is easier because they can push off with the right), and work on both responsiveness and mental fitness in going the opposite direction. not because we are punishing them for going the "wrong" way, but because we know why the problem is occuring, and how to fix it.

IF however, the horse were to keep going left, turning it even harder to the left (as linda suggests) will never achieve true straightness, because the reason it turned left is because either it's not responsive enough to right rein aids, or it's muscles are naturally tight on that side and loose on the other, and finds it difficult to go the other way (in the same way a right handed person finds it difficult to write with the left hand)

in sumary, if your seeking straightness ("maintain direction", as parelli says) the way to get this is not: if the horse turns left by it's own accord, keep turning it left untill it's back on the same straight line it was before; as horses do not care for geometry and will learn nothing from it.

the way to get it: if it turns left, turn it right, beyond the original "straight line" you were riding beforehand. for the reasons given previously.

this post was way longer than i aiticipated


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

Marecare said:


> If the goal is to keep the horse on a straight line(which is a fine goal) then how about just keeping the right thing easy and comfortable for the horse.


this is a more than adequate method, and compared to linda's strange & weird method, this will work miracles.

my above post is just a seemingly complicated way of achieving a more refined result that simply isn't achievable by just correcting, as "just correcting" just corrects, doesn't prevent or refine so much.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

With regard to pp hitting the dirt last night.......I am far from a fan, and even for me it was a little scary. However, now that I know he is fine, I have to say that paybacks are he!!,karma is a *****, and perhaps PP will think twice about the slams he has direct at CA the past 2 days?


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Chris, I'm not saying that you're a bad horseman - how would I know. What I am saying is that you come across a bit of a know it all and probably it is because your passionate. I don't really find your arguments compelling - that's it.

NRHAreiner I am not saying that the only discipline that practices finesse is dressage. The only reason I mentioned it is because that is what Linda does and Chris is critiquing Linda = not you  I don't know much about reining and only know a little about jumping.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

So Marecare have you been involved in any performance sports yourself?


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I would like to know more about The Road To The Horse competition. 

Would someone please tell what happened and who won and ????

I did not go and did not buy the video feed and do not know anyone that did. I really do not believe it is a good format and think it misleads a lot of people into thinking that 'breaking' a colt is a lark. But, I would like to know what happened there yesterday.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> Chris, I'm not saying that you're a bad horseman - how would I know. What I am saying is that you come across a bit of a know it all and probably it is because your passionate. I don't really find your arguments compelling - that's it.
> 
> NRHAreiner I am not saying that the only discipline that practices finesse is dressage. The only reason I mentioned it is because that is what Linda does and Chris is critiquing Linda = not you  I don't know much about reining and only know a little about jumping.



TheLovedOne,
I think what you might be reading into Christopher's writing is a strong sense of confidence and some "male" passion..ha!
I just am not seeing all of what you are here on this one.

He sure is doing way better than I was at that age.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I just found out that it is not over until this afternoon. Would someone that sees it please let everyone know what happened and who won the competition?


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

You're probably right marecare regarding Chris. I think that I've interpreted some of his comments as harsh judgements about others and then I have spotted inconsistencies in his own stories about himself. I guess I just react to that. I certainly wouldn't hold anyone's age against them as I started working with horses when I was quite young myself  and I also see a lot of inexperienced people that are much older. So age is no accurate measure but I do not think that Chris had the life experience to judge the way that he judges and I guess I have to realize that even if he did I would probably still react to someone who spoke that way.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

christopher said:


> well basically, if your riding in a straight line, and the horse deviates, to correct it you'll have to turn right, to compensate for the horses left movement, correct?
> 
> *I would change the word "turn" to "adjust" as a correction can be done without a turn and more of a "Lateral Shift" of direction.
> *
> ...


*That is OK cuz I made it waaay longer...ha!*


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

It is not over. You can get a webcast-it ends at 4 pm today. Has not even started for the day-about to
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I started a thread Road to the Horse. I copied my comments from yesterday into it and I'll add some more comments today for your reading pleasure.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> So Marecare have you been involved in any performance sports yourself?



Sorry,
I am still rubbing the sleepy dust out of my eyes and getting caught up here.

My wife shows Reiners and I work more with the cattle and starting the young horses and teaching them to be a good ranch horse.

Most of our time is taken up working with the boarders here and lessons.

I would love to show a bit more if I had the time to get away.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

That's great, but I will have to find it later. AllI have is the phone for now......;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Cherie said:


> I would like to know more about The Road To The Horse competition.
> 
> Would someone please tell what happened and who won and ????
> 
> I did not go and did not buy the video feed and do not know anyone that did. I really do not believe it is a good format and think it misleads a lot of people into thinking that 'breaking' a colt is a lark. But, I would like to know what happened there yesterday.


Here you are.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Marecare said:


> I guess where I am hung up is why would a person start doing circles in *either* direction to teach the poor horse how to go straight?
> 
> *It is not as much about keeping then straight but keeping then honest. If a horse wants or think they should go right then you go left. It is not about doing a bunch of circles it is about changing what the horse thinks he should be doing. This way they stop guessing and start waiting on your and listening to you. It is not just turning but speed and rating and so on.*
> 
> ...


Again it is not always about going straight or balance. Most of the time it is about keeping then honest and correct.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Again it is not always about going straight or balance. Most of the time it is about keeping then honest and correct.


HECK no! Most of the time it is about *them* keeping *us* honest!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Not so much honest but out of their way. This is why I like to drop bridle at times and work that way. Helps me work on staying out of their way.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Thanks for the mild reply on this Sabbath morn, reiner!


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> Again it is not always about going straight or balance. Most of the time it is about keeping then honest and correct.



Now you have got me all confused again.
I thought the conversation was about keeping a horse going straight at a Parelli clinic and the differences between Pat and Linda and how they go about it.

We were talking about what a horse does when (under those circumstances) deviates from a straight line.

I have no problem with the idea of the words "honest and correct".

If I am trying to get a horse to line out then that is the goal.
If the horse starts to deviate from the chosen path then there is a reason and the reason is what I am interested in.

Help me understand your point.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Marecare said:


> Now you have got me all confused again.
> I thought the conversation was about keeping a horse going straight at a Parelli clinic and the differences between Pat and Linda and how they go about it.
> 
> We were talking about what a horse does when (under those circumstances) deviates from a straight line.
> ...


Ask yourself WHY does the horse deviate from the given path. Sometimes it is like you stated balance. However once they get some time on them that becomes less of an issue.

What is really happening is that they start to guess what you want. You will see this a lot with reiners. They get to know the patterns and then they think they know what comes next. Big reason why you never run the pattern. Or they just want to go where they go. 

So what comes into play is now how do you correct this. Regardless of the reason for it. If it is a simple thing that the horse has never learned to stay between the reins and riders legs then that is one fix. One thing that I see a lot is that the riders does not let the horse make a mistake. Horses are just like we are. They learn better by making mistakes. Let them make that mistake and they correct it.

Now comes in how to correct it. LP says correct it by letting them go the direction they want to go and keep doing that direction until they want to go straight. 

PP and the one I find works the best is taking the horse in the opposite direction. Keep things changing. Never do the same thing 2 times. This way the horse will not go where they want and when they want but will wait on your to tell them what comes next. 

If a horse is wanting to go left and then you let them go left they now think that what they wanted was correct when in reality it was not.

Now the next thing you need to ask are the actually trying to turn or are they dropping their shoulder. As this will be corrected in a different way also. This is where making sure the horse works well off your leg comes into play.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> Ask yourself WHY does the horse deviate from the given path. Sometimes it is like you stated balance. However once they get some time on them that becomes less of an issue.
> 
> What is really happening is that they start to guess what you want. You will see this a lot with reiners. They get to know the patterns and then they think they know what comes next. Big reason why you never run the pattern. Or they just want to go where they go.
> 
> ...


I think you are taking the conversation in a slightly different direction but I will adapt..Ha!

If we are talking about a finished Reiner I am still not going to start hauling the horse around into small circles to make a point about going straight and I don't think you are really saying that either.

Now I might be riding a horse that needs 3 pounds of leg pressure on his left side (as an example) and 4 on his right to go straight but that will even out over time and maybe he needs some Chiro work,Farrier work, or maybe it is me.

If a horse starts to evade by blowing through his shoulder I will put the horse out in a big field and say "so you want to blow through your shoulder do ya?"

Horses are pretty smart about coming up with things and they also know about making them easy.

I agree with not being repetitious and practicing patterns over and over.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

> If a horse starts to evade by blowing through his shoulder I will put the horse out in a big field and say "so you want to blow through your shoulder do ya?".


By this, do you mean that you'll help the horse "blow thru the shoulder" till he finds that it isn't so much fun, after all, & so he decides he'd rather not?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Marecare said:


> I think you are taking the conversation in a slightly different direction but I will adapt..Ha!
> 
> If we are talking about a finished Reiner I am still not going to start hauling the horse around into small circles to make a point about going straight and I don't think you are really saying that either.
> 
> ...



I am not talking about doing circles. I am talking about a change of direction and making that change the opposite of what the horse thinks is coming.

When I say I want a horse to stay between the reins and my legs. I mean I do not want to touch either side of the horse. I want a horse to stay going in the direction I set them on until told to go anouther direction or stop. If they speed up or start to change direction then I will do the opposite or will change direction.

No matter what you do your end results NEEDS to be that the horse is asking what next and not just doing it. You should not be chasing your horse but your horse should be chasing you.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Northern said:


> By this, do you mean that you'll help the horse "blow thru the shoulder" till he finds that it isn't so much fun, after all, & so he decides he'd rather not?



Yes,
In some cases where the horse has found an escape and is not listening to a leg cue and is at that level if training it will work.

It is much more work for them to travel this way.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> I am not talking about doing circles. I am talking about a change of direction and making that change the opposite of what the horse thinks is coming.
> 
> When I say I want a horse to stay between the reins and my legs. I mean I do not want to touch either side of the horse. I want a horse to stay going in the direction I set them on until told to go anouther direction or stop. If they speed up or start to change direction then I will do the opposite or will change direction.
> 
> No matter what you do your end results NEEDS to be that the horse is asking what next and not just doing it. You should not be chasing your horse but your horse should be chasing you.




Maybe we are both saying the same thing in a different way.

I don't mind a circle or two to work on rating but I am not going to get a big direct rein turn going to straighten out a straight line.
At that point they are usually running through their shoulder anyway.

I like it when they follow their nose but in some cases it is like the reins are attached to another horse.

I had a horse here last year that could full gallop with his nose on my boot.
He did get tired of it after a while though.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*YOO-hoo! christopher!*



Northern said:


> By this, do you mean that you'll help the horse "blow thru the shoulder" till he finds that it isn't so much fun, after all, & so he decides he'd rather not?





Marecare said:


> Yes,
> In some cases where the horse has found an escape and is not listening to a leg cue and is at that level if training it will work.
> 
> It is much more work for them to travel this way.


Another fine example of reverse psychology for you, christopher. See, not only LP uses it on horses.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

nrhareiner seems to understand me.
perhaps because we're both reining riders/trainers :/


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

Northern said:


> Another fine example of reverse psychology for you, christopher. See, not only LP uses it on horses.


regardless of that, it defies parelli's principle of "maintain direction" (true straightness) being priority 2, and his method of achieving that.

"maintain direction" can't be achieved by saying "left = more left". because the pattern will tell the horse that when it wants to go left, it should go more left.

maintain direction is achieved by "left = right" in equal measures. that way when the horse wants to go left, it will also go right in an equal amount, resulting in the horse staying straight.

the reason i teach the horse to go more in the opposing direction is because when the horse deviated it tells me the horse isn't even in the first place, so straightness no longer is the priority, evenness in left/right is the new priority. because evenness in left/right results in straightness.

i dont know how i can make this any simpler :s

i suppose an easy way of saying it is, if the horse were to make a 5 degree turn to the left, rider should from there take a 10 degree turn to the right. 5 degrees to get back to the straight, and another 5 degrees because straight lines aren't the issue, evenness in left/right is the issue, and the horse turning 5 to the left in the first place told us exactly how uneven the horse is, and exactly how much we have to do to solve it.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

nrhareiner are you a trainer? 'cause I thought that you hire trainers?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> nrhareiner are you a trainer? 'cause I thought that you hire trainers?


I do both. I train some of my horses. Start all of them and once I bring them home I continue working them and keep them going. It depends on the horse. I am primarily a breeder/owner any more and since I breed NRHA Open level horses I use NRHA Open level trainers/riders.

That being said I know how to train and have done so in the past. You will find that most reining breeders have a very very good idea of what it takes to train and most of us also compete so again we must know what it takes to not only train a horse but more importantly keep the horse honest. That is much much harder then actually training one.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

christopher said:


> i dont know how i can make this any simpler :s Have my explanations not been perfectly simple? The same thought arises in me![QUOTE]
> 
> christopher, you even had your definition of reverse psychology wrong at start, & no acknowledgement of my giving you the info on that.
> 
> ...


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Well nrhareiner I think the horses keep me honest. I have seen lots of reining trainers and I will leave it at that. I guess you send them away when they are too much for you or you're too busy. Do actually compete or do you hire people to do that?


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Northern said:


> *Once* more: a good horseman doesn't always do direct opposition/direct opposition & then some to cause a horse to learn to walk straight. He might use reverse psychology, he might use something else.
> 
> You could also express appreciation for my & other's time & effort spent explaining to you.


Amen. Please a good horseman is honest and true. A good horseman loves his horse and is creative which involves a lot of reverse psychology and innovative thinking.... I love it!


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

BTW Chris Cox is the winner....


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

OMG! TLO! our hero lost!


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I know I know but Chris is really good. He's my new hero


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

But I still love Pat dearly!


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Traitor!


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Oh no Northern ... I can't lose you  Pat is still my number one!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> Well nrhareiner I think the horses keep me honest. I have seen lots of reining trainers and I will leave it at that. I guess you send them away when they are too much for you or you're too busy. Do actually compete or do you hire people to do that?


Has nothing to do with them getting to be too much for me. It is a business decision. I would hope you can under stand that I breed and show horses as a business. I do it to make money. I love my horses very much but at the end of the day they MUST pay their way and they do.

I am going to guess that you have not seen any really good reining trainers. Fortunately I am in an area where reining started and there are a lot of top trainers with in a few hours of me. So I have seen shown with and against some of the best NRHA trainers in the world. I have been fortunate enough to been able to go and take lessons with them talk to them at shows and pick their brains on many things. 

Yes I do compete. I show NRHA in the Non Pro level. My horses have earning from Green Reiner all the way to the NRHA Open level and also NRCHA earnings.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> Has nothing to do with them getting to be too much for me. It is a business decision. I would hope you can under stand that I breed and show horses as a business. I do it to make money. I love my horses very much but at the end of the day they MUST pay their way and they do.


I will try but it's hard for me as they could never be that to me.



nrhareiner said:


> I am going to guess that you have not seen any really good reining trainers.


You are 100% correct. I have seen many and some of them claim to have earnings too. I have always walked away shaking my internal head. But I've seen Stacey and Craig on DVDs and TV and think they are both excellent. 
We have a couple of good people in the area but not many and no reiners i.e. good ones


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

christopher said:


> regardless of that, it defies parelli's principle of "maintain direction" (true straightness) being priority 2, and his method of achieving that.
> 
> "maintain direction" can't be achieved by saying "left = more left". because the pattern will tell the horse that when it wants to go left, it should go more left.
> 
> ...



I find that explanation a bit easier to understand but feel that 5 and 10 degree changes are much different than "Circles".

In flying and navigation there is *"course"* which is a straight line between two points and* "heading" *which is the degrees that you point the plane to travel on the course line.

Horses are similar in that sometimes you have to make a heading change to stay on course and sometimes you just change your course.

Think of a stream and you want to get to the other side but the water is flowing very fast.
If you point the bow of the boat at the point that you want to reach the current will drag you down stream.

Your analogy has you over correcting to get back on course which will do that but I am not sure the horse understands what he did wrong.

Maybe we are saying the same thing but "True straightness" is a state of all things being balanced but there will always be very small corrections to maintain it.

I don't really feel that horses see lines like we do and really just want to get along with the least fuss.

To make a point I think you could lead a horse into the arena each day and line up feed pans in a perfectly straight line and let him walk from one to the other.
Each day I could spread the pans out further and further until there were only two pans (one on each end of the arena).
The horse would walk in a perfect line from one to the other because it would be the most efficient way to get there.

Now I could throw the horse off "Course" by sitting on him and leaning to the outside in one direction or another.
If I did the same thing every day for a year the horse would get wise to me throwing him off course and would compensate for my lack of balance and that is what most people are looking for in a horse.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Depending on location it is hard to find a good trainer. I am lucky b/c of where I live there are some of the best reining trainers in the world with in a few hours of me. There are also several good all around trainers around here also.

I will also say that just b/c it is a business that when a horse has done their part I pay them back. I have a 31yo G-daughter of Poco Bueno who will live out here life here. She has produced well for me and she has earned that right. 

It is not hard to make a business out of it and still provide for the horses. The thing is that b/c it is a business and the horses make money it frees me up to care for the older ones I keep after they are done.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> I will also say that just b/c it is a business that when a horse has done their part I pay them back. I have a 31yo G-daughter of Poco Bueno who will live out here life here. She has produced well for me and she has earned that right.


I have a 30 year poco myself. I just got a three year poco bred paint last year. I love the temperament. The paint is black/white with two blue eye - she's pretty pretty.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Ah yes the paint was headed to the auction.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> I have a 30 year poco myself. I just got a three year poco bred paint last year. I love the temperament. The paint is black/white with two blue eye - she's pretty pretty.


Cool. What line to poco is yours? My is By Cherokee Poco by PB and out of a g-d of King. Great producer. One of mares is out of her. Sold the others.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> Ah yes the paint was headed to the auction.



That dose happen. Sometimes you can find a nice one. I have yet to find one at a regular auction that would fit my needs. There was one mare that was surrendered to a local HS that was a nice reining bred mare. She did not last long. There are several people who where interested in her.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

Marecare said:


> I find that explanation a bit easier to understand but feel that 5 and 10 degree changes are much different than "Circles".
> 
> In flying and navigation there is *"course"* which is a straight line between two points and* "heading" *which is the degrees that you point the plane to travel on the course line.
> 
> ...


i really think compared to linda's method you & I are saying the same thing when it comes to straightness/evenness.

we both use some form of correction when it comes to getting "true straightness", compared to linda's way, which is if the horse turns left, keep turning left untill your walking on the straight line you were before (as you said, horses don't see straight lines like we do, so this won't work at achieving balance). which might work to get the horse to walk in a straight line in the current situation, but isn't so good at teaching the horse that it's his responsibility to have "true straightness" (left = right) and to maintain direction.

"Your analogy has you over correcting to get back on course which will do that but I am not sure the horse understands what he did wrong" the horse isn't suppose to understand what he did wrong as this isn't a form of punishment, the reason i over correct is to compensate for the horses original decision to deviate.

"I find that explanation a bit easier to understand but feel that 5 and 10 degree changes are much different than "Circles"." pat says (in his new level 1 or 2 dvd) that in geometry there are only straight lines and circles. seeing as this is a parelli thread i thought i'd use quotations from his DVDs.



> Think of a stream and you want to get to the other side but the water is flowing very fast.
> If you point the bow of the boat at the point that you want to reach the current will drag you down stream


exactly, so in order to go straight across the stream, you'd have to compensate for the boats desire to go downstream, by turning upstream. using lindas method in this example, you'd point the bow of your boat downstream, then keep turning that way untill you were facing your destination again. usually then the boat (or horse) will continue turning on it's on because the current of the stream (or the horses "unevenness") kept pushing, regardless of how many times you went through that process.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Great thread! Nice to hear so many others who putting it nicely dislike Parelli!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Seems like all that savy didn't work in this case. Also wasn't that big a buck to get him off either.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Spyder-he did say he had started to take his foot out, realizing he was about to blow.....so perhaps between that and the spinning he was just enough off balance. 

Either way-too much too soon for this colt for sure. Guess the hugs and kisses approach doesn't always work so well. ;-)


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

franknbeans said:


> Spyder-he did say he had started to take his foot out, realizing he was about to blow.....so perhaps between that and the spinning he was just enough off balance.
> 
> Either way-too much too soon for this colt for sure. Guess the hugs and kisses approach doesn't always work so well. ;-)


FrankI heard that as well and after watching the video I laughed about it he was still hanging on when his *** left the seat!!!


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Peggysue said:


> FrankI heard that as well and after watching the video I laughed about it he was still hanging on when his *** left the seat!!!


And, instinctively pulling on the colts head too, just like most of us would....:wink:

I did like that I saw a picture on CC's FB page of the 2 of them having dinner last night. Very nice. Really too bad that apparently CA is a bit of a sore loser.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

wouldn't it have been neat to see all three of them having dinner together


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Sure would.....


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