# AQHA cutting mare, would you breed her based on confo and bloodlines?



## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Sorry didn't check her pedigree. I see an aged mare with calf knees, straight upright shoulder, tiny gaskins, common head but I can't see all of it, picture is cutoff, so could be better. She has a decent heart girth, back is not too long, dip after her withers, fairly clean throatlatch, muscled undersided of her neck, nothing on top. Her bone density looks ok to me. She looks in perfect weight. If she has lasted 17 years without lameness, this works for her.


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## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

oh my well thats why i posted...i will say that she was retired from cutting at 14 to be a trail/lesson horse. she is not lame but was campaigned IMO WAY too early as a 2yo., and way too long till she was 10 when we bought her even then, with vet check he said she had bony changes to her knees and the beginnings of artheritisin her hocks, but she had more try than i've ever seen. Could her appearing calf kneed have something to do with her age and artheritis?


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

I didn't check her pedigree either..I'm not sure if she's ever had a foal before, I'm assuming she hasn't by your post above..She is already 17 with arthritis problems and back hocks, I wouldn't even chance breeding her. If she would be a maiden mare absolutely not, that is too much stress and could cause major physical problems for both she and the foal..Not a good idea.


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## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

not a maiden, she has a 6 yr. old gelding by Hickory's Indian Pep, and he is the most catty, clever horse that ive met, and he is currently my neighbor's lease horse because she doesnt want to be responsible for ramdom huge vet bills........


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

That's still a lot to ask of a 17 year old mare who already has problems...and just because her first foal is the most catty and clever horse doesn't guarantee her second with be. I still wouldn't do it, there are plenty of young prospects out there that need homes.


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## Evansk (Dec 22, 2011)

DrumRunner said:


> That's still a lot to ask of a 17 year old mare who already has problems...and just because her first foal is the most catty and clever horse doesn't guarantee her second with be. I still wouldn't do it, there are plenty of young prospects out there that need homes.


 
Heres her pedigree Gamble Ona Fanny Quarter Horse=

Drumrunner I'm sure you'll know more about her lines than most! 

And I agree with Drumrunner, if she's already having problems with her joints (knees hocks anything) breeding her can damage them more, the extra weight of the foal + her own, putting more weight on her joints probably isn't the best thing for her. IMO

With all the youngsters out there you can probably find one easily and get it for the same price of breeding (stud fees, mare fees, vet fees) and save your mares joints from more damage, again IMO  

But in the end, its your horse and your choice.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Thank you Evansk. Taking that as a compliment!

She's got good bloodlines that even go back to a really good foundation. She's definitely bred for cutting, no doubt about that...but according to her pedigree she's 18, not 17. So that gives it even more of a chance for something to go wrong..that's an old girl that should be left as a lesson horse and let her have an easy life...especially because she was started and shown hard when she was younger.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Evansk said:


> if she's already having problems with her joints (knees hocks anything) breeding her can damage them more, the extra weight of the foal + her own, putting more weight on her joints probably isn't the best thing for her.


I am not saying breed or do not breed this particular mare. I am addressing the situation overall -


If the problems are not genetic - and a person elected to not breed a mare due to joint issues, there would be a LOT less good broodmares in the world.

A vet who is an EXPERT on breeding and neonatal care is the resource. If a mare is not physcially sound - again due to injury and not a conformation defect - the mare can be flushed and the embryo transplanted.


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## Evansk (Dec 22, 2011)

mls said:


> I am not saying breed or do not breed this particular mare. I am addressing the situation overall -
> 
> 
> If the problems are not genetic - and a person elected to not breed a mare due to joint issues, there would be a LOT less good broodmares in the world.
> ...


 
Whoa I'm confused? I never said I was an expert or anything like that. It was just my opinion on it, if she wanted to breed her mare. <-- Just like Drumrunner's view. So I don't why your getting so defensive and if i said something to tick you off I'm sorry its just one persons opinion. 

She has great bloodlines a lot like my yearling filly. I'd love to have her in my yard for riding!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I don't see anything that screams "breed me" but there isn't anything terrible about her either. I don't think her age or the changes to her joints would prohibit breeding. Doc O Lena was foundered so bad she could barely walk and she had two foals. You might have heard of them Dry Doc and Smart Little Lena!

I'm kind of the opinion that there are a lot of horses to choose from right now and it would be much cheaper and faster to find one you liked and buy it rather than trying to raise one yourself. It takes much less time and you get to pick the color and the gender.


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## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

well, first off, I really appreciate every1's responses....i love this forum.......I guess i should have elaborated..I was discussing a breeding, and I was concerned for her joints...it take calcium to make a baby......however embyonic transfer is too rich for my blood and probably hers too. I was considering another breeding to Hickory's indian Pep for another foal since the cross turned out great before, but she is older and doesnt have much of a job other than light lessons and trail riding, and keeping the other mares in line lol. I have her on platinum performance to addres joint issues, but I assure you all that I am hardly sold on the idea. she has first and foremost earned her keep, and deserves a comfortable, easy life.


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## trainerunlimited (Jan 26, 2012)

I think if she is still sound enough to ride, she is sound enough to breed, IMO. You can always keep her on great supplements and lay off riding her. I don't see any reason why you shouldn't, if it were something you were aiming to do. With that cross being proven, you know what you would pretty much get in a foal. She has proven herself in her cutting carreer, so I'd go for it if you were of a mind to. From what I understand, the mares who can no longer be ridden in the real world get put to work having babies.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

jbolt said:


> Hi, this is my 17 yr. old cutting mare, and I think she looks awesome, but wanted your opinions....her pedigree can be seen at allbreedpedigree.com/gamble+ona+fanny


This mare has a great set of hocks on her....LOVE the angle and how they line up with the knees. 

About the joint problem....she's 17 years old, she was an athlete being a cutter, of course some arthritis is going to pop up. It's just the way nature is. Anyone on here with a horse in their late teens...there's going to be arthritis as the horse ages. If she's great minded and healthy (besides the arthritis), she might be capable of having one more foal. She's got the bloodlines and the performance herself to back it up. Best thing to do is have a serious talk with your vet.


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## ktrolson (Feb 13, 2009)

I would not breed her because she has too many conformation faults. In fact, right now I wouldn't breed any mare because of the market situation.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Pics of the mare were taken at a bad angle,so not showing her conformation ideally. What I do see is a mare that looks good for her age,She has mild arthritis not a big surprise having been ridden for most of her life. Actually at her age she is sounder than alot of horse many years her junior.I like her overall conformation & she has a decent pedigree.She is not a maiden mare but has been a few years since her last foal,if she is still breeding sound, I would consider breeding her.:wink:


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

She is not an outstanding looking mare and her pedigree is line breeding on Three Bars (not too unusual). All that being said, I normally would tell you to NOT BREED.. however I have one thing in that which would make me take another look.

Was this horse titled in cutting? Does she have real "cow" savvy? Did she do really good, useful, ranch work? If you can say an emphatic YES to all these questions, then I would look at breeding her to a stallion that throws "Cow" and is prepotent in the things she lacks. 

Now, before I get blasted out of the water on this I am going to say something about some things I have learned about horses. Conformation is extremely important. It is. However, RARE is the horse that has real "cow." Sometimes, when you have the work ethic and the temperament and proven "cow" in a breed that was designed to have just that.. you need to think about passing it on. Lots of 'pretty' Quarterhorses out there that wouldn't know what to do with a cow if they tripped over one. That is a shame.

OTOH if she is just a real nice horse that washed out of cutting.. did not really have 'cow' then I would not breed her. 

If I did breed her I would be looking at serious cutting horses with cutting lines.. San Peppy, Mr San Peppy etc. etc. And I would be prepared to prove that foal..


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## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

Elana said:


> She is not an outstanding looking mare and her pedigree is line breeding on Three Bars (not too unusual). All that being said, I normally would tell you to NOT BREED.. however I have one thing in that which would make me take another look.
> 
> Was this horse titled in cutting? Does she have real "cow" savvy? Did she do really good, useful, ranch work? If you can say an emphatic YES to all these questions, then I would look at breeding her to a stallion that throws "Cow" and is prepotent in the things she lacks.
> 
> ...


I am BY FAR a novice cutter and reiner, but my horse is not. she has SO much cow. I have spent several summers as a teenager working ranches and learning to work cattle from a rancher standpoint. she has won money alot for me but I am not someone who is traveling to futurities either. i have done great with everything from team penning(did great) and sorting to team roping(we sucked at it), to barrels and poles and western pleasure(placed a couple times, but never really good at it as she is a firecracker and the judges see her as not relaxed enough). I am in a position where I can pay a small stud fee due to the market and raise a foal. I am not opposed to buying instead of breeding, but I am not sure that I can find the bloodlines I want specifically. Here is a link to the stud I have been considering. It would be her second foal by him. Oswood Stallion Station


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

What does the other foal look like? How is this boy's legs (not calf knee'd I hope?). Is the other foal more like Dad or Mom in looks? Actually I just saw the photo of him standing.. looks good in front.. a little butt high but cutting horses sometimes are. He is a bit posty behind but your mare is NOT. 

He has the right blood lines. If this is for you.. breeding for your own use and possible training in cutting/ranch type work I would do it. I would do it because she has a "cow" and because the stud has the same. 

Like I said.. I am all for breeding the perfcet looking horse. I am. But if you are breeding racing Thoroughbreds and the mare is a stakes winner and from a line of stakes winners and you have a stakes winning stallion that would nick well.. I say go for it. 

Here you have a little horse with Cow and 'tude.. and who has shown up well for that work. A stallion with the right lines (including the Doc Bar line breeding.. and the San Peppy lines).. I think it is worth it. 

Just try to get a look see at her other foal and what he/she is doing.


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## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

I own her first foal, and he is a GEM. he looks more like stud, very baby doll head, good neck, smart as an arab, and catty and cowy, he is in training for reining and he is IMO perfect, I will post pics later


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

Why breed when there are thousands of horses looking for homes, just MO. I like that you love her, but remember you cant recreate her or the foal she has already had. I would keep it at that and find a horse that needs a home.


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## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

no offence, but though I love all my horses dearly, love has little to do with the reason for breeding.

*Mare has good cutting asnd reining confo and bloodlines
* I have every intention of boarding with Trainer on site for up to a year of working cowhorse training
*I own the first foal, and he is a wonderful booy
*Doc Bar this close in a pedigree is hard to find
*Hickory's Indian Pep has NCHA earnings, and has sired money winners, and has the best pedigree match for my mare. Conformation wise, he is strong where she is weak, and vice versa, though neither has GLARING defaults.
*If for some reason it becomes necessary to sell or lease the resulting horse, it will have the breeding and training to easily find a loving caring financially stable owner whether it be bloodstock auction, or private sale.
BTW the reason her first foal was not shown was due to needing a year off as a 2 yr. old for Jumping a 6 foot stud pen, he skinned his rear legs completely dehiding them. he is now perfectly sound, and being used, however he missed out on his 2 and 3 yr old seasons and wasnt sent to a trainer till he was almost 5. He is now a very smart trick horse, trail horse, and team penner, but will only be shown on a local level and as a kids horse because thats what he likes. BTW he was gelded soon after his accident and would have been gelded after training had he not injured himself.

I know this is lengthy, but I do not want people to confuse me with somone who just wants "a piece of my awesome pet to live on", I am keeping the mare for her whole natural life,( she has paid her own board for many years, i can pick it up now) as well as the 6 yr' old.(He is being leased my neighbor as a trail horse for the spring) I plan on keeping the hypothetical foal it's whole life IF the horse is a good solid using fun horse, otherwise I will sell knowing that I made **** sound judgement in the choosing, training, feeding, and general husbandry of my horse to offer him the best chance at a long happy career.


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## Evansk (Dec 22, 2011)

jbolt said:


> no offence, but though I love all my horses dearly, love has little to do with the reason for breeding.
> 
> *Mare has good cutting asnd reining confo and bloodlines
> * I have every intention of boarding with Trainer on site for up to a year of working cowhorse training
> ...


 
^-- Jbolt , I agree with your post. I know I said not to breed her but thats ones opinion, and Kevinshorse(?) Maybe a great point. Your reasons for wanting to breed her are very well thought though  I don't know where the other posters thought you were breeding for a "part of your mare", cause you never once said that in your posts. I also looked at the stallion link and hes gorgeous! Nice cow bloodlines He has a nice performance record, and the fact that your ready to accept the foal no matter how it turns out.

Your definitely not thinking this half-assed, very well thought out. 

I think for her joint problems or arthritist , you could add a simple glucosamine supplement to help with that, but i'm sure you know that already 

Best of luck with your mare (and foal if you decide to breed)


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## missnashvilletime (Dec 20, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> I don't see anything that screams "breed me" but there isn't anything terrible about her either. I don't think her age or the changes to her joints would prohibit breeding. Doc O Lena was foundered so bad she could barely walk and she had two foals. You might have heard of them Dry Doc and Smart Little Lena!
> 
> I'm kind of the opinion that there are a lot of horses to choose from right now and it would be much cheaper and faster to find one you liked and buy it rather than trying to raise one yourself. It takes much less time and you get to pick the color and the gender.


This is more just a small correction, and I'm sorry if it offends anyone but POCO LENA was the mare that foundered and the two foals were DOC O LENA and DRY DOC. Sorry, just had to mention that.


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## missnashvilletime (Dec 20, 2011)

This is the pedigree of the most recent horse I bought Impressiveking Olena Quarter Horse 
I paid $600 for him, he has some pretty good lines and I didn't have to worry about the stud fee, vet bills, paying his feed until he was almost two, etc. 
OTOH, we also had a very nice filly born to us last April too, so it's really up to you. With the market how it is you can go find good bloodlines and confo for a cheap price, or you can breed your mare and roll the dice. Whichever you choose, I wish you luck.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

As I said first.. with cutting horses the genetics count. I do not see weak genetics here. 

You are not breeding or buying "just a horse." It sounds like you are setting a foal on the ground that might make NCHA money. When you are breeding with a goal like this, it is much more business oriented. 

It is like breeding Thoroughbred race horses. You are probably going to have to breed a winner unless you have thousands (sometimes millions) to buy one that is winning. 

It is unlikely for you to pick up a cheap claimer and have him suddenly start winning stakes races or allowance races. It may be more likely to pick up a cheap horse that has cow.. but you may have to go through a few. The mare you have has Cow and the Sire has Cow.. and both have shown talent to do the job.. won money and so forth. 

Just be sure to send me photos of the foal!!!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

She doesn't stand out as spectacular and I'm seeing nothing seriously wrong with her. She is a candidate for developing arthritis but it doesn't appear to be a problem yet. Your vet can provide the best answer regarding breeding her, regarding her age and health. If you are considering breeding her with the intention of keeping the foal, then go for it.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

missnashvilletime said:


> This is more just a small correction, and I'm sorry if it offends anyone but POCO LENA was the mare that foundered and the two foals were DOC O LENA and DRY DOC. Sorry, just had to mention that.


You're absolutely right! I realized that after it was too late to edit and the thread had moved on.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

missnashvilletime said:


> This is the pedigree of the most recent horse I bought Impressiveking Olena Quarter Horse
> I paid $600 for him, he has some pretty good lines and I didn't have to worry about the stud fee, vet bills, paying his feed until he was almost two, etc. ...


I can't remember if you have ever stated, but what is his HYPP status? ETA Scratch that google just brought up that you did. I changes allbreed to show that so it quits getting asked. 



OP - I really like the look of your mare and I agree with the others who have said you have vaild/_good_ reasons to breed.


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## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> I can't remember if you have ever stated, but what is his HYPP status? ETA Scratch that google just brought up that you did. I changes allbreed to show that so it quits getting asked.
> 
> 
> 
> OP - I really like the look of your mare and I agree with the others who have said you have vaild/_good_ reasons to breed.


Yes, I had her tested because she has one poco bueno line close enough to matter, and also, Oswood Stallion Station demands testing of mares that may be carriers.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Oh you have done your homework well! Good for you! 

Like I said.. hope she catches and WE WANTY PHOTOS OF THE RESULTS!~


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## Zada2011 (Mar 16, 2010)

kevinshorses said:


> I don't see anything that screams "breed me" but there isn't anything terrible about her either. I don't think her age or the changes to her joints would prohibit breeding. Doc O Lena was foundered so bad she could barely walk and she had two foals. You might have heard of them Dry Doc and Smart Little Lena!
> 
> I'm kind of the opinion that there are a lot of horses to choose from right now and it would be much cheaper and faster to find one you liked and buy it rather than trying to raise one yourself. It takes much less time and you get to pick the color and the gender.


Evidently you're mixing up your quarter horses. Poco Lena was the mother of Doc O Lena and Dry Doc. Her founder was made so horrid because of an incident where her previous owner had died and the hauler left the horses in a trailer, with no food in water in the desert. Doc O Lena sired sons like Smart Little Lena and Tap O Lena. 

As for the mare, she has very good cutting lines, and if her resulting foal was a good one, I'd say that it wouldn't hurt to breed her if you breed her to a stud with cow sense and nice cutting lines. 

Notable horses I saw in her lines were Doc O Lena, King and Peppy. 

So she's got some good lines for breeding, and even though foals take a long time to raise, it's always rewarding to start them from the ground up, and see them grow. That way you always know what the horse has done and been through. The choice is yours but I'd say it'd be worth a try.


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