# Horse Headbutts, walks over me



## GoneRama (Aug 5, 2011)

Ok well it's pretty simple really..........tell him to get out of your space when he headbutts you!

I won't ever have a horse walking over me, never. If they go to walk over you then you need to make the horse aware that 'hey matey, I"M HERE!!!' so wave your arms about, jump up and down a bit until he gets out of your space and backs off a bit then Q U I T, let him think about it ie lick his lips. If you have to bump into him a bit then so be it. Sounds a bit out there and drastic but eventually all it will take is you to straighten up a bit and the horse to back off.

Also, verbal cues, asking a horse to 'stay', mmmm probably won't work all that well given horses don't understand English and aren't dogs. In regards to that 'jiggling the line thing' this needs to be taught in a progressive fashion.

Are you using a rope halter or a webbing one? What length lead are you using?

Hope this makes some sense, if you need some clarification on anything.....feel free to ask :thumbsup:


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## KeroKero (Jul 5, 2011)

I'm using A rope halter, 6 foot lead. 

So far I've been trying to walk right back into his face but he wins, since he's stronger. I will try to be more obnoxious.

Obviously I wasn't counting on human language alone to make him stay, I thought the process and repitition of the word and moving him back into place would que him into the idea of staying where he was. So how do you teach a horse to stand still while you walk around him? btw he ties fine :S I think this particular thing is called 'ground tying' ? maybe I'm wrong.


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## GoneRama (Aug 5, 2011)

Ok for me, personally, my horses are handled with a rope halter and no lead shorter than 12 foot. If my horses go to walk over me then yes, they get told that it will not profit them by waving my arms around and pushing them out of the way, even giving them a flick on the chest with the end of the rope (hence, 12 foot rope). As soon as they take a step away from me I drop my energy levels and sink back to being the little push over human. The biggest thing when working with any horse is when you quit asking them to do something.

By the sounds of it, yes, you're going to have get more obnoxious, this horse has your game figured and he's just sitting there going 'yeah, she doesn't really mean it' and barging right through you. So yes, getting more obnoxious and in his face will be a fantastic start. 

He will only win if you let him and are not persistent with your approach, sure the horse is 500kgs (sorry, Aussie here, no idea what that is in pounds) and you're, I dunno, 70kgs. What you've got to do is make yourself seem bigger than the horse. If you just go 'back off please horsey, back off please horsey, oh you're not going to do that, oh well' then you're inviting the horse to walk all over you and have no respect whereas if you approach it with the attitude of 'back off NOW horse and I'm not going to stop until you do' then you'll get somewhere.

ETA: having a 12 foot rope on your horse enables you enough room to put the horse back in his place without putting pressure on the head collar and unknowingly asking him to come forward.


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## KeroKero (Jul 5, 2011)

GoneRama said:


> Ok for me, personally, my horses are handled with a rope halter and no lead shorter than 12 foot. If my horses go to walk over me then yes, they get told that it will not profit them by waving my arms around and pushing them out of the way, even giving them a flick on the chest with the end of the rope (hence, 12 foot rope). As soon as they take a step away from me I drop my energy levels and sink back to being the little push over human. The biggest thing when working with any horse is when you quit asking them to do something.
> 
> By the sounds of it, yes, you're going to have get more obnoxious, this horse has your game figured and he's just sitting there going 'yeah, she doesn't really mean it' and barging right through you. So yes, getting more obnoxious and in his face will be a fantastic start.
> 
> He will only win if you let him and are not persistent with your approach, sure the horse is 500kgs (sorry, Aussie here, no idea what that is in pounds) and you're, I dunno, 70kgs. What you've got to do is make yourself seem bigger than the horse. If you just go 'back off please horsey, back off please horsey, oh you're not going to do that, oh well' then you're inviting the horse to walk all over you and have no respect whereas if you approach it with the attitude of 'back off NOW horse and I'm not going to stop until you do' then you'll get somewhere.


Okay, this horse is not being pampered. I'm not 'letting him win' and giving in. I've gotten this horse to move, from refusing to do -anything- even taking a step, by learning to apply pressure and release at the right time and using the right amount of force. I already know you have to be stern with horses, I don't see him through rose colored glasses - I'm looking for *specific instruction* on how to do very specific things here. I have been unsuccessful in finding the right technique on google and youtube thus far.

If I've taught him to walk with me, which he does now, how do I get him to distinguish between me wanting him to follow, and me wanting him to stand still whilst I walk out in front of him? I don't want him to begin walking, then get a pop in the chest and be confused. Should he always require me to pull his halter to begin leading him somewhere? Is there a better technique than what I've been doing to teach him to halt and stay put?


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## GoneRama (Aug 5, 2011)

My apologies if I came across attacking. I didn't say your horse is pampered and there is nothing wrong with pampered horses, it's a lot better than the alternative.

Hmmmm.....

Ok so basically the method you're after is exactly what you said in the third post of this thread about being more obnoxious.

You need to be clear to the horse when you're being 'obnoxious' (for want of a better terminology) and when you're not. Ahhh that's not good wording but I hope you get what I mean.

Your energy levels go up ie make yourself bigger (tense up, look a bit more serious, whatever) when you're asking him to back off and then drop when he's stepped back. Dropping your energy levels and quitting asking him once he's done what you ask is the cue to him that he's done the right thing and thus will generally result in a lick of the lips.

I'm not sure if there is a specific method to getting a horse out of your face.

Jiggling the rope thing is probably a good start as well but while it is achievable with a 6 foot lead it's easier and more effective with a 12 foot lead. You simply stand out the front of your horse and start with a little jiggle on the rope, if the horse steps back on this little indication then quit, if not, then build up the jiggle (even if it gets to you having to swing your arm back and forth, not ideal but go there if you have to) and as soon as that horse takes a step back QUIT then go back to building it up. Eventually he'll learn that a little jiggle, turns into a big jiggle which turns into an obnoxious human until he backs up so obviously he doesn't want the obnoxious human so he'll start backing up on the little jiggle.

Make sense?


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## KeroKero (Jul 5, 2011)

yeah that all makes sense - I'll work on one then work on the other... once he stops ploughing his giant face into me I can finally start working on groundtraining without being right beside him - I will definately pick up a 12 foot lead, I just worry it's too much rope! I already have sort of a clumsy time doubling over the end of the 6 foot - probably only because I've been training him with his face at my shoulder though  Thanks for the great advice! I'm starting to see already what I would've done differently right from the start ahahaha. Horse training has quite a learning curve.


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## hjracer (Jul 19, 2011)

First, from the sound of it, you are on the right track. I have seen way to many people with spoiled horses who have no respect for your personal space, so you are already ahead of the game. 

First, if you are having problems with your horse hitting you with his head, you need to address it before it gets worse. (Which you are doing.) If he headbutts you, of if you see his head coming, throw out your elbow and let him run into it. If he is pushing on you, don't be afraid to pop him on the nose or jaw with your hand and then make him back up aggressively. Really make him feel uncomfortable for running into you personal space. Then, stop and go back to what you are doing. Make it short and leave him wondering what he needs to do to make sure that doesn't happen again. I know how strong horses can get, so don't get into a pushing match. It is always easier to use driving pressure.

This will probably help you with getting him to yield better. Instead of trying to _push _his butt around, _drive _it around. I like to use a plastic stick about four feet long, but something like a dressage whip will work too. Start by standing up near his shoulder and tap the air with rhythm. Tap four times and then start to tap him lightly. if after four times he hasn't moved, tap harder. keep increasing the pressure every four numbers until he moves. When he tries to step around, instantly stop tapping and rub him with the stick until he stops. If you follow the progression, soon you will only need to tap the air and he will move.

With backing up, I stand about five feet in front of my horse and start by tapping the air in front of his nose with the stick. every four numbers increase the pressure. Tap the rope, tap the rope harder, tap the clip of the lead rope, then tap him on the nose. As soon as he steps back, stop and rub him on the face with the stick.

With everything, timing is important. The trick is to quit when they are giving you a good effort and hustling, not when they are being lazy or pushing or slowing down.

Ground tying is something that takes a while to teach. Try standing in front of him, facing him. Back away a few steps and if he follows you, wiggle the rope, increasing the pressure until he backs away. If you are having trouble getting him to back up, or if he keeps walking forward, walk towards him swinging your stick back and forth at about his chest height. If he doesn't move, and you keep walking forward, he will get hit with the stick. This really reinforces the idea that when I walk towards you and ask you to move, you had better move or the stick will hit you. Remember, as long as you rub the tap away, he will never get scared of it. Don't worry about him getting confused, because he will be in the beginning whenever you teach something new. Once he backs away, stop. At first, only walk away a few steps, then come back and rub him. You can also work on getting him to back out of your space without moving your feet, so he keeps getting farther and farther away from you and he learns to stand on the outside of your space (which is about as far as you can reach with the stick). That way he learns that even when he is five feet away from you, he still has to listen to you.

Oh, and I agree with getting a longer lead rope. It lets you get farther away while still staying in control.

I hope this all made sense and I didn't forget anything. If you have questions, I will answer them as best I can. Good Luck!


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## GoneRama (Aug 5, 2011)

Fantastic post hjracer :clap:

Training horses is a massive learning curve for anyone Kero, I'm just fortunate that I grew up on freshly broken in ponies that my mother was breaking in for clients so really, training horses is nothing new to me but can understand how daunting it can be 

Haha yeah, getting the hang of handling a 12 foot rope can be a bit of a challenge but you can always clip it up somewhere and practice lengthening and shortening it without the worry of the horse being there. I'm still trying to teach my partner how to hold my quiet old thoroughbred safely. It's just practice practice practice.

Good luck with it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I thought both of you guys made great posts. And KeroKero is doing wonders with the speed that she is ramping up into the horse world. She gets a huge gold star from me , smack in the middle of her forehead!

ya know, I can really say a lot of the same thing. And I think KK will find out how to do this on her own, over time. I think right now KK is very focusse don the technique , because this is so new to her, and maybe missing the "feel" of it. But that's no matter, it'll come in time.
I just wanted to reaassure you KK, not to worry about getting big and causing Clyde to get upset. He may get upset for a sec, and in a way, that indicates that you have made a change in his thinking. And , afterall, this is what "training" is all about' making a change in the thinking.

Right now Clyde probably isn't thinking about you very much and he is not giving you a lot of space in his head. That's why he walks right through you. He would never walk through the lead horse. He would be wathcing that lead horse like it was time bomb and moving around it with the greatest of care. You may not want your horse to be that attentive to you, and respectful (there is an element of fear there, too), but you do want to wake Clyde up so that he sees you and realized that you will make demands of him.

So, first of all, I rarely stand directly in front of a horse. There is hardley ever any need to, except perhaps backing him up for show. Better to stand at an angle off his shoulder slightly in front.
If he moves at all toward you, move him back. Don't wait so long to make the corrections. Correct the THOUGHT on his part, interupt it and change it to, "back to where you were". Look for the thought to change, either changeing to "what does this human want?" or to "I want that piece of grass over there" or "I wonder what's in her pocket, think I ]ll go sniff it".

If you want him to stay off of you, two steps, for example, correct him way before he gtets even half way too close. Much easier to correct the thouight than the action.

Get a good rope halter and a 12 foot lead with some weight to it. Youll need a big size. Double diamond makes a good product. This will be very helpful to you.

Wish I could come over and show you some of this stuff, but I get the feeling you will catch on really fast.

Gamabare! (go for it, in Japanese)


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## LadynDibs (Jul 29, 2011)

Please keep in mind what you have already acheived, well done.
No matter what I am doing with my two if they are asked to do something and don't I immediately make them back up a minimum of three paces first time they don't do as they are asked, they are then told to stand and I give their shoulder a scratch, occaisionally they will get a few pony nuts, (two handfuls are more than enough to work with both horses for at least half an hour). 
When I want them to stand so I can walk away I always say stand and hold up my index finger, it doesn't really matter what you do as long as the signal is consistant. I start by just taking one step back, at the start of the practices I would still have hold of the lead rein, if they moved at all I would back them up firmly but no physical contact only on the rope which I would hold very short under their chin and push back with it, don't know how much sense this is making, then we would do it again, each time they moved without permission they would be backed an extra step, usually six was the most and each time they were told back would be a bit firmer and with a harsher voice, but each time they went back as told they would have a little rub. My mare when I got her had always been tied to stand but a few minutes practice and she soon got the idea. The first day as soon as she didn't try to follow we ended that session with a lot of fuss and scratches within a few days she would stand alone quite happily for a couple of minutes. I'm sure now she knows me a bit better we could do more but atm I don't need her to so I haven't bothered.
I know differant things work better for differant people and I hope yo find something that works for you.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Here's a technique for keeping a horse away. (It's hard to be firm with a horse if he crowds.)

Practice first, swinging the rope OVERhand. Keep practicing until you can swing it neatly, about 3 feet of rope (more than you need.) 

You decide how close you want your horse to be, say 2 feet: when he advances past that, just start swinging a 2-ft length of rope. Never mind whether it strikes his face: he can see it and should avoid it. Don't aim it at him, or try to hit him, just casually swing it overhand between you. I try not even to look at the horse, as if the rope is an automatic space-setter. It's not me, it's the horse that starts it swinging.


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

KeroKero, I can't add anything to this EXCEPT I'm very clumsy with my hands, and trying to do all this at the same time may seem hard at first. Well I don't want to discourage you but after 3 years it's still hard for me, LOL. I'm always thinking (no the stick goes UNDER the lunge line when you change directions, hey, put your palms down not up, ok she's moving at a trot which you ask her to so why are you still putting pressure on her?) And I love youtube for when I forget something I've been shown or something new crops up. And of course here. Good luck, you're doing fine. Cheryl


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## KeroKero (Jul 5, 2011)

I also just realized I have a second 6 foot lead, with no buckle on it that I don't use - maybe Rather than a 12 foot I could try to use the extra rope as a tool, and so if I need to, can just drop it out of my hand? Also, totally off topic, I just 2 seconds ago got my first saddle pad! Hoorah! Now I just need the bridle and bit I ordered for him to come in (eggbutt snaffle), need to get a cinch, and I can actually try riding that beast... see what he remembers from 7 years ago XD


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

*Way to go KeroKero*

I often use part of my lunge line to put the pressure on and take it off so I'm not taking so much time fumbling around. But I've been doing this stuff with my mare for three years now, and she knows what I'm asking her to do and not to do. Doesn't mean she does either for me every time, LOL, but she knows. I mainly do the ground work with her to let her know we're going to work a little, or sometimes here in VT you're lucky if you can do even that in the winters. 
I just got my very first saddle ever since I've had her. Used the BO at the other place for 2 and 1/2, well more years. Bought this one off the BO who was going to put it on craigslist for $50.00. It's so exciting having your own stuff.


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## KeroKero (Jul 5, 2011)

aww, she looks great in it too  ! (that looks like a big horse!!)

Yes I am slowly collecting everything I need, and everything I think I need... I did go out last night and get a 10 foot lead (they didn't have 12?? buncha bums) and I'm going out today to measure him for his girth/cinch.... I don't know if I need a rear cinch, or a breast collar, but I've ordered a breast collar just incase I don't cinch quite right hopefully it'll stop my saddle from going a** over tea kettle. The saddle has those extra wee D-rings but I've been reading that they really aren't strong enough and so to attach the breast collar to the cinch-D rings, does anyone know if this is true? I also went out and bought a strong dog collar for a night latch ahaha just in case that gelding does something wacky!

Oh darn I had another question... ummmm...oh I don't remember... I hate that!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

GoneRama said:


> Also, verbal cues, asking a horse to 'stay', mmmm probably won't work all that well given horses don't understand English and aren't dogs.


I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with this. I have had both of my horses trained on verbal cues for MANY things. 

Aires is currently trained on "trot," "walk" (only when we're lunging), "switch" (for changing directions when we lunge), "stand," "back," and "step" and he's only two (and I've only had him for two months). We're working on "head" so that he'll drop his head down for me when I ask (he's going to finish out around 17hh, so I need him to be able to drop his head to my level when asked). "Step" and "stand" are useful for standing tied and mounting. When I ask him to "step," I push gently in whichever direction I want him to go and he takes a step or two in that direction until I stop asking him to move. It's also useful when your horse steps on your foot so you're not standing there trying to push them off you, you simply ask them to "step" and they'll move (have experience with this one! lol). If you're mounting and need your horse to move a couple of steps forward, you can use "step" and then you're not having to pull them forward into position. With my old gelding, I didn't even have to put pressure on the halter when I wanted him to back up. All I had to say was "back" and step toward him and he'd start backing up until I asked him to stop.

So yes, you can train a horse on verbal cues, they do understand them, and they are quite useful.


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

*KeroKero a couple things I remembered......*



> aww, she looks great in it too  ! (that looks like a big horse!!)


 That 'big horse' we measured several times on several terrains after I got her because both the BO and myself couldn't be she really was 15.1, LOL. Part of her looking so big I think is the saddle, I have the stirrups up high since I haven't had time to measure the length to my leg yet on her. Hope to do that today because I'm headed to the barn, and promised a pic of me riding. It's cloudy and I hope to get out in between rains and have the BO take some pics. And after I get the stirrups the right length, going to put bag balm on the fenders and hobbles so I can start turning the stirrups tonight before I leave. 
This pic will give you a better idea of her height...I call it Sienna's groom (me) explaining mud removal, LOL Now I'm 5'5" I also wanted to tell you a couple things I remembered but can only remember one. The post by the OP before me reminded me I wanted to tell you that of course you can use words with a horse, they can hear, LOL, and no the difference in words. Sienna knows her name, will look when I call no matter where she is. I always say things like 'back' when I'm jiggling the rope from a distance OR if warm up exercises. When she's lunging and has quit 'snaking' her head, etc. I start saying 'easy' to let her know she can start slowing down. I use whoa, and walk, trot canter on the lunge. Maybe that first person meant the skill you were trying to teach (ground tie) is advanced and with all the words I use, I always have a physical action, like 'easy drop both my hands to take the pressure off everywhere, and back with the jiggle or closer, lead toward chest. Sienna doesn't ground tie, LOL, she just stops because she's such a pig at the first piece of grass. More later this evening when i get back if I can think of anything. Cheryl


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## LadynDibs (Jul 29, 2011)

Originally Posted by *GoneRama*  
_Also, verbal cues, asking a horse to 'stay', mmmm probably won't work all that well given horses don't understand English and aren't dogs._


Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/horse-headbutts-walks-over-me-94205/page2/#ixzz1UMttFaTE

I'm afraid I disagree with Gonerama, if my mare gets a bit skittish and starts charging about she slows immediately I call out whoa and will even come to a stop, this has happened a few times when I've been behind her. When I am picking her feet I don't have to touch her but just say up. It may be the tone she hears and not the actual words but she will walk on when asked, no physical movement from me at all. We are a long way off the large number of different voice commands used by some people with their horses but, yes she does understand some.


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