# Gelding gets sore footed after eating grain,



## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

Perhaps you work him too much? 3-4 hours a day, 5-6 days a week is a lot of work. 
That's 15-24hours of work every week.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Roman said:


> Perhaps you work him too much? 3-4 hours a day, 5-6 days a week is a lot of work.
> That's 15-24hours of work every week.


I used to do that much trail riding in the summer......but I had at least two horses to alternate with. 

So I don't know if that's the cause of the sore-footedness, but that's a good chunk of riding, especially at speed. He might just be sorefooted because that is a lot of pounding out on the trails if there are rocks and such.

PS. Maybe try cutting back on the Calf Manna? I can't imagine 2 pounds of oats causing that much of a problem. They are generally pretty safe to feed because they have hulls.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Trails are sand and grass soft ground,he's shod with pads on the front. He was conditioned to ride the hours he rides,so it not like he was unfit and asked to work hard. The trail has only a few places that have rocks,we avoid the rock on that part.

He's fed calf-manna because he will drop weight if not fed a total of 8 pounds a day. 4lbs in morning and 4lbs at night.

He has crappy hoofs that chip all to heck if not shod.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Sounds like his feet are sore from being ridden, it happens with barefoot horses. Try some hoofboots maybe?


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Well, it sounds like rocks are not the problem then. 

I don't know what else to say, hopefully someone else will chime in.

It almost sounds like a metabolic thing.....if the sore footedness is the result of the grain. And yet you've pretty much ruled that out. So short of metabolic or rocks I have no idea.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Maybe your farrier is trimming his soles? 

I know back when I learned to shoe, about 20 years ago, we actually rasped into the sole before putting on a shoe. I now know that is wrong, but I bet a lot of farriers still take a rasp to the sole. Or take a hoof knife to clean the "loose" sole. 

Those are the only other things I can think of. 

Now that I keep my horses barefoot, I have learned to never clean out the sole unless it is literally crumbling out on it's own. I know your guy is shod. Just stating how important the sole is though.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Why is he shod with pads.
Sorry, but to me a horse shod with pads, that gets sore after being fed what I think is a heck of a lot of NSC, sounds like you need to rule out laminitis
A horse does not have to be IR, in order to be pushed over the edge, and in fact, once one has to deal with an IR horse, believe me, you feed the rest of your horses to prevent them from becoming IR!
A horse that has to be shod with pads, is not really a truly sound horse to begin with
I would suggest that you really check his diet and consider having someone who is good at mapping a hoof, able to detect hoof pathology, look at your horse.
Shoing can cover up a lot of soundness issues, until those issues come large enough that they no longer can be masked
For instance, a horse with distal decent, thus thin soles, can be made to move sound,, by those shoes keeping that compromised sole off of the ground, esp if pads also are used
Trail only has a few rocks, yet he needs pads?????


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

When he gets sore after that sugar rush, have you taken his digital pulse?
There are better ways to add calories to a working horse, then dumping grain at him, which can cause a bout of laminitis, with risk associated directly to amount fed
I would feed him a higher quality hay, like an alfalfa mix and add cool calories and beet pulp


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Ok, just saw you posted above me. Something is going with his hooves, and yes, why are the pads being used?


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Why is he shod with pads.
> Sorry, but to me a horse shod with pads, that gets sore after being fed what I think is a heck of a lot of NSC, sounds like you need to rule out laminitis
> A horse does not have to be IR, in order to be pushed over the edge, and in fact, once one has to deal with an IR horse, believe me, you feed the rest of your horses to prevent them from becoming IR!
> A horse that has to be shod with pads, is not really a truly sound horse to begin with
> ...




He's thinned soled and gets sole bruises if not shod with pads. No soundness issue till now,was sound when shoes were put on in march. He was sound all winter barefoot. 

So no shoes aren't masking lameness he wasn't lame when he was shod,even last time he was sound,when done 3 weeks ago. 

Diet was low sugar/starch over winter months but that doesn't keep weight on him during riding season,so switch to oats and calf-manna. 

The farrier i have is the best one around here i can find.:wink:


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Smilie said:


> When he gets sore after that sugar rush, have you taken his digital pulse?
> There are better ways to add calories to a working horse, then dumping grain at him, which can cause a bout of laminitis, with risk associated directly to amount fed
> I would feed him a higher quality hay, like an alfalfa mix and add cool calories and beet pulp


No haven't taken his pulse when he's sore. He wont eat beet pulp and doesn't do powdered supplements. Have a heck of time getting him to eat the remmision.

I'll check his pulse in morning,when i feed.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

checked for a pulse its normal no heat either still sore. Gave him bute and he 100% now. Gotta go horses are loaded head off to test both horses for mounted patrol its a volunteer group.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Here's a pictures of both front's sole shot, Has shoes and pads.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Can you post a side view, as solar shots are kind useless with pads and shoes.
Did you take that digital, pulse at the time he was sore-ie, time past his dump of NSC, so he can have a transient slight laminitic incident, at the time that blood sugar gets an insulin repsonse that affects the hooves, for that short period?
Slight laminitis, can leave no trace, as the stress caused at that time of high Gi (glycemic Index), is not enough to cause the lamini to fail, so once that sugar rush is gone, which causes the high insulin response, which affects the hooves, dissipates, the horse will be 'normal'
So, just to be clear, you checked his digital pulse when he was sore?
Far as beet pulp, it is a required taste
Feeding Remission to a horse that is not IR, makes no sense. Any horse can be pushed over the level where he can transport a given amount of blood glucose into the cells, and why founder can occur in a horse that is not IR and gets into that feed bin
Far as thin soles, it has been proven enough times that horses don't have thin soles because of some poor genetics. They are man made, either through slow distal decent or thinning the soles while trimming
Slow distal descent has the entire foot sink lower in the hoof capsule, with that hoof capsule becoming longer, while the sole becomes flatter and thinner

Whether or not, slight low grade laminitis and distal descent is going on with your horse, it is still worth reading the info on distal descent and how it relates to sole thickness

Distal Descent

And, the articled on sole thickness

Horses Sole


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

I checked pulse while he was sore tonight its was up quite a bit. Can get side views tomorrow dark out now. He has flat soles has now for over a year. 

Iv tried to get him to eat Beet pulp many times doesn't like wet feed. Very good reading on the links you gave.I give the remmision for the magnesium it has, he wont eat other magnesium supplements. Well he's not eating remission very good either.:wink: Also thought it would help calm him down but hasn't.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

IF it is the feed, first thing to ask, that I haven't seen questioned is 'sore 10-12 hrs after feed' Does this mean he only gets fed daily, or twice a day? Could be starch overload on a weak gut. But I think you know about little & often feeding, so think I'm missing something there. 

So even this relatively small amount can indeed cause a laminitic 'episode' & I'd avoid high starch ingredients, particularly if you can't feed little & often. There are many good 'low carb' alternatives, such as copra for eg. I'd also look at nutrition, as if he's in a lot of work, his magnesium & salt requirements will be higher, among other nutrients that can affect the feet. Remission is not just for IR horses, and it's high in Mg. FeedXL.com is a good resource to help balance nutrition, but(unless they've changed recently) only considers conventional levels of Mg/Ca and IMO it pays to do a bit more study on this. gravelproofhoof.org has a lot of info, and sources to learn more.

If he's thin soled, uncomfortable bare or without pads on normal footing, then he's unsound IMO. I think that is what Smilie means by 'masking lameness'. And while (well) shod can prevent it worsening, conventional shoeing doesn't tend to help.


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

I'm trying to work this out in my head. He gets fed grain twice daily, right? So does he get sore twice a day too? Is it always the same time of day? What does he do that lets you know he's sore? What does he do when he's not sore? What time of day is he comfortable vs not comfortable? How long after a meal does it take for him to get sore? How long until he's comfortable again? 

Was he sore over winter on the low NSC diet, or just since you switched him to keep weight on? Was he ridden much in winter? I know you said he gets skinny if you don't feed him his normal routine, and if he's a picky eater on top of it, that's even tougher.

What happens if you skip his grain for a week? Is he more comfortable foot-wise or the same? What happens if you give him a dose of bute? Is he more comfortable or no difference? (I am NOT suggesting long term bute! Just interested in how it affects him to try and figure out what might/might not work or be going on.)


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

If he's such a fussy eater, doesn't like supps, could be sign of ulcers. A damaged gut can also allow toxins to leak out, a known cause of laminitis, which would make him more 'sensitive' to rich meals...


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Well if my horse got sore after giving him grain, he wouldn't get any grain. He would get top quality hay & pasture, 24/7. 

Maybe that's too simple?


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

How old is this guy? Have you had him vetted for lameness? Does he have any arthritis issues? Could be that his soreness is coincidentally 12 hours after a feed and it's actually muscle or joint pain (bone, tendon, ligament) from standing quietly after a hard day's work rather than from the hooves themselves. Sandy trails can be hard work and with that much riding, a mild overuse injury can easily lead to recurrent soreness and/or lameness that doesn't really localize to one leg or is present in more than one limb. Do you feed him when you're done riding? What does he do after you're ridden? Stall, turnout, other? Has he had hoof testers or nerve blocks to try to identify where, exactly, the pain/soreness is from?

ETA: I re-read and see that bute helps significantly


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Sharpie said:


> I'm trying to work this out in my head. He gets fed grain twice daily, right? So does he get sore twice a day too? Is it always the same time of day? What does he do that lets you know he's sore? What does he do when he's not sore? What time of day is he comfortable vs not comfortable? How long after a meal does it take for him to get sore? How long until he's comfortable again?
> 
> Was he sore over winter on the low NSC diet, or just since you switched him to keep weight on? Was he ridden much in winter? I know you said he gets skinny if you don't feed him his normal routine, and if he's a picky eater on top of it, that's even tougher.
> 
> What happens if you skip his grain for a week? Is he more comfortable foot-wise or the same? What happens if you give him a dose of bute? Is he more comfortable or no difference? (I am NOT suggesting long term bute! Just interested in how it affects him to try and figure out what might/might not work or be going on.)



He's fed twice a day and sore for the entire time,bute helps he goes sound when given 3 grams. Did bute today so i could get him tested for mounted patrol,they wont let you test a sore/lame horse.

If i skip grain for a week he stays sound and is less nutty. Problem is he can't not be fed he'll drop weight. Was sound all winter didn't get riden all winter to icey and cold. When he's sore he's real short strided at walk and real choppy gait at trot,and a real **** ant to ride. Yes i'v riden him sore but for most part i bute if he's sore,that's a daily thing right now.


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

I don't mean to be harsh, but if he is sore enough that he's needing 3g of bute to come sound and he's needing bute daily to stay comfortable, you need to a) have him vetted and b) not ride or work him until the source of his pain is identified and there is a treatment plan in place.

No matter if it is dietary or otherwise, riding your horse when he is obviously painful or is needing that much NSAIDs to mask the pain is unacceptable.

Perhaps you can also give him the week you'd skip grain off as a rest week. That should help avoid excess weightloss as well until you get to the bottom of it and have things heading the right way for a long-term sound and healthy horse. It sounds like you care about his well-being and performance, I have no doubt of that, but sometimes a little patience and extra time on the front end can save a lot of time, effort, money and heartache on the far end.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Sharpie he's 4 years old doesn't have arthritis he's been vetted nothing was found wrong. Had Xrays they were clean. He cant survive on pasture and hay only he'll drop off weight and be a score of 2 within a month. Even in winter months requires hard feed and has to be blanketed. 

Loosie, he has ulcers all the time gets treated for them gets better the it starts all over again. He's a high stung horse he's nervious jumpy,looky and farriers hate working on him.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Here's pictures of feet right after being shod forgot i had these's, last shoeing 4/6/2015.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

What did the vet do when he was vetted? Did you get radiographs? What views? If my horse was sore and needed bute to come sound for riding I would be calling the vet and investigating. It sounds like a complex issue that is a balance between his sugars and his weight. I think it sounds like laminitis.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I'm kind of lost to understand why you're doing this. I'm thinking we're missing something... There are generally plenty of other options to grain/high starch horse feeds for conditioning, lucerne, copra, rice & soy, oil, legumes, beet pulp, etc. 

If he is sore on grain & not without, definitely wouldn't be feeding him grain. If he has stomach ulcers, definitely wouldn't be feeding him grain(& be VERY reticent about bute too). If you can only feed twice daily, esp in light of above, wouldn't be feeding him grain. It's perpetuating ulcers, can be contributing to his failure to thrive, to leaky gut/laminitis, to lack of magnesium(which may be behind jumpy behaviour), and of course your purse, with continual ulcer treatment and extra feed & bute. 

If he needs padded shoes and bute to be comfortable, I would not be riding him, definitely not hard. If this has been going on, more than short term, I would have called the vet it.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Also sounds like hard work for a 4yo & don't forget his feet aren't fully developed at that age either. Just noticed his age now. One (more) reason I'd go boots instead of shoes. Don't like to shoe them before maturity.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Its only been in last two week and he was just vetted. And had 4 different views of xrays and they were clean. He's short strided not limping lame. He can't be barefoot his soles get bruised,he flat soled. Don't think he could be in boots 24/7 because he needs protection 24/7 for his hoofs. 

Then if no grain then what am i going to feed that he'll eat?? would need to be more then hay pellets and not beet pulp he WONT touch the stuff.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

If he's so sore/thin soled that he's not even comfortable in the paddock, don't ride him! If you haveim bute to ride, don't ride him! If he's 'short striding', just because he's not bad/worse on one foot so limping, doesn't mean to say he's not lame!!! 

He is in a very bad way if he's not even 'paddock sound'! I'd absolutely get those shoes off & start working towards him growing healthy feet. Yes, if he's that bad & you can't keep him on comfortable, yielding footing, then boots 24/7 until he's over the worst of it may be necessary. *Most riding boots aren't made for this use tho, so rehab boots, casting, etc is an option.

Grain is not the only of his worries, although it sounds like it's a definite contributor. As mentioned, there are many alternatives if he needs extra energy, aside from beet pulp, if you look. Look into alternatives for ulcer treatment too, if he's on meds for it. These do indeed help suppress (stomach, not hind gut)ulcers, but not heal the gut or allow it to work properly, so the horse tends to need to stay on them to stay ulcer free. With reduced function. So... I'd consider a herbal alternative/combination for ulcers, probiotics and LOW STARCH diet. And appropriate nutrition. *Mg might be best given transdermally until gut has healed. Sounds like you need to consult a good vet & good nutritionist too, for starters. And quit feeding grain, at very least for now. And quit riding him, unless you only want him for the very short term.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Perhaps you could post some pics OP, of the whole horse, his hooves(those pics you posted not great - see signature link for what's needed), more info on environment, etc.


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

jazzy475 said:


> Its only been in last two week and he was just vetted. And had 4 different views of xrays and they were clean. He's short strided not limping lame. He can't be barefoot his soles get bruised,he flat soled. Don't think he could be in boots 24/7 because he needs protection 24/7 for his hoofs.
> 
> Then if no grain then what am i going to feed that he'll eat?? would need to be more then hay pellets and not beet pulp he WONT touch the stuff.


Was he vetted before or after he came up lame? Have you talked to your vet about his continued soreness since then? Was he shod with pads before or after he came up lame? If before, why did you choose to go with pads? 

Short strided is still pain/lameness/discomfort, it just means that there isn't one foot/leg that is very much worse than the others.

You could feed him rice bran, cool calories, veggie oil, black oil sunflower seeds (it seems some horses really like them too), whole or ground flax, any or all of which could be fed with alfalfa pellets if he doesn't like beet pulp. Or you could go with one of the low NSC complete feeds like SafeChoice for IR/Cushings/PSSM/Laminitic prone horses (even though you said he tested clear for the first two, he could still be the third or fourth). Consider free choice full time alfalfa +/- alfalfa cubes or pellets, especially since the calcium could also be helpful for his gut.

Does he get to eat while you're working? If he is going 3-4 hours without feed nearly every day, that's working on an empty stomach, which puts him at risk for ulcers. Can you take a 20 min break in the middle and put a feedbag with alfalfa pellets on him? If he's working that hard, that many hours per week, that much exercise and metabolic strain puts him at risk for ulcers. If he is in pain, that stress puts him at risk for ulcers. If he gets bute, especially at higher doses, that puts him at risk for ulcers.

Honestly, your guy is young and already working a heck of a lot harder than any of the endurance horses I know work. None of the cowboys I know work their horses that hard either, they DO work that hard, of course, but they switch off which horses work which days so it's not the same one every day.

Your guy is at risk for ulcers, laminitits (concussion and/or metabolic), weight loss, muscle strain, sprain, and joint injuries if you do not manage him very carefully and give him time to heal.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

So farrier came out pulled both front has some seperation at toes,and he's sensitive to hoof testers applied any where near toes. sole on both front has give with just pressure applied with thumb. 

Has bruising all around apex of frog on both fronts,he's back in shoes with pads and frog support. Farrier is afraid he'll punch holes in his soles if left barefoot so re shod him. No choice i have no boots here for being left on 24/7.

He walked off fairly sound after,was a nut case to shoe,had to have vet come tranq him so he didn't kill the farrier. Was him being a lunatic nothing new its just the way it is. 

I'am looking into a supplement for ulcers, problem is getting him to eat it,reason i do the ulcer guard it's in a tube,so he has no choice but to take it. I know i need to change his diet,but don't want him to drop off weight. He's a very high strung horse and very nervy easily upset. Change routine and he loses his mind,late for feeding he's pacing and running the fence in a panic.:-(


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Sharpie said:


> Was he vetted before or after he came up lame? Have you talked to your vet about his continued soreness since then? Was he shod with pads before or after he came up lame? If before, why did you choose to go with pads?
> 
> Short strided is still pain/lameness/discomfort, it just means that there isn't one foot/leg that is very much worse than the others.
> 
> ...


He was shod before he came up sore,vet was here a week ago,i talked to vet several times. He wont eat cool calories or rice bran doesn't do powdered stuff. As far as black oil sunflowers not sure he'd eat it. 

When he's worked we stop and let them eat grass every 45 minutes or so,sometimes he eats sometimes not. If he's being a nut case no he wont eat just dances around wanting to go. 

He has no joint or muscle issues that was all rule out when vet came who's also a chiro. He just has sore feet nothing else. He's not metabolic was already tested was well with the normal range. 

The testing for metabolic problems was done almost a month ago,believe me vet has been here 3 different times now 4 including today.

I'am trying to help him i'v just gotten in over my head with the problems here.:wink: Reason i'am asking for help here,so not trying to be a jerk or act like i don't care i do care alot about this horse.


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## ToManyHorsesAndOnePony (Oct 16, 2013)

He doesn't need to be ridden


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jazzy475 said:


> So farrier came out pulled both front has some seperation at toes,and he's sensitive to hoof testers applied any where near toes. sole on both front has give with just pressure applied with thumb.
> 
> Has bruising all around apex of frog on both fronts,he's back in shoes with pads and frog support. Farrier is afraid he'll punch holes in his soles if left barefoot so re shod him. No choice i have no boots here for being left on 24/7.
> 
> ...



Well, that hoof assessment , plus the feeding high NSC and then the soreness, sure screams founder to me. The very wrost thing you can do, as what you have done- load those compromised walls and not support that coffin bone!
If you want to help the horse, ether shoe him at least with pour in hoof support gel packing, or get some hoof boots and pads. Do not ride ahorse with compromised feet like that, or you do risk having that coffin bone come through the sole!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

i see you do have him shod with frog support Obviously, the horse has foundered, and you need to change his diet.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Vet Took lateral views before he was shod he has no rotation of coffen bone no distal sinking. 

He was just short strided prior to farrier coming today.Was also checked by vet had no heat in hoofs and digital pulse was normal,and was standing normal also. 

Loosie, i'll look at your signature on how to get good hoof pictures. Environment he lives in is sand and rock mix,he runs on 15 acres of pasture. He lives with two other horses both gelding. He's low man on totem pole,gets pushed out of hay. 

Gets fed round bales there put in feeders and horses eat at will,have out two bales so he can eat where other two horses aren't. 
They have a run in shed in pasture,also a barn with stalls hardly ever put in barn only in really bad weather. 

They pretty much run free most of the year,only locked up in corrals in winter and spring till grass comes. Right now they are in corrals near barn till about second week in may. Free choice loose salt and free choice mineral in both corrals and in pasture. 

They aren't pampered by any means they are horses who get to live as close to natural as possible. My 4 year old never lived like he is now was always locked up in a stall with limited turnout. that was previous owner not me.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

This morning he's back to a 100% sound,so what farrier did made a huge difference.:lol:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You can has distal descent without rotation. Stretched while line at the toes, soles so thin, in danger of coffin bone coming through, now shod with frog support, thus assume, heart bar shoe or some pour in padding, plus that history after feeding-sorry but I have dealt with a laminitc horse, and the results when she was fed incorrectly while I was laid up with knee replacements, and your horse's case history is strongly suggestive of laminitis, even if the rotation is minimal at this point. Can't have compromised white line at the toe, brusing around the frog and try conclude that no laminitic strss was put on those feet


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jazzy475 said:


> So farrier came out pulled both front has some seperation at toes,and he's sensitive to hoof testers applied any where near toes. sole on both front has give with just pressure applied with thumb.
> 
> Has bruising all around apex of frog on both fronts,he's back in shoes with pads and frog support. Farrier is afraid he'll punch holes in his soles if left barefoot so re shod him. No choice i have no boots here for being left on 24/7.
> 
> ...


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Smilie said:


> I can well imagine that he was hard to shoe said:
> 
> 
> > The xrays showed no rotation not even a degree of rotation,so not sure how coffen bone could be close to coming through the sole. I typed out that post so i know what i put. He hurt some but he is a very reactive horse even when there's no pain.
> ...


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jazzy475 said:


> Smilie said:
> 
> 
> > The xrays showed no rotation not even a degree of rotation,so not sure how coffen bone could be close to coming through the sole. I typed out that post so i know what i put. He hurt some but he is a very reactive horse even when there's no pain.
> ...


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Get him OFF of the pasture. This is Spring, and he may have a mild case of grass founder. You have to monitor your horses. The sugars in the grass are very high, horses need a low protein, low sugar diet. The sugars in the fast growing Spring grass max out in the afternoon.
My Vet comes out for shots and gives me her # grass founder report, how many horses she has treated so far for it.
Have your Vet come out and check.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Corporal said:


> Get him OFF of the pasture.
> Have your Vet come out and check.



Vet did come out he's already been checked xrayed and shod with pads and frog support. He wears a grazing muzzle so grass intake is restricted,he's checked on daily. 

He's on pasture 12 hours and in dry lot 12 hours with a round bale to eat,plus hard feed he gets.:wink:


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think he's possibly just getting laminitis bad enough to make him sore - could even be a combination of mechanical laminitis from all the work on hard ground and a sensitivity to starch and sugars in oats/spring grass
Pads are good protection but they also provide a great breeding ground for bacterial and fungal infections. He might be better with just a half pad so you can still wash his feet out regularly and see what's going on with them
There are plenty of good complete feeds now that are high oil for weight gain but low starch/low sugar and I would put him on one of those instead of the oats and calf manna
The Ingredients for the Calf manna doesn't show iron in the minerals list but does show iron oxide, Ferrous Sulphate and Ferrous carbonate in the actual ingredients which seems odd - ferrous sulphate is used to treat anemia. Iron in too large a quantity is bad for the hooves and you might already be in a high iron area
If you can get Triple Crown feeds in your area then try their Safe Starch Forage and Low Starch pellets mixed in with it - or alfalfa pellets mixed in with it


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

jaydee said:


> I think he's possibly just getting laminitis bad enough to make him sore - could even be a combination of mechanical laminitis from all the work on hard ground and a sensitivity to starch and sugars in oats/spring grass
> Pads are good protection but they also provide a great breeding ground for bacterial and fungal infections. He might be better with just a half pad so you can still wash his feet out regularly and see what's going on with them
> There are plenty of good complete feeds now that are high oil for weight gain but low starch/low sugar and I would put him on one of those instead of the oats and calf manna
> The Ingredients for the Calf manna doesn't show iron in the minerals list but does show iron oxide, Ferrous Sulphate and Ferrous carbonate in the actual ingredients which seems odd - ferrous sulphate is used to treat anemia. Iron in too large a quantity is bad for the hooves and you might already be in a high iron area
> If you can get Triple Crown feeds in your area then try their Safe Starch Forage and Low Starch pellets mixed in with it - or alfalfa pellets mixed in with it



Farrier put stuff on hoofs to prevent thrush,should be ok he's never had issues with thrush before.

Feed store is out of the TC safe starch,said it would be monday before they got more in. So i got 2 bags of safe choice special care,he isn't getting sore after having it. Grass has never be an issue before for him,guess its possible.

Ground he was being worked on isn't hard its sandy.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jazzy475 said:


> Vet did come out he's already been checked xrayed and shod with pads and frog support. He wears a grazing muzzle so grass intake is restricted,he's checked on daily.
> 
> He's on pasture 12 hours and in dry lot 12 hours with a round bale to eat,plus hard feed he gets.:wink:


 Is that hard feed still all those oats and calf mana? You have way more concentrated NSC there than even in spring grass
I find it contrary to be using a grazing muzzle, yet dumping all those high levels of NSC into him.
Maybe you have changed his feed by now, but I.m going back to what you were feeding him when his feet got sore


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

here is what you said you were feeding him, when he got sore:

My 4 year old quarter horse TB cross comes up sore footed,10 to 12 hours after being fed calf-manna and oats 2lbs of each. He's worked hard 3 to 4 hours a day 5 to 6 days a week,lots of trotting,some catering. All his work is out on the trails.



I'm glad that you are now trying to address his diet, but his diet was certainly a factor before, regarding those feet.
Frog support = coffin bone support Bruising around the apex of the frog, is usually caused by the coffin bone. You could be lucky and caught him before he foundered, as horses can recover from laminitis without suffering the chronic state of founder, but you are not going to convince by what you have posted, that this horse did not have some laminitic issues.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Smilie said:


> here is what you said you were feeding him, when he got sore:
> 
> My 4 year old quarter horse TB cross comes up sore footed,10 to 12 hours after being fed calf-manna and oats 2lbs of each. He's worked hard 3 to 4 hours a day 5 to 6 days a week,lots of trotting,some catering. All his work is out on the trails.
> 
> ...



I'v changed his hard feed now so no longer getting oats & calf manna. I'am not totally convinced it was laminitis. He never had heat pulse was normal when vet checked and he was sore at that time. 

He's on safe choice special care maybe not the best,but all feed store had. Its 15% NSC, they were out of TC safe starch.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

You feed 8lbs of hard feed, but he's in a grazing muzzle. He's got a round bale but he's in a grazing muzzle. He's not gaining weight but he's in a grazing muzzle. He's foot sore but you ride him hard long and often. He's hot and nervy and you stress him even more. Oh yeah, and he's miraculously cured after the farrier was there.... For how long? Until you ride him again as usual. 
I don't think anybody here can help this poor horse.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

deserthorsewoman said:


> You feed 8lbs of hard feed, but he's in a grazing muzzle. He's got a round bale but he's in a grazing muzzle. He's not gaining weight but he's in a grazing muzzle. He's foot sore but you ride him hard long and often. He's hot and nervy and you stress him even more. Oh yeah, and he's miraculously cured after the farrier was there.... For how long? Until you ride him again as usual.
> I don't think anybody here can help this poor horse.


Yes, 8 lbs of hot feed a day, getting sore after one of those feedings, about the time the results of that blood glucose and insulin response hit the feet, very thin soles (ie coffin bone low in the foot, stretched white line, farrier doing what he can to support coffin bone, and no chance of laminitis, diet induced. 
Do you know how completely un believelable that sounds, and did not Loosie even comment on how you also added treats to that hot food???
All the Remission in the World is not going to compensate for that dump of sugar.
I have dealh with an IR horse since she was three, and she is now 14. I am very familiar with hoof issues as they relate to laminitis, both through my experience, attending equine seminars , taking barefoot trimming courses, reading the works of people like Pete Ramey, Jackson,Dr R Bowker, etc!
I am glad that you are addressing that diet, and got that horse some coffin bone support. If he is not IR yet, you should be able to prevent any further incidences just by feeding him a diet lower in starch and sugar, as you were previously, but don't be blind as to what very thin soles, a stretched white line and bruising in front of the apex of the coffin bone indicate


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

deserthorsewoman said:


> You feed 8lbs of hard feed, but he's in a grazing muzzle. He's got a round bale but he's in a grazing muzzle. He's not gaining weight but he's in a grazing muzzle. He's foot sore but you ride him hard long and often. He's hot and nervy and you stress him even more. Oh yeah, and he's miraculously cured after the farrier was there.... For how long? Until you ride him again as usual.
> I don't think anybody here can help this poor horse.


He only wears grazing muzzle while on pasture. And just so you know i'am not riding him. He wasn't miraculously cured,but what farrier did made a huge difference,so whats so wrong with that???? 

I'am not stressing him, he's been like this long before i got him at least he's at a decent weight now,so i must be doing something right. I rode him once while short strided. If i didn't care i would of never had the vet out and never bothered with having him shod.

Don't need to be so rude.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Yes, 8 lbs of hot feed a day, getting sore after one of those feedings, about the time the results of that blood glucose and insulin response hit the feet, very thin soles (ie coffin bone low in the foot, stretched white line, farrier doing what he can to support coffin bone, and no chance of laminitis, diet induced.
> Do you know how completely un believelable that sounds, and did not Loosie even comment on how you also added treats to that hot food???
> All the Remission in the World is not going to compensate for that dump of sugar.
> I have dealh with an IR horse since she was three, and she is now 14. I am very familiar with hoof issues as they relate to laminitis, both through my experience, attending equine seminars , taking barefoot trimming courses, reading the works of people like Pete Ramey, Jackson,Dr R Bowker, etc!
> I am glad that you are addressing that diet, and got that horse some coffin bone support. If he is not IR yet, you should be able to prevent any further incidences just by feeding him a diet lower in starch and sugar, as you were previously, but don't be blind as to what very thin soles, a stretched white line and bruising in front of the apex of the coffin bone indicate


Yes loosie did commented on the treats and i'am not giving the treats any more. Will read on pete Ramey ,jackson,Dr Bowker to learn more about laminitis here. 

According to test he's not IR will only feed this safe choice feed till i can get better low starch/sugar feed. For now he can survive on just 2 lbs of hard feed a day. :wink:


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

So if he's at a decent weight, how come you ask for advice on a feeding program in your latest thread? 
I'm not being rude, I'm just stating facts, and it all doesn't make any sense whatsoever.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

deserthorsewoman said:


> So if he's at a decent weight, how come you ask for advice on a feeding program in your latest thread?
> I'm not being rude, I'm just stating facts, and it all doesn't make any sense whatsoever.


Because he will lose weight like he does every summer that's why. I want to prevent him becoming a body score of 2 1/2 or a 3.

He's a very stressy, nervious horse so needs to be feed alot of hard feed to keep weight on him. 24/7 hay or grass wont keep weight on him i found that out last summer,when he dropped off 150lbs,he wasn't being riden at that point.

Didn't start riding him till late last fall,thought turning him out to pasture with the other 2 horses would help calm him down. It didn't help much the other 2 horses don't like him so chase him off if he gets close. They run on 15 acres so he learned to stay his distance. 

He's still not part of their little herd and it will be a year next month he's been here.:wink:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Once you get him on cool calories,, you might find that helps not only his feet, but also his hyper attitude
By hard feed, you of course are referring to concentrates, but you have to weigh the type of calories you are feeding, regarding risk of laminitis.
I know you are switching to cool calories, and that is a good thing. Many senior horse feeds use cool calories, versus hot calories from grain, as many senior horses have metabolic issues so that hot calories should not be used
The fiber used in those seniors feeds is beet pulp
There are many 'safer 'ways to add calories for weight, besides feeding hot calories, where the risk of laminitis goes up with amount fed-like you WERE doing
The place to start, far as weigh gain, is to feed a more nutritious dense hay, like a alfalfa mix You can also add soaked beet pulp, as it has a calorie value between that of forage and grain, but , since it is digested as a forage, does not have the same associated risk as feeding more grain
If that is still not enough calories, then add fat, like flax or canola oil
In other words, a 'normal' horse, one that is not IR, has way less risk of getting laminitis from grass, then from all that concentrated hot calories that you were feeding
Your horse does not have to be IR, to be pushed into a laminitic incident. Many "normal' horses, in an extreme example of your former diet, get into the food room and pig out on grain, and thus developing acute laminitis.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

personally, if he were my horse, I would let him work out those herd dynamics, as he has lots of room to avoid being chased into a corner, and with time, horses do accept new herd members.
His management is helping to make him the hyper horse that he is. Let him be a horse. Turn him out with other horses. Get rid of all those hot calories.
He might well be a horse that does not need a grazing muzzle
The only horses of ours, that go out with grazing muzzles are the easy keepers
I don't see the sense of putting a grazing muzzle on a horse that has a weight gaining problem, and then socking that grain at him.
Grass hay is great for horses that gain weight too quickly, and certainly many IR horses can't have alfalfa, but if a horse is not IR, and since the main part of any horses diet should be forage , then the place to start, far as weigh gain, is to feed a more energy dense hay


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Info on feeding lots of NSC, as in calf mana and oats
I am not in the least surprised that your horse is hyper, on that 'rocket fuel'!

Fluctuations in blood levels of stress hormones will produce this behavior. Complex carbohydrates forming the long stem fiber in forages are not a problem, as they are slowly digested by hind gut fermentation to yield volatile fatty acids for absorption into blood. This doesn't create the hormone fluctuations associated with diets high in soluble carbs. Soluble carbohydrates ( starches and sugars) digested by enzymes in the fore gut can produce a number of undesirable effects, and consumption of dietary overages has been linked to numerous metabolic disorders of fat and glucose metabolism as well as structural diseases such as degenerative joint disease and others. 

When overages of soluble carbohydrates are consumed at any given meal, they are digested by enzymes in the fore gut and rapidly absorbed into blood as glucose (simple sugar). The heavy load of glucose entering blood produces hyperglycemia (high blood-sugar) which triggers release of various hormones that facilitate removal of the glucose from the blood for processing, storage, and metabolism. Adrenaline (also called epinephrine),cortisol, and insulin are among the major hormones released. and each produces multiple effects as they interact with their target cells throughout the body. 

High starch cereal grains and supplements like calf manna are likely to produce these effects unless meals are divided into multiple feedings of only small amounts at each meal in order to minimize the amount of glucose entering blood at any given time. Since high starch diets are being linked to so many health issues, these days, increasing the amount of dietary fat consumed is recommended when added calories are needed for weight gain.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Smilie said:


> personally, if he were my horse, I would let him work out those herd dynamics, as he has lots of room to avoid being chased into a corner, and with time, horses do accept new herd members.
> His management is helping to make him the hyper horse that he is. Let him be a horse.
> 
> He is out with the other horses,its been almost a year and he isn't accepted yet i leave them to work things out. Even out on pasture he's spooks at stuff that other two don't pay any attention to.
> ...


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Haven't read everything but saw you said he hates powderfeed, have you tried the pelleted rice bran? Its a little more expensive but my horse gobbled it right down. If he'll eat that it will help with calorie intake for sure.

Manna Pro Max-E-Glo Stabilized Rice Bran Pellet, 40 lb. - Tractor Supply Co.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

I've dealt with founder/laminitis...

I would STOP riding this horse. I would get another vet, and another farrier...ASAP. Do another round of x-rays. Get him off the grain/high starch, and feed only grass/mix hay. This screams of founder/laminitis.

And pads will not help laminitis.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Just to be clear on what he's eating right now for hard feed is safe choice special care. Feed store didn't have cool calories or TC safe starch ,will have both in on monday.

He's only getting a pound of the safe choice twice a day,kinda leery of going higher on amount. Thought i'd do 8 lbs but thinking i'll keep it at 2 lbs,till i can get him on the better feed.

If he comes up sore i ditch the safe choice,will find out here in about 45 minutes when i go out to feed him.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Too many contradictions already to your story 'Jazzy' for me to make head or tail. All I can say is that it seems you don't see the forest for the trees, and no one's going to be able to help your horse until you start looking rationally at what you're doing/saying/ what's happening to him.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

You have stopped riding this poor horse haven't you 'Jazzy'???

Have you noticed how many contradictions?? For eg. if he's uber thin & flat soled, that DOESN'T FIT with then trying to have us believe xrays(have you really had any??) showed no ditsal descent.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Yes i'v stopped riding him. Ok i have two threads going and well i'am getting a bit confused on things sorry. Just what info have i given conflicting info on?? 

I'am trying to be rational here not trying to confuse any one.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

loosie said:


> Have you noticed how many contradictions?? For eg. if he's uber thin & flat soled, that DOESN'T FIT with then trying to have us believe xrays(have you really had any??) showed no ditsal descent.


Yes he had Xrays i don't have them vet hasn't sent them to me so hard to post xrays i don't have. 

I'am only telling what vet told me,i haven't a clue how to read xrays. :wink:


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

Safe Choice Special Care has an NSC of about 15%. Not bad but still kind of high for a horse going through current laminitis issues. ECIR.org pretty much recommends getting the NSC to 10 or under.

If at 4 yrs old this horse is already having problems I'd be watching his diet like a hawk and learning everything I could about insulin resistance and metabolic issues.

Cool calories is powdered vegetable oil.Soy I believe. While I've never worried about what kind of fats to use because I've never had to use them long term. Soy oil is high in Omega 6 fats and can aggravate inflammation issues. Flax has the best in Omega 3 fat. Lot of times when an oil says vegetable oil it's usually soy but could contain whatever plant oil was cheap that week.



This horse has another 30 years ahead of him if you pay attention.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Roman said:


> Perhaps you work him too much? 3-4 hours a day, 5-6 days a week is a lot of work.
> That's 15-24hours of work every week.


He's also 4...

If he has lousy feet I'm sure that and shoeing are part of it. Take care of those issues.

He very well may have laminitis, that's what it sounds like, or be very sensitive.

Just cut out his feed and find a different healthier food. (for any horse let alone one with issues).

While I know horses fed calf manna it's fed as a conditioning supplement, definitely not 4lbs a day! That's not what it's designed for and if he needs that much for weight then you have other issues going on.

Feed bag says 2 pounds max and that is for hard working breeding stallions... your horse should only be getting a handful or so if you want to feed it. You are way overfeeding..

Taking his digital pulse is an excellent idea.

You are dumping rich feed in and riding very hard and wonder why his feet are sore.

ETA-not surprised that his pulse was up (it should be stronger not "up")


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Thanks SueNH and yogi. I'v got to get off here for a bit and take a ride,not on the 4 year old. Need to clear my thoughts here this has gotten to be way more info then i can even process. 

I'am going to ask a mod to close my other thread i can't deal with 2.Be back after a while.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I tend to post as I read so my apologies.

All I have to say is that I agree with what has been said and think you need to step back and start from the basics with management. You are also linking "a=b" when that is not the case.

My point- my horse was _crippled_....x-rays were clean.LAMINTIS IS INFLAMMATION AND WILL NOT SHOW ON X-RAYS. Clean x-rays are good obviously but doesn't mean there isn't anything wrong.

I was going to post a video of my horse but it won't let me. (any free no account needed video uploading sites?)


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

Jazz you may want to cut that special care with some timothy pellets and/or beet pulp for now. Get that starch down.

ecirhorse.org for about the most complete info out there. The mailing list is kind of mind boggling because it's so busy but there is great stuff there.

One possibility for a feed is a low carb senior feed. I know he's only 4 but the senior feeds have extra fat of the right kind. Hard to find them still. Kind of new. Poulin makes one but they are only in New England and NY. Ranch-way makes one called defiance sound starch senior. In the southwest LMF makes one. They are out there just have to look.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Yogiwick said:


> I tend to post as I read so my apologies.
> 
> All I have to say is that I agree with what has been said and think you need to step back and start from the basics with management. You are also linking "a=b" when that is not the case.
> 
> ...


If you email me the video I can upload it to my youtube or my site for you


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

My horse is on cool calories and I have to say I am not a huge fan of the supplement. My horse was put on it because my current BO felt my horse was thin and needed some extra weight. The supplement was from a horse that had left the barn. It has not put weight on my horse as quickly as I thought it would. It might work for your horse because he clearly needs calories.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> I tend to post as I read so my apologies.
> 
> All I have to say is that I agree with what has been said and think you need to step back and start from the basics with management. You are also linking "a=b" when that is not the case.
> 
> ...


I know inflammation doesn't show on xrays,i also realize he still has issues i'am not trying to deny that. 

So he's come up really sore tonight so safe choice has to go,obviously he can't even eat that. I don't even know where to begin,thought i had a clue on things now i'am thinking i don't. 

Cant even get info vet gave me right, or what iv done and haven't done. Not sure vet is right or if farrier has done right by my horse. 

Then i kept riding when he was short striding because i thought that didn't equal lame. :-( So i'v got to find my way out of my mess now,and the confusion i started here, on whats going on.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I wish you luck, because laimintis can very very complicated. Right now, do you even know if it is the feed, or if his feet are unstable?
If that coffin bone is not supported and inflammation eliminated, the effects of the previous sugar insult could be having on going consequences.
I do know, that when I tried to use sole support , first on Smilie, I had to remove it, as her soles were too sensitive to take that pressure. Some coustom padding, giving relief at that area in front of the apex of the frog, solved the problem. She is now fine, but it took time.
What I'm saying, the recent shoing and frog support (did he use a heart bar shoe? or pour in padding) could be why he is sore, and not the diet In other words, support might not be suffient to prevent some rotation, or soles might be too senstive to take any sole pressure from the padding


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

No regular shoes were used with pads and a stuff squirted in between pad and hoof. 
Stuff was in a calking like tube,i don't know what it was called. Honestly i don't know if feed effected him or its the shoe job. It could be both feed and shoeing effecting him. 

If the padding needs removing farrier will need to come back to do so. He's not on any kind of medication for pain. He maybe needs to be on bute for a few days to help reduce possible inflammation.? Will be calling vet in the morning i need to find out more info about the xrays that were taken.Will also ask about giving bute for a few days.


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

No grass, dry lot with soaked hay. No grain. Beet pulp well soaked and rinsed. Until he's over his soreness.

DDT - Diet

I'm not so sure about the pads either. There's no telling what's going on with the sole in those pads. Could be flopped over bars, false sole, thin sole, any number of things and it's now hidden.

What state do you live in? Maybe somebody can recommend a good vet or farrier?

I used Safe Choice special care on my TWH for a little while. Worked for her but it was too rich for my other 2. I was also suspicious about the iron oxide red color. Excess iron is no good for horses, especially IR horses. Mostly they get plenty from their hay. Wasn't a lot of iron listed but the color of the pellets made me think it was hidden somewhere in the ingredients. I don't have a reliable source of Nutrena feeds so I had to figure other things out.

photobucket.com is free for vids and photos. All you need is an email address. You could even make an email address on gmail for just that. If you want to email me pictures of the horse and xrays I'll even post them for you.

I'm no good with xrays but there are several on here that are.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Jazzy, Many of us have been around the block with hard keepers. I took a course in Horse Health Care taught at a local Community College by an excellent equine vet. I learned that hard keepers get thrown as much hay as they will consume FIRST to put weight on.
I also learned that Spring grass is dangerous. It's also dangerous when you have a period of heavy rain in the middle of the summer bc it replicates the high sugar content of fast growing spring grass.
Smilie listed all of the things that YOU are personally responsible for regarding how you are feeding and treating your horse.
At some point a horse with laminitis is no longer an athlete bc the coffin bones have rotated to the point that they are no longer structurally able to support the hoof. NO HOOF NO HORSE
We aren't just trying to answer your question. We are trying to educate you about how the most vulnerable part of any horse is his digestive system, and you can harm him by poor feeding habits.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Corporal said:


> Jazzy, Many of us have been around the block with hard keepers. I took a course in Horse Health Care taught at a local Community College by an excellent equine vet. I learned that hard keepers get thrown as much hay as they will consume FIRST to put weight on.
> I also learned that Spring grass is dangerous. It's also dangerous when you have a period of heavy rain in the middle of the summer bc it replicates the high sugar content of fast growing spring grass.
> Smilie listed all of the things that YOU are personally responsible for regarding how you are feeding and treating your horse.
> At some point a horse with laminitis is no longer an athlete bc the coffin bones have rotated to the point that they are no longer structurally able to support the hoof. NO HOOF NO HORSE
> We aren't just trying to answer your question. We are trying to educate you about how the most vulnerable part of any horse is his digestive system, and you can harm him by poor feeding habits.


He's on hay only has hay 24/7 never runs out,hay alone DOESN'T keep weight on him. Hay only short term is ok,in long run he drops weight on that alone. 

SueNH i can upload pics & xrays videos not sure. He off pasture and in dry lot now. Waiting to hear back from vet called and left message. I don't have xrays vet never emailed them to me,wont get them today he's not in his office.

Also called farrier can't come till monday she's out of town.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

I would get another opinion from another farrier, one who has a lot of experience with founder/laminitis.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think I would have some blood rests run on the horse - horses are 'survivors' - deep primitive instinct in them dictates that to exist you have to eat and I've never had a truly healthy horse that was so picky that it turned its nose up at basic feedstuffs like sugar beet - it shouldn't have so much water in it that it looks like soup though one of my horses who has her (hung) water bucket next to her manger (dictated by location of the cross beam its hung from) always manages to drop some feed in her water while she eats and looks around but as soon as the water level has dropped down low she slurps up all the feed that's in the bottom of it


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

There has to be a reason that he is not eating 'normal' foods, it could be he has caps loose at the back of the jaw or, something internal which a blood test will show.

I would also say that he has laminitis, possibly brought on by concussion. 

A question I would like to ask is why, if the horse is lame supposedly from bruised soles, is he still being ridden 20+ miles a day? 
Giving bite is not making him sound it is just masking the pain and for me anyone that *knows *their horse is lame from bruised feet and masks it just so it can be ridden at some sort of trial needs to review their priorities.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

He's not being riden and he's not getting bute. He has gastric ulcers and hindgut ulcers reason he's a picky eater. He's being treated for both kinds of ulcers.


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## ToManyHorsesAndOnePony (Oct 16, 2013)

Bute can cause ulcers from what I understand, and he's already under a lot of stress and is known to easily get ulcers. =/ Poor fellow he's having a rough time from the sounds of it. Good for you not riding him anymore! All this info can be a lot to take in, but we owe it to our horses to do the best we can. People get angry when a horse is in pain and they're helpless to do anything for it so try to keep your cool and get what info you can. As others have said it may be a very good idea to find a diff farrier and vet, it took me 5 years to find a good one. My Boo is just now honestly completely sound from all the damage done by farrier I thought were ok. And vets out here......... You have to be very very careful. Almost all of them will recommend straight corn and corn oil to put on weight. Don't know crap about teeth but will go ahead and give it a shot. And can't even tell you why the want to use certain medications easily. Another thing on here, it would most likely be a good idea to find and Equine Dentist and have a look at his mouth. That can make a horse kinda nutty, make them not eat some foods, AND drop weight. Ulcers can cause poor body condition as well. I don't know anything about founder or laminitis, or at least not enough to speak up. I know you need special low sugar/starch feeds. And it can be hard to do anything about. And you need to have both a good farrier and vet beside you in the long run for the treatment and long term health.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Getting a different farrier and vet aren't an option,the ones i have are reliable. I'm sick of vets and farriers who never call back and, farriers who cant even show up on the day of appt,then never bother to call. I'v got better things to do then sit around all day waiting for these idiots to never show up or call.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> There has to be a reason that he is not eating 'normal' foods, it could be he has caps loose at the back of the jaw or, something internal which a blood test will show.
> 
> I would also say that he has laminitis, possibly brought on by concussion.
> 
> ...



He just had teeth floated a month ago. He wasn't limping lame he was short strided,he hasn't ever limped. I only rode him 3 times while short strided. He hasn't had enough bute to cause any trouble gut wise. 

Once bruising shows up it happened long ago,so he wasn't short strided from the bruising farrier found. 

We didn't go 20 miles when he was short strided. :wink:
Vet called back,i don't have time to type out what i found out on xray.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I think that you should look into Senior Feeds which are formulated to be complete and fed to very elderly horses with little or NO teeth, and safe for their delicate digestive systems. They are pelleted and can be soaked to a mash.
I have owned hard keepers before, two OTTB's and "Corporal" (Arabian, 1982-2009, RIP) who could look ribby and bony. For Corporal, I ended up feeding:
2 flakes grass hay + 1 flake straight alfalfa (2x/day)
3 pounds Purina Equine Senior
YOU MUST START ANY NEW SUPPLEMENTS AT ONE HANDFUL/DAY and then ADD ONE HANDFUL MORE daily until you reach your daily maximum
You don't need the grazing muzzle. Corporal lived at my new place with pasture for his last 9 years of life. After the Spring rush, he would gain weight on the pasture.
I know that you love your horse, like we all do, and will do all that you can for him. But, I will tell you, it is SOOOOOOO much easier to care for my three easy keepers. I don't know how I did all of the other extra care.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

If, after all this, and your horse is still sore... and he puts up a fight while your farrier works on him.... all of those are red flags... Sorry, and I do not mean to be rude or nasty, I am just trying to help and I am concerned for your horse, but from what it sounds like to me, your farrier is not helping, and may actually be doing more harm than good. I know... been thru a lot of farriers, had a couple that were "the best" only to have them cripple my horse and cause founder. In the end, I ended up using a farrier that lived quite a distance away, but it was well worth the money, and saved my horse's life, literally. Also, short-strided horses are basically sore horses, and may not always have a very noticeable limp.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

If a horse is going short on both front feet usually means it is lame in both legs.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> If a horse is going short on both front feet usually means it is lame in both legs.


Then he's lame,end of story...


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Hoping you can find some help for your horse. I had my horse's x-rays sent to an equine clinic (in Minnesota, I am in Wisconsin), for a second opinion. If that is an option for you, it helped us.


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## ToManyHorsesAndOnePony (Oct 16, 2013)

The bigger issue is that he's lame and you don't know why. You say this hasn't happened before. But your vet and farrier say nothing is wrong with him. That is why you need a second opinion. Regardless of what they say ,he's lame. Therefor something is wrong with him. If they can't find and treat that problem then you need to be finding someone else that can before he gets worse. It could be the feed, farrier work, or your vet missed something. It could be anything. You won't know until you find out, but it doesn't seem like your vet is looking for any problem now because the x-rays came back clear. Your farrier put some pads on him, still not knowing whats wrong. If you only treat the symptoms, eventually there will be to many symptoms to treat


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

ToManyHorsesAndOnePony said:


> The bigger issue is that he's lame and you don't know why. You say this hasn't happened before. But your vet and farrier say nothing is wrong with him. That is why you need a second opinion. Regardless of what they say ,he's lame. Therefor something is wrong with him. If they can't find and treat that problem then you need to be finding someone else that can before he gets worse. It could be the feed, farrier work, or your vet missed something. It could be anything. You won't know until you find out, but it doesn't seem like your vet is looking for any problem now because the x-rays came back clear. Your farrier put some pads on him, still not knowing whats wrong. If you only treat the symptoms, eventually there will be to many symptoms to treat



Doesn't matter he's being PTS next week.


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

jazzy475 said:


> Doesn't matter he's being PTS next week.


Wow, did something happen? A mild laminitic attack with no descent is hardly a death sentence by itself.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Sharpie said:


> Wow, did something happen? A mild laminitic attack with no descent is hardly a death sentence by itself.


He can hardly walk stands rocked back on hindend when he's up. He's down more then up now.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hi Jazzy
I'm sorry to hear how bad your horse is ant the moment.
I was at the Mane Event, and spoke to someone who is both a vet and a farrier (Archibald Equine center), as Smilie still has some sole sensitivity, since she was over trimmed by a barefoot specialist last year, who did not take into account that she as not the sole depth of a normal non laminitc horse, putting glue on shoes
At the moment, Smilie can't take full sole pressure , even tough she needs that sole support, but she is way better than last year, sound on soft ground, barefoot
This is what that vet/farrier told me. Horses that have sensitive soles like that, can;t even take that vett tec type soles support that is applied,as you mentioned, not even their softess version.
What he does, is apply a custom made shoe, that is attached with a fabric like material and glue, and an aluminum plate, which has a rim that gives some sole relief.
The plate eliminates any pressure from un even ground and rocks, and if needed, he infuses a gel that is much softer than any of those Vet tech gels
I truly think , that at this point, even though you have his diet controlled, his soles can;t take that pressure.
I know from experience, that it takes about a day for this sole sensitivity to show up, and when that sole support is first applied, the horse seems very good, but after a day or so, that pressure on the sole causes lameness, if that sole is not able to take that pressure.
At one time, I used sole guard on Smilie, when she was barefoot, as I wanted to get her barefoot sound, versus needing to ride her in hoof boots, plus winter was coming, and I wanted her able to be comfortable barefoot, on frozen ground. She was 100%, right after that sole guard was applied but got more sore each day there after. I removed that sole Guard, put her back in hoof boots , and she was fine
I think you need to have those shoes pulled, and relieve the sole pressure somehow


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

We got one shoe off,hubby helped take it off while he was laying down. Cant get the other shoe he's laying the wrong way. His feet are hot to the touch. Have him bedded down in deep shaving. 

I don't know what to do for him,reason i posted i was having him PTS i was upset. I can order boots for him if it will help. Don't really want to put him down. 

In mean time what do i do to help him??:wink:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sorry, never read all the responses. Have you got him on an anti inflammatory, like bute? Cold hosing of his feet, and putting him in deep bedding. If you can get the shoes off, and just tape some syromfoam pads on his feet, until you get some boots, it will help.
Good luck. I know you are trying to help your horse


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Oh no! I'm so sorry.
Can you ice his feet in any way? Cold packs or something, frozen peas?
Can he be rolled over to remove the other shoe? Call the farrier now & have him come out to help you.
Do you have any bute or banamine on hand? Maybe try 10cc oral banamine or 2 grams bute. That may help get the inflammation down.
Have you talked to the vet since he's been down?
Is anyone with you? You shouldn't be alone.

Sorry for all the questions, I'm just shocked at how fast he got sick.
Don't give up yet.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Here are my videos. Evilamc was amazing and went out of her way to upload them for me.

Walking my laminitic horse over the gravel/sand driveway for a check up (paddock is just sand so hard to tell sometimes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pj_t5V_BNo&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QubyjWZ97Zs&feature=youtu.be

As you can see while he is not "limping" he is most definitely is lame and just about falls on his face in the second one when he hits a rock! Despite how dramatic he is x-rays were clean. He had a good year off pretty much and lots of tlc (laminitis due to undiagnosed Cushings)

"Sorry for all the questions, I'm just shocked at how fast he got sick."

I am not honestly. This horse has laminitis and has had laminitis and since it wasn't addressed it all came to a boiling point.

What you MUST do right now to give this guy a chance-
call the vet NOW as an emergency. If they can't come today get someone else
Ditto the farrier, preferably at the same time.
You need x-rays to ensure there is no rotation.

If he wants to be down let him be down. Keep him from moving pad his feet as much as possible (literally duct tape whatever you have for padding to his feet) and bed him super deeply.

You will want to ice his feet (I'm assuming you don't want to cold hose when he's lying in his stall!) and give him bute. I would even give him up to 3gms or more but talk to your vet since he has other issues. Mine got 2 on bad days and he was never that bad.

You MUST be VERY proactive at this point. You MUST relieve the inflammation in his feet (hence the bute, it's not specifically for pain atm). I'm guessing this is a combination of feed and very hard work on a young horse "road founder".

There are other (and opposite things) you can do such as handwalking but first you need to get him out of this stage.

Treat it as an emergency as the bone easily can rotate if it has not already and then you will be facing either PTS or a very long and painful recovery with long term effects.

This IS a situation for "don't type get a vet". Then do come back and type/update as we are rooting for you!

Personally I would be be looking for a different vet/farrier as neither noticed the warning signs. Make sure they know what they are doing with this issue.

Also, do NOT feed him ANYTHING other than the "lousiest" least rich hay possible. NO sugars. No treats no grain nadda. Yeah he probably will loose weight with the stress as well but that is not the concern right now, you are past that point. This is VERY important.

This is NOT a PTS situation..yet.. but it can become one so take it seriously. My boy is 99% sound (sore on rocks barefoot probably part mental too) and cleared for regular work. It's a danger of reoccurance due to the Cushings but he is on pergolide and is well managed so no issues.

You need x-rays and I'm hoping they are good or worst case scenario minimal rotation but we will have to see.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

I'm really really struggling with a 4 year old horse that is anxious, nervous and has ulcers, ridden so hard .. and then being PTS because he is lame.

I agree with Yogi's post above. If you're going to give him a chance ...


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

I am sorry about your horse, OP, but if he is down and not standing up much, then he is in horrific pain. 99% of the time at this stage, its time to let them go. Think of Barbaro, think of other race horses who have been put down once they get to the stage of laying down and not wanting to stand on their front feet. Now you have to think of the horse. 
Do I think your vet failed your horse? Yes. Do I think your farrier failed your horse? Yes. 
I am not sure if I would even be waiting until next week. Horse is in obvious pain. You were able to pull a shoe while horse is laying down due to pain of laminitus, a horse that normally has to be sedated for farrier work. This in isself is not a good sign. Doesn't matter how old he is , how nervous he is, etc, what matters is this horse is down and in pain.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Ulcers are usually caused by stress. 

I have had several horses come in that had ulcers, as diagnosed by endoscopy get, not guess work. Only one went onto medication. The others, by the time they were scoped showed signs of the ulcers healing so no meds were recommended.

It seems that you have a horse that is stressed/worried and even if this is part of his make up, being owned and kept privately they should be healing on their own account _*if he is in a relaxed atmosphere.*_

The fact he has laminitis, (by the sounds of things) and he is not overweight, says that the riding was the cause with to much concussion. If he finds the riding stressful then the ulcers are only going to get worse though treatment will help to heal them as soon as it is finished they will reappear.

You need to look at your management,


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> Ulcers are usually caused by stress.
> 
> I have had several horses come in that had ulcers, as diagnosed by endoscopy get, not guess work. Only one went onto medication. The others, by the time they were scoped showed signs of the ulcers healing so no meds were recommended.
> 
> ...


A horse does not have to be over weight to get laminitis, diet related, and this horse certainly was fed too much NSC, and has probably been having bouts of laminitis for some time, and then finally was pushed over the edge
The OP, in thinking she was doing the right thing, tried to put weigh on this horse that was 'under weight when she bought him, feeding him 2lbs of oats and two pounds of calf manna twice a day
Dangerous for any horse, but esp for either an over weight horse OR one whose, former life helped turn on the 'thrifty gene, and all at once given lots of hot calories
It was not the one incident, where he got sore a while after having been fed that concentrated meal, as To those of us that have dealt with the signs of laminits, before it becomes full blown, the evidence was there.
A horse short striding, needing to wear shoes and pads on those rides, because he has 'thin soles' THat is classic, for a horse that does not have enough sole depth, due to some on going laminitis, even before x-rays show any significant rotation
When the OP had farrier put shoes back on, the horse was in a founder state, that the farrier recognized, Soles so thin he feared they would be punctured, stretched white line, so I very much doubt x -rays would have shown no rotation at that point, plus brusing in front of the apex of the frog-classic sign of the coffin bone having very little sole under it
The horse was shod, needing to be tranq., as I imagine the hooves were very sore with nay nailing and standing on one foot at a time.
Yes, he was shod with some Vett tech type product , for frog/coffin bone support, bUT a horse with thin soles like that, is very prone to sole abbcessing and even the softest Vett tech pour in gel is too hard for these horses on those soles
A 'normal horse, not over fed NSC does not road founder on the types of trails the OP was riding,and shod with shoes and pads, although there could be additional mechanical insult on already compromised lamini
Bottom line there can still be hope, but those shoes have to come off a, and sole pressure has to be relieved, horse given anti inflammatories and hooves cooled . Horse not forced to move and some sort of padding, like syrofoam taped on, until hoof boots arrive. Custom padding can help these horses, with an area in the pad, right in front of the apex of that frog cut out, relieving all pressure where that sole is least able to take any pressure at the moment.
Applying something to draw any possible sole abcesses, like animal lintex, also helps
It is very wrong to assume that a horse can't founder if he is not over weight. Even normal weight horses that get into the feed room get acute laminitis
Also , any horse , fed that diet, would get high, and ulcers are the least of this horse's problem at the moment. Diet alone would also have made him not to hyper


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

A 'normal' horse can suffer with concussion laminitis if ridden day in day out for long periods at a fast pace especially if its a 'flat footed' type
He might have diet related laminitis but while 2lb of oats sounds like a lot for a horse that's doing as much regular mileage as this one it actually isn't, our hunting horses would get easily as much oats as that and not get laminitis - but they had good shaped feet so good cope with the stress of road work


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

I couldnt read all this. I see so many red blinking lights headed towards physical breakdown it isnt even funny. 

1. You are riding the holy snot out of a 4 YO. Still a youngster. Still not mature. SLOW DOWN. Less hard riding. De stress this baby. Clearly, its too much! You want to ride him his whole life, back off a bit. 

2. Said baby is anxious, nervy, and a spazz being treated for ulcers. Showing pain response when shod. Protesting the shoes. Get this horse on some magnesium supplementation STAT. This is probably a HUGE factor here. 

3. Horse needs lots of forage to keep these ulcers at bay. Keep him off the grass for now and leave him on good quality 24 - 7 hay. Do not feed this horse large "meals". Get him on a higher fat, forage based feed. Triple Crown Senior is GREAT and low starch. No more than 3 or 4 lbs at a time. Use a slow feeder net if you need to. Add some alfalfa, Aloe Juice, anything to help his belly. Give him a sedate calm older friend to hang out with. 

4. I cant see any photos but I would stop nailing on this horse till his feet stop hurting. Try some glue on shoes, hoof casting, some other alternative. I would also give NO bute to a badly ulcery horse. Get something else to manage pain from the vet. Get his ulcers treated and healed and keep them away wiyth better management. 

It sounds to me like he absolutely needs a 100% reevaluation of his life from the bottom up/method of keeping/riding schedule. 

But the first thing I would do is get the ulcers under control and get this horse on some magnesium. Ulcer treatment will make magnesium deficiency even worse. Stressed out spazzy horses are almost always deficient.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Trinity3205 said:


> I couldnt read all this. I see so many red blinking lights headed towards physical breakdown it isnt even funny.
> 
> 1. You are riding the holy snot out of a 4 YO. Still a youngster. Still not mature. SLOW DOWN. Less hard riding. De stress this baby. Clearly, its too much! You want to ride him his whole life, back off a bit.
> 
> ...


Trinity, you have to go back and read the history. This horse was fed 2 pound of oats and sweet feed, twice a day, and got sore some time after this NSC dump
There is no doubt, reading the info, both before when he was shod with pads and ridden, being 'very thin soled" and short striding, then the hoof presentation when he shod, that he suffered a major laminitc and founder incident, and had probably had some chronic laminitis previous to that, fed what he was, with soles not able to take that sole support the farrier attempted, when he was in a laminitic crisis, plus had white line separation and that typical coffin bone sole bruising,a head of the apex of the frog
Yes, ulcers might also be a concern, but they are not what has put this horse on the line between life and death at the moment!


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

I did read about the laminitus. It is just another symptom in a whole slew of issues. Magnesium can and should help every single thing on this horses laundry list alongside a much less stressful riding routine. Everything, even the laminitus and especially a history of ulcers, nerviness, spazzy etc etc, points to a big big deficiency on a stressed out horse in pain. This horse needs a big life change. diet, exercise, supplementation....all of it.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Here's the pictures again of his feet after being shod now 5 weeks ago. Don't have time to update vets here trying to get xrays,not going good..


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Need sole pics and picture of when he was re set, recently, with that stretched white line and bruising ahead of the apex of the frog
5 weeks ago, tells little of how he is today, or when last shod, except sole picture might have given some warning signs, due to depth of colateral grooves, etc. You were riding him 5 weeks ago, correct? He was not in full laminitic stance, nor lying down


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Smilie said:


> A horse does not have to be over weight to get laminitis, diet related, and this horse certainly was fed too much NSC, and has probably been having bouts of laminitis for some time, and then finally was pushed over the edge
> The OP, in thinking she was doing the right thing, tried to put weigh on this horse that was 'under weight when she bought him, feeding him 2lbs of oats and two pounds of calf manna twice a day
> Dangerous for any horse, but esp for either an over weight horse OR one whose, former life helped turn on the 'thrifty gene, and all at once given lots of hot calories
> It was not the one incident, where he got sore a while after having been fed that concentrated meal, as To those of us that have dealt with the signs of laminits, before it becomes full blown, the evidence was there.
> ...


I agree with you. I confess I do not know most of the U.S. Feed stuff, that is why I said it could have been caused by concussion.


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

I'm going to repeat myself...

DDT - Diet

*EMERGENCY DIET*
The initial/emergency diet is very simple. *Note: ALL weights are based on DRY (before soaking) weight.* (A great way to weigh your feed is with a fish scale and bucket or hay bag.)
_Grass hay_ - preferably a very late season cutting of grass hay. Timothy, orchard grass and bermuda tend towards lower simple sugars and starch content. Avoid alfalfa unless the horse is known to have tolerated it without problems in the past. The color of the hay has nothing to do with the sugar content. Until you've had the hay analyzed you should soak the hay before feeding to reduce sugars by up to ~30%, (1/2 hour hot water, 1 hour cold water), drain and feed at about 1.5%-2.0% of ideal body weight minimum (i.e. 15-20 lbs/day for a 1000 pound horse). If your horse is overweight, feed at a rate of 1.5% of his current weight, or 2% of his ideal weight , whichever is larger. Do NOT underfeed/starve the horse. Bed your horse on shavings rather than straw, as some horses will eat straw.
_Beet pulp_ - Beet pulp is used as a carrier for supplements/mineral recommendations. Rinse BP prior to soaking to remove surface contamination (Iron) until the water runs clear. Soak the BP in hot or cold water and rinse. It may take a little time for them to get used to the beet pulp. Making it a little wetter or a little dryer can help some take to it quicker, but don't give up if they turn their nose up the first few times.
If you cannot soak the hay (e.g. freezing temperatures), substitute BP for 1/3rd of the hay at a ratio of 1 part BP to 2 parts hay. In other words, if you should be feeding 15 lbs of hay, feed 10 lbs hay and 2 lbs of BP. Substituting BP for hay lowers the glycemic index of the diet, advisable if insulin levels are high. Because BP is more digestible than hays, it's also a good choice for the underweight horse. If horse is very underweight, substitute 1/3rd of the estimated hay requirement with beet pulp but do it on a pound for pound basis.
Most horses enjoy BP but ill/stressed horses can be picky. If not well accepted, try adding one of the following: peppermint extract, beet root or anise powder, sugar-free flavorings, sage, a tablespoon or so of wheat germ, or a few hay cubes. Test your horse's level of interest in these flavorings before actually making up a batch of beet pulp you may have to throw away.
Do NOT Feed -


Grain
Pelleted or senior feeds, etc. that contain grain products or molasses (read the label)
Grass of any kind (even if it looks dead)
Carrots or apples or sugar containing treats
Beet pulp with molasses
 Do Feed -


Iodized salt - 1 to 2 oz. a day (approximately 1 to 2 heaping Tablespoons). Regular iodized table salt added to the beet pulp is fine. Do not feed kelp with idoized salt.
 Magnesium 1.5 grams/day per 500 lbs body weight (only as a short term measure until hay analysis can confirm if it is actually needed or not, and how much). Can use human supplement, or get feed grade magnesium oxide from a feed mill 1/2 teaspoon magnesium oxide provides approximately 1.5 grams magnesium.
 Vitamin E 1000 IU/day per 500 lbs body weight (again, human supplement may be easiest, i.e. soft gel caps added to beet pulp)
Flax 3 oz fresh ground flax seed or use stabilized flax
 
Most_ ECIR Group _Members have added these items to the BP. Some have sifted onto wet hay. Many have found slowly adding salt will help tempt the finicky eater. Have your hay analyzed as soon as possible so that a mineral supplementation program can be started that directly matches the levels in the base diet. This is not expensive and is a vast improvement over using pre-mixed vitamin/mineral supplements. Get started with the changes noted above, and the _ECIR Group _can help you as soon as you are ready to get the hay analysis.
Please note this is only a TEMPORARY measure, not intended for long time use. The odds of this diet being adequately mineral balanced are very low. The hay only or hay and BP part won't change but depending on the sugar/starch level in your hay you may not need to soak it and mineral needs may be vastly different from the ball park figures used in the Emergency Diet, including a need to supplement some or all of the following: calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, zinc, copper, manganese, selenium and iodine.


While he is actively having an attack you need to do this. Worry about the fat and calories another day.
Few horses are going to starve themselves. Put the food out there for him and let him eat it or not. Feed small meals several times a day so it's easier on him and if he does stick his nose up at it you don't waste as much. Soaked beet pulp will spoil. Just like with a little kid being picky...Eat your broccoli or don't. No other choices.


Listen to Trinity, Loosie, Desert. If you get those xrays up see if you can get Patty Siller on here too.



Learn to read feed tags and understand what you are reading.


If you have time to soak and rinse his grass hay then do it. It will leach out some of the sugars.
Stay away from vitamin and mineral mixes with added iron. This includes salt blocks. Most hay has plenty of iron unless your training for the Kentucky Derby and even then I'd be a little cautious. The standlee pellets mostly have a good amount of iron. Your horse is young so I wouldn't sweat the standlee pellets. My IR horse is 40 so I am very careful with them.


This is a young horse. We all want to help.
4yr olds need a lot of leisurely walks in the woods. Quiet miles build a good foundation that gives you a horse that is still rideable into his 30's. 



If I had some crackerjack little grandchild there would be no reason on earth my 40 yr couldn't be saddled for an easy ride. She'd be a stinker after having her own way for the last 10 yrs but she's sound enough. Take care of him.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Please, PLEASE, please.... do NOT wait until next week. Something needs to be done TODAY. Your horse is suffering horribly if he is down.... get a vet and farrier out there right now (preferably not the same ones you had before).

WHY on earth would you wait? If the founder does not kill him, colic from the stress will unless you do something right now.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Remali said:


> Please, PLEASE, please.... do NOT wait until next week. Something needs to be done TODAY. Your horse is suffering horribly if he is down.... get a vet and farrier out there right now (preferably not the same ones you had before).
> 
> WHY on earth would you wait? If the founder does not kill him, colic from the stress will unless you do something right now.


Please read post 110. He's is now stablized pain meds on board hoofs casted and he's standing at the moment. Didn't get xrays he was to painful to stand on the blocks of wood. Vet will be back in 2 weeks to xrays,will be back tomorrow to check on him.

Here's a picture of what his bruising looked like on both fronts,not his hoof. No current pics of his hoofs didn't get any sorry. Very stressful last 24 hours pictures were my last thought.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Remali said:


> Please, PLEASE, please.... do NOT wait until next week. Something needs to be done TODAY. Your horse is suffering horribly if he is down.... get a vet and farrier out there right now (preferably not the same ones you had before).
> 
> WHY on earth would you wait? If the founder does not kill him, colic from the stress will unless you do something right now.


Post #110 says the vet is there at that time so hopefully there will be good news soon.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

natisha said:


> Post #110 says the vet is there at that time so hopefully there will be good news soon.


Posted above you with update.:wink: He'll be ok just needs alot of TLC and rehab,i'am in it for the long haul. Haven't read all the post yet but will.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Smilie said:


> You were riding him 5 weeks ago, correct? He was not in full laminitic stance, nor lying down


Yes i was riding him then,had riden him 4 days ago he wasn't to the laying down point but short of stride. Just so every one knows this horse was a spazzy mess when i got him. He improved some being turned out to pasture for the first summer. 

He's still a spaz but i just accepted it and dealt with it. Guess i don't mind a horse who's all over the trail and wanting to go fast.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

SueNH said:


> I'm going to repeat myself...
> 
> DDT - Diet
> 
> ...



Thank you sueNH i have written down the diet you have listed and he will be started on it tomorrow. For now hay only.

Hard lesson learned here,but i'am now on board here to help my horse. Have always rode them hard,but that will have to change now.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Riding a horse hard isn't the problem
Riding a horse hard that isn't for some reason up to that workload is the problem


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Thread closed


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