# Green on Green Success Stories?



## DebRVT (Oct 30, 2016)

I have been reading through lots of posts on the forum since becoming active again a few weeks ago. All the people saying inexperienced riders with green horses are disasters waiting to happen is making me a little nervous. I mean - I get it; but assumed with patience and the right training, we would do ok together.
Anyone have any green on green success stories they want to share with me?


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Not a greenie, but wanted to say you're going in the right direction if you recognize that you're green and are working with someone who does have experience. Kudos to you for trying!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

With the right horse and rider combo with a lot of guidance from experienced horse people it can work.

I bought a just turned two horse for my then ten year old novice daughter. At first my trainer thought I was nuts but it took him all of about half an hour to come around to the idea that this might work. 

There was just something about the way the two of them interacted with one another that clicked. We gave the horse a year to mature, during which my daughter trained him on the ground daily and sometimes twice a day with short hand walks and going through obstacle courses. Then when he was three, I hired an experienced rider to "back" him. Then, with the oversight of a trainer, my daughter and I started training him; her from the ground in a round pen and I from his back. Once they were both ready, she began to ride him and further train him. He was 3 1/2 at that point.

This is a calm minded, kid friendly horse. Even when he was young, that was the case. He is now 6 and she is almost 14 and they have logged many trail miles together without a problem. She takes care of him and he takes care of her.

A good result of green+green can happen but, IMO patience, proper selection of a horse, developing clear communication, having good guidance from an experienced horse person and laying a solid foundation are key.


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Green on green situation here and it's going great. HOWEVER, our horse has been in full professional training pretty much since we got him a year ago. He is ridden 5 days a week by the trainer and I take lessons on him (from the same trainer) 2 days a week. I did try not doing training for a couple of months and quickly realized how much we both still needed it. 

Having access to help and training would be the only way this will work in most cases, in my opinion. At minimum, I think it's really important that you take lessons on your own horse if you have a green horse. 

Also, I think it's important to have help making a green purchase. My trainer was able to see the potential in our green horse and knew she'd be good for us; I don't think I would have that same good judgment. It would be really easy to make a mistake with all of the cute horses for sale out there. I always want to buy every single horse with a cute face.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I think it's more a warning to be careful & considerate of the factors & consequences, not a 'given'. Not something to be advised, that a beginner buy a young/green horse, because riding on a large, live animal is potentially dangerous enough without adding lack of experience on both sides to the equation. But if you're in that situation, just be aware, take precautions & take it slow & ensure you have a good trainer/instructor to help & teach you, and someone experienced(maybe the same person) to help ride & teach the horse, when needed.

I am quite an experienced horse person, but when I went looking for a first pony for my kids, wanted something 'tried & tested'(not that I was going to be an overprotective mum... until I considered my kids on horses!). But after looking at & turning down many 'bombproof' and experienced 'kids ponies' who didn't feel right, I ended up getting an 11.2hh welsh mountain boy of 7yo... who had been left alone with no handling or care since he was a yearling. The kind of horse I STRONGLY advise a beginner(or parent) doesn't even look at. The current owner only took him, knowing she couldn't keep him, to give him a chance, as he was 'free to a good home' or going to the doggers. She had handled him at home a bit, given him a couple of weeks with a pro trainer, to be started very lightly under saddle, but that was all.

When I brought him home, I found he was terrified of little, erratic people, among other things. Also found he was seriously terrified of any tack aside from halter & lead - testament to little, rushed training I suppose. My daughters were 2yo & 3.5yo when I got him. So I did put in quite a lot of time in further training, getting him used to the kids, taking him out & about with my horse & riding him(I'm too big, but for very light riding...) before the kids were allowed to even be on the ground near him. He was only a lead pony for a couple of years, & was fantastic for that, but I worried how he'd go when I gave my kids 'free rein' as he was very forward and playful. I ensured they had an independent seat, practiced 'emergency stops' until they were blue in the face, learned to control him while I had the lead(as just as a 'safety chain'), before they finally started riding off lead. He has been the BESTEST little pony! From the first time I unclipped the lead, he put his head down, stuck his top lip out in concentration & went so slowly & carefully! He really babied my kids along & helped them gain confidence! He's taken them all over the place, around town, in the bush, through rivers, in traffic, jumping, swimming... standing on him! 

My eldest grew out of the little tacker then had to ride my big guy(so I had to walk!), until a few years ago when a 13.2hh brumby (hafflinger type) happened upon us. He was about 5yo at the time, handled a little on the ground only, owned by a client of mine, who decided she didn't have the time to put into him. Again, I started him myself. And my elder daughter was a reasonable rider by then, but nowhere near what I'd call 'experienced' for a very green horse. I figured I'd be happy to have him going well & she could ride him on lead within a couple of months... it was winter & I also didn't have much time to put in then. But I reckon he must have been 'born broke' - he seemed to learn everything well in only one lesson, nothing fazed him, I was on his back within the week and my daughter was within a few. I've hardly got a look-in since! She has taught him herself to jump, to neckrein, and all sorts of tricks - including 'roman riding' - riding standing on his back. He's been dressed as a reindeer at xmas, mobbed by kids at the school(I of course supervised carefully), balloons tied to him, flags carried, whips cracked, he's towed kids on skates...

We started them both in a cart a couple of years ago - something I'd never done before. And about then, kids wanted to do formal ponyclub, and they were both good riders with 'soft hands' by then, so we started the ponies in bits for the first time, because the PC rules stipulated it. They'd only been ridden in halters until then.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Semi-green on semi-green here, and we're doing well. I had horses when I was young, but not for 20 some years. Bought a mare almost a year ago who was supposed to be bombproof. She was not. She was broke, but was unpredictable, spooky, and lacked finesse. However, she was 9, and was a kind mare who tried her best. I had just started riding lessons again, so brought my riding coach, then a trainer who could desensitize her. 

When you say green on green, I picture a 16 year old with romantic ideas of riding a mustang and wanting to raise and train a foal all by herself. I have a neighbor like that. Her horse has bitten, kicked, fallen on top of her, reared, stomped on her, name it. She's 16 and has had at least half a dozen concussions. When she decided it would be cute to take him for a swim, he nearly drowned her. Stepped on her head under water. IF this girl survives this horse, he will be ruined for anyone else anyway. He has no respect for her or anyone else. Her parents are terrified that the horse will kill her. 

Now, if you're talking about a horse that is green, to me, that means he is broke to ride, but lacks finesse. A green rider is similar. They might not be a total beginner, but they still have a lot to learn. With the help of someone who knows what they are doing, and if the personalities are compatible, it might work. However, I sure am glad we bought a very well-trained horse for my daughter. She was only 11 and while her horse is forward, he has all the buttons and is a really fun ride for that reason! When she learns something new at her riding lessons, she can ask him to do the same, and he knows what she is asking. 

For that reason, I think that if a green rider has a green horse, it's important that they also take lessons on a well-trained horse. If you can't "feel" how it is when your horse does the right thing, how will you teach them to do it?


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Acadianartist said:


> When you say green on green, I picture a 16 year old with romantic ideas of riding a mustang and wanting to raise and train a foal all by herself. I have a neighbor like that. Her horse has bitten, kicked, fallen on top of her, reared, stomped on her, name it. She's 16 and has had at least half a dozen concussions. When she decided it would be cute to take him for a swim, he nearly drowned her. Stepped on her head under water. IF this girl survives this horse, he will be ruined for anyone else anyway. He has no respect for her or anyone else. Her parents are terrified that the horse will kill her.


:eek_color::eek_color::eek_color::eek_color: A horse that literally stood on my head would be for sale! (of course I wouldn't be dumb enough to swim with a green horse but still). SO scary. How are her parents even letting her keep him?


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I would call mine a success story. I hadn't been on a horse for 40 years when I was given an unbacked 4 year old. However, I had a lot of things in my favor.


I was very experienced with livestock and with dog training.
A friend who is a lifelong horsewoman picked the mare out for me. 
I have no romantic illusions left, really.
I put 60 days of training on her, and meanwhile took lessons on a trained horse.
I worked with a riding coach continually, and although I'm doing all the riding, she keeps an eye on me.

My horse had also been brought up right. She came to me having been handled and cared for all her life, with no significant vices. She is also a basically steady-minded horse. She's no slug, but she isn't a hot headed spookaholic either. She's six now. We continue to make progress slowly. She's a long way from being a finished horse, and may never get there. 

It's not so much that green on green is always wrong, but that the combination of two ignorances usually is going to need a huge amount of skilled outside assistance to get anywhere good. Admitting that (something it seems many novices have a hard time doing), is the first step. 

I believe that the biggest necessity for a novice, and one of the least likely for them to have already acquired, is a developed sense of how to "be" around horses. How to be a firm fair leader, how to stay safe on the ground, how to assess risk, how to read a horse's emotions correctly (and at all times!). This kind of stuff is only accumulated through experience and attentive practice. And that's before you ever swing aboard!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Jan1975 said:


> :eek_color::eek_color::eek_color::eek_color: A horse that literally stood on my head would be for sale! (of course I wouldn't be dumb enough to swim with a green horse but still). SO scary. How are her parents even letting her keep him?


Yes, her father watched the whole thing and honestly thought the horse was going to kill her. It is truly baffling. I can only shake my head. Sadly, it happens. Grandfather gives kid a foal (literally, in this case), parents can't say no, kid watches horse movies and reads books and thinks she can train the horse like she trains a dog... she actually TRAINED the horse to rear. Never wears a helmet. Thinks it's cute that she's the only one who can handle the horse (if you call 6 concussions handling). Seriously, it is a disaster waiting to happen. The horse will probably end up having to be euthanized because he's so dangerous. She'll most likely end up dead or disabled. It's a train wreck, but there's nothing I can do but look away.

My point was though, a broke horse that needs a few more buttons is entirely different from training a horse from the ground up with the hope that the horse and the rider (often a young rider) will "grow up" together.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I think a lot has to do with the personalities of the person and the horse. If the person is confident and horse is sane , it shouldn't be a total disaster. Having good input from a third party goes a long way in the equation too.


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## cbar (Nov 27, 2015)

I think a lot has to do with the type of horse and the competence of the rider. As @Acadianartist mentioned, someone with a romanticized idea of training a wild mustang and living happily ever after is on glue. That is a disaster waiting to happen. 

As for myself, I have had horses for a long time. I do NOT consider myself a seasoned horse trainer. I bought a 2 year old...and I did most of the ground work training myself. But I have been enlisting the help of a trainer...I trailer her to lessons as I want to ensure when it comes time to ride her, there will be no holes in her training. I will also continue to take riding lessons on her too. I only take lessons once a week or two, but it is enough that I can come home and practice. 

If I felt this horse was dangerous or too much for me, I would be sending her for professional training.

So yes, I feel under the right circumstances a green horse and green rider will work out perfectly fine.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I was green on green with my Shan. She put me through the school of hard knocks, though more metaphorically as I only ever had one concussion and that was my own fault from trying to ride out on the trail alone when I wasn't prepared and the horse definitely wasn't!

I did have to learn a lot of things the hard way. But I wouldn't trade Shan or everything she taught me for a world class horse. Though we went through some really rough times, now she is the horse I can trust with my DH, who is a beginner, to be calm and steady.

What I lack is the 'show finesse'. If I showed I wouldn't do nearly as well as the other riders who have ridden and trained with finished horses for years. However, I will also be able to ride out and deal with more vices and problems in a quick and efficient way than many of those other riders would be able to. There is a trade off, and it all really depends on what type of rider you want to be. If you've got dreams of showing big, I don't recommend green on green.

FWIW the same thing has been said about top level riders. Just because you can ride a top level horse doesn't mean you have the ability or know how to train a horse to that level. There are far less trainers who can take a horse from green to world class, and far more who just start horses, or who finish them.


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## secuono (Jul 6, 2011)

I did. 
But I got hella lucky that my gelding eventually mellowed & matured and that I did not try much of anything until that time! If I had tried anything while he was still a loon, he'd be given away and I'd be in the hospital. 
Once he calmed, I started realizing that there were so many things about him that were just like me, general fear of the world, but still trying to socialize, or that he needed to learn through trial n error and doing like I do. With the right kind of ask, he'll try his darndest to get it right, but if you just demand and shove him to it, he will freak out. I tend to freeze, shutdown and blindly refuse. So with that in my mind, he went from a jobless pet who could never do anything to a smart little horse who's up for some adventures and trying new things with me. 
I have nothing but time, no goals with set time limits, no rush. So that worked hugely for us both. Some things he got real quick, others we both tripped over until we eventually got it right or found a new way of trying that worked. Without the rush, there's tons of joy and little stress to deal with. I never thought he would be a riding horse, so if we never got to that point, it wasn't much of an issue. But he was game, so we kept at it. 
We got stuck trying to pick up a trot undersaddle and enlisted help. A while later, he started trying all the new things he's learned to get out of work. Only one of which eventually got me to enlist help again, bucking. And after getting over my fear by going back to square one with him, we're back to doing great again. 
Also researched a crudload on the net, annoyed people with endless dim questions and watched neverending hours on youtube. All kinds of training methods, from the less known to high profile guys and even the questionable. There's something to learn from them all, even if it is what not to do. 

I won't promote any other greenbeans doing it themselves, as I don't want any sliver of a part in them ending in the hospital. But I am stupidly proud of my gelding to be able to get it right with a fellow nut like me, lol. 

Now if he were a hot horse or stubborn and put a ton of h3ll naw in his antics, no way I would of gotten anywhere without just shipping him to a trainer for half the year and taking out a small loan and hauling myself in for lessons. But I learn by doing, trial n error. So I'd try, get beat up and then send for professionals, lol. I may be more shy than a rock, but I still have the personality of someone who wants to do it all herself like a stubborn donkey. =/

I don't teach my horses anything that isn't necessary. So minis do not rear, no kicking, no nothing. Don't see the point in those things, I have dogs I can trick train, don't need horses using those fancy skills on me!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I would certainly say that on the whole its not what I'd advise and not usually the easiest way to get into horse riding but I do know of success stories so would never totally discredit it
So much depends on the temperament of the horse, the support team and the rider's natural ability to pick things up and deal with a large animal that they know could kill them if it wanted too.
By natural ability I mean the way some people just have way more balance than others, being fit and agile helps a lot, not being terrified of 'what might happen' helps a lot, being the sort of person who can absorb instruction and act on it helps a lot. I've taught total beginners who could post to the trot after and figure out how to use their reins and legs correctly after just a few lessons then I've had those who were still struggling for months and months 
I really quiet placid green horse for a rider that's got a good trainer working with them is going to be less dangerous than putting a green rider on a highly trained but very hot sensitive competition horse
A really nice schoolmaster is always going to be the ideal but they aren't always there when you want them and they don't always come cheap


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

There will be some good stories based on the temperament of the owner/ horse and if there is a good base of support of the owner to fall back on. Some humans are naturals and can read horse body language easily, but most green riders don't. Which is why this doesn't often work. 

Ideally, either the rider or horse should have a clue what is going one. With green on green, NO one knows what they don't know and it can just be a real mess unless there is a good trainer/mentor to keep things on track.


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## gingerscout (Jan 18, 2012)

I'll admit it.. green on green here. I have been riding off/ on for 10 years but never really had a lesson, had to be self taught.. one of the joys of being plus sized is no one will give you lessons to learn unless you have your own horse.. on my 3rd horse now.. first 2 we realized were not a good fit for me. My current horse of 2+ years.. was ridden maybe 40 times in 10 years before I got him.. not ridden in 8 months when I went to look at him. All of my firsts have been his firsts, trail rides, trailering etc. We have had our issues here and there, but I can make him do what I want eventually..if he decides to have a testy moment. Things like riding Bareback, leading on trail and such I was told he would never allowed her to do. I finally am at a barn where I can take lessons, looking forward to taking some once work picks up and I can spend he money.. although at a lot of barns around me 10 horse group lessons don't interest me very much and $100 private lessons don't either..lol. I could find someone to come out and give lessons, but everyone I have found due to being in middle of nowhere charges mileage fees and the barn has a haul in fee and such by the hour.. so in the end its cheaper to take lessons there. I definitely want to get into some form of lessons as I feel I really need them


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

LoriF said:


> I think a lot has to do with the personalities of the person and the horse. If the person is confident and horse is sane , it shouldn't be a total disaster. Having good input from a third party goes a long way in the equation too.


This has so much truth in it.
I was taking weekly lessons for maybe a month or 2 when my trainer decided that because I was spazzing too much each time I was put on a different lesson horse/pony. (Putting bits in was the worst, they have teeth in there! Feeling how each one moved differently scared me. All were good horses, I just didn't like the change of one to another evidently.)

She decided to have me take extra riding time, which I couldn't afford (rather, my husband didn't want to afford, lol), but she had a just broke coming 3 yr old mare that needed saddle time in prep for selling her. She decided the mare was sane enough for me to use as a trail horse with her on her own horse. 

3 days later the mare was mine. Something between us clicked in a way that I couldn't understand in the other lesson horses. The first time I rode Sonata, my trainer asked me to do a couple of things she hadn't really done before. I did them without even thinking about it. And with no major effort. 

I did take weekly lessons for 6 months, along with riding 3-4 times per week right when I bought her. 

That was 5+ years ago, and we are still doing great. Is she perfect? No. Am I? Nope. But we do pretty darn good together and I have even managed to teach her a few new things since.  

There is just something in the way we work together, that we can read and understand each other really well.

(Oh, and PS- the first new thing I taught her was how to open her mouth and take her own darn bit! My fingers were NOT going in that mouth!  )


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## Tihannah (Apr 7, 2015)

Green rider=Green horse here, but... 

My green horse was almost 18 when I got her and has the temperament of a saint. Hadn't really ridden since I was 16, and picked it back up at 39. Fortunately for me, I had an army of support at my barn and lessons and clinics and went in full force often riding 5 days a week. Although I never have to worry about getting dumped, it has been one of the hardest things I've ever had to do - trying to teach and trying to learn at the same time. The ups and downs are plentiful and never ending...

Would I do it over with a 4 or 5 yr old? Not on your life! Lol.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

GracielaGata said:


> This has so much truth in it.
> I was taking weekly lessons for maybe a month or 2 when my trainer decided that because I was spazzing too much each time I was put on a different lesson horse/pony. (Putting bits in was the worst, they have teeth in there! Feeling how each one moved differently scared me. All were good horses, I just didn't like the change of one to another evidently.)
> 
> She decided to have me take extra riding time, which I couldn't afford (rather, my husband didn't want to afford, lol), but she had a just broke coming 3 yr old mare that needed saddle time in prep for selling her. She decided the mare was sane enough for me to use as a trail horse with her on her own horse.
> ...


I know this is a hijack, but where you put your fingers to open a horse's mouth, there are NO teeth. It's where the bit rests, called the bars. In any case, a horse that won't take the bit on its own is not a trained horse, in my opinion.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Avna said:


> I know this is a hijack, but where you put your fingers to open a horse's mouth, there are NO teeth. It's where the bit rests, called the bars. In any case, a horse that won't take the bit on its own is not a trained horse, in my opinion.


Oh, I knew that, logically! But I hadn't quite gotten the coordination down to do it comfortably, by far. So I stayed away from there at all costs! 

And there could be some truth to what you say. I do still think some well trained horses need reminders to open their mouths, i.e. the pressure on the bars. Others, are like what you and I are saying: I hold out the opened headstall, Snoty reaches her head with opened mouth into it, and I pull it back gently to finish putting it into place.


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

As a general rule I don't think green on green works aka I would never recommend someone green get a baby or young horse, that said there are always exceptions to that rule and it can work out. I understand in people's cases because a well trained horse can be really expensive or sometimes a horse's training has been bad and you're better off getting a horse with a good temperament but is green and happy to work.

It depends on the riders willingness to learn, own balance and athleticism and temperament. As well as the horse's temperament and previous life experience. And having good help makes a big difference.

If someone can afford it, a school master is ideal or at least access to schooling on a schoolmaster. Though I will say riders who've only ever ridden schoolmasters often lack a certain feel and finesse that prevents them from really understanding how to influence and develop horses. It's difficult to explain but I've seen it a lot, where people have never really ridden or developed young horses and if you put them on a young horse they have all these ideas of how it should be and have such supreme confident and over estimation of their own abilities that they can't ride them well at all and end up ruining them but are convinced it's the horse and not them because they've shown through PSG or I1 or whatever. It's usually those types of riders that I see that let their ego get involved and ruin perfectly good horses. So even though they've shown to whatever level they're still green. So honestly sometimes it's better for the horse to be with someone starting out but is receptive to learning and doing right by the horse, rather than appeasing their ego. I don't think there is much room for ego or self validation when riding young or green horses, it needs to be about educating them and developing good habits and experiences, not strictly to make the rider "look good." 

Lots of humility and patience with young and green horses. I think training a green horse is usually easier than starting a baby from scratch but if a horse is older and was psychologically abused by a rider, working through that and getting them to work for you is very tricky and I'd NEVER encourage a green rider to attempt to rehabilitate horse from that kind of situation because it's often dangerous and requires a very skillful, patience, calm, experienced rider.


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## DebRVT (Oct 30, 2016)

Thank you guys for all your stories and advice. I feel like I should add my own story as I really thought I was doing the right thing by buying a young horse - there are days I regret it now.

I rode and took lessons in high school but never seriously - just for fun.
Life got busy when I went away to college and the horse I was leasing died during my 2nd year.
Fast forward to 2 years ago (at age 35) when the passion arose in me again.
I thought it would be smart to buy a mature horse with miles on him since I had little experience. Long story but he was not what I expected and I ended up having to euthanize him 3 months later due to serious health and behaviour problems. This was shortly after he threw me off several times (damage was done to my left hip) 
I was heartbroken and decided I wanted to buy a young horse who was likely to be healthy longer and had no bad behaviours created by someone else. Cost was also a factor due to the amazing amount of money I had spent on my first guy.

I stumbled on Tinker - a fjord/quarterhorse who was 2.5 years old when my trainer and I went to look at her. She had done essentially nothing but had a pleasant and willing personality. She proved that not much freaks her out during the event of trying to get her on the trailer.

Here we are 1.5 years later, she just turned 4 this week and we are just starting to do some light riding. I did a lot of ground work with her and eventually moved onto liberty training which we are focusing on now.
She spent 3 months at the end of last year with a professional trainer (western pleasure) and he said I had a really good horse - offered to buy her several times.
I gave her all winter off riding to build a connection and understand how to communicate with her on the ground.
I have an amazing coach always willing to go the extra mile to help us but we don't necessarily do any regular lessons.
We attended a Jimmy Anderson liberty clinic in Dec 2016 (he also really liked her) which showed me how awesome the connection between us can really be.
I feel a love for her like I have never felt for another creature!!

We have come such a long way together but there are lots of days that I feel awful she doesn't have someone more experienced to guide her 
My coach says she is a great horse and that I am very lucky; that she forgives my downfalls easily.

I am trying to do what is best for her and become a better horseperson so that she will be happy to work with me/for me.
There are just days I feel so lost.
I have to give her credit for always making an effort to do what she thinks I am asking.

Thanks for listening!!!


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

It sounds like you are doing all the right things in utilizing professional training when you need it and taking advice from a coach.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Yes, it sounds like you are working towards developing a beautiful relationship with this horse! Keep getting the help you need, and you'll be fine. It sounds like she's a solid horse and you're probably a better rider and horseperson than you give yourself credit for, since she's done well under you!


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## DebRVT (Oct 30, 2016)

Jan1975 said:


> It sounds like you are doing all the right things in utilizing professional training when you need it and taking advice from a coach.





Acadianartist said:


> Yes, it sounds like you are working towards developing a beautiful relationship with this horse! Keep getting the help you need, and you'll be fine. It sounds like she's a solid horse and you're probably a better rider and horseperson than you give yourself credit for, since she's done well under you!


Thank you both!! I am trying very hard to do right by her.
My coach did say that she has seen a ton of improvement in my horsemanship over the last 6 months 
She was a pretty nice steady horse to start with and I guess I should consider myself very lucky to have found her.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Acadianartist said:


> Yes, her father watched the whole thing and honestly thought the horse was going to kill her. It is truly baffling. I can only shake my head. Sadly, it happens. Grandfather gives kid a foal (literally, in this case), parents can't say no, kid watches horse movies and reads books and thinks she can train the horse like she trains a dog... she actually TRAINED the horse to rear. Never wears a helmet. Thinks it's cute that she's the only one who can handle the horse (if you call 6 concussions handling). Seriously, it is a disaster waiting to happen. The horse will probably end up having to be euthanized because he's so dangerous. She'll most likely end up dead or disabled. It's a train wreck, but there's nothing I can do but look away.


I know it happens, but it still shocks me to hear this level of carelessness & stupidity! Not that I'd allow a novice child to get into that situation anyway, but that horse would have been out the gate & no where near my daughter after the first 'accident'. Sounds like the parents aren't interested to take any responsibility in the safety of their daughter! I personally thought that's what parents were for - Keeping their kids safe & teaching them how to be safe. I would personally not just look away, but if the parents are that dumb/uncaring, I'd have a chat to the local police or such - especially if they have any experience with horses/horse accidents - and see if they can talk some sense into the people, before it's too late.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Green on Green success stories are like a blind squirrel.

One of the examples I grew up with when my elders wished to explain those rare cases when something very unlikely does manage to happen.

"Even a blind squirrel might get lucky and find an acorn." (but odds are it will still die real soon)


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## DebRVT (Oct 30, 2016)

its lbs not miles said:


> Green on Green success stories are like a blind squirrel.
> 
> One of the examples I grew up with when my elders wished to explain those rare cases when something very unlikely does manage to happen.
> 
> "Even a blind squirrel might get lucky and find an acorn." (but odds are it will still die real soon)


I actually feel like we are doing ok considering some of the stories I have read/heard recently. I guess I am one of those lucky little blind squirrels  Hopefully I can keep finding my acorns!!


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## AQHA13 (Apr 19, 2017)

Abbe and I are a green on green success story. Looking back, I'm not quite sure how we made it work, but we did. She was a rambunctious 15 month old filly that was full of attitude and her only skill was that she kinda-sorta knew how to lead at a walk. She first caught our attention as she whinnied and pranced around the round pen of the farm where we were looking at a different horse. 

I was 14 and she was 1. I had grown up with my grandparents couple of horses, and while I wasn't a good rider, I was very comfortable around horses. I had a thirst for knowledge of all things horse, and spent hours researching online, reading books, watching youtube videos, watching clinton anderson, and would skip class to observe clinics. I would literally learn something, go try it, and if it worked I was stoked, but if it didn't I would go back inside and try to figure out where I went wrong. The ground work was the most difficult, but once I learned that she was still pushing my buttons and I needed to ask more of her it got a lot easier. She was started bareback and in a halter without any fuss and then took to the saddle like a champ. There were quite a few bumps in the road though, and fully understand why people do not recommend green on green combinations... I wouldn't recommend it either. However, I also wouldn't change the experience I had for anything.

I am 24 now and she is 11. Together we do whatever sounds like fun, trail riding, cattle drives, cattle sorting, speed event play days, and backcountry horseman events like the wine and ride. We certainly lack finesse, and I know that we would never ever do well in a show, but she is a dependable horse and suits me just fine.


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## DebRVT (Oct 30, 2016)

AQHA13 said:


> Abbe and I are a green on green success story.
> I am 24 now and she is 11. Together we do whatever sounds like fun, trail riding, cattle drives, cattle sorting, speed event play days, and backcountry horseman events like the wine and ride. We certainly lack finesse, and I know that we would never ever do well in a show, but she is a dependable horse and suits me just fine.


Thank you for sharing this!!
You sound very much like a younger version of me - soaking up knowledge wherever you can and just trying to do what's best. I would be very happy with the kind of relationship and trust you have with Abbe. I am not looking to win any ribbons - just to enjoy her safely!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

its lbs not miles said:


> Green on Green success stories are like a blind squirrel.
> 
> One of the examples I grew up with when my elders wished to explain those rare cases when something very unlikely does manage to happen.
> 
> "Even a blind squirrel might get lucky and find an acorn." (but odds are it will still die real soon)


IF you lump all 'green' riders together, including the totally ignorant, thoughtless, careless, disinterested to learn.... then I'd agree, that it's just uncommon 'dumb luck' that allows some to get by. But I don't think that's reasonable, as there are those who while 'green', do realise they are, bother to learn & take precautions, do have some common sense...


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

It depends on the horse and the person.

I would not let a green rider anywhere NEAR my big green ottb. Not even on the ground. She is a big horse, and she knows it. And she's also sensitive and anxious. Throw a person without much experience at this horse and they WILL get hurt. Hell, I've been hurt, and I've been around horses for most of my 22 years.

But I had a lovely little chestnut filly (also a thoroughbred) who was totally novice safe at just 3 years of age. It did, of course, help that the novice in question is a lovely young lady who has an exceptional attitude towards learning and a lovely natural manner with horses. This girl just gets how they think. Between a quiet (but green) filly and a quiet, naturally intuitive, but nervous (so not keen on asking more of my filly than she had already been trained to do!) novice rider.... it worked. It worked REALLY well. I gave the filly to the girl and they would still be together if not for the filly turning out to have an old injury that made her only broodmare sound. I would give the girl another quiet young horse in a heartbeat.

It's ALL about the horse's temperament, the person training both horse and rider, and the rider's attitude. I've been the rider when it went horribly wrong, and I've been the "trainer" (I'm not a professional) when it all went right.

Edit; the MOST IMPORTANT thing to keep in mind is that you DO NOT know much, even if you think you do. Getting help is the best thing you can do and is not an admission of inability, but an acknowledgement that you and your horse will both benefit from an experienced trainer. When I was "that rider", the reason it all went wrong is that I refused to get a trainer.


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## DebRVT (Oct 30, 2016)

loosie said:


> But I don't think that's reasonable, as there are those who while 'green', do realise they are, bother to learn & take precautions, do have some common sense...


This makes me feel better - I think I am one of these people. I do realize my lack of experience and am soaking up everything I can from trusted sources.
I sent her away for initial training to a professional and have taken her to 2 horsemanship clinics to better learn how to communicate with her. My barn owner says she is very impressed with how far I have come. I am not pushing my luck with her - we are spending a lot of time on the ground earning each other's trust!!!


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## DebRVT (Oct 30, 2016)

blue eyed pony said:


> The MOST IMPORTANT thing to keep in mind is that you DO NOT know much, even if you think you do. Getting help is the best thing you can do and is not an admission of inability, but an acknowledgement that you and your horse will both benefit from an experienced trainer. When I was "that rider", the reason it all went wrong is that I refused to get a trainer.


Thank you - I definitely do not look at asking for help as an admission of inability - I have truly enjoyed learning from the people who have helped me and am so lucky they have taken the time to deal with my inexperience!!
I am all too aware (somedays overwhelmingly so) that I still have so much to learn but for now am going to focus on what I need to know to help this horse be a great partner!!


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## NCT (Mar 28, 2017)

blue eyed pony said:


> It depends on the horse and the person.
> 
> 
> 
> It's ALL about the horse's temperament, the person training both horse and rider, and the rider's attitude. I've been the rider when it went horribly wrong, and I've been the "trainer" (I'm not a professional) when it all went right.


I agree with this. My daughter was 10 with less than 2 years riding experience (and Im a non-horsey mom) and she started leasing a horse that turned her into a nervous mess- it just wasn't working. Then out comes a 5 year old mare that had been stalled for year recovering from injury. Sounds like a disaster but 15 minutes later my kid felt like a champ. 3 months later they are learning a lot together.

The horse is just laid back and easy going and was rescued by the trainer/instructor got when it was 2 yrs old. So she wasn't totally green but also obviously didn't have more than a year or so riding experience. My daughter takes lessons twice a week which I feel is absolutely necessary for it to work. A quiet sensitive horse with a quiet sensitive kid. So far it's working very well.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

loosie said:


> IF you lump all 'green' riders together, including the totally ignorant, thoughtless, careless, disinterested to learn.... then I'd agree, that it's just uncommon 'dumb luck' that allows some to get by. But I don't think that's reasonable, as there are those who while 'green', do realise they are, bother to learn & take precautions, do have some common sense...


 Ok, let's take a look at what you've said here.

"...do realise they are, bother to learn & take precautions..."
If they "bother to learn" from whom did they learn? I was green once and "bothered to learn" (well, I didn't have a choice, being surrounded by horse people who were born before anyone in the county ever had a car so horses were second nature to them). I learned for experienced horse people. That's no exactly what "green on green" means. So we really have throw out the "bothered to learn" portion of your statement since it implies someone being green, but guided by someone with experience.

Now for "....take precautions, do have some common sense..." and not being "ignorant".

The term "ignorant", by it's technical meaning means to not know something. Green on green are therefore, in a sense, ignorant so I'll guess that you meant to imply that they were or were not intelligent vs "ignorant".
I never said they had no intelligence. I'll say it's not smart, but I know brilliant people who are not smart. PhD's who I often wonder how they manage in the "real" world  (I basically attribute it to their spouses who have some smarts about them...so it's like the above...someone helping them).
Anyway, as for the green person....if the have common sense and intellect that's still not going to be enough unless they get lucky enough to have a green horse that would qualify as "dream come true" for an experienced training. I'm sure we've all run into horses like that. I've dealt with a few and they are an absolute joy to work with. Along with that they have the extreme good luck to happen to do things and the horse happens to pick up on it all and....we have a Disney movie in the making :grin:. Right up there with "Return to Snowy River" when a TB stallion that's had no training and been been feral for 20+ years allows someone to saddle, bridle, bit, and ride him with zero training time (of course the rider wasn't green, but it's just a far fetched). You know there are people who actually believe that crap. My last girlfriends 14 year old daughter watches this stuff and honestly believes that she (having never trained a horse to do anything) can get a new, green horse and train it, because she feels she has "natural ability". Too may Disney movies.

However, that still leaves my statement as pretty accurate. The person with intellect and common sense finding a horse that's and dream for training is the case of a "blind squirrel finding an acorn" :grin:. It happens, but it's not the norm, it's not real common, and you have pretty fair (perhaps better than fair) odds that a really good horse is likely be messed instead of well trained.

Yes, there is always the "chance" that everything will work out fine. There's always the "chance" that the blind squirrel will find an acorn. :grin: However, common sense doesn't teach you about horses, how the respond, how to effectively train their different personalities, etc., etc., etc. Knowledge about horses teaches you that. At the end of the day a green on green success story, no matter how brilliant the person is, or how much common sense they have is still all about LUCK (and a lot of it) and the green horse being one of the exceptional cases (which there are some). There isn't enough luck in the world to go around for all the green riders who think they can train green horses. If there was we wouldn't see the negative outcome and problems that result from these green on green efforts (and I would not have needed to learn anything from more experienced people....after all, I'd already been riding for 3 years). :grin:


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Lbs, I don't know if you guys are familiar with a famous political satirist over here, who died last week - John Clarke? I mention him because I've been watching 'Clarke & Dawe' & your arguments here sound like many of his  It's rare that I disagree with you, but have to say, on this note, it seems rather nonsensical.



its lbs not miles said:


> I learned for experienced horse people. That's no exactly what "green on green" means. So we really have throw out the "bothered to learn" portion of your statement since it implies someone being green, but guided by someone with experience.


Sounds like it means something different to you, which you're not explaining, but in my understanding, the general meaning is inexperienced person with an inexperienced horse... which says nothing about the teachers, willingness to learn, or intelligence of people.



> I never said they had no intelligence. I'll say it's not smart, but I know brilliant people who are not smart. PhD's who I often wonder how they manage in the "real" world  (I basically attribute it to their spouses who have some smarts about them...so it's like the above...someone helping them).


OK, perhaps my 'totally ignorant' should have read 'lacking intelligence/smartness'. It sounds like you're taking 'green on green' to mean only stupid people who don't have a clue or bother to learn. I agree thoroughly actually, that stupid, careless, inconsiderate people, especially if they're stupid enough to think they have nothing to learn from a good teacher, shouldn't be allowed near horses(live animals generally), but again, I don't believe that is synonymous with 'green' in the least. IMO 'green' includes the majority of inexperienced people with inexperienced horses, who are at least 'smart' enough to realise they have stuff to learn, to make it work. Which was precisely my point. 



> Anyway, as for the green person....if the have common sense and intellect that's still not going to be enough unless they get lucky enough to have a green horse that would qualify as "dream come true"


I actually think that is a very unrealistically pessimistic view. And insulting to most beginners. Tell that to all those, even just here on this forum, who have WORKED to make it work, rather than just happen on that rare 'fairy tale' horse & 'dumb luck'. I've taught enough novice horse people with green horses to see otherwise, if they're 'smart' enough. Is it advisable that they buy a green horse? No, & I'm sure my clients who have found themselves in that situation would heartily agree, that it would have been *smarter* to start with a horse who knows what's what, because it would be easier, safer... but their success is NOT down to rare dumb luck.

And I probably see just as many wrecks - or stuffed up horses - because of silly beginners who buy 'bombproof' or 'well trained' horses & assume that absolves them from spending & effort on lessons etc. Surely, if you've been around a bit, you have seen many idiotic things between experienced horses &/or riders too. When I chose my kid's first pony for eg, I didn't actually go to look at him - a 7yo that had 1 week's training after being left in a paddock since he was a yearling wasn't what I wanted. It was her other pony, who was a 'been there done that' seasoned 12yo ponyclubber who had been taught dressage, jumping, etc. She was well educated & experienced... and very... assertive, especially with teeth & hooves - I didn't see her ridden by a novice, so not sure how many more 'assertive' tricks she may have had there. She would have trained my kids, in no time... to keep away!

So, with your argument, it logically seems that 'green' people shouldn't be on horses of any kind, not just 'green' ones, because it's all just 'dumb luck' that they don't mess them up, or get messed up by them.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

loosie said:


> Sounds like it means something different to you, which you're not explaining, but in my understanding, the general meaning is inexperienced person with an inexperienced horse... which says nothing about the teachers, willingness to learn, or intelligence of people.


I can't speak for your side of the world, but in this neck of the woods (and with the people I knew in southern AZ when I was there, as well as part of the Mid West and New England) "Green on Green" has a specific meaning. A person with no experience and having no one with experience to guide or assist them in training a horse that has no training (beyond perhaps being haltered and lead). That's Green on Green. If you have someone with knowledge guiding or otherwise assisting you (and allowing you to miss up a bit at times so they can laugh) then your just a green person who is being taught by an experienced person. Everyone starts out green. Even surgeons start out green and have to learn how to operate (but hopefully not on their own). So if you're saying that a green person with a green horse, but an experienced mentor is "green on green" then yes, we have a different meaning. Here that's just a green person being trained with getting hands on experience by an experienced person who guides, instructs, and teaches them which is not "green on green" (because someone in that equation is NOT green).




loosie said:


> I actually think that is a very unrealistically pessimistic view. And insulting to most beginners. Tell that to all those, even just here on this forum, who have WORKED to make it work, rather than just happen on that rare 'fairy tale' horse & 'dumb luck'. I've taught enough novice horse people with green horses to see otherwise, if they're 'smart' enough. Is it advisable that they buy a green horse? No, & I'm sure my clients who have found themselves in that situation would heartily agree, that it would have been *smarter* to start with a horse who knows what's what, because it would be easier, safer... but their success is NOT down to rare dumb luck.


I'm actually very realistic about it. I would sincerely hope that green people who get on this forum to find help are given information pertaining to what they ask about and are being told that they need to find someone experienced to help them "in person" (vs just over the internet). That is something I have noticed as a common thread in every case I've come across on here. We (those in the know) telling them (those who are greed) to find experienced help.
Anyone who attempts to train a horse (successful or not) is going to work. If they happen to be a "green on green" success then they are one of the extreme few (back to the blind squirrel's acorns). The vast majority (extreme majority really) of green on green are not success stories. At least not beyond "hopefully" the person realizing that they should not have attempted it alone the first time. If they at least learned that then at least that can be said to have been a success. Sure, there have been cases of green on green success, but it's rare and I personally believe it has as much to do with the horse being a near perfect horse (mentally) as it does with the person.



loosie said:


> So, with your argument, it logically seems that 'green' people shouldn't be on horses of any kind, not just 'green' ones, because it's all just 'dumb luck' that they don't mess them up, or get messed up by them.


:rofl: Now loosie, it's ridiculous to make a statement that green people shouldn't be on horses (or ever train horses). EVERYONE starts out green so no one would have horses. None of us were born with the knowledge of horses instinctively present in our minds. Nor did learning the fundamentals of how horses "think" (for lack of a better term) teach us about all the different personalities we would encounter with the different horses. That's why we start out learning from and being taught by those who came before us (or in some cases for some people, those who started before them). We gain knowledge and experience from our mentors/instructors/trainers/teachers or whatever you want to call them...and then suddenly (as lightening splits the sky and there's a deafening roar of thunder) the rain washes away all the "green" :rofl:
Ok, perhaps it's not as dramatic and simplistic as that and takes a "bit" longer to "wash" all the green away, but the point is it's process. Like learning to be a surgeon. You start out green without the knowledge or skill and after training and guided experience you learn the art/skill.
For those who manage a TRUE "green on green" success story....yes, it is "dumb luck". They got VERY lucky, because they happen to have the right horse and they happen to do things that horse picked up on and things happen to turn out right without them getting hurt or the horse getting messed up. Yes, it happens. There clearly have been, are, and no doubt will continue to be the rare "green on green" success stories (I actually know one, but I still would never let her train another horse and her horsey extended family members agree). She's actually a good example of a problem than can come from a green on green success story. They succeeded once, with one horse, with no help. Now they feel they are qualified trainers. I've gone behind her before. It didn't take long for even some of her own family members to refuse to allow her to deal with their horses. It's luck. It doesn't even mean they learned things they should know. They were savy enough to sort some things out and manage to make it workout. Bravo. Good for them. It was still just luck. They worked to make it happen, but they got lucky with the right horse under the right conditions. With a different, but perfectly trainable horse they could have been a total failure. LUCK.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

...meant to say "it's ridiculous 'for me' to make a..." Wasn't not implying that loosie had made the statement. Just that her idea that I was making that statement was ridiculous, because it's such an obviously ridiculous thing to say.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

its lbs not miles said:


> ...meant to say "it's ridiculous 'for me' to make a..." Wasn't not implying that loosie had made the statement. Just that her idea that I was making that statement was ridiculous, because it's such an obviously ridiculous thing to say.


Yep, it sounded ridiculous to me, which is why I put it that way... but also why, esp given our previous convos, that I thought you must have a whole different definition... which apparently was right. Thanks for explaining. No, 'green on green' to me just means anyone not experienced with a green horse. We just call your kind 'idiots'!  

As one of our politicians famously said once, 'Australians are people that aren't afraid to call a spade a spade. And if needed, pick it up & hit someone over the head with it!'. :mrgreen:


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