# Pelham vs Elevator Bit? Or none?



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

When and how did she start this habit? What triggered it? Did she used to be fine about picking up the canter?


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## LoveTheSaddlebreds (Jul 9, 2009)

I know this mare. Used to be perfect, great pleasure pony. Easy as pie to ride and you could ride on fairly loose reins. Out of nowhere she started acting like this. Pain/discomfort/sickness all ruled out completely. She gets very violent about it and already has a 'marish' attitude so when she gets mad, she gets ****ed.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

"Out of nowhere."
So no event precipitated it, no one else was riding her, and she's had a completely thorough physical exam, including dental stuff and reproductive tract issues? How does she act for an expert trainer?


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## countercanter (May 18, 2011)

Well if all health/pain issues have been ruled out, a stronger bit isn't going to be your answer...especially an elevator bit. They are meant to elevate the horse's front end, which is what she is doing when she throws her head in the air.


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## LoveTheSaddlebreds (Jul 9, 2009)

bubba13 said:


> "Out of nowhere."
> So no event precipitated it, no one else was riding her, and she's had a completely thorough physical exam, including dental stuff and reproductive tract issues? How does she act for an expert trainer?


Yea, she was lame for a year so she had off. During that time and afterwards, she's had many thorough exams and check ups. Now that she's not lame and coming into work, it sprung up. Vets and farriers have checked her completely to make sure she is not in any sort of pain.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

If it truly is 'mareish' behaviour, I'm sorry to say that for me it would either be pain, or rider error.

How does she lunge? If she's done this for a while, she'll probably do it on the lunge first too. I'd suggest lunging in gummi reins, so she has nothing to pull against except herself, after a couple of sessions, side reins. If its a learnt behaviour she will have to learn that a) she can't take the **** and throw her head up or b) fighting doesn't help. That way you aren't in the saddle. When she start messing round, send her forward forward forward. Let her run, let her run. If she wants to knacker herself out, let her, when she tries to break in to trot, send her forward again. She isn't going to relax straight in to an outline, but as soon as she releases that pressure in her neck, allow her to trot, or slow the canter down.

Please don't fix her head with side reins though, leave enough room to tighten them up, and don't ride in them. if she goes up she can't use her front to balance herself, and may tip.

Don't use a stronger bit, look at buying a thinner version of what you've got in her. If she's having problems and you change to this bit, three weeks time you'll have to change again. Find out why she's doing it. If she goes under saddle, get a jesus handle, and let her get it out of her system, knot your reins, and make sure they're secure, don't pull, and let her run as much as she likes providing she doens't try and buck you off, just hang on,she'll realise fighting is futile if she has nothing to fight against.


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Have you tried putting a martingale on her?


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

ErikaLynn, I'm a fan of martingales, but in this case, if you have it too long it won't make a difference, and if the mare is being mareish, she needs to realise tossing her head up in the air won't make any difference, and the martingale will give resistance...


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

DuffyDuck said:


> ErikaLynn, I'm a fan of martingales, but in this case, if you have it too long it won't make a difference, and if the mare is being mareish, she needs to realise tossing her head up in the air won't make any difference, and the martingale will give resistance...



I don't really understand what you're saying. You should adjust the martingale so it's not too loose.

But if you use a martingale, a standing martingale, then the horse wont be able to throw her head up and avoid the bit. Once the horses head goes in the air then most mouth contact is lost which makes the horse some what out of control.


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## Bluemoonlvr (Feb 20, 2010)

Yes I have a standing martingale. I do lunge her but not in side reins. I double lunge her with a harness. This way I have control on the bit and her head instead of side reins but i dont like to rely on them. And its not rider error bc she does it with everyone. And also its not pain bc I have had her checked out many many times.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

A martingale is used to prevent a horse putting its head to high, so at some point there is going to be resistance, the rings of the martingale against the reins, which she will feel in her bit.

From own experience horses evade contact and throw their heads up if they are in pain, or are being plain good ol' naughty. Best and quickest rememdy is for them to learn that there won't be any resistance, so head tossing has no point... 

I was meant to write if its normal, or too short it'll give her something to fight against, sorry! Thinking about the reply in my head and not writing it down.. what a muppet!

Just my own opinion!


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

To me it sounds like she would much rather "hang out" then work, and is trying to avoid any type of contact to her mouth. A stronger bit is not really a good idea especially since she it trying to avoid the one she's using now.


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

DuffyDuck said:


> A martingale is used to prevent a horse putting its head to high, so at some point there is going to be resistance, the rings of the martingale against the reins, which she will feel in her bit.
> 
> From own experience horses evade contact and throw their heads up if they are in pain, or are being plain good ol' naughty. Best and quickest rememdy is for them to learn that there won't be any resistance, so head tossing has no point...
> 
> ...


I meant a standing martingale...not a running martingale. It attaches to the nose band not the reins. I agree with you if you used a running martingale


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## amschrader87 (Oct 30, 2010)

If you really want to fix the problem you might need to go back to the basics. Since she's had time off she might have just developed an attitude. 
Stronger bits and gadgets aren't going to fix the problem they may **** her off more. Or just cover up a problem without actually fixing it.
If its truly not a pain issue then you might have to gain her respect back from the ground up.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I would not use a standing martingale. Such resistance would likely cause the horse to panic or resist harder and possibly rear and flip.

Use of any gadgets will likely only fix the problem while said gadget is on. The horse needs to be ridden in such a way that the issue is corrected by training and riding. A running martingale may help the rider to gain control in the situation but will not itself fix the issue, if infact it is a training issue and not a pain one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

anebel- trying to like your comment, but this computer will not let me!

I agree gadgets aren't a long term solution, but if the mare has learnt up and go, she may need some assitance in learning that long, low, and round is the way to go.. not give the rider a black eye. By lunging in side reins, or gummi reins, the horse can realise, learn or relearn how to go in a more correct fashion without harm coming to the rider, its then the rider's responsobility to further the training and keep the horse moving like this.


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

DuffyDuck said:


> anebel- trying to like your comment, but this computer will not let me!
> 
> I agree gadgets aren't a long term solution, but if the mare has learnt up and go, she may need some assitance in learning that long, low, and round is the way to go.. not give the rider a black eye. By lunging in side reins, or gummi reins, the horse can realise, learn or relearn how to go in a more correct fashion without harm coming to the rider, its then the rider's responsobility to further the training and keep the horse moving like this.



I also agree with you. Gadgets are just a tool. I use a standing martingale because when the horse throws their head up you lose all contact with the horses mouth then the horse is out of control. Once they pick up that habit of avoiding the bit it's very difficult to get them to listen to you with again. The martingale will help you be able to get the horse used to bit contact and it's easier for the rider to teach the horse without having to worry about losing control.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

I still agree with my earlier comment, and anabels clarification... when ridden, a head thrower that encounters any resistance will throw up harder, and go up harder, then maybe fall on you.. you want to be able to throw away your reins, otherwise the horse is learning every time it tosses there is resistance from a martingale, hands, reins, anything.


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

DuffyDuck said:


> I still agree with my earlier comment, and anabels clarification... when ridden, a head thrower that encounters any resistance will throw up harder, and go up harder, then maybe fall on you.. you want to be able to throw away your reins, otherwise the horse is learning every time it tosses there is resistance from a martingale, hands, reins, anything.



Oh, I never had a horse throw their head up more or harder when using a martingale. Ever. Not using one, yes..I've had horse throw their head up and take off with me..and whenever I pulled back to slow them down...I had no control of the horses head what so ever. 

If you keep the horse moving forward, they can't rear up. It's very difficult to get the horse to listen to your hands, legs or seat when it's head is in the clouds.


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

my horse is pretty hot to begin with. So, this last weekend we have had a bit of rain. He's been relegated to his stall for about 72 hours. I would lunge him a bit to get the spice out and then hack him around under saddle. I have chosen to use the loose ring gag for days that i know he's going to give me hell. It works for me.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

72 hours?


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## amschrader87 (Oct 30, 2010)

I was thinking the same thing..


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

If you're thinking about using any martingale use it FIRST when lunging. She's already edgy, and I think a standing or running martingale might make her explode, so better to be on the ground and watching, than to be aboard her. I think your mare has a gap in her education. Being a mare she may have been bred THEN broken. A year off perhaps reminds her of her "Life of Riley", and I think she'd rather not work. Or, she may have been rushed when broken. Horses have an awesome memory for bad experiences.
I have both martingales. I used a standing martingale on my babysitter QH ("Ro Go Bar", 1982-2009, RIP) bc he would throw his head when at a halt at Reenactments (often during the battles). With the martingale, the head throwing ceased. I have used a running martingale when I wanted to keep one of my horses under better control with a snaffle, and I would keep it on *IF my horse didn't get fussy with it.*
Back off of the schooling you are doing with her*.* Take her back to the basics, and praise her for everything simple that she does correctly. 
I was taken back recently while watching "Dressage Symposium"
RFD-TV :: U.S. Dressage Symposium
Michael Poulin commented that we don't give our horses enough praise and asked the audience to consider the punishments during a schooling session and whether they also praised their horse. Often we just expect our horses to perform after they've mastered a skill like an automan. _They really do want to please us._ Horses are not children. They won't get arrogant and turn into little monsters just bc you vociforously tell your mare she did a good job. I've only owned 6 mares (vs ~ 25 geldings), so when I bought my great mare 3 years ago, I decided to make her feel special. Now she ALWAYS comes up to me in the pasture, and I let her do things that her 5yo herd mates don't get to do since I can't trust them like I can trust HER. I tell her what we're doing when we work, and she says, _"Okay, 'Duck!'_) (Duck is my family's nickname for me, lol.) She'll blow, "hello" when she's near me at the fence or gate. I think if you can go back and get your mare to trust you, you'll be able to work through this. Sorry for the treatise!! =b


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## Bluemoonlvr (Feb 20, 2010)

Well today, I just got done riding and I used a standing martingale and at the canter i keep circleing her until she started to soften up, the went back on the rail and everytime she would speed up i just circled until the point where we could canter a lap at the same pace. And she did really good


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

MIEventer said:


> 72 hours?


yep. sadly, at my barn they lock everything up. so other than hand walking, there's no where for the horses to go when it rains.


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## amschrader87 (Oct 30, 2010)

No wonder he's hot if he has to be in a stall for that long. No offense im sure your options are limited. 
I had a horse that was like that but when I switched him to field board he was do much happier and calmer.


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## olympustraining (May 5, 2011)

Has anyone thought to check the saddle? is it the same one she was in before the injury? If it is, it's likely her back would have changed and if it wasn't a good fit to begin with it might be bothering her even more. Often horses develop head tossing when they are slowing down because there is pinching or 'crashing' down of the pommel onto the withers and/or shoulders. May be something to try and look into to at least rule that problem out. 

Does she do this on the lungeline w/o the saddle? While bareback? If not that is likely your problem.

I agree with some of the other posters, pain is the most likely answer.


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## heynonnynonny (Oct 10, 2018)

*The give and take*

Rather than punishing her for her head going up, reward her for when she leaves it down

When some horses meet resistance, they go UP. After a year off, she needs some time to get used to being back in work. If she grabs the bit and runs, rather than a hard, constant pull (which sends her head up), try a strong take and then GIVE. It's counter intuitive to the "she's going fast, I've got to stop her" instinct that gets triggered when they book it but it's important when training babies (or mares reluctant to return from vacation)

Maybe try a running martingale instead of a standing. That way you have a little more "give and take" action rather than just a hard pull on her mouth. 

I specialize in working with OTTB babies =)


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

heynonnyonny......


Welcome to posting on this forum.


In the top left corner of every post and thread you will see a date...
The thread you just posted on is from 2011...
Although still a pertinent topic, _this is a old thread_ and no longer one people had been making comment on.
Just so you know how to determine age of posts...


Again..._welcome to our forum._
_hlg..
_


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