# horse panics when tied solid



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I'm typing this with one hand because my right wrist is swollen and painful. Hubby thinks I should have it looked at but I'm confident it isn't broken, just badly bruised.

I decided to wash both horses tonight in an effort to soothe the nasty welts on them from moose flies. For washing, I tie them to a 10 ft long 2 x 6 nailed to two large posts sunk in the ground. I do this all the time. As I was washing Kodak, she had flies on her face so since I was standing in front of her (on the other side of the board, luckily), I reached over to brush them off. I do this all the time too. In fact, sometimes, she walks up to me so I'll scratch her between the eyes and brush flies off her. But this time, she pulled back and when she realized she was tied solid, she panicked. As I reached under the board to try to release the quick-release knot, the board let go and must have hit my wrist. I don't actually remember feeling it because I was watching in horror as she went backwards, the board coning down on top of her. She got up, took a couple of steps, and started grazing, The lead rope had come off the board. I gave her a minute, then slowly walked over and picked up the end of the lead rope. With gentle pressure, I led her back to where I was washing her, and hosed her down thoroughly. She was fine with it. It was only when I had her safely back in her stall that I saw my blue, swollen wrist. I have been icing it since.

Some history on this mare: 90% of the time, she's sweet and kind, and very willing and cooperative. The other 10% she may have a complete meltdown for no good reason. She will spook, but usually, it's manageable. She is anxious and hyper sensitive, and can go from zero to 60 in a few seconds. I saw her get bitten by a fly in the pasture and she took off like a rocket. She has pulled back on the cross ties when my farrier ducked under her neck, to the point where she half-reared. My farrier is great with horses, even difficult ones, but was just surprised by this sudden reaction from a horse that was perfectly relaxed before. She described it as a flashback. I do have knowledge that she was treated roughly in the past, specifically by the head. She was extremely head-shy when I bought her, but she now trusts me to halter, bridle and handle her, and will let others pat her on the head (she wouldn't let anyone near her at first). But of course, there's no way of knowing whether this panicky behavior that causes her to spook or pull back or bolt was caused by bad experiences or whether she was born this way. I'm just trying to give a good picture of her behavior. 

I guess I have a few questions. The first one is whether a horse like this can ever change. I admit, it shakes my confidence a little when things like this happen. I force myself to get back on, to get her back under control and work with her, but it's hard. Maybe a trainer could help (I brought one in last summer to desensitize her and it did help). Or do I just have to be aware that it can happen anytime?

If this is something we can work on, how would you go about it? She's already on magnesium. I don't think these episodes coincide with her cycle, but it's hard to say. And the flies are really, really horrible this year, which drives her crazy. We call them moose flies because they are so bad, they will literally drive moose out of the woods onto roads in an effort to get away from them.

And for everyone's safety, would you use a breakaway halter or is that just teaching her she can get away if she pulls back hard enough? Her getting loose is not a worry. She is highly submissive and bonded with my gelding Harley so she never goes anywhere without him. Worse case scenario, if I couldn't get a halter on her, I'd open the paddock gate and she'd willingly walk in. Or is a breakaway just reinforcing the idea that she can get out of being tied solid?

Finally, is this just the sort of thing that happens with horses, and I'm just over-reacting? Is this just something that comes with the territory when you're dealing with a 1200 lb flight animal? Or am I in over my head here? 

This mare has many qualities, and we've come a long way together. I don't want to give up on her, but sometimes I wish I had a horse I could trust more. But maybe, like the mythical unicorn, that horse doesn't really exist. So if you all tell me this is just what comes with the territory, then I will suck it up and push through because the joy I get from my horses outweighs the risks. However, if I can improve the experience, and keep everyone safe (I can't help but think about the outcome if I had been standing on the other side of that board when it came off), then I'd love to hear it. As I'm sure you can tell, I'm not a huge risk-taker by nature. 

Hoping I can use my right hand again tomorrow. Or soon... since my daughter and her gelding have a show on the weekend!


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## Mewlie (Apr 14, 2017)

Ouch! I hope your wrist feels better quickly and there's nothing seriously wrong with it.

I'm no trainer but I have noticed in my experience with horses, especially ones that have trauma/abuse in their pasts, is that no matter how much you work with that horse there is no way to completely erase those memories; thus, I would personally never trust that horse 100%. I say 'trust' in the sense that I would never let my guard down. No matter how many times you successfully brush flies off the face, there can be that one instance (like this case) where a dozen factors might have triggered the freak out. Unconsciously moving a tad too fast, she was distracted and didn't realize what you were doing, a sound/smell, etc. The more you work with the horse the less likely these occurrences are to happen, but there's always that chance. 

Shoot, even with horses that have led marvelous lives and have no traumas - like you said - they are still massive prey animals that when surprised/scared/whatnot will react with flight. 

I wish you all the best with your mare and hope instances like this don't happen again!


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## mckenzies (May 26, 2017)

I would say if a trainer helped you think first time, I would continue on that route. Its hard to tell if your mare is coming from a place of fear or is just acting out, or maybe both? I used to ride a dramatic mare that would literally throw herself on the ground if you were holding her and she was being bothered by flies. Got rope burn a couple good times from her flailing around like a maniac. With time and lots training she did get better, but it never fully remedied. We learned from a neighbor of the former owner he would beat her between the eyes with a dressage whip because she had a tendency to nip when being tacked up. She's always been severely headshy and slightly untrusting.

I would never advise any one to use anything other than a break away halter. It does take quite a bit for them to break, so if a horse is at the point where they're gathering the strength to break it out of fear, you probably need it to avoid injury. While leather can snap under the weight of a horse, nylon halters stretch and pose a threat to your horses poll and have the potential to make a rough situations much worse.


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## mckenzies (May 26, 2017)

Sorry for all the typos- autocorrect on my phone


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Well first thing, do yourself a favor and get a REAL hitching post, not the equivalent of a fence board. What I would do is get a very tall one that allows you to tie the horse higher than its withers (or just tie to a tree). This way, if the horse does pull back, it's not as violent, they can't put as much force into it. If I were you, I would build one from the massive logs you probably have around. A patience pole can be a much better option, no boards available to go flying.

https://www.google.com/search?q=hitching+post&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS751US751&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZr9DD6pHVAhXJj1QKHR_sDt8Q_AUICygC&biw=1280&bih=670#tbm=isch&q=horse+patience+pole

If the mare doesn't pull on her tie, you could always opt to just loop it round rather than tie. Personally, I would prefer to tie her higher than her wither and let her learn how to stand tied and not pull back.

It does take time for abused animals to come round. My mother's cat she's had for 5 or 6 years. The cat was very afraid of people and being touched in certain places when she got her, and she HATED men. Now, this cat comes out to visit everybody, and has even taking a liking to my husband. She is sweet and looks for attention, does not hiss or claw anymore, and has done a complete 180 as compared to the cat she used to be.

It takes time. Expect situations like this to happen if you don't take the necessary precautions, and every once in a great while, a fluke accident happens even when you do everything right.

There ARE those perfect horses out there. But they are darn sure hard to find. They are made, not usually born. Typically, they are old horses. They've had a lifetime of good handling, and now babysit the grandkids. Horses like that aren't usually sold.

If you take anything away from this post, anything at all, take this: Tie her HIGHER than her wither to something very sturdy!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi, 

Firstly, NEVER, EVER tie a horse to something that's only nailed on, or otherwise breakable! It's extremely lucky the leadrope came loose from the board, or you could have had a panicking, bolting horse being 'chased' by a piece of timber with nails in it! Seen it happen & it never ends nicely.

Secondly, if you think the horse is inclined to panic at being tied, DON'T TIE HER until you have trained her to stand tied & yield to pressure & not pull back at all. *Sounds contradictory, but there are ways to 'tie' without it being solid.

Thirdly I hope your wrist comes good soon. I somehow got my finger wrenched in a horse's halter months ago when he pulled back. Hardly hurt & I was able to finish the job(was there trimming) but my finger was swollen & a bit... strange looking. Figured it was sprained, strapped it up & ignored it for a while. A week later, didn't look any better, but didn't hurt, so kept ignoring it... Never did get around to getting it seen to. Now I reckon in hindsight I did break it, or maybe dislocate it & tore ligaments. I can't straighten it or bend it fully - & it would have ossified pretty well by now! Moral to the story is, don't leave it too long to get it checked out properly if it's not obviously healing well!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Good advise from horseluvr2524 and Loosie, esp on what you use to tie to
On a horse that has a history of being head shy, I would un tie the horse to do anything around the head, like applying fly repelant or gently running a hose on the face and neck
In fact , even on my horses that tie well, I will wash the entire body with the hrose tied solid, but will untie the horse and hold it with one hand, while using the hose on the face
You are going to have to accept that a horse who has a reason to be head shy, while they can be re trained, up to a point, sudden movement around the head can cause them to revert instinctively, not thinking for that moment in time, just reacting on memory
Far as tying, I don't use break away halters, but I do make sure that the horse is very very solid on giving to pressure before tying the hat horse up solid
I have heard of many wreaks, with people tying horses to rails or boards and even to panels, that can pull away, so that alone was a very important lesson, and you are lucky that the lead rope slipped off
I was on a trail ride once, where someone tied their horse to a dead little tree at noon break The horse panicked, pulled back and then dragged that dead tree among the other tied horses. I was lucky in the fact that my horse was tied separate from the main group!
The only time I use a break away halter, is when I turn a horse out with a gazing muzzle that attaches to that halter
My trailer has panic snaps
I have used a body rope to 'cure'a confirmed halter puller, like the mare I bought of the track, as she was dangerous the way she was, sitting back whenever you tied her, including in the trailer, and then standing after two or three attempts, providing that the halter did not break.
Not suggesting you do that, as it has to be done correctly, and having a horse tie solid is not as important to all people, so have no problem with those that chose to work around that problem, never trusting to tie a horse solid, using twine, just wrapping the lead, ect
It is an individual comfort choice.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Some horses seem to be prone to panicking when tied solid and some don't. My very first horse (an Arabian gelding who was an awesome first horse for me) had this issue. He didn't do it all the time, but when he did he made an impression. He once took a barn door off the top hinge. (I learned not to tie to barn doors.) He broke a lead rope snap once and another time he started thrashing in a horse trailer when he was tied (very scary as I was in there with him!). 

So I would say this is a common problem, but not all horses do it. None of my horses since then have had a real problem with it (I say "real" problem because I have seen other horses do it once, only if the circumstances were just right, like they truly panicked about something.) 

But my first horse, it was definitely a problem he had that he would react to if something triggered it. For him, the most usual trigger was getting the lead rope over the top of his head or around his ears. Even today, if one of my other horses puts their head down and brings it back up and the rope is over their ears, I get a little panicky feeling inside. But they don't set-back that way. That's what I always called it, setting-back. 

So it's not something every horse does, but a certain percentage of horses will do it and I think it's a natural thing for a horse to have a tendency to do. I always suspected with my guy, he had some messed up training when he was little and learned he could thrash and break loose. I actually took to tying him in a "Be Nice halter" so he couldn't break loose. And it worked. He learned that was painful and he couldn't break the halter and he got better over the years. But I really don't recommend that. I learned years later that you are not supposed to tie in those halters (they are for leading issues and have strong pressure points). But instead of going the break-away route I went with the "you are NOT going to break-away" route. And that worked for him, but he never got over that tendency completely. And if you aim to tie solid, you better have a strong tie rail or post.

Actually, what might be a good idea for your girl (besides a hitching rail she can't break) is one of those sliding tie rings some of the natural horsemanship people promote. It looks like 1/2 of a snaffle bit and you slide your lead rope through there and it will give a little when the horse panics but won't release them completely. That might be something to look into. She can't thrash if she has nothing to brace against.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm being selfish and not reading all the posts since the OP before replying.

First of all, I am so glad you seem to have come away unscathed. Such hard pulling panics are really scary. we had an incident at our barn where a horse pulled back, paniced and pulled a somewhat rooten hitching post (like in the movies style) right OUT OF THE GROUND!! They don't call it horse power for nothin'!!

So, while you can't always stop these things, it's important that any horizontally tacked on board be on the OUTSIDE of the support posts, so horse cannot pull it off of its supports.

Secondly, please forgive me for not knowing the whole story, by how did you come to own what seems like an unsuited horse for your needs as I understand them from other posts I've read.

Thirdly, when people say a hrose is 'good' 90% of the time, and tense/spooky only 10% , are really just not seeing the 'tense' problem in their horse, but I guarantee you, it's there 100% of the time.
That's why it's so important to really observe your horse, and not discount things you see, in ordinary circumstances, that tell you your superficially calm horse is actually just barely hanging on by a thread to not become an anxious mess.

If the horse has an issue with pulling back and panicking with that pressured/trapped feeling, it will manifest itself in very small ways in daily horse life. A keen eye will see a tense horse, even when the horse is being a 'good girl'

Now , saying that might not help you deal with this problem, but I only say that to invite you to consider that you might not be seeing it at other times, but the trouble is there, underneath, all the time, so . . . to not be surprised or dissappointed by this happening.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

First, be smart & safe and go get your hand checked out. It's probably not broken, but if it is, those tiny bones in the hand can wreak absolute havoc if not cared for properly. You're also an artist, your hands are your livelihood. 

Next, check out the Blocker Tie Ring to help avoid the panic when tying. It's an excellent tool and a good way to work around the problem without getting you hurt again. Ditto on what everyone said about what you tied to....read that and said, "YIKES!" because I too had visions of the mare running with a 2 X 6 chasing her through the woods. Glad the rope slipped, that could have had some seriously disastrous consequences. 

Can she be trained out of it? 97% of the time, probably. But there's always that 3% of the time (and that's for EVERY horse) that something is going to cause panic and mayhem. Read my thread about how Twoey just got through doing a tap dance on my head for further illustration of what not to do and how fast a situation can go straight to the devil and get you hurt or killed. 

I only use a breakaway halter if I HAVE to leave a halter on an unsupervised horse. For tying, I don't. I don't ever want them to learn that the halter will break and they can get loose. After being in the business for too many years to count, I have come to the opinion that if they get past the Jeff Foxworthy moment of "Hurt like Hades, bet you won't do that no more." to killing themselves over being tied, then they were too stupid to live. From training babies to tie, what I have seen is, they'll throw a wall eyed fit and pull back and jump around (why you tie higher than the withers) and every now and then they'll get themselves hung upside down and can't get back on their feet. At that point the fight goes out of them and they give up and you can go in and unclip the lead and they'll stand up with a "WTH?" look on their face. Clip them back up and they usually tie just fine after that. Not recommending that as a course of action for your horse just saying what can happen and how I've seen it go here. 

We had a very halter trained Arab mare who was a lot like your horse. Most of the time she held herself together and acted like she liked life. And she hung herself upside down from the patience tree because she panicked one day. She only did it once, but she was prone to those meltdowns too. She had been very harshly trained and even though she was better, she never completely got over it. We were always careful about how fast we moved, how much noise and what types of noise we made and so on. She was great in the ring, even though she was always scared to death of making a mistake, but I wouldn't have trusted her on the trail if she was the last horse on earth.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I agree, go get your hand checked out. 

Never forget that these are horses. Giant prey animals with tiny brains the size of walnuts, and for some reason we , the little predators with the large brain, have decided that we can ask them to do all of these things that go totally against their INSTINCT. Instinct trumps training every time. 

If you are not able to accept that, then selling is the best thing to do.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks all! Too many responses to address individually. Especially with one bad hand. It is a bit better today, though the whole arm is sore, but I think it should be good as new in a few days. If not, I will get it looked at. 

Our hitching post really is quite solid, and had stood up to the horses putting normal amounts of pressure on it (reaching down to try to get grass, etc.), but I agree with all of you. She will not be tied to something like this ever again. I do like the concept of a hitching post because those "patience poles" will just encourage her to swivel around, which is annoying. Better annoying than seriously injured though! I take responsibility for tying her there, and will look into those rings someone mentioned. In the meantime, I will "loose tie" her. I often do that when I'm tacking her up, for instance. She is very good about it, and prefers the feeling of a loose lead (will hold still) to that tightness which makes her panic. I tend not to put her on cross ties, but have done so to make it easier for the farrier. She has never pulled back like she did yesterday in the amount of time I've had her (a little over a year). I now wonder whether I should put her on cross ties, or just hold onto her lead as the farrier works on her. My farrier has even offered to work on her outside if that's more comfortable to her, but I wanted her to get used to cross-ties. 

I understand that I should be able to solid tie my horse. But honestly, it's just not worth the risk of injury to her, or to people around her. If I'd had some way to just release the pressure a little, I think she would have settled down. I'd rather have her grazing on the lawn than running around with a 10 foot long board behind her. Given my level of expertise, I feel I have to pick my battles. She will ground tie perfectly, will stand still all tacked up in the riding ring while I walk around setting up jumps for my daughter, will stand quietly with a lead just loosely draped over the stall door, so for now, that will have to do. 

To answer tiny's question about how I came to own this horse, and how she is probably nervous all the time: I agree, that energy is there all the time. I've been in the pasture giving her scratches, and sometime spooked her, so she jumped and planted one of her feet solidly on my boot. I've hit the ground twice when she spooked while I was riding (but that was right after I bought her, over a year ago). I have several threads about Kodak, so I won't go in a lot of detail, but she was sold to me as bombproof and beginner-safe. I rode her twice, on different days, on a trail, and in an arena, and she was fine. My 12 year old rode her too. She passed the PPE with flying colours. I brought her home, and she was a different horse. Drugs? Possibly. However, as I said, 90% of the time, she's fine. but that 10% (it might be more like 2%, but when it happens, it's enough to have a big impact on me!) she's unpredictable. Maybe we rode her on good days. I contacted the seller, who basically said it was our fault. I found one of her previous owners who said that yes, she had issues, and that she had made those issues known to the buyer, who neglected to disclose them to us. At that point, I just wanted to sell her, but my 12 year old got upset, wanted to keep her, and I felt I should explore all options to show her how to be a responsible animal owner. I contacted a trainer, who spent 6 weeks with us, and helped us deal with the spooking. She still spooks - but they're more like spooks in place, than nuclear explosions, so I can ride them out and get her under control. So yes, that nervous energy is always there. I know it, and stay aware of it. I cannot ride her passively. It has made me a much better rider, and a much more safety-aware horse owner. Granted, yesterday, I let my guard down and am paying for it. 

Her qualities: on the ground, she has impeccable manners and will follow my every move. She is willing, and has a big try. She has never tried to bite, kick, charge, or intentionally hurt someone. Even when she spooks on the ground, she will spook away from me, not into me. On a trail, she is never jiggy, doesn't balk or refuse to go past things. Of course I have to be aware that she can spook at things, but those are things she might not normally see. A bicycle, for example. Birds, deer, or other animals, don't bother her. She can now deal with plastic bags and tarps. Will stare at new objects like farm machinery, but will accept them. She doesn't rush home, and has a nice forward walk which is perfect for trail riding. I just mention these qualities to explain why I think she's worth keeping despite her nervous energy. She's also progressed nicely with me. I am now riding her bitless and she has responded wonderfully. I thought she wouldn't like the poll pressure, but oddly, she is much more relaxed than she was with a bit. 

What I'm getting from all the responses is that she'll never be 100% reliable. But I think few horses are (though you better believe that my next horse will have to jump through hoops before I buy!!!). I'm not willing to tie her solid to a tree and leave her there to fight it out so I appreciate the fact that no one has suggested that. I'd rather train her to tie loosely, for everyone's sake. I do long for that 100% safe, bombproof horse, but as my husband says, better to deal with the devil you know. This was partly my fault. If nothing else, this mare has taught me more about horses than 10 years of owning a perfect, bombproof horse! And I have developed a sticky seat because of her. But I will be taking extra precautions around her.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

My only issue with not training a horse to tie to a solid object is what are you going to do in trailers. Not all trailers are made for horses to travel untied. Letting her learn that she can freak out and get herself untied could just lead to trailer issues. There is nothing wrong with training her to tie loosely but she needs to be able to be hard tied too because sometimes she may have to be. By ignoring the problem and hoping it goes away you're just creating holes in her training that will still need to be fixed.

One thing I do that helps my horses is whenever I first get a new horse I literally leave them out with their halter AND lead rope on. They step on their lead rope...maybe freak the first time....but they quickly learn that if they stop and evaluate the situation they can release the pressure. Because of this training when I was a bad horse mom and let my horse step on his reins, he pulled up, realized there was pressure and immediately put his head back down to release it. Not saying this will fix your issue but it would definitely help I think.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

evilamc said:


> My only issue with not training a horse to tie to a solid object is what are you going to do in trailers.


I agree that a horse should be taught to tie properly, but I DON'T ever hard tie in a trailer. That's not to say they're loose though. My horses accept being 'tied' in there, but if something bad happens, I don't want them stuck. 

As someone already mentioned, the 'Blocker Tie Ring' is one helpful option, for teaching them to tie safely. Another similar thing is The Clip and abseiler's Figure Eights can do the same job. Or a long rope wrapped a time or few(depending on stage of training) around a rail - if the tail of the rope also goes around the end of the rope attached to the horse, that 'locks' it a bit more strongly...


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

She will be bombproof when YOU are bombproof. This is why the trainer seems to never have any real issues with a horse. It is why "crazy" horses ground tie in my barn the first day they are here. It is one reason why changing up the bit seems to change a horse's behavior for a while. The change gives US the confidence, and THAT changes the horse's behavior.... When YOU learn to read her signals, and disseminate the problem before it happens, then she will seem bombproof, and there is NO real way to find this information out about a horse beforehand. We blame all these problems on the HORSE, when the problem is US.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

We had a similar incident last week at my husbands lesson - his horse who has NEVER pulled back in the year we have owned her - startled while tied to the trailer and pulled back - ripping the tie ring off of the trailer. 

Things happen - I think this is just a fluke - you preface everything about Kodak with - she is not what I thought I bought BUT........ IMHO I think this shadows every interaction you have with her. Is it possible you startled her? Is it possible that once startled she pulled back? and that her backward force pulled enough to break the board off? 

Horses cannot see directly in front of their face - I think it is possible she caught a brief glimpse of your hand and it startled her and she pulled back. This stuff happens.

I am sorry you had another bad experience with Kodak - to me this incident is just something that happens when you handle horses and is not an indicator of something wrong with this horse.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

carshon said:


> We had a similar incident last week at my husbands lesson - his horse who has NEVER pulled back in the year we have owned her - startled while tied to the trailer and pulled back - ripping the tie ring off of the trailer.
> 
> Things happen - I think this is just a fluke - you preface everything about Kodak with - she is not what I thought I bought BUT........ IMHO I think this shadows every interaction you have with her. Is it possible you startled her? Is it possible that once startled she pulled back? and that her backward force pulled enough to break the board off?
> 
> ...


Thanks carshon - it's good to know this happens to others.

For the record, I didn't preface the thread by saying Kodak wasn't what I thought she was, I only raised that when tinyliny asked how I ended up owning a spooky horse, so I explained that I wasn't planning on buying a spooky horse! 

And yes, obviously, something startled her, and when she gets into that pulling mode, she doesn't stop unlike some horses who will test the rope, but stop pulling once they realize they're tied solid.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

greentree said:


> She will be bombproof when YOU are bombproof. This is why the trainer seems to never have any real issues with a horse. It is why "crazy" horses ground tie in my barn the first day they are here. It is one reason why changing up the bit seems to change a horse's behavior for a while. The change gives US the confidence, and THAT changes the horse's behavior.... When YOU learn to read her signals, and disseminate the problem before it happens, then she will seem bombproof, and there is NO real way to find this information out about a horse beforehand. We blame all these problems on the HORSE, when the problem is US.


I'm sorry, but she is not fine with anyone, regardless of the level of experience. The previous owner I tracked down out west had her going beautifully without even a bridle, and was able to leap off her back. Yet even she said that this mare had issues, and that while she had worked through most of them, recognized that some of her issues might never go away. 

I can assure you that I didn't reach out tentatively to brush flies away from her forehead, holding my breath and waiting for her to spook. It was a relaxed gesture I've done hundreds of time (was just out there a few minutes ago, and did it again, only she wasn't tied, and stood perfect stock still while I waved my hand at her) so I did it in full confidence that nothing would come of it. When she reacted, I tried to "disseminate the problem" by telling her to whoa, and attempting to pull the lead rope loose (I had a quick-release knot in there). However, in doing so, I nearly got my wrist broken by the board. That was my mistake and I own it. But I do not accept that if I just march out there confidently, she will never spook or pull back again. What makes this behavior unpredictable is that it doesn't usually happen. She has spooked for other riders with far more experience than me, same with pulling back. I have grown more confident in my riding in the last year, so I can now ride out her spooks and don't get as anxious when she does it. I kind of laugh at her now, which usually diffuses the situation, and we can keep on riding. But I don't think I can ever prevent her from having that momentary flash of nerves no matter how bold and confident I am. Neither can my trainer. What we can do is try to minimize what happens after.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

evilamc said:


> My only issue with not training a horse to tie to a solid object is what are you going to do in trailers.


Yes, this has occurred to me. We never go anywhere in a trailer though, but I take your point. Will bring it up with my trainer to see what she suggests.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

loosie said:


> I agree that a horse should be taught to tie properly, but I DON'T ever hard tie in a trailer. That's not to say they're loose though. My horses accept being 'tied' in there, but if something bad happens, I don't want them stuck.
> 
> As someone already mentioned, the 'Blocker Tie Ring' is one helpful option, for teaching them to tie safely. Another similar thing is The Clip and abseiler's Figure Eights can do the same job. Or a long rope wrapped a time or few(depending on stage of training) around a rail - if the tail of the rope also goes around the end of the rope attached to the horse, that 'locks' it a bit more strongly...


I used to just tie my horses in the trailer with a quick release knot, but after the time I almost had that trailer go backwards over the edge of a mountain road, stopped only by a clump of trees growing a little way down that slope, I now have ties in my trailer with quick release panic snaps.
I have never used ablocker tie ring, as I have no intention of packing one around everywhere, and I have heard that some people found that their horse never really learned to stand tied solid with them
Not to say not to use them, as they seem to work for many people and for their purpose.
I taught my weanlings to stand tied, using a body rope, after I bought a veterinary book on foal raising,. It has several very good features,, above just trying by the head.
First of all, when that horse sets back, all the strain is not on the neck muscles, and that horse learns to come ahead=fast, getting instant release when he does so. 
I have used it on confirmed halter pullers, like that mare I bought off the track, and if anything cures a halter puller, the body rope does
I also used it on Smilie=once.
I mentioned before how it was not her fault that she learned to halter pull. My son, going through a divorce, thus mind not there completely, came down to ride with me. Usually a very good horseman, he did not check the cinch , which was twisted on her off side, and did it up tight in one move.
She sat back. After that, she would threaten to set back on me, tied to the trailer at a show, being saddled, or for any other excuse. She actually did set back hard once, breaking a halter. I had her tied beside Charlie, to the trailer, hauled to ride at an indoor arena. For some reason, She decided o bite Charlie, and then sat back when I corrected her just by voice.
I thus went for the cure, and tied her with a body rope. I then even encourage a horse to set back. She came ahead fast, banging her shoulder against the stall front I had her tied to , but never offered to set back again
I should note, that my stall fronts are bolted to heavy beams, set in the ground with cement. No horse is going to pull them loose!
For me, it is important that a horse ties solid. Trail riding, they are tied up over night.
At one day shows, they are tied to the trailer. When I used to show both a jr and senior horse, i had to trust that the horse left a t the trailer, while I showed the other one, would stand tied
Yes, some horses will panic when they get that rope over their poll, or get a foot over that rope, reaching for grass, thus you make sure that you tie them with the rope high enough it ids not likely to happen
My friend who died, used to tie her horse so it could reach grass, and it drove me nuts, knowing the wreak that could happen


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> For washing, I tie them to a 10 ft long 2 x 6 *nailed* to two large posts sunk in the ground. I do this all the time.


Of course, lesson learned. I hope your wrist/hand heals up without complication.

Anything that is NAILED is not going to be strong enough to hold a 1,000+ pound horse pulling on it. If you like the hitching post idea, fine, but then use a serious post for your cross post (not a board) and get some serious large construction bolts to anchor it into the ground posts. 

With horses, always build it way stronger than you think you need - then it might be strong enough.



Acadianartist said:


> The lead rope had come off the board. I gave her a minute, then slowly walked over and picked up the end of the lead rope.


For your sake, I am very glad the lead rope came off. That could have been so much worse as others have already described.



Acadianartist said:


> I guess I have a few questions. The first one is whether a horse like this can ever change.


Most of the time, no. If they have that innate sense to freak out, you usually will not get rid of it 100%. That risk will always be there. 

With that said, Red used to bolt when I first bought him, and now I can't even remember the last time he did it. However, he never had pulled back while tied, which some may say is a different issue.



Acadianartist said:


> Maybe a trainer could help (I brought one in last summer to desensitize her and it did help). Or do I just have to be aware that it can happen anytime?


Yes and yes. Bring in a trainer if you can. Doing regular ground work with Kodak will just reinforce the thinking side of her brain. Purposefully put her into stressful situations so she can learn to look to you for guidance, rather than freaking out.

And yes, be aware it could still happen at any time.



Acadianartist said:


> And for everyone's safety, would you use a breakaway halter or is that just teaching her she can get away if she pulls back hard enough?


I would tie her solid. You don't want her to learn that she can continue breaking things. 

As others have suggested the tie blocker ring is a nice choice for horses that pull. They aren't going to get away, but they aren't going to break things either.



Acadianartist said:


> Finally, is this just the sort of thing that happens with horses, and I'm just over-reacting? Is this just something that comes with the territory when you're dealing with a 1200 lb flight animal? Or am I in over my head here?


Obviously Kodak has a known history of pulling back and freaking out, but things happen even with the calmest of horses. 

My Shotgun is so laid back. Yet about a month ago he busted off the tie ring on my trailer. I was loading up to go to a barrel race and there was a solid 35+ mph wind. I always tie the horses on opposite sides of the trailer while they eat their grain otherwise Red will finish first and steal Shotgun's. I didn't hear anything (because of the wind) but something spooked him (and this is a horse that doesn't spook....which is why there is no such thing as a horse that doesn't spook, haha). As designed, the tie ring broke off the trailer (rather than busting a hole in my trailer) and I looked over to see him walking confused about 30 feet away. 

He's only pulled back one other time in his life when we were at a horse show and some _morons_ decided to land their parachutes next to all the horse trailers. Yes, from the sky. I do not blame him for freaking out to that. He was alone at the trailer while I was warming Red up in the arena and I saw the whole thing unfold.

So yes, things just happen sometimes.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks for your comments @Beau! I feel a little better about the whole thing this morning. While it was scary, and I made mistakes, I own up to them, and learn. I won't stop tying her, but I like the idea of a blocker ring so will look into getting a couple of those. It's not like she pulled and the board snapped either. She pulled, and pulled, and pulled until I thought her nylon halter might break! I just didn't react quickly enough to release her, not wanting to reinforce the fact that she can get away. 

Yet another thing this horse came into my life to teach me I guess. Oh, and this morning she was her lovely, relaxed self. I would have happily ridden her, except I don't think it would be good for my wrist. There were no bugs, which really makes a difference with her. While I KNOW things can set her off, when she is constantly being attached by aggressive flies, she is in a permanent state of the jitters. When the flies go away, she is quieter. 

Oh, and I can't believe you had parachutes come down at a horse show!!! OMG people are idiots!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> I used to just tie my horses in the trailer with a quick release knot, but after the time I almost had that trailer go backwards over the edge of a mountain road, stopped only by a clump of trees growing a little way down that slope, I now have ties in my trailer with quick release panic snaps.
> I have never used ablocker tie ring, as I have no intention of packing one around everywhere, and I have heard that some people found that their horse never really learned to stand tied solid with them
> Not to say not to use them, as they seem to work for many people and for their purpose.
> I taught my weanlings to stand tied, using a body rope, after I bought a veterinary book on foal raising,. It has several very good features,, above just trying by the head.
> ...


Thanks @Smilie. I do always use quick release snaps in trailers, as well as breakable halters. She actually loads into a trailer perfectly, the few times I had her in one. But of course it could happen that she would pull back hard, which is why I immediately secure the butt barn and shut the door behind my horses. 

I'm not familiar with a body rope, but will find out about this method. 

As for her walking on a lead rope, I tried to leave her in the paddock with a lead rope trailing to see if she would step on it and know enough to release the pressure. I watched her for about half an hour, and she never once stepped on it, carefully placing her feet beside it, never on it. I'm assuming she has learned that somewhere along the way.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Why do horses need to be tied in the trailer?


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I hope you heal quickly. And yes, I do believe some horses come into our lives to teach us something. We just have to figure out what that 'it' is!

My horse has never been abused, but he is still very persnickety about his head. Some days I can do anything....wipe fly spray, probe his ears, mess his his mouth, nostrils, rub his forehead. Then some days he fidgets, lifts his head, swings around. Why? Hell, I still haven't figured out after 10 years. He is what he is...persnickety . So I just Ground tie, like smilie, when I need to wash his face, or mess with his head in general. Even when the vet is here I Ground tie, same with the farrier, not like the farrier is gonna mess with his head. But he is go,den about it so I Ground tie.

My point being, she is what she is and help,her through those moments.

PS. HE can stand tied to a trailer, or tree, or high line just fine. He doesn't like cross ties because they trap his head I believe. In cross ties he can't turn his head to look over his shoulder or left or right. Point is, I work within his self made boundary and don't cross tie.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

tinyliny said:


> Why do horses need to be tied in the trailer?


Other more experienced horse people can probably come up with better answers, but I suppose for me, it would be so the horse doesn't try to jump out or run out backwards from the trailer when I open the back. Maybe there are better reasons??? I know some people don't, but Harley tried to exit a trailer by scrunching his hind end under the butt bar before my driver could shut the back ramp, and I was grateful that he was tied because when he got to the end of the rope, he realized his great escape had been foiled, and just walked forward. Had he not been tied, he likely would have gotten completely under that butt bar, potentially injuring himself. I now have my daughter keep a lead rope on him in the front of the trailer (there is a breast bar and escape door of course) while I fasten the butt bar and put up the back ramp immediately. Harley is then tied to the quick release tie and my daughter gives him a couple of treats (he doesn't like the trailer so we are trying to reward him for getting in) and exits.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

sarahfromsc said:


> I hope you heal quickly. And yes, I do believe some horses come into our lives to teach us something. We just have to figure out what that 'it' is!
> 
> My horse has never been abused, but he is still very persnickety about his head. Some days I can do anything....wipe fly spray, probe his ears, mess his his mouth, nostrils, rub his forehead. Then some days he fidgets, lifts his head, swings around. Why? Hell, I still haven't figured out after 10 years. He is what he is...persnickety . So I just Ground tie, like smilie, when I need to wash his face, or mess with his head in general. Even when the vet is here I Ground tie, same with the farrier, not like the farrier is gonna mess with his head. But he is go,den about it so I Ground tie.
> 
> ...


Good to hear my mare isn't the only one. Another thing I've noticed is that if I have her in the cross-ties, she gets worked up if there are too many people around her. I do think this is because she can't turn her head to see everyone. Since my trimmer has an apprentice, they will often both be back there, and sometimes she calls me over to show me something too, and that's just too much for my mare. So now I stand by her head, and have told the trimmer to just be aware of this. She has pulled back on the cross-ties, but never hard enough to snap off the quick-release snaps. 

Harley, on the other hand, can fall asleep on the cross ties with half a dozen girls grooming him from all sides (my daughter's birthday party friends).


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I haven't read everything but it sounded like it was a fear flight thing reaction to you raising your hand that put her into escape mode and not being solid tied that caused the reaction - the solid tied was just how she happened to be when she lost control. 
If the plank hadn't come loose when she pulled back she might have stopped pulling or she might have ended up in a heap on the floor or with a very badly bruised and cut face. 
You might have had a chance to rescue that situation from injury if the plank hadn't come away and you had a quick release snap at the tie point and could then hang on to her and try to calm her down or she could have just carried on in her need to escape and gotten away from you.
If you're going to try to solid tie her then I would always do it in a safe secure area so if she does end up on the floor and you have to release her she still can't get away from where you've placed her so has to face her demons rather than flee them


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

jaydee said:


> I haven't read everything but it sounded like it was a fear flight thing reaction to you raising your hand that put her into escape mode and not being solid tied that caused the reaction - the solid tied was just how she happened to be when she lost control.
> If the plank hadn't come loose when she pulled back she might have stopped pulling or she might have ended up in a heap on the floor or with a very badly bruised and cut face.
> You might have had a chance to rescue that situation from injury if the plank hadn't come away and you had a quick release snap at the tie point and could then hang on to her and try to calm her down or she could have just carried on in her need to escape and gotten away from you.
> If you're going to try to solid tie her then I would always do it in a safe secure area so if she does end up on the floor and you have to release her she still can't get away from where you've placed her so has to face her demons rather than flee them


Yes, the initial reaction could have happened even if she hadn't been tied solid. She still occasional throws her head up in the air, but doesn't move her feet because she got her head away from whatever caused the reaction. The fact that she was tied only amplified the reaction. I say that with confidence, because I've seen this behavior lots of times. If she pulls back, and there isn't any pressure, she just stops. If there is pressure, she keeps pulling and pulling. It's a problem because I don't want her to learn to pull back all the time, but I also don't want to get hurt, or for her to hurt herself. Had I tried to calm her down by moving to her side, there is a very good chance that board would have slammed into my face, neck or shoulders, and/or would have brought me down with her in a big tangled mess that I'd rather not envision. So while I agree, I should not have tied her solid to that board, it was a good thing that I was standing on the other side of it. Trying to release a snap by her head would only have made it a lot worse, and trying to undo my quick-release knot is what caused the injury to my wrist. I'd rather loose-tie her, or tie her with something that has some give. Even my cross ties have a certain amount of give, and I think that's why she pulls back, but then settles down. 

If I'm going to train her to tie solid, I will let my trainer do it, as I feel this is something a more knowledgeable person needs to handle.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> Thanks @*Smilie* . I do always use quick release snaps in trailers, as well as breakable halters. She actually loads into a trailer perfectly, the few times I had her in one. But of course it could happen that she would pull back hard, which is why I immediately secure the butt barn and shut the door behind my horses.
> 
> ....
> 
> I now have my daughter keep a lead rope on him in the front of the trailer (there is a breast bar and escape door of course) while I fasten the butt bar and put up the back ramp immediately. Harley is then tied to the quick release tie and my daughter gives him a couple of treats (he doesn't like the trailer so we are trying to reward him for getting in) and exits.


Good, I was going to comment on your first reply so glad that you explained more. Yes, you never want to tie them BEFORE the back end is closed. I've seen instances where the horse pulled back, got a leg off the back end of the trailer, and as you can imagine quite the disaster ensued. 

I won't get into trailer loading b/c that's not what this thread is about. And I know I've said this on your other thread ... and I know your practice with trailers is limited because you don't have one, but the horse should easily stand there if you ask it to without having to race to close the back door. 



TinyLiny said:


> Thanks
> Why do horses need to be tied in the trailer?


I don't think they do UNLESS you are hauling in certain situations. For example if you have your horse shipped by a professional, they may require it. Or if you are hauling tacked several horses in a stock trailer to move cattle, then you are going to want to tie them. Etc. 

I have a 3-horse gooseneck slant and I do not tie my horses. I think it's better for their respiratory systems if they can put their head all the way down to clear their airways. But they are both experienced haulers and load/unload well.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

greentree said:


> I agree, go get your hand checked out.
> 
> Never forget that these are horses. Giant prey animals with tiny brains the size of walnuts, and for some reason we , the little predators with the large brain, have decided that we can ask them to do all of these things that go totally against their INSTINCT. Instinct trumps training every time.
> 
> If you are not able to accept that, then selling is the best thing to do.


It's not the size of a walnut. It's about 1.5 to 2 pounds. Size of a toddler's brain. 

Small for the size of the animal it directs, sure. And sometimes I think there is nothing in there but a little dust.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> Why do horses need to be tied in the trailer?



Well, I often haul two horses alone, for instance, and kinda like it, when I can untie one, take it out, tie to trailer and get second horse
I also don't like horses tap dancing in the back, esp hauling on mountain roads

When I haul just one horse, I often will place the hay and hay net behind the horse, of a cart, turned up side down
I have a stock trailer three horse angle haul-no dividers, which works fine for me. Others might find hauling loose okay, but I reserve that for foals, hauling with their dam, or horses not halter broke
Again, my preference. All my friends tie horses, as does my son. I often catch a ride with them, or they with me. I don't think any of them would be impressed if I said my horse needs to be loose!
My one friend, in fact, that I ride with, who along with her husband, has over a100 cow /calf operation, pastures spread all over the place, hauls her horse saddled, as do many ranchers, when hauling to check cattle
She is perfectly fine with me not hauling my horse saddled, but doubt she would want me to put her in with her horse, who is tied, saddled, loose!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Far as respiratory concerns, I never haul with hay nets or other food during the haul.
On along haul, I will hang ahay net at a lunch break, and also give water
There are windows right in front of where my horses are tied, that I can open to whatever degree, as they have bars over that slider window. Lots of fresh air circulation.
My friend, always wanted to hang a hay net, just to keep her horse 'amused', even if that horse had been on pasture full time, and the haul was short.
Nope, did not happen when she hauled with me!
I also reserve the right to either let a horse come out frontwards, or ask the hrose to back out. Since I haul with different people, nothing worse then no room to turn, and a horse that won't back out
I guess, my horses don't 'need' to be tied in a trailer all the time, esp when I haul by myself, but it just works very well for me, has for over 30 years, so not about to fix what is not broken!
Now that I no longer haul a stud with other horses, I guess I could leave horses loose, and have them standing there, perhaps two or three, all waiting to get out when that door opens, but I rather go in, place normal lead shank on the horse, while that horse is standing there patiently, take him out, then go back for horse number two


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> Why do horses need to be tied in the trailer?


The horse i put in my front stall (slant load) I don't tie, when I do tie it's just hooked to quick release snaps though not actually tied. I choose to hook the 2nd horse though so she can't turn around and move while I'm moving. I don't have a rear tack so the back stall is HUGE...but still not enough room that I feel comfortable with for them to move around freely in. If I'm only hauling one horse I sometimes just leave them loose though with the whole trailer open.

Just personal preference to have them snapped in so they aren't moving around as much.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Acadianartist said:


> Oh, and I can't believe you had parachutes come down at a horse show!!! OMG people are idiots!



Around here we have hot air balloons. Much bigger & they roar & breathe flames!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> Why do horses need to be tied in the trailer?


Guess it depends on the design of your trailer & how many horses you have in it, and how they get along. You definitely don't want a horse turning around & trying to jump a divider - or worse, the back tailgate - or just turning around & being loose, so that when you go to open the tailgate they might jump out onto it! Some I've seen are also badly balanced & to have the horse take most of his weight to the back can lift the front of the trailer! 

At present I have a 3 horse 'stock crate' without dividers. I actually tie 2 & leave the pony loose - one hassles the pony, the other hassles the hassler, trying to protect the pony, if I don't tie the biggies. Funny that there is plenty of room for pony to be anywhere, but when I stop, they're all lined up at the front of the trailer.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

I haven't read all the replies. Acadian, Imsire hope your hand is not broke and you're on the mend

All my horses were trained to stand in cross ties when they were in a boarding situation.

They stand tied at the horse trailer. They stand tied on a high line or to a tree.

I stopped tying them to do anything once I got them back on my own property. I just don't see the need. They can put their head back to itch or take a swipe at a fly. It's just a lot less stress and giving them that freedom has its rewards.

Streeter (RIP) and Rusty have always needed haltered with the rope thrown over the fence. Rusty will go to his stall by himself without wearing a halter. That rascal, Streeter, was always one to walk off anywhere but where he was supposed to be, so I always threw the rope over his neck and walked with him to his stall

Duke (RIP) and Joker would stand loose (no halter). When I'm done bathing them, I point to the barn, say "you're done, get in your stall" and they go 100% of the time.

That said, I still occasionally tie Rusty or Joker in the barn and leave them tied 15-20 minutes just to remind them what standing tied is all about. Sometimes I drop the drop the rope and tell them to stay and wait. Joker is a lot better at ground tying than Rusty. I just don't see the need to tie them for other things. Having them willing to listen "at liberty" takes work and patience but it's a thing of beauty when they listen

I don't like to tie a horse to do anything, for a million different/unpredictable reasons. I understand that is a strict rule at boarding barns, but it doesn't have to be a rule at home.

*Tiny, *. I always tie my horses. I don't want someone getting their head down and getting stuck, or the horse in the back roaming around. I Java a straight load, 4- horse open stock with a tack compartment u CEr the front hay feeder. They are safer being tied.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

greentree said:


> She will be bombproof when YOU are bombproof. This is why the trainer seems to never have any real issues with a horse. It is why "crazy" horses ground tie in my barn the first day they are here. It is one reason why changing up the bit seems to change a horse's behavior for a while. The change gives US the confidence, and THAT changes the horse's behavior.... When YOU learn to read her signals, and disseminate the problem before it happens, then she will seem bombproof, and there is NO real way to find this information out about a horse beforehand. We blame all these problems on the HORSE, when the problem is US.


I don't think you should blame yourself. If you don't feel like you were nervous or tentative, I doubt you were. As others have said, completely "bomb proof" horses can have their moment, and things like parachutes coming out of the sky are why I just don't leave my horses unattended and tied for more than a minute or two. 
My experience has been different. I'm a completely confident horse person - honestly I'm rarely worried about getting kicked, bitten or bucked off even with the worst actors, and I've had horses that had bad moments, and others that were always calm and stoic. Other than the occasional very fearful, timid person, blaming the handler or rider's lack of confidence will not solve many horses' issues.

Just an opinion on the tie blocker ring...my mare pulled back once, badly. The hardware on her nylon halter did finally break but she still was not released and my quick release knot got so tight that it took a very strong friend to release it for me. She hit her head very hard under the tie rack and could have fractured vertebrae, so we were lucky. 

I used the tie blocker ring for awhile, either that or just looped my lead around something without tying it. This taught my mare not to pull back. She had this residual fear that she was going to get "trapped" again, so having that give if she did pull against the object she was tied to relieved her stress and she got over the fear. She never tried pulling back and getting away, she's just not that smart. I often hard tie her now because she taught herself over a couple years that even if the tie felt snug, it was going to give and she wasn't trapped. So now even if she pulls against a hard tie she immediately stops and thinks for a second, and then calms herself down rather than panicking.

I've seen smart QHs and Mustangs that slowly feed out their line from the tie blocker and walk away. That wasn't an issue for my mare, so it might be worth a try.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks @*gottatrot* .

You'll all be happy to hear I am typing with two hands tonight, so all is well. My wrist is still sore, and a tad swollen, but I have ridiculously small wrists, so it doesn't take much to make everything feel pretty tight in there. My other arm, where I had an abrasion on the forearm, swelled up pretty good with a softball sized lump in there, but it's on the fleshy underside of the forearm, so I'm not worried.

For now, Kodak will be tied loosely. I keep re-playing the scenario in my head, and keep thinking that if I had just released her sooner, she would have just stood there. Of course ideally, she never would have been tied solid there... I won't make that mistake again. I have not been able to find a blocker ring locally. One tack store said they could order one in for 50$. Seems kind of steep so I will see what I can buy online. I appreciate your story though, and wondered what happens if they just keep on pulling.

You're right @*gottatrot* , they're all different. I remember when Harley realized he had got his rear under the butt bar, but came to the end of his rope. He literally stopped, tought about it for a second, then walked forward again. He processes things, whereas Kodak just reacts. If I give a little, she will stop reacting. 

I'm planning on doing lots of groundwork with her too, and maybe suddenly put my hand in front of her once in a while. She may need a bit of a refresher course. I can't ride her tomorrow because I have work commitments and will only ride her very early, when there are not too many flies, but I do hope to ride her again Thursday. 

I do appreciate everyone's support and comments. We are moving forward now, with additional precautions, and taking this as a valuable lesson, but with confidence that I can still enjoy my mare.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Well, it's interesting that we had this little diversion into discussing how or if to tie horses in trailers because when I went to the salon to get my hair done today, my old friend/hair sylist , who is also a horse woman, told me how her friend had lead her mare into the trailer, snapped her halter ring into the quick release tie hanging from the trailer wall, and then was backing up to get around the divider to swing it into place, when some sudden commotion right outside the trailer spooked the mare, who pulled back in a panic. 

The tie broke from the wall, and the cord flew back and bopped the mare in the face, sending her in an utter panic trying to back out of the trailer, pushing the woman along with her, such that the woman fell off the back end of the trailer, and the mare fell ON her! 

Fortunately, the hrose landed with it's belly across her thighs, and while bruised, the woman is not severely injured, as she could have been.

one of the first things I said was that I had learned never to tie a hrose until AFTER you have done up either the butt bar or the divider, depending on trailer type and location of horse. THEN you tie. Just as you UNTIE horse before opening divider/butt bar. 

She said she'd been doing the latter one, for unloading, but had always tied the horse before closing the divider/buttbar.
This made me doubt my memory on teh correct protocol. And, since I've only loaded a hrose into a trailer maybe 5 or 6 times without help, I am FAR from any kind of expert. It still scares me.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

tinyliny said:


> Well, it's interesting that we had this little diversion into discussing how or if to tie horses in trailers because when I went to the salon to get my hair done today, my old friend/hair sylist , who is also a horse woman, told me how her friend had lead her mare into the trailer, snapped her halter ring into the quick release tie hanging from the trailer wall, and then was backing up to get around the divider to swing it into place, when some sudden commotion right outside the trailer spooked the mare, who pulled back in a panic.
> 
> The tie broke from the wall, and the cord flew back and bopped the mare in the face, sending her in an utter panic trying to back out of the trailer, pushing the woman along with her, such that the woman fell off the back end of the trailer, and the mare fell ON her!
> 
> ...


Interesting... I mean, sorry for that poor woman, but here's my problem: if you untie the horse BEFORE you open the back and remove the butt bar, and they decide to run backwards, aren't you REALLY putting yourself at risk? While I let my daughter just hold the lead rope while I close the butt bar on Harley, I'm confident that he won't panic. Getting out of the trailer, he may not panic, but may be in a big hurry to exit. No way someone will be able to hold a horse with a lead rope. That said, I can see how a trailer tie letting go is a dangerous situation. 

Trailer tying experts, care to weigh in?


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

It is instinctive to go to a horse's head if it is pulling back instead of going to the rear end (to the side) and using anything to hand drive it forward. 

Good advice given.


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

I've taken on two abuse cases over a long span of owning horses and was taught early (by them!) that they can learn to trust you and sometimes other people but only about 95-99% of the time. 

At some point, that "flashback" will happen (and most of the time we look around and can't figure out what triggered it!) and you learn to become relaxed but automatically aware of your horse's body language at all times. You can often see these "freak outs" coming early enough to back off or untie them before an incident happens.

This incident is fresh in your mind especially because you have a painful, daily reminder of it. As time goes on, you will accept what happened, and after all _this kind of thing happens with horses that don't have a "panic trigger" occasionally_. That doesn't mean you have to be tense and hyper aware whenever you are around her. You'll simply keep one eye peeled for those signs of panic and I'm sure that from now on, you'll probably think first before reaching up to swish a fly away. Try not to let yourself worry it to death and don't assume that now this is going to happen every time.

One of my geldings was made horribly head shy by abuse which I witnessed before I bought him. After I'd owned him about 3 months he started to realize that I wasn't going to be doing that to him. Anytime he started to panic even a little bit, I would stop, take a deep breath, talk to him and wait , wait, wait for him to calm down. Eventually he became easy to halter and bridle but now and then, I see that panic start to come on, sometimes it happens in the crossties or just simply tied up. I slowly walk up, unhook him, take him for a short walk (to "change the subject") and go back to what we were doing.

I guess my point is that the damage that abusers do to horses never goes away 100% but you can get the reactions down to about 1-4% if you are patient and learn to read the face and body language. And don't forget that even "normal" horses do this occasionally!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Foxhunter said:


> It is instinctive to go to a horse's head if it is pulling back instead of going to the rear end (to the side) and using anything to hand drive it forward.
> 
> Good advice given.


Yes, I agree that going up behind her might have convinced her to stop pulling back.... or I might have ended up with a flying 2 x 6 in the head in this case. So it seems prevention was the only solution here. Given the precariousness of the situation, getting behind her could have been worse. And in fact, since (according to my massage therapist) she appears to have gone over backwards more then once, even without the board, standing behind her, or even to the side, could also have led to disaster for me. Perhaps walking away completely - that is, far enough to be safe - might have helped. But the best advice is not to let this happen again.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Acadianartist;10090905 said:


> if you untie the horse BEFORE you open the back and remove the butt bar, and they decide to run backwards, aren't you REALLY putting yourself at risk? While I let my daughter just hold the lead rope while I close the butt bar on Harley, I'm confident that he won't panic. Getting out of the trailer, he may not panic, but may be in a big hurry to exit. No way someone will be able to hold a horse with a lead rope. That said, I can see how a trailer tie letting go is a dangerous situation.
> 
> Trailer tying experts, care to weigh in?


You train them to stand until YOU say, "Back" or give them another cue to unload. Granted, while training and if you have one who already has the rushing out backwards habit, it can be problematic. I have had those horses in the past and my 'solution' was to have someone stand outside the head window and hold the lead. You can't hold the horse if he rushes backwards but if he rushes backwards and you use his momentum against him by holding the lead and letting him pull against the trailer, he's not going anywhere. Picture the person standing outside, holding the lead rope and the horse tries to rush back, the person holding the lead lets the horse pull taught against the window frame and now has leverage. Pretty soon the horse will quit and just stand. That's of course, 99% of the time, there's always that 1% that will go until they break the halter or snap on the lead but those are not 'typical' results. After a time or 2 of pulling against the trailer, the horse decides it's not productive and quits. If you don't have a 2nd person to help, you can also tie off to the tie ring on the outside of the head window but I trust those less, they can break on occasion. 

Had I followed my own advice when loading Twoey, passed her lead rope out the window and backed out without fooling around and petting her, I wouldn't have gotten trampled and wouldn't have knots on my head and a sore hand/wrist.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

What I did with a horse that tried to rush out is worked on teaching the word "wait" and then "come". When they tried to scoot out backwards I tapped their butt with the whip to send them back forward, away from my pressure. I did that until they stood calmly waiting...and then I told them to come. In my slant load I do allow them to turn around, but in a straight load I would gently pull the tail as a "Its ok to back now"...My way may be wrong but its worked well for me and doesnt involve a pulling match. I also have to do most of what I do alone, and that was the best way I found to do it. If I did have 2 people I would of probably tried @Dreamcatcher Arabians way.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Acadianartist said:


> Interesting... I mean, sorry for that poor woman, but here's my problem: if you untie the horse BEFORE you open the back and remove the butt bar, and they decide to run backwards, aren't you REALLY putting yourself at risk? While I let my daughter just hold the lead rope while I close the butt bar on Harley, I'm confident that he won't panic. Getting out of the trailer, he may not panic, but may be in a big hurry to exit. No way someone will be able to hold a horse with a lead rope. That said, I can see how a trailer tie letting go is a dangerous situation.
> 
> Trailer tying experts, care to weigh in?



I think the reason you untie them first , them open the divider or butt bar is that while they may come out in a hurry, it isn't the total panicked , unbalanced scrabble with broken equipment flying that can occur if they feel the confinement of the halter pulling tight when they are really wanting out. That can flip them from the place where they WILL slow down if you speK to them, or tap their butt, to where there is no changing their mind at all.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

ALWAYS untie before opening the bar, chain, divider or tailgate. I saw a horse pull a 4-horse gooseneck hooked to a 1-ton truck back 15 feet when he backed out before he was untied. In doing so, he degloved all the skin off his forelegs from the knees down. This was a broke, well-seasoned rope horse who had been hauled without incident for years, and had no history of loading/unloading issues or pulling back. 

Also tie if you have dividers. Horses that turn around to look behind them can find themselves caught and unable to get their heads turned back, then they panic. If you haul a horse loose, it must be in an open trailer with no dividers. We were behind a trailer at a stop light last week and the horse turned his head to look at something behind him, then couldn't turn back and proceeded to fall down and take the trailer apart in six lanes of traffic until the divider broke and he freed himself. By the time the owners got the trailer pulled over to see what had happened, he was standing calmly but had some nasty cuts and certainly wasn't going to the horse show they'd had planned for him. Again, this was a horse shown nearly every weekend. 

I love the Blocker Tie ring for horses that pull back. Put a long yacht-line lead on them and when they pull back then stop, lead them back forward and start again. For a confirmed puller, you might need 25 or 30 feet of rope or longer. As the horse improves, you can get by with an 8' line. Watch the videos on it at the Blocker site or Clinton Anderson's site. You can make your own blocker-style tie ring with an old snaffle bit cut in half, or a double-ended bolt snap and a ring. Google 'DIY blocker tie ring' and look through the results and images. 

I would also teach a horse that tends to panic with restraint to hobble. Don't just slap them on her and walk away-- work with her on giving to pressure around her legs with a soft rope, first, then hobble her in a safe, open area with soft footing and keep her on a long leadline at first so you can shut her down if she panics, but most horses hop around a few times, then stand. It's a mental thing. Learning that they can't run really helps some of the abused and spooky ones realize that they won't be hurt, and that they can trust. As an added bonus, if your mare would get her legs caught in something, she's less likely to injure herself if she's hobble broke and they can come in handy if you're trail riding and have to stop with nothing to tie to.


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## Luce73 (Dec 7, 2012)

At my barn we tie to loops of baling twine tied to solid objects like stall doors/trees/fences. horses can set back for no good reason at any time, and this way the twine will break, realse quickly (quicker than a breakaway halter?) and will usually keep them from panicking more. My totally chilled out (on the ground) schoolmaster freaked out when I tied him by his stall door the other day where there is a bit of overhang of the roof. he put his head up because something drew his attention, and his ears touched the roof. I saw it happen and he went into a full panic, setting back and slipping and sliding on the concrete aisle. luckily i had tied him to some baling twine, and it snapped as soon as he pulled back, so he hadnt really 'sat' down yet (which might have caused him to fly over backwards) and ust took 2-3 steps to gain his balance, then looked at me and the roof like WHAT WAS THAT, but stood still to let me catch him.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

You don't want the twine to break. Far more horses are injured when they set back then the tie/halter/rope breaks than are injured if nothing breaks. If you've ever watched a horse sit back and the halter break or slip off and the horse flip over backward, hit his head on the floor, and die, you would never tie with something breakable again. I won't even use snaps on lead ropes. I use strong rope halters with tied-on yacht line leads that will not break. If he gets in a wreck and falls down and can't get up, cut the rope or halter, but he's a lot more likely to be hurt when something breaks than if nothing breaks. Horses that pull back and break things turn into confirmed pullers, too. The only reason for using a breakaway would be a leather halter on a horse that must wear a halter during turnout (for instance, to attach a grazing muzzle). Nylon halters tend to break where the holes are near the buckle. Also make sure your halter fits. For some reason, a lot of English barns use halters that are far too big, and those really aren't safe for tying. You want the throat of the halter to rest snugly behind the jowls of the horse to keep the halter from coming off.

As for horses that learn to walk off with a blocker tie ring, that's why you use it with supervision, and you set it to the tighter settings that the horse can't pull through as easily once he's learned not to pull back. Anytime a horse is tied and out of direct supervision, he should be tied to something he can't break, with something he can't break.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> You train them to stand until YOU say, "Back" or give them another cue to unload. Granted, while training and if you have one who already has the rushing out backwards habit, it can be problematic. I have had those horses in the past and my 'solution' was to have someone stand outside the head window and hold the lead. You can't hold the horse if he rushes backwards but if he rushes backwards and you use his momentum against him by holding the lead and letting him pull against the trailer, he's not going anywhere. Picture the person standing outside, holding the lead rope and the horse tries to rush back, the person holding the lead lets the horse pull taught against the window frame and now has leverage. Pretty soon the horse will quit and just stand. That's of course, 99% of the time, there's always that 1% that will go until they break the halter or snap on the lead but those are not 'typical' results. After a time or 2 of pulling against the trailer, the horse decides it's not productive and quits. If you don't have a 2nd person to help, you can also tie off to the tie ring on the outside of the head window but I trust those less, they can break on occasion.


Not disagreeing with this advice, however, I'm willing to bet Kodak would be in that 1% who would actually pull back until she injured herself. Teaching her to stand on voice command would work 99% of the time, but it's that 1% that scares me.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> Not disagreeing with this advice, however, I'm willing to bet Kodak would be in that 1% who would actually pull back until she injured herself. Teaching her to stand on voice command would work 99% of the time, but it's that 1% that scares me.


These are living, breathing, sentient beings with minds, wills and emotions of their own. You will never be able to control any one of them 100% of the time.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> Well, it's interesting that we had this little diversion into discussing how or if to tie horses in trailers because when I went to the salon to get my hair done today, my old friend/hair sylist , who is also a horse woman, told me how her friend had lead her mare into the trailer, snapped her halter ring into the quick release tie hanging from the trailer wall, and then was backing up to get around the divider to swing it into place, when some sudden commotion right outside the trailer spooked the mare, who pulled back in a panic.
> 
> The tie broke from the wall, and the cord flew back and bopped the mare in the face, sending her in an utter panic trying to back out of the trailer, pushing the woman along with her, such that the woman fell off the back end of the trailer, and the mare fell ON her!
> 
> ...



I hate dividers and butt bars, but realize they are needed in some trailer designs, like a straight load two horse. That to me, makes a horse way more to feel trapped then tying ever does
I purposely bought a three horse angle haul with no dividers

Touching on the quick release knot that Trottin mentioned. There is a right way and wrong way to tie one. My vet, who was also a long time horseman, taught me the right way, so that it DOES NOT tighten so it can't be released if the horse sits back I posted a link to that once, so the info is out there
I also agree that for many people, having ahrose learn top stand tied solid, is something they can compromise on> For me it is not
I tie horses up over night, on some trail rides. Not going to hold them all night!
No, balloons do not fall out of the sky during the night, but last year we had aherd of feral horses go thundering through our camp , about two in the morning. Don't think our horses would still have been there, with that lead just looped around a rail!
If you are just going to ride out somewhere that is heavily populated, stop for lunch, then sure, you can get by with just ground tying,, holding your horse, or just fooling the horse that he is actually tied , by looping that lead shank around a rail.
I sure am not about to haul horses into mountains, with those horses turning , jostling for position in the back-loose!. Those roads can be challenging enough !


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> Not disagreeing with this advice, however, I'm willing to bet Kodak would be in that 1% who would actually pull back until she injured herself. Teaching her to stand on voice command would work 99% of the time, but it's that 1% that scares me.


 I would try to cure her BEFORE tying in a trailer., or just live with not tying her!

First, she has two issues, with the first being some left over head shyness, esp when sudden movement occurs around her head. 
I would work on that, so she gets desensitized, stops reacting to sudden movement around her head
I absolutely would then tie her with a body rope in a safe way and place.
I then actually would encourage her to try setting back, so she tries when I am there,. I have never met ahrose that will set back more then a few times. They will actually , when encouraged to set back, maybe rock back a bit, but they will resist putting pressure on that body rope
I do not advise using it, if you have never done so, nor know how to rig it safely, but just food for though, if you really want to break that habit , using a safe as possible method


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> I would try to cure her BEFORE tying in a trailer., or just live with not tying her!
> 
> First, she has two issues, with the first being some left over head shyness, esp when sudden movement occurs around her head.
> I would work on that, so she gets desensitized, stops reacting to sudden movement around her head
> ...


Have not needed to trailer her anywhere, nor do I expect to. But when we bought her, she loaded like a dream. She does tend to rush when unloading though. But honestly, not worth it for me to take on that battle for a horse that isn't going to ride in a trailer much, or ever. And yes, I hear you all saying "but what if there's an emergency and she needs to go to the vet?" - we'll cross that bridge when we get there. But my vet lives 2 doors down, and another vet is a family friend who would drive out to our place in the middle of the night if need be. And as you all know, I don't own a trailer, so it seems pointless to do trailer training for a day, then not ever load her again for years. In all the years I owned horses as a teenager, not one of them ever saw the inside of a trailer. We just didn't go anywhere. And that's fine by me - we have loads of trails right in my back yard. I don't feel ready to do overnight rides, or even group trail rides with Kodak. Maybe I never will. I'm quite happy just puttering around little trails in my area, quite frankly.

As to the method you describe with the body rope, I will talk it over with my trainer who has dealt with many anxious, spooky horses, in fact, she is making this a bit of a specialty of hers. I do not feel it would be fair to Kodak for me to attempt something that I'm not experienced in doing. There is too much risk involved. I do know enough to know what I don't know...


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

I don't tie mine at all to bathe them.....

Most of the time I just drop the lead rope and start hosing them off....

It wasn't always this way, but when I started, as I held the lead rope.. I'd just let them go in a circle, as I started with their back legs down low.....they'd do circles for a few minutes and then realize they couldn't outrun the hose....and stop and let me wash them....

Now, Usually they stand there and munch grass while they're getting their bath....occasionally I have to step on the lead rope if the grass seem better in another spot....but generally, if the hose reaches I let them graze and move a bit....got to say, it's always better when we can do it the easy way and I think over the years they've figured that out too...

As far as the trailer....if you don't have one they don't need to load......still if you get the chance to ask the horse to load...why not take advantage of the opportunity?


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## charrorider (Sep 23, 2012)

I have had Arabian horses, infamous for spooking, for 35 years. A lot of people are going to say that I"m crazy, or don't know what I'm doing. I don't tie my horses in a way that if they panic and pull back they can't break free. This is what happens if something causes them to panic: they pull back, break loose, run for 50' and stop. That's it. No harm done as far as I'm concerned. Put yourself in the place of a horse. You're trying to get away because something has triggered your flight instinct and you find out you're tied. Panic city. I went to see one of my Arabian at a rescue shelter a couple of years ago. He was tied up and as nervous as can be. I asked the shelter director if I could untie him. She looked at me strangely and said to go ahead. Within a minute and a half, he was a different horse. Doing all the paperwork to adopt Amal was just a formality after that. "Complete meltdown for no reason." Maybe no obvious reason to you. But what about your mare? BTW, I don't tie my horses inside the trailer, either.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

charrorider said:


> I have had Arabian horses, infamous for spooking, for 35 years. A lot of people are going to say that I"m crazy, or don't know what I'm doing. I don't tie my horses in a way that if they panic and pull back they can't break free. This is what happens if something causes them to panic: they pull back, break loose, run for 50' and stop. That's it. No harm done as far as I'm concerned. Put yourself in the place of a horse. You're trying to get away because something has triggered your flight instinct and you find out you're tied. Panic city. I went to see one of my Arabian at a rescue shelter a couple of years ago. He was tied up and as nervous as can be. I asked the shelter director if I could untie him. She looked at me strangely and said to go ahead. Within a minute and a half, he was a different horse. Doing all the paperwork to adopt Amal was just a formality after that. "Complete meltdown for no reason." Maybe no obvious reason to you. But what about your mare? BTW, I don't tie my horses inside the trailer, either.


So, you must not camp far from home, with the hrose just running a little circle and then staying round. Try that, if you are camped in some 20 miles or more. Long walk in the morning!
Like I said, some people might not need to teach a hrose to accept standing tied solid, so that is fine, but that does not mean one size fits all!
I also don' t accept that certain breeds just can't be expected to learn to tie solid. I just rode with two very nice Arabians last week. They were trailered there tied, and next week, I am picking up the owner and one of those Arabians,in my trailer, to haul out west. I asked the owner, if her horse was fine, tied beside mine, without a divider, and she said, 'sure'
Yes, I know, if you set up in some base camp, beside your truck and trailer, you can either put your horses in the trailer over night, or drag along panels, but that does not work for riding in wilderness, and camping, packed in somewhere
I am not saying every one should  tie their horse, as certainly, you can adapt expectations as to what you do with them. At the same time, you can't say no horse at any time, needs to be tied in a trailer, or learn to accept standing tied
I hold ahorse, when first teaching that horse to be bathed.Once the hrose is okay with that, I tie the horse. I don't like following a horse with the hose, as he wanders on the lawn to graze. I untie all horses for bathing the face
If you go to a show venue, and bath your horse, he needs to tie in those wash racks


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

charrorider said:


> I have had Arabian horses, infamous for spooking, for 35 years. A lot of people are going to say that I"m crazy, or don't know what I'm doing. I don't tie my horses in a way that if they panic and pull back they can't break free. This is what happens if something causes them to panic: they pull back, break loose, run for 50' and stop. That's it. No harm done as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> 
> Sure, there is harm done. Every time ahorse breaks loose, he learns that if he does not wish to stand tied, he can break free. It then takes less and less for that horse to have an excuse to do so. That is how you create a halter puller in the first place!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^That is why I hate the practice of tying horses to balers twine. Mine get taught to 'tie' safely with methods/equipment I described, for the first bit with me on the end of the rope, for full control. When they're pretty solid with that in different situations, only then I will tie them solid. I will only tie them to balers twine if I must - if there's only breakable & unsafe areas to tie to - and they have already proven they are confident tied solid without pulling.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

loosie said:


> ^That is why I hate the practice of tying horses to balers twine. Mine get taught to 'tie' safely with methods/equipment I described, for the first bit with me on the end of the rope, for full control. When they're pretty solid with that in different situations, only then I will tie them solid. I will only tie them to balers twine if I must - if there's only breakable & unsafe areas to tie to - and they have already proven they are confident tied solid without pulling.


And to be clear, this mare DOES tie solid 99% of the time. I have only seen her do this a handful of times since getting her, and this is the first time she actually got loose (other times, she would pull back, then settle down as I talked to her). Sometimes I tie loosely, but I do tie her solid fairly often without an issue. This is the problem with anxious, spooky horses. They are unpredictable, and can be set off unexpectedly by things they have seen before. Most of the time, she's perfectly fine. But there is that odd time, and this was one, where she panics, pulls back, and panics more. It's a downward spiral at that point. And we did spend 6 weeks with a trainer desensitizing her, but occasionally, she still reacts, though far less so now than when she first came. 

I think in the end, this is the sort of horse that, like many, will never be 100% bombproof, so I just have to be aware, take precautions, and help her not feel trapped. It doesn't mean I'll never tie her solid, but I am looking to get a blocker ring (they don't sell them locally, will have to order online) because I think that if she had a little release, she would calm down.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, do what works and keeps you both safe.
However, I do not think it is the temperament, but rather past experience, that has her pulling back at times.
Too many people tie horses solid, when they are not ready to accept that, are not truly 100% on giving to pressure.
Your mare also came to you head shy, and that also is due to past handling.
Yes, horses are prey/flight animals, and we do modify the basic response based 
on that fact, when we both ride and handle horses.
We expect horses to ride out alone, to accept us on their back, and to modify their spook behavior tot he point they don't automatically follow that spook up with a bolt, as they do in the wild, to put distance between themselves and that object, thus evaluate from a safe distance.
As in any vise, speaking training vise, and not based on a horse being a horse, once ahorse learns an improper action, they none the less associate that action with the reward, whether that reward was intentional or not. There is no clean slate left, and why one tries to prevent a horse from ever learning them in the first place.
First time a horse pulls back and breaks free, is due to some true fear factor, but the horse remembers that, result of that action,.
The unfortunate part of that, even if the horse is okay 99% of the time, you have an 'un predictable component, never knowing when that horse might act on that 1 %, or, indeed if that 1% will grow.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Blocker tie rings. We use them in the trailer also.


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## Luce73 (Dec 7, 2012)

I agree that tying to twine is probably not the best solution if you have a horse that is prone to setting back and needs to learn to tie properly. My barn is mostly a show barn, with well behaved horses who are constantly handled and tied (even spend time tied outside while their stalls are cleaned/aired out, and at shows theyre just tied to trees/trailers etc). They WILL stand tied properly, with just baling twine to keep them in place. The thing is that if they do panic, they can get away and will calm down faster. We've had one incident with a lesson horse being tied to a tree directly, without the twine. A loud firework bomb went off across the arena, and he spooked backwards, not even much, just a reaction to the sound. But he pulled that branch off the tree, and ended up running around with a branch hanging from his lead, spooking him more and more. Luckily it ended well and he only had a few scrapes when he was caught. 

Another horse was tied solid to a metal ring in the wall, wearing a fluffy padded transport halter. A broom fell over along the wall next to her and made a lot of noise. She set back hard, and ended up snapping the buckle of the halter. They are still treating her for fluid and sensitivity on her poll 3 months later. She is just now getting over being headshy, and freaking out over any pressure on her poll from the bridle while riding, even though the vet declared her ok some time ago. 

Once a horse ties well and reliably and wont test the tie, i dont see the problem with using baling twine. I think its a good insurance for those unpredictable situations we cant control that can and will happen. I'd much rather my horse gets loose than him getting so worked up he hurts himself or worse. 

Of course these horses are always either on the property where they live or at other showgrounds, and there are always people around. I know its not the same as hitching them at night while camping.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

^ both of those problems are due to tying a horse to an unsafe object or with a breakable halter. I'd rather have a horse stay where I put him rather than loose at a show or ride where he can end up in traffic, cause injury to someone else, or himself. A horse can spook without setting back, and a horse properly trained to tie will not set back even when spooked. Like I said before, I've seen a lot more injuries to horses caused by them sitting back and breaking the tie or halter than from a horse that sits back and nothing breaks.


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## Luce73 (Dec 7, 2012)

SilverMaple said:


> ^ both of those problems are due to tying a horse to an unsafe object or with a breakable halter. I'd rather have a horse stay where I put him rather than loose at a show or ride where he can end up in traffic, cause injury to someone else, or himself. A horse can spook without setting back, and a horse properly trained to tie will not set back even when spooked. Like I said before, I've seen a lot more injuries to horses caused by them sitting back and breaking the tie or halter than from a horse that sits back and nothing breaks.


The first situation was caused by the horse being tied to something unsafe, but the second one was NOT a breakaway halter (the actual metal buckle broke in half), and the injury to the horse was caused by the full weight of the horse hanging on her poll due to the halter not breaking sooner. I see your point but I feel like if whatever they are tied to breaks soon enough (i.e. baling twine) before they can get their whole weight into that backwards motion, they are unlikely to flip over/injure themselves as they will not be unbalanced by the sudden 'snap' of the tie once they are leaning their weight into it. 

That said, i think there are pros and cons to both sides. I think the most dangerous thing is a 'middle ground' where it will snap, but only once the horse is hanging against it - opening up the possibility of flipping over-, or where the object is not secured enough and will come loose and 'chase' the horse.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Luce73 said:


> That said, i think there are pros and cons to both sides. I think the most dangerous thing is a 'middle ground' where it will snap, but only once the horse is hanging against it - opening up the possibility of flipping over-, or where the object is not secured enough and will come loose and 'chase' the horse.


EXACTLY! The board coming loose and falling on top of my downed horse was a frightening thing to watch. I would rather she broke a halter, a piece of baling twine, or give herself a little slack so she can calm down than see that again. Of course that was a mistake, and I have learned not to do that again. But now that she has done it, there will always be a risk that it happens again. She pulled back HARD on that nylon halter. So she learned that if an object doesn't give right away, she can pull back harder and it will eventually give. Or she will get herself seriously injured. Neither scenario is a good one so I'd rather avoid her setting back in the future. Unless I can find a qualified trainer to cure her of this.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Exactly why I go for the cure, and even did so on my show horse at the time=Smilie, when she learned to pull back, due to that incident I posted about
After that time, she went through a 'silly phase', like threatening to sit back when I just pinned show numbers on her, tied to my trailer, something she had never done before.
Those rings, used at some barns to tie horses to, are not truly suitable, as they will hold okay, as long as a horse never really tests them
While tying with twine, works, if it really does not matter if a horse breaks free, would you tie your horse in that manner, packed in 7 hours, sleeping in a tent over night, depending on your horse still being there in the morning?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

practicing new way to post pictures, since photo bucket got greedy!

A good hitching rail


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)




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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> While tying with twine, works, if it really does not matter if a horse breaks free, would you tie your horse in that manner, packed in 7 hours, sleeping in a tent over night, depending on your horse still being there in the morning?


No, of course not. But then I won't be taking my horse on overnight camping trips.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> No, of course not. But then I won't be taking my horse on overnight camping trips.



I was not responding to you directly, and sorry if that appeared to be the case,but rather to all those that seem to think tying with twine, allowing a horse to learn he can break free, is okay, for all circumstances and horses
Do what works for your comfort level
It is also not necessary for all horses to perform flying lead changes, on request, but is, if you are riding a reiner, LOL!
I, and some others, need a horse that ties solid. Others, for what they do, can work around that skill, and often have formulated their stance, by never really having a horse solid on giving to pressure, before trying them, have tied horses in correctly, that resulted in wreaks, or bought horses who already had holes.
I have absolutely no problem with anyone not tying a horse, so that the ability to break loose is a given de fault,but do not accept that horses should not be ideallly taught to stand tied

I will give an example where that ability to break free can cause a wreak.
When Smilie was along two year old, I took her to a clinic, just for exposure

One person there, had a horse in that segment of the clinic I was in, and pasture mate to that horse, was left saddled and tied to the trailer
It was a hot day, so the arena door had been left open. The horse, tied at the trailer, broke free, and came charging among the horses in that clinic, stirrups flapping. A few people got bucked off as a result. I was lucky that I got Smilie's head checked around, and she responded to 'whoa', while all that was going on


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

greentree said:


> She will be bombproof when YOU are bombproof. This is why the trainer seems to never have any real issues with a horse. It is why "crazy" horses ground tie in my barn the first day they are here. It is one reason why changing up the bit seems to change a horse's behavior for a while. The change gives US the confidence, and THAT changes the horse's behavior.... When YOU learn to read her signals, and disseminate the problem before it happens, then she will seem bombproof, and there is NO real way to find this information out about a horse beforehand. We blame all these problems on the HORSE, when the problem is US.


This this this. As I have mentioned before my project mare is just like Kodak. I can do absolutely anything with her and she is great, calm and happy. She could absolutely pack around beginners. Would I ever sell her to a beginner? No. She will buck and be a spooky mess under saddle. She will be very stressed out on the ground and rear and spook and pull away from you. These aren't assumptions either I have seen it plenty during the time I worked with her before owning her (and then promptly removing her from the situation).

This isn't a spooky horse (by my definition), this is a horse with a very good mind who simply needs a certain type of training and handling. I ride her bareback on the buckle, she has never bucked with me. She follows me like a puppy at liberty very responsive and respectful. Heck I'd let her loose to graze if the BO was OK with it. ...I have no doubt if I rehomed her all her issues would flare back up.

Keep in mind not only are these things stressful for you but they are horrible stressful for Kodak, think about if this is the best situation for HER too. I know you are phenonemal about level of care and have already made a lot of progress with her but you've got sooo far to go and some things are more than just good feed and a nice stall. Just food for thought. I consider my mare a rescue and she had all her basic needs met but she gave herself ulcers and sent people to the hospital.

I seem to be the only one but I'm not seeing a tying issue at all. She had ONE incident prompted by a spook. I think the blocker ring is a great option for her but would try not to overthink the tying. Overthinking is also a big problem with this type of horse. You need to be bombproof too, as said. I'm not seeing any "my horse doesn't know how to tie"?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Acadianartist said:


> This is the problem with anxious, spooky horses. They are unpredictable, and can be set off unexpectedly by things they have seen before.


Yep, of course there will always be 'one offs' with horses, and there are of course those horses who are always high strung, but there is usually a REASON for them being overly 'anxious & spooky' which can be addressed. And of course, 'unpredicatable & unexpectedly' can be just due to lack of understanding & ability to read bodylanguage etc, but I find even high strung horses to be quite predictable, *unless* there's something wrong that you haven't got to the bottom of.

Eg. a few years ago, my horses were frightened to see me appear, and unusually skittish. Then I found golf balls in the paddock & on the naturestrip, remains of a camp fire & a pile of Jim Beam cans! I've also seen many(including one of my own) horses who were 'unpredictably spooky' change drastically & chill out after being put on magnesium supps, or having the excessive potassium in their diets reduced & balanced out. And then I've seen ill tempered or skittish horses change drastically after chiro or cranio sacral work too... All worth considering for your girl.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Yogiwick said:


> This this this. As I have mentioned before my project mare is just like Kodak. I can do absolutely anything with her and she is great, calm and happy. She could absolutely pack around beginners. Would I ever sell her to a beginner? No. She will buck and be a spooky mess under saddle. She will be very stressed out on the ground and rear and spook and pull away from you. These aren't assumptions either I have seen it plenty during the time I worked with her before owning her (and then promptly removing her from the situation).
> 
> This isn't a spooky horse (by my definition), this is a horse with a very good mind who simply needs a certain type of training and handling. I ride her bareback on the buckle, she has never bucked with me. She follows me like a puppy at liberty very responsive and respectful. Heck I'd let her loose to graze if the BO was OK with it. ...I have no doubt if I rehomed her all her issues would flare back up.
> 
> ...


Hey, feel free to come work on my girl anytime! Seriously. Look, I don't make myself out to be more than I am. But I do think I offer more than just "good feed and a nice stall". I did bring in a trainer to work with her and while I don't consider myself any sort of trainer, did grow up with horses, and have gone further for this mare than most newbies would have. Do I have far to go? Sure! But what are her options here? To be sold as a spooky mare? Maybe as a cowhorse in the making? Should I risk someone deciding she just really needs a good beating? 

She could do a lot worse than me. Yes, I totally agree, I may be overthinking this. She ties solid most of the time. But this was a frightening incident that could have ended very badly. I could have never brought it up. Which is probably what I would have done as a timid 14 year old. But heck, as a 46 year old, I can put myself out there to be judged. I accept that I made a mistake. Hopefully others who read this can learn from my mistake. 

I love how people say you just need to be confident and then the horse will be too. Please, come here and ride her to show me how it's done. Because so far, I've had to experts ride her, AND have talked to former owners, and they have ALL had the same issues I have. So yeah, I get it, I'm an amateur. But oddly, pros have not done much better on her. What options am I left with? Well, she has a "nice stall and good feed" as you say. She trusts me. She nuzzles me, and asks me to scratch her face, and her neck. I have become "her person". She respects me too. I think she could do worse than my poor, pathetic self as an owner.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

loosie said:


> Yep, of course there will always be 'one offs' with horses, and there are of course those horses who are always high strung, but there is usually a REASON for them being overly 'anxious & spooky' which can be addressed. And of course, 'unpredicatable & unexpectedly' can be just due to lack of understanding & ability to read bodylanguage etc, but I find even high strung horses to be quite predictable, *unless* there's something wrong that you haven't got to the bottom of.
> 
> Eg. a few years ago, my horses were frightened to see me appear, and unusually skittish. Then I found golf balls in the paddock & on the naturestrip, remains of a camp fire & a pile of Jim Beam cans! I've also seen many(including one of my own) horses who were 'unpredictably spooky' change drastically & chill out after being put on magnesium supps, or having the excessive potassium in their diets reduced & balanced out. And then I've seen ill tempered or skittish horses change drastically after chiro or cranio sacral work too... All worth considering for your girl.


Done, and done. She has had several chiro adjustments when I first got her. Her neck was completely out of alignment, especially on her right side, which remains her bad side. My chiro said that according to the scar tissue, she had to have gone over backwards, and probably more than once. 

She is already on magnesium. She has a well-balanced diet which I worked out with my equine nutritionist. She initially really craved minerals, and licked up all the salt I put out on a daily basis. She is a little more levelled off now, but still gets a good balance of minerals. I don't feed processed pellets, but rather timothy hay cubes as a vehicle for her supplements.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Oh, and I would never, ever put a beginner on Kodak. Just nope. My daughter has ridden her, because she is experienced, and has dealt with difficult horses. But a beginner. No. Kodak doesn't spook often, but she is not reliable enough for a beginner, and probably never will be, even in the most controlled circumstances.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I do think you have done a very good job with Kodiac, but also have to agree that reactive horses are partly that way, because from experience, we expect them to be that way
I should know, having Charlie come into my life, at this point and time, when I do at times dwell on what could happen, if I came off at my age, with double knee replacements. At those times, she can be very reactive.
When I get my mental s;;t'together, ride like I used to, she is a completely different horse, riding anywhere I ask her to
If I could bottle that aura, feed it to myself, so I project that body language at all times, believe me, I would! Either that, or find that fountain of youth, LOL!
Far as trainers having ridden your horse, that is not going to tell much, until she is in a program with them for at least a month. Just getting on and riding her, will only tell where those holes are. you can only ride the training that is there!
MY son has a rescue horse, that was on his way to the meat market. The horse has very good cowhorse breeding, from good minded stock
Unfortunately, he was 'started by his idiot owner, with a long shanked bit and spurs
Sold to a new owner, he bucked that person off hard, and thus sealed his fate, until my son intervened and bought him
My son put him in a snaffle, and at first, when he would get on that horse, Appy would close his eyes and buck blind He now rides everywhere, calmly and has not offered to buck in the last few years.
However, my son will never sell him, as he knows the hrose,and is afraid he might revert,thus hurt someone.


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## Crazy4horses2 (Jul 12, 2017)

I know I'm most likely not as horse experienced as most of the previous posters on here but I do have an idea that might help your situation with her pulling back, I've seen it work in person with a horse that had severe pull back issues to the point where he almost broke his owners finger while she was tying him up to the horse trailer to get brushed down and tacked up. 

Anyway it's called the Sierra (I think I spelled that right) No Pull horse halter. It worked wonders for him, when it was on him correctly... They are a tad expensive but will help when trying to encourage her to not pull away. I hope this helped


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Crazy4horses2 said:


> I know I'm most likely not as horse experienced as most of the previous posters on here but I do have an idea that might help your situation with her pulling back, I've seen it work in person with a horse that had severe pull back issues to the point where he almost broke his owners finger while she was tying him up to the horse trailer to get brushed down and tacked up.
> 
> Anyway it's called the Sierra (I think I spelled that right) No Pull horse halter. It worked wonders for him, when it was on him correctly... They are a tad expensive but will help when trying to encourage her to not pull away. I hope this helped


Here is the link 

Sierra Horse Halter


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> but here's my problem: if you untie the horse BEFORE you open the back and remove the butt bar, and they decide to run backwards, aren't you REALLY putting yourself at risk?


#1 you need to TRAIN the horse to load and unload. So you train them to unload when you say, and not rush on or off. We've talked about this extensively already in your other thread.

But re-read your own words. What's going to happen when you leave that horse tied anyway? They're going to hit the end of that leadrope and start panicking and possibly drop a hind hoof of the back end of the trailer and then you have an utter disaster and a torn up leg.

NEVER open that back door unless the horse is untied. 

Really though, you're doing fine with Kodak. Accidents happen to all of us and we all learn lessons. Just move forward.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

walkinthewalk said:


> Here is the link
> 
> Sierra Horse Halter


\
Think I will stick to the body rope,LOL!
Have not needed it in years, as the horses I have left are solid, am no longer halter breaking weanings to tie.
Just another tool, gathering dust, along with my draw reins and running martingales, that were all used short term, for specific problems


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Sometimes a horse will set back no matter how well trained it is to tying solid because there's no way to desensitize them to everything. 

Flash is the gelding my hubby rides and he's a pretty unflappable horse, used to tying solid and going camping. One day we'd just started setting up camp and here comes a kid on a bicycle pulling another kid on a skateboard. Flash set back, figured out he wasn't going anywhere after a minute and stood back up. Hasn't had a set back episode since.

Point is, sometimes doo doo happens and it's a waste of time to worry about it happening again. Not saying that there may not be some unforeseen thing that may happen again in the future nor saying that it's not something to worry about if it happens continuously but for right now you learned a lesson on where not to tie and to give yourself a break.


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## Crazy4horses2 (Jul 12, 2017)

I've seen that done too never tried it though wanted to many times with my aunts horse but she thought it was too exteme and didn't want her precous hurt.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

I raised my Arab/Saddlebred from birth until I laid him to rest with cancer at age 29.

He was about six months when grandad came up to our farm to see/check on him one day. Good thing because grandad found the colt laying on his back in the cow manger, legs up in the air. How THEE Samhill the colt manage to even get into the cow manger is a mystery to this day.

I said I that because I believe him being in that position and unable to move at his will, was the reason he could. It to,wrote tight space (2-horse trailers) and why I had so much trouble teaching him to stand tied to a tree the trailer, etc, etc.

Whenever I had to hard tie him, I never left him alone; I was always within his sight of him and more important, running distance. He learned early on what "Sonny whoa, I'm comin'' to ya" meant. As soon as he heard me speak, he would ease up on the rope and wait for me. He was never hung up on anything but Inwould untie him, let him walk a circle, then tie him back up and he would be fine.

Maybe he had me trained, I don't know and I don't care - that was what worked for him ------ for 29 years. Teaching him the right and proper way was not an issue because I had no intention of ever letting him go down the road --- so I taught him that he didn't need to set back MY WAY and it worked for him ----- that's what is important, what works for each horse without hanging them 

This poor thread, like so many others, is going onandonandon, ad nauseum. IMHO, it has long last the point of having any value to the OP which is why I have stayed out of it until now.

The OP already has Harley to where he will come to her in a moment of panic in his new pasture and not being able to find his way home (the old cutie

Enough "suggestions" have been offered (maybe even mine with my Arab/Saddlebred) that I'm sure something simple (the KISS principle) and non-toxic will be figured out.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Like I said, a tool to use, for some, while others do not require it.(accepting being tied solid )
I think the OP has worked through, decided as to what works for her and her horses, and for what they do.
I also had quite a few hroses from birth, and was there for their final moment
Some I taught to leg picket, as at that time, we took extended trips into the back country, where it is impossible to pack in food for horses.
I also used to just have an acreage at first, so taught horses to leg picket to extend grazing ability
I no longer do extended trips from base camp, have more pasture then I know what to do with, thus admit our present hroses were never taught to picket or to be hobbled, for that matter.
Works for what I do now, but would not have, in the past.
Thus my statement, if you don't NEED a horse that accepts being tied solid, then that is perfectly okay. On the other hand, being tied solid, is the ONLY method by which a horse should ever be left by himself. Not ground tying, not cross ties
Actually, having horses int he past, learn leg restraint,, is a tool that helped to prevent that horse form tearing himself up, if he ever got a foot in a fence, and my horse;s don;t have that basic now, so I am very particular on hotwires instead
You use what works for you and your horses, and for what you do.
I won't have a halter puller, but that is me.
Far as the OP, I think her problem is more on her horse learning to accept random motion, esp around her head, and she does not need to be tied, to have her freak out, as that is the biggest issue, JMO


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

walkinthewalk said:


> This poor thread, like so many others, is going onandonandon, ad nauseum. IMHO, it has long last the point of having any value to the OP which is why I have stayed out of it until now.
> 
> The OP already has Harley to where he will come to her in a moment of panic in his new pasture and not being able to find his way home (the old cutie
> 
> Enough "suggestions" have been offered (maybe even mine with my Arab/Saddlebred) that I'm sure something simple (the KISS principle) and non-toxic will be figured out.


Hahaha... indeed walk. HF threads tend to do that... however, I did get some reassurance from reading all the stories (upside down in a cow manger???) and I know all suggestions were offered with sincerity so I do appreciate them. There are lots of great suggestions here, but in the end, I do think that around horses, manure happens. It doesn't make Kodak a bad horse, or me a bad owner. I made a mistake, have learned from it, and am soldiering on to continue this never-ending process of learning how to be a good horseperson. 

Tomorrow, off to a show with Harley! Crossing my fingers that all my daughter's hard work will shine through.


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