# Grey and creme gene question!



## BlackCricket (Oct 20, 2011)

Think of it this way. Grey covers ANY color. That includes dilute colors--creams, pearls, silvers, duns... It's the mask all! So you can have a cream that went grey. I know of a few. You can also have double dilute cremes that are grey (impossible to tell by looking at them for the most part)


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Grey is the ultimate color eraser. 

You will still have the same colors underneath, but grey covers them.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Grays can start out as any color. The gray gene is more like an "oh, and by the way..." type thing. "Yay, congrats on that beautiful buckskin/palomino foal....Oh, and by the way, they will be turning gray within the next couple of years" LOL.

My mustang, Dobe, was a buckskin when he was captured as a 2 year old (according to his papers anyway) and now he's just as gray as he can be.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Also rose gray isn't actually a specifix type of gray, it's just a name given to a particular stage of gray. Rose grays don't stay the mix of base color and gray they are, they will contimue to gray out until entirely gray.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

smrobs said:


> Grays can start out as any color. The gray gene is more like an "oh, and by the way..." type thing. "Yay, congrats on that beautiful buckskin/palomino foal....Oh, and by the way, they will be turning gray within the next couple of years" LOL.


That's a great way to explain it! 

I look at it like the horse is born any "regular" color, and then if they inherit the gene for gray, they will turn gray. But your way of saying it is better. :lol:

The only thing I am fuzzy on, is grays normally have dark skin, correct? So what happens if you have something like a double dilute that also inherits gray? What color skin do they have? Eye color? Do they still look like a double dilute, or does the gray "trump" that and give them darker eyes and skin? Or do you just have a creme with bright white hair once they are "gray" but still has light eyes and pink skin?

What made me think of this, is that they say if you have a chestnut foal, they will normally be born with light skin (and it turns darker shortly). But if your chestnut foal is born with dark skin (and of course has a gray parent) being born with darker skin will be a sign they will turn gray.

So I wonder what "gray" will do to a double dilute, a horse that would normally have lighter skin?


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Though I have not seen one personally, I would assume gray on a double dilute would retain its pink skin. If it didn't have pink skin, then it would be something other than a double dilute.

This summer, I saw a horse we figured to be araloosa. He was gray and the only indicators of appy in him were his striped hooves, sclera, and mottled skin on his face. Then he got wet in the rain one day and we found out he used to have a blanket. The skin differences were entirely obvious once his hair was wet, but when he was dry, his body was just white.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

PS. I would say pinto patterns would be the ultimate color eraser, because they erase even better than gray. In other words, you can have a gray pinto and it will still have dark pigment where there are not spots, but anywhere the pinto markings are, even gray is erased. So pinto is the ultimate color eraser, especially in the extreme forms. 

For instance, an extreme sabino would be nearly white with pink skin. So sabino erases better than gray because it also erases skin pigment. Hmm. I think I am mixing apples and oranges, but in my strange way of thinking it makes sense. 

Pinto acts similar to gray, only different. Congrats on your beautiful palomino. It's also an extreme sabino so you won't see much of the palomino, lol! :lol:


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Poseidon said:


> Though I have not seen one personally, I would assume gray on a double dilute would retain its pink skin. If it didn't have pink skin, then it would be something other than a double dilute.
> 
> This summer, I saw a horse we figured to be araloosa. He was gray and the only indicators of appy in him were his striped hooves, sclera, and mottled skin on his face. Then he got wet in the rain one day and we found out he used to have a blanket. The skin differences were entirely obvious once his hair was wet, but when he was dry, his body was just white.


Really neat about the Araloosa. 

And hmm, gray on a double dilute is something interesting to ponder! Maybe you couldn't even tell it was a gray, but the hair would still turn white eventually. So maybe it would look like an extra-bright double dilute? 

Or, maybe it would look more like a gray, but test genetically as a double-dilute w/gray. In other words, phenotype would not match genotype?


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Double dilutes give off a more creamy color than the usual bright white of grays, so I think the differences might be noticeable, but only to a trained eye. 

FWIW, there was another gelding that was gray, but had very large blaze that extended to one eye, making it blue. If you looked close enough, you could see the edges of the blaze. From a distance, he too just appeared to be white.


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## BlackCricket (Oct 20, 2011)

I found a double dilute grey online a few years back, I'll see if I can't dig him back up if he's even still standing at stud or anything. They had a big warning on his page that he was a double creme dilute that was heterozygous for grey as well...lol He looked like a normal double dilute...pink skin and blue eyes


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

Gahhhh. I really hate the grey gene. It's like a giant middle finger to all those people (like myself) who have to deal with white horses and lots of red dirt. XD

I was super excited when my mare had her filly. She was a bright little chesnut, then she shedded out into a daaark chesnut. Then winter came, and I started seeing little grey hairs..sigh. She is really pretty though, when her coat doesn't get sun bleached!

I always thought of the pinto pattern as just bleach. Especially the overo pattern, they look like they got bleach splattered all over them!


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## kywalkers2012 (Oct 25, 2011)

It's very possible to have a buckskin that goes grey. We had one once. She was a buckskin that was going grey. Her mom was a palomino show horse that the neighbor's rascally grey with black base stallion snuck over the fence and got. She was the prettiest thing, actually. One day she looked buckskin and the next you could tell she was grey. Two of my favorite colors.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

what would be cool is a cremello foal with blue eyes who turned grey, so instead of the creamy looking mane and white body it would be completely WHITE within a few years with blue eyes.. only annoying thing is telling non horsie people NO he isn't albino!


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Poseidon said:


> Double dilutes give off a more creamy color than the usual bright white of grays, so I think the differences might be noticeable, but only to a trained eye.
> 
> FWIW, there was another gelding that was gray, but had very large blaze that extended to one eye, making it blue. If you looked close enough, you could see the edges of the blaze. From a distance, he too just appeared to be white.


Yep in the sun my colt looks like a pearl.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

lilkitty90 said:


> what would be cool is a cremello foal with blue eyes who turned grey, so instead of the creamy looking mane and white body it would be completely WHITE within a few years with blue eyes.. only annoying thing is telling non horsie people NO he isn't albino!


Oh yea I hate that and the white plus blue eyes means he's deaf....lol if I had a quarter everytime I heard that.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

MangoRoX87 said:


> Gahhhh. I really hate the grey gene. It's like a giant middle finger to all those people (like myself) who have to deal with white horses and lots of red dirt. XD


Awe, I don't feel that way at all! Yes, in the winter time they look like a dirty sock, but I love the sleek, clean, summer white horse look. And I ADORE dapple grays. 

I have owned 3 grays and two were already flea-bit (almost white) when I got them. My third, my gray mare's baby, was born bay and I was so pleased when I figured out he WAS a gray. That was my first color choice- any color going gray! And I wanted a colt. I got that too! I am excited to see his color change because I have never been able to see that in my own horses before. I hope he goes through a beautiful dappled phase. I know it doesn't last, but that's okay. I just want to enjoy it for a few years. :mrgreen: It's really kind of exciting because he's only 15 months old and has already changed color a couple of times. And he gets whiter by the season.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Oh yea I hate that and the white plus blue eyes means he's deaf....lol if I had a quarter everytime I heard that.


I used to have a tovero Paint that had one white ear. I had a lady swear he was deaf because he had a white ear. So I sneaked out there and made a noise. Yes he heard it. No he is not deaf, lol. :lol:


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

MangoRoX87 said:


> Gahhhh. I really hate the grey gene. It's like a giant middle finger to all those people (like myself) who have to deal with white horses and lots of red dirt. XD


Haha, I'm glad that I'm not the only one that just hates gray. That is, by far, my least favorite color of all the horses in the world and after Dobe is gone (_hopefully_ 20+ years from now, but not counting on it), I'll do my damnedest to never own another gray.

To me, it's not so much the color thing, though I do like a horse that picks a color and stays there, it's the melanomas that come along with the gene that really bother me.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

melanomas??? please explain....

My gray OTTB was almost black two years ago, and look at him now....wonder how long it'll take him to turn white....


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

(Correct me if I am wrong) I believe it's one in every 4 grey horses develop melanomas.

I don't so much HATE grey horses, it's that if any of my mares were to breed, then I still have that huuuge chance of a grey. And I would really like to change it up! None of my friends can tell my mares apart (even though one is a rose grey, one is a dapple and one is a fleabit lol). And even during the summer, if you live in Oklahoma, your horse is NOT going to stay white


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

Beauseant said:


> melanomas??? please explain....
> 
> My gray OTTB was almost black two years ago, and look at him now....wonder how long it'll take him to turn white....


Oops, double post
Your horse looks just like my mare a year after I got her! When I bought her, she was a daark steel grey color with no dapples. Now she is the middle of dark dapples with fleabites!


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## reiningfan (Jan 7, 2008)

I have found that the grey gene works FAST on a patterned Appaloosa. On a charcteristic, but not patterened Appy, it doesn't seem to work as fast.
Here is my 4 year old grey Appy gelding, Boots. His breeder keeps calling him a few spot. As you can see, he is not.


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

reiningfan- That's awesome!! I'm guessing he is wet in that picture?

When I wash off my older mare, she is grey and COVERED in pink spots. All scars, but it makes her look like a reverse leopard


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## reiningfan (Jan 7, 2008)

Yes, he was wet. We were at a show and he was doing his "suck in my gut & tuck in my tail" thing until I got the right warmth. It's a bad cell phone picture, my screen got scratched, but it shows his blanket outline pretty well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BlackCricket (Oct 20, 2011)

homozygous grey is more likely to develop melanomas than a heterozygous grey. I believe that heterozygous greys are also more likely to develop the "flea-bitten" look. Horses that are aa at agouti (as opposed to Aa or AA) are also more likely to develop melanomas. This was all discovered when they developed and came out with the test for grey. Notice, it says most/more likely, not absolute.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Ummm....what's the difference between heteryzgous or homoyzgous....and how can u tell which one your horse is?

sorry if i sound stupid..:-(


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## BlackCricket (Oct 20, 2011)

Homozygous greys, when bred, will only produce foals that will end up grey.
Heterozygous greys have a 50/50 shot at giving you a grey foal when bred.

the only way you can tell is if you get them color tested.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

thanks....i think i understand that.

Are grays doomed to get skin cancer then?? it's kind of freaking me out....:-(

My gray boy's mother was a gray...and he is descended from the Tetrarch through her...ALSO, on his sire's side he is descended from Native Dancer, the gray ghost..... i always like his dappled gray coat, now I am wishing he WASN'T GRAY...NOT If melanoma is the price he has to pay


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Not every gray gets melonoma. I don't know a whole lot about it though,sorry. You could PM Wallaby and ask her about it. Her mare Lacey has melanomas on the corners of her mouth. 

And homozygous means a horse has two copies of a gene, meaning they will always pass on that gene. Heterozygous means they only have 1 copy, giving them a 50% chance of passing on thta gene. It's easier to explain wih the cream gene because you can look atthe horse and know it's zygosity. Palomino and buckskin are heterozygous for cream; they only carry one copy and have a 50/50 chance of throwing a cream dilute foal. Cremello and perlinos are homozygous for cream and will always pass on one copy of cream no matter what.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

Thanks for that black cricket!
Beauseant- My mare comes from Native Dancer too
(Love how quickly subject changes lol)

Are the melanomas a real health threat? Anything you do about it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Yes melanomas can be a health threat and it is best to discuss them with your vet when they appear. 

There is no known way to prevent melanomas.


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## BlackCricket (Oct 20, 2011)

There is a theory that appys that go grey may have a lesser chance at melanomas. Something to do with the appy patterning and how it is produced/expressed. I'll have to find the exact 'why' they think this when I can get on an actual computer and not my phone
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Most grays will end up with melanomas at some point in their lives but from my understanding, the majority of them really aren't life threatening. Most grays that get them just get unsightly growths, most commonly around their genitals, under the tail, and between the hind leg on the udder/sheath. Some others, like my Dobe, get them on odd places like their back or face. I've heard mixed reviews about having them removed...some say to make sure and remove them asap to prevent spreading, others have said that if you remove them, the site of the surgery to remove them is more likely to have them grow back. At this point, I am of the mind that you should remove them when you can, as quickly as you notice them. I had 2 of Dobe's removed a couple of years ago and have not seen any sign of problems from the removal. When we finally get a freeze and kill all the flies, I will be having 3 more of his removed.

We had an old mare that we called Frosty that had them horrible under her tail. While they were extremely ugly, she remained healthy into her late 20's, and this was back in the 80's when she finally died, before the medical advancements and all that.


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## BlackCricket (Oct 20, 2011)

found a double creme dilute grey. CRW Beamers Creamer, has sired a few grey foals out of non-grey mares

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.ne..._588602254822_62103731_33893812_1256138_n.jpg

that is a picture of him.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

can someone post a pic of what one of these melanomas looks like? Because I don't even know what to look for on our boy!!!

and does anyone know, when you opt to have them removed, does the vet cut them off or freeze them off like warts?

and one more question for those who know, our boy's skin is black....r there light skinned grays and dark skinned grays? And why would a horse with black skin be more apt to get skin cancer than a pink skinned horse?


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## BlackCricket (Oct 20, 2011)

greys have dark skin, like most other colors. They will only have pink skin if--they are a double creme dilute, champagne (where it will then have freckles) under the grey or if there are white markings to cause the skin to be pink...and I would assume if the horse were a pearl or pearl/creme under the grey you would get the pumpkin colored skin (which may be possible with single creme dilutes as well--have seen several with this color of skin that did not have pearl or even champagne)

Melanomas look...warty almost...lumpy bumpy--for the most part.
**graphic picture if you don't want to see horse rear melanomas...don't click the link..lol**
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3028/2900235628_63e1313533.jpg

you can google image Equine Melanomas and it'll come up with a host of pictures for you to view.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

MangoRoX87 said:


> Are the melanomas a real health threat? Anything you do about it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Most definitely. 

Grey horses have a natural suppressor that lessons the chance of melanoma metasticizing, so although they have a substantially higher incidence of melanoma, most of their melanomas do not metasticize. However, for those that do metasticize, the melanoma is just as serious as it is in a non-grey horse.

In direct answer to your question, as with any cancer that metasticizes, melanoma can be fatal. In addition, even if it is a grey horse and the melanoma doesn't metasticize, it can get very nasty with secondary infections and complications - particularly as it occurs often in the genita, anal, and mouth areas...


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^Exactly.

Beau, the only ones I have good pictures of are the ones that I had taken off of Dobe a couple of years ago, they didn't get nearly to the point of the pic that black cricket posted.









Here is a better picture that really shows where they are at (I also circled them just for ease of finding...)









And here are the 2 that have come up on his face recently. He has another, larger one on his back but I don't have a good pic of that one and it is now mostly hidden by winter woolies.


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

Wow! I have learned a lot!!

Got to lookin at my mare today, and I found a weird small hairless patch on her shoulder with these weird bumpy-wart like things. Definitely going to get the vet out next week.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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