# STALLION. What do you think of this boy!? APHA



## rippleranch (Jan 8, 2011)

So I inquired this boy a couple months ago and have been up in the air on what I should do with him....geld him.... or keep him as a stallion. We are experienced horse owners and he would be our first stallion. I have also worked on a breeding farm (30 bred a season) so have the experience and we have the facility and know how for breeding. Just looking for other opinion on him and a critique, be as harsh as you want  Ill attach pictures that I have but will make sure to get some better. (don't mind the picture with his foot in the bucket, Daughter thought she would be funny! :lol:

Bobby is a 15yr old, 15hh and 1300# Buckskin Tobiano. He is double registered APHA and PtHA. He is Nominated to multiple Futurities also. He is a fabulous Brick of gold color with huge beautiful dapples. Bobby has produced 99% color on all mares to date and 99% buckskin and grullo colors. He passes on and sweet mellow personality to all his foals. His foals are winning in the show rings too! This boy has great performance and Halter horse bloodlines. Bobby is a great riding horse that excels in the cow work, he is a great trail horse too. 
This stallion really is an unbelievable boy, with his sweet mellow lovable personality any one can handle him! He can be pastured with babies, geldings, share fence lines with mares or pastured with bred mares in the winter and you would never know he is a stallion. He is Very sweet, gentle and romantic when it comes to breeding time (pasture or hand bred). Check out his breeding:

Wildcat Bobby Luck Paint

So what do you think :wink: If you would like to see pictures of his foal just ask!



























He has his back legs under him in his pic, its just the way he is standing








In this pic he is standing a bit up hill


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

First of all, I am going to assume that you have tested him for frame, or have seen the results if someone else tested him. Not saying that you haven't, or implying that at all. Just assuming, since you know what you are doing, that he is neg.

Is the text about him written by you or his previous owner? I don't want to get too nit picky, but it is kind of false advertising to say that he throws grullo. Since he is buckskin, the grullo obviously came from the dam, not the sire, as grullo is a dun horse with a black base coat. Also, it is false advertising to claim that he has produced 99% colour - to be able to say this, he should have 100 foals on the ground, of which only one was a solid non dilute. Ok, sorry, just a pet peeve of mine. 

On to the horse. I see him being slightly sickle hocked in some photos, and more so in others. He has a nice, short back, which I like. He also has a decent slope to his shoulder.

Personally, I think he is nothing spectacular, and therefore I would cut him. It is my opinion that breeders should be breeding to improve the breed, not to produce more horses. While he is a nice looking horse, fairly well put together and sound and sane, there are literally hundreds, if not thousands of stallions out there in this breed that meet those qualifications. You would have to pick mares very carefully to ensure that his offspring are better than him, and those mare's owners would probably rather breed to a stallion who is closer to perfect. 

Just wanted to add, imagine he had hair "down there" he would have a white tip on a dark winkie... just something to laugh about lol


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## rippleranch (Jan 8, 2011)

Chillaa,

He has been tested for frame/owl ect. He was negative. 

Text is written by me with what I have been told and what I know. Thanks for the throwing grullo feedback, you are right it would come from the Dam, I need to reword it. And for the 100 foals on the ground, he does for a mater of fact  He has 117 foals! The people I got him from owned him his whole life and kept a portfolio. The one horse that wasn't colour or buckskin/grullo was a solid bay filly (bred to a bay Dutch Warmblood). 

hahaha...on the down there joke... thanks for the feedback!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

It is still only a 50% chance of him passing on a cream gene. It's like a coin toss - just because you have tossed 100 heads in a row doesn't mean the next one has a higher chance of being heads.

Anyway, I will drop it. It is a pet peeve of mine, and I don't mean to ride your back on it lol.


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## rippleranch (Jan 8, 2011)

I understand you. 
I was just pretty much saying he has "sired" 99% colour and 99%Buckskin/Grullo, well because thats the truth. 
All said, Ill have to post pictures of some of his foals.


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## spanish2speaker (Dec 23, 2010)

pretty horse!!!!!


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## rippleranch (Jan 8, 2011)

*Some of his foals!!*

































































I have so many more... I was hoping to get most of his fancy ones on here but the pics are to big. But all these foals are still beautiful!


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

his foals are gorgeous and so is he!


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## spanish2speaker (Dec 23, 2010)

omg!!!!! sooooo cute!!!!!!! i luv the pictures!!!! my fave is the last one!!!!!!!


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## A knack for horses (Jun 17, 2010)

I say, "keep" him. But I'm a bit of a sucker for buckskins. 

Conformation: His conformation looks nice from the pictures you gave us (Although you can't really judge conformation without a squared up side shot).

Color: Hes a buckskin. And nicely marked.

Temperment: You say he has a wonderful personality. And I'll trust you on that judgement.

Record: Does he have a show record? If he is winning at the disiplines he is showing in, then that is a great plus for keeping him a stud.

Foals: They are beautiful. If they have the temperment and ability (if not better) than Bobbys, I'd keep his boy parts.

Lovely horse! And welcome to the horse forum!!


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

If people are still wanting his foals and willing to pay to breed to him then why geld him? If he is not in demand then I would geld him.


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

You haven't said if he has any training. IMO all stallions should have a job (I'm not sticky about whether they show, but I want to see the horse has a purpose beyond making babies). If you're prepared to do something other than just breed him, people are willing to pay a reasonable stud fee, and his foals are selling for reasonable prices, he's easy to have around, then there is no reason to geld him. 

If you should keep him a stallion, I will say this - make sure any photos of him that you put on the internet are his best. I've read a number of comments made towards "new" breeders about the fact that every photo you put up is "marketing" for him - so to try to keep shots to those really "wow" inspiring ones. Show him off at his best, it'll pay off for you. (It's amazing how many people sound like they will steer away from websites which show stallions caught in awkward stances, poor camera angles, badly ridden etc... but it's a good thing to keep in mind)

I can't give you a really honest opinion of HIS conformation - because none of the photos you've posted are terrific for that purpose. I like most of his offspring which are shown well. With a stallion, I think, it's especially important that the conformation shots you "put out there" (even here) show him in the best. Take the time to halter him, tidy him up a bit, square him up and make sure there's no angle to the shot... doing just that much will at least give him a chance to show what he's really made like... better yet is to band his mane, have him shiny and clean. The conformation shots are going to be what sell your horse's stud fees, especially if you don't show him. Performance is usually looked at after someone has decided they like the conformation. (Not always though... some go at it the other way around)


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## OneFastHorse (Jan 13, 2011)

I agree with Chiilaa.

He is a very nice looking animal, but there is nothing extraordinary about him. There are so many "nice" stallions out there and IMO they all need gelded. Extraordinary should be bred to extraordinary for an extraordinary foal (and even then that sometimes produces a "dud"). 

I'm not that impressed with any of his babies. Dont get me wrong, they are super cute, but most of them have some obvious faults such as the 1st one you posted: has a pretty upright shoulder and is over at the knee. It's nothing major, but they are still flaws none-the-less. IMHO, unless you are going to show and promote this stallion to his full potential then he should be a gelding and it is kind of hard to show and promote a stallion that is 15 and has no real training and/or talent. Yes, he may be great on trails, you may be able to rope off him, he may be able to track a steer, but he has no show record and no one has taken the time to promote him.

And to address the "people are still paying to breed to him and for his foals" comment... that may very well be true, but these days ppl will pay for ANYTHING. If someone said they would pay you to jump off a bridge, would you? Of course not =)

He is a nice stallion, but he would make a great gelding. =)


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## Gizmo (Dec 19, 2010)

Hubba hubba. In my eyes he is awesome. Stocky a nicely built. With a great color and a personality to match. Plus you said he is good at several things. Wish Gizmo was a mare, haha. But if you are getting the demand for him keep him a Stallion. I don't see any point in actually gelding him at this point anyways. You don't have to keep breeding him if you do not want to. You just have to keep him separate, which I'm sure you do already. And the fact that he is throwing nice looking foals with proven color and temperament and they are winning ribbons that is a plus.


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## Streakin (Jan 8, 2011)

Im not a fan of his foals or his confo. Hes OK...but to be a stud he just be above "just ok".

The golden rule of breeding is to breed the best to the best in hopes of producing offspring that will surpass their sire/dam. IMO, thats not this stallion


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## Gizmo (Dec 19, 2010)

Well personally I can't stop checking him out. I love his butt. And his gorgeous dapples. I'm a sucker for dapples. If he mysteriously goes missing he is definitely not in New Hampshire with me


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## Streakin (Jan 8, 2011)

Pretty color doesnt negate poor conformation.


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## Gizmo (Dec 19, 2010)

I didn't say that I just said I like his dapples. And I think he has good conformation.


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Not meaning to sound rude at all... but there's not much of a chance of actually telling what his conformation is like - good or bad, based on the photos in this thread. 

The thing about judging conformation from a photo is that you need to account for the fact that the lens (unless of a super super high quality camera and pro photographer) will often distort the subject unless the angle is pretty near perfect. 

Not a single one of the OP's shots show the horse square to the camera - so really all we can "see" is that he's a "pretty" colored horse with no serious glaringly obvious flaws. 

That said, I too find him pretty "average", color aside (I like buckskins... but there's a lot more than color to make a good horse). There's nothing that says to me that he should definitely NOT be bred ( a good conformation shot might alter that opinion - to either side) - and obviously we can't stop his owner from breeding him. Honest opinion though - APHA registers somewhere around 30,000 foals every year... for that reason a APHA stallion would need to have much more than OK conformation for me to say "breed him"... so I'd still really like to know what THIS stallion has done, other than be lucky enough to be born a pretty color and possess a gentle nature, that warrants reproducing.


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## xan2303 (Jul 14, 2010)

omg amazingly cute!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how much for a foal..... if its 2 much ill have to go steal one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Gizmo (Dec 19, 2010)

xan2303 said:


> omg amazingly cute!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how much for a foal..... if its 2 much ill have to go steal one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Not before I steal one! lol. I really want a foal, have been looking for one recently, but I think these babies are ones that the mare's owner kept not the OP. But I could be wrong.


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## Cheshire (Oct 17, 2009)

Not a fan of his back end. Not sure if it's an awkward stance thing or what, but something is off about his hip and hind legs. Could you please supply us with a shot of him standing square to the camera? 

Otherwise, judging on these photos...I see a stud who is average, albeit a pretty colour, who throws pretty coloured babies, most of whom are average...from what I can tell. Have any gone on to have successful show careers?


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

On the "99%" argument. I'm no math major, but you can have 99% of 50, or 75, or 33. It's 99% out of 100%, and the 100% can be any number. =]

He's sure handsome. I more or less agree with churumbeque. If better conformation shots can prove he's built correctly, and people are willing to pay his stud fee, I don't see a problem keeping him at stud. So long as he's correct, an paired with a mare of correctness, he will likely produce marketable babies that can and probably will sell.


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## horseluver50 (Mar 19, 2009)

^^ You are right about the 99% out of 100%. But that doesn't work for horses. 99% of 33 would be 32.67 foals.
99% of 50 would be 49.5 foals.
99% of 75 would be 74.25 foals.

That's not quite possible.. unless the last foals were missing a leg or head or something 
But, if you rounded the numbers down, it would work.. so I'm not sure about that


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

That just means the math is wrong, and you would change the percent to make it work. I cannot do it, I am terrible at math, but it can be rounded, or you can throw a decimal in the percent. I just wanted to point out that the percent of something is not out of 100, but 100%.


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## horseluver50 (Mar 19, 2009)

Yeah that is very true. That's the same thing I thought when the person said it had to be out of 100.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

I won't judge his conformation because of lack of correct pictures, but I will say he has a nice stocky build.

His foals seem to have long backs, but they look well-put together other than that. On this one, a few more foals out of him with a nicely paired mare aren't going to hurt the breed. If he has a good temperament, serviceable conformation, a purpose, and he's in demand, it's up to you to cut or keep.


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## HorseOfCourse (Jul 20, 2009)

If he doesn't act studly, wouldn't it possibly do more damage to geld him since he's 15? I could be wrong. I think that having a stallion doesn't necessarily mean breeding.

Anyways, at his age I'd keep him in tact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OneFastHorse (Jan 13, 2011)

HorseOfCourse said:


> If he doesn't act studly, wouldn't it possibly do more damage to geld him since he's 15? I could be wrong. I think that having a stallion doesn't necessarily mean breeding.
> 
> Anyways, at his age I'd keep him in tact.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How in the world would it hurt him? It would make it easier on him and the owners b/c he could go out with an horse, wouldnt have to worry about breeding season coming up and how he nmight act. Just b.c a stallion is very well mannered and doesnt act studdy doesnt mean they wont have a freak moment where they hurt someone or another horse. Stallions should NEVER be trusted.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

OneFastHorse said:


> Stallions should NEVER be trusted.


 Amen! I've met some pretty calm stallions, even owned one, but I wouldn't trust any of them just b/c they can't control their istincts.


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## HorseOfCourse (Jul 20, 2009)

Since older stallions' testicles are more developed, the procedure requires a larger incision. Some people even opt to send them to an equine hospital for this reason and the reason of infection. Also, some never adjust to living with other horses. Another thing is that sometimes they will still attempt to breed with mares, which isn't that big of a problem, but still. Another thing is that since their used to acting studdish around mares, some still do. I've also heard that there's more of a risk of them being proud cut, but I'm not sure on that.
And as it's been said, it's their instincts. They aren't just going to poof and be gone after he's been cut at an old age.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

I've heard of complications as the horse gets older, too.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

HOC brings up an excellent point. Whether he is cut or not, his attitude an manners likely won't change. He just can't get someone pregnant.


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## OneFastHorse (Jan 13, 2011)

riccil0ve said:


> HOC brings up an excellent point. Whether he is cut or not, his attitude an manners likely won't change. He just can't get someone pregnant.


I respectfully disagree. 

I have had hands on experience with a few older horses being gelded (8yrs +) and there were no problems health wise. All 4 of those horses went on to be amazing geldings who are living the gelding life well. None of them act like stallions, and all are ridden/turned out with mares.


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## Amba1027 (Jun 26, 2009)

Just like with people, the older the horse gets, the more dangerous ANY surgery will be. So just because an 8 or 10 or 12 year old came out of it ok, doesn't mean a 15 year old will be fine.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I agree, the older the horse the more risks are involved. 

It also comes down to individuals about not being studly or not. It could be a matter of days or months.. you just don't know.


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## GreyRay (Jun 15, 2010)

OneFastHorse said:


> How in the world would it hurt him? It would make it easier on him and the owners b/c he could go out with an horse, wouldnt have to worry about breeding season coming up and how he nmight act. Just b.c a stallion is very well mannered and doesnt act studdy doesnt mean they wont have a freak moment where they hurt someone or another horse. Stallions should NEVER be trusted.


You should NEVER trust a stallion? WOW! That is completely rediculous. I trust all our horses just fine. I trust them to act EXACTLY like WHO they are and are handled appropriately for everyones safety based on that. If you have a dead broke mare that anyone can hop on and go, but that mare likes to kill smaller animals, does that mean you should NEVER trust her? NO. That mean you know better than to put a goat in her pen! It is the same for ALL other horses, and other animals in general.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ilovemyPhillip (Apr 4, 2009)

GreyRay said:


> You should NEVER trust a stallion? WOW! That is completely rediculous. I trust all our horses just fine. I trust them to act EXACTLY like WHO they are and are handled appropriately for everyones safety based on that. If you have a dead broke mare that anyone can hop on and go, but that mare likes to kill smaller animals, does that mean you should NEVER trust her? NO. That mean you know better than to put a goat in her pen! It is the same for ALL other horses, and other animals in general.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, have to step in here. COMPLETELY agree with this post.

I think he's a fine looking animal, and to leave him intact for health reasons, and since you favor him yourself - personal reasons.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

I don't trust stallions. That's just me. In any relationship with a horse there has to be a certain amount of trust, but stallions are unpredictable, no matter their training. They can be the sweetest horse on trail or at liberty, but when a mare enters the show ring they could go berzerk. Not their fault, just their hormones.


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## horse mad99 (Jan 8, 2011)

their all beauties


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I get what Equiniphile is saying, but I extend it to all horses. At the end of the day, they are creatures with their own free will, and even the most dead broke old gelding can be dangerous in some circumstances. I love horses, and I do trust them, but not with my life.


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## HopalongCassidy (Dec 19, 2010)

Well if you do keep him tacked witch i hope you do and if you ever going to breed him in the future maybe 2 or 3 years i'll get a mare to breed him. Or buy a baby. He's a hottie! Love dapples and the buckskin, WOW! I'm not the clever one on horses or STALLIONS! But i bet if you keep him tacked and breed him and if his foal comes out colored or even solid take the foal to the show ring. Was your stallion showed?


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## DunOverIt (Dec 14, 2010)

equiniphile said:


> I don't trust stallions. That's just me. In any relationship with a horse there has to be a certain amount of trust, but stallions are unpredictable, no matter their training. They can be the sweetest horse on trail or at liberty, but when a mare enters the show ring they could go berzerk. Not their fault, just their hormones.


I agree with some of this. They certainly need to be watched much more vigilantly than a gelding or a mare. They have more "off days" it seems.

Certainly it's a lot easier to (even accidently) give them an inch, and they'll take a mile. Their training can not be given much slack and they are much easier to modify, behavior and reaction wise, than others. 

You can't take many chances with them. I knew one at a barn that others boarded at. The girls would run their mares by him and get a hoot over his behavior, and his owner was ultimately the one who payed for it. Of course, I wouldn't board a stud at such an open facility. But that's just me.


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## Gizmo (Dec 19, 2010)

GreyRay said:


> You should NEVER trust a stallion? WOW! That is completely rediculous. I trust all our horses just fine. I trust them to act EXACTLY like WHO they are and are handled appropriately for everyones safety based on that. If you have a dead broke mare that anyone can hop on and go, but that mare likes to kill smaller animals, does that mean you should NEVER trust her? NO. That mean you know better than to put a goat in her pen! It is the same for ALL other horses, and other animals in general.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I agree with this. I think it is a little prejudice to judge ALL stallions too. Has anyone ever seen Ivory Pal? That horse is a Stallion and uses no bit when riding and he is so... calm and great. Then there are some stallions that are crazy. You just have to know the horse and work with it that way.


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## sandhillsgage (Jan 16, 2011)

WOW they are all past Gorgeous!!!


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## OneFastHorse (Jan 13, 2011)

I'm not judging anything. I'm speaking from experience. Stallions have testicles, which means that they have crazy hormones and instinct CAN take over, no matter how well they are trained.


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## Streakin (Jan 8, 2011)

OneFastHorse said:


> I'm not judging anything. I'm speaking from experience. Stallions have testicles, which means that they have crazy hormones and instinct CAN take over, no matter how well they are trained.


 Agreed.

Would you all feel the same about him as a stud if he was just a plain ol' sorrel?


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

OneFastHorse said:


> I'm not judging anything. I'm speaking from experience. Stallions have testicles, which means that they have crazy hormones and instinct CAN take over, no matter how well they are trained.


And mares have an uterus and ovaries - they can be equally dangerous and unpredictable during their heat cycle. Just saying.

There are more risks to gelding later - we've done it though. At the end of the day it depends, entirely, on how you can keep the stallion. If he's safe to go out with geldings - and you're prepared to let him, then fine.... otherwise geld him so he can "be a horse". 

We have two stallions currently, and one stud colt. They all live just fine with other horses, and I trust each one of them - just as far as I'll trust any horse. The two stallions live together (and have for years - they've lived with other geldings too)... the colt is currently living with one of my geldings - and will hopefully later join the "big boys". They all have large pastures (5 acress + for 2-3 horses) and they are very sane and "non studdy" horses. I've had other trainers comment on this, and I put it down, 100% to the fact that my stallions are horses first, and stallions second.

Some of the 'worst' wrecks I've seen have been older, solidly trained, geldings or mares - where someone got a little too lax in a situation that needed more attention. It's not even that the horses were "bad" - just simply that the human part of the equation wasn't doing their part to keep everyone safe. 


I do agree that just because a horse is a stallion doesn't mean it will be bred - but, I also feel (strongly) that to keep a horse a stallion and NOT breed it means you have to make sure that he has a quality of life that allows him the freedom to live and behave like a horse. If the only "stallion safe" facility you have for him means a stall and small paddock, and total isolation... I think gelding is really kinder. 
I just felt compelled to share my view!


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## DunOverIt (Dec 14, 2010)

TheLastUnicorn said:


> I do agree that just because a horse is a stallion doesn't mean it will be bred - but, I also feel (strongly) that to keep a horse a stallion and NOT breed it means you have to make sure that he has a quality of life that allows him the freedom to live and behave like a horse. If the only "stallion safe" facility you have for him means a stall and small paddock, and total isolation... I think gelding is really kinder.
> I just felt compelled to share my view!


AMEN!!! We keep ours out 24/7. And though we breed few mares, the two foals a year we produce, he gets to live with a preggo mare for the entire year. He always has a friend. It makes him even better on trails and at shows. He's just fantastic because he's happy. 

I still feel they need more precautionary maintenance than geldings and mares. And sometimes I feel like that's more like defensive driving (avoiding the actions of other riders) than the horse.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

OneFastHorse said:


> I'm not judging anything. I'm speaking from experience. Stallions have testicles, which means that they have crazy hormones and instinct CAN take over, no matter how well they are trained.


You're speaking from experience with four horses. I've dealt with four evil ponies. That doesn't mean I'm going to go around spouting that you can't trust ponies. Four is a very small number in the grand scheme of things. Just because I know of four horses that have successfully gone through colic surgery doesn't mean diddily. It means that that particular horse was a success.

I've known more crazy mares than I've known crazy stallions. And at 15, this horse has learned the behavior, whether you cut the testosterone or not, he has still learned the behavior that he cannot and will not "unlearn" with the loss of his jewels. Gelding is not a miracle cure for studly horses.


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## Gizmo (Dec 19, 2010)

TheLastUnicorn said:


> And mares have an uterus and ovaries - they can be equally dangerous and unpredictable during their heat cycle. Just saying.


Completely agree. I was going to say this earlier but I was having a dumb day and couldn't remember the names of my lady parts! lol.


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## OneFastHorse (Jan 13, 2011)

If you arent going to breed the horse, WHY would you keep it a stallion? Talk about hormonal abuse.


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## JavaLover (Nov 7, 2009)

OneFastHorse said:


> If you arent going to breed the horse, WHY would you keep it a stallion? Talk about hormonal abuse.



I don't really understand how that's hormonal abuse at all.. All male horses were stallions before humans found ways to geld them.. isn't that a little worse? lol.


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## OneFastHorse (Jan 13, 2011)

JavaLover said:


> I don't really understand how that's hormonal abuse at all.. All male horses were stallions before humans found ways to geld them.. isn't that a little worse? lol.


But in the wild they did what their instinct told them to do....breed. IMO, keeping a horse a stallion and never letting him breed will make him far more miserable than gelding him and letting him be a normal horse.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

OFH, he may never actually be able to BE a "normal" horse after gelding though. At 15, his mating behavior is learned. I believe the OP said he was pasture bred. So throwing him out with mares and he can still likely try to mount them, act up, etc, and can still become aggressive.

It's also my understanding that an older stud will have a lowered libido than from when he was younger, am I correct? I thought I had read the somewhere. That the body will gradually produce less of said hormones?

At any rate, one could say the same thing about mares. Mares are rarely spayed, yet the still go into heat cycles, or "hormonal abuse" periodically. And that's just the way it is. Keeping him a stud and not breeding him is no worse than having a mare... period.


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## OneFastHorse (Jan 13, 2011)

Mares arent spayed b/c of the cost and the risks. If spaying a mare was as easy and cost effective as gelding a stallion, I would spay mares. I am mare person. I prefer them over any other sex. If you have a mare that is THAT mareish, then there are alternatives to spaying them such as regumate.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

OneFastHorse said:


> Mares arent spayed b/c of the cost and the risks. If spaying a mare was as easy and cost effective as gelding a stallion, I would spay mares. I am mare person. I prefer them over any other sex. If you have a mare that is THAT mareish, then there are alternatives to spaying them such as regumate.


I am trying to find a nice way to voice my opinion - here it goes. It seems to be awfully manipulative and controlling to want to de-sex or try to control a horses hormone levels. I don't think that hormones are the root of all evil in horses, bigger problems come from poor training. I don't believe there will be any harm in leaving a fifteen year old stallion intact even if he is no longer going to be bred infact I think it is the safer option. As he gets older his libido will get lower and lower anyway. I have a mare and I am happy for her to have her normal cycle (actually I don't even think about it), we have two stallions within fairly close proximity of where my mare lives. When she first came to me she got all hot and bothered by the boys but three years on and she completely ignores them. The only time we come close to having a problem is when we ride past one of the boys when Phoenix is in full cycle. She squirts and flirts and he charges up and down the fence. Ironically enough EXACTLY the same thing happens when we ride past my neighbors gelding. Its not the hormones that are the problem its how we deal with them.


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## Gizmo (Dec 19, 2010)

kiwigirl said:


> I am trying to find a nice way to voice my opinion - here it goes. It seems to be awfully manipulative and controlling to want to de-sex or try to control a horses hormone levels. I don't think that hormones are the root of all evil in horses, bigger problems come from poor training. I don't believe there will be any harm in leaving a fifteen year old stallion intact even if he is no longer going to be bred infact I think it is the safer option. As he gets older his libido will get lower and lower anyway. I have a mare and I am happy for her to have her normal cycle (actually I don't even think about it), we have two stallions within fairly close proximity of where my mare lives. When she first came to me she got all hot and bothered by the boys but three years on and she completely ignores them. The only time we come close to having a problem is when we ride past one of the boys when Phoenix is in full cycle. She squirts and flirts and he charges up and down the fence. Ironically enough EXACTLY the same thing happens when we ride past my neighbors gelding. Its not the hormones that are the problem its how we deal with them.


I really agree with every word that you say. I believe he would be fine to leave as a stallion especially at his age anyways. And they said they have a big enough facility to keep him that way, so why not? I don't think it should be messed it. If he is fine the way he is he is fine. "Why fix what aint broke?"


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## rippleranch (Jan 8, 2011)

Wow all!! Ive been away for a bit, Guess I have some reading to do. Ill get back to you all with answers ect when I skim through all 6 pages of this thread


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## Streakin (Jan 8, 2011)

He just doesnt "wow" me...and he really doesnt have anything to offer in his pedigree....I wouldnt breed a mare to him.


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## Cowgirl140ty (Jan 7, 2010)

TheLastUnicorn said:


> And mares have an uterus and ovaries - they can be equally dangerous and unpredictable during their heat cycle. Just saying.
> 
> There are more risks to gelding later - we've done it though. At the end of the day it depends, entirely, on how you can keep the stallion. If he's safe to go out with geldings - and you're prepared to let him, then fine.... otherwise geld him so he can "be a horse".
> 
> ...


^^^I couldnt agree more.
I dont own any studs... but I work with 4 different ones. And have been around many others.
The 4 I work with... no one ever believes they are studs. we have even had people dismount and look to see if we are serious. They never drop down or neigh or squirm when they are around mares... especially under saddle. To me it all comes down to training. Just like with a mare in season. All these studs are pasture bred. Any time they are being handled by a person, they KNOW it is work, not fun time. 

As for the stud.... someone asked if we would feel the same if he was a sorrel (and I dont like sorrel horses)... but judging from the pictures posted... I would feel the same if he was a sorrel. 
And I think he is a very well put together horse. He is built to work and move. But like many have said... it would be better to have squared up pictures. But unless there are massive flaws hiding in these pictures... Id say keep him a stud... if your intentions are breeding. I really like the way he is put together. In fact.. I would love to ride him on cows. I bet he'd be awesome.


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## Streakin (Jan 8, 2011)

Cowgirl140ty said:


> ^^^I couldnt agree more.
> I dont own any studs... but I work with 4 different ones. And have been around many others.
> The 4 I work with... no one ever believes they are studs. we have even had people dismount and look to see if we are serious. They never drop down or neigh or squirm when they are around mares... especially under saddle. To me it all comes down to training. Just like with a mare in season. All these studs are pasture bred. Any time they are being handled by a person, they KNOW it is work, not fun time.
> 
> ...


That was me.

Studs should offer 1 0f 3 things..preferably all:
1.Above par conformation
2.Great bloodlines
3.show record

Does this horse have any of these things? 

The horse market is in shambles. IMO we dont need any more mediocre studs out there producing. Leave that to the studs with the bloodlines, confo, and show records.


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## Cowgirl140ty (Jan 7, 2010)

Without Confo shots its hard to tell. But I really dont see any problems with his confo. But I cant really crituque with those shots. 
As for the bloodlines. I can be honest and say that those bloodlines mean nothing to me... But I know nothing of Paint bloodlines. I deal with Appaloosas and Quarter horses. But I I was goin to breed to him... I would take the time and do research on them. 
And as for the show record... it was not mentioned. So it could be because he hasnt been shown.. or the OP just didnt mention it. If he doenst have a show record... I would look into what his offspring has done. 

The baby (goin on 3) I have now... when I bred for him... I researched for a year to pick the sire. And I ended up goin with a Stallion who has never been anything but. But what his babies had gone on to do was simply amazing. And i have gotten so many comments on the build of him and his tempermant.


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## OneFastHorse (Jan 13, 2011)

Streakin said:


> That was me.
> 
> Studs should offer 1 0f 3 things..preferably all:
> 1.Above par conformation
> ...


I agree 100%

There are lots of stallions out there with stellar conformation, extraordinary bloodlines and thousands of dollars in earnings. THOSE are the ones who deserve to be left in tact, not the stallion in the OP. Dont get me wrong, he is a very cute boy! But, my opinion to to geld him. A decent stallion will make an awesome gelding.


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## Streakin (Jan 8, 2011)

Cowgirl140ty said:


> Without Confo shots its hard to tell. But I really dont see any problems with his confo. But I cant really crituque with those shots.
> As for the bloodlines. I can be honest and say that those bloodlines mean nothing to me... But I know nothing of Paint bloodlines. I deal with Appaloosas and Quarter horses. But I I was goin to breed to him... I would take the time and do research on them.
> And as for the show record... it was not mentioned. So it could be because he hasnt been shown.. or the OP just didnt mention it. If he doenst have a show record... I would look into what his offspring has done.
> 
> The baby (goin on 3) I have now... when I bred for him... I researched for a year to pick the sire. And I ended up goin with a Stallion who has never been anything but. But what his babies had gone on to do was simply amazing. And i have gotten so many comments on the build of him and his tempermant.


 True...to really be able to properly analize his confo we do need better pictures BUT Ive seen enough to know his confo is nothing special. 


Id breed to a well conformed stallion with proven bloodlines, even if he hadnt been shown much. Id choose a well conformed stud with proven bloodlines AND a show record 1st though.


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## Cowgirl140ty (Jan 7, 2010)

Streakin said:


> True...to really be able to properly analize his confo we do need better pictures BUT Ive seen enough to know his confo is nothing special.
> 
> 
> Id breed to a well conformed stallion with proven bloodlines, even if he hadnt been shown much. Id choose a well conformed stud with proven bloodlines AND a show record 1st though.


But... if proper confo shots were shown and he has no obvious flaws... I dont see what would be wrong keeping him a stud. 
Not saying he should be bred to any and every mare. But the truth is... people are goin to breed less then perfect horses. As there is no such thing as a perfect horse. I think any decent stud has its place, IF the owner is selective about the mares he breeds to. And the mare owners actually do the research. Not just "Oh... he's pretty. And look I even have enough for his stud fee."
But I also think if a horse is goin to be left a stud and has less then well known lines (like I said.. I have no idea on his... but in general), He should have one hell of a show record to back him up. OR his babies should.


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## Streakin (Jan 8, 2011)

I dont care for his pasterns...or his croup/hocks/stifles. Better pictures could help with judging his hind.

Im just voicing my opinion on this matter, but fact is, we dont need mediocre studs out there producing. Dont even get my started on breeding grade horses. Oy.

His babies are nothing special either IMO


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## Gizmo (Dec 19, 2010)

Streakin said:


> That was me.
> 
> Studs should offer 1 0f 3 things..preferably all:
> 1.Above par conformation
> ...


If those were the only studs out there, no one would be able to own a horse because they would all have stellar bloodlines and be amazingly pricey. Some people don't want to show or do showy type things with horses. Some people just want a good trail horse or a great cow horse to work their ranch or a sweet tempered therapeutic horse. That is assinign(sp?) to think that every stallion out there should have all these things and more. Not to mention in your book there probably shouldn't be any wild mustangs or anything out there either because they are from wonderfully amazing bloodlines or haven't done anything "great" in their lives.


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## Cowgirl140ty (Jan 7, 2010)

Streakin said:


> I dont care for his pasterns...or his croup/hocks/stifles. Better pictures could help with judging his hind.
> 
> Im just voicing my opinion on this matter, but fact is, we dont need mediocre studs out there producing. Dont even get my started on breeding grade horses. Oy.
> 
> His babies are nothing special either IMO


I couldnt agree more about breeding unregistered horses. I wont even own an unregistered horse. (except my mini). 
And I to was just posting my opionion. But it was nice to have a debate I guess you could call it without getting nasty. I wont juge his confo without confo shots. Just a peeve of mine. I just glanced for any glaring faults. None of which I saw.


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## Streakin (Jan 8, 2011)

Gizmo said:


> If those were the only studs out there, no one would be able to own a horse because they would all have stellar bloodlines and be amazingly pricey. Some people don't want to show or do showy type things with horses. Some people just want a good trail horse or a great cow horse to work their ranch or a sweet tempered therapeutic horse. That is assinign(sp?) to think that every stallion out there should have all these things and more. *Not to mention in your book there probably shouldn't be any wild mustangs or anything out there either because they are from wonderfully amazing bloodlines or haven't done anything "great" in their lives*.


 Oh please...you know me so well:lol::wink:

Good working bloodlines arent pricey 


Cowgirl140ty said:


> I couldnt agree more about breeding unregistered horses. I wont even own an unregistered horse. (except my mini).
> And I to was just posting my opionion. But it was nice to have a debate I guess you could call it without getting nasty. I wont juge his confo without confo shots. Just a peeve of mine. I just glanced for any glaring faults. None of which I saw.


 Agreed. Having two different point of views on a subject and being able to CALMLY discuss points of view is something I enjoy.

That why I usually say "In my opinion", unless I know something is factual.


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## OneFastHorse (Jan 13, 2011)

Gizmo said:


> If those were the only studs out there, no one would be able to own a horse because they would all have stellar bloodlines and be amazingly pricey. Some people don't want to show or do showy type things with horses. Some people just want a good trail horse or a great cow horse to work their ranch or a sweet tempered therapeutic horse.


Then they should go buy a trail horse that meets their needs, not breed for one. If you cannot afford a stud fee, then how are you going to afford proper vet care of a pregnant mare? How would you afford the vet bill if something should go wrong? Any breeding can result in death of the mare and/or foal. Are you ok with losing your mare? The breeding fee is the cheapest part of breeding a horse. There are stellar stallions out there with affordable breeding fees as low as $700-$1,500. Why breed and have to sink more money into vet care, feeding, etc of the pregnant mare when you can go buy a decent trail horse for $500 in this economy? Breeding less than stellar animals is not going to help the current horse economy at all. 




Gizmo said:


> That is assinign(sp?) to think that every stallion out there should have all these things and more. Not to mention in your book there probably shouldn't be any wild mustangs or anything out there either because they are from wonderfully amazing bloodlines or haven't done anything "great" in their lives.


Youre darn right Mustangs shouldnt be bred! Look at what is going on in todays horse economy and the way the mustang is treated! They round them up in a less than heathy manner, hold them in holding pens for who knows how long and sale them. WHY breed more when we cant even ensure the others will be homed.


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## Amba1027 (Jun 26, 2009)

Gizmo said:


> If those were the only studs out there, no one would be able to own a horse because they would all have stellar bloodlines and be amazingly pricey. Some people don't want to show or do showy type things with horses. Some people just want a good trail horse or a great cow horse to work their ranch or a sweet tempered therapeutic horse. That is assinign(sp?) to think that every stallion out there should have all these things and more. Not to mention in your book there probably shouldn't be any wild mustangs or anything out there either because they are from wonderfully amazing bloodlines or haven't done anything "great" in their lives.


I actually had a thread about this a while ago I believe. I was thinking the same as you, that if all horses were bred with such high standards, most people wouldn't be able to afford them. The way things are right now, the horses that come from fantastic bloodlines and amazing show records, with near-perfect confromation, are the super expensive horses (although in this economy you can find cheaper ones). Anyway, I asked people why they thought all horses should be bred that way since they are so expensive. The overall opinion was that, if fantastic horses were the norm, they wouldn't be so expensive. It's like diamonds, they are only so expensive because they are rare. If ever single fake diamond on the planet were actually real, no way they would cost what they do now.


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## OneFastHorse (Jan 13, 2011)

Amba1027 said:


> I actually had a thread about this a while ago I believe. I was thinking the same as you, that if all horses were bred with such high standards, most people wouldn't be able to afford them. The way things are right now, the horses that come from fantastic bloodlines and amazing show records, with near-perfect confromation, are the super expensive horses (although in this economy you can find cheaper ones). Anyway, I asked people why they thought all horses should be bred that way since they are so expensive. The overall opinion was that, if fantastic horses were the norm, they wouldn't be so expensive. It's like diamonds, they are only so expensive because they are rare. If ever single fake diamond on the planet were actually real, no way they would cost what they do now.


Also, a good breeder/trainer will do what they can to work with you in order to get their horses into a show home where they can go on to make their own names in the horse industry.


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## DunOverIt (Dec 14, 2010)

OneFastHorse said:


> Also, a good breeder/trainer will do what they can to work with you in order to get their horses into a show home where they can go on to make their own names in the horse industry.


We did this. We sent one to WI to work with his new owner under a top rider in the US. We already had a steady client who uses our horses, (and show records here in FL) but wanted more. It was the best way to do it.


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## OneFastHorse (Jan 13, 2011)

DunOverIt said:


> We did this. We sent one to WI to work with his new owner under a top rider in the US. We already had a steady client who uses our horses, (and show records here in FL) but wanted more. It was the best way to do it.


Guess you are in the "good breeder" category then huh?  *yay* 

Unfortunatly, there are more bad breeders out there than good. But, its up to ppl to make the horse economy better. By breeding mediocre or average horses, you are just continuing to kill the horse industry. 

Plus, it's cheaper to just buy exactly what you want rather than try to breed it.

ETA: I made payments on my bay horse as a yearling. Why? B/c I already had one of the breeders horses and I went on to train him (he was a 1D horse) and place him in a show home. The girl loves him and is doing great with him. The breeder saw this and actually came to me about purchasing my bay horse. I said I didnt have the funds and she said I'll drop the price to X and you can make payments. I did and later she was shipped from GA to me in PA. best decision I ever made to buy that filly.... and sight unseen b/c I knew the breeders well and I know they take immaculate care of their animals. The did what they feld necessary to find their filly a show home, even if it meant lowering the price a little and taking payments for months.


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## DunOverIt (Dec 14, 2010)

OneFastHorse said:


> Guess you are in the "good breeder" category then huh?  *yay*
> 
> Unfortunatly, there are more bad breeders out there than good. But, its up to ppl to make the horse economy better. By breeding mediocre or average horses, you are just continuing to kill the horse industry.
> 
> Plus, it's cheaper to just buy exactly what you want rather than try to breed it.


Yeah, we only produce 3 a year if we breed at all.. 

And we actually held onto the first two and trained them up and they sold in a high market, but after the 3 year mark of course not for profit. 

The third oldest is in cutting training with a big trainer in south florida, and the 4th oldest is the one in WI. 

The foals from 2010....we lost one in a freak accident as a weanling. The other is with a pro-roper. 

We really do it because we love the lines we produce. And we have a demand and return clients. 

The beauty in taking your time with it is that we finally are at the point where the foals are pretty much spoken for (2011) and they have not hit the ground yet. 

We do show, but it's not our top priority. We spend more time on the rodeo circuit. However, I do understand we need to get out even more and we're going to polish up the broodmare and get them out there at least in IBHA. 

I feel like it's ok if there is a good plan, the ability to keep what you cannot home, and very strict ideas about the kind of home you are willing to give a baby to. 

Obviously we don't breed alot, since we only have a total of 7 on the ground his whole breeding career, and he's 10, and we don't stud him out. But all of our babies are in homes and are STILL in the same home. That is what really matters. 

I don't know if I could handle keeping track of 10 babies a year. And I don't think I'd want to worry over that many.


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## DanceOfTheDead96 (Sep 28, 2010)

I think he's a very nice looking horse. He looks very sturdy. I love his legs & feet, how thick they are. They actually match the rest of him. He looks like a good, strong, working horse.
It is up to you whether you geld him or not. I don't see any physical reason you should geld him, unless he has some genetic mutation/disorder or incurable disease that you haven't told us about... but I'm going to guess he doesn't have any of those .

I personally think people rely to much on a horses pedigree to decide if it's a "good" horse, and if its worthy of breeding. I think a horse should be judged on its own, for what *it* has done, what *it* is, not what its ancestors have done, or were.
I think registeries should be used more like a way to keep track of things like genetic mutations(like HYPP) or to determine if a horse is to closely related to your own to breed them.
I don't know, it's just what I think...

**I'm sorry for the lack of paragraphs, I'm using my phone.**
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ilovemyPhillip (Apr 4, 2009)

I never owned a stallion, but I have goats. They're sort of like horses? In a sense? No not really. But we have one buck you can't go near, or he'll attack you. Especially since he's in rut (breeding season - his hormones are high) - my other buck is fantastic. He's so gentle & loving.. Just not to other goats since he's in rut. 

I would have to say trusting any type of animal, you have to judge them individually.


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## HopalongCassidy (Dec 19, 2010)

Just keep him a stallion but don't breed him. If anyone notice a lot of them good pedigree horses are rode.

A lot of people ride there stallions. I see there having no trouble. Every horse is different. You'll get some that will go crazy when breeding seasons around then you'll get some that might blow off the mares.

The only way to make new good blood line is to start with a stallion and mare, then see what the foals going to do. It's almost like people think it's a crime to make some more horses with a bloodline that's not known, known. Lets make that last sentence easier to read. Some people don't want you to start from scratch. Get a stallions with bloodline thats isn't known and breed him to a mare to get a foal that doesn't have good bloodline. And then the foal does something to make the bloodline known like wins 30 straight races. 

OK like this horse Spikes Special Girl - stallion bred him to Miss USA- mare. 

Why can't i not breed then together, is it because neither have good bloodline so the foal will be bad. What if the foal comes out to be the best race horse? what then. Do i geld him and say well sorry he didn't have good bloodline. Even if he won 30 straight races. Is it not OK to start from scratch and create a new bloodline?


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I like this post a lot! I didn't ever think of it that way!


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## Streakin (Jan 8, 2011)

HopalongCassidy said:


> Just keep him a stallion but don't breed him. If anyone notice a lot of them good pedigree horses are rode.
> 
> A lot of people ride there stallions. I see there having no trouble. Every horse is different. You'll get some that will go crazy when breeding seasons around then you'll get some that might blow off the mares.
> 
> ...


There are cases of that...but still. Those horses atleast had a decent record etc.


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## A knack for horses (Jun 17, 2010)

HopalongCassidy said:


> Just keep him a stallion but don't breed him. If anyone notice a lot of them good pedigree horses are rode.
> 
> A lot of people ride there stallions. I see there having no trouble. Every horse is different. You'll get some that will go crazy when breeding seasons around then you'll get some that might blow off the mares.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with you.

In my personal experience and opinion, pedigree and papers doesn't mean sh*t. You can have a horse papered out the wa-zoo, with EVERY top horse of ancestry in a particular disipline, and you can still get cruddy offspring. ANd you could have a grade born horse, that is the best dang cowhorse this side of the Mississippi.

And besides that, genetic diversity is something that should be considered before hacking the manhood off of an exceedingly exceptional horse without papers. If we only bred the horses with the elite papers, eventually, horses are going to be riddled with diseases arising from imbreeding. Almost every stock breed halter horse has Impressive somewhere in its pedigree.


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## Gizmo (Dec 19, 2010)

A knack for horses said:


> I completely agree with you.
> 
> In my personal experience and opinion, pedigree and papers doesn't mean sh*t. You can have a horse papered out the wa-zoo, with EVERY top horse of ancestry in a particular disipline, and you can still get cruddy offspring. ANd you could have a grade born horse, that is the best dang cowhorse this side of the Mississippi.
> 
> And besides that, genetic diversity is something that should be considered before hacking the manhood off of an exceedingly exceptional horse without papers. If we only bred the horses with the elite papers, eventually, horses are going to be riddled with diseases arising from imbreeding. Almost every stock breed halter horse has Impressive somewhere in its pedigree.


Couldn't agree more with you and *HopalongCassidy.*


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## chvyluvgrl (Jan 16, 2011)

I didn't think that he was anything grand but seeing what he put on the foals makes me take that statement back. Sometimes the sire doesn't have to be stellar to produce great. ya know. I think that sometimes people get so focused on the breed and the look that they loose the horse. Sometimes a horse without great conformation makes a great baby I don't know why but they just do. Great horses!


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## WilliesZipsation (Dec 17, 2010)

Chiilaa said:


> First of all, I am going to assume that you have tested him for frame, or have seen the results if someone else tested him. Not saying that you haven't, or implying that at all. Just assuming, since you know what you are doing, that he is neg.
> 
> Is the text about him written by you or his previous owner? I don't want to get too nit picky, but it is kind of false advertising to say that he throws grullo. Since he is buckskin, the grullo obviously came from the dam, not the sire, as grullo is a dun horse with a black base coat. Also, it is false advertising to claim that he has produced 99% colour - to be able to say this, he should have 100 foals on the ground, of which only one was a solid non dilute. Ok, sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to be rude but I agree, a stallion (in my opinion) should have to have some kind of performance record and be of outstanding conformation, and have great movement. There are way to many 'just ok' horses out there. We don't need any more, I say cut him.
Just my opinion though, this is also a pet peeve of mine.


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## Caitlinpalomino (Nov 16, 2010)

he looks like he passes on good colouring to his foals!!!! they are all beautiful!!!!


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## HopalongCassidy (Dec 19, 2010)

A knack for horses said:


> I completely agree with you.
> 
> In my personal experience and opinion, pedigree and papers doesn't mean sh*t. You can have a horse papered out the wa-zoo, with EVERY top horse of ancestry in a particular disipline, and you can still get cruddy offspring. ANd you could have a grade born horse, that is the best dang cowhorse this side of the Mississippi.
> 
> And besides that, genetic diversity is something that should be considered before hacking the manhood off of an exceedingly exceptional horse without papers. If we only bred the horses with the elite papers, eventually, horses are going to be riddled with diseases arising from imbreeding. Almost every stock breed halter horse has Impressive somewhere in its pedigree.


I agree 100%


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## chvyluvgrl (Jan 16, 2011)

riccil0ve said:


> OFH, he may never actually be able to BE a "normal" horse after gelding though. At 15, his mating behavior is learned. I believe the OP said he was pasture bred. So throwing him out with mares and he can still likely try to mount them, act up, etc, and can still become aggressive.
> 
> It's also my understanding that an older stud will have a lowered libido than from when he was younger, am I correct? I thought I had read the somewhere. That the body will gradually produce less of said hormones?
> 
> At any rate, one could say the same thing about mares. Mares are rarely spayed, yet the still go into heat cycles, or "hormonal abuse" periodically. And that's just the way it is. Keeping him a stud and not breeding him is no worse than having a mare... period.


 
I totally disagree with this statement. We had a gelding who was a stallion until the age of 20 at 22 he was as calm and gentle as any gelding. People wouldn't believe he had been a stallion for 20 years. He was pastured with mares and never mounted them and with geldings without attacking them. He was trail rode for five years with out incident with mares and other geldings. He was awesome. And when we got him he had minimal training other than breeding. He was pasture bred and bred in hand. 

My son takes riding lessons with a lady who has a breeding stallion and she takes him out on rides and I don't think that anyone would even know that he was stallion. He is so well behaved and I have never in many years seen him do anything that would deem him any moe untrusting than mares, or geldings. I think that stallion behavior has to do with training and horsemanship. Hormones don't run the show the trainer or owner does.


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## Streakin (Jan 8, 2011)

This is one of those topics people will never see eye to eye on.

Genetic diversity is a necessity, but I prefer the genes to be from a *quality* horses, not a backyard breeding program. Thats why some TB lines are added to barrel horses.
Breed to improve the breed as a whole. So many people think that "Oh hey hes pretty lets breed him to this pretty mare!".WRONG.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

The stallion above doesn't seem like a backyard breeder.


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## Streakin (Jan 8, 2011)

Ray MacDonald said:


> The stallion above doesn't seem like a backyard breeder.


I never implied that I thought he was.
My opinion is in general


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I agree with you though, I do not like a backyard breeders. Did the person who posted this say they were going to breed him? or just asking if they should geld him?


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

chvyluvgrl said:


> I totally disagree with this statement. We had a gelding who was a stallion until the age of 20 at 22 he was as calm and gentle as any gelding. People wouldn't believe he had been a stallion for 20 years. He was pastured with mares and never mounted them and with geldings without attacking them. He was trail rode for five years with out incident with mares and other geldings. He was awesome. And when we got him he had minimal training other than breeding. He was pasture bred and bred in hand.
> 
> My son takes riding lessons with a lady who has a breeding stallion and she takes him out on rides and I don't think that anyone would even know that he was stallion. He is so well behaved and I have never in many years seen him do anything that would deem him any moe untrusting than mares, or geldings. I think that stallion behavior has to do with training and horsemanship. Hormones don't run the show the trainer or owner does.


I think you will find Chvy that riccil0ve was agreeing with you. The whole point of her post was that hormones mean diddly squat when it comes to horse behaviour and that a stud that has been allowed to behave like a stud won't change that behaviour once gelded.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

kiwigirl said:


> I think you will find Chvy that riccil0ve was agreeing with you. The whole point of her post was that hormones mean diddly squat when it comes to horse behaviour and that a stud that has been allowed to behave like a stud won't change that behaviour once gelded.


Hormones DO impact behavior. Mares in season that are flightly or squat and dribble or kick the snot out of a pasture buddy - hormones. Studs that start calling when a trailer pulls in or out of the yard - hormones.

Older stallions are successfully gelded by our clinic and the University for the rescues on a much too frequent basis. All stallions in a herd that are seized for lack of care, etc are gelded - regardless of age, breeding or ability.

The primary issue is the more developed blood vessels. The hormones do lower once the hormone producing organs are removed.


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## Streakin (Jan 8, 2011)

rippleranch said:


> So I inquired this boy a couple months ago and have been up in the air on what I should do with him....geld him.... or keep him as a stallion. We are experienced horse owners and he would be our first stallion. I have also worked on a breeding farm (30 bred a season) so have the experience and we have the facility and know how for breeding. Just looking for other opinion on him and a critique, be as harsh as you want  Ill attach pictures that I have but will make sure to get some better. (don't mind the picture with his foot in the bucket, Daughter thought she would be funny! :lol:
> 
> Bobby is a 15yr old, 15hh and 1300# Buckskin Tobiano. He is double registered APHA and PtHA. He is Nominated to multiple Futurities also. He is a fabulous Brick of gold color with huge beautiful dapples. Bobby has produced 99% color on all mares to date and 99% buckskin and grullo colors. He passes on and sweet mellow personality to all his foals. His foals are winning in the show rings too! This boy has great performance and Halter horse bloodlines. Bobby is a great riding horse that excels in the cow work, he is a great trail horse too.
> This stallion really is an unbelievable boy, with his sweet mellow lovable personality any one can handle him! He can be pastured with babies, geldings, share fence lines with mares or pastured with bred mares in the winter and you would never know he is a stallion. He is Very sweet, gentle and romantic when it comes to breeding time (pasture or hand bred). Check out his breeding:
> ...





Ray MacDonald said:


> I agree with you though, I do not like a backyard breeders. Did the person who posted this say they were going to breed him? or just asking if they should geld him?


 there ya go


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Thanks! 
So he was used for breeding but they never breed him. And he was nominated? Does that mean he competed? It also sounds like he has good bloodlines but I wouldn't really know.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

mls said:


> Hormones DO impact behavior. Mares in season that are flightly or squat and dribble or kick the snot out of a pasture buddy - hormones. Studs that start calling when a trailer pulls in or out of the yard - hormones.
> 
> Older stallions are successfully gelded by our clinic and the University for the rescues on a much too frequent basis. All stallions in a herd that are seized for lack of care, etc are gelded - regardless of age, breeding or ability.
> 
> The primary issue is the more developed blood vessels. The hormones do lower once the hormone producing organs are removed.


Perhaps my comment was too generalized mls. YES hormones affect some behaviours, squirting, flirting, winking, calling. BUT there is learned behaviour as well, a well trained stallion can be ridden in any situation and are shown in arenas around the world. I am pretty sure that in these show arenas there are mares that are cycling. Due to good training a stallion and an in season mare can be in the same vicinity without chaos and mayhem. An untrained, poorly handled stallion is a menace and a danger to all concerned. BUT you can't compare the two because it is NOT the hormones that are in control it is the training practices, or lack of that determine end results.

I ride a mare and occasionally we end up in the vicinity of a stallion when she is in season. She squirts and winks and keeps walking because that is what she is trained to do. And she never kicks when she is in season, she definitely gets less tolerant of things during that time but she still remains a safe, trustworthy horse. If she was anything less then that would be my fault and a hole in my training of her.

Of course hormones will have a huge effect on horses that have never had that behaviour go unchecked. I'm sorry but I think hormones are completely irrelevant to a horse that has a good solid training foundation. But not all horses have that so you have to take each horse case by case.


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## HopalongCassidy (Dec 19, 2010)

UMMMM, HAY! sorry for getting this thread bumped back up but are you selling him if not i'd take his for sale ad down. 

Beautiful Apha/ptha Tobiano Buckskin Stallion!

LOL never mind i see your selling him. Why you seem to really like him. If i could i would buy him but can't. For one we have no room, and two we need no stud, and three we still have no room. Good luck selling him.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

kiwigirl said:


> BUT you can't compare the two because it is NOT the hormones that are in control it is the training practices, or lack of that determine end results.


Interesting. I ride with a lot of stallions. Most are well behaved and you wouldn't know. However - you don't know how well mannered, trained or handled (best training in the world and be undone in a heartbeat by a poor handler) the horses you are riding with are.

At the ranch I am currently competing at, the owners wife rides their stallion. She is VERY vocal to keep newbies away from her and the horse. The stallion is well behaved but other horses aren't always.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Thanks, kiwigirl, for explaining what I meant. That's exactly what I was saying. If a stud is allowed to act like a fool around mares, he will continue to act like a fool around mares even when gelded. He was learned that that is how to behave around mares. Training VS hormones. 



mls said:


> Interesting. I ride with a lot of stallions. Most are well behaved and you wouldn't know. However - you don't know how well mannered, trained or handled (best training in the world and be undone in a heartbeat by a poor handler) the horses you are riding with are.
> 
> At the ranch I am currently competing at, the owners wife rides their stallion. She is VERY vocal to keep newbies away from her and the horse. The stallion is well behaved but other horses aren't always.


Doesn't that just prove the point? That training trumps hormones? I'm not sure what your point here is.


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