# What is good horse movement?



## Horseychick87 (Feb 5, 2014)

'Daisy Cutter' is a term for a horse with long low strides, basically no knee lift. Favored by show ring hunters here in the US (Not 100% about the UK and Europe)

'Good Hock Action' typically means the horse is engaging the hocks and bringing his legs well under himself. 
Or (depending on the breed) That he may have a good lift to his hocks when moving (like a Hackney horse.)

It sounds like your QH has good dressage movement and with some work would engage his hind legs more efficiently. 

If you had a video of him that would be great (we all love videos on here. ;-) )

To get him to engage his hindquarters more try to get him to lift his shoulders, you can do this through half-halts and a few other maneuvers. Also if you have them available try to do some hill work as this will engage his back also.

Other people with far more riding experience with me would be able to suggest targeted workouts.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Carrie94 said:


> I've always wondered what people meant when they said that a particular horse was a good mover. I realize that it can vary between disciplines, but I'm truly curious to know whether or not my horses have good movement for their breed or chosen discipline.
> 
> For example, a very springy, bouncy trot combined with a long stride (large overstep, esp. at the walk) - is that considered good movement for a dressage horse? I have a three year old QH who moves like he's on springs. At the same time, I feel like he lacks impulsion and doesn't drive properly from his hindquarters. That could be fixed with some good training, though, I'm sure.
> 
> ...


I've heard the term daisy pusher used when. A qtr horse has his head so low to the ground. 

Good hock action can be too much if it isn't balanced with the front action. Not pleasing to see hocks lifting high and no knee action.

At 3 he isn't going to be as strong or balanced. Another thing to watch for is the rear stride is the same length as the front. If they are heavy on the forehand the front leg leaves the ground too slow and they look like they are pulling them self around.
If he's lacking balance he won't be steady, may drop his shoulder, have trouble cantering both leads, to name a few things to watch for.


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## Carrie94 (Dec 2, 2014)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SW7iCCmWXA&feature=youtu.be

Feel free to critique my riding, too, while you're at it.  I feel like my posting is terrible on this guy. I have since shortened my stirrups which makes me feel even more unbalanced, but at least I don't lose them anymore. Tips?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I'd say he definitely is more of an "English horse" than a "Western horse". Now that's not to say you can't put western tack on him, but have you ever considered putting an English saddle on and taking English lessons?

He's very quick and up as opposed to forward and out but I think English type training would help fix that for both of you.

Even if you don't want lessons I would consider an English saddle just for fun, I think actually shortening your stirrups and really posting (as in English) would help both of you even if it's just "for fun".


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

He looks like a nice horse.

Here is what I see.

He looks as if he moves straight but there was only one short piece where he was moving directly at the camera. 

On the lunge he is unbalanced and rushing, taking shorter steps because of the unbalance.
He needs to be on a far larger circle, at least half as wide again, kept going forward but not hurried. He needs to learn to open his shoulders more taking a longer stride.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I also noticed the tight lunging circle and the very tight circles while riding. I would find an arena (or "arena" is fine XD) and do lots of forward and large circles as opposed to "left right, straight, no left, now left again!"


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

this horse is a very nice horse. he is very young still , but already shows a very willing temperament with a good work ethic developing. I really like his movement. he is evenly forward, neither pulling with his forhand, nor being dumped onto it from behind. I did not see a shortening of his strides in the lunging, per se, but, he is a bit unbalanced and moving a little bit with an over bend at the shoulders, allowing him to wnat to fall out a bit. 

this might be made better by allowing a larger cirlce. what I did see is that you are walking too much toward him, with too much drive still coming off that handy stick, and that makes him think about his hindquarters, (worrying about when you are going to drive them out and around), and he gets to drifting them outward.

you are too quick in your asking him to stop and change directions. if this horse were not paying attention, or being resistant, I could see doing that, in order to shake him up a bit. but, in this case, he is very available to you.

what I see is you ask him to stop, and he stops and immediately turns to face you, kind of whipping his hiney out of your way, and you STILL get in there and drive it over, AFTER he has already moved it. he has learned the pattern and is ahead of you. I really don't like that sort of turn becuase it makes a horse turn on his forehand. he has to . in order for him to whip his hiney over and out of your pushing face and stick, he must weight his front feet so that he can swing both back over. 

the goal is to get him to BEND into the disengagement, rocking back onto his hind, which frees up his front, so that he can step his shoulders over into the new direction. to do this , slow down. use the line to get his thought on slowing, looking around the "corner " (that is from going to your left, to looking backward, around his body, to your right). get him thinking about disenageing, and see if he can carry through that thought from front to back , mind to hind, without DRIVING him around.

what it is , is like using the reins. you are going to use reins when you ride, so you want your horse to get himself ready and thinking about a turn with a signal from the rein, and then your seat and leg can assist him in completing that. but you dont just drive his hind end over. unless it's an emergency.

when you ride, you sit nicely, post nicely and ride nicely. the only thing I can say, is like the lunging sequence, you are too fast with your hand. the size of the turn is ok , but get him soft and thinking about it, and then let him do it. it looks a bit, with the way you have your hands low and all the way back on your thigh, that you are PULLLING him around.

and lastly, while I am nagging on you, don't pull downward on the rein. this is such an ugly habit that I see. people trying to get softness or headset by pulling downward. just squeeze the rein in your hand, or lift the rein. this is especially true in heavy rope reins.

he's a very nice horse, with tons of potential, and you ride really well. I see you guys having a great partnership and future.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The UK show pony/horse type has the typical natural 'daisy cutter' action - long low sweeping strides
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnReLnSzeVU
The idea dressage horse has to have that same natural flowing length of stride to get good extended paces but combined with natural elevation - all things that you improve on with work and conditioning but so much easier when you start from a good place naturally
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_L4tcvl-lk


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Sounds like you are kinda new to horses and I really like this one. He has a very nice temperament. I agree that you should take some English lessons one him. I think, if you do, you will agree with me that posting in an English saddle is much easier than in a Western saddle and that could be your problem. It also looks like he is very willing and could just use some schooling in proper movement.
I don't see a choppy trot, and I don't see bit movement either. Look up Hackney horses/ponies and watch them trot. They are the flashy extreme of big movement in the horse world. "Daisy cutters" are notorious for not picking up their feet enough and tripping bc they fall forward on the forehand. Cavaletti are a great way to get any horse to be aware of where they place their feet and develop the musculature to carry the rider.
Regarding your riding, just put in long sessions and your legs will get tired and your will begin to sink your heels in the stirrups. =D
Again a VERY good choice of horse for you.


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## Carrie94 (Dec 2, 2014)

Corporal said:


> Sounds like you are kinda new to horses and I really like this one. He has a very nice temperament. I agree that you should take some English lessons one him. I think, if you do, you will agree with me that posting in an English saddle is much easier than in a Western saddle and that could be your problem. It also looks like he is very willing and could just use some schooling in proper movement.
> I don't see a choppy trot, and I don't see bit movement either. Look up Hackney horses/ponies and watch them trot. They are the flashy extreme of big movement in the horse world. "Daisy cutters" are notorious for not picking up their feet enough and tripping bc they fall forward on the forehand. Cavaletti are a great way to get any horse to be aware of where they place their feet and develop the musculature to carry the rider.
> Regarding your riding, just put in long sessions and your legs will get tired and your will begin to sink your heels in the stirrups. =D
> Again a VERY good choice of horse for you.


Thanks, I'm NOT new to horses, I've had horses since I was 8 years old (I'm 21 now). I currently train horses (an older problem horse, starting a young gelding, training a foal, etc). I bought this horse because my previous riding horse broke down of arthritis and I needed a performance horse to ride. I guess I'm just not very knowledgeable about movement because I've never had lessons or anything of the sort.  

Thanks for your answer! Do you have any tips for keeping my heels down, now that we're talking about that? I feel like I might be braced against the stirrups instead of properly using my core. Do you see that happening or do I just need to get used to this horse?


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## Horseychick87 (Feb 5, 2014)

A tip that I'm still learning for the heels is to really push them down and when you post you can let them absorb some of the shock, along with your knees and ankles.
When you lift your butt out of the saddle push your heels down further as this help you rise without pinching with your knees and then your heel can come up a tiny bit as you sink back down.

He's a cute horse and with more training will move great, he is taking slightly shorter strides, but with work on lengthening his stride and bringing the base of his neck up I'll bet he'll be a very good all arounder, you'd be able to do most anything on him once he's got more miles on him.

I'm a very jealous girl right now, LOL.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

As already some of the posts stated, movement, as to knee action, etc is discipline specific, but I was involved with a horse IMprovement evaluation, and there is a constant that applies to all horses, without taking knee action or lack thereof into account

Good movement has the following

Impulsion
Length of stride
Rhythm
Lightness
correctness


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I've heard the term daisy pusher used when. A qtr horse has his head so low to the ground. 

No, that is not correct. In the days when heads got too low, esp in western pleasure, the term 'peanut roller was applied

If you wish to know what is desired in western pl movement, it is flat kneed movement, deep hocked
Collected movement is desired in most performance events, having a horse drive up from behind, while keeping his front end elevated, but again, when just covering ground on atrail ride, you want a horse long strided, but certainly don't ask the horse to move collected
Race horses run on their forehand, as that is the most efficient way to cover a lot of distance fast, versus with style
Gaited horses have their own method of evaluating movement, including a sounding board (Pasos )


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Ok, I probably shouldn't complain, but I spent quite some time on my critique for you, and was looking forward to hearing your reply. Yet, so far, you seem to be more concerned about your heels being down, or explaining that you are NOT new to horses. Count me impatient, but I feel a bit like maybe I wasted my time.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think this entire post is getting equitation mixed up with movement
The way movement is evaluated, is moving the horse out in hand, usually on a large triangle
A good rider can make a poor mover look better, and conversely, a poor rider can make a good mover look bad
That is why equitation is judged while riding, and movement is judged in hand, as in Hunter in hand or as in our Horse Improvement evaluation, where three judges were used, with one being an equine vet
Good movement remains as I have posted

lightness
Impulsion
rhythm
length of stride
correctness

You can really alter a horse's movement on a lunge line, by pulling on his head, thus having him drop that inside shoulder and dump on his forehand
Yes, yearling stock horses are evaluated on movement, on the lunge line, but they are moving on a loose lunge line

For example, this is a hunter in hand class, just yearling, but you can see how first the conformation is evaluated, stood up off set ,versus squared, as in halter, then a small triangle is walked and the large triangle is trotted, moving out. Lead shank remains loose, to allow the horse to move natural

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6yfi-_xI8g

So, if you want movement evaluated, don't mix it up with your equitation. Having said that, of course good movement is part of the picture in an under saddle class, as western pleasure, but you don't mix that up with equitation. In fact, you will see western pl riders with their body position back more that what is correct for equitation, having the horse slow and get under the rider
In a reining stop, or chasing a horse up into a fast circle, again, you don't have the rider in that perfect equitation position


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I don't think equitation is being confused...

The OP asked for tips and also for a riding critique saying she had trouble with his trot.

Regardless obviously the riding influences the movement and the OP wants to bring out the best in him  (and her)


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> Ok, I probably shouldn't complain, but I spent quite some time on my critique for you, and was looking forward to hearing your reply. Yet, so far, you seem to be more concerned about your heels being down, or explaining that you are NOT new to horses. Count me impatient, but I feel a bit like maybe I wasted my time.


I don't know about the OP but your critique was very helpful to me. Much of your advice was along the lines of what my trainer has been working with me on but it's helpful to hear from a different perspective and in a different way. I actually read your critique before I watched the video and could really see the things you pointed out.

To the OP: I'm no expert (like you I grew up with horses... I only started taking lessons a few years ago. It only took one lesson for me to realize I had no idea how to ride!) Anyway, to me it looks like you are working too hard at your post. Your horse seems to have lovely rhythm.. Don't fight him on it. Post WITH his rhythm, not against it. It seems like your are rising a bit too early and I think you need to slow your post down. My trainer always says: you should not be working harder than the horse!

I agree with the comments on the abrupt turns, etc. You need to prepare the turn, not surprise him with it. 

Good luck, you guys make a great team!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

As a total aside note
When someone starts a thread needing advice it is a lot easier all around to stick to one topic at a time because trying to plow through multiple answers to so many different questions gets confusing for everyone
Maybe the OP could start some new threads on each individual thing she needs help with?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree that separate posts would be helpful on all issues, as I did not read all of the responses, nor watched the video.
I just responded to the topic, 'what is good movement'

In that sense, the issue becomes clouded, once you add a rider , with that rider able to influence quality of that movement. , or go to event/breed specifics

A very good rider, can even make a horse with low grade lameness look sound, and conversely, a poor rider can interfer with a horse's natural quality of movement

Because of conformation, event rewarded action, high leg action is desired in some breeds, while that sweepy flat kneed action is desired in others

Thus, if objectively evaluated, the criteria that applies to all horses, far as quality of movement, are those I mentioned

Now, if asked what good HUS or western pleasure movement was, my answer would be modified


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## Carrie94 (Dec 2, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> Ok, I probably shouldn't complain, but I spent quite some time on my critique for you, and was looking forward to hearing your reply. Yet, so far, you seem to be more concerned about your heels being down, or explaining that you are NOT new to horses. Count me impatient, but I feel a bit like maybe I wasted my time.


I'm sorry, tinyliny. You did not waste your time! I really did appreciate your answer. It was very insightful and exactly what I was wanting to know. I read your post over and then I needed to dwell on it for a while and think about what exactly you were saying. Then somebody mentioned my riding skills and I just thought I'd let them elaborate, since I'm always looking to get better. 

But, back to your original post where you mentioned I was too quick with my hands, I can completely see your point. A hand too quick can drop a horse onto his forehand, very true. And now that you mention it, I do see when I lunge him that he's carrying himself around on his front end, and not the hind end as much, probably because I do drive his hip a lot. Perhaps too much. 

I will disagree just a little bit though - a quick response from my horse _at this stage_ is important to me, since I ride mostly western. You wouldn't ask a dressage horse to quickly spring back over his hocks like you'd ask a western horse to, which is why I usually get a little more demanding in my requests, just to quicken up their response time and get them really soft and obedient. Once a horse is advanced enough in his training, I'll go ahead and add some complexity to the exercises and work on getting them in frame and collecting vertically, but at this beginning stage I don't really worry too much about it.

The part where I disengage his hindquarters to get him to face me - well, that's more of a training thing. I just want to teach him the very basics. When I bought him, he had zero groundwork knowledge. I exaggerate to teach, then refine as the horse gets better. So in the beginning, I will focus on teaching him only one thing at a time. For now, that means getting him to be obedient and quick and responsive to my signals. The second stage of this training on the lunge is where I ask him to begin doing rollbacks to change directions - that really gets him on his hindquarters and lightens up his front end.

We can politely disagree on this topic, of course.


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## Carrie94 (Dec 2, 2014)

I'm sorry, guys, you're right. I got a little sidetracked.

So, back on Flynn, you guys think his movement is good for an English type horse? Jumping, dressage, etc? Just looking at Smilies' answer, you want lightness (he's got that), impulsion (could use more work), length of stride (good, but could be better), rhythm (apparently that's good), and correctness (does this refer to faults like a lateral instead of diagonal trot?).

Do you think lessons in collection and extension would help him to use his hindquarters better? That's probably a good way to improve his impulsion, right? For now my [short] list of things to work on looks like this:

1) larger, even circles, mostly at the trot
2) smooth, fluid transitions

Like I said, short. 

And tinyliny, would you be able to post a video of how proper changes in direction should be done in lunging? I have another gelding who REALLY drops his shoulder when he comes in! Thanks!


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## Horseychick87 (Feb 5, 2014)

Collection and extension would be a good place to start.

Also work on getting him to lift his forehand and the base of his neck and drop his hindquarters a bit, this will lighten his forehand and can make him more responsive.

Upward and downward transitions can do a lot of good for balance and gait correctness (at least it has for me in the past.)

Keep him supple though, transitions, patterns, the sky is the limit as far as what you can try with him provided he has the temperament for it.

Yup, all in all I see a good English prospect, I'm not saying he couldn't go western either, but he'd likely not do well in things like western pleasure, he could do some reining, maybe even ranch style showing if he's got some cow to him.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

The video wasn't very helpful in showing good movement ,most was him turning on tight circle lunging or by his rider riding. as a stock horse bred type he has average movement that can certainly be improved with how he is trained & ridden.:wink: He has some reach in his hock & pretty flat leg up front both desirable for the pleasure. He is rather quick legged,lacks cadence & just looks very green yet. He is not naturally slow legged like some pleasure bred horses,so more work to attain that slow leggedness.:wink: Slowing down that stride,gives them more "air" time,increase in length of stride etc. now this is where rider/trainer comes in & it is not always as easy at it looks to make a horse look like a pleasure horse:wink:. Not all horses are cut out for it & some of what you see in show pen with horses in these artificial gaits is trainers & owners of horses trying to make them into something they aren't or are going about it the wrong way:shock:.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Dressaging any horse improves his or her movement. The above posts give you good advice with arena work. I LOVE arena work. My first herd were also my lesson horses and they were in terrific shape from all back work. Because of good muscling it was easy to collect every one of them. Trail work is excellent and necessary cross training. Your horse will get bored with the routine in the round pen or arena and trails are mentally stimulating to your horse. You can use the trail to build HQ's so that he carries you better, doesn't wear out his forehand and is able to stride under better, although that ability is largely genetic. Here are trail exercises that I like:
1) Extended walk
Push your horse into the longest strided walk so that he _wants_ to break to the trot, but you don't let him. This is the stride that every horse will pick up going BACK to the barn, but ALWAYS ride fastest away from the barn. This really limbers your horse up and also works YOUR core.
2) Posting trot. 
This is a quick, working trot with a steady, rocking tempo. You don't just post a trot bc your horse is trotting. Change diagonals frequently and try to count strides, maybe 20 on the Right Rein, then 20 on the Left Rein, repeat.
3) Avoid cantering/galloping. 
It just encourages a lack of discipline and can enable a barn sour horse to bolt for home.
4) Look for hills on the trail and dry ditches, avoiding steep off the trail slopes, and WALK up and WALK down, over and over again.
Your horse will have to work his HQ's and would prefer to race up and race down, which really isn't safe.
5) RIDE WITH A BUDDY!!!! Nothing is worse that falling off or getting thrown, by yourself, your cell phone is "who knows where", and you wait for somebody to remember where you might have gone. You horse will happily abandon you and race for home. I have known riders who were left like this, one had broken her hip ON her property, and laid on the ground for 4 hours waiting for her DH to get home. Just just FYI.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Carrie, 
I don't have a video to show what I was talking about. besides, in all honesty, you do quite well, and only slowing down your hand, and giving him a chance to answer you before you push would be, in my opinion, a good thing.

I don't know anything about training a hrose for Western riding, specifically. I have always been told to start easy and work for quicker responses.

he's a really nice horse, and so willing, and I like his movement. I bet he's a lot of fun to ride. maybe , experiment with him to see if he'll respond to your hand if you put it on a bit slower. and don't pull down and back. always lift the rein more.
pulling down and back does put the horse on his forehand, and can build in a bracing response. lifting more helps the horse loosen at the poll and jaw without rotating his head around (pointing his nose toward the direction you are pulling, but his ears point the other direction.) when the horse does that, it dumps him on his forehand.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I encourage you to take lessons. You will benefit from at least 2,000 years of horse training that people bothered to record for posterity. Many of our ancestors took a lifetime to perfect their horse training methods and, unless you having been working for horse trainers your whole life, it is unlikely that you are aware of ANY of their techniques.
IMHO, every horse should be trained to uniform cues. Most people that have begun riding at an academy expect their horse to understand reining and leg cues. If you train your horse to take unusual cues, then sell him, you minimize the ability to find him a good home in the future, unless he is sound, well built, good temperament, and the new owner believes that it is worth his or her to retrain to normal cues. 
Before you laugh at this, I have been on horses while shopping that were trained by weird methods, like "whoa" by putting your heels in front of the chest. '0' A horse only knows his training, but how do you stop THAT one?
It is hard enough for a horse to have a long, healthy life, and good training is probably the best insurance for that horse to HAVE a good life and find a good owner.
Hardly ANY horses life out their lives with a single owner. My three horses were each owned by two other owners, and that is a low number.
I have a healthy respect for advice from other trainers. Somebody else may have figured out how to solve a training problem that baffles me and I can assess my training to see if I have been causing the problem. In order to train a horse you have to throw away your ego. Let your pride be from the well mannered and obedient horse that you trained who shows that you have put in the time and effort and patience and understanding that your stallion or mare or gelding needed.


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## Carrie94 (Dec 2, 2014)

Thanks tinyliny and Corporal. I'll definitely keep your advice in mind!!

Corporal - I would LOOOVVVE to take riding lessons. I'd absolutely love to! But, and here's the glitch - I live way too far up the darn map!! The closest place that offers English riding lessons is a 6 hour drive south of me, and I don't even know if I like their riding program. I have done some research and considered going once every weekend. What can beat hands on learning, right? But I have a full-time job and I can't afford to neglect my other duties, and my other horses, for that matter. That's why I'm submersing myself in forums, YouTube videos, and the dozens of books lying beside my bed.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

What books are you reading?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hi Carrie
I watched the video, so now I will tell you what I see
I agree you have a nice willing horse.
First, regarding the lunging. To me, lunging has a purpose, thus on abroke horse, I bit him up so that he moves as I expect him to move under saddle, far as topline and giving in the face.
I think your horse lacks that training, so I would probably go back and bit him up slowly, while lunging, until he can keep topline and frame at all gaits and transitions. It is very important when lunging a horse, to prevent two of the main pitfalls of lunging. A horse dropping that inside shoulder and popping the hip out as you don't have legs to keep hind end engaged. Thus, drive the horse up, from behind (when he is bitted up), to get that engagement
Of course, you can achieve this give in the face, while tracking up, riding, but you do need to have that feel, as when to drive and hold, then when the horse is moving correctly-reward
Far as making him work over his hocks, correctness comes before speed. You need shoulder control, so the horse learns to move those shoulders, keeps a pivot foot, and crosses over correctly in front
Make the horse use himself. That means you need to have a bit barrier, and ride with more legs that hands, so that when the horse is moving correctly, in frame, you reward the horse by giving him aloose rein, expecting him to stay correct on his own. At first you will only get a few strides, before you need to hold and drive again, but that period where the horse learns to hold himself in frame, without bit support will grow.
Since you are riding western, I am giving you advise that eventually will lead to being able to show /ride that horse off of the indirect rein and with little bit contact
The softer you can get the horse in his entire body, the lighter he will also be.
Thus, I work a lot on body control. Half pass, turn on haunches, turn on forehand, sidepass and many other exercises that help with shoulder control


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Based solely on that video he could be a nice average level English horse but he lacks the natural elevation that he'd need to ever go higher in dressage or jumping
In fairness to him though its not really easy to judge from that video because on the lunge he's on way too short a line to use himself correctly and under saddle he's obviously still very green so again is never looking balanced - braces his neck against the forward movement - and isn't able to move forwards with a free sweeping stride because he's not ready for that yet
I think you need to focus on having him going forwards on the max amount of line - calm and controlled - no 'running around' rather than worry about how well he turns to command


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Far as your riding, long trotting is used to warm up western horses, even pl horses, but after you have warmed them up, then you want to ask for the jog. Your body language, the way you sit, will help the horse to both slow and get cadence. So, after you warm up, quit posting
It is very easy to speed a horse up, but if they always learn just fast, pretty hard to slow them down. That is why on my all around horses, I get that western first, then in a year or so I add HUS, as it is quite simple then to add some leg,bit contact and ask them to lengthen stride, but pretty hard to get a horse shown western, if he has always been shown moving on and with rein support
Of course, there is no trotting in a reining pattern, so if that is your aim, then getting that jog is not that important
I would also get rid of that extra rein, I assume is a lead that you would use trail riding, but is distracting while training
I will not judge as to whether this horse would be a western pleasure /all around prospect, until he is at the stage where he has learned how to move, driving up, rounding and staying soft in the face, learning to keep shoulder, not head up


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## Carrie94 (Dec 2, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Far as your riding, long trotting is used to warm up western horses, even pl horses, but after you have warmed them up, then you want to ask for the jog. Your body language, the way you sit, will help the horse to both slow and get cadence. So, after you warm up, quit posting
> It is very easy to speed a horse up, but if they always learn just fast, pretty hard to slow them down. That is why on my all around horses, I get that western first, then in a year or so I add HUS, as it is quite simple then to add some leg,bit contact and ask them to lengthen stride, but pretty hard to get a horse shown western, if he has always been shown moving on and with rein support
> Of course, there is no trotting in a reining pattern, so if that is your aim, then getting that jog is not that important
> I would also get rid of that extra rein, I assume is a lead that you would use trail riding, but is distracting while training
> I will not judge as to whether this horse would be a western pleasure /all around prospect, until he is at the stage where he has learned how to move, driving up, rounding and staying soft in the face, learning to keep shoulder, not head up


You have very good advice, Smilie. I would love to be able to teach him to jog, with his head down and relaxed. I just thought that with those springs in his legs he might not be able to do that. 

I wanted him for trail riding, non-competitive jumping and some barrel racing. I was kind of just hoping to use him for everything and then find out what he was best at, and then focus mostly on that.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I would advise you to buy Julie Goodnight's program.
Goodnight's Principles of Riding 5-DVD Set
Before your eyes bug out at the price of this, consider those 6 hours of travel that you say you would have to drive for training, and the cost and you can see that this is a reasonable price. Julie trains basic and advanced horsemanship principals in Western and English, Pleasure and Show. I have been watching her program for about 5 years now, and I would hand her my horses in a heartbeat to train. I think you would enjoy her commonsense, relaxed way that she describes how to ride and how to train.
http://juliegoodnight.com/about.html


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

personally, I think it would be a shame to dampen down all the nice spring he has. some horses just don't appreciate being asked to go slow, and keep their heads down low. I know that WP can be done correctly. at least , theoretically I know it can, but pretty much every video I've ever seen of it looks a horse whose spirit is squelched and his movement unnatural. and WP horses I 've seen in person are very hard to get them to move out again, once they've been confined for a long time to a jog.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Thoughts-

if posting is hard you aren't doing it right. The horse should provide the movement and there is plenty there.

As to goals, where to go with him, etc. The most important thing to know before any of that is what YOUR goals are, particularly with him.

Are you trying to do what HE is built to do or are you training him to suit you (not a bad thing either way or saying you aren't a match unless it's extreme of course).

Or are you just having fun..for show? Are you set on Western or willing to try English?

That's the most important question.

I think a springy trot can be nice for a jog but not a WP "jog"


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## Carrie94 (Dec 2, 2014)

You're very right, Yogiwick. I have always wanted to try English, and I'm actually considering getting English tack and trying it on him. And I would love to show, but like I said, no options available to me this far north.

Tinyliny - quite in agreement. I don't want him THAT slow!! A nice steady, balanced trot and canter with impulsion is all I'm asking. I've never really been a fan of WP.

Corporal - I may even try that! That looks really interesting. I like Julie but I haven't studied her method a whole lot. Is it very informative? Or is it hard to follow?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> personally, I think it would be a shame to dampen down all the nice spring he has. some horses just don't appreciate being asked to go slow, and keep their heads down low. I know that WP can be done correctly. at least , theoretically I know it can, but pretty much every video I've ever seen of it looks a horse whose spirit is squelched and his movement unnatural. and WP horses I 've seen in person are very hard to get them to move out again, once they've been confined for a long time to a jog.


Well, of course it depends on your goals, far as training.
Yes, some western pleasure horses, esp those that have a spur stop put on them, can become a one act pony.
However, I also trail ride my pleasure horses,, and they certainly can move out, when asked
I have shown Smilie open English, against more 'traditional breeds (TB,s Arabs, ect and won, under a judge from a dressage background.
I also trail ride her, and have covered lots of ground, long trotting

The op asked for quality of movement, riding western, so my response was geared to that. The gaits that a western horse is judged at , are walk jog and lope.

If the aim is just to have a broke horse, or a HUS prospect, my answer would be different

It is also very incorrect to assume that in good western training programs, the horses are never long trotted or even galloped. Long trotting is used a lot, esp to build strenght

I admit, that because western pl is often an entry level type of event, many horses are seen moving with heads too low, hocks left out behind, the lope falling apart into four beats, BUT, a western pl horse , trianed correctly, by a GOOD trainer and who is an exceptional mover, has a high degree of both training and ability
Western pl, like all events, has become more difficult and specific, and has nothing to do as to how that horse rides down a trail
It is a show ring demonstration of level of training and degree of difficulty.
Any horse , with training, can beperorm three gaits and have good transitions .
It takes a great deal more to move slow, performing true gaits, rating speed, collection and keeping frame, off of leg and seat alone

On a trail ride, my horses move on a loose rein, and if I want to jog, they jog. If I want to cover ground, because it is getting dark, they long trot, and I either post or stand in my stirrups

When they are shown, western pl, they know what is expected there also


charlie trail riding




Charlie hunter in hand



Charlie western pl (not me riding, as I had knee replacements at that time)




Smilie, western pl. (yes, I could have reins a bit looser, but just coming in
Head, is not too low, nor is that desired



This is Smilie, fall of two year old year, in a big open futurity (32 two year olds ) She placed in the top 10 under all 4 NSBA judges ) There was also a pattern ridden


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

If only the typical WP horse received such training .


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I had a WP horse here for a while that had won quite a lot, she could ride English as well as any trained English horse and her paces and elevation were superb. When asked to drop her head and jog she responded to the cues to do that.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Carrie94 said:


> You're very right, Yogiwick. I have always wanted to try English, and I'm actually considering getting English tack and trying it on him. And I would love to show, but like I said, no options available to me this far north.
> 
> Tinyliny - quite in agreement. I don't want him THAT slow!! A nice steady, balanced trot and canter with impulsion is all I'm asking. I've never really been a fan of WP.
> 
> Corporal - I may even try that! That looks really interesting. I like Julie but I haven't studied her method a whole lot. Is it very informative? Or is it hard to follow?


Since you've been interested in English anyways I'd say I think that would be the perfect niche for both of you and to go try it!!

You obviously have the basics of riding down so I would invest in some tack (at least a cheap (but decent of course) saddle, bridle doesn't matter) and watch lots of videos.

Change the saddle, bridle should be fine (for now, a bridle is a bridle though if you want to stick with it after a few times you may want to add a noseband and long term personally I'd swap all together, it's the reins that cause the trouble imo-western reins aren't designed for contact ime).

I don't know what's flopping around in the video..? Do you ride with a lead attached to the bridle? Not sure what it is or why you need it but I'd get rid of that.

Bit looks like a D ring snaffle? That should be just fine.

If you can manage it try to take a few lessons to start off with. Regular lessons would obviously be better but I understand it can be tricky. I would recommend NOT jumping without lessons.

Do you have any neighbors? Maybe a poster at the feed store for lessons?

If you truly want to learn be careful though because to a lot of people English and western have a different saddle and that's about it and if you're genuinely going to do it you should build up to *something*, even if you don't show.

I think this horse is capable of doing pretty much anything English type. I wouldn't expect him at the uppermost levels but he is pretty nice.

Does your horse have any English experience? For starters I would stop thinking of him as a Western horse since your training thoughts as mentioned are coming from a Western point of view and while good riding/training is just that you will fine tune it differently. (For example, don't "yank" him around turns to soften him, you won't be turning like that in English unless jumping upper levels and it should be ask then tell) (Yes, I know you aren't actually "yanking" him, no worries, it's just very abrupt)


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

what you are seeing as an "extra rein" , or "flopping around" is the line from her Mecate.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Carrie, 

Check out "cowboy dressage" the emphasis is on softness in movement, cue and feel. Your horse is indeed willing and that is half the battle. You will not need to buy all new tack. 

The link provides a good deal of information so you can check it out. Even if you don't want to actually test, the patterns for the tests, I have found, to be quite useful in working on the minutia of movement. 

Judges Scoresheets, Test Diagrams and Call Sheets


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Carrie94 said:


> I like Julie but I haven't studied her method a whole lot. Is it very informative? Or is it hard to follow?


Julie Goodnight is a very good teacher who can simplify the complicated and break ideas down into smaller steps. Judging from your location and circumstances, I thought to recommend a trainer's method that I thought best suited to your needs. Go to her site and do some reading, and see if you agree. =D


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I have a friend at work who keeps on making comments on my western riding. I finally said "while I have more western experience than you I really don't have a lot so it's interesting you keep on saying that, why do you?" and she said it was since I was such a "quiet relaxed and effortless" rider. Which regardless of discipline I took as a huge compliment.

I think cross training is very very good for horse and rider. Riding is riding and the more you do and the more you try the better you will be.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I like Julie Goodnight. I bet I'd like her in person, were we to meet.


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## Carrie94 (Dec 2, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> Do you have any neighbors? Maybe a poster at the feed store for lessons?


Nobody, and I mean NOBODY in my area (for hundreds of miles) rides English. We're western, through and through. Like I said before, riding lessons don't exist where I'm at. You learn by yourself, and if you're lucky, you may have a decently experienced friend who can give you some pointers. That's it. And we only have one small feed store. 



Yogiwick said:


> Does your horse have any English experience? For starters I would stop thinking of him as a Western horse since your training thoughts as mentioned are coming from a Western point of view and while good riding/training is just that you will fine tune it differently.


He has no English experience.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

OK, you mentioned considering driving for lessons here and there (that's a LONG way to drive!) and if you think that's an option I'd do it at least once or twice.

I think I'd recommend a lot of research and watching videos. Figure out what you want to do (jump? dressage? just ride?) as the positions can be very different. Dressage is more similar to western, but you will need to get that leg under you.

I think the right saddle will help. You said shorter stirrups make you feel unbalanced? That's good since you use your seat but you also need to learn to have a firm leg as an anchor (doesn't mean squeeze constantly though but it should rest on the horse and be steady). Do use your seat but you need to get out of the saddle too. Start where you're comfortable.

The tricky part is to learn to ride with contact, but again go slow. You do not NEED contact so just work up to it. Contact should be a light feel on the mouth you don't need to worry about collection or anything more than that for awhile.

Now I know where to go it I start a barn!


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