# She wont stop putting her tongue over the bit



## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

So my little green Morgan mare has a habit I just discovered today. She loves and I mean loves to put her tongue over the bit. She used to be ridden in a full cheek snaffle and a D ring snaffle, she put her tongue over these (I was just told today), but when I bought her I discovered she had a low pallet, so I switched to a mullen mouth egg but bit. She is very nice is this bit.... On the ground. Once ontop of her, she played with it until she could get her tongue over it, then once she got her tongue over it, she kept opening her mouth and stuff because of course that couldn't be comfortable. I got off, fixed it. I tried dropping the bit a little lower, it was to low, she wouldn't stop playing with the bit. So I put it up one more then it usually is, and that was to high. So I returned it to the original placement, got back on. Then she kept trying to do it, and everytime I asked her to turn she shook her head (like she had bugs on her but didn't lol). So I had my mom sit on her and ride her while I lunged her so I could see it from the ground. She didn't do it then. But after speaking with the prev. owners. This is her habit. I don't know what to do at the moment. I don't want to put her in a bitless bridle, or anything like that. That really isn't a option if I can avoid it. She is also going to be a western and english horse. But western first.. :/ Help?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

For horses with a bad habit of doing that, I've found that using a ported bit seems to help because they _can't_ get their tongue over it. Eventually, they just give up trying, IME.

I really like bits like these because they are ported...but they have the rings at the mouth so you can use it as a "snaffle" during training. Once the horse has progressed in their training enough, you simply move your reins down to the bottom rings and you're good to go.
Amazon.com: Coronet Copper Wide Port Reiner Horse Bit, 5-Inch: Sports & Outdoors


Amazon.com: Abetta Half Breed Sweetwater Bit - Stainless Steel - 5": Sports & Outdoors


I really wish I could find one with a sweetwater port (like pictured in both above) that also had a roller and billy allen mouth, but this is about as close as I've found to that without going custom
Amazon.com: Abetta Elbow Port Training Bit - Blued Steel - 5": Sports & Outdoors


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## redhorse86 (Nov 18, 2012)

What about trying a flash noseband? She might not be able to get the tongue over the bit if she can't open her mouth wide enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

redhorse86 said:


> What about trying a flash noseband? She might not be able to get the tongue over the bit if she can't open her mouth wide enough.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe, but if she does and cant fix it she may freak out, which would be bad. And I am trying to figure out how silly I would look with that on a western horse, until she goes english which wont be soon.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If it were me, I'd get the bit out of the way of her tongue rather than force her mouth shut. Another option would be a bit with a roller...my mare does her best in either a ported bit, or one with a roller. If she has neither, she'll shift the bit around, chew on it, shift it some more. She simply fusses less with a port, and she seems content to play gently with a roller instead of shoving the whole bit around.

Roller:










Or possibly something like this:










For a port, the ones smrobs gave are hard to beat..and I've spent enough trying to know!


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

smrobs said:


> For horses with a bad habit of doing that, I've found that using a ported bit seems to help because they _can't_ get their tongue over it. Eventually, they just give up trying, IME.
> 
> I really like bits like these because they are ported...but they have the rings at the mouth so you can use it as a "snaffle" during training. Once the horse has progressed in their training enough, you simply move your reins down to the bottom rings and you're good to go.
> Amazon.com: Coronet Copper Wide Port Reiner Horse Bit, 5-Inch: Sports & Outdoors
> ...


But with shanks, I feel this would be to much, since she is very very green.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

bsms said:


> If it were me, I'd get the bit out of the way of her tongue rather than force her mouth shut. Another option would be a bit with a roller...my mare does her best in either a ported bit, or one with a roller. If she has neither, she'll shift the bit around, chew on it, shift it some more. She simply fusses less with a port, and she seems content to play gently with a roller instead of shoving the whole bit around.
> 
> Roller:
> 
> ...


Maybe, how would this work on a horse who cant be ridden in a joint bit? Low pallet and it slams into the roof of her mouth.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Larissa said:


> But with shanks, I feel this would be to much, since she is very very green.


Yes, if you were to put your reins on the bottom rings, it would be too much for her.

However, if you put your reins on the rings here (where the red arrow points), then they function _exactly_ like a snaffle bit. There is no leverage and nothing to confuse her. I've used bits like that on a horse on their second or third ride with no problems at all.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The one on top has a mouthpiece like this Jr Cow Horse that I've used a lot. It would use very little room:










And in fact, you can use the Jr Cow Horse as a snaffle by attaching the reins to the mouthpiece. As a curb, the short shanks keep pressures low. I've used it with Mia like a snaffle several times.

They also make what are essentially mullens with a roller. Mine arrived today, and I started a thread. The single ride so far doesn't give me much to relate:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-reviews/review-greg-darnall-billy-allen-snaffle-376441/

Just eyeballing it, it looks to me like a mullen takes up a fair bit of room. However, they angle the pressure flatter on the bars than a single-joint snaffle, and much flatter than a double joint snaffle, so the improved behavior may come from where the pressure is applied in the mouth.

As this X-ray shows, a double jointed snaffle can but a LOT of pressure on the tongue, and I've read that a lot of horses fussing with the bit are really trying to relieve pressure on their tongue:


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

For a western horse I'd try smorbs idea. However, I don't think a flash is a bad idea and she's green. She doesn't know or care if she's an English horse or a Western horse.

I also think trail and error for a better bit may be good, if you think it at all may be from a dislike of the bit (and plenty of green horse need to get used to the bit even if they like the bit itself)


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I LOVE the Mylar bits for horses that do not like tongue pressure or get their tongues over the bit.

When viewed from above, these bits also have a curved mouth that keeps them off of the horse's tongue.








I'll bet she would do just fine in a bit like this. 

I really like the shank bits with the bushing that lets you ride them 2 handed, but for a Greenie, I would like the Dee bit like pictured.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

I was just speaking with a trainer who is local and a family friend of mine. She says she seems to have multiple things going on, some holes in training. And that a good bet would be to take her back to ground work, fix any and all holes there. But make her wear her bridle a lot. With no reins, and not when eating. And she will figure out that putting her tongue over it is very uncomfortable and there isnt a reward for it. Along with continuing to lunge her, and ground drive her often. She said this would be a good start. Im willing to put the time in. And because numerous bits have been tried on her and she does this, I would rather not switch bits to cover the problem, but to actually try to solve the problem.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

If a horse does not like tongue pressure and you don't switch them into a comfortable bit, it is like forcing a person wear shoes that do not fit. It is not 'switching bits to cover a problem'. It is doubtful that anyone has ever put a bit on her that keeps pressure off of her tongue.

I discovered this years ago and had 2 bits hand-made that kept the bit off of horses' tongues. It made the difference between having a horse that was competitive in the show ring or having a horse that did not even make a decent saddle horse to ride around the pasture. Now, there has been so much improvement in the designing of bits, that one can buy a bit that works as well as a hand-made $300.00 bit on about any horse. 

Everyone here knows that I do not accommodate any crap from a spoiled horse, but I will do anything to make a horse's mouth comfortable with the bit I put in it since I expect the very best responses possible from the horse. It is the least I can do. 

Some corners I will cut. Making sure that I have a comfortable bit on a horse is not one of them.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

She is fine with this bit, the pressure from it. Until you are riding her. That is where the problem starts, so I believe it is nervousness more then discomfort. She ground drives fine in it, but under saddle. She starts to fuss with it.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

She fusses even with a loose rein?

Then I'd go the flash/port route. Dos omething so she CAN't get her toungue over.

My Icelandic used to _really_ mouth the bit (not a green horse ridden in the mild bit she came in and her bridle has a drop noseband. It got really annoying so I did the drop noseband relatively tight (not absurdly just more than the norm) once or twice and she hasn't done it since. She is happy with the bit and will mouth it in a normal fashion. Sometimes you just need to break the habit.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Yogiwick, if going back and me personally doing all her ground work and trying to find and fix any and all holes doesn't work I will. She seems to forget to yield to pressure under saddle as well. So thats another reason I am going to search for holes


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Good place to start.

(Not saying to do exactly what I did, just giving an example of a similar situation. However my mare is not green and I was able to rule out a lot of other factors you can't (I know she likes the bit, I know she responds well to xyz with the bit etc))


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

A flash noseband will _never _stop a horse getting its tongue over the bit. Try shutting your mouth with teeth clamped and move your tongue around, you can still move it freely, so can a horse! 
I like the Myler ported bits and found them very effective.


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## amigoboy (Feb 14, 2014)

Have had this up before.
Dale Myler #1 interview - YouTube
It´s a series.


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## amigoboy (Feb 14, 2014)

Larissa said:


> So my little green Morgan mare has a habit I just discovered today. She loves and I mean loves to put her tongue over the bit. She used to be ridden in a full cheek snaffle and a D ring snaffle, she put her tongue over these (I was just told today), but when I bought her I discovered she had a low pallet, so I switched to a mullen mouth egg but bit. She is very nice is this bit.... On the ground. Once ontop of her, she played with it until she could get her tongue over it, then once she got her tongue over it, she kept opening her mouth and stuff because of course that couldn't be comfortable. I got off, fixed it. I tried dropping the bit a little lower, it was to low, she wouldn't stop playing with the bit. So I put it up one more then it usually is, and that was to high. So I returned it to the original placement, got back on. Then she kept trying to do it, and everytime I asked her to turn she shook her head (like she had bugs on her but didn't lol). So I had my mom sit on her and ride her while I lunged her so I could see it from the ground. She didn't do it then. But after speaking with the prev. owners. This is her habit. I don't know what to do at the moment. I don't want to put her in a bitless bridle, or anything like that. That really isn't a option if I can avoid it. She is also going to be a western and english horse. But western first.. :/ Help?





Cherie said:


> I LOVE the Mylar bits for horses that do not like tongue pressure or get their tongues over the bit.
> 
> When viewed from above, these bits also have a curved mouth that keeps them off of the horse's tongue.
> 
> ...


Excalent bits! Have used them for years. Imarkt differance when tried to go over to another straight port bit, horses started working the toungh, dribbling and fighting, as soon as I got the bridle over the ears they couldnt spit the dern things out fast enough.

Billy Allen and a couple of others have the same desighn.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Check her back. If she is uncomfortable that may be how she is expressing it. She didn't fuss when your mother was on. Was she bareback or saddle? Is she lighter than you. Perhaps she was more balanced and not creating one-sided pressure.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

One bit I really like for a number of reasons is the so-called Spanish Snaffle AKA Port-Mouthed Kimblewick, which essentially has a mouthpiece like a Port-Mouthed Pelham and slotted D-rings so you can set the level of curb action you want between very mild and mild. We used that on a horse who habitually got his tongue over snaffles (wasn't really comfortable in snaffles) and he was really happy working with that bit. Horses and bits can be a pretty individual thing, dependent on both horse and rider. The most important thing is to have something that's not irritating to your horse (not pinching the lips or too hard on the bars of the mouth or digging into the roof of the mouth or just an uncomfortable shape for a particular horse's mouth), and which allows you to communicate well and in a nuanced way.

Some horses are happier bitless (halter, bosal, hackmore, etc etc), which can be just fine especially for trails, pleasure riding etc. Sometimes that's just the way it is, often that's because people's hands aren't quite as soft with bits as they should be.

The best book I personally ever read on the subject of bits was by the late Australian horseman Tom Roberts, called "Horse Control and the Bit." It's a really informative, intelligent read studded with anecdotes and case studies, which also debunks quite a few bit myths. Although now out of print, Tom Roberts books can still be occasionally found on e-bay etc. I've read a lot of horse books in my time but his are amongst my all-time favourites for training horses, riding horses, understanding horses and getting the right gear for a particular horse to be comfortable.

Speaking great horse books, I also recently read "_Horse Watch_ - What it is to be Equine" by Marthe Kiley-Worthington and thought that was a really interesting, very detailed book well worth recommending to others.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Saddlebag said:


> Check her back. If she is uncomfortable that may be how she is expressing it. She didn't fuss when your mother was on. Was she bareback or saddle? Is she lighter than you. Perhaps she was more balanced and not creating one-sided pressure.


She did fuss when my mom was on. Until I started lunging her at a fast trot and changing directions every half circle to circle. She was under saddle both times. This is a habit of hers, she did it with the old owners/trainers too. And the girl who started her is equine major. To her, it is like cribbing in a sense. She has been seen. Her teeth and back are fine. She is sound. My mom also weighs around the same as me. So it isn't weight. And my mom is very novice. My seat, balance, aids, are all better then hers. She is very clumsy with aids, and slow to release pressure if not told when..


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Checking for holes is good (in addition to other things I believe). There are holes if she forgets what yielding is. Maybe nerves too, which you could also attribute to holes.

Have you done all her training? Do you have an experienced friend or trainer? Even hire a trainer short term? Sometimes an extra pair of eyes may have some good advice and see something you do not.


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## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> Checking for holes is good (in addition to other things I believe). There are holes if she forgets what yielding is. Maybe nerves too, which you could also attribute to holes.
> 
> Have you done all her training? Do you have an experienced friend or trainer? Even hire a trainer short term? Sometimes an extra pair of eyes may have some good advice and see something you do not.


I have not done 90% of it. So no. I wont hire anybody, one because money. And secondly because I bought her as something for me to train. And I don't mind going back and fixing mistakes others have made with her. I have an experienced friend who is a trainer, and gives me the advice. Etc. Basically now she just needs taken back to square one. Because if theres one hole, theres probably a lot more. And I am in no rush. I have lots of time to work with her.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

OK. I was thinking more along the lines of you had. If you know what you're doing you should be fine. I was simply thinking if there were holes left *by you* (cause no ones perfect ) that it may be easier for outside eyes to spot them.

Sounds like you are on the right track!!


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