# Why do girls like horses? - > my "theory"



## inaclick

A friend asked me this question a while ago and I did my best to come up with a good answer. He's a middle aged father of 2 boys and his question was genuine and serious, without any joke or innuendo intentions of his side, so I tried building up an answer as good as I could come up with.

I'd like to sum it up and present it to you guys, as I have no idea if I got it right or not.

It is a known and acknowledged fact that from the multitude of children that are into horses, the vast majority are girls. Some of these just go through a "horsie" phase, others take this passion further and become excellent horse people or riders, etc.

But why the girls?

My answer was this:

No matter if you like horses or not, and no matter the gender, a horse gives you the impression of power, force, dignity. It is an intimidating animal, at least by the size. 
I believe that women (and girls, including little girls) react differently than men when faced with a big hunky ...creature. Both genders will be impressed, but I believe women have less of a competition instinct and more of a nurturing / protection instinct. 

I asked many guys why do they dislike horses. Their answers were vague, evasive, such as "they are too big", "they are dumb", "they smell bad". 
Considering that some of the men that gave these answers were owners of even "dumber" pets (such as snakes. No offense!) , I always thought they answers were hiding a reaction that they might not even understand themselves, on a conscious level. Perhaps they massive raw power and size of a horse is intimidating / irritating for a man, and perhaps exactly the same attributes are comforting and relaxing for a woman.

I believe that women are somehow genetically programmed to .... try and tame or befriend "big strong creatures", to gain their trust and eventually control them in a mild manner. I am sorry, this sentence probably sounds awfully offensive for both genders, but it's the best way I can resume my thoughts in writing.

I thought of what I was feeling when I was a little girl and walking around the first horse I was allowed to get close to. It was a huge, overweight, draft-mix horse. His hoofs were probably the size of my head. And yet I was not scared, but had this feeling of safety and peace whenever I was around him.

So, to sum up.
I think men and women perceive horses in exactly the same way, but react differently. A strong, large creature can actually create a feeling of comfort, safety and power in a woman, and a feeling of distress, danger and competition in a man. The little girl probably thinks the horse is the big buddy that looks out for her, while the little boy is worried the big dumb stinky beast might rip his head off. And this goes on for mature people as well.

As for the smell; There is indeed a distinct horse smell. I have met far less women disturbed by the smell than men. Perhaps it is subconsciously associated with testosterone? And in this case, again, men tend to avoid or get rid of the unwanted source, while women feel calmer, safer.

So what do you guys think of my theory? Did I nail it?
Please note that I am not talking about rational, logical decisions; I'm trying to explain to myself (and as well to my friend) what is with this almost natural reaction that women tend to have in liking horses, since very early ages.


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## equiniphile

Absolutely. When faced with power, both genders are awed, but men usually seem to have to tame or control that power, while women are happy to let a horse SHOW them their power. Does that make sense?


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## CharliGirl

I agree with you completely. My sister and I are quite comfortable around horses, while my brothers find even my elderly appaloosa to be somewhat intimidating (and the horses react accordingly).


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## Katesrider011

I agree with you, though I'm a guy. I get the same reaction when I ask other guys why they wouldn't ride. Most of the time they just aren't interested. Sometimes I wonder if they tell the truth. I wonder if some guys think they'll be sacrificing their masculinity by partaking in a "girly" sport. You know how guys like to be all tough ya know, and showing great passion for an animal will make people think otherwise. 

I love the smell of horses, I love being around them, and I actually like the criticism I get for riding horses cause it just makes me a stronger person. I want to take on a job that involves horses. Riding has created a new me, it's made me a stronger person than I ever was in my preteen years. You know all the Drama, but it got to me when I was twelve and stupid. Though I can still be stupid now  I'm still a teen.


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## kitten_Val

Frankly, folks, I think it's more of a cultural thing. Like in "western" part of country lots of riders are men, look at mongols, Indians (in past), people from Arabic countries, etc. In those cultures men were/are the main caregiver, rider and decision-makers when it comes to horses.


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## ErikaLynn

I agree with you and what you said makes a lot of sense. What about the men that do like horses? I see that English riding is more female dominate, but I do know a few male riders that ride english. My trainer is a man, and there are a lot of male Olympic riders. Do you have any theroies on that?


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## equiniphile

^Personally, I think riding is more appealing to men when it's framed as a "manly" sport, like the appeal of being a "tough Western cowboy". Dressage and "dancing horses" seems too feminine to a lot of guys.


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## natisha

I agree with your theory & will add my own too.
Most men/males like an off/on switch. Horses don't come with those.
You have to be smarter than the horse who may not always be readily obedient. It takes a special guy to understand the dynamics of a horse.
Most find it easier to push a switch or replace a broken part.


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## thesilverspear

I think it's socialization. I certainly wouldn't take any "genetic programming" theories seriously. Even in areas where the relationship between genetics and behaviour is being closely examined, researchers struggle to separate hardwiring from socialization and other outside influences. Genetic/gender predeterminism has a long history of being used to keep women fairly well subjugated on the grounds that female and male brains were (a) different and (b) that female brains were physiologically unfit practice law, medicine, politics, etc. Now that we live in an age of feminine empowerment (aye right), we can just change genetic predetermination theories to suit modern social norms. Cool how that works. 

What there is is pretty good research indicating how pervasive and subtle socialization is, especially when it comes to gendered behaviour. When kids are very young, they find their world ordered in incredibly gendered ways -- some things are for little boys and other things are for little girls, including horses. There are lots of horsey toys directed towards girls, for instance, while boy toys seem to consist of stuff like racing cars, guns, etc. It becomes a self-perpetuating cycle. If a boy does take an interest in riding and goes to his local stable, he'll find that most of the people there are women. In the meantime, his pals are off playing football. There's a lot of social pressure to do certain things and not do other things. Obviously just talking in the general case. Some kids are more susceptible than others with regards to how they fit into a peer group, and there are many great horsemen out there who are great role models for boys, should they encounter them. Anyway, in my totally anecdotal experience, kids are pretty ruthless about "correcting" behaviour which does not conform to their gender norms. Far more so than many adults, who have less rigid views of these things. I've seen preteen and teenage boys who were riding well hassled by their peer group for participating in a "girly" activity. 

You ask why little girls who go out to the barn seem to like horses from an early age? One possible reason might be pure statistics: we already live in a culture where it's assumed that horseback riding is a feminized sport. More girls are probably exposed to horses from the beginning, thus a greater percentage of them take an actual interest in horses. Another possible reason is that girls have been receiving subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle social cues that they should be liking horses, while their brothers are receiving social cues that they should be liking race cars and football. So when a girl is exposed to a live horse for the first time, she is more primed than a boy to like it. This sort of initial connection is amplified by the fact that most of the other people at the barn (if it's your average livery yard or riding school) will be women of all ages. 

What I don't believe at all is that there is something inherent in women which makes them like or want to connect with horses. In cultures with different gender expectations and also different horsemanship expectations men can and indeed are expected to forge a relationship with their horses. These include, offhand, the nomads on the Mongolian Stepps, the Bedouin, the Native Americans, and also guys who ride in the Spanish riding school in Vienna or who train Andalusians and Lusitanos in Spain and Portugal.


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## bsms

As a guy in his 50s who has always liked horses but only recently started riding them, I think you've missed it. Here are my ideas:

1 - Riding horses is a girls sport.

No reason why it has to be this way, but where I live, you either are around horses because you live on a ranch and then guys will ride horses, or you don't live on a ranch and it is something for girls. At a riding stable around here, you would rarely see an adult male riding. Lessons are given by women. Drive by a stable, and you'll see 14 year old girls riding. No men.

Of course, this had to start somewhere. Being old, I remember that in the 50s and 60s, men worked and women frequently did not. I spent most of my life working 12+ hour days, and fully understand why most men didn't come home and drive to a stable and ride horses. But with no role models, riding became a woman's sport, or more frequently a girls sport.

2 - Relationships. Long term training with a horse is a relationship. Most guys are goal oriented - do something to win something. You don't train a horse to win much in a year or two. In fact, you don't train them for much of anything unless you first spend some years learning yourself.

A guy looks at it and says, "A motorcycle doesn't need attention, I can learn to ride myself, and I can buy a moderately competitive cycle at a price I can afford.

Mia believes her real title is "Queen of the Universe", but in reality, she's a decent mare who was used for about a year for endurance racing by a guy, who then decided he needed something better. So she wasn't ridden for a year, and then was donated to a charity.

I bought her on a whim, started riding because I had just retired and was bored, didn't think much of it and was surprised a year or more later to discover that I liked her, and she liked me. I'm learning to ride by reading books and by climbing on her and seeing how she responds to different things. But it never occurred to me at the start that a horse would also end up being a friend...

Females are more relation based, and on average more likely to do something because of the relation it builds. That works well with riding a horse, particularly when you understand that the "Queen of the Universe" will never actually win anything.

For most guys, a motorcycle is faster, easier to learn, cheaper to own, goes more places, and you don't have to worry if the motorcycle likes you or respects you.

Anyways, those are my guesses. It is a pity. IMHO, riding horses is far more 'macho' than riding a motorcycle, and besides, I get tired of seeing questions posted on forums like "Is this horsie name cute enough?" and "Does this saddle make my butt look big?"










BTW - the braids were done by my wife. The photo is over a year old, and I have since trimmed Mia's mane to make it easier to brush and go...


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## petitepyromaniac

I don't agree that it's all socialization. We had horses in our backyard, so there wasn't peole of a certain gender to influence us like there might be at a boarding facility. 

My brothers couldn't care less about the horses. My sisters and I couldn't leave them alone.


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## thesilverspear

Then why in cultures where horseback riding is more closely associated with masculinity do more men ride?

It's not just what happens at a boarding stable or riding school. It's what happens in the wider context of society.


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## inaclick

Hello

Wow, so many answers!
Thank you

The social factor is indeed something I have not considered; perhaps because I was particularly thinking of little girls and boys, forgetting that socialization starts way more earlier than we would realize.

Also, I really really like the "relationship" factor, compared to the "win factor". It is a key point that I have not thought about.

However, I'm not sure if the cultural thing applies to my country, for example. In here the horse people are traditionally horsemen, especially in the countryside area. Women look after cows mostly, while men look after horses. 
And yet, when turning to the modern or urban society, a crushing majority of pupils at a riding school are girls.


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## tinyliny

I like what one of the male posters said about males being more goal oriented and females being more relationship oriented.
In the past (more than a hundred years ago) horses were not looked at , for the most part, as individuals. They were tools, a means to an end, a way to achieve a goal ; survival. Since they were viewed as a tool, there was no real need to have a relationship with them as an individual, indeed the conept of such was only something romantisized in books like "Black Beauty" (which was ahead of it's time).
I would think that since horses have become more pets than tools, and are viewed as individuals now, that they have more appeal to women, who look to form relationships. Men are still some of the best horsepersons in the world, but they relate with horses differently. In many cases, I think that women anthropmorphize horses TOO much, and it makes for a difficult connection with the horse. Because horses don't relate to each other the way many women think they "should", then there are places for disappointments and miscomunications between women and horses. Men may not be so concerned if the horse "likes" them and that makes for a relationship which is more in line with what is normal for the horse.
However, some women can achieve amazing connections with horses because of their acute sensitivity.

Anyway, am I rambling? Me thinks I am.


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## Ray MacDonald

I get tired of seeing questions posted on forums like "Is this horsie name cute enough?" and "Does this saddle make my butt look big?"
bsms

I roared when I read that!


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## natisha

BSMS, your horse is beautiful


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## thesilverspear

Here's another way to think about it. Biological determinism of behaviour is not an agile enough argument to account for the fact that there are vast differences between cultures and even between individuals in the same culture, nor does it account for the fact that you can't really know other minds. If men are hardwired to be goal-oriented because of their male qualities, and women are hardwired to be relationship oriented because of their female qualities, then where does that leave all the sensitive, relationship-oriented men and all the driven, goal-oriented women? You're backing yourself into a discursive corner, because the logical follow-on is that relationship-oriented men are somehow less male and goal-oriented women are somehow less female. If the ideal, perfectly natural feminine brain (remember, it's biological) is nurturing, sensitive, and relationship oriented, then women who do not behave like that must almost be seen as having something pathologically wrong with their brains. This sort of thinking imposes strict gender norms on people -- if you don't behave in a certain way, people will think something is wrong with you and you will find yourself not fitting in or whatever. Unsurprisingly, this is a little bit like how things really are. One example that comes to mind are people in Britain who make jokes like, "Margaret Thatcher was really a man." That tells you something about the perception of gendered behaviour and how Thatcher didn't conform to social norms of femaleness. She probably would not have got herself elected as Prime Minister if she had. Also, girls who dress and act in ways perceived male get labeled as "tom boys." I think many young women have tried to own this term, but it was certainly meant to be perjorative. On the other side, if you watch young boys playing, one of the worst ways to insult anyone in the group who shows too much sensitivity or fear is to call him a girl. So we don't need elaborate theories of biological determinism to police gender norms. They are so ingrained anyway and the theories merely justify the imposition of these norms on individuals. Which is exactly what they have done. The Victorians, not known for their feminist outlook, had elaborate scientific theories about the physiology of the brain and how that determined behaviour. They had physiological, scientific theories explaining how women's brains were weaker, more prone to "nervous disorders," irrational, nurturing, unable to cope with hard intellectual labour, etc. The science worked to help enforce already existing gender norms. 

If you argue instead that gendered behaviour is for the most part socialized instead of biological, then you're better equipped to deal with cultural and individual variation Needless to say, everyone has had different life experiences and due to that and yeah, to an extent due to their very individual hardwiring, respond to the social pressure around them differently.


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## inaclick

I do agree that bringing in the social argument offers a more proper and fair terrain for argumentation on this kind of topics.

However, I still consider there ARE biological factors that do influence both genders in their general approach, behavior, attitude and decisions.

We are still living beings, we still have organs, hormones, lifespan and so on. 

Most animal behaviorists accept, for example, that male horses tend to behave differently (sometimes) than mares We refer here to the majority, not exceptions.
This does not mean they attended a "manners school" where certain attributes would be socially imprinted.

I believe this could be the case for humans as well; Most of our behavior is imprinted socially, however instinctual and biological aspects still exist. Attributing our behavior to solely biology would be indeed not only wrong but also slippery, and it has led to many misconceptions in the past.

Denying the influence of our own nature and refusing it as a sign of weakness or fearing the consequences of who knows what conclusions might draw is, however, equally dangerous in my opinion.

Anyways, coming back to children, genders and horses. 
I wonder if other popular animals have such a large discrepancy in being liked by mostly 1 gender.
I thought of cats, dogs, rodents, could not come up with a similar example.

The "scary" pets - reptiles, large spiders - are preponderantly liked / raised by boys though, and here I agree it might be 100% social imprint.
Somehow it is still considered that a human female behaves properly if she faints / yells / runs off at the sight of an animal socially acknowledged as "ugly" or "scary". 

Interestingly enough, my interest in horses as a child was frowned upon and considered boy'ish. Weird, eh?
As a girl, I was supposed to be interested in kittens and baby chicks. At most, foals were a somehow accepted compromise.

The sexual segregation - social - is still very very strong in my country, although most adults deny it and sincerely do not realize it. Traditional toys for girls are still Barbie dolls, toy kitchen pots, baby dolls etc, whereas toy horses, toy trucks and ALL the games that mentally stimulate (building parts, etc) are boy destined.

Liking animals is actually regarded - especially among less educated or countryside communities - a men's childish desire. 
A woman (and a little girl) is slowly educated usually that most animals are a source of
- food
- germs
- unfit for a clean, proper house (which proper house is solely her responsability)
There is a high tolerance towards men and whatever they're doing ("big babies" attitude) and a very strict "stop that right now" attitude towards little girls, who are pushed towards maturing and "taking the reins of the house", behaving sober, etc.

Anyways, the reason for which I made this parallel was to show that even in a quite misogynistic country, it's still the girls that tend to approach the horse and still the boys that tend to avoid them 

I'd like to thank everyone who participated so far in this discussion, and please remember it is NOT a debate as much as a collective attempt to figure out some questions. Meaning that my theory does not represent my set in stone perspective, but merely my current supposition of why things are the way they are.

Please continue


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## bsms

thesilverspear said:


> ...If men are hardwired to be goal-oriented because of their male qualities, and women are hardwired to be relationship oriented because of their female qualities, then where does that leave all the sensitive, relationship-oriented men and all the driven, goal-oriented women? You're backing yourself into a discursive corner, because the logical follow-on is that relationship-oriented men are somehow less male and goal-oriented women are somehow less female...This sort of thinking imposes strict gender norms on people -- if you don't behave in a certain way, people will think something is wrong with you and you will find yourself not fitting in or whatever...


Put me in the group who believe men and women ARE different. Think of overlapping bell curves of behavior. Some men are more relation-oriented, and some women are more goal-oriented, and there will be some overlap. However, the vast majority of guys I've known during my 52 years have never ever talked to me about any relationships. Maybe a dozen times, someone will discuss some aspect of their marriage, and we'll sometimes talk about raising kids, but not in terms of relationships.

I think I'd been married for about 15 years before my wife realized I REALLY don't ever think about our marriage - not in terms of how I feel about it. And her friends will talk with her about their relationships, so I don't think it is just her.

Go to the teen talk section of the forum, and look for a guy who wants to talk about his relations with girls, etc. Maybe you'll find something, but not much. MOST guys just are not interested in that the way many girls are.

Does that come from genetics or environment? When I was young, I thought it was 100% environment. Then I had kids. They had pretty similar environments, but they were each completely different.

Consider Border Collies. They have a genetic instinct to herd. Usually. The first one I owned didn't see sheep until she was 7. A rancher friend had some range sheep not used to dogs that he needed to move, and he was curious to see if Leila had any interest. We were both shocked when she forced those range sheep into a tight flock and then moved then thru a gate without our asking. Then the next gate, and my friend had to run ahead a shut a third before Leila moved the sheep thru it. No training of any kind.

That doesn't mean all Border Collies will herd sheep without learning. The one I own now has shown no interest an any herding activity. His full sister qualified for and competed in the Nationals (finished in the teens as a novice, was DQed in her first open). But if you wanted to herd sheep, would you go talk to a Border Collie breeder, or a breeder of Labs?

On the whole, are Arabians more flighty than Quarter Horses? There are individual exceptions, but on the whole? Some people who live near me have asked why my horses seem alive, while most of the horses they see seem...dead. And I explain that Arabians tend to be more alert and more flighty than most Quarter Horses.

Regardless of genetics vs environment, I think it is obvious that women tend to be more in to relations than men, and men tend to be more competitive and goal oriented than women. It is a generality with many exceptions, but it certainly is consistent with what I've seen.

My mare has the personality of a human male in many ways. I wrote about it here: http://www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/help-i-dont-think-i-like-76945/#post908005

That is why we get along. We may have become friends, but we did it by doing things together, and she doesn't expect or like a lot of touchy-feely stuff. She likes to be ridden. She is willing to watch someone else riding with me, like a couple of guys watching a football game. But to just hang out together? Nope. And I think a lot of women would find her disappointing. She just doesn't give much emotional feedback, at least not the sort that many women seek. If you understand her, you can accept that she is very friendly and even affectionate, but she isn't the 'climb in your lap' horse that our other Arabian mare was.

Mia and I watching my youngest get one of her first lessons on the green broke but very friendly Lilly. We watched the whole time, but we didn't snuggle while doing it:


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## Ray MacDonald

Thats cute! ^^


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## riccil0ve

I agree with you, Ina. And bsms, and thesilverspear, lol. Just want to comment on some things. 

I do think socialization has a lot to do with who loves horses. However, coming from a household that very much did not like horses, I still had hundreds of toy horses. Even when I was volunteering at a therapy barn from 11 to 18, my father hated it. They were dirty, it made me dirty, it took up so much of my time, why don't I play real sports. My mom didn't hate horses, but she doesn't get the appeal. I am the only person in my family, as far back as I know of, to have horses, much less like them. So where did my love for horses come from, if socialization wasn't a big part of it?

There are exceptions to every rule, so I have to ask silverspear what she thinks of that. I was not pushed into horses. I had no one in my life that even really liked them, so why did I?

bsms may have been on to something, as well. In this country, men go out and work hard and a lot of women are "housewives." Nothing wrong with that, by the way. But if the man's work doesn't involve horses, I can understand not wanting to go and pursue a hobby that requires so much work.

On the other side, most men who's work does involve horses are not focused on any relationship. Most men will see the horse as a means to an end. I need meat, I buy cattle, horse helps handle cattle.

Basically, I think there are many depths and layers of the "correct" answer, and we can only begin to dabble in the surface.

Another thing to consider is that a lot of horses prefer women. I imagine for the softer, more nurturing nature of the woman. So perhaps the horse plays a significant role in why women like horses.


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## tinyliny

I have absolutely NO doubt that there are powerful biological differences between men and women. Socialization does not and cannot account for the way men and women react differently to horses, or anything, for that matter.

Going a bit farther from the original point of this discussion, the problem has arisen in past centuries when that which tends to be inherently female was thought to be an abheration of the norm, which of course was maleness.
That is like saying white is an abheration of black, or vice versa. Women have had to push against the general attitude that everything that they ARE is somehow a thinner, weaker, lesser shadow of the true Humanness; maleness.

Let us find some balance and realize that evey man has some womanness in him and every woman some malesness and neither is a pale shadow of the other.


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## bsms

riccil0ve said:


> ...Basically, I think there are many depths and layers of the "correct" answer, and we can only begin to dabble in the surface.
> 
> Another thing to consider is that a lot of horses prefer women. I imagine for the softer, more nurturing nature of the woman. So perhaps the horse plays a significant role in why women like horses.


Synaptic Self (Amazon.com: Synaptic Self: How Our Brains Become Who We Are (9780142001783): Joseph LeDoux: Books) and Deep Survival (Amazon.com: Deep Survival: Who Lives, Who Dies, and Why (9780393326154): Laurence Gonzales: Books) are both good books that wrestle with why we do what we do.

My sister and I were raised in a no horse home. She is by nature very emotional and very in touch with her feelings. I'm very goal oriented and not much concerned with feelings. She's a teacher. I was an F-4/F-111 WSO/EWO - NOT a warm and fuzzy profession.

I've always liked horses. She wouldn't care if all the horses died. So my 'relationship' theory dies, when applied to us. I still think it is a useful ROT, and I think it is a valid one sentence explanation for things that go deeper than any man understands. God may know the heart of a man, and the Shadow may know "what evil lurks in the hearts of men", but I know neither.

I will say that my approach to riding differs from my wife and daughters. They like horses that are friendly and reassuring. They find Mia a bit scary and indifferent. I rarely get on Mia's back without an idea of what I want to work on. Maybe it is for Mia, or maybe for me, but I almost always have a goal for our riding. Friendship wasn't a goal. It was something that happened as we worked together.

I think most horses are more in touch with their emotions than humans, and respond well to a human that can give and take at the emotional level. Not all horses are like that, and a dominant, goal-oriented horse Like Mia can become a nightmare for someone who isn't her match. I don't write Mia poetry. I don't go to her corral and read her books. I don't have daydreams about her, and I'm certain she doesn't dream about me.

I dunno. Maybe someone smarter than me can figure it out. For me, I'll have to quote the King and I: 

There are times I almost think 
I am not sure of what I absolutely know. 
Very often find confusion 
In conclusion I concluded long ago 
In my head are many facts 
That, as a student, I have studied to procure, 
In my head are many facts.. 
Of which I wish I was more certain I was sure! 

(Spoken): Is a puzzlement!


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## dance21

Everyone has a very interesting theory about this, but I particularly agree with bsms.
I think that guys just don't tend to get the rewards out of horses or riding. For example, I enjoy the feeling of achievement when I ride well or try something new, but I'm not sure that guys take it the same way. The whole topic seems very complicated.


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## Caitlinpalomino

This is part of my theorie!!! me and my sister absoloutly adore and love horses!!! were as my brother loves bulldozers and tracotrs(although he used to ride horses he has since "grown out of that") we always have arguments over which is better  his argument is always "tractors are more powerful and strong" and i always say "horses have feelings and they look out for you"(something like that anyway) ..................anyway what i am trying to say is i think that he finds horses intimidating and he has to be in full control the whole time!!! which is impossible with horses because they do think for themselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Caitlinpalomino

sorry guys mine might not make sense i came in mid conversation!!!! hehehehe


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## thesilverspear

Oh, well. Someone has to stand up for the social constructionists. 

I'm not saying there are no physiological differences between male and female brains. There are, and a lot of them are measurable (although if you read the scientific literature, what's measurable and how significant the differences are between the brain structures being measured varies immensely). The problem with extrapolating behaviour from the physiological data is that behaviour and our perception of behaviour is mediated through layers and layers of social conditioning. You can't get away from it. Social interaction supports the continuous reconstruction of gender and crucially, the discourse used to discuss it emerges from this kind of gendered normativity. Concepts like "goal-oriented" or "relationship oriented" or even "empathy" do not exist in an a priori vaccuum -- they are social constructs, not biological facts. What does "goal-oriented" mean? Bsms has given us a definition of sorts through his mare, who he says would rather just be ridden and not have poetry or books read to her. He even genders his description of the mare, saying how this is a masculine trait of hers. Interesting. This sort of discourse has little to do with the horse herself, but how her owner constructs her through the gendered lens of how our society views men and women. But horses can't be so easily gendered that way. Whether a horse like being fussed over and getting cuddles, or not, does not seem to have anything to do with whether it's male or female. I digress. Back to the language itself. "Goal-orientation" is something with socially-derived meaning and in our (by this, I mean Western, English speaking) culture, it's become associated with "maleness." Women can and do behave in ways intended to attain a goal, but it's not given the same label. Same with empathy. I think it's quite unfair when people claim that women feel more empathy than men. Women *express* empathy in different ways than men, but I maintain that this empathy-expression behaviour is socially learned, not inherent. After all, in different cultures, men and women would express this in different ways. This kind of thing is learned and constantly reconstructed and enforced in everyday interaction. 

The odd thing is how this cultural belief in inherent difference disagreggates the experience of interacting with real men and women. No one, ever, has met a person who is just a man, or just a woman, and is not affected in some way by their cultural, racial, or educational (to name a few) background.


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## inaclick

I totally agree, silverspear, thank you for coming back on the thread and an important fact that I missed in my "theory" was to remember that society starts working on us since we are born. By the time we are sent to school, we are already shaped in a form or another.


So perhaps we could replace my initial genetics hypothesis with "various causes, including society influence as a preponderant factor".

What about the other half, did I get that one right? 

About little girls relating to a horse considering it a large protector or a supersized teddybear or...both, while little boys might regard the size and force of the same animal as an unfair competition to their own attributes and their impredictability as a dangerous, risky factor.


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## gottatrot

I am probably way out there compared to your scientific thoughts on this. But I have thought before that people can somehow be "born" with a strong tendency to develop a passion for something in this world. For instance, I have a photo of me on my first birthday and I'm holding a book. It is opened to a picture of a horse and I'm looking at it. Now some would say I developed my love of horses from early exposure to pictures of them. But there were many other photos in that book, and I had many books. My parents were not horse people, they never encouraged my love of horses at all. Neither did they discourage it particularly, so I didn't decide to like horses because they disapproved. 

Some girls get horse crazy, but when they hit a certain age they move on to other things. That interest in horses to me seems like it could have been influenced by society and what girls are supposed to like. When they find out who they are in life, their interests change. For me it has always been a passion. There has never been a time in my life when I didn't think about horses every single day. I went for many years without being able to ride regularly or have my own horse, but my love for them never wavered or changed. I worked toward the goal of owning a horse from the time I was in kindergarten until I got my first horse at 18. One of the first things I told my husband when I met him was that I was always going to have to own a horse. 

None of my three siblings have a single passion in life that they live for. Neither do my parents. But I do know other people who seem to have been born with something that they have always loved and lived for. Not horses, but flying or travel or playing the violin. 

I know there are lots of people who work with horses who pick it up later in life. It isn't a "grand passion" for everyone. But for some of us I believe it was not something society told us we should do, or even consciously chose. It was more like imprinting. When I first saw a horse, it became part of my soul.


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## Makoda

Well this is an interesting thread that I think has a more simple explanation. 

First off though I would like to say that where I am from riding horses is almost completely male dominated and those few females that ride are nothing like what has been said of females being loving and relationship building with their horses. I do think that most young men are drawn more to motorized vehicles and I would say that is because they go faster and jump higher, more powerful, etc. Around here if your going to ride a horse it isn't something scary its more the fact that it is less exciting, not as much of an adrenaline rush.
I also would say that women are more intimidated by a horse. When a woman works a horse she will rely a lot on the tools to control the horse and try to convince the horse do what she wants where a man gets more physical and makes the horse do what he wants. Atleast it is that way for the men I see, fear of the horse is not even in question and neither is this competition of strength. Men are just typically stronger and can get out of a horse what they need easier through that.
The main reason I think women might be drawn to horses is through empowerment. women feel a great sense of power when they can make 1300 lbs or raw muscle move where and how they want it.

But back to the main debate of which gender likes horses more, well I tend to believe that it is neither. Honestly it is probably very equal, you either like horses or you don't and if your seeing more women in a stable or arena riding horses come to the country and you'll see the opposite men out on steep rough terrain blazing trails where none were before.


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## witsendfarm

*why do girls like horses thread*

I just came across this today, several months after the discussion started...

I've been coaching and running horse camps for about 30 years. I've noticed that there aren't many boys compared to girls, but my farm seems to have had more boys than usual. and... they competed in dressage. a judge commented on that, "not only boys riding, but doing dressage". 

what I have noticed is that girls take things personally and demonstrate symptoms of road rage when they are frustrated while developing their riding skills. the boys I have worked with on the other hand are cool and methodical about it, don't take it personally, don't get ticked with the horses, just focus on what to do and if it doesn't work, modify it a bit. but then....

later when we observe males and females as adults in the horse world, overall females seem to treat horses with more respect and finesse. Males, not all, take note, NOT ALL, but many, seem to be far more stressed and pressured when competing, and not so nice to their horses when no one is watching.

amazing that out of a base of riders that looks to be 95% female in the english realm, a very high proportion of international riders are males. possibly because males who do ride are dedicated and got good at it early on? 

who knows. lots of riders drop out along the way too. 

as to why people ride? they are attracted to horses and their families encourage their interest? do parents encourage boys to ride as much as they do girls, or do they maybe favour other interests and push for those. 

Again in my experience, at our local high school, apparently boys don't let on that they ride because other guys will mock them. sigh....

I'm betting that attitude would change if we had some polo and polocrosse going on in high profile locations in our community!


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## inaclick

witsendfarm said:


> Again in my experience, at our local high school, apparently boys don't let on that they ride because other guys will mock them. sigh....


really? bah, such a shame then! what happened to the knight on a white steed myth?


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## KatieQ

natisha said:


> I agree with your theory & will add my own too.
> Most men/males like an off/on switch. Horses don't come with those.
> You have to be smarter than the horse who may not always be readily obedient. It takes a special guy to understand the dynamics of a horse.
> Most find it easier to push a switch or replace a broken part.


I totally agree with this- if they can't fix it when it breaks they don't want any part of it. Also horses do not make that "engine noise", and they fart more loudly than most guys can, which is embarrassing.


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## christabelle

I don't really have a theory to add... Just an example. I am a mother of four boys, none of them care much for horses despite being raised by me (who adores them), as soon as they were introduced to quads and motorcycles it was love at first sight. There are no girls of my kids generation in my family... Just 9 boys. Only one of them loves horses, and he is... Ehem... Flamboyant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MN Tigerstripes

In my immediate family there are 3 kids. 

Older brother - loved horses from the start, had a great natural seat as a youngster, had two bad runaways very young. After falling off and being stepped on the second time he no longer wanted anything to do with the horses. He transferred his interest to motorized sports.

Me - loved horses from the start, pretty good natural rider (though to hear it not as good as brother), had several bad runaways at a young age and was fallen on several times. I kept riding and loving it through all of that. I do remember be intimidated by the size of the horse and being terrified when they ranaway with me. Probably the only reason I stayed on is because I WAS so scared. :lol:

Younger Sister - Was always intimidated by the horses, but rode occaisionally anyways. Her main fear has always been verbalized as "they might step on me." She is attracted to horse riding in some sense but the fear/intimidation factor is always foremost in her mind. 

Now Brother and I used to (and still do) occaisionally argue about horses vs motorized vehicles (he raced snowmobiles for years). His argument is "you never know what a horse is going to do" that is the argument I've heard from every other man about horses. My return argument is usually something along the lines of "that's what's exciting about it and keeps it challenging." Though when I was younger it was some "rainbows and butterflies" type crap. 

Am I masculine? To some people I am. I have been told I am "intimidating" "logical" "emasculating", that I hold my emotions in check and make desicions based on facts, I like to (try) fix things, work outdoors, and don't worry about my day-to-day appearance. Apparently in society these are all masculine traits. I am also a care-taker, emotional, I like to wear dresses, heels, make-up, and go dancing. As a young girl I was completely "girly" but as I went through puberty and then during my twenties I gained more "masculine" traits.

For the record riding is common in my extended family in both sexes. 

This response probably doesn't make any sense....  Sorry I'm trying to work and type. :?


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## stablegirl

I agree with bsms, but feel the need to add my opinion too! I think that most guys just don't think that riding will be fun either. So much of riding is training...for you or the horse. It can be really boring for some people and I think that most women (not all, because I've known a few that this wasn't true for) enjoy repeitive tasks more. This doesn't sound quite right...not just doing the same task, but practicing to make it better, like a ballet dancer who will do the same move for an hour to get it _right_. I use this example because you can walk into any dance class (at just about any level) and you will be lucky to see even one guy participating.

I think this is because most guys that I know are about getting results. This is not a bad thing in most areas of life, but all things horses take just a little bit more time. We all talk about having to "work" on things about our horses...choppy gaits that need rebalancing, improving stops or turns, teaching sensitivity...all these things can be seen as really tedious to people who just want to see results.

So to sum up, most women (that I know) are about the journey and most men are about the destination.

Does this sound right?


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## inaclick

Yes, yes it does.

Maybe we're not so much into repetitive stuff as we are into shaping, changing and progressing. We help our babies, our animals ...and even our men sometimes to evolve by standing near them and indeed, most of the times repeating same thing until it seems "right". Perhaps that's the feminine aspect?


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## Shiningc

Hi, I hope people don't mind bringing this thread up.

I've thought a while (ok, so more like an hour) about why might girls on average, are attracted to animals like horses and dolphins, again on average. I think the OP (inaclick) has a valid and sound input of her own, but I feel that it was a bit too subjective and biased with her own personal attitude towards the animal and I was not completely satisfied with the answer (although it was a good answer)... It didn't seem "universal" enough.

I've thought about why girls and women are often attracted to flowers and butterflies and it was immediately obvious as to why - it's because of their apparent power to attract. Flowers evolved to attract insects and animals, and butterflies also attract, but for different reasons - for defense and mating.

I'm going to assume that girls are attracted to horses not in the same way that they're attracted to someone of the opposite sex, but because like flowers and butterflies, they in some ways identify with them. Boys too are attracted to things that they identify with, such as dogs, lions, turtles, etc. People like things that they identify with.

Then I've thought about what do horses and dolphins have in common. Their grace and dignity? Their freedom? Their apparent "intuitiveness" and understanding nature?

The first two qualities did not seem to strike me as much. After all, there are many animals, such as tigers and cats, that are equally as graceful. And birds are usually associated with "freedom" than any other animals.

So I concluded that it was because of their third quality - their apparent intuitiveness and understanding quality. Most girls seem to like that fact, or at least the perceived fact, about them. They are understanding and protective especially in the time of distress, or so they think.

There are other animals, such as the owls, or even fictional ones like the unicorns, who seem perceptive and understanding, and I think that those animals frequently appear in girls' fairy tales. Girls are attracted to those qualities of people in general. They want somebody who is perceptive and understanding.

I'm going to conclude that boys like to surround themselves with people that they can compete with - they need a sparring partner than a "friend". Girls rather like to surround themselves with people who are perceptive, intuitive and understanding - they would rather have a "friend" than a sparring partner.

I'm not sure if this theory is 100% correct, but I am somewhat satisfied with this answer. What do you all think?

P.S. I DON'T think that horses are either masculine or feminine - it all depends on how you look at the animal. To most guys, horses are very masculine, and to most girls, they can be somewhat feminine, e.g. the unicorns. It all depends on how you look at the animals. But then again, this is about why girls are attracted to horses.


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## StarfireSparrow

There was actually a blurb on this a sociology text I read. It is a combination of cultural and sociological as well as instinctual factors. 

Essentially, in cultures that prize horses more for companion animals, it tends to be females who gravitate to them because they present an opportunity to practice caring for a protector figure. Most females have, on an instinctual level, a drive to nurture something stronger than herself. This stems from a time when being able to attract and "keep happy" the best provider resulted in a safer home, more food available and stronger children. Honestly if you watch a happy couple in the "honeymoon phase" you will see in a LOT of instances the woman become more "domestic" with no prompting. In cultures where horses are viewed more as a tool for a job it tends to be a male dominated interest. This does not mean that men do not bond with their horses, it simply means that the human brain will take cultural views and apply instinctual cues to them.


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## Shiningc

MysterySparrow said:


> Essentially, in cultures that prize horses more for companion animals, it tends to be females who gravitate to them because they present an opportunity to practice caring for a protector figure. Most females have, on an instinctual level, a drive to nurture something stronger than herself. This stems from a time when being able to attract and "keep happy" the best provider resulted in a safer home, more food available and stronger children.


Well, this could be true, but how can it explain the girls' fascination with say, dolphins? I don't know, I am completely stumped and I want a more satisfying answer. There must be something SYMBOLIC about those animals that girls in general are attracted to... just like boys in general are attracted to lions, snakes, whatever, etc. If you look at it closely then there is a clear PATTERN - such as that they are a bit more aggressive or defensive or whatever. There must be a similar pattern for horses, dolphins and unicorns.

I looked up the behavior of horses on Wikipedia and I found it interesting:



> Horses are prey animals with a strong fight-or-flight response. Their first reaction to threat is to startle and usually flee, although they will stand their ground and defend themselves when flight is impossible or if their young are threatened. They also tend to be curious; when startled, they will often hesitate an instant to ascertain the cause of their fright, and may not always flee from something that they perceive as non-threatening. Horses are herd animals, with a clear hierarchy of rank, led by a dominant individual, usually a mare.


Are they more matriarchal?


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## FaithCat

Yesterday, my mom brought up this same question to my trainer. Why is it that girls are more interested in horses than boys are(in general)? He thinks it's because of maturnity instinct.
That sounds like a reasonable answer to me. However, there are serveral good points I've read on this thread. Good job to those of you who wrote several paragraphs! These theroies are very interesting!


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## waresbear

I saw a show on Discovery Health channel about this. Was a while ago, so lets see if I can remember why....Ok it is mostly preteen & teenage girls, and it's something to do with hormones, and that's all I can remember, lol.


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## Horse racer

I don't know if any one has said this yet but, I think you see more girls than guys in the horse world because horsemanship has become a "girl" thing. It's not looked as a manly thing. Which I think is stupid. But a snake is dangerous and manly. Horsemanship has become a stereo type of girls. Same with cowboys, well at least at my school, that they're not manly because they're not a football player and they like horses. I get crap all the time about how cowboys are "queers" or" gay" it's sad how they're looked at nowadays....


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## Serenity616

I have noticed this as well. I do not know how to explain it though. I love their gentleness/gracefulness, and yet at the same time, their amazing power/strength... their unbridled passion and that look of freedom in their eyes. 

I never feared them as a child. I just wanted to groom them, ride them, whisper in their ear, etc. I know as a young girl, I could not get enough of them. I am still the same way today.  As for the smell, I TOTALLY agree! I actually LOVE the smell of horses while my husband finds it somewhat disgusting. 

In the end, I guess I cannot completely pinpoint exactly WHY girls love horses, but I know why I do.


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## gigem88

Before the 1900's, did girls/women get the chance to ride?


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## wetrain17

Subbing so I can finish reading later


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## mbf938

Well, Germaine Greer said that girls like horses because it is the only time in their life that they get to feel powerful, free and dominate some other being before accepting a life of being dominated by men.... I think that settles the women 'valuing' relationships theory, too. If it is all you are expected to do or valued for, you're probably going to prioritise it. Hence why I think the socialisation argument trumps all in this instance. 

I do not believe that there is an inherent nurturing instinct in women simply because they have a uterus nor do I believe that only men house a competitive instinct. Humans are a species of two sexes and I do not believe that they are that different other than a few physiological differences (even then, male and female reproductive systems look very similar if you look at the construction; the difference being the male's being lower down on the body and more external. This is because all babies begin as female in the womb and those that contain a y become 'male' later). 

I think the real question is why don't boys and men like horses in the same numbers? I think this was hit on the head earlier in the thread re the 'it has become seen as girly' comment. Historically, once men found something that they believed to be better, they tended to take ownership of it and disregard what came before. Horses have been a crucial part of history (including their relationship with men) but once things like tractors, cars etc came along, they were no longer so necessary. The restrictions on women riding (including prohibitions on riding astride) was relaxed. In addition, once something becomes associated with women or 'girls', it automatically loses value in our society, given that to be 'a girl' 'girly' or 'a woman' is often thought of as degrading or an insult. 

Essentially, I think that is more acceptable for girls to like horses than it is for boys because they are now thought of as something 'caring, nurturing' girls would like. Totally untrue, as when I was a girl, I liked the speed, power and rush I got from riding an animal that had a mind of its own, particularly in comparison to my car that would automatically do whatever I told it no matter what.


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## Janna

If I had a bike I'd probably not have many horses, no lie.  
They don't argue.


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## EvilHorseOfDoom

natisha said:


> I agree with your theory & will add my own too.
> Most men/males like an off/on switch.


I like my men with an on/off switch 

To be honest, it's only been in recent years that women have really come to the fore in (some) equine sports - and partially that has been to do with the decline of the use of horses in war. Also, in English circles, turnout has always been a really important part of riding - probably once again carrying through from the military. 

Guys in the old days used to be very smartly dressed. But for modern guys, dressing well is seen a bit feminine and therefore off-putting. However I don't think that is the case in Europe (and it seems Japan as well), where there are a lot of well-turned-out guys, whether they're into horses or not! Australian (and I'm guessing American) culture is a bit different - if an Aussie guy wears a well-cut suit then many people here almost automatically assume he's gay. I still see more guys riding trackwork or doing breaking and training.

I must say, as a very masculine girl, the dresscode expected for riding dressage was pretty offputting for a number of years - not to mention the fact that I am a dirt magnet and cannot possibly keep anything I wear white for more than 15 minutes.


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## thesilverspear

mbf938 said:


> Well, Germaine Greer said that girls like horses because it is the only time in their life that they get to feel powerful, free and dominate some other being before accepting a life of being dominated by men.... I think that settles the women 'valuing' relationships theory, too. If it is all you are expected to do or valued for, you're probably going to prioritise it. Hence why I think the socialisation argument trumps all in this instance.
> 
> I do not believe that there is an inherent nurturing instinct in women simply because they have a uterus nor do I believe that only men house a competitive instinct. Humans are a species of two sexes and I do not believe that they are that different other than a few physiological differences (even then, male and female reproductive systems look very similar if you look at the construction; the difference being the male's being lower down on the body and more external. This is because all babies begin as female in the womb and those that contain a y become 'male' later).
> 
> I think the real question is why don't boys and men like horses in the same numbers? I think this was hit on the head earlier in the thread re the 'it has become seen as girly' comment. Historically, once men found something that they believed to be better, they tended to take ownership of it and disregard what came before. Horses have been a crucial part of history (including their relationship with men) but once things like tractors, cars etc came along, they were no longer so necessary. The restrictions on women riding (including prohibitions on riding astride) was relaxed. In addition, once something becomes associated with women or 'girls', it automatically loses value in our society, given that to be 'a girl' 'girly' or 'a woman' is often thought of as degrading or an insult.
> 
> Essentially, I think that is more acceptable for girls to like horses than it is for boys because they are now thought of as something 'caring, nurturing' girls would like. Totally untrue, as when I was a girl, I liked the speed, power and rush I got from riding an animal that had a mind of its own, particularly in comparison to my car that would automatically do whatever I told it no matter what.


Agree with all of the above, except for the last sentence. You clearly haven't owned a Land Rover Discovery. The horse was far more reliable and cooperative in every respect. 

I think this is a fascinating thread from a sociological point of view. It might even answer the OP's question as people reveal all the assumptions made in our society about the relationships between gender and behaviour. The amount of posters (mostly female) arguing that there is something inherently feminine in qualities they see in the horse, using words like "nurturing," "maternal," and stating that women are more orientated towards "relationships" than men far surpasses the social constructionists. Then you get some even more interesting constructions of maculinity: "Men like to be in control... men are more goal orientated, men like an 'off/on' switch..." All these traits are viewed as inherently male. As I stated in an earlier post, there is no way to determine if any of these traits have any biological foundation because no one, not even social psychologists, can get past their own preconceptions and socialisation. 
Most females have, on an instinctual level, a drive to nurture something stronger than herself. 

Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1771244#ixzz2DEZVJDxT
​
Some fascinating theories, though. Not lacking for creativity. "Women enjoy repetitive tasks... men enjoy results." "Girls are attracted to things that are intuitive and understanding" (some of the most intuitive and understanding trainers I know of are men).


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## inaclick

MysterySparrow said:


> There was actually a blurb on this a sociology text I read. It is a combination of cultural and sociological as well as instinctual factors.
> 
> Essentially, in cultures that prize horses more for companion animals, it tends to be females who gravitate to them because they present an opportunity to practice caring for a protector figure. Most females have, on an instinctual level, a drive to nurture something stronger than herself. This stems from a time when being able to attract and "keep happy" the best provider resulted in a safer home, more food available and stronger children. Honestly if you watch a happy couple in the "honeymoon phase" you will see in a LOT of instances the woman become more "domestic" with no prompting. In cultures where horses are viewed more as a tool for a job it tends to be a male dominated interest. This does not mean that men do not bond with their horses, it simply means that the human brain will take cultural views and apply instinctual cues to them.


thanks for digging this thread back to life, whoever did it.
And I wanted to say that this reply is very interesting and I agree with the ideas although I have never thought of them before.


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## mbf938

When the attitude posed towards to questions regarding 'who is better at x: men or women?' is the same as the response to 'who is better at x: whites vs blacks' - essentially, the response to both should be: 'WTF, it does NOT matter! If there is a difference, years of oppression probably account for it rather than some inherent biological difference'.

Interesting and important, as the original negative beliefs about women were also applied to black people and other ethnic groups, so to tackle racism, you have to tackle sexism as the root of racism; as women were thought of as a separate species and that was then applied to other races in order to 'feminize' and 'degrade' them. 

Without solving sexism, racism and other prejudices will not disappear.


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