# 3 piece Snaffle Bit



## aimee2010 (Dec 26, 2010)

I just wanted to get some opinions on this bit, has anyone ever used one?
I was at my local horse tack shop today and I was telling them how my 2.5 year old mare who just came back from being saddle broke really hates the bit. I know she is young so that does play a part in it but I was just looking for ideas for some bits to try. We currently use a D-Ring snaffle bit and I have had her teeth looked at to make sure that was not creating any pain for her, and her teeth are good.
Thanks!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

That looks like it has a twisted mouth? 
Anyways, a lot of horses do prefer a three piece broken snaffle to a single joint. There is a thread stickies to the top of the tack and equipment thread you might find helpful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aimee2010 (Dec 26, 2010)

The two sides are twisted and the middle part has copper rollers on it.
http://www.cavalier.on.ca/index.php?option=com_oscommerce&osMod=product_info&Itemid=&catID=334_443&products_id=18775

Thank you for the info : )


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Three piece snaffle bits are good, but I far prefer a smooth French link, particularly for a young, green horse. Not that your twisted dogbone roller is a necessarily "bad" or "harsh" bit, but I wonder if you really need that much bit.


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## touchofsleep (Mar 9, 2011)

I just bought this wonder bit from a local tack shop. I told the lady who sold it to me that my horse hates bits and he will only ride in a hackamore and she said she had a mare with the same problem, but the wonder bit works great on her and doesn't seem to have any complaints. I've tried it and it has worked WONDERS! It can also be used as a snaffle bit depending on where you put the reins. It is not known for being too harsh and they love the sweet iron taste


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

The wonder bit is not a snaffle; it employs a leverage and gag action. I actually greatly dislike the so-called "wonder bit."
Also, I disagree with Bubba - textured bits are definitely more harsh than smooth bits - the ridges irritate the lips.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't think there is any subject on this forum that encourages more argument than bits.
I dont know anything about the wonder bit. The sweetiron mouth piece it has looks good. I dont know what the big rings are for. And how does a gag work and why does someone want that ?


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

JustDressageIt said:


> The wonder bit is not a snaffle; it employs a leverage and gag action. I actually greatly dislike the so-called "wonder bit."


The poster's statement was that it can be used as a snaffle, and indeed it can be. Simply unclip the reins from the bottom of the shanks and reattach at the ring. Presto change-o....two bits in one.

[/quote]Also, I disagree with Bubba - textured bits are definitely more harsh than smooth bits - the ridges irritate the lips.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

If you're riding with an ultra thin mouth or one with super raised ridges--neither of which applies to the snaffle pictured--then sure. Or if you're jerking on the reins and see-sawing the bit back and forth like some sort of backwards ******* wannabe. Or if you've got a horse with extremely sensitive lips (I was in for a rude awakening one day when I managed to raw up a horse's mouth--for the first and only time--using a fat smooth snaffle and riding with light hands under normal conditions....turns out she was just uber-sensitive). But all of those are sort of extenuating circumstances. What's that old saying about the bit being only as harsh as the hands? :think:

And tiny, let me refer you to a segment from my epic (and controversial) bitting thread:

_Gag bits (called elevator bits in the English world) seem to have a negative connotation, perhaps because their name conjures up images of a horse spitting and choking on a too-tight mouthpiece. In fact, when used correctly, gag bits can be quite mild. I personally like them (and Wonder/Half-Wonder bits in particular) for teaching collection, flexion, and lateral movement to a green horse moving out of a snaffle. Gag bits are popular in the training pen, barrel racing and in gaited horse communities.

Physically, they are composed of the mouthpiece (often a chain or snaffle mouth), shanks of varying lengths, and a curb. What sets them apart from ordinary curb bits is that the mouthpiece is not fixed in place—it is free to move and slide about. This is the “gag action.” When pressure is applied via the reins, the bit rotates and the mouthpiece slides around the ring. When the curb has tightened as much as it can and/or the mouthpiece reaches the end of its track, increasing pressure is applied from the mouthpiece. Poll pressure is also applied as the curb mouthpiece slides and the bridle effectively shortens. This gag action gives the horse plenty of warning from the time the rider picks up the reins to the time harsh pressure is applied. It also allows for independent movement of the shanks, meaning you can “pick up” one side of the horses head without affecting the other—great for lateral movement._

I'm not all that high on Wonder bits for everyday riding, and certainly not for green horses all the time. I think they're a temporary learning tool. They help to teach bend/flex/collection, but you can really leverage a horse's head down with them, what with all that shank length you've got. Quite a bit of poll pressure, curb, and corner-of-the-mouth-pulling-up effect when you really crank on the reins, so they're not for inexperienced riders. And I fault the full Wonders (and the newer half Wonders that Reinsman makes, as opposed to their older ones) for having that unfortunate round bulge on the front of the gag, which inhibits smooth sliding of the mouthpiece. Too much gag, and too hard to access (this makes sense in my head but I have a feeling I'm not coming across very clearly right now). That, and the single-jointed "snaffle" mouthpiece has all of its inherent issues. But the Wonder is an all-right sort of bit, to summarize.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

My gelding likes this bit:










Korsteel Sweet Iron French Link Snaffle Bit - Statelinetack.com

$16 french link snaffle, sweet iron and reasonably thick parts to spread the pressure.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

^^ This bit! That is the type I was going to suggest. A twisted bit is a bit much for a young horse just beginning saddle training. Twisted bits can be rough on a horse's mouth if you have too much contact or in situations where you need to correct the horse.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

With so many opinions on bits, I may as well add mine. I agree that any bit is only as harsh as the hands that use it. However, a twisted bit is harsher than a smooth bit. The twists create more contact points smaller in area. Where a smooth bit speads the contact over one large area.

A twisted bit is good to go with for a short time to help with training when a horse resists a smooth bit. I would not use it as an everyday bit. It can cause the mouth to become hard. I would also avoid large bits like the eggbutt snaffle because it allows the horse to resist the bit easier.

The order of bits I use when training a horse:
Smooth, single joint, loose ring snaffle - starting
Smooth, single joint, fixed ring snaffle - helps shoulder conrol
Smooth, single joint, curb w/ short shanks - helps refine stopping
smooth, double joint, curb w/ short shanks possibly with a roller - helps refine turning

The last one is the one I keep using. I've never really 'finished' a horse. They all have new things to learn. We don't show or plan to. For trail riding that bit works. Our horses seem to like the last bit anyway.

IMO, a double joint allows more relief for the tongue and allows less pressure on the sides of the mouth with the joints being apart. As your horse learns and improves, you want to be changing your bit to allow more relief in the mouth. If the horse digresses, you can go back to a previous bit to correct.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I use oval mouth bit (Dover Saddlery | JP Korsteel Oval Mouth Copper Loose Ring Snaffle Bit . just a different brand). But I like the one bsms posted as well.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Bubba, bits don't each collection... But we've argued enough about bits and training in the past that I won't argue more here as we've reached great impasses in the past. My advice can be found in a sticky at the top of the equipment section in a sticky labeled "Snaffle and english-type bits".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## touchofsleep (Mar 9, 2011)

JustDressageIt said:


> The wonder bit is not a snaffle; it employs a leverage and gag action. I actually greatly dislike the so-called "wonder bit."
> Also, I disagree with Bubba - textured bits are definitely more harsh than smooth bits - the ridges irritate the lips.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I didn't say it was a snaffle. I said it was a wonder bit aka gag bit. It can be used as a snaffle depending on where you put the reins


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

JustDressageIt said:


> Bubba, bits don't each collection...


No, but they may help to _teach_ (;-)) it via engaging the horse's headset. You don't "pull" or "force" them into frame, but it can be extremely useful and give a clear suggestion that they might flex at the poll. They reach forward, dip, and break softly, so that you can then drive the rest of the horse forward into that carriage. Maybe it's a shortcut, and maybe it's "cheating," but it's effective and humane, and it creates a good and long-lasting result, and those points are really all I care about.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I won't argue, once again, with Bubba. Suffice it to say I wouldn't have that bit within twenty yards of my tack room.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Tag-teaming and adding such valuable points to the conversation again, I see.

Care to share with the class _why_ you wouldn't allow someone to carry carry that bit down the road past your barn? Maybe we can all learn something....


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Ignoring the building bit debate, I have to say, I am a big fan of the bit I was riding a schoolie in. She was a youngster, and in a bit just like the one I have posted, except a bit wider in the mouth piece.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I've always wanted to try a Fulmer, but I've yet to see one in the fle--er, metal. I'm not a fan of full cheeks, but does the loose ring part nicely substitute for the lack of mobility in a normal FC? So you sorta get the best of both worlds, with lots of "feel?"


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I'd also like to hear the "whys" as to what is different from bubba's opinion. The nay-saying without giving information (read opinions or facts) really doesn't do any good other then making it look like you are deliberating going out of your way to attack bubba. Which IMO is pretty sad as she seems pretty knowledgeable. Just becuase someone has a differing view on something does _not_ make them wrong. It just means they have a different view.


OP I have no advice on the bit thing.  Sorry.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Tag-teaming? Please. Obviously Allison and I have very similar tastes in bits, but we certainly are NOT tag-teaming - SHE is adding HER views to this thread as an individual. 
Bubba, collection is NEVER ever EVER about the horse's head - the head is the "hood ornament" to the horse's body. The horse must accept the bit, and must be taught to work INTO the bit, but the frame and "headset" (I HATE that word) comes from the horse working from the hind end and rounding through the body. The head falls into the right place. The head is not hauled into the right place, and a bit is nothing more than a very slight communication tool - NOT for "headset." Wait. Not for a correct headset - though a lot of people use a bit to achieve a fake headset. 
NdAppy, maybe our posts would make more sense if you researched our and Bubba's posting history. 

I love the fulmer bit. It adds the loose-ring aspect (horse not bracing due to the ring sliding) to the lateral-pressure full cheek.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I would substitute it for an eggbutt or a normal loose ring after a while, I think that the full cheek is good for a youngster tho. It reaffirms the "this rein means go this way" with a touch of pressure on the other side of the face. The loose ring helps a young horse to learn to not lean on the bit for support. All in all, I wouldn't keep it on an educated horse myself, unless it was particularly partial to it, but I would use it on a youngster every time.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

> Bubba, collection is NEVER ever EVER about the horse's head - the head is the "hood ornament" to the horse's body. The horse must accept the bit, and must be taught to work INTO the bit, but the frame and "headset" (I HATE that word) comes from the horse working from the hind end and rounding through the body. The head falls into the right place. The head is not hauled into the right place, and a bit is nothing more than a very slight communication tool - NOT for "headset." Wait. Not for a correct headset - though a lot of people use a bit to achieve a fake headset.




And how does that, in any way, contradict anything I said in my post?
You drive the horse's hind end foward with impulsion and suggest that the horse break lightly at the poll, rather than allowing him to fling his head skyward in a ewed position and invert (I've seen plenty of horses driving "properly" with the rear, reaching far up underneath themselves and everything, but flopping their front ends and heads all over the place, and so they definitely aren't collected). Asking/suggesting--not forcing--the horse to flex into you helps to hold the body together in a cohesive, athletic unit.

Tell me, have you ever used a martingale while training? What about side reins? Training fork? And sort of curb/leverage/gag/draw/elevator bit?


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

I agree with AF, I wouldn't allow someone to board their horse with me that used that kind of bit. It would not be allowed on a horse on my property. Twisted wire bits, or twist bits of any kind, are, IMO/IME, a lazy quick "fix" and potentially inhumane. I put "fix" in quotes because they don't really fix anything. They make the horse uncomfortable with contact, which makes them suck back off the bit, creating false collection and a false sense of lightness in the front end.

To achive consistent lightness in the front end and the self carraige that is sought after in any discipline, the horse has to build proper muscle along the topline and haunches. The horse also has to learn to engage the back, haunch, and stiffle/hock so the weight can be carried on the rear. Once the horse is properly moving from behind he will find his own "spot" with the right rein length and contact. Then the rider can encourage the horse to carry his head at the level and with whatever rein length is appropriate for the work he's doing.

Does a bit accomplish any of this? No. However, the right bit for the horse will make things easier. The horse should like the shape of the mouth piece whether it be single joint, double, mullen, or ported. The thickness of the mouthpiece should be appropriate for the horse (some prefer thicker, some thinner). The action of the bit for training should always be a snaffle, no gags or leverage bits. Once the young western horse has attained self carraige and has the basics of neck reining down, then the rider/trainer can consider moving on toward the bit the horse will end up in.

Just because a "trainer" recommends it or we see an upper level rider doing it, does not make it correct. And that goes for any piece of equipment, training method, or riding style.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bubba13 said:


> No, but they may help to _teach_ (;-)) it via engaging the horse's headset. You don't "pull" or "force" them into frame, but it can be extremely useful and give a clear suggestion that they might flex at the poll. They reach forward, dip, and break softly, so that you can then drive the rest of the horse forward into that carriage. Maybe it's a shortcut, and maybe it's "cheating," but it's effective and humane, and it creates a good and long-lasting result, and those points are really all I care about.


Am I understand that right you are talking about using a bit to force horse into "headset"? If so using a bit to make headset does not create long-lasting (much less good) result. It creates a horse, which moves it's body (and uses its muscles) incorrectly. With all not-so-good consequences of it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> Am I understand that right you are talking about using a bit to force horse into "headset"? If so using a bit to make headset does not create long-lasting (much less good) result. It creates a horse, which moves it's body (and uses its muscles) incorrectly. With all not-so-good consequences of it.


The way I read it, she is arguing that you can use the bit to demonstrate to the horse what happens when he collects, and hopefully teach him that moving that way is more comfortable than not. I've done that with Mia with some small success while bitless.

I've seen western trainers use a half-halt (I think that is the term) on a strung out horse to get the horse to feel how much more comfortable it is to collect some than to put all the weight on the front.

Also, I had my second horse riding lesson last week. She is trying to get me to settle back into the saddle, and she had me trot a number of 360s. Each circle, I'd start with my normal forward position, and halfway thru lean back (at least, that is what it felt like to me) and get my seat pockets into the saddle. The moment I did, I could feel the horse switch and engage his rear legs. The circle immediately became more coordinated, tighter, better balanced, etc.

My instructor's point was that western riders approach collection differently than some English riders do. Collection is a momentary thing done for specific reasons, not the goal of all riding, and you want the horse to learn for himself how he can feel better turning and maneuvering with some collection. The same is true when stopping - by settling back first (before any other cue), the horse shifts its weight and starts to stop from the rear rather than all forward.

I don't think Bubba13 is arguing to force an artificial headset, but to train the horse by short corrections to use an appropriate amount of collection for what he is doing at the time. The point my instructor made on my lesson #2 was that the horse remains free to look where he needs to and sets his own head, but you teach him that some phases of riding feel better with collection than on the front legs. The bit corrections are a training aid, not a permanent brute force solution.

Of course, if I've misunderstood Bubba13, I'm sure she'll clarify.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

You can't teach a horse to go on the bit very well when the bit is causing him pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

As to your question, Bubba, I've used all of them - and guess what they did? Encouraged a "headset" but nothing else. Due to my past experiences, I feel very strongly about working as gadget-free as possible.
For the record, your horse cannot be working round and have its head up - the head falls into place when the body is correct.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> Bubba, *collection is NEVER ever EVER about the horse's head* - the head is the "hood ornament" to the horse's body. The horse must accept the bit, and must be taught to work INTO the bit, but the frame and "headset" (I HATE that word) comes from the horse working from the hind end and rounding through the body. The head falls into the right place. The head is not hauled into the right place, and a bit is nothing more than a very slight communication tool - NOT for "headset." Wait. Not for a correct headset - though a lot of people use a bit to achieve a fake headset.


Bolding mine. It deserves repeating, over and over and over again.

Collection comes from the back to the front. Never from the front to the back.


I think what type of bit works best for a horse depends greatly on the shape of the horses mouth. Some horses love a single broken mouth piece (snaffle), some like a solid bar, some like two breaks.
I have one that goes best in a full cheek snaffle. One that goes best in a loose ring french link and one I am not sure about yet.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bsms said:


> I don't think Bubba13 is arguing to force an artificial headset, but to train the horse by short corrections to use an appropriate amount of collection for what he is doing at the time.


You don't train a horse to go collected by "corrections by the bit" (and I do understand you just interpret bubba's words as well as me, very well can be that both of us understanding them wrong  ). And the bit is the just a little thing in the whole training process for that. Plus horse will not feel comfortable (or be able to hold itself) anyway until you build all muscles required for the horse to be able to do it (and it requires lots of time and correct riding). I think JDI and AB already said it perfectly about the headset etc.


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## Henk Plompen (Apr 18, 2011)

Maybe my experience is not a direct answer to your question, maybe it is.

First of all, I am riding in Europe, and we are used to riding with snaffle bits.
I think a double broken snaffle bit cith cupper pieces are the best for everyday use.

Until a few months ago, I thought that you could ride every horse with a snaffle bit.

But... until then I rode a Criollo that was quite energetic, but also very sensitive.

I also got a Highlander recently, same colour, same height, but maybe a bit less sensitive.
He just walks over me, and if I hit him (!) he is not impressed; he basically just wants to sit on my lap;


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## Henk Plompen (Apr 18, 2011)

It is always amusing to read discussions about bits.

First of all I would like to say that I don’t think it’s about the bit.

On the other hand, I would like to share my experience.
My first own horse was a Criollo. When I bought him, he came with an iron rigid bit with shanks. They told me you can’t ride a Criollo with a snaffle bit.
I laughed, I used a snaffle bit from the beginning. He was very energetic, but also very sensitive and always ‘with me’. I can even collect him with a normal halter – not even a rope halter. I believe that if the horse is with you, the tack does not matter.

But then I bought a Highlander. Same height, same colour (‘gris souris’ – I don’t know the English name), but maybe one brain cell less. I don’t want to start a racial discussion here, but it seemed my latino was a lot brighter than my Scotsman.
Apart from being simply stiff, he did not understand the concept of working: al he knew was turning left and right.

So I began with ground work. He liked it, because he got cuddles. But he also walked over me. Stepped on my toes – I wear safety boots now with him. I had to hit him hard (!) to stop him walking over me. And when I hit him, he looked at me and says ‘Hello, what’s up’?
In short: he has a very *high pain threshold*. When I realized this, I switched to a western bit – which I never liked before. After two or three hacks, he collects, goes sideways,… he works, and he likes it!
It is too early now, but I believe that when he is a bit more experienced, I can go back to a snaffle bit, and – I hope – one day even to a simple halter!


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

kitten_Val said:


> Am I understand that right you are talking about using a bit to force horse into "headset"? If so using a bit to make headset does not create long-lasting (much less good) result. It creates a horse, which moves it's body (and uses its muscles) incorrectly. With all not-so-good consequences of it.


No, not forcing. Suggesting, without harshness. It's no differnent than temporarily bitting a horse back (lightly), or using side reins, or martingales, or anything else. It may be a gadget and a shortcut, but it's not inhumane, and the results are good enough. Of course it must be enhanced and perfected with _right riding_ and _proper training_, and you naturally can't rely solely on the bit and magically think that if the head drops down, the rest of the body will follow suit and coil up. But it helps get the message across. I used to do a short round-penning lesson with the horse bitted back in a snaffle, then ride with the snaffle and a martingale once, then switch to a gag for a few rides, and then transition, more or less permanently, to a regular curb. The horse stayed soft in the mouth, broke at the poll, and had impulsion from behind from leg and seat cues.



bsms said:


> The way I read it, she is arguing that you can use the bit to demonstrate to the horse what happens when he collects, and hopefully teach him that moving that way is more comfortable than not. I've done that with Mia with some small success while bitless.
> 
> I've seen western trainers use a half-halt (I think that is the term) on a strung out horse to get the horse to feel how much more comfortable it is to collect some than to put all the weight on the front.
> 
> ...


Nope, you hit it pretty well on the head. Thanks. :wink:



JustDressageIt said:


> You can't teach a horse to go on the bit very well when the bit is causing him pain.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then I guess it's best not to cause pain, huh? Sorta "Humane Horsemanship 101."



JustDressageIt said:


> As to your question, Bubba, I've used all of them - and guess what they did? Encouraged a "headset" but nothing else. Due to my past experiences, I feel very strongly about working as gadget-free as possible.
> For the record, your horse cannot be working round and have its head up - the head falls into place when the body is correct.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But a horse can have plenty of drive from the _hindquarters_ but still have a front end (head/neck/legs) flopping all over the place. First example off the top of my head--barrel horses in the alley. They're rearing and flinging their heads high in the air, and their front legs are flailing, but they're coiled and driving from the hind end with all of their power and athleticism. Not exactly the "proper working" goal of any discipline.

And if you aren't entirely "gadget free," then it's rather hypocritical. A gag bit is absolutely no different than a martingale or anything else, but at least it provides the option for instant relief, unlike some other gizmos.



kitten_Val said:


> You don't train a horse to go collected by "corrections by the bit" (and I do understand you just interpret bubba's words as well as me, very well can be that both of us understanding them wrong  ). And the bit is the just a little thing in the whole training process for that. Plus horse will not feel comfortable (or be able to hold itself) anyway until you build all muscles required for the horse to be able to do it (and it requires lots of time and correct riding). I think JDI and AB already said it perfectly about the headset etc.


I'm not suggesting that you hold the horse down, or force him into rolkur, or anything like that. Just say, "hey, how 'bout you dip your nose a little bit while you round your back and reach forward? great! thanks! here's a release for your efforts!" And so on.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bubba13 said:


> It's no differnent than temporarily bitting a horse back (lightly), or using side reins, or martingales, or anything else. It may be a gadget and a shortcut, but it's not inhumane, and the results are good enough.


bubba, I'm sorry to say that (and not trying to offend you), but you sound like you've never seen a good trainer "in motion". I'm speaking here just from my own experience. My current trainer when she asked me if she can get on my horse to try (which was "hopeless and useless" according to several trainers, VERY heavy on forehand, eta. eta. eta.) was able to actually bring her on bit in matter of 10 mins or so. Just because she knows how to ride and how to ask. Without special bits, side reins, martingales or any other gimmicks. That was absolutely _awesome_ to watch and I couldn't believe it could be done. But it definitely can. 

If you look just for the "good enough" result - well, one can always go for it (and I gonna argue "humanity" of certain gadgets here). If you look for the proper training, which will be there for years, then gadgets is NOT a way to go, neither the quick fix is.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> You don't train a horse to go collected by "corrections by the bit"...Plus horse will not feel comfortable (or be able to hold itself) anyway until you build all muscles required for the horse to be able to do it (and it requires lots of time and correct riding)...


I'm going to do some theorizing here, so please bear with me. 2.5 years of riding on my own & two lessons in western riding doesn't make me much of an authority, no matter how many books I've read...but most forums members aren't reticent in offering corrections, so here goes:

The bit is one form of correction, just as your legs driving him forward are a correction. When your horse gets strung out in front, no amount of driving him forward will help - he needs to settle back a bit, pardon the pun. Something that says keep going forward, but not all on the front end. When I did that bitless with Mia, I could feel her moving better - not collected like a dressage horse, but not strung out - and she could feel it. With regular practice, it might be possible to get her to trot at a good pace without just pulling from the front because she wants to, not because I'm trying to make her do so.

For a lot of western riding, collection is a part time thing. For fast movement, collection is counter-productive. For turns and stops, it helps. The horse needs to be free to adjust his head as required to focus where he needs, which may be near vertical or not. The high degree of collection seen in dressage is neither needed nor desired. If you need to get out in front to turn a cow, you need a sprint followed by a collected turn. A barrel racer (53 year old guy - I've never done it) would sprint, then turn. The turn needs collection, the sprint does not.

I can do a one-leg squat one time with my current fitness. If I had to do 100, I'd end in the hospital. Likewise, a horse of normal fitness can move with collection in turns and stops without a lot of physical training. It is mental - once they know how and why (because it feels better), they can do it to the extent needed.

For the purposes of much western riding, collection is sufficient if the horse doesn't get strung out on the front end while going straight, and shifts some weight to the rear in turns and stops. And it is important that the horse learns to do that because it works better for him, rather than because you are giving him multiple cues to keep him there. Just what I think, based on my meager experience...


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

My horse loves her KK training snaffle!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bsms, I remember starting a thread while back asking our western riders/trainers here how they deal with riding from driving from behind, collection, etc. Because I was curious how you can train that with the loose rein western riders ride. And the answer was they start the horse with the contact. And when the foundation is there they move to the loose reins, shanked bits, etc. Which perfectly makes sense to me. You still want that basic foundation on any horse (whether english or western), and the foundation will not come from using gadgets or corrections by the bit.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Bubba, you are again missing my point. A horse most certainly can drive from behing and be flopping around in front - that horse is NOT collected or in a frame. Driving from the hind is a piece of the puzzle - being round is the goal. 
If you re-read my statement, you'll see I said I HAVE used them in the past. Now I realize they're lazy shortcuts. 
You and I have gotten into this before and you're well aware of my views and my thoughts. I strongly suggest you study under a real dressage trainer to be able to understand collection and lightness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> ...Because I was curious how you can train that with the loose rein western riders ride. And the answer was they start the horse with the contact. And when the foundation is there they move to the loose reins, shanked bits, etc. Which perfectly makes sense to me. You still want that basic foundation on any horse (whether english or western), and the foundation will not come from using gadgets or corrections by the bit.


Define "corrections by the bit". Riding with contact *is* correcting the horse with the bit. The instructor I've taken my whopping two lessons from refuses to ride anymore with any bit other than a simple snaffle. However, she doesn't teach riding with constant contact either. If the horse is starting to get strung out, you apply enough pressure with the calf to keep it moving at a trot, but take out the slack and just a finger more with the reins. Maintain that, and when the horse gives a little at the poll and comes back a little - without changing speed - you release the reins. That isn't dressage level collection, nor is that wanted. And it is a correction with the bit to achieve the goal, which isn't a headset but a more balanced, 'collected' motion.

Much of the collection needed in western riding is in turns. One book I've read suggests sometimes asking your horse to turn while backing up, since his weight is already on the rear while backing, and it gets him used to the feel of turning while using his hind legs. The trainer who 'broke' our mare Lilly and worked with Trooper likes her stops to finish with a few steps back, in part because she believes it sets up in their mind that a stop will use the hind end.

During the 360s I did, the instructor's point was that I couldn't expect my horse to use his hind end in the turns if I kept all my weight on his front, and by settling back I encouraged him to engage with his rear legs - and it certainly worked, although I don't know how much is a natural reaction and how much is a learned cue.

A lot of western riding seems to involve no contact. When I ride Mia bitless with slack in the rein, she sure isn't 'on the bit' - but she often walks and trots just fine. Remember, my goal isn't a dressage level of collection. If she gets strung out, she needs correction. You can see a lot of endurance racers that trot a LOT of miles without being collected at dressage levels, and they do just fine. Mia and Trooper will both trot comfortably for longer than I can stand without 'collection'. It is a matter of degree. 

For turns and stops, collection is good for western riding too. But those are temporary states, and you can train the horse to collect for those without being 'on the bit' full time. So you can use the bit as a training aid to teach the horse how to carry himself more efficiently when needed.

Note: I was going to add a picture of an endurance horse trotting, but while looking for a picture I came across this article about an endurance horse who died in 2009...good read:

http://enduranceridestuff.com/blog/2009/03/farewell-beautiful-chestnut-gelding-dream-weaver/


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bsms said:


> Define "corrections by the bit".http://enduranceridestuff.com/blog/2009/03/farewell-beautiful-chestnut-gelding-dream-weaver/


A good example would be when you use a bit only to make horse to drop the head down. I'd think shanked bit would be perfect for this kind of "correction" (and in fact I've seen people doing it, moreover one western "trainer" told me it's a normal practice to teach the horse to come from "forehand"). But this "correction" won't make horse drive from behind, neither it'll make it travel round.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

bsms, while you 'can' use the bit for correcting frame etc, it is a shortcut, and it will lead to horses that are not correctly using themselves. Collection comes from behind, and anything you do with the from that isn't just 'accepting the horse offered contact' is not correct. Your hands should just accept the energy that the horse gives you. Your legs and seat should ask the horse to come up and forward into roundness and correct overall frame.

I think the term 'on the bit' is a bit of a confusion - until you understand it completely, it is a logical thing to assume the bit has a lot to do with it.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I don't ride 'western' - I.e. I ride in a snaffle, with contact, and in an Australian Stock Saddle. but I do work cattle competitively, and also do working stock horse classes which involve manouvers similar to those seen in reining, as well as haunch turns, which are like a rollback but without stopping beforehand. So i'm gonna jump on in here :]




> For a lot of western riding, collection is a part time thing. For fast movement, collection is counter-productive. For turns and stops, it helps. The horse needs to be free to adjust his head as required to focus where he needs, which may be near vertical or not. The high degree of collection seen in dressage is neither needed nor desired. If you need to get out in front to turn a cow, you need a sprint followed by a collected turn. A barrel racer (53 year old guy - I've never done it) would sprint, then turn. The turn needs collection, the sprint does not.


I disagree with this. I won't use the term collection, because I do agree that I don't want true collection as dressage riders do - What I want is *engagement*. Engagament where the hind end is underneath the horse, taking more of the weight, the front end is lighter and freed up, and the head is in it's most comfortable and efficient position for helping the horse balance through it's manouvers. Lots of people forget that the head/neck are a major part of the horse balance. I only minorly influence the head as I want the horse to be able to put it where he needs it at that moment in time.

Now, back to my point - I 100% want engagement in my gallop/sprint/rundown, whatever you want to call it. Why? Because when you are working cattle, you need to be ready to turn, check, accelerate, at any split second. You don't have time to go from a strung out gallop, to a more engaged gallop, before a turn or a stop. I need my horse primed to turn or stop immediately - therefore it is easier if we maintain engagement the entire time.

When i'm in the camp, cutting a cow before a campdraft, even when I am galloping to the other side of the yard to block my cow - I have my horses body shaped toward the cow, prepared to turn. I have my horses rear end engaged, and attention on the cow, ready to turn.

Out on the course, I have my horse engaged and firmly between my rein and leg so we are ready to check up, or accelerate, or even stop, at ANY time. I was just at our State campdrafting championships weekend just gone. One fellows cow took off across the arena, him in hot pursuit. He didn't keep his horse engaged and attentive, he just tore after it. The cow headed for the fence - his horse was too strung out to stop quick enough, and they hit the fence, catapulting him over it and the horse falling down. Eep!




> Much of the collection needed in western riding is in turns. One book I've read suggests sometimes asking your horse to turn while backing up, since his weight is already on the rear while backing, and it gets him used to the feel of turning while using his hind legs. The trainer who 'broke' our mare Lilly and worked with Trooper likes her stops to finish with a few steps back, in part because she believes it sets up in their mind that a stop will use the hind end.


Another thing I disagree with in here, even though many trainers do it. Backing up and turning out of it. Ack! In my disciplines we work so hard to keep forward momentum through turns. All turns should be forward movements. You lose forward momentum, the cow gets away. Thankfully in working stock horse classes we don't have to back up before rollbacks. I have to say I rarely see rollbacks in reining that rival some of the rollbacks we see done here in our stock horse classes.

Anyway - The bit for me is about direction, it's about enforcing shape through the body, and it helps me help my horse keep his front end light when galloping. It isn't about the head, like others have said.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> A good example would be when you use a bit only to make horse to drop the head down...But this "correction" won't make horse drive from behind, neither it'll make it travel round.





Chiilaa said:


> bsms, while you 'can' use the bit for correcting frame etc, it is a shortcut, and it will lead to horses that are not correctly using themselves. Collection comes from behind, and anything you do with the from that isn't just 'accepting the horse offered contact' is not correct...Your legs and seat should ask the horse to come up and forward into roundness and correct overall frame...


I can only go on what the trainer who broke Lilly and teaches my daughter & the instructor I started taking lessons from a few weeks ago teach - and both teach that when the horse is getting strung out on the forehand, you should squeeze just enough with your calves to tell the horse to maintain speed while applying light pressure to the bit (or halter, in Mia's case) until the horse yields a bit, slowing the front end down while maintaining speed with the rear - then release pressure on the bit.

Neither one, nor any book I've read, says to just put the head somewhere.

In the turns last week, I didn't adjust the reins at all. I just went from a forward balance to rear, and the horse responded by shifting more of his weight to the rear and bringing it into use turning the circle.

This approach probably wouldn't ever get dressage level collection, but that isn't the goal. The horse doesn't need to be rounded all the time to trot well for distances. For bursts of speed, collection is harmful. For stops and turns, it is helpful - but that doesn't require the constant collection some riders want.

Thus, using the bit to say, "Slow down your front end a bit" isn't wrong, or a shortcut, any more than a pulse of your calves to ask for a bit more speed is wrong or temporary. And once the horse learns for himself that a collected turn feels better, he can do it without your asking for it. Just settle back and enjoy!

I neither cut cattle nor rein, but I've read that in reining, the rider tells the horse exactly what to do, while in cutting, the rider teaches the horse to cut cattle, and then goes along for the ride. I will say I was loaned a horse on a ranch 30 years ago because the darn horse would work cattle about as well with an empty saddle as with a good rider...it was like riding a Border Collie. Different equitation leading to different training approaches. Neither wrong, but both can work for their intended purpose.

BTW: Here is the picture form the link I posted earlier. Notice the experienced endurance horse trotting...and slack halter without a bit, and head set.










Notice my daughter in an early lesson on posting on Trooper (yes, she is pulling on the rein when she shouldn't)...










Neither horse is trotting collected with a headset, but both could/can maintain the trot like that easily...which is all that they need to do. But if needed, you can use the bit or halter to remind the horse not to put so much weight on the front. A correction, to an acceptable degree of collection, if you will.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

wild_spot said:


> ...I disagree with this. I won't use the term collection, because I do agree that I don't want true collection as dressage riders do - What I want is *engagement*...


Thank you. That is a better word for the desired outcome. As for the rest...I've spent 2.5 years riding Mia without lessons, and had a total of two lessons in riding. I'm not going to argue the effectiveness of training techniques because I don't know. I offer them as examples that a good western rider wants the hind end used during stops and turns rather than relying on the front end alone. How to achieve that? I'm learning...

And a sprint in working cattle is different than a sprint in a race, but neither one can be done if collected in the dressage sense of the word - the horse wouldn't travel fast enough. Engaged is a better word to use.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

What you are describing with the 'push' from the legs and the 'stop' from the front sounds like a half halt. This shouldn't be ridden with a 'kick and a yank' as someone else referred to it on this forum (it was either Anebel or Spyder). Even a half halt should come from the seat. 

Also, there is a huge difference between the two photos. In the first, the horse is working forward from it's hind end. It is light on the front as a result of this. In the second, the horse is dragging itself around with it's front legs, and it's back legs are just following along. That is what people refer to when they say heavy on the forehand, or strung out behind, or not working through.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Back to the OP's original question....(going to gracefully stay out of the bit debate lol) I ride a lot of my youngsters in a 3 pc snaffle. My favorite is a Myler western dee. Here's a pic of the level 1 bit.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ I'll second that. I have one in that exact bit, the other in that mouthpiece with loose ring cheeks. Fantastic bit.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

wild_spot said:


> ^ I'll second that. I have one in that exact bit, the other in that mouthpiece with loose ring cheeks. Fantastic bit.


I'm a big fan of Myler. I have several, I ride my older horses in their shanked bits too. They have a major selection to choose from. I met Dale Myler @ an expo years ago and talked mechanics with him & his ideals and thought put into making them really impressed me. I have yet to buy one of their bits I was unhappy with.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Chiilaa said:


> ...In the second, the horse is dragging itself around with it's front legs, and it's back legs are just following along. That is what people refer to when they say heavy on the forehand, or strung out behind, or not working through.


A horse at a slow jog has no reason to to use much power from the rear. It could be trained to do so even when moving slow, but why? Trust me...if Trooper needs to accelerate, he will without any difficulty. And it will be powered from the rear.

A slightly faster pace below. I don't have any picture of him moving at a fast trot, cantering or making a sharp turn.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The hindquarters can provide power to move or to support weight. At a rest, they may use 5% power to support weight. As the horse moves accelerates, more power is used for the acceleration. If the horse collects - supports weight with the rear - then that power is not available for acceleration. In some sports, collection is highly desired so a horse is trained to collect while moving fairly slow - but that is power that isn't available for acceleration or higher speed. To get it, the horse has to lose collection, extend and build speed. In a flat  race, most power goes for top speed. That is why racehorses aren't racing collected. Engaged? Yes, but not collected.

At a fast trot, Mia (my other horse) regularly gets strung out. She'll have most of her weight on the front and her balance sucks. That is why I started using half halts. I read about them, it seemed a good idea, and it mostly works. If I don't do it in time, I'll end up having to bring her to a complete stop and try again. In a half halt, the bit aids collection. Not by itself, but as part of the package.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

kitten_Val said:


> bubba, I'm sorry to say that (and not trying to offend you), but you sound like you've never seen a good trainer "in motion".


That is true enough. I've worked with/for, ridden with, and watched multiple trainers (in the disciplines of Country English Pleasure, Saddleseat, HUS, trail riding, general colt breaking, barrel racing, HUS, and dressage), but no one who I would truly consider a "good trainer," in the Tom Dorrance sense. Sure, they can ride and make a horse do stuff. So can I; they're just varying degrees of more talented and experienced than me (or some of them are, anyway, and all have big followings, accredidation through reputatable associations, loads of show ring success, or some combination of the three). But they've all used "gadgets" to some extent, most of them using a similar protocol to the one I outlined. Not saying it's right. Just saying that these fairly "big name" people do it, and have success, too.



> I'm speaking here just from my own experience. My current trainer when she asked me if she can get on my horse to try (which was "hopeless and useless" according to several trainers, VERY heavy on forehand, eta. eta. eta.) was able to actually bring her on bit in matter of 10 mins or so. Just because she knows how to ride and how to ask. Without special bits, side reins, martingales or any other gimmicks. That was absolutely _awesome_ to watch and I couldn't believe it could be done. But it definitely can.


Would you agree that "being on the bit" is a little different from true full body collection, though? Because otherwise, your experience completely contradicts what everyone else is saying--namely, that collection takes months of training and building proper muscles and laying an increasing foundation. I've got an old rope horse whose mouth was ruined and brain was fried through bad riding, but he'll reach foward and take the bit, and he'll really listen to cues and stay in my hand, while the whole time he's strung out like the dickens with his hind legs pedaling in one direction, his front legs in another, and his neck ewed. But he's on the bit (at least in my interpretation of the term) and doing the best he knows how all the same.



> If you look just for the "good enough" result - well, one can always go for it (and I gonna argue "humanity" of certain gadgets here). If you look for the proper training, which will be there for years, then gadgets is NOT a way to go, neither the quick fix is.


This may very well be true, but at the same time, I've yet to see the "bad way" fail when it was implemented by a good rider and brushed up occasionally. Conversely, a single day of bad riding can wreck even the best-trained horse.

Of course, no matter what training "style" is used, there is no need or excuse to ever resort to inhumane measures.



bsms said:


> The bit is one form of correction, just as your legs driving him forward are a correction. When your horse gets strung out in front, no amount of driving him forward will help - he needs to settle back a bit, pardon the pun. Something that says keep going forward, but not all on the front end. When I did that bitless with Mia, I could feel her moving better - not collected like a dressage horse, but not strung out - and she could feel it. With regular practice, it might be possible to get her to trot at a good pace without just pulling from the front because she wants to, not because I'm trying to make her do so.


This has been my experience.



> For a lot of western riding, collection is a part time thing. For fast movement, collection is counter-productive. For turns and stops, it helps. The horse needs to be free to adjust his head as required to focus where he needs, which may be near vertical or not. The high degree of collection seen in dressage is neither needed nor desired. If you need to get out in front to turn a cow, you need a sprint followed by a collected turn. A barrel racer (53 year old guy - I've never done it) would sprint, then turn. The turn needs collection, the sprint does not.


And this as well.



kitten_Val said:


> bsms, I remember starting a thread while back asking our western riders/trainers here how they deal with riding from driving from behind, collection, etc. Because I was curious how you can train that with the loose rein western riders ride. And the answer was they start the horse with the contact. And when the foundation is there they move to the loose reins, shanked bits, etc. Which perfectly makes sense to me. You still want that basic foundation on any horse (whether english or western), and the foundation will not come from using gadgets or corrections by the bit.


It doesn't have to, but at the same time, it _can_. The bits used are absolutely no different than the side-reins (or whatever) used by many English trainers. They aren't abusive (at least in good hands) and they don't "force" a horse to do anything. A bit like a gag requires only very light touches on the reins to convince a horse to break at the poll--or do any other manuever--and it's not because it's a harsh bit. It's because the architecture of the bit is designed to allow for subtlety of commands. That's all. I can ride a horse with much less pressure both on my reins _and on the mouth_, where it counts, using a gag than using a snaffle. So how is that an abusive, or even really "gadgety," thing?



JustDressageIt said:


> Bubba, you are again missing my point. A horse most certainly can drive from behing and be flopping around in front - that horse is NOT collected or in a frame. Driving from the hind is a piece of the puzzle - being round is the goal.


And my previous post agreed with that statement....



> If you re-read my statement, you'll see I said I HAVE used them in the past. Now I realize they're lazy shortcuts.


What you said was "*I feel very strongly about working as gadget-free as possible*." Which allows that sometimes, in your opinion, it is _not_ possible to work gadget-free. Yet at the same time, I agree with your bolded statement.



> You and I have gotten into this before and you're well aware of my views and my thoughts. I strongly suggest you study under a real dressage trainer to be able to understand collection and lightness.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And I do appreciate, actually, that you, unlike some others, choose to remain on the thread and post well-thought-out reasons to support your beliefs. Honestly. We may disagree on some points, but I absolutely respect your opinion on this topic because you have good evidence with which to back it up.

_However_, there is a local dressage trainer who, according to what I have been told, is quite good. She has lots of students, and lots of show ring success, and is highly-respected. And has Centered Riding certification, and is married to an excellent equine vet, and blah blah blah. Certainly seems to be someone who cares about the welfare of the horse. And I was at the vet's one day and saw her working with a dressage horse, longeing it. Using (to my eye) quite tight side reins. And the horse had the prettiest little headset you ever saw, and when she got on to ride, it just floated. But me, all I saw were those side reins. And quite frankly I was appalled, because I would never use reins that tight, and because I thought there might be some "magic" to dressage that collected a horse without such gizmos.



bsms said:


> A lot of western riding seems to involve no contact. When I ride Mia bitless with slack in the rein, she sure isn't 'on the bit' - but she often walks and trots just fine. Remember, my goal isn't a dressage level of collection. If she gets strung out, she needs correction. You can see a lot of endurance racers that trot a LOT of miles without being collected at dressage levels, and they do just fine. Mia and Trooper will both trot comfortably for longer than I can stand without 'collection'. It is a matter of degree.


I do wonder how much of that "dressage collection" is just a show ring facade, like in the anecdote I posted above. It's certainly not necessary for the horse to perform athletically, and if you watch a lot of those horses, they're quite frankly ****ed. Popping tails, pinned ears. I saw the World Famous Lipizzaner Stallions last week--they were some angry sumbucks. Ridden on tight reins and--this surprised me--really harsh and constant spur pressure. Dang, I'd be in a bad mood, too! But oh, how pretty is the piaffe! :?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Depends what you call gadgets. I do use side-reins or Vienna-style reins when lunging. I will use a double-rein bit such as a pelham or double. I will NOT use anything but a smooth-mouth bit. I will not use draw-reins or a German martingale, or a flash to shut my horse's mouth. Side reins are about as gadget-y as I get, and I really dislike most gadgets out there. I've used a good lot of them in the past, and have learned just as much what not to do as I have what TO do from various people in my past. Would it shock you to know I used a thin twisted wire on my 17.1hh gelding when I owned him? There are things I've done in my past that I am not proud of, but will not make excuses for. What I can try to do, though, is educate people so they don't make the same or similar mistakes. 
It's why I get so up-in-arms towards some who suggest things such as a textured mouth can aid a horse in collection - no, it won't. It can get a horse to back off the bit, but for all the wrong reasons.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

bubba13 said:


> most of them using a similar protocol to the one I outlined. Not saying it's right. Just saying that these fairly "big name" people do it, and have success, too.
> 
> I do wonder how much of that "dressage collection" is just a show ring facade,


1) You are defending your practices by saying that big names do it, so it must be okay. Big names use Mule bits - does that make it okay? Not on your life. They're successful partially due to the gadgets, partially due to politics, partially due to their name, and partially due to talent - does any of that make what they do right? Nonsensical argument there. Anky is/was at the top of the Dressage game for a length of time... does that make her training techniques, including Rollkur, right? Hardly. 

2) I'm more of a classical rider, and quite dislike some of what I see at the top of the Dressage world right now. You know, I think you would really enjoy reading "Tug of War: Classical versus Modern Dressage" - I suggest you pick it up and give it a read. Honestly - it's a fabulous read even if you aren't a dressage rider. It outlines the majority of the problems I have with modern dressage, and what dressage really means - to get the horse moving correctly.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Oh, I wouldn't suggest using a rough mouth for riding with contact--hope you didn't get that impression. I certainly wouldn't ever bit back with a twisted bit, or ride one with tight reins. That is just asking for a sore mouth and resentful horse. My comments were in reference to the Wonder.

But any sort of curb, even with double reins--I know you supposedly teach everything with the snaffle first, but that's still a leverage bit, and not much different than mine.

The only kind of martingale I've used is the running, and I like that, _for very short periods of time_. Well, and tie-downs (standing martingales?) too, but for a totally different purpose, and certainly not for headset or collection.

I also hate nosebands, and quite frankly side reins terrify me:










Yuck. The horse has no escape; no way to release the pressure on his mouth. But you know what? I've never used side reins, and don't have a clear understanding of how they work, so my opinion is rather irrelevant and absurd....much like some people's condemnation of bits they've never seen or used.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

JustDressageIt said:


> 1) You are defending your practices by saying that big names do it, so it must be okay. Big names use Mule bits - does that make it okay? Not on your life. They're successful partially due to the gadgets, partially due to politics, partially due to their name, and partially due to talent - does any of that make what they do right? Nonsensical argument there. Anky is/was at the top of the Dressage game for a length of time... does that make her training techniques, including Rollkur, right? Hardly.




I'm simply saying that these are the only--and the best--trainers I know. This is a pretty horsey area, and we've got a lot of talented and successful riders. I don't mean to fall into the Big Name Cleve Wells fallacy. It's just that....if you can't trust these people, who can you trust? Certainly nobody rides better 'round here, and most of their techniques are not the slightest bit cruel.

On my gray mare threads, people said "get a trainer blah blah." Professional trainers with successful show records (and world championship titles!) CREATED many of her issues when I was riding under them; now I've got to try to undo what has been done, and that's a helluva lot harder than just plain riding in the first place.


How is anyone supposed to learn when the "experts" are wrong?


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I wrote this article for an online equine newsletter--maybe it shows some of my views a little better?

Gadgets and Gizmos 












The horse world is divided on the issue of using various training tools. Some trainers believe that the only way to have a “natural,” proper relationship with a horse—based on actual correct work, kindness, and understanding—is to forgo all tack equipment aside from a simple snaffle. They think that so-called gadgets and gizmos are ineffective shortcuts at best and downright abusive at worst. Others, however, see nothing cruel in the proper usage of different tack devices, and find that these tools enhance the training process, making it easier and faster for both horse and rider. The key, of course, is _proper usage_, as any piece of equipment can become harsh in the wrong hands. Here, we address a few of the more commonly used and misused training devices, and what they are intended to accomplish.

*Tie-Down*


A tie-down (known as a standing martingale in English riding circles), as its name suggests, literally ties a horse’s head down and prevents it from being raised above a certain height. It consists of two parts: the noseband and the tie-down strap. The latter attaches to the girth and regulates the length and degree to which the head can be raised. Commonly used materials are leather or BioThane, but nylon with elastic stretch segments is sometimes employed. The noseband varies in construction and severity from broad, flat leather (which disperses the pressure over a wide area of the nose) to rope (which concentrates the pressure and can easily abrade the skin and cause permanent scarring) to thin twisted wire, which is incredibly severe and should never be used.

The tie-down, despite appearance, is _not_ meant to be used as a head-setting device. It controls the height of the horse’s head, not the body carriage or collection. A tie-down cannot force a horse to carry itself correctly—no equipment can do that, as collection comes from time and training.







Also, when used improperly on an inexperienced horse, it can create panic and cause a horse to rear, a potentially extremely dangerous situation. As with any piece of tack, the tie-down should be introduced slowly. Keep in mind, in addition, that it interferes with the horse's natural motion and can be dangerous during river crossings (when a horse cannot hold its head above water) or on steep hillsides.

The proper use of a tie-down is largely for speed event Western horses such as ropers and barrel racers. During these fast-paced events, the excited horse will raise its head extremely high. The tie-down both prevents the horse from completely evading the bit and taking off and gives support for the head to brace against. This is particularly important during the fast stops of roping or lightning turns of barrel racing, where the tie-down can actually help the horse balance and remain on its feet. Tie-downs can also be used (in conjunction with proper training) on chronic bolters, rearers, or head-tossers. Here, they provide a bit of security against these vices. For some horses, the presence of a loose tie-down is all they need to remind them to keep a relaxed, level head position.

The tie-down should be adjusted as loosely as possible. A good rule of thumb is that, when the horse’s head is raised to the highest comfortable position while at rest, the tie-down strap should be able to be lifted up with a hand to touch the bottom of the neck. This will vary, however, depending on the discipline, training, and habits of the horse.

*Running Martingale*


There are several different types of martingale, all with a slightly different use and mechanism of function. One of the more commonly used, humane, and safe is the running martingale (also known as the training fork or rings). This is a device, usually made from leather, which attaches to the girth or breastcollar and runs upwards, forking out into two straps that terminate in rings. These straps are sometimes constructed from stretchy rubber, allowing more give to the horse’s movements. There is usually a strap that runs over the neck, as well, to secure the martingale in place. The reins are run through the rings, pulling them downward from their natural position if they were held directly by the rider’s hand with no interference. Rubber rein stops should always be used to prevent the rein clips or bit from getting stuck in the martingale rings, which could have disastrous consequences.









Unlike the tie-down, the running martingale is a head-setting device. It cannot physically prevent a horse from raising its head above a certain height (no matter how hard the rider pulls on the reins, the horse will always be stronger), but it can encourage a horse to tuck its nose and drop its head, which, when done properly and not used for a false frame or to evade the bit, is one of the elements of collection. A horse’s head should never be _forced_ down, however, whether with a martingale or by other means. Instead, the martingale helps to suggest this idea, and as soon as the horse begins to grasp the concept, the martingale can be removed.

The running martingale works by causing the bit to pull downward on the tongue and bars, rather than straight back. This new pressure is unpleasant, so the horse tucks its nose slightly downward, and is rewarded with a release. The martingale should only be used in conjunction with a snaffle bit.

*Bits and Pieces







*


No discussion of training gadgets would be complete without touching on the various types of harsh and “quick-fix” bits, but this is such a large and complicated topic that it deserves its own entire article (or book!). Suffice it to say that any bit can cause excruciating pain and damage in the wrong hands, while the vast majority of bits—even those with horrible reputations for being cruel—can be light and forgiving with an experienced, careful rider. An inexperienced rider who is not well-educated on a bit’s action and intended use should never use that equipment without first consulting a trainer. Bits cannot replace proper training, but they can enhance it.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

*Spurs*


Spurs are another often misunderstood training aid. Many people think that spurs are intended to “make a horse go fast.” In reality, they should seldom or never be used for that purpose.

Some spurs are rounded and blunt at the tips (so-called humane spurs) while most have spinning rowels that vary in size and severity (all the way to the sharp-tipped “rock grinders”). The length and shape of the neck (or shank) has little to do with the spur’s function; it simply caters to the rider’s preference and reach. A longer-limbed person will require a longer neck in order to reach the horse’s belly with the rowel.

Spurs should only be used lightly, and should never be used to inflict pain on a horse. Rather, they should be an extension of the leg that lends ease to subtle cues. A horse should not be physically kicked with a spur. A light bump







is all that is necessary, and this is the cue that can mean “speed up” or “move over” (although in some disciplines, such as Western pleasure, “spur-stopped” horses are taught to slow down when bumped in the side). More often, a spur is gently rolled against the horse’s side. This sensation is not at all painful, but is instead a slightly ticklish reminder that can push a horse into frame, ask for bending, or more. In short, a spur concentrates leg pressure to a specific area for cue refinement and more specific movements in the well-trained horse.

*Whip*


There are multiple types of whip, from the short crops given to child riders to motivate their lazy ponies, to long dressage whips, to the quirts and over-and-unders used by timed event riders. The







use of a crop for speed in racing-type disciplines is said to play off of a horse’s instinct to run from pain (in this case, perhaps the whip simulates the lashing claws of a pursuing predator). Regardless of the evolutionary reason, whips certainly do work to encourage speed. However, due to the infliction of pain and lack of finesse in commands, when possible, other techniques (such as voice commands or seat changes) should be used to encourage a horse to run, in lieu of whipping.

Whips can also be used, like spurs, to enhance cue refinement and change a horse’s body frame and collection. A dressage whip is most commonly employed for this purpose. A light tap on the shoulder can mean “bring the shoulder in and bend,” while the same tap on the outside rump while circling can prevent a horse’s hindquarters from swinging wide and loose.

*Closing Words*

Keep in mind that, ultimately, each and every horse or trainer is an individual. While there are certainly numerous "wrong" ways to train a horse (by inflicting pain or being completely ineffective), there are also many different "right" ways--there is no one-size-fits-all riding solution. Each horse/human pair will have to find the techniques and tools that work the best for their unique needs.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

A running martingale is NOT for bringing the head down. It is simply to stop the head getting to a point where the reins don't function or the person is in danger of being hit in the face. It shouldn't come into play at all when the head is held in any non extreme position.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bubba13 said:


> Would you agree that "being on the bit" is a little different from true full body collection, though? Because otherwise, your experience completely contradicts what everyone else is saying--namely, that collection takes months of training and building proper muscles and laying an increasing foundation.


You are exactly right. It takes really long time to build all muscles so they can do it :wink: . Of course depends on horse too, but my own horse is challenging because of her build (long back, short legs, downhill). What I meant was she didn't make her travel round and collected around. She made her work from behind and round the back (so "headset" came in place right away) for several strides, then relax, then ask again for may be 5-10 mins at the most. That's all horse could handle at that time, but considering she never traveled round with the rider on that was really something different. The trainer's ride definitely changed my horse's mind that day believe it or not. I only wish my trainer could get on my paint also to work with her (so far she refused  ).

BTW, I don't use side reins and I've never seen my trainer to use them with other students. Frankly I don't see that big need of it AND you really should know how to use them in 1st place (plus I'm not biggest fan of lunging, I like riding more lol!).


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

wild_spot said:


> A running martingale is NOT for bringing the head down. It is simply to stop the head getting to a point where the reins don't function or the person is in danger of being hit in the face. It shouldn't come into play at all when the head is held in any non extreme position.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


See, I've read all of that literature, but I've certainly never seen it employed that way. How I was taught, it's rather like using side reins, or draw reins, or bitting back. Again, it's not used to crank a horse's head down, by any means. But it allows the rider to hold the reins at a natural position while still exerting a slight downward pressure with the bit. And then release. Just like any other sensible training. The goal is to ride on a loose rein and, when the horse's head gets too high, check back to remind him to lower it, and then release your hold again.

This is the best picture I could find, but this is adjusted slightly too tight for my tastes.



I found this slightly interesting: *TBA*: Training Equipment Perceptions: Across the Disciplines


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Bubba, how many people use it does not mean that is what it is truly intended for and should be used for.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

And just because someone says it shouldn't be used one way doesn't mean it can't be used that way, or that it's harmful when used in such a manner.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Bracing against a martingale puts a horse in an inverted position. There is no way to round through the back if you are using the muscles on the under side of your neck to brace yourself against a martingale.

There is a thread going right now where the OP noticed her horse now and over developed muscles under her neck. She has photos of her horse before she used the running martingale and after, the difference is not something anyone strives for.

BTW, I like running martingales. I think they are very useful tool. Holding a head down is not that use.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

But _proper use_, even in the Western sense, does not involve "holding" the horse at all. He can't brace if there's nothing to brace against. Go back and re-read what I said a couple of posts ago...


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Bubba, many of your examples are incorrect and you description of use are also incorrect.

For instance, those are NOT regular side reins, as you should know. Those are SLIDING side reins that very few educated horse trainers use. Regular side reins allow more movement. I do not use side reins unless they are quite loose, and even then rarely.

Running martingales never hold the horse's head down if used properly. Evidently, the people you know do not use them correctly. They are simply a safety stop to keep horses from flinging their heads beyond rein control.

Please, if you decide to try to "educate" us. Do a little more studying first.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Allison Finch said:


> Bubba, many of your examples are incorrect and you description of use are also incorrect.


Not in the Western world, with which you are apparently unfamiliar. You've also yet to tell me what's so inhumane about a Wonder bit.



> For instance, those are NOT regular side reins, as you should know.


No, I shouldn't know, as by my own admission I have never used side reins. Though I have to say, when I Google "side reins" almost all the images that come up are of the same "sliding" ones. So even giving this:










The use of that is exactly like the way I use a training fork / running martingale. No difference whatsoever except in appearance.



> Running martingales never hold the horse's head down if used properly. Evidently, the people you know do not use them correctly. They are simply a safety stop to keep horses from flinging their heads beyond rein control.


Again, see previous posts. This may be true _in your discipline_, but not in _all_ disciplines. And I have never, ever, at any point, said that they should be used to hold a horse's head down. Read what I wrote, not some convoluted version of my words.



> Please, if you decide to try to "educate" us. Do a little more studying first.


I don't know why you insist in making up my intentions for me. Find where I claimed to be educating or where I claimed to be an expert. Please. Show it to me. I'm not the one popping in with insults but no factual basis or solid reasoning to back them up.

Never have I said that my way is the only way, or even the best way. But I continue to hold that it is both effective and humane, and perfectly suitable for some disciplines.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Bubba, you post misinformation quite a lot, and then refuse to see it when it's pointed out. You claim to be a trainer and post quite a lot of opinions on equipment and techniques you don't fully understand...This can be construed as "education" as it isn't implicitly stated to lead anyone to believe you're not doing just that. 
I completely agree with Alison, but refuse to get into it - again! - with you in this thread.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Indeed, as we have been over it, ad nauseum.

I think I have explained my "misinformation" quite thoroughly. If any gray area remains, kindly direct my attention to it so I can either clarify or retreat and retract. Just like the Tom Thumb thread, where even with video proof of the limited ability for independent side rotation of an Argentine Snaffle, I continued to be ridiculed....yet without the presentation of contrary evidence, as there really couldn't be any.

I won't touch (or will post with lots of "I'm not sure on this..." clarifications) topics which I do not understand. I DO, however, understand bitting equipment, as I have studied it extensively. I know both how much of it is "meant" to be used as well as how it "can" be used, as I have used it--both properly and improperly.

I don't claim to know the English disciplines, or how all they utilize all of the forms of equipment. I don't. Basic training IS basic training, no matter the tack or event, but at the same time, there ARE differences in how different things are approached and employed. That is a fact.

As far as claiming to be a trainer, I can't help that that is how I am employed. But you'll also notice that in the thread in question, I was actually self-abasing, admitting quite humbly that I do not in any way consider myself a professional or be-all and end-all expert.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Just to clarify--

*Beyond the use of a Wonder bit in appropriate (which I've addressed, but no one else has)

*And the use of a running martingale as a similar substitute for side reins

*And the thought that a fat twisted bit doesn't have to be harsh or cruel when ridden with light hands

On exactly what points do people disagree?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

All three in my opinion. Wonder bit is not wonderful. Running martingale should never influence the head unless the head is thrown up and back. A training fork is a piece of equipment used to bring the head down - and I completely disagree with its use. When the reins are picked up in a twisted wire, you're controlling through discomfort. 
I'm a bit obsessed with bits - admittedly my expertise is on the snaffle or English side, but I do know some western bits.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

> Never have I said that my way is the only way, or even the best way. But I continue to hold that it is both effective and humane, and perfectly suitable for some disciplines.
> ________
> 
> 
> ...




:roll:

Where can I start?
Nowhere............it has gotten too sad.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I don't want to jump in on the martingale/training debate because I'm totally unqualified to have an opinion. However, when discussing tack, it helps to remember that the tack item cannot be separated from the style of equitation and the training goal of that style.

For example, a book on fitting the western saddle started each discussion of the various western sports with 'The cutting saddle should keep the rider's heel under her hip' and then criticized the saddle for not doing so - when cutters don't ride with their heel under the hip. The English rider was evaluating equipment without understanding how the style of riding affected its use.

I ride bitless or with a french link snaffle, depending on which horse. The western instructor I've started taking lessons from only uses snaffles. However, many western riders use a bit differently than many english riders, so the western bit needs to be evaluated in terms of how it is used by western riders.

Does that extend to tie downs/martingales? I don't know. But based on what I've seen so far, I wouldn't be surprised...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Post #4, Bubba13 wrote, "Three piece snaffle bits are good, but I far prefer a smooth French link, particularly for a young, green horse."

Post #8, Bubba13 wrote, "I'm not all that high on Wonder bits for everyday riding, and certainly not for green horses all the time. I think they're a temporary learning tool. They help to teach bend/flex/collection, but you can really leverage a horse's head down with them, what with all that shank length you've got. Quite a bit of poll pressure, curb, and corner-of-the-mouth-pulling-up effect when you really crank on the reins, so they're not for inexperienced riders...But the Wonder is an all-right sort of bit, to summarize."

She disagreed with the OP choice of bit, and didn't exactly give an enthusiastic endorsement of the 'wonder bit'. And from the looks of it, the 'wonder bit' was designed to have slack in the reins...


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Well, that's a starting point at least.



JustDressageIt said:


> All three in my opinion. Wonder bit is not wonderful.


It's far from my favorite bit, too. But I have found it useful for introducing a curb bit and clearly cueing lateral movement. I've never used it on any horse for more than a few rides before switching to something else. _Like practically any other bit_, it absolutely does not have to be inhumane or cruel, and it can be helpful. 



> Running martingale should never influence the head unless the head is thrown up and back. A training fork is a piece of equipment used to bring the head down - and I completely disagree with its use.


That's fine, and to an extent I agree--but keep in mind that my usage of a training fork is practically indistinguishable from the common and accepted use of side reins. That, and I do NOT advocate using it with constant contact, or trying to force a horse's head down. It's simply a tool to make the message clearer by exerting a downward as opposed to straight-back pressure. Gets the horse thinking about breaking at the poll. No, headset isn't collection. But you can get the horse's head out of the clouds while coupling up his body with your seat and legs _while_ getting him soft and responsive in the mouth, and slightly vertically flexed, and _then_ you're on your way. And at that point the fork can be discarded.



> When the reins are picked up in a twisted wire, you're controlling through discomfort.


Not sure I'm on board with that, entirely. All bits cause some degree of discomfort, or else the horse would not respond to them in the first place--pressure would have no meaning. A hunk of metal in the mouth is not initially a pleasant sensation. Once a horse is trained, the cues can be made subtle enough to cut out the discomfort/pain aspect. Thin twisted bits are appalling. Riding any rough mouthpiece with harsh, heavy, jerking hands is cruel. But using an occasional moderate contact on a bit like the one in the OP? I just really don't think that's going to hurt most horses in the slightest. Rather, it has more (or a different) "feel," so the cues can be softer while achieving the desired result. You don't have to brutalize the horse to get there, either, though some do.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I think we've had enough discussion in this thread. Opinions were given and its up to OP to take them into account. 

Now after cleaning bunch of posts, I want to remind everyone about the _*Etiquette Policy*_ . 

With that being said I'm closing the thread.


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