# Tb (4yo), any thoughts



## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Firstly, I'm thrilled with this now, but it's been a long-road to get to here.









She's well-bred, and by top-class sire King's Theatre










Maybe you see a bit of the sire in her ??

She's from the same family I've posted before, so you may remember them.

She's had problems -- in particular her croup was very low and despite a lovely pedigree we couldn't sell her last summer which was a real blow as she was gorgeous as a 2yo,

She really looked like a pony, but we changed her feed and now she looks like a real racehorse to me, lovely balance all round - sorry about the condition but the weather's been very bad in Ireland and they're not coming into their coats. Also, the ground hasn't dried out at all.

Any comments at all - since she didn't sell and we knew her quality we booked her into a stallion this Spring, but given (to me) a real turnaround it could be tempting to try for a good sale again, or even race her first,

Thoughts ?

Thanks,

Liam,


ETA - lol, sorry but it wasn't me who took her photo with her butt facing the sun! and she's probably a touch on 16h, maybe 15.3 1/2


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

?/ left hind , looks sunken by the tendon or ligament . if she is sound, She could be a dressage or hunter/jumper. You should try her in those disciplines .


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

stevenson said:


> ?/ left hind , looks sunken by the tendon or ligament . if she is sound, She could be a dressage or hunter/jumper. You should try her in those disciplines .


It might be to do with the very soft ground, obviously it's not ideal for taking a conformation picture, but it was the only practical place for it now, and yes it's for racing over flat and over jumps ... with these we let them develop fully before backing them, 

I'm just looking for an overview of how the forum sees her put together, and ofc she has quite a belly still as her diet has been changed and she's on good grass still.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

There's aren't mine -- I'll try to get some better ones,

but here's another photo,


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

given those photos, the only thing I can see is that her neck is not as well balanced as her sire's. 

her lack of selling might be due more to your marketing than to her actual conformation.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> given those photos, the only thing I can see is that her neck is not as well balanced as her sire's.
> 
> her lack of selling might be due more to your marketing than to her actual conformation.



Why do you say that ? Btw, just because she's covered in mud in February doesn't mean she wasn't gleaming in the sales ring in summer ...

We did turn down a very sizeable offer for her but trainers who came to see her were very unimpressed, she was so croup low - really like a pony - and her walk was so flat - some breeders were interested because of her pedigree.

I think things may have changed now, to me she's pulling together like a really proper horse and may interest trainers who would want to race her.

It's just she's booked into a sire, but we may put that off and try sell again. We think a lot of her, she's showed some movement around the fields which were really impressive.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

well, her neck appears, mind you from the limited views I can see, to be shorter than her sires.

and, as far as my guess that it might have to do with marketing, it's that marketing is really slick these days. just having a good product isnt' always enough. people use all kinds of online and other ways to market nowadays, and if you are not adept with that, you might have been out sold by others, who are. 

this is total supposition, though, since I dont have any idea how you went about marketing her. just an online guess from out in the digital void.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> well, her neck appears, mind you from the limited views I can see, to be shorter than her sires.


Yes, her neck is shorter than the sire's. But would you knock her for it ?

I guess what I meant when I asked if the forum saw any resemblance with the sire is that he gets a fantastic collection of kinda 'cute' racemares, as you may agree with me that he has a tiny look of a pony about him, very nice, almost pretty, certainly not a big handsome type. that's all.


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## CASugar (Oct 17, 2014)

She looks pretty good to me. You said she showed flat at the walk and I'm not sure what you mean by that, was she dragging her feet and lacking energy or pretty movement? Also you mention you saw good movement in the field (?). So I think showing a horse to sell that it is important that the horse walk with good forward movement and long stride. When leading always walk at a good clip to encourage this because even if you are in a cramped place, your horse will walk with better quality if you have done this. Also take a video of her in the field when she is moving good. Buyers love videos. As far as photos, try to keep her legs more "squared under her" and not quite so spread apart because frankly it is very hard to see how those hind legs are set on her. A little separation, like in the Sire's photo is good, but too much and you've lost your shot. Hope this helps. Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

CASugar said:


> She looks pretty good to me. You said she showed flat at the walk and I'm not sure what you mean by that, was she dragging her feet and lacking energy or pretty movement? Also you mention you saw good movement in the field (?). So I think showing a horse to sell that it is important that the horse walk with good forward movement and long stride. When leading always walk at a good clip to encourage this because even if you are in a cramped place, your horse will walk with better quality if you have done this. Also take a video of her in the field when she is moving good. Buyers love videos. As far as photos, try to keep her legs more "squared under her" and not quite so spread apart because frankly it is very hard to see how those hind legs are set on her. A little separation, like in the Sire's photo is good, but too much and you've lost your shot. Hope this helps. Good luck with whatever you decide.



Thanks CASugar,

I guess what I mean is that she was a 2yo I saw her gallop and fast trot around the field with great speed and balance. Looked really impressive,

But her development seemed to go backwards and she turned very "ponyish" like her croup never grew taller, was totally flat and she looked very 'uphill built' as she continued to grow at the withers - what has me excited about her now is that she's starting to look more balanced, at least to my eye, and hopefully her movement will come back with it,

Her walk at the sales suffered a lot a a results as she was lacking spring in her step and I suppose that was because she was out of proportion,

The photos aren't mine, I'll try to get some better ones,

Thanks for your comments,

Liam.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Better photos would help. she has a reasonbly correct hind leg.. but that steep croup hits her I think. Too bad.. her sire is not like that at all. Is her Mother steep crouped and are her siblings out of that dam steep crouped? If the answer is yes, than this female line MIGHT have that prepotency. 

She is short necked. That can ding a race horse big time. It can also help to create flat movement. 

She looks to have a nice shoulder and good bone. Nice horse over all.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm not sure how much the small faults we're looking at - her croup and the shorter neck are from the angle of the pic and how she's standing and from her winter coat, mud and age/level of fitness conditioning
I've had a lot of 4 year olds that looked croup high grow up enough in front in the 5th year for it to be barely noticeable if there at all.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Mud can be brushed out. If she spent at least one day in a stall she would dry out and could be cleaned up. There is no excuse for not lining her up to get full side shots, one front on and one rear. Honestly, I've been so busy that I haven't brushed my horses for a few months now but THEY look more ready for a sale. Does she get to spend every night in a stall?

I, too, think you are shooting yourself in the foot. Take an hour and teach yourself how to put the lighting for your photos at your back, get any of your shadow to not fall on the horse.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I do not think the OP is offereing those photos as sale photos, but rather to see what forum members thought of the mare's conformation.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

She has matured.
I wouldn't put her in foal this time but would look to getting her into training for bumpers/hurdles next season, see what potential she has and then perhaps fences.

I like her a lot. 

As for marketing, with the sales all horses are entered into the catalogue and these are sent out to potential buyers way before the sales. It is possible to visit the horse before the sale by arrangement not many buyers do, they see them at the sales. 

Sales preparation for the TB sales in Eire and UK is a big thing, if you want to sell a horse there then it has to be in good condition and well prepared and turned out. These pictures are snapshots taken to show the improvement of her hind end.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Foxhunter said:


> She has matured.
> I wouldn't put her in foal this time but would look to getting her into training for bumpers/hurdles next season, see what potential she has and then perhaps fences.
> 
> I like her a lot.
> ...



Yes, Thanks FoxHunter ... the pics are just for conformation and ofc it's difficult in the field and with other horses nosing around to get perfect ones, but we try to do our best. I guess if you can capture the essential features that's a pretty good job.

She's certainly a racy type and bumpers / hurdles would be a definite option. I was confounded by how her development stalled, but now she's showing me as a 4yo what she promised as a 2yo.


Thanks all for your comments, 

Liam.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Elana said:


> but that steep croup hits her I think.... Is her Mother steep crouped and are her siblings out of that dam steep crouped? If the answer is yes, than this female line MIGHT have that prepotency.





jaydee said:


> I'm not sure how much the small faults we're looking at...



One thing I'd say, that I've been discussing with Elana, is that YES the female line is prepotent for a steep croup but it doesn't seem to affect their way of going -- in this case the LS joint, which I think is absolutely key, is right above her point of hip (which might be deceptive given the 2d picture i.e. not walking / trotting).

It's something I'm very curious about, 

Elana thought maybe the steep croup would affect the conformation of the hip - leading to an incorrectness somewhere around the point of buttock and / or tailhead,

Personally I'm not convinced and think it might just be as simple as an ususual but totally superficial shape of the sacral vertebrae.

I'll try maybe post of video of her at the walk and anyone interested can see ...


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Actually -- just as I mention it, and since his name has come up before -- here's an Oscar 3/4 brother to the filly in question,

We also have an Oscar filly yearling -- I'll have to see how her croup develops because this fella looks very nice and level to my eyes in that dept, and in fact of all the ones that have come and gone he has quite a bit of speed also,

That sire is a definite option for some of stock from this line of ours so possibly if I find he gives this trait and it balances out well this could be very worthwhile,


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Well I do like Oscar - so that would get my vote!!!


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## arrowattack09 (Jul 10, 2012)

I guess I'm confused. You are unhappy with the fact that you haven't been able to sell her due to her conformation, but turned down a "sizeable" offer on her?? Maybe you aren't being realistic on her worth in other's eyes?


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

arrowattack09 said:


> I guess I'm confused. You are unhappy with the fact that you haven't been able to sell her due to her conformation, but turned down a "sizeable" offer on her?? Maybe you aren't being realistic on her worth in other's eyes?



This is a conformation forum, not a commercial forum.

I posted the filly to get an opinion on one aspect - her conformation.

Would you like to comment on that ? or would you like to tell me how to sell horses ? ... because if it's the latter then I'll ask, which I didn't.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

It's my fault for mentioning that she had been for sale but I was just trying to provide some context. 


There are two decent photos of a filly, a nice type, well-bred and a photo of her sire .. I'm just looking for what it says on the tin - conformation critique. 


Thankfully, through Elana, I got a clever insight and that's made the whole thing very worthwhile. So thank you Elana, you really know your stuff.


And please, I'm trying to be polite but the commercial side is a totally separate issue and was just some context to provide a backdrop,


Indeed, just to fill it out, with a tb at least, especially a colt / filly, 90% + of the value is in the exact pedigree...


Thank you for all your comments,

Liam.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

So are you more leaning to putting her in training or putting her in foal?
It would be good to see a video if you can get one


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> So are you more leaning to putting her in training or putting her in foal?
> It would be good to see a video if you can get one


Thanks Jaydee,


I'll try get a video of her, hopefully in a couple of weeks or so.


Atm, she's booked into a sire and that's where she's going, _but_ _if she really has comes right, _the King's Theatre fillies make a very good price.

(She's the last crop of the sire and a lot reckon he's much the best broodmare sire).


It's just I thought when she was a 2yo that she was going to be fantastic, and I was so disappointed when she stalled a bit as a 3yo, but just maybe. _maybe_ she's back! 


I'll post a video and some better photos, hopefully she'll even start coming into her coat.


Liam.


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## saddlebred99 (Feb 19, 2015)

Lovely dressage prospect in my opinion. She looks a bit too stocky and "ponyish" to race, though, I could be wrong. A very cute and well balanced horse over all. She does look slightly uphill but it could just be the picture. I love her face <3 I don't see why she wouldn't be an easy sell. I second jaydee with the video request. I would love to see her in action. I wish you the best of luck with her


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm sure the stocky look is her winter coat, probably some extra weight - not a bad thing for the wet Irish winter weather - and the way she's standing doesn't help. When you look at pics of a lot of the TB stallions when they're at stud compared to ones when they're racing fit its like two different horses
King's Theatre was a great stallion and now he's sadly dead his remaining direct stock are going to be worth that bit more
I've had plenty horses that I've been disappointed in as 2 and 3yr olds suddenly bloom so no way would I give up on a mare like this one
So who did you decide to send her to LTG?


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I'm sure the stocky look is her winter coat, probably some extra weight - not a bad thing for the wet Irish winter weather - and the way she's standing doesn't help. When you look at pics of a lot of the TB stallions when they're at stud compared to ones when they're racing fit its like two different horses
> King's Theatre was a great stallion and now he's sadly dead his remaining direct stock are going to be worth that bit more
> I've had plenty horses that I've been disappointed in as 2 and 3yr olds suddenly bloom so no way would I give up on a mare like this one
> So who did you decide to send her to LTG?


Oh she'll go to Presenting, more so based on her dam doing v well with him than anything. Her 3/4 sister also had a very nice Presenting. So it just seems to match up. He's still very commercial and probably my favourite NH sire overall, but Oscar is a close second (though he doesn't sell nearly as well).

Out of curiousity, if we do keep her, she was such a good-looking racy, balanced 2yo that I'd love to send her to Dalakhani and try breed a flat horse from her. That way if you tried to race at 2/3 and the foal wasn't forward enough you'd still have a NH prospect to race in a bumper / Point to Point and sell from there. That pedigree is stocked with top-class staying chasers, I'd love to give it a different dimension also. And I just find - here at least - the emphasis on speed in flat stallions means there are fantastic middle-distance ones going that get very few mares - Dalakhani a case in point, 4 classic winners, has sold a yearling for over £1m, was unbeaten himself and is from a top family, but only covered 40 mares last year ! (Everybody with flat mares wants to upgrade them now with speed, and a middle-distance horse just isn't commercial .. unless it's a Galileo or Sea the Stars .. so I look at a Dalakhani and know I'll get a NH horse to stay 2m+, but possibly also get a 1m4f 3yo and who knows how good it could be ...


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

saddlebred99 said:


> Lovely dressage prospect in my opinion. She looks a bit too stocky and "ponyish" to race, though, I could be wrong. A very cute and well balanced horse over all. She does look slightly uphill but it could just be the picture. I love her face <3 I don't see why she wouldn't be an easy sell. I second jaydee with the video request. I would love to see her in action. I wish you the best of luck with her


Thanks,

Yeah the stockiness isn't a problem, she just has a very full belly! ... and in the summer, trained, she'd be unrecognisable!

However, the 'ponyishness' is definitely a concern, but she may be growing out of it - that's exactly the problem, and the reason for this thread (which will help determine whether we keep her as a broodmare or send her back to the sales - and you can't do both ! Sales are in June / July).

As at a sale she's in with big, substantial, mature types and she has to be able to cut it there. It's very unforgiving when they're stabled all around you and buyers are going from one to the next, any flaw stands out a mile.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Like, she doesn't have to be huge, just _*correct *_- the King's Theatres quite often are very pretty types, and that's taken as a good thing.

But he gets great broodmares, and racemares, 

Here are 3 mares that are at the very top in GB+IRE, they are all very pretty but wow they can race ... they could be 2,3,4 in the handicap ratings.


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## Goldilocks (Jan 30, 2015)

Have you a pic of the dam?

Might just be the pics.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Oscar and Milan both got good reports in the H&H stallion issue - and I don't think you can go wrong with Presenting. Dalakhani is worth thinking about if you wanted to go that route


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> Oscar and Milan both got good reports in the H&H stallion issue - and I don't think you can go wrong with Presenting. Dalakhani is worth thinking about if you wanted to go that route



That's interesting! ... I never thought to look at the H&H, but of course it's what a lot of buyers will be reading.

Oscar has a few more crops than Milan, and better racehorses overall though it's balancing out. Obviously he has the last Gold Cup and a few Champion Hurdles and everything in between.

Milan tends to get better looking horses, more substantial. Sometimes the Oscars are a bit light and it really counts against them. They just aren't commercial, but they make the best racehorses.

Presenting stock are just so handsome it's unbelievable! They also tend to make the best natural steeplechasers, I think. He was a gorgeous big galloping horse, a lot of 'Busted' in him. He really stamps his stock like so. Unfortunately he's close to retirement ...


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Goldilocks said:


> Have you a pic of the dam?
> 
> Might just be the pics.



Unfortunately I don't have a good photo of the dam, but I don't think it's an issue with her - nearly all her stock have been excellent.

I just don't know what happened with this filly - she was stabled and in pasture all the time with one other who developed excellently so it wasn't a virus or sickness. All her bloods were perfect and she passed a stringent vet at the sales. 

But she had just lost the look of a real racehorse, croup so low and flat, not walking well, not trotting well ... really disappointing.


I can only say that it was possibly an unlucky growth phase - kinda like growing pains, just a little bit uneven when she needed to be right.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'd stick with Presenting, he's producing the sort of stock you want from the mare and has the build and looks to sell offspring on as eventers or hunters if they aren't fast enough to race


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I'd stick with Presenting, he's producing the sort of stock you want from the mare and has the build and looks to sell offspring on as eventers or hunters if they aren't fast enough to race


Well, they'd all sell as racing prospects. Whether they make top racehorses or run at lower handicaps they'd all be racehorses. I don't think any ever ended up off the track except maybe in retirement.

BUT ... I did read H&H and I must say they really missed a beat by leaving out Shirocco ! ... He's only in his first season as a NH sire, but he has plenty of good flat horses (including an Irish St. Leger winner), the top NH racemare (Annie Power) and a host of promising hurdlers and chasers that have come from the flat. .

The list in H&H is good, and I was a bit surprised to see Oscar at the top, and Milan in second. I'd have Presenting above both. Kayf Tara at 5 is a good choice. I wonder sometimes why a British breeder doesn't take in one of the excellent French-based NH stallions ? Only really Kayf Tara is both top-class and based in England.

I'd have to put Shirocco in that list though. I could leave out excellent sires in Beat Hollow, Mahler, Yeats, Scorpion ... lots ! But not Shirocco, he's covered his first full book of NH mares and it was stocked with quality. He'll be very successful.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I was surprised that they missed out Shirocco - maybe because he's a horse I really like re. appearance but based on form and progeny he surely earned a place
I always like to consider what a horse could do if it doesn't make the grade in racing - I think there's always been a grey area where its not so easy to fund the training costs of a horse that's not winning enough to pay its way so it becomes a hobby and not an investment and its good to think that its got the potential to do something else - or go on and do something else when it retires from racing provided its still sound and healthy


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## Goldilocks (Jan 30, 2015)

Sometimes it just works that way. My mare has bred a great foal and a terrible one to the same stallion.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I always like to consider what a horse could do if it doesn't make the grade in racing - I think there's always been a grey area where its not so easy to fund the training costs of a horse that's not winning enough to pay its way so it becomes a hobby and not an investment and its good to think that its got the potential to do something else - or go on and do something else when it retires from racing provided its still sound and healthy


Well I think you can never start from the point of thinking a racehorse is an investment ! ... it's gonna cost you money, unless you get something very special, or you have the residual value in a good broodmare.

I suppose in Ireland at least, we always have need for mares who if not going to breed will be used as companions for more commercial ones. 

And then you have the Point to Points, and a lot of amateur trainers who take it as a hobby to train for them, and maybe put their sons and daughters up ... I guess that's kinda what you mean by 'Hunters' ... 

I know it's political, but I think in Ireland at least we have a much stronger emotional connection to horses that we very rarely dispense with them as happens a lot stateside (as far as I know). I'm sure it's the same in England.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There certainly isn't a lot of money in breeding horses - unless you get lucky now and again!!!
My ex. neighbor (and still friend) in the UK breeds a couple every year mostly for jump racing but seems to get as much money or more for them sold as eventers and for (fox/drag) hunting if they don't make top grade for racing and if they've got good conformation and action they can sell as show ring horses
The TB is a very versatile breed and way tougher than people give them credit for


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

LTG said:


> The list in H&H is good, and I was a bit surprised to see Oscar at the top, and Milan in second. I'd have Presenting above both. Kayf Tara at 5 is a good choice. I wonder sometimes why a British breeder doesn't take in one of the excellent French-based NH stallions ? Only really Kayf Tara is both top-class and based in England..


My late boss would work out the best sore list in a different way. He took in money won distance and all the usual points but he then worked out winners to runners and several other issues - it took him ages and I would go over the numbers with him.
It made for interesting statistics often altering what were the top NH sires.

It was also interesting to see in the H&H hownthenTB has fallen out of favour for competition horses and how few studs were standing TBs.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Foxhunter said:


> My late boss would work out the best sore list in a different way. He took in money won distance and all the usual points but he then worked out winners to runners and several other issues - it took him ages and I would go over the numbers with him.
> It made for interesting statistics often altering what were the top NH sires.


I suppose one of the key adjustments is that 'the best' sires also get the best broodmares, so when you factor that out ... 



> It was also interesting to see in the H&H hownthenTB has fallen out of favour for competition horses and how few studs were standing TBs.


I think there's a bit of a problem to broaden the ownership base. The big owners dominate more now and their trainers (the Hendersons, Nicholls) are so advanced it's hard for a small owner / trainer team to compete or dream to have a champion.


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