# Parelli? Your Thoughts?



## savvylover112

I think it is a good system that is now clouded by the money making scheme of it but I do like the actual system that is behind all the expensive equipment


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## Shilott

savvylover112 said:


> I think it is a good system that is now clouded by the money making scheme of it but I do like the actual system that is behind all the expensive equipment


Exactly my thoughts!!! thankyou for sharing, i just felt like the only on who had this opinion ^^


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## JustDressageIt

The program at one point was good.
Now it's turned into a money-making scheme for the Parellis, who claim it is a program for every horse and every rider; we all know that cannot be true. 
I find it is marketed towards insecure/new riders with a lot of flair and showmanship, exclaiming "buy this program and you too will have a problem-free horse that you can ride with a string (R) (string costs $16 to buy)". 
It has deviated from helpful to moneygrabbing.


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## savvylover112

JustDressageIt said:


> who claim it is a program for every horse and every rider; we all know that cannot be true.


I like this sentence JDI because it is so true I have tried parelli MADE my own stuff so as not to buy anything and it just didn't really work out for Phoebe it works wonders with another one of our horses but just not Phoebe it is just not for her but I will say I have tried it I am not putting it down but it is just not for my mare.


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## Shilott

Great replies, keep them coming


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## mls

Might of been a good program at one point but mass marketing has lost the concept.


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## Miloismyboy

JustDressageIt said:


> "buy this program and you too will have a problem-free horse that you can ride with a string (R) (string costs $16 to buy)".
> It has deviated from helpful to moneygrabbing.


Are you kidding? You must be kidding.... $16 bucks for a STRING?? Man, I'm in the wrong friggin business if I can sell string for $16 bucks and people actually will buy it.


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## Spirithorse

My thoughts? Oh goodness, this might be long lol.

It's an absolutely wonderful program, the best out there IMO. It's way more than riding, as they say. You learn how to be a HORSEMAN, not just someone who rides and shows horses. Anyone can learn how to ride, but it takes a very dedicated person to become a horseman, one who is willing to always think like the horse and to never blame him for acting like a perfect horse.....one who is willing to be uncomfortable while learrning but knows it's for the best of the horse. Parelli teaches you this.

Parelli has identified horse's Horsenalities and has given us strategies to use on each Horsenality, because each horse is different. The idea of this is very innovative and has helped me TREMENDOUSLY....I get results so much faster now.

Parelli teaches you how to read the horse, down to the very very subtle signs of fear, dominance, catatonia, introverted behavior, etc. No one else that I know of teaches you this and what to do about it.

It's really a people training program.....we have to learn how to communicate in a way the horse understands and that is natural to him, and this goes against our natural instincts. I can honestly say that the principles I've learned in the program have transferred over to my personal life and my relationships with people.

Parelli is not for every person (for a lot of reasons, but I'm not sure you want me to go into that), however it is for every horse. Parelli is based on HORSE phsycology, not QH psychology, not trail riding horses psychology, but on HORSE psychology....how horses think, feel, act and play, what's important to them. And really, Parelli is less something you do, and more something you are....you have to think about the true essence of the program. It's something you embody and EMULATE, not imitate (if you want to be good ). 

Parelli takes you from very beginner to very advanced, studying in 4 Savvies and getting skilled in the fundamentals for performance. Back yard horse owners to world class competitors know the benefits of Parelli. That you can not deny.

As a side note, Linda and Pat have no control over the prices......Mark Wieler owns 51% of the company and that is his doing (and I hate Mark). Linda and Pat need to make a living, but they are not out to scam people, they are out to change the world for horses and the people who love them, to help people live their dreams no matter how big or small, and to develop a partnership with their horses that is based on love, language and leadership IN EQUAL DOSES....and of course fun! 

I think I'm done for now lol.


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## Shilott

in saying that, wouldnt you rather learn with you and your horse together... learning each others language at the same speed, same time, just you and your horse figuring out each other for yourselves. you don't need to spend hundreds to do that. Its worked for me, I am sure it works for many.. this is why I am more for monty roberts!


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## sparksgirl

This is what I think-- you take what you like from this clinician, and take what you like from that clinician, what you don't like you dont take-- the only thing that I have bought from a clinicians clinic is a really good rope halter- On Parelli they have to much stuff to handle while trying to work with a horse- I'm kind of clumsy so I would really be more clumsier with all those things.! IF you try one thing and it doesnt work out you try another approach. The point I suppose is how to make the connection from you to your horse so that he understands and responds!


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## Scoutrider

I like the basic philosophy, the idea of helping the horse to understand, and the handler learning to understand the horse, but that isn't Parelli per se, its more Tom Dorrance and the other foundation trainers (of horses and of people) of the NH movement. 

I have had a similar experience with the system itself to that of savvylover112, my horses just don't seem to respond to Parelli specific techniques. They usually just stare at me like I'm stupid or something :?. I have personally gotten better reactions and responses from my Clinton Anderson/Chris Cox/Dennis Reis/Ken McNabb/John Lyons/whoever else is on RFD - Ryan Gingrich (shudders) + a healthy dose of critical thinking and common sense. Granted, I probably was doing something wrong, as I learned about the 7 games from a magazine article, some Googling, and a few infomercial-esqe tv shows.

I also think that a lot of mainstream tv NH trainers focus much of their time and energy on foundation training, colt starting, and rehabbing problem horses (and owners :wink. Because of this, it's up to the owner/handler/trainer to decide where to go when the solid foundation has been established. You can refine a foundation to kingdom come, but someday you need to decide when to level up. Dressage analogy here: Perfection at Training level, but what if you never take that leap to begin schooling at First level? I do know that some NH trainers are attempting to remedy this shortfall: Clinton Anderson has an advanced riding DVD, I think Parelli has something similar (at any rate, followers of the Parelli's have added elements of classical dressage and other disciplines to produce a well educated horse).

The long and short of my rant... Parelli ok, he gets results. His biggest faults are the sheer price of his materials (but that can be argued of several trainers), and the potential for followers to end up in a "foundation skills rut" if they do not branch out a bit (again something that can be argued of most NH tv trainers). 

My biggest personal beef (getting really subjective here... I'm not at all meaning to offend), sometimes the Parelli's just rub me wrong, and almost seem condescending in the way they come across, that because I don't follow their system my horses hate me, but that is certainly just my personal opinion and perception.


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## Shalani

Its a great place to start , but like anything you learn you end up with your own style and adapting methods to suit you &/or your horse better.

It has become some what of a money making train.


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## JustDressageIt

I think there's a lot in the program to take away, learn from, and adapt into a more well-rounded program. 
But on its own, it is very limited and limiting. If you will only practice Parelli, you are greatly limiting yourself, and your horse.


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## Spirithorse

Shilott said:


> in saying that, wouldnt you rather learn with you and your horse together... learning each others language at the same speed, same time, just you and your horse figuring out each other for yourselves. you don't need to spend hundreds to do that. Its worked for me, I am sure it works for many.. this is why I am more for monty roberts!


I do learn with my horse.....that's the Parelli home study course. I also do clinics when I can.


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## wild_spot

*Grabs some popcorn and sits back to watch*


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## Spirithorse

I personally don't like mixing training techniques because you run the high risk of confusing your horse. There have been times when something wasn't working right for me (especially with my warmblood) but did I give up and throw in the towl and look for another out? Nope. That's because I _know_ the program works and I believe in it.....and most importantly, I know that if something isn't working it's _because of me._ It's not the program at fault, it's my ability to read the horse, be the right leader, not taking enough time, etc. that is the problem. I think it's because of this determination to be the best horse-woman I can be for my horse and my dedication to a program that does work that I rarely have problems anymore....with my own horse or other people's horses.


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## JustDressageIt

Spirithorse said:


> I personally don't like mixing training techniques because you run the high risk of confusing your horse.


Um sorry.. what?

No, you mix them together. For instance, I use Monty Roberts' join-up technique, I use a surcingle and bungees, I use some classical dressage techniques.... it's drawing from ALL angles that gives you the best chance of having something in your "horsey toolbox" for each horse.
No confusion, simply a melange of techniques, rather than having only one, singular view on how to train a horse.


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## Spirithorse

To me it seems it would confuse the horse because he wouldn't know who is coming to the barn today.....the person who acts more natural, or the person who acts completely different just because their goal for that day has changed. 

At least in my view, Parelli stays the same no matter if you are practicing a safety technique for trail riding or you have preformance goals and are practicing the fundamentals for performance. The attitude doesn't change from simple maneuvers to more difficult ones, the principles don't change either.


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## JustDressageIt

To me, mixing techniques means you create a whole NEW technique, one that envelops a whole wide range of horses.


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## roro

I am not a fan of Parelli. It seems to have a cult following of riding amateurs. I have a great bond with my horse and I didn't do any of that seven games crap, I actually read books by REAL horse masters on how horses think and see the world. Most world class riders do not have that place because they did the "porcupine game". I think the parelli crap can be fun for people who don't have any horse sense but I don't think it does anything that good training and an educated mind can't.


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## My Beau

Parelli. Ugh.
They are just making money by marketing techniques used by horsemen for many years. Like the "porcupine game": ask the horse to move over/back up/etc. Use pressure, if the horse doesn't move, increase pressure... pat/rub spot when the horse finally moves.

....well, DUH!!!! Parelli certainly didn't invent that one.


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## Scoutrider

IMHO, there is a major difference between taking what is helpful and relevant for a specific horse at a specific time and causing confusion. As JDI said, you can borrow specific exercises, techniques, and games, from many different trainers and have a coherent program that gets good results. For example, you could start a ride by doing a little Lunging for Respect, Friendly Game, and Grooming and Showmanship to warm up on the ground, mount up and do some lateral flexion, walk off on a loose rein, move into trot and pick up a feel on the reins, ride some 20 meter circles, change rein, do leg yields from quarterline to rail, pick up a canter, canter a figure 8, drop stirrups, transition to walk, slowly put slack in the reins and knot them out of the way over the horse's neck and ride simple figures without them to cool down... on and on. That might be similar to one of my afternoon workouts with Scout, borrowing several "name brand" exercises, plus a few figures that have been around as long as people wanted their horses to "dance." 

I have a darn strong suspicion that this is how many of the Parelli's own Games and techniques were developed. Pat certainly borrowed many ideas from his mentors, and put them together, mixed, obviously, with his own ideas and spin on the base philosophy, into a system that delivers results if applied correctly (this caveat applies to every training system out there, NH, BNNH, or the guy with the roundpen down the street who saddle breaks colts for neighbors.) Every trainer stands on the shoulders of the one(s) who taught him/her.

The problem comes when you try to accomplish the same task in 2 different, potentially contradictory ways. For example, my horses learn early how to back up off of lead rope pressure backwards, like a G&S horse. Eventually, they get really sharp and will back up with my shoulder as I walk back. However, the Yo-yo Game seems to completely mystify them. Because they associate backing up with a certain feeling, and with keeping their throatlatch beside my shoulder, they don't try to back up to release the pressure, at least not before my wiggle arm is wiggled out. :lol:


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## JustDressageIt

If you only learn ONE way to train a horse, you have a very limited range of resources to use. 
If you can learn everything, every technique possible, then you have a huge arsenal behind you to combat any challenge that is put in front of you.

Heck, if you only learned one way to, let's say... cook dinner, you only knew how to make Italian food, then that's great, Italian is good, but you're missing out on so much other good food out there, you'll never know what else is out there that might be better, OR enhance your original recipes.


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## roro

Spirithorse said:


> To me it seems it would confuse the horse because he wouldn't know who is coming to the barn today.....the person who acts more natural, or the person who acts completely different just because their goal for that day has changed.


It doesn't confuse a horse, it may confuse the rider if you don't know what you're doing. If you only use one method and only know one philosophy you aren't going to get very far. For me, I have feedback and ideas from multiple clinicians and trainers, as well as books by masters. The clinics I have ridden in or audited and use in my riding regularly (although I have a regular once a week lesson): Gerd Heuschmann, Jen Verharen, Ulla, and Beth Glosten. When I'm riding, I use their different techniques together to create my own. If you take a specific problem you have in your riding, let's say the horse's head comes up and braces. From Jen, I think of making sure his body is straight and isn't going out the hind or shoulder. From Gerd, I think of letting the horse flow through my seat and hold my inside hand up and out. From Ulla, I put the forward energy of his hind into my hands. From Beth, I think of making sure my elbows are relaxed and my position is correct. This creates a rainbow of things I can do and is more effective than just one method. What 'method' are you currently using?


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## My Beau

Oh Oh Oh! I'm also NOT a fan of how the bash (or atleast used to) dressage!
Linda goes out and tells people our sport is harmful and mean to the horses, but just recently they bought Hot Jazz by Hotline - one of the top bred foals from Yancey Farms. Why? Because apparently dressage isn't the devil's spawn now.

The cookie cutter, carrot stick waving, bag of tricks that they claim are one size fits all are just gimmicks. Good trainers do what's best for the horse on an individual basis, and if they don't "click" with a horse then hopefully they refer it to someone else.

None of their games are going to truly prepare a horse to be a successful riding horse. 

I do however admire them for knowing how to make money in this economy


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## Spastic_Dove

I think Parelli has it's place, but I don't think it's the only method you should use. I feel the same way about Clinton, Monty Roberts, etc as well.

I like the idea of working with your horse and understanding how he percieves the world and catering to that. If join-up helps me do that, great. If the seven games help me do that, awesome. 

I have tried the seven games with my horse and they did not work for us however I know Spirithorse has had great success. If you take away the marketing and cult following, I think Parelli teaches the same basic horsemanship other trainers do. Parelli, to me is not special. He did not discover something new. Therefore, I can not use Parelli, and gain the same bond with my horse. 

I too believe in taking ideas from various sources to create your own way to work with your horse. The seven games did not work well with Diesel, but they may work better with another horse. Same goes for any other specialized training "technique". 

I think you need to find your own way to communicate with your horse.


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## RedHawk

I think Parelli and "natural horsemanship" is excellent for groundwork, teaching manners and establishing respect on the ground, but that's about it. I agree with the idea of working with the horse and teaching it a way it can understand, using its own language, etc... but that's not natural horsemanship, that's just _good_ horsemanship, and you don't have to use Parelli's methods to do that.
I also don't like how soft and "touchy-feeling" (no offence intended anyone!!!) some of it has gotten. They seem to have dismissed the idea of discipline. 
I read on the FuglyHorseoftheDay blog, about how one woman wrote to Pat Parelli about her appy. The horse was quite dominant and was biting her, to the point where he was leaving big bruises on her. Parelli's answer - give him a carrot, make friends with him and then he will stop biting you. :shock:
Lost some respect for him there. The general idea of it and the principle behind it when it started I do agree with, but I think you need balance and an open mind.


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## wild_spot

> at least not before my wiggle arm is wiggled out.


Just made me LOL :]


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## RadHenry09

Although I do see the direction of this thread and everyone is entitled to his/her opinion I can see how using The parelli program combined with other NH training can be confusing to the horse. The Parelli games/levels build upon each other. For example the seven games are learned in an order 1-7 , you do them in order and get really good at doing them then you mix them up. Level 1 tasks are before Level 2 task etc...The exercises build upon each other until you have success in all areas-Savvys. I believe that it is the same with other programs ...( just as an example) Clinton Anderson has gaining respect on the ground 1 & 2 .You should follow the exercises in order on 1 before jumping to 2. If you pick and chose just randomly and dont have a clear outline of what it is you want to accomplish you are being confusing to the horse.

I have used Parelli with my horses, more so with my Mustang and I feel that it has done some wonderful things for our relationship. Also , SpiritHorse has done some amazing things with her horse and has great success as well.
Having a feel for the parelli program myself it is more about how you are with your horses and not putting your goals before your relationship.
I do not agree with the statement that Parelli is for amateurs with no horse sense because there has been many top riders who have used the Parelli principles with excellent results.

There is a lot of negative posts about Parelli ( to each their own) , if you have not had success with it then perhaps another series will work for you. 

OR perhaps taking a few ideas from others and mixing it together is the best for you and your horse...that is great too as long as you are not flying around so much and taking the time that it takes...: )


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## JustDressageIt

RadHenry09 said:


> OR perhaps taking a few ideas from others and mixing it together is the best for you and your horse...


That's all I'm saying.
If you don't know how to train a horse, don't rely on DVDs to teach you... please!! I suggest taking lessons/clinics/whatever with a lot of different trainers throughout your riding career - even the bad ones will teach you something 
If you stick on one program and expect it to work for every horse, you're going to end up disappointed. No one singular training program works for each horse, and it's idiotic to claim that. 
At least if you have a lot of experience with different backgrounds to pull from, you have a wide base and will likely be able to address whatever problem comes your way. 
Parelli is good for some horse/rider combinations, for others it is the last thing they should be doing. Moreover, Parelli should NOT be your only training "tool" in your "training toolbox" as that is very narrowminded.


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## RadHenry09

JustDressageIt said:


> That's all I'm saying.
> If you don't know how to train a horse, don't rely on DVDs to teach you... please!! I suggest taking lessons/clinics/whatever with a lot of different trainers throughout your riding career - even the bad ones will teach you something
> 
> Wasnt sure if that was just a general statement to the thread or to me but I just wanted to add that I dont just rely on DVDs to help teach me. : )


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## JustDressageIt

A general statement.


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## RedRoan

> To me it seems it would confuse the horse because he wouldn't know who is coming to the barn today.....


Looks like you need to expierament for yourself and see what happens ;-).

I've found that trying to expose your horse to as many different people (with non-abusive hands mind you) as possible makes a more solid horse in the future. Exposing them to different people once and a while makes them listen to you and make them more willing to what you are asking them to do.

Look at lesson horses for example. Yes, some may seem to be more 'dead headed' but would you want a more 'broke horse' that you can clean up by being faster with signals? Or a horse that is completely insain and won't listen to you? For safety, I think, I would go with the lesson horse.


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## Scoutrider

Spastic_Dove said:


> I think you need to find your own way to communicate with your horse.


To quote Mr. Parelli... "And the crowd goes wild!!!" Very well put. 



RedHawk said:


> I read on the FuglyHorseoftheDay blog, about how one woman wrote to Pat Parelli about her appy. The horse was quite dominant and was biting her, to the point where he was leaving big bruises on her. Parelli's answer - give him a carrot, make friends with him and then he will stop biting you. :shock:


Dear Lord... where's that eye rolling smiley??? 



RadHenry09 said:


> Although I do see the direction of this thread and everyone is entitled to his/her opinion I can see how using The parelli program combined with other NH training can be confusing to the horse. The Parelli games/levels build upon each other. For example the seven games are learned in an order 1-7 , you do them in order and get really good at doing them then you mix them up. Level 1 tasks are before Level 2 task etc...The exercises build upon each other until you have success in all areas-Savvys. I believe that it is the same with other programs ...( just as an example) Clinton Anderson has gaining respect on the ground 1 & 2 .You should follow the exercises in order on 1 before jumping to 2. If you pick and chose just randomly and dont have a clear outline of what it is you want to accomplish you are being confusing to the horse.


An excellent point. Any rider/trainer/handler does need to build a foundation before moving up, but that is true for any training methodology, whether Parelli, Anderson, or Classical Dressage. There are steps to follow, and, by and large, most roads lead to Rome. Any issues here are the result, not of mixing nethods, but of asking a horse for too much, too soon. There's being mixed up within a method, and there's mixing and matching entire components of different methods. Mixing and matching can work well as long as your horse is properly prepared, mentally and physically, for what you are asking of him. I do recognize, however, the benefits of having a well structured, step-by-step system. People (in general) in my experience like processes to be laid out in a systematic way. (Actually, for shunning all predatory activity, something that systematic seems a little out of character for the Parelli's... aren't predators supposed to have highly systematic goals and methods or something?) There's a reason why instructions come in the box for gadgets with moving parts. The Parelli's and others have provided a set of "instructions" for dealing with horses in general for anyone who wishes to take advantage of it. The thing is... a horse is not a stereo, an internal combustion engine, or Barbie's Dream House. With these things, if you do one thing not quite according to the instructions, your (insert item here) will not function at all. A horse is a little different, IMHO. There are a dozen ways to get the end result, but skipping any steps is what sets anyone and any horse up for trouble.


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## kevinshorses

Spirithorse said:


> To me it seems it would confuse the horse because he wouldn't know who is coming to the barn today.....the person who acts more natural, or the person who acts completely different just because their goal for that day has changed.
> 
> At least in my view, Parelli stays the same no matter if you are practicing a safety technique for trail riding or you have preformance goals and are practicing the fundamentals for performance. The attitude doesn't change from simple maneuvers to more difficult ones, the principles don't change either.


 
If you have a clear view of what you want to ask of your horse and break it down to simple steps your horse won't become confused. As far as your horse not kowing who is coming to the barn, your horse doesn't know Pat Parrelli from Clinton Anderson from Bozo the Clown. If your horse gets confused it's your fault not anyone elses. Nobody is forcing you to change anything about your attitude.


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## mls

Spirithorse said:


> To me it seems it would confuse the horse because he wouldn't know who is coming to the barn today.....the person who acts more natural, or the person who acts completely different just because their goal for that day has changed.


The person who acts natural? As opposed to acting how?

One example of my not natural' training methods - I teach my horses to back from the ground by stepping into their 'space' - yet they know ME to know when I am stepping up to pet or hug or expecting them to move.

No wiggling or anything necessary . . .


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## Spirithorse

Well apparently I don't know how to do anything right with horses because I do Parelli....according to roro (or whatever her username is, can't remember) *rolls eyes* And I guess the people I've given lessons to in the past didn't learn anything from me either.....even though they have advanced A LOT. Sure, ok.......people who do Parelli don't know what they're doing.....lol.

Parelli is a brilliant program for those who really want to strive for being the best they can be for their horse. Craig Johnson, Karen Rohlf, Louis Lucio, David and Karen O'Connor, along with others also agree. Pat is an amazing horseman. If you deny that, you are blind. Enough said.


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## JustDressageIt

Spirithorse said:


> Well apparently I don't know how to do anything right with horses because I do Parelli....according to roro (or whatever her username is, can't remember) *rolls eyes* And I guess the people I've given lessons to in the past didn't learn anything from me either.....even though they have advanced A LOT. Sure, ok.......people who do Parelli don't know what they're doing.....lol.
> 
> Parelli is a brilliant program for those who really want to strive for being the best they can be for their horse. Craig Johnson, Karen Rohlf, Louis Lucio, David and Karen O'Connor, along with others also agree. Pat is an amazing horseman. If you deny that, you are blind. Enough said.


All I'm saying is that it is NOT the only way, and it is NOT for every horse and every person. It can't be.
I am also saying that if you don't explore more training options than just this one technique (or just any ONE theory) then you are severely limiting yourself as a horseperson.


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## Spirithorse

That is your opinion. And my post was not directed at you, so I hope you didn't take offence to anything.


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## starlinestables

I had my general opinions about Parelli....mostly same crap different marketing. THEN I heard about his facilities.. that people pay $5-$6k for some of his clinics and their horses stay in like 15x15, 2 railed outdoor pens WITH NO ROOF on the side of a hill..so basically 50 horses are standing in pens with crap up to their knees possibly being picked on by 5 other horses and you have to carry water buckets to your horse! THAT IS BS!

They charge how much for all their crapand they can't even put a roof over their horse's heads? Apparently, parelli's horses have a nice private barn but the people that pay them thousands and thousands of dollar get S***! 

NO respect for them at all...


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## wild_spot

> Pat is an amazing horseman. If you deny that, you are blind. Enough said.


Yup, i'm sure he is. ANd i'm sure that is the reason HE has so much success with horses.

His devotees? The bulk (Not you Spirit, I know you have acheived good things) are NOT good horsemen, and use Parelli to try and make up for it.


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## Spastic_Dove

Speaking of which, did anyone else read their reasoning behind why they don't use helmets? 

A person asked why none of them wore helmets and here was the reply: 


Thank you for taking the time to write us. We understand your views and
concerns. As quoted by the faculty at our ranch:
“You are quite right – helmets are fabulous things and they save many lives. Tragically
though, people who ARE wearing helmets also die or suffer serious
head injuries in accidents with horses.
Our program is intended to address the safety problem at its root – which is
behavioral – rather than address the symptoms of it. Our message is about
developing the relationship with the horse, and the savvy level of the rider,
so that unsafe behavior is addressed long before the rider gets on the horse -
rather than allowing the unsafe situations to continue to occur and hope that
the helmet, body protector, etc, will protect us from the consequences.
The reason you do not see our people wearing helmets is because we try to teach people
that rather than be brave because they are wearing a a helmet to protect
them, they would be better off not riding until their horse is behaving safely.
People have called us brave for not wearing helmets, but we say they are a lot
braver than we are. We would not get on their horse until we had addressed the
issues that cause it to behave in unsafe ways.
We hope this helps,
From the Faculty, Parelli Centers



What a load of crap.


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## mls

JustDressageIt said:


> All I'm saying is that it is NOT the only way, and it is NOT for every horse and every person. It can't be.
> I am also saying that if you don't explore more training options than just this one technique (or just any ONE theory) then you are severely limiting yourself as a horseperson.


Exactly.

Not every horse and not every person can learn the exact same way.

Some kids can learn to drive with dad yelling at them, some can't. Some women need a female doctor, some don't.

And has far as being brilliant? I disagree. If he indeed was that brilliant, there would not be so much controversy over his programs.

Oh and PS - some of those folks you mentioned have since backed away from the program.


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## JustDressageIt

Spastic_Dove said:


> Speaking of which, did anyone else read their reasoning behind why they don't use helmets?
> 
> A person asked why none of them wore helmets and here was the reply:
> 
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to write us. We understand your views and
> concerns. As quoted by the faculty at our ranch:
> “You are quite right – helmets are fabulous things and they save many lives. Tragically
> though, people who ARE wearing helmets also die or suffer serious
> head injuries in accidents with horses.
> Our program is intended to address the safety problem at its root – which is
> behavioral – rather than address the symptoms of it. Our message is about
> developing the relationship with the horse, and the savvy level of the rider,
> so that unsafe behavior is addressed long before the rider gets on the horse -
> rather than allowing the unsafe situations to continue to occur and hope that
> the helmet, body protector, etc, will protect us from the consequences.
> The reason you do not see our people wearing helmets is because we try to teach people
> that rather than be brave because they are wearing a a helmet to protect
> them, they would be better off not riding until their horse is behaving safely.
> People have called us brave for not wearing helmets, but we say they are a lot
> braver than we are. We would not get on their horse until we had addressed the
> issues that cause it to behave in unsafe ways.
> We hope this helps,
> From the Faculty, Parelli Centers
> 
> 
> 
> What a load of crap.


Well, I guess they are safer if you never actually get on them! Fugly Horse of the Day


----------



## Spirithorse

^^ Wow, people have way too much time on their hands.....and that's all I will say regarding the people who do that blog.


----------



## JustDressageIt

If that is the Parelli stance, I have honestly lost any shred of respect I have left for them. 



> KG349 wrote:
> I dont like the Parrelli methods but I dont believe a word of the story nor the reply.
> 
> 
> 
> A fairly well know poster from COTH emailed them back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I frequent an online horse bulletin board and came across a very bothersome thread discussing an alleged letter that was sent from you. Can you please verify whether or not this is true? Thank you.
> 
> http://www.ultimatedressage.co.....p?t=168991
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Trish
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She got an email back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Thank you for contacting us. Yes, that is our position with helmets!
> 
> Naturally,
> Stacey
> Parelli Team"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Spirithorse

They aren't saying "Don't ride with a helmet" they are just saying that addressing behavioral issues BEFORE you get on greatly reduces any chance of getting bucked off, run off with, and a lot of other things that can get you hurt. Obviously horses spook, they know that as much as any other horse person. And they aren't saying that people who ride with helmets are wimps or anything like that. That's their opinion, they are allowed it, and anyone with half a brain would realize that just because Linda jumps without a helmet does not mean she is advocating it or that they should do it simply because she does.


----------



## Spastic_Dove

Personally, I took that as "Helmets are used for untrained horses. We have trained, safe horses, so we will not need helmets". 
Which is... ridiculous. It sounds like you are supposed to trust your horse not so spook and break your skull.


----------



## JustDressageIt

Spirithorse, it would be greatly appreciated if your responses were not accusatory or degrading. ("Anyone with half a brain..." well.. not really... that is up to interpretation, isn't it?)

In my opinion, the Parelli family are greatly influential people in the horse community, as much as I may not like it. It is stuff like this that makes me very mad.
Why not try to save a few lives and condone the use of helmets? 

ANY horse can spook, ANY rider CAN die from head trauma. 

Saying that having a well-trained horse will reduce that risk is true, but it still will NOT stop a bee from stinging the horse and the horse responding out of pain, the horse zigging and you zagging, or any number of other scenerios. 
The fact that the Parellis' stance is "your horse isn't trained well enough if you have to worry" is scary.


----------



## JustDressageIt

Spastic_Dove said:


> Personally, I took that as "Helmets are used for untrained horses. We have trained, safe horses, so we will not need helmets".
> Which is... ridiculous. It sounds like you are supposed to trust your horse not so spook and break your skull.


I did as well.


----------



## Spirithorse

I don't see how it was derogatory when it's true....I mean who honestly would think that just because Linda or Pat does something that means they should/are ready to do that?


----------



## Spastic_Dove

Any novice horse person who idolizes the Parelli's?


----------



## 1dog3cats17rodents

The parelli's influence lots of people wether thay want to or not. It is their responsibilty to represent safe behavior. 

And besides, there are a LOT of idiots in the world, many who follow the parelli's. These are the people who think a carrot stick solves all their problems and riding without a helmet makes them somehow a better horseman, because the parelli's don't wear one.


----------



## Spirithorse

I've honestly never met any. I know people who are brand new to horses and are following Parelli and they KNOW not to do certain things....either ever (b/c they don't want to) or not YET. Parelli even says that you won't be riding around and jumping bridleless right away, and for people not to expect that.


----------



## JustDressageIt

Insulting someone is ok when it's "true" in your mind then? Wonderful... 

People think that if they dress, act, and talk a certain way, it makes them as much like their idol as possible. If they don't see helmets, they aren't going to be inclined to wear them.

I've been tossed from a dead broke pony before; hell, I landed on my head too!! I'm not a bad rider, this pony was trained up the wazoo, it was just a freak accident. The helmet probably salvaged a lot of brain cells.



I think this whole thing is VERY irresponsible and is the straw that broke the camel's back on my opinion of the entire program. If I can't trust a trainer to be concerned about MY wellbeing, what the hell can I trust them for???


----------



## 1dog3cats17rodents

Spirithorse said:


> I've honestly never met any. I know people who are brand new to horses and are following Parelli and they KNOW not to do certain things....either ever (b/c they don't want to) or not YET. Parelli even says that you won't be riding around and jumping bridleless right away, and for people not to expect that.


"Monkey see, monkey do" "idiot see, idiot do"

I haven't met a gangster.... so they don't exist?

You haven't met any parelli idiots... so they don't exist?

Are you following my logic?


----------



## Spirithorse

I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying I've never met any. I don't think that section of people is as prominant as some people think.


----------



## Marecare

There are dozen and dozens of clinicians that do not wear helmets and I feel that folks are smelling blood and are over reacting here.

There may be some bad PR spin here,but I am sure that The Parellis will see the error of their ways and come out with a special savvy helmet soon and then everyone will be shocked about the price of the new in improved Parelli helmet.
This is kind of turning into a "Beat up on Spirithorse" thread.

Give it a break!


----------



## 1dog3cats17rodents

I don't see how we are beating up on spirithorse. People said they didn't like parelli, she disagreed, and people disagreed back. It's called discussion


----------



## Spirithorse

I don't mind what other people say. I learned a long time ago that I shouldn't care what anyone else thinks but my horse. I know what I'm doing is right for my horse and that's all I care about. If people want to beat up on me (not saying anyone has...) then that just shows their immaturity. No one is going to change my mind about Parelli


----------



## kevinshorses

Spastic_Dove said:


> Speaking of which, did anyone else read their reasoning behind why they don't use helmets?
> 
> A person asked why none of them wore helmets and here was the reply:
> 
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to write us. We understand your views and
> concerns. As quoted by the faculty at our ranch:
> “You are quite right – helmets are fabulous things and they save many lives. Tragically
> though, people who ARE wearing helmets also die or suffer serious
> head injuries in accidents with horses.
> Our program is intended to address the safety problem at its root – which is
> behavioral – rather than address the symptoms of it. Our message is about
> developing the relationship with the horse, and the savvy level of the rider,
> so that unsafe behavior is addressed long before the rider gets on the horse -
> rather than allowing the unsafe situations to continue to occur and hope that
> the helmet, body protector, etc, will protect us from the consequences.
> The reason you do not see our people wearing helmets is because we try to teach people
> that rather than be brave because they are wearing a a helmet to protect
> them, they would be better off not riding until their horse is behaving safely.
> People have called us brave for not wearing helmets, but we say they are a lot
> braver than we are. We would not get on their horse until we had addressed the
> issues that cause it to behave in unsafe ways.
> We hope this helps,
> From the Faculty, Parelli Centers
> 
> 
> 
> This is definately something I can agree with the Parrellis about. If you have a horse that you wouldn't ride without a helmet then you shouldn't be riding it.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

I don't think the point was about no wearing helmets whatsoever. I believe the point was the answer itself - the entire attitude that a Parelli horse is to "perfect" to ever do something that comes natural to it. Which, personally, I find the absolute height of ironic anyway. Let's do natural horsemanship to remove any last possible shred we can of natural equine behavior.

As has been stated repeatedly, nobody can prevent the freak accidents. Nobody is saying you HAVE to wear a helmet, but for your entire basis of not wearing a helmet to be on "perfect" training is just ridiculous. I don't care how good you are, you can't predict the future. Or does Parelli prevent a horse from breaking it's leg in mid gallop and landing on top of you when he goes down? :-| The issue was with the idea that other people ONLY wear helmets because they're horses aren't properly trained.

I don't mind the idea behind Parelli, but I'm frankly sick and tired of people obsessing over how it's "the only way!!!!" It's such total hogwash. There have been a million different training methods since the dawn of time - some work for some, some don't. I prefer keeping as open a mind as possible, because every good trainer or coach has some good information to give you. Closing your mind because you're arrogant enough to think you've found the perfect training method and don't need to learn anything else is what prevents people from becoming truly great horsemen.


----------



## Spirithorse

Where has Parelli said their horses are perfect? They are well aware that horses are prey animals first and foremost and can spook, as well as trip.


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## JustDressageIt

kevinshorses said:


> This is definately something I can agree with the Parrellis about. If you have a horse that you wouldn't ride without a helmet then you shouldn't be riding it.


Hahahahaha

So I wouldn't ride... ever. My horse is green. He's a wonderful horse, but he can spook.

What about the first ride on a greenie? Retraining an OTTB? You NEVER know how any horse is going to act under saddle 100% of the time. 
Hell, a well broke horse can spook out of nowhere.


----------



## JustDressageIt

One person on another forum summed it up really nicely:



> According to their theory, if I keep my car in perfect repair, then I'll never have an accident.


----------



## RedRoan

> According to their theory, if I keep my car in perfect repair, then I'll never have an accident.


Oh my god... that is hilarous! I'm dying laughing. That sums it up perfectly!


----------



## smrobs

I personally don't have much respect for the Parelli's. Yes, I won't deny that Pat and Linda both are incredible horsemen, but that came from decades of working with horses. I am sorry, but it is impossible to get that level of horse "savvy" from following a DVD set (which costs hundreds or maybe thousands of dollars for the whole thing). It began, years ago, as a very nice program to learn the basics of how a horse thinks and how to communicate with them in a way they understand. However; IMHO, the whole program has been *******ized by the love of money. And every year, he comes up with a whole new gimmick to keep old followers interested and draw new followers just like flies to cow patties. $999.99 USD for a "course-in-a-box"???!! Are you serious??? And EVERY horse can be classified into one of 4 personality types??? Are you serious??? Horses are like people, every one is different depending on their previous training and experiences. Oh, and by the way, a savvy string is $21.27 unless you are a club member. I have met horses that, either because they were spoiled or because they were abused, would charge, bite, paw, kick, and strike with anything they could and I am sorry, but I don't believe that it would work to wave a $65 orange stick at them and expect them to obediently circle out (if someone has a video of this, I would happily change my opinion). That lovey-dovey stuff doesn't work on every horse (even if it works on some). I believe that anyone who expects to become an expert horseman from watching Pat and Linda play with their horses and watching a DVD set is kidding themselves. Regardless of how many DVD's they make or how many issues they cover, there will always be horses with new issues or horses that don't respond to their proposed solution. 

I suppose my point is that if you end up with a horse that doesn't respond to the 7 games or just hates playing them, you have to have another weapon in your arsenal to deal with them.

As for the whole "training the issues out of a horse before you ever get on" thing; regardless of how much groundwork you do with a horse, you can NEVER predict how they will react the first time you climb into the saddle.

If you have Parelli and love Parelli and it works for you, thats great. But I just wish that the rest of us weren't always considered uneducated or ignorant or not real horsemen because we don't do Parelli. Remember the old saying "There is more than one way to skin a cat"? Well there is more than one way to train a horse too.


----------



## Spirithorse

Parelli never has claimed that you will be expert horseman like themselves from the DVDs. The DVDs get you on the path to that and gives you excellent preperation for performance training and is essentially the fundamentals for performance. After Level 4, that is where you get into performance training and that kind of thing is not/can not be offered on a DVD set. For people who want to be good like Pat and Linda, that's what the Parelli Professional courses are for.


----------



## Spyder

smrobs said:


> But I just wish that the rest of us weren't always considered uneducated or ignorant or not real horsemen because we don't do Parelli.


 
It is that rabidness that creates most of the anti Parellism sentiment.


----------



## eventerdrew

I have not read all of the responses, so this may sound a bit out of the current conversation... 

My response is to the comment made by Spirithorse on the second page, the one that said that mixing training techniques would confuse the horse...

my point is, eventing downright WOULDN'T EXIST if you didn't mix training techniques. You HAVE to mix dressage and jumping. And it usually works brilliantly.

JMHO


----------



## bsdhorse

My view on Parelli is simple. Parelli program + common sense = a happy horse and rider.

The Parelli program may not be for every person or every horse. But if you use your common sense and think about what the program is really teaching, you don't have to do the program exactly as is, you can change it so that it works for you and your horse. Although, my feeling is that if the program isn't working, you aren't doing it right.

We all make mistakes, even the top horseman will mis-read their horses from time to time. So you have to give people a break.

My cousin was doing Parelli, it wasn't working for him. He thought the horse was outgoing, pushy and dominate. He thought that he had to address these issues. But in fact, his horse was very insecure and was acting agressively out of fear. Once he realised this, Parelli worked for him.

Still, I agree it's not for everyone. But if you are commited to it, and use your intelligence, you can make it work with any horse. I'm not saying 'make' as in force it into your horse, I mean you can work with it a bit so that it works for you and your horse.

The reason why controversy is upon the Parelli program is because all good things get pulled down. People who put it down are more likely jealous because they aren't as good of a horseman as Pat is. Some might put it down out of fear that someone actually KNOWS MORE THAN THEM.

I'm not trying to offend anyone here. I remain open minded about NH techniques, but I focus on Parelli because I know how to use it appropriately, and shape it to work for any horse and any person. I've shown people who it wasn't working for, a few things which changed everything. It can work no matter what, if you use your mind and heart.


----------



## luvmyperch

I'm going to risk getting in the middle of something ugly, but I just want to say one thing. I recently moved to a Parelli barn. This is a die-hard "Parelli is the only way" place. Most boarders and students are new to riding, never shown, and have never ridden anywhere else or been exposed to anything different. They do not question the methods, ever. I have a lot of respect for the principles of Natural Horsemanship, but the basics are something most people figure out with a little common sense after spending any time around horses. The teenage girls who make up the majority of the riders at my barn NEVER wear helmets. Young children in lessons do wear helmets but helmets are viewed as something for the little kids. While I was at the barn on Saturday, a girl was working on the ground, playing the games, and got on her horse bareback & bridleless without a helmet. Five minutes after she got on, a motorcycle went by and off she goes. Thankfully, she landed on her butt and not on her head, or under her horse. All the training in the world will not prevent a horse from spooking, falling or any other "accident". That's why EVERYONE should ALWAYS wear a helmet. You have no idea what might happen. For the Parelli's to promote riding without helmets is so irresponsible it actually turns my stomach. And, anyone who wants to charge $60 for a training stick, plus another $20 for the string attachment is fooling their followers and making them all into suckers.


----------



## nirvana

I havent realy done anything parellie. When I have a training problem I ask real people with real experience.(Not that parellie doesnt I just dont want to spend the money, and I prefer to ask about my specific situation) I believe in trial and error/mixing method if one method doesnt work try another. I keep my mind completely open to ALL methods. I have been told many time before that "wow, you really know your horse". I didnt get this by going to clinics/watching DVD etc. I got this by spending lots of time with my horse, and figuring out his signals. IMO you can only learn to read your horse by spending loads of time with them, no one can just tell you this because no horse is the exact replica of another.


----------



## Crimsonhorse01

All the NH trainers use the same thing pretty much. Parrelli just gets the suckers. I watched the level 1 box and WOW. If you have any knowledge at all you should know that. And the people teacher... ridiculous. Very overpriced and way overrated. I personally prefer C. Anderson. When I started working my own horses I knew most but not quite how to get there. I liked C. Anderson because he was direct to the point, and didnt fiddle around like Parrelli. Its also Allot cheaper.

I am soo tired of people on helmits on this place. It's a personal preference people! Y'alls opinions when not asked just gets annoying.


----------



## luvmyperch

Crimson, I agree with you that helmets are a personal preference. Personally, my comment relating it to Parelli is that as an organization, it is very irresponsible to send a message to novice horse people (particularly children) that if you use their methods, you won't have a need for a helmet. That is a big red flag for anyone in the horse business and is a sign that its something I would choose to steer clear of.


----------



## Spyder

bsdhorse said:


> My view on Parelli is simple. Parelli program + common sense = a happy horse and rider.


 
Hmmmmmmm

To me it is more like.............

Intellegence + common sense = happy horse and rider.


----------



## nrhareiner

No more like

Parelli program + all the over priced crap he sells = a human with no money left to get a real trainer to have a happy safe horse.


----------



## nirvana

^LOL. That just made my day!:lol:


----------



## bsdhorse

Haha, I have to admit that is funny and true. But yeah, I'd rather not get a trainer so I can spend the time with my horse and get to know it better. 

Certainly proves to be the best option in my case anyway because my cousin has been riding him, working him in. He has been perfectly behaved for him and as soon as I get on he becomes stubborn. That's why from now on I'm doing it myself, while of course getting opinions from others.

I guess you can't really say any program is good or bad. There are too many facors to take into consideration like money, the horse, you, availability, whether you agree with the methods etc. But personally for me, when I use Parelli's advice properly and stick to it, it works. I know it is all common sense, as all NH is, but at the same time, I guess the reason I like Parelli so much over others is the 'style'. 

Meaning, I like his methods and the way he teaches.


----------



## kitten_Val

Spyder said:


> Hmmmmmmm
> 
> To me it is more like.............
> 
> Intellegence + common sense = happy horse and rider.


:lol: Exactly. I'd also add "experience" here.

I personally find Parelli programs (as well as presentations by level 1, 2, ... 25 instructors) to be VERY boring. I can't stand more then 10-15 mins of watching. Also selling those "magic sticks and such" for $$$ is just a complete nonsense. And some ads with Linda P. riding sometime is nothing but a shame for the "best ever" rider/trainer. 

If the program works for someone - that's great whether it's Parelli, CA, MR, or whatever else! But I really dislike when people say that Parelli is the only answer to everything, he's the only one to go with and so on (up to the point that sometime it sounds really offensive like if you don't do the Parelli you are an idiot).


----------



## kitten_Val

Crimsonhorse01 said:


> I am soo tired of people on helmits on this place. It's a personal preference people! Y'alls opinions when not asked just gets annoying.


It was not the bragging about the helmet, actually. But the program that say "follow the directions and you won't need any helmet". Such approach is just a disaster in first place, because unfortunately LOTS of Parelli "students" are the beginners with limited experience and sometime not even knowing how to ride and truly believing that all these things will magically transform the horse.


----------



## HorsesAreForever

-sigh- 

Theres a lot of alternative to the Parelli equitment... parellis is just better quality...but its to exspensive to me.. 

Level one is just the basic beginner saftey level, its for the human not to so much the horse.... They tell you to get through level one as quickly as possible for a reason!!! I knew more then 1/2 the stuff that was in that set, but the stuff I didnt know helped me in some places with my mare. 

Ever watch people who are levels 3-4???? How aboout we NOT base the program off just beginers... Look at higher level students.... even look at Kelly Siglers videos.... you can accomplish A LOT.





I got to have a lesson with Kelly and I really hope I can do it again! 

Also there was a video with Lindas horse Remmer and a Top Dressage rider who wanted to test Remmer through the 5 keys or something I would have to re watch it to tell you the exact thing he called it.. but the whole time he was completely impressed he said we practice for years to get the lead changes this horse does with out even a thinking nor did the dressage rider even realize he was giving the cue because Remmer responds to extreme lightness. 

If you want to know what parelli is about and what people are aiming for.. how about we stop focusing and nit picking at the beginners.


----------



## kitten_Val

I've seen 4 people at the level 3 and 4 presenting at the Expo. Boring, frankly. People were leaving after like 10-15 mins. Sorry. 

As for Kelly Sigler - yes, she's really good. But so what? I personally think Stacy Westfall is not any worse (and in my opinion even more cool) riding with no bridle at all and no saddle and doing all these reining stuff. And I've seen Lynn Palm does dressage and jumping like that too. What I'm trying to say here is Parelli is not the end of the world and many other trainers are as amazing (and even more IMO) as him and his followers. If Parelli program works for someone that's great, but saying it should work for everyone and everyone should be cool with it is just a blind statement.


----------



## nrhareiner

Thing is that Stacey has the earnings to back up her training style. She has gone out and been judged by a group of her piers at the highest level. There are very few others who have done that or done it at that level.

Also Stacey's videos are very straight forward and real world training.


----------



## nrhareiner

No need to string things together and edit it when you are the real deal


----------



## Scoutrider

HorsesAreForever said:


> Theres a lot of alternative to the Parelli equitment... *parellis is just better quality*...but its to exspensive to me..


I would even argue that, to a point... I've held a legit Carrot Stick and Savvy String in my hands before, and I can honestly say that there is not an iota of difference between the Official Parelli Natural Horse-Man-Ship Carrot Stick and my $10 no-name stick (mine's even orange and black :lol.

I'm with kitten_Val here. Whatever program you follow (whether it's even a program at all, or a way of handling horses that you've dreamed up purely on your observation and experience), if it works for you and your horse, and you're doing what you want to do, awesome! Many name brands (not just Parelli, not by a long shot! I've seen some downright rabid CA, Julie Goodnight, and Chris Cox followers, too :wink seem to give their followers "tunnel vision" as far as viewing different methods, or even variations on the same method.


----------



## SavvyHearts

In your opinion, then, nrhareiner, how is Parelli NOT "real world training"?

I agree with HorsesAreForever, don't base your claims on beginner videos. Anyone can claim to be a Parelli student, but does not mean they are doing it right. Look at it this way I can say "I do dressage" but if I don't have the right foundation on my horse, and have knowledge to train my horse in that discipline I will probably look pretty darn silly trying to do dressage. Same with any method...if you can't explain WHY you are doing this at this moment or don't have any knowledge other than "at this point I swing my carrot stick" it becomes nothing but a nightmare for anyone that watches, yourself, and your horse. 



> Thing is that Stacey has the earnings to back up her training style. She has gone out and been judged by a group of her piers at the highest level. There are very few others who have done that or done it at that level.


But to me that just seems that she was so worried to know she was doing it right or had the "I told you so" attitude. I really don't care what others think of me when I am playing with my horse (I do Parelli with my horses, but mainly with my one horse) as long as I know I have a good relationship with my horse.

Putting some videos of bridleless riding. Both are well known people that use Parelli while teaching their discipline.





 
YouTube - Craig Johnson Bridleless Reining Demo


----------



## RedRoan

Just wanted to quick comment.

Watching Stacy Westfall and watching anyone who has done Paralli I would go with Stacy Westfall. Her horse seems wayyyyy happier and not bored to me. Even in that Kelly video someone posted, that horse seemed just plained annoyed with the girl. Yes, you may argue that the horse is 'concintrating' well yeah.... but there is a difference of focusing and enjoying the work and focusing and being bored and annoyed with doing it. If I wanted to do anything in the 'natural' sense I wouldn't want to bore my horse to death.


----------



## nrhareiner

To me if you are going to tell someone how to do something you better have proven you can go out and do it. By being judged by your priers you are doing just that. Proving your methods work. It is simple to string a bunch of clips together and make they look ok but to go out with a horse in front if 10's of thousands of people and get them to do it one time and win. No stopping no editing no do over. Just go out and prove everything you have been working on really works and you are the best that day. Heck she proved she was the best several times with each of those routines.

As for O'Connor and CJ. These trainers riders have been riding and training long before Parrelli. Have they incorperated some of Perrelli methods into their work. Probably. NH is just that NH. Parrelli is nothing more then a master of marketing. His stuff he sells in nothing more or less then other equipment you can buy for a lot less and the quality is no better. Not even close for the price he charges.

My problem with Parrelli is not the NH part. It is his marketing and the cult like following he seems to demand or inspire. There are a lot of Parrilli people around here and not one of them have a real clue. There horse are poorly trained and at times dangerous. The one that I know who actually has a Parrelli trained horse that is not bad has taken about 10 years to get him that way. That is just too long. If you ride a horse enough long enough and get 1/2 of what you are doing correct you will end up with a decent trail horse and that is what that horse is.

I have sent home several Perrilli trained mares in to be bred b/c they where un managable and pushy. Down right dangerous.


----------



## RedRoan

It seems that Paralli instead of grasping the sense that a horse is a prey animal and naturally follows a "stronger"... not even stronger but more demanding leader so to say. People that get into the cult of Paralli don't want to hurt their horse so they let their horse push all over them. Its marketing that has gone over rediculous when it comes to common sense and what is really going on.


----------



## kitten_Val

RedRoan said:


> Watching Stacy Westfall and watching anyone who has done Paralli I would go with Stacy Westfall. Her horse seems wayyyyy happier and not bored to me.


I've seen Stacy and her horse alive. And you are right - the horse didn't look bored AT ALL. I also was amazed that even with all this training you can still see she's a (bossy type) mare with her own point of view on things. Just from her look and the way she shown Lynn's gelding "his place".  Stacy obviously didn't try to train that out of her or go with the easier calm gelding. And I personally respect that a lot.


----------



## nrhareiner

I have seen Stacy show quite a bit as she is local to me and shows on several of the same NRHA Circuits that I do. She is much better at free style that regular classes. Although she is quite good there too. It is just there things are more equal. She is a very nice person and very helpful. Although I find that true of most top NRHA trainers.


----------



## RedRoan

Paralli gets your mind thinking that you need all this stuff to be good. And really all you have to do is get out there, expeirament, watch your horse and its body language, maintain that higher level of relationship with your horse so he dosen't get cocky, do things with your horse that he wants to learn, if its boring him dont push that and he/she will just be rolling his or her eyes from then on out whenever it comes up.

You don't need a 'magic stick' go grab a broken lunging whip and attach some baleing twine. What do you think people did before Paralli came around and packeged all of the NH concepts into one fat package?

All is its taking your time, listening to your horse, and going at the pace that he or her sets. Its not the tack or the games that you need to get and do over and over and over again to be good. Your horse isn't a robot, he/she has a mind of their own also.


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## kitten_Val

nrhareiner said:


> I have seen Stacy show quite a bit as she is local to me and shows on several of the same NRHA Circuits that I do. She is much better at free style that regular classes. Although she is quite good there too. It is just there things are more equal. She is a very nice person and very helpful. Although I find that true of most top NRHA trainers.


Cool! She's certainly way too far from me.  I was thinking about taking reining lessons (we have the guy around who shows), but never was able to reach him on phone. I guess I have to drive to the place directly. Lol!


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## nrhareiner

You would be better off to see him in person. I have found that most trainers do not communicate well over the phone. Even when you know them well. Just dose not seem to be in their wheel house for some reason. More horse orientated over people.


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## luvmyperch

On a personal note, Noah has been at a Parelli barn for two weeks today. In that time, I have watched the way others handle their horses and followed their lead. The BOs have been handling him during this time as well. In the two weeks he has been there, he is steadily becoming more bossy, more pushy and more difficult for everyone to handle. When I was out on Sunday, he was jittery on the cross ties so we took everything nice and slow and gentle. By the time I got out to the ring to ride, he refused to stand still at the mounting block and repeatedly tried to head butt me. The last time he slammed his giant head into my chin, I hauled off and wacked him. Did I hurt him? No, I didn't do anything that another horse in the pasture wouldn't have done if he was invading their space. I'm sure I startled him, but he proceeded to stand quietly at the block while I mounted and followed my direction during the entire ride. Yesterday, the BO emailed me b/c she didn't like the two extra knots my rope halter has on the nose (said it would desensitize him to the pressure), and blamed the halter for the reason Noah pushed his way out of the pasture as she was leading him in. I believe in NH to a point. I do believe in starting with gentle methods. However, if my perch is pushing me around to the point of possibly hurting me, I am going to let him know I'm not taking his crap and I am in charge. Had anyone been around on Sunday, I'm sure I would have gotten an earful.


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## nrhareiner

The rope halter or knots in it will not desensitize a horse to pressure. What will is either not using or not using it correctly. Just like a set of Spurs. If you use them correctly the horse dose not get desensitized they get more responsive.


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## HorsesAreForever

Obviously the pushyness of your horse is who ever was handleing him fault. NOT parelli's. Its called defending you space! It really aggravates me when people blame whats wrong with there horse all because they did parelli for two weeks......

That horse is NOT bored in Kellys video, hes very much engaged in the tasks shes asking him to do and RELAXED!!!!!!!!! So many people get RELAXED and bored in the same boat... obviously you dont seem many calm horses. 

My horse stands for mounting and when I tack her up heres a video of bridleing tacking up and getting on her.. idk it just kinda shows you its not because of parelli... I hope I dont regret posting this... Dont mind the begining of the spin it was just experimenting with it.





 
Shes 6 years old and basically on had parelli training except for a few months of traditional with me in teh begining. so Its not because of parelli..


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## Scoutrider

luvmyperch said:


> On a personal note, Noah has been at a Parelli barn for two weeks today. In that time, I have watched the way others handle their horses and followed their lead. The BOs have been handling him during this time as well. In the two weeks he has been there, he is steadily becoming more bossy, more pushy and more difficult for everyone to handle. When I was out on Sunday, he was jittery on the cross ties so we took everything nice and slow and gentle. By the time I got out to the ring to ride, he refused to stand still at the mounting block and repeatedly tried to head butt me. The last time he slammed his giant head into my chin, I hauled off and wacked him. Did I hurt him? No, I didn't do anything that another horse in the pasture wouldn't have done if he was invading their space. I'm sure I startled him, but he proceeded to stand quietly at the block while I mounted and followed my direction during the entire ride. Yesterday, the BO emailed me b/c she didn't like the two extra knots my rope halter has on the nose (said it would desensitize him to the pressure), and blamed the halter for the reason Noah pushed his way out of the pasture as she was leading him in. I believe in NH to a point. I do believe in starting with gentle methods. However, if my perch is pushing me around to the point of possibly hurting me, I am going to let him know I'm not taking his crap and I am in charge. Had anyone been around on Sunday, I'm sure I would have gotten an earful.


:shock::shock::shock: Wow. I commend your patience. If it was me, I'd be switching barns. I don't care what method "the barn" followed, Parelli or otherwise, if the BO's were working with my horse and he was getting worse, and then they proceeded to tell me about how they didn't like what I was doing about making him better, I'd have given _them_ an earful. Of course, I'm picky and possessive of my horses anyway. If one of mine started picking up bad habits following a session with any other person, that'd be the last they touched my horse :lol:. If anyone's gonna screw them up it'll be me.

Unless there is a "Thou shalt not deviate from the (insert trainer's name here) Way in the slightest detail" clause in the board agreement, there's no call for a BO to email a boarder about what they don't like unless there's potential for real abuse or neglect. Of course, if they want such a "clause" in the agreement, that's up to the BO and the paying boarders. More power to 'em.

As for how you handled Noah's behavior, well done. Exactly how I would have handled it. Bravo!


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## nrhareiner

HorsesAreForever said:


> Obviously the pushyness of your horse is who ever was handleing him fault. NOT parelli's. Its called defending you space! It really aggravates me when people blame whats wrong with there horse all because they did parelli for two weeks......
> 
> That horse is NOT bored in Kellys video, hes very much engaged in the tasks shes asking him to do and RELAXED!!!!!!!!! So many people get RELAXED and bored in the same boat... obviously you dont seem many calm horses.
> 
> My horse stands for mounting and when I tack her up heres a video of bridleing tacking up and getting on her.. idk it just kinda shows you its not because of parelli... I hope I dont regret posting this... Dont mind the begining of the spin it was just experimenting with it.
> 
> YouTube - Just things.
> 
> Shes 6 years old and basically on had parelli training except for a few months of traditional with me in teh begining. so Its not because of parelli..


The thing is it is Parelli that is the problem. Most of the Perelli people can not get past the you need to be friends with your horse mentality. My horses are not my friends. They are horses they have a job to do and I give them the tools to do that job and do it well and they enjoy that leadership I provide them.

Also how long had you been riding that horse in the video???


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## kitten_Val

nrhareiner said:


> The thing is it is Parelli that is the problem. Most of the Perelli people *can not get past the you need to be friends with your horse mentality.*


I actually have to disagree with you on that. I'm not in any way Parelli fan, but my horses ARE my friends.  I discipline them if needed, but I do give treats "just because" and let them rub on me (gently) and so on. I don't think it has anything to do with trust and respect.


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## luvmyperch

Thank you to the last two posters. Another tid bit I forgot to mention, is that in the email from my BO, she also made a comment about how she, her husband, and her daughter have been spending LOADS of time working with him, so any improvements I'm seeing is coming from that. And, he'll be much better with people who handle him less frequently. Umm, she just told me that he is getting worse because of the halter. Now she's saying that the improvements I'm seeing is because they're spending so much time with him? I spend three hours a day, five days a week with him. But, because I'm not practicing Parelli with him, they fail to see any of that time as time spent actually working with him. They CAN"T see past Parelli. That is the problem! There is no talk about NH methods, it's ONLY Parelli methods. When I do ask for their advice on specific issues, they can't give me an answer or any suggestions to apply practically, everything is broad philosophical ideas. Don't get me wrong, they are not bad horsepeople and I don't disrespect their opinions. However, you have to be willing to try a variety of methods to see what works with a particular horse.


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## nrhareiner

Personally unless I was paying them to train my horse which I would not. I would respectfully tell them that out side of leading him back and forth from the pasture to the barn no to do anything with him. That is not their place. Also make sure they know how YOU wish for them to respond when he acts up when they are taking him in and out. That way everything is consistent.

Again that is YOUR way not theirs. Keep in mind he is your horse and you are paying them to board him not train or anything more. At least that is what I get from what you are saying. You are the customer.


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## kitten_Val

luvmyperch said:


> And, he'll be much better with people who handle him less frequently.


That sounds like BS to me. Lol! Personally, I think all this has nothing to do with Parelli (or any other  ) methods, but with the fact those people don't know what they are doing. 

That reminds me of the barn I used to keep my horses before I moved them to my place. The owner was very nice, but didn't know much about the horses. She watched all those videos, RTV, etc. and THOUGHT she does, but unfortunately she run into some really dangerous situations not only for the horse, but for herself actually. After she tried to put halter on my unhandled horse (just because I could do it) I told her not to deal with either of them at all. Took me like 30 mins to calm the horse down.


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## luvmyperch

Sorry this thread was hijacked! I didn't mean to turn the thread into my own personal experience. Last comment about it... Last week I found an awesome barn 8 miles from home (the parelli barn where he is now is 23 miles), with an indoor, several other senior horses, small quiet place, lessons included, the feed that I want him to be on, lots of turn-out, 12x14 stall in a brand new barn (he even has a dutch door to the pasture), and the BO and I are completely on the same page when it comes to caring for and working with horses. I just spoke with her again and he's moving 11/8. Problem solved!!


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## kitten_Val

luvmyperch said:


> Sorry this thread was hijacked! I didn't mean to turn the thread into my own personal experience. Last comment about it... Last week I found an awesome barn 8 miles from home (the parelli barn where he is now is 23 miles), with an indoor, several other senior horses, small quiet place, lessons included, the feed that I want him to be on, lots of turn-out, 12x14 stall in a brand new barn (he even has a dutch door to the pasture), and the BO and I are completely on the same page when it comes to caring for and working with horses. I just spoke with her again and he's moving 11/8. Problem solved!!


Congrats! Sounds like a great place.


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## luvmyperch

Yeah, I just have to assure my fiance that we won't go broke covering the board! I don't mind living on hot dogs & mac-n-cheese!!!


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## nrhareiner

luvmyperch said:


> Sorry this thread was hijacked! I didn't mean to turn the thread into my own personal experience. Last comment about it... Last week I found an awesome barn 8 miles from home (the parelli barn where he is now is 23 miles), with an indoor, several other senior horses, small quiet place, lessons included, the feed that I want him to be on, lots of turn-out, 12x14 stall in a brand new barn (he even has a dutch door to the pasture), and the BO and I are completely on the same page when it comes to caring for and working with horses. I just spoke with her again and he's moving 11/8. Problem solved!!



Sounds good.


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## Spirithorse

I really need to get a video up of me working with my warmblood.....that way you can see what Parelli TRULY is. If there is a problem, it's due to the handling, not the program. The program works, I've been doing it for years and don't have the slightest bit of difficulty with any horse I work with. Anyone can immitate Parelli (a lot of trainers have), but to be good at it you need to EMULATE.....that way you know WHY you're doing what you're doing. That's the difference.


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## nrhareiner

Spirithorse said:


> If there is a problem, it's due to the handling, not the program.


This is true for any type of training any program. I show both stallions and mares. I use good common seance as dose the trainers I use. If you insist on respect and you are the leader there are very few horses who will not work for you. Problem I have with Parelli along with a lot of off the self trainers is that people who are new to horses think they can learn from them and do not need any real life help. This is the big problem. Most of the people who can get these methods to work and work fairly well have experience out side of Parelli or others.

It goes back to practice dose NOT make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. If you are not practicing correctly it does not matter what you do or what program you use.


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## Spirithorse

The only help I have had with my journey in the Parelli program is 2 clinics and 2 lessons. That's it. All of which have been in the past couple years. All the rest of my learning came from the Levels packs, the Savvy Club DVDs and magazines, anything I learned at their tour stops, but most of all from my own work with my horse. They gave me the concepts, now it's up to me to become an independent learner and experiment. If I become an independent learner, and I can think systematically, then I can fix any problem when it arises and I won't need the help of anyone else....because they gave me the tools on how to be a problem solver, but most importantly, a problem preventer. I will say that I do feel I am a very good student, I don't just watch things, I study it, I watch things WAY more than once. I don't take learning how to be a horse-woman lightly, I'm very serious about it. I want to be the best me I can be for my horse, I want to be able to develop him to higher levels of performance and do it with grace and lightness.....and for him to have a smile on his face the whole time.


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## Spyder

Spirithorse said:


> The only help I have had with my journey in the Parelli program is 2 clinics and 2 lessons. That's it. All of which have been in the past couple years. All the rest of my learning came from the Levels packs, the Savvy Club DVDs and magazines, anything I learned at their tour stops, but most of all from my own work with my horse. They gave me the concepts, now it's up to me to become an independent learner and experiment. If I become an independent learner, and I can think systematically, then I can fix any problem when it arises and I won't need the help of anyone else....because they gave me the tools on how to be a problem solver, but most importantly, a problem preventer. I will say that I do feel I am a very good student, I don't just watch things, I study it, I watch things WAY more than once. I don't take learning how to be a horse-woman lightly, I'm very serious about it. I want to be the best me I can be for my horse, I want to be able to develop him to higher levels of performance and do it with grace and lightness.....and for him to have a smile on his face the whole time.


My point is that you can accomplish all you have just said without ever having seen a single Parelli DVD or gone to a single Parelli clinic.

Or use any horsenality chart.


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## HorsesAreForever

What do you mean how long have I been riding my horse?? Ive owned her for almost 2 years now, and she was only saddle broke. not broke to ride when I got her... So the only training shes got was from me which means Parelli... 
Shes been broke for about a whole year now and w.t.c lead changing jumping up to 2'6. Rides with just a halter or a bridle. She can keep any pace you ask even with no contact on teh reins. Will even hold a head set. 

I posted that video to show that its not so much parelli that caused the horses bad manners. Because Chance is one of the best mannered horses in my barn besides the older lesson horses. [Im at a 1/2 parelli 1/2 tradional barn]

.. I KNOW theres more out there and I've played with a lot of them and parelli works for me. Chance has been opened to everything from Art Of Natural Dressage, John Lyons, CA, Parelli, and just plain traditional. I ALWAYS came back to parelli because thats where I got the most feed back. For me its hard to stay with the program because I want more faster but I KNOW if I follow the program and just keep my goals more at the back of my mind I will make it. 

Im hopefully about to be a Level 3 student soon. 

*SpiritHorse* you HAVE to get that video. I have nothing to show that would even compare to that I bet so I would much rather have you do that part lol. 

Theres more to parelli then just some stick and string and dvd's. 

Also the only help I've had is DVD's and one lesson from Kelly sigler and of course supporting friends. My friend whos a total traditional is letting me work with his draft mare because hes seen a HUGE difference in Chance. 3 people who use to see me work with Chance in the begining even admitted she use to be insane.. and there mouths drop when they see her today. Even what I look back I just cant believe it. 

MAYBE I could have done all this the traditional way .. or CA or any of those guys.. but its not what felt right..


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## RadHenry09

I enjoy playing with my horse, I think that it is great that when I walk out to get my horse his ears go up and he meets me halfway : ) I have used the Parelli program mostly with the online and some liberty work. I think our relationship has grown leaps and bounds since working with the program. 
I dont even use my stick that much to tell you the truth....
My Mustang was very reactive but now instead of reacting he looks to me as if to say , should I be concerned and if I am not concerned he is fine.
I think that whole concept made more sense to me after I started using Parelli.

I dont discount other trainers , I try to read , watch & learn everything that I can. There really isnt any Parelli friendly places close to where I live but there are a few NH trainers. There are a lot of traditional instructors in my area but I feel that I dont share the same goals as they do so most of the time I do go it a lone.
It may be taking me longer than someone else to get where it is I want to go but that is ok , I am not going anywhere : )

As far as the money marketing concept that can be said with any kind of trainer...there are books, clinics , better ropes etc....and if someone will buy them they will still sell them. I have heard time and time again that you can do all the training with regular halters, longe whips etc...but the feel may be off and it may take you longer achieve the results. I used the CA halter with the extra knots for a long time and sometime I still do , but I was told by another trainer that my Parelli halter was too harsh too! : o


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## RadHenry09

"It goes back to practice dose NOT make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect."

I do agree with this ....


Did you know that this is what Pat Parelli actually says and encourages his students to do as well?


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## RadHenry09

Spirithorse, 
I know that I would love to see you with your horse, I feel that you really are on your game and know the program very well : )


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## paintsrule

I like the basics of Parelli and how they help you connect with your horse at a deep level (for certain horses at least NOT all) but i dont agree at all with the prices i can get a "string" and a "stick" at an auction or something if i really wanted to practice the method. What i REALLY dont agree with though is the all love no correction thing. Sometimes repremending is needed. Take the lady asking for advice on her biting horse for instance...a carrot (like was advised by the "master" himself) is not going to save her horses behaviour in this situation, only correction, probably a well timed whack. A carrot stick will also not save her unless of course she bobs him on the nose with it (sorta kidding) 
Thats one of the reasons i completly agree with people saying you need to mix and match methods and maybe make your own if they are GOOD and will bring about POSITIVE results. 
On the helmet issue, I think it is a persons choice whether or not to use one but unfortunatly with the huge amount of addicted followers of Linda and Parelli people will stop making legit choices and only follow their "leaders".
I do commend people who have done Parelli well -claps for you- I'm not gonna preach to you not to or say your not good horse people but I think you need to expand your methods also, I'm sorry but horses will spook, deny certain training, and you will get the odd ball horse you decides to make a 5th horsanality all his own, JMHO! 
Sorry if i totally repeated what others have said.


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## Spirithorse

Thanks HAF and RadHenry  I will start working on that video. I'll have to get my computer-wiz of a cousin to show me how to get it on YouTube because I am CLUELESS on that! lol. I will get it though!

There are many ways to train a horse. But I ask myself, "How many of those ways are good for the horse?" A lot of them are very convinient for US, for several reasons, but it's not necessarily the best for the horse. Then there are those that are pretty good, however from what I know, I see holes in other programs, so I choose to not follow that....not because I necessarily disagree with them, just because I'm following a program that offers more. For me, I have not seen another program that offers the kind of in-depth information Parelli does. I do plan on showing in Dressage and Jumping eventually, and I already have my mentors picked out whom I will learn from because they follow the same principles I do. These mentors will further my knowledge of biomechanics and sport-specific ideas, all the while maintaining the principles I follow. Personally, I can't ask for anything better than that!  And like I've said before, my horse will tell me if I'm doing something wrong and so far he isn't protesting.


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## Spirithorse

Oh, and for those who think Parelli is all lovey-dovey-never-get-firm-with-a-horse kinda program, you are SO wrong! lol. You should have seen Pat himself with my horse at the Celebration. He was FIRM BUT FAIR and the result was my horse putting more effort into things, his play drive came up and his entire demeanor changed for the better. You HAVE to balance your Drive and Draw, that was my big lesson at the Celebration.


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## HorsesAreForever

SpiritHorse Im SOOO glad your on this forum! !


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## RadHenry09

^^ I agree ...I think that she is a prime example of "doing Parelli" the right way and she understands the concepts very well. IMO, she could be a willing Parelli student's mentor...: )


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## Spirithorse

Awww thanks guys!


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## wild_spot

> But I ask myself, "How many of those ways are good for the horse?"


And again, we see the attitude that alienates so many from Parelli. Those who do things differently aren't doing the right thing by their horses.


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## nrhareiner

wild_spot said:


> And again, we see the attitude that alienates so many from Parelli. Those who do things differently aren't doing the right thing by their horses.


 I have to agree with this. You say your horse meets you 1/2 way and perks up. Heck every horse I own except my 29yo broodmare meets me at the gate ready to put their head in their halter. Not a rope halter but a regular old nylon halter. They are more then willing and eager to go to work. They have great work ethics. I can pull any one of them including my stallion out of the pasture even after a year of not riding toss a saddle on and do any thing with them. From the show horses to the greenies. They except the saddle with out having to be presented with the blanket and saddle before hand. They eat the bit with out being asked. They love to work they love to go and show. They have proven in front of their peers that they know their job and do it well. There is a tangible result for their training.

There is no one right or wrong way to train a horse. What I find off about a lot of the off the shelf trainers is that the people who get into all of that stuff seem to get off track in some ways. I have no problem with people who want to work with and train their horses. I start all mine and once they are done showing with the trainer I maintain them and show them myself. However for me. The proof is in the pudding so to speak. I want to see with an unbiased eye by some one who is accredited in my discipline to evaluate what my horse can do. I understand that not everyone wants that. However when it comes down to it that is the only way do evaluate your horse against anouther horse in that event and then down the road prove it. So for me as a breeder I find that very very important. Again if all you wish to do is ride. Then this might not be important. Have fun and enjoy. Just know that down the road if you need to find a new human for your horse he/she might now work every well for them.


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## HorsesAreForever

I only present the saddle to my horse to be like hey im putting this on your back now... rather then just hauling it up there with out warning.... I want her to know exactly what going on her. I like to interact with my horse instead of having her just stand there like a bump on a log while I do all these things to her! She loves it as well, she will touch and sniff and try and mouth everything and idc because its her exploring and seeing whats what. See if she was being mean and pushing me around or using her teeth all of it would be stopped right then but shees very careful with what she does.


Do you know how many horses ive seen when given the chance to smell and see and touch teh saddle are AFRAID of it.. and even though they have had it put on there back for who knows how many years! Its sad.


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## Spirithorse

wild_spot said:


> And again, we see the attitude that alienates so many from Parelli. Those who do things differently aren't doing the right thing by their horses.


Where did I say everyone else is wrong? I didn't. I said there are ways that are not good for the horse, and ways that are pretty good for the horse, I just see some holes and choose not to follow. People like Denis Reis and John Lyons. I have a lot of respect for both of them, they really love their horses and their horses love them back, but their systems seem incomplete to me. But that doesn't mean I say that they aren't out there trying to make the world better for horses. It just means _I chose to follow someone else because it feels complete._


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## Spirithorse

HorsesAreForever said:


> I only present the saddle to my horse to be like hey im putting this on your back now... rather then just hauling it up there with out warning.... I want her to know exactly what going on her. I like to interact with my horse instead of having her just stand there like a bump on a log while I do all these things to her! She loves it as well, she will touch and sniff and try and mouth everything and idc because its her exploring and seeing whats what. See if she was being mean and pushing me around or using her teeth all of it would be stopped right then but shees very careful with what she does.
> 
> 
> Do you know how many horses ive seen when given the chance to smell and see and touch teh saddle are AFRAID of it.. and even though they have had it put on there back for who knows how many years! Its sad.


Absolutely. It's always a good idea to allow your horse to sniff the pad and saddle before throwing it up there. It's asking the horse's permission. It's the difference between tolorance and acceptance.


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## FGRanch

I am not a PP follower, but my horses still willing ACCEPT the saddle. If it's sitting the fence they all go up and play with it, pulling on the straps etc. 

My training methods are a little bit of everything from some NH on to common sense. My horses all wait at the gate for me. Actually when I'm riding on the other riding horses all stand at the fence waiting for their turn. They enjoy being worked because I always make it enjoyable for them with out using strictly PP methods. 

Truly I have no issues with his training methods, but they way he goes about things. I also strongly dislike the way his followers try to shove it down my thoart and tell me what I'm doing wrong, I never tell any PP followers that what they are doing is wrong. 

I have to agree with every single word that NRHAreiner said.


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## nrhareiner

Spirithorse said:


> Where did I say everyone else is wrong? I didn't. I said there are ways that are not good for the horse, and ways that are pretty good for the horse, I just see some holes and choose not to follow. People like Denis Reis and John Lyons. I have a lot of respect for both of them, they really love their horses and their horses love them back, but their systems seem incomplete to me. But that doesn't mean I say that they aren't out there trying to make the world better for horses. It just means _I chose to follow someone else because it feels complete._


See that is just it. You are following his system. To me that is just like following a cult. There are many ways to train a horse and keep it happy and willing to work. Why limit yourself to one type of training. To me NH is a great way to train. However once you put a price tag on it and say this is how you must do it and set a program you fall off the reservation.


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## Spirithorse

But why should I change what I'm doing when what I'm doing is working wonderfully?


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## JustDressageIt

My problem with PP: a lot of the "followers" feel that it's the Parelli way or it's the highway, that you can't mix PP with any other training method or it will get confused. I completely disagree. I think the PP method is a good method, but it shouldn't be the only training method a person has in their arsenal. It is not the be-all, end-all of training. It is one means of training, and should not be viewed as anything but. 
Anyone who relies on only one training method (be it Parelli, Lyons, or even one "conventional" method, etc) is unbalanced... I prefer exploring ALL the different options so you have as much in your "training toolbox" as possible.


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## FGRanch

I like that Allie "Taining Toolbox!" Good one!


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## JustDressageIt

FehrGroundRanch said:


> I like that Allie "Taining Toolbox!" Good one!


Gail used that term all the time - "Here's another one for your Training Toolbox!" and "why not do that? It'll be great to add to your Training Toolbox!"

Another one of my favorite sayings of hers: "Off like a herd of turtles."


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## nrhareiner

Spirithorse said:


> But why should I change what I'm doing when what I'm doing is working wonderfully?


It is great that it works for you. However you need to realize that what I do works for me and my horses. I use a bit of everything. You also need to keep in mind that if for what ever reason you might need to sell your horse down. You are really limiting yourself as to who may buy the horse.

As to why I do not show or let my horse sniff the saddle when I am saddling them. They get to do that whey I am first introducing them to the saddle but once they get to the point where they know what it going on about 5-10 rides depending on the horse sometimes less I stop showing them. Now they do see my coming with the saddle but past that nothing. I also do not just lightly put it up there. Out side of the breeding shed I have no routine for any of my horses from feeding times to anything. That way when it changes they do not have a problem with it. I learned that the hard way many many years ago. The more ways you do something the better broke the horse gets. Anyone can ride any of my finished horses from my stallions to my mares from kids and beginners to open level riders. Again the more that ride them the better broke they get.


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## HorsesAreForever

I mix a few methods here and there with PNH. And I dont think people should do parelli just because I do it or it doesn't work for them! Im only defending what I believe works not that others dont. John Lyons deff started me and Chance off then I tried traditional which we got really far in training but then it just didnt feel right to ME! So I looked for something more which is where I found PP and because I wasnt doing it right for the first month I thought it was crap and never did it again and fiddled around with AND CA and traditional but Chance wasn't getting any further. So I decided to go further with parelli and we made A LOT of progress once I moved to a more parelli barn and had some help and more support. But yes me and Chance made progress with other programs so NO its not teh only way. if other methods work for you thats AWESOME keep it up!  Im still fooling around with what works 100% for me and Chance and I just keep coming back to parelli. 

I really am not trying to tell people to do parelli. Only defending what works for ME not for you or anyone else .. me! 

And the only thing that frusterates me is that people say its for beginners and what not.. I've worked with horses for almost 9years now... so I am no way a beginner. When I started it it was about 2 years ago... still wasn't a beginner.. I was looking for a different path to follow. The level 1 pack is for people who need to find the leadership they need for
there horses.


With Chance you can put it up there gently or just swing it up there she doesnt care. Same with a western saddle because I CANT gently put it up there LOL! But I still like her to know that its going on her back. But I PERFER to TRY and put it up there lightly!


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## RadHenry09

"You say your horse meets you 1/2 way and perks up. Heck every horse I own except my 29yo broodmare meets me at the gate ready to put their head in their halter. Not a rope halter but a regular old nylon halter. They are more then willing and eager to go to work. They have great work ethics. I can pull any one of them including my stallion out of the pasture even after a year of not riding toss a saddle on and do any thing with them. From the show horses to the greenies. They except the saddle with out having to be presented with the blanket and saddle before hand. They eat the bit with out being asked. They love to work they love to go and show. They have proven in front of their peers that they know their job and do it well. There is a tangible result for their training."

nrahreiner:
I guess that was directed to me....I think that is great , you are a very skilled horse person who devotes a lot to your trainer/riding endeavors.
I dont use the rope halter all the time on my horses and what time I do put in to them I put 100 percent into it. Everybodys situations are different and I do what I can with my schedule and family obligations.
Kudos to you and what you can achieve that is great!


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## Jolly Badger

In direct response to the question. . .my thoughts on Parelli? Errrr. . .

As for the man himself, I don't doubt that he has a good grasp of horse behavior and that he is able to use his knowledge to build a trusting relationship with the horses he trains. 

I just think that he probably got caught up in all of the popularity, and then pressure to come up with a way to package and sell his method of "training" as a DIY kit for novice riders and inexperienced horse owners. Since then, whether it was his intention or not, Pat has managed to create an almost cult-like following.

Now, I've been around horses for about twenty years and during that time I have done a lot of shopping for various types of horse equipment. So, I have a pretty good idea of the average costs for some of the basic items, what is quality and what is just priced higher because of the brand name. Then again, people like me are not part of the target audience for the people marketing Pat Parelli, or other trainers like him. 

The novice, nervous, unconfident horse owners are much more easy to convince that they absolutely cannot properly train their horse unless they spend $39 for that Parelli rope halter, even though perfectly good rope halters can be bought for less than half that price at the local feed store. 

They have no problem with handing over $62 for a genuine Parelli "carrot stick," $21 for a 6' length of yacht rope, $66 for 12' of yacht rope with a metal clip on the end, $93 for a 22' line (in my silly, ignorant little non-Parelli world, we call these lunge lines. . .and we can buy a 25' line for under $10, but what do we know?). 

Oh, and then prepare to fork over $73 for rope reins (plus another $55 for the leather straps to attach the reins to the bit - the bit is an additional $42-90 for a basic snaffle). Oh, but we can't forget the $379 "cradle bridle," $399 saddle pad, $264 bareback pad, not to mention all of the shirts, hats, coats, bags, and other items covered with the Parelli logo.

But don't worry, because for $20-100 per month you can purchase a membership in the Savvy club and get discounted rates on most of those items. 

For those who still have some money left over, you still need to buy the instructional videos and attend clinics and demonstrations to see the master (or one of his students) at work. 

Then you can pack into an arena and "ooh" and "ahhh" with the other followers as you watch Linda Parelli flop around on Remmer's back like a rubber chicken while Walter Zettl kisses her butt and tells her how wonderful she is doing.



 The audience gasps and applauds at everything Linda does, as if it is the most brilliant thing they've ever seen. I know there are dressage riders on this forum and elsewhere who will recall some of the not-so-positive things Pat and Linda had to say about the sport of dressage. Now they're suddenly playing nice and trying to appeal to dre$$age riders. . .hmmm. . .can't imagine why. . .($$$).:wink:

As I was reading through this thread, I saw the names Karen and David O'Connor mentioned and I have seen clips on YouTube of them jumping bridleless during a Parelli gathering. Well, that's great and all, but at one point someone seemed to be trying to claim that Karen and David O'Conner "did Parelli." And I had to giggle. 

I really, really doubt that Karen and David got where they are today by shaking carrot sticks at their horses, or by going to Parelli clinics and watching his DVDs in order to learn more about the different "horsenalities." 

About the "helmet" comments from the Parelli staff. . .pathetic. I don't think the O'Connors subscribe to the idea that a person shouldn't get on a horse if they think they _need_ to wear a helmet, or that just having a "well-trained" horse will make helmets totally unnecessary. Even the calmest, quietest, most even-tempered and well-trained horse can take a bad step or slip on wet grass while galloping cross-country (



), or misjudge the distance before a fence and send its rider flying.

The O'Connors became excellent riders and horsepeople through years and years of ongoing practice and competition, and that includes falling off, breaking bones and collapsing lungs and all kinds of things. They didn't get all of their Olympic and Pan Am Game medals by sitting around their back pastures "playing the seven games."

If you've never read it, I highly recommend the O'Connor's book _Life in the Galloping Lane_. In this following exerpt, David tells about the cross-country riding trip he went on with his mother and brother when he was only eleven years old. I mean, literally cross-country: from Virginia to Oregon.Book Excerpt: Life in the Galloping Lane

So, my "thoughts" on Parelli are that he may know his stuff, but he's more about making money, showing off and impressing his audience by having horses do circus tricks.

As for some of the hardcore Kool Aid-drinking Parelli followers I've encountered. . .don't even get me started.


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## Marecare

Yeah but Jolly Badger,
What do you really think?


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## Spirithorse

It's so wonderful to see that those of us who choose to follow Parelli are indirectly criticized and told we are fools....gee, the horse world is so supportive.


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## nrhareiner

Well you know what they say about fools and their money...?????

Not directed at any one person. Just saying.


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## Spirithorse

I don't care what "they" say, I'm coming from a common courtesy point of view. You don't see me going around indirectly calling people fools simply because they follow something different.


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## nrhareiner

Ha if you want to pay all that money for a stick and a string and a lunge line when you get get the same thing for less. Who am I to tell you that you should not. However do not expect that I am going to come running for a parreli trained horse when it comes time to sell one. There is an add on my local CraigsList for a horse. Was interested in the horse right up to the point they said it has Parreli training. Sorry do not care what the horses price is or what he maybe able to do.


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## Spirithorse

Who said I buy my stuff directly from Parelli? I have a friend who makes the exact same stuff Parelli does, out of the same material, for MUCH less. I buy everything from him and anyone who wants Parelli equipment I tell them about him. And there is a real reason why Pat uses the materials he does. Sure, I have their DVDs and I'm in the Savvy Club, but I have never once thought it was a waste of money because it's made me the horse person I am today and all I know is that the success I have with my own personal horses and every other horse I work with is directly linked to what I've learned in the Parelli program. So if me having success with horses using the Parelli program makes me a fool, well, I'd like to know what that makes people who have daily struggles with horses using whatever other method they follow.


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## Marecare

The majority of the threads on this section of the forum seem to be about PP and I would like to say that given the choice of no training at all a aimlessly wandering around the horse world and trying things out here and there,A person could rack up a lot of mistakes and cost.

The Parelli program is just a method and it does not bother me at all.
It is there for folks to enjoy and learn about horses and it is just fine for introducing people to the horse world.

What does bother me is people need to keep bashing it over and over and over on every single thread.
There are SO many other trainers and clinicians to talk about,but the topic ALWAYS ends up right here over and over and over again.

I think everyone in the free world and the horse world knows the PP halter cost 15 buck more than you can get it at e-bay ...SOOOO what!
Talk about the CONTENT of the message for a while so I don't die of boredom please!


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## Spirithorse

This section of the forum should be about NH and for those of us who actually follow it or for those who are interested in learning more about it. For some reason people who don't follow NH or who disagree with it keep posting negative comments and starting fights and hijacking threads (some of which have been my own, see the Horsenality thread). To those people, I say take your negativity elsewhere because input from you is not encouraged.


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## eventerdrew

To each their own =] Do I follow Parelli? not even close. But will I antagonize or criticize those who do? no. It's like the Warmblood debate...it won't get you anywhere! I agree with Spirithorse in saying that this NH board is for those who follow NH, not for those who want to trash it. *not directed at anyone. just what I have observed over numerous threads*


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## nrhareiner

You have to remember that PP is not NH. He is just a person who has found a way to market it. My problem with PP is that. Not the NH as a method of training. I use NH a lot. However I have not and will not pay for what PP is marketing and I have been around enough horses who have supposedly been trained with the PP method that I will never have one here. I have even sent home mares here to be bred not only to my stallions but to outside stallions who where supposedly trained using PP methods. 

People with PP trained horses out on the trails whos horses are uncontrollable. Yet they are out there ridding them with out a saddle or bridle b/c that is the way PP dose it. Making it dangourous for everyone out there. Riders coming off and horses running off.

It is great that some people have success with PP methouds. However that is not truly the majority of the people who follow like a cult.

If it works for you and your horse is well trained and can actually work out in the big bad world with out putting others in jepordy. Great. Wish others who are part of the PP cult could say the same.


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## Jolly Badger

Spirithorse said:


> It's so wonderful to see that those of us who choose to follow Parelli are indirectly criticized and told we are fools....gee, the horse world is so supportive.


While, at the same time, there are the die-hard Parelli devotees who absolutely cannot accept other types of training, and openly criticize those of us who don't buy into the hype or know all of the "lingo." 

But, to be fair, there are also die-hard John Lyons, Monty Roberts, Clinton Anderson, etc. followers with the same mentality. And there are people who are so convinced of their chosen breed or discipline's "superiority" that they are openly snobbish about it.

It's just that there seems to be a much higher percentage of that behavior within the NH world, with Parelli's followers leading the way.


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## Jolly Badger

Spirithorse said:


> It's so wonderful to see that those of us who choose to follow Parelli are indirectly criticized and told we are fools....gee, the horse world is so supportive.


This topic asked for people's thoughts on Parelli. I gave mine. 

No, I don't think that _all_ people who use his methods of training are fools. And I realize that there are people who know better than to spend $90 on a glorified lunge line, that they could buy from Country Supply for $8. Part of my inability to respect Parelli is the fact that he continues to take advantage of the people who _don't _know any better. 

There _are_ the die-hard Parelli devotees who absolutely cannot accept other types of training. I have personally met and talked to people who think that being a Parelli student gives them some kind of secret, magical insight into horses. 

The only "truth" that those die-hard followers know is what comes from the Parelli program, so (of course) those of us who don't use Parelli lingo can't possibly know anything. Some even go so far as to label anything non-Parelli as "abusive." 

Generally, throughout the horse industry, there are people who are so convinced of their chosen breed or discipline's "superiority" that they are quite snobbish about it. Even within the disciplines and breeds, individual well-known riders or trainers will endorse a specific product, or come out with a product line of their own with ridiculous price tags, and people mindlessly fork over the money.

It's just that there seems to be a much higher percentage of that behavior within the NH world. Not just the Parelli fans, but also die-hard John Lyons, Monty Roberts, Clinton Anderson, PonyBoy, etc. followers with the same mentality. If you aren't following _their _favorite trainer's program, you're doing it all wrong. 

I am absolutely _not_ against the idea of training horses by working _with_ them by building a relationship of trust. To me, it's just about basic common sense and learning how to interpret an animal's body language, how they interact with each other, and then applying what you know to an individual horse. 

That, I think, is the original idea behind "natural" horsemanship. But then "trainers" like Parelli come in, junk it up with carrot sticks and savvy strings, over-complicate the simplest things with new terms and phrases, "wow" their audiences with bareback and bridleless demonstrations and useless circus tricks, and then package and sell it as though it was all _their_ original idea.


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## Marecare

Although I agree with the basic premise of your statements Jolly badger,
I feel that it comes across a bit angry in your posts.

Many of these people are at an introductory level to horsemanship(even if they don't think so) and these clinicians are guiding there entry through RFD TV,tapes,and books.
They may buy a horse,a saddle, and maybe some training along the way.

The industry needs their interest and involvement.
The breeders need the buyers.
The tack makers need the customers.

Not every horse owner wants to spend years learning all the fine points of training and people like PP and Clinton have come up with a nice step by step process to own a horse.
It is kind of like "Paint by the numbers".


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## Hali

I think Parelli is an excellent horseman and a clever business man. I think that his ground games can be a great foundation for a human/horse bond, but I do agree that you can buy non-Parelli products at a fraction of the cost that do the same thing.


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## Madyson

Wow. 

If the Parelli's told you to jump of a bridge, would you? No, not if you had common sense.

In fact, if anyone but God told me to jump off a bridge, I wouldn't. Now, when I say this, I am not trying to bring religion into the subject whatsoever. I'm saying that just about nobody would have enough influence in me, to make me do something that didn't make sense.

So, when the Parelli's say something that doesn't make sense to you, don't do it! So therefore, it's not the Parelli's fault when an idiot follows idiot advice (I'm NOT saying that all of the Parelli's advice is idiotic, because I, personally, like their method). It's the idiot's fault for following idiot advice. That's like saying, that everything you hear and say is true.

(Please note that I didn't read the whole topic, so if what I said didn't have to do with what everyone's discussing now, that'd be why.)


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## Spirithorse

Yes, if a person does something prematurally while so happening following the Parelli program is NOT Parelli's fault. That person just isn't using his/her head. Parelli shouldn't be held responsible for people's idiocy.


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## Misfit

But by the same token, those of us who choose not to do parelli get told that we're abusive and don't understand our horses. 

It goes both ways sparky.


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## nrhareiner

Misfit said:


> But by the same token, those of us who choose not to do parelli get told that we're abusive and don't understand our horses.
> 
> It goes both ways sparky.


I see this a lot. Thing is if you even mark a horse just even a scratch in my discipline you get DQ right on the spot. You have to drop bit to the judge and they wall all around the horse and look.

Horses that are not happy in their work do not show well and do not score well. It shows in the ring. My horses love their jobs so must be doing something correctly.


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## Spirithorse

I personally have never called someone abusive for not doing Parelli. All of my Parelli friends have never called someone abusive for that matter. I actually haven't met one Parelli person who has ever said that, come to think of it. I'm not saying those idiots aren't out there, but I think they are the minority.

As for horses who don't like their work placing in the show ring......I've been to PLENTY of shows (western and english, different breed shows, etc) and a lot of the horses who have won the class either had a miserable look on their face or they were a flighty mess and the only reason they were so animated was because they were scared out of their minds and being held back by the riders. At one breed show I actually cried because of what I was seeing in those horse's faces. So no, happy horses don't always win. However, I have seen horse and rider teams win that absolutely deserved it, the horse was happy, the rider was well educated and it was nice to watch.


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## SavvyHearts

I have never encountered a Parelli student that would openly bash someone else...maybe some that are strong voiced that will say right out whether or not they think it's right, but never saying "If you don't do Parelli you are abusing your horse and dont understand anything the horse is trying to tell you" and never once read it on here. 

I have definitely met ALOT of people that treat their horse right aren't Parelli students but I've also known some of those same people, if they are mad because the horse did something, they take it out on the horse (when it was entirely their fault). Now I am in NO way saying everyone does this (wanted to say since I'm sure someone would come back saying well I don't do this). I'm thankful that most of my friends share the same thoughts as I do, and only have a couple friends that don't, but are supportive of what I do. So I have not been around alot non-Parelli people, but the ones I am I definitely will say that their horses are happy until something happens.

But nrhareiner I will say that the horse in your avatar looks happy in his (or her? lol) job as the ears are up and the sliding stop looks clean (from what I can tell) you will not get that from an unhappy horse...especially not the ears up!


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## Spirithorse

^^ Absolutely. I, too, have non-Parelli friends and I love them to death and their horses are happy (until something happens like SavvyHearts said in her post). They are supportive of me and I am supportive of them. One friend wanted me to go with her to a dressage show she was entered in for support. I of course went to support my friend in her ventures with dressage, and she ended up doing very well (after some previous issues that involved my intervention, but that's another story!). She rode him beautifully and won the class. I was so happy for her.


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## gypsygirl

i guess i have had only negative experiences with people who use/follow parelli.

we have a parelli barn in my area. the people there dont believe that grass is safe for most horses. the horses live outside 24/7 [which is fine] BUT they live on narrow dirt tracks so they move around more like they would in nature [?!?!?!??!!] the water is also at the corner & some of the horses are too afraid to get up there. the horses eat moldy, poor quality hay all day & seriously look like they are starving & wormy [people driving past often call the authorities bc the horses look abused] they also refuse to put shoes on ANY horse. i understand that its healthier & more natural to not have shoes, but some horses need shoes to be sound ! [like the poor navicular horses they have hobbling around] at this barn you have to sign a contract saying that if you dont put your horse first they owners can take them & 're home' them for you.

its insane

i know not all parelli followers are like this, but apparently a lot of them around here are. a lot of these people also went to parelli school, so they arent just a bunch of wackos off the street


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## Spirithorse

^^ Well I can honestly say Parelli does NOT suggest keeping your horse off grass, eating moldy hay and living in conditions like that. Pat and Linda do shoe their horses, and I personally believe, #1 that shoes aren't really necessary, and #2 that the person they use is a nut job. But that's another topic! lol. Don't get me started on their farrier......

Anyway, yes there are crazies out there and I don't associate with those people. I surround myself with positive people, and really when someone tells me they do Parelli I take it with a grain of salt. Just because you "do" something doesn't mean you "do" it well.....so I let the horse tell me everything I need to know about that person.


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## Jessabel

Like others have said, I think it started out really good and they still have some good philosophies, but it has warped into a money-making scheme. The Parellis imply the message, "Buy our merchandise and you'll have a perfect horse by tomorrow". They take advantage of newbies and spew propaganda down their throats (i.e., claiming that anything but a Parelli saddle will harm your horse. *gag*). I tried the games with Vic, and he just looked at me like I was crazy. I'm never going back to it. I also think NH in general is just a bunch of circus tricks that have a lot of "wow-factor" to beginners. I'm not really interested in being able to stand up on my horse's back, thank you.

They also have a loyal legion of disciples who think Parelli is a way of life and people who don't use NH are horse abusers. That's enough to make me run for the hills.


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## FGRanch

I think there is only one PP follower that I know that hasn't bashed people who choose not to do it. Almost everyone of you PP followers on this board has a time or two...however I'm not going to go digging back thru post (what a waste of my time) I accept that you do your thing I do mine.


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## Spirithorse

^^ I believe that statement is ridiculous. I can name 3 other Parelli followers on this board, not including myself, that have NEVER said anyone abuses their horses if they don't follow Parelli.


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## nrhareiner

gypsygirl said:


> i guess i have had only negative experiences with people who use/follow parelli.
> 
> we have a parelli barn in my area. the people there dont believe that grass is safe for most horses. the horses live outside 24/7 [which is fine] BUT they live on narrow dirt tracks so they move around more like they would in nature [?!?!?!??!!] the water is also at the corner & some of the horses are too afraid to get up there. the horses eat moldy, poor quality hay all day & seriously look like they are starving & wormy [people driving past often call the authorities bc the horses look abused] they also refuse to put shoes on ANY horse. i understand that its healthier & more natural to not have shoes, but some horses need shoes to be sound ! [like the poor navicular horses they have hobbling around] at this barn you have to sign a contract saying that if you dont put your horse first they owners can take them & 're home' them for you.
> 
> its insane
> 
> i know not all parelli followers are like this, but apparently a lot of them around here are. a lot of these people also went to parelli school, so they arent just a bunch of wackos off the street



To a large extent this would sum up my experience with Parrelli students too. However not the contract and re homing although I would bet if they thought they could get away with it they would.


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## nrhareiner

Jessabel said:


> Like others have said, I think it started out really good and they still have some good philosophies, but it has warped into a money-making scheme. The Parellis imply the message, "Buy our merchandise and you'll have a perfect horse by tomorrow". They take advantage of newbies and spew propaganda down their throats (i.e., claiming that anything but a Parelli saddle will harm your horse. *gag*). I tried the games with Vic, and he just looked at me like I was crazy. I'm never going back to it. I also think NH in general is just a bunch of circus tricks that have a lot of "wow-factor" to beginners. I'm not really interested in being able to stand up on my horse's back, thank you.
> 
> They also have a loyal legion of disciples who think Parelli is a way of life and people who don't use NH are horse abusers. That's enough to make me run for the hills.


Do not confuse Parreli with Natural horsemanship. They are really 2 different things. NH has been around for hundreds of years. PP has taken that and made a living off re naming it and selling it.


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## Spirithorse

Where are all these crazy people? lol. Perhaps we can round all of them up and put them in one designated spot where we all know to avoid lol. They aren't in my area I can tell you....like I said, I've never met any of the crazy ones.


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## Jolly Badger

Marecare said:


> Although I agree with the basic premise of your statements Jolly badger,
> I feel that it comes across a bit angry in your posts.
> 
> Many of these people are at an introductory level to horsemanship(even if they don't think so) and these clinicians are guiding there entry through RFD TV,tapes,and books.
> They may buy a horse,a saddle, and maybe some training along the way.
> 
> The industry needs their interest and involvement.
> The breeders need the buyers.
> The tack makers need the customers.
> 
> Not every horse owner wants to spend years learning all the fine points of training and people like PP and Clinton have come up with a nice step by step process to own a horse.
> It is kind of like "Paint by the numbers".


Not angry at all.

Actually, I find it more silly than anything. 

Not specifically Parelli, but any of the "fad" trainers with all of their overpriced horse training "magic wands." Every year I go up to Columbus, OH for Equine Affaire, and it seems that there are always a couple of trainers who come in and "wow" the audience with demonstrations, tricks and liberty work.

Sure, it looks cool. . .but most of us really have no need for most of those tricks. 

You can always tell which people fell for the gimmick, because later you'll see them walking around the fairground, proudly carrying some kind of overpriced horse toy, training stick, or rope with the trainer's name or logo printed all over it.

As I said, a _lot _of the people targeted by those types of trainers are already novice to begin with, so there's a greater chance that they are going to make mistakes when they try to train the horse on their own. Maybe some of the nightmarish "Parelli-trained" horses out there are so terrible to work with now because the Parelli "trainer" was completely clueless to begin with. 

Not that the blame lies entirely on the BNTs, except that they often do present their training systems as a DIY program. Things might work out better for the novice horse and its rider if they spent less money on "stuff" from their favorite BNT, and took a couple of lessons each month from a local trainer who could give them more personal instruction and advice.

Then again, I guess it might have to be someone who is already a certified "Parelli" instructor, because otherwise you have to deal with the language barrier. It's one thing for a person, such as some of those on this forum who already had some experience with horses before finding some kind of value in Parelli's methods. They had time to learn "common" terms and basic horse care, things that are generally well understood throughout the different disciplines and breeds. 

The new-to-horses Parelli followers are a different story. Many of the ones I've encountered have gained almost all of their horse knowledge (including terminology and understanding of horse behavior) from the Parelli books, newsletters, videos and clinics. It's nearly impossible to even have a "normal" conversation with them about horses, because half of what comes out of their mouth includes Parelli-created words, phrases and concepts. 

A while ago, on COTH, someone posted about a horse show they attended. A notice had been posted in the warm-up ring that lunging horses was not permitted. However, some Parelli people were there and decided to take their horses out into the arena on their long lines. When a show official asked them to leave and pointed out the "no lunging" rule, the Parelli folks replied that they were not lunging - they were "playing games.":roll:

Pure silliness, IMO.

but. . .going to stop myself now. . .like I said in previous posts, this thread is about thoughts on Parelli. . .don't even get me started on Parelli-_followers._


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## thesilverspear

While procrastinating on real work (oh... wait... like now), I looked up the Seven Games on the website, as I didn't actually know what they consisted of doing. It was all, and I mean all of it, stuff I've been doing for years and was taught to do by the "natural horsemanship" trainers I used to work with when I first bought my own horse. So that's like fifteen-ish years ago. They were not Parelli trained. If they had to ascribe their influences to anyone I reckon it would have been the Dorrances, or maybe Ray Hunt. Anyway, asking the horse to back up from a wiggly lead rope, yield its haunches, yield its forehand, leg yield on the ground, allow you to touch it wherever, etc. are all things I was taught to do as basic groundwork. Parelli just seems to have given it a clever wee name, categorized it into a more rigid series of steps, and given a different explanation as to why you do it than the one I am familiar with (these are seven games that horses play with each other to establish who is the alpha in a herd. Really? Have you ever seen one horse in a field make another horse back up thirty feet? I haven't). So my point is that he's not discovered revolutionary new training system that no one hasn't figured out; he's just presented what people were already doing in a more packaged way.


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## nrhareiner

thesilverspear said:


> While procrastinating on real work (oh... wait... like now), I looked up the Seven Games on the website, as I didn't actually know what they consisted of doing. It was all, and I mean all of it, stuff I've been doing for years and was taught to do by the "natural horsemanship" trainers I used to work with when I first bought my own horse. So that's like fifteen-ish years ago. They were not Parelli trained. If they had to ascribe their influences to anyone I reckon it would have been the Dorrances, or maybe Ray Hunt. Anyway, asking the horse to back up from a wiggly lead rope, yield its haunches, yield its forehand, leg yield on the ground, allow you to touch it wherever, etc. are all things I was taught to do as basic groundwork. Parelli just seems to have given it a clever wee name, categorized it into a more rigid series of steps, and given a different explanation as to why you do it than the one I am familiar with (these are seven games that horses play with each other to establish who is the alpha in a herd. Really? Have you ever seen one horse in a field make another horse back up thirty feet? I haven't). So my point is that he's not discovered revolutionary new training system that no one hasn't figured out; he's just presented what people were already doing in a more packaged way.



I agree this is one of my biggest problems with Parreli and even most of the other people who package this type of stuff. Now I will say that I have a few videos of different trainers. However each and every single one is a well established PROVEN trainer in my event. To pay for something that is put together by a person who has never really gone out and proven at a high level that their way really works then ask you to give them money is just beyond me. Also do not give me the agurment that the people buying the stuff do not care about showing. Showing is a way to prove by an independant sorce that what you are doing it really working and working better at least on that day then any other person and their horse.


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## savvylover112

Spirithorse said:


> Where are all these crazy people? lol. Perhaps we can round all of them up and put them in one designated spot where we all know to avoid lol. They aren't in my area I can tell you....like I said, I've never met any of the crazy ones.


Oh I can say Ihave met alot of crazy ones and it isn't pretty w if you say that you dont do parreli


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## kevinshorses

thesilverspear said:


> While procrastinating on real work (oh... wait... like now), I looked up the Seven Games on the website, as I didn't actually know what they consisted of doing. It was all, and I mean all of it, stuff I've been doing for years and was taught to do by the "natural horsemanship" trainers I used to work with when I first bought my own horse. So that's like fifteen-ish years ago. They were not Parelli trained. If they had to ascribe their influences to anyone I reckon it would have been the Dorrances, or maybe Ray Hunt. Anyway, asking the horse to back up from a wiggly lead rope, yield its haunches, yield its forehand, leg yield on the ground, allow you to touch it wherever, etc. are all things I was taught to do as basic groundwork. Parelli just seems to have given it a clever wee name, categorized it into a more rigid series of steps, and given a different explanation as to why you do it than the one I am familiar with (these are seven games that horses play with each other to establish who is the alpha in a herd. Really? Have you ever seen one horse in a field make another horse back up thirty feet? I haven't). So my point is that he's not discovered revolutionary new training system that no one hasn't figured out; he's just presented what people were already doing in a more packaged way.


Absolutely right on the money!! The people like the Dorrances and Ray Hunt (and to some degree Buck Brannaman, Curt Pate, Martin Black and others that do fewer endorsments)do what they do for the horse. Ray Hunt could have made millions of dollars selling books and videos but that wasn't important to him. His truck and trailer didn't have any sponsor stickers on them and he never sold a single piece of tack at his clinics. What he sold was the start of a better understanding of the horse. I can only think of two things that Ray endorsed, one was a rope halter and the other was a walker system that used gates to push a horse rather than a rope to lead them. At the clinic I rode in he didn't critique anyones tack or try to push his way on anyone but if you tried his way you would seek it out every time. In a sense he was teaching us to fish, whereas, the more popular clinicians are just selling fishes. When you learn the philosophy behind the technique you are much less likely to get stumped.


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## Jolly Badger

nrhareiner said:


> I agree this is one of my biggest problems with Parreli and even most of the other people who package this type of stuff. Now I will say that I have a few videos of different trainers. However each and every single one is a well established PROVEN trainer in my event. To pay for something that is put together by a person who has never really gone out and proven at a high level that their way really works then ask you to give them money is just beyond me. Also do not give me the agurment that the people buying the stuff do not care about showing. Showing is a way to prove by an independant sorce that what you are doing it really working and working better at least on that day then any other person and their horse.


Exactly!

Competitive riding doesn't particularly intrest me; I get much more enjoyment out of a day spent out on trail than all of the time and effort and money it takes to show. However, when it comes to trainers selling their advice (along with their own line of training equipment, books, DVDs) and endorsing products from big-name horse supply companies, I tend to listen more carefully to the ones who actually have personally trained horses that went on to successful show careers, and/or have some personal and fairly-recent competition background on horses they have trained themselves.

I just don't see much in most of the BNTs from the Natural Horsemanship community to make me sit up and take notice.


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## SavvyHearts

I do agree that some things of Parelli do seem expensive, but being the owner of stuff from ropes to the carrot stick to the theraflex pad and I've used their saddle once...I am amazed at the quality of their items. 
But they do not say that you need to buy their equipment in order to succeed nor do they grade people differently or treat people differently because they don't buy their items. 


May I ask exactly what makes it so important to have a trainer have a show record? To me how the trainer scores in shows is not important but what is important is what his horses think of him and how he treats the horses


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## smrobs

SavvyHearts said:


> May I ask exactly what makes it so important to have a trainer have a show record? To me how the trainer scores in shows is not important but what is important is what his horses think of him and how he treats the horses


IMHO, how they treat the horses is the most important thing but a trainer with a good show record proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he can successfully train winning horses in any given discipline. That way, people don't have to go on his word alone that he can train *enter discipline here* horses. If I wanted a reining horse trained, I would look for a trainer that had been winning in the NRHA, same with cutting and NCHA, and I would imagine that there are few people that would be willing to send their horse to a dressage trainer that had never shown (and if they did, didn't win). If you are just looking for a good broke horse that you can use for trails or maybe some very low level shows, then the trainers show record isn't as important but for competitions if you want a winning horse, you need to have a winning trainer.


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## c99

_Quote: (these are seven games that horses play with each other to establish who is the alpha in a herd. Really? Have you ever seen one horse in a field make another horse back up thirty feet? I haven't)._ 

No one has. this parelli is a freak and dangerous dude. we ordered 3 of his videos and were disgusted. He uses whips for everything, no mater what. the guy can't do anything with a horse unless he has a whip. what's naturel about that! 
then you look at the faces of the audience and you know they are thinking that this is not fun for the horse. this guy is a dope. don't waste your money and ruin a horse.:-x


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## Spirithorse

^^ If you say he can't do anything without a whip, you haven't done your research  That's evident from your post.


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## kevinshorses

c99 said:


> _Quote: (these are seven games that horses play with each other to establish who is the alpha in a herd. Really? Have you ever seen one horse in a field make another horse back up thirty feet? I haven't)._
> 
> No one has. this parelli is a freak and dangerous dude. we ordered 3 of his videos and were disgusted. He uses whips for everything, no mater what. the guy can't do anything with a horse unless he has a whip. what's naturel about that!
> then you look at the faces of the audience and you know they are thinking that this is not fun for the horse. this guy is a dope. don't waste your money and ruin a horse.:-x


 
So just how many horses have you trained? I'm not a big Parelli fan but your kind of an ignorant a**. Why don't you link to your web site and maybe I'll buy your videos? When is your show on TV or are you too busy doing clinics across the world because your method works and people pay alot of money to learn what you know? If you don't like it don't do it but don't run a horseman down with your ignorance. I doubt you are worthy of picking the **** out of his stalls.


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## smrobs

Agreed with 2 previous posters. I may not agree with many of the things that he does or teaches but that is not saying that they don't work. He is one hell of a horseman and anyone with half a brain can tell that by watching him work with his horses. I don't like him for personal reasons and I don't particularly like the way that he does his business but I will be the first to jump up and defend him by saying that he IS a horseman, better than many that are out there. And as for the whip, it's not like he was actually using it to whip the horse, he uses it as an extension of his body to help with cues.


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## Spirithorse

^^ I completely respect your post smrobs. Nicely put.


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## kiwigirl

I have to my shame been a PP dabbler! When I had my first up and coming young horse I was looking for a natural and kind way to train him. I bought the first lot of DVD's and loved to watch them. I love to watch Pat with a horse I personnaly found it to be a thing of beauty.

Unfortunately when it came time to apply it to my young guy it never worked! I was very disappointed because I found there to be no solutions to problems. I am in rural NZ, I have no show experience, have never been to a clinic or a pony club in my life. I have no training and I have never tried any sort of equestrian disciplin. I have been sitting on horses since I was four. I wanted to learn and I bought the PP DVD's and was not able to learn from them.

It was so frustrating! He would give a wonderful demonstration with a horse that was already schooled and I would feel like a **** because my horse would be rearing and lashing out on the end of my rope. And nowhere were there ever any troubleshooting solutions. Nothing to explain what to do if the methods didn't work! I nearly ruined my poor bloody horse with my ignorance. I honestly hoped to be able to learn from the DVD's (and was assured that I could!) and learnt just enough to hang myself. I was sucked into the marketing, DUUH!!

In the end it was such a muddle and I was so disheartened and lost, I paid a fortune (which I barely had) to bring down a PP trained expert. The guy was good but the thing that really ticked me off, and I mean REALLY bugged me! Was the fact that how he ended up schooling my young horse bore NO relation to the gentle methods demonstrated on the DVD's I had spent a fortune on. There was no way I could have achieved anything like what was achieved based on buying the product.

And I can be told that my expectations were to high or that I was to impatient, tried to do too much without the right "savvy" knowledge BUT that is how it is marketed! Buy these instructional DVD's and you will be taught how to achieve wonderful things. *BOLLACKS!*


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## rocky pony

"eualck" is what comes to mind..


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## aranyc123

i'm a level 1 parelli student and i love it.............it has made me feel more comfortable around them...........


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## SuperStarsSugar

I think that the philosophy is sound, but Parelli has systematized it and watered it down so much that it's lot a lot of it's power. Not every horse is going to need all the steps in Parelli's sequence, and not every horse is going to be able to do the steps in the sequence that Parelli dictates. Flexibility is key with horses, IMO, and to take that away is to put obstacles in the way of effective training. I don't use the system, but I do use alot of the "games" (only I don't call them that) and I have had really great success. It really all comes down to trust.


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## SavvyHearts

SuperStarsSugar said:


> I think that the philosophy is sound, but Parelli has systematized it and watered it down so much that it's lot a lot of it's power. Not every horse is going to need all the steps in Parelli's sequence, and not every horse is going to be able to do the steps in the sequence that Parelli dictates. Flexibility is key with horses, IMO, and to take that away is to put obstacles in the way of effective training. I don't use the system, but I do use alot of the "games" (only I don't call them that) and I have had really great success. It really all comes down to trust.


That's the beauty of the program, yes there is a program to follow, but we recognize that not all horses learn the way others do or respond the same, so that's when the thinking part comes out. Is it time to advance? Would it be better for my horse to take things slower? If you do everything the same as you did with another horse you are not doing things right...no horse is the same


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## SuperStarsSugar

SavvyHearts said:


> That's the beauty of the program, yes there is a program to follow, but we recognize that not all horses learn the way others do or respond the same, so that's when the thinking part comes out. Is it time to advance? Would it be better for my horse to take things slower? If you do everything the same as you did with another horse you are not doing things right...no horse is the same


My understanding of the Parelli system (I've been to the demonstrations and watched the videos) is that, in order to move through the levels your horse has to be able to do every single thing in each level. But some horses are going to have a lot more trouble with backing up than others, but find it much easier to advance in the squeeze game or what-have-you, so a horse might not be able to pass level 3 because of issues with backing up, but at the same time could be doing level 4 or 5 work in most other areas. Also, some of the things in level 3 can help with things that horses are struggling with in level 1 and so on. IMHO, it seems like a better idea to have access to that knowledge and education, but just freeball it as to the application of the games and complexity you ask of your horse. That's all I meant. As I said, I think the basic philosophy is sound and I use a lot of the same things in training my horses.


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## Spirithorse

SuperStarsSugar said:


> My understanding of the Parelli system (I've been to the demonstrations and watched the videos) is that, in order to move through the levels your horse has to be able to do every single thing in each level. But some horses are going to have a lot more trouble with backing up than others, but find it much easier to advance in the squeeze game or what-have-you, so a horse might not be able to pass level 3 because of issues with backing up, but at the same time could be doing level 4 or 5 work in most other areas.
> 
> *This is where the person needs to help the horse learn backing up as a skill. Backing over a pole, for instance. The better a horse can back up and go sideways, the better he can do everything else....that is very true. I've been backing my horse all over the place lately, and I've already seen an improvement in some things. *
> 
> Also, some of the things in level 3 can help with things that horses are struggling with in level 1 and so on. IMHO, it seems like a better idea to have access to that knowledge and education, but just freeball it as to the application of the games and complexity you ask of your horse. That's all I meant. As I said, I think the basic philosophy is sound and I use a lot of the same things in training my horses.
> 
> *I'm not sure I agree that some things in Level 3 would help a horse with backing up issues at a Level 1 standard. Level 3 is more advanced and more demanding, so it would be unfair to ask a horse to do that when he can't even perform a simple Level 1 back up.*


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## smrobs

Spirit, I think what she is getting at is that if a horse has mastered everything at level 1 EXCEPT the backup, it would be unfair to bore the horse with the monotony of continueing the same program for days or weeks until the backup is perfect. I get what she is saying that maybe it would make sense to go ahead and challenge a horse to do better at things he is already good at and move up in the levels while staying at level 1 with the backup, etc. At least that is how I understood what she wrote.


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## SavvyHearts

If the horse can exceed in everything in level one except the back up, you would stay with the level 1 backup, and progress with everything else....and you have to think what YOU are doing wrong in the case of the backing.

But you wouldn't apply for your level two until everything level one can be completed at at least a level one rank...and same with level two. It's NOT about the levels, it's about the relationship. 

They never said "you have to stay in level one until you can pass it...NEVER skip ahead". They encourage you to go ahead with more advanced stuff if you and your horse are mentally, emotionally, and physically ready for the new task. You would not start Finesse after you just learned the circling game.

It's hard to explain the whole system in a few short paragraphs...at least for me it is.


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## nrhareiner

Why would you want your horse to back up over ground poles. Heck mine would be tripping and falling down if I asked them to do that. I want the horse to sit back over their hocks when they back. SO to pick up their hind feet to step over a poll they can not even really see would be defeating the purpose I have for backing a horse the majority of the time.


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## Spirithorse

Why wouldn't you want your horse well rounded so that he COULD back over ground poles? It also helps horses gain confidence with things behind them, gets them more aware of their feet and they get better at backing up.


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## wild_spot

^ Not better in regards to hwo they should back in the ring though. It takes time to get a horse backing lightly and consistently over their hocks - I would in no way be teaching any other way of backing up.


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## nrhareiner

Not the best video but it shows a good stop with an excellent backing over the horses hocks. This is what a back should look like. Light, well rounded, back over the hocks with good speed. If you try and teach the back over ground poles you will never get this.


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## Spirithorse

Why is everything always about winning in the show ring? Backing over a pole WILL make a horse more adaptable and rounded, plus it helps build confidence.


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## wild_spot

^ It's not about winning. It's about giving the best performance that me and my horse can. 

I bet that if I actually asked my horse to back over a pole, he would. Right away. But it's not something I feel the need to do, especially as it teaches the opposite of what a lot of my training teaches. That just seems counterproductive.


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## Spirithorse

It's also a good thing to do BEACUSE it's different and unpredictable. Keeps the horse's life interesting and just adds one more thing to his list of things he's capable of doing. To me, that is not counterproductive.


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## PontiMinto

i love parelli, but not all the exersezies work for my horse so i sorta take what i want from it and go with my own


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## nrhareiner

It is a very simple reason. These horses are not only tought to back like that but they are also bred to stop and bred like that. If my horse got it into their mind to have to reach back to in the backing to step over a ground pole they would be in the wrong position in the stopping process and they would end up getting hurt. It is all one maneuver. The backing gets them over their hocks which puts them in the correct position for the stop.

It is not all about what a horse can or can not do. It is about giving them best training to keep them from getting hurt. Could I get my horses to back over ground poles?? Yes I could and it would be quite easy. However in the end I would only accomplish setting them up to get hurt for no reason but to say I can do that. Which I am not willing to do.


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## Spirithorse

You don't back your horse over ground poles every day....you do it so that you know your horse is able and confident with things back behind him. If he is, then great, get off it. If a horse is unconfident with things behind him and he has difficulty backing over a pole, I'll certainly work on it a lot (but not all in one session), to help him gain confidence.


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## nrhareiner

Do you really think a horse will back like that if he dose not have confidence with what is behind him??? You do not need ground poles to get a horse confident in backing. A horse who is confident will back well as shown in that video.


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## SavvyHearts

Yes the horse has to have confidence to back like that, but the horse also should know where their feet are. Ever been on a horse and you're walking along and all of a sudden the horse trips? Now obviously that stone just didn't bounce up, the horse was not paying attention to where his feet are. 
Backing over a pole helps the horse know where exactly his feet are at all times. Just like how jumpers do pole work (well I'm sure everyone has at one point) is to help the horse know where his feet are, and to stretch also...you'd do that at walk, trot, and canter so what makes it so wrong to do it at the backup also? Backing is still a forward gait


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## nrhareiner

SavvyHearts said:


> Yes the horse has to have confidence to back like that, but the horse also should know where their feet are. Ever been on a horse and you're walking along and all of a sudden the horse trips? Now obviously that stone just didn't bounce up, the horse was not paying attention to where his feet are.
> Backing over a pole helps the horse know where exactly his feet are at all times. Just like how jumpers do pole work (well I'm sure everyone has at one point) is to help the horse know where his feet are, and to stretch also...you'd do that at walk, trot, and canter so what makes it so wrong to do it at the backup also? Backing is still a forward gait


That is not the only way to teach a horse where their feet are. They learn that in many ways. It is like teaching a dog where their feet are by getting them to walk on the rungs of a latter. However that is not the only way to teach a dog that lesson. There are more then one way to skin a cat. If I can get my horse to learn that with out messing up anouther part of their training I will take that before backing over ground poles which teaches them the wrong thing for what I want.


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## smrobs

People who ride reining horses and cow horses and pretty much any other performance discipline want their horse to be collected and have their hind end up underneath them. If they are heavy on the forehand, then they are not able to stop like that, or spin on their hocks, or do smooth rollbacks, or suck back to keep with a cow. For all that, the horse needs to have their butt down and be over their hocks. That takes a lot of training and for them, it would be counterproductive to teach a horse to pick up their hind end to step over something while going backward. Staying down over the hocks is what keeps those horses sound and makes all the movements smooth. I don't show but I do want my horses to stay on their hocks so that they can easily swing their front end over in front of a cow should the need arise. Can people teach their horses to walk backward over groundpoles? Yes. Does it always benefit the horse? No. Not when teaching a horse that they need to stay down over their hocks while backing up. The backing sets up the foundation for the rollbacks and the spins and the sliding stops and basically everything that is taught in reining, cutting, WCH, etc. Backing over groundpoles isn't the only way to teach a horse to be aware of his feet. IMHO, there are very few horses that can match a reining horse for knowing exactly where each foot is all the time. They have to in order to maintain a consistent spin, or keep forward motion during the stop. My horses are taught to be aware of their feet by riding in very rough and treacherous terrain and I have never asked any of them to back over a groundpole. 

On another note, how does a horse know it is there except to bump it with his hind leg? Horses can't see directly behind them.


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## SavvyHearts

nrhareiner, how exactly is backing up over poles messing up a part of training? You have obviously never been trail riding enough to have needed your horse to back up over a foot tall log while going up hill because turning around was impossible and you could not go forward. Once you're in that situation, backing over a pole is necessary. 

So it's ok to have a horse collected while going back and more or less hardly lifting up their feet to back, but not one that can lift up their feet a higher difference. Being collected allows the horses a better range of motion with all 4 feet, especially the back. Look at piaffes and so on...a horse cannot do it if it is not collected 

And that is where your wrong. I can do low level reining with my mare...just enough so we can do sliding stops and spins and stuff that I thought would be cool to teach her. But guess what? We back over poles at least once a month. It teachers her to know where her feet are at ALL gaits, not just walk, trot, canter, but backing up, sideways, and so on. It has in no way "ruined" or inhibited her ability to do the sliding stops or backing up very fast. HAs it helped? Maybe...but definitely has not inhibited it.

Yes the first couple times the horse finds it by bumping into it, but horses have better senses than we can. They can sense energy from another horse, a human, a dog, etc where we cannot (we can in some instances, but not to the extreme like horses can). It took my mare just 2 times of bumping into them to realize to pay attention. I can go 6 months plus and not have her back over a pole, then place a simple pole there and she won't hit it.

smrobs, so are you saying that while riding in your "trecherous and very rough terrain" that your horse has never tripped? Tripping is not paying attention to where their feet are. Simple as the horse didn't step high enough for that rock. Obviously then your horse did not know where his feet where or did not have a good enough plan for his feet when he came to that rock. 

Galloping, cantering, and trotting is all second nature to a horse. You never have to teach a foal how to canter or gallop...they know how to do it at birth...which means they can do that without paying any attention to anything, or paying attention to one thing...that evil monster in the bushes. 
I have seen way to many horses go completely brainless while cantering along on a lunge like to where when you ask them to stop, they don't see you at all. They are NOT paying attention to where their feet are. They are in motion and maintaining that motion. Just because you can do w/t/c/g transitions does not mean that the horse knows where their feet is


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## kevinshorses

SavvyHearts said:


> Backing is still a forward gait


When teaching a horse to back I would agree with this. When stepping over a pole on the ground it couldn't be more different. The feet track with a different arc because a horse has to use itself differently to move backwards. Saying that backing is just foward in reverse is cute and sounds catchy on a dvd but it isn't always true. I don't think it's a bad idea to teach a horse to back over a pole. My horses can do it and they also stop on their hocks and can turn around pretty well but they are not reining horses either. If I had a reiner I would probably not care about backing over poles and it's not something that I practice anymore with my horses.


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## nrhareiner

SavvyHearts said:


> nrhareiner, how exactly is backing up over poles messing up a part of training? You have obviously never been trail riding enough to have needed your horse to back up over a foot tall log while going up hill because turning around was impossible and you could not go forward. Once you're in that situation, backing over a pole is necessary.
> 
> *See you are assuming things again. Yes Lived in Tn for years and use to trail ride with my horses all the time usually at night. More fun that way. Te can and has backed over things that are about 3ft high. Never backed him over ground poles. You would be surprised what a well trained horse can do when asked. If you have control over every part of the horses body you can ask and they will do it.* *They also learn by backing out of a step up trailer, Needing to get out of a tack room they broke into with out getting their rears beat, Getting out of areas in the barn they are not suppose to be in. Funny how things like that work. training when you least expect it.*
> 
> So it's ok to have a horse collected while going back and more or less hardly lifting up their feet to back, but not one that can lift up their feet a higher difference. Being collected allows the horses a better range of motion with all 4 feet, especially the back. Look at piaffes and so on...a horse cannot do it if it is not collected
> 
> *Correct a horse must be collected to do Piaffe however it is done an a much different speed. Different direction. It is the speed you gain buy getting a horse to back like that. It is what keeps them light.*
> 
> And that is where your wrong. I can do low level reining with my mare...just enough so we can do sliding stops and spins and stuff that I thought would be cool to teach her. But guess what? We back over poles at least once a month. It teachers her to know where her feet are at ALL gaits, not just walk, trot, canter, but backing up, sideways, and so on. It has in no way "ruined" or inhibited her ability to do the sliding stops or backing up very fast. HAs it helped? Maybe...but definitely has not inhibited it.
> 
> *See this is where YOU are wrong and it really ****es me off to no end when people say "I can get my horse to do this maneuver or that maneuver so he/she is a reining horse. Yes nice you can get your horse to turn a but and do a sliding stop of a bout maybe 6 feet. THAT IS NOT A REINING HORSE. I do dressage movements with my horses dose not make they dressage horses. I can and have taken my horses and run 2D barrels in a competitive field dose not make my horse a barrel horse.
> 
> What you call a reiner and what I call a reiner are 2 very very different things. My reiners can go in to an NRHA Open class and mark a 73-74. They stop 35 feet.*
> 
> Yes the first couple times the horse finds it by bumping into it, but horses have better senses than we can. They can sense energy from another horse, a human, a dog, etc where we cannot (we can in some instances, but not to the extreme like horses can). It took my mare just 2 times of bumping into them to realize to pay attention. I can go 6 months plus and not have her back over a pole, then place a simple pole there and she won't hit it.
> 
> *Great but dose your horse back like the one in the video??? Mine do and I do not want then to have to figure out which one I am asking for. IF I actually needed them to back over something I know I can get them to do it as I have on play days. Not something I need to work on and practices though.*
> 
> smrobs, so are you saying that while riding in your "trecherous and very rough terrain" that your horse has never tripped? Tripping is not paying attention to where their feet are. Simple as the horse didn't step high enough for that rock. Obviously then your horse did not know where his feet where or did not have a good enough plan for his feet when he came to that rock.
> 
> *See tripping over something dose not mean a horse dose not know where his feet are. Have you never tripped over something??? Te has tripped at times. He is the horse who has backed over 3 foot obstetrical. So he must not know where his feet are b/c he trips at times. I call it being lazy and not working at that give moment.*
> 
> Galloping, cantering, and trotting is all second nature to a horse. You never have to teach a foal how to canter or gallop...they know how to do it at birth...which means they can do that without paying any attention to anything, or paying attention to one thing...that evil monster in the bushes.
> I have seen way to many horses go completely brainless while cantering along on a lunge like to where when you ask them to stop, they don't see you at all. They are NOT paying attention to where their feet are. They are in motion and maintaining that motion. Just because you can do w/t/c/g transitions does not mean that the horse knows where their feet is


While on a lunge line is a lot different then when a rider is on their back. I know from personal experience what happens to a reiner when they stop paying attention or try to go too fast in a maneuver before they are ready. Believe me. IF they did not know where their feet are you would see a lot of bloody legs are reining horses and trainers buying leg gear everyday.

Like I said before their is more then one way to skin a cat. There is more then one way to teach a horse where their feet are. This just one of my problems with Parrelli. You see only one way. I see 10.


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## SavvyHearts

Did I ever say I could or wanted to compete in NRHA? I said low level for a reason. People have to start somewhere, and do not say that you just hopped on a random horse and was able to go and compete (with no prior Reining work done on that horse). 
No she can't stop 35ft....because I've never asked her for it nor do I intend to. I do not wish to make a name for myself by riding her in NRHA or winning first in competitions, I was simply stating that just because a horse can do reining moves does not mean simple backing over a pole is going to ruin their training. 

Yes backing like that keeps them light, but it's not just that that keeps them light, it's how you use the bit while showing and training that keeps them light.

Yes my mare can back up fast, I don't do it extensively since she's still young but she can definitely back up pretty darn fast...I have never timed her and no is there listed a speed of how fast that horse is going so I cannot possible say "yes she can back up that fast or faster" as there is no way of knowing unless we time speeds or have both there and have a backwards race 

Exactly, you consider it being lazy and not working at that moment, but do remember that horse's minds drift...they are never always on work and you. Attention, just like in people, will drift from different things. So how do you know exactly that it's just him "being lazy and not working at the moment" or just not having his mind on what he's doing...not having his mind on what he's doing means that he's not paying attention to where he's going, where his feet are or anything else until his attention goes back on the job at hand. In which case yes, not having attention right there would mean he trips if something is there.
Sorry if that's confusing.


ANd you just assume that I see only one way. Why don't you read up on Parelli, the horsenalities, and just the method in general...you will learn alot more than what you assume you just know


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## cobbywob

Another very interesting thread - and on something that I have mulled over in recent years. 

Always eager to learn anything new with horses I did 'examine' the possiblity of using some of the so called 'Natural Horsemanship methods in the past. Read up and studied various methods and did find a lot of it rather confusing and ,to my feeble mind, rather counter productive in many areas - but some of it not much different from what I do daily anyway..

However, never one to judge without trying I paid the magnificent sum of E160 to have an Aussy 'natural horseman' who was doing a few clinics in Ireland, come to give me the low down, one to one, with my then young Tennnesse Walking Horse (recently imported from USA).

Well the very handsome and charismatic gentleman arrived, asked to watch me go out to field, catch my horse, bring him into the paddock and show me how I was working on the ground with him. Announced that I had approached horsey correctly, led him in correctly, handled all ground work correctly and how long had I been practising natural horsemanship? Errr - not started it yet matey - paying you my pension and waiting for you to show me the light so to speak?









Transpires that all that I was doing, purely through 50 odd years of horse ownership and mainly picked up along the way in my childhood from crotchey old horsemen was what this new fangled 'horsemanship' is all about









Spent the rest of my E160's worth watching him happily ride around on my horse (obviously enjoying himself immensely) commenting in his lovely Aussy twang what a well broke young horse he was!









Point of all this drivvle is that although I do respect anybody and anything that will give a horse a better and kinder way of learning - really wonder if the horsey public is being conned into paying out for expensive instruction and peculiar looking toys on sticks etc. just to do what any half decent old horse owner would be only too happy to do for free - pass on the knowledge to help you deal with your horse in a kind and sympathetic way?


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## nrhareiner

SavvyHearts said:


> Did I ever say I could or wanted to compete in NRHA? I said low level for a reason. People have to start somewhere, and do not say that you just hopped on a random horse and was able to go and compete (with no prior Reining work done on that horse).
> No she can't stop 35ft....because I've never asked her for it nor do I intend to. I do not wish to make a name for myself by riding her in NRHA or winning first in competitions, I was simply stating that just because a horse can do reining moves does not mean simple backing over a pole is going to ruin their training.
> 
> *Since you have never done it how would you know what will and will not ruin a horse training at that level??* *Again other ways to get the same results which will not ruin the training needed to do what I do.*
> 
> Yes backing like that keeps them light, but it's not just that that keeps them light, it's how you use the bit while showing and training that keeps them light.
> 
> *Correct however I was simply stating in the backing not others things. There is a lot of work that goes into keeping a horse light. *
> 
> 
> Yes my mare can back up fast, I don't do it extensively since she's still young but she can definitely back up pretty darn fast...I have never timed her and no is there listed a speed of how fast that horse is going so I cannot possible say "yes she can back up that fast or faster" as there is no way of knowing unless we time speeds or have both there and have a backwards race
> 
> *That is great. That shows she is working well. *
> 
> Exactly, you consider it being lazy and not working at that moment, but do remember that horse's minds drift...they are never always on work and you. Attention, just like in people, will drift from different things. So how do you know exactly that it's just him "being lazy and not working at the moment" or just not having his mind on what he's doing...not having his mind on what he's doing means that he's not paying attention to where he's going, where his feet are or anything else until his attention goes back on the job at hand. In which case yes, not having attention right there would mean he trips if something is there.
> Sorry if that's confusing.
> 
> *There is a difference between a horse having an ADD moment and not knowing where their feet are. Just b/c a horse trips just like when a person trips does not mean they do not know where their feet are. I know my horses tend to do it more when I am leading them in and out of the pastures/barn. Not under saddle. When I am asking them to work they know to pay attention and I rarely have one that has an ADD moment when we are working.*
> 
> 
> ANd you just assume that I see only one way. Why don't you read up on Parelli, the horsenalities, and just the method in general...you will learn alot more than what you assume you just know


I have read a lot of about Parelli seen many of his students I even did the Horsenality with several of my horses. Boy was that ever off. Not even close to what they are and the way they learn. Found it quite funny to tell you the truth. 

What I have found over the years with PP cult members is that they can not see past the PP crap and get stuck in one thing. When their horse can not do something they just keep punding the PP line into them. Will not listen to other ideas even when they can see it works. SO yes one way it all I see with PP. As that is what I have seen on the DVD clinics and poeple I know who do it.


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## nrhareiner

cobbywob said:


> Point of all this drivvle is that although I do respect anybody and anything that will give a horse a better and kinder way of learning - really wonder if the horsey public is being conned into paying out for expensive instruction and peculiar looking toys on sticks etc. just to do what any half decent old horse owner would be only too happy to do for free - pass on the knowledge to help you deal with your horse in a kind and sympathetic way?


You just summed up my point in a very well put paragraph. 

I have found that NH is used by just about every person to some extent. Some just pay a lot more for it then others.


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## wild_spot

I agree wholeheartedly with nrhareiner, can't add anything more really :]

Savvyhearts - It sounds like you are saying that if you back your horse over poles it will never trip?

I also trail ride regularly in rough terrain - Logs, rocks, long grass, rabbit holes, all on the side of a hill. Never had a horse fall and rarely trip. I also gallop headfirst down one particularly steep hill as that is where the sheep make a break for it and a horse is the only thing that can get down to block them in time not to lose them - If my horses didn't know where there feet where, one of use would probably be dead or badly injured.


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## MacabreMikolaj

nrhareiner said:


> I have found that NH is used by just about every person to some extent. Some just pay a lot more for it then others.


Just have to say, this should be a famous quote someday. I couldn't agree more.


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## kevinshorses

I get so tired of the PP cult thinking that the answer to any problem is "just do the 7 games with him". If they really want to help people understand thier horses better then they should explain how to do the exercise that will help the persons horse and not mention Parrelli or 7 games or carrot stick or savvy string(what a joke). Then if that method works they might ask where you learned it and that would be the time to make the sales pitch. I thought it was just a few people on this board but I overheard it the other day at a horse event. If people ask you for help don't give them a sales pitch give them some help. If I had a problem about my Dodge pickup and the mechanics answer was you should have bought a Ford I would soon have a different mechanic. I have spent a lot of money to go to clinics and buy DVD's and books but I hope I can understand the philosophy enough that I don't have to continually wave the flag of a certain trainer or clinician.


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## Spirithorse

My question for people who *think* they know what Parelli is really all about is this: How long have you been studying the program, learning the theory, and putting the principles into action?


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## wild_spot

> My question for people who *think* they know what Parelli is really all about is this: How long have you been studying the program, learning the theory, and putting the principles into action?


How long have you been studying traditional horsemanship, learning the theory, and putting the principles into action?


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## smrobs

Touche. 


Huh, I never can figure out how to get the little thingy over the letters :?.


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## wild_spot

^ Lol I know :]


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## Spirithorse

I actually rode, trained and showed the traditional way for many many years before finding Parelli. I rode many different horses, of all different athletic abilities, all different mind sets, introverts and extroverts, big and small, different breeds. Unlike a lot of people who dis Parelli, I actually have experience in BOTH ways of training. Care for specific details....like what I would do if a horse bit me, refused a jump, or otherwise acted disobediant?


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## wild_spot

^ No need for snark, I was genuinely interested. It is often the case that Parrelli-ites are just as uneducated about traditional riding as vice versa.


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## Spirithorse

I'm sorry if it came off snarky, I was being serious if you wanted to know specifics or not. My feelings of people who dis Parelli (who have no actual experience with the program) are the same as for Parelli people who bash others (but who might not have much experience in the traditional ways). You don't bash something you know nothing about! Okay, maybe bash isn't the right word, but you know what I mean lol.


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## wild_spot

Yup, I do, it's frustrating :] hence I try to stay out of most of the Parelli v. traditional slinging matches - I simply haven't done enough Parelli to have an *educated* opinion on it. Do I have an uneducated opinion? Sure do, but I don't air it very often :] I tend to chime in only when there are actual training debates - Such as the backing up.


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## nrhareiner

See that is the problem. I do know about the PP program. I have been around it quite a bit. I have been around people who train with PP and their horses are not very well trained. I have audited clinics. Way over prices if you wanted to take a horse. Lets just say that I can do the same thing for a lot less money. It is NH it is not rocket science.


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## SavvyHearts

But do note that anyone can call themselves a Parelli follower, does not mean that they are truly following their methods...and saying "I do Parelli NH" could simply mean "oh I started two days ago and my horse hasn't killed me yet!" 
I have definitely seen some very bad behaved "Parelli" horses, but the owner does not understand the concepts or recognize the importance of the different parts, it more or less reflects on the horse being "bad and horrible" and then reflects on the program. This goes for any method, not just Parelli


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## Spirithorse

^^ Exactly. ANYONE can immitate PP, but it's the dedicated student who emulates PP. In that lies the difference between the two people.....the ones who just use techniques, and the ones who use the principles.


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## nrhareiner

Well then we have about 25+ people some have been doing PP for years. Have been certified up to level 3-4 yet I would not let any one of them touch any one of my horses and would not have any of their horses in my barn. Except one she is actually come a long way but has started looking at other type of training and has improved since. However she had been doing PP for the past 8+ years.

I have had PP trained mares come into my barn for breeding. Sent a few back home. Retrained a few to understand what MY SPACE is. They where better when they left.

The fact is that for every one person who ends up with a well trained horse that uses PP I can show you 10 that do not. The problem boils down to the fact that they will not take in out side info that is not PP. They will not seak out people who have proven they can train a horse. They get in over their heads and refuse to get help unless it is PP type help and most of those people are not much better. Blind leading the blind.

Is this true of every PP student? No but the ones like yourself who have a back ground in other methods are the ones who are usually the most successful using PP methods.

It is all part of a bigger picture. If you can not step back and look at the entire picture all you get in the grain of the picture and never figure out what it should be.


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## Spirithorse

It's hard for me to see, big picture, how people can't see to defend their space in the Parelli program....they talk about it just as much as anything else....but then, because I've studied human behavior now and wanted to be more well rounded in understanding how people think while learning the program and how they function, that I can now understand why some people don't seem to "get it" or they have trouble with it. There are so many things that can cause this issue, none of which the program itself is at fault for.

For me, I have not kept anything I learned about riding/training horses in my traditional ways...it's been replaced by other means of riding and training. For myself and my horses, we are much much happier.


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## nrhareiner

Well I have yet to see a PP trained horse that I would buy. 

The people around here that do the PP will not use any halter but the PP halter along with any other things like Lunge whips and such. They seem to think saddle and bits are bad. Most cause problems out on the trails b/c of how their horses behave. I have seen more then one horse come back with out a rider.

Again not all PP trained horses are like this but the majority of them around here are. They spend all this money on all this crap and clinic with people who have no rep but PP certifications. Most will not even discipline their horses.


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## SavvyHearts

> No but the ones like yourself who have a back ground in other methods are the ones who are usually the most successful using PP methods.


Wanted to just throw in that though I used to be a traditional rider, I do not use any traditional methods with my horses anymore...straight Parelli


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## kevinshorses

I don't have a problem with the Parelli training method (other than the fact that it's a bit of a circus). My comment was directed at the PP followers that feel like pushing the 7 games is the bst way to help someone that is asking for advice. If you're a follower of PP then fine but I'm sure that people asking for advice would appreciate a little better advice than buy the DVD and do the seven games. How many times has that been posted on this forum? Or my favorite "just go sit in your horses pasture, stall, pen and just be with them." I really don't think that is going to help very much.


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## kevinshorses

SavvyHearts said:


> Wanted to just throw in that though I used to be a traditional rider, I do not use any traditional methods with my horses anymore...straight Parelli


How many years have you been riding *as an adult?* I only ask because if you had little experience before PP then of course you would improve and leave all the things that you were doing wrong behind you. If you were inexperienced with "traditional methods" then they wouldn't have worked for you.


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## nrhareiner

Plus whither you want to admit it or not. That prior experience helps. You might not use those techniques any more but that horse experience goes a long way.


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## Marecare

kevinshorses said:


> I don't have a problem with the Parelli training method (other than the fact that it's a bit of a circus). My comment was directed at the PP followers that feel like pushing the 7 games is the bst way to help someone that is asking for advice. If you're a follower of PP then fine but I'm sure that people asking for advice would appreciate a little better advice than buy the DVD and do the seven games. How many times has that been posted on this forum? Or my favorite "just go sit in your horses pasture, stall, pen and just be with them." I really don't think that is going to help very much.[/quot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no real problem with the friendly game,the squeeze game,or the circle game as they are harmless and really don't get people into trouble or hurt the horse.
> 
> BUT I feel that the Yo-yo game is just WRONG and there is NOTHING Natural about it at all.
> Slapping a lead rope against the jaw of a horse to teach it to back up is BAD technique and does NOT transfer to the rider in ANY way.
> When it is performed by the unskilled it turns into a slapping game and sends the horses head into the clouds.
> My arms are just all wiggled out!


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## lillie

slapping a leadrope against a horses jaw! good grief the more i hear about natural horsemanship -the parelli disciples way- the more i think its not natural at all- itstotally unnatural if you ythink about it-- all you will achieve with this is a headshy horse who doesnt like being near you, and doesnt trust you either.. and what about something i read on here about teaching the horse it has feet, or some similar?? are these trainers having a laugh all the way to the bank? my horses were all born knowing they had feet and where to put them, so luckily for my wallet we wont be having to go to that workshop. it is just a shame that a lot of genuine people and horses are getting caught into this type of stuff, which i 'm afraid often does more harm than good. it all too much. it needs to get back to basics of kind horsehandling and learning through experience, not gems of wisdom like these.


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## PaintHorseMares

I have no particular problem with Parelli or any of the other 'DVD trainers'. There are plenty of ideas to pick and choose from. I believe the biggest danger with any of these (and others have mentioned similar thoughts) is getting 'stuck' following a program to the point of ignoring common sense, your gut, and expecting quick results. The foundation of all training (and most learning) is in _consistancy_ and _repetition_....and just those simple principles will get your horse to where you want.


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## Spirithorse

nrhareiner said:


> Well I have yet to see a PP trained horse that I would buy.
> 
> The people around here that do the PP will not use any halter but the PP halter along with any other things like Lunge whips and such. They seem to think saddle and bits are bad. Most cause problems out on the trails b/c of how their horses behave. I have seen more then one horse come back with out a rider.
> 
> Again not all PP trained horses are like this but the majority of them around here are. They spend all this money on all this crap and clinic with people who have no rep but PP certifications. Most will not even discipline their horses.


They think saddles and bits are bad?:? Wow, see it's clowns like that who give Parelli a bad name! Those are people I would never associate with.


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## Spirithorse

lillie said:


> slapping a leadrope against a horses jaw! good grief the more i hear about natural horsemanship -the parelli disciples way- the more i think its not natural at all- itstotally unnatural if you ythink about it-- all you will achieve with this is a headshy horse who doesnt like being near you, and doesnt trust you either.. and what about something i read on here about teaching the horse it has feet, or some similar?? are these trainers having a laugh all the way to the bank? my horses were all born knowing they had feet and where to put them, so luckily for my wallet we wont be having to go to that workshop. it is just a shame that a lot of genuine people and horses are getting caught into this type of stuff, which i 'm afraid often does more harm than good. it all too much. it needs to get back to basics of kind horsehandling and learning through experience, not gems of wisdom like these.


Oh for goodness sake, Marecare made it seem like the Yo-Yo Game IS about slapping your horse's jaw with the snap! For cryin out loud it's not. The only time, and I mean ONLY time I personally have done that is when a horse has been trying to run into me or otherwise putting my body in harms way so yea, I did use the snap as a means to say "HECK NO YOU ARE NOT RUNNING INTO ME." I'm not afraid to get firm with a horse:wink: You do learn to wiggle the rope so the horse goes back, and a "Phase 4" is shaking the rope so the snap MOVES but you don't whack your horse with it....it just moves the halter more but doesn't come close to touching your horse. IMO having the horse be able to back up by simply shaking the rope is very useful, I could think of many situations where it would come in handy (I've experienced many of those personally). Plus once the person gets more advanced you don't see much rope wiggling, it's more about body language now that the horse has become aware of it.


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## Speed Racer

Spirit, I don't like the idea of wiggling the lead rope to get the horse to back up. There are times when the lead rope is going to wiggle, and I DON'T want the horse to back up. 

So if you've taught your horse to back up every time the lead rope jiggles, how do you address that issue? Horses are as smart as they need to be, but if you give them a certain stimulus, even unintentionally, they're going to do what you've taught them to even if you didn't want them to do that particular thing at that time.

You know how I teach my horses to back up and give me space? I touch them on the chest, push lightly, and say 'BACK!' in a very authoritative voice. No wiggling ropes, no games, no Parelli, and no confusing signals that may or may NOT mean for them to back up.

Once they're trained, I just tell them 'back' and they move backwards away from me. I don't even have to touch them on the chest at that point. I like that method much better than flickitatin' or twirlin' stuff at 'em.

IME, and there has been plenty of it, the most badly trained, rude animals I've ever met have been Parelli-ized.

Granted, it's probably because the people who are using the methods are green as grass noobs, but they're the folks who generally buy into the Parelli marketing hype, and they're also the people who are targeted BY the marketing.

For you to say the Parellis aren't to blame for that, well I don't agree. They know darned well WHO they're marketing to, and that a majority of people are sheep looking for a shepherd. Why think for themselves, when their guru will tell them how do everything?

NH isn't a new concept. Xenophon in 38 BC put the concept of NH in writing, in the first horse training manual. Before then, it was done by word of mouth.

The Parellis just glitterized it up with fancy, expensive, unnecessary training tools, and silly 'games', to make it more appealing to noobs. 

The fact that YOU'VE had success with it tells me that your previous training and expertise have helped you to see past all the smoke and mirrors, to the conceptually valid methods behind all the hype.

It's not NH I object to, it's the Parellis and their ilk.


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## cobbywob

Spirithorse said:


> Oh for goodness sake, Marecare made it seem like the Yo-Yo Game IS about slapping your horse's jaw with the snap! For cryin out loud it's not. The only time, and I mean ONLY time I personally have done that is when a horse has been trying to run into me or otherwise putting my body in harms way so yea, I did use the snap as a means to say "HECK NO YOU ARE NOT RUNNING INTO ME." I'm not afraid to get firm with a horse:wink: You do learn to wiggle the rope so the horse goes back, and a "Phase 4" is shaking the rope so the snap MOVES but you don't whack your horse with it....it just moves the halter more but doesn't come close to touching your horse. IMO having the horse be able to back up by simply shaking the rope is very useful, I could think of many situations where it would come in handy (I've experienced many of those personally). Plus once the person gets more advanced you don't see much rope wiggling, it's more about body language now that the horse has become aware of it.


Well actually if I had to rely on wriggling a rope or anything else at my horse to get him to back up I would be pretty disappointed. I have taught all my horses to back up purely by voice command - and I expect them to do so immediately I say 'Back' - cant see where we have to use the evangelistic happy clappy NH methods to simply teach a horse some manners. 

Simply put,a few little nudges with your knuckle in the chest area with the voice command 'back' repeated over just a few days works wonders - and I wont even charge you for my video or ask you to buy my special long wiggly rope or my lovely fluffy woppy stick to impart that little bit of knowledge to help you with all your very difficult training issues!:lol:


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## lillie

right, i first sat on a horse in about 1954, ive had 35 odd years as working with horse, and owning horses, and one of the very first things i was taught, and which was a recurring rule, throughout all of that time, is " never hit a horse in the head" and i am sorry, but i am with speed racer and cobbywob here; it is totally unnecasary, and causes far more harm then good, and i am seriously beginning to question the horsemanship of the people who dreampt up this sort of stuff. amazingly enough there were some very fine, kind horsemen and women around before pp and his disiples came around to complicate everything up. its the poor horse i feel sorry for. totally un- necasary, how would you like it if you were even tapped in the face if you didnt respond to a request for backing out of someones face? i'm not sure that some of thess nh people have any respect for the horse at all, and as for calling it natural horsemanship- its totally un-natural in many aspects. it needs some serious questioning imo- its gone way too far, and i seriously question whether its in the best interests of the horse.


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## nrhareiner

Speed Racer said:


> IME, and there has been plenty of it, the most badly trained, rude animals I've ever met have been Parelli-ized.


I will have to second this. These people clam to be level 2-4 also. So they are not new to it at least that is what the Parelli levels tell them anyway.


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## nrhareiner

If you need to have a rope to wiggle to move the horse back I would be in trouble. At home I rarely to never use a lead rope. I have 2 horses I put halters on to take out to their pastures. No leads not even on the stallion. The others I put my hand under then chine. When they are coming in the only one who gets even a halter again is the stallion and only b/c he comes through an areas that is part of the yard. At times I do not even do that. Hand under the chine and they come right along. I stop they stop. I back they back. I turn they turn.


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## Alwaysbehind

nrhareiner said:


> I will have to second this. These people clam to be level 2-4 also. So they are not new to it at least that is what the Parelli levels tell them anyway.


I will third that thought.


And though Spirit insists that most PP followers are not whack jobs who insist the rest of us are evil and cruel my experience in life has led me to believe that they are. I have honestly met several people who follow various NH theories and not had a problem with them. But every PP follower I have met has been like the religious person who corners you and insists you were not right for not following what they believe. Complete with the unwillingness to just agree to disagree on the subject.


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## Spyder

Alwaysbehind said:


> But every PP follower I have met has been like the religious person who corners you and insists you were not right for not following what they believe.


Called fanatics. And I too have seen too many horses ruined by those being told that they will have perfect control by leading their horse into the kingdom of Parelli.


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## Alwaysbehind

Spyder said:


> Called fanatics. And I too have seen too many horses ruined by those being told that they will have perfect control by leading their horse into the kingdom of Parelli.


Fanatic is a great word!


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## kevinshorses

For the sake of clarification wiggling the lead rope to make a horse uncomfortable while your body is saying back up is neither new nor is it cruel. The only part of the lead rope that could possibly hit the horse is the end attached to the halter. *You don't hit the horse in the head*. If someone wanted to beat me with a rope for an hour but I got to choose how, I would want to hold one end and have them wiggle thier end up and down. *You are never going to hurt a horse doing this.*

As far as the horse moving back when the rope unintentionaly wiggles I will reitterate that the horse is taught to back from your body language the rope wiggling is just the consequences for ignoring the cue. To make my horse back all I have to do is look them hard in the eye and MAYBE lift my hand. 

This isn't just a PP technique either. Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance also used it and Buck Brannaman is who I learned it from. I have seen Dennis Reis and Clinton Anderson use it as well as about every other trainer I have seen in person or on DVD.

If anyone is confused and thinks that horses are getting hit in the head by lead ropes please PM me and I will explain it further.


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## kevinshorses

Alwaysbehind said:


> And though Spirit insists that most PP followers are not whack jobs who insist the rest of us are evil and cruel my experience in life has led me to believe that they are. I have honestly met several people who follow various NH theories and not had a problem with them. But every PP follower I have met has been like the religious person who corners you and insists you were not right for not following what they believe. Complete with the unwillingness to just agree to disagree on the subject.


I have to agree with this as well.


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## Speed Racer

But Kevin, why use the wiggling rope at all? Why not cut out that step altogether?

I don't use it, and all my horses back up when told to do so. 

I use voice inflection and body language, too. For me, those are the key things, not the wiggling rope.

It's been my experience that the Parelli-ites get caught up in the silly gear and 'games', and not the WHY of what they're doing.

You can accomplish NH with just regular equine gear that doesn't cost a boatload of money, but for some reason all the Parelli noobs think the 'special' gear has some kind of magical qualities that regular things like lead ropes and lunge whips don't have. 

Again, I blame that train of thought on the Parellis and their marketing machine. Because if people actually thought for THEMSELVES, they'd realize all that expensive crap is essentially useless. 

It's the person on the other end of the lead line that makes or breaks a horse, not the equipment used.


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## kevinshorses

I hate to use my voice and why not use the rope? Body language is the key thing for me too but I,at least , need a bck up to give some consequences and clarify what I want. It's right there in your hand and attached to your horse. I don't want to have to be close enough to my horse to touch him to get him to back up. If I rope a sick calf and need my horse to keep the rope tight all I have to do to remind him is wiggle a rope. It's not like I'm doing jumping jacks to get him to back(although a few of those wouldn't hurt me). Also if I'm having a conversation with someone and my horse gets too close I can back him up with out interupting. *Why not use the tool that you have in your hand that is connected to the closest part of your horse?*


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## cobbywob

Speed Racer said:


> But Kevin, why use the wiggling rope at all? Why not cut out that step altogether?
> 
> I don't use it, and all my horses back up when told to do so.
> 
> I use voice inflection and body language, too. For me, those are the key things, not the wiggling rope.
> 
> It's been my experience that the Parelli-ites get caught up in the silly gear and 'games', and not the WHY of what they're doing.
> 
> You can accomplish NH with just regular equine gear that doesn't cost a boatload of money, but for some reason all the Parelli noobs think that the 'special' gear has some kind of magical qualities that regular things like lead ropes and lunge whips don't have.


Exactly what point I was trying to make - put very much clearer in your words Speed Racer - I want my horses to back up when asked without headcollar, lead rope or any other 'aid' in sight!:wink:


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## cobbywob

Sorry - in my rant I meant to add - with the method I describe within a very few days you do NOT need to touch the horse in anyway - just say firmly 'back' and the horse will back AND keep backing as I repeat the word 'back':wink:


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## kevinshorses

Speed Racer said:


> *It's been my experience that the Parelli-ites get caught up in the silly gear and 'games', and not the WHY of what they're doing.*
> 
> You can accomplish NH with just regular equine gear that doesn't cost a boatload of money, but for some reason all the Parelli noobs think the 'special' gear has some kind of magical qualities that regular things like lead ropes and lunge whips don't have.
> 
> 
> 
> It's the person on the other end of the lead line that makes or breaks a horse, not the equipment used.


I certainly can't argue with that!! One reason I like Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance and that crowd is they don't do the 'step by step by step' as much as they do the 'think about how you can help your horse succeed' kind of clinics. You need to spend the time to figure out where your horses mind is at. When I rode with Ray he would spend a lot of time talking about the philisophy of how a horse works and what a horse needs to get what you want done. He didn't say 'after you do this you watch the next DVD and make your horse do this'. He rarely told you flat out how to fix the problem. He gave you the tools to figure out for yourself how to fix it. It has been a year and a half since I did the clinic with Ray and I still think about things he said and realize something new. I think the best piece of advice he ever gave is in my sig line. *Think about what happened, before what happened, happened.* There is not nearly enough of that going on with the people that follow the step-by-step guys.


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## Speed Racer

kevinshorses said:


> *Why not use the tool that you have in your hand that is connected to the closest part of your horse?*


So how do you get them to back up when they're _not_ attached to a lead line?

My horses back up on voice command, regardless of whether or not they're haltered and on a lead line. That's especially useful when I'm going into a stall, and don't want them to be piggy and crowd me.

Casper likes to crowd when it's feeding time, and with the voice command he won't come anywhere near me until I tell him he can.

I now understand the concept of why you're doing it, so thank you for clearing that up. If it works for you that's great, but I just don't see the need to incorporate it into my training regimen. 

We're doing the same training, just have slightly different methods to accomplish it. Neither one is wrong, just different.


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## Marecare

I have no real problem with anyone that has some kind of "FEEL".

The wiggle/whip thing is just very amateur and is used by beginners that do not know how to move a horse back and it just bugs me.

Take a bathroom scale and wrap one of those rope halters around it and have a friend watch the scale as you whip the rope.
I have shown students that they can VERY easily send 25 to 30 pounds of pressure to the head of the horse by flicking that lead rope around.
I am not saying that it is always that much,But the end effect is to send the horses head UP.

The other problem is that ANY cue that you were able to send to the horse is NOT transferable into the saddle.
You don't wiggle to get a horse to back up as you are riding and I am not interested in creating different cues for backup.
Also look at what happens when the lead rope is whipped vertically and horizontally as there are two very different effects and impacts.

After all the energy created has to dissipate somewhere...Right!


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## Spirithorse

My horses don't back up if the rope accidently moves or wiggles or whatever. Why? Because my BODY LANGUAGE didn't tell them to move. It's also because I'm advanced in the program...the rope wiggling is to help get the horse tuned into what your body is saying. I have personally seen instances where the person was able to stay safe by sending a nice coil down the rope and the horse backs off because he knows what it means. Sorry, but if it's a way to keep one safe, I'm all for it. I personally have never been in danger using any of the techniques or principles outlined in the program. 

We also will back our horses up by pressing on their chest and nose, and the halter knot. However, if a horse gets spooked and jumps forward toward me and I need him to GET BACK I am certainly not going to get close to the horse and press on his chest! I'll shake my rope or send a coil down, whatever is appropriate, and get that horse away from me.

Wiggling a rope, in and of itself, might not transfer to the saddle, but the concept of rhythmic motion DOES. You can't press on your horse's chest from the saddle to get him to back up, so in your mind Marecare, why do it at all, right? I'll tell you why it still works, because the concept of steady pressure translates to the saddle. If the horse knows to yield to and from steady AND rhythmic pressure that will translate to the saddle.


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## Marecare

I am willing to meet you half way Spirithorse.
Add another line and teach the horse how to DRIVE.
Now all the cues are the same as riding and the student is learning how to use two lines.
As the horse gets older or the handler does, the exercise can still be done and maybe even change over to a cart someday.
This can be done in a halter and then later changed over to a bit.

I just think that the "Wiggle" is a poor attempt at feel.
I have just seen too many that did not understand the movement banging a clasp into the chin and jaw of the horse.


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## Spirithorse

Exaggerate to teach, refine as you go along. Works for humans as well as horses.


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## Marecare

That is a very nice saying and I love to hear it.
The reality is that people exaggerate and then AGITATE the horse to death.

The problem is that people expect horses to learn all these things and they (the humans) are unwilling to teach their body how to do things themselves.

I just got back from a clinic where a woman has been working with ground work with her horse for 7 years and all I can say is that she looked like a chicken with it's head cut off flailing around trying to get a response out of her horse and tripped over her carrot stick and fell on her face.

Some people should take up bowling or another hobby.
The step by step programs just attract this kind of approach and the person needs to work on themselves and stop bothering horses and driving them nuts.


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## Spirithorse

Everyone has to learn sometime. Everyone looks like a chicken with its head cut off at some point. That's part of learning....and when is learning ever convinient or comfortable?  I know when I started Parelli I would trip over the stuff all the time, but I had to learn how to be coordinated and savvy with my tools. Now, it's second nature to me, I'm very fluid with my tools. It's all about experience and how much try and dedication the person has.

I will agree with you, some people just shouldn't do the horse thing. It'd save them a lot of frustration (and sometimes fear) and it would spare the horse....but thank goodness horses are so forgiving. There need to be more hum-dee-dum horses out there who can tolorate people learning on them. Our QH was worth his weight in gold that way, he was the perfect beginner horse.


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## lillie

the thing with parelli is that a lot of it is totally unnecasarry in that you can achieve the desired result with out all of the aids, just by thinking ahead and applying some principles of basic good horsemanship. and a worrying thing that i find with the disiples of it is that they set themselves up as experts ( saw the dvd and went to the workshops!) and then advise gung-ho in sorting out that horse, but i find that they are so hellbent on displaying thier box of tricks that they have missed the key fact that the owner has stated at the beginning; that is that the owner has not logically comunicated his/her wishes to the horse;the origion of the problem is nearly always down to the owner/ handler.. but the parelli person is just eager to get out thier box of tricks and dominate the horse- they seem to miss the entire reason why there is a problem in the first place. and i am agreeing with all of you that say there are a lot of people who will never be any good with a horse; i do believe you either have it or you dont- yes you can build on what you are lacking in, but the real feel for a horse is within you. the problem with all of this pp type stuff is that it can become a destructive thing, and unfortuneately it seems to attract a lot of people who should probably have given up the horsehandling phase of thier life, rather than investing a lot of time and money on something they just arent going to get. it is unfortunate that it is the horse that pays for all of this heavy-handedness. the kindest aids you have are your voice and your hands, used kindly. and you can accomplish a lot with just these two things + they are free!


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## Spirithorse

There is a reason to Pat's madness  lol. All I can say is with my appy, who took me to Level 3 riding and Level 4 ground work before he went blind, everything had a purpose and worked beautifully...with my warmblood, it's the same situation, it has completely turned around his behavior (as I knew it would). All the horses I work with and have worked with all responded wonderfully. So all of it is necessary, IMO, because it works. Is it the only way to train a horse? No, but it's a darn good way to train a horse IMO.


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## lillie

no ,sorry, i have to disagree; i think it all often goes too far imo. it goes beyond what is actually needed to achieve the result. yes it works for some, but it is a lot of flaffing about, and in quite a few cases it is un-necasary and even detrimental. we will just have to agree to disagree lol


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## gemwst82

Try this www.naturalhorsemanshiptraining.net some really useful information on site.


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## SavvyHearts

gemwst82 said:


> Try this www.naturalhorsemanshiptraining.net some really useful information on site.


How the heck can you tell what is information and what are ads?? In my opinion, if someone is to have a website to get people to buy their products and try to get a point around they should use a less cluttered website with no ads...or if they have to use ads (for their sponsers) have it in a position where people know it's an ad. 
Not a very professional if they can't even afford a website without ads :wink: just my opinion


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## Jolly Badger

SavvyHearts said:


> How the heck can you tell what is information and what are ads?? In my opinion, if someone is to have a website to get people to buy their products and try to get a point around they should use a less cluttered website with no ads...or if they have to use ads (for their sponsers) have it in a position where people know it's an ad.
> Not a very professional if they can't even afford a website without ads :wink: just my opinion


LOL, that's true. . .though the creators of that web site don't have the same audience of starry-eyed followers who will pay $100+ for a lunge line.:lol:

A while ago I watched a couple of Parelli's videos online, just youtube stuff people posted from his events. Maybe he actually does do teaching with individuals and their horses, but it seemed like the only clips of him involved showy circus tricks or a bunch of his students shaking overpriced carrot sticks at their own horses while the crowd watches in awe.

I've found something interesting about some of his followers. On other forums, the hardcore Parellites occasionally make negative comments about the use of spurs (in general).

According to them, spurs are a old-fashioned training instrument, more like a torture device. Just to prove a point, a few people chime in with horror stories about seeing riders' spurs leave bloody marks on their mount.

If anyone tries to clarify that spurs, when used correctly, are not cruel and are no more than an aid, the starry-eyed followers hold fast to their belief that spurs are totally unnatural and that any use of them is cruelty. Not surprisingly, these are generally the same people who brag about the horse they've been "training" for three years but they're still too scared to get on its back. . .:lol:

Lo and behold, someone points out a promotional video in which Lord Parelli himself is riding with *gasp* spurs. Suddenly, the followers rush to defend him and his spur-wearing ways. _He_ knows how to use them, he's not really kicking the horse with them, just giving the horse light leg cues.

It really is pretty funny to watch them backpeddle. . .


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## SavvyHearts

Jolly Badger said:


> LOL, that's true. . .though the creators of that web site don't have the same audience of starry-eyed followers who will pay $100+ for a lunge line.:lol:


It's not a lunge line nor do we lunge our horses. The circling game is entirely different than lunging. And as many have stated, Pat Parelli does NOT control prices the other guy does (his name escapes me) and prices aren't upped that much, I've gotten stuff directly from the company that makes the stuff for Parelli...my 12 ft lead was only $20 less than what it was on the Parelli website. I've never once seen a store not up the price at least by 35%...and even when it says 50% off...they are STILL making money off of it. It's a business, yes, just like Toys R Us or different stores.



> A while ago I watched a couple of Parelli's videos online, just youtube stuff people posted from his events. Maybe he actually does do teaching with individuals and their horses, but it seemed like the only clips of him involved showy circus tricks or a bunch of his students shaking overpriced carrot sticks at their own horses while the crowd watches in awe.


And as I've stated, Parelli is just a name, it's the actions speak. Anyone can call themselves a Parelli follower, but does not mean that they are one. Go and look at the videos of (youtube usernames) byhispirit, savvysundance, and I can give alot more good students that know what they are doing and are well on their way to becoming great teachers (I hope they both become Parelli Professionals)



> I've found something interesting about some of his followers. On other forums, the hardcore Parellites occasionally make negative comments about the use of spurs (in general).


The "hardcore Parellites" know that spurs are for refinement. THey might make negative comments on the use of spurs when people use them wrong, but I see everyone here doing it if someone is doing that with a bit. There is nothing wrong with spurs if you know how to use them and use them for refinement. They should not be used to get a horse to go.



> According to them, spurs are a old-fashioned training instrument, more like a torture device. Just to prove a point, a few people chime in with horror stories about seeing riders' spurs leave bloody marks on their mount.


Yes for the people that over use them, that is all true, for people that do not know how to use spurs they ARE a torture device. Just like a bit. ALL bits are soft in the right hands...but even a simple loose ring snaffle can be torture in the wrong hands.



> If anyone tries to clarify that spurs, when used correctly, are not cruel and are no more than an aid, the starry-eyed followers hold fast to their belief that spurs are totally unnatural and that any use of them is cruelty. Not surprisingly, these are generally the same people who brag about the horse they've been "training" for three years but they're still too scared to get on its back. . .:lol:


I'm sorry but I'm a "hardcore Parellite" as you call us, and I am fine with spurs AS LONG AS they are used correctly and not used by an inexperienced or just a cruel person. And imo any Parelli student that does say differently I'd also not agree with....Pat Parelli uses spurs when he rides Magic, his main mare...he uses them as refinement and knows how to use them properly. 
Do I use spurs? No...I have not tried them nor do I plan on it. I "know" how to use them (the idea) but never used them. 




> Lo and behold, someone points out a promotional video in which Lord Parelli himself is riding with *gasp* spurs. Suddenly, the followers rush to defend him and his spur-wearing ways. _He_ knows how to use them, he's not really kicking the horse with them, just giving the horse light leg cues.


And alot of people know how to use them correctly, but I have also seen alot of "rough and tough cowboys" that turn a good refinement aid into a torture device as he kicks the horse to go with the sharp spurs on and then wonders why the horse misbehaves. 



> It really is pretty funny to watch them backpeddle. . .


Parelli students that know the program, and understand the fundamentals would have answered the same way as I have. Spurs are not a bad torture device in good hands, but they ARE in bad hands (errr feet in this instance). I have hundreds of friends that are Parelli students, and I know none would be anti-spurs if they are used for what they are meant to be, a refinment tool for cues.
Sadly I know and have seen many people not use spurs correctly and that's when it gets into being cruel and torture.

The bit is only as soft as the hands


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## Jolly Badger

Ohhh. . .right. . .I forgot. . .it's a "game." :lol: 

Silly me. Do the horses know it's supposed to be fun? They always look like they're bored out of their minds. 

Call it "circle game" or whatever you want, but the item used to play is no more than a glorified, $93 lunge line. 

Of course Pat doesn't control those prices, but I don't hear him complaining when the money from his followers rolls in, either.

Right now, I'm watching the videos on YouTube from the user names you posted. Waiting for something astounding to happen, actually. Well. . .I'm watching circus tricks, horses jumping over barrels (getting some very bad spots before take-offs, I noticed), people sprawled across their horses' backs, shaking carrot sticks in their faces. 

Fascinating. So, basically Parelli just packaged and sold a system for just getting to know your horse, for people who couldn't figure it out for themselves? 

If that's what floats the Parellites' boat. . .at least they will have plenty of nice, quality yacht rope.


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## Fancy Girl Haflinger

I do not know much about which ones are good and wich ones are bad but he ok :I i tried his methods but my horse just looked at me as if saying what the heck?


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## MyGalSal

Parelli is good for the entry level horseperson. Helps them to establish ground rules and gives them an understanding of horse behaviors, heirarchy, etc.


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## gypsygirl

Jolly Badger said:


> Ohhh. . .right. . .I forgot. . .it's a "game." :lol:
> 
> Silly me. Do the horses know it's supposed to be fun? They always look like they're bored out of their minds.
> 
> Call it "circle game" or whatever you want, but the item used to play is no more than a glorified, $93 lunge line.
> 
> Of course Pat doesn't control those prices, but I don't hear him complaining when the money from his followers rolls in, either.
> 
> Right now, I'm watching the videos on YouTube from the user names you posted. Waiting for something astounding to happen, actually. Well. . .I'm watching circus tricks, horses jumping over barrels (getting some very bad spots before take-offs, I noticed), people sprawled across their horses' backs, shaking carrot sticks in their faces.
> 
> Fascinating. So, basically Parelli just packaged and sold a system for just getting to know your horse, for people who couldn't figure it out for themselves?
> 
> If that's what floats the Parellites' boat. . .at least they will have plenty of nice, quality yacht rope.


its a game that the horse is supposed to lose...


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## simplysouthern

Parelli's program serves a purpose. It is great for inexperienced riders who need to learn how to establish control and ground manners. It also helps those who know how to ride but may lack chunks of their basics (I've seen a number of these out there over the years) and this program can build up their skills. 

On the other hand, my gelding and I got thrown into a parelli (teacher) clinic when the barn we were boarded at had it's official grand opening for the public (and other nosy horse people). The barn owner wanted a full class and decided we were good candidates. 

I'd never done Parelli, but at that point I'd had my gelding for 7 years and had a habit of riding him around the property bareback with nothing but a halter and leadrope. I guess other people were impressed by how he did his "first time" but I wasn't...we'd already done everything they showed us at somepoint in his general breaking/training/being my best buddy process.


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## kevinshorses

simplysouthern said:


> Parelli's program serves a purpose. It is great for inexperienced riders who need to learn how to establish control and ground manners. It also helps those who know how to ride but may lack chunks of their basics (I've seen a number of these out there over the years) and this program can build up their skills.
> .


You forgot those people with more money than brains that don't have enough useless crap. 

I laughed out loud in a previous post when the poster said that she had bought a 12 foot lead from the manufacturer for $20 less than the Parelli price. $20 is way too much to pay for a lead rope. That's hilarious!


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## HorsesAreForever

even though Clinton Anderson is almost the exact same as Parelli price wise.. everyone is fine with it.....

*rolls eyes* 

And will you stop saying that people who do parelli are usually inexperienced..... because that would be WRONG.... yes there are a handful of "new to horses/riding" people which is great there getting an AWESOME start IMO.

ALSO about the games.. yeah my horse LOVES to play with me! She offers everything and anything and actually has a HAPPY expression on her face. And shes not afraid to be a horse with me... not just a robotic thing... which im not saying all people who dont do parelli horses are like this.. ive just seen way to many.... and its sad.

The 7 games is teh BASICS but its the fundementals of the whole program but theres soooooo much more to it, which IF you studies the PROGRAM rather then based it on what you think.. or some crap videos you saw of people just starting [sorry!] ... then maybe you would know that. Oh and its not just "circus" tricks... but fine... call it what you will, its made my horse better and more well rounded. 

Im getting sick of this...


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## SavvyHearts

HorsesAreForever said:


> Im getting sick of this...


Amen to that.

I do believe there is a Conscientious Etiquette Policy that many are not following. Seems to me that if you are here simply to bash Parelli or natural horsemanship in general that you are breaking the forum rules.

Kevinshorses, I expected more from you. 


Can't people just live with the fact that there are many people, inexperienced and EXPERIENCED that benefit from Parelli Natural Horsemanship and it is a great way to communicate with a horse. Yes it's not the only way, but many people have chosen this route and have gone a long way
Just like anything, people disagree, but do we honestly have to start bashing and so on?


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## kevinshorses

SavvyHearts said:


> Kevinshorses, I expected more from you.


 
It's not just the Parelli people. Anyone that is so wrapped up in a certain trainer loses sight of the purpose of it all. Parelli has a more vocal and loyal following than most so they are targeted more often. The prices of all the NH crap makes me shake my head. When I went to CA the first time he had a little trailer with all the stuff he was selling inside. The last time I went it looked like the circus had come to town. There were 2 or 3 large circus like tents that were filled with crap he or his sponsors were selling. I can imagine it's the same for a lot of them now. That is the part I find hard to swallow and I don't miss too many chances to take a jab. As I have said many times in this and other threads all of these BNT's are great horseman and have done the horse world a great service but often times people lose the message in the retoric. You don't need to know how to play certain games or do one rein stops as badly as you need to know WHY you should do those things. Most people don't understand the why. They want to just do the how and get angry when it doesn't work.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

:lol:
Oh I am so glad I took the time to read this thread.

Bravo, Spyder and bravo, Kevin.


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## Amir

SavvyHearts said:


> It's not a lunge line nor do we lunge our horses. The circling game is entirely different than lunging.


How is the "circle game" different from lunging? Is it in the circle game you just stand still and in lunging you turn with the horse?


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## Maverick101

kevinshorses said:


> It's not just the Parelli people. Anyone that is so wrapped up in a certain trainer loses sight of the purpose of it all. Parelli has a more vocal and loyal following than most so they are targeted more often. The prices of all the NH crap makes me shake my head. When I went to CA the first time he had a little trailer with all the stuff he was selling inside. The last time I went it looked like the circus had come to town. There were 2 or 3 large circus like tents that were filled with crap he or his sponsors were selling. I can imagine it's the same for a lot of them now. That is the part I find hard to swallow and I don't miss too many chances to take a jab. As I have said many times in this and other threads all of these BNT's are great horseman and have done the horse world a great service but often times people lose the message in the retoric. You don't need to know how to play certain games or do one rein stops as badly as you need to know WHY you should do those things. Most people don't understand the why. They want to just do the how and get ****ed when it doesn't work.


Two thumbs up!

Horses as with any animal for that matter, there will be good things and not-so-much about certain trainers. I do find some things that Parelli teaches to be good advice....its his approach and marketing that leave my whiskers in a bunch....so in that regard I have no respect for him as a trainer. AS its about the horse, not the all mightey $dollar$
Every horse is different, so you cant say this way is the best way. 
That is like saying the only way to clean your bathroom is by using Mr. Clean. 

I personally take a little bit of ideas/concepts from varies clinicians, as well as my own experience and knowledge to find what works for me in that particular moment w/that particular horse.


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## Kayty

I havent looked at this thread before... but 110% with Spyder and Kevin. 
I find most of the parelli follows down my way to be like a cult in some ways. If you don't do it parelli's way you're 'abusing' your horse and not getting the results that your horse is capable of. I almost spat my coffee over something with laughter when they tried to give me a lecture on why I am a terrible horse person because I don't 'do Parelli'. 

What puts the icing on the cake for me however, is one girl I know who 'was' a faithfull Parelli cult member. 
She was/is a ery inexperienced horse person, brought an ottb and came to my coach for lessons. She was struggling with the horse and one day came off and broke her arm. Of course, she blamed my coach (she came off on her own property, not during a lesson).
6 weeks later when she could ride again, she decided that becomign a deciple of Parelli would solve all her problems and her horse would be perfect. So off she toddled, played the 7 games then moved onto the more advanced Parelli work- you know the ones where you can ride bareback, no bridle etc. with no helmet and you're horse WILL NOT SPOOK because it's Parelli trained and holds you in such high regard that it wouldn't dare hurt you?
So one day, she decides to take this beautifully behaved Parelli trained spook proofed horse down a busy road, amusing, past my coaches property, bareback, no bridle, no helmet (but of course the compulsary Parelli 'cowboy hat' and 'wonder rope'). Horse was fine, then she decided she might have a rest under a tree 'cowboy style'. So.... she ties her horse TO HER LEG!! (because Parelli says her horse won't spook now that it's trained properly) and goes to sleep. Of course, horse gets a fright, takes off down the road dragging her by the leg. ANother broken arm, and some good cuts... and this Parelli follower has decided that maybe the system is not so foolproof.


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## Kayty

Maverick101 said:


> I personally take a little bit of ideas/concepts from varies clinicians, as well as my own experience and knowledge to find what works for me in that particular moment w/that particular horse.


 Exactly, just because a system works for one horse doesn't mean it will for another. I, like you, try to soak up as much information as humanely possible from as many different sources as possible so that when I meet a hrose that one method doesn't work with, I will have plenty of tricks up my sleeve to try. None of my horses have been trained with one single training system, a bit of everything works wonders


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## HorsesAreForever

I just skimmed the recent replies but as it was said idk HOW many times, not all Parelli follower and none that I know think that if you dont do parelli your abusing your horses. -.-! 

and part of the program is learning WHY! you are doing what you are doing. Why you are disengaging there hind end etc. Its all part of the learning!

Lungeing is mircromangaging the horse, not allowing them to think about what gait to maintain... they are just told to continue the second they even LOOK like they might break. With the circle game the horse has a responsablity to maintain gait/direction without you standing there stareing at them and pushing them forward continuously. Lunging has its purposes, and so does the circle game. Neither one is better or worse for the horse. Both can be hard on the joints. 



> then she decided she might have a rest under a tree 'cowboy style'. So.... she ties her horse TO HER LEG!! (because Parelli says her horse won't spook now that it's trained properly) and goes to sleep


 ANYONE!!!!! who does this is just plan STUPID!!! Why blame the program for her stupidity?! Pat nor Linda EVER tell you its okay to tie your horse to the leg! 


and the program does work for all horses, some its a little more of a Challenge with. But if the owner sticks with it and takes the time to learn what their individual horse needs it WILL work.

Parelli ISNT the only way, im still learning about different methods and working on learning as much as I can....so that means studying other trainers. But I do mainly parelli with my 2 horses. Chance is at least a level 2/3 on ground, and one of the best mannered horses at the barn and very respectful of humans and I can so anything and everything with her. She use to be one of those horses who everyone said needed to be put down etc. Everyone whos see's her now is literally in shock and cant even believe that changes she has made. 

Little is just starting in the program and its a horribly dominate towards humans [kicks out, swings his head at you, agressive] but hes already making changes, maybe not fast as i'd but hes more respectful then he use to be.


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## kevinshorses

Kayty said:


> ANother broken arm, and some good cuts... and this Parelli follower has decided that maybe the system is not so foolproof.


Nothing is foolproof to a dedicated fool! Talk about a tough way to wake up.


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## SavvyHearts

The difference between lunging and the circling game is this:
Lunging you are micromanaging the horse, not trusting that he'll do his job which is to go around in a circle around you. You face him at all times remind him to trot when he's already trotting, and will give a random flick of the lunging whip. You are not trusting that he'll stay in the same gait, and saying trot while he's already trotting is just pointless IMO 
The circling game you are trusting that they will respond but ready to correct. You follow along until the horse slows down or speeds up like you wish, then go to neutral, letting the horse know that was the right thing to do. Pressure motivates, but it's the release that teaches. We stay neutral as long as the horse fulfills his part of the partnership:
*Act like a partner, not a predator
*Maintain Gait
*Maintain Direction
*Look Where you're going
The only time we come out of nuetral is to change something, like ask the horse to speed up or slow down, to switch directions or to stop. Or to correct a gait change or direction change.




> Exactly, just because a system works for one horse doesn't mean it will for another.


I'm sure I'll get my you know what chewed for this but I'm getting it anyways
Parelli will work for all horses, just not all people. Parelli is psychology and works to figure out how the horse ticks and what the horse is thinking and to get to where the horse wants to be a partner. I have seen Parelli work for hundreds of thousands of horses....the only time I've seen it "not work" is because the PERSON did it wrong, or was setting it up for failure or something like that. Give me any horse and we can succeed with Parelli, some may take a longer time some quite less it depends on how well the horse learns and what horsenality.




> So.... she ties her horse TO HER LEG!! (because Parelli says her horse won't spook now that it's trained properly) and goes to sleep. Of course, horse gets a fright, takes off down the road dragging her by the leg. ANother broken arm, and some good cuts... and this Parelli follower has decided that maybe the system is not so foolproof.


I'm sorry for this girl BUT there is no way that Parelli ever said to do that at all. Parelli's first thing is safety and if anyone has studied the program will know that. It was HER choice to go bareback, bridleless, and helmetless. I'm sure we ALL agree, wearing a helmet is a personal choice. I know there are many here that do not ride with a helmet on and I'm sure there is just as many that do. It's a personal choice in that matter, now let's NOT bring that into the subject.
It was her own stupidity to tie the horse to her leg....in no way does Parelli recommend this or even mention it (even if you use words against them like changing the meaning). She in turn was doing something stupid on her own free will, and because it was her choice to act like a show off and did things that were just totally stupid (was going to add another word there but figured I'd not break the rules :wink she kinda asked for it and maybe even deserved it. And it's girls like her that say they "follow" the program but only do to an extend (none of my friends that do Parelli would never do that) that give Parelli a bad name. 
And again, you are basing your opinions on a girl that clearly was not following the program. If she was she would have at least had the savvy not to ride by a busy road then tie her horse to her leg.
Horses are horses, they will spook. They are just animals. We can help them think more of a partner than a predator, but they are still horses.




> You don't need to know how to play certain games or do one rein stops as badly as you need to know WHY you should do those things. Most people don't understand the why. They want to just do the how and get angry when it doesn't work


Kevin, if they can't explain why they are doing something then yes they don't understand the program. My mother is a dressage rider, big bits, rolkur, the whole lot. She doesn't complete but wants to have her horse look as good as the ones competing. I get frowns and murmers all the time when I'm out riding with her or if I'm playing with my horse. I've had to explain every little thing from why do I sit on the ground when my mare goes right brain to why do I ask my gelding for less than what he is offering. 
Yes you NEED to know why you are doing it, not just that you are doing it. Pat realized that not many people actually do know why and when he put out the new level dvds (which are fantastic!! my fiance bought them for me ) he does ALOT of indepth explinations of wht the reasoning is for everything, then if he does something he explains it also.


As I've said before and Kayty has proved it once again, do NOT base your opinions off of people that do not know the program. That example she gave does not show a Parelli student, it shows me a person that just wants the name of it.


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## sillybunny11486

Its crap. spend your money on an actual instructor, who can help you when you need her. Unless of course the parellis are in your cell phone. Id rather learn how to teach a horse, rather then follow step by step instructions. They mass market it to everyone, some of these people have no idea the front of a horse from its butt.


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## Alwaysbehind

Silly question for the people that say the circle game and lunging are two very different things.

If you are at an event that says no lunging do you think that applies to your circle game too?


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## SavvyHearts

Alwaysbehind said:


> Silly question for the people that say the circle game and lunging are two very different things.
> 
> If you are at an event that says no lunging do you think that applies to your circle game too?


I never said it did not look similiar but the concepts and the actual process is totally different.




> Its crap. spend your money on an actual instructor, who can help you when you need her. Unless of course the parellis are in your cell phone. Id rather learn how to teach a horse, rather then follow step by step instructions. They mass market it to everyone, some of these people have no idea the front of a horse from its butt.


And that really shows how much you know. Parelli is not step by step instructors, please stop basing your "arguements" on untrue things, maybe try researching it before you say it's crap or not :wink:

Oh so some Parelli people have no idea which is the front and which is the butt? You just grasping for ideas now?

Honestly this does nothing but show ignorance on your part


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## Spirithorse

*stands up and applaudes* Your posts are amazing SavvyHearts!! 

It's really telling from someone's posts how LITTLE they actually know about the program. They'd like to think they know everything about the program, but they are sadly mistaken.


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## gypsygirl

its just like a lot of you guys in the CA thread =P

not being open minded to something you dont have a lot of knowledge of


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## Spirithorse

If you were referring to me, I do have knowledge of his program  I don't bash things I know nothing about, like some people.


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## Alwaysbehind

SavvyHearts said:


> I never said it did not look similiar but the concepts and the actual process is totally different.


I do not think that answers my question.


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## gypsygirl

my big problem with parelli is the whole helmet thing...but thats totally off topic

if he came to do a clinic near me & it was free i would go watch.

& spirithorse, dont mean to single you out, but you responded...you do seem very close minded to me


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## iridehorses

This has degraded to nothing but insults so it's closed.


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## farmpony84

When the OP asked "What do you really think of Parelli" I believe they left a really open ended question with intentions of starting a debate. The thread has become a debate and with this type of topic tempers can flair, especially when people are very passionate in their training method of choice. Please be careful to remain on topic, do not include any personal attacks in responses, and be mindful of the cosciencious ettiquet policy when responding to posts !


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