# Keep your head high horsey!



## Jehanzeb (Nov 2, 2008)

Morning all,

This might be a simple question for some but certainly pretty difficult for me. _(please note: I am not that good with horse terminology so bear with me)_

I had a riding lesson yesterday and for the third time I had to ride (Polthos a welsh x something) horse. Firstly he is huge, bulky and has lots of hair on his feet. You might get the idea of the horse I am talking about.

Anyhow, the horse kept his head low all the time even when trotting and cantering. I could not understand what could be the problem. I tried to keep his head high by keeping my reins short but then it was hard to keep him trotting. When loosen reins a bit he keeps his head low again. It was pretty difficult to control him because of his share size and strength (my arms are still aching).

Saying that, later on in the lesson he was pretty easy to control though kept his head low.

I tired to ask my trainer how to keep his head high and she said he must be feeling lazy so kick him and keep him in active trott. Though it seemed he was quite active while trotting to me however his head was still down which was a mystery to me (I didn't bother asking my trainer again as I thought she would reply the same again).

I don't know how to keep his head high. I tried to tell him "General horses always keep their heads high!!" but I guess they don't understand our language. ;-)

Any ideas?

Regards

Jehanzeb


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## highlander (Oct 26, 2008)

in what way low? was he working on a contact? it sounds like he was leaning by your arms hurting, and probably fighting you with how tight the rein was.
The horse may not enjoy the schooling work so being lazy, so it may be you need to reliese him a little and let him work as he feels comfortable, if you haven't been riding for long it could be that he is working to your experience. 
this is all thought to think over. more information is needed.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Jehanzeb, A Western horse will typically carry his head low and that's a good thing. That is what most riders want to achieve. That being said, how low is low and was his nose straight out or was his face vertical to the ground? 

You didn't mention what bit he was on but I'm hoping that if you were riding with short reins that it was a snaffle. When you held the reins short, hoping to elevate his head, you were actually stopping his forward movement.

If he was moving freely and being responsive, that is just his natural head carriage and should be left alone. If he was stumbling over himself as he walked then he was being lazy and you need to ride with more leg and seat. Slouching in the saddle means you are no longer "riding" him and he will get lazy. 

One other option may be just as highlander suggested and that he is just tired of the ring and beginners thumping on him. 

Some pictures would really help.


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## Jehanzeb (Nov 2, 2008)

Hello and thanks for your input. To be honest I am not sure how to explain the whole situation properly.

The head was not that low that he was trying to touch ground. It was as low as if you sit on a horse and his neck and head is fallen (i.e. you are literly riding a headless horse).

Ok it doesn't sound right what I just said, let me try again.

Here is the image










Hope this makes more sense.

I think when you say people try to keep horse head low, you might mean by keeping their head low as they look like a Swan? but that was not the case.

Also I noticed when my instructor kept two poles on the ground and asked us to walk over them. In most cases his legs were hitting the pole. When I asked her, she said he is being lazy. Not sure if that was any true.

I think next time I'll take a photo and post it instead of trying explaining with words as I am not good with wording things specially when it comes to horses.

Regards


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

My qh keeps her head low too - it's just her head set. And as iride said you really want it for western horses. My paint keeps it low on trot sometime (when she's VERY relaxed) and I really like it, however most of the times she keeps it high because she's overexited almost all the time on ride. 

Look at this one: Zippos Blue Goose for example - the head is low... Is that what you are talking about or ot some kind of extreme?


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## Jehanzeb (Nov 2, 2008)

Yes Yes, that is how low it was. You got it.

So is that natural and good for the horse to keep it that low? I thought it was because he's been lazy.

Regards


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

IMO (which I'm sure other people won't agree with) it is better for the horse to keep their head at their natural position. Some horses are built to carry their head up high...where others are built to keep their head down low.

If my horse kept that headset throughout all his gaits I'd be entirely pleased! My horse will keep his head like that, but will occasionally go down almost to the ground while trotting to stretch or sniff poop (but doesn't want to stop lol).

If he was walk/trot/canter, he's not being lazy. If he is a western horse, he was probably trained to carry his head that way. Unless you are planning on doing dressage with him or something that requires the head up, I'd say let him carry his head the way he wants....if he listens well with it. That's just my opinion.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

This is a typical head carriage for a Western horse but some will naturally carry their heads lower and some higher. What does your horse look like in comparison?


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## Painted Ride (Jun 30, 2008)

SonnyWimps said:


> IMO (which I'm sure other people won't agree with) it is better for the horse to keep their head at their natural position. Some horses are built to carry their head up high...where others are built to keep their head down low.
> 
> If my horse kept that headset throughout all his gaits I'd be entirely pleased! My horse will keep his head like that, but will occasionally go down almost to the ground while trotting to stretch or sniff poop (but doesn't want to stop lol).
> 
> If he was walk/trot/canter, he's not being lazy. If he is a western horse, he was probably trained to carry his head that way. Unless you are planning on doing dressage with him or something that requires the head up, I'd say let him carry his head the way he wants....if he listens well with it. That's just my opinion.


 sonny i agree with you!!! it would be crazy for a person to try to make a qh into a tennessee walker! or vice versa!


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

Tb, that would be scary during a QH into a TWH *shudders at the thought*

Also where the horse carrys his head can let you know how he's feeling. A head up really high can also mean there is pain some where...where as a lowered head can mean that the horse is calm and relaxed.
You don't really want a horse that is going to carry it's head up extremely high (unless trained to like some gaited breeds...but even that I do not like) because it means the horse is either paniced, in pain, or there's just something out there that's bothering him. If Sonny carrys his head like that I get off and do groundwork to see if it's pain or wahtver


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## Painted Ride (Jun 30, 2008)

^ my thoughts exactly!:wink:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

SonnyWimps said:


> IMO (which I'm sure other people won't agree with) it is better for the horse to keep their head at their natural position. Some horses are built to carry their head up high...where others are built to keep their head down low.


I do agree with it. I don't show though, so may be that's the reason, but I let my horses to keep the head the way they prefer.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I will disagree with Sonny et al. 

Yes, a horse should carry its head in the carraige it wants to - *to a point*. I'm not saying I expect TWHs to carry their heads like western pleasure QHs, but there is a fine point about head carraige.
The point about headset is to get the horse working through its body and using its back, which allows the hind legs to engage. Engagement of the hind legs allows them to come up under the body, so the horse can rock back on its hocks and really use itself.
Most horses (90% of them) don't carry themselves like that naturally. 
Does that mean it's evil to "make" them carry themselves well? No.
Most humans don't carry themselves properly either - and if we were trained to do so, we would have less health problems (such as sore backs, bad knees, etc.) So there is function to the form.
If you let horses carry their heads "their way" then most would look like camels. It's not the proper way to carry themselves (especially with a rider) and can lead to health problems down the road. 
Now, keep in mind that each different breed has their own "correct" way of carrying their head so they're using their backs and bodies well. 
For example:









This horse is carrying its head the "natural" way - see the hollowed out back? How heavy he is on the forehand? It may be a natural headset for this horse, but it's not correct, by that I mean that the horse is not using its body correctly and could be much more comfortable in a frame.










(not the absolute best example, but I didn't want to go digging though gazillions of pictures.)
See the difference? The horse has elevated its neck and is engaged through the hindquarters. The back is rounded, allowing the haunches to drive through and be the "engine" that is making this trot spectacular. 

*zips flame suit up*


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

What JDI stated is that the horse is enhanced from its normal "natural" balance to "acquired" balance through the intervention of a rider that balances it power and ability over the entire horse.

The above two pictures show the difference between "natural" and "acquired" balance.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Spyder said:


> What JDI stated is that the horse is enhanced from its normal "natural" balance to "acquired" balance through the intervention of a rider that balances it power and ability over the entire horse.





Spyder said:


> The above two pictures show the difference between "natural" and "acquired" balance.




Thank you for summing that up for me Spyder!


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## Jehanzeb (Nov 2, 2008)

Well for me, the hand made picture I showed was somewhat similar to what second picture is like. However, as I am not that experienced with horses as yet I can't really argue in here. what I would say though is that sometimes when horse keeps their head low, they do tend to slow down on trots and gives a big time to the rider. Just like it happened in the lesson on Tuesday. It almost seemed like he doesn't want to run.

Anyhow, I just hope that I don't get the same horse for next million lessons. My arms are still aching because of his share strength which I had to bear in the lesson.

Regards

Jehanzeb


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

What you might have felt was "contact" - not leaning. While horses DO balance on their own, they're also taught to accept the rider's contact, so they don't duck behind the bit, but rather work on contact, which to some feels like they're pulling. A well trained horse doesn't pull though, they simply maintain a steady contact with the bit.
As well, perhaps you are riding a well-schooled horse that has become dead to the aids, that is, doesn't "go fast when you kick" because it has just been dead-sided from beginners riding it without finesse (and no, I'm not taking a stab at you, you find it in most schoolies).
The trick to getting them un-deadened is to employ an "ask, tell, demand" system. First ask them nicely to go forward - that is, use your calves and squeeze lightly on the horse's barrel, and you can use your voice to cluck at him as well. If there is no response, "tell" the horse to move forwards - give a kick and get more aggressive with your voice. If there is still no response, then let all heck break loose and DEMAND he move forwards; use a whip, use spurs, whatever. Of course reward by taking the pressure off as soon as he does what you want.
If you're new to riding, then your instructor probably put you on a well-schooled lazy horse for good reason - they want to be able to teach you without worrying that the horse is going to take off with you. As you progress you'll get horses that will test you a little more. 
I know when I teach beginners I put them on really lazy but well schooled horses - to the point where I sometimes have to stand in the middle of the ring with a lunge whip to help the student out.


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## Jehanzeb (Nov 2, 2008)

Yes you are right! the situation you described "Ask, Tell, Demand - ATD" is exactly what I employ but most of the time first two are used as I don't get a whip because my school instructor says he might run very fast suddenly. Additionally I don't know how to use the whip properly either.

You are right sometimes I get to use a very active horse, very responsive and some days I get the laziest horse in the whole wild world.

I guess it's all part of the learning stage.

Regards


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

JDI, a horse can learn by itself to carry himself properly without us interfering. Yes for a long time they might carry themselves wrong....but there will ALWAYS be that time when the take off with themselves properly carried and it will hit them "OMG it's easier for me to carry myself this way!"

Personally, I'd rather have my horse be able to realize it's easier for him to carry himself and have him be able to do it himself, them having me to constantly remind him.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

SonnyWimps said:


> Personally, I'd rather have my horse be able to realize it's easier for him to carry himself and have him be able to do it himself, them having me to constantly remind him.


Horses are inheritently lazy. They will not do more than what they have to to get whatever they want done. Certainly you will see a horse display himself and come into "collection" but there was a reason for it like a threat or maybe showing to a mare.

If we plan on improving them so they use themselves in a more productive way ( equal balance and use of ALL muscles) then we will have to show them the way. Again certainly the horse will use himself better after our interference but that would be because the use of muscle groups left idle under "natural" balance become stronger and it simply becomes easier to use them than not.

There is nothing really wrong with just letting a horse mosey through life doing only the barest of work, but don't ever expect that horse to suddenly collect or do things it has not been prepared for.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

SonnyWimps said:


> JDI, a horse can learn by itself to carry himself properly without us interfering. Yes for a long time they might carry themselves wrong....but there will ALWAYS be that time when the take off with themselves properly carried and it will hit them "OMG it's easier for me to carry myself this way!"
> 
> Personally, I'd rather have my horse be able to realize it's easier for him to carry himself and have him be able to do it himself, them having me to constantly remind him.


I'd rather "interfere" (as you put it) and show my horse the way to travel properly and get them schooled right off the bat. Why? Because, as Spyder said, horses are inherently lazy. I do not know many horses that would "figure it out."
No, they do not ALWAYS go "OMG it's easier to carry myself this way" because it's *not*. Generally it's really hard for them to carry themselves properly because their muscles are not trained to do it. It will be hard and they will use new muscles and it will hurt for the first little while because it's a new sensation.
Just like for humans - like I said, 99% of us do NOT carry ourselves properly! And if you try to correct it, it's going to be hard work!! Believe me, I've been there! I had a physiotherapist work with me for months to get me to walk "properly" and it was _hard._ (Now it's easy... but it took a lot of muscle training.) 
I would love to meet a horse that was all "omg, I'm going to carry myself right without being taught" because that is very rare. 
This is why you have to school them to carry themselves properly. And yes, I agree, a well-schooled horse should carry itself properly without you having to do anything, but to get to that stage takes a LONG time. But once the horse is well-schooled to carry itself properly, you should be able to toss away the reins and have the horse maintain balance and a frame, and impulsion from the hindquarter.


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## Brandon (Jan 17, 2008)

Jehanzeb- I understand what you are going through. The very first horse I rode in January held her head low, she was a western horse and carried her head like one. This horse was a SPECTACULAR lesson horse, and let me tell you, this horse was stubborn and hard to motivate. This horse was very slow aswell, so it gave the beginner ride a good feel for the horse. 

This horse would not trot unless you were ABSOLUTELY sure you wanted to trot. If you had one thing wrong then she would not trot (perfect for beginner riders). THis horse MADE me get in the right position and MADE me ask correctly before she trotted or loped. 

Jahenzeb, I think the horse you are riding is fine. I would suggest that you let this horse have a loose rein. When you pull back (even the slightest) it will cause the horse to either stop or slow down "easy up". 

I don't know if your trainer is having you use Direct reining or indirect reining, but put your hands on the withers. This will stop you from pulling back. 

Thanks,
Brandon


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Great post Brandon, and a perfect exmaple


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## Jehanzeb (Nov 2, 2008)

Brandon I agree with you and yes I have experienced the same as when I joined the equestrian centre they gave me the laziest and stubborn horse in this planet. Who wouldn't walk fast let alone trott until you kick him too many times.

Though the horse I tried last time was even stubborn then the one before.

I do agree that lazy and stubborn horses are best for teaching however when you have 45mins of struggle in 45mins of lesson (shared with 3 other people who are running faster around the arena because of good horses) then you don't have much choice other than complaining/or keeping yourself quite and hope the lesson ends asap.

Anyhow, to be honest I don't compare myself with others as I believe you have some good days some bad days. Additionally I am and will be learning at my own pace so why care what others say or do.

I have noted all of your (you all) suggestions and will def try them in my next lesson if I get the lazy bum again!

Regards


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

Not all horses are lazy...yes some are...but defiantely not all.
Forcing the horse in order to "school" them to carry themselves properly isn't the right thing. Look how tight that rider has her reins (in the dressage picture).


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## Brandon (Jan 17, 2008)

In my opinion, you are turning the lesson into a "Bad" one. Of course, I have OFF days, but then I check everythin i am doin and work on them. What you need to do is when this horse does not want to go for you, you need to do this "kick, slap with reins on shoulder, cluck" all at the same time and you may have to do it acouple of times. I bet i could get on that horse and make him lope, because the horse i told you about that i rode who was really stubborn and gave me hell all the time.. I MADE her lope, and I MADE her do what I requested.

simply kicking the horse harder, is not enough (and not the proper way) to make her go. Like i said above, "kick, slap with reins on shoulder, and cluck" that should get her goin.

Try that and see if that helps you, or request another horse (even though I think thats the easy way out, and i personally wouldn't do that).

THanks,
Brandon


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

SonnyWimps said:


> Not all horses are lazy...yes some are...but defiantely not all.
> Forcing the horse in order to "school" them to carry themselves properly isn't the right thing. Look how tight that rider has her reins (in the dressage picture).


Like I said, most horses WILL NOT figure out how to carry themselves properly - believe me, I see a lot of them every day - horses in their teens, even twenties, that have been ridden (not in a frame) most of their lives, and whaddayaknow, they don't carry themselves properly (in a frame) - why? Because it's hard at first!! 
There might be the odd few that have a lightbulb moment, but that is exceedingly rare. 
And as for the rein comment - it's "contact".. english riders always maintain contact with their horse's mouths; we are not pulling nor being "mean" to the poor horsie but maintaining contact for finesse. 
I think that making a horse carry you (general you) around for hours on end doing schooling without being in a frame or attempting a frame is hard on a horse.
My gelding would definitely be more than happy to go all day looking like a camel with his head up high in the air, but it's not good for his back, hence why I work him in a frame.
Most horses like to travel like this:
English:









(AND she has contact!! Yikes!)
Western:










When they should travel like this:









(slightly behind vertical.)


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

As many have said before the only way to build a topline is to work in the proper frame? Then explain why at least 10 (if not more) of the horses at the stables where I ride has great toplines yet the owner rides them the same as I do...no contact and not making them collect. If working in the proper frame is the ONLY way to get a horse to build a topline, then they must be carrying themselves in the proper frame at least some of the time to get the topline.

Sonny went from having zero topline to a fairly decent one...we definately are not done with building it up...he still needs more, but he definately has a better one than he did.
So what exactly was I doing differently? Well before I'd use contact on the reins and push him forward to get him to round his back and carry himself properly.
Now, he does whatever he wants with his head providing he doesn't stop and look at me for food :lol: hehe...he carries his neck and head where he wants to, he carrys his back the way he wants to....yet how come his topline is building?

A horse should be responsible for looking where it's going, going to where it's supposed to be (like the rail or towards a jump, etc), be able to maintain the gait without the rider constantly nagging on them to keep it (yes this takes training and me and Sonny defiantely don't have it down....well at least not in the trot...canter possibly though) and learn how to carry themselves.
Sonny is defiantely not in the best of shape. He's overweight (because winter is coming), he lost alot of his muscles in his back legs (slowling gaining back).

I guess I'm more into NH than anyone here and maybe I'm the only one seeing results in the way I like to do things...which doesn't really surprise me if that is the case.


Brandon, OMG I rode a horse like that the other day. Gosh did he hate me (I felt bad cause I loved that horse lol). It took me 10 minutes to get on his back, then more to trot, then to canter lol. The way I got him to go was...he liked to go to the gait lol so I'd ask when we were on the side of the gait then continue around lol


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

SonnyWimps said:


> As many have said before the only way to build a topline is to work in the proper frame? Then explain why at least 10 (if not more) of the horses at the stables where I ride has great toplines yet the owner rides them the same as I do...no contact and not making them collect. If working in the proper frame is the ONLY way to get a horse to build a topline, then they must be carrying themselves in the proper frame at least some of the time to get the topline.
> 
> Sonny went from having zero topline to a fairly decent one...we definately are not done with building it up...he still needs more, but he definately has a better one than he did.
> So what exactly was I doing differently? Well before I'd use contact on the reins and push him forward to get him to round his back and carry himself properly.
> ...


Sonny I am NOT into Parellism and NEVER will be. I could have answered your post on this thread

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/head-up-too-high-how-correct-12891/page4/

But I find that Parelli followers are so fanatic that I just won't waste my time in responding to them anymore. What you see in your eyes is different to what I will see and we will NEVER meet.

You said your horse was bored in the other thread and now you say it is overweight. Winter is coming where I am and my horse is not overweight, he is FIT and that was brought about by me MAKING him fit. He is not bored in spite of having to be out alone in his paddock, because I make things interesting. He does not crib or stall walk or weave or any other such things. Why ? I would like to say because I don't have him doing mindless "games" with no other purpose than to see that he can follow a carrot stick !

You have your opinion of dressage horses and their training.

I have my opinion of "parellism" and its "training"

Is your horse as bored as this one?


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## Brandon (Jan 17, 2008)

Allie, I have a question. I am, honestly, not very knowledgable about "the topline" but my nana carries her head maybe just abit higher than her withers. Is my nana carryin her head properly? I have actually never really worried or thought about it. I mean, she seems to do fine other than her need for speed attitude lol.

If she is not carryin her head properly, how would i fix it? I mean, i obviously don't put use contact, soooo I am just a bit curious.


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## Dumas'_Grrrl (Apr 2, 2008)

Please, before this turns into a NH vs. Conventional war. I want to remind you all that we have rules here and it would be much appreciated if we all followed them. Keep this discussion kind and friendly. 

Horse training is NOT an exact science and there are many, many ways to teach horses. 

If you disagree with a method that was suggested. Please only suggest your way. Not any ONE method will work for ALL horses and more importantly not for ALL riders/trainers.

Thanks for understanding and keeping this thread civil.


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## Jehanzeb (Nov 2, 2008)

I think what we need to do here is not to point at each other with quoting in capital letters as it almost seems like you are over emphasizing on things whereas it might not be the case.

All I wanted to know was why the lazy horse kept the head low while I wanted him to run with head high. Additionally what I should be doing in my next lesson to make him what I want him to do.

I did get my answers and suggestions from allot of people here and I appreciate everyone's input in this matter.

Lets end the "pointing" here and wait till Tuesday night so that I try what you all have suggested and post what was the outcome in the lesson.

Then you can suggest me further how to correct things which might go wrong in the lesson.

Can we make that deal here? 

Regards


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## moomoo (Feb 21, 2007)

That was great advice Brandon  and I also agree with Spyder and JDI but I won't bother wasting my voice on deaf ears.

ETA: Good luck on Tuesday! I also had a ****** of a pony but they teach you a heck of a lot!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

*Jehanzeb, *best of luck in your next lesson. Please do keep us updated on your progess, I'd love to hear it.

I am done with this mindless debate, you all obviously know my position (and Spyder's, since we have the same views) and if anyone wants to discuss it further with me I will gladly do so via PM. (Brandon, this means you too  )
I obviously do not see eye to eye with some other members and that's fine.


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## bedouin (Oct 12, 2008)

*Jehanzeb, hello, How is your experience of your ridinglessons nowadays ?*
*Please I am very curious and like to ask you to ask a friend of yours to make PHOTO'S!*


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## Jehanzeb (Nov 2, 2008)

Morning Bedouin,

My lessons are going good, though I do it only once a week. Tuesday nights. not everyday.

I had a fantastic lesson last night. It was very good. I have made a thread called "What a lesson" under horse riding section explaining how it was.

As far as the head of the horse is concern, to be honest I didn't get that lazy bone since then so I can't really say how it all went. However saying that if I do get the horse again I will know how to control it this time  as per everyone's advise here.

I thought you were asking me to tell you how it is being done instead of you telling me how it's actually being done.

I did get confuse there. Very confused! hahaha ;-)

Regards


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