# Lunging with stiff stifle?



## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Okay, one big thing that you need to be taking into serious consideration in the future is vaccinations and if in the future the 'benefits' out weigh the risks to his health in administering them. Get a titre done each year instead, and a veterinary waiver and health certificate stating why he can't be vaccinated. If he is getting worse every time you vaccinate, it is time to stop, because the next time you may not be so fortunate to still have him, as the reaction may go to full anaphalactic shock and you may lose him. 

Regarding lunging on his stiff hind end, I wouldn't recommend it; what I would do is take him into a large round or square pen and work him off line there, till he warms up and gets those joints flexible, THEN you could get him on a lunge line, and get him focused more. Lunge work is hard on a horse, especially on a horse with joint issues, so be careful when he is 'cold' in his joints. warm him up at freedom first, then get him on a lunge and syrcingle.


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## RoyalsRebel (Sep 24, 2009)

Hi mom2pride, thanks so much for your reply - I didn't realize the novel I wrote til after. haha :S

As for the reaction, it's his first major one. The first set of injections caused a very very minor reaction (a little localized swelling) so the vet said he'd record that and the reaction to the next set (month later) which he never expected to be this outrageous. Believe me, we are not going through this again! The vet believes it was the rabbies vaccine, as that is usually the cause of most problems he said.

As for what's available to us.... no round pens or anything smaller than the very large paddocks or the 200ftX70ft arena which he doesn't just calmly walk and trot around at liberty - he charges to the opposite end and refuses to move until you get to the other end and he charges back to the opposite end. I don't want to have him sour at me for backing him cold (which he was) which is why we started lunging to begin with. I don't believe we'll need to continue with lunging this week as hopefully after the last few days of work he's starting to get a little more freedom in the joint and I can just start him out under saddle and warm him up slow.

Sigh!!


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## huntergirl84 (Aug 30, 2009)

Hi there, have you considered just walking him for a period of time---say a week or 2 of walk only. As you progress, incorporate poles and working up and down hill, as this really strengthens the stifle. After a week or two, incorporate a bit of trot and increase the time you trot gradually (at first no trotting over poles or hills and gradually incorporate this). Finally incorporate canter in the same way. Just go slow and be patient. Perhaps you were just asking too much too quickly after the time off. Give him time to get that stifle strengthened and unstiffened and gain confidence in that joint. While doing this, you may consider giving him bute about an hour or so before you ride to help your horse work through the pain a bit more and having someone (or you) hand walk him for 20 or 30 minutes on days you can't ride, so that you don't loose progress. Lunging is never good for an injured horse---walk only isn't so bad, but at that point, why not just hand walk, which is better?


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## RoyalsRebel (Sep 24, 2009)

Hi Huntergirl, thanks for your response! 

The problem is that his energy level is coming back up and hand walking isn't a viable option - he's a big boy and already a handful as it is most days. He was in peak fitness two weeks ago and I'm trying to avoid as much atrophy of the muscle from lack of work as possible!

He's not injured. That I think is the key thing. He's just stiff. And the only way to get through it is to keep up the light work until the muscles suspending his stifle are pliable again. The problem there is that he's a bit of a weenie about working through any discomfort. The muscle there is very strong - we've put a LOT a LOT a LOT of effort and energy into building him up but 2 weeks of little to no work has set us back and 2 weeks of little to no work with stiff stifles means they're REALLY stiff right now and he's unwilling to work with discomfort.

He's been getting Bute every day and he gets a good turn-out every day for 10 hours as usual.

I'm afraid to go too slow right now because I don't want to lose all our hard work on putting on this muscle which he needs to support the stifles. Did I word my dilemma better this time? *oi vey* It's a hard up hill battle some days!

EDIT: I guess I should say 3 weeks.... it's been 3 weeks thereabouts since the vaccinations were done that he's been off work. He reacted about 3-4 days post-injection.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Can you ground drive him?


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## RoyalsRebel (Sep 24, 2009)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Can you ground drive him?


That would be ideal in my books as it avoids the tight circle as with lunging..... but alas, I like my life.  He's never done it before, and for that matter, neither have I!

I'm curious though, what would you say the benefits of ground driving are? Is it something I should maybe learn about and then teach with my coach? I haven't run across many people in my neck of the woods that favour ground-driving..... but then they're of a certain cut that enjoy breaking a horse fast and training horses to 'round' but strapping their chin to their chests and driving them onto their forehands. *Sigh*


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Unfortunately I don't know anything about ground driving either. I know of it and thought it may be helpful here to avoid tight circles, while still exercising and maintaining control over your horse. 

Search ground driving or even start another topic, I know there are others on here that know about it and could probably point you in the right direction.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

Two things I can think of off the top of my head. If you have trails or fields to ride then beg/borrow/steal a steady horse and pony him. Walk and trot through the fields. The uneven ground and walking and trotting will really unlock those stifles. I have rehabbed quite a few OTTBs with stiff stifles this way. If you can't do this see if your trainer or another experienced rider at your barn can do this for you as it is great for them and without the extra weight of a rider it helps them do more quicker as they only have to balance and carry their own weight. 

The other thing is to hack him yourself. If he is manageable outside a ring then take him for long walks with a little bit of trot work. Take him for a long trail walk and get him really loosened up then take him back in the ring and do some trotting and walking on the lunge line in side reins for another 10-20 minutes. A lot of long interval walking with short intervals of lunging and making him come under himself will really improve his gait. 

If he isn't manageable outside then I suggest getting on him and riding in straight 2-point. Walk him on nice big figure eights and circles and serpentines and do the same at the trot. Not tiring him out just letting him move out and stretch in both directions. Don't overdo the stiff side or he will tire easily and get a little sour but don't avoid that side either. Let me him tell you what he can and can't do. Keep the workouts simple and on the short side and stay off his back and mouth as much as possible until he stretches out and gets a little of his fitness back. Then gradually start asking him to carry more weight on those stifles and then you will be back to where you started. 

Good luck and if you could get us videos of his movement and what you've been doing with him then that would help as well. I would also suggest getting him some massages to help relax and loosen up his hole back end. It can make a world of difference for horses with stiffness problems.


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## RoyalsRebel (Sep 24, 2009)

Thanks NE!!! That was a really awesome reply! I really appreciate your input! If ponying were doable it might be an option but i'd be concerned about him getting very over excited as he doesn't have much close contact with other horses as his owner prefers an individual turnout - he can be very studly and dominant and he has to have rear shoes to hold pads for his stifles! So i think ponying could end up a disaster. Hacking out is definitely an option as that & lunging are all i've done so far!
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## RoyalsRebel (Sep 24, 2009)

I'll get some video of him at liberty in the indoor and on the lunge if i can so you can see. He's tracking right up but is not moving fluidly through the back. I'll focus on hacking this week and take a before and after of his progress... just really worried about losing the muscle! He already looks like he's put on weight and lost a lot of tone in his quarters... enough that he's getting comments about it!
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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

I would definitely start doing long hacks then. If he's relatively fit and not unsound, just stiff, then do a lot of walk and trot up small grades and things, maybe some short canters on level ground if he can do it as well. Stay in 2-point anytime the ground gets rough or you have to go up any kind of incline. Work on really getting to know where your seat is and on really following with the movement so you don't hinder him in any way. This would be a great time to really strengthen your seat, your legs and your core by trying to ride as LIGHT as possible on his back. Also don't try to get him collected at all. As long as he's not trying to grab the bit and run away with you let him motor along and really stretch out with his legs. You want the biggest, free-est movement you can get out of him without him running away with you. And avoid any kind of steep down grades until he loosens up because it is VERY hard on the stifles to go down anything steeper than a gradual and shallow incline.


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## huntergirl84 (Aug 30, 2009)

Hey there, I'd certainly say that if you can do longer hacks, go for it, b/c as you said, with weak stifles, the more work the better. I suppose my point with going slow, was that you don't necessarily need to do lots of trot and canter to work the stifle out OR keep him fit. As you said, it sounds like it's more mental block than a physical one for your horse. So it seems it's more about figuring out a way to unlock your horse mentally, while maintaining his fitness in the meantime.

Thus, If he's well behaved and unbothered at the walk, just do a lot of it. It may be more time consuming b/c you perhaps might have to ride an hour instead of 30 minutes, but I think we get into this mindframe of the horse isn't working unless they're trotting or cantering, but that just isn't true. It's just like people and how they say walking can be just as good if not better excercise than jogging, plus it's lower impact on the joints. Just food for thought. I certainly understand not wanting to loose muscle tone, but be careful not to rush your horse mentally back into work. Not to mention that 2 to 3 weeks off really does result in loss of muscle tone and does take time to work back from physically (you said yourself that he's lost a lot of muscle tone). Injuries and/or time off are never convenient and it is frustrating to see your hard work waste away (believe me, I've dealt with it many times!). Even though your horse isn't lame, he still needs time to regain that muscle he lost WHILE strenthening the stifle. That's why I say low impact work (and perhaps lots of it to maintain/ gain fitness) may be the way to go.

You mentioned he's getting too much energy/ hard to handle. It can be the catch-22 with horses on rest/ still re-gaining fitness. They are wild, yet you can't work the tar out of them b/c they may re-injure/ strain muscles, etc. Have you considered calming supplements or even drugs while you are working him back up/ strengthening the stifle? 

Finally, someone mentioned ground driving. I myself have never done it, but from what I've read, you really need someone with a lot of experience with ground driving to train you, as it's a difficult skill to learn yourself and also can be difficult/ dangerous to train your horse if you yourself are unfamiliar with this method. That said, I think there is a LOT of value to it...it just seems there aren't many people out there who do it.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

RoyalsRebel said:


> Now my concern is that I've got people telling me I shouldn't lunge a horse with stifle issues - that it exacerbates the issue. Is this right? It's something I'd like to maybe know more for future reference, as I think we should see him start to pick himself up a bit this week now that he's back to some regular exercise.
> 
> So what do you all think? Lunging good or bad for a horse with stiff stifles? Any exercises we can do to help warm up the stifle or help keep it fit?


It truly does not matter what we think. Your best resource is your horses vet. Your vet has seen the horse and knows the injury/situation first hand.


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## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

As for not eating-- what kind of feed is he on, and how long has he been on the regular bute? If, for instance, he's eating sweet feed, been on bute every day for more than a month, and he's got ulcers.... I can totally understand why he won't eat all of his feed. 

What is he on for the ulcers? Gastrogard? Would the owner consider switching to a natural ulcer treatment that would be easier on the stomach and the pocketbook? If so, PM me, I can give you info on a product I've used/seen used with great success. If the horse won't eat the grain.... have you considered switching to maybe a senior feed that would be easy on the stomach? Or even reducing the grain and adding mineral/salt access? 


As for lunging-- If you are going to lunge I'd lunge at the end of the longest line you have, and definitely walk with the horse. Walk down the long side of the arena with him to give him extra room to stretch out and be straight. That way you don't have a horse playing games with you while free lunging and you've still got control, plus he's not putting as much stress on himself as with regular lunging. 


Ground driving is actually not as hard as you'd think, all you really need is a surcingle or western saddle, a bridle, and two lunge lines of equal weight. I'm not going to tell you how to do it via a forum, but definitely watch some videos on it, it is tricky to keep the lines positioned at first, but its easy and you don't have to be right behind the horse the whole time.


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## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

huntergirl84 said:


> Finally, someone mentioned ground driving. I myself have never done it, but from what I've read, you really need someone with a lot of experience with ground driving to train you, as it's a difficult skill to learn yourself and also can be difficult/ dangerous to train your horse if you yourself are unfamiliar with this method. That said, I think there is a LOT of value to it...it just seems there aren't many people out there who do it.



Eh, it really isn't that hard. Basically each long line is exactly what it is.... one really long rein. You ask all of the same things from the ground as you do in the saddle. You can walk, trot, canter, back, reverse, turn on the haunches, etc etc etc. 

It does, however, require the same soft hands (if not softer) as in the saddle. Since the line is longer, it loses a little of the feel, so you have to be able to trust your hands to work independently and correctly as they would undersaddle. 

You also need a horse that responds to verbal cues of some sort from the ground. It is possible to use a lunge or driving whip, but it is very difficult when you are just starting out.


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## RoyalsRebel (Sep 24, 2009)

Oh we had a great day/night today! He's perked up, ate all his feed morning and night and was free and loose in a quick free lunge the evening! SO RELIEVED! We syringed his ulcer medication for the past few days which is a natural formula through the vet not the Gastroguard or equivalent. Since Sunday he's been on reduced dose of bute which the vet said might be easier on his stomach and we'll be weening him off this week since his eating has picked up and he's not as hitchy as he was.
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## RoyalsRebel (Sep 24, 2009)

As for feed we've been giving him the vet's prescribed diet the same as he's been getting since we found he had ulcers. No sweet feed. I don't ever feed him but i believe its a mix of hifat hifibre, roughage chunks, a little beet pulp, and equalizer with a handful of sweet feed to give it some flavour. And it gets soaked really well. I think the ulcer meds are a bit bitter so when he's not really really hungry it puts him off. The vet suggested we try some apple sauce to cut th bitterness.
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## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

Hey I like the sound of that! Is the ulcer thing called Miracle Clay?


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## RoyalsRebel (Sep 24, 2009)

Hm i'm really not sure what it is called but it definitely works. You migh be right! It's more than half the price of the pharmaceutical which are all full of crap and heavy metals. He's done really well with it but it is unfortunately bit bitter. After a show day if he's tired and not too into his feed i often toss in a couple of mints and soak it to a soupy mash and he loves it! But mints add too much sugar so i wouldn't do it regularly!
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## RoyalsRebel (Sep 24, 2009)

Thanks so much for all your help, but also your support guys. Keenya's starting to feel like his old self again.... phew! We've been hacking all week - working with the gradual slopes and uneven ground and he's now lost most of the hitchiness in the stifle and is going for 45 minutes without tiring. I'm going to start back into some pole work tonight and hoping to get back into our routine next week to prep for his first show of the season June 5th! *relieved!!*


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