# Bucking only during right-lead canter transition



## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

A few things will be helpful in determining the cause of this problem. First would be to get a video of his movement and you riding. He could be in pain and it's worse on the right lead or your position could be preventing him from picking up this lead well. 

Next would be to take detailed saddle fit pictures in that section of the forum. If the saddle isn't fitting correctly, it will hurt for him to pick up that lead. 

This honestly sounds like a pain problem or a position problem so I can't comment on anything else without video and pictures.


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## Klassic Superstar (Nov 30, 2009)

Sounds like a chiropractor needs to be called out, best of luck


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

This is very likely a comfort issue for the horse. The question is whether it is horse or rider related. 

While comparing this horse's reactions to your riding to another horse's reactions might be helpful, it is important to realize that some horse's are more sensitive than others. Also, some work better despite what the rider does.

A better test would be to have somebody else ride the horse using the same cues and observe the horse's reaction. While this comparison is better than the previous, it is not foolproof. No two riders ride exactly alike. Still, it can provide you with more information for evaluation.

A vet check and/or chiropractic evaluation would probably provide a better diagnosis, especially since you mention the clicking in the joints.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Agree with above, that I think it sounds most likely a physical issue. But your comments about 'a little explosive' & 'dramatic' make it sound like his training could be the problem - he's been rushed & not got confident of stuff, so occasionally 'blows up' for eg. Without further info, who knows though.


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## Horselovinfan (Jun 13, 2012)

Thanks for your suggestions. This horse has had a rough star and was pushed in his training before he was given to us. I would get a video for you but here's the story. Thursday evening, he was awful!! The trainer who is having me ride him was in the ring teaching a lesson and saw Gunnar bucking and bucking and bucking. He wouldn't pick up either lead! The trainer thinks he's just being nasty. Gunnar has now been reduced to walk/trot with side reins for the next week or so. The logic of that is that 1. not cantering for a little while will hopefully get the whole bucking scenario out of his head and 2. the side reins will help keep him from yanking his head up in the air and hollowing his back. To dissipate any fears about riding with side reins, I ALWAYS, even when lunging, have them fairly loose. Not forcing the horse into a frame, but encouraging him with light steady contact. His trainer was who suggested it and it seems to help. This horse is used to training aids like side reins, when attached, he will hold himself up so the side reins have just the slightest amount of slack in them. It makes me slightly nervous riding with side reins so I am being VERY careful and taking precautions. So, we'll see if this helps. His trainer has talked to me about maybe he's just not going to want to be ridden like this (which is a shame because he loves to jump) and may like be a trail horse or something better. I can totally understand that because he does have whip marks on him. There may just be too many bad memories.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

As said, it sounds likely a physical issue, so please ensure you've ruled that out/treated it before you treat it as a training issue.



Horselovinfan said:


> The trainer thinks he's just being nasty.


Of course, I'm not there, don't know for sure, but I'm betting the trainer is wrong on this one. And even if the horse is 'just being nasty'(quite rare for a horse), I'd think the horse must have had some pretty terrible 'training' to 'turn nasty' and I'd want to address that, not just lable it & just stick side reins on him.



> Gunnar has now been reduced to walk/trot with side reins for the next week or so. The logic of that is that 1. not cantering for a little while will hopefully get the whole bucking scenario out of his head and 2. the side reins will help keep him from yanking his head up in the air and hollowing his back.


'reduced to walk/trot' sounds like one good move ***assuming you've ruled out physical problems***, because if behavioural, and a new horse for you, and he's had previous bad treatment, starting at the start with him will be beneficial. But for 'a week or so' ain't likely to do diddly... especially if you're not actually addressing the problems, 'holes' in training & his early experiences have made him 'nasty', etc, etc. And if the association with bucking is only with cantering, just avoiding it for a week is pointless there too. Sounds to me like this may be a riding instructor, with little idea of actual horse training you've got, and you would benefit from working with a *good* trainer.

On the note of side reins, no, they do not stop a horse from hollowing his back, and can actually make that more likely. I find these type gadgets very rarely useful, and would absolutely & positively not use one on a horse I wasn't 100% sure was physically sound & fit too.

So, bottom line is, I'd stay off his back all together, until you rule out/treat any pain issues, first & foremost. Then I'd find a good trainer, forget cantering, lead changes, side reins, etc, and work from wherever the horse is at, to build his confidence & teach him well.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

The side reins are completely pointless. If you need a safety thing get a martingale, and this won't fix things either just prevent him from running with his head straight up. Don't see how that's an issue for bucking anyways.

I'm glad you're walk/trotting but why do you think that's going to make him forget about bucking??

So do back off. But he needs a physical exam not the trainer "hoping he forgets"...


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## BugZapper89 (Jun 30, 2014)

It sounds like this is a half fast riding outfit that is an insurance companies worst nightmare. What idiot puts a lesson person on anything other then a solid packer. People are not paying to get unloaded or be terrified, they are paying to learn how to ride. The best part of this is the trainer , or should I say wanna be, doesn't immediately get on the horse and address the issue. It's places like this one that drive the insurance rates through the roof and make livestock such a
Huge liability


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

BugZapper, where do you get off with that amount of attitude? OP said she's working with the horse, possibly a working student? Doesn't sound like she's a random lesson student hopping on unsupervised... she actually sounds like she has a good bit of knowledge, there's likely a reason she gets to work with this horse. Not sure how that makes the owner an 'idiot'. 

Where did OP say the trainer hasn't gotten on the horse to work through the issue? OP said the trainer was teaching ANOTHER lesson while she was working with the horse, if my trainer left MY lesson to get on a different horse during MY paid time to work through a melt down I would be seriously ticked off...

Maybe cut the quick judgements and offer some helpful advice? Do you have any for the OP or just nasty comments?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Not unusual...

Agree, sounds like the OP has specific instructions from the trainer on how to work with the horse and sounds like the OP was capable, if not of fully "fixing" the issue (which if it's physical needs to be fixed that way) of riding through the problem and handling that, and then at the first available opportunity the trainer came over.

Agree, unless there is an actual issue, which of course depends on the skills of the rider, the trainer should not be leaving lessons.

The OP is obviously not just a random lesson student as the horse is a "prospective" lesson horse and she is NOT riding the horse in lessons..


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

:lol: and now I realize I didn't follow my own advice and post something constructive.

OP, once you speak with your trainer / owner of the horse and get a chance to work out whether it's pain related I have a feeling you'll have a slew of other issues to work on too largely related to balance (this COULD be the only issue, but I doubt it...) I've known plenty of horses who had a beautiful canter one direction and a sloppy one the other direction, and on the direction they felt unbalanced they would buck / kick out / drop their shoulder / rush into the transition. What it takes is lots of consistency, riding through the issues, etc. do let us know what the outcome is!


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## Horselovinfan (Jun 13, 2012)

That you for the advice. Yes I am a working student and I don't pay to ride this horse. The trainer had ridden Gunnar for about 2 weeks and then ran out of time to work with him therefore passed him onto me to work with. This horse never bucked with him. This problem is new. He said he was going to try to get on him sometime this week to see if he could do anything.

I think the theory behind the walk/trot was not so he would "forget" but that he would get confident walk/trot and he wouldn't get riled up when I eventually ask him to canter. 

I do think it may be a pain thing but the problem is that this horse is a prospective lesson horse or to be sold. He was given to the program for free. So, I don't think there going to want to spend much money on a horse that may not work out when they could just give him away which is what they may end up doing. I wish we could get a vet to look at him but I just don't think it's probable.

Thanks for all the opinions! I will post an update in a couple of days.


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

BugZapper89 said:


> What idiot puts a lesson person on anything other then a solid packer. People are not paying to get unloaded or be terrified, they are paying to learn how to ride.


I would! How else will you learn to handle a horse that bucks, rears, or is "fresh" without experiencing it? Instead later down the road their horse rears and that fall off backwards because they hadn't learned how to keep their balance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

BugZapper89 said:


> a half fast riding outfit...


Hehe! That's a... polite way of writing that term!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Horselovinfan said:


> I do think it may be a pain thing but the problem is that this horse is a prospective lesson horse or to be sold.


(!!!:evil Another reason for me to suspect Bug's right in the 'half fast' comment:-(. IOW it doesn't sound like they give a hoot for their horses. I would refuse to ride the horse in that case. At least, if you can't be part of the solution, you can refuse to be part of his problem! Unless you don't actually like horses, so don't care that you're hurting him...


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## Horselovinfan (Jun 13, 2012)

If they suspected Gunnar was in pain, then yes they would call the vet out but they don't think he's in pain. He doesn't act like he's back sore, sometimes he's perfectly fine, and he's not lame.

Today I rode and cantered Gunnar and he was super good! I had been doing some research on what to do when a horse bucks and the advice I found was not to let the horse stop if he bucks but to keep pushing him forward so he doesn't learn that bucking means he doesn't have to work. I think that was my problem! I would ask him to go forward again but not while he was bucking or immediately after he stopped. Instead, I would wait several seconds, readjust myself and try again. Today, he cantered off the right lead just fine but bucked really hard when I asked for the left. This time, I kept pushing him forward with my legs and seat and finally he cantered. He never bucked to rest of the ride.

Now, I'm thinking it's not pain. I was just unknowingly encouraging a bad habit by no immediately fixing it. We'll see how this next week goes. I know sometimes it is pain but I don't think it is the case this time. I'll try to get a video if he bucks again so y'all can see. If it is a bad habit, I'm sure it will take some time to correct.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I am happy that you learning horsemanship but it really burns me that this is NOT your problem, and that an instructor will allow your safety to be at risk on a bucking lesson horse. If I was your parent I would demand that you not be put on this horse for a lesson.
Not your problem and not your solution.
The ONLY TIME I have broken anything (my arm) is my almost 30 years of horse ownership was when my horse bronco bucked me off, and he had the excuse of standing next to a cannon that fired! People have become crippled when bucked off.
Happy future riding and PLEASE be safe. =D


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## Horselovinfan (Jun 13, 2012)

As I said before, I am a working student and am riding this horse by choice. Trust me, if he became dangerous, I would have about ten different people pulling me off of him!


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

OP isn't riding this horse in lessons, she's riding as a working student... my coach has working students, the talented ones get on the green horses and ride through bucking / bolting / spooking fits. Many people get to the point where they're ready and willing to gain the experience- maybe an aspiring trainer, who knows. Too few people are actually reading what the OP is saying - potential lesson horse, in training... sheesh. SOMEONE has to ride the 'risky' horses (and it doesn't sound like this horse is absolutely explosive...) or they'll keep on bucking forever and ever and never become sane lesson ponies...


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

OP, a little story to have in the back of your brain.

My friends horse has issues EXACTLY as described. It was very obviously not pain and we kept on working with it and after awhile it started to get worse and worse. She had the chiro out (relatively routine) and the chiro said "this horse is lame, get the specialist out immediately". All of us, all experienced horse people were very surprised but figured it wouldn't hurt (and my friend's a worry wart lol).

Specialist came out. This horse has a club foot. Due to the club foot his stride is short. Due to the short stride he is getting a "jackhammer" type movement. Due to that movement he has no shock absorption, due to that he is sore (and is shorter, which doesn't help the club and reinforces the movement issues). Now the farrier has been working on his feet, every 3 weeks with radiographs following the vet's advice. Interestingly enough with this new trim his foot looks FAR more clubby, yet both feet look more balanced overall and are more level. Vet has cleared him and he is back in work and being taught that "right lead canter does not equal pain". He is still fussy but MUCH better and getting better all the time.

What to us seemed like (VERY slight) short striding on the club foot because it was a club foot and nothing more sent up some red flags in just ONE person and after checking it out there was an issue. He's still not completely even in front but is far better.

There was NO obvious pain nor lameness and this horse had been checked multiple times by professionals and doing something that was normal for his conformation. The only obvious symptom was bucking on his right lead.

I am the first person to say "get the vet out" and all that and with me working with this horse EVERY day I would of said absolutely not if someone suggested he was in pain. He HAD been cleared by vets, and previously, that same chiropractor.

PLEASE keep this in mind. Pain is not always obvious.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Horselovinfan said:


> He doesn't act like he's back sore, sometimes he's perfectly fine, and he's not lame.


'Back sore' & lameness aren't the only reasons he could be hurting.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

To add- with my friend's horse the vet determined the "coffin bone" was sore and was the source of the issue. (I'm sure if it was a concussion issue there was more then that but that was the pinpointed spot). Again he was NEVER lame and only very slightly short which was very easily attributed to the fact that he didn't walk the same because his feet weren't the same!

I didn't say that at first because I'm not completely sure on the specifics as I wasn't there first hand when the vet came out. But obviously it was a pain that no one was able to find... You can't just look at a horse and say "his coffin bone hurts", especially when there is NO sign.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I appreciate the working student part. Why get on a horse that bucks twice?!?
*I am a BIG, BIG fan of working said horse on the ground and figuring out how to solve this problem.*
I've been around the block, and when I've been bucked off it was ALWAYS on a horse who bucked before.
The two times that two different horses bronco bucked me, I saw, in hindsight what caused it.
The first time I dove and skinned my elbow. This was an OTTB who need manners and bucked me bc he got tired of having his feet shod, plus other problems that he had.
The second time I broke my humerous. This was a TWH cross, and his numerous list of fears built to an apex when he bucked me off at a small CW Event, standing next to an exploding cannon.
_I would have preferred NOT being bucked off by either._
I know how to ride through a buck. I ALSO know of people who have been permanently hurt bc they had to ride through the bucks to figure it out. =/
I'm giving this horse the benefit of the doubt that there is some pain involved. Either the OP's Instructor is ignoring the pain and MAKING the horse work, or the OP's Instructor doesn't know enough to discern a pain problem vs a behavior problem.
Either way, I don't trust this Instructor to Instruct this working student.
OP, get off and work with and watch this horse on the ground, and then either ascertain where the pain is coming from, or retrain his manners, also on the ground.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

OP- I would certainly rule out pain. Take off the side reins. If pain is not the issue, work on your horse's balance through transitions, large circles, figure 8s, serpentines, half halts, lengthening and shortening. I was a young working student at your age. Good luck with this project. 

Oh, and stay away from exploding cannons.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Corporal said:


> I appreciate the working student part. Why get on a horse that bucks twice?!?
> *I am a BIG, BIG fan of working said horse on the ground and figuring out how to solve this problem.*
> I've been around the block, and when I've been bucked off it was ALWAYS on a horse who bucked before.
> The two times that two different horses bronco bucked me, I saw, in hindsight what caused it.
> ...


O/T but why does dislike of being shod = bucking off riders..? Were his feet sore?

I think many horses would buck if faced with an exploding cannon!! hahae


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