# Wild horses - unicorns or pests?



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Saw this thread:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-forum-announcements/congress-vs-unicorns-767337/

Trying to read more about it, I found:



> "Trump’s budget proposes an 11 percent cut to the BLM’s $1.1 billion budget and a reduction of 29 jobs from the Wild Horse and Burro management program. The full House Committee on Appropriations will vote on the 2018 Interior Appropriations bill on Tuesday. This bill reduces money for wild horses and burro birth control, and would allow the BLM to sell captured wild horses and burros to slaughterhouses that kill them for meat.
> 
> According to The Humane Society, the relevant budget provision “would allow the BLM to kill captured wild horses or sell them without restriction ? a change that would enable buyers to purchase wild horses on the cheap and haul them to Canada or Mexico for slaughter.”"
> 
> https://returntofreedom.org/2017/07...ng-together-to-legalize-wild-horse-slaughter/


Personally, I support the slaughter of wild horses.

I own this BLM mustang, and he's a great little horse:








​
I own one. I can't afford to own thousands. And apart from slaughter, I don't see any solution. Mine is not a unicorn. Left in the wild, he'd either starve or eat food the REAL wild animals need.



> "Roughly 73,000 wild horses and burros, including almost 9,000 on 2.5 million acres in California, currently roam public lands, with the population increasing up to 20 percent each year, BLM numbers show.
> 
> The national population stood at 25,000 in 1971, and the number that can live harmoniously with livestock and other wildlife on public lands today is just 27,000, the bureau said. Just 2,000 or so horses and burros are adopted each year, according to the BLM, which is part of the Interior Department...
> 
> ...





> "In 2012, the number of horses and burros at holding facilities (47,000) surpassed the estimated number on the range (40,000) for the first time since President Richard Nixon signed the Free-Roaming Horses and Burros Act of 1971."
> 
> BLM holding facilities being inundated with wild horses;


And in case anyone thinks this is just something that has popped up under the new administration, this is from *September 2016*:



> "The Bureau of Land Management’s National Wild Horse and Burro Advisory Board voted to recommend euthanasia of all unadopted wild horses and burros now in government holding facilities throughout the United States. In response, Humane Society of the United States Senior Vice President of Programs & Innovations Holly Hazard, said:
> 
> “The decision of the BLM advisory board to recommend the destruction of the 45,000 wild horses currently in holding facilities is a complete abdication of responsibility for their care. The agency would not be in this situation but for their long-term mis-management. Alternatives to this proposal have been ignored for over 20 years. The HSUS stands ready to implement these alternatives at any time.”
> 
> ...


Would sterilization work? Certainly not for the tens of thousands already being held. And it doesn't sound all that plausible to me for the horses in the wild. I wouldn't have any big problem with TRYING it, but it won't do anything about the horses being held and held and held...

PS - Didn't know which forum this would belong in. Please move it to a more appropriate one if it is in the wrong spot.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

As much as I dislike horse slaughter... the wild horse problem is a HUGE problem. We can't just allow them to run free unchecked and destroy the land for the rest of the animals and environment. They don't have much in the way of predators... maybe some bears or cougars would go after a horse, but I don't think they are favored prey and they have much easier targets.

I agree. I can't think of a way to solve the problem of the incredible number of horses and burros in the holding pens, aside from slaughter. At least if they are put up for sale for cheap, this will encourage those who don't want them to go to slaughter to rescue as many as they can, rather than sitting back and pointing fingers at the BLM.

Honestly, life in a holding pen isn't much of a life at all.

Is the West's Wild Horse Crisis So Bad Only Euthanasia Can Fix It?
^A very good article on the wild horse problem and Ben Masters. If anybody loves our mustangs, Ben Masters does. But even he knows that this is a serious problem that needs attention and action, ASAP.

Heck, we've got perfectly good domestic horses, some of them already trained, heading to slaughter for no other reason than there is no home for them. What hope do 46,000 wild horses have, when so many people can't handle or don't want the domestic ones?

It is extremely sad. But I just don't see any other way. Allowing the number in the holding pens to continue to grow is not going to end well for these animals.

ETA: If I can get the funds together sometime over the next year... maybe it's about time for me to get my mustang project I've been wanting to do for years. I regularly go looking for trained mustangs, and they are hard to find. Also seems to be some demand for them, just nobody wants to train one from scratch.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'd love to try training one from scratch, but I'd need to be picky about which one. Don't know the rules on adopting. But in truth, if I was going to get another horse, it would be an Arabian. Well, 90% likely. 10% mustang. Arabians are special to me, even if 1.5 of my 3 horses are mustang.

I'd be thrilled if 40,000+ people wanted to adopt a mustang. But there aren't anywhere close to that number.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Part of the problem with the BLM policies is that they limit TIP licenses and, although the 100 day challenges (something I'd love to do, but don't have the facilities to satisfy BLM requirements) bring in some really nice $ for the horses that go through the program, again, the quantity is limited. Instead, they ship thousands to holding facilities where they live and die in cramped quarters. 

I don't like the idea of slaughtering so many of these horses, but I have to agree that it is a viable solution. I would prefer, however, to see them donated as slaughter animals to feed some of the other rescue animals around the country where bear, wolves, big cats, etc. are being held. Even selling them to zoos for game meat, or even to dog food companies would be better than letting them go to the slaughterhouses in Canada and Mexico. Before all the equine slaughterhouses in the States closed, we used to buy frozen lbs of horse meat to feed to our breeding bitches. Good, inexpensive protein.

It is possible to also implement equine sterilization in the wild. With the problem at the point it is at now, though, both sterilization and slaughter are almost inevitable. One would hope, in selecting animals for slaughter, that they would at least have someone with experience do the selecting, eliminating the aged, infirmed, or badly conformed before the young and healthy. 

What scares me the most about this is that it will also impact the non-mustang feral herds on Federal and State lands - those not under BLM protection.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

TIP licenses are limited as the result of lawsuits by mustangs-should-be-free groups.

Sterilization has been used, and stopped by the same groups. It is of limited value, though. So far, it seems impossible to get to enough mares. And the pro-feral horse groups misrepresent sterilization as cruel and get it stopped. This link is an example of how it was presented. "Egregious mutilation." Good grief. https://tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2016/04/19/act-now-ask-osu-to-reject-wild-mare-sterilization/

There is more money favoring the horses than other wildlife, though the BLM ends up in court answering to those groups, too, because they object to the obvious favor given to horses. (I wish the groups would sue each other and quit wasting BLM resources in courtrooms!)

I don't always agree with the BLM folks I've dealt with, and we've even had some heated moments, but I respect their goals and POV, and pity the position they are in. They can't do nothin' right. Not for everyone. 

There are no longer herds of pure mustang blood. That goofy Sussman chica up in Lantry, SD might have started with some that came real close, but messed that up by becoming a hoarder.

BTW: I really like seeing wild horses. But I also like seeing mountain plovers, horned toads, antelope, mule deer, bluebirds, dragon flies... you get the idea. Just because I have horses and wouldn't have a pet bird for anything or a reptile, either, doesn't mean I don't want the environment to be good for all.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

@bsms
Adoption is tricky and, IMO, kind of a hassle. There is quite a bit of red tape and facility requirements.

My plan is to buy a sale authority mustang. This is the same as buying a horse from another person (except you are buying from BLM), you get a bill of sale, and the horse is yours. No red tape, no waiting a year for the title on the horse. I believe the sale authority price averages $125. These are last chance horses, as they failed to be adopted. Many of them are actually really nice horses. I've heard when most people adopt mustangs, they go for flashy color over good conformation. I try to stay away from the online adoption gallery, as I always find multiples I would love to take.

My "maybe someday" plan is to do one mustang a year, give him a really good foundation. English & western, trail riding, little bit of jumping grid work and dressage, ground driving in harness up to pulling tires (that is a horse started for driving), good for farrier, vet, on the ground, and in the trailer. Then after he's had that training, sell him on to a good home and get the next one.

Mustangs are a blast to train. They are SO smart. My mustang cross picks things up so fast, it's incredible. If you can figure out how to get that stubborn intelligence working for you rather than against you, the horse will go anywhere for you. 

As usual, the only thing standing in the way of my plans is $$$$ (startup cost). I'm going to figure out a way to do it eventually though. I have always been really good with the 'problem' horses-spooky, afraid, shy, aggressive, pushy, spoiled, etc. It really is my strong suit, and I'd love to use that to help the mustangs. They'd have to at least pay for themselves though in the long run.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

boots said:


> TIP licenses are limited as the result of lawsuits by mustangs-should-be-free groups.


I should have figured that.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Every time I discuss wild horse slaughter I think of Dreams at a slaughterhouse and it makes me physically sick. I love wild horses. They may not be indigenous to North America but they've been over here for so many thousands of years they might as well be. They are truly an American icon. 

However ... 

Even my bleeding heart realizes that there is a major problem out there. Being sent to a slaughterhouse, while in my opinion distasteful and inhumane (the treatment they receive en route is horrid) is still better than starving to death. In this type of situation one has to pick the lesser of two evils. Perhaps we can send the excess to slaughter until we reduce numbers to a viable population, then stop slaughtering and use sterilization instead? Once numbers are manageable it should be much easier to keep them that way. 

-- Kai


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm skeptical sterilization would work, but I'd be willing to see it tested. I'd like to see a special government slaughter plant set up, in the USA, under strict scrutiny - and it WOULD get that - and slaughter the excess here.

They cannot be released. Not very many want them. Next to Arabians, I like mustangs best. But there just isn't the market for them.

And given how fast they can reproduce in the absence of natural predators...


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

There's just too many... I don't like the thought of the slaughtering, but I have no better solution. Let's be honest - the U.S. is overloaded with horses, wild AND domestic.

BUT. If the Feds would knock off the b.s. red tape and bazillion nanny requirements to adopt a BLM horse, the problem might partially resolve itself. 

We looked into getting one long before we started out with Nope and Supes (Nope MAY have been a Mustang-cross, hard to tell and Supes is just a retired roping horse) and holy mother of God.

You can adopt a human child with less hassle and b.s.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Same probs over here. I own a brumby, and he's fantastic. Have also had & ridden & known of other good ones too. Having no predators over here aside from humans, there is little genetic pressure tho and there are very many who are innately terribly conformed who are/would be unsound for any 'work'. There are also very many good horses, feral & domestic who are in need of homes, or in bad homes. If they stop slaughtering brumbies, ex racers, other 'unwanted' ones, what would happen with them? A lifetime in crowded 'holding pens', without freedom, without health & hoof care, without training... Nope, as a horse lover, I AM a supporter of (responsible) horse slaughter too.

Horses are rounded up/culled because there are too many for the environment to support - they breed up in 'good seasons' & then 'wreck the joint' & starve to death in 'hard' seasons. Therefore it is not a reasonable argument to say they should be just left alone & not captured.

The horses that are caught are generally not kept for long in holding pens but are trucked to abattoirs. That's rather nasty for the poor beasts, not least because it generally entails very long truck rides - there are no longer any meat processing plants up north(for human consumption or otherwise) so all beasts from those regions need to be shipped south to be killed & butchered... then meat for pets or humans needs to be shipped up north again - stupid! So I reckon there could be far better, more humane ways of dealing with them - I would be very supportive of mobile abattoirs for eg. Deading them is one thing, but causing them massive suffering in the process is not good enough.

Even those horses who are 'saved' often go to 'rescue' holding pens/paddocks long term, and lack good training/care. Rescuers typically don't have the funds to employ trainers, vets, hoof care practitioners as needed. I know many people who have taken on young horses who have been at 'brumby rescue' places for years and have never had a foot picked up, never had teeth done, are as wormy as... And as with domestic horses, many eventually find themselves in homes with ignorant, uncaring or even cruel owners. Is all that really more humane than deading them??


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

As an aside, I don't get the emotional aversion to horsemeat for human consumption either. Just because people like to own horses as pets, or as 'sports equipment', why does that mean to say that meat eaters shouldn't even consider eating them?? People also have cows, sheep, goats, bunnies, chickens as pets too, but have no problem with the concept of them generally being 'livestock'... 

Having just bought a farm, I'm excited about the prospect of becoming largely self sufficient in the food department. My kids have asked if we can have goats & sheep. I've told them yes, but we will also eat them. If you're going to eat meat, I think it's important to be realistic about it... And on a humane front, while I'm not at all looking forward to having cute little kids & lambs & then killing them, I'll be able to rest assured they had a good life & died without fear or suffering, which is something I know is unlikely of the meat I buy from the butchers - even with Temple Grandin principles at work, it's not likely to be a nice experience, rounded up, shipped, commercial abattoir... even if they're not 'feed lot' beasts & had a nice life beforehand.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

I like to think of myself as a reasonable and realistic person, and it would be unreasonable and unrealistic to think that wild horses can continue to be wild and free and happy for long if their populatioin isn't checked. I think a quick and humane death would be much better than slowly starving to death or dying from diseases caused by overpopulation.

That being said - I don't even want to imagine the nightmarish horror thoses horses experience when they're rounded up, crowded into big trucks, and brought to a slaughter facility where then can see and smell blood and see the other horses being slaughtered and they know what's coming for them next. 

I have spent a lot of time in slaughterhouses over the years and seen how much fear the animals have before they're killed. 

It would be much more humane to just simultaneously shoot them out in the wild when they don't know what's coming, and then after they are already dead and when no other horses can see it happening, quickly gut them and send them for processing.

Death, without fear and pain, is not a bad thing. We all die.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

I could never eat a horse. I don't knock people who can or do or have, but I personally couldn't do it. I'd eat a dog before I'd eat a horse. 

-- Kai


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Kaifyre said:


> Every time I discuss wild horse slaughter I think of Dreams at a slaughterhouse and it makes me physically sick. I love wild horses. They may not be indigenous to North America but they've been over here for so many thousands of years they might as well be. They are truly an American icon.
> 
> However ...
> 
> ...


They've only been here since the 17th century, not thousands of years. 

Of course horses WERE indigenous to the Americas, once. In fact at one time there were many species of Equus here. But the world changes.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Whoops, that's what happens when I don't proofread. Hundreds, not thousands. *facepalm*

-- Kai


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## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

The problem is the same as you get with grey squirrels in the UK or many other invasive non-native species. Most people have little to no ecological education and awareness; heck schools in most countries do a very poor job of even teaching people the basic plant, tree and animal species once you leave those species domesticated for human use. As a result there's a massive wall of ignorance coupled to people who've grown up on Lionking and Spirit type films. 

So they've got all the heart for it but no real understanding. As a result they are easily led and can only see one side of the argument and the idea that killing or sterilizing might be the best option is horrific to them. They don't see the damage caused; can't see the poor body condition and have a general belief that, if left alone, nature will sort itself out. Whilst this latter point is broadly true, when it comes ot non-native species (esp those in a system where there's no natural counterbalance and where the environment is already under pressure) it generally balances itself out by removing several other species to make "room" as they are out-competed. 

Of course horses in the USA also have a huge western film industry that has bred into people the idea that they are normal in that environment; plus a slight mythological link to native Americans/Indians as well to contend with in the public eye.


Education is the only way forward, but good luck getting serious ecology and natural studies into the general education systems. It tends to appear at pre-school; kicks around a little with things like photosynthesis at the "serious" midschool levels and then mostly vanishes unless you optionally choose to take it. The rest of education is then typically all human focused.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^One of the attractive things that made me choose the primary school I did for my kids was emphasis on environmental education & consideration. I too think that's SO important. After all, last time I looked, we only had one Earth.

Hey, I've got it - we just need to introduce more predators that will eat horses. I mean, Australia introduced the Cane Toad to eat Cane Beetles... that was a good idea wasn't it??


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## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

The sad thing is that most predator prey relationships don't work with predators controlling prey populations; if anything the reverse is actually more true in most relationships. The predators adjust behaviour so that prey can't just hang out wherever they want at all times; they adjust feeding habits and remove injured/weak/daft/young from the herds. However in general the predators have less impact on the actual overall population; indeed most predator prey relationships develop at a rough point of balance since f the predator destroys its prey its got nothing left to live on. 

Humans are one of the few species that trumps this rule and will hunt a species to extinction. 

The other aspect is that invasive species aren't in balance, so when they are predatory species they continue to hunt because there's no balance check from the prey to survive the predator.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Yeah what youre saying about balance reminded me of a doc on yellowstone np when they reintroduced wolves.

When they decided to introduce cane toads to eat the beetles, nobody thought about the small matter of beetles being able to fly & climb - gotta love out superior intelligence! 

So beetles remained & toads have become one of the biggest environmental menaces of the north - they have now migrated from the east coast to well into the Kimberley in western aust now. You dont see any native frogs or geckos any more up there & most native carnivores are very threatened if not virtually extinct because of them - theyre toxic enough that they can kill a croc or big goanna if they eat one!


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

loosie said:


> Yeah what youre saying about balance reminded me of a doc on yellowstone np when they reintroduced wolves.
> 
> When they decided to introduce cane toads to eat the beetles, nobody thought about the small matter of beetles being able to fly & climb - gotta love out superior intelligence!
> 
> So beetles remained & toads have become one of the biggest environmental menaces of the north - they have now migrated from the east coast to well into the Kimberley in western aust now. You dont see any native frogs or geckos any more up there & most native carnivores are very threatened if not virtually extinct because of them - theyre toxic enough that they can kill a croc or big goanna if they eat one!


i


Just want to say I love wolves but cane toads are so disgusting. We used to play cane toad golf and I think up here we used to have nights where people would organise catching them and freezing them


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

The BLM started a program of permanent sterilization for horses and stopped as a result of the expense of combating lawsuits.

Some believed permanent sterilization was inhumane, but I say not as inhumane as living out life in a holding pen.

I would like to see Ben Masters suggestion happen which is to permanently sterilize the herds in captivity making them non-reproductive and then assign an area where they could live out their lives in the wild. Save $30 million a year and make the horses and everybody happy.

And with the remaining herds rounded up periodically with permanent sterilization to the degree that would eventually reduce the herd to the needed size.

Pretty easy to see how the slaughter of the buffalo took place.

Maybe we need a sterilization program for people too.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I have no idea where we would find room for 40,000+ horses on top of what is already out there.

Shooting them in the wild might be OK with professional hunters. But even good, responsible hunters can shoot a 150 lb deer with a 30-06 and then need to track it down by the blood trail. As for average hunters...I used to work for the US Forest Service. We wore orange in hunting season, made lots of noise - and I was shot at many times. I have watched people who had stopped on I-80, and were standing on the Interstate shooting away at deer 1/2 mile or more in the distance!

Sterilization was attacked by animal rights activists, and I honestly doubt it is the way to go anyways. I'd like to see it tried somewhere, but the politics are likely to prevent that.

If you use professional hunters, the carcasses will be a long way from paved roads. You can't shoot & kill, then come in and clean the carcasses and haul them away for consumption. I don't think this particular area has wild horses, but it shows some of the problems with the idea of using hunters and processing meat on site:








​ 
It might work to use professional hunters and leave the meat. SOMEONE out there will get it. Someones with four legs. Or more. Or wings.

It is a very tough question at this stage, and I blame the animal rights activists for creating an almost insurmountable problem. They want what they see in movies. That isn't life. One commentator recently wrote that the problem we had now isn't that people don't know how to think, but that they prefer to feel instead of think. 

I also get very tired of the argument that the BLM and USFS are tools of greedy ranchers!

A friend used to use the area in the picture to move sheep thru. Typically took 4 days. About 20 years ago, it was stopped for fear his sheep would infect the wild sheep (bighorns). No one worried about how it would affect him. And he ended up buying a semi to truck the sheep, so long term it may have helped. And a few years ago, the bighorns mostly died off in that area from disease, leading my friend to comment, "At least no one can blame me!"

But anyone familiar with grazing issues in the west knows the feds can cut your allotment - that you paid for - at any time and in any amount. Finding federal land to graze on has become very hard. The idea that a handful of rural ranchers carry more weight that 500,000 people watching PBS in the city just doesn't cut it.

They wanted Utopia for the wild horses and are creating hell instead. As the proverb says, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Kaifyre said:


> Whoops, that's what happens when I don't proofread. Hundreds, not thousands. *facepalm*
> 
> -- Kai


Well, you could have said millions or hundreds and been right . . .


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Well, this ties back to the Overreaction to Cows in Snow thread I stumbled over the other night here.

I threw out there that a local judge hosts a marathon every year, called the Mowdy Mustang Marathon. The proceeds go to help raise awareness of the BLM horses, etc. He has a large herd of BLM Mustangs on his ranch in Coalgate, Oklahoma.

Last year, or I might have been mistaken and it was two years ago, the Feds had to run perimeter security around the ranch and my husband, then still in law enforcement, was asked to come out and assist with security... because PETA had recently released some horses somewhere up north, and the horses had promptly panicked and ran right out into a freeway and had caused several accidents, many were killed, many more had to be euthanized due to their injuries, etc. The same group had been caught trying to tear out the Mowdy ranch fences the same week as the races were being held and it was feared they'd show up and try to 'liberate' the horses while the larger group of runners and local news stations were present.

As you said, BSMS... they want the romanticized Hollywood dream of the spirited American horse, running free and magnificent. 

That's not how it works in reality and they've done much more harm than good. There's the cumulative effect of not enough predators left to keep the prey in check, of poor genetics being passed on due to the weak not being picked off by said predators, etc. but there's also the lack of understanding when it comes to trying to set free those who have FOUND homes on larger ranches, like the Mowdy ranch. They don't follow logic through (So we set them 'free' where then do they go in SE Oklahoma where all land is privately owned and fenced in? Where do they find water, since ponds and creeks are fenced off and for the use of landowner livestock? What about cars and trucks and tractors and ranchers spraying brush killer that can make horses sick if they're in the area and the ranchers didn't know it, because... there shouldn't be any horses over there/out here, etc?

Their lack of understanding and forethought, but also situational awareness is atrocious and the horses are suffering by extension, because of it.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

I'm sorry but I don't see how sterilization is inhumane? Run all the male horses through a chute, give them a quick sedative, and cut their jinglies off. We do it to our geldings. I fail to see how cutting off a horse's nuts is more inhumane than letting them starve to death. And if gelding is such a horrible procedure, why hasn't it been banned?

-- Kai


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## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

Kaifyre you're dealing with the animal rights groups who believe that if animals are just left alone nature will sort everything out. Thing is whilst that's true for native species in a balanced ecosystem without human use it tends to fall apart when dealing with non-native species. Thing is those people don't understand that; most have a very childish to romantic concept of ecological studies and neither have time nor encouragement to learn it (those within those rights groups at the top end - ergo the leaders - only retain control by ignorance of those below them). 


bsms - the whole being shot at by people in USA always strikes me as scary. I'm UK side so chances are if you're being shot at whoever is shooting you is being deliberate about it. I've often heard that orange camo came around because it was "safer to be a deer than a person" in the opening days of the deer shooting season. Kind of scary to hear that its not that much of an exaggeration!


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

BSMS - Getting shot at by an _average _hunter? I'd say more like by a moron that thinks he's a hunter.

We have those types that show up here once a year, out of Dallas, Plano, McKinney, Tx. They THINK they're hunters but love to take 'sound shots'... And for those that aren't familiar with the term, that means shoot at the source of movement, without seeing what they're shooting at.

Overread - So far, we've not had anyone die by gunshot but a land owner did get shot at one year by someone hunting on adjoining property...

He commenced to handing out a country A** WHUPPIN on the guy that did it too. 

Moral of the story is, you may not die from an accidental gunshot wound when hunters are in the area, but you may get your butt handed to you for being a dummy and shooting at sound.


And yes, Kai... there's no talking sense to these people. They go on emotion alone and have no ability to stand back and think rationally or scientifically. ALL TEH THINGS MUST BE FREE... 

I mean... that's the entire premise of the animated film, Madagascar. LOL


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

My comments were not about chemical sterilization but rather surgical sterilization. The chemical sterilization was doomed before it was ever attempted.

I was recieving news updates from a group in the past and finally unsubscribed. When they filed the lawsuit for the BLM to stop the surgical sterilization the BLM said then we will slaughter them. The group said you can't haha it's against the law. Guess what, it may not be long and it was the wild horse advocates that are to blame for this happening.

The hope is, my hope at least, that if andi when the bill passes into law, the BLM will say to the groups, we are going to do surgical sterilization now. At the first filing of the first lawsuit the slaughter will begin. Now shut up and go home.

As far as finding land for 40-50,000 reproducing wild horses, I agree that it can't be done. But for sterile non-reproducing herds, I doubt that has been seriously looked at even.

Ben Masters thinks it is an option and I'm sure he knows more about availability than I or likely anyone else on the forum. And the thing is, as soon as the herds were placed, their numbers would begin decreasing year after year. 

Ben Masters thinks it is a viable solution and I support him in that effort and direction.

As far as his vote to allow slaughter, it was the only option to remove the radical groups from the process of a viable solution. If the bill goes through, I'm certain Masters will be pushing hard for the BLM to adopt other solutions that will now be available without interference from expensive lawsuits.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Also, I've been digging around our judge friend's ranch website for the Mustang Marathon...

LOL at the disclaimer on the right (Warning... there are a few naughty words)

http://www.mowdyranch.com/marathon.html

I DID NOT know he does tours of the ranch. I may have to hit him up at lunch one day and ask if he'd let us ride our own horses on some of it... (rather than the UTV tour) with him and his own horse riding along with us to give us the tour, of course.

SPEAKING OF ACTIVISTS!!!!

There are always several OH THE PRETTY PONY type runners that show up. The mustangs on his ranch are behind a rather sizable fence (the course runs along a different piece of land the horses are kept adjacent to) and most want very little to do with humans, but they are curious. Last summer my husband and a friend of ours that was there handling the 'smoke wagon' bbq noticed this one lady trying to climb the fence while this one mare, known to be aggressive toward most people, watched with her ears laid back and nefarious intent on her face...

They had to drag the woman off the fence for her own safety: But I just want to pet the horses!

Lady! They will EAT YOU FOR LUNCH.

Activists don't get that. These aren't beaten down plow horses and carnival ponies. They are FERAL HORSES and they do NOT like people for the most part.


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## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

Most people understand horses as domestic; the idea that they are wild and not friendly is alien to them because every media interaction from child to adult reinforces the idea of horses being friendly; plus if they've been at a stable or around most paddocked domestic stock the horses likely were at least tolerant if not friendly. 

It's actually a huge mental leap for them to fully appreciate "wild" nature.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Last year, or I might have been mistaken and it was two years ago, the Feds had to run perimeter security around the ranch and my husband, then still in law enforcement, was asked to come out and assist with security... because PETA had recently released some horses somewhere up north, and the horses had promptly panicked and ran right out into a freeway and had caused several accidents, many were killed, many more had to be euthanized due to their injuries, etc. The same group had been caught trying to tear out the Mowdy ranch fences the same week as the races were being held and it was feared they'd show up and try to 'liberate' the horses while the larger group of runners and local news stations were present.


Dear God... I'd be getting LGD dogs. Try messing with someone's fence when a 120lb dog is coming at you snarling and barking for messing with HIS property and HIS stock. Bunch of numbskulls.


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## Mewlie (Apr 14, 2017)

I used to abhor the slaughter of horses and spoke out vehemently against it. I still find the slaughter of horses disturbing but I now see it in a non-romanticized light. I think it is one of the few, especially easy, solutions left to deal with the wild horse population. In a perfect world, the horses would be treated with respect and have a comfortable trip to the slaughterhouse but I know that even if you try to apply stricter rules to the process, there's really no way to effectively reinforce it. I would personally be more comfortable with humane euthanasia but from a business standpoint that's just chucking money and resources out the window when you could make some profit off of it.

I'm still a bleeding heart when it comes to roundups and the fracturing of family bands but I will support the slaughter of wild horses if it means a more controlled and healthier population. I just don't want to see the 'wild horse' completely removed from the environment; finding the balance in the ecosystem for it should be the end goal, I think.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Mewlie said:


> I used to abhor the slaughter of horses and spoke out vehemently against it. I still find the slaughter of horses disturbing but I now see it in a non-romanticized light. I think it is one of the few, especially easy, solutions left to deal with the wild horse population. In a perfect world, the horses would be treated with respect and have a comfortable trip to the slaughterhouse but I know that even if you try to apply stricter rules to the process, there's really no way to effectively reinforce it. I would personally be more comfortable with humane euthanasia but from a business standpoint that's just chucking money and resources out the window when you could make some profit off of it.
> 
> I'm still a bleeding heart when it comes to roundups and the fracturing of family bands but I will support the slaughter of wild horses if it means a more controlled and healthier population. I just don't want to see the 'wild horse' completely removed from the environment; finding the balance in the ecosystem for it should be the end goal, I think.


Well said, and I think that sums up everything the rest of us want, or are trying, to say and how we feel.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Kaifyre said:


> I'm sorry but I don't see how sterilization is inhumane? Run all the male horses through a chute, give them a quick sedative, and cut their jinglies off. We do it to our geldings. I fail to see how cutting off a horse's nuts is more inhumane than letting them starve to death. And if gelding is such a horrible procedure, why hasn't it been banned?
> 
> -- Kai


In addition to lawsuits against the BLM that have stopped sterilization:

It is truly impossible to capture all the male horses. And if some are left intact, as they should be to continue even a reasonable number of feral horses, they will breed every available female. They will breed until they are sick, weak, and literally can't go on. Poor things can't help themselves.

Sterilization of what mares that could be found in over populated areas was somewhat successful. I have three friends that worked on crews. Still, although lots of resources were thrown at that project, the numbers grew beyond the carrying capacity of the ranges. And, the mere act of capturing, containing, and doing tubal ligations or administering chemical birth control to mares was alleged to be cruel by some groups, contested in court, and stopped largely due to public pressure.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

bsms said:


> I have no idea where we would find room for 40,000+ horses on top of what is already out there.


Wait! What - 40,000+ horses where?? In holding pens?? THAT should be criminal! Makes me sick & angry for the poor horses! I can hardly hold my tongue from bad language at that! And they are LEFT there, long term?? As a horse lover, I say shoot the poor things, put them out of their misery! & perhaps shoot the PETA people who caused them to be left there, to put _them_ out of future horse's misery!



> Shooting them in the wild might be OK with professional hunters. ...
> If you use professional hunters, the carcasses will be a long way from paved roads. You can't shoot & kill, then come in and clean the carcasses and haul them away for consumption.


Yeah, they tried aerial culling in the mountains over here, where it was too hard to round up/trap. But targetting running horses in rough country from a chopper... wasn't the most humane. Many horses were injured in the chase, many shot badly & died slowly in pain. Foals were left to starve beside dead mothers... Don't know the best answer to that one, but it seems that following up after the initial shoot to ensure all horses were dead would be one easy way to greatly reduce the potential suffering.

It is not viable over here either for them to be 'hunted' for their meat. Not to mention the laws surrounding butchering here now - mobile butchers have even been banned as 'unsafe' - so for eg. a neighbour with an organic, free range farm now has to put her previously happy, unstressed piggies on a truck to go to the nearest(about 1.5hrs away) abattoir for them to be butchered in terror!



> It is a very tough question at this stage, and I blame the animal rights activists for creating an almost insurmountable problem.


Fanatics in any walk of life... unfortunately have a knack of taking things to such extremes & effectively getting in the way of what they are fighting for! They spoil their own causes, which are often incredibly valid. Then you end up with the 'hippies' on one side & the '********' on the other, saying 'lets not listen to anything they say because we told you all they were just ridiculous! And in the 'bigger picture', the '********' are the money spinners, so what they say generally goes, and you lose any important progress the 'hippies' could have made if they'd only remained rational & balanced.

I've got it! Give PETA people the choice between sterilisation & life in a crowded jail cell... There are a few dog & horse 'rescuers' I know of that I'd just love to give a taste of their own 'rescue' to as well...


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> noticed this one lady trying to climb the fence while this one mare, known to be aggressive toward most people, watched with her ears laid back and nefarious intent on her face...


Now that's just wrong! That she was pulled off the fence that is. They could have even destroyed her chances at earning a Darwin Award!


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

@loosie yes, that number just in holding pens (of course not all in the same holding pen, but multiple around the USA). many more out on the range. It is a serious problem. But you know what, if even half the people that opposed destroying these wild horses would adopt just 1, there would be none needing homes.

There are wild ponies on Chincoteague, but I have never heard of any overpopulation problems there. They do a yearly round up and sale of the ponies.

Chincoteague Poines

ETA: Apparently that website can't spell "ponies" lol.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

From USA Today:



> After debating the merits and flaws in plans to adopt or find ways to limit the population of an estimated 67,000 wild horses through contraceptive darting, the House Appropriations Committee voted to remove language from the Interior Department’s budget that would have prohibited “the destruction of healthy, unadopted wild horses and burros in the care of” the Bureau of Land Management or its contractors. It passed by voice vote.
> 
> The action follows a close roll call vote last week by the same committee to end the prohibition on the U.S. Department of Agriculture inspection of horse meat...
> 
> ...


Didn't think they would have the nerve. Don't know how far it will go. This is just at the committee level.

Notice the numbers are all over the map when discussing populations. When I was a biology student in the...gulp...70s...one of my professors said he once was hired to determine the population of a certain species. He took a look and gave them an estimate. They told him they needed to know with a 95% confidence level. He told them in writing that the number would be meaningless.

They insisted, and agreed to pay him. So he did the work. IIRC, the number was something like "between 10 and 600 per sq mile". IOW, worthless. The people were upset, but he pointed out he told them in writing that what they wanted wasn't possible.

In the early 80s, I did vegetation surveys for Utah. The goal was to determine what hunting levels would be allowed. We surveyed vegetation because if the foods deer liked to eat were increasing, then we had too few deer. If they were decreasing, we had too many. At that time, at least, the DWR saw no value in trying to determine the population numbers because the margins of error made them unusable.

But if we have over 40,000 in captivity, and only 2500 are adopted each year. Still will eat deer meat, though. The deer were not nearly so personable.

I find it hard to believe they will go through with it. I'd sure hate to be the one doing it. Also in the early 80s, I had a couple of chances to briefly work with tame elk. Since then, I've never eaten elk. They were too much like horses...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Also this, which I hadn't caught:



> A House panel has voted to lift a ban on slaughtering horses at meat processing plants...The ban is enforced by blocking the Agriculture Department from providing inspectors at meat plants that slaughter horses and is in place through Sept. 30.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...b1f0ff459df_story.html?utm_term=.97a88a0dc251


Mine will be put down on my property when the time comes. They have given us many good times. Heck, the grandkids were out this evening cleaning the corrals BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO. They just seem to enjoy being around horses even if they are too small to ride.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

How is this for a solution. Get rid of the cattle and sheep. Welcome back the wild predators such as wolves and mountain lion, and maybe even let the bison herds grow a little bit too. Then see if every thing evens itself out. While we are at it, we can drop laws that protect people from their own stupidity and lessen our numbers as well.

I don't see wild horses as feral. I see them as animals that were here and gone long before Europeans ever came over and reintroduced them. I often wonder why they became extinct here in the first place.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Tame deer aren't much different than horses either, tbh. At least the one's I've had any contact with. I've known several people that raised orphaned fawns to adulthood. A neighbor had a doe, kept a goat collar and bell on her - she spent her evenings at our house, hanging out with me in the yard. If you ever scratched her ONCE she'd be in your back pocket the rest of the day.

My daughter still remembers playing with her as a 7 year old... 

Baby Doe didn't like being ridden like a horse though. M'Girl tried it once... and the doe stomped her good for it. Then there was that time m'girl tied a jump rope around her neck in an attempt to make her a 'halter' and then tried to run off into the woods... and DH saw her go past, stepped on the trailing end of the rope to try to stop her before she got in the woods and got strangled... only have the doe reach the end of the rope, whip around, and commence to thrashing him. That 90 lb doe got a 6ft 250 lb firefighter on the ground and whipped. his. butt... then the rope just... fell off. As if it was never tied... and Baby Doe stopped, snorted, and trotted off into the woods, laughing all the way...

I wanted to help... but I was too busy laughing and holding my sides.

Also, never hook your thumb and pinky around the nubs of a tame spike or a button buck, then shake their head and walk off. They think you want to 'play fight' and will nail you right in the tail-end like a goat.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

LoriF said:


> How is this for a solution. Get rid of the cattle and sheep. Welcome back the wild predators such as wolves and mountain lion, and maybe even let the bison herds grow a little bit too. Then see if every thing evens itself out. While we are at it, we can drop laws that protect people from their own stupidity and lessen our numbers as well.
> 
> I don't see wild horses as feral. I see them as animals that were here and gone long before Europeans ever came over and reintroduced them.* I often wonder why they became extinct here in the first place*.


IIRC, North American horses were megafauna. I can't remember if it was ALL of them, or just some. Their vanishing seems to be a mystery, but from what they can tell, their extinction can't be wholly laid at the feet of humans. It was probably caused by a lot of things.

Also, there's this, just for useless information, which I seem to have a lot of:

_"E. giganteus_ likely measured over 20 hands, or 2m (6’7”), as simply, we don’t even know if the few scant remains of teeth we have are from juvenile specimens. (Estimates on total height are 10 feet!) However, we know enough to speculate on _ E. giganteus_ to make it a creature of a Tolkeinesque dreamtime, bigger than a Shire Horse, and weighing in between 700 and 1600 kg depending on which reconstruction model you choose to go with (paleontology is, in this respect, every bit as bad as archaeology- everything has a ‘but what if’ added!). Much good, solid horse sense was written on this by Gidley in 1901, who stated that the superior molar tooth found in Texas in the 19th century was bigger by over a third of the diameter than that of an equivalent modern draft horse."

So, being American, 1600 kg means nothing to me... (Stone I understand, 14lbs to 1 stone; kg, no.) so I used some google fu... that's... wow. That's just over 3500 POUNDS. HOLY SMOKES.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I understand that wild horses are a pest. But how many cattle do we currently have on public lands? Why not charge the cattle ranchers more for grazing permits?

Study: Livestock Grazing on Public Lands Cost Taxpayers $1 Billion Over Past Decade
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2015/grazing-01-28-2015.html

I would support the use of chemical sterilization In our Wild Horses. I would Like To See The Adoption Program Expanded- Sorry For The Caps. They Are No Longer Adopting Horses In Florida. For Me To Adopt I Would Need To Drive 12 Hours Away. They used to ship them here and auction them off every year. 

There is a preserve where i live that had buffalo. The county had all the males removed because they didnt want to fix their fences. I have only seen live buffalo once in my life and it was because of that preserve. 

There is a better way to manage our wild horse herds. They should sterilize them and re-release. There was a billionaire who wanted to create a preserve for them. Why not let her? And sterilize them first. 

Wild horses train no differently than any other horse. In fact they are easier to train then a horse who has been mishandled. My newest rescue is much more difficult to train then the mustang i had.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

LoriF said:


> ...Get rid of the cattle and sheep. Welcome back the wild predators such as wolves and mountain lion...
> 
> I don't see wild horses as feral...


Cattle and sheep are already being gotten rid of. It is getting harder and harder to find public land that allows grazing.

But when it IS allowed, it is regulated. If the cattle or sheep are damaging the land, they will be removed. They are often removed or cut even if the land is doing fine, but that is another matter. If you have a permit (which you have to pay for) that allows you to run 1,000 sheep, the feds can at their discretion and for any reason cut it down to 750, 500 or 0. Tomorrow. No complaining.

You cannot do that with wild horses, which ARE feral. That is why wild horses can look like draft horses, quarter horses, be tall and slender or short fatso ponies like my BLM mustang. Just depends on what got loose near there.

Wolves and mountain lions can't be reintroduced in very many areas. We have Interstate Highways cutting through the large territories needed for them. And if they get too numerous, they cheerfully eat dogs and cats. The folks who love wild animals and vote for them get less enthusiastic when their pet dogs start disappearing.

Some predators - coyotes - adapt well to humans nearby. We have coyotes pass thru our front yard frequently. Wolves and cougars don't adapt as well.

If this was a case of competition between the ranchers and the wild horses, the wild horses would win. 



> We're sorry for tricking you into thinking we're unicorns. We didn't know what else to do...We're wild and magical and when you see us you get a free feeling in your heart...
> 
> Save America's Unicorns | Save America's Wild Horses


How can anyone oppose saving...unicorns?! :-?

NOTE: Yes, I do know people who buy grazing permits. Yes, they prefer to avoid buying them from the feds because they view the federal grazing permits as bad business - too much cost for too much bother. But they will buy them if they cannot find anything else.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

bsms said:


> *How can anyone oppose saving...unicorns?! :-?*


Since you put it that way, I have it on good authority that unicorns are jerks. Makes the decision a lot easier... :blueunicorn:


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## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> IIRC, North American horses were megafauna.


There's no definitive answer as to why megafauna are largely extinct the world over; however the only interglacial period without megafauna is the one we are currently living within; its also the only one with humans at our stage of development. 

Humanity is also abnormal in that our hunting method targets the best of stock not the weaker; our ability to use tools to remove ourselves from the danger zone or to even use traps to totally remove risk to ourselves means that our hunting methods can be more bold. Most animals go for weaker/isolated/injured animals because they have to get right in close for the kill; the hunt itself is as dangerous to them as their prey. Humans are not as much in danger and thus can instead go for that big impressive herd leader.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Humans, in general, are the most destructive species on planet earth and we sit here talking about how we need to get rid of this and get rid of that, and the majority agrees. Or at least the most money and power does. We have created such an imbalance, it's pathetic.

Migration of animals, including people is nothing new. It's been going on since animal life has been this planet. Whether by walking, flying, taking a boat or riding on the back of an animal. Things spread. With our technology, it just happens faster. So just because something migrated does not mean that they don't belong here.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

4horses said:


> I understand that wild horses are a pest. But how many cattle do we currently have on public lands? Why not charge the cattle ranchers more for grazing permits?


Because meat is big business. Everyone wants to eat it... but horsemeat is politically incorrect... If it weren't & they introduced it for human consumption, you can bet they'd be more than happy with more feral horses abounding!


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## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

LoriF said:


> So just because something migrated does not mean that they don't belong here.



Well yes and no. 
In truth no animal "Belongs" anywhere; but where the natural system functions it achieves a general balance where by predator and prey evolve alongside; one gets better and so does the other. As such both can survive, although you might get niche subspecies that come and go. 

The difference with human induced migration is where you get those that survive in the new environment they directly start to out-compete what is naturally present. This is because they are essentially outside of the evolved system. 

What this means is that you get a rise in a dominant new species and typically a loss of several or multiple other species. At best you might lose one or two; at worst it can totally destroy a habitat; which means you're knocking out species after species. Pirri Pirri is a plant and a great example in the UK. It comes from Australia and in its native habitat is even endangered at present; however in the UK (esp in the south were we are not getting harsh winters any more) it has no natural counter. So it grows and grows. You can end up with fields of almost nothing but it. 

That knocks out a vast range of plants that otherwise support a huge population of insects which in turn support the bird populations as well as linking into pollination systems that we even rely on for our farming. 




This is why invasive non-natives are a huge problem. They basically spark major extinction events and cause huge damage. Yes the system can recover from this, in hundreds to thousands of years. Along the way you also lose a lot of species and humanity is, slowly, realising that individual species are important not just to the ecosystem but to our own survival. Science has already deemed that we are basically living in a major extinction event right now where the numbers of species lost is vastly in excess of the normal gain and loss of the natural system. 



Horses in a system without predatory pressure and without natural competition mean that they can damage the environment so that other species that are native can no longer viably survive; esp when those species are already under pressure from land loss to human activities


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

LoriF said:


> Humans, in general, are the most destructive species on planet earth and we sit here talking about how we need to get rid of this and get rid of that,... So just because something migrated does not mean that they don't belong here.


Yep, agree with you... to a degree. Unfortunately no one's going to support knocking off enough of the human population to prevent further environmental degradation. But when ferals - and domestics - cause environmental damage & endangering or extinction of natives, I don't think it's appropriate to just accept that 'because it's always happened naturally'. That to me is akin to saying there's nothing wrong with invading a country & exterminate all the people you find & call it 'Terra Nullius' because you feel like 'migrating' there with your colonial mates.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

LoriF said:


> Humans, in general, are the most destructive species on planet earth and we sit here talking about how we need to get rid of this and get rid of that, and the majority agrees. Or at least the most money and power does. We have created such an imbalance, it's pathetic...


When it comes to discussions of unicorns, the money and power are on the side of the unicorns! That money and power - the vote of the city folks - has CAUSED the present problem. It blocked slaughter. It blocked sterilization. It blocked hunting. And they don't show the results: overgrazing, destruction of vegetation, competition with deer, and ultimately population control via starvation.

When there is a drought, HUMANS tell other humans - the feds tell the ranchers - to cut the number of cattle they are running by 50% for the next 3 years. And the rancher has to comply or else. But since the wild horses lack a human owner, there is no one who can say "Pull these horses off for 3 years until the land can recover".

In a natural system, without Interstates or cities or towns, the animals adjust by migrating or dying. And if the land is ruined for 100 years...well, so what? What is 100 years to the earth? 5,000 years from now, the next glacier will wipe it clean!

Nature has solutions that are vastly more brutal than the US Forest Service or BLM. 

My three horses are 1.5 mustang. Next to Arabians, mustangs are my favorite. I've done more for mustangs than most of the people who support them! But mustangs are not unicorns. They can ruin the land and drive out genuinely native species. And the natural solution is starvation. And a few hundred years of recovery time.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Don't know if yall have heard of EAJA, (Equal Access to Justice Act). It has been abused by radical groups for years. The idea was to provide an access to people that had a legitimate complaint against the government but no money to sue.

The EAJA provides that if they are successful and win the case, the government entity they sue is responsible for their litigation costs.

There has been a cottage industry of lawyers grown up around the EAJA. They know which judges are sympathetic to what cause and have become good at estimating their success. 

So the groups hire them for a nominal fee just to file suit. If it looks good to the lawyer, he'll file and proceed on his own.

The BLM or USFS looks at their costs for defense and the possibility of paying for the offense. And these cottage lawyers file big charges when they win.

So the BLM or USFS just rolls over even though they don't wish to.

That is what happened with the surgical sterilization of mares. Threatened lawsuits and public pressure.

As said, hard to say if it will go through and probably not in it's current form. I'd like to see it go through just for the BLM. That would allow the BLM to move forward with the most efficient and human methods for reducing to a sustainable herd.

I do not believe the BLM really prefers slaughter no do I believe Ben Masters does, but it would provide a tool for proceeding on a rationale basis.

And right, sterilizing the males would do nothing for the feral herds. But for those in captivity to possibly be put out in several smaller herds to live out their life, it might be a possibility. But the herds would need to be monitored somewhat for a stallion showing up. Guess it'd be obvious if babies showed up.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

LoriF said:


> I often wonder why they became extinct here in the first place.


Some have thought the people that migrated here across the Bering Strait over hunted them. But I don't believe they could kill off that many horses, sabre tooth tigers, and all the other megafauna that died off at that time.

The theory that sounds more plausible to me is that the animals brought by the migrating people had disease
that the isolated animals of North America had no defense against.

I'm sure glad the horses made it across the bearing strait and outta here before they died off!!

North America is where they all originally came from.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

All "advanced" countries have declining birthrates. The US and Europe and perhaps some others are all below 2 for sustaining population. If I remember, a few years ago Italy was down to 1.1.

So all the horses gotta do is hang on a wait until the humans advance themselves gone.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

From what I recall of my archaeology classes, the popular theory regarding the disappearance of megafauna is a global reduction in oxygen, making the larger sizes unsustainable. And I think there might have been a mini ice age around the same time. Now, I can't recall WHY the global oxygen level dropped.... I'm assuming there must have been something that killed off the megaflora - maybe that same mini ice age?!


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

I know that the now-extinct North American Cheetah was responsible for the evolution of the ultrafast pronghorn antelope ... perhaps something like the cheetah killed off the horses of the time before it went extinct? It was far faster than any of the early equids. Faster than modern equids, in fact. Perhaps it was too fast for early horses to survive.

Also, yes first world countries tend to have low birthrates ... but developing nations like India more than make up for it with ridiculously high birth rates. The current world population is increasing dramatically, so much so that simply waiting for developing countries to reach a plateau like us will put us into food and land shortages.

-- Kai


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

The final die off only happened about 11,000 years ago. The article linked gives the lie to disease. New research indicates 70-90% of the die off had already occurred prior to humans. No cut marks on horse bones so that indicates they were not hunted.

There was a 1,300 year "cold spell" that now seems to be the favored opinion.

What Killed the Great Beasts of North America? | Science | AAAS


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

boots said:


> In addition to lawsuits against the BLM that have stopped sterilization:
> 
> It is truly impossible to capture all the male horses. And if some are left intact, as they should be to continue even a reasonable number of feral horses, they will breed every available female. They will breed until they are sick, weak, and literally can't go on. Poor things can't help themselves.
> .


I'm imagining the super sly (and very potent LOL) ninja horses we'd end up with if only the horses able to hide well enough to avoid sterilization were allowed breed. ROFLOL


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

4horses said:


> I understand that wild horses are a pest. But how many cattle do we currently have on public lands? Why not charge the cattle ranchers more for grazing permits?
> 
> Study: Livestock Grazing on Public Lands Cost Taxpayers $1 Billion Over Past Decade
> Study: Livestock Grazing on Public Lands Cost Taxpayers $1 Billion Over Past Decade


Not surprisingly, that site only tells part of one half of the story.

Leasing from the Feds costs much more than the grazing fee. I've done it. 

In the correct effort to support multiple use (grazing, wildlife, recreation, education, research) the lease holder has to maintain the fences. Change the fences when research shows a government fence may be interfering with migration of a species (doesn't matter which, just any). Has to maintain, and even improve water for domestic and wild and human use. Maintain and improve riparian areas (super difficult if the are horses with their flat, un-cloven hooves trampling through and stomping marshes and springs into oblivion).

You also have to prove you aren't over-grazing. Sounds easy. Just look at it. Nope. On public land you have groups who want you to cease to exist and will turn in bogus data on forage. OR they will run your cattle into the timber , which is reserved for wildlife (for their health and protection) and take photos and turn you in. Then you have to defend yourself. When I did lease from the Forest Service, I paid a research group to monitor my leased ground and send regular reports. That reduced some of the un-founded complaints and sabotage.

You also have to repair any erosion and other signs of human activity ( most often caused by the recreational and educational users).

All this with your own money to labor and materials.

Public land is expensive. It costs the taxpayers millions. It costs ranchers million over what they pay in grazing fees, too.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

loosie said:


> Yep, agree with you... to a degree. Unfortunately no one's going to support knocking off enough of the human population to prevent further environmental degradation. But when ferals - and domestics - cause environmental damage & endangering or extinction of natives, I don't think it's appropriate to just accept that 'because it's always happened naturally'. That to me is akin to saying there's nothing wrong with invading a country & exterminate all the people you find & call it 'Terra Nullius' because you feel like 'migrating' there with your colonial mates.


I don't think knocking off half of the population is really my train of thought. But, if people do it to themselves without interference, that is something else. Oh wait, that is probably what we are doing right now, on a global scale. Mostly because of fear and greed.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I doubt we're close to knocking off half the humans in the world. There is a lot of craziness going around, but nothing to compare to World Wars 1 & 2, or the Great Influenza Pandemic. The latter killed 20-100 million people(estimates vary wildly because virtually the entire world was affected) but barely made a dent in population growth.








​ 
The death camps in the Soviet Union and China killed uncounted millions more. And don't forget the ecological hiccup of the Dust Bowls of the 1930s:








​ 
We're actually in a pretty calm time. For now. It won't last, but it won't kill a billion plus people when the real craziness resumes.

Population growth rates come down as wealth increases. So does pollution. The very poor in the world cannot afford to worry about pollution and they need kids to support them when they are old. They don't worry about horses.

Someone in 1938 would have seen the devastation of the Flu Pandemic, World War One, the Great Depression, The Dust Bowls and be able to see World War Two on the brink of happening. My Dad was born in 1923. At 17, he had every reason to believe the world HAD gone mad - and he still had to survive his future service in World War 2, which left him with nightmares for the remainder of his life!

We should be glad we have time to discuss sterilizing mustangs. Mustangs CAN be discussed largely because the rest of the world is relatively calm right now.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

As a mother of young-ish kids... I'm going to play ostrich & stick my head in the sand, on bsms's last note I reckon... Being a parent is scary & guilt-ridden enough...


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Bad news, @loosie! It gets even worse when you have the grandkids' futures to worry about! ;-) My "baby" is 32 now and my oldest will be 39 this year. My oldest granddaughter is in the Army (20 y/o) and married. I might have to start worrying about great-grandchildrens' futures before too long!

But back to Mustangs and the Feral Horse herds that aren't considered "mustangs" and aren't under BLM protections. There was a big hoo-haw about a year ago when the Forestry Service was planning to round up or shoot the feral herd that runs along the Verde River. Thousands of people protested, media got involved, and the Forestry Service gave up.

I didn't like the idea of a complete cull of the feral herd, but I can understand the need to manage it. Same goes with the mustangs. There needs to be a responsible, thoughtful approach and plan, but unfortunately, since mustang management is under the purview of the Government, that won't happen. Their only concerns seem to be expedience and cost.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

The Humane Society has some opinions about horse slaughter.

Among them they say, " Horses are still being sent to slaughter, across our borders into Canada and Mexico, and the number of American horses sent to slaughter has not decreased since domestic plants closed in 2007."

The Facts About Horse Slaughter : The Humane Society of the United States


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

For those who think the livestock numbers should be reduced on public land: Who are you going to blame when the livestock are gone?

The numbers have already been reduced significantly yet the blame still resides with livestock. The livestock are managed the horses are not. Horses are not moved to control their grazing and the numbers are far more than what the HMAs should be holding. Some horses may be gathered but not enough and some are turned back out, what a waste of money. 
Working in very remote areas of Nevada I've seen horses where the BLM claims there are none and shouldn't be. Some HMAs have triple the numbers, how is that range management? I realize the BLM is stuck between a rock and a hard place trying to keep both sides happy but it has gone too far and this what they are stuck dealing with.

I don't want to see the horses eradicated I want to see management.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

COWCHICK77 said:


> For those who think the livestock numbers should be reduced on public land: Who are you going to blame when the livestock are gone?
> 
> The numbers have already been reduced significantly yet the blame still resides with livestock. The livestock are managed the horses are not. Horses are not moved to control their grazing and the numbers are far more than what the HMAs should be holding. Some horses may be gathered but not enough and some are turned back out, what a waste of money.
> Working in very remote areas of Nevada I've seen horses where the BLM claims there are none and shouldn't be. Some HMAs have triple the numbers, how is that range management? I realize the BLM is stuck between a rock and a hard place trying to keep both sides happy but it has gone too far and this what they are stuck dealing with.
> ...


Bingo. I don't think it will happen though.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> Bingo. I don't think it will happen though.


I agree. They've let the activists bully them for too long.


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## EstrellaandJericho (Aug 12, 2017)

Uhg. Reading all of this makes me mad. Not at y'all, but those who have their heart in the wrong place. The male horses that aren't good breeding stock should be casterated, just like in domestic breeding programs. That way, good genes get passed on to make the mustang better. I read an article that Border Patrol adopts mustangs because their natural instincts and night vision help catch those who are smuggling people. Say what you will about their job title, but I think that's awesome they do that.

The only way I would be okay with slaughter is the humane way... Whether its the chemical way or a bullet to the head. The way Mexico does it is deplorable. No one animal or person deserves that death. 

If people are upset about slaughter, I always like to point out the BYB's that breed for "color" over "confirmation". Pretty isn't everything, especially when you are producing horses who can't be worked due to conformational defects. Does anyone remember the fugly horse blog back in the day? She was a bit critical, but dang it made me laugh and it brought a lot of awareness to that issue.


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