# Riding under 2 years old!! :O



## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

i started riding charlie at 16 months....he was HUGE even back than and was more than capable of carrying me...granted it wasnt competition riding it was just goofin around bareback in the arena but yeah.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Huge or not huge - I hold to the opinion that a horse is not ready for riding until he is at least four (some sitting and a bit of walking maybe acceptable at 3-3,5), because their joints, tendons and sceletal structure as such are not ready for carrying anything - no matter, be it a pony of a draft! They may have the strength even as little youngsters, but it's like making kids do adult's work. It doesn't stay without consequences in the long run.


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## horseluver50 (Mar 19, 2009)

^^ I agree. When I first saw the video I thought I misread the age.. but no. Poor horses. It really bothers me when someone is too impatient to care about the well being of their animals... :[


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

im not saying i was hurting charlie...he was vet checked at 16 months and the vet said he was maturing insanely fast...all i did was walk around bareback on him in the arena for 30 min max just for him to get used to me....and only 2-3 times a week. its a horse by horse basis...now charlie may have just been a freak case where hes completely fine but im not sayin go jump on every yearling or less than 2 yr old you see. i dont take on any horse for somebody unless theyre 3 and only for the basics. i dont rush them into any hard core riding....


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## horseluver50 (Mar 19, 2009)

^^ You probably weren't hurting him, and he was probably fine for just a tiny little ride. But, I just don't get why someone even feels the need to get on them at that age, when there is SOO much groundwork one can do to prepare for riding when they are much much older. (not directed at you, just in general)


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## MysticL (Sep 5, 2011)

I agree, it leads to problems later on in life. They are not developed enough at that age. That is why I have such an issue with horse racing. My OTTB is RETIRED from his racing career at 4 years old! And some are even younger and retire from racing at 3  It takes its toll on them later on

This horse looks either uncomfortable in her front feet or is very resistent to the work. maybe imbalance too at that age to be doing that kind of circle work and canter work  Shame


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Exactly, horseluver. I'm not saying you were hurting him on purpose, Roper, and it is just natural that you trust in what your vet says. It's just not acceptable for me and is a thing I wouldn't do with a young horse, if I was responsible for one, that's all. 
I've got a light draft myself and his breed matures very slowly, so, even with him being already 6yo, I still don't ask him to work in full capacity. I can wait for those joints and vertebrae to mature fully until I start serious jumping and such. But that's just me.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

i understand that and i agree....charlie was just a very special case...he just speeds through all his training and learns so fast. we figured we would try it out....but we didnt do any kind of serious riding with him till he was 3....
but yea like i said except for charlie i dont ride any babies till theyre 3.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

i completely agree with you mystic...but theyre pushing a horse into a full career at 2 theyre riding them by 1....its different than charlie

im not saying what i did with charlie is standard though,,,just what i did with one of my kids.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

> RETIRED from his racing career at 4 years old!


Almost hard to believe, Mystic.  My boy was greenbroke, when he was 4 years old, and treated fully as a kid, kindly, with only minimal work and lots of undemanding time with people, also free to have fun in the pastures with his buddies all day long, except for the short schooling sessions. That's a shame the racehorses are treated like this.


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## cowgirlup07 (Mar 13, 2008)

wow... That little filly in the video is sooooooo not ready, she messed her up bad. Look closely and you can see the poor girl limping plus she's having to try way way way too hard to do what's being asked.

as a trainer I only take horses in for riding at a minimum of 2 1/2 years old, no actual work (lope, sliding stop, etc.) until age 4 1/2. Around 90% of what I do with young horses is groundwork, object work, pressure/release and very little riding unless like with roperchick's horse, the one coming to me has been cleared by a vet to do more due to maturing quickly. I require in this case for the vet to call me first. I still will not ride one before 2 1/2...


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## MysticL (Sep 5, 2011)

Roperchick, I posted while yours was going up  I was saying im in agreement with the OP about the video not you and Charlie  Bad timing! 

That horse looks sore to me, JMHO

When I got my first horse I was 13 years old and he was broken in at the age of 3, fully rideable...which of course back then I didnt know was a bit young. And those people broke him using a solid rubber bar pelham!!!!!!!! looking back i could scream. I do think the basics are a good start at a young age (I say that having never broken a horse in before) but canter work on circles with THAT kind of resistance is not acceptable for a horse that is not even 2 years old.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

haha its all good mystic. i just dont want people thinking i treat my horse cruelly when i dont....but yeah that poor filly in the video was started much to early....i dont even like breaking 3 yr olds for anybody cuz i feel so huge on them but i always have a vet check first for them before i get on


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## MysticL (Sep 5, 2011)

I think you do the safe thing by getting them vet checked first  

like i say i have never broken one in myself before but i think any horse needs time to grow and develop their joints and bones before putting strain on them. Thus the reason so many of our beloved OTTBs end up with leg and joint problems. I have nothing against some ground rules and getting them used to certain things at a young age of course. the earlier they learn the better but not to carry weight and work like that horse is doing in the video.


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

Owning a horse does not make one a horse person. Why is it so difficult for the owner to wait a little longer before breaking this horse out. He is just a baby, let him be that. Where is the caring? I see it as being selfish. It should be about what is best for the horse, not the human.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

because theyre more concerned about profit then health...thats why they rush race horses onto the track. they want money....


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## MysticL (Sep 5, 2011)

I shouldn't have a dig at the racing industry all the time because it was thanks to them that I found my perfect horse who I love very dearly, but I have seen a lot over the years because my boyfriend worked as a handler and it's a cruel and greedy industry. 

That aside, the person in THIS video clip is in the wrong in my opinion and blatantly posts the video for the world to see. Ignorance...


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## ThursdayNext (Oct 18, 2011)

There's a horse at my barn that is 5 years old, and considered unrideable because he is "permanently lame" from excessive work. He was started under saddle early and worked like crazy as a school horse - jumping and everything. This did not happen at my barn - the BO wouldn't put up with it, she's boarding this guy in a swap. My guess, she's probably looking to rehab him a bit...she thinks the lameness was only going to be "permanent" if someone tried to rehab him in a hurry. But apparently everyone in that picture agrees that the horse was started too young and worked too hard. 

It's really sad. He's a sweet guy, too.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

thats my number 1 rule... no jumping/excessive hard riding till the horse has been vet checked and 100% sure hes done growing.


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## MysticL (Sep 5, 2011)

ThursdayNext...that is a shocking story  How sad, I hoe there is a future for him with the right care.


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## ThursdayNext (Oct 18, 2011)

MysticL said:


> Thus the reason so many of our beloved OTTBs end up with leg and joint problems. I have nothing against some ground rules and getting them used to certain things at a young age of course. the earlier they learn the better but not to carry weight and work like that horse is doing in the video.


Gosh, isn't the Kentucky Derby a race for three-year-olds? I don't know diddly about the racing industry. How long have those horses been under saddle by the time they're running for the Triple Crown? Is that why there are so many injuries?


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

2 yrs thursdaynext. they start them on the track as yearlings they start racing as 2 yr olds...sad business there


edit*fixin thursdays name haha sounded wrong


ps i heart your poster!


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## MysticL (Sep 5, 2011)

If they are bad runners they retire at age 3...if that gives an indication of when they are ridden. 

This is worth a read.

HORSE RACING

I had the dishonour of being at a race (our country's most extravagant racing day for the year) where the favourite broke down and was shot on sight. His leg literally snapped on his hind cannon and was only held on by the skin that had not torn. I was there when he was shot and it was the most horrifying thing I have ever seen. I was told that it was due to the horse being born with his legs slightly skew and they put him in casts to bend him straight and then let him race. He was due to go to Dubai to continue racing after the race when he dies. Why? because the owners were greedy and these horses are only there to increase their bank balances. They KNEW it was inevitable that one day he would break. That horse continued to run on pure adrenaline for a good few hundred meters even after his jockey had jumped off. 

The same event last year, our Country's beloved horse Big City Life was euthanised after a similar injury.

July sadness as Big City Life dies - KwaZulu-Natal | IOL News | IOL.co.za

The article mentions the first horse I speak of

People ask me why I took on an OTTB? Because I saved him from a future no horse should endure.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

taken from a horse medical book ive been reading for college

_"A high accident rate in race horses may occur because Thoroughbreds, particularly in the United States, are first raced as *2-year-olds*, *well before they are completely mature*. Though they may appear full-grown and are in superb muscular condition, their bones are not fully formed. However, catastrophic injury rates are higher in 4- and 5-year-olds than in 2- and 3-year-olds. Some believe that correct, slow training of a young horse (including foals) may actually be beneficial to the overall soundness of the animal. This is because, during the training process, microfractures occur in the leg followed by bone remodeling. If the remodeling is given sufficient time to heal, the bone becomes stronger. If proper remodeling occurs before hard training and racing begins, the horse will have a stronger musculoskeletal system and will have a decreased chance of injury."_
_Studies have shown that *track surfaces*, __*horseshoes*__* with toe grabs*, use of certain *legal medications*, and *high-intensity racing schedules* may also contribute to a high injury rate. One promising trend is the development of synthetic surfaces for racetracks, and one of the first tracks to install such a surface, __Turfway Park__ in __Florence, Kentucky__, saw its rate of fatal breakdowns drop from 24 in 2004–05 to three in the year following Polytrack installation. The material is not perfected, and some areas report problems related to winter weather, but studies are continuing."_

_yeah 4-5 yr olds break down more because theyve been at it longer....._


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## LetAGrlShowU (Mar 25, 2009)

It doesnt help that the woman riding him isnt doing a great job. She is a little hard on his back and her heels arent even down. At some point, her toes are down, which made me cringe. It's so sad that people want to rush into riding their horses so young. Instead use that time to build a relatiopnship and a foundation of good ground training and manners.


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## ThursdayNext (Oct 18, 2011)

MysticL said:


> I had the dishonour of being at a race (our country's most extravagant racing day for the year) where the favourite broke down and was shot on sight. His leg literally snapped on his hind cannon and was only held on by the skin that had not torn. I was there when he was shot and it was the most horrifying thing I have ever seen. I was told that it was due to the horse being born with his legs slightly skew and they put him in casts to bend him straight and then let him race. He was due to go to Dubai to continue racing after the race when he dies. Why? because the owners were greedy and these horses are only there to increase their bank balances. They KNEW it was inevitable that one day he would break. That horse continued to run on pure adrenaline for a good few hundred meters even after his jockey had jumped off.
> 
> The same event last year, our Country's beloved horse Big City Life was euthanised after a similar injury.


Oh my gosh, that's ghastly. Every bit of it. I would be devastated if I had to watch that. Probably for weeks.


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## MysticL (Sep 5, 2011)

Ghastly is a mild word. I still think about it like it was yesterday. Those horses know no better. They are running machine with full commitment to their "jobs" and somehow they still trust people. 

I agree, you should be using those important years to build the proper relationship with the horse and a good foundation to build form


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

Sad.....selfish humans.


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

At risk of getting a bashing...

The majority of race horses who retire at the age of two or three do so simply because they are slow. I'm not saying there are no injuries but from first hand experience, horses will not continue in training if the owners will loss a significant amount of money on training fees on something that wouldnt outrun a turtle. 

Alot of successful horses are retired at 3 or 4 simply due to their value in the breeding shed. The connections behind the horse would rather a horse who will be remembered for winning the Derby, rather than won the Derby and did somewhat ok in the next ten races. Its about publicity. Look at a horse named George Washington from Ballydoyle - retired to the breeding shed only to return to racing when they found him to be sterile. 

Our youngsters are broke before Christmas, not properly galloping until March. If we have three injuries this year, we'll be shocked. Of over 30 two year olds last year we had two wind ops and no significant or career ending leg injuries. The year before we had one case of bowed tendons and the horse was treated successfully and went onto continue his career. 

If the trainers feel a horse is too immature, they are let off to mature more. A trainer doesn't want an injured horse, they want horses who will stay sound and healthy. It does not benefit anybody to have an immature horse in training. 

Alot of our horses are sold on to go jumps racing when they finish on the flat from 3 years and I'll be able to follow a lot of them in their career for several years after. 

In my time with my current trainer, whom I'm with 4 years, we have yet to go racing and NOT come home with a horse. In my time here we've had to euthanise two horses, who died in a freak accident when one dropped his rider and ran back into the string. We had one other die from a heart attack. All these deaths could have happened in any equestrian sport and as the person who had to speak to the owners, and deal with the people involved with the horses - believe me when I tell you there was a huge amount of grief and sadness and plenty of tears shed. 


Please don't assume racing is this big horrible sport. The people who work with these horses genuinely care for them and take care of them. I'm not saying it's without faults, I'm not saying things shouldn't be changed to make it better, or that there are owners who couldnt care less about a horse being injured, I know this is likely the mindset of some larger operations. 

I'm not asking you to support racing, I'm just asking that you open your mind to the fact that the majority of the people who work in the industry love their horses just like you do.


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## MysticL (Sep 5, 2011)

I'll even give you a "like" for that because you are right. I shouldnt be so stereotypical and every country and trainer is different. There are always those who spoil things for the ones who genuinely care.

And yes, most are retired at that age because they cant run. That is why mine is now off that track, he doesnt want to run at the actual races. But in most cases where they are given away it is generally because they are unsound and have chips in their knees etc. Mine was sound and I therefore paid for him. The trainers do not as you say need an extra mouth to feed.


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## hannah_xx (Oct 7, 2008)

That poor pony in the video! It really honestly does look like its struggling! is it me or is there just not something right about his legs?!..apart from the fact they are clearly not grown/muscled/developed enough!!
makes me so angry


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## gingerscout (Jan 18, 2012)

that is just sad.. I hate people who want to ride as yearlings.. like was stated unless the vet says they have matured anough for a short ride as a long yearling.. other than that.. no .. but In a way im kinda glad the link wasnt posted from youtube.. as I feel that person would be in for a ton of flaming from everyone


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Saranda said:


> Huge or not huge - I hold to the opinion that a horse is not ready for riding until he is at least four (some sitting and a bit of walking maybe acceptable at 3-3,5), because their joints, tendons and sceletal structure as such are not ready for carrying anything - no matter, be it a pony of a draft! They may have the strength even as little youngsters, but it's like making kids do adult's work. It doesn't stay without consequences in the long run.


You hit the nail on the head. And all equines firm up at roughlly the same rate. Stallions can take a few months longer. So you're looking at over 5 years before everything has finished (from hoof to ear to tail).

And for those who look at the racing industry. The TB racing industry dates a horses age at 1 Jan, so you have "2" year olds who are NOT 24 months old, or even 20 months in some cases.

Winning colts are retired as soon as their proven (they'll shoot for the triple crown of course, but winning any one of those is good enough to retire even if you lose the others), because the risk of injury is so high. If it wasn't so high they'd keep racing. There's more money to be made with stud fees, but winning more purses would certainly bring in more money. Only geldings and fillies are raced even if they are champions, since that's where they make the most money. While fillies can be bred, it's a rather slow rate of return. Imagine how many more purses Secretariate could have won if he'd continued racing. Especially since all things being equal a horse is faster at 6 than it is at 3.

If you go back far enough in history (before the US) you'll find that racing at a young age was not a sport like today. It was called the sport of Kings for a reason. Only the nobility had the money to maintain a horse purely for racing. People wanted to sell fast horses, so they would have a race to show the "potential" of young horse. It wasn't about winning a purse, but getting sale. A very fast colt obviously had the potential to become a very fast horse, so worth the investment. That's way they are "futurities". An investment in what the horses potential in the furture. A bit like being an equine "futures" investor.
As time went on people started realizing that money was and could be made on these races intended for getting sale. People obviously made bets, etc... on these races. As more time past it become bigger and bigger. Breeders could make more money racing horses at a young age than trying to get someone to buy them. And things kept getting bigger from there.
No matter what spin people like to put on it, it's a business and the point of a business is to make money. The objective is to make as much as you can off a horse as quickly as you can so that the horses is bringing in more money than the cost of maintaining it. So the sooner you race it, the sooner it might win and the sooner it can start paying for itself. If they trained a horse until it finish maturing physically (and would actually be at it's potentially fastest speed) owners would have spent a massive amount of money on a horse that wasn't bringing in any money and might not even be a winner in the end. (a bit simplified, but for all the details I would have to write a small book :lol
Do I agree with it? Absolutely NOT. I understand why they do it, because I understand the objective of any business (to make money). The industry goes through about 5,000 horses a year, but it easily brings in that many new young horses.
(so that should open up a huge can of worms :lol

And all this over "riding 2 year olds" :lol:

I'll put a saddle blanket on a 2 year old. I'll even put saddle on them by the time they're 3. These are good times to get them use to the many things they'll need to be ok with before you start riding (vehicles, noises, dogs, voice commands, etc....). NEVER make the mistake of thinking that the size of horse is an indication of if they're structurally developed enough to start riding. A 6 year old boy who is 48" tall is no more physically mature than a 12 year old boy who is 40" tall. Why would anyone think a horse is any different. My filly is almost 16.3 hands (and should top out at about 17.2) but at under 4 years of age the most I've done with regard to riding has been a saddle on her back. While my mare, who is almost 16.1 and might make it to 16.1 - 16.2 by the time she's 6 stared being ridden at almost 4.5 years. And even so, she's not ridden long or hard. She still has some growing left to do.
For people who want to build up muscles while their horse is still young you don't have to ride them you can pony them. Start out slow and don't over do it. They will get stronger and you can slowly increase it.


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

MysticL said:


> I'll even give you a "like" for that because you are right. I shouldnt be so stereotypical and every country and trainer is different. There are always those who spoil things for the ones who genuinely care.
> 
> And yes, most are retired at that age because they cant run. That is why mine is now off that track, he doesnt want to run at the actual races. But in most cases where they are given away it is generally because they are unsound and have chips in their knees etc. Mine was sound and I therefore paid for him. The trainers do not as you say need an extra mouth to feed.


Like you said, theres good and bad in the industry - the same with all equestrian sports. It is a shame, I hate to hear about corrupt trainers/jockeys/ect but you'll find these types of people everywhere :-|

We give away sound slow horses whenever they pop up. We have given away several that haven't as much as had their name registered as they just didnt show any promise from the start and we won't ask owners to pay out for naming if they don't have to. We keep a list of people we know will offer good homes to horses - be it former employees, people who have come for work experience, ect so that we can rehome them. 

I can't see why anybody would want to pay for an OTTB, or why they should be considered of much value - afterall your taking a horse trained for one thing and starting it's training all over again. I wouldn't dream of paying for _ANY_ OTTB, but saying that I know numerous trainers so wouldn't have trouble getting my hands on one. If you want a free sound OTTB contact trainers, they want these horses to find homes as much as you do.


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## cowgirlup07 (Mar 13, 2008)

I agree maple, trainers do care for their horses. The one thing I have always wanted to know is why do jockeys use whips? I'm not saying these horses are forced to run because I know a lot of them love it but in my eyes and a lot of my friends I've made in the show and rodeo world wonder why someone would need to whip a horse to get them going faster if they love it so much, like with the horses I've trained (not in track racing) all the riders need to do is kiss at the horse and give him his head to go faster. Just kinda wondering really, curiosity I guess because I've never been to the track.
you are also very correct on horses having long careers after racing. I've had 2 ex race horses, both were amazing animals. Chocolate was a dark brown mare tattooed but I didn't get her papers or registered name (she was an appendix) she passed 9 days before her 18th birthday, I never had to use spurs, whips or anything on her shed run her heart out for me if I only asked that of her. The other was a huge sorrel mare I called Annie, she had a brand that trace to a racing barn and I've seen videos of her on the track way back when shed also run her heart out and do all sorts of beautiful dressage movements. I was worried to ride her due to her condition and age but had her vet checked because she was depressed it seemed like and the vet said she seemed like an old horse he had that literally died of broken heart when he was retired from riding and to go ahead and ride her, take her to rodeos (only for fun) so I did, she passed at the ripe old age of 38. Both these mares had arthritis that was controlled with MSM and muscle rub, both did have old injuries, Chocolate had one bad one that I was told was from her last race but I was given no proof of this injury the vet found no evidence and she never acted hurt so either it never happened or it healed amazingly well.


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

cowgirlup07 said:


> I agree maple, trainers do care for their horses. The one thing I have always wanted to know is why do jockeys use whips? I'm not saying these horses are forced to run because I know a lot of them love it but in my eyes and a lot of my friends I've made in the show and rodeo world wonder why someone would need to whip a horse to get them going faster if they love it so much, like with the horses I've trained (not in track racing) all the riders need to do is kiss at the horse and give him his head to go faster. Just kinda wondering really, curiosity I guess because I've never been to the track.
> you are also very correct on horses having long careers after racing. I've had 2 ex race horses, both were amazing animals. Chocolate was a dark brown mare tattooed but I didn't get her papers or registered name (she was an appendix) she passed 9 days before her 18th birthday, I never had to use spurs, whips or anything on her shed run her heart out for me if I only asked that of her. The other was a huge sorrel mare I called Annie, she had a brand that trace to a racing barn and I've seen videos of her on the track way back when shed also run her heart out and do all sorts of beautiful dressage movements. I was worried to ride her due to her condition and age but had her vet checked because she was depressed it seemed like and the vet said she seemed like an old horse he had that literally died of broken heart when he was retired from riding and to go ahead and ride her, take her to rodeos (only for fun) so I did, she passed at the ripe old age of 38. Both these mares had arthritis that was controlled with MSM and muscle rub, both did have old injuries, Chocolate had one bad one that I was told was from her last race but I was given no proof of this injury the vet found no evidence and she never acted hurt so either it never happened or it healed amazingly well.


Why does anybody use sticks? The whip can be used to urge the horse forward, or correct the horse - just like anybody using a crop. Just because they love it, doesnt mean they always want to do it. We used to have a mare who point blank refused to move when she was in season. Bring her out two days later, no problem. We had to schedual her races around when we thought she would be in season simply because she's go down to the stalls, but wouldnt come out. Unfortanetly for a horse to decide on Derby day that he doesn't really want to go fast.. well... that's not a great time to have a change of heart is it?

The sticks are "feathered" and the top of the whip tends to be quite wide and flat - more for the sound of the smack than anything. More so, the whip is used to keep the horse on course - watch a jockey bring the stick up to the horse's face - he is waving the stick beside the eye to get the horse to move over. This reduces the risk of accident of a horse coming over onto another one, which runs the risk of a horse running into the rails or clipping heels. You will also see the jockey switch hands depending if the horse is drifting to the side, this is for the same reason. 

To many people outside racing they think the horse is hit repeatedly - also not the case. Jockey's practice their "swing" often - what you see is 3 hits, is only 1 - the rest is just urging the horse forward with the motion. I see our jocks walking around the yard, no horse in sight, practicing. 

There are strict regulations on how frequently the horse can be hit - the UK has gone a bit overboard with new rules but they are rules all the same. A jockey is only allowed hit a horse so many times within the final furlong. I can't say what it is because it varies between some countries - even between Ireland and the UK so I can't be sure what it would be elsewhere. 

Jockeys want to get the horses home in one peace. All you need to do is have a look at a clip of Chris Antley and Charismatic when Charismatic broke down - you can clearly see the distress in Chris' face when it happens. Being a jockey is a tough life, and you have to really love what you doing to keep doing it. 

I'm delighted you got so much use out of your OTTBs.. they are after getting alot of "Racehorse to Riding horse" classes going here and they even compete at Dublin Horse Show. A famous NH OTTB named Moscow Flyer competes in them and is helping it get alot of attention which is fantastic.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

My gelding, "Sweet Cup & Cakes" (registered, "Long Arm of the Law", KMHSA) was sold to somebody else, who sold him back to the breeders, then, I bought him. There is a "lost year", from 2yo to 3yo, and accompanying training difficulties. _I know this bc their other horses don't have these training problems._ ANYWAY, my farrier noticed right off that he toes out a little in front. It makes me wonder about how hard he was worked as a 2yo. =/


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## cowgirlup07 (Mar 13, 2008)

Maple said:


> Why does anybody use sticks? The whip can be used to urge the horse forward, or correct the horse - just like anybody using a crop. Just because they love it, doesnt mean they always want to do it. We used to have a mare who point blank refused to move when she was in season. Bring her out two days later, no problem. We had to schedual her races around when we thought she would be in season simply because she's go down to the stalls, but wouldnt come out. Unfortanetly for a horse to decide on Derby day that he doesn't really want to go fast.. well... that's not a great time to have a change of heart is it?
> 
> The sticks are "feathered" and the top of the whip tends to be quite wide and flat - more for the sound of the smack than anything. More so, the whip is used to keep the horse on course - watch a jockey bring the stick up to the horse's face - he is waving the stick beside the eye to get the horse to move over. This reduces the risk of accident of a horse coming over onto another one, which runs the risk of a horse running into the rails or clipping heels. You will also see the jockey switch hands depending if the horse is drifting to the side, this is for the same reason.
> 
> ...


thank you for clearing that up for me. I definitely know the jockey riding very much cares for the horse he/she is on, well most anyways. I've seen in a lot of races on tv where a horse was obviously injured and the jock still pushed harder for more and more, not saying they are all this way because they are not all the same. It varies just like all equine sports, none are perfect.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Come on folks, lets be real for a moment. You're talking about racing, at top speed, hoofs bounding as fast as they can around a track on legs that haven't finished growing (i.e. there are leg joints that haven't firmed up so are still growing).

It's business and everyone connected with it (owners, riders, trainers, vets) all have vested interest in keeping these horses running as fast as they can for as long as they can without breaking down. There's a lot money spent in racing (all these people have to be paid) so a horse has to earn it's keep as soon as possible.

A great case in point would be Ruffian (who was put down after two injuries during a match race agains the colt that won the Derby to prove this filly could have won the Kentucky Derby....a colt's race). The year before she'd suffered an injury that took her out of racing for the rest of the season. But she was fast (very, very, very fast), so the objective was to get her healed and back to racing. Ultimately leading to her having to be put down.

Now did all the people involved care about her? Absolutely. She was big money maker. They all made good money on her. They cared very much for her. Her death was a huge lose of income. But if she had been like many of the 5,000 other TB that are dumped out of racing annually their only concern (if she hadn't had to be put down) would be to get her out and faster horse in.

It's about money. And the only real care there is for the horses is in connection with that. Why else are the so concerned with racing before a horse is grown instead of waiting until a horse is fully grown? A horse that is properly trained and condition until the age of six (pony them, build them up, but not racing them) is a faster horse than they could have ever hope to be at 2 or 3. It's like saying a 10 year old boy is going to be faster then he would be at 20 with the proper training.

At some point you have to look beyond the rush of watching this equine athletes running their hearts out and think about what stage of developement their bodies are at when they are trained and required to run these races.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

PS: Ruffians final injury had nothing to do with her previous one. They took good care to keep her as healthy as possible so she could keep racing and making money (and she did....won what is the triple crown for a filly). They did a good job until both her sesamoids went.


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## cowgirlup07 (Mar 13, 2008)

its lbs not miles said:


> Come on folks, lets be real for a moment. You're talking about racing, at top speed, hoofs bounding as fast as they can around a track on legs that haven't finished growing (i.e. there are leg joints that haven't firmed up so are still growing).
> 
> It's business and everyone connected with it (owners, riders, trainers, vets) all have vested interest in keeping these horses running as fast as they can for as long as they can without breaking down. There's a lot money spent in racing (all these people have to be paid) so a horse has to earn it's keep as soon as possible.
> 
> ...


I do fully understand that, they care for the ones who make money. I can honestly see both sides.. I don't agree with racing and will NOT ever put a horse on the track nor will I break one that early. I guess its all personal preference.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

I can't honestly feel that they really care for any of them. Otherwise they'd be like you pointed out doing and not train them to race so early. They'd train them slowly and start racing AFTER they're body had fully grown. I don't even run my 4 year old with me on her back. I'll pony her, but even that is based on what she's comfortable with and not with me riding her. I won't take her to a ridden canter until after she's 5 this Spring.
I just can't feel that people who only care about the horses for the money they make really care about the horses. They just happen to care about the ones making them money.

Now I'm ready for cup of tea )


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## cowgirlup07 (Mar 13, 2008)

its lbs not miles said:


> I can't honestly feel that they really care for any of them. Otherwise they'd be like you pointed out doing and not train them to race so early. They'd train them slowly and start racing AFTER they're body had fully grown. I don't even run my 4 year old with me on her back. I'll pony her, but even that is based on what she's comfortable with and not with me riding her. I won't take her to a ridden canter until after she's 5 this Spring.
> I just can't feel that people who only care about the horses for the money they make really care about the horses. They just happen to care about the ones making them money.
> 
> Now I'm ready for cup of tea )


very very true. Depending on what the vet says and what xrays show on the joints depends on when I will canter. Some have been mature enough in their joints to do light cantering some more some less. I hate the 4h 2 year old training class. Its western pleasure/horsemanship/halter all in one go, these poor babies work so hard for a d*mn ribbon! It makes me so mad!


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

im not saying racing is a bad sport. i love goin to the track for derby day haha 

racing gets alot of critisism though because it IS such a big sport, and much more publicized than others so it gets more crititism. since there IS so much money and time invested into these horses theyre more newsworthy. youll hear about a racehorse breaking down on the track much more often then some horse at say a rodeo or show....


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I asked my vet just about a week ago when he thought I could send my young gelding out for saddle training. My guy is going to be big- around 16 hands according to the vet.

He told me he knew quite a bit about growth plate development and that a taller horse's growth plates take longer to close than a shorter one. A shorter one may close around 2 years. A taller one like mine will not be ready until 2 1/2 to 3 years of age. (we are talking about the legs)

He thought I could do some gentle riding at the end of his two year old year. But that will be in the winter when the conditions aren't good for training. So I figure in his 3 yr old year (when he will actually be between 2 1/2 and 3) I will send him to a trainer for a few months and then get him back for riding in the summer and put some gentle trail miles on him that summer when he is actually 3. That's my plan anyway.

PS. I thought the filly in the video had a bit of a head-bob at the trot.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Absolutely cannot condone this whatsoever. NOTHING is finished, or even close too, growing at this age. Let them grow up and be a horse, for christ sakes.

This can be a touch graphic, but it's fitting for this topic.
Young Blood: Fatal Breakdowns of Juvenile Racehorses - YouTube


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Roperchick said:


> im not saying racing is a bad sport. i love goin to the track for derby day haha
> 
> racing gets alot of critisism though because it IS such a big sport, and much more publicized than others so it gets more crititism. since there IS so much money and time invested into these horses theyre more newsworthy. youll hear about a racehorse breaking down on the track much more often then some horse at say a rodeo or show....


I've seen tons of broken down reiners and cutters.
Irregardless of the event, poor and early training with do a horse in early.


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## dreamsunwind (Jan 15, 2012)

There was a "mare" haha who wasn't even two yet that was being shown in a hunt class in a show that I was in. I found it absolutely ridiculous, and I wonder when they started her under saddle if she was already ready to be shown.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

WSArabians said:


> Absolutely cannot condone this whatsoever. NOTHING is finished, or even close too, growing at this age. Let them grow up and be a horse, for christ sakes.
> 
> This can be a touch graphic, but it's fitting for this topic.
> Young Blood: Fatal Breakdowns of Juvenile Racehorses - YouTube


I think that's the worst video I have ever seen. And I don't like PETA. But the video is just the most gruesome thing ever.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

trailhorserider said:


> I think that's the worst video I have ever seen. And I don't like PETA. But the video is just the most gruesome thing ever.


Oh, absoutely. PETA is usually a bunch of over-reactive zealots. 
But those, you just can't fake. Brutal.


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

That makes me sick! Greed, greed, greed. If they truly cared, they would wait for those horses to mature before racing them. It is all about money.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

wow. that is one gruesome video


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

They are not true horse people.


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## cowgirlup07 (Mar 13, 2008)

wow..... That's all I can say to that video......


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## Randella (Dec 13, 2011)

My youngest OTTB was retired at 3 - and his front right leg is twisted from being ridden too hard. We're in the process of corrective farrier work to attempt to make him more correct, but he'll never be able to be shown. 

He was actually going for slaughter because of that front leg when I got him in November.


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## MysticL (Sep 5, 2011)

That video might be horrendous but it is exactly what happens to many of these young horses. Many times these events are not publicised at all. The first one I experienced broke down on the far side of the track and the general public simply heard about it as an announcement. However last year Big City Life broke down just past the finish line and thousands saw it. 

I love my OTTB, I feel like I have given him hope of a good future now. That video broke my heart because it brings back a whole flood of terrible memories. 

The sad part of it is that these horses only know to run. They keep running even after they break or until their hearts burst. Yes, the winners are well cared for and "loved" but they are an investment and many owners are only there on race day to claim the glory for the work the trainers do. 

It is a more publicised industry due to the amount of money spent on it but it is also not an industry I support. I stopped going to race days a long time ago


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## chaseranya (Jan 6, 2012)

I believe you should not start on saddle till at least three years of age. No running till at least four. A horse's knees are not concidered fully devoloped till they are four. I had a barrel horse who was racing at the age of two. NOT ME WHO DID IT! I bought him at the age of seven. He was mentally blowen. He had to retire at the age of 12 due to bone spurs on his knees. BIG BIG NO NO to ride anything under the age of three!!!!!!!!! 
Do ground work, bathe, clip, load, NO ridding!


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Just an FYI for those interested in the bone and joint growth rate of your horses.

The weight baring portion of the legs (coffin bone - to the bottom of the scapula) have finished by 3.5 years (3 - 3.5 is time frame)
The vertebrae are the last to finish developing at 5 years, unless you have a breed or horse with an exceptionally long neck. In that case it will exceed 5 years and could take 6 years I suppose (the vertebrae at the base of the neck are the last to firm up)

Most (non racing) experts will agree that horses should start training early, before 4, but not ridden. (halters, leading, tied, handled, saddle blanket/pad, saddled and cinched, manners, ponying, etc...). Forced excercise (running) early, (very early....start foals) is important, since it has been shown to reduce the chance of OCD (more common in TB, but can happen with any breed). Foals that are with a herd that have 100 acres to run around in might get enough running naturally, but in general it's forced exercise that they're usually referring to. And worth it to reduce the chance of OCD and have a horse with stonger bones and joints.

If you take the time to do all the work and have the patience to wait before riding that lovely horse that saddles so easily and does everything else so well you should end up with a solid animal that will have fewer (there's always something) problems or structural issues.

Bare in mind that if you start riding at 4 that there are vertebrae still developing until 5 (in most horses.....certain ones will take even longer). Go easy on the neck with no hard or straining neck actions, since the base will be the last area for finish growing.


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

its lbs not miles said:


> Come on folks, lets be real for a moment. You're talking about racing, at top speed, hoofs bounding as fast as they can around a track on legs that haven't finished growing (i.e. there are leg joints that haven't firmed up so are still growing).
> 
> It's business and everyone connected with it (owners, riders, trainers, vets) all have vested interest in keeping these horses running as fast as they can for as long as they can without breaking down. There's a lot money spent in racing (all these people have to be paid) so a horse has to earn it's keep as soon as possible.
> 
> ...


Can I just ask how long you were involved in racing before you came to that assumption? Clearly you have first hand experiance at the goings on in the industry. Between these and a more recent comment, what you are saying basically is that I don't care about my horses because I'm involved in racing. 

Let's be logical here people - you all think there is a fortune to be made with race horses? for every Kentucky Derby winner there are thousands upon thousands of bottom level claimers. These claimers won't even earn enough to pay their way through one season. 

On average an owner could fork out a base fee of 2k, put ontop of that blacksmith, chiro, dentist, travel expenses, race entry/declaration fees, jockey fees, wormers, vaccs, stride. So lets just say, on average, that a horse who races twice is a month is coming in at 3.5k for one month. How much exactly do you think these horses are going to win in a claimer or handicap? What's the chances these horses win more than one claimer or maiden? You might see a race with a value of 8000 - this doesnt just be thrown to the owner - the purse is divided amongst the top finishers (varies depending on the race) as well as percentages to the trainer and jockey. 

If the horse turns out to be fantastic, happy days. The chances of finding another Frankel, Cigar or Black Caviar - slim to nil. You will find that the majority of these owners are in it for the love of the sport and the horse. So, while you think that myself, my co workers and our clients don't care - you are more than mistaken. 

Just because it isn't your cup of tea, don't for a second slate myself or those who also work with me. I guarantee you that the lads and lasses in the yard spend more time with these horses than you probably do your own. They are with these horses 7 days a week, caring for them and building bonds with them. They don't just go out riding for a few hours and go do something else with the rest of their day - they are in those stables from early morning til late evening. 

I'm sure I'm coming across as defensive.. but to be honest, when somebody says I don't care about my horses, I have every right to be because I care about them just as much as any show jumper, barrel racing or happy hacker. 

As for Ruffian - have you seen a many match races since? Times have changed, race tracks evolved, there are constant changes to make surfaces safer and keep horses healthy.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Maple said:


> Can I just ask how long you were involved in racing before you came to that assumption? Clearly you have first hand experiance at the goings on in the industry. Between these and a more recent comment, what you are saying basically is that I don't care about my horses because I'm involved in racing.
> 
> Let's be logical here people - you all think there is a fortune to be made with race horses? for every Kentucky Derby winner there are thousands upon thousands of bottom level claimers. These claimers won't even earn enough to pay their way through one season.
> 
> ...


I'm saying the racing is a business. And the purpose of that business is to make more money than you spend. If you work differently then you're a RARE person. No one imagines that there's not a lot of money lost in the industry (you can't throw out roughly 5,000 horses and year and bring in that many new ones without someone losing money). But it's still a business and the point is to make money as quickly as possible with the horse. Hope he wins big and make more money on stud fees.

You can sugar coat it and put whatever spin you like on it. The facts don't change (even if you race them on hand spun silk tracks).

The growth rate of equines is well documented. The effects of racing horses at young ages are rather obvious after so many years. You can argue them till your blue it won't change the facts. Changing the tracks is only to hopefully reduce the amount of damage, but doesn't change that these horses are not yet grown and racing on undeveloped joints and bones.
There were people in the medical industry (that worked for the companies making the smokes) that argue for years (complete with their own evidence) that smoking wasn't the health risk that the rest of the medical community claimed. Didn't change the facts, just muddied the water and confused some people.

Yes, I spent years in the northern half of VA. The starting point of some incredible TB race horses. From the age of 5 I'd been taken to watch trial runs and thought racing was wonderful. It wasn't until I was older and started seeing the aftermath that I shed my childlike attitude about the racing industry (VA having some of the best equine Vet schools was a good influence too) and my opinion on some of the people I knew who made their living from it.

Do people care for the horses and cry when they go down. They sure do. When Ruffian went down in that $25,000 purse race (big money in the early 70's) everyone connected with her cried. And tried very hard to save her. But had they trained her slowly and waited to race her 2 years AFTER the date she died, she'd likely have lived a long time and still won many races.....but how much money would have been spent to get her there? All on the HOPE that she would be the great racing horse that she was. As you point out there's alot of money to having these horses (so they have to start making money ASAP)

Of course it probably wasn't until Barbaro that most of the general public started to question a lot of what the racing industry is all about. So I'll use him as an example (plenty of photos of him with his fractured pasern) . Not that his injury was as severe as some others, but it probably got the most attention by the media and brought more pressure on the industry.

In these pictures I PROMISE you that ALL of these people were concern. Barbaro was a big money horse, so this represented a major loss of potential income and the industry was accutely aware of what this kind of incident could mean for the TB racing industry PR. (and look at the damage control they worke on)

If there wasn't a medical problem with it you wouldn't have the number of problems in TB racing and there wouldn't be so much medical evidence against it, so that the TB racing industry wouldn't have to hire people to defend the practice racing too young.

Everyone is, of course, free to believe what they want. I use to believe it was great too (a VERY long time ago). Before I became better informed and better educated.


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

its lbs not miles said:


> Yes, I spent years in the northern half of VA. The starting point of some incredible TB race horses. From the age of 5 I'd been taken to watch trial runs and thought racing was wonderful. It wasn't until I was older and started seeing the aftermath that I shed my childlike attitude about the racing industry (VA having some of the best equine Vet schools was a good influence too) and my opinion on some of the people I knew who made their living from it.
> 
> Do people care for the horses and cry when they go down. They sure do. When Ruffian went down in that $25,000 purse race (big money in the early 70's) everyone connected with her cried. And tried very hard to save her. But had they trained her slowly and waited to race her 2 years AFTER the date she died, she'd likely have lived a long time and still won many races.....but how much money would have been spent to get her there? All on the HOPE that she would be the great racing horse that she was. As you point out there's alot of money to having these horses (so they have to start making money ASAP)
> 
> ...


As much as I'd love to continue on with this discussion, I don't think I'm going to bother. There is no point trying to speak to somebody who has a closed mind and not open to other views or gaining knowledge outside of their beliefs. If you think that being in an area with plenty of racing means you involved, your highly mistaken. I have yet to meet a trainer, jockey, stable lad or lass who hasn't been as passionate about their horses as myself. If you want to think this is rare, so be it. Your no "better educated" than myself or any other person, alot of other people will open their minds and realize they can pick up something from somebody else and learn something. They may not agree with everything, but knowledge will be gained and this will make them an overall better horseperson.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Maple said:


> I guarantee you that the lads and lasses in the yard spend more time with these horses than you probably do your own. They are with these horses 7 days a week, caring for them and building bonds with them.


While I work a full time job, a single father of 3 (but only 2 still in school and at home), and I'm with my horses every single day, 7 days a week. I go straight from work. I pick out their feet every day, even in the pouring rain, because they won't enter a stall unless it's for food (their choice, they have fee choice to be in or out whenever the like). Take them for their walks (one at a time, unless on of the children comes out too). 

A typical day: During the week I work a 10 hour day (0600 - 1630) and then stay with my horses until I've done at the least the feet and a 30 min each, walk (for my filly) or ride (for my mare). I get back home about 2000, have supper and do some quality time with family. On weekends I spend from about 0800-1800 working with the horses.

On some days (like today) I take off work. I was with the horses at 0800 (in the rain, but it cleared later) and left them about 1600. In about a year I'll retire and move them, with me, out to my farm. At that point I'll be with them all day.

I'm planing to take my first vacation (actually going some place with the family) for the first time in 3 years. So you and your "lads and lasses" have each spent the last roughly 1,000 days doing hourses every day without missing a single day? The owners where I board my girls will tell you that I'm there EVERY day.

Now anytime you, your lads and lasses want to match my daily routine do let me know. I'll wager that none of you will take on my job and family requiremente and still maintain your level of horse activity (doubt that you'd even match mine of roughly 14 hours before you go home to eat and call it a day). Then up at 0500 the next day to do it all again. Not saying I'm always working with them. I'll spend hours just sitting in the pasture with them as they impatiently stand by me for attention (and I sometimes do my internet and email activities from their pasture). I do love my down time with them.

I've been riding horses for 44 years. Training them for riding and in some cases working since 1972. I'll be happy to compare my level of commetment to my horses (past and present) to you and your lads and lasses. Because most people who work the hours I do with the family obligations I have are NOT going to put in the time I do with horses.


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

its lbs not miles said:


> While I work a full time job, a single father of 3 (but only 2 still in school and at home), and I'm with my horses every single day, 7 days a week. I go straight from work. I pick out their feet every day, even in the pouring rain, because they won't enter a stall unless it's for food (their choice, they have fee choice to be in or out whenever the like). Take them for their walks (one at a time, unless on of the children comes out too).
> 
> A typical day: During the week I work a 10 hour day (0600 - 1630) and then stay with my horses until I've done at the least the feet and a 30 min each, walk (for my filly) or ride (for my mare). I get back home about 2000, have supper and do some quality time with family. On weekends I spend from about 0800-1800 working with the horses.
> 
> ...


I'm just wondering when it became a competition over how much time you spend with your horses? My point in that statement was regarding the bond they built having been with these horses day in and day out.. which was answered in relation to the comment that they don't care. 

I don't know what you want me to say? Give you a pat on the back and say your the best horseman in the world? I'm sorry, but EVERY single person on this forum will have a busy life outside their horses and care for their horses just as much as you. Every lad and lass in my yard will have to juggle work, horses and family as well. Some have their own families, their own horses, and other commitments as well. Our head travelling lass drives 2 hours to and from work every day to take care of her horses. 

Nobody is any better than anybody else. I juggle 2 young kids - one of whom is only 7 months old, 2 horses, work, ect but I'm not expecting any praise for it - this is what we call life, nobody is going to win any awards for it.


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## Susan Crumrine (Oct 5, 2009)

Well after working in Ocala, Fl, for some of the worst pin hookers down there, I can tell you they are not doing those young horses any good.
They usually hold up just fine with two mile slow gallops every day, but as soon as you work or breeze them, they come up lame.
I can tell you this, because I was there.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

I don't doubt that many in the racing industry care deeply about their horses, just as much the denizens of this forum care about theirs. Yet that doesn't change the facts that two-year old racing is based primarily on economics and that the horses are put at risk due to being pushed to limits of their physical abilities while still underdeveloped and growing. I would also say that the problem is systemic, with the structure of the industry geared towards selling and racing young horses and the biggest races being the three-year old races.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

2 yrs old is not too young if the horse is structrally fit and starts out in a light exercise program,and remember,not everyone spends alot of time with groundwork or friendship training.they do this as they go.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Did not read this thread.

I would not start a day under two. If the horse is big enough, I might slide on when they are 1 1/2, sit there, then slide off the other side. Wouldn't even walk them.

I don't have a problem starting a horse at two years old. Do you have ANY idea how much stuff you can get done with a two year old without even breaking into a trot? All the foundation goes walk to trot THEN to canter. I might canter a circle in the roundpen a couple times but no hard stopping or running around. But even at just the walk you can get some beautiful work on suppling, haunch turn, forehand turn, sidepassing, bending, etc. You don't have to ride them into the ground for that.

Do your ground work as a foal and then as a yearling. Ride slow at two. Start gentle work at three. You would be amazed at how ready my three year olds are when we start by doing nothing but slow.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

sorrelhorse,i train for a living.so yes,i do know what i can get done as a 2 yr old.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I'm not doubting you, Rob. It was a rhetorical question....


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## Fruitloops (Jul 23, 2008)

Doesn't matter which way you try to spin it, riding a horse before 2 years of age (even 2 years old is really pushing it in my mind) is abuse. Plain and simple. There is no grey area. You can make excuses until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't change the facts. Sorry. 

I'm sure some of the people who start their babies too early DO really love and care for them - doesn't make what they do any less bad/cruel. It's like saying "I really do love Sparkles and I see him/work with him everyday, I just can't help beating him when he ****es me off". Logic? What logic? 

As a disclaimer: I have zero knowledge on the racing industry, and I am not singling them out - my statement goes for everyone who has broken in/ridden a yearling, or thinks it is OK, regardless of discipline. 

*I know this probably won't be received very well but please do not kill me for saying this! LOL this is not directed at anyone in particular; just really wanted to get that off my chest*


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

i apoligize sorrelhorse for mis-understanding.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Fruitloops said:


> I'm sure some of the people who start their babies too early DO really love and care for them - doesn't make what they do any less bad/cruel. It's like saying "I really do love Sparkles and I see him/work with him everyday, I just can't help beating him when he ****es me off". Logic? What logic?


You are saying that starting a horse at two is the same as beating it?

Now that is not logical!


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

rob said:


> 2 yrs old is not too young if the horse is structrally fit and starts out in a light exercise program,and remember,not everyone spends alot of time with groundwork or friendship training.they do this as they go.


There is NO two year old stucturally fit. Period.

This one sentance confirms I'd never send a horse for you to train. Or break.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

thats up to you,and i don't hold that against you.i have a barn full of 2 yr olds,and i'm not going to wait for retirement age to start them.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

3-4 is retirement age??


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

just a saying,but i would not start arabians at 2.the ones i have rode were all small in bone structure.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

rob said:


> just a saying,but i would not start arabians at 2.the ones i have rode were all small in bone structure.


Arabians, Quarter Horses, Drafts... Not one of them is structually fit at two. And if you really think that, I highly suggest taking an Equine course at a local college.
Being thick boned has nothing to do with their growth rate.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

as soon as you go to a ranch or a cutting horse training facility with alot of 2yr olds.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

rob said:


> as soon as you go to a ranch or a cutting horse training facility with alot of 2yr olds.


There's a lot of idiots out there, too.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

matter of opinion,but i do agree with YOU.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

If there is anyone here that is being held captive in an arena and being forced to ride long yearlings and two year olds please raise your hand and I will see that someone comes to your rescue. Otherwise if you don't want to start two year olds then DON'T. If you don't want to see them ridden then don't go to places where you know they are ridden and certainly don't watch them on youtube.

Why waste all this time on something negative when we could be argueing about something like horse slaughter or using tiedowns or barefoot vs shoeing.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

thank you k


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

WSArabians said:


> There is NO two year old stucturally fit. Period.
> 
> This one sentance confirms I'd never send a horse for you to train. Or break.


I don't know why so many people think starting a horse lightly at the age of 2 is a death sentence. My horse (QH WP horse) was started at 2, in the show pen at 3, and guess what...he's 17 years old now, still showing and winning and has NEVER been lame in his life.

If you use commonsense there is no harm.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I agree strongly with you, GotaDunQH.

Like I said in my earlier posts. You can accomplish SO MUCH on a two year old without even breaking into a trot. They do more damage to their own joints running around like a mad colt in the pasture, whipping around, running full speed down a fence, rolling back, rearing, bucking, biting and playing with other horses.

I highly doubt teaching them their buttons under saddle *lightly at the walk *is going to forever ruin their development. 

I meet a lot of people out there, who literally would love to kill me because I have a colt started at two years old. Well, contrary to popular belief, light starting isn't going to cause their spines to snap in four places, their knees to explode and their legs to fall off. I'm sorry if that fact disrupts your pattern of thinking, but it is the truth.

Now, running a two year old around, sliding hard, spinning them into the ground, thumping on them, spurring them until they bleed and make big stops, fast turns and chasing cows all day...That can cause some very serious long term damage.

And, on that note, some horses are NOT ready to start at two. I am aware of this. I would never start an arabian at two, for example. That particular breed should always be started later. But, there are horses that can be started at two years old.

And, like kevinshorses said (Bless him. Seriously) if anyone here is being forced against their will to start a horse at two years old, say so. I'll personally join the rescue party to save you from it.

But answer me this: Does teaching a horse the basic leg cues *at the walk *cause them to be forever lame? Does *starting them slowly, lightly, and correctly *cause them to be forever lame? How many horses do you know that have actually gone lame and the cause has been *determined to be from starting to early and NOT another cause? *How many of you are going to tell the *thousands *of trainers around the world that they've been abusing their horses for *starting them lightly *at two years old?


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^if there was a way to LOVE this I would! So, I just had to like it instead...LOL.

There is so much that can be done at the walk; people forget TOTALLY that the walk is even a gait. If you can build a solid foundation at the walk...with leg, seat and hand aids, steering, leg yields, direct AND indirect reining, etc....it's a piece of cake when that horse is ready to trot, and then canter.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

From my experience it really doesn't matter what age you start them, be it 2 years or 5 years old.

It has to do with the demands physically and mentally put upon them their entire career.

I have and do start colts at two years old, shoot me, but the sessions are short. As soon as he improves and makes an effort I get off. No big deal. Most show horses that are started at two go on and lead full show careers whether be an open horse or go on to pack a non-pro around, then after that the kids get to ride them.

I have also started ranch horses at 5 years old and they are crippled at the age of 15.

It is in how you use them....


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## chaseranya (Jan 6, 2012)

So guys, I still think and say no ridding under 3. It's not about how structally put together a horse is. It's about thier KNEES!!! Unless your gonna take your 2 year old to the vet to have some pricy proceedure done to see if your horse can indure that. Honestly if you love your horse, YOU CAN WAIT.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

chaseranya said:


> So guys, I still think and say no ridding under 3. It's not about how structally put together a horse is. It's about thier KNEES!!! Unless your gonna take your 2 year old to the vet to have some pricy proceedure done to see if your horse can indure that. Honestly if you love your horse, YOU CAN WAIT.



Everyone keeps talking about the growth plates in their knees....really? I have seen/heard more injuries due to over extension of ligaments/tendons from stress of the work load and condition of the ground than I have have of knee injuries. Maybe I am off base here and if I am please explain.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

i'm sorry,but i did say in an earlier forum about this topic,structrally fit and knees closed.and i apoligize,but i get paid to train them,not love them.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Use horses for what they were bred and intended for rather than what you read and dream of and you will find a different horse.
Unknown


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

chaseranya said:


> So guys, I still think and say no ridding under 3. It's not about how structally put together a horse is. It's about thier KNEES!!! Unless your gonna take your 2 year old to the vet to have some pricy proceedure done to see if your horse can indure that. Honestly if you love your horse, YOU CAN WAIT.


So don't ride yours untill thier three!!!!


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## chaseranya (Jan 6, 2012)

If I ever need someone to train my horse, I would hope they love them!!!


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Use horses for what they were bred and intended for rather than what you read and dream of and you will find a different horse.
> Unknown


I haven't heard that before - what a fantastic quote!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

chaseranya said:


> If I ever need someone to train my horse, I would hope they love them!!!


 You'd be better off finding a trainer that is qualified and skilled and do the looving on your horse yourself. A professional trainer that's any good will have ten or more horses to ride and won't have time to give kisses to Fluffy unless you're standing there with your checkbook.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

^hahahahaha


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

chaseranya said:


> If I ever need someone to train my horse, I would hope they love them!!!


Love them? Do you love your co-workers? Clients, employees? No. It's a business relationship. You cannot be emotionally invested.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Don't confuse "enjoyment" or "precaution" with "love".

The horses I train for other people I don't "love". I do have their best interest in mind when I am riding them, I do make sure they are protected with boots on and everything fitted correctly and I be sure to warm them up and cool them down correctly so they stay sound for my clients. I may give them pats when they do something right, but I consider that more of a "training aid" than "love" for that horse.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> So don't ride yours untill thier three!!!!


Thanks for the picture. Nicer to be able to show it than just give the developing rates (which is all I've ever done).

Would love to find some someone put the pictures for the entire equine bone and joint developement (top to bottom, front to back) on line. I think pictures might do a lot to help people see why they need to wait, since pictures of the effects don't seem to work as well as one would hope.

Kudos.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

chaseranya said:


> So guys, I still think and say no ridding under 3. It's not about how structally put together a horse is. It's about thier KNEES!!! Unless your gonna take your 2 year old to the vet to have some pricy proceedure done to see if your horse can indure that. Honestly if you love your horse, YOU CAN WAIT.


 
Great photo. Thanks for putting it up. Pitty it won't sink in with everyone, but it's great to be able to show at least part of the developement as an example of what we should wait.


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## caseymyhorserocks (Apr 5, 2010)

So sad... I watched a video of a horse only 3 years old, jumping 3 FEET! And in the description it said "this horse has only been ridden for 4 months, 3 years old, and is already jumping 3 feet!" That made me sick :-(


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

caseymyhorserocks said:


> So sad... I watched a video of a horse only 3 years old, jumping 3 FEET! And in the description it said "this horse has only been ridden for 4 months, 3 years old, and is already jumping 3 feet!" That made me sick :-(


Now that right there is bad. Never would I do that to.


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## chaseranya (Jan 6, 2012)

Wow I thought I was on a forum talking with people who love horses, and not the fluffin puff way.In a passion way. I must of some how got onto a forum with bitter horse trainers who hate their job. WOW!!! 
I work in a hosital, and I do love my co workers and my patients or I woul d be fired.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

^ I'm sorry, did ever say I hate my job? Maybe after you train dozens upon hundreds upon thousands of horses like a lot of people on here have you'd feel the same. I haven't been training professionally very long. I enjoy the horses I ride, but "love" is a very strong word. People throw it around way too much. I _like _a lot of the horses, some of them I think should be holes in the ground, but it's the same with people. Some horses I have enjoyed more than others.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I enjoy every horse that comes to my place. Some when they arrive and some when they leave!


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## chaseranya (Jan 6, 2012)

I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

chaseranya,let me repeat myself.we don't get paid to love them,we get paid to train them.we don't abuse them,but we can't afford to pamper them.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

chaseranya said:


> I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.


So do I.


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## chaseranya (Jan 6, 2012)

I just seen your from raceland, La. You must race, and not barrels. So I deffinatly ubderstand where your at. Enough said.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Now you're making hasty assumptions. Perhaps you should not do that. You know what happens when you assume, don't-cha? ;D


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## gingerscout (Jan 18, 2012)

I think I need to pull out the popcorn and a beer.. this thread is interesting..


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

never raced a day in my life smartie,but maybe you should look me up under aqha professional horsemen.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Cool thread - nice and feisty!

Here is my two cents worth. There are people out there who will break in two year olds their entire training career and none of those horses will come to any harm. There are ham fisted wanker trainers, who regardless of a horses age will manage to create problems. Methods matter as much as age.

On a personal note, purely for myself, I won't break in any younger than 3, and I am a long, slow process kind of person. I broke my mare in as a rising 4 year old, I didn't have my first canter on her until after about a year of riding her. She is now rising 7 and I have just started putting her over little logs (and I'm talking 8" at the most). This is purely my own mentality and I am happy with it but then again I am NOT a professional trainer and only have myself to please.

Unfortunately when it comes to the racing industry I have nothing nice to say. I don't care how many paragraphs are written, bleating on endlessly about how much race horse owners "love their horses" I am not going to buy it. I have worked in the industry both here and the UK and I am with lbs not miles on this. Nearly every example of _"something Really stupid that should have never been done to a horse/with a horse/around a horse"_ that I have, has come from my time working in racing stables. In my personal experience race horse owners and breeders do not have a lot of horsemanship skills (though god knows they will tell you other wise!)and trainers are purely results orientated which makes them very unsympathetic to the needs of an individual horse.


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## MysticL (Sep 5, 2011)

http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf

I think this is worth a read. From an individual with a PhD in this regard. 

No leg, no horse...bottom line.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

rob said:


> never raced a day in my life smartie,but maybe you should look me up under aqha professional horsemen.


Hey Rob...looked you up under Pro Horsemen on AQHA. Nice to meet you! Looks like you to a few different western disciplines. Is cutting your favorite?


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

chaseranya said:


> I just seen your from raceland, La. You must race, and not barrels. So I deffinatly ubderstand where your at. Enough said.


Yes the big bad racing people - the black sheep of the horseworld. We're that cruel I often wonder why I have a rescued horse from the slaughterhouse. A horse who was so badly beaten he was headshy and has scars all over one side of his face. He was beaten? Surely it was due to racing!

Odd... he's a piebald sporthorse don't see many of those on the racetrack.. who was used for hunting and eventing. Whats that? It wasn't a racing person who abused him? Imagine that, bad people in eventing? Shock horror. There is good and bad in EVERY sport. Don't paint everybody with the same brush. You look for the worst, you will find the worst. 

At the end of the day, that horse is that video is obviously uncomfortable and not right. If that were a 10 year old in the video, it wouldnt be sound. If it was 20 it wouldn't be sound. How much that lameness has to do with the age I don't know - I'm not a vet. Lets all just hope it gets looked at and taken care of.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

chaseranya said:


> I just seen your from raceland, La. You must race, and not barrels. So I deffinatly ubderstand where your at. Enough said.


Your post makes no sense....LOL.


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## chaseranya (Jan 6, 2012)

Thanks Kiwi girl,


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

kiwigirl said:


> Cool thread - nice and feisty!
> 
> Here is my two cents worth. There are people out there who will break in two year olds their entire training career and none of those horses will come to any harm. There are ham fisted wanker trainers, who regardless of a horses age will manage to create problems. Methods matter as much as age.
> 
> ...


That's because racing is a BUSINESS. Hate it or love it...it is a BUSINESS. You could pretty much say the same thing about any large business chain; like McDonalds or Mobil Oil. They really don't care about their employees or what happens to them. They are just a "means to the end", to make money. Now, not ALL race horse owners are like that, some truly do care. I own an interest in a race horse down in New Jersey, and you betcha I care about that horse. But it's still a business, horse racing. Do I like it that there are uncaring owners in the sport and unscrupulous trainers? No I dont. But you know what, you find those SAME type of people in barrel racing, in cutting, in Dressage, in the hunter/jumper world etc.....do I need to remind everyone of the scandal that happened YEARS ago in H/J? Horses being killed for insurance money? I worked for Marion Hulick who went TO JAIL for her hand in that whole thing. Those people are EVERYWHERE in the horse industry.

So don't just look at racing because THAT horse business is not the ONLY one to point a finger at.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

On that "bad people" note, last year at a local reining show there was a girl at a ranch who was sponsoring the entire award ceremony and putting forth all the prizes (Buckles & saddles. Big stuff)

Well in the warmup pen she was spurring her horses sides bloody, smacking him with the reins to the point where marks and hair were missing form the horses rump and neck.

When a friend of mine complained to the comittee, they said they didn't want to do anything about it because she was putting forth the money for all the shows. And when she went to show her horse, the poor animal was literally dripping sweat from his nose and blood from his sides. I had to look away. Now here's what really ****ed me off, *she won back the saddle she donated.*

Proof there are bad people everywhere.


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## chaseranya (Jan 6, 2012)

I'm liking what you all are saying. So really should 2 year olds be riddin? My oppinion, No. Does it happen, yes all the time. Who's right? No one. I belive if you want that horse to have a long career you should not. I do believe that starting that young COULD rise lamness issues.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Could not see the video as it is privet. However I do not have a problem with starting a 2yo. I can not say if what was going on in this video was done correctly or not as I could not see it. Starting them at 2 and doing it correclty and slowly will at the end help the horse. I see more people starting a horse at 3 or 4 or even older then think b/c they are older they can push the horse harder and faster. It makes no differenace. They still need the same foundation and putting that foundation on them at 2 is not bad. Working a 2yo as though they are a finished horse is.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Since this thread is focused on 2 year old riding it's the most well known TB racing that is being addressed.
By no means do I think all racing is bad. In the competition Endurance races that I'm familiar with age is restricted to 5 year olds and older (measured by horse being 60+ months old, not from 1 Jan of the year it was born as with TB flat track racing). I've heard the some limited distances allow 4 year olds. Hopefully they don't get pushed hard for the sake of their back. At 5 years a horse is viewed as being physically mature.
That means the riders have had time to pony up, train and condition these horses without pushing them to win anything. Someone had to bare the expense of keeping, feeding, training and taking care of these horses for years while the horse finished growing. They have to train in a physically sound manner, because these horses will have to be as fit as a marathon runner. They can't afford to have undue stress put on undeveloped joints, because it could have a negative effect when they start racing years later as a mature horse.
So there are races that do take the maturity of the horses body into account. These same races have break downs too, since they are such long distances, just as people can break down when running long distances. But they have regular vet checks along the course with manditory resting time periods and a horse will be pulled for any thing that fails to pass the inspection (e.g. heart beat doesn't return to resting rate fast enough). And there are riders who are more interested in getting the the award for finishing with their horse in the best condition, so coming in first isn't their focus. There are riders who's horse might have passed the vet check and are medically sound, but feel that "something" isn't right and will pull themself out. For a great many just finishing the race is "winning". Much like people who run a marathon.

Let's not paint all racing with the same brush, since it's not all 2 year old racing.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^and this is exactly what I meant, and what ticks me off. The "win at all costs" attitude. Its rampant throughout the WHOLE horse industry and the people that condone it because of a sponsorship or whatever, are as equally guilty.


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## farley (May 23, 2010)

I started my filly at seventeen months. I did light riding, for two months then only got one her once or twice a month till she was two. After that I bumped up her training. Today she is two years eight months and some days and I can put anyone on her. I had her sitting since about the first of Nov. on ten acres with four other horses till I got on her today bareback with a halter an lead and ponied one of my geldings back to my house. If you start early with out pushing them too hard you will a great horse forever, because they have had no time to learn otherwise. 
However I will say I agree you should never over push your baby.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Good Lord, that video with the Seattle Slew grandbaby made me sick. I don't think a horse video has ever disturbed me that much.

Anyway.

I bought Sun as a long yearling. I lied on her back once around that time period.

When she was two, I sat on her a couple times and there were two occasions that we walked a circle with someone leading. That was it.

At three and a half she was professionally trained to walk/trot, and now at almost four she's learning to canter.

So far it's working for me and Sunny.

I have zero issues with someone starting a 2 YO, so long as it's lightly and carefully.
But a yearling? I just can't seem to wrap my head around that one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lucille16 (Jan 25, 2012)

I hate seeing babies put into work so early. Regardless of their size, ability to carry weight, I don't think any horse should be started before 3, and even then just backed and turned away till they're 4. Most horses don't finish growing until they're atleast 5, depending on breed. In my opinion they have many years of riding ahead of them, the first few are for them to just learn to be a horse and be out playing with other youngsters.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

GotaDunQH said:


> ^and this is exactly what I meant, and what ticks me off. The "win at all costs" attitude. Its rampant throughout the WHOLE horse industry and the people that condone it because of a sponsorship or whatever, are as equally guilty.


Yes I would have to agree with this, I commented on the TB racing industry because that is what I have had personal experience with. ANY business that revolves around animals is going to be subject to dollar matters as opposed to individual animal welfare. A really good example was a thread on this forum about halter bred QH's, what has happened to the confirmation of some of those animals through careful and deliberate breeding is absolutely appalling. The idea is to win championships at any cost, thereby making a bloodline money worthy. This is a different example of rampant exploitation of animals for money - so that we are not bashing one faction of the professional horse community.

Also as another person said the racing industry naturally came under scrutiny on this thread because the subject is about riding two year olds. We are discussing whether or not starting a two year old will have detrimental long term effects, the answer is probably if the horse is put under huge amounts of physical stress very quickly and maybe not if they are broken in then brought on with very light work over time. However this is a moot point when it comes to the racing industry because we aren't talking about starting a two year old, we are talking about hard core racing. So while I am ambivalent about starting a two year old general purpose horse, again methods matter as much as age. But when it comes to racing two year old's it just seems so wrong.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

kiwigirl said:


> Yes I would have to agree with this, I commented on the TB racing industry because that is what I have had personal experience with. ANY business that revolves around animals is going to be subject to dollar matters as opposed to individual animal welfare. A really good example was a thread on this forum about halter bred QH's, what has happened to the confirmation of some of those animals through careful and deliberate breeding is absolutely appalling. The idea is to win championships at any cost, thereby making a bloodline money worthy. This is a different example of rampant exploitation of animals for money - so that we are not bashing one faction of the professional horse community.
> 
> Also as another person said the racing industry naturally came under scrutiny on this thread because the subject is about riding two year olds. We are discussing whether or not starting a two year old will have detrimental long term effects, the answer is probably if the horse is put under huge amounts of physical stress very quickly and maybe not if they are broken in then brought on with very light work over time. However this is a moot point when it comes to the racing industry because we aren't talking about starting a two year old, we are talking about hard core racing. So while I am ambivalent about starting a two year old general purpose horse, again methods matter as much as age. But when it comes to racing two year old's it just seems so wrong.


This was the point I was basically trying to make as well...however you are more articulate than me..lol..

I was not singling out racing because I am not educated enough to use it as an example. I used ranch horses versus futurity horses, I have seen horses started as 5 yr. olds been turned out at fifteen due to overuse and horses started as 2 yrs. olds go on to lead full careers and then pack kiddos around.._.it is all in how they are used!
_

nrhareiner said something as well... people push a 4 or 5 yr. old hard because they think they can handle it because they are "grown". Then they end up still blowing him up, mentally or physically.


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## lilbit11011 (Apr 15, 2010)

Hate to say it....but around me there are constantly ads for horses age 1 1/2 to 3 being advertised as "completely broke", "trail ridden", "great for the kids", ect. that points to several people starting horses WAY too young. 
But, it may be BS as I have never seen them in person.


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

kiwigirl said:


> Yes I would have to agree with this, I commented on the TB racing industry because that is what I have had personal experience with. ANY business that revolves around animals is going to be subject to dollar matters as opposed to individual animal welfare. A really good example was a thread on this forum about halter bred QH's, what has happened to the confirmation of some of those animals through careful and deliberate breeding is absolutely appalling. The idea is to win championships at any cost, thereby making a bloodline money worthy. This is a different example of rampant exploitation of animals for money - so that we are not bashing one faction of the professional horse community.
> 
> Also as another person said the racing industry naturally came under scrutiny on this thread because the subject is about riding two year olds. We are discussing whether or not starting a two year old will have detrimental long term effects, the answer is probably if the horse is put under huge amounts of physical stress very quickly and maybe not if they are broken in then brought on with very light work over time. However this is a moot point when it comes to the racing industry because we aren't talking about starting a two year old, we are talking about hard core racing. So while I am ambivalent about starting a two year old general purpose horse, again methods matter as much as age. But when it comes to racing two year old's it just seems so wrong.


I never said that racing was perfect, infact I'm fairly certain that I said it has it's faults. I also don't think people have to agree with racing, don't like it - don't watch it. All owners of competition horses want results - from show jumping owners down to mini owners. If those horses are competing, results are required. 

My point was directed at those who claim we don't care about our horses. Every single person I have dealt with in racing, which I have been a part of for about 15 years, has cared for the horses. We don't happen into it because we love racing, it all starts off with an inital love for the animal. Would I change things? heck yes! Would it be great if they waited another year? You bet it would. Is it going to happen? Not in this lifetime or the next. 

As somebody else already said - no legs no horse. A significant portion of horses breaking down won't have good legs. Foals should be looked at by a farrier within a few days being born and if their legs are not right they should be seen to from about 6 weeks old. When I worked at a TB stud we had our foals looked at every 6 weeks by a master farrier. If the breeder isn't taking care of these youngsters, and minding their legs from a young age, there isn't going to be much hope for an injury free career. 

If all the worst experiences you have ever had were at racing yards, I'm shocked,but time and time again we've said there are bad eggs and good eggs. In my personal experience I have seen far worse happen at hunting yards and a warmblood stud I worked compared to what I have ever seen at the racing yards I work in. Which brings up another point - I have seen quite a few warmblood studs loose jump their foals, yearlings, youngsters over jumps to show it's potential when it is for sale - surely that is damaging to their joints is it not?


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Free-jumping youngstock is exactly why I won't buy any horse sold with free-jumping photos. Far as I'm concerned, before it's old enough to be jumped under saddle, its bloodlines and conformation, and siblings, should be left to do the talking.

That being said my riding horse isn't particularly well put-together for his discipline but he competed from a young age (was competing age 4 which is the minimum age for an eventer so was clearly jumping before then) and he's 16 now and totally sound. I've had him for nearly a year so I was definitely not the one who started him out!

...he DOES have arab blood and they are very tough, combined with the fast-maturing TB blood.

By choice, I wouldn't be jumping a horse before age 4, and not above 18 inches before age 5. Depending on how mature the individual is, I would start anywhere from 24 months to 4 years - ponies often are started younger than bigger horses because they tend to reach full height sooner and people think once it's not getting any bigger it's mature enough to ride.

I had a friend whose mother has a PercheronxHolsteinerxCleveland Bay, and he was doing piaffe and passage at age 3! He was also a confirmed bucker. Change of ownership to current owners (friend) and back to the basics, with a properly fitted saddle... shock horror, no more bucking. This was dressage. I've seen horrible stuff in jumpers (3yo jumping 3'6" for sale in my area 6 months ago!) and the "young horse" competitions at national level are ALL 3'6" or bigger. EA D grade is 105cm-115cm and that's where all the big showjumpers start their young horses at 4 and 5! Many of them are "too good" for non-graded competition.

I don't agree with starting them so young whether it's for racing or for anything else. I don't have a problem with racing itself... just how commercial it has become and as a result, how much TOO young the horses are started.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Like racing, jumping on undeveloped bones and joints is damaging.

If we go back several hundred years racing, jumping, and most things done with light riding horses were very different.

Races run by grown horse over greater distances. Jumping was much the same (grown horses).

Technically this thread is about riding at 2 years old, and in the TB racing industry they have to start being ridden before 2 years of age. Otherwise they won't be ready to race at 2 (or how ever many months they actually are from 1 Jan of the year they were born which almost always less then 24)

I guess the thing to look for is how many of these owners keep their horses that they love so much if the horse doesn't bring in any money before it's 4? How many of them keep the horses that break down because their still developing legs (or less commonly, backs) fail and they break down?
How many keep their horses if these horses are not paying for themself, but are just costing them money? (and everyone who owns a horse knows it's an expensive love affair).

Not saying that we couldn't find some owner who actually does that. They would be an extremely rare person (and an extremely wealthy person too). Personally, I can't think of anyone in the industry that has kept their losers around out of the love they have for these horses who couldn't earn their keep (I've just never known or heard of any).

I've known the same to be true of working horses who were getting old. The owners needed working horse (cattle in this case) and while they might keep a favorite horse around after it was getting long in the tooth (e.g. 22+ years) because they loved it, when most of their horses got to old they would pass them on to someone who just wanted a horse they do some easy riding on. It could be said that these working horses were loved too, since they were cared for and not abused (and in my experience not ridden before at least 3 or older), but at the end of the day a horse is expensive to keep and in the business world you cut your expenses or lose money. The TB that races is what the owners hope will be the money making part of a business. It's cared for and worried about for as long as it has that potential. If it fails to deliver than like any part of a business that costs more than it can bring in it is gotten rid of. I guess we could say they get fired or let go. They are no longer provided the care an attention from the owners, who need to focus their resources on other horses that they feel might be a better risk and make a profit. The losing horses, broken down horses, horses that couldn't continue to, or never, did make a profit (most under 5, so still not fully mature yet) are moved out to make room for the next hopefuls. Who, like those they replaced, will be ridden too young, raced to early, and replaced if needed. That's why in the US alone the turn over rate is about 5,000 horses a year.

But I would love to meet some of these loving, TB racing owners in the 2 year old TB racing industry that have all these losing and broken down horses that they are continuing to take good care of because they love them so much. While I still won't agree with racing and training to race a horse that is still underdeveloped and not yet mature, I'll at least give them credit for caring a bit more about their animals and not moving them on to whatever awaits them at someone elses expense.


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## timingline (Feb 3, 2012)

It's funny because I just posted a thread about this very topic before I noticed this one. I ran into some issues with my equine massage therapist regarding my little mare, and at what age she should have been started. 

I totally agree, horses under 2 are babies, it would be like sending a 5 year old to the gym. It doesn't make sense.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

lilbit11011 said:


> Hate to say it....but around me there are constantly ads for horses age 1 1/2 to 3 being advertised as "completely broke", "trail ridden", "great for the kids", ect. that points to several people starting horses WAY too young.
> But, it may be BS as I have never seen them in person.


 
I am calling BS for several reasons. Regarless when they are started at that age there is no way for them to be completly finished horses. Heck I have reiners and even started at 2 I would not consider then finished even at 5 or 6. Yes they may be well trained and well broke and you can go out and win on them but I still do not consider then finished.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

timingline,i believe that you can send a 5yr old to the gym,it just depends on what you expect him to do and what he is capable of doing.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

There was an article in Florida Sporthorse where, if I recall, the owner of the horse in the center spread was talking about the horse and said something like, "I saw his ad that said he was already jumping 3'6 as a three year old! I was so impressed and had to have him!"

Pukevomitpurge.

And he was a gelding, so no testing involved that would have pushed to owners to jump the baby at 3.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## timingline (Feb 3, 2012)

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant sending a 5 year old to the gym to lift weights. You get the gist.

My mistake.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

timingline said:


> Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant sending a 5 year old to the gym to lift weights. You get the gist.
> 
> My mistake.


Again - within their ability. 

Horses develop at different rates physically and mentally.


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## timingline (Feb 3, 2012)

Yes, agreed.


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

its lbs not miles said:


> But I would love to meet some of these loving, TB racing owners in the 2 year old TB racing industry that have all these losing and broken down horses that they are continuing to take good care of because they love them so much. While I still won't agree with racing and training to race a horse that is still underdeveloped and not yet mature, I'll at least give them credit for caring a bit more about their animals and not moving them on to whatever awaits them at someone elses expense.


Just incase you think it, I'm not singling you out.. but.. 

This is Supreme, I bought him off a man who could no longer keep him due to illness - same home since he was a two year old, ran on the flat, over jumps and point to point. obviously well retired at the time of this photo. When the man was given the all clear, he asked for the horse back. 









At work we have a 24 year old and an 18 year old.. obviously retired old boys who will be there until the day they die. At my old job we've got Oscar, he was broke at 4 and fell in a chase - fractured his pelvis. Hes sound again and enjoys his gallops infront of the youngsters. Same home since the day he was born. Where I keep my horse we have Sally, a 15 year old OTTB, owned and trained by the same man, still owned by the same man. My friend has Riley, never made it to the track due to ringbone - he is 3yo and a companion for another horse. We also have Birdie, lovely and sweet also didnt have the ability to run more than 3 times, she was used for hacking and babysitting the weaned foals for a few years before the young girl down the road asked to buy her. 

At work we've just let 6 youngsters off to grass, too immature. Any problems from owners? None what so ever. When you think about it, if people are willing to fork out 20k for a horse, spend 3k on training fees a month, ect - the 200 they are going to spend on grass fees in a month really isnt a big deal. 

I'm not saying that there arent prats who wont take the time to see to these horses, not by a long shot. But if you want to give credit where credit is due, I know plenty of people you'd need to speak to.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

its lbs not miles said:


> But I would love to meet some of these loving, TB racing owners in the 2 year old TB racing industry that have all these losing and broken down horses that they are continuing to take good care of because they love them so much. While I still won't agree with racing and training to race a horse that is still underdeveloped and not yet mature, I'll at least give them credit for caring a bit more about their animals and not moving them on to whatever awaits them at someone elses expense.


But just think about all those retired race horses that have gone onto to successful and happy lives in the non-racing world! Sure, the race horse owners didn't need them anymore, but someone else sure did when you look at the SHEER NUMBER of OTTB's leading lives OUTSIDE of racing with new owners. I mean, how many people on this forum ALONE own OTTB's?? Quite a few.....


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## sporthorsegirl (Jun 3, 2011)

I agree. I don't think any horse should be started before three years.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I have a big problem with people who say you should not start before a certain age and that starting at 2 is so wrong. It comes down to much more then age. I have started a lot of horses at 2 and know of 1000's more horses started at 2. I also know of horses started at 3,4 and older. At the end of the day when done correctly the ones started at 2 where no worse off and a lot of times better then the ones started as older horses.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^excellent post. A person can not make blanket statements that cover EVERY horse. Horses are individuals and should be treated as such. There is NO rule book in the horse industry that says...one size fits all. If you FOLLOW that thinking, you are doing an injustice to the horse as an individual. They aren't cookie cutter....they are SO FAR from it.

To all the people that have a hardfast rule concerning starting at 2 or even 3, I know SO SO many horses that have blown your theory out of the water, that horses that young are doomed to be washed up and crippled. It's because COMMONSENSE was used.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Maple said:


> Just incase you think it, I'm not singling you out.. but..
> 
> This is Supreme, I bought him off a man who could no longer keep him due to illness - same home since he was a two year old, ran on the flat, over jumps and point to point. obviously well retired at the time of this photo. When the man was given the all clear, he asked for the horse back.
> 
> ...


Well it's great that in Ireland you have people who keep horses that don't do well. Not that it makes running them young ok, but at least they aren't moved out of the way. Obviously someone there is willing to keep shelling out on horses that aren't going to bring in a dime.
I've yet to see that in the 2 year old TB racing industry in the US. Yes, I single out the 2 year old TB racing industry, because it's the one that suffers the highest injury rate, goes through the most horses and bases the date of birth on 1 Jan of the year a horse is born. So they are riding, traingin and racing them before they reach 24 months i most cases (and when you take into account how long it takes to get a horse ready to race you can imagine the age that some of these horses are started at). Whle the owners are partly to blame, the fact is that they are forced to do it if they want to compete in the big races because of the limits set by the industry. However, if all the owners refused to enter, they could change the rules. Too much money involved for that, so it will never happen.

At one time (Long, long ago in galaxy far far away) horses were raced at a mature age. Ran 3 and 4 miles races (maybe longer at times), because a 6+ year old is stronger AND faster than a 2 or 3 year old. They were strong, sturdy animals. Not the light boned, more frigile horses that selecting breeding has produced in it's efforts to create light fast horses (another thing that has contributed to the high breakdown rate amoung TB). But racing was the sport of the nobility then (and even they would dispose of a losing horse if some friend or family member didn't want it).


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

GotaDunQH said:


> But just think about all those retired race horses that have gone onto to successful and happy lives in the non-racing world! Sure, the race horse owners didn't need them anymore, but someone else sure did when you look at the SHEER NUMBER of OTTB's leading lives OUTSIDE of racing with new owners. I mean, how many people on this forum ALONE own OTTB's?? Quite a few.....


And just think about all the ones who's injuries from racing too young have ended they life or left them to deal with pains that will plague them the rest of their life.

I know a young girl who owns a lovely little OTTB, and I feel for it every time I see her (the mare). But she is loved an doted over. While she will suffer some from the effects for the rest of her life, and hopefully will eventually overcome some of mental effects of her racing life (she's been 4 years out of racing, so I remain hopeful) she does at least have a life far better than what she left. The pitty is that she ever had to go through it.

Think of the abused child who is finally put into a good home with loving parents who do the job right. It's wonderful that the child is finally in a good home. But why did they have to suffer first?

If children were subjected, by comparison, to something equal to what we put horses in the 2 year old TB racing industry through, there would be such a scandal and people would be going to prison.


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## Zada2011 (Mar 16, 2010)

Ok I've read just about every page of this debate and the thing is that horses are ready for light riding at different ages. We've broken many horses when they around two years of age, however we make sure that their knees are fused and we do not ride them hard. Different breeds mature at different rates, and some need another year or two for their knees to be ready for a rider to be on them. 

However if their knees are ready, light riding to establish a good foundation for them in later years will not permanently cripple them. In fact I've found that our two year olds were a bit more responsive to the training mentally than some of the old horses we've had to train. To me its always seemed that introducing a horse to thing at a younger age makes them more mentally accepting of it. I'm not sure if it's the same for everyone but that's what we've found.

However I do not condone riding a yearling by any means. A horse that is not ready physically should not be ridden by anyone. We once saw a very heavy woman riding a horse we knew was only a year or so and were appalled. That and I think that within the first year or two of a horse's knees fusing that the riding should be generally light, and that hard physical strains should not be placed on the horse until they are much more mature. I do not approve of the hard horse racing, jumping, slides, and various other things that should only be done with a fully mature animal.


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## HarleyWood (Oct 14, 2011)

people in cutting and roping start early around 2 it helps fuse the joints faster but only if hes started slow and not pushed into it all fast. i guess that i like tall horses so i like 2 and a half year old to 3 year olds so they grow more. but i guess its all to whos training and what they think is right.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

HarleyWood said:


> people in cutting and roping start early around 2 it helps fuse the joints faster but only if hes started slow and not pushed into it all fast. i guess that i like tall horses so i like 2 and a half year old to 3 year olds so they grow more. but i guess its all to whos training and what they think is right.


I think you better check your science.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

HarleyWood said:


> people in cutting and roping start early around 2 it helps fuse the joints faster but only if hes started slow and not pushed into it all fast. i guess that i like tall horses so i like 2 and a half year old to 3 year olds so they grow more. but i guess its all to whos training and what they think is right.


All equines legs mature at roughly the same rate (give or take a couple months), with colts sometimes taking up to 6 months longer than a filly. There's strong medical evidence that forced excersizing which is not over done (like ponying, not riding) starting at a very young age can reduce the chance of OCD (more common for TB, but possible with any breed) and may help stretch out ligaments better for when they are older. Might not be needed if the foals are in VERY large pasture with a LOT of room to run on it's own, but for most that's not the case, so exersizing them becomes the recommendation. In either case the last (upper most) weight bearing joints of equine legs (e.g. top of humerous and bottom of the scapula for front legs) don't finish firming up until around 3-3.5 years. Knees are usually finishing up at around1.5 - 2 years. Vertibrae have a more varied rate of completion. If memory serves me most finish between 4.5 - 5 years (I remember 5 years being the magic number for most) but some go longer before the base of the neck (the last bones to finish) are done. Some horses or breeds that have longer necks can take much longer before the base of the neck finishes. How much longer I've heard and read different rates at.


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