# Hog tying a horse?



## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Do you mean hobbling?


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## Newby32 (Dec 4, 2011)

Maybe that's what it is called. She said they tie the feet, so that they aren't able to get up.


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## BornToRun (Sep 18, 2011)

Okay, that seems a little too extreme to be doing that. There are many different ways to tire a horse out!


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## Tianimalz (Jan 6, 2009)

Good luck hog tying a horse that is out of control :rofl: Pretty sure the horse would win that match.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I think she means laying the horse down and tying its feet together. I've laid plenty of horses down and it's actually quite gentle if it's done right. I would never tie one down. I see no reason for it as the submission comes from the laying down not the staying down.


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## Newby32 (Dec 4, 2011)

Tianimalz said:


> Good luck hog tying a horse that is out of control :rofl: Pretty sure the horse would win that match.


No kidding! 

I'm just not sure that I understand why it's done? If the horse was submissive afterwards, wouldn't they be back to their "normal self" the next day?


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Newby32 said:


> No kidding!
> 
> I'm just not sure that I understand why it's done? If the horse was submissive afterwards, wouldn't they be back to their "normal self" the next day?


Not if it's done right.


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## Newby32 (Dec 4, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> I think she means laying the horse down and tying its feet together. I've laid plenty of horses down and it's actually quite gentle if it's done right. I would never tie one down. I see no reason for it as the submission comes from the laying down not the staying down.


Well, that makes more sense if it is done gently and the submission is done through the laying down. She talked about leaving the horse there for hours.


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

Why does it have to go that far?


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Somebody is missing the whole point.


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## Newby32 (Dec 4, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> Somebody is missing the whole point.


I'm guessing that the way you do it and the way my friend describe it are two COMPLETELY different things.


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## Tianimalz (Jan 6, 2009)

Eh either way, I still think I'd prefer just a good ol lunging session myself if a horse is having one of those "testy" days... different things for different people, I guess as long as the horse isn't hurt.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Walter(first name?) Berry had a popular horse training method, with books about 100 years ago and he made horses submission by tying up a front leg for short periods. (I know bc I read his short books.) ANY foot holding to a green horse will be met with a fight. Craig Cameron has had several programs where you lunged with a long line and would periodically isolate, grab a foot, then let it go in an effort to desensitize the horse's flight fear and prey fear since they depend upon their ability to run away when there is danger. I'd look into that for help. =D


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## yadlim (Feb 2, 2012)

Ok - I actually have experience with this....

In many areas of the country this is normal practice. Just somethign they do to every new horse that comes in....

The way it was done where I grew up was this (prepare to be traumatized!!) Central California

The new horse woudl be trailed into the stable - usually a young untouched horse. The stock trailer would be opened to let the horse loose into the arena. Then they woudl use a roping horse to rope the new horse's front legs, tripping them to the ground. Sometimes they would drag them around like that, sometimes not. At that point four or five big men would converge on the poor beast and tie all four feet together - completley hog tied. 

Using the rope horse or a truck, the horse would be drug by thier legs out of the arena and into a stall. Once in the stall, a tarp was laid over the horse, leavign them in the dark. 

24 to 48 hours later - yes, that long, the tarp woudl be removed and halter with a drag line put on the horse. At that point the legs would be untied and the horse offered water. 

I bought a colt they had done this to and it took YEARS to get him to relax about havign his front legs touched. 


I am not above lying down a horse who has reared up by overbalancign them if they are on safe ground, but I would NEVER hog tie a horse nor would I be friends with someone who thought this an acceptable practice. I can get an unruley horse under control without traumatizing them.

IMO if a horse is bad enough that these typpes of measures are being considered, sell it for dogfood and get a new horse.


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## Newby32 (Dec 4, 2011)

I googled hobbling and saw pictures, explanations, and video. She was definitely not talking about hobbling. What I watched/read was gentle.

She was talking about tying her feet together and keeping the mare on the ground for hours and hours until it became submissive. The reason I posted this question is because I was shocked that she was considering this.


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## Newby32 (Dec 4, 2011)

yadlim said:


> Ok
> 
> I am not above lying down a horse who has reared up by overbalancign them if they are on safe ground, but I would NEVER hog tie a horse nor would I be friends with someone who thought this an acceptable practice. I can get an unruley horse under control without traumatizing them.
> 
> IMO if a horse is bad enough that these typpes of measures are being considered, sell it for dogfood and get a new horse.


That's the thing! This horse is not even unruly. She acts up on the trail because she is barn sour. She does not rear, buck, etc. She tries to crow hop and go back home- that's it! Children have ridden this horse, but she is not responding well to her new "person". She gives her a testy attitude every ride, which is why she has begun to consider doing this. I'm just having a tough time with it.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

This is the right way.


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## yadlim (Feb 2, 2012)

Get as far away from that person as you can... they are not right in the head. 

It is possible they are trying to talk tough to hide that they don't know what they are doing - but not someone I would want to be around. Horses never act the same for every person who handles them. It takes someone who has been well educated to know that they don't know anything!

The day I stop learning is the day I drop dead!


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Newby32 said:


> Have you heard of hog tying a horse to have them become submissive to you? I was told that the feet would be tied together so that they could not get up and they *would lay on the ground for hours* after exhausting themselves from the struggle.


Horses down - especially prone - for a long period of time are at a great risk of fluid collecting in their lungs and developing pneumonia.


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## yadlim (Feb 2, 2012)

kevinshorses said:


> This is the right way.
> 
> CRAIG CAMERON AND CALI - YouTube


That man can touch my horse anytime!!! I usually just wait until they roll and walk up and give scratches. I have never had the guts to teach a horse to lie down - but man he can come out to my horses anytime!!


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

It think it used to be a fairly standard way of starting a horse, as well as a last-effort in taming a horse. Not so many people used it, though, because it could be dangerous to both man and horse. Also, I think the results weren't consistent.

In my experience, the horse was a young TB, very sweet, and the "breaker" was a kindly man. But he didn't let anyone watch him. A week later, the girl was happily riding her horse with NO problems-- in fact, the sweet young horse now had a sad, blank look, was completely quiet, and I wanted to cry. I was about twenty years old then, but I still remember how shocked I was by the difference. "His spirit was broken."

But I'm not going to condemn the practice completely, too many trainers I respect have explained and occasionally used this "total dominance", except to say that anything over about an hour would, in my opinion, be FAR too long and simply cruel.


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## Tianimalz (Jan 6, 2009)

Beling said:


> In my experience, the horse was a young TB, very sweet, and the "breaker" was a kindly man. But he didn't let anyone watch him. A week later, the girl was happily riding her horse with NO problems-- in fact, the sweet young horse now had a sad, blank look, was completely quiet, and I wanted to cry. I was about twenty years old then, but I still remember how shocked I was by the difference. "His spirit was broken."


I think there is a fine difference between a "Broke" horse, and one with just a broken spirit. It's pretty sad to see the fire go out in their eyes, you can just tell. 

I can't imagine why anyone (with the current knowledge we have with how the horse mind works) would hog tie a horse and leave them out for hours and hours... that is just abuse and is so so so wrong.

Now seeing that video, I can see how having a horse lay down and mess with their feet can be a trust exercise and very beneficial, I've actually done it a few times with good results. But by no means should anyone hog tie a flight animal and just leave it! It's mental torture for the poor thing... In my opinion.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

If a horse is laid down (NOT _tied _down) correctly by someone who knows what they are doing, then it can be beneficial for some horses. The biggest problem is that 99.999999% of the people who decide "throwing the horse" is a great idea have absolutely no idea what they are doing and end up causing a lot more problems and fixing none of the ones they started out with.

Also, like mls said, leaving a horse to lay prone for long periods of time is very dangerous for their health.

I have never laid a horse down. My Dad, who trained horses professionally for well over 40 years and messed with some of the most horrendously behaved horses anyone can imagine, never laid a horse down. Now, I'm not saying that I would never do it, but I would use it as more of a "very last resort" rather than a "first stop".

Anyone who's first response to a misbehaving horse that isn't dangerous is tying them down on the ground has zero horse sense at all and is not someone I would want to emulate and I _definitely_ wouldn't allow them to lay even a single hand on my horses.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Thanks, kevinshorses, for finding one of the links. Cameron has some very usuable advice. 
Re: OP, NONE of this will fix the herd sour.
Re: feet--I work with my geldings feet often by just picking UP the feet, holding, pulling forward, putting down again, ALL without picking out bc I want their best behavior...on the trail...for my farrier...in an emergency. The ONLY time I considered throwing a horse was when my elderly horse, "Toma" (1970-2004, RIP) bc he was arthritic, had overgrown feet and couldn't balance on 3 legs anymore. I was trying to figure out how to make a soft place that wouldn't crack a bone. Instead I just worked on one foot at a time with numerous up and put down to get him trimmed.
There are stories of the US Cavalry throwing (some) Mustang remounts to put on their first shoes. IF they survived battles with the "Indians" their riders worked on their foot manners, so they only had to do this once, and only long enough to get the shoes on.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

The difference between laying a horse down and throwing it down is more than just semantics. If you lay a horse down it gives up and lays down without much of a fight. When you throw one down with force it changes nothing in the horses mind and when you let the horse up again it's the same horse that it was before you threw it.


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## Newby32 (Dec 4, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> The difference between laying a horse down and throwing it down is more than just semantics. If you lay a horse down it gives up and lays down without much of a fight. When you throw one down with force it changes nothing in the horses mind and when you let the horse up again it's the same horse that it was before you threw it.


The difference in these two techniques was made very obvious by the video that you posted. It definitely looked like the trainer performed the ultimate trust exercise. Once the horse was down, he was extremely relaxed and accepting. It was actually very cool to watch.

Throwing a horse down and leaving it there to struggle for hours in order to obtain dominance is a whole different ball game. How long would it take for a horse to trust you after that? Maybe they never would, but would listen from fear of it happening again.


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## HarleyWood (Oct 14, 2011)

Ive never heard of that but i do tire mine out a diferent way. i tie their head to their saddle and let them deside if they want to spin for hours or learn to give in. it helped my 3 year old find out he has to listen and really streaches them out!!!!


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

kevinshorses said:


> This is the right way.
> 
> CRAIG CAMERON AND CALI - YouTube


I taught my horse to lie down on command using this method. I can now go out into the pasture, no halter/leadrope, pick up his foot and tell him down and he drops right down. That guy has amazing advice.

The person who wants to tie her horse down, should be tied down herself. That's just asking for trouble. Quite frankly, I hope she loses her battle and the horse teaches her a lesson.


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## Newby32 (Dec 4, 2011)

CLaPorte432 said:


> The person who wants to tie her horse down, should be tied down herself. That's just asking for trouble. Quite frankly, I hope she loses her battle and the horse teaches her a lesson.


She isn't even planning to do it herself. She's going to have a ranch hand do it. It just sounds like she got really bad advice. They want to break her spirit so that she won't give any problems when out on the trail. It sounds very "old school" to me and that's why I was wondering if this is really still done. There are so many better methods out there now that I don't understand why she would jump to this extreme. If the horse is too much trouble for her, then I think she should just choose another one that she is a better match with. This particular horse would probably do much better after some good ground work. Like I said, she's not that bad, just has a bit of a sour attitude.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

That's unfortunate. Some good training could completely turn her around.


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## draftgrl (Jan 8, 2011)

I just want to say a bit about the video of Craig C. First I do not have audio on my computer, not sure if this was stated, but for those who have not laid a horse down before, you MUST be careful about the rope around the foot. If the horse fights too much, you CAN injure the foot. Craig is a wonderful trainer but I would skip the lasso rope and use a cotton one. JMO

For the OP hopefully you can talk some sense into this person!


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

draftgrl said:


> I just want to say a bit about the video of Craig C. First I do not have audio on my computer, not sure if this was stated, but for those who have not laid a horse down before, you MUST be careful about the rope around the foot. If the horse fights too much, you CAN injure the foot. Craig is a wonderful trainer but I would skip the lasso rope and use a cotton one. JMO
> 
> For the OP hopefully you can talk some sense into this person!


My only issue with that video, is they didn't show all the work that had already been done to the horse. 

I can see some one watching this and going out and just throwing a rope on and trying this.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

If you did it like craig did it would probably have the same result. Judging by the horses reaction I'd say the horse had never been led by a foot or ever been laid down before. I don't think the horse had been prepared before the demo in any way.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Newby32 said:


> They want to break her spirit so that she won't give any problems when out on the trail.


There is a trainer in state we've had commplaints that uses the 'break their spirit' method. Horses do come out of training quiet, willing, etc. Until they start to figure the system out and then - holy hannah.

Better to take longer to get solid results than to get things done in 30 or 60 days.


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## draftgrl (Jan 8, 2011)

I doubt the horse has had any work done prior to the video pertaining to the rope around foot, and lying down. But he has had other work done, and seems to be a somewhat easy minded horse. Some are not and will fight quite a bit. People should only lay horses down if they are working with a reputable trainer, or have extensive horse experience.


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

How would we react if we were forced down by a stranger and tied up and left there for hours? I would be terrified and think I was going to die or be badly hurt. I would be quiet and submissive for a while after I was let up out of fear, maybe for a long time, but by god if i saw a way out of there I would be gone. And I am a predator, not a prey species...

I agree there is a big difference between being forced down and being asked to lay down by someone we trust.

From what you say I suspect the problem is with the human, not the horse. In my opinion, anyone who would go to these lengths with a horse isn't fit to be around them. There are plenty of gentle methods around... Perhaps she should buy herself a motorbike instead...


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## BornToRun (Sep 18, 2011)

Okaay, not sure how I posted in this thread when I haven't been on for days, sooo I'm gonna go change my password. Sorry if people don't like the comment I supposedly made, *I*, as a person, not my user, did not post in this thread, please disregard my first comment.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

This thread is interesting....I have laid a lot of horses down. Started colts using that method and used it on some naughty ones. I have seen a horse tarped before and I don't do it. But I will give you my take on laying one down and the thinking behind it. This may have been mentioned before and I can't play the Craig Cameron video.

Laying a horse down does _not_ break a horse's "spirit"!

Laying a horse down takes his legs away, you take the flight away and cause him to think rather than react. It is a way to build trust as well.

I have started a pile of colts by hobbling, saddling then laying him down sacking him out while he is laying down. Then I get him up and him down on the other side and do the same. Then climb on. I could get one started in a day rather than a couple of weeks. They were gentle but not broken or sad....

We did a little experiment on some the ranch colts, all the colts varied from 2-5 years old, untouched. When we started messing with them we laid half of them down and the other half we didn't. Guess which ones progressed faster....the ones we laid down.

I just did this a couple of weeks ago on a horse that I bought. He tried to jump the arena gate with me on him. Me and hubby laid him down on both sides. Jake sat on his neck and me on his hip while I rubbed him all over. 
He hasn't tried it since.

If you know how to do it correctly with out getting yourself hurt or hurt the horse it is a great tool. But done wrong, you may end up with a bigger mess than you started with.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

I'm not against LAYING a horse down, but _only_ if you absolutely know exactly what you're doing, and can do it in an efficient, calm manner that is beneficial to the horse and to do.

My mare, Sour, is the result of a complete idiot tryaing to play cowboy and 'lay her down' after she came from the pasture, almost a year old and untouched by humans. He basically just roped her front legs, let her stumble, jumped her, threw her on the ground like a calf, tied her back legs, and proceeded to shake all of her legs, swat her with his rope all over her body to 'desensatize her', sit on her side for a good 30 minutes, and finally letting her get up 3 hours later. By then she was terrified and lathered with sweat. And it did the exact opposite of 'tame' her or break her, it completely ruined her. 

By the time I got to her, Sour was a vicious monster of a horse. She would lunge at you with her teeth bared, kick, bite, rear, buck, you name it. Anything to keep you away from her. It took mean _YEARS_ to finally get her to where I could run a rope all over her body, touch her anywhere I wanted, or lead her anywhere I felt like. And she still hates men.

IMO its not a bad method, but its an easily messed up method, so its not in any way my idea of correct training.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Your friend is looking for a short cut. I'm not against laying a horse down but the person had better know what they are doing, not just say they know. It usually isn't necessary to lay one down for more than 10 or 15 min. A horse not allowed to get up feels vulnerable to attack. He will struggle at first then when he realizes it's pointless, he'll give up. When he lets out a big sigh, he has accepted that he will die. Then this nice person helps him up. Done correctly it can help a horse. Done badly, someone gets hurt. It won't fix her being anxious to get too far from home. That takes training.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Beling said:


> It think it used to be a fairly standard way of starting a horse, as well as a last-effort in taming a horse. Not so many people used it, though, because it could be dangerous to both man and horse. Also, I think the results weren't consistent.
> 
> In my experience, the horse was a young TB, very sweet, and the "breaker" was a kindly man. But he didn't let anyone watch him. A week later, the girl was happily riding her horse with NO problems-- in fact, the sweet young horse now had a sad, blank look, was completely quiet, and I wanted to cry. I was about twenty years old then, but I still remember how shocked I was by the difference. "His spirit was broken."
> 
> But I'm not going to condemn the practice completely, too many trainers I respect have explained and occasionally used this "total dominance", except to say that anything over about an hour would, in my opinion, be FAR too long and simply cruel.


If a trainer won't let you watch something it is something you don't want him to do.


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## draftgrl (Jan 8, 2011)

Any training method in the wrong hands can go bad. Unfortunatly you had one of those experiences Endiku. To me, lying a horse down is only to take their feet away, they cannot run, and then, they realize that it is not so bad. The only thing that touches a horse while they are down are my hands and the saddle on them of course.
This way they realize that you aren't there to harm them, scare them or anything of that nature. 
Hope the guy who did that to your horse is now paying for it, as in no one has him train their horses.


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> It usually isn't necessary to lay one down for more than 10 or 15 min. A horse not allowed to get up feels vulnerable to attack. He will struggle at first then when he realizes it's pointless, he'll give up. When he lets out a big sigh, he has accepted that he will die. Then this nice person helps him up. Done correctly it can help a horse. Done badly, someone gets hurt.


I'm sorry, I don't follow your logic. It was a human who put him in this vulnerable position, so how does that person untying him make him feel safe? Would making you think you were about to die and then letting you go help you to trust me? I suspect not, I surely wouldn't trust someone who had done it to me.

I'm not having a go at you Saddlebag, I know there are a lot of people who think it is good practice, and it is probably often because they genuinely don't know of any other methods. So very very sad.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

FrancesB said:


> I'm sorry, I don't follow your logic. It was a human who put him in this vulnerable position, so how does that person untying him make him feel safe? Would making you think you were about to die and then letting you go help you to trust me? I suspect not, I surely wouldn't trust someone who had done it to me.
> 
> I'm not having a go at you Saddlebag, I know there are a lot of people who think it is good practice, and it is probably often because they genuinely don't know of any other methods. So very very sad.


That isn't the right way to think when laying a horse down.

It is more like switching the brain from reacting to thinking.

I do know other methods other than laying one down but this can be effective when done correctly. Just like draftgrl said, any training method can be bad in the wrong hands.


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## chris buckley (Feb 25, 2012)

*hog tying horse*

i have known this done to a pony who was abused it made its bhaviour worse naturally. Should b dn to owner cant see any need.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

my lad being thrown (and i do mean thrown not laid down) is the root of most of his major issues! (and we are talking spectacularly major issues).

I see absolutly no need to have a horse on the ground. Yes the video looked ok, horse didnot look distressed in anyway etc but why do it? why is it nessecary in the first place? (btw i have no sound so if it was explained on the video i appologise).

Why is everyone in a geat rush to brake horses? 30 days training? heck at 30 days my lad still hadnt had a saddle on him. Why must we rush through basic training, why is it so important to get on a horse in one day? is it an ego thing? a kudos thing? to me anyone who said they could brake my horse in a month or less was instantly dismissed as i see absolutly no point in rushing things.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

FrancesB said:


> I'm sorry, I don't follow your logic. It was a human who put him in this vulnerable position, so how does that person untying him make him feel safe? Would making you think you were about to die and then letting you go help you to trust me? I suspect not, I surely wouldn't trust someone who had done it to me.


That's because you're thinking like a human. IMO, horses don't associate things like we do. If they did, no horse would ever let a bit be put in its mouth, allow a saddle to be put on its back and certainly wouldn't tolerate what we puny humans ask of them if they knew how big and powerful they really are. They don't make the same connections we do or have a sense of cause and effect. They live in the moment and think of one thing at a time.


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## yadlim (Feb 2, 2012)

faye said:


> I see absolutly no need to have a horse on the ground. Yes the video looked ok, horse didnot look distressed in anyway etc but why do it? why is it nessecary in the first place? (btw i have no sound so if it was explained on the video i appologise).
> 
> Why is everyone in a geat rush to brake horses? 30 days training? heck at 30 days my lad still hadnt had a saddle on him. Why must we rush through basic training, why is it so important to get on a horse in one day? is it an ego thing? a kudos thing? to me anyone who said they could brake my horse in a month or less was instantly dismissed as i see absolutly no point in rushing things.


Personally - I like two to threes years of prep work. I like to start yearlings with going out for walks in hand all over the place. I like to start two year olds lunging and ponying out with me on trail as well as some ground driving and long lining. At three, we can start in harness work. That means by the time we start under saddle at four, it is no big deal!!!

I like how the guy laid down the horse on the video. Were I younger, I would love to have him teach me how to do it. 

I would NEVER hog tie a horse. I have had to retrain ruined horses that people did this to as a teen.

I have laid down a horse before, and I have thrown them down. Sometimes, under controled conditions, it solves more trouble then it causes. 

The last time I laid down a horse was only about three months ago. Last summer, my daughter was given an untouched two and a half year old filly - one that we both knew that we did not have time to work with until spring. She has gotten loved on, but not really worked with, simply for a lack of time, but she is in a good situation where she is getting well cared for. One of the things I have been doing, is dragging her out with me on the trails, ponied off my gelding.

About the third time out, she took a dislike to a mule we passed in a pasture. My gelding glared at her as she started bucking and just acting the little brat. We were on a public one lane road - that luckily had no cars on it at the time. Anyway, filly is freaking out, the mule starts galloping and bucking, and my gelding is now getting ****sy. I can't just let her go, she will get killed by a car between where we are and home. She is not calming down, but now my horse is acting out. 

The filly started to throw herself backwards away from my gelding, trying to pull the line loose - it is not tied, but only wrapped about my horn. I waited until she was in a full backwards scramble, trying to pull away and let her have an extra three feet of rope - quickly while stepping my gelding up close to her so she went from oober tight to havign all the slack possible in less than two seconds. 

For everyone who could see it building, yup, she went right over backwards, landed on her back. As she stood back up, stunned but unhurt, I took back the extra rope and offered her some love. She leaned against my gelding (which he HATED, but took anyway) while I scratched on her for several minutes. We then walked easily home. 

Since then, she ponies on a lose line and has never once tried to pull away from my gelding. I have taken her out with us on long trail rides where she had to climb over obsticles and deal with motorcycles. She even does fine with going out with the green horses who spook at everything and act the complete idiot. She never pulls on her leadline which I can keep lightly looped over my saddle horn. 

In my younger days, when I worked retraining 'bad' horses in college, I sat several down. There is no faster way to convince a rearing horse that maybe they should stop that, then to overbalance them backwards and make them fall. 
###### Only do this if you are good enough to reblance them before they land on you! I have sat six horses down and all six were able to stand back up before falling - do not try this unless you are really really good at it!!###### 
But making them sit down for a moment makes them think twice about being a chronic rearer.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

FrancesB said:


> I'm not having a go at you Saddlebag, I know there are a lot of people who think it is good practice, and it is probably often because they genuinely don't know of any other methods. So very very sad.


That is so very very arrogant! Some of the very best horsemen in THE WORLD have used this technique. I've seen it work great. If I couldn't use it I'd do something different but I'd get it done. I don't use this method because I don't know any other way I use it (when I do) because I feel it's the best thing for the horse.


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

I have the same opinion as many people on this thread: Nothing wrong with laying a horse down, but many people will have a wreck trying it. The Craig Cameron video was the textbook way, but so many people will either get mad, get a horse tangled, or be in the wrong place. It's very easy for a horse to smack their cannon bone on the off-leg while jerking. If a horse steps on the rope before they learn to give, they'll panic and can get rope-burned. Don't let a gunsel try to lay yer horse down it'll all go south

Yes I agree with Kevin, that was arrogant to say. People that make their living with horses and use this technique usually place their horse's value above anything else they own. If it didn't improve the animal and make him a more settled, trusting partner, cowboys wouldn't do it.


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

kevinshorses said:


> That is so very very arrogant! Some of the very best horsemen in THE WORLD have used this technique. I've seen it work great. If I couldn't use it I'd do something different but I'd get it done. I don't use this method because I don't know any other way I use it (when I do) because I feel it's the best thing for the horse.


I'm sorry, I think you misunderstood me. As some of the other posters have said, there are many ways this practice can be used, from a gentle invitation to something like the 'tap' process Paul ?Williamson (Australian TB trainer) uses to dropping a horse and tying it up for hours as the original poster was describing. I was talking about the drastic process the original poster had described. 

I apologise if I offended. 

Perhaps you can use this technique well, but I hear so many stories of horses who suffered afterwards...


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## yourcolorfuladdiction (Feb 19, 2012)

I believe the purpose of this (the video) is basically what we would call a trust exercise. The horse has to assume a submissive position and trust that we are not going to attack them, and we, in turn show that we can be trusted. So tying a horse up and leaving it would completely defeat the purpose. You assist the horse and convince them it's safe to lie down and then reward them with pets when they do to show we are not a threat. And then ask the horse to lay on its side as long as he or she is still calm so that it is in a completely submissive position still being rewarded with pets. At any point if the horse panicked (once he dropped the lasso when the horse laid down) it could scramble and assume a standing position and the process would start all over again. The horse is laying down because it trusts the handler at that point (it may also think it can't get up but if it really wanted up it would get up). But it's not about making the horse submit, it's about showing the horse you can be trusted. Two completely different ways of thinking about it. (now I've never done this, this is just an assessment of the video and my experience with the equine psyche.)


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

faye said:


> Why is everyone in a geat rush to brake horses? 30 days training? heck at 30 days my lad still hadnt had a saddle on him. Why must we rush through basic training, why is it so important to get on a horse in one day? is it an ego thing? a kudos thing? to me anyone who said they could brake my horse in a month or less was instantly dismissed as i see absolutly no point in rushing things.


I realize that the majority of horse owners have that time. Either they are pleasure animals or going to be used for show and have that time to put in them to prepare for either a show career or a lifetime of trail riding.

But consider this....
Horses used to be work animals and there are still people who use them in that manner. We had a huge amount of cattle and used a fresh horse everyday sometimes two horses. (You will kill a horses desire to work and like his job if over worked.) Those horses only get worked once a week, that's a lot of horses. Extremely busy in the Spring, Summer and Fall working cattle, what little down time there is in the winter. That is when the starting of colts happens. Every year you need to have colts coming up otherwise in a couple short years all the horses are used up and nothing to replace. So after a half of day of pitching hay to hungry cows up to the their bellies in snow, there is a half day left of starting colts. Then these colts have to be ready to go to work in a couple short months. 

So if there is a method, when done correctly, that can speed up the time frame of gentling and training without being abusive or any more stressful than any other method...I think I might opt for it. 
When laying a horse down he isn't down for long, just enough to sack him out and relax a little. Shorter training sessions are proven to be more effective than lengthy ones anyhow.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

The Hybrid Horseman, aka Endospink, aka Paul Williams is the champ at laying horses down.

An Australian working originally in the TB industry in Japan, he found it more humane and quicker to do the horses this way. This was not just for breaking them but also for severe behaviour problems.

Google Hybrid Horseman and watch his colt starting and see how relaxed the horses are.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

COWCHICK77 said:


> So if there is a method, when done correctly, that can speed up the time frame of gentling and training without being abusive or any more stressful than any other method...I think I might opt for it.


This is exactly it, it's not that the training is being "rushed" when we put 30-60 days on a horse, but we really just don't have the time to spend months on groundwork preparing the horse for the first ride. Because of the limited time frame, good trainers have found methods that get results quick _without_ compromising the physical or emotional potential of the horse.

If you know what you are doing, you can get the same results in 30-60 days where it takes other trainers well over a year to accomplish the exact same thing.


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## blessed (May 28, 2011)

I would love to see you try that ---- with my horse!!Be sure to right a good bye letter first..Now hobbling is a dif story


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

blessed said:


> I would love to see you try that ---- with my horse!!Be sure to right a good bye letter first..Now hobbling is a dif story


How's that?


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

Horse Poor said:


> That's because you're thinking like a human. IMO, horses don't associate things like we do. .... They don't make the same connections we do or have a sense of cause and effect. They live in the moment and think of one thing at a time.


I realise this is off the original topic somewhat, but, if horses don't associate things, why do positive reward methods like clicker training work so well with them? I suspect most accept the bit, etc because they have learnt things will be worse for them if they don't.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

FrancesB said:


> I realise this is off the original topic somewhat, but, if horses don't associate things, why do positive reward methods like clicker training work so well with them? I suspect most accept the bit, etc because they have learnt things will be worse for them if they don't.



This is where timing and release comes into play. 
In order for horses to associate the the reward from the desired behaviour it has to be rewarded immediately, that is why timing is so important. You have a small window of time to reward as where if I was rewarding a human the window would be larger and the thought process more complex.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

blessed said:


> I would love to see you try that ---- with my horse!!Be sure to right a good bye letter first..Now hobbling is a dif story


How much do you want to bet that I could lay your horse down softly in less than an hour? I'm serious. I don't have a job right now and could use some money.


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## December (Feb 18, 2012)

Personally I am not a fan of forced submission, and that seems a little harsh, uhm I think I read somewhere that a horse lying down for too long which would mean probably more then 6 hours can die because their body weight crushes their organs? I don't know how true that is but regardless tying all four hooves together I don't think that's the best of ways to train a horse not even a crazy one, I feel that if people feel the need to do this to their horses they should probably seek help from a professional trainer first...just my opinions on it...but I have never heard of that method


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## blessed (May 28, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> How much do you want to bet that I could lay your horse down softly in less than an hour? I'm serious. I don't have a job right now and could use some money.


 I'm not going to bet you ,you may be able to but I will have to say you don't know this horse.I will say that a vet and 7 people with the horse on ace could not keep him down.. 

Anyway I should have read the whole forum before I posted because I thought she was speaking of throwing a horse down :shock: to gain his trust which is totally diff than laying him down..


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

FrancesB said:


> I realise this is off the original topic somewhat, but, if horses don't associate things, why do positive reward methods like clicker training work so well with them? I suspect most accept the bit, etc because they have learnt things will be worse for them if they don't.


Cowchick has it right.

IN MY OPINION
Frances, I didn't say that horses don't associate things, I said they don't associate things *like we do*. Take the bit as an example…unless something bad happens at the time the bit is being put into the mouth, they don't object to it and make no association that when you pull the reins (engaging the bit) that it is you, or even the bit for that matter, that is causing the pressure. All they know is what they feel *at that time*. IF the bit causes pain at the time it is being put into the mouth, such as banging the teeth, then they will negatively react to it at that time (high headed, clamped teeth, refusal, backing out of the bridle, etc.) even though once in and properly used, the bit causes no pain. If the bit causes pain during use, they will try everything possible to avoid/evade it (stargazing, head slinging, over bent, etc.) but you will still be able to bridle them (put the bit in their mouth) without a problem because there was no pain when you bridled them. They make no association between you and the bit. Horses don't understand cause and effect - they don't have a clue that if they never allowed a bit in their mouth that it would be better or worse for them. They don't think about it about it one way or the other. Life for them simply is what it is at the time.


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## QOS (Dec 8, 2008)

Kevin, that was an AMAZING video. I am going to show that to my hubby.

On the subject of "laying a horse down" there is some very good reasons for training a horse for this. My cousin Bruce is a serious roper - and he told about his horse getting tangled once in some wire and the horse laid quietly while he cut him loose - literally not a scratch on the horse because he didn't panic. (the horse or Bruce). 

Recently, my hubby's horse was going up an embankment, lost his footing and almost came over backwards on hubby - but went to the side instead. Still, he went over and landed on hubby's leg and Sarge's legs were up against an embankment - kind of like being cast in a stall. My cousin and her hubby were with Barry and nearly had a stroke because Sarge didn't move a muscle. My cousin thought he had broke his leg. Sarge actually was just fine. He waited until his master said " get up Sarge!" and then Sarge was able to get up. My cousin told me "that horse has had some SERIOUS training." She said "Ray (former owner) must had laid him down" My husband's horse is very well trained, extremely loving and gentle as a kitten. Not afraid of people in any shape form or fashion. 

I called former owner (oddly enough I had seen him the day Barry and Sarge fell - I was riding in one place and hubby in another) and asked him if he had laid Sarge down. I didn't tell him why. He said "yes, I lay down all of my horses when they are being trained. Not to teach dominance - but to teach patience". 

I was extremely grateful Ray had laid Sarge down. Sarge didn't panic and scramble to get up and in the process hurt/kill hubby or himself. He stayed stock still until his owner said otherwise. Sarge trusts Barry not to hurt him...and in return he didn't hurt Barry. 

This happened 6 weeks ago. Sarge got alot of sand in his left eye and we had to flush it out several times. He and Barry were soaking wet and muddy from head to toe!!! 

We have owned Sarge almost 3 years. He is a 10 year old Quarter Horse. I can see where this is an extremely valuable training tool in the right hands. It could also be an extremely dangerous one in the wrong hands for both man and horse.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

blessed said:


> I'm not going to bet you ,you may be able to but I will have to say you don't know this horse.I will say that a vet and 7 people with the horse on ace could not keep him down..
> 
> Anyway I should have read the whole forum before I posted because I thought she was speaking of throwing a horse down :shock: to gain his trust which is totally diff than laying him down..


If it's done right he would lay down because he wanted to not because I was forcing him. Not only would I not have to hold him down but I would probably have to encourage him to get up. I've never had help to lay any horse down and I've laid down some big, stout, not-very-friendly horses.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

An Aussie trainer then working in Japan with racehorses. He starts them by getting them down without ropes.

I would allow him to train any of my horses because of his calmness and the fact he is a brilliant rider.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

When laying a horse down, it is important to wait for a big sigh before getting him up. The sigh denotes submission. The sight usually occurs within about 10 min. A wee story. A gal was trail riding her new jumper in early spring across an icey cold flooded field. Horse dropped like a sack of potatoes, she was soaked and freezing so of course she remounted and hurried home. The next time she rode horse dropped again in the icey water. Again she was wet. The third time we went prepared. He dropped, she got on his neck to keep him down while I tapped him bum with a riding crop. Not to hurt him but he'd tighten his muscles. When he relaxed after about 10 min. he let out the big sight. She was on him as he was getting up. We continued our ride. The horse never dropped again.


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## eliduc (Apr 5, 2010)

Ok.Throwing a horse is no job for an amateur. Either the handler or the horse can be injured. When you restrain a horse's feet most horses panic and throw themselves and then often cannot get back up. Taking the rigging off a horse on the ground when it is underneath it is a little ticky. I have sidelined many horses as a farrier and a lot of them threw themselves. It is traumatic for a horse to be on the ground restrained and many will go into a catatonic state. It's the same state an antelope goes into when taken down by a lion. You can lift a leg up and it will remain suspended. A horse in this state is not learning a thing. They are glassy eyed and completely out of it. Anyone who would leave a horse in this state any length of time is insane. Often it is necessary to pour a bucket of water on their head to bring them out of it. Some horses will go catatonic when they are cast. In this case it may keep them from injuring themselves. I learned other ways of working with bad actors. I still do side line my own horses to teach them to stand and not struggle if they get hung up in wire but they are good and gentle before I do it. In the old days a lot of sidelined green horses suffered dislocated hips.


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## Logibear24 (Nov 8, 2011)

If they break that horses spirit it will be like a robot doing what you want for the wrong reasons. Wouldn't she rather have a horse that wants to work with her? 

Sad how people feel the need to do these things. Yes you need to be the dominant one in the relationship but you don't need to over power your horse completely mentally :s I used to train my horses to lay down using the same exersises shown In the video and it was a great experience and helped build my relationship with my horse. It sounds like she needs to build her horses trust more before she trys anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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