# The Tucker 1902 Universal Pattern Copy



## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

The Tucker Troopers are singularly unimpressive. They are HEAVY. Weigh more than any saddle I've every owned, including the largest Western saddle in the family. A friend had one designed (so Tucker said) for wide backed horses she loaned to me while I was waiting for a saddle to come int. Well, perhaps it would have fit a small warmblood that a 7" spread would fit, but not most of the ones I've dealt with.. I'd hate to see a person who didn't have good upper body strength try saddle one of my girls with it. A Trooper should not weigh 30+ lbs (it's suppose to be a saddle, not a boat anchor).

The maker of my Trooper probably isn't doing it anymore, and another maker went out of business years ago after a lot of flooding. You might want to try Haggis (not the Scottish food). They're out of Canada. You can tell them how you want it. Troopers use to be the only saddles Haggis made. Could still be.

Ok, looked it up. Haggis appears to still be making. I'd forgotten about Keith Parrish (probably because he never got back with me when I sent him measurements and was thinking about having him make a Trooper for me several years back) ), but I'll attach the link to him too.

The Saddle Guy

Haggis Trooper Saddles


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Tucker "claimed" a weight is 28 lbs.

Saddle Guy claimed weight is 26 lbs.

Haggis Standard claimed is 22 lbs.

Haggis w/Lite Weight Panels and slick seat claimed 16 lbs.

12 pounds off the Tucker for a smaller horse starts to add up.

Tucker has three pommel widths and require three crosswise measurements on the back with one lengthwise down the spine plus pictures of the horse standing square. I do like Tucker's fitting requirements. But they do have a lot of leather bling that adds up to extra weight. Part of it is in the gel cushion seat.

Tucker does not ask about the length from the scapula to the last rib which bothers me but they ask for more info than any other.

The Saddle Guy shows a feather weight in his custom pictures but does not mention weight. I reckon a guy just has to call the Saddle Guy and Haggis.

I really like the idea of the exposed side bars for checking fit when the horse changes. Seems the bars could also be easily changed to fit another horse. The 1912 with the swivel panels looked alluring until I read about the problems and that the British Calvary had went back to the 1902 fixed.

Your comments are food for thought on the Tucker. I am currently using an early 90's Crates Endurance with a claimed of 28 pounds. It'd be nice to lose some of that weight. I've weighed the roping saddles here on the ranch and they weigh in at 60 lbs. Now those are a job to swing up on a horse. I can just lift mine straight onto my 14 hh Hondo.

Edit: Just read that Keith Parrish used to work for Tucker.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

)) I suppose if I'd removed her stirrups and stirrup straps that Tucker might have dropped to 28. Leather straps with fenders and non endurance stirrups do add up.

There are actually more features about a regular style of UP/Trooper saddle (the standard seat type) that many people are unaware of. If you look under the seat you can see all the straps. They can be adjusted to alter the seat. I've never bothered, because it's already where I want, but it can be done. The militaries that went to the Trooper (all the old United Kingdom's Empire) stayed with them. The made various updates to the design (some successful and some note), but the basics of that saddle has remained pretty much unchanged. A rather limited saddle for doing some cattle jobs (for anything that requires a horn...e.g. roping...it's useless), but other than that it's probably my favorite saddle design. Basically, anything that ever gets messed up can be relatively easily seen and repaired. Relatively light with round the same weight as the McClellan (many of the early ones, like the early McClellan, didn't have the flaps). Displaces weight well and allows for pretty much any activity the "English" style saddles allow for. Capt. Dolan apparently knew what he was doing (he's given most of the credit for the design).

But I'm sticking with the saddles Randy made for each my mares. At least until the grow out of them (which should be some years since these replaced their original saddles). Never a had a saddle that fit any better than these and "if it works right don't fix it". )))


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Right. The stuff I read said they were specifically designed to be repaired in the field with a screwdriver and a piece of string. The string was probably for the seat. Not sure about the screwdriver.

Nolan wrote a book. Most of it on military strategies but I may purchase it just to read his wisdom on saddles.

The seat design was made to be able to almost automatically adjust to a narrow or wide human seat. Except for roping and such, I think it's well thought out and designed.

Another specific design criteria I read that Nolan considered was the fact that most of the riders were not horseman but doing it for the job or because they had to but not as a horseman. So it was supposed to cover incorrect riding positions and such.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Right. The stuff I read said they were specifically designed to be repaired in the field with a screwdriver and a piece of string. The string was probably for the seat. Not sure about the screwdriver.
> 
> Nolan wrote a book. Most of it on military strategies but I may purchase it just to read his wisdom on saddles.
> 
> ...


I'm going to guess that what you heard about the "screwdrive and piece of string" was either meant tongue in cheek or they were talking about a different saddle other than the UP. The German WW II saddle might meet that qualification, but the UP/Trooper won't . I can safely say that from personal experience. It's easier to fix than most saddles, but it's not that easy.

Dolan was a bit of character. He was considered, even by his detractors, to be a consummate rider. Loved and cared about horses. He was also apparently....what's a nice way to say it..."difficult"? )). People apparently either liked him or hated him. His commanding officer blamed him for the debacle at Balaklava during the Crimean War, but since he was killed in it no one will ever hear his side. His detractors made him a scape goat. His supporters defended him as not being to blame. Hard to believe that in the British Army during the 1850's that a Capt (a company grade officer) would have been able to cause an entire Bde to do the wrong thing (Capt's don't command Bn, let alone Bde), but Col's and General's don't like taking the blame for their screw ups and since Dolans CO openly hated him and he was dead, he made a very convenient person to blame. 

)) most riders today aren't horsemen. Maybe they should all get UP saddles? Not sure it would help though.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

its lbs not miles said:


> )) most riders today aren't horsemen. Maybe they should all get UP saddles?


Why do you think I was so hot to get one? 

Here's a couple of pictures of my EBay find. That metal coming out the cantle looks to be brass so I'm thinking it's lagit WW II. I'll be looking for markings and will check with the experts to see if I can pin it down. Anxious to try it out.

Cost about 1/10 of a new Tucker Trooper. Plus, I just like the idea of original.

I'll see if I can find the article about the screwdriver and piece of string. It was a serious article about Nolan and the men who developed it but they may have lapsed into a little exaggeration.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Why do you think I was so hot to get one?
> 
> Here's a couple of pictures of my EBay find. That metal coming out the cantle looks to be brass so I'm thinking it's lagit WW II. I'll be looking for markings and will check with the experts to see if I can pin it down. Anxious to try it out.
> 
> ...


 
 So long as you're ok with the fact that it's not a UP saddle. I'll dig up some UP photos. That really does have all the markings of a German WW II saddle. Seat is wrong for a UP. They don't have that a deep seat or the tabs for removing the seat that this saddle has. It does look like the real thing though. I don't know of anyone making those WW II German Army saddles today. Not even sure when the Germans stopped making them, since like most of the western world the horse cav was finished by the end of the war. Although horses did still get used for some German military jobs right up to the end of the war, they weren't Cav jobs.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Ok, first a confirmed WW II German saddle. Notice the seat. It comes up rather abruptly in the front. The spoon (that tab that just out behind the cantle) is below the top of the cantle and coming out separately (also is exposed metal and not leather covered). Note the tabs just below and behind the pommel (used for detaching the seat....a feature the UP does not have). Notice that there is no indication of wood ANYWHERE.

Now look at each of the 3 different, confirmed UP military saddles.
Note that the seats are flatter. You can see that share the distinct pommel common to the UP and none of them has a pommel that looks like the German saddle.. Then there are other features that are common to all UP saddles. You can make out where the metal pommel comes down and attaches to the wood bar. Same is true for seeing the ends of the cantle attaching to the bar. You can clearly see the wood bar coming out behind the flap. Notice how the spoon is actually an extension of the cantle and is covered with leather.

The saddle you ordered is pretty and it does appear to be an authentic German WW II saddle. I just hope you weren't thinking that it's a UP. You'll find that it using flocking vs the wooden bars. The Brits and the US dumped the flocking saddles in the 1800's, but most of the rest of Europe kept them. Which is ok, since they didn't have the amount of area to cover on horseback that the UK and US had (North America, Australia, large sections of Africa).

You'll also find the versions of the UP referred to by other names (such as yeoman saddle, etc....which was not an official name, but people in different places will sometimes have their own name for something.)


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Ok, they didn't show up in the order I selected )).

The German one is the bottom left. You can tell, because it doesn't look like the UP's )).


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Knowing almost nothing about Trooper saddles, other than I have one that probably weighs in at around 20 lbs, maybe you two could tell me a little more about what I have?









The stirrup leathers thread through covers that are little more than a leather flap with a sheath for the straps:









All I really know about it is that it is super comfortable for both me and my high withered mare. And me saying it is comfortable is sort of strange as I've ridden in western saddles my entire riding life (50 years or so?). I picked it up for under $100 on a whim!

So - what do I have?


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Change said:


> Knowing almost nothing about Trooper saddles, other than I have one that probably weighs in at around 20 lbs, maybe you two could tell me a little more about what I have?
> 
> View attachment 856993
> 
> ...


You have a trooper with a padded seat. The maker used more leather in covering the bars (normally they are partially exposed behind the flap), but you can clearly see where the maker either shrank fit, or formed the leather around the wooden bar. Not a standard practice since normally the point of the UP/Trooper is about getting more with less .

Couldn't tell you who made it. Could have been any of several makers. Some no longer in business. If it's about 20 lbs it almost certainly wasn't made by Tucker :lol: and I don't think it has the look of the ones made by Haggis, but that's not certain. It is a Trooper though. They're one of those saddles that are easily identified with a glance if you're familiar with them.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

The seller said it had been attributed to either German or Japanese but did not know.

So sounds German for certain. Somewhat similar seat but with flocking is much different. I'll have to wait until I get it to know if I'm glad or sad. Your top picture appears to be a 1912 swivel UP which I did not want for certain as I read about problems with them. The second looks like it may also be a swivel. Bottom right looks like a 1902 rigid which is what I thought I was getting. And what I thought I wanted. I didn't know about the German saddle.

I guess this is how I learn. It'll be more fun than spending the money in a bar anyhow. I have looked at the English saddle design and they seem to have bars also but different. This is a whole new area for me as I just don't know anything really about the English design and what the flocking really is or does. Guess I'll be learning soon enough.

But it does sound like I won't be able to swap out the bars for a different size/shape as I was thinking.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Here's a picture of the bottom. I wondered about it actually. But the price was so right I went ahead. So that's an English style bottom with flocking for certain huh? That might be good as the hopes were to have a shorter saddle for Hondo's short back. Providing it's the right width. The spine channel looks sort of narrow but maybe part of that is flexible. Have to wait and see I guess. Next week hopefully.

@Change Have you used the saddle and how do you like it?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Found this video showing the disassembly. This lady seems to like the saddle.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Here's a picture of the bottom. I wondered about it actually. But the price was so right I went ahead. So that's an English style bottom with flocking for certain huh? That might be good as the hopes were to have a shorter saddle for Hondo's short back. Providing it's the right width. The spine channel looks sort of narrow but maybe part of that is flexible. Have to wait and see I guess. Next week hopefully.
> 
> @*Change* Have you used the saddle and how do you like it?
> 
> ...


Oh yes. That photo tells it all . You can see how it's flocked.

Even back in the day (1968), when the only riding it did was on a Dressage or a Jump seat saddle, I always saw flocking as the way of making the saddle fit better since it was conform to the horse over time. Of course then you have to get it reflocked at some point, but with the other style trees you have to get new saddles at some point. Horse's backs change. Between 11 - 14 I thought Jump seat was the greatest thing and I never wanted to ride anything else. Then came back to the US at 14, had cattle , was given my own horse to train (my grandfather believed a person needed to know more than just how to ride ), and I never went back to an "English" style again. Except for the stock saddle I had for a time, but I ended up giving it away (you should have seen that little girls eye's when I had her come out to my car and give her that saddle....I think she probably slept with it for the first few days).

You can get short saddles. Both my mares have short backs. I don't think my Trooper was more than 20" long, if that (it's loaned out at the moment). My current two saddles are about 25" long, but part of that is the leather (I resist calling it "skirting" since that conjures images of more "skirt" than they have...the leather goes just beyond the bars where it's stitched.). The bars probably aren't but about 20".


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Found this video showing the disassembly. This lady seems to like the saddle.
> 
> The Amazing German Cavalry Saddle - YouTube


As the seller said. It could also be Japanese since they rode the European saddles, but it's the design of the German saddle regardless of where the saddle was from.

The video is better than the pictures I put out for you in showing how it can be taken down in the field. The seat comes right off and the whole saddle is laid bare. Makes repair easier for not major issues. The maintenance aspect of the design is beautiful. That's why I had those photos from before. I was always impressed by that concept. Now if Dolan had just added something like that to his design for the UP ))). Would have been tough though for the UP since the leather for the seat is actually wrapped the metal pommel and cantle and those are bolted to the bars. You could unbolt them I suppose, but I'd hate to have to try and put it back on correctly.

I'm glad you're not despairing. It looks nice and hopefully it will make for a good riding saddle for you and the horse. If not, you can probably still sell it for what you paid for it since it wasn't that much and you can use the disassembling feature as a selling point .


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I found a Japanese saddle on a closed EBay ad. It did not have the lever thing in the back. And they did not have the knee rolls in the front leathers. Mine has the lever, but not the rolls. But the seller said the leather had been replaced. I can see the rolls as being handy as I read they were designed to make it easier to stand in the saddle.

After thinking about it, I may prefer this saddle to a Trooper, depending. Since the bars and flocking can be easily removed, it shouldn't be that difficult to fashion some clips/attachments to be placed on a western style flared bar and just clip them on. That way western bars could be used if desired without any modification to the saddle. And depending on how one chose to attach them to the bars, it seems they could possibly be shimmed to place the bars at a slightly different angle to match any changes to a horses back on a long (days or weeks) ride.

That is what drew me to the Trooper saddle but the German may lend itself even better to that idea.

If that works, seems a guy could have separate bars for different horses even, without needing to purchase a different saddle.

With so many parts I am concerned about the weight but I'll see when it gets here.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Hondo said:


> .
> 
> @Change Have you used the saddle and how do you like it?


I've ridden with it quite a lot, actually, and it is, for the most part comfortable. The only issue I have with it is the leather covers for the stirrup straps. I need to figure out how to keep them from sliding up/down!

This trooper is also the best fit I've found for my very high withered mare. It sits on her nicely without interfering with her movement. She seems to like it best, too.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Change said:


> The only issue I have with it is the leather covers for the stirrup straps. I need to figure out how to keep them from sliding up/down!


Would snaps work?


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

I think it had ties, originally. I may have misplaced them when I took it apart to clean and oil (it was filthy and dry when I got it). I didn't even realize there were ties until I went back and looked at old pictures of the parts/pieces I'd removed while I was cleaning.

It's been awhile since I've used it since I've been busy breaking in my RMH colt. My mare is beginning to think she's been retired! LOL!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I started to suggest ties but if you were disassembling after rides thought that might be cumbersome. Well, as often happens to me, just asking the question tickled your memory as to the solution.

BTW, if you want your money back, lemeeno.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Those items that go over the stirrup straps are removable fenders . Personally, I've never seen the need for them when you have a flap that keeps your leg off the horse. Their function is suppose to be to keep you pants clean by avoiding contact with the potentially sweaty or dirty horse, but with the saddle flaps they're a bit redundant. My Trooper came with them too, but I retired them before it ever went on the horse. It's bit like wearing a baseball cap on top of a cowboy hat...what purpose is it going to serve?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I read somewhere that some people complain about the straps sometimes catching a chunk of skin and pinching. I know, "so what", but if people want it the seller will do it. I've seen some with full western fenders.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Hondo said:


> I started to suggest ties but if you were disassembling after rides thought that might be cumbersome. Well, as often happens to me, just asking the question tickled your memory as to the solution.
> 
> BTW, if you want your money back, lemeeno.


I'm thinking that saddle is a keeper!  Besides, I only have 4 saddles for my two horses. That's not nearly enough!:-o


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Well, the saddle I bought off E bay had a broken bar. I had a lot of fun taking it apart and putting it back together and learned a lot. AND, I got a full refund.

Now lookee what I found for the same price. More than $100 but the seller says they paid $750. Seller will find out shipping cost tomorrow.

Appears to be the same as @Change's.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Well shoot. Sometimes people just can't be trusted. The $750 saddle sells on chicks saddlery for $399 new with free shipping.


Saddles Tack Horse Supplies - ChickSaddlery.com 18" Trooper Saddle


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

@Hondo - that DOES look just like mine!


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Just curious -- (not sure if this has been answered earlier in the thread or not) why are you narrowing your shopping to ebay?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Not sure where you got that idea I've limited my searches to Ebay, but I have spent a lot of time on Tucker's site along with Haggis and The Saddle Guy. I also check out Craig's for my area.

I have never seen a Trooper in in any of the local tack stores or D & D feed store which has a lot of used saddles.

Ebay has a fair volume of Troopers and with the exposed bars they are somewhat easily modified for fit, providing the gullet width is within the proper range to start with.

I would just love to haul off and buy anything that I wanted but at 75 YO with a small and limited retirement income I do have to make choices that I did not at one time have to make.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Well, the saddle I bought off E bay had a broken bar. I had a lot of fun taking it apart and putting it back together and learned a lot. AND, I got a full refund.
> 
> Now lookee what I found for the same price. More than $100 but the seller says they paid $750. Seller will find out shipping cost tomorrow.
> 
> ...


Looks a lot like a Tucker.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

its lbs not miles said:


> Looks a lot like a Tucker.




Nope.


Saddles Tack Horse Supplies - ChickSaddlery.com 18" Trooper Saddle


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