# Bad clinic experience?



## thecolorcoal

Anyone ever done a clinic with a BNT and left going "whaaaaat?" :frown_color: worked with a very famous, high-level trainer in the area yesterday... first bad clinic experience. not quite sure what she was trying to accomplish for us with her advice which was the exact opposite of what i've found works for us (her advice didn't work in the clinic btw)? this woman is a GP/gold medalist and worked with tom dorrance for a long time. Upon hearing that (no offense dorrance fans/natural horsemanship people) i was thinking "oh dear..." 

Tell me others have had experiences with clinicians who just didn't seem to offer the help and advice suited to your horse, or had the completely wrong read on your horse in the 45 minute snapshot they were able to take?


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## tinyliny

what is "BNT"?


were you participating or auditing?


I've watched a few clinics where I saw some stuff I didn't agree with, but that was AFTER I had attended enough varied cinics, and had enough training with one trainer to have gained enough knowledge that I felt secure in saying, "I disagree with that", or even, "No, that's wrong!".


The thing is, when I first started studying horsemanship beyond taking dressage lessons, I was very confused and felt that what I was being taught was all contrary to what I'd learned in dressage. 

Later, I found it to be not as contrary as I'd thought, and yet, completely different at the same time.


The way that Tom/Bill Dorrance taught things was very foreign to a lot of people, in part because of the language they use. They use words that don't often make sense . . . . until they do.


"fix it up for the horse so he can do the right thing"


"you get with the horse, then the horse will get with you".


"Get his thought going some direction, and then his feet will be easy to move that way"


etc. etc. . . . 



The things they are teaching really require time and a lot of exposure to horses, and to that approach. It's very common that people are totally confused by it, . . . and frankly. . . it's not for everyone.


That said, when someone gives me feedback, especially if I paid them for it, I'm apt to want to to hear it, open minded, since they may see something I can't . . .yet.


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## JCnGrace

@tinyliny, the first time I saw BNT being used on this forum I had to ask too. The problem is I still can't remember because until someone answered I could only come up with "bare naked trainer" so that's how my brain still computes those initials. LOL


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## AnitaAnne

JCnGrace said:


> @tinyliny, the first time I saw BNT being used on this forum I had to ask too. The problem is I still can't remember because until someone answered I could only come up with "bare naked trainer" so that's how my brain still computes those initials. LOL


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Now "Bare Neked Trainer" is in my head too :rofl: 

I took a clinic once with "He Who Shall Not Be Named" and left in disgust the second morning. Always watch/audit a clinician prior to riding with them 

Other than the above, _the one who only lets people walk_, never had a bad experience with a clinician. Have always gotten something out of it. I figure I'm paying for their opinion, I at least have to TRY to do what they ask...


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## waresbear

Only time I felt ripped off in a clinic was a showmanship clinic given by an open show judge who used show top levels Arabs. He taught me nothing I didn't already know, spent way too much one on one time with my daughter & I (creepy) and pretty much ignored the people who could have used his help. Two days and hundreds of dollars I will never get back.


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## JCnGrace

Sorry to give you my brain worm @AnitaAnne. LOL


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## AnitaAnne

JCnGrace said:


> Sorry to give you my brain worm @AnitaAnne. LOL


How about a visual?


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## waresbear

I've seen that video a of number of times before, where do I sign up for his clinic?


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## AnitaAnne

waresbear said:


> I've seen that video a of number of times before, where do I sign up for his clinic?


It's just as good the last time as the first time. But still difficult to study his...um...form as much as I would like. May have to watch a few more times!! :biggrin:


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## Chevaux

The video was funny — he’s got a good seat on him😄


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## trailhorserider

I would assume BNT is "Big Name Trainer." :smile:


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## waresbear

Chevaux said:


> The video was funny — he’s got a good seat on him😄


Yes, he has a superb seat. He rides pretty good too😉


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## Foxhunter

Going to any clinic with a trainer you do not know is a gamble. 

My answer is "Yes" - more than once. 

Th first was with a top eventing trainer. The clinic was arranged by a woman that had won Badminton Horse Trials. There were fourteen riders. 

I thought, as did most others, that we would be divided into groups but not at all, we were all riding together in a 20m x 40m indoor arena, way to many for the arena size. Also way to many variations in rider ability and horse experience. 

This instructor was brutal in that he was terribly rude. By the end of the first morning he had reduced the riders to ten, four having left in tears. By the end of the afternoon session it wa shown to eight. 

There was one woman, riding a very nice grey part Arab around 15.1. She had left but returned for a second try. The only rider who got any form of praise was the organiser on her advanced horse, the rest of us were shredded. (I was riding a talented but very green mare) 
We were doing some grid work and the poor woman was useless. Instead of encouraging her this bully had her in tears and when she went to leave he refused to let her take her horse with her. 

He then put the advanced rider on the horse but it was all over the place, running out at the grid and napping. The man did get riled at the advanced rider. I was sat next to another girl who, like me, had struggled and saved to pay the fee. 

As the fiasco was going on, so I turned to the girl amd quietly remarked that I understood what he was yelling about.,

That man either had ears as sensitive as a bat or was a lip reader because he yelled at me, "If you think you can do better, get on the horse!" 

I did! I dismounted and handed my reins to the other girl to hold my mare and vaulted onto the grey. The stirrups were way to short and to small so I crossed them in front of the saddle. I put my leg on the horse and had no reaction at all so I flicked him with my dressage whip and booted herd. 

He shot forward. I stopped and asked again and got a good forward reaction to my leg so I headed to the grid set up on the thre quarter line. Immediately the horse started to stop, I flicked him forward with leg and whip, had to keep a tight rein to keep him in and the whole grid was rushed with poles scattered, 

Of course the instructor was yelling and screaming at me. I looke down at him and with a voice loud enough that the audience could hear I looked down at him amd said, "I was taught that if you put a horse at a fence it either went over it or through it. If you were to set the poles straight instead of yelling, I will have a chance to do it correctly." 

He and a helper set the grid up, whilst I was waiting I kept the horse moving. I came around to the grid, the horse pricked his ears, went down the line with no hesitation at all and did it near perfectly. 
I dismounted and handed thenreins Tom him saying, "I believe that is what you wanted."

He was shocked at my audacity. 

At the end of the course he told me that I had been the most improved. I looked at him amd told him that if he had offered a compliment then my improvement would have been greater. 

He was a good instructor of the old military type, however, he played to the audience to much at the expense of the people paying his fee.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

LOL! BNT = Big Name Trainer or due to how a certain Arabian BNT used to wear his (bleached blonde) hair BHT = Big Hair Trainer. The thought of THAT one as a Bare Nekkid Trainer creeps me out so bad my socks just rolled up and down......BRRRRR!

I'm with the 'try 'em before you buy 'em' bunch. I will go see a lot of different trainers and rarely have actually paid to take a clinic after auditing. They're all good, they all have good points, but most don't have anything new to offer. Some have slick tools and videos, and I'll buy some of the gear or a video if I like what I see but clinics generally don't really do it for me. Part of that, I'm sure, is that I don't like riding/working with a bunch of horses and people I whose skill levels I don't know. PTSD trigger big time.


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## greentree

I have only done one clinic of the group sort...the rest were just private, higher priced lessons with auditors by a visiting trainer. The one I did was at our fairgrounds, so the arena was huge, and it was fun to cheer the other riders on through the obstacles.

Generally, THEY feel they have something totally unique to say (new name they made up for something old) or some revelation that is not. 

I prefer getting to know someone and them knowing my horse to the “one night stand”. I have always had a one track mind, and found it difficult to decipher the clinician’s “language” while trying to get my horse to do whatever they asked previous...


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## Avna

I have done a lot of clinics (just did one yesterday in fact). If I judged clinics on whether I came away with improved knowledge and skill, I'd never go to another, because it is quite rare that this happens to me. I do not learn by listening or watching (why videos are pointless for me), I only learn by doing, and most of any clinic is watching other people work, or giving something one try and then having to quit and let someone else have a go. 

Why someone with a big hat and a big rep would make a better clinician than somebody who just works daily at teaching people to do something, I don't know. 

Example of yesterday, which was just an introduction to a new trail competition venue here in the States, TREC. Brooke hates tarps. There was a "ditch" made up with a tarp at the bottom that you were supposed to jump over. Brooke would have jumped a real ditch but not one with a tarp. So I worked and worked, after everyone else had moved on, and eventually she jumped it and after that she'd jump it every time. What did I learn? Nothing, that's what she always does. Then there was a gate obstacle. Gate work takes a lot of patient practice, you have to break it into small pieces and then chain the pieces together, and there is no way to master this from dead cold. Brooke and I have worked many, many gates of all kinds. We went through that freestanding gate without the slightest problem. No one else in our group could even get close enough to the gate to open it, much less pass through and close it without taking a hand off it. Because they'd never trained for it, and it's a thing that requires a lot of specific training. What did Brooke and I learn? Nothing. We already knew it. What did they learn? Only that gates are really hard! So we all learned something about TREC rules, and had a fun time, and that's it. I considered it a successful day (plus it was only fifty bucks). 

But most clinics no matter who is the star of the show, do nothing for me except 1.camaraderie with participants and 2.doing something a bit different with my horse. I cannot remember a single time I learned something that really helped my riding. As opposed to a real lesson with a superior trainer, who is spending 45 minutes focusing entirely on you -- then yes indeed. 

Not sure why people do clinics . . . or why I keep going myself.


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## jaydee

I can't honestly say that I have. 
I've had lessons where I've struggled with less than competent trainers who didn't really teach me anything but they couldn't be described as BNT and I used to have lessons with someone who'd push the students really hard but he mostly seemed to know if you were too far out of your comfort zone.
I have audited some clinics with BNT's since I've been here and seen riders and those trainers struggling but it was always because the riders had been too generous with their own estimations of their experience level, probably because their usual trainers weren't tough enough on them and led them to believe they were better than they really were.

I'm not sure what the OP's clinic was all about as I'm not seeing the direct connection between the Tom Dorrance style of western riding and dressage, which I thought was her discipline. Maybe that's why it didn't work out?


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## AnitaAnne

Reading the responses, I'm guessing my clinics were not like the ones y'all mean...the clinics I attended were set up with individual sessions with at least 8 riders per day. All highly respected Dressage instructors. You get worked and worked HARD in most of them. Hard to get a slot too, they fill up fast. 

I always video my rides. Listening to the instructor again while watching what I and my horse are doing helps tremendously. Then I try to recreate anything that I needed work on with my instructors assistance.


But then I am a bit OCD


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## bsms

jaydee said:


> ...I'm not sure what the OP's clinic was all about as I'm not seeing the direct connection between the Tom Dorrance style of western riding and dressage, which I thought was her discipline. Maybe that's why it didn't work out?





> We should keep calm, and at the slightest sign of cadence, that is to say, at the first, or later on, at the second time, we should stop using the "aids", pat the horse's neck, give him time to become quiet, and begin again.
> 
> *A horseman who has great delicacy and tact, will stop the animal at the first time and pat him*. But the less tact he has, the less capable is he of judging if the time is in cadence. Such a man will continue in his attempts to catch the cadence, and will succeed only in upsetting the nerves of his horse. *These remarks explain the fact that a clever and tactful horseman will obtain all he wants from his mount, without making him either vicious or unsound*. Being able to recognize the slightest sign of obedience, he immediately stops the work, in order to make the horse understand, by pats on the neck, that he has done well. The quickness with which he perceives the slightest signs, *saves him from overtaxing and disgusting the horse, and provoking him to battle, which will wear them both out.*
> 
> The unskillful rider, who is slow in catching the cadence, will continue to use the spur, in order to obtain several cadenced times, and to be sure he is right, and will thus punish the horse, who, not knowing why he is punished, will defend himself, while the rider is spurring him. The result will be, that when he wants the horse to again do the passage, the animal will think he is going to be punished, and will become mad at the approach of the spurs.
> 
> *Hence, the important point is to recognize the slightest signs of good will, and to be content with little.* If the horse does not fear the approach of the legs, and if we are not too exacting, a time will always arrive when he will take up the cadence of the passage with ease and pleasure. *We may then ask more ; because, as the horse understands us, there will be no fear of over-exciting his nervous system*. - James Fillis, Breaking and Riding, 1890"





> "Many people don't realize how easy it is to destroy this confidence the horse has built up in the human - the closeness between the horse and the person. If the person will allow the horse to use this confidence and closeness, it will be strong in the horse. But the person generally doesn't realize what the horse is trying to apply - what it's really wanting the person to grasp. That is very seldom recognized by the person, but the horse is chuck full of it...We are searching for, and trying to find, some way to get this into print, so people will be able to out it to use for the benefit of themselves and their horses. It has to be a togetherness...Without that understanding we might just as well throw the whole thing in the creek_._" - Tom Dorrance "True Unity", page 11





> "Admire the horse for the good things he does and just kinda ignore the wrong things. First thing you know, the good things will get better and the bad things will get less." - Ray Hunt


I suspect the Dorrance brothers, Ray Hunt, Harry Whitney and other western 'natural horseman' types would understand and agree with James Fillis. To the extent I understood anything the Dorrance brothers wrote, or the somewhat clearing writing of Ray Hunt, they were all about "equine tact" - understanding the horse's mind, and engaging its fundamental spirit of cooperation instead of the "_if you put a horse at a fence it either went over it or through it_" approach to riding. Be it passing something scary on the trail, jumping, getting a canter when asked, dressage, cutting cattle, etc - the goal of what I understood the Dorrance brothers' teaching was the willing cooperation of the horse.

I may be reading my own beliefs and experience into what they wrote, but I find horses pretty willing to do something they don't care much about simply to make their rider happy. But that in return requires the rider to "ride the horse's mind" - something I find easy to write, but very hard to do! I also suspect it is the hardest thing to communicate, either in writing or in a clinic. When I first read Harry Whitney, I thought he was nuts. It wasn't until months later, maybe even years later, that I could look back and understand what he was saying - because I needed to the idea he wrote about _and_ my horse's actions to teach me.

So yeah, I could see how a natural horsemanship type clinic, even if taught by someone who was truly good, might have a person walk away feeling like they got nothing out of it. But if truly good, it will lurk in the background of the mind, waiting to illuminate what you see in your horse. And, of course, plenty of NH clinics probably just suck. That happens too.

It seems to me a good dressage rider - as I define good - would find a lot of common ground with natural horsemanship. Same with reining, WP, cutting, jumping or trail riding. "Equine tact" ought to apply to any riding. It is also IMHO the hardest thing to learn in riding - the part of riding which really has no end point of success, but that a person always learns more about. It also seems obvious to me that a competitive rider can win while using very little equine tact. It isn't required for "success" unless you define it as your goal. Then it becomes the only success that matters.


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## thecolorcoal

I found out, after the fact, that the on-site trainer doesn't even like this clinician. My fault for not digging deeper. I looked up her credentials and did the background research, and she seemed to be the real deal. I thought why not? Worst case is I don't get anything from it.

Well my horse was having a bit of a day and I was anxious to impress this BNT (big name trainer) so I rushed us a bit in the warm up. Maresy called me out on my arrogance and gave a bit of a cow kick to the leg. This brought on the trainer claiming we have no forward (not a lie as stated in previous posts) but her answer to fix it was the opposite of anything that worked in the past.

The clinic consisted of her telling me to "throw my reins" at the horse to get her to go forward and NOT use my leg. She wanted the horse spun in circles and tapped with the whip to "engage her hind" to trot. My horse doesn't know what the heck this means. She claimed my horse does not leg (not exactly a lie but not exactly true) and doesn't like contact (not true, as with contact [read: NOT HEAVY CONTACT] on the bit she is much more forward). 

I understand what this woman was trying to do to instill forward in the horse but I went back to riding my "usual way" the next day and all the issues from the clinic dissolved. Needless to say I am not sure what her point in her method was... it seemed very "colt starting," and she even said I need to treat the horse like a three year old who knows nothing.

Now this is a horse who has quite a bit of education on her, even if there are holes, and was completely lost and confused this entire ride. She was a super good sport for putting up with the chaos. Not a lot of horses would have the patience to try and muddle through a very confusing and upsetting ride without losing it themselves, so for that I applaud her.

Friend told me to try her one more time, so I will. She didn't see us at our best. Not her fault that she came to a conclusion based on what she saw, which definitely was not our brightest moment.

I've only been to two clinics. First clinic went much better than this and the clinician also noted we had no forward. At least I know forward is an issue we need to deal with, but I'd prefer dealing with it in the way my day-to-day trainer prefers, as that DOES work for us.


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## SteadyOn

The barn where I boarded in the early 90s hosted some small clinics a few times a year. We were quite lucky.

There was a clinic with a reasonably well known French Canadian dressage coach. This was just a month after I had bought my second horse, a nice finished Western horse that I was repurposing for English riding lessons. She was adapting really well but it was still a work in progress. 

He walked up, lengthened my stirrups A LOT and grabbed my legs, and pulled them SO far back that I felt completely out of balance and couldn't use any of my regular leg aids. The horse and I fumbled around in confused trot circles while I flapped uselessly and was told "Further back! Further back!" constantly. He asked us to pick up a canter and. We. Could. NOT. No matter what I did, this is NOT how this horse had been taught to canter. More fumbling, more confused trot circles. Ad infinitum.

Now, at the time I was already riding with my stirrups longer than I really should have been, especially for my AP saddle, so lengthening them a whole bunch was... questionable. I also have many pictures from the time, and my alignment of my leg beneath my hip was absolutely fine. Soooo.

That would be my total wash in a Big(gish) Name Trainer clinic.


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## Knave

I went to one once. It was extremely expensive, and I personally am not what one would call wealthy by any means. I was asked to go though, and I knew the trainer was highly successful, and I was struggling over getting General to give me his shoulder, so I decided I would just do it. I thought to myself that it would be worth the large amount of money for me to learn another way to accomplish what I had been stuck on. 

General was highly trainable. He was also very solid when he understood something, but he learned a bit differently than any horse I had ridden prior. He couldn’t be bullied, but had to be actually taught. He also could handle a lot more mental pressure than any horse I had ridden prior. I had already learned so much riding him. 

So, we show up all happy expecting to learn, and the first thing I notice is that all of the people in attendance are riding campaigners except one person on a very talented and very futurity broke filly. I couldn’t find their holes, and in all honestly I never saw one of them learn anything over the whole weekend. It was more like another avenue to show off and say you’d been somewhere.

The trainer was rough on horses. He picked me out right away as someone he didn’t like. He called me “the pretty girl,” but not in a complementary fashion. He would insult me loudly and said my horse wasn’t broke and that I couldn’t ride. Now, I had naively assumed that the point of a clinic was to learn something to fix a struggle. I could have, like others, brought a finished horse and showed off very easily. I tried my best to blend in and take the attention off of myself, but it never worked.

He rode very differently than I do, and he was hard on a horse’s face. He wanted everyone to see-saw into their slide stop. General was very light mouthed, and I tried my best to fake my hands moving but not really put much pressure on his face so that he would leave me alone. General had never been asked to slide stop with pressure on his mouth, so he ran through the stops. I didn’t care, thinking just leave me alone.

My mother was there too, and she came over and said “Why don’t you show him how that horse can stop?” I whispered, “No, I don’t want to get yelled at. It doesn’t matter in any case, I will go home and ride him my way and fix the problems I am creating. I don’t care.” So, my mother then (she likes important people), trots over to him and tattles what I said. He turns to his apprentice and I see him tell him to blow up my horse and then ask me to stop him my way.

This guy tries to follow orders, but he’s not really very happy over it I can see. I run General up and down with the stupid pretend see saw hands over and over. He figures he’s got him pretty blown up then and yells, “now show us your way.” Ok, fine. A silent prayer to my Lord, and I run that horse hard down the arena and ask him to stop. He buried his butt in the dirt and stopped big and hard. The apprentice started to giggle because he couldn’t help himself. He walked over to me and whispered “That is the neatest little horse.” 

I spend the majority of my time at that clinic being berated and humiliated. He made them vote on if the “pretty girl” could ride. I managed to never cry in front of them. I spent $1,500 I didn’t really have to do this. 

I was happy with the apprentice though, who snuck telling me an exercise to get General’s shoulder that did end up working to teach him what I lacked. I’ve used it on other horses that struggled with the concept. Was it worth the money? Maybe. Would I do it again? NEVER! I will not be caught dead attending another clinic.


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## knightrider

Wow @Knave, that story is horrible. What a ghastly experience. I feel so bad for you. I'm glad you got a little something from it, but how heartbreaking!

I have never been to a clinic and now I imagine I will never go to one.

I did take a set of 4 Western dressage lessons a few years ago. I've thought for a long time that I would enjoy Western dressage. Now, in 4-H, back 100 years ago, my nickname was "The Third Place Kid" because I was usually pretty OK, but not great. As my life unfolded, I found in ice skating, and other physical competitions, I was OK, but not great. The dressage lessons were so disappointing because, as in everything else, the teacher would watch Chorro and me for a bit and say, "That's pretty good. You're getting it. Keep practicing," and move on to either a brilliant rider who was really progressing or helping a hopeless rider who wasn't getting it at all.

The best part of those lessons was that there was a lady there, who years ago, conceived an unjustified dislike for me through a misunderstanding. The teacher kept doing the same thing to her the whole time, and we bonded over being largely ignored, and have gotten along great ever since.


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## Knave

Yes, it was awful @knightrider. I spent the moments I could hide somewhere calling my husband and crying about what a jerk that guy was, and the people with all their money to waste... 

I am glad you made friends over the deal. It is good to be a jack-of-all. Plus, I can see many a thing you master just by reading what you write.


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## waresbear

Knave that trainer didn't know squat if he was instructing to "seesaw" into a slide stop! WRONG, wrong, just so opposite wrong!


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## waresbear

Okay, if someone was calling me down, giving me garbage information, having people vote on my riding skills and I had paid money for this? I would make damm sure I got my money's worth! I might even leave that clinic with a restraining order against me, I don't let anyone disrespect me and get away with it, I don't care who they are! That post infuriated me!


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## Foxhunter

Two others. 

The first was with an elderly dressage rider. I was on a green horse that was having problems of the moving away from an individual leg. She was hot and headstrong I learnt that you had to often ask in a couple of different ways before she clicked as to what was being asked. 

We were meant to be leg yielding and she hadn't understood so the old dear walked towards her with her shooting stick pointing to her ribs. The mare flipped and thankfully I was quick enough to avert an accident! 

The second was a top U.K. show jumper. He was very knowledgeable about getting over any type of problem but his way of explaining or giving commands left a lot to be desired. 

We were in an indoor arena and he had set a fence up a couple of strides from a corner. One girl kept meeting it on a bum stride and he was telling her to "Cut the corner." Which she did but it made no difference. Time and time they tried and he kept saying the same thing. In the end I called out to her, "Come on the inside track." Which is what he meant. 

I did several course with him, learned a lot and his explanations did improve with experience!


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## Knave

Thank you @waresbear! I am so timid when it comes to conflict that it isn’t even reasonable. Like that border collie dog that just cowers when yelled at... that is me.


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## jaydee

bsms said:


> I suspect the Dorrance brothers, Ray Hunt, Harry Whitney and other western 'natural horseman' types would understand and agree with James Fillis. To the extent I understood anything the Dorrance brothers wrote, or the somewhat clearing writing of Ray Hunt, they were all about "equine tact" - understanding the horse's mind, and engaging its fundamental spirit of cooperation instead of the "_if you put a horse at a fence it either went over it or through it_" approach to riding. Be it passing something scary on the trail, jumping, getting a canter when asked, dressage, cutting cattle, etc - the goal of what I understood the Dorrance brothers' teaching was the willing cooperation of the horse.
> .


 While I get what you're saying and don't disagree with their way of thinking, those aren't the sort of things that you expect to find in a Dressage Clinic. 
If you pay to attend a dressage clinic (or jumping or eventing) then you're expected to have yourself and your horse already up to the standard that the clinic is aimed at. 
They're about refining your training methods to improve you and the horse at that level and preparation to move up a level. There really isn't time to be looking into your relationship with your horse the way they might if you went to a Natural Horsemanship clinic
Based on what the OP has since said it sounds as the trainer in question would cause a lot of confusion to a horse already involved in dressage training to the level where you'd pay to go to a clinic


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## SilverMaple

Trainers and clinicians tend to name-drop the Dorrance's and the Hunts, even if all they know about them is that they read one of the books. 

I went to a clinic once -- I was 19 and was the biggest female rider there at about 160 pounds at the time, and was called 'fat girl' within the first 20 minutes, and the clinician made comments more than once that there was nothing uglier than a fat girl on a horse, unless it was a fat girl on an ugly horse like mine. No comments to the male riders that weighed FAR more than I did. My horse at the time was a really nice, broke, well-built ranch horse. He didn't have a pretty head, but who cares? The rest of him was near perfect and he was an awesome horse. He was also called 'ugly.' 

I left after the first day. Aside from the humiliation, it had basically turned into a colt-starting clinic. Most of the other riders were on very green young horses. My 12 y.o. finished horse could do everything asked easily, so we were ignored when not berated. I was so glad my mom was ill and didn't come to audit the clinic... she would have marched right out there and put that trainer in his place. Sometimes I wish she had.


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## Knave

@SilverMaple that sucks something awful too! I don’t get where people get off bringing someone down... I am sorry that happened to you.


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## SilverMaple

It's ok. I learned not to waste my money on clinics unless I knew more about the trainer first. We just have so few in this area, I jumped at the chance and didn't really research it first. Oh well. Lesson learned.


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## tinyliny

There's a difference between being direct, and being rude. Some people experience directness as rudeness. But, being called fat or ugly? there's no room for interpretation. It's just rude.


I wouldn't stand for that, either. Whether I'd paid for it or not.




I've audited many more clinics than I've participated in. I actually get a lot out of watching from a distance. When you are down in the dirt, you miss a lot. But, of course, nothing is really 'learned' until you can put it into practice yourself.


Back to the OP . . @thecolorcoal . . why did you take this clinic? was there a particular thing you wanted to work on? how many riders were there? were you all riding at the same time, or working one on one, one at a time with the clinician? how much personal attention did you get?




were other folks also frustrated?


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## waresbear

SilverMaple, your bad experience infuriates me even more! If that happened to my daughter at a clinic, I would have tracked down that SOB, and had them crying in a corner in the fetal position!


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## beau159

I've been to quite a few barrel racing clinics. Of course, all with "BNT"s. Some were better than others. I think it's important to remember that some people might be talented riders at a high level, but not everyone is a talented *teacher*.


I've always been able to walk away with something positive from each clinic, but there are ones I will not go to again. 



Personally, I like the clinics where the BNT gets on everyone's horse themself and spends individual time with each horse/rider. I think it makes a world of difference when they can feel exactly what the horse is doing under them, and then relay to you what you need to do for that individual horse.


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## kewpalace

I have been to quite a lot of clinics that my trainer Matt put on. It took me a long time to venture out from his clinics (he never berates anyone or their horse and does everything he can to give you confidence to give it a try; if you are not, he will offer to ride your horse). I've audited quite a few BNT clinics - some who I would like to ride with & others, who I liked what I saw on TV, totally turned me off with being rude to riders, their staff or their spouse or even auditors or all of the above - I would NOT pay to ride with them. Others may not have been rude but had the attitude of they knew SO much more than you and you could not possibly understand the wisdom they would impart. 

I audited one clinic where the BNT told my friend, who was riding in the clinic and asked him a question, "I could tell you, but you wouldn't understand." Yea, he was a general [insert bad words here] and bandied about the "I rode with the Dorrance Brothers" as his claim to fame. He got a big name and lots of followers, which always amazed me as there were so much more talented and/or NICER clinicians out there. I did not see this guy as any great shakes, but some people did.

The BNTs I have paid to ride with, I have been very picky about and have come away with something to think about and work on. None of those have every berated me or my horse, although I know some did not like my horse (1/2 Arab). But as long as they gave us the time and instructed us, I didn't care if they liked my horse or not. 

I had another clinician tell the crowd at the beginning of the clinic that my horse (Pi) "was one of those that had been spurred and whip to excess". I've had Pi since she was two and none of that was true. She was very sensitive and can get very emotional and will really wring her tail when she does. You put too much leg on her and that tail GOES. When she wants to take over to work a cow, that tail GOES. But she's never been spurred "to excess" (we don't use our spur to force a horse) and she's never been whipped (don't use whips). By the 2nd day, when she had calmed down and he watched us work, he never brought that up again. I think another clinician described her best, "She WANTS to work too much!" 

Anyway, I like to go to clinics; I like to see the clinician work with other people and their horses since much of what they do CAN apply to me, too. But not every clinician is for everyone and you have to do your homework before you go. Your money might be better spent with a local unknown trainer than a BNT. I've found that true for me many times.


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## COWCHICK77

Admittedly I've been to very few clinics so I don't have a whole lot to base my opinion on but here it is anyhow.

The first thing I learned is I dont learn well in a clinic type setting. I think for the amount of money I spent at the few I've been to(they are spendy) I could of bought that many more private lessons with the trainer of my choice and got a lot more out of it.
But I understand why people go. They may not have access to that type of trainer to take lessons or they enjoy a clinic type environment. I know a couple of people who clinic junkies and try to hit as many as they can.

I think Beau brought up a great point. Not all trainers are great teachers. That is something to maybe research before shelling out the big bucks to attend an expensive clinic or even to take lessons from a trainer.
Along with does their training style mesh well with yours?
I realize sometimes you just dont know until you go unfortunately. One BNT I wouldn't of guessed he was that big of an a$$ nor used a certain style other than what I've seen in his training videos but heard otherwise from not just one but three clinic attendees.

I also used to thing getting yelled at was no big deal it was part of riding with a trainer. If you wanted to get better you had to take that BS with it. I've changed my thinking on that lately. I'm not paying someone to belittle me. I'm my own worst critic I dont need to pay someone to help me with that. (That doesnt read, pat me on the bottom, tell me I'm the greatest when I'm not and handle me with kidd gloves) But I have realized recently how much fun and how much more I absorb and how much faster I progress when I ride with someone who makes the experience fun. 
Getting yelled at is one thing but being abusive and insulting is ridiculous and uncalled for.
I'm sorry some of you had that horrible experience, I think paying for a clinic you didnt get anything from is bad enough!


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## kewpalace

COWCHICK77 said:


> I also used to thing getting yelled at was no big deal it was part of riding with a trainer. If you wanted to get better you had to take that BS with it. I've changed my thinking on that lately. I'm not paying someone to belittle me. I'm my own worst critic I dont need to pay someone to help me with that. (That doesnt read, pat me on the bottom, tell me I'm the greatest when I'm not and handle me with kidd gloves) But I have realized recently how much fun and how much more I absorb and how much faster I progress when I ride with someone who makes the experience fun. Getting yelled at is one thing but being abusive and insulting is ridiculous and uncalled for.


 @COWCHICK77, agree with you. There's yelled at and yelled at. I have one trainer I ride with who will say,"I don't mean to yell at you ... " when I never thought he was LOL. I just tell him, "tell me what I'm doing wrong cuz I can't fix it if I don't know what it is. Be blunt, I can take it." That's what he's doing, but he thinks he's yelling at me and I don't. 

But if he was RUDE about it - nasty, belittling, etc. - then I would not ride with him. I find no excuse for a rude trainer. I don't care how much of a BNT he was/is.


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## COWCHICK77

^^^exactly!


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## mslady254

Ummmmm, yeah, have left going 'whaaaat?' and/or embarrassed or frustrated, but have done more clinics that I felt supported and did learn some good things. I don't think I've ever felt that the total clinic was 'bad' and a waste of the lots of money I spent to attend. Sorry, OP that you experienced that. And super sorry to hear the horror stories others posted about. The worst I had to hear at a clinic was 'how did you not get that?' when I asked a question, said to me for the whole class and auditors to hear. The concept was very confusing, everyone, EVERYONE in the class had this confused look on their face, the instructor had actually contradicted herself more than once 'explaining' it, and so I spoke up and asked a question. Her answer was rude, embarrassing and I never did understand what the heck she was trying to teach us,,,neither did anyone else that I asked later. I won't do another clinic with her. I absolutely knew that she failed to 'teach' the concept and her own insecurity , or whatever, caused her to snap at me. 
OP,hope this is ok, and doesnt side track your thread,,but how about us naming the clnicians that were great to be in a clinic with ? put a positive spin on things and who knows, maybe someone will want to seek out those good clinicians... ?? Without reservation, I would recommend John or Kathy Baar, 5 and 4 Star Parelli Instructors located outside of Lexington, Ky. They are both excellent and I've never heard either of them say an unkind word, I just can't even imagine it, plus they are amazing with horses.

Fay


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## waresbear

I haven't been to many clinics either, 6 I can recall and no real BNT, only really good trainers and teachers. Not one of them yelled or called anybody names, were arrogant or any of that. I guess their parents raised them properly unlike some people! Clinics are pricey things, every single one except for that Showmanship Clinic, I have gotten my money's worth and then some.


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## lostastirrup

thecolorcoal said:


> I found out, after the fact, that the on-site trainer doesn't even like this clinician. My fault for not digging deeper. I looked up her credentials and did the background research, and she seemed to be the real deal. I thought why not? Worst case is I don't get anything from it.
> 
> Well my horse was having a bit of a day and I was anxious to impress this BNT (big name trainer) so I rushed us a bit in the warm up. Maresy called me out on my arrogance and gave a bit of a cow kick to the leg. This brought on the trainer claiming we have no forward (not a lie as stated in previous posts) but her answer to fix it was the opposite of anything that worked in the past.
> 
> The clinic consisted of her telling me to "throw my reins" at the horse to get her to go forward and NOT use my leg. She wanted the horse spun in circles and tapped with the whip to "engage her hind" to trot. My horse doesn't know what the heck this means. She claimed my horse does not leg (not exactly a lie but not exactly true) and doesn't like contact (not true, as with contact [read: NOT HEAVY CONTACT] on the bit she is much more forward).
> 
> I understand what this woman was trying to do to instill forward in the horse but I went back to riding my "usual way" the next day and all the issues from the clinic dissolved. Needless to say I am not sure what her point in her method was... it seemed very "colt starting," and she even said I need to treat the horse like a three year old who knows nothing.
> 
> Now this is a horse who has quite a bit of education on her, even if there are holes, and was completely lost and confused this entire ride. She was a super good sport for putting up with the chaos. Not a lot of horses would have the patience to try and muddle through a very confusing and upsetting ride without losing it themselves, so for that I applaud her.
> 
> Friend told me to try her one more time, so I will. She didn't see us at our best. Not her fault that she came to a conclusion based on what she saw, which definitely was not our brightest moment.
> 
> I've only been to two clinics. First clinic went much better than this and the clinician also noted we had no forward. At least I know forward is an issue we need to deal with, but I'd prefer dealing with it in the way my day-to-day trainer prefers, as that DOES work for us.



Am I allowed to ask who this was, sounds extremely familiar. Like eerily so. If you don't want to post please pm me.


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## thecolorcoal

tinyliny said:


> There's a difference between being direct, and being rude. Some people experience directness as rudeness. But, being called fat or ugly? there's no room for interpretation. It's just rude.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't stand for that, either. Whether I'd paid for it or not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've audited many more clinics than I've participated in. I actually get a lot out of watching from a distance. When you are down in the dirt, you miss a lot. But, of course, nothing is really 'learned' until you can put it into practice yourself.
> 
> 
> Back to the OP . . @*thecolorcoal* . . why did you take this clinic? was there a particular thing you wanted to work on? how many riders were there? were you all riding at the same time, or working one on one, one at a time with the clinician? how much personal attention did you get?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> were other folks also frustrated?



I really just wanted to branch our and try something different. Other folks had way better experiences than me. My horse was late to picking up the trot and threw her head (i was also very anxious to "show off" and she knew it), which gave the impression that she is way behind in her education. So the lady basically told us we have the skills of a brand new baby horse, even though my main 2 trainers disagree with this assessment.


She is also more accomplished and star-studded than both my GP and regular trainer so i thought another set of eyes could help.


Unfortunately her advice was NOT what we needed, as I've said before, and it left me extremely frustrated. At the end I still thanked her for her time. I understand there was not much she could do, considering she saw what she saw and it was not our best moment. I'm not upset at her as a trainer, but I do wish she had given me a few more minutes to warm up and work through some of the horse's resistance that were a direct reflection on my own hyper-emotional state.


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## thecolorcoal

it comforts me to know others have had not-so-good clinic experiences. Thanks for sharing your stories everyone <3


I will try this clinician once more.


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## Foxhunter

I yell when I teach! I learned to teach where there was nothing between me and the English Chanel but a rail fence. 

It is not so much yelling as projecting my voice and believe me, I can project. 

At the funeral of my boss I read a poem. The mike was terrible and kept squeaking and squalling so I refused to take it. The Rector quietly told me that people at the back of the abbey wouldn't hear me. I never shouted but 'projected' and all clearly heard me.


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## AnitaAnne

thecolorcoal said:


> I really just wanted to branch our and try something different. Other folks had way better experiences than me. My horse was late to picking up the trot and threw her head (i was also very anxious to "show off" and she knew it), which gave the impression that she is way behind in her education. So the lady basically told us we have the skills of a brand new baby horse, even though my main 2 trainers disagree with this assessment.
> 
> 
> She is also more accomplished and star-studded than both my GP and regular trainer so i thought another set of eyes could help.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately her advice was NOT what we needed, as I've said before, and it left me extremely frustrated. At the end I still thanked her for her time. I understand there was not much she could do, considering she saw what she saw and it was not our best moment. I'm not upset at her as a trainer, but *I do wish she had given me a few more minutes to warm up and work through some of the horse's resistance that were a direct reflection on my own hyper-emotional state.*



I bolded your last statement because warm up and working through the resistance is something the rider does BEFORE they come into the arena. 

No point wasting your money on having a clinician wait for you to warm the horse up....plus she probably did not realize you weren't warmed up and ready to work. All she could see was a tense rider and bad transitions. 

When attending a clinic, the rider and horse should be ready to work and know what they have to work on. One should be able to say "my transitions need to be sharper" or "my horse is stiffer bending left" etc.


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## thecolorcoal

AnitaAnne said:


> I bolded your last statement because warm up and working through the resistance is something the rider does BEFORE they come into the arena.
> 
> No point wasting your money on having a clinician wait for you to warm the horse up....plus she probably did not realize you weren't warmed up and ready to work. All she could see was a tense rider and bad transitions.
> 
> When attending a clinic, the rider and horse should be ready to work and know what they have to work on. One should be able to say "my transitions need to be sharper" or "my horse is stiffer bending left" etc.


I guess my thought at the time Is i didn't want to bother the rider before me, so I stayed out of the arena... at least I know better now.


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## mmshiro

Foxhunter said:


> The Rector quietly told me that *people at the back of the abbey *wouldn't hear me.


I have a sneaking suspicion that my funeral will not experience such challenges.........


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## Zexious

I treat clinics as something between a lesson and a show--it's an opportunity to learn rather than exhibit, but it also features traits more similar to a show.
I agree the horse should have been warmed up prior to your turn; I'm surprised they didn't have a separate area designated specifically for this. Additionally, the clinician can only be responsible for what they see on that day. If you attend a show and your top-tier horse gives the worst performance of its life (not saying that's akin to what happened here, just giving an example), the judge can't be responsible for taking the rest of its career into account. They pin/note based on what they observe, which is sounds like what happened here.

Just my .02. I hope your next clinic experience is a more pleasant one! c:


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## Foxhunter

As clinics cost a lot I want to get my money's worth! I will not only rode in my session but will also watch others and learn as much as I can. I will ask so many questions the clinician will wonder what they have let themselves in for!


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## Foxhunter

mmshiro said:


> I have a sneaking suspicion that my funeral will not experience such challenges.........


This is the Abbey so you can see the size of it.

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attra...ationId=101&albumid=101&filter=7&ff=318218222


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## ShirtHotTeez

bsms said:


> ....It seems to me a good dressage rider - as I define good - would find a lot of common ground with natural horsemanship. Same with reining, WP, cutting, jumping or trail riding. "Equine tact" ought to apply to any riding. It is also IMHO the hardest thing to learn in riding - the part of riding which really has no end point of success, but that a person always learns more about. It also seems obvious to me that a competitive rider can win while using very little equine tact. It isn't required for "success" unless you define it as your goal. Then it becomes the only success that matters.


If I am understanding you properly what you call "equine tact" is what others call "connection", but even that seems to have a different meaning today, so I might call it "rapport" just to differentiate. So if i'm on the right track here, yes it is possible to be successful without it, if you have ever compete in an event with a horse you barely know you will know that. And I guess you could be trained to top level without that "rapport", but obviously at that level you 'know' the horse very well. When you have that rapport, you and your horse almost anticipate each others needs, you are not working your horse you are working with your horse. Sheesh I thought this was going to be easy to explain!!

But the point i am trying to get to is that it is not so much something that can be "learned" it is something you feel. It is not instant but some people are more tuned to it than others. What really helps is spending 'down time' with your horse. Instead of throwing his feed in the bin and leaving him to eat it, sit nearby and watch him, even talk to him. When grooming, learn his 'tickle' spots or what annoys him. Know his little quirks that make him himself. If you just train for your chosen discipline and never do anything else, there is a whole world of your horse you don't know. I love trail riding because your horse is able to be himself, whereas when you are competing or training or in some other way directing the activities you are expecting your horse to have this 'persona' as you do yourself when putting yourself under the spotlight. So does that make any sense? It does to me but I don't know if i'm getting it across!!! :cowboy:


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## LoriF

waresbear said:


> Okay, if someone was calling me down, giving me garbage information, having people vote on my riding skills and I had paid money for this? I would make damm sure I got my money's worth! I might even leave that clinic with a restraining order against me, I don't let anyone disrespect me and get away with it, I don't care who they are! That post infuriated me!


They would have kicked me out too.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

That's why I'm way picky about who I'll "clinic" or study with. There are too many George Morris wannabes.


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## kewpalace

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> There are too many George Morris wannabes.


And, on the western side, too many Ray Hunt/Dorrance Brothers' wannabes.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

kewpalace said:


> And, on the western side, too many Ray Hunt/Dorrance Brothers' wannabes.


They, at least, were not abusive. The one I mentioned is/was notorious for his snark.


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## Foxhunter

bsms said:


> .
> 
> It seems to me a good dressage rider - as I define good - would find a lot of common ground with natural horsemanship. Same with reining, WP, cutting, jumping or trail riding. "Equine tact" ought to apply to any riding. It is also IMHO the hardest thing to learn in riding - the part of riding which really has no end point of success, but that a person always learns more about. It also seems obvious to me that a competitive rider can win while using very little equine tact. It isn't required for "success" unless you define it as your goal. Then it becomes the only success that matters.


There are people who do get to the top in equestrian sports who have an exceptional horse that takes them there but, that is it. 

Majority of top riders have an affinity with horses, not just the ones they rode and compete on but every horse they get on. 

My rememberer is getting weak but I recall the final round of a world championships, when the top four riders have to swap horses and rode each other's. They just get on hem have a couple of minutes to get the feel amd jump a big round.






What this doesn't show is that before Eddie Mackenzie rode Simona, the pr ions order got her het up and unsettled, deliberately. It takes a good horseman to settle a strange horse, click with it and jump a clear.


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## Knave

I believe that is a true concept @Foxhunter! I wish competitions did it more often. I was in one once where we all drew horses out of a hat. The horse I was riding was an obvious class above (not to be arrogant; I did not make the horse) the others, and there was also a girl riding a horse that should not have been in this level of competition.

She could not ride well, and when we saw this and that she drew the horse I brought, we explained to her that she should simply warm him up and go ride the class on him. If she started trying to cue him up she wouldn’t do well in the class. She must have been a conspiracy type, so she ran over and did everything we had warned her against. The girl ended up looking like quite a fool when the horse was so confused he wouldn’t do anything right. 

I had never before and have not since seen a competition where the drawing of a horse was required (in person). I thought it was brilliant to display horsemanship.


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## Foxhunter

At Christmas we always held a jumping show in the indoor arena. Four serious classes in the morning and all the rest were fun classes. One of those were riding a 'drawn' horse bareback around a course. 

People were laughingly complaining that I wouldn't do these classes - I was course building and judging so how could I? 

So, for the above I was entered. It was a TOTAL fix with the draw and I ended up with a 13.2 pony Pheonix, a great little jumper but he had a good buck to him and a good sense of humour knowing the difference between serious and fun. 

I was also a little bit more than tipsy. 

We set off, it was straight against the clock, Phoenix was going a good clip, when he started to buck, his owner was laughing and when we went past him he clapped his hands and set Pheonix off again. I do not know how I stayed on him as there was nothing much in front of me and just a wriggling mass under me. 

We came second. Absolutely fluke.


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## Knave

Lol! @Foxhunter I can only imagine. Hahahahaha. I ended up drawing that horse that shouldn’t have been there. It was fine, I knew enough tricks to make him look a bit better than he was. He was a gentle horse for sure, he just didn’t have a handle on him to save his life. Kind of an old ranch broke horse, and I used every trick in the book to get him through the pattern. 

I felt bad for the girl for that. It was the only time I had empathy for her, because she was a bossy thing with a rude streak. Her father came up to us both when changing back horses and said, “See, you made that horse look nice.” The girl looked crushed, and really, unless you had some tricks up your sleeve that horse wasn’t capable of doing the pattern.


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## Rod

@thecolorcoal, @Knaveand others- sorry you have had bad experiences at clinics. I've ridden for over 55 years but had very little instruction- basically my grandfather stuck me on a lazy old horse when I was a little kid and told me to make him do what I wanted. 20 years ago when I wanted to show a horse and improve my horsemanship, clinics were the only way I could accomplish that goal. Actually I could have really benefitted from some basic lessons to overcome some bad habits, but I didn't take that route. 

I rode in clinics by Teddy Robinson, Ron Ralls, Lynn Anderson, Sandy Collier, Jon Roeser, Todd Crawford, and Bergen & Slack. Pretty much all big name reined cow horse trainers- not all were great but I learned enough at each one to make it worth going. And all were willing to teach some of what they knew and were pleasant to be around. In my opinion, the best of the bunch was Lynn even though she chewed my butt a little for being too wild in the fence work saying the goal is to exhibit at least SOME control over the horse and cow- something I really needed to hear.

The best clinic however was one I went to just a couple of years ago. Just a few months after Clayton Edsall won the World's Greatest Horseman, he and his assistant trainer stopped by our little town to visit the assistant's brother who lives just a couple of miles from me. It so happened that there was a big ranch rodeo held that same week. The guy putting on the rodeo asked Clayton if he would do a clinic. He charged each rider $150 just to cover his expenses and Clayton's and the assistants' entry to the rodeo. I thought it would be good for my grand daughter so I talked her into going. There were eight riders, three buckaroos from the big ranches in Nevada (Simplot) who were real good hands, one of the buckaroos' brother in law who had a town job and was an intermediate rider, a farmer who was a beginner, a reined cowhorse trainer who had made the intermediate open finals in Reno, a ranch kid who was doing cow horse in high school rodeo, and my grand daughter who is upper intermediate rider. So all but the farmer could ride pretty well, Clayton was fun and he made my grand daughter feel comfortable and welcome. 

The first day when we were all sizing each other up, one of the buckaroos had a palomino mare he had just bought that was real rude in the face. He really had to work to get her to give at all. Clayton worked with him for a while and didn't make much progress. I thought to myself, "In a week I could have that horse giving her face". Clayton asked the buckaroo if he minded if he rode the horse. In 5 minutes he had that mare softened up and riding around giving to the bit. That impressed the heck out of me (and others). 

On the second day my grand daughter had a commitment so I took her place and showed that an old man could take a cow down the fence. Clayton gave me a couple of pointers- horse's position just before the turn and my hand position while circling. Both minor things but helpful. 

So what I am trying to say is don't let one bad experience completely sour you on clinics. With the right clinician you can have a lot of fun and learn something that is difficult to learn elsewhere. 

P.S. Clayton and his assistant's team won the branding and took second place overall in the ranch rodeo.


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## thecolorcoal

Rod said:


> @*thecolorcoal* , @*Knave* and others- sorry you have had bad experiences at clinics. I've ridden for over 55 years but had very little instruction- basically my grandfather stuck me on a lazy old horse when I was a little kid and told me to make him do what I wanted. 20 years ago when I wanted to show a horse and improve my horsemanship, clinics were the only way I could accomplish that goal. Actually I could have really benefitted from some basic lessons to overcome some bad habits, but I didn't take that route.
> 
> I rode in clinics by Teddy Robinson, Ron Ralls, Lynn Anderson, Sandy Collier, Jon Roeser, Todd Crawford, and Bergen & Slack. Pretty much all big name reined cow horse trainers- not all were great but I learned enough at each one to make it worth going. And all were willing to teach some of what they knew and were pleasant to be around. In my opinion, the best of the bunch was Lynn even though she chewed my butt a little for being too wild in the fence work saying the goal is to exhibit at least SOME control over the horse and cow- something I really needed to hear.
> 
> The best clinic however was one I went to just a couple of years ago. Just a few months after Clayton Edsall won the World's Greatest Horseman, he and his assistant trainer stopped by our little town to visit the assistant's brother who lives just a couple of miles from me. It so happened that there was a big ranch rodeo held that same week. The guy putting on the rodeo asked Clayton if he would do a clinic. He charged each rider $150 just to cover his expenses and Clayton's and the assistants' entry to the rodeo. I thought it would be good for my grand daughter so I talked her into going. There were eight riders, three buckaroos from the big ranches in Nevada (Simplot) who were real good hands, one of the buckaroos' brother in law who had a town job and was an intermediate rider, a farmer who was a beginner, a reined cowhorse trainer who had made the intermediate open finals in Reno, a ranch kid who was doing cow horse in high school rodeo, and my grand daughter who is upper intermediate rider. So all but the farmer could ride pretty well, Clayton was fun and he made my grand daughter feel comfortable and welcome.
> 
> The first day when we were all sizing each other up, one of the buckaroos had a palomino mare he had just bought that was real rude in the face. He really had to work to get her to give at all. Clayton worked with him for a while and didn't make much progress. I thought to myself, "In a week I could have that horse giving her face". Clayton asked the buckaroo if he minded if he rode the horse. In 5 minutes he had that mare softened up and riding around giving to the bit. That impressed the heck out of me (and others).
> 
> On the second day my grand daughter had a commitment so I took her place and showed that an old man could take a cow down the fence. Clayton gave me a couple of pointers- horse's position just before the turn and my hand position while circling. Both minor things but helpful.
> 
> So what I am trying to say is don't let one bad experience completely sour you on clinics. With the right clinician you can have a lot of fun and learn something that is difficult to learn elsewhere.
> 
> P.S. Clayton and his assistant's team won the branding and took second place overall in the ranch rodeo.



Thanks rod <3 this was our second clinic. first clinic was in a group and clinician didnt focus too much on us because... we were... not very good. :/ that's ok, I still had fun and learned a ton. This most recent clinic I definitely did not prepare well and was not in the right state of mind, and my horse called me out on it and thus we got labeled as incompetent.


But we've worked on it since. I'm going to give this woman another shot. I've brushed up on what she told us and she did give me some lovely compliments on Tyra. next month we will be ready!


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