# Hackamore + snaffle



## mertastic (Aug 13, 2016)

A brief background. My horse was very tight on his right side. He would grab the bit when I rode and take off. He wasn't mean about it, but it definitely got scary at times. I found my wonder bit -- the waterford. However I do not like the waterford just because it's so easy to train really bad habits. My horse loves his hackamore. He does really well in it. But I don't want him to hate bits forever. 

I got a chiro for him. My concerns were confirmed when she told me he was tight on his right side. She advised that I use the hack with a mullen mouth snaffle (he has a low palate) for a few months, using only the hackamore. Then switching to two reins and slowly introducing the snaffle back into creating "positives" instead of negatives. This way he is doing something he enjoys whilst wearing the snaffle and it's basically reassuring him "it's okay". 
Now while the theory makes sense, the way it's going to sit on his face does not. I'm using a mechanical hack with a Myler (the rings are fairly large compared to other brands) and the hack and the bit keep interrupting with each other when I put it on my bridle as a double. 

I haven't put it on him yet, but I already know that it will pretty much be not okay. 

*Has anyone been through this?* I've heard of people switching from a bit to a hack but never the other way around. My chiro also advised that I either do not use a noseband or keep it VERY loose because he will lock his jaw on the cavesson if he can't yawn or stretch it out while riding. Makes sense as well. 

So my alternative would be instead of showing positives while riding with both the hack and the bit, let him sit with the bit while brushing and some massages while tacking up letting him relax, then taking the bit out and putting the hack on to ride as like a "reward" I guess. Doing some light fun ground work in the bit but never asking too much with it in. Then after awhile, ride him in the bit again with no nose band. Then finally working back to the noseband and tightening it up until he is comfortable with 2-3 fingers air space.

I've never had this happen before nor have I ever heard of it happening before. Would love to know everyone's similar or somewhat similar experiences!


----------



## mertastic (Aug 13, 2016)

Here's some photos for references:
*My hack + snaffle double combo -* https://68.media.tumblr.com/8bfa11d682d10066d0568fd01f32d59c/tumblr_oi756dlVSc1roqz40o1_540.jpg

*Where the hack sits on my horse (it's a little high but I lowered it a hole afterwards)-* https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1....=c1e738a0bca135728c6e873a58842423&oe=58ECDD16

-------------

*Eric Lamaze with a German hack + snaffle -* http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01681/eric-lamaze_1681408c.jpg

*Only photo I can find that is remotely close to what I was trying to achieve-* https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t...n.jpg?ig_cache_key=NDAzODkyMzE1NTM2NTA4NDkz.2


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You are most likley not going to like my answer, but you need to go back to basics
If things are not right in a plain snaffle, going to a MECHANical Hackamore sure is not going to fix any basic problem, by itself, or in combo with a bit
A mechanical Hackamore is an extremely poor choice for working on softness and suppleness. Use either a plain snaffle or a hackamore with no leverage (no shanks, as in a bosal )


----------



## mertastic (Aug 13, 2016)

Smilie said:


> You are most likley not going to like my answer, but you need to go back to basics
> If things are not right in a plain snaffle, going to a MECHANical Hackamore sure is not going to fix any basic problem, by itself, or in combo with a bit
> A mechanical Hackamore is an extremely poor choice for working on softness and suppleness. Use either a plain snaffle or a hackamore with no leverage (no shanks, as in a bosal )



I don't mind your answer however it doesn't make sense as to why you believe this would be the way, since he likes the hackamore and hates the snaffle. You say "a plain snaffle" but I also said he hates them and he runs away with them... I guess I could try a hackamore with no leverage but I really don't have the extra money to go around spending 100's of dollars on more hackamores when I know he enjoys the one I already have. If he didn't like the hack, or showed any signs of aggression towards it, I really would not mind getting him different stuff to try. 

I also want to add that when I ride him in a bit I am NOT heavy handed. I am a very soft and light rider. He will still grab the bit and run when there is barely any pressure engaged on the bit. He is a green horse but still understands seat, hip, and leg aids to the point where he CAN stop when I ask him with my seat but when he runs off with the bit, he is so focused on that, he completely ignores my seat. I can't get a 1200 lb animal to notice me apparently LOL. The only thing I can do after that is pull back on the reins, or try and do a one rein stop but he will just grab on tighter so that doesn't really accomplish much and I also don't like doing that because it gets his mouth hard and I don't want to be jerking on his face. This is why I moved to the hack. He is light, responsive, and happy in it. But like I said before, I don't want him hating his bit forever.


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

What kind of snaffle are you using?


----------



## mertastic (Aug 13, 2016)

sarahfromsc said:


> What kind of snaffle are you using?


A Myler. It's the comfort snaffle or level 1 I believe. No port. I learned that horses like mine with low palates need thin mullen mouths and can't have ports due to the small amount of room they have in their mouth.


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Single or double joint?

How thick is the bar?


----------



## mertastic (Aug 13, 2016)

sarahfromsc said:


> Single or double joint?
> 
> How thick is the bar?


Neither. Myler's do not have single or double joints, they are mullen mouths with copper inlays and barrel. I think Myler CAN make them with different mouth pieces, however it's not common. They are known for their own individual make. Here's a great article to learn about them on the bit bank site - Myler Bits - HorseBitBank.com


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I don't even see as to how you can compare a MEchanical hackamore to a snaffle, as it is like comparing a curb bit to a bittless bridle, JMO
You have a lot of leverage on bony tissue with those mechanical hackamores, plus, I imagine, if you show in dressage, you can't use that mechanical hackamore
This, I know, is broad general statement,, and there are a few exceptions, but as a general rule, when a hrose is declared not to like a bit, mouth damage excluded, it is more likely due tot hat hrose never having been properly educated to abit
Because hackamores use many of the same pressure points, outside of the mouth, that the horse learned since he was halter broke, many people then think the hrose should automatically transfer that same understanding to pressure points in his mouth, immediately,also, versus being taught gradually. The hrose shows resistence, has a bittless devise put on his face, and 'volia -horse is declared to hate bits
Not saying this is a fact in your case, but it is a very, very common scenario
Some of those mechanical hackamores you have pictured, can put a lot of pressure on the face of that horse, and areas covered by not much, over the bony structure below
I think the horse should go back to basic bitting, in a snaffle, after all mouth issues have been ruled out


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

There are times i see application of mechanical hackamores, as they allow you to stay out of the mouth, when fairly strong control is needed, as in gymkana, where they are legal western, and in jumping, where they are used, English, plus some trail riders like them, and that is fine.
Then, there is also a reason, as to why they are not legal in judged western events, nor in dressage, I believe
If any of those disciplines of exclusion, are somewhere you are trying to go, then I would use what you can show in


----------



## mertastic (Aug 13, 2016)

Smilie said:


> I don't even see as to how you can compare a MEchanical hackamore to a snaffle, as it is like comparing a curb bit to a bittless bridle, JMO
> You have a lot of leverage on bony tissue with those mechanical hackamores, plus, I imagine, if you show in dressage, you can't use that mechanical hackamore
> This, I know, is broad general statement,, and there are a few exceptions, but as a general rule, when a hrose is declared not to like a bit, mouth damage excluded, it is more likely due tot hat hrose never having been properly educated to abit
> Because hackamores use many of the same pressure points, outside of the mouth, that the horse learned since he was halter broke, many people then think the hrose should automatically transfer that same understanding to pressure points in his mouth, immediately,also, versus being taught gradually. The hrose shows resistence, has a bittless devise put on his face, and 'volia -horse is declared to hate bits
> ...


Quite the contrary, I'm not comparing them. I'm simply saying that my horse doesn't like bits but he is happy in his hack. There are also factors that go into "he doesn't like his bit". any bit I put on him, he generally acts the same (some he hates more) to where he will click his teeth together indicating he is frustrated. He does not salivate or chew. When I take the bit out of his mouth, it is clean. The only one he will really mouth is his waterford, but like stated before, I do not like waterfords and I don't want him relying on that. 

You keep saying going back to the basics, going back to the basics. Is my suggestion not going back to the basics? To where he is holding the bit in his mouth doing things he enjoys such as fun ground work, stretching, treating, ect, and then slowly working the bit back into a riding schedule without a noseband so that he can stretch his jaw as he pleases. I'm not sure how much more simplified you can get.

You say that I need to go in something dressage legal, but my original posts states just that. Not in those exact words but "I don't want my horse hating his bit forever". I will NOT force my horse to wear a bit, whip him, and tell him to get on and suck it up. I don't believe in that kind of training. I believe in slowly building steps, not jumping mountains to get to where I need to be. 1. He doesn't like his bit. That is concluded. 2. Now I need to move on to take that negativity away from the bit and place it with positives.


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Have your tried different snaffles? Smaller bars on the bit?


----------



## mertastic (Aug 13, 2016)

sarahfromsc said:


> Have your tried different snaffles? Smaller bars on the bit?


Yep, I've pretty much tried almost everything. Lol! The only one he kind of liked was a eggbutt french link and the loose ring waterford, but still was not happy in them. I already have a Myler so it's not a big deal to try it out with no noseband and see if that makes any difference.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Never meant to cause you to feel defensive,as I know you are really trying, but I have never had a horse that did not like a bit, but then, I never use nosebands(well, I do have one on loose as possible, and not look sloppy, when I ride HUS ) and thus . quite agree to ditch the nose band, esp at this point in time
When a horse relaxes with a bit, becomes more 'broke' he will work with a quiet and relaxed mouth, all on his own
When he ran off on the right, how did you correct him? Did you use body control, or just tried to out pull him?
The secret to having a horse soft in his face and to a bit, is to get him soft in his entire body
Yes, just having him carry that bit, for now is a good idea, and I would also get rid of any wrinkle in the corner of his mouth. Soon as you have a wrinkle, you have pressure, even when reins are released completely
From what you say,though, unless I;m reading wrong, your horse does more then not 'like a bit', but has learned to run through a snaffle.
A mechanical hackmore will give you that added control for now, as you are adding leverage and the new pressure point of his nose, but, JMO, you are not fixing the basic problem
No one said to whip your horse, force his mouth closed on a snaffle, but you sure should be able to use some body control, take his head away, have that shoulder control,when he runs off in any direction
I think you are concentrating on too much as to what is on his head or in his mouth, when perhaps a greater focus should be on getting him really broke and soft in his entire body, so you can prevent a bolt, can disengage hips, ect A horse can learn to run through anything, eventually
Anyway, good luck!


----------



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I just saw this thread, hope I can give a little input.

Basically, in order for the combo to work, the hackamore has to go on top of the snaffle. From your top photo, it looks like you're putting the snaffle on top. To me that seemed counter intuitive, but if you have the bit on the outside they interfere with each other. The hackamore cheeks are what have to have free rotation. Sometimes you have to adjust the hack a little higher on the nose to get the reins to move right. 
I've ridden in this combo, and it was fine except my mare is too smart for snaffles so I ended up ditching the bit and I just ride in the english hackamore. 

My mare sees bits as puzzles. She tries a variety of head positions, figures out how the bit works and then how to get around it. So we don't go in a snaffle. We had people suggest a few times to go back to the basics, and she is a dream of lightness in an arena in a snaffle. It's all wonderful until something makes her decide it's time to run when you're out in open country and then you might as well be riding a naked horse for all the good a snaffle does.

I used to be a big critic of mechanical hackamores. I was told they could break horses' noses and I rode a green horse that was started in one. He didn't know how to turn off the seat and legs, didn't neck rein and had not been taught to direct rein in the hackamore. It felt tricky and a bit unsafe (well, we did gallop anyway so what can I say). I was very worried about applying too much pressure and he was mildly claustrophobic about it so I had to stay extremely light.

Fast forward to when I tried one on my current mare. I think the leverage of an english hackamore has been greatly exaggerated. The noseband stops the rotation before you can get much pull, and my mare goes comfortably in a soft noseband even if I have a light contact with it. So for one thing, if your horse goes well in it I wouldn't necessarily think it's a bad device or even less than ideal. As you know, people jump in them professionally.

I have less ability to turn sharply, but I still direct rein. If I need to turn hard I use both reins together and that moves the headpiece as a single unit which creates a response. It just doesn't work quite like a snaffle but I can still direct rein with it. 

I feel the same way about a Waterford. I don't see why in a good rider's hands it is any worse than another bit. I was told a Waterford can be harsh. According to my mare, it is one of the most gentle bits around. It wraps gently around the tongue and she had figured out the puzzle within about ten minutes and decided it was a very fun bit. They say horses can't lean into it, but my mare found she could balance against it with her head up just a little, gather her hind end up and it gave her some good traction for galloping. If your horse responds to it and you don't teach her to lean, it could be a good bit. I've ridden a couple horses that responded immediately and softly to it. They liked how gentle it felt in their mouth. I think it's more difficult than some other bits to fix against the molars. My mare could still hold it with her tongue, but she's more of a bit genius than many horses. 

That being said, you have your plan and it seems like a fine one to me if you want your mare to adjust back to a snaffle. However, if she knows she can defeat a snaffle when she wants, she won't forget that regardless of how much training you put into her. My humble opinion.


----------



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

A question: you mention the one rein stop. Do you know how to use a "strong half halt" or pulley rein? 
The most effect way to slow down a horse galloping off with you is not a one rein stop. Instead, a pulley rein is usually very effective. If the horse has the bit fixed you can unfix it and get him responsive again. 

What you do is hold one short rein (usually the left if you're right handed) fixed against the horse's neck. It can help to either hold this short rein in with the horse's mane, or else fix it against the front of the saddle if your horse runs very downhill. This holds one side of the bit steady in the horse's mouth.

Take the other rein (usually the right for most people) and pull and release with the horse's motion. Whenever the horse lands a stride, you pull back strongly from your own core. This "unfixes" the bit so the horse can't lean easily and comfortably against it.

If you want, you can hold the pulling rein for a smidge longer than you would normally release from a half halt. This will often cause the horse to change leads. With a very difficult horse or if there is no room for turning you can force these lead changes back and forth by changing the pulley rein from side to side. This slows a horse down very effectively from a full gallop.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm pretty eccentric, so don't worry if this doesn't help...

"_I also said he hates them and he runs away with them...He will still grab the bit and run when there is barely any pressure engaged on the bit....I can't get a 1200 lb animal to notice me apparently LOL....any bit I put on him, he generally acts the same (some he hates more) to where he will click his teeth together indicating he is frustrated. He does not salivate or chew. When I take the bit out of his mouth, it is clean...._"

None of my horses salivate or chew with a bit. Doesn't mean they dislike the bit. Unless I've let my horse eat with the bit in, it always is clean at the end. 

You might check the position of the bit. Not sure where you place it, but some horses do best with zero wrinkles, and others a little higher.

You also might try a different bit. A bit very similar to the Mylar comfort snaffle below drove my horse bonkers:








​ 
I guess the curve to the side is supposed to provide room for the tongue or something...but it seemed to pressure the bars of his mouth instead. Tried it on another horse and the other horse disliked it too. A Billy Allen snaffle that was almost straight worked fine for them both. Also, a low palate doesn't require a mullen. You might try something like this:








​ Or this:








​ 
X-rays have shown the knuckle does not poke the roof of the mouth in the large majority of cases, and certainly won't with a double joint snaffle. My horse has a BIG tongue and a small mouth. If it will fit his mouth, it will probably fit your horse's.

You also might try riding him with limited contact. With a little time, my horses figure out it is easiest if they pick up the bit and hold it with their tongue.

"_From what you say,though, unless I;m reading wrong, your horse does more then not 'like a bit', but has learned to run through a snaffle._" - @Smilie

I agree. There are techniques for stopping a horse who is running away in a snaffle but I'm not sure how to describe them. A pulley rein is worth knowing...harsh way to stop, but better than a runaway horse. Horses don't get hard mouths from being told 'Stop means STOP!' You also might consider something like this:








​ 
The hackamore/snaffle combo you showed would drive my horses bonkers. It really sounds like the horse needs to practice flexions, laterally and vertically. This video give a good idea how to approach that work:






This is good on a pulley rein:






This one helped me a lot with teaching an excitable horse to stop well:






It really sounds like a training issue, not a tack issue. BTW, this was my excitable mare in a Waterford - her favorite snaffle:








​


----------



## StephaniHren (Jan 7, 2016)

mertastic said:


> The only one he will really mouth is his waterford, but like stated before, I do not like waterfords


Shouldn't it be about which bit he likes, not which bit you like? If he seems to have a preference for the waterford, I don't get why you don't go with the waterford for now. I mean, it's not dressage legal, but that doesn't seem like it should be a huge concern at the moment, since you can't ride him in any bit to begin with.


Smilie said:


> I think you are concentrating on too much as to what is on his head or in his mouth, when perhaps a greater focus should be on getting him really broke and soft in his entire body, so you can prevent a bolt, can disengage hips, ect


This this this! Honestly, the bit is the least important part of my riding for me, because it's the last thing I go to use (voice, seat, and legs always come first, hands are dead last). My horse steers and stops without me having to have any contact on the bit at all. I can control every piece of him (legs, hip, barrel, shoulder, etc.) with my legs. If he locks up and braces against the bit, I don't disengage him by pulling, I disengage him by asking for lateral movements that require him to soften into the contact instead of bulldozing through it.


mertastic said:


> Is my suggestion not going back to the basics? To where he is holding the bit in his mouth doing things he enjoys such as fun ground work, stretching, treating, ect, and then slowly working the bit back into a riding schedule without a noseband so that he can stretch his jaw as he pleases.


I think that's as good a plan as any. The mechanical hackamore + bit setup seems really cumbersome, I'd probably use a rope halter or a bosal nose instead. Like others have said, take him back to basics and treat him like he's never had a bit in his mouth before (and yes, you might have to tell him to "suck it up" a bit, lol).


----------



## cbako01 (Oct 21, 2016)

I just wanted to drop in to say I've ridden in this combo a few times, mainly on my own horse but once or twice on a friends horse. I had the hackamore so it was sitting behind the bit, not in front and it didn't seem to interfere then. My TB also preferred his bit quite low, so that would have also helped. I put on him to help him flex through his poll, kind of like a mock double bridle. My friend's horse on the other hand would like to grab the bit and pull/lean on it, so we added the hackamore for a ride or two to help sharpen him up without having to get in his mouth too much. It was also good as you could just ride him off the snaffle and pick up the hackamore as needed. 
I was wondering though if maybe you could try a thicker snaffle? My tb hated single joint snaffles because he had a fairly low palate and would get a bit 'offended' (I don't quite know how to explain it) by the standard double joint snaffle as well. At first my instructor and I just though it was a training issue and would resolve as he got stronger and more educated, but it never really improved and when doing harder work like laterals and such, he would resist quite strongly through his jaw. So we swapped him into a thick double jointed loose ring snaffle and he was much much happier. A lot of the resistance disappeared and he was much more willing to 'hold' the bit. Same with my warmblood mare, but her issues were different again. I don't know if it would suit for your issue but just a thought?


----------



## mertastic (Aug 13, 2016)

Thank you everyone for your thoughts and opinions. 



gottatrot said:


> That being said, you have your plan and it seems like a fine one to me if you want your mare to adjust back to a snaffle. However, if she knows she can defeat a snaffle when she wants, she won't forget that regardless of how much training you put into her. My humble opinion.


This is what I'm afraid of. I'll have to be very careful. I'm pretty sure his old owners just rode him in a TT or something with no fitting or anything. Chiro said that their first experience with the bit is ingrained into their mind, so if they weren't trained correctly to the bit- this is why he probably doesn't necessarily take well to the bit.



bsms said:


> You might check the position of the bit. Not sure where you place it, but some horses do best with zero wrinkles, and others a little higher.
> 
> You also might try a different bit. A bit very similar to the Mylar comfort snaffle below drove my horse bonkers:


Yep, I will definitely loosen the bit and see. He has the standard 1-2 wrinkles. I will most likely loosen to 0-1 or 0. See how he does. This is all a play and feel type of thing. I have tried a lozenge on him and he doesn't like them. Closest thing I can get to a lozenge is a french link, which he will somewhat tolerate, and I'm pretty sure it's because they are a little skinnier than the lozenges. Now with the kimberwicke, this is on my list to try however it's pretty much last on my list.



cbako01 said:


> I was wondering though if maybe you could try a thicker snaffle? My tb hated single joint snaffles because he had a fairly low palate and would get a bit 'offended' (I don't quite know how to explain it) by the standard double joint snaffle as well. At first my instructor and I just though it was a training issue and would resolve as he got stronger and more educated, but it never really improved and when doing harder work like laterals and such, he would resist quite strongly through his jaw. So we swapped him into a thick double jointed loose ring snaffle and he was much much happier. A lot of the resistance disappeared and he was much more willing to 'hold' the bit. Same with my warmblood mare, but her issues were different again. I don't know if it would suit for your issue but just a thought?


My horse has a low palate, big lips, and fleshy tongue so he really doesn't have much room to be going all crazy with a big fat snaffle. The Myler makes sense because its a mullen (for his low palate) thin (for his big tongue) and well the lips.. you have to size up for that. Lol 



StephaniHren said:


> Shouldn't it be about which bit he likes, not which bit you like? If he seems to have a preference for the waterford, I don't get why you don't go with the waterford for now. I mean, it's not dressage legal, but that doesn't seem like it should be a huge concern at the moment, since you can't ride him in any bit to begin with.


Exactly. I try to brush off the hack critics. I already know my horse likes it and he is happy and listening in it. I fully understand they can be harsh.. as can any bit in the wrong hands. I trust my hands and seat enough to ride in a hack without any kind of damage being done. As for the waterford, I don't mind re-schooling him in the waterford.. if I have to. I actually don't mind doing anything if it benefits my horse but some things are on my "last resort" list. :icon_rolleyes:


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Unfortunately, you probably aren't going to be able to ride with both of those, regardless of how you adjust them. That style of hack is simply not designed to be used in addition to a bit. To do that, you are going to have to change to something more like a bosal or maybe a sidepull.


Also, some horses just don't like bits. They aren't common, but they are out there. My pony is one of them so I ride him in a bosal type bridle and don't even worry about bits.


----------



## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Have you thought of trying a Pelham, with double reins? I have used this with success on horses that have learned that they can ignore a snaffle and take off when they feel like it. You can have a plain mouth piece or a snaffle, I have both, and ride on the top rein and if all goes well, great, but if the horse starts to take off, switch to the bottom rein and bring him right back, then switch to the top rein again. 
Usually after a few attempt to take off, they realize it isn't going to work and stop trying.

Also have you had his teeth checked, maybe for wolf teeth?


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If the horse was happy in the Waterford then you should go back to that if you want to ride him 'bitted', at least until you have him working well in a bit again
Mostly horses that get like your one are made that way by someone using a really harsh bit with unsympathetic hands and if they've been hurt it takes them a long time to get over it. Some never really do
I'm not at all clear about your reasons to not want to ride him in that Waterford?
If you wanted to use a hackamore/bit combination then the only way to do that is with the German Hackamore that Eric Lamaze uses - but the German hackamore is a pretty powerful tool and not all horses go well in them
If you need the hackamore for brakes if he gets strong then a sidepull likely isn't going to work
If you want the option to use either/or then the combi bits won't work either


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Just because a horse runs through a snaffle, does not mean he does not like it, just that he has learned he can grab it and take off
Right now, he respects the mechanical hackamore , more and has not learned that he can run through it
Through correct training, a horse never gets to where he learns to run through any bit, or anything bittless for that matter
Now that he has,you ha e two choices, to continues as you are, using something that works, in which case I agree with both Smrobs and Woodhaven. Either use a double bridle, or a true non leverage bittless devise,, like a bosal, along with that snaffle

Second choice, is to send him to a good trainer, and most of them, will go right back to a snaffle, to fix a problem horse, and a horse that runs through a bit, has learned he can do so, is a problem horse, just just one that does not like abit
Since you have done all those mouth investigations, I assumed any dental issue, like wolf teeth had been addressed

The link, following this paragraph, is one that is helpful in defining the true problem, is is on ah rd mouthed horse, which defines one that has learned he can run through a bit:
,
We’ve all experienced it: a horse that won’t give to the bit, pulls back when you ask for his head or just completely ignores your rein cues. Horsemen have a term for this syndrome—hard mouth.

The term “hard mouth” conjures up images of a horse with concrete jaws and steel gums, bracing himself against a skinny little bit that has no hope of making an impression. In reality, the syndrome of a hard mouth is less of a physical issue and more of a psychological one. Horses with hard mouths have simply learned to resist the bit.

“A horse’s natural reaction to pressure is to resist,” says Courtney Meitz, a reining and cutting horse trainer at Willow Glen Equestrian Centre in El Cajon, Calif. “A hard mouth usually develops when we fail to teach the horse to give to pressure, and he gets used to pulling against the bit. Many people go to a more severe bit to control the horse, and pretty soon that one is not strong enough, either. A stronger, more severe bit is only a quick fix, with very limited effectiveness because the horse becomes more and more resistant to it. The horse and rider end up stuck in a vicious cycle.”
Poor training and poor riding skills are usually the culprits in the development of a hard mouth. “Overuse of the hands, transferred to the bit, combined with the lack of training in teaching the horse to respond to the rider’s leg and seat, is where most of these problems usually start,”

Cure:
Just another short paragraph, with the entire article worth the read, as I am in the camp of this being training problem, and not really a bit problem, although improper adjustment can add to that picture

'Cures
Hard mouths are not impossible to fix. The key to softening the mouth of a resistant horse is careful retraining. Courtney Meitz starts with bending work.
“The remedy starts by going back to the beginning,” she says. “The first thing I’ll do when I get on a horse with a hard mouth is put him in a snaffle and find out if he knows what the word ‘whoa’ means. If he doesn’t, that’s the first thing he needs to learn.


Softening a Horse's Hard Mouth


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Far as my saying to go back to basics, the following, also taken from that link, is what I meant''

'Laurie Takoff also recommends returning to the basics when retraining a hard-mouthed horse, using bending and flexing to teach him to give to the bit. “Suppling exercises are a super way to start working to lighten up the mouth,” she says. “The rider must remember to always use the leg and seat first, and in some cases, voice commands, prior to the reins.”

Whenever working with a horse with a hard mouth, it’s important to resist the temptation to use a harsher bit. “A more severe bit, or switching to a hackamore or bosal, is never the answer to correcting a horse with a hard mouth, since the underlying issue is the rider,” says Kim Hayes. “If you give a rider with hard hands a more severe bit, you only amplify the problem or cause other issues to develop as the horse tries to protect himself from pain.”

Before a horse can be retrained to respond properly to the bit, the rider must have a good seat and balance. Working on a longe line with an instructor can go a long way to developing a balanced seat for a rider, and thus less reliance on the reins for support.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The horse appears to ride 'English' so a bosal is not the right way to go at all as its not designed to be used for direct reining - unlike the English hackamore that she's using or a sidepull which will work 
A Pelham? I can't see why that would be the route to go with his horse. They tend to come in either a single jointed, French link or ported mouthpiece and the OP appears to have already tried those things on this horse with no success.
I don't see where she's wanted to 'bit up' - the Waterford isn't a harsh bit at all, it's a good bit for horses that lean on your hands more so than horses that pull with the intention of getting away from you.


----------



## mertastic (Aug 13, 2016)

jaydee said:


> The horse appears to ride 'English' so a bosal is not the right way to go at all as its not designed to be used for direct reining - unlike the English hackamore that she's using or a sidepull which will work
> A Pelham? I can't see why that would be the route to go with his horse. They tend to come in either a single jointed, French link or ported mouthpiece and the OP appears to have already tried those things on this horse with no success.
> I don't see where she's wanted to 'bit up' - the Waterford isn't a harsh bit at all, it's a good bit for horses that lean on your hands more so than horses that pull with the intention of getting away from you.


There are actually mullen mouth pelhams. See here -https://www.smartpakequine.com/pt/korsteel-tom-thumb-mullen-mouth-pelham-5192?utm_source=cpc&utm_medium=google&utm_content=shopping&utm_campaign=nb_shopping_tes&utm_term=15192

I'll try and keep ya'll updated about his bit progress once I slowly move him into his Myler. If that doesn't work, the next bit on the list is a light rubber nathe. I also want to add that I don't think that their is a magical cure all bit out there. It may seem like that, but rest assured, I don't believe in that at all.  I need to find something that is comfortable and tolerable, and then go from there. And yes, it is quite odd that my horse would like a hack better than a bit but my horse is an oddball himself. Very unique quirks. I don't particularly like them only because when I speak about it, people think I'm an absolute nut, or they are just simply skeptical. But it's what makes him, him... so I just gotta learn to live with it and accept. :mrgreen::cowboy:


----------



## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

I strongly suggest trying one of the Myler Combination bits, as it uses poll, nose and chin pressure before engaging the actual bit. I have had a lot of success with it on a variety of horses, whether they bolt, avoid the bit, or just need a refresher.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

mertastic said:


> He would grab the bit when I rode and take off.


This first statement tells me you have a training problem; not a bit problem. 

You may find a bit (or hackamore) that temporarily masks the "taking off" problem, but it won't solve the problem. As a side note, a mechanical hackamore is characteristically a fairly _harsh_ hackamore in most designs.

You can go to a stronger bit, but if you don't change your riding, he'll eventually run through the stronger bit. Now of course, this may have been something he's learned in the past and not necessarily from you; but regardless of the cause, you have the "effect" where he needs to essentially be re-trained. 




mertastic said:


> I found my wonder bit -- the waterford. However I do not like the waterford just because it's so easy to train really bad habits.


What bad habits are you referring to?



mertastic said:


> My horse loves his hackamore. He does really well in it. But I don't want him to hate bits forever.


Horses do have preferences. They have things they like. 

My Red prefers a Little S Hackamore for running barrels and poles. He is happiest in it. However, I could run the pattern in nothing but a neck rope if I wanted to. Or a plain smooth snaffle. And I would still have control over him 100% of the time. Would it be the prettiest perfect run? Of course not. Is a snaffle his favorite bit? Of course not. But he is well-trained and will respond to anything. That's what I strive for. (And I can attest to bolting. Red used to do it all the time, when I first got him. I agree; it's scary.)

It might be that a horse doesn't like a particular bit. And that's okay. But they should STILL do what you ask, in spite of it, and because they are well-trained. 

One of my best horse friends does a lot of endurance competitions and she has an Arabian mare that hates bits. She takes great care of her horses (chiro, vet, teeth, etc) and has tried many different things. The mare will tolerate the bit. She will listen to the bit. But she hates it. So she usually rides her in a hack because the mare is happiest in it. 

So I can totally understand using what the horse is happiest in. BUT, they also at least need to be trained enough to be _controlled in_ _anything_, in my opinion. 



mertastic said:


> So my alternative would be instead of showing positives while riding with both the hack and the bit, let him sit with the bit while brushing and some massages while tacking up letting him relax, then taking the bit out and putting the hack on to ride as like a "reward" I guess. Doing some light fun ground work in the bit but never asking too much with it in. Then after awhile, ride him in the bit again with no nose band. Then finally working back to the noseband and tightening it up until he is comfortable with 2-3 fingers air space.


If he were my horse, I'd treat like him a green colt. Go back to basics. Start from scratch. Re-teach him to be soft in the snaffle. Even if he doesn't prefer it (which is okay) he does still need to behave in it.

And yes, he's going to have preferances on the type of snaffle bit. And that's okay. And you'll do some bit searching. But again, even if it doesn't fit 100% perfect, he should still behave.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Big Ditto to Beau, as I have mentioned all along,
A horse might not like a bit, a certain bit, but when a horse runs through a bit, you have a training problem
I don't care if the hrose is riding English,western bittless NH, whatever, we condition horses to respond to bits, bittless, what have you, through correct training, getting the horse soft in his entire body, and his mind.
A horse that grabs a bit, runs off, has more than a bit problem
Yes, some horses work better bittless and some with bits, some horse prefer certain bits over other bits, but, a well broke horse does not run through any bit


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Not at all odd that a horse would appear to like a hack better, if he was never educated correctly to a bit, and it is quite easy to confuse, 'likes better, with controlled better,
I gather thus far, the horse has not tried to run off in the hack, and you have added leverage, so no surprise there!
Many people think because a mechanical hackamore is bittless, then it follows that it is milder then a snaffle, and this is just not so
Dr Hilary Clayton, who has studied horses and bits, scientifically for many years,and who also rides dressage , elaborates on this mind set, finding pressure on bony structures worse then tongue pressure.



According to Clayton, soft tissues such as the tongue, for example, are better suited to handling pressure than hard tissues like the nose bone and the palate (the roof of the horse's mouth). "The horse's tongue can be very sensitive but it can also withstand a lot of different kinds of pressure," she said during her plenary lecture at the 2011 International Society for Equitation Science Conference, held Oct. 26-29 in Hooge Mierde, The Netherlands.

"From my point of view, I would be a lot more concerned about pressure directly on the hard tissues (and) the bones, rather than the soft tissues which have a lot more ability to absorb the forces," she said.
Some people are under the impression that if you take the bit out of the horse's mouth, then you solve a lot of problems--that the bit is a source of pain," she said. "I would caution you that taking the bit away and simply putting pressure on the horse's nose may not be a cure-all."

tHE above is from this link:

Researcher Evaluates Bit, Rein Interaction with Equine Mouth | TheHorse.com

This horse does not just pull , get heavy in a snaffle, but apparently bolted with the OP.


----------



## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

I had a young horse once that when I backed him I started him in a bosal and he did well with it and I usually bit them up with a snaffle letting them wear it in the stall to get used to it in the mouth and when they are going well with the bosal I put the snaffle on and the bosal over top for a while til' they understand the snaffle and are comfortable with it. Well this young horse just did not like the snaffle and so after a time I got a mechanical hackamoor. I hate them but thought I would try him with it and he did just great, one of the rare times I ever used one, but it worked well for him. I still would let him wear the snaffle bit in the stall and it did take some time but he gradually did get used to it and I was able to ride him in that, it just took extra time for him.

As far as my suggestion to use a pelham, the op was thinking of using a snaffle bit plus the hackamoor and I thought a pelham would be less bulky and easier to work with if the goal was to switch to a snaffle.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The hackamore the OP is using is a pretty mild hackamore:








​
It may be working just because it is 'different' in feel than the bit, and her horse may not have picked up any bad habits in one. Sometimes a change is enough for the horse to say, "_New day, new experience, starting from scratch now_".


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Got to consider total effect-mechanical hack + a snaffle, That to me is a lot of hardware, just riding on the flat esp.
Whatever, Op has enough info, to decide if there is a training hole that needs to be fixed, or not.
On a horse that is stiff, not giving softly in his whole body, you need to use some direct action devise, whether bosal or snaffle, and do lots of suppling excercises, starting at a walk. neither a curb nor a mechanical hackamore is suited for that
On the other hand, if you just want to have some control riding out, then perhaps you can skip that re training and use something with leverage , that will cause the hrose to 'respect' whatever is on his head, versus teaching him mentally to do so
Guess it depends what your goal is in the end.


----------



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

What I dislike about those articles about retraining a horse to a snaffle is that they are both over simplifying the issue and also assuming that all horses that feel "hard mouthed" have the same problem.

The horses that are being referred to and that will respond well to basics training are those that don't respond to the bit because they haven't been trained to. I've been on more than several of these horses and their main issue is that they've never had a bit used properly so they don't know how to give to the pressure. They also don't know how to bend through their body or follow the bend created by the rider from head to tail. These horses feel "hard mouthed" in a way, because they resist the bit, having never been taught how to relieve the pressure from it. Some of these include horses that were started in a curb bit. These horses are not only "hard mouthed," they are "hard necked" and not supple. 

There are other horses that are "hard mouthed" because they have been used by riders with rough hands. These are a little more difficult. They often know the basics and may have been started very correctly. They may know how to turn and give to pressure, but they usually have to be ridden softly for a long period of time before they become more soft themselves - because they don't trust the rider to not hurt them. These horses may benefit quite a bit from changing to a completely different feel such as a hackamore, because they can learn to trust without any old negative associations cropping up. 

There are also horses that are well trained but are uncomfortable and resistant until you find the bit they like, at which point they will become soft and compliant and will immediately reflect the good training they've had.

Then there is another category that can feel "hard mouthed" but it's not due to their mouth or rider but rather it's due to their brain. These horses will be well trained and do very well in an arena or controlled circumstances, but will push through a bit when very excited. For these horses, basic training does nothing because they are very good at all the basics until they're suddenly not. They know how to bend and be soft and follow their head, but it can be very tricky figuring out what type of bit or hackamore they will go out safely in when galloping in a group or in open country.
They need two things: more exposure to what excites them, and training at speed in a type of headgear they respond to. After this they will improve and become more cooperative and malleable at speed.

This is why I dislike the common advice to never bit up or to always bring the horse back to basics and expect the problem to be fixed. I think it's most important to know what your issue is: discomfort with the gear due to anatomy or etc., lack of proper training, bad handling and riding in the past, or "too excited to listen." If it was all due to how horses were started, then all the top level pros would ride their well trained horses in plain snaffles for speed events. But there are many factors involved, with one of the most important being the mind and will of the horse.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

mertastic said:


> There are actually mullen mouth pelhams. See here -https://www.smartpakequine.com/pt/korsteel-tom-thumb-mullen-mouth-pelham-5192?utm_source=cpc&utm_medium=google&utm_content=shopping&utm_campaign=nb_shopping_tes&utm_term=15192
> 
> I'll try and keep ya'll updated about his bit progress once I slowly move him into his Myler. If that doesn't work, the next bit on the list is a light rubber nathe. I also want to add that I don't think that their is a magical cure all bit out there. It may seem like that, but rest assured, I don't believe in that at all.  I need to find something that is comfortable and tolerable, and then go from there. And yes, it is quite odd that my horse would like a hack better than a bit but my horse is an oddball himself. Very unique quirks. I don't particularly like them only because when I speak about it, people think I'm an absolute nut, or they are just simply skeptical. But it's what makes him, him... so I just gotta learn to live with it and accept. :mrgreen::cowboy:


 Yes I missed out the mullen mouth and the Happy Mouth pelhams but if you've already tried him in those mouthpieces in a snaffle set up I can't see how the same mouthpiece in a Pelham would be more acceptable to him, other than the leverage action would give you slightly more brakes.
I wouldn't go near the Myler combination at all - the noseband set up is way too severe because its just thin twine on a tiny bit of leather with some knotted twine set into it for additional pressure points
The only thing like that that isn't too severe is the Happy Mouth version but there is no either/or option on them
The Micklem multi bridle gives you the option to use as a sidepull and have a bit attached
If you want to spread the pressure between the mouth and the nose then try a Kineton noseband
If your horse was good in the Waterford then how was in a the double jointed lozenge type bits. I would think that something like this would have been a closer thing to a progression from the Waterford than the Myler bits are
Mikmar Cupreon Eggbutt Snaffle Bit with Ergom Lozenge | Dover Saddlery
Lots of horses go better bitless and in some form of hackamore - there's nothing odd about your horse


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

gottatrot said:


> What I dislike about those articles about retraining a horse to a snaffle is that they are both over simplifying the issue and also assuming that all horses that feel "hard mouthed" have the same problem.
> 
> 
> This is why I dislike the common advice to never bit up or to always bring the horse back to basics and expect the problem to be fixed. I think it's most important to know what your issue is: discomfort with the gear due to anatomy or etc., lack of proper training, bad handling and riding in the past, or "too excited to listen." If it was all due to how horses were started, then all the top level pros would ride their well trained horses in plain snaffles for speed events. But there are many factors involved, with one of the most important being the mind and will of the horse.


:iagree:


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms said:


> The hackamore the OP is using is a pretty mild hackamore:
> 
> It may be working just because it is 'different' in feel than the bit, and her horse may not have picked up any bad habits in one. Sometimes a change is enough for the horse to say, "_New day, new experience, starting from scratch now_".


 That is often the case.
Sometimes removing a bit from the equation is the first step to solving a problem that was initially caused by a bit or just breaking a habit
The English hackamore and the Stubben version don't give you much more by way of brakes than a sidepull does
I usually find that these horses are very responsive to verbal cues on the lunge too so going back to basics is a waste of time (unless they have missed out on that step). 
There's something in their brain that kicks in and over rides everything else when they get anxious or excited or whatever else causes them to react in the wrong way to pressure on their mouth


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

We have no past history on this horse, so can only guess as to why he is hard mouthed, or, in reality, beyond hard mouth, as to me, a hard mouthed horse might lean, pull, but he does not grab the bit, refuse to bend and bolt
Thus, would it not make sense to first go back to basics, at the walk, working on bending supplying, and see as to what the horse actually knows, before just bitting him up?
I.m not entirely adverse to bitting a horse up, as a last resort, as obviously, rider safety comes first, but I do believe that evaluation needs to be made first, by someone knowledgeable, and most of those I know, will go to that snaffle or plain bosal, to see exactly what that horse knows, how responsive he is to legs, seat, how much shoulder control the hrose has, ect
You do that riding in some contained area.

If you have to ride from point a to point b, as in tomorrow, runs a speed advent on such ahrose, where the adrenaline gets going, then sure, bit him up, before doing so, as those are situations where you use what you have to.
None of those articles suggest no re training, and just getting on and trying to jump across country course, but to actually, have a rider that knows how to ride and assess such ahrose, do so


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

some more food for thought:


'	
CURES FOR A HARD MOUTH HORSE by Steve Werklund
Steve Werklund Horse Trainer
Does your horse charge ahead through the bit when you ask him to stop? Does he toss or twirl his head, or yank the reins out of your hands when you ask him to turn left or right or slow down? Have you tried dozens of different bits, or other contraptions, thinking that one of them will force your horse to listen to your commands, but nothing seems to work? This is when some people throw up their hands in despair, and lament that their horse must just have a “hard mouth”!

This may come as a surprise, but there really is no such thing as a “hard-mouthed” horse!! 
A horse’s mouth cannot get “hardened” to the bit. Just think of the number of times you have been to the dentist. Can you ever imagine your mouth getting “hardened” to what the dentist does to it? If anything has become hard, it is the horse’s mind that has become hardened or dull and unresponsive. Put simply, the horse is ignoring the rider’s rein cues, and not giving (responding appropriately) to the cue, which is pressure on the bit being applied through the reins by the rider’s hands. Sometimes the horse learns to ignore the rider’s rein cues, because the rider does not reward the horse appropriately for the correct response, or because the horse has been rewarded for the incorrect response.


A bigger, tougher, more severe bit that induces more pain on the horse’s mouth or jaw is not the answer. It is not the pain or the amount of pressure that you apply that makes the horse want to slow down, stop or turn to the right or left. The bit and the pressure applied to it through the reins are just meant to cue the horse to respond in a certain way. This pressure should be as light as possible. In order to respond on a light cue, the horse needs to learn through thousands of repetitions what behavior constitutes the correct response to a given cue. This is called conditioned-response training. In short, the “hard-mouthed” horse has not been conditioned properly to respond softly, immediately and appropriately to the rider’s rein cues. 

So how do we condition our horse to respond softly on a light rein cue? It takes thousands and thousands of consistently correct conditioned responses for the horse to “learn” the appropriate response to any cue. It takes about 3000 repetitions for the horse to learn the correct response, but only about three repetitions for him to learn the wrong response, and about 300,000 repetitions to retrain the horse that has learned the wrong response. To train the horse properly, the rider must be as close to 100% consistent and 100% correct as he or she can be 100% of the time. 
Cures for the Hard Mouth Horse by Steve Werklund

So, we will need to agree to disagree, far as what first should be done, anyway, before just bitting a horse up, which might be the right solution in a particular case, esp if not re training by someone who knows how to evaluate, work with such ahrose, as there is the truth in the statement that it is not logical to keep doing the same thing, and expect different results
I can also see the practicality of someone asked to get on such a horse, and just ride him out, now, of using bitting up as number one choice


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...It takes thousands and thousands of consistently correct conditioned responses for the horse to “learn” the appropriate response to any cue. It takes about 3000 repetitions for the horse to learn the correct response, but only about three repetitions for him to learn the wrong response...


That boy needs to buy a smarter horse!


----------



## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

bsms said:


> That boy needs to buy a smarter horse!


:iagree: Also keep in mind, a horse doesn't know the difference between a right response, and a wrong.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> That boy needs to buy a smarter horse!


Maybe a hyperbola , but gets the idea across taht we train horses correctly, through consistency and repetition, until those responses to a bit or any other cue, become ingrained responses, versus 'forced'

Good , solid horses aren't 30 day wonders, or horses ridden with inconsistency, and without feel That is why a horse that has had years of good riding, has value, over a green horse-as horses truly are creatures of habit

It is also true, that horses re call bad experiences and associations way more easily then good ones, as it is hard wired into their survival instincts

A horse might prefer a certain bit, equipment, but a well broke horse should still ride in anything, afterall, that bit response should be physcological conditioned response, just like giving to pressure correctly being led, or in anything else you do with a hrose. 
If a horse is truly riding mainly off of seat and legs, why does it matter , as to what is in his mouth, or on his face?
If you fail to do the latter, then perhaps you then need to move on the phase two, using what is needed, to convince the horse that he can't pull away, can't halter break, can't run through a bit. To me, those choices are last resorts, because you failed in the beginning stage.
It is worth a try to go back to beginnings, and fill in holes, before going to mechanical advantages, if those holes can't be filled, JMO


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Perhaps, agood time to review this article again, I once posted, sourced from Dana Hokana, giving four main reasons as to why horses resist bits

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/four-main-reasons-why-horse-does-652097/


----------



## mertastic (Aug 13, 2016)

Thank you for all the knowledge guys! You all are bringing up many things I have actually never thought about. 



Woodhaven said:


> I had a young horse once that when I backed him I started him in a bosal and he did well with it and I usually bit them up with a snaffle letting them wear it in the stall to get used to it in the mouth and when they are going well with the bosal I put the snaffle on and the bosal over top for a while til' they understand the snaffle and are comfortable with it. Well this young horse just did not like the snaffle and so after a time I got a mechanical hackamoor. I hate them but thought I would try him with it and he did just great, one of the rare times I ever used one, but it worked well for him. I still would let him wear the snaffle bit in the stall and it did take some time but he gradually did get used to it and I was able to ride him in that, it just took extra time for him.
> 
> As far as my suggestion to use a pelham, the op was thinking of using a snaffle bit plus the hackamoor and I thought a pelham would be less bulky and easier to work with if the goal was to switch to a snaffle.


Yes! Someone who has experienced something like this before. Thank you! 



jaydee said:


> The Micklem multi bridle gives you the option to use as a sidepull and have a bit attached
> If you want to spread the pressure between the mouth and the nose then try a Kineton noseband
> If your horse was good in the Waterford then how was in a the double jointed lozenge type bits.


In the lozenge, he gaped his mouth open with any kind of pressure. It's also funny you mention the micklem multi actually because I made one today as another option to try since I've decided NOT to use the hack with the snaffle (it would simply just be stupid at this point after seeing it all on the bridle and seeing how it would sit on his face.. just not good). Here's a photo of it: https://68.media.tumblr.com/eb2ffd40740dee2f8008d70b01bcb53a/tumblr_oib8ietmib1roqz40o1_540.jpg



gottatrot said:


> This is why I dislike the common advice to never bit up or to always bring the horse back to basics and expect the problem to be fixed. I think it's most important to know what your issue is: discomfort with the gear due to anatomy or etc., lack of proper training, bad handling and riding in the past, or "too excited to listen." If it was all due to how horses were started, then all the top level pros would ride their well trained horses in plain snaffles for speed events. But there are many factors involved, with one of the most important being the mind and will of the horse.


Love your whole comment! I agree!



Smilie said:


> I.m not entirely adverse to bitting a horse up, as a last resort, as obviously, rider safety comes first, but I do believe that evaluation needs to be made first, by someone knowledgeable, and most of those I know, will go to that snaffle or plain bosal, to see exactly what that horse knows, how responsive he is to legs, seat, how much shoulder control the hrose has, ect
> You do that riding in some contained area.


I agree!


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

That's a good idea with the bridle set up and cheaper than buying the Micklem - especially as the only one that really works as a combi either/or is the multi bridle and you're then stuck with the lunge ring on the noseband
We have been through all of this with one of our horses who has a 'missing period' in her history when she was loaned out by the previous owner and returned to them as a very different horse.
She doesn't even like the Waterford so you've got an advantage over us!!
Our horse is fine with the bit when lunged in side reins off the bit and when long reined (drive lined? sorry I always forget the US term for that) She's also fine when you have the bit on her but ride off a hackamore or side pull set up but soon gets agitated when ridden directly off any bit no matter how light you are on her mouth or what bit you use. She goes so well in a hackamore (English type) that we've now given up as she isn't a dressage horse and won't event again
There is a member (Chaz80) who had lots of problems with bitting her pony including the lozenge type bit I think but she goes really well in a Baucher with a Waterford mouthpiece


----------



## mertastic (Aug 13, 2016)

Hello everyone, just wanted to give a little update. I've been really focusing on my horse relaxing, and chewing the bit with it. Today I lunged him around, walk & trot, with his rope halter under his bridle (I'm now using a myler eggbutt and have loosened the bit down significantly to where there is only one wrinkle on his cheek... could possibly go lower actually) and was not lunging off the bit whatsoever. He was just holding it in his mouth. solely for the purpose of him relaxing his jaw. I encouraged him to go at a nice even pace, sighing and showing a more "relaxed" stance (I guess?) showing him we're just chillin' and it's all good. He ended up relaxing his jaw FINALLY and I was super happy with that.
At the end, I made him stand, and I engaged the bit with my hands and as soon as I engaged, he grabbed the bit. I did not see saw but I did do a little take and release motion until he released to the bit and submitted his head. I let go, gave him a sugar, tried it again. I BARELY touched the bit the next time and he immediately released, and started licking and chewing. 

Incredibly happy with the results.  I feel doing this little by little HOPEFULLY he will see that the bit really isn't a bad thing! If anyone would like to add, or give some exercises to do, feel free to comment input.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

At the risk of sounding like a witch, how tight was it to begin with that loosening it "significantly" still left you with 1 wrinkle? The bit being adjusted way too tight might have been the majority of your problem to begin with.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

smrobs said:


> At the risk of sounding like a witch, how tight was it to begin with that loosening it "significantly" still left you with 1 wrinkle? The bit being adjusted way too tight might have been the majority of your problem to begin with.


Agree totally, and that adjustment will be amplified, using a cavasson
The idea, far as bitting a horse, is to allow that horse to learn to pack that bit, where it is comfortable for him. When a horse relaxes, he will carry that bit with a closed and relaxed mouth, all on his own
There is no magic bit that will compensate for adjustment.
Once you have wrinkles, you have contact, even when reins are loose, so the horse is never rewarded with complete release or comfort, regardless of design of that snaffle
Glad things are looking up, and you adjusted that bridle. Far as what else to do, soon as he tries to get heavy, do not get into a pulling match, but just hold that bit barrier, , while driving him up with your legs, until you feel him soften in your hands, then reward
As I was once told, 'you can hold a horse, for as much as it takes, while driving with legs, until he softens, just never jerk, or soon you will have a jerk for a horse;'


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

A horse can be uncomfortable if the bit is too high in its mouth but I can't see how the 'wrinkles' can affect the rein to bit contact or how a normal cavesson is going to amplify how high up you have the bit adjusted


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

mertastic said:


> I'm now using a myler eggbutt and have loosened the bit down significantly to where there is only one wrinkle on his


I probably keep my bits looser than most people do. My horses usually don't even have a wrinkle. 

If you had the bit tighter previously, that very well could have been part of the problem of why he didn't like the bit. It may have been too tight and he was uncomfortable.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

jaydee said:


> A horse can be uncomfortable if the bit is too high in its mouth but I can't see how the 'wrinkles' can affect the rein to bit contact or how a normal cavesson is going to amplify how high up you have the bit adjusted


I can't speak for the cavesson argument because I don't use one, but if the bit is tight (2-3 wrinkles), then it is ALWAYS pulling on the lips and the horse gets no release from that. To me, the ability to feel a change in pressure on the lips is one of the main bit presignals that they can respond to (along with a change in balance of the bit) before pressure is applied to the bars or tongue. A horse that lives with constant pressure on the bit, either from the reins or the headstall, will learn to tune out that pressure from the bit....or get aggravated by it.


----------



## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I use a sidepull/snaffle combo on my mare. I have it set up similar to a double bridle. My 'snaffle' rein goes to the sidepull and my 'curb' rein goes to the french link snaffle. My horse goes really well in it. I only added in the snaffle because I didn't trust being able to control or stop my horse in case of a spook or bolt on the trail with only the sidepull.

Its worked really well for my mare. However she rides in just about anything I put her in.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

smrobs said:


> I can't speak for the cavesson argument because I don't use one, but if the bit is tight (2-3 wrinkles), then it is ALWAYS pulling on the lips and the horse gets no release from that. To me, the ability to feel a change in pressure on the lips is one of the main bit presignals that they can respond to (along with a change in balance of the bit) before pressure is applied to the bars or tongue. A horse that lives with constant pressure on the bit, either from the reins or the headstall, will learn to tune out that pressure from the bit....or get aggravated by it.


 In that context - yes it's correct, the discomfort is always there but that isn't the same as a horse being 'in contact' with the hand in 'English' riding - the only exception to that would be if you were using some form of a gag bit and only riding on the 'gag' rein.
The pressure from a bit that's fitted too tight is going to be between the poll and the corners of the mouth


----------



## mertastic (Aug 13, 2016)

smrobs said:


> At the risk of sounding like a witch, how tight was it to begin with that loosening it "significantly" still left you with 1 wrinkle? The bit being adjusted way too tight might have been the majority of your problem to begin with.


I had it up at 2 wrinkles. I put it down to maybe .5 wrinkles and I do plan on going to 0 if at all possible. So I think that is quite significant. 

But I will post an update: I received a therapeutic poll pad for christmas and I have noticed he does seem to relax even better when he wears it, and is almost constantly chewing and licking. *sigh* it's a miracle. :loveshower:
I haven't ridden in a noseband yet, but hope to get him in one and riding (on the very first hole) by possibly spring? I don't really ever have a goal in mind to where he will be okay with something cranked down, but possibly at least be okay with 2-3 holes tightened and that's it. For aesthetic purposes.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

smrobs said:


> I can't speak for the cavesson argument because I don't use one, but if the bit is tight (2-3 wrinkles), then it is ALWAYS pulling on the lips and the horse gets no release from that. To me, the ability to feel a change in pressure on the lips is one of the main bit presignals that they can respond to (along with a change in balance of the bit) before pressure is applied to the bars or tongue. A horse that lives with constant pressure on the bit, either from the reins or the headstall, will learn to tune out that pressure from the bit....or get aggravated by it.


big ditto!
I think, this is the main problem why people have issues with a single jointed snaffle . Riding without a cavasson, no wrinkles, helps with timing and feel, allows a horse to learn to carry a bit, versus trying to force the image of the horse accepting the bit, given no other option
A closed quiet mouth, due to learning to carry a bit,relax and trust the hands on the reins, is not the same as forcing that closed mouth, using artificial means, JMO


----------

