# Something moves, Startle, Shy, Spin, Bolt, Stop, Turn, Look



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

The title describes a serious problem for me with Hondo. If I cannot figure out how to help him get over it, or at least reduce to a brace, I'm beginning to think it may only be a matter of time before I am seriously injured.

Hondo is not spooky as in at strange objects along the road or trail. Bulldozers, cars, barrels, etc in a different spot than before is noticed but not spooked at. Doesn't spook at rocks, stumps, etc. He is a good willing horse that will do anything that I ask of him.

But he will startle big time at anything unusual that moves. He has done this since he was first bought by the ranch. He was ridden for a year or two by a very experienced rider that was raised on the ranch. He was finally taken out of service when a huge spook at a gallop almost threw the rider. This particular rider has trained horses born on the ranch and ridden them to retirement so no novice at all.

The last startle/spook/spin unloaded me and even though I had a helmet on I rang my bell pretty well.

We were traveling down a ranch road at a slow walk that leads to a barn/corral about 1.5 miles away. Ridden the road many times. About midway I noticed a cow ahead off to the right a few feet in an unusual spot. Looked like a cow I had seen with a new calf hanging around the barn and was studying her to see if it was her. (yes looking at her) As we neared she shifted a little and Hondo apparently first saw her. After he shied, spun, and did his bolt I had that sick feeling that I was coming off.

As usual, he stopped within about 50 feet looking at me and the cow. I got up, walked to him, remounted, and we rode on. (i'm still sore)

This is a typical event that has happened about 8 or so times in the last year. I've made it to the ground on three of them. It was only this and one other time that I even knew what it was he spooked at. 

I am a novice rider. I know I need a better seat. I know I need lessons. Nearest lessons are 50 miles away and isn't going to happen. Hondo is my first horse and likely my last and if I can't learn how to "fix" this myself, it just ain't going to happen. 

Other than this, Hondo is the perfect horse, for me. He will do anything I ask. Herd cattle, sort in the pen, sidepass for opening/closing gates. Great feet in the rocks. Veritable mountain goat. I walk out in the herd to get him and he literally sticks his nose into the halter. Most of our rides are solo and go very well. And I've developed a deep bond to him.

Before anyone suggests getting rid of him and getting another horse, that's just not in the cards I'm holding. And if I could get another horse, which I can't at this time at least, I'd have to keep Hondo anyhow. I'm that bonded. I become very attached to animals in my care.

I've read Cherie's posts and other threads on similar problems. And out of desperation I ordered magnesium calming supplement just last night. Can't hurt, might help. Does for some, doesn't for others.

I thought, or was hoping, that after time he would perhaps change. It's been a year now and I don't see much if any change in his startle. Well, not true. He used to brace at flocks of birds, single birds, and even large butterflies sometimes. Seldom braces at little stuff anymore. So there has been improvement. But the big spin/bolt is still there. And he always stops within a few feet to see what it actually was that startled him.

I am willing to spend any amount of time with anything that has a promise of a possibility of working.

Hondo is 14, I am 73 and would like to ride him for the next ten years, or more.

I'll add that on most rides he appears a little paranoid wanting to look right and left as we travel at first. That behavior does seems to mostly dissipate within a mile or so.

Although it may be true that my riding style, confidence, etc may or may not be affecting him, please remember he has been this way long before I acquired him and was given up on by a rider that is absolutely fearless charging through the heavy brush and rocks. I was flat out told Hondo was not safe to ride at a gallop but he might be ok for me at a walk only.

Thanks, Harold


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## Drifting (Oct 26, 2011)

No advice, just following this post. This is how my 3 year old spooks, and I am not looking forward to the day he does it under saddle.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Just my opinion, but I think he's what I call napping. My guess is the only time he does this is when you are enjoying a slow, lazy ride and he doesn't have his mind on anything, so he naps….until something catches his eye and he suddenly "wakes up." In short, I think he is a horse that has to be kept busy.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I don't think what I'll say will bring much comfort. Please remember I have 7 years of limited experience with horses, and virtually all of it was on Mia. This thread discusses some of why Mia went to northern Arizona last Saturday:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/mias-last-day-bsms-580473/#post7464529

Mia is mostly a calm horse. Focused, but she doesn't have a mean or dishonest bone in her body. She hasn't bolted - run away with fear - in several years.

But she will startle, about every other ride. Depending on how hard, we might jump sideways 3-5 feet. Or hop forward. Mostly she spins, up to 720 degrees (90-180 is the most common). Hard and tight. Then she stops and seems a bit confused herself about why she did it. Sometimes I'll have seen something. Sometimes not.

Although riding her for 7 years taught me to ride defensively, it had no correlation to my tension. The hardest one was documented in this thread:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/my-first-emergency-dismount-mia-while-377705/#post4940497

At the time, I was maybe 1-2 seconds away from pulling my feet out of the stirrups because everything was so calm and relaxed. She was relaxed. We were strolling along in our little arena. Not a cloud in the sky. No noise. No animals.

Then BOOM. 5 seconds later, we were facing the opposite direction after doing 1.5 very hard circles. The saddle horn was parallel to the ground - a saddle fit issue, I eventually concluded. But I had to jump off her before things got ugly.

She was calm. I was calm. 5 seconds later, she stopped and showed no sign of fear...just concern that something felt odd on her back.

Anyways, by this spring, I had come to the conclusion it was just who Mia is. Someone (who I haven't seen post for a while) whose Dad grew up around horses and trained them competitively wrote me once and said her Dad has a horse like that...even with all the ranch work, a highly experienced & confident rider, he has one horse that sometimes startles HARD. Doesn't run away, but startles violently, without warning or any discernible reason. Not often, but has sometimes done it for years.

As of April, my plan was to simply try to ride out anything she tossed at me. That meant always riding defensively since I would never know WHEN somethig would happen - for 5 seconds.

Then our new farrier met Mia and fell in love with her. Couldn't look at her without smiling. He asked if he could try working with her, did so, and concluded the same thing I had - it was part of who she is. He doesn't care. He figures he can ride it out when it happens, and he loves the rest of her personality, build and breeding. He could offer her time on a ranch and the chance to be bred, and to be ridden by folks who have spent their lives riding. I could not. So she went north, and a 7 year old Arabian/Mustang gelding came south.

I'm sure that is small comfort to you, and it may not apply to Hondo. I have a reasonable amount of horse experience ON ONE HORSE. That obviously makes me biased and my comments of limited value. Please take them FWIW.

Equine vision: Horses can "see" almost 360 degrees, but they have a very small part of the eye with very dense receptors (up to 100x the rest of the eye). Their vision probably is close to a humans in that small area. For the rest, they see little but motion. That explains why a horse may suddenly "see" something that has been within their overall field of vision for some time.

Good luck! I wish I could offer better advice. BTW - I agree with the napping theory. It doesn't explain everything, but the majority of Mia's spooks came when she was relaxed and bored. We often said she spooked just to make things interesting...to her, if not to me!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Horse Poor said:


> Just my opinion, but I think he's what I call napping. My guess is the only time he does this is when you are enjoying a slow, lazy ride and he doesn't have his mind on anything, so he naps….until something catches his eye and he suddenly "wakes up." In short, I think he is a horse that has to be kept busy.


Some of the episodes did seem like napping. And being busy might help on some of them. Once, however, we were stopped while he drank from a stream. All of a sudden he did a 180 and went into the smoothest fastest run I had ever experienced. Just thought wow! And then easily pulled him up. He was nervous for a while after that. And he could have been napping at the stream but before that we were coming down a technical trail that did require his concentration.

I think there must have been some animal that was at the stream that finally decided to leave in a hurry and so did Hondo.

I often do enjoy just plodding along as if out for a leisurely walk and he may be zoning out. On the last episode I do believe if we had been hurrying or if he had even been nervously looking around he would have seen the cow a lot earlier and would have ignored it. Or maybe asked if I wanted to go get it.

It's a surprise factor and you may be right on some of the spin bolts.

I'll try to keep his head up and awake a little more if I think he is zoning. But he has bolted or braced for certain at times when his feet and mind were busy. Bracing I'm ok with. Bolting I'm not.

Thanks for the input.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

It isn't that you need his head up, etc., you just have to keep his attention. If you think he's napping, jiggle the reins, get him to focus, you get the idea. What happens is when a napping horse does wake up, they startle - which startles the rider, who unconsciously grips with their legs which tells the horse to move even before he knows what he is "looking at"…make sense???


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> I don't think what I'll say will bring much comfort.


Well, only that at times misery does enjoy a little company. Otherwise, your experience is very similar in many ways.

Read your two links. I run a loose 3/4 single cinch and have done a step off in rough terrain twice when the saddle went sideways. Both times Hondo froze until the saddle was righted. Easyboot glove come off hanging by the pastern strap in the rough stuff. No problem. Get off on the high side, right or left, pound it back on with a rock. Has no problem with that.

Haven't had the pleasure of the saddle slipping during a bolt, and don't want to either.

Sigh....he is such a good horse for me otherwise.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I am sorry, but at your age I would not be riding such an unreliable horse. you may want to keep him, but I think you are risking a broken bone. it is only a matter of time, and which bone.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Horse Poor said:


> It isn't that you need his head up, etc., you just have to keep his attention. If you think he's napping, jiggle the reins, get him to focus, you get the idea. What happens is when a napping horse does wake up, they startle - which startles the rider, who unconsciously grips with their legs which tells the horse to move even before he knows what he is "looking at"…make sense???


Yes makes a lot of sense for most, but not all, of the spin/bolts. Some of the times I'm sort of napping myself and he takes me by surprise also. And he is FAST! I have no knowledge of what I do but suspect you are spot on with tightening up. I just wish I'd become automatic with grabbing the pommel (endurance saddle) and I'd have a better chance of staying mounted.

But remember, I'm talking about 8 maybe 9 times in a full year. It is hard to stay vigilant for a month or two when there seems to be nothing to be vigilant about. But that may be where it is at.

Being very new and with my first love (hee) I admit to leaving probably way too much decision making to him. His stops have never been real good. The other day after when coming back from the corral/barn I stopped him every few minutes. At first, why are we stopping here? Is there a problem? Maybe we better get out of here. By the end of 1.5 miles he would stop at zero steps as calm as could be. And at times with only a movement toward asking for a stop.

So along with a commitment with taking over ALL decisions on the trail for a while, and making sure neither of us zone out, and feeding magnesium, I'm just looking for anything and everything I can do additionally to help.

When we first leave and he is acting a little nervous and paranoid I have began jiggling reins and/or bumping him a little to remind him I'm here and that does seem to reduce his worrying some, I guess by taking his attention off whatever he is worrying about.

But again, in your thinking, factor in the fact that he was like this with an experienced rider that never pokes along but only rides when there are cattle to find and roundup so that riding was always on a mission. And he even spooked while charging through nasty stuff at a gallop on that riders last ride with him.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Horse Poor said:


> My guess is the only time he does this is when you are enjoying a slow, lazy ride


BTW, this caused me to remember, he has done a few huge sideways shies and near bolts while being led with a halter.

Were it not for the halter and lead rope he likely would have headed for the South 40, but he is not a horse to try to take the lead rope away, or never has.

I think once was birds, don't have a clue on the others.

But still, I can't remember a shy or bolt when his head was up and ears alert.

He did freak out once when helping the neighbors and a herd of strange, light colored, possibly horse eating charolais cattle with riders behind them appeared over the horizon. He was a little nervous but fine until the rider in front of me with the dogs took off like a bat out of Hades. Even though there were two other riders with me it took a long long while to get him settled. Only when we finally got to the cattle and began working/driving them did he settle down. He never spooked during the entire ordeal but boy was he scared. The only way he would move slowly forward was with a bouncy jig similar to what I've seen on dressage, only faster. I was alternately bumping left and right on the reins to keep him from taking off. I don't know if that's a good thing to do under those circumstances, but I was doing anything that would work.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> I am sorry, but at your age I would not be riding such an unreliable horse. you may want to keep him, but I think you are risking a broken bone. it is only a matter of time, and which bone.


Yep, as stated in my opening paragraph, "I'm beginning to think it may only be a matter of time before I am seriously injured."

But at this point, I would need to give up horse back riding altogether, after just having really fallen (no pun intended) for it.

And that is the reason I have taken to wearing a helmet and spine protection. I don't wanna break bones. Been there done that after many years of competing on off road motorcycles. I'm in fairly good shape, have a lot of practice falling and normally do so fairly well, but, yep, at 73 that needs to be limited if not avoided all together.

But I love riding Hondo almost as much as life itself.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I assume you had his vision checked
I once had an Applaoosa stallion that was night blind, and I was not even aware of it. 
If I ran a reining pattern, somewhere that the hitching ring was outside, thus he had to go immediately from sunlight to shade, he would spook, until his vision compensated
I am just a few years younger than you, so am also at the point I no longer wish to hit the ground, not to mention double knee replacements.
Charlie is a spooky/reactive horse, and for the first year or so, I gav eher the benifit of the doubt, but now I expect her not to spook violently, whether it is a true spook of fright, or not
I expect her to have that trust in my leadership, to dampen that in born instinct to react first, and get the 'heck out of Dodge', regardless of me on her back.
Some might not agree with me, and that is fine. I now get after her for any violent attempt to spook, including well applied spurs, as I disengage the hips and take head away
All I can say, she seldom spooks anywhere as bad as she used to, and has learned more or less to mainly spook in place.
In the other post< i mentioned as to how we ran into a herd of wild horses last Sunday, with Charlie being in heat
Those wildies decided to gallop at max seed, back and froth across the clearing, with Mr Stud coming close to check us out
No faith alone in our connection, metaphysical or other wise, would have completely over ridden her hormones and natural drive to re produce
That is time you need some body control, to get that mind back to you , and thus prevent a wreak
Once past our 'discussion' place, Charlie calmed down and once more led the way on a loose rein, at a nice walk
Thus, Hondo, I think if you are not going to sell this horse, you are going to need to up the level of respect, so Hondo learns that it is never okay to react like that, as there will be 'negative' consequences, and thus learns to dampen his reactions, relying on your judgement


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'll use the word 'napping' although it has a different meaning in horse related terms in the UK
I have a horse that will do something similar - but in her case it happens when *I'm *the one that's napping. 
She isn't spooky and she's very willing, usually a go where you point me horse and she's 'been there, done it and got all the T-shirts' but she does need to have a rider that's always riding her - that doesn't mean you have to be tense or 'aggressive' you just cannot ever be a passenger
I have never figured it out but my husband thinks that she has a warped horsey sense of humour and does it to wake me up


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

What sort of tack do you use? Mia bolted - ran in blind fear - until I switched her to a curb bit. That made it possible to keep her in one place long enough to learn that most things were not scary. During our last 2 years together, I don't think she bolted once. Spin, but not run away. Bolts in the desert scared the living daylights out of me. Spins were never fun, but I could sit those out.

You said he is sure-footed. A saddle with a 5" cantle might make it easier to ride him out. I really liked Australian saddles for a spinning horse, although they are not much good for ranch work. The poleys (mickey mouse ears) would slam into my thighs when Mia would spin. That would then twist my hips around, keeping my pelvis aligned with her spine.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Even a well trained horse can have holes in his training. Yes, one can excuse a true fear spook, but never the follow through of spinning and bolting NEVER
For instance, last week three spruce grouse flew up right under Carmen's nose. She, she gave a slight spook, but never tried to either bolt or spin around.
You have to look at the problem as having two components. 
One is the spook, which at times can be justified, but the other part has to be dealt with, in order to make it a wrong choice.
If you rely on a strong bit, maybe it might get you through one or two times, but a horse can learn to run through any bit, eventually, soon as his pain tolerance gets higher
I believe whoa has to be so absolute, that the response to it becomes so ingrained, that even in a time of panic, the horse will automatically come back to you
I certainly would get after Hondo for spinning and trying to bolt, after a spook


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...If you rely on a strong bit, maybe it might get you through one or two times, but a horse can learn to run through any bit, eventually, soon as his pain tolerance gets higher...


Curb bits don't work thru pain or pressure amplified by leverage. If they did, simply pulling harder on a snaffle would have the same effect. They work by applying pressure to the bars and tongue regardless of the horse's head position, and are probably gentler on a horse with a stretched out head than a snaffle. If someone has a horse that tends to stretch its head out when excited, a curb bit remains mechanically effective in apply pressure to the bars and tongue. A snaffle, pulled back on a horse with a stretched out head, can bruise or cut the inside of the horse's cheeks, or put tremendous pressure on the tongue:










http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/kindest-bitting-strong-horse-581250/#post7474810

It proved to be an important tool in stopping Mia from bolting. She would still spin at odd times, but she didn't bolt ever again after about a month in a curb bit.​


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Pulling on a horse in any bit, is counter productive, but basic physics will tell you that pound for pound pressure of rein pressure is amplified by total length of shanks-simple lever principle
A snaffle was never intended to be used, pulling straight back with both reins
A curb, on the other hand, is used for increased finesse, through 'signal time;, which is provided by various things, as length of shanks, angle of shanks, loose jawed or fixed, purchase to total shank length, etc
A curb should be used for increased finesse, and never for control
Very good horsemen, when they have a problem horse, they go back to a snaffle to fix that problem, but they use that snaffle correctly, and put basics on a horse, so that you have body control, and not just reins to stop a horse that is bolting
Why do you think your horse ran through a snaffle and not a curb?


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Smilie said:


> Very good horsemen, when they have a problem horse, they go back to a snaffle to fix that problem...
> 
> Why do you think your horse ran through a snaffle and not a curb?


Not everyone is wild about snaffles. The basic snaffle with one joint doesn't really make sense, given the anatomy of the mouth. 

Some vets strongly dislike them for their own horses for that reason.

The fact that a horse can perform okay in one, is more a statement of that horse's temperament that the snaffle being a great tool. The answer to everything. Some are much more comfortable in a well fitting curb.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> Pulling on a horse in any bit, is counter productive, but basic physics will tell you that pound for pound pressure of rein pressure is amplified by total length of shanks-simple lever principle
> 
> ...Why do you think your horse ran through a snaffle and not a curb?


Basic physics would then say pulling with 150 lbs of pressure on a snaffle would be the same as pulling 50 lbs on a 3:1 levered curb. Yet my horse would respond to perhaps a 5 lb pull on a curb (thus 15 lbs of pressure total) yet not to every bit of strength I could muster on a snaffle (so 150-200 lbs).

So why did she respond to 15 lbs in the mouth with a curb and not 150+ in a snaffle? Like I wrote - the pressure from the curb was applied to the bars and tongue, while the snaffle was applying it to the molars. The tongue and the bars are more sensitive than the molars. Ever heard the saying "He has the bit in his teeth"? It dates back to the 1600s...

"_A snaffle was never intended to be used, pulling straight back with both reins_"

Of course it was. And is. It depends on how you train the horse. If your horse bolts down a trail, then pulling with one rein causes the horse to try to turn (unless it has been taught a one rein stop ad nauseum). Turning can be very bad in many places. So a horse should learn to respond to both reins.

The Cavalry manual described it well, as halting the forward movement of both hands, not a pulling back. And that is fine for a listening horse. When Mia was willing to listen, we rode like this:











Slack, pressure from the pinkie for turns and stops. But if a horse is bolting or starting that first lunge into a bolt - the best time to turn a bolt into a stop - then a pinkie on both reins does nothing. To turn a bolt into a stop in the first lunge with a snaffle requires a HARD pull with ONE rein, turning forward motion into a sharp turn. With a horse like Mia, that would be followed by 4-6 lunges forward, checked 4-6 times with another 180, until she would give up.

However, that fight to keep her in one place would get her very emotional, and confirm her fears. After all, she tried to bolt "_and then we did this horrible spinning, but golly, we lived in the end but that monster really MUST have been a monster_" - the struggle to stop a bolt in a snaffle reinforcing her fears. 

If she got into a bolt down a trail, turning was not an option. Very hard repeated jerks, as hard as I could make them, usually worked in time - but they hurt her mouth. A pulley rein stop, such as taught by Julie Goodnight and George Morris, also worked - but obviously hurt her mouth. George Morris, BTW, recommends going to a double twisted wire snaffle with a bolter. That is what happens when you think of a snaffle as the end all, and that a curb just for finesse.

But with a Billy Allen curb, the pressure went to where she was already trained to respond - to the bars and tongue. So 1-3 quick bumps, powered by my wrist or, at worst, my forearm, would stop her in her tracks. She had, BTW, 3 lessons in the arena to learn how a curb bit feels before trying trails.

When she dragged her leg into a cactus, and then kicked and covered her left rear leg in spines, three quick bumps with one hand stopped her...and I could dismount, pull the spines, and resume the ride. And unlike a snaffle, I've never seen her act like her mouth hurt after using a curb bit.

If the horse never sticks its nose out, then a curb has no real advantage over a snaffle. But if a horse stretches its head out, the curb will continue to apply pressure to where the horse has already been trained to respond. Unlike a snaffle, applying pressure will not crush the tongue like a french link, or crush the cheek between the molars and the bit - the nutcracker effect - with a single joint snaffle.

Once Mia learned to ride in a curb, she never bolted again. Ever. She would get startled sometimes, and either jump sideways or spin (usually 90-180), but then she would stop. I could then turn her to whatever direction made sense, and either ride her forward or deal with her fear - which was always genuine. She was a very honest horse.

Is a horse who sometimes jumps sideways a good horse in the Sonoran Desert? Nope. Will she be fine in open country? Probably. Her new owner knows about her, has spent time with her, and wants to breed her and ride her in northern Arizona. I think she'll do fine there...but I think a few sideways jumps remain in her future. Her new owner is OK with that, as I would be in some locations.

But after 3 learning sessions in an arena about curb bits, she never ran away with me again. Once she got calmer and learned that standing her ground made the scary thing go away, we could ride trails in a snaffle.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

For a short period of time I had a similar issue with my horse. He reacts first and thinks later. I spent a fair amount of time, getting him to turn around and walk past or touch an object. The weird thing is that once he touches an object he is okay with it. I also "got in his face" a time or two after a spook/bolt episode, which means the spook was short. I tried to stop his bolt within three strides and he had to turn into the direction he spun in. He also had a giant tell, he would bob his head to the left and spook right. As soon as I saw his tell I could correct him. I sort of figured he needed to be more afraid of me than anything that was on the ground. I think part of it is that the OP lets her horse get a "reward" the reward is running. I think the first step is getting that running out of the equation, than you can look at the objects that cause the spook.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I have one that was quite a spooky boy, genuine fear. He's learned that when I'm around his feet have to stay glued to the ground, that everything is ok. His spooks now are sudden tensing of his muscles but his feet stay put.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie, early on I was concerned about his vision and was looking to have it tested. Before that happened, I looked between his ears several times when he was looking off in the distance and many times saw a deer or cows on yonder hill that I could barely see and concluded from that his vision was fine.

And remember Smilie, he was ridden by one who trains all the horses on the ranch and who is at times fond of referring to herself as the "head *****" when it comes to the herd and who does not hesitate to maintain that position with the herd.

If getting tough with Hondo or getting after him would have stopped the spooking, I would not be riding him today. She loved his feet and his bulldozer qualities of going through, up, and over stuff.

My thoughts about pain and abject fear. If a horse has a leg dangling by threads he will run on three. If the panic is acute enough, fear trumps all pain.

Hondo does not startle and panic because he wants to. And it's over in 3 to 5 seconds whether I'm mounted or on the ground. He does not head for home. He stays with me and waits. He is such a good horse, otherwise I would not be so desperate to take the risks I have taken to figure it all out. I leave him ground tied for long periods when working on trail. He munches if there are munchables, otherwise he just stands there waiting.

bsms, I don't really want to get into the tack thing. It is definitely not a tack issue as he is the same with my tack as with the previous owner's tack. Suffice it to say that when the herd of then 22 horses were panicked and streaming on each side of us within 10 feet or less, Hondo stayed within a 10 foot circle. I don't know for certain what I did with the reins but mostly it was voice. He wanted to run but did not. If the tack I use worked for that, it should work for about anything, on Hondo.

It's not a bolt and run problem really. By the time I have myself collected, he mostly has already stopped, and as I said, whether I am on him or on the ground. If he were actually running away with me trying to control him, looking at tack might be an issue. But probably more a training issue as I like to think of the tack as a communication device, nothing more.

I REALLY WANT TO STRESS THAT HONDO HAS NEVER EVER ONCE RAN AWAY FROM ME. PERIOD.

rookie, see above, he doesn't run, he gets no reward out of spooking and I'm sure would also like to find a way around his involuntary startles, which is what they are, and as far as riding back and forth for stuff on the trail, no need. He spooks at nothing like that. I have never experienced him to spook or shy at a trail object. He notices stuff, but it's always ok. Notice the first two words of the thread title, Something Moves...........

Saddlebag, tensing or bracing I'm fine with. So how about the details of how he learned to stay glued to the ground when you are around during his experiences of genuine fear?

I really appreciate all the comments. Haven't done the likes yet but I will. Been gone to town getting Hondo's biscuits tested for worms. Hurray! Still clean a year later. (third test during that year) And mailing a pasture sample to Equi-Labs for trace mineral testing. It would be sooooo nice and simple if he were to be majorly deficient in magnesium. Hopes are not high but I gotta leave no rock unturned.

And BTW, almost all trainers, including Cherie, say that punishment flat does not work with a fearful horse.

And live brain scans show that most of the brains functions on animals are turned off during fear anyhow.

My hard back copy of Tom Dorrance's: True Unity-Willing Comunnication Between Horse and Human came in the mail today.

I'll be burying myself in that book now. I've heard so much about him from so many.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

boots said:


> Not everyone is wild about snaffles. The basic snaffle with one joint doesn't really make sense, given the anatomy of the mouth.
> 
> Some vets strongly dislike them for their own horses for that reason.
> 
> The fact that a horse can perform okay in one, is more a statement of that horse's temperament that the snaffle being a great tool. The answer to everything. Some are much more comfortable in a well fitting curb.


Snaffles, esp the single jointed snaffle gets a bad rap from people that don't use it correctly, adjust it incorrectly, ride with strong constant contact.
Yup, adjust it with a few wrinkles in the corner of the mouth, then use strong contact and you have a potencial for problems, like suing any bit or equipement incorrectly
I wasn't born yesterday, have taken clinics with great trainers in disciplines from working cowhorse, reining, western pleasure, ect, and know what, those programs are based on starting a horse in a snaffle, and alternating at times with a bosal.
Bob Avila, who I think is a pretty good source of information, having won Worlds greatest Horseman twice, plus many other awards, and who wrote a series on Bitology, states that he found 98% of horses like the single jointed snaffle, that he has won hundreds of thousands of dollars showing with that bit, and that it is the bit he goes back to, even on his horses up in a curb, to either teach anew maneuver or fix a little training glitch
I myself have started over 100 horses, using that snaffle, and all went on to being great bridle horses. 
Even on the horses that are senior horses and that I show in a curb, I will often trail ride ina snaffle


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hi Hondo

I was going by your thread heading:
*Something moves, Startle, Shy, Spin, Bolt, Stop, Turn, Look*

You did have that word 'bolt', LOL!
So, he spooks, spins around, jumps ahead and then stops, versus continuing to 'bolt'. By that time you are sometimes 'planted', I gather.
By getting after him, I don't mean you need to be abusive, bUT, at the same time, you have to let him know that spinning is not an acceptable follow up of a true scare spook. Horses Can learn to dampen their automatic in born flight response, thus thump his shoulders back around in the direction you were going, before that spook. 
Yes, a very good rider might have trained him, one that stays on, but that does not mean he was trained in such a manner to prevent him from ever having that kind of habit started in the first place. There are some people that 'enjoy' riding a horse that spooks hard or bucks,or takes off as soon as a foot is in one stirrup, etc to show how well they ride!
My one friend's husband , for instance, does not mind a horse that bucks, and likes to 'cowboy ; the horse
They bought a young horse from my other friend, that had bred to our stallion, and that first friend showed this young horse and trail rode him, before selling him to friend number 2.
Friend number 2's husband started to use this horse on hunting trips and got him bucking. In fact, I heard that some people in the camp ground, got up early, just to see him buck that horse out, before riding off!
Not saying that this is the case here, but that 'b' just might have never tried to fix Hondo, as she had no trouble staying on, and thus that kind of spook reaction has become a habit, Horses are creatures of habit, after all !
The entire idea of foundation training, is to have the horse learn to trust you as their leader, and thus trust you to 'look out for the lions', so they don't have to
Horses thus trained, though they still give a startle
reaction, learn to control that fright/flight response to spooking in place
A green horse might very well give that kind of reaction, like Hondo, but by the time I ride that horse, so he is a senior horse, that horse has learned to be way less reactive and spook in place
If I had a horse his age, still reacting like that, I would consider that either the horse has a poor mind or I did not get the job done, far as training
You speak of trust, metaphysical connection, and what does that all mean, if the horse still does not feel confident in your leadership?
Even if he is a great horse the rest of the time, it will only be a matter of time until you get seriously hurt, unless you get that reaction fixed
Well, there is also the possibility that you will become very confident sitting that spook and spin, so addressing that problem will be a mote point!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSM,Boots, regarding a snaffle bit, taken from John Lyons book, communicating
with cues
"if you pull back with both reins, you give the horse something to lean against , and away to increase speed.You'll have a stiff necked unresponsive horse
tHAT'S WHY, when using a snaffle bit, the more out of control a horse is, the more imperative it is that you use one rein to control him. One rein is just held fixed, and the other to pull, never both at once.
On the snaffle bit itself
John, speaking of his venture in tack stores:
"I bypass everything but a broken-mouth snaffle, (he uses full cheek ) because to me it represents the tool that can communicate best with the horse and with the least discomfort"

Therefore, before you condemn that single jointed snaffle, perhaps learn by some great horsemen , how to use it correctly!


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Harold, I don't think Hondo is intentionally trying to do a here-eat-this-instead dump and run sacrifice of you (to those lions we are supposed to be on the lookout for) so I think there's hope for ya' both. 

Good luck...


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## Liligirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Does your horse know how to one rein? 

I have an anxious mare who will turn and bolt at trouble. Well I should say used to as she has not done it for some time now (knock on wood) This is how I keep it under control.

Most important is teaching you both to one rein stop! Practice it until it is your automatic reaction to a spook. Stop the bolt before it starts 

Secondly don't just go for a ride. I have found that transitioning my mare between walk/trot/halt and backing up actually helps to keep her focus on you and not what is around you.

Now I am not suggesting you do this at all. But to those suggesting a different bit, this will not fix a hole in training. I ride my mare in a rope halter. I transitioned her to it while working on our one rein stop as I built up my trust in her. Iv never had it make any difference in controlling a situation as to if I'm in a bit or a rope halter. Teach you both to one rein and it will not matter what is in your horses mouth.

Also do you spend time with your horse on the ground grooming and ground work? My girl spooks 99% less if I get out and do something with her daily. It does matter if I ride her or not, just spending time with her is enough. I have a toddler so I might only ride out once a week.

Lastly this may be learned behaviour. One time when my mare dropped me she did it by dropping her shoulder and then spinning. I was in La La land at the time and just toppled off. You know what she did the next time she did not want to go out, she spooked and dropped the shoulder. That time she got a firm smack on the butt instead. She tried dropping the shoulder only once more..


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I am confused walk us through exactly what happens. In my mind, what I see happening is that Hondo sees something, he perks up his ears ears and he tenses, it moves, he jumps one direction, spins and runs a few strides and than settles with or without your involvement. Does he always spin one direction over another? 

I don't buy the panic thing because the things moving are probably deer. If Hondo has lived outside in the area you ride in and thus should be comfortable around deer and it has worked cattle so things moving should not be an issue. Either way his reaction is an over reaction and to correct it I think you have to stop it/correct it at the spin before he gets to the bolt and stop section.

I hate deer because they go from standing to moving suddenly and it can startled a lot of horses. If you go for a ride at dusk in a field than Hondo might have the chance to see the deer and watch them move. You could set him up and get him in a situation where you know he is going to do this to correct him.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

A bit harsh, Smilie. I have a 22-year old Shire-cross mare, trained to the nines, who's still got a lightning-quick whirlaway spook. You can be moseying along, relaxed, one second, and facing the opposite direction the next. She only does it a few times per year (most recently at a guy who had been hiding in the bushes for a pee suddenly appearing) and if she does take off, she comes back easily after a few strides. I find it reassuring; she's still as spry at 22 as she was at 8. When she does it, I gather her back up and continue on as before, not making a big deal out of it. 

Some things can help with spooking, like riding the horse positively forward and making sure it's always in front of your leg, but if they are going to do that, they do. If you feel it becoming tense, it's likely to drop behind your leg, and that's the time to put leg on and make it go more forward. But some of them are perfectly capable of doing a massive spook with no warning. It's easy to write, 'learn to stick it out,' but it takes years and a few falls to develop the velcro seat.


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## ducky123 (May 27, 2014)

My walker (enter brag mode: Grand Champion at the local clubs) spooked at EVERYTHING when I got him. "Despooking" was my primary training goal for an entire season. 

It's a lot easier if you have help so that spooky stuff can be presented at the edge of the horse's "concern zone". Your job is to keep the horse engaged as the spooky stuff gets closer and moves around. 

For example, friend has umbrella and at the distance where horse is concerned, you are keeping the horse engaged by moving him and changing directions (under saddle or on the ground). Then friend twirls the umbrella and repeat. Move closer and repeat. Then repeat and repeat and repeat. (might as well repeat again.) 

Besides umbrellas, you can wave blankets, tarps, flags, plastic bags, or whatever else you can find. If it's something like trailers or other large immobile objects that causes a spook, you bring the horse to the edge of concern, work from there and then move the horse closer instead of moving the immovable scary thing.

If something is SUPER DUPER scary, go the edge of concern and move the scary thing away from the horse. Then comes the repeat ad nauseum approach and retreat routine.

Ears are one vital clue as you go. If ears are always pointed at scary item, he's ignoring you. Time to move the horse and ears will tell you when he is paying attention to you. Don't let the horse relax until you see some sign that the horse is relaxing and/or paying attention to you.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Spooking in place is what I've referred to as "bracing", the term I learned here at the ranch. Hondo used to do that quite a bit at small things but hardly ever anymore. He'll still do a sideways shy now and then but my seat is ok for that. Not much more than a "spook in place".

Not long ago two riders were waiting for me in the truck and trailer and when I came around a corner and Hondo saw one rider, the trailer, and the dogs he shied sideways a good bit. It was the rider and dogs he travels with often and the trailer he rides in. He just startled. We loaded up and went on to our starting place for the cattle search.

He was just startled. Over in two seconds. I'll admit to rather enjoying the small shies sometimes. I comment that he's training me for riding greenbroke. A decent rider could also ride out his bigger spooks and I even ride most of those out. It's the others I'm concerned about.

And again, there is no advance notice from him on tensing up. If there was, I think I'd be ok. It just happens so lightening quick. I have good reaction times but his reaction time beats mine.

It may be a trust issue but I really don't think so. I bring him in daily from the pasture to spend time in my yard/pen. I spend quite a bit of time "talking" to him, grooming him, and sometimes just sitting and watching him eat. I keep a lawn chair over by his manger.

If he didn't trust me to some degree, I'd think he would head for Jone's when I was on the ground.

His actions seem to be really involuntary. And by the time they become voluntary, he volunteers to stop. He is just so darn fast. None have lasted over 3 seconds max.

And that worries me. If it is truly involuntary, I wonder if anything can ever be done about it. If someone sneaks up behind a person and breaks an aired up paper bag, most people will jump. They can't help it. That'd be spooking in place. But some people might move a ways before they turned to look to see what happened. That's what Hondo does.

Any training that is done needs to address the time between the micro second spook in place and the time where it transitions into a shy, spin, 'and a short 50 foot run stop turn look.

I have actually just recently started playing with the one rein stop and found it does work really well. "IF" I could do that in the micro second when the brace first happens, it just might help. Big if there. I'll try to affix that into my mind and do some visualizations on that to maybe get some firing circuits in my brain trained or at least started. I have landed on my right side each of the three get offs so he seems to turn to the left. I'll concentrate on my right rein. If I could do that, he just might be able to learn to interrupt his shy/spin before it happens.

Hondo has only spooked at deer once that I know of. We were following another rider and three deer jumped out of the bushes to our right. Hondo took about 3-4 quick bracing like steps forward then stopped to watch the deer ascending the hillside. All the spins have been something different or else I didn't see the source.

Interesting thing happened with the entire herd a while back, including Hondo who was with his herd at the time. About 15 riders were doing a 5 day pre-ride for a yearly event that goes through the ranch. The herd was grazing a few hundred yards from them when they came into view. The entire herd went totally bananas. They'd stampede this way, and then that way. Seemed like they couldn't decide which way was to safety. Safety from 15 horses with riders? Maybe the entire herd is magnesium deficient or is this typical herd behavior? While the riders turned off down a trail the herd huddled together nervously watching them until gone. I just happened to be going out for Hondo or would not have witnessed it.

I have actually been musing about setting up a remote controlled scary device along the trail somewhere for training. If I'm prepared for it happening, I do think I could ride out anything he does plus I would be prepared to interrupt his spin before it happened. I have been told a million times here at the ranch that you always have to be ready but it's hard to really do that day after day without riding tense. And when I ride tense Hondo knows it. Or maybe I'll just set up some scary stationary objects ahead of time in an unexpected location. Good idea. I will try that. I took him on daily walks for three months with dishes of food planted along the trail. I have a small motorcycle still that I could use to re-position the scary stuff each day. One, two miles away, whatever.

I'm getting a bunch of good stuff to put together. Making sure he doesn't zone out. Making sure his mind is on me and aware at all times I'm on his back. Removing him from the decision making that I have allowed. Keeping myself awake but not tight and focusing on reaction with that one rein. And planting boogers on the trail where I know and he doesn't. There may be light at the end of this tunnel.

Riding Hondo is the most important thing in my life at this particular time.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

You have two things to work with on the 'glued to you' training
1. the horse has to have complete trust in you as the leader it relies on - so when the scary thing happens being close to you is the safest place to be. 
If you say stay put then the horse does - if you say run then you both get the heck out of there ASAP!!!
2. The horse never learns to make the decision to run away when it gets spooked - it can jump on the spot but no more and that comes from you being alert 100% of the time so the moment the horse moves you're right on it and telling it not to run


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> BSM,Boots, regarding a snaffle bit, taken from John Lyons book, communicating
> with cues
> "if you pull back with both reins, you give the horse something to lean against , and away to increase speed.You'll have a stiff necked unresponsive horse
> tHAT'S WHY, when using a snaffle bit, the more out of control a horse is, the more imperative it is that you use one rein to control him...
> ...


Smilie - and off topic for almost everyone else:

1 - I've got several books by John Lyons, but I do not consider him the last word in horses, and certainly not in bits. He loves a single joint, full cheek snaffle. Recommends it for everything. He also believes you never use both reins at once, which would make a half-halt awkward. In fact, most of what he says about bits is contradicted by virtually every other book I've read, and by my own experience with horses. I'm no world expert, but I suspect I've done more research on bits and bitting than many riding experts have. Quite a few people who can ride circles around me have never looked at an X-ray of a bit in the mouth...

2 - I've never condemned a single joint snaffle. The two bits getting the most use on Mia just before I traded her were the Billy Allen Curb and a single-joint D-ring. Single joints put more pressure on the bars. Double joints put more pressure on the tongue. A single joint snaffle will almost never poke the roof of the mouth.

3 - But snaffles are not the perfect bit for all horses. The more likely your horse is to stick out its nose, the less perfect a snaffle is. Once the horse stretches its nose out, the single joint snaffle applies pressure against the molars, which is easy for the horse to ignore. Worse, it can catch the cheek between the metal and the molars, crushing the cheek and bruising or cutting the inside of the cheek high up in the mouth. That is the "Nutcracker Effect" - nutcrackers crush nuts, they do not poke them!

A double joint snaffle, used when the horse stretches out its head, abuses the tongue - as shown in the X-ray I think I posted.

4 - Just as a horse can be trained to a one rein stop, it can be trained to a two rein stop. They are CUES. A fully trained horse will have made so many stops in response to the CUE that it will do so instinctively even if scared because the mind is no longer involved. It becomes "muscle memory", requiring no conscious thought.

5 - After thousands of stops in a curb, Mia stopped fine in a snaffle. Single joint, double joint, Waterford, Mullen - once she learned to obey instead of evade, she learned through lots of repetition to obey regardless of the bit. After nearly 3 years, she was becoming like Trooper - didn't care what bit was in her mouth as long as you didn't use it too often!

6 - Mia did not bolt - run away with fear - after a couple of months using a curb bit. She simply gave it up. She then never bolted again. 

------------------------------------------------------------

For the OP: Some horses, I think, will always be jumpy. That was my conclusion after 7 years with Mia: she would always jump sideways or spin sometimes. Maybe I would know why, maybe not. It happened far less often, maybe once a month instead of 15 times a ride...but I figured I needed to accept that she would always startle sometimes.

"_His actions seem to be really involuntary. And by the time they become voluntary, he volunteers to stop. He is just so darn fast_."

Great description of Mia (apart from gender).

The horse I traded for her is half her age and 10 times her calmness, by nature. Like Trooper, I don't see him ever bolting blindly or jumping sideways. He is just a very different horse, and Mia would never - at least with me riding her - get to his level of 'horse sense'.

But if training by a pro isn't an option, and swapping horses isn't an option, then your best bet may be to look to your saddle and riding position. Some saddles are easier to stay in when a horse spins. I assume a barrel racing saddle would be good. I know an Australian stock saddle works well for that - mine saved me from coming off many times.

Larry Trocha has an online video course "Groom, Saddle & Ride – Online". It is about $100, and some of it is very basic, but it has lots of ideas that might help to get Hondo paying more attention to you...but some horses will still startle, regardless. Mia may have startled 50 times less after 7 years, but she never fully gave it up. The guy who took her is 26 and doesn't care. 

There are not many good books on western riding. You might try posting some pictures of yourself riding, and ask for a critique. I like a forward seat for a spin, and Gen Harry Chamberlin wrote a great book on it: http://www.amazon.com/Riding-School...4&sr=8-1&keywords=riding+and+schooling+horses


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

jaydee, I would very much like for Hondo to think being with me is the safest place he could be. I just don't know what I can do beyond what I am doing. Suggestions?

I will add this. A while back we met some neighbors for a joint roundup. Their dogs and ours got into a scuffle when meeting. One of the neighbors shouted, which I didn't hear, "I'm gonna shoot!" And then fired. He was about ten feet from me. Hondo shied about three feet. A couple of the horses went farther. I thought that was pretty good for a really BIG paper bag. The dogs scattered and were fine after that.

bsms, I could look at a deeper saddle. I've also thought about bucking bump things as the pommel does not have much to get under.

A different saddle could be hard to find as Hondo has a really short area between his scapula and 18th. I actually cut and reformed the tree at the rear to keep it off his lumbar. He seems much happier with it with a more spirited walk. In the beginning I thought you just threw a saddle on any horse and went riding. I think that no more.

I have ignored this whole problem for the first year hoping it would self resolve. Now that I'm at least addressing it maybe I can get something going. Time will tell.......

Sounds like you've done your homework on bits! Hopefully without starting anything, I will say that I don't use a bit. Hondo neck reins so well that once I got the reins crossed under his neck and I didn't even notice for an hour or more and only then when I dismounted. I think he was probably laughing at me and humoring me. Maybe that's why he doesn't trust me during spooks..........

I have not noticed any difference in his behavior riding with or without a bit, except when putting on the bridle. He helps me get the bitless on.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hi Hondo, staying on topic, thus leave my snaffle bit comments on that post!
I'm not a John Lyons followerer, per say, but I did wind up with his first two copies in his series, "communicating with Cues'
The first book in the series, was a 'free introductory copy', and I got the second one, due to the usual failure to communicate your cancelling a memebership , fast enough, LOL

Anyway, Lyons does have some very good basic problem solving techniques, and volume two would be a good investment for you
He states that it is okay for a horse to be afraid, but it is not okay to flee
He thus goes into teaching a horse to face a scare, and learn to spook in place.
His basic summary of your situation is:

'Just like we can't expect ourselves to never feel fear, we can't ask our horse to never be afraid. However, we can teach him what to do when be becomes afraid'

The artical is too long to post here, but basically the horse is taught to face anything he is afraid of, by increments in a specific training method, with ceratin basics on him, such as knowing inside and outside turns, in a round pen, ect
He learns that it is okay to be afraid, but it is not okay to move his feet. He thus learns to spook in face, always facing that scary object
You are quite right that bits and other force, are not the answer. It is a mental conditioning.
Anyway, I would suggest you get vol 2 in that series, as I believe it will help you and Hondo

Bits don't control horses, and if you use that approach, you are applying bandaid, that sooner than later, will fall off!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Is that John Lyons Semantics voulume 2? Forget this. Wrong one.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BMS
we can discuss bits in the other thread.
The age old fundation that many great trainers believe in, is that if you have aproblem with ahorse, you don't go to a stronger bit, you retain that horse, fixing holes.
Anyway, not going further off topic here-and lets talk bits elsewhere, as it is not a problem in Hondo's case at all.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Is that John Lyons Semantics voulume 2?



I don't know if that book has different titles?
I have the book sitting in front of me, so will just write what I see



Communicating With Cues:
The Rider's Guide To Training and Problem Solving 
 part 11


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Wrong John Lyons. I've got his site now. Thanks.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

It would be the second book in this series

http://www.amazon.com/Communicating-Cues-Training-Problem-Solving/dp/1879620553


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> ...A different saddle could be hard to find as Hondo has a really short area between his scapula and 18th. I actually cut and reformed the tree at the rear to keep it off his lumbar. He seems much happier with it with a more spirited walk
> 
> ...Hopefully without starting anything, I will say that I don't use a bit. Hondo neck reins so well that once I got the reins crossed under his neck and I didn't even notice for an hour or more....
> 
> I have not noticed any difference in his behavior riding with or without a bit, except when putting on the bridle. He helps me get the bitless on.


This web site discusses western saddles and putting weight on the lumbar area:

The problems with too-short bars

All western saddles extend over the loin

Can the loin of the horse carry weight?

When I first switched to a western saddle, I kept the forward seat I had used English/Australian. Over time, I realized I got more even sweat marks and a more relaxed horse accepting the western saddle tree and letting it handle weight - some to the rear.

The horse I traded for Mia has mostly been ridden in a sidepull. That includes 30 mile rides. I was told he did fine in it accept he didn't always stop well without a bit. When I tried him yesterday using a D-ring snaffle, his neck was stiff as a board with the bit...but almost equally stiff in my sidepull. I prefer bits and will try to teach him to accept them. But each horse is different. "Brand" is a level headed horse with good balance. I think I could get away with riding him today in the desert bitless. A bit, right now, would make him MORE nervous, not less. Long term, I think he might do very well in a curb bit, ridden with the goal of never using the bit...:wink:...but I'm also tempted to buy a good leather sidepull and just try that. Brand (or Brandy or Brando or Branded) might do great for my purposes in something like this:








​


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Order placed. Believe it or not, $00.02 on Amazon with $3.99 shipping.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms, o dear! Is there ANY topic relating to horses that is not controversial? I have been on that site a lot but did not read that part. I will be searching for a discussion between opposing experts on this topic. AFTER my studies on Hondo's fear responses.

But at the moment, I'm having a hard time thinking a saddle just right for a 16hh horse would be ok for my 14.0hh Hondo.

I have read that the Western saddle can fit right up to the scapula as it is flared where English needs to be back 2 inches. And I got the same idea from "somewhere" about the rear. I have the flare now starting at his 18th but the flat portion stops there at the 18th.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

it sounds like Hondo spooks more from sight than sound. 
think about this, when he's had the "stop, drop, spin and dash" type spooks, on which side (in which eye) was the scary thing? in which direction did he spin? is it always the same?


here's my wild idea; try riding him blindfolded for a bit. maybe in the round pen, or ? it might be an interesting experience to see how he moves when he cannot see. also, if you always handle him on the left, start mixing that up so he become balanced see things from both sides, and work with him by making freequent, random movements/noises,  when you are back in the edge of his vision. sort of desensitizing . (not within kicking range, though)


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> it sounds like Hondo spooks more from sight than sound.
> think about this, when he's had the "stop, drop, spin and dash" type spooks, on which side (in which eye) was the scary thing? in which direction did he spin? is it always the same?
> 
> 
> here's my wild idea; try riding him blindfolded for a bit. maybe in the round pen, or ? it might be an interesting experience to see how he moves when he cannot see. also, if you always handle him on the left, start mixing that up so he become balanced see things from both sides, and work with him by making freequent, random movements/noises, when you are back in the edge of his vision. sort of desensitizing . (not within kicking range, though)


Not from sight really at all, but from unexpected movement. Movement seems to be the trigger. Then when he sees what it is, he's ok.

I know I've always fallen on my right shoulder, which suggest a left spin, but I'm not sure for the ones where I kept my seat.

I'll post/paste something I just posted in a PM. It is the direction I intend to work on.

Begin paste:

I'd like to share a couple of sentences from Tom Dorrance's True Unity-Willing comunication between horse and human:

Quote: "I don't mean I'm trying to get everything completed, but to get enough there to where if the horse gets troubled he will come to me; or to where I can get him to come to me for security or cover. Without that foundation I feel very insecure with a horse."

I just thought WOW! If Tom Dorrance feels insecure without that, then why should I feel secure without it?

I'm not sure exactly how I may go about it, but it's the direction I hope to go.

Edit: The sentence just before that quote goes: Some people ride a horse as long as the horse lives and they never get what I try to get just as early as I can, for a foundation.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Hondo said:


> jaydee, I would very much like for Hondo to think being with me is the safest place he could be. I just don't know what I can do beyond what I am doing. Suggestions?


Sometimes you are doing the right thing - it just takes longer to get to where you want to be than you expect.
There's this tendency to want to make all horses 'cookie cutter' like they all dropped out of the same mold but they aren't and they don't
We've had our most recent horse for nearly a year now and although we can ride her OK she's only just beginning to feel like 'our horse' in terms of how she feels about us - but she'd been moved from place to place, person to person for long while before we got her so I think that made her more insecure and less inclined to develop a bond with someone. 

I wonder how tense you are about this spooking thing?
That won't help.

I don't understand what the John Lyons thing and single jointed snaffles is all about - does he not know that people in Europe have been riding low level dressage, jumping, hunting and show horses in those bits 'forever'?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

jaydee said:


> Sometimes you are doing the right thing - it just takes longer to get to where you want to be than you expect.
> I wonder how tense you are about this spooking thing?
> That won't help.


Well, I'm pretty sure I'm not tense before the spook in place. But since it happens like the proverbial paper bag bursting behind me, I be willing to bet a fair amount that I do tense up then.

In thinking about that today, it is entirely possible that I am actually telling him, (from his viewpoint and understanding), "It's trying to get us, let's get outta here now! Run!".

Dunno, but I did discover the next day that he is super sensitive to my body movements.

I decided to work on his stops from a walk at random places rather than places he would normally expect it. First time he looked up and around, didn't want to stop, seemed to say, is there a problem around here. Stayed for about 20 seconds and on down the road.

Second stop about the same but better.

Third stop, the trailing foot came to rest beside the leading foot. Head straight not looking around.

This went on for about three more stops.

Then when I decided to do another, HE STOPPED! Just like that. Without me asking, or that (I) could tell. I actually wondered what he stopped for. Kissed and went on down the road. 

On down the road I decided to do yet another stop and same thing. The thought passed through my mind, Harold, you may have a lot more horse here than you ever could have dreamed of. He again came to an abrupt at attention stop the second I even thought about it. It actually freaked me a little as the second time I knew it was not an accident.

I thought about this today when Tom Dorrance said to think of a picture in your head of what you want him to do before you ask. 

So I'm getting a whole bunch of ideas to work on. It's the beginning of my second year with him when I used the 1% per day for 100 days concept just to lead him away from the herd without him being frightened the first year.

So I've got my work cut out. But he is a good horse and apparently learns very fast as the experiment with stopping seemed to indicate.

I think I have a plan............


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Ok, so Harold, any chance that you are accidently cuing him for a rollback?
We sold a horse once, that I has shown in reining and western riding, plus cattle events. He was very responsive to any light leg aids
The woman that bought him, had her son in lessons with some English trainer, so I thought the situation would work
About a week or so later, that woman called and said that Classy would not stay on the rail, and would also suddenly do a 'little rear' and reverse directions
So, we went out there (my son and I ) to see what was going on. They were accidently cueing Cassy for a roll back
My son got on him, and the horse rode fine, and the mother said that is the best that they had seen the horse go.
We suggested that they put their son in lessons with someone that knew how a western horse, esp in some upper performance event is trained, and also to stop hanging on the horse';s mouth!

Hondo, if you read that book when you get it, I think your problem and solution will become clear. Any horse can spook and have atrue fright, and you will never change that, but what that book will explain,is, that while it is okay to be afraid, it is not okay to spin away from something fearful, and explains how to go about teaching a horse to face whatever scared him, and to spook in place
If you go to that thread on bits, I posted some videos, which also explain how to get that softness and have a horse face whatever he is afraid of, versus trying to spin or bolt


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Sometimes you are doing the right thing - it just takes longer to get to where you want to be than you expect.
> There's this tendency to want to make all horses 'cookie cutter' like they all dropped out of the same mold but they aren't and they don't
> We've had our most recent horse for nearly a year now and although we can ride her OK she's only just beginning to feel like 'our horse' in terms of how she feels about us - but she'd been moved from place to place, person to person for long while before we got her so I think that made her more insecure and less inclined to develop a bond with someone.
> 
> ...


Well, Jaydee, I guess you would need to actually read that book!
The snaffle point is, that is the bit what you ride with in order to fix a problem. It has absolutely nothing to do with what you ride with jumping, playing polo, running barrels or a reining pattern, etc, etc-The snaffle is the bit advised for simple retraining a problem horse, using the same mentality you do, when starting a colt 
You do not start a colt in any leverage devise, like a curb bit

Far as teaching a horse to spook in place, that is explained in that book, and what this horse needs. It teaches ahorse to face what he is scared of, versus spinning round and trying to leave-in essence, the horse learns to spook in place
If you wish to know how a horse is taught that,progressively, you will need to read that book
I am not a die hard John Lyons fan, but he explains that concept as good as anyone, but certainly is not the only one working on that same principle
-in essence, it is okay to be afraid, but not to move the feet, esp in the opposite direction
If you go to the bit thread, I posted just three videos that show the same basic concept, and all of the horses are being schooled in a snaffle, because that bit is designed for direct signal and for using two hands on 
the reins
It does not mean you don't go to a curb for running games, ect, where you need that extra ;'bit of bit' when the adrenaline gets going, just that you don't go to a curb to fix a basic problem, and a horse that bolts, spins, is stiff in the neck , has holes.
He needs to go back to 'kindergarten', and the snaffle is the kindergarden bit


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSms, I wish you luck with your new horse, and there certainly is nothing wrong with riding bittless, but I do see a red flag
A horse should not be stiff.A horse being stiff, plus labeled as not 'liking bits', some basics are missing
Most horse declared not to like bits, unless they have been abused with a bit, or have some mouth abnormality, are in reality, un educated to a bit, and being 'stiff, makes me suspect this is a horse might not been taught a firm foundation 
A good start on a horse, has that horse moving off your legs, giving in his face and poll, a good hind end stop, shoulder control
Don't get me wrong, I think a sidepull is a great alternative for starting horses and used to use it all the time,before moving on to a snaffle, until I found out that skipping the side pull stage made no difference in the end, far as how that colt rode after a year
Most young horses learn the concept of guiding with a sidepull, halter or bosal very easily, afterall, those devises use the same pressure points that the horse has been used to since he was halter broke
Then, some of those people plop a bit into the mouth of that horse, expecting him just to transfer what he has learned in that bittless devise. and lo and behold, they decide the horse 'does not like a bit"
Well, that mouth is virgin territory,and the horse has to have a chance to understand those new pressure points
It is also very easy to ride miles on a pretty green horse, as long as you don't ask that horse to ride out alone, or away from buddies. Not saying this is the case here, as obviously I have not seen or ridden this horse, but I know outfitters who broke horses every spring and used them on their dude string
Those horses packed anyone over all kinds of mountain miles, but try riding on out alone-that to me is the acid test


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

here you go, Jaydee, a short intro on teaching your horse to spook in place, to answer your question, regarding my reference to John Lyons
he is not the only trainer, using this concept, but i just happen to have had that reference handy

Equine Spook in Place Training | EquiSearch


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

For several years we had a horse come to us to get fit prior to going off into jump race training. He was the spookiest horse I have ever known! Nothing wrong with his eyes, in fact, he would spot a mouse hiding under a dock leaf a mile away! 

He would jump in the stable if you did something like throw a brush down, to put his blanket on he would move every time. I spent ages doing all sorts of things to get him to accept and he would - until the next day when you were back to square one! 

Everyone looked William but non would rode him except me because he was so sharp and fast. I found him exasperating but fun. I would give him ten points after he was tacked up and by the time I had led him to the mounting block he would have lost points. 
He could gain points as well as loose them. One day coming home I remarked to the girl with me that he was on plus one. I leant forward slightly and just said "Boo!" In his ear which received a leap forward and loss of his one point. 

I knew the full history of this horse, he had never been knocked around, had no reason to be frightened of his own shadow but he was yet, he was also a very bold horse crossing ditches and pushing through things that you would never expect him to do. 
In his spooking he has taken me up and down steep banks, jumped fences off the road into a field, spun 180 seen something behind and spun back 180 and continued as if nothing had happened! 
If you got cross or annoyed with him then he went to pieces and there was no sense to him at all.

When he retired from racing, and he won several races, he was given to me. No one else would have him! I don't know what he would be like following hounds, Cubbing, when young hounds are being trained was extremely interesting, we would be standing around a covert and if he glimpsed a hound moving in the undergrowth I would be 100 yards away - sideways. Only when we started hunting proper did he realise that there was no time for spooking and would go all day without thinking of spooking then riding back he would be back to his normal. 

I swear that with him it was a game, I can see no other reason for it. He did get better as he aged but every now and then he would put a whip around in to see if I was awake.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie said:


> here you go, Jaydee, a short intro on teaching your horse to spook in place, to answer your question, regarding my reference to John Lyons
> he is not the only trainer, using this concept, but i just happen to have had that reference handy
> 
> Equine Spook in Place Training | EquiSearch


 It's useful info but why do you think I need that and why do you think it's something new or unique?
I was training my ponies to spook in place when John Lyons was probably still a twinkle in his father's eye and so were generations of people in the UK before me!!!
Off track I know but I made a living for years breaking and schooling big competition and hunting horses that had to go out and ride on busy narrow UK roads - you can't have horses leaping out away from you in situations like that.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_BSms, I wish you luck with your new horse, and there certainly is nothing wrong with riding bittless, but I do see a red flag
A horse should not be stiff.A horse being stiff, plus labeled as not 'liking bits', some basics are missing_"

Where I live and at my price range, I expect any new horse to have holes. It is my job to find them and plug them. My gut feeling is that he has plenty of trail time, going in X direction until the trail turns left or right, but very little time doing turns in an arena. From his first few days, I'd guess he could go down a fairly rough trail with good balance, but will be awkward doing a figure 8 in an arena. He seems smart about rocks, gullies, ups and downs. He is cautious seeing something new, but doesn't lose his head over it.

I'll see to it he gets plenty of arena time to work on flexibility, but right now I'm very happy with his attitude and that he seems to know what to do when the ground gets rough. It is very obvious he really likes and trusts humans, too - and that makes me feel better about swapping him with Mia. I'd feel like a skunk if my mare went to someone a horse could not trust. :shock: THAT would be a gut-twister!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Well this sure is not very encouraging 

"Convincing horses to not be afraid of other animals is usually an uphill struggle. If they’re afraid of cows, pigs, goats, dogs or wildlife, often there isn’t much you can do, except try to avoid them and hang on if you can’t."


Ease Your Anxious Horse: Tips to Handle Horse Anxiety | My Horse Daily – MyHorse Daily


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Question, Dumb beginner question that is a little off topic but clearly related.

When attempting an emergency one rein stop during a bolt, with split reins and one hand gripping leather, do you just drop one rein and concentrate on the one you want to stop with?

Thanks, Harold


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Hondo said:


> Question, Dumb beginner question that is a little off topic but clearly related.
> 
> When attempting an emergency one rein stop during a bolt, with split reins and one hand gripping leather, do you just drop one rein and concentrate on the one you want to stop with?
> 
> Thanks, Harold


When I've used the one rein stop, I held two reins in one of my hands and reached down and pulled the one I want with one hand.

Once I did have a rein break and was left with only one rein. I was wrangling horses with a horse I didn't know. He got 'excited.' Not all horses can handle running other horses without getting worked up. For some reason I just let him run. I really didn't want that other rein to break! We beat the remuda in by quite a bit. lol

Besides, by letting one rein drop, you risk the horse stepping on it and possibly causing another problem or two.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Hold the reins in the hand holding on and use the free hand to stop'


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> It's useful info but why do you think I need that and why do you think it's something new or unique?
> I was training my ponies to spook in place when John Lyons was probably still a twinkle in his father's eye and so were generations of people in the UK before me!!!
> Off track I know but I made a living for years breaking and schooling big competition and hunting horses that had to go out and ride on busy narrow UK roads - you can't have horses leaping out away from you in situations like that.


 Never said it was new, or unique, Jaydee, but it is to Hondo, and that is to whom I directed that info to
I never said you 'needed' that info, but i thought maybe you did not know as to what info I was directing Hondo to, as you questioned 'why' I referred to that book , thus just tried to answer your question.

I, like you, also got horses to spook in place, long before reading John's book, but I read many, many horse publications from many sources, thus I happened to have it, as a handy reference, among countless other horse books
iN FACT, the only reason I even had those first two books of JL, in that series, because the first was a free introductory volume, and I never cancelled my membership fast enough to avoid getting the second one, which I paid for
I did find that some of his info, on putting very good basics on a trail horse, to be solid
Does not mean I am a John Lyon's disciple, and in fact, when I did take clinics, it was not from NH trainers, but those that excelled in the events I was showing in
Besides ;real trails', I trained several horses that I earned Superiors on, in trail
I'm sure we both rode lots of horses Jaydee, and I never suggested otherwise, so why are you so defensive?
I certainly admit that I never rode a cross country course, nor jumped more than some natural trail obstacles. You have me hands down there!

I have ponyed horses along highways-young halter horses, rode in the Calgary stampede, and you certainly can't have a horse spook, crossing a narrow trail, just because you run into some BIghorn , sheep, elk or ever a bear
I have ridden some pretty tough mountain trails-trails that no recreational riders ride, as I have gone on trophy Bighorn sheep hunts with my husband
Thus, i do know what makes a safe trail horse, and that is what Hondo wants
Hondo, the horse, spooks and spins, and that reference just happens to break down a way to have a horse learn to face that fear object, versus spinning into the opposite direction-does not mean it is the only way.
Ever led a pack horse, packing an elk out, in the dark, along a cliff, with 'dangerous bear in the area sign?
I believe in gaining the horses, trust, confidence in my leadership,, just like you I get after a horse that spooks just because he can, and that reference, is just another tool to help create a safe trail horse
I am sure that you are a very accomplished rider, and I admit to never having had a desire to jump, but certainly admire those International show jumpers that I see at Spruce Meadows
I also realize that galloping a cross country course, you are going to need equipment, including a bit, that contains that competition adrenaline generated, going at a speed.
That is not what we are talking about here though. We are talking of a recreational horse, ridden out in rangeland, that is in general a calm esay going horse, that just has this one little 'hole' where he was never taught to dampen his natural spook/flight reaction,or to face his fear, and Hondo does state that the horse does not truly try to bolt, but stops on his own, after that spook,spin, and jump forward a stride or so.
So, sorry if you got the impression that I was questioning your horsemanship, ability, experience, etc, as that is certainly not so. I truly though you wondered what that article was about


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Question, Dumb beginner question that is a little off topic but clearly related.
> 
> When attempting an emergency one rein stop during a bolt, with split reins and one hand gripping leather, do you just drop one rein and concentrate on the one you want to stop with?
> 
> Thanks, Harold


Cheri has written a very excellent article on the one rein stop, which she posted on another horse board, and might have that info here also
You should make sure you teach your horse that one rein stop at the walk and trot, before ever trying it at a gallop!
I never really teach the 'by the book' one rein stop, as I work on a good correct whoa , but I do put the body control on a horse, so that if he goes to spook, buck or bolt, I can get his face, , reach down with one hand and check that head around, while disengaging the hips with my leg-hard
Not the only way, for sure, but works for me
As for the reins, when I trail ride, even with a curb, I am in the habit of riding with the reins bridged, as you do, showing with a snaflle. This allows me to just lay those split reins on my horse;s neck, get my camera out, or food out of the saddle bag,, ect, and pick them up , if needed, thus I can just leave one hand on that bridge, reach the other one down to check that head around


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Well this sure is not very encouraging
> 
> "Convincing horses to not be afraid of other animals is usually an uphill struggle. If they’re afraid of cows, pigs, goats, dogs or wildlife, often there isn’t much you can do, except try to avoid them and hang on if you can’t."
> 
> ...



I don't agree with that at all. My horses don't live with cattle, but they sure see them when i ride down the road,or on gazing leases, and they also see deer, moose and elk on trail rides.
We also have ranchers that raise buffalo around here. Think a horse reacts the first time he sees cattle, wait until they see buffalo for the first time!
Some take a little longer to gain that confidence, but, with exposure and trust, they learn to accept seeing other animals , including wild life
Now, chickens!!!
The indoor arena I ride at, have chickens that are truly 'free range'
The first time I un loaded Charlie, tied her to my trailer to saddle up, and some of those chicken came squawking and jumping across the yard, took her a little time to accept!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

We had buffalo being raised near us and I can honestly say that none of the horses ever took any notice of them at all.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

William, the spooky horse I mentioned was better as he got fitter.

I was coming back from exercise one day when his elderly owners turned up to see him and other horses they had with us. 
They asked if they could see William canter so, I turned him away from the drive and rode him up th bank into a stubble field. 
As I did so I was pulling a stirrup up. As he went alongside a hedge so a pheasant flew up under his nose, he leapt sideways about 20 feet (well, it seemed that far) leaving me sitting on nothing! When he landed so he set off another pheasant and came back in time for me to land like a sack of spuds just about in the saddle. This of course frightened him and he tried to take off forward.

How I gathered a semblance of control I will never know - the owners never saw a lot because they were laughing so hard. 

Oddly enough he never bothered about the bison but wasn't so keen on the ostriches.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

I've been following this thread. Lots of good advise and interesting discussion going on. A few things have caught my attention. The OP says that he is a novice rider and needs to work on his seat. For this, I would recommend that the OP search out the posts on balanced riding by TXhorseman that are scattered throughout the forum.

Hanging onto the saddle while attempting a one rein stop was also mentioned. I try to discourage holding onto the saddle. One, there is no end to the stories of wrecks that include a turned saddle as part of the sequence of events. Also, riders holding onto the saddle are usually concentrating on using upper body strength rather than seat to stay on. In doing that the center of balance becomes higher and is working against the rider, 

In lieu of grabbing the saddle, I'd suggest a bucking strap, or night latch. This is a strap of leather, or even a rope that passes through the pommel of a western saddle. I've also seen some that attach to the D rings on the front of English saddles. A night latch changes the force from trying to stabilize yourself horizontally, as grabbing the horn does, to a more vertical force, pulling yourself deeper into the saddle.

Hope that helps some.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> Hold the reins in the hand holding on and use the free hand to stop'


Well duh! Makes sense.

Thinking. I plan on doing some drills bending his head to the right (since I think he mostly turns to the left). And of course I predominantly carry the reins in my right hand.

So I would either need to practice with the reins in my left and grabbing leather, or switching the reins to the left hand, grabbing leather, then pulling a one right rein.

Now as I'm writing, I'm thinking maybe practice grabbing leather with both hands no matter which has the reins with both hands on top of the reins then releasing the right hand to pull his head around.

That seems the least complicated and gets me secure the fastest. Thoughts?

My idea is to get some neural pathways started. No matter what happens, I'm certain I'll have a few more episodes and hopefully ride them all out.



Smilie said:


> You should make sure you teach your horse that one rein stop at the walk and trot, before ever trying it at a gallop!
> 
> As for the reins, when I trail ride, even with a curb, I am in the habit of riding with the reins bridged, as you do,


I just Googled One Rein Stop. I'll be reading that stuff today. Lots of it. Hopefully find Cherie's stuff.

Absolutely had not dawned on my slow brain that I will in fact be doing a one rein at a gallop, run, or something very fast. I don't wanna be doing any endo's or flying W's.

I am not even familiar with the term bridged reins. But if it means having the split reins loosely or weakly attached I have thought about it. One of the first things I was taught was how to pick up a dropped rein. They all use split reins for riding in the brush so they don't get hung up and do bad stuff to the horses mouth and head.

So how are your reins bridged? Sounds like a good idea plus the planned drills above.


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## kapbob8 (Mar 18, 2015)

The best thing I can come up with is that your horse is bored. My mare was the same way, she would shy and spook at stuff you doesn't recognize. I started doing patterns with her, lots of alternating circles and transitions just to get her busy. It helped tremendulously


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> In lieu of grabbing the saddle, I'd suggest a bucking strap, or night latch. This is a strap of leather, or even a rope that passes through the pommel of a western saddle.


Had not heard of that but makes sense. I Googled and one site even calls them Chicken Straps. (i liked that)

I use a Crates Endurance Saddle that has a small diameter pommel that is easily grabbed and is down very low. But a chicken strap might be easier to hang on to.

I'll experiment with that and thanks for the info and suggestion.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Hondo said:


> Well duh! Makes sense.
> 
> Thinking. I plan on doing some drills bending his head to the right (since I think he mostly turns to the left). And of course I predominantly carry the reins in my right hand.
> 
> ...


It sounds as if you're reluctant to use your left hand. All that switching hands in the split second while your horse is doing pirouettes sounds very complicated to me. Why not practice keeping the reins in whichever hand you're comfortable with and practice reaching down with the free hand?

Bridging the reins means crossing the reins parallel to each other right where you hold them. They lay flat against each other and the tail of the left rein hangs down on the right and the right reign is the opposite.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

kapbob8 said:


> The best thing I can come up with is that your horse is bored. My mare was the same way, she would shy and spook at stuff you doesn't recognize. I started doing patterns with her, lots of alternating circles and transitions just to get her busy. It helped tremendulously


On some occasions you may be right. As in the last one I'm pretty sure if we had been riding with a purpose with his ears forward and alert he would have seen the cow long before she moved and ignored her altogether.

But there are other times such as when he was drinking from a stream and lurched around and bolted.

And my first get off when I was bareback. It was about dusk and he was very nervous and of course alert. Something must have moved in the brush to our left. That ended my bareback riding. The person on the ranch who rode him some on cattle round ups said they sure would not ride him bare back.

So there is a mixture of situations but they all seem to have involved a movement that was close enough to him when first alerted to cause him alarm.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> ...One, there is no end to the stories of wrecks that include a turned saddle as part of the sequence of events. Also, riders holding onto the saddle are usually concentrating on using upper body strength rather than seat to stay on. In doing that the center of balance becomes higher and is working against the rider,
> 
> In lieu of grabbing the saddle, I'd suggest a bucking strap, or night latch...


I'll disagree with this. Here is why.

1 - Saddle turning. Been there, done that. It happened so fast that I didn't know what had happened. I just realized my left foot was level with my horse's back and my right foot was out of the stirrup. Then I realized my butt was on the left fender, and the saddle horn was pointing 90 deg right.

Typically a saddle fit issue. My one time was no gently sliding saddle event, though. Once done, there was no good option but jumping off my horse, who had stopped.

2 - If a horse is bucking, then a bucking strap might help. I used one on an Australian saddle during the one bucking episode I had. If you use one - and I've ridden with one for hundreds of rides while only needing it once - use it to lever your seat deeper in the saddle. I gather some folks use it to pull themselves forward, but that will make you come off faster.

3 - For spins, the typical problem is you get off balance to one side. If 75% of your weight is to the right of the horse, then grabbing a saddle horn and getting your rump centered again is very helpful. I have an Australian saddle without a horn (and one with). I watched both my oldest daughter and my DIL do slow speed tumbles out of it. Once they got off balance from a tight turn, they had nothing to help them get centered over the horse's back.

Before trading Mia for Branded last week, she had reached a point where her startles came about once every 1-2 months. I'm used to having two hands on the reins, both near the withers. It still feels weird to me to have one hand on my thigh. So I took to leaving my free hand resting on the saddle horn just behind my rein hand. Maybe it made me look like a dork. I have that problem regardless. But it felt better balanced than on my thigh and it gave me confidence. Maybe my confidence was false...but anytime the rider is more confident, the horse should be too.

That isn't a death grip on the horn...just resting on top of it. After all, the free hand has to go somewhere! A death grip on it while riding would hurt your balance.

For forward jumps in a western saddle, a tiny slouch with my pockets against the 4" cantle worked. A 5" cantle would work even better. 

For sudden stops, having my feet slightly forward (back of heel in line with my belt buckle) and my heels down helps a lot. 

For a "Stop & Drop", AKA "The OMG Crouch", having the stirrups about one hole shorter than I used to like helped - but I used to use a very long leg - stirrup bed about level with the bottom of my foot's heel. That was good to prevent me bracing, but made it too easy to loose a stirrup when my horse's back dropped 6 inches.

You could also try a roper rein - one piece. Won't drop. Some are shorter, but I think the maximum length of 8' is my personal minimum. English reins are nice and some come 9' long. I had a set made for me by Nutty Saddler that are 10' long. You can get them made of yacht rope in any length on eBay.

Don't know if any of that helps. I'm no great shakes as a rider, but those are the things I've had to do to stay on. A relaxed, loose lower back helps. Mine was injured in Jan 2009 and is only now starting to loosen up. It makes a difference.

Good luck!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Harold, 
I ride with split reins bridged like Smile explained (end of left rein draped over right side of horse, right rein draped to the left, overlapping each other at the midpoint) and in a one rein stop I keep hold of both and just slide the hand down on the side I am turning to (direct reining).

If you haven’t already, make sure you work with Hondo on giving the head laterally or “flexing” so to speak. That way if you need to use the one rein stop, you are sure that he will give you his head all the way around (nose to stirrup) and won’t fight it. I think Clinton Anderson has a video on line how to teach it.

Before I mount we do a little routine where Oliver flexes right, holds, release, then left, then right again and I put my hand o his flank and he disengages. Then repeat on the left and then mount.

I disengage right and left from the saddle then forward and stop, back up, before moving out.

Some people may think all of that is overkill, but with him being “green” the routine gets him into the working mindset and makes me feel better that the “emergency brakes” physically and metally are at least on line and working properly in case he decides to pull any shenanigans.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> It sounds as if you're reluctant to use your left hand. All that switching hands in the split second while your horse is doing pirouettes sounds very complicated to me. Why not practice keeping the reins in whichever hand you're comfortable with and practice reaching down with the free hand?
> 
> Bridging the reins means crossing the reins parallel to each other right where you hold them. They lay flat against each other and the tail of the left rein hangs down on the right and the right reign is the opposite.


Not really reluctant to use my left hand. I do frequently when bending branches out of the way with my right hand while riding. Or when getting the GPS or camera out with my right hand while moving. It's just that my dominant hand is my right hand and tend to use it more. And the right side also happens to be the side the one rein stop needs to be made from since he seems to spin to the left mostly.

So my solution to switching hands which I agree would be too clumsy during an emergency is to train myself to grab with both hands (pulling downward to the seat) then release the right hand to pull the rein around.

Ok. Bridged rein is just crossed rein. Sure I do that. Or sometimes I carry the loose ends in my left with the reins over his neck in my right. Sometimes opposite. In a 6 or 7 hour day I do lots of stuff with the reins.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Harold,
> I ride with split reins bridged like Smile explained (end of left rein draped over right side of horse, right rein draped to the left, overlapping each other at the midpoint) and in a one rein stop I keep hold of both and just slide the hand down on the side I am turning to (direct reining).
> 
> If you haven’t already, make sure you work with Hondo on giving the head laterally or “flexing” so to speak. That way if you need to use the one rein stop, you are sure that he will give you his head all the way around (nose to stirrup) and won’t fight it. I think Clinton Anderson has a video on line how to teach it.


But remember, I need to grab the Chicken Strap with my left as quickly as possible (as in microseconds) and bend to the right.

All horses on the ranch know how to bend their head to the knee. They are very very big on that here. And Hondo does that either direction.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, developing a good seat advise on sitting a spin, all are very informative, but Hondo is an older novice rider, thus to me in makes sense in teaching his horse not to spin away when he sees something scary
If Hondo is scared of cattle, letting him trail some cows helps a lot, as the horse then feels he is moving those cattle, versus having those cows come up behind him
In the spring, we have young heifers turned out in the pastures that I ride by. Those cattle love to come bucking and leaping up to the fence, as you ride by, and while a seasoned horse knows that fence is going t stop those cattle, many green horses that I have ridden down the road for their first trips out, think 'my GOd, I'm going to be killed'!
What really helps me then, when my horse thinks about 'leaving the country', is that body control, where I can ask for the face, keeping him facing those cattle, and use my legs to keep forward, moving at a slight angle if I have to,keeping shoulders and ribs going in the direction I want, versus the horse trying to spin around. If a horse spins around, you have lost shoulder control


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

One of the good things about riding with bridged reins is being able to let the reins slide slack to nearly the ends if necessary, while still keeping control of them in your hand. You can hold the reins while you grab the strap without putting pressure on the off side of the bit. (this is another one of those pictures that is hard to put into words). 

Glad to hear Hondo's already got "the flex". Saves you a step.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> You could also try a roper rein - one piece.


Have one and have used it on trail rides. I do like it but when in the heavy brush I do use split. Maybe I'll drill with both.

I wish I had videos or a witness to me coming off as I don't really know how I do come off. One time I was predominantly on my back but more to the right. Other two were on my right shoulder.

I "think" what happens is I'm shifted to the right, out of balance, during the spin, and when he lurches into gallop I come off both to the right and the rear.

If so, horizontally holding myself forward would help. But I'm not going to try to analyze when it's happening. I'm just gonna try to train myself to grab and hang on tight!

All of the spooks I have successfully ridden out have been hands free. So if I can grab, I should (fingers crossed) be ok.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Ride in wilderness, and there is always going to be an animal that jumps out suddenly, grouse that drum and fly up under the nose of your horse, and it becomes not important that your horse spooks, but what he does after that spook.
You can train a horse not to spin and try to leave, and for a rider like Hondo, that seems the logical approach, rather then trying to earn his badge of, 'ride enough horses , and sooner or later you hit the ground'
Of course, having tools if 's''t, hits the fan , is certainly good back up!
Yes, horses get used to buffalo, being exposed and seeing them in an open pasture. In fact, buffalo are often used here, instead of cattle, for working cowhorse training, as they don't sour as quickly
But, I ride down past brush, where buffalo suddenly appear between the trees, and their shaggy appearance,will upset a horse never exposed to seeing them before, more than suddenly coming upon a cow, in my experience
Some horses are also terrified of donkeys at first, esp if they bray!
Since I ride all my horses out, I was once riding my reining mare on 4 mile loop on my local roads, and part of that loop is on pavement.
I had slide plates on the back. We passed one pasture, where there was a Jack donkey, which in itself was not bad, but when he came braying towards us, my mare got a 'bit excited' Slide plates are not then a very good addition to a discussion with your horse on pavement, but again, with body control, I got her into the ditch, and then by that donkey
Hondo has learned that he can spin away from something that appears suddenly, and that is what I truly think needs to be fixed, so the rider, Hondo, does not get hurt


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> But remember, I need to grab the Chicken Strap with my left as quickly as possible (as in microseconds) and bend to the right.
> 
> All horses on the ranch know how to bend their head to the knee. They are very very big on that here. And Hondo does that either direction.


Teaching a horse to bend his head to the knee, is good, esp for things like the one rein stop, but what many people do, is just teach that head bend, and never shoulder control
Thus, you can see horses running off to the right, with their nose and neck cranked to the left, going where they wish to go, following their shoulders
Horses naturally follow their shoulders, not their nose, until we teach them to follow their nose with their entire body in the correct alignment
A horse that spins , unasked, is in essence, running off at the shoulder, and thus I will correct him for that, bumping him hard in several turns over the haunches, in the opposite direction, and then let him stand in the direction we were originally facing. He has to know that spinning, and trying to leave, is not the 'answer'


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> If Hondo is scared of cattle, letting him trail some cows helps a lot, as the horse then feels he is moving those cattle, versus having those cows come up behind him


Hondo is not scared of cattle per se. We gather and drove them several time a year. Hondo LIKES to work cattle. He seems to like cutting also the way he responds.

Again, it movement that is nearby that he did not notice previously that sets him off. His last spin and bolt was from a cow. But we were close when she moved and he first noticed her. I'm sure he was sleeping that time. There have been two big shies that were from cattle hidden in the brush nearby as we rode by that moved into view. Just a 6 foot shy and we moved on down the trail.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Hondo has learned that he can spin away from something that appears suddenly, and that is what I truly think needs to be fixed, so the rider, Hondo, does not get hurt


Agreed! But my first objective will be to stay in the saddle as the fixing progresses. Working on several fronts here.

My first year was mostly dedicated to learning hoof care. Got that down pretty well. This is the start of my second year where the focus will be learning to actually ride and plugging holes in Hondo's training. Hopefully.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I would be reluctant to ride with closed reins, as should you come off, and Hondo get a leg caught in those reins, he could have a serious wreak
In fact, even with my split reins, I prefer where those reins are attached to the bit by a separate piece of leather and rawhide thongs. If a horse accidently steps on those reins, the rawhide will break, versus chancing damage to the mouth, and I always carry extra rawhide lacing, 'just in case'
Several years ago, I had started tow three year olds, one for me and one for hubby. We decided to take them on an early spring ride to the Ya Ha tinda, which is unique ,in the fact that there is a large alpine grassland area, where elk will congregate in the early spring, in herds big enough, that even humans can smell them
When we got fairly close to a big herd, with that herd being just over the next rise, hubby said, 'why don't you take your camera and see if you can get a good picture, while I hold the horses'

I thus went on foot, sneaking up to the top of that rise, to get a good picture, when I suddenly heard commotion behind me. I turned to see my horse bucking across that grasslands, and hubby just holding onto his horse, so both did not leave!
My first thought was, 'gee I never knew Ringo could buck like that, and I sure hope my saddle is on tight!"
Ringo bucked a big loop, then came back to hubby and buddy. Saddle was still on, that goodness, but one rein was gone, but Ringo's mouth was not damaged.
Did not find that rein, so rode with a lead shank as one of my reins.
As for Ringo, I admit I was a bit hesitant about getting on, seeing how well he bucked, but once I was on him, he was fine and we had a good several days of mountain riding
Ringo was a good young horse, that I bought as a 9 month old ,from a PMU outfit
Unfortunately, I had to put him down when he was only 7, due to progressive tendon issues, maybe going back to his early nutrition, when I bought him, as he was covered in ringworm (thus the name Ringo ), and in a poor body condition and wormy

Here is Ringo


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If you're worried about dropping a rein (as in split reins) then why not use buckled ones?
One less thing to worry about
A 1 rein stop will only work if the horse has learnt to give to pressure left/right so will turn its head willingly when asked. If it braces its neck or locks its jaw the most you can hope to do is ride in 'spirals' of ever decreasing circles. If you're in a place where there are ground hazards or lack of space it could be a bigger risk
than a good result.
Stunt riders use a similar technique to get a horse to 'fall' to the ground
The key to winning lies in how fast you train yourself to react

If Hondo is so tense in himself that he's constantly looking or listening for things to spook at maybe you should look at using a calming supplement for a while - usually magnesium based?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Hondo is not scared of cattle per se. We gather and drove them several time a year. Hondo LIKES to work cattle. He seems to like cutting also the way he responds.
> 
> Again, it movement that is nearby that he did not notice previously that sets him off. His last spin and bolt was from a cow. But we were close when she moved and he first noticed her. I'm sure he was sleeping that time. There have been two big shies that were from cattle hidden in the brush nearby as we rode by that moved into view. Just a 6 foot shy and we moved on down the trail.



Agree, it is that sudden movement, when they can't really see that animal in advance, that can set up a major spook, but horses can learn to handle that reaction even then, and if you ride in wilderness, no way are you not going to have an animal suddenly pop out 
Just riding in the hay field next to us, that has woods on one side, I had three muley buck suddenly jump out of that woods in front of Smilie and I, and Smilie is not a dull dead horse, and took a lot of work as a young horse to get her reliable, riding out!
When I had Carmen on her first mountain hunt, we were riding down a re claimed forestry road, that ran between wooded slopes of the foot of a mountain on one side, and then some bush and drop to a river on the other side
Thus , mountain sheep will cross that road, suddenly,coming off that mountain, to get down tot he river. As we were riding down that road, suddenly a herd of mountain sheep (ewes and lambs, the legal rams never come down,e sp in hunting season ), broke out of the trees and ran across the road ahead of us. Carmen gave a big crouching startle , but did not try to spin and leave
She did think about it though, when one straggler, came out on a rock ledge, directly above us!
Anyway Harold stay safe, and I did say that part of that backup , is to learn how to survive those big spooks and whirls, should they still happen, as nothing is 100% sure with any horse, nor is any horse truly ever completely 'bomb proof"


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> I would be reluctant to ride with closed reins, as should you come off, and Hondo get a leg caught in those reins, he could have a serious wreak...


7 years riding a spooky horse and I never dropped my one piece yacht rope reins. My 3 horses were also taught (by a trainer, not me) to stop if their feet got tangled. But even with 10' roper reins, it would be tough for a horse to get their feet caught in them - 10/2 = 5, which is about the height the bit is carried.

With 8' roper reins? I'd call it a freak accident if anything happened. I'd be more worried about what a horse would do if I had one rein while the other was dragging, or no reins at all. I had Trooper's bridle come off once - he stopped. I'm pretty sure Mia would not have.

The English reins are deliberately made with a weak point where they buckle together. In a 54" length, they would buckle together to be about 9' long. It may be radical to use "English" reins with a western horse, but I've been a mix & match type guy for a long time... 










And Nutty Saddler will make custom English reins at a reasonable price, including shipping from Europe to the USA. I like how they will buckle to the bit.

Also: A ORS is a trained reaction. It is not just pulling the horse's nose to your knee. Years ago, visiting a ranch, I got to experience a runaway horse whose nose was inches from my left knee. Happily, an old cowboy had told me a few days prior that in an emergency you could also turn a horse by kicking his outside shoulder. That got "Sham" turned just prior to hitting a barbed wire fence. He proved to me a horse can gallop fine with his head 180 out from his body!​


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> I would be reluctant to ride with closed reins, as should you come off, and Hondo get a leg caught in those reins, he could have a serious wreak


My closed reins are attached with a rawhide strap and rawhide strings that will break.

Rode back about a week ago with one rein and the lead rope. I think the other rein is where we took a long break and then I led him a long ways after that. Stepped on it and pulled it off I think.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

jaydee said:


> If Hondo is so tense in himself that he's constantly looking or listening for things to spook at maybe you should look at using a calming supplement for a while - usually magnesium based?


Hondo's magnesium supplement is due into today on UPS from ValleyVet.

What are buckled reins? Google doesn't seem to be up on that either.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The English buckled reins I've got look like this:










Mine were made 10' long, so 5' to a side and then buckled together. They will also buckle to the bit & use 3/4" wide leather. A more typical length seems to be 54" a side. The buckle is intended to break if a horse catches its leg in them. They also buckle to the bit.

I need to use mine more, but my thought right now is that a total length of 9' (2 x 54") would work pretty good.

They also come with braided leather, rubber covered leather, etc. I posted some questions on them here:

http://www.horseforum.com/english-r...reins-construction-length-569786/#post7336594


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Bsms has answered that one - I'd never ridden with split reins until I came here and I suppose because I'm not used to them I really didn't like them
Good luck with the supplement - if it doesn't help then try another. I find the people at Smartpak very helpful
Our newest horse was very nervous in the field and would hardly move from the gate all day - even jumped out a few times and put herself in the barn so we tried Smartcalm Ultra on her - maybe it was just coincidence but within two weeks she was happily wandering around without a care in the world and has been like that ever since


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

my English reins have a buckle, that can be un done, and you would have single reins > Bit is also attached to the bit with buckle set ups.
We all find out what works for us.
Our trail horses are taught to leg picket, thus are very good at not getting into panic mode, if their feet get hung up
We all use what works for us, and I like split reins, as that is what I show with, start colts with, and generally ride with.
Only time you see closed rein on western horses, is in events like roping
Does not mean others like, prefer closed reins, just my opinion
Only time I ride with closed reins, is in HUS
My horses are also taught to ground tie, thus would stop when those reins are dropped (most cases, although obviously bucking across the Ya Ha tinda, when hubby lost control , holding my horse, is certainly an exception!
I do admire you for your determination, at this stage in your life, in becoming an accomplished rider, Hondo
I will be the first to admit that I no longer ride with the confidence that I used to, as I have had enough wreaks over the years, that I know how hurt one can become, in the blink of an eye, whether you part company with your horse by not staying on, or , go down with him in an accident
I also ride with double knee replacements, and many people that have had replacements, quit riding. Coming off now, could possibily make it so I can never ride again, nor enjoy the great functioning that I now have,with these bionic knees.
At one time, I would get on any problem horse someone asked me to. I enjoyed putting those trail miles and first show experiences on a young horse.
I will continue to ride ,until I am no more, hopefully, thus it makes sense for me to put more basics , body control, etc then I ever did in the past, on my horses, before riding out. It is all about minimizing risk, taking age and the fact that this old body does not bunce as well as in the past!
If life was fair, I would have what I learned riding and working with horses over the course of a lifetime, and still that young body!

Charlie ground tied, yes,, just practicing trail in an arena




Smilie ground tied, but of course, no subsitute for tying solid, but works for a 'bathroom' break, or a picture taking session




OOPs, do realize I ride western with closed reins, using a bosal!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Far as the mg, it will only work if your horse is deficient in Magnesium

You can also feed dried raspberry leaves , as they are high in Magnesium, and can buy them in bulk in health food stores
Mare Magic , is mainly red raspberry leaves, and thus many feed it to geldings also, as , in spite of the name, Mare magic really does noting far as a mare's hormones


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

YEA!!!! Hondo actually likes his magnesium supplements! I've got other supplements he just won't eat period.

Now fingers crossed that he is actually deficient.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Just had a great ride on Charlie!
My great white beast is finally starting to act like a half sister to Einstein!
This morning, in between dropping in here for a break, I gave her her first wash of the season, so I could clip her, just in case that show bug comes back to bite me!
For a horse that I could not get near her head and neck with the hose before, she stood like A rock star!. Horses do learn to control their phobias and fears.
While I was riding her tonight, I also re called a clinic I watched, with Stacy Westfall, and the info form it, might just be another tool for you.
I did use that excerise once or twice with Charlie, s she also is by nature a very reactive horse (must be from her sire's side, to who I bred her dam by transported semen)
The subject basically was 'random motion', to help a horse be less reactive
You lead your horse, while holding a lunge whip in the other hand. You then just strike the ground on either side in front of the both of you, in a regular back and forth rhythm. Soon, the horse gets very relaxed, and no longer reacts to that regular back and forth
That is when you stick in some sudden hard ground strikes on one side or the other, with no regular interval
At first,. that horse with react quite strongly, waking up from that lull, created by that regular back and forth, BUT, the longer you do that, the less reactive the horse becomes to that sudden hard whack
Just another tool to add to your arsenal and see if it helps


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

For some dumb reason I actually like to take walks sometimes with Hondo. It'll be easy and convenient for me to try that drill and I will.

I'm also seriously thinking about some remote controlled toys placed along a trail. Could have them on the ground or have them where they would reel up a plastic bag off of the ground. That would remove the scary thing from being associated with me causing it altogether. Maybe leave it at the same spot until Hondo started ignoring it and then move it. Hondo's nervousness is a long term project I do not expect to complete/achieve by next week or next month.

I was talking about spook, turn, run, stop and look to a person on the ranch and he reminded me that Hondo did not stop to just look because he was looking at whatever it was while he ran. He just stopped because whatever it was, was not chasing him. Otherwise he would have kept running. So maybe he is looking to get a distance reading using both eyes to the front and maybe a better look.

I also wound up going out for a short ride. Ran into a group of cattle I've been chasing out of the horse pasture on a regular basis with the motorcycle and decided to try to get them to the corral 1.5 miles away. 

Had some interferences with an ATV on two occasions but made it all the way. Sixteen in all with three unbranded long ears and some long tails that needed processing.

Hondo did great as is usual. He knows how to move cattle as well or better than I.

Just for extra safety I rested my left hand on top of the hornless pommel/fork with my fingers lightly curled under it and the loose ends of the reins under my hand. I like to hold my left hand out free for balance but it didn't feel too clumsy that way and didn't make me ride tense or stiff.

So until this gets sorted out I think that's how I'll ride. If things go South all I'll have to do is tighten my hand as it'll already be there. That fraction of a second could make a big difference. And the pommel keeps my hand as low or lower than a chicken strap but I will still try that also just to see how it feels.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Is there ANYTHING in the horse world that is not controversial?

Just watched a CA vid of the importance of a ORS and then read through this where several believe the ORS to be inherently dangerous:

One rein stop (or more to the point, not) [Archive] - Chronicle Forums


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

The one rein stop doesn't stop a horse…it disengages the hindquarters on a horse that follows it nose. That's all it does. It is great to use BEFORE things get out of hand…but once the horse bolts, it is useless, and I too believe, dangerous.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Horse Poor said:


> The one rein stop doesn't stop a horse…it disengages the hindquarters on a horse that follows it nose. That's all it does. It is great to use BEFORE things get out of hand…but once the horse bolts, it is useless, and I too believe, dangerous.


I just watched Julie Goodnight's video on a pulley rein. She seems to agree with you and says it's much safer to keep the horse running straight at speed as he is brought down and under control.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFt-yJhVZg8

All said, if the horse learns to only spook in place, that would be preferred by me.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Is there ANYTHING in the horse world that is not controversial?...


Like many other areas of controversy, it depends.

If someone thinks a one reins stop just means "Yank the horse's head to one side, the horse cannot run that way", then THAT type of ORS is dangerous. Also ineffective. I've been on a galloping horse whose nose was inches from my knee...didn't slow him in the least. It probably can throw a horse off balance, too.

But as a trained reaction, it can work fine. I've said snaffles are not a great design for pulling back on both reins. It puts pressure in the wrong area. Using a snaffle with one rein usually works better - so using one rein to give a stop cue can be more effective at giving the cue, mechanically, than using both reins at the same time.

But of course, if the horse hasn't been trained to obey that cue, and hasn't done enough repetition so that it becomes 'muscle memory' rather than something that requires a little thought, then he won't obey it when you need it most.

This is a typical trail here:










For THIS riding environment, a curb bit with its "Forward/Back" type of action works well. I plan to transition my new guy to a curb bit this summer. It matches my environment better than doing one rein stops with a snaffle - but either will work if the horse has been trained. Neither will work well without the training and lots of practice. IMHO.

Pulley rein stop: Knowing it probably saved my butt once when Mia had bolted and was not responding at all as we neared a dead end with cactus all around us. But FWIW, it hurt her mouth. Better a hurt mouth than both of us going off into the boulders and cactus, but it really bothered her. A curb bit, OTOH, has never seemed to bother her mouth. I like knowing the pulley rein. Knowing how to use it may have kept me alive. But I'd rather use a curb bit. At least, I prefer it for the Sonoran Desert of southern Arizona.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Hondo said:


> Is there ANYTHING in the horse world that is not controversial?


 I know this was meant to be rhetorical, but NO. :lol:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is an excellent video by Larry Trocha, explaining the two types of spooks, the body position you yourself need, and the way you run that hand down the rein, to take the head away, plus the body control you need on your horse.
AS they say, a picture is worth a 1000 words, and this video explains very well what I have been trying to say all along in i this entire thread
Note, how that snaffle is used to control what the horse does after the spook, so he never gets into a bolt
He also does not call it a one rein stop per say, and does what I am been trying to explain, taking that horse's head away and controlling his feet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Djhlz90JzfY


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Just wanted to add, I think that video, explains very well the importance of body control, versus relying on any bit to control a horse by just trying to out pull that horse, or depend on how that bit functions, and why I continue to stand by my opinion, that ahorse,that runs through a snaffle, after a spook lacks the body control, that goes way beyond simply being able to have that horse flex, while riding in an arena, and that the rider does not know how to use that snaffle correctly.
I fullly agree that if you are doing some adrenaline speed event, thus already have that horse up into a gallop, you very well might need a different bit, a martingale, etc to control that horse from becoming `chargy`` and heavy
However, you should have the body control, and use that snaffle , as shown in that video, before ever allowing a horse to get into a bolt, after a spook, that, and having the seat and position to ride that spook, and then use that rein corretcly, to get control, and that is not trying to out pull that horse in a snaffle, once he has gotten into a full out bolt and has stiffened up, nor just holding onto that one rein
Of course, many `spoiled horses never try their vise, in a controlled area , like an arena, but the point being, on going back to basics , in a controlled area, is that you get those fundamentals that Larry explains, and then you are able to use those factors, to control what happens after that spook, long, long before that horse ever gets into a full blown bolt


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Depends on the horse. I could keep Mia in one place with a snaffle, but she would fight it - and the fighting confirmed her fear. She'd settle after 60-120 seconds of fighting, but the fight made it obvious to her that the scary thing was truly scary. 

She would not fight a curb bit, so she would stay in place and learn there was nothing very scary going on anyways. I could keep Mia from bolting in a snaffle, but I could not calm her in a snaffle.

OTOH, Trooper has never fought a snaffle in his life. It isn't his nature to do so. He's a "Trooper" - someone who tries to obey. I think the new guy (Mia's replacement - Branded, or Brandy or maybe Bandit - the name is in flux right now) will be like that. If so, then a snaffle will work even if he gets scared - although a snaffle will not be "gentler" than the curb because a good curb is not "harsh". Indeed, a curb the horse responds to is much gentler than a snaffle the horse will fight. Used with slack reins, it is arguably gentler than a snaffle for general purpose riding, and probably gentler than a sidepull.

Depends on the horse, the rider, the terrain and the goals. I like Larry Trocha's stuff, but I'd always prefer to stop a horse by rotating my wrist 3 times in a row with a Billy Allen curb than by using the snaffle as he shows it - easier on the horse's mouth.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

The pulley rein and the ORS are two different things. Re: the ORS, if you use a snaffle, use a chin strap. Otherwise you risk pulling the bit through the mouth, which will make your situation worse. Re: snaffle vs. curb, a rider should use what works best for both rider and horse.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> Depends on the horse. I could keep Mia in one place with a snaffle, but she would fight it - and the fighting confirmed her fear. She'd settle after 60-120 seconds of fighting, but the fight made it obvious to her that the scary thing was truly scary.
> 
> She would not fight a curb bit, so she would stay in place and learn there was nothing very scary going on anyways. I could keep Mia from bolting in a snaffle, but I could not calm her in a snaffle.
> 
> ...


You keep missing the entire point Bsm, and we are not talking about what a horse works best in, controlling a horse already up in a lope or canter, just riding with your hands, BUT the entire concept of body control, which is NOT holding Mia in one place, with the reins, but rather in controlling her body, so she comes back to you versus bolting.
Terrain is non issue, far as whether Larry's principles work, as you put that control on a horse, before going out on a trail, so that you are not needing 'space'
I ride in pretty much all kind of terrain, including open spaces and narrow trails where a horse better not spook sideways, or go off over a cliff
Forget the bit, for once, and see what Larry is explaining, far as body control, riding not just with your hands. You don't set that snaffle, pulling on both reins, nor do you just concentrate on the head.
Yes, a curb will solve your problem, short term, but you have done nothing, far as addressing the true issue, and that is 'body control',able to get that horse ;'back to you, without just relying on a bit
I also ride on trails, that were a horse to loose forward momentum, let alone spin, you would ,be up the proverbial 'sh't' creek!
If you just rely on that curb, sooner that later , that will blow up in you face
You need not preach to me as to how curb bits function, as I have many different curbs, to get finesse in riding. I used to rein in a Billy Allen
I am not someone that advocates bittless, riding a horse in a snaffle forever, but I am one to insist on going to acurb for finesse , not control, to know you need total body softness, thus just flexing at the poll , means zero
Bits are rated as to severity , with the hands on those reins being a constant, otherwise no grading would be possible.
Thus, using that criteria, you will not find one reference that infers a curb is less severe than a snaffle.
I cannot control riders that use a snaffle bit incorrectly, that use just rein pressure, versus total body control, thus riding with LEGS, not just their hands
What Larry is showing, is able to take hold of a horse, plus body control, so that the horse fails to ever get into a a full blown out bolt, where things like pully rein, more severe bits , ect are needed
Truly, the statement that bits don't control horses is very true
That statement has nothing to do with what a horse 'works best in, which to me, means finesse, able to use way less rein contact for the same results-ie invisible cues
I am 100 % sure that Mia had huge holes in training, that you 'patched' with a curb. Maybe she will stay convinced that she can;t run through a bit, but she could,just as likely learn to run through that curb, because in reality, you fixed nothing
This is some of the stuff I ride in

lots of open space to bolt in, plus wild horses in the back ground




this is about where our dog, brought back a cow elk, that most likely had a calf in the trees, and regarded our dog as a predator. Ever control a horse, with a cow elk charging you?. Sorry no picture, as I was busy contolling my horse';s feet, as Larry demonstated



lots of room to bolt here



Well, once you arrived here, you have climbed a long ways on steep trails with a drop off. That water is not the bottom, but just a mountain basin
Any spook along the way, or an attempt to spin, and you would need Stars to get you!


Yup, those are elk, which my horse certainly has not seen in the home pasture





Sorry, no picture of extreme climbs,a s I am too busy riding!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Here's one of the nicer trails on the ranch. Probably nice because it actually IS a trail. On some one needs to use their imagination to even call it a trail.

I'm holding the camera with one hand here. On other trails I prefer to have both hands and more attention on the horse.

Don't wanna be doing to many large circles on these trails. LOL

https://youtu.be/xnxgEjG1E4I

Once I sent a video from YouTube to the person I roundup cattle with of some nuts sliding their horses down a long steep dirt chute. Big mistake. A few days/weeks later we were going along the bank above the river when they angled off towards the river muttering, "I think it's right around here", and pretty soon I saw their horse sliding on all fours towards the bottom of the decent.

It felt like I had my head almost touching Hondo's rump and was prepared for going over his head but he just walked right out at the bottom. I think we only slid about 6 feet.

Once we were crossing a gully over large flat sloping rock. I watched Windstar slide her front feet down the rock to the bottom and walk out with the fronts while she hopped her hinds to the bottom of the slope. Hondo followed in suit.

That's some of the stuff I ride in.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Good points, Hondo, and that demo on how to take control of your horse, shows how to run that hand down the reins, how to get control of the entire body, how to use one rein at at ime, so a horse does not set his neck or jaw, in other words body control, versus allowing a horse to get up into a full blown bolt, and trying to out pull him with both reins on that snaffle
That does not mean you don't have other 'tools, in that tool box, depending on the situation, such as spooking in place and teaching the continuance of 'forward', nor the ability to use the 'calm down cue, which consists of a horse giving his face and poll, and lowering his head'
When a horse stares, head up, bracy, he is in flight mode
The entire concept here, is that you need body control and mental control, that teaches a horse to control his natural flight instinct, and you will never have that, just relying on any bit.
Horses can, and do learn to run through any bit, and if horses are just stopped by the bit,versus yielding the body, many horses will feel trapped , and resort to other vises like rearing or bucking
A certain bit might cure one horse completely, so he never attempts to bolt again. Another horse might learn to just get behind the vertical, and still bolt, or resort to bucking and rearing
I ride many similar trails, along narrow schale slopes with big drop offs, and I always tell myself that the horse does not wish to fall any more that I do!
Some of those trails are so steep, that one is left wondering if the horse will make it to the next level, where that trail levels out a bit, going through some trees, before you hit another exposed switch back. I ride in the Rocky Mountains, after all!
The point is not that you are going to make huge circles anywhere on such a trail, and a horse is also not likly to try and bolt on such a trail, if he has any self preservation, but rather that you do prove you can control his body, and apply whatever method applies to a certain circumstance-be it the exercise shown by Larry, where a horse has major room to bolt, or simply keeping ;forward, or the ability to get a horse back to you, when he is in flight mode, starting ahead
I do think that video shows what you do with your hands, how you sit that spook, in a situation where Hondo wants to spook, spin and leave!
You have prove to the horse that you can control his feet, and that means using legs as well as hands


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I feel for you.
My buckskin, Mona was a ex-ranch horse and had been a line pony.
She has tons of trail miles, and is a spook and spin horse. I got pretty good at reading her, but every once in while I would get caught off guard. That is how my rotator cuff got torn.
My grey, Willow is much more honest about her reactions and easier to read. I've been told by trainers, that Mona is reactive. She spooks first and then her brain catches up.
Great survival tool, not so great to ride. 
I'm not sure how you get around that. I'm sure its a training issue, but I think it goes back to the way she was started. If there is a way to fix it I've haven't figured it out.
It isn't like she spooks at everything or even often, and it is very random.
The whole indecent takes maybe five seconds.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

When our dog, ran into the trees, and brought back an angry cow elk, no bit alone would have stopped our horses from bolting ( we no longer take our dog on mountain rides, as it could as well been a bear he brought back, on his heels!)
In fact, you are not allowed to bring a dog on rides in the National Parks, for that very reason. It is very natural for a dog, that encounters a bear or that cow elk, who most likely had a calf in those trees, to then run back to you and the horses, bringing that critter with him!
There are trails I do not look down on, as I am afraid of heights, and had a near accident once. Riding a very steep narrow trail, with a sheer drop off on one side, and a rock wall on the other, my horse stumbled to his knees. Had he panicked, jumped up immediately, we would have been over that edge, with time to say most of the Lord;s prayer on the way down

Instead, Frankie knelt there, while I stepped off on the off side, then he rocked back onto his rear end, got his front legs back under him, and thus avoided going over the edge


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

flytobecat said:


> I feel for you.
> My buckskin, Mona was a ex-ranch horse and had been a line pony.
> She has tons of trail miles, and is a spook and spin horse. I got pretty good at reading her, but every once in while I would get caught off guard. That is how my rotator cuff got torn.
> My grey, Willow is much more honest about her reactions and easier to read. I've been told by trainers, that Mona is reactive. She spooks first and then her brain catches up.
> ...


Watch the larry Trocha video I posted. Also, teach the horse to spook in place.
You are never going to stop a horse from spooking completely from some sudden unexpected deer,grouse or whatever, pops out of the woods, but you can teach a horse to dampen that reaction, so he learns to spook in place , and face the object, versus trying to spin and leave


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Talked to the ranch this afternoon. Said yeah, the bending is to prevent a bolt. Bending at speed is how the stunt guys in the movies get'em to wreck. Nodded approval on the pulley stop.

I'll be stopping by a Goodwill soon when I go shopping in Prescott. Should be a good selection of cheap remote control toys there. I think it'll be interesting to set up a remote controlled obstacle course through a wooded trail adjacent to my compound.

As a precaution, I'll use slow settings and just lead with a stiffer non-tangle lead rope. And when he doesn't shy but only braces or spooks in place, he gets rewarded. I think perhaps the most important thing I've gotten from Tom Dorrance's book so far is, "The horse will never know he did something right unless you tell him".

When/if he gets real good at one spot, I'll then try it mounted.

Anyone ever hear of remote control toys being used like this?

If it looks like it'll work I'll be expecting to be doing it for the next 100 days or more. Then Hondo will be 100% perfect, for me.

Then I can go to work on me for him


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_I am not someone that advocates bittless, riding a horse in a snaffle forever, but I am one to insist on going to acurb for finesse , not control, to know you need total body softness..._
_ Bits are rated as to severity , with the hands on those reins being a constant, otherwise no grading would be possible._
_ Thus, using that criteria, you will not find one reference that infers a curb is less severe than a snaffle._"​We'll have to agree to disagree. But I'd love to know how you can "_insist on going to acurb for finesse , not control_". Who made you the judge of horses and how horses are ridden? If top jumpers, polo players, people like Tom Roberts, etc can find a curb can help control an excited horse, then by what right do you get to insist they are forever wrong?

If you only wish to use a curb bit for finesse, that is your business. But I find it odd that your experience is supposed to be valid, while mine is invalid. Mia took to a curb bit like a duck to water, yet that was the wrong thing for her? I should have insisted she learn in a snaffle, because....why? I can point to a marginally trained horse who learned a big dose of calmness in weeks in a curb, yet I should have kept her in a snaffle and in an arena...because you say so?"_Bits are rated as to severity , with the hands on those reins being a constant_"​Really? Who does these ratings? And why should I pay attention to them if they reflect a total lack of understanding on the mechanics of a bit?

Just how do you rate a bit? Apply a steady load of 12 lbs on each rein forever? That would ruin any horse using any bit - or bitless. That is kind of the point: You cannot separate severity in bits from how they are used by the rider. Nor can you separate it from the horse's preference.

I can find "ratings" that say a Waterford bit is severe. My horses all seem to like Waterford bits. If I could only own one snaffle, it would be a Waterford - because I haven't met a horse yet who did poorly in it. It provides an even pressure - not mostly tongue, not mostly bars, but very even from what I can tell against the back of my hand. My horses all move very relaxed in one.

So who gets to say it is "harsh", if the horse disagrees? Who are you to rate a curb bit as harsh, when I've hurt Mia's face with a sidepull halter and hurt her mouth with a french link snaffle, but never seen any sign of discomfort using a Billy Allen curb?

Why not keep one's options open, and use the bit (or bitless) that makes the horse happy - and controllable?

If someone thinks curbs are harsh or cruel, they need to look to their hands and how they ride - because even I can use one gently, on a barely green broke horse.

Hondo is welcome to go bitless, if it works - and it seems to work very well for some horses. But why pretend the only gentle bit is a snaffle bit? It is the hand that is gentle and responsive - or not. Try a few options, and let the horse decide. They have pretty good sense about what works for them...

"_You have prove to the horse that you can control his feet_"

When I took lessons, one of the points made by the instructor is that no rider "controls the feet". We are not wired into the muscles that move the feet, so we do not control them. We can influence the mind that controls the feet, but we do not control the feet ourselves. It is an important distinction. The horse always has a vote. Many will almost never choose to cast a vote, while others cast them frequently - but every horse has a vote, because horses control their feet. We do not. We only influence the mind that does control the feet.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Tom Roberts. Interesting! Horse control and the bit.: Tom Roberts: 9780959941302: Amazon.com: Books

And Scot Macgregor sure gives him rave reviews.

Quote:This is a short book that talks about hand pressure and the design of the mouth of the horse. It covers how the bit works in the horse's mouth and how the bit rests on the bars of the mouth. If you want to ride your horse better this book is the best first book to read out there. I have been a profesional trainer winning over 35 National Championships with horses that I have trained and I based my training on Tom Roberts 4 books. I hope for the sake of the horse world that these books will be reprinted.

And based on Scot's website, he appears to really have those 35 nationals.

What It Is To Be a Trainer

So much for a beginner to sort through............


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Hondo said:


> I'll be stopping by a Goodwill soon when I go shopping in Prescott. Should be a good selection of cheap remote control toys there. I think it'll be interesting to set up a remote controlled obstacle course through a wooded trail adjacent to my compound.
> 
> As a precaution, I'll use slow settings and just lead with a stiffer non-tangle lead rope. And when he doesn't shy but only braces or spooks in place, he gets rewarded. I think perhaps the most important thing I've gotten from Tom Dorrance's book so far is, "The horse will never know he did something right unless you tell him".
> 
> ...


How do you plan to use a remote control device and lead or ride your horse? Don't you need your hands to control the controller that controls the remote device? If you are paying attention to what the device is doing, can you really pay attention to what the horse is doing at the same time?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Tom Roberts. Interesting! Horse control and the bit.: Tom Roberts: 9780959941302: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> And Scot Macgregor sure gives him rave reviews.
> 
> ...


Tenn> Walkers , and the big lick-I won't even go there, except to say long shanked bits are used with contact, not to mention the history of soring.
Nope- I won't be reading those books!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I've got all four of Tom Robert's "Horse Control" books. They are excellent. Tom Roberts was the youngest certified riding instructor ever in the British Army. He was an avid polo player and was one of the founders of the Dressage Club of South Australia. My favorite of his books is "Horse Control - The Young Horse". I need to re-read it now that Mia has been swapped out for Brandy/Branded/Bandit...a 7 year old horse who will be a totally different experience than Mia.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, we will continue to diagree.
AS I noted, there are adrenaline type activities where some people use not only a curb, but two hands on that curb bit, and i did mention that fact, working a horse at speed, but you are talking of a recreational trial riding horse, not a polo pony, of a jumper (I believe Hicksted jumped in a mechanical hackamore
I am talking of a western training program, for recreational riding and judged performance events, where a horse is started in a snaffle or a bosal, and then by age 6 , is expected to be up in a curb, shown one handed and on a loose 
rein
If you go back to my other posts, you will see that I did mention that curbs are used in many speed events, and western, only in games can you show two handed on a curb. 
Thus western, yes, you go to a curb for finesse,, allowing you to show your horse one handed, with very light rein signals, on a horse that received the proper education in a snaffle.
Working cowhorse, still has the Vaquero tradition of starting a horse in a bosal r snaffle, then riding with two reins, one set for the Spade bit or Mona Lisa, and the other for a thin bosal. Only when that horse is very very light, is he ridden off of the Spade bit alone-and yes, that Spade bit is for finesse,
You don't need to give me references for bits from a discipline that uses strong constant contact and where things like soring and pressure shoing was, and still is used, thus The BIG Celebration was cancelled for several years in a row, as most of the horses could not past soring inspection, once that practice was made illegal
I ride western, where a horse is expected to work one handed and on a loose rein, once he is in a curb. I am not cross country jumping, playing polo, or running barrels, and neither are you

I will give you a reference of my own.
Bob Avila wrote a series on bits and their functions.
He has not just won World titles in his own breed association, but open NRHA reining, NRCHA working cowhorse, plus won Wolrd;s greatest Horseman twice

BIT-OLOGY

The idea of going to a curb, western, for finesse is a known accepted fact by any credible training program, though of course, the incorrect use of acurb is very often seen.
Maybe BSM, you should actually take some western clinics , by professionasl successful in the industry, before deciding that the concept that IDEALY< western go go to a curb because the horse has the education in a snaffle in order to be ridden correctly in a curb-one handed, and on a loose rein, is not correct


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> Yes, we will continue to diagree....The idea of going to a curb, western, for finesse is a known accepted fact by any credible training program, though of course, the incorrect use of acurb is very often seen.
> Maybe BSM, you should actually take some western clinics , by professionasl successful in the industry, before deciding that the concept that IDEALY< western go go to a curb because the horse has the education in a snaffle in order to be ridden correctly in a curb-one handed, and on a loose rein, is not correct


1 - Tom Roberts did not do Big Lick. He was British Army, then lived in Australia.

2 - Lots of bad poop on how curbs work is floating around. For example, apart from the "leverage to cause pain" nonsense, many will tell you a curb bit applies poll pressure. It either does not, or it is negligible. But a surprising number of people have never put their fingertips under the poll strap to see how it feels...

3 - It worked for me & Mia. Might not work at all well for a different horse or rider. But the fact that a green rider and green horse could make it work very well for them suggests it is not as hard as you make it seem. A horse does not need to perform beautifully in a snaffle before learning a curb. I know because I taught a horse to behave in a curb and then had it carry over to a snaffle. Depends on the horse & rider.

But if I could do it, with Mia, then it is obviously possible.

4 - "_Bits are rated as to severity , with the hands on those reins being a constant, otherwise no grading would be possible._
_ Thus, using that criteria, you will not find one reference that infers a curb is less severe than a snaffle._"

No person who understands bit and bitting will create a scale of severity in bits without referencing how the horse is ridden, the rider and the horse. I don't rate a bit for severity. I try it and let the horse rate it. I just try to listen to the horse.

What the OP needs is something he'll have to figure out. In many ways, from reading all his posts on this thread, it sounds like a curb may NOT be a good match. That is OK.

I've got John Lyon's book where he recommends a single joint full cheek snaffle for every horse. He's full of horse pucky. I've read another clinician's famous piece on Tom Thumb bits. While I don't like Tom Thumb bits, I tried one and could not replicate anything that well known clinician said about them.

George Morris has more knowledge of horses in his fingernail clippings than I have in my body. He recommends a double twisted wire snaffle for a bolter, AND knowing how to do a pulley rein stop! I'd strongly recommend a Billy Allen curb instead. I've never stuck any kind of twisted wire bit into my horse's mouth, but I've caused her pain doing a pulley rein stop. Never saw a sign of pain using the Billy Allen.

No clinician could make what I did and saw using a curb bit invalid. And while it is an older book, focusing mostly on English bits, a person who wants to understand bits ought to buy "Horse Control - The Bit". The book on 'the young horse' also has a good discussion on bits.

For the OP:

The best hour discussion of bits I know of is free, from a fellow forum member:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAJDfj1iOuU&list=UUU7PYYaPkTOE2D5kF7OxdRA&index=11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTyM22UU6CY&list=UUU7PYYaPkTOE2D5kF7OxdRA&index=10


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## Liligirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Woa by the sounds of it some of you ride over terrain that makes my stomach drop! 

I asked to go on a sheep mustering day with our neighbours son. He said sure if you can handle riding up/down around cliffs with such a tight path he often just puts the reins over the horses neck and sits as quietly as he can.

Ah not for me I think eek


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Horse Poor said:


> How do you plan to use a remote control device and lead or ride your horse? Don't you need your hands to control the controller that controls the remote device? If you are paying attention to what the device is doing, can you really pay attention to what the horse is doing at the same time?


My thoughts are to improvise pulleys on the wheels of a small remote controlled vehicle which will be used to drag a plastic bag up into a tree or out of the bushes and across the trail. I will only be turning it on as I approach and then off with the remote. Full attention will be on the horse's reactions. A startle in place will receive lavish praise as in the "spook in place training" described by Lyons.

I like the concept of training on the trail rather than the round pen where I'm taken out of the role of producing the scary thing, in the horse's mind. I will be, but he won't know it.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Hondo said:


> ....
> Then I can go to work on me for him


That's a cool attitude!


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Yep, as stated in my opening paragraph, "I'm beginning to think it may only be a matter of time before I am seriously injured."
> 
> But at this point, I would need to give up horse back riding altogether, after just having really fallen (no pun intended) for it.
> 
> ...


I haven't read all the posts so I apologize if I am repeating what has been said.

Is 73 old when you're 73? I think not, it's just a number. Keep riding.

The first thing that I question about the falling off during spooks is your position. Are your feet under you or pushed forward? If your feet are too far forward when a horse spins your butt becomes like the point of a top & you essential spin yourself off. If you were my riding buddy I'd keep nagging you to glance down at your feet without leaning forward & if you see more than just your toes, bring your whole leg back from the hip. Practice standing up then sitting straight down into the saddle using your legs. That will keep your base under you, as if standing on ground. Your butt is a pivot point if your legs are too far forward.

As Hondo doesn't run off I suggest you learn where that horn is & use it first before trying to gather him up.

Do you have a picture of yourself on Hondo?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

natisha said:


> Is 73 old when you're 73? I think not, it's just a number. Keep riding.


That's my intent:0)

As mentioned, don't have a horn but have a nice small pommel on my endurance saddle to grab hold of.

I do stand up in the trot or gallop and rise fairly straight I think. I'll be checking.

And as mentioned previously, I think what happens, (don't have full recollection of any of the three get-offs), is that I get a little loose in the spin to the opposite side of the spin, then when he lurches forward I'm out of balance and go off the side and back.

And also as mentioned, until startle/spook in place training is successfully achieved, I will be riding with left hand and fingers draped lightly over and around said pommel with loose ends of split reins underneath for a quicker reaction time. I prefer my left hand in the air for balance but I'll just have to get used to having it on the pommel. Also plan to experiment with a bucking strap as mentioned.

I'll check my toes to see what I can see. No pictures of me on Hondo at this time except at a distance posing for pictures which would not necessarily be a riding pose.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms, watched both vids. Thanks. Very educational, but I'll likely stay bitless. I was reminded that a horse learns nothing from rein pressure but only from the release. Beginners need constant reminder of that.

I also noticed he said the main reason for going to a shank was to be able to show but I also perked my ears when he said they "could" be used to punish when a horse decided to be a "knothead".

Won't be free however when my Verizon bill comes in 

Smilie, gave up on getting a library card to read the Bob Avila article.

The big question that is rolling around in the back of my mind about bits, or bitless for that matter, is this. If the horse knows what is being asked, what difference does it make anyhow? And if he knows and doesn't respond, isn't that clearly a training issue?

I'm sure those are dumb questions from a novice newbie but if I don't expose my ignorance I may end up staying ignorant.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I watched Larry Trocha's video.
I actually do most of the things he says. Lucky me I have the first kind of horse that spooks when something darts out of bushes. 
Most of the bad spooks have happened close to my house where. So I think she may have been napping some or maybe I was. 
I can testify that one rein pully works in emergencies, but your horse has to be trained to respond to that. The trick is to build up your muscle memory so that you react before they build up enough momentum to bolt. Unfortunately, my reaction time is about 2 second's slower than my horse's.
I don't necessarily agree with turning a horse to face something all the time. There are certain situations where that isn't safe to do.
I'm unbalanced anyway due to my knee injury, but working on my own balance and flexibility really helped. Also, getting a different saddle made a huge difference. My new saddle has a smaller seat so I don't slide as much and also the stirrups are set so that you sit back further.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

Hondo said:


> The big question that is rolling around in the back of my mind about bits, or bitless for that matter, is this. If the horse knows what is being asked, what difference does it make anyhow? And if he knows and doesn't respond, isn't that clearly a training issue?
> 
> I'm sure those are dumb questions from a novice newbie but if I don't expose my ignorance I may end up staying ignorant.[/QUOTE
> For me the "bit" is a crutch for me. I feel more in control which I think effects my horse. But the reality is I have stopped both bucking and a bolt in my bosal.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

flytobecat said:


> I watched Larry Trocha's video.


Me too. Ya know what I'd like to see? I've watched so much stuff in a round pen of people tipping their horses head to the side, I'd like to see a video of a horse in terror being tipped with them wild eyed and jumping around all over. I can tip Hondo's head lightly no problem in training. But when he tips his head to me pointing one wild eye at me that says, "Harold we're gonna die!", is tense and prancing all over, it just seems a little different somehow. Now that would be a video I'd download, save, study and watch over and over.

Maybe when I get the remote things going I can get someone to ride Hondo with me hiding with a camera for a REAL demonstration.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

^^^ I know all these training videos are in a nice safe arena  Where are the rattlesnakes and deer jumping out of the bushes


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Ok, searched for "spooked horse" on YouTube. Good one with a kid shown slow motion. Looked like what I do except I've come off 3 times where the kid rode it out.

Spook at a white donkey shows a good bit of violent riding and the aftermath. I'll be watching more of those. I think they are much better than stuff in a round pen although the kid was in a round pen.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> ...I've watched so much stuff in a round pen of people tipping their horses head to the side, I'd like to see a video of a horse in terror being tipped with them wild eyed and jumping around all over...


If it has been done enough in an arena, then it becomes like muscle memory to the horse. No thought involved, just an "instinctive reaction" to the cue. And ultimately, that is what you desire from any cue - a conditioned response so strong that it will hold even when the horse dumps its brain.

Yes, I've been on Mia when she was "rolling her eyes like a slot machine" according to my daughter, and jumping and spinning and it sure didn't look like anything folks put on video - but she would still give me her head laterally.

I recently redid my sink and faucet in the kitchen. I looked at some DIY videos first. Nice, clean looking guy smiling as he stood beneath the sink, moving part X with his finger. When I tried it, I was wedged in beneath the garbage disposal, gunk falling in my eyes, my back wet, eventually wedging in a screwdriver and hammering it to break a part free. I wasn't smiling. I cussed so much my wife left the house. Three trips to the local hardware store - the part that came with the faucet didn't reach or match my house's pipes.

It doesn't matter if it is horses or plumbing - the YouTube guy showing how to do things never has that "OMG, what am I doing here" look, never expects to die and never finishes with 800 mg of Motrin & a hot bath while his wife laughs at him for moving like he is 127 years old...:wink:

BTW, Hondo - I'm thinking of buying a nice leather sidepull for the new horse. I've got a feeling he would do fine in one.


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## jamesdean57 (Feb 2, 2013)

bsms said:


> If it has been done enough in an arena, then it becomes like muscle memory to the horse. No thought involved, just an "instinctive reaction" to the cue. And ultimately, that is what you desire from any cue - a conditioned response so strong that it will hold even when the horse dumps its brain.
> 
> Yes, I've been on Mia when she was "rolling her eyes like a slot machine" according to my daughter, and jumping and spinning and it sure didn't look like anything folks put on video - but she would still give me her head laterally.
> 
> ...


:rofl::rofl:

That is funny but so true.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Haven't read everything, but wanted to throw in my opinion since my horse was like this and now isn't.

At 73, you need a reliable horse.

My opinion is that you should stop riding and do a LOT of groundwork to establish yourself as leader, and desensitizing to retrain his preferred spook reaction. Hondo does not see you as his leader. If he did, he wouldn't be so concerned about his own well-being that he needs to stay on watch all the time. IMO, you need to firmly establish yourself as leader and retrain his spook reaction. He may always have some spook in him, but you need to drive that lesson home in him that he needs to be mindful about doing the bolting and spinning because he knows you will get after him if he does. 

My horse was like this and to some extent is, but not nearly as much as he used to be. He used to bolt and spin and all that. Now he will do a little skitter or a spook in place, because he KNOWS that certain behaviors result in unpleasantness for him. He made that connection that bolting = Bad Things. Is he 100% bombproof? No. He never will be. But he's leaps and bounds better than he used to be and still continues to improve.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think grabbing the horn, can in fact, upset your position, as mentioned by Larry Trocha.
BSm, we will continue to regard the reason for using a curb differently, esp since my primary discipline is western, where a horse 'should' graduate to a curb
If is works in your case great. Curbs, English, from what I understand, are mainly used with a double, bridle
Far as military horses-yes they had to face cannon fire, be often trained in a rather short time, as the same canons ate up horses, and the troops themselves, often came for recruits that never even rode a horse, before being drafted
Yup, if I was riding cross country, into cannon fire, 'had' to ride ahorse that pulls, curb and two hands would most likely be my choice
However, I have the opportunity and time to have trained my horses correctly in a snaffle, and then had them graduated to a curb
However, if you have 'spoiled ; horse, not one that is just strong in the bridle, but one that either bucks or bolts, you have a differnt situation than riding an upper event horse , or a war horse, that naturally gets 'strong' , given the excitement
Thus , even using comparisons where curbs are used for 'more response', you are not really making a correct comparison, in regards to a spoiled horse that needs re schooling

So, lets get back to the Op's question, and that is on ahorse that spooks, and which you said Mia also did, and then fear bolted. This is not the same as a horse that gets strong, when working at speed.So, bits are immaterial, as the true problem is confidence, and yes controlling th efeet, as in this videro by Clinton Anderson Note, that the horse in question, also goes fin ein the arena, but the spooking happens outside, and how Clinton works on moving the feet
Yup, he is using a snaffle, even though he does rein with a curb
So, if we are going to get into bits, lets discuss that topic, and then give me good references where going to a curb, on a horse that spooks, then bolts, is recommended, as that is what this topic is about, and not how curbs are used on horses that just get strong, working at speed.
You might not see the difference, but there is a huge one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfAvpa1g68s


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms, I agree with muscle memory. Many years ago I read a book titled "Inner Skiing" where the way kids learn was discussed. Kids gawk, eyes, mouth, and mind wide open. Stuff goes straight to their muscles.

The author quipped that it was provident that kids were designed to learn to walk before they learned to talk as otherwise they might receive so much verbal instruction that they might never learn to walk.

But here is the type visuals for muscle memory that I want.

I downloaded Spooked Horse from white donkey on Youtube, removed all except the exciting stuff, then did a second segment in slow motion. I'll watch it over and over and plan to do more.

I put the slow motion back on YouTube. https://youtu.be/VQ1tFuMHzQY

A little fuzzy on YouTube but I have it in high def. She's riding English with curb bit and two handed rein. If I could ride that good I'd have no worries.

A far cry from the round pen demonstrations!!!

DancingArabian, if you'd read anything at all you'd know that two very advanced riders have ridden this horse with the same problems occurring. It took the most advanced, and I mean advanced, rider almost two years to decide to switch horses.

In reading posts on various problems it seems to almost be a reflex for some to say, "I think you have a trust issue". Maybe so, but some of the experiences with Hondo that I have posted suggest otherwise to me, and also to others that have read them."

But I do appreciate the reminder to keep looking at trust.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Hondo said:


> bsms, I agree with muscle memory. Many years ago I read a book titled "Inner Skiing" where the way kids learn was discussed. Kids gawk, eyes, mouth, and mind wide open. Stuff goes straight to their muscles.
> 
> The author quipped that it was provident that kids were designed to learn to walk before they learned to talk as otherwise they might receive so much verbal instruction that they might never learn to walk.
> 
> ...



I did read that other, more advanced riders have given up on him. That doesn't address what I think the problem is, which are confidence and trust. If you (general you) do not take the time to establish confidence and trust in your horse, it does not matter how long you (general you) own/ride said horse. If you see the same person standing in line for coffee every morning for 2 years, do you automatically trust that person to help you out of what you feel is a bad situation? You might trust them a smidge more than someone you've never seen, but is that absolute trust there based on that history? A lot of "advanced riders" put zero effort into their groundwork and relationship with their mount. It has nothing to do with riding ability, but the amount of time and affort you devote into building a working relationship. Some horses need that. Some horses are just fine to do their job with just about anyone on their back, and some aren't.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Trust with horses: When I was on the ground, Mia had a ton of trust in me. Anytime she was scared, she would try to come to me. Then she would put her head against my chest and wait for me to take care of her.

On her back...I think she forgot I was there.

The one time I went flying was when I dismounted while she was scared without trying to get her connected to me first. She exploded while my right foot was above her rump, and I went flying like I was in an ejection seat. She took off. The moment I got air in my chest again, I started cussing her - by name. She had gone across a rock field, spun a few times, then turned and started off in another direction, but was only about 100 feet from me. When she heard me, she spun and ran back to me. I thought I was going to be run over. But as I crawled to my feet, she stopped hard and put her head next to my chest.

I could barely move, so I clung to her for support as we made it together back to her corral. Then I slowly limped back to the house. 5 years would pass before I could jog again without pain. 6.5 years later, my back still sometimes hurts when riding.

Did she trust me? Or not? Over the following 6 years, I concluded she trusted me fine when she realized I was there...she just sometimes forgot I was on her back. Don't know if that makes sense or was true. It just seems to be the explanation that most closely matched my experiences with her.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

DancingArabian said:


> I did read that other, more advanced riders have given up on him. That doesn't address what I think the problem is, which are confidence and trust.


Okay DA. Did you read the post where Hondo's herd of 22 stampeded on each side of us passing within 10 feet or less and although turning and certainly fearing for his life Hondo stayed within at least a 10 foot diameter circle with mostly voice commands and a bitless Dr. Cook's?

I will not ague the point any farther with you. Think as you shall.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Trust creates a horse that learns to not just blindly react first, that you won't put him in danger
My son was asked to rescue a well bred horse . Certainly the breeding of that horse was not a factor, as his sire has produced mult world ApHC and NRCA champions, and is known for putting great minds on his offspring
Since my son works for Alberta AG, he has the contacts to know this horse was headed for the meat wagon.
The person who started him, started in in a big shanked curb and spurs. Yes, that person, who considers himself a trainer got that horse sold , as he rode for him
The horse then bucked his new owner off-hard, who then decided he had to be meated
My son put him back in a snaffle and put basics on him. At first, when he got on that horse, he would close his eyes, blank out and buck
He now rides that horse everywhere, and he is an excellent trail horse. He rode him forrthe first year, including in the mountains, in a snaffle



Hondo, I 'm sure that Hondo trusts you most times, and he has just learned that he can spook and spin, versus learning to control his reaction, and that is what you have to work on. As I mentioned, there are many tools for that, and your toy idea might be a great though,but I do believe that after he has spun, following that spook, you have to know that was not acceptable, and boot his shoulders back in the direction of his fear, say whoa, pet him, and give him slack, thus he will know he did the right thing. He should eventually learn to stop doing that spin after the spook, and ****pen the spook reaction itself

Here is "Appy'





To try and further explain, control the feet, which of course , means you also teach the horse to control his mind, and not go into just reactive mode, or, if the horse has a true spook, he does not bolt , spin, buck, and but comes back to you

Controlling feet, does not mean just move and disengage,,it can also mean stand there and don't move, no matter what is going on around them-such as in a halter class.
Controlling feet to me, means re-directing them also, as Clinton shows, versus stiffening up and bolting
This thread is about a horse that spooks and then spins, jumps a few strides and then stops
There are many people, and not just NH trainers, not discipline specific, not training a gaited horse just to go down that trail, that even start those gaited horses in shankled bit, or bits you might wish to use in some area of competition, but rather in advising people how to re-train a horse that spooks, or balks , or rears , bucks or tries to bolt
All of them focus on gaining trust, body control, able to re -direct those feet, maintain the thinking side of their brain, after that panic. 
The focus is not on the bit, but rather on gaining body control, able to re-direct those feet, teaching ahorse to dampen his inborn spook and flight programing-and yes, that comes through trust, not after the fact, but right when that spook trigger happens
Charlie use to be very reactive. Didn't help that another horse ran backwards and slammed into in a warm up arena
First few times that I rode her out alone, when she got scared, was to try and spook big, then maybe try to throw in a buck
I went back, put some more body control on her, and certainly riding her more,getting that trust in my leadership helped. She now has learned to control her spooks to just a startle, even when several deer jumped out of the woods directly in front of us-so yes, that trust, along with body control, is what allows you to ride safely.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> Trust with horses: When I was on the ground, Mia had a ton of trust in me. Anytime she was scared, she would try to come to me. Then she would put her head against my chest and wait for me to take care of her.


Well, he has always waited for me. He has never put his nose in my chest in those time but he has always been looking at me. And allows me to remount without protest.

In my yard pen when he gets worried about something he will settle down and go back to grazing if I stand nearby or sit nearby. If I leave he follows me until he's settled back down.

I guess I need to tell the third generation person that was born on this 100+ year old ranch and rode Hondo for almost two years that they should have continued with Hondo and just solved her trust problem.

On second thought, YOU tell her. She is the lead b....mare around here. Or maybe I can get DA to tell her.

Are we having fun yet?


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

bsms said:


> Trust with horses: When I was on the ground, Mia had a ton of trust in me. Anytime she was scared, she would try to come to me. Then she would put her head against my chest and wait for me to take care of her.
> 
> On her back...I think she forgot I was there.
> 
> ...


I can't make a sweeping generalization that would be fair to you or your horse based off that one incident. However, I know that sounds like a cop-out.

I would say that based off that story of your experience, I would guess that there were holes in Mia's trust and confidence.

My horse has holes in his trust and confidence - it's not a one and done thing for many horses.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Okay DA. Did you read the post where Hondo's herd of 22 stampeded on each side of us passing within 10 feet or less and although turning and certainly fearing for his life Hondo stayed within at least a 10 foot diameter circle with mostly voice commands and a bitless Dr. Cook's?
> 
> I will not ague the point any farther with you. Think as you shall.



A Dr Cooks is NOT a gentle thing. If I bitted up my horse I bet I could get him to stop running off really easily. As a matter of fact, I once tried a Dr Cooks on my horse and he got so angry, I had to emergency dismount while he went around bucking like a lunatic.


I don't know why you seem so offended that there might be holes in his trust and confidence. He's a HORSE. Just because he stands nicely to be groomed and comes to the gate or whatever doesn't mean that that transfers over to each and every other activity with you absolutely. It *does* help, however.

My *suggestion* would be for you to try doing some obstacles on the ground and develop your working relationship in scary situations as a team. Has anyone ever tried that with Hondo? He has to learn that he can rely on you when he's scared, and a more appropriate way to express his fear. Obstacles do this in a safe-ish, controlled manner.

I'm not attacking you. I don't think you're stupid. I don't think your horse is awful and should just be sold. I'm just telling you what worked for, and continues to help with my horse, who had the same problems.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Since my son works for Alberta AG, he has the contacts to know this horse was headed for the meat wagon.


Hondo was headed for the meat wagon. That's the only reason I have him. And he was the first horse I have ever had the opportunity to own and possibly my last.

Hondo would not lead over a few feet with a slack loop in the lead a year ago. He would not stand for mounting without a hassle. When mounted he'd take off without being asked. No one could touch either of his ears.

He does none of those things with me now and I can run my forefinger way down inside each ear.

He has come miles and miles with me. I think I must be doing at least SOMETHING correctly.

I have only now decided to hit the spin/bolt thing head on as it does not appear to be going away by itself. I will begin by training from the ground on a course set up on a trail as described.

I will of course continue to deepen the trust I have already established and will strive to improve, maintain, and deepen that trust I do have for how ever many years we will both be together which will be pretty much til fate forces an end.

I have some tools now. Good tools I think. And a plan, a good plan I think. I really do appreciate ALL of the comments on this thread. Even those that I may not fully agree with still stimulate my thinking to further evaluate and examine my own thinking.

There's a time to cut bait, and there's a time to go fish.

Time to fish.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Well, he has always waited for me. He has never put his nose in my chest in those time but he has always been looking at me. And allows me to remount without protest.
> 
> In my yard pen when he gets worried about something he will settle down and go back to grazing if I stand nearby or sit nearby. If I leave he follows me until he's settled back down.
> 
> ...



Why in the world are you singling me out and why are you so defensive when you're not being attacked?

I'm not attacking you.
I don't think you're stupid.
A rancher who thinks she's the b-mare likely doesn't care to or want to or even have the time to invest more of her limited time on a horse lacking confidence. A LOT of people just go "well there's other horses out there" and let the problem horse go.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Smilie said:


> I believe Hicksted jumped in a mechanical hackamore


For the sake of accuracy, Hickstead jumped in a hackabit which is a combination of a bit and hackamore.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

DancingArabian said:


> ...I would say that based off that story of your experience, I would guess that there were holes in Mia's trust and confidence...


From the ground, Mia was uncommonly trusting of all humans, and particularly so with me. She believed humans did good things for horses. Need to pull a hundred spines out of her butt? She'd stand still and watch. Another time I was leading her thru some dense brush that had me close to my knees. I got feeling vulnerable since she was behind me and had no where to go but over me if she spooked. When I looked back, she was almost on her knees, with her eyes squeezed shut for protection from the brush, inching forward when I would give her a light tug with my fingers.

When she was bolting in the arena repeatedly (well before I switched her to a curb - we did solve that problem in a snaffle), the best way to stop her bolt was to call her name softly: M-I-I-I-A-A-A-A-A-A! When an ear flicked back, she was a couple of strides away from a full stop. It really seemed to me that she sometimes forgot she had a rider, and that was when she would get really scared.

That was an argument in favor of working her feet and constantly giving her something to do, to remind her she wasn't alone. If she slowly got nervous, I could give her enough to do to keep in contact with her. But it is tiring trying to give your horse something to do every 10 seconds...and it was when we were strolling along relaxed that she did most of her sideways jumps or spins.

When the human was on the ground, she was much more trusting of humans than either Trooper or Cowboy. When the human was on her back, they were 10 times more 'trusting' than she was. She didn't need more ground work. She needed to be worked from her back, and preferably have a 'job' to do. That is an advantage to sending her to a ranch. She is more likely to have a job there than as a recreational, backyard rider's horse. Taught correctly, I think she would make a great cow horse.

I honestly think a few wires in her noggin were not connected - as I told her new owner before he offered to swap her. She was sweet, honest, giving...and sometimes it seems there was a short-circuit. She had far more confidence and trust in ANY human, when the human was on the ground, than Trooper. Yet from the back, Trooper is a 'go where pointed' horse while Mia sometimes jumped or spun. Just reporting what I saw.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Hi All,

I was really really hoping to get a few comments on critiquing the rider in the white donkey video. It is somewhat explosive, dangerous, and potentially deadly.

Some specifics on what the rider did right or did wrong in terms of staying mounted would me most helpful to me. I particularly noticed that at some points she seemed to be in the so called fetal position that CA and other have warned about. But in this real life scenario it may be that it was called for. She certainly did seem to be well seated.

It just seems that a video like this would be a valuable teaching tool for those versed and accomplished in this sort of occurrence.

I realize there could be various things on horse or rider that could have led up to this but I'm most interested in what she did on didn't do in terms of staying on and controlling the situation.

The original video: https://youtu.be/LcUdKckcRjw

The version with the slow motion added: https://youtu.be/VQ1tFuMHzQY

Many Thanks,

Harold


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Smilie said:


> I Curbs, English, from what I understand, are mainly used with a double, bridle


Wrong. One example of a curb bit, a pelham bit, is commonly used on show hunters, equitation horses, jumpers and eventing horses.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think the rider was either in the fetal (or, so-called "fatal" position) because the hrose was backing up so fast that she could not stop herself from falling forward. OR, since the horse was backing fast, she worried that if she weighted the hind, he would go down on his hind legs, as, indeed, he did.


first of all, she stayed on. I am pretty certain I would have come off. I am top heavy, and such sort of spinning spooks are always getting me off.

the only thing I would have done, or tried to do if I could , would be to pick up a rein and try to direct the horse to either face the Scary Thing, or at least face at a 30 degree angle or so , and try to get the horse to move FOREWARD, off at an angle . neither straight at the ST , or going away from it, but working forward and zig zagging back and forth, working to getting the horse to be able to stop, and stand facing the ST. 

So, horse can move, but just not in a direction that is fleeing away from the ST.

or, if he must leave, put some distance, let him a little, but soon ask him to swing around and look back to the ST. 

for that, a snaffle works better than a curb, IMO.


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## Liligirl (Jun 9, 2012)

This is so similar to what my mare would do. Except there wouldn't be warning at all. She would just suddenly spin. As I posted a lot earlier I taught us both to one rein. I would literally hold her head in the one rein til she stopped spinning and would relax. I would then let her have her head and turn her back to the scary object.

Actually I just remembered I was out on a trek on a thoroughbred. Not my horse and there were about 30 horses out so I was basically asleep in the saddle. Suddenly a pig jumped out from a fence next to us and by gward their squeals are horrible. Anyway my auto reaction was to one reined this thoroughbred and was amazed he did it and we just spun on the spot I think 3 times and then he relaxed. Although to be perfectly honest I couldn't tell you which one of us shat ourselves more me or the horse.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This is a screen capture during part of it:










I tried to make the line parallel to the straight leg of the horse, which was in line, I think, with the horse's vector at the time of the screen capture. That doesn't look like a fetal position to me, but instead looks like a forward seat during a spook. About half of her weight is in front of the line, and half behind.

I did several freezes, and most seemed like that. Depending on where the horse was moving, she had half of her weight in front of her stirrup and half behind. Given how fast things actually happened, and how violent, I think she did a very good job of keeping her weight balanced over the stirrups and the stirrups under her center of gravity.

Notice how straight her back stays during most of the movement. She isn't rolled over, but keeping her back stiff and her hips flexible so the weight can transfer into the stirrups. She gets thrown a little off balance during the reverse, but only for a moment. She never, ever gives up and rolls into a ball. She stayed on because her lower leg stayed relatively stable, she never quit, and she kept her balance in synch with her horse's center of gravity. I think VS Littauer is smiling from the grave...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I just wanted to add she rode the horse to the end. She never became dead weight. She stayed active. Littauer wrote that riding is about motion, not position. It is about getting the center of gravity of two beings to act like one while in motion. She was always a rider & never a passenger!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Thanks all. Yup, I agree, not hunched at all. But I did watch others seemed to recommend a more upright position. I thought she looked velcro'd all the time with her body in a neutral position all the time. And thanks for the analysis bsms.

So I will try to stick her movements into my muscle memory.

Now here's a little girl whose horse was scared by a chicken. It didn't wheel, just shy'd and bolted. She doesn't fall off but her position is the position I think I've had when I did fall 3 times since Christmas. Once bareback and twice with a saddle. But each time there was the shy, spin, and bolt. I've ridden out many many shys although he hardly if ever does those anymore or the spook in place at butterflies that used to almost jar my teeth. He only does the big bad one now.

I'm thinking a full on fetal position may have been preferable for the little girl, or at least for me, compared to what she did. I'm not so worried about scaring Hondo, I just wanna stay on. I feel confident of controlling him if I stay in the saddle.

I'll be working on a lot of stuff but may well need to ride out a few more before we get through this thing.

Here's the little girl. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJb6tXvaQDY


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^^ That would be 'behind the motion'. For a good read, including position and philosophy of riding, you might enjoy VS Littauer's Common Sense Horsemanship. He wrote from an English riding perspective, but he was my favorite author on riding.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> ^^^ That would be 'behind the motion'. For a good read, including position and philosophy of riding, you might enjoy VS Littauer's Common Sense Horsemanship. He wrote from an English riding perspective, but he was my favorite author on riding.


Ha ha. Too late.:thumbsup: I just completed the one click order on Amazon. We ride two point here at the ranch a lot since the horse may often need to jump without notice so after reading about him I decided it would be a good read.

I joined the forum last September and have spent most of my time over on the hoof forum which is what I came for. With that mostly under my belt now for the care of my own horse, this will be the year of learning to become a little bit of a horseman.

BTW, hat's off to the little kid for staying on!!


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## Audsta (May 25, 2015)

tinyliny said:


> I am sorry, but at your age I would not be riding such an unreliable horse. you may want to keep him, but I think you are risking a broken bone. it is only a matter of time, and which bone.


this is kind of mean to say i think. a true horseman will take the risk, and should assume the risk(s) of owning and riding a horse. it just takes some time to get better. i think a comment like this can really bring someones' hopes down of ever thinking that their horse can be better.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Audsta said:


> this is kind of mean to say i think. a true horseman will take the risk, and should assume the risk(s) of owning and riding a horse. it just takes some time to get better. i think a comment like this can really bring someones' hopes down of ever thinking that their horse can be better.


no no no

tinyliny is just like Hondo. Not a mean bone in her. She is genuinely concerned about me and maybe didn't say it right.

I don't have "hopes" my horse will be better, he WILL be better. I may be and old fool but I'm a stubborn old fool to boot

But all that said, thanks for the support Audsta.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Thanks all. Yup, I agree, not hunched at all. But I did watch others seemed to recommend a more upright position. I thought she looked velcro'd all the time with her body in a neutral position all the time. And thanks for the analysis bsms.
> 
> So I will try to stick her movements into my muscle memory.
> 
> ...


I believe there are a few reasons the girl stayed on. First the spoked occurred during the sit part of the post, so her butt was in the saddle.
Second, she was using the reins as a handle during the spook, most adults don't do that & she is light enough to get away with it.
Third, the pony stopped in a few strides. I don't think she would have stayed on if the pony had continues & made a left turn. The kid has some strong abs, that's for sure.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

natisha said:


> I believe there are a few reasons the girl stayed on. First the spoked occurred during the sit part of the post, so her butt was in the saddle.
> Second, she was using the reins as a handle during the spook, most adults don't do that & she is light enough to get away with it.
> Third, the pony stopped in a few strides. I don't think she would have stayed on if the pony had continues & made a left turn. The kid has some strong abs, that's for sure.


Right. I think at that position is about when Hondo made his spin. Just gotta get hold of that pommel a little faster. Thing is though, the spin bolts that I did ride out were with both hands free with the reins in the right and the loose ends in the left. Went with the horse and never felt loose at all. But on the times I got loose, I got plumb loose.

I'm thinking if the gal with the donkey had ever gotten seriously loose, it would have been all over. But she didn't. I did, three times. That's a lot of action for a newbie to handle for an extended period without a mistake and getting loose.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Just my opinion...
I think your goal would be to develop an independent seat, which basically will allow your seat to more easily and quickly follow the horse while your upper body can do whatever else. Work on your balance, and strength. A lot. Jack up your stirrups to the top hole and ride like that - my instructors called it frog position. It's SUPER hard, but it helps. Also try trot intervals where instead of up-down-up-down maybe you're up-up-down-up-up-down and create other patterns like that where you're up for more than 1 stride, and you can break it up so that it's inconsistent like up for 2, down 1, up for 3, etc. You can also try posting the canter, if you canter, where each stride is either an up or the down of the posting.

Also, if your first instinct is to grab the saddle, you need to work out of that because that can cause the situation to escalate. Don't get me wrong - there's been times where I've made a grab for it too - but that should not be your first reaction. The longer it takes for the horse to get under control, the more time you have to fall off.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I was really really hoping to get a few comments on critiquing the rider in the white donkey video. It is somewhat explosive, dangerous, and potentially deadly.
> 
> ...


The girl did a nice job. When they hit that ditch she stayed centered & gave him his head so he could stay as balanced as possible. Even when his back end went down she stayed where she needed to be. She didn't panic.
The only thing I think was a mistake, although a tiny one & easy for me to say from my chair, was letting him initially stand & stare at the donkey. When they do that you know the next move isn't going to be dropping their head & relaxing.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

natisha said:


> The girl did a nice job. When they hit that ditch she stayed centered & gave him his head so he could stay as balanced as possible. Even when his back end went down she stayed where she needed to be. She didn't panic.
> The only thing I think was a mistake, although a tiny one & easy for me to say from my chair, was letting him initially stand & stare at the donkey. When they do that you know the next move isn't going to be dropping their head & relaxing.


You are absolutely right. I have the original on my computer and re-watched the first portion several times. I had not realized she actually stopped for a while first. Head up, ears pointing toward (apparently) the donkey.

I wonder what would have happened if she had still been stopped when the donkey came running up to the fence. Pure conjecture I know......

But even if she had not let the horse stop at all don't you think the horse would have bolted anyhow when the donkey came running up?

As a Monday morning quarter back, what should she have done to avoid the spook?

She did ride up to it later. Seems like maybe if the donkey had been standing at the fence, it'd been ok. Seemed like the rapid movement of the donkey was just too much.

Thanks for pointing that out.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

DancingArabian said:


> Just my opinion...
> I think your goal would be to develop an independent seat, which basically will allow your seat to more easily and quickly follow the horse while your upper body can do whatever else. Work on your balance, and strength. A lot. Jack up your stirrups to the top hole and ride like that - my instructors called it frog position. It's SUPER hard, but it helps. Also try trot intervals where instead of up-down-up-down maybe you're up-up-down-up-up-down and create other patterns like that where you're up for more than 1 stride, and you can break it up so that it's inconsistent like up for 2, down 1, up for 3, etc. You can also try posting the canter, if you canter, where each stride is either an up or the down of the posting.
> 
> Also, if your first instinct is to grab the saddle, you need to work out of that because that can cause the situation to escalate. Don't get me wrong - there's been times where I've made a grab for it too - but that should not be your first reaction. The longer it takes for the horse to get under control, the more time you have to fall off.


I disagree with your last paragraph. The first reaction should be to stay on & get balanced. If that means grabbing the saddle or mane so be it. The first move a spooking horse makes is usually the one that initiates a fall even if the fall doesn't happen for a few more seconds. During a spook control is already lost so the next best thing is to get or keep your body centered so you're in a position to regain control. Sometimes doing too much causes a worse spook.
As Hondo Horse only goes a few steps I would want Hondo Man to still be on after those steps.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Hondo said:


> You are absolutely right. I have the original on my computer and re-watched the first portion several times. I had not realized she actually stopped for a while first. Head up, ears pointing toward (apparently) the donkey.
> 
> I wonder what would have happened if she had still been stopped when the donkey came running up to the fence. Pure conjecture I know......
> 
> ...


I can't tell if she stopped her horse or if he stopped himself. Either way it gave him time to decide what to do.

I don't know if the spook could have been avoided & I don't know her horse.
If it were my horse, who once spooked 47 times on a 2 hour ride (yes, I counted) I would hopefully back her more to the side of the road away from the donkey & asked for a side pass to the right while facing the donkey. That way she would still be facing the fear but also still moving from it. Actually I'd move my horse onto the far grass because I have a fear of falling on a hard road.

I think you're right, the donkey approaching was too much, plus it didn't have a very visible fence so who knows what the horse was thinking.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Here is a comment from Tom Roberts that seems appropriate for the donkey situation. It seemed to work well when I tried it with Mia, although it was very counter-intuitive:








​ 
When I became very directive with Mia, getting in her mouth and insisting on taking control, it sometimes made her more worried. As odd as it sounds, when I gave Mia her head and used leg to support her, we might move to the far side of the road. We might not even get past the object if there was very little room, but I could then back her up, dismount, and lead her by. She would still startle for a few seconds, for unknown reasons, but that was different. When she alerted on something, forcing her or being very directive only bought me explosions. Giving her freedom, support with leg and a chance to work it out herself worked better with her.

I think it depends on the horse. Mia was nervous but very honest. Her fears may have been unjustified, but they were always genuine. If room permitted her to go to the far side (usually of a paved road) and edge her way around on a loose rein, the next time would go better, and soon she would ignore the formerly scary thing.

James Fillis (inventor of the Fillis stirrup) wrote:"The impressionability of a horse can be greatly diminished and modified by breaking. Custom establishes mutual confidence between horse and rider. If the animal has not been beaten, or violently forced up to the object of his alarm, and if the presence of his rider reassures him, instead of frightening him, he will soon become steady. It is a sound principle never to flog a horse which is frightened by some external object. We should, on the contrary, try to anticipate or remove the impression by "making much" of the animal.

I have already said that a horse has but little intelligence. He cannot reason, and has only memory. If he is beaten when an object suddenly comes before him and startles him, he will connect in his mind the object and the punishment. If he again sees the same object, he will expect the same punishment, his fear will become increased, and he will naturally try to escape all the more violently....

...My only advice about the management of nervous horses is to give them confidence by "making much of them." If we see in front of us an object which we know our horse will be afraid of, we should not force him to go up to it. Better let him at first go away from it, and then gently induce him to approach it, without bullying him too much. Work him in this way for several days, as long as may be necessary. Never bring him so close up to the object in question that he will escape or spin round ; because in this case we will be obliged to punish him ; not for his fear, but on account of his spinning round, which we should not tolerate at any time. In punishing him, we will confuse in his mind the fear of punishment and the fear caused by the object. In a word, with nervous horses we should use much gentleness, great patience, and no violence." (186) - Breaking and Riding, 1890​The English translation of Breaking and Riding has been in print since being translated in 1902. It is available online free here:

Breaking and riding / - Biodiversity Heritage Library


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

She did a great job staying on, but her big mistake happened before that horse even spooked. She should have been 'riding' way before , when that horse first became concerned. She also lost foreward momentum.
Soon as that horse seemed on the 'muscle head up, she should have asked for his face, providing she had that on him, got him off of the pavement, kept foreward, counter flexing him past that donkey.
That huge spook never should have happened, as that donkey did not juts come suddenly out of some bushes
Yes, she did good staying on, but she could have avoided that big spook to begin with, using body control and some proactive riding, reading her horse.
When a horse tenses ,head up and stares, he is in flight mode, so the first thing you do is get his face and his attention back on you.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I just watched the first part again, but that is the important part-and because she failed to be pro active there, she got to demonstrate her riding ability!
Not only did she let the horse stop, and stare at the donkey, but she set him up perfectly to spook away in the direction he wanted to go
With the head towards that donkey, and shoulders thus in the opposite direction, she set him up to being able to run off at that shoulder, spooking hard to the right.
Instead, soon as she saw her horse concerned, she should have gotten his head and poll, counter flexed him so shoulders were towards the donkey, , have strong right leg on that horse and kept him going forward.
The only way he then could have spooked is towards that donkey, but most times, positioned like that, a horse will be past whatever concerns him, before he is even aware of it
If I have to ride something out, I do my best to do so, but with body control, and since this was not a sudden unexpected spook, as if that donkey suddenly jumped out on the trail in front of her, she has only herself to blame for not riding, thinking ahead
I posted a great video here once, but can't seem to find it
The trainer had a horse in, that was scared of the turkeys in a/pen, and showed how to ride that horse past those turkeys, by keeping the feet moving


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

natisha says:

"When they do that you know the next move isn't going to be dropping their head & relaxing." Ha ha Well put!

"The first reaction should be to stay on & get balanced." Another great comment with which I totally agree.

"Actually I'd move my horse onto the far grass because I have a fear of falling on a hard road." I was sort of leaning that direction but Smilie's seems to have other ideas.

Good stuff bsms. I of course now have Fillis's book downloaded. Short story. We once had a bird, not a parakeet, forgot exactly. It would get out of it's cage at times and it was difficult getting it back in. Finally, the door was just left ajar figuring we'd just clean up when and if necessary. Within just a few days, the bird started spending all of it's time in the cage. Very seldom left. Less often than it had escaped previously. I guess it just wanted to be able to escape if needed. Sort of like when I feel uncomfortable when no automobile is available even though I don't wanna go anywhere.

I'd read the account of going by the carts before. Don't know if you posted it or read somewhere else. Very interesting.

Smilie, I'm confused, not that it's unusual. I and natisha were both thinking about getting off the pavement, away from the donkey and also safer terrain. In your first post, you seemed to be thinking the same. Doing two things, moving off plus getting the horse's attention back on the rider.

And this newbie doesn't know what counterflexing is. Cursory search did not turn up anything. So more on "kept foreword, counter flexing him past that donkey" please.

And on your second post it sounds like you would stay on the pavement and ride right past. After I learn what the conterflexing would be doing, I'm guessing the "right leg" would have just been pressing as in asking for a side pass toward the donkey?

All,
Once the movement has started with Hondo, I do think natisha has it nailed, for my situation at least. First stay mounted!

I've been thinking this all the time while reading and listening about bending and turning etc. Hondo never has left the scene whether I'm mounted or not. Most times his flight travel is 50 foot or so. If I can just ride out the initial shy, wheel, and acceleration surge, I'm good. I can get his mind back on me if needed. But unless something is really chasing us, he'll stop anyhow and then we can talk about it. If a lion really is after us I'll let him run!

But the other day when he apparently woke up from a snooze when the nearby cow moved a little, he did look for a very short time. I was thinking that he was thinking, "Hey look, a cow". Big mistake. I had a window, very small window but a window never the less.

The cow was at some elevation and to the right maybe half a football field away. Or maybe a 1/4 field away.

I know I should have been riding with his mind alert and on me and his surroundings, but since I wasn't, what should my actions have been when he swung his head up towards the cow? Pull his head away from it? What about turning back down the road away from the cow until he collected his thoughts and realized it was just a cow in his rearview mirror? Or just bend his head a little to the left and kept trucking forward?

With the donkey, I'm not sure Hondo would have spooked, unless I was allowing him to nap and he didn't notice it until it came running up. When he see's stuff ahead of time and out of the danger zone for a while he seems to figure it out and be fine. So again, with him, it's the stuff that is on top of him before he first sees it, whether asleep or when it is hidden and becomes viable. With only one notable exception that I won't go into here, not at least at this time.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

No, sorry, I never intended in either post to imply staying on the pavement, when you have the choice not to. Not only is the chance of being hurt more, should you come off on pavement, but you do not have the traction, in order to have a 'discussion' with you horse
In fact, there was lots of room to work on getting your horse's attention back on you, as mentioned by Larry Trocha. When that horse tenses up, seeing a possible spook, you have to get that horse's mind back on you
You can use either or, depending on room, situation, or both

As you probably know by now, a horse follows his shoulders. Yes, in training w eteach a horse to follow his nose, BUT, when 'push comes to shove', if a horse wants to run off, spook, unless you get control of those shoulders, he can still run off
The getting the head down, flex at poll, and counter flex by something scary, is the tool I have, if that trail does not allow me to disengage hips, taking head away, riidng a small circle , etc,or going past that spot at more on an angle,

I will tell you how I use that counter flex. Say, I'm on a steep trail, with a drop off on my left, and thick woods on the other side,(rt) on the base of a mountain slope. On the next level of that climb that the horse can see, sits a huge boulder on the tree side (proverbial 'rock bear', LOL) If the horse stalled out, and tried to spin, you would have a wreak, thus you have to keep foreward. You sure don't want to risk that horse spooking away from that boulder, as he passes, going over the edge
Thus,as I drive that horse forward and past that 'bear rock', I will tip his head slightly to the left, while holding my left leg against his rib cage,and my left rein up against his shoulder. Now, if he were to spook, only direction he can go, is towards that rock, and not over the edge
That girl committed about every error in the books, when seeing a possible spook reaction, reading her horse, looking at something ahead

-there was room, so first thing, get off that pavement
-never, never , let a horse stop and stare at something ahead, tense, head up, but get that head down and keep foreward momentum
_if there is room, do some exercise that gets the horse's mind back on you, because when he is focused on that object/animal, that is where his attention is, and you pretty much have become a non entity on his back, giving him the chance of an executive decision to just follow his flight reaction

_thus, she let him get in flight mode, stop forward momentum, loose his attention on her, plus by letting him turn his head towards that donkey, thus ribcage and shoulders in the direction that the horse wanted to go, she opened an 'virtual door of invitation to do so


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Ps Maybe counter flex is not even the 'correct term;, in Dressage lingo, so I better put in that disclaimer, but it is the best description that I can think of, far as getting control of those shoulders, passing something scary, where there is no room for attention getting exercises

Here is larry's advise, when a horse sees something spooky, far as getting his mind back on you


s soon as the horse sees the scary object, I start schooling him to get him *listening to me* instead of concentrating on the scary object. Keep him *busy* and *moving*.

*Example*: Let’s say you are riding in the pasture and your horse sees a deer off in the distance and starts to spook. I’ll immediately start to trot very small circles and ask the horse to give his head into the circle. I might stop, rollback and trot the other way. I might spin, back up or sidepass. Do anything that will take his mind off spooking. The idea is to keep him busy to get his mind on *you* instead of the scary object. As soon as he’s listening to me and starting to get a little tired, I’ll let him stand and *rest while facing* *the scary object*.
Usually, the horse is more interested in catching his breath than spooking. This teaches him to associate “resting” with “not spooking”. With *most horses* this is all you’ll have to do to address the problem.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here Is the video, far as the body control you need on a horse, before riding out, and what you do to get his attention back on you, and what is meant by riding with legs also-you will never control a horse just by concentrating on what is in his mouth, and that is a certainty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt7QnI0DMM4

I did post about th etime I was riidng my reining mare, down the road, not just on pavement, but with slide plates on the back, but will mention it again.

There was ajack donkey in that pasture along that road, who came towards us-not too bad, but then he started to bray!
First thing I did, was to get my horse into the ditch and off pavement, as with those slide plates, I was bound to go down, whether I could ride out any actions of hers or not, as she was at a big risk in falling herself!
I then got her head, like shown by Larry in that video, , turned her afew times, and then did my verison of acounter flx by that romantic Jack!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Thus,as I drive that horse forward and past that 'bear rock', I will tip his head slightly to the left, while holding my left leg against his rib cage,and my left rein up against his shoulder. Now, if he were to spook, only direction he can go, is towards that rock, and not over the edge


Wow. Now that is really counter intuitive to my "tuitive". Tipping his head in the direction you DO NOT wish him to go with some neck rein on his shoulder pushing him in the direction of scary thing with leg also pushing toward the scary thing. 

I guess tipping his head stops him from looking directly at ST and focus his attention on the rider, but I don't understand how he could not spook away from the rock if he so chose. I do not question it's validity, I just don't know what is going on inside the horse that makes him unable to spook away from the said bear rock.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, in that position, you have what really controls the horse (shoulders and ribs ), to where you would rather have him go, should he decide to go sideways, but he is more set up to just keep going in the direction you want, unable to follow his head in the direction away from rock bear.
Here is an English site, that sort of explains as to what I am doing with that body of the horse, minus the half halts
Horse Listening | Horses. Riding. Life.

Think more of 'holding him, in a body position where he can't spook away from rock bear, continuing going forward, versus actually pushing him towards that boulder
Again, you do need to have that body control on your horse, to, legs etc


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_Now, if he were to spook, only direction he can go, is towards that rock, and not over the edge_"

I thought I'd add a note. I once read that a very dangerous habit a horse could have was going in reverse. At the time, I didn't understand why that could be dangerous. Not long after, I discovered that Mia felt free to throw things in reverse if scared. I took an 8' heavy leather split rein, folded it over, and carried it for an emergency whip. 

Then I tried using it when she went in reverse. I whipped her with that heavy, double leather strap as hard as I could...and the harder I hit her, the faster she went - in reverse. She darn near flew backwards. As we were running out of room behind us, I decided to stop beating her butt. Leaned back, jerked her head around and we did a high-speed 180. When she saw the dead end, she stopped.

Over the course of 7 years, she did that 5-6 times. Once she nearly took us off a 3 foot ledge - not much of a drop, except the rocks at the bottom would have been hard on a horse who didn't know what was coming. And her rider. Another time is was a 6' drop into a wash.

I have no idea how a habit like that develops. She seems to have had it when I got her. If she was afraid of something ahead of her, one option in her bag of tricks was to go backwards, fast, without looking behind her and no matter what I tried. And no, I did not suffer from an excess of gentleness on those times. I doubt a cattle prod would change her direction.

I don't think it is a common thing among horses. No one else I've talked to has confessed to having a horse who would do that. Other than a couple of old books on riding, I've never seen any mention of it.

That is probably one of the reasons I accepted a spin from her. A horse doing a 180 and stopping, or a 360 and stopping, is much less dangerous than a horse going backwards fast and not caring what is behind her.

However, I've read of more than one horse who went off a ledge sideways.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

oOPs, not exactly the right example, as in that case, you have the arena wall, so you can just keep the correct bend, with horse 's head away also from object, but I have ridden counter bend circles in the corner of the arena, when horse is very spooky there, so in essence, doing what I said, and 'WHEN the horse is listening, doing that correct bend circle by that object, as per article above.
Sorry, if I am somewhat confusing you, because some thing I do so automatically, depending on what is going on at the moment, but it all still boils down to the same thing.
You need to have that body control on your horse before heading out, so that he does move off of your legs and so that you can take his head away
Then, how you go by that spooky object depends on the ground, room you have.
Most important, JMO, is that you need to be able to control that entire body, not just the head with a bit, so you can let the horse know you are still in control, able to move those shoulders, take his head, etc, and are also able to position him, in such away that you control where he goes, and that means control of those shoulders


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hi Bsms
Yes, some horses learn to run backwards, when they balk, and as you mentioned, a very dangerous habit, as they then don't care where they are going , as they are running back blindly
That is also why I don't believe in the technique of backing a horse past something he is scared of, when he balks. It might work a tim eor tow, but you are basically just enabling an evasion that he has developed to going forward when he does not want to
Just stopping, is the first thing many horses do, when they do not wish to go where asked.
Some horses will then escalate that refusal by bucking, rearing, or running backwards
It can be a hard habit to break, as obviously, your reins are going to do nothing
Some horses you can get that forward by using a crop, spurs etc, but some, as in your case, just run backwards faster.
All you can do then, is get control of those hips, if there is room, booting them around and then you can take one rein to also get the head
If he has any shoulder control, you can also boot those shoulders around-anything to get so he can't just keep those hocks engaged equally, so he can run straight back


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

PS, Hondo
Sorry, it is the same prinicple, far as that bend.I am now confusing myself!
Was outside doing chores, and thought about it


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

So, an honest question, as perhaps I am not using the correct terminology, far as that counter bend.
I am familiar with using the counter bend, to teach shoulder control, to areining horse, thus you alternate a direct bend circle with a counter bend circle.
The countertbend circle is ridden with head and nose bent to outside of circle, and the direct bend is just having the horse bent correctly around your inside leg, 
Thus, is it better to say I have that horse in a direct bend circle configuration, but riding foreward, and not in a circle, or, since direction of implied circle is not specified, it could also be a counter bend position, riding forward????
Maybe not call it either bend, but just explain body position, as I have done????

Terminology can be confusing at times, as I have had reiners say they were doing a side pass, when in reality it was not a true sidepass, but more of a half pass, just having the horse move off that leg, still going foreward
I just do what works, far as controlling a horse's body, and admit to being rather un informed as to 'classic terminology


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Somewhat off topic, but I don't think Hondo will mind: Mia's replacement (Bandit, I think) went on his first trail ride here. In roughly 2 hours, he never offered a spin, jump or showed any sign of his emotions getting the better of him. Since he's calmer by nature, I tried to follow Cherie's rule: He can look at something if I tell him to, otherwise he needs to keep watching the trail. Unlike Mia, he did fine that way.

However, and I'm sure Smilie will appreciate this: he needs a bunch of arena time to work on body control. He needs to get turns, stops and speed adjustments down to muscle memory with no thought on his part needed. He's much less responsive to cues than Mia, but I never once thought he was close to losing his mind. In riding him today, I realized how defensive I've become riding Mia...


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> Somewhat off topic, but I don't think Hondo will mind: Mia's replacement (Bandit, I think) went on his first trail ride here. In roughly 2 hours, he never offered a spin, jump or showed any sign of his emotions getting the better of him. Since he's calmer by nature, I tried to follow Cherie's rule: He can look at something if I tell him to, otherwise he needs to keep watching the trail. Unlike Mia, he did fine that way.
> 
> However, and I'm sure Smilie will appreciate this: he needs a bunch of arena time to work on body control. He needs to get turns, stops and speed adjustments down to muscle memory with no thought on his part needed. He's much less responsive to cues than Mia, but I never once thought he was close to losing his mind. In riding him today, I realized how defensive I've become riding Mia...


Glad you new horse is working out for you!
There certainly is the factor that some horses make better trail horses than others, as in any event!
You can, with work , get any horse trail ridden, but some are just more 'natural' and enjoyable to do so!
For instance, as I mentioned, Charlie is a reactive horse, so when she saw those wild horses,and being in heat, we had to have some of those attention getting exercises, that I really rather skip at my age, LOL!

Yesterday, I took Carmen, ;my short horse, on an afternoon ride with hubby and for a picnic supper out west
We came across a herd of wild horses, and all Carmen did was look, in fact, I tried to get my camera out fast enough, to get a picture of a young foal in that group, but Mr stud moved his harem off. The entire time, Carmen stood, reins just draped on her neck
Sounds like you will get to enjoy riding this horse out!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Before this thread goes South, I have another burning question.

Suppose I ride Hondo tomorrow and he spooks in place, what we call bracing, at some bird or something.

Should I praise him for spooking in place?

I can think of an argument that it might cause him to spook in place more frequently.

And I can think of an argument that it would have an effect of helping to change the spook, shy, spin, bolt, stop to a spook in place only.

After all, that is the basis of spook in place training.

But that said, I don't really have a clue as to which argument is really the correct one in terms of reducing spook, shy, spin, bolt, stop.

Anybody know........for certain?


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Before this thread goes South, I have another burning question.
> 
> Suppose I ride Hondo tomorrow and he spooks in place, what we call bracing, at some bird or something.
> 
> ...


By spook in place do you mean where the legs kind of spread out & the horse loses about a foot in height?


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I think it is best to just continue forward when your horse spooks in place. I don't pat, praise, I just continue on. I may kinda growl out 'Stoooop it.' But still continue the forward momentum.

I also like smilies advice of counter bending a horse whe he gets a little jiggle about something. Mine will go right past the 'alligator log' pretty as you please if counter bent and being ask to leg yield to it.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

natisha said:


> By spook in place do you mean where the legs kind of spread out & the horse loses about a foot in height?


Exactly. The ranch calls it bracing. Hondo can jar every bone in my body and even my teeth sometimes. He can have a very violent brace.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

natisha said:


> By spook in place do you mean where the legs kind of spread out & the horse loses about a foot in height?


That is what I call "The OMG Crouch"!

For what little it is worth, I ignored it and it became less frequent. It was about 95% gone after a year or so...but it never went entirely away.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

sarahfromsc said:


> I think it is best to just continue forward when your horse spooks in place. I don't pat, praise, I just continue on. I may kinda growl out 'Stoooop it.' But still continue the forward momentum.


That's what I've always done Sarah but after reading John Lyons methods for spook in place training which involves a type of sacking out but praising them if they spook in place got me to wondering if I had been doing the wrong thing.

Spook In Place Lessons Makes Horses Safer to Ride | EquiSearch


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> That is what I call "The OMG Crouch"!
> 
> For what little it is worth, I ignored it and it became less frequent. It was about 95% gone after a year or so...but it never went entirely away.


Same thing here bsms. But in reading John Lyons I'm still wondering if it is wrong to ignore as Hondo has gotten better at the OMG crouch, with no visible improvement on the frequency of movement, startle, shy, spin, bolt, stop, look.

So after thinking about John Lyons methods where spooking in place is rewarded in the round pen, I had to wonder about on the trail.

This seems to me to be a very meaningful, significant, and important question as related to John Lyons Spook In Place training methods.

I should have expanded my question to include that as that was what was on my mind.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

With my horse, if I praised him for an in place spook it would give him more reasons to spook. If we just continue on as if it was no big deal on a loose rein, I hope that translates to him that he can trust me enough to stay with me, and not leave/bolt.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Exactly. The ranch calls it bracing. Hondo can jar every bone in my body and even my teeth sometimes. He can have a very violent brace.


I ignore it or give a "quit." She's very in tune to everything but gives clear signals when something looks suspect, so at those times I can tell what it is & a verbal "it's OK" will do to keep her going. If something gets a lot of her attention I will have her walk up to it & touch it with her nose.
Sometimes she'll see something spook worthy but not really feel like spooking so she'll purposely not look at it again & walk right by. She's a funny one.

She used to do the quick spin so I'm happy with the bracing as it is over almost as soon as it happens. Sometimes there is a little sideways jump added in but nothing I can't sit....so far.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Don't reward the spook in place, reward the "relax" after..... since that is really the behavior you are after.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Don't reward the spook in place, reward the "relax" after..... since that is really the behavior you are after.


Now that makes sense. The article I pasted is not the one I remember where he was rewarding for a spook in place in the round pen. Or maybe I muddled it. I think I have a book coming from Lyons that Smilie recommended.

But yeah, I just wasn't sure about rewarding a spook in place as a way to reduce spook and bolt.

Reining.......how long after the calming supplements did it take for you to notice a clear and significant change?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hi Hondo
The spook in place, does not mean the horse stands like a statue, esp at first when he is learning to control his fears.
In the book, basically that round pen work centers on a horse learning to face his fearful object, versus trying to spin, bolt, etc. Eventually, a horse will then also learn to dampen his reaction, so that the true 'spook in place', will happen, where that horse more or less just flinches
Actually, since Hondo used to try and spin, and leave, once he is standing there , looking at his fear, on a loose rein, instead of trying to leave, I would reward him with a pat. To be clear, not when he is in crouch /brace mode, but when he relaxes and stands there on a loose rein, looking at what spooked him
Conversely, if he were to spin etc, I would first boot his shoulders around hard, back into the direction he was facing when he spooked, tell him 'whoa', and when he relaxes and once again stand there on a loose rein, reward
You have to let a horse know when he did the right thing, and not trying to leave is the right thing. Facing that object, while relaxed, again, is the right thing.
Trying to leave and reverse directions is not the right thing, so you have to 'make the right thing easy, and the wrong thing hard' 
With time, he will learn to truly spook in place, as he gains more confidence, and realizes that pressure is removed, and he is allowed to relax, WHEN he faces his 'monster'


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I saw results within a week with the magnesium. The first symptom that found relief was that he wasn't so skin sensitive anymore that was within a day or two. I could brush him without him seeming to be uncomfortable. Then he started letting me rub on him and even scratch him. The skittishness was the last thing I saw diminish.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I saw results within a week with the magnesium. The first symptom that found relief was that he wasn't so skin sensitive anymore that was within a day or two. I could brush him without him seeming to be uncomfortable. Then he started letting me rub on him and even scratch him. The skittishness was the last thing I saw diminish.


Magnesium only works if the horse is magnesium defficient. Yes, horses that are magnesium deficient are more reactive, but giving a horse more magnesium , if he is not deficient, isn't going to do anything
Worth a try.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Thanks Reining. I'm just getting antsy. I should be getting some results from my pasture clippings soon. I'm hoping for mega low magnesium results. But looking at the user comments which range from great to not so great, it's obvious that the results would vary with the deficiency or not. Just wanted your results. Thanks.

Smilie, the tough thing is that he isn't scared of anything once he has stopped and looked at it. It's just the movement that freaks him out and then it's over.

The times I have played with sacking him he seems to be more concerned about me that the item I'm using. "You okay Harold???"

Haven't got the book yet, but I'll study it and see if it applies. I'm am looking forward to leading him down the nearby wooded trail with planted monsters to observe his responses. Yes, I'll put them in front of me rather than behind Hondo as I don't wanna get run'd over! 

We went on a 14 +/- mile ride today. He made a soft shy at a small bush. I saw a baby rattler there the other day and suspect that's what it was. I thought about it a couple of seconds and could not resist a g'boy and a double neck stroke.

There was a couple of times where I saw a cow stationary looking at us that Hondo had not yet apparently noticed even though fairly close. Asleep? Anyhow, I did what you are not supposed to do. I stopped Hondo, pointed his head toward the cow. His head popped up, "Hey look, a cow", and we mosed onward. I'm figgering that 3 seconds was far preferable to a 3 second spook, spin, plop, owie!

I did concentrate on, (lessening at least), the number of decisions he was allowed to make.

I rode loose as usual but with a loose left hand on the pommel.

My Texas sure nuff cowboy friend says, "Harold, alls ya gotta do is stay loose, keep a leg on each side, and your mind in the middle." Yeah, sure. I think mind in the middle may be the important part.

It's been about four days. Sure felt good to ride. I think I may be a junkie.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

With Mia, it seemed best to let her look for 5 seconds while I looked with her. If I didn't, she would assume I hadn't seen it and that it was up to her to save us both. She behaved better if she knew I saw it.

With Bandit, I think it might work best to take the 'Keep your mind on the trail" approach. It has worked so far, but our time together is hopefully just beginning. OFF TOPIC: Got a picture of Mia being ridden on the ranch. She is being introduced to cows. She's a horse who needs a job, so ranch life might work out very well for her.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

As I've been told a million times here on the ranch, all horses are different. One size does NOT fit all.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I love the texas cowboy quote! Probably because my horse likes a little leg on him. I guess my legs act as a security blanket. If my legs are on him he doesn't have to be in charge. 

I tried a little experiment a while back with my gelding. I took him out on the trails and took my leg off of him. He started to look at everything, was jumpy, spooky. Continued with the ride but put my leg back on and he settled right on down. Could have been just coincidence, I don't know since I do not have the experience of many on here. 

I have decided many horses that are labeled reactive, are insecure and don't want to be in charge, but want a rider to be there supporting them and riding them.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Oh, another thing. I mentioned I'm at least decreasing the times he gets to make decisions.

Well, on the way back on a ranch road he all of a sudden angled off at about 30 degrees to the left. What??? Who do you think you are??? Get back here on the road!!!

Twenty feet later. Ulp. That's the new trail I'm working on that we used on the way up. Sorry buddy, you were right. We'll go that way.

Now sometimes it's just real hard for me to pull the executive rank thing on him when he is often more on top of it than I am.

I mean it's like a boss chewing an employee out for doing stuff right.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

In one of Mark Rashid's books there was a time when he had been riding for some hours and the horse wants to take a trail and he went a different way, turns out they had to ride several miles further to get home, the horse had known better!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Yup. Read that story a couple of times. I think it was in Considering The Horse (problems solved and lessons learned)

They were tracking a colt that had gotten away and his horse knew which way the colt went.

I did become a passenger one time when I sat up there with Hondo smelling the ground to track down the herd that had gotten through a downed fence section.

I will eventually get all of his books. If I had a horse guru it would be him.


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

sarahfromsc said:


> I love the texas cowboy quote! Probably because my horse likes a little leg on him. I guess my legs act as a security blanket. If my legs are on him he doesn't have to be in charge.


I find just the same with my horse, who is young and still rather green. Whenever she tenses up about something on a ride, I put the opposite leg on to keep her from swinging her butt away and facing the scary thing to stare at it. Then I used the other leg to straighten her and we continue. Using a little bit of leg seems to soothe her, I guess it's like you say: she remembers that I'm up there, making the decisions, and she relaxes.



Hondo said:


> I did what you are not supposed to do. I stopped Hondo, pointed his head toward the cow.


I personally think letting them look at something that could be scary is useful if the horse hasn't yet spotted it, as in your example. If I spot something potentially alarming, I prefer to point it out to my horse in advance rather than risk her not noticing until the last minute, and probably spooking as a result. I think as long as you are relaxed when you stop and point it out, there's no reason for the horse to get nervous either.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I'll have to ask my cowboy friend when he's in the area what he meant by "on". I read it as just not to get both legs on the same side

But I guess you guys are reading "leg on" as in a little pressure from both legs.

He said he put his last horse down a few years ago and no longer rides, but in his youth he was the designated rider in wild horse races (that i don't like) and also got on a buffalo (for a short time). Rode one year on a ranch up in Montana where they were culling a wild horse herd from 1,000 or so down to 300 or so. They had to sometimes change horses at noon from hard riding.

That's not my cup of tea for certain.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Smilie said:


> So, an honest question, as perhaps I am not using the correct terminology, far as that counter bend.
> I am familiar with using the counter bend, to teach shoulder control, to areining horse, thus you alternate a direct bend circle with a counter bend circle.
> The countertbend circle is ridden with head and nose bent to outside of circle, and the direct bend is just having the horse bent correctly around your inside leg,
> Thus, is it better to say I have that horse in a direct bend circle configuration, but riding foreward, and not in a circle, or, since direction of implied circle is not specified, it could also be a counter bend position, riding forward????
> ...


Earlier this month, the correct terminology for a Leg Yield, Half Pass and Side Pass movements were defined and explained on the thread linked below. 

See gee50's post #23.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/half-pass-vs-leg-yield-576570/page1/


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If I need to keep the horse facing forward, I like to slide my heels forward about 3 inches and then use my legs like a funnel or fence to provide support for the shoulders. If I try to use rein & bit to influence the head, the horse seems to get more nervous. If I use leg to say, "_I'm here & it is OK to keep going forward...we're together, pal_", the horse acts reassured. As the horse relaxes, my legs go back to their normal position. Don't know if it is right, but it seems to help my horses.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Harold, there is nothing wrong with you helping Hondo see a possible , spook like that cow, ad stopping to do so. That is not what is implied by keeping forward motion.
keeping forward motion is WHEN that horse spots a possible scare, and then tries to thus stop on his own, head up staring, deciding on 'getting out of Dodge'
Far as making Hondo get back on the trail you chose, was correct , in my books,and is way different then giving a horse his head, because you are not sure of route, thus, being more like pilot , handing over decision to his co-pilot, rather than that co-pilot assuming command on his own


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> If I need to keep the horse facing forward, I like to slide my heels forward about 3 inches and then use my legs like a funnel or fence to provide support for the shoulders. If I try to use rein & bit to influence the head, the horse seems to get more nervous. If I use leg to say, "_I'm here & it is OK to keep going forward...we're together, pal_", the horse acts reassured. As the horse relaxes, my legs go back to their normal position. Don't know if it is right, but it seems to help my horses.



Yes, when a horse wants to loose 'forward', I first ask for his head, as 'head down,', alone is a 'calm down cue', and what I don't want, when a horse gets excited, is to have him become bracy in the face and poll, but to give to that bit.
I then use legs, to keep forward, and depending on room, where that scary object is, will also use 'body control', based ont he fact that a horse can always run off at his shoulders, regardless where you have his head and neck
I do not ride with constant legs on my horse, for several reasons. First, I ride western, thus don't believe in constantly maintaining ahorse between rein and leg contact, esp on a trail ride, but rather expect the horse to stay correct on his own, thus only use reins and legs when needed.
If you ride a horse with constant leg and rein pressure, he never learns to stay correct on his own, and in fact, will fall apart without that constant support, or 'baby sitting'
Far as a spook possibility, all reins really do, in my opinion, is enable you to take that head away, and beyond that, you need body control, which means response to legs. Reins only control a horse form the withers foreward, legs the rest
Did I read your post incorrect Hondo, as to those toys?
You do want them popping out ahead of you, not behind.
The spook in place, applies mainly to that unexpected spook, of an object suddenly popping out without warning, and not to a possible problem the horse sees ahead of him, where you have time to get his mind back on you, keep forward, etc
ANY horse, is programed to react to a sudden un expected spook, but what you do with training and trust building, is to control what that horse does after that spook, and to dampen the actual spook itself
Thus, it is okay for your horse to spook in that case, but it is not okay for him to try and spin or bolt. That is where the 'spook in place applies, and with time, that horse will actually dampen that spook itself, from that brace and crouch, to just a flinich.
I posted the topic on different spooks, as you deal with each in a different manner, and that helps to eliminate the confusion of the different advise in this thread.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

updownrider said:


> Earlier this month, the correct terminology for a Leg Yield, Half Pass and Side Pass movements were defined and explained on the thread linked below.
> 
> See gee50's post #23.
> 
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/half-pass-vs-leg-yield-576570/page1/



Thanks, but I rather consider what I am doing, in case of an actual trail ride as 'body control, not any show ring maneuver, per say, as when you ride trails, does not matter if you are doing a halfpass, shoulders in, etc, by the book, but that you keep control of your horse
I know of upper level dressage horses that can't be safely ridden on a trail
Heck, I had a stallion, trained by someone else, while I was pregnant, that if held back on a ride, could do lead changes every other stride, but non of that made him a safe trail horse, as when you are going down that tricky trail, and that horse is changing leads on his own, loping almost in place, his mind is anywhere except watching as to where he is placing his feet!
Thus, I think I will continue to discribe what I do, passing a 'rock bear', as a counter flex, with the implied circle being in the direction of that 'rock bear', but keeping going straight, instead


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> As I've been told a million times here on the ranch, all horses are different. One size does NOT fit all.


True, BUT how you deal with the different spooks, is pretty much standard, if you really break down as to what is happening.
Some horses will always be more reactive than others. I never ride down a trail with the thoughts of just trying to keep my horse from noticing anything, as sure as heck, he will spot something a, and then really react. You have to let that horse learn to relax , trust him, and ride down that trail on a loose rein, legs in neutral, rather than 'riding on brakes' the full time.
You should reserve those aids to 'fix' your horse, as needed', and not to 'baby sit ' him
That trust is a two ay street, and if you always hang on a horse, how is he to learn some self confidence, able to control his own mind, when it comes to a spook potencial?


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

You brought the terms up in a post that seemed like you were asking what to call certain maneuvers. They already have terms that many people know, as discussed in the thread I linked. Those maneuvers are not only "show ring" maneuvers, they are training tools. The Leg Yield is a basic maneuver that is not restricted to dressage. One of the videos you linked earlier in this thread suggested it as an exercise. 

You know horses that can't be ridden on trails, I know many upper level horses that can be ridden on trails. I'm not sure why you brought up that story. 

Carry on.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I did post the topic on different kinds of spooks, and I think going there, to discuss dealing with spooks themselves, can prove fruitful, as just like there are different types of horses, so are there different reasons why horses spook, and how you deal with each
No different then dealing with colic, which is just a term for general abdominal pain, and the way you treat it , depends on whether it is impaction, gas colic, spenlic entrapment, sand colic, etc


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

updownrider said:


> You brought the terms up in a post that seemed like you were asking what to call certain maneuvers. They already have terms that many people know, as discussed in the thread I linked. Those maneuvers are not only "show ring" maneuvers, they are training tools. The Leg Yield is a basic maneuver that is not restricted to dressage. One of the videos you linked earlier in this thread suggested it as an exercise.
> 
> You know horses that can't be ridden on trails, I know many upper level horses that can be ridden on trails. I'm not sure why you brought up that story.
> 
> Carry on.


Sorry, no offense intended.
So, what would you call, riding a horse forward, in a counter bend position, head in opposition direction of the scare, shoulders and ribs towards that scare?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I really don't think it matters what you call a maneuver you execute on the trail to try to avoid a turn and bolt situation as long as it defuses the situation and keeps you in control of the horse - though that sounds vaguely like a version of a 'shoulder in' - NOTE - I say vaguely.
Going back to the 'spook in place' - desensitizing can help you train the horse to deal with things in a less reactive way but more importantly it can help the rider learn how to react fast and effectively because you can never fully replicate all the scary things you're going to encounter out on the trails or roads.
A captive domesticated plastic bag on the end of a stick in your familiar arena is no way is frightening as a wild and free one that leaps out of a bush and chases you on a strange trail.
If the rider can be sharp enough to contain the horse's desire to run away as fast as possible you have the time to 'be the leader', show the horse you aren't scared by staying calm and relaxed and ride past and onwards
The more a horse realizes that you are in control the less spooky it will become


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Harold, there is nothing wrong with you helping Hondo see a possible , spook like that cow, ad stopping to do so. That is not what is implied by keeping forward motion.
> keeping forward motion is WHEN that horse spots a possible scare, and then tries to thus stop on his own, head up staring, deciding on 'getting out of Dodge'


Gotcha!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...I do not ride with constant legs on my horse, for several reasons. First, I ride western, thus don't believe in constantly maintaining ahorse between rein and leg contact, esp on a trail ride, but rather expect the horse to stay correct on his own, thus only use reins and legs when needed.
> If you ride a horse with constant leg and rein pressure, he never learns to stay correct on his own, and in fact, will fall apart without that constant support, or 'baby sitting'...


This may be semantics. There is a style of western riding with a very straight leg and using the stirrups like pedals. Barry Godden described it this way a few years back:



xxBarry Godden said:


> Years ago I was taught to ride 'Western' by an old, bent bow legged Canadian cowboy who had been involved with horses since he was a kid. In the 1930s he had been a winning rodeo rider. By the time I met him he had formed a Western riding club in Surrey, where anyone who rode horses used the English hunting seat. Kennie's first job with new members was to teach them how to ride Western on his Western schooled horses.
> 
> The first lesson was to adjust the stirrups so that the leg was carried almost straight. Enough bend was left in the knee to just lift the butt off the seat of the saddle even at the trot.
> The second lesson was to learn to ride with signficant weight carried on the stirrups at all times.
> ...


When my lower leg is against the horse, it has nothing to do with "constant leg and rein pressure". I want it resting there, or a very light grip. That comes from learning riding from reading Littauer and Chamberlin. Dressage riders often compare it to wet towels draped against the horse.

Some western riders ride with no lower leg contact as their neutral position. That is OK by me - whatever works for them. For me, riding a horse that could jump sideways at times, a bit more lower leg contact worked well. I think it feels more intuitive to ride with lower leg contact in an English/Australian saddle, but two of my western saddles work well that way too. One of them, the Circle Y Mojave that my daughter loves, forces my lower leg away from the horse and also holds my thigh in an awkward position. I avoid using it. She doesn't want to use any other saddle...:?


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Smilie said:


> Sorry, no offense intended.
> So, what would you call, riding a horse forward, in a counter bend position, head in opposition direction of the scare, shoulders and ribs towards that scare?


I guess you didn't read the link to the other thread. This was in gee50's post.
Which one do you think you are describing? 

*Leg yield:* To move a horse forward and laterally creating a diagonally forward movement. The horses spine stays straight. The head faces away from direction of travel due to bend/flex at pole.

*Half pass:* To move a horse forward and laterally creating a diagonally forward movement in the direction of the leg cue/aid. The horses spine curves (apex away from direction of travel) around the leg. The head faces towards direction of travel due to a bending/flexing of neck.

*Side pass: *To move a horse laterally creating a perpendicular motion to the direction of the horse (some forward movement is created as the horses legs cross to the front). The horses spine curves (apex to the direction of travel) away from the leg cue/aid. The head faces away from direction of travel due to a bending/flexing of neck.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Conversely, if he were to spin etc, I would first boot his shoulders around hard, back into the direction he was facing when he spooked,


I'm not real good at mult-tasking and when he does what the white donkey girl's horse did, my tasking is all used up with trying to stay on.

That said, while riding yesterday, I "gently" played that video in my head a few times. If I get that down to more automatic, it may free up my "tasking center" to try doing as you suggest.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

updownrider said:


> I guess you didn't read the link to the other thread. This was in gee50's post.
> Which one do you think you are describing?
> 
> *Leg yield:* To move a horse forward and laterally creating a diagonally forward movement. The horses spine stays straight. The head faces away from direction of travel due to bend/flex at pole.
> ...


Well, you see , none of those terms define as to what I do. I can read the description, well as anyone, but what I do, is more on body control, needed for that situation, and not some classical maneuver, by the book.
By the way, western, a correct side pass has ZERO forward motion, with the horse just moving laterally, crossing back and front, neither shoulder or hip leading. You could not side pass over difficult trail obstacles in any other manner, without incurring major penalties

I "m not doing a leg yield,as I'm not asking for a diagonal forward motion. I just have that horse set up, that should he decide to go sideways, it is towards that fear obstacle I also don't have the spine straight

I am also not doing a half pass, as I don't want lateral movement

A true sidepass to me, is just moving laterally, no forward motion
Thus, my question, as what I do, is not defined by anything BSMS posted, but just putting the horse's body in such a position, that weer he to try and move laterally, his only choice would be towards that scary object, and not away from it, and in my case, maybe over a cliff!

I have that head bent opposite direction of scary object, while, not having a straight spine, but rather having ribs and shoulders towards scary object, but continuing to move straight forward. No, not aperfect classic maneuver, BUT, it gives me that body control to hold the horse from spooking away from that object, on a narrow trail, and thus avoid maybe going over a cliff

The body position, itself, would be, as if you were riding a counter bend circle around that object, but going straight intsead

I caN CERTAINLY READ LINKS, but there are times outside of the show ring, where you do what needs to be done, far as body control, and not trying to score points in a pattern!

Thus, I will continue to consider it a counter bend circle position, without riding a counter bend circle, going straight instead


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSMS, yes, I certailny did not intend to imply that you ride like a sack of potatoes, all of your weight on your rear, feet out in front of you, as in an easy chair!
I also believe in riding with weight in my stirrups, as that is what helps you stay with the horse, in any sudden move
No, my comment meant, that I don't ride down that trail, expecting the horse to move in some collected frame, or holding him at any pace , with my legs or hands
Far as stirrup length, I have mine adjusted western, same as for English, as I don't jump English. That allows you to ride with weight in your stirrups, which is automatic for me, as is having heels down, but it also allows me to post just fine, if I wish to long trot and cover distance in my western saddle.
I realize that some Arabian show people (as I have shown with them ), have long stirrups, feet out to the side of the horse, almost no bend in the knee.
Correct equitation position is universal, and I have ridden it both English and western, using same position.
If you are ready to ride off, and want to check your position, stand in your stirrups, without hanging on to the saddle, then sit down. That puts your body in the correct position, and something I often do in the hitching ring, and which is automatic to me
Hubby, who does not ride much, but rather rides as a means of accessing wilderness, often rides with his toes down, heels up, or at least, foot level in those stirrups, which seems to be natural for many, until you develop that strength, where riding with your heels down and legs under you, is just natural
I have ridden in reining and working cowhorse, well as western pl, so you do develop that seat to stay with a horse, in any sudden maneuvers!
In other words, my legs are in a position to very easily be on that horse at any given time
To explain, my legs are not off of the horse, but in neutral, meaning I'm not applying pressure constantly, but can, in the blink of an eye. Horses certainly need to learn to accept having legs on them, and I will at time just randomly fan my legs against a horse, expecting him to stay at the same speed and gait, versus havinga hrose so reactive to legs, that he will scoot sideways, if any leg is put on him.
I had the impression of someone having constant leg pressure ona horse, as you would, riding in a showring, to make sure that the horse remains collected
I do not ask my horses to go down that trial, in frame, collected, as they would in the showring, and when you read classical literature, you have to remmeber that what is described often, is schooling,/showring type maneuvers, and not the way you would just ride down a trail
I mean, I can tell you as to how I rate a pleasure horse in the showring, off of seat and legs, but we are talking trial riding


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> I'm not real good at mult-tasking and when he does what the white donkey girl's horse did, my tasking is all used up with trying to stay on.
> 
> That said, while riding yesterday, I "gently" played that video in my head a few times. If I get that down to more automatic, it may free up my "tasking center" to try doing as you suggest.



But, you see that the donkey example, was not the same as a sudden spook, due to something just popping out of that bush

That girl failed to diffuse the spook, or at least the degree of that spook, as she had ample time to read her horse, and get some body control on him. There is no way that horse should hav ebeen in a position to fly sideways like that, tense up , etc

You don't have to multi task , per say, but at least let Hondo know as to what part of that reaction was totally un acceptable

Fine, he had a genuine fear spook, that you had no warning to prevent.
That is acceptable. What is not acceptable, is for that horse to spin away and try to leave.
Thus, if you were riding south when he spooked, and then wound up facing north, that is what you correct. Say Hondo spooks, because that cow, deer, whatever pops out of that brush, and then spins and takes a few jumps-you concentrate on riding that out, with your seat .
BUT, then, once he has stopped, get after him for spinning, boot those shoulders back to facing south, so he is facing his fear object, then when he is standing there quietly, reward.
You have to break it down, and identify the part that was really un acceptable. Any horse might spook in that situation-it is part of their prey mentality. You won't prevent that totally, although, over time, that horse will dampen his reaction, esp when he learns not to try and reverse directions
You can, and must teach him that spinning and trying to bolt, even a few steps, IS NOT acceptable


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Shoulder in - going forwards with a slight angle of the head away from the object but not going sideways


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> BUT, then, once he has stopped, get after him for spinning, boot those shoulders back to facing south, so he is facing his fear object, then when he is standing there quietly, reward.


Got it. I can do that on those occasions where I'm still mounted, which are most, after the spin. Just turn him back hard enough to let him know that turning away before looking was wrong wrong.

I was thinking about how I stopped and pointed his head toward stationary cows before he noticed them. Speculative for certain, but I'm wondering if it could slowly translate in his head that, hey, harold is on the clock watching out for us.


Technical terms aside for a moment, I'm still puzzled how your cues could make it impossible for him to go off the cliff opposite the rock bear. I can see how it would make it more difficult for him but couldn't he decide to over ride your cues if it really was a bear, or lion?

PS: Only thing I know about side pass is moving against a gate to put me in reach of the latch. And turning on the fronts and hinds is handy to while maneuvering the gate closed or open. I did learn that holding the leg out in the direction I wanted to go helped when I was already bumping with the other leg. I'm thinking of getting some round knob spurs for those leg aids. I seem to need to take my bumping foot out of the stirrup for him to know I'm asking for a sidepass, unless he's already figured it out and is moving into position, which he sometimes does.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

PS2: <You can, and must teach him that spinning and trying to bolt, even a few steps, IS NOT acceptable>

This is the most pertinent and meaningful statement of all.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Good article.....for me.

QueryHorse â€“ Step 9: Despooking â€“ Don't Be The Headless Horseman


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Got it. I can do that on those occasions where I'm still mounted, which are most, after the spin. Just turn him back hard enough to let him know that turning away before looking was wrong wrong.
> 
> I was thinking about how I stopped and pointed his head toward stationary cows before he noticed them. Speculative for certain, but I'm wondering if it could slowly translate in his head that, hey, harold is on the clock watching out for us.
> 
> ...


Yes, by taking your leg and rein off the horse, in the direction you wish to sidepass in, you are 'opening the door'
Far as having a horse responsive to very light leg aids, as is needed in a trail class, you are right thta a secondary artificial back up to leg aids is required, at least until you get a horse very responsive
I don't trail ride with spurs, but I do train with them, and my horses keep that lightness to leg aids, even when I occasionally ride without spurs
I trail ride in footwear that I can walk in, if I have to do that somewhere in the mountains, thus I ride with hiking boots that fit my stirrups. Found out smooth soled cowboy boots, don't work too well for that!
Back to that sidepass, or any maneuver with leg cues. Always ask with your leg first, then ask a little harder, and then if still no response, go to just enough spur pressure to get that response. Next time, ask again with just light leg, always giving the horse a chance to respond to leg alone. Does not take a horse long to realize that you ride with spurs, and so you seldom need to go to the spur
There are several ways one can be asked to negotiate a gate in a trail course
Rt push
left push
back through
Yes, it helps to have a horse you can work a gate off of, in the practical world also!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Good article.....for me.
> 
> QueryHorse â€“ Step 9: Despooking â€“ Don't Be The Headless Horseman


Just skimmed it, and some good info, including the fact of riding also with your legs, putting that body control on, BEFORE you ride out It truly does give you power steering and way more control then just riding with your hands, putting that response on your horse to legs.
Shoulder control is one of the first things I always started to work on, when first riding a green horse-that and a stop


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I'm reading Jennifer Goddard at the moment and she does have some stuff together on her 12 step program.....I think.

That plus you, and we'll see when I get the Lyons book which tracking says will be a while.

Reading on the shoulder, is the idea that if his shoulder is pointed toward said rock bear with his head and body bent to the left that he physiologically, or bio-mechanically, just can't do what he needs to do to go off the cliff to the left. That to do that he would HAVE to take his head away from you in order to point his shoulder towards the drop off?

I may be getting there. Slowly.

I do have the "I can and must" burned into my brain around all actions will be assessed.

If you have time and are so inclined I would value your assessment from a perusal of the 12 step thing. Gotta scroll down to training.

It seems to have some pretty basic hard core stuff crammed into just a few words.

QueryHorse â€“ Article Index


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

far as a real bear, suddenly attacking on the side away from that cliff-yes, you most likely will still take a dive over the edge!
I know of an outfitter that lost three horses that he was leading in a pack string
It is common , in that case, to tail the horses up (but not to the saddle horse, lol.
We dicovered that mistake the hard way, when first starting to pack! )

Anyway, a grizzly jumped on one of the pack horses from above, and the other two were knocked over the edge along with that horse, being tailed together

When hubby shot that grizzly bear, , over 20 years ago, when you could still get tags for them, I was left holding the horses, as he went after that bear,on foot, once I had spotted him, riding in the lead, moving through the trees, during a snow storm (early spring). I heard the bear breaking through that underbrush, in a circular route that would bring him back to the trail , where I was holding the horses. At that point, I was just considering which horse was the fastest!
You don't need to out run that bear, just the other horse and rider!
In fact, if I ran into an aggressive bear, the last thing I would worry about,was trying to ride past him! I would probably be all for my horse spinning and getting the heck out of there!
Luckily, all the bears I have encountered, while riding, were just as happy to see the last of me, as I of them
Part of that control, when I'm riding past a rock bear, is my own calmness, telling my horse that the rock is really harmless, thus using that leadership and trust also.
My horse sure would not get that calmness from me, should areal bear threaten us-so that is un trodden ground for me, and hope it stays that way


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I mean this 12 step thingie has got a LOT of stuff nailed. As in Quote:

" If our horses aren't listening to our commands, we need to get professional training for US to learn equine leadership skills - they don't need training in how to be horses."


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> far as a real bear, suddenly attacking on the side away from that cliff-yes, you most likely will still take a dive over the edge!
> I know of an outfitter that lost three horses that he was leading in a pack string
> It is common , in that case, to tail the horses up (but not to the saddle horse, lol.
> We dicovered that mistake the hard way, when first starting to pack! )
> ...


Common sense doth raise it's head. But good to know and have the understanding that the counterbend thing is when you feel secure and there is no actual smell, crashing brush, etc, and will work under those circumstances.

Forest person told me the difference between black bear scat and grizzly scat. 'Said grizzly scat had tinker bells and pepper spray in it. Old joke............


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

By 'leg on' I guess I think of it like this: that my legs are like a wet towel that drapes evenly around his barrel. No pressure, or guiding unless I ask for lateral movement of course. They are just there enough my horse knows I'm there....guiding him.

I see so many riders out on the trails that ride with their legs well off the horse at what looks like a weird angle. Also looks hard on the knees.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

sarahfromsc said:


> By 'leg on' I guess I think of it like this: that my legs are like a wet towel that drapes evenly around his barrel. No pressure, or guiding unless I ask for lateral movement of course. They are just there enough my horse knows I'm there....guiding him.
> 
> I see so many riders out on the trails that ride with their legs well off the horse at what looks like a weird angle. Also looks hard on the knees.


That sounds like a good simile .
I guess legs off, gave the wrong picture, and legs neutral would have been better!
I watched a clinic at the Mane Event. One rider had a very reactive horse, and part of the reason was, the rider was very insecure, because of her position, thus hung on the mouth, which started a viscous circle
Her stirrups were so long that there was about zero bend in her knees, and her legs were completely out to the side an doff of the horse
( I see some gaited horse people ride like this, but that is another topic)
The instructor had her take up her stirrups three entire notches, so that they usual quick measuring of desired stirrup length applied
(Foot hanging out of stirrup, has that bottom of that stirrup falling at ankle level )
The change her seat confidence, with legs able to lie against the side of the horse, and the change in the horse's attitude also, was amazing

I guess when my legs are just lightly against my horse's sides, I consider it to be legs off, as compared to using leg pressure for cues or for drive from behind . I can see where that can be mis construed!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Late at night, but I have another old grizzly bear joke for you, Hondo

How do you stop a grizzly bear that is charging you?
Well, you smear some poop in his face, was the answer , given to the 'pilgrim'
'Where will I get that poop, asked the pilgrim'
" Don't worry, replied the old timer, 'when the time comes it will be there'!
Okay, bad joke, and sounds better sitting around a camp fire, after a few drinks!
( the 's' word was used, instead of poop! )


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Magnesium only works if the horse is magnesium defficient. Yes, horses that are magnesium deficient are more reactive, but giving a horse more magnesium , if he is not deficient, isn't going to do anything
> Worth a try.


Yep. Based on the calcium/magnesium ratios from one site, Hondo is getting right at 50% of his magnesium from his forage.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

You started with the magnesium last week? Have you noticed any differences?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Hondo said:


> Oh, another thing. I mentioned I'm at least decreasing the times he gets to make decisions.
> 
> Well, on the way back on a ranch road he all of a sudden angled off at about 30 degrees to the left. What??? Who do you think you are??? Get back here on the road!!!
> 
> ...


I was re-thinking this today and I see now that Hondo did EXACTLY correct.

You see, I THOUGHT I was looking down a wide single road with no turn offs. The trail we had come up on was barely visible at all, to me, but not to Hondo.

We were ambling along on the way back home when Hondo came to what HE perceived as a Y in the road. Lacking any input from MR. EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR who does not see detail that Hondo sees, Hondo simply said, ok, we'll go back the way we came.

So he didn't really turn off the road. He just followed the one he came up on, albeit to the average human it didn't look much like a road.

I just think one needs to be SOOOO careful before defaulting to "the horse did wrong".


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> You started with the magnesium last week? Have you noticed any differences?


I started on the 22nd. I haven't been riding much and he is so calm and easy going that it's hard to tell in his pen and pasture. I think it's going to take some more riding.

There were people camped in the area about a football field away this weekend and he is usually really hyper about stuff going on over there. He did seem better. Plus I spent three nights in a row with him camping out of sight and sound of the herd and he did really really good. Seemed not to care at all.

That said, I'm not going to be anxious about looking for confirmation. I've got confirmation. He'll be getting it whether I can notice anything or not, which I'm sure I will.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Hondo said:


> I just think one needs to be SOOOO careful before defaulting to "the horse did wrong".


Yep, but don't forget you are _*only*_ human after all! :lol:

We make mistakes, horses make mistakes...somewhere in there we learn to forgive each other (or ourselves) and move on.


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## goodhrs (Dec 30, 2009)

What are you feeding him? I am in my late 60's and dont ride horses like this anymore. I have learned over the years tho that diet can effect a horses spookiness alot. I have one that if I dont control his sugar & potein he is a lunatick, when I do, he is kid broke and quiet as can be. Just saying. Good luck with your fello.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

goodhrs said:


> What are you feeding him? I am in my late 60's and dont ride horses like this anymore. I have learned over the years tho that diet can effect a horses spookiness alot. I have one that if I dont control his sugar & potein he is a lunatick, when I do, he is kid broke and quiet as can be. Just saying. Good luck with your fello.


 Yes, sugar (NSC ), can cause mood highs, but protein level has absolutely no effect on behavior, and has been exonerated back in the seventies , from this incorrect assumption


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

goodhrs said:


> What are you feeding him? I am in my late 60's and dont ride horses like this anymore. I have learned over the years tho that diet can effect a horses spookiness alot. I have one that if I dont control his sugar & potein he is a lunatick, when I do, he is kid broke and quiet as can be. Just saying. Good luck with your fello.


Hey thanks for the comment! Being in my early seventies and a novice beginner at that, I'd prefer not to ride a horse like this either. But as it is, Hondo and I drew lots and here we are. Otherwise I'd be horseless and he might well be hanging on a meat hook down South in a horse slaughter house.

He is doing a sleep over at my compound tonight and we'll go out with three others rounding up cattle tomorrow. He's out there a little restless wishing to be with the herd but not bad. He'll be happy tomorrow with other horses and working cattle which he seems to really enjoy.

What do I feed him? About a half flake of alfalfa hay each day plus 500 Mg of magnesium supplement pellets, plus Arizona Copper wetted in about 1/2 gallon of water poured over said flake of alfalfa.

He is on turn out on around 600 acres of natural plus Bermuda. I tested his current browse and am awaiting recommendations. I did not test for sugar, only micro minerals. But I recently read somewhere that the tops of grass have the most sugar. And the herd he runs with leave perfectly good looking grass (to me) to go somewhere else only to return te next day for more munching in the same spot. So I'm thinking these equines have a sweet tooth and have the sugar figured out.

So yeah, your comments are spot on, plus he has about 1/2 the required magnesium. I'm hoping these two things may help get a hand on him.

All that said, riding him in a somewhat mode as suggested by Cherie, although a little diminutive as to what she might recommend, is also helping a lot I think.

There is lots of fronts to work on with this horse but he is worth all of it. And I shall pursue and endure.

And back to your post, the rain is plentiful in Arizona so far this year, the grass is green, and I know the hoofs do not like, but the horse is smiling

PS: What does HRS stand for? Those are my initials.


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## goodhrs (Dec 30, 2009)

Smilie said:


> Yes, sugar (NSC ), can cause mood highs, but protein level has absolutely no effect on behavior, and has been exonerated back in the seventies , from this incorrect assumption


:? I have been in horses for 50 years and I here to tell you that has not been my experience. I have 2 out of my 5 that if you feed them to much protein that are just lunaticks, spooky, jumpy, and over all just jerks.


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## goodhrs (Dec 30, 2009)

Hondo said:


> PS: What does HRS stand for? Those are my initials.


 It's short for Good Horses. LOL


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## Katepots (Jun 7, 2014)

Hi, 

I had exactly the same problem. Scary and dangerous!
Magnesium may be the answer, it completely changed my horse in about 5 weeks and we now hack everywhere without spooking at all! 

Magnesium helps a horse make better decisions, calms the brain. We live in a low magnesium area so he was not getting enough through the grass. 

I use equi feast cool calm and collected mid mag although I'm in the UK.
Read up on it on their website anyway there's other ingredients which may help too. They may even deliver to you or I'd talk to a supplement provider in the US.
Good Luck!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

goodhrs said:


> It's short for Good Horses. LOL


Hey I like that. My initials stands for horses. By a stretch I could say my name is horses.


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