# What do you call this color?



## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

i'm going to say liver chestnut, because his mane and tail are not all blonde. i've known livers to have ombre. cool blue eye!!!


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

The chocolate palominos and taffy are technically silver dapple (black + silver). I'm just guessing but I think maybe your pony is black that easily sun fades because it looks like his mane starts out dark and then gets sun bleached. He looks about the same coloring as 2 of my minis who are technically black but mostly look milk chocolate except under their manes where the sun never reaches. My other mini is actually a silver dapple. One way you would be able to tell is to shave off some of his body hair and if he's still dark he's black, if he's silver with black dapples then he got the silver gene.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Looks like he got his coloring from the Rocky Mountain side. I think they call that seal brown.


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## Banjo4blue (Feb 12, 2018)

JCnGrace said:


> The chocolate palominos and taffy are technically silver dapple (black + silver). I'm just guessing but I think maybe your pony is black that easily sun fades because it looks like his mane starts out dark and then gets sun bleached. He looks about the same coloring as 2 of my minis who are technically black but mostly look milk chocolate except under their manes where the sun never reaches. My other mini is actually a silver dapple. One way you would be able to tell is to shave off some of his body hair and if he's still dark he's black, if he's silver with black dapples then he got the silver gene.


He's definitely not black. He is very chocolate brown all over his body, and you if you look at his legs you will see his legs are almost silver. He is silver at the base of his hair and his nose as well. Rocky mountain horses often have ombre manes and it's not sun bleach. Besides, I live in Washington state, USA, very rainy and grey, so it would be really hard for a horse here to get bleached by sun. But thanks!


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## Banjo4blue (Feb 12, 2018)

DancingArabian said:


> Looks like he got his coloring from the Rocky Mountain side. I think they call that seal brown.


Definitely got the rocky mountain color! But seal brown is a something else, so I don't think thats the right term.

this is a seal brown picture I found:


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## Banjo4blue (Feb 12, 2018)

thecolorcoal said:


> i'm going to say liver chestnut, because his mane and tail are not all blonde. i've known livers to have ombre. cool blue eye!!!



Hmm.. This is interesting. The first photo is liver chestnut that looks similar to my guy, but note how the mane isn't an ombre like mine's. However, looking at pictures of rocky mountains, no matter whether they're silver dapples, chocolate palomino's, or liver chestnuts, a lot of them had ombre manes and tails, like the second photo.
So what have we learned? I'm more confused than I thought! He could be a silver dapple, a liver chestnut, or a chocolate palomino. They all can look very similar!


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

I would call him a silver dapple, as his colour comes from the Rocky Mountain side.

Seal brown is a horse that is nearly black, or very black looking in the winter and fades a bit in the summer.

Summer look:


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

This is a chocolate palomino. eeCrcr the dark comes from sooty. Your guy could well be Silver Dapple as it is more common in the RM. Silver Dapple is also known as Taffy. Calling a SD chocolate palomino is a misnomer. The Silver Dapple (Z) gene is a dilution gene that affects the black base (EE or Ee). It will typically dilute a black mane and tail to flaxen, and a black body to a shade of brown or chocolate.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I'd wonder where the blue eyes come from. SD eyes are usually dark.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

So, please alleviate my ignorance here . . .

Three coat colors which are all chocolately brown with a silvery mane and tail but have different genetic origins would be:

1."Silver Dapple" which is black with a silver dilute gene.
2. "Liver Chestnut" which is red (Chestnut) expressed at maximum darkness
3. "Chocolate Palomino" which is red (Chestnut) with a cream dilute gene, expressed at maximum darkness.

Is this correct?

I know Seal Brown, also called Brown, and can mimic true Black, is genetically a maximally dark Bay. Mane, tail, and legs are black, not silvery or reddish at all. Nor is Palomino a common color in Welsh Ponies.

I am another vote for Silver Dapple, because it is a selected-for signature color in RMHs, and the others are not.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

This is a good discussion of the Silver Dilute gene. I don't know why they call it Silver Dapple as the dapples may not be present at all.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Banjo4blue said:


> He's definitely not black. He is very chocolate brown all over his body, and you if you look at his legs you will see his legs are almost silver. He is silver at the base of his hair and his nose as well. Rocky mountain horses often have ombre manes and it's not sun bleach. Besides, I live in Washington state, USA, very rainy and grey, so it would be really hard for a horse here to get bleached by sun. But thanks!


He IS black though. The silver gene works by lightening black hair, the darker the hair the lighter it gets (other genes don't touch black hair, this is the only one!). The mane and tail tend to lighten more than the body, some horses look black with a white mane and tail others look an "off" brown like yours with a tan mane and tail. (I do agree your boy is not a regular black though) He's a different version of this 









It's a weird gene, yes. Rockies are the breed it's most often associated with.

He is black with the silver gene E/? a/a Z/?. If you want to be sure you can test for silver. I wouldn't bother to test for black because if he IS silver which I bet he is then there's no way he's anything but black based.

Chocolate palomino/taffy are different terms for the same thing. I prefer silver dapple because it's the most accurate (chocolate palomino for ex makes him sound like a palomino which he is not, see the example of an actual chocolate palomino). Black silver would be the most accurate. Here's a bay silver to compare (see above paragraph too)







I'm picking extreme examples, but note how the points (legs primarily) are lightened from black to a silvery brown? It's not just the mane. That's what's happening with your ponies body which is why it doesn't appear black. Not all horses are so extreme, I think your horse is a perfectly classic example of the color.

Things like seal brown or flaxen aren't accurate here. He COULD be a dark liver with flaxen... BUT he's not lol. His shading isn't right and his ancestry makes silver very likely. But liver (very dark chestnut) with flaxen would be the only other thing to match. Silver is the only thing that will lighten black hair so he can't be say a bay with flaxen. It's either liver or silver. And I'm absolutely going with silver. Like I said it is testable.

Here's one that looks just like him:









http://www.horse-genetics.com/silver-dapple.html


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Avna said:


> So, please alleviate my ignorance here . . .
> 
> Three coat colors which are all chocolately brown with a silvery mane and tail but have different genetic origins would be:
> 
> ...


Yes, but to add- liver being a dark chestnut will not have a light mane and tail unless the horse also has flaxen. Which can be seen on a "normal" chestnut too of course but is extra stunning on a liver. (Flaxen only effects the mane and tail and only shows on red/chestnut horses)


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Yogiwick said:


> Yes, but to add- liver being a dark chestnut will not have a light mane and tail unless the horse also has flaxen. Which can be seen on a "normal" chestnut too of course but is extra stunning on a liver. (Flaxen only effects the mane and tail and only shows on red/chestnut horses)


Is there a 'flaxen' gene?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Avna said:


> Is there a 'flaxen' gene?


Yes. It's recessive and only effects red so any "flaxen" on black is silver. Palomino can look a lot like flaxen chestnut but the body shade is usually different.

I didn't think there was a test and went to check (there is not) and got this for the OP: https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/horse/silver.php

Honestly pretty much everything is genetic. There is likely a gene that creates liver vs regular chestnut but we have very limited knowledge of any "shade" genetics, just know there must be something there!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaxen_gene

So back to your 3 colors to write it out... All 3 can look alike in phenotype but genotype would be

(black silver) E/? a/a Z/?

(liver chestnut) e/e f/f

(palomino) e/e Cr/cr

Different genes doing different things. And of course remember a horse can have MULTIPLE random genes.

I like this website because it spells it out with pictures Equine Color Genetics

and another with cool pics
Morgan Colors- Your Information Station for Morgan Color Genetics and Color History


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