# Punishment and Accountability



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi All!

I am cross-posting this from the tail end of another thread; thought it might make for some interesting discussion.

QUOTE=Hondo;7357266]This thread is about done I think, but one thing has been lingering around in the back of my mind that I have not seen mentioned about punishment, although a little off topic perhaps.

In human terms, there often seem to be, or so I am to think, a certain amount of resentment often associated with punishment. Even when it is so called deserved. The perception seems to often be, "You were mean to me on purpose and I resent you for that. Today and tomorrow." Don't know if horses do that but from my reading it sure seems that mules do.

So I just dunno. I am seriously wrestling with this notion of punishment. I mean, do I punish a good friend? A lover? I mean, it seems that when it is discovered that rote behavior modification protocols are being applied there can be substantial blowback. (couldn't think of another term)

Heart to heart may seem or sound sort of melancholy and silly but really, I think it may be important. Sure people know, but if horses really do know us better than we know ourselves, then they may be able to read heart to heart better than we suspect. Body language, facial expressions, the way we are walking. I really think they know more than we think.

I admit, I have done acts that would qualify for punishment of Hondo, and I cringe and repent for every second of it. I'm getting better.

So, is there any reason for your horse to resent you for anything you have done?

Just something to think about..............[/QUOTE]

QUOTE=loosie;7358010]There's punishment & there's punishment I reckon. As mentioned I think punishment often comes with a lot of hassles - other associations get in the way. For many reasons I avoid punishment in training as a rule. Not afraid to use it tho, when I see fit, but that is seldom & I generally think there are far better ways, with less 'side effects', including the 'resentment' you mention. I also think punishment is usually not all that effective unless in conjunction with reinforcement. 

I think it depends how & when it's done - setting the horse up to punish _himself_ *as* he does a behaviour is better understood and less likely to lead to 'resentment'. I think the *motivation* behind the behaviour is also vital to consider too, as who's to say your punishment isn't seen as a dominance game, if that's what's on his mind, or that what you punish him for may have been in fear or self defense... then I don't think punishment is helpful or warranted, and resentment, fear & mistrust can easily come out of it.

Also 'punishment' tends to come with a lot of mental baggage for us, the iron glove & all. Leaving behind ideas of showing anger, 'deserving punishment' for 'naughty' behaviour... but strictly speaking, it is any undesirable consequence to an action. If we think of punishment strictly behaviourist fashion, applying as little as possible but as much as necessary, ensuring there is complete release when the animal ceases the 'wrong' behaviour, I think it can be used fairly and effectively. And yes, I do punish my kids too. Seldomly, but I do do it. I reckon as humans, they cope OK with a fair bit more than a '3 second rule' by the way too ;-)[/QUOTE]

Punishment. Another one of those "human" words, and one I'm not sure has an equivalent in "Equus". About the nearest thing I have come across is a description of how the alpha mare will segregate an unruly brat/foal from The Herd until he learns some manners. The Butt, applied over an extended time  Most everything else falls under the broad heading of language; ears are pinned, a well timed nip is applied, the offending individual moves, often with a parting "screw-you" mock kick, and it's over.

Punishment implies accountability. Accountability implies a level of sentience I'm not sure can be granted to most equine, dogs, cats, and at least some humans. I tried to corner a friend who attempts to teach Equus and equine-human relationship into a discussion of equine accountability, but she was unusually noncommital  Might be a great topic for another thread.

I have certainly had plenty of opportunities to "pin my ears" at George, and we've had some pretty good arguments, some of which I have even won. I do not think he harbors resentment, but he doesn't forget, either, and the next time a similar situation arises, he is more than willing to pick up right where we left off. I guess I see this with my horse as well, but he is generally way more compliant than MuleBoy, and lets me have my way rather than argue for the most part.

Just saw Loosies post pop up. This does deserve another thread. How 'bout we start by defining Punishment? I'll crosspost this over into horse training. Steve


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I believe from what I have read, mules are in a category of their own! 

As for horses, I like to set them up if they are showing signs of say kicking. 

Most young horses will try bossing a human at one point or another and corrections should be instant, firm and fair. 
One foal, still on his dam was blocking the door as he ate his feed, I knew from the way he looked at me as I walked to the doorway, which had a chain across it, that he was going to 'boss' me. I had a bucket of water in one hand and a skip and prong in the other. I just turned the fork handle so it was in front of me. Sure enough the little toad lifted his back leg to kick me. Before he could do more than lift his leg and bring it forward, I had poked him very firmly in the flank. 
He jumped and hod beside his mother. I filled the water manger, lifted the poop and walked out.
He resumed eating his feed so I walked to the door and he immediately moved his butt over to give me room. 

That is what I mean for setting them up.

What I have found is that any animal, dog, horse or human will accept punishment of it is deserved, it is when it is badly timed or wrong that earns resentment.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

horses don't understand loud screaming anger , holding of grudges, but they understand fair punishment and consistent expectations
Since we have been using examples of how horses interact with each other, and a lot of our training is based in that 'language of communication., I will continue to allude to it. We all have also heard of the three second rule.
A lower down horse makes the mistake of kicking at a more dominant horse.
That dominant horse reacts instantly, leaving no doubt that he is alpha.
No grudge is left between either horse, as one can often then see them grazing side by side.
In other words, if a horse tries to run over you, kick or bite you, apply immediate punishment, strong enough to get the message across, then act like nothing happened Horses respect and understand that
Stallions in particular, resent just being picked at,over and over again-instead, correct them hard, then go on as if nothing happened
Ever see how a dominate horse , who has made his position clear, seldom after that , needs to do any more than give a 'look' or flick an ear
Horses don't get 'grey', but rather black and white boundaries.
For instance, a rider often allows his horse , during a ride, when that rider is distracted, to decide on his own to grab some mouthfuls of grass. Next time out, he suddenly remembers that maybe he should correct his horse. That kind of inconsistency can make a horse resentful


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think a punishment only works if it has been preceded by a warning, and the "crime" that you are punishing is disciplined, always.



If you suddenly whale on a horse for doing something wrong, and think "ok, that ought to get him to think first before trying that again", assuming all is clear, you depend on the horse to respect the punishment and not do it again, but then little by little you start allowing the behavior to creep back in to the point where you then get mad and suddenly whale on him again, THAT can sure cause resentmemt. 

ask me how I know? it's one of my own biggest faults as a handler.


----------



## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

I like to think more in terms of consequence rather than punishment. It gives my thought process shades of justice ,fairness, instead of harshness or vindictivenes and hopefully it transfers to my responses and behavior. 

A poor example but the other day I was long lining Sonny and when I asked for a halt he put his head down very low and proceeded to drag me toward the grass. I was a few feetbehind him but it only took me a couple of steps before I could get myself in a "power stance" ,drop the far rope as I choose which side I wanted ,,first stopping him from being able to move me,then giving him a couple of yanks on the halter, moved his butt where I wanted it and then picked the second rope back up and we moved forward again with no further issues. The yanks were consequences ---- you pull on the human and the human pulls/yanks on you. As close to natural consequences as I could do in the situation. The next time I asked for a halt, I got a nice one. My only regret is that I let it happen a couple of time before I got my wits about me and gave an effective correction. This was the first time we have done lomglining in months and I naively expected it to be as good as previously so I was sloppy. Aso I wish I'd thought to do some remedial "yield to pressure" ground exercises after the long lining. 

So...correction/consequence rather than punishment which is what I view the examples of herd/alpha horse behaiornto be.

Fay


----------



## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

Alongside the above (fabulous) posts let me add a couple of stories: 

1) My stud colt is handled by me and many other people (per my own personal methods and beliefs). When he does something wrong (such as nipping, popping up, pushing me, all normal stud colt things) I take my hand and give him a good solid whack on the face and chest coupled with a 'nah-ah'. He licks his lips, cocks his ears and then goes along with whatever I throw at him like an old 'been there done that' nag. Never headshy afterwards and I can go up and give him rough pats inbetween the eyes and he just leans into it. 

When a different boarder works with him she picks. She never hits him, just raises her hand and lightly taps his shoulder. She just says "no don't" and he walks all over her. When she finally does give him a medium sized tap to the chest he gets annoyed. He doesn't understand or care much to be picked at, he prefers larger punishments that drive the point home. 

2. My rescue gelding (for back reference let me just add that he was nearly beaten to death by a man) gets the same treatment. I'll smack his nose just as quickly as I will my stud colt's for biting. He doesn't freak, doesn't become shy or afraid of me he just licks his lips and gets this 'sorry' look. 

The correction has to fit the crime and the individual. I've worked with horses who preferred to be picked at instead of getting a one time punishment, and those who needed other forms such as ground work to get the point across. The fact of the matter is, is that if your horse becomes shy or afraid of you the issue is not the type of correction, it's that either your not using it right or you're not reading your horse right.


----------



## gee50 (Dec 31, 2014)

As mslady254 said,


mslady254 said:


> I like to think more in terms of consequence rather than punishment. It gives my thought process shades of justice ,fairness, instead of harshness or vindictiveness and hopefully it transfers to my responses and behavior.
> 
> ….So...correction/consequence rather than punishment....


I would rather have people use words such as “ correction/consequence rather than punishment”. Even thought they are all synonyms. I think the word usage of punishment is to emotionally weighted. We naked apes are very emotional creates. Although horses do have the capacity of emotions (feelings) as the there brains do have that equipment. It's very under developed compared to ours. So horse as do mules and donkeys emote rather than actually “get emotional”. So the words like “correction” and “consequences” are less emotional words. More weighted towards impersonal than personal. We take our children's behavior personally but we should take our horses behavior impersonally.

As for mules and burros. Their brains are nearly identical to horses. Although I have never trained the two beasts of burden. I would expect the basic methodology to be the same as horse training with this caveat. Mules and donkeys default to *fight* and _hold_ when pressured. Much the same as a predator. Horses default to *flight* and _run_ when pressured.

So mules and donkeys are much less “in to pressure” equine. So in training I would treat mules and donkeys more like super smart, supper sensitive TB's and use the least amount of pressure needed and zero pressure when they freeze up. I would go with patience and accelerated learning. Knowing that almost no “respect” training would be needed. Just a major hook on session to make sure we are partners and not adversaries.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> I think a punishment only works if it has been preceded by a warning, and the "crime" that you are punishing is disciplined, always.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A warning is not always sensible. 

Get a horse running back to kick you then a warning wouldn't do an iota of good, you need to react and react fast. 

Many of the racehorses when fit, would get very ticklish when they were being groomed, they would be lifting a leg and threatening to kick, _then_ a verbal warning will often make it behave. On the other hand some horses that had frightened the lads doing them would just give a real cow kick, that was worthy of punishment straight off, usually the flat of my hand on their belly. 

I was busy clipping, a horse that I had done twice that season, needed re clipping before he raced later that week. He was very fit and well. I had his halter on and the rope thrown over his neck, he was looking at me and trying to lip on the clippers. I pushed him back and switched the clippers on to oil them. That horse, who knew what was going on, swung away and double barrelled me, luckily missing me. I dropped the clippers, picked up the twitch which I rarely ever used, and whacked him hard on his quarters chasing him around the stable until he showed he was very sorry. I whacked him hard but he wouldn't have felt much as he was well blanketed. 
I don't think he really meant to kick me, it was more of a buck than a lash at me but I would not tolerate such behaviour. 
Funny thing was that the trainer, renowned for her temper to staff especially of they were being rough with the horses, came over, took one look and remarked, "Oh, it's you, I wondered what was going on!" She knew that of I hit a horse there was a genuine reason for doing so.
I put the clippers on and he never moved!


----------



## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

gee50 said:


> Mules and donkeys default to *fight* and _hold_ when pressured. Much the same as a predator. Horses default to *flight* and _run_ when pressured.


While I typically agree with you I think I should talk about this. While my experience with these two equines are limited I have known horses who have a lot more fight to them than mules or burros. My colt for instance will not run from something, he's bit bound and determined that either he's gonna kill it or it's gonna leave him alone. (Teaching this **** colt to lead was a trick and a half lol)

And I've known burros who were much more flighty. I think the response is determined by the individual, rather than breed. (Though you do have generalities but I do think that individualism counts for a lot here.) 

Sorry if I misunderstood your post, I'm running out of coffee and I need more! lol


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Punishment is an unpleasant consequence to a choice. 

If there is not a choice to be made, either because the environment has been created to eliminate choice or because the subject is mentally incapable of it, then punishment runs the risk of becoming unwarranted, “unfair” or abusive.

IMO the comment by Loosie, regarding the inference of sentience, accountability and those roles within the constructs of punishment is really one that needs to be considered and discussed more often as it pertains to training horses. That would be yet another thread I suppose.


----------



## gee50 (Dec 31, 2014)

I know you know this but I just wanted to comment to the greater readership.


Foxhunter said:


> A warning is not always sensible.
> ...That horse, who knew what was going on, swung away and double barrelled me, luckily missing me.


The horse didn't miss. It was smart enough to know that had he actually connected, all hell would break loose. It was probably the 10,000 time the horse got irritated at a groom and just dropped all the subtleties. The horse knew it had to be groomed and was in it's language taking responsibility no to connect.



Foxhunter said:


> I dropped the clippers, picked up the twitch which I rarely ever used, and whacked him hard on his quarters chasing him around the stable until he showed he was very sorry. I whacked him hard but he wouldn't have felt much as he was well blanketed.


For many uninformed readers this might look like CA bad behavior moment. They would make a nasty comment on your use of corrective methods.

But I know the race horse industry. You guys have no time to be messing around with horse. It's not person with the horse. What is personal is when your employer see your not handling the situation and taking up their time by not getting the job done. In the horse racing business there are 10 people waiting for your job. Your employer ain't gonna be nice about it. You'll be packing you trash before breakfast and a new groom would be ready just after morning work out.



Foxhunter said:


> I don't think he really meant to kick me, it was more of a buck than a lash at me but I would not tolerate such behaviour.


So true my friend.



Foxhunter said:


> Funny thing was that the trainer, renowned for her temper to staff especially of they were being rough with the horses, came over, took one look and remarked, "Oh, it's you, I wondered what was going on!" She knew that of I hit a horse there was a genuine reason for doing so. I put the clippers on and he never moved!


Glad to here that!!!


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi Reining, All!



Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> IMO the comment by Loosie, regarding the inference of sentience, accountability and those roles within the constructs of punishment is really one that needs to be considered and discussed more often as it pertains to training horses. That would be yet another thread I suppose.


No, that is _just_ the discussion I was hoping to see.

And since no one took the initiative with a set of definitions, I will have a stab at it:

Correction: Done within the three second rule (or attempted, if a little late, an error, but still a correction). The elbow to the nose to discourage a bite.

Punishment: Done well outside of the three seconds. You pull your critters nose out of his hay to grab a quick ride. As soon as you ask for a canter, Mr. Horse unloads you and makes a bee-line back to the feeder. You take stock, determine that all necessary pieces are still attached, limp back to the barn, corral the monster, and proceed to make him sweat in the round pen until you feel better. (Or simply whale on him with your carrot stick. I've seen this one before; bet you have too.)

Accountability: Little Johnny comes home from school, drops his books on the floor, and bolts back out the door to meet up with his buddies. Mom intercedes, and ordains that homework will be completed before recreation begins. However, as soon as mom's back is turned, Johnny slips out the back door, sleazing back in about dinnertime. (You've seen this one too, I'll bet.)
Mom sends the boy to his room, along with his school books and the promise of "No dinner, and No TV" until said homework is complete and checked.
This is the punishment part, but certainly Johnny understood the expectations in place for his afternoon, and probably anticipated the punishment as well. All in the few microseconds before he decided "Play Now, Pay Later".
We can assume Johnny was Accountable.

I'm no psych, so feel free to amend or correct the above as you see fit.

I'm shirking my "homework" at this very moment, but thought it better to get this in place before the thread became much longer. I think we can probably agree that most of the examples above were intended as corrections.

Now Back To Yer Keyboards and give me one hundred lines . . . Just kidding 

My tractor awaits; talk later. Steve


----------



## LittleBayMare (Jun 2, 2014)

george the mule said:


> Hi Reining, All!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Too often, corrections cross the thin line into punishment. The problem is horses do not understand punishment as defined above.

I work best with examples so here goes.

Starlight was the pony I got when I was seven. One habit he has had for a long time is pawing at feeding time. I knew this was bad, but I was taught to punish him by using a crop to smack the leg he pawed with. This often involved me setting down the feed I was measuring, digging through the nearest tack trunk for a crop, _then_ walking over and applying the punishment. This behavior continued for many years. I was applying _punishment_, not correction, and then wondering why he didn't get it. Finally I got smart. Starlight is very food oriented. So I simply withheld to food until he stopped. He pawed and I continued measuring the food. When I was done, I turned around like I was going to bring it to him, but upon seeing him still pawing, I simply set it down and started feeding the other horses. He pawed. I ignored. He banged on the gate. I ignored. He stood still, I walked over to pick up his feed pan. He started pawing again. I set the pan back down and walked away. I came back fifteen minutes later. This time he only lifted his hoof and "air pawed". I still set the feed down and walked away. The next time his foot twitched but did not paw. I stood there holding the feed, daring him to paw. He firmly planted his feet on the ground and refused to move them. He got fed. That evening I only had to walk away once. The next morning he didn't move a muscle. It took me a day to cure what I had not been able to in almost _ten years_. This was correction and consequences, not punishment. I didn't touch him. I didn't say a word. 

The same technique did not work so well with a very dominant, half-starved, gelding that I took in last summer. It only made him angry. With him I carried a crop _with me_ in my pocket to feed him. He pawed, he got one sharp smack on the shoulder _while he was still pawing_. He stared at me in shock. He tried again with the same results. He hasn't done it since. This was still correction and consequences. I did not get angry or frustrated. I didn't smack him any harder the second time than the first. I would equate it to a well-timed nip from the lead mare. 

Accountability is a hard one with horses. The word in and of itself does imply a certain level of sentience. It implies being able to think through and rationalize certain things on a level that I do not believe most animals are capable of. It implies a deeper level of understanding then "I do A, rider does X. X is uncomfortable. I do B, rider does Y. Y is comfortable. Therefore I will do B instead of A." _This_ is how horses rationalize. They do not expand on this thought by thinking "Rider corrects me when I do A because B is required for good scores in competition and looks nicer." This is accountability. This is doing more than remembering a list of do's and don'ts. 

My green mare, Mis Jet, is very smart and picks up on things quickly. I say things like "she is accountable for her own feet" "she is accountable for her own speed" etc. But she is not truly accountable in the purest sense of the word. She gets the concept of "if I slow down/speed up/turn without receiving B cue, I get corrected. Correction is uncomfortable. Therefore I will not do anything that has not been cued". This looks like accountability but it is the result of proper correction. She is not accountable for anything but avoiding correction. 

In GtM's example with Johnny, little Johnny new why his actions were wrong. He knew "Mom makes me do my homework so I get better grades in school. Homework is important for learning". He knew his mother's _reasons_ behind the punishment and, therefore, he accepted the punishment as a correction. 

This would be equivalent to Mis Jet thinking; "Rider does not want me to stray from the trail without being told because we might get hurt. She can see more than I can so I better listen". Her rational is simple; "I stray off the trail, I get corrected. Correction is uncomfortable. I get left alone if I wait for the cue".

Accountability goes hand in hand with reason. Horses do not understand the reasons behind most of the things we teach them. Their goal is to avoid correction. Correction can differ from horse to horse, but it still needs to be _correction,_ not _punishment_. Punishment only works if the one being punished understands the reasoning behind it. Horses do not understand reason. 

Meh. Only 51 lines but you'll live. :lol: Now I have a final paper to get back to. If only I could write this much this fast for that. :-(


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

There is correction, and there is punishment-both have their place, and I agree with Foxhunter, that giving a warning is not always appropriate, and you have to react immediately and firmly, with that two second rule
If a horse ever tried to kick or bite me, my reaction is immediate
ON the other hand, if a horse is being stupid, maybe spooking at stuff he usually does not, because he feels fresh, or whatever, I might give him a firm verbal warning 'quit', and then get after him , if he still is not listening.

While it is quite normal for a young stallion to try and nip, rear, ect, he would only really try it once with me, before he got the message that he better not try again. 
I raised and showed several stallions, and being stallions was never a reason to make exception as as to behavior expectations, letting them repeat that behavior over and over again


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Qoute
Punishment: Done well outside of the three seconds. You pull your critters nose out of his hay to grab a quick ride. As soon as you ask for a canter, Mr. Horse unloads you and makes a bee-line back to the feeder. You take stock, determine that all necessary pieces are still attached, limp back to the barn, corral the monster, and proceed to make him sweat in the round pen until you feel better. (Or simply whale on him with your carrot stick. I've seen this one before; bet you have too.)

No, this is not punishment to me, in regards to horses anyway, as I assume that three second rule applying at all times, and why you correct, punish, whatever term you wish to use, get the message across, and then act like nothing happened.
That is why I find it so frustrating , reading posts, where every time a horse does something un desirable, the solution seems to be to work them or lunge them.
A horse that succeeded in latching his teeth onto you, has no idea why several minutes later he is having the snot worked out of him!
For a horse that bucked you off, get back on, and then punish him by spurring etc, if he attempts to buck again. If you decide to lunge him first, just use it to get the edge of that you might have failed to do when you got 'launched'
There has to be immediate consequences to an undesirable action, and direct association with that negative action. Punish the bucking, and don't expect the horse to make a connection, if instead you decide to ground work him into the ground!


----------



## gee50 (Dec 31, 2014)

*Correction*: Instant positive consequences, Instant negative consequences. There is no 3 second rule. A horse's mind, spatially works at about 10 times the speed of a human with no reasoning-memory capability. Yes a horse will get it after about the 3rd time the 3 second rule is initiated due to emotional-memory capability. But why have to do something 3,5 or 10 times when once get the job done.

*Punishment*: That's for children. Horses are not children. Leave you personal baggage out of it. The horse don't care.

*Accountability*: This a partnership. You are the leader. You are accountable for you directions. No horse is broken. They are perfect just the way they are. If a horse doesn’t understand you it's you responsibility to know or learn how to communicate with the horse. The horse is responsible for there feet. The horse if trained properly will not dump you or anyone else and if so should be rewarded with the consequences. This also applies to on the ground. Kicking, biting or otherwise run over you is not being accountable. Again the horse should be rewarded with the appropriate consequences.


----------



## LittleBayMare (Jun 2, 2014)

gee50 said:


> *Accountability*: This a partnership. You are the leader. You are accountable for you directions. No horse is broken. They are perfect just the way they are. If a horse doesn’t understand you it's you responsibility to know or learn how to communicate with the horse. The horse is responsible for there feet. The horse if trained properly will not dump you or anyone else and if so should be rewarded with the consequences. This also applies to on the ground. Kicking, biting or otherwise run over you is not being accountable. Again the horse should be rewarded with the appropriate consequences.


Responsibility and accountability are two different things, IMO. Responsibility is being sure to avoid the consequences by not exhibiting undesirable behavior. Horses can be responsible. Accountability, on the other hand, is the ability to comprehend the undesirable actions committed in a way that allows them to be held accountable for their actions even much later after the action is completed. This is not something horses are capable of. They are instinctual animals that live in the moment. 

A horse can be held _responsible_ for their choices in the moment with proper and timely correction. They cannot, however, be held _accountable_ for their actions because they do not comprehend anything beyond "I do A, I get corrected".

Responsibility as defined by merriam-webster: 
the quality or state of being responsible: as 
_a_ *:* moral, legal, or mental accountability 
_b_ *:* reliability, trustworthiness 

Accountability as defined by merriam-webster: 
the quality or state of being accountable; _especially_ *:* an obligation or willingness to accept responsibility or to account for one's actions

Horses can maintain a "state of being responsible". They can have mental accountability. They can be reliable and trustworthy as much as any animal can. Horse cannot "accept responsibility" or "account for their actions" beyond the moment. Once the moment is gone, your window of opportunity for correction is also gone.


----------



## gee50 (Dec 31, 2014)

LittleBayMare said:


> Responsibility and accountability are two different things, IMO. Responsibility is being sure to avoid the consequences by not exhibiting undesirable behavior. Horses can be responsible. Accountability, on the other hand, is the ability to comprehend the undesirable actions committed in a way that allows them to be held accountable for their actions even much later after the action is completed. *This is not something horses are capable of.* They are instinctual animals that live in the moment.


I buy that. 

So you put “accountability” in the round file where put “punishment”. Using “responsibility” in lieu of “accountability” as I do for “correction” and “punishment”, respectively.

Works for me.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

When it came to little Johnny who tho't he knew the consequences and decided he was ok with that, I'd have added that he gets to do the dishes as well. Gotta provide enough incentive to get the result you are after.


----------



## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

I don't really use "punishment" with horses or animals at all. 

Punishment is the when someone does something wrong, and then after that they receive some sort of reprimand which ideally deters them. It only ever occurs after something happens. 

This works fine with humans as we have the ability to reflect on our behaviour and to link past events with consequences. Animals don't have this ability, or it's only quite limited. In this way punishment is useless. 

If a horse does something perhaps kicks at me, or bites, while they are kicking or biting I will make things quite unpleasant for them. However this unpleasantness ends as soon as the behaviour does.


----------



## LittleBayMare (Jun 2, 2014)

gee50 said:


> I buy that.
> 
> So you put “accountability” in the round file where put “punishment”. Using “responsibility” in lieu of “accountability” as I do for “correction” and “punishment”, respectively.
> 
> Works for me.


Exactly. Accountability and responsibility are not that different for humans, just as correction and punishment are often similar for us. However when dealing with animals in a lower level of sentience the difference becomes more important. 



Saskia said:


> I don't really use "punishment" with horses or animals at all.
> 
> Punishment is the when someone does something wrong, and then after that they receive some sort of reprimand which ideally deters them. *It only ever occurs after something happens. *
> 
> ...


Completely agree. Punishment is after the fact, something too many people don't understand. It has taken me quite a while to get good a reacting fast enough to catch them in the act but it has made a world of difference now that I have gotten good at it. 

Some people really dislike a lot of the "natural horsemanship" stuff that's gotten so popular, due in part, IMO, that so many people misapply the fundamental principles. I don't use near all of it, but there are some good points when applied appropriately. Lunging a horse after the fact doesn't do a [email protected] thing, however I do apply the concept of moving a horse's feet to get your point across as this is the standard form of communication that they themselves use with each other. I don't usually lunge them. However, if they are, for example, crowding my space, I will firmly back them up and/or yield the appropriate body part away from me and make them hustle while doing it. However, as soon as they are out of my space, I stop and ignore them rather than lunge them around some more. Kicking or even threatening to kick gets a brisk hindquarter yield. Biting gets the appropriate smack and forequarter hustle. 

But no matter what type of correction I use, it is quick and to the point. I don't use the "3 second rule" for my response time because the response needs to be initiated while the action is still being committed. I apply the "3 second rule" to the _duration _of the response. Unless it is an extreme circumstance, I try to keep the duration of my correction to approximately three seconds as that is about as long as their attention span is for most corrections. Now, if a horse full on charges me or something, then I have no problem raining holy he!! down on him/her for ten to fifteen seconds because I want them to be fully convinced that if they ever do it again I will eat them alive. 

I hope I haven't opened a new can of worms with the NH thing, so let's not turn this into a debate about that, k?


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Temple Grandin writes in Animals In Translation under a summary of Training Methonds under Principles, page 323, "Use no punishment. This means no stimuli that causes fear or pain.

For those who may not heard of her, she is acutely autistic but never-the-less has earned a doctoral degree in animal science. She has written other books, papers, and articles such as, "Animals Are Not Things".

Under a section entitled Pain-Motivated Training, she does ok the use of electric fences to contain cattle, dogs, and other animals. She even allows the use of a shock collar on dogs but only for safety in training a dog not to chase joggers or cars. Elsewhere she says the collar should be left on a few days before use in order for the dog not to associate the shock with the human.

She says behaviors with a strong instinctual motivation such as deer chasing are less likely to respond to positive methods ad more likely to respond to punishment.

And, "Beating an animal or other severe punishment is cruel and not very effective."

Under "Misunderstood Motivation" (which could almost deserve a thread of it's own) she suggests that people keep asking themselves, "How does this animal perceive this situation?".

Conversely, in another section summarizing Rage and Anger-Motivated Behavior under Principles of Troubleshooting she does say that in some cases punishment may be appropriate, especially with low fear animals.

And also, "Aggression problems will often get worse if nothing is done to correct the behavior."

Sounds almost contradictory but apparently the "Use no punishment principle" is just that, a principle, but one that there are exceptions to, but not to be taken lightly.

Under a section on Fear Motivated Behavior under Principles of Troubleshooting she says, Never punish fear motivated behavior because the animal will become increasingly frightened.

And further on......Trainers must work to prevent fear memories from forming, especially in nervous flighty animals. Fear memories are permanent.

If I were sitting in one of her classes I'd have lots of questions to ask. This particular book is about animals in general, not specific to horses.

I'll look forward to reading something she has written on horses. She is a long time horse lover.

Not posting my own opinions at this time as I'm too new to saddle horses to have a legitimate opinion.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

IMO Correction and punishment are not equated, instead punishment is one half of then necessary component of correction. For a punishment to be considered a correction, there must be a right answer that the horse can choose or not. 

There must be a reward for choosing the correct response (that can be something as simple as full release of pressure).

If there is not any right answer offered by the rider on the cue menu or no reward offered for a correct response then it is only punishment and not a correction.

Correction: turn left please…. horse pulls head right and runs into bit pressure, hand does not budge, horse turns head left and well timed release is given.

Punishment: a western rider is pulling back on the reins while kicking behind the girth. Horse is confused and sees no clear right answer so he stops. Rider then smacks his butt and the horse moves forward still feeling the pressure of the bit pulling back. Rider is oblivious to what just happened but thinks he/she provided a correction with the crop.

As for sentience, the popular understanding and the clinical understanding are very different.

Popular understanding; I am

Clinical understanding; I think, therefore I am

So depending upon what definition you are going by, it will determine your expectation of what accountability or responsibility is on the horse's part.


----------



## gee50 (Dec 31, 2014)

Great post Hondo.


Hondo said:


> Temple Grandin writes in Animals In Translation under a summary of Training Methods under Principles, page 323, "Use no punishment. This means no stimuli that causes fear or pain. …..
> 
> ….. And further on......Trainers must work to prevent fear memories from forming, especially in nervous flighty animals. Fear memories are permanent.


So now we have a Doctor of Animal Sciences backing up what I have posted like 50 times here. Stop spanking, whacking, smacking, punishing, hitting or otherwise using the CTJ method. It is not necessary. If a horse is that out of control you need to step back and reevaluate yourself or training methods.

If we could all just slow down an take a deep breath. Use the turtle and hare method. Who always wins the race? The turtle! Slow and steady does the job. It may take you, 5 extra minutes on the front end but on the back end there is no recidivism with the horse's behavior. Horses never forget, NEVER. So do you want to revisit old habits manifested in new ways? No. Drop all the violence. Teach the basics up front. Again, it takes longer. But again there is no regression.


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi All!

Really some exceptional posts here; LittleBayMare, a solid "A" for your posts; would have been A+, but the assigment _was_ for 100 lines :-D Hope the final comes off as well. Off topic, but I would like to comment that participation in a forum such as this is really great practice in organizing your thoughts and putting them on paper. Which in turn is a valuable precursor for being able to speak publicly in a persuasive and convincing manner. Good Job.

Hondo, (technically the OP on this, from his "treats" thread), re. the Heart to Heart thing, I believe there is a great deal of largely unacknowledged, and un-researched potential in the equine/human (animal/human) relationship. "Western" civilization largely refutes the metaphysical; even in the face of convincing evidence to the contrary. Simply using the term turns many away. Subject for yet another thread, Oh Yes!

I see a definite trend toward denying equine accountability; as (semi)sentients, they probably lack any real ability to make the association between crime and punishment. I guess we could say "cognitive ability"?

I guess these are my thoughts as well. An analogy I like relates horses to very young human children; say two-year-olds. They are not (and are not expected to be) cognizent entities. They have speech, but mostly as relates to needs and emotions. They mostly live and react emotionally and for the moment, w/o any real reasoning or associative ability. The animals in my care largely fit this description, George may be just a smidge more advanced; a bratty three-year-old 

As such, punishment as per the definition I stipulated is actually abuse, as it is highly unlikely that equine (or young children) make the connection between past actions, and present consequences.

Personally, I do not think "punishment" is effective, for equine, dogs, cats, or often even for humans. And in fact, I'm pretty mild as far as corrections go; my rare correction involving a negative reinforcement would involve an elbow to the nose, or a smack on the shoulder or butt, and then only when teeth or toes get too close for comfort. Anger simply has no place in the animal/human (child/adult) interaction, and I do my very best to suppress other negative emotions such as anxiety and impatience in my interactions with them.

Mostly I operate on the philosophy of "Ignore the Bad and Reward the Good". For me this works well, as I am more interested in developing a relationship than training toward a specific goal. I would certainly acknowledge that for specific training goals there are undoubtedly quicker and equally humane ways to get the job done.

In another discussion, member SueC suggested a book titled: "Horse Watch; What it is to be Equine", authored by Marthe Kiley-Worthington. Highly worthwhile reading, Thanks Sue! I can heartily second her recommendation.

Off for more "Tractor" lessons: Forward, Scoop. Back. Forward, Dump. Repeat as necessary. Sigh; think we've about got that one down 

ByeBye! Steve


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

If we're going to talk about punishment, maybe we should default to the definition used by behavioral science. And throw in the definition of reward also just so's we don't confuse the two and everybody stays on the same page.....or at least sorta.

Reward:

Positive reward - a desirable stimuli given given or caused after the behavior occurs. (within (1) second according to Temple)

Negative reward- an undesirable stimuli is removed after the behavior occurs. The release of pressure in horses is one. Pressure itself cannot be considered punishment as it is not associated with any behavior at the time it is applied.

Punishment:

Positive punishment - an undesirable stimuli (pain or fear) caused after the behavior occurs.

Negative punishment - the removal of a desirable stimuli (or thing) after the behavior occurs. No internet for a week!



gee50 said:


> So now we have a Doctor of Animal Sciences backing up what I have posted like 50 times here.


And don't forget Willis J. Powell from the mid 1800's who believed he had found the secret to the original horse whisperer's secret.

He spoke about the CJT methods in his book and said although those methods were faster than his methods the horses did not stay gentle and were afraid of many things they encountered on the road.

Powell did not publish his book for several years after writing it for the same reason the original horse whisperer kept his methods secret. If you got on with animals TOO well you could be accused of animal magnetism which came from the devil and was punishable by burning at the stake. 

Speaking of children and accountability, there are laws defining the age of accountability for children. I think it may vary a little by state.

So what would the age of accountability be for horses? Personally I'm thinking they just don't live that long.

We are predators with anger and fight as the first response to be considered hard wired into our brains when threatened, or so says those who claim to know such things. I think it is tremendously important to be aware of this nature of ours so as to be more vigilant in our efforts to over ride it when dealing with flight prey.

As a relative newbie, I am still so overcome with awe and appreciation for what my horse does for me on every ride that I cannot imagine what he'd have to do for me to hit or hurt him. He's my hero ad ya just don't go beating up your heroes!


----------



## gee50 (Dec 31, 2014)

Hondo said:


> ....Positive reward - a desirable stimuli given given or caused after the behavior occurs. (within (1) second according to Temple)


I had to laugh, Most folks have a 3 to 5 second rule. I preach the 1/10th of a second rule. Meaning you have 1/10 of a second to recognize the behavior and 9/10th of a second to reward it: positive or negative.

I think we can all agree if we see another person teaching a horse a concept. If the horse jumps or acts out the person jumps. It takes all of about 1/700 of a second for this to happen. And what do we all think??? Wow, that horse just taught that person a new trick. Horse don't have a 1 second rule. It's now or never. Get my point on how fast you need to reward a positive or negative behavior.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

It seems we are caught up in semantics
What difference is it, whether you use the word correction or punishment, when dealing with un wanted behavior in a horse?
We realize horses don't have deductive reasoning, live in the here and now, live in a herd setting that has them accept black and white, but fair rules
So, if a horse kicks at you, or bites you, you undersatnd that you have to correct them , within that 3 second rule, so they associate the correction with the deed. If you wish to call that pop on the offending part a correction, versus punishment, or that reaction to a horse that bites, letting him no in no un certain terms he crossed the line, It's no big deal as to whether you refer to your correct response as punishment or correction.
Me, I think punishment applies more, as I'm not trying to show the horse how he should kick, or how he should bite me! I am telling him that it is not acceptable on any terms! So, yea, I punish the horse for offering to bite or kick, but not in anger and not by holding a grudge afterwards.
If I'm schooling him, and he wanders, not staying between the reins, and I fix him, with my legs and hands, that is correction
I know in the days of 'no spanking', the word punishment has a bad connotation, but let;s get real, and think as to how it is applied correctly to the horse and not dwell on dictionary definitions!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

gee50 said:


> I had to laugh, Most folks have a 3 to 5 second rule. I preach the 1/10th of a second rule. Meaning you have 1/10 of a second to recognize the behavior and 9/10th of a second to reward it: positive or negative.
> 
> I think we can all agree if we see another person teaching a horse a concept. If the horse jumps or acts out the person jumps. It takes all of about 1/700 of a second for this to happen. And what do we all think??? Wow, that horse just taught that person a new trick. Horse don't have a 1 second rule. It's now or never. Get my point on how fast you need to reward a positive or negative behavior.


Well, Gee, that three second rule is the outer limit, and you don't count to three and then react. Some of us might have that lightning quick Superman response also, getting well under that three seconds!
I think, if my horse completed a good trail class, I do have those three seconds,after I cross that finish line, to reward his effort with a pat, but maybe I get it in in one second, or maybe in two.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> It seems we are caught up in semantics
> What difference is it, whether you use the word correction or punishment,


I am afraid animal behavior studied scientist (including human animal) such as Temple Grandin and a whole host of others world wide would emphatically disagree about being caught up in semantics.

Formally, there are rewards and punishments. Period. And there are two forms of each. Correction and consequences is not used. There are the four forms of reinforcement. Keep it clean, keep it clear. Keep the precise definitions in mind.

According to brain scans on animals that show differing areas of the brain lighting up plus regular research the outer limit on an association between food as a reward and a behavior is one second. I have not read any research on the outer limits of punishment. I've heard of the three second rule quite a while back but do not know of it's source or validity.

There are professional trainers that insist the horse is smart enough to know we are predators and not part of the herd, whether a large herd or the ubiquitous herd of two. Not withstanding, the only social behavior they know is herd behavior and I can see conditions where they might experiment on the human predators they are in symbiotic relationships with.

I have now a solid over a year in daily observing and mingling with a free roaming herd of 17. Yes they do maintain their positions by force or the threat of force. Except for some buddies. Even then, some of the buddies will say the friendship is over until this flake of hay is eaten. Some will share. Others will almost dare anyone to even look at them.

But they are all horses. They are all prey animals. We are not horses and we are predators. I don't know of course, I don't have the experience, but I deeply wonder if bold actions by us are viewed as just another herd pecking order maneuver.

I know you and others, including me, are not overly enamored by either Parelli or Monty but the fact that they both say to never hit a biting horse cannot be totally ignored I wouldn't think.

I haven't read them much so I don't know what they say about other stuff. I prefer to read other stuff, such as Grandin for one.

Now for my ornery streak: Monty uses the word schooling a lot and I noticed you using it. What does it mean? Does it fit anywhere in the four formal modes of training using behavior modification? :hide:

Off topic. About five days ago I held a horse about three hours old. First time I had ever been near a baby horse. Oh man! Today I shot some video. I couldn't believe it. She is running, bucking, jumping around all over the place. Wow.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Temple Grandin did some good work making slaughter conditions better for cattle.
I have heard her talk in person, at the annual Horse breeder and owner's Conference, and to be truthful, was not that impressed
Of course horses know that we in reality are not horses! We simply use their communication, to some degree, in establishing our position , in relationship to them
Yes, we belong to the predators, but as such, we do not relate to horses so that they think of us as predators. That is why, for example, you do not just walk up to a timid horse, head on, staring-that is what reveals us to be predators
We recognize horses as a prey species, when understanding why they react in a certain manner, when we are training them- instinctive flight reaction, like shying, spooking and bolting, but we do not try to ever appear like a predator to a horse ourselves, or why in the heck would they ever let up on their back?

I'm not a Parelli fan, but I think even he is not stupid enough to say never to hit a horse that bites! Maybe, he mentioned the wrong timing, where it becomes a game?????. If ahorse sinks teeth into my lfesh, or even my coat, dam rights I'll hit him, even if it is a hard pop on that rear, like akick from another horse!
Well, if you don't like the term 'schooling', what do you wish to call a training session, where you ask the horse to perform some familiar exercises, or teach him new ones? I'm the teacher and the horse is the pupil, so the term seems fitting to me
And yes, that is what I have been trying to say-that bold move when we drive a horse out of our space, etc, is using the language of herd dynamics, and has nothing to do with a prey/predator relationship!
A horse is never going to 'join up' with an entity that he considers a predator
You know, I see people getting all caught up in stuff like 'horsenality, clicker training(positive reward) ,instead of using the KISS principle, which has worked for eons, creating great horses. Many of the same people also ignore the basic needs of a horse, like the ability to move almost constantly, for both mental and physical health, also brought up at a conference, by an equine behaviorist.
Then out comes the ulcer medication, the tranquilizers, cribbing collars, etc.
What ever happened to just good plain horse sense?
Pressure,and release from pressure is a training tool that has worked for eons
By the way, I don;'t have much use for Monty either-a man who even close relatives have coined a liar!
PS, I can send you the one book that I have by grandin, as I never got past that first chapter!


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Well, at least you're talking about it. The average eons old I say you do person would have walked off long ago.

I have a science background including some formal education in developmental psychology. Not much, just the stuff required for teaching. I'm super analytic and enjoy learning details. I can certainly see how Grandin would be hard and/or boring reading for those not interested in the area.

Yes, Grandin's main visible impact to the public is her work in the cattle industry. But her work goes far beyond that. As far as public speaking, it is not one of her strengths. She will tell you that. She only speaks on demand and as a way to help animals. Otherwise I suspect she'd rather be with animals at that time. Heck, at four years old she could not even talk. Her behavior was such that any normal parent would have sent her to a ward home.

Many scientist that have made enormous contributions to each and every one of us are not accomplished speakers. I'm doubting the average person would have been impressed by hearing Einstein speak either.

But when 90% of the cattle handling facilities use some stuff designed by Grandin that came out of her knowledge of animals resulting from the close proximity of her brain functions to animals, that has to count for something.

KISS system is cool for simple stuff. But KISS won't get you to the moon. Or produce most of the man made items we all see and use around us, including these wonderful computers that are beginning to rule our lives and take us away from the equines we so love.

Horses have talents and abilities that we humans with our greater cognitive abilities cannot duplicate and cannot be trained to do.

I know about dogs predicting seizures. I was "told" by a horse person that some horses had the same ability and would simply stop and freeze as long as 30 minutes before the onset of a seizure.

Don't know if that particular bit is true, but they do some miraculous things. I want to understand how they do that. Grandin has contributed to that understanding immensely. And it just ain't simple. It requires long hours, weeks, months, years of meticulous work performing and repeating research.

I just gotta say, I'm glad my dentist is not continuing to use stuff that has worked for eons.

And as always, I do appreciate the opposing views. Gives me something to think about with no TV.

And as gee mentioned, it does help me organize my thoughts figure out what I really think.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Conversely, we have more spoiled and problem horses then ever before.
Grandin also takes stuff at the extreme end , for some of her comparisons.
Far instance, I just skimmed her chapter on horse breeding-wild versus domestic.
Not everyone breeds their stallion, keeping him confined, hobbling a mare and just letting the stud at her! Those kind of comparisons, show a definite agenda,on her part. 
I perhaps have seen more 'wild horses' riding out west, then she ever has. Ever see a fight between two stallions-not pretty. Had to have hubby fire a shot over some amorous Bachelor stallions, intent on the mare I was riding.
Of course, animals neutered late, still retain some behavior associated with their former sexual activities. Some male cats still spray, the dog we rescued and neutered, still will scratch the ground to mark terriory and I have had more than one gelding still mount mares-so what does that prove? Retained memory response
AT least Grandin is not posing as an Animal communicator-but that is another story!
I don't beat my horses, I don't discipline them in anger, I am not inconsistant, I don't push them, but I darn well will get after a horse that kicks or bites. Never raised one of those,a s they were all handled correctly form birth, but standing stallions, we had outside mares in, and my son started outside colts.
Some of those mares were touted to 'just love people' Sure they did, walking all over you when led, and trying to drag you where they wanted to go
They got corrected, with a stud shank, so you can call that consequences, negative re -enforcement, whatever-but I'm not about to get run over by any horse!
I always fed our main herd at liberty, and all knew that they could never show any aggression while I was out there feeding. Yup, if a horse tried to run another horse off, or a lower down horse thought over me was a logical escape route, they were corrected, with whatever I had handy.
Person who looks after our place, when we are gone, said how she always felt safe, feeding our horses, but not so at other places.
I know of a young mother, left to feed the horses while hubby was away. She was accidentally kicked at feeding time, in the abdomen,and bled out
That horse did not mean to kick her, aiming at another horse, but dead is dead
My horses are very well cared for. none fear me, but come when called (unless grass is too lush! ) I don't have one horse that is hard to halter
Maybe those that recommend never hitting a horse,should deal with a stallion that bites I know of people that have suffered serious injuries, grabbed by a stallion.
Heck, their jaws are extremely powerful. I have seen my gelding grab hold of that turned tractor tire, I use for a hay feeder,and lift it.
Maybe people should just give horses 'time out', something that my grandchildren are familiar with
Time to do my 10 PM feeding of my dry lotted IR horse. Yes, I feed her 4 meals a day, clean her dry lot daily, exercise her daily 
If you wish to quote people that are considered 'fathers of NH, then try Tom Dorrance:
Be as gentle with a horse as possible, but also, as firm as needed, to make that horse a good citizen'
A horse that bites or kicks, is not a good citizen, and maybe well on his way to the meat market. If a well placed hit gets the message across, you just might have saved that horse
We try to train and handle horses in such a manner that they never think they can run through a bit, pull away with a halter, kick or bite a human
HOWEVER, once a horse has learned any of those vises, we use whatever it takes to make that horse never successful trying to commit that vise again.
Anyway, that's my stance,and I'm sticking to it!


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I've read about Tom Dorrance. Is there a book by him or others that you would recommend for a solid basic framework for training horses that is oriented or targeted towards a beginner?

I will continue to have a deep and abiding respect for what Temple Grandin has had to overcome, what she has never-the-less been able to accomplish, and the immense contributions she has made to the understandings of the internal lives of animals.

I have the notion you are not really aware of who she is or what she has done other than to look for a few things to pick out and criticize.

Thanks for that post. Lot of food for thought there.


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi Smilie, Harold, All!

Smilie, I agree with you; a horse, or any animal who is expected to live and interact with humans needs to learn good manners as a bare minimum.The goal is good manners, tho, and it probably doesn't matter how you arrive, so long as you do get there. I believe that The Journey is at least as important as The Goal, and that there are many roads. Some are interstates, some are secondary highways, some are country lanes. Some are 4X4 trails, and some take you out into the middle of nowhere and leave you there.
These days, Google will help you sort the road thing, but no similar uberview exists for equine/animal training (unless perhaps it is here on hf.com). Most sources use one method, or another, but more or less require that you stick to _their_ road to arrive at your destination. And tradition rides with a heavy hand.
Point is, you never know until you go, and similarly, unless you go and look, you never know what treasure might be waiting just over that next hill. Never be afraid to try something new. Never hesitate to abandon a path leading nowhere. Enjoy The Journey.
Saturday morning philosophy; way more fun than shoveling horse poop.(But related, somehow ;-)

ByeBye! Steve


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

If my horses do something out of character there is no form of chastisement and I'll do my best to get to the bottom of why.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Using George’s analogy, there are as many roads to take down the middle of the two extremes as there are individual horses and people.

A couple of days ago, a cowhand friend brought four horses over to my place to work them in my riding arena. One of them was an evaluation for a client who leases out horses to riding camps and dude ranches. For several hours I watched him work these horses.

We had some rain the day before and on his way out his truck got stuck in the mud trying to get up the hill on the other side of our creek. The trailer was in the middle of the creek and the decision was made to unload the horses so the truck could make it up the hill. There was one horse that would not unload.

At this point my friend was pretty ticked off. Not at the horses per se, but at the situation in general. He was trying to get this horse out, but with every application of pressure even from the rump, the horse would just back up through the pressure further into the trailer. He handed me the lead and walked around to get his whip out of the back of the truck.

I looked the horse in the eye turned and led him out calmly. At that point with a frightened horse and human emotions running high, more pressure wasn’t the answer, all he had to do was calm himself down and ask.

From watching this horse for the past five hours, I knew this horse in particular wanted to please but after getting shaken up in the trailer, fear was overwhelming him. He wasn't so panic stricken that he was acting dangerously, he just couldn't see the bottom of the creek anymore because it had gotten stirred up by the trailer and other horses. 

Would whipping the horse have eventually gotten the job done? Probably, but with a lot more work and a lot more frustration for both. Did it matter how the horse was taken out? That depends. If you think a small lesson in trusting humans is as valuable as learning that “When I say move! You better move those feet!”.

Part of good horsemanship is realizing if more or less pressure is necessary in which situation with a particular animal. Part of good horsemanship is knowing thyself. Part of good horsemanship is identifying when to step away from the way you “always” do things and take a different tact to get the job done. But first, you must be willing to admit that sometimes a change of direction is necessary.

As for my friend, I think we balance each other out. He gives me a little of the “get it done” attitude and I temper him with my calm down and evaluate the situation approach. We each take a little bit away from the other and incorporate it into the way we work with the horses to obtain a better balance. 

Learning from others that don't necessarily share your approach.... another road to go down.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Thanks for starting this thread Steve - next to hoofcare, behavioural training one of my big passions! ;-)



> Punishment. Another one of those "human" words, and one I'm not sure has an equivalent in "Equus". About the nearest thing I have come across is a description of how the alpha mare will segregate an unruly brat/foal from The Herd until he learns some manners.


Forgot to comment on this in last thread. Perhaps when we include our human 'baggage' associated with the term, there is no equine/animal equivalent, but strictly speaking, taking it to mean an unpleasant consequence, it absolutely happens & is understood in every animal... with a brain stem anyway.

Your eg. above is exactly what 'join up' is about, and one reason I don't like the concept of 'Join Up' in a round pen & just for the sake of it. In natural 'horse speak' it is a punishment, so if the horse isn't deserving of punishment, if running away from you doesn't constitute an undesirable consequence...??



tinyliny said:


> I think a punishment only works if it has been preceded by a warning, and the "crime" that you are punishing is disciplined, always.


Disagree. The above 'Join Up' behaviour is one eg - the lead mare doesn't necessarily warn, or give a '3 strikes' rule. Nor do consequences like electric fences, or similar natural 'punishment' like sticking your nose in a snake or porcupine or such.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

george the mule said:


> Correction: Done within the three second rule (or attempted, if a little late, an error, but still a correction). The elbow to the nose to discourage a bite. ...
> Punishment: Done well outside of the three seconds.


If you go by the '3 second rule' with a horse, punishing a horse *after* the behaviour, then I don't see any difference between your defs of correction & punishment. Even if inside 3 seconds, it can be effectively the same for the horse. 



> Accountability: Little Johnny comes home from school... This is the punishment part, but certainly Johnny understood the expectations in place for his afternoon, and probably anticipated the punishment as well. All in the few microseconds before he decided "Play Now, Pay Later".


That is one important factor which I think is greatly over... assumed about animals - that they 'know' something is 'wrong' so 'deserve' to be punished for it. Not at all saying that's never the case, but I believe that it is very frequently not - it's because the horse *did not understand* the lesson. Not that that's to say that an undesirable consequence(punishment) to the action is not perhaps warranted either way, if you want the horse to learn what/why it's wrong, but a punishment, after the event, regardless of what he 'knows' is not understood/warranted/helpful.

But on to what I also said in the last post, about what is also going on in the situation aside from the single cause/effect, Johnny is one eg of this - he understood his behaviour was 'wrong' but his motivation to go see his mates was much stronger than the motivation to avoid punishment. Therefore the punishment was ineffective. This time(can't change something that's already happened anyway) & in future.


----------



## LittleBayMare (Jun 2, 2014)

Smilie said:


> It seems we are caught up in semantics
> What difference is it, whether you use the word correction or punishment, when dealing with un wanted behavior in a horse?
> We realize horses don't have deductive reasoning, live in the here and now, live in a herd setting that has them accept black and white, but fair rules
> So, if a horse kicks at you, or bites you, you undersatnd that you have to correct them , within that 3 second rule, so they associate the correction with the deed. If you wish to call that pop on the offending part a correction, versus punishment, or that reaction to a horse that bites, letting him no in no un certain terms he crossed the line, It's no big deal as to whether you refer to your correct response as punishment or correction.
> ...





Hondo said:


> If we're going to talk about punishment, maybe we should default to the definition used by behavioral science. And throw in the definition of reward also just so's we don't confuse the two and everybody stays on the same page.....or at least sorta.
> 
> Reward:
> 
> ...


Punishment vs correction is not just a matter of semantics. I think Hondo clarified the difference well. IMO, the negative reward is a correction. Positive punishment seems to fit our definition of punishment well. Occasionally negative punishment can be useful with horses and it can fall under the umbrella of correction if used appropriately (i.e. my pony not getting his food until he settled down). There are distinct differences though. Positive punishment can work on humans. 99% of the time it will not work with horses as horses do not have the capacity to connect a previous action with the current punishment. 

On the subject of warnings, 99% of the time I have found them ineffective. Occasionally, once the horse is fully trained, it may only need a warning before it anticipates correction and corrects itself, but this only works with very smart, well-trained horses. 

I think that too many problems in horsemanship are rooted in human baggage. We anthropomorphize horses too much. Anthropomorphizing is fine when talking about horses as long as it does not actually carry over to our everyday interactions with them. I say my horses love/hate me and in a human sense it looks that way. However it is not about love or hate. If they look like they "love" me it's because they _respect_ me and see me as a worthy leader. An appearance of "hate" is simply a matter of disrespect.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

loosie said:


> Your eg. Above is exactly what 'join up' is about, and one reason I don't like the concept of 'Join Up' in a round pen & just for the sake of it. In natural 'horse speak' it is a punishment


Can't be punishment if it's applied before the fact. I think making them run in the round pen is just plain ole harassment. Or did I misunderstand something?



loosie said:


> That is one important factor which I think is greatly over... assumed about animals - that they 'know' something is 'wrong' so 'deserve' to be punished for it.


So true so true.

One thing I also wonder about is being fair to a horse. I understand the concept of being fair to people but what is a horse's concept of fair?

Another question popped into my head walking back in from the field. Haven't looked up the words yet, but what is the difference, if there is any, between training and teaching? I think that should still be sorta on topic.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hondo said:


> She even allows the use of a shock collar on dogs but only for safety in training a dog not to chase joggers or cars. Elsewhere she says the collar should be left on a few days before use in order for the dog not to associate the shock with the human.


I think 'emergency' type measures for averting dangerous behaviour - such as attacking joggers.... jabbing a horse with a bit/dog with a choker, because he's about to walk onto a busy road, hitting a horse with a big stick because he's coming at you with teeth bared... whatever works is warranted. This is a bit different IMO to thinking of punishment as a training technique though. This sort of treatment usually does come with 'bad' associations & 'side effects', but hey, when the alternative is worse, then having to deal with 'side effects' is the 'lesser evil'. But yes, the dog absolutely will associate the jogger with the pain in his neck, if it repeatedly happens in that context, and yes, this fear association can cause further fear/aggression. It is one thing to consider carefully when using these methods.... assuming it's something planned, rather than an emergency 'horse attacking, there's a big stick, use it in defense' type situation.



> She says behaviors with a strong instinctual motivation such as deer chasing are less likely to respond to positive methods ad more likely to respond to punishment.


Because the (instinctive, in that eg) behaviour is more 'reinforcing' than any food treat for eg. That's why, with dogs at least, play - a 'tug of war' for eg can be a far stronger 'treat' than food for many.... aside from labradors! 



> Sounds almost contradictory but apparently the "Use no punishment principle" is just that, a principle, but one that there are exceptions to, but not to be taken lightly.


That pretty much sums up my opinion about the use of punishment. It is a 'rule' if you like, but IME there are always exceptions to 'rules'.:wink:



> Never punish fear motivated behavior because the animal will become increasingly frightened.
> 
> And further on......Trainers must work to prevent fear memories from forming, especially in nervous flighty animals. Fear memories are permanent.


An incredibly important consideration. Again, in an emergency situation, never say never - you may have to 'interrupt' a dangerous behaviour with punishment, but realise the *full* effects it will have. Understand that whether fear based or otherwise, the *motivation* behind the 'punishable offense' must be considered. 

Here's a couple of egs... You're sitting on a park bench with your partner, when a stranger sits right beside you & starts making lewd suggestions and touching you. You're frightened & uncomfortable, so you slap his had away or tell him to ****** off. Then your partner turns & hits you for 'being rude' to the stranger.

Or perhaps you're gagged, or don't speak the language, and someone is doing something that worries or hurts you. So you hit their hand away, to 'tell' them not to do it. And they hit you back in punishment for your 'bad' behaviour.

2 human analogies for what animals commonly have to deal with.



> Not posting my own opinions at this time as I'm too new to saddle horses to have a legitimate opinion.


Pft! You may be a 'newbie' but that doesn't equate for a second that your opinions aren't worth hearing... particularly in hindsight of having heared many extremely worthwhile ones already. So... out with it!?!?


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> PS, I can send you the one book that I have by grandin, as I never got past that first chapter!


Free shipping??


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

gee50 said:


> So now we have a Doctor of Animal Sciences backing up what I have posted like 50 times here.


Not just any doc of animal sciences, but one who also has an amazing gift, an_ ability_. Her autism.:wink: Definitely different, definitely not less! I urge anyone who hasn't read/listened to her to give her some time. Along with some great books, there are a number of lectures free on youtube you can look up.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Stop writing more guys, I'm only up to page 3!!


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

george the mule said:


> I see a definite trend toward denying equine accountability; as (semi)sentients, they probably lack any real ability to make the association between crime and punishment. I guess we could say "cognitive ability"?


Yes, with YOUR definition of 'punishment', of which does seem to be a common one & includes the 'baggage' I was speaking, I agree with the above. But if we're going to have a discussion on behavioural principles, I think it's important to first ensure we're on the same page in defining it, and I'm with Harold that sticking to behavioural definitions of behavioural terms is easier(yes, did read next post before replying this time...). 

Therefore I do not define punishment as something that happens after the event, but something that is a undesirable consequence, which 'weakens' the behaviour that was happening at the time of it, that is, makes it less likely to be repeated in future. And animals(& small children) do understand this association too. Eg. an electric fence will 'punish' you for touching it. A child is denied a lolly for 'rude' behaviour(negative punishment).

Also agree that very young children are probably about the same in 'reasoning abiliity' to an animal, and while we still want to correct behaviour and *appropriate, understood* punishment may well be an effective part of that, an animal is no more 'deserving' for 'naughty' behaviour than a toddler is of 'amoral' behaviour.



> George may be just a smidge more advanced; a bratty three-year-old


Yeah, he's got donkey blood, so maybe more like a 10yo child!:lol:



> Mostly I operate on the philosophy of "Ignore the Bad and Reward the Good".


Yes, absolutely agree. Generally speaking of course. Sometimes it's not safe or practical to just ignore 'bad' behaviour, or it's being reinforced somehow otherwise, so ignoring it will still allow it to 'strengthen', but on the whole, I work on the premise of teaching & reinforcing 'right' whenever possible, and ignoring 'wrong' unless necessary.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

loosie said:


> Sometimes it's not safe or practical to just ignore 'bad' behaviour, or it's being reinforced somehow otherwise



page 313...Aggression problems will often get worse if nothing is done to correct the behavior.

Shoot, after copying this I see she is using the term "correct" as in correction also. I wonder which of the four basic forms of behavior modification she is referring to? Hmm, maybe not necessarily any of them? Maybe changing the environment that is causing the aggression, or something similar?

Seems like she is using the term "correct" as in do something that causes the behavior to stop, without going into details. It was just under a summary Rage-Anger Motivated Behavior - Principles of trouble shooting in the back of the book.

I'm studying this book as a text book.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hondo said:


> would emphatically disagree about being caught up in semantics.


I think *we* as the general public, are caught up in semantics on these type issues. It's like the difference between 'reward' and 'positive reinforcement'. To a behaviourist, there is no difference, but to most people, we have our own 'baggage', there's no strict definition and what some see as a 'reward'(eg release of pressure) is formally a *negative* reinforcement. So I agree that we need to be clear about definitions, otherwise we are indeed just arguing semantics & likely going round in circles.



> I've heard of the three second rule quite a while back but do not know of it's source or validity.


From memory, formal behavioural studies have shown that while all animals effectively need *instant* feedback to easily associate it with a behaviour, test on dogs show that they could *often* still associate cause & effect if it were abstracted by *up to 3 seconds at the _outside_*. Similar tests with horses show that 1 second is about the outside possibility of association. So, as with many things(pack heirarchy/alpha animals for eg), the '3 second rule' has come out of assumptions of misunderstood behavioural studies.



> There are professional trainers that insist the horse is smart enough to know we are predators and not part of the herd,


But who's to say horses are 'smart' enough to know they're horses?? And however they perceive us & themselves, I don't hold that that is an argument for using innate equine behaviours, or against 'unnatural' methods, or vice versa. It just IS.



> I know you and others, including me, are not overly enamored by either Parelli or Monty but the fact that they both say to never hit a biting horse cannot be totally ignored I wouldn't think.


On the contrary, it can indeed be ignored... & perhaps if we ignore it, they will go away!:twisted: Just being cheeky there & I do personally feel a lot of Parelli's original *principles* are sound & important. Didn't get past the 'Join Up' principle before I started having a problem with Monty's ideas.



> Now for my ornery streak: Monty uses the word schooling


Schooling = training = teaching = conditioning. IMO.



> Off topic. About five days ago I held a horse about three hours old. First time I had ever been near a baby horse. Oh man! Today I shot some video. I couldn't believe it. She is running, bucking, jumping around all over the place. Wow.


Lucky you!


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

loosie said:


> otherwise we are indeed just arguing semantics & likely going round in circles.


Now here's a semantics question that I've seen cause high school classes to almost erupt into fist fights.

If a man is trying to shoot a squirrel up in a tree, and the squirrel continually stays on the opposite side of the tree as the man circles the tree trying to get a shot, did the man go around the squirrel?

Hope I'm not breaking any rules but I just can't help it. Here's Sage Heart...

https://youtu.be/4nEXE96qEWs


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, finally we agree at some level!
Just as a side note, I attended the Mane Event today, and actually took in a clinic , given by Linda Parelli, which followed the one by Doug Millholland.
I was actually quite impressed, as she blends her classical dressage background with NH
Her clinic was on how riders make horses do things, in advertantly, such as not traveling straight. Having the riders just put extras weight in one stirrup, really affected the horses' straightness
Wasn't quite ready to have my horse analyzed at half price for the show special, concerning Horsenality, but ceratinly feel, even though I have some strong fundamental concepts from years of raising and training horses, I am open to new ideas. Some of her principles, in reagrds to training, were actually quite ';mainstream and familiar.
Far as Grandin, yes, she is autistic, and perhaps has a degree of special insight, but reading that book some more, some of her conclusions are unfounded and off the wall, if not down right incorrect, with flawed scientific double blind type studies, and are based on a lot of conjecture.

I don't think any true horsemen disagree that biting and other dangerous aggression of ahorse should not be dealt with firmly, whether you wish you call that response punishment, correction or consequences
I think the 3 second rule is an arbitrary time limit, that takes into account, human delayed reaction, and implies that of course, immediate reprisal is optimum, and once that response gets outside of three seconds,association of the deed and results, are not grasped by the horse. It does not mean you count to three first, then react
No, we do not use the fact that we are predators in training a horse-ever!
We use herd dynamitics,a nd the way they are establsihed within a herd Does not mean we trick the horse into ]believing we are part of the herd, as our stallions never considered me a possible mare to be bred!. They did consider me a leader, that out ranked them
We work around the prey mentality of a horse, when training him, thus certainly suppress any recognition by the horse as us being of the predator classification
Horses are never corrected in anger, nor are grudges held. Horses understand firm and clear boundaries, which are enforced within that herd, to the degree that they need to be
I have seen a dominant mare, introduced into a herd with another dominant mare. Those two mares will have a major conforntation, to decide who is the leader. After that, the mare that 'won', hardly has to do more than flick an ear, or swish her tail
All of our horses know never to n=be aggressive at feeding time, either to each other, or certainly not to me.
I bought anew two year old mare, who was pretty submissive to the other horses.. THus without thinking, or considering that she might not know where I stood in the order of things, I patted her on the rump, while feeding the herd at liberty. She lashed out with her back feet, as she would at another horse, protecting her food, not recognizing that the rest of the herd considered me above them in that 'herd order'. Luckily, I was close enough to only get a glancing blow. I immediately hit the offending part of the non prog part of that pitch fork I was still holding, and she never offered to kick again, nor did that 'punishment/correction have any lasting affect on her attitude
Point was made, position was clear, and she was secure, knowing where she stood, in regard to me. I was not trying to e a horse, or part of the herd, but merely responded in a a manner, that as a herd animal, she understood and accepted


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Smilie said:


> Yes, we belong to the predators, but as such, we do not relate to horses so that they think of us as predators. That is why, for example, you do not just walk up to a timid horse, head on, staring-that is what reveals us to be predators


Yeah, focus hard on him & walk directly at him with a halter 'hidden' behind your back! ...or circle shiftily around them pretending not to be interested, before closing fast on them as soon as their attention is off you. Had to include that, as one not uncommon tactic, that along with 'Join Up'(depending how it's done) that is a very predatory behaviour. I do think that horses have many innately 'prey' behaviours/reactions/attitudes and we have some innately predatory ones, and it can indeed get in the way if we're not careful to deactivate 'auto pilot'. 



> A horse is never going to 'join up' with an entity that he considers a predator


I think it does depend on your perception of 'Join Up' & how you go about it as to whether that statement's true or not. While you wouldn't call it 'Joining Up', I wouldn't call 'classic'(?) Join Up 'joining up' either really. I'm not sure the horse perceives it in any way like our aims. Actually, apparently(if ethological studies are to be believed) this kind of predatory 'round penning' tends to happen when a predator is chasing a horse in an inescapable environment. The prey animal will run & run, trying to escape, until he becomes worn out & hopeless. At which case he'll do things like drop his head, lick his lips, slow down, turn & face his attacker to 'submit', lie down & give up... Certainly something to ponder anyway.



> You know, I see people getting all caught up in stuff like 'horsenality, clicker training(positive reward) ,instead of using the KISS principle, which has worked for eons,


Trying to think of an analogy.... My major problem with that is, we have had abacusses (abacusii??) for eons and they work pretty darn well too. But that's not to say calculators can't be really helpful, and the knowledge that went into their creation isn't valuable.



> By the way, I don;'t have much use for Monty either-a man who even close relatives have coined a liar!


Just as a 'fancy that'... I find it an interesting coincidence that he alone developed the 'language of Equus', and happened to grow up in Salinas, the same town as the Dorrance bro's. Must be the town.:wink:


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Agree with your post LBM, but...



LittleBayMare said:


> Positive punishment can work on humans. 99% of the time it will not work with horses as horses do not have the capacity to connect a previous action with the current punishment.


If we're speaking in strictly behavioural terms, that 'hiatus' between cause and effect is not part of the definition of punishment.



> On the subject of warnings, 99% of the time I have found them ineffective. Occasionally, once the horse is fully trained, it may only need a warning before it anticipates correction


Of course, acting on warnings implies the horse understands the warning, which implies it has been trained to do so. Horses arguably understand none of our symbols, verbal or otherwise, without associating them with something... concrete. In the same way as you 'train' a horse to respond to a bridging signal for positive reinforcement - a clicker, the word 'Good!' or such, you can 'make' conditioned punishers. For eg. pairing the word 'Uh-uh!' with actual punishment, my horses learn that it is something to avoid, something that means Wrong Answer. I can call 'uh-uh!' at a distance and my horse will(generally... alas I'm not omnipotent!) stop what he's doing immediately & look at me.



> I think that too many problems in horsemanship are rooted in human baggage. We anthropomorphize horses too much.


Hear hear!


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hondo said:


> Can't be punishment if it's applied before the fact. I think making them run in the round pen is just plain ole harassment. Or did I misunderstand something?


Oh, it sounds like you understand well enough:wink: just that people who do it do not(??Always??) intend it in that way:wink:



> One thing I also wonder about is being fair to a horse. I understand the concept of being fair to people but what is a horse's concept of fair?


:lol:

Afraid I don't think 'horse' that well, and in absence of information to the contrary, all I can do is be anthropomorphic on that one!:lol:



> what is the difference, if there is any, between training and teaching?


And could it be that's a bit of overthinking?:lol: IMO no difference. And while some teachers & parents have been horrified to hear me say, I train my kids according to the same basic principles as I teach my animals... except for that dastardly '3 second rule' question.:wink:


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Interesting reading!

if you know and understand animals, stopping something _before_ it happens earns faster respect from the horse.

A friend bred a lovely warm blood filly. The mare was useless as a mother and never discipline end the foal at a month old it was keeping the dam away from hard feed and the mare accepted it. 
Owner was green, she too thought foal antics were funny. Very different by the time the mare was three years old. 
She came to me and was turned out with the five brood mares and foals. They taught her a lot but she had no human respect. 
I started her lungeing, what a challenge she was, smart spoiled filly. For the first time she met someone who was more determined than her. There were hard but fair corrections, lunge whip hard across her front legs when she decided to charge me, and across her back legs when she tried reversing into me. 
It was a matter of letting her try all the tricks and learning that I had read the book. 

After she was sweating profusely. I went to get buckets of hot water, the owner was holding her. 
When I came back with the third bucket, the owner and her daughter had started bathing her. The owner was thrilled that she could do this without a fight. Her remarks was., "She is being so good!"
I didn't think so as the buckets were at one end of the yard and they had moved to the other. 
I brought her back to where the buckets were and held her. I watched her knees, the moment she put the weight on one leg and unlocked the other knee, I wriggled the rope and put a little pressure on the nose with the halter. The filly couldn't work out how I knew she was thinking about moving off. 

That was the end of problems between her and me. She became a different horse and a happier one. There were corrections as we progressed but usually a word or a 'that look' was enough. 

Training is an art. We all learn as we go along, we all make mistakes and should learn from them. Some people will never 'get it' some are naturals.

Animals do 'talk' to us, it is a matter of learning what they are saying. Monty Roberts professes to speak the language Equss, I say 'listen to the language Equss' 

A horse at is bad tempered and difficult is that was for a reason. It could be a pain issue or it could be just because it has the responsibility of leadership over the human.

Corrections should be instant, they should be automatic, instinctive and with no malice or temper involved. 

The one thing I do agree with Monty Roberts is that the trainer's heart rate should never change.

I have ordered Temple Grandin's book, Thinking in Pictures. It is, from what I can find out, more about autism, something I have always been interested in. I am a great believer in thinking in pictures with animals, horses in particular. I have experimented with doing this on many occasions and it seems to work.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Smilie said:


> Well, finally we agree at some level!


I think we agree at very many levels actually, far more than we disagree on, and I for one, find it interesting and productive to have a great discussion/debate with people of opposing views too!:wink: I've found that whether my views are changed or not, considering 'the other side' objectively really helps me understand the 'whys & wherefores', as well as giving me other tactics, other ways to perceive things. 

Learning about c/t was one of 'the other sides' for me initially, that I thought was... phooeyness:lol: but sort of tried it as a game... & in learning the *principles* behind it, totally changed my opinion & sent me to studying behavioural training further. I've found it a really helpful 'complimentary' training 'technique'... or is negative reinforcement complimentary to _it_??:?



> Just as a side note, I attended the Mane Event today, and actually took in a clinic , given by Linda Parelli, which followed the one by Doug Millholland.
> I was actually quite impressed, as she blends her classical dressage background with NH


See, EVEN-P) Linda's got some good points to get across. And Monty's even got one! ^^:lol: But as with TG, no one's opinions are infallible or should be accepted blindly, no matter how brilliant or otherwise they may seem. Just because, IME I've seen/heard LP say some... interesting things(like 'quick! quick! throw me a treat to give her - did you see what she did? I've got to reward it before it's too late!':neutral And of course, just because TG has impressed so many & been so insightful on so many levels, doesn't mean she's always right. And yes, a lot of her statements are 'off the wall'... of her autism, but IMO really worth pondering... whether you accept them or not. One plus about TG is knowing there's no 'hidden agenda', knowing it's not 'for show', because I don't believe she's capable of that. What she gives is straight down the line what she believes, generally based on sound experience & reasoning... albeit very different reasoning to most of us.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Phew! I've caught up with the thread!


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Funny thing about the above mentioned filly, I hadn't seen her in a good two years. I met them at a show and the horse was refusing, in a very determined manner, to load into the horsebox. They had been trying for over an hour.

I was asked to go assist. I wandered over, the mare was standing there with a very determined look on her face, she was not afraid, just being difficult. I spoke to the owner who was holding her who was surprised but relieved to see me. We spoke and the mare moved towards me to push me out the way, I just poked her in the neck with a finger, she looked and just walked up the ramp, butter wouldn't melt in her mouth! 

They aren't stupid.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> Funny thing about the above mentioned filly, I hadn't seen her in a good two years. I met them at a show and the horse was refusing, in a very determined manner, to load into the horsebox. They had been trying for over an hour.
> 
> I was asked to go assist. I wandered over, the mare was standing there with a very determined look on her face, she was not afraid, just being difficult. I spoke to the owner who was holding her who was surprised but relieved to see me. We spoke and the mare moved towards me to push me out the way, I just poked her in the neck with a finger, she looked and just walked up the ramp, butter wouldn't melt in her mouth!
> 
> They aren't stupid.


Interesting story. I recently saw two men trying to pull a horse out of a trailer at the vets. The vet finally walked over, took the rope, turned the horse around and backed him easily out of the trailer.

But I've got a question about, "just being difficult". I know people do that. I'm at times guilty of it myself. But do horses do stuff just to be difficult? Just because? It seems there is a mental process associated with being difficult just to be difficult that horses would not have. But as I'm fond of repeating, I'm new to horses, mostly.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I don't think horses are difficult just to cause you grief. Sometimes they just don't see what's in it for them by complying. That's why making the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult works.

I also think that in your above example as with the one where I was able to move the horse easily out after his owner could not, that our emotions play a role in the horse's response or non response. 

No anthropomorphism or magical thinking to it. Horses read body language very well, people communicate more than they realize through body language, even when they are trying very hard to cover it up (just ask a professional poker player). 

So when you think your horse is just being "difficult" look at your emotions. Are you in a place of calm or are you pressed for time, frustrated, angry or nervous? . 

One of the things that people have said about Tom Dorrance is that he was a very "Zen-like" person. He had a peace about him that made him absolutely magnetic to people and horses alike. I think even more than his methods, which are very valuable, it was his inner quality that made him an outstanding horseman.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

T Grandin , far as I know, never put any of her principles actually to work, esp with horses
I'm going to cross post this link, that I came across last night, when investigating the Claims on Hosenality that Linda P made, at the clinic I watched.It is on science and horse sense

Science and Horse Sense

Conclusion

In the end, science in the form of university studies provides just another tool for your horsemanship tool box. Just because the authors have advanced degrees, doesn't mean they rate higher than graduates from the School of Hard Knocks.

So, read, listen, experiment, and have an open mind. The horses will tell us what works best.

The entire article is a good read, and also some of the comments submitted


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Hondo said:


> ... human predators...
> horses. They are all prey animals. We are not horses and we are predators. ...





Smilie said:


> ...
> Yes, we belong to the predators, but as such, we do not relate to horses so that they think of us as predators. That is why, for example, you do not just walk up to a timid horse, head on, staring-that is what reveals us to be predators
> We recognize horses as a prey species, ... but we do not try to ever appear like a predator to a horse ourselves, or why in the heck would they ever let up on their back?
> ...
> ...





loosie said:


> Yeah, focus hard on him & walk directly at him with a halter 'hidden' behind your back! ...or circle shiftily around them pretending not to be interested, before closing fast on them as soon as their attention is off you. Had to include that, as one not uncommon tactic, that along with 'Join Up'(depending how it's done) that is a very predatory behaviour. I do think that horses have many innately 'prey' behaviours/reactions/attitudes and we have some innately predatory ones, and it can indeed get in the way if we're not careful to deactivate 'auto pilot'.
> 
> 
> ... this kind of predatory 'round penning' tends to happen when a predator is chasing a horse in an inescapable environment. The prey animal will run & run, trying to escape, until he becomes worn out & hopeless. At which case he'll do things like drop his head, lick his lips, slow down, turn & face his attacker to 'submit', lie down & give up...


I am not educated enough to participate in this discussion; however, am reading and gleaning what knowledge I can of it.

I am really stuck on the 'given fact' that humans are predators though.

It runs through many, many threads.

I do not feel like I am a predator, I think I am prey.

I am a victim of Learned Helplessness via a 40 year marriage to an abusive, controlling man.

This very much describes me: "The prey animal will run & run, trying to escape, until he becomes worn out & hopeless. At which case he'll do things like drop his head, lick his lips, slow down, turn & face his attacker to 'submit', lie down & give up".

I met this man at the age of 19, never having been exposed to treatment such as this was totally unaware of what was happening. 

Now I believe it began with brainwashing. I did learn about it and recognized it for what it was well before the end of the 39 years; however, could not overcome it even after the realization. 

Retrospectively I do not think I had a predatory nature before meeting him. Maybe that is why I was a prime candidate for his game.

Why is it that humans are placed in the predator group?


----------



## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

I just caught up with this thread and I am with the above person I am not educated enough to partake but I have agree with Smilie on this one as I believe that if a horse even tries to kick or bite holy hell they better be able to run extremely fast!  
My TB at dinner time can be an a** in plain terms but he wouldn't even think to run me over or kick at me, he tried once and I just picked up the lunge whip and cracked it right next to his foot. He reevaluated his situation fairly quickly.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Anndankev,

Based on looks: Our eyes are forward facing, rather than side facing like grazing animals. Cats, canines, birds of prey, bears, all have all developed eyes situated at the front of the head. 

Based on smell: We generally eat meat, and smell like we eat meat.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

One last(or maybe not), thought!
I'm not a big fan of join up, nor do i use it, however, I have seen it used correctly, and when that is the case, one does not come across like a predator, with the 'deer in the head lights, or mouse at the feet of the cat' affect
You do not just chase a horse until it gives up, doomed to his fate
You show a horse that you can control the direction of his feet, like a dominant horse, and that you also are a fair and confident leader, that the horse can feel confident being with
Of course, this concept of 'join up, is used in correctly by many, but it is just an additional tool for a good horseman to use, in the right circumstances


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Anndankev,
> 
> Based on looks: Our eyes are forward facing, rather than side facing like grazing animals. Cats, canines, birds of prey, bears, all have all developed eyes situated at the front of the head.
> 
> Based on smell: We eat meat, and smell like we eat meat.



Yes, we at first look like a predator to a horse, as does our dog.
Yet horses , though correct handling, learn to accept us as partners, because we convince them that we are not the predators that we appear to be.
Why in the heck would a horse ever voluntarily allow us to halter them in an open field, if they believed we were predators?
Those facts you mention, are what first makes an un handled horse afraid of us, but through correct training and handling, we convince them that we are an entity to trust , even though initially we appeared as a predator to them, we condition them to think otherwise.
Heck, I have shared a balony sandwich and a beer with my horse, so the fact that we might smell like a meat eater, is rather a mote point.
If that conditioning and trust building was not part of handling and training, do you think any horse in his right mind would ever trust that family dog, happily going on trail rides with him, or even 'visiting' in the pasture?
My one German Shepard used to sleep out in the pasture,'guarding' those new born foals, while I was at work. Think those mares would have let that dog close, if they did not look past the fact that the dog belonged to the predator classification,a nd learned to trust that dog anyways?


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Anndankev, wanted to know why we are put in the predator category. And yes, training can overcome many obstacles.


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Thank you both. I do see what RC&D says about forward looking eyes and meat eating.

I keep thinking about what I have read on lions and tigers that have turned to man-eating though.

Naked and without tools, man is among the very easiest of prey.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

anndankev said:


> I am not educated enough to participate in this discussion; however, am reading and gleaning what knowledge I can of it.
> 
> I am really stuck on the 'given fact' that humans are predators though.
> 
> ...


This might upset many but, nature and instincts are what they are! It is most likely because you are a female. It was the duty of the male to go fetch the meat. Women were left to the 'menial' tasks, keeping the home fire burning, cooking, raising children et al. They obeyed the male of the family.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

My present GSD was known as Florence Nightingale in that if anything was sick she had to nurse it. 
One of her worse days was when we castrated four colts in the loose barn. They were all out cold and she didn't know which one to lay with! 

One of the liveries asked if a friend could come down with her 'very well trained' dogs. I said it would be fine.
Forst thing the dogs do was to break into a chicken pen and kill several birds. The owner couldn't catch any of them and they ran into the foeld and proceeded to chase the yearlings. My GSD was there and she knew this was wrong so, I thought she was joining in the chase but imwasmwrond, she pitched into the lead dog and really set after it. The other two ran back to the owner who proceeded to tell them they were 'very naughty' then turned to the livery and said that GSDs were always fighters. 

She didn't like it when I gave her a bill for the young birds her dogs had killed though she did pay up. 

My dog had never had a fight before or since, she was doing her job in protecting what she considered - it was her job. Just as she would protect the sheep at lambing time from foxes,


----------



## gee50 (Dec 31, 2014)

anndankev said:


> Why is it that humans are placed in the predator group?


My deepest sympathies to you.

Even though humans are predators, as has be described. We as social like pray animals {predator/pack : pray/herd}.

In every *herd* there is a _pecking order_ and in every *pack* there is a _pecking order_. If all is socially right with the pack or herd the alpha males and females will be established and so on down the pecking order; bravo, charlie, delta, etcetera.

Generally though when the time comes for the lower males to start challenging the alpha male (their father) they get kicked out of the heard or pack and become part of a bachelor pack or herd. This is natures way of limiting inner breading. The bachelors will also establish a pecking order. As the bachelors grow and mature that go around to other packs or herd far and wide. The alpha bachelor gets the first chance to challenge the alpha male of the pack or herd for breeding rights.

I hope that helps some. G


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Round and round we go!
Yes, we are predators.
No, we do not use that fact, when training horses, at least not those of us that train horse correctly, including the right way to use any round pen work, which does NOT mean you just chase a horse until he give sup, like a deer in the headlights, or a mouse that the cat is playing with. No, we directed and control his movement, in a manner that he understands as a herd species
A herd has a definite order, and once that order is established, members actually get a feeling of security, having a strong herd leader
That is the horse mentality that we tap into, while training him. We do not try and convince that horse, that we are an actual horse, just that we demand that respect and trust of an alpha horse, and when we work with that horse, he confers that sense of security and respect he gets form another horse to us.
If instead, his attention is on that other horse back in that pasture, his leader is not on his back, but back in that pasture, and that equals trouble!
In fact, through correct training, we teach a horse to control his instinctive prey reaction, thus dampening his natural flight reaction, which includes bolting and spooking. This is achieved not by using the fact that we are predators, but rather by the fact that we don`;t act like predators to the horse, thus gain his trust and respect through herd dymantic type of communication and boundaries


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> T Grandin , far as I know, never put any of her principles actually to work


Are you unaware that over half the cattle handling facilities in the US and Canada use her designs? I'd call that putting principles to use.

The main thing she is lauded for is doing stuff and putting stuff on the ground, not theory. And that's what she prefers rather than theory.

Large animal handling facilities have problems and call Grandin. She goes on site and figures out what the problem is and how to fix it. Rubber boots and a hard hat.

Yes, she has a doctoral in animal science. But she is one of the few that gets her hands dirty.

She ain't no ivy leager that's for certain.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Herd dynamics. Could be a new topic.

The herd I have been watching and interacting with daily for over a year now apparently have not read or are not otherwise up to date on normal herd behavior.

There is Molly, the current boss mare. Black and White Tennessee Walker. She pins here ears and runs at just about anybody anytime. Sometimes seemingly for no apparent reason. When she decides to go to another area to graze, all of the horses (usually) follow her.

But wait, there's DeeBee, a 15 YO gelding that's owned by someone not on the ranch. Sometimes he can be seen leading the entire herd. And these horses are not new to each other. Some have been together for 20 years. All have been together for over 5 years except the 1 and 2 year olds.

Now take a flake of hay and throw out in the middle of the herd. Won't be long before Turbo will be the only one eating on the flake. And without hardly pinning an ear. Turbo used to be the herd leader before he got older and retired. But apparently he still is when the chips are down.

Go get the flake and throw it down in front of Molly. She starts eating. Others are around her but her ears keep them at bay. Soon Turbo just sort of ambles over that direction and everyone just melts away and Turbo is soon eating again.

But Turbo never ever displays herd alpha behavior otherwise.

I'm becoming less and less convinced that the herd leader has the position because of respect or wise decision making. Plus no one wants to be around her, or him, which ever is the herd leader, or was it DeeBee?

Here's is what I'm beginning to think, the horse knows, hard wired or otherwise, that he must stay with a herd or he's likely to die. Same with the other members. They don't stay out of respect or anything like that. They stay together for the same reason human tribes grouped together. For safety and protection.

Within the individual of the group of humans or horses, there is a stratum of desires such as the best shady spot. the best patch of grass, the best drinking spot. And the horse with the greatest desire and I reckon the less fear will be the one to have those perks. They don't get them by being a strong leader or any of that. They get it simply by force or the treat of force.

Rather than respecting the so called strong leader, every single member of the herd wants that position and is ready to take it if the opportunity avails itself within their realm of abilities.

And the pecking order is not cut and dried. There are some egalitarian relationships that will share a flake of hay. And depending on the situation, Hondo will pin his ears at Reemee and Reemee will back off. In other situations the opposite is true. At other times they are standing head to rump grooming.

My herd just won't do like they are supposed to.

And I don't know if I'm supposed to act like Molly, Turbo, or DeeBee. I think I'll just be friends like Reemee and duke it out with Hondo when I need to.

Stop wagging yer heads :V)


----------



## gee50 (Dec 31, 2014)

Hondo said:


> Rather than respecting the so called strong leader, every single member of the herd wants that position and is ready to take it if the opportunity avails itself within their realm of abilities.
> 
> And the pecking order is not cut and dried. There are some egalitarian relationships that will share a flake of hay. And depending on the situation, Hondo will pin his ears at Reemee and Reemee will back off. In other situations the opposite is true. At other times they are standing head to rump grooming.


This is why I do a hook on with every new horse and ask all others to do so.


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Thanks to those who have considered my writing, and the thoughtful posts.



Foxhunter said:


> This might upset many but, nature and instincts are what they are! It is most likely because you are a female. It was the duty of the male to go fetch the meat. Women were left to the 'menial' tasks, keeping the home fire burning, cooking, raising children et al. They obeyed the male of the family.


Yes, I see what you are saying. It is too bad that this does not describe our relationship or family life. 

Many times on HF it has been written that regardless of method there are good trainers and bad trainers, good leaders and bad leaders; and agreed that there are some of each within every discipline.



gee50 said:


> My deepest sympathies to you. ...
> ....
> the alpha male (their father) ...


Thank you very much. Your writing brought up the memory of the strange fear my late-husband expressed of our son, in his weakened and disabled physical state after the accident. Our children are my greatest support during this time and onward. 

Our son was 17 at the time of the accident, suddenly the biggest and strongest. There was a time after his father had fallen that Danny picked him up, cradled him in his arms and carefully brought him in.

He had never 'ruled' our family with consistency, fairness, or honesty; but rather with meanness, force, threats, and fear. I wonder if he had been a good leader, if he then would not have had this fear. 



Smilie said:


> ... This is achieved not by using the fact that we are predators, but rather by the fact that we don't act like predators to the horse ...


I feel like my life experiences have given me a valuable tool in working with horses. I do not have to 'act' or 'not act' like a predator, I can just be myself.



Hondo said:


> ...
> 
> My herd just won't do like they are supposed to.
> 
> And I don't know if I'm supposed to act like Molly, Turbo, or DeeBee. I think I'll just be friends like Reemee and duke it out with Hondo when I need to. ...


Maybe I'm not so far off base.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> This might upset many but, nature and instincts are what they are! It is most likely because you are a female. It was the duty of the male to go fetch the meat. Women were left to the 'menial' tasks, keeping the home fire burning, cooking, raising children et al. They obeyed the male of the family.


Wish there was a place for this topic. I think it would be fun.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Are you unaware that over half the cattle handling facilities in the US and Canada use her designs? I'd call that putting principles to use.
> 
> The main thing she is lauded for is doing stuff and putting stuff on the ground, not theory. And that's what she prefers rather than theory.
> 
> ...


Not disputing her cattle hANdling contributions, but how many horses has she trained? Seen her ride?
How many stallions has she handled and hand bred mares?


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

yes, Hondo, herd dynamics change. Often that yearling grows up, and moves up in herd standing.Also, allt eh hroses don't watch who is dominant to who. For instance , A might boss B yet be dominated by a horse that B dominants, having not used extrapolation
a DOMINANT HORSE MIGHT ALSO ALLOW A LOWER DOWN HORSE INTO THEIR SPACE, to share food.
Some random herd member might decide to go for water, and have the rest of that herd follow
Does not matter, as long as I am the alpha in the eyes of all of the horses. I'm not trying to find a space in that herd, just have the entire herd respect me
Every once in awhile, a horse might even chellenge the boss mare, but until she is displaced, she makes her position clear, not doubtful
My 28 year old ex reining mare remains the boss, and horse shave come and gone, countless yearlings have joined the herd, after their first winter , horses that we boarded hav ecome and gone, and her position has always been absolute
Grant, that after raising horses for more than thirty years, having stood stallions, I have observed maybe more herd dynamics than you have.
I was there for 5 to 6 foals, born every spring, made sure they nursed, treated them, weaned them, trained them, integrated them into the herd as yearlings


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Not disputing her cattle hANdling contributions, but how many horses has she trained? Seen her ride?
> How many stallions has she handled and hand bred mares?


I'll research that. When I finish this book I do want to read something she has written on horses if she has.

As an early teenager she was sent to a special school because of hitting students that teased her. The special school had horses that she fell in love with. But when she acted out to her tormentors, she could not feed them, clean their stalls, or be around them at all. Privileges removed. ( negative punishment) It worked on her. She learned to go under the stairway and just cry in order to stay with the horses.

I do know she has horses now and has always loved horses. I can't imagine that she would have the deficit of experience with them that you suggest. But I ain't goin' anywhere, I will find out.

But all that said and aside, I'm re-reading her section on pain and fear. Fascinating! Most of the research she talks about has been done by others.

And remember, her degree is not in horse science, it is in animal science. But horses are animals and I just can't understand how anybody caring about or training horses could not appreciate and be moved by many of the studies and their results mostly done by others that she discusses in some detail.

I know you have at least a somewhat open mind otherwise you would not have gone to see her or went to see Linda.

I'll be back............


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Tell you what Hondo, after you have trained your first 40 three year olds or so, handled and rode a few stallions, we can have this conversation again maybe


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I'm baaaack.



















Nothing recent so far. I wonder if she is physically capable at this point? Did you know that one year Time named her as one of the 100 most influential people in the world? That is pretty impressive no matter what. And here we are looking for a video of her riding.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Tell you what Hondo, after you have trained your first 40 three year olds or so, handled and rode a few stallions, we can have this conversation again maybe


Well Smilie, there's just no way I can ever meet those qualifications. I believe, however, that Mark Rashid just may. And he believes that the alpha of the herd is the herd bully, simple as that.

Me, I'm just a newbie trying to sort things out from all the contradictory information from various sides.


----------



## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

Interesting observations Hondo, and they tally with what I've seen. It's not so simple as A outranks B outranks C and so on at all times. I've seen my guy in a few different herd dynamics. I have seen "alpha" horses, as defined by other horses yielding space and feed to them, that never had another horse within 10 feet of them and were perpetually nasty (chasing, biting, nasty faces, etc). I've seen other "alpha" horses with the same result who never acted overtly aggressive and often could be seen just chilling with others and looking relaxed. They still got the feed if they wanted it though! I liked the 'melted away' description because that is exactly it.

Then, at times, it's just not as simple. There are 9 horses currently in the pasture with mine. My guy always appears to follow the others and I would describe him as middle of the herd. But then, when I ride him down the field, three others typically follow him. Five ignore us all leaving and keep grazing (usually). He is certainly NOT the boss of at least one of the mares that always follows us judging by him yielding her space, but sure enough, every time I take him, she follows him in. She doesn't follow me around, but when I've got him haltered and take/ride him away, here she comes and two more follow when she does. 

Is there room for 'friendship' in a herd? In my naturally anthropomorphizing head, I just chalk it up to the idea that even though she's the boss of him, she likes him and prefers to chill in his company.

I very much like the four quadrant system. Positive = addition of something; Negative = removal of something; Punishment = makes behavior less likely; Reinforcement = makes behavior more likely. It is not very intuitive when you first come across it, but it provides the most convenient common language to discuss behavior issues and modifications.

I really have enjoyed reading everyone's posts. "Punishment" in common speak, the delayed ongoing action (like lunging a horse for 30 min when you catch him back at the barn after he dumped you out on the trail), has no usefulness in horse training. All it does is allow the humans to vent their anger while potentially confusing the hell out of a horse. This is the same way most people teach their dog (who is also of the predator denomination) to NEVER come when called, because as soon as he does come, they positively punish him (scold, jerk the collar, smack) effectively, in the dog's mind, punishing him for allowing the humans to catch him and therefore decreasing the likelihood of him coming when called in the future. In the human's mind, they're 'punishing' him for running away, but the human's perception doesn't matter. Only the perception of the trainee matters.

For example, I had a dog that hated being touched most of the time. For her, getting pet and rubbed on after doing something was actually positive punishment. For my other dog it is a positive reward. Same stimulus (petting), dramatically different perception and therefore dramatically different influence on future behavior. 

I don't think the greater concept of accountability is very useful either. The only thing my horse is 'accountable' for is basic functioning. Ie, keep all four hooves pointing down and the rider side pointing up, and keep doing what I last told you to until I tell you to do something different, and stay out of my bubble.

I like to think of the ABC of behavior. 
A is for the antecent, ie, the setup. What is the situation (other horses, location, previous trained behaviors, pain, health, hunger, flies, etc). 
B is for behavior, ie, what (physically) did the animal do. 
C is for consequences, ie, what happened as a result of that behavior. 

For example, A = in a fenced turnout, two typical horses that know each other, one bucket of highly desirable feed, no humans in 15 feet. Horse 1 has established history of dominance.
B = Horse 1 and 2 walk towards bucket. Horse 1 pins ears and makes snake-neck at horse 2. Horse 2 yields and stops moving towards bucket.
C = Horse 1 gets to eat all the grain = positive reward for dominant behavior.

Now, replace horse 2 with 'naive horse owner' and you have a very common, and accidentally trained-in and reinforced horse behavior.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Hondo said:


> Well Smilie, there's just no way I can ever meet those qualifications. I believe, however, that Mark Rashid just may. And he believes that the alpha of the herd is the herd bully, simple as that.
> 
> Me, I'm just a newbie trying to sort things out from all the contradictory information from various sides.



Not necessarily so!

A mare I had was a very passive creature. In twenty plus years I only ever once saw her chase off another horse. 

I would use her as a nanny to wean the foals with. I would turn her out with the mares and foals, within a couple of hours she would have the foals hanging out with her and not their dams. 

Feed time I would go on the ATV and put feeds out in a large circle. There was a pecking order but Madam never hassled to get to a bucket. She would stand back and wait until the last feed was out, then she would go to it and start to eat, the foals would leave sharing with their dams and go share with her. 
Once the mares had finished they would move around, the bossier ones moving the less away - all perfectly normal and anyone watching would say that Madam was omega in the herd. However, not one mare would ever try and hassle her away from her feed bin. They never even tried.

One time I fed the herd and as usual Madam was the last to arrive. Instead of eating she went to the bossiest mare and chased her off her feeder and kept doing so until all feed was eaten. I don't know what the bossy mare had done but she was sure being put in her place! 
Madam just kept hassling her, no charging or kicking, she only had to walk towards her with 'that' look and the boss mare moved away fast.

A maiden mare arrived home from stud with her foal at foot. At the time she was the only brood mare, she was very unsettled and possessive of her foal. I turned them out alone but mare kept galloping. 
In came Madam, when I turned her out with mare and foal the mare was protective, charged Madam who just moved out the way. Mare and foal galloped of to far end of field to hide behind a tree. 
Madam trotted towards them and then stopped to graze, turning her back to the pair. Ten minutes later the three were grazing together, foal between the pair of older horses. 

A few days later anyone looking would have trouble telling which was the dam unless they saw the foal feeding.


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi All!

Wow. Step away from the computer for a while and look what happens!



LittleBayMare said:


> I think that too many problems in horsemanship are rooted in human baggage. We anthropomorphize horses too much. Anthropomorphizing is fine when talking about horses as long as it does not actually carry over to our everyday interactions with them. I say my horses love/hate me and in a human sense it looks that way. However it is not about love or hate. If they look like they "love" me it's because they _respect_ me and see me as a worthy leader. An appearance of "hate" is simply a matter of disrespect.


In the book I mentioned earlier, Marthe introduces the term "Conditional Anthropomorphism".

There is simply way too much there to consider quoting in a post, but I will attempt to summarize:

"As we are both mammals, it is a rational approach to assume we are similar unless proven otherwise . . . Thus the challenge is to define differences, not arbitrarily discount similarities that appear to exist." And: "This does not imply that equine are _just like humans_, it simply provides a starting point for understanding them."

That is several very convincing pages of argument crammed into a short paragraph, so don't be too critical. I do think it is a valuable alternative viewpoint.

Gotta be a plumber today, or live w/o hot water. (Why is it a "hot water heater"? Were the water hot, you wouldn't need to heat it. Semantics ;-)

I'll keep after it until I get caught up; more later!

ByeBye! Steve


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Hondo,
What we think we know about herd dynamics comes from the observation of wild herds.

If we are to believe that environment affects behavior and that genetics (of which instinct is a part) affects behavior, then it would be logical to assume that generational domestication and selective breeding will also have an eventual effect on herd dynamics.

By changing the environment we have changed how the horse behaves to meet his or her needs. We have removed, for the most part, the role of stallions in a herd and often separate them from the mares and other stallions. We have created a third gender by gelding, in which the gelding is neither stallion nor mare, but something foreign to nature.

For the most part we have made the thirty miles a day a herd would wander to gather food and water, a necessity of the past. Some horses go their whole lives never seeing a wild predator. Sadly, some rarely see wide open spaces and are afraid of what would normally be their “natural” environment when they do. Yes, instinct is an important role, but as has already been mentioned, training/nurture can change the instinctual responses.

I have also noted some less than stereotypical behavior by my lead gelding. When he met the herd, he took over without so much as an ear pin. Walked right over to the previous “leader” who was a bully, and ate out of his hay pile. Said bully pinned his ears, tossed his head but the new leader simply ignored him and started eating. Like most bullies, he was all talk and no action and the new leader knew it.

At first, I chalked it up to having a small, weak herd. This same leader was able to squeal and stomp his foot once, and take over leadership position of a herd of 13 in less than a minute on the other herd’s turf. Again, no kicking or biting, though there was an ear pin coming in for negotiations. Walked right up to the previous leader and told him there was a new sheriff in town and it was done. Everyone went back to grazing.

When a mare comes in and tries to take over, he just stands there and ignores it. She can kick, bite and make the creepy faces all she wants and he just stands there (he was a former working stud). The best any of the mares have managed is a strange form of shared leadership during their visit. It truly is a weird thing to observe! 

In the human world we call it “charisma”, some leaders have it, some have to resort to other means to prove themselves worthy of the position.

Hondo, based on what I have seen over the years, I also agree with Mark Rashid (another Zen-like horseman) that there can be such a thing as “passive leadership” and that sometimes what the domestic herd needs is different than the wild one.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> Not necessarily so!
> 
> A mare I had was a very passive creature. In twenty plus years I only ever once saw her chase off another horse.


Thank you thank you Foxhunter!! That is exactly the "rest of the story" that Mark Rashid tells in his book "Horses Never Lie". He says there are usually at least two leaders. The alpha by force, and what he terms the passive leader which has confused some but he explains what he means is the leader that the herd CHOOSES as a leader.

Your description of Madam fits his description of the passive leader exactly. There is one of those in "my" herd also. Cloud Dancer that just had a baby. She was the aunt or whatever its called to every baby born on the ranch I'm told. She even saved the life of a non-ranch horse that got trapped in a field with no food or water by repeatedly coming to the ranch house and stamping on the porch until someone followed her on about the third trip. Then she stayed with the strange horse for about three days to protect it from the herd until it got strong enough to get around better.

There is just so much going on out there in the herd.

Cody was abused all his life by a harsh owner. At retirement the ranch took him in because of his love for kids and safety around a two year old on his back. I have never succeeded in petting him as he is shy from adults. Never the less, my four younger grandkids were here after Christmas and they all petted him.

When Cloud Dancer had her baby, he hung around right outside the pen she was in until the ranch decided they needed to feed him pellets because he would not leave to graze. And they have finally just turned him into the field with Cloud Dancer and baby Sage Heart. He just hangs around as close as Cloud Dancer will allow.

I have for a long time been fond of saying, "Dogs are people too". I may start saying horses are people too. Not really of course but so much more than at least I ever thought they were.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Hondo, based on what I have seen over the years, I also agree with Mark Rashid (another Zen-like horseman) that there can be such a thing as “passive leadership” and that sometimes what the domestic herd needs is different than the wild one.




Thank you. I will eventually have and read all of Mark Rashid's books. I have read the two I have three times.

I watched wild herds in Nevada for five years during 3 month stretches of camping. Mostly one herd during daily hikes. I didn't know what I was looking at but I did enjoy them. The stallion of the one herd was very curious and I could get surprisingly close while the rest of the herd would bolt and run before I got very close. If I were there again I'd spend a LOT more time watching. Sadly, one year the herd split. By the end of the summer all of his herd was gone and he was hopping on three legs with one front out of commission. I'm sure a cat soon got him. He was so beautiful. Nothing I could do. That's nature.

It is my understanding that the wild herd stallion only serves to keep other stallions away and serves no other function in the herd other than breeding.

Interesting stuff.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Poor thing! But as you said, nothing you could have done. 

You mentioned the curiosity factor, stallions are the lead investigator for determining when to run and expend energy or stay put. (or so they say) They notice everything. 

Two of mine gelded later are very curious and alert. One of them is quite the busy body always looking over your shoulder at the fence you are fixing or checking out something new in the pasture. He is also the welcome wagon ambassador for any visiting horses. Its a fun trait to work with for trail horses.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

mY point HOndo, while herd dynamics change, it is important that we always answer the question that horses pose , not just to each other, but to us, correctly
Horses will, at times, by their actions/attitude,'ask, 'are you still leading me (alpha to me ) While a horse herd member can be ambiguous to that implied question, give up their position , etc we must never do so.
Horses become un trained as well as trained, even faster, and why I am very particular as to who rides my horses.
Horses don't respect grey boundaries. The feel secure in black and white, but fair boundaries
Horses aren't born sour sour, nor barn sour. The are created that way, by inconsistent leadership on our part
Now I'm sure Gradin did fine riding a few broke horses, but that does not really make her an expert when it comes to training or communicating with horses
Actually, a wild stallion will bring up the rear, with the lead mare deciding where that herd goes. He will give the signal for the herd to move off, then stand there evaluate the threat
All three of our stallions were gelded late, as we kept daughters, and it was easier to change stallions, then to sell all of those fillies, esp since some were the ones whose attributes we wanted
After a year or so, they were integrated into the main herd, and while they at times remained the 'dominant gelding' rode like any other horse, and were fine out there in a mixed herd


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I ride where there are wild horses, and often on a mare
A wild stallion that has a herd, will tell his mares and foals to leave, while he stays back and assess you, before joining them
There are also bachelor studs, the ones that have been driven out of a herd by the herd stallion, when they get to be breeding age
Some of these bachelor studs are very determined to get a;woman', and it can be quite interesting, esp when riding a mare!. They will often follow you secretly, in the trees, waiting for a chance. 
My husband has had to shoot over their heads more than once!
Long time ago, I was riding a three year old mare, and at one point, we had seen some bachelor stallions following us, then they seemed to give up
That area has boggy ground, thus some small creek crossings are tricky. Hubby had already crossed, and I was arguing with my filly, trying to get her to go down into that mud and cross. Hubby noticed a stud, tracking us, waiting for me to come off!
Before you think I am just putting everything Gradin said, down, Hondo, I will explain where I am coming from. First, I think most of us lifetime horsemen read and communicate with horses just fine, and while there can be some new 'tools; one can put into that toolbox, from people like Gradin, there remains that it is only one tool, and as in any trade, the worth of that tool is determined not by riding one or two broke horses, watching aherd of horses, but by taking things from many sources , applying it to your own training program.
If you produce solid good horses that are happy at their job, that you can sell with a good conscience, knowing they are good horses,and when you have numerous people that have bought your horses, giving you lots of satisfied feedback, do you not think that you have proven your methods beyond theory?
Horses don't lie, and I think Chris Irvine actually wrote a book, titles that, and which I have
Do you think I somehow have a lesser bond with my horses than you do?
Think again! About a month ago, I had to put down a horse, my toe sons referred to as my third and favorite son
Einstein was born here, and he is buried here. He is a horse that I started under saddle, while on chemo, going through breast cancer. I think I rode him twice in the round pen,a nd then just rode him in the open winter crp fields. What thre eyear old lets you do that, esp while one is going through cancer?
I won't even list all the show awards he won, the numerous trails we rode together, how he was the horse that trusted me completely, enough to charge an amorous bull moose, when I asked him to
Due to some farrier screw ups, he was not completely sound for the last 3 years, and his then he got Cushings. Still, he was happy, giving my grandson the odd ride, and it was good enough for me, just to still, have him great me every morning with his whinny, able to touch him. I always promised that when life got too painful for him, I would step up to the plate and give him a good death
Luckily, the ground was not too frozen, and he could be buried here, although I had wanted him to have one more summer. I fed him all the stuff he could not usually have waiting for the vet. It was the hardest thing I ever did, so don't you dare assume I don;t have that great special comminucation with my horses, ever!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Cody chrome (Einstein) Supreme Member of the breed and best friend


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Now I'm sure Gradin did fine riding a few broke horses, but that does not really make her an expert when it comes to training or communicating with horses


I have not read or heard anywhere from anyone including Grandin that she is an expert at training horses or even communicating with them.

The book I am reading simply compares the autistic persons method of thinking, actual brain structure differences with normal people and similarities with animals, not necessarily horses but including horses. An insight in to how horses think. I'm not sure what kind of response or statement she'd make about communicating with any animal but I wouldn't be surprised if she'd just laugh or scoff a little.

I just posted those pictures because you asked if I had ever seen Grandin ride a horse.

Dunno, I'm certainly no expert, but I sure "seem" to remember Mark Rashid saying the stallion was not the decision maker for the herd moving. But the stallion did always hang back as you mentioned. Maybe he was just making sure I wasn't going to try and cut in on his harem?

There is a stallion on the ranch. I feel bad that he has to stay in a rather small enclosure but was told what he'd do if turned out with the herd. And if turned out in a small wire fenced pasture adjacent to his pen that is used for breeding that he'd cut himself up so bad that he'd have to be put down if there was a mare in heat but not with him in the pasture.

So I do know some stuff, have learned more, but I'd like to learn even more.

It's just hard when there are so many opinions.

BTW, I lie a little when I say I'm completely new to horses. Up until the age of 14 we farmed only with horses. I've raked hay, mowed hay, springtoothed, dragged logs to smooth plowed fields, drove a hay wagon with a team and ran a double shovel between corn rows. Sure liked that tractor we got when I was 14. I even managed to harness the team once by myself just to show I could. Had the team run away once when I left a string across the road with tin cans on each end (telephone experiment).

Sometimes I feel like I've come full circle back to where I started.


----------



## gee50 (Dec 31, 2014)

Hondo said:


> Dunno, I'm certainly no expert, but I sure "seem" to remember Mark Rashid saying the stallion was not the decision maker for the herd moving.


That is pretty common knowledge. I know I got it in equine science classes more than once.



Hondo said:


> BTW, I lie a little when I say I'm completely new to horses. Up until the age of 14 we farmed only with horses. I've raked hay, mowed hay, springtoothed, dragged logs to smooth plowed fields, drove a hay wagon with a team and ran a double shovel between corn rows. Sure liked that tractor we got when I was 14. I even managed to harness the team once by myself just to show I could. Had the team run away once when I left a string across the road with tin cans on each end (telephone experiment).
> 
> Sometimes I feel like I've come full circle back to where I started.


It's not called lying. That's called *disclosure* and *humility*. If I had to disclose everything I have done in my life with horses it would be a 500 page book. There would be another book on my firearms expertise that would read like War and Peace as well. My life's story is the size of a complete set World Book Encyclopedia books. No need to apologize for holding back on your life’s experiences. We all have something to bring to that table. It may sound off topic. But between the lines maybe it does have something to do with *horsemanship*.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The point being Grandin provided new insight into cattle handling, that if cattle were not just livestock, considered partners, like horses have been through the ages, ridden, having close association with a human, I am sure there would have been many good cowmen, that would have improved conditions for cattle, and been in tune with cattle way more then when they basically are considered just 'food'
What I'm saying, there are many good horsemen that are very tuned into their horses, on an emotional level, without ever needing to read any theories I like to consider myself among them.
I doubt Grandin could come close to communicating with any of my horses, to the level I enjoy with them
i ALSO GREw UP WITH WORK HORSES, AS WE USED THEM TO PULL THE TOBACCO BOATS I trained one filly , that was born to one of those mares to both ride and drive, at the age of 13-no books or any mentor of any kind, just an inborn love of horses
I started my first two horses under saddle also, that way, just determination , and without any knowledge of training
I was in my early thirties before I ever took a lesson, but then became hooked to learn more. It evolved from there raising hroses, taking clinics from any good horsemen and taking what works from many of them, discarding what did not
All the reading does not get you close to developing that real feel, both riding , training,and yes, communicating with horses


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, Rashid is not the only one that has observed wild horses, and maybe all stallions have not read his book either!. I really don't know whey we are even off on these tangent ,a s they have nothing to do with training horses
Yes, there is a lead mare, but I have seen stallions enough times,observe us riding by, give a warning snort, lead mare goes to the front, stallion drives any stragglers, then often stops to assess the danger, before joining the herd, bringing up the rear.
Stallions will also often breed their own daughters, and why we have inbred herds of wild horses, and will steal a mare and often kill any foal that she has on her by another stallion
What does any of these facts have to do with training horses, or our interaction with them?
IT DOES NOT MATTER, IF HORSES CHANGE WITHIN THE HERD, IN REGARDS TO THEIR STATUS, OR IF THE STALLION LEADS OR THE MARE LEADS, OR IF A MORE DOMINANT HORSE ALLOWS ANOTHER HORSE INTO HIS SPACE
when we use the herd mentality of the horse ,while training, we don't try to be a herd member, or a horse who is dis placed as the alpha horse, etc.
We use body language so that our position never changes, and we are always alpha to any horse 100% of the time. If you don't lead, the horse will. There are definite ways a horse establishes his position, and that is what we tap into, when training, and changing herd dynamics never applies to us-unless you all at once want a horse that decides not to ride where asked, decides not to trainer load, in other words, constantly questions where he will either lead or ride
End of story.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

You certainly sound like an exceptionally accomplished trainer, horse lover, and horse bonder. I am fully convinced of that.

I am puzzled why it is considered remarkable that a horse lets someone ride while going through chemo? I was through three rounds before happily submitting to being a guinea pig in trials research at Stanford University Medical School. I wasn't riding horses at the time but why not?

I did a very bad thing in my previous post. I quoted Mark Rashid as saying something about wild herd stallions in his book Horses Never Lie that he did not say. He did not even mention wild horses but rather the domesticated herds. And it was geared toward the training methods he preferred.

And when I say there is a lot of conflicting information for the newbie, I'm not talking about sources from inexperienced people. Mark Rashid is not a fan of make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard. He goes into some detail at the end of the revised edition in the chapter on herd dynamics. I just re-read it. I need to re-read this book for the forth time.

And now I have to do some research on the wild stallion as your belief is different than what gee50 has been presented with in his equine studies.

Very beautiful horse BTW. Hondo appears to have some Appaloosa in him by his markings but probably not much. But he is not beautiful or grand at all but he is my first and likely my last and only horse. If something happens where I do not get to see him for even one day I am worried and anxious until I do see him. I can't imagine having a horse that I like better or even as much.

You are particular about who you let ride your horse? Hah! Ain't nobody gonna ride Hondo I don't care who they are except my grandkids and that's only with me leading him.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo
There is a stallion on the ranch. I feel bad that he has to stay in a rather small enclosure but was told what he'd do if turned out with the herd. And if turned out in a small wire fenced pasture adjacent to his pen that is used for breeding that he'd cut himself up so bad that he'd have to be put down if there was a mare in heat but not with him in the pasture.

There will always be people that handle horse incorrectly-heck, there are even people that kill their own children and abuse them, so why so surprised?

We hand bred our stallions, because I would never risk turning mares with their foals, out in a mixed herd that I did not own. Thus , our stallion pasture consisted of 5 arcres, with a corridor in between his pasture and that of the main herd. he could see other horses, but there was no contact over the fence, messing around. A hot wire on top, does wonders for teaching even a stallion to respect a fence
Never had a stud hurt Sure, he might run that fence a bit, but smooth wire,a top rail and a hot wire avoids any wreaks. I could always tell when one of my own mares was in heat, as she would hang around the fence in the pasture opposite from him. No wreaks, with good fencing.
When outside mares were gone, often but a mare in with him.
Don't generalize between some poor example of a domestic stallion and how he is handled/kept and wild stallions
Last fall, we ran into alone stud, that either lost out in a stallion battle, or with an encounter with wolves His one back leg was all torn up, and he could not keep up with the herd
Can't help it if the idiot at your ranch does not know how to keep a stallion correctly! I also rode and showed our stallion, sometimes hauling him home ion the evening, if the show was at our local town, breed a mare and then show him again the next day. That, takes mannering-showing a stallion you are breeding with, in mixed horse sex classes!
Stallions should not just be penned up, with a mare thrown in with him to get bred, and he is just a sperm source!


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree that herd dynamics have probably changed to some extent but instinct will take over of the human does not offer the leadership needed.

An instance of this was years ago. We used a transporter to take the horses to and from shows. 
Three sisters all had wonderful ponies, they barely ever put a foot wrong.
The wagon arrived and the eldest girl went to load her pony. He went up the ramp, spun around at the top knocking the girl flying and charging off. 
This was totally out of character for this pony. Whilst pony was being caught the next sister went to load her pony. He reacted the same way, got to the top of the ramp and spun away snorting and looking afraid. 

I thought that the carrier had not cleaned out after carrying pigs, but the smell wasn't pigs but he had carried a lion to the local zoo. The wagon was clean, deeply bedded in straw and seemingly clean but the lion had obviously sprayed.

Those ponies were having none of it. They had never seen or been near a lion in their lives but some instinct prevailed and nature took over.

I fully admit that I am tough on my animals, I expect them to comply but I do like them to show character and to enjoy being ridden as much as I enjoy riding them. 
Just because we work with many and probably buy and sell several over the years does not mean that we do not get attached to them. Certainly some become greater favourites than others. 
I do know that I have devoted most of my life training and caring for them and not regretted many day - those days I did regret was when the rain was horizontal with a bitter cold wind! You cannot devote so much time for so many years without being attached to them.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Providing no one was hurt, that was kind of funny. When death prevails, nothing else matters.

I guess he got a good lecture about hauling lions and not telling anyone.


----------



## gee50 (Dec 31, 2014)

The smell thing was kinda what I was saying over on the Llama Drama thread. I found it hard to believe the horse didn't smell it from a long ways off. The horse only freaked when it came by the Llama.

Yep smell is big with horses. In the macro it's as sensitive as a dogs nose.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

gee50 said:


> The smell thing was kinda what I was saying over on the Llama Drama thread. I found it hard to believe the horse didn't smell it from a long ways off. The horse only freaked when it came by the Llama.
> 
> Yep smell is big with horses. In the macro it's as sensitive as a dogs nose.


Interesting. Yeah, I've heard that a horse can smell a man for miles. Forgot how many. Probably some versions are exaggerated.

A fence broke away last summer during the moonsoons and the horses disappeared. It was a breakaway section called a water gap. I still had Hondo and rode through the section and I just set up there in the saddle with loose reins and watched him sniffing the ground to find them. Pretty neat. I could see the tracks part of the time but not always.

I reckon I was letting him be the leader but I didn't notice him trying to take over after that. 

Cattle will track other cattle by smell also. Watched that not long ago.

Before being here at the ranch I was unaware of that behavior in either horses or cattle.

I always return Hondo to the herd after a ride so he doesn't freak out being all alone until he gets back to them and have seen him check if the herd went this way or that by smell very often. And listening for them. I depend on him to help me find them very often. He seems to know what's going on. He often gives out an almost human sigh when we get back to the herd. Like maybe he's afraid they might have left and gone somewhere else forever. But on the trail and at least 1.5 miles away from them he appears not to care where they are or if he ever sees them again.

I think I got off track.......


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, horses do know what a predator smells like!
Long time ago, when there were still Grizzly bear tags, my husband shot a grizzly bear. 
When it came time to pack out the hide, his horse would have none of that, even though he had packed several elk out
His reaction was, 'looks like you, but sure as heck does not smell like you' He let fly with both hinds and headed back to base camp. I didn't catch up to him until he got to the corrals, and took me another half hour to finally catch him. By the time I headed back up the trail with both horses, hubby had packed that hide out most of the way, over his shoulders. Luckly spring run off had not happened yet, and while the river was low, it was also very cold. You have to cross it several times
Hondo, why I mentioned that I trained Einstein while on chemo, is because obviously I was not exactly at my physical best, yet this horse was so good minded, that I trained him anyways-remember-platelets are low while on chemo, so does take a bit of trust on your part to ride then, esp starting a colt!
That is the connection to the entire thing.
There are many riders better than me, more accomplished, and I am never blind to that fact. Still, as in that one link I posted, there is a lot to be said concerning horse knowledge learned in the school of hard knocks, and that resource is every bit as useful as many academic studies.
I admit, as someone that worked in cancer research and general hematology, my mind has a more scientific versus artsy background, but I do read and use any additional info and try to keep an open mind.

Getting back to bears, i do have a funny story.When we were first building our horse on this 1/4 section, I had a mare in for breeding. When I went out to feed her that morning, she was staring intently towards the front of the house.
I had neither my glasses on, nor contacts in, so at first I thought, 'gee someone has a big brown dog in this neighhood! I started walking towards it, and then thought, 'too big for a dog, must be a calf! The animal raised it's head, and I saw that it was a brown black bear!
Bear took off running across the pasture, towards our woods, and the entire herd of horses ran behind that bear, as horses will, when something new comes into their pasture. All at once, they must have gotten a whif of what they were chasing, as they wheeled around and came running back, full speed!
Another time, while I was riding in the lead, i spotted a young grizzly digging at the roots of a tree beside the trail. None of the horses were concerned,seeing that bear, who left, but when they a passed where he had been and got a scent, all went on full alert!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Totally off topic, but if you wish to read about wild horse behavior and that of the stallion and lead mare-here you go

Wild Horse Behavior


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> What *we think we know* about herd dynamics comes from the observation of wild herds.
> 
> If we are to believe that environment affects behavior and that genetics (of which instinct is a part) affects behavior, then it would be logical to assume that generational domestication and selective breeding will also have an eventual effect on herd dynamics.


Just thought that bit needed emphasising again. What we THINK we know. :wink: And I do absolutely believe environment has a HUGE effect on social relationships. I don't think anyone would really dispute that. 

Ethological studies on wild/feral horses have found that they do indeed interact differently in different situations. Eg with/without predators(tho 'prey' behaviour is still 'hardwired'), with/without a lot of horses, in or out of the herd to compete with. And domestic horses, who also live in a variety of different 'environments' also interact in a myriad of different ways. There is no 'one size fits all'.

And don't get me started on the 'Alpha wolf' pack theory... Oh I've started already. To keep it short, the popularly accepted theory of pack heirarchy/dominance and aggressive/submissive behaviour came from studies done on wolves. I think everyone knows that. BUT they were not a wild pack, but captive wolves all thrown together in an enclosure. Later ethological studies on *natural* pack behaviour shows them to be far more 'diplomatic' and less strictly heirarchical or aggressive with eachother. 



> I also agree with Mark Rashid (another Zen-like horseman) that there can be such a thing as “passive leadership” and that sometimes what the domestic herd needs is different than the wild one.


Ditto. And just because something is 'natural' or 'unnatural' doesn't make it necessarily right or wrong either. To the people against hand feeding for the reason that horses don't offer feed to eachother, I say horses don't ride eachother either...


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Smilie said:


> Cody chrome (Einstein) Supreme Member of the breed and best friend


When God created horses, he painted the good ones!


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Totally off topic, but if you wish to read about wild horse behavior and that of the stallion and lead mare-here you go
> 
> Wild Horse Behavior


Not really off topic I don't think. Wild horse behavior must have some application to accountability and punishment, at least I'd think so newbie that I be.

And yes, I gave myself lots of shots in the stomach when my whites were too low. Once my nurse cleared me to participate in a motorcycle competition providing I brought her a trophy. Didn't come close. Yes, I can see how a horse would/could sense that and depending........

That was about 16 years ago and I am now officially cured of what was at one time an incurable form of NHL.

Lost my sister to breast cancer a few years back. Only sibling and one of my best friends. Will always miss her greatly. Glad your ok.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Here's a little herd dynamics from Mark Rashid's site. Didn't know he had one.

He connects it directly to training so on topic.

https://consideringthehorse.wordpress.com/2014/04/01/herd-dynamics-hierachy-and-behavior/


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> if you know and understand animals, stopping something _before_ it happens earns faster respect from the horse.


Not quite the same thing, but I have found when riding George that is almost essential to be able to predict his responses, and modify my expectations to coincide with these. The departures from my desired "path" were often large at first, but with time and practice the process has become nearly automatic, and as a result, George and I are on the same page most of the time. I attribute this to Relationship more than specific training. Additionally I find this process of "negotiation" works quite well with my horse, and is more productive than simply arguing with him in any event.



Foxhunter said:


> Animals do 'talk' to us, it is a matter of learning what they are saying. Monty Roberts professes to speak the language Equss, I say 'listen to the language Equss'


Like learning any language, you have to practice it. And practice, and practice, and practice. I have gotten to where I can understand equus (as spoken by my small herd) fairly well, and even "speak" it a little. I wish I could claim 100% comprehension, but realistically probably more like 70 or 80%. This has resulted in improvements everywhere in our daily interactions.

Steve


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> No anthropomorphism or magical thinking to it. Horses read body language very well, people communicate more than they realize through body language, even when they are trying very hard to cover it up (just ask a professional poker player).


Mine have _me_ pretty well figured out, anyway. Steve


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Smilie said:


> In the end, science in the form of university studies provides just another tool for your horsemanship tool box. Just because the authors have advanced degrees, doesn't mean they rate higher than graduates from the School of Hard Knocks.
> 
> So, read, listen, experiment, and have an open mind. The horses will tell us what works best.


Re "science degrees", probably considerably less. Observation is great, but putting theory into practice is the real teacher, as then we have an opportunity to learn from our mistakes. It is the end product that provides the definitive yardstick with which to measure success. Steve


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

anndankev said:


> I am not educated enough to participate in this discussion; however, am reading and gleaning what knowledge I can of it.
> 
> I am really stuck on the 'given fact' that humans are predators though.
> 
> ...


Ann, while you may be the mildest natured vegan in the country, your immediate ancestors are/were the most dangerous (and alas), devastating predators on this planet.

Barefoot and naked, your forefather sharpened a stick, killed the lion that was stalking him, used his skin to cover his nakedness, his teeth and claws for jewelry, his bones for weapons, and the remaining parts for dinner.

Civilization is a relatively new thing, and arguably is only skin deep in most of us. Predators we were, and predators we remain.

Steve


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Yes, we at first look like a predator to a horse, as does our dog.
> Yet horses , though correct handling, learn to accept us as partners, because we convince them that we are not the predators that we appear to be.
> Why in the heck would a horse ever voluntarily allow us to halter them in an open field, if they believed we were predators?


Smilie, I don't know how true this is; Even today, there are societies that both love, ride, and _eat_ their horses. I think historically this has more often been the case than not; our modern attitudes toward equine are, well, Modern.

Steve


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Hondo,
> What we think we know about herd dynamics comes from the observation of wild herds.


Well, remember; there are no more "wild' horses, only feral ones. How much did their long association with **** sapiens color their behavior? Hard to say at this point.
In my small herd, I am Alpha when I am around, otherwise my large gelding is. We argue the point once in awhile. Surprisingly, or maybe not, George seems to be the one who determines where on the property they are going to hang out.
So maybe you can say "In general, herd dynamics predict x, y, z.", but trying to assign roles within any specific herd based on this will likely prove misleading.

Steve


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

gee50 said:


> Yep smell is big with horses. In the macro it's as sensitive as a dogs nose.


Yea, and sight. George in particular has to sniff _everything_ when we go out. He would be a great hunting companion, as he is always "pointing" out deer, elk, bears, horses, hikers, bicyclists, ghosts, who knows. Sometimes I can catch a glimpse of the "wild" ones; more often not.

Steve


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi All!

Oh, yea; caught up at last. What a great thread!

Time to turn off my "link to the world", and get to my chores. Talk Later. Steve


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

george the mule said:


> Smilie, I don't know how true this is; Even today, there are societies that both love, ride, and _eat_ their horses. I think historically this has more often been the case than not; our modern attitudes toward equine are, well, Modern.
> 
> Steve


True, that feed lot horse can very well consider people predators, esp when they smell the scents at a kill plant, how could they not?
At the same time, I truly believe that if my horses regarded me as a predator, I would not enjoy their trust, nor the feeling of security they get in my presence, nor would I ever have shared those bonds, esp with my 'special ' horses
In fact, horses by their very nature at feeding time, before they are taught total respect, will treat that human like another horse that might eat, not them, but their grain, or pile of hay
They don't reason, 'well that person brought me the food, thus does not want it, 'Nope, if they have not learned respect, they will pin ears, threaten you, just like another horse that might get that food. They are not worried about themselves being eaten!
If a person that does not know how to relate to horses correctly, sure, he will reveal himself like the predator he is, but not one good horse person does that, or ever wants to appeAr like a predator to ahorse


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

george the mule said:


> Well, remember; there are no more "wild' horses, only feral ones. How much did their long association with **** sapiens color their behavior? Hard to say at this point.
> 
> 
> Steve


Good point. I remember one "wild" band I saw in Nevada had a horse wearing a a halter.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

george the mule said:


> Smilie, I don't know how true this is; Even today, there are societies that both love, ride, and _eat_ their horses. I think historically this has more often been the case than not; our modern attitudes toward equine are, well, Modern.
> 
> Steve


My maternal grandmother as a young girl moved from Texas to Arkansas in a covered wagon pulled by oxen. Don't know if they loved any of the cows but I expect they ate a few of those also.

Loved hearing he tell me stories of that trip.


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

My Grandma Hancock also moved by covered wagon from Minnesota to Missouri. I believe they used horses though.

She remarked that she wished she had not brought along the jar of sourgum molasses, as it broke and ruined the sheepskin coat it was wrapped in.

I now have the large wooden trunk that was used as a bed for my Uncle Cecil, also have his saddle, as I have written about it before. My mom put it up on an old Philco radio cabinet in the living room, and I watched and participated in many a TV westerns on it.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

anndankev said:


> She remarked that she wished she had not brought along the jar of sorghum molasses


I'd love to have some Sorghum. Haven't had it since I was a kid. Well, I did find it online but didn't order. Maybe I will. I'l like to see if I still like it.

We bought it in a coffee can sized container with a yellow label. I believe it may have been Yellow Bonnet brand.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Years ago I would have a group of six 'problem' boys come for riding lessons. They were aged about 12 - 15 years and went to a special school. 

One boy was brushing off a pony when the pony swished his tail hard to dislodge a horsefly. The tail caught the lad around the face and his immediate reaction was to kick the pony hard in the belly. 
I hollered at the lad and he jumped back, standing at the tied pony's head.
As I read him the riot act so I noticed the pony turn his head and first look at me and then look down. With that pony moved a front foot and stood hard on the lad's foot not only weight bearing on it but also twisting.
The lad screamed blue murder and I just laughed. Told him it served him right and he souls be glad it was only his foot trodden on and not a kick from a back foot. 

As he hopped around screaming the more I, and the other boys laughed, I told him that he wasn't as tough as he thought he was! 

Now that is what I call accountable punishment. I have no doubt the pony did it deliberately.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

In the end, we are not trying to emulate wild horses ,or duplicate the change in status in aherd, which can be a dynamic thing, as horse age, new horses are introduced ect.
All we are doing, is communicating with them, in a language they understand, which is used to establish alpha position within that herd.
Only difference being, far as herd dynamics, our alpha position must never be allowed to be challenged or usurped 
Whether you wish to call any correction punishment, consequences, ect, does not matter, as long as it is fair, clear, immediate, and then you treat the horse as before
One thing you will notice in a herd, even our domestic horses, that herd leader, once he has made his position clear, hardly needs to give more than a look or slight body language, to keep that respect. If anew horse is introduced to aherd, you will hardly see the top horses be the ones that are the most aggressive towards them. It is usually horses lower down, trying to maintain the position they have
Hardly a day goes by here, where there is not another post concerning an aggressive or disrespectful horse.
In the new post, aggressive horse towards people, I don't care what you wish to call the action, but that horse, when he charges a human, needs the correct punishment, consequences , or whatever term you wish to use, so that it is crystal clear to him he made the wrong assumption as to where he fits in the order of' things,' if you don't wish to use the word 'herd'
Of course herd sdynamics change, as soon as a horse , 'tests if that other horse is still alpha to him, and that is also exactly how a respectful horse can become dis respectful or aggressive. They asked 'are you still leading;, and you , like that dis placed horse, failed to give the right answer


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> Now that is what I call accountable punishment. I have no doubt the pony did it deliberately.


Hi Foxhunter, All!

A few months ago, I was trying to get Mandolin the Mare to move in response to my voice and a gesture. In this case I was trying to get her to step thru a gate into an empty paddock/stall. But what she _really_ wanted to do was go into the one behind us, to be with her boyfriend Oily.

I was standing at her shoulder, pointing at the gate; "Step, please, Mandolin . . ." When she refused to move, I used my hand to pull her nose around toward the gate, and repeated the request: "Step, please."

She stepped, all right; one big foot right onto my toe, and then shifted her not inconsiderable bulk onto it. Ouch.

A second or two later, she released my foot, and moved on thru the gate, but there is no doubt in my mind that it was a deliberate action. She had that look in her eye, and I could almost hear her laughing: "There ya go, monkey-boy." I had tears in my eyes, about half from pain, and half from amusement.

And here is an example of something I mentioned earlier: Reward the Good, and Ignore the Bad. I awarded her with an (admittedly somewhat squeeky) "Good Girl, Mandy", and a pat on the butt as she moved on past. After all, she had complied with my request, hadn't she?

So now, to drag this thread back around to the beginning, what about that "accountability" thing? While I dislike being stepped on, I _did_ ask for a step didn't I? And if I had chosen to correct/punish for it, how could I differentiate between "good, you complied" and "bad, you stepped on me"? Also by the time my aging brain cleared of the fog enough to think about it, it was far too late for an effective "correction".

So:
We have member Gee50's 1/10 second rule within which to craft an appropriate and effective correction. At the same time, we acknowledge that equine have excellent long-term memory; they remember other equine, people, smells, associations, _things_, for years, possibly all of their lives. Further, we have behavioral scientists (apparently) saying that correction = punishment w/o respect to the time factor. And then, we have "Conditional Anthropomorphism" in whatever context it might apply to the above scenario.

Sigh, I'm confused; guess I should be used to it by now.

I'm not even gonna attempt a conclusion, but I will comment that my "relationship" with Mandolin has noticably improved since the above event; I have a new respect for her as an individual rather than simply as an overweight and somewhat dull mare, and she has become noticably more compliant when I ask her to do something. We have become "friends".

Equine are way more complex entities than I would have believed before taking the time to get to know them as individuals.

ByeBye! Steve


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

If you truly believe that she stepped on your foot on purpose, there should have been consequences. If it was your fault in not directing her movement correctly, then 'suck it up'
No, you cannot just reward the good an ignor the bad. All you have to do is read many posts here, on aggressive horses, ignored, until they escalate their dis repsect.
One example, is that horse , not corrected, who went from using his 'equine thumb, when asked to do something, to charging the person, because he was not corrected
How about that stud, who tried to breed a mare, while led, getting hsi owner kicked in the head
Ignoring bad behavior (dis claimer, all pain ruled out ), results in ahorse that is declared to'have been so sweet, loves people, and now bucks, bolts kicks out at them , while lunged, no longer rides out, etc, etc.
You created that horse, by ignoring bad behavior. Sure, reward good behavior, but never fail to correct dis respect and an un willingness to comply to a request that he understands.
No need to be confused. You have to use black and white boundaries. That does not mean you are rough with a horse, don't have a great relationship with that horse, but it does mean that the horse understands 100 % boundaries and 100%, and is never given a reason to wonder who is leading who, in that relationship


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> If you truly believe that she stepped on your foot on purpose, there should have been consequences.


I gotta be wonderin' about that. Horse smart enough to step on your foot on purpose when you're asking her to step and she don't wanna gotta be one smart horse. I'm thinking ya might wanna treat her a little more like people if she's that smart. What was that $10 word?

Mark Rashid said the "Old Man" taught him early on, "If ya wanna fight with a horse, he's always willing to oblige ya".

I've had a couple of similar experiences with Hondo until he got ME straightened out. We are now doing sooo great. It's been a year now since we began doing our daily walks and all of my hopes have been fulfilled. Well, the most important ones anyhow.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jUst to be clear, that was not my deduction, but that of G the Mule Was not sure if your response was directed at me Hondo, or if you just pulled that at random from my post

I was responding to the words below, and George/mule wondering how to deal with said incident

A second or two later, she released my foot, and moved on thru the gate, but there is no doubt in my mind that it was a deliberate action. She had that look in her eye, and I could almost hear her laughing: "There ya go, monkey-boy." I had tears in my eyes, about half from pain, and half from amusement.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie, my response was undirected. Just wanted to observe that would be a pretty smart horse to make what was almost critical thinking and non-typical horse behavior.

And that my year with Hondo has me convinced they are in fact capable of that type of response.

I probably relate to training in some ways to my own past training. I felt pushed around and lorded over in high school. Might not have been, but that was my perception. I caused the teachers exhibiting that behavior as much grief as I could. Didn't have near enough credits to graduate after 12 years. GED, on to University of Arkansas where in those days they didn't care whether you even came to class or not. One less paper to grade. I excelled in that environment.

When I first began leading Hondo a year ago he seemed to balk harder the harder I pulled. Over time he taught me if I was patient he would come with very little or no pressure. Most of the time now the lead is slacked in a loop as we walk side by side.

I really do believe it was him teaching me to lead rather than the other way around.

I realize I'm talking to a professional horse trainer that knows more about and has been around more horses than I'll ever know or see, just talking about my perceptions and my experiences as I see them, newbie that I am.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> I have no doubt the pony did it deliberately.


And in this case, the horse was not punished but even applauded.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

This thread, can have some great application, reading both mine and Cheri's response to ;human aggressive horse., to kind of clean' cow webs' that keep popping up
In your case, Hondo, your horse decided to follow you, by you being patient, however should he have been a horse that has learned he could just refuse or even pull away, you have to follow 'be as firm as needed;
Far as a horse stepping on you, accidently or otherwise- I would correct him
The horse invaded your space, did not go where asked to go, as obviously, the horse was not asked to crowd you and step on your foot!
Possible end result, like a broken toe, is the same Keep the entire horse training simple, using the KISS application!


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I'd gone out with a foot long flexible plastic ruler to measure one horse's hoof length. He was encouraged to sniff this bright yellow foreign object until he was satisfied it was ok. Then horse decides to be a bonehead and kept yanking his hoof away. The ruler was handy for delivering a slap on his upper leg. He knew I meant business and picked up his leg and held it nicely while I got my meas. That is the first time in over 5 yrs that he's needed and got a little corporal punishment.


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi Smilie, All!

The animals in my care are all quite tame, and I try to work with them rather than against them as much as possible.

Mandy is the "youngster" in the herd; an ~10yo rescue from The Meat Wagon, and she is not mine, I just take care of her for her owner who lives out of the state. She has had some professional training, I don't know how much, and I don't know anything more about her background. She lives a life of leisure, and is mostly a (large) sweet, spoiled girl who is accustomed to getting her way. I think I used to date her older sister ;-)

She can be wilful, and I have had her threaten me with The Butt a time or two. She got a sharp smack with a lead, and chased off with "pinned ears" and an angry hiss. This was early on in our relationship, and once she determined that she couldn't intimidate me, she stopped doing it.

That was the only time I have seen her exhibit what appeared to be dangerously aggressive behaviour in the three years I have known her, but as I mentioned, she likes to have things her way, and will assuredly work toward that goal. Mostly she is a "schmooze", and will attempt to push the other animals out of the way to get my undivided attention.

Most recently, she has learned the "scratch my butt" trick from George, and has been refining that. In doing this she is quite careful about presentation, as she knows I will chase her off otherwise. Frankly, I find this rather amusing, and am more than happy to comply to a "polite" request. If the request comes at a bad time, I simply say "No, maybe later.", and send her off.

The critters in my herd are pets, and I treat them as such. Sure, I get bumped, jostled, and even stepped on once in awhile, but these are a more or less expected consequence of hanging out with The Herd with a brush and curry comb in my hands rather than a lunge rope or carrot stick. I only move to "correct" deliberate misbehaviour, not the incidental oops. As you suggest, I "suck it up". Different philosophy. And I am not a loyal follower of Monte Parelli, or any other popular body of wisdom. I have always handled my dogs the same way. And, FWIW, I use the same basic technique to teach fledgeling engineers. I outline the goal, and basic tool set available, and set 'em to a task. Guidance is provided as needed, but experimentation is encouraged, and mistakes are expected. And I avoid recrimination, If you break it, I'll fix it, and we'll try again. This has a proven track record with many students over many years, and has been very popular. Works with my equine, too, and they seem pretty happy about the arrangement. I don't really care what "the authorities" say, it works. For me and mine. Most of the time.

But I'm not interested in discussing training, I'm not a horse trainer per se, and not intent on taking up the profession. I'm interested in what other horse owners think about the subject of equine accountability, and Mandy appears here merely as an example. So wadda ya think? Anybody else have examples of their equine appearing to display associative thinking, or any thing else that might be germane to that subject?

ByeBye! Steve


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

george the mule said:


> Anybody else have examples of their equine appearing to display associative thinking, or any thing else that might be germane to that subject?
> 
> ByeBye! Steve


Temple Grandin in Animals In Translation, Chapter 6, subsection, Do Animals Have True Cognition?, presents information that appears to suggest that yes they do, although not nearly as advanced as in humans.


----------



## gee50 (Dec 31, 2014)

george the mule said:


> So wadda ya think? Anybody else have examples of their equine appearing to display associative thinking, or any thing else that might be germane to that subject?
> 
> ByeBye! Steve


I have not yet done an serious study of this. Nor can I give you a specific example of cognition. The closest I can come up, is a behavior I have notice with OTTB's as opposed to other horses. I have been in hundreds of stables, barns and boarding facilities. They like any horse, as soon as the hear someone coming, hover at the paddock door. They know treats are on their way. Most horses will go straight for you hands treat or not; very Pavlovian. If you have a treat. No matter what it is. Even if just their alfalfa they have spilled all over, boom they take it. Then maybe not the second hand full as they now know it's not a treat. (also a bit of cognition). Just their food. But OTTB's seem to be very discerning about the treats they eat. So as I have observed, they do go for your treat but only after smelling your hand.

My hypothesis is that with the large amounts of pharmaceutical race horses are given. All treated with fillers to taste bitter as safety procedure. The trainers and grooms have to hide many of the oral meds in treats. These horses learn this and first smell the treats to find out if meds are hidden in the treat before eating. As a side observation, horses are bilateral brained as they will always take two sniffs; one from each nostril.

This anecdotal observation leads me to believe horses are making an informed decision on what they are eating. Meaning they are making the choice first over and above what they like. A step above a Pavlovian response. This is an example of reasoning because they are cognitively by passing the Fight/Flight and Feed response or again any Pavlovian response. It may also be a thinking behavior (reasoning) horses use to a greater extent in their greater environment.


----------



## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Look up videos on the "world's smartest horse" named Lukas. He can supposedly count and stuff. 

http://www.playingwithlukas.com/


----------



## gee50 (Dec 31, 2014)

DancingArabian said:


> Look up videos on the "world's smartest horse" named Lukas. He can supposedly count and stuff.
> 
> Playing With Lukas ::: Home


I did look him up. Great videos. No doubt he is smart. But I'm not so sure about him counting. Actually I am sure. But I don't want to take anything away from his training. I'm very happy to see another race horse saved.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I read about the horse that counted. I don't remember if it was Lukas or not, but when the horse was shielded from seeing the person asking the questions, the horse could not answer. Or when the person asking the question did not know the answer, the horse did not answer correctly.

What it did prove is that this particular horse could read the tiniest details of human body language. In some ways, that may be smarter than being able to count.

Found it. The horse was Clever Hans. Got to wonder about Lukas also.

Clever Hans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Far as horses counting, just go back in history, and read about clever Hans. The horse could not really count, but that horse could read that very slight body language, no human can detect, and sense when that person expected him to stop, having reached that right 'number'
Yes, horses have very sensitive taste buds, and can detect if you add something to their feed, that they decide not to like, thus refuse to eat it.
Smilie won't eat her beet pulp,, if I add this one brand of Pro Biotic
On the other hand, horses eat poisonous plants all the time, if allowed to, and have dies doing so. Oleander is just one example
No deductive reasoning involved, or we would have no horses foundeirng, getting into the feed room
Many horses won't eat beet pulp at first, as it becomes an acquired taste for them, just like some foods for us
No mystery there, or any deductive reasoning. Also why I don't try to give medications like bute, DE-wormers or antibiotics mixed into feed
I horse gets a foot caught in a fence, and unless he has learned some foot restraint, from something like being hobbled, he will not think of the results when he pulls back, cutting his leg
With no implied dis credit to Grandin, but I have read enough research,attended enough seminars, done of horse behavior and deductive reasoning, by equine behavioral vets, that I know, far as horses, there are way better studies and experts out there , then Grandin, when it comes to horses, anyways


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Here's an article about Lukas. Sounds like he's got a different minded trainer.

Inside Track: World's Smartest Horse | BloodHorse.com


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Hey Smilie, we crossed posts. Got a question. Where have you gotten the idea that anyone, including Temple Grandin, claims that she is an expert on horses? I just have not seen that anywhere.

I do believe she is considered an expert on animal behavior, and when it involves mammals the information is transferable to horses.

But as far as any claims to being an expert on horses per se, I for one just have not seen it.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Here's an article about Lukas. Sounds like he's got a different minded trainer.
> 
> Inside Track: World's Smartest Horse | BloodHorse.com


There is nothing in that article that suggests deductive reasoning. Sure, you can teach a horse to paw 5 times, for example, when you say 'count to five, but that is nOT what was the basis on which Clever Hans was thought to actually be able to answer a mathematical question, thus actually show deductive reasoning
Here is the article on Clever Hans, who seemed to be able to answer mathematical questions, tell time and the day of the week, etc

The Curious Case of Clever Hans : Discovery News

What these types of cases show, is not deductive reasoning, but the high degree of slight body language some horses in particular can detect, based on the fact that they are prey species

As for Grandin, I read that book finally, Lost in translation' and I darn well know that some of her conclusions drwarn on what she saw /observed are all not correct in interpretation
Yes, she is noted for being a leading person in animal behavior , maybe tuned in more to animals, than others, due to her autism. The improvement in cattle handling facilities, were really a no ;'brainer' Yes, there are some solid observations made by her, but then, that is true of many other animal behavorists, some of who are actual equine vets that specialized in working in the field of equine behavior
Thus, as in anything, you read info from a variety of sources, versus just taking any one person's observations/research, as gospel.
I have to go back and read some of the condensed note books I got over the years, Form the annual Horse Breeders and Owner's Conference, where talks by the various presenters were written up in a condensed form
Some of those speakers, were actual vets that specialized in equine behavior and conducted tests to try and see how horses reason .


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Just another view, regarding some of Grandin's conclusions, from someone with credentials. He does not dispute the contributions that she has made to animal welfare, but rather some of her conclusions, that she based on her own autism

Do Animals Typically Think Like Autistic Savants? | Animal Cognition


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi All!

I haven't caught up with the thread, but Clever Hans started an online search that turned up this:

The Story of Captain, the Horse with the Human Brain

Long Riders Guild. Should have thought to check there.

and this:

George Romanes' procedures

In a link from the above.

"Nothing like looking for something to find it.", eh.

I have only just started into this material, which dates back to the end of the 19th and early 20th centuries.

But if you're looking for some light reading material 

I'll pass on some impressions after I wade in a little deeper. Steve


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Don't know if this story is an example of the type of thinking you are looking for. It is from a post I made in a thread about horses playing.

http://www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/playing-your-horse-546458/





> Some years ago, on a cold and snowy winter day, I went to the barn without my daughter and turned both horses out in the indoor for a bit. There was hay in one end, not completely blocked from the horses so I stayed to keep them off it.
> 
> Eli, my daughter's 3 yr old Appendix would not leave it alone. I got out grooming box and started getting Irish brushed. Near the hay and kept and eye on Eli, picking up training stick and sending him off when he tried for the hay. I was supposed to keep him out of his stall for at least 2 hours, according to daughter's wishes.
> 
> ...


She was one smart cookie, that is for sure.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Just another view, regarding some of Grandin's conclusions, from someone with credentials. He does not dispute the contributions that she has made to animal welfare, but rather some of her conclusions, that she based on her own autism
> 
> Do Animals Typically Think Like Autistic Savants? | Animal Cognition


Interesting, the author of the posted link, Marc Bekoff, vegan and ecologist, edited a book The Cognitive Animal. Haven't read it but it's available used for $3 on Amazon. The title seems to support animal cognition but like I said, I haven't read it.

Marc tends to dismiss Temple's contributions to animal welfare and even almost trash her but I have not seen anything he has done on the ground for animal welfare beyond wringing his hands where much of the world consider's Temple's contributions on the ground as being very substantial.

He wishes all cattle production stopped while she works to improve it.

Back to cognition, some of the things I have read, seen, and heard about horses doing things like opening complicated gates, removing halters from other horses, would almost seem to suggest some fair cognitive thinking.

On deductive thought, A=B, B=C, A=C, it seems there should be a way to design an experiment to test animals ability to do that. Images rather than language would of course have to be used. Maybe someone already has done this. Google may know.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Just because they don't think the same as us doesn't at all mean they're stupid. ;-) I think we have a fairly good idea how they think *basically*, but we don't even understand our own brains & minds fully, so... there will always be lots we don't know, can only ever theorise about.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

loosie said:


> there will always be lots we don't know


So true!


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi Ann, All!

Yea, I'm interested in stories of equine who seem to exhibit that extra spark of reasoning. As Loosie notes, it is difficult, maybe even impossible to really "know" what they are thinking, and how they relate past, present, and future events. Or even if they make a distinction.

Maybe all we can do is observe and try to guess . . .

I have had little hints of reasoning from my pets over the years; I had a dog who was very smart, and appeared to have a fairly well developed reasoning ability. But determining relationships between past and present, and employing these in an attempt to influence future events? That's an entirely different problem, and would seem to be a precursor for "accountability".

I don't know. I'm an engineer, and have dealt with "hard" science all of my life: "If A + B = C, C - B has to = A, and it had better do so every time under any circumstance, or the equality is invalid."

Psychology is not a hard science, rather being a study of probabilities, sorta. "A + B might usually = C, and C - A may sometimes = B, but C - B has never been observed to = A." Way different thought process.

I watch my animals and try to learn from them. The horses in my herd seem intelligent enough as far as "horsey" things go, but I have never really seen them do anything that would lead me to believe they have associative reasoning abilities. OTOH, I have seen George do things that make me wonder. Just as an example:

George and I were out for a ride in the hills west of us. We walked a couple hours and stopped to graze and get a drink in a grassy meadow. After a short lunch break, I cinched his saddle and went to mount. George did not want me to get on, but kept circling away from me; I finally had to be a bit harsh to get him to stand still. And then he was "grumpy", I could feel it in his gait; he was sorta stomping his footfalls. We rode out for another half hour maybe, to a nice overlook, and turned to head home. As I was likely to have cell coverage at the overlook, I decided to call my wife, but when I reached for my phone it had gone missing. I think I said something like "Dammit, George, I've lost my phone." while slapping at the empty holster. In any event, he looked around to see what I was jabbering about. I rather figured that I had dropped it when dismounting in the meadow, and determined to look for it on the way back. Maybe I unconsciously cue'd him, maybe not, but it seemed to me that George initiated the turn off of the trail into the meadow. And absolutely for sure, he walked right down to were we had stopped, and put his nose on my phone. I praised him, got off, picked it up, remounted w/o any issues, and we rode home.

All I can say for sure is that he knew the phone was laying there in the meadow. Did he act in a deliberate manner trying to "tell" me that I had dropped it? So it would appear. Does this constitute associative reasoning? I really couldn't say. Could George be held accountable for my phone? Don't be silly. But just maybe _he_ thought so . . .

I had the "circling" thing happen another time, while riding with a group. Rather than argue with George, I just performed a kind of dynamic mount and we rode off. When we got back to the truck, I found that I had dropped a glove. Do you suppose he was trying to tell me it was on the ground? We'll never know, as I didn't go back to look. But you can bet I "listen" to George these days. If his behavior is atypical, I ask myself "Why?". He informed me of a bear hiding in the willows by a stream one time; I would never have known except for his unusual cough-snort vocalization (Mulish for "bear" ?), and a distinct "point" with ears and nose. Sure enough. "Oh, I _see_ it, George! Thanks for pointing it out." The other riders retrospectively had noticed that their horses were uneasy walking past that point, but they missed seeing the bear. I _don't_ think this indicates associative thinking, but it does indicate Georgies willingness to communicate with his human partner.

Gotta go; more later!

ByeBye! Steve


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

The cell phone story is one for the books! Bet he got some special treatment when home.

Read the first article on long rider. Bunch more links to go. Great thread.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

loosie said:


> ^Just because they don't think the same as us doesn't at all mean they're stupid. ;-) I think we have a fairly good idea how they think *basically*, but we don't even understand our own brains & minds fully, so... there will always be lots we don't know, can only ever theorise about.


Agree. I would be the last to consider horse stupid.
Horses live int he here and now. 
Sure, they can play games, learn to do tricks, or we could not train them like we do!
I agree that there is a lot left in deciding even as to how the human brain works, and all kinds of examples how even those 'experts', are often deceived., or one theory replaces a concept that previously was consider a fact 
Heck, even research in the more concrete world of medicine, based on scientific studies, is often changed by newer studies. One only has to look at HRT and the latest stance on cholesterol, to see that fact, so why anyone would even think that the studies involving the brain are conclusive, esp in another species, is un realistic
Far as I know, there are no studies that show deductive reasoning power in horses, that stood up to close scrutiny, thus revealing the true factor at play, being the extreme ability that horses have to sense and read body language, that evolved as a survival ability, for them, as a prey species, along with the flight response
Prey animals even read the body language of predators. Prey species will graze around a watering hole, even with lions sleeping near by, knowing that those lions have fed, and are at that time not interested in making another kill


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think, George, you are attributing human thinking to your mount, adding 2 and 2 and coming up with 5!
Horses ahve excellent memories, and homeward bound is always afavorite direction, and given their head, they will re trace that route exactly. I have often ridden out in the dark, unable to see the trail, or where we crossed the river numerous times, but by giving my horse his head, that horse brought me 
back to camp perfectly, re tracing that route exactly. In fact, some horses, heading home, take exception if you vary the route!
About a year ago, on a ride, we passed the spot where we had camped with the horses for about a week, at least 5 years previous. Frankie, who had been on that ride, was all set to leave the trail and head for his 'home away from home'
Your mount wanted to go back, re traced his steps and then just looked down at that object on the trail. 
Do a test. Drop your phone somewhere beyond the way home, ride back some , so the phone is further back along that trail, and then ask your mount to find it
I bet he just continues on home, given his head!


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

george the mule said:


> ... Georgies willingness to communicate with his human partner. ...




Yes, Irish had that willingness.


----------



## gee50 (Dec 31, 2014)

I think much of the last part of this thread has gone the way of semantics as the first part of this thread did on the definitions of "Punishment and Accountability".

I think there is a difference between thinking and reasoning. Both of which come under the umbrella of cognition. I guess my word usage of thinking is probably bad though but the best I have come up with.

The absents of gray matter in brain means that an animal can't think. They are slaves to the 4 “F” (fight, flight, feeding and fornication). With gray mater an animal can think. It can make choices but via memory only. There are several types of memory. Most of us think of emotional or muscle memory. For an animal to reason it has to be given an abstract choice. A choice by memory is not abstract.

Going backward in thinking above using the brain stem. Just by habituation we can take a choice by memory and place it in a specific part of the brain. Like with the smell of food. You don't have to remember you hate Brussels sprouts. You smell it when walking into the kitchen you repel. That's the brain from the smell portion remembering without the message having to go to the mid brain first for processing. Just thinking of the sound of finger nails across the a chalk bored will make you shiver. That's the brain from the sound portion remembering without the message having to go to the mid brain first for processing. Michele Jorden had most of his basket ball moves set in his medulla oblongata without the need for the motor part of the brain to process anything. He just did his thing automatically. This is all Pavlovian conditioning.

Children below the age of 8 can't make an abstract choice. Most of us have had or seen a little one walk up to daddy and and pat his front pockets. Any 5 year old knows there is monies in there and there are quarter/s. The child knows with the shinny money they can get the toys or candy from the vending machine. But put a $100 dollar bill on a counter with a handful of quarters. The 5 year old will always go for the quarters and can tell you it's money and what its for. As for the $100 dollar bill. That's just paper. Now a teenager. Ah, they can reason. They don't bother to pat daddy's pocket's, they just demand the $100 dollar bill. Reasoning it the ability to do abstract thinking. 

Yep, horses are smart!!! They can think. It has not yet been shown that they can reason (I have my hypothesis). But by no means are horses dumb and as stupid as many folks think. I believe many horsemen don't give enough credit as to how smart horses really are and lean on to much equipment to do the job of riding.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I know that some horses are perfectly capable of reasoning.

One field we had, some distance from the stables, had slip rails with a safety catch to stop them sliding out. 
We would turn the ponies out and walk home from the field, often by the time I got home, one of the riding school owners was waiting for me to take me back to catch the escaped ponies.
The rails were always down. I knew that they had been put up correctly and thought it might be children letting them out.

I turned them out one evening walked off and circled round to see if anyone was letting them out.
The rails not only had the catch on but we're also tied.

About 30 minutes went past when one of the ponies came down to the gate, had a drink, went to the rail, flipped the safety catch up, top and bottom rain and proceeded, with his teeth, to slip the rail along. As they were tied it didn't work so, he set about fiddling with the string until he had the top rail untied and then popped the bottom rail with the others following him. 

He had learned how to undo the rails and when that didn't work he realised he had more to untie.

I did stop him by drilling a hole through the rail and post and using a bolt with a split pin he couldn't reach to undo.

I could have eight ponies in a lesson and one could be on the point of being naughty and taking advantage of the young rider. I only had to growl at them and they would square up and behave. Non of the others would flinch, so to me it seems that they did have a conscience.


----------



## Rancher6 (May 9, 2012)

My rule is, if a horse tries something that endangers me, I'm gonna get in his face and let him see what murder looks like. If he tries to kick me, I'm gonna kick him back with my 11R boot. It won't hurt him, but it'll surprise the hell out of him. There's a time to show them you mean business. You're the stallion or the alpha mare. Don't ever let them forget it. The herd is a hierarchy that respects strong leadership.

Are they smart? Absolutely, but not in the human way of thinking. You cannot reason with a thousand pound animal with hoofs like sledge hammers who spooks at the drop of a hat.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Foxhunter, 

We have a Houdini at our place as well. Sometimes (before we put latches that required opposable thumbs to work) he would open every gate in the paddock. At the time it required him to undo three separate pins on each gate there were 5 gates. 

Once he had the gates open, he would take a walk over to see the neighbor's mares, or just walk up onto her deck and look in through her windows (he likes my neighbor). 

Sometimes though, he would just stay in the paddock munching away, seemingly having had his fun for the day. 

Interesting to note, that if wanting to get out was his motive, he could easily jump the fencing, which he has also done on a couple of occasions, instead he chose to mess with the complicated gate latches. 

Since we put on the Prince Caspian proof latches, he has yet to venture out on his own, but now has to find other modes of entertainment like playing with the water hoses or running around the poles in the arena on his own (evidenced by his tracks left on a groomed arena). I agree with you that there is more to some horses than the simplicity of basic functions.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Horses have excellent memories, and homeward bound is always a favorite direction, and given their head, they will re trace that route exactly.


Yep, done the same even at my newbie state. My Great Pyrenees has also shown me the way home.

But here's a question. If George was just wanting to get back to the barn, why did he turn off the trail home and into the meadow where they had stopped for a break? Seems like he would have just bypassed the meadow and just kept trucking?


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Yep, done the same even at my newbie state. My Great Pyrenees has also shown me the way home.
> 
> But here's a question. If George was just wanting to get back to the barn, why did he turn off the trail home and into the meadow where they had stopped for a break? Seems like he would have just bypassed the meadow and just kept trucking?


He might have enjoyed that break, esp if he got to graze, or, that meadow was just part of the route in his mind
Horses don't just take the shortest route home, but rather the exact way they came
Sometimes, on a trail ride,esp in early spring, we have to sort of bush wack a bit, to pick up the trail, in places where it is either become over grown or washed out over the winter, etc, and we wandered off of it in one place or another, by accident
On the way home, the horses want to go that exact twisting way, as in their memory, that is the trail home
That meadow also could just have been part of that trail, along the way. We oftern ride through trees, then come out to meadows ect


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Foxhunter, I know there is a very fuzzy line between horses learning, by being rewarded (either getting out, or in my case, getting a grazing muzzle off ) and actual deductive type reasoning!
Horses learn that by playing with knots, ropes, latches, ect, they can get out, and many become very very good at this, and hense, I have heavy duty chain snaps on all of my gates!
I had to buy Carmen a break away halter, to which to fasten a grazing muzzle, because she learned how to remove the other type. I spent all last week, every morning, after her night time turn out, looking as to where she ditched that grazing muzzle
I watched her with that new muzzle and halter set up. Soon as I turned her out, she rubbed it against a front leg. When that did not work, she tried rolling
Our one trail horse, Frankie, would always un tie himself over night, regardless of what knot was used He never left, just got more grazing time then his buddies, who had to wait to be picketed out
Horses certainly learn by association, thus consequences.
One year, when I was breeding Irish by transported semen, she wound up needing many ultra sounds, and her uterus flushed, as those breeders managed to give her an infection. (THey would not ship semen, so I could use my own vet, but collected the stallion and AI ed my mare on site, using some flunky)
Anyway, Irish started to hate all those manipulations of her genital track. Since it was early spring, I started the diesel, before I went to halter her. She was always easy to catch, but associated that truck running, with being hauled for some more un pleasant tests' so left, and took a little while to be caught
So, is that true deductive reasoning, far as that diesel , hooked to the horse trailer running, or learning by association?


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Horses don't just take the shortest route home, but rather the exact way they came


Hmmm, Hondo and my dog must be exceptions. I generally drop the reins, so to speak, on the way home. I've found some good trails I did not know were there that way. Hondo will also definitely take short cuts. Meka too. Once I was so badly lost in the fog and clouds up in the Utah mountains I would likely still be there if it had not been for Meka. And she did not take the meandering route home.

There is one particular spot that I have stopped to let Hondo rest and graze off this one road. And I'm thinking....remembering..... and yes, he has often wanted to pull off the road at that spot to go graze. 

So that fits with your suggestion for certain. And a curious horse/equine that sees something shiny on the ground could easily look/point at it.

If he did really like that spot of grass in the meadow, as Hondo has his favorite spots to munch, that could also offer another explanation for the "i don't want to go yet" trouble mounting.

Hondo would do that in a minute if I forgot his nosebag with pellets in it but to do it for my cell phone would be something else.

Darn! I really liked that story!


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Reason; Verb: think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic

So what is logical?

When my little cousin was about 3 it was fairly obvious that he was smart (he was doing multiplication by this point), so his parents decided to have him tested. During the test he was asked where milk came from. He responded “a book”. The tester wrinkled her brow at such a strange answer coming from such an otherwise precocious kid.

After the test, the doctor pointed this glaringly strange answer out to my aunt. She then asked her son to explain. In his limited experience, living in the city and getting milk from a store, he knew that in a book his parents had read to him cows had given milk which then went to the store.

He had never seen a cow or been told that they are actually real animals. Rather than stopping at the cow as his final answer he was chaining together that since milk came from cows and cows were necessary to get milk, that ultimately when all was said and done, milk came from the same place cows did. Because the only place he knew of that cows existed was a book, that was the logical stopping point.

This was not an example of an absence of the ability reason but an example of mistaken premise within the reasoning based on limited experience and information. The very fact that he could not only reach that answer but then explain why he answered the way he did, demonstrated an ability to not only reason, but to take it into the abstract.

Sometimes what seems illogical or unreasoned, can be anything but.

When working with animals, you learn that what we perceive as evidence of reasoning, is not necessarily what passes for logic within the experience or knowledge base of the animal.

Having never seen the store from which I buy their feed, seeing the store would mean nothing to my horses, but they sure know what the crinkling of the bag and clanking of buckets means. 

If on the other hand, I was to take them with me to get the feed from the store, before transferring it from the bags, to the buckets to their feed pans, they would soon learn to get excited to see the store anticipating the eventual outcome. 

Anticipation is a form of logic and reason. A+B= C. It is however arguable as to whether or not is a form of inductive or deductive reasoning or a simple form of conditioning.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

But , you are riding from where the horse lives, right?In other words, they know where home is Maybe meandering was not quite the right word. Call it a trail, where it got faint in one place, causing us to look around to pick it up again, and on the way back, you could see where me lost that trail, but the horses wanted to go the way we came, they of course,easily adjusted, when reins were picked , to tell them 'this way'
I almost got to spend a night on top of a mountain, were it not for my horse.
On this particular climb up, you climb for about two hour , along a ridge , , through thick trees, until you come to a valley and when you climb some more, you are above the treeline , and can ride along the top, or you can climb some more, and get really high. Once riding along that valley, the beginning of that trail at the edge of the trees, is completely hidden
The great 'mountain man', other wise known as my husband, when it came time to go back down, was sure that the trail started somewhere between one set of peaks, but riding back an dforth and beyond, no trail did we find. I knew it is going to be darn cold up there over night, and if we did not find that trail soon, we would not be able to neogicate that tricky trail in the dark
I thus gave my horse her head, and she took us way further down that valley, unerringly to the start of that trail-thank Goodness! Warm sleeping bags, a tent and a fire in the stove!


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

One assumption that has been made and was also in the article Steve posted is that there has to be language to think deductively. Or maybe language is necessary to think at all. Seems I've read this claim elsewhere.

Well, part of today was spent figuring out how to re-run some plumbing in my RV in order to use an alternate water source without running it through my storage tanks.

Went for a walk thinking about this thread and thinking about my designing. I was thinking for sure and I "think" there was some deduction going on. I was needing to put in a number of additional inline valves, T's, L's, and additional piping. As I was figuring it out I was sliding the parts around in my mind with a T up here or move it down here then where would I connect......etc......and so on. I was not thinking in words at all I'm certain but I was deducing how the various options of connecting would work out best.

No words at all. Same as when I want to build/design something. I picture it in my mind and move stuff around. No words.

This entire thread has got me wondering what thinking is. I read a little about associative thinking but not quite clear on that or exactly what it means.

As I tell this experience I'm thinking in words because that's the medium I have to use for communication. But when doing it there are no words.

I'm not so sure Steve would need words or language to decide to go back after his cell phone. And I'm sure Hondo would not need language to go get his nose bag but he would go to it. So why wouldn't it at least be POSSIBLE that George would go back for the cell phone?

I know what reflective thinking is. I got an A+. But that's all on paper and with paper language is of course necessary. But in effort to observe the workings of my own mind, yes scary i know, I don't see language as being a part of even reflective thinking. As I type, it seems that to think in words would be exceedingly slow.

I've already told this story in a PM, here it is again.

Cloud Dancer, a horse on the ranch here, one day came to the front porch stamping her front feet. And then leaving. On the third time, she was followed by someone at the ranch. A horse not belonging to the ranch was trapped in a field without water and near death. Cloud Dancer stood guard between this horse and the herd for a few days until it was strong enough to join the herd.

Now that's gotta be some kind of pretty advanced thinking to go get people to come help. I can't think of a way to explain it away.

It seems to me, at this juncture in time, that language is needed for some forms of communication but I'm just not so sure about thinking.

I may need some help here. :?


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> The great 'mountain man', other wise known as my husband,


Glad to hear you pick on your husband too and not just Temple and I. :shock:


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

IMO language is any form of mutually understood communication between two or more things for the purposes of relaying an internal thought to the exterior.

So do horses have a means of communicating their thoughts to others? Yes. 
Now, can they manipulate that language to convey a specific thought of their choosing? Hondo, your story above makes me think maybe, yes. 

I am not autistic but I also think through many things in pictures. So I am not so sure about TG's suggestion that it is a thing unique to autistics. 

When I used to do choreography for dance and ice, I would listen to the music and see the routine completely in pictures. When my trainer is explaining something rather complex to me, I often look away from him and can see myself doing what he is describing (it took him a bit to realize that I wasn't being rude). When I look at redesigning a house or a room, I see it in pictures, right down to the color of the walls. When I was little and my father would read to me at night, I would turn the words into moving pictures in my head. 

Turning pictures into words, THAT can sometimes be a challenge!


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hmmm, reasoning. I'm inclined to agree that horses are incapable of that kind of thinking. Heck, I know many people who appear to be too! But there's obviously more to it than that, because what do you call it when they can work out if they do x y & z(when x & y alone NEVER work & z doesn't work without the others...) at a certain gate/situation?? 

I've had 'Houdini's' myself, and they usually knew also not to do it in front of people - I've had to hide & watch to see how they escape - horses that have learned how to crawl under fences, one that could get out of rugs with all the straps still done up(?!), one escapee who would put himself back in the paddock, looking the picture of innocence, before I arrived... a pony who would hide in the bushes beside the gate, or sneak to the other side of your car to 'hide' & wait for you to open it & get back into your car before she'd duck through & take off... Why do ponies in grazing muzzles, even if for the first time, wait for you to turn your back before getting them off??


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

& as for under 8yo's being... unreasonable  Sure I can think of many instances, but one to come to mind is, my young daughter looking defiantly at my mother, trying to bribe her into things with promises of rewards, saying 'I don't like chocolate(or whatever she absolutely _did_ love & want) Grandma!' Surely that's reasoning power??

...So maybe 'horses can't reason' comes down mostly to semantics too...


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi Smiley, All!



Smilie said:


> I think, George, you are attributing human thinking to your mount, adding 2 and 2 and coming up with 5!
> Horses ahve excellent memories, and homeward bound is always afavorite
> 
> Your mount wanted to go back, re traced his steps and then just looked down at that object on the trail.


Well, maybe. I would hesitate to argue that George understood anything I _said_ about the lost phone. "Blahblabla(IRRITATION)"; probably about it. He has seen me work the phone numerous times tho, both as a communicator and a camera. He appears to recognize my wife's voice on the "speaker-phone", and certainly recognizes his spoken name. He might have related my gesture of reaching for it in my belt holster to the thing it's self. He might not have. As I had already planned to look for it on the way back, I might have cue'd him to turn off the trail incidentally. Or he might have been looking for second helpings at the salad bar. Whatever the reason, he walked directly down to where we had stopped, perhaps 75 or 100 yards, and put his nose down. As I was heading that way myself, did I subconsciously cue him? Possible. However, the vegetation in the little clearing was knee-deep grass/wild flowers/whatever, and altho I expected and hoped to find my phone there, I didn't see it until George pointed to it. Could have just been next to an especially nice clump of grass, I suppose.

What I do believe is that George either saw me drop the phone, or found it while he was eating lunch. He either recognized it, or smelled me on it; probably both. He tried to tell me about it, but I mis-understood, and used a "Tone of Command" on him, both of which left him a little miffed. When presented with an opportunity to try again, and as I made no move to redirect him, he walked right up to the phone and very clearly "pointed" at it. "There it is dummy; I _tried_ to tell ya . . ." ;-)

I hopped off, retrieved it, and hopped back on without rancor. I also heaped lavish praise on "My Wonderful Mule-Boy", and delivered up a couple peppermints. George seemed well pleased with himself as we were leaving.

And yes, we had stopped there for a break a couple of times before; probably other riders do as well, it's a natural spot for one.

Re. Going home on a loose rein, George "rescued" our riding club from the fog last fall. We were at Florissant Fossil Beds National Monument, an area fairly unique in that all riding is (by park decree) done in a distributed off-trail format. We were off in the NE corner of the park, trying to pick our way homeward across the top of a pine-clad hill when a misty drizzle set in.

Visibility dropped to a few hundred yards, and it started getting cold. We were about to turn and retrace our circuitous four or five mile route back to the trucks, but G. wanted to keep forging ahead. So I let him, and everybody kinda followed along. "Go Georgie, Go!" He crossed the top of one ravine, picked his way down a second, and in perhaps a mile we were looking down into a valley, thru which ran the highway about a mile above the trucks. We had never been that way before, maybe he heard traffic on the road? Maybe he was following the passage of another animal by smell? Whatever, he was universally applauded, as just as we got down to the road the rain set in in earnest. I actually try to train for this by sometimes giving my guys their head on the way home, but always in an area familiar to both of us.

I love my little mule; he's a trip. The vet was out for spring checkups today, and she was early. While I was scrambling to get the critters into halters and segregated into stalls, George "presented" himself at the barn door for Holly and her assistant. They had him mostly done by the time everyone else had been corralled, and were hugely amused by his antics. But then he knows Holly; she has been his vet for five or six years. She calls him "Mister Mule" 

ByeBye Steve


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I am not autistic but I also think through many things in pictures. So I am not so sure about TG's suggestion that it is a thing unique to autistics.


I had those same thoughts yesterday. Gotta go back to see for sure what she says about non-autistic thought but I think you may be right. Do you have a book of hers?





Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Turning pictures into words, THAT can sometimes be a challenge!


Yes!


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

george the mule said:


> However, the vegetation in the little clearing was knee-deep grass/wild flowers/whatever,


I think I'm switching back to an inclination that George knew what was up. A cell phone can hide pretty easily in knee deep grass.

As far as George taking a cross country lead in the fog, Meka my dog can absolutely tell when I am confused about which way to go also and will take the lead every time. And if I say, "Let's go back", she knows it's time for her to lead. And Hondo has done similar.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> It is however arguable as to whether or not is a form of inductive or deductive reasoning or a simple form of conditioning.


Well, B.F. Skinner was famous for believing EVERYTHING was conditioning, a view he later modified after suffering some brain damage during a stroke.

I don't recall anything he said or claimed specifically about deductive reasoning but have been under the impression that he attributed ALL human actions to conditioning. Which I personally never believed.

So not only may it be difficult to determine when deductive reasoning or conditioning prevails in horses, it seems to be difficult with humans as well.


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

george the mule said:


> But then he knows Holly; she has been his vet for five or six years.


And he knows that she always has a cookie or two in her pocket . . . :-D

So I finished the story of "Captain" last night; I had only scanned thru the intro previously.
I guess one has to assume it is a true story; at least there are photographs.
I find that the author's viewpoints on animal/human relationship coincide with mine surprisingly closely. For those who haven't looked at the story, I include a segment:

>>>>>
Hence, I hail every effort, whether of child with its pet, shepherd with his dog, woman with her parrot, or educated scholar with his horses, to find the way that shall help the animal know his kinship with the human. Too long have we assumed that there was no crossing the gulf between the animal and the human. Man’s assumptions have shut knowledge away from him. Instead of “assuming” that the horse had no intelligence why did he not go to work scientifically to find out what he did have? Just as Sir John Lubbock experimented with all kinds of creatures as to their powers of taste, smell, touch, etc., only in a larger and higher way, man might have tested the intelligence of horses, and then sought to improve it.

There is too much assumption in human beings about most things, – animal instinct and human reason not excluded. What I wish to protest against, with emphasis and vigor, is the assumption that we know all there is to know about intelligence – that we know the limits Nature herself has placed upon its development, and that all efforts to foster further development are useless. I affirm that we do not know; that we have never, as yet, even tried to know; and that until men with loving, devoted, sympathetic singleness of heart and purpose seek to develop all there is in the mentality of all the lower animals, – dogs, cats, deer, as well as horses, – shall we begin to have a real foundation for our assumptions upon the subject.
<<<<<<

Also, to my even greater surprise, I find that many of Mr. Sigsbee's training methods are very similar to the way I interact with my critters. Hmmmm.

And the "scientific investigation" section employs many of the same arguments we have heard here, to refute the possibility of Captains "learning" abilities . . . I guess 100 years just haven't made much of a dent in the human condition :-(

I _do_ find the flowery, long-winded Victorian writing style trying, but the material addressed is well worth the effort IMO. And it's a fun story. Go there, read the story, come back, and let's talk about it!

I also started in on the material from George Romanes, but found it very difficult and rather unpleasant to read, both due to the density and language. I'm somewhat ashamed to admit that I failed my "reading comprehension" on this one. Maybe I will try again after a few beers or something.

One other thing I will share, altho it is totally off topic:
The above is a lot of on-screen reading. I started out on my Macbook Pro, which has a nice, bright, relatively high resolution 17in display. After about half an hour, my eyes were getting pretty twitchy. I also have an inexpensive Android tablet ($130 used from ebay), that has a very high resolution "Retina" type display. I switched to the tablet, and my vision problems disappeared; I was able to continue reading until sleep overtook me.
If you haven't seen the Retina display in person, visit an Apple store and check it out. Or have a look at the Asus/Google Nexus tablet; I think Walmart may carry them. These displays have a resolution of around 300 pixels per inch, roughly twice that of most laptop displays. The difference is . . . eye opening.

It's raining, it's pouring; the old man has to move his butt and get to chore-ing.

ByeBye! Steve


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Hondo,

Yes, I have one of her books, which has been read. 

And, you are correct about Skinner. The argument between the Behaviorists and the Cognitivists school of thought is an old one. 

Its relevance to horses is the following: if you don't believe that horses can reason, then don't waste your time on Cognition. Don't use the methods as the very nature of cognition holds that motivation for behavioral is internal and borne of reason vs. behaviorism believing that all motivation for behavior is external. 

The general consensus in the Psychological community is use what works best for modifying a particular situation; Behavior techniques work well for changing substance abuse. Cognitive therapies work well for depression. 

With animals, most people, even those who claim that animals are incapable of reason at any level, unknowingly and successfully use Cognitive methods in training the animals they work with. Again, do what works for you and your specific "patient', as it seems most people do.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> I think I'm switching back to an inclination that George knew what was up. A cell phone can hide pretty easily in knee deep grass.
> 
> As far as George taking a cross country lead in the fog, Meka my dog can absolutely tell when I am confused about which way to go also and will take the lead every time. And if I say, "Let's go back", she knows it's time for her to lead. And Hondo has done similar.


Certainly horses have a great sense of direction, and I never meant to imply that they can only find their way back, re tracing a certain route, but can, if need be, just follow their built in radar. They always know as soon as you head home, even taking a different trail, so certainly sense direction
We have wandered a bit off topic, but I do wisg to address my opinion, concerning the intelligence of horses.
Just like people, some horses are smarter than others. Horses are also smart, in a way they evolved, as a prey species, sot hat  some of their reactions, than seem 'dumb' to use, are in fact, very smart for horses.
A good example is a horse that shys when he sees something suspicious and runs, then either keeps going, or looks from a safe distance if that object actually is a harmless rock or log or the predator he suspected. That is smart, far as being a horse, as the horse that hesitated, became quite often 'dinner
Many people think 'stupid horse, that is only a rock'!
Of course, through training, we teach them to accept our evaluation of that object and thus dampen their natural flight reaction
Each horse owner can decide for themselves , what they believe, far as George and that cell phone, or a simialr incident. I would maybe go with th idea George looked for that phone on purpose, if treats were also there, but other wise, in remains a coincidence to me
I have a friend that believes in animal communicators-so in the end, what each of us believes, remains in part-faith


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Just read this experiment which demonstrates an ability to generalize thought that might or might not have application to punishment/accountability.

Can Horses Think Through Problems? | TheHorse.com

Quote/paste:

The horse is exposed to a stimulus, say, for example a panel depicting two images--one of an open circle and one of a filled circle. If each time the horse touches the open circle it gets a food treat and each time it touches the filled circle nothing happens, the horse will soon start going immediately to the open circle and avoiding the filled circle. The stimulus panel is presented over and over with the images in random left and right order and with all sorts of attempts to control any inadvertent cueing for the "correct" stimulus.

Once the horse is performing very well (always touching the "correct" stimulus), he is shown shapes other than the circle, each with an open and a filled example. So now there might be an open and a filled square or an open and a filled triangle. If the horse immediately responds correctly, there is evidence that the horse understands and has generalized the concept of open vs. filled to the different shapes. The horse did respond correctly.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I think that dogs have more reasoning power than horses whether this is from closer human contact or not I don't know.

I do know that one of my working Border Collies was a high scoring member of canine Mensa!
Working sheep she would never leave one behind, one day she was gone for ages, two other dogs bought the flock in but no sign of Pye. Eventually she appeared with two ewes, they were all soaked. Only later did a fisherman say that the two sheep were on an island in the middle of a lake. The dog had a problem getting them to swim back to the field but she finally dos it. 
Now this can be put down to both instinct and training. However that dog would never steal any food indoors unless here was a dog that wasn't a regular around and then she would take whatever knowing that I would blame the visitor! We got this on camera. 

My last horse was a character, he came to me as a bad tempered, nappy, hot headed animal that was difficult to do anything with. 
He had obviously seen the rough side of handling and was resentful. I listened to him and realised that not only was he misaligned but that he was not happy with his saddle. First time I lunged him and picked up the whip, he was gone. A couple of weeks later we had an understanding that corrections were fair and that I would follow through. 
It took me a month or so before he would allow me to go in the stables when he was lying down without him rushing to his feet. That day I knew I had his trust.

Other problems disappeared, although he appears 'tough' he was a bit of a worrier but that also stopped and he was relaxed. 
Once this all happened his character started to come to the fore and what a character he was! 
He knew when he could play the fool and when he was pushing his luck. I could throw his under blanket on, turn to pick up the top one and he would have pulled the first one off. 
There was nothing more he liked than to escape from his stable. He would wait until I could see him get out and trot out one door of the barn, I would follow him and he would trot around the barn, through the other door and back into his stable and pull the door closed. 
Many years ago I had a pony that would, when no one was around, jump out of his stable then let all the other horses loose! 

It took me a while to actually see him doing this and he had to have an anti weave grid on his door to stop his escaping.


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi All!

So I have been trying to decide how this all ties into the subject of accountability. George is a smart boy. Sometimes it is hard to recognize, and sometimes he is just a pain in the butt. In the long run, I guess I don't see why animal intelligence should be gauged against their interactions with us. Here is another George story from a few years ago:

George and I were riding to a really neat overlook of the Air Force Academy, maybe five trail miles south and west from the barn. We made it to the overlook, looked over for a bit, and started back. Just before the trail starts the sharp descent back down into the flat-lands, there is a sizeable meadow with a stream. After crossing the stream, we stopped to graze and get a drink.

When the time came to depart, George apparently decided that he had had enough of being a beast of burden; he snatched the reins out of my hand. bumped me out of the way, and set off down the trail toward home. Calling after him resulted in him kind of hunching up a little, like a dog who hears his name called, but decides not to respond. George kept on truckin', carefully holding his nose off to the side to avoid stepping on the reins.

I started after him, but he quickly outpaced me. I followed his tracks on the trail for about half a mile, and found that he left the trail where it crossed a ridge. I lost him in the rocks.

I walked on homeward, occasionally calling for him, but saw no further sign that he had come back down the trail. After about a three mile hike (in cowboy boots), I arrived back in The Hood. A neighbor was out working on his car, and inquired. I shared the story, and told him that I was tired, but I guessed that I would saddle my horse and ride back up to look for George. No sooner said, but who should appear walking down the road than Mule-Boy himself, still carefully dragging his reins off to one side.

I was torn between relief, laughter, and fury. Relief and laughter won, Dave and I had a good chuckle at Georgies "hang-dog" appearence. I walked up to him, picked up the reins, and led him on home.

I theorize that he knew he was in trouble, stepped off of the trail to hide until I was past, and then followed me on down. I've had a dog do the same thing in a similar situation.

I thanked George for returning the saddle, and promised him that the Purina truck would be there for him in the morning. I also removed his gear (all still intact), brushed him out, and put him back in the pasture with the herd.

Accountability. I do not believe now, nor did I then, that an animal can reasonably be held accountable for past actions. Even tho I was convinced that he _knew_ he was being naughty. I couldn't quite bring myself to find a carrot for him, but I'm sure he observed that I was glad to see him, and he was rewarded to the extent of being groomed and turned out to feed, water, and companions. What would _you_ have done?

ByeBye! Steve


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

In a word, same, no punishment. As stated in my first response to this thread, I do not know what the age of accountability is for horses but in my opinion they do not live that long.

Hondo will let me pick up his feet anytime anywhere, unless he is on alert and somewhat fearful at the time. He is less than cooperative in those times.

Once when he lost me during a wheel and bolt, when I went to remount him he started trembling with his eyes looking panic stricken. I led him until he was settled.

So this thought came to me about George's unusual behavior, perhaps he could have sensed something dangerous in the larger general area. Perhaps he decided for his own safety, he thought it would be better for him to be unencumbered for a while. And with a mule's ability and tendency, (or so i've heard/read) to fight off attackers, perhaps for your safety also.

Whatever the reason, I doubt it was a random act and I'd sure be hard pressed to punish without knowing the reason, particularly if it could have been for my own welfare.

Another great story from Foxhunter! I love hearing those kind of stories.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, of course, you were way past the point of correcting George for having snatched those reins out of your hands and leaving.
Had you reprimanded him when he caught up with you, he would have associated being caught with the punishment. Yes, a good time to reward, as he allows you to take up those reins and lead him home, thus rewarding the right thing
Of course, much better if you could have stopped him in his tracks for trying to pull away in the first place! I'm not one for ever advocating jerking on reins, but I sure would have tried to stop him, and then got the 'whoa' enforced
Sorry, Hondo, I don't buy your horse dumping you, so that he could defend you better!


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Makes me want a mule!


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

A girl I knew had a good pony which she ruined by being to soft. She had outgrown this pony and sold him and was after a horse to low level compete on. She found a very nice four year old that had been bred locally but had been very spoiled. He had been bought by a farrier who had him at livery with a woman who had been groom to one of the top UK even terms of the time.

The horse was bought and we went to collect it. The woman training it warned us that he had been very bad to load and she hadn't had time to work on it. 
We weren't in any rush to load this horse and led him from the stable to the ramp of the horse box. He stopped at the ramp and put a front foot on the ramp. He felt the Rose and the hollow noise and wasn't sure. I let him lower his head to have a look and he sniffed the ramp,
At this point he was, to me, saying "I'm not sure about this." I was giving him the chance to just check it out.
Before he could do anything, and I am sure he would have tested with the other front foot, the so called trainer, set about him with the lunge whip.

That was it. He was not having anything of it and was not going to go near the ramp.

The trainer was lashing him hard. After several minutes I told her that she could come and take his head I would get behind. I took the whip away from her and walked away to put the whip against the wall. 
I don't know what she did but as I turned so the horse was running back and double barrelled out catching me with one foot in the face. Funny what you think! I didn't have time to avoid and as the foot came at me I thought "He's got no shoes on!" 

I busted my nose and had a cut on my cheek and had been slammed back against the stable wall, seeing stars. 

The horse was put back in a stable whilst I gathered my senses and stopped the bleeding.
I moved the horse box and got the horse out. I just had the new owner holding the horse. He walked to the ramp and did exactly what he had done in the first place, one foot on the ramp. This time he was given a chance to walk up the ramp one foot at a time, he had both front feet halfway up and back feet off the ramp. I picked up a hind foot and moved it forward and in he walked as calm as calm can be. Took about ten minutes max.

The new owner worked hard with him listening to advice, correcting the ill manners consistently and fairly and soon they were becoming a good partnership. 
She asked me to go help load him when they were going to their first show. He loaded well. 
Some time later after several competitions I get a call to say that he wouldn't load. I went there and he was just being a PITA, no fear just trying things on. 
I picked up the lunge whip and as soon as he saw it he knew I meant business. He went to the ramp, looked at me and marched in. 
He had a brain and wasn't frightened to use it. He was testing and accepted that he was in the wrong and would take accountability for misbehaviour.

Some weeks prior to this in giving the owner a lesson prior to then going cross country, we had gone to a field near where there was a ditch running the length of the field. This was a brilliant schooling ditch as you could jump the ditch where it was deep and narrow, shallow and wide, on and off banks, ideal. 

The owner having often failed to ride her pony (what I called a wet rider) and I didn't want her to do the same with this horse that had a lot of potential. 
First time going into the ditch, the horse was slowing right down and the rider doing nothing. I really thought they were going to refuse so cracked my whip at him. His reaction was to turn and come at me! 
I had to move well back and realised that being green he was slowing right down to look hard at the ditch. He then popped it beautifully. 

I learned a valued lesson and that was to give the chance for things to go wrong before correcting. This horse would take fair correction but if it wasn't fair then he would fight all the way. 

The pair went on to win so many competitions, they formed a great partnership and the trust between the pair was something to admire.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> Makes me want a mule!


Me too!


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi All!

The above incident happened not too long after I got George, maybe the second summer. I don't think it was a fright response; he didn't depart at a run, just trotted off and left me standing. And then there is the rein thing. I've never seen any of the horses do that, but I don't ever recall seeing George stepping on a rein or lead while traveling. He was consciously keeping them off to the side.

BTW, "Reins"; we use a one piece yacht rope thing with clips these days. Would that be a rein, or reins?



Foxhunter said:


> The trainer was lashing him hard. After several minutes I told her that she could come and take his head I would get behind. I took the whip away from her and walked away to put the whip against the wall.
> I don't know what she did but as I turned so the horse was running back and double barrelled out catching me with one foot in the face. Funny what you think! I didn't have time to avoid and as the foot came at me I thought "He's got no shoes on!"
> 
> I busted my nose and had a cut on my cheek and had been slammed back against the stable wall, seeing stars.


Ouch. I would have had your "trainer" loading into the trailer. With the whip rather close behind her ;-)



Foxhunter said:


> Some time later after several competitions I get a call to say that he wouldn't load. I went there and he was just being a PITA, no fear just trying things on.
> I picked up the lunge whip and as soon as he saw it he knew I meant business. He went to the ramp, looked at me and marched in.
> He had a brain and wasn't frightened to use it. He was testing and accepted that he was in the wrong and would take accountability for misbehaviour.
> 
> ...


Foxhunter, Just Like That! The horse "knew" what was expected of him, he just didn't wanna _do_ it. George is an enthusiastic overachiever when it comes time for a trailer ride; If I am loading someone else, he will often climb in on his own accord; "OK, I'm ready! Where are we goin'?"
So when it's his turn to go, and he "balks" at the ramp, we both know that it's an attitude problem, usually resolved by a smack in the butt with the lead, if it even takes that much. George is absolutely accountable for his behavior.

Your statement about "giving things a chance to go wrong" has such far reaching implications, and is so important. And not just with animals, either  Arguably the most important part of the learning process.

So you think you want a mule? Over the years, George has become a very willing, and very . . . comfortable . . . partner, and, unlike my horse, he takes care of me on the trail. But it took a long time to get to the point where we are today, and our relationship is still evolving.

In retrospect, had I known how much trouble I was in for, I probably would have passed on the mule thing. I'm ever so glad I didn't, but there have been times, Oh My.

Just for fun, I have attached a couple fotos from a ride in the mountains last fall, at a place called Dome Rock. We stopped for a break, and I pulled Georgies saddle, and tied up his rein so that he could get in a good roll, and graze a bit. I trusted him not to depart w/o his "daddy", and he didn't. Quite a contrast to a _certain_ ride in our past. Trust. Accountability. Um, "Giving Things a Chance to Go Wrong". Building "Relationship".

Steve


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Sorry, Hondo, I don't buy your horse dumping you, so that he could defend you better!


Well, wasn't really attempting to 'sell' the notion. From the jist of the story, I was just wondering why George would deliberately do this just one time in the many years he's been owned by Steve.

I may be wrong, but I don't buy the idea that a mule or horse would just do that out of the blue one time. Sure, there are horses you'd better keep a tight hand on the rein when opening a gate and such when dismounted, but there has been no indication that George is one of those.

Hondo's behavior when picking up his feet when he is on 'potential danger alert' and the time he unseated me in a spin/bolt and expressed an increased abject terror when I made a move to remount him caused me to wonder if that could have had anything to do with George's behavior.

What would you put down for George's uncharacteristically taking off down the trail like that? Just decided to be cussed out of the blue?

And as I ask this question I am remembering stories of a mule on this ranch who's owner walked home more than once when his mule got away when going through a gate. But that was that mule's normal behavior.

Whoops: Just read that was early in ownership. Maybe he was just testing said new owner.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

george the mule said:


> Hi All!
> 
> So I have been trying to decide how this all ties into the subject of accountability.




I think that the discussion on reason and logic is key to the discussion of punishment and accountability.

If all behavior is the result of stimulus and response from external sources (no internal reason or logic is present) as strict behaviorists claim, then can there be a such thing as “fair” punishment or any expectation of accountability on the part of the equine? 

If the answer is that the horse cannot reason and is simply a product of stimulus and response (like a programmed computer) then the word fairness as it is used by people like Hunt, Dorrance amongst others, should not be used in context to punishment or consequence, since the horse is simply doing as it was programmed either by us or the environment. Whether something is "fair" becomes irrelevant and is replaced by "effective". 

IF, on the other hand, horses do possess some modicum of reasoned thought, then the methods used to hold a horse accountable and use punishment as a training tool, as well as the extent to which behavioral conditioning can be used to create a well balanced horse _mentally_, becomes an issue. 

This does not mean we start treating horses like human children but that in addition to training obedient behavior, we do need to take care to "consider the spirit of the horse" in our approach to training as Tom Dorrance once suggested.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

One big horse I had, a heavyweight hunter, come as a livery. He was one of th nappiest horses I have ever had and a horse that knew his own strength. Impossible to get clippers near, difficult to shoe amd generally a wilful beast of a horse. 

He was a bay horse with a small white star but he had white rings around his eyes.
Many the battle we had. He reared, he bucked, ran backwards and generally every ride was a battle. 
He never won once. I sat him out for three hours in the middle of the village when he refused to go where I wanted! 

As he was Fox Hunting twice a week he needed to be fit and, clipped. I learned that 'asking' him was better than telling him. I did by this time have his respect a d managed to get him clipped all bar the front of his face, after that he was fine to do all over. 

This horse had a heck of a front to him, a saving of my skin on more than one occasion! Despite all his antics I had never come near to falling from him. 
Once he was good to rode I could pony from him and one day was leading a young mare from him. As they were both a bit full of themselves I was out for longer than I intended and cantering across a field that was liquid mud on the track from where the cows had been walking in and out. The mare had crossed and was in my right hand, on the lower side of the track. We started to go down toward the closed gate and Tom had every intention of jumping it.
I was out the saddle and as I shortened my reins and sat down to get him back to me so the mare nipped him and shot forward so as not to get kicked when he bucked - which he did! 
His butt cam up as I sat down and to avoid knocking the mare he stopped dead. I was catapulted out the saddle. I must have done a handstand on his neck and twisted as I landed, on my feet directly in front of him with his reins over his head. 
I will never forget the look on his face. His eyes were out on beanstalks and his expression one of total surprise. He was as shocked to see me on the floor as I was to be there! 

That was a horrid ride home, the mud had splashed all up my legs and I was plastered!


----------



## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Geewilly, Foxhunter, you have the most exciting stories!


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi, All!

I got launched off of George, once, trying to pony my big TB Oily. Oily said "No Way!", and I should have quit there. I _knew_ I should have quit there. But I didn't.
I can trace my dislike of Western saddles (saddle horns) back to that moment 

ByeBye! Steve


----------



## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

I am glad I have a kind horse. Your stories scare me. My first, and rather accidental, ponying attempt included a wily and unwilling old gelding and me going to fetch him when he dumped his rider and ran home by himself. I braced my hand with the lead on my hip, and when my boy felt the resistance he paused. I could 'feel' him asking me what exactly this new feeling meant he ought to do and his hesitation. I asked him to walk on and praised him when he did.

My boy then cheerfully and determinedly dragged the stubborn old gelding a good mile past a busy road and a host of school children practicing soccer and lacrosse and football back to his rather irritated rider who was still hiking back on her own two feet.

I very much believe in 'giving things a chance to go wrong', though I prefer to call it, 'giving my horse a chance to decide.' If he makes a wrong decision, of course I will correct him, but if he has a choice and a chance to think, I find he is much more committed to getting whatever we're doing done. You have to set them up for success, of course, and make the 'right' choice easy, but it has helped enormously to dampen down my horse's natural spooky temperament. If he 'decides' to do/cooperate with something, he's FAR less reactive and fearful than if I were to force him even if the task gets done either way.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, it seems it is not unusual for George to get ansty , while being mounted, esp if he thinks he is heading home-so alittle of uping the anti?
Sure sounds like he is a mule that has learned how to travel, holding his head so he does not step on the reins. I think even a mule has to have some practice at that!
I am glad that he stuck around last time, and since George, is enjoying George the mule, or is it visa versa, that's all that counts
Happy trials George. at least you just have a mechanical hackamore and no bit, should you ever step on those reins, while deciding you would rather go home without carrying weight. 
Maybe Patchy, hubby's horse,at the time, that refused to have anything to do with packing out a grizzly bear hide, thus making hubby walk out carrying that hide, wearing cowboy boots, through some river crossings, sent George a PM from those proverbial greener pastures, and thus enjoyed one last horse laugh at the expense of us silly humans!


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I never give it a thought about pnoting another horse. I carry a dressage whip which, if the lead horse hangs back I can put across its back to get it to keep up if I am on my own, if someone is with me they just get behind it but this rarely necessary.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

george the mule said:


> Hi, All!
> 
> I got launched off of George, once, trying to pony my big TB Oily. Oily said "No Way!", and I should have quit there. I _knew_ I should have quit there. But I didn't.
> I can trace my dislike of Western saddles (saddle horns) back to that moment
> ...


Hubby came of his horse, first time we tried packing. We had our own saddlle horses, but rented a pack horse form an outfitter, who was located in the area we were riding in
After a quick condensed lesson on how to pack ah orse, we were off-sort of. First obstacle was a bog. Hubby did not have the lead rope dallied around his saddle horn, and since the bog faced away from the home corral of that pack horse, the pack horse put on the brakes, part way through that bog. Hubby's horse was equally determined to keep going to that opposite dry bank
Hubby was neatly lifted over the cantle of his saddle and planted in the mud. I had to quickly think of some serious event, to avoid laughing, when hubby got up and had a good part of that bog clinging to him, so that my peels of laughter would not end in divorce!
I actually wrote a story of some of those early packing experiences, which afford some good laughs. The scerary and adventure though, and a good shot of rye in the coffee,outside the tent, surrounded by wilderness, horses munching nearby, sunset setting fire to the mountain peaks, makes everything worth it!


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

If I had been there then divorce would have been on the cards - I would not have been able to stop laughing!


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi Sharpie, All!



Sharpie said:


> I very much believe in 'giving things a chance to go wrong', though I prefer to call it, 'giving my horse a chance to decide.' If he makes a wrong decision, of course I will correct him, but if he has a choice and a chance to think, I find he is much more committed to getting whatever we're doing done. You have to set them up for success, of course, and make the 'right' choice easy, but it has helped enormously to dampen down my horse's natural spooky temperament. If he 'decides' to do/cooperate with something, he's FAR less reactive and fearful than if I were to force him even if the task gets done either way.


Thank You. These are my observations from working with my animals as well. Working with George taught me this (kind of on a do-or-die basis), but I find that it works just as well with the horses. And this is another example of equine accountability, I think. When you give your animal a say in things, they seem willing to assume responsibility for "getting the job done".

And I don't mean just the big things, like finding the way home in the fog, but the little things like which side of the trail to walk on, or where to cross the creek. And sure, if you are competing, there is a certain format you have to follow, but once learned, your partner probably doesn't need you to lead him thru by the nose any longer; you can relax and enjoy the ride.

And George is accountable, I can trust him not to screw up in most situations; task him and let him determine the best way to proceed. My horse, not so much, but still worlds better than before I learned/adopted this philosophy.

My comment about being unloaded abruptly resulted from me issuing "commands", w/o the granted authority to do so  A management no-no as I'm sure you are aware. At least George stood by me, Oily put his tail in the air and made a beeline for The Barn. Broke the snap on his lead in the process, too.

These days I can pony either way; Oily/George or George/Oily. Just took learning the right way to "ask". (And learning a certain amount of "protocol" to be observed when ponying Alpha-horse from Gamma-mule. Think The Aristocrat, and the Street Urchin ;-)

ByeBye! Steve


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

There are times, I will let a horse decide the best way to go down or up a difficult trail
However, it is like letting to co-piolet take control, when you feel it is the correct thing to do, and quite another for him to seize control
For instance, crossing a fast flowing river, I know where the best way to cross is, which is always not the direct way to the opposite bank, and you only have e to be on ahorse once, that decided 'his way, is the way to go through abog, or cross a river, when you say 'hey buddy, let me lead here', and that horse instead plunges into deeper bog, or head where you know there is a deep whirl pool, and suffer the results, to know the importance of being able to make an 'executive decision and have your horse abide with it!
While there are many examples of horses given their heads , finding the best and safest trail, there are also a multitude of stories where a horse decided 'his way' was best, and to heck with that human on his back, where that horse blindly plunged into deeper bog, decide he would rather not cross that bridge, thus backed over the edge of the approach, ect
In other words, I get to chose as to when I give my horse the right to lead where we ride, never let him decide on his own, unless I myself am not sure that bridge, ect is safe, and also able to re claim that decision making, upon command


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I like to give Hondo the lead in difficult spots to see which line he will take. Invariably it is better for him than what I would have chosen.

Today however while going up a boggie area with three other riders and late to meet four other riders on a roundup with the neighbors, there was no time to look around for a really good spot as we do on our recreational solo rides.

On one boggie spot he indicated he would prefer to go up on the bank for that section. I said, nope, we stay down here. There was a sturdy 6 inch limb just a little higher than his back. Uncharacteristically, Hondo said, The hell with you Harold, I'm going up here and you can't stop me." I swung to the ground from the limb but fell with my hat rolling into the mud.

Point taken Smilie. I think Hondo will be going the way he'd rather not fairly frequently for a while.

They were using 2-way radios later and he wasn't real crazy about people talking in my pocket and later when were crested and saw omgosh people on horses with crazy looking light colored cows he went into the absolute fear crazed trembling.

My 14 YO gave me a lesson on riding a 2 YO green broke. He didn't buck, quite, and I did stay on.

I was told about this before I got him. Today he was so scared when he was just standing I could feel his butt quivering. I felt so sorry for him but there was cattle and 7 other people.

When I finally got him close to the cattle and he had something to do riding wing or pushing he did begin to settle down.

But oh man! I wondered if I was gonna get him to the barn for a while.

So yeah, I think this newbie is gonna hafta start taking charge a little more. Not heavy handed, just making more "executive" decisions that he disagrees with.

I found out a horse spinning, bolting, and bracing can cause one to be very tired when ya get home.

'Course when it was all over and he was happily munching in his pen it's like, " Hey Harold, we had fun today huh?"


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

When horses can feel like they are moving something, like cows, it makes them feel much more secure then having cattle run up behind them
We don't have cattle, so my horses only see them riding down the road. In the spring, when those young heifers are turned out, they love to come bounding and bucking up to the fence, as I ride by
If I an convince my green horse to go up tot he fence and I make those cattle move off, gives a big boost of confidence to my horse
Charlle was frightened of driving horses, when she saw them at a show for the first time,warming up outside, where I was also warming up. I asked one of the drivers if I could just trail behind her cart, and that fixed Charlie's fear of those little horses hooked up to those strange contraptions!
Glad you and Hondo had a good day. I;m going for a trail ride with my son and his better half tomorrow.
Tonight I just rode Charlie down the road. Four deer jumped out a little ahead of us, but my 'chicken ' 16hh white horse is finally getting brave! 
She actually got a horse cookie or two, when we got back.


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi Harold, Smilie, All



Hondo said:


> I like to give Hondo the lead in difficult spots to see which line he will take. Invariably it is better for him than what I would have chosen.
> 
> So yeah, I think this newbie is gonna hafta start taking charge a little more. Not heavy handed, just making more "executive" decisions that he disagrees with.
> 
> 'Course when it was all over and he was happily munching in his pen it's like, " Hey Harold, we had fun today huh?"


"That which does not kill us makes us stronger." Conan the Barbarian (?)

And, in retrospect, it Was fun, wasn't it? And a learning experience.

And yes, as The Boss, you want to be making "executive" decisions. There will be times where you may want to make micromanagement decisions as well, maybe you know where the shallow spot to ford the river is. But when your "employee" knows that his input is valued; a regular and important part of getting The Job done, he will gladly let you (heh-heh) "take the reins" in times of need.



Smilie said:


> When horses can feel like they are moving something, like cows, it makes them feel much more secure then having cattle run up behind them
> 
> Tonight I just rode Charlie down the road. Four deer jumped out a little ahead of us, but my 'chicken ' 16hh white horse is finally getting brave!
> She actually got a horse cookie or two, when we got back.


Smilie, I really suspect that the better horse-people, no matter what the discipline, do this "negotiation" thing, and probably at an almost unconscious level. You can feel when you need to step in, you do so, your horse takes your direction as an "executive" decision, and you move on. If you think about the process at all, you simplify it to something like "don't _nag_ your horse."

Carefully examine your processes as you ride, and see if this isn't the case to some extent.

ByeBye! Steve


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Steve, yes, I probably learned more on this ride than on any other I have ever made.

From another thread:



Smilie said:


> To make sure I never break this trust, I do not insist a horse goes through a water hole, where I myself am not sure where that bottom is-unless there is no other route.


There is a long section of river bottom that floods heavily during the monsoon season leaving spots of deep almost quicksand sections. I have learned that one person on the ranch actually had to dig his horse out of one.

Before I learned about the hazards of the river after a flood, early on in my riding Hondo but after a secure bond, I asked him to go down one really nice section of sand as off to the side was harder footing. He said he didn't really want to but said OK without too much hesitation. Very shortly I felt his back end drop while seeing his front sink deeper. I signaled a quick 90 degree towards the nearest bank and he made several deep and heavy lurches to clear the area.

Since that experience I have given wide birth to any water stuff that he sniffs and questions. I have absolutely decided he knows more than I about those areas and have deliberately given him the executive power with any of those areas.

Now I'm thinking that the incident yesterday may have had a lot to do with him going for the bank under the tree limb and simply doing what I have taught him.

My new policy will be to not ride to a spot and move into it after he has checked it out. I simply will not ask him to go anywhere or check anything out that I am not 100% certain that he can safely achieve.

On the trail I often tell him, "Your feet, your choice", which I'll still do but at times but will modify to let him know "when and if" he has the reins rather than it becoming an automatic thing for him to take over.

Yesterday when he went absolutely nutso we were all stopped looking at the cattle coming over yon horizon, talking about them and wondering if they were coming to join a group of cattle already in the bottom or if a rider was behind them. Then one of our group that had dogs took off like a rocket in a direction slightly opposite to the direction the cattle were coming to intercept them and hold up with the dogs.

I knew we couldn't keep up and tried to stay put. There were two other riders with me but Hondo just knew we were going to die and just couldn't believe my comforts that all was ok.

I am recognizing that Hondo's problems yesterday were in fact not Hondo's problems and not a horse problem at all.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Badmminton Horse Trials are on at the moment, it is interesting to see how, when mistakes are made, some riders have the trust and confidence to just let the horse sort it out.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> Badmminton Horse Trials are on at the moment, it is interesting to see how, when mistakes are made, some riders have the trust and confidence to just let the horse sort it out.


No TV. Sounds interesting.

Here's something I'd like to hear comments about (in regards to executive leadership):

Top-10 Trail-Horse Skills | The Trail Rider


“I’ve seen horses walk up to an obstacle and wait for the riders to guide them around it. I want my horse to pay attention to where he’s going and choose the best path for us.” - See more at: Top-10 Trail-Horse Skills | The Trail Rider


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

We went on a nice short two hour ride yesterday. Typically at some point in every ride I do let Oliver occasionally choose his path, _*but I get to choose when he gets to choose!*_

That judgement is up to me of when he gets to take over and is part of my responsibility to my horse to not set him up to fail. 

Places I let him decide yesterday were two 55 degree rocky slopes, one up, one down. He chose the path, I chose the speed. The second was when we got to an open field where he got to go as fast as he wanted, but I chose the path (no cactus or mesquite patches please).

We both have a responsibility to the other not to do anything that is beyond the other's abilities. In the 8 months I have owned him, we have spent over 1500 hours together doing a variety of things and getting to know one another both in the saddle and out. 

Knowing when to allow Oliver to do what he does best is part of the terms of our partnership.

Sometimes leadership requires us to know how and when to leverage the superior skills of our followers to get to a common goal.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I have sunk a horse in bog, but luckily, the horse forgave me!
We sometimes ride in spring, more in the forestry area, waiting for spring run off , thus swollen rivers to normalize.
Those areas often have boggy sections.
I did not actually tell my horse to go into the bog, as there were quad trails through there, but, as we both found out, quads can go where horses can't!
One moment we were on fairly dry ground, and my mare when a bit sideways, trying to follow a quad trail, and was belly deep in bog
I stepped off ,and at first she had the attitude, 'okay, i;m going to die"!
Luckily, with some encouragement, she managed to get out



I absolutely hate bog, and will not cross it, unless there is no other way!
On one trail ride, with the local light horse club, we rode in an area where there was a bog at the best ,of time, but this was a wet spring, so worse. Beyond that bog, was a meadow where the club for some reason or other, thought we had to have lunch, then just ride back through the bog and to the trailers.
I had a friend riding one of my horses and told him, that we were having lunch on the near side of the bog. I saw absolutely no reason to risk a horse having an injury for no purpose!
The rest of the idiots rode through , with two people coming off and one horse cutting himself on something in that bog> Meanwhile, the two of us munched our lunch, watching the drama!


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Smile, 

After getting stuck like that I think I would steer way clear of bogs too!


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Spot on RCD.

Smilie, what I did last monsoon season was to dismount and test stuff with MY feet. Once I went from ankle deep to knee deep in one step. I decided, naw, there's 28,000 acres just on the ranch without the river. I'll ride somewhere else. I did actually cut a trail along the river for about 1.5 miles but it still requires 3 crossings.

RCD, I came up with over 6 hours per day for eight months. Wow, and I thought I spent a lot of time with Hondo.

I intend to spend a lot of time developing a cue in order for him to know when he has the helm so's we both know and don't become confused. A lot of times I like to rest my hand on his mane when returning home and I don't care about the route and in fact want to learn some of HIS trails. I may use that as the cue. Seems to make sense as he is used to it already.

That way we can both become ACCOUNTABLE at differing times and avoid PUNISHING situations.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Yes, Hondo, my husband is a Saint, even doing the laundry on weekends to free me up some time! 

On weekends I get a bit more time in. On weekdays a little less. Two hours here and there throughout the day......plus the other horses (which admittedly have not been getting their fair share).

I have never been this tan in May in my whole life!

Don't forget sometimes a lack of a cue can be a cue. My hand low and loose is his cue to pick his own way. If I lift the rein up or make bit contact, he knows instructions are forthcoming.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> I have sunk a horse in bog,


Wondering if your horse exhibited any tendency to avoid bogs, resist bogs, ask not to go near bogs, or stuff like that.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> No TV. Sounds interesting.
> 
> Here's something I'd like to hear comments about (in regards to executive leadership):
> 
> ...


I read the first link, and agree with pretty much everything that has been said/
I think the 'negotiate an obstacle,needs further interpretation.
For instance, first you have to have all of the above things, far as all that body control, calmness, and then,, if you come to an obstacle that you yourself are not sure of, yes, then you trust that 'well trained trail horse'
This is not true of a horse that spooks, does not think, but just reacts on a trail.
In other words, that trust becomes two way street.
Horse see much better than us at night, so I have often given a horse i trust, aloose rein, in the dark, crossing a shale slope, trusting him not to step over the edge, and not trying to interfere with his balance on that narrow trail with that drop off, by trying to guide him with my reins
On the other hand, if you have a horse that just wants to ram his way through, from point a to point b,oblivious as to where he is placing his feet, better be sure I am not letting him decide that route or the speed!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Wondering if your horse exhibited any tendency to avoid bogs, resist bogs, ask not to go near bogs, or stuff like that.


Most horses don't like bogs. 
The mare I was riding at that time, was Shyanne, as a three year old.
She still rode where asked to, but I never sunk her ina bog again.
She was the horse both my sons learned to ride on, and I sold her to a doctor, that wanted a safe trail horse
I avoid bogs , when possible, but sometimes on a mountain rides, you come to a place where you have to cross bog, or re trace some 30 miles or more
what you waNt then, is a horse that does not panic in bog, blindly plunging ahead, usually into deeper bog,as that is usually more green, having less traffic, versus that churned up bog, but the reason it looks more solid, is that no one is riding through there, knowing that the bog is deeper there.
Thus, a horse that allows you to guide him through that bog, even though that un trodden part looks more solid to the horse, is worth his weight in gold!
That App/TB mare that I bought off the tract , has 'no bRAINS home"
I re call one BigHorn sheep hunt that I had her on.SHe panicked in the bog, and plunged in deeper, cutting a leg on some sharp hidden obstacle
That bit meant nothing to her, when she got back in race mode
I would not trail ride such a horse today, but in those days, we were just starting out to breed horses, thus I had to ride what we had. She was intended as a broodmare, and she did actually produce some nice minded offspring that made very nice trail horses, so she got screwd up somewhere in that race training
I did cure her of halter pulling, and of rearing and going over backwards, but she herself never became an easy horse to ride, but to be fair, I only rode her for about a year, and then used her as a broodmare


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Don't forget sometimes a lack of a cue can be a cue. My hand low and loose is his cue to pick his own way. If I lift the rein up or make bit contact, he knows instructions are forthcoming.

This.
There is a big difference between handing the 'reins' to a horse, telling him you are trusting him to pick the way, and in a horse that decides to take charge


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Just starting to dip here and not through reading everything yet.

Re horses having concepts of number, and interpreting human words and syntax - Marthe Kiley Worthington has some very interesting studies on that in her book _Horse Watch - What It Is To Be Equine_. Dr Kiley-Worthington avoids both anthopomorphising and the opposite extreme, human exceptionalism. 

As Loosie and others have already pointed out, the dominance theory many horse people subscribe to is based on science that wasn't particularly well done, nor in the context of what actually happens in the wild, nor was it about horses. But, the human mind frequently loves nothing better than simple, black-and-white interpretations of what is actually a complex, multifaceted reality. And then there's confirmation bias, keeping people more alert to anything that confirms their particular theories or world views than to those pieces of evidence that contradict their theories or world views.

Often, people who subscribe to dominance theory, and enthusiastically implement it with their animals, tell me "It works, so it must be true." This was also, of course, said by many people who subscribed to and enthusiastically implemented the "spare the rod and spoil the child" concept of child-rearing. And it's also said by the laissez-faire parenting camp on the opposite extreme.

I really dislike anthropocentric approaches to animals, and the world as a whole actually. Particularly I dislike the view many people have of themselves as the obvious cream of creation, and as something superior to the rest of the biosphere. I think life is so much nicer when we're appreciative and open to nature and to other species. I also much prefer communication and negotiation with domestic animals to "Here's big important me, and your job is to obey me" approaches... and I've noticed I have a far better relationship with my animals than such people do with theirs - including what the animals will do for me if I ask them to.  (Also in riding competitions, where there's lots of "My horse is my slave and he'd better do as he's told" type people.)

Nice thread, Steve!


----------



## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I understand what you are saying Sue.

Any animal need rules and boundaries regardless of age. These start with being tight and then as understanding and trust evolves so they can widen and become a true partnership. 

I do know I have met a lot of dogs, horses and humans that have not had these boundaries and have been a 'challenge' often with these it is 'my way or the highway' and I have had to get tough and determined and take the high attitude of 'obey or else!' Correcting every little thing the animal does wrong _firmly but fairly._
Once the recipient understands the rules they accept. Then the boundaries can widen and 'discussions' held. 

What, at one point was a perpetual time of correction, becomes one of, for want of a better word, compliance, then a real bond is reached. 

My last horse came to me to be sold for a friend. He really wasn't very safe. He would run off with a rider, set his neck against you, napped, kicked and generally was not a pleasant character. Going to the field he would set his neck and just go, a stud chain or keeping his head turned made not a lot of difference! 

I had to be tough, I had to say that it was my way or else. Corrections, in the stables for ill manners, were many, consistent and fair. I never used a whip or anything other than my own body to correct. 

It soon came around that when I went into the stable he moved back, if I was mucking out whilst he was eating he would automatically move over without me asking when I needed to get to the other side of him. 

He went from fighting not to leave the barn to wanting to go out and about, from being difficult to catch to being first at the gate. From not being able to clip his belly to not caring at all. From kicking at a person to just never thinking about it. 
The day when he was lying down in his stable and he allowed me to go in and sit with him without jumping to his feet, I knew I had his trust. 

The day that astounded me was when we were Cubbing. This is when young Foxhounds are being taught the sport. Hounds were in some woods and I was on a track through the woods. Some hounds gave tongue, altering others they had found a scent. I heard some crashing and realised that they were on a deer not a fox. The deer crossed about 200 yards away from me, I charged to the spot and when the hounds came to cross the track I used my hunting whip to stop them from going further. 
Cracking a hunting whip takes some skill, it can sound like a gunshot! That and the fact I was cussing the hounds in a meaningful voice, gave the horse every right to feel threatened. Booted from a standstill to a short spurt, stopped and then have its rider cuss and crack a whip, I wouldn't have been surprised if he had spun and taken off! 
None of it, he acted like a real pro, stood still. Trusted me not to get him with the whip and knowing that I wasn't annoyed with him.

He turned into a fantastic hunter, strong, yes but we had an understanding. He trusted me and I certainly trusted him. You have to when going into some big hedges he couldn't see over yet somehow managed to clear. 

Taking charge is the best way providing corrections are well timed and consistent. 

Another horse that was an ex steeplechaser came with many problems. The girl who owned him worked hard with him and they developed a bond. Returning home from a day Fox Hunting she went to jump some rails. The horse slipped and ended up under the fence trapped. She said he stopped struggling when she commanded him to and just lay there, luckily it was very close to home and when she called me I threw the chainsaw into the ATV and drove to where they were. 
A horse has to trust when you are chain sawing through a rail inches from its head!
When he did start to move the command was given to stay still. Only when we had dismantled the rails did he, on command, struggle to get to his feet. 

Had he not listened to his rider then he might well have had serious injuries.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> I understand what you are saying Sue.
> 
> Any animal need rules and boundaries regardless of age. These start with being tight and then as understanding and trust evolves so they can widen and become a true partnership.


As is true with people ;-) But I think it's not usually good for a relationship with any human or other animal to have that as the number one conscious item on the agenda, I think it's best if it's just quietly there: The attitude, I'll treat you with respect and I expect you to treat me with respect as well.

Great stories in the rest of your post too, as usual! Much enjoyed reading. 

One of my concerns with the horse fraternity is: What happens when it's the humans who are doing things wrong? Who corrects them? All of the horses we've rehabilitated in our 30-plus years were made the way they were by poor horsemanship - most of it involving stupidity and/or brutality on behalf of the previous owners, some of which were famous racing stables, and all of which subscribed to the common ideas about needing to dominate animals.

I get what you are saying about people not setting boundaries (with animals, including their own species). I see it particularly with people and their lapdogs. I think everyone saw that on "The Dog Whisperer" and while I don't agree with everything Cesar Milan says, I do think he's a decent bloke and that he deals with these snarly lapdogs orders of magnitude better than their often highly dysfunctional owners. I also think he's done a lot of good in educating people about the need to make sure dogs get lots and lots of exercise and mental stimulation, and clearly he's warm and kind to his dogs, as well as setting boundaries. I think people are also influenced by their culture, and Cesar Milan is, if I remember correctly, of Hispanic or Spanish extraction, and these cultures have this machismo thing going, which I think has strongly influenced the way he relates to dogs as well. I think everyone is influenced by their cultural background (and other learning experiences) in how they relate to the world and other beings in it. And also, I think there is more than one way to skin a cat, and more than one way to get up a mountain, which is a good thing since we're not all clones of each other.

I will say that most of the horses we've rehabilitated didn't have boundary issues, they had fear and confusion around humans, and that was something we fixed with gaining their trust, and working together respectfully (both sides ).

I have known one horse who had serious boundary issues and who used to maul people and other animals after ambushing them, and I never, ever trusted him one inch, and always conspicuously carried a piece of polypipe when I had to work with him, and he knew I'd smack him with it no questions asked if he tried anything stupid with me. He would have been far improved by being separated from his knackers, but he carried bloodlines that were unique in the Southern Hemisphere at the time, and the majority of his offspring had nice natures. The problem with that horse was at least in part due to lack of boundary setting as a very young orphaned foal by the people who raised him, and who thought it was cute when he made toothless leaps at them when the milk bottle ran out. So, early correction would have prevented a lot of this trouble. On the other hand, very few orphaned animals that get bottle-fed attempt to bully or attack their handlers, so I should think that horse also inherited part of his foul temper.

So I relate to your own story of dealing with those sorts of horses. Maybe I've been particularly lucky to have avoided horses with those streaks, but I do think they're in the minority, and far outnumbered by horses who have had bad experiences with humans who were unable to clearly communicate with them, and who perhaps thought a rapport of any sort was totally unimportant.

Now donkeys, that's another chapter entirely! 










The large ears of donkeys were assumed for many years by the scientific community to assist them with acute hearing. However, these structures have latterly been shown to be of immense value in mesmerising certain hairless primates to their advantage. ;-) - Mary Lou and Don Quixote


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

*Springtime in the Rockies*

Totally off topic, just thought you might enjoy a foto looking down our driveway this morning. This is six or eight inches of very heavy snow, on top of about two inches of rain yesterday. More forecast for today and tonight. Welcome to Springtime in the Rockies. Steve


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Beautiful!


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

And now to the fictional Hippogriffs! ;-)

I have to say, one of the many things that impressed me about JK Rowling's writing is the whole code of conduct towards Hippogriffs as taught by Hagrid. I do wonder what the author's horse experience and attitude to horses is; it would be interesting to know.

What I liked about it is this: Many people are always going on about how (other) animals should conduct themselves towards us, and don't seem to consider that we also ought to comport ourselves with respect towards them. The Hippogriff story turns that common one-way expectation on its head. It's not until the Hippogriff invites you that you can approach, and not until it accepts you that you can ride on its back. The Hippogriff-wizard relationship is not slave-master, it's not employer-employee, it's not alpha-subordinate; it's a meeting on common ground, and the wizard has to ask nicely for service, and be deemed an acceptable person by the Hippogriff first.

And I think there's a lot of wisdom and dignity in that idea, and things to seriously consider, and that it's not just some bauble in a fantasy world.

Wild animals, for instance: The "wait for them to tell you it's OK to approach" idea in my experience results in people being allowed to come much nearer than trying to run them down or sneak up on them.

Cows in a paddock: If you sit down and talk to them and let them approach you, they will come far closer than if you try to go to them, however carefully. They'll typically end up sniffing you and licking your hair even if they're not like a house cow used to handling. And if you don't push beyond their limits, they won't gore you either. ;-)

Barking dogs in driveways when you walk down the street generally respond surprisingly well to a human going, "Hello, I'm very pleased to meet you, what are you barking about? Come say hello!" - and meaning it. Animals can read intention very well. I don't think it would work if you tried to fake it, wanted to burgle the house etc.

And when I go riding, I don't just plonk myself on my horse's back and give directions. I take a moment to convey, "I'm going to get on your back now, is that cool with you?" And that's despite the fact that I've been riding him 7 years and I know he enjoys our outings. It's just courtesy, really, and the horse seems to appreciate it. I also say, "Thank you, nice ride!" or something like that after dismounting. He's super to ride, by the way, and has such a good attitude to work. And animals like that do like to feel appreciated - they get the concept. My horse does, my Kelpie does. There's a lot of unspoken communication going on and sometimes it almost seems telepathic, but then we're social mammals and have finely tuned antennae!


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> Once the recipient understands the rules they accept. Then the boundaries can widen and 'discussions' held. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> This is where I think so many people go wrong. Casually surfing the web on horse subjects, I see so many questions in the vein of "how can I bond with my horse?". The problem is they often seem to expect it to happen in "10 days or less"....that is to say, quickly.
> ...


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

....BTW, the back up did not involve anything more than halter pressure and my hand pushing on his chest until he found the right answer.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, Sue, I agree that many problem horses are created by man, not born that way, but those problem horses are created by establishing no behavior boundaries for that horse, every bit as much, if not more so, than by abusive methods
You then have a horse that is known a s a spoiled horse
One only has to read the many posts here to see the creation of such a horse

You worked with ex race horses- where horses are a business. There seldom is an emotional attachment to those horses by their owners-they are raised and trained for one thing-to run successfully and win
You are right, that many show horses are on a similar merry go round.
I am sure that the ex -racing App that I bought, came with her problem behaviors (rearing, going over backwards, halter pulling, etc ), from that racing background. She produced nice offspring, that were very willing and nice tempered horses, bred to several different studs
Cheri, on the other hand, has had to deal with problem horses, created along the examples of many of the posts here, where that horse has been allowed to take charge, assume he can bite or charge people, buck them off, or refuse to ride out.Horses like this, have to be handled in manner where your leadership is clear, and in a manner that they are no longer successful in committing their former vise
I have been fortunate enough to mainly train and ride the horses that we raised, so those horses were never either abused, or ever un clear in where they stood in their relationship to me, treated fairly and kindly, but being my partners and not my pets
What is the relevance as to how horses act in the wild, in relationship to our interaction with horses?
We tap into two main components, far as the nature of the horse, and that is their innate nature as a prey and herd species
Either spoil a horse , or abusive him, and you creaTE A HORSE THAT IS not what Tom Dorrance considers a good citizen, an din fact, that spoiled horse, with no idea of boundaries or respect can be more dangerous than an abused horse
I believe horses are smart, esp in the way they evolved to survive, they certainly learn by experience, recognize words and can respond to voice commands, but lack true deductive reasoning.
It would be very wonderful if my horses , who live in extreme winter conditions, would reason,' I don't feel much like drinking, even with open water available, when it gets to being 30 below, but I know I should, or I might get impaction colic'
Nope, I add salt to their beet pulp , or mag. salts , to encourage drinking.
I love my horses, esp those that become my 'special mounts' 
My old gelding that I had to put down recently, was referred to by my two sons as my third and 'favorite son' That horse and I had a very close communication and mutual empathy, and it hurt me as much to loose him as any family member, but he was always sure as to who led who.
An example to the extreme trust he generously gave to me, I will again relate our encounter with a bull moose, during the rut
We were riding back home, after coming out of the river valley, along a fenced road. Ahead of us, against the fence, was abig bull moose, showing an un healthy interest in my horse (bull moose are very stupid, during to rut , sizing anything up as a possible breeding opportunity ! )
My horse just stopped, turned his head and looked back at me, asking as clearly as he could, 'now what'
I knew tyring to run by that moose could make him charge, so instead, I decided to bluff him. I un tied my coat from the back of my saddle, waved it above my head, while asking my horse to mock charge that moose. Without hesitation, he did-not out of dominance on my part, but out of respect and leadership, which in turn breeds trust , esp in a prey /herd species
The above works for me, has created horses that became valuable and loved partners , for many customers, some that I am still in touch with
I trusted that horse with my life, and visa versa


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sue, for every problem horse that you have seen created by a person needing to dominant them, I can show you ten or more created by poor leadership, being spoiled.allowed to 'walk over people.

To be dominant to a horse, is not one and the same as being abusive or harsh, but merely asserting as to 'who leads who, in your relationship with that horse.
If you don't lead, the horse will- that is the nature of a herd species.
I also believe on can enjoy a great partnership with a horse, but that is not an equal partnership, and the human has to remain the senior partner that the other one defers to


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Sue and Smile,

I find myself agreeing with both of you!!

Sue seems to have had an experience where she sees a lot of horses ruined by out of control human domination. Smile, seems to have had more contact with horses ruined by lack of proper discipline. I have had more experience with horses where people just didn’t give a d*** one way or the other. 

Sue is in Australia, Smile and I are both in the US. Maybe there is a cultural difference in our populations as well.

In short, people are often NOT putting the long term well -being of the horse first, regardless of which side of the amorphous discipline line they take a stand.

"As gentle as possible, but as firm as necessary", it seems, has a different interpretation depending on your personal goals and lifestyle as well as your starting point of defining "as gentle as possible". 

I think we can agree that both extremes end up in one messed up and unwanted horse! Sadly, there are a lot of them out there.

A friend of mine is starting to put together his own trail string for a business doing guided trail rides (Oliver and I get to work as trail wranglers. Yeah!). He recently put an ad on craigslist “Wanted. Sound, free horses; bucking, rearing, unbroken, un-papered, old or young, doesn’t matter. Will take all kinds”. He had more than 30 calls in less than a week. It makes me sad, but glad there are people out there that are willing to take problem horses on and give them a new and useful life.

The differences in opinion here seem to rest upon at what point within the middle ground the “spoilage” occurs.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

*Smilie*, it is my professional opinion as a biologist that dominance theory is not a good fit for the complexities of horse behaviour - and you won't find many zoologists these days subscribing to that piece of inadequate and misapplied science. And FYI, I have not only worked with ex-racehorses, but with harness racing horse, and with riding horses, over a period of over 30 years. Also, we have bred quite a number of foals and educated them, and yearlings bought in, to ride and to drive. My opinion of the general standard of horse handling and training is gleaned from regularly visiting race tracks, competing in endurance rides, horse shows and gymkhanas, and hanging out with a lot of horse folk over here - plus that little sideline we did of taking on and rehabilitating "problem" horses - something we started with our first horse in Europe, and continued to do in Australia.

*Reiningcatsanddogs*, I like your thoughtful posts! 

*Foxhunter*, I was thinking: I don't know you in person, but I've read and enjoyed enough of your anecdotes to deduce with near certainty that in an altercation between a Draco Malfoy and a horse, you'd be firmly on the side of the horse. 

*Steve*, hi! How's George doing?


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi All!

Harold, we avoid boggy ground. Period. Plenty of other places to ride . . .

Ladies, I think you are belaboring the extremes of equine/human relationship.

Sure, if you are attempting to rehabilitate an animal that has been abused, or badly spoiled, you have to adopt a "whatever it takes" attitude. I can certainly see that the first step would be the establishment of boundaries, from a safety standpoint if nothing else.

However, the (I would hope) majority of equine/human interactions probably lie closer to the median, and it is these relationships that benefit from taking the time and effort to forge strong bonds. Time, and Effort. Respect, Understanding, and Love. And isn't that your goal in rehab; to move the subject closer to the median, such that the real work of establishing a relationship can begin?

Nothing like an Easy Fix to be had on this trail, friends, but the rewards are great. I think most recreational riders would agree that it is a worthy goal.

Alas, and I'm sure I will ruffle some feathers with this, but I truly feel that there are people (probably many people) who simply shouldn't have horses. Or dogs. Or (gasp) children, for that matter. It takes a certain combination of empathy and assertiveness to successfully interact with "lesser" beings, and large deviations in either direction inevitably lead to . . . less than desirable outcomes.

I'm gonna go hide now  Steve


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Like this? :hide:


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sue, what is your interpretation of dominance?
Certainly, I don't subscribe to old type training techniques, where horses were physically subdued, then bucked out, nor do i believe in throwing a horse, to show him that you can completely take away his flight ability, except in maybe very, very extreme cases.
I do believe that you have to let a horse understand that you are dominant to him, thus not ever subjected to actions that a dominant horse bestows on a horse he considers lower in the herd order.
I have also bred , raised and trained horses from foals on up, trail ridden them, shown many, and sold them to people that consider those horses as part of their family-so what is your point?
These horses were never abused, are happy in their jobs, certainly are comfortable being with me, but are not like some horses we had in to breed to our various stallions over the years.
Mares that did not lead with respect, walking into you, some of those mares offering to kick, when being approached, while deemed to 'just love people', by their owners
Had one guy show me how he 'played' chase with his young stallion. he thought it was funny how that stud mock charged him, until that stud came at him seriously, striking, teeth bared. The idiot barely made it over the rails of that stud pen
Yes, I am dominant to my horses, but that does not mean I am an abusive dictator or an un just leader, but just a firm and clear leader, one a respects and gets confidence from.
I don't know where you ride, but I ride in some pretty extreme wilderness, and there are situations on those trails, where having a horse second guess you, not trusting your leadership, can spell disaster.
AND, YES, i DO SHOW, but I never pushed a horse beyond his ability, used drugs or artifical training devises. You do need to have a horse that is obedient to your cues in a show situation, one that does not try to take charge , picking up gaits not asked for, or charging through a trail pattern
Look through some of the posts here, on people having problems with their horses, and be honest, how many of those problems are due to a person being too dominant with their horse, versus not setting clear boundaries-ie, being the leader to their horse.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Of course, some people should not own horses, or any animal, for that matter.
At the same time, one has to realize that horses, for the most part, are now owned by people that actually want to have horses in their life, as opposed to the past, when people relied on horse power, and thus many, many people with zero empathy owned horses, simply to work the fields, transportation, work in the coal mines, etc, ect
Go to Cuba, and you will see a place where horses still are tools, where the status between 'live stock and pet has not become blurred
Just like in the 'good ole days', even in Cuba, there are horsemen, among the masses that just own horses
There were no horse rescues or animal rights lobbies. The number of horses that died and suffered are beyond count, with people just dewelling on the few good horsemen that established some basics in good horsemanship
Of course, George, one trains horses with empathy and kindness, forming bonds that are based on mutual trust, but that does not need to preclude the human being recognized as being alpha to the horse, and leader that he can trust , to the point ah orse will dampen is inborn flight reaction, knowing and trusting that 'his leader', is looking out for the lions, so he does not have to'


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

There are different kinds of “leaders”.

Some leaders maintain position through intimidation and fear. If you do not do as I ask, you will be punished.

Some leaders maintain leadership by presenting to their flock things like security in life, good decision making, consideration of their input, opinions, respect and emotional needs of their followers. 

(Scrooge vs. Pheziwink)

I have found in raising five children, that at different times in their lives, I have been both kinds of leaders and sometimes a combination of the two in different proportions.

When they were very young and still learning the rules of proper conduct and self-control, I was not beyond spanking a rear end or two as needed. Most often it was used when they were doing something dangerous to themselves or others and I needed to put a stop to it immediately.

With some of them, they were only spanked once in their lives and the threat of a spanking, was enough to gain compliance from that point out. With one of my children, spanking really just didn’t work and would have necessitated physical discipline beyond the point where any parent should be willing to go. For him, I needed to concoct different methods.

As they got older, into to school and such, I was slowly able to change my leadership from punishment into the realm of respect based upon their ability to understand the situation at hand. In human terms and, I believe to a lesser extent in horses, the two things are not one in the same.(you may do as your boss says because you don’t want to lose your job, but do you truly respect him?)

Three of them are married now and two of those have children of their own. They still call me for advice as they did when they were teen-agers. Our teenage years went incredibly smoothly (knock wood, two more to go) At some point, they switched over from complying because they feared punishment from me to looking to me for guidance in their own decision making process.

What I have found working with horses is that I use a similar pattern. FIRST I establish consequencesfor non-compliance and communicate boundaries defined by reward-punishment.(BTW with the child above for whom spanking did not work, rewards always got me further than punishment). If that is already there, great! Time to move on. If not, that is where we stay for a while. 

Once that is demonstrably well understood, from that point forward we work on establishing that I should be listened to, not because I can cause you pain or discomfort, but because I know how to give you what you need to not only stay safe, but feel fulfilled in a horsey kind of way.

I don’t think animals ever really get out of that stage of needing the occasional reminder that leader number one is still there inside of you and that it is up to them which one they will be following today. But while leader #1 is always along for the ride, he needs to take up position in the back seat and voice his opinion only when necessary.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I'm having a hard time disagreeing with anything I've read. As a newbie to saddle horses I've really been wrestling with both sides of the alpha thing for a while now.

Some recent experiences have convinced me I need to pick up the reins a little more and for certain clear up what may be blurred lines as to who has the reins and when.

But I'm having a really hard time putting myself into a dominant frame of mind towards an animal that I almost consider a hero.

So......I'm going to try a sort of position I have taken with my dog.

If I were running in the wild, (and my dog was as knowledgeable as a wolf say), I would defer as to what we should do and how we should do it to my dog.

But in a "people" world, I know things the dog does not know. That doesn't make me smarter. Considering the things Meka knows about her world, it is conceivable that she is smarter than I am, depending on who designs the smart test. I am just more knowledgeable about the people world and know things that she must do to survive in this people world. And she doesn't speak English. If she did, I'm sure she would agree that I should make the decisions in this world. In her own way, I think she has agreed.

So......I'm going to try the same position with Hondo. I won't need to think of myself as superior, necessarily an alpha, or even smarter other than knowing more about my world than he does, but I will need to clean up the communication lines in order to help him live in my world better, just as I would want him to help me in his world (which actually i don't think even exist anymore).

I may have to appear to the outside observer that I am being dominant at times but in my mind and heart I will not be. I will be dealing with him much in the same way he might have to deal with me in a different world, if he was of mind to guide me through it.

This way I can still consider him a hero for what he does for me but do the things that are necessary for him to feel more secure with me and even be happier and for certain safer.

Hondo came with a large trunk of baggage. He was likely to have wound up in an Alpo can. He is very people friendly, doesn't have a mean bone in him, but was considered by a very capable expert rider that he was not safe to ride above a walk or possibly a trot because of his spook and bolt.

He is much better now. But with more clear direction, that might need some firmness to be clear so's he can understand the lines that have been blurred, he will be better.

So......that's how a head over heels in love with his horse touchy feely newbie is gonna try to take a middle road to all the above posts.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Prior to going on to High school - over fifty years ago - the reputation and warnings came through about the teachers. The most feared was Mr Townsend and first year students shook in their shoes if they just saw him coming! 

I never had him as a teacher until my final term at school when all those leaving went into a class together. 
I found him a good teacher, interesting, encouraged you to think things for yourself, explained things well for those that didn't understand and had a good sense of humour.

In class when he asked if there were any questions I stood up and asked why he had such a bad reputation as I thought he was tough but fair. 
He just laughed and told me that his mantra was that you terrified them the first year, let them see you were human the second and third and by the time the fourth was reached you could have fun even though you were working hard. 

He always had control even of rowdy boys and I am like that with a difficult horse that has been spoilt. Obviously it doesn't take as long but the theory is he same. 

He dealt with matters there and then, he never faltered and never used physical punishment which, in those days he could have.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Since this thread has gone sideways and every other way I've got a question that I don't wanna start a new thread on.

Say it's been a while since Hondo has had a drink, working hard on a hot day, sweating a lot. Conditions where he would be thirsty.

We come to a bubbling stream. Should a well trained horse walk right on across without batting an eye if not given a whoa and slackened reins?

The way things currently go is that he just says Oboy, stops and stick his nose into the water. I've allowed that since I've been riding him. When he gets his fill, he moves on without a cue.

So do I need to change this? Is this a blurred line that needs to be cleared up?

Thanks for the use of your thread George. Harold


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I strongly believe in letting a horse drink. Often, when we ride in The mountains, it tAkes a day before the horses will consent to drinking that fast flowing cold water, and I do everything to encourage them to drink, including giving them a CHANCE TO DO SO, WHEN EVER POSSIBLE
(SORRY, HIT THAT CAP KEY BY ACCIDENT )

If a horse acts like he would like to drink, I give him every chance to do so. Then, if he is only playing in that water, thus stalling in crossing that river, I push him on.
Horses are smart, and mine know that I will give them every chance to drink. Thus, they will at time stop, act like they want to drink, then just play and blow bubbles, in which case, I will make them cross, giving them a chance at the next river crossing to drink
No, keeping A horse hydrated is very important, and a horse stopping to drink is not the same as a horse deciding he would like to stop and eat. I never err on not allowing my horse to drink.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with Smilie. 

When endurance riding first started over longer distances, 50+ miles, a lot of horses were colicking from dehydration because it was thought that allowing a hot horse to drink was bad. 
Now the horse is encouraged to drink every time it goes through water, including puddles. 

I would allow him to drink.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I didn't do my question right. Yes, I will/would/shall ALWAYS let Hondo drink. I dig holes in the sand sometimes for water. Carry a bucket so if there are bees in the spot and he won't drink I'll dip it out for him. (he's scared of bees)

But the question is:

When we come to a stream he stops without a cue. He makes the executive decision that the is going to drink. It's been set up that way by me. We ALWAYS stop at a stream or water source. (especially in arizona!)

But should he be waiting for me give the cue to stop and drink? Should I require him to wait for a cue before he stops? Or is it acceptable for the horse to stop "on his own" without a cue at water crossings.

And yes, if he starts pawing, we move on. I was taught that's a sign he's going to roll, as in "It'll be fun Harold".


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Hondo, You mean like this?










That’s a friend of mine on Oliver on the left and his girlfriend on the right, letting the horses have some fun in our creek. (it's a limestone bottom creek)

Neither one of them rolled, they just have fun splashing and cooling off. Ollie does the same thing in his water trough on hot days. So I suppose my answer to your question would be it depends…..Would I let a horse I don't know do it, no.

Ollie knows that when I pick up the reins I am going to ask him to do something and he needs to listen. When the reins are long and loose like in the picture, it is like saying to him the status quo is fine.

He was having fun in the creek that day but the second my friend picked up the halter lead he stopped and said "Yes sir! What do you want to do next?"


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi Sue, All!



SueC said:


> And now to the fictional Hippogriffs! ;-)
> 
> <snip>
> 
> And when I go riding, I don't just plonk myself on my horse's back and give directions. I take a moment to convey, "I'm going to get on your back now, is that cool with you?" And that's despite the fact that I've been riding him 7 years and I know he enjoys our outings. It's just courtesy, really, and the horse seems to appreciate it. I also say, "Thank you, nice ride!" or something like that after dismounting. He's super to ride, by the way, and has such a good attitude to work. And animals like that do like to feel appreciated - they get the concept. My horse does, my Kelpie does. There's a lot of unspoken communication going on and sometimes it almost seems telepathic, but then we're social mammals and have finely tuned antennae!


Sue, I do this as well. There have been times where I received a clear message of "I don't want to go out today", and put aside my riding plans in favor of a short walk and hand-grazing. There have also been times where George tried that attitude on just to see what I would do. Usually, after a couple iterations of "Are you sure? We'll have fun; stop and graze, visit the neighbors (horses)." he will decide to cooperate. And I mean this quite literally; you can almost see the cogs turning as he weighs the alternatives. And I always try to make good on my promises, and be sure that it _is_ fun for him. To tie into things we have read above in this thread; same as you would do if taking a child for a hike or the like.

I have always enjoyed the Harry Potter series, and have retained several gems, but the Hippogriff! What a great analogy. Thanks for pointing that out; I will have to dust off that volume and enjoy it again.

And "Telepathic". Well. You guys probably think I'm nuts anyway; read on 

Oh; George is doing well. Later this week, he is leading a ride with several horse mounted riders from our riding club. Some have never ridden with a mule before, and expressed trepidation. I tell them it is good training.

Harold, re. your questions on finding the middle ground, and also on the drinking thing:

When we are out, I know George will want to graze, and usually I will simply let him drop his nose for a mouthful (ie. I do not react when he does so) as long as he keeps moving. In fact, he is a master of the "moving graze". But if I sense him eyeing a particularly lush crop, I will que him to walk up to it, and then drop his reins and urge him to eat. I talk to my animals, and they seem to respond to my voice, so the conversation goes something like "Oh, look George (pointing with free hand), doesn't that look yummy?" "Let's go over for a graze (cue with legs/butt)." "Try that clump right there (cue to drop nose; full slack on rein, shift weight forward slightly)."

I don't think the exact cues are important, use whatever sequence works. What I do believe is important is the negotiation part, the "sensing" of his intent/desire, and my actions to either comply (usually), or suggest alternatives. "Not now, George; we'll stop at the creek crossing." Expand that to cover stopping for a drink. Now expand it to generically cover any decision while out on a ride. Soon it becomes a continuous negotiation process where I attempt to "predict" what George will want to do, and cue him to do that at the same time he is making the decision on his own. This sounds like precognition, and maybe it is, but it begins with knowing your animal, and knowing how he thinks/reacts. What I have found is that over time and repetition, this blending of my cues with his desires begins to work the other way as well; my cues _become_ his desires. I have found that the more I work at this process, the easier and more natural it becomes. To the point where I really don't have to cue, or if I do it is very subtle and almost unconscious. I still like to talk to him; he is my buddy, and frequently we are out alone. "Let's go over there and have a graze, George." And we do. "Let's go on, George." And we do.

This concept was outlined for me as applying particularly to mules/donkeys by a local mule guru, and in basically the same format I have outlined above. I'm sure one can learn to do it, but I'm not sure it can be taught. You just have to "learn" it, and it takes time, and practice. And relaxed expectations. And a sense of humor, 'cause it's not always pretty. But it _does_ work, and the better you get, the better it gets. And it _does_ work with horses (at least the two I ride regularly), and is maybe even a bit easier to do with Mr. Horse. If my language above seems a bit vague/contradictory, it is because I am edging up toward a place where our materialistic language ends; that being the metaphysical. The Metaphysical Horse.

This might be a good subject for another thread; anyone game?

And just for fun, here is the same view down my driveway taken yesterday about lunchtime. The sun came out, and the show just disappeared, Springtime in the Rockies ;-)

ByeBye! Steve


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

^^^Beautiful! About July, I think I miss the snow, but then about February when the plants start leafing out here and the good riding weather hits....not so much! 

Yep. I'm game.


----------



## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

I have never heard that pawing leads to rolling. Good thing, that - b/c whilst riding I use to have a lot of fun in "splash battles" with friends in creeks. Wouldn't wanted the fun to have been ruined by such a thought. 

DD said to me recently about an equine professor, "she reminds me of you, for example - you know how you kind of baby your horses, well she is the same way". Until then, DD had never told me her perception of my approach. Some people call it "babying", others call it "consideration". 

Even horses have opinions on "approach". When I was initially beginning to train my younger girl to back up on cue and at liberty together with my mare, my well trained responded perfectly several times, of course, but her poor "sister" was still standing there. It just takes time, but my mare wasn't so patient, and on the third or forth attempt my mare summarily walked back up to her "still standing" buddy, and bit at the front legs of her poor friend to make her move her legs in a backwardly direction. Other than being highly amused by this, the message was clear, "that is how you "communicate", now lets get on with it, for heaven's sake!". Of course, my mare _never_ got such harsh treatment. Are such drastic measures "punishment" for non-compliance/non-understanding, or clear direction? It did speed things up, btw. To me this applies to "punishment" for unwanted behavior. I will not apply it if there is any possibility of a "misunderstanding" of what I am asking. Its a fine line. 

I consider not allowing a hot tired horse to have at least a few sips - inconsiderate to the max. There is no "show them whose the leader" in that picture, unless being chased by a whole herd of wild bores.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Come on, you have to use common sense!
A horse showing interest in drinking, on a long ride esp, should never be discouraged from doing so, and that comparison has absolutely nothing in common with a horse making an executive decision and running you under some trees, as he considers that a better way to go, then the route that you wish to go, and that clearly allows room for you head space!
We are not selecting the five foundation Arabian mares, who, as legend has it, were part of a herd that had crossed the desert, and finally came within sight of water.
The entire herd, except those 5 mares, continued to rush towards that water, except for those five, when they were called (going by memory, so might not be 'exact', but the gist of that legend is there )
In fact, the opposite is often true, and horses don't drink when they should, thus the saying',you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink'
Sometimes, on a ride back to camp, horses are in a hurry, and just wish to rush through that last river crossing, but we always make them stop, and encourage them to drink. It would be a very stupid rider indeed, that would not allow a horse to drink, unless A WAR PARTY WAS HOT ON HIS HEELS!
Far as letting a horse play in water, I will allow some splashing, but I never fail to pay attention, as some horses will try to lie down. Happened to my husband, when we stopped at a mounatin lake, and he was just talking to a buddy, not paying attention to his horse. Luckily, he did not have his rife on the horse, as it was summer!
If we are on an all day ride, I stop and let my horse graze every once in awhile, plus give them a grazing break at noon. Common sense again tells you that a horse is not designed to go on an empty gut for extended periods
That is also not the same as a horse dragging you to a lush piece of grass, and going to town, chowing down!
Might as well put in another disclaimer. When my horse wants to pee, he will start to slow down, trying to indicate he would like to sidle over tot he edge of the trail, onto grass, if riding along a hard packed trail, as many horses hate having their legs sprayed with back splash of urine, and I certainly give them a chance to do that.
I think, Hondo, that you are trying to confuse the basic issue of a horse taking control , deciding to rush home, not ride out, go his own route,without the rider telling him to pick that route, playing the `devIL`S Advocate`` and thus suggesting a good horseman would not allow a horse to drink, because that natural thirst response is lumped into the same category, of a horse taking charge. ( By the way, I also let my horse poop and pee, as he feels the need, if you wish to use such ridiculous comparison, far as allowing a horse to take charge!
You do have to use not just horse sense, but common sense! 
I don`t know, my horses never refuse to ride out, appear reluctant to do so, as they have been trained to have good work ethics, and if ahorse was not willing and happy to ride out, I would be sure that there was a physical problem, thus would make sure to check that out
My horses stand to be mounted, and i don`t play mounting games with them. Before knee replacements, esp, I had to use whatever ground advantage served as a mounting block. When I was still riding Einstein, who stood 16.3 hh, people used to ask me, why I rode such a tall horse , esp on trail rides, with bad knees
My response was, that there was always a rock, ground advantage, etc, so I could get on, and once on , I was 100% safe on my wonderful boy, enjoying a very smooth ride
Example of trust, versus taking charge.
As a three year old, Einstein tore the back third of his right hind hoof off, along with that section of coronary band. Hoof grew down again, though the top smooth layer generated by the coronary band was gone for good, but the area above where the coronary band had been, retained a small bare scared area, inspite of attempted skin grafts-thus was vulnerable to injury
On one of his first mountain rides, when the rivers were up, following hubby and his seasoned horse across that first crossing, I made the mistake of looking down, which you don`t do in fast flowing water, keeping focused on the opposite bank instead, but I was trying to avoid sharp boulders in that river, worried about that one back foot of Einstein`s
Suddenly my husband shouted, and I sAW that Einstein and I had drifted down from the crossing, thus were faced with a steep bank. Had my horse just tried to get out of that river, we would have had a wreak, probably falling backwards back into that river and sub merged boulders
Instead, even though he wanted out of that river, when I asked Einstein to instead, read back up river, against that current, tot he crossing, he obeyed, eevn though he stumbled twice, crossing some huge boulders, against that current.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

off subject, but spring time in the Rockies, can be less that pleasant at times, esp when it occurs without warning.
I re call one May long weekend. Hubby and I were packed in, west of Rocky Mountain House. There had been no indication of snow, when we left home, on any weather reports.
After we set up our tent, having ridden several hours, and we we sitting around the camp fire, with the horses grazing near by, it started to snow, lightly.
Very pretty!
Next morning, it was still snowing, so we thought that we better get the heck out of there, and packed up.
Got back to the truck, and barely made it to the small town,(Condor ), where my in laws has a quarter section north of that town, and where we had left our two young children
We left the horses , truck and trailer at a gass station in that town, and my husband;;s brother came and got us with a 4 X 4 ( our hauling truck, at the time, was only two wheel drive)
Next morning, we could not even get to the horses with 4 X 4, to feed or water them. Found someone in that town, finally to look after our horses
All roads, including highways, were closed for two days, with our horses standing in that trailer that long, before we could haul them home.
NOpe, I hate some of that `springtime in the Rockies

Here is Ian Tyson`s song, Mositure, and the pictures from the big flood we had in Alberta, resulting from some of that spring weather on the eastern slopes of the rockies , in 2011, where even down town Calgary was flooded
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdEQaN52n6g


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

The point that I didn’t make very well was that regardless of what the horse wants to do they need to listen to you if at any time you say “no” or “enough now” with your cues. That goes for drinking, grazing, playing, picking their own way across a creek, down or up a hillside, through brush or barbed wire fencing in your path. 

If I am on a horse that I know doesn’t give guff on that, then I give them a slightly longer leash to make their own executive decision so to speak. If on the other hand it is a horse that will challenge the cease and desist order, then EVERYTHING has to be my idea for a while. 

The last thing I want is to be arguing with a horse while he is continuing to insist on taking both of us into a (obvious to me) dangerous situation. They would still get to drink or eat, but on my terms, not theirs. Ex; come to a river, horse pulls on the reins to lower his head and drink. I say "no not here". Move him over a few feet, give him his head and he gets to drink there.

When we were first training Ollie under saddle we did something similar. He likes to trot and would find an opportunity to get in a stride or two before I rated him back down. He would do it again and I would rate him. Eventually he stopped trying to get his message across and we would do a good lap or two in the arena of walking, then I would ask for a trot….eventually giving him what was telling me he wanted.

I think it was Tom Dorrance who said to "make your idea their idea", sometimes I make their idea my idea, but on my terms.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Should a well trained horse wait for a cue from the rider before he stops to drink?

Yes or No please.

Thank You,

Harold


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

IMO Yes.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Should a well trained horse wait for a cue from the rider before he stops to drink?
> 
> Yes or No please.
> 
> ...


The horse lets me know that he wished to drink, so it is what you like to call almost telegraphic communication. In fact, I make a point of giving ahorse a chance to drink, when ever possible, even if he wants to rush ahead.
Sure, that does not mean stopping, so the horse behind him can't drink, but moving up enough so that the other horse can also drink, on a narrow crossing, where they can't drink side by side, and it also means that my hrose does not get to drink, right next to that other horse, ramming my leg against that horse's stirrup
I have dealt with enough impaction colics form horses not drinking enough, that i think it is stupid for a person not to allow a horse to drink
Horses are also smart, and it does not take a smart horse long to figure out that if he acts like he would like to drink, he can stop, thus the horse will 'pretend' he wants to drink at every little stream you cross, playing in that water, when those streams are pretty close togther. In that case, I give them the benefit of the doubt the first time, letting them fool around in that water, but after that , they don't get to goof around , just to delay going down that trail! Either drink, or move on!
To be blunt to the question asked no, but with conditions added, as above applied to that answer


----------



## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Hondo said:


> Should a well trained horse wait for a cue from the rider before he stops to drink?
> 
> Yes or No please.
> 
> ...


Generally speaking, the horse is the first to initiate communication concerning their desire to have a drink when near/in water. Whatever human response that past experiences with their rider gives the horse reason to expect is exactly what they will expect. How well they remember what to expect is unrelated to what a human consensus deems the most appropriate "way" to be allowed a drink. So, there is no answer to the question, IMO.


----------



## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

So, George the mule, Steve, where is the metaphysical horse thread?


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

If a horse has been working hard and I come across an opportunity for him to drink, I offer before he asks. 

As Smilie said, it is almost a telepathic communication.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Here's how the question was developed. I didn't just dream it up to test people or try to create confusion. It was put forward as a serious question directly related to training.

After deciding to clear up the communication lines about who was "in charge" in a previous post, the very first interaction I had with Hondo was leading him from the field to his alfalfa feeder in my front yard pen. As we passed the water trough about 20 feet from the feeder, Hondo gave three small jerks on the lead line to the right in the direction of the water trough which was only about three feet away.

I gave slack, he drank, we walked on up to the feeder and I unclipped the lead line. Then I thought, did I just teach him to jerk on the lead line when he wants something?

Then I thought about the many small streams we cross. I wondered, do I stop him or does he just stop? I really didn't/don't know. We just stop and he drinks. (and yes smilie, at times he will drop his head when we're ready to go, i think i want more, wait, i need to think about it a minute-at those time we move on-{i'm not THAT new}).

So I began to wonder, if I'm going to clear up (what may or may not be blurred) communication lines, should I be paying attention to this in terms of me slacking the reins before he stops but otherwise he should continue.

So I asked. So far I've learned that I don't have any common sense, I should be ashamed for letting my horse dehydrate (i've owned several camel bacs for my own endurance competition and am way on top of hydration for peak performance thank you), it's been suggested there is no answer to this particular training question, one yes, one no with a long laundry list.

So I reckon it's time to just punt and keep on doing what I've been doing by rationalizing that Hondo is soooo good at reading my body language by now that I'm actually communicating to him, "hey bro, take a drink if ya want".

Punting may become my standard default when faced with confusing and contradictory suggestions. As far as the branch thing, he goes way out of the way to avoid stuff for me. That was a fear based reaction. And one of our favorite animal behavior specialist says fear turns off all of the animals other brain functions, as proven by live brain scans.

So when Hondo snorts at a bog, I don't care where the cows are or how many, I dismount and check it out with/for him. And only then we move on. Hondo will never be chest deep in the mud with this newbie on his back, now or ten years from now.

Shifting gears........Hondo did a sleep over with me last night away from the herd so we could get out at 6AM this morning. He has finally gotten past pacing the fence. Do it about once per week. When I get up at night he is usually just grazing or munching alfalfa, or just standing around. I've been working really hard to get him to feel safe here at my compound.

All of the bad habits he had, plus fear, have gotten markedly better since I first met him about a year ago.

Better is better. I think I'm gonna be real careful before I change anything anything at all.

:hide::hug:


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

"They say, if it isn't broke, then don't fix it!"


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> "They say, if it isn't broke, then don't fix it!"


there ya go............


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

(Showing the horse/mule/donkey/dog etc appreciation and not taking it for granted.)



george the mule said:


> Sue, I do this as well. There have been times where I received a clear message of "I don't want to go out today", and put aside my riding plans in favor of a short walk and hand-grazing. There have also been times where George tried that attitude on just to see what I would do. Usually, after a couple iterations of "Are you sure? We'll have fun; stop and graze, visit the neighbors (horses)." he will decide to cooperate. And I mean this quite literally; you can almost see the cogs turning as he weighs the alternatives. And I always try to make good on my promises, and be sure that it _is_ fun for him. To tie into things we have read above in this thread; same as you would do if taking a child for a hike or the like.


I enjoyed reading this, thank you!  I can already see the book you will write as a recreation from microelectronics, and to show that you're not a monomanic nerd, but a multidimensional one ;-). But what will you call it?

I'll tell you a little story of everyday negotiation with my horse: When we're just riding the tracks on our own farm, we usually come past the house several times. And sometimes (most especially near feed time) when we go past the house he says, "It's time to go home now!" And if I head him back out, he'll put his brakes on momentarily, and stand there and look at me, "Don't you think it's time to go home?" And I'll say, "Well, I agree with you, it's just home is in this direction! (Pointing at the track.) It is most _definitely_ in this direction, so let's go - the long way there!" And he'll go, "Oh, OK!" And then he usually invites me to go fast (he likes to race the dog on the sand track for a kilometre or so into the last lap home - as she's a Kelpie and he's a fast horse, they're good competition for each other...you should see the looks they give each other...).




> I have always enjoyed the Harry Potter series, and have retained several gems, but the Hippogriff! What a great analogy. Thanks for pointing that out; I will have to dust off that volume and enjoy it again.


While it was clearly influenced by Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter is equally accessible to children (and adults) regardless of gender. As a kid I couldn't get into Lord of the Rings because the entire first chapter was all-male characters... It was like they were reproducing by fission again...

The Hippogriff thing just leaps out at me... as does the notion of hexing pigtails onto bullies and rude people! ;-) You know that Dudley and Harry in the zoo scene, where Dudley is obnoxious to the animals? I'm not sure what it's like where you are - but Perth Zoo is full of visiting Dudleys most days - screaming and running in the nocturnal house, banging on cage doors yelling at animals to "Do something, stupid!", crashing into elderly people, and other choice stuff like that. So the HP zoo scene isn't far-fetched at all, unfortunately. A lot of the stuff in the books isn't very far removed from what happens in the real world...

Taronga Park Zoo in Sydney, on the other hand, has always been a civilised place with a civilised crowd when I've been. Maybe they have some kind of invisible semi-permeable membrane at the gates that excludes Dudleys! ;-)




> And "Telepathic". Well. You guys probably think I'm nuts anyway; read on


Haha! :rofl: Most entertaining images conjured up. And I think having that kind of relationship with a non-human animal is seriously fun for both sides!


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi All!



Missy May said:


> So, George the mule, Steve, where is the metaphysical horse thread?


It's up.

Sue, see why I don't write for a living? "Gotta go; my Editor is on the line . . ." :-D
(Sorry, Missy; no offense intended.)

I don't like zoos; too depressing. And way too many of the Dursley clan in general. 



Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I think it was Tom Dorrance who said to "make your idea their idea", sometimes I make their idea my idea, but on my terms.


Reining, that was the way it was originally presented to me; "Make Your Idea His Idea", or something like that. When questioned as to how to accomplish this seemingly mystical task, I was offered the suggestions I outlined above.
"Tom Dorrance". I have run across the name before, but that's about it. How does he suggest attacking the problem (if you can summarize it easily)?

Harold, I don't have an answer for you, unless it is as Foxhunter suggests: The well trained Rider _offers_ his mount an opportunity to drink before his mount has to ask. Surely after all of this thread, you didn't expect a simple B&W answer ;-)

ByeBye! Steve


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

So many people have adopted or adapted what Dorrance applied that I could be getting my trainers into a blender, but I believe he also went with the concept of presenting the horse with a "right answer" and letting them determine that what you are asking them to do is also the best and easiest choice for them to make on their own. I believe he called it "willingness". 

TD only authored one book that I know of, he wasn't the most eloquent man, but he was very wise and by most accounts of people who knew him, had a great deal of inner peace about him. He wasn't interested in marketing. If you get a chance to read his book, I think you will find much usable advice there.

This is the one that I have somewhere. True Unity: willing communication between horse and human.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Sue, what is your interpretation of dominance?


That's a bit like asking me, what's your _interpretation_ of Rutherford's Atomic Model?

Where the analogy breaks down is that Rutherford's model, although simplistic with the benefit of hindsight, was based on extraordinarily well-conducted science (like the contemporary models that talk about probability spaces and are getting closer to reality). The dominance theory wasn't based on experiments/studies that were anywhere near as well-conducted, and the conclusions of those experiments/studies were too sweeping and have since been applied to all sorts of species and situations where they are not in fact a good fit.

Good reviews of these matters are easy enough to find even on the internet these days, and I won't re-hash them. For horse owners, though, I recommend Marthe Kiley-Worthington's "What It Is To Be Equine", which, for example, explores the _cooperative_ elements of herd dynamics that have traditionally been neglected by people who are only interested in dominance and submission and actually make up the vast majority of equine social interactions in a natural herd situation (as opposed to in horses that have been reared in buildings and kept mostly in isolation after weaning, or at best had limited turnout with one or two buddies, and at any rate never had the full opportunities for developing social skills afforded by growing up in a natural herd...kinda like using Romanian orphans or refugee camp inmates as a psychological standard from which to extrapolate to all humans).




> Certainly, I don't subscribe to old type training techniques, where horses were physically subdued, then bucked out, nor do i believe in throwing a horse, to show him that you can completely take away his flight ability, except in maybe very, very extreme cases.


Well, there we can both agree! 




> I do believe that you have to let a horse understand that you are dominant to him,


And I don't even think of it like that (and what's more, I think that concept is both anthropocentric and anthropomorphising at the same time, which is quite a feat ;-)). I just think, "Kindness, persistence, persuasion, two-way communication." I stand my own ground, but I see no necessity for doing any more.

When you come at horse training with a positive expectation of how the horse is going to respond, that is far more likely to lead to a fruitful relationship than foregrounding the idea, "I must impress on this horse at all costs that I am the boss." I foreground the idea, "We are going to have a lot of fun and we will both learn a lot, and the horse is going to want to work with me." - And this bears out in reality. My riding horse, for instance, free ranges with retired horses, donkeys and cattle, yet still comes over to me regularly when I'm working outdoors to suggest that now would be a good time to go for a ride. He has even walked up and placed himself at the tie rail and given me significant looks, like my dog does when she want to go for a walk, or for a ride in the car.

I also don't think, "Reward and punish" but rather, "Encourage and discourage." The late Tom Roberts, in his Horse Control series, is probably the most eloquent proponent of this view - and one of the rock stars of Australian history in terms of dealing with "problem" horses, and instructing horses and riders (starting as a cavalry riding instructor and horse trainer with the British army at age 16).




> thus not ever subjected to actions that a dominant horse bestows on a horse he considers lower in the herd order.


In a natural herd aggressive forms of interaction are far outweighed by cooperative forms of interaction, and a good lead horse doesn't bully or mistreat its herd members. Those sorts of scenarios are mostly created by the way horses are often raised in captivity - by frustration and lack of social skills.




> I don't know where you ride, but I ride in some pretty extreme wilderness, and there are situations on those trails, where having a horse second guess you, not trusting your leadership, can spell disaster.


Conversely: I've seen situations in Australian trail conditions where a horse has saved the rider's neck by being allowed the leeway to use its own (usually far superior) instincts for avoiding trouble. When you have a good _partnership_ with a horse, you work as a team and use your combined strengths, and you also have a sense of _merging_ with the horse and having a combined brain. This to me is one of the most profound relationships you can have with an animal of another species.


As a postscript, and for everyone on this thread to enjoy: Here is some inspirational footage of a person I met on HF developing a wonderful relationship with a mustang, and getting him to do all sorts of marvellous things in a calm, positive and cooperative way. It really is worth going back to the beginning of the archives to look at their remarkable journey. This person started in classical dressage and went through all sorts of lateral thinking far removed from mainstream horse fraternity ideas to come up with her philosophy towards horses and horse training, and I think her results speak for themselves.

https://augustusthemustang.wordpress.com/


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

And while I'm thinking of inspirational footage, I also really like this NZ lass' way with horses - NB she also thinks _partnership_ with horses, and has a good reputation for reforming "problem" horses:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxuqbZ0Q_9c

Wonderful warm, relaxed attitude coming off this girl - no wonder the horses work the way they do with her.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

george the mule said:


> Hi All!
> Harold, I don't have an answer for you, unless it is as Foxhunter suggests: The well trained Rider _offers_ his mount an opportunity to drink before his mount has to ask.


Well, I make no claims to being a well trained rider, but Hondo is patient. He says I'm improving and have made noticeable gains during my first year of instruction.

I believe he has me performing as described by FH.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I haven't read anything by Tom Roberts, but here is a picture of him riding. I'm wondering what his view is of hitting the horse with the crop he is carrying.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sue, yes , a good lead horse does not bully the other herd members, he does not have to, having established his position
You will also note, that I said, riding a well broke horse, if I am not sure of a situation out on the trail, then I give him 'permission' to 'lead'
That is way different from a horse taking control, and the latter case is what I referred to as dangerous.. There are times the human has to make that executive decision, and not have that horse question him.
My horses live in herds, I do not believe in confining horses, and you would know that, if you read any of my other posts, esp those posts that relate to physical and mental health of horses


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I have finished reading Smilie's favorite book by Temple and just ordered a copy of True Unity: Willing Communication Between Horse & Human by Tom Dorrance.

When I get this book digested, between Tom and Temple I'll know more than any of y'all.

You can then ask me questions and I will try to help you if I can.:hide:


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> a good lead horse does not bully the other herd members, he does not have to, having established his position


Edit: a good lead horse does not bully the other herd members, he does not have to, having already established his position by bullying. The herd now recognize him as a bully and stay out of the line of fire.

Over...................


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hondo said:


> Edit: a good lead horse does not bully the other herd members, he does not have to, having already established his position by bullying. The herd now recognize him as a bully and stay out of the line of fire.


Or they suck up to him to get first choice at the feeder. My big TB Oily is diligent about shooing the other boys, even if there's no real reason to, but I only rarely see him get after his clingy girlfriend Mandolin. He will let her take a cookie right out from under his nose most of the time. Pitiful ;-) Steve


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Today Hondo was figiting while I worked on his left hind. If he's frightened, I hang it up for a while. But he was just wanting to see where the herd was.

I lost it after a forceful withdrawal of his hind. I whacked him on the butt with the rasp. Didn't try to kill him for sure, but he felt it for sure. I'd say 1/3 of a second timing. 2 seconds I would have changed my mind.

Hondo straightened, got back in position, and actually raised his left hind and stuck it out back where I was previously holding it.

That just blew me away. I think it fits somewhere in the thread title. I'll be thinking about this for a while. I don't like punishment, but he "seemed" to think it might have been appropriate. He was not frightened at all. But he sure responded.


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi Harold!

Yep, I'd say that was a good example of punishment, _and_ accountability!

I still think of that as a "correction", tho;

Hondo was on the clock, he (obviously) knew he was on the clock, and you just used a little "bite in the a__" to remind him. No Worries, and back to business.

And by the sound of it, you probably won't have to do it again.

Good Job, I would imagine your herd status just got an upgrade 

ByeBye! Steve


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Hondo said:


> ...I lost it after a forceful withdrawal of his hind. I whacked him on the butt with the rasp. ...





george the mule said:


> ... I still think of that as a "correction"...



I think of it as a "consequence" *

Is there a thread on consequence vs correction ? 



* that is supposed to be me going incognito.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I inflicted pain a mili-second after a behavior. Behaviorist the world over define that as positive punishment. Call it what it is. The word positive in front makes it sound almost as nice or nicer than consequence.

I think of consequence as something that happen as a natural result of one's actions. Not something that is done to you by somebody.

As in, if you touch the hot stove, you'll burn your hand. But not as in, if you do such and such I'll bust your chops.


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Hondo said:


> ... if you touch the hot stove, you'll burn your hand. But not as in, if you do such and such I'll bust your chops.


Minimal change:

if you touch the hot stove, you'll burn your hand. If you do such and such your chops are busted.


On the other hand, if you step on my toe, my toe will be busted. Unfortunately, the consequence happens to my toe, not my horse.

I don't know where I am going, or coming from, in this post, haha.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Ha ha. Not sure of the point, but I do think there is one.

I guess that'd be one case where getting chops busted would be a "natural" result of stepping on someone's toes.


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Thanks,

consequence = natural result ?

No answer necessary.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Ann, does this distinction depend on the handler's personality? (If it's a reflex response, is it a consequence?  As opposed to if the person is thinking about it?)


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Hondo said:


> I haven't read anything by Tom Roberts, but here is a picture of him riding. I'm wondering what his view is of hitting the horse with the crop he is carrying.



Read his books!  Then you will know.

(Hint: Dressage rider.)


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Hondo said:


> Edit: a good lead horse does not bully the other herd members, he does not have to, having already established his position by bullying. The herd now recognize him as a bully and stay out of the line of fire.
> 
> Over...................


Well, I don't agree. Horses usually avoid bullies in situations where there is any choice - their own kind, and also the human kind if they can. Bully horses can end up ostracised by the herd, who choose to follow a kind leader instead. I've seen that happen myself, and you'll find it's also documented in the horse behaviour literature. I'll again recommend Marthe Kiley-Worthington's books (a Jane Goodall of the horse world). Mostly it's hard for us in the modern world to see the difference between natural horse behaviour, and pathological behaviour that's the result of the way horses are often bred, raised and kept in captivity. I've de-pathologised a number of unnaturally raised horses initially displaying aggression, frustration and poor social skills, and watched them become kind members, including leaders, in their herds - rather than bullies. It's a stepwise process, but it's really wonderful to watch how the horse blossoms!


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

SueC said:


> Ann, does this distinction depend on the handler's personality? (If it's a reflex response, is it a consequence?  As opposed to if the person is thinking about it?)


Positive punishment is something intentionally delivered to the recipient that causes physical discomfort with a specific objective of eliminating or reducing the re-occurrence of some behavior.

Negative punishment is the removal of something desirable from from the recipient of negative punishment with the same intention and objective.

A reflexive response would not fit either of those definitions.

The widespread misuse of the term consequences came into widespread misuse sometime back in the 70 or 80's here in the U.S. (don't know about elsewhere and don't pin me down on the years)

The misuse originated in the teaching profession where I spent a few years during the 60's and 70's.

I can only speculate why or how that happened but my speculation has always been that some people felt bad or guilty about punishing youngsters so they just chose to call it something else.

If you have read Tom Roberts and say he is not a horse beater I'll read him. Otherwise I'll stick to Tom Dorrance and others who I am impressed are not.

I have only one herd of horses, about 20, and daily visits walking among them and talking to them for the last year+ upon which to base my personal conclusions.

And my conclusions agree with Mark Rashid's conclusions who at least certainly knows more than I and most.

I believe however, your disagreement may be based on perhaps confusion of the term lead horse. There is a lead horse that absolutely establishes their position by force while there is another that is chosen by the herd. The first is avoided but deferred to, the second is the one the horses will spend time with. Mark Rashid goes into this in detail in Horses Never Lie.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree that often the lead horse is a bully. I had a mixed herd of ages running together, as I said before my mare was never in the lead or at a rush to get to a feeder yet othe youngsters would all hang with her. 
The horse you would say was leader was a bossy mare, she would get her own way by ears back and chasing another horse away. 
I don't know what had happened one day but as usual boss mare was forst to the feed bowl. My mare then spent th rest of the time just moving her on, no real chasing or threat, just ears back and 'that' look. 

One day when the youngsters were all in the loose barn, there were eight of them, I went in to feed. I would have the feed in a big bucket and starting one end, spread it along the feeder, a distance of 100 feet. They knew the rules, they could come in behind me but not in front. One horse decided that he wanted his feed *now* and charged into me from in front. I was furious and they all knew it. All the horses went into a far corner ignoring the feed whilst I went after the culprit, a cocky two year old that thought he knew it all. 

As he ran around the area the others stood quietly in the corner watching and not allowing him in amongst them. They never moved when I went past them because they _knew_ who I was mad at. 
I was throwing the feed bucket at him between his legs so that was demolished! 
When he was showing signs of submission I stopped, picked up what was left of th bucket, walked out, fixed more feed and continued to feed them. That youngster respectfully kept his distance and never tried to boss me again. 

The interesting thing was how the others knew they were not the ones in for correction.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Hondo said:


> Positive punishment is something intentionally delivered to the recipient that causes physical discomfort with a specific objective of eliminating or reducing the re-occurrence of some behavior.
> 
> Negative punishment is the removal of something desirable from from the recipient of negative punishment with the same intention and objective.
> 
> ...


Hondo, this post was a personal reply to a friend who understands when my tongue is in my cheek (I was having semantic fun). You and I have different opinions, but from what I can see, for different reasons than what you might think. 

And as for TR, or anyone else carrying a dressage whip, I reckon it's an incredible leap to conclusions to suggest they would use it as a weapon. It quite misunderstands why some people have dressage whips, lungeing whips etc. They are arm extensions, indicators. Maybe that's a cultural thing for me - I'm a native continental European, and in our culture only brutes were reckoned to beat horses with them. And yeah, I'm sure quite a few people in competitive dressage these days aren't particularly nice horse people. But the ones I chose to learn from were, to a T.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> The interesting thing was how the others knew they were not the ones in for correction.


I guess we all now know who the boss mare really is!


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

SueC said:


> Hondo, this post was a personal reply to a friend who understands when my tongue is in my cheek (I was having semantic fun).


Sorry, I can be a little slow on jokes. Got a little English in me. A saying in our family is to never tell an English a joke on Saturday because he will laugh out loud in church on Sunday.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I don't see the 
Boss horse' in a herd as being the bully horse at all
THat horse makes his position clear, then after that, only needs to giva 'look' or flick an ear to confirm his position
When a new horse is introduced to that herd, in is not the alpha horse in my experience that is the horse that is aggressive towards that new horse, but rather those lower down, making sure they maintain their present position in the herd


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with you over the sorting out in a herd.

I would sometimes have two brood mares in the loose barn, they never grew up with being kept this way. What I found was that if I put 1 and 2 together in one half and 3 and 4 the other side there were always scraps and nastiness, put 1 and 3 and 2 and 4 they were fine. 

When I took my mare to stud the owner asked what she was like, if she was bossy she would go with other bossy horses. I said she wasn't but would be fine with the bossy mares as she would soon be boss. 
I wasn't believed. She went out with six other mares, non with foals, they immediately rushed up to sort things out. 
Madam just walked through them all and ignored them, she started eating and they all tried to stir her up but she ignored. When one mare turned to try and double barrel her she just moved out of range.

An hour later they were all grazing. Another mare arrived and was put in with them. Non even bothered to go over, when the new mare was in there a little bit of squeezing went on but no nastiness at all. 

The stud owner wanted to keep her so as she was ere to keep the peace!


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I think the lead/boss mare,Smilie and Foxhunter, that you are each describing are the two types of lead mares found in most herds as described by Mark Rashid in Horses Never Lie.

One acquires the position by force, and the other is chosen by the herd and never uses force. For lack of a better term, he termed that mare as the passive leader.

The passive leader he described to my memory was almost identical to Foxhunter's mare's behavior.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

All the dominant mares that I had, only had to put that message across once, sometimes in a very forceful way, towards another horse that though of challenging her position, and then her position was never questioned again, and certainly not tot he extent of that first assertion 
That dominant horse simply does not have to keep asserting her position-the rest of the herd acknowledges it
Now, if you add into the equation, food aggression, then you have changed that dynamics, as horses sn the wild, unlike some domestic horses, don't get the mind set, through regulated feeding schedules, that they better assert themselves and grab all the food they can-it's all around them, all the time


----------



## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Well, my old buckskin, which I had the majority of my life, was "boss man", whether you put him with 3 or 30 horses, mares and/or geldings. He was not a bully - ever. He made his point, if another dared challenge it - he made sure they didn't make that mistake_ twice_. I never saw him jump in another's "stuff" without cause or go overboard. That is not the same as "bully", more like a drill sergeant. He was only 14 hh, but he was very athletic and had attitude - he was the epitome of self confidence. He kept himself and "his" safe, no question. He had been raised in several square miles, so he did know how to stay safe. In fact, there were several times I got "us" into a bit of a pickle, and just handed it all over to him. His "attitude" made even people "believe" in him. Aaand, he got us out, each and every time.

He spent his last few years on family pasture. They have a favorite story about him. They had put out mineral blocks in the pasture he was in - all well spaced to ensure everyone could "get some" w/o squabbling. They had gotten up higher on the mountain putting out the blocks and looked down to see what unfolded. Although there were several blocks, my old guy decided that one particular block that a strapping young bull was interested in was_ particularly_ to his liking, and the bull could shove off and find another. That sounded like him, alright, but I _cringed_ at that part of the story and wasn't sure I wanted to hear the rest b/c he had always been a proud little guy, and never "lost" - but wasn't a youngster anymore. Well, he and the bull apparently had an argument, but no contact was made and they reached some sort of "save face" agreement. The _oddest_ part of all that was that thereafter they hung out together. That was him his entire life, he established his position and never backed down - to the very end, apparently. So, you could say he never "lost", but he had once had to reach an agreement.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

All animals, well mammals at least, have the emotions of fear and aggression and they are inversely related with few exceptions.

High Fear=Low Aggression
Low Fear=High Aggression

And of course both emotions are related to survival as in flight or fight.

In a group of one species, horse, dog, people, the lowest fear/highest aggression will be the dominant individual. Low fear dogs can be very dangerous. People too. And sometimes they don't survive very well. Fear and aggression need a proper balance for the best survival.

Within a species, the low fear high aggression individual is readily recognized by the other members. Normally only another member who is nearly as low fear/high aggression will challenge the dominant for perks of being dominant.

So it is true that the dominant seldom has to use force to maintain the position. Simply the treat of force by the lower fear and more aggressive is usually enough to maintain the position.

Same thing for bullies. They seldom have to use force to maintain their position. The threat is usually enough. But the threat of force is still force to my thinking.

I maintain the alpha horse is a bully by definition.

There is scientific research all over the world supporting and confirming my belief in this.

Over..............


----------



## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

There is a difference IMO to what most people define as a "bully" and what would qualify as "qualified to be a leader and will defend their position". One is a personality, the other is the use of force when necessary. Wolf packs that are most successful, for example don't necessarily have leaders that obtained and maintained their "head honcho" position by sheer aggression.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

The passive leader that Mark Rashid describes in Horses Never Lie never ever uses any force what so ever. She just stays out of the line of fire much as the mare described by Foxhunter. And most just decide to follow her but will still submit to the forceful mare.

The passive leader mare never tries to acquire leadership and never tries to retain it. If anything, she simply leads by example.

I was thinking about this today in terms of the fear/aggressive emotions and I'm just wondering if the passive mare is an exception in the balance of those two emotions and is both low fear and low aggression.

If I were a horse, that would be the type of leader I would choose. And I think I'd likely choose that type of person also.



Foxhunter said:


> .
> Madam just walked through them all and ignored them, she started eating and they all tried to stir her up but she ignored. When one mare turned to try and double barrel her she just moved out of range.
> 
> An hour later they were all grazing. Another mare arrived and was put in with them. Non even bothered to go over, when the new mare was in there a little bit of squeezing went on but no nastiness at all.
> ...


----------

