# The horse, or me?



## millermwok (May 21, 2018)

I have been taking lessons continually starting as a newbie about 9 months ago. My instructor now prefers (and I agree) that I select a horse that he categorizes as needing an intermediate rider at the least. So maybe that says something about where I am, I wouldnt know how to categorize myself. 

But here’s the thing and I don’t know if it is me or the horses at this facility (there are really only 2 that he prefers me to be on since I am an adult guy and his small selection is generally smaller horses for kids). They will simply not keep up a trot for me. His beginner’s horse actually went ¾ around the arena once, it was pretty cold and I figure the horse welcomed the exercise. The Arabian will only go ¼ the perimeter if I am lucky. Doesn’t matter whether I sit or post. And he says I have an unusually quiet sitting trot so it seems that should be a plus as far as the horse is concerned. 

This is English instruction so maybe the horse isn’t accustomed to the sitting. And I suppose if I were to get out of sync on the post I could see that maybe confusing the horse, but its not easy to establish and keep a rhythm if you only get 3 strides to do it. But generally I do post ok. So after all that said, guess my question is do horses generally willingly keep the same gait going until you queue them to slow, or is it not unusual to have to continually, and I do mean continually, ask that they keep it going? 

I watch videos and I see plenty of horses keeping their gaits going and I don’t see any aids given to do it. And finally if it could be me rather than the horse, then what could it be that I am doing or not doing? The instructor simply tells me to ask again, ask again. If continually not asking is the only thing I am doing wrong, then I have to think it’s the horse? Otherwise it seems he should be telling me to do something different as far as technique. 

But if it is his horses I could see him not wanting to admit it. He has never offered to demonstrate himself how he keeps it at a continual trot if he can, so maybe that says something about the horses? He has said before that if you can ride his lesson horses, you can ride any horse. Not sure what that means. Maybe that is a clue. 

We haven’t cantered yet, just as an fyi. Thing is the instructor and I do have a good personal relation so I hate to change. I am considering buying a horse (if I find one that keeps a gait going  and my plans included ownership at some point anyway) and continue lessons with it and him. If you read this far, thanks in advance for thoughts and suggestions!


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

It's always a bit strange to see what people call an "intermediate rider". "Intermediate", to me, is a rider who can control a well trained horse independently at all gaits in open terrain; the next step being an "advanced rider", who can do the same with a green(er) horse. But that is neither here nor there.

There are horses who naturally have a lot of Whoa!. I have just started to watch Clinton Anderson's "Titan" series on YouTube, and he's training a horse that is as athletic as he's lazy. CA makes it difficult for the horse to be lazy - he doesn't nag, he gets results. 

When you keep on asking but ultimately have to give up before you get the desired response, the horse interprets that as having given the desired response. He'll think, "I'm going slow already - what else do you want? Why do you keep kicking me?" And then you get tired, give up, and stop kicking (nagging) him, telling him, "Finally. I guess I just have to be more patient next time."

It seems as though neither you nor your instructor are able to handle those horses - you, because you are not supposed to yet, as you are still learning (so there is no judgment against you), and your instructor, even though he _should be_ but giving you rubbish instructions.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

It's you. It's always the rider. 

Kidding. Well, sort of. 

It's true that some horses are amazingly well trained. My daughter's show horse is like that. He was a champion dressage horse before we bought him and switched him to jumping, which he also excels at doing. He has all the buttons, and knows to keep a gait for as long as you require, even if he's tired, even if he's really out of shape. Except if you put a beginner rider on him. He gets very frustrated and impatient with beginner riders.

And as an aside, no one who has been taking lessons 9 months, cannot keep a horse in the trot, and has never cantered, would be considered an intermediate around here. Not trying to be negative, but perhaps your instructor is misleading you, or isn't a very good instructor. Or maybe he/she just has a different idea of what an intermediate rider should be able to do.

Back to keeping the horse in the trot. My daughter's gelding looks like he is easy to ride when she gets on. And frankly, I have ridden him and find him to be a dream to ride. But I've also seen a friend try to show him in a walk/trot class and it was a disaster. She had been taking lessons for years, but could not keep him straight, could not keep his head up, could not keep him on course, etc. 

What I'm trying to say is that your lesson horse may know very well how to maintain the trot, but you're not yet skilled enough to keep him there. So this is naturally frustrating to you. But there is a great lesson in here. Your job as a rider is to constantly be checking in on the horse, making sure it is doing what it's supposed to do, making sure it's bending correctly, on the right lead (at the canter - so not yet), making sure it has the right mixture of impulsion and control. It is going to be hard to keep this horse trotting, but your instructor is right: you just have to keep at it until the horse quits trying to get away with walking. 

Lesson horses can be very hard to ride. The great horses - like my daughter's show jumper - don't become lesson horses because they're too good to ruin by putting a bunch of beginners on them. But lesson horses are great teachers. 

Another aside: for years, my daughter rode this one horse at the lesson barn that everybody hated. This mare was slower than a turtle, and she had this cheat canter that was slower than some horses walk. Everyone would get so frustrated with this horse, but my daughter would get on, take out the crop, and wake up this mare! There was no more dragging or messing around after that. When she knew my daughter was on her, she looked like a different horse. On the other hand, my daughter also had to learn to ride very forward horses. And horses that refused jumps if you didn't push hard enough. Horses that took off like a bat out of hell. Horses that ran sideways, spooked straight up, came to an abrupt stop. She's conquered them all. I consider her an intermediate rider. She's been riding for 6 years. 

I grew up with horses, got into them again about four years ago, have been taking lessons since, w/t/c, not jumping yet (at least not on purpose). I would consider myself at best, on a good day, to be a beginner with some experience. Not that labels matter -- they vary too much to be a reliable guide. But it is possible that you just haven't acquired all the skills necessary to keep this horse in a trot, and that your instructor wants you to be able to do that. Keep at it. 1/4 circle will eventually turn into 1/2, then 3/4, then a full circle... at this point, you should be trotting for most of your lesson. So I would look at this as something you just need to master before moving onto the next step.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

In most riding schools here (London, UK - I've ridden many of the city riding schools) intermediate is broadly recognised as able to do the rising trot independently and learning to canter, thanks to the BHS the "horsey uk government" as I like to call it. Quite literally if you can trot - you are intermediate level. One of my friends was put in the advanced group as he can canter (terribly). It has made it VERY hard for him to adjust to the fact that in the REAL RIDING WORLD: he's a beginner, much like me. He, and his wife, continually moaned at how hard it is to keep a horse trotting...

...for a few reasons, actually. You want horses that aren't super sensitive to every accidental bash of the leg so while YOU are a quiet rider, not everyone else is. It can make trotting hard work ofc and YES you need to keep the leg on. I have to use a lot more leg for forward on riding school horses than my own, actually, for this reason - fantastic workout but can be very discouraging when you're learning. I am a soft rider so when I was learning to trot it took me a long time to realise that my idea of a lot of leg is nowhere near close to what it should have been. It was a shock when I realised that in riding you're using your legs 100x more than you SEE, because all the good riders manage to use leg and be quiet with it.

... ALSO by watching their struggles and remembering mine from years ago, remember posting requires a LOT of multitasking. You gotta be balanced, in rhythm and steer. Usually I've witnessed/experienced that when a rider is unable to do one of those things the horse either a. stops or b. bolts **** The upside is that if you can keep the horse going it means you are becoming a better rider. For example, the husband sits in a VERY chair seat. So the moment he starts posting he is struggling so much to keep his leg under him (balance) its impossible to squeeze the horse forward, in trot, while posting. And when he begins to try squeeze the horse forward he will lose his ability to steer. Really normal stuff when learning.

BUT @mmshiro is totally correct about the nagging thing. You should google about pressure and release in horses - it will help you understand how to communicate with any horse at any level. But that is often too much to think about and while I would prefer instructors to take their time and teach this concept, often they don't. One thing you absolutely must do hereon is 1. the moment your horse begins to THINK about slowing squeeze every time you sit. But don't nag - once its going nicely, leave it alone. You might need to squeeze a LOT your first few trots and 2. if the horse stops get LOUDER! Don't you dare give up and teach it bad manners! If the horse stops and you give up, look disparagingly at your instructor while contemplating your choices in life, the horse scores a point over you. Each time you let the horse get away with it the harder it is next time  You only leave the horse alone once it's trotting nicely - they are fast learners and want to do everything they can to get you to leave them alone and/or be quiet. You might be stop starting a lot and it'll look really ugly. You want a horse that you squeeze once and they'll trot an even pace until you ask them to stop? Cruise control style? Stop wanting. It's not gonna happen for a long time I'm afraid  If your personal goal is to keep the horse going forward at a trot try ask your instructor about your balance and even better, try get a video to post here for the other pro riders (not me) to help pinpoint EXACTLY where you're going wrong. No roasting here - we're all in the same boat.

Last note: in English riding a good instructor makes us sit the trot until we're begging to stop, actually. Because sitting trot is the key to all godlike transitions! 


Good luck! <3


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

@Acadianartist Omigosh that used to make me so ANGRY when my trainer would tell me it's rider error! But... it's a truth...


My guess in this case is that, it's a mixture of rider and horse. Lesson horses do tend to get away with what they can so if the rider isn't giving the right cues or maintaining the effort than the horse is going to take the opportunity to quit on you.


You need to give the horse the cue to trot but once he/she is moving forward - you don't just quit asking for it. You don't continue asking for it either - but you do maintain a certain pressure if that makes sense.


As for you needing and intermediate horse - I don't think you are quite an intermediate rider just yet.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Yes, Kalraii makes excellent points! Horses are not cars, it isn't just a matter of putting in gear and forgetting about it. A good rider may not look like he/she's doing much, but in reality, they're constantly checking in and keeping the horse at the right speed. A lot harder than it looks! After a 45-60 min. lesson (mostly trotting with a bit of walking and cantering), I am exhausted and my legs and abs are killing me.


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## mkmurphy81 (May 8, 2015)

I'm guessing it's both the horse and the rider. Let me give you an example.

One of my horses, Sunny, is a fat lazy mare who's great for beginner kids because, given the choice, she'll go slow. I can get on her and trot or lope without any problem. She does require more firm cues than my other horses, but I can certainly trot a full lap around the arena. There are two primary reasons for this. 1) I can read her mind. Only slightly kidding -- I can feel when she's about to break to a walk, and nudge her before she does. To an outsider, it looks like I'm doing nothing. 2) Sunny knows that she can't get away with much with me, so she doesn't try as often.

My 7 year old son loves riding Sunny. He's just learning to trot, and it's hard for him to keep Sunny going. He has the added disadvantage of short legs on a fat horse. He struggles with something that is second nature to me. Every time he rides, they both improve. He's learning to anticipate her tricks, and she's learning that he's too stubborn to give up.

I have found one trick that helps my son, but I don't know if it would work for you. My arena is tiny. It's about the size of two round pens. I can free lunge a horse in it. If I stand in the middle holding a lunge whip, my son has a much easier time making Sunny go. If I just point the whip in her general direction, she trots, so I can back up my son's cues.

If you think the problem may be your seat and balance, a lesson on the lunge line may help. That would allow you to focus on your position while your instructor controls the horse's speed and steering.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

To answer your question, some horses are used to constant aids to stay in gait. Some horses need only the slightest aid to change gaits and stay in gait until asked to change. Then there are all kinds of in-betweens. 

From your description, it sounds like you are a quiet (gentle aids) rider. That is very good and you might be one who would be described as a natural rider. 

I would not consider someone that cannot keep a horse trotting and has never cantered an intermediate rider. I do not say that to offend you, it is just you have not had the opportunity to advance higher than a beginner IMO. 

When I first started to learn Dressage (many years ago) I had already been riding for almost 15 years, jumping, barrel racing, western, trails, etc. Yet my first dressage instructor kept telling me I was not ready to canter yet on _my own horse_. 

After six months of feeling like I wasn't making any progress and wasn't understanding this whole dressage thing, I signed up for a clinic with another instructor and we did all three gaits and some lateral movements the very first lesson. 

That was the end of lessons with the first instructor for me. She had been holding me and my horse back. Within a year of changing instructors, I was competing and placing in the top five at every show. 

We cannot see over the internet what your lessons are like. It is impossible to assess your riding, the horses, or your instructor without video. But if you feel like you are not learning or progressing as you should, then maybe try a lesson at a different place. The instructor you are with now maybe good to begin with, but you might need a different place to progress more or even to just try different horses.


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## FreyaFoxtrot (Jul 19, 2016)

I pretty much agree with everything that's already been said  I've been back to riding for about 2 years now, and am starting over fences and still consider myself a beginner!


Are there other adult riders in your barn who ride the same horse? Would you be able to watch one of their lessons, and talk to them afterwards about how they keep the horse going? 



Recently I had a lesson where we were using some of the same horses that had been used in the previous beginner lesson. I took over from another rider, who I had been watching during his lesson and who could NOT get a trot out of this horse. They'd go for a couple strides (after the instructor helped urged the horse on), but the second the instructor stopped, the horse stopped. I really thought "Oh great, this'll be a fun ride..." but I had zero problems getting him going, and keeping him going, at the trot and the canter. I didn't even have to work very hard, but I think it's just that I'm more experienced now than that rider, and the horse knows it. Had I been riding this horse the year before, I probably wouldn't have been able to get a reaction out of him either as I just wasn't as fine-tuned to how I ask for transitions as I am now.


My only advice would be to make sure you're at a good, strong forward walk for a bit before you start working on your trot. Give them a bit of a squeeze, and you'll feel that little burst of energy, but don't let them just go back to a slow amble as soon as they feel your leg isn't on them anymore. If they're listening and already inclined to move forwards, the transition will be easier and then do the same thing at the trot. I probably haven't explained this nearly as well as others could, but I hope you get to the root of the issue soon!


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## millermwok (May 21, 2018)

Good info all, thanks.

I conclude what AnitaAnne said about trying another instructor with another horse. Hate to start anew but it seems to be the sure fire way of finding out what I feel I need to find out.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Some horses are lazy, it you don't keep them going with your cues (taking lessons will develop more of them), they will slow it down. That is a good safe horse for a novice rider, rather than a more forward horse. Best horse to learn on, you need to develop the "forward", then move on from there. "Do horses continue on in the same gait or do you have to keep asking". Yes you keep them going, you are actively riding the horse, your instructor will teach you more cues as you progress. Stick with it, you understand as you ride different horses.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Don't judge all horses by what you see in school horses. School horses have a special job and situation that usually makes them build up their 'self-preservation' skills greater than a non-school horse.

The school horse deals with people who are about to fall off at any moment, or who clutch and yank the reins, who flop around, grip with the leg, bump incessantly with the heels, . . . you name it. The horse HAS TO learn to tune out stuff, for his own sanity. 

So, he is tuning out your request to move one, and you are helping him by keeping the request monotonously unchanged.

If he won't listen to a polite ask with your leg and seat, then you need to wake him up with a smart smack of the crop! really smart, so you only have to do it once. After that, he will likely wake up and move, and then it's very important that you don't punish that by flopping, gripping, yank, bopping or other common behaviors of beginner riders. If you want him to act like an intermediate level horse, you will need to ride like an intermediate level rider, and that means minimal interference.

I think the fact that you are considering all this bodes well for your development as a rider. it's this complexity that makes riding and horses fascinating for a lifetime!


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## Spanish Rider (May 1, 2014)

Don't look at it as "starting anew". As riders, we never stop learning and every horse has something to teach us. You have only been riding 2 horses and need to experiment with others. Nothing wrong with that.

When I ride (except during cool down), I am having a constant conversation with my horse. Every. Single. Second. Hands, leg, seat, balance, weight, voice, turn of my head, turn of my shoulders, etc, and their synchronization is key. There will come a time in your riding when you develop light, quick aids, followed by releases for praise. As previously said, there are horses that you can set up and, if set up correctly, they will just go and go until you give another aid. Other horses, especially lesson horses, tend to be older, calmer, lazier and really quite clever. They know how to get out of working because you are not strong enough yet and your aids not swift enough yet (not a criticism - we have all been there). Then, there are other horses still who (like the horses I ride) get quite nervous and spooky if your aids are too far in between (like, "where did you go? are you still there? OMG, I'm all alone!"). The real challenge is finding the right sort of communication with each horse while intepreting their movements and predicting/feeling what they will do next (don't worry - it will all click some day).

What made a huge difference in my riding was when I realized that, as herd animals, horses always look to a leader. If you, as the rider, are not being a good leader, they will lead themselves. On a lazy school horse, that means they will do as little as they can get away with. On a hot horse, that means they will lose your respect and take over.

Again, we are all still learning. And most riders will tell you that the more we learn, the more we realize that there is so much left to learn. Enjoy the journey!


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

Generally speaking you should constantly be riding the horse. They aren't like a vehicle where you can press the gas pedal and it continues on on it's own until you tell it to do something else. Horses are not like that. You can't just ask them to trot and sit there with no further guidance and expect them to remain at that exact state until you ask for something else.

You should be letting them know what it is you are expecting and asking for. 

If you are considering getting a horse, I would honestly take a lot more lessons and work with your trainer to learn more about riding and become a more knowledgeable rider before venturing down the road of ownership. From the way you posted your thread, I feel like there are a lot of gaps in your knowledge that I think should maybe be filled first before looking further into that.


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## FreyaFoxtrot (Jul 19, 2016)

Spanish Rider said:


> When I ride (except during cool down), I am having a constant conversation with my horse. Every. Single. Second. Hands, leg, seat, balance, weight, voice, turn of my head, turn of my shoulders, etc, and their synchronization is key.


When I first started as a kid, I thought that once you get to be advanced, you never have to really ask anymore because you'd do it right the first time and then you could just sit there and enjoy the ride. But the exact opposite is true - when you're a beginner you tend to ask for something, they do it, and you just hold on and try to sit through the movements - it's once you get more advanced that you realise how constant of a conversation you have to have to maintain speed, direction, balance, etc. (though, as you mention, I have heard of these mythical horses that are so well trained with their human partners that they don't require too much of a touch).


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'll offer a perspective from someone who rides the same horse, now hitting the 3 year mark. When we are riding, there is a constant conversation going. TWO WAYS. It really isn't about "cues". He knows me. He knows how I think. What I like and don't like. And mostly, he responds based on...what? I'm not always sure. My daughter and I were riding the other day. She's been riding Trooper for 10 years. She was 10 when she started and is 20 now, and 95% of her riding has been on Trooper. Reins aren't used often. Neither is leg.

Our guess is that it has something to do with our balance, or some sort of feel. I can feel nervousness, relaxation, confidence, worry in Bandit. Something about his "expression" or his balance or how his back is moving. And Bandit is at least 10 times as aware of me as I am of him.

Not saying every ride is peace and harmony. But after 3 years of riding together, we mostly know what the other is thinking, including when the other is thinking obscenities. But if we're trotting down a trail, I sure don't think "Must keep him going!" We'll likely trot until the footing slows us down, and then we'll walk for a while.

When you ride a strange horse, or a horse who has a lot of riders, you use a lot of cues. When you are trail riding a horse you've spent years with, you ARE having a conversation. But it goes in both directions, and it isn't based on cues. Not the ones you find in books. Your balance, your enthusiasm, your energy creates a feel for him. And he gives you vibes back. You know his likes and dislikes. He knows yours. 

Riding a strange horse makes ME feel strange. My tension goes up. So does the horse's. We have to feel each other out. And I couldn't ride a highly trained horse. We'd be talking different languages.

As for advice: Make sure you aren't giving conflicting signals. Tension in your body can make the horse think you might fall, so slowing down would be good. Being unbalanced can cause a good horse to slow out of consideration for his rider. Unsteady hands getting in his mouth can tell the horse to slow even while your legs are saying to keep going - a frustrating experience for the horse.

When I thought my daughter was ready to canter, she mounted up on Trooper and asked him to canter. Gave the correct cues, again and again. He refused. Afterward, she told me she was still nervous about cantering and hadn't really wanted to. Trooper had responded to her WISHES, not her CUES. 

Some months later, we returned from a ride and they started cantering around the little arena. She told me afterward that she felt like it was time, so she gave a squeeze - and Trooper immediately shifted gears. Trooper isn't a refined horse, but he's a darn good one. 
















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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

millermwok said:


> Good info all, thanks.
> 
> I conclude what AnitaAnne said about trying another instructor with another horse. Hate to start anew but it seems to be the sure fire way of finding out what I feel I need to find out.


Yes, this is an option. It's a hard call, but my daughter did go through a number of instructors before finding the right one. We've now been working with the same coach for about 3 years. I've worked with three different ones myself. 

Sometimes, an instructor can only take you so far. But I feel like you're giving up before actually learning the lesson you need to learn here, which is how to keep a slow lesson horse in a trot. This is an important lesson. I think you should stay at least long enough to master this, and then move on if you still feel like it. Your instructor is right to insist that you get this though...


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## millermwok (May 21, 2018)

my2geldings said:


> If you are considering getting a horse, I would honestly take a lot more lessons and work with your trainer to learn more about riding and become a more knowledgeable rider before venturing down the road of ownership. From the way you posted your thread, I feel like there are a lot of gaps in your knowledge that I think should maybe be filled first before looking further into that.


You have opened up a whole new issue with that one  First, I _will_ be an owner, if only to trail ride and nothing more. I've made up my mind on that. The love is there too much. Then from a majority of the posts here, learning to ride is a life long process, so where within the life time to you say, yes, its time to get my own horse. Then, being 61 how many years do I have left to develop before being where it is that a person should be to take the plunge? {Rhetorical question only  ] 
It seems the only way to gain experience is with time in the saddle, and in my situation that only occurs when paying for lessons when an instructor happens to be available. So that does not add up to a lot of riding time any time soon. Unless you would say that un-instructed riding is actually a bad thing while still a novice? I would not buy unless I had a very experienced rider along with me to judge the animal and who knows where I am as far as riding level. And figure at some point if it performs ok for one rider unknown to the horse, then at some point it should for me, with proper education. Hopefully that is not unreasonable optimism.


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## 15 hands (Apr 18, 2018)

Yes the biggest thing is time in the saddle, miles. I don't think you are on the wrong track for wanting to try a different instructor. It's always beneficial to get pointers and instruction from multiple sources. How do you know if your current instructor is the best fit for you if you don't have anyone else to compare them to? Worst case you go to a different trainer for a bit and then come back to your original one. It will also be good for you to be on different horses. Its amazing how much you can learn from riding different horses. It keeps you on your toes more, gives you variety, and makes you a better "reader" of the horse and their cues. Sounds like you are dead set on buying a horse. My biggest piece of advice here is DON'T IMPULSE BUY! Go ride a bunch of horses and don't be afraid to get an older horse in their mid to late teens. Something broke broke broke. If you are going to mainly trail ride you want a horse that's been there done that but still has plenty of life left.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I started riding for real at 50. Get some help picking out the right horse - something I did NOT do, to my harm - and you can learn a lot trail riding with a friend. Learning to ride on lesson horses is different than learning to ride your own. People riding lesson horses often ask, "_How can I get him to go faster?_" People riding their own are more likely to ask, "_How can I get him to slow down?_"

A teen thinking about getting a horse is one thing. Too often, the teen will ride a year and then lose interest. But a mature adult who gets hooked is likely to stay hooked, and to have the finances to allow hiring a pro sometimes when problems come up - and they will come up! 

I bought a horse and then tried to learn to ride, largely by reading and trying to apply what I read. It was...problematic. The horse turned out to be a largely untrained Arabian mare from racing lines. Staying in one piece long enough to learn was tough, and one back injury in particular has hung with me. I owned her for 7 years. We learned a lot together. I also eventually DID hire a trainer to work with her 4 times a week for 2 months, then 2 times a week with both of us for 2 more months.

But when I had a chance to send her off to be a brood mare, I took it ( http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/mias-last-day-bsms-580473/#post7464529 ). Three years with her replacement - a Mustang/Arabian mix gelding from a racing background - has also had its ups and downs ( http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/bandit-cowboy-bsms-muddling-through-together-622121 ). Heck, the last line of today's post reads:

"Some days are diamonds. Some days are coal. Today was a coal day. Oh well. "​ 
But...I would never have become hooked on horses riding lesson horses. And in my 50s, I had the resources to hire help when needed (ok, sometimes AFTER it was needed). Talk it over with any local instructors. They can watch you ride and give better advice. Owning and riding your own horse is not an impossible goal. You've already taken more care than I did...


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## NCT (Mar 28, 2017)

I cant tell if you really need a new instructor but it shouldnt hurt to try lessons with others and see what you prefer.

Have you ever watched other students ride the same horses you have trouble keeping the trot going? My guess is its a combination of you and the horse. Lesson horses definately know how to take advantage of the less experienced!

My daughter is 12 and has been riding 3 years. For about a year she mostly rode a pony who was great to move up on because she had to ride him correctly to get him to do what she wanted. The number of times he ran her to the gate, ducked out of trot poles and cross rails... how many times she had to circle over and over to try to get a canter- she would get so frustrated with him. It's been over a year since she rode that pony regularly and since then she has been half leasing a horse that is not a beginner horse and she has learned quite a bit and grown taller and stronger. She schooled that pony last week and I laughed thinking how he is paying the price for all that laziness! He rides perfectly for her now. She gets leads changes, jumps, circles, canters as soon as she thinks about it... and when other kids cant get him over the jump she can climb on and make him do it. But she has put in a lot of of work to get to this point. 

What you are describing sounds very normal- keep at it! And I think its fine to get your own horse as long as you go in eyes wide open. You could also consider a lease if you cant one for sale find that suits you. Good luck!


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

millermwok-I admire you resilience in wanting to learn and get better. I would strongly recommend finding a trainer that you feel comfortable with and get to know and perhaps use that trainer to help you find a good horse to match your experience. From there that trainer can provide you with guidance through your journey.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

millermwok said:


> You have opened up a whole new issue with that one  First, I _will_ be an owner, if only to trail ride and nothing more. I've made up my mind on that. The love is there too much. Then from a majority of the posts here, learning to ride is a life long process, so where within the life time to you say, yes, its time to get my own horse. Then, being 61 how many years do I have left to develop before being where it is that a person should be to take the plunge? {Rhetorical question only  ]
> It seems the only way to gain experience is with time in the saddle, and in my situation that only occurs when paying for lessons when an instructor happens to be available. So that does not add up to a lot of riding time any time soon. Unless you would say that un-instructed riding is actually a bad thing while still a novice? I would not buy unless I had a very experienced rider along with me to judge the animal and who knows where I am as far as riding level. And figure at some point if it performs ok for one rider unknown to the horse, then at some point it should for me, with proper education. Hopefully that is not unreasonable optimism.


I had to laugh. Not AT you, but WITH you. Yes, loving horses is a special kind of crazy, and you're right in amongst the lunatics here. Three years ago, at age 45, I told my husband I'm building a barn, and buying horses. He thought I was crazy at first, but he knows me well enough to know that once I get something in my head it's not going away. We built it, they came, and my life has been amazing ever since. 

Do buy a horse. It's the most amazing, magical thing ever. But given your age and experience level, DO get help finding a truly safe, quiet mount because things can go south fast, and, well, you deserve to enjoy this! There will be times of frustration, but stack the deck in your favour so you have a better chance of enjoying your time in the saddle. And on the ground (honestly, I treasure those moments on the ground with my horses more than those moments in the saddle). 

You will keep learning, and you'll want to keep paying for lessons, even when you have your own horse. I do. To answer your question, yes, for a beginner to ride without instruction can be detrimental. You can learn all kinds of bad habits. But if you can get someone to give you a lesson a week on your own horse, or even every other week if you prefer, and practice what you worked on in between, you can still improve. Soak in all the knowledge you can because there will be a lot to learn. Sometimes it will feel overwhelming, but also so, so exciting. 

Try to get someone to agree to a trial with a horse so you can keep it for a month or so, ride it often, and decide if you're a good match. Or lease for a while, and maybe see if you can buy the horse outright if things are working out. 

Don't make the mistake of thinking that if you "just" want to trail ride, you don't really need a lot of coaching, or a well-trained horse. Trail riding is some of the most challenging riding you can do because anything can happen there. True, maybe no one will judge you if you get your diagonal wrong, but you have to be prepared to stay on in a spook, get a horse past a scary object, go through a variety of obstacles, deal with an unexpected injury/tack fail/aggressive dog... but find an instructor who understands your goals. That means you may not have to have perfect form and collection, but you do have to have a secure seat. 

Good luck, and do keep us in the loop! We love new horse/rider stories!


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

millermwok said:


> You have opened up a whole new issue with that one  First, I _will_ be an owner, if only to trail ride and nothing more. I've made up my mind on that. The love is there too much. Then from a majority of the posts here, learning to ride is a life long process, so where within the life time to you say, yes, its time to get my own horse. Then, being 61 how many years do I have left to develop before being where it is that a person should be to take the plunge? {Rhetorical question only  ]
> It seems the only way to gain experience is with time in the saddle, and in my situation that only occurs when paying for lessons when an instructor happens to be available. So that does not add up to a lot of riding time any time soon. Unless you would say that un-instructed riding is actually a bad thing while still a novice? I would not buy unless I had a very experienced rider along with me to judge the animal and who knows where I am as far as riding level. And figure at some point if it performs ok for one rider unknown to the horse, then at some point it should for me, with proper education. Hopefully that is not unreasonable optimism.



How many riding instructors/riding schools are there close to you? It can be a bad idea to shuffle around to much for consistency BUT... I have done a lot of instructor shopping and trials. You will KNOW when you have found an instructor that really cares about your progress. The difference is night and day. Some instructors just give vague advice and let you do your thing. In their mind you have the knowledge and now just need to practice. But that instructor approach, while not inherently bad, doesn't suit me - I like a boot up my a*** to remind me to keep trying, never give up, strive for a result. Are my heels not aligned? I want reminding every 10 seconds until I can do it in my sleep! Some learners are overly sensitive and easily patronised, and like being left alone to practice. Some instructors only care about the paycheck. 

Whatever the above... you now have the knowledge to make this horse trot.. be it understanding the WHY of his behaviour or the positions/techniques to double check for yourself. Every time you sit, squeeze the horse on. It's meant to be exhausting. And you will eventually own a horse where you can have it trained and continue it's training in being soft to the leg and hand. But right now this is your first real test. In ownership you're going to have a million of these tests day in and out and on the trail, going past spooky rocks and puddles. That horse is smart - he knows he can avoid doing work with you or is refusing to because he doesn't think you're ready yet (balance, rhythm etc). Imagine when a smart horse realises they can ignore your halt cue and gallop back home on the trail? Will you sell the smart horse that refuses to have it's cinch done up or refuses to be caught out in the field? Horses will get away with what we let them get away with (barring pain factors ofc). This is your first test. You are empowered with how to progress. I believe you can do this. The best part is the horse is the most honesty you're gonna get - he'll tell you soon enough if what you're doing is correct long before an instructor opens his or her mouth! xD

However, it would be prudent to get a second opinion on your technique and position. Just once you find somewhere that clicks - yo'll know. I hope you find it soon!


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## millermwok (May 21, 2018)

Well, this is truly an unending process. So now that I am getting some agreement with my conviction on buying, there is another point that to me anyway is a little counterintuitive.
It seems the conventional wisdom is to "buy a horse that matches your skill level". That comment was mentioned in this thread. So why the heck is that? I compare it to playing tennis. If I only play with someone at my own level, then I will never improve. So why does the universe explode if you have a horse better trained than yourself? Wouldnt a good instructor say.... This horse is capable of doing (this or that), so here is what YOU need to do in order take advantage of it. In other words how to you advance further if the horse is not that advanced? Maybe I have worded the question in an unknowledgable way, probly so, but thats why I am here and appreciate all yall that are here.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

When you are advised to only buy a horse that matches your skill level, think of it in reverse. You are a IMO very beginner rider. That means you need a very experienced horse. That trail horse you want needs to be at least 10 years old (mature) and bomb-proof. One of you needs to know what they are doing, or you will wind up in the hospital. 

Green rider (beginner) + Green Horse = ICU 

Riding horses is not like tennis, it is more like driving. Would you buy a 6 year old child a race car thinking that the child will "grow into it"? The kid doesn't even know how to drive...


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

millermwok said:


> Well, this is truly an unending process. So now that I am getting some agreement with my conviction on buying, there is another point that to me anyway is a little counterintuitive.
> It seems the conventional wisdom is to "buy a horse that matches your skill level". That comment was mentioned in this thread. So why the heck is that? I compare it to playing tennis. If I only play with someone at my own level, then I will never improve. So why does the universe explode if you have a horse better trained than yourself? Wouldnt a good instructor say.... This horse is capable of doing (this or that), so here is what YOU need to do in order take advantage of it. In other words how to you advance further if the horse is not that advanced? Maybe I have worded the question in an unknowledgable way, probly so, but thats why I am here and appreciate all yall that are here.


Ok, so I think it would be useful to clarify what people mean by a horse at your level. This doesn't mean a beginner horse. Quite the contrary. You want a very well-broke, well-trained horse so you can focus on continuing to learn about position, balance, gaits, etc. To put a beginner on a young, barely-broke horse is a disaster waiting to happen because neither knows what they're doing. So in that sense, yes, you're better off with a well-trained horse (like a good tennis player). 

That said, you don't want to get in over your head. You wouldn't put a kid learning to drive for the first time in a Ferrarri. A horse that is steady and reliable is best. You don't want a horse that is like a bomb waiting to go off, but a horse that has been ridden by other beginner riders. That doesn't mean your horse can't be a good jumper, roper, trail horse, or whatever you want to do. But it has to be a horse that has seen a few things, been down a few different roads, and isn't easily fazed by someone who may not have perfect riding skills yet. 

Some horses are hypersensitive to cues, for example, which is great if you're doing very fine-tuned riding and need your horse to stop on a dime, or launch out of a gate. Not so good if you haven't yet acquired the skill level and muscle memory needed to keep your leg completely independent of your seat and hands. Accidentally jiggling your leg on that horse might mean you will suddenly feel like a jockey in the Kentucky Derby. 

So you want somewhere between deadhead lesson horse, and well-trained, knows the cues, but is fairly forgiving horse.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

IMO you are not ready to buy a horse, and I would advise strongly against purchasing a horse until you can ride one all three gaits walk/trot/canter (lope) out on the trails. 

Think of it like driving a car; you are still in first gear and are not able to shift to the higher gears and still control the car. Cars don't have a brain, horses do. They will make decisions too that may not be what you want. 

Go take some lessons at a few other places and see if you have the skills yet to control a horse. Any instructor will be able to advise you when you are capable of riding on your own.


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## NCT (Mar 28, 2017)

millermwok said:


> Well, this is truly an unending process. So now that I am getting some agreement with my conviction on buying, there is another point that to me anyway is a little counterintuitive.
> It seems the conventional wisdom is to "buy a horse that matches your skill level". That comment was mentioned in this thread. So why the heck is that? I compare it to playing tennis. If I only play with someone at my own level, then I will never improve. So why does the universe explode if you have a horse better trained than yourself? Wouldnt a good instructor say.... This horse is capable of doing (this or that), so here is what YOU need to do in order take advantage of it. In other words how to you advance further if the horse is not that advanced? Maybe I have worded the question in an unknowledgable way, probly so, but thats why I am here and appreciate all yall that are here.


Playing tennis doesnt typically come with a risk of serious injury or worse.
Again, my kids started riding age 8/9. Her first love was a very chill TB gelding who all the kids loved and he was an super safe fun ride for them. He was also favored by the adults who wanted to canter fast and jump. He was the best lesson horse ever- completely appropriate for both beginners and more advanced riders.

And realize, many riders never really progress past advanced beginner/intermediate levels which is completely ok. You dont have to have an advanced horse to enjoy riding! But you need a safe horse to enjoy riding.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

The lessons are also about building a relationship that can lead you to that solid horse that is right for YOU. As has been said green + green = ICU. Green + flawlessly trained live wire also = ICU. Learn the basics. Ride a few different horses then start looking. Who knows maybe your (maybe new) instructor loves to trail in off hours and could become a riding buddy. Nothing I have learned in the ring has gone to waste.


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## millermwok (May 21, 2018)

Got it! Off to reply to a few horse ads


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

millermwok said:


> Well, this is truly an unending process. So now that I am getting some agreement with my conviction on buying, there is another point that to me anyway is a little counterintuitive.
> It seems the conventional wisdom is to "buy a horse that matches your skill level". That comment was mentioned in this thread. So why the heck is that? I compare it to playing tennis. If I only play with someone at my own level, then I will never improve. So why does the universe explode if you have a horse better trained than yourself? Wouldnt a good instructor say.... This horse is capable of doing (this or that), so here is what YOU need to do in order take advantage of it. In other words how to you advance further if the horse is not that advanced? Maybe I have worded the question in an unknowledgable way, probly so, but thats why I am here and appreciate all yall that are here.


that is an interesting viewpoint. 

The thing is, we are constantly training and retraining our horses. So, if we are an utter beginner, and we buy a very highly trained horse, our riding will soon dull out the training on the horse. The horse will drop back to meet us, in some respects. I guess you could say, "great, he'll come back to my level and carry me forward". H m m . . . . in a way, as long as YOU continue to progress, since a green rider can't get the best out of a horse, normally.,

However, on others, in particular, where general handling and safety are concerned, the horse's dropping back to meet our own 'green' level of training creates a dangerous situation. We want , as AnitaAnn said, a horse that is pretty settled and gentle. Even THAT horse will lose those good manners if YOU don't continue to reinforce them.

REally, it's about how YOU progress that is more important, especially if your goal is trail riding and relaxation and fun.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

millermwok said:


> Got it! Off to reply to a few horse ads


Just be aware, it is a lot harder to sell a horse than it is to buy one. 

I think the most foolish thing you could do is go buy a horse when you can't keep a horse in second gear (trot) and have never ridden third gear (canter/lope) and never even considered forth gear (gallop). 

There is an old saying that a fool and his money are soon parted...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Don't confuse experienced and level-headed with a lazy plodder!

Cowboy and Trooper are both experienced, level-headed horses. They are not refined, ie, they don't know a lot of cues and heaven help someone who tried to frame them up and exercise "body control" on them. Both can and will haul butt if it makes sense. 

Sane horses can be very enthusiastic, very responsive and very forward. A plodder can be reactive and explode at the wrong time or for the wrong reasons.

What you don't need - speaking from experience, since one was my first horse - is an extremely sensitive horse. One who is INTENSELY aware of everything, including you. A very good rider can get excellent results from a horse like that. People like me find it like doing surgery with chainsaws...

My horses are "average" horses. An average horse can be an excellent friend on a trail ride. An average horse can still run fast and turn hard. Lots of people have been left behind when their "average" horse spooked, and they couldn't stay on what their average horse was capable of offering.

A sane, confident and forward horse is a joy on a trail. That isn't a level that a person outgrows. 

If you want your horse to know more cues, teach him. He's YOUR horse. If you own a horse, YOU are responsible for the horse he becomes. No excuses. If he is getting 'worse', YOU need to help him. If he is getting 'better' - great! I find myself setting training goals - both for me and my horse - every ride. When you own your own horse, every ride IS a training ride. To own a horse is to accept lifelong responsibility for his training. Having people around who can support you along the way is critical.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

millermwok said:


> Well, this is truly an unending process. So now that I am getting some agreement with my conviction on buying, there is another point that to me anyway is a little counterintuitive.
> It seems the conventional wisdom is to "buy a horse that matches your skill level". That comment was mentioned in this thread. So why the heck is that? I compare it to playing tennis. If I only play with someone at my own level, then I will never improve. So why does the universe explode if you have a horse better trained than yourself? Wouldnt a good instructor say.... This horse is capable of doing (this or that), so here is what YOU need to do in order take advantage of it. In other words how to you advance further if the horse is not that advanced? Maybe I have worded the question in an unknowledgable way, probly so, but thats why I am here and appreciate all yall that are here.


Buying a horse to grow WITH is great. It's not uncommon to get to a certain level of training, sell that horse and buy "one up" so to speak. Playing tennis can't kill you _easily_- the ball does not have a brain and wont intentionally aim to smack you in the head with enough force to end your life like a grumpy or scared horse can. There is a reason we don't let 3 year olds iron their own clothes or get kids to light the fire... just because I want to be a surgeon doesn't mean I should start practising on live people in my backyard with the mere argument of "I'm too good for medical school". 

Also you've missed the point about get a horse on your level... you're not even yet on the level of the arabian school horse and probably nowhere near, for a while. You can't even get it to trot. You came here asking for help in figuring out WHY you couldn't get it to trot. There are some very smart teenagers out there. But these same smart teenagers that will go on to be extraordinary scientists and discoverers and politicians.. these SAME teenagers, do the dumbest things on the planet like put forks in microwaves, forget to wash and shout at their parents. A horse is like a smart teenager. You think that just because they are smart.. that they're gonna listen to you? Yeah, right. For a teenager to listen to you they have to respect you and to respect you you have to demonstrate your own experience and knowledge. Right now your experience and knowledge is pea sized. A schoolie wont even trot for you ... get on a grand prix horse (a super smart teenager) you think they're going to be an easier ride? If you ask with bad cues you're gonna get a bad response. You eat spicey food you're gonna resent it the next day. You ride a horse above your level with the wrong type of temperament... you _can _get killed. 

I really wish that you're a lucky one and don't end up injured. Know that anything here isn't meant to be offensive but we try to look out for each other's safety and it sometimes means hearing truths we'd rather not. I want you to have a good time and learn but don't get too ahead of yourself. Remember, the tortoise won the race.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Buying a horse is easy, keeping and caring as well as riding, takes experience and skill.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If owning a horse and riding it was as difficult as some make out, requiring years of lessons...lots of folks in the west would never have ridden or owned a horse. Basic riding and basic, reasonable care of horses isn't that tough. It isn't cheap, but it isn't an overwhelming burden for an adult who knows how to budget.

There are horses who need an experienced owner. Mia was one, although she had to put up with me for 7 years. Other horses I've owned - Lilly, Trooper, Cowboy, Annie - all had minor issues, but nothing that couldn't be handled by hiring a pro to help for those specific, short-term issues.

Lilly had not been ridden when we bought her. We hired a pro to 'break her'. Then my total beginner 10 year old daughter rode her in lessons, and I rode her without lessons. Very green Arabian mare. Total newbie riders. And Lilly was great. Lilly & Trooper eventual developed issues between them. Without the room to deal with both of them at home, one had to go. I lost the vote and Lilly went.

In spite of it all, no one ever came off Lilly. Lilly spooked hard enough to run across a neighbor's yard - once. The lady who bought her still owns her. Last I heard, she was viewed as a fine trail horse. Part of the wonder of horses is the number of fundamentally nice, willing horses that exist.

The OP is an adult. He has at least one instructor available. He isn't comfortable with keeping a lesson horse in a trot. Honestly, neither would I with a lot of lesson horses. The methods discussed on this thread are totally foreign to how I ride. If I needed to constantly press my horse to stay trotting, pressing him and pushing him every stride, I'd simply stop trotting! If the horse is that reluctant...maybe he's tired. Maybe his back is sore. Maybe he is bored out of his skull. Maybe the rocks are punishing his feet. Maybe the horse, like me jogging a few weeks ago, hurt his foot. There is no outward sign of injury to MY foot, but it still aches a couple of weeks after my running shoe clad foot hit a rock.

Maybe he's "lazy". When I go jogging, I sometimes get "lazy" too. Two days ago, I limped the last mile home. I was feeling light-headed, and when you feel light-headed exercising under the Arizona sun, stop exercising! You'll live longer.

If lessons are about ignoring the horse's wishes, and pushing him to do things he really has no desire to do, then maybe taking lessons is counterproductive to learning how to ride WITH your horse instead of ON him?

No, it isn't always sweetness and unending light between me and my horses. And yes, I do a lot of just putzing around on a horse. Maybe my goals are somewhat attainable largely because I set them so low.

But if years of lessons are needed before someone can buy and ride a horse, almost none of the riders I've met would have ever ridden. I didn't get hooked on riding at 50 by taking years of lessons. I got hooked by trying to figure out what my horses were thinking, and how to stay on them while they were thinking it.

I have no idea what the OP should do. Never met him. Never seen him ride. But here is something to think about. The guy riding in the picture below never had a single lesson. He's never done a single lap in an arena. The horse is half-Arabian and half-Appy.








​


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

bsms "If owning a horse and riding it was as difficult as some make out, requiring years of lessons...lots of folks in the west would never have ridden or owned a horse. Basic riding and basic, reasonable care of horses isn't that tough. It isn't cheap, but it isn't an overwhelming burden for an adult who knows how to budget."


This^^^ but what I see is that too many dive right in to the deep end and think they are prepared because they rode a pony ride at the zoo when they were 2. Exaggeration on my part there but KWIM. The horses would be better placed and the owners better able to handle their purchase if they had the basics. I hear a lot of "how hard can it be?" I had a dog (cat, fish, hamster) once.... It's also the non tangibles that you get with lessons - the instant network, the friendships you build and the outside the ring activities that go along with those things. Sure not everybody has that but most would benefit from something rather than nothing. 



When I moved here we had a neighbor that decided her kids needed a horse because they were missing out by not having one. All you have to do is let it eat the grass and maybe top the five gallon bucket you left out in the rain so the horse had at least something to wash down his greens. Right? They had that baby (18month old) saddled and were "riding" it in no time. 3 months later the ASPCA was involved as it was nothing but a saddle sored rack of ribs that had tried to go through the chain link enclosure (backyard) ripping through it's chest. A few lessons and some guidance might have prevented the tragedy but you can't fix cheap or stupid. Now I know not everyone is that extreme but there are too many out there that get in way over their heads and would now be happy (or happier) horse owners with the basics under their belts instead of the idea that pretty ponee with the sparkle fairy dust billowing all around and peppermint breath can be sat on the shelf when (G) you decide you are done. No, it doesn't take years of lessons to putz around but time with an instructor is never wasted if the instructor is worth her salt and you have their expertise and guidance when you do decide to take the plunge.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

I agree with the others who said that if you have not yet cantered you're not an intermediate rider. Beginner riders learn to move at all three gaits, crappily. Intermediate riders start to finesse those gaits and work on more difficult things. Advanced riders can ride most anything and can do it well. At least that's how I see it, and since I'm not part of any pony club or anything like that feel free to take my words well salted!

I personally hate riding a horse that I'm constantly having to keep reminding to stay in gait. When I tell you to trot, I want you to trot until I say otherwise, not trot for three strides and decide to walk. I also hate it when I constantly need to bring him back down too. Trot means trot, not lope. On lazy horses I will stop asking after a while, and start demanding. I will squeeze with my calf, and if that doesn't work, I will cluck or kiss to him, and if that doesn't work, I will spank gently from side to side with the end of my rein or saddle strings, increasing the pressure until he moves. If I have to do this on an otherwise well trained horse, after the 4th or 5th time I will squeeze with my leg, and if that doesn't work, I will spank HARD. I will ask gently with my leg, and if he doesn't move off that leg he's getting the tail of the mecate on his belly. When I put my leg on a horse, I want that horse to move NOW. Not three strides from now, not when he feels like it, NOW. 

The horse has 23 hours a day to lay around and do whatever he wants. When I'm riding him, he will do what I ask. I will of course never ask too much of him, and I will never get him into anything he can't handle, but I demand that he at least try to do as I ask. Moving forward off my leg is something any horse can do, and I demand that he move off when I ask. 

-- Kai


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

QtrBel said:


> When I moved here we had a neighbor that decided her kids needed a horse because they were missing out by not having one. All you have to do is let it eat the grass and maybe top the five gallon bucket you left out in the rain so the horse had at least something to wash down his greens. Right? They had that baby (18month old) saddled and were "riding" it in no time. 3 months later the ASPCA was involved as it was nothing but a saddle sored rack of ribs that had tried to go through the chain link enclosure (backyard) ripping through it's chest. A few lessons and some guidance might have prevented the tragedy but you can't fix cheap or stupid. Now I know not everyone is that extreme but there are too many out there that get in way over their heads and would now be happy (or happier) horse owners with the basics under their belts instead of the idea that pretty ponee with the sparkle fairy dust billowing all around and peppermint breath can be sat on the shelf when (G) you decide you are done. No, it doesn't take years of lessons to putz around but time with an instructor is never wasted if the instructor is worth her salt and you have their expertise and guidance when you do decide to take the plunge.





I don't get the feeling the OP will be anything like this kind of owner. not at all.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

No, and I agree with you but we all tend to generalize and I was responding more to bsms's opening statement that I quoted. That was an extreme example of someone that would have benefited from lessons before ownership.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

The OP has been taking lessons for NINE months and still can't trot a horse around in a circle? 

Obviously something is very wrong here!! NINE months and can't keep a horse trotting? Did anyone ever pop the horse? 

Buying a horse would be the worst answer in this case, as we have no idea if it is the rider, the horse, or the instructor! 

Or as I suspect, *both the rider and the instructor* as *neither one can make the horse GO*.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

millermwok said:


> So after all that said, guess my question is do horses generally willingly keep the same gait going until you queue them to slow, or is it not unusual to have to continually, and I do mean continually, ask that they keep it going?


A lot of horses, and I mean quite a few will relax as soon as you do. 

What happens if you relax your foot on the gas pedal in your vehicle? With horses like this, you are basically getting the same thing. 

One of the best Reining horses I've ever ridden will literally break to a walk as soon as you relax your leg (calf) pressure on him. He will stop if you take your legs off completely. 

Lesson horses also learn to tune out new riders. There are a handful of "cues" going on all the time with a new rider. Your hands, your weight, your voice, your flappy legs, your heels bouncing on him. 

Be clear and concentrate on telling the horse to do one thing at a time. Remember that your whole body including your hips, weight distribution etc are a cue.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

With riding school horses (and ponies) it is vital hat they have utmost respect for the instructor. A total novice rider, particularly an adult, will probably need assistance in keeping a horse at a certain gait, this is where the instructor should be there to help. 

I always, with novice riders in the arena, carried a lunge whip, of the horse was being lazy or not doing his job correctly I would crack it just to remind them that I was in charge. I had no need to use it just show it and they behaved correctly.

Secondly, I always found it far easier to take novice riders out and about. The rider wouldn't have the problem of trying to keep the horse going, corners coming up or trying to keep on a circle. This a) allows the rider to relax more b) relaxation allows for them to find their natural balance, c) the horse will keep going more easily and because of this allow the rider to get 'the feel'. 

on returning to the arena the rider understands what is wanted.


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## millermwok (May 21, 2018)

Dont recall if it was this thread or elsewhere, but one rider remarked she had been with an instructor for 3 years and was told she wasnt ready to canter yet. (Instructor "milking" her?) She went to another school and with 1 or 2 lessons was doing 3 gaits. SO was she then ready to buy at that point? There are a lot of generalizations here and I guess without knowing ALL the details of a person's situation thats all that can be done. I have to wonder if someone is overestimating their ability to assume they could keep ANY lesson horse at a gait unless they had tried the specific horse in question. Maybe some can, but I dont know that everyone could. I dont think that should exclude them from owning and enjoying their own horse that isnt a deadened school horse.
And while "riding" includes the ability to keep a horse at a gait, it also I think must include learning balance, keeping the head up, heels down, whatever, and that only comes with mileage. And if you arent getting mileage from a horse not sure how you get those other things. So I see no harm in checking out horses for sale along with a trainer. I dont expect the perfect one is going to surface immediately. That will give me time to take lessons elswehere ( already have one booked as of yesterday) and see what that reveals. And bide my time for a while yet. It could be that that one or two lessons, just like that lady I mentioned above, I will be cantering or loping and loving it. Maybe then I will have more opinion on "my side" about owning sooner rather than later (appreciated concerns about safety not withstanding).


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## NCT (Mar 28, 2017)

Work with your trainer to find a horse you like and that is both suitable for you now and can still grow with you. Continue to work with a trainer to keep the horse trained. Thats the hard part- you get a horse and typically it needs to be ridden often and ridden well to stay safe and trained. Taking lessons and working with a trainer is usually a key part of this. 

Good luck! People are nervous when they hear a beginner rider wants to get a horse because you hear so many stories of people not getting an appropriate horse for their skill level and/or not continuing with lessons and it not ending well for the rider or horse or both. But it doesnt always end that way obviously!


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

millermwok said:


> Dont recall if it was this thread or elsewhere, but one rider remarked she had been with an instructor for 3 years and was told she wasnt ready to canter yet. (Instructor "milking" her?) She went to another school and with 1 or 2 lessons was doing 3 gaits. SO was she then ready to buy at that point? .


That was me. Slight correction though, I took lessons from the first instructor for 6 months before changing. 

I was already an experienced rider and did not understand why she thought I wasn't ready. 

The lessons were on my own horse, who I cantered easily when the instructor wasn't there. 

I was trying to learn a different style of riding, so was not knowledgeable enough about dressage to realize she was not experienced enough to teach me, and probably did not have the skills needed to teach anyone. 

Once I took one lesson with an experienced Dressage instructor, I realized that my first Dressage instructor did not have enough knowledge to teach me and my horse. 

Lack of knowledge was why she was holding me back, not because she was trying to "milk me". 



millermwok said:


> I have to wonder if someone is overestimating their ability to assume they could keep ANY lesson horse at a gait unless they had tried the specific horse in question. Maybe some can, but I dont know that everyone could. I dont think that should exclude them from owning and enjoying their own horse that isnt a deadened school horse.
> .


I know I could keep any lesson horse trotting in a full circle within 5 minutes of getting on the horse. But, I have been riding a lot of different horses for a lifetime, so have the experience and the confidence to adjust my riding to many different horses. 

If the rider can't keep a horse going, as many beginners can't, that is when an *experienced instructor will intervene* if the rider is ready to go faster, and pop the horse to help the new rider. 

I would question the qualifications of any instructor that has a student that can't trot a horse in nine months of instruction! 

I have seen BLIND riders and DEAF riders independently doing walk trot and canter with ground assistance. It was a humbling experience for me to watch them...



millermwok said:


> So I see no harm in checking out horses for sale along with a trainer. I dont expect the perfect one is going to surface immediately. That will give me time to take lessons elswehere ( already have one booked as of yesterday) and see what that reveals. And bide my time for a while yet. It could be that that one or two lessons, just like that lady I mentioned above, I will be cantering or loping and loving it. Maybe then I will have more opinion on "my side" about owning sooner rather than later (appreciated concerns about safety not withstanding).



Taking lessons with a different instructor can only help you understand your strengths and weaknesses. Always good to get a different perspective. 


It is very hard to find a horse that suits you when you have very little knowledge. Taking along a trainer helps, but make sure the trainer has enough knowledge to guide you. (if is your first instructor, I have my doubts that they can accurately judge your skill level)


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Will add that the horse I was riding in these lessons was one that I had bought for my (then) husband. He rode this mare out on the trails every Sunday for two years. I kept her exercised during the week along with my horse and the kids' ponies. 


Well one day we took the mare and my gelding to a friend's to ride. My husband was riding along when another rider jumped her horse. For some reason this scared the mare and she tossed my husband. So he would not ride her anymore. So now I had two horses entirely mine to ride and no more trail partner! 


I was looking for something to do with this mare who was very athletic and decided to try some Dressage. She was up until this time just a western trail horse...


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## millermwok (May 21, 2018)

A footnote: I took a couple lessons with a different teacher at a different farm. (and thankfully obviously another horse) I did exactly what I did previously and lo and behold the horse was willing to go and I could maintain. (it was a little stubborn in direction sometimes but I can handle that). Then I found a Youtube of a horse trainer demonstrating what an unresponsive horse it like. And there it was, the very definition of the kind of horse at the first school that is nothing but frustration. She demonstrated on the video the type of relearning and re-teaching that it takes to make an unresponsive horse responsive again. And it took patience and horse training experience to even begin getting the horse to walk, let alone a faster gait. A beginners riding lesson should NOT be about trying to train (or re-train) a horse IMO. That is a whole nother skill set all together IMO. So with the second teacher I was cantering the first hour. No big deal, though I do need additional time at the gait to get more accustomed to the balance needed. Something that aint going to happen with a dead head unresponsive lesson horse. 
I also have bought (pending the PPE) a sweet Paint/Arab cross gelding, 14 yo, calm temper, W/T/C and willing jumper (not me jumping yet) who was very happy to gait at what I asked for. I think this may be called an honest horse if I understand the use of the word. I am so anxious to get this guy home, but I admit in the back of my mind I ask myself what if this guy were to start shutting down on me. But I can not let that come across to the horse. So this opens up a whole nother thread for me - what is the ideal process and steps in bringing home a horse to new surroundings. From the minute he gets off the trailer to the point where in the arena/trails it is like we have been there for years.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Perseverance….horses should be fun! Sounds like you have had success by changing trainers. Sometimes we have to do that to progress. 

I Would be interested to see the YouTube video you referenced if you would put the link to it on here.


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## millermwok (May 21, 2018)

here ya go..... enjoy






note her first comment "This horse would not go forward at all, even with a crop or whip." 
So I got a little annoyed with some posts telling me that I should be keeping a horse at a trot, or whatever, without the poster knowing that my lesson horse wasnt too much better than the one in this video. And no one is re-training it like this lady is able to do. And as I said, I dont think the point of a beginner riding lesson should be what this trainer is having to do just to get a walk!


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## millermwok (May 21, 2018)

here ya go. Now tell me - if you were starting out with a lesson horse not too much better than the one in this video, whose "fault" is it that you werent progressing fast enough?
I think a beginner riding lesson should be about training the rider, not a beginner having to know how to (re)train a horse. IMO Or else I should be charging the farm for retraining their horse


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