# Appy and a brown roan make ???



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Appears she is roaning, but I don't see obvious varnish marks, so could be the roan gene from her dam, versus the Appaloosa roan gene, associated with the LLP complex


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## LaneyandElena (Dec 15, 2015)

Wouldn't her head be solid then? The roaning is most prominent on her head


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Hrm.... I really think she's grey. Do you have pics of the parents? Ages (approximately)

I don't think she's LP (Appy) and regular roan will not roan out the head. Here's an extreme example to show the boundaries:









Do you have baby pics?


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## LaneyandElena (Dec 15, 2015)

Baby picture (she's about 30 minutes old): 









Baby picture with mom (mom is 5):









Mom in November:









I think this is dad (I did not breed them) he's a leopard with buckskin-ish spots:


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

i would say not gray seeing the parents. unless the appy is not the sire. It would be some weird bronzing thing that the leopard complex is doing. leopard is a weird gene and rarely dose what its supposed to.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, that Appy looks alot like the stud I bred to, by transported semen, thinking that he was not carrying the greying gene, as he looked just like a Leopard in the App Journal
I found out after the fact, that the greying gene can work at different rates on Appaloosas, far as the base coat color and any spots
I got suspicious before Charlie was born, seeing quite a few of Awarded ,s offspring in the Journal, appeared to be greying
I thus e-mailed the stallion owner, and asked if his stud perhaps carried the greying gene.
His answer, 'well, some of his offspring are grey"
I should have checked the colors in his pedigree, instead of just his picture as a Leopard. His sire, who I looked up, the AQHA stallion, Zippo Award is grey!

Charlie was born loud colored, but greyed to white within two years
Those spots on that stud, appear to be fading.
I will post a picture of Awarded, who, by now,no doubt is completely white!




This is a three year old filly, that was born solid chestnut with a a blanket, and who inherited the Appaloosa roaning, which is distinct from the roan gene, being associated with the leopard complex


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

KigerQueen said:


> i would say not gray seeing the parents. unless the appy is not the sire. It would be some weird bronzing thing that the leopard complex is doing. leopard is a weird gene and rarely dose what its supposed to.


You can see those spots fading on that stud, so would not be surprised if he had the greying gene.
Note Awarded , in my other post. The grey gene came from him, as there is so grey in the dam, who we also raised, and who produced many loud colored foals, with our stud
Many of Awarded's winning foals, in the App Journal, that I saw, after the fact, were greying, and his sire, is a grey AQHA
Would not suspect it, just looking at that pic, and I was also duped!


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## LaneyandElena (Dec 15, 2015)

This is the stud, he's at least ten years old:








So I don't think he's greying, he just has light coloured spots.

This is his sire (my baby's paternal grandsire):








I have no idea what the sire's dam looked like but I'm pretty sure she was solid and not grey.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Best thing is to wait and see! We have a 23 year old appy mare out of Three Top Again, who was a solid chestnut app with a blanket, her dam was the exact same color. Neither parent had a grey/varnish hair on them, even when they hit senior status. Our mare was born solid chestnut, and now at 23 is completely grey with black spots over her rump. So I'm thinking the varnish was carried as a recessive gene, since her grand sire was a chestnut varnish roan. My two year old app paint cross was sired by a sabino, and his dam is a chestnut varnish roan. He's liver with a loud white blanket. (He's in my picture) In the year and a half I've had him only his mane changed, and it turned silver. The Appaloosa genes are crazy! To me it's a waiting game to see what color he will turn by the time he's five.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

OK well mother is obviously her mother  Definitely a brown roan.

The stud may have grey, I don't think we can be positive, and we also don't know for a fact he's the father.

Obviously she would need one parent to be grey.

She's not classic roan.

So if not grey (which I'm still leaning towards) my guess would be she was born black has the LP gene with minimal characteristics but the LP is creating her bronzing and is also creating varnish roan (I agree with Smilie it doesn't look like she has the tradition varnish markings, but can you tell 100% this early on? Smilie, could it just be blending and not distinct yet?)

She's too cute  And I love mom. Is the dad registered? Do you know his name?

My theory is she is grey and dad is either not dad or is grey.

Does she have any grey in her tail?


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## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

I am guessing that she is roaning out. My appaloosa mare's foals all started out solid and then turned to roan as they aged. She carried two copies of the LP and was herself a few spot roan. My current mare started out pretty solid and has also roaned out over time.


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## LaneyandElena (Dec 15, 2015)

I know for certain (well 99%) that the second picture I posted of the stud is the father of my filly, the first one I stole off of facebook and lots of their horses look similar  He may be greying out, I've never met the people who bred her or seen the stud in person.

I called the people back when Ekko was still tiny (she's nearing 14 hands now!) and they said the stud was appy/quarter horse cross. He's only 15 hands but fairly stocky. So not registered and they've gelded him.

I love mom, she's just gorgeous and super sweet. 

Ekko's tail is a dark brown last I checked. She very well might be grey if her dad is hiding a grey gene somewhere in all that appy.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

LaneyandElena said:


> I called the people back when Ekko was still tiny (she's nearing 14 hands now!) and they said the stud was appy/quarter horse cross. He's only 15 hands but fairly stocky. So not registered and they've gelded him.


If he is a cross between quarter horse and Appy, he could have been registered as Appy so long as both parents were registered with their respective registries. ApHC has approved crosses to AQHA, jockey club and AHA registered purebreds. So long as a registered appy is bred to a registered quarter horse, thoroughbred or Arabian, the resulting foal can be registered as an Appy. 

It just kinds irks me when someone explains that the horse is a cross and can't be registered when in fact the cross is completely acceptable and can be registered. Kinda like when I talked to one of my aunts a few years back when I was helping her sell a young horse who she considered to a 1/4 of 4 different breeds, the sire was explained to me as "half quarter horse, half paint".. Ugh, no. The sire was 100% paint as a quarter horse crossed with a paint makes a paint :-/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LaneyandElena (Dec 15, 2015)

I wasn't aware if it could or couldn't be registered but I personally doubt he is. They are outfitters breeding "mountain horses." I'm doubtful that any of their horses are registered because of the crosses that they are breeding. My mare, the mom, comes from a feral herd of "mountain horses" that they are using in their crosses.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

LaneyandElena said:


> I wasn't aware if it could or couldn't be registered but I personally doubt he is. They are outfitters breeding "mountain horses." I'm doubtful that any of their horses are registered because of the crosses that they are breeding. My mare, the mom, comes from a feral herd of "mountain horses" that they are using in their crosses.


Yes I was simply asking to see if I could cyber stalk him and figure out more about his genetics, but guess not 

Do agree with what's been said though!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

LaneyandElena said:


> This is the stud, he's at least ten years old:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That picture does show his spots better, and I can now see that they are light chestnut, and not fading black spots, as it looks like in that winter pic
Carmen, my main trail horse, has the App roaning. Her dam was a few spot, and she was born chestnut, with a blanket. Unless you knew her background, that she had no greying, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference at times. 

Here is how a varnish roan is distinguished from a true roan


Varnish vs true roan[edit]
The varnish roan is not a true roan, it is actually one of the leopard complex coat patterns associated with Appaloosa, Knabstrupper, Noriker horse and related breeds. Varnish roans are not true roans and can be distinguished from true roans by the following:

Leopard complex characteristics. Varnish roans, like all horses with the Lp gene, have mottled skin, striped hooves, and white sclera.
Varnish roans change color seasonally, often becoming less spotted as they age, and often having their coats become lighter when a winter coat grows in, though they do not progressively lighten in the manner of a gray horse.
Bony areas retain their pigment longer. These areas include the bridge of the nose and cheekbones, ears, points of shoulder and stifle, as well as the legs.
Appaloosa characteristic parentage.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

All Appaloosas are Varnish roans, with modifiers at work

The appaloosa color pattern is as complicated as it is beautiful. In this case the coloration is caused not by any one gene, but by an entire gene complex. The individual genes within this "leopard complex" can produce the widely varying appaloosa patternings we see.

All of the individual genes within the leopard complex are not understood, but due to the efforts of the Appaloosa Project we are beginning to understand a few. For example, we know that all appaloosa patterns can be turned off together. This key gene to appaloosa expression is referred to as "LP" for "leopard complex" and will, by itself, result in a varnish roan pattern. Two more genes, called PATN1 and PATN2 are responsible for the popular leopard and blanket spotting patterns. Without varnish roan, neither of these spotting patterns will show up, and with two varnish roan alleles, they will display as solid white without the characteristic spots.

Recognized appaloosa patterns include: leopard, blanket, fewspot, snowcap, varnish, and frost.



LP - Leopard Complex / Varnish Roan

The LP gene was named "leopard complex" when appaloosa genetics were still a complete mystery. It was known that this gene was required for appaloosa spotting, but not what other specifics determined how much or what type of spotting a leopard would get. We now know that this gene is responsible for the varnish roan pattern, which has no spotting in and of itself. The name was already established, however, so it still remains that way.

Varnish roan appaloosas have white hairs mixed into their base coat. Unlike a true roan, however, their white is patchy. It tends to concentrate on the rump and back, and leaves the legs dark. Small dark areas form on the hips and the bones of the face. The amount of roaning varies from horse to horse and increases with age. The speed of roaning can also vary greatly.

PATN1 - Pattern type 1

Leopard and fewspot patterns are both the result of PATN1 with different numbers of varnish alleles. One varnish allele with PATN1 gives a leopard appaloosa, while two varnish alleles with PATN1 give a fewspot appaloosa.

PATN2 - Pattern type 2

Blanket and snowcap appaloosas are both the result of PATN2 with different numbers of varnish alleles. One varnish allele with PATN2 gives a blanket appaloosa, while two varnish alleles with PATN2 give a snowcap appaloosa.

In addition to white patterning, all Appaloosas will have: pink mottling on otherwise black skin, striped hooves, and a visible sclera (white of the eye).

Previous: The KIT Gene - Home - Jump to Complete Genetics


From this link:
http://www.jenniferhoffman.net/horse/appaloosa.html


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## LaneyandElena (Dec 15, 2015)

That's quite interesting! I'll update you guys in a couple of years when she decides to reveal her true colours haha


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