# Horse Slaughter



## daviskryan (Feb 2, 2013)

Hi all!

I received an interesting e-mail today r, but project aside; I would like to focus on this e-mail for a second. It simply proves the ignorance of many in today's society.

"Hi, I do not want this to come off as being rude but I cannot understand why you say the horror of slaughter. Do you think that we are improving the quality of horses lives by keeping them from being humanely killed for meat and hides. Do you realize that because of the ban on horse slaughter not only have over 1000 jobs been lost in the US but horses are being left to starve, and are being shot or left to die on farms and ranches all over the county. What are ranchers to do with elderly/sick, or horses they can no longer afford to feed which has happened all over the country. Not to mention the cost of local and federal governments having to deal with neglected horses. If you truly care about horses welfare you would want to reinstate the horse kill." - Mark Coxon

Now realize please that this project is simply a photography book that I am putting together focusing on the beauty, innocence, and gentleness of these impressive animals. 100% of any proceeds made from the book will be going directly to organizations such as Canter USA and New Vocations to help ensure humane treatment to horses. Out of the blue I get a message like this. Awful! Anyway, thank you for listening to my rant! Hopefully getting it out there will help release some of the anger that quickly ensued after reading this.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

I get that you feel the email was awful, and that it may have been "out of place" for this person to rant at you but...

if I'm reading right, they have a few points there. Perhaps they are just angry about the suffering caused to the animals? *shrug*


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## MissColors (Jul 17, 2011)

JUST SO YOU KNOW 

Alot of people on this thread are pro horse slaughter.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I completely agree with the person who sent the email. There are worse deaths than slaughter, starvation, neglect, abandonment would be some.


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## daviskryan (Feb 2, 2013)

Hmmm, seriously? Please explain why one would be pro-horse slaughter?


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

daviskryan said:


> I would like to focus on this e-mail for a second. *It simply proves the ignorance of many in today's society.*


LOL Oh my ... now THAT is priceless :wink:


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## daviskryan (Feb 2, 2013)

I do agree, starvation, neglect, etc is JUST as disgusting and incredibly disheartening. That being said, I find no advantage to horse slaughter. It too is inhumane.


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## daviskryan (Feb 2, 2013)

Please check this out and tell me slaughter is humane...


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

Starvation is disheartening? Do you have a CLUE as to how painful that is? Any at all? What is does to the body? Do a google search because I am not going to provide that education for you. If you do nothing else, take a look at the images tab to get a good eye full. It is not remotely even close to the word "disheartening".

Before you start throwing the word inhumane around, take a good hard look.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

BBBCrone said:


> Starvation is disheartening? Do you have a CLUE as to how painful that is? Any at all? What is does to the body? Do a google search because I am not going to provide that education for you. If you do nothing else, take a look at the images tab to get a good eye full. It is not remotely even close to the word "disheartening".
> 
> *Before you start throwing the word inhumane around, take a good hard look.*


This. Imagine a slow and horrid death. Think prolonged.

People have been known to dump injured, dying horses, even on other people's property. There was a thread a little while back from Endiku...someone dumped a broken legged, dying, lice covered, sore covered, miserable mini stallion on her property...cutting fence wires to do it.

Go look at those pictures, and tell me that THE TIME and suffering it took to get there was preferable over a quick death? IMO, I know which I'd pick for myself....

Here it is: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-health/severe-stunting-can-she-ever-normal-147465/page31/


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## daviskryan (Feb 2, 2013)

Okay, disheartening was a poor choice of wording to say the least. I'm sorry for that. I understand exactly what starvation is and entails. I understand that it being quicker doesn't prolong the suffering. But let me at least ask you guys this, you are AT LEAST slightly bothered by the practices used in the slaughter houses... correct?


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## BornToRun (Sep 18, 2011)

daviskryan said:


> I do agree, starvation, neglect, etc is JUST as disgusting and incredibly disheartening. That being said, I find no advantage to horse slaughter. It too is inhumane.


I don't see how slaughter is anymore inhumane than slowly starving to death. For us who have not been starved for long periods of time, we don't know how painful that really is. Starving to death takes a long time, whereas slaughter takes much less time. I have expressed this on another anti slaughter thread, I would rather send my horses to slaughter than let them sit in a field starving. 

I feel that the person who emailed you covered a lot of points. You can't look at slaughter as an evil thing. Imagine how man cruelty cases there would if there was no slaughter. Yes, some kill houses could change how they go about it, but without it, there would be hundreds of more horses sitting out in fields hungry. 

Ontario's horse industry has taken a bit of a landslide, with the price of hay this year, there are a lot of people who can't afford to keep their horses. People can't afford to buy anymore, either. Nor can rescues take in much horses because of how many they have right now. What are these people supposed to do? Let these horses starve because they can't feed them anymore? Any rational person would see slaughter as a necessary option.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

daviskryan said:


> Hmmm, seriously? Please explain why one would be pro-horse slaughter?


I've had horses all of my life, and I am pro slaughter. Most people here are. 

Before I learned a little about it, I was against it, now I am very pro. 

Lots of reasons: 
Financially there needs to be a bottom price to the market, without that it devalues all horses. 

The Mexico and Canadian plants closed for a short while towards the end of last year, in that time, CL was inundated with free horse ads. What becomes of these horses? 

Many people have had unwanted horses dumped in their pasture. 

It's expensive to dispose of a horse's carcass. Many people who cannot afford to feed their horses, how would they pay for the death/disposal? 

What would you like to happen to all the horses at auctions who are selling for $20-30? There are not enough homes available. I bought my horse for $2k, that was the smallest of my costs, without vets bills, he costs me $500 a month. It's not possible for me to take on any more horses, nor do I want a low end horse even if I won the lottery. 

Do you have the income/space/resources needed to rehome the 100 or so horses that probably go through your local auction every week? Probably not, so what happens to these horses? 

If I had my way, I'd have a slaughter plant next door to every auction. That way the horses would not be shipped a long distance and it would be quick. 

It's nice to have a save every horsey attitude but it's not realistic.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

daviskryan said:


> Okay, disheartening was a poor choice of wording to say the least. I'm sorry for that. I understand exactly what starvation is and entails. I understand that it being quicker doesn't prolong the suffering.* But let me at least ask you guys this, you are AT LEAST slightly bothered by the practices used in the slaughter houses... correct?*


Do you eat beef?

I have heard that killing a cow with the current methods is mechanically more accurate than horse slaughter, though I am not sure if this is true or not.
However:

*We've all heard/seen the horror stories with cow slaughter.*

*So are you against cow slaughter? Or does horse slaughter just bother you because they are HORSES?*


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## daviskryan (Feb 2, 2013)

Thank you for a well thought out answer, AlexS. I do appreciate that, and I might add that it brings up some better points than the "over 1000 jobs been lost in the US" statement in the e-mail. 

So lets say slaughter houses do need to exist, that still leaves us with the inhumane treatment in which the slaughter houses go about the killing. Not to mention the days and weeks leading up to the slaughter.


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## BornToRun (Sep 18, 2011)

daviskryan said:


> So lets say slaughter houses do need to exist, that still leaves us with the inhumane treatment in which the slaughter houses go about the killing. Not to mention the days and weeks leading up to the slaughter.


Except, not all of them are like that. Look at some of the WHW footage, you'll see hay and water buckets in those trucks headed to slaughter houses. You need to seek out the houses that do have ill treatment, instead of vilifying them all.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

daviskryan said:


> 36 Hours to Hell - YouTube Please check this out and tell me slaughter is humane...


Please, posting PETA videos are not going to help your "cause". PETA and the such are nothing but a bunch of uneducated terrorists using celebrities to promote their BS.


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## daviskryan (Feb 2, 2013)

COWCHICK77, who cares what you _THINK_ the video is about or _WHO _produced it. Did you watch it? Regardless of whether you think there should or shouldn't be slaughter houses; as BornToRun so generously pointed out, this _PARTICULAR_ slaughter house has VERY inhumane practices. It is very difficult to say otherwise...


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

*head desk*

Dieing hurts, ok? It just does. Your organs shut down. Your body cramps. You are in pain 24/7. *It is agonizing.* To a starving horse who's body is shutting down, a bolt to the head is a happy ending. To a horse who is riddled with disease, has broken bones, open and infected wounds and NO ONE to care for it, a knock to the skull is much needed relief.

Healthy horses go to slaughter. Hurt horses go to slaughter. The one thing they have in common is that nobody wants them and nobody wants to care for them. Nobody. Absolutely no one. No food for them. No facilities to hold them. They are unwanted. They need somewhere to go, so we have slaughter.

And believe me, death is a happy ending to a lot of those horses.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Actually who produced has quite a bit to do with it.


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

If you are using the video to validate your statements then it most definitely IS up for critique and folks are allowed to give their opinion on it. Personally, if PETA has its name on it, it's immediately suspect in my book. *shrugs*


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I might also add having the funding to regulate and inspect kill plants would be a better answer rather than "banning" horse slaughter like PETA advocates.


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

I agree but many on this forum are pro slaughter so you have to tread lightly no need for a debate. 
IMO he had no right to email you that and it shows how rude he is, im sorry I was taught if you have nothing nice to say dont say it at all and you were not asking his opinion.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

daviskryan said:


> Thank you for a well thought out answer, AlexS. I do appreciate that, and I might add that it brings up some better points than the "over 1000 jobs been lost in the US" statement in the e-mail.
> 
> So lets say slaughter houses do need to exist, that still leaves us with the inhumane treatment in which the slaughter houses go about the killing. Not to mention the days and weeks leading up to the slaughter.


Well there's the thing. I don't have all the answers. The short answer is I don't know. 

I believe that there needs to be a holding period of some length before horses are slaughtered. Stolen horses show up, people save others, others are sold and have new lives. Meds need time to get out of the horses system etc. 

By the way, the saving horses from the holding pens is a MASSIVE scam in my opinion. Several rescues work to do this, and I believe it to be nonsense. Another Chance For Horses (AC4H, google that name and scam) and Camelot are the big ones that come to mind. They take a fee for saving the horse. The horse that the meat man bought for $25, is now a $1-2k horse. The 'rescues' and the meat man get this money, allowing the meat man to make a bigger profit and ship more horses. It's such a scam. A better system would be to rehome the horses before the meat man has them, outbid him at the auction, don't line his pocket after he has bought them. Make it not profitable for him. The current system is a joke, and it annoys me immensely. 


I don't choose to watch slaughter videos. I don't like it, but I see it as a necessary evil. I'd rather not see it. 
But heck I enjoy my beef and chicken, and I am sure not good things happen to them too. If I had enough money to own the land, I'd raise and send my own meat to slaughter. That way I'd know the animals had a good life and were cared for, and that they were not full of all sorts of things I'd rather my family didn't consume. If everyone was vegan, there would be no cows. 

Personally I'd rather the US open up the slaughter plants again. Horses would not travel as far, it would be kinder for it to be over quicker. I'd like to see it very regulated, and as humane as it can be. 

My horse would not see a slaughter plant, if that's in my control. But I don't think it is. It's very possible I will sell him, and he would be sold quite a few times in his life, I can't control that really as I would sell if I didn't have the income to give him the care he deserves. If it's in my control, I would put him to sleep quietly and in his home. However he's only 8, it's unlikely I will see that end with him. 

I am also not the person who would dump their old broken horse at an auction. But I can't control other people, and something needs to happen to those horses. 

I am a foster parent of teenagers. I well understand that there is not enough homes for human children. Many of my kids come from detention (kiddie jail), not because they have committed a crime (although some have) but because they need a bed while a foster home is found. Many are there for close to 6 months to a year, as there are not enough homes available. 
If we (as a society) can't even look after our kids, we are a long way from looking after our animals.


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## daviskryan (Feb 2, 2013)

Thank you for your time here on the forum... however it seems as if I may as well be talking to a brick wall. We've acknowledged that I am aware that there are TOO many horses and no where for all of them to go. I KNOW what that means. I also know that I've since made that perfectly evident, and you are STILL making statements suggesting otherwise. That being said, I think it's better that I not be here.


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## FaydesMom (Mar 25, 2012)

I agree with pretty much every sentiment expressed by the person who sent you that e-mail. Closing the slaughter houses was one of the worst things to happen to the horse world in quite some time. There has been a huge jump in the number of death or starvation cases, and it just keeps getting worse and worse. There are just too many horses flooding the market, and such a down economy there just aren't enough homes for them all.

Even if it took a week long trip to get to and to go through a slaughter house, while maybe painful and frightening, it is over much more quickly than being left in a stall out of sight to just starve to death over a couple months time.


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

daviskryan said:


> Thank you for your time here on the forum... however it seems as if I may as well be talking to a brick wall. We've acknowledged that I am aware that there are TOO many horses and no where for all of them to go. I KNOW what that means. I also know that I've since made that perfectly evident, and you are STILL making statements suggesting otherwise. That being said, I think it's better that I not be here.


We all have different opinions it doesnt mean mine is right more than yours. Dont leave because you disagree on one thing. I am against slaughter and like others said none of us have all the answers and if we did we most likely wouldnt need slaughter.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

daviskryan said:


> Thank you for your time here on the forum... however it seems as if I may as well be talking to a brick wall. We've acknowledged that I am aware that there are TOO many horses and no where for all of them to go. I KNOW what that means. I also know that I've since made that perfectly evident, and you are STILL making statements suggesting otherwise. That being said, I think it's better that I not be here.


I think maybe I misunderstood you. This isn't personal to you or I, I am not arguing with you. I thought we were having a conversation. 


I'd rather horses not be slaughtered either, but I don't see an alternative. I'd be all about hearing an alternative, but I can't think of one, and no one has ever suggested one and there have been a great many conversations about this here. 

Personally I'd rather go after the cause rather than the effect. There are a great many breeders who breed because they can. There are others who are well aware where their horses end up, but it doesn't matter, they are making a buck or two. There are breeders who breed for a pretty color, without giving a hoot about performance, or anything other than the color of the horse.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

daviskryan said:


> *Now realize please that this project is simply a photography book that I am putting together focusing on the beauty, innocence, and gentleness of these impressive animals. *100% of any proceeds made from the book will be going directly to organizations such as Canter USA and New Vocations to help ensure humane treatment to horses. Out of the blue I get a message like this. Awful! Anyway, thank you for listening to my rant! Hopefully getting it out there will help release some of the anger that quickly ensued after reading this.


"Horses are amazing animals and possess such gentleness. I am creating a hard cover book, showcasing photos of horses, however moreso than simply photos, I look to provoke feeling from readers. Also in the book I will bring awareness to the horror that is the slaughter of such innocent creatures."
Taken from your "project". So are you putting in photos of the actual slaughters?



daviskryan said:


> Hmmm, seriously? Please explain why one would be pro-horse slaughter?


Most things have been covered already. Less unwanted horses. Less horses starving and neglected horses. Better market for horse value. And more. 



daviskryan said:


> COWCHICK77, who cares what you _THINK_ the video is about or _WHO _produced it. Did you watch it? Regardless of whether you think there should or shouldn't be slaughter houses; as BornToRun so generously pointed out, this _PARTICULAR_ slaughter house has VERY inhumane practices. It is very difficult to say otherwise...


That was pretty rude. PETA and similar agencies will used the worst scenarios that will promote their view. They use them to pull on people's emotions even if the video is old, outdated, and the plant is no longer open. They won't use videos of plants that do it humanely.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Quite a few people have made comments about PETA without really explaining them, I will try. If you are still reading... 

PETA claims to collect money for local shelters, they don't. They don't outright saw it, it's implied, but the shelters don't see that money. 

They believe that riding horses is cruel, and horses should be wild. Many of us here have a problem with that. Obviously some horse riders are cruel, most are not. We love our horses, they are our passion and we often put ourselves into hardship to care for them. 


Many years ago my local PETA broke into a place that had foxes for fur coats. They released all of the foxes who decimated the local wildlife, as that number of foxes were not meant to be in that community. Foxes are rather evil animals, if they get into a hen house, they kill every hen before taking the one they want for their meal. It was really rough on all the wildlife, and it took time for it to recover. 

PETA is not how they present themselves as being.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

I am pro-slaughter because I feel it is a necessary evil. Not any different than dog pounds. Most dogs are put to sleep because of the overabundance. 

Slaughter houses are not the problem. They are the result. If there wasn't so many horses out there that something has to be done. The real problem is at the other end or really the beginning: over breeding. IF there was a way to control breeding, less horses and less need for slaughter houses. However, I don't see a change in regulating breeding.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

usandpets said:


> Slaughter houses are not the problem. They are the result. If there wasn't so many horses out there that something has to be done. The real problem is at the other end or really the beginning: over breeding. IF there was a way to control breeding, less horses and less need for slaughter houses. However, I don't see a change in regulating breeding.


A few of them are here on this board, and use the place to advertise their breeding stock, while not paying for advertising because it's a look at my pretty horse thread. A few for color, and another for the most amazing horse breed in the world. 

It's bothersome.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

The hypocrisy and arrogance shown by the rabid anti horse slaughter people are staggering. I noticed the OP completely ignored the question about whether or not he consumes meat. I'll lay odds he does, along with wearing and using leather on occasion. How is it okay to kill other animals for food, clothing and tools, but not horses? They're as much livestock as cattle.

OP, I don't know why you thought coming on this forum and proclaiming how anti horse slaughter you are would earn you laurels and kudos. The majority of horse owners are intelligent, rational adults who understand that not every horse is wanted, and instead of slobbing hyperbole and horror over the slaughter fate of these animals, they understand that this is a solution. Not a perfect one to be sure, but one no more horrific than what myriads of other animals go through on a daily basis.

You wanted people to agree with you, which is why you specifically posted the 'mean' e-mail. Since we didn't fall all over ourselves with shock and outrage over it, you've decided to take your ball and go home. I suggest you don't try the same thing again, unless you specifically go to an anti horse slaughter site. Otherwise, you'll find that the majority of horse foruns are filled with the same type of people you found here. We know better than city people the plight of the horse in modern society, but we're also pragmatic, level headed, and understand that what others do LEGALLY with their own animals is their business, not ours.

If you don't want your horse going to slaughter, don't send it there. However, you don't get to dictate to others what they can or cannot do with theirs, as long as it falls within legal parameters.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I'm always amused that PETA took video that was made by USDA inspectors who were building cases against unethical slaughter houses, edit the video, pretend they (PETA) are the savior of the noble horse and that they invested the money and effort into bringing this to light, and make money off it.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

All any videos have ever done for me is to convince me that we need well-run, inspected equine processing facilities no farther than 500 miles apart. They should all have feedlots set up close by and the feeding and care and processing all need to be monitored by responsible people (not people with an agenda).

For all the completely anti-slaughter people, I ask the same thing. 

No matter what we do, there are always going to be 100,000 to 400,000 horses per year that are completely UNWANTED. What do YOU propose to do with them that is doable, practical and can be done today? Since many horses live to be 30 years old plus with good care, how do YOU propose to make over a million horses disappear in 3 or 4 years. Think how many it will be in 10 years.

Ranchers are slaughtering cattle they intended to save for breeding because they cannot afford to find feed for them. The cattle herd in the US is smaller than it has been since they started keeping records. Within 2-3 years, beef will be double in price or more. Where do think the feed will come from for millions of 'useless horses'. 

What would YOU do with them all today?


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## IRaceBarrels (Jan 21, 2012)

daviskryan said:


> Hmmm, seriously? Please explain why one would be pro-horse slaughter?


Because If the US dosen't slaughter our own horses they go to canada and mexico for slaughter. The same number of US horses are processed no matter if its legal here or not. Our slaughter methods are far better than mexicos and why make a horse take an extra long trip for a more painful death.

Its really that simple. 
If you have the money and time by all means save the horses you can, but understand that its better for everyone if we kill our own horses.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I agree with IRaceBarrels. I support slaughter in the US because I trust the inspectors here & regulation here more so than Mexico, and I think much of the hardship from slaughter comes from the transport.

I'm not thrilled about slaughter, but I'd prefer it done locally, under regulation.


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

This subject has been beat to death...Humans are the fault of excess horses, so what are the answers? I hope I am never in a position to have to send mine to slaughter. I understand the need though. I do believe if slaughter is banned in the US, it should be truly banned by not allowing horses to be exported to slaughter elsewhere. By banning slaughter, eventually will it cause people to think twice about breeding/owning horses due to them not having an out? I would think so but I am probably wrong, humans can be selfish. Am I pro slaughter? I am on the fence with it and all slaughter should be regulated.

Sometimes I think certain humans should be regulated....:shock:


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## nvr2many (Jan 18, 2011)

AlexS said:


> Quite a few people have made comments about PETA without really explaining them, I will try. If you are still reading...
> 
> PETA claims to collect money for local shelters, they don't. They don't outright saw it, it's implied, but the shelters don't see that money.
> 
> ...


The "LIKE" button needs a "x10" option!!!


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

goneriding said:


> This subject has been beat to death...Humans are the fault of excess horses, so what are the answers? I hope I am never in a position to have to send mine to slaughter. I understand the need though. I do believe if slaughter is banned in the US, it should be truly banned by not allowing horses to be exported to slaughter elsewhere. By banning slaughter, eventually will it cause people to think twice about breeding/owning horses due to them not having an out? I would think so but I am probably wrong, humans can be selfish. Am I pro slaughter? I am on the fence with it and all slaughter should be regulated.
> 
> Sometimes I think certain humans should be regulated....:shock:


Exactly, my problem with it all is we all have different opinions on it so why cant some just drop it and move on. You can say what you want about Peta and other organizations but people are going to believe what they want to believe.

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive. " IMO we are not surviving we are destroying, that problem is people and sadly everything else suffers.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

chubbypony said:


> Exactly, my problem with it all is we all have different opinions on it so why cant some just drop it and move on. You can say what you want about Peta and other organizations but people are going to believe what they want to believe.


If that's what you believe, then why are _you_ posting on the thread?

If you're anti horse slaughter, then you need to have a solution for all the unwanted horses. One that's _not_ predicated on people 'being responsible', or some pie in the sky ideal that there are homes for every horse, because the reality is there _aren't_. Or is it just easier to shriek, wail, and rend your garments about the solution we DO have as cruel and inhumane, instead of working toward something that will at least be a compromise that everyone can deal with?

Until the antis and pros can work together without expecting someone other than themselves to do the dirty work, slaughter will remain the only _viable_ option for unwanted horses.


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## GlassPlatypus (May 25, 2012)

Cherie said:


> No matter what we do, there are always going to be 100,000 to 400,000 horses per year that are completely UNWANTED. What do YOU propose to do with them that is doable, practical and can be done today? Since many horses live to be 30 years old plus with good care, how do YOU propose to make over a million horses disappear in 3 or 4 years. Think how many it will be in 10 years.
> 
> Ranchers are slaughtering cattle they intended to save for breeding because they cannot afford to find feed for them. The cattle herd in the US is smaller than it has been since they started keeping records. Within 2-3 years, beef will be double in price or more. Where do think the feed will come from for millions of 'useless horses'.
> 
> What would YOU do with them all today?


Hmm, that just gave me an idea...could horsemeat soon become "The New Beef"? :wink:


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## nvr2many (Jan 18, 2011)

GlassPlatypus said:


> Hmm, that just gave me an idea...could horsemeat soon become "The New Beef"? :wink:


Horse meat is consumed in other countries all the time.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

chubbypony said:


> Exactly, my problem with it all is we all have different opinions on it so why cant some just drop it and move on. You can say what you want about Peta and other organizations but people are going to believe what they want to believe.


The conversation was posted in a discussion forum. If no one discussed anything there would be no need for the horse forum. 

I don't that anyone is beating a dead horse. :lol:
But it would appear that the OP has taken his/her ball and gone home because people don't agree with them.


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## nvr2many (Jan 18, 2011)

^^^^^^^^^ And personally it bothers me when people do this! They come on here to start a conversation and when it does not go their way they pick up and leave!!! Gah! There are two other threads with horses that need vet care and can't get a reply there either! I wish they would just finish what they started. Good or bad! We are here trying to help or discuss! That is what a forum is for!


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I don't get it either. I have a wide range of friends, with differing opinions on all sorts of issues. My world would be rather small, and boring if I only sought out those who agreed with me.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Well lawmakers just decided not to open the New Mexico plant. 

New Mexico lawmakers reject proposal for horse slaughter | www.kfoxtv.com


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## nvr2many (Jan 18, 2011)

WOW! Just WOW!


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Cherie said:


> Ranchers are slaughtering cattle they intended to save for breeding because they cannot afford to find feed for them. The cattle herd in the US is smaller than it has been since they started keeping records. Within 2-3 years, beef will be double in price or more. Where do think the feed will come from for millions of 'useless horses'.
> 
> What would YOU do with them all today?


Exactly. (I think 1941 was the last time cattle numbers were this low)

You _very_ rarely hear of starved, neglected cows.


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

Speed Racer said:


> If that's what you believe, then why are _you_ posting on the thread?
> 
> If you're anti horse slaughter, then you need to have a solution for all the unwanted horses. One that's _not_ predicated on people 'being responsible', or some pie in the sky ideal that there are homes for every horse, because the reality is there _aren't_. Or is it just easier to shriek, wail, and rend your garments about the solution we DO have as cruel and inhumane, instead of working toward something that will at least be a compromise that everyone can deal with?
> 
> Until the antis and pros can work together without expecting someone other than themselves to do the dirty work, slaughter will remain the only _viable_ option for unwanted horses.


Your right there needs to be a good meduim. I dont have all the answers though and I wish I did. I ment that this is beating a dead horse on both ends we can disagree to agree until we are blue in the face but it doesnt make things change.


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

AlexS said:


> The conversation was posted in a discussion forum. If no one discussed anything there would be no need for the horse forum.
> 
> I don't that anyone is beating a dead horse. :lol:
> But it would appear that the OP has taken his/her ball and gone home because people don't agree with them.


 Yes and its ashame because there are alot of great people on here even if you dont agree on one thing. 

LOL no I like it here im not leaving XP 

I dont mind a friendly discustion at all but I find that the OP is pretty set on her ways and it just because a match of im right your wrong get over it. In which IMO is not a discution. Maybe im just a hippy


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## horsecrazygirl (Apr 23, 2012)

What about the millions of cats and dogs gassed to death every year because no one wanted them? I think the reason why this struck a nerve in you because it is horses. I doubt you would say the same thing about cattle who go through the same thing except at times even in more horrible conditions the the horses. I was very much against horse sluaghter in the beginning, but the more i read on the forum the more i realized just how necessary this is. Its a evil that we have to do to. Starving to death is 10 times more painful then a bolt to the head. People never show the good of any situation. They always show the worst of it. I suggest you read some of the other threads on this subject because it might open your eyes to many other thing you have missed about this whole situation.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

horsecrazygirl said:


> I doubt you would say the same thing about cattle who go through the same thing except at times even in more horrible conditions [than] the horses.


I am curious as to what you base this statement on.


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## RockyTrails (Jan 28, 2013)

goneriding said:


> This subject has been beat to death...Humans are the fault of excess horses, so what are the answers? I hope I am never in a position to have to send mine to slaughter. I understand the need though. I do believe if slaughter is banned in the US, it should be truly banned by not allowing horses to be exported to slaughter elsewhere. By banning slaughter, eventually will it cause people to think twice about breeding/owning horses due to them not having an out? I would think so but I am probably wrong, humans can be selfish. Am I pro slaughter? I am on the fence with it and all slaughter should be regulated.
> 
> Sometimes I think certain humans should be regulated....:shock:



I agree with you "Goneriding"

I am on the fence too. I hate that there is a need for slaughter houses. However I agree that we need to reopen American slaughter houses so the transport distance is shorter and so we can regulate it and take the business from Mexico... I hate Mexican slaughter houses they sever the spinal cord in the neck and skin and dismember the living horse.. Ever hear a horse screaming it sucks not just one horse but dozens at one time. Canada uses the same Captive bolt gun used on cattle the bolt is not accurate enough to target the right part of brain when held in hand on horses because the kill chute does not immobilize the head. Anti slaughter advocates need to design better kill chutes or some type of mask shroud that fits on forehead to properly locate the bolt to keep the horse down a large percentage of the horses have to be hit with bolt gun 2 or more times because they regain conciousness before bleeding them. 

Then there is the medication aspect The EU has put a ban on all American horsemeat until the USDA will make guarantees that the meat is not chemically tainted. So until further notice Mexican and Canadian Borders are closed to American Horses. So having the American Slaughter facilities open again the USDA can have horses humanely kept in storage lots to allow medications to leave systems. And run sick or injured horses thru pet food and carnivore slaughter processes. Plus we need to choose a sacrificial Horse breed to be raised only as a food horse and direct Backyard breeder foals into these feedlots as well so food sourced Horses are as drug free as possible. 

So I consider Horse slaughter a necessary evil that I wish was not necessary.

Do not even bring up our wild horses being slaughtered to make room for the large welfare ranchers to graze their cattle at taxpayer expense on the land that belongs to the wild horses That I am against 100%. The ranchers leasing the open range supply less than 10% of the beef that hits our dinner tables. Make the big ranchers buy their grazing land the way the real cattle ranchers do.:evil:


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

RockyTrails said:


> Do not even bring up our wild horses being slaughtered to make room for the large welfare ranchers to graze their cattle at taxpayer expense on the land that belongs to the wild horses That I am against 100%. The ranchers leasing the open range supply less than 10% of the beef that hits our dinner tables. Make the big ranchers buy their grazing land the way the real cattle ranchers do.:evil:


Well, golly, you did bring up that old tidbit of misinformation.

Horses and cattle are two herbivores that differ in many ways. They affect range in different ways. The regulations governing the time cattle can be on range, the parts of the range that can be grazed, and what responsibilities the rancher has to the lease holder and the leased ground are quite strict. The six to ten weeks a year that cattle can be on leased ground, whether it be national grassland, forest service, BLM, state, whatever, does not negatively impact the numbers of feral horses. 

If all cattle were to disappear from the U.S. tomorrow, there would not be enough grasses and water to sustain uncontrolled growth of feral horses.


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## sandy2u1 (May 7, 2008)

One of the things I find disturbing is the folks that think no horse should be slaughtered under any circumstance. Sadly I see so many rescues that are full of horses that nobody in their right mind would adopt. That is the 'save all horses' attitude that has added in a big way to our horse problem. 

I have a friend that runs a licensed rescue. I went to her first when I decided I wanted to purchase another horse. She is slam full of horses that are permanently lame, completely debilitated in some way or completely untrained or that acted like it, anyway. If she would send her whole heard to slaughter, then she could actually help some good horses that just need a second chance. She is full, but can't move horses because nobody wants those kind of horses and of course, she can't take in any that are adoptable. I wonder how many decent horses she will have to turn down and have go to slaughter for her unadoptable herd. And she is funded by donations. Personally, I think that is unacceptable of a publicly funded rescue.

That, of course, isn't all of the problem, but it is a point I think worth mentioning.


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## RockyTrails (Jan 28, 2013)

It is both an old and a current tidbit of fact. However with all fact there is usually some misinformation mixed into it too.

Good theory aside from the fact that Wild horses even domestic horses are Nomadic and are usually on the move grazing so they do not detrimentally impact the grasses, most wild horse bands will travel up to 50 miles in a day grazing. Where cattle usually tend to stay in one area as long as the grass lasts except to go to water. 

I do agree That the amount of time the cattle are on the lease does not affect the numbers of wild horses. The BLM and various Agriculture departments are what affect the band numbers. By rounding them up and storing them or selling them to Tom Davis and others like him. 
Believe it or not most Animal species are self sustaining and self regulating on herd and band sizes without human intervention. Horses have roamed this country for centuries without overcrowding or over grazing. If a band becomes to large for conditions it will split up going different directions establishing a new band in a new location. And by Carnivore predation.
I would not mind the graze permits if done lottery style so the smaller ranchers could participate in and benefit from it also, but it is a game only the rich hobby ranchers can afford. Instead the majority of actual beef production ranches have to run their cattle on the land they own. And BLM would run the horse bands into another section of land while the graze is going on.

Let me guess you also believe that wolves prey on cattle so we need to continue eradicating the wolf population? 
The only cattle they will eat are young, injured or sick, therefore needing to be removed from the herd anyway


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## RockyTrails (Jan 28, 2013)

I agree with you Sandy. Also most rescues also house very old pasture companions. that usually require medications to keep going that most people will not adopt.


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## DRichmond (Mar 13, 2012)

Pro horse slaughter propaganda - follow the money:

Horse Slaughter: Revealing The Truth, Part Five - The Money Trail | Habitat For Horses | Horse Rescue | Adopt a Horse


Facts:

Veterinarians For Equine Welfare website:

Welcome : Veterinarians for Equine Welfare


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## RockyTrails (Jan 28, 2013)

DRichmond said:


> Pro horse slaughter propaganda - follow the money:
> 
> Horse Slaughter: Revealing The Truth, Part Five - The Money Trail | Habitat For Horses | Horse Rescue | Adopt a Horse
> 
> ...



Thank you for posting these links.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

RockyTrails said:


> It is both an old and a current tidbit of fact. However with all fact there is usually some misinformation mixed into it too.
> 
> Good theory aside from the fact that Wild horses even domestic horses are Nomadic and are usually on the move grazing so they do not detrimentally impact the grasses, most wild horse bands will travel up to 50 miles in a day grazing. Where cattle usually tend to stay in one area as long as the grass lasts except to go to water.
> 
> ...


I agree they are self sustaining and self regulating, but the "pretty pony" club members don't like the way nature does this. Then there are the supporters of wildlife that are native to the West. Those people hate the "pretty pony" club and want the horse numbers managed tightly. They fight for the interest of their favored animal, plant, or ecosystem.

Oh, a wolves will attack cattle. My problem with the non-native species that was introduced, is two-fold. First, we already had wolves. Indigenous wolves. Apparently there were enough of them for the tourists to easily see, but they were here and doing just fine. Second, the non-native Canadian Greys are like a weed in an otherwise homogenous, productive field and will push the native wolves out by eliminating them.

Young cattle need to be removed from the herd? Injured cattle cannot be treated? Old cattle should be eaten alive? You are not good at animal husbandry.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Well, I waded through almost all of the 'information' on the 'Follow the money ' article and went through the website for Veterinarians that are against slaughter. [I had seen it before.]

The first article was almost ALL misinformation and outright lies. It took a little information and twisted it completely around into a complete rant of false information.

I would like to know how many of the Vets in this 'anti-slaughter organization' are predominantly small animal Vets and how many are large animal vets practicing in the country and rural areas. I do not know one single large animal Vet that thinks slaughter is not needed for the welfare of unwanted horses. They are the ones that see all of the neglect horses suffer since they lost their value. The loss of value is because the bottom (or set-in) value went to almost nothing. Just like cattle, horses that have a value are much better fed and cared for. 

The ideas put forth in this thread about 'big ranches' and mustangs and cattle grazing are ALL 'misinformation' from people that do not know how any of the western grazing land or permits work. Let me put forth some FACTS. I have lived on a ranch that bordered BLM ground and am intimately familiar with how grazing permits work. I also 'ran' wild horses back in the 60s. Several of us caught mustangs every summer. I broke many of them back then and know how they lived and grazed first hand. 

1) Much of the west is a 'checkerboard' of privately owned land and land owned by the US Government, States, School land, RR land and Tribal land. None of it is fenced (open range) and much of the 'non-private' land is in 1 section (640 acres) parcels. These are the lands that are leased mixed in between privately owned land. So, there is no way to lease it to anyone other than the land owner that owns all of the surrounding land.

2) Most of the improvements have been made by the land owners and have been put on their 'deeded land', obviously. These improvement are mostly related to water. So, all of the 'tanks' or 'ponds' have been built on ranchers' land. All of the water wells have been dug and windmills set and maintained by the ranchers.

3) Most of the water used by, not only the livestock but by the feral horses and wildlife during dry times (most of the last 10 years) is water put in and supplied by and maintained by the ranchers on their privately owned land. They are the ones supplying the wildlife and horses with water.

4) In times of severe drought when tanks dry up and water has to be hauled, it is the ranchers that pump it and haul it.

5) Anyone that thinks horses are 'nomadic' and wander large areas only know half of the story. They keep returning to one water source. They completely destroy all edible vegetation in increasingly larger circles around their water source. They make trails that wash out when there are rains (usually cloudbursts), they also destroy ALL edible vegetation on the ranchers' land near the water sources. As said before, ranchers only turn out on these lands (that many times includes their private property) for part of the year. The horses are there ALL of the time. If a horse has to travel 50 miles, it is because there is nothing edible for 25 miles from the tank they are drinking from. When they travel that far, they usually only go to water every other day. They are usually gathered before it gets that bad because young foals cannot survive that routine for very long.


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## peppersgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

wild horses self regulating.. what a CROCK. 

I grew up in Northern Nevada and enjoyed having the wild horses in my back yard-Hell there was a herd that we could even hand feed (illegal I KNOW).. BUT to say they self regulate is false.. their herd numbers DOUBLE every four years.. and I cant tell you how many herds we had just in the ranges between dayton, virginia city and reno.. they have no natural predators (aside from a lion maybe getting a sick one every now and again), or one would get hit by a car every so often..NOT ENOUGH TO EVEN PUT A DENT in the numbers surrounding my area..

they had to do a few round ups a year to control the numbers..


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

"Wild" horses are nomadic? Hmmm, how many times have I drove down hwy 50 and seen the same bunch of FERAL horses standing in the same spot. For decades before the government got involved the ranchers were the ones controlling the feral horse population. They are no longer "wild" mustangs but rather feral domesticated saddle horses with the many years of the horses being caught, culled, young horses pulled off for saddle horses and a domesticated stallion turned back out with the mares. Also from people turning horses loose that they did not want or had a use for.

Also a little tidbit about grazing leases/permits...
For the ground that is not checkerboarded like Cherie described but strictly govt. Land, the govt. No longer "creates" new leases/permits. When ranches get them they don't let them go. Most have been with a family or ranch for generations. Just not any "rich rancher" can go walking into the BLM office and buy a permit.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Does anyone else find it strange that almost all of the 'information' on this subject coming from the anti-slaughter people comes from 'city people' that have no idea how any of this really works? It all becomes propaganda instead of facts and is put out to sway opinion and demonize horse breeders, trainers and Vets, not relate facts.

The problem is that they outnumber the real ranchers and horsemen about 20 - 1 so they are swaying public opinion in the direction of more city people. FACTS would speak for themselves, but they are not interested in FACTS. They have an agenda. Their REAL agenda is to completely do away with animal use, ownership and, of course, all breeding. Wayne Pascal has been recorded saying that they (the animal rights nuts) think they can do away with all companion animals and animal use (including saddle horses for recreational use) within one generation. That is their agenda and all the little 'pony lovers' play into their agenda by demonizing animal use that has to contain a workable way to sell unwanted horses. 

I often use this analogy: What would happen if someone decided that salvage yards for cars and trucks were ugly and bad and they all had to be closed tomorrow?

Great -- the ugly salvage yard are gone. Of course, yard owners would lose everything and all their workers would all have to be fired.

BUT, unless we quit manufacturing and driving cars and trucks, there are still going to be just as many 'junk vehicles' as there were when the salvage yards were open. They just do not have anywhere to go or anyone to sell them to. Now, junk cars have no value, but they are still sitting around -- more of them accumulate every day. They just cannot be sold or used. Pretty soon, people have junk cars sitting everywhere. Every back yard has one or two. People don't want them sitting around so they pull the plates off and drag them to some park or back street and abandon them. They can't sell them any more. No one wants to pick them up because that costs money and, now, they are not worth anything. Soon there are abandoned cars everywhere but there are no ugly salvage yards or crushers around anywhere because they were all shut down.

Let's, put 'unwanted horses' in the place of junk cars. Junk cars at least do not starve and they do not continue to eat or cost money. They are just useless and ugly. We already have this situation in many places where there are no auctions and it is too far to haul them. They are already being abandoned by the thousands. A starving horse is not a junk car, but removing any place for them to go where they maintain some value just results in more starvation and neglect. 

THINK about it. What do YOU want to happen to all of the 'junked horses' that need to eat? I keep waiting for the answer to this, but I never get one.


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

To me, what doesn't make sense is that everyone is against horse slaughter but they aren't against eating cows, chickens, and other animals.

Personally I'm for slaughter. When its done right that is. 

But I, myself, have never been to a slaughter plant (with horses) and I've only seen the videos that PETA or some other animal-rights activist program put up there. 

If people drew a line from the left ear to the right eye and the left eye to the right ear and shot in the middle of the 'X' then it would kill them immediately, which a lot of horse people already know. If people did that all the time then I wouldn't have a problem with it.


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## FaydesMom (Mar 25, 2012)

DRichmond said:


> Pro horse slaughter *propaganda* - follow the money:
> 
> Horse Slaughter: Revealing The Truth, Part Five - The Money Trail | Habitat For Horses | Horse Rescue | Adopt a Horse
> 
> ...



Well, at least you called it what it truly is, *propaganda*. There is not one shred of truth in any of that garbage, just a bunch of ill informed people.


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## DRichmond (Mar 13, 2012)

Here are more examples of factual documentation, research, investigations and evidence regarding the horse slaughter industry:

Animals Angels - North America

Straight from the Horse's Heart has well documented articles and research contained on his website, along with Steven Long with Horseback Magazine.

2010 – Chambers of Carnage – Investigation of Bouvry Exports and Richelieu Meats | Canadian Horse Defence Coalition

Those who refute the documented evidence regarding horse slaughter abuses, please counter your arguments with factual documentation and evidence in support of your arguments. 

Please note that I do not support HSUS, PETA, ASPCA and the many other "nonprofits" which are what I consider to be nothing but animal welfare hustlers, racketeers, and fear or "crisis" brokers that use authentic and well documented equine and other animal cruelty evidence for their own dark agendas.


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## DRichmond (Mar 13, 2012)

Even Wikipedia has signed on to the disinformation campaign about horse meat and horse slaughter. Here is another article at Forbes.com which I hope will shed additional light on the subject: 

Vickery Eckhoff: Five Reasons Why Burger King's Horse Meat Scandal Could Happen Here


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## peppersgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

What I would love to know is how much un-useable footage they have? How many hours and different locations do they have to video tape before they get something cruel to show the masses? Its well documented that the HSUS waited MONTHS before releasing that footage of the slaughter plant in Chico, CA abusing its cattle... MONTHS..While I do think its great that we have people in these places exposing actual cruel events (kudos to that)- BUT They don't happen that often because it can and DOES get plants fined so heavily that they close.. I find it appaulling that these organisations wait (while god knows how many animals are abused by these offenders) to release footage to further their agenda.. that is not Love for the suffering animals. That's them trying to make money.. Like said in a previous post these a-holes don't help shelters out..

I have said it before, and I will say it again..slaughter isn't pretty..It will never be pretty- blood is shed, an animal dies. Not every animal is killed immediatly unfortanetly (when this happens its dealt with IMMEDIATLY- because its so dangerous!), but I can garantee its a lot quicker that starving to death in someones back yard, or dying of infection because someone cant afford a vet..


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## nvr2many (Jan 18, 2011)

Cherie said:


> Wayne Pascal has been recorded saying that they (the animal rights nuts) think they can *do away with all companion animals and animal use (including saddle horses for recreational use)* within one generation. That is their agenda and all the little 'pony lovers' play into their agenda by demonizing animal use that has to contain a workable way to sell unwanted horses.


Oh, just shoot me now!!! Someone was not loved as a child! Maybe he never got the pony he always wanted and he is taking it out on the rest of us. :-(


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

How to end horse slaugher --- dont let your horse get old , lame, or ever sell it. Do not ever breed a horse. Take in all the unwanted, old , sick, lame, crazed horses yourself. Do not lose your job , have your hours cut , or not be able to keep up with increasing price of hay , farrier, Vet bills ( sorry VEts, but you have to increase to pay for fuel, products, rent ) 
Then when you do all this, get on your pretty little soap box and tell us how cruel it is to be slaughtered (which it is) but not as cruel as slow painful death of starvation . ANd for the people who make this Idiotic rules and try to sway legsilatures, they get these passed because if you do not voice your opion to your Legislator and say Stop this assanine ridiculous law , it will get passed.


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## DRichmond (Mar 13, 2012)

peppersgirl, cases of equine starvation and neglect are not very common, that is one of the well-oiled "crisis" propaganda hooks used by proponents of horse slaughter which has been discredited with documented evidence for years, yet that "argument" continues to be fueled by media paid to serve political and corporate interests for horse slaughter proponents, and it's a scratched and skipping broken record that never stops playing. 

If you live in a rural area, chances are extremely good if you visited every farm and horse owner in your county you would find extremely few emaciated and neglected horses, or none at all. They are the exception, not the rule. You won't see articles about all of those well cared for horses in your county because good news doesn't sell as well as bad news. 

Granted, economic debacles in recent years and drought conditions in varying parts of the U.S. have been most unfortunate for many livestock owners, but fear brokers are paid to glean whatever they can from these incidents to pad their pockets and sway public opinion. It's nothing new.


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## peppersgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

DRichmond said:


> peppersgirl, cases of equine starvation and neglect are not very common, that is one of the well-oiled "crisis" propaganda hooks used by proponents of horse slaughter which has been discredited with documented evidence for years, yet that "argument" continues to be fueled by media paid to serve political and corporate interests for horse slaughter proponents, and it's a scratched and skipping broken record that never stops playing.
> 
> If you live in a rural area, chances are extremely good if you visited every farm and horse owner in your county you would find extremely few emaciated and neglected horses, or none at all. They are the exception, not the rule. You won't see articles about all of those well cared for horses in your county because good news doesn't sell as well as bad news.
> 
> Granted, economic debacles in recent years and drought conditions in varying parts of the U.S. have been most unfortunate for many livestock owners, but fear brokers are paid to glean whatever they can from these incidents to pad their pockets and sway public opinion. It's nothing new.



wow, It is pretty obvious you haven't been to any rural horse auctions in the last few years, or even bothered to cruise craigslist... Now don't get me wrong do I think most country people starve their horses? NO.. but there is A LOT of it going on. A LOT.. The last few times I went to watch and auction better than 60% of the horses were at least mildly underweight... And I come across alot of underweight horses on craigslist...or people begging for hay for the umpteen horses they have but cant afford to feed..

When horses were worth .80 cents a pound to the meat packer, meth heads, and people who think horses are big dogs thought twice about just bringing one home.. or 5..


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Where were the anti slaughter people at when livestock auctions have had to keep 24 hour security to keep from horses being dumped in their pens or tied to the fence?
I know of people and ranches that have turned unwanted horses loose. 
Anyone who thinks this crap doesn't happen lives in Fantasy Land.

Horses are livestock like cattle, the horse industry should be treated as such, it would eliminate a lot of issues.


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## LeahKathleen (Mar 5, 2009)

Cherie said:


> All any videos have ever done for me is to convince me that we need well-run, inspected equine processing facilities no farther than 500 miles apart. They should all have feedlots set up close by and the feeding and care and processing all need to be monitored by responsible people (not people with an agenda).
> 
> For all the completely anti-slaughter people, I ask the same thing.
> 
> ...


I could not agree more. Until someone can propose a better idea (other than regulating breeding, which I don't see happening), I am and will be pro-slaughter. 

Those who are anti-slaughter believe themselves to be enlightened to the horrors, but perhaps they ought to ask themselves how those horses ended up there. Do you think it's because someone who hates horses decided to open up a kill facility? Of course not. It's because there are too many unwanted horses.

The fact is, unwanted horses are not going anywhere any time soon.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

DRichmond said:


> peppersgirl, cases of equine starvation and neglect are not very common, that is one of the well-oiled "crisis" propaganda hooks used by proponents of horse slaughter which has been discredited with documented evidence for years, yet that "argument" continues to be fueled by media paid to serve political and corporate interests for horse slaughter proponents, and it's a scratched and skipping broken record that never stops playing.


You keep talking about studies, and documented evidence. What about the people here that live in these situations and see it first hand? Look at how is funding the studies. I know _exactly _what peppergirl is talking about, just two weeks ago I have had to drive back and forth to Carson City through her area to register hay/cattle trucks and pay IFTA. I see those horses standing along side the road between Silver Springs and Stage Coach EVERYTIME.

Cherie and boots have a ranching background in these parts, I believe, along with myself and have seen this stuff first hand. (Dont mean to speak for anyone else, so correct me)

DRichmond I would be very curious as where you live....


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## DRichmond (Mar 13, 2012)

Peppersgirl, I've attended rural auctions for years and am very familiar with how they operate. You appear to agree that auctions are not representative of any county's overall equine population and the quality of care those equine receive. 

To Cowchick77, there have been spotted media reports of horses being dumped in pastures and at auction yards and tied to fences, and turned loose, but it is not an "epidemic," and never has been. It's mostly media spin to take a few isolated incidents and make theatrics of it. Yes, there is no doubt there are difficult times economically for many, and drought and subsequent hay shortages have created hardship. I am not denying that. 

It is my opinion that horse slaughter has done far more to harm the horse industry than help it sustain itself and profit in the long term. If horse slaughter were banned, it would necessitate sane breeding practices as well as provide thousands and thousands of businesses with steady work to keep those horses healthy throughout their lives: vets, farriers, hay and grain suppliers, tack stores and retail stores would be so busy they couldn't keep up. The value of horses would stabilize as well as long as some breeders didn't saturate the market and ruin the livelihoods of others in so doing. That's where the breeding associations can help stabilize their own industry. Essentially it involves trading the disposable short-term gains that has been the backbone of horse slaughter for long term stable and sustainable practices to keep the industry healthy. That is why from the pro horse slaughter horse industry perspective I do not understand why they are basically sinking their own ship, along with everyone else's.

You asked what locale I am in: I live in the Pacific Northwest.


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

DRichmond said:


> If you live in a rural area, chances are extremely good if you visited every farm and horse owner in your county you would find extremely few emaciated and neglected horses, or none at all. They are the exception, not the rule. You won't see articles about all of those well cared for horses in your county because good news doesn't sell as well as bad news.


Really? You sure about that? I live in a rural area. Every day on my way to work I drive by no less than TEN horses that are what I would call emaciated and neglected. This is just on my way to work alone not anywhere near driving the county. They aren't just lean. They are count the ribs, see the hip bones sticking out, sickly looking horses. Heck there's one that lives right next door to me that I've made a call on several times. The rescues here are BRIMMING with unwanted horses. In fact, when hubby was looking for his horse a guy had him come see some Paso Fino's a lady was trying to get rid of. Know what they ate daily? Acorns.

I must be imagining it all.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

DRichmond said:


> It is my opinion that horse slaughter has done far more to harm the horse industry than help it sustain itself and profit in the long term. If horse slaughter were banned, it would necessitate sane breeding practices as well as provide thousands and thousands of businesses with steady work to keep those horses healthy throughout their lives: vets, farriers, hay and grain suppliers, tack stores and retail stores would be so busy they couldn't keep up. The value of horses would stabilize as well as long as some breeders didn't saturate the market and ruin the livelihoods of others in so doing. That's where the breeding associations can help stabilize their own industry. Essentially it involves trading the disposable short-term gains that has been the backbone of horse slaughter for long term stable and sustainable practices to keep the industry healthy. That is why from the pro horse slaughter horse industry perspective I do not understand why they are basically sinking their own ship, along with everyone else's.


It would only provide businesses work if everyone could afford it AND be responsible owners. 

I still don't see how banning slaughter will eliminate the present unwanted horses now. 

Like I said before, slaughter is not the problem. It is the end result. The problem is overbreeding. Until there are regulations on breeding, ending PMU farms, and especially controlling back yard breeding, the market will stay saturated. Sadly, until that changes, slaughter is a necessity or many would have to be euthanized each year, unhealthy or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DRichmond (Mar 13, 2012)

BBBCrone, I don't know how many horses are in your particular county but if you live in a rural area there are probably several thousand. I am not negating your own personal experience, nor anyone else's personal experience when they witness neglect incidents. 

A few years ago I began a local hay bank and only animal control was authorized to use the funds which went directly to a local feed store. It was a help to several families and it kept their anonymity. Sometimes churches are amenable to helping organize a resource. I don't know if you've approached any of the horse owners, I realize some are amenable and some aren't, but the trick is in the approach.


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

*sighs and rubs face* ... I think maybe I am just way too tired for this after a long day at work. So I'll end it with this.

Yes this particular county is pretty large. And several thousand I am sure is a decent enough guess. But seeing as my husband and I have taken over a year to find TWO horses in decent enough shape to purchase, I think it's fair to say we've pretty much been all OVER this county and neighboring ones too.

But kudos to you on the hay bank idea you did.


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## DRichmond (Mar 13, 2012)

If there were a ban, the 1% of the horse population of unwanted horses can be absorbed by the populace, that is not an overwhelming number. However, since slaughter hasn't been banned, I would say that breeders who want to revive their businesses fire their centralized national breeding association and form more local, independently owned and operated chapters, form their own events, database, programs, events, advertising, etc., and use the registration fees they generate to revive their operations at a more local level. Members can operate as a co-op and share revenue as well as set guidelines on breeding policy which are agreed upon to be sustainable and reasonable, and make that agreement a prerequisite of membership.


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## paintgirl96 (Oct 6, 2012)

Slaughter of today isn't humane. Not at all. If they want all of us true horse lovers to stop complaining about how "inhumane" & "disgusting" horse slaughter is, they should find a easier way to do it. Why can't they take a few extra time to just euthanize each horse, so they die peacefully? Not get stunned & then strung up like some wild beast.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

I think that if the people who believe that slaughter should be banned actually sat and thought of ways in which to make slaughter a completely unneeded convention, then we could stop having this "conversation".

However, it is clear that many anti-slaughter people are stubborn to the point of being completely illogical. The 1 percent of unwanted horses would be absorbed by the population? Really?

Do we live in the same nation? This is the same place where thousands of unwanted cats and dogs are likely euthanized daily because so many owners want JUST ONE LITTER out of patches, and don't worry about Griselda being outside, she's not in heat...right? 

*sigh*

If we can't even save our beloved cats and dogs, what makes you think that people can/will absorb the cost of a horse? With the economy being in the massive PIT it is, who all do you think could save those horses? How many people meet the qualifications even set forth by members of this board? (Read other threads...must have no small children, thousands in the bank for medical care, just for the HORSE, must have ....on and on and on). Who will care for all these animals when a good large chunk of Americans can barely take care of themselves?

Again, I will ask: Why are you so against horse slaughter? Is it because they are horses? Do cows not deserve the same consideration? I hear they are quite intelligent and make great pets. So why not save all the cows too?


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## BornToRun (Sep 18, 2011)

paintgirl96 said:


> Slaughter of today isn't humane. Not at all. If they want all of us true horse lovers to stop complaining about how "inhumane" & "disgusting" horse slaughter is, they should find a easier way to do it.* Why can't they take a few extra time to just euthanize each horse, so they die peacefully? Not get stunned & then strung up like some wild beast.*


Because it costs money to euthanize and dispose of a body, it's quite pricey when it all adds up. In some parts of the world you aren't even allowed to bury them. That's why not everyone euthanizes. If you want to euthanize your horse when the time comes, then have at, but not every single horse in the world can be euthanized and buried.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

paintgirl96 said:


> Slaughter of today isn't humane. Not at all. If they want all of us true horse lovers to stop complaining about how "inhumane" & "disgusting" horse slaughter is, they should find a easier way to do it. Why can't they take a few extra time to just euthanize each horse, so they die peacefully? Not get stunned & then strung up like some wild beast.


Besides what BornToRun said. Slaughter isn't just about killing the horses. It is getting the meat. If you euthanize them, you are putting a drug in the body. Drugs in the body means tainted meat or unusable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

DRichmond - 1%? Be absorbed? If that is it, why aren't they being absorbed WITH slaughter? Why are rescues full and having to turn away horses WITH slaughter? Why are we having a hard time finding people to take in 150 horses that were being starved in North Dakota? They can be just absorbed, right? Why are tons of horses being sold on craigslist for next to nothing and look like crap?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

DRichmond said:


> To Cowchick77, there have been spotted media reports of horses being dumped in pastures and at auction yards and tied to fences, and turned loose, *but it is not an "epidemic," and never has been.* It's mostly media spin to take a few isolated incidents and make theatrics of it. Yes, there is no doubt there are difficult times economically for many, and drought and subsequent hay shortages have created hardship. I am not denying that.


It's probably only an *epidemic* when they get dumped on your property. You generally find them struggling to stand after they've been in some pasture that has had no water for a month or more and you haven't ridden it for weeks because... nothing should be in there. Some times you find them laying on the ground with their eyes grazed, deep in shock because they weren't tough enough to fight off the coyotes or buzzards that are eating them alive. The buzzards draw your attention not just circling but flying up and down as they fought over the poor live horse they were eating on. At my place in the southeast part of the state, the abandoned horses seem to come in waves. Up in the north there are fewer (I'm several hours and a lot of two lane highway from towns). Ranchers closer to the interstates get to deal with those. The rez north of my nearest town gets most of the nearest city's dumped horses. The Crow, pretty good horsemen as a group, have no compunction against feeding their dogs, chickens and whatever, with these dumped horses. They tend to be a practical people, in general.

Occasionally, we get some that aren't lame, just underweight and old. Or ugly/ill-conformed. Lots of ugly ones seems to get dumped. They are spooky and out of shape and generally get hurt pretty quick. 

I shoot these poor horses. What a sad end to be dumped like that. And what a waste. They could have fed a loved dog, an admired zoo carnivore, or they can just be stuck being used as trap bait by me, or offered to the local carnivores as part of the circle of life. Might have even ended up in a can as a cheap source of protein to supplement the diet of some starving person. The number of starving people in this world is "epidemic" in my book.

There are many things worse than death by captive bolt and having the meat used to sustain the lives of others. Many rural horse lovers have seen those "worse things."


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

DRichmond said:


> To Cowchick77, there have been spotted media reports of horses being dumped in pastures and at auction yards and tied to fences, and turned loose, but it is not an "epidemic," and never has been. It's mostly media spin to take a few isolated incidents and make theatrics of it. Yes, there is no doubt there are difficult times economically for many, and drought and subsequent hay shortages have created hardship. I am not denying that.


My point above was that I am not getting information from the internet or media reports. I was working for two horse auctions when the horse market really dipped. I also went to a dozen more in a couple other neighboring states. I seen the horses being dumped. I am not trying to make it into a crisis, I am just saying that there is an obvious need to slaughter. You don't see skinny cattle dumped at sale yards.


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## cattleco (Feb 9, 2013)

*horse slaughter*

the problem in the near term is not over-breeding....that has been drastically reduced by all breeds for 4 years......the problem is we have no respectable floor price on our horses. DO away with the salvage value on steel and see what your truck dealer gives you on a trade in???? DUH!


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## JeniTex (Feb 7, 2013)

DRichmond said:


> peppersgirl, cases of equine starvation and neglect are not very common,


I stopped reading right there.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

cattleco said:


> the problem in the near term is not over-breeding....that has been drastically reduced by all breeds for 4 years......the problem is we have no respectable floor price on our horses. DO away with the salvage value on steel and see what your truck dealer gives you on a trade in???? DUH!


Even if breeding has been reduced the past FEW years, there is still an overpopulation and will be for roughly 30 years. Overbreeding caused overpopulation which gives us unwanted horses. Unwanted horses reduces the market value. Reducing breeding will help in the long run but until the population is reduced, the value won't get better. So should we let them die from natural causes (takes a long time), euthanize (too costly), or send them to slaughter?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

I am on the fence. And let me go further by saying I don't believe slaughter of anything and humane go together. Are there methods designed to be less cruel and inhumane? Possibly. Do I think inhumane treatment goes on in even "humane" slaughter plants? Absolutely.

My spousal unit was in PA several months ago, on toll road and stopped at rest center/truck stop where he noticed a trailer full of horses that he figured were bound for Canada. 

He came back by there and stopped 3 days later and noticed the exact same trailer, in the exact same place still full of horses. He saw a woman with a horse trailer who was hauling her horses with her husband, went over and asked her if she knew who to call to check on the horses, she went over, pulled out her cell and started taking pictures. There were 3 horses at least, that had died in the trailer. No food, no water.

Spousal also called for law enforcement while woman was taking pictures, HP came, turns out driver had parked and gone home, leaving horses to die.

As for the "jobs lost"? Considering that the pork plants around here hire at least 50% or higher in legal and illegal immigrants for the jobs? I doubt that any processing plant would net Americans that many jobs. Latest thing that the pork processing plant is sending to KC for is Burmese, or Myanmar people. Out of the jobs that they promised to Missourians? Maybe 30% or less are filled by them, as they have imported Sudanese, Ethiopian, all sorts of Hispanics, and are fast filling up with Asians. While the Americans take a hit in the tax incentives used to get company to settle there in St. Joe, and the taxpayers are taking a hit through the schools, hospitals, and any programs these immigrants of either status are utilizing. 

And as for taxes paid by the illegals? During one of the several murder trials that involved illegals working at the plant? It was brought out that both victim and killer were both using fake ID, and claiming 7 or more kids, so not paying any taxes. Of course, if the SSN they were using belongs to a living American, they will get to explain to IRS one day that they didn't work in St. Joe.

I also have a problem with all of the touchy feely "be your horsey's friend and get horse to trust you" and then letting it go to slaughter. Maybe the clinicians can start teaching how to get your horse desensitized to being crowded into trailers, left without food and water while they travel hours and hours, and then led into plant to be killed.

Make no mistake, I do not have an answer for the horse overpopulation, and deal with people starving horses every day through ignorance, or just plain meaness. But these are 9 times out of 10 people that have a "stud so they can raise babies" or FOWLS as one wrote on FB....leading me to ask was it chickens or guineas?

They are dumping horses on market that have had no training, are not registered, and are just horses.

I made decision years ago now that if time came I could no longer keep mine, I would have them PTS. They will never stand in a trailer going to their deaths, when they have been such stalwart friends to me.


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## cattleco (Feb 9, 2013)

This is a problem and no solution will satisfy anyone.....we can humanely kill animals and humans! nuff said!


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## JeniTex (Feb 7, 2013)

He came back by there and stopped 3 days later and noticed the exact same trailer, in the exact same place still full of horses. He saw a woman with a horse trailer who was hauling her horses with her husband, went over and asked her if she knew who to call to check on the horses, she went over, pulled out her cell and started taking pictures. There were 3 horses at least, that had died in the trailer. No food, no water.



An extremely horrible situation but one I fear is an unforeseen consequence of well meaning legislation coming out of DC.

*Edit....so I can't quote...lol... my apologies.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

I'm confused – I thought that US horses were just being shipped to Canada or Mexico. If so then how can the lack of slaughter in the US be responsible for all the unwanted horses?


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong....

Canada does not really want our horses. Getting them to Mexico is a tough long ride. And most folks want humane slaughter so they do not want them going to Mexico. Also if I was a killer buyer I don't want to pay the freight to Canada or Mexico there is not enough money in it when the prices of horses here in the US are pretty low.

That's my extremely over simplified answer


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## BornToRun (Sep 18, 2011)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Canada does not really want our horses.


Yep, that's right. Apparently there was a report by the Commission's Health and Consumers Directorate-General stating that the veterinary records of horses are "insufficient" to guarantee health standards relating to the European Union's concerns about United States horses' medication histories.


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## GallopingGuitarist (Jan 8, 2013)

The horse market is bad enough as it is here! We have problems taking care of our own country's horses let alone having them dumped on us from the states. I know out market isn't as bad as down in the states, but it's pretty bad. I haven't seen it this low since the PMU crash and all those horses flooded the market. Back then we bought 3 year old, bred, untrained, mares for $250 each. They were QH/Belgian, and not the best builds. We sold some well registered QH mares two years ago that were broke and they brought $475 at the most (and that was a mare/foal pair). Those mares were bought as yearlings for $700 in 2007. We had a halfway decent market then.


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## BornToRun (Sep 18, 2011)

GG, people are already predicting that it's going to be worse this year. A lot of farmers think that with all the snow we won't have enough hay again.


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## GallopingGuitarist (Jan 8, 2013)

It's going to keep getting worse until we get something figured out to take care of the excess horses. 

Right now, slaughter is pretty much the only answer.


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Here in Ontario the government is shutting down racetracks. I know for a fact that they're shutting down Fort Erie, which is a BIG main track here... They may also be shutting down Flamborough Downs... A LOT of people are gunna be out of jobs, and will have horses they'll have to practically just give a way... A lot of them will be shipped to slaughterhouses in Quebec, especially racehorses


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## BornToRun (Sep 18, 2011)

^ Sarnia is going too. It's going to be really bad because not a lot of people are interested in Standardbreds of the tracks.


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Yeah. Out of everyone I've known, the people who adopt always go for thoroughbreds. I've only met one person who adopted standardbreds...


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## BornToRun (Sep 18, 2011)

I got my mare out, but unfortunately I can't take anymore horses. When I win the lottery I'll take ten of them. I find it really sad that the Standies don't have the same popularity as Thoroughbreds.


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Same :/
And I think it's because a lot of them pace, and also that a number of them do't really have good balance..


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

BornToRun said:


> I got my mare out, but unfortunately I can't take anymore horses. When I win the lottery I'll take ten of them. I find it really sad that the Standies don't have the same popularity as Thoroughbreds.


Hey wait you're in ontario too?


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## BornToRun (Sep 18, 2011)

Nokotaheaven said:


> Hey wait you're in ontario too?


Yep, yep! Just outside of Ottawa.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Nokotaheaven said:


> Here in Ontario the government is shutting down racetracks. I know for a fact that they're shutting down Fort Erie, which is a BIG main track here... They may also be shutting down Flamborough Downs... A LOT of people are gunna be out of jobs, and will have horses they'll have to practically just give a way... A lot of them will be shipped to slaughterhouses in Quebec, especially racehorses



A lot of us would like for you to have concern for your own horse. 

An unknown horse going to slaughter is worrisome. But your own horse, that you could provide for - is far more so. Please put your efforts into the living animal right in front of you.


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## FaydesMom (Mar 25, 2012)

AlexS said:


> A lot of us would like for you to have concern for your own horse.
> 
> An unknown horse going to slaughter is worrisome. But your own horse, that you could provide for - is far more so. Please put your efforts into the living animal right in front of you.


They are not talking about their own horses, they are talking about all the standardbred race horses about to be out of work and will probably end up going to slaughter.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

FaydesMom said:


> They are not talking about their own horses, they are talking about all the standardbred race horses about to be out of work and will probably end up going to slaughter.



I totally get that, but her horse is in dire need, and she won't call a vet, while caring about other horses she doesn't even know.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Much of the country is too far from a border crossing into either Canada or Mexico that the markets have closed and there is no place for horse owners to take them. The long trip costs too much so there are no kill buyers there.

This is particularly so in the SE States. We have had several Alabama, Carolina and Florida loads of horses brought to our local sale because they were broke and absolutely no one would take them -- even for free in the SE states. They were hauled here instead of being turned loose in State Parks. Two of my trail string horses came from Alabama and S. Carolina. Traders brought them here. The local sale barn owner warned them not to bring unbroke or thin horses. They wanted to bring loads of killer horses and the local sale owners asked them not to because he could not guarantee that all of them could be sold and hauled to Mexico.

There have been many horses in that part of the country that have just been abandoned. We know some people in N. Carolina that bought a couple of horses from us a couple of years ago. I was talking to her one evening and she told me that they had just put a hinged pipe with a lock across their cattle guard. The had just shot 6 horses that had been dumped in their pasture. This was the second time that had happened. They came out in the morning (they live back a pretty good distance from the road) and had found the horses in their cattle pasture. Someone had pulled in with a truck and trailer, opened the back door and turned out the very thin horses. Not only that, part of them had snotty noses and one had a huge old cut. They just put out some feed for them to eat and shot them. Then they put a pipe they can lock across their cattle guard and plan to put in a buzzer and speaker. 

We do not see the abandoned horses here that are seen in other parts of the country. We are close enough to Mexico that most horses can be sold at the local sale and will ship to the border. The sale personnel will not accept thin horses with a body score of 1 or 2, weak horses, blind horses or horses that are badly crippled. They turn them away at the chute.

There are a lot of half starved horses close around here. It is not unusual to see 5 or 10 horses in a pasture with a body score of 2 - 3. The rescue in Tulsa is not accepting any more horses because they are full. 

The previous Sheriff used to call me to go out with them to look at horses that had been turned in to their office. I quit going out with them when a Vet was going to open an office here in the county and I had a good way to get out of it. I got tired of going out and looking at emaciated horses. People would tell them that they were feeding them and they were just old. Some of these horses were under 10years old. They were just starved. My husband did not want me doing it any more because people had threatened me thinking I had turned them in. I had gotten to the point I was being called out so many times I told the Sheriff I just could not do it any more. It was not my job. I still get calls from the Sheriff's Office once in a while to ask if I know someone that has been turned in. They will not seize horses any more because they have no money to feed them and the rescues are all full. They just tell people to take them to the sale or make sure they have round bales when they come back and check them. The people usually are broke and just take them to the sale to avoid a citation. Of course, they just get shipped to Mexico.

But then, some people live in a fantasy land where this does not exist.


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

AlexS said:


> A lot of us would like for you to have concern for your own horse.
> 
> An unknown horse going to slaughter is worrisome. But your own horse, that you could provide for - is far more so. Please put your efforts into the living animal right in front of you.


Just FYI.. I am, as I keep telling everyone. I have a HUGE story that's been going on for the past 3-4 years now, if I could tell everyone I would because it would help clear everything up and maybe make people understand better! But as it is, I can't because it's personal. And because of that fact, nobody should be calling ME the bad person. If you want a bad person then you should look at those who .... nevermind.
Just.. "If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all."
I don't even know why I'm letting people on this forum get to me so much... I got people here where I live who know everything my family and I are going through and understand me COMPLETELY... I WISH I could see my horse every day instead of maybe once a month..


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Nokotaheaven said:


> Just FYI.. I am, as I keep telling everyone. I have a HUGE story that's been going on for the past 3-4 years now, if I could tell everyone I would because it would help clear everything up and maybe make people understand better! But as it is, I can't because it's personal. And because of that fact, nobody should be calling ME the bad person. If you want a bad person then you should look at those who .... nevermind.
> Just.. "If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all."
> I don't even know why I'm letting people on this forum get to me so much... I got people here where I live who know everything my family and I are going through and understand me COMPLETELY... I WISH I could see my horse every day instead of maybe once a month..



I am glad that you feel that you are doing well despite your circumstances, that's a great thing. I am a foster parent, I wish that for all my kids. 

But then you ask us to understand something that you won't explain. That's impossible. 

Then there's been something ongoing for the past few years, well heck, how does that affect the horse TODAY? 

It's all excuses, your horse needs a vet, you are refusing to get one. I'm not a vet, but from what you described, I think your horse might have broken a bone. 

I can't imagine a situation where my foster kids wouldn't see a hospital for a broken bone because they had personal issues going on a few years now - how is that relevant? 

It's neglect and abuse. And it's not acceptable.


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