# Black Horse



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Would she be a fading black? Just want some other opinions? I know she is not a jet black.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

She's black. There is not genetic difference at this time between fading black and nonfading black.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Fading black horses can have a brown or red tinge and that is what she has... but jet black horses stay black, unless they are not getting the right nutrition. I believe she is fading black, but I am hoping she won't fade too much.

A lot of people say if a black horse has any amount of brown on it, it is not considered a black, but I have done some research, because I do not believe that. 

I am hoping she will stay as black as she is, or maybe get darker once her winter coat sheds. I am getting a blanket for her, so she will not sun fade. I don't know if it will help, but I am hoping.

Thanks for your opinion!


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

If you "know" what color you "think" she is why did you even bother to ask?

I gave you the KNOWN GENETIC answer. There is no genetic difference _at this point in time_ between fading and nonfading blacks. They are both *genetically* black.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

There are diet supplementations you can add that might help to keep a horse from fading (Black as Knight, paprika, copper), but you have to start them before the winter coat starts shedding and some will test positive in drug screening. The best preventive is to minimize UV exposure (night time turnout instead of day time, fly sheet or spray that has built in UV protection, etc)


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I read that the lower levels of copper can result in this, the black fading or turning reddish.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> If you "know" what color you "think" she is why did you even bother to ask?
> 
> I gave you the KNOWN GENETIC answer. There is no genetic difference _at this point in time_ between fading and nonfading blacks. They are both *genetically* black.


I am asking for opinions, and you gave me yours so thanks.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

I am not a color expert, but I would be tempted to call her brown (based on this photo) since there is a brown tinge to her hair over the abdomen as well as brown edges on her tail. Would be better to see her in person, of course, to tell for sure. 

But for the average horse person .... that horse is black.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

beau159 said:


> I am not a color expert, but I would be tempted to call her brown (based on this photo) since there is a brown tinge to her hair over the abdomen as well as brown edges on her tail. Would be better to see her in person, of course, to tell for sure.
> 
> But for the average horse person .... that horse is black.


Thanks for your opinion.

Although you may want to read this:

There are 3 types of black horses, jet black, fading black, and smoky black.

Smoky black isn't really a black horse though, it is brown with a black tinge.

Jet black is a black horse that does not fade unless it is poorly nutritioned.

Fading Black is a black horse that can have a brown or reddish tinge from the sun dying it, and its mane and tail can have brown highlights to it.



I wanted to know other peoples opinions on her colour so thank you for yours. But I, myself, still call her black, and same with others too.


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

Like NDA said, there is no genetic difference between "fading" black and "non-fading" black. There is, however, a genetic difference in smokey black. Smokey black is cream acting on a black coat. Their color is not a result from poor nutrition or sunbleaching. It's that color because of the cream. 

And no, her horse would not be brown. If the horse were brown, its "soft" points such as the flanks, behind the elbow, and the muzzle would be brown. Especially during the winter time this would be most noticeable.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Here is a more recent picture of her. She doesn't have brown anywhere on her face, neck, or legs. Just her barrel, mane and tail.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

*sigh*


She is *BLACK.* Any other "colors" you are seeing on her are due to damage to the hairs themselves (not counting white markings).

Once again, there is _no genetic difference_ between nonfading and fading blacks.

Smokey blacks are black horses with the cream gene and can also vary in shade just like "regular" blacks mentioned above. 

You can ask all the questions/opinions you want on her color. Genetically she is black and nothing is going to change that.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Yes, I get that there is no genetical difference now!


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Any red/brown/copper/what have you hairs mixed in with the black sporadically are just sun damaged. The same as the ends of my mostly light brown hair being very blonde in the summer. 

Only if the lighter areas are concentrated to areas specific to brown does it indicate brown. 

Your horse is black. Congrats.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am getting her a blanket too, so it will stop the sun from fading her black.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

I wouldn't bother. Once she sheds her winter coat, she'll be black again. You'll just have to put her on night turn out during the summer to keep her out of the sun.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

oh vair oh said:


> I wouldn't bother. Once she sheds her winter coat, she'll be black again. You'll just have to put her on night turn out during the summer to keep her out of the sun.


I cannot do that, I am getting her a winter blanket, and summer blanket. I do not have access to a barn to put her in, she is out in the sun all day, all year round. I am getting her a winter blanket because their shelter has no roof. I board her.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

I highly do not suggest having your horse under blankets for the rest of its life. She'll sweat to death and get lots of coat and skin problems. Unless you are showing high levels, it's pointless to care about whether she's fading or not.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

I won't have her under blankets all the time. In winter, it will be for cold days, or a few days before a show. In summer, it will be when it is raining, or before shows, To keep her coat clean after a bath.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Breezy2011 said:


> I am getting her a blanket too, so it will stop the sun from fading her black.


I don't have a problem with blanketing a horse if it is too cold, or for a show, but the statement above concerns me.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

I really want to keep her black, but I don't think it will happen. Even if I do keep a blanket on her, the sun will eventually get to her. So the times I do put the blanket on her, it will prevent the sun from getting to her on those days and therefore, keeping her more black, and less brown.

It is confusing but it is hard to put in words. Overall, she will not be living in a blanket.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Every day the sun touches your horse, it affects the hair. A couple days of blanketing will not stop the fading process. Usually within a month or two of my two black horses being outdoors all day after April, they'll be brownish. That's why I kept my black show horse inside during the day. There's just no way around it, unfortunately.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Horse turned out during the day:










Same horse turned out only at night:










Honestly, I don't think it really matters. Even with the brown he didn't look horrible.


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## PurpleMonkeyWrench (Jun 12, 2012)

Breezy2011 said:


> I am asking for opinions, and you gave me yours so thanks.


.....Amen.......


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

oh vair oh said:


> Horse turned out during the day:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Honestly, I think the night turnout is the best option, but I do not have that option so I just have to live with keeping her out 24/7.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

That's fine. I just would caution you against getting obsessed about keeping it black out of your means. You do what you can with what you got, right?


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Exactly! I am not going to do everything possible. I will bathe her with shampoo specifically for black horses, before shows, I will blanket her when I need to, and I will trim the brown out of her mane and tail. That is about all I can and will do.


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## Calming Melody (May 20, 2012)

This is Cash , he's is a black TWH ..One is of him this winter and one is of him in the summer....he is out 24/7


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Okay, so Cash fades too. He is a pretty horse.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Black horses carry the gene to manufacture black pigment (known as E) without the Agouti (A) modifier that restricts the location of the black pigment, and without any of the dilute modifiers (such as Cream or Dun). 

The reason that some horses are non-fading black may actually have to do with an inability to create RED pigment. If I remember correctly, pheomelanin (red) breaks down into a number of component molecules when exposed to UV radiation, including one that oxidizes eumelanin (black pigment). The absence of red pigment in the hair shaft would also reduce the characteristic "burned" or "rusty" look of the coat in the event the eumelanin was oxidized by other chemicals.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Confusing, but okay!


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Breezy2011 said:


> Confusing, but okay!


Just the difference between a non-fading and fading black.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

I wouldn't obsess about keeping her black. Unless your doing upper level showing I highly doubt your going to be counted off cause you horse has a little sun fading. So don't stress yourself out or your horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> I wouldn't obsess about keeping her black. Unless your doing upper level showing I highly doubt your going to be counted off cause you horse has a little sun fading. So don't stress yourself out or your horse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I won't be stressing me or my horse out, you don't have to worry about that.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Please do share the scientific data that backs that up. Until you have that, it's only a theory...


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## SunnyMeadeFarm (Sep 3, 2012)

I know I am coming into this late, but from my experiences -like many have said- "Fading Black" is a environmental factor more or less. So I would suggest not blanketing her all the time, but maybe on sunny days, like if its a nasty cloudy day just skip it, obviously you'd take off the blanket at night so the horse doesn't get rubbing and all the stuff. I rarely blanket my horses since they are happier unblanketed and it's healthier for them to deal with the weather like their wild ancestors did, but I realize some people have their reasons...

Bottom line is really its your horse your choice. She may fade no matter what, but your choice if you feel shes comfortable being blanketed so much, ok, just be cautious on really hot days as I know horses can overheat if they have the wrong kind of blanket on in hot weather. 

btw: I love her colors and eyes, I think I have told you that before in other forums. But she is seriously cool.


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## Red Cedar Farm (Dec 19, 2012)

Smokey black maybe? is that what you're asking?


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Red Cedar Farm said:


> Smokey black maybe? is that what you're asking?


She is not a smoky black. A smokey black is really not even a black horse.


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

.

Links to other forums have been removed

Smile everyone, you are now on the radar 


.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Yes smokey black IS a black horse that has a cream gene. 99% of the smokey black horses out there look _exactly_ like their non cream counterparts.


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## Red Cedar Farm (Dec 19, 2012)

Smokey black is genetically a black based horse with a single copy of the cream gene. They range from black to dark brown, but a true brown horse will have a brown muzzle. The black and smokey black horse has a black muzzle. This makes it easy to differentiate between black and dark dark brown horses.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Smoky black stallion = 









Another smoky black - 










Both of those horses above, without testing or progeny, you would not be able to tell they were smoky black.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

True colour remains on their head and legs. Smoky blacks is a dilute colour.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Smoky black stallion =
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You could classify those horses as fading blacks.


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## Red Cedar Farm (Dec 19, 2012)

Perhaps a fading black is an uneducated term for what we now know to be smokey black. 
Cream Dilution - Horse Coat Color DNA Testing

Another good link with photos.
http://grullablue.com/colors/foalcolors.htm#smokyblack


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

One cream gene does not dilute black immediately like it does on chestnut. If it did, buckskins would look like palominos. Smoky blacks look just like normal blacks.



Breezy2011 said:


> You could classify those horses as fading blacks.


Except they're already proven to be black + cream.. So they're smoky black, not fading.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

A fading black is a true black, that will be bleached by the sun. A smoky black is not a *True* black.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Nobody said they were... Everyone has said smoky black is black + cream..


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## Red Cedar Farm (Dec 19, 2012)

Have the "fading blacks" been tested to see if they indeed do carry a modifier? Perhaps it's just in the hair shaft itself....some horses have a tendency to fading hair shafts and other blacks have more pigment that doesn't fade?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I have to point this out EVERY horse, red based included in this, fades or burns when out in the sun. Every horse does so at different rates.

And once again, at this point in time, there *no* genetic difference between fading and nonfading blacks.


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

Look at it like humans. We stay out in the sun, we get burnt. Some burn faster than others. Even if you're the same shade as the person next to you, y'all may not burn at the same rate. The other person may not burn at all, while you're a freaking lobster(story of my life.) There is NO genetic difference in black. It's just black.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Why is this discussion about black getting so heated its ridiculous.
Your horse is BLACK that's it and that's all. Fading or not fading doesn't mater there no known genetic difference so either way like its been stated to death she's still just plain old BLACK!!!!
And unless she had a parent with a creme gene she can't be smokey black. And the only thing so special IMO about a smokey black is she may or may not pass it to her offspring if she has any ever. And regardless if she has creme the result is the same she may get sun bleached. No matter what she is still BLACK!!'
Sigh.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

> Look at it like humans. We stay out in the sun, we get burnt


I was just going to bring this up, look at it this way...I am a blonde, in the winter my hair gets darker because of less sun and in the summer it gets lighter because more sun BUT I am a BLONDE either way. It just changes

A "fading" horse is still a black horse. Because if you were to keep that same horse inside all day he wouldn't fade. It is a black horse but because of the sun he fades. Fading is the same color, there is no special difference. Your horse is black, black, black. Whether it fades or not.


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