# Newborn Color, Bay to Black?



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Baby looks bay to me and will likely stay bay.

Since mama is bay dun, the only possibilities are black, bay, grullo or bay dun. 

What colors were the dam's parents? She almost looks dunskin (dun + buckskin), rather than bay dun, TBH.
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## Havilah (Oct 1, 2014)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Baby looks bay to me and will likely stay bay.
> 
> Since mama is bay dun, the only possibilities are black, bay, grullo or bay dun.
> 
> ...


Mare's sire was Grullo and her dam was either grullo or dun.


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Cute baby! Definitely bay or brown. Mom does look dunskin or even smokey brown+dun (brown+cream+dun) with that dark face. If there's a more correct term for that I can't think of it at the moment.


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## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Baby looks bay to me and will likely stay bay.
> 
> Since mama is bay dun, the only possibilities are black, bay, grullo or bay dun.
> 
> ...


Red and red dun are also possibilities from a Black and Bay Dun. 


Baby looks bay though.


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

I agree. The foal looks bay.

Horses generally don't totally morph colors when they shed their foal coat, unless of course they're going to turn gray, then you may see a significant change at their first shedding, and Appaloosa foals may begin to develop a varnish that wasn't previously visible. 

As a general rule, foal coats are a bit lighter than the adult coat, so a black foal may look a little moussy but will shed out black, or a bay may be light bay, almost buckskin but then shed out to a medium bay. Chestnut foals may be born looking a little flaxen. Foals sometimes have counter shading that looks like primitive markings. This is why foals are often mistaken for being dun, but these markings often fade with the first shedding. Of course there are outlyers and unusual circumstances, but this is the norm I've observed.

It is unlikely that a foal that looks unmistakably bay, with a clearly red body, would totally lose the red pigment and turn black. And it's unlikely for a foal that is clearly undiluted, to suddenly develop a dilute at the first shedding. If anything it might appear to happen the other way around.

Your filly is gorgeous, btw! Bay tobiano is one of my favorite colors!


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

I'd say that baby's going to stay bay or brown. As for foals going from bay to black I have seen it happen. My colt (Morgan Horse) was born a nice light bay color, by his yearling birthday he was a very dark bay (thought this was the color he would end up as, as poster have posted). This year that color's only deepened so he's black in patches and brown in patches. 

I think he's shedding out darker each year as his granddam is black, his granddsire is black and his sire is a nice bronze bay color. His dam was a very dark bay (almost black). And he is a bit of a late bloomer. So I have seen it happen but he's really the first in 20 years that I can definitely say is shedding darker every year....Never seen it with paints though..... 

I love your filly though!!!! She's gorgeous!!!!!! If you don't like what color she ends up you can always send her my way! ;-) jk


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## Red Gate Farm (Aug 28, 2011)

I believe foals what will turn black when mature, start out very dark with a gun metal sheen to the coat. At least, that's what a breeder told me years ago.


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## Havilah (Oct 1, 2014)

Incitatus32 said:


> I'd say that baby's going to stay bay or brown. As for foals going from bay to black I have seen it happen. My colt (Morgan Horse) was born a nice light bay color, by his yearling birthday he was a very dark bay (thought this was the color he would end up as, as poster have posted). This year that color's only deepened so he's black in patches and brown in patches.
> 
> I think he's shedding out darker each year as his granddam is black, his granddsire is black and his sire is a nice bronze bay color. His dam was a very dark bay (almost black). And he is a bit of a late bloomer. So I have seen it happen but he's really the first in 20 years that I can definitely say is shedding darker every year....Never seen it with paints though.....
> 
> I love your filly though!!!! She's gorgeous!!!!!! If you don't like what color she ends up you can always send her my way! ;-) jk



No! I love her color! Well, I have to admit, I work with a bay tobiano that is NOT my favorite horse. But that's just his personality. LOL. So when I think about the baby, I think of the only other Bay Tobi I know... And I'm making a negative connection. 
But I know she's going to be beautiful, and she is beautiful, and she is changing my mind about Bay Tobis! Haha! 

Did your boy have a black mane and tail from the beginning or was it lighter like his coat?

Thank you all for your kind remarks!! <3 And she ain't going nowhere so hands off!  

I honestly really do like bays, I'm just so curious about how beautiful she will be when she's big. 

I also always loved the black (tobiano? don't remember) in Bonanza... Little Joe's. <3 Lol!


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

He had a black mane and tail, he did have black points on his legs but I thought that was typical of a bay. lol And I totally get it, I can't stand gaited horses because of two horses that ruined them for me. 

Oh darn, well I'll have to look at her through the pictures you will post, y'know forum rules and all that! ;-)


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Our appy was born solid chestnut but turned completely grey by two. Appy genes are crazy though, lso had a paint who was born black and white but shed to a cream color, never even figured out what caused that.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

My money would be on BAY.
What a pretty baby! Love the foal whiskers.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Black foals vary in color as newborns. But I have yet to see a very bay newborn turn to a true black (there are very dark bays that appear black but have at least one agouti which means they are not a true black, just a very dark bay or maybe brown)

All pictures here are of black foals only hours old. 

First three foals are full siblings, sire tested EE aa, non fading as a bonus and the dam is a black tobiano mare, also no agouti so the foals are guaranteed to be black with no agouti. 



























These two foals are also full siblings and paternal half siblings to the first three. Sire is tested EE aa and dam is tested Ee aa (she fades in the sun really badly which is why color testing was done on her as it ended an argument because two of my sisters were convinced she was a dark bay)


















Some of these foals went through color changes before going black, the last foal pictured actually looked very bay at about two months old but all these foals were unmistakably black by the time they were growing winter coats.
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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

My guess is he may get a little bit darker , but stay a bayish color. 
Mom is a lined back dun , or dunskin since she has the buckskin color, do not see bay in the dam.
What color is the Sire ? of this foal ? si the sire a bay ? sorrel ? ??


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

stevenson said:


> My guess is he may get a little bit darker , but stay a bayish color.
> Mom is a lined back dun , or dunskin since she has the buckskin color, do not see bay in the dam.
> What color is the Sire ? of this foal ? si the sire a bay ? sorrel ? ??


OP said the sire of the foal is a black tobiano stallion. But since the dam has at least one agouti, the foal cannot be black if the mare passed agouti to a black based foal so the foal is most likely a bay (unless she also passed a dilute gene as well which for some reason isn't showing as a newborn)


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## LittleBayMare (Jun 2, 2014)

I'm going to go out on a limb and say brown, not bay, due to the light points that are really obvious in the last photo. Welcome to the BAB club!


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## Havilah (Oct 1, 2014)

So, she is shedding out now, and to basically black on her ears and head. Face is still lighter. Does this mean she's going Brown? NOT bay? Sorry I any pictures of her face since it's she'd out.


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## Havilah (Oct 1, 2014)

LittleBayMare said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and say brown, not bay, due to the light points that are really obvious in the last photo. Welcome to the BAB club!


I'm thinking you might be right.


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## GypsyGirls15 (Nov 19, 2014)

Havilah said:


> So, she is shedding out now, and to basically black on her ears and head. Face is still lighter. Does this mean she's going Brown? NOT bay? Sorry I any pictures of her face since it's she'd out.



Can you get some pictures of her legs - what color are her coronet bands? Here's my Bay girl as she got older:

Before I got her at 6 months: 








After her first shed/trim:








Most recent:









Also a few of some other foals born around the same time...they are black, but have a lighter coat, but it is different from my bay girl:


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## LittleBayMare (Jun 2, 2014)

GypsyGirls15 said:


> Can you get some pictures of her legs - what color are her coronet bands? Here's my Bay girl as she got older:
> 
> Before I got her at 6 months:
> View attachment 663338
> ...


Is it just me or are those meally points on your bay too...?:think: Maybe I'm wrong and they're both bay...or they're both brown. Ugh. These bay/browns can be sneaky ******s. I'm just going to wait for someone more experienced to weigh in.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Havilah said:


> So, she is shedding out now, and to basically black on her ears and head. Face is still lighter. Does this mean she's going Brown? NOT bay? Sorry I any pictures of her face since it's she'd out.


The first shed is almost always the darkest color you will see, usually the adult color is lighter than the first foal shed. As for brown vs bay, watch the muzzle, flank and elbow for a light cinnamon color, sometimes only visible in a winter coat. If you see the lighter soft areas, you have a brown. Like this handsome devilish pirate :wink:


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## Havilah (Oct 1, 2014)

Unfortunately, I can't use feet or legs as an indicator. Lol. All four legs are completely white.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Havilah said:


> Unfortunately, I can't use feet or legs as an indicator. Lol. All four legs are completely white.


Being black based means that the legs/feet would mature to being black over time if it wasn't covered by white. Brown indicators are the soft areas. You will know 100% if you have a bay or a brown when the winter coat grows in. Light cinnamon coloring on the sides of the muzzle (not hidden by the white facial markings) and the flank (also not covered in white) tells you that you have a brown. Bays will be fairly even colored from body color extending through those areas all year round. Many browns are mislabeled as bays because browns can also have the black stockings, black ear tips and red body like bays are identified as, the difference comes down to the cinnamon colored soft spots.
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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Subbing. ....So I can look at all the cute babies ;-;


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

I'm more interested in the mare, she is beautiful!

The baby is adorable too.


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