# Western cinch question



## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I guess I can skip the backstory. My question is, why do Western cinches have holes if everyone just ties them instead of using the holes? What's the point? And why DOES everyone tie them?


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Depends on the person you are talking to and the area you are in. When I was in TX and around those that rode western or I was using a western saddle on one of my mares I tied. That was what I was taught and that was how it was done. I am rarely around western riders here but when I have been they buckle. Same as the tie it locks the cinch in place. Takes practice to get either comfortable and safe. Done correctly either work. Difference would be you can use a holed and tie but you cannot use one with holes on a buckle.


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## mkmurphy81 (May 8, 2015)

I tie most of my western saddles, but I have one that leaves am uncomfortable lump under my leg when it's tied. That one gets buckled. I prefer them tied because I can adjust them as much as I want to instead of having to reach the next hole. However, if the ring is in the wrong place compared to the fender, it's nice to have the option of buckling.


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## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi AC

A western cinch/girth/latigo (? whatever) leather strap is almost always sold with punched holes because not everybody ties them off, and not having the holes would preclude using them with a buckle-type cinch w/o additional work. In fact, in our trail riding club I see riders use the buckle about 2:1 over simply tying, and many have gone to a "Y" rigging instead of a traditional rear cinch.
I will comment that tying the strap allows you to get just the right tension whereas using a buckle you have to pick the closest hole (or punch a new one).
I use a "Y" rigging on my western/endurance saddles, with a Weaver Leather "Smart Cinch" (the "Airflex Roper" model for the past several years; highly recommended), and never tie the leather strap. I do punch a couple of intermediate holes between the ones provided to allow a more precise adjustment.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I don't know anyone who ties. All buckle. Even roping. Or riding green horses.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

How me it depends on what saddle I am riding. 

On my cowhorse saddle it has in skirt rigging so I prefer to use the tongue buckle on the cinch so there isn't a lump or anything for my stirrup leathers to get hung up on for smooth full range.

My cowboy saddle has a drop plate rigging. I rarely use the tongue buckle on the cinch. I method I use isn't the farmer knot most people use when tying their latigo. It works well, even roping which freaks people out who have never seen or used it.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I buckle 95% of the time. My saddle have in-skirt or drop-plate rigging, and a knot sits right under my leg. The buckle is flat, secure, and safe if you use a leather latigo and tighten it properly.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I always did both. back when I rode Western.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

I have the leather latigo and buckle my cinch. Haven't tied a western cinch in many years. 

Everyone one I ride with that's western buckles cinch.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

We also delved into latigos........knot vs. buckles, leather vs. nylon, in this thread:


https://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/latigo-off-billet-help-811161/


I personally have one saddle with dropped rigging that I use a buckle with. And one saddle with the rigging on the tree that I use the knot. The knot was the first way I learned, and I like that I don't have to worry about where the holes are. But with the dropped rigging I like less bulk under my leg. Anyway, check out the thread above.


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

I tie. That's how my dad taught me as a kid, and my trainer taught me as an adult. I know other people who buckle.

They are both correct and safe. Buckling reduces the bulk under the leg in a close contact saddle. I think tying is easier to adjust when tightening.

Do what makes sense to you.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

ACinATX said:


> I guess I can skip the backstory. My question is, why do Western cinches have holes if everyone just ties them instead of using the holes? What's the point? And why DOES everyone tie them?



I tie almost all the time.


But not everyone does. And that's why there are holes present.


There is almost always more than 1 way to do things.


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## txgirl (Jul 9, 2010)

I tie when there are not enough holes to buckle! My little Arab mare usually has to be tied.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

ACinATX said:


> I guess I can skip the backstory. My question is, why do Western cinches have holes if everyone just ties them instead of using the holes? What's the point? And why DOES everyone tie them?



I am going to assume you mean the latigo or tie strap, not the cinch per se. Two different items that are used in conjunction with one another.



Some people use the holes like buckling a belt. Some of us use both the Texas T knot AND the holes/buckle tongue - I'm one, but the buckle/tongue/hole process really isn't a problem... I can ride with or without it and I'm not worried about losing the tension in the cinch. I know some people that have cinches that have no tongue on the buckle. It's literally just a big dee ring. All they do is whip a Texas T into it and roll on down the road. I've done this myself, but prefer the belt and suspenders method.



So, from a manufacturers POV, there's no point making two different types of the same tie strap - one with and one without holes. Just put holes in it, and let your customers use them as they prefer.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Buckling is easier to tighten from the saddle, too. You can tighten a knot while in the saddle, but it takes two hands. With the buckle, you just reach down, tighten, make sure the buckle tongue is through the hole, then tug the top loop of latigo to 'set' the buckle. If you have difficulty mounting, it's handy to know how to do, especially when trail riding.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Cedar & Salty said:


> *I tie. That's how my dad taught me as a kid*



My husband and all his cowboy buddies were raised to tie off. So, flash forward to college and both my husband and his best friend found themselves needing to fill a final semester with basket weaving courses... so these two honyocks chose Equestrian 101 as one of those classes.


They show up Day 1, instructor, who I recently found out really was an idiot, basically hands everyone a horse and tells them to have at it... just to tell them how they all did it wrong and didn't know what they were doing. 


EXCEPT my husband and his friend DID know how to saddle a horse... so they have their horses cinched up and ready, stirrups let out and popped so they're the right length, and here she comes. Marches up. Begins berating them for using the knot. I mean blistering their hide in front of the rest of the students.


She asks: And just how do you think you're going to get that saddle off this horse in case that horse blows up and you need to get the saddle off!?

My husband drawls out: If your donated lesson horse blows up on me, wearing a 400.00 donated saddle, that horse can have the saddle. I'm not risking my life or getting hurt to get it off this horse... or any other. 



She told them to both leave her class immediately.


They returned on Wednesday, grinning like possums eating grapes. She leads out an OTTB and a blown up barrel horse for them. They spent the entire semester riding the rust off those two horses. She never spoke to them again unless she had to, and they both got As.


Found out from my camping friend that she took the same class, under the instructor, but one semester later than Hubs and his friend. She said that instructor finally quit showing up, but would leave notes for her and one other punchy kid to show the students how to do xyz... in essence, teach her class for her. That was that instructors last semester there.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

SilverMaple said:


> Buckling is easier to tighten from the saddle, too. You can tighten a knot while in the saddle, but it takes two hands. With the buckle, you just reach down, tighten, make sure the buckle tongue is through the hole, then tug the top loop of latigo to 'set' the buckle. If you have difficulty mounting, it's handy to know how to do, especially when trail riding.



I can do either from the saddle with my left hand. The knot is no problem (must be the nylon latigo?) and if anything it is easier to reach. Sometimes, if the cinch isn't very long, it is hard to reach that buckle tongue! Especially if the buckle tongue is the type to want to flop around loosely. (Like the Weaver Jeremiah Watt one that was oh-so-pretty but I didn't like how loose the tongue was. Here you are, trying to tighten it from the saddle and you loose the tongue. Then you pray horsie is patient and doesn't go anywhere while you are in such a vulnerable position.)

Does anyone else dislike all the fancy roller buckles and such the put on cinches nowadays? I have both the fancy roller type (like professional's choice) and some less fancy ones with normal buckles and I vastly prefer the normal buckles. I find the roller buckles really don't really tighten the cinch any better, just sort of create slack. Your latigo still needs to do the work of sliding over itself. They use the fancy buckles as a selling point but I like the plain ones better.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

> Does anyone else dislike all the fancy roller buckles and such the put on cinches nowadays? I have both the fancy roller type (like professional's choice) and some less fancy ones with normal buckles and I vastly prefer the normal buckles. I find the roller buckles really don't really tighten the cinch any better, just sort of create slack. Your latigo still needs to do the work of sliding over itself. They use the fancy buckles as a selling point but I like the plain ones better.


Yes, I agree. 
When they first came out I bought one and ended up tossing it. It pinched skin and pulled hair.

Last summer I bought a Classic Equine(pictured with my cowhorse saddle above) one because they were on sale. It isn't horrible but I don't see the big appeal. I'd just assume having the plain round ring rings with or without the buckle tongue. 

I have cinches with the squared off rings, I think a picture of one is in my previous post here. But if the cinch and the latigo dont line up perfectly with the rigging the squared rings tend wear out my latigo faster.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Yes, I agree.
> When they first came out I bought one and ended up tossing it. It pinched skin and pulled hair.
> 
> Last summer I bought a Classic Equine(pictured with my cowhorse saddle above) one because they were on sale. It isn't horrible but I don't see the big appeal. I'd just assume having the plain round ring rings with or without the buckle tongue.
> ...



I just went and re-looked at your photos on page 1. I have a couple of the Classic Equine/Professional's Choice ones too. I have never owned one with a buckle like the second one........that is very interesting! But it seems like there is a lot of interest in keeping them "square." I'm not convinced that is needed because even if it pulls at an angle, I think that is just a result of the horse/saddle conformation and not really a deal breaker. My favorite types of buckles are flat but round, like this:










I like the nylon center too. I have always been a bit afraid of a leather center because it seems like it would gall......although everyone tells me otherwise. So that is pretty much my favorite style of cinch (mohair). This would be great too:








Square but not drastically so. 

This is the one with the loose tongue. As much as I loved the "look" and the mohair, I gave this away on a saddle I sold. This tongue will flop straight down if you try to tighten it from the saddle.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I forgot to mention......
One of the things I don't like about the roller buckle on a cinch like this:








Is that I like to reverse my cinches once in a while for even wear. I don't know if that's necessary, I but I heard it is good to do it. With the roller buckle above, if you stick your off billet through there, it is a snugger fit and makes it stick out at an angle that can catch your foot in an annoying way. I don't care so much about where the billet keeper is because I tend not to use them anyway. But I don't like using the off-billet through the roller buckle. I guess most people don't reverse them. And I really don't know if it's necessary, but I do it once in a while anyway.


Anyone else reverse your cinches? Do you think it does anything to help them last?


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

trailhorserider said:


> I can do either from the saddle with my left hand. The knot is no problem (*must be the nylon latigo?*) and if anything it is easier to reach. Sometimes, if the cinch isn't very long, it is hard to reach that buckle tongue! Especially if the buckle tongue is the type to want to flop around loosely. (Like the Weaver Jeremiah Watt one that was oh-so-pretty but I didn't like how loose the tongue was. Here you are, trying to tighten it from the saddle and you loose the tongue. Then you pray horsie is patient and doesn't go anywhere while you are in such a vulnerable position.)
> 
> *Does anyone else dislike all the fancy roller buckles and such the put on cinches nowadays?* I have both the fancy roller type (like professional's choice) and some less fancy ones with normal buckles and I vastly prefer the normal buckles. I find the roller buckles really don't really tighten the cinch any better, just sort of create slack. Your latigo still needs to do the work of sliding over itself. They use the fancy buckles as a selling point but I like the plain ones better.



I ride with synthetic latigos... never have a problem tightening from the saddle. I still prefer to do it from the ground, but yeah. The nylon doesn't have a problem with 'slip' when you're working it from the saddle.


Not a fan of the roller buckles. They will ALWAYS wear out, somehow they will 'spread' at the seam, or a corner at the seam will curl up - why IDK, and they rust when the rest of the hardware hasn't... you get hair stuck in them... just.... no. Nice idea, but I personally feel kinda meh about them. Also prefer the plain ones - I'd rather have the D type with no tongue than the roller types.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Like the fleece cinches easy to wash throw them in washing machine,with saddle blankets. 

Hate the roller buckle cinches won't buy a cinches with one. Also not a fan of mohair cinches either. Quit using mohair cinches my horses didn't like them. 

Local tack shop re sold the mohair cinches I had they were in good shape. Used 5 times then was done with them. Never again would I by mohair cinches...

Picture of cinches I buy have 4 two are brand new yet.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

trailhorserider said:


> I forgot to mention......
> One of the things I don't like about the roller buckle on a cinch like this:
> 
> 
> ...


I agree I like to be able to reverse them too.

That is the exact cinch I bought because it was on sale. The roller didn't seem to be as bad as the one I bought years ago(Weaver Smart Cinch?). But I wouldn't want the roller on the off side either.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

It's interesting to see what everyone likes/dislikes and why. Mohair is my favorite. Never had a horse complain. But I would use fleece over neoprene. And felt over fleece. Mainly because I hate how fleece saddle pads gum up and never come clean and fluffy again. So I would be afraid fleece cinches would do the same thing.


My very first cinches were felt lined and I liked them a lot until I discovered mohair. Luckily I never bought neoprene myself, but I have seen them gall neighbor's horses. Sometimes you are grateful for other people's mistakes because you can learn without risking your own money.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

This is what I used to use back-in-the-day, about 20 years ago: 











But mohair washes so easy and has never rubbed my horses and has a little give. The felt had a little tendency to bunch behind the elbow on rotund horses. But I still had good luck with them, no real problems.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Many years ago when I first started to ride western you always tied there were no buckles in this area, the drawback with that for me was the lump from the tie just under your leg, so years later when I got a western saddle and saw that they could be buckled I thought that was a good idea.
I don't ride much in a western saddle but for trail riding and taking a lot of stuff along, the western saddle is good and I used the buckle and thought "this is good, no lump under the leg.
I did up the buckle and pulled on the loop to secure it well then put the long end up through the loop or the back buckle to secure it out of the way. Later as I was trotting along I leaned over to check and found the cinch had come undone. I stopped and redid the cinch by tying it. I don't know, maybe the tongue was not long enough or pulling the end of the strap up to secure it out of the way


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## Bombproof (May 20, 2015)

Growing up in rural Oklahoma, we were all self-taught cowboys and everyone tied the latigo so that's what I learned to do. It still feels more secure to me than buckling. That's probably just in my mind and I've done it both ways, but if I'm going to be on a steep trail or I'm concerned about saddle slippage I still tie it.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

I'll tie with nylon latigos. The ones I've had have always had holes approximately 9 miles apart and I don't care to have to burn new ones so I just tie them. Nylon latigos tied don't make a huge lump under your leg either, which is nice. Leather latigos I prefer to buckle, though I have tied a few when the hole I needed wasn't available and I didn't have a hole punch or knife handy. When I tie though, I always use a cinch without a buckle. If you tie and the buckle tongue is loose, if the horse comes down on his side you can theoretically spear him in the ribs with that tongue. It's an exceedingly long shot, but it could happen. So if a buckle has a tongue, it gets used. There is a way to tie down below, at the buckle, to secure a loose tongue, but in my experience the Texas T is easier, faster and more secure, so I don't generally tie down low. 

For cinches, I only like a roller buckle if it's the kind with a separation between the two wraps of latigo. With a single roller, it's basically pointless as others have said since you're still just pulling latigo against itself. I like Smart Cinches or something similar, with two areas of wrap for your latigo, and I will only make two wraps before buckling/tying and running the excess through the latigo keeper on my saddle. if it's a lot of excess, I'll run to the latigo keeper, then under my fender to the flank cinch ring and then run through that so the excess latigo isn't getting in the way of my leg. I don't like to cut my latigos since I ride a large variety of horses and frequently need more footage down below. 

-- Kai


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I hate roller buckles. They negate the safety of a leather latigo by allowing it to slip too easily, and they are made for weak people to overtighten their cinch. Plus they catch hair, sweat, and grime and gum up. No thanks. 

All my cinches but one are mohair. They breathe, are comfortable for the horse, and clean easily. They last forever if you take care of them. I have one fleece one I keep around for a TB mare I sometimes ride who is so huge she takes a longer cinch than is usually available, and this one fits her. I refuse to use nylon latigos after seeing a few wrecks that could have been avoided by using leather, plus I'm a traditionalist and think nylon just plain looks tacky. 

If you have a buckle cinch and always tie, cut the tongue of the buckle off. Like Kaifyre says, you can spear the horse or your leg if the horse falls and that tongue is flopping around.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

SilverMaple said:


> I hate roller buckles. They negate the safety of a leather latigo by allowing it to slip too easily, and they are made for weak people to overtighten their cinch. Plus they catch hair, sweat, and grime and gum up. No thanks.
> 
> All my cinches but one are mohair. They breathe, are comfortable for the horse, and clean easily. They last forever if you take care of them. I have one fleece one I keep around for a TB mare I sometimes ride who is so huge she takes a longer cinch than is usually available, and this one fits her. I refuse to use nylon latigos after seeing a few wrecks that could have been avoided by using leather, plus I'm a traditionalist and think nylon just plain looks tacky.
> 
> *If you have a buckle cinch and always tie, cut the tongue of the buckle off. Like Kaifyre says, you can spear the horse or your leg if the horse falls and that tongue is flopping around.*



Unless you always tie AND buckle. I'm a belt and suspenders kinda girl. Otherwise, yeah, that tongue hanging out just looks like an accident looking for a place to happen.


And I swear, I swear, I'm not trying to be argumentative... I am genuinely curious: I have never seen a wreck caused solely because of a synthetic latigo being used when the rest of the rigging is good. I've seen off billets break and girth hobbles break and stirrup hobbles break... and wrecks happen... but not because of a nylon latigo. 



What precisely are folks doing that it happens? Just using the buckle and not tying off? Because if the later, I can kinda see how that would happen - I don't trust the buckle with a nylon tie strap and not tying off... it's just not thick enough, IMO, to maybe not come undone, whereas leather is substantial enough in thickness and doesn't have much slip to it, so it seems like it wouldn't do that... but I'm not sure. Only one of ours has a leather latigo, and that's my daughter's big honkin' Billy Cook which I refuse to ride because it weighs so dang much.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Both were nylon latigos where the buckle came loose. If it happens with a leather latigo, the cinch will usually stay tight or loosen slowly enough you realize the problem before you end up under the horse. Nylon slips so easily it will work loose fast. 

Another wreck was a tied-on roper whose horse slipped and fell and was being dragged by an angry bull. By the time someone got in there and cut the rope, the horse was pretty torn up. Several of the cowboys present said they use leather latigos because leather will break before the horse does if you get in a big-enough wreck. Two said they'd had the same thing happen and those leather latigos saved not only their saddle, but a good horse. I attended an outfitting weekend course once, and they said the first thing is to throw away any nylon latigos on your pack outfits and saddle horses, and replace them with good leather, because they will NOT break when they shouldn't, but WILL break if they need to, unlike nylon, which won't break when it should, but has the ability to dry-rot in the sunlight and break when you least expect it to-- like halfway across a shale slide. Quite a few of the draft horse guys around here went back to leather harness after having horses hurt in wrecks with nylon harness because it won't break if it needs to.

When I worked at a guest ranch, we spent one rainy Tuesday just after I was hired switching the nylon latigos out for leather after a guest tried to retie her cinch knot without asking for help and did it wrong, leading to her and her saddle ending up on the ground beside her horse. Saddling over 100 horses a day for several years, and using only the buckle on most of them (cinches were checked before the rider mounted, again before leaving the corral, and a third time 10 minutes into the ride) we never once had one come loose. The previous season using nylon, they'd had 3 or 4 come loose.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

@SilverMaple - Thank you for explaining. Those do all sound like situations where nylon would suck.


Which makes me wonder if one of those seat belt cutting tools my husband has with his fire and rescue gear would be a handy thing to keep around, since we do use nylon.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

You want a sharp, serrated blade on a knife to cut nylon (halters, rope, etc.) . I keep one on my belt when working around the barn and riding; either a simple knife or a leatherman tool with the blade kept super sharp.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

SilverMaple said:


> You want a sharp, serrated blade on a knife to cut nylon (halters, rope, etc.) . I keep one on my belt when working around the barn and riding; either a simple knife or a leatherman tool with the blade kept super sharp.



This is what I had in mind to keep handy.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I have my doubts about a leather latigo tearing in an emergency. I once saw a friend's horse step through her leather roping reins. The reins were tied on with water loops and thin strips of leather (shoe-lace thickness) in the typical way. The horse got scared and started backing up in a freaked out manner and the leather ties never broke. Since there was a bit in his mouth, I guess you could say he wasn't putting as much pressure on the reins as he might of otherwise......but still, I was shocked the horse could back up with his leg tight through the reins and not have the ties break.


I've had other similar instances where the leather ties never broke. So if those shoe-lace strips of leather are that tough, I can't imagine a horse ripping a latigo unless it was already rotten.


The instances of the buckle coming undone with the nylon latigos sound more like newbies not knowing what they doing rather than a fault of the latigo. My luck could run out, but I haven't had a nylon buckled latigo come undone yet. It's very important to pull it tight against the tongue.


I'm having a little trouble picturing how a horse would get speared with the loose buckle tongue if he fell. A rider's leg, yes, I could see that. But I'm not sure how the tongue would get back around into the horse? Has that actually happened that we know of?


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Hey guys, I thought I would share this video from Corriente on how to tie a good knot for securing the latigo to your rigging as some of you may not know this. (I only discovered this last year.) This is a nice little secure knot, and since we were talking about nylon possibly working loose (albeit at the buckle end), this is an especially good knot for nylon latigos.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

@trailhorserider I've seen a horse rear up and come down sideways with a tied buckle and loose tongue. It was a long enough tongue that the horse's weight bent it around and he had a hole in his side when he came back up. Vet said the hole was an inch deep. This was years ago, when cinches tended to have longer tongues, so perhaps wouldn't happen nowadays … I sincerely doubt one of my short blunt Smart Cinch tongues could gore a horse … but after seeing that, I'm no in any hurry to find out, so I always either tie the tongue down, buckle it, or use a tongueless cinch.

-- Kai


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