# Parelli horsenality



## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

of all of parelli's some weird and some wonderful creations, horsenality is easily the worst.

simple fact is there are more than 4 horses in the world.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

They had to think of something new so they could get more money.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

though having said that, some people i've met do use it effectively and mainly use the strategies for each of the 4 categories but just because they're effective strategies in different situations.

but most parelli people i've met are into labelling their horse this or that, when in fact their horse is a horse, not a right brain extrovert or left brain introvert and whatnot, just a horse, and capable of much more than 4 sets of behaviours, and deserves more dignity than being treated according to a template.


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## Lonannuniel (Jun 13, 2008)

My horse is too unique to be categorized! today he was a complete prince..and as i recall, he was an elephant last week...and a nerd the week before that ;P


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## heartscontent (Jan 11, 2009)

Yeah well I am not here to bash Parelli. I actually do Parelli but the horsenalities seems to be for novices to label their horse. I know my horse can't be labeled as left or right brain. I did work with a horse that fit into the Parelli label perfectly but not every horse fits into each label perfectly. 
This is the only thing that bugs me about Parelli.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I find this approach to be very funny frankly. It's like "one size fits all".


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> I find this approach to be very funny frankly. It's like "one size fits all".


That seems to be a running theam with PP.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

I went through the motions of the Horsenality for Scout for fun, and honestly I can't remember what the result was... I feel like he was really evenly distributed all around that little characteristic-wheel thingy...

I don't give it any more credit than any other kind of personality test or quiz. Fun to mess with and find the results, but I've found it easier to just mess with the horse for a little bit and let him tell me what he is like as an individual, not what pigeonhole he fits in (or doesn't). :wink:

Just my personal experience and 2 cents.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

A couple of points:

1) The horsenality chart doesn't say that there are only 4 horse personalities: there are 4* main* types, a combination of extrovert, introvert, calm/dominating/alpha or scared/nervous/beta. 

You could also say that a human is mainly one of these types (in fact I think that PP students are pinpointing their own personalities, using the 4 types.) People have been referring to "alpha" human types, or introvert humans for ages, also.

As such, it's just a helpful chart, since each horsenality requires a different skill set for optimum effectiveness. You don't treat a scared horse like you do a challenging horse, e.g.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

not treating a scared horse the same way you treat a dominant horse has been around longer than parelli's horsenalities.

i once saw a parelli professional say to a group of students "any given horse can be any given combination of all given horsenalities, at any given time"

needless to say the response was generally something like "blasphemy!"
but a few clever people in the group understood & were better off for it.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Parelli doesn't claim that they're the first to teach treating a scared horse differently from a challenging horse (not my claim, either) but they've put the main ones in a chart to help people remember that principle.

Just look at a public horse forum such as this one on any given day & see how many people ask what to do about a horse problem, but they don't think to learn from the horse whether the horse is refusing to do something out of fear or out of being challenging.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I agree with Northern it is just a system to identify behavior so that a human knows what to do in a given situation. I have a horse that is in all quadrants and can be in any one at any given moment. As far as the chart goes corporations have been doing this to decide if potential employees will fit into a team. I've had contracts at several companies that did that and it was pretty useful. As part of the interview process there was a personality test (can't remember the name of it) and also technical tests. I seem to remember Linda worked with someone who is well known in that field to develop the horsenality chart.


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## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

I've heard of the horsenality thing, but i haven't had time to really look at it and see where Bella fits in best, from glancing at the chart it looks like she's a bit of everything lol


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

To me, it's kind of like star signs. Some people swear by them, others think it's a load of hooey. Thing is, there's a phenomenon that people will only see/hear what they want, and forget about the things that aren't true, OR there are "excuses" (if you will... can you tell I'm one of the people that thinks it's a load of hooey?) such as "oh, well you are mostly a Capricorn, except that the moon was rising in the Aries portion of the sky the hour you were born, so you display X personality of Aries instead of Y personality of Capricorn."


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## clairedorotik (Jan 12, 2011)

*Parelli Horsenalities*

As a licensed psychotherapist, and horse trainer, I can tell you that some people qualify for an Axis II disorder (personality) and some don't. My suspicion is that the case would be the same with Parelli Horsenalities -- that is some horses would seem to fit well into a category, and some would not meet all of the criteria.

Hope that helps!

Claire Dorotik M.A., author, ON THE BACK OF A HORSE: Harnessing the Healing Power of the Human-Equine Bond
Welcome to Run With It - developed by Claire Dorotik
Greatest Horse Books Ever Written 



heartscontent said:


> I find this to be the most confusing thing that Parelli's thought of. Some horses fall into several categories depending on their mood, location where you work them, etc. A horse can be bold in the arena but timid on the trail, etc. I don't see how they can lump horses only into categories. However, I have met horses that totally did fall into one of those categories. But some don't easily fall into their left brain, right brain.
> 
> What do you think about horsenalities? Can you personally label your horse as one horsenality?


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## snorton (Feb 5, 2011)

*Horsenality*

I was very fortunate to have a 'trainer' teach me Level 1 of Parelli. The knowledge that I learned could not have been achieved from a DVD or book. We stretched his 10 lessons to over 1/2 a year, due to weather and other committements. That was to my advantage. It gave me a lot of time for homework.

That said, I will touch litely on horsenality. It's not just about categorizing your horse, its about taking that information further to educate both horse and rider. My horse is a LBE. She craves creativity, imaginative tasks and can't stand to be forced into anything. She hates to be bored. You need to speed things up, be enthusiastic and come up with variety in your lessons. 

I was riding her in the roundpen. She hated it, but didn't seem ready for the rest of the world yet. What she really needed was variety. To do groundwork at another location, use obstacles, make games of it, use psychology. And the most important thing I learned was to 'whisper' my commands to my horse. She was terribly bothered if I was direct with my command. She wanted just the slightest of asking. Yes, she is very sensitive. 

With every horsenality there comes suggestions for training methods. If I had not had this training, I could easily have thought she just needed a 'firm hand' I could have escalated my training methods, bits, and my expectations. And, should I ever sell this horse, I can share this knowledge with her next home. 

Just think what the knowledge of horsenalitys could help you with. When horseshopping, you might be able to ask better questions and notice certain characteristics in the horse that would make for a better fit down the road.

I know, you'll just say I'm a Parelli follower. Actually, I try and take the best from all trainers and mesh them together. 

And yes, a horse can have 2 different horsenalities. They can be one most of the time, then lean towards another when taken off the property, to a horse show, etc.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

In some ways I thnk the whole concept of horsenalities is **** about face. There should be a system to decide what sort of "horsenality' the PEOPLE who want to train horses have. Heres an example I've come up with:

the I.D type of person. I.D standing for indecisive ditherer, anyone that falls in this catagory need not try to train horses at all.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Snorton, very good description of how knowledge of PP's horsenalities helped you to be a better leader in your relationship with your horse! , plus will enable you to help other horsenalities.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Horsenality is not a way for people to build an excuse for their ineffectiveness. On the contrary, it is a way to identify behaviours from which to build a strategy to then become more effective. Yes there is also a component of personality which can sometimes be a mismatch for the horsenality. 

Like usual knowledge is only going to help things not hinder just as it was the case when the public school system was introduced.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

the "savvy" horseman need not work in categories, and the "savvy" horseman knows well that no 4 approaches can work the same for ANY horse in the world, as horses are just as individual as humans, and the number of horses in the world isn't a direct multiple of 4.

do level 1/2 of any trainers DIY program (parelli himself, at the end of the level 4 DVD, says the words "all you ever needed to know was in level 1", the rest is just applying things you learned in level 1 to new things) and you'll have all the knowledge needed to create your very own program, entirely adjustable for any horse.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Oh yes lets get all the money we can before we tell them. Would not want anyone to know this is not needed until they spend all this money.


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## heartscontent (Jan 11, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> Oh yes lets get all the money we can before we tell them. Would not want anyone to know this is not needed until they spend all this money.


Well here's most thought on this. If you work with the horse enough to know how they will react and they don't fit into one of the Parelli categories, you can still figure out how much you can and can't push them. If you take your horse to a new location and he/she turns into a different horse then you being a knowlegable horse person would know what to do or not do. How hard to push or when to back off. If you don't...then you should really learn horse language and learn to recognize what and why your horse is doing or not doing what you are asking.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

PP's claim was simplistic or who knows what he was thinking to say that: if you & your horse stayed in Level 1, you're just safe, & not even having fun yet! So, the next levels of skills & character development in the human are needed, unless you want to drive your horse nuts.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

heartscontent said:


> Well here's most thought on this. If you work with the horse enough to know how they will react and they don't fit into one of the Parelli categories, you can still figure out how much you can and can't push them. If you take your horse to a new location and he/she turns into a different horse then you being a knowlegable horse person would know what to do or not do. How hard to push or when to back off. If you don't...then you should really learn horse language and learn to recognize what and why your horse is doing or not doing what you are asking.


Yes and just think I do that and did not spend over $2K on DVDs to get there.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

You do know the definition of crazy correct?

Doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome.


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## A knack for horses (Jun 17, 2010)

I really like Zane Davis's Personality theroy best.

He believes that there are 12 (not 100% sure if thats the correct number) different horse personalities. And he even believes these twelve personalities can mix. (Like a horse can be "The Slacker" with a touch of "The Nail-Biter")

The Parelli Horsenality chart doesn't leave room for the over-lappers, and that is where I think the Horsenality Theory falls short.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

A knack for horses said:


> The Parelli Horsenality chart doesn't leave room for the over-lappers, and that is where I think the Horsenality Theory falls short.


Yes, it does: Linda's horse Allure is in one quadrant (super playful & exuberant) when he's calm, them goes totally freaky about learning something new. Pat's stud Casper is in "all four of them at once" as Pat says. Parelli teaches that there are the simpler horses that present one mode, then that there are the more complex horses.

To add to the discussion: Klaus Hemfling, a very masterful horseman based in Denmark, has *26* horsenality types!


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

Northern said:


> PP's claim was simplistic or who knows what he was thinking to say that: if you & your horse stayed in Level 1, you're just safe, & not even having fun yet! So, the next levels of skills & character development in the human are needed, unless you want to drive your horse nuts.


i'm sorry but that's simply wrong. in level 1 you learn the concept (negative reinforcment; which is "hands that close slowly and open quickly", "pressure motivates, release teaches" and numerous other catch phrases he uses to describe the one thing) and how to safely apply it. and in level 2/3/4 you learn different ways to apply that same concept. but you don't need to spend hundreds of $ on level 2/3/4 to learn how to do that, you just need an imagination.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

Northern said:


> Yes, it does: Linda's horse Allure is in one quadrant (super playful & exuberant) when he's calm, them goes totally freaky about learning something new. Pat's stud Casper is in "all four of them at once" as Pat says. Parelli teaches that there are the simpler horses that present one mode, then that there are the more complex horses.


"huh, how interesting!" because in one of the recent savvy club DVDs she does some stuff with allure to teach strategies for one horsenality. and if pat himself says a horse can be all horsenalities at once, which would mean the horse at the time had an inconclusive (inconclusive in that you can't be both applying right brain methods while applying left brain methods, and you can't apply introvert methods as you can extrovert ones) horsenality by parelli's standards, what's the point of horsenality? other than money, of course.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

christopher, Pat says "All 4 at once" tongue-in-cheek.

As for no one needing to buy beyond Level 1 pack, because "All you need is imagination!": Imagination in concert with being a horse's leader often takes a lot of time & effort to develop. 

Also, Level 1 is not demanding a high quality of feel & leadership of the human; Level 2 is all about quality manifesting. You *could* say that a person with imagination will figure out what Level 2 is about without being told, same with Level 3, etc., & fab if someone can, but obviously many need the next level pack to progress.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I would be surprised if most people can progress without any other education beyond level 1 - now that would be a miracle! 

Although it has already been said by Northern and others, a horse may fall into more than one quadrant and that's the whole idea behind it. There's lots of room for overlap and being a mathematician, the combinations of horsenalities is a very big number indeed. The horse's behavior is charted and also whether the behavior is mild or extreme. So now there is a nomenclature to decide what the behavior is and then a strategy to apply so that you can be successful.

The whole idea is to determine what is happening and then what to do about it at any given moment. That's what makes somebody good and somebody not so good no matter what type of training you're doing. For instance, if your horse is refusing to go somewhere because he is afraid versus he doesn't want to go because he doesn't respect you I think there would be different approaches to dealing with this situation. Now let's say the horse is afraid and running about like a crazy arab you might try going back and forth or working in a traveling circle. Then the crazy arab disappears and now he begins to buck and won't go forward. Hmm probably need to change the strategy. I've known this like other people for many years but there are lots of people who don't and horsenality is just another way to help people get that skill - no magic at all. 

It's Einstein's quote: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I see horse people doing that all the time. The horse is bitting me so I'll hit him ah the horse is bitting me again so I'll hit him... see the problem


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I saw some comment about it costing $2000 to learn about horsenality. Now come on where does that come from - honestly. You can buy the Sucess Series DVD for about $50 which is less or the same cost as a one hour lesson. 

It would be really great to have an actual discussion about horsenality without all the silly bashing. If you need to learn something then it will generally cost you money - fact.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> I saw some comment about it costing $2000 to learn about horsenality. Now come on where does that come from - honestly. You can buy the Sucess Series DVD for about $50 which is less or the same cost as a one hour lesson.
> 
> It would be really great to have an actual discussion about horsenality without all the silly bashing. If you need to learn something then it will generally cost you money - fact.



First if you go back and read you would find the comment of the cost was in response to the all you need in level 1&2 but you do not find that out until you get through level 4. Then all the other stuff like horsenality and such. 

Just the DVDs for all this will run at about $2K that is if you are a member which is anouther $200-$240/year. Then there are the clinics and so on which will cost you even more. In the end you are much better off just going out and getting a GOOD trainer.

If all you are going to do is try and learning horsenality you still are not going to be where you need to be. First you can learn what you need working with a good trainer. 

This is just anouther money making scam by not only PP but any other clinician who will try and sell you something like this. I have looked into this when it first came out. Trying it out on several of my horses. I can look at their pedigrees and get more incite into them then this will give.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

TheLovedOne said:


> I would be surprised if most people can progress without any other education beyond level 1 - now that would be a miracle! But our kids'll be fine if we just teach them to read, "See Spot Run!", won't they? :lol: Although it has already been said by Northern and others, a horse may fall into more than one quadrant and that's the whole idea behind it. There's lots of room for overlap and being a mathematician, the combinations of horsenalities is a very big number indeed. Thank you, TLO!The horse's behavior is charted and also whether the behavior is mild or extreme. So now there is a nomenclature to decide what the behavior is and then a strategy to apply so that you can be successful.
> 
> It's Einstein's quote: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
> 
> I see horse people doing that all the time. Who can truthfully say they haven't/haven't done it themselves? The horse is biting me so I'll hit him ah the horse is biting me again so I'll hit him... see the problem


I think that we've presented the actual facts on horsenality. Cost is really a separate issue. Likewise, whether Pat was cheating people by making Levels packs beyond L1. I mean, if you don't get further packs, you only have one lone little certificate to hang on your wall, & one lonely red string!:wink:


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

*Havent read the entire thread* but i think he's got alot of neat, handy ideas. Now i know alot is common knowledge, but they've laid it out in a step-by-step format that's relatively simple to follow & given things catchy names so that people can learn & understand easier.
I dont believe that you should be an expert at all the games before getting into the saddle, but it's neat to learn/see different ways of doing things and incorporating them into you own "training style".
As for the "horsenalities", it makes sense to me. I recently watched a video on it (my friend is a member of the Savvy club so i just borrow from her ha ha if i want to see something) and it was interesting to see how he works with the 4 different kinds.

Again, alot of the stuff he does is so totally simple that it's amazing lol but most people just dont think of it. Horses arent machines, therefore they are subseptible to mood changes & it's all a matter of how you handle the situation by changing your tactic every time the horse changes theirs & being able to _notice _the changes. 
Some horse can be primarily left-brain thinkers, but when they're put into certain situations their right brain takes over & instinct kicks in. Personally, i think leftbrain introverts are hilarious horses. 
My 09 filly Mouse was like that. She would literally lay down when she didnt want to do something ha ha but never got spooky or out of control. She was totally a leftbrain introvert, or as i liked to term it, a ****-head!


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I think I paid a 200-300 for the entire levels pack not 2000 but hey even good trainers cost money. Again of course you do need a person to help there's no disputing that.

Oh yes I certainly have done stupid things myself out of desperation  Like why do I have such a giant warmblood that keeps out-smarting me LOL. I guess that which does not kill you makes you stronger...  or something like that.

You are right lilruffian your thread is totally correct. Those leftbrain introverts are tough for me and that warmblood is LBI mostly until he's terrified and then it's a RBE and wow can he jump! 

Can anyone think of an example of horsenality gone wrong? I knew these women who kept saying their horse was an extrovert but the horse wasn't she is an introvert that becomes an extrovert when she loses her confidence. So they kept treating her like an extrovert which just turned her into a flighty little mess.


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

TheLovedOne said:


> Can anyone think of an example of horsenality gone wrong? I knew these women who kept saying their horse was an extrovert but the horse wasn't she is an introvert that becomes an extrovert when she loses her confidence. So they kept treating her like an extrovert which just turned her into a flighty little mess.


 Thats just what i mean! People can cause more issues when they keep treating every horse the same way & dont know how to help the horse along. It's good to know how to deal with every change in their attitude and adjust your own manner so that they dont turn into a "flightly little mess"


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Thing is that you can not always change things. There are more times then not that the horse needs to learn that what is going on is fine. They need to also learn how to deal with new things and not change to fit them all the time.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Yes learning to identify and modify are definitely necessary. Some people do it intuitively. 

I don't think I completely understand what you mean NR it could be we'll have to agree to disagree. 

However, I do think that changing you're approach can be beneficial and produce a much better outcome. It's not that you're catering to or enabling bad behavior. Rather you change or adjust to get a positive outcome and move the relationship forward. Remember the definition of insanity


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I think when you 'categorize' a horse, it is easy to make excuses for his behavior because he is 'left or right brained'...sorry folks, a horse is a horse...yes, he does have unique qualities and charactoristics, but in the end he is still the same 1100 lb fight or flight instinct based animal. I hate when people try to humanize an animal to make him "fit" into his own agenda, or mindframe...treat him like a horse first and foremost, earn his respect, and treat him well, and you will both work well together.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> Thing is that you can not always change things. There are more times then not that the horse needs to learn that what is going on is fine. They need to also learn how to deal with new things and not change to fit them all the time.


QFT.

recently did some stuff with a parelli womans horse, pretty bad at ground work & dull to ride. and at one point while i was trying to circle game (lunge) her she threw her head up & reared etc. then the woman said according to her horsenality she's just "offended" & that according to her horsenality it was because i asked for a halt trot transition (i "rushed" her apparently)

what is this? the good horse(wo)man should know that dominant behaviour is simply unacceptable *regardless of horsenality*, and that exuberant yet obedient behaviour is brilliant *regardless of horsenality* and that fearful behaviour can be solved by building the horses self confidence *regardless of horsenality*.

that's why i choose to *disregard horsenality* and do things with a more situational approach.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

christopher said:


> QFT.
> 
> recently did some stuff with a parelli womans horse, pretty bad at ground work & dull to ride. and at one point while i was trying to circle game (lunge) her she threw her head up & reared etc. then the woman said according to her horsenality she's just "offended" & that according to her horsenality it was because i asked for a halt trot transition (i "rushed" her apparently)
> 
> .


My Point exactly...horse has been 'excused' from working because she is offended...really? horses DO NOT think like that!!! Stop humanizing your horses, be their leader!!!


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

exactly right m2p


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

christopher said:


> the good horse(wo)man should know that dominant behaviour is simply unacceptable *regardless of horsenality*, and that exuberant yet obedient behaviour is brilliant *regardless of horsenality* and that fearful behaviour can be solved by building the horses self confidence *regardless of horsenality*. Yes, just what Parelli says!.




It's just that dominant behavior is LBI, exuberant yet obedient is LBE, fearful behavior is either RBI or RBE. Humans use language very often to help clarify things.:-wink:

You don't *have* to recognize the useful label for the behavior, christopher, if you can recognize what the horse is presenting,* plus* know how to deal with it helpfully & effectively. Apparently, by your words, you need no instruction beyond Level 1 & no horsenality instruction. Great!

Just don't tell people that *they* won't find these tools to be necessary/useful, nor bash Parelli for *producing* them (please I'm not discussing the separate issue of cost here!).


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

That is my point also. There is a point at which the horse just has to work and do its job. Now there maybe different ways I train a horse to get that job done. However at the end of the day the horse will do the job. I am not going to stop working that horse to get that aspect of the job done just b/c the horse dose not like it.

Here is an quick example.

One of my mares is a bit slow on the up take on things. It takes time for her to just get it. B/c of this I know that I need to just keep working at it. Once she gets it she gets it and she has it. This has nothing to do with horsenality has a more to do with her breeding. I know what her breeding is and I know what querks this breeding comes with. B/c I know this I keep working at it with her. So the definition of insanity which I stated first by the way so you can stop tossing that back out there b/c with horses you MUST keep working them until they get it. They learn by repetition. I may change up some things to get them there. However there are only so many ways you can teach a horse to turn and role back and such. You just have to keep working on it until they get it.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Horsenality is NOT a way to excuse or explain disrespect or unwanted behavior. Why on earth would anyone think that. It is the exact opposite. If someone needs your help to straighten out a problem - Christopher - then clearly they do not understand how to do things let alone use horsenality. Nice that you would spend time here disrepecting them but I guess you have no trouble taking their money - what ethics.

Anyway I guess you anti-parellis do not want to know what it is really about. So I guess you will just have to stay in the dark. au revior.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

Northern said:


> [/COLOR]You don't *have* to recognize the useful label for the behavior, christopher, if you can recognize what the horse is presenting,* plus* know how to deal with it helpfully & effectively. Apparently, by your words, you need no instruction beyond Level 1 & no horsenality instruction. Great!
> 
> Just don't tell people that *they* won't find these tools to be necessary/useful, nor bash Parelli for *producing* them (please I'm not discussing the separate issue of cost here!).


you yourself don't seem to be the religous type when it comes to horsenality and the parelli program itsself. hats off to you for it.

but i've encountered many people who totally rely on the labeling system and once they find what "horsenality" their horse is, they stick with it, and find excuses like "i don't want to offend my horse" to do anything further (which is what parelli calls "anthrapamorphism"). this inadvertent decision to religously follow a chart and program designed to help their overall horsemanship ironically compromises their overall potential as horse(wo)men.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

It has noting do to with not under standing what PP is or what horsenality is. I do. It is more that I do not see a need for it. I have no problem changing my approach when needed. However when it comes down to getting a horse to perform what is needed from them there is only so much changing that can be done.

Some horses can take more pressure then others. That is really what it comes down to. Again I can tell this from pedigree. I can also tell this from just working with a horse for a short time. Watching top trainers and how they work with different horses. Just think non of this cost me any money.

The problem I see a lot is that there seems for some reason to be this mentality that some how if you do not do everything your self with your horse and their training that you are somehow less of a horseman. Seem to me that is short sighted and the big problem with so many horses I see out there. Horses laying down at show with kids on their back. Horses running off with their riders and so much more. You know I have yet to have a horse do any of that with me. However I also do not have a problem sending a horse off to the trainers. In the long run it cost no more money and a lot less time and you end up with a much better horse. However again a lot of people do not want to do the work it takes to find a good trainer then when they do send a horse off to the trainers they do not do what is needed past dropping the horse off.

I have seen some many horses ruined by people who think that PP or some other clinician program will be all they need. There are several of these people who I will not trail ride with or if they are at shows I head to the other warm up area. Their horses always cause problems and they have no idea of what to do to correct it. They just seem to think if they lunge them some more it will all be good.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

TheLovedOne said:


> Nice that you would spend time here disrepecting them but I guess you have no trouble taking their money - what ethics.
> 
> Anyway I guess you anti-parellis do not want to know what it is really about. So I guess you will just have to stay in the dark. au revior.


ethically i cannot endorse learning from a DVD. a trainer in person is irreplacable.

i charge significantly less than parelli and parelli professionals for lessons and horse training. without compromising the end result.

speaking of ethics, the parelli's seem to think they can deduce the total horsenality of any horse from a small questionare and a computer generated report, which is unethical because if (god forbid) they're wrong, it's going to create huge "fear, frustration, feeling like a failure, lack of fun therefore lack of funds" in both the human and horse in question. this is highly negligent in my opinion.

what is it *really* about then? is there more to horsemanship that helping the horse understand how to appropriately interact with humans? and perform their personal best for us, because they understand what we want and we've invested the time to build a working partnership with them?

"reasure the horse when it gets scared (RBI/RBE) and work towards a goal when the horse isn't scared (LBI/LBE)"... that's all the "horsenality" report *should* say. but everyone knows that so they wouldn't make any money out of it. so they decided to complicate it beyond practicality, as a selling point.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*I know, but those are the wackos!*



christopher said:


> you yourself don't seem to be the religous type when it comes to horsenality and the parelli program itsself. hats off to you for it. Thanks, I think all familiar with me here know that.
> but i've encountered many people who totally rely on the labeling system and once they find what "horsenality" their horse is, they stick with it, and find excuses like "i don't want to offend my horse" to do anything further (which is what parelli calls "anthrapamorphism"). Yes, I had no trouble believing your story about the wacko "PP student", as I'm sure others didn't, either. I started a thread on another forum hoping to discover what factors lead to the manifesting of this particular type of wacko (because it's common).


At this point, I see a few weak links in the chain, already mentioned somewhere recently: 1) Parelli needs to put it in neon to use the most broke thing you can, if you're a gunsel. 2) gunsels especially, need mentors, in the flesh, to get someone safely & successfully through L1 at least. 3) students who weren't qualified got strings/certificates, or maybe lied about having gotten them. I had a hard time getting the facts on it.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

Northern said:


> At this point, I see a few weak links in the chain, already mentioned somewhere recently: 1) Parelli needs to put it in neon to use the most broke thing you can, if you're a gunsel. 2) gunsels especially, need mentors, in the flesh, to get someone safely & successfully through L1 at least. 3) students who weren't qualified got strings/certificates, or maybe lied about having gotten them. I had a hard time getting the facts on it.


i agree but i doubt this will happen. parelli advertises his program as "the ultimate way to train your horse", so he'd never openly and freely advertise using an already trained horse.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

If you tried this with any of my horses they would look at you like you are crazy. I do not even lunge my horses. Can you even begin to think what they would do if I started doing all this stuff with them?


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

christopher said:


> i agree but i doubt this will happen. parelli advertises his program as "the ultimate way to train your horse", so he'd never openly and freely advertise using an already trained horse.


But, he* used* to tell people that they should! It was understood that you were to use a well-broke horse, although when I first got that info was over 10 years ago, so I don't know when that directive disappeared. TLO told me that it's not in the new Level 1-2, (third one, second revision) either.

I thought of one more thing: PP should not claim "Results Guaranteed!" for the program, because 1) a guarantee means nothing unless it's $-back. 2) No matter if someone follows the program to the letter, he may never become more than a mediocre horseman. It's like guaranteeing success in any sport or art; you can't, because some people, regardless of the effort they make, won't rise above mediocrity. 

Come to think of it, perhaps this is why/partly why the PP wacko phenom exists. :shock:


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

i think it's entirely why the PP wacko's exist. they 100% follow the program without taking time to adjust it to the individual horse. then they come up with weird & crazy excuses justifying their poor results.

truth is any program can get you brilliant results, if it's done correctly and adjusted to your horse's individual requirements. PP, CA, you name it. even the "unnatural", "normal" or "traditional" horsemanship gets you great results alongside "natural" horsemanship, as long as it's implemented appropriately for the individual horse.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

christopher said:


> they 100% follow the program without taking time to adjust it to the individual horse


"if you take the time it takes, it takes less time!"
:lol:


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

After reading the comments after I left last night, I don't disagree with what has been said. I have seen the wackos out there and they tend to be people that have just started riding in the last 3 or so years. There are lots of things that I think are weak in the Parelli campaign but I also think that people (for some reason beyond my comprehension) walk away with ideas like I NEED to work on the ground for five hours before I can ride - OMG. I hardly do much on the ground either especially if I don't have to... I usually just check them out and up I go; however, I do find teaching them things on the ground first very useful like forehand/hindquarter yields, stopping and even shortening and lengthening strides etc.

What frustrates me however is the misinformation about what PP is and that just rubs me the wrong way. Great have opinions. I'm all for that. But I can't stand it when people say things like a previous poster that horsenality is humanizing the horse when it is not. I hate that just as much as I hate the wackos. Having said that I have been riding for nearly 40 years and I worked with a horse trader who retrained and trained horses for resell when I was a teenager. I have seen way worse things then what PP students do - way worse. Even recently a local trainer told me that he got a horse from someone locally that is considered by many a good trainer and the poor horse was so ****ed up that nobody could get a bridle on it. Isn't that great and someone paid for that. So it's not all happiness and sunshine when you send your horse to a trainer either. I don't know what the solution is but there are lots of professions out there that at least make an attempt to improve things for the consumer and I simply do not see that in the horse world at all. In fact all I do see is a lot of bad talk and misinformation. So I guess I think the PP wackos are just as bad as the people spreading misinformation. 

Furthermore, I wouldn't have a problem getting help from a trainer if I needed it either but the only problem is that these good trainers are very hard to find. I can only think of one locally and three a couple of hours away.

In conclusion, if you think horsenality is a bad idea because the inexperienced just don't use it appropriately then I can respect that. But to say that I think it's bad because there are more than four types of horses like get your facts straight.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Gee, TLO, it's nice to have someone join my elite club of formerly one member: not a PP basher, not a PP kool-aider, attitude of fairness to separate the wheat from the chaff, & despises false accusations made of the program as much as kool-aiding. Your first club dues are to be paid by 3/1/ll, don't forget!


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

You are way too funny Nothern! ha ha I'll be sure to give my credit card # and get right on that. 

The term I use is Parelli snob and I still have yet to get a good term for the anti-Parelli people... any thoughts?


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

If only I could read PP basher


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Here's a name for the bashers: 

The Parelli Potty-mouths!

For the kool-aiders:

The Parelli Patriots!

For both extremes:

The Parelli Polarized!

I like the double PP's; apropos, since PP is such a multiple-P-user!


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I like it: PP-mouths.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

i don't like to think of myself as a parelli basher.

just a capitalist conspiracy/marketing scheme basher.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

christopher said:


> i don't like to think of myself as a parelli basher.
> 
> just a capitalist conspiracy/marketing scheme basher.


Yep that would about sum it up here too.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

christopher said:


> i don't like to think of myself as a parelli basher.
> 
> just a capitalist conspiracy/marketing scheme basher.



So let me see if I've got this right...you're a capitalist and you're the only one who should make money in the world. Not that you're jealous of PP  You want to bash the marketing scheme by using misinformation to confuse everyone - yep I think I got that right. Very honorable indeed!

You guys discredit yourself when you speak nonsense. Like I said there are things to criticize but when you speak rubbish that is not helping.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Thing is it is not rubbish. Take a look around. Look at all the PP followers and their horses. Look at PP ride and how the horses he has trained work past the fancy tricks. They do not. They are not correct. He has not proven that the horses he trains do much past the tricks. 

I have no problem with marketing as long as it is correct and honest. If PP was marketing what he dose as trick training I would have no problem with it. If he was marketing it as a way to add more tools to your tool box and not a fix all for every horse and every person training program I would not have a problem with it.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> Thing is it is not rubbish.


When people say things like horsenality is humanizing a horse, horsenality is comprised of only four types, and that PP is only trick training I'm sorry that is rubbish. 



nrhareiner said:


> I have no problem with marketing as long as it is correct and honest. If PP was marketing what he dose as trick training I would have no problem with it. If he was marketing it as a way to add more tools to your tool box and not a fix all for every horse and every person training program I would not have a problem with it.


There are so many trainers out there that market themselves as good and they are not. They steal, lie, cheat and abuse so what are you doing about that. PP may not be all sunshine and lollipops but neither is most of the horse world. So stick to facts and maybe your dream will also come true. 

I can't speak to all the PP marketing nor would I want to but I have studied his program and I can't recall their being a claim that it will fix all problems in the universe. A lot of what he does say is often altered by others quite a bit and I haven't personally heard him so anything too alarming. One of things that I disagree with (although I think the PP corporate line is changing on this one) is that anyone can teach a horse (and maybe somewhere it is said that through PP this is possible - I don't know). But that alone is rubbish. In fact, few people are good at it and then even fewer are excellent at it. It's kind of a weird thing to do with your time in the modern world. However, I do think that many people can learn how to communicate with a horse that has already been taught.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> When people say things like horsenality is humanizing a horse, horsenality is comprised of only four types, and that PP is only trick training I'm sorry that is rubbish.
> 
> *Take a look at his clinics. Take a look at how he rides. What do you see. I see a person bouncing a ball jumping tables and barrels and trying to do dressage and reining maneuvers incorrectly at that. Trying to put a horse into any category is a bunch of BS. No one horse is going to fit in to any category all the time. If they change all the time then they are not one thing or the other they are just horses. Treat them for what they are an you will get much further down the road with them.*
> 
> ...


Take a look at the advertising done on this forum along by PP. "Magnificent new training program for your horse" I believe is the new one now. A few months ago it was "the only training program you will ever need"


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> Take a look at the advertising done on this forum along by PP. "Magnificent new training program for your horse" I believe is the new one now. A few months ago it was "the only training program you will ever need"


I'm not disputing this nor do I really care how they get people to consider their program. We really need to stick to the facts so that there is less BS out there. I'm sure that you can see that and if not then I wonder about what you are really trying to achieve. I read your posts and I don't think that you are one of those dishonest types and I think you do know a thing or two . If there is anything that I can impress upon you I hope that it is how important it is to stick to the facts. Otherwise, you just end up looking bad by discrediting yourself and everyone runs to the other guy whether or not it is good. So you see.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Well where I live there are not lots of good trainers there are lots of dishonest trainers, breeders, - horsepeople. I wish it were not that way.

You're entitled to your opinion about whether or not PP is a good rider or not. I've seen way worse out there! Further what do you know about dressage anyways... I thought you're a reiner - come on please.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> I'm not disputing this nor do I really care how they get people to consider their program. We really need to stick to the facts so that there is less BS out there. I'm sure that you can see that and if not then I wonder about what you are really trying to achieve. I read your posts and I don't think that you are one of those dishonest types and I think you do know a thing or two . If there is anything that I can impress upon you I hope that it is how important it is to stick to the facts. Otherwise, you just end up looking bad by discrediting yourself and everyone runs to the other guy whether or not it is good. So you see.


What do you think he is trying to get when those clams? If that was a product out there for sale it would have multiple law suits going on. B/C it is horse related it seems people want to give it a pass. He makes a clam that is program is the only one you need. At what point is that not BS and at what point is that not a lie or dishonest?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> Well where I live there are not lots of good trainers there are lots of dishonest trainers, breeders, - horsepeople. I wish it were not that way.
> 
> *There are a lot out there. That is why it is important to know the difference and what it things should look like.*
> 
> You're entitled to your opinion about whether or not PP is a good rider or not. I've seen way worse out there! Further what do you know about dressage anyways... I thought you're a reiner - come on please.


You think just b/c I am a reiner that I do not know what dressage is and what is should look like? Now who is being....


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I think that whether or not PP is the only program people will need is really only your opinion and nothing more. If a trainer takes your horse in for training and then spends about two minutes tying him up and putting him back that is dishonest. Why is it dishonest because someone has payed to have that horse started and not just tied up. In two months time I should be able to ride that horse instead of getting bucked off and then told that it is not the fault of the lying trainer. For some people PPs program is probably all they need because they only want to trail ride - I know a few people like that and so what. 

The BS that is spread by saying things that are not true is simply that - BS. The problem here is that you think that your opinion is some sort of fact when it is not. I get it now. That is how the bad mouthing is perpetuated in the horse world in general. I'm sure that you don't like it when people present their opinions about you as fact. I know I would not.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> You think just b/c I am a reiner that I do not know what dressage is and what is should look like? Now who is being....


Now who is being what? Are you claiming that you are an expert dressage enthusiast? What were we talking about ... oh yes BS.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> I think that whether or not PP is the only program people will need is really only your opinion and nothing more. If a trainer takes your horse in for training and then spends about two minutes tying him up and putting him back that is dishonest. Why is it dishonest because someone has payed to have that horse started and not just tied up. In two months time I should be able to ride that horse instead of getting bucked off and then told that it is not the fault of the lying trainer. For some people PPs program is probably all they need because they only want to trail ride - I know a few people like that and so what.
> 
> The BS that is spread by saying things that are not true is simply that - BS. The problem here is that you think that your opinion is some sort of fact when it is not. I get it now. That is how the bad mouthing is perpetuated in the horse world in general. I'm sure that you don't like it when people present their opinions about you as fact. I know I would not.


It is not my opinion. It is how PP is advertising his program. It was his words not mine. That is why I put them in " " I was quoting what his adds said. SO how do figure that is just my opinion? It is on his adds. 

Are there other dishonest trainers out there? Sure there are. However they are not out there advertising they are the only trainer who can get the job done either. That they program is the only one you will ever need.

Also if a horse at at the trainers for 2 months and has not been worked and the owner does not know the horse has not been worked that is the owners fault just as much as the trainers.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> Now who is being what? Are you claiming that you are an expert dressage enthusiast? What were we talking about ... oh yes BS.



Never said I was an expert. Most people are not experts at any event. Even the ones they do. What I said is that I know dressage. I spend probable more time watching dressage as I do reining. I have a lot of friends who not only show Dressage but also are Dressage trainers. Along with H/J trainers and riders. 

Just b/c one person does one event does not mean they do not know about other events. Now perhaps that is that you only do and know only one? I can not speak to that.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> It is not my opinion. It is how PP is advertising his program. It was his words not mine. That is why I put them in " " I was quoting what his adds said. SO how do figure that is just my opinion? It is on his adds.


It is your opinion that someone will need to learn another system for teaching their horse. The adds are not dishonest it is only that you disagree with the content. It is like me saying McDonald's doesn't serve vege burgers because they don't want to admit that the meat they serve is actually bad for people. It is really only my opinion and nothing more.



nrhareiner said:


> Are there other dishonest trainers out there? Sure there are. However they are not out there advertising they are the only trainer who can get the job done either. That they program is the only one you will ever need.


I couldn't disagree with you more on this one. I know trainers who say whatever they have to in order to make a sale. They are the worst! 



nrhareiner said:


> Also if a horse at at the trainers for 2 months and has not been worked and the owner does not know the horse has not been worked that is the owners fault just as much as the trainers.


Although I think that you should attend the trainer's barn etc and I totally agree with you on that one, it is not the fault of the consumer when the seller lies about services being rendered. It's like blaming the patient when the doctor doesn't remove the diseased organ after taking the money. Like that's a great idea let's blame the victim.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I would love to stay and chat - you're a little intense! But I really must run since I have many chores to do before the day is done


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> I would love to stay and chat - you're a little intense! But I really must run since I have many chores to do before the day is done


Enjoy your chores. Mine where fun with all the ice and new snow.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Here's an example of how Parelli Potty-mouths twist something Parelli: PP said that his is the only training program that you will ever need: he didn't say that it is the only training program that is* viable!*

Also, look at Parelli's association with other trainers/clinicians over the years: the O'Connors, Walter Zettl, & others. They're still taking lessons from Zettl, so it's absurd to twist the statement into "only we are viable!"!


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

TheLovedOne said:


> So let me see if I've got this right...you're a capitalist and you're the only one who should make money in the world. Not that you're jealous of PP  You want to bash the marketing scheme by using misinformation to confuse everyone - yep I think I got that right. Very honorable indeed!
> 
> You guys discredit yourself when you speak nonsense. Like I said there are things to criticize but when you speak rubbish that is not helping.


i dont charge thousands of $ for horsenality crap, i tell people to "when the horse gets scared be it's unflapable leader who it can rely on not to push too hard but be consistent, and when it's not that's great" entirely for free...

i may be capitalist, but i don't sell lies and/or unnecessary truths.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I may end up eating my words for saying this, but if PP's methods work so well, let's see him prove it this year against two trainers who have won Road to the Horse 2 times each... 

I know personally I've watched some of his demos and was not all that impressed at the progress made in an hour or two...in RTTH he will have three hours to start an unhandled 2 year old...from haltering, to riding...three hours, that's all he's got...if he can do it, THEN I will be a little more impressed by his methods.


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## CCH (Jan 23, 2011)

mom2pride said:


> I may end up eating my words for saying this, but if PP's methods work so well, let's see him prove it this year against two trainers who have won Road to the Horse 2 times each...
> 
> I know personally I've watched some of his demos and was not all that impressed at the progress made in an hour or two...in RTTH he will have three hours to start an unhandled 2 year old...from haltering, to riding...three hours, that's all he's got...if he can do it, THEN I will be a little more impressed by his methods.


:clap:
:clap:
:clap:

Exactly!


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Let's just not throw bad juju on him to trip him up, okay, folks?

Let's not be hoping he doesn't win, okee-dokee? The ONLY fair way to watch RTTH is to hope that the one who DESERVES it wins!


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## heartscontent (Jan 11, 2009)

It's definately possible to go the 7 games, haltering, and riding in 3 hours. I wouldn't advise it but it can be done. I look forward to see who wins.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Never said I was sending bad juju his way, just said he's got his work cut out for him, is all...Clinton and Chris have proven twice around that they have what it takes to win the competition, while Parelli has evaded it up til now...I'm all for giving the prize to the person who has earned it, regardless of who I'm rooting for.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

What did PP evade? Did you mean that winning RTTH has evaded PP?


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

No he hasn't competed in it thus far...although I believe he has been invited in the past...


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## heartscontent (Jan 11, 2009)

It would be interesting to see Pat win but I really can't even guess who will win. Clinton seems to do well at these type of things but I guess it depends on the horses they get.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

How can we watch *The Road to the Horse*? Is the only way to do the $30 webcast, or will RFDTV or anyone be airing segments of it? 

I don't need to see every moment, but I would love to see the highlights.


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