# Round Pen/Longing-To Turn (In) or Not To Turn (In)



## dznyntnh (Jul 21, 2013)

Over the summer I took on a full lease for a four year old Paint who has been through several different trainers since he started his training last year. 

I am not a trainer, but due to circumstances, I have ended up mostly on my own to work with him. The person who was training him when I decided to lease him left for a new job in July and won't be back until May at the earliest. He's the one who showed me everything and worked with me and my horse.

One of the things he trained the horses he worked with to do was to turn in...turn towards him completely...when they finished working a side on the longe line or in the round pen. He told me that this showed that they were listening and you had their attention.

Another girl who works at the ranch was helping me to longe different horses and she said that turning in was a 'Western thing' and stopping in place was an 'English' thing.

Now, the owner of the ranch I ride at has told me that turning in is a sign of aggression and should never be done.

So, of course, I am a bit confused. The two younger people who told me turning in is ok have far more experience with riding and training that me or the owner...she has a tendency to listen to whoever is whispering in her ear at the moment...which is why I've gone through three trainers in six months.

If there are any trainers out there who have an opinion or explanation, I'd love to here from you.

The one thing I've learned on this journey is that there is very little black and white in training and a whole lot of grey.


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## gssw5 (Jul 30, 2013)

While you may be finding a lot grey in horse training methods, you have to be black and white with the horses when training. Horses like black and white so there is no room for confusion. I was taught to have them turn in and give two eyes as a sign of respect, they are not allowed to turn in and come to me without permission. They turn in, stop and wait for me to ask them into my space. Two eyes are better then two feet, always. Why would you want a horse turning its butt to you ever? When I go to a horse I want two eyes at all times, and it starts by establishing that respect in the round pen, showing them I can move their feet and control their body with mine. Just as a herd leader in the pasture would do.

I know some trainers teach them to turn away in the round pen, but what happens when you put them on a line, and they have been taught to turn away from you; that does not work well to have them turn away from you unless you are very handy with the line.

Everyone has their way of training, and things that work for them. What you need to do is listen, watch and take in as much as you can and find what works for you. But once you decide how your going to do something be consistent with it, and black and white so your horse will not be confused.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Since you are approx. in the middle of the pen, step back a few steps. Horses are inclined to follow what is moving away. You will need to experiment with how many steps will draw the horse. When it is facing you that is when you ask for the other direction. Extend your direction arm a little above your shoulder to point the way. Bring your driving hand with the whip to encourage movement. Try to send him off quietly at the walk. After he's gone half a dozen strides, back away again to draw him. Both of you may struggle with this at first but usually after three or four attempts you find out what works. Why keep him at a walk? So he'll think instead of going into flight mode and then he's on auto pilot.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I've seen some trainers do both when asking for a direction change. The horse turns out or in depending on the cue. I will do this too sometimes, but only after the horse is consistently turning in and behaving respectfully.
My sister disagrees with me a on this. She feels that a horse should never turn their butt to you. I can see her point on this since you want to teach the horse to watch and listen to you.
I like to change things up though, so I know the horse is listening and responding to me not just working out of habit.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I like the horse to just stop on their circle line and allow me to approach. This way is much safer as I am always in control of the line, and the horse is facing perpendicular to me should he spook or bolt.
It also allows an easier adjustment of the side reins. Often times when I stop the horse, it is not to change directions.

IMO it is very important to have a qualified instructor teach you how to lunge a horse. Always remain safe and in control or all your equipment, and the horse. Nothing should touch the ground or need go be picked up from a bent over position.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovesMyDunnBoy (Aug 11, 2011)

I've always been taught to have the horse turn in. I don't want to have their butt to me, EVER. Especially with lunging. Most horses get excited and like to get frisky and kick. That's just how I've always done it. Especially with the mare I'm working with now. She always looks out of the pen, ignoring me. If we spend time getting her to face me she's much better about paying attention to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

LovesMyDunnBoy said:


> I've always been taught to have the horse turn in. I don't want to have their butt to me, EVER.


Me too. 

The hind end can KICK and I do not want it pointing in my direction. 

When I ask my horses for a direction change, I want them to turn inward, and then go the other way. For myself, I don't let my horses come to the middle of the circle because when I say WHOA, that means the feet stop. It does not mean that you come to me in the center. So when I WHOA the horse, I will walk to them, back them up, and then praise. 

Everyone will do things a little different, but make sure YOU do the same thing with your horses consistently to help with confusion.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Lunging is part of the training where a horse learns verbal cues that then get 'translated' into the cues we give from the saddle
I train my horses to understand 'whoa' and 'Stand' and then to turn (to change direction) or walk on to command. If they were to turn and start walking in to me without being asked they wouldn't be listening and obeying but doing their own thing


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

the will usually turn directions with their butt toward you if they are fleeing you. It can be just a matter of habit, and not necessarily them flipping you the finger. its not so much which direction, but how they turn.

If they change directions facing you, it ususally is becuase you've got a better "draw" on them, so they are going around with at least one ear and eye on you all along, waiting for the next instruction, not just running away from you.

It doesn't matter to me if the horse , when stopping out on the circle, turns his head or even forequarters inward or stays put, as long as he does not COME IN uninvited. 
if the handler asked for a stop, the horse should stop, and if the handler kind of freezes, so should the horse. If the handler backs up, the horse should draw to that. the horse looking inward is a kind of "what now?" question. Give it clear instructions right then. if you want it to stop and stand, stop your own body, and maybe , if necessary, put a little flip on the line to stop him. If you don't give him direction when he stops, he may decide himself to come in toward you, and you don't want him making that decision himself. you might want him to ask (turn and look at you, both eyes) but you answer with a direction , help him out.

ETA I just realized that I was thinking of Round Pen lunging when making the above comments. on a lungeline, you would never want him to turn AWAY from you.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

If the horse is a bit hyper I will allow outside turns but as it tires and begins to settle down I will then try to draw it for inside turns. With an inside turn the horse is allowed to rest for a few seconds then is asked to finish the turn and move on, always with low energy on my part to keep him thinking and not reacting.


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## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

For me it depends on what I'm working on and if I'm lunging in a round pen or on a line. In a round pen I use both turn in and turn out. I use turn out to teach the horse to sit on their haunches and roll back. This is used in a lot of western disciplines under saddle. I teach the horse to go off of different ques for different turns and stops. If I want the horse to turn in I give them lots of space, if I want the horse to roll back I step into them. I also teach the horse to stop and stand. If told to "whoa" the horse is to stop and stand still in the direction they are moving. This allows me to either ask for forward motion again, a turn either in or out, or for the horse to come to me.

If I'm using a lunge line I always ask for a turn in so the rope doesn't get messed up. On the line I teach the horse to move the shoulders both directions so they can stop and turn quickly if asked. The horse is never to step into my space unless asked there first. If I'm asking for a turn they are to do it at the end of the line and just sit back and turn their shoulders around (this takes lots of practice on shorter ropes before it can happen on the end of the lunge line). Again if they are told "whoa" they are to stop and stand facing the direction of travel until told what to do.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

dznyntnh said:


> turn towards him completely...when they finished working a side on the longe line or in the round pen. He told me that this showed that they were listening and you had their attention.


If they stand at attention, or move when & how you ask them, in whatever position, they're obviously paying attention to you, not just when they are facing you. 

It's not any more 'aggressive' IMO than it is 'disobedient' for a horse not to turn & face you when you request. Like thinking of a horse walking either beside or behind you(take your pick, depending on who you've listened to... or a dog walking through a door before it's owner:lol is 'disrespectful'. It's just what they've learned - or not. IMO the horse may well be 'disrespectful', 'aggressive', whatever, but it's got nothing to do with that particular behaviour.



> Another girl who works at the ranch was helping me to longe different horses and she said that turning in was a 'Western thing' and stopping in place was an 'English' thing.


I think that's more accurate. So maybe my approach of teaching the horse to go/do/stop however I ask, be that facing me, out on the circle or otherwise is an Australian thing??:lol: I teach lunging as an extension of other basic training - it's about teaching/reinforcing responses at a distance. Just as I want my horse to 'face up' & approach me when I come to the paddock or when I signal it, but I want him to stand squarely side-on when I want to mount, I teach this when lunging too.

I also don't have a problem with the idea of a horse turning away from me on a circle *assuming I cue it & the horse isn't trying to escape or some such*. I want them to learn to move in whatever direction, regardless where I am in relation to them. I also drive horses, do lots of bush riding & walking and frequently lead more than one horse, sometimes on narrow, windy trails, where one's in front & one's behind, so I do find lots of 'purpose' for that principle.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

As far as I'm concerned, whether you have a horse stop without turning toward you or whether you ask them to stop and face up is a completely personal preference. When I'm lunging a horse, I want them to face toward me when I ask for the stop but they are not permitted to approach at all. I've had too many customer horses come through that had been taught "when I ask you to stop, then I want you to turn and walk toward me" and when they blew up under saddle, their first instinct was to come right at me. Most the time I was able to either drive them away or get myself out of the way, but I do have scars and I ended up with a lot of bruises from horses that would not be dissuaded from bucking right over the top of me.

As for changing directions, on a normal lunge line, I want them to turn toward me but they aren't allowed to cut the circle. I expect them to stay on the same line when they turn around as they were, much like a reining rollback. However, if I am long lining them, they have to turn away from me. BUT, by that point, they are normally beyond the stage of "maybe thinking about kicking".


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## mobilenaturaltrainer (Nov 28, 2013)

Hope this helps;[/I] whether you are round penning or lunging the horse should turn in and face you. If it is a very agressive horse that you are not familar with you may turn it to the outside otherwise the horse should turn in.

1. Drive away to the left in one direction [sub ordinance]
2. Maintains direction - 4 turns around the pen to the left [focus & leadership]
3. Establish a dialogue begins turning to the inside, facing with two eyes (trust)
4. Turns to the outside [disrespect]
5. Turns to the inside [respect]
6. Drive away to the right in one direction [sub ordinance]
7. Establish a dialogue begins turning to the inside, facing with two eyes (trust)
8. Turns to the outside [disrespect]
9. Turns to the inside [respect]
10. Establish a dialogue begins turning to the inside, facing with two eyes (trust)
11. Shakes Head from side to side [disrespect]
12. Kicks out when ask to change gaits [disrespect]
13. Lowers head to ground, mouthing or looks in to the handler [communicating]
14. Control his speed at a trot & canter (communication)
15. Turning to the inside and changing directions to the Right trust & communication]
16. Turning to the inside and changing directions to the Left trust & communication]
17. Joining behaviour [communication, trust & leadership]
18. Following behaviour [communication, trust, respect & leadership]
19. Control the gaits; walk, trot & canter [communication & leadership]
20. At the end of session - Stands still & accepts halter [trust, respect & leadership]

John


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

^^^Also, a pet peeve of mine. I don't want a horse to come into my space uninvited. 
Whoa means whoa, so when I tell them to stop I want them to stop not approach me.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Agree mobiletrainer, that your list_ can_ indeed mean those things. I disagree that they *necessarily* do though, so don't like the idea of putting an emotional lable to specifics on a list like that. It's inaccurate pigeonholing IMO. Also have a bit of a problem with the lables & concepts 'respect' and 'disrespect' because for one they mean different things to different people, and don't find they're particularly helpful in te aching people why or how.

Just a few possible alternate reasons for the exercises on your list to consider...

1. (escape/fear)
3. (because it's been taught)
4. (because they've been taught or for escape)
5. (because they've been taught or 'aggressive' or dominant attitude)
11.(dominance 'games')
12.(frustration, confusion or fear)
13.(giving up)
17.(has been taught)
20.(has given up, resigned or shut down)


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

OP -Your right there is a whole lot of grey in training. There are correct ways of doing things, but if it isn't getting the desired results then you need to improvise.
I would keep things simple at first. Work on one thing like turning in then once you've got that down add something else.


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## Mikhala (Oct 23, 2013)

My dressage instructor likes the horse to stand on the line, the cowboy/trainer/horseman (whose methods I follow) likes the horse to turn in and face me, but not to come into my space.

I did the dressage way (I am a dressage rider) ....it didn't work for my 4 yr old. The turning in is much more effective in getting a horse to pay attention to you and learn that at all times you are leader and eyes are on you.

Cowboys know how to train for behavior and manners better than anyone I've worked with. Listen to them!


M


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## Wallee (Mar 7, 2012)

I like for the horses I train to turn in. I believe I have their attention and respect when they have their eyes on me awaiting my next cue. I wouldn't allow any horse trained or untouched to point that double barrel at me XD 
However turning in doesn't mean I want the horse to approach me, I establish respect and make them stand at distance to await my next cue(direction change). If I want them to come in to me I invite them into my space by drawing them in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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