# Looking at a few fillies for purchase



## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

Hi so I am looking at a few weanlings and trying to pick the best one for purchase. I am okay-ish at conformation on an adult, but really lacking in the younger horse department. I know as they age the butts and pasterns come down. These are just some ranch bred horses that I was looking at. From my understanding they just brought them in off of 500 acres to wean them from their moms and took some pictures. I think they also brought in their cows too.


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

Here is number 2


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

Here is number 3


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## 281187 (Sep 19, 2019)

Not an expert in conformation, but they're cute looking at least. 

Nice silver dapple coloring too. What breed are they? What state is the ranch in? 

Because I'm not sure that the Quarter Horse has the silver gene, but Morgan's are one of the breeds that do and they were once upon a time used quite prominently as ranch horses. Especially in California.


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

These are some Hancock bred quarter horses. I think there are 2 lines that carry the silver dapple gene. These are either silver black or blue roan silver.


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## 281187 (Sep 19, 2019)

ferricyanide said:


> These are some Hancock bred quarter horses. I think there are 2 lines that carry the silver dapple gene. These are either silver black or blue roan silver.


You're right, just did some googling and came across this guy. Rare Silver Gene | AQHA Stallion | Hancocks Silver Boy 

So there _definitely_ are silver dapple Quarter horses and the Hancock line is one bloodline that produces them. Perhaps this shouldn't be so surprising, Morgans are known to have influenced the Quarter Horse ((Quite extensively it turns out! http://creamridgemorgans.com/documents/justinmorgan_contribution_qh.pdf & http://creamridgemorgans.com/documents/MorganQuarterHorseconnection.pdf )) and ol' Joe Hancock himself is rumored to have had Morgan in his background ((Alongside the infamous Percheron)).


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

In their pedigree its from Bar U Champ Binder the breeder just got a mare from that line and bred with their hancock stock.
https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bar+u+champ+binder

The other line is easier to trace and it goes all the way back to a stud that was a stud for both Morgans and quarter horses.
https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ms+barbarella


https://www.silverequine.org/american-quarter-horse.html

I find it all very interesting. A little disappointing that the quarters dont seem to express it very cleanly. The babies I have pictures of look pretty sharp but it fades as a adults a bit it seems.


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## 281187 (Sep 19, 2019)

ferricyanide said:


> In their pedigree its from Bar U Champ Binder the breeder just got a mare from that line and bred with their hancock stock.
> https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bar+u+champ+binder
> 
> The other line is easier to trace and it goes all the way back to a stud that was a stud for both Morgans and quarter horses.
> ...


That all is very interesting, is this ranch specifically breeding for silver dapple horse then? Breeding for color ((*In addition* to longevity, soundness, no genetic disorders, good conformation, etc and so forth)) has become increasingly common in the last decade in the horse breeding world it seems. 

Can't say that I blame any breeder looking to wrap their horses in a pretty color. The public _loves_ color and with the horse market being what it is, anything that adds value to potential foals would be seriously looked at by any business-person. 

Especially since these are fillies. 

Since geldings are the traditional working ranch horses out west --Particularly among the Buckaroo sub-culture of the Cowboy it seems-- mares aren't usually used for riding on the big ranches. Some ranches even forbid mares altogether! Mares are used as broodmares almost exclusively and only so many fillies are needed each year to replace their aging mothers, so plenty of fillies end up as surplus that needs to be sold. 

Not that no mares are ever ridden on some of the west's largest cattle ranches, but the tradition seems to hold strong in some regions of the US even today. 

That's what I assume is the case with these fillies anyway.


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## txgirl (Jul 9, 2010)

They are all just too stinking cute! Sorry I'm not a lot of help, but they all look similar and I would be interested in their personalities.


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

I am not exactly sure how they got start on the silvers. The impression I got is that they have had the silvers for a while without knowing, then it became a known thing. Then they started producing several in the past 10 years or so. They do seem like a typical ranch and the mares are just broodmares, the owner is older. They have some geldings and stud colts for sale too. I just have a preference for mares.

I was planning to ride the filly I buy so I was hoping to get whichever one had the best conformation, which is why I was asking here for some feedback.


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

txgirl said:


> They are all just too stinking cute! Sorry I'm not a lot of help, but they all look similar and I would be interested in their personalities.


I know I just like all of them. I think 2 is my favorite, barely. I am trying to not just got for cute though.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

practically impossible to judge from those photos, but I think I prefer filly #1, slightly. She seemes best balanced overall. They are so close to identical it's scary. Sure they aren't cloning?


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

They're all very similar. What's jumping out to me is that all three look like they may be back at the knee, which is quite a flaw in a saddle horse-- it may just be winter fuzzies, but worth looking at closely. Are they all by the same sire? Maybe ask for photos of the dams, and choose the one that came from the best dam conformationally/temperament-wise. Hopefully the ranch broke all their mares to ride, even if they don't use them a lot. It really tells you a lot about that dam's temperament and what she will produce. If one mare sticks out as being the best-built and they said she is easy to handle and work with, that's the foal I would choose. If I had to pick off these photos, I would go for filly #1 or #3. If #1 isn't back at the knee and doesn't always stand with a foreleg extended, I would go for her. If she is, go for #3. #2 isn't as well-balanced.


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

SilverMaple said:


> They're all very similar. What's jumping out to me is that all three look like they may be back at the knee, which is quite a flaw in a saddle horse-- it may just be winter fuzzies, but worth looking at closely. Are they all by the same sire? Maybe ask for photos of the dams, and choose the one that came from the best dam conformationally/temperament-wise.


They are out of the same sire, I think. The third one they have listed as a different sire but he doesn't have silver so I think it might be a typo. I have asked about that but I havent gotten a response yet. I am attaching some younger less fuzzy pictures if it is easier to tell if they are all back at the knee still.



They have pictures of the dams I can get those in a second and attach those. I was hoping to get a better ranking and narrow it down a bit before asking about dam personality again. I think I overloaded him with questions earlier and he got to the questions I asked last.


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

Here are the moms

I appreciate the feedback it is helpful


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## 281187 (Sep 19, 2019)

SilverMaple said:


> Hopefully the ranch broke all their mares to ride, even if they don't use them a lot. It really tells you a lot about that dam's temperament and what she will produce.


If this is a large working cattle ranch like I think it is, that's pretty unlikely. The mares on those sorts of places are usually judged going off of their ((Male)) relatives --Sires, Grandsires, brothers, sons, ect-- characteristics and temperaments, not on what their own abilities are. Frankly it would be impressive if the broodmares are even halter broken. 

I'm really not kidding when I say that mares in a ranch situation where geldings are the preferred work horses aren't valued highly. Their handled basically like cattle:- Only handled once or twice a year at the very most, run into chutes and stocks to be vaccinated or doctored ((Hoof trimming for breeding stock is basically unheard of)), turned out into large pastures during spring with a dozen other mares and a stallion to foal and then be re-bred, nursing their foals throughout the summer, having their foals weaned abruptly come fall and then turned out into a large pasture with every other mare on the ranch to wait out the winter. 

Now repeat that for the mares entire reproductive life, up until they can't produce anymore and are hauled off to the nearest auction house to be sold. These ranches are not breeding for pleasure, but for working animals and to make money off of their excess stock and culls. They don't handle their breeding stock more then the bare minimum because they don't see it as worth their time or money.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

^ Not always. Some of the best ranches have realized that the dam contributes a lot to the foal, and break all of their mares to ride-- not only so they can weed out the ones that are problematic, but so the mares have a chance at a career if they don't produce well. It's really not that hard to put 30 days on a mare and teach her the basics, and if she's not trainable, then there's no way I'd breed her. Thankfully, a lot of ranches are now getting out of the dark ages and realizing that, too. As more ranches downsize and try to breed better horses that sell for higher prices, rather than just quantity and hope they get some good ones in the bunch, riding the mares is more and more common and they have to prove themselves under saddle and/or in the show pen, too.


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## 281187 (Sep 19, 2019)

SilverMaple said:


> ^ Not always. Some of the best ranches have realized that the dam contributes a lot to the foal, and break all of their mares to ride-- not only so they can weed out the ones that are problematic, but so the mares have a chance at a career if they don't produce well. It's really not that hard to put 30 days on a mare and teach her the basics, and if she's not trainable, then there's no way I'd breed her. Thankfully, a lot of ranches are now getting out of the dark ages and realizing that, too. As more ranches downsize and try to breed better horses that sell for higher prices, rather than just quantity and hope they get some good ones in the bunch, riding the mares is more and more common and they have to prove themselves under saddle and/or in the show pen, too.


Maybe on the King Ranch or the 6666 Ranch in Texas. Lol, but that's not really likely on say "Uncle Earl's Ranch" in Nevada.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Personally, I like #2 the best. 

She has the best overall conformation, IMO


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## cbar (Nov 27, 2015)

It is so hard to tell; they are all so stinkin' cute & fuzzy!! 

I am partial to #1 for some reason.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

the dam photos show #2 as the best conformed.


I have been told that Hancock line horses can be very difficult. I do not know if this is true or not. I've only ever met one. She was . . opinionated.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

What, exactly, is this ranch breeding for? None of these mares is all that great, and none are of similar type. I would question if the fillies have been produced strictly for color, or with a plan toward actually being sound, serviceable, sane horses.


Hancock breeding, especially, should be from sound, proven mares-- some Hancock horses are rank and not easy horses by any means. What are your plans for this filly?


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

I have heard mixed things about the hancocks.... some say they were super difficult some say they are super easy. I would probably start with a lot of ground work, and probably some trick training it would be a while before I could ride. This would mostly be a practice horse, I haven't broken a horse in since I was a teen. There is a lot more that I know now that I didn't know then. Lots of new things I want to try. Probably try out a few different low level competition things and see how I like them. Work on training those things.... and if I ever find a discipline/event I like I can get a horse bred for that at that time. If I never make up my mind probably just a general riding horse. I like training and working with the young ones, I like knowing the history of the horse.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

cbar said:


> It is so hard to tell; they are all so stinkin' cute & fuzzy!!
> 
> I am partial to #1 for some reason.


Me too!


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Another vote for #1. I am partial to short backs and big butts!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I like the conformation of the #2 mare, except for her neck, which in both photos is ugly. I think the #1 (blue roan) mare is coarse, her shoulder is too straight, her back is too long, and her rump lacks length. The #3 mare (the dark one) is very pleasing from what can be seen of her and definitely has the best rump and topline of the three.

As for the fillies, I can't judge very well, they will change enormously, so I would go by the dams' conformation. If it was me I would eliminate #1 and think about the other two.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Not a fan of any of the mares. Filly 1 is probably the best. Filly 3 Would be next best. 

Personally I prefer to get colts or fillies from proven proformance horses. Sire an dam should both be trained under saddle. 

I know of someone who breeds registered quarter horses. 2 of the mares aren't ridable because they are rank broncs. So far every foal produced aren't any better. 

They are after color not ridable useable horses. Last I knew 3 of the now 3 &. 4 year olds from those mares went to kill. Rank broncs no one can train.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

#1 has very odd back legs, camped out behind, long cannons 
#3 has is very high in the rear, looks like two different horses front and back. Also the long cannons. 

#2 is the best, very even and balanced, and her dam is the best built too. She has the silver dapple if that is desired. Fillies 1&3 are roans.


Of course you could always make an offer on all three :rofl:


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Filly 2 isn't well balanced weird hind end on her. Hind legs aren't right don't like how they look. Honestly I wouldn't buy any of them. Then again I want a good working trainable horse. Can't ride color or papers can't fix nut cases either. 

As the saying goes the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. 
My gelding is out money winning sire an dam. He looks like and takes after the mare. Mare has a prettier head.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Doesn't the silver in AQHA come from a stallion called Bow Champ?


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

Filly #2 is my first pick. The first is sickle hocked, which is a big no for a working ranch horse, and #3 is goose rumped and has a weak stifle. #2 has the best overall traits - a higher point of shoulder and neck emergence which allow for her to lighten the forehand a little easier, straighter legs than the other two, and a stronger hip. I like what I can see of her neck as well - the other two have short, very thick and low necks that won't aid themselves to long rides or rough terrain(there's a reason why Arabs, with their high-set necks, are considered the best candidates for the intense terrain at Tevis - check out some of the pictures!), while #2's neck looks a bit more balanced and shapely. It's hard to say though, none of these pictures are really ideal for judging any of their necks. #2 doesn't look as big-butted as the other two, but for a working ranch horse that needs to hold up well? I'd go with her. #3 is also cow-hocked, which isn't a good thing for longevity. (I own a cow hocked + sickle hocked gelding, and his feet are a disaster to take care of and he gets sore hocks very easily.) 

I think #2 is the best balanced - #1's pasterns and sickle hocks are a no from me, and #3's goose rump and cow hocks, along with being overall course looking is a no as well. #2 seems to be the best balanced horse. However, if they are bred solely for color - likely than not, they're not going to be good ranch horses. I'd look into the stallion's and the offspring's performance records(Specifically the length of their careers - you don't want a ranch horse breaking down at 7.)


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

Sorry I kind of fell off. He had missed one filly on his first go around with the pictures so I was partially waiting for that. 



I guess if anything I am just more confused. Realistically I think a baby from performance sire and dam is well out of my current price range. I just really don't think that is worth the money for me when there is a chance this baby just ends up just a general riding horse for me. I would really only consider a horse bred like that if I have shown myself that I am willing to show up and do horse shows regularly and that I am ready for a step like that. 



It seems like either people are more okay with 1 and really dislike 2 or they are more okay with 2 but really dislike 2.


All of this is really just kind of making me feel down and just want to give up and keep leasing forever so I dont have to worry about making the wrong decision.


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

I guess here is 4. Not sure if better or worse. adult is mom.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

ferricyanide said:


> Sorry I kind of fell off. He had missed one filly on his first go around with the pictures so I was partially waiting for that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The problem with asking everyone's opinion is; everyone has one and rarely do they match... 

Pick the one you want! Pick the one that calls to your heart. 

You are most likely saving a life if you get one of them, so just go for it. 

I once heard that the only thing we regret, is what we don't do. No regrets from trying something. 

No way we can see the future, so young horses are a gamble for anyone. Lots of things can happen to a young horse. Horses in general tend to find trouble, lol. 

Follow your heart, and you won't go wrong. 

I would love to start a baby, and do all the things "right" that I have made mistakes on in the past, but it won't happen. But maybe I can watch you learn and grow with the filly of your heart and enjoy the process. :smile:


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

#4 is cute! I still prefer #2 

My order of preference (based on filly and dam) (I like #2 dam best, lovely head and #4 dam is very well balanced) 

#2
#4
#3
#1


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

AnitaAnne said:


> The problem with asking everyone's opinion is; everyone has one and rarely do they match...
> 
> Pick the one you want! Pick the one that calls to your heart.
> 
> ...



Thanks, l appreciate that. I had a long rough day, I probably should have waited until tomorrow to post when I would be in a better mood.


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## 281187 (Sep 19, 2019)

AnitaAnne said:


> You are most likely saving a life if you get one of them, so just go for it.


I'm confused, how would they be "saving a life" by buying one of these foals? Theirs no indication that any of these fillies are in any kind of danger. 

And besides, kill buyers don't usually go out of their way to snap up foals. Not big enough for the kill plant, so it's a money sink to buy them and then dump them into a pasture to grow big enough to be worthwhile. Most would probably only buy a foal if they thought they could wrench someones heartstrings hard enough to get top dollar for it. 

Which in this time of Facebook pages begging for "bail" for kill buyer horses every day of every week, isn't unlikely.


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## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

> [QUOTE
> The problem with asking everyone's opinion is; everyone has one and rarely do they match...
> 
> Pick the one you want! Pick the one that calls to your heart.
> ...


[/QUOTE]

This is beautiful and so so true. Thank you, @AnitaAnne for expressing these ideas so eloquently!


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## Rudytoot (Feb 14, 2020)

I love the color of this baby. But this is what concerns me about it at this point. I am seeing a very straight shoulder and rump. It is ideal to have a 45* angle that goes from the shoulder down to the hoof where angles are needed. 
The rump is straight as well. Usually a horse with a straight shoulder will have a straight rump. 

I have found babies before that I was so excited about, and when I asked for more pictures or a video, I found great disappointment when they could not get their rear legs up underneath them. Be sure that when they walk, that they place the rear hoof in the exact place the front foot just left. 

Faulty mechanics with angles of the bones is where they can break down quickly. 

With straight lines on a horse in the rear and shoulders, there often is a hard ride. Like a car without any kind of shock absorbers.


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