# someone illegally sold me a horse



## autismmommy

I bought a horse about 9 months ago and paid around $4,000 for her.She was described to us as being a show horse in western pleasure and that we could breed her.She is 11 years old.We gave the cashiers check to the stable owner to give to the "owner" of the horse but he was not to do this until she had ALL the required paperwork including reg and transfer/bill of sale.He gave her the money and it took me a month to even get the bill of sale.So here I am 9 months later with only a COPY of her registration and a bill of sale not for my state.I have had many calls/texts with the person I bought her from and its one excuse and lie after another for why she hasn't transferred her to me.I have in the last 2 days found the original owner and now I know why she never did.There was a legally binding contract between them.She was given the horse with promise of first refusal or a foal.She could not sell her and did.I legally do not own this horse and she stole my money.I also need to say we were told she was 100% paint and she is not.We do have the copy of her paint registration but she is also reg Pinto and both are still in the original owners name.So my question is:what should I or can I do legally? Who do I call? I am very upset and usually could handle things but this is just too complex.Thank you for reading.


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## rookie

First welcome and I am so sorry you are in this situation. I would contact a lawyer and see what options you have. How much do you like this mare? Do the original owners want this mare back? If the original owner had the legal contract then they should also be speaking to a lawyer. It may be that if this is a good home and the original owner does not want the mare they may be able to transfer ownership to you. I think its important to keep some lines of communication open with the original owners as clearly you were both had in this horrible situation.


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## Annanoel

This should technically be in horse law, but ok. 

Did you get anything in writing before you gave the check or money? Did you look at the horse in person and meet with owners before purchasing? Is the horse out of state?

I'm confused on details here..


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## Jake and Dai

Welcome to the forum autismmommy!

I am so sorry to hear you're in this situation. The best thing you could do is to consult an attorney. Good luck to you!


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## Jake and Dai

Duplicate post.


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## Annanoel

Jake and Dai said:


> Welcome to the forum autismmommy!
> 
> I am so sorry to hear you're in this situation. The best thing you could do is to consult an attorney. Good luck to you!


I do agree and you should seek an attorney regardless, time is important in an issue like this.


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## EvilHorseOfDoom

I'll just note first that she can be both 100% (registered) Paint and registered Pinto. Pinto, like buckskin and a few others, is a colour registration - if the horse is correctly coloured then it can be registered as a Pinto whatever the breed.

Personally I wouldn't have relied on the stable owner to look after my interests when it came to the transfer of money - I'm pretty sure they'd be more likely to have a good relationship with the owner than you, as the owner is a client.

From where I sit, depending on how legally binding any of these contracts actually were (I know lots of people request the "first refusal" thing but I'm pretty sure most of the time it isn't actually binding, but more a goodwill move), the horse belongs to either you or the original owner. Do you have any form of receipt, or evidence (emails, text messages etc) that you paid for the horse? Were there any witnesses when you handed over the cashiers cheque to the stable owner?

And yes, get professional legal advice ASAP!


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## autismmommy

Annanoel-
This is my first post and didn't understand how to post or where.
Ok this is the details.We were boardingand the owner of the stable was this womans best friend.We gave him the cashiers check the next morning andhe was to have the paperwork then but told us she would drop them off later that day after work but she didn't.We asked him for the cashiers check back and he flipped out and said he wouldn't give it to her until he got the papers.I left to go on a family trip and my hubby was taking care of it for me.I found out he gave it to her.I called him and demanded the papers by the end of the day.He had them but it was an out of state bill of sale and nothing original just copies.We have been trying to sort this out with Paint for 9 months and trying to get her to cooperate but she is lying to me and contradicting herself constantly.After speaking to the original owners and finding out she coukdnt sell her it just makes this even worse.Does this help you to understand a bit more? We did meet with owner and saw the horse.We were in the stall next to her for months.


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## Red Cedar Farm

I just want to say that I am so sorry about the predicament you are in here. I hope and pray everything works out for you here. Definitely get yourself a good lawyer to help you.


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## autismmommy

We do have a bill of sale from her but after talking to original owner she couldn't sell her and that's why she won't transfer to us.They would find out


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## DraftyAiresMum

Does the person who sold you the horse have the horse's actual papers in hand? 

I agree with whoever said that first right of refusal won't stand up in court. The foal clause, however, might be more difficult to deal with. Is there a written contract between the person you bought the horse from and the previous owner?

If I were you, I'd be talking to a lawyer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## autismmommy

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Does the person who sold you the horse have the horse's actual papers in hand?
> 
> I agree with whoever said that first right of refusal won't stand up in court. The foal clause, however, might be more difficult to deal with. Is there a written contract between the person you bought the horse from and the previous owner?
> 
> If I were you, I'd be talking to a lawyer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## autismmommy

There is a legal contract between the original owner and the person we bought her from but I have not seen it.I am hoping they will release this if we go to court but I'm worried we could loose money and our baby.We love this horse.I just don't know if the old owners will get involved OR even sign her over to me.She was given for free to the person I bought her from because she made so many promises.The original owners haven't heard from her in over a year but she told me they talked last week and they are working together to resolve this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## autismmommy

What is a foal clause?
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## DraftyAiresMum

The foal clause is the part of the contract where it stated that the original owner had first right of refusal OR got a foal out of the mare before she could be resold.
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## autismmommy

I need them to email me a copy of the contract
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## DraftyAiresMum

Really, you're kind of in a holding pattern until the other two parties can resolve their end of it. Your ownership of the mare hinges on the outcome of their dispute.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie

First of all, have you been paying for feed and care for this 9 months?

In livestock law, possession is indeed 9/10 of the law.

I would move this horse immediately to a place unknown to the BO, the original owner or the person that sold her to you. You have a LOT more leverage when you have the horse and a sizable bill against it.

I think, YOU should be the first person to file a suit for the original papers and transfer rather than wait for one of them to sue for possession.

Get this horse moved and fully in your possession. Do not tell the BO when or where you are going. Just GO!

Then, get a lawyer well versed in livestock and preferably horse law and by all means, be the aggressor.


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## autismmommy

Cherie said:


> First of all, have you been paying for feed and care for this 9 months?
> 
> In livestock law, possession is indeed 9/10 of the law.
> 
> I would move this horse immediately to a place unknown to the BO, the original owner or the person that sold her to you. You have a LOT more leverage when you have the horse and a sizable bill against it.
> 
> I think, YOU should be the first person to file a suit for the original papers and transfer rather than wait for one of them to sue for possession.
> 
> Get this horse moved and fully in your possession. Do not tell the BO when or where you are going. Just GO!
> 
> Then, get a lawyer well versed in livestock and preferably horse law and by all means, be the aggressor.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## autismmommy

Cherie-we have the mare at our house and she has been here for almost 4 months now in our barn.When we saw the seller would not cooperate with us,we took her and brought her home.She was only there while we built here.The previous owners cannot take her back at this time due to financial reasons and they are out of state.I offered to sell her back to them.And only because that is the right thing to do since they originally had 1st refusal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie

Good for you.

I have never dealt with APHA, but AQHA will re-issue Registration papers with a court order if the courts rule that she is yours and you should have the papers. They may require DNA testing to prove that she is who she is supposed to be. The only times I have had to deal with this was with AQHA and at that time I only had to supply four photos of the horse and a copy of the court order. I just got the court order through small claims court and my total expenses (except for the board bills and training bills against the horse) was less than $100.00.

Added. I would first write APHA and tell them that the 'owner of record' will not give you the papers. Send them a copy of your Certified Check. Tell them that they will not give you the original papers and a transfer. They will ask their side of the story and will demand the papers from them or threaten them with sanctions and/or they will be denied APHA privileges.

Added some more. This IS NOT an 'illegal sale'. Don't call it that. No law was broken. It is strictly a Civil Matter. Possession and the most recent feed bill should over-ride everything else. You just need to be the aggressor.


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## autismmommy

Cherie said:


> Good for you.
> 
> I have never dealt with APHA, but AQHA will re-issue Registration papers with a court order if the courts rule that she is yours and you should have the papers. They may require DNA testing to prove that she is who she is supposed to be. The only times I have had to deal with this was with AQHA and at that time I only had to supply four photos of the horse and a copy of the court order. I just got the court order through small claims court and my total expenses (except for the board bills and training bills against the horse) was less than $100.00.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## autismmommy

Cherie-
Thanks for all your great info 
I am going to be totally honest here and tell you I do want to go to court and I want her to pay deeply for what she has done.I want to sue her for $4,000 + boarding fees and training we had done and keep the horse.I don't think this is at all possible but I can dream lol
I would like to meet with an attorney to get info and put the case together and go at this alone because I know I can do it 
Please be honest with me and tell me what YOU think I could accomplish by going to court.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stevenson

get an attornry and sue for your money. if the original owner gave the horse away get a copy of the paper work. does the BO have a letter of refusal ? also maybe work a deal with the original owner, to get a foal but put in writing they pay all stallion fees, Vet bills, and additional feed bills while the horse is preg and while nursing the foal.


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## autismmommy

I contacted the original owner a few hours ago and told her to email me the contract they had.Im hoping she will.If she doesn't do it this way I will have my attorney get it.I really need to see what it said so I know what my limits are in court.I am planning on having the owner of the barn (he also owns the feed store in town) served because he is the one that released my money and wrote the bill of sale.I know he is aware of this whole situation with the original owner due to the fact they are best friends.He is as much to blame if not more than she is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie

The original contract between the Original Owner and the second owner is not binding on you. It does not matter. You didn't sign it or into into this contract. She cannot make you do anything.

If she does not like the way things have turned out, she must sue the person that signed the contract. Again, it is a Civil Matter between them and you do not need to care what she thinks.

You must sue the person that took your money. They are the one you entered an 'unwritten agreement or contract' with. The second owner that she sold the horse was responsible for that part of that sale that was to deliver the papers to you. 

You will have to talk to a lawyer, but I think any Civil action you take should name both of them as co-defendants. 

I do not think you can have both the money back and the horse. I think you will have to sue for the papers and any actual monetary damages not having the papers has caused you. I do not know about your state, but the states I have lived in have had $5000.00 limits on suits you can bring in 'Small Claims Court'. Anything else requires full legal papers and legal representation.


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## nikelodeon79

Do you want the horse or do you want your $4000 back? You can't have both. 

Most first right of refusal clauses are not enforceable, nor is the foal clause, most likely.

You have a bill of sale, why can't you transfer her yourself? Clause or no clause, the person who sold you the horse DID legally own her. Any clause broken between that person and the past owner doesn't concern you.

I wouldn't so quick to bring a lawsuit to "make them pay." YOU might be the one who ends up paying. You could end up with no horse, no $4000, and a bunch of legal fees.
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## jaydee

I think you need to speak to a legal professional ASAP.
I dont know how US law works but I ended up in a similar situation when someone sold me a horse that was pretty much a useless case as far as riding went when I got him. After several years of hard work to turn him around I was confronted at a show by the real owner who had actually only loaned the horse to the woman who sold him to me - he hadnt wanted the horse either as he couldnt handle him but as soon as he saw the change he wanted him back
Essentially I had no say in it as it was between them to fight it out in court, the horse was returned to its original owner and though I fought for my money back I only got part of it and nothing at all to reflect all the time and money I'd spent. I wont even go into the heartbreak.
I hope you can resolve things with a happier result
Good luck


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## mls

autismmommy said:


> Cherie-we have the mare at our house and she has been here for almost 4 months now in our barn.When we saw the seller would not cooperate with us,we took her and brought her home.She was only there while we built here.The previous owners cannot take her back at this time due to financial reasons and they are out of state.I offered to sell her back to them.And only because that is the right thing to do since they originally had 1st refusal.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Who is the recorded owner of the mare? That is the person who needs to fork over the papers.

If she is still in the name of the original owner, they can apply for duplicate papers.


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## Annanoel

Thank you for clarifying! As you've said you have the horse in YOUR barn, it sounds like you have a bill of sale too. The only thing you don't have are the papers. So as Nik said you can't have both. If you have the horse and want to keep it, which it sounds like you do, then just work on getting the papers. 
Even though you didn't have to offer it was great that you offered the horse back to the original owners. 

Again though I wouldn't make a big deal and try to get revenge by her paying. You have your horse you just don't have the papers.


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## churumbeque

autismmommy said:


> Cherie-we have the mare at our house and she has been here for almost 4 months now in our barn.When we saw the seller would not cooperate with us,we took her and brought her home.She was only there while we built here.The previous owners cannot take her back at this time due to financial reasons and they are out of state.I offered to sell her back to them.And only because that is the right thing to do since they originally had 1st refusal.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 If they can't afford her then they forfeit that clause and they should pony up the papers. Why didn't the papers get transfered to who you bought the horse from? I would file small claims papers against the owner of the stable for the cost of the horse and care for the 9 months as they were the agent and were not to release the check and I would file against the people you bought it from. That might scare them into solving the problem.


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## Nitefeatherz

I agree with churembeque. It sounds like the people you are dealing with need a "come to Jesus" moment of their own. I would file a lawsuit or at least send a certified letter stating that if they don't resolve it by xyz date then you will sue. A lot of people give in when they realize you're serious.

It sounds to me like everyone in this situation has only their own interests at heart, doesn't care a bit about you or resolving the situation and is just trying to cause trouble.


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## equinelvr

I agree with writing a very stern demand letter and show a cc at the bottom of both the original owners and name your attorney. Show them you mean business. If you really want to shake them up, go to your local courthouse and ask to have a subpoena duces tecum (to produce paper) issued, it will cost a little..usually 20.00 ish, but send that along with your demand letter to show them you are absolutely serious about going to court if need be. The main thing is this mare needs to have a clear owner so she is not yoyo-ed around.
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## stevenson

Get an attorney. Go to Civil court not small claims. No attorneys can go to court for you. It gets tricky with the first right of refusal, especially if there is no paper work showing the original owner Refused the horse. If you send a letter ask for your feed, care and all cost associated for the horse, even cost for labor for pen cleaning, grooming, farrier, vitamins, water (its not free) shavings bedding , medications, wormers, etc . If you did training, add that cost.


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## stevenson

Autismmommy.. what state are in ? Laws vary by state. Do you have children with Autism ? Is your name Nicole


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## CCH

What is the APHA registered name of the horse and I will look up its information on APHA plus for you.
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## autismmommy

Sorry I haven't responded....been very busy with the holidays 
Yes my child is Autistic but my name is not Nicole.It is Leigh.


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## autismmommy

The reason the paperwork wasn't switched was because there was a very detailed lawyer-written contract between the previous owner and the lady I bought her from and she was not allowed to sell her.If she did transfer the papers to me they would find out.It was first refusal and a foal.
I have heard every excuse known to man why she hasn't done it yet and each one is contradictory of the last.I know the person we gave the check to knew there was a contract and acted as the agent therefore he is as liable as she is.
I will be going to the court house in the next week to take care of this.I just need to find out what all I can sue for.The original owners will not email me a copy of the contract and I really need to see it.Bottom line is I bought a horse that was not able to be sold and my money was stolen!


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## Northernstar

God bless, and Godspeed! The very best of luck, and I hope it works out - please keep us informed


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## CCH

OP if you will tell me the APHA registered name of the horse, I can give you a complete list of registered owners. It may clear up some of the reason why no one will give you a copy of the papers.
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## autismmommy

CCH said:


> OP if you will tell me the APHA registered name of the horse, I can give you a complete list of registered owners. It may clear up some of the reason why no one will give you a copy of the papers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you for the offer to look her up but there is no need.I have all the original owners information and have spoken to them several times as well as APHA.What do you think this could help me with?
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## CCH

You would have a list of the breeder with address and any transfer dates, plus the names of each owner with address and transfer dates. It would also show if the horse has been DNA tested, had any foals, or shown.

APHA Plus Gold is a paid subscription service, you asked for help and that is what I can offer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## autismmommy

I tried to send you a PM but don't know if you got it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nvr2many

Im sorry if you have already said this but who has the horse at this point?? Because if you do then someone owes you not only your money but room and board also. Then on top of that pain and suffering for all the trauma/stress this has caused you and maybe others in your life, as in children that have fallen in love with the animal and such. This is going to cost someone, maybe that will be enough for everyone to want it to end quickly.


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## autismmommy

I do
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## CCH

Sorry didn't get any PM's yet
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## autismmommy

Ok I will send again
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## CCH

OP I sent you a PM last night so that maybe you could reply to it. If you're still having trouble, you can email me at [email protected]

I really hope to try to help you a little bit. I have a soft spot for paints and support the breed. I hope this gets cleared up so you can get your horse transferred and become an APHA member.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DimSum

CCH, you might want to "alter" your email to something like info (at) smokesnavajo DOT com or something like it to keep any spambot from picking it up...save yourself an inbox full of junk email.


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## CCH

DimSum said:


> CCH, you might want to "alter" your email to something like info (at) smokesnavajo DOT com or something like it to keep any spambot from picking it up...save yourself an inbox full of junk email.


Hmm didn't see this until now so it's too late now. Thanks for the tip though, I will remember that in the future. I have yet to get any junk at that address and its been active for years, so godaddy must have a decent filter.
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## stevenson

I dont know what state you are in. In California.. even if you unkowingly purchase any item that is stolen, then you can go to jail for buying stolen property. You should try contacting the 'owner' again. Give the same option that she gave the dishonest person, and make a contract with her. You should get an attorney. Find one that specializes in livestock or horses. You could even bring up your childs condition to get a sympathy vote in your favor. Its a shame that there are so many dishonest people out there. It just makes it harder for us honest people.


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## stevenson

oops.. maybe not the same agreement, but that she could use the mare for a foal if bred in the next year, I would not leave it with out a closed date. Because if you are going to show,or if your child is, then you will be out a show season due to the foaling. I would put time limits .


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## Majolica

I usually just read on this forum, but had to join to address this thread. Please, PLEASE contact an attorney before you do ANYTHING. Laws differ depending on the state, or even locality. Further, a lot of the advice you have been given has been incorrect and may end up costing you even more money. One thing I will say, GENERALLY you will not be able keep the horse AND get your money back. Obviously, if the horse is unable to be registered, there is SOME leeway to that general rule. However, it is HIGHLY unlikely that you are going to get to keep the horse, get $4000 back, plus all your costs. Or even the majority of that. 

This is why I am stating that you need to speak with an attorney to actually determine what you ARE entitled to and don't waste a bunch of money suing for amounts you will not receive. (I honestly think this situation SHOULD be able to be resolved outside of court since the ONLY thing you are out is the registration papers. What happens now between the original owner and the seller is really of no concern to you as long as you get the registration papers.)


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