# Pulling correctly.



## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

You use your whip and voice to get them to move up under them self. If the load is too heavy that might be causing her trouble. Half halts are used when driving also. If she is having that much trouble cantering she may benefit from some chiropractic care.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

I was actually thinking about a chiro. She needed re-adjusted back when she was two so she could easily need it again. Having as steep of a croup and as straight of a back as she does, I'm sure that its harder for her to pull than it is for our others. Money for me is super tight right now but I'm sure I can figure something out to get a chiro to her in the next few months. Thanks for the suggestion.

I doubt I'm asking her to pull to much, but you never know. She's about 230 pounds (maybe a bit more, she's a little pudgy right now) and she's pulling an easy entry aluminum miniature horse cart, with me as her driver, and I barely weigh 90 lbs. When I first started out my trainer (who has since moved, sadly) drove her to get her started and she was nearer to 150 lbs though. Sound like too much? Her harness fits correctly as far as I know.


So how would I use my whip and voice? I would assume that with my whip, I would be giving her a light tap forewards but not giving her any extra rein to move out, so that she moves up into the bridle and starts pushing. Maybe give her a brief half halt just to 'gather' her back up as well? Or is that wrong? I honestly have no clue about how I would use my voice though. She knows her verbal commands beautifully so maybe theres another one I should be adding into her vocabulary that I don't know about? Right now she knows walk, trot, canter (just on the lunge for canter, but like I said, she's having issues with that and always had so I really only taught her enough that she recognizes the word), left, right, woah, back (rarely used except on the ground), easy (slow down the gait she's at) and 'hup' to speed up within that gait.

Almost forgot, I'm also doing some large figure eights and serpentines with her in our arena, but thats a bit hard to do since the arena isn't very large. Are those ok to be doing (I was hoping it would help her balance and shift her weight back) or should I be holding off on that? I dont know if I'm doing more harm that good o.o

Here's a picture of her conformation to reference what I was talking about. The picture is before I owned her, so please pardon the horrifying feet. Her feet look much better now and correct hoof angles has helped the straightness of her legs thankfully.










And cantering: maybe she looks sore in the picture? She's very short strided at a canter, but that may just be from her confo. She has a pretty decent trot.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Endiku said:


> I was actually thinking about a chiro. She needed re-adjusted back when she was two so she could easily need it again. Having as steep of a croup and as straight of a back as she does, I'm sure that its harder for her to pull than it is for our others. Money for me is super tight right now but I'm sure I can figure something out to get a chiro to her in the next few months. Thanks for the suggestion.
> 
> I doubt I'm asking her to pull to much, but you never know. She's about 230 pounds (maybe a bit more, she's a little pudgy right now) and she's pulling an easy entry aluminum miniature horse cart, with me as her driver, and I barely weigh 90 lbs. When I first started out my trainer (who has since moved, sadly) drove her to get her started and she was nearer to 150 lbs though. Sound like too much? Her harness fits correctly as far as I know.
> 
> ...


Niether of you weigh to much unless the ground isn't firm then pulling is harder on soft ground. I help a friend with her mini and is seems to be hard for them to step up under themself and it is much harder when they have a big belly.
So being trimmer will help. Hers also had a professional message and he moved much freer after that. 
I hate typing so this is going to be the short version.You should practice at a walk half halting on the outside rein when the inside back leg comes off the ground. This will help to step under to the midline and pressing with the whip (not tapping but press and hold on the back strap) to step longer. If the rein is too tight they can't step longer and that will cause a short stride.

You can do this driving or walking behind. To get a nice free walk she will need some rein but do not through her away you need to soften and follow her forward. If she speeds up say easy and maybe pull back slightly if needed.
You kind of work them like an accordian. She will need to follow the bit to understand how to stretch forward. I could help more with pictures or video of her being worked to see what is actually going on. I also would not have her loose with blinders. She can't see to the side and could easily bump into something and then she may lose her confidence and you will have new issues.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Thanks for the fast replies.

Our ground is firm but can be a bit rocky. She has nice, firm feet though and hasn't ever gone lame on it. I don't drive when its muddy or wet outside, and I keep the cart wheels aired properly to reduce strain. Yeah...we're trying to get her trimmed up a bit xD after just coming off of nursing she's got a bit of a pot belly going on (no worms, she just had a fecal, and good hay so I don't know whats up with that) but I think its just from lack of muscle. I'm hoping that as I increase her work load she'll be able to suck her belly up better, drop a few pounds, and over all look better. That first picture of her that I posted though, is her about 8 months pregnant so she's actually not quite that 'big' around.

I'll try the exercises you mentioned at a walk while ground driving her first, then go to the cart. Thanks. I'm assuming I'd do the same with a trot once she improves at a walk? Its going to be hard to time things perfectly though, for sure xD her strides are so small and fast that catching her inside back leg right as its lifting off won't be easy, but I'm sure I'll manage. Should I let her pick her speed at first (within the gait, not which gait she wants to do) or should I pick it for her?

As of right now I dont have a camera or video camera so unfortunately I can't get either of those for you, but hopefully once I do have one I can link some.

Yeah...I thought about those blinders AFTER the fact. Heh. One of my dumber moments for sure, not sure what I was thinking. I usually just lunge her in a headstall with the same bit but I'd put that on for a photoshoot xD silly me. Glad she didnt hurt herself!


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Endiku said:


> Thanks for the fast replies.
> 
> Our ground is firm but can be a bit rocky. She has nice, firm feet though and hasn't ever gone lame on it. I don't drive when its muddy or wet outside, and I keep the cart wheels aired properly to reduce strain. Yeah...we're trying to get her trimmed up a bit xD after just coming off of nursing she's got a bit of a pot belly going on (no worms, she just had a fecal, and good hay so I don't know whats up with that) but I think its just from lack of muscle. I'm hoping that as I increase her work load she'll be able to suck her belly up better, drop a few pounds, and over all look better. That first picture of her that I posted though, is her about 8 months pregnant so she's actually not quite that 'big' around.
> 
> ...


 Yes you do the same at the trot. I would strive for her stepping into her footprint at a walk. There isn't any reason for her to walk slower or shorter strided than that. And aim for an over step when you ask for it and transition back down to the rear hoof stepping into the front print. Expect her to take some time to understand and be strong enough as it will be harder to do if she isn't used to it. Once she strides longer it will be easier to watch as it won't be so quick. Don't over do the half halts and wait until she is warmed up also.

If you are using an over check or side check I would not as you are trying to change her frame.


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## michaelvanessa (Apr 25, 2012)

*verble commands*

hiya you both need to step back a little as your lungeing she might find it a little hard going on soft ground but she should enguage her self more.
when you lunge her in her bridle do you buckle the lunge line on the left then pass it over her head and back through the bit and to you and you have moor controle.
it also sounds like she is not collected as well.
all ways rember your wip is your lower leg so you can apply contact to get her going.
comformation she looks ok tammy was simmalar she was boxy to and stanley is the same as well aloth he is settleing down and is enjoying his work.
going back to lunging how old is she as it sounds like a balance problem which it will sort its self out.
going back to lunging talk to her ask her to walk out a 20 meter (60 foot) circle on a lunge line is more than than enough for a mini as the weight of the rein will be to much and that could hold her back as well.
you can use your harness to lunge in as well the left hand rein passes through the pad and goes round her hind quaters and the rein on the inside comes to you so that keeps her going on the circle and you can ground drive lunge like that.
the other thing is to reward her what you put in is what you get out i usealey give an apple cut in four as a reward and thay soon learn.
rember make your verble commands clear woah walk trot and if she is troting fast half halt her gentley and ask her to work on slowing the trot right down so she is joging and enguageing her hind quaters work her like that and she should improve and eventualy lengthen her stride.
when you drive her does her head and neck come up and does she slightley hollow her back.
i could make a film of me and tricky but i dont know how to get it on here so it would give you an idear and on how to deal with situations as i can borrow an arena here and it will show you a lot of tips as well.
just be pacent and it will all fall into place and there is no need for an over check work on her lunging inforce with the wip just make it crack thats enougth to get them going and talk to her and after she has gone well for you reward her and do 30 minuit schooling secions dont over do it.
when you think she is going ok put her to and drive her and make observations.
have you a camra to take a film of you driveing so you can see how she is going.
also is her hind foot falls falling were her fore foot falls are going so you can tell how she is enguageing her self.
im sorry that your trainers gone but youll be your horses trainer from now on it will save you $, think posative and watch and observe what she is doing and youll teach other. 
i hope this helps michael, im sorry im here or i could help you out and sort out your problems.


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## michaelvanessa (Apr 25, 2012)

*foot falls*

if you have a camra that can take 40 pictures you can analise frame by frame of her in canter to give your self a better idear on how she is doing i have a fuji film camra that i can take 40 shots of a horse in motion so you can see clearley how she is doing in the comfort of your own home.


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## michaelvanessa (Apr 25, 2012)

*comformation*

its posable that her hocks are makeing her stand upright but im just looking at one picture whilst she is resting so i have looked at sevrel picture of my own so i could be wroung there as i think thats were the problem is in canter her hinds are not enguageing enouth to make her collected but you said she goes well in trot how does her hind legs inguage in that gate.
and how are the foot falls as well i think with working her and lungeing her you can over come the problems.
you say your harness is ok is it a breast collar and have you a swimgle tree and is the collar rubbing and is it low enough as not to pipe her its a few check points to look at.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

You guys are being so very helpful. Thank you.
Just to clarify, I do not use an overcheck, side check, side reins, or anything similar, and I never have. I believe that a horse's frame carries through, starting at the butt and traveling up into its head. Its just a matter of getting her to that point that is the problem xD
Stepping into her footprints. That sounds like a great way to measure how well she's using herself. As of right now, I'm not sure that she's even doing that at a free walk, much less at a trot. She seems to have a rather weak hind end so I'll definitely talk a step back and do quite a bit of lunge work and ground driving with her before we try any of them in the cart.
Yes, I usually attach the lungeline to the outer buckle, over her poll, and through the bit on the inside when I lunge her, though there have been times when I was lazy and just clipped it to the inside bit. Not a good idea since it weighed down her mouth on one side and made her lean in too far. I also have tried lunging her harnessed and having her lines attached to the saddle. Lunge to the left walk-trot, then when I ask for a turn instead of spinning on her haunches asking her to make a small trot circle and loop around ground-driving to lunge to the right around me. Figure eights and back into circles as well. Somedays she is balanced enough to do it, some days she isn't. :/
Michael- yes, sometimes her head comes up but she usually hollows her back first then her neck and head naturally rise up. When she's using herself she does much better. I've found that ground driving her over calvettis and ground poles helps her pay attention better and lift her back. Is that a good exercise to be using?
Also you asked how old she is. She's a coming five year old, so 4 years and 10 months. She'll be 5 in April. She's always been badly balanced but she has improved some. I would have thought by now though that she'd be able to use herself a bit better. I guess thats where I come in though xD 
She drives in a single tree saddle, breast collar, breeching, and her blinder bridle. I think they fit but I could be incorrect...I've readjusted multiple times. The breast collar sits straight across above her point of shoulder but below her neck, her saddle is right behind the withers and sits perpendicular to the breast collar, and the breaching sits above her loins , pretty much following a single line with the breast collar. The breaching is a tad bit big for her but we have flat land so I didnt bother to buy a new one. 
　








　
These are some bad examples since she was in her driving bridle (again, dumb idea >.> I'll definitely make sure she's in an open bridle next time) and these are kids who don't know how to lunge so she's responding to their mixed signals by turning around or slowing sometimes, but its the only real footage I have of her. This was about 7 months ago when she first went into cart. Pardon my blabbering at the kids. 
I cant get them to embed, sorry. Just click.
http://s1117.photobucket.com/albums/k592/asylumescapee95/?action=view&current=NEWADDITION066.mp4
 
http://s1117.photobucket.com/albums/k592/asylumescapee95/?action=view&current=NEWADDITION058.mp4
 
trotting photo, same day as that canter picture.








ground driving at a walk. This isn't me, its a friend who wanted to try ground driving, so the reins are being held quite correctly but hopefully you get the idea.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

When ground driving it is very important to have the reins through the tugs and not up high through the terrets at this point in training


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

I wouldn't worry about cavelleti's at this point. It takes strength to do those and you should do it minimally and I think people do it several times not knowing any better. 
If you are lunging I assume you have the whip with you in the center? Bigger circles and control of the whip of the person lunging is needed to get her to step up more.


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## michaelvanessa (Apr 25, 2012)

*footage*

hiya and many thanks for your footage she is at her foot falls and she is not doing bad but she is falling in the circle.
lunge her 10 times in each direction to keep her levled up and talk to her and also dont for get to reward her and she will axcept her work willingley.
my asumption is that she is just green and needs bringing on and educating and i think youll have a super little mare.
did you say she was in foal ?.
my frends have just got a four year old apalosa and she is the same on the lunge by the sounds of it she is green as well and needs bringing on.
i have not seen her on the lunge my self but we chatted about her.
and your little mare eventurley you can ask her to extend her stride dont be afraid to push her with your voice keep asking her to trot on and hopefully her stride will increase.
if you have a lunge wip make it crack it will drive her on.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

You know, I actualy didnt realize that! Thanks. I'll make sure to put it through the tugs when I work her tomorrow. Is there a specific reason for that?

Yes, I have a lunge whip that I use. I didn't give it to the kids though because I knew they'd just make a big mess of it and I didnt want them to startle her.

Normally she doesn't fall into the circle (unless I clip the line to only one side. My fault) but I think those children were completely confusing the poor dear xD I'll make sure she does 10 laps of each, and believe me, she gets lots of incentives! Usually after a workout I slip her a few pieces of chopped up baby carrot, after she releases her bit nicely for me.

Yes, she was in foal both in the free lunging pictures and in those ground driving photos. It wasn't my idea and I defintely did not agree with breeding her, but she wasn't mine at the time unfortunately :/ so all of those pictures are fairly old. The newest is probably the free lunging photos, 7-8 months ago. She had a filly back on 9-11-12 who was just weaned last week so she's going back into work now. I owner her now though, and she will not be bred again if I can help her. Her filly has locking stifles...more proof that she shouldnt have been bred.


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## michaelvanessa (Apr 25, 2012)

*locking stifles hocks ect*

i thought there might be a problem by looking at the photo and many thanks for replying.
and thats good news that the foal has been weened off of her and i think her belly will go down over time to so as long as she is happy she should work well i think you should lower your hands a little bit as well and keep us in the loop as to how she is going ok.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Sure thing! I'm hoping it will tone out too. Its never been so big in the winter before but being that she's getting good hay (a bit of alfalfa and jiggs costal) and has no worms, I wouldn't think I have too much to worry about.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Endiku said:


> You know, I actualy didnt realize that! Thanks. I'll make sure to put it through the tugs when I work her tomorrow. Is there a specific reason for that?
> .


Yes it helps keep your horse in front of you and going forward.
Keeps the horse from being able to spin around and face you, or try and escape.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

LOL, that would have been _so_ helpful back when we were learning that it was ok to be in front of me... we did a LOT of giving to pressure before she finally realized what I was trying to do. Thankfully she's way past that stage now and doesn't evade contact or spin. I actually found her to be more willing to accept contact with the reins in the tugs though today, which was great. It seems like she warmed up faster too. We did just about 5 minutes of ground driving today, mostly lunging and working on s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g into the walk on the lunge and keeping cadence at the trot. I think she did well once she realized what I was asking her. Thank you so much guys, for all of your explanations and help. As much as I'd love to have a trainer right now, my trainer moved away and all of the trainers I've interviewed/gone to watch while looking for a new one have been worthless IMO. One lady that I went to watch was even working a *three year old* miniature in blinders, a pelham bit, side reins on the tightest hole, and an overcheck in a round pen at a speedy trot and canter. This miniature was for 'show' so I have no idea why she was overchecked >.> and she wasn't even the worst trainer I talked to! So right now...I'm better off doing things myself and asking questions. I'd really rather not have my horse be ruined.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Endiku said:


> LOL, that would have been _so_ helpful back when we were learning that it was ok to be in front of me... we did a LOT of giving to pressure before she finally realized what I was trying to do. Thankfully she's way past that stage now and doesn't evade contact or spin. I actually found her to be more willing to accept contact with the reins in the tugs though today, which was great. It seems like she warmed up faster too. We did just about 5 minutes of ground driving today, mostly lunging and working on s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g into the walk on the lunge and keeping cadence at the trot. I think she did well once she realized what I was asking her. Thank you so much guys, for all of your explanations and help. As much as I'd love to have a trainer right now, my trainer moved away and all of the trainers I've interviewed/gone to watch while looking for a new one have been worthless IMO. One lady that I went to watch was even working a *three year old* miniature in blinders, a pelham bit, side reins on the tightest hole, and an overcheck in a round pen at a speedy trot and canter. This miniature was for 'show' so I have no idea why she was overchecked >.> and she wasn't even the worst trainer I talked to! So right now...I'm better off doing things myself and asking questions. I'd really rather not have my horse be ruined.


 Lots of warm up. I do not do any trotting until I have done 15-20 minutes of walking. When you asked about the reins not being in the terrets. They need to learn long and low 1st and the reins being lower encourage that.
Then down and round.
Then forward and up and on.
I just read that today and liked it.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

I did 15 minutes of walking (10 times in each direction and two figure eights) then five minutes of trotting, 10 more minutes of walking, then tacked up to ground drive and ground drove her for about 5 minutes at a walk, just working on stretching out just like on the lunge so she didnt think it was a lunge-only exercise.

Long and low, down around round, forwards and up and on is a great way to think of the steps to training. Thanks so much for sharing that. We'll definitely be taking a few steps back with all of this and to lots of refining before progressing again in the cart.

 I was really hoping to drive her this year in our parade (February 23rd) and have been preparing for months. Do you think its an ok idea to do that? I know she's still fairly green but she has never tried to spook or move out faster than I ask her to under cart, even when around cantering horses that are making a fuss and children, and she's pretty solid when it comes to ignoring loud sounds/distractions and listening to me, but I definitely wouldn't want to overwhelm her. She has a super solid halt as well. 

What do you think? And if I can't drive her, what do you think of ground driving her in just her saddle and driving bridle (would that look to weird to onlookers? haha) with a halter on underneath and maybe a leadrope with me just in case I need to lead her?

If I did drive her, she'd have a halter on underneath and I'd have a leadrope in case someone needed to lead her or hold her if she got jittery, and if absolutely needbe we could unharness her and load the cart (its super light) into our hay wagon that will be in the parade as well, or switch her out with our steady-eddy shetland gelding so that he could pull and she could walk. He's been in dozens of parades and spooks at nothing. I'd also be sure to wear gloves/a helmet of course, since this would be her first outing under cart.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Endiku said:


> I did 15 minutes of walking (10 times in each direction and two figure eights) then five minutes of trotting, 10 more minutes of walking, then tacked up to ground drive and ground drove her for about 5 minutes at a walk, just working on stretching out just like on the lunge so she didnt think it was a lunge-only exercise.
> 
> Long and low, down around round, forwards and up and on is a great way to think of the steps to training. Thanks so much for sharing that. We'll definitely be taking a few steps back with all of this and to lots of refining before progressing again in the cart.
> 
> ...


 Has she been off property being driven? If she is quiet at home that can change when they are nervous in different surroundings. If she hasn't been exposed much driving away at strange places I wouldn't do the parade.
I think ground driving is a good compromise to get her some exposure but not have her hitched in case something goes wrong. Leading a hooked horse is not that easy. I saw 6 men holding a scared large pony and they couldn't hold it when it took off.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

She has been lead on three different trails off of the property, ground driven and cart driven on someone else's (trainers) property, and shown in a small in hand show for a showmanship class. So she's only be carted off the property once, but has been off the property more times than that. 

Does that sound like enough, or am I still taking too big of a chance? Like I said, I REALLY want to drive her, but her safety is most important. I can also talk to my BO about it and see what she thinks. And as I said, we do have the option of unharnessing her and loading it up if we have to. We've had to do it before when a tire popped two years ago. Its not ideal but we made it work xD

I think the parade is 3/4-1 mile long and pretty low key. There are some fire trucks and stuff that make quite a bit of noise but we always make sure to be far away from them, because we let some of our disabled children come and they're very sensative to sounds. I think the toughest part for her would be the long wait in line before we actually start. It usually takes 30-40 minutes of stop and go before we get to where we're walking at a steady pace. I'll have an area available to me to warm her up and let her get out and jitters beforehand though, which is nice. There is a big grassy field where everyone usually warms up their horses if they get there in time.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Endiku said:


> She has been lead on three different trails off of the property, ground driven and cart driven on someone else's (trainers) property, and shown in a small in hand show for a showmanship class. So she's only be carted off the property once, but has been off the property more times than that.
> 
> Does that sound like enough, or am I still taking too big of a chance? Like I said, I REALLY want to drive her, but her safety is most important. I can also talk to my BO about it and see what she thinks. And as I said, we do have the option of unharnessing her and loading it up if we have to. We've had to do it before when a tire popped two years ago. Its not ideal but we made it work xD
> 
> I think the parade is 3/4-1 mile long and pretty low key. There are some fire trucks and stuff that make quite a bit of noise but we always make sure to be far away from them, because we let some of our disabled children come and they're very sensative to sounds. I think the toughest part for her would be the long wait in line before we actually start. It usually takes 30-40 minutes of stop and go before we get to where we're walking at a steady pace. I'll have an area available to me to warm her up and let her get out and jitters beforehand though, which is nice. There is a big grassy field where everyone usually warms up their horses if they get there in time.


 I really can't give an opinion as I don't know the horse but I am sure some go with out any experience and do fine while others with more experience can get into trouble. So your guess is as good as anyones. If in warm up she wasn't really calm I would stop then.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Good idea to have a walker with you. I never went to a parade without one.
Don't forget your whip, always carry it with you.

Here is Sam and I in a parade my walker has a lead rope and is never farther away than a long reach. I also went with two side walkers to keep kids from running towards the horse to get candy.

Good luck!


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Taffy Clayton said:


> Good idea to have a walker with you. I never went to a parade without one.
> Don't forget your whip, always carry it with you.
> 
> Here is Sam and I in a parade my walker has a lead rope and is never farther away than a long reach. I also went with two side walkers to keep kids from running towards the horse to get candy.
> ...


 showoff lol


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## michaelvanessa (Apr 25, 2012)

*tc turnout*

showing me thoes pictures ill selabrate with a bottle of bud with you and sam cheers for the loveley pictures your turnout is awesome.
many thanks for shareing them michael tricky and quincey.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Thats a good idea. Bring her and be ready to drive, but if she won't calm down by the time we line up, just untack her and hand walk her or ground drive her. I'll make sure to ask my BO today as well since she has knows Sour since the beginning...back when she still deserved her name. LOL

Taffy Clayton- Wow, now Sam is some real horse eye-candy right there! You guys look phenominal. Yep, I'll absolutely have sidewalkers with me. My BO and BO's husband (riding lesson instructor/manager) always walk and would right by me, and if it wasn't too much weight (not sure about that?) I can actually even have one of our other adults who used to drive sit in the passenger seat with me in case something goes wrong. I'm thinking that would be too much weight to ask her to carry though...it would be 220-230 lbs. Thats what Sour weighs so she's be pulling her weight o.o


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

For her first parade I, myself, would have only person in the cart, just to make it as easy and less stress for her.
there will be other parades for passengers.

You need one person to take photos!!!!!


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Haha, I do! Its just a matter of finding someone who will...I'm camera-less xD

BO made a great compromise with me though. We're going to bring her over to where the horses will be starting the parade on Wednesday just to walk around and maybe do a bit of lunging/ground driving in the grass and go home, and if she does well with that she'll go with us as a 'buddy horse' to the rodeo grounds Friday afternoon and spend the day at the trailer with a bag of hay, watching all of the commotion. I can also walk her around a bit to see everything. If she passes both of those 'tests' we have the go-ahead to drive her in the parade. Hoping she does well!


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