# New Gray Inhibiting Mutation



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

I read that yesterday! Pretty neat!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Hmm, how interesting!


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

Yes, very interesting.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

So how old does a horse have to be to be considered a slow grayer? I have a 3.5 year old that is graying so slow that some of my friends doubt that he is a gray. :lol: But he's not from one of those exotic breeds, so he is most likely a normal gray. Just sort of slow about it. He's a QH/Fox Trotter cross. 

So is this an actual mutation of some type? I mean, how do you know you have one of these mutated grays instead of just an average gray? I have always heard that horses can gray at all different speeds. When my foal was born and I was researching grays, I remember there was a website that showed another breed, maybe Saddlebred, and the horse was quite aged and had hardly grayed at all. So I just thought different rates of graying was normal. :think:


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

3.5 is still quite young to be all that lightened up. The stallion pictured is 10 and barely changed as a gray for that age. The other stallion linked is 18 , which is long past when he would have normally grayed out.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

Cool! I am personally not a fan of gray horses at all, but I think the graying process is beautiful. I like the transition from colored to gray, so I could like with a prolonged graying period!


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## Tracer (Sep 16, 2012)

I'm curious.

I've recently become a fan of an Australian racehorse, Fawkner. He's an interesting looking horse for sure - depending on what racing site you visit, he is classified as either bay/brown or gray. To me, it looks like the back half is brown, front half is gray. He's 6 years old, so I would think that he would be much greyer than he is. Here are a few pictures-


























Is it possible that he has a case of this mutation?

If it helps, his sire is bay and dam is grey. His dam, now 13, is Dane Belltar, and here are a couple of photos of her. The first, when she was racing (last raced in 05).









And last year.









Sorry for kind of hijacking this thread!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Here is the article I was speaking of: 

The Ever Changing World of Grey

See Winsdown Hi Octane? At age two he scarcely looked gray. But then he progressed quite a bit by age 7. 

And here is my gelding at age 3 1/2. In photos the only thing that gives him away is his face and tail. 

I guess what I'm saying is, while I know my gelding and these other horses do not have the mutation, I thought it was normal for grays to gray out at all different rates anyway. 

What I think is more interesting, is not that these other horses are graying out so slow, but rather they almost take on an a-typical pattern to their graying out, with almost a rabicano effect. That's what makes them sorta cool.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> Here is the article I was speaking of:
> 
> The Ever Changing World of Grey
> 
> ...


I would consider all the horses on that site as falling with-in 'normal' range of greying out.
I had a gelding that looked exactly like yours at 4yrs old. By 8yrs he was mostly 'white' with dapple quarters, black stockings, black mane & tail- by 16yrs he was milk white all over- which is pretty average for going 'white' (the process usually happens between the ages of 8 & 16).
My current mare is greying out, she is a Brown Roan & went grey really fast (pretty much 'white' with white & iron grey legs, & grey forelock by 6yrs old, but I think was mostly to do with the fact she is also roan, other wise she'd still look like a typical 'dapple grey'), however by 6&1/2 she started getting fleabitten & is now getting more & more fleabitten each season- she's only 8yrs & far more fleabitten than both of my friends 14yr old greys & is also developing a decent sized blood marking as she goes.

The unusual greys, look much like your boy, but at twice his age- most look like the average 4-5yr old grey in their mid to late teens (for example) & never seem grey much more than that- even into their 20's.... will see if I can hunt down the pic of a 20 something pony- who simply has a partially greying out head, neck & flanks .... that's the extent of his greying out process & he is 20+ yrs old, so not your standard 'grey' by any means


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

This is Comico IV at the age of 15. He is one of the greys that is in question.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I would be curious to see what would happen if this turned out to be a legitimate genetic cause rather than just a few random anomalies. I could see this easily getting bred left and right just so people could get their oh-so-beautiful steel gray horses that actually stay that color rather than going all the way to white.

I wonder if any of Comico IV's foals turned out the same way? *off to google*


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I wonder if that's what happened with one of our mares!!
She's a Criollo, we always called her a strawberry roan sabino. But on closer inspection we noticed that under her white she had pink skin (obviously like a sabino) but then in some spots, under her white had gray/black skin, but the hair had grayed out - but not everywhere. On her muzzle she has a few spots of black skin with gray hair, not colored. And on her butt cheeks and inside of her legs you can see where she had dark skin but gray hair. While the rest of her dark skin remained colored hair.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

Another 10 yr old Spanish stallion with Grey Inhibitor (he's called Esclavo XXVIII)








Body shot








few yrs earlier pic









The old (Connie) Pony I saw online (who turns out is actually more like 30 something lol)









Not sure on the breeding of this gelding- but he's 12yrs old & also being tested for grey








& here he is at 9yrs old









Here's the link with more pics of 2 of the horses (both of whom are being tested) Rabicano | Color Genetics


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

PunksTank said:


> I wonder if that's what happened with one of our mares!!
> She's a Criollo, we always called her a strawberry roan sabino. But on closer inspection we noticed that under her white she had pink skin (obviously like a sabino) but then in some spots, under her white had gray/black skin, but the hair had grayed out - but not everywhere. On her muzzle she has a few spots of black skin with gray hair, not colored. And on her butt cheeks and inside of her legs you can see where she had dark skin but gray hair. While the rest of her dark skin remained colored hair.


She looks a typical Sabino to me- they often have roaned out areas which dont have pink skin underneath (in fact the roan can be so heavy/dense in places, it can mimic Sabino spotting & look like a solid white spot/patch, but has grey skin underneath, so is simply heavy roaning), as it is just the hair colour effected with 'Roaning', not the skin pigment- the pink patches are unpigmented skin & therefore actually 'white spotting' caused by Sabino (in your case).


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Surayya said:


> She looks a typical Sabino to me- they often have roaned out areas which dont have pink skin underneath (in fact the roan can be so heavy/dense in places, it can mimic Sabino spotting & look like a solid white spot/patch, but has grey skin underneath, so is simply heavy roaning), as it is just the hair colour effected with 'Roaning', not the skin pigment- the pink patches are unpigmented skin & therefore actually 'white spotting' caused by Sabino (in your case).


Then that must be it then!  
I just thought it just made sense, being a Spanish breed and having the funny half gray thing, but that makes sense too.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

PunksTank said:


> Then that must be it then!
> I just thought it just made sense, being a Spanish breed and having the funny half gray thing, but that makes sense too.


The clearest way to know 100% that she isnt grey is to test her for grey- then know with 100% certainty that she is Sabino or a greying Sabino  But my bet going off of what I can see of her is Chestnut Sabino.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Surayya said:


> The clearest way to know 100% that she isnt grey is to test her for grey- then know with 100% certainty that she is Sabino or a greying Sabino  But my bet going off of what I can see of her is Chestnut Sabino.


Probably, she'll never be bred so it doesn't matter so much - just curiosity, her color is ever changing so it's fun to watch


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

Chiilaa said:


> This is Comico IV at the age of 15. He is one of the greys that is in question.


I've always said that I wouldn't own a gray by choice, though I wouldn't pass up an ideal horse just because he was a gray. But... I would love to have a horse that just stayed this color...


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

PunksTank said:


> Probably, she'll never be bred so it doesn't matter so much - just curiosity, her color is ever changing so it's fun to watch


There is zero need to test that horse for gray. She is DW or sabino. It's common for them to have black skin underneath where white ticking took over. That's why pepper my sorrel DW has mottled black skin underneath it has or had regular pigmented hairs there. 

Pepper wet 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> There is zero need to test that horse for gray. She is DW or sabino. It's common for them to have black skin underneath where white ticking took over. That's why pepper my sorrel DW has mottled black skin underneath it has or had regular pigmented hairs there.


If someone believes there horse is something it's not (or vice versa), then there is a 'reason/need' to test, which is why I said the only way for the poster to know with 100% certainty is to test  
I always got told my girl was dun, buckskin or bay as a foal to a rising 2yr old & I always had to say no she isnt, she's brown. 
Then I kept getting told she was Bay from 2-3yrs old, again I had to keep telling everyone she's not bay, she's brown- by 4 I gave up arguing with colour 'experts' (aka know it all's) & when the test became available I had her tested for At & guess what, she's Ata, so Brown- now when people say she's bay (she goes through very red stages), I can say 'nope she was genetically test as being Brown' & then there is no arguments, because a bunch of scientists in a lab over seas, have proven she is Not 'bay' lol


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Poseidon said:


> I would be curious to see what would happen if this turned out to be a legitimate genetic cause rather than just a few random anomalies. I could see this easily getting bred left and right just so people could get their oh-so-beautiful steel gray horses that actually stay that color rather than going all the way to white.
> 
> I wonder if any of Comico IV's foals turned out the same way? *off to google*


Comico IV has a brother, named Comico VI. Because original names are awesome lol. Anyway. This is Comico VI:










Comico VI has a daughter called Despina. This is her at 2yo:










She has been tested, and is Ee AtA Gg. Her dam is chestnut, and Despina herself looked very chestnut as a foal:










Despina's dam:


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

wow, this is very interesting...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Surayya said:


> If someone believes there horse is something it's not (or vice versa), then there is a 'reason/need' to test, which is why I said the only way for the poster to know with 100% certainty is to test
> I always got told my girl was dun, buckskin or bay as a foal to a rising 2yr old & I always had to say no she isnt, she's brown.
> Then I kept getting told she was Bay from 2-3yrs old, again I had to keep telling everyone she's not bay, she's brown- by 4 I gave up arguing with colour 'experts' (aka know it all's) & when the test became available I had her tested for At & guess what, she's Ata, so Brown- now when people say she's bay (she goes through very red stages), I can say 'nope she was genetically test as being Brown' & then there is no arguments, because a bunch of scientists in a lab over seas, have proven she is Not 'bay' lol



Oh no, I definitely believe you - I knew she was clearly sabino, but I didn't think that the white hairs grew on the dark skin - but now that you've explained it it makes perfect sense. I do believe you're right - no need to test 
Thanks for explaining it to me!


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

PunksTank said:


> Oh no, I definitely believe you - I knew she was clearly sabino, but I didn't think that the white hairs grew on the dark skin - but now that you've explained it it makes perfect sense. I do believe you're right - no need to test
> Thanks for explaining it to me!


Sorry PunksTank, I didnt mean that post to come off like you didnt believe me!!!  
It was more to highlight that IF an owner thinks/feels/believes their horse is (or is not) a certain colour or pattern, yet said horse doesnt appear to be what they think/feel/believe it to be, then there is a definite "need" to test- despite whatever the horse "clearly looks like", because that's the only sure fire way the owner will have 100% certainty that their horse is, or is not, what they think/feel/believe it is- random strangers over the internet telling you what your horse is, based solely on photos, isnt exactly full proof or a science- it's just our educated (..or not, in the case of some sites  ) opinions.

I learned that the hard way- my filly tested neg to every white spotting pattern except for Tobiano- despite being told she was definitely frame/sabino etc.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Very, very interesting, Chiilaa. I also shouldn't even be surprised that you delivered pictures rather quickly. :lol:


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Surayya said:


> Sorry PunksTank, I didnt mean that post to come off like you didnt believe me!!!
> It was more to highlight that IF an owner thinks/feels/believes their horse is (or is not) a certain colour or pattern, yet said horse doesnt appear to be what they think/feel/believe it to be, then there is a definite "need" to test- despite whatever the horse "clearly looks like", because that's the only sure fire way the owner will have 100% certainty that their horse is, or is not, what they think/feel/believe it is- random strangers over the internet telling you what your horse is, based solely on photos, isnt exactly full proof or a science- it's just our educated (..or not, in the case of some sites  ) opinions.
> 
> I learned that the hard way- my filly tested neg to every white spotting pattern except for Tobiano- despite being told she was definitely frame/sabino etc.


There are multiple white pattern genes that are not testable yet, there are over a dozen DW genes and its extremely likely there more unmapped splash and sabino genes out there. Just because your horse does not test for something does not mean the horse does not have that white pattern. And graying even in these minimal grays is still obvious that they are graying. And I can say Punks horse is not gray by looking at her phenotype, her age, and because I'm very familiar with this white pattern. And I can say confidently that she doesn't need to test because of that and the fact the I have watched first hand the progressive ticking and changing in my own DW and in other DW's and sabino's. Gray works differently then these white patterns. Just because you think you got bad advice doesn't mean all of us are giving bad advice. That being said it doesn't hurt anything but your pocket book to test for whatever you want.

On to the main subject that's a really interesting post Chiilaa. and I agree with posiedon! I love how you always have pictures at the ready Chiilaa. :lol:


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

It is interesting the breeds mentioned where it is common. Geneticly the connemara pony has a lot of spanish blood (from the late 1500's) so PRE's are in there. It wouldnt suprise me if the 2 ponies mentioned above have connie blood and hence some PRE blood somewhere down the line.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I believe one of the ponies is a Connie Faye ;-)


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Poseidon said:


> Very, very interesting, Chiilaa. I also shouldn't even be surprised that you delivered pictures rather quickly. :lol:


You know me... I can Google like no one else


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> There are multiple white pattern genes that are not testable yet, there are over a dozen DW genes and its extremely likely there more unmapped splash and sabino genes out there. Just because your horse does not test for something does not mean the horse does not have that white pattern. And graying even in these minimal grays is still obvious that they are graying. And I can say Punks horse is not gray by looking at her phenotype, her age, and because I'm very familiar with this white pattern. And I can say confidently that she doesn't need to test because of that and the fact the I have watched first hand the progressive ticking and changing in my own DW and in other DW's and sabino's. Gray works differently then these white patterns. Just because you think you got bad advice doesn't mean all of us are giving bad advice. That being said it doesn't hurt anything but your pocket book to test for whatever you want.


Yes I agree with your 1st point, However, many gene mutations also have over lapping traits, so the absolute reverse of your point is also true (which is why I didnt bring it up with my filly)- as while some 'forms' of already testable patterns, may not be currently testable, it doesn't necessarily follow that all horses that Do test neg for them now (yet are phenotypically similar), will indeed test positive for the other forms (if found). They could easily have a totally different mutation, located in a similar place & therefore not actually be the original pattern they are 'thought' to be- ie The impossible double cream dilutes &/or champagnes, which turned out to be pearl or pearl/cream pseudo double dilutes. I also saw recently that some "obviously" frame horses, have tested neg for frame, so it's possible they are actually an unknown, different but phenotypically very similar, white spotting pattern. 

I didnt actually say I was given "bad" advice by 'everyone online' with regards to my filly. I implied I was told with 'absolute certainty' by 'online experts' one thing, while actual genetic experts, said otherwise- I didn't say I was given "bad" advice at all, let alone by who or where. Merely that the online 'absolute facts' given- based off of pictures & no more, where incorrect in her case (hence learning the hard way not to assume peoples 'XYZ' opinions on your horse are fact, unless you have actually tested for 'XYZ' or it is out of tested 'XYZ' parents- which honestly, is just common sense IMO, esp when it comes to registrations lol). I would have still given the same advice (testing is the only way to know with 100% certainty if a horse is or isnt -insert testable whatever here-), had the 'online experts' been bang on for my filly! After all there are people who still call their Pearl horses, Champagne; Brown horses, bay; grey horses, roan; Buckskin horses, dun etc. Because that's what they were 'told', so no need to test :-| . 
My point simply was, no one can with absolute, 100% certainty say that a horse definitely is or is not any one pattern from a pic- they can "think" a horse is 100% "likely" to be a certain pattern (or even colour), but they cant 'know' with absolute certainty, as there are always surprises in genetics 

Having owned a few "typical" sabinos, as well as 'typical' greys & having a friend who had a DW TB, I am well-aware of what these can look like as well.
The point I made was, telling someone based on a pic alone, they have "no need to test" for whatever they think/wonder their horse could have- whether we personally feel testing is necessary or not is irrelevant if we dont own the horse- But that's just my opinion. 
I actually didnt tell her to go get her horse tested because it looked to be grey either. All I said, if you read the post, is "the only way to know with 100% certainty (if her horse is grey, as that is what she thought it could be), is to test for it", but going off of the pics she provided, I personally only saw sabino (which is what she said her horse has) & not grey. So we are in fact, in total agreement about the horse in question- we just expressed our opinions in polar opposite ways 

I hope that makes what I was saying clear- I wasn't pointing fingers or implying anyone 'didnt know what they were talking about' etc- if thats the way you took it, sorry- it wasnt meant to be. I simply was speaking in broad general terms


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

I personally am really looking forward to seeing how Despina grey's out- it could be the 1st time we actually have clear/ detailed, photo graphic evidence of it happening- will be very interesting to see how & when it starts on her & how it progresses.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I know very little about color genetics, and so I love these threads! Very interesting and informative!

Those graying patterns are wild xD I love it!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Huh, those pictures of the Comicos are awesome and that's my kind of gray horse. Dobe was a beautiful dark steel gray when I got him, now he's all white except for the yellow fleabites. Blech, I never have liked a white horse.

Also, as an owner of a gray horse with melanomas, I wonder if this gene effects the odds of the horse getting them or not :think:.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

smrobs said:


> Also, as an owner of a gray horse with melanomas, I wonder if this gene effects the odds of the horse getting them or not :think:.


You know, I was just pounding that as I was going to sleep last night myself!

I also wonder if this is the 'original' grey (if it turns out the mutation doesnt have the same propensity for allowing melanomas to develop) & 'typical' (for lack of a better term) grey is the modern version (since it seems 'white' horses where favored by royalty & as status symbols).

I also find it interesting that it appears homozygous 'typical' greys dont express increased inhabited pattern, but instead loose all inhibited expression- which narrows down some of the way the mutation may work- at least on 'typical' grey's.... I wonder if a heterozygous 'typical' grey, could be homozygous Inhibited grey, or if the grey inhibitor acts like Pearl does with Cream- 
ie. Inhibitor without 'typical' grey present = no/little change in coat colour
Inhibitor with hetrozygous 'typical' grey present = restricted/ inhibited greying process
Homozygous Inhibitor = eventual (if not sometimes delayed) 'typical' complete greying process.
Or if it is an entirely different mutation that only expresses when grey is present- like Flea bites.
I know I'd be keen on breeding to an inhibited grey IF the gene didnt have the whole propensity for melanomas thing, or even better negated that particular function of 'typical' grey (but that's just more likely to be wishful thinking on my part lol  ).


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

thats a neat fact about the grey . it would be neat to have a dappled grey that would stay a dappled and or dark grey.  The article did not state anything about the occurrence of Melanoma (grey horse tumors) . I wonder if it would be reduced with this 'new' gene.


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## zananv (Dec 8, 2013)

*Difference from 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 year old Grey Quarter Horse*

Hello,

Just adding some pictures of my Grey going through his color changes. The first picture was December 2012, Second picture May 2013. Third picture August 2013, and Final picture December 2013. I've seen alot of changes in the last year and he is 6 1/2 now (7 in April) It'll be interesting to see his color after he loses his Winter coat.

He's definately "slow" transitioning. There is another grey quarter horse at the barn that is almost fully greyed out and is 7.


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