# First critique - please help me with my position



## kimj (Jun 15, 2010)

Hello,

Would love a critique of both me and my horse. I'm an adult rider (just about 40), been riding a few years now, taking lessons but my coach is too easy on me :wink: as she knows I struggle with confidence/nervousness issues. I've been quite a nervous Nellie over the years so it took a long time for me to even be comfortable cantering, and this horse in particular I used to be terrified of as he would always be naughty with timid riders, run their legs into the rail, etc, so I just started riding him this year. I now lease him and ride him about 2-3 times a week, twice on my own and once a week group lesson (hunter barn). 

So my big issue is my position. I'm a perfectionist so I over-think it to death but rarely feel like I've quite got the right position. I have a tendency to lean forward and also have somewhat of a chair seat I think, but I can't seem to fix either of them no matter what I do. If I lean back, especially in the canter, I feel like I bounce around on his back which I don't do as much if I stay in a lighter more forward seat. I haven't the foggiest notion how to 'glue my seatbones to the saddle' (like you often hear). In theory, I get it, but I just can't seem to make it happen. 

It doesn't help I'm sure that my horse is huge (though he's on a diet) and I have itty bitty short legs so I have a hard time my legs getting around him but any constructive criticism/advice greatly appreciated on how to improve. This video was taken at the start of my ride so we were both just warming up, but it's the only one I have.

The horse is a school horse. He's a Canadian so meant to be stocky, but not quite that stocky! He can be very stubborn, lazy, but he really is a big teddy bear, just with a bit of an attitude at times. :wink:

Thanks for any advice!

Here's the video.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

oh pooh! the video is marked "private". CAn you change that please?


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## kimj (Jun 15, 2010)

Sorry, forgot about that. Hope it works now....


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## ElaineLighten (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey there, a few things I noticed:
You do have a chair seat. But I can't help but feel it's because your lower leg is compensating for your upper body, which is leaning too far forward. You also posted one the wrong diagonal in the first half of the video - maybe something you can ask your instructor that you want to learn. (It is quite simple once you know it though, rise and fall with the leg on the wall). 
I'd suggest some no stirrup work, really focus on a long leg and tall body, even just in walk at first, it will really help you feel where your lower leg is suppose to be. You need to work towards that shoulder - hip - heel alignment 
Other than that I enjoyed your video, you have nice soft hands and give good, quiet aids.


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## lacey123 (Jan 19, 2012)

Wow he is a beef cake lol! I think that you to look happy together and that is a good start. I agree with the post above, and if your instructor can put you on the lunge line once in a while with out stirrups that will help. I don't ride hunter jumper but to me your stirrups look sooo short, that could just be because I tend to ride a bit on the long side, however if your stirrups are to short for you it will make your upper body go forward and it will be harder for your ankles to absorb the shock of the trot, which is what they are supposed to do. I hope that makes a little sense, I do think though that you to are a good pair and you will get there, good luck


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## kimj (Jun 15, 2010)

Hi there,

Thanks for the comments so far. Agree with them completely - just don't know how to change the leaning! I do no stirrup work lots but I think just in the same position! lol I've been working on the shoulder-hip-heel forever and still can't fix it. Interesting though if you watch a video of the other girl who leases him, she also rides in a chair seat... Maybe it's partly his 'ample' girth?! 

Just also wanted to say I do know diagonals. Have no idea why I wasn't doing it. How embarrassing. Probably too busy thinking about trying to get the leg back knowing a video was going on. :wink:

Oh ya, unfortunately my instructor never uses the lunge line... group lessons and all I guess. 

Thanks again.


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## kimj (Jun 15, 2010)

I forgot to add that I always wonder about my stirrup length but the next hole down feels 'dressagey' and I don't get much 'clearance' over the pommel and have a hard time getting my heel down, but I'll try it again.

Thanks!


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

Your stirrups did look a tad tall to me. Personally, I prefer longer stirrups or else my leg starts cramping. 

I noticed with your posting you lean forward a lot, especially when going up, and that you seem to be correcting yourself sometimes by trying to be straighter. At the beginning it did look like you lost balance for a second. 

Try rolling those shoulders back and sitting straight. No post work, or, sitting trot work, will also help your seat. 

When you know you have the correct position, you will have a slight uncomfortable "tug" in your legs. During a lesson my position got slopping, and my instructor had me put my leg farther back than I normally do... Uncomfortable!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm madly in love with that horse! I think he must be my mare's twin brother  Where is he so I can steal him ^^

I think you look great. I do agree you're legs are compensating for you leaning forward. Canadians are just about the most comfortable bareback ride (outside of gaited horses) so take that saddle off! That will help line up your leg quite a bit. Try first just walking, focusing on your position and stay up nice and tall. Think of a string coming out of the top of your head pulling you straight up in the air. Roll your shoulders in backward circles to help open up your diaphragm and keep your breathing steady.
Yes your diagonal was wrong a good deal of the video - definitely have your instructor work with you on that  I had a terrible time learning diagonals with a saddle, I had to look constantly at the outside shoulder. It wasn't until I took some serious bareback lessons that I really learned to feel the diagonal. Even though it's very difficult to post bareback, the horse's motion really helps you post.


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## SaddleOnline (Oct 20, 2011)

Looks pretty good! I think the next step is developing an independant hand and seat, do you see how when you post your hands come up and catch his mouth? You want your hands to float in one place while your body is posting. Think about having more elastic bend in your elbows and hip (I like imagining 20 lb weights hanging off of my elbows). Lessons on the lunge line can really help with that, maybe you could schedule a time to have a few with your instructor? If I were your instructor I would put you on the lunge line, and take away stirrups and reins for a bit  Keep up the good work! Cute horse!


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## kimj (Jun 15, 2010)

Thanks everyone! Just have to reiterate I'm seriously horrified about the diagonal thing. I really do know them, not necessarily to feel that great, but I certainly usually make sure I'm on the right one - and my instructor will yell at whoever is not on the right one so she's all over that. I'm also all about the 'technical' side of riding, so for me to be doing that wrong for that long seriously bothers me! I clearly wasn't paying attention and I can only assume it was because of the video as I was just thinking about position only. 

Anyway, ya, I'm a big chicken about the bareback thing as you can imagine with the nervous Nellie situation. I probably do all the leaning just out of habit from when I first started to ride when I was really nervous and practically in fetal position. This is probably much improved compared to how I used to ride! :wink: Nothing like learning to ride as a nervous adult! LOL Now I'm not particularly nervous but can't shake the habit. I also sit at a desk all day long and know I lean forward during the day too with that, so anything other than that feels very odd to me. I'll think about the bareback thing.... :wink:

Lunge line unfortunately won't happen even though I know it's the way to go. My instructor just doesn't do it. Maybe just lots of no stirrup work will suffice for now...?!

Thanks again.


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

You don't need just your instructor to help.  any willing person who will hold the line for you can do it. 

My instructor, when he lunges me, just holds it, and I need to control the horse. 

When you rise, the shoulder you want the diaganol on, should be forward. I forget which side of the shoulder to look for (its been years since I had a posting lesson). 

Bareback IS scary... At first. But the more you do it, the more confident you will feel, and the better rider you will be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

The major thing that I see is not so much the stirrups or the leaning or the hands going up and down, but the fact that you are actually balancing off of the reins.
First thing is first, before you can develop a seat or feel more independent and comfortable and confident with your seat is those hands need to come down and rest on the horse's withers. A bucking strap is really useful for you to hang on to and get used to not being able to use your hands to balance your body. Even if you are just gripping the bucking strap, still focus on pressing your hands down and away from your body and then using your core to stabilize yourself. Imagine that your head is balanced on top of your shoulders and not attached, you need to keep it on your shoulders and not let it fall off!
Once you are more balanced with your body, you will feel more comfortable with a longer stirrup, with sitting in the canter, with riding bareback, etc.. But the first step is to re wire the body to balance itself with no reliance on the hands.

Good luck!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

your comment about the other person leasing also being in a chair seat is very telling. It can be due to the saddle, AND the build of the hrose. He may be really well sprung in the ribs, with a kind of "groove" in front of his big belly, such that it's really hard to keep your leg down under you , when it is being rolled forward into that groove, time after time.
Could you take a photo of the horse, with saddle on, squared up on flat ground?

The saddle looks like it is a little small for you. You saying that with the stirrups down one, you end up banging your ladybits onto the pommel, that tells me that the saddle might be too small for you in the seat. I think the saddle itself is making it hard for you to get out of the chair seat.

THe upper body will go forward to compensate for a lower leg shifted forward, but sometimes it's viceversa. you know, chicken and egg thingy.
one can see that the stirrup leather is not vertical, but ratehr angling forward, so you definitely have a forward push to your lower leg, but I dont' get the feeling that you are bracing, but ratehr that the saddle angles are putting you there.

being short legged on a round horse is going to make you feel a bit insecure becuase, as you said, you cannot get your leg around the horse at all. Have you ever tried riding him in a dressage saddle?

IN any case, to ride as you are, you need to have really strong core muscles to have such balance, without being able to get your leg around the belly. It's a bit like being a jocky; you have to balance OVER the hrose and needs abs of steel. Get working! (just kidding. this comes from the woman with the Santa Claus belly; bowl full of jelly.)
But seriously, you will need to be mentall focussed more on your core.

Your elbows are a bit rigid in that video, and I guess it's becuase you are so focussed on your position for the filming. I suggest riding for short periods of time with the reins in one hand, so you cannot use the rein for balance at all. switch out the reins from one hand to the other, while moving the "free" hand to various positions. ALL while keeping your upper body firmly engaged and still.

Getting more forward out of the hrose will help in all of these things, but I am sure , as a school horse, he makes that a challenge. can't really blame him.

you look like a neat rider , careful of the hrose, polite to his mouth . I didn't see the nervous nelly, but I can see a certain air of stiffness . Try to do somethings that are fun enough that you don't have time to worry about falling or ? like relay races , or other gymkhana stuff. it's great for laughing while becoming braver than normal.


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## kimj (Jun 15, 2010)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> The major thing that I see is not so much the stirrups or the leaning or the hands going up and down, but the fact that you are actually balancing off of the reins.
> First thing is first, before you can develop a seat or feel more independent and comfortable and confident with your seat is those hands need to come down and rest on the horse's withers. A bucking strap is really useful for you to hang on to and get used to not being able to use your hands to balance your body. Even if you are just gripping the bucking strap, still focus on pressing your hands down and away from your body and then using your core to stabilize yourself. Imagine that your head is balanced on top of your shoulders and not attached, you need to keep it on your shoulders and not let it fall off!
> Once you are more balanced with your body, you will feel more comfortable with a longer stirrup, with sitting in the canter, with riding bareback, etc.. But the first step is to re wire the body to balance itself with no reliance on the hands.
> 
> Good luck!


Thanks for the input - and I'm not singling you out, just realized how I could do the 'quote' thing! LOL 

I'm just not sure I really am balancing off the reins. I work really hard not to do this, I can post just fine with no reins and remain balanced. I usually make sure to do part of my ride either on a loose rein and/or one arm reaching up, etc, just to make sure of that. Maybe I change my position once I take up contact again though?

Interesting development though for anyone interested, I went for a ride today, lowered my stirrups a hole and really concentrated on pulling my shoulders back and what I discovered is just how heavy my horse is in my hands! I think part of it could be that he really pulls me forward because he leans into the bit. He's not bracing against it but just more being lazy I think. I had to work really hard to stay upright and not let him pull me forward and now seeing it differently, in the past I would have felt like I would have to give him his head more because I'm so conscious of not wanting to pull on his mouth, but this time I wouldn't let him get away with it so kept myself sitting more back than usual, did lots of half-halts, etc. It was hard work though! I may have to lengthen my reins a bit next time. Not sure if I need to demand him to be a bit lighter, or let him have his head with a bit of a longer rein (still contact, but maybe my short arms are making it too short contact with leaning back more). Not sure if that makes sense.... 

The stirrups down a hole seemed to help too, but again I'm not sure if that will work for two-point work as I can barely clear the pommel when in two-point with them down the hole. Was much better though in order to be able keep my leg back, as well as allowing me to comfortably sit back more.

As for putting my hands on his withers, honestly my arms are too short and that makes me lean forward even more when I try to do that. My torso is longer than my arms/legs so I literally can't do that without having to lean forward. I do often use a martingale but I my arms practically are straight along with me leaning forward to reach it! :wink:

Thanks again everyone. Appreciate your time!


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## kimj (Jun 15, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> your comment about the other person leasing also being in a chair seat is very telling. It can be due to the saddle, AND the build of the hrose. He may be really well sprung in the ribs, with a kind of "groove" in front of his big belly, such that it's really hard to keep your leg down under you , when it is being rolled forward into that groove, time after time.
> Could you take a photo of the horse, with saddle on, squared up on flat ground?
> 
> The saddle looks like it is a little small for you. You saying that with the stirrups down one, you end up banging your ladybits onto the pommel, that tells me that the saddle might be too small for you in the seat. I think the saddle itself is making it hard for you to get out of the chair seat.
> ...


Thanks for all your thoughts, tinyliny. No, we don't have anything other than the all-purpose saddles so this is all I've got to work with. Would be very interesting to try a dressage one though. I rode in one once at a dressage barn (different horse), and OMG, best saddle ever!! Makes it almost tempting to do dressage just for the feeling you get riding in one of those. Totally different experience!!

Interesting what you said about the core. I really tried to be more aware of it today - had to really in order to stay back and not let him pull me forward. I know I'm guilty of being really lazy in that way - part of the problem I think. I'm quite 'good' at riding in a permanent two-point. It requires very little effort on my part. :wink:

Thanks again. You're right, I do need some 'fun stuff', both for me and him but unfortunately I can't take him anywhere. It's just me, him, and the ring, and the occasional show where I really get stiff and nervous! :wink:


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## kimj (Jun 15, 2010)

Deschutes said:


> You don't need just your instructor to help.  any willing person who will hold the line for you can do it.
> 
> My instructor, when he lunges me, just holds it, and I need to control the horse.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the idea, Deschutes. I'll see if a friend of mine can do it for me. I did it a few times at a dressage barn and it was really helpful. Then I went back to my old hunter barn and reverted to my old habits! :wink:


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## kimj (Jun 15, 2010)

PunksTank said:


> I'm madly in love with that horse! I think he must be my mare's twin brother  Where is he so I can steal him ^^
> 
> I think you look great. I do agree you're legs are compensating for you leaning forward. Canadians are just about the most comfortable bareback ride (outside of gaited horses) so take that saddle off! That will help line up your leg quite a bit. Try first just walking, focusing on your position and stay up nice and tall. Think of a string coming out of the top of your head pulling you straight up in the air. Roll your shoulders in backward circles to help open up your diaphragm and keep your breathing steady.
> Yes your diagonal was wrong a good deal of the video - definitely have your instructor work with you on that  I had a terrible time learning diagonals with a saddle, I had to look constantly at the outside shoulder. It wasn't until I took some serious bareback lessons that I really learned to feel the diagonal. Even though it's very difficult to post bareback, the horse's motion really helps you post.


Forgot to say thanks for the comments on my horse - and I'll never tell where he is! :wink: I think he's gorgeous too. I do love Canadians - such a nice ride! I can't wait until he slims down some more - but I'm happy to say I can already go up 3 more holes on his girth since that video so he's getting there!


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

kimj said:


> Thanks for the input - and I'm not singling you out, just realized how I could do the 'quote' thing! LOL
> 
> I'm just not sure I really am balancing off the reins. I work really hard not to do this, I can post just fine with no reins and remain balanced. I usually make sure to do part of my ride either on a loose rein and/or one arm reaching up, etc, just to make sure of that. Maybe I change my position once I take up contact again though?
> 
> ...


Then you have to push your elbows down into your hips. I am 5'3 and have a similar problem. However, you have to figure out how to do it.
Press your shoulders down, your elbows should graze your hip bones and then your hands will be able to touch the withers. This will also engage your core.
The reason the horse is heavy in your hands is because your elbows are locked back into a pulling position. They need to press forward and down, along with your hands. Once your back is stronger and you are not using the arm to ride the horse, he will not be "strong" or "pull" on you because you are balanced and anchored and not using the reins to stay on.

Good luck!


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## kimj (Jun 15, 2010)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Then you have to push your elbows down into your hips. I am 5'3 and have a similar problem. However, you have to figure out how to do it.
> Press your shoulders down, your elbows should graze your hip bones and then your hands will be able to touch the withers. This will also engage your core.
> The reason the horse is heavy in your hands is because your elbows are locked back into a pulling position. They need to press forward and down, along with your hands. Once your back is stronger and you are not using the arm to ride the horse, he will not be "strong" or "pull" on you because you are balanced and anchored and not using the reins to stay on.
> 
> Good luck!


Okay, thanks. Will try to do what you say with my shoulders/elbows, etc. 
Just a question though - he's heavy on the hand for all of us who ride him (three in total). Do you think we're all doing the same thing? Our instructor always says he's just trying to go into a frame (she uses draw reins on him herself sometimes) and that's what is causing the heaviness. We're just supposed to stay 'strong' and not let the heaviness pull us forward...

Thanks for your time.


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## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

Firstly, lovely horse )
Secondly, you are so like me lol. Sit up! Back straight, boobs out, shoulders back ;o) and relax! It does look like you're enjoying it though so you go girl!


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## kimj (Jun 15, 2010)

EquineBovine said:


> Firstly, lovely horse )
> Secondly, you are so like me lol. Sit up! Back straight, boobs out, shoulders back ;o) and relax! It does look like you're enjoying it though so you go girl!


Thanks EquineBovine! Glad someone else can relate!  Will try though clearly none of the above comes naturally whatsoever! lol


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## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

I'm always getting yelled at by my mum for leaning forward. She's threatened to shove a pole down my shirt into the saddle to get my sitting UP. The best way I remember is to shove my shoulders back and stick my boobs out. It really helps and you'll find riding a lot easier too! 
The hard part is staying like that haha


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## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

Oh and try do some stuff out of the saddle to help build up tummy and back muscles. That will make things a whole lot easier! So maybe start sit ups? Like as many as you can do to start off with, twice a day, and then just build on it )


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## kimj (Jun 15, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> your comment about the other person leasing also being in a chair seat is very telling. It can be due to the saddle, AND the build of the hrose. He may be really well sprung in the ribs, with a kind of "groove" in front of his big belly, such that it's really hard to keep your leg down under you , when it is being rolled forward into that groove, time after time.
> Could you take a photo of the horse, with saddle on, squared up on flat ground?


These are for tinyliny since you asked about pics of him. This is the best I could get as far as squared up on flat ground. Let me know if you see anything. Hope the pics are somewhat useful.

Another interesting thing I came across was watching some Wendy Murdoch videos where she spoke of 'filling' the lower back. She says the hollow, stiff backs a lot of riders have can cause using the reins for balance, pushing feet forward, and on and on. I'm definitely guilty of hollowing/bracing my back, not on purpose of course but because of constantly being told to 'sit tall', etc, but I didn't realize how I was doing it wasn't the right way. It's crazy how much we can get wrong if the details are left out!! So now I can definitely feel how much a difference it can make in stabilizing the core even just sitting in my chair. I can't ride until next Wed but I'll definitely be trying it then.

Back to my horse though, here are the pics. 

Thank you.

















And just 'cuz he's got a cute face. :wink:


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## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

Beaut horse! <3 But don't like the saddle...hmmm how do you find it to ride in? I don't know what it is but it looks tiny and uncomfy and generally not nice...prob just me ;o)


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## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

If he goes missing he is totally NOT in New Zealand  hehehe


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## LoveDanceRide (Feb 23, 2013)

I can see that you're really working to keep him going with every step! Good job!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Okay when you post you do NOT bring the reins up with you... so learn to open and close your elbows so that your hands stay where they are.

Second, you need to lengthen your stirrups at least a hole or two.

Third... you are forcing your legs out and therefore they are splaying infront of you. Instead of shoving your heel down, think stretch my legs down. I guarantee if you watch this video, you will learn a fw exercises to try: How To Practice Your Classical Seat In Horseback Riding - YouTube

He needs more leg... he's kind of dragging his hind end a bit. 

I like how soft you are  and great job looking up.

Sit back and sit tall.


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