# Why do horse lovers support slaughter?



## FreeDestiny

This thread is asking for all kinds of wrong. 

Un alike what you think, everyone on here likes horses. And that's why a lot of us are pro-slaughter, because we'd rather see horses go to meat than starve and be neglected. Wouldn't you agree?

We're not evil people on here, no one parades around saying that all horses should go to slaughter and no horse is worth the time and money it takes to own it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Delfina

Nope, I absolutely hate my horse. That's why I spend 90% of my disposable income on his board/tack/lessons/farrier and so forth.

I have an idea.... instead of insulting those of us that aren't adamantly screeching "save the poor widdle horsies" you get off the internet and go DO something about how you'd like your tax dollars spent. If you don't want your dollars spent on something, you can actually do something about it..... other than whining on a message board about how others should.


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## Golden Horse

Delfina said:


> Nope, I absolutely hate my horse. That's why I spend 90% of my disposable income on his board/tack/lessons/farrier and so forth.
> .


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## MN Tigerstripes

Nope, I hate mine. In fact, I'm plotting right now how to make my horses' lives even MORE miserable than they already are. Maybe a nice grooming session tomorrow? Or.. Ooo.. Here's a good one! I'll take Soda on a ride and pony Lily along so we can all get some exercise. 

Of course the people on this forum like horses. Otherwise I highly doubt any of us would rearrange our lives and pocketbooks so regularly for their comfort and safety. I know I've disrupted my life many a time for my two, I do that more for them than for some of my friends/family.


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## Tennessee

You're kidding me, right?


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## usandpets

Only 90%?

I hated the first one so I kept getting more to hate. Now we have six of them. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Delfina

Well yeah.... the hubby and kids have this crazy notion that I'm supposed to feed, clothe and house them along with the occasional trip to Disneyworld.

Oh and there's also the riding lessons for the kiddos, they seem to think that if Mommy gets to ride, they should to!


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## Wallaby

Personally, I think horse slaughter is dumb, mainly due to the fact that most people love their horses and give them all sorts of medication that will and does taint the horse's meat. Do I really want to be ingesting bute and other drugs that say on them "not for use on animals intended for human consumption" by eating a horse that had been treated with a drug like that? No thanks.

However, I'm also firmly a believer in "agreeing to disagree" and I hate arguing just for the sake of arguing (which is really what horse slaughter topics always turn into) so I try to stay out of controversial threads. 

I'm never going to be able to change the minds of people who are already firmly pro-slaughter (and I even believe that slaughter has it's, rare, place) and I've accepted that. I need to be respectful of their choice and not try to beat them into agreeing with me. That's only going to get them to disagree with me more.
I know other options to slaughter (breeding in a more responsible manner, education, etc) and I try to educate the people I know who are open to education. I tell them both sides and let them make their choice. 
It's like religion. You can believe whatever you want is right but that doesn't mean that you can/should force others to believe the same thing if they don't want to. 

As the saying goes, "you catch more bees with honey."


And yeah, I hate horses SOOOOO much. That's why I talk about my horse all the time and spend pretty much all my money on her...cuz she's my least favorite EVER.


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## FreeDestiny

Delfina said:


> Well yeah.... the hubby and kids have this crazy notion that I'm supposed to feed, clothe and house them along with the occasional trip to Disneyworld.
> 
> Oh and there's also the riding lessons for the kiddos, they seem to think that if Mommy gets to ride, they should to!


Disneyworld? What kind of world do we live in, gosh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maura

Let's attempt to make this thread a civil, reasonable discussion. 

Asking "Does anyone on this forum besides me actually like horses?" is an example of "If you're not with us, you're against us" and is a decpetively simplistic argument that doesn't recognize all the factors contributing to the problem.

I do not describe my self as pro-slaughter. I hate the fact that horses in this country are bred to be disposable. I hate the fact that horses are shipped in double decker trailers to Mexico and Canada to be slaughtered in questionable conditions. In a perfect world, all horses would have healthy happy lives without abuse and neglect and quick, comfortable deaths. 

For the record, I do not have a problem with a horse having that clean, comfortable death and his remains being used to feed something or someone else. I do find that preferable to letting a corpse rot in the ground. 

However, I do think advocating against slaughter is attacking the wrong end of the problem. Advocate against the reasons so many horses are slaughtered, and you'll have my support. 

Until you can do something about the TB, STB, QH and Arab racing industries breeding 20 foals to get 3 to the track and 1 winner, until you can keep halter breeders from breeding unsound, unusable horses and until you can do something to stem the tide of back yard breeders, slaughter is an sad necessity. While I'm dreaming, please do something about the glut of mustangs on the taxpayers dime, the economy, the price of hay and all the novice horse owners who didn't understand what they were getting into. 

Then you would reduce the population going to slaughter to the truly sick, lame and unusable. 

Until that time, slaughter is a sad necessity. Argue for making it as humane as possible, argue for making it less necessary. Or propose a workable alternative plan to cope with the incredible surplus of horses other than the hopelessly naive idea of adopting them all out. 

But don't tell someone who's devoted their entire life to the care and welfare of horses that I "don't like horses" because I understand the reality of the situation.


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## InStyle

I absolutely hate mine, and like usandpets, I now have 10 to hate. That seems to be my maximum hatingness. Sometimes, because of my hate, I groom them (GASP) and ride them (double GASP). 

My hate was so great today I just went out with treats and freely handed them out!!! The nerve of me!!

I used to hate the whole horse slaughter idea, but I researched both sides, and don't force my thoughts on it to anyone who doesn't want to listen. I live 4hrs from an auction house that runs horses through on a regular basis. I bought 2 mares with colts by their sides. Rehomed one mare and colt, kept the other 2 for me. I also have a registered paint mare from the auction. As well as a large Arab/Percheron that was headed to the auction the following week, whom I bought before hand. When I want a project, off I go. 

While I may not like the idea of somebody eating MY horses, the thought of people eating horses, especially if they were raised for meat doesn't bother me anymore then the thought of eating the steer in our pasture does.........I kinda want ribs now.

Since you are against the idea of horse meat and slaughter for meat, Do you feel the same for cows? Poultry? I would *assume* you are a vegetarian. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wyominggrandma

Are we supposed to like our horses?? Oh man, I guess I have been wrong the past 40 years. Darn, and I truly enjoyed feeding them, shoeing them, vet care, horse trailer purchases and all the other stuff because I hate them and just throwing money out the window.
I hate paying taxes but since I live in the US I have to. I hate seeing people getting free medical, free income and not pay their bills, while I work for my money.
But that is the big grown up world. In a wonderful world there would be no slaughter houses because there would not be an over abundance of horses. 
Too bad it won't happen in my life time. Don't like the necessity of having them, but again, that is a reality of having to a place to send horses when the time comes.


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## kitten_Val

maura said:


> Advocate against the reasons so many horses are slaughtered, and you'll have my support.


This. Because there are so many unwanted horses out there noone wants/needs, they will die this way or another anyway. Some people kindly put them down (vet or the gun shot), unfortunately some just let them starve. I'm always wondering how starving (which is a horrible horrible death) is any better then slaughtering. 

As plenty of people already mentioned what would be the reason then the responsible owner (and I have to say I think the majority of people on this forum are) spends so much time and money on those animals? Just to ride I can go and pay for the lesson or trail riding barn, still I _own _my mares with all big expenses that comes with it.


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## Joe4d

maura said:


> Let's attempt to make this thread a civil, reasonable discussion.
> 
> Asking "Does anyone on this forum besides me actually like horses?" is an example of "If you're not with us, you're against us" and is a decpetively simplistic argument that doesn't recognize all the factors contributing to the problem.
> 
> I do not describe my self as pro-slaughter. I hate the fact that horses in this country are bred to be disposable. I hate the fact that horses are shipped in double decker trailers to Mexico and Canada to be slaughtered in questionable conditions. In a perfect world, all horses would have healthy happy lives without abuse and neglect and quick, comfortable deaths.
> 
> For the record, I do not have a problem with a horse having that clean, comfortable death and his remains being used to feed something or someone else. I do find that preferable to letting a corpse rot in the ground.
> 
> However, I do think advocating against slaughter is attacking the wrong end of the problem. Advocate against the reasons so many horses are slaughtered, and you'll have my support.
> 
> Until you can do something about the TB, STB, QH and Arab racing industries breeding 20 foals to get 3 to the track and 1 winner, until you can keep halter breeders from breeding unsound, unusable horses and until you can do something to stem the tide of back yard breeders, slaughter is an sad necessity. While I'm dreaming, please do something about the glut of mustangs on the taxpayers dime, the economy, the price of hay and all the novice horse owners who didn't understand what they were getting into.
> 
> Then you would reduce the population going to slaughter to the truly sick, lame and unusable.
> 
> Until that time, slaughter is a sad necessity. Argue for making it as humane as possible, argue for making it less necessary. Or propose a workable alternative plan to cope with the incredible surplus of horses other than the hopelessly naive idea of adopting them all out.
> 
> But don't tell someone who's devoted their entire life to the care and welfare of horses that I "don't like horses" because I understand the reality of the situation.


well said, You care if I cut and paste ? 
Yep slaughter is bad, but US supervised and regulated slaughter is the best solution I have heard. I am perfectly open to other suggestions. I just havent heard any.


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## Kimmylikestojump

Make the conditions at slaughterhouses and transportation more humane and reasonable and I'm behind it.


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## MySissyGirl

I also would rather see horses go to meat than starve and be neglected and it happens way to often when there is no place to send them.  It is a sad world for those horses. Mine are happy I own them.


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## bubba13

Celeste said:


> Does anybody on this forum besides me actually like horses? All I see is people wanting to eat them. Those few that actually don't want to spend their tax money inspecting horses for slaughter and export so that other countries can make big profits from our horses at our expense are called idiots.


If you don't want to see horses slaughtered, why don't you rescue about 30 and convince all of your friends to do the same, and they their friends? That should pretty well take care of the problem. 



Wallaby said:


> Personally, I think horse slaughter is dumb, mainly due to the fact that most people love their horses and give them all sorts of medication that will and does taint the horse's meat. Do I really want to be ingesting bute and other drugs that say on them "not for use on animals intended for human consumption" by eating a horse that had been treated with a drug like that? No thanks.


See, that's one of those things blown out of proportion. Most of those drugs are perfectly safe after a short withdrawal period. Have you ever heard of anyone actually getting sick after eating "tainted" horsemeat? Yet it's consumed daily.....


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## Gremmy

Celeste said:


> Does anybody on this forum besides me actually like horses? All I see is people wanting to eat them. Those few that actually don't want to spend their tax money inspecting horses for slaughter and export so that *other countries can make big profits from our horses* at our expense are called idiots.
> 
> I have an idea. Why don't we put a huge export tax on horse meat if we are going to slaughter them. Then we can take the extra money and use it to take care of unwanted horses....................
> 
> I don't want to spend my money on it and I am forced to pay taxes.


Mind explaining this? That's like saying you make big profits from going out and buying groceries :neutral: You do realize that the horse meat isn't just exported for free right? The countries that buy it actually have to pay for it. Like it or not, horse slaughter is a profitable industry, or else it would not exist. So don't you worry, your tax dollars are not being sucked into a black hole; there is money coming back in.

Also import/export taxes already exist. They're called tariffs.


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## Spyder

bubba13 said:


> See, that's one of those things blown out of proportion. Most of those drugs are perfectly safe after a short withdrawal period. Have you ever heard of anyone actually getting sick after eating "tainted" horsemeat? Yet it's consumed daily.....


Many places are banning horse meat being sold for food due to the possibility of contamination.

http://i531.photobucket.com/albums/dd356/Cyberling/abc-16pic9.jpg

And

Dirty little secret: Canada



> A 2010 U.S. study on animals sent to slaughter found the presence of a particularly troubling drug commonly administered to horses — phenylbutazone (PBZ), an anti-inflammatory used for pain relief.* The drug is banned for human consumption by the U.S., Canada, U.K. and European Union because of documented health hazards, sometimes fatal, including a blood disorder in which the body's bone marrow doesn't make enough new blood cells and a condition that triggers chronic bacterial infections.
> The study’s researchers found 9,000 pounds of meat from horses “with known exposure to PBZ” sent for human consumption over the five-year study period.*
> “There appears to be inadequate testing to ensure that horses given banned substances such as PBZ do not enter the slaughter pipeline,” the study concludes. “The lack of oversight to prevent horses given PBZ from being sent to slaughter for human consumption … indicates a serious gap in food safety and constitutes a significant public health risk.”
> Ann Marini, professor of neurology and neuroscience at Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda, Md., and a co-author of the study, says every horse in the U.S. receives at least one dose of PBZ each year.
> “There’s no horse in (the U.S.) that is eligible for slaughter for human use,” she said in an interview. “It’s a health regulation violation…. This is now Canada’s problem. And nothing has been done to end this. We’re sending contaminated horse meat to the people eating it. We’re equally liable.”
> Use of PBZ is equally common in Canadian horses, says Sinikka Crosland, executive director of the Canadian Horse Defence Coalition which is seeking a ban on horse slaughter in Canada.
> “It’s like you and I taking an aspirin,” she says. “It’s the drug of choice when a horse is showing pain.”
> She’s given both of her horses the drug to deal with inflammation or lameness, she says.
> “If I were a liar, I could send them along (to slaughter) and say they haven’t had any drugs and who would question me?”
> The few publicly-available horse meat test results conducted by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency have not indicated health hazards related to PBZ.
> The contradiction lies in the debate over whether the testing methods are sufficient to ensure public safety.
> And agency officials say scrutiny over horse medication monitoring was tightened last year when they began requiring all slaughterhouse operators killing horses for human consumption to have complete identity and medical records for all animals presented for slaughter.
> But Marini and other experts say those testing and monitoring measures fall well short of ensuring public safety.
> “When you slaughter as many horses as Canada does, there’s no way that any agency can test every carcass. So you have to be selective in the carcasses that you test. Clearly, it’s a hit-or-miss kind of thing.”


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## demonwolfmoon

@Spyder...I'm reading that differently. From what i had read on Wiki, the drug was banned for use in humans because of that health issue.

AS FOR CONSUMPTION, Bubba is right...drugs generally don't *stay* in the system. So with a known withdrawal period (which can be found), the meat would again be safe for human consumption.


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## Spyder

demonwolfmoon said:


> @Spyder...I'm reading that differently. From what i had read on Wiki, the drug was banned for use in humans because of that health issue.
> 
> AS FOR CONSUMPTION, Bubba is right...drugs generally don't *stay* in the system. So with a known withdrawal period (which can be found), the meat would again be safe for human consumption.


That is assuming there HAS BEEN a withdrawal period.

That article seems to imply that it may not have had any withdrawal period if it has been found in the carcass of the horse.

That is how I read it.


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## bubba13

Yes, bute is given to slaughtered horses. But has a single person gotten sick from it (documented)? And the article doesn't even say that the horses in question had it on their carcasses....only that they were "exposed" to it in life. Well, duh.

No, people don't take bute for _themselves _(anymore--it certainly used to be a human drug). But, like DWM said, there's a big difference between eating trace amounts in meet and popping a concentrated pill of the stuff.

Also,



> Many places are banning horse meat being sold for food due to the possibility of contamination.
> 
> http://i531.photobucket.com/albums/d...abc-16pic9.jpg


Huh?


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## DrumRunner

I hate mine so much I got them Christmas presents! Stupid horses. Don't they know I would rather have a new car than pay all their bills? I'm just waiting on Hickory to get a little fatter so we can roast him up for dinner. I just can't stand it when they meet me at the gate like they are happy to see me or something, and I sure hate it when they do something well. What a waste of time and money my horses are, bet they sure would be tasty with some Dale's and ranch dressing. 

Would you like that grilled, fried, or baked?


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## Celeste

Phenylbutazone was taken off the human medical market due to cases involving the following:

Thrombocytopenia
CNS effects: Convulsions and coma
Hepatotoxicity: High Liver Enzymes.
Renal Toxicity
Renal Failure. (high BUN and Creat.)
Interstitial nephritis. (Hematuria)
Liver and renal function tests improved gradually with plasmapheresis.

*Yum Yum!!*

Sources: 

_Prescott LF. Clinical features and management of analgesic poisoning. [Journal Article] Human Toxicology. 3 Suppl:75S-84S, 1984 Aug.

Okonek S. Reinecke HJ. Acute toxicity of pyrazolones. [Review] [26 refs] [Journal Article. Review] American Journal of Medicine. 75:94-8, 1983 Nov 14._


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## wyominggrandma

If you eat beef you have just as much chance as ingesting drugs, since some of the drugs used on beef have to be withdrawn for a certain time period before slaughter.
Do you drink milk? Do your kids? They give all kinds of drugs to dairy cows when they have milking issues and there are withdrawel warnings on the boxes as to how many hours the drug should not be used before slaughter.
Do you honestly think every cow and every beef cow is checked before slaughter? You can bet some slip through the checking and the withdrawel period is not truly used before slaughter.


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## equiniphile

bubba13 said:


> See, that's one of those things blown out of proportion. Most of those drugs are perfectly safe after a short withdrawal period. Have you ever heard of anyone actually getting sick after eating "tainted" horsemeat? Yet it's consumed daily.....


 This. Companies have to put those warnings on their products to protect their own arses...98% of them pose no threat to people consuming horse meat.


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## demonwolfmoon

Celeste said:


> Phenylbutazone was taken off the human medical market due to cases involving the following:
> 
> Thrombocytopenia
> CNS effects: Convulsions and coma
> Hepatotoxicity: High Liver Enzymes.
> Renal Toxicity
> Renal Failure. (high BUN and Creat.)
> Interstitial nephritis. (Hematuria)
> Liver and renal function tests improved gradually with plasmapheresis.
> 
> *Yum Yum!!*
> 
> Sources:
> 
> _Prescott LF. Clinical features and management of analgesic poisoning. [Journal Article] Human Toxicology. 3 Suppl:75S-84S, 1984 Aug.
> 
> Okonek S. Reinecke HJ. Acute toxicity of pyrazolones. [Review] [26 refs] [Journal Article. Review] American Journal of Medicine. 75:94-8, 1983 Nov 14._


:shock: REALLY??? *sarcasm*

Ok that's been said, but the point is, just like humans, animals metabolize drugs and excrete them from their systems.

THAT is to say that after an amount of time off of my lexapro, my body sheds the drug. It doesn't stay in there practically forever like heavy metals.....
You should actually read and think about the implications of the articles you post...

PS) Have you ever read the list of potential side effects of the drugs people DO take? xD


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## Celeste

If horses become food animals, then the FDA will have no choice but to take drugs such at "bute" off the market. Most likely, they will get banamine too. Sounds like a poor plan to me. We have lost most of the drugs that we used to use for cattle as more and more cause problems in humans that use milk or meat. Chloramphenical is probably the best antibiotic that was ever developed for cattle, but it is gone because trace amounts can cause aplastic anemia in humans. The drug is still approved in humans, but it is only used in last ditch cases, like a brain abscess or something else deadly. Humans that eat food have a legal right to have a product that is free of harmful drugs.

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/NewsEvents/CVMUpdates/ucm124078.htm

"The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is issuing an order prohibiting the extralabel use of phenylbutazone animal and human drugs in female dairy cattle 20 months of age or older. FDA is issuing this order based on evidence that extralabel use of phenylbutazone in these dairy cattle will likely cause an adverse event in humans. The Agency finds that such extralabel use presents a risk to the public health for the purposes of the Animal Medicinal Drug Use Clarification Act of 1994 (AMDUCA)."


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## bubba13

Or how about pesticides on food? Unless you're buying everthing organic, and even that's not foolproof. Hope you don't own anything plastic, either, because that's toxic. Many forms of cookware have chemicals that leach out and can contaminate your food with toxins (this is well-documented). Or how about soda? Hair spray? Pollution from cars and factories?

Say, I've got an idea....


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## bubba13

Celeste said:


> If horses become food animals, then the FDA will have no choice but to take drugs such at "bute" off the market. Most likely, they will get banamine too.


Horses have BEEN food animals all along, so how exactly will this change things?


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## Celeste

equiniphile said:


> This. Companies have to put those warnings on their products to protect their own arses...98% of them pose no threat to people consuming horse meat.


*So a full 2 % do pose a threat? Scary stuff.*


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## Celeste

bubba13 said:


> Horses have BEEN food animals all along, so how exactly will this change things?


Not legally in the USA. Perhaps in Australia.........


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## bubba13

And to answer the original question of this thread:



Celeste said:


> Why do horse lovers support slaughter? Does anybody on this forum besides me actually like horses?


How can you, as a veterinarian, support euthanasia? Do you actually enjoy killing animals? I thought you were supposed to help them and heal them!


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## demonwolfmoon

bubba13 said:


> Or how about pesticides on food? Unless you're buying everthing organic, and even that's not foolproof. Hope you don't own anything plastic, either, because that's toxic. Many forms of cookware have chemicals that leach out and can contaminate your food with toxins (this is well-documented). Or how about soda? Hair spray? Pollution from cars and factories?
> 
> Say, I've got an idea....


+1
From what I've read, even soy products contain some sort of estrogen which can negatively impact the system.

Also um...if you don't want to eat horse...don't?
Honestly I don't see a massive market for horse burgers in the US anyway...


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## equiniphile

Celeste said:


> *So a full 2 % do pose a threat? Scary stuff.*


Of course this is just an estimate. I myself haven't done much research on the statistics. However, the 2% or so encompass drugs that are probably not those that are going to be given to a horse in the first place. Something so powerful that it would negatively impact the secondary consumer is NOT something I would give directly to my horse.

Of course, if we all hate our horses, I suppose we'd give them these drugs.


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## kitten_Val

bubba13 said:


> Unless you're buying everything *organic *


:rofl: 

They released a research in Europe (really lengthy, like 10 years or so) that all that "organic" food (and that it's better for the health) seems to be on same page as "global warming". I may try to find a reference (as it's been some time after I read that), but I definitely can see the point.


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## bubba13

Celeste said:


> Not legally in the USA. Perhaps in Australia.........


Since when? Find me the law. When was it illegal to slaughter or eat horses in the US?


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## equiniphile

It has never been illegal to consume horse slaughter in the states.


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## kitten_Val

_*Just a reminder to everyone: please, stay civil and avoid the personal attacks and direct insults! *_


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## Kayty

Celeste said:


> Not legally in the USA. Perhaps in Australia.........


Nope not in Australia. Try France and Korea for the main ones that very openly eat horse meat. 

We slaughter horses in Australia, and we export horse meat to France. Its not illegal to eat it or slaughter horses, but it's not sold widely on the market either

As far as being pro slaughter and therefore hating my own horses - I have been outside every 30minutes today since 5.30am, cold hosing, icing and poulticing my thoroughbreds hind legs, and picking scabs off his back thanks to rain scald. 
Interested to see if that is counted as hating horses?


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## maura

Whoa! Did I miss the thread segue?

First the OP posed the question about whether we could like horses and not oppose horse slaughter, and now, suddenly, the thread is about residual medications in horse meat for human consumption?

Did I miss a turn?


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## kitten_Val

maura said:


> First the OP posed the question about whether we could like horses and not oppose horse slaughter, and now, suddenly, *the thread is about residual medications in horse meat for human consumption?*


I like this part of discussion though, because it is interesting indeed. I wonder how much residual medications we have in beef/pork/lamb/chicken. Was there any research really?


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## Spyder

maura said:


> Whoa! Did I miss the thread segue?
> 
> Did I miss a turn?



It was that left at Elm street followed by a right at the gardens while you were asleep from too much punch at Mike's party...didn't you know ??????

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Kimmylikestojump

The only thing I had read about was that Bute had been linked to cancer in humans. But a quick google search says that the evidence that Bute caused cancer is 'inadequate'


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## bubba13

Government Report Finds Dangerous Residues in Meat « SpeakEasy

USDA Report Focuses on Residues in Meat | content from National Hog Farmer


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## tinyliny

Kayty said:


> Nope not in Australia. Try France and Korea for the main ones that very openly eat horse meat.
> 
> We slaughter horses in Australia, and we export horse meat to France. Its not illegal to eat it or slaughter horses, but it's not sold widely on the market either
> 
> As far as being pro slaughter and therefore hating my own horses - I have been outside every 30minutes today since 5.30am, cold hosing, icing and poulticing my thoroughbreds hind legs, and picking scabs off his back thanks to rain scald.
> Interested to see if that is counted as hating horses?


 
It'll do. But surely you can hate them a bit more than that!


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## soenjer55

We don't actually love our horses, we just buy $18-a-bale hay for eight equines by using the money we need for bills to fatten them up for slaughter.

Nah. I love my ponies, and still support slaughter. I don't support the way it's carried out. The idea itself is harmless, it's the way it's done that is the problem...


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## Kayty

Add a public holiday vet call for a horse with a now raging temperature, very dehydrated and an infection to the list. Oh, and the 3 litres of saline fluid we've just pumped into him. MERRY CHRISTMAS to me :/ 
Yessir, I hate my horses right now!


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## Beauseant

I appreciate your sentiments, celeste, but that first sentence was BOUND to raise a few hackles.....

Perhaps you should have worded it differently if you wanted a productive debate rather than satire....:?


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## SarahAnn

This again? We're beating a dead horse here, folks. 


:rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kitten_Val

bubba13 said:


> http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/06/03/government-report-finds-dangerous-residues-in-meat/USDA Report Focuses on Residues in Meat | content from National Hog Farmer


"*A Call for Permanent Estate Tax Relief*" and "*USDA Grants for Obesity Prevention*" were the best parts of the article... :rofl:


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## Sunny

I love my horse more than quite a few things in this world, and I'm pro-slaughter. I've actually written a research report and a rogerian argument on the subject, which has only furthered my hate for the careless breeders of the world, both backyard and high dollar.

Where I board is also a horse rescue. The BO just brought four horses home, one very close to death, another not far behind it.

I was talking to some boarders, and when I asked one what their position on slaughter was, her answer was, "I'm pro, only because of all of the (rescue) calls I've been on with the BO. That opens your eyes to the reality real quick," and I couldn't agree more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Celeste

kitten_Val said:


> "*A Call for Permanent Estate Tax Relief*" and "*USDA Grants for Obesity Prevention*" were the best parts of the article... :rofl:


So when you die, you want to have the government tax your estate? That will mean that your kids will have to sell your horses to pay the tax. At least there will be a market. Horsemeat anyone?


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## Celeste

I started this thread with the title *"Does anybody on this forum like horses?"* The title was changed by a moderator.

My point was this: Think about the 12 year old girls that could be coming here to learn about horses. Think about how they are being horrified by all the people who eagerly want to promote a fast easy market for substandard horses. I would be mortified if I were a kid that was full of hopes and dreams and love of horses. This forum is overrun with profit seeking people who find horses to be no more than a market commodity. 

I have been accused of trying to start an argument by starting this thread. Well if that is true, it seems that I was successful. The relative lack of people that see problems with slaughter does not show a lack of support for my position. It merely shows that most people that agree with me are not on this forum any longer.


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## Jake and Dai

Celeste said:


> This forum is overrun with profit seeking people who find horses to be no more than a market commodity.



We must be looking at different forums...because this statement is very much NOT the case with this one.

I personally hate the idea of slaughter...but I also understand it is a necessary evil to deal with the reality of over breeding...from the high dollar racing industry to the backyard breeder who wants a ky-oot widdle baby to cuddle.

I wish I had the ways and means to save _ALL_ the ponehs...but I do not. But I love my two grade horses, who aren't much good for anything but looking pretty and carting my butt around from time to time.


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## equiniphile

Celeste said:


> My point was this: Think about the 12 year old girls that could be coming here to learn about horses. Think about how they are being horrified by all the people who eagerly want to promote a fast easy market for substandard horses. I would be mortified if I were a kid that was full of hopes and dreams and love of horses.


 First of all, the forum now has a rule against under-15's being members. If they wish to browse the forum, they could just as easily be reading a veterinary forum with the same debates going on. Being on the Internet is a risk, however mild, and you're going to come across things you don't like!

I joined at 12, so I think this reasoning would apply to me. I came to get answers about my Paso Fino gelding's herd sourness, actually, and stayed to be a member of the community and read the fascinating debates (which, yes, included slaughter debates). I'm still perfectly sane....most of the time.


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## Spyder

equiniphile said:


> I'm still perfectly sane....most of the time.



Poor girl..........

:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Beauseant

I actually agree with your point of view, celeste. And I have stated so once or twice. Then I just decided that since I had said my piece, it was time to leave it alone.

YOu and I are not going to change the others' minds, and that's ok, because they have a right to their opinions, even if you and I don't agree with them. Which I don't. 

I was merely stating that your opening question in this thread was not well worded and was going to offend the others.


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## bubba13

All right, fine. What is your solution for the horse overpopulation, abuse, neglect, and carcass disposal problem, sans slaughter?


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## SugarPlumLove

wyominggrandma said:


> If you eat beef you have just as much chance as ingesting drugs, since some of the drugs used on beef have to be withdrawn for a certain time period before slaughter.
> Do you drink milk? Do your kids? They give all kinds of drugs to dairy cows when they have milking issues and there are withdrawel warnings on the boxes as to how many hours the drug should not be used before slaughter.
> Do you honestly think every cow and every beef cow is checked before slaughter? You can bet some slip through the checking and the withdrawel period is not truly used before slaughter.


Since I have just been following these types of threads for a while I'm going to decide to jump in this time and qoute what wyominggrandma said. First off this is not a personal attack on you but rather an attempt in education.

I have been in the dairy industry for years and yes there are lots of problems with mastitis and other infections. The cows get treated for this by means of penicillen, antibiotics, etc, etc. The milk from these cows is not aloud to be added to the big tank and unfortunatly must be thrown out. After this particular cow is finished the cups, jar and pipes are cleaned extensively BEFORE milking the next cow. After every milking session everything is completely cleaned. Depending on how much milk is produced and how big the tank is the milk gets picked up by a big truck every so often. A sample is taken from the milk to be checked by the dairy company to make sure there is no penicillin, antibiotics, milk from a mastitis cow, etc, etc, in the milk. If there is anything found the entire tank will be thrown out and the farmer doesn't get paid for the milk ofcourse. When the tank empty it is completely cleaned inside and out. 

As you can see there are good measures being taken to make the milk as clean as possible. Ofcourse you can never get every tiny bit out but that is not only the case with milk but EVERYTHING that you eat. People that are scared of this type of thing saying everything can cause cancer or some other disease should go live in a plastic bubble and have all your food sterilized before eating it. It's sad really how scared the society of today is. Scared of the unknown I guess. Educate yourself and you'll find out the world isn't really all that scary if you know what to look out for. Not for penicillin in your milk but for the atomic bombs and nuclear weapens that your government is making. 

*Proud to be canadian*

*Proud to be slaughtering horses and keeping them from starvation* 

Because whats a bullet in your head compared to being a sack of bones with no food insight??


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## Hidalgo13

> I would be mortified if I were a kid that was full of hopes and dreams and love of horses.


With children being permitted to see movies and that are more and more violent, (and children's movies that are becoming more violent) oh and let's please not forget video games! You really think this thread would bother them? Anyways if it mortified them to read such threads I'd think they'd stop... unless they enjoy mortifying themselves. I'm not saying some would not be somewhat affected or curious to continue reading, but this would be a good way to slowly make them learn about the issues in the horse world. And if they are too sensitive to read threads like this, maybe they shouldn't even be on the internet. They should be reading a book on how to groom and take care of horses and other thinsg for their age. And if they are older (as in 12 and up) and they are still mortified, well it's time their bubble has been broken because they are worse and more scarier things in this messed up world.



> This forum is overrun with profit seeking people who find horses to be no more than a market commodity.


Where? Where are those selfish profit seekers? "looks, right" "looks left"... weird, I can't seem to find any. All I see is people spending most on their income to keep their horses happy and in good weight. (shrugs) oh well, maybe I'll find one tomorrow.


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## Hidalgo13

Another thing, you can't see everything in black and white. Horse slaughter is sad, but what is sadder is that before they are killed, they are kept in horrible conditions. I think there should be more debates on how to solve that problem than the slaughter itself. 
It's more cruel to keep an animal living, but let neglect and cruelty starve it and make it suffers for months and months before it collapses on it's own because it can't handle it anymore, than let them suffers equally as much but for a much shorter period of time because their misery has been spared quickly for sake of someones selfish pocket book.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

Celeste said:


> I started this thread with the title *"Does anybody on this forum like horses?"* The title was changed by a moderator.
> 
> My point was this: Think about the 12 year old girls that could be coming here to learn about horses. Think about how they are being horrified by all the people who eagerly want to promote a fast easy market for substandard horses. I would be mortified if I were a kid that was full of hopes and dreams and love of horses. This forum is overrun with profit seeking people who find horses to be no more than a market commodity.
> 
> I have been accused of trying to start an argument by starting this thread. Well if that is true, it seems that I was successful. The relative lack of people that see problems with slaughter does not show a lack of support for my position. It merely shows that most people that agree with me are not on this forum any longer.


The title was changed because it was poorly worded and very offensive. On a forum dedicated to horses and those who love them, asking "Does anybody on this forum like horses?" was callous and very much off base. 

I absolutely 100% love my horses, have my entire life as did my mom and grandpa before me, our farm has been in existence for almost 60 years. Because I can see logical point in supporting slaughter (because it's a necessary evil and a sensible way to cull the unsound, mistreated, unwanted horses of the horse market) that means I don't love my horses? I can assure you my expense statements would beg to differ - this week alone between vet, farrier & the co-op they cost me well over 2k. Nope, don't like horses at all. 

The argument about kids reading it is a moot point. We implemented an age restriction and there aren't 12 year olds on here reading - at least as members. If they are, they are viewing as guests and that is the responsibility of their parents to oversee their internet usage. We cannot unfortunately police who views our forum as a non-member. 

Would it be fantastic if slaughter wasn't necessary, you bet. Unfortunately though, it is. Take a trip to any auction house in this country any given week and watch how many permanently unsound, starved, mistreated horses run through the ring. There is a point when life isn't life anymore, those horses are better off going to slaughter than left to stand 3 legged lame in someone's pasture for 10 more years suffering or those with baggage ending up in the hands of a novice owner and seriously injuring/killing that novice owner and getting passed around owner to owner the rest of their days. In my mind, if they can serve more purpose be it feeding someone's dogs or people even (not that I would seek that out personally) that is much better use of life than some of the alternatives that these horses face.


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## kitten_Val

Celeste said:


> So when you die, you want to have the government tax your estate?


Celeste, how come THIS is related to the horse meat discussion? :shock: Then you can tight everything in this life to it. And yes, I'd rather have my kids to put down my horses (even for the purpose to eat them) then let them stand and starve to death, or end up on double decker to Mexico.


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## tinyliny

Celeste said:


> I started this thread with the title *"Does anybody on this forum like horses?"* The title was changed by a moderator.
> 
> My point was this: Think about the 12 year old girls that could be coming here to learn about horses. Think about how they are being horrified by all the people who eagerly want to promote a fast easy market for substandard horses. I would be mortified if I were a kid that was full of hopes and dreams and love of horses. This forum is overrun with profit seeking people who find horses to be no more than a market commodity.
> 
> I have been accused of trying to start an argument by starting this thread. Well if that is true, it seems that I was successful. The relative lack of people that see problems with slaughter does not show a lack of support for my position. It merely shows that most people that agree with me are not on this forum any longer.


 
the title was changed to try and keep it on track as being a relevant discussion regarding horse slaughter; pros and cons. Not whether or not members do or do not love their horses. Which question did you want answered?


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## demonwolfmoon

Celeste said:


> So when you die, you want to have the government tax your estate? That will mean that your kids will have to sell your horses to pay the tax. At least there will be a market. Horsemeat anyone?


I don't intend for my children to be put in that awkward position.
However, like the Pharaohs of Egypt, I intend my beloved pets to be killed so that they might accompany me to the Afterlife.
Instead of burying them with me in my tiny modern coffin, they can be bbq-ed slowly and fed out to all of my mourners.
I'll make sure to invite only those with REALLY GOOD INSURANCE so that if my horse happens to have had some banamine sometime before it died, they can get that little bout of anemia taken care of....

Then again, I'm sure that since my family will be providing this meal, and we're clearly profit driven, they'll want to take mandatory "donations" at the door to cover the costs of providing the guests such a spectacular feast.


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## Celeste

kitten_Val said:


> Celeste, how come THIS is related to the horse meat discussion? :shock: Then you can tight everything in this life to it. And yes, I'd rather have my kids to put down my horses (even for the purpose to eat them) then let them stand and starve to death, or end up on double decker to Mexico.


I didn't bring this subject up. It was quoted by someone else.


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## Silent one

Just got to chime in here. I've read post after post on different forums from people that are so horrified about horse slaughter, but I don't see any answers to the current problems coming from those same people. What are we to do with all the unwanted horses? I went to the local auction last month and some of the horses were selling for $5. Some they tried to give away. Many of the horses were skin and bones...............no one wanted them and they were starving. Where are all the "horrified" people that want to save them? Where? I've rescued as many as I can, any more and I won't be able to make my own payments.


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## Beauseant

Silent one said:


> I've read post after post on different forums from people that are so horrified about horse slaughter, but I don't see any answers to the current problems coming from those same people. What are we to do with all the unwanted horses?


I stated some possible options, sans slaughter, a LOOOONNNGGG time ago....

Not going to bother to do it again as this is a discussion I don't usually involve myself in.

Things are the way the are. And people think they way the want to think....

Discussing it endlessly like this isn't going to change a thing, so why immerse yourself in it????

So it's a moot point. 

I only replied to this thread to let celeste know that I support her sentiments.....

not to argue with people whose minds are SET and even if they DID change their viewpoint it wouldn't matter anyhow. Things are what they are.


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## FIREBLADE

Celeste said:


> I started this thread with the title *"Does anybody on this forum like horses?"* The title was changed by a moderator.
> 
> My point was this: Think about the 12 year old girls that could be coming here to learn about horses. Think about how they are being horrified by all the people who eagerly want to promote a fast easy market for substandard horses. I would be mortified if I were a kid that was full of hopes and dreams and love of horses. This forum is overrun with profit seeking people who find horses to be no more than a market commodity.
> 
> I have been accused of trying to start an argument by starting this thread. Well if that is true, it seems that I was successful. The relative lack of people that see problems with slaughter does not show a lack of support for my position. It merely shows that most people that agree with me are not on this forum any longer.


I don't think anyone here is eager to slaughter just understands the necessity of it in some cases. This was the worst year yet for hay production adding to the strain of having horses that are lame or sick or just very old.
Hay prices here have gone way up so people find things to do with horses that would have ended up at the sale.
Right now horses in my area are pretty much worthless nobody is buying you cant give them away and people have tried.
When slaughter was in place horses where always worth something.
I have 3 horses plus struggle with unemployment it makes it hard to find money for what they need but because i love my horses I find the money.
I would love to sell one but nobody right now is buying and for her slaughter isn't an option to me she is a good Horse.


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## BravadoThePony

bubba13 said:


> All right, fine. What is your solution for the horse overpopulation, abuse, neglect, and carcass disposal problem, sans slaughter?


I'd love to see OP's answer to this as well.


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## Cherie

I have been asking the exact same thing for over 5 years now.

We will have another horse sale at the sale barn 3 miles down the road from me on January 9th. They have 2 a month. 50 to 150 head go through every sale and 2/3 or more of them (at least) will go on the trucks to Mexico on Tuesday morning. The rest, mostly registered horses and many that are broke to ride and ride decently, will sell to individuals for $250.00 to $1000.00. They sold a couple of really nice registered horses last sale for $1000.00 each. The one killer buyer is a trader as well and he buys quite a few that he has a guy try the next day to see if he wants to sell them privately or ship them on to Mexico. 

These sales are well attended. There are probably 50 to 75, maybe 100 or more people there at every sale other than the sellers. I go to most sales, at least for a little while, to visit with people that I know and only see at the sales. We sit in the coffee shop or watch a few horses sell and go home. The sales have gotten very depressing. 

Given the fact that there is no one that bids on most of these horses except the 2 slaughter buyers, what do you propose to do. These horses need to be sold or their sellers would not have brought them to the sale. Many are very thin because their owners tried to hang on to them as long as they could, hoping they could find a buyer or could give one free to someone that could afford to feed it. Then, when no one came along to give the horse to, they finally took it to the sale because there is not other place to take it. Again, they extoll all of the horse's virtues hoping against hope that someone other than the slaughter buyer will bid on it. They put their little kids on it and lead it around. Sometimes everyone in the family has tears streaming down their faces. The harsh reality is -- no one wants the horse. It is old, has a big ankle and there is not one bid on it other than the slaughter buyers. It is an unwanted horse -- period.

Now, all of you anti-slaughter people tell me what you want to do so that slaughter is not a necessary evil that is needed. All you have to do is step up on Monday, the 9th and do it. Do your magic and make the killer buyer not have to come to the sale. I would be thrilled along with everyone else around here. [In the meantime, thank goodness they still come to the sale. Without them, hundreds more would be turned out on the county roads or starved to death in some back pasture.] 

I will stay with my assessment. I think we need well-run processing plants right here in the US and with over-sight and safeguards that insure that it is done humanely. Don't tell me that it cannot be done humanely. Horses are raised for meat in Iceland. Their processing plants are built for horses. They encounter no problems of any kind processing horses. There is no reason the same thing cannot be done here. 

Putting a reasonable 'bottom' or 'set-in' price back on horses, will do more to help the horse industry than anything else. The main reason for the terrible unprecedented neglect we are seeing is that low-end horses have lost their value. This has nothing to do with the economy or the over-supply of horses. This loss of value is why back-yard horsemen no longer want to take a chance on a project horse. It is why many owners no longer call a Vet for a cheap horse (they can replace him cheaper if he dies) and why the neglect is so wide-spread. "Why call a Vet for a $300.00 Vet bill when you can replace the horse for $200.00?" I have heard that story a dozen times when people tell me they have a horse with the colic. They went to the Vet and picked up a Banamine shot but will not call the Vet out to tube the horse or give fluids. They can replace the horse cheaper. These things are all a direct result of horses losing their value. 

During the last recession and horse sell-off in the 90s, a fat killer horse was worth $1000.00 +. For several years, 350,000 head were slaughter each year -- but they were fat. People took care of them, used a Vet and you did not see any thin ones. They took care of them because they had not lost their value. This sad state of affairs is just a small part of the 'unintended consequences' of stopping slaughter here in the US.


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## Druydess

Spyder said:


> That is assuming there HAS BEEN a withdrawal period.
> 
> That article seems to imply that it may not have had any withdrawal period if it has been found in the carcass of the horse.
> 
> That is how I read it.


I agree. Profit-motivated businesses really don't have a vested interest in waiting..
If you think the "meat" isn't tainted, your head is firmly in the sand..
Research FDA approved Monsanto in our own country and how it's poisoning our own children with "healthy" milk before assuming horsemeat is "safe" to eat..

Providing a convenient dumping ground for irresponsible horse owners really doesn't address the problem.


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## bubba13

Show me ONE documented case of someone getting sick from "tainted" horsemeat.


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## Druydess

BravadoThePony said:


> I'd love to see OP's answer to this as well.


Responsible horse ownership would be a start.


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## Druydess

Profits over People- once again..
No checks on tainted meat..

Italians Complain to EU that Drug Tainted American Meat Reaching European Consumers | Horse Back Magazine

Tainted US horse meat puts world consumers at risk: welfare body

News Item - Research Shows Tainted Horse Meat Sold to Europeans | EquiMed - Horse Health Matters

BTW- there aren't many "documented" cases of Monsanto's known infection of milk - - - yet either, but some of you will be test cases later..unfortunately.. all "approved" by OUR government..which really begs the question... do you REALLY think what they tell us as far as what is SAFE is worth trusting??


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## Druydess

ETA- It's difficult to track all Cancers, but as an RN, and having worked 20 plus years with Cancer victims, I'm fairly sure horses fed various wormers and other drugs are NOT safe when ingested. And to think big business cares if it's one day or one year when they're slaughtered means one whit to them when they are poisoning our own people - is beyond naive. Is there not enough evidence demonstrating just how little business monitors itself? Horse slaughter is one of the worst. How many tragedies must we witness before we realize ANY business behemoth could give a $h^^ less if we are poisoned by their insidious practices as long as they make millions?
Profits rule this world, and we are nothing but the cogs in that wheel. If we die ingesting chemicals that drove big profit, there'll be other drones to take our places..
Unless we wake up.


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## demonwolfmoon

Druydess said:


> I agree. Profit-motivated businesses really don't have a vested interest in waiting..
> If you think the "meat" isn't tainted, your head is firmly in the sand..
> Research FDA approved Monsanto in our own country and how it's poisoning our own children with "healthy" milk before assuming horsemeat is "safe" to eat..
> 
> Providing a convenient dumping ground for irresponsible horse owners really doesn't address the problem.


So then....why is eating horse meat worse than drinking a cup of ice cold Vitamin D milk?
I'm just wondering what your motivation is here for that statement....


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## Druydess

demonwolfmoon said:


> So then....why is eating horse meat worse than drinking a cup of ice cold Vitamin D milk?
> I'm just wondering what your motivation is here for that statement....


It's probably not if we had any real objective study on the matter, though milk, processed in the US is probably the worst thing you can drink. Our kids being poisoned -vs- us being poisoned - ethically a disputable point- equally deadly in the end. My motivation is that slaughter for horses is not looked at in a factual way, just as much of the "approved" diet/foods are also not scrutinized: appropriately, which thereby deadens us as a whole to what drives our markets.


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## bubba13

demonwolfmoon said:


> So then....why is eating horse meat worse than drinking a cup of ice cold Vitamin D milk?
> I'm just wondering what your motivation is here for that statement....


It's not. Just picking and choosing which rules to follow. As stated previously in this thread, half (or more!) of the things you're exposed to on a daily basis--and not just food items--are dangerous ("has been shown to cause tumors in rats in the state of California....").

Not to mention that the toxins in horsemeat are an entirely moot point in the argument against slaughter should stricter testing regulations be put in place. They can't be used as an example against slaughter _at large_, just slaughter _as it currently stands _(and such regulations will actually be put into place in the new American plants, so that little problem is already being solved). And it's not "our own people" that are being poisoned. It's the consumers overseas. If they educate themselves on the issue, decide it's not worth the risk, and then boycott, the more power to them! Same as we can, if we wish, boycott the dairy industry or whatever. On the other hand, should they come to the conclusion that the claims of dangers are unsubstantiated, they should be allowed to consume as they choose.

Along that vein, the "dangerous" toxins in horsemeat aren't a new thing. They're a decades-old thing that's just now gaining press due to anti-slaughter legislation. If there was going to be a plague of people dying from drug residues in it, it would have surfaced by now.



> It's difficult to track all Cancers, but as an RN, and having worked 20 plus years with Cancer victims, I'm fairly sure horses fed various wormers and other drugs are NOT safe when ingested.


Because you came across patients who got cancer from eating horses who had been dewormed? How does your experience give you expertise on this subject?

Or this:



> Responsible horse ownership would be a start.


Yes, that WOULD fix the problem, wouldn't it? Simple solution; why didn't I think of that? Just tell me....how exactly do you go about enforcing that, when we can't even enforce responsible parenting?


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## Druydess

bubba13 said:


> It's not. And it's not "our own people" that are being poisoned. It's the consumers overseas.


Well, then it's all good..


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## Druydess

bubba13 said:


> :
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that WOULD fix the problem, wouldn't it? Simple solution; why didn't I think of that? Just tell me....how exactly do you go about enforcing that, when we can't even enforce responsible parenting?


Lobotomies..


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## demonwolfmoon

Druydess said:


> It's probably not if we had any real objective study on the matter, though milk, processed in the US is probably the worst thing you can drink. Our kids being poisoned -vs- us being poisoned - ethically a disputable point- equally deadly in the end. *My motivation is that slaughter for horses is not looked at in a factual way, just as much of the "approved" diet/foods are also not scrutinized: appropriately, which thereby deadens us as a whole to what drives our markets.*


Well profit drives America at the moment...there's not another explanation for the way some of the things have been going except for that. I'm not even going to go through all the political/economic drama but...consider the state of our food industry for example.
There have been studies showing that the current fertilizers are not providing us with the same nutrient load (in fruit if I recall correctly) as older more traditional methods of farming...and we're aware that fertilizer runoffs are causing algae blooms and strangling out the aquatic life. But who cares right? We have plenty of stuff to sell... There are thoughts that the hormone levels in the milk we feed our little girls is igniting puberty earlier and earlier... ...
...but who cares, right? As long as we have milk to sell and money to make.
*This is what we have ACCEPTED out of our industries....*

As for horse slaughter....it's all well and good to say Bad! Bad horse owners! But let's be honest: there is a degradation in the sense of responsibility that people have for their actions, and people's sense of "responsibility" towards animals is skewed at best. There are a ton of radicals on both sides of this debate (animal rights etc), and unfortunately it's the animals that suffer.

Impede slaughter in the US? Fine...now horse abuse is up and animals are taking a long road to Mexico instead of at least having a better chance of regulation here. 

Here's the thing though...why are so many people assuming that they will be seeing chevaline steak or whatever in the grocery store freezer aisle....what about dog food? Honestly the market for Horse in the US is probably somewhat limited, I'm going to go ahead and ASSUME that much of it will be for import...and honestly, if they are creating US JOBS then that's another plus at this point.

Personally? The idea of animals being ABUSED makes me sick, and the states that give a slap on the wrist for extreme cruelty make me want to vomit (Nitro's law in Ohio, for example)...but if an animal can be put down humanely and it's flesh used to feed another being, then some good comes of the situation.


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## Druydess

bubba13 said:


> Because you came across patients who got cancer from eating horses who had been dewormed? How does your experience give you expertise on this subject?


That's what those links I posted were for...


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## Druydess

demonwolfmoon said:


> Well profit drives America at the moment...there's not another explanation for the way some of the things have been going except for that. I'm not even going to go through all the political/economic drama but...consider the state of our food industry for example.
> There have been studies showing that the current fertilizers are not providing us with the same nutrient load (in fruit if I recall correctly) as older more traditional methods of farming...and we're aware that fertilizer runoffs are causing algae blooms and strangling out the aquatic life. But who cares right? We have plenty of stuff to sell... There are thoughts that the hormone levels in the milk we feed our little girls is igniting puberty earlier and earlier... ...
> ...but who cares, right? As long as we have milk to sell and money to make.
> *This is what we have ACCEPTED out of our industries....*
> 
> As for horse slaughter....it's all well and good to say Bad! Bad horse owners! But let's be honest: there is a degradation in the sense of responsibility that people have for their actions, and people's sense of "responsibility" towards animals is skewed at best. There are a ton of radicals on both sides of this debate (animal rights etc), and unfortunately it's the animals that suffer.
> 
> Impede slaughter in the US? Fine...now horse abuse is up and animals are taking a long road to Mexico instead of at least having a better chance of regulation here.
> 
> Here's the thing though...why are so many people assuming that they will be seeing chevaline steak or whatever in the grocery store freezer aisle....what about dog food? Honestly the market for Horse in the US is probably somewhat limited, I'm going to go ahead and ASSUME that much of it will be for import...and honestly, if they are creating US JOBS then that's another plus at this point.
> 
> Personally? The idea of animals being ABUSED makes me sick, and the states that give a slap on the wrist for extreme cruelty make me want to vomit (Nitro's law in Ohio, for example)...but if an animal can be put down humanely and it's flesh used to feed another being, then some good comes of the situation.


I agree with much of what you say- which was sorta my point. Be wary of what is deemed "acceptable" as the powers-that-be- define that.

As for creating jobs.. hardly worth it.. a few unskilled workers who could care less if the bolt or the bullet hits the mark. And so they die screaming and in pain. There comes a time when we have to stand up and say it's just not ok. If animals abused makes you sick, visit a horse slaughterhouse someday. You'll be vomiting for weeks.
You'll be forever changed.
I was.


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## demonwolfmoon

Early puberty in girls is linked to higher risks of breast cancer:

"Girls who consumed more (energy-adjusted) animal protein and less vegetable protein at ages 3–5 years had earlier menarche, and girls aged 1–2 years with higher dietary fat intakes and girls aged 6–8 years with higher animal protein intakes became adolescents with earlier peak growth. Controlling for body size, girls who consumed more calories and animal protein 2 years before peak growth had higher peak growth velocity. *These findings may have implications regarding adult diseases whose risks are associated with adolescent growth and development factors*" Relation of Childhood Diet and Body Size to Menarche and Adolescent Growth in Girls

Anyway, as for horse meat and cancer...as a nurse, I'm sure you've read all of the newest things that they say will give us cancer. My favorite is the diet soda I used to down by the 12 pack for YEARS which has been shown to cause...some gnarly tumors in rats. Oh...and I've already had a (benign) tumor removed! Now they say plastics and everything else...isn't it great how technology is giving us cancer?


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## bubba13

I did not watch the 10-minute milk video. I read the links, however. The only reference to a specific diease I saw was the possibility of aplastic anemia in children from phenylbutazone. I thought you were implying a link of cancer that you had deduced from your work in nursing, from this quote:



> It's difficult to track all Cancers, but as an RN, and having worked 20 plus years with Cancer victims, I'm fairly sure horses fed various wormers and other drugs are NOT safe when ingested.


But there is no mention of dewormer or cancers in the article. If you meant something else by your quote, then carry on.


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## bubba13

Druydess, which slaughterhouse did you visit, and when?


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## demonwolfmoon

Druydess said:


> If animals abused makes you sick, visit a horse slaughterhouse someday. You'll be vomiting for weeks.
> You'll be forever changed.
> I was.


Heh, I was a criminal justice major...and now I'm a forensics major. Gotta pick your battles. I've seem the things that people do to eachother, and to animals. If you want nightmares...I can point you at some nightmares. =(

As for animal cruelty...no matter what you do to an animal in some states, you won't get hit with anything higher than a misdemeanor. That was what Nitro's law was about, and last I checked, it had not passed in Ohio. In any case...I don't need a slaughterhouse. Trust me.


----------



## Druydess

demonwolfmoon said:


> Early puberty in girls is linked to higher risks of breast cancer:
> 
> "Girls who consumed more (energy-adjusted) animal protein and less vegetable protein at ages 3–5 years had earlier menarche, and girls aged 1–2 years with higher dietary fat intakes and girls aged 6–8 years with higher animal protein intakes became adolescents with earlier peak growth. Controlling for body size, girls who consumed more calories and animal protein 2 years before peak growth had higher peak growth velocity. *These findings may have implications regarding adult diseases whose risks are associated with adolescent growth and development factors*" Relation of Childhood Diet and Body Size to Menarche and Adolescent Growth in Girls
> 
> Anyway, as for horse meat and cancer...as a nurse, I'm sure you've read all of the newest things that they say will give us cancer. My favorite is the diet soda I used to down by the 12 pack for YEARS which has been shown to cause...some gnarly tumors in rats. Oh...and I've already had a (benign) tumor removed! Now they say plastics and everything else...isn't it great how technology is giving us cancer?


Monsanto is/has been implicated in cancer. And unfortunately, so are many products in our daily life. The point is- if it makes money by your consumerism, it's not going to tell you it's bad for you..
I no longer drink milk. Haven't for 9 years, back when I got a hint of this study as a Nurse. Have had MANY CA cases in young people. Stats are way up. Facts are facts.
No different with horse slaughter.


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## Druydess

demonwolfmoon said:


> Heh, I was a criminal justice major...and now I'm a forensics major. Gotta pick your battles. I've seem the things that people do to eachother, and to animals. If you want nightmares...I can point you at some nightmares. =(
> 
> As for animal cruelty...no matter what you do to an animal in some states, you won't get hit with anything higher than a misdemeanor. That was what Nitro's law was about, and last I checked, it had not passed in Ohio. In any case...I don't need a slaughterhouse. Trust me.


I totally understand. It really is disgusting.


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## Druydess

Humane? Necessary? Really?


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## bubba13

Druydess said:


> Humane? Necessary? Really?
> 
> Horse Slaughter House - YouTube


Wish it said what plant that was at. Just saying "USA" makes me doubt its credibility. If it _is_ an American plant, it's closed now, and the Canadians have better head restraint practices at at least some of their facilities: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-protection/*warning*-graphic*-pasture-plate-video-105343/

That said, I didn't see anything too terrible in the video. The cattle prod was unsettling, but I didn't actually see them use it. The misfiring bolt gun, if that's what was actually shown, is terrible but again could be addressed with a different style of box. The one is the video is inadequate and will not be used in the new American plants, as has been discussed by welfare advocates. The shots of dead horses hanging is unnecessary and only serves to prey on emotions--it has _nothing_ to do with animal welfare or humane treatment. I wish the horses could be kept calmer throughout the process, but I'm not certain how that could be accomplished...although I hear Temple Grandin is working on it.

Necessary? Unfortunately, yes, it still is.


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## Druydess

Study Shows No Increase in Equine Abuse Following Closure of Horse Slaughterhouses | Animal Law Coalition

Bubba- had the pleasure of visiting Texas a while back.. Fort Worth where the Beltex Corporation made lots of money killing our equine friends in a highly revolting way.. hope you have the same pleasure in the future..


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## Druydess

bubba13 said:


> Wish it said what plant that was at. Just saying "USA" makes me doubt its credibility. If it _is_ an American plant, it's closed now, and the Canadians have better head restraint practices at at least some of their facilities: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-protection/*warning*-graphic*-pasture-plate-video-105343/
> 
> That said, I didn't see anything too terrible in the video. The cattle prod was unsettling, but I didn't actually see them use it. The misfiring bolt gun, if that's what was actually shown, is terrible but again could be addressed with a different style of box. The one is the video is inadequate and will not be used in the new American plants, as has been discussed by welfare advocates. The shots of dead horses hanging is unnecessary and only serves to prey on emotions--it has _nothing_ to do with animal welfare or humane treatment. I wish the horses could be kept calmer throughout the process, but I'm not certain how that could be accomplished...although I hear Temple Grandin is working on it.
> 
> Necessary? Unfortunately, yes, it still is.


Well- if you see nothing TOO terrible..guess there's not much to discuss..that was one of the nicer ones..
Perhaps you missed the repeated firing of nails into horses thrashing??


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## bubba13

Regarding Monsanto milk:

Genetic Roulette Claim: Milk from rbG H-treated cows may increase risk of cancer and other diseases | Academics Review
http://www.ads.uga.edu/documents/rbstexpertpaper-6.26.09-final.pdf
snopes.com: Wal-Mart Milk and rBST
Don’t Cry Over rBST Milk - New York Times


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## bubba13

Druydess said:


> Well- if you see nothing TOO terrible..guess there's not much to discuss..that was one of the nicer ones..
> Perhaps you missed the repeated firing of nails into horses thrashing??


Hard to see what was going on and thus best not to draw conclusions. I saw one that looked like a miss, and addressed it. The others--couldn't tell. Even a dead horse can and will thrash. I've seen videos of long dead and decapitated calves jumping all over the place.


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## demonwolfmoon

Druydess....I guess the thing is, unless you are a complete vegan, I don't understand why you're making a big issue of HORSE slaughter. The thing is, you can find screw ups (I wince saying that) in probably every slaughter house. =/
Unless the people who are so adamant about stopping the complete HORROR of slaughtering horses are also advocating for ceasing slaughter of ALL ANIMALS for the purposes of human consumption, then what they are saying smacks strongly of hypocrisy.


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## bubba13

Druydess said:


> Study Shows No Increase in Equine Abuse Following Closure of Horse Slaughterhouses | Animal Law Coalition
> 
> Bubba- had the pleasure of visiting Texas a while back.. Fort Worth where the Beltex Corporation made lots of money killing our equine friends in a highly revolting way.. hope you have the same pleasure in the future..


Statistics can be manipulated in any direction: Surge in Abandoned Horses Renews Debate Over Slaughterhouses - NYTimes.com

HOWEVER, I have never been greatly convinced by the "increase in neglect" pro-slaughter arguments. Because, well, we're still slaughtering nearly the same number of horses....they're just going to Canada and Mexico. Close the borders to slaughter without re-opening US plants, and see what happens to the neglect numbers....


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

Living in the west the last several years.. and the lack of slaughter available is a sad thing. People just let their horses loose in the desert. TO starve. All the pro wild horse people think that wild horses live this great life running free on the range but its very feast and famine... every wild horse ive seen in the area has had a poor condition score. 

When slaughter first closed down i recall a man binding his mares legs and blindfolding her along with her freshly born foal.. and pushing them over the side of a bridge to die. guess what. they didnt die instantly and laid there suffering in a half frozen rive for nearly a day before they were humanely killed. I also personally know of another instance where a man couldnt get rid of a mare for FREE that he didnt want anymore and tied it to a post in a paddock to starve it to death. by the time she was found she was too far gone and had to be euthanized. That is the kind of thing that happens without the option for slaughter.

While I personally would never send a horse of mine to slaughter. I know that slaughter has its place. In recent livestock auctions in town goats were going for 50.00 and horses for 25.00. Slaughter coming back WILL bring back up horses prices... even if your not happy at the way it is done... and it will give an option for those who need to get rid of their older or lame horses who are no longer useful for riding.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> Living in the west the last several years.. and the lack of slaughter available is a sad thing. People just let their horses loose in the desert. TO starve. All the pro wild horse people think that wild horses live this great life running free on the range but its very feast and famine... every wild horse ive seen in the area has had a poor condition score.
> 
> When slaughter first closed down i recall a man binding his mares legs and blindfolding her along with her freshly born foal.. and pushing them over the side of a bridge to die. guess what. they didnt die instantly and laid there suffering in a half frozen rive for nearly a day before they were humanely killed. I also personally know of another instance where a man couldnt get rid of a mare for FREE that he didnt want anymore and tied it to a post in a paddock to starve it to death. by the time she was found she was too far gone and had to be euthanized. That is the kind of thing that happens without the option for slaughter.
> 
> While I personally would never send a horse of mine to slaughter. I know that slaughter has its place. In recent livestock auctions in town goats were going for 50.00 and horses for 25.00. Slaughter coming back WILL bring back up horses prices... even if your not happy at the way it is done... and it will give an option for those who need to get rid of their older or lame horses who are no longer useful for riding.


The story about the man pushing them off a bridge is horrible. Sadly though, there's tons of sad stories (while maybe not exactly like that :shock these days. I don't live where there are any wild herds but I see many sick, starving, unwanted horses on a regular basis. I get phone calls, usually at least once a week, offering me free horses. 

I know more than one person that's woke up to extra horses in their pasture. I judged one show this summer and was talking to their saddle club president who had 2 days before went out to 5 new horses in hers with a note left on her door saying "We can't take care of them anymore and are out of options. We knew you would help them." 

I've also seen the same at auctions where the meat goats go for substantially higher amounts than most of the horses. 

There are a lot of factors in the sad state of the horse market right now, our general economy being the biggest - folks just can't afford them. Lack of slaughter options only served to increase the amount of unwanted/unusable stock.


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## wyominggrandma

Or the guy who took his horse in the trailer, took it out of the trailer, let his dogs attack the horse while tied up, then shot it.. Not nicely I might add.
And back to the same thing, animals, ALL animals have reactions after being shot in the head. They are brain dead at that point, but muscles and nerves still are "moving" until the heart is done beating. Probably the only way to stop the heart immediately which would prevent involuntary movement is a heart shot, and that one would really cause problems for a clean shot. Brain dead is just that, the brain is dead which means the horse or any animal no longer feels pain. Movement, thrashing, etc happens, but not pain. 
( Unfortunately there are many humans who have to decide to pull a plug on a brain dead person and that person will make unvolentary movements before and after, but feel no pain.)
If you want to be so against horse slaughter, then so be it, but I bet you eat chickens, turkeys, cows and fish and they all have to die also.
Like someone else pointed out in one of the many many many threads of horse slaughter, its only called horse SLAUGHTER by the bleeding hearts when the other animals that the same bleeding hearts eat are killed in the same means but SLAUGHTER is not used. Funny how that works.


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## Celeste

Before all the restrictions on milk (according to an article in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association), over 100,000 children died each year in the U.S.A. due to drinking milk. There is extensive inspection of milk products at every step of the way from the farm to the store. 

All that has been provide for in the current budget for horse inspection is money for inspectors to visually inspect the horses. They just look at them. These animals will only be condemned from the human food supply if they have an obvious physical problem, such as an abscess that is pouring pus all over the floor. There is no money provided for testing for trace amounts of phenylbutazone.

There was neglect long before the slaughter houses were closed. I did then what I do now. I called the state department of agriculture and they sent an inspector to come pick the horse up. They still do. I have had death threats for years for reporting starved out animals. I continue to report them. In my area, there are less cases because they know they will be prosecuted because responsible citizens will report them. It is illegal to abuse animals in the state of Georgia. Do all offenders get caught? No. Does prosecution help? Yes.

Neglect is not happening due to lack of slaughter. It is happening due to the horrendous state of the economy. All the American jobs went to China and India. I am sure that those people appreciate the money, but with 10% unemployment, our people can't afford luxuries such as horses any more. Until our economy is better, people will have problems taking care of horses. You want to save our horses? Bring back jobs. 

By the way, most of my protein comes from home grown eggs. I do eat some USDA inspected milk products and some occasional meat.


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## Celeste

wyominggrandma said:


> Or the guy who took his horse in the trailer, took it out of the trailer, let his dogs attack the horse while tied up, then shot it.. Not nicely I might add..


This is a crime punishable by prison time.


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## Celeste

One poster complains that horses are selling for $5. Another complains that slaughter horses are selling for only $250. That was in Oklahoma if I recall. 

To all you pro-slaughter people - why don't you buy up all the $5 horses, take them to the $250 sale barn and take the $245 dollar profit.


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## wyominggrandma

I could ask the same question to all the anti slaughter bleeding hearts who are against slaughter : why not buy up all the old, dying, injured and sick horses and keep them for their entire lives?
This is just about as ridiculous a question as yours above Celeste.


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## Cherie

The only reason a fat, healthy horse is bringing 2-300.00 here is because we are less than one day's trailer journey to the Mexico border.

The local sale barn owner gets calls all of the time from people in the middle part or SE part of the country that want to bring horses to this sale to get rid of them. He tells them not to come since he cannot guarantee that the slaughter buyers will be here on any given sale day. He also no longer accepts colts or very thin horses. They turn them away at the gate because they won't bring the cost of the Coggins test, minimum commission and yardage. It is only the ones in good shape that bring $300.00.

For everyone's information, I was right here during the last recession and great horse sell-off of the 90s. It was much worse here in Oklahoma then than now. Unemployment in southern OK reached 14% and stayed above 10% for 4 years. This was when all of the manufacturing plants in southern OK closed, oil dropped to $10.00 a barrel and Reaganomics killed the so called 'hobby farming' laws (you know, the ones that put Willie Nelson in debt $2,000,000.00 for taxes). 350,000 horses went to slaughter each year for several years. That is where the numbers would be now if there weren't so many horses dying of starvation in back pastures.

Through all of that, horses received far better care and feed than now and very few thin ones went through the sales. The only difference is that horses maintained a high 'value'. Sad to say, but people will take a lot better care of a horse that is worth $1000.00 than a horse that is worth $50.00. The Veterinary Clinic near here told me that their horse related income dropped over 75% when horses lost their value. Most people with low-end saddle horses know they can buy as good or better one for the cost of the Vet call -- so they just have a "He'll have to live or die." attitude. I have 4-H kids whose parents tell us that. Their horse went lame, so instead of taking it to the Vet, they just took it to the sale and bought another one for $50.00 more than their lame one brought. A Vet bill would have cost a lot more and maybe the horse would not get better anyway.

This is the culture that has come out of the depressed horse market. Horses need a value if people are going to take care of them.


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## bsms

Celeste said:


> ...To all you pro-slaughter people - why don't you buy up all the $5 horses, take them to the $250 sale barn and take the $245 dollar profit.


Shipping them from a $5 market to the $250 market would kill your profit. Otherwise, it WOULD be done.

I was given a horse a few weeks back. Plus tack. Plus delivery. 14 years old & sound. Yes, I agreed not to sell him for slaughter, but I doubt that could be enforced legally.


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## bubba13

I spent all summer giving away (or selling cheap) broke, registered, colored, well-conformed horses. I screened homes the best I could, but it was a pretty dire situation and I would not be surprised if several of them end up in the kill pen. Which makes me sick, but I had no other options. The owner wanted them gone, and no one else would even help place them, let alone take them....

The "rescues" around here, too, frequently have horses in pretty poor condition standing in small muddy pens, because that's all they can afford. I'm not sure that's much better.


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## Celeste

bsms said:


> Shipping them from a $5 market to the $250 market would kill your profit. Otherwise, it WOULD be done.


10 horses X $245 = $2450 which will pay for a lot of fuel.
Make it 20 horses. 40.


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## demonwolfmoon

Celeste said:


> By the way, most of my protein comes from home grown eggs. I do eat some USDA inspected milk products and some occasional meat.


_*"Among the routes of human exposure to estrogens, we are mostly concerned about cow's milk, which contains considerable amounts of female sex hormones," Ganmaa told her audience. Dairy, she added, accounts for 60 percent to 80 percent of estrogens consumed.

Part of the problem seems to be milk from modern dairy farms, where cows are milked about 300 days a year. For much of that time, the cows are pregnant. The later in pregnancy a cow is, the more hormones appear in her milk.*_
Hormones in milk can be dangerous
"*One study compared diet and cancer rates in 42 counties. It showed that milk and cheese consumption are strongly correlated to the incidence of testicular cancer among men ages 20 to 39. Rates were highest in places like Switzerland and Denmark, where cheese is a national food, and lowest in Algeria and other countries where dairy is not so widely consumed.

Cancer rates linked to dairy can change quickly, said Ganmaa. In the past 50 years in Japan, she said, rising rates of dairy consumption are linked with rising death rates from prostate cancer - from near zero per 100,000 five decades ago to 7 per 100,000 today."*

ETS: The article states that cows were not always milked this way (pregnant all the time) and are not milked this way in traditional herding societies, giving far less estrogen in the milk.

Oh, and lest we forget beef:
"U.S. standards on beef are lax, inspector general says


April 14, 2010|From Dugald McConnell, CNN


The U.S. government is not fully guarding against the contamination of meat by traces of antibiotics, pesticides or heavy metals, a new report warns.

The U.S. Department of Agriculture's inspector general said federal agencies have *failed to set limits on many potentially harmful chemical residues, which "has resulted in meat with these substances being distributed in commerce."

When it comes to pesticide traces, only one type is tested for, according to the report. There are also no set limits for some heavy metals, like copper."
*
U.S. standards on beef are lax, inspector general says - CNN

So again, if your arguments of med or chemical tainted HORSE meat is also valid for OTHER animal based foods in the US...then your argument is flawed. What is your argument based on then, other than emotion?


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## Celeste

To my knowledge, slaughter and/or consumption has never been against federal law. The funding for USDA inspection was withdrawn.


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## demonwolfmoon

demonwolfmoon said:


> So again, if your arguments of med or chemical tainted HORSE meat is also valid for OTHER animal based foods in the US...then your argument is flawed. What is your argument based on then, other than emotion?


Care to take that one on, OP?


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## bubba13

Then why did you say:



bubba13 said:


> Horses have BEEN food animals all along, so how exactly will this change things?





Celeste said:


> Not legally in the USA. Perhaps in Australia.........


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## Celeste

They are not technically considered food animals; slaughter is just not prohibited.
A food animal by definition species has restrictions on drugs that may be used on that animal. It is a matter of what the primary use of the animal is considered to be. If horses legally become food animals, then there will be more and more restrictions on their use. 

For example, before a commercial broiler (chicken) grower can get a loan to put in a chicken house, local water and soil must be tested and proven to be free of chemicals such as DDT. 

Antiinflamatory drugs, antibiotics, hormones, parasiticides, and other drugs are all carefully controlled in animals that are considered to be food animals because the consumer has a legal right to a safe product. 

Using a horse as a food animal has always been considered a secondary or incidental use of the animal rather than the primary use. I am surprised that people will buy American horse meat because it is contaminated as a rule.


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## bubba13

And they police all off-label use of livestock drugs? I know for a fact that they do not, and that cattle get things they shouldn't. No way to check and regulate all that--none. Just the same as "not for horses intended for human consumption" supplements are fed to equines who are later auctioned.


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## demonwolfmoon

Celeste said:


> I am surprised that people will buy American horse meat because it is contaminated as a rule.


1) Prove it.

2) Prove that *if* 1 is true, that 1 will still be true after increased regulation.


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## Spyder

Celeste said:


> I am surprised that people will buy American horse meat because it is contaminated as a rule.



Ha...didn't you know.

It is Canada's secret plan to get all Americans sick so we Canadians can sneak into their country...carrying our home made bombs disguised as cupcakes and TAKE OVER THE WORLD. :rofl::rofl:











Hahahahahahehehehehe

:happydance::happydance::happydance::happydance:


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## Druydess

demonwolfmoon said:


> Druydess....I guess the thing is, unless you are a complete vegan, I don't understand why you're making a big issue of HORSE slaughter. The thing is, you can find screw ups (I wince saying that) in probably every slaughter house. =/
> Unless the people who are so adamant about stopping the complete HORROR of slaughtering horses are also advocating for ceasing slaughter of ALL ANIMALS for the purposes of human consumption, then what they are saying smacks strongly of hypocrisy.


It's very simple. I have seen how inhumane it is. I have seen horses legs being sawed off while they were clearly alive. I have seen hundreds of deaths and understand exactly what the death process is. I know the difference between reflexes and painful attempts to evade torture.
If we as a society choose to turn a blind eye to the inhumanity of animal abuse and torture for our own convenience and profit, I have little faith in the evolution of our race and ethics as people. 
Just because some deem slaughter necessary does not absolve them of the duty to recognize when it is being carried out cruelly, arrogantly, and with little compassion or thought as to what is right.
If people really saw first hand what goes on in these death pits, they'd likely have a better understanding. However, most are content not to think much about it as it "happens" elsewhere...out of sight and mind.
Personally, I as a human being, can not, and will not support an industry that epitomizes abuse, cruelty, and blatant disregard of respect for life, as well as little regard for effects of possible chemical contamination. It's a personal stand that morally I have no choice but to take.


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## wyominggrandma

Have you ever watched a HUMANE society destroy dogs druydes? Euthanasias go wrong all the time when they are trying to kill so many dogs in one day.. How about the chambers some still use, they throw the dogs in while sedated, if it hasn't worn off, and the dogs and cats die horrible deaths. 
Do you not care about cows? Have you watched them die also? Dying, when done by humans is mostly fast and quick, but mistakes happen. Dying by starving to death is not exactly pleasant. Nor is a broken horse death by herd mates pleasant either. 
You are saying over and over that you have seen hundreds of horses die, while their legs are being cut off while alive, tortured, etc.. This was done where? You witnessed it? Did you do something while this was happening or did you just watch? Did you report this to the state where this happened?
I am glad you are so against horse slaughter. Do you happen to have the money and land to support the horses nobody else can take care of? I take care of my animals, but could not afford to take care of someone elses sick, dying or injured horse. Guess you must be lucky to be so fortunate to be able to condemn the rest of us lowly humans who feel horse slaughter is a necessity.
In a perfect world killing of all animals would be pretty and perfect, but it won't happen in our lifetimes.


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## Druydess

wyominggrandma said:


> Have you ever watched a HUMANE society destroy dogs druydes? Euthanasias go wrong all the time when they are trying to kill so many dogs in one day.. How about the chambers some still use, they throw the dogs in while sedated, if it hasn't worn off, and the dogs and cats die horrible deaths.
> Do you not care about cows? Have you watched them die also? Dying, when done by humans is mostly fast and quick, but mistakes happen. Dying by starving to death is not exactly pleasant. Nor is a broken horse death by herd mates pleasant either.
> You are saying over and over that you have seen hundreds of horses die, while their legs are being cut off while alive, tortured, etc.. This was done where? You witnessed it? Did you do something while this was happening or did you just watch? Did you report this to the state where this happened?
> I am glad you are so against horse slaughter. Do you happen to have the money and land to support the horses nobody else can take care of? I take care of my animals, but could not afford to take care of someone elses sick, dying or injured horse. Guess you must be lucky to be so fortunate to be able to condemn the rest of us lowly humans who feel horse slaughter is a necessity.
> In a perfect world killing of all animals would be pretty and perfect, but it won't happen in our lifetimes.


WGrandma,

There is really no need for such anger. This is my moral choice and if you feel comfortable with yours, that's up to you. I simply am not ok with how horses are slaughtered and how much money is made from their brutalization resulting form preventable situations.
Yes, I am aware of the dog and cat gassing, though that really isn't the topic at hand. If it were my animal, gassing is definitely prefered over attempting to nail a moving horse in the head. I have had to put some of my own animals down as well. My cats are always kept inside and altered. I encourage all I know to alter their animals. A friend of mine has an animal rescue and we handle and fix many cats and dogs. So, I DO address what I can and change it as I am able.
I did not say I've seen hundreds of horses die.. I have been present for hundreds of HUMAN deaths, and some animals. Much of my job is to manage dying people. I made that statement as someone assumed I might not know the difference between reflexes and death throes.
Reporting abuse to the state re: a slaughterhouse is akin to telling the fox the chickens are being abused. The state knew what was going on and didn't care. Kickbacks do amazing things for morality. I suppose I could have wrestled the guy with the machete to the ground, but it didn't seem like a bright idea at the time. However, the power of the pen and influencing legislation IS something I did, which apparently had some effect.
I have taken in rescues, support charities, and will continue to provide whatever help I can. There are 2 new rescues at the barn now. I will use my time, my vote, and my money to exact change at every opportunity. One doesn't need to rich and have acres of land to right a wrong.
What I condemn is inhuman behavior and our acceptance of it.


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## Kimmylikestojump

If there are so many that are anti-slaughter, why spend time debating milk contaminants and instead, take to pen and paper. Write everyone that you can and tell them that you want the USDA to truly enforce a humane slaughterhouse. What does it matter who is pro-slaughter or anti-slaughter? In the end, horses are still going to be slaughtered, why not do everything in your power to make sure that their death is as easy as one can be?


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## bsms

Druydess said:


> It's very simple. I have seen how inhumane it is. I have seen horses legs being sawed off while they were clearly alive...


Did you file animal abuse charges?

Arizona law : 2. "Cruel mistreatment" means to torture or otherwise inflict unnecessary serious physical injury upon an animal or to kill an animal in a manner that causes protracted suffering to the animal.

"Reporting abuse to the state re: a slaughterhouse is akin to telling the fox the chickens are being abused. The state knew what was going on and didn't care. Kickbacks do amazing things for morality. I suppose I could have wrestled the guy with the machete to the ground, but it didn't seem like a bright idea at the time."

Newspapers? Humane Society?


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## Celeste

Methods of euthanasia for dogs and cats are regulated by the individual states. In Georgia, no pets are put in a gas chamber. They are killed by lethal injection, and state inspectors check each facility including pounds, shelters, and veterinary hospitals to be sure. I have been inspected. They do show up. They do look at your facilities. If someone had a gas chamber, they would be shut down. 

Also, if in the state of Georgia, if a veterinarian were to kill a horse with a nail or by cutting its throat, they would probably lose their license and serve prison time.


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## bubba13

Druydess said:


> It's very simple. I have seen how inhumane it is. I have seen horses legs being sawed off while they were clearly alive. I have seen hundreds of deaths and understand exactly what the death process is. I know the difference between reflexes and painful attempts to evade torture.
> If we as a society choose to turn a blind eye to the inhumanity of animal abuse and torture for our own convenience and profit, I have little faith in the evolution of our race and ethics as people.
> Just because some deem slaughter necessary does not absolve them of the duty to recognize when it is being carried out cruelly, arrogantly, and with little compassion or thought as to what is right.
> If people really saw first hand what goes on in these death pits, they'd likely have a better understanding. However, most are content not to think much about it as it "happens" elsewhere...out of sight and mind.


The plant you saw, if you even saw what you claim, is now closed. Unless you have visited the Canadian plants (some of which have received glowing reviews from equine welfare organizations) or the not-yet-opened new American plants, your past experience is irrelevant to the current debate. _I have_, however, seen horses die of neglect. Horrible, horrible things. The stunted, starving two-year-old filly who busted through a barbed wire fence and had a stillborn foal in the middle of the road. The two geldings who slowly wasted away over months from founder, with open sores on their sides and pus oozing around their coronary bands from holes inches deep as their hooves rotted from the inside out. And I have seen the authorities do absolutely nothing about it when the conditions are reported. 

Do you think anyone here _likes _slaughter? Really? I used to be against it, and then I grew up. Had a wake-up call. Humane issues should and must be addressed, of course, and they _will_ be addressed at the new plants. Temple Grandin and others are working on it. A huge part of the reason for re-opening the US plants, keep in mind, is to spare horses from the horrors of Mexico!



> Personally, I as a human being, can not, and will not support an industry that epitomizes abuse, cruelty, and blatant disregard of respect for life, as well as little regard for effects of possible chemical contamination. It's a personal stand that morally I have no choice but to take.


So you can pat yourself on the back for your moral superiority over all us heathens. That's great. Good for you!

Problem is, you're doing absolutely nothing to solve the problem except criticizng others for their beliefs.

Me, I've bought and rehabbed horses that would have probably (certainly, in one case) gone to the killer otherwise. As they are my responsibility, I refuse to sell mine (even the ones I don't particularly like) so that I know they are living excellent lives; were I for some reason to sell one, I would screen homes diligently and settle for less money if that was the only way I could guarantee a responsible owner. I train mine so that they have value, should catastrophe strike, but they are also protected with a stipulation in my parents' will. Over the past few years, I have spent approximately $10,000 on vet bills....just for *two* of my horses' *soundness problems* alone. That's not counting routine shots, dental, other minor cuts and lamenesses, or farriery....or feed, supplements, bedding, or anything else. And that wasn't even so I could compete on them. It was for the comfort and quality of life of two valueless retirees. That money would have bought me a new horse several times over, or I would have certainly preferred to either save it or spend it on myself, rather than giving it to the vet...

I also do my part by not contributing to the overpopulation problem. I have two pretty nice mares, and I'd love to have a baby out of them, but I don't breed because I feel that would be irresponsible.

So don't you or others _dare_ assume some level of superiority. I put my money where my mouth is. Do you? If you are so concerned about horse slaughter, what are you doing to solve the overpopulation problem that makes it necessary in the first place (in short, what about your stallion and pregnant mares....?)?


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## bubba13

Celeste said:


> Also, if in the state of Georgia, if a veterinarian were to kill a horse with a nail or by cutting its throat, they would probably lose their license and serve prison time.


I don't know why it's being called a nail. It's not a nail. It's a captive bolt. Which is an AVMA accepted form of euthanasia (albeit far preferably when the animal's head is restrained--but people are aware of the problem and the plants are being designed to address it).


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## Celeste

" .....open sores on their sides and pus oozing around their coronary bands from holes inches deep as their hooves rotted from the inside out..... "

Horses like these are not candidates for slaughter. They would be condemned. They might be shot at the plant, but they are not edible for humans. I do not say this without authority. I worked as a finaling veterinarian at a slaughter plant for horses and hogs. I have had extensive training in meat inspection. You cannot process diseased and dying animals for food.


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## bubba13

Celeste said:


> " .....open sores on their sides and pus oozing around their coronary bands from holes inches deep as their hooves rotted from the inside out..... "
> 
> Horses like these are not candidates for slaughter. They would be condemned. They might be shot at the plant, but they are not edible for humans. I do not say this without authority. I worked as a finaling veterinarian at a slaughter plant for horses and hogs. I have had extensive training in meat inspection. You cannot process diseased and dying animals for food.


They should have been euthanized, rehomed, or as a last resort slaughtered long before they got to that point if the owner was unable or unwilling to care for them. In this case, if the owner had been willing to sell the one gelding privately she would have--but no takers. I begged her to euthanize him when she took me down to see how much he had "improved" and I realized how bad the situation had gotten; he died the following day.


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## demonwolfmoon

*None of the Anti-Slaughter advocates have explained why it's ok for a cow or pig to suffer "inhumane" deaths FOR THEIR DINNER TABLE, but it's not ok for a horse to be butchered in the same manner.*

WHY IS IT OK ? _Please explain what makes a horse different from the countless bacon slices you've eaten? _Are pigs less deserving of your advocacy? And what about battery hens...? Where do your breakfast eggs come from?

And this is my point...if you still eat meat, or meat you didn't raise yourself, and your meat didn't die of natural causes, you are being hypocritical. Please, as others have said, put your money where your mouth is, AND FIND ANOTHER SOLUTION. 
I do rescue domestic cats and have rescued wildlife...so many people don't give a S#$% about the suffering of animals...and too many others do things like...I don't know, getting slaughter plants shut down, then turning a blind eye to the plight of horses left to DIE in parking lots. Where's your solution? It's one thing to say...oh, regulate, fine, send them to the rescues. But what about when the rescues are full? What about when AC officers turn a blind eye to anything but a dead horse (which I've read in other threads). And while you're complaining about the plight of horses...WHAT ABOUT all the dogs and cats being ABANDONED at kill shelters? Or do we only care that the pretty ponies are being sent to the big bad carnivores' grocery store? 

Seriously.
Priorities. ...start by not buying from backyard breeders, encourage your friends that no, their ugly mare/stallion does NOT need to have one CUTE baby...or figure out a way to make their deaths humane and cost effective. While you're at it, try not to poison our groundwater...

/end rant


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## Celeste

Bubba, that person was criminally negligent either through ignorance or through intent. It is sad. There have always been idiots out there that will not take care of their animals. They do not want to spend money on them. They should never have animals at all.


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## demonwolfmoon

Celeste said:


> Bubba, that person was criminally negligent either through ignorance or through intent. It is sad. There have always been idiots out there that will not take care of their animals. They do not want to spend money on them. They should never have animals at all.


AGREED. There are a lot of horribly ignorant people in this world who should not be allowed to have animals. Sadly, there's not much we can do about it. =/

The lady I got my horse from had a kitten with a hernia LITERALLY the size of a baseball protruding from his side. I asked (hoping) if/when she was going to get it taken care of...and was told she "couldn't see spending that much money on a cat".

=(


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## Celeste

I have personally spayed and neutered thousands of dogs and cats. I have done a lot of them for free. I have rescued many dogs, cats, horses, wild orphaned animals, baby birds, turtles with broken shells...... the list goes on. I own seven horses, 5 of which are way over 20 years old. They will be fed and cared for until they either die peacefully or I humanely put them down to prevent suffering. 

I raise my own eggs. When the chickens get too old to lay, I will feed them for the rest of their lives as well. Don't say I don't care because you don't have a clue.


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## demonwolfmoon

Celeste said:


> I have personally spayed and neutered thousands of dogs and cats. I have done a lot of them for free. I have rescued many dogs, cats, horses, wild orphaned animals, baby birds, turtles with broken shells...... the list goes on. I own seven horses, 5 of which are way over 20 years old. They will be fed and cared for until they either die peacefully or I humanely put them down to prevent suffering.
> 
> I raise my own eggs. When the chickens get too old to lay, I will feed them for the rest of their lives as well. Don't say I don't care because you don't have a clue.


Well, it's good you do those things. But clearly *you* don't think it's enough, otherwise you wouldn't be complaining about the rest of us and what we don't do.

Here we are: YOU are in position to assist in spaying and neutering dogs and cats. 

Do you also assist in the stray capture and alter programs? Because...those strays can die a really foul death in the snow. I, not having the resources you do, can only take in so many cats. I currently have TEN of them in the house, one of which is hitching a ride to California later this weekend to be with a friend of mine. All my cats and dogs are altered. Until the last two, I paid out of pocket for each and every one, even the rescues.

So great, I helped, and you have helped much more because you are in the POSITION TO DO SO.

Now: What are you doing about the pork/cow/chicken slaughter plants? *Do they or do they not have "incidents' where the animal suffers due to their human mistake?* These are simple questions: Do mishaps happen, causing animal suffering in Pork/Beef/Chicken slaughterhouses? And what are you doing about it?

I'm going to go ahead and assume you are still a part of the supply and demand cycle for these companies, since you have carefully not mentioned it.


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## Druydess

demonwolfmoon said:


> *None of the Anti-Slaughter advocates have explained why it's ok for a cow or pig to suffer "inhumane" deaths FOR THEIR DINNER TABLE, but it's not ok for a horse to be butchered in the same manner.*
> 
> WHY IS IT OK ? _Please explain what makes a horse different from the countless bacon slices you've eaten? _Are pigs less deserving of your advocacy? And what about battery hens...? Where do your breakfast eggs come from?
> 
> And this is my point...if you still eat meat, or meat you didn't raise yourself, and your meat didn't die of natural causes, you are being hypocritical. Please, as others have said, put your money where your mouth is, AND FIND ANOTHER SOLUTION.
> I do rescue domestic cats and have rescued wildlife...so many people don't give a S#$% about the suffering of animals...and too many others do things like...I don't know, getting slaughter plants shut down, then turning a blind eye to the plight of horses left to DIE in parking lots. Where's your solution? It's one thing to say...oh, regulate, fine, send them to the rescues. But what about when the rescues are full? What about when AC officers turn a blind eye to anything but a dead horse (which I've read in other threads). And while you're complaining about the plight of horses...WHAT ABOUT all the dogs and cats being ABANDONED at kill shelters? Or do we only care that the pretty ponies are being sent to the big bad carnivores' grocery store?
> 
> Seriously.
> Priorities. ...start by not buying from backyard breeders, encourage your friends that no, their ugly mare/stallion does NOT need to have one CUTE baby...or figure out a way to make their deaths humane and cost effective. While you're at it, try not to poison our groundwater...
> 
> /end rant


My eggs come from my chickens.. another choice I made not to buy into the system.

I've already addressed what I do to improve the situation, including cats and dogs.


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## NdAppy

And you two are _*still *_overlooking the questions directed at you about the slaughter of pigs and cattle and why they are apparently regarded as less than horses....


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## Druydess

demonwolfmoon said:


> Well, it's good you do those things. But clearly *you* don't think it's enough, otherwise you wouldn't be complaining about the rest of us and what we don't do.
> 
> Here we are: YOU are in position to assist in spaying and neutering dogs and cats.
> 
> Do you also assist in the stray capture and alter programs? Because...those strays can die a really foul death in the snow. I, not having the resources you do, can only take in so many cats. I currently have TEN of them in the house, one of which is hitching a ride to California later this weekend to be with a friend of mine. All my cats and dogs are altered. Until the last two, I paid out of pocket for each and every one, even the rescues.
> 
> So great, I helped, and you have helped much more because you are in the POSITION TO DO SO.
> 
> Now: What are you doing about the pork/cow/chicken slaughter plants? *Do they or do they not have "incidents' where the animal suffers due to their human mistake?* These are simple questions: Do mishaps happen, causing animal suffering in Pork/Beef/Chicken slaughterhouses? And what are you doing about it?
> 
> I'm going to go ahead and assume you are still a part of the supply and demand cycle for these companies, since you have carefully not mentioned it.


I didn't realize it was up to me to solve all of these problems, and since I haven't my other efforts are marginalized. I have also addressed legislation for the other causes, buy organic, grow my own food, and some of my own meat, and bring abuse to light.

Lots of assumptions you made there.. and unfounded.

The entire point of my post is that horses are killed inhumanely and it is my moral choice not to support that. I can't even fathom why one's personal choice and conviction is more important to attack than actually see that they are killed brutally as a rule.


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## Druydess

Celeste said:


> I have personally spayed and neutered thousands of dogs and cats. I have done a lot of them for free. I have rescued many dogs, cats, horses, wild orphaned animals, baby birds, turtles with broken shells...... the list goes on. I own seven horses, 5 of which are way over 20 years old. They will be fed and cared for until they either die peacefully or I humanely put them down to prevent suffering.
> 
> I raise my own eggs. When the chickens get too old to lay, I will feed them for the rest of their lives as well. Don't say I don't care because you don't have a clue.


Ditto.. LOL-- on the rescuing and healing just about every kind of critter.


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## Druydess

bsms said:


> Did you file animal abuse charges?
> 
> Arizona law : 2. "Cruel mistreatment" means to torture or otherwise inflict unnecessary serious physical injury upon an animal or to kill an animal in a manner that causes protracted suffering to the animal.
> 
> "Reporting abuse to the state re: a slaughterhouse is akin to telling the fox the chickens are being abused. The state knew what was going on and didn't care. Kickbacks do amazing things for morality. I suppose I could have wrestled the guy with the machete to the ground, but it didn't seem like a bright idea at the time."
> 
> Newspapers? Humane Society?


Yes, and nothing was done about it.


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## Kimmylikestojump

I find that very hard to believe. The HSUS is always on the look out for big time stories.


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## Druydess

Kimmylikestojump said:


> I find that very hard to believe. The HSUS is always on the look out for big time stories.


If you don't have any evidence, it's difficult to prove. They counter with claims that people are falsely accusing abuse to get them shut down. Undercovers went in after the fact and investigated, got film...but that was long after what I saw.


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## bsms

If someone is breaking the law in abusing a horse, that doesn't mean that all slaughter is bad. It might mean we need MORE inspectors, but the OP doesn't want her tax money spent on it. ("I don't want to spend my money on it and I am forced to pay taxes.")

Of course, I'm forced to pay taxes too, and not more than 1/3 goes to any use I approve of.:evil::evil::evil:


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## Druydess

bubba13 said:


> So don't you or others _dare_ assume some level of superiority. I put my money where my mouth is. Do you? If you are so concerned about horse slaughter, what are you doing to solve the overpopulation problem that makes it necessary in the first place (in short, what about your stallion and pregnant mares....?)?


As for my stallion- never been bred. All my mares- never been bred. Just bought 2 mares in foal. I have the resources to keep them. None of my horses have been sent to slaughter. None ever will be. I know where every one of my horses are, including those I've sold. If they need to be put down, I will euthanize them. If for some reason I can't afford a Vet, I will shoot them myself to save them the horror of slaughter. So- that kinda removes any additions to the slaughter "need."

The other "part" where I put my money where my mouth is... I take in Rescues..


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## Druydess

bsms said:


> If someone is breaking the law in abusing a horse, that doesn't mean that all slaughter is bad. It might mean we need MORE inspectors, but the OP doesn't want her tax money spent on it. ("I don't want to spend my money on it and I am forced to pay taxes.")
> 
> Of course, I'm forced to pay taxes too, and not more than 1/3 goes to any use I approve of.:evil::evil::evil:


This I would agree with, but is not the case in horse slaughter. Beef and swine are much better regulated. Horses are not. THAT is one of the major issues. Since it's a million-dollar industry, our taxes shouldn't be spent on it. Something wrong with them making huge profits and us paying for it.


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## demonwolfmoon

Druydess said:


> This I would agree with, but is not the case in horse slaughter. Beef and swine are much better regulated. Horses are not. THAT is one of the major issues. Since it's a million-dollar industry, our taxes shouldn't be spent on it. Something wrong with them making huge profits and us paying for it.


Would you feel better when it is more fully regulated like beef and swine?

And regarding my arguments which you felt were not valid...here's the way I see it...you are either anti-ALL slaughter...or you are anti-HORSE slaughter. And if you are anti HORSE slaughter, the question is why?

If it's because as you say, you do not feel it's regulated enough...well that's easy enough to fix. I'm sure it will be regulated, because if the regulations don't pass muster, the anti-slaughter activists will be all over it like WHITE ON RICE.

But if you 're against horse slaughter *just* because they are horses, then I cry foul...because biologically, a horse is no better than a cow or a pig. Pigs are supposed to be quite bright actually. So why would you eat a pig but not a horse? Emotional attachment, but no logic. Which is fine as a PERSONAL moral decision...but not so ok when it's being projected on others and bringing more suffering than it prevents.


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## bubba13

Druydess, how come you have not addressed the rebuttal to the Monsanto milk controversy? Or what makes horses so much different than cattle when it comes to processing? And how come, if you are so opposed to slaughter, you are not rescuing every horse you can afford? 

I have made the decision for myself to only purchase low-end, down-on-their luck horses. I've had great luck in the past with getting great mounts out of less-than-stellar conditions, and I fully intend for my next horse(s) to be a BLM Mustang, OTTB, or 'Craigslist Special.' You can get some very high-quality horseflesh that way while both saving a dime...and a life.



Druydess said:


> This I would agree with, but is not the case in horse slaughter. Beef and swine are much better regulated. Horses are not. THAT is one of the major issues. Since it's a million-dollar industry, our taxes shouldn't be spent on it. Something wrong with them making huge profits and us paying for it.


----------



## Druydess

demonwolfmoon said:


> Would you feel better when it is more fully regulated like beef and swine?
> 
> And regarding my arguments which you felt were not valid...here's the way I see it...you are either anti-ALL slaughter...or you are anti-HORSE slaughter. And if you are anti HORSE slaughter, the question is why?
> 
> If it's because as you say, you do not feel it's regulated enough...well that's easy enough to fix. I'm sure it will be regulated, because if the regulations don't pass muster, the anti-slaughter activists will be all over it like WHITE ON RICE.
> 
> But if you 're against horse slaughter *just* because they are horses, then I cry foul...because biologically, a horse is no better than a cow or a pig. Pigs are supposed to be quite bright actually. So why would you eat a pig but not a horse? Emotional attachment, but no logic. Which is fine as a PERSONAL moral decision...but not so ok when it's being projected on others and bringing more suffering than it prevents.


Good points, and that's exactly why I have changed MY consumer habits.


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## Druydess

bubba13 said:


> Druydess, how come you have not addressed the rebuttal to the Monsanto milk controversy? Or what makes horses so much different than cattle when it comes to processing? And how come, if you are so opposed to slaughter, you are not rescuing every horse you can afford?
> 
> I have made the decision for myself to only purchase low-end, down-on-their luck horses. I've had great luck in the past with getting great mounts out of less-than-stellar conditions, and I fully intend for my next horse(s) to be a BLM Mustang, OTTB, or 'Craigslist Special.' You can get some very high-quality horseflesh that way while both saving a dime...and a life.
> 
> 
> 
> Warning: disturbing footage. Undercover investigation at Chinos Hallmark/Westland slaughterhouse - YouTube


I am rescuing every horse I can afford if you read my posts.


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## Druydess

For Bubba by request:
Monsanto- 
if you think it's safe- you can drink it and feed it to your kids when you have them.

Milk: America’s Health Problem

Monsanto: End of Bovine Growth Hormone Milk rBGH - NHF

Monsanto, FDA Cracking Down On Hormone-Free Milk Claims | Business content from New Hope 360






If that's not enough, there's plenty more out there..


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## bubba13

But none of those address the scientific claims of (and some are older than) the links I posted, least of all from peer-reviewed sources. The most you could say, reasonably, is that the jury is still out on its safety....while independent studies point to its lack of implication in serious health problems. The part you are forgetting about a profit-driven ("greedy") corporation is that it can still be held legally responsible for a health problem--and that a massive lawsuit could both bankrupt it and put its leaders in jail....


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## wyominggrandma

Alot of this anti horse slaughter folks sound suspiciously like PETA and HSUS.. These two groups work hand in hand. HSUS , (humane society of the US) has openly admitted that they do not have ONE humane society in the US, no rescues, no pounds, no buildings to help animals. PETA is a joke.
Whomever said that euthanizing by veterinarians if done inhumanely could lose their license is wrong. There is a vet here that MAKES his own euthanasia solution out of Epson Salts, which if injected into the vein will kill an animal, just slow and painful. He also euthanizes horses by shooting them IN THE HEAD with a gun, not a captive bolt. I was at a friends ranch when they called this licensed VET out to kill their horse with a broken leg. He walked up,took his pistol and shot it in the head. Of course, he did not make the "x" between the ears and eyes, he shot it right between the eyes. The horse jumped up and took off running with the bullet in the sinus and the broken leg swinging.They had to chase the horse down, rope it and then shoot it again. I reported it, nothing was done because the owners of the horse said they did it, not the vet.
I would much prefer a horse being shot with a captive bolt and going down then a bullet not placed correctly.
I still want anti slaughter folks to answer the question: why is it horse SLAUGHTER and pig/cow/chicken PROCESSING?


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## Druydess

bubba13 said:


> But none of those address the scientific claims of (and some are older than) the links I posted, least of all from peer-reviewed sources. The most you could say, reasonably, is that the jury is still out on its safety....while independent studies point to its lack of implication in serious health problems. The part you are forgetting about a profit-driven ("greedy") corporation is that it can still be held legally responsible for a health problem--and that a massive lawsuit could both bankrupt it and put its leaders in jail....


Bubba- good in theory.. but hardly consistently enforceable. 
The entire Cigarette/Tobacco Conglomerate serves to illustrate that little is done to punish big business. They got away with telling us smoking was good for us for years, then denied cigarettes caused cancer, and now.. they pay out a few billion here and there, which doesn't hurt them a bit..while they make tens of billions..
Hormones in milk causes illness. If you refuse to believe that, I can do no more. Again- if you have faith it's perfectly healthy- feed to your infants when you have them.


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## Druydess

wyominggrandma said:


> Alot of this anti horse slaughter folks sound suspiciously like PETA and HSUS.. These two groups work hand in hand. HSUS , (humane society of the US) has openly admitted that they do not have ONE humane society in the US, no rescues, no pounds, no buildings to help animals. PETA is a joke.
> Whomever said that euthanizing by veterinarians if done inhumanely could lose their license is wrong. There is a vet here that MAKES his own euthanasia solution out of Epson Salts, which if injected into the vein will kill an animal, just slow and painful. He also euthanizes horses by shooting them IN THE HEAD with a gun, not a captive bolt. I was at a friends ranch when they called this licensed VET out to kill their horse with a broken leg. He walked up,took his pistol and shot it in the head. Of course, he did not make the "x" between the ears and eyes, he shot it right between the eyes. The horse jumped up and took off running with the bullet in the sinus and the broken leg swinging.They had to chase the horse down, rope it and then shoot it again. I reported it, nothing was done because the owners of the horse said they did it, not the vet.
> I would much prefer a horse being shot with a captive bolt and going down then a bullet not placed correctly.
> I still want anti slaughter folks to answer the question: why is it horse SLAUGHTER and pig/cow/chicken PROCESSING?


First_-I am not, nor have ever been a member of PETA or HSUS, and the arbitrary assumptions made during these debates really are not helpful.
An unethical Vet would be prosecuted if it was known to the appropriate people.
I'll take my chances with a bullet. I'm a good shot and will do it if I must. I will not send a faithful companion who has done all I've asked to a terrifying journey, afraid and alone, to maybe be put down on the first attempt.
Last- it's all slaughter and who said anything about processing?


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## bsms

Folks, the other night, several moderators ended up removing 50 posts from a thread due to incivility. I'd hate to see that happen again, in part because I'd rather go to bed than stay up and clean up. :evil:

When debating - with passion - please remember that the way to win the minds of others is to argue facts and reasons, not personalities. It is possible to be a well-intentioned person and end up on either side of the debate. If you don't agree with that statement, then maybe you should find a political forum to argue the question on...because you cannot be civil when you believe your opponent is an evil person. There is a huge difference between being incorrect and being evil.

And if you cannot be civil, then you won't be posting. Or at least, your post won't remain very long...

Please.


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## bsms

Druydess said:


> ...The entire Cigarette/Tobacco Conglomerate serves to illustrate that little is done to punish big business. They got away with telling us smoking was good for us for years, then denied cigarettes caused cancer, and now.. they pay out a few billion here and there, which doesn't hurt them a bit..while they make tens of billions..
> 
> Hormones in milk causes illness. If you refuse to believe that, I can do no more. Again- if you have faith it's perfectly healthy- feed to your infants when you have them.


I don't smoke, but cigarette companies make and sell a legal product.

As for milk - my grandkids are drinking it. So do I. I find when I have a headache, one of the most effective 'medicine' is a glass of milk. Maybe it is some hormone I'm lacking...


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## bubba13

bsms said:


> I don't smoke, but cigarette companies make and sell a legal product.
> 
> As for milk - my grandkids are drinking it. So do I. I find when I have a headache, one of the most effective 'medicine' is a glass of milk. Maybe it is some hormone I'm lacking...


You'll be hitting female puberty pretty soon.....


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## bsms

bubba13 said:


> You'll be hitting female puberty pretty soon.....


And I'll be one HELL of an UGLY chick!

There won't be enough beer in Arizona...oh wait. Not sure I should go there...

Besides, there ALREADY isn't enough beer in Arizona to get me...


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## tinyliny

=Yes, dont go there. now back to regular programming . . . .


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## Druydess

bsms said:


> I don't smoke, but cigarette companies make and sell a legal product.
> 
> As for milk - my grandkids are drinking it. So do I. I find when I have a headache, one of the most effective 'medicine' is a glass of milk. Maybe it is some hormone I'm lacking...


Yes- legal due to major lobbying..and very deadly as well. It is acceptable because it has huge profits. 

The milk thing.. I was horrified to find that again, due to profit, known poisons were covered up and produced/sold to the public.
I understand we as a people don't want to think our government bodies and regulators would be party to deceit to the point of health infractions, but is it really that far fetched? Does anyone doubt we have a bought Congress with lobbyists who own politicians?
Your health means nothing to them when stacked against big money. Even without the hormones in milk..the milk industry has a billion dollar ad campaign to shove it done your throats. Contrary to what the ads tell you, milk is actually not that good for you. You get more calcium in Spinach than multiple glasses of milk. It's detrimental in many cases except for infants, and that should be human milk they ingest.


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## bubba13

**** delicious in cheese and ice cream, too.
(and good source of tryptophan)


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## bsms

I'd as soon be emasculated as eat spinach.

Does a banana split count as a veggie or a fruit?


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## bubba13

bsms said:


> I'd as soon be emasculated as eat spinach.












But then again, let's not forget the spinach _E coli_ fiasco....


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## Druydess

bsms said:


> I'd as soon be emasculated as eat spinach.
> 
> Does a banana split count as a veggie or a fruit?


LOL - that's some major spinach hate..
depends on how much ice cream...but there's fruit in there..milky fruit..:wink:
Off to bed.. nite all- have to work early..


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## Cat

Then of course there is the more recent arsenic in apple juice. Maybe we can survive off air?


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## bubba13

How naive are you? Have you not heard of air pollution? Geeze... :roll:


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## tinyliny

Run!! While you still can. There's poison everywhere!


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## nrhareiner

Wallaby said:


> Personally, I think horse slaughter is dumb, mainly due to the fact that most people love their horses and give them all sorts of medication that will and does taint the horse's meat. Do I really want to be ingesting bute and other drugs that say on them "not for use on animals intended for human consumption" by eating a horse that had been treated with a drug like that? No thanks.


You do realize that any drug that is given to any animal does get out of their system with in a give time frame correct? Some like Anti Biotic is 3 days some are 7 and very few are 14 days. Past that the meat is safe to eat. It if was not then there would be no meat that would be safe to eat and no milk safe to drink.


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## demonwolfmoon

bubba13 said:


> **** delicious in cheese and ice cream, too.
> (and good source of tryptophan)


Uh...don't we make our own Tryptophan? xD
We were just talking about tryptophan and the trp operon in genetics....


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## demonwolfmoon

bsms said:


> I'd as soon be emasculated as eat spinach.


I LOVE SPINACH!!!!!!!!!!!!! :evil:

How can anyone hate spinach???
On that note...didn't they find human feces (or the bacteria from it) in bagged spinach especially? I *know* that there was something about vegetables from Mexico being grown toooooooo close for comfort (read: illegal) to the latrine and human waste.


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## bubba13

Nope, you have to get tryptophan from dietary sources. It's one of the more complicated amino acids and one we can't synthesize.










Of course it's necessary in a lot of proteins, but it's also converted into feel-good neurotransmitter serotonin. So much so that tryptophan (from milk, turkey, or supplements) is recommended for humans or animals with anxious energy problems. It has a calming and relaxing effect. You can't just give straight serotonin, because it won't cross the blood/brain barrier.


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## nrhareiner

Celeste said:


> I started this thread with the title *"Does anybody on this forum like horses?"* The title was changed by a moderator.
> 
> My point was this: Think about the 12 year old girls that could be coming here to learn about horses. Think about how they are being horrified by all the people who eagerly want to promote a fast easy market for substandard horses. I would be mortified if I were a kid that was full of hopes and dreams and love of horses. *
> 
> When I was 12 I had already Slaughtered Deer and cattle so no biggy there. I knew where my food came from and not a supermarket. I think most horse kids know this.* *If not they will soon learn. It is part of life. Like it or not.
> 
> *This forum is overrun with profit seeking people who find horses to be no more than a market commodity.
> 
> *I love my horses but just like anything in life they are not free. They MUST pay their way. So yes I expect them to make me money. Hay may grow like trees but it is not free. Nor is anything else about horses free or even cheap.*
> 
> I have been accused of trying to start an argument by starting this thread. Well if that is true, it seems that I was successful. The relative lack of people that see problems with slaughter does not show a lack of support for my position. It merely shows that most people that agree with me are not on this forum any longer.


Why is slaughter of horses any different then the slaughter of cattle pigs sheep chickens and so on? Just b/c horses have other uses does not change what they are. Live stock.


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## Gremmy

Celeste said:


> 10 horses X $245 = $2450 which will pay for a lot of fuel.
> Make it 20 horses. 40.


*Basic economics*. Say you haul 20 horses from an area where they are going for $25 each at auction to an area where they go for $245. Is there a guarantee that you are actually going to get $245 for each one? No.

Basic supply and demand. You have increased the supply in the area by 20 horses, and demand has not changed. As a rule, this means that the price will be driven down. Untouched, the horses in that area were getting $245, but by flooding the market, the price will go down accordingly.


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## bsms

Also, while hauling 20 horses is cheaper per horse than hauling one, it isn't the same price as hauling one. If you have a known buyer on the other end who has agreed to pay $250, then you can look at your transportation costs & time, and decide if it is worth the effort.

If I were to take it up, I'd have to buy 20 horses at $5, arrange their transportation, pay for it out of pocket, and then HOPE I could make a profit by selling them somewhere else.

One of the problems with slaughter in the US is that there ARE people who buy horses cheap, transport them to Mexico, and then sell them because a horse of 1000 lbs has a known value in Mexico. Unhappily, the horses transported like that are unregulated once they hit the border, and suffer much more than they would if killed in the USA.


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## Celeste

Why do I care more about horses than I do about pigs?

The same reason I care more about dogs and cats than I do about pigs. Culturally, I consider them to be pets.

This has been a fun argument, but I am now going to unsubscribe from it.


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## bubba13

Celeste said:


> Why do I care more about horses than I do about pigs?
> 
> The same reason I care more about dogs and cats than I do about pigs. Culturally, I consider them to be pets.


So not based on logically sound or sensible reasons, given that pigs are more intelligent, sensitive, and loyal than any of the above. So long as we're clear on that point, fine.


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## Cherie

bsms, this is exactly why the sale barn owner has told guys on the east coast NOT to haul a semi-load to this sale. 

Many horses go through this sale for less than $75.00. If they have a cut or a 'limp', have gotten a snotty nose or have lost enough weight to not 'grade', then they bring a lot less than the $300.00 they might have brought. There is commission, yardage and insurance deducted and if their Coggins Test is not less than 6 months old or the markings do not match closely enough, they need a new one of those. It is not quite as simple as buy for $25.00 and sell for $250.00. But then, this is what someone would expect from some with the simplistic arguments with no solutions that we hear from the anti-slaughter people.


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## demonwolfmoon

Celeste said:


> Why do I care more about horses than I do about pigs?
> 
> The same reason I care more about dogs and cats than I do about pigs. Culturally, I consider them to be pets.
> 
> This has been a fun argument, but I am now going to unsubscribe from it.


Well...at least you finally admit there is no sound logic behind your argument, just emotional attachment brought on by the culture of your childhood. xD

So since you're unsubscribing does this mean that you've given up inflaming us with righteous anger ?


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## mls

nrhareiner said:


> You do realize that any drug that is given to any animal does get out of their system with in a give time frame correct? Some like Anti Biotic is 3 days some are 7 and very few are 14 days. Past that the meat is safe to eat. It if was not then there would be no meat that would be safe to eat and no milk safe to drink.


Part of the reason for the USDA inspections are to ensure the product is safe. ANY meat that goes to market for a consumer is tested.


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## bubba13

Huh. http://www.horseforum.com/horses-sale/horses-ny-rescue-urgently-need-placement-107408/


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## WickedNag

Horse slaughter... hmm not for my horses. Heck I wouldn't even haul them to the vet in unfamiliar surroundings to be euthanized but I do think there is a need for it. So while I am pro slaughter it just wouldn't do for my horses who have served me so well.


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## HowClever

WickedNag said:


> Horse slaughter... hmm not for my horses. Heck I wouldn't even haul them to the vet in unfamiliar surroundings to be euthanized but I do think there is a need for it. So while I am pro slaughter it just wouldn't do for my horses who have served me so well.


This is exactly what it all boils down to.

Now I am in Australia and slaughter has always been legal here. Just because it is legal and an option does NOT mean that MY horses (or yours) will end up on a plate or in a pet food can. It is an option, not a requirement. When the time comes for MY horses they will be euthanised at home.

If somebody else chooses to send them on to a slaughter horse that is their decision. At least if slaughter houses are receiving the funding required to employ inspectors and such, those horses will travel for a few hours and meet a regulated end. As I understand the current situation in the US, horses are shipped for days. The lucky ones go to Canada where there are regulations in place. The unlucky ones head to Mexico where there are few, if any, regulations in place. At least with local plants open, the travel time is reduced and regulations can be enforced.

I am not saying that slaughter is not a scary experience for a horse. But so is a botched euthanasia. Fear is fear no matter the situation it presents in.

Rescues are full and overflowing. There are rescues that have hit hard times so bad that other rescues are having to come in and drag the horses out. They don't have the space or the money to save all the young, healthy horses with potential. They can't be expected to save the old, sick and essentially "useless" horses. 

The idea of responsible horse ownership is of course a wonderful thing. It cannot, however, be adequately enforced. If people can not be made to treat other people well, they certainly can't be forced in to doing right by their animals.

In a perfect world it would be that simple. People would act responsibly and stop treating animals as disposable. Unfortunately, this is NOT a perfect world. Things are never simple.

I will continue to do right by my animals, you continue to do right by yours. I'll continue to help any animal that I responsibly can, you do what you can. For the rest I hope that a reasonably quick end to their suffering remains a viable option.


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