# Possible Sabino?



## Zipper13 (Jul 17, 2015)

If the sire was carried the Sabino gene without displaying it as there was no color to contrast it with on his cremello coat color, it would be possible. Otherwise I would say that it is not Sabino. This is a really fun tool to play with to see how different genes affect the coat color!


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

Does there have to be a Sabino gene in the bloodline somewhere or can Sabino pop out of the woodwork unexpectedly? Probably a stupid question there 😂


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Silverwing said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have a palomino colt who has a white belly patch. I am asking the opinion of people more familiar with colour genetics than I, could this patch be from the Sabino gene? He has a blaze and 3 stockings as well. Mum is chestnut and sire is cremello; both solid.


What shade of Cremello is the sire? I have seen really white Cremellos so that the sabino markings wouldn't be visible, and then a really butter coloured Cremello.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

The cremello could have markings that aren't visible. Like Fimague I am curious about whether he was white or creamy. And one or the other could be so minimal as to not show color like the solid paints that carry genes but no color. The other option is daddy isn't daddy.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

Zipper13 said:


> If the sire was carried the Sabino gene without displaying it as there was no color to contrast it with on his cremello coat color, it would be possible. Otherwise I would say that it is not Sabino. This is a really fun tool to play with to see how different genes affect the coat color!


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? I have _things_ I need to do today haha! Another fun distraction!


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

Sabino is a gene that causes white markings that are typically irregular/jagged with ticking around the edges. It can express itself minimally in the form of a simple sock, maybe some white ticking through the body, random belly patches and seemingly normal leg & face markings. Or it can express itself loudly; sometimes splattering a horse with splash-like markings so that they look like a paint/pinto. Other times the white ticking spreads all over, creating a mock-roan appearance and in certain cases will turn an individual horse completely white. It all depends on the horse and each one can be affected differently so it is quite possible that your horse has it


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

QtrBel said:


> The cremello could have markings that aren't visible. Like Fimague I am curious about whether he was white or creamy. And one or the other could be so minimal as to not show color like the solid paints that carry genes but no color. The other option is daddy isn't daddy.


Dad is an ivory colour. He has a star that is visible up close, so I think if there was a patch on him somewhere, you could find it.
The chances of him *not* being the sire are pretty much nil - there are no other stallions on the property, or at the surrounding properties.

Given that Storm's (my boy) markings came out of nowhere - dad has a star, mum has strip and two socks - possibly also point to a sabino gene?


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

I've seen a black Shire stud with only a thin white blaze, who was bred to a plain bay Shire mare with absolutely no white at all, throw a high expression black Shire colt with 4 high whites, a nearly bald face, belly white, and high sabino ticking. So just because the sire and dam weren't marked very much doesn't mean the foal won't be spectacularly marked. You never know what's going to come out of the genetics lottery. 

-- Kai


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Whoops, forgot that you were talking about sabino being expressed. lol I guess my Shire example makes a case for sabino - the stud threw high sabino foals nearly all the time. : )

-- Kai


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

Update:


Here are some pics of the belly patch!























Also the skin under the patch is black if that helps.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

frame can hide on solid horses, hence why most horses should be tested for Lethal white if breeding. (in breeds where frame is present).


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

hang on i might be thinking of the splash gene


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

If there is no pink skin then it is ticking. It is not a white spot. The hair is also mixed in that patch though the majority of it is white. My palominos are marked the same in that the have mostly "white" patches of fur, black skin underneath - just in different areas than yours.


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## BiologyBrain (Jul 9, 2015)

Not to hijack the thread, but sabino ticking is intriguing me. I had a grulla mare with random smallish (none bigger than my hand) white patches on her haunch, neck, and along her spine. The skin underneath all the white patches was black & her dorsal stripe continued through the patches on her back. She also had a star, big snip, & one hind sock. I have her categorized as a pinto because of the white patches, but I wonder if she's just a weird Sabino. She was of unknown bloodlines, but definitely a Curly & likely with strong QH lines (based on build). I don't know if I have any photos of the patches anymore, but they always struck me as odd. 

Is sabino a pinto/Paint type?


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

What is known is that there are seven locations on genes that mutations occur and cause white. Two are major players in how and where white expresses, one medium and 4 minor. One affects face and another legs primarily and then there are those that affect body. The color and breed of horse can also determine which gene is doing the deed. There are other genes that cause color to dilute. Then you have roan that causes a specific pattern of white ticking. There are variations of this and it can be breed specific like varnish roan in Appaloosa vs regular roan. Appys also have a leopard patttern where the horse is basically white and the spots are colored. Last, the gray gene that causes the coat to turn white over time They are, I will say, stable in that they are genetically passable.


The patterns named are tobiano, overo and tovero. Overo includes the frame pattern, sabino and splash. There is also rabicano and dominant white. I think DW is a form of sabino.


For a "spot" to be considered white it would have pink skin underneath. Roaning and ticking do not. You'll see some horses that have white edged in "lace" where the white bleeds into the color along the edge of the marking. This is also called mapping. The skin under these areas is black.


Wild type bay can cause counter shading that mimics the dun dorsal stripe (and other markings). There are genes that add black like smutty or sooty.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

So, @KigerQueen , if this is attributed to "ticking" rather than it being an actual spot, how would an example like this factor into something like breed registries with color/pattern standards? 
(Sorry, sort of off topic for the thread! Just curious! <3)


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

As it is not considered white the horse is registered the base color and/or pattern if that is readily identifiable and those patches if stable can be sent in along with the other registration photos as markings useful for identification. My palominos that have those types of patches are registered as palomino. They also have extensive ticking in some areas but not others. Their markings are included on their registration (all have the same white star with the same whorl pattern and white left rear pastern with pally ermine spots- identical) and photos in addition to the 4 required include close ups of those white patches. Not necessary as they all have DNA on file but it makes visual ID easy.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

apha would probably say ovaro. it may not be accurate but i have seen overo horses look just like this guy.


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

Yep, Dilutes Australia confirmed he will be registered as solid pally


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Half of my Pallys are AQHA and the other half APHA. Unless there is pink skin under the white spot it is not counted toward white. My APHA are registered solid (Palomino).


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## lexrucker (May 11, 2017)

I just saw an overo that had some white like this on him along with his other paint markings and thought I might share. It's on instagram blondie.in.boots it's a public profile but I don't think I can share those pics

Sent from my SM-G930R4 using Tapatalk


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

That horse would by definition and pattern be considered Sabino. Sabino is classed under the Overo pattern by APHA.


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