# How does horse training compare with dog training?



## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

What are some of the samenesses and what are some of the differences?

Both animals will need some type of obedience, correction and discipline in their upbringing.

Both may need some kind of desensitizing to certain things as gunfire, noise and bodies of water perhaps. 

Obviously dogs and horses are used for different tasks. You don't saddle and ride a dog and a horse does not retrieve birds for hunters. 

Is suspect horses are more naturally timid than dogs because dogs are predators and horses are prey. 

I have seen halters used on both dogs and horses. In some cases dogs can draw vehicles as snow sleds and horses are commonly used to draw vehicles as well. Both types of animals are used in racing events. 

Can a person who is experienced at training and handling dogs well also be a good candidate for a horseman and/or horse trainer?


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I do most things the same-- show the animal what you want, reward the correct behavior, ignore or correct dangerous behavior. Do not correct until the animal knows the right answer and blatantly chooses to ignore it-- some animals won't need much correction, if any at all. A horse is a prey animal, and a dog is a predator, so you have to take that into account, but there are much more similarities than differences. Most good dog trainers would be good horse trainers, and vice versa. 

I require basic manners from my animals, whether horses or dogs, and if I had kids, them too! Be polite, do what is asked, and life is good


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think Dogs enjoy praise more than Horses do. Dogs seem to get a real boost of morale from a "Good dog" moment. Horses less so. Horses want , basically, to be left along to do their own thing. That are not bothered by being left alone, whereas dogs need to periodically be reassured that you are there and love them. That said, horses need to be taught to look to the human for reassurance, and I think this comes less naturally to them.


I think it is harder to keep a hrose focussed on something for a longer period of time. By nature, they are programmed to scan, and scan, and scan, regularly, for danger, so their attention is short , most all the time. Dogs can be quite focussed. 



Horses will leave food, for safety. Dogs will leave safety for food. Horses are much more fear based, dogs more curiosity based.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

tinyliny said:


> I think Dogs enjoy praise more than Horses do. Dogs seem to get a real boost of morale from a "Good dog" moment. Horses less so. Horses want , basically, to be left along to do their own thing. That are not bothered by being left alone, whereas dogs need to periodically be reassured that you are there and love them. That said, horses need to be taught to look to the human for reassurance, and I think this comes less naturally to them.
> 
> 
> I think it is harder to keep a hrose focussed on something for a longer period of time. By nature, they are programmed to scan, and scan, and scan, regularly, for danger, so their attention is short , most all the time. Dogs can be quite focussed.
> ...




Another thing, both horses and dogs are based in group societies: neither animal is naturally solitary. Dogs live in packs, horses in herds and there is hierarchy in both. 

Should the horse trainer be in the position of HERD LEADER as dog trainers profess that dog trainers assume the role of PACK LEADER?


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Just to add to what already has been said, I think for me, the biggest difference would be, I have a tendency to stop a dog before he commits to a mistake but while his mindset is there. But even that is dependent on the situation as I dont want to babysit a dog much like I dont want to babysit a horse. They never learn to be responsible for themselves.
With a horse I'll let them commit to the mistake then correct.

But with that said I dont claim to be a dog or horse trainer. I think some dog people would disagree with how I train a dog but I train dogs I bred and raised for a specific reason. I'm not training for the general public or rehabilitating.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't know enough about dog training to really have an accurate opinion on comparing that sort of training with horse training.. One thing I do know is that with both kinds of training, it requires a real keen sense of observations of the animal, and its reactions. this building of awareness on the human's part is one of the fringe benefits of working with either species, since when one builds that keen sense of observation and awareness (something instinctual to animals), it comes to be an asset in other areas of life, later.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

At some levels, entirely the same. Training is training. Make the right things easy. Be a leader by showing the way, not punishing. Maintain respect by maintaining boundaries. Every moment is a teaching moment. Your intention is communicated through your body. Proximate goals not ultimate goals. Etc.

At another level, it is different because they are such different beings. Dogs are small predators who live with us and are members of our "pack". Horses are large prey animals who live with each other. Dogs are both bred and habituated to be safe to be around to a surprising degree considering their teeth. Horses can hurt or even kill you just by not paying attention, missing their footing, or being momentarily startled. 

I've trained a lot of dogs for a lot of things, and a very few horses. I think what is most similar is the mindset you must bring to training. Calm, fair, alert to the slightest nuance, firm, compassionate. With those you can go far with any animal. 

I love both species.


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

The biggest difference is in your approach. Dogs are predators and horses are prey. They react to stress differently. I have found that people new to horses get in the most trouble treating their horse like a dog and expecting dog results.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

It's how you reward the animal. If you approach a dog with exuberance, he'll respond in kind. If you approach a horse with exuberance, he'll most likely get out of Dodge. Just stand in front of either animal, crouch down a bit, and while approaching them slap your thighs, and shout with a big grin, "Who's a good boy? Who's a good boy?" 

I cringe when I see people slap their horses necks when they actually wanted to praise them.

So, I'd guess the training is the same, the currency varies.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

I used to professionally train exotics for tv and film, but I did spend a year training sniffer dogs, bomb detectors specifically for a world renowned airline. And now I'm learning to work with and train horses. So having been fortunate enough to be granted freedom to explore so many behaviours and techniques in my short life I will tell you this:

*It depends on the individual.*

You can have reactive, fearful dogs that can be trained like you would a horse, via pressure and release (aka negative reinforcement). Negative Reinforcement is actually "rewarding the animal by *taking away* the stressful stimulus". Too many people get hung up on the negative part without fully understanding it... >.< 

But then you can clicker train a horse like a dog, to accept and understand the concept of "positive reinforcement" - adding a positive outcome to an action or inaction. I hope I'm wording this correct I'm not great at fancy lingo.

Usually you're gonna want to use a combination. I will say though out of all the stuff I've tried negative reinforcement has (so far) been the fastest way to teach a horse something. They really understand the concept of pressure and release VERY well and I do believe it is because it is their native language. Do look up videos to better explain pressure and release, it will make far more sense than reading an essay. The reason negative reinforcement is so frowned upon is that the stereotype is of a person who applies TOO MUCH "pressure/stimuli" to the animal, to the point of it being abuse. You, as a good person, would be expected to only apply as much pressure as necessary to help them understand the lesson.

Just like dogs, horses can wear "masks". Aggression is often the result of anxiety or fear. And just like dogs, horses can and WILL learn to be boss if you fail to lead them to the correct answers. I have found horses to be ESPECIALLY unforgiving if you do not remain consistent with your EVERY. DAY. INTERACTION. And just like dogs, you must be able to control your own emotions. Dogs can read us very well. Horses can read you JUST as well and they can read you while appearing uncaring themselves. Do not fall into the trap of thinking they are not aware of you. 

I just love them. I have always loved big animals - big primates being the scariest, still. They inherently demand that you pay attention just for the fact they can end your life in an instant. I hope you can experience the joy of developing a bond with such an animal!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Kalraii said:


> I used to professionally train exotics for tv and film, but I did spend a year training sniffer dogs, bomb detectors specifically for a world renowned airline. And now I'm learning to work with and train horses. So having been fortunate enough to be granted freedom to explore so many behaviours and techniques in my short life I will tell you this:
> 
> *It depends on the individual.*
> 
> ...


Great post. 

I will only add that I learned what I know about pressure & release not from my years of dog obedience training but from training stockdogs (sheep herding dogs). First, because that is exactly how dogs move livestock. They push the outside sheep on one side, and then run to the other side of the herd to pressure the outside sheep on that side. I also learned the truth of stockman's adage -- first you get movement, then direction, then speed. Always in that order. Works for horses too. 

One of the many other things I learned in my sheepdogging years was what real leadership and real teamwork is. An experienced dog can control three hundred sheep, a person can't even control one. That means you need a kind of trusting relationship most people never get to experience with their dog. I found that I could bring that kind of awareness to horses and it made me a much better rider than my inexperience and crappy athleticism would have ordinarily ranked me as. One of my favorite sheepdog trainers used to say that every time you brought your dog to sheep, you should tell them, "It's me and you, my friend, against the world."


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I think that training anything requires the same treatment. Firm, fair and fun 

You cannot teach anything unless the pupil wishes to learn. 

Rules, boundaries and consistency. 

A good trainer can get inside the animals mind and understand the difference between 'I can't.' 'I wont' and 'I don't understand.' Dog, horse or human my attitude is the same, method will vary but basically it is the same.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I am logically sure everyone else is right, but for whatever reason I don’t feel that way. I mostly am confident with my interactions with horses; I think I’ve had success most of the time. 

Dogs are another issue entirely for me! I love them, they love me. Well, I love them when they are not puppies. I cannot teach a dog anything to save my life! My history with them has been that either they cow when I yell at them and that doesn’t work, or they completely ignore me. I have a nice little dog who is my partner and does whatever I say, but it is not because of me. He came that way. I am lucky my husband is good with dogs.

I really want a cowdog of my own. I’ve been debating it. I want him to turn back cows for me when I’m cutting, work for me at work, and to be my partner like the little dog when nothing is going on. I talk myself out of it constantly though because of my lack of skill. I probably could get my horse to turn back for me on his own, but a dog made to play that game, probably not!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Knave said:


> I am logically sure everyone else is right, but for whatever reason I don’t feel that way. I mostly am confident with my interactions with horses; I think I’ve had success most of the time.
> 
> Dogs are another issue entirely for me! I love them, they love me. Well, I love them when they are not puppies. I cannot teach a dog anything to save my life! My history with them has been that either they cow when I yell at them and that doesn’t work, or they completely ignore me. I have a nice little dog who is my partner and does whatever I say, but it is not because of me. He came that way. I am lucky my husband is good with dogs.
> 
> I really want a cowdog of my own. I’ve been debating it. I want him to turn back cows for me when I’m cutting, work for me at work, and to be my partner like the little dog when nothing is going on. I talk myself out of it constantly though because of my lack of skill. I probably could get my horse to turn back for me on his own, but a dog made to play that game, probably not!


Does yelling at your horse work? 

Dogs are real easy to train, compared to most other animals, because unlike almost all other animals, they are bred specifically to try to fit in with you and please you. If you can't train a dog, but you can train a horse, that is a puzzle to me. 

Dogs work for PRAISE AND FUN. They love a leader they can respect but not fear. 

A good and funny book which you might find useful is Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. She gives a lot of insight into how people see dogs wrongly and what dogs are really like. 

If you ever do figure out why you can't communicate with dogs, try a heeler, they are natural turn-back dogs. They don't cow easy either.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

@Avna Obviously I do not yell at my horse, but I do use body pressures and release which does work, and since I do not ride a dog I’m not sure that would work so well. Lol  I try to never yell at the dogs since I know they learn from a soft voice, but when they are not listening and at a distance I am at a loss of what else to do. 

My kids laugh at my current horse because I often talk to him and he has the personality of a dog in their view, but my communication with him is not really vocal. Like I said, dogs like me well enough, but I have no talent with them.

Oh, I will look into your book when I get more serious about a dog. Right now I can’t really justify another dog anyways. I don’t think a heeler would work so well because they are a bit hard headed right? I need the in between. Something that doesn’t cow and get its feelings hurt so easily, but also something that doesn’t need as aggressive of handling either.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

To add, I get the praise and fun. I am good at that side. It’s discipline that I don’t get I guess in regards to a dog.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Knave said:


> @Avna Obviously I do not yell at my horse, but I do use body pressures and release which does work, and since I do not ride a dog I’m not sure that would work so well. Lol  I try to never yell at the dogs since I know they learn from a soft voice, but when they are not listening and at a distance I am at a loss of what else to do.
> 
> My kids laugh at my current horse because I often talk to him and he has the personality of a dog in their view, but my communication with him is not really vocal. Like I said, dogs like me well enough, but I have no talent with them.
> 
> Oh, I will look into your book when I get more serious about a dog. Right now I can’t really justify another dog anyways. I don’t think a heeler would work so well because they are a bit hard headed right? I need the in between. Something that doesn’t cow and get its feelings hurt so easily, but also something that doesn’t need as aggressive of handling either.


It kind of sounds like you expect dogs to learn in some magical way that doesn't involve incremental progress, control, strategy, and focus. It isn't really talent that trains dogs, it's patience and putting in the time. When I used to train dogs I would do five to ten minute sessions five or six times a day. Sessions where I did nothing but focus on shaping one behavior a little bit more. Just like with horses, there is no point at which your dog is "trained". They are always learning, either for good or ill. 

The distance obedience thing is straightforward. As my stockdog mentor used to say, "don't ask your dog to do anything out there you won't bet $100 he'll do." In other words, start teaching on a leash. When they are solid on a leash, move to a long line. Most pups I teach a recall with a 50' clothesline on them, just in case they think I can't reach them that far out. You start with no distractions and lots of treats two feet away on a leash, and proceed in increments until you can call your dog off chasing a deer as far off as they can hear your whistle. Incrementally! It's the same with everything you teach. 

There are just as many subtleties and tricks to getting a good response out of a dog as with a horse. And just like with horses (and almost anything else), the main ingredient you need is the willingness to keep trying patiently and changing up your tactics until you figure out what works with that animal.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Knave said:


> To add, I get the praise and fun. I am good at that side. It’s discipline that I don’t get I guess in regards to a dog.


Discipline is really just being willing to make a dog do what you ask. Every time you ask, and the dog doesn't do it, and you wander away, you have* taught* your dog to not listen to you. Don't ask if you aren't willing to make. That's all there is to it. You don't yell, you don't punish, you just take the time to get the behavior, reward the behavior, and release. EVERY time. The discipline is really what you impose on yourself!


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

@Avna I understand the concept that you are saying. However, have you ever gone to do something with a horse and someone talked over your head? That is how I feel when I read that. Sure, make him do it, but how? Then you say not to beat him, punish him, or yell at him, but to make him do it. It just doesn’t make sense to me the how. I get call back and down on a lead, but after that I’m not sure how I can make him do it.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

You set a goal and break it into parts. No one will say, usually heh, "yeah just give the toddler a crayon and _make_ him write his name".

Well gotta teach him letters first and the associated sounds. Then getting them used to drawing with it a crayon or "playing". Then you might demonstrate for them to copy or help them physically, all the while using the same verbal cue "this is the letter L" and praising the heck out of them. We can all agree teaching any young child to write for the first time is a long and arduous process. You managed it sooo.... you can train a dog  

There are more crazy dog owners than not. Generally speaking I find the horse community much better at keeping their animals civilised and that is saying something ain't it. Most owners don't realise that they are just relying on their dog to be innately sociable and friendly... works a lot, dogs are bred for that. No one cares about the king charles biting your ankle... >.< So when you ask them to be as patient with them and as strict with them as they would their own children you get looked at like you're out of your mind. LOL and that's why their dog still pees on the carpet at 9 years old. yup yup.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

mmshiro said:


> So, I'd guess the training is the same, the currency varies.


I like that way of putting it.

The *principles* of training/learning/teaching are the same. Regardless of what species, we all essentially learn in the same way. We do more of what works for us, we quit doing what doesn't work for us, or is too unpleasant/hurtful/frightening. We all learn best from instant association, and by these associations we can learn abstracted 'cues'. And at a basic level, we all think the same way too. 

We all have feelings, fears, different motivators, both desirable & aversive, as social animals - humans, dogs, horses, cats, etc - we tend to find more comfort/security in being part of a group, and develop emotional & mental - and health/physical issues too - from being kept solitary or having too little social stimulation. In all species, it seems that punishment is problematic - it may be little understood, causes fear, resentment, anxiety, aggression. 

What is different is the degrees of all of the above - eg. humans(with the help of a vocal language) can learn from associations that may be far abstracted, while dogs need feedback within a few seconds in order to easily associate it, and horses really find learning from consequences that are at all abstracted, even by seconds, difficult or impossible. Horses tend to learn better from pressure/release than many animals, such as dogs & donkeys. 

And then, every one of us, whatever our species, are individuals & specifics of the above apply more or less to us. Eg. IME cats, women and horses don't tend to enjoy being slapped(tho people often tend to want to 'pat' a horse or a dog as a reward). Yet many dogs do seem to enjoy it & I've owned one cat & one horse who loved to be smacked rather hard on the rump! And my MIL loves thumping(she thinks of it as patting, lovingly...) people on the back.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Interesting incident this morning, I was out walking the pack of five. Three mine two I walk. The owner of the big dog, Boxer x G. Dane, was with me. I have no problem with Arthur, he is a boss dog and will try to dominate any dog he meets. He knows better with me, I only have to growl his name and his demeanour changes. 

This morning he met a new dog, a Lab, the owner immediately went into panic mode and so a minor scrap ensued. All noise and growls nothing drastic. Both dog owners were in a twit. No injuries. 

Now, for me, it shows how an animal picks up on the owner fear. 

Had that been two horses scraping on meeting, generally it would be ignored and they would be allowed to sort it out. Personally I would have just walked on and let the dogs do the same. It was never going to be anything major.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Knave said:


> @Avna I understand the concept that you are saying. However, have you ever gone to do something with a horse and someone talked over your head? That is how I feel when I read that. Sure, make him do it, but how? Then you say not to beat him, punish him, or yell at him, but to make him do it. It just doesn’t make sense to me the how. I get call back and down on a lead, but after that I’m not sure how I can make him do it.


It depends on the thing, of course. Every action has a technique. 

Example: sit.

Hey Pup! Want a cookie held right over your head? Tilt your head back, back, aaaand you're sitting! Good boy, you sat! Here's that cookie! 

When the pup is reliably sitting when you hold that treat over their head (usually takes a herding breed about five reps, no lie that's all it takes), put a word on it. SIT! Then start fading out the luring motion. Then start asking for the sit from farther away. 

How do you "make" a dog respond? Walk it back to the beginning. Dog doesn't sit? Go back to the part of the process where he does. 

Example: come.

PUppyPUppyPuppy Come come come come! Atta boy atta boy! (love up the dog). Virtually all pups will come to a squatting welcoming happy voiced person. Not coming? RUN AWAY. Calling. Irresistible. Every time you do a recall you want that dog RUNNING to you immediately. You have to be so rewarding the puppy will give up anything to come to you. 

But until you can bet $100, keep that dog on a string. If for some reason they veer off, keep sniffing the cat, or whatever, give that string a good tug. Then back to PUppyPuppy Come come come! You are building two ideas. One -- recall is a happy enthusiastic activity with a big payoff of joy at the end. Two--there is not another option. 

Dog doesn't come when it is off leash? GO GET IT. Don't keep calling. Don't yell. Don't punish the dog. Just go get it. You blew it, you asked for something the dog wasn't willing to do, cut your losses and don't make it worse. 

All "making him do it" means is going through all the motions to get the dog to execute the command. If you are not willing to do that at any given time, do not give the command. Period. 

Now, if there is no way your dog will sit without you physically picking his front end off the ground and squashing him into a sit, or coming to you without your hauling him in on a winch, then do that, just that once. Then go back later and put better responses on your dog. 

Is that clearer? 

It does occur to me that you may never have taken a dog through an obedience class for beginners. These classes do teach physical techniques to force your dog into the positions you command. Which can be helpful on occasion. But ultimately you need the dog to choose to obey. Why do dogs, or horses, or children, choose to obey? Because you have designed things so that is the best option, that's why. You have designed things so that it is both rewarding to do so and unrewarding not to.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Avna said:


> It depends on the thing, of course. Every action has a technique.
> 
> .
> 
> Dog doesn't come when it is off leash? GO GET IT. Don't keep calling. Don't yell. Don't punish the dog. Just go get it. You blew it, you asked for something the dog wasn't willing to do, cut your losses and don't make it worse.



All good advice! 

When I took on an English Pointer rescue he hadn't been off leash for 18 months as 'you couldn't catch him!' 

He was good at recall in the garden but out on the hills - forget it! He was only interested in hunting. He would come within a certain distance and try to make it into a game of catch me if you can. 

I don't play that game.

So, I got into the van and drove off (quiet single track lane) until I came to the end. Dog was exhausted and jumped straight in the back. 

About three days later he had forgotten and tried it on again, I just opened my door and he was by my side. 

I did, for a couple of weeks, take some tasty treats with me. I would call him whilst walking and he would return, get a treat and immediately left to go hunt bunnies and birds. His recall is now 100% every time. 

I have two calls, if I holler out, "Come, come come." They have to make an appearance, if I call their name they have to come right to me. 

Easy.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Foxhunter said:


> All good advice!
> 
> When I took on an English Pointer rescue he hadn't been off leash for 18 months as 'you couldn't catch him!'
> 
> ...


I did this with my dog who hated car travel (made her sick). She wouldn't come in when I had given her a break running loose by a river -- but she *had* to come because we were 400 miles from home! So I drove off without her. Not really, I just drove away and came back. She was very relieved to jump in the car! Never did that again.


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## Krico (May 13, 2018)

Foxhunter touched on it earlier, but a simple premise that we forget is "think like a horse/ dog and not like a human". I apply this to cattle and sheep work too.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Many of these responses are concise and clearly identify that all training/learning is a lifelong process, for all of us. One must be open to listening to what the animal is telling us just as much as they must be open to listening to us. 


I find it difficult to explain to some people how to teach their dog/horse/chicken/whatever because many people don't seem to be willing to put in the time and effort. 

Sometimes I watch videos of the gurus trying to teach the clueless how to work a horse, and I see mistake after mistake. It is so obvious that the person can't see the way the guru is constantly reading the horse and changing the approach to obtain the desired result. Can clearly see how the student is making mistake after mistake and sending the wrong and confusing messages. 


Really hard to teach people how to read an animal.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

AnitaAnne said:


> Many of these responses are concise and clearly identify that all training/learning is a lifelong process, for all of us. One must be open to listening to what the animal is telling us just as much as they must be open to listening to us.
> 
> 
> I find it difficult to explain to some people how to teach their dog/horse/chicken/whatever because many people don't seem to be willing to put in the time and effort.
> ...


So, so true. I think it might be in a Jean Donaldson book where dog owners and then professional trainers are video'd training the same dogs to heel. The pros kept their eyes on the dog, and rewarded the right behavior _every few seconds_. The dogs' owners dragged the dogs around while looking where they were going -- the dogs behaved, in Donaldson's words, as if they were tied to mobile trees (which, essentially, they were). Every few minutes the owners would remember their dogs and say "good boy!" or jerk the leash. From what I've seen, trying to make people simply pay attention to their animal when it is not misbehaving to the point of inconvenience can be virtually impossible.

Why I train animals and not people!


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Avna said:


> So, so true. I think it might be in a Jean Donaldson book where dog owners and then professional trainers are video'd training the same dogs to heel. The pros kept their eyes on the dog, and rewarded the right behavior _every few seconds_. The dogs' owners dragged the dogs around while looking where they were going -- the dogs behaved, in Donaldson's words, as if they were tied to mobile trees (which, essentially, they were). Every few minutes the owners would remember their dogs and say "good boy!" or jerk the leash. From what I've seen, trying to make people simply pay attention to their animal when it is not misbehaving to the point of inconvenience can be virtually impossible.
> 
> Why I train animals and not people!



LOL! Easier to read animals than people...and they are much more honest. 


When I used to show would constantly get marked down for looking at my horse. Had to figure out how to appear to be looking ahead while keeping an eye on my horse


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