# Legitimate Rape?



## dbarabians

Rep. Aiken is so absurd as to believe that during a rape a womans body can prevent pregnancy on its own.
This is the problem when social conservative refuse to acknowledge facts in order to bolster thier positions on abortion and other social issues.
I also think he just lost a seat for the Republicans.
One they were indeed in contention for.
If this does not rally progressives and women to vote nothing will. Shalom


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

dbarabians said:


> Rep. Aiken is so absurd as to believe that during a rape a womans body can prevent pregnancy on its own.
> This is the problem when social conservative refuse to acknowledge facts in order to bolster thier positions on abortion and other social issues.
> I also think he just lost a seat for the Republicans.
> One they were indeed in contention for.
> If this does not rally progressives and women to vote nothing will. Shalom


Nothing worse than the sound of a mind slamming closed! This guy is a moron and if he wins the seat in spite of all his mumblings, then I really have to wonder about all us women and our willingness to let a neanderthal like this put us back 100 years. OY!


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## dbarabians

His claims have no basis in facts.
With the untold number of women who have been sexually assualted his statements are insensitve and cruel.
What is the definition of legitamate rape? How hard you struggle?
There is enough guilt and shame involved with this brutal act.
Rep. Aikens statement only adds to the turmoil women who are assualted feel.
Plus the Fact that he is on the House Sceince Committee.
Now that is absurd and intolerable. Shalom


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

dbarabians said:


> His claims have no basis in facts.
> With the untold number of women who have been sexually assualted his statements are insensitve and cruel.
> What is the definition of legitamate rape? How hard you struggle?
> There is enough guilt and shame involved with this brutal act.
> Rep. Aikens statement only adds to the turmoil women who are assualted feel.
> Plus the Fact that he is on the House Sceince Committee.
> Now that is absurd and intolerable. Shalom


You're preachin' to the choir, Bro'! :lol:

I've never heard of "legitimate" rape before.......sounds like a bit of an oxy moron. O wait, I already said he was a moron. He sounds like the type who used to say, and he probably still does, "She wasn't raped, she asked for it, look how she's dressed." Or where she was or how late at night it was or she was walking alone, etc etc. Methinks we need to run this guy out of town on a rail. Tar & Feathers sounds time appropriate to his stance too.


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## texasgal

He's an idiot, if he said that, and obviously doesn't speak for the majority of the conservatives.... or intelligent people in general .. imo


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## waresbear

Not American, but on our news this morning they were discussing this. Unbelievable! I did think it was funny when they quoted a tweet by Clay Akins - "The only thing a woman's body will block is this guy's bid for an elected position", I thought that was clever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Always did like Clay Akins!


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## kitten_Val

I've heard it on radio this morning. You can't fix stupid, you know. I'm quite appalled that someone that dumb can go that far though...


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## dbarabians

The big problem we ahve in the USA with our 2 political parties is that they have become so polarized that people like Rep Aiken can spout this rhetoric with a straight face.
The fringe on both sides of the aisle control far too much of our national debates about issues like this.
Just sent his opponent a little donation to combat his stupidity. Shalom


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## dbarabians

The national and state Democratic Party gave him money to help him win a run off in the primaries.
They thought he would be the easier to beat than the other Republicans.
Looks as if they were right. Shalom


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## Clayton Taffy

DB you will always jump at the chance to bad mouth any republican anywhere possible as you have demonstrated several times. Although this time it is probably warrented.

Yes, the guy is an idiot for saying that. But he is better than that self serving, single minded, what's in it for me woman he is running against.


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## kitten_Val

dbarabians said:


> The national and state Democratic Party gave him money to help him win a run off in the primaries.
> They thought he would be the easier to beat than the other Republicans.


:rofl:

Seriously though it's scary. I do remember the laws that some states tried to put in place (like you'll be criminally charged for miscarriage if you did something wrong (for example, fell off the stairs, or ate something)). Just no words!

Folks, I don't think the fact he's a republican matters really. There are stupid people among any party, embarrassing others.


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## SouthernTrails

Taffy Clayton said:


> DB you will always jump at the chance to bad mouth any republican anywhere possible as you have demonstrated several times. Although this time it is probably warrented.
> 
> Yes, the guy is an idiot for saying that. But he is better than that self serving, single minded, what's in it for me woman he is running against.


I agree, all Republican are Trash, glad I am an Independent (sarcasm off now) :lol: 

This Akin guy needs to go back to biology 101

Here is the interview 






Since no Liberals ever post any of their Rocket Scientists, this will have you rolling, caution do not have food or drink in your mouth when you watch this, you will make a mess :lol:






How about this one, she want the Government to run all the companies, calls for Socialism







.


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## dbarabians

Taffy clayton I can assure you that I am as harsh on democrats as republicans.
If you read my post I also said that both parties have allowed the fringe to much power.
I do not have to look for a reason to sound off on some of these social conservatives.
They make themselves look bad. Not I.
Rep Aiken ,and please note that I am not calling him a moron or any thing other than his name and titile, represents a portion of his party that will place ignorance over sceince.
He probably does not believe in the theory of evolution.
He must think the Flinestones was a documentary.
His statement was made during a discussion of abortion. He would deny a woman who was raped the option of terminating the pregnancy.
His statement implies that if a woman was impregnanted during rape she was not in fact raped. His words not mine.
You can't make this up. Shalom


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## Faceman

dbarabians said:


> The big problem we ahve in the USA with our 2 political parties is that they have become so polarized that people like Rep Aiken can spout this rhetoric with a straight face.
> The fringe on both sides of the aisle control far too much of our national debates about issues like this.
> Just sent his opponent a little donation to combat his stupidity. Shalom


I have to plead ignorance to the actual subject, as I haven't followed that story, but what does idiocy and ignorance have to do with one's political party? I could rattle off scores of idiocies displayed by various liberals, but I don't attribute their idiocies to being liberal - just to them being idiots...


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## wetrain17

"real rape". Perhaps he needs to experience an "only partially real" rape, so he knows that there is no such thing.


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## texasgal

I don't know how old this guy is, but some old timers have stuff they have believed since they were taught as kids and that is just the way it is. Wives tales, or whatever you wanna call it. It is ignorance in this day and age but I know lot's of people like that. Lots.

Stupid stuff from genetics (or not), to home remedies, to superstition, to just things that have been passed down from generation to generation.

We need these old close minded people out of leadership. Some things are just fact. One egg, and one sperm (no matter how or under what circumstances they "meet") can create a child. 

A child, I might add, that didn't ask for this and is completely innocent of whatever circumstance they were conceived under.. but that's for another discussion.


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## Faceman

texasgal said:


> I don't know how old this guy is, but some old timers have stuff they have believed since they were taught as kids and that is just the way it is. Wives tales, or whatever you wanna call it. It is ignorance in this day and age but I know lot's of people like that. Lots.
> 
> Stupid stuff from genetics (or not), to home remedies, to superstition, to just things that have been passed down from generation to generation.
> 
> We need these old close minded people out of leadership. Some things are just fact. One egg, and one sperm (no matter how or under what circumstances they "meet") can create a child.
> 
> A child, I might add, that didn't ask for this and is completely innocent of whatever circumstance they were conceived under.. but that's for another discussion.


Well, it doesn't have anything to do with being an "old timer" any more than it does with being a Republican. Heck, I'm both and I'm no idiot. Neither ignorance nor stupidity know party, gender, or age...

But you are correct - if they are old and closed minded they need to go...just as Obama is young and closed minded and needs to go...it's the closed minded that is the issue - not age...:wink:


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## DancingArabian

I may get bashed for this but I don't think men should weigh in on matters of rape and abortions post-rape. It's a female issue. They cannot experience it, don't fear it and can't empathize with it.

Now if women all got to decide things like policies regarding ED pills or treatment for male anatomy-oriented diseases, you know they'd be in a huff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## texasgal

Faceman .. lol. Only saying that some of those old wivestales are more prevalent in the older generation .. 

You know I love ya, man!


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## dbarabians

Dancingarabian I wholeheartedly agree that men should have no voice in the discussion about abortion.
That is a womens issue. They alone have the say about terminating a pregnancy.
Rape however affects our whole soceity and is a violent crime.
That is everyones issue.
Romney did express disapointment in the matter but suggested that Akin "correct his statement". WTH does that mean? 
I've been a therapist for a long time and tlak to people for a living. Never heard that one before though. Shalom


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## waresbear

Taffy Clayton said:


> DB you will always jump at the chance to bad mouth any republican anywhere possible as you have demonstrated several times. Although this time it is probably warrented.
> 
> Yes, the guy is an idiot for saying that. But he is better than that self serving, single minded, what's in it for me woman he is running against.


This is why America will fall even lower, these are the type of people who will lead your country right down the drain. Time for you Americans to hold a revolutions and demand your elected officials treat the citizens as heros instead of zeros, make them accountable to YOU not corporations & capitalism! Geez, grow some!


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## Faceman

dbarabians said:


> Dancingarabian I wholeheartedly agree that men should have no voice in the discussion about abortion.
> That is a womens issue. They alone have the say about terminating a pregnancy.
> Rape however affects our whole soceity and is a violent crime.
> That is everyones issue.
> Romney did express disapointment in the matter but suggested that Akin "correct his statement". WTH does that mean?
> I've been a therapist for a long time and tlak to people for a living. Never heard that one before though. Shalom


As to abortion, I fully agree. That is why as a conservative and someone that considers abortion murder, I still am pro-choice because my opinion of what is murder when it comes to a fetus is just that - an opinion, and I grant other people the right to have theirs.

As to rape, once again I agree fully. Rape is as much a concern of men as women. Furthermore, it is a crime against society - not just against women. And often these crimes, specifically the ones against children, take place in schools, sunday schools, extracurricular sports, and other venues which concern all of us - particularly parents...


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## strawberry paint

How did a twit like that get where he is with that kind of thinking???
It's absolutely disturbing!!!! 
If he thinks that this idea that we can prevent ourselves from getting pregnant....then there must be other twisted ideas that comes to his head as well and you can't run a country on some stupid twisted ideas that are totally absurd.
He should tell his absurd twisted views to the women in Congo, where the majority are raped and impregnated continually from the militia.

Sorry for my rant...I just can't believe that there is people actually this stupid out there and especially running in politics.


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## dbarabians

Warebear the people of the US may be bombastic , loud, and sometimes callous, we do however enjoy the most freedom of any country in the world. 
We did indeed hold a revolution to demand a government respect and honour its citizens... in 1776.
I do not agree with anything that Rep Aiken said but will defend his right to say it.
He will pay for this statement dearly. He already has. Shalom


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## AQHSam

I believe he flubbed his lines. Now before you flame me, I live in missouri and think he is an a$$ and should step down so someone with better brain tongue control can step in. 

But he is one man in a long list of politicians who have said completely stupid nonsense. 

Lets see. Who remembers the dork in the 80s who misquoted the united ***** education fund slogan and said a ***** mind is a terrible thing? Or something like that. Nearly caused a second riot in Detroit. 

Or Sarah Palin's claim to international savvy because she can SEE Russia from Alaska?

Or Dan Quayle saying he invented the Internet. That makes me giggle. 

I should create a website dedicated to stupid politician flubs. I bet it goes viral. He won't be around long. Can you imagine what his wife must be thinking. I am still cracking up.


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## waresbear

dbarabians said:


> Warebear the people of the US may be bombastic , loud, and sometimes callous, we do however enjoy the most freedom of any country in the world.
> We did indeed hold a revolution to demand a government respect and honour its citizens... in 1776.
> I do not agree with anything that Rep Aiken said but will defend his right to say it.
> He will pay for this statement dearly. He already has. Shalom


You are under the impression you have freedom, in reality, no you don't. Capitalism runs your country, the rest are merely pawns and others jumping on the gravytrain. Granted most don't start out that way, but in in the end, it's how it turns out. Your government is a world bully and I have seen it first hand how they ignore world trade court rulings if it doesn't go in their favor.


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## Missy May

I am w others above - this proves this man is an idiot, period. I have no party, so his party affiliation is of no matter to me. Many politicians are thought to be idiots, this one just so happened to open his mouth w/o the aid of a teleprompter and remove all doubt.


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## dbarabians

Waresbear I have lived in Israel, England, Holland, and Belgium.
None of those places afford its citizens the freedom that we enjoy in the USA. NONE I know this first hand.
The USA fuels the worlds economy and has for over a century.
Capitalism is not something to be ashamed of. We have more wealthy people than anywhere else in the world.
Several of our Presidents have risen from poverty to become the most powerful person in the world. No where else is that possible.
We are materialistic yet comapssionate
We have ensured peace in the world through diplomacy and a strong military. Without us Europe would still have wars every 10 or so years. History proves it.
It took the US entering both World Wars to end them.
IMO a Canadian should be very grateful. The older people that I met in England, Holland, and the rest of Europe certainly were. Shalom


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## waresbear

I should be grateful the American government thumbs it's nose at a world trade court when the ruling doesn't go in their favor? I think not, live in your dreamland and watch it sink.


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## dbarabians

Waresbear i don't even know what ruling you are so riled up about.
Or how it is supposed to end our country as we know it.
Nor do I really care.
If the World Court has no power to enforce its rulings then they are not worth the paper it is written on.
Your hopes for the demise of my country are pointless and argumentive.
This has nothing to do with Rep Aikens statement there fore it is not relative to this thread. Shalom


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## Skyseternalangel

DancingArabian said:


> I may get bashed for this but I don't think men should weigh in on matters of rape and abortions post-rape. It's a female issue. They cannot experience it, don't fear it and can't empathize with it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I disagree about rape matters. Females aren't the only ones that get raped. Many males of all ages do. 

But yeah abortion.. guys can't really comprehend that...


But wow.. I've heard some stupid statements. Real rape? HA! Obviously he's never been violated if he thinks only one form of "rape" is "real"

:-|


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## kitten_Val

Folks, lets not turn the discussion into political debates, please.

As for the rape on many occasions it's a woman who provokes it or at least let it go so far it can't be stopped. As for abortions I agree with DA - I don't think men should have a say on this particular subject (BTW, I'm against abortion after the certain timeline (say, 5 or 6 months) unless it's a must to save a mother).


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## Faceman

dbarabians said:


> Waresbear i don't even know what ruling you are so riled up about.
> Or how it is supposed to end our country as we know it.
> Nor do I really care.
> If the World Court has no power to enforce its rulings then they are not worth the paper it is written on.
> Your hopes for the demise of my country are pointless and argumentive.
> This has nothing to do with Rep Aikens statement there fore it is not relative to this thread. Shalom


Yeah, I am clueless too as to what she is referring to, unless it was the dolphin/tuna issue involving the US and Mexico earlier this year.

The World Trade Court has no jurisdiction anyway. The only enforcement "power" they have is fines, but there is no legal jurisdiction to force payment.

I could call myself the World Political Oracle and chastise and fine those that don't subscribe to my conservative political dictates. Perhaps that is a good idea - db, I hereby fine you $500 for your liberal insanity, and add $1,000 for the pain and suffering you have caused me. Kindly make your check out to Faceman, and forward to Face the Oracle, PO Box #1, Branson, Mo...the pleasure of endorsing YOUR check over to the Romney campaign will do wonders for alleviating the pain you have inflicted...:rofl:

Back on topic, Aikins has his apology ad out today. He is probably also updating his resume...


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## JustDressageIt

kitten_Val said:


> As for the rape on many occasions it's a woman who provokes it or at least let it go so far it can't be stopped. .


Um. Please tell me I read this statement wrong... What I read here is that women "ask" for it, or don't stop it?!
If I read incorrectly, please do correct me. I'd love to be wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kitten_Val

Faceman said:


> Back on topic, Aikins has his apology ad out today. He is probably also updating his resume...


2 rep senators asked him to step off. He said it's not in plans though. Wanna bet he'll stay?


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## kitten_Val

JustDressageIt said:


> Um. Please tell me I read this statement wrong... What I read here is that women "ask" for it, or don't stop it?!
> If I read incorrectly, please do correct me. I'd love to be wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When you have a very short skirt or open upper-wear and go to the pub, get drunk, and flirt with someone, or simply go to the bad district (where you don't belong and don't have a need to be) after certain hour, yes you ASK for it. Does it make it any better or the guy(s) less guilty? NO. The raper(s) must be punished, and punished hard. But in many situations the rape could of be avoided in 1st place. Simply by NOT going where you shouldn't. And if you did (knowing possible consequences) it's called "asking troubles on your own a*s". 

As for don't stop, I know several situations when women kept flirting till the moment it should happen, and then tried to back off. Guess what? Not every man backs off. Again, is he guilty? Yes. But is the woman guilty? IMHO yes as well. Even though she screams a "rape" and runs to police after the act.

Of course there are plenty of situations when it's neither a stupid decision nor provocation, but a real rape.


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## JustDressageIt

kitten_Val said:


> When you have a very short skirt or open upper-wear and go to the pub, get drunk, and flirt with someone, or simply go to the bad district (where you don't belong and don't have a need to be) after certain hour, yes you ASK for it. Does it make it any better or the guy(s) less guilty? NO. The raper(s) must be punished, and punished hard. But in many situations the rape could of be avoided in 1st place. Simply by NOT going where you shouldn't. And if you did (knowing possible consequences) it's called "asking troubles on your own a*s".
> 
> As for don't stop, I know several situations when women kept flirting till the moment it should happen, and then tried to back off. Guess what? Not every man backs off. Again, is he guilty? Yes. But is the woman guilty? IMHO yes as well. Even though she screams a "rape" and runs to police after the act.
> 
> Of course there are plenty of situations when it's neither a stupid decision nor provocation, but a real rape.


I STRONGLY disagree and actually think that this line of thinking is why many rape victims STILL do not come forwards because of this backwards, judgmental thinking. 
So if I wear a skirt and happen to go out for a night on the town and get raped... I'm asking for it?! 
As for the second scenario - um, WHAT?! No. No means no. I don't care if a girl has flirted shamelessly and been "with it" until they're about to go at it - if she says no, hell, if HE says no even if they're moments away from copulating, no means effing no. If the other party still forces sex on the party that said "no," then it's rape.

I'm surprised, KV, and honestly as disgusted with your statement as I am with Akin's. It's just as backwards thinking as his statement.

Actually - I re-read your last line. "Real rape?!" 
Yikes. Yes, as bad as Akin. 

Yes, I am VERY opinionated about this subject. I cannot believe that in today's day and age things like the above are being said. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kitten_Val

JustDressageIt said:


> So if I wear a skirt and happen to go out for a night on the town and get raped... I'm asking for it?!
> As for the second scenario - um, WHAT?! No. No means no. I don't care if a girl has flirted shamelessly and been "with it" until they're about to go at it - if she says no, hell, if HE says no even if they're moments away from copulating, no means effing no. If the other party still forces sex on the party that said "no," then it's rape.


I don't remember I said the person is not guilty or that it's NOT a rape. But the reality of life is if you go to the bad district there is a good chance you'll be raped. Or robbed. Or even killed. And if you know that and still do it then it's your choice in the end. You can be as offended as you want, but it is what it is. Would I feel horrible for such woman? Absolutely, and I think the rapers (any rapers) should get a long rest in jail. But again, it could of be avoided. Same with getting almost to the last step (not just flirting), and then backing off. The fact I want to do something doesn't mean I have to do something. Especially when the safety comes in play.


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## MN Tigerstripes

JustDressageIt said:


> I STRONGLY disagree and actually think that this line of thinking is why many rape victims STILL do not come forwards because of this backwards, judgmental thinking.
> So if I wear a skirt and happen to go out for a night on the town and get raped... I'm asking for it?!
> As for the second scenario - um, WHAT?! No. No means no. I don't care if a girl has flirted shamelessly and been "with it" until they're about to go at it - if she says no, hell, if HE says no even if they're moments away from copulating, no means effing no. If the other party still forces sex on the party that said "no," then it's rape.
> 
> I'm surprised, KV, and honestly as disgusted with your statement as I am with Akin's. It's just as backwards thinking as his statement.
> 
> Actually - I re-read your last line. "Real rape?!"
> Yikes. Yes, as bad as Akin.
> 
> Yes, I am VERY opinionated about this subject. I cannot believe that in today's day and age things like the above are being said.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can't say it any better than this in any sort of civil manner. The sentiment that the person raped somehow ASKED to be violated in such a manner disgusts me to no end. This is exactly the mentality that allows rape to continue in a society.


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## kitten_Val

MN Tigerstripes said:


> The sentiment that the person raped somehow ASKED to be violated in such a manner disgusts me to no end. This is exactly the mentality that allows rape to continue in a society.


Unless you get rid of all bad districts (or put a police on each XS there) it will continue. Mentality or anything else has nothing to do with it. And yes, I have no problem to advice NOT to go to such districts to girls I know and explain possible outcomes. Unfortunately when you go there you are considered as a target (and in fact it's true for the guys as well, not just females).


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## JustDressageIt

MNT, I'm shaking I'm so mad. 
People never ask to be raped. I don't care if they're an effing hooker - if they say no or refuse, is it then not rape because they were "asking" for it?
Disgusting. 
KV, it's still murder if you get shot and killed in a bad neighborhood - would a person ever say "oh haha they were in X area, of course they were asking for it"??

I'm livid. I'm disgusted that this type of thinking is apparently rampant out there. KV, I would encourage you to go talk with some rape victims - men and women alike - and gain some insight. 

This isn't about me being "offended" or "butthurt" - this is an issue very near and dear to me and I'm disgusted that there are still people that think so backwards. 

Akin isn't alone in his backwards, disgusting thinking, even on this board, sadly. .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MN Tigerstripes

Attitudes like yours encourages the behavior and mentality that the victim is somehow responsible for the criminal's behavior does encourage the behavior to continue because the crime is not punished effectively. Women don't come forward because of attitudes like yours so rapists get away with it and continue with their crimes. It's not just dirtbags in "scary" places that commit rapes. 

I know a girl that got drunk and was gang raped. She was a college freshman, a virgin, and woke up surrounded by used condoms. Obviously she is to blame for a bunch of rapists taking advantage of a drunk girl. She shouldn't have trusted her friends, right? 

Who decides what skirt is too short or how much cleavage is too much before a woman "asks" for it? Who decides what environment is acceptable for a woman to be in alone before she "asked" for it? The victim is not responsible for the crime. Maybe they were stupid, maybe not, but stupidity isn't a crime nor is it "asking" to be violated in such a manner.

ETA - Me too JDI


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## NdAppy

All I have to say is I have tried a couple of times to type up a response that is acceptable on this forum in response to KV and I can't. 

I'm sorry but that sort of thinking is just disgusting and wrong.


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## texasgal

I'm hoping like heck that KV is playing devil's advocate here .. 

Unbelievable.


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## Whisper22

Rape in any way, shape, or form is NOT ok. BUT, to say that it is not sometimes provoked and absolutely no blame rests on the girl being raped, IMHO is a little ignorant. 

If a guy walks up to another guy, sticking his finger in his face, shoving him, and calling him names, and then low and behold gets his a** beat, would you really not hold that guy responsible, in some way for what he brought on himself?

Some girls LOVE the attention that dressing trashy brings them, they invited that attention into their life. They SHOULD be held responsible for that. That is not to say the rapist SHOULDN'T be punished.

This OBVIOUSLY is not the case with children, and of course there are woman who do not provoke it. I think what KV was trying to say was taken completely out of context.


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## spookychick13

No means NO.

That's that.

The way you dress, where you are, etc has NOTHING to do with it.


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## JustDressageIt

Nope. I still say that you can be dressed in a bikini or like a nun and neither should be construed as "asking for it." the term "asking for it" or "provoked it" make my stomach turn. 
What, a guy can't help himself if a girl is scantily dressed???
Give me a break. I don't care if a girl is dressed in a micro mini and a bra, she is not "asking" to be raped. I may look at her funny, but NEVER will I think "oh if she gets raped, well, she was asking for it."
Good lord. 
And I don't care if a guy has his thing out and the woman is into it until the last second. No is no is no!!!!! I don't care who says no - the guy or the girl - no is no. Don't care what happened before that moment - no is no! 

Have I said it enough yet?!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MN Tigerstripes

Please tell me you're joking. That a woman who dresses "trashy" needs to be held responsible for her being violated by a CRIMINAL? Again, Whisper I ask you, for one thing who decides what is trashy?? Who gets to draw the line about which victims get to be punished for their supposed crimes and which don't?

There is a huge difference between a man picking a fight and a woman dressing in a manner that makes her feel attractive and getting raped by some dirtbag who cannot control himself or respect another person's boundaries.


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## texasgal

A woman that is dressed "trashy" can walk around and flirt with guys for days, weeks, months and never be raped. Hundreds of guys.

Then she is raped. What is the different this time? What is the difference between the hundreds of guys who saw her and didn't rape her and the one that did?

Morals ... and the ability to control himself and not act like some wild animal that can't. 

The fault lies with the "faulty" guy.

Really, people, we all make poor choices from time to time, doesn't mean we are asking to be violated in some way.

Quit blaming the victim .. it's beneath you as a fellow human.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Taffy Clayton said:


> DB you will always jump at the chance to bad mouth any republican anywhere possible as you have demonstrated several times. Although this time it is probably warrented.
> 
> Yes, the guy is an idiot for saying that. But he is better than that self serving, single minded, what's in it for me woman he is running against.


If he's better than anything else that's running, I'm glad I don't live in MO! No offense to the state, it's gorgeous but OHMILOWERED!


----------



## NdAppy

IMO if you feel that a person "deserved to be raped" due the way they were dressing makes you just as guilty as that rapist...


----------



## JustDressageIt

I'm glad I'm not the only one outraged here hah. 
I'm positive that almost all of us are wearing "****ty" clothes by extremely conservative countries where showing any skin (eyes only!) is considered abhorrent. Am I asking for it if I'm wearing capris and a tank top, then? 
I'm sure I dressed a little more ... Umm... Scantily when I was going to university and out on the town with my girl friends - was I "asking" for it then? By dressing a bit showier and drinking? 
No. 
Good lord.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Whisper22

MN Tigerstripes said:


> There is a huge difference between a man picking a fight and a woman dressing in a manner that makes her feel attractive and getting raped by some dirtbag who cannot control himself or respect another person's boundaries.


I see no difference in a man acting a certain way because it makes him feel tough and a woman acting and dressing a certain way because it makes her feel attractive. There are always consequences to your actions. The mentality that you have no control over what happens to you and/or do not have to take responsibility for your actions is a serious problem I see with society and is definitely a part I see as being detrimental to my children.


----------



## Whisper22

ndappy said:


> imo if you feel that a person "deserved to be raped" due the way they were dressing makes you just as guilty as that rapist...


never did i ever say someone deserves to be raped. Do not twist my words.


----------



## NdAppy

Whisper do you even know or been around someone who has been raped? Seen the emotional after effects of such an event?


----------



## texasgal

"The mentality that you have *no control* over what happens to you and/or do not have to *take responsibility* for your actions is a serious problem I see with society and is definitely a part I see as being detrimental to my children. "

I agree with this, Whisper. The PERPETRATOR needs to take responsibility for HIS actions and quit whining that he had "no control" over himself.. or that he finds himself now in jail.

And as to your other scenerio.. No, I don't think you have the right to assault someone because they are wagging their finger in your face. Show some control and walk away. Period.


----------



## NdAppy

Both you and KV have implied that women and girls who dress in certain ways deserve what is coming to them. I suggest you read what you wrote and see it from another perspective.


----------



## Whisper22

I am not a fan of drinking or dressing scantily so IMO yes. If you want to act that way, then bad things might happen to you. Thats part of being responsible and growing up.


----------



## spookychick13

So, strippers and pole dancers deserve to be raped?


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

These attitudes that a victim brought their rape on themselves makes me glad I live in a soon to be open carry state. A woman (or man) should be able to walk down Main St. NEKKID at 3 a.m. and have no fear of rape. NO IS NO IS NO. For those who feel differently, perhaps a move to a lovely small town in Saudi would be more to your liking? 

REALLY! I totally can't believe what I just read. I'm nauseated.


----------



## NdAppy

Whisper22 said:


> I am not a fan of drinking or dressing scantily so IMO yes. If you want to act that way, then bad things might happen to you. Thats part of being responsible and growing up.


And that right there implies that if a girl gets raped she deserved it...


----------



## Whisper22

NdAppy said:


> Whisper do you even know or been around someone who has been raped? Seen the emotional after effects of such an event?


Yes



texasgal said:


> "The mentality that you have *no control* over what happens to you and/or do not have to *take responsibility* for your actions is a serious problem I see with society and is definitely a part I see as being detrimental to my children. "
> 
> I agree with this, Whisper. The PERPETRATOR needs to take responsibility for HIS actions and quit whining that he had "no control" over himself.. or that he finds himself now in jail.
> 
> And as to your other scenerio.. No, I don't think you have the right to assault someone because they are wagging their finger in your face. Show some control and walk away. Period.


I never said the rapist didn't need to be held responsible, the opposite actually. 



NdAppy said:


> Both you and KV have implied that women and girls who dress in certain ways deserve what is coming to them. I suggest you read what you wrote and see it from another perspective.


If you choose to be so ignorant as to actually believe I'm saying they deserve to be raped, then talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.


----------



## texasgal

**


> I am not a fan of *people who rape people* so IMO yes. If you want to act that way, then bad things might happen to you. That's part of being responsible and growing up.


**

There. I fixed it for you.


----------



## MN Tigerstripes

Have you ever known anyone who has been raped Whisper?

Do you truly understand what a terrible violation it is? It's a theft of self and of lifelong safety. You are violated in the most personal way possible and there is no way to forget what happened to you. It's as bad (worse in some ways) as killing someone... To say that ANYONE deserves to be hurt in such a manner is utterly inhuman IMO and shows a disgusting lack of compassion for fellow human beings.


----------



## spookychick13

Whisper22 said:


> I am not a fan of drinking or dressing scantily so IMO yes. If you want to act that way, then bad things might happen to you. Thats part of being responsible and growing up.


So what exactly does this mean, then, whisper????


----------



## clippityclop

And what about that rape a few years ago where the victim was overpowered and couldn't get away so the only choice she had was to ask if the rapist please at least wear a condom? The guy got minimum time because the courts deemed it was somewhat consensual.....and he had tested positive for HIV.

how can there be an inbetween or a 'somewhat' consensual rape?


----------



## JustDressageIt

Good to know I (as a very dedicated university student) would have been asking to be raped by dressing a bit scantily and (heaven forbid) having a drink. 

Thank you for your support. It means the world to me. 

Disgusting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Whisper22

texasgal said:


> ****
> 
> There. I fixed it for you.


All you've done is join the ignorance club.

I feel sorry for your daughters that you have or may have. To be taught that way of thinking is most likely what will get them raped. But of course they will be told they did absolutely nothing wrong, just so they can go on behaving in the same mannor only to be raped again.

Whatever floats your boat.


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## NdAppy

And you are a disgustingly ignorant person to even say that...


----------



## texasgal

Whisper .... Be very very careful what you say about my daughters. We are a very conservative family and my daughters, by choice, won't even wear two piece bathing suits.

I don't practice what I'm defending, *but I'll defend to the end a woman's right to say no..*

You are completely out of line here.

Totally and completely ...


----------



## MN Tigerstripes

You are a *disgusting* example of a human being Whisper. I don't give a **** if I get banned for this, I don't think I've ever been in any sort of trouble on this forum, but there is something terribly terribly wrong with you.


----------



## Whisper22

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Have you ever known anyone who has been raped Whisper?
> 
> Do you truly understand what a terrible violation it is? It's a theft of self and of lifelong safety. You are violated in the most personal way possible and there is no way to forget what happened to you. It's as bad (worse in some ways) as killing someone... To say that ANYONE deserves to be hurt in such a manner is utterly inhuman IMO and shows a disgusting lack of compassion for fellow human beings.


I agree completely and never did I say they deserve it.


----------



## texasgal

^^ you said exactly that.


----------



## Whisper22

You people need to get a grip...on life.


----------



## MN Tigerstripes

How can you agree with what I said and still say everything that you said? I suggest you truly read what you wrote and read what I wrote and then sit down and THINK about it.


----------



## spookychick13

Slinging insults to cover your implications. Nice.


----------



## MN Tigerstripes

*WE* need to get a grip on life?? I suggest you take a long hard look in the mirror Whisper.


----------



## kitten_Val

JustDressageIt said:


> KV, it's still murder if you get shot and killed in a bad neighborhood - would a person ever say "oh haha they were in X area, of course they were asking for it"??


I don't think ANYONE would laugh about raping, shooting, or any other offense. Or saying "they got what they asked for". If it happens to someone - it IS a tragedy, and it doesn't matter already why the person was there. 

However if you decide to go to the bad area just to have fun that's what can happen. And sorry, but I call it being dumb if you know and still risk _just because_ you want it (I'm not talking about situations when you have no choice). I lived in such area when I was a student, so I know exactly what I'm talking about: going out on your own after dark was asking for troubles for yourself. You were a sexual target right away with people making you offers next to the building (BTW, didn't matter if you had a skirt up to your heels or shorts and bra). Was it OK? No, it's plain wrong. But with no police in area and when noone cares what's happening to you the only solution was not to look for troubles. 

So are you, ladies, saying the single female should have a courage and "right" mentality and just go out on street in such area just to prove that raping is wrong? Really? I'd rather have a "wrong" mentality and tell all my female friends straight NOT to do it, because they can provoke those guys (who don't care about what's right and wrong). 

JDI, I do know rape victims... Some had it happened because they decided to test a fortune. And they blamed it on selves keep asking themselves (and others) why they decided to do what they did. Very, very sad.


----------



## Whisper22

spookychick13 said:


> Slinging insults to cover your implications. Nice.


Are you seriously accusing ME of slinging insults? Wow.


----------



## HorseMom1025

No one ASKS to be raped. Period. A person should have the right to dress however they please with the expectation that people will behave decently. A stallion might not be able to resist mounting a mare in heat...a human male should be able to control himself better.

By one person's argument, If I go to a nude beach where nudity is expected and allowed, and fall asleep, I shouldn't be surprised if I wake up with some man on top of me. After all, I "asked" for it. It doesn't matter that my manner of dress (or lack thereof) is perfectly legal...I shouldn't have the expectation that a male can control his urges enough not to violate me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Whisper22

HorseMom1025 said:


> No one ASKS to be raped. Period. A person should have the right to dress however they please with the expectation that people will behave decently. A stallion might not be able to resist mounting a mare in heat...a human male should be able to control himself better.
> 
> By one person's argument, If I go to a nude beach where nudity is expected and allowed, and fall asleep, I shouldn't be surprised if I wake up with some man on top of me. After all, I "asked" for it. It doesn't matter that my manner of dress (or lack thereof) is perfectly legal...I shouldn't have the expectation that a male can control his urges enough not to violate me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It would be nice if we could expect all people to act decently, but that is not the world we live in. We know there are predators out there regardless of our rights.

For all the members that bash others for wanting the world to be made of rainbows and marshmellows, this thread is chock full of them.


----------



## kitten_Val

NdAppy said:


> IMO if you feel that a person "deserved to be raped" due the way they were dressing makes you just as guilty as that rapist...


I don't understand where "dressing" even came into conversation. You can be dressed in long dress and STILL be raped coming in bad district. Or flirting with the guy you just met, going to his apartment, and letting him take that dress off. It's all about what you do and where you go, NOT about dress (or even appearance). 

There is a big difference if you came to the bar, the guy slipped something into your glass and then took you with him and raped. When you came to the bar looking for the guy, got drunk, voluntarily went with him to his place, let it go far, and then suddenly decided you are not in mood anymore, you tried everything you could to have the rape happened. And it happens all the time. Would it excuse the guy? No. But if you think what you did is right, it's plain wrong.


----------



## spookychick13

How is expecting to dress a certain way without being RAPED wanting the world to be made of rainbows and marshmallows???

I am a goth/punk, I dress a certain way because it makes me happy. Does that mean I am inviting "bad things to happen"???? No. I simply like the way I look.
The end.


----------



## MN Tigerstripes

kitten_Val said:


> When you have a very short skirt or open upper-wear and go to the pub, get drunk, and flirt with someone, or simply go to the bad district (where you don't belong and don't have a need to be) after certain hour, yes you ASK for it. Does it make it any better or the guy(s) less guilty? NO. The raper(s) must be punished, and punished hard. But in many situations the rape could of be avoided in 1st place. Simply by NOT going where you shouldn't. And if you did (knowing possible consequences) it's called "asking troubles on your own a*s".
> 
> As for don't stop, I know several situations when women kept flirting till the moment it should happen, and then tried to back off. Guess what? Not every man backs off. Again, is he guilty? Yes. But is the woman guilty? IMHO yes as well. Even though she screams a "rape" and runs to police after the act.
> 
> Of course there are plenty of situations when it's neither a stupid decision nor provocation, but a real rape.


KV you were the one who brought up dressing and what it has to do with rape..


----------



## Whisper22

spookychick13 said:


> How is expecting to dress a certain way without being RAPED wanting the world to be made of rainbows and marshmallows???
> 
> I am a goth/punk, I dress a certain way because it makes me happy. Does that mean I am inviting "bad things to happen"???? No. I simply like the way I look.
> The end.


I was referring more to woman who dress to go to bars and clubs and drink and flirt with men, I would guess how those situations would get started. You can do whatever the hell you want, but are you really going to be shocked when you attract the wrong kind of attention? Well I guess the people on this forum might.


----------



## texasgal

Nobody is talking rainbows and marshmellows. 

We are talking about rape. An act of assaulting another human being.

And if that's not bad enough, the re-victimization by people saying the victim somehow deserved it.

Of course women blame themselves, just like they do when a spouse is caught cheating, or their child gets abducted ... and partly because ingornance has taught them that they could have done more, should have done more.

Rape can happen in the comfort of your own home, at a Dr.s Office, or out in the hood while you are buying drugs. It's so easy to look down your nose at the people that according to your standards "deserved it".. because you can feel sooo much superior.

The one to blame is the rapist. Whether it's in your house, or on the bad side of town. Whether it's an elderly woman who can't afford to live anywhere else, a young lady out partying, or a child in daycare.

It's the rapist that is to blame.

(I can't even believe I have to explain this ..)

Wow.


----------



## kitten_Val

NdAppy said:


> Both you and KV have implied that women and girls who dress in certain ways *deserve *what is coming to them. I suggest you read what you wrote and see it from another perspective.


Nope, not what I said (or at least please show me where exactly I said so). All I was saying you can trigger the rape just because you did something unsafe. 

Yes, in ideal world everyone should be able to go naked in mid of the night wherever they want. But we are NOT in ideal world, so why to get into troubles?


----------



## Whisper22

texasgal said:


> Nobody is talking rainbows and marshmellows.
> 
> We are talking about rape. An act of assaulting another human being.
> 
> And if that's not bad enough, the re-victimization by people saying the victim somehow deserved it.
> 
> Of course women blame themselves, just like they do when a spouse is caught cheating, or their child gets abducted ... and partly because ingornance has taught them that the could have done more, should have done more.
> 
> Rape can happen in the comfort of your own home, at a Dr.s Office, or out in the hood while you are buying drugs. It's so easy to look down your nose at the people that according to your standards "deserved it".. because you can feel sooo much superior.
> 
> The one to blame is the rapist. Whether it's in your house, or on the bad side of town. Whether it's an elderly woman who can't afford to live anywhere else, a young lady out partying, or a child in daycare.
> 
> It's the rapist that is to blame.
> 
> (I can't even believe I have to explain this ..)
> 
> Wow.


Chill out lady. I said a long time ago that obviously not all rape cases happen in the way that got everyone so worked up. Is every victim innocent? Yes because it is NEVER ok. But IMO there are victims more innocent than others. I don't give a frick if anyone agrees with me.


----------



## NdAppy

KV look up at the post MN tigerstripes quoted of yours. You say it right there...


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## kitten_Val

MN Tigerstripes said:


> KV you were the one who brought up dressing and what it has to do with rape..


Yes, because dressing certain ways when you go to some pubs means you want to draw attention or look for the guy (which is normal if you are serious about it). In no way I said it's "trashy" or "ugly" or anything else (and if so, please, quote).


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## NdAppy

no one can be "more innocent" than another. Its one of those things that you are or you aren't. Same thing with guilty. You either are or aren't...


----------



## HorseMom1025

I think I (and others) are objecting to the thought that ANY person deserves or asks to be raped.

Do I think there are situations where a person's chances of being raped are drastically increased. Yes. But the fact if a person is out to rape another person, regardless of whether it's a crime of opportunity (a girl passed out at a frat party) or a locational crime (walking thru a bad part of town where crimes of this nature are higher), the bottom line is no one asks or deserves to be raped.

Sure, we can decrease our chances by avoiding high risk scenarios. But, if some random person decides he wants to have sex with me regardless of my wishes...he made the decision to rape me. Nothing I say or do would change that. That person has chosen to commit the crime. The VICTIM never deserves it.

ETA: No I don't think we live in a world full of marshmallows and rainbows, and I do think we have some personal reponsibility to avoid dangerous situations. However, I still DO NOT believe that a victim of rape EVER deserves it or asks for it. The ONLY one responsible is the rapist. Period.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TaMMa89

*MODERATOR'S NOTE:

The Horseforum.com is place for constructive discussions and critique. Disagreeing is welcome, debating and discussing over topics are welcome but personal insults aren't welcome. Insulting parts will be removed and overly insulting participants will face sanctions if needed. We thank you for coopertaing and keeping the discussion civil. 

This note isn't aimed at any particular participant but serves just as a general reminder.

The Horseforum.com Team*


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## Whisper22

HorseMom1025 said:


> ETA: No I don't think we live in a world full of marshmallows and rainbows, and I do think we have some personal reponsibility to avoid dangerous situations. However, I still DO NOT believe that a victim of rape EVER deserves it or asks for it. The ONLY one responsible is the rapist. Period.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's great because no one else here said they did either.


----------



## kitten_Val

NdAppy said:


> no one can be "more innocent" than another. Its one of those things that you are or you aren't. Same thing with guilty. You either are or aren't...


The raper is 100% guilty. And I want to see if someone on thread said differently. However again, rape may NOT happen in certain situations if you wouldn't take certain action that caused it. OK you decided to go to the bad area, got raped, the guy is arrested and in jail. Does it make it _any easier_ on a victim? I bet you not.


----------



## JustDressageIt

Good lord. 
I'm going to step back from this thread before I say something (more) that I regret. 
Whisper22 and KV, I'm really really shocked and disgusted by what you have said here. Disgusted, too. I cannot believe some of the things said and insinuated here. I hope beyond all hope that a victim still struggling with the wounds (mental and physical) of her rape does not find this thread. 
My stomach is doing flip flops. I feel sickened by what has been said here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kitten_Val

HorseMom1025 said:


> But, if some random person decides he wants to have sex with me regardless of my wishes...he made the decision to rape me. Nothing I say or do would change that. That person has chosen to commit the crime. The VICTIM never deserves it.


HM, that's different. Anyone can be raped. I can be raped. You never know when and how it may happen. But "reducing the risks" is very VERY important. The "I can go anywhere because I want to" doesn't work, at least not in US.


----------



## Whisper22

JustDressageIt said:


> Good lord.
> I'm going to step back from this thread before I say something (more) that I regret.
> Whisper22 and KV, I'm really really shocked and disgusted by what you have said here. Disgusted, too. I cannot believe some of the things said and insinuated here. I hope beyond all hope that a victim still struggling with the wounds (mental and physical) of her rape does not find this thread.
> My stomach is doing flip flops. I feel sickened by what has been said here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have two daughters of my own, they are the most important thing in my life, and I do not regret a single thing I have said here.


----------



## texasgal

I hope you don't live to regret some things you said here...


----------



## Whisper22

texasgal said:


> I hope you don't live to regret some things you said here...


No, not at all, why would I?


----------



## PaintHorseMares

Not to dredge up the past (too much), but having lived in TX for 11 years, I remember when Clayton Williams was running for governor (against Ann Richards) jokingly (I think) likening rape to bad weather, "If it's inevitable, just relax and enjoy it".
I guess the "Good old boy" mentality is still alive and well.
Rape is never 'OK', and I would be perfectly comfortable letting women decide what the punishment should be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MN Tigerstripes

kitten_Val said:


> The raper is 100% guilty. And I want to see if someone on thread said differently. However again, rape may NOT happen in certain situations if you wouldn't take certain action that caused it. OK you decided to go to the bad area, got raped, the guy is arrested and in jail. Does it make it _any easier_ on a victim? I bet you not.


I bet it does make it a little easier on the victim knowing that the person who violated her is put away and is going to be punished. 

In my opinion and experience with men the type of man who is going to rape a woman doesn't really give a crap where they are or what the woman is wearing or whether she is sober or drunk. It's not about sex. It's about power.


----------



## Golden Horse

I came i read, I am impaired by drugs and recovering from surgery, so I can't evevn begin to express my diddapointment at the viws expressed by KV and Whisper, I rally must come back and read again and see if I am misunderstangimn wahat has been said


----------



## Faceman

Aaack - what a debate...:shock:

Here is my play on it.

A girl/woman that dresses and acts very provocatively is drawing attention - purposely - to herself in a sexual way. She is inviting admiration, advances, and stimulating sexual thoughts by the men who see her. She obviously finds that satisfying or she wouldn't be doing it in the first place. I think anyone that questions that is being unrealistic to everyone else and most importantly to themselves. And yes, in certain circumstances, that can be construed as "asking for trouble".

But "asking for trouble" is not the same as "asking to be raped". Most authorities agree that rape is an act of violence - not an act of sex. Rape, at least forcible rape, really is not connected directly to sex or how a girl/woman dresses or acts.

Because it is an act of violence, there is NEVER justification for forcible rape, and it has nothing to do with the woman.

However, it is still not prudent for women, and most certainly young girls, to run around looking like hookers. There are two issues here, and while they may not be inviting rape, they are certainly inviting immoral behavior and advances from not only those they seek to attract but from the scum and dangerous element as well...


----------



## Sahara

KV and Whisper: I wonder what you would say if one of your daughters, against her better judgement, went to the wrong bar in the "bad" part of town and got gang raped. How much of that experience would be her fault? Or if she had too many beers one night in college and sent mixed signals to some guy who decided she really wanted it? How much blame would they have to absorb for choosing to drink beer and being in the wrong place at the wrong time? 

Changes your perspective a little when you put your flesh and blood in the scenario, doesn't it?


----------



## Whisper22

MN Tigerstripes said:


> I bet it does make it a little easier on the victim knowing that the person who violated her is put away and is going to be punished.
> 
> In my opinion and experience with men the type of man who is going to rape a woman doesn't really give a crap where they are or what the woman is wearing or whether she is sober or drunk. It's not about sex. It's about power.


Well, you can disagree if you want, that a predator will most likely choose the woman dressed more scantily, drinking and stumbling over herself, over a woman who is...well not. Common sense IMO.


----------



## kitten_Val

MN Tigerstripes said:


> In my opinion and experience with men the type of man who is going to rape a woman doesn't really give a crap where they are or what the woman is wearing or whether she is sober or drunk. It's not about sex. It's about power.


I agree for the most part. But you have very slim chance of being raped in my town (I think I probably would be able to go naked at 3 am and nothing will happen). And if someone wants to rape me in mid of the day there will be bunch of people kicking his butt and calling police. However if you go to some area in DC you can get someone trying to get into your apartment to rape in mid of the day (speaking from my personal experience here, unfortunately), and noone give a sh*t, because it's a "norm".


----------



## HorseMom1025

I'm a rape survivor. Many would say it wasn't "legitimate" rape.

I was only 15 and a virgin at the time. I was dating a 17 year old boy that spent months tearing down my self esteem. He informed me that we would be having sex. I told him that I wasn't ready to go all the way. He didn't care. The fact that I was ok with heavy petting, the fact that he paid for our dates meant that he deserved sex as repayment.

One night he pulls over in a deserted area and gets me into the backseat of his car. I thought we would just be doing our normal make out session. Imagine my surprise when he whips out a condom, pulls off my panties and tells me "Tonight's the big night". I struggled but didn't say that magic word "No". He held me down and said, "You know you want this. You've been teasing me for months."

It happened two more times before I got the courage to break up with him. He then spread tales to everyone in high school about what a **** I was and how much I begged him for it. Suddenly I was so popular with the guys who were all hoping for a repeat performance. If I did go on a date, they expected me to put out. If I refused, they told everyone that I did any way. My last two years of high school were hell. No, I never told anyone (except my husband...much, much later) that I was raped. Why? Because attitudes like the ones displayed in this thread made me believe that I derserved it. I asked for it. That I must have signaled yes when I thought I had said no. I know better now. I was lucky enough to have a few very good friends who never believed the rumors and stayed by my side.

All you people who have never been violated, have never had your trust betrayed by someone you thought you loved have NO IDEA what it feels like when your life is shattered like that. I hope you and yours NEVER do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Whisper22

Sahara said:


> KV and Whisper: I wonder what you would say if one of your daughters, against her better judgement, went to the wrong bar in the "bad" part of town and got gang raped. How much of that experience would be her fault? Or if she had too many beers one night in college and sent mixed signals to some guy who decided she really wanted it? How much blame would they have to absorb for choosing to drink beer and being in the wrong place at the wrong time?
> 
> Changes your perspective a little when you put your flesh and blood in the scenario, doesn't it?


No, it doesn't change my perspective at all. I have this perspective for the protection of my daughters. But if by chance something fails, I would be there for her in every way, but you better **** well believe that when the dust settles, I will be asking her what SHE could have done differently to make sure it never happens again. To send her back out, to act the exact same way she was before, IMO would be bad parenting.


----------



## Sahara

I am going to go throw up now. You are nauseating.


----------



## HorseMom1025

Whisper22 said:


> No, it doesn't change my perspective at all. I have this perspective for the protection of my daughters. But if by chance something fails, I would be there for her in every way, but you better **** well believe that when the dust settles, I will be asking her what SHE could have done differently to make sure it never happens again. To send her back out, to act the exact same way she was before, IMO would be bad parenting.


You're planning to place part of the blame on your daughter. It doesn't matter that you "plan to support her"... You've already decided that SHE will have done something to cause it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kitten_Val

Sahara said:


> I wonder what you would say if one of your daughters, against her better judgement, went to the wrong bar in the "bad" part of town and got gang raped. How much of that experience would be her fault? Or if she had too many beers one night in college and sent mixed signals to some guy who decided she really wanted it? How much blame would they have to absorb for choosing to drink beer and being in the wrong place at the wrong time?
> 
> Changes your perspective a little when you put your flesh and blood in the scenario, doesn't it?


I wouldn't stop to explain what is good and what bad and what can happen (and my mom never got tired explaining it to me either). If something would of happened (knock on wood) there are no faults anymore, because it simply doesn't matter already. It happened, and the family has to deal with all psychical (and possibly physical) wounds it caused. Personally I'd blame MYSELF in this situation for not preventing it and not providing strong enough warnings and explanations.


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## Missy May

I agree w Faceman. No one in their right mind is going to ever argue that anyone deserves to be raped. However, rapist exist, that is a fact, and they are not in their right mind.
To dress like a hooker is poor judgement as is going into the jungle un-armed in a bikini. Both are legal, neither assures or deserves to be attacked.


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## texasgal

.... and how many women I've known, that years later still haven't forgiven their mothers for somehow implying that they were to blame ....

"something fails"
"make sure it never happens again"

I'm serious here, Whisper, these things imply that she could have stopped it the first time, thus implying it is her fault. I know women who have lived for 40 years and NEVER forgiven their mothers for this.

A woman will always question what she could have done differently. She doesn't need someone to blame her. She needs someone to put that energy into making her violator pay for HIS crime.

You really really don't understand ...


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## Whisper22

Are you people serious? It is nauseating to me to know how little parenting you provide to your children because if something happens, well it's not their fault, so why change a thing. I'm sorry, but I think that's discusting.


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## MN Tigerstripes

kitten_Val said:


> I agree for the most part. But you have very slim chance of being raped in my town (I think I probably would be able to go naked at 3 am and nothing will happen). And if someone wants to rape me in mid of the day there will be bunch of people kicking his butt and calling police. However if you go to some area in DC you can get someone trying to get into your apartment to rape in mid of the day (speaking from my personal experience here, unfortunately), and noone give a sh*t, because it's a "norm".


KV, I was raped by the friend of a friend surrounded by all of my friends in a campground of a ton of people. My best friends weren't 20 ft away and the guy's cousin was within the same distance. It can literally happen ANYWHERE around anyone.


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## Whisper22

texasgal said:


> I'm serious here, Whisper, these things imply that she could have stopped it the first time, thus implying it is her fault. I know women who have lived for 40 years and NEVER forgiven their mothers for this.


What if there WAS something she could have done? YOU can not claim to know how every rape started. Neither can I. But I WILL let her know there might have been a way.

I don't give a rats a** if she ever forgave me. I would never forgive myself if it happened again because of my own ignorance.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

HorseMom1025 said:


> A stallion might not be able to resist mounting a mare in heat...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A STALLION most assuredly can resist mounting a mare in heat because if she's not at the right moment in that heat and she says, "NO" he backs down and walks away, because even a horse knows NO MEANS NO. Even if you're a mare with your tail up over your back and squatting and peeing every 5 minutes, TEASING A STALLION, for all you're worth; if you aren't ready to consumate even a stallion knows to just walk away. 

We're talking predators here, and studies have shown that it makes no difference what a person is wearing, it's an act of domination and debasement, there is NOTHING at all to do with sex in rape, it's all about anger and rage.


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## texasgal

Your own ignorance has you believing you can prevent it in the first place..

My prayer, for you and your daughters, is that you never, ever have to be tested on this.


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## dbarabians

I was sexually assualted by my commanding officer in the US Air Force.
He insisted i come over and have a drink to discuss our squadron's future.
He did serve me a drink and kept telling me that I looked good in my jeans.
I will not go into details but I was held down and assualted repeatedly.
What I was wearing or how they fit had nothing to do with my assualt.
The cause and guilt of any rape lies only with the rapist.
Where a victim is , how they dress, or what they say is no way to blame for the violation people who are raped endure.
Rape is not about sex it is solely about power. 
The power to violate someone body and mind.
Rape is both a physical and mental act. For both the victim and the rapist.
I have only told 2 other people what happened years ago.
I have carried those scars and the anger for nearly 30 years.
As the father of 2 daughters i have stressed to them that they are to be aware of thier surroundings at all times.
This is the only thing a woman can do to prevent rape besides live in a closet.
Understandin is what is needed from all of us. Argueing about whose fault it is will not prevent rapes from being committed. Shalom


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## HorseMom1025

If it were her iPod that was stolen or some other smaller petty crime, than yes, we would be discussing what she could have done to prevent it.

But rape is not a petty crime and it's not something that you can sit the victim down and ask, "So, what did you do to make that man rape you?". Please educate yourself, talk to someone at a rape crisis center. Rape is THE worst crime that can happen to a person (and they survive). It tears at your psyche, it kills your self-esteem. The damage to a person who is raped NEVER goes away. It stays with you forever and dramatically changes you.

I will continue to hope it never impacts you personally. Not just because it is such a devastating crime but because I fear the damage YOU will have on the victim.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Whisper22

To believe every rape is the same is ignorant. There ARE rapes based on sex, as one poster on here described by her boyfriend, and the way you present yourself and your actions CAN be preventatives. I don't only want to protect my daughters from the predators who don't need to be provoked, but also from those who can be. That might just be me though *shrug*.


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## Missy May

Well, most things cannot be prevented 100%, but precautions can greatly reduce the likelihood of a given occurance. Rape is no exception. 

If one teaches their daughters it is just okay to dress, do and act anyway they choose b/c its a "feel good" free society, they have _failed_ to introduced "precaution" into the equation. Especially if they, in addition, fail to teach them how to handle a gun.


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## MN Tigerstripes

Horsemom's rape wasn't about sex, it was about his power over her as an individual. Did you read the rest of the post?? Classic mental abuse..


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

I think we've all just heard the deafening THUD of at least 2 minds slamming closed. Sad.

I don't think anyone here is saying that we should all throw caution and awareness to the winds and go get stupefied and then blame everyone else in the world for our bad decisions. But we all need to understand that NO MEANS NO, regardless of the situation. 

For instance, you come up to my door and ask to come in and use the phone and I say, "NO" and you kick in my door and head to the kitchen for the phone. I shoot you for breaking into my house. Did you think I was kidding? Well, why would I be kidding if I said NO to my rapist and got raped anyway? NO MEANS NO, period.


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## kitten_Val

texasgal said:


> .... and how many women I've known, that years later still haven't forgiven their mothers for somehow implying that they were to blame ....


True. And (most) mothers don't forgive themselves when it happens to their kid.

HM, I read your story, and it IS a rape, and I'm very sorry. Being passive out of fear/shame/age and letting the "friend" to use it to push into sex is as bad as being raped on street. It's a pity this guy was not punished as deserved.


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## HorseMom1025

Whisper22 said:


> To believe every rape is the same is ignorant. There ARE rapes based on sex, as one poster on here described by her boyfriend, and the way you present yourself and your actions CAN be preventatives. I don't only want to protect my daughters from the predators who don't need to be provoked, but also from those who can be. That might just be me though *shrug*.


Even my rape was based on power. Yes, sex played into it, but he THRIVED on the fact that he was my first and wanted to control me by threatening to tell everyone. The rumors only started when I defied him. He even said to me, "I love the thought that you will never be able to forget me because I was your first."

Don't fool yourself. Rape is about power. Other boys I dated were more than willing to stop if I said no or struggled. They may have been disappointed or angry, but they weren't rapists.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Whisper22

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I think we've all just heard the deafening THUD of at least 2 minds slamming closed. Sad.


MY mind is closed? Oh wow. You are siding with people who claim there is only ONE reason a rape happens and there is absolutely NOTHING you can do about it. Oh but you must be right, MY mind is closed.


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## Whisper22

HorseMom1025 said:


> Even my rape was based on power. Yes, sex played into it, but he THRIVED on the fact that he was my first and wanted to control me by threatening to tell everyone. The rumors only started when I defied him. He even said to me, "I love the thought that you will never be able to forget me because I was your first."
> 
> Don't fool yourself. Rape is about power. Other boys I dated were more than willing to stop if I said no or struggled. They may have been disappointed or angry, but they weren't rapists.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If nothing else, it is about both. And if it's easier for a man to over-power a woman dressed scantily, drunk and stumbling over herself, don't you think that might be the way he goes?


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## kitten_Val

dbarabians said:


> I was sexually assualted by my commanding officer in the US Air Force.
> He insisted i come over and have a drink to discuss our squadron's future.
> He did serve me a drink and kept telling me that I looked good in my jeans.


dba, I had a similar situation while in college. Unlike you (ans being young and brave) I brought it up to the upper-level department people. Just to be told that it's not a first case, and I better keep my mouth shut. What can I say... 

You can't sit in closet, because offenders are everywhere, but I try to (and encourage my friends and loved ones) to avoid the situations when it's too easy to become a victim.


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## JustDressageIt

Thank the Lord I have the mother I do who would never ever EVER bring up how I could have "prevented" a rape from happening. I know she would comfort and console me and encourage me that it WAS IN NO WAY MY FAULT. 
Whisper, you are WRONG. Can't you see that?! Your daughters ate going to learn and be more weary regardless if they ever get raped. By saying "here's what you could have done differently" you are implying that they didn't do enough to protect themselves. They need their mother's love, not their criticism of how they invited a violent crime to happen. 


Agh. I want to scream. I'm so very very disappointed in some people here.

To the victims - I am so so very sorry. Thank you for telling your stories, if it helps one person feel not alone, or opens one mind, or .. I could go on ... You have been so brave to share your stories. Thank you. I am here for anyone who would like an ear to listen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Whisper22

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I think we've all just heard the deafening THUD of at least 2 minds slamming closed. Sad.
> 
> I don't think anyone here is saying that we should all throw caution and awareness to the winds and go get stupefied and then blame everyone else in the world for our bad decisions. But we all need to understand that NO MEANS NO, regardless of the situation.


Please show me where I said NO DOESN'T ALWAYS MEAN NO. And NOT the parts that you conveniently interpreted that way. This isn't about whether or not rape is wrong. It's whether or not it could have prevented by have a little more discretion. I guarentee you, it could have, in not all, but yes in some.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Whisper22 said:


> MY mind is closed? Oh wow. You are siding with people who claim there is only ONE reason a rape happens and there is absolutely NOTHING you can do about it. Oh but you must be right, MY mind is closed.


I have NEVER said there is nothing that can be done about a rape. Not once. There are many things you can do to prevent or minimize the chances of getting raped, I'm female, 55 y.o. and retired law enforcement, I know what rape is all about and have dealt with many victims, male & female. I have never been raped, because in part, rape is about self esteem or the lack thereof. Most rapists will not attack the woman who is aware of her surroundings and gives off an air of being in control and walks like she has business. Substitute HE for SHE if you prefer, it's all the same. 

I also know that in some cases, there is nothing to be done about preventing it because the guy was going to rape SOMEONE that night or day and didn't give a sh*t who it was, someone was gonna get it. The victims all had their doors & windows locked, some had bars. Didn't matter. You're not ever much more modest than you are in pajamas, lights out, covers pulled up to your chin and they all still got raped. 7 or 70 their rapists did not care. To even insuate one of these victims 'asked for it' is the most insulting, ignorant thing I've ever read or heard.


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## Whisper22

JustDressageIt said:


> Thank the Lord I have the mother I do who would never ever EVER bring up how I could have "prevented" a rape from happening. I know she would comfort and console me and encourage me that it WAS IN NO WAY MY FAULT.
> Whisper, you are WRONG. Can't you see that?! Your daughters ate going to learn and be more weary regardless if they ever get raped. By saying "here's what you could have done differently" you are implying that they didn't do enough to protect themselves. They need their mother's love, not their criticism of how they invited a violent crime to happen.
> 
> 
> Agh. I want to scream. I'm so very very disappointed in some people here.
> 
> To the victims - I am so so very sorry. Thank you for telling your stories, if it helps one person feel not alone, or opens one mind, or .. I could go on ... You have been so brave to share your stories. Thank you. I am here for anyone who would like an ear to listen.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You want to scream? I WANT TO FRICKIN SCREAM! How about this, you parent your way and I'll parent mine.


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## Clayton Taffy

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> If he's better than anything else that's running, I'm glad I don't live in MO! No offense to the state, it's gorgeous but OHMILOWERED!


 
Dreamcatcher What does this insult mean, OHMILOWERED?


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## kitten_Val

JustDressageIt said:


> Thank the Lord I have the mother I do who would never ever EVER bring up how I could have "prevented" a rape from happening.


In opposite I'm thankful to my mom explained me that someone who may be interested in my body can add drugs to my glass (so better watch out), that it's a very bad idea to get into the car with strangers (I know several girls in my home town who were raped this way), that there are gangs in certain areas and I don't want to go there after darkness, and so on... I considered it all as a "prevention" and something to keep in mind.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Taffy Clayton said:


> Dreamcatcher What does this insult mean, OHMILOWERED?


 
LOL! Taffy, it's not an insult. It just means, OH MY LORD! but the way I say it, it kinda runs together and being from the south, nothing is EVER just one syllable. :wink:


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## Whisper22

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I have NEVER said there is nothing that can be done about a rape. Not once. There are many things you can do to prevent or minimize the chances of getting raped, I'm female, 55 y.o. and retired law enforcement, I know what rape is all about and have dealt with many victims, male & female. I have never been raped, because in part, rape is about self esteem or the lack thereof. Most rapists will not attack the woman who is aware of her surroundings and gives off an air of being in control and walks like she has business. Substitute HE for SHE if you prefer, it's all the same.
> 
> I also know that in some cases, there is nothing to be done about preventing it because the guy was going to rape SOMEONE that night or day and didn't give a sh*t who it was, someone was gonna get it. The victims all had their doors & windows locked, some had bars. Didn't matter. You're not ever much more modest than you are in pajamas, lights out, covers pulled up to your chin and they all still got raped. 7 or 70 their rapists did not care. To even insuate one of these victims 'asked for it' is the most insulting, ignorant thing I've ever read or heard.


I agree with you and pretty sure that's all I've been saying. If there is something my daughters can do to prevent or minimize their risk, I WILL let them know.


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## dbarabians

Let's all remember that none of us are saying rape is the fault of the victim.
This is a very sensitive subject. 
We are all uncomfortable discussing it therefore our emotions are running hot. Thats understandable.
Getting mad and frustrated with each other is doing no one any good.
We all are mad that rapes occur.
Lives are destroyed and the victims are misunderstood.
This discussion is important and hopefully it will be read as it is intended. to be informative and healing.
There will be young people that will be assualted in thier lives.
Perhaps if they read this thread they can see that others have suffered yet survived. This ijs important.
I disclosed my rape for a very selfish reason. To Heal.
This morning only 4 people knew about my rape.
myself the rapist and two Pyschiatrist.
This afternoon a lot more know. Shalom


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## JustDressageIt

My mom has taught me how to care for myself and protect myself. But despite all that, IF I were to get raped ever, I do NOT want her to go over it and say "well you know if you hadn't worn that shirt/had that drink, you probably could have avoided it..."
No. I want support. I don't want criticism of how I could have "prevented" such a horrible act. I don't want HER to tell me that I may have had a part in asking to be raped.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MN Tigerstripes

You haven't just said that Whisper, you've also said that woman should be "held responsible" for the way they dressed, you've also said that some women provoke rape. That goes beyond preventing and minimizing risk.

KV said they were asking for it if they dressed a certain way or went to a certain area. 

Both of those thoughts are blaming the victim.


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## HorseMom1025

I think all good parents talk to their children about danger. It's our job. My daughter (9) already has more awareness than most kids her age. I think my own experiences have made me more aware of the dangers in the world. She and I often discuss strategies when driving to he barn.

I do fear that she's a bit too enthusiastic about protecting herself. I did have to tell her that the school administration frowns on her taking a baseball bat to any boy who even winks at her, LOL! (just to reassure everyone, she was joking...I hope). . Her Daddy, of course, didn't see anything wrong with her plan.

I hope and pray everyday that my daughter NEVER experience what I did. I work hard to give her the skills and knowledge she needs to protect herself in this sometimes brutal world. However, if God forbid, anything does happen to her, despite our careful training, I will be there for her. 

And, in the case of rape, I can assure you she will be more cautious and more careful without anyone saying a word to her. Trust me, it takes a long time to trust again after something like that. If you ever do learn to trust again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Whisper22

MN Tigerstripes said:


> You haven't just said that Whisper, you've also said that woman should be "held responsible" for the way they dressed, you've also said that some women provoke rape. That goes beyond preventing and minimizing risk.
> 
> KV said they were asking for it if they dressed a certain way or went to a certain area.
> 
> Both of those thoughts are blaming the victim.


I don't know about you but I dress myself in the morning, therefore making what I put on my body my responsibility. Common sense tells me the kind of attention my clothes will get me. I plan on passing that common sense on to my daughters.

Blame? No. Responsibility? Some. You can disagree if you want, but my daughters will learn to dress and act responsibly, and if that means possibly preventing a predator from choosing them over the sloppy drunk next to them, I've done my job.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

JustDressageIt said:


> My mom has taught me how to care for myself and protect myself. But despite all that, IF I were to get raped ever, I do NOT want her to go over it and say "well you know if you hadn't worn that shirt/had that drink, you probably could have avoided it..."
> No. I want support. I don't want criticism of how I could have "prevented" such a horrible act. I don't want HER to tell me that I may have had a part in asking to be raped.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I totally agree with you. Had a deputy working with me, male or female, EVER asked a victim if she thought she could have done something to prevent the rape or if she felt she was somewhat at fault because of what she wore or drank or did, that deputy would have been rolled back to the jail to work with the rapists because they had the same mentality, both knuckle draggers. 

Now, I'm not saying that going to the bad part of town dressed in a micro mini, halter top and getting drunker than Cooty Brown is necessarily a good, responsible decision and I would give my kid pure H E L L for it, under good circumstances and I'd educate them about many things they could do in bad situations, but I would NEVER say that they had caused their own rape. Hopefully, by educating the kids at a young age, when they got older they'd make better decisions, but there's no guarantee of that. 

I come from a law enforcement family and I probably knew more about bad things that can happen to good people than most kids my age, and I STILL made some pretty bad decisions. Fun at the time but not great decisions none the less. 

I'm a tomboy and always have been, so going out and partying with the boys and hanging with a rough and tumble bunch? Oh yeah, been there done that, and still do on occasion. But, I was always taught that anyone who wanted to violate me could pay with his life and I've always lived with that mentality. I've never been taught to act like a victim and so I have never victimized. I'm not overly trusting, I always look around me and know what area I'm in, who's around me and I never sit with my back to a window or door. I survived working in one of the roughest, highest crime areas in the country for an entire carreer and I grew up running the streets in that same area. They don't call San Bernardino county San Burn A Ghetto for nothing. 

You want to teach your kids how to avoid trouble? Teach them not to be victims and to not have a victim's mindset from the start. That will help them more than all the preaching, moralizing and restrictions in the world.


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## kitten_Val

JustDressageIt said:


> But despite all that, IF I were to get raped ever, I do NOT want her to go over it and say "well you know if you hadn't worn that shirt/had that drink, you probably could have avoided it..."


I can't think of ANY mom saying that!


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## Whisper22

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I totally agree with you. Had a deputy working with me, male or female, EVER asked a victim if she thought she could have done something to prevent the rape or if she felt she was somewhat at fault because of what she wore or drank or did, that deputy would have been rolled back to the jail to work with the rapists because they had the same mentality, both knuckle draggers.
> 
> Now, I'm not saying that going to the bad part of town dressed in a micro mini, halter top and getting drunker than Cooty Brown is necessarily a good, responsible decision and I would give my kid pure H E L L for it, under good circumstances and I'd educate them about many things they could do in bad situations, but I would NEVER say that they had caused their own rape. Hopefully, by educating the kids at a young age, when they got older they'd make better decisions, but there's no guarantee of that.
> 
> I come from a law enforcement family and I probably knew more about bad things that can happen to good people than most kids my age, and I STILL made some pretty bad decisions. Fun at the time but not great decisions none the less.
> 
> I'm a tomboy and always have been, so going out and partying with the boys and hanging with a rough and tumble bunch? Oh yeah, been there done that, and still do on occasion. But, I was always taught that anyone who wanted to violate me could pay with his life and I've always lived with that mentality. I've never been taught to act like a victim and so I have never victimized. I'm not overly trusting, I always look around me and know what area I'm in, who's around me and I never sit with my back to a window or door. I survived working in one of the roughest, highest crime areas in the country for an entire carreer and I grew up running the streets in that same area. They don't call San Bernardino county San Burn A Ghetto for nothing.
> 
> You want to teach your kids how to avoid trouble? Teach them not to be victims and to not have a victim's mindset from the start. That will help them more than all the preaching, moralizing and restrictions in the world.


Being a deputy and being someones mother are two very different things. Helping your child understand a role they may have played, if not playing that role would have prevented the whole thing, is part of being a parent. I am not saying this is the case with ever rape, but if you know your child put on a tight little mini skirt and went to a party where there was drinking, you wouldn't say anything to her about her actions? Well I would.


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## Whisper22

I some how get the feeling that people are very foolishly applying what I say to EVERY rape situation, no matter how clear I am.


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## NdAppy

kitten_Val said:


> I can't think of ANY mom saying that!


KV, Whisper basically said she would do just that if her daughters were raped...



Whisper22 said:


> No, it doesn't change my perspective at all. I have this perspective for the protection of my daughters. But if by chance something fails, I would be there for her in every way, but you better **** well believe that when the dust settles, I will be asking her what SHE could have done differently to make sure it never happens again. To send her back out, to act the exact same way she was before, IMO would be bad parenting.


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## Whisper22

NdAppy said:


> KV, Whisper basically said she would do just that if her daughters were raped...


I'm pretty sure I didn't share the exact wording I would use, but that's very presumptuous of you.


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## kitten_Val

MN Tigerstripes said:


> if they dressed a certain way or went to a certain area.
> 
> *Both of those thoughts are blaming the victim.*


I strongly disagree. *You can NOT blame the victim. *Period. And I'm sorry if that's how you read that. You can think the person did a wrong thing by going somewhere or doing something (again not dressing, dressing was just a part of the equation, so don't flip my words, please). That doesn't equal to _*blaming *_the person. If it already happened - it happened, and you can't do much but feel sorry and offer the help/support. Nothing gonna change it.


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## JustDressageIt

Whisper22 said:


> Being a deputy and being someones mother are two very different things. Helping your child *understand a role they may have played, if not playing that role would have prevented the whole thing, is part of being a parent.* I am not saying this is the case with ever rape, but if you know your child put on a tight little mini skirt and went to a party where there was drinking, you wouldn't say anything to her about her actions? Well I would.


Putting blame on the victim. Fantastic. 
If my mother did this (she wouldn't, she is one of my best friends and a fantastic parent) it would very seriously damage our relationship, if not end it. 
May your daughters never have to face their mother questioning their integrity and make an awful situation worse.

The "role they played" - this makes me sick. Absolutely nauseated. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HorseMom1025

Would I say something about her clothes/actions after she was raped? No, I wouldn't. Because in her head she will be replaying what happened and beating herself up with "if only". If only I hadn't gone out that night. If only I had stopped at one beer. If only I hadn't flirted with that guy. If only I hadn't worn that skirt. If only I had screamed louder/fought harder. 

Trust me, victims do enough to blame themselves in these scenarios. I'm not going to be the person who pours salt on their wounds. My job is support, love, and empathy...not beating her over the head with more "if only" scenarios.

This is from someone who still thinks "if only" 22 years later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Whisper22 said:


> Being a deputy and being someones mother are two very different things.
> 
> 
> Helping your child understand a role they may have played, if not playing that role would have prevented the whole thing, is part of being a parent. I am not saying this is the case with ever rape, but if you know your child put on a tight little mini skirt and went to a party where there was drinking, you wouldn't say anything to her about her actions? Well I would.


 
No, actually, it's not. Sometimes being a deputy means being a mother or father to the folks you deal with, some of them have not had much in the way of a role model. 

I'm not saying not to educate your children, by all means, please do! 

And yes, I'd say something to my kid if she went to party where there was drinking going on, especially if she was under 21. Frankly, I'd tear her a new one, ground her and then I'd be going after the other folks at the party for providing alcohol to minors and I'd be having words with the adults/parents who owned the property where the party was at. 

Over 21, not much I can say, she's an adult. 

As for the mini skirt, no, I don't have a problem with a mini skirt, so long as it's just that, still a skirt. We referred to the beyond short ones as "hair nets" and my kid would not be allowed out the door wearing something like that. 

We had a foreign exchange student a couple years ago and I discovered that fashions in EU were a LOT more revealing and tighter than here in good ole Bible Belt USA. We had to take her out and get a whole 'nuther wardrobe so she could go to school, there was NOTHING that she brought from home that a/met the dress code or b/I'd allow her out the door in. And we had looooong talks about how late, where she could go and with whom she could go and I daresay she was glad to go home where her folks were a little less strict.

***ETA**** and just fyi, SUICIDE post rape is a fairly common occurance. I would not want to be the mother who blamed her daughter for being raped and then came home to find her with her wrists slit or hanging.


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## kitten_Val

NdAppy said:


> KV, Whisper basically said she would do just that if her daughters were raped...


I thought she was talking about the prevention of the rape situation (as well as I did). I can't imagine talking about why it was wrong to do _after _the rape happened. And it doesn't matter anyway after the fact if you did it right or wrong.


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## Whisper22

I wouldn't pound it into her head day after day, obviously, but to not say anything I think is very bad parenting, especially when there were obvious precautions. Again, get sick all you want, you parent your way, I'll parent mine.

So your daughter goes to a party where there's underage drinking and gets ripped a new one, but if she goes to a party where there's underage drinking and gets raped, all of a sudden she did nothing wrong.


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## MN Tigerstripes

kitten_Val said:


> When you have a very short skirt or open upper-wear and go to the pub, get drunk, and flirt with someone, or simply go to the bad district (where you don't belong and don't have a need to be) after certain hour, *yes you ASK for it*. Does it make it any better or the guy(s) less guilty? NO. The raper(s) must be punished, and punished hard. But in many situations the rape could of be avoided in 1st place. Simply by NOT going where you shouldn't. And if you did (knowing possible consequences) it's called* "asking troubles on your own a*s"*.
> 
> As for don't stop, I know several situations when women kept flirting till the moment it should happen, and then tried to back off. Guess what? Not every man backs off. Again, is he guilty? Yes. *But is the woman guilty? IMHO yes as well. *Even though she screams a "rape" and runs to police after the act.
> 
> Of course there are plenty of situations when it's neither a stupid decision nor provocation, but a real rape.


I'm sorry KV, I'm not trying to flip your words. Just not sure how else to take the highlighted statements above. If you're saying that someone is "asking" for something then you are blaming them for what happened.

I have personal experience with this, I'm one of those girls' that "asked" for it. I was drunk and naive, 18 years old. At that point I could probably count on less than two hands the amount of times I'd been drunk. We were at a river tubing for the weekend so I _was_ wearing a bikini. He offered to carry me back to the camper when I couldn't walk. That man took me into a camper and had sex with me as I lay there unable to say anything. I remember thinking "I don't want this to happen, please stop" and how badly it hurt but my mouth wouldn't move and neither could I. He wasn't even a stranger, he was one of my very good friend's cousin. As I said early I was with an entire group of good friends and they were all within 20 feet. 

Out of the few people I've told about this, maybe 3 haven't given me the "well you asked for it" or told me it wasn't "real" rape. Could I have prevented this from happening to me if I'd been more cynical or less trusting or not drunk? Maybe, maybe not. Someone who is going to have sex with a girl incapable of movement probably isn't going to care if she fights a little either, again it's about power over someone else. He's a dirtbag, plain and simple, I may have been stupid or naive, but still don't deserve the attitudes of several people on this thread about my experience. I never said anything for the longest time because of people with your and Whisper's attitudes about the situation. It's humiliating enough living with those memories..


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## JustDressageIt

She will go over that herself. My role will be to piece her life back together, not to enforce the "what ifs." If I were ever to be raped, heaven forbid, the last thing I would want is for my mother to say "let's go over it... Ok so you were drinking (bad!!!!!) and you wore a shirt that was too tight." - the implication and what I would hear is "...You kind of brought if on yourself." My "role" (that word makes me sick in this context) would have been "victim," nothing more. I would hate to think that my own mother would question if I could have prevented such a heinous act. 
No. I would want support and for my mother to comfort me. 
May your daughters never feel that their mother questioned their integrity - because that's what will happen. 

I'm done. It's very obvious that nothing will open some minds, and I feel very badly for them and (more so) their children. I'm just thankful I have the wonderful mother I was blessed to have.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt

MNT, I am so sorry that happened to you. If you ever need an ear, please PM me. You were (are) most definitely the victim, and I am so sorry you haven't received the support you should. 
You were not in any way "asking for it." He's a (word I can't type out here).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## texasgal

*Rape Statistics*

*Sexual assault…it’s not about lust and desire, it’s a violent crime of POWER, CONTROL and DOMINANCE *


Every *45 seconds* someone in the United States is sexually assaulted .
1 out of every 7 women currently in college has been raped, however, *9 out of 10* women raped on campus never tell anyone about the rape.
1 in 10 men is raped in his lifetime, *1 in 7* of those victims will have been assaulted before the age of 18.
More than *61.5%* of rapes are never reported to law enforcement.
Approximately *28%* of rape victims are raped by their husbands, *35%* by an acquaintance, and *17%* by a relative other than spouse.
*74%* of sexual assaults are perpetrated by assailants *well known* to the victim.
A female child victim is* 7 times* more likely to be re-victimized as an adult.
*Nearly 6 out of 10 sexual assaults occur at the victim’s home or the home of a friend, relative, or neighbor.*
*1 in 15* rape victims contract a sexually transmitted disease (STD) as a result of being raped.
*1 in 15* rape victims become pregnant as a result of being raped.
The United States has the world’s highest rape rate of all countries that publish such data-
An American woman is *10 times more likely* to be raped than to die in a car crash.
*61%* of rape victims are females under the age of 18.


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## Whisper22

JustDressageIt said:


> She will go over that herself. My role will be to piece her life back together, not to enforce the "what ifs." If I were ever to be raped, heaven forbid, the last thing I would want is for my mother to say "let's go over it... Ok so you were drinking (bad!!!!!) and you wore a shirt that was too tight." - the implication and what I would hear is "...You kind of brought if on yourself." My "role" (that word makes me sick in this context) would have been "victim," nothing more. I would hate to think that my own mother would question if I could have prevented such a heinous act.
> No. I would want support and for my mother to comfort me.
> May your daughters never feel that their mother questioned their integrity - because that's what will happen.
> 
> I'm done. It's very obvious that nothing will open some minds, and I feel very badly for them and (more so) their children. I'm just thankful I have the wonderful mother I was blessed to have.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Whatever. If you lack the compassion to be able to talk to your children about serious issues without making them hate you, that's your problem.


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## texasgal

You are really one to talk about compassion .....


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## Speed Racer

Whisper22 said:


> Whatever. If you lack the compassion to be able to talk to your children about serious issues without making them hate you, that's your problem.


I don't think JDI is the one without compassion here. :?


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## Whisper22

Oh get off if Speed Racer, I feel the same way about you based solely on how you treat people on this forum.


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## HorseMom1025

To give you another scenario. If my child sneaks out in the middle of the night and is picked up by some stranger and kidnapped for ransom ... would I lecture her on the dangers of sneaking out at night if she is safely returned? No. At that point I can assume she is well aware of the dangers. Now I need to help her heal from her trauma.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Whisper22

My children know I love them, and part if being a good parent is being able to have a discussion without them feeling attacked. I'm sorry everyone else's solution is to just avoid it, you feel sorry for my kids, I feel sorry for yours.


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## texasgal

Speed, she doesn't serve the Christian God.

Christ died to redeem us from sin .. not to beat us over the head with it after we've already suffered the consequences.

That's something ALOT of church going folk seem to forget.

But that's for another discussion..


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## Whisper22

texasgal said:


> Speed, she doesn't serve the Christian God.
> 
> Christ died to redeem us from sin .. not to beat us over the head with it after we've already suffered the consequences.
> 
> That's something ALOT of church going folk seem to forget.
> 
> But that's for another discussion..


Yeah because that's what I said I would do, beat them over the head with it. Please show me where I used those words. I guess we're at the point where we just make stuff up.


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## JustDressageIt

Wait, what? Wives being raped by their husbands? That can't be! Let's figure out how they could act or dress differently to prevent that from happening...!!! 

/sarcasm.

Please, whisper - let me know how you would "educate" your daughters if one of them told you their husband had raped them. What could they have done to prevent it? 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MN Tigerstripes

Whisper22 said:


> My children know I love them, and part if being a good parent is being able to have a discussion without them feeling attacked. I'm sorry everyone else's solution is to just avoid it, you feel sorry for my kids, I feel sorry for yours.


I don't think anyone would avoid it Whisper, I think they would approach the talk quite a bit differently than you and from a much more compassionate viewpoint. Anyone who has been raped has spent hours going over what happened in their mind, usually blaming it on themselves, and spends many years looking at situations with an eye towards doing their best to preventing it from happening again. The last thing they need is someone going over what happened with a fine toothed comb talking about how maybe going out in that particular skirt was a bad decision. They need support and sympathy, not judgement.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Whisper22 said:


> So your daughter goes to a party where there's underage drinking and gets ripped a new one, but if she goes to a party where there's underage drinking and gets raped, all of a sudden she did nothing wrong.


 
No, she'd get ripped a new one about the under age drinking and the law regardless, and we'd be having some serious chats about why she felt the need to drink as a teenager and just how much and what else, etc etc. I guarantee you, I'd be a lot rougher on her than you probably would be on yours. The difference is, I'd rip her for the behaviour she could change, not for the rape. And hopefully, I'd get wind of the partying BEFORE she got raped and we'd have a CTJ meeting about it BEFORE rape counselling became necessary. I would not EVER chastise her for the rape. I would however, put the word on the street that the animal who raped her had better find a deep, dark hole to hide in.


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## Whisper22

JustDressageIt said:


> Wait, what? Wives being raped by their husbands? That can't be! Let's figure out how they could act or dress differently to prevent that from happening...!!!
> 
> /sarcasm.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Again your ignorance shining through. I guess my very clear statement about people foolishly applying what I've said to every rape case was just proven. Thank you.


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## Whisper22

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> No, she'd get ripped a new one about the under age drinking and the law regardless, and we'd be having some serious chats about why she felt the need to drink as a teenager and just how much and what else, etc etc. I guarantee you, I'd be a lot rougher on her than you probably would be on yours. The difference is, I'd rip her for the behaviour she could change, not for the rape. And hopefully, I'd get wind of the partying BEFORE she got raped and we'd have a CTJ meeting about it BEFORE rape counselling became necessary. I would not EVER chastise her for the rape. I would however, put the word on the street that the animal who raped her had better find a deep, dark hole to hide in.


And you would somehow never once bring up the fact that the drinking made her vulnerable to her rape. I don't believe you for one second, and even if you did, you don't think should would associate your ripping her a new one with her rape anyway?

And when did I ever say that I would chastise my daughter for her rape? NEVER that's when.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

texasgal said:


> *Rape Statistics*
> 
> *Sexual assault…it’s not about lust and desire, it’s a violent crime of POWER, CONTROL and DOMINANCE *
> 
> 
> Every *45 seconds* someone in the United States is sexually assaulted .
> 1 out of every 7 women currently in college has been raped, however, *9 out of 10* women raped on campus never tell anyone about the rape.
> 1 in 10 men is raped in his lifetime, *1 in 7* of those victims will have been assaulted before the age of 18.
> More than *61.5%* of rapes are never reported to law enforcement.
> Approximately *28%* of rape victims are raped by their husbands, *35%* by an acquaintance, and *17%* by a relative other than spouse.
> *74%* of sexual assaults are perpetrated by assailants *well known* to the victim.
> A female child victim is* 7 times* more likely to be re-victimized as an adult.
> *Nearly 6 out of 10 sexual assaults occur at the victim’s home or the home of a friend, relative, or neighbor.*
> *1 in 15* rape victims contract a sexually transmitted disease (STD) as a result of being raped.
> *1 in 15* rape victims become pregnant as a result of being raped.
> The United States has the world’s highest rape rate of all countries that publish such data-
> An American woman is *10 times more likely* to be raped than to die in a car crash.
> *61%* of rape victims are females under the age of 18.


 
I 'LIKED' this to thank you for posting it, I don't actually like it. But the statistics speak for themselves, dress and locale has almost zero to do with the actual act of rape. 

What I want to emphasize here, and parents you should be really aware of this one*, MORE THAN 61.5% OF RAPES ARE NEVER REPORTED TO LAW ENFORCEMENT.*

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it's a much higher percentage of rapes that are never reported to parents, priests, counsellors or significant others. Many women go home, take a shower, change their underwear and clothing and never say a word to anyone. Those are the most likely to try to commit suicide after the rape. They feel degraded, dirty, worthless, alone and GUILTY. They don't need someone judgemental 2nd guessing their dress or actions.


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## texasgal

DA .. I also thought it was striking that if our daughters get raped, it's more likely to happen in a familiar setting, by someone they know or are related to.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Whisper22 said:


> And you would somehow never once bring up the fact that the drinking made her vulnerable to her rape. I don't believe you for one second, and even if you did, you don't think should would associate your ripping her a new one with her rape anyway?
> 
> And when did I ever say that I would chastise my daughter for her rape? NEVER that's when.


At this point I'm gonna call BS on you and say you just want to argue. I've been very civil and not jumped all over you the way some of the others have. I don't agree with you, but it's your right to believe and parent how you wish. 

If you knew me in person you would know that a/yes, I would rip her a new one for the drinking and b/ the rape would be a completely separate issue. It's one of those things you learn in the academy I guess, dealing with separate issues and priorities. If she were raped, she would first receive all the counselling and support she could possibly want. Then, in the future, we'd have that alocohol and party talk. For me, it's not that the alcohol may have led to her rape, I don't believe that way at all for one thing, but it's a matter of she's breaking the law by under age drinking. She would have consequences for that behaviour, but not for having been a victim. There's also the SELF ESTEEM issue of under age drinking, and THAT I believe is what leads people to being victims, of alcoholism, rape, drug addiction, domestic violence and many other of our social ills.


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## Sahara

Whisper22 said:


> And you would somehow never once bring up the fact that the drinking made her vulnerable to her rape. I don't believe you for one second, and even if you did, you don't think should would associate your ripping her a new one with her rape anyway?
> 
> And when did I ever say that I would chastise my daughter for her rape? NEVER that's when.


You know it is one thing to talk about this BEFORE it happens. When you sit down and talk to your children about the dangers of drinking, the fact that it can lead to poor decision making, makes you dangerous behind the wheel of a car, yada, yada. I hope you do have that conversation with them at some point. That is good parenting. However, I am not sure when it would ever be a good idea to criticize them for their decision making skills POST rape. You would probably be too busy consoling them, getting them counseling, keeping a vigilant eye on their emotional health, and being glad they weren't murdered and cut into tiny pieces to tell them drinking at that party was a really poor decision. Now, next time you get invited to a frat party, what will you do differently?

:evil:


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

texasgal said:


> DA .. I also thought it was striking that if our daughters get raped, it's more likely to happen in a familiar setting, by someone they know or are related to.


That's also very true. The serial rapist tends to be a stranger, but far and away, most rapes are committed by known subjects, family or 'friends'.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Sahara said:


> Now, next time you get invited to a frat party, what will you do differently?
> 
> :evil:


 
I won't wear a toga! :wink:


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## HorseMom1025

Getting back to the original point of this topic...personally, I don't believe in the idea of "legitimate" rape.

If one participant is unwilling (or unaware) it's rape. Regardless of circumstances, location, victims dress or actions. Rape is a crime. To me, there are no shades of gray. I think that's why I found the original quote (and much of the legislation that applies to rape) offensive. To say that a woman's body "knows" the difference and will prevent pregnancy if she is raped (thus eliminating the reason for an abortion) is just plain ignorant.

I would like to ban the term "legitimate rape" from all legislation because it opens the door for ignorant morons like this guy to deny a person rights because HE doesn't feel like it was a "real" rape.

Every American needs to get out and vote this election. Regardless of your political alliance, we need better voter turn out to prevent guys like this from getting elected. Voter apathy is destroying our government.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## texasgal

Sahara .. I would have to believe that even someone who thinks they have all the answers right now, when faced with a daughter that is physically violated and emotionally broken, would be so broken hearted that someone could hurt her child, that she would be there to love her, console her, and help her put her life back together. No judgement, no condemnation, only love.

I have to believe that. Anything else would be cruel.


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## kait18

i really am hurt by some of the things some have posted here.


i was a victim of being drugged and raped and couldnt physically say no or fight off my attacker. and some things here really are disheartening to hear. 

and it is not based on what you wear. my attacker took a video of what he did and clearly stated that women should not have any say in anything since they are so vulnerable and weak. 

i also became pregnant from this and had an abortion immediately. as i walked to the planned parenthood i had people screaming at me i was horriable and a murderer but yet not one of them knew i was a victim of rape carrying a baby i did not ask for nor wish to have. 

no wonder i am so messed up in the head and have confidence issues..other people telling me i deserved what i got because i dressed a certain way, i got pregnant because i didnt magically tell my body that i dont want to conceive on this day.. 

the day you are raped and have your body violated and your mind totally taken away from you is the day you will understand what a victim goes through.

i am still shaking typing this and bringing up these memories and yet find that some people hear would blame the victim of causing there own rape, which is just clarity for me that i was right to be nervous to have the police take a report and for me to go to court. people will judge you not by your character or the person you are but by what you wear and a quick glance.


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## Whisper22

Well, I think I asked a very legitimate question. That's great that YOU can seperate the issues, but I guarentee she will not be seperating them when you bring up her drinking at a party she was raped at, and I think you know that.

I would of course support my daughters in any way possible to help them get through their tragedy, but when they are able, they will here the things that made them vulnerable and how to possibly prevent it in the future, and I have confidence in my relationships that I can do that without tarnishing them or hurting their selfesteem. I will not send them out in the world to act and dress any way they please, only to have it happen again. If that makes me a duscusting person in everyones eyes, then so be it, you don't know me.


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## Whisper22

texasgal said:


> Sahara .. I would have to believe that even someone who thinks they have all the answers right now, when faced with a daughter that is physically violated and emotionally broken, would be so broken hearted that someone could hurt her child, that she would be there to love her, console her, and help her put her life back together. No judgement, no condemnation, only love.
> 
> I have to believe that. Anything else would be cruel.



All of those things are still possible while at the same time being able to talk things out. If you can't, your relationship with your child needs to be evaluated.


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## Sahara

I am very, very sorry about what happened to you, kait18.


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## Sahara

Is there an ignore feature on HF?? I have read enough "stupid" for a lifetime.


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## wetrain17

Whisper22 said:


> Well, I think I asked a very legitimate question. That's great that YOU can seperate the issues, but I guarentee she will not be seperating them when you bring up her drinking at a party she was raped at, and I think you know that.
> 
> I would of course support my daughters in any way possible to help them get through their tragedy, but when they are able, they will here the things that made them vulnerable and how to possibly prevent it in the future, and I have confidence in my relationships that I can do that without tarnishing them or hurting their selfesteem. I will not send them out in the world to act and dress any way they please, only to have it happen again. If that makes me a duscusting person in everyones eyes, then so be it, you don't know me.


Do you think any of them would want to hear "what made them vulnerable" from their mother after going through something like that? Do you know how sensitive they will be on that subject for the rest of their life and you want to tell them what they did wrong! Are you kidding me? Next thing you'll be saying is that children are at fault for playing outside and then being kidnapped!


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## Whisper22

kait18 said:


> i really am hurt by some of the things some have posted here.
> 
> 
> i was a victim of being drugged and raped and couldnt physically say no or fight off my attacker. and some things here really are disheartening to hear.
> 
> and it is not based on what you wear. my attacker took a video of what he did and clearly stated that women should not have any say in anything since they are so vulnerable and weak.
> 
> i also became pregnant from this and had an abortion immediately. as i walked to the planned parenthood i had people screaming at me i was horriable and a murderer but yet not one of them knew i was a victim of rape carrying a baby i did not ask for nor wish to have.
> 
> no wonder i am so messed up in the head and have confidence issues..other people telling me i deserved what i got because i dressed a certain way, i got pregnant because i didnt magically tell my body that i dont want to conceive on this day..
> 
> the day you are raped and have your body violated and your mind totally taken away from you is the day you will understand what a victim goes through.
> 
> i am still shaking typing this and bringing up these memories and yet find that some people hear would blame the victim of causing there own rape, which is just clarity for me that i was right to be nervous to have the police take a report and for me to go to court. people will judge you not by your character or the person you are but by what you wear and a quick glance.


Your rape is obviously different than what I am referring to. I never said every rape was brought on by the victim because of the way they dressed, far from it actually.


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## HorseMom1025

Kait18 (((((((HUGS)))))).

If you look at the majority of the posts they do not blame the victim. There are only two who with their words indicated that a victim shares some responsibility in some circumstances...and the majority of us violently disagree.

You are not to blame for what happened to you. You were the victim of a sick twisted human being whose actions forced you to make a very difficult decision. You did nothing wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Whisper22

wetrain17 said:


> Do you think any of them would want to hear "what made them vulnerable" from their mother after going through something like that? Do you know how sensitive they will be on that subject for the rest of their life and you want to tell them what they did wrong! Are you kidding me? Next thing you'll be saying is that children are at fault for playing outside and then being kidnapped!


Give me a break. As their mother I see it as my responsibility to help prevent it from happening again, if possible. Avoiding their own behavior is doing them no favors. Now I'm just repeating myself.


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## Whisper22

HorseMom1025 said:


> Kait18 (((((((HUGS)))))).
> 
> If you look at the majority of the posts they do not blame the victim. There are only two who with their words indicated that a victim shares some responsibility in some circumstances...and the majority of us violently disagree.
> 
> You are not to blame for what happened to you. You were the victim of a sick twisted human being whose actions forced you to make a very difficult decision. You did nothing wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Actually not a single post blamed the victim.


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## texasgal

*thud*

I think it's time to stop feeding the troll. Seriously. She has contridicted herself a dozen times in an attempt to continue arguing...


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## Whisper22

texasgal said:


> *thud*
> 
> I think it's time to stop feeding the troll. Seriously. She has contridicted herself a dozen times in an attempt to continue arguing...


It's only a contradiction when you take the words you've put in my mouth and what I've actually said.

You may leave if you like.


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## HorseMom1025

Texasgal, I think you are correct. Even if she isn't a troll, I think we've ventured far enough down this dead end path. We've all stated our points and no one is willing to bend. Even when their own posts are quoted back at them.

So what new path shall we forge? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MN Tigerstripes

I'm sorry for what happened to you Kait, it is in no way shape or form your fault. The person who did this to you is at fault, not you in the slightest. 

Whisper, I'm going to try and get through to you one last time on this. You would not be "avoiding their own behavior" by not nit picking the details of the rape (what they wore, were they drinking) for what they did that "caused" it to happen. What you aren't understanding is that is just added more injury on top of an already traumatic experience. Again. EVERY person that is raped has these thoughts. For YEARS in a lot of cases. You've heard from several people on this thread and they've all told you the same thing, yet you persist in this belief that you would be helping your child by scrutinizing her behavior pre-rape. You would not be helping in the slightest. Your child would already be having those thoughts and probably much much worse.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

WELL, back on the original topic, I see the politico has stated he's in for the long run in spite of loss of ad & support dollars, opinions from his own party that he should drop out and he's still saying we all misunderstood him and now HE'S the VICTIM.........HAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!


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## MN Tigerstripes

Oh wow. He really is a special one, isn't he?


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## NdAppy

Sahara said:


> Is there an ignore feature on HF?? I have read enough "stupid" for a lifetime.


Go to your "User CP" on the left hand side is Setting and options. Under that is "Edit Ignore List" click on that and add away :lol:


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## kait18

Whisper22 said:


> Your rape is obviously different than what I am referring to. I never said every rape was brought on by the victim because of the way they dressed, far from it actually.


 
i dont see a difference... you and kv clearly stated that rape victims generally aren't completely faultless. 

yes i was wearing a short skirt, tangtop, and heels going clubbing that alone from some of your posts tells me i was at fault for why this man drugged, raped, and videotaped me. yet i never spoke to him, i never put my drink down and picked it back up. i tried to be safe while going out with friends. i did all the right things. stay with my group until i got sick and was lead to the bathroom, dont talk to strangers enless you have a buddy or two with you, never go anywhere alone with a stranger, never take a drink from a stranger...none of the precautions i was taught kept me from being raped. 

you are generalizing that rape victims could have been taught not to be raped before it happened. but the sad fact is you can prepare all you want but it still isn't going to help you in the majority of cases, especially for female vicitms men are naturally stronger then us due to there body build. you can talk all you want after wards blaming the victim or the attacker but it doesnt help the mental scaring that has already been completely intacted into the victims brain nor can you erase the rush from the attackers memory as he relives the attack.


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## Whisper22

I love how having your own opinion and disagreeing with someone automatically makes you a troll. Typical thought process of members here who find they infact cannot beat their way of thinking into someone head.


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## Sahara

Whisper22 said:


> You may leave if you like.


You may follow your own advice.


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## Whisper22

MN Tigerstripes said:


> I'm sorry for what happened to you Kait, it is in no way shape or form your fault. The person who did this to you is at fault, not you in the slightest.
> 
> Whisper, I'm going to try and get through to you one last time on this. You would not be "avoiding their own behavior" by not nit picking the details of the rape (what they wore, were they drinking) for what they did that "caused" it to happen. What you aren't understanding is that is just added more injury on top of an already traumatic experience. Again. EVERY person that is raped has these thoughts. For YEARS in a lot of cases. You've heard from several people on this thread and they've all told you the same thing, yet you persist in this belief that you would be helping your child by scrutinizing her behavior pre-rape. You would not be helping in the slightest. Your child would already be having those thoughts and probably much much worse.


So because several people on the horseforum, not all, had an opposing opinion, I should ditch mine and follow. No thank you.


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## HorseMom1025

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> WELL, back on the original topic, I see the politico has stated he's in for the long run in spite of loss of ad & support dollars, opinions from his own party that he should drop out and he's still saying we all misunderstood him and now HE'S the VICTIM.........HAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!


I saw that too . But was it "legitimate" political suicide? LOL.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Whisper22

Sahara said:


> You may follow your own advice.


Never said I was tired of it. I can debate all day. Unlike others who get in a huff when someone doesn't agree.


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## MN Tigerstripes

Whisper22 said:


> So because several people on the horseforum, not all, had an opposing opinion, I should ditch mine and follow. No thank you.


Or you could take it as an opportunity to broaden your horizons and educate yourself on rape counseling and what happens to a victim afterwards.. 

Of course the word of several people who have actually experienced rape means nothing to you. Quite frankly at most ONE person in about 120 replies has said anything that supports your position in the slightest. But you're right, obviously not a reason to re-evaluate and possibly educate yourself. /sarcasm/


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## Whisper22

kait18 said:


> i dont see a difference... you and kv clearly stated that rape victims generally aren't completely faultless.
> 
> yes i was wearing a short skirt, tangtop, and heels going clubbing that alone from some of your posts tells me i was at fault for why this man drugged, raped, and videotaped me. yet i never spoke to him, i never put my drink down and picked it back up. i tried to be safe while going out with friends. i did all the right things. stay with my group until i got sick and was lead to the bathroom, dont talk to strangers enless you have a buddy or two with you, never go anywhere alone with a stranger, never take a drink from a stranger...none of the precautions i was taught kept me from being raped.
> 
> you are generalizing that rape victims could have been taught not to be raped before it happened. but the sad fact is you can prepare all you want but it still isn't going to help you in the majority of cases, especially for female vicitms men are naturally stronger then us due to there body build. you can talk all you want after wards blaming the victim or the attacker but it doesnt help the mental scaring that has already been completely intacted into the victims brain nor can you erase the rush from the attackers memory as he relives the attack.


I am not generalizing anything. As a matter of fact I am one of the very few people who have said rape happens in many different ways. But I will prepare my daughters to conduct themselves in a manner that will prevent at least one of those ways, being a teenage boy or man on the prowl for a drunk trashy teenage girl.


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## Whisper22

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Or you could take it as an opportunity to broaden your horizons and educate yourself on rape counseling and what happens to a victim afterwards..
> 
> Of course the word of several people who have actually experienced rape means nothing to you. Quite frankly at most ONE person in about 120 replies has said anything that supports your position in the slightest. But you're right, obviously not a reason to re-evaluate and possibly educate yourself. /sarcasm/


You don't know me or the people I know, so don't presume to know the experiences I've had. I may not have shared my life story with all of you but that doesn't mean I don't have one. Get off your high horse and stop assuming you know the right way to handle everything. You don't. I am entitled to my opinion and should not be bashed for it, i know that is beyond people here.


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## katbalu

Whisper22 said:


> I am not generalizing anything. As a matter of fact I am one of the very few people who have said rape happens in many different ways. But I will prepare my daughters to conduct themselves in a manner that will prevent at least one of those ways, being a teenage boy or man on the prowl for a drunk trashy teenage girl.


Wow. I sincerely hope you don't mean that the way it comes across. It has some nasty undertones.


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## kait18

Whisper22 said:


> I am not generalizing anything. As a matter of fact I am one of the very few people who have said rape happens in many different ways. But I will prepare my daughters to conduct themselves in a manner that will prevent at least one of those ways, being a teenage boy or man on the prowl for a drunk trashy teenage girl.


 
but thats the thing i wasnt drunk when my attacker chose me. it was my first drink all night. i didnt even get half way done with the drink before i felt sick and within 20 minutes of not drinking i had to head to the bathroom because i was falling all over the place like i hadn't seen a drink before. 

people aren't just raped because they are drunk and "trashy" they are raped because there attacker specifically chose them for a reason. nothing you say to your daughter can help her if someone is truly seeking her out to rape her. 

the only way to completely protect your child from rape would be to completely shelter them from the world and not let them experienece anything. again all the precautions you tell your daughter are great my parents did the same thing. but my fault for being raped was not for being drunk but because i was celebrating my accomplishment of finishing my marine rotc bootcamp. who better to show your more powerful to then someone who is joining the marine corps.


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## kitten_Val

MN Tigerstripes said:


> I'm sorry KV, I'm not trying to flip your words. Just not sure how else to take the highlighted statements above. If you're saying that someone is "asking" for something then you are blaming them for what happened.


MNT, I don't consider "asking" equal to "blaming" in my language but rather "bad deciding" (although reading through the discussion I agree that I should of phrase it differently, and I can see why some people read it as "blaming" or "deserving", which never even was in my mind, and found it offensive). 

When woman (an adult, I'm not talking about teenagers here) decides to take the risks and goes to the bad area in the eve perfectly knowing about the crime there (rape, robbery, even shooting/stabbing) it's a very bad decision on her side, but it's her decision. And if she happened to be raped (or robbed) it was something she could of easily avoid (and from the statistics I've seen while back there are many rapes like that one). Did she "deserve" that? Heck, no! Could she be blamed? No, because noone has a right to blame such, and the woman should get all support she can to go over it. Should the rapist or offender be punished? Absolutely. But again, it could be easily avoided, and only "I want it" may be screwed that woman's life .

Now the situation you described (or HorseMom, or kait) is completely different in my eyes (I'm not even saying that 18 yo is very young). That was a rape, when someone just used a situation to own advantage. That was not your grown-up decision to take risks. And I do feel incredibly sorry that some people on thread had such a horrible experience. I truly hope it'll be possible to heal with time.


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## MN Tigerstripes

Whisper22 said:


> You don't know me or the people I know, so don't presume to know the experiences I've had. I may not have shared my life story with all of you but that doesn't mean I don't have one. Get off your high horse and stop assuming you know the right way to handle everything. You don't. I am entitled to my opinion and should not be bashed for it, i know that is beyond people here.


I find it laughable that YOU are telling me to get off my high horse. Considering you're the one talking about "trashy" women and how they should be held accountable for their dress when they are raped. I've shared ONE incident that gives me direct insight into the situation.


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## SouthernTrails

.

OK folks, we have a little too much name calling and people are being condescending to each other.

There was a previous warning posted and it looked like the thread was getting back to normal, but it has again taken the wrong turn.

After further review it seems we have too much emotion. This Thread will most likely be closed permanently and some parts may be removed.

Many have shared opinions and even some hurtful secrets from their past, it is a shame some have taken to name calling and cannot have a debate without attacking each other on a personal level.

HF Team


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## Mike_User

Hello everyone,

Learning that some of our own members have been victims of rape was both saddening and angering. I can't imagine what it must be like to go through such a traumatic ordeal, and my heart goes out to those of you who have.

Donald, aka dbarabians, started a thread in the Talk to the Team forum and described how he found it helpful to share his experience with others who can relate. He suggested a thread not for the purpose of debating what qualifies as rape, but for members of our community who have lived through it to support one another.

For the sake of both our members' privacy (the thread is off limits to search engines and guests) and our younger members (the thread is off limits to members under 21), the Fellowship and Healing for Survivors of Rape thread has been started in the Saloon. Please pm me if you don't have access to the Saloon but are 21 or over and have been an active participant in the community for some time.

Best,
Mike


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