# Are european horses better than American?



## horsecv (Jan 21, 2014)

The rich people at my barn go to Europe (specifically Belgium) to buy horses. Why is that? 

Why not just get an American horse?


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## freia (Nov 3, 2011)

Ask them why.

They might be wanting a very specific breed, either because they simply love that breed and know what they want, or becaue they like that breed for a certain riding discipline. Some European breeds can be very difficult to buy in the US. Or maybe they are breeding horses and want fresh stock to vary their genepool. Some European breeds in the US are in such small numbers that the genepool isn't sufficient to support breeding. Just guesses. Only they know.

Sometimes it's just peer pressure. So and so has one of those, so everyone else wants one too. Keeping up with the Jonses.

We have horses in the US that can do anything you want to do. If you're looking for a horse that can do x, y, and z, there's no reason to look outside the US. If someone really wants something unique and has the money to importa horse, that's great. Brings even more breed variety into the US.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

My best guess? The horses over there may not necessarily be _better_, but I would be willing to bet that quality horses are more plentiful over there. Here, you are relatively hard pressed to find a truly good horse because most winning bloodlines are imported.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

in the world of competitive dressage, there are far more highly competitive horses from proven lineages in Europe. And, there's the cache of importing.

I must say that I see some really nice , big boned and powerful horses in the photos posted by our European members. they have some really magnificent animals there.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

In Europe, the best horses coming out of the inspections are kept for themselves. The "lessor" horses are allowed to be imported. As a result, the horses from Europe have developed a bit better. When you are breeding from the "Lessor" stock, it is hard to produce the quality you might find over there.

That said, there are some pretty magnificent horses bred in this country, too. However, the price of these animals is often higher than buying overseas AND importing them.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

I know how lucky I am to live in Germany!

I know of people who live in the UK who still import Dutch/German/Belguim horses to the UK for breeding or sport.

I have been able to afford to buy two horses on a very meager wage at a young age. And both of them have been fabulous creatures.

Allison, I do know a lot of horses that go through their gradings and are imported. Don Ricoss, Dubai's full brother who is also at stud, went to the UK and is now in South Korea. 

If you are looking, I would say it's better to go in with contacts to be able to find and be offered these horses. So many aren't advertised because they don't need to be, they're sold by word of mouth.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I would say yes. The problem in America is that quarter horses have been bred to the exclusion of other breeds. If you want a warmblood you have to dish out several thousand dollars. If you are going to spend that kind of money, why not buy from Europe, and have more variety to choose from? Warmbloods certainly are not very common in my area. I had a friend who used to breed them. Her last gelding sold for $30 grand.as a 3 yr old !

Even European thoroughbreds are known for having better bone than American thoroughbreds. I think if you are looking for something more substantial and in that price range you might as well buy from overseas.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

There are a wide variety of breeds available in the U.S. including a Lusitano breeding facility near Houston that sells horses to people all over the world. I think what you are witnessing is an illustration of the old saying that the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

One can find really stellar horses here in the US, as well as in Europe--the people at your barn may have a variety of reasons for importing.


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## HorsesAreLife190 (Mar 10, 2014)

I wouldn't say European horses are better but the training is definitely better. Americans don't put time or commitment into anything these days. Horse won't stay in a frame? Well just slap on a double bridle and some draw reins. They want results and they want them now. Europeans are still following the training scale and riding back to front. Not trying to be rude as there are American trainers that follow the training scale religiously aswell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Not trying to be rude? And yet, your whole* post* was rude, except for the postscript about 'some American trainers' that are doing it right. 

That's like me saying all Europeans stink and are rude.  Except for a few who use deodorant and know manners, of course. :?


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## freia (Nov 3, 2011)

I think OP knows her barn-mates and can answer this question (no need to share it with us, but you can answer it for yourself):

Do they NEED a European horse, or do they WANT a European horse.

If someone is wanting to move up through the levels and compete at a high level in English disciplines, then they can find just what they need in the US, but as has been pointed out, they can get far more selection and better prices in Europe for these types of horses. Do they have ambitions of jumping Grand Prix? It might be worth the trip to pick out one of those dutch Warmbloods, Holsteiners, Oldenburgs, Hannoverians, etc. Want to win at high level dressage? We have the horses in the US. Want to really stand out and make an impression? An import might get the judges' attention for less money than a local horse. 

Then there's WANT. Maybe they're competing at lower levels and want to stand out. a Friesian would do that. they're slim pickins in the US. I want a Fjord. I'm Norwegian. I grew up riding them. I love them. I'd love for my kids to ride them, as they're part of my heritage. I don't need it for anything. I can find FAR better all-purpose riding horses stateside. But I would love to have one - just 'cause. They're a dime a dozen in Norway. They give the foals away sometimes. In the US, it would cost me $3000 for a foal or untrained adult. $4000-5000 for a trained adult. $10k for a really good one. Why not just fly over for a good vacation and bring one back for $3k?

If someone just wants a good horse to ride or compete lower levels with, we have those here in the US.

As for training... What kind of horse do you want? European training: Spanish Riding School - no one will argue about their ability to train classical dressage. The Irish can teach a horse to run bravely at anything and jump it at breakneck speed. I've ridden some really poorly trained horses that scared the living daylights out of me in Europe. As far as a horse I'd put my kids on or that I enjoy riding on the trail, I have never come across better-trained horses than the ones I have found in the US.

It comes down to what someone's goals are and what they are looking for in a horse. European horses (and training) are better than US ones in some respects. US horses (and training) are better than European in some respects. No one can make a blanket statement saying one is better than the other. Just different.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I doubt you could ship a horse from Norway to the Pacific NW for $3000. it's gonna be closer to $10,000 would be my guess. there's the shipping, the quaranteen and some fees. seems to me that's what I heard it costs.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

For your Warmblood horse types for Dressage & jumping there is a more established gene pool of top horses,also there is more known trainers for them there than here. Europe is the origin of these horses:wink:.
That said, the your stock horse breeds are being imported to Europe where they're still pretty new but shows are gaining popularity & becoming more competitive. If they want to be competitive at the higher levels & improve their stock/gene pool though they are importing horses or semen from US.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Keep in mind I know nothing about anything, but my impression has always been that horses in Europe are really built for riding and have good bones and feet. 

For instance I always admired "cob" type horses in the books of UK horse breeds, and a lot of those are grades. Not to mention the warmbloods. And drafts. We just don't have a lot of that in the USA. I don't know why. But we don't. The sturdiest built horse (good bones and feet) I've ever had was a BLM Mustang. A feral horse out of the wild. Why is a Mustang better built than the majority of registered horses in the USA? Sad but true!

I think the person who said we breed too many Quarter Horses to the exclusion of other breeds is right. But I would include Thoroughbreds to that list. We breed a lot of light boned, athletic horses that are fast but don't necessarily have the build to last over years and years of hard riding.

I have nothing against Thoroughbreds or Quarter Horses, but a lot of them have tiny, poor quality feet, light bone, and are build down-hill. They are built like race horses more than riding horses. And don't even get me started on halter Quarter Horses.

It seems like in Europe, they know what a good riding horse should be built like. I wish we had more heavier boned horses and cob type horses over here. 

Don't get me wrong, we have a lot of good horses. But breeding seems to be a disorganized affair of breeding for speed, perhaps some show ring performance, but not really breeding for good, well built riding horses. A lot of people in my area don't even seem to know what good horse looks like. Or they are just want fast horses for rodeo events. But nobody is really breeding for quality riding horses. Especially english riding horses.


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## freia (Nov 3, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> I doubt you could ship a horse from Norway to the Pacific NW for $3000. it's gonna be closer to $10,000 would be my guess. there's the shipping, the quaranteen and some fees. seems to me that's what I heard it costs.


You just burst my bubble, Tiny. Last I checked was 15 years ago...

Could I fit a filly as carry-on? Those legs fold up nice and tight.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

HorsesAreLife190 said:


> I wouldn't say European horses are better but the training is definitely better. Americans don't put time or commitment into anything these days. Horse won't stay in a frame? Well just slap on a double bridle and some draw reins. They want results and they want them now. Europeans are still following the training scale and riding back to front. Not trying to be rude as there are American trainers that follow the training scale religiously aswell.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Do you have any knowledge of European trainers and horses?!

I bet we have more ways of attaching and using gadgets than anyone has ever heard of. If people want a short cut, REGARDLESS of where they live, they will find one.

They certainly do not all follow the training scale.

There are plenty of bad trainers. In my naive days, I had a top rider make me ride my dad's mare in nothing but draw reins, yanking her head side to side, then a german martingale, then a pull down, and triangle reins. 

You're far off your mark here, and I know an amazing Canadian instructor who took me far and beyond what I could achieve with my German trainer.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> Keep in mind I know nothing about anything, but my impression has always been that horses in Europe are really built for riding and have good bones and feet.
> 
> For instance I always admired "cob" type horses in the books of UK horse breeds, and a lot of those are grades. Not to mention the warmbloods. And drafts. We just don't have a lot of that in the USA. I don't know why. But we don't. The sturdiest built horse (good bones and feet) I've ever had was a BLM Mustang. A feral horse out of the wild. Why is a Mustang better built than the majority of registered horses in the USA? Sad but true!
> 
> ...


 
I have a friend who breeds the "old" type sport horses with good bone. The new ideal ladies horses are fine and dainty little things with little substance.

I can provide some links for sale horses, if that wouldn't break rules, as examples.

As much as we have good horses, we have more than our fair share of ones that aren't great from ammy breeders that think their mare is cute. Because there are so many studs, prices are competitive, and therefore easy to pay for. Average mare x average stallion doesn't make for a great horse, it makes an average horse which there are many of and affordable to people who want another pretty mare to breed from.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

People in the UK often go horse shopping in Ireland, simply because the supply is plentiful there and the choice excellent as well as the prices (even including importing costs).

It really depends what folk are looking for. I suspect some breeds are better quality in Europe simply because of the original greater gene pool, for example Shetland ponies seem to be very different from the ones now bred in the US, also The US Haflinger breed society allowed arab blood to be introduced into the breed in the 1980s (two part bred mares were included as pure bred ones) and the offspring are now in the top blood lines, but in the UK would be registered as only part breds.

The tiny Uk alone has 12 native pure breeds and more coloured cobs (gypsy vanners) than you can shake a stick at.

So just in terms of plentiful supply and demand I can see reasons to shop in Europe.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

freia said:


> *Ask them why.*
> 
> They might be wanting a very specific breed, either because they simply love that breed and know what they want, or becaue they like that breed for a certain riding discipline. Some European breeds can be very difficult to buy in the US. Or maybe they are breeding horses and want fresh stock to vary their genepool. Some European breeds in the US are in such small numbers that the genepool isn't sufficient to support breeding. Just guesses. Only they know.
> 
> ...


This. Why not just ask them? You don't need to be rude or nosy about it, and I'm sure they would proudly explain why they chose to import their horse. 

I think that for the average "rich people" at the barn it's more of a status thing. At least, that's been my experience. When I've seen a lovely horse and asked his owner about him their first response isn't "Thanks, he's my up and coming show jumper!", it's "Thanks, he's a <breed> I just imported from <country in Europe>!" The functional details about the horse come much later in the conversation. Some people take those horses and do really well with them, while some people never move up in the levels, always have the trainer riding the horse, and don't do anything that they couldn't have done with a horse purchased locally. But, the horse looks darn good while doing so and everyone knows that he's an import! I'm sure a large part of it is being told by a number of people that the best horses come from Europe. Most people don't simply come to that conclusion on their own...

I don't want it to sound like I'm passing judgment on people who can afford to and choose to import their personal riding horses. If my horse was imported with fantastic bloodlines I'm sure I'd be super proud of that too! But, in most of the instances I've seen the people importing don't do anything they couldn't do with an American bred horse, nor do they have a particularly obscure breed. That's absolutely not the case with all folks, and I can't give a fully accurate account since I've never boarded at the epitome of high end barns. Nice barns for sure, but not top of the line.


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## taichihorse (Dec 19, 2014)

Freia does talk a lot of sense  
One word of caution when buying horses in Europe if you are from the USA. There are dealers who will give you the honesty that they should. There are others who will charge you more than a European because they think you will pay it. It started in the 70's with English people buying warmbloods.(I am an english trainer and worked and trained in Germany and Italy). Many european horses are given hard work to progress and sell when they are too young, and consequently suffer physically and sometimes mentally, sooner or later in life.
Always remember that if you are going to buy the top horse in your discipline you should be able to ride at least to that level if you plan to work the horse on your own. Otherwise the horses level will drop to your level. 
Always a good idea to watch numerous videos of horses before you plan your trip. For upper level horses just google horses name, that will give you some insights.
I have seen hundreds of super horses in the USA.


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

im not sure about horses as much, but I have found that when someone is importing something they can get from down the street, it is simply because they have the means to do so, and want to be able to tell folks that they did. 

OR, it is because they see something very specific coming from a specific breeder, and for what ever reason they have decided that is what they want. 

Now..... that said, and I can not comment here on horses, but in dogs, specifically the German Shorthair Pointer, and some of the other continental breeds, many will go to Europe, for breeding stock because we as americans, have modified/evolved specific traits into a given breed to fit our needs. At some point it makes sense to go back to the source to regain some "base".....

Jim


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Do you guys feel, in general, European horses have better bone than American horses? 

It seems that way to me (looking in books). But I have no first-hand knowledge so I really don't know. I just know I am always drooling over the European breeds (even their grades) in books because they are so well built. 

I would LIKE to think we have equally as good horses, but I kinda don't think so. I know not everyone values a sturdy horse (or else we would have tons of them) but I really like a horse that isn't too frail in build. And they can be hard to find, at least in Arizona, and I suspect the entire USA. 

It certainly doesn't have to be "drafty," but at least the bone and hooves should be thick enough to look like the horse can last 20-30 years. My Mustang had great bone and wore size 2 shoes. You don't see many horses taking size 2 shoes anymore. A lot of Quarter Horses wear a size 0. :-( 

The Quarter Horse would probably be my favorite breed if only they had the bone/hoof to go along with the muscle. What good is muscle without the bone and hoof to carry it for a lifetime?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Its isn't just about WB's - you can buy a really good quality 'Sport horse' in the UK for a lot less money than you can here because that type of horse has been around 'forever' so there's a lot more of them


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## Valentina (Jul 27, 2009)

horsecv said:


> The rich people at my barn go to Europe (specifically Belgium) to buy horses. Why is that?
> 
> Why not just get an American horse?


because to find what they want Europe is a LOT smaller - so less travel time to find exact qualifications they are looking for. Here in the US you might have to fly to Florida, california, Texas, and New York to find what you want that passes the physicAL exam.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

HorsesAreLife190 said:


> I wouldn't say European horses are better but the training is definitely better. Americans don't put time or commitment into anything these days. Horse won't stay in a frame? Well just slap on a double bridle and some draw reins. They want results and they want them now. Europeans are still following the training scale and riding back to front. Not trying to be rude as there are American trainers that follow the training scale religiously aswell.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Apparently you have very limited knowledge of Americans or you live in some yahoo area.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

From my experience, many European administrators of their stud books are very picky about who can breed what horse and have it registered, and to compete, many times the horse must be officially recognized in the stud book. So that may explain why the quality for some breeds in some countries is better. For example, the KWPN, Dutch Warmbloods, one of the winningest jumping horse breeds ever. 

Some info from the Wikipedia entry on them:

Dutch Warmbloods are sound and long-lived due to the stringent requirements placed on stallions and elite mares. While mild navicular changes, sesamoids, pastern arthritis and bone spavin may be permitted on radiographs, osteochondrosis in the hock or stifle is not allowed. Horses are disqualified from breeding for congenital eye defects, over- or underbite, or a lack of symmetry in stifles, hocks, hooves, or movement.[5]
*Uses*

 


Dutch Warmblood mare show jumping at the Grand Prix level




No registry produced more successful international show jumping horses than the KWPN. In 2010, Dutch Warmbloods were ranked #1 in jumping by the World Breeding Federation for Sport Horses (WBFSH).[10] as well as in dressage.


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## Strange (Jan 11, 2009)

You also have to remember that many of the breeding operations in Europe can function on a larger scale than in the US because it's simply more affordable. Thusly, they can breed more horses for cheaper, weed out the mediocre/average ones and get rid of them and then focus more time on their nicer prospects. In my experience, European breeders run their operations as a BUSINESS first, whereas a lot of people in the United States started breeding primarly as a hobby first, which then evolved into more of a business. A lot of breeders in the US romanticize their horses and their operations and find it hard to "cull" (so to speak) their more mediocre stock, so they end up with the occasionally really nice foal and the rest tend to just be "ok." Nice horses, still, compared to a lot of what you see, but still just "ok" compared to the young stock being trained and shown in countries like Germany and the Netherlands.

My boss worked in the Holsteiner Verband in Germany for years before going on to work for a prominent Holsteiner breeder in Germany and said the breeding "culture" in America is not only a different mentality but also is generally much more expensive to maintain, especially in locations that don't have a lot of cheap, high quality pasture land.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There's no shortage of mediocre horses in Europe!!!


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## IndiesaurusRex (Feb 23, 2011)

Clava said:


> The tiny Uk alone has 12 native pure breeds and more coloured cobs (gypsy vanners) than you can shake a stick at.


Don't I just know it! I work at a large rescue organisation, and this dude (which I imagine you could pay a fair amount of money for over in the US), is currently waiting for rehoming assessments before he can be rehomed for very little money (born at the rescue, been fully trained in groundwork/desensitisation, will be broken in).


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

It's the same the other way round, rich people who ride Western in Europe need an AQHA imported from North America. Some make good, honest dealings and end up with a great horse for their purpose. Some get overpriced rejects that couldn't sell for $1000 in North America.
I guess the reason for buying horses from Europe is that English disciplines have a long tradition there, horses are bred for performance and there are large government-owned breeding facilities that set certain standards.

With the German Shorthaired Pointers that jimmyp mentioned, the reasons are very similar. GSPs and other hunting breeds are very strictly bred for performance. Puppies from registered breeders are only sold to other hunters and are not made available to the general public.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Strange (Jan 11, 2009)

jaydee said:


> There's no shortage of mediocre horses in Europe!!!


Of course there's not, but on average a horse classed as "mediocre" in Europe can still out-jump and out-dressage a large number of American bred horses. Which is why we end up with so many of them in the States and then wonder why the Europeans still kick our butts. 

Also training methods and systems do differ and a lot of Americans simply don't have the knowledge/tools to ride/train a massive, older-style Warmblood over large fences successfully and/or consistently. The more modern types, a bit lighter, cleverer with their feet, trainable, rideable (in the sense that they are lighter and more agile and more naturally through their bodies and thus tend to be able to be ridden/trained in the more "American" style) get super pricey because of those factors.

Dressage I know less about so I can't really comment.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Lets not forget that Beezie Madden kicked a lot of European butts last year when she became the first woman to win the Longines King George V Gold Cup at Hickstead - and that is one heck of a challenging course. The US has some excellent riders, trainers and facilities
I have seen riders from both sides of the pond and on the whole the US riders are if anything better trained than many European ones
What's needed here are more good affordable horses for the lower level riders to encourage them to get involved - I have seen horses here for sale at $13K to $20K that are very nice but would only be worth $5K to 8K in Britain because there's so many of them
Another advantage in the UK especially is that unless you live in one of the furthermost areas there you can easily get to a competition every weekend all year around and drive to Europe to compete there too if you want too. Riders here in CT tend to relocate to Florida for the winter to compete - but how many can afford to do that.


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## taichihorse (Dec 19, 2014)

jaydee;697821
I have seen riders from both sides of the pond and on the whole the US riders are if anything better trained than many European ones
[/QUOTE said:


> I am sure I will not be on my own to be disappointed by your ridiculous statement, why are you so critical of a complete European continent and its riders and trainers?
> Yes I am a European instructor, yes I have been in the USA for about six months every year for the last ten years.
> Why not just admit that we do some things different ways, them we might all get better?
> And how many of your 'better than European riders' are trained by Europeans.


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

I'm familiar with both sides of the pond too. Grew up and learned riding in Germany and now own my horse and ride in Canada.
Yes, things are done differently on the two continents. I thoroughly enjoyed (and enjoy) riding in both worlds. I do agree with Strange that in general, Americans seem to like their horses a bit smaller and more agile. Teaching and riding in Europe might be more catered to European horses, at least when I took lessons. Apart from a few outliers, the lesson horses when I grew up were all upward of 16.2hh, most were 17+hh. That requires quite a bit more "riding" from a kid that is learning than a little, sensitive 14hh QH.

I also agree that the average price on a low to medium level European Warmblood is much higher in America than Europe. However, I think there are quite a few very reasonably priced horses out there for lower level riders, if people would be more open to looking at local breeds and locally bred horses. There seems to be a consensus that you can only get started in the sport with a Europen warmblood, and yes, this will be expensive. But there are e.g. really fantastic TBs, Anglo Arabs or Morgan (crosses) out there that are much better than their riders will ever be and could take a lower level rider quite far.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

taichihorse said:


> I am sure I will not be on my own to be disappointed by your ridiculous statement, why are you so critical of a complete European continent and its riders and trainers?
> Yes I am a European instructor, yes I have been in the USA for about six months every year for the last ten years.
> Why not just admit that we do some things different ways, them we might all get better?
> And how many of your 'better than European riders' are trained by Europeans.


What's so ridiculous about my statement - I'm British, I spent the majority of my life there, worked with horses, competed at levels from local riding club, county shows, affiliated classes and got my BHS teaching certification years ago. I had lessons from people like Stephen Hadley and Dawn Palethorpe (now Wofford) to name just two from the older generation who were very good.
I've also had lessons here and to be honest I've found that compared to the average riding school lesson in the UK the average trainers here take things more seriously - particularly in correct seat/leg position in jumping. 
I don't think things are that different - maybe some of the terms used are but the end result is supposed to be the same after all at top level they're all competing on the same playing field so no allowances are made for what country they come from
I'm not sure what you think constitutes 'different'?
We get many questions on the forum asking for advice on show jumping, eventing and basic and more advanced dressage and our US and Canadian members seem to have no trouble at all giving experienced, clearly understood information that's no different to any you'd get in Europe


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

As I understand it, Americans starting buying (English) Sports Horses right after WWII. Europe was in shambles, the USA had no war damage, and good European Sports Horses were pretty cheap bc the breeders needed to make some money quickly.
Prior to that time American horseman saw no need to import horses. The US Horse Cavalry who bred American Eventing horses had just been disbanded, but they had been the sports horse providers, as well as the TB racing industry in the US.
Today, if I can be so bold to suggest, it takes a very wealthy European to maintain a European breeding/training facility. In America, not so much. Regarding good grassland, anybody can maintain it or run that into the ground. You have to work at your pastures to feed your stock, or the soil and fodder will play out. There is NO SUCH THING as constantly fertile soil.
I think the true advantage to European Sports Horse training and ownership is proximity of events. You can fit about 5 "Europes" in 1 North America. Our distances between shows nationwide is very large. You will find that most showing is regional, but you still don't get everybody together to find "Best in Show" (any classification) every year for every discipline and for every breed. The people here who can afford to travel all over the nation to show can also travel to Europe to show, and also to buy abroad.
So, I think the thread's topic is too black and white.
I'd also like to point out that where athletic ability is tested, a lot of x-country and Jumping Courses are won by different horse/riders each year. I see the same riders compete but if one country's breeding program was the best, then that one country would dominate. I watch these top level competitions and I could flip a coin as to who will win. The last Aachen Driving competition I watched (on Satellite of course) I saw the track turn into a mudbog, so the early drivers had the advantage.
Dressage is highly subjective. Sometimes the most animated wins, sometimes the judge prefers perfect footfalls.
None of these things are what I prefer to train for.
I guess I get to armchair quarter back this topic bc I don't have the funds to show nationally OR internationally, and I certainly won't be buying a European WB in the near future. I am sure that there are many good breeders/trainers here and overseas, or we wouldn't all be in contention at the Olympics every 4 years. =b


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## taichihorse (Dec 19, 2014)

taichihorse said:


> I am sure I will not be on my own to be disappointed by your ridiculous statement, why are you so critical of a complete European continent and its riders and trainers?
> Yes I am a European instructor, yes I have been in the USA for about six months every year for the last ten years.
> Why not just admit that we do some things different ways, them we might all get better?
> And how many of your 'better than European riders' are trained by Europeans.





jaydee said:


> What's so ridiculous about my statement


Your statement was:
I have seen riders from both sides of the pond and on the whole the US riders are if anything better trained than many European ones

So lets look at the 2012 Olympics results. In general countries seem to try and pick their best riders and horses.
DRESSAGE INDIVIDUAL
1ST GREAT BRITAIN
2ND HOLLAND
3RD GREAT BRITAIN
JUMPING INDIVIDUAL
1ST SWITZERLAND
2ND HOLLAND
3RD IRELAND
EVENTING INDIVIDUAL
1ST GERMANY
2ND SWEDEN
3RD GERMANY
DRESSAGE TEAM
1ST GREAT BRITAIN
2ND GERMANY
3RD HOLLAND
JUMPING TEAM
1ST GREAT BRITAIN
2ND HOLLAND
3RD SAUDI ARABIA
EVENTING TEAM
1ST GERMANY
2ND GREAT BRITAIN
3RD NEW ZEALAND

18 medals in total, 16 won by Europeans, none won by USA riders.
That is what is bad about your sweeping statement.


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

The one thing that really pops out to me though is that riders in America tend to jump A LOT sooner than in Europe. 
In Germany, every barn I've ever been to put a solid dressage / flat training on every rider before they even saw a jump. Here, it seems like a beginner walks into a barn and says "I want to be an eventer", and 6 months later s/he already jumps whole courses...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

taichihorse said:


> I am sure I will not be on my own to be disappointed by your ridiculous statement, why are you so critical of a complete European continent and its riders and trainers?
> Yes I am a European instructor, yes I have been in the USA for about six months every year for the last ten years.
> Why not just admit that we do some things different ways, them we might all get better?
> And how many of your 'better than European riders' are trained by Europeans.


Hmmm....I might disagree a bit, here. As a person who has competed on both sides of the pond, I will also say that American riders are every bit as good as the European riders, and often more effective.

Why? because of our obsession with proper equitation, based on what makes a rider more effective and secure in the saddle. 

What used to hold us back? The fact that for the longest time our showjumpers ignored the importance of good dressage in bringing along the jumping horse. That has been largely rectified. Our show jumpers are now on par. Yes, I think we have been a bit held back by the fact that European breeders, for the longest time, kept the best horses in Europe. But, the big money in the states is helping get better and better breeding stock here.

I will say that the equitation of many european riders (of course, not all) often made me cringe. I often thought sheer determination is all that got them over the jumps intact.

What worries me now is the disintegration of American equitation. The horrible use of awful crest releases, the over arching of the back, and the "perching" we see more and more as "proper" is going to really catch up with us.

When I get a hunter rider who now wants to event, it takes a huge effort to get rid of the hunter rider and start building the effective rider. Sorry hunter riders, but that has been my experience.


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## taichihorse (Dec 19, 2014)

Allison Finch said:


> Hmmm....I might disagree a bit, here. As a person who has competed on both sides of the pond, I will also say that American riders are every bit as good as the European riders, and often more effective..



First of all I have never said that European riders are better than USA riders. That was not my post. I would not write such a sweeping statement because it is disrespectful. It seems to be okay for Americans and British expats to do it though. Its a real shame that people prefer to criticise, rather than do something positive to increase the learning on both sides of the pond. Why does someone not start a thread on that one? Some swapping of riders/staff/trainers for a few weeks at a time would benefit everyone.

It also seems that the FACTS are not simple enough for some people to comprehend either.

So lets look at the 2012 Olympics results. In general countries seem to try and pick their best riders and horses.
DRESSAGE INDIVIDUAL
1ST GREAT BRITAIN
2ND HOLLAND
3RD GREAT BRITAIN
JUMPING INDIVIDUAL
1ST SWITZERLAND
2ND HOLLAND
3RD IRELAND
EVENTING INDIVIDUAL
1ST GERMANY
2ND SWEDEN
3RD GERMANY
DRESSAGE TEAM
1ST GREAT BRITAIN
2ND GERMANY
3RD HOLLAND
JUMPING TEAM
1ST GREAT BRITAIN
2ND HOLLAND
3RD SAUDI ARABIA
EVENTING TEAM
1ST GERMANY
2ND GREAT BRITAIN
3RD NEW ZEALAND

18 medals in total, 16 won by Europeans, none won by USA riders.
Look at the Olympics history, WEG history.

Its the last line now. I hope you are all still smiling by now, and thinking of how we can improve the relationships and experience of two continents divided by a common language, equines


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

Having looked into breeding a lot, I feel like in the States, in order to get that fabled amazing warmblood at a "better" price, a fair number of people are buying Thoroughbreds off the track, and then crossing them with warmbloods. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it has caused a lot of "American bred" warmbloods to be of thinner bone, and lacking the substance of some of the European horses. I know someone who said that she bought a Thoroughbred off the track, because she wanted a warmblood, but didn't want to spend the money to buy a youngster, that it was cheaper to breed. Honestly the foal has grown into something that really does look just like an extremely tall Thoroughbred, very skinny legs, definitely not a lot of bone, had ocd in his hocks, and they are now trying to sell him for $18k. I've found some pretty nice European style warmbloods in the states for that kind of price. I think she doesn't want to admit that breeding isn't as cheap as she'd like to think, and now she wants to recoup some of that money, even though she's admitted that he isn't worth that kind of money. So knowing that, someone who has a lot of money to spend will rather import, and get something that's more European in style and conformation. 

Then there are those that it's all about the status symbol. "Hey I imported my horse from blah blah blah, look at how much money I have". And they aren't particularly picky about what they get as long as they can brag that it's imported.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

Is it even possible to judge individuals who are best? Situations vary from day to day: health, weather, footing, judges, etc. Those who show know that it takes money to go from show to show, so those with less money are often at a disadvantage. Unscrupulous competitors may depend on drugs for themselves or their horses to perform well. More honest competitors may still concentrate on shows where known judges seem to favor them and their horses.

What about rule changes in showing? I've read of riders who competed for decades. One stated that horses of a certain conformation performed well in competitions earlier. Then, rules were changed. Certain movements were no longer called for, while others were demanded. Horses with another type of conformation now had the advantage.

We should, also, consider that different people have varying views as to what makes a good rider. Is a good rider one who can perform well on a horse that has been trained by himself or by another? Is a rider better or worse if he cannot perform as well because the horse he is riding is more limited in its abilities?

If judging individuals is so hard, how much harder can it be to generalize among nations or regions? Good and bad trainers, riders, and methods can be found everywhere. Trainers, riders, and methods can also change over the years or, even, with the circumstances. What one sees at one location on one day may be quite different from what someone else sees at the same location on another day.

This doesn't mean that we can't generalize. But we should be careful about doing so and realize why others might not agree.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

It seems silly to judge the "rich people"'s buying habits from a random barn in the us to which continent is better at the very highest level. Unless the op is riding at the highest caliber of boarding stable and these people are at an extremely high skill level they aren't buying the top level European horses by the top trainers. They're still probably buying a very nice horse that could go a long way, but I don't think who dominated at the last Olympics is their driving factor. I would still maintain that for the average "rich person" it's the overall image associated with owning an imported horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

"Most people buy a horse for €99,000 and €1,000 worth of lessons. Most people NEED a €1000 horse and €99,000 worth of lessons"

If people have the money, they may want to fancy breeding lines that are more readily available, breed or type of horse from Europe. Doesn't mean they're the best riders (or the worst for arguments sake). Just means they could afford it, so they bought it. Do I need an Astin Martin when a bicycle will do? No, but it's a lot nicer to cry in an Astin Martin than on a bicycle.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

taichihorse said:


> First of all I have never said that European riders are better than USA riders. That was not my post. I would not write such a sweeping statement because it is disrespectful. It seems to be okay for Americans and British expats to do it though. Its a real shame that people prefer to criticise, rather than do something positive to increase the learning on both sides of the pond. Why does someone not start a thread on that one? Some swapping of riders/staff/trainers for a few weeks at a time would benefit everyone.
> 
> It also seems that the FACTS are not simple enough for some people to comprehend either.
> 
> ...


Do you really think I missed this already? It is the SECOND time you posted it and it is still meaningless as a method to determine national skills.

What you fail to realize is that medals mean very little. It is a moment in time, no more, no less. To use this as your argument is very shallow.

There are many factors determining who gets on teams, what horses are currently sound and so many other factors. 

If you look back on international grand prixs in showjumping and eventing over the past years, you may have a better rounded picture.

Last Olympics had two dressage medals for the UK. Does that automatically mean that all British riders are better at dressage than the Germans, Dutch, Swedes etc? No, of course not. It was just that moment in time when everything went well for them. The same with eventing. While America did not do well in the last Olympics, we have historically done well. We just didn't have the good combinations at that moment.

So, if medals is all that you look at to determine skill, then be ready to completely change course in the next major show. I just may be a totally different "moment in time" for a different country.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Since the OP asked about the horses, not the riders, maybe I can explain why I think the European Warmbloods are better. 
First of all they have been bred and selected for certain traits for decades, if not centuries. There are state stud farms, but also the small breeders are taken care of and encouraged to produce the best possible. Licensed, performance tested state stallions are stationed during breeding season all over the state, breeding fees are the same for each of these stallions and very affordable, even for the farmer that has only a couple of mares. Mares are being shown and judged by a state commission, the latest once they have their first foal. Highest award for a brood mare is state premium, and many breeders are more than proud when they have one, or, as many,a whole family of StPr mares. Come fall, foals get branded, papers issued and judged and are given a foal premium. Also a state commission drives around to the breeders and picks colts to raise as stallions at the state stud. 
Then there is the performance testing of stallions. 100 days, at a center, so same conditions for every youngster, asigned a steady rider, at the end being judged for correctness of conformation, character, "rideability", dressage, jumping, XC, even a race. 
I think it's safe to say that this system will definitely produce good horses.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> Do you really think I missed this already? It is the SECOND time you posted it and it is still meaningless as a method to determine national skills.


I noticed this, too. =/
_Quote:
Originally Posted by taichihorse 
It also seems that the FACTS are not simple enough for some people to comprehend either..UNQuote:
_ I also noticed that you have NO CONCEPT of The Scientific Method. It takes a bare minimum of 3 examples just to BEGIN to notice a POSSIBLE trend, and then you study ALL available data to see if your theory might truly be a trend, and a great deal MORE analysis in order to prove a point.


Allison Finch said:


> What you fail to realize is that medals mean very little. It is a moment in time, no more, no less. To use this as your argument is very shallow.i


TOTALLY Agreed!!!


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## taichihorse (Dec 19, 2014)

Sweeping statements about USA riders being better than European riders should not be aired if they cannot be substantiated.

I now look forward to you, Allison Finch, and Corporal giving me the proof that USA riders are better than European riders.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I didn't read anything to suggest that either was better than the other.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Better for what?

Until you define your goal in riding, better is a meaningless term. If my goal was to compete at the international level in dressage, I wouldn't look at Arabians and mustangs. If my goal is to ride an opinionated horse on a trail, I wouldn't look anywhere else - not that other breeds don't have them, just my personal bias there.

For the OP's question:

"The rich people at my barn go to Europe (specifically Belgium) to buy horses. Why is that?"

The answer is probably that it is a reliable source of very good horses that match their interests - and wallet. Maybe wallet first. 

Unless the rider is a serious contender at the top levels, there is no 'reason' why they need a top horse. But rich people, by definition, have a lot of money to spend. They drive Mercedes instead of Toyota Corollas because they can, not because they need to.

I didn't really start riding until I was 50, but I took lessons when I was 25 for a few months at a place in California. The stable had a lot of horses owned by rich people. Back in the 80s, many of their horses ran 50K and up. They had a helicopter pad for owners to land on, for goodness sakes!

The owners of many of those horses came and rode them...4-5 times a year. I was allowed to ride a couple of the 20-50K horses just because they were nice, well mannered horses who needed exercise and needed to stay ready to be ridden by someone who couldn't ride very well.

Why does someone buy a $50K+ horse if they will only ride it 4 times a year? For the same reason people buy $12 million homes on Puget Sound, and 'live there' a few weeks each year - because they can.

And yes, some top riders will need a certain horse to progress. I have no personal experience in that and never will. Those riders are at a level where their needs and decisions are beyond me. But you can count on this - lots of rich people buy stuff they have no need for, but want. What is the point of being rich if you cannot flaunt it?

Horses aside - are American riders better or worse than European riders? Guess that depends on the sport and the year. I seriously doubt talent and athletic ability are bound by political borders. I've met some darn good horsemen & women who have never set foot in Europe and never will. Like TXhorseman said, how do you define a great rider? I define it as someone who understands the horse. That understanding has little to do with where the horse came from or breed - or winning medals in anything.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Since the OP asked about the horses, not the riders, maybe I can explain why I think the European Warmbloods are better.
> First of all they have been bred and selected for certain traits for decades, if not centuries. There are state stud farms, but also the small breeders are taken care of and encouraged to produce the best possible. Licensed, performance tested state stallions are stationed during breeding season all over the state, breeding fees are the same for each of these stallions and very affordable, even for the farmer that has only a couple of mares. Mares are being shown and judged by a state commission, the latest once they have their first foal. Highest award for a brood mare is state premium, and many breeders are more than proud when they have one, or, as many,a whole family of StPr mares. Come fall, foals get branded, papers issued and judged and are given a foal premium. Also a state commission drives around to the breeders and picks colts to raise as stallions at the state stud.
> Then there is the performance testing of stallions. 100 days, at a center, so same conditions for every youngster, asigned a steady rider, at the end being judged for correctness of conformation, character, "rideability", dressage, jumping, XC, even a race.
> I think it's safe to say that this system will definitely produce good horses.


That system would never work in the USA. Once Government got involved everything would get messed up.


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## taichihorse (Dec 19, 2014)

In answer to Corporals post please read the following posts
jaydee post, yesterday 1-30pm, third line
Allison Finch post, yesterday, 8-52 pm, first line.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

taichihorse said:


> So lets look at the 2012 Olympics results. In general countries seem to try and pick their best riders and horses.
> DRESSAGE INDIVIDUAL
> 1ST GREAT BRITAIN
> 2ND HOLLAND
> ...


Comparing Europe to the USA is hardly fair in my opinion since Europe has about 50 countries and the the USA is one country. Also using just one Olympic games or Championship is not fair, either. A rail or a time fault which could happen to anyone, changes everything. For instance, at WEG this year in team show jumping, 3.99 faults was the difference between Gold and nothing.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

This post by Strange is what prompted my comment about US riders (as a whole and not singled out into individual winners at Olympic level) being as well trained if not better trained than those in European countries
_Quote: Also training methods and systems do differ and a lot of Americans simply don't have the knowledge/tools to ride/train a massive, older-style Warmblood over large fences successfully and/or consistently. _
I disagreed with this because exactly the same could be said of a lot of European riders and training methods and systems are no different here to those used in Europe
At the higher level where people are affording to import WB's from Europe there is a huge amount of money thrown at training and facilities, we've got trainers in this country from all over the world so nothing lacking in quality of expertise at all. 
The Germans have always had very intense training regimes for riders of all ages but the same can be said for instruction in the US - they take it very seriously and I've seen more impressive riding and training here than I ever saw in the UK at the same 'average' level
If anyone wants to only look at it from the Olympic viewpoint then the US got the Gold in showjumping in 2004 & 2008. I think their horses were all or mainly WB's so obviously not so bad at handling them even back then.
They also managed to kick some butt to win the Nations Cup last year and as someone who was more wanting to find fault with Jessica Springstein because she's backed by a lot of money - when I saw her riding at one of our local venues last year I was extremely impressed. Most of the young riders are now on big WB's and doing a great job with them


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

taichihorse said:


> In answer to Corporals post please read the following posts
> jaydee post, yesterday 1-30pm, third line
> Allison Finch post, yesterday, 8-52 pm, first line.


Can you use the quote function? I must be in a different time zone than you because I don't see posts made by those posters at the times mentioned.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Of course, I can use the quote function, just too lazy to go back and quote from the previous post.
I liked putting in another color, too---guess it's artistic, to me. =D
I DID use "QUOTE:" and "UNQUOTE", so I think that my old College English Professor would be pleased.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Corporal - I was asking taichihorse to use the quote function. I quoted her post when I asked.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

natisha said:


> That system would never work in the USA. Once Government got involved everything would get messed up.


 
Actually, it's not that bad. Government, state gov in this case, took over stud farms that belonged to royalty way back when, and pay the people who work there. Everything else is up to the breed association.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

We don't steal business property, at least we DIDN'T until New London, CT. We don't recognize anybody in the USA as Blooded Royals. Although I can name political families here who wish that we called them that. That was one the purposes of our Revolution. =/


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Who said anything about stealing?
These stud farms were mainly run by one member of royal families, and when this person gave up, for whatever reason, health, lack of funds, death, these places were in danger of going under.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Actually, it's not that bad. * Government,* state gov in this case, *took over *stud farms that belonged to royalty way back when, and pay the people who work there. Everything else is up to the breed association.


You didn't say that the families had died out with no heirs to inherit the property, therefore they defaulted into the hands of the government. Although, here, there would have been some search for an inheritor and probably a suit would have been begun by somebody would believed that he or she WAS the heir to the property.
Still sounds like the government didn't bother to find an heir OR a buyer, just decided that the personal property wasn't personal any more.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

It was done to PRESERVE breeding programs, not to take anything away from anybody. Google "Marbach state stud", that's one of them, with an excellent Arabian breeding program, that would have been lost otherwise.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

So...maybe the Spanish School in Vienna should have given their stock to General Patton bc he saved them.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Taichi, just curious....what level of BHS certification do you hold?


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Corporal said:


> So...maybe the Spanish School in Vienna should have given their stock to General Patton bc he saved them.


 The Spanish Riding school still exists today. 
I really don't get it why you argue with me about this subject. I was just stating facts.


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## freia (Nov 3, 2011)

Since this discussion is getting a little heated, I hope I won't get pummeled for my general analysis below.

Getting back to the "Are european horses better".
I think it's an interesting topic. I too, have extensive riding experience on both sides of the pond. I like both. Like I said earlier - neither is better, only different.

Here is my very general, and also very subjective breakdown. Better? That depends. What are you looking for:

-Trail horse: I'm going to call it a draw. Wow, I've ridden some amazing, "bombproof" Appys, QH, Morgans, Arabs in the US. Holy smokes, such increduble, smart, sane, surefooted stock. But then, I've been on some pretty impressive, fjords, Døle, Icelandics, and Welsh Cobs in Norway too across some pretty nasty terrain.
-Stock horses for working livestock all day - patient, hardworking, tolerant, smart, loyal, comfortable horses: I'm going to say US horses and training all the way.
- Dressage horses: Hmmmmm..... OK, I'm going to say Europe has more of these. I will also say that the US has some to rival the European ones, just not as many as Europe has. If you're looking for tall, muscular, well-balanced, good proportions, with dramatic movement, it will probably be easier to find one in Europe than in the US.
- Jumpers: Same as dressage. You'll find great quality on both sides, but maybe simply more to choose from in Europe.
- Good pleasure-mount: Tough one. I would say that the quality of the horses is similar on both sides of the pond, but I have felt safer on American pleasure horses than on European ones. Some of the "cowboy-training" does make for a pretty solid mount.
- harness-racing: toss-up. US East coast and Europe has some pretty great horses.
- endurance. toss-up. Has typically been dominated by the US. Europe is doing very well too.
- eventing. Toss-up.


So does Europe have "better" horses or "better" training than the US? Depends entirely on what you're looking for in a horse. I rode European horses until I was 25. The past 20 year I've ridden American horses. I've been quite happy in the saddle on both. I've never found myself saying: "Oh darn, I just really really wish I had that Døle trotter up here in the mountains right now. That would just make my happiness so more complete".


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

The joke is on us here in the states. I've gone to Holland with a Dutch friend and when I was doing the talking the horses were all $50,000 and up. As soon as they realized she was Dutch and SHE was buying, the prices came down considerably. And they quit bringing their culls out and showed her the "good" stuff.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

deserthorsewoman said:


> The Spanish Riding school still exists today. I really don't get it why you argue with me about this subject. I was just stating facts.


I wasn't argueing. I am sorry that you have taken offense. I am an American Patriot and I know the history of my country. It is a shame that many Americans are not taught the reasons that the British colonies revolted against Britain. Part of the reason was that our founders believed that we should have rights that cannot be revoked, to our lives, to our liberty to pursue our labor and it's fruits, and to pursue our happiness. No other country operates quite like this, though other countries have copied some of our beliefs, to their benefit.
No other revolution since ours or after has been the same. The French Revolution was begun by the French Middle Class and was a brutal affair. They sliced the heads off of the monarchy which is far kinder that the ISIS hatchet jobs. One generation later they put Napoleon Bonaparte on the throne.
The Bolshevik Revolution in Russia was also begun by the Russian Middle Class. Stalin murdered millions of Russians including more than one million Russian farmers to starve the nation. (Go figure out THAT one.)
The American Revolution ended with a peaceful building of government. Most colonists didn't fight in it, and many didn't believe in it, but benefited from it, just like today a few Americans are fighting a monster bureaucratic Government, and too many Americans are standing by and watching.
Property ownership like we have here is unique. Our government has at times stolen private property and THAT's not new, either. FDR created the Great Smoky Mountain Park by stealing people's homes.
_Creation of the park forced the removal of existing towns and "not everyone wanted to be removed," Burns said._
Ken Burns shares secrets of Great Smoky Mountains National Park
You can counter with the theft of Native American land. Most "Indians" assimilated into the European Colonial and early American culture bc it was a better life. Ask the people who find Cherokee and Miami and Sioux in their ancestry. The rest understood that the victor gets the spoils, as has ALWAYS happened throughout human history. Sometimes when a victorious army in the world's history would win they would slaughter the losing population. No matter what your opinion is about THIS, it was our government that was responsible. We should have been taught but OUGHT to be reminded that we should never trust the government because power corrupts human beings, and the US Government is still very powerful and should be monitored constantly.
THAT was my salient point, not to argue the history of a European stud.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Holy moly.

I don't think I've ever seen a thread so off topic.

At the end of the day, does it matter?

If they are bringing better quality horses over, it just creates a better gene pool for future horses in America.

Europe may have better quality horses, but that's pretty much because it's so much cheaper to breed and produce these horses.

OP, I'd genuinely ask them what they were looking for, and why they thought/knew that Europe would have them, rather than looking closer to home.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

*Well put, Duffy!*
I am a rabid Conservative American and I like to remind Americans how great we have it, here, though it may not last.
I think that it's a great thing that we can buy and sell horses between countries.
I just wish that the WEG would come back to the Kentucky Horse Park bc I couldn't afford to go last time. **sniffle**
I just came back from a cruise out of Charleston, SC and drove right past it, and it's only a day's drive from my house.
**weeping, now**


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Glad we got that straightened out 
The situation with European Warmbloods here is the same as with QH in Europe 10-15 years ago. Not always the best made it over there, and what came was over priced. But by now they managed to breed up. It took time, and it will take time to do the same with the Warmbloods here.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

When you buy a horse in Europe and have to transport it to the US you're automatically adding on something in the region of $7K to $10K to whatever you paid for it and then possibly an agents fees or your own costs if you travel in person. It's no longer such a cheap horse - especially if the seller added a bit on taking advantage of nationality
The gypsies made a fortune out of Americans who wanted to believe all the romantic history behind the cobs that they were being sold but now they're breeding their own the markets over there for them's collapsed big style
There are some really good WB's and Sport Horses being bred here now - it just needs some tighter ruling maybe on what's graded as suitable for breeding and what actually constitutes being a WB or a Sport Horse


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## Full Gallop Farm (Feb 8, 2015)

It honestly depends on the breed of horse. Most of the horses at my barn are Oldenburgs. This breed comes from Germany and most of the best studs are located in Germany, so that is where my trainer buys most of her horses. Most of the best warmbloods in the world are also from Europe. However if you were looking for a high quality Quarter, Paint or sometimes even sometimes Thoroughbred, you would find the best in America.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Given that most of the top European WB stallions can now have their semen shipped worldwide if you have a good mare in the US you can select about any stallion you like
I can't see why people are still buying anything but top proven competition horses from there - and part of that is because it costs more to get a horse to top level in this country because you have to travel so much more to compete them


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## taichihorse (Dec 19, 2014)

taichihorse said:


> Sweeping statements about USA riders being better than European riders should not be aired if they cannot be substantiated.
> 
> I now look forward to you, Allison Finch, and Corporal giving me the proof that USA riders are better than European riders.


Its now three weeks since my post asking for your statements to be substantiated. You have provided nothing at all.
Maybe the next time you write something you should check out the information first. 
One of my trainers has an excellent quote which I would like to share with you all.
There are those that have something to say, and those that have to say something.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

taichihorse said:


> Its now three weeks since my post asking for your statements to be substantiated. You have provided nothing at all.
> Maybe the next time you write something you should check out the information first.
> One of my trainers has an excellent quote which I would like to share with you all.
> There are those that have something to say, and those that have to say something.


Since this rude post was reported, I became aware of this. I posted my say on this thread and have not been back to it. Ignoring your question? Don't flatter yourself. I simply have a life and moved on to other things.

Sorry your drawers are in such a twist, but as a relative newcomer to this forum, I do not follow your every word.

As for your question, I answered as someone who HAS competed on both sides of the Atlantic. Have you? Has your trainer? US riders are every bit as good as any other county's riders and we have proven it often enough. Any more than that, you are on your own.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

taichihorse said:


> Its now three weeks since my post asking for your statements to be substantiated. You have provided nothing at all.
> Maybe the next time you write something you should check out the information first.
> One of my trainers has an excellent quote which I would like to share with you all.
> There are those that have something to say, and those that have to say something.


I definitely think you fall in to the latter category of your instructors quote. :-|


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## Goldilocks (Jan 30, 2015)

Being from Ireland/UK, which is european, i have to say yes haha. Many Belgian type horses will have irish blood. I think USA breed more quarter type horses because of all the western type riding, where as here the only real riding is english so the horses are bred to be english only.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Goldilocks, you're showing your ignorance of American equestrian culture.

The USA isn't comprised of only the western states, and the vast majority of riders on the east coast ride English disciplines. In fact, many west coasters as well as those in the middle of the country ride English. I've never owned a QH, and don't intend to. There are plenty of other breeds available to the American population.


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## Goldilocks (Jan 30, 2015)

Im sure there is, but my point is that there are more styles in america than Europe. It is mainly only english here, thus the horses reflect that.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Allison Finch said:


> Taichi, just curious....what level of BHS certification do you hold?


Oh, and Taichi....you never answered MY question. You said you were certified on your profile.

According to your profile you are rated. it says;



> Biography
> Qualified to teach the British Horse Society system.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

To name just a few
This is currently happening 
http://pbiec.coth.com/
And then we have companies like this with huge competition sites in Saugerties NY, Thermal California, Ocala Florida & Culpepper Virginia, 
About :: HITS
And Old Salem Farm in NY
Old Salem Farm - Home
Or if you're into Arabians then maybe the Scottsdale Show in Arizona
Scottsdale Arabian Horse Show :: Arabian Horse Association of Arizona
Plus many many more 

There's a huge amount of money put into English riding over here and some really good WB stallions and breeding facilities.
In the very small town I live in I have 6 top class English training/boarding barns in spitting distance.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

jaydee said:


> This is currently happening
> http://pbiec.coth.com/


Slightly off topic, but not - tonight 7pm ET - a 5* grand prix live streaming on the link above. It is held in the US but it has international competitors.

This one class does not prove European horses are better than American but it might be interesting to watch.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

GEE WHIZ. Neither Allison nor I said that one was better than the other. In FACT, we BOTH said, it depends on what rider and team your are referencing.
Everything is always in a state of flux. I am reminded of "Back to the Future."
_Doc Brown: "No WONDER it doesn't work. THIS was made in Japan."
Marty: "All the best parts come from Japan."_
You really cannot make blanket statements.
I still think it's a great thing that we can have commerce between countries and move something as big as a horse between continents.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Many moons ago, when horses from Germany/Holland/Denmark were first creating an interest in the UK, I went over to bring horses back for a dealer friend of mine.

The interesting thing was that these dealers/breeders, loved selling to the Americans because they had more money than sense! 

Whether this is still the same today or not I havent a clue.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

A lot of really awful useless WB's were bought by UK buyers for silly money in the late 70's & early 80's


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## Showjumper1289 (Oct 27, 2012)

Importing a young horse can be cheaper than buying a proven horse in the US, A good jr jumper will cost 100k and upward while in Europe the same horse can cost a lot less.


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## palomino347 (Dec 28, 2014)

Honestly, it's all based on preference. Some people will only go to one place because 
they have been pleased w/ their business before or for another reason completely. Some people believe that if you get a horse from somewhere foreign, you can get the best horses. Honestly, it just depends on the person and what they're looking for. If you are looking for a horse, it doesn't mean you have to get one from somewhere off. Get a horse from wherever you want to..


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I can't remember whether or not I posted but... what is the definition of a "European horse"? A horse that is living and competing in Europe? Does an imported horse count? What about a baby of an imported horse? What about a European breed?

Good horses can be born and bred anywhere, is what I'm trying to get at. xD


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think it mostly refers to Warmbloods bred in Europe regardless of if they're imported and then sold here or bought direct
Apart from that there was the craze for the Gypsy horses that's now almost fizzled out and importing 'native ponies' which there doesn't seem to be so much demand for


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I've noticed the prices on the Vanners have come down to almost reasonable levels now. Give it another 5-7 years, and they'll be a dime a dozen.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^The price of Vanners in the states is nothing short of comical xD


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## MaximasMommy (Sep 21, 2013)

Does anyone really need an excuse to go to Europe and buy a horse?  

I have to admit, those Glock horses look pretty sexy...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Gypsy cobs and vanners are the most abandoned breed in the UK at present - you can get one for free!!!


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

It's not just Warmbloods though. Iberian breeds are often imported too. There is a quite famous classical dressage rider in California who organizes trips to Brazil for people to visit breeders, buy and import Lusitanos.
And in turn, we Canadians go and get our PRE and Lusitanos from California... 

That's just the way things go. In principle, it often makes sense to buy from the country of a breed's origin, especially when there is not a large breed base yet in NA. The standard to which that horse was bred hasn't undergone an "American interpretation", or even the only local breeder's interpretation. As always, it all depends on what you're after.

Even many organizations who rescue dogs don't stay local anymore, but import dogs from Mexico, Thailand, France...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aclassicalpaint (Feb 11, 2015)

You'd have to ask them. But there are plenty of nice horses (I'm assuming you live in America) in the U.S. It is far more expensive to import. Especially quarantine. 
I go to a pretty nice barn - we have jumpers, hunters, and eq horses. None of ours are imported, my trainer just won't waste the time or money on doing it. 
Also, many of those horses are in the 4-7 year old range and jumping 1.20m or more...It's unrealistic to pay all that money for a horse who will break down and get arthritis in a few years.


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## MaximasMommy (Sep 21, 2013)

You can also compare cars in this situation. There are VERY powerful, sleek, nice american sportscars that come in well under 100k, and people are still buying overpriced european sportscars just because of the status symbol dynamic.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Personaly i believe it is probably because of the greater choice of horses in the type they are looking for at better prices.

Or at least that is why I imported a horse from Ireland to the UK. 

I knew exactly what I wanted and knew that I'd have a far better chance of finding a realy good horse of the correct type in Ireland (coloured small hunter) and even after import fees (admittedly from Ireland to UK only around £300) I paid a fraction of what I would have paid for the same horse over here.

For Lenny I paid £1400 from a field in ireland (including transport). As soon as he set foot in the UK he was worth £3000. 
I took a day trip over and in that day trip I looked at 10 horses. I would happily have come home with about 4 of them if my budget had allowed, 1 turned out to be way out of my price range (think extra 00's), 3 were lovely horses that I just didnt click with, 2 were not as described.
To see 10 horses in the UK would have taken ages, involved thousands of miles of driving up and down the country, several days and viewing loads of horses not up to the quality I was after or not as described. Also at the time I was looking the south of england was largely underwater and due to that I missed out on a stunning youngster but thats life.

If I were looking for a high potential dressage horse or showjumping horse and had a restricted budget I'd be hopping a ferry to Europe. Hunter or SHow cob i'd be headed to Ireland, Reining horse or AQHA i'd pop over to the US, Native breed (e.g welsh, fell, dales, exmoor, dartmoor, shetland, Highland etc) then I'd be staying in the uk (well except for the connie i'd go to ireland for)


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

MaximasMommy said:


> You can also compare cars in this situation. There are VERY powerful, sleek, nice american sportscars that come in well under 100k, and people are still buying overpriced european sportscars just because of the status symbol dynamic.


Or it could be that people are wanting something that the very powerful american cars cant provide.

American cars are indeed well known for being extremely powerful and very fast in a straight line, however they are also known for being huge gas guzzlers, known for not cornering very well at all and luxury doesnt just mean bigger!

Sometimes people prefer the handling of the European or the sheer quality of the finish on them etc.

I have to say having driven both a Ford mustang GT and an Aston martin DB9 on a race track I for one know which car I'd far rather go into a corner fast in or which one i'd prefer to drive on a day to day basis and it isnt the Ford!


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

I'm not sure I understand. A good horse is a good horse, regardless of what soil it is born on. The trainer I am going back to breeds very nice, high quality horses who are ridable and have been brought up well but they will also be going for a premium price. I think the majority of people who import, import because they have a much greater selection in places like Holland or Germany than in the States or Canada and for a cheaper price because the average quality seems higher (from what I have seen) in Europe than in the States or Canada. If you are shopping for a school master it is MUCH easier to find one correctly trained in Europe than in the states. Barns here may have a few going upper level and some will say a horse is going PSG but it really needs to go back to 2nd level to get the basics before competing at PSG. Or young horses who are very talented and well bred, again you can often find better quality in Europe for the amount you are willing to spend. American breeders usually don't breed in quantity and their foals of quality cost a premium price. 

If you are spending a good chunk of money you can get more bang for your buck in Europe. Traveling around Europe to different farms is much less costly and gives you a greater range of horses to see than in the States or Canada where it is VERY costly to fly around just to see a horse or two at one barn and then fly to another to see a horse or two. I do not own and have not imported a horse, I don't have that kind of money but when I was in Germany to ride the business I saw was more straight forward and straight dealing than what I have seen in the states. The Germans I delt with may not tell you everything but they won't try to sell you something way over priced that isn't sound. Or say a horse is amateur safe that makes professionals struggle. And if they tell you a horse is difficult, I listen where as in the States I listen but a lot of the times the behavioral issues are rider/trainer created and not from the horse's nature.


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## EpicApple (Oct 19, 2014)

In my response I am particularly directing it on the import of show jumpers, dressage horses and Andalusians. 

The great disadvantage in the United States is that you end up paying so much more for a good quality show horse and you are also faced with a very limited selection of horses in the market. Also everything that is worth looking at is very spread apart in the states. You will find yourself traveling long distances from horse to horse. 

In Europe it is very inexpensive to get a superb quality show horse and import them. If you really know where to look and have good connections you could end up buying a nice 1.20 meter Warmblood for around 10k at the smaller local barns that are privately owned. You can also see and try many horses with little to no travel. Some barns have more than 50 horses available for sale ready to try out, and many sales barns are extensively connected with other barns, so if they don't have what you want you have more options. Another plus is that there is better quality of training more available in europe. 
The airline we work with usually won't charge us for plane tickets if we purchase the containers for the horses (5-6k per container) 

The problem with importing is that you really must know what you are doing and who to go with to make the most of your time. Sometimes getting a representative or traveling with a trainer can be expensive, plus the added risk of being scammed by false vet checks (which is rather common in Spain area) and shady people sending over positive EIA horses.... Which has happened before. 

Obviously those who go to Europe will splurge on something nice to make the long trip worth it. But Honestly it can be much less expensive than purchasing something in the states. 

The reason horses are so expensive in the states is because it costs an eye and an arm to show. Taking care of a horse is also a huge wallet sucker. Training, vet, farrier, etc. Plus the hit that the economy took in 2,000 didn't really promote the breeding of quality stock. We can mostly agree that what is bred in the states when it comes to warmbloods is quite mediocre. 

In Europe you won't really spend more than 50 euros per show and won't travel longer than an hour to the show grounds. You also have shows on a weekly basis. So European horses have the upper hand. 




I wish I lived in Belgium haha but only during the summers.


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

DanteDressageNerd said:


> I do not own and have not imported a horse, I don't have that kind of money but when I was in Germany to ride the business I saw was more straight forward and straight dealing than what I have seen in the states. The Germans I delt with may not tell you everything but they won't try to sell you something way over priced that isn't sound. Or say a horse is amateur safe that makes professionals struggle.


Part of that might be because it is much easier to return a horse to the seller in Germany than it is in North America. In the States and Canada, most horse sales are still done by "handshake" - bought as seen. 
In Germany, the sale of horses is more legislated, and if e.g. you can prove that you were sold a lame horse with the seller's knowledge, it is very likely that you can return it.
So the sellers, too, need to protect themselves and are probably a bit more honest in general.

Funny, cause for everything else you could possibly but (at stores I mean), America has so much better return policies


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Certainly in the UK horse sold at auctions are 'warranted' which means they have to be what it their description says they are plus they have to be sound or any unsoundness declared. They used to have to be safe to be ridden in traffic unless declared otherwise but I'm not sure if that still stands. 
There's an independent Vet on site so you can get an exam and a blood test done before you take the horse away and usually a facility there to see the horse ridden or ride it yourself
Brightwells which is one of the biggest horse auctioneers in the UK allows buyers 4 days from the purchase to return the horse if it exhibits behavior that they list as 'unacceptable', not in keeping with the description etc
If you buy privately there are still 'handshake' deals and a buyer has to very much protect themselves by getting a PPE and a signed warranty agreed too up front.


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