# Holy big bits!



## cowgirl4753

It takes a very skilled trainer to get a horse into a cathedral or spade bit. They aren't that harsh as the horse has been slowly brought up into the bridle, as its called. To get a horse to accept and work in one of these bits is the epitome of a true bridle horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Phly

I'd be one to think his training may be excellent, just judging by the bits. If he can be that light on the hands, the horse is listening. 

Problem comes when people bit up, harsher bits to correct bad behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cowgirl4753

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/old-school-horse-training-approach-148455/
Check out this thread from awhile ago has some great information about those big scary bits and what it takes to get a horse into one
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Muppetgirl

My horse has and works nicely in a cathedral bit, however daily I ride in him in a ported correction or a square port low correction, - and if I wanted to I could throw a snaffle on him and go too. 

Just because this guy makes these bits, doesn't mean his training is harsh or severe. Some of these bits require quite a skilled hand to make them balanced and functional.


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## tinyliny

I swear to God, I read the title really quick and thought it said, 


"Holy Big Tits". I was ready to jump into my super moderator suit and do some darn quick moderating!


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## Muppetgirl

tinyliny said:


> I swear to God, I read the title really quick and thought it said,
> 
> 
> "Holy Big Tits". I was ready to jump into my super moderator suit and do some darn quick moderating!


But you just wrote it in the thread......haha!


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## tinyliny

I know, I know . . .


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## toto

No one would use a bit like this to break a horse (i hope) theyre for a very well trained horse and rider. 


A bit like that and a spade were what the buckaroos used..


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## SlideStop

The point of those bits is NOT to use them. They get bad wraps because people with lunatic, untrained horses toss these in their horses mouths and yank on them. They don't use them for the reason they were made... Communicating with your horse with the twitch of a muscle. A trained bridle horse will actually hold that bit in their mouths without a bridle, from what I hear at least.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Honeysuga

^^^ What muppet said! lol

Like I said, Im not bashing, but to me that is a big turn off when the first thing I see on a trainers site is buy a correction bit from a trainer as controversial as he.IMO a cathedral or high port bit is a bit of an overkill(pardon the pun).


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## tinyliny

a cathedral bit has to be very well designed and well balanced to be comfortable, but it is, I understnad the horse is very happy and responsive. But, the rider must be well trained, of course


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## toto

Its not overkill-- its for vaquero riding style. Horses are trained to a bosal- then to rein- whitch consists of a spade and a bosal to teach them what the spade means and when the horse is ready they ditch the bosal and use the spade alone- it takes years to perfect and only a very good trained horse would use a bit like that. Definitely not a beginner horse or rider. 

In the right hands no bit is 'too harsh'


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## Muppetgirl

tinyliny said:


> a cathedral bit has to be very well designed and well balanced to be comfortable, but it is, I understnad the horse is very happy and responsive. But, the rider must be well trained, of course


Yes....my horse packs it around quite happily. He was trained well in it and I have good hands and can ride one handed.....it's not a schooling bit.


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## COWCHICK77

I believe Mr. Wells has had a shady past if I remember correctly. 
Going to use the same 'ol stand by.....
"bits are only as good as the hands using them".

Cathedrals, A- frames and other big ports should be used with caution and correspond with the training of the horse rather than skip steps and create the illusion of furthered training by forcing a head set or trying to soften one.

I do not put these bits in the same category as a spade even though several tack catalogs/websites will tout any large port with a fancier cheek as a "spade". It would be great if all used the cathedrals and A-frames were used in the same manner but there is a reason for the braces, spoon, chains and reins. It is about balance and signal, not the pull. and it takes a lot of prep to get to that point. There was a reason for the series of bosals and bosalitas before just the spade is used, it is all prep to be able to pack the bridle properly without pulling-using the subtle signal as possible.

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with the bits as long as the groundwork has been laid to use them rather than a shortcut.


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## tinyliny

Was it you who had the long and detailed informational thread about the making of a bridle horse?


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## Muppetgirl

tinyliny said:


> Was it you who had the long and detailed informational thread about the making of a bridle horse?


No it was Wanstrom....but she just vanished:-(


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## cowgirl4753

Ya I miss Wanstrom, I hope everything worked out with her delivery and baby.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel

I always feel so frazzled when someone brings up the spade bit. I have no idea how it is the "best bit ever" or something to that effect... 

If it works for your horse, I'm glad. But I don't think my horse would do well in that at this point.


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## Golden Horse

I would LOVE to ride a horse in a spade bit at sometime in my life, because then I would know that I had made it as a rider, totally independent seat, so light in my hands that I could ride with a thread of cotton, riding the ultimately well trained horse, so in tune that we seem to read each other thoughts.

*LE SIGH* I should have started on the quest many years ago.


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## soenjer55

cowgirl4753 said:


> It takes a very skilled trainer to get a horse into a cathedral or spade bit. They aren't that harsh as the horse has been slowly brought up into the bridle, as its called. To get a horse to accept and work in one of these bits is the epitome of a true bridle horse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I highly suggest reading this thread or even tossing a message at Wanstrom about bridle horses and these bits. I learned an astronomical amount of information from her and this thread, and definitely gained a new respect for this style of training and the equipment used. I used to see these types of bits and sneer, but now that I've learned what I have about them, I'm very impressed and ashamed at how quickly I jumped to conclusions only because I happen to live where there are a lot of harsh "trainers" who think all it takes to be a vaquero is a big old bit and a prancy, scared-looking horse. Of course, I would never dabble with any of these bits, but in the right hands, it's amazing what will happen.


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## tinyliny

cowgirl4753 said:


> Ya I miss Wanstrom, I hope everything worked out with her delivery and baby.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


that's right! she was expecting her first. we should pm her and see how it went. Ok, sorry for mini thread hijack.


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## Muppetgirl

tinyliny said:


> that's right! she was expecting her first. we should pm her and see how it went. Ok, sorry for mini thread hijack.


A few of us have PMed her.....she's just vanished Tiny.....


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## Muppetgirl

Golden Horse said:


> I would LOVE to ride a horse in a spade bit at sometime in my life, because then I would know that I had made it as a rider, totally independent seat, so light in my hands that I could ride with a thread of cotton, riding the ultimately well trained horse, so in tune that we seem to read each other thoughts.
> 
> *LE SIGH* I should have started on the quest many years ago.


Me too.....I think I'm only going to stay at cathedral level (just)......thanks to my great horse! :lol:


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## oh vair oh

I agree, it would be my greatest achievement in life to be able to ride properly in a spade bit.

I think you are confusing using a big bit for beating into submission rather than using a high ported bit with long shanks in order to communicate subtlety on an extremely draped rein - i.e. western pleasure or western performance.

Lest not judge a man on the bits he uses, but on the man's record of animal abuse. I believe it's the infected bloody spur marks you have to watch out for with CW.........


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## Honeysuga

Thats what i was getting at. More the bits in connection to his record.

I was put on the naughty step for bashing big bits when thats not what i was intending in the first place. Posting a thread while cooking supper doesnt always promote good explanation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## oh vair oh

It's okay, I don't think any of us like CW, but we will defend to the death our right to use cathedrals and spades effectively.


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## Honeysuga

And power to you for having the skill to use them. I dont think id ever have the confidence in myself to use one but thats just me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lunarflowermaiden

oh vair oh said:


> I agree, it would be my greatest achievement in life to be able to ride properly in a spade bit.
> 
> I think you are confusing using a big bit for beating into submission rather than using a high ported bit with long shanks in order to communicate subtlety on an extremely draped rein - i.e. western pleasure or western performance.
> 
> Lest not judge a man on the bits he uses, but on the man's record of animal abuse. I believe it's the infected bloody spur marks you have to watch out for with CW.........


And breaks a horse's jaw somehow.





 I wonder if it happened when he did something like this (not the horse that he broke the jaw of).


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## Muppetgirl

Lunarflowermaiden said:


> And breaks a horse's jaw somehow.
> 
> Cleve Wells Clinic "soften up" - YouTube I wonder if it happened when he did something like this (not the horse that he broke the jaw of).


Oh geez Louise......ya that's effective......if he's doing that with a snaffle ON CAMERA in front if people....imagine what he'd do when no ones looking:shock:


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## hisangelonly

omg that guy should not be a trainer O_O. if a trainer EVER did that to my horse, there would be problems! And I am not sure how he is teaching softness. putting the head down doesn't mean soft or collected. ick.


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## jaydee

I struggle with the idea of them because they're alien to me - from a British background where these sort of bits have no place though different things are always drifting in but they do tend to be more of a band aid for bad riding and bad training than the purpose these ones are designed for
Used correctly by experienced riders for refinement they aren't a problem, its when people that don't have the experience get their heavy handed paws on them that it worries me


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## Golden Horse

jaydee said:


> I struggle with the idea of them because they're alien to me - from a British background where these sort of bits have no place though different things are always drifting in but they do tend to be more of a band aid for bad riding and bad training than the purpose these ones are designed for
> Used correctly by experienced riders for refinement they aren't a problem, its when people that don't have the experience get their heavy handed paws on them that it worries me



LOL, they are foreign to me as well, and I'm still laughing at my discovery, Big Ben, my English horse, not long started and going happily in a snaffle, he will only need a 'bigger bit' on the unlikely event that we reach a higher level of dressage, and then he will need a double. I have though got a pelham in his size in the tack room, and if I suddenly find that we have a brake failure I will have no hesitation in pulling it out and using it, for those exciting situations like cross country and jumping (chances of him ever doing those things slim to none but still)

Emmy will have to go into a curb to show Western, so I'm working at getting her as soft as possible, because I don't want to have to engage the leverage action as brakes, just as a way of allowing my cues to be very subtle.


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## Fort fireman

A lot of people don't realize how distructive a simple snaffle bit can be and judging by that video neither does this yahoo. I think if this guy did this to my horse he would have found him self with a fat lip, on his back and kicking in the sand. It's that you pop my horse in the mouth I pop you in the mouth sort of thing. I've never heard of him but I think I'll never look into him again past this thread.

That being said i have no problem with a cathedral or spade in the hands of someone knows the deal and if the horse has been prepared.

The spade bit is NOT , NOT , NOT a leverage bit. i repeat NOT a leverage bit. It is a SIGNAL bit and should be used as only a signal bit. 

What do i mean as a signal bit? here is a little run down of how they work , as I understand it.( I am NO expert) Just a student on the path to enlightenment, and along way from it.

The spade has a spoon, roller or cricket, braces, and a cannon bar( or the cross peice. The horse learns to pick this whole thing up and hold the bit with its tongue. The cricket or roller is designed for the horse to roll with his tongue which inturn keeps the horse from bracing on the bit and soft in the jaw and inturn inthe poll. It's physically impossible to be clinched in those places when they are rolling there tongue around on the cricket. The spoon is balance to hold a neutral position in the mouth. If the horse raises his head and "roots" his nose out the spoon will raise off the tongue and rest on the roof off the mouth. if the horse drops past vertical the spoon will rest on the tongue. This allows the horse to find that "sweet" spot of release to carry his head.( Now this sweet spot should have already been worked on in the hackamore stage.) Now the signal comes in as your riding the horse is holding the bit and and you get ready to ask for something yo lift the spoon to tell the horse" hey I'm going to ask you to do something". Then your body takes over with your legs and seat. the two rein will be used to get to this point before the horse is ever even thought to be straight up in the bridle. Which is to say the horse will carry the bit without ever having the bit used for a long time before the bridle reins are ever used. 
The second you actually pull on the reins with a spade you are no longer using a signal bit, your using a leverage bit. As I said before, a spade is NOT, NOT, NOT a leverage bit.

These describe far better than i ever could about the spade.





 




 
A catherdral bit is NOT a spade. Even though some tack adds will call it that. The work of off the bars of the mouth and soft pallate of the horse where as the spade is working on the tongue and soft pallate.


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## jaydee

OMG - That video was awful (Clive wells) I'd be amazed if that poor horse didn't have a split right across its tongue after that. How can he even think himself a horseman?
*Wanstrom *had a Youtube channel and that disappeared too. I hope nothing went wrong with her pregnancy


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## Fort fireman

this is a pretty decnet video of a spade bit to. the good stuff starts around the 1 min 30 sec point. Martin Black is a LOOOONG way ahead of that other guy. 





 
I hope nothing went wrong with Wanstrom also. i accepted her friend request and then she was gone. i was starting to get a complex.:shock:


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## Golden Horse

Fort fireman said:


> i was starting to get a complex.:shock:


A complex what? :rofl:

Does anyone actually know Wanstrom, like in real life? Another one hoping that she is OK, and just to busy living to worry about being online.


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## Golden Horse

Fort fireman said:


> i was starting to get a complex.:shock:


A complex what? :rofl:

Does anyone actually know Wanstrom, like in real life? Another one hoping that she is OK, and just to busy living to worry about being online.


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## Muppetgirl

Golden Horse said:


> A complex what? :rofl:
> 
> Does anyone actually know Wanstrom, like in real life? Another one hoping that she is OK, and just to busy living to worry about being online.


I know there is one member here that 'knows' her.....but they haven't heard from or got hold of her either.....


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## sinsin4635

I'll tell you what., I would string that #%#stard up & put daylight through him if he did that to my horse! :evil:


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## COWCHICK77

For those who are interested in learning more about Spades and that style of training look up "Classical Californio Horsemanship" on Facebook. It is a closed group but ask to join. Bruce Sandifer has neat little videos and there are some good reads and information if you feel like wading through some of the other stuff. 
I like Martin Black but he doesn't offer a whole lot of info or videos on his website although there are links to some of his articles.

Also, I haven't heard from Wanstrom either. She had a lot going about the time she vanished and plus it is spring time, a very busy time of year if your ranching/cowboying


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## Ian McDonald

COWCHICK77 said:


> For those who are interested in learning more about Spades and that style of training look up "Classical Californio Horsemanship" on Facebook. It is a closed group but ask to join. Bruce Sandifer has neat little videos and there are some good reads and information if you feel like wading through some of the other stuff.
> I like Martin Black but he doesn't offer a whole lot of info or videos on his website although there are links to some of his articles.


WHY did you never tell ME about this! =P


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## waresbear

I believe Wanstrom was about to have a baby herself, too bad she disappeared, I want to see baby pics!


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## COWCHICK77

Ian McDonald said:


> WHY did you never tell ME about this! =P


Super secret Facebook stuff *eyeroll*, as if anything on FB is secret :lol:


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## Skyseternalangel

COWCHICK77 said:


> For those who are interested in learning more about Spades and that style of training look up "Classical Californio Horsemanship" on Facebook. It is a closed group but ask to join. Bruce Sandifer has neat little videos and there are some good reads and information if you feel like wading through some of the other stuff.
> I like Martin Black but he doesn't offer a whole lot of info or videos on his website although there are links to some of his articles.
> 
> Also, I haven't heard from Wanstrom either. She had a lot going about the time she vanished and plus it is spring time, a very busy time of year if your ranching/cowboying


I just have a hard time understanding it since it looks the equivalent of a ratcheter on a ratchet strap with the spoon spade type thing going into the horse's mouth.. it looks crazy. I cannot comprehend why this is a good thing.


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## COWCHICK77

Skyseternalangel said:


> I just have a hard time understanding it since it looks the equivalent of a ratcheter on a ratchet strap with the spoon spade type thing going into the horse's mouth.. it looks crazy. I cannot comprehend why this is a good thing.


It can be intimidating looking, but think in these terms- when you hold a spade bit in your hand much how it would lay in the horses mouth and on the tongue, the braces, cannon bar and spoon all together can distribute pressure over a large area. BUT, the bit is NEVER to be pulled on, I can not stress that enough. Another way to look at is, what would feel better to you should I try to poke in the chest with one finger or the palm/flat of my hand? Again, not meant to be pulled but you see how easy it would be hold it in their mouth.

One can tell if the horse likes the bit and accepts it readily if he will hold it in his mouth without the use of any headgear. One of our horses loves a Grijalva spade we have, you can walk out in the pasture and stick in his mouth without a headstall and he will hold it on his own accord while playing with the cricket, eyes soft and relaxed. You stick another one in him and he will spit it out on the ground. Mouth conformation, preferences and natural headset do play a role since the horse has to find the balance in the bit(like FF was describing earlier, and why there are so many variations of these bits) and be comfortable, it has nothing to do with forcing a horse into position or using pain to create a desired response. It is about preservation of the mouth, signals-not pulls and balance. 

I attached a couple of pics of hubby roping a bull calf on Zorro in a spade, not the best pics, but you can see he is on a loose rein, head is level but ears showing he's paying attention and no tail swishing. He is obviously not stressed about the bit or scared he is going to get his face yanked off.

It's not for everyone and I will never try to convince everyone that this is the _only_ way to train horses. I just want people to understand that is not about pain and intimidation.


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## LesandLily

Muppetgirl said:


> I know there is one member here that 'knows' her.....but they haven't heard from or got hold of her either.....


I don't know her personally but I have talked to her on the phone a couple of times and last just before she gave birth. I know her and her husband were planning on going up to high cow camp after the baby was born and would not have cell or internet coverage for several months. I believe they were planning on going up around the first week in May. I am planning a photo shoot with her. I hope all went well for her and her family. 

Cheers! 
Les


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## Fort fireman

Skyseternalangel said:


> I just have a hard time understanding it since it looks the equivalent of a ratcheter on a ratchet strap with the spoon spade type thing going into the horse's mouth.. it looks crazy. I cannot comprehend why this is a good thing.


Another thing alot of people don't realize with a spade is how long it take for the horse to even get to that point. The horse may be in just a hackamore for 2,3, or 4 years before it ever has that bit in its mouth. Even then it is still ridden with a smaller hackamore called a bosalito/ bosalita under the bit. It learns how to carry the bit and then gradually has more bit and less bosalito used. This may take another 2,3 or 4 years. Then the horse will be straight up with just the bit. However it may drop back to the two rein if it needs some refresher. As opposed to bitting up or using force. Like you see with other types of riding sometimes. 

Also the horse is never tied by the reins, is not lead by the bridle reins. Just to preserve the mouth. Quite often they still wear the bosalito under the bridle with a get down rope so there is no need to lead the horse by the bridle reins. 

The whole style is about the mouth of the horse and finesse. However it isnt for everybody and is also very easy to misuse if the rider doesn't have the hands for it. I do not. YET, but I'm working toward it. This is my goal for my horsemanship.


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## smrobs

Les, thanks for letting us know! I was worried about her too.

Chick, love the pix . Love to see a good horse and cowboy doing their thing.

As for the whole "big bits" thing, most of them have their place (though there are some that I don't agree with using...ever...like tiny twisted wire with weighted rings or double twisted wire gags with long shanks and the like), but it all depends on the ability and needs of horse and rider. I _can_ ride in a spade or a cathedral but I don't. Maybe it's just because I'm lazy, but I don't want to take the time to properly train a spade horse when most my horses handle _almost_ as good in a simple curb bit. So, none of mine have ever been trained for the bigger bits.

I have an incredible amount of respect for those that take the time and have the ability to turn out a good bridle horse.

I see the OP's point though, it's not just the bits, but the person they are being sold by that causes me to cringe because I've seen how he uses them.


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## Golden Horse

Fort fireman said:


> Also the horse is never tied by the reins, is not lead by the bridle reins. Just to preserve the mouth. Quite often they still wear the bosalito under the bridle with a get down rope so there is no need to lead the horse by the bridle reins.


I never ever tie by the reins, but I didn't realize or even think about leading by the reins when they get to that stage.


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## nrhareiner

First the name correction bit is not correct. These bits are not ment to correct anything. Once you have a horse ready to go into the bridle these are the type of bits you use. All mine end up in a Cathedral bits. They are great cueing bits. They run more into the area of a pre cue but then next step up would be a spade bit. Do not confuese a Cathedral with a spade as they are not the same bit. Each has it uses. As you go up you get more into the pre signle bits vs a contact signle bit.


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## COWCHICK77

smrobs said:


> Les, thanks for letting us know! I was worried about her too.
> 
> Chick, love the pix . Love to see a good horse and cowboy doing their thing.
> 
> As for the whole "big bits" thing, most of them have their place (though there are some that I don't agree with using...ever...like tiny twisted wire with weighted rings or double twisted wire gags with long shanks and the like), but it all depends on the ability and needs of horse and rider. I _can_ ride in a spade or a cathedral but I don't. Maybe it's just because I'm lazy, but I don't want to take the time to properly train a spade horse when most my horses handle _almost_ as good in a simple curb bit. So, none of mine have ever been trained for the bigger bits.
> 
> I have an incredible amount of respect for those that take the time and have the ability to turn out a good bridle horse.
> 
> I see the OP's point though, it's not just the bits, but the person they are being sold by that causes me to cringe because I've seen how he uses them.


I agree smrobs and to add to your post, I am not what I would call a "purist". I have no problem hanging a hinged port or something else I have hanging handy with leather split reins. *gasp* :lol:
Some folks that are really hard core into it won't even use a half breed or snaffle. Gwen Turnbull-Weaver says and I quote:
"Most other shanked bits are what are known as "leverage" bits. The standard curb, the Texas born grazing bits, the Buster Welches and the new flexing "broken ports" are but a few examples of the low port leverage bits of our modern day.​ A leverage bit works predominantly off of pressure on the curb strap. This is supported by the fact that leverage bits typically have a low port and are often coupled with a chain curb strap to increase the intensity of the pressure when needed. Since it is the pulling or in some cases yanking on the reins that immediately engages the curb strap or chain pressure, a port of any size is of little importance.​ *The horse trained and ridden in a leverage bit is not taught to carry the bit or have any sensitivity to its shape or configuration. They most often just respond to the curb strap pressure. A rider’s goal when using a leverage bit is to engage the curb strap as quickly as possible to achieve the expected results, that is to stop or at least slow down.*​ The vast majority of horse owners use leverage bits. The leverage bits are simple to understand; pull until they stop, and if that doesn’t work, pull harder. For those who only want to dabble in horse ownership, those who do not want to completely submerge themselves in the unplumbed depths of horsemanship, the leverage bits are probably the best answer. They will require more effort and energy to operate but require less preparation, sensitivity and knowledge to learn."​
I think this statement(especially the bolded part) is a huge assumption! Any bit can be mis-used whether it be a "leverage" or "signal" bit. For her to say as a whole horses are not to taught to pack a cathedral, A-frame or any other ported curb is rather ignorant and close minded. Yet brings it back around to who is hanging it in the horses mouth and the intention behind using the equipment.


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## tinyliny

Cowchick's description of how the horse holds the bit in his mouth and closes his mouth and zones out reminds me of how a baby takes a pacifier and just goes into the peace and pleasure zone.


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## smrobs

Chick, that is so true. In spite of just using regular old curb bits, I prefer my horses to pick them up and carry them on their own instead of just letting the bridle keep them up and "packing" them.

Dobe even gets ****y if you don't let him carry his bit. If the bridle is even 1 hole too tight and he can't carry the bit where he wants it, he's very obvious about his feelings LOL.


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## bsms

COWCHICK77 said:


> ...It's not for everyone and I will never try to convince everyone that this is the _only_ way to train horses...


More than one way to train a horse? THAT'S a radical thought in modern horsemanship! Odd thing is, from what I've read, there seems to be at least a dozen "only ways"...:wink:

Your quote from Gwen Turnbull-Weaver:"The horse trained and ridden in a leverage bit _is not taught_ to carry the bit or have any sensitivity to its shape or configuration. They most often just respond to the curb strap pressure. A rider’s goal when using a leverage bit is to engage the curb strap as quickly as possible to achieve the expected results, that is to stop or at least slow down."​Hmmmm....the only horse I've used a curb bit on is Mia. I grant she does NOT like having the curb strap engage. However, as I have it adjusted now, it takes about 60 deg of pull for the curb strap to tighten. That is ample warning, and she increasingly responds before the curb strap comes into play. Thinking about our last week of riding, there is only one time I think it might have engaged, and then it would have been from a flick of the wrist - so maybe a quarter second of engagement, and maybe not then - I didn't flick very hard. (Someone went by on a bicycle with a tiny two-stroke engine. It had a weird whiny noise and Mia jumped. I flicked my wrist, she stopped, and I scratched her neck until the bad thing went away).

I think the proof of a bit for a given horse is their behavior. Mia felt she had the option of ignoring a snaffle, and that led to nervousness and head tossing. She doesn't feel she can ignore the curb, so she accepts the idea that the rider is in control - and that calms her down. And that calms me down, and that calms her down...and so on. When a horse is interested and relaxed at the same time, how can anyone argue the bit is harsh? With Mia, a fat, O-ring French-link snaffle is a harsher bit than the curb, because she will fight the snaffle and relax in the curb.

I will never have the patience, skill or use for a spade bit. However, it is obvious some do, with impressive results from the horse. It seems to me the horse is the ultimate judge.


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## Saddlebag

Tiny, I wish you hadn't printed what you did because now whenever I go down the menu, that's what I see. Lol


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## Mike Zimmerman

Hi folks, I hardly ever come to this site but I wanted to expand on what has already been said about the spade. 
For a spade bit to truly be a signal bit it has to have a loose cheek. The surface area of the spade allows the horse to carry the bit. When you signal through a rein, you are only operating within the range of play the loose cheek has. The horse feels the resulting rotation between the brace and cannon bar. The horse is trained to respond to that feel. At the point when you signal beyond the range of play in the cheek and you engage the port/spoon and curb, the bit is then functioning like any other leverage bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny

Saddlebag said:


> Tiny, I wish you hadn't printed what you did because now whenever I go down the menu, that's what I see. Lol


I know. It's awful! But, see, doesn't it look that way?


Mike,

can you explain what you mean by "loose cheek". 

I am totally new to spade bits.


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## Saddlebag

The cheek pieces will swivel, not solid.


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## cowgirl4753

Yes they have a slight amount of play in them
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fort fireman

This video kind of shows the cheek pieces around the 3 minute point. Before that he's talking about the leverage but I think we've covered that the leverage is not to be used with one of these.


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## CatrinaB87

COWCHICK77 said:


> I believe Mr. Wells has had a shady past if I remember correctly.
> Going to use the same 'ol stand by.....
> "bits are only as good as the hands using them".
> 
> Cathedrals, A- frames and other big ports should be used with caution and correspond with the training of the horse rather than skip steps and create the illusion of furthered training by forcing a head set or trying to soften one.
> 
> I do not put these bits in the same category as a spade even though several tack catalogs/websites will tout any large port with a fancier cheek as a "spade". It would be great if all used the cathedrals and A-frames were used in the same manner but there is a reason for the braces, spoon, chains and reins. It is about balance and signal, not the pull. and it takes a lot of prep to get to that point. There was a reason for the series of bosals and bosalitas before just the spade is used, it is all prep to be able to pack the bridle properly without pulling-using the subtle signal as possible.
> 
> In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with the bits as long as the groundwork has been laid to use them rather than a shortcut.



I only ask this because I'm still pretty new to the game, but if the idea is to use the _least_ amount of force/correction/whatever to get the biggest results, then why aren't these hot shot trainers riding around in a snaffle? I just find it difficult to wrap my head around the idea that the better trained horses are the ones with the higher ports, or am I misunderstanding the concept all together?


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## bsms

CatrinaB87 said:


> ...but if the idea is to use the _least_ amount of force/correction/whatever to get the biggest results, then why aren't these hot shot trainers riding around in a snaffle?...


There is no connection between using the least force and using a snaffle. A snaffle isn't gentle, and a curb isn't mean. It depends on the horse, the training and the rider.

Mia is an independent mare. I like that. When we are together, I'm constantly aware that she is a thinking, interested party and that we are riding together. But she knows she can clench her jaw, stretch her head, let the snaffle pull against her molars - and ignore it. If she is feeling like doing what I want, then the tiniest pressure works with a rope halter. If not, then she will fight and ignore a snaffle because she knows she can.

Use a bit that adds pressure on the poll, and all that changes. She doesn't try to fight it. As a result, every time she listens and good things follows, she becomes more willing to do things my way - because my way works. In that sense, I'm using a curb for training. And that training is gentler than when training her with the snaffle because I don't have to darn near rip her head off to get her to obey.

But a finished horse is different. A finished horse IS listening. So now it becomes a matter of how much movement you want to communicate something to the horse. And there is a lot more to how a bit can send signals that just pressure on the bars with a snaffle.

A common misconception is that the high part of the mouthpiece is used to create pain in the mouth. In reality, those "Big Bits" (sorry, Tiny!) make it easy for a horse to hold the bit in his mouth, rather than having it held by the rider. And now, tiny motions of the riders hand, transmitted via slack reins, will feel different on the horse's tongue and face, and he'll respond. It works because the bit in a trained horse is for *communication*, not punishment.

Mia and I are not there yet. We may never be, because my goals for Mia are pretty simple and my riding style reflects my low expectations.

I captured this picture for a different reason, but this is not my approach to riding. Doesn't make it wrong, and I consider myself a very novice fan of competitive dressage...but this is not my goal in riding:








​ 
In some ways, a snaffle is the harshest bit. It communicates with the horse thru the mouth. Curb bits add the poll and sometimes the jaw, and thus some of the communication is outside the mouth. And if you have the skill and patience to teach a horse to respond to the vibrations of a bit the horse is carrying on its own, you are probably getting the most sensitive & gentle bit possible.

Truth in advertising: I rode Mia in a rope halter for 3 years and she steadily degraded during that time. I rode her in a snaffle for about a year, and she mostly did fine. But that other 1% was terrifying. When your horse is galloping down a trail, headed for a sharp turn she will never make at speed, and you are pulling so hard on the snaffle that your back will be sore for 3 days, and she is swerving and fighting to *RUN*...it gets your attention.

BTW - I used the pulley stop that day to keep her from killing both of us. You can never have too many tricks in your bag of skill...

"Mia the PITA" at the end of today's good practice session:


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## CatrinaB87

bsms said:


> A common misconception is that the high part of the mouthpiece is used to create pain in the mouth. In reality, those "Big Bits" (sorry, Tiny!) make it easy for a horse to hold the bit in his mouth, rather than having it held by the rider. And now, tiny motions of the riders hand, transmitted via slack reins, will feel different on the horse's tongue and face, and he'll respond. It works because the bit in a trained horse is for *communication*, not punishment.
> 
> 
> In some ways, a snaffle is the harshest bit. It communicates with the horse thru the mouth. Curb bits add the poll and sometimes the jaw, and thus some of the communication is outside the mouth. And if you have the skill and patience to teach a horse to respond to the vibrations of a bit the horse is carrying on its own, you are probably getting the most sensitive & gentle bit possible.
> 
> Truth in advertising: I rode Mia in a rope halter for 3 years and she steadily degraded during that time. I rode her in a snaffle for about a year, and she mostly did fine. But that other 1% was terrifying. When your horse is galloping down a trail, headed for a sharp turn she will never make at speed, and you are pulling so hard on the snaffle that your back will be sore for 3 days, and she is swerving and fighting to *RUN*...it gets your attention.



I don't know why I didn't even think of that. Probably because of my lack of understanding! That also explains why my gelding likes to run with his head up! Through reading some posts on this forum I have learned of these Jr. Cowhorse bits, which I would like to give a try because I hear they are pretty mild but good communicators. Have you heard of these?


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## bsms

I have no expertise as a rider, let alone on bits. After Mia ran away with me a couple of times from the excitement of 'racing' another horse, a lady on HF asked me if Mia put her head near horizontal doing so. When I said yes, she explained that is a way horses can 'get the bit in their teeth'. The bit doesn't need to go in their teeth, but pulling back on a snaffle in that situation only pulls it against their molars and it is easy for a horse to ignore.

I initially switched Mia thru a variety of snaffles, and then tried a gag (or elevator) bit with her. It doesn't have a curb strap, but it adds pressure on the poll. She did pretty well with that. 










Then I tried the bit below:









She was initially frightened if the curb strap tightened, so we spent some time walking with me on the ground and trying to get her used to the idea. She now seems to understand that the curb strap doesn't need to engage if she listens first. Each side can move back 45 deg without moving the other side, there is no joint to fold in the middle of the mouth, and the sides swivel out so it is easy to use a leading rein with it. Combined with a lot of practice at making perfect stops (one of my recent "Of course" moments was learning that I cannot expect an excited horse to stop well on the trail if she won't stop perfectly when calm in an arena) and practice neck reining, she seems to be softening. It is a lot easier to keep her standing still when something scares her. Then the scary thing goes away, and she has started to realize that standing still can work better than bolting.

Since I'm not in any way an experienced rider, I can only share what I've tried. I did recently try this with Mia:










That may be something like what you are talking about. She did OK in it, but she seems to neck rein better in the more solid one I showed above.


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## bsms

Here are a couple of pictures of my favorite bit to show how it moves:



















Hmmm...looks like the bit needs a bath!


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## CatrinaB87

very interesting, I'm headed to my LTS just as soon as they open. Ill have to see what I can find


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## Skyseternalangel

COWCHICK77 said:


> It can be intimidating looking, but think in these terms- when you hold a spade bit in your hand much how it would lay in the horses mouth and on the tongue, the braces, cannon bar and spoon all together can distribute pressure over a large area. BUT, the bit is NEVER to be pulled on, I can not stress that enough. Another way to look at is, what would feel better to you should I try to poke in the chest with one finger or the palm/flat of my hand? Again, not meant to be pulled but you see how easy it would be hold it in their mouth.
> 
> One can tell if the horse likes the bit and accepts it readily if he will hold it in his mouth without the use of any headgear. One of our horses loves a Grijalva spade we have, you can walk out in the pasture and stick in his mouth without a headstall and he will hold it on his own accord while playing with the cricket, eyes soft and relaxed. You stick another one in him and he will spit it out on the ground. Mouth conformation, preferences and natural headset do play a role since the horse has to find the balance in the bit(like FF was describing earlier, and why there are so many variations of these bits) and be comfortable, it has nothing to do with forcing a horse into position or using pain to create a desired response. It is about preservation of the mouth, signals-not pulls and balance.
> 
> I attached a couple of pics of hubby roping a bull calf on Zorro in a spade, not the best pics, but you can see he is on a loose rein, head is level but ears showing he's paying attention and no tail swishing. He is obviously not stressed about the bit or scared he is going to get his face yanked off.
> 
> It's not for everyone and I will never try to convince everyone that this is the _only_ way to train horses. I just want people to understand that is not about pain and intimidation.


 This is why I like and respect you. You went above and beyond to explain how it works to me, and then provided pictures. You're incredible

This makes a lot more sense  And now I understand why it's so well regarded. Kind of like the goal of riding is to have a horse highly responsive but also a rider that gives quiet effective cues. And this bit has the same goal.

Thanks again!


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## OliviaMyee

Hopefully ill be able to ride in a leverage bit, but ive started to re break in my horse bridle-less in a halter and i have no trouble stopping her so maybe ill keep it that way.


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## COWCHICK77

tinyliny said:


> Cowchick's description of how the horse holds the bit in his mouth and closes his mouth and zones out reminds me of how a baby takes a pacifier and just goes into the peace and pleasure zone.


Great comparison! Never thought of it that way.(you can tell I do not have children! LOL) The horse I posted pics of before is very expressive of his moods, he has no issue with letting you know he doesn't like something. Especially when it comes to bits and over cueing 



CatrinaB87 said:


> I only ask this because I'm still pretty new to the game, but if the idea is to use the _least_ amount of force/correction/whatever to get the biggest results, then why aren't these hot shot trainers riding around in a snaffle? I just find it difficult to wrap my head around the idea that the better trained horses are the ones with the higher ports, or am I misunderstanding the concept all together?


There shouldn't be no force when using the spade. Like Mike described earlier the cue comes from the _feeling_ that comes through reins, cheek then braces and mouthpiece. Not the engagement of port or curbstrap. At this point the horse is taught to find the balance in the bit and the curbstarp is used to help keep the bit in place and not to be used as correction. 
The movement in the loose cheek "wiggles" the braces. That is where the feeling is. If you touched your left rein and caused the left cheek of the bit to move it also slightly moves the brace. If you were to hold one (spade bit) in your hand with your hand closed on it then engage the cheek, it doesn't take much, you can feel the brace move in relation to the cannon bar. 
With a snaffle contact is used to cue. There is not a lot of pre-cue, if any, to the bit itself using a snaffle and on a sensitive horse it can be easy to get one to hide or get behind the snaffle or get heavy if not used correctly. So to say the snaffle has the least amount of correction wouldn't be correct if you considered contact or engagement of the bit as "correction".
I am not down playing the snaffle as I like them and have at least a dozen different kinds hanging in my tack room and use them. 




Skyseternalangel said:


> :smile: This is why I like and respect you. You went above and beyond to explain how it works to me, and then provided pictures. You're incredible
> 
> This makes a lot more sense  And now I understand why it's so well regarded. Kind of like the goal of riding is to have a horse highly responsive but also a rider that gives quiet effective cues. And this bit has the same goal.
> 
> Thanks again!


No problem! I am no means an expert but I have been learning through the years and have been thankful for the information that has been passed to me and enjoy educating others with what I know. It is exactly like you say, a responsive horse comes from a effective rider. And a quiet horse comes from a quiet rider. The bit is a result of the training not the means. :grin:


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## Muppetgirl

Just for interest sakes.....this is a very impressive bridle horse, even though the rider doesn't have a draped rein - notice how that horse works of the neck rein pretty much the whole time? I'd die and go to heaven if I could ride a horse like this!!!


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## COWCHICK77

I never get tired of that video, I think that horse is pretty handy


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## jaydee

That is an amazing video. When you look at how soft, responsive and unrestricted that horse moves you realize that a long/draped rein does not essentially = light hands and riding on a short rein that appears to have a lot of contact doesn't actually mean you're hanging on the horses mouth. I think that's something many people don't realize
Its all down to the ability and expertise of the rider and the work they've put into the horse


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## CatrinaB87

I love watching his videos! Those two are obviously a TEAM!


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## GotaDunQH

Good ole CW, he uses the fear and pain methods. So while his techniques are unsavory, what does it say about the customers who use him? Both are to blame. 

The bits in the first post...I've used them on my WP horse. Here's a pic below....happy little relaxed camper just jogging along. But notice the drape in my rein.










And I've shown him on an even longer drape! He has a big bit in his mouth, but all it takes in some lower leg from me and a one inch raise of my had, and he makes adjustments. That slightest raise doesn't even begin bit rotation in his mouth...but what it does is....he can feel the change in the rein, and that's his cue. 

I can make the simplest snaffle harsh if I want too. So a bit is a bit....just depends on the training level of the horse and rider.


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## Mike Zimmerman

A traditional california spade bit horse will work more like the Spanish doma vaquero horse in the video than a western pleasure horse. There is the speed of the Spanish style but with a looser rein.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OliviaMyee

bsms said:


> Here are a couple of pictures of my favorite bit to show how it moves:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm...looks like the bit needs a bath!


I like that bit ! It looks heaps better than a snaffle !


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