# Tie Downs...Lunging.... and flexing



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Lunging:
- remember your horse knows what you're looking at, and your eyes are a driving force for your horse. Where do you ask the horse to go forward from when you're riding him? You use your legs around the girth/cinch area, right? So keep your eyes on that area of his body and drive him forwards with this. When you look at his face, the "pressure" is on his face, which drives him to stop.
- Keep sending the horse forwards, no matter what. I just taught this 6 year old how to lunge, and it took a LONG time, but eventually she got it. Use your voice - ask the horse to "walk on" and send him forwards with your eyes and body, and whatever else you are using as an extension of the body - lunge whips (used as an extension of your arm, NOT to hit him!) are an excellent tool for a horse that doesn't know how to lunge. 
- You might have to walk beside him to get started... ask him to walk on, and keep driving him forwards while you slowly back off further and further until he's walking around you in a circle. 

It is very confusing for a horse, but you'll get it eventually!! Hope this helps! Feel free to ask about anything you don't understand.. I know my "explanations" are sometimes more confusing than the original question!

Flipping the head up: whenever he flips his head up, drive him forwards, make him work for his mistake. Can you slowly start lengthening the tie down? You might want to think about checking his teeth out as well if you haven't recently, as head-flipping is common in horses that are in pain from the bit sitting improperly in their mouth.


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## ahearn (Jul 10, 2007)

Thanks for your rapid response!! Your explanation about lunging makes perfect sense. 

The tie down...another issue! We have tried to slowly lengthen the tie down. We thought we had the answer to our problem, but after a few short passes slowly realized we didn't.  Now he's getting his head so high it's a little intimidating.(Which I'm sure he can sense as well!)


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

No problem, glad to help! And I'm very glad that I made sense - it doesn't happen too often!

As for the head-flipping (it is flipping, right? not just him having his head in the air?), just push him forwards whenever he does that.. again, make him work for the head-flipping stunt.


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## ahearn (Jul 10, 2007)

Nope...it flips straight up!! We just recently had his teeth done so that's not an issue either. 

I'll try the moving him forward thing and see how that works. I think he's been able to get away with a lot over the years as he is being very pushy and trying to see what he can get away with. He's slowly figuring out that it's not much!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Good!! Let me know how it goes next time you ride!


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Mmmmm......I have a different view on this :lol: 

One, get that tie down off him. My horse was ridden in a tie down for years before I got him and I had SO MANY issues to work out! Tie downs, IMO, give the horse something to brace against, plus it forces a horse to carry his head in a position that he isn't WILLING to do. A tie down is a band aid for a much deeper cause of pain and/or unconfidence. 

So here is what I would do. Make sure you saddle fits. Triple check it! Make sure it's in the correct position, behind the horse's scapula at MAXIMUM extension and make sure your saddle is then shimmed appropriately to make your saddle level. You dont' want it putting pressure on his withers. If your saddle is blocking his shoulder movement that will cause him to hollow his back and stick his head way up in the air. 

Next, I would get a double jointed snaffle bit. I would suggest getting the JP by Korsteel Oval Mouth Copper Loose Ring snaffle. You could also use a KK snaffle. With this snaffle you then want to teach him to reach for the bit. Your horse sounds exactly like my horse used to be. Once I tought him the following exercise he COMPLETELY changed. I do not believe this is a "bad habit" or something he is doing out of snotty behavior, I believe this is a physical issue (might want to get a chiro out), along with saddle fit, and a confidence issue. A horse who is comfortable and confident WILL NOT hollow out like that. 

So once you have the snaffle get on and start this from a halt. Start "combing" the reins through your hands with contact in his mouth. Use a flowing, rhythmic feel and allow the reins to slide easily through your hands. DO NOT block him. If he starts backing up hang with him and even put his butt up against a fence. This is a hand-over-hand motion. What you want him to do is to reach for the bit and stretch down. When he does release the reins completely and rub him. *HERE IS THE KEY......the higher he puts his head up the more drag you put in the reins!* You are insisting that he keep his head lower. What I mean by more drag is that you don't allow the reins to slide as easily through your hands BUT YOU DO NOT PULL ON HIS MOUTH. If you pull, his head will come up. Once he is okay at the halt then go to a walk, and then a trot. DO NOT do this at the canter. Your goal is to have him stretch waaaaaay down. Make sure you don't block him or pull on his mouth! If you are confused by this let me know and I will explain better.

With my horse this changed his body physically. His topline improved dramatically. And the more you do that exercise the more you will see your horse carry himself differently. Even on a loose rein my horse will stretch and carry himself SO MUCH BETTER b/c that exercise teaches a horse to use his body and not be afraid of contact on the bit. He rarely lifts his head real high anymore and if he does I go right back to combing the reins with drag to tell him "Hey, wrong door."

One thing you need to be ready for is the fact that you may lose your back up when doing this exercise. But this is okay! Pick your battles wisely. Once your horse is consistantly relaxed and soft with that exercise then you can move onto shaping his body and asking him to carry himself in an actual frame. And actually you shouldn't have to use your reins to back up :wink: He should go off your seat.

I'm going to disagree with driving him forward when he puts his head up. I dont' believe it's a stunt. I believe it's an unconfidence issue. If anything that might cause him to become more emotional.

One other improtant factor.........your riding. Make sure you are fluid in your body. NO BRACE. Don't jam your heels down, don't hollow your back. Move everything. If you are braced in your body then he will be braced in his body. Be fluid, keep your weight back, not on his forehand.


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## Equina (Jul 28, 2007)

JDI and Spirithorse are both on the right track here. Basically, the tie down has forced your horse to keep his head low. When you remove it, he stops keeping his head low. You want to train him to lift his back, use those back and rear-end muscles! This will naturally cause his head to lower. 

I highly agree with Spirithorse's recommendation to use a double-joined snaffle. Won't allow him any excuses or reasons to try to avoid the bit.

I personally have used JDI's method of encouraging forward movement to get my horse to lower his head. Maybe it's an English-rider thing. :wink: I tried futzing with the reins to resolve the issue, and it worked slightly, but also made him feel very stiff. By encouraging more forward movement, he began to develop those back muscles and it was physically easier for him to carry himself properly. I also did a lot of circling at the trot. It was pretty hard for him to keep his head high while bending.

Try both methods (and maybe others will suggest more) and see what starts to work for your horse.


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## ahearn (Jul 10, 2007)

Thanks Spirit Horse!! That's an interesting take on it. I like it! We follow a lot of Clinton Anderson/ Lyons/ Parelli methods all rolled up into one so this sounds like something similar. I'm going to print it off to really look at and study tomorrow. Great advice!

I like the double jointed snaffle. I've felt like we haven't had him in the right bit. It's just a full cheek snaffle with a single break and rolls on either side. He doesn't take that too well. (That's what him came with) Does anyone have a pic of it? I could always google it though!


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## Equina (Jul 28, 2007)

Oval Mouth
http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp?pn=X1-010066&ss=oval mouth


French Link
http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp?pn=X1-010061


Of course, they all come either loose ring, eggbutt, D-ring, or Full cheek. I personally didn't notice a difference in my horse with the oval mouth vs french link. 

Stay away from Dr Bristol bits though! They can sometimes look sneekily similar to French Links. The center piece is angled differently so it doesn't lie flat with the tongue. 

Dr Bristol
http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp?pn=X1-010188&ss=dr bristol


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Good luck! I will say this, because your horse sounds so much like how my horse used to be, be prepared to do that exercise for a couple months. I know that sounds like a long time but really it isn't. Some horses you can do that with them for a week and they're fine, but with horses like this they have a lot of issues so it takes consistency to teach them, just like with anything else.

One question for you though........are the muscles on the underside of his neck bulgy? Like over developed?


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## ahearn (Jul 10, 2007)

Spirithorse- No, the muscles are not over developed. He is very lean in the neck. I'll see if I can take some pics to show you. Maybe I'm not looking at it right!


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## brittx6x6 (Mar 4, 2007)

I have never had this issue but maybe try using a running martingale until he is used to that and then take that off and his head should be fine. I am just taking a guess I would think that would work maybe try that if nothing else works.. :wink:


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## ahearn (Jul 10, 2007)

OK, here are some pics of his neck...what are you thinking, Spirithorse?



















I just ordered the bit you guys recommended! Cross your fingers. Training starts tomorrow! I know it'll take awhile, but really all I have is time, right? Not like I can just ship him back because I don't like the way his head comes up! :wink:


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Yes, that horse's topline is under-developed, but that's easily fixed with work in the proper frame


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I agree, his topline needs work, but not to fear! That will come with time. I am surprised that the under side of his neck is not over developed, that ususally happens when a horse "pulls" himself along rather than "pushing" himself along. That's how my horse *was*, very over developed on his under line and not so developed on his topline. But not anymore. I guess since you were riding him in a tie down that prevented him from lifting his head, therefore he was forced to "kind of" use his body, although not correctly, so that's probably why the underside of his neck is not over developed.

Cute horse though!! I love his face.


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## ahearn (Jul 10, 2007)

Great! OK, my next dumb question...having just gotten back into horses after a hiatus of about 10 years, what is NOW the best way to acheive a stronger top line....again, I have the time, just tell me what to do!  

Let me tell you what groundwork we've worked on:
-desensitizing
-Yielding hind and fore quarters
-disengaging hindquarters
-MAJOR backing
-flexing to the halter
- Lungeing (to some aspect, he really struggles at this, or maybe I am the cause)

From the saddle:
- one rein stops
- bending
-heavy whoa on loose reins
-SOME impulsion exercises

He does well with them all except lungeing.

I'm hoping I'm on the right track! Times have changed a little since I owned my first horse. Now I own three and loving every minute of it!


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

The exercise I suggested will GREATLY improve his topline. I was amazed how it improved my horse's topline. I would also work him on hills. That's a wonderful way to get him to figure out how to use his body correctly. That also really helped my horse fogure out how to "push" himself along rather than "pull" himself along. Also, work on transitions once you are ready. That's one key to having an uphill horse, and it's fun! It'll keep your horse's mind with you, just as long as you don't turn it into a drill. I love walk-canter, canter-walk transitions......those are the best! lol.

Sounds like you are doing some great things on the ground and on his back! Maybe the lunging is boring for him. If you do lunge him, make it interesting. Use obstacles. Have him go over, under, around and through things. Teach him to go sideways. Use your imagination.


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## ahearn (Jul 10, 2007)

OK, Spirithorse, got the bit and ready to work! I've re-read your post about a hundred times only to start confusing myself with the "how to do this" part. The combing...are you combing up the reins i.e. from his withers up the reins to your chest so to speak? Or do I have this all wrong?

What do you mean by "don't block him"? Don't make it to where he CAN'T put his head down to soften to the bit?

Let me know what you think... trying to start tomorrow.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Awesome! I'm sure you will love the bit. Yes, you are combing the reins from the withers up. If you use leather reins they won't slide as smoothly through your hands so you need to make sure that you aren't getting little tiny jerks while combing (especially if you have braided reins). I use rope reins made out of Samson yachting rope and the feel is awesome. I've done this exercise with several horses using leather reins and while not ideal it still works.

By don't block him, I mean that when he goes to put his head down you don't hold onto the reins so that he jerks himself in the mouth. You want to allow the reins to slide through your hands when he goes to put his head down. Once he has the general idea and is kind of consistant, when he puts his head down instead of stopping the combing action altogether, keep combing the rein you still have left. It may not be much, but that's okay! Keep that steady, rhythmic feel.

One big key here is NO FLOPPY REINS! lol. That was my biggest problem. I was, in a way, afraid to put much contact on my horse's mouth because of his confidence issues, so when he would invert my reins would get floppy, thus defeating the purpose of the exercise. So the higher he puts his head, the more drag you put in the reins. And believe me, I had to put A LOT of drag in my reins with my horse! But he had some deeply imbedded confidence issues with the bit, so your case may not be as extreme. 

Good luck!! Let me know how it goes!


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## ahearn (Jul 10, 2007)

WWWOOOHHOOOO! We have success! Maybe baby steps, but I'll take it! Rocket did GREAT for his first time. I did have to back him to the fence though! It took just a couple of tries before he got the hint! He softened to the bit several times during our session. Tomorrow we'll try again! Thanks again Spirithorse! Now, one more question...you said I might lose my back.... how do I regain that? Start from ground zero?


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

AWESOME! Congrats on your successful session!  

At this point, yes, you will lose your back up. The reason for that happening is because right now you are simply asking him to reach for the bit when he feels contact. So after he is very, very good at reaching for the bit from the halt, walk, and trot, then you can ask for the back up again. This was something I had to be very patient with, considering my horse's confidence issues. Basically you can start from the ground while you have the bridle on him IF you use voice commands. If not, re-teach it from the saddle.

This is how I distinguished my back up with my horse. You ALWAYS want to start with your seat and energy first, not your reins. So bring your energy back, get a backing up kind of feel in your body, then pick up your reins and hold one steady while you RAISE YOUR OTHER STRAIGHT UP. Not back, but lift straight up. This is called a Suspension Rein. What this will do is give the horse the idea to elevate his shoulders and come back. Now, you don't have to lift the rein waaaaay up high, that's not the idea, but lift it up some. Now your horse may try to reach for the bit so when he does go with him to some degree but then just hold. It may help to face him toward a fence so he really can't do anything but back up. When he even shifts his weight at this point release and rub him. Reward the slightest try. 

It's really cool how horses can distinguish between things like this. When I started re-teaching my back up Rango actually caught on rather quickly. And it was wonderful to feel him be soft and confident in the bridle when I backed him. His cadence was right on, soft in the poll, so much different then he was before.


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## ahearn (Jul 10, 2007)

OK guys! He's doing great with lowering his head and softening to the bit at a halt and at a walk, BUT at the trot up pops the head again. I'm not talking about just a little up, I'm talking wwwwaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy up! I continuously combed my reins through my hands but he didn't respond at all. It almost seems like he is concentrating on his trot and not paying attention to me at all! Thoughts? Just continue witht he training and give him more time?


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## ahearn (Jul 10, 2007)

Bump! HHHHHEEEEELLLLLPPPP!!!!


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I wrote you back finally lol. Sorry for the delayed rsponse.


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