# Sport Horse, Potential Purchase



## FerrumEquus (May 20, 2014)

Hi everyone, this is a horse I am looking at for possible purchase at the moment. I only have the one picture of him where he's not moving, but he's pretty square. Would love to hear what you all think:


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## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

Nice, enough, though the one thing that strikes me as odd, is that he seems to stand parked out in front. Almost like hes leaning back on his heels. Otherwise, a pretty well put together horse.


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## littlebird (Jan 22, 2014)

He appears like he's possibly bum-high. His pasterns appear short and upright and he toes out in back. As CandyCanes said there is something odd about how he stands in front (almost like he's bracing or leaning back). He also looks like he might be tied in behind at the knee (which is hidden by his boots). Overall, I'm most worried about his legs and feet (hopefully someone with more experience can give you more feedback on them). Otherwise he looks pretty good to me!


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## disastercupcake (Nov 24, 2012)

To me he looks like he's standing hollow and braced. 

He is tied in at the knee, has slightly upright pasterns, and is a little posty in the hocks. 

Also his face is a tad btv, which usually means he's been trained with some sort of device or backwards training. I'd go see and ride him first, see how he moves- it could be the rider.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

i think he's a pretty nice horse. he may be a bit tied in behind the knee, yes. I do not see posty legged in back. he is a bit camped out in that stance, but if he were squared up a bit better, I think you'd see a very nice hind leg, with a nice gaskin and short canon bones, both front and rear.

nice shoulder and neck placement and overall balance is pretty nice. appears a bit long in the back but this is in part becuase the saddle looks too far forward. the rider is also pushing back into her stirrup at the halt, which encourages the horse to push forward against that. minor , but don't let that influence the way you see the horse's conformation.

I'd like to see moving pictures of this horse.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I can't tell if he's tied in or not with those boots on, he's a bit straight through his hooks but not awful
I think the stance might be connected to her trying to hook his head in for the camera and he's hovering on not knowing if he should stand square and still or step backwards
His quarters do look a bit high - but if he's a youngster still growing in front then that's no big deal


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## FerrumEquus (May 20, 2014)

Thank you everyone, here are a few more pictures of him in motion. He's a small 15 hand horse, fully grown at 7. He's part Hanoverian and part park hack pony. I have ridden him once, I quite liked him, but I am not an expert in horses. He tends to hold his tail up all swishy even when he's walking normally too.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

He is a bit long and the length is in his coupling. He has an adequate shoulder but lacks power behind. His stifle is set back behind his point of hip and his hind leg is lacking in angulation as a result. He is slightly down hill. He has been stood up on the worst surface possible for a conformation shot.

In the moving pictures you can see the lack of power behind in his rather short reach with his hind foot.


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## FerrumEquus (May 20, 2014)

Thank you very much everyone, and thanks Elena with the diagram! Appreciate the comments greatly.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

although I agree with Elana for the most part, I think that the rider is possibly offereing a hard hand. he looks very unhappy and looks like he might be really leaning on the bit.

looking in this photo, he is reaching under decently going to the right.


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## FerrumEquus (May 20, 2014)

It's interesting. I watched him be ridden and he seems to naturally offer that head down position, though when I rode him, he seemed very chompy on the bit, and yes, leaning on it. 

What does that signify, if anything? Simply rider error?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

it's so hard to say, but he does look worried about the contact, irritated a bit. could be his teeth, the bit, the way the rider uses her hands, too much focus on head position, or, just photos that catch things at a moment in time that are not necessarily representative. 

I like him. I'd look at riding him a bit on a loose rein, out hacking and things , to see how he feels without being asked to come into any kind of frame.


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## FerrumEquus (May 20, 2014)

With regards to him being behind the vertical, could that be the result of previous training with aids and he's just continuing the unhappy habit? Or is it at all possible that due to his breeding he would naturally hold his head that way in work? I will be riding him again, it's harder to see what his head is doing when I am riding him though. I'll bring my instructor along to see what she thinks.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

FerrumEquus said:


> With regards to him being behind the vertical, could that be the result of previous training with aids and he's just continuing the unhappy habit? Or is it at all possible that due to his breeding he would naturally hold his head that way in work? I will be riding him again, it's harder to see what his head is doing when I am riding him though. I'll bring my instructor along to see what she thinks.


It's very likely the training/aids. My old gelding was ridden in a tie-down that pinned his nose to his chest (I wish I was exaggerating). When I first started working with him on free lunging (he didn't know how), he would run around with his head tucked WAY behind the vertical.

This was him after three months of free lunging and working on getting him to stretch out his neck.


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## FerrumEquus (May 20, 2014)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> It's very likely the training/aids. My old gelding was ridden in a tie-down that pinned his nose to his chest (I wish I was exaggerating). When I first started working with him on free lunging (he didn't know how), he would run around with his head tucked WAY behind the vertical.
> 
> This was him after three months of free lunging and working on getting him to stretch out his neck.


That's so sad. I really don't understand the fascination with getting them to run around with their heads down like that. One of my instructors said it was to help them hold their backs in such a way that they can bear weight better, but I don't know if that's true. 

I see in your picture, he still holds his head down a lot, did he stop doing that ever?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

FerrumEquus said:


> That's so sad. I really don't understand the fascination with getting them to run around with their heads down like that. One of my instructors said it was to help them hold their backs in such a way that they can bear weight better, but I don't know if that's true.
> 
> I see in your picture, he still holds his head down a lot, did he stop doing that ever?


He did, but it took a long time. 

He was put in a tie-down because his owners were stupid. Their saddle didn't fit and he kept acting up, so they bitted him up into a twisted wire snaffle (this horse had absolutely no clue about neck reining, so he was direct reined in a twisted wire snaffle). He started throwing his head because it hurt and they slapped a tight tie-down on him. He was a hot mess when I started working with him. 

It took many, many months of free lunging him to get him to start relaxing, then we put a surcingle on him and introduced a french link eggbutt snaffle and encouraged him to stretch down and into the contact created by the side reins. By the time his old owners took him back (long story, but it was almost 2 years later), he was soft enough to be ridden bareback in a french link eggbutt snaffle by an 8yo little girl who was terrified of horses (she had been thrown from a huge warmblood a couple of years previous). 

Working on the bit with a rounded back and engaged hindquarters (or working collected, as it is called) is completely different than making the horse run around with its head tucked into its chest behind the vertical and forcing it into a frame. The boy you're looking at is being forced into frame. His back is hollow and he's not fully-engaging his hindquarters. He's bracing on the bit instead of softening to it.

Look up pictures and videos of top dressage horses and compare them to the boy you're looking at. The top dressage horses are truly collected. Your boy is being forced into a facsimile of collection that is doing more harm than good.


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## FerrumEquus (May 20, 2014)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> He did, but it took a long time.
> 
> He was put in a tie-down because his owners were stupid. Their saddle didn't fit and he kept acting up, so they bitted him up into a twisted wire snaffle (this horse had absolutely no clue about neck reining, so he was direct reined in a twisted wire snaffle). He started throwing his head because it hurt and they slapped a tight tie-down on him. He was a hot mess when I started working with him.
> 
> ...


I'm glad your horse got better, and thank you very much for all the explanation regarding what he's doing and why he's doing it. He has been owned by a dressage rider, so what you're saying could very well check out in terms of aids, etc. 

When I rode him he wasn't sensitive or hot at all (which is one of the major reasons I'm still interested in him) but yes, he was very unhappy about the bit I think. I thought perhaps it was something I was doing. I tried giving him basically no pressure at all, but it didn't seem to make much difference at the time.

I wonder if he were given a softer bit and asked for less if he would come right, or if he just thinks being ridden is about being grimly uncomfortable. Do you think he would need 'rehabilitation' to get him to engage his hindquarters and stop worrying about having his head down on the bit?


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## Atomicodyssey (Apr 13, 2014)

Honestly this horse looks uncomfortable. A bit downhill and maybe tied in but proper conformation photos will determine more. I would try riding him in a side pull. My horse was heavily over bitted in a "jawbreaker" for barrels, would rear with any curb pressure and his past owner was surprised he could be ridden in a snaffle. He still does not whoa excellently but I've been riding him in a side pull and he is so much more relaxed end listens to my aids better than with a bit, even a snaffle. Just an idea. I think he is a nice horse.


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## FerrumEquus (May 20, 2014)

Atomicodyssey said:


> Honestly this horse looks uncomfortable. A bit downhill and maybe tied in but proper conformation photos will determine more. I would try riding him in a side pull. My horse was heavily over bitted in a "jawbreaker" for barrels, would rear with any curb pressure and his past owner was surprised he could be ridden in a snaffle. He still does not whoa excellently but I've been riding him in a side pull and he is so much more relaxed end listens to my aids better than with a bit, even a snaffle. Just an idea. I think he is a nice horse.


It's really interesting how people are saying he's uncomfortable - which is totally possible. When you ride him, he's not hot, or sensitive, certainly doesn't rear, buck or act up in any way. So if he is uncomfortable, it's not manifesting behaviorally, aside from some mouthiness on the bit.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

What is he ridden in now?

Putting him in a milder bit, riding with a softer hand, and doing a lot of "long and low" on a loose rein would do this guy a WORLD of good.

When you rode him, did it feel like he was leaning on your hands? 

Hot, sensitive, rear, buck, etc, aren't always indicators that a horse is uncomfortable. A lot of times, they will get in trouble and be worked harder if they act up as you described, so they learn to be more subtle about it, including bracing on your hands and being mouthy.


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## FerrumEquus (May 20, 2014)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> What is he ridden in now?
> 
> Putting him in a milder bit, riding with a softer hand, and doing a lot of "long and low" on a loose rein would do this guy a WORLD of good.
> 
> ...


Do you know, I'm not 100% sure, but I think it was just a normal snaffle bit. I'll check that. When I rode him, I did feel a lot of pressure on my hands. I thought perhaps I was being too hard with him, so I gave him less pressure, but it didn't seem to make that much difference. He was sort of biting the bit and yes, possibly bracing on my hands. It was a couple weeks ago, so I can't entirely remember, but I do remember noticing that he didn't seem happy with the bit. 

How do you do long and low? Just give them their head and let them walk until they start to relax?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

FerrumEquus said:


> How do you do long and low? Just give them their head and let them walk until they start to relax?


Yep. The object of "long and low" is to get them to stretch their head and neck out and down. You're not allowing them to grab the bit and do as they want, but merely giving them the opportunity to seek contact on their own.

As for the bit, I would put him into a loose ring or eggbutt french link (three piece) snaffle and work from there.


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## FerrumEquus (May 20, 2014)

Well, interestingly enough, he is apparently already ridden in an eggbutt snaffle. So that rules out issues with a harsh bit, I guess. Curiouser and curiouser!


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## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

An eggbutt can be a harsh bit in the wrong hands. Always remember that. Also the rider might be extremely hard with their hands, but only a very experienced person would see that from the ground. I'm gathering you are not a qualified instructor, so you wouldn't see it. And neither would I! But just that the rider may not seem hard handed, and the only apparent symptom is a very tense horse. Diddly, my 5 year old was ridden behind the vertical... In a French link. When I rode him, I was not hard on his mouth, so he used his new found freedom to go hollow. It took me 9 months to finally find the balance. Just like that, he went on the bit. Now everyday he improves in leaps and bounds. He still occasionally dips behind the vertical, but its easy enough to rectify.
I think what would help enormously, if you could do this, is go see this horse again. Get us a video of yourself riding him. Can you do that for us? We are all presuming an awful lot, just by looking at a picture of him, and he's not even moving.
Please and thankyou 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Even a mild snaffle can be harsh if a horse has had its head tied in to get it into a 'frame' - when you 'ride a horse' into a nice collected outline you use a pressure and release method - so when he relaxes and softens to your hand you reward him be removing the pressure - but its a gradual process and not achieved by clamping your hands on his mouth and holding it there for ages - which is what happens when you force their head in at the very start of their education with some gadget
What often happens is the horse ducks behind the bit (nose on chest) to avoid it or (as in this horse) tries to get above it but can't but doesn't give up and braces himself against it instead - so you see that stiff tense head carriage and neck that's too high
You can work them out of it - as others have already suggested - a bitless bridle or a mild mullen mouth rubber or nylon bit and encouraging him to go on a lighter contact, longer rein so he moves from high and anxious to long, low and relaxed. Once you get that you can start to work on the correct collected headcarriage - assuming of course you decided he was worth buying


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## FerrumEquus (May 20, 2014)

Thanks very much for all your advice! I'm by no means an experienced horse person, far from being an instructor. It's been very enlightening reading all the comments. When I next go out and see him, I will try and get some video.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Most horses will reach under themselves on a canter turn with the hind leg if on the correct lead. This horse lacks freedom behind because of his conformation (regardless of the riding). If you are looking for an upper level horse in dressage this horse will lack scope behind. His extended trot will not be brilliant and his collections will not be powerful. 

This does not mean you should not train him to that level. You can do that. I did that with a much worse horse (tho he had a fanatastic hind leg.. he also had a steep shoulder and so was limited in front :/). Just do not expect brilliance.


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