# Anyone ever tried this cross?



## hbeyer21 (Feb 8, 2012)

Hey all,
We have a black and white stallion. We don't currently have his papers, but by his markings he could possibly be homozygous. We bred him to my chestnut mare, who has foaled twice already. She was bred to a bay stallion the two times before, and threw both bay babies. Has anyone ever tried this cross before? If so, what did you get? I've done a foal calculator online and its saying 25% bay, 25% bay overo, 25% black, 25% overo. What do you guys think??


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

In order to get an appropriate response, we'd have to know more about what color the stallion was. Black and white. Is he tobiano? Is he tovero? Overo? 

The stallion to have listed in your horses, you say is a tobiano, but form the markings I see, I don't see tobiano in him. Plus, in your foal results you put overo. If he is tobiano, he can't produce a overo unless he carries the overo gene, which would actually make him tovero, not tobiano. Also depends on what your mare carries. Just because she is solid, doesn't mean that she doesn't have a hidden pattern in her genes somewhere. Do you have both the mare and stallions sire/dam history. Have both mare and stallion been tested for LWOS? If both stallion and mare are carries, there's a chance that the foal could be lethal white.

Also, since the stallion isn't papered, what are your expectations with the resulting foals that you are going to have? Do you plan on keeping them or selling them? The horse economy is horrible right now and if you plan to sell, an unregistered foal, you won't get much for it. Maybe a couple hundred bucks. Even registered horses are going below $1000. Just a thought.

Anyways, there are a lot of questions running through my mind. Could you post more pictures of your stallion, and your mare so we can get an better idea of what we'll be looking at?


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## hbeyer21 (Feb 8, 2012)

Haha no, I know what the horse market is. We got the paint stallion from a neighbor who couldn't care for him anymore. The stallion is papered, as is the mare, we just have his papers stored somewhere. We bred these two just to see what we'd get, as we want to start moving into paint showing. I've never had a marked paint before, so I don't know much about the differences in pattern. This pic probably doesnt do much justice, but his right side pretty much looks the same, maybe with a little more black. The black goes up over his rump and he's got a few black patches on his right hind leg. Thanks for your input.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Ok, to me he looks frame overo. Id say google that pattern and do some research about it. Theres some really good information out there. With frame overos though, they can carry lethal white overo syndrome. So before you ever breed with another paint, get him tested. Its $25 bucks and saves alot of heartache. Research all you can on lethal white. If you breed a lwo carrier to another carrier, there is a 25% chance of a dead foal, 100% of the time.

In general, your combinatio. Will likely produce either a chestnut, bay or black base color, and you have a 50% chance of getting a pattern.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

The stallion looks Frame to me also. You absolutely need to test him for Frame, before ever breeding him again. That plus any mares you decide to breed to him. If you don't know about Frame and/or LWO, then you should do your homework, before deciding to breed. Do a google search and it will give you a whole lot of information. 

How is he registered? What breed are your mares? Same breed? Lets hope so. Can you show us some pics of your mare and any others you plan to breed?

Lizzie


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## hbeyer21 (Feb 8, 2012)

The mare is a foundation quarter horse, we won't be breeding any others until we see what this one is. We've had her ultrasounded twice, and she is expected to foal early May. I'm not an idiot, I just didn't know a frame could be a carrier of the lethal white. As far as his bloodlines go, I haven't gotten the chance to take a look. I'm assuming since he's from a very small town in South Dakota, it's mostly midwestern breeders.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

hbeyer21 said:


> Haha no, I know what the horse market is. We got the paint stallion from a neighbor who couldn't care for him anymore.
> 
> The stallion is papered, as is the mare, we just have his papers stored somewhere. *We bred these two just to see what we'd get,*


I'm no color expert so I can't tell you what you will get, but why didn't you do this research before hand? I truly hope that there was a little more behind the breeding decision than purely, to see what we would get??:shock:


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

I don't think anyone said you were an idiot. However, most responsible breeders and especially if they are breeding Paints, know they must test for Frame before breeding. This is a must for obvious and even non-obvious Paints or pintos.

Breeding any coloured breeds, is not for the faint of heart. You don't always get what you had hoped for and sometimes, quite surprising offspring. 

Maybe the previous owner of the stallion, already had him tested for colour and Frame?

Lizzie


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Nobodys saying your an idiot. I find genetics very interesting and like to learn as much as possible. If your going to breed, knowledge is power. :-D Especially having a frame overo. My mare is a frame carrier and its made me rethink who im going to breed to. I had to turn down alot of stallions because they are carries as well. 

Youll have to post baby pictures when the foal arrives!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hbeyer21 (Feb 8, 2012)

Thanks, I guess it's a little frustrating when everyone seems to be ganging up  We have never bred to a paint stallion before, but the mare has produced some outstanding foals. The stallion has a nice disposition, and is great under saddle. We wanted to see a color cross, and the cross of the dispositions as well. I do know he has sired other foals- I just do not know where, who owns them, and what they got! SO, as you can see, I don't know much, just was curious to what everyone thought my crosses could be.
Thanks!


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Just going to point out AQHA horses do carry frame. Frame does not always show. It is extremely good at hiding.

The stud is for sure frame. What about his marking was making you think he was homozygous for color? 

He obviously only has one frame/OLWS gene otherwise he wouldn't be here...


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

What is your stallion's registered name? Give all the info here and someone might just know him or even have his offspring.

And please know, nobody is ganging up on you. We are here to help you and the horse/s you might consider producing. It's just that many of us on forums such as this, often see people breeding without having done the (always) required homework, to become a responsible breeder. There are thousands of wonderful horses going to slaughter each and every day in the US. Every single animal produced, should be most carefully bred in this difficult economy. 

Lizzie


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Your Stallion is definitely looks like he carries frame{OLWS positive}.He & Any further mares he may breed should be tested.
Do you have his registered name & that of the mare that could be looked up?
That can give you more indications to how this cross may turn out both pedigree & color patterning. example:He appears black but if he comes from a line of black horses he may be **** for black that will change your color predictions.
Knowing pedigree,will also tell you if the stud should have any other genetic testing done like that of HYPP or HERDA.
Breeding should not be entered into lightly :-o,these things among MANY others should have been considered before any mating.....


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## hbeyer21 (Feb 8, 2012)

And I understand that, I do. All the foals we've had have been raised and shown by our family. We plan on doing the same with this one (hopefully!)
The only reason (like I said I don't know much about paint markings) that I thought he could be homozygous is due to a couple things I've read online. The markings on his neck, I know they're not exact paw prints, but I wasn't sure if they'd qualify. They are outlined with blue looking skin, which was something I read on Stallings Show Horses paint website. As for his registered name, I'll try to get that later tonight. Thanks!


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

I think someone with a apha membership could look up his get too! So youd be able to see his foals and know who they belong to and if any have any show records. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Pawprints, even on a tobiano, are not linked to homozygousity. It is an old wives tale. There is NO way to tell if a tobiano is homozygous or heterozygous without testing.


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