# Horses Push Against Pressure.....or do they?



## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

I don't know if you are asking anythng or just stating your opinion. Either way, here's my opinion on it.

I've never heard that horses push against pressure. They move away from pressure, at least that's what I've understood. They are looking for the release of the pressure and moving away from it reduces it.

When someone says that they are training a horse to move a part of their body, forward, back or to the side, they are really teaching the horse to understand what they are asking of the horse. The horse already does know how to do the things we ask, just not how we ask it. Another way of saying it is that we are teaching the horse the way we want to communicate with it.

You asked "Why do they lean into us?" Your previous paragraph answers it. They are trying to "push" or pressure us into moving. They are trying to be the dominant one or leader. Until we can show them that we are higher up on the ladder, they will keep doing it.

Just my thoughts.


----------



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Horses DO push into pressure but not for any of the reasons the OP stated. The problem is the OP does not understand the _NATURAL_ instincts of the horse and needs to learn a bit more.

Why?

In the wild there will be less damage done to it ( the horse) if a predator attempts to bite it as they would when being hunted as food. To pull away from a predators bite would in fact cause a great deal more damage and by pushing into a predator the horse can negate further attempts to do damage as the horse can bring into focus its other defenses..

Very simple explanation really.


----------



## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Spyder said:


> Horses DO push into pressure but not for any of the reasons the OP stated. The problem is the OP does not understand the _NATURAL_ instincts of the horse and needs to learn a bit more.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


Good old Spyder. :lol:

These are massively domesticated animals of a species that was extinct on certain continents and had to be reintroduced by man. (in North America not until 1493)

Do you really think that they cannot tell the difference between a predators bite and someone asking them to move their bum when they are blocking the aisle munching on a haynet?

Most species have been demonstrated to measure and act in context to the situation (horses included). To not understand that is to miss the fundamental pillar of any tree of psychology.


----------



## Horsey and Holistic (Jun 30, 2011)

Has anyone thought about the muscles of a horse? I've done muscle therapy and relaxations on horses for almost three year now since I learned it and what if the horse is trying to get a muscle release? If you pay attention you're probably pushing on a tight spot on the horse and they'll lean in for a moment where they need the pressure before moving over for you after they 'lick and chew' as we call it, signaling the muscle release. They do it all the time in the pastures and in stalls. If you just watch, you'll see other horses helping one horse. What you may think is biting is really helping. They'll lean into a fence post for example then randomly walk away and relax their heads down before licking and chewing with their mouths. So I really think that this opinion could go either way, depending on where you push and what kind of physical condition your horse is in.


----------



## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Yes that is always a possibility. That is why any bodywork requires a full pre-evaluation by hand to check for differences in heat and texture and even variations in 'resistance' of the muscular fascia.


----------



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Doe said:


> Good old Spyder. :lol:
> 
> These are massively domesticated animals of a species that was extinct on certain continents and had to be reintroduced by man. (in North America not until 1493)


Irrelevant.



> Most species have been demonstrated to measure and act in context to the situation (horses included). To not understand that is to miss the fundamental pillar of any tree of psychology.



When you can write without the flowers around words that just go in circles then a debate can occur.


----------



## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Lol Ok Spyder.


----------



## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

The key word here, I think, is pressure. Like when an untrained/unhandled horse runs from the touch of a rope (no pressure) but will fight when pressure is applied to the rope.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Horse move into pressure sometimes either to know more what it is, or because the pressure is pushing them off their balance, or because they don't recognize the pressurer as one to whom they should defer.

As for moving into the attack of the predator, I wonder . . .
They certainly don't move into a rope or wire that tangles them. They panic and try to move AWAY from it ASAP!

There is a difference between pressure and constriction (like a rope holding them)


----------



## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

When horses panic they fight against pressure. The best example that everyone sees is a horse that pulls back. If they naturally gave into pressure the horse would not pull back once it felt the tension. We do not smell like horses, we do not look like horses and try as we might we can not act like horses. We are not a horse in a herd pecking order, we are meat eating predators. A horse is more likely to put us into the predator category than with his buddies. We teach them to understand that give into pressure is better, but for them to act like that to us, a predator, is not natural. 

I have heard a story about a bucking horse (in a panicked situation) would not leave the box, people tried to push it out but none of that helped, until another man got in the arena and pushed on the horse from the outside, the horse jumped into the pressure and exploded out to buck for his 8 seconds worth.


----------



## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

I understand you point, and it is a valid observation. However pulling against a lead rope is far more complicated than that. Firstly the horse feels pressure behind the poll, so in effect mentally it is a combination feeling he is being pushed and pulled. The poll is an especially sensitive area for horses, especially as it coincides with their blindspot.

However this is my point. There is a great difference between 'stimulus' and 'pressure'.

Equally there is a difference between natural 'rebalancing' as a reaction and dominance. All too often i see the only interpretation as everything is dominance and the horse has to be put in it's place. R the horse needs to learn to give. As I said, the horse already knows how to yield.

It comes back to the working with a horse in a way that it wants to follow and is not made to.
It's interesting that even some of the NH guys focus on this, but ultimately as all training is based on pressure, the horse is still being made to, however subtle it may appear. That is very different from stimulus and choice.

Now I know that people laugh at giving horses a choice (and I don't mean in a make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard type of choice) and some people will never get it, but surely that is the ultimate degree of communication and relationship with a horse.

Take kids or dogs for that matter. We can make them not do things with punishment etc, but the problem is when we are not around. They will still do it if they think they can get away with it. However if they learn why 'not' to do something, then it doesn't matter if we are there or not.

Similarly once you show a horse that it's okay to think for itself (under strong leadership) then the horse gains confidence so spookiness disappears almost immediately without desensitising, and they will begin to offer you all sorts of different things, because its okay to experiment. Again I know this scares some people, and others think it's crazy but then they will never see the real potential in any horse.

It comes back I think to Northerns mentor thread. I see myself as the horses mentor, I direct him, I do not wish to train him.


----------



## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

you think too much.

horses are very simple in this respect, they do what they know works. whether that is push or yield, so be it.


----------



## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Almost certainly.

Or perhaps I'm actually just lazy. I don't want to spend hours and hours repeating the same exercises to get a horse to yield lightly, or to desensitise it to anything it might come across on a trail.

Perhaps I prefer to find a way of setting all the rules and opening the communication in those first few brief minutes. A way that causes 90% of the issues to not be issues anymore. Then I can spend my time enjoying being with the horses, and they can too.


----------



## RowdyLover (Mar 10, 2010)

Hmmm my horse chooses to approach me in the paddock, he chooses to put his head in the halter..... conditioned response? He chooses to yield his hind quarters with a glance. He also chooses to stand on my foot to get closer for a scratch, bite my hand that wont scratch him and runs away when I want to put his rug on.

Maybe I'm missing something in this whole debate LOL. :think:


----------



## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

RowdyLover said:


> Hmmm my horse chooses to approach me in the paddock, he chooses to put his head in the halter..... conditioned response? He chooses to yield his hind quarters with a glance. He also chooses to stand on my foot to get closer for a scratch, bite my hand that wont scratch him and runs away when I want to put his rug on.
> 
> Maybe I'm missing something in this whole debate LOL. :think:


Exactly, and I'm presuming you don't get after him and allow him choices. Biting your hand for not scratching you or standing on your foot would be seen as dominance and a need for putting in his place by many I hear (and see).

There has to be a balance not the continual extremes.


----------



## RowdyLover (Mar 10, 2010)

He's a draft cross, standing on my foot is frowned upon LOL. Biting my hand gets him no love and scratches plus corrective treatment. Running away simply gets followed and rug put on. I didn't train my boy though, his actions are the work of many before me and one special lady who knows who she is. I believe he is who he was trained to be. Plain and simple. He has his choices, and like everyone/thing else, knows the consequences of those choices, unfortunately there are sometimes negative consequences.


----------



## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

You've brought up some mighty interesting threads, DOE, and I thank you. Among other things, it's made me really think about how much horse-like I actually want to be. I don't want to be totally dominant (okay, most of the time anyway) and I'd like my horses to know I'm NOT a horse, and not "talk" to me like one ("no kicking please!") and not expect our conversations to be held entirely in "their" language. They can learn some of mine. (To be truthful, I think all critters have a level of shared understanding, but let's not get weird here, right?) But that's all beside the point of this topic.

I find that the first reaction to any push is indeed a bracing of the body. In fact, if someone pushes me in a crowd, say, I also brace. It's not so much pushing back, but it might feel like it. Tinyliny has it just right, I think. But I admit, I don't know what you or Rashid mean by "soft."


----------



## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

I think part of the problem here is how people view dominance. We are sort of taught that dominance is "wrong" in our daily lives, But in the horse's world it is essential to a balanced herd.


----------



## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

TheLastUnicorn said:


> I think part of the problem here is how people view dominance. We are sort of taught that dominance is "wrong" in our daily lives, But in the horse's world it is essential to a balanced herd.


Agreed. Horses instinctively look for a leader for the sake of safety in their herd. It's hard to spend time eating and taking care of other such important business when you have to flinch and scan the horizon every 30 seconds for some threat or other. The lead horse (usually a mare) takes care of this need, and her vigilance allows the other horses to relax. The lead horse tells the rest of the herd that she can take care of them by fending off her herd-mates "threats." Those "threats" boil down to lower rung horses asking "Can you still take care of me? If you can't keep me in line, how can you deal with a puma??" 

Horses with leaders are much more relaxed and mentally healthy than horses who have to be their own leaders, looking out for their own safety as well as other pressing matters like eating and sleeping. Lots of horses in the world are the "alpha" horse over their humans, and it isn't so much a matter of "I don't like you and you will be submissive to me" as "You aren't strong enough to take care of me, you've proven that, so I'm taking care of both of us." IMHO, painting the dynamic in shades of anthropomorphism is a mistake. 



To put my 2 cents in on the original question, I do see horses "pushing against" pressure in their interactions. The horse pushes against a herd-mate, the herd-mate either yields (agreeing that the pusher is a more capable leader/protector) or pushes back (saying that he can take care of himself better than the pusher can take care of him). Whoever yields first concedes leadership to the other. 

Every yield to pressure reinforces to the Beta horse that the Alpha is still a capable leader. If Alpha yields to Beta, that plants seeds of doubt about Alpha's leadership ability, and tells Beta that he'd better step up to the plate.

Doe, would it be possible to post a link to an article in which Mark Rashid elaborates on the exact difference between lightness and softness? Or could you please outline what each one consists of? I'm a bit fuzzy on what you're implying by the difference, and would like to get a better idea what you're referencing. Thanks.


----------



## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Doe, I take your point. I think horses are actually fundamentally cooperative. Yes there are some dominant ones or some that are more playful etc. But for the most part they want to cooperate. I work and handle my horses routinely without halters in the herd. It works great, I can get a lot more done, and it improves my relationship with them. I have one horse that will move her body around me as I clean her feet so that I actually don't have to move very much and sometimes not at all. I rarely have to elevate my energy. Furthermore I prefer to live my life as simply as possible, without conflict, and with lots of cooperation.


----------



## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

The Loved One - a very nice post and very true. 

Scoutrider - I agree with what you say. Both herd and pack animals are used to having a leader. It gives them security. If you can't lead them then they have to lead themselves.

Often they do not actually want to do this and are happier being led. The only point I try to make is how we do it. My belief and experience is that acutally this doesn not need to be with force or pressure. That indeed can work and is the common method. Its co hard to describe but it is also possible to lead a horse so powerfully just by your presence that they do not question by pushing any longer, and whats more they begin to offer co-operation.

I hear so much talk on forums and in real life of what peoples horses don't do. Yet I hear little of what they can do and what they offer.

Softness - I will look for any free source I can find that will explain it better than I can. Mark has a video on the exact subject - developing softness. Im sure many would deem it common sense - but it isnt common practice. It is a simple concept yet difficult to master and we need to look at ourselves as much as the horse if we want to meet it. He has one demo where he is just rinding at a fast walk and changes the tempo of the horse just by his body feel (yes I know the basics). Then he clenches just one muscle group - in this case a fist - and the horse slows right down. 

Moving back on subject, softness hmmm. Lightness can be trained and relatively easily. Softness cannot. You can force a horse to be light. You cannot force a horse to be soft. Softness is when the horses mind is with you. It is willing, co-operative, and meeting you. There is no tension in his mind or his body. You will never even feel the weight of the reins tightening or the touch of a heel against their side because they have already met you. As I say im not the best person to explain it. What I am finding however is that my entire approach with a horse, every single interaction with them each day, entirely reflects on how soon we will or equally will not ever feel softness. 

I remember watching three people at different times in the same field. There's maybe 20 horses together. Everytime you go in the field the same 6 chase down.
The first owner is very huggy and soft. Unfortunately agreed her horse does seem to be protective of her with the others, but also has little respect himself. So theres a clammering as he sends the others away, a few kicks etc. She has to be careful in there if they spook.

The second owner is very dominant. She sends each of the others away with a stick. They respect the stick. They stand at distance as long as she hasn't got her back turned. Again there's a lot of scuffles and fighting and ive seen her flattened when one forced another the wrong way.

The third owner I very much respect. He has 'presence' but is also very neutral. The horses are totally different. A few weeks ago he was stood there in the middle of the same 6 horses. Literally in the middle. There was no bickering between them, nothing. Then out of nowhere a low level RAF jet came over at tree level. He jumped (so did I) and do did the horses. However, they did not take of running like all the others, it was simple jump a matter of a foot or so and then their minds were back with him. not only that but they all jumped away from him which meant them spooking in reverse so as not to run over him. To me that is absolute leadership. 

I used to desensitise horses in the way I was taught - advance and retreat, and it worked well. The more items I used themore effective it became.

Now however I am starting to learn that if I establish such total and complete leadership within minutes of meeting a new horse, then I no longer need to desensitise them.

Just my thoughts.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Doe, I think it's fantastic that you are learning to do this... But be careful you don't try to over simplify too. There is a lot about herd politics that is simply beyond our human minds too.

The thing about dominance is that it must be present in order for your horse to respect you. There is no fixed, tied and true method for this. Yes, 98% of the time all you will ever need is your energy, and a pure, clear image of your intent and the horse will do it's very best to comply... But we must always be ready for the challenger, and it's not always forseeable. ( as in it doesn't always need to be a certain horse)

In the herd, the leader is the best man for the job, so to speak, this means it IS ever changing to some extent. There are more dominant personalities which will rarely actually be lead horses ... And there are submissive horses who will rise up in a moment of crisis to take over and save the day.

So much to herd dynamics, but the single most important thing for us to remember is when a horse has decided to be leader, they take that leadership and wear it with confidence. It doesn't matter to the other horses if it was simply by virtue of presence (some horses just exude a leadership vibe that the rest never question, or only question rarely) or if they took it by direct pressure/force.

I will try to find the time in the next few days to upload some new photos I have... Mares with mares, mares with geldings, mares with stallions, and stallions with geldings and other stallions which show a wide variety of dominance. 

In the end it really comes down to using JUST ENOUGH pressure to get the desired result. How much that actually is, is going to depend, greatly, on the horse, the moment and the task at hand. We do have to be prepared to win though... Because allowing the horse to do so puts us in a position to take orders from them.


----------



## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Doe, this is fantastic. My findings are pretty much the same. I'm always amazed at how people hang on to getting respect and thinking dominance is the ultimate control mechanism. It is so much easier if you can tune into their energies and offer respect. Horses want to be respectful. I mean how can people think that they will get respect if none is given. Horses are not like humans - agreed - but they are very observant and if you show disrespect in their terms they will either offer fear, anger, or disrespect. I don't think humans are any different in that regard. My husband is an excellent human leader. He totally understands how to be powerful, and be in the leadership role. Does he do this by disrespecting others - no. Does he do this by being a pushover - no. There has to be mutual respect and attraction. I think we share these traits with many other mammals. People who are out there overdemanding respect will never get total cooperation IMO. You can't make someone love you or truly respect you. It is a choice.


----------



## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

```

```



TheLastUnicorn said:


> Doe, I think it's fantastic that you are learning to do this... But be careful you don't try to over simplify too. There is a lot about herd politics that is simply beyond our human minds too.
> 
> The thing about dominance is that it must be present in order for your horse to respect you. There is no fixed, tied and true method for this. Yes, 98% of the time all you will ever need is your energy, and a pure, clear image of your intent and the horse will do it's very best to comply... But we must always be ready for the challenger, and it's not always forseeable. ( as in it doesn't always need to be a certain horse)
> 
> ...


Unicorn I very much agree with the sentiment. A couple of things Id like to add from my perspective.

Firstly I do not believe that I am simplifying herd politics. Exactly the opposite in fact. Most of what I hear when people talk of herd behaviour only refers to a dominant mare and a lead stallion. That is indeed oversimplified in my experience, and especially makes no allowance for the warped nature of herd structure through domestication and they way we now keep horses. (fields of just gelding or mares', periods of stabling etc.)

Secondly this is not something I am now learning to do. Like with dogs I always knew how. It was the most natural thing. However, I didn't trust my instinct and felt that I must learn from someone else a 'method'. I also need to learn to be in the now, totally and completely when with them, and that actually was harder than anything and massively affects our outcomes.

Finally, the main point is, I am not, nor trying to be any member of the herd. I am not a horse. I don't look like one, I don't smell like one (well maybe my girlfriend might disagree after mucking out!) and I can never act in the same way. Not authentically. 

Most horse people (including myself previously) teaching others try to compare what they do with horse language as though that gives it validity. I believe (and now animal studies are beginning to support this) that actually horses can see us as we are and still choose to follow and interact differently. Look at it another way. If you are prey and you want security and a leader, who better than a predator if you can really trust them. These are domesticated animals, and who can keep the safer from predators another scary things than us? Instead of looking to be a leader that's pretending to be a horse, how about a leader that is stronger for not being horse, but understands what their motivations are ands offers them what they need? It's difficult to explain but as I say I look to what the horses need and act accordingly. Not at any point however am I trying to be or to simulate a horse.

I would love to see those photos by the way.


----------



## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

TheLovedOne said:


> Doe, this is fantastic. My findings are pretty much the same. I'm always amazed at how people hang on to getting respect and thinking dominance is the ultimate control mechanism. It is so much easier if you can tune into their energies and offer respect. Horses want to be respectful. I mean how can people think that they will get respect if none is given. Horses are not like humans - agreed - but they are very observant and if you show disrespect in their terms they will either offer fear, anger, or disrespect. I don't think humans are any different in that regard. My husband is an excellent human leader. He totally understands how to be powerful, and be in the leadership role. Does he do this by disrespecting others - no. Does he do this by being a pushover - no. There has to be mutual respect and attraction. I think we share these traits with many other mammals. People who are out there overdemanding respect will never get total cooperation IMO. You can't make someone love you or truly respect you. It is a choice.


How very true.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

The problem here is this isn't a discussion where the Internet makes a great medium for communication, too much is lost in translation.


----------



## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I like to think that I ask my horses questions rather than putting pressure on them. It's a totally different way of looking at things. Yes sometimes a horse can be very dominant but what I have found is that the horses that are really dominant are also really sensitive. Consequently they get their noses out of joint really easily and quickly. Just like people the cranky rude ones are always the most sensitive - ha.


----------



## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Unicorn, Loved One,

Both so absolutely true. God bless.


----------

