# Maintaining pregnancy with Regumate



## drafts4ever (Sep 1, 2009)

All I can find on google is how to do it in normal sized horses but nothing about draft horses. 

Caleigh was put on regumate to maintain her pregnancy since she's never been AI'd before and the vet said if I wanted to use it he would dose her. 
Today was her 32 day ultrasound and she had slipped the baby, even on regumate. So we're starting over again on Thursday. 
I called the collecting guy and told him and he said he was sorry to hear that and he'll do what he can to get me a discount on the next shipment over to me. He also said "draft horses and regumate do not go together" but he didn't elaborate on it. I called my vet and left a message asking if he knew anything about this and I called another vet just out of curiosity to find out if they've heard anything like this. 

Before this pregnancy she was pasture bred for her last 3 and had no regumate. So maybe this time around even though it's AI I should leave her off of it? I don't know. I haven't heard anything about it before?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Did you check her progesterone level? If so where was it at? Was it low and if so how low. 

I use Regu Mate on some of my mares however I keep an eye on levels. If it is not needed I do not use it.

Also if you do use it was it the correct dosage. A Draft if a lot larger then a stock mare so the dose would be much higher.


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## drafts4ever (Sep 1, 2009)

I'll have to check the papers. I told him to do everything he needed to do to maintain this pregnancy so he put her on 14cc of regumate every morning. Not sure if he checked her levels but she was positive and on it at her 16 day check. She stayed on it until today and now she's not pregnant so we pulled her off of it.
She's never been on it before from what I've been told but she was pasture bred for all her previous pregnancies. This isn't an option though since the stud is in Montana and I'm in Washington State. AI is my only option.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

There could be many many reasons why she slipped and non of then could be low progesterone. That is normally why you would use regu mate. I use it for that as needed. I also use it to time breeding. Which is actually what it is meant for.


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## drafts4ever (Sep 1, 2009)

I think they started her on day 6 with it. I'm not sure why she slipped and neither is the vet. I'm thinking since it was only her second heat maybe she wasn't ready to carry yet. I just really hope it doesn't happen again but I don't know how to manage it.


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## Avalon Equine (May 26, 2011)

Regumate is highly overused and overprescribed. It is seen as a panacea for any reproductive problem that results in a mare not carrying a pregnancy to term. For more information on it's use, check out this article on our website:

Does My Mare Need Regumate?

Hope this helps!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine-Reproduction.com, LLC
Equine Reproduction

and

Avalon Equine
Welcome to Avalon Equine ~ Quality Performance Sport Horses


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## drafts4ever (Sep 1, 2009)

Thank you, I'll take a look. Right now the plan is to breed, do blood work at 30, 45, and 55 and then decide.


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## Juna (Apr 4, 2010)

Deciding after 55 days of confirmed pregnancy would be too late to save the fetus, if indeed the mare was going to slip it due to low progesterone. If your mare is confirmed pregnant at 14 days, then I would get her blood work done to see where her progesterone levels are at. Your vet can prescribe you on what to do from there with your own individual mare....but with our mare last year, she slipped her pregnancy at 30 days (which is right when they would slip if they have low progesterone. The CL on her ovary supplies the mare with enough progesterone they need to maintain pregnancy up until 30 days. If their bodies aren't producing enough on their own after that day, then bye bye baby.) On the mare's next successful breeding we had to give the mare 10 cc of Regumate every day (starting at 20 days) until she was 150 days along (or was it 100? I can't remember. lol) Then we pulled her off it and she is currently about to foal in the next couple days. :lol:

Good luck with your next breeding! I hope your mare takes for you!


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## Avalon Equine (May 26, 2011)

Juna said:


> Deciding after 55 days of confirmed pregnancy would be too late to save the fetus, if indeed the mare was going to slip it due to low progesterone.


You are correct on that.



> If your mare is confirmed pregnant at 14 days, then I would get her blood work done to see where her progesterone levels are at. Your vet can prescribe you on what to do from there with your own individual mare....but with our mare last year, she slipped her pregnancy at 30 days (which is right when they would slip if they have low progesterone. The CL on her ovary supplies the mare with enough progesterone they need to maintain pregnancy up until 30 days.


By fourteen days post ovulation, if the mare is pregnant chances are very good you do not need progesterone supplementation. But, the original ovulation and resultant CL are NOT sufficient to maintain a pregnancy through 30 days. The mare should be developing and having secondary CL's by that point. Think about it. If the mare is not pregnant, the original CL is resolving by around day 14 and by day 16 to 18, if there is no pregnancy, she is returning to estrus. If the mare needs supplementation, it should be initiated by no later than day 4 or 5 post ovulation to be effective if indeed the mare is truly a candidate for supplementation. Additionally, if you "are" going to supplement, use Altrenogest (Regumate or the injectable form from BET Pharm) as you can still test the mare and determine HER progesterone levels. It doesn't interfere with test results.



> If their bodies aren't producing enough on their own after that day, then bye bye baby.) On the mare's next successful breeding we had to give the mare 10 cc of Regumate every day (starting at 20 days) until she was 150 days along (or was it 100? I can't remember. lol) Then we pulled her off it and she is currently about to foal in the next couple days. :lol:


120 to 150 days is correct. But, if your mare is pregnant at 20 days without supplementation, chances are she is fine on her progesterone levels. By 120 to 150 days the feto-placental unit is responsible for the production of progestins.

Hope that helps!

Kathy St.Martin
Avalon Equine
Welcome to Avalon Equine ~ Quality Performance Sport Horses

and

Equine-Reproduction.com, LLC
Equine Reproduction


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## Juna (Apr 4, 2010)

> By fourteen days post ovulation, if the mare is pregnant chances are very good you do not need progesterone supplementation. But, the original ovulation and resultant CL are NOT sufficient to maintain a pregnancy through 30 days. The mare should be developing and having secondary CL's by that point. Think about it. If the mare is not pregnant, the original CL is resolving by around day 14 and by day 16 to 18, if there is no pregnancy, she is returning to estrus. If the mare needs supplementation, it should be initiated by no later than day 4 or 5 post ovulation to be effective if indeed the mare is truly a candidate for supplementation. Additionally, if you "are" going to supplement, use Altrenogest (Regumate or the injectable form from BET Pharm) as you can still test the mare and determine HER progesterone levels. It doesn't interfere with test results.


Ahh, that's good to know. I'm not sure if my vet has his facts mixed up or what, but what I described is what we did with our mare. And my vet's instructions made sense to me because our mare kept slipping her pregnancy at 30 days. (it happened twice, two years running. The first time, it was too late in the year to breed her again. The second year she slipped once before we had her levels tested at the second 14 days confirmed pregnancy, per vet instruction. That's when we found out her levels were _extremely_ low. We started Regumate and she held on to the fetus through to term.) 



> 120 to 150 days is correct. But, if your mare is pregnant at 20 days without supplementation, chances are she is fine on her progesterone levels. By 120 to 150 days the feto-placental unit is responsible for the production of progestins.
> 
> Hope that helps!


That does help a lot, Avalon. I'll have a chat with my vet and see if maybe I misunderstood his reasoning on why we did what we did with our mare. Thanks!


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## Avalon Equine (May 26, 2011)

Juna said:


> Ahh, that's good to know. I'm not sure if my vet has his facts mixed up or what, but what I described is what we did with our mare. And my vet's instructions made sense to me because our mare kept slipping her pregnancy at 30 days. (it happened twice, two years running. The first time, it was too late in the year to breed her again. The second year she slipped once before we had her levels tested at the second 14 days confirmed pregnancy, per vet instruction. That's when we found out her levels were _extremely_ low. We started Regumate and she held on to the fetus through to term.)
> 
> That does help a lot, Avalon. I'll have a chat with my vet and see if maybe I misunderstood his reasoning on why we did what we did with our mare. Thanks!


The problem with Regumate supplementation is that it's seen as a panacea. A mare slips a pregnancy and many reach for the bottle without understanding what it can and can't do. And, by using it, you can/do actually create the very situation you're attempting to "treat"... But, what's a vet to do? He/she puts the mare Regumate and "miraculously" she carries so the assumption made by the mare owner is that she had "low progesterone levels". More likely is that it was just one of those cascade of events that resulted in a pregnancy loss. Progesterone levels vary significantly throughout the day, so the only way to get an accurate indication of whether or not the mare is truly low is by pulling blood several times a day several days in a row. In all the years that I have been breeding and all the mares we have managed, I've actually used Regumate or progesterone supplementation of any kind for a handful of mares and typically not because I suspect low progesterone levels. There is some research out there now that "does" indicate that with some mares, early supplementation for a brief period of time does help. But, overall, it's overused. Personally, if I have a mare that would require its use due to low progesterone levels, she would be culled from the mare breeding band. I "do" use it in the case of placentitis, when doing embryo transfer for a few days and I've used it for a couple mares that have a torn cervix. 

Hope that helps!


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## drafts4ever (Sep 1, 2009)

The 4-5 day starting point is what my vet recommended in the first place and after talking with him this time he explained that he would be much more comfortable with her on it like we had last time. He said at least through day 60 and we can do blood work after that to see if she'd need to maintain it. 
He also said it's no hurt to keep her on it through the pregnancy either and that will be my choice to make later on. 
I'm hoping she keeps it this time as well. Not sure why she slipped it last time but I'm keeping my fingers extra crossed this time. When I dropped her off on Thursdays he explained to me that the ovaries create the progesterone at first and in draft horses slipping because of low levels is very common that's why they are normally pasture bred because it tends to be cheaper and breeding can be done many times over in a course of a week or more. With AI and draft horses he's always used regumate through 60 days and then decided to keep them on it or not by a series of blood work. So that's what we'll be doing now. It keeps changing but I told him just do whatever he needs to do to give her the best chance of keeping this. After talking to a few mare owners that breed drums they use it a lot until the uterus takes over making the progesterone and they said they test for it.


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## Avalon Equine (May 26, 2011)

drafts4ever said:


> The 4-5 day starting point is what my vet recommended in the first place and after talking with him this time he explained that he would be much more comfortable with her on it like we had last time. He said at least through day 60 and we can do blood work after that to see if she'd need to maintain it.


Why? If the mare is not producing sufficient levels, why does he consider 60 days the magic time to test? Checking earlier will give the answer and possibly save you a significant amount of money.



> He also said it's no hurt to keep her on it through the pregnancy either and that will be my choice to make later on.


Again, why? After 120 to 150 days, the mare is no longer producing progesterone, the feto-placental unit is. And, if it's not producing sufficient levels of progestins to maintain itself, it's probably nota pregnancy you want to maintain!



> When I dropped her off on Thursdays he explained to me that the ovaries create the progesterone at first and in draft horses slipping because of low levels is very common that's why they are normally pasture bred because it tends to be cheaper and breeding can be done many times over in a course of a week or more.


The ovaries are not what is creating progesterone, the corpus luteum (the structure that is produced when the mare ovulates) is what produces progesterone. After the first ovulation, there are secondary ovulations that become secondary CL's (corpus luteums). Breeding multiple times is NOT going to produce more progesterone, ovulations or CL's.



> With AI and draft horses he's always used regumate through 60 days and then decided to keep them on it or not by a series of blood work.


Again, why? If you're going to test, test early and thereby save yourself a significant amount of money if the mare is producing adequate levels.



> So that's what we'll be doing now. It keeps changing but I told him just do whatever he needs to do to give her the best chance of keeping this. After talking to a few mare owners that breed drums they use it a lot until the uterus takes over making the progesterone and they said they test for it.


And this is why so much of it is used. The uterus never produces progesterone. Testing for it should be done early in the pregnancy. By using it indiscriminately, you can create a negative feedback effect - you're supplementing so the mare's body says "hey! Look! We've got enough progesterone floating around here, we don't need to make anymore"...and thereby create the very problem you are attempting to address! 

Hope that helps!

Kathy St.Martin
Avalon Equine
Welcome to Avalon Equine ~ Quality Performance Sport Horses

and

Equine-Reproduction.com, LLC
Equine Reproduction


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## drafts4ever (Sep 1, 2009)

Thank you for the info but now I'm just getting very confused. His method has worked on all the other drafts so I just told him to do what has worked for him and he has a low fail rate
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drafts4ever (Sep 1, 2009)

Not to be rude or anything sometimes I come off wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Avalon Equine (May 26, 2011)

drafts4ever said:


> Not to be rude or anything sometimes I come off wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


<smile>...I didn't take your comment as rude. My post is merely to try and help breeders understand the process and what the Rx's that are used do and don't do. Regumate is a product that is highly overused and really misunderstood. I'm sorry my post confused you. I was hoping to try and do just the opposite. Good luck with your breeding season!

Kathy St.Martin
Avalon Equine
Welcome to Avalon Equine ~ Quality Performance Sport Horses

and

Equine-Reproduction.com
Equine Reproduction


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## drafts4ever (Sep 1, 2009)

Ok good! I never know if I'm taken wrong way!
It's not your post that confused me, I'm just generally confused but I sincerely appreciate the effort in explaining things! 
He was highly recommended over the other vets well known for breeding so I chose him and he's been great. I've just been told like 6 different things and being my first time breeding my own mare I think I've done too much research, turned paranoid and confused myself more than enough. lol. 
I know he wouldn't use it if it wasn't needed and I trust his judgement on that. I've just heard so many different sides my head is about to explode so I just told him to do everything he thought he could to help her keep this turn. 
I've been around a good number of pregnant mares, been there for natural and AI breedings, helped with collections but it's totally different when it's your own mare. I'm overly nervous. I'm glad I don't bite my nails because I'd probably have none left!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I have found over the years that most vets who do not do a lot of repro work have little clue about what does and does not work and what they are doing in general. This is why I started taking different coarse over the years at different vet universities and such. I also have several friends who run larger stallion and breeding farms on speed dial.


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## Avalon Equine (May 26, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> I have found over the years that most vets who do not do a lot of repro work have little clue about what does and does not work and what they are doing in general. This is why I started taking different coarse over the years at different vet universities and such. I also have several friends who run larger stallion and breeding farms on speed dial.


<smile>...In defense of vets, it's hard work, long hours, doesn't pay well, is dangerous, and is constantly evolving. And unfortunately, horse people are some of the worst at paying their bills. Add to that, rectal tears are the number 1 cause of malpractice suits for ALL veterinarians, including small animal :shock:. But, it does require dedication and attention to detail. Not rocket science, but I do really wish that more would at least have a rudimentary understanding of what they are prescribing and why. There is just so much misinformation on Regumate and what it actually does and doesn't do. <sigh>.

Hope that helps!

Kathy St.Martin
Avalon Equine
Welcome to Avalon Equine ~ Quality Performance Sport Horses

and

Equine-Reproduction.com, LLC
Equine Reproduction


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## drafts4ever (Sep 1, 2009)

His practice is why I chose him. Highly recommended through the draft horse community and he and his wife have been breeding the big guys and girls for 25+ years. Where as the other vets that do reproduction specialize in the smaller horse and specialize more in general care than reproduction. He's also local which saves me a ton of stress. I can go see my big girl without spending half a tank getting to her. And he calls or emails with daily updates where the other vets you have to pry it out of them. As for emergencies there are a ton of other on call vets but for breeding I wouldn't trust the others to do it right. Apparently most don't understand that ovulation many times happens on a larger 55-60 folicle and will breed on a 30-40 and wonder why the big girls don't take.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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