# Please everyone sign!



## Theissyhunterjumper (Jan 16, 2012)

Okay I came across this when watch Chelsea Lately and it absolutely horrified me… it's about the NYC horse carriages! Please sign the petition to stop this and help raise money for the alternative green car! For more info and to sign go to New Yorkers for Clean, Livable & Safe Streets (NYCLASS)
i swear i signed this 6 different times!


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## jasperlover (Apr 11, 2012)

I did!!!!


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

QOUTE
Horses do not belong in a congested, urban setting where they are constantly breathing exhaust and sharing the streets with cars, buses and taxis. It is even more upsetting to know that during their non-working hours these horses are confined to tiny stables and do not enjoy access to the open space that such large animals require.

I love New York but seeing such an inhumane industry continue to operate here disappoints me. Please consider phasing out the horse-drawn carriages and replacing them with a more humane, sustainable option such as the electric vintage-replica tour car proposed in the NYC Council bill, Intro 86.
UNQTE

just bassed on these two paragraphs is not enough to make me sign...
one reason is because if exhaust and such is so bad that we need to ban animals then hell we need to ban humans as well since we would be breathing the same air.

two if you actually go to see there stable the only difference between these stables and any other is that the horse have to go up a ramp to get to there stalls.. the stalls are the same size as normal stalls 12x12 and 12x14 and so forth to keep the animal comfortable 

three if its so dangerous for horses with drivers constantly with them to work in the city its obvisously to dangerous for children who are unsupervised to be in the city...

four - all the horses are sent to a private farm where they get a day off and have time romping in the field which is more than i can say for some horses at private facilities who don't have access to any turnout

when they come up with other reasons then the ones stated in these paragraphs then maybe i would consider signing..but i doubt it since these horses have a job, give people jobs in this rough economy and get better treatment then some backyard horses i don't see an issue with having them in the city.


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## xxdanioo (Jan 17, 2012)

I'm sure these horse's have it pretty good. They are the income. Why treat your money maker bad? I'm pretty sure it takes some time to train horses to carriage drive.. so why would they treat them badly?


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I work in NYC. I just went out to get a soda. Every night about this time the carriage horses are heading up to Central Park. Tonight I watched 3 go by 5' from where I was standing. Two beautiful Percherons and what looked like a Morgan. All were trotting along happily up 10th Avenue along with the traffic, backs swinging and tails flowing. Please do some extensive research before jumping on the first ignorant based bandwagon that comes along.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

not to mention, that is this is boycotted those horses will have no job, their owners will need to get rid of them and slaughter will be a definite possibility for them. Better to work toward improving the condiitions for them at the stalls.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

This just BURNS me up. Leave it to PETA to turn something like this completely around. I read an article a few years ago about the lives of the carriage horses in NYC, and let me tell you, it is FAR from what the video depicts. These people aren't going to abuse and starve their source of income.


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## MissColors (Jul 17, 2011)

I agree that horses shouldn't be worked for hours and not fed but if they are being taken care of then I don't see a problem with it. Its no different than a horse that is trained yo drive for classes. Think about how much goes into that. What about the fine horse officers that work in NYC and our other great cities.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

MissColors said:


> I agree that horses shouldn't be worked for hours and not fed but if they are being taken care of then I don't see a problem with it. _Posted via Mobile Device_


Again, the information is completely incorrect. When a horse gets done walking a customer around the park, they pull into the back of the line like a cab at the airport and wait for their next customer. While they are standing there chilling out, their driver provides them with a bucket of grain and a bucket of water. I'm surprised some of these horses are not overweight. The eat very very well.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I've seen this video. I watched it with Lea Michele's poorly informed commentary and then I muted it. I suggest all of you do the same. The first time, you'll see "poor, abused ickle ponehs", then after muting, you'll see horses doing their job with absolutely nothing wrong.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

signed!


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

They tried to go after Disney for their carriage horses a few years ago when I was still working there. I hear a LOT of people complaining or saying how sorry they feel for the horses there, yada yada yada... they work all day long, yada yada. But people only know what they see, and if they don't work for that company, they don't know what really goes on behind the scenes.

I'm NOT saying the New York Carriage Horse issues isn't bad, it is. But I also know Peta blows things way out of proportion and if they had their way, people wouldn't even RIDE a horse.

BTW, the Disney horses... well they only work 2 hours a day, 4 days a week. The rest of their time they are in a big dry lot with their buddies being... well, lazy horses doing the same things our horses do in their stables. It kind of makes me wonder about Carriage horses not only in NY but Kansas City, LA, and all of the other places you see them..... do they really work for hours or are they rotated out too.

I think some things just merit a little more in depth investigation. Are the horses REALLY worked all darn day? Do they never have days off? And yes, those stalls look like DEATH TRAPS....that DOES need to be fixed. But we also have to think of things like where will these horses go if/when they are put out of work? What happens to them then??? 

One last question, if their life is really THAT bad, why do they seem fit and healthy instead of poorly conditioned and emaciated??


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## robohog (Nov 24, 2011)

Wont be signing


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## MissColors (Jul 17, 2011)

MyBoyPuck said:


> Again, the information is completely incorrect. When a horse gets done walking a customer around the park, they pull into the back of the line like a cab at the airport and wait for their next customer. While they are standing there chilling out, their driver provides them with a bucket of grain and a bucket of water. I'm surprised some of these horses are not overweight. The eat very very well.


I didn't sign. Just summed up pretty much the general statement on how every horse should be treated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

*shakes head* -- anyone who would blindly sign ANY petition without doing their own, independent, research into the issue is not someone who's opinion I can take seriously.


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## sjwrightauthor (Feb 5, 2012)

There are several issues that PETA pursues that I agree with, but this one is ridiculous. The only questionable thing I saw was one horse standing in a regular tie stall (not a box stall) and he looked a little dirty. If these horses were truly being abused, the whole industry would have come to a halt a long time ago. 

I agree that most of these horses are probably treated a lot better than some of the backyard horses here in Texas. If people want to concentrate on animal abuse, they need to look beyond the bored carriage horse standing in front of their office building. There are horses in this country that have much worse jobs or no care at all.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I would also like to point out that this petition is coming from the same organization that tried to have Congress amend the 13th Amendment (Slavery) to include animals so they could force SeaWorld to free their orcas. Just a thought.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Hey, if PETA is so ****ed about the living conditions, maybe they can offer to purchase some land in Manhattan to give the horses larger stalls. Lets see how much they care about doing that after they find out how much $$ that would set them back. Those straight stalls will start looking like spacious paddocks.


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## Theissyhunterjumper (Jan 16, 2012)

The reason why I'm against this is there was horse carriages where I live until last year. And these horses were not in the best condition and on top of that 5 were kill in 1 month because they were hit by cars. I'm not saying absolutely every horse is treated horribly but I just don't like the idea of horses walking through heavy traffic…that was my biggest issue. I donto even riding my horses on the roads because I've seen too many careless drivers
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Are you talking about the Amish buggies? They have NOTHING to do whatsoever with NYC carriage horses.

I won't even get into what I think of people trying to impose their own beliefs on a religious sect that's known for hard work, and just asks to be allowed to live their lives without persecution.


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## Theissyhunterjumper (Jan 16, 2012)

^^Noo no.No there just like the one in NYC ^^ I hAve noooo problem with that sort of buggies my horse came from the Amish and are all treated very good from my experience
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

You do realize that PETA finds what YOU do (simply keeping and, God forbid, riding a horse) to be cruelty to your horse(s), don't you, OP?


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## Theissyhunterjumper (Jan 16, 2012)

Yes I do understand. Like I said I'm just not a fan in my own experience of what I've seen with some of the carriage horses. I'm not fully behind on everything PETA does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Theissyhunterjumper said:


> The reason why I'm against this is there was horse carriages where I live until last year. And these horses were not in the best condition and on top of that 5 were kill in 1 month because they were hit by cars. I'm not saying absolutely every horse is treated horribly but I just don't like the idea of horses walking through heavy traffic…that was my biggest issue. I donto even riding my horses on the roads because I've seen too many careless drivers
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's when you have to look at all sides of things. It's not quite so black and white and sometimes things that people come up with, thinking it will solve a problem, only end up making more problems, and sometimes those problems are even worse. Completely outlawing them would put these horses out of work. Which means, the people owning them may not be able to afford to keep/feed the animals. What happens to them then? That could actually lead to worse disaster.

However, researching, find a bill/petition or perhaps starting your own that comes up with a better answer may be what's needed. What about petitioning for a bill to make sure they have reasonably clean and safe stalls? What about petitioning for a bill to create a safer working environment for them such as only working on streets where automobiles are not allowed or creating carriage only easeways?. I have seen a lot of carriages in CA that are run on non-automobile/pedestrian only streets. Something like that would solve the problem without causing more problems that can cause the horses to go to slaughter or into worse conditions.

The thought of signing in a bill to fix one problem, but create others just doesn't seem like much of a solution, especially for the horses.


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## Theissyhunterjumper (Jan 16, 2012)

Does anyone really feel like this bill will be passed?? I don't. But If it does create an uprise I hope it does make them change their condition.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I think what you are missing here is well intentioned people who treat their animals well will always do so with or without a government telling them to do so. Conversly, someone who doesn't give a crap won't suddenly change their mind just because some obtuse law was passed saying something is no longer permitted. All legislation does is drag the good people down with the bad who aren't going to change their ways no matter what the law says, and in the case of your issue with carriage horses, not everyone even agrees with your point of view. Your government was never meant to be your conscience. That's what you have a mind of your own for. Use it to treat your animals like gold and understand that you will not always agree with what others do with theirs. While it's fading fast, this is still primarily a free country.


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## Theissyhunterjumper (Jan 16, 2012)

Said I know what you guys are all saying and I do agree with most of what was said and i guess ive changed some aspects of my mind but i still dont think NYC is the place for_ any_ horse. In *my* opinion


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## IquitosARG10 (Aug 27, 2011)

I think that both opinions may be uniformed. You can't prove that all the horses are being treated like the ones in the video, and those that are claiming all the horses get turnout time and pasture time and buckets of feed and water...have you followed around every carriage in NYC to make sure the horses are being treated properly? I highly doubt it...so then you can't make such a quick judgement either.

I see the carriage horses in Chicago and some look healthy, some just really don't. So before either side goes and makes some all inclusive statement, I suggest you go out and research it first.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

Theissyhunterjumper said:


> The reason why I'm against this is there was horse carriages where I live until last year. And these horses were not in the best condition and on top of that 5 were kill in 1 month because they were hit by cars. I'm not saying absolutely every horse is treated horribly but I just don't like the idea of horses walking through heavy traffic…that was my biggest issue. I donto even riding my horses on the roads because I've seen too many careless drivers
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


if horses can't walk through heavy traffic after being trained to deal with such things then why on earth do parents get away with letting children under 10 walk the streets alone???

i am not saying its not dangerous but if we are going to ban something for being to dangerous for an animal who is considered below us in intelligence then why are we not doing the same for the human race. 

the problem is not the horses, the problem is the ignorant humans that drive like maniacs thru the city because they are trying to make more money by driving like nascar drivers...

best solution for both animals and HUMAN would be to put some speed bumps in and force cars to go the speed limit since obvisously ticketing them is not changing anything. that alone would help reduce risk of humans and horses and dogs and cats being hit by cars... just a thought


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## candandy49 (Jan 16, 2011)

While I think for the most part, there are some who may not be, the carriage horses are being well taken care of in their off time and rest breaks. What I see in a horse walking/trotting on the hard surfaces of streets is the hardship to hooves and leg structures. However, obviously, hopefully the carriage horses are shod with the shock absorbing type shoes or are they barefoot? I know for a fact that horses on surfaces such as streets can and do have trouble with loosing traction on hard surfaces. Anyone know about the shoes on carriage horses? Ringbone is a common affliction to horses who are exposed to prolonged stress of concussion on hard surfaces. High ringbone involves the pastern joint area and low ringbone the coffin joint area.

I did not sign the petition!! I do have an opinion of PETA and I don't think they would want to hear it.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

everytime i have gone to the stables or went to see the horses standing around waiting they all had shoes... however not sure what type of shoe


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Theissyhunterjumper said:


> Said I know what you guys are all saying and I do agree with most of what was said and i guess ive changed some aspects of my mind but i still dont think NYC is the place for_ any_ horse. In *my* opinion


In my opinion, your opinion carries no weight since it is based on ignorance.

When was the last time you went to NYC?

When was the last time you visited the Carriage Association's stables?

Are you aware that the NYC ASPCA's head veterinarian resigned her position after she was told to falsify reports of the horses' condition?

I think not.


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## HagonNag (Jul 17, 2010)

I won't be signing. If carriage horses in NYC are treated so horribly, I can only imagine the torture to which the the police horses are subjected! NOT. 

All I have to do is see "PETA" and I usually know where I stand in any debate. I know it's wrong...it just is. They have totally destroyed any credibility they might have with me.


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## Theissyhunterjumper (Jan 16, 2012)

You gave have really brought in a different aspect to this thread& have changed a lot of my opinions so, one last question, would you put your horse in their place?


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I am so tired of PETA and the crap they feed to uninformed people!

Perfect example is the ignorant girl in the video....she obviously knows nothing about horses and is under the assumption that horses sleep laying down all night..or relax in an easy chair recliner WTF?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Theissyhunterjumper said:


> You gave have really brought in a different aspect to this thread& have changed a lot of my opinions so, one last question, would you put your horse in their place?


What place? The city? If I lived in NY, I'd want my horse with me, so yes.

There are a lot of horses in NYC. Many belong to private citizens as well as those who are in the carriage trade or police horses.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

Theissyhunterjumper said:


> You gave have really brought in a different aspect to this thread& have changed a lot of my opinions so, one last question, would you put your horse in their place?


 
i would i know for a fact my horse would love being anywhere including the city over going to the slaughter house...


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

COWCHICK77 said:


> I am so tired of PETA and the crap they feed to uninformed people!
> 
> Perfect example is the ignorant girl in the video....she obviously knows nothing about horses and is under the assumption that horses sleep laying down all night..or relax in an easy chair recliner WTF?


 
haha cowchick i left out the rest of my commentary about the speaker in the video... lol


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> What place? The city? If I lived in NY, I'd want my horse with me, so yes.
> 
> There are a lot of horses in NYC. Many belong to private citizens as well as those who are in the carriage trade or police horses.



I spent a summer keeping a horse in NYC and it was rubbish, more for me than for her. It was a summer job in the Brooklyn DA's office while I was at uni. I was living in Manhattan and the closest stables were in Riverdale, something just across the river in New Jersey, Prospect Park in Brooklyn, and Staten Island. There is also a stable on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, but they don't take boarders. The Riverdale one was by far the nicest but no way could I have afforded it. The NJ one was nice as well but also unaffordable. Perhaps they've redone it, but the Brooklyn barn had the world's smallest indoor arena and rather grotty stables, though in retrospect it probably would have been okay. I kept the horse in Staten Island and learned to despise the commute. I only saw her on weekends as I worked 'till about 6 and it would have been a nightmare to drive to Staten Island afterwards. The barn owner was also a lunatic but that's a different story. 

My conclusion after that summer was that while it is possible to live in NYC and keep a horse, it sucks. 

As far as the carriage horses went, all the ones I saw looked like they were in great condition.


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## furbabymum (Dec 28, 2011)

Theissyhunterjumper said:


> You gave have really brought in a different aspect to this thread& have changed a lot of my opinions so, one last question, would you put your horse in their place?


 Absolutely not. My Paso Fino couldn't pull a carriage. If I owend a clydesdale it would be a different story.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

thesilverspear said:


> My conclusion after that summer was that while it is possible to live in NYC and keep a horse, it sucks.


The OP asked a simple question, so I gave her a simple answer. If I HAD to live in NYC, I'd want my horse there with me. 

The fact that I despise cities and would rather slit my throat than live in one, has nothing to do with the question.


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## furbabymum (Dec 28, 2011)

My favorite part was where she talked about the flammable hay and how the horses couldn't escape if there was a fire. 

Umm, I'm pretty sure ALL Stables have that horrid flammable hay around and I'm fairly certain the horses can't open the doors to escape if it were to catch fire.


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## sandy2u1 (May 7, 2008)

> All I have to do is see "PETA" and I usually know where I stand in any debate. I know it's wrong...it just is. They have totally destroyed any credibility they might have with me.




It is sad that it has come to that, but I feel the same way.

​


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

PETA-should be spelled PITA (Pain in the A--!)

THey lost all credibility with me LONG ago, then when all the puppy mill crap in our little town came up, they really got on my last nerve. I am sure, as with any group, there are some who are fairly normal, but from what I have seen, they have way more than their share of folks with only one oar in the water. When I went to their site-just to see what it was like.....and saw they even have one group saving goldfish...Really? Maybe they would rather be Sushi.


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## attackships (Jan 12, 2012)

PETA is a disgusting terrorist organization. They have no credibility with me with any of their endeavors, i even hate their ridiculous adverts. 

i was reading not too long ago how some anti carriage lobbying groups were shooting down every attempt to improve the conditions of these horses. It was in their interest to make sure cars could kill the horses because in their mind, the more dangerous it was the more people they could rally to end it. To me that is deplorable. If people are truly advocating humane treatment of animals, they should be eager to figure out how to prevent accidents or mistreatment of any kind. 

im probably usually in the minority on this forum when it comes to issues of "animal rights" but that does NOT mean i support PETA in any way. They are purely reactionary.

ETA: i followed the advice of someone above and muted the video to watch. It's hilarious because all it shows is working horses trotting around perfectly content. plus and one grainy shot of a horse that laid down on its pee spot. ~_oh but i thought they had no room to lay down and get REM sleep_~


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

I've been to NYC several times, of course the air quality is nothing compared to what I have here in the mountains, but in comparison to other large cities it's pretty decent! The horses I saw were in excellent condition and having a good old time. Back in the early 1900's and late 1800's there was a SEVERE air quality problem, much worse than today.
Here's for tradition and keeping it alive, agree 1,000%, if PITA (stealing that Franknbeans!) has a problem they should offer some dinero to fix it and provide the purdy wittle ponehs wid sum pasture.


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## horsemadgirl (Aug 23, 2011)

i've done it!


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I am guessing that those who ARE signing are not of an age for it to make any difference.:think:


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

On-line petitions; the lazy person's way to 'be proactive' about something, while sitting on their butts doing absolutely nothing. :-?

If any of you were_ really_ serious about doing something you'd be out there picketing and protesting, offering to give a home to all the horses that will be put out of work, as well as supporting their owners financially.

But then, you know absolutely_ nothing_ about the actual situation, so listen to some moronic garbage spieled by some completely uninformed person, and decide that carriage horses are being abused and tortured. :-x

Agreed, Frank. The only ones signing this drivel are naive, impressionable tweens and young teens who believe whatever the celebrity of the moment is spewing.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

horsemadgirl said:


> i've done it!


Good Lord..........:?


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## caseymyhorserocks (Apr 5, 2010)

Theissyhunterjumper said:


> You gave have really brought in a different aspect to this thread& have changed a lot of my opinions so, one last question, would you put your horse in their place?


No I would not bring Casey into the city because it would be in her best interest.. Although I love her dearly and don't know how I would cope without her, she would be miserable in the city.. The carriage horses that work in the city enjoy their work and really suffer no more than the Grand Prix jumping horses.. Or reining.. Dressage.. Or any other discipline.

What is your opinion on the police horses that work in cities? They majority of them have huge stalls- usually around 16x16- and retired to big open fields at age 15... 

Saying that every carriage horse is not being treated right just based off of Peta's petition and a video by a "famous" person, and then signing a petition to stop it is bull. If you think, "oh not all horses or being mistreated, just some," if that bill is passed, what do you think would happen to the majority of the horses that are being treated right? In every discipline, dressage, roping, whatever, there is going to be abuse.. Heck lets ban everything to do with horses! No more abuse!


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

A carriage ride is always on my list of things to do in the Big Apple.

I don't like the housing for some of them.

But, at the end of the day they are fed warm and dry.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

When I was in Southern CA, yes my horse was in the city. Air quality isn't the greatest that close to Los Angeles, not as many places to ride, and yes we had to ride streets to get to the trails.

But my horse was happy... had no health issues and loved her life. Our stables were beautifully kept, even if they did have all that flammable hay around. The only thing my horse ever saw as a threat were those pesky left turn arrows painted on the streets and sometimes the crosswalk lines were a little scary. She didn't give a crap about the cars, smog, noise, etc. Most likely because that is what she knew her whole life.

Now my horse here in the "country"... or Nebraska... He has anxiety, acid reflux disorder and most likely ulcers. The gravel roads seem to do far more harm to his feet and hooves than the asphalt did to my other horse. There are so many things here that are scary to him, than there were in CA for my other horse.

It just goes to show that horses are what their environment makes them. They are adaptable. If they live lifelong in a place, then they are used to that environment and it has little effect on them.

If it was affordable, then yes I would have a horse in NYC. Would I bring my current horse, maybe not as I could imagine what such a huge change would do to his stress levels, acid reflux and ulcers that he ALREADY has. I know of a few horses' that could probably handle the move though.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

franknbeans said:


> I am guessing that those who ARE signing are not of an age for it to make any difference.:think:


 Especially as the OP claimed she signed six times....


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## greenbryerfarms (Apr 9, 2012)

i think its great! if i rode my horse into town id get looked at like wtf? and my town has like 5000 people... but i can ride my horse in nyc and not be bothered?


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

greenbryerfarms said:


> i think its great! if i rode my horse into town id get looked at like wtf? and my town has like 5000 people... but i can ride my horse in nyc and not be bothered?


Ha ha,I remember riding with my friends through the drive through at KFC on our horses when I was 14. Our biggest problem was trying to get someones foot/hoof to hit the sensor!


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

equiniphile said:


> Especially as the OP claimed she signed six times....


:rofl::rofl: Gotta love karma.....it truly is a b-----! PITA won't get far with this one!


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

I haven't read all the posts but my answer to signing is NO. Yes the conditions could be better for the horses but they don't look like they are neglected or abused.

If you change the E in PETA to an I, you get a different saying but the same meaning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Theissyhunterjumper (Jan 16, 2012)

No…I didn't actually sign it six times. I'm just saying that I don't agree with everything about how the carriage horses are.…and you seems to me your trying to make me out to be some PETA freak, which I'm not. I have _my_ own opinions, some you have changed. Let's leave it at that.……


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## Theissyhunterjumper (Jan 16, 2012)

Oh and I'm not ignorant… it's not like I saw one website and was like I just sign it. I looked at several other websites and it was not peta, and based *some* things from my own experience and what I've seen.


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## furbabymum (Dec 28, 2011)

The thing is you have no experience with NYC carriage horses. A carriage ride in NYC and one in Ohio are going to be DRASTICALLY different. 
Let me use bike riding as an example. Ft Collins, CO has a huge bike riding population. They also have a lot of deaths. If I were to compare that to my home, Cheyenne, WY. Well bike riders in CO must be at a huge risk because we have no deaths. Know why that is? We have very few riders and even fewer paths on the street. Totally different circumstances for the exact same thing.


Theissyhunterjumper said:


> Oh and I'm not ignorant… it's not like I saw one website and was like I just sign it. I looked at several other websites and it was not peta, and based *some* things from my own experience and what I've seen.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I agree ^ It's just like saying cities have a high murder rate than the country... It's just because more people live in a city.

And last time I heard, PETA was all for horse slaughter?


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## Theissyhunterjumper (Jan 16, 2012)

^really I'm surprised! I figure they would be jumping down theyre throats! And I know what you guys are saying.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I don't think so. I would not sign anything that has anything to do with PETA even if the cause was just. You won't find my name on anything of theirs.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> The OP asked a simple question, so I gave her a simple answer. If I HAD to live in NYC, I'd want my horse there with me.
> 
> The fact that I despise cities and would rather slit my throat than live in one, has nothing to do with the question.


Aye, I know. I was just happily reliving fond memories, mainly of sitting in the Holland Tunnel or on the Verrazano Narrows Bridge moving at 2mph.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

A daily occurrence where I grew up. Funny, until I moved to Nebraska I thought this was NORMAL everywhere.


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## BlueIce (Feb 19, 2012)

It does seem that PETA have become extremists & have no credibility at all. I turn off when I here PETA these days. It's a shame though, it probably started from humble begginings.

I feel sorry for the animals that they could have saved in the future from genuine hardships, due to the fact they are now a complete joke & cannot be taken seriously.​


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Theissyhunterjumper said:


> Oh and I'm not ignorant… it's not like I saw one website and was like I just sign it. I looked at several other websites and it was not peta, and based *some* things from my own experience and what I've seen.


First you have no first hand knowledge of any of this.

Second, the mere fact that the NYC ASPCA's head veterinarian quit over allegations she was forced to make false statements in the death of a carriage horse destroys any and all credibility of the radical animal rights activists.

The huge problem with the internet is that it allows children to inject themselves in the affairs of adults.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Theissyhunterjumper said:


> ^really I'm surprised! I figure they would be jumping down theyre throats! And I know what you guys are saying.


PETA kills virtually every pet they "rescue". Plenty of credible reports on this out there for anyone inclined to look.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

mildot said:


> First you have no first hand knowledge of any of this.
> 
> Second, the mere fact that the NYC ASPCA's head veterinarian quit over allegations she was forced to make false statements in the death of a carriage horse destroys any and all credibility of the radical animal rights activists.
> 
> The huge problem with the internet is that it allows children to inject themselves in the affairs of adults.


Mildot-I think the OP is referring to the horses in her own town, that she told us about in one of her posts. That would be the first hand knowledge she refers to.

And-with reference to your last statement-true, but it also allow any idiot with a computer, no matter what their age, to find something to support anything they want to believe. True or not.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

thesilverspear said:


> Aye, I know. I was just happily reliving fond memories, mainly of sitting in the Holland Tunnel or on the Verrazano Narrows Bridge moving at 2mph.


Shudder! I remember well the HOURS it took to get into the city when I was working in Washington, DC. 

On a GOOD day it took upwards of 2 hours to go less than 50 miles. I don't miss the traffic, that's for sure!


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

franknbeans said:


> but it also allow any idiot with a computer, no matter what their age, to find something to support anything they want to believe.


You mean like "it's OK to yank repeatedly on a horse's mouth"?


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## StephanieAnne (Apr 17, 2012)

That Chelsea Lately show was such a waste of my life. The whole 5 min. Another bunch of people who do no investigative work. What a shame. Leave the Carriage Horses alone and find out where abuse is REALLY taking place..and help THEM.


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## shire100 (Apr 17, 2012)

equiniphile said:


> This just BURNS me up. Leave it to PETA to turn something like this completely around. I read an article a few years ago about the lives of the carriage horses in NYC, and let me tell you, it is FAR from what the video depicts. These people aren't going to abuse and starve their source of income.


The A.R.A. have out and out lied about the N.Y. carriage horses. If anyone post the facts on there Fb page they will delete Your comments and ban You.I have kept records of this and I can prove it.


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## shire100 (Apr 17, 2012)

Theissyhunterjumper said:


> The reason why I'm against this is there was horse carriages where I live until last year. And these horses were not in the best condition and on top of that 5 were kill in 1 month because they were hit by cars. I'm not saying absolutely every horse is treated horribly but I just don't like the idea of horses walking through heavy traffic…that was my biggest issue. I donto even riding my horses on the roads because I've seen too many careless drivers
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did You know that not even trail riders can can match the safety record of the N.Y.C. carriage company`s? The true goal of the radical animal rights activist is to take away Your right to own and ride Your horse. They really dont care about horses.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

mildot said:


> You mean like "it's OK to yank repeatedly on a horse's mouth"?


Actually, no, I kept that discussion to the thread that was actually ABOUT it. But I see you are not able to do that.:wink:


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Theissyhunterjumper said:


> Said I know what you guys are all saying and I do agree with most of what was said and i guess ive changed some aspects of my mind but i still dont think NYC is the place for_ any_ horse. In *my* opinion


Why are you the one that gets to decide where a horse belongs? It's not your horse.


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

I read all 8 pages and I have a few questions. First, the few who signed this carp, why did you feel you had to sign it? What was your reasoning? Have you actually driven and worked with a carriage horse? Have you seen their stable and how they are kept? Do you have any clue as to what it takes to train a carriage horse? 

I have done public drives with my team of Percheron mares, a few weddings, and a parade. The time and effort to ensure those animals are safe and calm is time consuming and takes a long time to accomplish but you won't find a better driving animal. Many times those drivers are knowledgeable, they watch where they are going, what they are doing, how to maneuver and get around to safely keep themselves and that animal safe. Doesn't mean that things don't happen, it can and often times it is some idiot in a vehicle. 

I have had people say how cruel I am to make my poor draft horses pull a wagon with people in it, that is so heavy! PLEASE! Those draft horses LOVE to work, they love to have a job and do it willingly. Many will shove their head into their collar, eyes bright waiting for that word to get to work, it isn't something they don't want to to or are forced to do. Driving a carriage or any other horse drawn vehicle is a dying art, something that takes skill and experience, yet some of you want to take that away from us. 

THIS is why many of us drive, to bring joy and a bit of history to the general public. I would suggest to those of you who think it is so bad, don't judge many of us by a few bad apples. If you want to do that, then maybe it would be okay to you if I say your ignorant due to your age and inexperience? Would that be fair to do? My friend Sue's son Travis. 


















And also, don't judge what goes on in your town by what others do somewhere else. There is ignorance where ever you go, my town, yours, New York, your going to have issues everywhere.


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## TheBarnRules (Apr 17, 2012)

*What about FACTS?*

What does Ms. Handler base her opinion on? Have she been the stables? Have she talked to the drivers? Does she know that not one NYC carriage horse driver has ever been cited for abuse or neglect of their horse(s)? Does she know that in the last 30 - that's THIRTY - years, three horses have died in traffic accidents, and seven others died while on duty from either natural or unknown causes? Can any other equestrian discipline match that? Mine, eventing, sure can't - not trying to minimize the death of any horse, but those are remarkable numbers.

I really wish that people that support a ban on carriage horses, particularly celebrities, would do some independent research and visit the stables before jumping on this ill-conceived bandwagon. 

The New York City carriage horses are some of the most regulated animals in this country. The fact there has never been a citation for mistreatment or cruelty, even with an awful lot of folks looking for it (including the ASPCA which supports a ban), speaks volumes.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

Oh good Lord! Why can't the people making these documentaries put as much time and money into helping said animals as they do stirring s**t up? Oh wait never mind, THAT wouldn't get their name on tv or get them noticed, so it wouldn't be worth it. PETA=pain enters the a** and IMHO that's all it means. Seems like anytime I see PETA anymore that's all they are doing is bending someone over, AGAIN.


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## TheBarnRules (Apr 17, 2012)

*How many of you have actually been in their stables?*

How many of you actually know anything about the NYC carriage horses, other than what you've read on the internet, and how many of you have actually been in the stables?

Before you start suggesting changes to the law regarding NYC carriage horses, I suggest you read what the law actually is – you can find it under the Administrative Code of the City of New York, Title 20 Consumer Affairs , Chapter 2 Licenses , Subchapter 21 Sight-Seeing Buses, Horse-Drawn Cabs And Drivers; Rules of the City of New York, Title 6 Department of Consumer Affairs, Chapter 2 Licenses , Subchapter U Sightseeing Buses, Horsedrawn Cabs and Drivers; Rules of the City Of New York, Title 24 Department of Health and Mental Hygiene, Chapter 4 Health, Safety and Well-Being of Rental Horses; and Administrative Code of the City of New York, Title 17 Health , Chapter 3 Licenses and Permits , Subchapter 3 Rental Horse Licensing and Protection Law.


I've been in Clinton Park Stables - it is clean, open, airy, and well-ventilated, stalls well-bedded, plenty of hay, custom mix grain, automatic waterers, sprinklers in case of, God forbid, a fire, misters and fans. And, yes, the stalls are much bigger than you’ve been led to believe – the size is mandated by law and the horses can, in fact, lie down in them. I saw plenty doing so. The horses were all in good weight and condition – bright eyed, engaged and engaging. We saw the stable hands moving the carriages by hand, by themselves. We walked up and down the ramp and saw horses do the same. When on their daily routes, the horses have access to water, grain, and carrots.

BTW – I am not a carriage driver. I had heard about this controversy and went to New York to see for myself what was going on. If I thought for one second that these horses were not being kept in anything but great conditions I would not spend so much of my time defending them. I suggest that before you start telling someone else how to best keep their horses, that you actually understand, as in actual research, what is truly going on.


One more thing to keep in mind – the folks behind this don’t give a rat’s *** about horses. This is all about two things, 1) very valuable real estate and 2) the radical animal rights activists wish to end ALL human-animal bonds. They mean to do away with ALL uses of all animals – no therapy dogs, no riding horses, certainly no livestock. Don’t believe me? Do your own research and you will see for yourself.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

IF they get this accomplished where are they going stop? Your backyard? Your barn? Your riding stable?
There are hundreds of thousands of horses stalled and kept on very little turnout and working way harder jobs than these carriage horses. What makes you think they won't figure out a way to go after yours?


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

personally.. if you think THESE horses are working hard? you should see what it was like for horses pulling and plowing, and doing all the tending to big fields, how hard they have to work. horses should be worked like that. most horses live for work. and i think a horse should work to earn its keep. i see nothing wrong with any of this what so ever. i mean heck, YOU could die in traffic, therefore you should never visit new york. or maybe no city at all.. actually wait you shouldn't walk, because then you could trip and kill your self, or maybe no swimming either you could drowned. if people are going to be so wrapped up in ways they could die how would anyone get along now. no wonder people die all the time. its like a conspiracy or something..


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

BlueIce said:


> I feel sorry for the animals that they could have saved in the future from genuine hardships,​


​


You really believe this?? Make no mistake, PETA's only goal is for nobody anywhere ever to own, eat or otherwise enslave an animal as they see it. They would rather your beloved pets be euthanized than for you to enslave them. Any animal they "save", as you put it, would find itself dead within hours. These people are so over the top and misguided, it's scary. They pull the wool other people's eyes and manage to scam money out of their pockets only to turn around and use it to push legislation banning anything to do with animals. They make me sick. 

If people truly want to help animals, donate on a local level. National chapters of any organization spend the bulk of you hard earned cash on legislation, most of it being very misguided.


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