# Help with ground driving, there is no moving forward.. literally



## jyuukai (Apr 19, 2011)

Could you possibly start by ground driving him in a circle around you, and then slowly moving back behind him until you are in the 'driving' position? With my 2yo I started the basics of ground driving when she was a yearling and this is how I got her used to me being behind her. She was confused to, she couldn't figure out why I wouldn't let her turn to get a face rub lol.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

I have done some natural horsemanship and my horses ground drive. It sounds like you need instruction and if you do not have proper equipment that will add to the confusion. I would try it with thye lines through the stirrups 1st over a bareback pad. Longer lines would help also instead of being so close to your horse
Ground-Driving Training Technique | MyHorse.com


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

First off, don't even attempt it until you have the proper equipment to ground drive him. You need lines that are at least 20' long to keep yourself safe and not give conflicting cues. The bareback pad will work fine as a sircingle substitute. Halter is fine. Whip is mandatory. Run your lines fron the halter through the stirrups to help keep them orderly. Put him along side an arena fence, step to the inside so you are out of his blind spot and he can see you. Step back far enough to be out of range. You need to be able to touch is butt with the whip so you're normally 3-4 steps behind him. Give him the walk off cue and reinforce it with the whip. You're not striking him, just a firm tap. If he doesn't get it, make it stronger. Be precise with what you want of him. Don't pick at him with the whip (tap, tap, tap) or he'll tune you out. You'll probably have to whack him once to get his attention. Be ready to go with him so you're not pulling on the reins with the first step off. You have to communitate with your lines, voice and whip so use them. I tend to carry the whip in the outside hand when starting. When you start working on turns, I find it helpful to drive the outside hip.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

fascinating stuff. i intend to do some basic ground driving stuff with my coming yearling this summer so these are handy tips to start. we also have a burro that we want to start ground driving. i assume (maybe wrongfully) that training the burro will be similar?


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## PerchiesKisses (Dec 6, 2010)

I have a TB that has learned to ground drive, and I agree you need longer lines. You need to be able to stand several feet back. The bareback pad is fine as a temporary surcingle. It helps too if the lines are a little on the heavier side. 

You need to stand directly behind him - far enough back that he CAN'T kick you. 

If he insists on spinning to face you, have a buddy hold him until you get behind him. When you're set to go, have the buddy let him go and let him stand for a moment. Standing is good.

Now cue him. either say "walk on" or kiss or whatever you want for the cue to be.

He probably won't move out on this. So here comes the fun part. start wiggling your reins, just like you would in the yo-yo game, but wiggle so that they are tapping both sides of his butt. Just like the yo-yo game, wiggle harder and harder UNTIL he steps forward. And he will at some point. He'll want to figure out a way to make you stop wiggling.

As soon as he so much as steps forward, stop wiggling and praise him. Even if he just lifts his foot. Don't let him turn around though. Use that friend again to hold him if need be.

Important! if he starts to back up do not stop wiggling! he must not find release from backing up, only going forward at this point. 

Once he has been rewarded for this small step, ask again. Don't ask him to take five steps forward, but rather ask him for a single step five times. 

As soon as you feel he has begun to understand the meaning of your 'go' cue, stop for the day. Do something else, love on him, give him treats. You can come back to ground driving later in the day or tomorrow. 

And the next time you go to ground drive, do these same steps. Only, and I do mean ONLY when he steps forward faithfully every time on your cue with very minimal wiggling, you can start asking for more than a step. Ask for three steps. He'll want to stop after the first, but give your cue again BEFORE he stops (when you feel him hesitating) and wiggle (lightly to harder as needed). When he's taken a couple steps YOU ask him to stop.

This will start the understanding up I walk until you ask me to.

Once this is accomplished, it's just a matter of practicing it. And he'll get better every time


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Not to disagree with Perch but no way would I shake the lines. This is what a whip is for and the lines are for contact, steering and stopping. If you are using a halter and shaking from behind I would think the pressure on the nose would tell me to back up. If you use a bit that is way to much feel on there mouth


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

churumbeque said:


> Not to disagree with Perch but no way would I shake the lines. This is what a whip is for and the lines are for contact, steering and stopping. If you are using a halter and shaking from behind I would think the pressure on the nose would tell me to back up. If you use a bit that is way to much feel on there mouth


 Agree. The shaking the line is a backup cue under halter. Also, when you shake the line, you loose contact with the mouth. You always want soft fluid contact on both sides. Also standing right behing him is not the place to be. You are standing in his blind spot and I want him to see me out of the corner of his eye until he is comfortable with me back there. When you are right behind him, you also have the least amount of strength when the lines are straight. If you've ever had a horse bolt on you, you know that once they get facing away from you they're gone. If you can break that line (through the terrets) you will have much more leverage.


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## PerchiesKisses (Dec 6, 2010)

I've used this method on several horses successfully, and all of those horses have been intelligent enough to differentiate between a wiggle under the halter meaning back up and a wiggle against his rump meaning step forward.

The barn I've learned to drive at has never used whips for driving. We just don't and all the horses are sane, level headed horses who are easy to handle and work with. Small children can drive every one of them.

Understand too that when I start a horse I actual don't want contact on the mouth to start with. Maybe it's the western background, but I'd rather the horse be relaxed while driving for the first few times. Only after the horse has mastered his stop, start, left and right do I begin asking for him to work with contact on his mouth.

Now I won't judge anyone who trains differently. I understand there are many ways to train a horse that will produce similar results.

Do remember though, to avoid bolting issues you MUST desensitize the horse to the reins. He must be 100% okay with feeling them against him, near his legs, and I like to thred them under his belly too just incase something happens and I drop one or he does manage to get loose some day it doesn't become a big surprise for him. And if you're calm, he'll be calm. I'm assuming if you're comfortable working in a halter that he's not a nutcase to start with.

Should a bolt happen, even from behind a horse, you can alter his direction and get him going in a circle around you. Let the bolt run itself out, and address the cause of the bolt.

Also, because you say you're working in halter and the horse isn't wearing blinders, he will be able to turn his head and see you there. It's okay if he looks. It's not okay for him to turn around. And please stand far enough back that it is IMPOSSIBLE to kick you.

You don't have to agree with my techniques, everyone has techniques that work better for themselves. I have found this one to work best for me. Good luck all the same.

Nikki: my ottb in harness with his Standardbred cart:










Jessie: my bf's horse driving in halter:










Chalupa: a beautiful gelding who had similar issues with wanting to spin around:


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Perch,

There are so many things wrong with your photo's that I would suggest you taking some proper lessons. Your harness or lack of one of doesn't fit. Your blinders are not centered on his eyes. Your breast collar is a mess, your shafts are way too high, your bit is too low, and your horse looks very unhealthy


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## PerchiesKisses (Dec 6, 2010)

*sigh* all these photos are from our starting stages, and my horse is perfectly healthy, thank you very much. I have since adjusted the cart - it was nikkis first time in it so there was still some adjusting to do. And my horse is a perfectly sane, easy to work with horse who does everything asked of him without argument and without endangering anyone. The gentleman ive learned from has owned and trained for thirty some odd years. 

I fail to see why you must critise a method that works for me and has worked for the gentleman whose taught me. I do not ask you to alter your method for mine, everyone must follow there own instincts before someone elses. But quite frankly i find your comment more rude than insightful
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

PerchiesKisses said:


> *sigh* all these photos are from our starting stages, and my horse is perfectly healthy, thank you very much. I have since adjusted the cart - it was nikkis first time in it so there was still some adjusting to do. And my horse is a perfectly sane, easy to work with horse who does everything asked of him without argument and without endangering anyone. The gentleman ive learned from has owned and trained for thirty some odd years.
> 
> I fail to see why you must critise a method that works for me and has worked for the gentleman whose taught me. I do not ask you to alter your method for mine, everyone must follow there own instincts before someone elses. But quite frankly i find your comment more rude than insightful
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would be adjusting as I put it on so it would not have that many issues. It sounds as though you may not know all the things that need adjusting or you really would not have posted that picture. 30 years of doing something does not make you an expert if you are not doing it correctly.
The whip is used for cueing and lack of using one does not have anything to do with a horse being sane or not. If you horse where to start backing for no reason how would you get it to stop if it kept going? If you needed to move his body over how do you do that?
If you need him to get up under himself more how do you do that?
If you need his shoulder over how do you do that?
Just curious as a whip is pretty darn handy for cueing. If you shake your reins every time he is to speed up how do you keep proper contact and not shake his mouth?
Maybe if you think about these questions one of us may learn something and it will be insightfull


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## PerchiesKisses (Dec 6, 2010)

If you horse where to start backing for no reason how would you get it to stop if it kept going? 
A: A sharp cluck is his cue, and if he were to insist a sharp slap with the rein
If you needed to move his body over how do you do that?
A: lay the rein oposite the direction I want against his hip and say "over" which he understands from previous training in the barn.
If you need him to get up under himself more how do you do that?
A: a soft "ch-ch-ch" sound is my cue for him to collect.
If you need his shoulder over how do you do that?
A: I've never needed to move just his shoulders, but a soft pull on one rein gets him turning.
If you shake your reins every time he is to speed up how do you keep proper contact and not shake his mouth?
A: and I don't shake for him to speed up. I use "walk on" and "T-rot" depending on the gait I want. The shake of the reins is a back up cue, not the cue itself. 
I'll be the first to admit that I have not used breastcollar harnesses or carts with shafts often, so I'm still learning with the cart style. But I've driven teams for four years now under the guidance of my trainer. And I have never encountered a situation that we have required a whip for.
As for my horse, I am proud of how far he's come since I've gotten him. He is an OTTB, and despite a rocky adjustment to the herd setting, is doing quite well. The vet's looked him over and besides some old injuries from the track that are healed but have left their scars, he is perfectly healthy.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

PerchiesKisses said:


> If you horse where to start backing for no reason how would you get it to stop if it kept going?
> A: A sharp cluck is his cue, and if he were to insist a sharp slap with the rein
> *A: that would be a cue for my horse to go forward not stop and be still. I would just lay the whip on her rear and hold it and sat whoa.*
> If you needed to move his body over how do you do that?
> ...


*I just know about driving singles not multiples so I do not know if that is different but I thought he looked thin and ribby his coat did not look healthy*


My answers imbedded in *bold*


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## PerchiesKisses (Dec 6, 2010)

churumbeque said:


> *I just know about driving singles not multiples so I do not know if that is different but I thought he looked thin and ribby his coat did not look healthy*
> 
> 
> My answers imbedded in *bold*


 
AH! that might be where the differences began lol. See I've learned teams first and then transferred to single. 

Oh and shaking the reins is not a back up cue coming from behind a horse (at least for mine). It has a lot to do with placement of the reins too. when you shake from in front, usually the lead is attached under the halter. When you shake from the back, the reins are attached at the sides, creating a different feel for the shake. And because the reins are loose when I first start, and usually the streight connection to the mouth is broken by where the lines pass through the surcingle, there isn't unneccessary pulling on his mouth. The lines wiggle against his hips, but not all the way up. (there is going to be some motion on his bit, but not enough to cause unneccessary discomfort or panic)

Also, the voice cue is the cue you want the horse to learn to move off of. not the wiggle. I understand that the op's horse is not going to understand the initial voice command, that is why you back it up with a wiggle of the reins against his sides. But you always start with the voice. It's the same with teaching a 'whoa'.

You say 'whoa'... wait a second.. block his forward momentum... wait a second... pull back slightly more.. and when he does stop. Release all pressure. Eventually the horse learns whoa = stop. same with the go. walk on = go.

I appreciate you're methods, I understand that for single cart I have a lot more yet to learn (that's what horses are about) But having successfully had several horses ground driving for me, I don't feel my method is neccessarily wrong, rather than just a different way of doing things.


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## ButtInTheDirt (Jan 16, 2011)

Sorry for me not commenting on anyone else, but PerchiesKisses, wiggling the leadrope is how I get my horse to back up. That is why I mentioned what type of training I did. By no means would wiggling the reins help me go forward, so there isn't much point in arguing about it.

But thank you everyone for the comments, they are very helpful.


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## PerchiesKisses (Dec 6, 2010)

That's fine. It's your call how you want to train your horse.


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## masatisan (Jan 12, 2009)

I dont know much about driving but my BO teaches every single one of his horses to longline. I know his cue for forward is just a slap on the butt with the reins. He starts them on the side, slapping then on both flanks, and then as the horse progresses moves them up till theyre sitting over the rump. If the horse tries to spin he slaps pulls, yells basicly, harsh as it seems, he blows up at the horse till he gets the behavior he wants. 

I watched him train a young gelding who had a tantrum pulling a tire, you could just tell this horse was having an absolute meltdown. He was leaping up, rearing, trying to spin, kicking out, trying to run out, but he couldnt get out of it. The BO basicly works them through anything and everything. He says if you let them stop, they remember it forever and wont ever be as good as they would have been if you had worked through it.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

masatisan said:


> I dont know much about driving but my BO teaches every single one of his horses to longline. I know his cue for forward is just a slap on the butt with the reins. He starts them on the side, slapping then on both flanks, and then as the horse progresses moves them up till theyre sitting over the rump. If the horse tries to spin he slaps pulls, yells basicly, harsh as it seems, he blows up at the horse till he gets the behavior he wants.
> 
> I watched him train a young gelding who had a tantrum pulling a tire, you could just tell this horse was having an absolute meltdown. He was leaping up, rearing, trying to spin, kicking out, trying to run out, but he couldnt get out of it. The BO basicly works them through anything and everything. He says if you let them stop, they remember it forever and wont ever be as good as they would have been if you had worked through it.


He wouldn't be working any of my horses and mine have never had a meltdown nor would I want them to. A year later some poor owner will be writing for advice about how to stop their horse from rearing who has no idea what the horse has been through. A lttle preparation goes along way. With all the info out there I am surprised this wild west type training still exists.


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## masatisan (Jan 12, 2009)

churumbeque said:


> He wouldn't be working any of my horses and mine have never had a meltdown nor would I want them to. A year later some poor owner will be writing for advice about how to stop their horse from rearing who has no idea what the horse has been through. A lttle preparation goes along way. With all the info out there I am surprised this wild west type training still exists.


My B.O rarely trains horses that he isnt already familiar with. This gelding I mentioned was one of _his_ 85 horses that he bred and raised who is currently being trained in his very successful lease to buy program (and the lease-to-buyer was right there as well). It was that horses first time being hitched to anything and he was freaking out because he was green, not because of past issues. 

The B.O knows all his horses inside and out and knows exactly what works for them. Though he is harsh, its never beyond reason, I have never seen him whip his horses or punish them unreasonably. He just doesn't let them flip out when they're introduced to new things and makes them work through it until they are calm. He didn't do anything different when the horse started to get upset, he just wanted to stop because he had enough. Imagine if he had just said "okay, we'll stop, the horse doesn't want to anymore" Its that kind of thinking that makes problem horses, not working through it. 

Working a green horse through an issue is called _training_, green horses buck at saddles, they kick at ferriers, they all say they've had enough at some point during training, but if you say "well that's it then" Will he stop kicking out? Will he be still when you put that saddle on? will he pull the tire all the way up the driveway and back? _Hell no_. And it will be a hell of a lot harder to work through it the longer you let it go. That is why my as you say "wild west type" B.O works his horses through it the _first_ time it happens.


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## PerchiesKisses (Dec 6, 2010)

The trainer I've worked with is known to get a little rough too when the horse is being unreasonable. I've seen him spin a horse into the dirt once because the horse bucked -- but this horse had a bucking issue before he came to the barn and I'll tell you that horse NEVER bucked on anyone after. I agree with working through issues. And every now and then you encounter that moment where the horse will test you and you may need to get a little nasty to make it clear that the behaviour in question is NOT APPROPRIATE. but if you are new to ground driving please don't try tackling any behaviour issues like this on your own. While a 'wild west type' method may be a quick efficient way of working through an issue, there is a larger risk of getting hurt on the driver's part. Especially if you're not comfortable with handling the reins, maintaining proper distance from the horse, or working with propper functioning tack.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

masatisan said:


> My B.O rarely trains horses that he isnt already familiar with. This gelding I mentioned was one of _his_ 85 horses that he bred and raised who is currently being trained in his very successful lease to buy program (and the lease-to-buyer was right there as well). It was that horses first time being hitched to anything and he was freaking out because he was green, not because of past issues.
> 
> The B.O knows all his horses inside and out and knows exactly what works for them. Though he is harsh, its never beyond reason, I have never seen him whip his horses or punish them unreasonably. He just doesn't let them flip out when they're introduced to new things and makes them work through it until they are calm. He didn't do anything different when the horse started to get upset, he just wanted to stop because he had enough. Imagine if he had just said "okay, we'll stop, the horse doesn't want to anymore" Its that kind of thinking that makes problem horses, not working through it.
> 
> Working a green horse through an issue is called _training_, green horses buck at saddles, they kick at ferriers, they all say they've had enough at some point during training, but if you say "well that's it then" Will he stop kicking out? Will he be still when you put that saddle on? will he pull the tire all the way up the driveway and back? _Hell no_. And it will be a hell of a lot harder to work through it the longer you let it go. That is why my as you say "wild west type" B.O works his horses through it the _first_ time it happens.


In my experience with proper introduction to being hitched there wouldn't have been an issue that upset the horse. I have never seen any horses flip out and have a problem because a trusting foundation was in place before hand


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## codyhorse (May 12, 2011)

*ground driving*

i have had pretty good luckwith ground driving, before there were clinics there were old men who had farmed with teams, i learned alot from them. but first i assume your horse will lunge and respond to voice commands. it would be nice if you could get an old set of harness and lunge him in that first ( my first set had chains and jingled).next, get a helper. most colts do want to twist around and face you, you are in a different location! it will go much better, not toget the helper to lead so much as to keep the hores from getting tangled up. also you need to have lines long enough to be out of kicking range. as the horse progresses, you will want to be able to drive him from more alongside, serpentines are fun, they also teach him to get used to things rubbing his legs. this will help you if you decide to ever hook him up, the traces won't bother him. i also think you would want to check his head just enough he can't lower it below a good light contact riding position, you will have more control.i see it is the fad to allow some breeds to almost be able to touch the ground with their noses in driving classes. that is a controlled environment! in the real worldthat is called an accident waiting to happen! my 13 year old is pretty bombproof, but when we hit the blacktop, he has room to relax his mouth but not enough to tangle lines in the shafts or get goofy if a tarp flies out the back of a truck. you can use reins arounb the horn for a check, bot don't use a good saddle and don't run the linse thru the stirrups or anything else. if he were to run off you can't circle him to get back control, you can do that later.i had one going pretty good one time and she froze, jut refused to move, so i gave her a little slap with one of the lines... reared way up and flipped on top of the saddle.i just kept her down, it scared her so bad she never did it again, made the best kids horse ever! best of luck!


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