# The Infamous Hip Swing While Mounting, with a Twist



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I got nothing to offer, but am looking forward to hear what others do. 

sounds like for your limited time with horses, you've gained a lot of experience and seem very capable.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Out of curiosity have you tried working with him at a mounting block? Maybe try teaching him to line up to it and then see how he reacts about you getting on from up higher? Also while getting on maybe try having his head slightly turned in so when he tried to walk off he gets pulled in a circle instead?

Would you post pics of your saddle on him?


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

I’d really prefer to watch both you and your horse for the best evaluation and suggestions, but here is something to think about.

While I prefer using a mounting block – at least initially, you might try the following. If a horse is turning its rear towards you when you mount, try turning its head towards you. Then, he will be less likely to turn his rear in the same direction. As an added benefit, he will be less likely to move off when you mount.

Next, consider treats. I know some people are opposed to this “on principle”, but treats can be a very effective training tool. If a horse is given a treat if he stands still – or once he stands still – after mounting, he is very likely to stand still after being mounted and look for a treat. Once this behavior is established, giving the treat not as necessary, although occasional reinforcement sometimes helps.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

evilamc said:


> Out of curiosity have you tried working with him at a mounting block? Maybe try teaching him to line up to it and then see how he reacts about you getting on from up higher? Also while getting on maybe try having his head slightly turned in so when he tried to walk off he gets pulled in a circle instead?
> 
> Would you post pics of your saddle on him?


Yep. He's wily enough to work all around it, even nearly bumped me off it. Funny thing is, when I get aggravated and just throw both hands in the stirrup and drop my weight on it, just to see if he'll swing into me, he doesn't move. IF I can get my boot in the stirrup and my weight off the ground before he can bump me, he doesn't move until I have my leg over the saddle and then WE'RE OFF!

Great if you need a shotgun start and don't care about having that second foot in a stirrup, sucks to be you if you just want to ride without aggravation.

I'd love to post pictures, but photobucket wants $399.99 dollars now for third party hosting, so NOW I have to go dig all my pictures up off my laptop here, and find a new host, and get new urls... and I hope photobucket dies a fiery death for their ransoming of their user's accounts.

Let me see what I can do. I got a really good picture of him a couple of days ago, but... Because Photobucket....


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

You can upload photos directly to the forum for free 

I agree treats may work well. I used clicker training with my gelding when he was 5 to teach him to line up and stand at the block. Literally NOTHING was working and I'd start getting frustrated.

So to keep my cool I tried to make it FUN for him and then laugh at him when he messed up because then he didnt get the treat.

First I started with teaching him to line up next to it...click...treat..then I'd stand on block and just stand there....click, treats....once he was good at that we went to putting a leg in the stirrup, if he moved, no click....no treat...and we started over. I just broke it down into steps and we slowly progressed. It worked VERY well for him and still does to this day. I can stand on anything and ask him to line up to me, he lines up and stands perfectly still until I'm on him, then I flex him to me and he gets a treat.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

tinyliny said:


> I got nothing to offer, but am looking forward to hear what others do.
> 
> sounds like for your limited time with horses, you've gained a lot of experience and seem very capable.


I don't know about all that, but I've had to learn fast, that's for sure. I'm no horse whisperer, but figuring out the predator/prey dynamic, the herd mentality, what they look for in 'alpha' leaders, etc, and simply getting to know the horses we have, their hang ups, their strengths and personalities, even where their scratchy spots are, has taken me a long way.

They don't scare me, never have, but there is a healthy respect there. LOL Making my self 'look big' and intimidating when they push me has also done wonders. I've even barked at them.

We ARE blessed to have former cutting horse riders, large animal vets, some barrel racers (adult and young adult) and even a couple of folks that breed their own horses and own studs as good friends. Even a guy that owns a rodeo stock company - he supplies all the animals, prizes, judges, etc. Our farrier is also a friend, so. We don't lack people we can simply call any time.

Bad thing is, for every You Can Reprogram this Horse person, we know 5 that say He is what he is, either sell him or deal with him. (or her), and we get: How old is that horse? 7? Yeah. Too old to teach... (???? I beg to differ! They don't suddenly get stupid at a certain age.)

I've also had to learn to filter the terrible advice (Get a bigger bit, that correction bit will give him brakes; run him till he's tired, that'll teach him to stop bolting - UHM NO. Trigger doesn't get tired. He'll run till he dies if you ask him to!) from the solid, helpful advice.

Anyway. Sorry for the rambling. I may just have to continue to prove to him he can't 'beat me' by hip-checking me and other evasive maneuvers.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

TXhorseman said:


> I’d really prefer to watch both you and your horse for the best evaluation and suggestions, but here is something to think about.
> 
> While I prefer using a mounting block – at least initially, you might try the following. If a horse is turning its rear towards you when you mount, try turning its head towards you. Then, he will be less likely to turn his rear in the same direction. As an added benefit, he will be less likely to move off when you mount.
> 
> Next, consider treats. I know some people are opposed to this “on principle”, but treats can be a very effective training tool. If a horse is given a treat if he stands still – or once he stands still – after mounting, he is very likely to stand still after being mounted and look for a treat. Once this behavior is established, giving the treat not as necessary, although occasional reinforcement sometimes helps.


I did try that, with the logic the body follows the head, and if he's moving his head toward me, his butt will go the other direction... yeah. It went the other direction. I got the swing-away trick. Back to the tight circles we went.

Snacks: Three months ago, he would not let you touch him or get close to him. He got bullied by our huge bay gelding though, whipped all over the pasture, and strangely enough, came running for ME to save him. Buried his head in my chest, the bigger horse came to a hopping stop (he'd been chasing Trigger all over the pasture) and backed off. I led Trigger to a smaller pasture, the 5 acre, put him in by himself. After that, he's been my best friend on the ground. Since then I bring him snacks every time I'm around him, which is daily.

I have started weaning him off heavy snack rewards for the basics, like letting me touch him, 'let me look' is what I repeat to him when I need to check his hooves, or he's got a scabby spot on his forehead and he jerks his head away, stuff like that. When he holds still, he gets a snack and a lot of soothing talk and affection.

I've backed off the snacks for that, but maintain the same soothing talk, I use the same phrases all the time (let me look; good man; come to me; back up, etc) I don't have to have a lead on him for him walk beside me and stop when I stop, back up when I back up, etc. Quite a few people that knew him last year, and have seen me work with him recently cannot believe the change in him.

Now. For snacks... I reserve those for 'next level' stuff - Not giving me crap when I put the rope halter/lead on his head (He wore the same cruddy old halter for over a year because he wouldn't let us take it off and put it back on without losing his mind and bolting away from us, we couldn't catch him, now there's none of that at all), no spazzing out over the saddle pad being brought out, or high-heading me when I put his headstall on, for standing still and not swinging out from under the saddle when I put it on him, etc. We still have to have a stop and sniff moment for every piece of tack, but he's not getting as anxious when I speed the process up a little each time. Still getting liberal snacks - peppermint horse treats, watermelon, nectarines, apples, quaker instant oatmeal maple and brown sugar flavor, etc. when he doesn't engage in drama. I've started playing music and kinda... gradually upping whats going on around us too, so he won't get all nervous when people walk up, the dogs bark, etc. I sing to him and talk almost non-stop, whatever it takes to keep his attention on ME, not other 'stuff' going on.

I did start keeping the snacks in my pocket now, and that's how we got to the whoa means whoa, even if its just verbal when I'm in the saddle stage. He did it one time, unexpectedly, he got a snack. Second time he did it, big praise, extra snack... etc. 

I just can't seem to get him past this bump, and he used to didn't do this, he always held very still for mounting. I wondered if he finds the round pen boring, but I tried mounting him out on the 5 acres and same result.

I do have video of me riding him, the problem is, my daughter took it on her phone, and she DID put it on facebook... but I have no idea how to get them saved to my computer, and I have no idea how to get them to youtube for hosting. I could figure the later out, not the former. However, so far, everyone I actually know in person that's seen the videos or been at the house while I'm riding him said they couldn't see anything I was doing wrong so much as posture or how I was sitting goes, the saddle or its placement, etc. (Except I need more confidence and experience at gaits beyond a trot, and they're right, I do, but i'm getting there.)

The first day I tried out the barrel saddle. It IS a little too far back I think, maybe an inch or so. The pad I feel should have came further forward too. He's a tricky horse to saddle - he is built NOTHING like our quarter horses, nothing at all like them. Also, I know the headstall is in the wrong hole on the hack - we own about 30 headstalls and not one of them is thin enough to fit through the slots for the leather on this Abetta hack. I am going to try a little S or a Reinsman made the same way to see if there's a better fit for the hangers. I had to modify this headstall...aka trim it way down with a box cutter just to get it to fit where it did.










This is from the day before yesterday and a better placement of the saddle, I think. (Note, he thought he could puff up and hold his breath so I couldn't get the cinch tight enough. I waited him out and caught him not paying attention)










And I imagine this picture is useless but its a dead-on shot... This is how he reacts when he knows I've gone to get snacks btw, because that's what I'd done, gone to the tack room to get a few more horse treats and he was awaiting my return.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

evilamc said:


> You can upload photos directly to the forum for free
> 
> I agree treats may work well. I used clicker training with my gelding when he was 5 to teach him to line up and stand at the block. Literally NOTHING was working and I'd start getting frustrated.
> 
> ...



Now this might work for him, minus the use of the block - I prefer to not use one because the places we ride? We might be there all day, take several Walk it Off and Stretch or Rest breaks, and there's not always something to stand on, sometimes not even a good rise of land to stand on higher ground, etc. I am more than willing to give the clicker/treat a go.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

It sounds as though you have been making progress.

Be sure you are not giving treats to gain favor. Think of them as a “tip” for special service – not as a bribe.

Associating treats with praise is good. Praise alone can, then, begin to take on the same effect as a treat.

After mounting, be sure to stop him if he moves off. Only then, praise him or give him a treat.

Be sure to talk to him when saddling. Let him know that you are not going to pinch him. Tighten the latigo in such a way that his skin does not fold over. Walk him a few feet, and you should be able to tighten the latigo some more. Consider removing the rear cinch. That may only be necessary if you are roping.

If he only recently began to move off when mounting, consider if you are doing anything differently. Think about your balance. Are you possibly leaning forward? Or could you be squeezing your legs to hold on in anticipation of him moving?


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Something I have done with horses that fuss a lot about mounting is to just do some on and off after the ride, the horse is more relaxed and is more willing to stand quietly especially if you don't go anywhere when you do get on, just get off again..
I have had some success with this when other methods fail.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

TXhorseman said:


> It sounds as though you have been making progress.
> 
> Be sure you are not giving treats to gain favor. Think of them as a “tip” for special service – not as a bribe.
> 
> ...


He's been fairly keyed up lately because we've moved the other horses around - they all like to buddy sour so I've taken to alternating who is in what pasture with who... this week we've had Jackie and Oops temporarily in the same pasture with him, and that's when it started - they'd hover just on the other side of the round pen, and two things seemed to be going on - Jackie, who is just short of 17 hands, was wanting to bully and intimidate him, and Oops is a 'friend', one of the only horses we have that doesn't whip up on him, so one was trying to get in the pen to be buddies and say hi and be all up in our business (She's only 18 months old and is a right brain extrovert so she's all up in everything, Trigger is a left brain extrovert - they get along famously) and the other was trying to get in the pen to bully him around. I've moved BOTH out of the 5 acre pasture because I cannot work with Trigger with Oops all up in everything, otherwise i'd have left her in there with him and just moved Jackie.

He can still see them from where he is though, and he tends to get worked up over them, however, I've been doing my best to tell him "You're with me..." And keeping his attention on me, not them.

Also, good advice on the bribe v. reward. Sometimes its easy to bribe, but I can see where that would undermine everything if one isn't careful. 

I AM making him stop immediately upon getting my leg over the saddle, although one day I wondered if he was just trying to make me nervous enough to not ride him, and so I just popped my other foot out of the stirrup and rode him anyway with no stirrups.

I will be keeping the rear cinch - we do a lot of riding in rough brushy areas - if you ever go north out of Plano through Tushka, OK, you drive right past us, and you're probably familiar with how thick the vegetation is in this area, even if you're riding on the shoulders of the roads. There's also a lot of variance in land levels - lots of steep gullies, creeks, hills, you name it. Outside of the round pen, we aren't riding in a controlled area. The back cinch isn't quite disposable considering where we ride. Some of the trails we rode last autumn had a couple of places where I started to wonder if we were going to have to Man from Snowy River our way down. There were places we genuinely had to lean back, hold the back of the saddle with one hand, and the reins with the other while our horses picked their ways down. 

I don't think that's what's bugging Trigger mind you, its possible but he's never reacted to having it tightened or having his belly or even flanks messed with - he lets me tickle, brush, fly spray, touch, scratch his belly and flanks all the time. Never moves or bats an eye. If he did and seemed sensitive to it, I'd have eliminated it already.

Also good advice on the walking around, then re-tighten the front girth... Thank you for the reminder. Honestly, I knew it, and yet it was in the foggy back corners of my brain because we only have one other horse that does that, our cagey old Superman, and he can poof out like a puffer fish. Its... actually kinda funny to watch him do it, but we've not been riding him a lot lately - he's getting clicky knee joints and the vet has him on a supplement and light duty orders for a little bit.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

And, please don't think I'm disregarding anyone's advice. There's a lot of good advice here, and I did ask for help. I'm mostly trying to reason through what I know he's doing and comparing it with what you are all suggesting, considering what may work and what probably won't. So far, I'm thinking the clicker and snack option may work best - he's intensely curious of 'things' - cell phones, sunglasses, watches, etc. Even new headstalls seem to really fascinate him while I'm putting the reins on them, etc. He HAS to look and smell and investigate. I'm thinking the clicker may be the right approach.


The On and Off approach AFTER the ride... I actually wondered if that would work or might be something I should try, @Woodhaven[MENTION]. I didn't know if it would actually yield desired results or make the problem even worse, so I just... didn't. I may try it as well.;


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I don't know what you should do about him moving into you, I circle them if they won't stand for mounting but you already tried that. As for him moving off before you're ready, have you tried making him stand in front of a fence or something? Hubby has trouble with his horse wanting to walk off before he is ready so I just stand my horse in front of him.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

when you are out riding, working during the day do you have to get off for any reason? and if so does he stand for mounting any better than the first time? This may give you a clue as to how he will behave with on and off after the ride.

I have done this often over the years with a horse that is not good to mount and it has always helped improve the problem. The main point is not to go anywhere at that time just mount and dismount. I use a mounting block for this to make it easier for me.
I have also taken a horse out with just a halter and done some work at standing at the mounting block while I just rub their back or lean on them to get them to learn to stand quietly and relax, they usually do as they know they are not going anywhere because of no saddle.
Good luck, he is a cute guy


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Woodhaven said:


> when you are out riding, working during the day do you have to get off for any reason? and if so does he stand for mounting any better than the first time? This may give you a clue as to how he will behave with on and off after the ride.
> 
> I have done this often over the years with a horse that is not good to mount and it has always helped improve the problem. The main point is not to go anywhere at that time just mount and dismount. I use a mounting block for this to make it easier for me.
> I have also taken a horse out with just a halter and done some work at standing at the mounting block while I just rub their back or lean on them to get them to learn to stand quietly and relax, they usually do as they know they are not going anywhere because of no saddle.
> Good luck, he is a cute guy


Exactly. Practice mounting at times when you are not planning to ride. Follow the session with something relaxing or rewarding for the horse to make it a positive experience.

One technique if you are going to use treats is to have a time where you just practice mounting and dismounting. Get on, get off and immediately give a treat (or just praise). Don't focus so much on how the mounting went, just get the horse focused on the reward he is soon to get when you get off. Soon the horse is thinking ahead about that treat, so he waits for you to do your little routine and then stands waiting because he knows you're going to give him the treat. 

There are other techniques you can use. With one horse that was very spooky I would give her a treat from the saddle. She'd stand with her neck turned back as I got on, then once I was settled I would reach forward and give her the treat. This kept her focused on that treat and she stopped thinking about anything scary happening when I got on. 

An important thing to consider besides the saddle fit is whether your mounting technique is making the horse uncomfortable. Especially if your saddle fit isn't perfect, mounting can cause torque on the sides of the spine. For horses that begin avoidance techniques for mounting, it's really good to make sure your technique is smooth, fast, that you don't poke the horse or fall heavily into the saddle. If your saddle leans heavily to one side as you mount, it is probably uncomfortable for the horse. A sensitive horse will resent this.

When I get on a horse, I always use elevation if at all possible. When mounting from a height, I think about putting as little weight into the stirrup as possible and pushing off with my ground leg so the motion is fast. I also think about swinging my leg high enough to clear the horse well, and then about easing myself very gently down into the saddle. If I have to mount from the ground, I have to try to jump even harder to keep from pulling on the saddle.


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## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi Atoka!

Sounds like a good candidate for some clicker training. It's easy enough to learn/do; might be worth a try. It's huge fun in any event 

https://clickertraining.com/horsetraining


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I don't have a lot to offer for correction here because swinging away, not standing still and immediately walking off once I'm on, are a couple of the sure fire ways to get yourself sold off at the earliest convenience here. So mine stand like rocks. And, we've raised every horse we have on the place now since they were yearlings at most. We have one exception, Dolly. I bought her as a 9 year old cutting reject who had been trained as a 2 y.o. and not touched since. Sent her for a tune up to see what she knew. My trainer is a lot like what you're describing near you, but he knows if he wants to keep getting my good youngsters, he's got to humor me with the odd older horse, and MARE, every now and then. And you know what? Dolly learned a lot and came a long way with him. So, no, a 7 y.o. is not too old to learn. I definitely call Bogus on that one. I do understand what they're saying when they don't want to deal with someone else's mess, that's how I got involved more on the breeding end than the buying end. Every time I bought a 5-7 y.o. horse that was allegedly trained, finished, I got a bucket of.......slop. But they're trainers and if they won't re-train an older horse, I lose a lot of respect for them.

None of that helps you particularly, but just wanted to offer support. It can be done, he can do it and right now he's still playing 'little boy games' with you. Once he decides to get serious about it I think you'll find a good horse in there.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I purchased a horse last August that I struggled mounting. Like your horse she had learned over time to evade the person standing next to her - and once she felt weight over her middle she literally started down the trail as fast as she could go. Now I firmly believe in mounting blocks - and understand that there are times when mounting from the ground is necessary - but for training a horse that moves I feel that the mounting block offers the horse some relief from the incredible torque a rider puts on the horse when mounting from the ground. 

some horses move when being mounted in anticipation of becoming unbalanced. A mounting block allows you to teach the horse to let you stand by its side no matter what. And in some cases having a horse trained to stand near something for mounting is a life saver if you get hurt on the trail and need to remount from a tree etc.

I started as Evilmc did and just gave treats for small steps - over time it cured my mare to let me put the mounting block near her and get on. It did not cure her of heading down the trail as soon as I was over her back I then used advice @PhantomHorse2 gave and that was to give her a treat as soon as I mounted and was in the saddle. This has helped tremendously! once I mount she turns her head in anticipation of the treat. Now that she stands better she does not get a treat every time but occasionally to reinforce the behavior.

This came in handy a couple of weeks ago when my daughter and I had to dismount and lead our horses over deadfall on the trail. I have had 4 knee surgeries on my left knee so mounting can be slow and not very graceful. I led my horse next to the deadfall lined her up. Crawled (literally) onto the tree and mounted. My horse stood stock still and let me get on and adjust myself in the saddle. she never moved! I keep treats in my horn bag and gave her 2! 

I have owned this 10 months and it has taken me that long to get this far. You have to be open to suggestions and try many different things.

Good Luck! You have made great progress so far - I am sure you can conquer this as well.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

I have tried the fence, railing, wall facing for the walk-off. Nope. He is agile enough and really quick footed. He can turn on a dime and before, he'd turn so fast I'd be left scrambling to hold my seat and not be left in the space he just vacated. That's the 'juke' I mentioned he does every so often. In a roping saddle, I couldn't feel him about to do it, so I was left reacting, not 'riding'. The barrel saddle, I feel it before he does it.

Also, on the mounting, I do confess to some heavy sloppy mounting in the past. Hence why my boobs have high-centered on the seat before (not on him, on a 'rented' trail horse in Springfield Missouri... (well that was embarrassing) and hence the crow-hop before mounting now. I've been working on putting a lot of umph and commitment, momentum, into getting off the ground and in the saddle fast. It just makes sense pulling hard on the side of the saddle hurts, so yeah, I want that minimized. In fact, in this barrel saddle, the first time I rode it (and it was on Trigger) I put too much umph into it and about shot myself off the other side... which my husband laughed at and said Still Better than the High Center on your Boobs Mount!

I started out not able to get off the ground (This is with our slightly taller Teacher Horse, Superman), so grabbed a 5 gallon bucket rather than risk pulling him over or hurting him... then I started parking him so he was standing on lower ground, me on a slight rise, and I was relying heavily on the saddle horn to pull up. Now I don't grab the horn much, mostly the back of the saddle and do my best to just 'pop up' off the ground in a smooth motion... Trigger moving around makes that hard... I nearly pulled him over the second time we rode and he tried the hip swing because while I was fully in the stirrup and standing ready to throw my leg over, he'd tried to swing his butt into me and I got the ground quicker than he re-balance... he was forced to shift his entire stance to stay on his feet, but that time he didn't walk off. He knew he'd lost the battle of wills.

Watched the vid... and I can say I like how they're thinking, but I'm nearly 45. I'm hardly light on my feet, but I'm getting better. However, I see how a shift in what I'm doing could help. In fact, I kept messing with him the other day like I was going to just hop up on him like this, and he kept swinging toward me. I was trying to tell if it was the weight pulling on the saddle, or him just not wanting to cooperate.

Didn't seem to matter if I pulled something up to use as a block, tried to John Wayne into the saddle (faked... I can, in no way, do that), or did something like in the video, or tried the usual grip the back of the saddle and crow hop a couple of times, or just stab my foot in the stirrup and go up with one hard push. Result is the same.

I'm thinking the whole practice mounting without actually riding anywhere after is a good idea. I like to tie him to the post just outside the tack room, saddle and unsaddle him, work on him not spazzing so much when the tack comes out (its a long, slow process to tack him up) and maybe I need to add the mounting practice, for him AND me... and reward with snacks afterwards. He's been very, very responsive to snacks and praise/affection rewards, so... 

That also plays into something else I've been doing - I try to keep him guessing if he's getting led to the tack room area. Is it a riding day? Nothing but snacks and hanging out, listening to music and getting brushed? Are we going to saddle up, then do nothing? Maybe the farrier is here... IDK... But I better go with her, just in case its nothing but snacks and brushing! I try to keep him off guard, but still trusting me. I can add this to the routine.

I keep seeing mention of mounting blocks, and I can't stress enough how much I DON'T use those. I don't want to rely on that because there's rarely anything like that handy where we ride, and yes I do get off him and back on every time I have him in the round pen, every time I ride the others somewhere 'off'. On the taller horses, I look for a slight incline or even a pond dam, use it to have the higher ground so I don't put any more stress on them than needed to mount, but even then, there are times I've had to mount from flat ground, put all I had into it, and hope for the best, and apologize to the horse when it was over. Our quarter horses (except Sarge) have never fussed at me, but Trigger... is very different natured. 

Also, even if I do break down and try a block or something to double as a mounting block, he reacts exactly the same. My big bay, Sarge, likes to try to walk backwards to evade anyone, not just me, but anyone, including people who ride horses every single day for a living, and I did the whole mounting block thing because he's just so darn tall... Same thing. Walk backwards. So I faked him out and led him to believe he was still tied to the post. He wasn't. He stood still. Because he knew/thought we weren't going anywhere. I think Trigger has it in his mind he can get out of work if he evades. Sarge is the same way... and now Sarge likes to buck a little to try to spook us into not riding him. We don't let him win at that game either. And yes, he's physically fit, not a thing wrong with him. Note: Sarge and Trigger were both bought at an auction. Sage at an Amish auction, Trigger from Cleburn Texas. Both are someone else's mess. Neither Gina or Superman do this. Nope didn't, Leroy didn't (despite being a livestock auction horse). 

Will be adding the get on, get off, snack practice, possibly today and just over by the tack room and maybe while he's tied up with a lead, not wearing his hack, rather than in the round pen.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Mention on the trainers not wanting to clean up someone else's mess in a 7 year old and up... I suspect because right now, for the time and effort and money you'd put into a poorly taught or mishandled horse's reeducation, you can just buy a well trained, perfectly lovely animal trained by the same people. 

Most folks just don't want to clean up someone else's mess, even when its a horse. In fact, that was the overwhelming advice I got: Sell him, even if its to a kill pen, and invest in a better behaved horse, because he is what he is and he will never be better.

That just ticked me right off, tbh. The passing off of this horse has to stop somewhere, that's probably why he ended up at the Cleburn auction... And since no one wants to work with him, for any amount of money, I'm having to do it and intuit my way through it.

I also keep expecting him to stop evading after only a couple or three times of trying to work him out of it, then I remember its taken me three whole months just to be able to get to the point of riding him again, and him trusting me enough to continue to let me touch him and lead him without a lot of drama. I guess I just didn't think we'd run into THIS sort of hang up. I expected he'd stand still like he always has before, and what we'd get in the pen is him wanting to stay in high gear and not downshift to a walk when asked. Trying to hip-check me to bump my foot away from the stirrup was NOT something I anticipated.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I understand wanting the horse to stand for a ground mount and not wanting to be reliant on a mounting block. Just remember that a mounting block is a tool and can be used a few times and then not anymore once the initial training/problem is corrected. It's a way to kind of rechannel his thought process and to take the pressure off your knees & his withers while you sort the issues out. I always use SOMETHING to mount regardless of where we are. I can't ground mount anymore, I've had reconstructive knee surgery and an ACL graft. Not going to stress those for a ground mount to a really tall horse with my 5'2" frame, so I find a way regardless of where we are. It sometimes requires some walking and searching but where there's a will there's a way. So my one recommendation would be to tie him fast, use the block, and then untie him and back him away from whatever you tie him to once you're up. Do it over and over and over and he'll probably always have those moments when he reverts. But you can work through it so that you mostly don't have the issues. 

I had to laugh at your shooting over the other side mounting story. I did a very similar thing out at Lake Carl Blackwell. My old guy, who is now running Heaven's pastures, decided it would be great fun to move out, move in, go forward, go back, you name it, to avoid being mounted one day. I got frustrated and told him, "Ok, that's how you want it, that's how you get it." and I got up on the running board of the trailer (again, mounting block so I know his back was fine) and coiled up for a big jump when he swung his butt out just as I was ready to mount, put my left foot in the stirrup and PUSHED. He didn't move and I shot over his back like I'd been shot out of a cannon. I was younger then than you are now, so just did a tuck & roll, so no harm no foul but ..... boy was I embarrassed especially when all the other folks around me started rating my gymnastics.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I understand wanting the horse to stand for a ground mount and not wanting to be reliant on a mounting block. Just remember that a mounting block is a tool and can be used a few times and then not anymore once the initial training/problem is corrected. It's a way to kind of rechannel his thought process and to take the pressure off your knees & his withers while you sort the issues out. I always use SOMETHING to mount regardless of where we are. I can't ground mount anymore, I've had reconstructive knee surgery and an ACL graft. Not going to stress those for a ground mount to a really tall horse with my 5'2" frame, so I find a way regardless of where we are. It sometimes requires some walking and searching but where there's a will there's a way. So my one recommendation would be to tie him fast, use the block, and then untie him and back him away from whatever you tie him to once you're up. Do it over and over and over and he'll probably always have those moments when he reverts. But you can work through it so that you mostly don't have the issues.
> 
> I had to laugh at your shooting over the other side mounting story. I did a very similar thing out at Lake Carl Blackwell. My old guy, who is now running Heaven's pastures, decided it would be great fun to move out, move in, go forward, go back, you name it, to avoid being mounted one day. I got frustrated and told him, "Ok, that's how you want it, that's how you get it." and I got up on the running board of the trailer (again, mounting block so I know his back was fine) and coiled up for a big jump when he swung his butt out just as I was ready to mount, put my left foot in the stirrup and PUSHED. He didn't move and I shot over his back like I'd been shot out of a cannon. I was younger then than you are now, so just did a tuck & roll, so no harm no foul but ..... boy was I embarrassed especially when all the other folks around me started rating my gymnastics.


I don't blame you on the mounting block. I'm tall - 5'9" and I do cheat a little with Sarge because he's just so big... larger than Leroy, our BIG horse was. Our shop where the tack room is was built on an elevated pad, so the ground slopes off (which is why in some pictures Trigger appears to be a downhill or uphill horse - he's not, just on uneven ground). I always try to mount him from the 'high side' of the ground. Trigger isn't a tall horse, just a bit taller than Supes, our stoic teacher horse.

Should I find him still being silly with the tie up mounting practice, I may well work in a cinder block *we have lots of those around* just until he moves past this hang up. I may also work on mounting him where I do Sarge so I have the high ground and its less effort to get on him, and hopefully for him and me both, less stressful...

Basically, rather than skip to working him in and out of various gaits, I'm going to have to back up, rethinking the progress and the process... and tackle this issue first.


Shooting over the saddle... still not as bad as hanging up high center and the cowhand that works the trail ride grabbing your rear and shoving you on up. *dies*

In my defense... those stirrups were set for a 9 year old. I might as well been trying to ride at Remmington Park they were so short. That horse decided to drag his feet for more than half the ride, and I finally got irked, hit him on the rear with the rein and off we went... buuutttt I had heck staying seated. Had I stood up in the saddle? I'd have looked like a horse jockey, but y'know. 5'9".


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

gottatrot mentioned mounting technique and I never thought of that at first but I have to say I have seen many people give a horse a nasty jab in the elbow with the stirrup when getting on and off, that would sure start a horse moving. Even if you don't do this there could be a memory of it that makes the horse uneasy.

I had a friend come ride with me and I noticed that getting on and off, she didn't want to use the mounting block, that the horse got a good jab in the elbow. My mare didn't move but her head came up and ears back so I know it hurt. I mentioned this to my friend and she insisted that she didn't do that but I sure did see it happening so I suppose people don't even know they are doing it to a horse and then wonder why the horse doesn't want to stand quietly.

Just thought I would mention this as something to think about when mounting.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Do you have another saddle? That one is sitting right over where is scapula is going to be when he's walking, and when you put weight on it when mounting, it's going to encourage him to move. Maybe try sliding it back an inch or two? 

Also, consider teaching him to come 'pick you up' from the mounting block or fence. This does work, and some horses pick it up within a short time, while others need more. It comes in handy for horses who resist mounting or move off during mounting, too.

Teach horse to ‘pick up’ rider from mounting block:


Need: snaffle bit, saddled horse, dressage whip, couple of straight panels of fence, mounting block.


To start, put horse parallel to fence a few feet away. Right side of horse toward fence. Stand to horse’s left side. Raise hand toward horse’s hip, and give a cue. (Smooches work well). Tap horse’s hip repeatedly with whip. Allow a step or two forward. Motion to the right will be blocked by fence. As soon as horse takes even the slightest step TOWARD you, stop tapping and praise. Start again. Repeat until horse will step all the way around semi circle to the left so you can easily mount from the fence with only the hand/voice cue. Repeat from top of fence.

Then, try again using the mounting block. Eventually, you should be able to cue horse, on a long line, from 20 or more feet away, and he will sidepass toward you to be mounted from the block, fence, stump, etc. Train from both sides if you want.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

If Trigger sees a dressage whip in my hand, he is going to lose his mind. I don't even let him see the one quirt we own and never use anyway. He was most likely badly beaten in the past - he shuts down and stands there and shakes and sweats if you so much as get out a lariat and start working it while you're on the ground and he can see you. He will hide his face in my chest when our boys work with their ropes nearby. As long as its on the ground or tied to a saddle, he doesn't care. Walk around with anything in your hand that you could smack him with? (Even a hair brush at one time) he will blow up emotionally and shut down.

The way he's saddled in the second pic is possibly a bit too far forward. As I mentioned, he's tricksy to saddle because I'm used to our tank-built quarter horses. I don't mind trial and error on moving the saddle around - if he's uncomfortable, he's more likely to be flighty and reactive so I'm really trying to eliminate everything that could cause it. That and let's be honest, who would want to be saddled and forced to walk around or trot with something digging into you and creating pressure points? I do have a comfort pad (Squishy foam) that I can put under the saddle pad, but as hot and humid as its been, I was afraid it would be too much.

I know doing away with the back cinch also suggested earlier in the thread, but he has never shown any discomfort or concern with it. So far as his belly and flanks, I tickle, brush, fly spray, scratch, etc all the time and he is absolutely non-reactive to that. 

And again, I'm not disregarding the advice! Please don't think that. But I do feel I need to work by process of elimination. He will lose his mind if I try what you've suggested. A lunge line scares the hell out of him, much like the lariat. I've gotten him to tolerate the lariats, but he just barely holds himself together.

(He also was terrified of people in sunglasses, especially men, in sunglasses... with a lariat in their hands. The bigger the glasses, the more afraid he was. Take them off, put them away, he was fine. Put them on, he'd fall apart and start to shake. My husband thought I was nuts until he witnessed it first hand and he had the sunglasses on. Its taken a year to get him to not worry about sunglasses.)

Which all just makes me realize even more than before what a sad trainwreck Trigger was when we got him, because what a lot of people can do to train their horses in this thread would absolutely end him and take him back to the distrust and fear. Now he's just anxious. Anxious is better than terrified of everything and everyone.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

well, maybe you should not be mounting up on a hrose that has this much fear packed in him. I know I wouldn't want to.

Is it possible that by taking away the scary thing (sunglasses, for example) when your horse starts to become fearful and terrified, you only reinforce that reaction. you see, he got scared, started to shake, and then the scary thing went away. NOw he may think that the only way he can get rid of it and get relief from his terror is to become terrified and shake.

In some cases, it is necessary to stay in there with the scary thing, making certain it doesn't actually hurt the hrose, until the horse stops reacting in fear. I'm sure you've done a lot of that with this horse, so, this suggestion might be a pure waste of your time . I know for some horses the fear is so deep that they can't be helped through it by the method I am describing. But, sometimes the only way out is through.


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## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi Again, Atoka.

As far as I can determine, horses will/may forgive, but they never forget. It may take years for him to get over being afraid, and he may never get over it totally.

He really does sound like a good candidate for work with a clicker, and rather than trying to do the saddle thing, it would almost certainly be beneficial to spend time on the ground playing clicker with him. And nothing special, just basic targeting, maybe "fetch", and/or any other simple tricks you/he find appealing. The no-pressure, reward based games you play will go a long way toward building his trust and confidence back, without much risk of setbacks. (Or injuries to either of you.)

And it really is easy to do; get a clicker from PetsMart for a dollar, and a bag of horse treats, or a cut-up carrot, and have at it. There should be enough nfo on the link I posted earlier to at least get you started, and Alex Kurtland is _very_ good, and easy to follow.

Steve


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

That was a year and a half ago. He was absolutely a mess. In fact, he came to a point he wouldn't let anyone touch him or get near him, and that's having never abused him here. I've worked steadily with him to get him past his fears and only in the last three months has he come to trust me. We have to look at the scary things, smell them, I rub them on his shoulder gently (Fly spray is the most recent and it took him all of 15 minutes to accept it and stand perfectly still; cell phones - I can't tell if he's anxious or curious or both, probably both, so we talk about those, listen to music, take pictures with it, stuff like that. Instead of shying away now, he wants to lip it and push it around with his nose.) That's how he's gotten over the sunglass concerns. He still likes to look at them and sniff and investigate them if you take them off but he doesn't toss his head and roll his eyes anymore, or act like he notices them at all unless you put them on or pull them off right in front of him... which I do anyway.

I'm not plugging my journal here on him, but a lot would be more clear if you wanted to read it: Saving Trigger. Its long, its rambling, I do apologize. But he's come a million miles from where he was and I refuse to give up on him, especially now that I've earned his trust.

He's a whole different horse than he was in February. Even the people that recommended he be sold without hesitation cannot believe the change in him. The Get a Bigger Bit/Use a Bigger Whip/Dominate Him/He Cannot Change people were all horribly wrong. He doesn't rear up any more (Bits were the problem, didn't matter what kind but also anyone that tried to bully him while riding - that's why I have a total ban on anyone but me riding him now and it is zero tolerance); he doesn't shake his head, he doesn't shake apart or sweat and tremble when I ride him or ask him to stand still while I'm in the saddle (We do a LOT of that in the pen, just walk, trot, whoa, stand, back up, turn in varying degrees of sharpness and speeds, all with a lot of praise and now I keep snacks in my pocket for him while riding)

A whip, dressage or otherwise, is something I will not force him to accept. He doesn't need one, we don't use them for any reason, and the one we have was given to us in a bundle of free tack. Someone has most likely roped him to catch him regularly, and beat him with the raw end of the rope, and there's only so many bad memories I think he's prepared to endure surfacing again. Too many knowledgeable people have watched him react to the lariats and run away and hide if you try to walk up him in the pasture with one and have all said the same thing: Someone beat his *&^ badly with a rope, didn't they? Yeah. Probably so. 

I'm going to try the reward and repeated patient practice on him until he stands still as others have suggested and just back track to working on standing still for mounting rather than skip to the riding in the round pen for a while. I'm going to try a different position of the saddle, perhaps put the comfort foam pad under his saddle pad. Continue with my snacks for good behavior and rewards, lots of physical affection and verbal praise. (But also showing him empty crackling water bottles and walmart bags on a fishing pole aren't going to eat him - we're almost there, he's almost totally non-reactive to those these days)


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I used giving treats at mounting to help train a perfectly calm horse to line up at the mounting block. before that, he had only ever been mounted from the ground. I still give him his treat after mounting up. I'm just a softy, and it doesn't make him any worse. now he looks forward to it. 

Best of luck . I think you'll get there, since you come so far already.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Thank you Tiny. I didn't mean to sound absolutely resistant to the dressage whip, etc, its just I know how he handles some things. Some I can convince him to accept - the water bottles are a biggie right now, I wasn't thinking, emptied half a bottle while on him in the pen, then capped it and tossed it forward and out of the ring... it landed Right There in front of him, crunched and popped and OH MY GOD IT IS GOING TO EAT ME spook. No bucking mind you, just a lot of fancy dancing footwork all of a sudden. He calmed quickly with just some calm words and reassurance, some petting on the neck and scratching. But now I mess with them when I'm leading him around - show him, crackle them, throw them UP high, let them land, stomp them, kick them... He still throws his head when I toss them up, but all the other stuff? Eh. Nah. He just doesn't care any more.

Some things I feel he MUST over come to be rideable away from 'home' or even the pen: Sunglasses, MEN, loud teenage boys, lariats, lots of dogs milling around, loud music (He likes George Strait - seems to sooth his frazzled nerves and strangely... and I question his taste in music, Nickleback), cars going by on the road, four wheelers starting up, cows running around, velcro being pulled apart, blowing feed sacks and walmart bags... a rope laying on the ground, etc. He has to confront his concerns and fears about those and get over them or yes, he will only stay fearful if I shelter him from them. I draw the line with a quirt or a dressage whip. I know very few people that use them, and he will never come into contact with them. I always make him come that one last step to me to get his treat when he's out in the pasture - I pat my belly with an open palm (No idea why I started doing this) and repeat very quietly: Come to me... and he will, snack or not now. I can walk toward him, and say back up and never touch him, and he'll back right up but keep the same distance between us, then I can walk backwards, ask him to come to me, and he will do it. I can walk all over the pasture and he paces right beside me like he's on a lead, but without having even seen one that day. No one can even believe that, let alone that he's not losing his mind being ridden. 

And this has all been very treat and gentle touching lots of praise heavy to get him here. I'm just going to have to concentrate on the mounting issues for a while and go through a lot more treats. I was skipping that stage and that may have been one of the problems. I don't know yet, but I'm going to find out.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Honestly, I would work on the fear issues before doing anything else with him. You may not think he'll ever see a whip, but what happens if someone breaks off a branch riding on a trail in front of you, or is carrying a stick? A horse that is full of that much fear needs to learn to deal with his fears before you do much else with him, or it's only a matter of time before he finds something that terrifies him and hopefully when that happens, you don't get hurt.

A dressage whip/handy stick/carrot stick/what have you should not be a source of fear to a horse. Whether he was beaten with it in the past or not is irrelevant-- he's afraid of it, so teach him not to be. You can't desensitize a horse to EVERYTHING but you can teach him to look to you and trust that you're not going to put him in a situation that scares him, and once a horse realizes that, THEN you have a much safer horse to ride and work around because you're not wondering when the next blowup is going to come. Don't look for things that don't scare him-- look for things that do and help him work through that. If he's scared of a whip, lean it up against the wall of the round pen and ignore it while you work with him. Once he's ok with it there, put it somewhere else. Toss it on the ground. Sit on the top rail and ignore him and wave it around. Don't stop waving it until he stops moving-- that's key. He can make the scary thing stop by standing still. So he learns that you aren't going to hurt him, and at the same time, helps his brain learn to think instead of merely reacting. While I'm not the world's biggest fan of Clinton Anderson, his methods of desensitizing a fearful or spooky horse work really well. You may not be able to start out right next to the horse, but start where you get his attention without scaring him so much he'd go over the pen rails. That might be 100' away. That might be 10' away. That might be in the pen. 

I have a spooky horse from an unknown background that I got about two weeks ago. Some things he's great with, other things scare him to death. He's scared of a lot of things, but he's getting SO much better with groundwork and the fact that I find something that scares him nearly every day I'm out there, and we work through it. Fly spray. Hose. Saddle blanket in the wind. Lariat rope. Water bottles that crinkle. It took him 30 minutes on the first day to stand still and accept his fly spray because he learned that dancing around in a circle didn't make the spray stop-- stopping his feet did that, and once he realized that, he realized that the spray didn't hurt him. Second day he moved around for about 30 seconds then stood. Third day, two steps. Yesterday I sprayed him while he was grazing in the pasture without a halter. He spooked at the saddle blanket the other day, so rather than ride, we did ground work with the blanket. Less than half an hour later I'm tossing it over his head, around his legs, and sliding it off his hip and down around his hooves. Now that he knows the drill, we'll start on the stuff that isn't just new, but is scary due to past association-- he's been whalloped with a lariat because he's afraid of that, too, and of anyone swinging anything while in the saddle. I've spent a few sessions in groundwork accustoming him to the tail of the leadrope being tossed around him and he's good with that, so yesterday we went out for a long ride and I spent most of it moving around in the saddle and flipping the ends of the reins around and generally letting him realize that things moving are not that scary. After 5 miles, he was happy to walk along on a loose rein while I waved my arms, flapped the stirrups, flipped the end of the mecate around, jiggled my spurs, etc. A horse gets tired of spooking and scooting eventually, especially when he realizes nothing is hurting him. When we got back, I put the lariat on the ground nearby while I untacked and groomed him. I put it over my left arm when I led him back to the pasture. Right now it's hanging on the post near the run-in shed where he'll walk past it every time he goes in and out for shelter and/or water. Tonight I'll move it closer to where the horses spend the afternoon out of the sun and flies where the wind will move the tail of it a little. Tomorrow I'll start working on him with it-- letting him see me toss it around and drag it around and ignoring him until I can get close to him with it, then I'll halter him and let him learn that when I make noise with it or move it around, it doesn't hurt. He can move around all he wants to help him take the fear away, and I won't chase him with it, but I won't stop moving until he stops his feet. Once a horse realizes that, a lightbulb comes on and you've made progress. After a few weeks you'll have a really hard time finding something that will spook your horse.

I'm all for helping a horse get over his fear rather than making sure he's never in a situation around something that scares him. You can't control that-- some day, something will happen and that's when someone gets hurt. Teach him to overcome his fear and anxiousness where you control the situation. Look at it this way-- you never know what might happen that would mean you'd have to sell your horses. Give your horse the best chance of ending up in a good home by teaching him to overcome fears and trust people, rather than sheltering him from something you may not use, but others might. You can't control what happened in his past, but you also can't feel sorry for him for it. Teach him to work through that and you'll go a long way toward ensuring his future isn't the kill pen. Just my .02.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Don't get me wrong-- it sounds like you've done a lot of good with your horse and are making progress, but a fearful horse is a horse that is going to get you hurt someday. It's amazing what horses can learn to accept once they trust you and start to think rather than just reacting. Watching the lightbulb come on is SO rewarding. And then the day something happens that you can't control -- (one of mine was when a grouse flew up out of the bushes and got stuck under my mare's tail on a narrow mountain trail) you have a horse who will stop and stand rather than bucking over the side. My mare let me slither off, lift her tail, and release the bird. She was still afraid, but she didn't react, and she trusted me to fix it. You really can't proof for stuff like that, you have to get in the horse's mind.

I told my boy the other day--- cavalry horses were taught to charge into cannon fire... he could certainly get over a crinkly plastic water bottle. And he did.  Snorting and galloping wide-eyed around the pen turned into standing and licking and chewing with one leg cocked while I crinkled and tossed said bottle all around. Some horses take longer than others, particularly if they've been abused, but you can help them get over those fears and have a lot safer horse in the meantime. Plus, it's amazing how many other issues seem to go away once your horse is no longer looking for something to be afraid of. Barn sour issues tend to go away as most of those are caused by insecurity on the horse's part. Horses that won't stand seem to relax and stand. Your mounting issues may go away. My boy went from going seven miles in a gaited, lathery, barnsour, apprehensive mess last week to 5 miles yesterday walking on a loose rein the last mile and the only real 'training' I've done on him was teaching the 1-rein emergency stop, some work on lateral flexion, and work on his fears. That's it. You can do it-- you love your horse, he trusts you, and helping a horse not to be afraid and not to be looking for the next thing that scares him is one of my favorite parts of training.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> I don't blame you on the mounting block. I'm tall - 5'9" and I do cheat a little with Sarge because he's just so big... larger than Leroy, our BIG horse was. Our shop where the tack room is was built on an elevated pad, so the ground slopes off (which is why in some pictures Trigger appears to be a downhill or uphill horse - he's not, just on uneven ground). I always try to mount him from the 'high side' of the ground. Trigger isn't a tall horse, just a bit taller than Supes, our stoic teacher horse.
> 
> Should I find him still being silly with the tie up mounting practice, I may well work in a cinder block *we have lots of those around* just until he moves past this hang up. I may also work on mounting him where I do Sarge so I have the high ground and its less effort to get on him, and hopefully for him and me both, less stressful...
> 
> ...


My very first saddle was a jockey's exercise saddle. I used to breeze my parent's horses when I was a little kid. Know all about jockey stirrups and standing up in the saddle. Riding that way and hunt seat got me 'hung up' the first time I rode western. We were out on trail and went up a very steep hill, so I stood up and leaned forward. Hooked my bra right over the saddle horn. Yeah, going down the other side was a bit nerve wracking.


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## QHMama (Jul 3, 2017)

I had a mare like this once. Best thing I ever did was take her to a Buck Brannaman clinic. We both got our butts spanked. My mare was a devil and a half about "allowing" me to mount. She would start to move into me as soon as stepped towards her side. I'd move move her hip away from me with a sharp smack of the rein on her flank. This was successful to teach her not to step on me but then she started to move away from me when I would step to her side. Buck first asked me why I would want to mount a moving horse? He then taught me about desensitizing her to the stirrup movement (flapping) and getting to her mind through her feet. I was supposed to teach her to think she should stand still not think about moving around. I know that's not helpful but I do have his "7 Clinics" videos and watch them anytime I have an issue. Using his methods it took about an hour the first day to finally get her to stand still long enough for me to get on and then when I did she would start walking but he had an answer for that too. If she wanted to walk pull her head round and make her circle until she stopped on her own, then give her praise. If she tried to walk off without me asking, do it again. You know it didn't take very long and that girl would stand still, turn her head to me as I mounted, stand and flex until I said we go. That was years ago and I do that with all my horses now. Makes sense. Why would I want to mount a moving horse? I can't dance, I'm too fat to fly, so I ride.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

No suggestions.. Just want to say I admire you for rehabbing this horse and not giving up .


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I use a mounting block for getting on the first time. After I've ridden for 15-30 minutes, I loosen up and it isn't as hard for me to mount.

Here is a video on mounting techniques. I still grab toward the back of the saddle. My horse seems happier that way, and he isn't the sort to run off. I was taught that after mounting, one ought to take a minute to relax, wiggle in the saddle, roll a smoke (kidding)...and let the horse associate mounting with standing still for another minute.






I've never had a horse move into me when mounting. Seems like it would almost make it easier to mount. But if it is hard enough to knock you off balance, I guess I'd plan on letting his moving side encounter the toe of my boot, or my fist, or an elbow or knee.

One advantage to mounting like the video shows is that once you put weight into the stirrup, you are pretty much ready to go yourself.

Another thing my MIGHT try...how I was first taught to mount a horse. It kind of looked like these pictures:



















Hopefully, it doesn't finish like this:










The pictures are all from a great website: Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide

Anyways, as I was taught, you faced the rear near the shoulder. You got your foot in the stirrup, facing the rear. Your near side rein was kept short. Then the mount was a circular motion, swinging up and around all at the same time. If the horse started to move, the short near side rein was supposed to get him circling in the same direction you were. And you had one hand on the mane and one on the horn to help you if he took off forward.

My saddle has twisted fenders, and if I try that now, the side of the fenders rubs very hard against the horse. Not good. Not good at all!

And that brings up a point. Get someone to watch you mounting, to see if a toe or knee is accidentally poking, and to see if anything in the saddle is grabbing somewhere or rubbing the horse wrong. It is very easy to drag a toe against the horse without realizing it.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think the horse has several problems which exacerbate the mounting problem
I would go right back to ground work, make whoa absolute, and certainly, on respecting your space, thus never swinging hips towards you
Also, without knowing his past, he might have been ridden by someone that even encouraged him to move off, soon as that person started to mount.
As a teenager, I was actually kinda proud *show off) knowing no better, and when mounting taht spoiled stallion I talked about, that my mis guided step father bought me, took pride that I could mount like those cowboys in those old westerns. . You know, where that hero/villain gets one foot in the stirrup and finishes mounting while the horse is in full gallop!
He can also very likely associate pain with being mounted, as mentioned, and it will take time for him to realize using some mounting type bloke advantage, does not put that torque on his withers
Since I had very bad knees for years, before double replacement, it became very important that all my horses learned to stand at a 'mounting block ', which could be just ground advantage, the wheel well of my trailer, a log, ect, ect
I also showed many of my horses at halter, even some that were old enough to be also shown under saddle
Thus, whoa, and then having the horse learn to stand squared up was taught. I would ground tie them that way, while grooming, walk them where other hroses were distractions, and expect them to whoa and stand square. That means no body part moves
At the mounting block, I would line them up, tell them '\whoa\
If they moved any body part, even if I could still get on, I would not. I would get off the block, 'make the wrong thing hard, away from that block, and take them back , giving them a chance to do the right and easy thing. (stand there, on a loose rein.
Once on, I never just rode off immediately, or always straight ahead. I might ask for their poll, perhaps flex them once or so laterally, although I am no fan of over flexing at the standstill. Maybe sit there on a loose rein for a minute or so. 
I might then ride ahead, or back a step or so, and do a 45 degree turn on the haunches and ride off. Point being,the horse learns to wait on you
On the other hand, horses that move off immediately, pain reason excluded, often had riders who allowed them to move off as they were partly on. Since that started at just a walk, if not corrected, can escalate
Anyway, that is what works for me, as even now , with double knee replacements, while I can get on from the ground, if I really have to, I also don;t have that spring to mount without pulling myself up, thus avoid doing so at all cost.
I try always to find some ground advantage, and my horses must stand. Sometimes I even put them in the ditch, riding down the road, to get back on, without any other 'mounting block available.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Another thing to try is having someone hold the horse, and get up, lean over the saddle, then right back down. Don't even swing your leg over. Just up, pause, down. Up, pause down, from both sides until the horse stands. Then mount, swing your leg over, right back off--- on and off, on and off, on and off both sides until the horse relaxes. Don't even sit up there long enough for him to move, just get right back off again. Once he's standing while you do that, you're done for the day. Next session, sit up there longer but still get on and off, on and off, over and over again until it's an 'old hat' for the horse. Session after that, make a production of it. Sing, talk, rattle your spurs, wear chaps, flap the latigos and slap the fenders, rub his mane, swing around and pat his rump then brush his ears, do anything you can think of to make him think about moving without cueing him to. Continue until he won't move. The progress to doing this without your helper where the horse's forward progress is blocked-- a corner of a pen, stall, etc. Then move farther away from the fence. Work on leading your horse up to a stump, trailer fender, mounting block and getting on there expecting him to stand-- even if you don't use one, someone might need to some day, so he needs to learn that. Make mounting such a boring, mundane experience for your horse that he barely notices when you do it. Only after you can get on and off, sit, flap, make noise, etc. and he doesn't move should you ask him CLEARLY to walk forward. You may be getting on and off and never moving your horse for two weeks, but it will be time well spent. If you let the horse get away with moving, you're teaching him that's what you want. Again, it all comes back to groundwork.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Sorry for the lapse in an update here - had terrible weather all last weekend, didn't get to work with him much.

Saddled him up yesterday, and the second I put the squishy pad on his back - he hip checked me.

I ignored it, went and got the actual saddle pad, he hip checked me again - to try to keep me from lining up the saddle pads right, I assume.

I ignored him and kept right on keeping on.

Saddle - he didn't move when I saddled him up, but he tried a third time to hip check me when I pretended to try to mount up while he was still tied to the post and in his halter.

I put my shoulder into the side of the saddle, palm on his shoulder, and pushed back to force him to square up, pretended again to put my foot in the stirrup, he didn't move.

Put the hackamore on him, led him to the round pen, didn't have one bit of trouble with him so far as mounting up.

Buuutttt then he just wanted to turn to the right and in ever increasingly tight circles. Complete with tantrums if I plow reined him to go left. *sigh* Jerk.

So. I obliged him and even kicked him into a trot and just let him do circles, in a trot, till he was sick of circles to the right, then I made him do a few more. Each and every time he fought me to go left, and insisted on a right hooking turn, I made him turn till he was sick of it.

We will be riding again this evening, just to see if he's over himself. 

He was a little more jumpy than usual last night - we had Sarge saddled up and standing nearby, and Sarge is the one horse we have that if left in the same pasture with Trigger will bully and chase him relentlessly. He never seemed to even acknowledge Trigger, but yeah. Trigger was sure fixated on SARGE. I had to talk to him a lot, keep his attention on me, not Sarge the entire evening.

Addition: Two saddle pads under a barrel saddle defeats the purpose of a barrel saddle, at least for my purposes. I couldn't feel him as well, nor he me. There was some confusion on body language yesterday and I suspect some of it was the extra thick pads. Back to just one good pad we go.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You above post just confirms that the horse has way more problems them mounting issues, and needs to go back to basics
I assume all physical reasons have been ruled out, far as him being so stiff to the left
Just making him do more right circles, the direction he wants to go in, is not addressing the root problem. 
He needs to be taught leg aids,shoulder control, yield correctly to pressure
He does not need a buddy tied up near him while being worked. He needs to learn to accept being separated, and remaining focused on you. When he only wanted to turn right, was that buddy tied so he was acting like a magnet?
The horse needs to spend time being tied up, alone.
He needs to learn to follow his nose with his entire body, and for that, he has to move off/yield to leg .
He is not ready to be neck reined, as you need two hands and legs to correct him when he does not follow through with his entire body in correct aleignment
Thus, to turn left, just indicate direction of turn with that inside left rein, lay outside right rein against his neck, and if he does not turn correctly, do NOT use more rein. Fix the body part that is out with your legs. Shoulders not following nose-bump that outside shoulder with your right leg, slightly ahead of cinch. Ribs hanging into that turn-push those ribs out with inside left leg
As I was once told, "you can't ride a board/


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## Moore Norma (Jul 10, 2017)

Odd question, have you tried mounting from the opposite side? He is expecting you to mount from the left so maybe if you change it off it will be different enough to make him stop and think long enough for you to get on. I can't think of anything else that might work.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Moore Norma said:


> Odd question, have you tried mounting from the opposite side? He is expecting you to mount from the left so maybe if you change it off it will be different enough to make him stop and think long enough for you to get on. I can't think of anything else that might work.


Same result. I tried that just to see what he'd do.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

It is not just trying to compensate for his mounting evasion that is the answer, but rather to fix his basic holes, that come out not just in mounting, but elsewhere< JMO


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Smilie said:


> It is not just trying to compensate for his mounting evasion that is the answer, but rather to fix his basic holes, that come out not just in mounting, but elsewhere< JMO


(Warning: This is so very long, but this horse has a lot of problems. I know this, I'm doing my best to clean up someone, or multiple someone's mess/es.)

Oh, he has a TON of holes. Someone started him on some very solid training... and then... I don't know what happened to him, but then he changed hands at least two other times... this last time, the owners that sold him to the person who bought him for us told him that they always used Trigger as an 11 year old's parade horse... There is no way in He double hockey sticks that horse was ridden in a parade. I suspect each time he's changed hands, the problems were just compounded, resulting in a 'ruined' horse, tbh.

Anyway.... I've not gone completely alone in this - I had a very highly recommended young man work with him all last summer - but the thing is, he was also highly unreliable. Everyone wants to get paid to help, they don't want to show up. Which is what I've found goes on in this area and its frustrating. However, that young man - Trigger has always trusted him. He has a calm demeanor, soft hands, and knows what he's doing. He comes from a long line of horsemen - he was absolutely stunned by Trigger's neck reining and the foundations of his training.

I've also had the old school rodeo and rancher type cowboys tell me he is what he is, he's been abused, sell him and buy a broke-broke horse or be prepared to just get rough with him and wear him down. *Uhm. No. That is not going to work, its actually the WORST approach for this horse*

Selling him to the first person that will buy him seems horribly unfair to Trigger. He's already made a strong 180, and the young man that worked with him last summer was very pleasantly surprised that Trigger has come to trust me and in recent months, not be afraid of strangers and men... or sunglasses.

(I admit, had I known he would be this type of horse when I bought him from our friend who picked him up at an auction in Texas, I would have passed on him in favor of a less problematic quarter horse - but it is what it is. He's mine now, I don't want to just fob him off on the next sucker to come along or someone that will brutalize him)

Also:

I think there's a misunderstanding here on the buddy thing. He has no pasture buddies. Every single horse we have, except the wee filly, hates him. IDK why. They are not friends. He is the outcast and the 'omega' if you want to put it in pack terms. He would have been fed to wolves by now if this was a wild band of horses. He is a submissive and low confidence animal. That's how I got through to him though - guarding him while he eats at feed time and driving the others off when they bullied him, and intervening when Sarge chased him all over the pasture for an entire hour trying to catch him and beat him down. Trigger looked for me, and came to me that day, in desperate need of 'saving' from the pasture bullies. He looks for me, and comes willingly to me every single time I'm outside, and he waits at his gate for me to get home. I'm his buddy. Since then, that alone is a magnificent change in my relationship with this animal. He calls to me if he sees me, he has also started trusting my husband and treats him much the same since one of our dogs was caught terrorizing Trigger and DH ran the dog off, then checked Trigger to see if he'd been bitten (He hadn't).

Now, I keep all horses away from him purposefully (Also the dog moved to my daughter's house to live with her) - Trigger stays alone 99% of the time in a 5 acre turn out with a pond and a nice barn for shelter, with only me to visit with and I'm out there daily.

He had others in the same pasture over the weekend because our BULL Carlos lifted the gate to the cattle pasture off its hinges and tossed it aside.... because he's weird like that... thus opening up the way between the two pastures for himself and his harem of cows and calves, but also the filly and our two oldest horses, Jackie and Superman.

They are all back on their side of the fence. Sarge was around because my potential son-in-law to be was using the round pen the same day.

Honestly, I'm starting to think he's trying me. He has no physical issues, I've eliminated saddling issues, girth issues (I swapped his front girth, a rope type, with a memory foam squishy gel type girth), I've had the farrier keep his feet in very good shape, with regular trimming and/or shoeing (that's another area of progress - he doesn't squirm or fuss when the farrier comes out anymore. He used to be a ****** to shoe, now he's just as calm as our 'bomb proof' teacher horse. His teeth are fine. His back is fine.

He's no dummy though. He may be the smartest horse we have. 

Tying him up and leaving him... I tie him up regularly when I'm working on cleaning the tack room, and he's stood there for hours while I do that. We work on standing still in the round pen. Sometimes he feels the need to fidget, most of the time he stands for me.

I keep him guessing _what we're doing today_: Some days I groom him and give him treats while tied up, fly spray, etc.; some days we just put the saddle on, take the saddle off... put it on, take it off, try out a different saddle pad for giggles, IDK. Anything to keep him guessing and curious. Some days I just stand there, leaning against the pole he's tied to, ignoring him (mostly), singing quietly to my music and cleaning the breast collars, etc, while he sniffs and investigates what I have in my hands - because curiosity is the key to him. He can't STAND to not see what I'm doing.

Some days, I just clean the tack room up, sweep it out, clean out any trash while he's tied up. Some days, he gets OOOOHHH MMAAANNN His OWN tub of sweet feed... Some times I saddle him up and just work on walking him around with and without the reins in my hands - he follows and stops when I do, backs up when I do. I don't even have to give him a verbal cue any more.

Lately he and I have had to talk about empty water bottles and how they aren't going to eat him - same for the walmart bags on a fishing pole. Some days... we just ride in the round pen while I talk to him and good lord, sing to him. Maybe he hates the singing? IDK. But I like to keep him listening to me, not looking for boogers in the bushes.

Sunday - I think he was being stubborn and trying to get me to give up and just unsaddle him - like the hip checks on mounting. It FELT like a battle of wills to me. Like subtle little annoyances to get me to say to heck with it. 

The circles... I did make him go the other direction, don't get me wrong, but he wanted to have little tantrums about it. So obliging him and making him do what he 'wants' until he's sick of it - and then a little bit more - is usually the best way to convince him my way is much easier on him. 

USUALLY it works. 

The mounting is what had me puzzled - I've had horses walk off, I've had them swing away... but never intentionally watch and hip-check me as I lifted my boot and just almost got my boot in the stirrup. But it seems my tenacity and not letting him 'win' by giving up seems to have solved the problem. Also, he seemed surprised when I pushed back to force him to square up when he tried it that first couple of times Sunday. After that, he stopped. 

I am going to try him again this evening and see what he does. I suspect its more of the right-hand circling since the hip-check didn't get him out of being ridden.

Last but not least, I am taking to heart the advice here. I am. But. He already KNOWS neck reining. He already knows leg cues and pressure and release. That's why I don't use a bit on him. I don't think he was ever trained with a bit - bits of any sort, any at all, cause him to rear up and act a complete, confused, fool. The hack was my last ditch effort to find something that worked for him. If he didn't neck rein, no way in hades would I have tried riding him with a hack. USUALLY I don't have to even apply much rein pressure the lightest touch of the rein to his neck and gentle knee and leg pressure along usually gets a swift and lovely response from him, but I have to be careful, just one nudge too many, one click of the tongue too many, and he's ready to GO! That's why its suspected he was either a barrel horse once, or a barrel horse in training.

Someone put a lot of work into him at one time. Then someone destroyed him emotionally. 

I'm just trying to pick up the pieces. Its like working a jigsaw puzzle in the dark with him. You guys are helping me tremendously by handing me pieces - I just have to figure out which ones fit and which ones don't.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, good luck and sounds like you are committed
To me, ahorse that 'neck reins ' very well, but was never properly educated to a bit, are not compatible in any respected training program
The correct training progression for a western horse, is to be started in a snaffle of a bosal, riidng with two hands, while working towards the horse learning to work off the indirect rein, WHILE keeping total body alignment correct. It is not some rush neck reining taught by some Yah Hoos where they will often even hit the horse on the neck rein side,and get him jumping into a turn often with rein hand way out in the direction of the turn,nose tipped in opposite direction
If he truly 'neck reined' , he would guide, staying evenly between your rein hand and your legs. He would have been 'educated' tot he point he was ready to 'graduate' from the snaffle or bosal, and be ridden totally one handed, with a curb being designed for that
Of course, there is the possiblity that his mouth was abused, that he learned to run through a bit, so was switched to a Mechanical Hackamore, for control
I would make sure that he had no mouth issues, like a cut tongue , bruised bars, ect, and then try going right back to basics, and gradually bit him with a snaffle.
While I believe that any well trained horse should ride bittless, I also believe the reverse is true, unless, of course past abuse of that mouth or a mouth issue precludes it.
Many people think that ahorse should pick up riding with a bit, just like he easliy does, riding bittless in some direct action device.This is not so, as riding bittless, you use the same pressure points the horse has learned to respond to, since he was halter broke. He has to be taught, through a correct gradual process, to respond to those new pressure points in his mouth. If this is not done, then the horse is declared to 'hate bits'
Even if he is the low man on the totem pole, does not mean he won't still focus/want to be with those other hroses.If you do have another horse close by, when working with him, nEVER allow the horse to have his attention drift to his buddy. If his attention is there, it is not on you
Far as dogs, I never let any of the dogs we had over the years, ever chase horses. The current dog we have, was a rescue, who was never exposed to horses.
When I first brought him home and the horses came up, he wanted to chase them. I thus kept him on a lease, did chores that way
Once he got used to horses, he wanted to 'play with them, to the point of almost getting me bucked off on a colt , by leaping at his face while I was loping him. He soon learned, 'out' when I was working a colt in the outside arena, and then learned to go trail riding with me, now perfectly respecting horses, and I can trust him to not ever chase a horse, even when I am not home
This is so very important if you have both dogs and horses!
No, you do not use tough techniques on a horse like this, but you use balance and set clear and firm boundaries
There is a time to make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard, but it has to be clear , and fit the action, so the horse has a clear association to what is being corrected
Thus, providing he has no physical problem turning left, the way I would make the wrong choice of turning right the difficult choice, would be to get after him with my right leg, and make him turn left, in an 'ask, tell, demand'
It was his choice that I had to go to demand. Next time, I give him a choice to respond tot hat light ask, thus making the right thing easy


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Physically, he has absolutely no mouth issues. We eliminated that first. I will probably never put a bit in his mouth again. There's no need for it, IMO, and it makes the problem exponentially worse with this particular horse.


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## falling (Apr 13, 2014)

Didn't read all the replies but just wanted to say I agree with everyone saying trick training. I've had A LOT of success with it. My gelding now literally lines himself up perfectly no matter where I am standing, which is super handy when out riding anywhere. I'm short, he's tall, so it has made my life a lot easier. Had the same experience with two other green horses. I use one treat initially after they have lined themselves up, and then another once I am onboard and they are standing and waiting for a cue to move forwards. Doesn't take very long for them to click, especially if they are food orientated. 

I also agree that you should be practicing mounting even on days that you are not planning to actually ride. Think of it as ground work because really that is what it is.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Oh, he's food oriented. More like 'snack' oriented. Common greeting now is: Wassup, snackhead!?

For treats, he'll do all sorts of things on the ground for me.

I'm going to start using them under saddle too... and yes, practicing the mounting - not just for both our sakes, but for the other three we ride regularly, two of which are fairly tall, even for me, and I'm 5'9".

IF he wasn't so.. I don't know. Damaged but willing to try, willing to learn, I may have given up on him. Honestly, the week of the day he made his 180 on trusting me, I was looking to go ahead and sell him, because he wouldn't let anyone get near him. Not for love nor money nor sweet feed.

Except his rearing (which he's now quit and was a result of any kind of bit in his mouth) he's never ever done anything aggressive. He's never pawed, never kicked, never bucked. He's bolted once and our blue heeler pup was still in his Can't Not Nip Everyone's Heels stage. 

I lie, he's pawed once, but I don't think he was aiming for me, I was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, talking to my dad, making him stand and wait while I was on the ground at my dad's house, holding a rein. An immediate stern HEY! NO SIR! and that was the end of it. He's never done it again.

Anyway. He's damaged. I'm unraveling someone else's mess, and I'm going on intuition and trying different approaches to see what works best for him (Which may or may not work for other horses, but if they work on him, good). I've gotten some sound advice, and a lot of advice that may be sound for more stable horses, but that I don't feel will help him, but the advice is still appreciated.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Re the original mounting issue/hip checking you and the way you mount... have you tried using his mane and the horn rather than grabbing the cantle as you raise up/swing over? Sometimes, when you grab the rear of the saddle and pull to mount, the saddle turns a bit and the bars are torqued into the wither. If you use the mane and horn, yes, there might be some pull at the shoulder/wither, but you aren't turning the saddle.

Just my thoughts....that he might be anticipating that pull, so turns into it.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I"m not much for using food rewards, and am not about to pack treats along on trail rides.
My horse stand by whatever I ask them to, as they are trained to do so. While I am not short, I have double knee replacements, thus all my horses stand by whatever I ask them to, be it a stump or just plain ground advantage.
Yes, horses are strongly food motivated, along with a flight ,response, and a reproductive drive, for sexually intact animals
I want my horses to work for me, out of respect and trust, and not for food.
Just my thoughts, although I don't negative the correct use of food rewards in a horse with a past abuse history


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

If you ride in rough country, then I think you should always find something to serve as a mounting block. Lots of trees, then there are trees that have fallen over, or stumps. Hills, well, you sure can find ground advantage.
Rocks are also often present in rough country. 
If riding on a beach or desert, I can see where it might be hard to find something to serve as a mounting block, but not country with varied terrain and also trees, JMO


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

The food rewards are... for now.

I started with a LOT of rewards/snacks for simply coming to me AND letting me touch him. While quietly talking to him and then for 'let me look' when he held still for me to check his feet or a scabby spot, etc - I repeat calmly 'Let me look." each and every time. When he's standing in front of me, all I have to do is tell him to back up and start walking forward, and he backs up. I can back up myself, ask him to come to me while patting a flat hand on my belly (No idea why I do that) and he comes to me. All because I gave him snacks starting out. 

Once he started letting me handle him freely, I backed off/weaned him off the treats for that, and used them for things like putting his halter on him without a lot of fussing and head tossing, draping a rope over his neck, etc. He still gets some of those, not as many now and I'll keep cutting them back.

Now the treats are for being still while I saddle him, for not fighting me to put the headstall on him, for not moving when I mount, like the other day - when he quit being a turd and behaved himself, he got a snack for holding still. These too will be weaned back eventually.

I still maintain the high levels of praise and physical affection, scratches, touching, simple quiet companionship, etc. I want him to associate me with the reward of my company, as his boss 'mare', not the reward of the snacks in my pocket. So eventually, there won't be a lot of the reward type snacks.

So far, its had fantastic results with him, I see no reason to not reward him. The peppermint treats are for 'work' only, that's the only time I get them out. The apples, watermelon, nectarines, peaches, strawberries, and the occasional slice of cheddar cheese are for Just Because whenever they're available. It keeps him looking forward to seeing me turn up at random times with random things in my hands - like half a watermelon.

None of our other horses get snacks like this. Mainly because... they aren't troubled horses. Their problems are few and far between. They're typical quarter horses. Trigger is the wild card of the lot and this works_ for him_.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I'm not here to but heads with anyone, but I will second or third the treats. I have mentioned it in other threads, not sure if I have here. But it's worked miracles with any horse I've owned, to the point that everyone in the neighborhood has started doing it.

I guess some people don't want to feed treats on principle. Me, I just want what is simple, pleasant for me and the horse and works. It's so easy. Just get on any which way you can. Make sure the horse has been brought to a stop if he's trying to walk off. Tap him on the neck (I use that as a cue) and then hand him a treat from your position in the saddle. After a few times of that they really catch on and soon stand like a statue to be mounted anywhere. From a log, in a ditch, next to a fence, where ever. 

Before I started doing that I had horses that would try to walk off when I mounted I (I even had a wreck that way), swing their hips out when you park them next to a fence to get on bareback, etc. I wish I knew 20 years ago what I know now because it so pleasant for both of us. 

I carry horse cookies or carrots either in my horn bags or a small pouch snapped on to the font of my saddle. They take up hardly any room. If run out or forget them that day, just mount up like normal and tell them you are sorry you forgot. I haven't had one throw a cookie tantrum yet. :wink:

Maybe I am a lazy, cruddy horse trainer. But this is so easy and makes them stand perfectly to be mounted every time, next to any object. I don't know why anyone would want to do things the hard way when things could be done the easy way and the horse is happier and wanting to work with you instead of against you.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

I admit that I haven't read the thread in full detail but skimmed through most of it. 

It sounds like you have come a long way with him. But he simply still has lots of holes. 

Personally, I would not be riding a horse that freaks out from a water bottle. Maybe I'm more cautious than I was when I was younger, but I need the thinking side of their brain to work. Nothing wrong with them getting spooked (because they are horses and they will) but there is when they are using the "freak out" side of their brain.

Not to mention his total lack of respect. My horses would see the wrath of God if they decided to hip check me and knock me off balance. Seriously. I know you've gone into great detail about his past. I do believe a horse's history is important -- but on the same token, they need to respect me and my bubble. Period. You do what you need to do to let him know that he is NEVER to do that again.

Sounds like in general he just needs more control on his ground work so that you can have better control of his feet. When doing ground work, I do like to carry a whip simply so I have an extension of my arm. I know you said Trigger doesn't like whips but that should be something to work toward... because what if someone walks by him someday carrying something that looks like one? Again, a horse's history is important but that doesn't mean he can learn to accept it. 

Teach him to move his hips and shoulders when and where you say. It takes lots of repetition and time. 

I too am not much of a food reward person for my horses. I'm more of the "I'm going to annoy you until you do as I have asked you, and then I will leave you alone". 

So if I am asking for a horse to yield the hindquarters on the ground, I will start by "glaring" at their hip with my body language. If I do not get a response in 2 seconds, then I will raise my arm/whip in the arm (in the hindquarters direction). If again no response in 2 seconds I will start tapping their hip slowly. As time goes by and I still have no resonse, I will tap harder and harder. I do not stop tapping (annoying) them until they move where I am wanting the hips to go. The instant they do so, I stop. 

Rinse and repeat. In the beginning, I will release if they only give me 1 step. That's okay; they are trying. But as they get consistent and learn what I want, I will expect more than 1 step before I stop asking. 

If you prefer treats, you can modify it as you see fit. I personally just don't see a need for treats. 

And you can do the same for moving the shoulders, and ribcage. 

Just get control of your horse's body. Right now, you don't have control of his body so that's why he's being squirrly to mount and walking off when you do. He should be waiting for your instruction on what to do. 



AtokaGhosthorse said:


> I've been eliminating everything that could be causing him physical discomfort when riding just to rule that out too btw. I don't use a bit


I know you mentioned you are indeed somewhat new to horses and I do think you are doing a very good job, but that is a hell of a strong hackamore you are using on him. That loooong shank has a ton of leverage. And I think I read somewhere in the thread that he doesn't neck rein very well yet? That type of hackamore is not a good choice for direct reining a horse. Because of it's design, it sends very confusing signals with a direct rein because it does interfere with the other side and does not send a clear signal to the horse. 

If you would like to stay bitless, consider something else like a sidepull or a Little S Hack, rather than the large mechanical hackamore.

But it's also not going to "hurt" him to teach him to accept and go in a bit.

I'm sure he does stop better in that hackamore than a bit ... because that is a huge shank on that hackamore.



AtokaGhosthorse said:


> I've switched to a lighter, better fitting barrel saddle rather than the heavy roping saddles since he's built real light


Not the best photo you attached, but that saddle is sitting downhill and thus will put some pressure on the front. "Squishy" pads in my mind do nothing. The pressure points on the saddle are just going to squish them down. You are better off using a nice quality wool saddle pad.

I'd keep the back cinch on him. That shouldn't bother him.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Smilie said:


> If you ride in rough country, then I think you should always find something to serve as a mounting block. Lots of trees, then there are trees that have fallen over, or stumps. Hills, well, you sure can find ground advantage.
> Rocks are also often present in rough country.
> If riding on a beach or desert, I can see where it might be hard to find something to serve as a mounting block, but not country with varied terrain and also trees, JMO


But... why? I've had a horse fall completely down in rough timber and cedars, a log hidden in the leaves rolled under his lead foot and then it looked like Bambi on ice, so I shook my foot out of the right stirrup, the two of us almost recovered, then nope. Leroy went down like a massive sack of potatoes... But he didn't smash me on the right side since I got my leg over in time.

We walked it off a little, and I mounted right back up in rough country.

Why look for a mounting block if you have no problem mounting from the ground? Also, rocks, tree stumps and logs for mounting blocks can get you snake bit here. Copperheads just LOVE those sort of things and ****-tails (Rattlers) love rocks...


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

beau159 said:


> I admit that I haven't read the thread in full detail but skimmed through most of it.
> 
> It sounds like you have come a long way with him. But he simply still has lots of holes.
> 
> ...


LOL he was standing in a hole that's been dug out by him... and other horses. He wasn't on level ground. Its hard to see in the picture, but that dirt... is lower than the grass level. I gave up filling it in a few months ago.

And he does neck rein well. I rarely have to do anything with the hack. I have that style because one other horse we have has been ridden in that style hack all 20 years of her life. So its not even his, it is for the other horse. A little S with a leather nose band is what he's going to get. These were trials to see if he'd even do okay with a hack. I'm not a fan of that one, its just what I had on hand.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Why look for a mounting block if you have no problem mounting from the ground? Also, rocks, tree stumps and logs for mounting blocks can get you snake bit here. Copperheads just LOVE those sort of things and ****-tails (Rattlers) love rocks...


Mounting from a block (or tree stump, rock, log, etc) is said to be easier on the horse because you are not swinging your weight up as high. But if you can do it without a problem, I don't think anyone will tell you that is wrong. That is the correct way to do it.

Me, I'm short and fat and one of my horses is 16 hands. I don't even try to mount from the ground anymore. But that's just me and obviously being able to mount from the ground is a good thing and I have a bit of a handicap with my height and weight. So for me, it's very important for the horse to stand exactly where I put him or he will be out of position in relation to my "mounting block" if he walks off or swings his hips.

So I guess it all depends on where you live. In Arizona I mount from all of that sort of stuff......logs, stumps, ruts in the trail, rocks, etc. Haven't been snake bit yet (knock on wood!).


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> LOL he was standing in a hole that's been dug out by him... and other horses. He wasn't on level ground. Its hard to see in the picture, but that dirt... is lower than the grass level. I gave up filling it in a few months ago.


Yes, I understand that but the saddle is _still _sitting downhill regardless in that picture, and also the picture where he is not in a hole. You can easily see the back of the saddle is elevated. 

Now it's not an awful fit by any means, but even adding a shim may help to level it out, so long as the bar angle is appropriate.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The idea that anything bittless, including a 'severe mechanical HACKAOMORE is more kind, proves a horse does not need a bit , is completely wrong thinking
Some mechanical hackamores are extremely severe, and are also not anything any trainer worth his salt , uses as they offer zero finesse, and work totally on control, using very sensitive pressure points, covered with not much more then skin
If you need one of those to ride your horse, he is not broke!
I agree on forgetting his past, and deal with the horse you now have-one that lacks respect, might appear to 'love; you because of those treats, but that is an illusion.
Get that horse to have a connection with you, not food based, acting like a human vending machine, and base that connection on respect and trust


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Update: 

I've since this thread, had him do this once or twice more. Each time I just put my palm on his hip and the saddle, and shoved right back, and hard enough he has to square up or fall over.

He tried it once yesterday, I didn't let him even get the motion completed before I was pushing back.

He stopped immediately. I went to put my foot in the stirrup, he tried to move away... So we did circles.

Paused, tried to put my foot in the stirrup, he moved away one more time, so one more round of circles.

I need to mention it was 96 yesterday with an 89% humidity - and I intentionally chose to do this during the heat of the day.

He didn't have a lot of fight in him... He behaved himself after he got put to work for bad behavior or pushed back.

About the whip discussion... We had a friend over who is specializing in college in equine rehabilitation. She brought her lunging whip and a 'pig flag' with her. (looks like a bicycle flag, but used for show pigs). He had some issues with the whip, but began to calm very quickly. He does flinch away if you lay it on his left shoulder or try to even walk with it on his right side.

Spent quite a it of time working with him until he finally relaxed around it.

We've spent time working ropes/lariats around him, he will now go to sleep around them. He's had desensitizing 'class' for about two hours a day, every day of the week for the past week and even more progress has been made. Our friend and cousin's daughter (also working with a vet to learn horse rehab) are both astounded, and went so far as to say if he was the horse he was last year, they'd have never felt it was safe to work with him like this, simply because of his flight/panic issues. We've started having 'men' around while we're doing this and he was immediately tensing up, but has started not caring about them either.

Tuesday night, while holding his lead and standing outside the round pen while my future son in law worked on his own horse, my son's cat jumped on my back... while I was standing straight up. Sank all 28 claws in my back... while I was holding Trigger's lead. Despite the holleration and issues, Trigger's head snapped up, his eyes got huge, he gave me a nervous head jiggle, but overall didn't budge. His feet never moved, and he was only three feet away, if that. I think he was just... OMG LADY! HEYYY LADY!? THERE IS A CAT HANGING ON YOUR BACK! DID YOU KNOW THAT!?

Painful though it was, it speaks volumes as to how far he's come.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Those darn cats!
I had even a more interesting experience once, riding a young horse at an indoor arena. That arena had a cat walk (for people ) , along one side.
A cat, using that walk (why not, due to the name, LOL! ), decided my young horse was a great stepping stone to the ground, as I rode by!


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Yeahhh. Tiger loves to walk the top rails of the pen when we're out there using it... I've even seen him sleep on the lower ones in the shade, not unlike a squirrel on a tree branch. I really think he expected to climb my back and jump from my shoulder to the top rail, but the hopping around and hollering I did ruined his plan.

We may need to consider sacking Trigger out for Kittehs. All four of our cats are always out there when we are... and also our two dogs.

Also the big red dog that was harassing horses and heifers alike found a new home. We have our silly sweet aussie shepherd, Beaux, and the blue heeler/border collie, Cleo now.

Both have learned NO means NO around the horses, ski'emcow! means GET THAT COW! And also, Beaux and the horses get along great... I've seen him out in the shade, sleeping while they graze right next to him. How he's not been stepped on, IDK. They also sniff noses a lot, and in a friendly fashion, so... that's a less stressful situation for everyone.

And now... to sort out Trigger's next hard headed problem... he doesn't want to turn left. He's not stiff, there's no medical reason, he's just stubborn in his own sneaky way. He's still trying to 'thwart' me, and in addition to the abuse, its likely someone had him and just let him do what he wanted because they were scared of him.

Every time I ride him, I'm less scared and more firm, more understanding what makes him tick, and have a better seat - his days of being a willful jerk are numbered.

I just about have his number.

Note: He was doing the thwarting stuff right from the get go, so he came to us with this, its not something we've taught him, but I would say we've let him get away with it more than we should. Those days are over. There's other ways of getting him 'ironed out' than bulldogging or cowboying him out. We've just had to change our way of thinking for this horse.


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