# I walk alone here in dangerous territory.



## ridesapaintedpony (Apr 14, 2009)

I read through that thread and the hatred for the equestrian took me by surprise. I guess I never realized it.

Anyway, a couple of people got it over there. If we cannot get along and learn to share, then neither of us will be on the trails. People are complaining about both bikers and horses. If we don't come together and fight those who are complaining, then both of us are going to find ourselves banned.

Some of the reasoning over there was a bit over the top. "don't ride until you have control of your animal." We are riding prey animals. Even the best trained will have a meltdown once in awhile. They are animals, not machines. If I wanted to ride a machine, I'd ride a bike (which I do sometimes too). :wink:

To me, it makes sense that whoever is riding into a blind corner make noise to let anyone, whether or not it's a hiker, biker or equestrian know they were coming. A biker could be flying around a corner and right into someone who is walking the trail. Same with equestrians. I would never ride at a full gallop where I couldn't see what was coming at me. 

It wouldn't kill either of us (no pun intended), to be careful and slow down on blind corners. Unfortunately, it could kill both of us if we don't.

I, for one, appreciate you coming over here. If we don't stop arguing with each other, someone else is going to step in and take the trails away from both of us.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

bikes don't spook. I think it's pretty obvious here who should get the right of way for safety's sake.


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## drafteventer (Jul 6, 2009)

roro said:


> bikes don't spook. I think it's pretty obvious here who should get the right of way for safety's sake.


My thoughts exactly...


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

I read through that page, and wow! What a lot of uneducated rudeness!I understand where they are coming from, but many (most) seem very uneducated about horses.

Most trail horses won't spook at bikes, they have seen and been around bikes for years. they WILL spook if I bike comes flying at them unexpectedly (as would I). As for blind corners, going slow and making noise has nothing to do with horses. I would expect a rider, hiker, biker, whoever to be polite and safe enough to slow down and make a warning. What if you run into a hiker who didn't hear you coming? I know I'd be just as angry at a another rider who didn't give warning/slow as I would a biker, or even a jogger

Horses get the right of way because they are large. It is not too hard for a biker or hiker to step off to the side, but on a wooded or narrow trail, it would be very difficult to get a bunch of horses off to side. Plus, for a spooky horse it's better to keep them moving then to stand.

As for the poop, how exactly are we suppossed to clean it up? We can't exactly carry a pitchfork around. Plus, a tall horse is not the easiest to get on after getting off, especially if there are no stumps or rocks around (and you can't always tell when a horse is pooping). Horse poop is pretty natural though, it's much cleaner then dog. cat, or human poop


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

You can't do things out in nature and complain about poop. Especially horse poop.


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## lovemyponies (Jul 26, 2008)

We are blessed to live next door to a 1500 acre park with nice riding trails. Years ago the trails were fair game for anyone. We had bikes, atvs, etc. It was hell to come around a corner and have an atv barrelling down the path, but at least you could hear it coming unlike a bike.

However they basically change the rules and bikes can only be ridden on the roads, not the trails and atvs are banned. Now its just hikers and horses and its lovely. 

I guess I never knew how lucky we are to have a place like this.

However those darn fishermen casthing with their huge lunge whips !!


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## lovemyponies (Jul 26, 2008)

Spastic_Dove said:


> You can't do things out in nature and complain about poop. Especially horse poop.


 
if you are really roughing it obviously even people have to leave some some where


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Haha, True! Poop is quite natural!


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I just finished up reading and was surprised. Our backwoods horseman pair up with the bikers around here to maintain trails. That was one of the more rude threads I have read in awhile. Horses don't belong on trails? They belong there just as much as hikers, bicyclists or ATV riders.


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## horseluver2435 (May 27, 2009)

I read through it too, and felt deeply insulted. Luckily, our barn has it's own trails, so we don't deal with bike riders, which means I've never dealt with bike riders either, but, agreeing with everyone else, some of their arguements were just plain silly. 
'They teach horses to ignore gunshots and cannonballs, police horses also don't spook all the time. Sure they can be trained to be calmer around such events, it just takes work. Are the equestrians going to do what is required to not present a hazard to other trail users, or are they just going to take the lazy route?'

^Okay, mister tough biker, let's see you train a horse to be calm around gunshots and cannonballs, and i'll check in to see how you do. *rolls eyes*

'oh come on. if there is one thing that is simple about this discussion, that should be a no-brainer, it is that they should clean up after them and that it can be done with minimal effort.'
^Uh-huh. I'll have you ride with a pitchfork, ride along, dismount, clean up the manure, then somehow manage to mount up again, while holding a pitchfork.

I could list more, but I'm not gonna push it any farther. I think this sorta proves that all of us need to have a more open additude toward riding on shared trails.


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## horseluver2435 (May 27, 2009)

^_^ Though kudos and karma to you for braving our forums!


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

My horse doesnt spook at most things, but if something pops out of a corner, he will still jump and so will I. 

Also, im not riding around with a pitchfork and hoping off everytime my horse craps. I HAVE earned the right to ride on those trails and you can bike around them. I do think I'm entitled to use those trails just like everyone else who uses them.


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## Thelonebiker (Aug 15, 2009)

Spastic_Dove said:


> My horse doesnt spook at most things, but if something pops out of a corner, he will still jump and so will I.
> 
> Also, im not riding around with a pitchfork and hoping off everytime my horse craps. I HAVE earned the right to ride on those trails and you can bike around them. I do think I'm entitled to use those trails just like everyone else who uses them.


 
You see, again with the biased-ness we (at least I) understand it's not practical to get off every time the horse drops a few cookies on the trail, Try and take things from our perspective, as I am trying to teach others on my forum to do so, Yes it's natural, and yes it does dissipate so chances are you probably need not make the effort to go back through and clean it up.. I think one of the main concerns the biking community has however is the trail maintainence, and who is usually blamed for it. You know the kind of dirt your steeds can kick up on a soggy day, just as we know the impact of the ruts we can make on a day similar. What I think many (NOT ALL THIS IS NOT TO SAY SOME DON"T) feel is that the mountain biking community is out there more often than the horse community, cleaning up the damage of both.

So, would poop bags be nice, probably, but it doesn't mean we are insisting everyone to go get one and holster it on. What I think would really do both parties some good is to schedual (actually post it on the trailheads) co-opted trail maintainence, this would shut the mountain biking whiners up about the horse community not "helping" and would give a neutral ground upon which bonds and friendship betwixt us both could grow. 

Now being a realist, chances are none of this will take effect, but if one thing can get through (to both parties not just you guys) is to go into every situation with an open mind and attempt to slip your riding boots into our clipless pedals and we'll attempt to slip our shoes into your stirrups...


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

See, around here like I said, the bikers, hikers, and equestrians seem to be on the same side and we all maintain the trails so that we can keep our trails. I certainly see where you are coming from, but I think that it's something that comes with using public trails...you have to deal with other people and their ... remains just like we have to look out for and "deal" with you.

But I'm apparently naiive as I've never had a problem getting along with everyone else on the trials. (Except motorcylces but thats a whole 'nother rant).

EDIT: I realize my last post probably came off more ****y than I meant. My intention was to say that we just have to deal with one another. Horses poop, bicyclists leave ruts and can scare horses sometime but we BOTH love the trails and we need to work together to make sure we keep them.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

I would like to point out....

For the accusations that equestrians are rude, we aren't the ones bashing bicyclists


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## Bronco Hollow (Jul 21, 2009)

If we equestrians do not work together with all users of the forest we will ALL lose the right to enjoy it. At lot of the national forests are already limiting access. I have been working with forestry in open and closed round table discussions for two years now with representatives of users - OHV, bicyclist, hikers. Forestry may not close the trail but they will close off the parking or access. This may not affect your riding trails today, but it has already started in the Sierra National Forest and elsewhere. 

Horses can alert very subtly to hearing things way before we can hear them. If I feel an alert, I don't know what it is - boar, bear, cougar, hiker, llama w/backpack... but I'm prepared to take action. As equestrians we need to be always be prepared to ride aware and defensively. 

We have encountered ugly minded users out there, but have found most all shared users of the trails have been by far and away courteous including the bicyclist. They don't want to come around a blind corner to meet a horse and rider, a bear, dead fall or a crazy gun waving person any more than you do.

Damage to trails, I think motorized tires do more damage than cyclist tires. Personally I think trail maintenance is done by the few and enjoyed by the many. Horse poop? A lot of national forest is free range... so what about all them cows pooping on the trails? Diapers for the wild critters too? - lol


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

A question; Where are trail maintenance days advertised? How to MTB's know when they are on and when to turn up? Just curious because if it isn't a public notification then horse owners will have no ideas that organised trail work is going on, we generally don't frequent MTB gatherings and I guess you know why.

The situation is very different where I live. There aren't any designated horse/MTB trails around me... Just trails. Anyone and anything can use them. Just a note, but these trails don't have hoof ruts in them; Maybe our ground is different or more hardy than yours?

The problem with spooking is that riding a bike around a horse in a controlled environment is very different to when a horse is on a trail, which in itself is a new situation with a lot of stimuli, a bike added in (whule by itself may not bother the horse) may be the proverbial straw that broke the camels back. Simply a 'brain overload'; It does happen. Also, the only true way to get your horse to become a calm, quiet trail horse and relaxed around other trail users is to get it out and about and to realise that they won't hurt it. It is inevitable that while it is learning spooks will occur. It is impossible to replicate this situation as some people on that forum suggested.

The poo issue? I can see both sides. It's not practical for us; Would it be a pleasurable ride for a MTB'er if they had to regularly break momentum to stop and do something similar to picking up poo? It's the same for us. Often trails are valuable cardio workouts for our horses, conditioning work making them fit for a coming event or purpose. But I can also see how piles of poop would be annoying to MTB'ers. *Shrugs* I don't see a solution to that one.

If I see bikers, I normally don't expect them to stop. Most bikers around me don't know trail rules and don't know horses. It is simply safer for me to look out for myself and not count on any respect from riders. I ALWAYS treat other trail users with respect. The only time I don't If I have already politely asked the kids on bikes NOT to follow on my 'horsies' heels with their bikes, and they ignore me. That is ignorantly endagering me, my horse, and themselves. Then I get mad :]


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

First of all, I find most of the mountain bikers I run into very courtious. If they see me, they stop and get off the side of the trail. If the trail is wide enough, I usually call ahead and tell them it's ok to keep coming, as my horses have seen enough bikers to not be scared of them.

Like all horses, mine will spook at the unseen biker. The one that flies around the corner unexpected. It's just part of trail riding and we deal with it. No different than a wild turkey exploding from cover or a deer busting through the trees.

As far as trail maintenance. {I think one of the main concerns the biking community has however is the trail maintainence}

There is a section of one of my favorite trails that divides. The hikers and bikers go over a bridge and the horses go down through the creek. This section of trail is maybe 1 mile in length. You CAN visable see a difference in the trail used only by the horses. The common trail leading up to and the bike/Hiker trail after the dividing point is about 24"-30" wide. The horse trail is barely 12" wide. So something other than horses is causing the trail used by bikes to be worn off in a much wider area.

When trails get muddy, people should not use them. But I do see long tire ruts where bikers rode in the mud. The water then runs down hill in the tire ruts, washing them out and making them worse. Yes horse make holes in muddy trails also. But it doesn't form a continuos rut that the water follows. The best solution here is for everyone to respect the trails and stay off them when they are easily damaged.

Which brings up manure. Horse manure is recycled grass. It's not a big deal. It breaks down quickly, adds mulch or fiber to the trail to help prevent errosion. It doesn't stink like Dog or human crap. It doesn't stick to your shoes like Dog crap. It doesn't contain pathogens. In utah, most of our water flows downhill off the mountains. These water sheds are protected, because it IS our drinking water. I often see restriction about taking dogs into these areas because of the risk of contaminating the water supply. I never see any restrictions about horses in these areas. I'm not a scientist, but it appears that the bacteria that horse manure contains is safer than the pathogens that dog crap contains. Same process with gardening. Many people and and myself included often put horse or cow manure in my garden, Nobody ever recommends putting dog crap in your garden. There is a difference.

Manure from livestock ( horse/cows/sheep) and wildlife ( deer/elk/moose) are just a fact of life on the mountain. It's not a big deal. I think bikers get too concerned over it. From an uneducated point of view, they seem to consider it the same as the Dog crap. It's just not the same.

From a horse persons view. I don't think we should clean out our trailers at the trail head. I think it's very incourtious to leave a pile of horse manure/straw/woodshavings etc at the parking area. If my horses crap on the black top at the trail head, I carry a manure fork in the trailer and fling the road apples off into the brush. These areas of concentrated use, should be kept clean. 

My biggest complaint about bikers has been the parking. On my favorite trail, I used to pull up, park and ride. I'd see a few other horses along the trail. Maybe a hiker. In the last 5 years. the bikers have taken over that trail. There is never a spot to park a truck/trailer. The bikers have been successful at closing off access to half of the trails to horses. ( the management of the area still allows horses on the dirt roads, but has closed them to using the trails) The trails are there because, horses rode them years and years before bikes became popular. In fact the Great Western Trail was developed as a trade route for original Native Indians of the Great Basin. It was traveled by indian tribes long before white man.


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## Thelonebiker (Aug 15, 2009)

I do agree that the poo issue is that of a "hopeless" one even if you had a foldable shovel, getting on and off a steed of that magnatude is daunting (I've tried... Mom's attempt to get me into show jumping) many times Horseback riders are small in stature anyway (less for them to hold up) so yes this topic is in a difficult position..

With that being said, and answering the above question, I truly think that all of these feelings of resentment would be eliminated by having co-opted trail work days, which many times are posted at the parking lot, trail map, ect. And if there are no such things and you feel as though your in an area of feelings of disdain for one another, all the more reason for YOU (take that in a neutral sense, not trying to put the burden solely on you guys.) to schedual a date (trust me, seeing a biker, rider trail maintainence day would tickle us pink). 

In my life experience, I have always been quick to judge, wrong as it may be it is part of my nature. However I am quick to find out that in spending a little time with those I've pre-judged, I am 95% of the time incorrect in my allegations.. And if I hold any inclinations of the human race, and these two parties in particular, I feel many would soon find out much the same.


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## dynamite. (Jun 21, 2008)

Wow. I never new there was such conflict between bikers and riders.


That Jayem guy is just miserable! How does he know that riders aren't riding bikes around their horses? Our horses see bikers almost daily, but when they zoom by so fast, how do they know that a bike is coming?


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## dashygirl (Nov 21, 2006)

Bronco Hollow said:


> If we equestrians do not work together with all users of the forest we will ALL lose the right to enjoy it. At lot of the national forests are already limiting access.
> 
> Horses can alert very subtly to hearing things way before we can hear them. If I feel an alert, I don't know what it is - boar, bear, cougar, hiker, llama w/backpack... but I'm prepared to take action. As equestrians we need to be always be prepared to ride aware and defensively.
> 
> ...


Very well said! We all do need to get along, this is crucial to all of our future enjoyment. 
Personally, I have never ran across a rude bicyclist, so I cannot share the passion that is bubbling in this thread.
As far as poop goes, when I am on the trails and my horse decides to fertilize the land, I dismount and push it off of the trail with my boot. It's just something I've been taught since the beginning. I suppose if I was a hiker or biker and I didn't appreciate horses and all that comes with them I'd be a little upset to run into poop too. But at the same time, that's what comes with riding/hiking in the middle of a national park. It's NATURE.


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## Qtswede (Apr 16, 2009)

I won't dignify most of the drivel on that page. Ignorance and attitude at it's worst. Most of the bikers, and even dirtbikers & ATV riders know enough to respect a horse coming through. The horses know to be cautious of them as well. As far as the poop issue - grow up. That's life. Trails are not sterile places. Trail maintenence? well, most trail riding clubs, and saddle clubs hold their own trail maintenence days seperate from the 'official' ones so they are staggered more through the season. Just because they don't pull up in a truck and trailer for MAINTENENCE days doesn't mean they're all automatically bikers. Geez.


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## Catalyst (Aug 12, 2008)

I saw a couple times that a few posters mentioned they had never seen an equestrian out helping maintain trails. That certainly must be just where they live, as I am 15 minutes from a PA state park and for YEARS there was a strictly volunteer team of riders who went out every weekend to help maintain the trails for everyone. Once the state took over, they didn't do it as frequently, but the trails look fantastic for everyone. 

I have never had an issue with bikers, and my horse doesn't have an issue with bikers, hikers, etc. The biggest "issue" I have come across is that I've had a few bikers ride too closely behind Nakai's rear, and he tends to scoot forward if that happens. When I've asked them to just let me know that they are there, they have often said they didn't want to say anything loudly for fear of spooking my horse. Better communication from both parties would easily solve that issue! 

Also, bikers are to yield to both equestrians and hikers. Their bikes can't spook, and despite what has been said on their forum, even the most bomb-proof horse can spook if the right situation occurs. Also, wouldn't it be easier for a biker to move themselves out of the way rather than ask a 1,000 lb animal to move up or down (or around) and potentially damage more trail area, especially if it's on a slope?

As for horse manure, it is unrealistic to ask riders to carry around massive bags with them, particularly while out in state parks where there are no trash cans in the interior of the parks, or to ask them to carry pitchforks with them. Riding with a crupper isn't ideal either when trail riding. Horse manure fertilizers and it also deteriorates fast.


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## Catalyst (Aug 12, 2008)

TheLoneBiker - kudos to you for trying to gap the bridge of understanding in your forum and reaching out to horse forums.  I think a majority of us equestrians had no idea some bikers feel the way they do about horses and riders in general.


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## dashygirl (Nov 21, 2006)

Catalyst said:


> TheLoneBiker - kudos to you for trying to gap the bridge of understanding in your forum and reaching out to horse forums.  I think a majority of us equestrians had no idea some bikers feel the way they do about horses and riders in general.


Agreed.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

What gets me is at the Conyers HORSE park, bikers practically have taken over it. Would bikes like it if horses took over a BIKE park? Probably not.

Poop is, like most have said, biodegradable. Maybe even the fastest breaking-down poop I've ever seen. It's life. Dogs poop on trails too, and it stinks more but nobody makes a fuss over it..

I appreciate hearing feedback from a biker. Quite helpful.

I couldn't stand to read the rest of the OP's link. It made me very angry to see such a bunch of uncaring people. I have to, for _their_ sake, know that they do not know anything about horses. So it's kind of a catch 22. They know nothing about us and feel we should be cautious more cautious of our own horses and bikers feel that they shouldn't have to cautious because horses should be perfect.


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## Thelonebiker (Aug 15, 2009)

dynamite. said:


> Wow. I never new there was such conflict between bikers and riders.
> 
> 
> That Jayem guy is just miserable! How does he know that riders aren't riding bikes around their horses? Our horses see bikers almost daily, but when they zoom by so fast, how do they know that a bike is coming?


Yeah.... he's a *****.


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## Thelonebiker (Aug 15, 2009)

Qtswede said:


> I won't dignify most of the drivel on that page. Ignorance and attitude at it's worst. Most of the bikers, and even dirtbikers & ATV riders know enough to respect a horse coming through. The horses know to be cautious of them as well. As far as the poop issue - grow up. That's life. Trails are not sterile places. Trail maintenence? well, most trail riding clubs, and saddle clubs hold their own trail maintenence days seperate from the 'official' ones so they are staggered more through the season. Just because they don't pull up in a truck and trailer for MAINTENENCE days doesn't mean they're all automatically bikers. Geez.


 
Ok, so you won't "dignify" most of the drivel on that page I can agree whole heartedly with you there, but you feel free to add your own extremely biased and disrespectful "drivel" on this one.. Honestly it's this attitude FROM BOTH SIDES mind you, why we're arguing in the first place. It's like the saying "opinions are like A**holes, everyone's got one and they all stink"


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Sunny06 said:


> So it's kind of a catch 22. They know nothing about us and feel we should be cautious more cautious of our own horses and bikers feel that they shouldn't have to cautious because horses should be perfect.


Oops. I meant: 

They know nothing about us and feel we should be more cautious of our own horses and bikers feel that they shouldn't have to cautious because horses should be perfect.


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## rider1 (Aug 15, 2009)

Hi folks, another lone venturer looking for mostly civil discourse and perhaps understanding. I'm not going to go into the trail work issue, as I attend trail advocacy meetings side by with Backcountry Horsemen, many whom I am on a first name basis, and they've come to me for advice on access issues.I have also experienced first hand working with BCH folks on trail clearing and some big projects. I'm also not going to address the right away/spooking thing - trail horses are pretty solid in my community, and overall we all get along.

I do want to offer some comment/discussion on the horse poop issue. I can deal with a few apples here and there scattered along the trail, but from what I've seen, there is a disregard for common courtesy about piles of poop seem to be the norm - 

[FONT=&quot]One, in the backcountry in Idaho. There's a beautiful lake that is a trail destination for all users: horses, hikers, bikers. It is a nationally recommended trail. It is complete with a sandy beach that is a lovely lunch spot, place to kick back, have a swim or enjoy the view. This is not solitude: on any given day you'll have many different users: hikers, backpackers, mountain bikers, fisherman and horses. On my last ride there, a group of horsemen were just leaving, and one of the critters left a huge steaming pile, right in the middle of this empty, lovely beach that is obviously being used by many visitors. We had planned a swim and lunch, and now we have sit around and look at it? The horsemen came back from their trip around the lake, and I bluntly asked them if they could clean it up so everyone else could enjoy the beach, and was basically laughed at. "it's only poop". Sure, just one steaming pile in a well visited , heavily used area. One rider DID come back to sheepishly clean it up, which was greatly appreciated. I got the impression they had snuck away from the group to do it.Lets face it folks, would you want to have lunch at a beach with a steaming pile of ANY kind of poo right in the middle?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]I am quite sorry to say this experience left a very negative impression.
[/FONT]



> Poop is, like most have said, biodegradable. Maybe even the fastest breaking-down poop I've ever seen. It's life. Dogs poop on trails too, and it stinks more but nobody makes a fuss over it..


They don't have dog do bags on your trail systems? They are very common around here. Dog do is stinky, and full of pathogens. In my community, there are simple laws and requirements to clean up after dogs on trails. Like I said, I don't mind a few apples, but to compare to dog do is silly.



> if you are really roughing it obviously even people have to leave some some where:smile:


Leave No Trace ethics teach that you leave your human poop buried 6" in the soil and 200' away from a water source, and that you pack out the paper. If you've ever camped somewhere were humans leave piles with TP roses, under the stump 15 feet from the firepit, you'd agree that it is pretty disgusting.



> From a horse persons view. I don't think we should clean out our trailers at the trail head. I think it's very incourtious to leave a pile of horse manure/straw/woodshavings etc at the parking area. If my horses crap on the black top at the trail head, I carry a manure fork in the trailer and fling the road apples off into the brush. These areas of concentrated use, should be kept clean.


*
THANK YOU*. Your mentality is uncommon. I tent camp at a place where the horse users routinely shovel out their trailers right into the camp sites. We've learned over the years to bring shovels and other tools to clean the sites so that we can set up tents and walk around.

It is refreshing to hear that not everyone is habituated to horse poo as something innocuous.



> As far as poop goes, when I am on the trails and my horse decides to fertilize the land, I dismount and push it off of the trail with my boot. It's just something I've been taught since the beginning. I suppose if I was a hiker or biker and I didn't appreciate horses and all that comes with them I'd be a little upset to run into poop too. But at the same time, that's what comes with riding/hiking in the middle of a national park. It's NATURE.


Again, THANK YOU but you need to know that mountain bikers are not permitted on trails in any National Park, or congressionally mandated Wilderness Areas in the USA.

thanks, lets keep moving forward..


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## Catalyst (Aug 12, 2008)

Rider1:

Why aren't mountain bikers allowed in National parks? I have never heard that before! 

Regarding moving horse manure out of concentrated areas - You'll find that a lot of riders will move hay and manure from trailer parking areas or anywhere that their horse will be spending a lot of time in, especially if there are other "strange" horses in the area. I never let my horse eat grass in trailer areas simply because you don't know who had defecated in that area and who may or may not have worms. I completely understand about wanting to keep high traffic areas, campgrounds, etc clean, and everyone else should too. I think what people are trying to say regarding horse manure out on trails is that it is biodegradable and is not going to hurt the environment. Unsightly? Yes. Steamy, smelly, and lots of it? Yes, yes, yes. It's hard to control where your horse goes, and sometimes you don't even notice unless you have someone behind you that lets you know. You can train to some extent, as my BO's gelding will move off the trail when he has to pee. If I am on a multi-use trail, I do kick manure off the trail. When I'm riding elsewhere and haven't seen anyone the many times I've been there, I won't.


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## Hali (Jun 17, 2009)

Wow. I can definitely see the issue on both sides of the fence. Being a trail rider, I have had the fortune of running in to courteous MTBRs as well as the misfortune to run into some . . . well, less than polite ones.

From an equestrian point of view:

1) Yes, if a horse is untrained, not used to trails, or quite flighty, it may be better for the horse rider to stick to trails that don't have frequent MTBRs, that don't have many blind corners. However, I don't care if it's a horse, bike or a human on foot, there is NO reason to fly around a corner blindly. It's just stupidity.
2) I have always been taught that if your horse poops, get off and shove it to the side. It's common courtesy. It actually bugs me when I see equestrians fail to do this. Yes it's inconvienient to dismount and push the poo off the trail, but you NEED to think of those you share the trail with.


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## dashygirl (Nov 21, 2006)

rider1 said:


> Again, THANK YOU but you need to know that mountain bikers are not permitted on trails in any National Park, or congressionally mandated Wilderness Areas in the USA.


Ok, my bad. I didn't know that. I meant in any place where equestrians and bikers share space.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I love how the signs at the parks here - state YEILD TO HORSES. Bikes and Walkers must yield to horses. We get the right of way  

I'm never rude to bikers when we encounter one another on the trails, and I have yet to come by a biker who is rude to me. I usually move off to the side so they can pass and we usually pass pleasantries. 

My horse poops while on the ride, well - that's natural. Bike tires are made of rubber, they hose off easily or they wash off when they cross the creeks. Get over it. My horse walks through other horse poop and doesn't have a tissy fit about it. I walk through horse poop and I don't call the WAHmbulance about it. 

Now in the parking lot, if my horse poops while tied to the trailer, I clean it up. If my horse poops anywhere while out in the parking lot, it gets cleaned up. Whether it be a pile of hair, hay, shavings from the trailer, poop - doesn't matter, it gets cleaned up.

I've been lucky to have encountered polite and courteous bikers, I have yet to meet an ignorant one - but you bet your bippy if I do meet someone who thinks they have the right to throw words at me, I'll throw them back.


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## fattirewilly (Aug 16, 2009)

I'll jump in here too as a mt biker. I rode horses for 10 year (age 8-18), fox hunting and trail riding. I'm 35 now. My favorite was bareback swimming through a pond. 

Anyhow that other thread has a lot of drivel from people who don't have experience with horses and have probably lost trails in high population areas to equestrians. The equestrians probably lost trail to bikers too. Johnny land manager gets X number of calls about trail conflicts, so he cuts the trails in half, dividing the user groups.

On the poop issue, the hang up isn't getting it on the tires. Ride a bike through a puddle? You get wet! Same with poo, it gets spun off the tire onto clothing, into your face etc. I really think this is an issue only in well traveled areas. No one is suggesting hauling a pitchfork, one of your members here carries a dust pan (Riosdad) that I noticed in a different thread. Kicking the poop off or backing the rear end off the trail would be great.

Post holing is the biggest issue IMO. Both bikes and horses need to be more considerate and stay off public multiuse trails when conditions are wet. On narrow side slope built trails, please don't knock the "bench" off the lower edge.

On Spooky horses, I grew up with Thoroughbreds and Quarter horses. The "dumb bloods" where naturally fast and beautiful, but they would spook at a milk jug they'd been past 100 times. The Quarter horses always seemed more "reliable" on the trail. I don't know if that goes for all horses of a breed, but picking a certain breed for public trail riding could be something to consider, in addition to familiarizing a horse with other types of users.


Lastly, I'm currently helping build a trail network (County Park) that will have equestrian use. The horse folks have been out multiple times to help us. We plan on having mixed mt bike/horse trail rides to educate the different user groups. This could be done anywhere.

Lastly, horses and bikers need to work together on Wilderness issues. Sure horses are allowed in Wilderness and bikes are not. However your chainsaw isn't allowed in Wilderness, and many trails would likely disappear without the chainsaw.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

I can't tell you how many trails I have had to clear with and with out a chain saw. Where legal, I take an extra horse and pack a chain saw in early in the season to cut out the dead fall. In the wilderness areas, I carry an Axe. It's a lot more work, but it is doable. I've spent many a day cutting out trees like these.









When bikers complain about equestrians not helping maintain the trails, It's because they usually don't work on a trail at the same time. Your bike club holds a Trail Maintenance day and wonders why no horsepeople show up. The Back Country Horse host a trail day and wonder why no bikers show up. We don't read each others calenders or news letters. I'm a tall man and I ride a 16 hh horse. So there are a lot of branches that hit me in the face. So I'm constantly trimming those. some times I carry pruners, But mostly I just break them off and toss them off the side of the trail. With pruners, I have one hand on the riens controlling the horse and one holding the pruner, so the branch falls where it may when cut. And I can see the comments from bikers being concerned about branches through the spokes of a wheel.

As I mention in the earlier post. Bikers have always been very courtious to me. I don't mind sharing the trails with them. I guess I don't worry about Road Apples because I don't usually ride where there are many bikers. So when I do share a trail, I treat it like every other trail.

Kinda like, is Horse manure from a couple of horses worse than ?


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## rider1 (Aug 15, 2009)

Catalyst said:


> Rider1:
> 
> Why aren't mountain bikers allowed in National parks? I have never heard that before!


The legislation, as written in the 1964 Wilderness Act that established the federal concept of "Wilderness Area" mandates that nothing "mechanized" is allowed. This includes chainsaws and bikes. Handicapped users have a special allowance, and in certain wilderness areas like the Frank Church in Idaho, airplanes are grandfathered in. But mountain bikes? Nope, nope, and nope. It is a huge sore spot in the mountain biking community. National Parks allow mountain bikes only on (some) dirt roads, paved roads, and bike paths. There are some experiments to start allowing bikes as a test program in a very few National Parks, but it is extremely limited.


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## LeahKathleen (Mar 5, 2009)

So, I did not read every post, but I did skim most of it, as well as the link posted by the OP.

Most of it is uneducated nonsense, and I won't bother with it, but I will say this. To assume that I don't have control over my animal is just silly - it's an animal, not a machine. Your bike has no mind of its own, it does what you tell it, regardless of circumstance. It never thinks for itself.

I wanted to point out that horses do not associate things the same way the people do. Seeing a bicycle on a trail is a completely different experience than seeing one at home. *Unlike humans, horses do not associate objects with circumstance.* A bike at home is the norm. A bike on a trail is a potential predator. Often we horse enthusiasts forget that too. We wonder why our dead broke, show seasoned arena horses who spend all their days around dogs and cars and bikes and obstacles spook at the wind on the trails - trails are different. The horse is out of its home, its territory - and is therefore on its guard.

I have several seasoned trail and competition horses who still spook at plastic bags blowing in the wind sometimes. It's just circumstance. They are prey animals, and they will protect themselves - it's instinct.

I will say, however, kudos to the individuals who chose to attempt to bridge this gap. I honestly have never had much of an issue with bikers. I live in horse country though, and horses are usually given the right of way by default - people can understand that a horse is an animal and their vehicle is a machine.

We should work together. Speeding around a corner is selfish and unthoughtful, just as galloping my horse around a corner is selfish and unthoughtful. We must all be aware that the trails will be occupied by hikers, bikers, joggers, dog walkers, equestrians, and whatever else - and that the space is to be shared. You would spook if a bicycle came barreling around the corner at you - and you're at the top of the food chain. Think about how a horse feels. We'll let you know when we're coming, if you let us know when you're coming. Easy enough, I think.

Anyway, /endrant.

My two cents.


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## Qtswede (Apr 16, 2009)

Well, lonebiker, I'm not sure what it was that I wrote that offended you. I was a little miffed myself after reading a lot of that crap in the link, so if my intonation came off as snotty - well, it probably was. 
However, I don't think the material I put in there was overly nasty. Unless it was the crap comment that got to you - even though it looked like you already are knowledgeable enough in horses that you shouldn't have taken it as a personal jibe. If it makes you feel any better, like I said in my first post, several of the saddle clubs and trail clubs I am in, including the one I started, _make their own trail maintenance days._ We work on several public trails, including ones we rarely, if ever ride. Can the same be said of every trail club? Probably not. Mountain Bikers don't bother me. To be honest, there really aren't many around this area, but there are a few in my neighborhood that seem to think that my personal horse trails are there exclusively for them. I've even had some tell me to find another place to ride my horses - when on my own property. Go figure on that one.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Great post LeahKathleen.


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## Trails (Jan 28, 2009)

LoneBiker,

Thank you for bringing up the point. I've seen, and been, on both sides of this argument as a mnt biker AND a horse rider. 

As you allude to there is a finite amount of trails and we ALL have to play nice and play together to maintain our access to them. I've personally seen trail systems closed to ALL uses because of user conflict. It's the easiest "fix" for park administrators. 

Again, thank you for reaching out!


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## LeahKathleen (Mar 5, 2009)

MIEventer said:


> Great post LeahKathleen.


 
Thanks. :]


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

That Jayem guy has a lot of hate in his heart.


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## Rissa (Feb 10, 2009)

I keep reading and reading on that forum how "equestrians have such a sense of entitlement."

Boy, they are hypocrites. THEY seem to have just as much "entitlement" attitude.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

I find it funny too how many think all equestrians are loaded. Most (not all) trail riders are making sacrifices in their lives in order to have horses. they certainly don't have cash to "wave around" to get their way


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## Lonestar22 (May 22, 2009)

dont most laws regarding horses say that if you are in a designated horse area and get hurt by a horse then you are responsible? C'mon you are human you have the higher thinking power. You know that a horse is uncontrolable at times. don't do anything to make that time when your near it. It's everybodys responsibility to make it safe. dont do anything you know will scare a horse. or even if you think it might spook them then dont do it. dont like the horse then get off the trail.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Any chance you mountain bikers want to come to Manitoba? I'll gladly trade in if it means getting ride of the quads and snowmobiles!

I have no issue with bikers. After dealing with the ignorant quads and snowmobilers who do their best to make our lives a living hell, my horse would nuzzle a mountain biker in relief. Nothing scary about a quiet moving object when you've been chased by roaring motors for miles!

Personally though, I've always stuck to horse trails. I avoid multi-use trails because I HAVE specific horse trails to stay on. I can definately understand how frustrating it is with the damage horses do. And personally, I just prefer avoiding situations where my horse may be in danger, either from ignorant hikers or possible bicyclists. 

I also agree with the bikers - no, you can't stop a horse from spooking if they come flying around a corner, but a spook is a FLINCH. If your horse goes bat**** crazy and throws a fit, GET IT OFF THE TRAIL. As a horseback rider, I am just as annoyed by half-trained animals ridden by amateurs on the trail. They're a danger to not only other people, but other horseback riders as well.

As for the poop, if you're on a multi-use trail, I definately think you should clean it up. Getting off and kicking it to the side of the trail isn't half the inconvenience it is for bikers and hikers trying to tromp through it. Again, the reason why I use HORSE trails. Manure helps fertilize the ground, and horseback riders aren't bothered by poop.

So I can definately see both sides of this arguement and why people get so heated. There is ignorance and stupidity on both sides, and unfortunately it's fuelling the stereotype for both sides. If everyone could just put it in their head to be courteous, a resolution could be reached (as we've heard from many different areas who manage to co-exist harmoniously). But until people decide to take that route, tension will always exist.


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## bloodhoundmom28 (Jun 1, 2009)

we have trails here that have just recently been open to the Mt bikers and to me it was a mistake. there are tones of bike trails in the same area but they are now letting them on the horse side to. I dont mind them zipping by or even them on one side of the trail and me on another. BUT what i do mind as mentioned before is them flying around blind corners. We always walk around them after we say loudly " horses coming around" My horse nugget is one of those horses that wont spook or move around if there is something in our way he will find a way through it the last time we were out we met with some "extreem" Mt bikers. The out come of the one guy flying around the corner and into MY horse was not the most pleasing. Nug only had a few scratches but the biker acused me of being reckless....... 

i like the moto you stay out of my way i stay out of yours and we can meet in the middle to help maintain the trails


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## Juniper (May 4, 2007)

Wow! Painted Horse, those are beautiful pictures. Makes me want to get out and ride.


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