# Sorry another color question, thanks for the patience...



## momo3boys (Jul 7, 2010)

OK here is a practical one instead of Hypothetical. My brothers mare is pregnant and I am trying to understand what color the foal might be. I have looked at the website color predictor but I am not sure what all the options mean.

THe sire is Black, but his dad was a black Roan and his mom was a Sorrel. The mare is champagne (not sure which one). Her dad is a champagne but darker and I have no idea what her mom was but I am guessing she had champagne too because of the mare's coloring. What options should I put in on that color predictor website?

Here are some pictures. I don't know how to separate pics with text so hopefully I will get these in the right order:
The first one is the sire of the foal.
The second is the mare in foal.
The third is the mare's sire.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

You already know the sire of said foal is black, so that fills your Sire box in the calculator.

The mare's sire is definitely an amber champagne and she looks to be also, just very light, but it would be easier to determine if you had a picture of her dam.

Also for the calculator, put "heterozygous" for what you can rather than "Unknown" because it'll affect the results.


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## CrazyHorseArtist (May 12, 2011)

The mother looks like she may have a chance at being silver as well.

I'd say go with just Black for the Father (but it's hard to rule out Roan because I've seen Roan horses with little to no roaning), and the mother is an Amber With possible Silver. (A Silver Amber for comparison)


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Actually, she looks more like Amber Champagne + Cream.


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## momo3boys (Jul 7, 2010)

OK, so now what is next? Entering that information gets me this:


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Sire: Put "Red Carrier"

Dam: Red Carrier and Heterozygous Agouti. 

I'm not sure why, but if you put Unknown and then put Heterozygous if you don't know, it changes the results dramatically.


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## momo3boys (Jul 7, 2010)

Thank you Poseidon. The big change is whether she is double Ch. That's makes a huge difference. If the mare is a ChCh then we will get some type of Champagne. If not, we could get ANYTHING! lol


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

You're mostly likely going to get a black based colour, since the sire is black and she is either bay + champagne or buckskin + champagne. Whether she has cream or not would make a difference too.

When is she due?


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## CrazyHorseArtist (May 12, 2011)

If there was any question about her being creme It would be Classic Creme. She's very dark even for a dark Amber Creme.


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## momo3boys (Jul 7, 2010)

Poseidon, my guess is Bay+Champagne. There weren't any buckskins in the herd, or any mentions of them. I don't even know if a Rocky can be a buckskin? She is due the end of June, beginning of July. (I don't remember the day she escaped her fence to visit the stallion...She wasn't my brother's then so I didn't make a note of it)

Crazy Horse, What is the difference between creme and champagne? When she is brushed and clean she is almost white. Just the mane and tail are dark, and she has hazel eyes, if that helps.


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## CrazyHorseArtist (May 12, 2011)

cremes usualy have black skin and champs have pink skin hazel eyes and a metalic like sheen to their coats. I doubt the mare is a creme but if she is its probably on a champ


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## momo3boys (Jul 7, 2010)

Definitely pink skin and hazel eyes. Not sure about the metallic sheen... I can't wait to see what we get!


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Champagne and cream are both dilution genes, but like mentioned, champagnes have mottled skin like Appys around their eyes, muzzle, under their tail, etc, amber/hazel eyes, and their coats tend to be shinier than a normal horse. 

Since champagne dilutes a coat colour similarly to the way cream does, amber champagnes are often confused with buckskins and gold champagnes are often confused with palominos. 

I guess we might find out if she does have cream in there somewhere when she foals.


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## momo3boys (Jul 7, 2010)

Here is a picture of her whole body and one of her face. You can see the spots thought. I never really noticed them before.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

She looks a lot like this horse who is an Amber Cream Champagne:









That's what I think she is.


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

momo3boys said:


> THe sire is Black, but his dad was a black Roan and his mom was a Sorrel. The mare is champagne (not sure which one). Her dad is a champagne but darker and I have no idea what her mom was but I am guessing she had champagne too because of the mare's coloring. What options should I put in on that color predictor website?


Stallion - Ee aa this is a black who is also able to produce the red gene. We know this because his dam was a sorrel. She could only throw ee. Because the stallion is black we know the agouti gene is aa (non agouti).

Now is the hard part. Assuming the mare is an Amber Champange with or without cream gene you know you are going to have a bay base. This will give you at least one E and one A. You also know you have at least one Ch gene. 

So far you are strongest for Bay or Amber Champange - Ee Aa or EE (homozygous black) Aa. 
Next is the black or Classic Champange which is black based - Ee aa or EE aa.
Finally the chestnut or the Gold Champange which is chestnut based - ee Aa or Ee Aa. Chestnut is available since the sire is aa.

If the creme gene is available this makes it more fun. With a bay base you'll have buckskin, black is smokey black and chestnut creates palomino. 

So in reality.... without knowing the homozyogous of the champagne or if there is a creme gene homozygous or not... 

You are guaranteed to have just about anything. 

If you have the extra cash I recommend getting the champange and creme gene tested. I have all my broodmares tested to help my breeding decisions. Or you can just wait and see what arrives. Like my latest. I knew for certian the foal would be bay but only had a 50/50 chance for Appy marking... and I got them!!


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

Sorry but when I read my post I noticed a couple of errors... and unfortunatly ran past the editing time allowed so here is a repost with corrections...



momo3boys said:


> THe sire is Black, but his dad was a black Roan and his mom was a Sorrel. The mare is champagne (not sure which one). Her dad is a champagne but darker and I have no idea what her mom was but I am guessing she had champagne too because of the mare's coloring. What options should I put in on that color predictor website?


Stallion - Ee aa this is a black who is also able to produce the red gene. We know this because his dam was a sorrel. She could only throw ee. Because the stallion is black we know the agouti gene is aa (non agouti).

Now is the hard part. Assuming the mare is an Amber Champange with or without cream gene you know you are going to have a bay base. This will give you at least one E and one A. You also know you have at least one Ch gene. 

So far you are strongest for Bay or Amber Champange - Ee Aa or EE (homozygous black) Aa. 
Next is the black or Classic Champange which is black based - Ee aa or EE aa. This is assuming the mare is not AA.
Finally the chestnut or the Gold Champange which is chestnut based - ee Aa or ee AA. This is assuming the mare is not EE.
Either AA or EE will eliminate the possiblity of black or chestnut, in that order... both EE and AA will mean all you get is bay. 
The Ch or champange gene will modify the base color which is black, bay, or chestnut. Same with the creme gene.

If the creme gene is available this makes it more fun. With a bay base you'll have buckskin, black is smokey black and chestnut creates palomino. 

And if there is a silver gene...

So in reality.... without knowing the homozyogous of the champagne or if there is a creme gene homozygous or not... 

You are guaranteed to have just about anything. 

If you have the extra cash I recommend getting the champange and creme gene tested. I have all my broodmares tested to help my breeding decisions. Or you can just wait and see what arrives. Like my latest. I knew for certian the foal would be bay but only had a 50/50 chance for Appy marking... and I got them!!


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## momo3boys (Jul 7, 2010)

Crossover, your post has made me realize that my gelding (the sire's foal) is not really a 'true' black. He has a lot of 'red' points so that would make him a smoky black right? I'm assuming that gene would have to come from mom though otherwise the dad would have them too right? Can the Creme gene be recessive?


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Smoky black looks no different than black. The "red" on him is probably just sunbleaching. The only way he could be smoky black is if he has a parent with the cream gene, but even then you'd have to test him for it.


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

momo3boys said:


> Crossover, your post has made me realize that my gelding (the sire's foal) is not really a 'true' black. He has a lot of 'red' points so that would make him a smoky black right? I'm assuming that gene would have to come from mom though otherwise the dad would have them too right? Can the Creme gene be recessive?


I agree with Poseidon. Its most likely sunbleaching. A fellow horseperson of mine said she noticed on her babies that the hetero blacks tended to bleach more reddish tone and the **** more of a tan/ yellow tone. Now if thats true for all... no clue, she's just saying what she has noticed over the years. She's a person who's opinion I value.


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## momo3boys (Jul 7, 2010)

So the only way to tell a true smokey black is with a blood test?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Yup. Unless it is from a tested sire and dam that could only possibly produce smoky black


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Or if you happened to breed to a buckskin or palomino and ended up with a double dilute.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Or that, yes lol


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

That would be quite the surprise. :lol:


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## momo3boys (Jul 7, 2010)

ok, so here is the baby. What is it?!?!? I wasn't expecting a dorsal strip and bright blue eyes. Pink skin without the freckling... what do you think? one white sock up the ankle and no facial markings at all. (surprising since both mom and dad have them).


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

Looks to me like a Classic champagne - champagne with black base. Very cute foal. Here is a site I found that should give you more info - Foal Colors


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## momo3boys (Jul 7, 2010)

Great site but the Classic Champagne is a paint on that site, so its not helping... What do you think of the dorsal strip? Will it stay? What about the creme modifier, is that there too do you think?

According to the site the pink skin will freckle and her eyes will darken? Too bad, I am loving the bright blue!


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

A lot of foals will get the dorsal stripe and have it fade away as they get older.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

A true dorsal is caused by dun and unless the sire or dam is carrying dun to pass on, a foal cannot be dun. Lots of foal coats do an awesome job mimicking dun.


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## ArabianLover2456 (Oct 5, 2010)

cute foal!


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