# Question for western trainers re leg pressure cues



## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

Nuthin, huh. Guess I'm doing ok, then.


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## Creampuff (Dec 1, 2010)

Thenrie, 

I'm just as confused as you are! I've barrel raced, pleasure rode (walk-trot and country pleasure), and trail rode... And all of your cues, I use. All of cues used by the aforementioned trainer? I think I'm as clueless as you are!


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

I'd be interested in seeing the video so maybe I could make an educated guess.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I do much the same way as you, thenrie, though I don't get quite so complicated with mine....or maybe I'm just as complicated but in a different way LOL.

The way I teach leg cues, the horse is to always move away from the leg, what part of the body he moves depends on other cues I give.

Left leg + left rein (neck rein) = right spin or turn on haunches
Left leg + pick up light bit contact + left rein = sidepass to the right
Left leg slightly back + slight bit contact = move hindquarters only over or forehand turn
Slight squeeze equally with both legs = walk
Slight bumping motion equally with both legs = trot
Slight squeeze with both legs + forward seat + left leg pressing slightly harder farther back = lope departure on right lead.

Everything is the exact same with the other leg to go the other direction.

Of course there are many other things I do that get a lot more intricate in regards to bending and straightness or picking a shoulder up or suppling their neck and ribcage but everything I do is a combination of reins, legs and seat.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Inside leg is used to get bend around that leg or to push a horse forward into the bridle. It also helps keep a shoulder up and out of the way. 

Reining cues are very sophisticated. Different horses need more or less emphasis in different places. Starting and training aids usually differ greatly from cues used to elicit the correct response from a 'finished' show-ready horse.

I would have to watch the video to decide if the trainer was asking for bend or 'bumping' the horse up into the bridle more so that it would maintain sufficient forward impulsion to sustain a turn-around of several revolutions. 

If you are really interested in getting into reining, find a reining trainer in your area and take a few lessons or at least ask if you can watch some of the schooling. There also are several very good video series by top trainers. Tim McQuay and Shawn Flarida both have video series out. The NRHA has a lot of information out there.


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## Norma M Sutton (Sep 18, 2012)

*Cherie* reining cues sound more like what I was use to using in basic dressage. The little mare I have now was trained as a western trail mount. It took me about a month to realize it wasn't her it was me causing her turning problems. I was taught right leg to move the barrel left and right rein to move the head to the right side. Still using the arm and leg on the same side, but when I would press my left leg to her she expected to move to the left and I was expecting her to move to the right ;P We finally got it worked out and now are on to other things


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Thenrie - I have no idea - I've always done things how you describe. can you post the video link?


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

I'll try to find the video link again. It was just something that came up while I was looking for something else.

Cherie: Thanks for that nice explanation. From what you said, I think he was training the horse to bend around his leg. I think I'll take your advice and find a local reining trainer who will let me watch and ask questions. While I'm not a professional trainer, I enjoy training my horses very much, and I think I do a fair job of it, at least as far as a solid trail horse goes, but I'd like to know more and get better.

And thanks all for the responses. Don't know what happened the first time.


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

Found the full video clip. Apparently the one I saw first was only a clip out of this video. In this, and other videos, he fully explains what he is doing (all though I find it hard to keep up with him). It is Doug Phipps. He has a bunch of videos out on Youtube, offering free training tips for the rest of us. Way above my level, but I love watching him work the horses. He never lets them lose focus. Always firm, consistent, but gentle in his handling of the horse.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't get that. For one thing, his timing is really abrupt. And it looks like he is just training that horse to drift through his shoulder.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Hmm. He doesn't say what his objective is, but I can only guess he is combining flexion and circles into "one" to get him "light".


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## Amanda B (Aug 15, 2012)

Bend happens in a horse's body, through the ribcage. This is not teaching bend, it is teaching rubber-necking which is a very bad habit.


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

Amanda B said:


> Bend happens in a horse's body, through the ribcage. This is not teaching bend, it is teaching rubber-necking which is a very bad habit.


Just so you know, from what I gather about Phipps, he is a world-class reining trainer. Other than that, I don't know much about him.


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## Amanda B (Aug 15, 2012)

I'm just pointing out that his concept of bend is not biomechanically accurate. Also, it is an accepted fact from 100s of years of masters of horse training that one of the things a trainer of young horses has to accomplish is to anchor the base of the young horse's neck, which typically is overly flexible naturally, and develop the flexibility of the top of the neck. 

There are plenty of people winning in competition that i wouldn't want to emulate. Anky vangrunsven comes imediately to mind. Or Annette Lewis Jack Rockwell's Photos | Facebook


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Amanda B said:


> Bend happens in a horse's body, through the ribcage. This is not teaching bend, it is teaching rubber-necking which is a very bad habit.


As thenrie pointed out, bending "alone" isn't what he is teaching. Flexion isn't bending - but it is required for "softness" in all things (turns, stopping, spinning, etc.,). I start flexion at a standstill...but I am not a pro - he is...he can "combine" stuff w ease and good results, apparently.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I finally had time to watch the video... He is doing exactly what he is supposed to be doing to teach a 'resistance- free' turn-around. Everything he is doing is to teach the horse to give up any resistance and stiffness, to bend the correct amount through the body, to 'track up' (hind feet following exactly in the line of the tracks the front feet made), to keep the inside shoulder up and 'open' and to be ready to correctly turn around when the outside rein is tightened to 'block' the outside shoulder from going forward. If you will look at the result, it is perfect. When he feels all of the resistance is gone, the horse is ready to keep his head where he wants it, keep his inside shoulder up and maintain his forward impulsion so that when he blocks that outside shoulder, the horse will continue with the exact same cadence and exact same bend -- only he will turn around while the inside hind foot is firmly anchored. You cannot ask for a better result that he is getting from this colt. He is happy, his tail is quiet, he is not resisting anywhere and he is doing it with no outside spur and no antagonism from his rider.

He is not teaching 'rubber-necking'. The outside shoulder is not pushing out of the prescribed circle. He is giving his face to the trainer willingly. The trainer is 'picking' at him until he gives him more bend through the neck than he is asking for. He is wanting the horse to NOT straighten back up and NOT try to escape the bend he is asking for. That would be the resistance you are trying to get rid of. Horses that have a lot of 'push-back' and keep trying to escape the exercise, are not as good a prospect or are not ready to ask for the turn-around. It is just right if you get this kind of turn-around when you first ask. He is doing it just right.

'Rubber-necking' is something a horse initiates when it is trying to escape the rider's intent. 'Softness' is what you get when the horse is accepting the 'over-flexion' because you are asking for it. This horse is very obviously between the riders legs so it is not rubber-necking at all.

Let me give you some of the reasoning behind the amount of flexion and bend being asked for. You always 'over-ask'. You always ask for more than you need and more than you will accept in the finished product. You want horses to lope on a prescribed circle until you ask it to leave the circle and go straight or go somewhere else. If you set a horse on a circle,it should stay on that circle with the correct bend and no resistance for 100 circles if that is what you want -- and he should it on a loose inside rein You cannot have it straightening itself out until you ask it to do that. Exercises like the one he is doing, teach this. He is being 'abrupt' every time the horse does not leave its head where he put it. He is also 'dropping' the rein instead of just moving his hand forward when the horse has earned a loose rein by doing the right thing. These are all of the things he wants to in place before he asks the horse to turn around.

This guy can come and ride any of my horses any time he wants to.


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## Amanda B (Aug 15, 2012)

^^^ That makes a lot of sense to me, and really correlates with what I see happening in the video. I do believe he knows what he's doing, his explanation, word choice just doesn't jive.


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