# Bosals Cruel



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

English Hackamores look different to the Hackamores that girl uses. English ones are usually padded and if used wrong can cause a lot more damage. Bosals aren't cruel unless you get one to small for your horse so it's always rubbing. I've never used them but I've seen riders use them for hours and have no problems. Also, Hackamores can be quite expensive, not sure on exact price, but not cheap.


----------



## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

Bosals are no more cruel than the hands that use them, just like everything else in the horse world. Not the best choice if you are heavy handed, but a good tool to have, provided you are capable. I haven't read through this thread entirely- just found it last night, but it may answer some of your questions. http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/hackamore-horse-151597/

I have used a mechanical hackamore on a gelding I used to ride because he was missing the majority of his tongue. It worked well, but it did use leverage, so full contact was uncomfortable for him.

Edit: Just want to add, I don't think you should use a bosal without some guidance- they need to be fitted, different materials are better, and they are easy to misuse. Don't invest unless you are light handed, and your horse responds nicely to your cues, and check in with an expert! I'm wanting to get into riding with one as well.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

While there are some torturous options in the bitless world like this









The general rule of thumb is that tack is only as harsh as the hands on the reins. IME, anyone who says "This piece of tack is cruel" simply doesn't know how to use it properly.

If you don't have good hands, you can skin a horse's nose and jaw up with a bosal, you can bruise/bloody their mouth with a snaffle. _Anything_ can be used to cause pain if it's used incorrectly.

However, used _correctly_, a snaffle is no harsher than a halter and that's no harsher than a double bridle or spade bit. After all, a good horse shouldn't wait to respond to _pressure_, they should respond to the _movement_ of the tack. IMHO, that's why good western horses are ridden on loose reins. You don't have to pull on them to get a response, you simply have to pick up enough slack in the reins for them to feel the bit _shift_ in their mouth.

You can use a bosal, but unless you are under instruction from someone experienced in using them properly, you likely won't achieve the level of responsiveness seen in good young bridle horses. There is a proper way to use them to achieve and maintain a soft and supple horse. As EquineObsessed said, there are trade secrets to fitting them and using them correctly. If it's not fitted or used correctly, then it's no different than riding in a very stiff, and very _expensive_, rope halter.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I am assuming you seen this video:




 

Completely disregard any misinformation in this video...yet another 16 year old "trainer". *head desk*


----------



## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

If you listen to everyone and their "theories"….you will make yourself crazy. There will always be someone who thinks that everything…including swatting a fly…is cruel. It is all in the hands. Whatever you decide to use.


----------



## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

COWCHICK77 said:


> I am assuming you seen this video:
> Hackamores Are Worse Than Bits? - YouTube
> 
> 
> Completely disregard any misinformation in this video...yet another 16 year old "trainer". *head desk*


HAHAHA! I genuinely thought that whole video was a joke! Then I realized she was "serious"... And I laughed even more!


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Omigosh. I had to turn the video off... People are crazy....


Here is the thing, as said above. You can do a ton of damage with a bozal, you can scar the nose, you can scar the poll... Oh wait... You can do that with hackamore too... In fact, you can do just as much damage with either device. Oh wait... You can break teeth and damage the mouth with a bit, rip the lips and bruise the roof of the mouth... OH gosh...

You can do so much damage to any animal using any man made device... at any time.

The trick is knowing how to use it, using it properly and wait for it.... COMMON SENSE!

Sorry... I'm stuck in the snow w/ nothing to do and I'm cranky...


----------



## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

The only REAL solution is to just let them stand there and look pretty……of course then they might slip and hurt themselves…..:lol:


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

franknbeans said:


> The only REAL solution is to just let them stand there and look pretty……of course then they might slip and hurt themselves…..:lol:


No joke.. It happened to a neighbors horse last night in the snow storm! He had to be PTS (a blessing in disguise if you ask me).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

What's crazy is that girl actually has a following on youtube and her videos actually get watched a good amount


----------



## Lonannuniel (Jun 13, 2008)

I wish I had enough experience to give you a useful response, but as others have said, anything in the wrong hands can be cruel

as a side note, have I really been pronouncing bosal the wrong way for years? Is it bo-zel (like in the youtube video), or baw-sul?


----------



## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

I have always heard it "Bow-zal", or baw-sul, depending on location. Never Bo-zel, like in the video. That's another point though- if a person can't pronounce equipment properly, she obviously doesn't know what she is saying about it!


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

OH, to be 16yo and know *EVERYTHING!!!!!!*


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Long way from 16 and now I'm


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Funny, I have ridden with a person or two using a bosal and the horse's nose never came back bloody. :lol:

Heck, I have a friend who trail rides in a lariat-noseband bosal (which I feel is coarser than rawhide) and her horses have never had so much as a scuff on their nose. 

Why do we as horse-forum users even give these crazy teenage videos the time of day? I could hardly get past, her, like YOU-KNOW, like WHAT-EVER way of speaking! 

I think most of us, even though we are often humble, have more years working with horses than this girl has even been alive. Not that you can't learn something from a young person. You can always learn from people even if it's simply what not to do. But I don't think we have to get our knickers in a bunch over an immature teenage video.

Do I believe her story of some guy blooding a horse's nose? Probably. It could happen. Do I believe bosals are bad as a result? No way. In the right hands I know they work even if I don't have the education to use one myself.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

PS. Not long ago we had a "bits are cruel" thread. Now bosals are cruel. What's next? Rope halters are cruel? Web halters are cruel? Riding horses is cruel.......keeping horses in captivity is cruel. Letting them die out in the wild is cruel. Where does it end? 

Maybe it would all be a safer, kinder world without anyone living in it. None of us should reproduce. Nor should our animals. All the cruelty of being alive and living in this messed up world should end!


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

The original poster on this thread and this one: 

http://www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/bits-no-bits-353898/

would have a lot to discuss. :wink:


----------



## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

I don't think the OP meant that bosals are cruel. I got the impression it was something she heard, but wanted to learn more about. Much better attitude than some of those other threads, and posters who insist on making ill-formed generalizations!


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I have never ridden or trained with a bosel but I've been thinking about getting one to use on my QH, "Buster Brown." He yields very well with a halter. Any suggestions, or threads here with suggestions?


----------



## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

Corporal said:


> I have never ridden or trained with a bosel but I've been thinking about getting one to use on my QH, "Buster Brown." He yields very well with a halter. Any suggestions, or threads here with suggestions?


I found this thread helpful, read it this morning, after spending all of last night reading it's 68 page mother thread. http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/hackamore-horse-151597/ Put it in my original posting on this thread. It has a lot of good tips, and gives guidelines for where your horse should be in a snaffle before progressing to the bosal.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

EquineObsessed said:


> I don't think the OP meant that bosals are cruel. I got the impression it was something she heard, but wanted to learn more about. Much better attitude than some of those other threads, and posters who insist on making ill-formed generalizations!


Oh, I'm very sorry, my mistake! I meant the girl in the video and the girl in the "bits are cruel" thread. Sorry about that.


----------



## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

What bothers me the most is that this is exactly why people dislike that age group. I'm a few years older than this girl, but people like her give the more mature and knowledgeable teenage riders a bad rep. And I don't even blame them. Stuff like this makes me dislike my own generation. Besides the obvious misinformation, is it really professional to be all annoying with the "OMG" every sentence? It's not like it helps her look smarter. Gah!


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Lonannuniel said:


> I wish I had enough experience to give you a useful response, but as others have said, anything in the wrong hands can be cruel
> 
> as a side note, have I really been pronouncing bosal the wrong way for years? Is it bo-zel (like in the youtube video), or baw-sul?


The pronunciation is regional.
Here we pronounce bosal like the girl in the video, as much as I hate to say it...LOL (bo-zel)
We also pronounce mecate as- "muh-car-dee". 
Or just call it a 'hair rope".


----------



## quinn (Nov 8, 2013)

Lol...a few times I swore she said "bozos". 
Good to see I wasn't the only one wondering about the pronunciation! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I've used them all, snaffles, curbs, spade, bosal, western and English hack. All of these are cruel in the wrong hands but each is designed to be a means of communication, soft communication.


----------



## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

EquineObsessed said:


> Bosals are no more cruel than the hands that use them, just like everything else in the horse world.


This says it all.



Corporal said:


> OH, to be 16yo and know * EVERYTHING!!!!!!*


:lol::lol::lol: Oh that's funny:lol::lol::lol: I was SO much smarter when I was 16, now I'm 38 what's happened to me. :lol::lol::lol:



Saddlebag said:


> I've used them all, snaffles, curbs, spade, bosal, western and English hack. All of these are cruel in the wrong hands but each is designed to be a means of communication, soft communication.


Again its the hand not the tool, thank you thank you thank you.


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

COWCHICK77 said:


> The pronunciation is regional.
> Here we pronounce bosal like the girl in the video, as much as I hate to say it...LOL (bo-zel)
> We also pronounce mecate as- "muh-car-dee".
> Or just call it a 'hair rope".


My old trainer called it a "bawzal" so that's how I always pronounce it but my new trainer calls it a bo-zel


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Oh lord... THIS is why I cant handle most people unless they are at least 3 years older than me XD. I look at my generation (I'm only 21) and I want to slam my head against a wall. This generation is just painful...


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Corporal said:


> I have never ridden or trained with a bosel but I've been thinking about getting one to use on my QH, "Buster Brown." He yields very well with a halter. Any suggestions, or threads here with suggestions?


CowChick would be the best person to talk to. I have done a bit of training with a bosal (around here, pronounced either "bows-all" or "bo-sul") but I'm a long way from an expert at it as I've always preferred a snaffle then straight up to the curb. One thing I can tell you is that any good bosal will have a natural core in it, stay away from anything with a cable core, those are crap. 

Also, a good bosal and hair mecate (meh-cah-tee around here :wink will run you several hundred dollars. If you wanted, you can get a decent yacht rope mecate for 30-50, but they are much heavier than hair. I'm not really sure whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. I know I refuse to use a yacht mecate on a snaffle simply because it makes the bit imbalanced by having the near side weigh almost twice as much as the off side.

Anyway, all I have to say about the girl who posted all those vids is this: With the way she rides, bosals (or in her case, a very poorly fitted rope nose hack), saddles, and riding are _all _cruel. My horses would kill me if I rode like that.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Just to clarify - there are a number of teen posters on HF that I would be glad to go ride with, and to listen to their advice on how to respond to when my horse does X, Y or Z. Nor am I amazed that some 16 year olds know everything. I certainly did! Thankfully, I did not have YouTube so I could not tell the entire world why taking corners on 2 tires was a good idea!

But I do find it funny that so many people trust YouTube videos without question. There are the 'bits are cruel' videos, the 'all horses must go barefoot' videos, and now the 'saddles are evil' videos...although I'm guessing "_saddles are like, OMG, worthless because they make you bounce like a beach ball and people rode in NOTHING before saddles were invented 100 years ago...I mean, did I say 100, I'm having a mind melt here, I meant 500 years ago, before anyone thought of saddles that make you bounce..._" 

And part of why I find it funny is I do remember the far distant time when I was 16, and knew at least as much about everything as this girl does now...:lol:


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Who remembers the Sarah Stetner videos? This must be her little sister.


----------



## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

*MODERATOR'S NOTE*:

*Several comments and videos in this thread have been removed. The reason for removal is that those videos and comments made of them didn't serve constructive discussion or criticism but turned more to be laughing at the videos and person who made the said videos. That isn't encouraged on Horseforum since it falls under bashing category.

However, we don't want to be too restrictive on HF.com so discussions and critique which stay polite even if they do disagree are OK. Feel free to critique any piece of information, especially incorrect one, but please be constructive and avoid pure "omigosh what a moron" type attitude.

Regards,
Horseforum.com moderating team*


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I wouldn't dis an entire group of people just for their age. there really are quite a few folks in their late teens here, who I would gladly ride with, and indeed, they could teach me a lot.
it's not the age of a person, it's the attitude.

And Cowboy Bob? Sorry to tell ya, but when you have 20 more years, and you look back, you will likely have the same feeling that "I didn't know nothin' back then". I certainly do when I look back to my 38 year old self.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Corporal said:


> I have never ridden or trained with a bosel but I've been thinking about getting one to use on my QH, "Buster Brown." He yields very well with a halter. Any suggestions, or threads here with suggestions?


 
The thread that Wanstrom started last year might have some ideas for you, haven't read it since so I can't remember. I think EO posted the link for it. 
Ed Connel's book, Hackamore Reinsman is considered the bible for hackamore training. I think you can find some used copies on Alibris.com for about $15. There are some FaceBook groups as well if you do the FB thing.

My suggestion if you were to buy one good all-around bosal I would get a nice 5/8". Decent ones that I have used personally that you can buy off the internet- Martin Black's website or Jack Armstrong Braiding on facebook. People suggest Steve Guitron but I have never used one before.

As far as mcartys go they should be about the same diameter as your bosal. I love Larry Schutte, Merlin Rupp, Doug Krause or Helen Dougal Cobari ropes, not sure if you can get them on the internet though. 
Just discovered Gloria Keys:
The Colorful Cowgirl Mecates, Gloria Keys 
They seem to feel nice, and very pretty! 
I bought a mcarty off of Martin Black's website for my husband and I never did like it, I had heck trying to break it in.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'd never heard of bosels until I moved to the US and when I saw one I was surprised at how hard it was - not what I expected from something that's supposed to be gentle on the horses nose. I think I prefer a sheepskin padded English hackamore


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I'd never heard of bosels until I moved to the US and when I saw one I was surprised at how hard it was - not what I expected from something that's supposed to be gentle on the horses nose. I think I prefer a sheepskin padded English hackamore


 
There are some hard ones out there, all bosals are not created equal. And if you are a purist or traditionalist you may have 10+ bosals hanging in your tack room.
Your supposed to teach the horse to move off the feel and balance not the pull. But you use the 'pull'(bumps) to reinforce the feel if needed then leave him alone. 
That is why its critical not to hang on his face or inadvertently teach that he can lean or run through it, because it doesn't take much to dull one, faster than it takes to dull one to a bit(no matter how stiff the bosal is). Bumps and one rein at a time.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Interesting - Thanks


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I thought I was a bosal junkie because of my "collection" for one horse. 

There is no tack shop where I live that sell them, so I have to buy online. Some I like the balance of better than others, some are more pliable than others. When I find one that I like the feel of I use it all the time. The rest are pretty hanging on the wall....lol.

I feel the same with my mecates; I either love what I bought or find them really stiff and hard to break it.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Another thing about hair mecates, mane hair is the only way to go, it's a lot softer and more pliable than ones made of tail hair. Those tend to be stiff and _really_ prickly.


----------



## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

If someone is going to buy a bosal( boe-sell) go ahead and get the best one you can afford. A good one is going to be at least 100 bucks probably closer to 200 and I've seen even 5-600. You can pretty much spend as much as you want for one. The first bosal I got was a factory made rawhide bosal that had rawhide little better than that you would see in a dog chew. It worked and was a starting point however by the time I got a good one and saw the difference in a nice handmade bosal I had spent more than I needed to . That and if you hold the two side by side you can see what a good bosal really should be. The edges on the rawhide plaits are smoothed out and simply feels better to the hand and to the horses nose. The rawhide is softer, the core has more life in it which helps in building the signal. It is simply night and day. Also make sure it has a rawhide core. 

I have 2 bosals ( full hacks more sets)from Steve guitron and really like them. One is a 5/8 bosal with 5/8 mecate and the other Is a 1/4 bosalito with a 1/4 mecate for the two rein. Neither are fancy but still really nice. The next one I get will be fancier and there fore pricier. :lol:
A simple hanger will be about 30 bucks and then a good horse hair mecate( ma- ka- tee) is going to run you another 85-100 bucks so the outset of money isn't chump change but quality tack makes a difference. 

I'm on my iPhone right now so I won't delve into all the misinformation and anecdotal evidence against bosals in the video posted. I may tackle that when I'm back to a real computer. :lol:


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Just a pet peeve...make sure it fits...


----------



## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

Good point. Make sure it fits and it will need to be shaped some as well to take the shape of the horses face.


----------



## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

Smrobs is right, there is a significant difference in mecate reins made from mane hair and those made from tail hair. The mane hair is more flexible and softer,
I ride in both a bosal and English mechanical hackamore. English hacks have wider nose band and shorter shank. I got mine through Smartpack. I don't really have a preference over one or the other, but don't alway like the bulk of the mecate reins. I have barrel reins on the hack and usually use it for short rides.
I'm sorry, but I just couldn't watch the video. After the 50th time she told me how POD she was, I had to stop.
I also ride in a bit with a shank. Guess I can't win and no matter what I do my poor ponies are tortured. As you can see by my avatar they suffer so.


----------



## PixeChick (Dec 17, 2013)

To add my 2 cents worth... got a raise.. ha .. Bosals, hackamores...anything used on a horse can be painful if used incorrectly. One must "always" have soft hands and if the horse does not respond and you find yourself pulling, tugging and hurting the horse, the horse needs more time with you doing the ground work to become lighter and more responsive. Just the way I work. ;-)


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

franknbeans said:


> The only REAL solution is to just let them stand there and look pretty……of course then they might slip and hurt themselves…..:lol:


Gather you're talking about the... chick in the flick??:lol: OMG! That was hilarious! I couldn't help but keep watching it, even tho vids don't play well on this old clunker. Any Aussies watch it? Remember Kylie Mole?? I mean yeah, but... Hahaha!


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I remember seeing this video a few months back and just thinking "o.o"

I have never used a bosal (which I have always pronounced "bah-sal." I don't know if that's right or not xD) and I admittedly don't know much about them. That said, this girl just /sounds/ like she's full of herself and misinformation. xD She's not humble in the slightest and, to me, that's always the first sign of someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

EquineObsessed said:


> What bothers me the most is that this is exactly why people dislike that age group. I'm a few years older than this girl, but people like her give the more mature and knowledgeable teenage riders a bad rep. And I don't even blame them. Stuff like this makes me dislike my own generation. Besides the obvious misinformation, is it really professional to be all annoying with the "OMG" every sentence? It's not like it helps her look smarter. Gah!


Don't worry, EquineObsessed, I'm probably twice your age but I come across a lot of mature-age people in my part of the world who are like that, so it's not a young-age thing (except that younger people are perhaps more likely to post this kind of stuff on youtube). There's a lot of people of various ages from young to ancient who think things like "all bits are always cruel" or "any bit that's not a snaffle is cruel" or "a snaffle is always a nice soft bit" or "all curb bits are cruel" or "riding your horse faster than a walk or gentle jog is cruel" - and if you disagree with them you're painted as a pariah, and in my experience you can't reason with people like that, I've tried... :shock:


----------



## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

KigerQueen said:


> Oh lord... THIS is why I cant handle most people unless they are at least 3 years older than me XD. I look at my generation (I'm only 21) and I want to slam my head against a wall. This generation is just painful...


My daughter is 21, and this is what she says too! Just hang in there, they will catch up, or at least be tolerable, in a few years.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

...and while I'm here, I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed the level of the discussion going on in this thread. I'm new here, and was looking for a thoughtful forum which isn't just a majority into fads or gurus, but people interested in actual horsemanship.

Bits: I've ridden in various snaffles, a halter, a short-lever padded hackamore, an unjointed Pelham, and the so-called Spanish Snaffle (good mild curb bit somewhat like an unjointed Pelham but with a slotted D-ring for attaching your single rein to at the level of curb action you want - mild or very mild). I think those of you who say it all depends on the horse and the hands are right on the money. I think the main problem with bits, and aids in general come to think of it, is that riders don't respond quickly enough to lessen the pressure immediately the horse tends to do what is wanted, and then it doesn't understand what is wanted. If you respond immediately to the horse when it's starting to do the right thing, it learns quickly and you will be using so little pressure, be it on your bit/other communication device, or with your legs. You will literally just be shifting your weight in subtle ways and doing feather-light changes with the reins.

Different bits do different things, and also horse have individual preferences. If there are any fellow Aussies reading, one of the best books I ever read on bits was by the late Australian Tom Roberts. He was a good old-fashioned horseman who actually trained horses and riders in the army way back when, and who was heavily involved in re-educating problem horses, and in dressage, jumping etc. He had a real knack of getting people to look at things from the horse's point of view. It's such a shame that so few people appear to have heard of him these days. He completely debunked ideas like "curb bits are cruel" and other such generalisations. I miss the commonsense and the intelligence of people like that, compared to some of the modern faddists who can have this terrible tunnel vision.


----------



## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Oooops Deleted comment.


----------



## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

I just started using a bosal this week.

My mare has always been very sensitive about a bit. I got her from my sister in law, because she was too much horse for her and her family. SIL had to get her teeth floated when she first got her because her mouth was completely unbalanced and it was painful for her to even chew her hay. As a result, April would lift her head and threaten to rear when my SIL tried to bridle her. 

When I got her, I just rode her in a web halter for a while and she was pretty responsive, but I did not feel completely safe with her. We rode by some mini horses once in the halter and, as we got closer and the minis did not get taller, she panicked. She is a spin-spin-bolt-spin kind of girl, and I just did not feel like the halter was enough on that day. I had already begun training her to lower her head and take the bit, so we started riding in a french link. It gave us lighter communication in the saddle, and more control if needed. She has done well with that for 2 years. 

This fall, my vet said her teeth would probably need to be done in the spring. In the last month, she has begun to show some nervousness when I bridle her so I borrowed a bosal from a friend to see if it would be better. 

In the process of preparing for the bosal, I did some research. First, one of the benefits cited with using a bosal in "bridal horse training" is it is used on young horses who may have their wolf teeth or other teething issues. Until our favorite horse dentist comes to our area (March), I will be using the bosal.

The interesting part is, unlike the web halter I used before, and the french link, so far April is more responsive to the bosal. I just lift the rein and she responds, even a bit over-reactive. And her response to bridling is positive and welcoming. She turns her head into the bosal like she used to for her bit before her teeth started to hurt.

I also read about fitting the bosal to the horse's head. I used soft craft wire to make a model of April's nose, then jigsawed a piece of wood in that shape to put inside the bosal and shape it. I keep the wood piece in it when its in my tack locker.

Here is the bosal I am using. It is a cheapie, I am sure. Luckily, my dad gave me some beautiful mane hair reins that I tied on it because I did not like the rope mecate. I love the hair reins! I think the weight (light) is perfect, and they are soft in my hands like my horses mane.


----------



## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

So, I guess I am trying to say, I think the bosal can be gentle. My horse, as I have said in other posts, is a "good communicator" and would not duck her head into the bridle if it was not. I also think it is a good tool for my horse. There are many factors that make a bit or hackamore or halter work or not and be gentle or not: hands, teeth, conformation, sensitivity or lack of sensitivity of the horse, and there are probably more. For my horse and me, right now, the bosal is what we prefer.


----------



## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Just a pet peeve...make sure it fits...


ahhh that drives me nuts to see a person, with a bosal (bow-sall here) that rests its entire weight, weight of the mecate, and their hands on one inch of the thinnest skin, with the least padding on the entire horse. If dingy Darla (or whetever that kid's name who wanted to punch everybody in the face saw) saw a horse with a bloody face due to a bosal, that is likely why. A properly fitted bosal should leave a sweat mark all around the horses face.Like so


----------



## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

Foxtail Ranch said:


> I also read about fitting the bosal to the horse's head. I used soft craft wire to make a model of April's nose, then jigsawed a piece of wood in that shape to put inside the bosal and shape it. I keep the wood piece in it when its in my tack locker.


Done the same myself, much cheaper than paying somebody for a $45.00 block of wood.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I personally don't like the hard bosals & I made a soft one, using a piece of 10mm yacht braid rope for the centre & braiding over it with tanned kangaroo thonging rather than rawhide. It is effectively the same as a rope halter to use, but just looks prettier!


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

6-That's just sweat, right?

Kind of back tracking to the original part of the conversation... has anyone seen any of her other videos?


----------



## Herosbud (Dec 14, 2013)

I have had a few dead broke trail horses that would whoa when you said whoa and were good reining horses as well, and you could ride with a relaxed rein. So I thought that I would go with a bosal and just eliminate the bit altogether. After several weeks of mountain riding at vacation time they would start wearing hair. So I would put sheep skin wraps on them in strategic places to prevent the hair wear and the sheepskin would pick up every sticker, thorn, and beggar lice in the county - So I decided that they didn't work for me, although I always thought that they looked entirely cool!


----------



## nitapitalou (Jan 20, 2014)

Gotta give the girl credit for standing up for what she feels strongly about. However, I think she needs to do a little research herself, as per her own advice in the very beginning.


----------



## Herosbud (Dec 14, 2013)

To anyone that had the stomach to watch that video all the way through my hat is off to you.


----------



## nitapitalou (Jan 20, 2014)

Unfortunately, I think any positive message that she may have had was lost between the "crap"s and "I am so ****ed off right now"s and her lack of composure. I confess, I didn't make it into the video very long, so she may have regained some direction after I quit watching.


----------



## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

Zexious said:


> 6-That's just sweat, right?


Yep just a sweat mark left by a _properly _fitted bosal​


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Foxtail, hope you don't mind me making a suggestion 

To get the most out of your bosal, try switching your headstall for a small latigo hanger.
The latigo hanger will allow for a faster drop/release than the headstall you have attached.
Also if something happens like, he manages to step through the loop of your McCarty the latigo hanger will break before your bosal or McCarty gets tore up. 
My husband makes those little hangers for me, but I have bought some off of Ebay. ($20-$40) It wouldn't take much to make one for yourself without the blood knots either if you didn't want to spend the money on one but try it.


----------



## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

Thanks Cowchick77. That was well timed advice. I have my leather kit out and can make a hanger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Foxtail Ranch said:


> Thanks Cowchick77. That was well timed advice. I have my leather kit out and can make a hanger.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL, awesome, I think you will feel the difference 

I like your idea using the wire to make a form for shaping a bosal! 
I _refuse_ to spend the money on the bosal shapers made. So I lightly wet them and tie leather string around the nose button to tighten it up, put it on one of my kitchen canisters that I keep flour/sugar/coffee in seems to be the right diameter, then tie the bottom closed and let it dry..LOL
Your idea is better...


----------



## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

Ok, first off. I actually managed to sit through the whole video. I guess I have absolutely to much time n my hands.:lol:

I think there needs to be just a bit of clarification related to the video.
This is a bosal.










Once you add the hanger and reins it is a Jaquima which over the years has been anglisized to the word Hackamore. This










then you have the mechanical hackamores which I will gladly admit I have very limited experience with.

Now, In the beginning she stated that the Bosal, which should have been hackamore was used to train young horses. Which is true. However she came up with some 30 day rule that I have never heard of. the traditional hackamore was used to train a horse all the way up until it started carrying the bit. Even then it was still used in conjunction with the bit with a small Bosal or Bosalito under the bridle. This may have taken YEARS with no ill effects if done corectly..



She also told a little story about a bloodied horse from a bosal. i am not going to say this can not happen but I would lean more toward a couple things rather than blaming the Bosal( Hackamore). First would be the rider. Either said rider had the hands of a butcher,or did not know how to use a bosal. If it were the hands all i have to say is imagine if it were a bit. Second i would go with the horse had never been taught to respond to the bosal correctly which in turn can go back to the rider for not preparing the horse appropriately. Eithe way blame the personnot the equipment.

Now as I touched on in an earlier post of mine and some others have touched on. Not all Bosals are created equal. Some things can make them harsher than others. Cable core vs Rawhide core. IMHO rawhide is the only way to go. It gives more and bounces back more giving a much clearer signal. Which after all is what you are going for. The type of rawhide on the outside. Good rawhide is not all that hard. many people hear rawhide and think of dog chews. That is junk rawhide. Good rawhide is flexible and has a life to it that has some spring. Again to build a good release . It is alos prepare correctly with beveled edges of the plaits that are braided in. which gioves it a smoother surface and no jagged edges to cause a cheese grater effect. The more plaits the more edges and the more important of a proper edge treatment of the plaits of rawhide. Also they come in different sizes. Get one that fits the horse. If it is to big it gets sloppy and moves around more. therefore it can cause a rub. Like was said also, it needs to be shaped. They come in a generic shape that it ends up from the braiding process. It needs to be made to fit the horse.
here is mine being shaped. I use a coffe can.



Here is a decent book on Hackamore training that I have. It has alot of pictures and such but like someone said the hackamore bible is Hackamore reinsman by Ed Connell. 




I'm sure there is something I missed but forgive me I watched it about a week ago and I'm not going back to that train wreck.:lol:


----------



## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

COWCHICK77 said:


> LOL, awesome, I think you will feel the difference
> 
> I like your idea using the wire to make a form for shaping a bosal!
> I _refuse_ to spend the money on the bosal shapers made. So I lightly wet them and tie leather string around the nose button to tighten it up, put it on one of my kitchen canisters that I keep flour/sugar/coffee in seems to be the right diameter, then tie the bottom closed and let it dry..LOL
> Your idea is better...


Thanks! 

I used your idea and here is a picture of the NEW hanger my buddy made for me. I have it on Millie, my 17 hh monster TB, but it is fitted for my mare in my avatar pic.









sorry for the angle of the photo!


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I would like to get one. I have been thinking about it for a while. This thread is making me really want to try it .
My mare's previous owners used a mechanical hack on my mare. Sometimes she would almost rear because she hated the darn thing so much. Yep, that will never be used on her again.


----------



## spookychick13 (Jan 1, 2011)

I LOVE my hackamore, and so does my horse.
He goes better in this than anything else I have tried.


----------



## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

The ONLY part of ANY bridle, hackamore, snaffle bit, whatever kind of rig it may be, that has the potential to be Cruel of Soft is the HANDS ON THE REINS. 
ANY training aid can be used in an abusive way, just as any training aid can be used in a proper and reasonable manner.

You can use a brick to bash in someone's brains, or you can use a brick to build a school, church, or hospital. Either way, it's not a brick problem.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Yes Daniel, I think we can all agree with that. In principle at least. But there is a lot of equipment designed to cause sharp discomfort/pain, equipment that is easier to cause accidental pain with... not to mention the many poor 'hands'. That is why, for eg. I will only start a horse AND/OR rider with a halter or soft, true Jaquima (thanks fort for reminding me what the real ones are called!). Only once the horse is well enough trained **& the hands on the reins are well enough trained, do I move to a bit.


----------



## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

DanielDauphin said:


> You can use a brick to bash in someone's brains, or you can use a brick to build a school, church, or hospital. Either way, it's not a brick problem.


You're right and that makes since. But if it was a gun we were talking about then it would be the gun that is the problem. :lol:


----------



## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

spookychick13 said:


> View attachment 388521
> 
> I LOVE my hackamore, and so does my horse.
> He goes better in this than anything else I have tried.


My mare really likes it too! In her bit, she often overreacted to cues or corrections. I got her teeth floated on Tuesday this week, but I think we will continue to use the bosal because she really responds well to it. She has a calmer response to corrections, especially.


----------



## BitlessForHappiness (Sep 17, 2010)

The Doctor Cook bitless bridle is basically an English bridle (looks like it has a bit even, but doesn't!). It crosses the reins under the chin, and gives a bit more control than a classic English hackamore, but is less severe than a Western hackamore with the shanks, in my experience. Good luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I have one and my more dose not like the Dr Cook style. Its a shame because mine is so purdy XD!


----------



## BitlessForHappiness (Sep 17, 2010)

KigerQueen said:


> I have one and my more dose not like the Dr Cook style. Its a shame because mine is so purdy XD!


Wow, interesting! Did you figure out why she didn't like it? I know some horses have problems with it if their teeth get too long, but accept it just fine after the next floating. I'm curious as to what other issues are out there! Just a horse by horse scenario or something specific?


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

CowboyBob said:


> You're right and that makes since. But if it was a gun we were talking about then it would be the gun that is the problem. :lol:


Yeah, "Guns don't kill people...." But they sure help!:lol:


----------



## spookychick13 (Jan 1, 2011)

KigerQueen said:


> I have one and my more dose not like the Dr Cook style. Its a shame because mine is so purdy XD!


I had a Dr. Cook's as well, but my horse prefers the bosal. I think the release isn't as instant in the Dr. C's.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

BitlessForHappiness said:


> Wow, interesting! Did you figure out why she didn't like it?...Just a horse by horse scenario or something specific?


I can't speak for anyone else, but I tried a similar design and my horse seemed to dislike having her head squeezed with wrap around pressure. I've seen a lot of folks who say they tried a Dr Cook design and it did not work with their horse. They can also be slow to release pressure.

And for me, I simply dislike Dr Cook and his insistence that bits are cruel and work on pain."_The Bitless Bridle provides a humane alternative to the Bronze Age technology of the bit. Unlike the bit, no pain is inflicted. Your horse is free from fear, listens more attentively, breathes more freely, and moves more gracefully...In common with all bitted bridles, the traditional bitless bridles are pain-based in their mechanism._"​The Bitless Bridle by Dr. Robert Cook, FRCVS, Ph.D., a humane alternative to the bit

That is simply poppycock. I write that as someone who spent 3 years riding bitless before switching to bits, and whose mare REALLY started to calm and relax after switching her to a curb bit.


----------



## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

bsms said:


> I can't speak for anyone else, but I tried a similar design and my horse seemed to dislike having her head squeezed with wrap around pressure. I've seen a lot of folks who say they tried a Dr Cook design and it did not work with their horse. They can also be slow to release pressure.
> 
> And for me, I simply dislike Dr Cook and his insistence that bits are cruel and work on pain. "_The Bitless Bridle provides a humane alternative to the Bronze Age technology of the bit. Unlike the bit, no pain is inflicted. Your horse is free from fear, listens more attentively, breathes more freely, and moves more gracefully...In common with all bitted bridles, the traditional bitless bridles are pain-based in their mechanism._"​The Bitless Bridle by Dr. Robert Cook, FRCVS, Ph.D., a humane alternative to the bit
> 
> That is simply poppycock. I write that as someone who spent 3 years riding bitless before switching to bits, and whose mare REALLY started to calm and relax after switching her to a curb bit.


marketing marketing and more marketing while playing on the fears, insecurities, guilt and inexperience/lack of knowledge of his target market.


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

SHe rides fine in a bit, or a halter. But in the Dr cook its LOTS of head tossing. I got tired of her head banging so I stopped using it. She would also get a huge dent in her nose from fighting it the entire time. Used it about 5 times and she started getting white hairs. Ill stick with the bit. If I could switch to a bosal I would.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

This picture shows very well why I don't like that particular style of bitless. You can see how slack the reins are....but the crossunder strap is still tight enough to put that big of an indent in the horse's jaw. That, to me, absolutely screams "no release".

So, as a trainer, that is a poor tool to use because release is paramount to good training. If the release isn't there, then the training won't be either.


But maybe I just expect more from my horses than other folk :?


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Here is a pic of my mare's. The reins look tight but the are just loosely draped behind the horn to show off the gems. If she moved her head at all they would slack. It was rather tight just sitting on her face. I have a hard time getting it on because the straps under the chin don't want to stay slacked.


----------



## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

smrobs said:


> This picture shows very well why I don't like that particular style of bitless. You can see how slack the reins are....but the crossunder strap is still tight enough to put that big of an indent in the horse's jaw. That, to me, absolutely screams "no release".
> 
> So, as a trainer, that is a poor tool to use because release is paramount to good training. If the release isn't there, then the training won't be either.
> 
> ...


yeah, I recon they got it right when they invented the hackamore (rawhide bosal mecate etc.). Though I have never used any of these bittless options when I stop and compare what their action looks like, to me, with the way a good hackamore works, I just don't see why to bother with any of them.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AnrewPL said:


> marketing marketing and more marketing while playing on the fears, insecurities, guilt and inexperience/lack of knowledge of his target market.


Maybe... but maybe he does actually believe it too. He has supposedly(I know, ppl say things...) done a lot of study into the effects of a bit on breathing, tongue pressure, etc & I haven't personally looked into it enough to say it's definitely boffo(new fav term thanks to Terry Pratchett!). But from BSMS's quote, I just can't see how lumping 'all other bitless' into the same boat as bits is at all rational & I agree with yours & other's comments about his particular bridle - can't see the point & it looks contradictory to me (pull right rein = pressure under the jaw & left side of poll??). Didn't know about the lack of release prob either.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

loosie said:


> He has supposedly(I know, ppl say things...) done a lot of study into the effects of a bit on breathing, tongue pressure, etc & I haven't personally looked into it enough to say it's definitely boffo(new fav term thanks to Terry Pratchett!).


I don't know, just from the way he describes bits and their function, I wonder if he didn't limit his "study" strictly to riders who rode like this


















:wink: You know what I mean? LOL


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_Four horses, none of which had ever been ridden in a crossunder bitless bridle, were ridden through two 4 min, exercise tests, first bitted then bitless. An independent judge marked the 27 phases of each test on a 10 point scale and comments and scores were recorded on a video soundtrack. The results refuted the null hypothesis and upheld the predictions. Mean score, when bitted, was 37%; and through the first 4 min of being bitless, 64%. A binomial probability distribution suggested that the results were significantly different from random effects. All 4 horses accepted the crossunder bitless bridle without hesitation...The authors are of the opinion that the bit can be a welfare and safety problem for both horse and horseman. _"

Preliminary study of jointed snaffle vs. crossunder bitless bridles: Quantified comparison of behaviour in four horses - Cook - 2010 - Equine Veterinary Journal - Wiley Online Library

That was supposedly an 'unbiased study' by Dr. Cook. I think I could promise him that MY horse would give a very different result. The idea that all four horses did great in their first time bitless in a cross-under style, with zero training, strains my credulity.

"_Bits and shoes cause pain. In general, the bit causes acute and immediate pain, whereas the shoe causes chronic and delayed pain...As a result, horses can now be controlled better in all disciplines, will perform better, and be safer to ride and drive without bits than with bits. Happily, one does not have to be a professional horseman to reap these advantages. Because removal of the bit eliminates at least 50 problems caused by the bit, the art of both schooling and riding is simplified. There being no disadvantages or contraindications for use of the new bridle, essentially no learning curve for the horse, and very little for the rider, the advantages are readily available. Even the greenest novices are saved from themselves by a method of control that can neither hurt nor confuse a horse._"

http://hstrial-jleitl.homestead.com/files/metalfreehorse10_1_05.doc

Again, this is in direct contradiction to my own experience. And if I had to trust either Hilary Clayton or Dr Cook, guess who I would choose:

"_In this millennium, horsemanship has undergone a renaissance that Clayton seems not to have noticed. For an equine researcher in 2011 to review such aspects of bitting is rather like someone reviewing whether, for the treatment of strained tendons with a firing-iron, the skin should be burnt in a pattern of lines or dots. Clayton believes, as I do not, that use of a bit is acceptable. In her abstract, she writes, “It is important to select, fit and use the bit correctly.”

I disagree. The selection and fitting of a mouth iron is a cruel and too usual punishment. It is no more to be recommended than the selection and fitting of a slave’s leg iron. As to its use, you can – in my opinion - no more use a bit correctly on your horse than you can use a thumbscrew correctly on your husband. Bits inflict pain_."

http://www.bitlessbridle.com/ResearcherEvaluatesBit.pdf

My horses are barefoot, but shoes are not a source of pain for all horses. And Mia made huge progress in relaxation and calmness after I started using a curb bit with her. She also accepts it readily in her mouth, and she doesn't do that with every bit.

I obviously disagree strongly with Dr. Cook and I would not do anything willingly that would keep him (her?) in the money.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Thanks for that bsms. It was a long time ago I looked into Dr Cook & if that's his 'proof & evidence', well then... sounds a bit like boffo to me too!


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Boffo is a good word, no? I also like "dooverlackey" (gadget)...

Dr Cook would appear to be a good object to which to apply the word boffo...a sample size of four...and those quotes bsms posted...


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

smrobs said:


> I don't know, just from the way he describes bits and their function, I wonder if he didn't limit his "study" strictly to riders who rode like this


SMR, those are shocking photos... and I agree with your thinking...


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Yeah, thanks for those images SM :-(


----------



## Hackamore (Mar 28, 2014)

First let me point out that for some of us the term Hackamore means a bosal and should not be confused with a Mechanical Hackamore that is usually made of steel and has shanks for additional leverage. A traditional hackamore consist of a leather or rawhide Bosal, a Bosal hanger and generally Mecate reins. I would never use a mechanical hackamore, however I have started dozens of colts in a traditional hackamore “AKA rawhide bosal” and have never so much as rubbed the hair off a horse. No different than if I started them in a snaffle bit I would set the horse up to succeed by teaching them how to carry the device and respond to its pressure before I rode with it. 

I typically ride all my personal horses in a traditional hackamore through the initial training stages. Sometimes for up to a year or more before letting them carry a bit with a two rein setup. 

Just as many have already pointed out the devise is only as cruel as the hands behind it. I see people every year that turn snaffle bits into a weapons just because they don’t understand how to use it or don’t care.

There is lots of good information about the hackamore & bridle horse training process currently available if you are interested.


----------



## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

Hackamore said:


> First let me point out that for some of us the term Hackamore means a bosal and should not be confused with a Mechanical Hackamore that is usually made of steel and has shanks for additional leverage. A traditional hackamore consist of a leather or rawhide Bosal, a Bosal hanger and generally Mecate reins. I would never use a mechanical hackamore, however I have started dozens of colts in a traditional hackamore “AKA rawhide bosal” and have never so much as rubbed the hair off a horse. No different than if I started them in a snaffle bit I would set the horse up to succeed by teaching them how to carry the device and respond to its pressure before I rode with it.
> 
> I typically ride all my personal horses in a traditional hackamore through the initial training stages. Sometimes for up to a year or more before letting them carry a bit with a two rein setup.
> 
> ...


I don't know why its so hard for people to get it, after all, if you pick up a bridle with a snaffle bit in it and say "this is my bridle" no one stands there and says "no no, that's a snaffle bit" yet they don't seem to understand what a hackamore is (in fact I think is should be called a hackamore and the mechanical ones given the qualification of mechanical hackamore, after all they were around along time before those contraptions).


----------

