# FRIENDLY Debate. Inbreeding vs. Line Breeding



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Before I post my opinion and beliefs on the subject, I would just kinda like to hear some other opinions on the differences or similarities that you see between a line bred horse and an inbred horse. Also share what you believe the definition of each to be. 

And lets remember to keep this friendly, I am not wanting to start a fight.


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## strawboss (Apr 29, 2009)

ok,
line breeding is inbreeding. just not as close .sometimes breeding cousins will give worse results than brother and sister. in order to keep traits that are desirable, inbreeding and then line breeding are used. you create a family. by line breeding within that family you lock up traits that you want. by strict culling and keeping only the off spring that show what you want you develop type. then by out crossing to a family that has the things you want, you get hybrid vigor and bigger, stronger, individuals.
you will lose size and create problems by inbreeding close and often. line breeding is family breeding and won't break down as quickly. both will go south in a hurry, if you don't cull. don't start with animals that have bad traits. only use animals that have good traits. by line breeding you can keep traits you want over a long period of time. over time outside blood(genes) will need to be added to a family to keep it from getting too weak. an out cross will be the end product and will not produce as good as itself.
with horses, i think grandparents to grand kids is the best way to go. that's up to the breeder to say for themselves. it's always been that the quality of a breeders animals are directly related to his/her harshness in culling.
close inbreeding will show traits within a line that are there but unseen. recessives. they can be eliminated by line breeding those individuals who don't have them. genes are many times tied together and hard to separate. a family breeding program should be a long term process and only the best animals used. if you see things going bad. change something in the formula.
there is a book called how to breed dogs. i think that's right. by a vet whose name i can't recall. it is a treasure trove of info on the subject.


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

Linebreeding:

A extremely well thought out, careful decision made by advanced, well informed breeders. Linebreeding should *only* be done with the absolute best of the best, and even then only after some extremely careful consideration.



Inbreeding:

Oops! My mare accidently ended up with her ungelded brother/dad/uncle/cousin. AWWW DA BBY GUNNA BE SU COOT! COOT BBY!



I was browsing the website of an Straight Egyptian Arabian breeder. They had one linebred (full sister to full brother) horse. I forget if it was a mare or stallion, but wow. Talk about flawless.


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

Here is a very good article that really explains the purpose of linebreeding

Inbreeding Linebreeding and Outcrossing

The pedigree of the arabian mare that I had would be a good example
of linebreeding on the sires side.

the dams side was not as close but does contain lines that are linked to her sires side.

Since I don't own this mare anymore, I don't think I should post her pedigree.


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## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

Not a very well kept secret , but thoroughbred breeding in the UK has got to a point where thousands of foals are born every year with genetic faults . 
The jockey club and wetherbys stud book are so set in their ways that they do not allow any new blood - even if it was carefully managed . 
Sadly racehorse breeding is all about money and has very little to do with horses or horse welfare.


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## Shawneen (Apr 22, 2009)

strawboss gave a great explanation!

the way it was explained to me in a funny way: if it works it's line breeding, if it doesn't it's inbreeding LOL

This is very common in bucking stock(cattle). It is rare, but sometimes you will see a daughter bred back to the father. Normally they will let it go a generation or 2 to dilute it a bit then bring it back. It is how they try to keep a "pure" line going. I am not sure how different bucking stock and horses are in terms of line breeding, but I don't think it effects cattle very much in terms of deformities, etc.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

To me, its not a matter of linebreeding=acceptable/good, inbreeding=unacceptable/bad-- Both can work, or either can be a disaster-- depending on the stock chosen, the skill of the breeder, and sometimes plain old luck. 

I would call any mating between half or full siblings or sire/daughter mother/son inbreeding. Cousin to cousin, uncle to niece or aunt to nephew, grandget back to grandparent would be close linebreeding, while horses sharing more distant relatives crossed together is also linebreeding, but not as close.

_>>>>> I was browsing the website of an Straight Egyptian Arabian breeder. They had one linebred (full sister to full brother) horse. I forget if it was a mare or stallion, but wow. Talk about flawless. _

See, to me, full sister/brother *IS* definitely inbreeding. In this case, sounds like it was successful inbreeding.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Shawneen said:


> the way it was explained to me in a funny way: if it works it's line breeding, if it doesn't it's inbreeding LOL


Realistically, I think that's the best "simple" explanation I've ever heard. I'm not sure myself where I really stand on the whole issue. I would personally say that it's blatantly obvious we're breeding much weaker animals with much worse genetic defects, not just horses but all animals, so in my opinion, whatever we think we've done obviously didn't work. But that's just my opinion.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

It's inbreeding when it doesn't work out well, lol.

Seriously though, inbreeding IMO is when a horse has the same sire or dam 2 or more time within 3 generations, or 5 or more times within 4 generation. 

Linebreeding is when you have two similarly bred horses top and bottom, like two halter horses that both go back to Skipper W once or twice through different sons/daughters of Skipper W.

Example:

Inbred horse (I owned this one, never bred her): Dark Dancer Paint
She goes back to Skipper W 11 times in 7 generations. OUCH!

Another inbred horse, same kind of lines:
Skips Ego Improver
Has TWELVE (12) crosses to Skipper W in 7 generations 
Has THIRTY (30) crosses to Nick (24 through Skipper W and 6 more from others)

He was bred to this mare:
Shawnee Sandy Quarter Horse
Has three (s) Crosses to Skipper W in 5 generations
Has THIRTEEN (13) crosses to Nick in 7 generations (6 from Skipper W, 7 from others)

So the resulting filly/mare has SEVENTEEN (17) crosses to Skipper W in 8 generations and FOURTY-THREE (43) crosses to Nick... Whoa. This mare only has 4 unrelated lines/horses out of 16 (at the great-great line)... Both of her parents were heavily related. That means 12 of her great-great relatives were very closely related. Scary indeed. It would make a great Springer show, lol.

The first mare listed has a Sire that IMO is line bred:
Skipa Sonny Paint
He has Skipper W once on top and three times on the bottom, far enough back to not be inbred IMO. There are also some related lines to Skipper W, though pretty far back.


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## Skyhuntress (Sep 9, 2008)

luvs2ride1979 said:


> It's inbreeding when it doesn't work out well, lol.


So true  basically though, linebreeding IS inbreeding. Just done with a plan  

Linebreeding is frequently seen in horses; particularily quarter horses, thoroughbreds and warmbloods. the reasoning is that if you know you have a superior sire, why not up the ante on the resulting foal being as superior? Careful and selective linebreeding has produced some of the absolute best horses in the world, both english and western disiplines. 

For example, my http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/costa6 4 year old Costa is linebred to Cor de la Bryere, you can see that he's his great grandsire on both sides of his pedigree. It was done deliberately by his breeder because she wanted to be able to up the chances that he would be a fantastic jumper and inherit more of the qualities that Cord tended to pass along to his C-line offspring. 


But that being said, I don't think you'll see it as frequently as you once did; there's so much genetic diversity available thanks to AI that you can find a comparable stallion that doesn't share the same bloodlines


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## Shawneen (Apr 22, 2009)

Question,
In the wild will a stallion breed his own daughter? Or do they know that they shouldn't - some instinct that tells them that if they do, it will run the risk of having problems???

Just thought of that.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Well, I think everyone explained it all good enough!

I bought two mares two years ago that are line and/or inbred.
This is their pedigree's. What do you think?

K Mastered It Arabian

Masterpeices Tradition Arabian


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

this mare is linebred right? and barely. sorry I am completely clueless on this subject!

Ginisee Horse Pedigree


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

eventerdrew said:


> this mare is linebred right? and barely. sorry I am completely clueless on this subject!
> 
> Ginisee Horse Pedigree


Yup, she is. That's good line breeding.


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## Joshie (Aug 26, 2008)

Shawneen said:


> Question,
> In the wild will a stallion breed his own daughter? Or do they know that they shouldn't - some instinct that tells them that if they do, it will run the risk of having problems???


A stallion will breed anything it can. In the wild, herds of many types of animals are comprised of one male and his harem. Many times, males are kicked out of the herd as they reach sexual maturity.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

WSArabians said:


> K Mastered It Arabian
> 
> Masterpeices Tradition Arabian


This one is a bit close for comfort for me. Her dam (for both horses) is also her grand-dam... The grandsire on top is totally different in breeding, so that might be enough genetic diversity, but ??? Soldat is Polish mixed with Old English and Crabet. The common dam, Keoma, is mostly Polish with some Kellogg.

How is her temperament? Health? Is she sensitive or "hyper" at any time? (like in a new environment or show) If she's healthy and relatively sane, then that's fine, but I certainly would be VERY careful should you decide to breed either mare. Print out her dam's 5-generation pedigree and be sure that the stud you chose does NOT share any of those lines.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

ok. Thanks WSArabians!


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

eventerdrew said:


> this mare is linebred right? and barely. sorry I am completely clueless on this subject!
> 
> Ginisee Horse Pedigree


99.9% of American bred thoroughbreds are linebred. Other countries TB industry people call our Thoroughbreds "The Inbreds" lol.

Both sire and dam share the Cornish Prince line. The dam is linebred Nasrullah and Nearco. The sire is pretty diverse, only sharing one line in 5 generations, the US stallion Discovery. He also has one cross to Nasrullah. Cornish Prince himself was relatively diverse, only sharing one line top and bottom, the British stallion Pharos in the 4th generation, and one line top and bottom of the Irishi stallion The Tetrarch.

So, as far as US Thoroughbreds go, your mare isn't too bad in the linebreeding catagory! If you decide to breed her to a TB stallion, I would pay for a membership on the pedigree query web site and carefully chose your stud so you don't have too many similar bloodlines.


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## Shawneen (Apr 22, 2009)

WSArabians said:


> Well, I think everyone explained it all good enough!
> 
> I bought two mares two years ago that are line and/or inbred.
> This is their pedigree's. What do you think?
> ...


 
I would say those are inbred - but it was successful so it is line bred LOL
They bred the Stud back to his dam - kind of creepy if you think about it in human terms LOL It's been going on forever though.

I need to learn to scroll down a finish reading a page before I answer - sorry! hahaha


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

OK, so this is very interesting to me, that we are all understanding various different limits, parameters and definitions on what is or isn't linebreeding vs. inbreeding.... so I did some Googling to see if there was an "industry standard definition", and if so, what it is, of both terms.

Some very good links-- 

Inbreeding and Linebreeding
Dog breeding site, but a interesting variety of examples discussed, including laboratory mouse popuations, and etc-- Includes a table calculating "inbreeding coefficient"...quotes include:
_"In genetic terminology, inbreeding is the breeding of two animals who are related to each other. In its opposite, outcrossing, the two parents are totally unrelated._ _Since all pure breeds of animal trace back to a relatively limited number of foundation dogs, all pure breeding is by this definition inbreeding, although the term is not generally used to refer to matings where a common ancestor does not occur behind sire and dam in a four or five generation pedigree."_
_"Breeders of purebred livestock have introduced a term, linebreeding, to cover the milder forms of inbreeding. Exactly what the difference is between linebreeding and inbreeding tends to be defined differently for each species and often for each breed within the species. On this definition, inbreeding at its most restrictive applies to what would be considered unquestioned incest in human beings - parent to offspring or a mating between full siblings. Uncle-niece, aunt-nephew, half sibling matings, and first cousin matings are called inbreeding by some people and linebreeding by others."_

The above site led me to search "inbreeding coefficient", which got me this site: Coefficient of Inbreeding - Wright's Equation and Hardiman's Method
This site give examples of calculating inbreeding coefficient based on two different geneticist's models, using various early Thoroughbred pedigrees.

G2911 Inbreeding: Its Meaning, Uses and Effects on Farm Animals | University of Missouri Extension
Simpler definition from the University of Missouri Extension-- also a useful table with %'s for various matings. Quotes include:
_"Technically, inbreeding is defined as the mating of animals more closely related than the average relationship within the breed or population concerned. Matings between animals less closely related than this, then, would constitute outbreeding."_

Linebreeding Vs. Inbreeding
Donkey breeding site-- interesting pedigree examples and discussion. Quotes include: 
_"So, where does linebreeding end and inbreeding begin? It all has to do with the concentration of bloodlines you are using. By tradition, breeders have considered distantly related crosses to be Linebred while close-up crosses were Inbred. _
_Inbreeding is a technique where animals that are closely related are bred back to each other. These include father-daughter pairs, mother-son combinations, or even brother-sister. Inbreeding in the strictest scientific definition also means all crosses that are duplicated on both sides of a pedigree (sire and dam)." _

So, I am still not sure that there is any one standard or scientific definition....my conclusion is leaning towards thinking that if its between animals related on both the top and bottom of their pedigrees (this would include most purebred populations of animals) that its all inbreeding-- and along the way people have assigned terms like "linebreeding" and "closebreeding" to more distant inbreeding that they are more comfortable with or see as less of a risk..... and thats why the degree of inbreeding considered linebreeding varies depending on the species, breed or popuation being referred to, and/or depends on the person doing the explaining or defining.


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## weefoal (Apr 4, 2009)

Last year was the first year I felt comfortable enough to line breed a foal. I did tons of research and consulted with the breeder of the stallion and the mare that I was crossing. It worked out wonderfully and I got just what I had hoped for. Her name is Baxters Gossip Girl










I have mentors/friends that have done it (line breeding and inbreeding) so beautifully and I really admire them. 

If you want to set a "look" or "type" you have to line and/or inbreed to get that. 

The goal is to stamp in the look without stamping in faults so you have to be so picky about how you do it. 

I have seen the absolute best come out of inbreeding and the worst. The best ones seem to be the breeders that really know their stuff and only in breed periodically. The bad ones seem to be the newer breeders who dont have a clue what they are doing and want to breed father/daughter because they dont want to pay a stud fee for an outside breeding


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Shawneen said:


> the way it was explained to me in a funny way: if it works it's line breeding, if it doesn't it's inbreeding LOL


That is the way that I have always heard it too. Regardless of the quality of horses that are bred, if the foal is good then it is line breeding and if the foal is bad, it is inbreeding.

I can understand wanting to accentuate a certain trait but I don't agree that line breeding is the only way to do it. My personal belief is that in the long run, line breeding weakens the breed. I believe that is why we have so many health issues and conformational deformities in modern horses. I know that alot of people do it but I just don't agree with it. It is possible to find 2 unrelated horses that each carry the aspects that you want in a foal. It takes a lot more work but is better in the long run, IMHO.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

smrobs said:


> That is the way that I have always heard it too. Regardless of the quality of horses that are bred, if the foal is good then it is line breeding and if the foal is bad, it is inbreeding.
> 
> I can understand wanting to accentuate a certain trait but I don't agree that line breeding is the only way to do it. My personal belief is that in the long run, line breeding weakens the breed. I believe that is why we have so many health issues and conformational deformities in modern horses. I know that alot of people do it but I just don't agree with it. It is possible to find 2 unrelated horses that each carry the aspects that you want in a foal. It takes a lot more work but is better in the long run, IMHO.


Agreed. I'm honestly just not impressed by current day "champions". They're only champions of their time, champions of the same weakly bred horses they're competeing against. The fact that we've reached the point where in many breeds like QH and Arabs, the "halter" animals aren't fit to be ridden is just outrageous to me. The animals winning halter should be the animals winning sporting competitions, to define the best of the breed. Instead, we breed weak animals, somehow judge them as being "the best of the best" and nobody seems to question it.

But again, I'm not a show person. I want tough, agile and sporty animals who can hold up for long trail rides and somewhat high stress events such as endurance, barrel racing and jumping. My Arab mare came out decent, but again, all her crazed Arab inbreeding happened many many generations back (Crabbet lines) so maybe she got lucky?

Crossbreeds time and time again prove themselves to be hardier and healthier and yet we continually ignore it for this drive for "purebreds". My roommate has a pasture full of the "muttiest" horses you can imagine - a Quarab, a Mustang/Appaloosa, a questionable QH/TB (we're positive she's closer to half Arab) and a Mustang/Appaloosa/Welsh pony. They're sturdy, strong animals who never have lameness issues aside from typical bumps and scratches horses get, and have held up for over 10 years of hard riding down the trails, and any new discipline we get into our heads to try. She bred all of her "mutt" mares to a Welsh pony stud they owned, and all the foals came out with quite nice conformation, and two (Quarab/Welsh and TB/QH/Welsh) sold as 3 year old greenbrokes to children for quite decent prices due to their amazing temperments and trainability. The TB/QH/Welsh gelding was doing Pony Club at 4 years old with his little 12 year old rider, a rider who was scared of horses when she got him.

LOL, anyway, I guess I sort of diverted away from the original topic, but virtually every single purebred contains a goodly amount of inbreeding/linebreeding, whatever you want to call it, at some point in the generations. And I just think it really shows with the amount of breakdowns and injuries we see.

But that's just one opinion! I've just been on both sides of the board and I'm more and more impressed by crossbreds everyday, as I believe the inbreeding factor is something we really need to start paying attention to and trying to avoid.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>>Crossbreeds time and time again prove themselves to be hardier and healthier and yet we continually ignore it for this drive for "purebreds"._

_>>>>> I can understand wanting to accentuate a certain trait but I don't agree that line breeding is the only way to do it. My personal belief is that in the long run, line breeding weakens the breed. I believe that is why we have so many health issues and conformational deformities in modern horses. I know that alot of people do it but I just don't agree with it. It is possible to find 2 unrelated horses that each carry the aspects that you want in a foal. It takes a lot more work but is better in the long run, IMHO._

_>>>>> Agreed. I'm honestly just not impressed by current day "champions". They're only champions of their time, champions of the same weakly bred horses they're competeing against. The fact that we've reached the point where in many breeds like QH and Arabs, the "halter" animals aren't fit to be ridden is just outrageous to me._

I agree that there are outstanding crossbreds, I also agree that there can be issues with selecting for a certain trait through linebreeding or inbreeding. However, I think it depends on what is being selected for. Some of the "unridable" modern halter horses of the breeds mentioned (I say some, because not all winning halter horses are unridable) are not the way they are because of inbreeding specfically-- they are that way because of how inbreeding, a tool, was used to set whichever traits the people using it selected for. 

Those Welshies you mentioned are a closed book breed and there is some notable inbreeding in several Welsh lines, however these ponies were bred for performance and hardiness, so the inbreeding selection has not made a weak breed overall. Thoroughbred race horses of 200 years ago were inbred, but they were selected for racing over four mile courses in multiple heats rather than a one time blazing one mile run, and they were not traditionally run at 2 like they are today, so they were selected for more durability and less emphasis on early speed. 

There are some very isolated populations of mustangs (not to mention Przewalski's horses) and they are inbred-- but nature selected for the traits that would survive and breed on, so they strongly reproduce hardiness and suitability for their envornment-- anything weak or defective was culled by nature. Horses inbred in this way have a balance of traits that are selected by nature, because thats what it takes to survive. 

In contrast, sometimes people select for a narrower set of traits to the exclusion of other traits, and do not cull rigidly, and sometimes even select FOR a defect or weakness because of fad breeding and/or "appearance". It is not the inbreeding at fault-- it is the way it is being used.


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## StarFeesh (Apr 27, 2009)

I'm still a bit confused as to when it changes from inbreeding to linebreeding. Like, I understand that it's all technically inbreeding, but at what point is it considered linebreeding? Here's a link to the TB I recently purchased's pedigree. That would be linebreeding, right? 

Free 5-Cross Thoroughbred Pedigrees from equineline.com - Thoroughbred Pedigree now with Free Interactive Nicking


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

Here is an interesting article about an inbred horse: A nice horse I should have kept - Thoroughbred Times

*People associate inbreeding with mutations, freaks of nature, and lack of vigor because it has been drummed into our heads that the closeness of the gene can bring forth deleterious and detrimental characteristics, but the closeness just as easily can bring forth desirable characteristics. Inbreeding to a good performer may very well produce another good performer.*

I myself personally would not inbreed/linebreed, nor would I recommend it to anyone. This is simply because I am not experienced enough to make such a decision. In my opinion, many years of breeding and studying is required to do such a thing. It's most certainly nothing for an amateur xD


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