# How did the indians train their horses?



## dawnhoadley

I was just thinking about all the "gimicks" we can use while training our horses and wondered how did the cowboys and indians train their horses?
Horses for wars and pulling wagons ect. I don't know why I thought of this but I wondered if any one knew this answer?


----------



## kitten_Val

I'm sure there will be some people with better (more detailed) answer, but from what I've read indians were in fact quite harsh in their breaking/riding. Horse was meant to work, not something to fuss around working it in round pen, shaking plastic bags and alike.


----------



## MHFoundation Quarters

A lot of indians started their mounts in water. They had their initial fit where they couldn't get dumped and by the time they got them out of the water they were so tired they didn't have any fight left in them.


----------



## pintophile

kitten_Val said:


> I'm sure there will be some people with better (more detailed) answer, but from what I've read indians were in fact quite harsh in their breaking/riding. Horse was meant to work, not something to fuss around working it in round pen, shaking plastic bags and alike.


I have heard this too, which is why it always makes me chuckle when I see a comment referring to the natives and their gentle, spiritual, natural horsemanship techniques.

I too would like to know more about the way they trained.


----------



## dawnhoadley

So far all I can find is how horses were part of the indians herd and that they used natural methods for training but can't really find any thing that says how they did it.


----------



## Tianimalz

I heard it was basically a rodeo, stay on until the horse has no more fight in em. Not really what Hollywood always painted it xD


----------



## Marecare

Gawani Pony Boy trained all their horses for them.

PonyBoy GaWaNi PonyBoy Official Site


----------



## kitten_Val

Marecare said:


> Gawani Pony Boy trained all their horses for them.
> 
> PonyBoy GaWaNi PonyBoy Official Site



Hmmmmmmmmm.......... :lol:


----------



## Allison Finch

People have an unrealistic "mystical" idea of the kind indian horse trainer. However, artists like Russel, George Catlin (traveled with Lewis and Clark), and others who *lived *with the indians and painted their life as they saw it would tell you differently. The training methods were cruel and extreme.


----------



## raywonk

My step uncle lives on a res. and it was not pretty the old ways. The bond that is painted in moves is not true. How many of us would kill our horse cause he is lame or we are hungry.


----------



## CecilliaB

I would put down my horse if it was injured to the point it couldn't live a full life. I would also kill my horse to feed myself...or family and I don't even eat meat. I consider myself to have an incredibly strong bond with each of my horses. But the instinct to protect my children and keep them fed is even stronger. I am glad I don't live in times where has to come to that.

They didn't have vets back then to humanely end suffering. So I don't believe they didn't have a bond at some point with their horses. When desert tribes put down a camel to feed them they say a prayer and the animals sacrifice is recognized and shown gratitude.


----------



## bubba13

I'm sure it varied from tribe to tribe and from region to region. But firsthand account I have read went along these lines:

Catch a horse by whatever means possible. If it's a leg and the leg breaks, there's dinner. Whatever. Tie the other end of the rope to a tree, and wait. Let the horse fight and wear itself out. After a few days tied up with no food and water, it should be suitably ready for breaking. One guy jumps up on the horse, a club in each hand, beats it to make it move off, and steers by means of clobbering either side of the head with said sticks. Sometimes they'd take a mare and foal for long rides. When they got hungry, they'd butcher the foal and carry its carcass along for substenance.

The cowboys would just tie it down, saddle it up, and buck it out. You can still see this with the Argentinian gauchos:










Video: Gauchos in Argentina - Video


----------



## kevinshorses

raywonk said:


> My step uncle lives on a res. and it was not pretty the old ways. The bond that is painted in moves is not true. How many of us would kill our horse cause he is lame or we are hungry.


I would. Fortunately I can drive to the store and get some food and stop off at the vet for something to make the horse sound again.


----------



## Chiilaa

raywonk said:


> How many of us would kill our horse cause he is lame or we are hungry.


----------



## Cherie

I lived for many years around Ute and Navajo Indians in western Colorado. There are a lot of Comanches near us here. The ones I was around tied a horse to a big post with a 20 foot rope and did not offer feed or water until the horse would eat and drink from their hand. [These horses were all caught wild. Most had never been fed - ever.] They literally would starve a horse into submission. I have seen them when they were starved into looking like a rack of bones and then one day you would see the kids riding the horse and herding sheep with it. I have driven past them and seen them wear a saddle for a week or two without it ever being taken off. Some had white scars under their bellies from the girths. I do not think I have seen more brutal 'training' anywhere in my lifetime.

We used to see quite a few horses going through sales with the Bar N brand - the brand of the Navajo tribe. They were always very thin and wormy and looked terrible. I had some of them brought to me by people that had bought them cheap. They were horrible to train. They did not know anything and they were total outlaws if you let them get fat before you trained them. I learned real fast that you started training them while they were poor because they tried to kill you and it took 3 or 4 times longer when they were fattened up first. We used to laugh when one came in. We had a saying for them: "Here comes another one that can not stand prosperity." They would finally train OK and trust a rider, but it took a long time and you could train two nice horses while you fooled with one dink that came from the reservation.


----------



## CanyonCowboy

My Dad used to tell me about how his father and family raised horses for the Cavalry. Apparently you got a little more for a “broke” horse than an unbroken one, but the definition of broke was pretty broad. They would bring in a remuda and pull out a horse. Similar to some of the Native training discussed above, they would snub it to a post in the corral and leave it with no food or water. Only way to get a drink was be led to water. Soon you had a “halter broke” horse. Then you would work the horse with rope and whip. You’d pick a name for the horse, and lasso it. Use the bull whip to make it stop when it felt the rope, and call its name. If it sucked back, or pulled, use the bull whip to make it come forward (pressure LOTS, release). Train until horse running in remuda would stop at name and walk over. Sell horse as well broke because you could call its name and it would walk over. If I remember right they got between $1 and $3 a horse, and part of the fun was watching the recruits get on and “buck out” the horse.

In his defense, my Dad was never rough on a horse when I was growing up, but I would get a real talking to if I was being too rough. He could snap a cigarette out of your mouth with a bull whip too.


----------



## raywonk

Chillaa. That is funny. I guess I should have said it like this from what I have seen and heard horses were no different than most of us look at cows pigs chickens or any other livestock. 
I am sure my family of past would role in their graves to know what I spend on my horses every year. Ha Ha Ha.


----------



## bubba13

bubba13 said:


> I'm sure it varied from tribe to tribe and from region to region. But firsthand account I have read went along these lines:
> 
> Catch a horse by whatever means possible. If it's a leg and the leg breaks, there's dinner. Whatever. Tie the other end of the rope to a tree, and wait. Let the horse fight and wear itself out. After a few days tied up with no food and water, it should be suitably ready for breaking. One guy jumps up on the horse, a club in each hand, beats it to make it move off, and steers by means of clobbering either side of the head with said sticks. Sometimes they'd take a mare and foal for long rides. When they got hungry, they'd butcher the foal and carry its carcass along for substenance.
> 
> The cowboys would just tie it down, saddle it up, and buck it out. You can still see this with the Argentinian gauchos:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video: Gauchos in Argentina - Video


Thought I'd bump this back up because I found some much better videos of gauchos "breaking" horses. I can't imagine that this is very effective, and I can't imagine that these guys are still fertile after taking this pounding:





 




 
It was fatal for this guy, which you'd think would be a clue that this isn't such a great idea:





 
Not really sure what's going on here, but I think it might be one of those robots they use as ************* in the Middle East, that automatically whip their mounts:


----------



## farmpony84

We went to DC for Veterans day and one of the museums we went to was the Native American History Museum. They have an entire section on horses. I was amazed when we went through the exhibits. They not only used bridles (which were absolutely beautiful with the glass beads) but they used bits that were just scary! I mean, they were harsher then any bit I've ever seen and they even had chains. These bridles and bits were hundreds of years old....


----------



## bubba13

Were they actually Indian-made bits or were they filched from the whites?


----------



## farmpony84

Bubba what you posted is some sort of competition that is not Native American. It's definetly a yucky sort of thing though. Yucky yucky...


----------



## farmpony84

bubba13 said:


> Were they actually Indian-made bits or were they filched from the whites?


They were Indian and Mexican made. I don't think I saw any from the English world in the displays.


----------



## Allison Finch

I used to do lectures on early american west horse tack. The two saddles on the front left were womens native saddles. Built very much like sawbuck pack saddles. Men's native saddles wereoften basically padded cushions with or without stirrups. 

Any metal bits they had were stolen from the whites. The early bits were often mexican spades. Later the cavalry "S" bits became popular.

At one of the lectures


----------



## grayshell38

Sounds like the way the Mongolians broke their mounts. Pick one out of the herd, rope it, cut off it's mane, slap a bridle on it and hop on! Saddles are very expensive and most do not use them.


----------



## bubba13

> Bubba what you posted is some sort of competition that is not Native American. It's definetly a yucky sort of thing though. Yucky yucky...


I labelled it with what it is: Argentinian "gaucho" horse-breaking.

I posted it, as I said before, because someone asked how the Old West cowboys broke their horses. The bucking-out process wasn't entirely dissimilar to the method depicted in the YouTube clips from Argentina.


----------



## bubba13

grayshell38 said:


> Sounds like the way the Mongolians broke their mounts. Pick one out of the herd, rope it, cut off it's mane, slap a bridle on it and hop on! Saddles are very expensive and most do not use them.
> 
> Catching Untamed Horses - YouTube


Very cool video--thanks for sharing! Though that guy was kind of driving me nuts....made me want to snatch that catch pole out of his hands and give it a go myself.


----------



## Mike Zimmerman

The Indians learned much of their horsemanship from the Spanish. Even though Spanish law enacted in the early 1600s forbid natives from riding horses with a penalty of death, they learned to ride anyway. As was stated earlier any bits were stolen from the Spanish, but many Indians rode their horses with what would be a hackamore, another training tool they got from the vaqueros.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bsms

My son-in-law grew up in upstate NY. In his early teens (about 12 years ago), he was taught to break horses by first getting them about 150 lbs light. When they were weak, get on and stay on as long as you could.

Teddy Roosevelt wrote about it in "Ranch Life and the Hunting Trail"



















It sounds like both native Americans and us imports used similar tactics. However, Teddy also said that some horses were broken by their owners for their personal use, and those horses received a lot of time and training.


----------



## Skipsfirstspike

Mike Zimmerman said:


> The Indians learned much of their horsemanship from the Spanish. Even though Spanish law enacted in the early 1600s forbid natives from riding horses with a penalty of death, they learned to ride anyway. As was stated earlier any bits were stolen from the Spanish, but many Indians rode their horses with what would be a hackamore, another training tool they got from the vaqueros.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Regarding whether native americans used white man's bits,etc..
Lets not forget that including what Mike said, the whole concept of riding horses was learned from the Spanish. The modern horse is not native to North America, all of the 'wild ' horses that 'once ruled the range' were not wild at all, but feral descendents of the Spanish Barb, brought over in the 1600s. When the Spanish left, a lot of their horses remained behind, and became what we now call the mustang.
So whether the native americans fashioned their own bits, I don't know, I suppose it would have been easier to use ones aquired from the Spanish. I have heard only a little bit about the 'war bridle', which from my understanding is a rope tied snugly in the mouth and under the jaw, similar to what some of the Argentine riders had in some of the posted videos.
I would think the breaking process would have been swift, severe and efficient. I like to think that they werent treated too badly afterwards, as they would have been quite valuable.
Those are my speculations!


----------



## Lins

By 'indians' do u mean natives? Why do people keep saying 'indian'? Is there really that many uneducated people?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Skipsfirstspike

Lins said:


> By 'indians' do u mean natives? Why do people keep saying 'indian'? Is there really that many uneducated people?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you want to get technical, it is 'Native Americans', not just 'natives'. :wink:


----------



## Lins

Obviously, figured I should keep it simple for those that can't figure out the difference between people from India and Native Americans.


----------



## bubba13

Lins said:


> By 'indians' do u mean natives? Why do people keep saying 'indian'? Is there really that many uneducated people?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The politically correct term, as chosen by the people themselves, is actually "American Indian."

Native American name controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## kevinshorses

Was there any doubt who we were refering to by "indian". Native American is a pretty broad term. I'm a native to the american continent. Someone born in Mexico or Canada would also be a native American. Most of the indians that I know don't have a problem being called indian. Will Rogers was half Cherokee and he used to jole that he could play cowboys and indians all by himself.


----------



## bsms

The article bubba13 links says, "During the latter half of the 20th century and the rise of the Indian rights movement, the United States Government responded by proposing the use of the term "Native American," to recognize the primacy of indigenous peoples' tenure in the nation. The term has met with only partial acceptance. Other naming conventions have been proposed and used, but none are accepted by all indigenous groups. Typically, each name has a particular audience and political or cultural connotation, and regional usage varies."

There have been many proposed terms, but none have gained full acceptance. "Native Americans descended from those in America before 1492" is kind of long, and still uses a foreigner's term (America).

At this point, I hope those reading this thread will follow a rule I took far too long to learn: "Don't take offense where none is meant." In my experience, there are enough people in life who WANT to offend you. Save your wrath for them.


----------



## Cherie

My husband is a 'Chickasaw Indian' and that is what he calls himself. He said he is not sophisticated enough to be a Native American -- hates the term. Our son is more 'Indian' than his father. 

They say the 'Tribes' did not need the alcohol, bread, potatoes, Small Pox infected blankets, Diabetes, High Blood Pressure, drugs or Reservations the whites gave them so they do not need the 'title' either.


----------



## bubba13

Did quite a number on them, huh?

I was talking to a friend at school the other day, discussing classes and scholarships and such, and she tells me she's on a minority grant, which surprised me, because she looks as white as white can be. I asked, and she told me she's 1/64 Choctaw. And that's worth $2,000 a year at a private university! I'm not really sure that scholarship is doing much to right past wrongs, but hey, at least they're trying! But then I started whining, because the Irish used to be very badly discriminated against in this country, and *I *should be rewarded for that.... :rofl:


----------



## Marecare

bubba13 said:


> Did quite a number on them, huh?
> 
> I was talking to a friend at school the other day, discussing classes and scholarships and such, and she tells me she's on a minority grant, which surprised me, because she looks as white as white can be. I asked, and she told me she's 1/64 Choctaw. And that's worth $2,000 a year at a private university! I'm not really sure that scholarship is doing much to right past wrongs, but hey, at least they're trying! But then I started whining, because the Irish used to be very badly discriminated against in this country, and *I *should be rewarded for that.... :rofl:


And we all know that whiskey was created to keep the Irish from their rightful rule of the world...ha!


----------



## gunslinger

So, my family has been here 10 generations, first arriving in 1680. Wouldn't that make me a "native american"?

I'd say American Indian would be the correct term.


----------



## kevinshorses

Cherie said:


> My husband is a 'Chickasaw Indian' and that is what he calls himself. He said he is not sophisticated enough to be a Native American -- hates the term. Our son is more 'Indian' than his father.
> 
> They say the 'Tribes' did not need the alcohol, bread, potatoes, Small Pox infected blankets, Diabetes, High Blood Pressure, drugs or Reservations the whites gave them so they do not need the 'title' either.


 
I think about the worst thing that ever happened to indians was the reservation system. Any time a group of people get handouts for doing nothing it destroys the incentive to better themselves. 

My parents lived in eastern oklahoma for a while and they learned quickly not to assume that someone wasn't an indian because they looked "white" and had a white name.


----------



## crimson88

I'm "native american" or "indian" or whatever anybody wants to call me, I don't care! I see myself just as an American.

Not really 100% I'm more like 1/4 cherokee but whatever  People do ask me though if I'm an Indian.


----------



## karliejaye

As for war horses, you should (or maybe already have) read Xenophon's treatise on horsemanship. There were many others in the Greek era who trained cruelly, but he was one of the first to write and promote a more gentle way, and could be considered the founder of dressage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Horsemanship_(Xenophon)


----------



## bubba13

Of course, Xenophon also promoted the use of bits like this one:


----------



## bsms

bubba13 said:


> Of course, Xenophon also promoted the use of bits like this one...


Shush! Don't bring up unfortunate facts!

"It is also well to ascertain by experience if the horse you propose to purchase will show equal docility in response to the whip. Every one knows what a useless thing a servant is, or a body of troops, that will not obey. A disobedient horse is not only useless, but may easily play the part of an arrant traitor."

Still, dressage judging would take a whole new aspect if this were followed:

"In this way he will be able to hold on to the horse more firmly by his thighs; and this erect attitude will enable him to hurl a javelin or to strike a blow from horseback, if occasion calls, with more vigorous effect."

Still, for his day, Xenophon wrote a good book. It is available free online here:

On Horsemanship, by Xenophon

Also, THIS might lead to some new interest in dressage:


----------



## jimmy

hard times,hard people i,m irish brought up in england,and the only thing i don,t want people to call me ,is too early in the morning


----------



## kiwigirl

Interesting thread. I have no knowledge of how Indians broke in their horses but I always imagined it would have been brutal and fast. As Jimmy said, hard times, hard people. 

Right of conquest has been the common thread of the history of humanity, American Indians are not unique. One could say that they have in fact come out a lot better off than some races. Just for example the Moriori, eaten into extinction by the Maori, now a footnote in history, still debated whether they even existed.

Not trying to downplay the injustices done to Indians just pointing out that what happened to the culture was normal for the time as was the treatment of animals then. We now, for the most part, know better and try to do better. You can't fix the past and no amount of political correctness today will change history.


----------



## McGregor Ranch

My husband grew up on the Standing Rock Indian Reservation - he watched some of the old timers break horses -- not pretty. It was as described in an earlier post - they starved them down. The one guy he watched would rope a horse and tie it to a strong post - they would leave it tied there with no food or water. The indian that was training the horse would bring water to it and if the horse wouldn't calm down and drink they would throw the water on the horse and walk away - they would do the same thing with feed until the horse would give in and eat and drink out of their hands. While they were weak they would saddle the horse and run him up and down hills until they were sure he wouldn't buck and then they'd go about training them. My husband, and all his Indian relatives that grew up on the rez all remember eating horse meat at one time or another - along with dog meat. My husband left the reservation because he said he realized "I didn't have to stay there." He thinks the BIA and the reservations should be abolished.


----------

