# he IS liver chestnut!!



## shelleyb (May 13, 2011)

So i got romeo's vaccinations and the Vet had to sign off his passport... and couldnt decide whether he was BAY or BROWN???? Im not an expert but im convinced he is liver chestnut.... can see why he may say brown but Bay?? Seriously? what do you all think? xx


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## shelleyb (May 13, 2011)

........


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

What colour are his parents?


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## shelleyb (May 13, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> What colour are his parents?


both black


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## OTTBLover (Jun 23, 2011)

He looks dark bay to me...

Here is a pic of my liver chestnut mare - note there is no black on her legs, or in her mane/tail (tail looks verrry dark, but when you see it up close, you can see that it is just dark chestnut)...

Either way your horse is beautiful!


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## shelleyb (May 13, 2011)

aww thank you i think he is too.... oh really you would say bay?? it was the dark points that made the vet think bay but they arent actually black they just darker brown.... to me tho his coat looks exactly the same colour as you gorgeous mare does in you profile picture..... what defines a liver chestnut then?? can they have 'darker' points? xx


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I would say that he is a fading black. Normally on liver chestnuts, their legs get lighter as you go down toward their hooves as you can see on OTTB's horse. A liver chestnut is just that, a chestnut that happens to be darker than others. I am unsure whether it is a sooty modifier that causes it or if it just happens. With both the sire and dam being black, there was only a 1 in 4 chance of a chestnut horse (if both parents are heterozygous for black). If one parent was homozygous black, then there is zero chance for a chestnut horse.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

smrobs said:


> I would say that he is a fading black. Normally on liver chestnuts, their legs get lighter as you go down toward their hooves as you can see on OTTB's horse. A liver chestnut is just that, a chestnut that happens to be darker than others. I am unsure whether it is a sooty modifier that causes it or if it just happens. With both the sire and dam being black, there was only a 1 in 4 chance of a chestnut horse (if both parents are heterozygous for black). If one parent was homozygous black, then there is zero chance for a chestnut horse.


As well as this, if both parents are black, they cannot produce a bay or brown foal :thumbsup:


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## OTTBLover (Jun 23, 2011)

Go to Color Calculator

This is the result I got! Unless one of his parents weren't true black....

93.75% - Black
6.25% - Chestnut


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

The horse in the photo looks dark bay or brown to me... Definitely not liver chestnut.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Just out of curiosity, OP do you have pics of the sire and dam or can you give us their names?


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I would vote strongly that one of the parents was not true black. He certainly looks brown and not liver chestnut, but liver can get weird sometimes.


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## shelleyb (May 13, 2011)

this is the link for the breeders website it shows pictures of sire dam and full brother.... Brynarcal Welsh Cobs - West Midlands At Stud | Mares | Foals |For Sale | Search Engine Sub

Sire: Kiron Danzy Jones - on stud page
Dam: cethin betsan - on mare page
My boy (as a foal) ROMEO and his brother MCARTHY on for sale page

More pics of my boy below:


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## OTTBLover (Jun 23, 2011)

In that last photo he looks liver chestnut!! What a strangely coloured boy! His parents certainly look black though - so I guess he is in the 6% chance of being chestnut???
It would be interesting for you to get him typed!! 
He is a gorgeous boy - I'd be so proud to own a horse like him!

ETA - Just looked at the pics of his brother, definitely liver... Wow - he had us all stumped!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Sire looks like he _MIGHT_ be a brown rather than a black.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I think he just may be a liver chestnut. My friend recently had an Appaloosa colt who you would SWEAR looked bay, but in fact his legs kept coming through black looking on photos when in real life we could both blatantly see they were just a deeper shade of chestnut.

Have you examined his legs closely? He looks like he may be "tricking" the camera into looking blacker then he really is.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I think he just may be a liver chestnut. My friend recently had an Appaloosa colt who you would SWEAR looked bay, but in fact his legs kept coming through black looking on photos when in real life we could both blatantly see they were just a deeper shade of chestnut.
> 
> Have you examined his legs closely? He looks like he may be "tricking" the camera into looking blacker then he really is.


MM as a previous poster noted, most times liver chestnuts have a lighter coronet band than the rest of their legs. This horse doesn't, and that is the reason I suspect he is not liver at all.


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## shelleyb (May 13, 2011)

OTTBLover said:


> In that last photo he looks liver chestnut!! What a strangely coloured boy! His parents certainly look black though - so I guess he is in the 6% chance of being chestnut???
> It would be interesting for you to get him typed!!
> He is a gorgeous boy - I'd be so proud to own a horse like him!
> 
> ETA - Just looked at the pics of his brother, definitely liver... Wow - he had us all stumped!


Thank you i am very proud of him.... my mare in my opinion is even more beautiful when i see them both with their heads over their stable its a very 'proud mummy moment' lol....

And i agree his brother is VERY..... WOW!! I had the choice between the two and his brother was the most beautiful thing i have ever seen but there was just something about Romeo that i just fell in love with so i went with my heart and so glad i did!!

I do think he is liver chestnut tho..... as according to genetics he cant be bay so he must be chestnut.... but he is what he is and love him


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## shelleyb (May 13, 2011)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I think he just may be a liver chestnut. My friend recently had an Appaloosa colt who you would SWEAR looked bay, but in fact his legs kept coming through black looking on photos when in real life we could both blatantly see they were just a deeper shade of chestnut.
> 
> Have you examined his legs closely? He looks like he may be "tricking" the camera into looking blacker then he really is.


Yer his legs definitely arent black he has no black on him... they are just a slightly darker shade of (whatever colour he is lol) and the difference in shade is exaggerated in pictures xx


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## shelleyb (May 13, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> MM as a previous poster noted, most times liver chestnuts have a lighter coronet band than the rest of their legs. This horse doesn't, and that is the reason I suspect he is not liver at all.


why do you say his dad might be brown? just out of interest.... he has thrown a black foal with a bay mare also so that should make him black surely?

also i understand what you are saying about the darker points which was what caused the debate lol but have you seen the pics of his brother? he is DEFO liver chestnut and has darker points


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Looking at his foal pics I am going to have a stab at his colour. I think he is fading black. The colour of him as a foal, that silvery grey, is a common colour for black horses, not so much for any shade of red.

The reason I think his sire could be brown is the brown in his flank and down his rear. These are indicators of brown rather than bleached black - the inner flank there would be the last place to bleach if it was.

The full brother could be fading black or liver chestnut, those pictures aren't big enough for me to see. Either way, they are all taken on the same day, and pictures over several seasons are usually best for telling a horse's colour. Or foal and adult pictures.


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## shelleyb (May 13, 2011)

oh really thats interesting..... how confusing... he is what he is i suppose and according to his passport he is liver chestnut  haha.... 

I can imagine me explaining his colour to somebody:

'well he is black but he doesnt have any black on him, he kinda looks dark bay but hes not so his kind of a liver chestnut but has darker legs so he is technically just brown even thou he is genetically black as his dad is black, well his dad is technically brown but looks black......'


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

He really does not look liver from pictures at all. He looks really, really sunfaded.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

It would be interesting to see winter photos of him, as his winter coat should lend more indication of his true color. If he's black, he should become almost totally black in winter.


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## KBailey13 (Jul 10, 2011)

He is not a True Bay, he has the lighter coloring in his tail..a true bay has a black mane and tail. From what I see, the sun has bleached him so that brings out a more chestnut look to him. But he still has the dark legs as a bay would, but a chestnut would not have. So he is somewhere in the middle. He probably got the darker legs from his parents who you said were black. I would say he is just Brown.


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## KBailey13 (Jul 10, 2011)

After really looking, he is somewhere in the middle really. He has an interesting color, but could probably pass off as a fading black, especially if the sun hadnt bleacher his coat.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

It's already been discussed that he cannot be bay or brown because his parents are both black. When you breed two black horses, the only colors you can possibly have are black and chestnut.

Colors don't "mix" together like paint.


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## KBailey13 (Jul 10, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> As well as this, if both parents are black, they cannot produce a bay or brown foal :thumbsup:


Actually, yes they can. Depending on if they are homozygous or heterozygous for the black gene. The parents could have the brown or chestnut gene in their lines..which normally, in this case, could still be heterozygous and happened to come out in the offspring. If you do a punnett square with the gene types, matching all (depending on what is what of course), this could result with the heterozygous being the foal. It just all depends on how the genes are carried.


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## KBailey13 (Jul 10, 2011)

Got it...have you thought about maybe being smokey black?...."A smoky black horse usually appears to be a black horse and the dilution gene dilution factor is not visible. However, the coat may be somewhat more prone to fade to a brown shade if weathered or sun-bleached"
OR
he could be some kind of chocolate color. There are a few shades of this color. But there are some of both the chocolate and smokey color that greatly resemble your horse.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Agouti genes (the genes that control bay/brown) are dominate on a black horse. They "hide" only on red based horses due to the fact there is not black for agouti to affect. 

A black horse has no agouti in any form. So two black horses cannot produce a bay/brown horse.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

If he were an Arabian I'd call him Wild Bay which is where they have the darker points and a "skunky" looking tail and/or mane. Really, I'd pull tail hair and send it off for testing to find out exactly what he is, it's only around $40 for the black/red test and I think they have a combo that includes the agouti test, which is what he must carry if he's truly a bay. If one parent is Aa rather than AA (if true black they can't have for agouti) or aa (non-agouti) then he could have the gene. I have a very very dark bay mare who can look black when freshly clipped or shed out but she tested EE (homozygous black) and AA (homozygous Agouti) so she is bay in appearance because the agouti concentrates the black to the mane/tail/ears and legs. She will also ONLY throw bay babies unless she's bred to a grey.


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## shelleyb (May 13, 2011)

ok... so if he IS black whether it be faded, sunbleached, smokey, diluted or whatever other type of black there is lol surely he should have at least 1 black hair on him which he doesnt? his mane / tail / legs are all just brown..... so with regards to 'brown' horses is that really a colour 'type' or just the appearence.... i mean can are there 'brown' genes or is it just a name that resembles the appearence of the horse regardless of its genetics?? im getting quite interested now lol....


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## shelleyb (May 13, 2011)

i dont think im going to send it off for testing to be honest although it will be interesting i dont really see the point :s


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> If he were an Arabian I'd call him Wild Bay which is where they have the darker points and a "skunky" looking tail and/or mane. Really, I'd pull tail hair and send it off for testing to find out exactly what he is, it's only around $40 for the black/red test and I think they have a combo that includes the agouti test, which is what he must carry if he's truly a bay. If one parent is Aa rather than AA (if true black they can't have for agouti) or aa (non-agouti) then he could have the gene. I have a very very dark bay mare who can look black when freshly clipped or shed out but she tested EE (homozygous black) and AA (homozygous Agouti) so she is bay in appearance because the agouti concentrates the black to the mane/tail/ears and legs. She will also ONLY throw bay babies unless she's bred to a grey.


In no way, shape or form would I call this horse wild bay. Wild bay restricts the black so far down the points of the horse that there is hardly any black whatsoever. 

A black does not have to be black-black to be a black horse. Many, many bays and sunfaded blacks have brown hair.

Brown horses have lighter hair in the soft point, such as around the muzzle and in the stiffle and elbow area. Areas that are not prone to sunfade before the rest of the horse does.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

On the brown gene thing,... Yes there is a brown gene. There are three genes types of Agouti. Bay (A), Brown (At) and Wild Bay (A+). All three agouti genes restrict black on a horse, they just do so in different ways. All three can come in amy different shades as well. 

Brown horses, since they are a form of bay, can have just as black points as a traditional bay horse.


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## KBailey13 (Jul 10, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> In no way, shape or form would I call this horse wild bay. Wild bay restricts the black so far down the points of the horse that there is hardly any black whatsoever.
> 
> A black does not have to be black-black to be a black horse. Many, many bays and sunfaded blacks have brown hair.
> 
> Brown horses have lighter hair in the soft point, such as around the muzzle and in the stiffle and elbow area. Areas that are not prone to sunfade before the rest of the horse does.


I mean we are all just putting out are oppinions..the owner thought he/she was a liver chestnut, and if that is what she believes her horse is, then thats fine. Everyone has their own oppinions. I am led to believe its more of a smokey black/bayish type color. Others could think the horse is grey..for whatever color, I don't think its worth getting defensive over. She was just expressing her oppinion, and I think its a great name..her horse kind of does resemble a bayish look, so why not. This isnt a competition to see who is right and pick out those who are wrong. It's something fun to do, and its good to know everyone is trying to help eachother, but I don't see the big deal. She has a beautiful horse no matter what color it is. But yes, it would be interesting to know the real color of her horse. 
And im sure that is why she posted here...


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## shelleyb (May 13, 2011)

so according to the wonderful invention of google images - he does somewhat resemble a smokey black but thought that needed a 'dilute' gene???...... ahhhhh i give up.... according to his passport he is liver chestnut which i am now convinced he is not!! but never mind i shall create my own colour .... "Romeo-Brown" has a good ring to it eh?


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## KBailey13 (Jul 10, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> In no way, shape or form would I call this horse wild bay. Wild bay restricts the black so far down the points of the horse that there is hardly any black whatsoever.
> 
> A black does not have to be black-black to be a black horse. Many, many bays and sunfaded blacks have brown hair.
> 
> Brown horses have lighter hair in the soft point, such as around the muzzle and in the stiffle and elbow area. Areas that are not prone to sunfade before the rest of the horse does.





shelleyb said:


> so according to the wonderful invention of google images - he does somewhat resemble a smokey black but thought that needed a 'dilute' gene???...... ahhhhh i give up.... according to his passport he is liver chestnut which i am now convinced he is not!! but never mind i shall create my own colour .... "Romeo-Brown" has a good ring to it eh?


Hahaha, sounds good too me! Whatever he is, hes still gorgeous. But who know's. I personally don't think he is a liver chesnut, but its whatever. He does seem faded, and according to my reading on google, a TRUE black normally doesnt bleach from the sun, and if so, they still have the true black hairs under the bleached coat. Who knows?! Im not an expert. Just trying to help out. Do you know any of his lines? Smokey black can come from cremello colored horses, maybe he has a lighter gene down the line somewhere?


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## shelleyb (May 13, 2011)

thank you i think he is gorgeous too and also has the most amazing temperament! After google imaging and listening to other people comments i dont think he is liver chestnut either.... like you said who knows?? just hope his colour doesnt crop up in conversation somewhere lol


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

KBailey13 said:


> I mean we are all just putting out are oppinions..the owner thought he/she was a liver chestnut, and if that is what she believes her horse is, then thats fine. Everyone has their own oppinions. I am led to believe its more of a smokey black/bayish type color. Others could think the horse is grey..for whatever color, I don't think its worth getting defensive over. She was just expressing her oppinion, and I think its a great name..her horse kind of does resemble a bayish look, so why not. This isnt a competition to see who is right and pick out those who are wrong. It's something fun to do, and its good to know everyone is trying to help eachother, but I don't see the big deal. She has a beautiful horse no matter what color it is. But yes, it would be interesting to know the real color of her horse.
> And im sure that is why she posted here...


Was not defensive in the least. :wink: Wild Bay in and of it self is a completely different look than what the OP has.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

While the color of the OP's horse is a matter of "opinion", horse genetics most definitely are not. Science is fact, not opinion.

No offense, but arguing with people when you clearly don't know very much about equine color genetics and then accusing them of getting defensive is a little ridiculous. Everyone was having a good discussion before you showed up and started telling people who are experts in equine color they're wrong based on an "opinion" which is scientifically proven to be wrong. :-| Black horses do not carry agouti, and cream doesn't skip generations. Period.


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## shelleyb (May 13, 2011)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> cream doesn't skip generations. Period.


that rules out smokey black then hahaha


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

shelleyb said:


> that rules out smokey black then hahaha


Yup, no dilutes here  That is one thing we can be certain of :lol:


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I am still convinced that he is a fading black and not a chestnut of any shade.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Me too smrobs.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Me three


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> In no way, shape or form would I call this horse wild bay. Wild bay restricts the black so far down the points of the horse that there is hardly any black whatsoever.
> 
> A black does not have to be black-black to be a black horse. Many, many bays and sunfaded blacks have brown hair.
> 
> Brown horses have lighter hair in the soft point, such as around the muzzle and in the stiffle and elbow area. Areas that are not prone to sunfade before the rest of the horse does.


I don't claim to be a color expert by any means. She asked what folks thought and I popped off with that as I bred a colt who looks very similar to hers and consensus was, Wild Bay. I sold him before I had time to get him tested to find out his exact color genetics so can't speak like it's Gospel. 

I wanted to point out how reasonable color testing is and then you know for sure and that's what I'd do. No need for being testy or snarky about it.


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## KBailey13 (Jul 10, 2011)

I wasnt accusing anyone of being wrong, I threw out my oppinions and soo did everyone else. 
Who cares though, seriously. If whoever wants to believe the horse is one color, let them believe it. Thats what an oppinion is, and that is all she was asking for. I am not fighting with anyone or even picking sides. Im expressing what I believe as well as everyone else, thank you.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Everyone can have an opinion on what color he truly is, because none of us can truly know without DNA testing. My point was that you should research before telling others they're wrong about thinks like black carrying agouti which is a scientific fact and not really open to opinion.


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## KBailey13 (Jul 10, 2011)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Everyone can have an opinion on what color he truly is, because none of us can truly know without DNA testing. My point was that you should research before telling others they're wrong about thinks like black carrying agouti which is a scientific fact and not really open to opinion.


 
I wasnt trying to accuse ANYONE of being wrong at all..Just stating my oppinion. I never fully picked out one and said, your wrong. 
I was stating what I knew, and so was everyone else.


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## kywalkinghorse2010 (Dec 9, 2010)

He most definitely looks to be a liver chestnut. His lighter colored tail is a dead giveaway that he isn't black and he isn't bay.


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## To ride the sky (May 30, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Yup, no dilutes here  That is one thing we can be certain of :lol:


Unless of his parent's is a Smoky Black and is assumed to be Black.

Like my Mare's Grandpa Whits Bearcat Paint
and his Dad too! Whitmans Runner Paint
They are both reg as Black as people assumed but they are proven Smoky blacks


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## KDW (May 31, 2011)

My pony is considered a liver chestnut, so please check out her pictures in the folder titled Ms. Goody Two Shoes.


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## BrookbankGirls (Jul 18, 2011)

i'm not sure what colour he is but i am nearly a 100% certain that he is not liver chestnut as liver chesnuts are defined as a dark chestnut with lighter chestnut points e.g starting from his/her lower canon of just below the fetlock, were as urs has a darker colour of his coat at his points. they also r suppose to have darker chestnut (even darker than their coat coloured mane and tail unless they have flaxen mane and tail. i have 2 confirmed liver chesnuts and my filly possibly a 3rd u r welcome to compare. they are under rupert and maddy (maddy is a very dark liver chestnut and there where quires over her colour)


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## shelleyb (May 13, 2011)

Just a couple of recent photos taken this week.... im pretty convinced now he is liver chestnut  and a stunner at that.... not bad for 15 months is he?


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

You know, IF he was a KMHSA he would be some flavor of chocolate. (I think they're all obsessed OR they secretly all work for Fannie May!!)


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## OTTBLover (Jun 23, 2011)

I still this he is lovely, and I am still unsure what colour he is. I'm staying firmly on the fence!!

Here is a couple more recent photos of Lady, my liver chestnut....


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

A liver chestnut should get lighter on the lower legs, not darker. The hair around the coronet band is usually a good indicator. The OP's horse has black legs all the way down.


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## Cinder (Feb 20, 2011)

I'm no expert on color, but I definitely say he doesn't look like a liver chestnut to me. That's just my two cents though.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Still feeling that he is a sunfaded black personally.


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## csimkunas6 (Apr 18, 2010)

OP...I know this is completely off topic, and Im sorry...but how tall is your horse?? He looks like a monster!!! LOL


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## OTTBLover (Jun 23, 2011)

Haha and so it starts again....
OP I think the only way you will know for certain is to have him tested!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

OTTBLover said:


> Haha and so it starts again....
> OP I think the only way you will know for certain is to have him tested!


This lol. $25 for a red test, which will tell you if the horse is red or black based. $40 for a red + agouti test, which will tell you not only the base being red or black, but also if they are or if they carry bay (depending on the base).


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## shelleyb (May 13, 2011)

im really not worried what colour he is i just wanted to show him off really haha... and he currently stands at 14.2 /14.3 so cosidering hes not even 16 months hes guna be a BIG boy.... about the whole leg thing i dont have any pictures to show it but he almost has like leopard print legs and they do get lighter not sure why it doesnt come out in pictures tho x


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

When it comes to color genetics, I leave that to someone else. Why? Because I could really care less. All I care about is the horse standing in front of me. Is he sound? Is he able to do what the owners want him to do? Will I be able to improve him? Color is just not important to me. Might I describe him based on a narrow definition of "color"? Yup, probably. 

Unless I was involved in a careful breeding program I don't really care about the molecular components of subtle differences. All the stallions I have dealt with, I was riding/training/and showing. I was not planning their breeding. Several were homozygous, so they took the guesswork out anyway.

If I see a brown horse with a black mane and tail, I'll probably call it a bay. A red horse will likely be called a chestnut and so on. If someone asked me what that bay and chestnut might produce, I will say you better ask Bubba or someone who has taken the time to know.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

I love your horse he is gorgeous.

This is a picture of a little Morgan mare I used to ride, we thought she was liver chestnut


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Hunter65 - The mare you used to ride is for sure a liver chestnut.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

NdAppy said:


> Hunter65 - The mare you used to ride is for sure a liver chestnut.



My favorite color (don't tell Hunter that). She was so much fun to ride.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^That is my exact thought as well. Perfect definition of one, even down to the lighter legs. I really wish I had a good picture of one of our old horses named Scotch Judge. He was commonly mistaken for black, he was so dark, but he still had the legs that faded to a lighter reddish hue the closer you got to his hooves.

A couple more great examples of _true_ liver chestnuts...


















Here is about the most extreme example I've been able to find...but you can still spot his color by the lighter reddish tinge on his legs.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Yup. With those black black legs, there is no doubt in my mind that the op's horse is black based. Everything else is just a guess lol.


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