# Teaching my mare to ground tie



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

I will go a bit more detail about her in standing tied. Im hoping teaching a horse to stand tied is similar to ground tying and that they can often and easily carry it over.

My mare used to hate being tied, to anything. She was nervous, she didnt like people going behind her. She always danced from left to right and right to left so that she can see whats going on around her. 

She would paw her heart out when I went to go do something while I left her tied, even if it was just for 2mins. She would get really impatient and just paw non stop. She would call for me, whiny, show frustration when she couldnt see me. (This for the most part was all at the old barn). She would just paw harder and harder and sometimes stomp her feet.

I could never get her to stand when grooming cause she was always moving her HQ. All 4 of those feet were constantly dancing. Not just left and right but forward and back as well.

Dog walks by, she has to turn to face the dog to see whats going on. If someone was sweeping behind her, she would have to turn to get a better view of whats going on.

Now when she stands tied, she just stands period. From what Ive seen, she doesnt get nervous anymore, shes as comfortable as can be when tied. I can go do stuff with her tied and she wont throw a fit. She rarely paws anymore (and this is a huge accomplishment because she was a furious pawer before). If she paws, then I usually stomp my foot and say "quit" and she immediately stops. Now I can step out of the barn if I wanted and she wont be looking for me. She just stands there and quietly.

When people walk by, she doesnt swing her butt around anymore. She is so much easier now to groom because i dont have to constantly tap her HQ to move her hind over. If I go somewhere and come back, she will still nicker when she sees or hears me come back in. The BO's cat walked by right behind my mare the other day and it didnt phase her.

Just like if I go to the very end of the barn and get something, or in the arena and set up stuff, put away stuff. She turn to face me and will watch me. For the most part, my mare wants to know where i am all the time.

I have a good feeling that the time where I got her to stand tied for about an hour in the barn with about 8 other horses (most were school masters), and her seeing how the other horses didnt paw, didnt fuss, didnt do anything but just stand patiently really benefited her. This was about 2 months ago.

Ive had a few people ask me how ive gotten her to stand tied so quietly and i honestly couldnt answer it because i dont even know what i did myself.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Far as tying, you taught her patience, relaxation and the knowledge that pawing got her nowhere
Far aground tying, since I show many of my horses at halter also, I teach them not only to stand, but to square up. I then groom them that way, saddle them, ect, and they don't move.
Easy to expand that to having them stand ground tied in an arena, while I set up trail, ect.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Far as tying, you taught her patience, relaxation and the knowledge that pawing got her nowhere
> Far aground tying, since I show many of my horses at halter also, I teach them not only to stand, but to square up. I then groom them that way, saddle them, ect, and they don't move.
> Easy to expand that to having them stand ground tied in an arena, while I set up trail, ect.


Oh ok thanks. Her huge progress in standing tied came totally unexpected. Her impatience when tied was also one of my biggest peeves of hers. Im just pleasantly surprised because i never really targeted her patience specifically.

I have groomed her before while in the arena but i would hold the lead, not ground tie.

Im more prioritizing my need in getting her to stop trying to circle me.


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

NOW, put her in a spot, and EXPECT her to stay there. Groom her, pick her feet, etc, NATURALLY,( not leaning forward, ready to jump at the lead rope ), if she moves, put her back, say stand, go on with whatever you are doing. No praise, because she is doing a NORMAL thing that is EXPECTED. Think about you doing your job at work...would it have been WEIRD if your boss had RUN up to you everytime you did a kind of normal thing, and said "OMG, Hoofpic, that was SO amazing the way you made that coffee!!!!" Or whatever...remember, it is not the praise which TEACHEShorses, it is the proper timing in the release of pressure.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

greentree said:


> NOW, put her in a spot, and EXPECT her to stay there. Groom her, pick her feet, etc, NATURALLY,( not leaning forward, ready to jump at the lead rope ), if she moves, put her back, say stand, go on with whatever you are doing.


Ok, but verbal que of "stand" isnt enough for her. So I most likely will have to resort to giving a quick sharp downyard tug on the lead when I say "Stand"



> No praise, because she is doing a NORMAL thing that is EXPECTED.


Good point thanks for mentioning it. No priase because im correcting her, not teaching her something. If she wont stand, I have to make it difficult on her.



> remember, it is not the praise which TEACHEShorses, it is the proper timing in the release of pressure.


Yes


----------



## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

If you go back to your thread "a couple of questions" you have asked this before and gotten advice before.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Whinnie said:


> If you go back to your thread "a couple of questions" you have asked this before and gotten advice before.


Oh ok.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Hoofpic, stand in front of her, lead over her neck, hold you hand up like a stop sign, tell her stand. Step to the side a bit and with your left hand touching the horse's neck, walk to her shoulder, turn away, come around to in front of her and give her the stop sign and stand. This time, hand on horse, walk to her hip, turn away and back to the front. Then the far hip. Always turn away not toward her. Your hand on her creates a connection. Again, stop sign and stand and completely circle her. Pop a treat in her mouth if she hasn't moved. If she moves, put her back, don't yank on her head. A few treats help provide incentive to do as you ask. When your can circle her three or four times without her moving, do it without touching. Often the horse will move and that's ok, just put it back, stop and stand and go back to touching. She will get so you can make a large circle around her if you give her a treat each time she does well. When you give her a treat extend your arm so she has to turn her head away from your body to get it.


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Whinnie said:


> If you go back to your thread "a couple of questions" you have asked this before and gotten advice before.


You are kidding.


----------



## tinaev (Dec 2, 2012)

greentree said:


> NOW, put her in a spot, and EXPECT her to stay there. Groom her, pick her feet, etc, NATURALLY,( not leaning forward, ready to jump at the lead rope ), if she moves, put her back, say stand, go on with whatever you are doing. No praise, because she is doing a NORMAL thing that is EXPECTED. Think about you doing your job at work...would it have been WEIRD if your boss had RUN up to you everytime you did a kind of normal thing, and said "OMG, Hoofpic, that was SO amazing the way you made that coffee!!!!" Or whatever...remember, it is not the praise which TEACHEShorses, it is the proper timing in the release of pressure.


I don't claim to know anything about horse training but the above is how I taught Rio to ground tie. It came out of pure laziness because I was tired of walking really far back and forth from the barn to the hitching post. So I started just putting him as close to the barn opening as possible and I expected him to stay there. If he moved, I put him back. I didn't make a fuss about it (it never occurred to me to do so because in my mind I wasn't trying to train a certain behavior) and I didn't nag small movements. He could shift his weight, look around, that's fine but those four feet needed to stay where I put them. 

He caught on really quick and that habit of staying where I put him really helped me teach him to shimmy up to things for mounting and then stand still in front of the item. I didn't realize realize how much easier his ground tying skills made my life until I tried to do these same behaviors (which in my mind are "normal" now) with our other horse and just ended up being so frustrated.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Saddlebag said:


> Hoofpic, stand in front of her, lead over her neck, hold you hand up like a stop sign, tell her stand. Step to the side a bit and with your left hand touching the horse's neck, walk to her shoulder, turn away, come around to in front of her and give her the stop sign and stand. This time, hand on horse, walk to her hip, turn away and back to the front. Then the far hip. Always turn away not toward her. Your hand on her creates a connection. Again, stop sign and stand and completely circle her. Pop a treat in her mouth if she hasn't moved. If she moves, put her back, don't yank on her head. A few treats help provide incentive to do as you ask. When your can circle her three or four times without her moving, do it without touching. Often the horse will move and that's ok, just put it back, stop and stand and go back to touching. She will get so you can make a large circle around her if you give her a treat each time she does well. When you give her a treat extend your arm so she has to turn her head away from your body to get it.


Interesting. Thank you, I will need to try this tomorrow.

What do you mean "always turn away, never towards her?" If Im next to her and I turn away, I will eventually need to turn to face her.

The good thing is that she is already familiar with the hand stop sign. I do it sometimes when Im bringing her in towards me and I get her to woah.

I will probably switch to my 15ft lead for this, the 8ft one is just too short to really do any circle around her.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

As you walk down her side, you will be facing opposite to her, left hand making contact. When you return to in front, turn away from her body so you can no longer touch her, when you return to your spot in front of her. If you turn toward her body you will still be beside her. You want to introduce her to standing without you touching her. Don't talk to her as you do this, other than to tell her stand when you hold your hand up. Your lead will be tossed over her neck. Better yet, do this in a paddock with no halter and lead. They create a mental connection and what works better is when done at liberty.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Saddlebag said:


> As you walk down her side, you will be facing opposite to her, left hand making contact. When you return to in front, turn away from her body so you can no longer touch her, when you return to your spot in front of her. If you turn toward her body you will still be beside her. You want to introduce her to standing without you touching her. Don't talk to her as you do this, other than to tell her stand when you hold your hand up. Your lead will be tossed over her neck. Better yet, do this in a paddock with no halter and lead. They create a mental connection and what works better is when done at liberty.


Hmm ok thanks. Just trying to get a mental image of this in my head.


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I think you should be ground tying her in the barn aisle while you groom her. It gives YOU something to focus on (grooming), and gives her a reason to stand still(she likes getting groomed). 
What other training are you working on with her?


----------



## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

How to Teach a Horse Groundwork - Bing video


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

greentree said:


> I think you should be ground tying her in the barn aisle while you groom her. It gives YOU something to focus on (grooming), and gives her a reason to stand still(she likes getting groomed).
> What other training are you working on with her?


I dont even know if horses are allowed untied in the barn aisle. I could get in trouble. I know I can have her loose in the arena but only if im there as well and theres no other horses in the barn, otherwise the BO and trainer are really against it for safety reasons. 

I know for one, we arent allowed to turn our horses loose. We are allowed to have our horses untied in the arena but only when theres no other horses in the arena and when we are doing stuff like ground tying, playing with the ball etc. 

I will let her loose sometimes if im just hanging out with my mare in the barn at night when its dark out and no one else is there. I like to see her get her bucks and kicks out. Turning her loose was one of my fav things I liked to do to her at the old barn. She would just run up to the mirrors and look at herself lol. Now that we have brand new mirrors just put up at the new barn, she is so happy and fascinated by them. One night when I was there, I let her loose and she would just stand in front of the mirror for 5mins and stare at herself. I bring her back to me and she goes back to the mirrors.

If I do this in the aisle, my mare will just wander off and sniff the buckets.

I was going to say I could do it in the roundpen but with other horses being around her, thats a big distraction.

I did just recently get her warmed up to the big arena ball. The good news is that I no longer need to buy one as the big ball is for everyone to use. It took me two tries but the second time, she was licking and sniffing it and pushing it around with her nose and going after the ball (at a walk still) when I move it. I can move the ball towards her and she wont freak out anymore. So that was really encouraging to see. 

BO watched and said I did a good job. But it was his advice passed onto me in suggesting me letting her constantly move forward WITH the ball to get her to warm up to it. This was on Xmas day when him and I were talking for over an hour. He got to know me a lot better. Eventually I would like to be able to kick the ball and have her chase it. Maybe even roll it around her while she is ground tied.

Ive been doing the logs as well, weaving her through narrow logs, doing turns etc. Over the past week ive been putting those logs parrelel to each other so i would just walk her over them with her and she would have to lift her feet each time she steps over. I was told this is a good routine (forgot the reason behind it). Wish we had more logs but we only have maybe 12 logs so i usually have to circle her and run through it more times.

The tarp I only did once with her but I wanted to tackle the ball first then the taIrp.

Picking up the feet have improved, she knows what Im asking of her. Shes not perfect (but you cant expect any horse to be) as she will still have her occasional time where she will refuse to pick up her foot when I ask. But then I just stand up and tell her "no" or "quit".


Ive been doing the ground tying with her every 2-3 days over the past couple weeks. I try to mix and match what we do so that she doesnt know what we are going to do when i bring her in and gives her variety and keeps her mind stimulated.

Setting up the logs and obstacles, takes 20mins to step up and tear down and only 5mins to run through it lol.

Im going to start desentizing her to areas around the barn where she isnt 100% comfortable with yet. Im confident this will have a calming affect on her.


----------



## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

Hoofpic said:


> I dont even know if horses are allowed untied in the barn aisle. I could get in trouble. I know I can have her loose in the arena but only if im there as well and theres no other horses in the barn, otherwise the BO and trainer are really against it for safety reasons.


Go back and read greentree's post. She did not say to turn your mare loose in the aisle. If you mare is untied, you should be right there to be able to grab the lead or have a long enough lead you can hold the end of it while the horse thinks it is not tied. She suggested using the aisle to practice ground tying so your mare is not as likely to swing around and circle you. That means YOU ARE THERE and will correct her INSTANTLY if she moves. Just like all the video's I gave you a link for.

Every time you have the halter and lead on your mare, you can practice ground tying. Grooming, cleaning feet, standing in the arena among distractions. Watch the videos over and over to understand the timing of correction and notice that even if the horse lifts a leg to move forward or back, it is corrected instantly.

Again, no where was it suggested that you turn your mare loose in the barn or elsewhere to do as she pleases. If you are going to not tie your mare and then just walk off and leave her, THEN she is loose.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Whinnie said:


> Go back and read greentree's post. She did not say to turn your mare loose in the aisle. If you mare is untied, you should be right there to be able to grab the lead or have a long enough lead you can hold the end of it while the horse thinks it is not tied. She suggested using the aisle to practice ground tying so your mare is not as likely to swing around and circle you. That means YOU ARE THERE and will correct her INSTANTLY if she moves. Just like all the video's I gave you a link for.
> 
> Every time you have the halter and lead on your mare, you can practice ground tying. Grooming, cleaning feet, standing in the arena among distractions. Watch the videos over and over to understand the timing of correction and notice that even if the horse lifts a leg to move forward or back, it is corrected instantly.
> 
> Again, no where was it suggested that you turn your mare loose in the barn or elsewhere to do as she pleases. If you are going to not tie your mare and then just walk off and leave her, THEN she is loose.


Oh I see, ok my bad, thanks for clarfiying for me. I get it now!

Interesting concept! Never seen anyone do it thats forsure.

Im checking out those videos right now.

It would be interesting to see how my mare does in the aisle.

Do you think by teaching her how to ground tie better, it could perhaps be the solution to her stop trying to circle me when shes next to me standing

Reason I ask is because I hate to change up methods in the way I correct her (I remember consistency is the key for them to catch on...you need to do the exact same method each time when correcting), but obviously me circling my mare in the opposite direction in 2 circles didnt work.


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Is this a broken record????


----------



## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

Really? You have never seen anyone drop the lead rope in the aisle to groom and tack up their horse? That is the best way to teach ground tying. It has a purpose. It is done ALL THE TIME. 

There is a little search bar at the upper right of any of these pages. Put in key words like "ground tying" or any other subject you have a question on. You will get tons of threads, past and present on any subject discussed here. Maybe you won't have to ask the same questions over and over. In fact, look at the bottom of this page. There are 5 threads with discussion regarding ground tying and tying.

Also, there is a thread regarding horse terminology. You should study it. I believe you have difficulty, in part, understanding advice given because you do not really know the terms used here. Search you tube and bing videos as well using key words. Tons of videos exist to show you how to do things.

You have had your mare for 6 months and been involved in horses far longer than that by your own words. You go to see your mare for hours every day. You should be much farther along in your knowledge and skills. It does no good to ask questions when you don't understand the answers.


----------



## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

Whoops, posted twice


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

FIRST, your horse needs to be practicing being tied for HOURS and learn to be patient!! I have taught this to my horses, so that when my Vet comes to do yearly shots, etc., we leave them tied and go visit in the house for an hour. I am that confident that they will be standing there, calmly waiting for me when we are done. It takes practice and you won't get anywhere training to ground tie until you achieve this.
Julie Goodnight has a great method of teaching ground tying. Circling is teaching your horse to circle and stand and then circle and stand. It doesn't reinforce standing still, which is the core of ground tying. She had a recent episode called, "Texas Two Step" where she helped the owner of 17hh champion mare who had learned to shimmy away from the mounting block, to stand and calmly wait for her rider to mount. Julie took the lead, the owner put the mounting block next to her horse, and Julie kept the mare's attention on HER, and on standing square and ignoring any other stimuli. They were training in an outside arena, with people and horses walking and riding by. THIS is how you get your horse to learn this skill. I am training this right now. It was the one thing that my great older herd never learned, because I didn't know how to train for it.
Also:
Ground-Tying Test | The Trail Rider


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

"Reason I ask is because I hate to change up methods in the way I correct her (I remember consistency is the key for them to catch on...you need to do the exact same method each time when correcting), but obviously me circling my mare in the opposite direction in 2 circles didnt work."

Ummmm, not if it isn't working....


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Whinnie said:


> Really? You have never seen anyone drop the lead rope in the aisle to groom and tack up their horse? That is the best way to teach ground tying. It has a purpose. It is done ALL THE TIME.
> 
> There is a little search bar at the upper right of any of these pages. Put in key words like "ground tying" or any other subject you have a question on. You will get tons of threads, past and present on any subject discussed here. Maybe you won't have to ask the same questions over and over. In fact, look at the bottom of this page. There are 5 threads with discussion regarding ground tying and tying.
> 
> ...


I dont go see my mare everyday, 4-5 times a week.

I didnt really dig deep into horses until April-May of this year. Yes I was involved prior, but in terms of really getting involved, my oppurtunity didnt come until May.

No I have never seen anyone tach up in the aisle with their lead on the ground.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Corporal said:


> FIRST, your horse needs to be practicing being tied for HOURS and learn to be patient!! I have taught this to my horses, so that when my Vet comes to do yearly shots, etc., we leave them tied and go visit in the house for an hour. I am that confident that they will be standing there, calmly waiting for me when we are done. It takes practice and you won't get anywhere training to ground tie until you achieve this.
> Julie Goodnight has a great method of teaching ground tying. Circling is teaching your horse to circle and stand and then circle and stand. It doesn't reinforce standing still, which is the core of ground tying. She had a recent episode called, "Texas Two Step" where she helped the owner of 17hh champion mare who had learned to shimmy away from the mounting block, to stand and calmly wait for her rider to mount. Julie took the lead, the owner put the mounting block next to her horse, and Julie kept the mare's attention on HER, and on standing square and ignoring any other stimuli. They were training in an outside arena, with people and horses walking and riding by. THIS is how you get your horse to learn this skill. I am training this right now. It was the one thing that my great older herd never learned, because I didn't know how to train for it.
> Also:
> Ground-Tying Test | The Trail Rider


My mare has become very very good in standing tied.



greentree said:


> "Reason I ask is because I hate to change up methods in the way I correct her (I remember consistency is the key for them to catch on...you need to do the exact same method each time when correcting), but obviously me circling my mare in the opposite direction in 2 circles didnt work."
> 
> Ummmm, not if it isn't working....


Time to change it up as for her trying to circle me.


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I don't believe that your mare is very, very good at standing tied, if she screws around when you lead her. Spend time training her to constantly pay attention to you and lead like a lead line pony with a small child on her back. THESE horses are golden and can be trusted to LISTEN to the adult leading them!
You CANNOT train too many perfect ground manners to your horse! Training these do NOT strain their bones or muscles or their minds. Horses are designed to listen to authority. Your description tells me that she doesn't believe that you are anything but one step higher in the herd and NOT the herd leader.


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> ... No I have never seen anyone tach up in the aisle with their lead on the ground.



Well, I have some recent pics of tacking Chief in the aisle not tied. 

I would not start with tacking up if I was you, I would start with grooming. Using a long lead line, long enough to go a few feet behind her. Maybe 12-16 feet.

Groom while holding near the end with one hand, letting it drape to the ground. So you can take it up and give her a firm "Whoa", placing her back to the original spot when she moves. 

When you get directly behind you can toss the line over her head and work the other side. It takes some practice to toss effectively, she should be desensitized to the line flopping around her by now anyway.
















I suppose I am wrong to allow Chief to look at me and turn his head as long as he keeps his feet still. But hey, so what.















Since the line is laying on the ground between my horse and me, there is no change in tension when I drop it for a moment to use both hand to pick his feet .... or anything else.

Then I proceed to just leave it on the ground on the same side I am on for longer and longer times. At this point in time I know he is not trained to ground tie; however, it is a start towards it. And he is comfortable and relaxed standing untied for grooming and tacking, even moreso than when he is tied.































A *firm Whoa* is a better verbal tool for this than 'no' or 'quit', at least in my opinion.


----------



## AtlasLuna (Nov 1, 2015)

I am curious why you purchased this horse? She seems to have a bad attitude (pinning her ears when you simply ask her to back up in your video), she's bad about you picking her feet, and you can't ride her. What's the draw? 

I worry that she will hurt you; you really should have a forgiving horse when you're such a novice. Sorry if these are repeat questions!


----------



## jenkat86 (May 20, 2014)

Hoofpic said:


> If I do this in the aisle, my mare will just wander off and sniff the buckets.
> 
> I was going to say I could do it in the roundpen but with other horses being around her, thats a big distraction.


My horse wanted to wander off and sniff buckets, too. She wanted to walk down to the next stall and see what leftovers were in there. She wanted to do anything _but_ stand still. That's the WHOLE learning process right there. As other's have said, when she moves away from where you tell her to stand, you correct her by bringing her right back to where you had her before and say a nice, firm "WHOA." Remember..."whoa" should always mean stop. Do it 84834579834759834 times if you have to. Eventually, she will get the hint. _THEN_ you bring her into an area, such as a roundpen (although I dislike a roudpen for this) with more distraction and start all over. She's not going to get it in one day. She probably won't even get it in a week...but just stick to one method and see it through.


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

anndankev said:


> Well, I have some recent pics of tacking Chief in the aisle not tied.
> 
> View attachment 734937


Thanks for posting these pictures of Chief. I well behaved horse is a joy to have around! I also liked how your saddle is properly positioned and you have a few inches of padding in front of the pommel, for adequate protection.




anndankev said:


> A *firm Whoa* is a better verbal tool for this than 'no' or 'quit', at least in my opinion.


:iagree:


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Corporal said:


> I don't believe that your mare is very, very good at standing tied, if she screws around when you lead her. Spend time training her to constantly pay attention to you and lead like a lead line pony with a small child on her back. THESE horses are golden and can be trusted to LISTEN to the adult leading them!
> You CANNOT train too many perfect ground manners to your horse! Training these do NOT strain their bones or muscles or their minds. Horses are designed to listen to authority. Your description tells me that she doesn't believe that you are anything but one step higher in the herd and NOT the herd leader.


No what I meant was that when standing tied she is good in rarely pawing anymore. She has become pretty patient and a drastic difference from when i brought her to this barn. 

What are some of the best tasks to do to get them to constantly pay attention to you.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

anndankev said:


> Well, I have some recent pics of tacking Chief in the aisle not tied.
> 
> I would not start with tacking up if I was you, I would start with grooming. Using a long lead line, long enough to go a few feet behind her. Maybe 12-16 feet.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the pics. 

I will mention that this past summer, I did have her in the arena a few times and (even though I didnt have the lead completely on the floor) I did have enough slack in it that it draped close to the ground. I only did this a few times before having to attend to other things but from what I remember, aside from taking a step on occasion she stood still really well.

I didnt get around to doing this today cause i ran out of time and ended up running into my trainer but I will tomorrow.

I did desentize my mare to the tarp today with success! (Only the 2nd time Ive introduced the tarp with her) but I was able to get her to step on the tarp with 1 foot first, then both front feet, then all 4 feet, then walked over it completely with all 4 feet a few times.

Btw, I use a firm whoa when I want to stop her in her tracks. I guess I could use a firm whoa as well when she spooks eh.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

AtlasLuna said:


> I am curious why you purchased this horse? She seems to have a bad attitude (pinning her ears when you simply ask her to back up in your video), she's bad about you picking her feet, and you can't ride her. What's the draw?
> 
> I worry that she will hurt you; you really should have a forgiving horse when you're such a novice. Sorry if these are repeat questions!


Because the OP could not wait until he was actually ready to purchase, he bought far to early, compounded by the fact that someone took advantage of his inexperience and sold him a totally unsuitable horse fir a first horse. It really is sad all around, and I have always said and hoped that the mare does not end up paying the price.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

jenkat86 said:


> My horse wanted to wander off and sniff buckets, too. She wanted to walk down to the next stall and see what leftovers were in there. She wanted to do anything _but_ stand still. That's the WHOLE learning process right there. As other's have said, when she moves away from where you tell her to stand, you correct her by bringing her right back to where you had her before and say a nice, firm "WHOA." Remember..."whoa" should always mean stop. Do it 84834579834759834 times if you have to. Eventually, she will get the hint. _THEN_ you bring her into an area, such as a roundpen (although I dislike a roudpen for this) with more distraction and start all over. She's not going to get it in one day. She probably won't even get it in a week...but just stick to one method and see it through.


Thanks. I will admit, she has gotten pretty good ground tying in the arena but I feel if I do it in the aisle, then go back to the arena, then I will see a bigger improvement and perhaps even quicker.

Im thinking perhaps its a bit easier for any horse to stand still when ground tied in an aisle and being groomed as opposed to in an arena and me just doing cirlces around them.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> Because the OP could not wait until he was actually ready to purchase, he bought far to early, compounded by the fact that someone took advantage of his inexperience and sold him a totally unsuitable horse fir a first horse. It really is sad all around, and I have always said and hoped that the mare does not end up paying the price.


Yes I get it, I get it, you are not happy. She wont pay the price, trust me Im making well sure of it.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

greentree said:


> "Reason I ask is because I hate to change up methods in the way I correct her (I remember consistency is the key for them to catch on...you need to do the exact same method each time when correcting), but obviously me circling my mare in the opposite direction in 2 circles didnt work."
> 
> Ummmm, not if it isn't working....


I was watching one of john Lyons videos last night and correcting a horse who doesnt stand still when asked. What he does is, he walks them forward 4 or 5 steps, then gets them to swing their HQ around, then backs them up 4 or 5 steps.

Interesting technique, I could see it being more effective than circling them in the opposite direction 2 circles.


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Hoofpic said:


> I was watching one of john Lyons videos last night and correcting a horse who doesnt stand still when asked. What he does is, he walks them forward 4 or 5 steps, then gets them to swing their HQ around, then backs them up 4 or 5 steps.
> 
> Interesting technique, I could see it being more effective than circling them in the opposite direction 2 circles.


It is ALL ineffective if you are not in a position of authority.

And, the TECHNIQUE makes absolutely NO difference if you are in a position of authority!


----------



## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

greentree said:


> It is ALL ineffective if you are not in a position of authority.
> 
> And, the TECHNIQUE makes absolutely NO difference if you are in a position of authority!


 Absolutely the truth. That is the entire problem OP has.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

greentree said:


> It is ALL ineffective if you are not in a position of authority.
> 
> And, the TECHNIQUE makes absolutely NO difference if you are in a position of authority!


What am i suppose to say to that hen?


----------



## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

Hoofpic said:


> I dont go see my mare everyday, 4-5 times a week.
> 
> I didnt really dig deep into horses until April-May of this year. Yes I was involved prior, but in terms of really getting involved, my oppurtunity didnt come until May.
> 
> No I have never seen anyone tach up in the aisle with their lead on the ground.


 You do contradict yourself a lot. You posted about a month ago that you were not going to see your mare for one night and it was the *first time ever* you had not gone to see her since you had her. You posted that you would spend every single weekend at the barn for 12 to 14 hours each Saturday and Sunday. I am only going by your own words. Even if you have not been heavily involved until June of this year, and only saw her 5 times a week, by your own words you have spent about 30 hours a week (including the weekends with 12+ hours each day) with your horse. That is why I believe you should have more skill and knowledge by now.


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> I was watching one of john Lyons videos last night and *correcting a horse who doesnt stand still when asked*. What he does is, he walks them forward 4 or 5 steps, then gets them to swing their HQ around, then backs them up 4 or 5 steps.
> 
> Interesting technique, I could see it being *more effective than circling them in the opposite direction 2 circles*.


As far as I recall what you are now calling *circling them in the opposite direction 2 circles* began as an exercise to learn to lead her properly, and for her to yield her shoulder to pressure (indirect/implied by turning in to her) or (direct pressure from the lead line making contact under her chin). And you formerly called this 'leading away from you'.

Am I correct in this?

If so, then it really was *not* a correction for *anything*, let alone a correction for *everything*.

I really do not see how it could be thought to be used for *correcting a horse who doesnt stand still when asked*, as in the John Lyons video. (Which I have not watched).

So I am not seeing how you are correlating the two things.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Whinnie said:


> You do contradict yourself a lot. You posted about a month ago that you were not going to see your mare for one night and it was the *first time ever* you had not gone to see her since you had her. .


Your timing is a bit off. That was almost 3 months ago that I said that. The first day that I did not go see my mare was about a month at the new barn. 



> You posted that you would spend every single weekend at the barn for 12 to 14 hours each Saturday and Sunday..


Again, this was at the OLD barn and a big part was because I was doing night feed at that place everyday and barn chores and mucking a couple other boarders paddocks. I hung out a lot at the old barn, doing stuff, not neccesarily with my mare. This is why at the new barn I have a MUCH different approach and I spend probably 10% of the time there than the old barn mainly because I dont do any barn chores there.



> Even if you have not been heavily involved until June of this year, and only saw her 5 times a week, by your own words you have spent about 30 hours a week (including the weekends with 12+ hours each day) with your horse. That is why I believe you should have more skill and knowledge by now.


At the old barn, I was too pre-occupied with feed, refilling water, helping with other boarders requests. I was pretty much the person to go to because i was there more than the barn helper was. The barn was massive, it had over 50 horses so I had a lot to do.

I also didnt focus on lessons nearly as much as I should have at this time.

Ive spent 10 times more valuable and beneficial time with my mare and progressed forward with her since arriving at the new barn than I did at the old barn mainly because I have all my time freed up. Time that was spent on other stuff at the old barn, that wasnt the best idea in my situation.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

anndankev said:


> As far as I recall what you are now calling *circling them in the opposite direction 2 circles* began as an exercise to learn to lead her properly, and for her to yield her shoulder to pressure (indirect/implied by turning in to her) or (direct pressure from the lead line making contact under her chin). And you formerly called this 'leading away from you'.
> 
> Am I correct in this?
> 
> ...



Well similar train of thought but not the same. I know my trainer wanted me to circle my mare in 2 circles (away from me) after every time she tries to circle me because by making her go in the opposite direction it counteracts what shes trying to do when trying to circle around me. She wants to go one way, I then make her go the opposite way.

Also my trainer is big on getting a horse to yield their shoulder to you and not their HQ because when you get them to swing their HQ around, you are also (unintentionally) getting them to bring their forequarters your direction, (and this was why shes always wanted me to lead my mare AWAY from me at all times) so that she doesnt ever go in my direction.) And also she said for safety reasons just in case that horse decides to take off, if you yield the HQ around, they will run over you because their forequarters is also coming into you, as opposed to yielding thier shoulder away from you, you are towards the side of them.

John Lyons method was basically, walk them forward 4 or 5 steps, swing their HQ around and then back them up 4 or 5 steps. Then get them to stand again.


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Again, I have not seen the John Lyons video. Possibly what you are calling getting them to swing their HQ around is disengaging the HQ. 

Disengaging is not like spinning a bottle, the forequarters do not turn inward.

What you are now calling circling them in the opposite direction for 2 circles is not circling at all. It is yielding the shoulder, or maybe turning on the HQ, or stepping away from you, or your turning to the outside. Again, it is not like spinning a bottle. The HQ should not swing in toward you while you are leading (moving), you should retain forward motion.

In my opinion, to horse people, circling indicates you have the horse going around you.

I do feel the poster that has been suggesting you work on common terminology is on the right track.


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Hoofpic, could you go back and read your previous threads where we have discussed this AT LEAST three times?


----------



## jenkat86 (May 20, 2014)

So, again, why are you not just listening to your trainer, and only your trainer? Please don't read this as if I'm frustrated, I'm not. For discussion sake, I'm genuinely stumped as to why you are taking information from your trainer, and online video, and online forum members. 

Back to what other's are saying about your leadership abilities with your horse...all that, up there that I just typed..about you taking info from all these different sources and bouncing around between them all, that's not what strong leaders do. They take ONE solid piece of information. They tell themselves it is going to work. They apply it. They KEEP applying it, consistently, for as long as it takes the horse to get it. You are dabbling in all these different methods because you don't have confidence that method 1 will work. If you did have that confidence, you would see it through. Have you ever watched YOUR trainer successfully teach a horse something new? Have you witnessed, in person, the "Ahaa!" moment between a different horse and trainer? I don't care if you saw John Lyons, or Warwick Schiller teach a colt down to do something...because you saw a 5 minute clip of something that took weeks or months to teach. OP, in all honesty, there is nothing wrong with wanting to know as much as you can...but you have to be specific in what you apply to your horse. ESPECIALLY your greenie.

Back to the original topic, ground tying. 


Hoofpic said:


> No what I meant was that when standing tied she is good in rarely pawing anymore. She has become pretty patient and a drastic difference from when i brought her to this barn.
> 
> What are some of the best tasks to do to get them to constantly pay attention to you.


If your horse is "rarely" pawing, or is "pretty patient" but not completely patient...then she's NOT good at standing tied. Tie her to a pole for 2 hours ever day- in the arena with people riding around and activity going on. Leave her alone...don't even look at her, because trust me- it will bother you a lot more than it will bother her. Do this before you start trying out ground tying. Please.


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

What jenkat said!

Almost every green horse trainer I have ever known tied horses up, usually saddled, and LEFT THEM there. Like a rental string. Saddle at 9, ride one at a time, after riding, go back to tied, unsaddled at 4.


----------



## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

I'm not going to pretend my horse is good at tying because he definitely isn't. When I first got him within the hour he broke 2 lead ropes from pulling back. If I had a solid tree I would tie him to it and let him sort it out himself but I don't unfortunately...

Ground tying he's not perfect either but I can walk away to my car and get my saddle and come back and he's still standing in the same place. It takes work ! I wanted to practice tying this month but it's to wet unfortunately. 

Just to feel like a broken record myself, where is your trainer ? Why isn't she helping you? You're not riding by the sounds of it so atleast make some use of her.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

anndankev said:


> Again, I have not seen the John Lyons video. Possibly what you are calling getting them to swing their HQ around is disengaging the HQ.
> 
> Disengaging is not like spinning a bottle, the forequarters do not turn inward.
> 
> ...


When I disengage, I have enough slack in the lead so that when I look at the HQ, im not pulling them into me either. And they keep their front feet stationary.

Sorry my bad, thought it was Lyons but it wasnt.

Here is the video.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

greentree said:


> Hoofpic, could you go back and read your previous threads where we have discussed this AT LEAST three times?


Because Im still trying to find the exact posts.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

jenkat86 said:


> So, again, why are you not just listening to your trainer, and only your trainer? Please don't read this as if I'm frustrated, I'm not. For discussion sake, I'm genuinely stumped as to why you are taking information from your trainer, and online video, and online forum members.
> 
> Back to what other's are saying about your leadership abilities with your horse...all that, up there that I just typed..about you taking info from all these different sources and bouncing around between them all, that's not what strong leaders do. They take ONE solid piece of information. They tell themselves it is going to work. They apply it. They KEEP applying it, consistently, for as long as it takes the horse to get it. You are dabbling in all these different methods because you don't have confidence that method 1 will work. If you did have that confidence, you would see it through. Have you ever watched YOUR trainer successfully teach a horse something new? Have you witnessed, in person, the "Ahaa!" moment between a different horse and trainer? I don't care if you saw John Lyons, or Warwick Schiller teach a colt down to do something...because you saw a 5 minute clip of something that took weeks or months to teach. OP, in all honesty, there is nothing wrong with wanting to know as much as you can...but you have to be specific in what you apply to your horse. ESPECIALLY your greenie.


Just because im listening to others on here and watching videos, doesnt mean im going about trying every single thing. Im just observing and listening for the most part. Im curious.

Im not apply nearly as many methods and changing things up nearly as often as you guys think. I am trying one method and sticking to it. I stick to it and feel confident that method is going to work. And it has for a bunch of things for far! Its just this one method suggested by my trainer of "circling her away from me in 2 circles" is one that didnt work. So im back to the drawing board on this one observing others. Nothing wrong with that. 

Back to the original topic, ground tying. 



> If your horse is "rarely" pawing, or is "pretty patient" but not completely patient...then she's NOT good at standing tied. Tie her to a pole for 2 hours ever day- in the arena with people riding around and activity going on. Leave her alone...don't even look at her, because trust me- it will bother you a lot more than it will bother her. Do this before you start trying out ground tying. Please.


From where she has come from, I would say she is good at standing tied. I never said she was perfect at standing tied, obviously there is still room for improvement but as long as she keeps progressing in the positive direction thats all that matters. She has come a long ways. Even people at the barn have noticed and commented. 


You guys dont get to see her standing tied so its hard to describe. Does she stand tied as well as a school master? Of course not. But she has dramatically improved from 3 months ago when we got to this barn. Is there room for her to get better? Of course.


----------



## jenkat86 (May 20, 2014)

Hoofpic said:


> Back to the original topic, ground tying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So the bully at school punched three kids in the face yesterday. Today he only punched one. He's getting better. Is he considered good, in your opinion?

You are not ready to go onto ground tying until standing tied is solid. solid. solid.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Rainaisabelle said:


> I'm not going to pretend my horse is good at tying because he definitely isn't. When I first got him within the hour he broke 2 lead ropes from pulling back. If I had a solid tree I would tie him to it and let him sort it out himself but I don't unfortunately...
> 
> Ground tying he's not perfect either but I can walk away to my car and get my saddle and come back and he's still standing in the same place. It takes work ! I wanted to practice tying this month but it's to wet unfortunately.
> 
> Just to feel like a broken record myself, where is your trainer ? Why isn't she helping you? You're not riding by the sounds of it so atleast make some use of her.


My trainer isnt doing lessons right now cause of the weather. 

Believe it or not (and you guys can laugh all you want), but Im fully confident I can teach my mare to ground tie (as in me knowing exactly what to do). She already knows the jist of it and what im asking from her. So when i do it in the aisile, she shouldnt have any trouble making the connection. I also have my BO as well, he has given me some advice over the past week on other things and he does like to observe me every now and then when im in the arena and hes just in the viewing area relaxing. He said to me last week "I noticed you working on ground tying with your girl yesterday....I thought she did really good"....and I said "She did, but I feel she has more to give"


----------



## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Rightio


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> ... Sorry my bad, thought it was Lyons but it wasnt. ...


Not meaning to belittle anyone I have to say I did not think much of that video. Or that approach to getting a horse to stand quietly a few feet away while I am in a conversation with someone.

Anyone can post anything they want on You Tube, it doesn't have to be a good thing for anyone else to do, they can present something like a proven fact when it is not, they can tell you to something that is not safe, they can dress up like someone with proven solid credentials when they are not. 

They can be believed by a viewer when they shouldn't be. This is a huge problem with You Tube in my opinion. You just can't trust everything you see.

Not that the video you showed was an example of any of that. However; if I was the person standing near and talking with him, I would have had to step back quickly to get out of his, and his horse's way while he manipulated him around. And he did not even end up in the same place as where he started!




Hoofpic said:


> ... this one method suggested by my trainer of "circling her away from me in 2 circles" is one that didnt work. ...


Gee, I thought your trainer's way to correct leading worked pretty well. I can remember posts by you saying how happy you are now that you don't even have to think about that while leading her anymore. 

I do not recall hearing that she gave you this exercise to prevent her from walking off (and apparently around in front of you) when you are standing still.


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

I'm very happy to hear that you and the BO are talking more openly.

I feel he is your best resource. Mentor material, if you will.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

anndankev said:


> Not meaning to belittle anyone I have to say I did not think much of that video. Or that approach to getting a horse to stand quietly a few feet away while I am in a conversation with someone.
> 
> Anyone can post anything they want on You Tube, it doesn't have to be a good thing for anyone else to do, they can present something like a proven fact when it is not, they can tell you to something that is not safe, they can dress up like someone with proven solid credentials when they are not.
> 
> ...


Thats true. And thats why I never tried it on my mare because I was curious but not 100% sold on his method yet in that video.



> Gee, I thought your trainer's way to correct leading worked pretty well. I can remember posts by you saying how happy you are now that you don't even have to think about that while leading her anymore.
> 
> I do not recall hearing that she gave you this exercise to prevent her from walking off (and apparently around in front of you) when you are standing still.


Well she gave me the "2 circles away from me" as a correction in getting her to stop trying to circle me when standing next to each other.

IMO its not so much about her trying to circle me, but walking off/moving when shes suppose to stand. And I really do feel thats why that correction method of "2 circles away from me" hasnt worked because my mare hasnt been able to make the connection on what im asking from her. 

Like Ive been told, you cant force a horse to stand, you make them WANT to stand.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

anndankev said:


> I'm very happy to hear that you and the BO are talking more openly.
> 
> I feel he is your best resource. Mentor material, if you will.


I feel that way as well simply because he is there all the time, whereas my trainer isnt. So every time Im there, I see my BO. He sees everything I do with my mare. 

He was the one who gave me advice on how to warm up my mare to the big arena ball. It worked, within 15mins. He saw it, I said thank you and he said I did a great job. 

I know the guy is a great teacher because he has been the mentor for my trainer. My trainer (cause shes still young, younger than me), will still go to him for advice every now and then on stuff here and there. I know this because there have been times I would ask my trainer something and she would suggest I double check with the BO on it. 

Other boarders always go to him for advice as well (from my observations).


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

First, YES, she needs to solidly stand while tied before you begin training to ground tie, or you will just be frustrated.
Second, keep working on her ground manners. Expect great leading and tying and great behavior. When she doesn't do it, say, No, and start again and don't give up. Humans can outlast any horse and the horse will give up or give in eventually. WE are predators. THEY are prey.
Thirdly, maybe you should buy Clinton Anderson's book and apply it to her?
http://www.amazon.com/Clinton-Ander...stablishing/dp/1570762848/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8


----------



## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

Back in August​ 08-25-2015, 10:01 AM 

#*1* Hoofpic 


User
Horses
Yearling




*Getting my horse to stand still when tied* 
Shes getting better since I got it just over 2 months ago but its a sutle improvement. Whenever I have her tied to groom her, she will be constantly prancing around. This makes for what I need to do, take much longer cause Im spending that extra time moving her hind and getting her back into position.

She is most comfortable with her body parrelel to the stall doors, she does not like looking into them. So when I tap her hind and tell her to step over, she will step over easily (thats never a problem), but then when I get closer to her she will proceed to step all the way to the other side. If I walk over to that side and get her to step over the other way so she's off the doors, she will again step all the way to the other end.

I've tried everything.

1) Tapping her hind and clucking to get her step over and stop clucking when I want her to stop. Doesnt work. She responds to it sometimes but overall it hasnt worked.

2) Tapping her hind and telling her "whoa", when I want her to stop, then "stand". Again, she is not bad with this but we havent solidified it.

Everytime she steps away, I will go to the other side and tap her hind to move her back to where I want her to be. Then I say stand, sometimes she stands, other times she wont. Sometimes I will have to give a downward tug on her lead to get her to stand.

I asked one of my coaches who I used to see and she said that I should wallop her on the belly every time she moves when I don't want her to and then move her back to where I want her to be. Now Im not sure how I feel about walloping my horse on the belly (and hard). From what I was told its not good for them as they don't have much protection on their bellies and upward force going directly to it can cause damage or aches/pains, problems down the road.

Theres been times where I would whack her on her butt, it startles her, but again it hasnt quite worked. When I move her back to the position I want her in and I say "stand" and she stands, I always reward her by rubbing her head and nose and neck.

Do you think potentially I should bring in food as rewards for this since she's having trouble with it? 


Like
You had tons of advice on this issue. Maybe you should look up your old posts to help remember what has been advised before.


​


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Corporal said:


> First, YES, she needs to solidly stand while tied before you begin training to ground tie, or you will just be frustrated.
> Second, keep working on her ground manners. Expect great leading and tying and great behavior. When she doesn't do it, say, No, and start again and don't give up. Humans can outlast any horse and the horse will give up or give in eventually. WE are predators. THEY are prey.
> Thirdly, maybe you should buy Clinton Anderson's book and apply it to her?
> http://www.amazon.com/Clinton-Ander...stablishing/dp/1570762848/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8


Thats what Im thinking too, apply that book to her. I actually have read a good chunk of that same book (ordered it 3 weeks ago) and its very good especially for $15CDN.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Whinnie said:


> Back in August​ 08-25-2015, 10:01 AM
> 
> #*1* Hoofpic
> 
> ...


Thank you for this. When I did a search under my name, for some reason it never came up. But I now remember that thread.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

K so I FINALLY got around to doing this today in the aisile and it actually went really well! I was wondering if I should have since there was another person in the arena riding but I figured, just do it. Obviously I wanted to set ourselves up for the most success by having an empty barn but one horse wasnt too bad. I couldnt do it yesterday because trainer was doing lessons and there was 4 horses in the arena (which would have been way too much of a distraction).

After a few times of correcting her when she would move she quickly got the hint. She didnt move too many times, maybe 5 tops. Most of those times she tried to turn around and face the other direction. I immediately got her to move her HQ back to where they were and back in the middle of the aisle. I started brushing her from the front to back. As I got to the back, obviously I had more slack in the lead. I didnt do the lead twirl from one side to the other than anndankev suggested (figured it might be bit much for the first time, ill do it next time). Did both sides including all 4 legs and her bum. In the last 7 or 8 mins of brushing her she was standing completely still. We worked on it total maybe 12 mins. I had lots of slacks in the lead the entire time but not too long cause when i had to correct her and say a firm woah, I wanted her to get the correction immediately. I was tempted to pick her feet but I had already done it prior when she was tied so I said next time.

At the end I figured I would try something, so I put my lead all down on the floor and I walked back to my stall (where I keep all my stuff), since it was only maybe 10ft away from where we were and figured I would try opening the door and going inside to quickly put away my brush and see if she would stand. She stood Mind you I was facing her the whole time and still had to say "stand" as I was walking away from her, and again a couple more times as I was in the stall, then when I came out and picked up the lead and walked up to her I gave her over the top praise!

Now if I was to walk away from her, open the stall door and go inside with me turned away from her, then she would most likely have moved.

Im tempted next time I do it, to do it with the lead on the floor but i dont think we are ready for that yet. 

PS, I used my 14ft lead btw.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

The past couple days Ive been desentizing her when walking past the porta potty and the parked trailer. If im not seeing things, I think its already had a positive and very calming effect on her. 

Yesterday, I basically would walk her up and around the porta potty a couple times. Stand on a couple different sides of the porta potty, and throw the lead rope around her (including her legs) and did it on her left and right side. Then I would let her get up close to it, sniff the porta potty wall, lick it, I would even use my hand and knock on the metal a few times so it somewhat replicated the sound from the other day when the kids threw the snowball at it and she freaked out.

I rinsed and repeated this all when at the parked trailer as well (about 50ft from the potty) but we pass it on the way going into the barn each time.

Yesterday she was calmer than the day she spooked and today she was even more calm. 

Now I know you have to be careful in not desentizing a horse too much cause it can make them too relaxed and they wont be as alert. How many days would you do this for?


----------



## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

Hoofpic said:


> Now I know you have to be careful in not desentizing a horse too much cause it can make them too relaxed and they wont be as alert.


 Where did you get this information?


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Now, give those kids $5 to throw as many snowballs as they can against the port a potty!


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Whinnie said:


> Where did you get this information?


I forgot where I read it online, but the article said that if you desentize too much, you can make the horse dull and they wont react to anything.



greentree said:


> Now, give those kids $5 to throw as many snowballs as they can against the port a potty!


I would love to but not sure if she's ready just yet. All it takes is one of the barn dogs running around the corner and she gets startled.

I should take a picture for you guys of this area (that she is nervous in) and it would give you a good idea of whats in it. There is a lot going on especially with people constantly going in and out the barn door (which is really noisy), the shadows on the ground and side of the barn from the trailer and ask you walk past it, the dog sheds, the porta potty, etc.


----------



## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Isn't that a Warwick Schiller thing ?


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Rainaisabelle said:


> Isn't that a Warwick Schiller thing ?


What is?


----------



## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Not desensitising your horse to much


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Rainaisabelle said:


> Not desensitising your horse to much


Could be, not sure where i read it from.


----------



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Oh my goodness.....

Desensitizing is not a thousand year process. Or hours upon hours. It's confronting your horse with potentially 'scary' things, and teaching them to DEAL with it.

You want them to be calm, and secure in their handler.

Which.... a horse cannot be if they don't respect their handler.

Sorry, but anything you "teach" her right now, will not stick or be effective unless you gain her respect and she begins to truly trust you.

I just don't see that in your posts.


----------



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

And one more thing. Desensitizing isn't about throwing as many scary things at them as possible.... you cannot desensitize your horse to every thing on planet earth. YOU teach them CONFIDENCE. To think instead of bolt off or lose their mind in flight mode.

Every time I read one of your threads, there's a lot of excuse making and circle discussion. In order to learn, you should ask questions yes... but you also need to learn to listen and absorb what you are told. Then the third step is researching it, or applying common sense or your experience to see if that is something you SHOULD try or SHOULD NOT try.

The two circles thing just seems silly to me. Have you ever heard of anticipation? Because using THE SAME 'correction' (which it is actually not correcting anything) over and over, the horse knows it's coming and yet it still continues on with the unwanted behavior. ERGO that method is NOT WORKING. It is NOT effective.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Oh my goodness.....
> 
> Desensitizing is not a thousand year process. Or hours upon hours. It's confronting your horse with potentially 'scary' things, and teaching them to DEAL with it.
> 
> ...


Then what do you suggest?



Skyseternalangel said:


> And one more thing. Desensitizing isn't about throwing as many scary things at them as possible.... you cannot desensitize your horse to every thing on planet earth. YOU teach them CONFIDENCE. To think instead of bolt off or lose their mind in flight mode.


ok



> Every time I read one of your threads, there's a lot of excuse making and circle discussion. In order to learn, you should ask questions yes... but you also need to learn to listen and absorb what you are told. Then the third step is researching it, or applying common sense or your experience to see if that is something you SHOULD try or SHOULD NOT try.


And what makes you believe Im not already doing this? If I wasnt listening, I wouldnt be making notes and taking time to think about it, research it, etc.



> The two circles thing just seems silly to me. Have you ever heard of anticipation? Because using THE SAME 'correction' (which it is actually not correcting anything) over and over, the horse knows it's coming and yet it still continues on with the unwanted behavior. ERGO that method is NOT WORKING. It is NOT effective.


Obviously we did not know this would not work. But at least I stuck with this method for some time before moving on, instead of using it for one or two times then moving on. I was told to stick with it for 2 weeks to judge if its working or not and I did.


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Hoofpic...huh? We are all getting rather frustrated by all this....

If you are correcting a behavior, you MUST CORRECT it. Not do something that DOES NOT WORK for TWO freakin' WEEKS. Think about, and research THAT.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

greentree said:


> Hoofpic...huh? We are all getting rather frustrated by all this....
> 
> If you are correcting a behavior, you MUST CORRECT it. Not do something that DOES NOT WORK for TWO freakin' WEEKS. Think about, and research THAT.


The two circles was suppose to be the method for correcting her. I stuck with it for two weeks because I did not want to keep changing things up. 

I dont get why youre being frustrated when I was suggested on here to stick with it for "2 weeks" to determine if its working or not and if I need to move onto a new method. If I did it for a day then moved onto another method, I would get flack on here for not sticking to it and giving it enough time.

You also have to keep in mind that I did not apply this correction every single day, or every time I saw her because she wasnt doing it all the time.


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I never suggested using a CORRECTION for two weeks.....NEVER. A correction is IMMEDIATE. If they do the offense again, the correction gets WAY harder. If you are the leader boss, whatever...they DO NOT DO IT AGAIN. 

For one thing, the leader LEARNS to see it coming, and STOP it BEFORE it happens. 
Like the horse stepping on you. Immediately upon this happening, I do not pull my shoe off to make sure all my toes are there...the horse gets correction FIRST...a swift yank on the leadrope, maybe a few quick backwards steps.

Then, I make sure my toes are OK....from then on, if the horse picks up the foot close to where I am standing, they may get a correction(unless, of course, I am asking for the foot or something), like an elbow in the side, or something, to remind them that I WILL NOT be TROmPED UPON.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

greentree said:


> I never suggested using a CORRECTION for two weeks.....NEVER. A correction is IMMEDIATE. If they do the offense again, the correction gets WAY harder. If you are the leader boss, whatever...they DO NOT DO IT AGAIN.
> 
> For one thing, the leader LEARNS to see it coming, and STOP it BEFORE it happens.
> Like the horse stepping on you. Immediately upon this happening, I do not pull my shoe off to make sure all my toes are there...the horse gets correction FIRST...a swift yank on the leadrope, maybe a few quick backwards steps.
> ...


I never said that you told me to use the method for 2 weeks but it was suggested on here, I know forsure.

And that is why (IMO) the two circles away didnt work as a correction cause it wasnt stiff enough. But I wouldnt know until I tried and now I know.

Im always able to aniticpate when she starts to try to circle me and i act on it immediately. Just right now, im in the phase of searching for a new method to correct her on this.

Also, when I had my toes stepped on, I always whacked her to get her off of it first, I never pull my feet from under. Im smarter than that.


----------



## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

If you are doing a proper correction, she would "get it" by three times max. It is you and your lack of timing and your difficulty in comprehending what is being advised that is causing the problems. You should be getting* hands on help only* from someone *right there with you* to show you how and to watch you and correct* YOU*.

Your mare won't get it until you get it.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Whinnie said:


> If you are doing a proper correction, she would "get it" by three times max. It is you and your lack of timing and your difficulty in comprehending what is being advised that is causing the problems. You should be getting* hands on help only* from someone *right there with you* to show you how and to watch you and correct* YOU*.
> 
> *Your mare won't get it until you get it.*


This, many times over, especially the bold


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Put her where you want her, and give her a good yank if she gets out of that spot. If she gets in front, yank back. If she lags behind, yank forward. When she is where you want her drop your arms to relaxed position, and go where you want to go. Do NOT pet her, say good girl, or anything. Her reward is your arms dropping, and just walking.


Hoofpic, this is like preK level stuff.....the beginning of the beginning. You have just GOT to find someone to help you hands on. 

How in the heck do you think you are ever going to ride her if you cannot even lead her??


----------



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Then what do you suggest?
> 
> ok
> 
> ...


The horse tells all. I am astounded by your logic. Do not group me with into when talking about the correction not working. I knew immediately when it was suggested that it made no sense andI voiced it then on your FIRST thread back when you had issues even leading her. So none of this "we didn't know it wouldn't work".

I suggest you gain her respect by moving her feet. You need to work on her pressure and release in every instance you handle her. Test her by asking her to yield, teach her the right way. Get after her for sour faces, if you don't she learns nothing on how that isn't acceptable. If she paws whilst tied, correct her effectively. Look up/research effevtive corrections. Teach her how to back up softly when you ask immediately. Sour face, make her do it faster until she complies. 

Just research common effective ways to correct an action you don't want. And research correct ways to teach, to build on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

Skyseternalangel said:


> The horse tells all. I am astounded by your logic. Do not group me with into when talking about the correction not working. I knew immediately when it was suggested that it made no sense andI voiced it then on your FIRST thread back when you had issues even leading her. So none of this "we didn't know it wouldn't work".
> 
> I suggest you gain her respect by moving her feet. You need to work on her pressure and release in every instance you handle her. Test her by asking her to yield, teach her the right way. Get after her for sour faces, if you don't she learns nothing on how that isn't acceptable. If she paws whilst tied, correct her effectively. Look up/research effevtive corrections. Teach her how to back up softly when you ask immediately. Sour face, make her do it faster until she complies.
> 
> ...


 I seriously doubt OP, who is weak on understanding terminology, will understand how to get her to move her feet, pressure and release, etc.
All this has been said over and over the way you have written it here and explained in other terms that posters hoped OP would understand. Same stuff, different day.

If he *really* wants help, he will take the initiative and get hands on help. If he just wants to chat about his horse, then maybe another area here, like the journal section, would be more appropriate and give him connection with horse people. Just a suggestion.


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

There is circling and then ther is CIRCLING as a true correction for bad behavior.

Which are you doing?

I was working with a friends horse who not keep a hoof up to be picked or stand still for mounting. It took ONE energetic 'circling' to correct BOTH behaviors. ONE TIME.

Think on that.


----------



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Whinnie said:


> I seriously doubt OP, who is weak on understanding terminology, will understand how to get her to move her feet, pressure and release, etc.
> All this has been said over and over the way you have written it here and explained in other terms that posters hoped OP would understand. Same stuff, different day.
> 
> If he *really* wants help, he will take the initiative and get hands on help. If he just wants to chat about his horse, then maybe another area here, like the journal section, would be more appropriate and give him connection with horse people. Just a suggestion.


I've said this exact same advice at least 2 times before this new post. He asked me what I suggested, so I laid it out again. This will be the third time.

I'm not expecting the OP to magically understand it, but he asked so I delivered.


----------



## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

I would consider getting your BO or trainer to help you. We can tell you until we are blue in the face but you're not going to learn unless it's hands on. I believe you mentioned you are a hands on learner at some point ?


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Hoofpic, DH says he feels your pain!


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Whinnie said:


> If you are doing a proper correction, she would "get it" by three times max. It is you and your lack of timing and your difficulty in comprehending what is being advised that is causing the problems. You should be getting* hands on help only* from someone *right there with you* to show you how and to watch you and correct* YOU*.
> 
> Your mare won't get it until you get it.


My timing actually has come a lot better, why? Well a bunch of reasons, Im more alert, Im always watching her ears, etc more things are feeling more natural for me. Im more relaxed, im not nervous. I go with the flow. I just feel im able to read her a lot better (the books have really helped!)

The circling away from me in 2 circles just isnt a method for my mare. It may work on some horses but obviously not mine.

Ive said it before and ill say it again, I do believe that once I get her standing better, she wont try circling me anymore. She hasnt tried it lately. I know Greentree will not want to here it. 

Since ive been doing the ground tying and desentizing around spooky places and objects ive noticed she stands drastically better. In fact just over the past week ive noticed a difference.

Today I decided I would do a bit more and not only take her around the porta potty and trailer but also down the driveway corridor that leads from the main road (since she doesnt like it with the bushes all around). I ended up taking her throughout there and to the main road and across the road desentized her. Aside from standing right on the side of the main road (which she only tried moving twice and i immediately told her woah and put her back where she was and said a firm STAND), she stood still and didnt take a single step at any of the 5 places where i told her to stand and I desentized her. I had lots of slack in the lead and she didnt move. That is a good positive sign! I do feel yesterdays ground tying in the barn aisile really benefited and it showed today.

I will mention right now, whenever she pins her ears at me, I say "HEY...NO" and give her a firm "HEY...NO" and I say it loud. That is the verbal que that shes learned just recently that when she pins her ears, Im telling her its unaccpetable.

All the watching ive been doing on the herd has started to pay off. I have picked up on a lot of stuff and have been able to connect the dots and make connections. I notice that my mare is ALWAYS pinning her ears at her mates. One of her mates can just go up to her or walk behind her and immediately her ears are pinned back. That video I taped on Christmas day really showed me a lot (must have watched the entire thing 4 times now).

Is this normal for a horse to constantly pin their ears at their mates for just them walking by them?


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

greentree said:


> Put her where you want her, and give her a good yank if she gets out of that spot. If she gets in front, yank back. If she lags behind, yank forward. When she is where you want her drop your arms to relaxed position, and go where you want to go. Do NOT pet her, say good girl, or anything. Her reward is your arms dropping, and just walking.
> 
> 
> Hoofpic, this is like preK level stuff.....the beginning of the beginning. You have just GOT to find someone to help you hands on.
> ...


This is what Ive been doing especially lately. When she moves, I immediately put her back to where she was. If she takes one step, its one step back. If two, then two back. If she swings her HQ then I swing it back.

What I started doing yesterday was carry my short dressage whip with me when leading. I noticed right away its had a positive effect on her, she has a bit more energy when leading. My goal when leading is to never have (or have as little pressure) in the lead as possible. Lead with slack in the lead (though I still hold the lead only 1.5ft from the snap). I keep the whip pointed to the ground and if she slows down, I point it behind me and give her a tap on the butt with it.

Trainer and BO both noticed me starting to carry the whip with me and said it was a good idea. My BO actually said the other day that he thinks i lead her pretty good. Good walk, good form, etc


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Whinnie said:


> I seriously doubt OP, who is weak on understanding terminology, will understand how to get her to move her feet, pressure and release, etc.
> All this has been said over and over the way you have written it here and explained in other terms that posters hoped OP would understand. Same stuff, different day.
> 
> If he *really* wants help, he will take the initiative and get hands on help. If he just wants to chat about his horse, then maybe another area here, like the journal section, would be more appropriate and give him connection with horse people. Just a suggestion.


Gee thank Whinnie! I actully do understand pressure and release and how to move her feet.


----------



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> My timing actually has come a lot better, why? Well a bunch of reasons, Im more alert, Im always watching her ears, etc more things are feeling more natural for me. Im more relaxed, im not nervous. I go with the flow. I just feel im able to read her a lot better (the books have really helped!)
> 
> *The circling away from me in 2 circles just isnt a method for my mare. It may work on some horses but obviously not mine.*
> 
> ...


I don't think two circles is a correction at all, to be honest. 

How is a verbal cue a correction when a horse doesn't get an actual consequence for trying that.

Horses pin their ears at other horses to communicate that they will not be pushed around and lose their place in the pecking order. AKA they are higher up in charge compared to the other horse unless the other horse challenges your mare and she backs down.

Ergo if she's pinning her ears at you, and you just yell at her or tell her firmly no, what's to stop her from striking out at you? Nothing. She could go to bite you, trample you, and your first thought is to tell her no.

Verbal cues are only effective AFTER they get a physical correction initially. Then they anticipate what happens if they continue with an unwanted behavior after they hear your verbal cue. But you have to teach them what the consequence for that is, first... or it's just not teaching her anything.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Skyseternalangel said:


> The horse tells all. I am astounded by your logic. Do not group me with into when talking about the correction not working. I knew immediately when it was suggested that it made no sense andI voiced it then on your FIRST thread back when you had issues even leading her. So none of this "we didn't know it wouldn't work".
> 
> I suggest you gain her respect by moving her feet. You need to work on her pressure and release in every instance you handle her. Test her by asking her to yield, teach her the right way. Get after her for sour faces, if you don't she learns nothing on how that isn't acceptable. If she paws whilst tied, correct her effectively. Look up/research effevtive corrections. Teach her how to back up softly when you ask immediately. Sour face, make her do it faster until she complies.
> 
> ...


Back then i was told to stick (and try) what method my trainer taight me. I know there were a lot on here who knew her method wouldnt work. Dont you remember ny posts questioning if it would work or not? I never saw it as tge right method from the start.

Lately, I have been incorporating again moving my mares feet each time i handle her. I know this is the best way to go about it, without me having to do groundwork with her again in the arena.

Even when leading to the barn, i will get her to yield her HQ to me, back her up, yield her shoulder. I wont do a whole lesson but i feel bits here and there and it should pay off. It also helps keep her attn on me.

When she paws I will stomp my foot and say quit. She knows it by now and she stops.



> Just research common effective ways to correct an action you don't want. And research correct ways to teach, to build on it.


ok


----------



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Back then i was told to stick (and try) what method my trainer taight me. I know there were a lot on here who knew her method wouldnt work. Dont you remember ny posts questioning if it would work or not? I never saw it as tge right method from the start.
> 
> Lately, I have been incorporating again moving my mares feet each time i handle her. I know this is the best way to go about it, without me having to do groundwork with her again in the arena.
> 
> Even when leading to the barn, i will get her to yield her HQ to me, back her up, yield her shoulder. I wont do a whole lesson but i feel bits here and there and it should pay off. It also helps keep her attn on me


Yes, I do remember but that was suggested because you were new and your timing was off so that was for your benefit, not your horses.

It's good that you're doing a little here and there. Also make sure to halt and work on other things, like lowering her head, flexing, etc.

My horse I can lift his feet anywhere, because we have that level of trust and understanding and I know he won't hurt me.

Work on building up to that level.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Yes, I do remember but that was suggested because you were new and your timing was off so that was for your benefit, not your horses.


Oh ok. And same when I was suggested to only work with ONE thing with my mare each time I see her (so that I dont get confused). I did this at the start but now I find I can easily work on 3 or 4 different things with her when I see her and I dont get confused. Everything feels much more natural to me now. That means my knowledge has grown. I dont care what Whinnie says or thinks (she can think im as dumb as a rock, I dont care), but my knowledge has grown. These books have helped. All that herd watching has helped. 

The reason why I ask if its normal for my mare to always pin her ears when her her mates just walk by or even approach her, is because from what I notice, her mates dont pin their ears when other mates come near them nearly as much. So I was just checking if it was normal on her part, or if she was just being a B.

My timing obvviously still can improve but it has gotten better. When I correct her with dead on timing, I have to say it gives you the best feeling in the world! It gives you a nice boost of confidence.




> It's good that you're doing a little here and there. Also make sure to halt and work on other things, like lowering her head, flexing, etc.
> 
> Yes we are still doing flexing and scretching excersizes, just every other day cause im changing things up and doing things in rotation. Keeps her mind fresh. I still would like to teach her a verbal que to lower her head. The only luck ive had in lowering her head is when haltering her (and only if a treat is in my hand for her to follow).
> 
> ...


----------



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Oh ok. And same when I was suggested to only work with ONE thing with my mare each time I see her (so that I dont get confused). I did this at the start but now I find I can easily work on 3 or 4 different things with her when I see her and I dont get confused. Everything feels much more natural to me now. That means my knowledge has grown. I dont care what Whinnie says or thinks (she can think im as dumb as a rock, I dont care), but my knowledge has grown. These books have helped. All that herd watching has helped.
> 
> The reason why I ask if its normal for my mare to always pin her ears when her her mates just walk by or even approach her, is because from what I notice, her mates dont pin their ears when other mates come near them nearly as much. So I was just checking if it was normal on her part, or if she was just being a B.
> 
> ...


Nope, out in pasture, in his stall, after we're done riding, in the cross ties, ground tied... literally anywhere anytime I can pick his feet up and he's happy to give them to me. Even when he's stuffing his face full of grass.

Taking a horse's feet away causes them to be vulnerable, especially back hooves.

But this isn't like something special that you have to race to accomplish or tick off your list, it's showing trust and respect and understanding. It's a marker of training and of a relationship between horse and owner. It's something to work towards, if that makes sense.

~

Horses don't bore as easily as you are saying. Horses get burnt out of drilling lessons... you have to do it until they get it right, then you move on. If you do the same thing over and over, then yes they'll get burnt out. They can also zone out, which leads to boredom... and naughtiness.

It's good to do that, groundwork is an ongoing thing. Always should be doing it, anytime you can test...test.


----------



## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

Hoofpic said:


> Gee thank Whinnie! I actully do understand pressure and release and how to move her feet.


 If you truly understood and were able to do it, you would not still be having the same problems and asking the same questions.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Nope, out in pasture, in his stall, after we're done riding, in the cross ties, ground tied... literally anywhere anytime I can pick his feet up and he's happy to give them to me. Even when he's stuffing his face full of grass.
> 
> Taking a horse's feet away causes them to be vulnerable, especially back hooves.
> 
> ...


Ok thanks.

I found an interesting article on correcting a horse for pinning their ears. Thought these sections really stood out.



> I do one of two things. I use
> my hand to physically move the ears forward every time they start to go back to pinned, if I feel the horse is safe enough to
> stand next to. Of course I stand right by his shoulder and neck where I am safe. Or, standing in a safe place I will, using only
> enough force to get an ear forward response, use a whip to tap the horse on the shoulder or neck until he puts his ears
> ...





> I would continue with this horse in the same step by step system. I would use other things that I knew bothered him gradually
> building his trust. I use things like going over plywood, between, over and under plastic and going near things the horse is
> unsure about. I would be very attentive to his body language signals to be sure that he was never challenged beyond what he
> could be successful at handling. The horse must stay calm or go back to calm quickly. The handler must also at all times stay
> ...


----------



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Quote: I do one of two things. I use
> My hand to physically move the ears forward every time they start to go back to pinned, if I feel the horse is safe enough to
> Stand next to. Of course I stand right by his shoulder and neck where I am safe. Or, standing in a safe place I will, using only
> Enough force to get an ear forward response, use a whip to tap the horse on the shoulder or neck until he puts his ears
> ...


I'm sorry but all of that is a steaming crock.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I'm sorry but all of that is a steaming crock.


oh????

I just thought it was interesting how she used a crop to tap the shoulder when ears were pinned.

I personally was leaning more towards whacking their ears once with the short whip would be more ideal.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> oh????
> 
> I just thought it was interesting how she used a crop to tap the shoulder when ears were pinned.
> 
> I personally was leaning more towards whacking their ears once with the short whip would be more ideal.



Seriously? Now you are sounding like a troll again, with all this great experience that you now have you think that sacking their ears with a short whip is any sort of ideal ???

Sir if you are not a troll you are some sort of crazy, again I feel so sorry for that poor mare of yours, you have no clue, and I despair of you ever finding one.


----------



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> oh????
> 
> I just thought it was interesting how she used a crop to tap the shoulder when ears were pinned.
> 
> I personally was leaning more towards whacking their ears once with the short whip would be more ideal.


That is beyond uncomprehensible and borderline violent. Their ears are not the source of their sass, their attitude is. Whacking delicate ears with a crop is not going to fix that. Sorry to say but if you even tried that, I hope you get kicked. Hard.

And nothing interesting about it. Failed logic. Seems you are attracted to it.


----------



## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Ouch why go for the ears that would hurt! How would you like to take a crop to the ear?


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Hoofpic, that may have been the last straw...


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Skyseternalangel said:


> That is beyond uncomprehensible and borderline violent. Their ears are not the source of their sass, their attitude is. Whacking delicate ears with a crop is not going to fix that. Sorry to say but if you even tried that, I hope you get kicked. Hard.
> 
> And nothing interesting about it. Failed logic. Seems you are attracted to it.



Im not saying I would do it. Just mentioning it. I read this in an article while back, months ago.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> Im not saying I would do it. Just mentioning it. I read this in an article while back, months ago.


It is not if you would do it or not, it is the fact that you even THINK that in any way shape or form whacking a horses ears is an 'ideal'

This simply demonstrates how little you have actually grasped so far, THE EARS ARE NOT THE ISSUE, so whacking them because they are back is abusive, and would sour a horse who is already peed off with life even further. 

A horse is not a collection of parts, it is a whole living being, and you need to read the whole horse, not continually get fixated on such small details, even thinking for a second that some how getting the ears forward by hitting will resolve anything is simply so asinine as to be beyond any logic.


----------



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Im not saying I would do it. Just mentioning it. I read this in an article while back, months ago.


No... "leaning towards" something means you'd be inclined to do it.

And thinking that is any form of "ideal" is your problem.

Edited To Add: Golden Horse put it much more eloquently than I did.


----------



## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Shaking my head...


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Skyseternalangel said:


> No... "leaning towards" something means you'd be inclined to do it.
> 
> And thinking that is any form of "ideal" is your problem.
> 
> Edited To Add: Golden Horse put it much more eloquently than I did.


Leaning towards mentally, but it doesnt mean I think its the best idea. I would never whack any horse on the ears, I know its a no touch area. I should have worded it better, my bad.


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I could not find the emoticon for banging my head against wall......


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I suggest you give your trainer the CROP.....


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

One more thing... THIS is what ground tied horses look like. There are THREE of them in the picture, all waiting to get saddled before a ride.


----------



## jenkat86 (May 20, 2014)

Oh man...this is a disaster. I've been refraining from posting because I just don't think it will do me any good...but I just can't NOT say something.

How the heck do you think horses' communicate? They wear their emotions on their sleeve, OP. What you see is exactly what you get from a horse. If a horse is ****ED, she's going to pin her ears. It's a warning for you to SEE and UNDERSTAND. You don't answer back by physically moving or whacking those ears forward. Have you ever seen a horse pin it's ears at another horse? What does the other horse do? Do they walk over with a stick and start beating them in the head? NO. That other horse either runs away, or they make the horse with the pinned ears run away. MAKE YOUR HORSE WORK. You haven't grasped this at all. You are so concerned with MICRO-MANAGING your horse, she can't even be a horse anymore. The fact that you gave any amount of energy to that previous article, regardless if you think it's a good idea or not (which at one point you had to have because you wouldn't have posted it if not) proves you don't understand. You should not be trying to teach this horse ANYTHING. YOU should be the one being TAUGHT how to handle a horse. You are not doing any favors for your mare. At this rate, you are going to have a bossy, dangerous, spoiled baby with major, major holes in her training that someone is going to have to spend a lot of money on to fix. 

Sorry it's blunt. But it is what it is.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

jenkat86 said:


> Have you ever seen a horse pin it's ears at another horse? What does the other horse do? Do they walk over with a stick and start beating them in the head? NO. That other horse either runs away, or they make the horse with the pinned ears run away. *MAKE YOUR HORSE WORK.*


Yes I have and that is exactly what I plan on doing.

Obviously it will be a bit more difficult if she is unhaltered and in the field ( in terms of making her work).


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

greentree said:


> One more thing... THIS is what ground tied horses look like. There are THREE of them in the picture, all waiting to get saddled before a ride.


Thanks. Yes I know what ground tying is.


----------



## jenkat86 (May 20, 2014)

Hoofpic said:


> Yes I have and that is exactly what I plan on doing.
> 
> Obviously it will be a bit more difficult if she is unhaltered and in the field ( in terms of making her work).


How will it be more difficult? You walk out to her in a field, if she pins her ears then you apply pressure HARD so that she get's the memo, and you make her move away from you. Chase her down if you have to. You don't have to have a perfectly calculated method and static environment to achieve this.


----------



## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

Not only does Hoofpic not get it, but the wonderful members here don't get that Hoofpic does not and will not understand ANYTHING he is being advised. You all who keep trying, I know it is for his mare's sake, but it has been MONTHS of the same. I remember early in Fall him using violent references when speaking about correction, such as punching his mare on the nose.

I doubt Hoofpic can understand and relate to any animal but worse, the violent tendencies I have seen in months of posts are of concern. It is a very short walk from thinking of doing something to actually doing it.

If Hoofpic understood one shred of what has been advised here he would have gotten hands on help on a regular basis instead of coming here and trying to get approval for hitting his mare. Just my opinion


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Whinnie said:


> Not only does Hoofpic not get it, but the wonderful members here don't get that Hoofpic does not and will not understand ANYTHING he is being advised. You all who keep trying, I know it is for his mare's sake, but it has been MONTHS of the same. I remember early in Fall him using violent references when speaking about correction, such as punching his mare on the nose.
> 
> I doubt Hoofpic can understand and relate to any animal but worse, the violent tendencies I have seen in months of posts are of concern. It is a very short walk from thinking of doing something to actually doing it.
> 
> If Hoofpic understood one shred of what has been advised here he would have gotten hands on help on a regular basis instead of coming here and trying to get approval for hitting his mare. Just my opinion


I dont know why Im replying to this. I was giving an example of another boarder at the old barn who was giving me advice and said he punches his horses when correcting. He gives them a hard punch in the muzzle if they try to bite him. Somtimes punches them in the shoulder.

I NEVER SAID I WOULD DO IT TO MY MARE. HAVE I? NO.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

jenkat86 said:


> How will it be more difficult? You walk out to her in a field, if she pins her ears then you apply pressure HARD so that she get's the memo, and you make her move away from you. Chase her down if you have to. You don't have to have a perfectly calculated method and static environment to achieve this.


Yes this was what I had in mine. Make her move away from me, but my worry was that if I chase her away and then re-approach in attempting to catch, she will just run away again. 

Not saying its going to happen but just a thought I had.


----------



## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

Hoofpic said:


> I dont know why Im replying to this. I was giving an example of another boarder at the old barn who was giving me advice and said he punches his horses when correcting. He gives them a hard punch in the muzzle if they try to bite him. Somtimes punches them in the shoulder.
> 
> I NEVER SAID I WOULD DO IT TO MY MARE. HAVE I? NO.


Amazing that you have recall for things you say but can't seem to remember advice you have been given.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Whinnie said:


> Amazing that you have recall for things you say but can't seem to remember advice you have been given.


He even has issues remembering how old he is, gave 2 different ages, on another board. Now it quite possible that he does struggle with memory, understanding and interaction. And that is OK but still it is the mare who is going to pay.


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Sadly, GH, yes....


----------



## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

I would consider maybe selling this mare and getting a well broke horse. Nothing wrong with moving on to something more your skill level and then you can really start to appreciate horse riding and ownership


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Oh, gosh, no Raina!! He rescued her, and he is determined to learn to train her.


----------



## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

greentree said:


> Oh, gosh, no Raina!! He rescued her, and he is determined to learn to train her.


Lol, sometimes it can work out with green + green but you have to be extremely lucky and have to have a very decent instructor. Majority it ends black and blue.

You could send the mare away for another 30-90 days of training.


----------



## jenkat86 (May 20, 2014)

Rainaisabelle said:


> I would consider maybe selling this mare and getting a well broke horse. Nothing wrong with moving on to something more your skill level and then you can really start to appreciate horse riding and ownership


That's been suggested several times, in pretty much every thread he's started. :shrug:


----------



## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

jenkat86 said:


> Rainaisabelle said:
> 
> 
> > I would consider maybe selling this mare and getting a well broke horse. Nothing wrong with moving on to something more your skill level and then you can really start to appreciate horse riding and ownership
> ...


Just trying to break the tension


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Rainaisabelle said:


> Just trying to break the tension


I DID laugh!


----------



## Mernst (Dec 19, 2015)

So this is a bit off topic, but seeing how everything is getting tense I figured I could ask....
What does BO stand for?


----------



## jenkat86 (May 20, 2014)

Mernst said:


> So this is a bit off topic, but seeing how everything is getting tense I figured I could ask....
> What does BO stand for?


Lol...Barn Owner.


----------



## Mernst (Dec 19, 2015)

jenkat86 said:


> Lol...Barn Owner.


I will now continue my day feeling like an idiot lol but thank you! It was driving me nuts.


----------



## jenkat86 (May 20, 2014)

Mernst said:


> I will now continue my day feeling like an idiot lol but thank you! It was driving me nuts.


No worries...I didn't know what it meant until I asked!


----------



## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

In my line of work it means Bowels Open....


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Hoofpic*   
_
Now I know you have to be careful in not desentizing a horse too much cause it can make them too relaxed and they wont be as alert._



Whinnie said:


> Where did you get this information?


Exactly. You cannot desensitize to too many stimuli. There is always gonna be something you missed, and that something should maybe still be a problem. I couldn't desensitize my horses, while ground picketed in French Creek Horse Camp (Custer State Park, SD,) to the buffalo that took the road right past our camp.
We did ride to and around and even into a buffalo herd, but I wanted my horses to be wary and to listen to me the whole time. 
There is a difference


----------



## weeedlady (Jul 19, 2014)

subbing. I nothing to add.
M


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Thread closed, it has run it's course and beyond.

When one thread has been explored and answered it is time to move on to practical application and hands on guidance. 

Rather than searching for more and more answers to the original question until you run into asinine answers. 

As to side tracking off topic. I suggest keeping to the original question, and using what will be shorter threads for reference. As opposed to encouraging them to stray off topic and wander. 

Here on HF it is possible to have more than 1 thread going at the same time. Epic length threads are difficult to look back on and find a particular item to re-read.

Please stick around, ask something else. LOL

Fondly,
Ann


----------

