# Am I asking too much from my horse?



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Well, the number 20 is not what's important. Many horses at 20 are indistinguishable from a 15 year old. I think if the terrain is flat, the temp not too high, the tack well fitting, and the rider balanced, even an unconditioned horse could do the 7 mile walk. 
your hrose still looks a tad on the bony side.

is it possible you could part lease him to someone who would not only help pay your expenses for him, but ride him sanely and regularly to keep his condition up?


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## tinaev (Dec 2, 2012)

He is still a little bony, yes. He has a huge gut but a bony top line. From what I understand this is due to the lack of exercise. 



> Is it possible you could part lease him to someone who would not only help pay your expenses for him, but ride him sanely and regularly to keep his condition up?


I would be willing to consider this if the right person came along. I won't lie, it would be hard to watch "my boy" hang out with someone else but it would be good for him!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

the right person will come along if you look for her/him.

is he up to date on his worming and teeth floating schedule?


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

Could you post a side view?


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## tinaev (Dec 2, 2012)

He is up to date on teeth, but they are bad. The vet last floated them in May and he was wormed then as well. He is recommending doing further dental work every 4 months to try to get the teeth in as good of condition as they can be. He is the vet that gave him to us and he was extremely pleased with the condition Rio is in vs a year and a half ago.

I don't have a current side view photo of his body without his tack on. I will try to get one next time I see him.


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## tinaev (Dec 2, 2012)

Actually, I did find a picture! This was taken last month during the vet visit.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

oh. one can see he is not underweight from that photo. one can see you are taking good care of him, foodwise, he just is more sway backed than many horses of his age. 

it must be challenging to find a good saddle fit.


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

Thank you for the side view. It confirmed my suspicion. He has a pretty good sway back, is the vet helping you find the correct saddle pads to fit the saddle? Sway backs can be a challenge to fit. You will also need to keep an eye out for "Kissing Spine", please google it, I'm really bad at trying to explain things.
You said you got the horse from your vet? If not for that I would have wondered about his age. It's sad to see that much of a sway on a horse that young. Yes, I said young. My first ever horse died at the age of 36, never a touch of sway. Other horse, passed at 33 did develop in her early twenties, she had quite a long back. I have 2 horses now that are 22 and 23, or real close to that, with no sway. I suppose he could be genetically predisposed.


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## tinaev (Dec 2, 2012)

Thank you guys, you've put my mind at ease a bit. The vet did give him to us, someone (a horse trader type person) just dropped him off to the vet's with no information other than "If he doesn't pass his Coggins please don't report us". He was a bag of bones with a surly attitude. Now that he's fatter he's a pretty easy going, fun to be around horse.

But yeah, his back is extremely swayed. The vet assured us that he's probably been like that most of his life and that it doesn't cause him any pain. Saddle fit was quite challenging! Luckily I have a friend with a saddle addiction and she let us borrow several to determine fit. I bought an endurance style saddle from her and it seems to fit him very well. I have been through A LOT of saddle pads though. 

I will google kissing spine. I am determined to get this horse as fit as possible.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

He's not at all bony but that sway back isn't going to do him any favours because he's also long backed and unless you keep him in regular work to build up his topline muscles he might get some strain related discomfort.
Horses are better ridden for an hour a day every day than do nothing all week and then go out for 5 hours - though not so bad if those 5 hours are at a steady pace - but he needs to work more consistently to get fit


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

jaydee is absolutely right, your horse needs more frequent exercise if you are wanting to build muscle and endurance. Any animal needs regular work to build/condition muscles. If you went to the gym once a week for a workout, do you think you would get stronger? A minimum of every other day, slowly building up. Please do keep in mind that his age is also a factor. Older horses can do big things. But, it takes longer to get in real shape. Trust me, I know from experience!:wink: I'm not nearly as active in the winter and lose condition (and gain a few pounds). It takes a lot more effort and longer to get back in shape now, at 56, than it did when I was younger. It is what it is.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I don't see why he couldn't do a nice 7 mile mostly walking trail ride. I have (and had) horses in their 20's that I really took no special precautions with at all. But they were very healthy and fit (from lots of consistent riding). I would definitely do 14 milers on my Fox Trotter mare and my gelding before he passed away at age 21. 

Your guy does look a bit older for his age though, due to the sway back and gray around his face. Is the vet pretty sure he is only 20? It wouldn't surprise me if he were older. But, if he's healthy just do some nice relaxing trail rides with him. He will tell you if he is having a hard time or enjoying himself.  It seems to be a common consensus that light work is good for the oldies. It helps them keep their muscle tone and their arthritis from stiffening up.


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## tinaev (Dec 2, 2012)

We have wickedly hot summers here, but since you guys are confirming my thoughts that more steady exercise would be good for him I may try to ramp it up a bit and go out after work in the evenings. Perhaps ride twice a week and a hand walk/jog one other time. I will have to see if I can afford that much gas, but it's an idea. Any longer rides I'd take him on would be at a slow, leisurely pace. I'm just in this for fun and want both of us to have a good time.

The vet aged him at 19 when we got him. How sure he was, I don't know. I've often thought he looked older as well but he obviously had a rough life the last few years at least so maybe that's contributed to his "look". I was told he spent a few years at a racetrack in Arizona when he was young. I've wondered if his sway back could be from too much exercise when he was too young.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

The sway back is more than likely genetic. riding him up and down hills will help a bit, as it builds better abdominal strength.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Would belly lifts help on a horse this swaybacked?


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

I would like to make sure you understand that building up his back and abdominal muscles will help, but he will still be sway back. That is in his spine. I admire you for wanting to do the best you can for this boy! I just hope you understand the limitations. If he had been kept in condition it would be a different story, as it is he is going to have limitations.
As long as all you are wanting from him are nice, easy trail rides, no problem. I do believe that is what you said. Work with him, slowly building him up to what he is able to do. Keep up with your vet, keep his feet at their best, take your time, you've got it made!


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## tinaev (Dec 2, 2012)

Thanks, I do try to seek out as many hills as possible and have him do a slow trot up them.

I realize that the sway back will never go away and that doesn't bother me as it doesn't seem to bother him. I would like for the visible bones on his back to go away though and for his hips to not be so pointy. Maybe it'll be possible, maybe not. Rio is primarily a pet and a lawnmower, all I will ever ask of him are leisurely trail rides. I would however like for him to be in the condition to possibly trailer somewhere and go on longer rides with friends. And I do believe he is capable of doing so and this thread has reinforced that.

Just for reference, this is where we started....


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## equinesnfelines (Feb 1, 2014)

1st off---i commend you for caring for this older boy. sounds like he is missing nothing but consistent exercise.

aging a horse with no written history over the age of 12-14 by the teeth--even though there are still some guidelines to go by--requires a great deal of expertise on anyone's part. it is popular to hear them call the horses "12 or a little more--he/she is smooth mouthed" at a horse sale i used to go to regularly. then you have to step back and look at head, back and how much graying there is on the animal....

my vets just do not have that--just 1 example: bought a mare at 7--watched the 7yr old hook on her tooth come and go and come back at 11 (like she read the book) and had her at the vet at 19--well, out of curiosity because he had toothed a horse at 3 that i knew was 8 i ask him to ck her teeth--he called her a 12 yr old!!!! have made a practice of looking at the teeth all my life of every horse whose age could be proven just to keep up on that because i have always found it interesting. gives me a baseline to go from.

your boy looks to be older in the face but as others have pointed out and are right about--age is not as important as condition--you are not trying to run barrels on him-LOL. he is a pretty boy regardless of age. good luck with finding more time to condition him--it is not always easy to do...i know. be blessed.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

No one seems to have answered my question about belly lifts, and I would not do it unless it seems like a reasonable thing to do with this horse. But I do agree that vets are notoriously bad at aging horses. Older horses are the best, and as long as his back is not sore there is no reason that you can't ride this horse.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

whisperbaby22 said:


> No one seems to have answered my question about belly lifts, and I would not do it unless it seems like a reasonable thing to do with this horse.


As I understand it, belly lifts will help add some muscle, and maybe fill in around the sway, but it will not change the curvature of the spine itself.


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## tinaev (Dec 2, 2012)

I've never heard of a belly lift, what is that?


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

tinaev said:


> I've never heard of a belly lift, what is that?


It might work to google "belly lift horses". There is a bell ringing in my head that says I have heard it done. Perhaps there were no answers because no one here has personal experience with it. I didn't respond for that reason exactly.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Belly lifts are when you press into center line of the horse's belly to make them lift their back with their abdominal muscles.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

I do this with my horse in this way, he does not respond to my fingers so I use a hoofpick and run it front to back a few times slowly, I started just a few seconds and gradually lengthened the time. Don't see any improvement, but my horse seems to enjoy it. I just was wondering if it would be good for a horse this swaybacked, my horse has a bad back, but not quite this swayed.


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## equinesnfelines (Feb 1, 2014)

"No one seems to have answered my question about belly lifts"

glad to see you got an answer--i looked right over your post focused on the pics of rio. it does seem that the sway is spinal though more than muscular so i honestly would not know if anything would be gained by it. 

on my out-of-condition paddock purty i do that several times running my thumbnail from where his girth goes down the belly midline to just a little behind where i imagine his belly-button--good time to ck for fly issues there also--and after a few of those i cue him to lower his head down to ground level and hold it also stretching that top line...i do this a few times and then he gets his ration. when i ride i do these before and after. i struggle to find time to ride so try to do what i can to help get him back in shape. plus he is long backed and i am trying to encourage as much core and spinal strength as possible. 

he has gotten so used to the routine he lowers his head when he sees me coming with his feed.


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## tinaev (Dec 2, 2012)

The belly lifts look interesting! I don't know that I would be able to get a reaction like that in the video from Rio (he can be way too relaxed sometimes!) but I will definitely give it a try.

Thanks for all the advice and info, I got way more out of this thread than I expected to.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

My mare started looking sway backed in her mid 20s, when she was out of work for a while. When I brought her back into work I lunged her 20-30 minutes 5-6 times a week, lots of work at trot and canter, lots of transitions and direction changes. This really improved her back and abdominal muscles, and reduced the sway considerably. I wouldn't have ridden her anymore otherwise - she needed that as parallel physio. But she looked and felt way better with lunge work and careful riding than standing in the paddock, and she enjoyed both. She even went on to place in both the halter and ridden class I took her in just for fun aged 27, in open-age competition where the next oldest competitors were over a decade younger than her. Few things create more problems for an old horse than being left totally unexercised, so go on your rides if your horse enjoys them.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

karliejaye said:


> As I understand it, belly lifts will help add some muscle, and maybe fill in around the sway, but it will not change the curvature of the spine itself.


Exercises that strengthen the back muscles also reduce the sway curvature. It's not like scoliosis, which is a sideways bend in the bone configuration itself - it's more like a human getting exaggerated lumbar and thoracic curvature from poor muscle tone and posture, which Pilates really addresses. There is genetic tendency for sway back, but muscles support the spine, and the sway curvature is made worse by a heavy belly, for instance, and not enough muscle to counter it, and almost always improved by improved muscle tone, which actually straightens the spinal curve out to quite a significant degree. And you're right, muscles also fill over the top of the area, padding it out and improving the appearance further. I think lunging is a better exercise for addressing swayback, and also helps condition lots of other things in the horse's body, and improves flexibility and general fitness.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

This is a wonderfully interesting topic! Glad I found it. I've tried the belly lifts on a couple horses I've had and haven't had as much success as I've had with regular work and hill climbing. Not mountain climbing, but gentle hills. They have to lower their head and work. 20 is young in my book. I have a 32 year old that can go circles around some of the youngsters. Genetics place a big part, but so does desire. Your horse doesn't know how old he is if you don't tell him. I've taken in a handful of "starvation rescues". This last one (20 yr old TWH mare) I've had for a year. When we first brought her home I took her to the vet immediately. She was so skinny and weak I was afraid the best thing for her was to let her go now before I got attached to her. My vet gave her a pretty thorough exam and found nothing wrong with her heart, lungs, legs or feet, but gallons of sand in her gut! Did a round of colicklenz and gave her time. Now a year later she's a fit, lean little power house. As she's too small for me my daughter-in-law rides her and she goes for hours with no problems. For the older horses, I add a "dry" senior pellet feed to their hay routine. Lots of vitamins without the sugar of some senior feeds. Does wonders.

So, go ride! Increase your time/distance every few days. If he gets tired, rest. There's nothing wrong with getting off and walking for a bit to let them rest and then continue. Enjoy your old guy and he'll love you for it. If it's hot, ride mornings or evenings. Try bareback. Mix it up. Horses are no different than any other domesticated creature. They need to be needed. You've come this far with him, push the envelope just a little bit more.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

He looks quite older than 20, is that what the vet says?

I might be wondering at Cushings based on the lack of topline, though it could just be an age thing.

He does look thin but cared for.

I am concerned that you say he's 20 (if it's true) which really isn't that old, healthy, no issues etc. (I would assume he would have some arthritis, just from age)

With all those things being true it is concerning for me that you used to go on trail rides for 20 mins/<1m and he would be exhausted. That is NOT normal.

Even with 3.5 miles (assuming you're walking and it's not super hot out) sweating isn't normal. Maybe a tad on the girth etc but not actually "sweaty".

I definitely do feel from the information given there may be more going on...

That said, as long as he is not overly sweaty/stressed/tired etc I see no reason not to work him up to longer distances. Go slow, work your way there, build him up. Stop if it seems like too much. He will tell you if it's too much, until then go for it just go slow.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

I'm not so sure about the idea that 20 minutes shouldn't cause a sweat or tiredness. This horse has had to come a long way. I don't know where he is, but here in Arizona my horses DRIP sweat just standing in the pasture. Muscles need conditioning and that takes time.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I would be extremely concerned if ANY (healthy) horse was shaking after 20 mins at a walk.

Obviously this horse has come a way since then, and obviously there are other factors (if it's 90 degrees out they're probably sweating just standing around!) but the impression I got from the initial post was concerning.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

You have for a wonderful job caring for him. If you do go on a longer ride be sure and give him electrolites if it is hot. I wouldn't hesitate at 7 miles and I would be cautous about 20.I would want a place that someone could come and get you if needed part way if it seemed like to much. I wouldn't push him and enjoy your regular rides, he has obviously had a hard life.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear in my thoughts. YES trembling and tired after such a short ride is of concern, but NOT a reason to think of not trying. I don't always express what I'm thinking very well. Yes, be careful and go slow. But keep trying.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^I agree.

It sounds like the horse is past that point and is doing much better overall, I think building up condition is good (for any horse) as long as done slowly and carefully so as not to harm the horse.

My point was simply the fact that this was (at some point) a horse that couldn't go 20 mins at a walk and that with a few other things hinted at (being overly sweaty etc) I would be concerned about an underlying health issue. I am glad he is past that point but would still have a full vet workup to make sure there isn't anything else going on.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Yes! As I did and found a stomach full of sand. After we took care of that, and floated teeth, my mare is like a young girl. Also, loving and appreciative of her current situation.


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## tinaev (Dec 2, 2012)

I certainly don't know his age for sure, but I do trust our vet when he says he is in good health. He told me 19 when I got him, which would make him 20 this year. But who really knows? I know aging can be quite difficult and tbh it really doesn't matter anyway. 

And yes, he does get sweaty. This time of year it will be 90 degrees by 10 AM, I will often see him just covered in dry sweat when he has done nothing other than stand under a tree by the water trough all day. I don't judge, I'm heat sensitive too. ;-) Both of our horses sweat a lot on rides regardless of the time of year. They can get pretty lathered up if the sun is right over head even in December. I attribute it to the same reason I sweat a lot, they are out of shape.

I really appreciate all the thoughts that have been posted on this thread. It's important that I have reasonable expectations and you guys have given me a lot to chew on. Plus, now we do belly lifts! We'll just take it easy and see how it goes.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Good luck to you. and bless you for taking care of this guy.


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## Prinella (Jul 12, 2011)

One ride a week isn't consistent conditioning. It would be best for him if you could find the right part leasee. However you may need to make some more time to get to know your new leasee before you are happy with them riding him without you there.


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