# "Sticky" horse



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Personally I would not be lungeing this horse but all corrections would be whilst on its back. 

She is, from what you say, being nappy/balky/barn sour. This activity, or rather lack of it, really gets my gander up so I would be working her with spurs amd probably two longish whips, not for beating her up but for reinforcing my legs. 

I would have her going around that arena at a faster pace than she wanted. I would then walk and as soon as I got to the exot, make her canter again. 

She has learned that by refusing to go when asked she finishes work.

One pony I knew was clever enough to work out that if he came in the ring and had three refusals he went outside. Work over. 
I had his owner attend an evening schooling show. He came into the arena and by the third fence had had three stops. Owner went to ride him out. I made her finish the course, she went to rode out and I made her ride around again, until he went clear he remained in the ring. 

Took him three evenings to catch on the the new written rules!


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## RemiandRio (Jul 16, 2015)

I would focus on the rider too. you can 'fix' the mare but if the same, as you said, slightly timid but good rider get back on her, the horse is going to catch on to that and slip back into habits. I would work the horse and rider together. 

I found a good annoying tap tap tap instead of long kicks or squeezing - will make her sides numb. use a crop to reinforce that leg. Also Clinton does the work work work hard next to the gate, rest at the opposite end. Re associate those places that mean work is over. Anticipate the break and catch it before it happens. 

Forwards backwards left and right, I think your idea of keeping the feet moving and the direction doesnt matter is a good direction to go. 

Good luck!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree with what has been said. You needs legs, thus be riding, to help get that 'forward'
There is most likley a combo at work. 
It sounds like she might have been started, with head set and speed focused on first, versus correct movement and impulsion
Next, she has learned to use balking to get out or work, and has also been ridden ineffectually, so that she thinks she can decide where to go, how long and at what gait
The only way you are going to fix that, is to have someone ride her, who is able to push her through those issues, using the 'ask, ask louder, then demand'
Spurs work , far as that 'demand', when the horse refused to listen to legs alone.
Do not worry about a head set now, get that forward.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

These types tend to all be different so you might have to try different tactics.
I never found lunging to be of any use at all - it just makes the handler feel better!!!
A stronger rider - needs to be experienced - can try riding more aggressively, use a long schooling whip, wear the blunt type of spurs you see used by English rider to see if they can bully the horse into going forwards. The negative side to this is that some horses react to it by running backwards, bucking and rearing but still going nowhere.
We had one pony that would lie down on the floor in response to more aggressive riding - we eventually cured her by ponying her off another horse for weeks without a rider, then with a rider. She was a superb jumping pony that had been ridden inconsiderately for just a really short time so worth the time to get her right again
I've had a few that responded better to being made to stand still when they napped - takes a lot of patience but they get bored with it eventually and are glad to move forwards when asked
Spinning them round and round when they nap can work too - that's all about making the wrong thing harder, they have to move their feet even if it is going round in circles on one spot
Something happens to these horses to make them sour and begrudging - they have to learn how to enjoy work and feel good about being good if you get what I mean by that


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I would not longe her and would not even ride her in an arena. 

She needs a job!!! She needs miles and miles of outside riding.

I would ride her miles and ride her hard. I would head across big pastures and out on long trails. I would be sure I made big circles and NOT hit a point on a trail where I just turned around and went back. [But then I never just turn around and head back any time or anywhere.]

Give her some ground to cover and a place to go. Once horses get 'sticky' and want to 'stall out', you have to get them out, ride them on a loose rein (forget about collection and micro-managing one of them) and only worry about getting good, forward impulsion. You have nothing to work on or work with unless you have good forward impulsion. Get it first. And you can get it best riding out and covering a lot of ground. Arenas, circles, round pens and longeing will kill what llitle impulsion you have. At least, that is how it has always worked for me. Cherie


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

Cherie, the problem is that, with the odd exception, she is quite forward on the trail. That's what her owner has been focusing on for the last few months, and it's only rarely now that she will stick on the trail. She's been doing lots of trotting and cantering up and dow steep hills, river crossings, etc. She's supposed to be headed for the mountains for a long week end right away.. The problem is, he owner would like to be able to do the odd fun show and bit of aRena riding, and while her trail riding is 90% great, her arena work has gone downhill. Her rider had hoped it would improve with trail riding


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I would not be jumping a horse, that is not solid on flat work
While she sounds less sour on trails, refusing to cross some obstacles still shows big holes.
Is she being ridden out with other horses or alone? Most horses will happily go at the rate and where buddies on the trail are going, but many won't ride out alone., which shows how broke they really are
Perhaps she is fine going out alone, as that info is missing
Even out on trails, while I certainly don't ask for collection, I do expect a horse to go at the gait I ask for, as long as I want him to
Mix it up some. Put those miles on, riding out, making her work, then let her relax, just walking in the arena on a loose rein Yes, horses need jobs and horses get sour only ridden in an arena, drilled on routine,, but even so, you don't let them stall out at the gate, refuse to move, or quit a gait on their own. If you ask a horse to do something, make sure you have the body control , training on the horse, and that you have the ability to use those 'buttons' and have the horse comply


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BlueSpark:

On the lunge she will try to exert minimal effort with her head tucked behind the vertical (in just a rope halter). When you push her forward she gets witchy, tries to stop, switches her tail,pins her ears, attempts to run out or yield hindquarters away. Eventually you can get her moving out, her head drops and she has a lovely working trot with great direction changes. Then if you keep going for 10 minutes she quits on you. Tries to halt, switch directions unasked, refuses to cross any obstacle and eventually will whip around to face you and reverse, dragging you around the arena. When you don't give in she pins her ears, swishes her tail and kicks at you if you touch her with the whip. "


Don't lunge her, but if you do, use what it takes to make her lunge with respect
A horse does not drop behind the vertical, if he never was ridden /lunged with constant strong rein contact> I also don't accept a horse dragging me across the arena, and if I have to use a stud shank , run under the chin, then that is what happens, until that horse learns never to pull on that lunge line
You can, and must drive that horse out, if he s=tries to come in and face you and you certainly make sure the horse understands kicking is not allowed, or any other expression of disrespect.

Yes, I agree that this horse should be ridden, versus lunged, but the horse also received some negative training, while being lunged-big time.
Also, has not been ridden effectively, as you say her balking has gotten worse. That happens when little things are allowed to slip
This horse has major respect issues,and that is as much of a problem as no forward
Sure, horses only arena ridden become arena sour, but that does not mean you just trail ride them,allowing them to pull this kind of stuff in an arena
Show sour horses, you school in a show setting, as they often will work just fine at home, so you can hardly fix anything there
Thus, recognize that the horse needs to be ridden out, but if the horse balks in an arena, then you have to set him up for that, by riding him there, and making him move when asked to do so


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

The fact that you are prepared to accept 90% on the trails says that you are going to accept a lower percentage in the arena. 

This is a horse that to my way of thinking, needs 'chasing' for want of a better word. 

Forward, forward and more forward, forget head set, forget correct bends, forget a perfect riding position, just get her moving forward away from your leg. The moment she starts to slow without being asked, she gets driven forward hard and fast. 
When asked to slow, the pace she drops into must be forward, not to an almost stop and then picking up the pace. 

Forget the lungeing, forget the 90% and work on 100% forward 100% of the time.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> Yes, I agree that this horse should be ridden, versus lunged, but the horse also received some negative training, while being lunged-big time.


This was my thought. When I'm starting a horse I always make sure the horse is respectful and obedient on the ground before getting on. It makes sense to me to have a good foundation on the ground before you get on. Just to specify, I don't lunge mindlessly in a circle. I use lunging as a brief way to judge attitude and establish a good start to a session. Mostly with green horses or those having issues.



> The fact that you are prepared to accept 90% on the trails says that you are going to accept a lower percentage in the arena


Ok. Let's just clear something up. This is a horse I just started with. My horses ride willingly in and out of the arena and are very respectful on the ground. This is someone else's horse I'm only helping with, and I'm trying to come up with a way to help the owner work through this issue. I don't think this behaviour is in any way acceptable, which is why I've agreed to help her out.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

BlueSpark said:


> She's a but of a nervous type, so it wasn't unusual


This is relevant I reckon. And your friend's 'timidity'. While confident horses can learn to 'balk' to get out of work, 'sticky' ones IME are usually that way due to fear. To add a nervous rider is likely to make things worse, as the horse cannot rely on its rider to be in charge. I think this is a contributor, tho it sounds also like this horse has learned to assert herself too. 



> fights the upward transitions and when you do get them she'll stall out after half a lap and refuse again. ...Eventually you can get her moving out, her head drops and she has a lovely working trot with great direction changes. Then if you keep going for 10 minutes she quits on you.


 Sounds like you need to work on *getting* the behaviour in the first place when asked, and that insisting on her keeping it up for so long when she's not up to it(10 mins lunging can be physically hard, not just mentally) is part of the problem. 
Whether riding or lunging, you need to ensure she learns the Right behaviour works for her, by quitting & rewarding. Once she's reliably doing it on cue without argument, then you can start asking for gradually longer. I wouldn't be doing anything like 10 minutes lunging(eg endless circles for exercise... Well, not into lunging for exercise anyway really) until she was well trained.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Agree with Loosie and under linelng as t what I said before
While I agree this horse needs riding, versus lunging, she still should lunge with respect, and if you can;t get that, don;t lunge her
Once I set out to ask a horse to do something, I make sure that I can en force my request.
Thus, if not knowing a horse, he might catch me with ;my pants down" , able to pull away from n=me and drag me, as all I am using is something that cannot control him, not knowing his vise
If that happens a second time, shame on me' !
That horse only need to have tried to pull away and drag me once, and then I would use whatever it took, to make that horse never successful again
Ditto on stalling out, facing me unasked, etc.
In the words of Tom Dorrance, 'be as gentle with a horse as possible, BUT, also as firm as needed, to make that horse a good citizen
With correct training/handling, we teach a horse never to try and pull away, balk , etc, but once they do, then you have to use whatever it takes, to make them never successful,again, committing that vise


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