# Is my Trainer the Right One?



## ItsQuinn (Nov 7, 2021)

I am a student at a barn, and I own a horse. I would like to share my experiences about my trainer, and have other people's opinions and estimations on whether she's practicing abusive/deceitful methods to her students and horses. She has lots of knowledge on training, but I'm not sure if she's being completely transparent with her students. (Mind you, she doesn't get a lot of profits from her training business). Here are some experiences that I have had with my trainer down below, let's call her "Olivia":


A student had full leased a horse in the barn, and Olivia was putting that same horse up for lessons without the student's knowledge about it. (The student eventually left the barn and stopped leasing that horse when she found out.)
A student OWNS a horse, and Olivia put the horse up for lessons once again without the owner/student knowing anything about it; eventually the student/owner knew about it, and she and her horse moved to another barn. (I'm guessing she did this to earn more money, but I think she should have asked the owner/student first.)
-She once bought a horse for lessons, and put him on a lesson regime of more than 7 students weekly, with at least 3 to 4 rides a day. That horse was of old age, about 20 years old, and a few months ago she sold him. Now, she has only one horse for lessons, who is also of old age, and has put him on the same lesson regime, more than 7 students riding the same horse weekly, and about 3 rides a day. (The horse was lame more than once, and I feel that the horse is overworked, but again, I'm not entirely sure.)
- She leases and puts up horses for lessons even when they have some medical conditions, such as arthritis, white line, etc., but I'm not sure if that is a big concern because I know that horses can be ridden even if they have said conditions... but at that rate? Especially when they are old? I'm not a vet, so I have limited knowledge on that, that is why I thought to ask others for their opinion on the subject.
-She has very little money to care for horses, (as I said she has little profit coming out of her business) as she can sometimes even cut down on her food and eat smaller portions (which she admitted to us) for up to a month to provide for the horses for something as little as a martingale or girth. Now imagine the vet bills, etc., sometimes she even puts off the vet visits and postpones them.

This is all, I have been training under her for some time, and I wanted some opinions on whether she's the right trainer or not, as I have some doubts due to the reasons above. Have you also had similar experiences? And do you think I should find a better trainer? Those reasons didn't affect me, as I have my own horse, and pay for his boarding, vet bills, and all; but I wanted to know if she's a trusted trainer, as I have observed all these reasons and what she did to her other students, and if I should avoid her if anything happened in the future that required her transparency.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

If you're not happy. Leave. It's that simple.


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## HorseAndHoof (5 d ago)

ItsQuinn said:


> I am a student at a barn, and I own a horse. I would like to share my experiences about my trainer, and have other people's opinions and estimations on whether she's practicing abusive/deceitful methods to her students and horses. She has lots of knowledge on training, but I'm not sure if she's being completely transparent with her students. (Mind you, she doesn't get a lot of profits from her training business). Here are some experiences that I have had with my trainer down below, let's call her "Olivia":
> 
> 
> A student had full leased a horse in the barn, and Olivia was putting that same horse up for lessons without the student's knowledge about it. (The student eventually left the barn and stopped leasing that horse when she found out.)
> ...


She seems like quite the character. Something I’ve always found to look for in trainers is that they always put the horses needs first. So for example, giving a horse days off to cool down, not working them under a medical condition, and even retiring a horse if they seem unhappy with their work. If she’s helping you become a better rider, than that’s good, but what if she start using your horse for lessons without permission? It’s tricky to know who to trust in a world full of horse trainers since there are some pretty strange methods out there. Stick with your gut and take a look at all the facts, maybe have a few other people you trust who know horses get their opinion on this trainer?


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## DollyandAya (4 mo ago)

Doesn't sound good.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

You didn't mention the lessons you have and how you feel about them. Do you think you are getting good training with this person and doing well with your horse? If you feel she is a competent, good trainer and you are learning from her that is good.
The one thing I would be most worried about is my horse being used for lessons without my knowledge. That would be enough to make me move to another place. Unfortunately you have no say in how she handles her own horses and if this is a big concern and upsetting for you I would suggest moving


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## Palfrey (May 29, 2020)

If I am reading and comprehending this all correctly, it sounds like Olivia is essentially living paycheck to paycheck. And that is perhaps what is forcing her to use unscrupulous practices. I've seen barns that board a horse, use the horse for lessons, etc. but it was all with the owner's knowledge and consent. So what is really the sticking point here is her lack of transparency and forthrightness. 

I'm not really sure about keeping my horse there, because what is stopping her from using your horse without you knowing?

It sounds like she needs to sit down and rework her business plan, lessening the portions of her own (human) food to help float the business? So she's essentially going without? It may sound crazy, but I feel a little bit sorry for her. Perhaps this is her dream and she is struggling and doing what she can.


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## ItsQuinn (Nov 7, 2021)

Palfrey said:


> If I am reading and comprehending this all correctly, it sounds like Olivia is essentially living paycheck to paycheck. And that is perhaps what is forcing her to use unscrupulous practices. I've seen barns that board a horse, use the horse for lessons, etc. but it was all with the owner's knowledge and consent. So what is really the sticking point here is her lack of transparency and forthrightness.
> 
> I'm not really sure about keeping my horse there, because what is stopping her from using your horse without you knowing?
> 
> It sounds like she needs to sit down and rework her business plan, lessening the portions of her own (human) food to help float the business? So she's essentially going without? It may sound crazy, but I feel a little bit sorry for her. Perhaps this is her dream and she is struggling and doing what she can.


I honestly pity her sometimes, and she did mention before that it was her dream to run such business, but I just don't think it's right if you don't have enough money to support this business comfortably, and owning horses is undoubtedly expensive. It was kind of unbelievable when she told us that she cuts down on her food to help pay for things for her horses! Like why are you still doing this? It's honestly not fair for the owners of the horses and the horses themselves. Surprisingly, she has never done such things to my horse (use him for lessons without my knowledge/permission), and I think it's quite odd and I'm not completely sure what the reason is, but what she does to the other students is very amoral. My mom and I think it's crazy and we feel it's not okay to always be afraid that she'd do the same to my horse, so I'm seriously considering to move barns soon where I'll hopefully be comfortable.


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## ItsQuinn (Nov 7, 2021)

Woodhaven said:


> You didn't mention the lessons you have and how you feel about them. Do you think you are getting good training with this person and doing well with your horse? If you feel she is a competent, good trainer and you are learning from her that is good.
> The one thing I would be most worried about is my horse being used for lessons without my knowledge. That would be enough to make me move to another place. Unfortunately you have no say in how she handles her own horses and if this is a big concern and upsetting for you I would suggest moving


Contrary to her dishonest actions towards her students, she does provide quality training and has a lot of knowledge and I can say that my horse and I have been improving under her training. That is why I'm having a dilemma about moving barns, and will it be worth it? But I honestly think it's for the best because I don't want to always be worrying about whether she would do the same to my horse and I.


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Everything else aside, if she is using someone else's horse without permission she won't scruple to use mine. No. I'm out.
Trust is gone. We all have money troubles from time to time. We don't all lie and cheat to get by.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

How do you know that she is not using your horse when you are not around? Have talked to her ? I feel sort of sorry for Olivia, but she needs to either charge more for lessons or get out of business because she will continue to do this . It is cruel to use an old horse that many times a day with no days off. How much is charging for lessons? Do you ever take her a lunch now and then since you know she is struggling ? Do you like your lessons ? Is your horse being fed enough ? Are the lesson horses being fed? Are their feet kept trimmed or shod ?


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

@Palfrey


> If I am reading and comprehending this all correctly, it sounds like Olivia is essentially living paycheck to paycheck. And that is perhaps what is forcing her to use unscrupulous practices. ...


No-one "forces" you to deal dishonestly. What Olivia needs is someone to review her business practices to see where she can improve her situation. It sounds to me that she has the ideal and the means to start this business but lacks in the basic realities of running it as a business. I am glad you think she is a good trainer, with the right help now she could still make a decent business of it. But she needs to sort having enough school ponies to carry the load with a couple of days off each, and definitely stop using other peoples' horses without *written *permission, and the horses' owners should get some recompense for that use. Trust is *everything *in this game.

Since you are considering leaving, you could be the one to say something. Worst she can do is kick you out. If she takes heed, she might thank you one day. It is never easy to be the one in the position of speaking home truths and I know it can lose friendships, but moving barns is going to lose this friendship anyway and you just may influence Olivia's business positively.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

How do any of us know the other side of the story? We don't know whether full lease on a lesson horse is at the owner/ trainer's discretion where the other lesson user is in no conflict and only used for those lessons. No outside time. A fit horse can be ridden multiple times - the only restriction I'd say needs placed is jumping but scheduled in a reasonable manner can be done with multiple riders. It could also be that horses not owned by her and used for others with permission. This happens or can happen when horse is owned and bills paid by a parent. Owner wants to lower board bills and it benefits both. Child may or may not know or even agree but the decision is not theirs. Perhaps the trainer does need to increase prices - maybe those that can't afford the increase can trade time to offset thar rise.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I think you don't understand what a "full-lease" may be in some situations...
Some places it means the horse _*is*_ still utilized for lessons, but not extra rides often referred to as "free-rides"...
You also _*speculate*_ on someone leaving the barn. The _*truth*_ of why they relocated could be for many reasons and...even what may have been told to you is only one-side of the story of what occurred or why.

I worked the industry for many years. I saw many come and go for many reasons....trainer fad of the month following and a multitude of riders leave {all came back too in another month in our situation}
I did partial $ entries & wrote board bills....can tell you positively that it was not the same costs and fees everyone paid.
Boarders depending upon how long they were with the barn as a boarder paid different because they moved in at different base rates, so when increases happened it was a addition to that price charged....sometimes that could mean hundreds, then depending upon the style of board from lesson to training to a scheduled exercise ride again different numbers.
In the end, it added up to sometimes several hundred dollars difference between this one and that one...and you would have no knowledge of any of it cause, sorry but it is none of your business even if you work for her your salary is private between employer and employee. I can tell you factually stall cleaner/mucker were paid different amounts too.

I do wonder if there is something in writing with some boarders that their horses are in "schooling/exercise board" type of boarding situation..... not training, but a schooling which can absolutely be done by a rider under watchful eyes to keep them honest from bad habits learned, work them from bad habits learned, or just as a exercise session and a lesson with a rider in lesson or just free-ride rider told what to work on can accomplish = she has permission.
You as outside eyes looking in would have no idea of private details & arrangements between owners and barn including the instructor.

In honesty could finances be tight and she barely be making it...._ Absolutely..._
As with everything else, prices have gone up for not only hay and feed costs, but electric she uses, diesel or gas for tractors and lawn mowers she uses for property maintenance, garbage disposal, vet & farrier and if she carries insurance...I know my insurance rates have gone up this year...
There is nothing that has not increased day to day.
Unless she also has raised board between $100 - $150 _per horse minimum_ for board and lessons up at least $15 per lesson in the last year then she is a fantastic money-manager keeping the doors open for boarders and lessons in reality.
_{My costs to feed/keep my 2 horses home have increased $82 a month currently from a year ago. That is just hay, feed & farrier... Now add in vet, stall shavings/bedding, then figure in increased rent/mortgage & electric from my house expenses.Yikes! I forgot employees salaries increase too..}_
Just remember those that may have a different arrangement than you also pay different than you, may mean less coming in but the same $ usage costs to feed and such seen.
That is the reality of the boarding and lesson business as I know it....what you perceive looking in from the outside is very much _not_ the case in $$ rolling in the door monthly.
Just be aware.

On the other hand, because you not think this involves yours but have knowledge of her using other animals...indeed it could be happening without permission to yours too.
Barns like this if you _can't_ trust them to keep their hands off your animal, for me its time to go to a place where I _can_ trust.
You are not their 24/7 or all hours of every day when the barn is open....you do have a pattern to what day and time you arrive...so indeed it is very easy to "use"....
Be vigilant and aware of your horses demeanor and habits when handling...all clues when you are honest in what the horse does under-saddle with you and on the ground handling.
🐴... _jmo..._


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## ItsQuinn (Nov 7, 2021)

horselovinguy said:


> I think you don't understand what a "full-lease" may be in some situations...
> Some places it means the horse _*is*_ still utilized for lessons, but not extra rides often referred to as "free-rides"...
> You also _*speculate*_ on someone leaving the barn. The _*truth*_ of why they relocated could be for many reasons and...even what may have been told to you is only one-side of the story of what occurred or why.
> 
> ...


We personally know the owner of the horse, and the student that leased the horse, and they told us what happened (the owner of the horse who was being used for lessons unbeknownst to her complained about the issue and left the barn for said reason, as I said we know her personally as she is a friend) So I'm sure about what occurred; there weren't any arrangements between her and the trainer that we didn't know about, she told us the whole side of her story and was obviously upset when she told us that her horse was being used for lessons. My trainer defined a "full lease" as being the horse not being used for lessons and only the rider who leases the horse to be riding the horse, a partial/half lease would be two riders riding the same horse. But that doesn't concern me, what concerns me is the horse who was owned who was being used for lessons without the owner's knowledge about it, and that really irks me, and the fact that she probably overworks senior horses. "Olivia" is a trainer at a barn, but she isn't the owner of the barn, and the owner of the barn is candid and honest about her boarding prices at the barn; everybody pays the same reasonable amount . I just assumed that finances could be tight for her, but I'm not entirely sure if that's true, I just know that she clearly isn't being transparent with her students. And yes, thank you! I will definitely keep an eye out, and I'm seriously considering moving barns to be comfortable.


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## ItsQuinn (Nov 7, 2021)

QtrBel said:


> How do any of us know the other side of the story? We don't know whether full lease on a lesson horse is at the owner/ trainer's discretion where the other lesson user is in no conflict and only used for those lessons. No outside time. A fit horse can be ridden multiple times - the only restriction I'd say needs placed is jumping but scheduled in a reasonable manner can be done with multiple riders. It could also be that horses not owned by her and used for others with permission. This happens or can happen when horse is owned and bills paid by a parent. Owner wants to lower board bills and it benefits both. Child may or may not know or even agree but the decision is not theirs. Perhaps the trainer does need to increase prices - maybe those that can't afford the increase can trade time to offset thar rise.


We personally know the owner of the horse, and the student that leased the horse, and they told us what happened (the owner of the horse who was being used for lessons unbeknownst to her complained about the issue and left the barn for said reason, as I said we know her personally as she is a friend, note that she's over 18 and only she owns the horse, nobody else) So I'm sure about what occurred; there weren't any arrangements between her and the trainer that we didn't know about, she told us the whole side of her story and was obviously upset when she told us that her horse was being used for lessons. She explained before that a "full lease" in her terms would mean the horse being used by only one rider and not used for any lessons, and that a half/partial lease would mean two or three riders riding the same horse. Her lessons or training for the horses are $80 per session, and the other barns in our area usually charge more than that.


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## ItsQuinn (Nov 7, 2021)

stevenson said:


> How do you know that she is not using your horse when you are not around? Have talked to her ? I feel sort of sorry for Olivia, but she needs to either charge more for lessons or get out of business because she will continue to do this . It is cruel to use an old horse that many times a day with no days off. How much is charging for lessons? Do you ever take her a lunch now and then since you know she is struggling ? Do you like your lessons ? Is your horse being fed enough ? Are the lesson horses being fed? Are their feet kept trimmed or shod ?


I haven't talked to her about using the owned/leased horses for lessons, as I'm somewhat afraid about what reply I'm going to get.. I know it's the right thing to do, but I also feel like it's none of my business on how she deals with her horses. I do agree it's cruel, and I honestly feel helpless about that fact. We have actually invited her to our house times over dinner! That is how she admitted it to us actually! I do like my lessons, I feel that I'm improving with my horse and I, but I don't think it's fair that she'd take the owner's horse and use it for lessons behind her back. My horse is being fed enough since she's not the one paying for his food, (I pay for my horse's feed, vet bills, boarding, etc.) what I'm worrying about is the senior lesson horses that are under her care, but they are not visibly starving; they may be lame/overworked though. The farrier does come often, yes, but I have never seen the farrier doing it on her lesson horses, I only "hear" and she only "tells us" about her calling the farrier for her lesson horse.


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## ItsQuinn (Nov 7, 2021)

ShirtHotTeez said:


> @Palfrey
> 
> 
> No-one "forces" you to deal dishonestly. What Olivia needs is someone to review her business practices to see where she can improve her situation. It sounds to me that she has the ideal and the means to start this business but lacks in the basic realities of running it as a business. I am glad you think she is a good trainer, with the right help now she could still make a decent business of it. But she needs to sort having enough school ponies to carry the load with a couple of days off each, and definitely stop using other peoples' horses without *written *permission, and the horses' owners should get some recompense for that use. Trust is *everything *in this game.
> ...


I have just responded to a message asking me if I talked about the issue about using owned horses for lessons with her, but I'm too afraid to get her reply or worse, if she'll kick me out. That's why I'm planning to talk to her about it when I move barns. Olivia does have great knowledge about horses and training, but I don't think she has the best horse business out there, especially when she uses senior horses for lessons, and may be overworking them. I do agree that she should get at least another lesson horse to balance.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

If you're so sure of this bad behavior on the trainer's part, then why aren't you at a new stable already? Posting about it this way really comes across as meddling and immature. Unless you are a business partner or an owner of the lesson horses, it's really not your concern what personal tradeoffs your trainer is making to support her business or how she is scheduling her horses for vet/farrier. Any problems other owners had with the trainer were rectified by them moving to a new barn, which it sounds like you should also do. A fit, happy lesson horse used for a program of 7 riders a week must have a lot of days off. Doing 2-4 lessons per day, 4-5 days a week really isn't that unusual for a lesson horse, particularly if they are basic 30-45 minute flat lessons without intensive jumping. A 20 year old horse is not "old" and decrepit-it's actually a pretty ideal profile for a lesson horse- and again, if he's used for teaching basic w/t/c lessons a few days a week, there is nothing cruel and abusive about that schedule. 

The horse world is small, and these kind of snippy, gossipy posts on social media only serve to reinforce the idea that "barn drama" is the norm.


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## ItsQuinn (Nov 7, 2021)

egrogan said:


> If you're so sure of this bad behavior on the trainer's part, then why aren't you at a new stable already? Posting about it this way really comes across as meddling and immature. Unless you are a business partner or an owner of the lesson horses, it's really not your concern what personal tradeoffs your trainer is making to support her business or how she is scheduling her horses for vet/farrier. Any problems other owners had with the trainer were rectified by them moving to a new barn, which it sounds like you should also do. A fit, happy lesson horse used for a program of 7 riders a week must have a lot of days off. Doing 2-4 lessons per day, 4-5 days a week really isn't that unusual for a lesson horse, particularly if they are basic 30-45 minute flat lessons without intensive jumping. A 20 year old horse is not "old" and decrepit-it's actually a pretty ideal profile for a lesson horse- and again, if he's used for teaching basic w/t/c lessons a few days a week, there is nothing cruel and abusive about that schedule.
> 
> The horse world is small, and these kind of snippy, gossipy posts on social media only serve to reinforce the idea that "barn drama" is the norm.


Hello there, as I said, I posted this so I can have other opinions. I'm not sure how that would be immature? Only snapping at others this way would be. No drama here, if you believe this post was immature no need to take the time to respond and participate in the drama  I was having sort of a dilemma and being hesitant, because this trainer is knowledgeable about her training with horses and students, however, isn't really truthful with them. And moving to barns isn't as easy as you think, unfortunately I'm not rich, at least it isn't easy for me. Why is it wrong to be concerned about the senior horses? Those horses don't have a single day off. No w/t/c lessons, they are jumped 1.20m, 1 hour lesson, 3 times a day. Those horses aren't ridden by children, there are grown adults who ride them. I have taken the estimations of professionals and they have confirmed that a 20 year old horse is a senior, and should start be ridden less, and not overworked. I agree that senior horses should have a decent amount of exercise, but with this sort of exercise I think that they would deteriorate.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

ItsQuinn said:


> And moving to barns isn't as easy as you think, unfortunately I'm not rich, at least it isn't easy for me


Sounds like you understand your trainer better than you think! 😉 Good luck.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

ItsQuinn said:


> I haven't talked to her about using the owned/leased horses for lessons, as I'm somewhat afraid about what reply I'm going to get.. I know it's the right thing to do, but I also feel like it's none of my business on how she deals with her horses. I do agree it's cruel, and I honestly feel helpless about that fact. We have actually invited her to our house times over dinner! That is how she admitted it to us actually! I do like my lessons, I feel that I'm improving with my horse and I, but I don't think it's fair that she'd take the owner's horse and use it for lessons behind her back. My horse is being fed enough since she's not the one paying for his food, (I pay for my horse's feed, vet bills, boarding, etc.) what I'm worrying about is the senior lesson horses that are under her care, but they are not visibly starving; they may be lame/overworked though. The farrier does come often, yes, but I have never seen the farrier doing it on her lesson horses, I only "hear" and she only "tells us" about her calling the farrier for her lesson horse.


If the lessons horses hooves were never done, it would show. They would have long hooves, I would expressly tell her your horse is never to be used in her lesson program. You take a chance. She could drop you as a client. If you have an issue it is better to go the person directly.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I also think that because your friend left, that you want to .


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