# can cremellos throw lethal white?



## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

As far as I understand it, ONLY homozygous frame results in Lethal White Syndrome. Even though the horses are cremello, they could be frame carriers, I think, in which case testing is smart. But testing for CREME, won't tell them diddly squat about potential LWS in future foals.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I am NOT the breeding or gene expert here, BUT, cremellos are rare. Chestnut (aka Sorrel), Brown, Bay comes next. The more common the horse color, the less likelihood of genetic abnormalities.
I would NOT breed this mare to a cremello stallion.


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

The cream gene has nothing to do with lethal white at all. Unless both of these horses are frame overos there is nothing to worry about. It would be a safe practice to test double dilutes for frame that come from frame carrying lines however. Frame can be sneaky on horses with more pigment, even more so when you can't see the markings clearly.

At least in stock horses, cremellos are pretty common. People breed for it so the next generation will be guaranteed to produce color. I wouldn't think it's very common to breed two double dilutes together as people generally like single dilutes better but there is no harm in it.


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## Southern Grace (Feb 15, 2013)

Exactly my thoughts Karliejaye, either horse could possibly carry overo, and you'd never know since they are cremellos, but since both are mostly foundation bred QH, overo is probably quite unlikely, and on the off chance it is there, testing for Cr wouldn't do them any good.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Cremello and frame are two completely different things. If you bred two frame n/n cremellos, you'd get another cremello. If they were cremello AND carried frame, then you'd have a 25% chance of having a lethal white.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Southern Grace, Lethal White isn't lethal because of an immune deficiency, it's lethal do the fact the homozygous frame horses do not have a fully developed digestion tract. They die from extreme colic like symptoms due to nonfunctioning bowels. That's why they don't normally live longer than 72 hours and the humane thing to do is euthanize them and spare them the pain.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Seems cruel to me to breed for a color and create a foal that dies a painful death. =/


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## JetdecksComet (Jun 11, 2013)

Corporal said:


> Seems cruel to me to breed for a color and create a foal that dies a painful death. =/


It doesn't have to be cruel because it's 100% avoidable. You simply spend $25 for a test and if the horse is negative, then you never have to worry. If the horse is positive, then you simply don't breed it to another positive horse. You will never get a LW if you follow that practice. It's only cruel if you intentionally breed two LW carriers to try to get "more chance for color". Cruel and stupid, because you don't increase your chance for color, you only increase your chance of a dead foal.

The problem is some people are ignorant of what causes it, which is ridiculous in this day and age. Most people have internet access and should try to educate themselves on any genetic disorders their breeding animals could carry. We have lots of tests for these things now, and more are being developed. If people say they can't afford to test, well, then, in my opinon, they really can't afford to breed in the first place.


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## Southern Grace (Feb 15, 2013)

JetdecksComet said:


> The problem is some people are ignorant of what causes it, which is ridiculous in this day and age. Most people have internet access and should try to educate themselves on any genetic disorders their breeding animals could carry.


So we're saying that this is the problem in this case, that the owners don't know what causes Lethal White. She said she did look it up on the internet, but then again, we all know how information gets on the internet... anyone and everyone puts it there, knowledgeable or not. So she may have read online that double creme causes Lethal White, but that doesn't mean it's true. I just wanted to check, because the claim that double creme could cause lethal white didn't sound right to me.

On the bright side, this woman is not the one breeding the mare, she's just selling a cremello filly, who's main draw is her color for breeding.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

But why do you need to test a horse that you want to BUY that is this color? My mare was sold as a yearling to the guy I bought her from bc she was breeding stock paint. He bred her 4x and she produced 4 flashy paint foals, and I think her wife is STILL angry that he sold her favorite horse.
I have ALWAYS believed that a good horse is any color at all and I really look down on breeding that could possibly produce harm in a foal.


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## Southern Grace (Feb 15, 2013)

Sorry NdAppy, that would be my brain taking a day off. I read Autosomal Genetic Disorder many years ago and my brain decided to twist that to Autoimmune Disease over the years! This goes with the many reasons I claim openly I don't know much about Lethal White.


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## JetdecksComet (Jun 11, 2013)

Corporal said:


> But why do you need to test a horse that you want to BUY that is this color?


 Say you own a LW positive stallion. You are looking at a filly to buy, but you don't want to produce a LW foal. You would test the filly prior to buying to ensure she's not a LW carrier. If not, you buy her, if she is then you pass, or you buy her and breed her to a stallion that's negative. You test first so you know what you're getting into.



Corporal said:


> My mare was sold as a yearling to the guy I bought her from bc she was breeding stock paint. He bred her 4x and she produced 4 flashy paint foals, and I think her wife is STILL angry that he sold her favorite horse.


Your mare either had a pinto genotype without the phenotype (meaning she didn't look like she way carrying the genetics to produce color, but she was) or she was bred to color producing stallions.



Corporal said:


> I have ALWAYS believed that a good horse is any color at all and I really look down on breeding that could possibly produce harm in a foal.


 Like I said, it doesn't have to harm a foal. It's totally avoidable. I, too, look down on anyone who hasn't bothered to educate themselves, and even more so on people who knowingly breed two LW positive horses.


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## JetdecksComet (Jun 11, 2013)

Southern Grace said:


> So we're saying that this is the problem in this case, that the owners don't know what causes Lethal White. She said she did look it up on the internet, but then again, we all know how information gets on the internet... anyone and everyone puts it there, knowledgeable or not. So she may have read online that double creme causes Lethal White, but that doesn't mean it's true. I just wanted to check, because the claim that double creme could cause lethal white didn't sound right to me.
> 
> On the bright side, this woman is not the one breeding the mare, she's just selling a cremello filly, who's main draw is her color for breeding.


 It would be better to perhaps point her in the direction (or have her point him in the direction) of a reputable site, such as UC Davis' testing site. If she doesn't educate herself so that she can educate him, she may lose the sale. From the sound of it, the horse is definitely going to come back Cr/Cr and if they think breeding a Cr/Cr to a Cr/Cr causes lethal white, then the guy won't buy the mare.


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## Southern Grace (Feb 15, 2013)

Corporal - I am not looking to buy this horse, nor do I breed. I was just talking to someone at my barn and this came up, it seemed odd to me, so I posted here just for my own knowledge. I, personally, don't think this 2-yo filly is a good match for her owners (her energy level, lack of training, and overall small size just aren't what they need), so I don't see any problem in them marketing her as a cremello, who could be bred in a few years when she matures completely, so that they don't have a horse they can't handle.

As for breeding horses that could carry frame. There is nothing wrong with the gene in a single n/O form. People test that their possible carrier has or doesn't have the gene to make sure they are breeding safely. Someone who is looking to purchase a broodmare to breed to a specific stallion (which is what this guy is doing) should, in fact, do any genetic tests to make sure she would be safe to breed before purchasing a horse that couldn't be bred to that stallion in fear of causing harm to a foal.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Southern Grace said:


> *I just wanted to check, because the claim that double creme could cause lethal white didn't sound right to me.*


Cremello is caused by two copies of the cream gene. Technically, they are double cream!  I think this person is confusing the frame overo gene and the cream gene. 

And totally agree about genetic testing before breeding, not just for lethal white, but for other common genetic disorders specific to the breeds you are looking at. I had Lilly tested for frame and then the 5 panel available through Animal Genetics before breeding. I don't think you can ever be too careful, especially when we have so much information and resources (like genetic testing facilities) at our disposal now.


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

Coronado is CrCr (perlino not cremello) and negative for LWO. He can be bred to CrCr mares and/or frame carrying mares with no ill effects. They are two completely separate and unrelated genes.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Southern Grace said:


> Is this just all new information for me, or is the owner just completely confused on genetic colors and mutations?


Owner is just very confused/ignorant about color genetics. Like others have said, lethal white has absolutely no connection to the cream gene.

I know you are not the owner of this filly, but if she were mine, I would discount that guy as a buyer immediately. Nothing screams "krazy kolor breeder" like wanting to buy a cremello mare _just_ to breed to a cremello stallion. I seriously doubt he gives any real consideration to conformation, talent, temperament, or ability....only color. IMHO, people like that are part of the very big problem of the extreme overabundance of crappy/mediocre quality horses on the market.


*steps off of soapbox* :lol:


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