# Please tell me this isn't common practice in the H/J industry



## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

Hoofpic said:


> Anyone know how common stuff like this is in the english showjumping side of the horse world? This stuff just makes me so upset.
> 
> 
> Ahh I can say is the one English horse forum I'm on (which is 50% of my horse forum exposure so not a huge sampling ), which happens to be H&H forum are also decrying this behaviour as well.
> ...


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

The FEI are investigating this incident, not what the sport wants at all. Sadly there are people in every branch of the sport who should not be riding, English or Western, the sport is fine it is the odd person who sucks.


----------



## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

Elizabeth Bailey countered with: “I am only speaking about what I see in this video, I do not know this person, but *I wish these things didn’t turn into witch hunts* and that we could be understanding and respectful of each other while sharing knowledge, instead of burning the house down in anger. the anger solves nothing.”

Oh, I just love it when people cry "witch hunt" when abusers are caught in the act. The fact is that more people need to speak up and complain. If it happened enough these people _might_ think twice about their tactics. It wouldn't stop the abuse going on behind closed doors at home but at least they'd behave themselves in public.

I think all of we more experienced horse people have had to deal with a horse at one time or another that has been "trained" by someone who employed abusive techniques. Much of the damage is permanent and many horses cannot be salvaged.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Not sure what you mean by the use of the word 'English'?
If you mean 'non-Western' riding then surely you must know that abuse happens in all forms of horse sport and not just show jumping and this incident is being taken very seriously by the governing body
What is sad is that someone didn't stop it at the time it was happening


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Chasin Ponies said:


> Elizabeth Bailey countered with: “I am only speaking about what I see in this video, I do not know this person, but *I wish these things didn’t turn into witch hunts* and that we could be understanding and respectful of each other while sharing knowledge, instead of burning the house down in anger. the anger solves nothing.”


The way I read that comment is that it is more about how social media will react, everyone having an opinion and possible bullying amongst users, rather than how an official investigation by the FEI will be conducted.


----------



## Idrivetrotters (Jan 5, 2013)

Very typical FEI, turn a blind eye until video evidence proves that the FEI has serious problems with stewards. The AERC (Endurance) has been speaking out for years of problems in Region VII with Endurance. FEI ignored this until the Splitter's Creek Bundy photos came out, THEN the FEI started investigating and man, did they find problems. Races that never actually happened, horses illegally chased, vet check abnormalities, and so much more. The FEI finally took minimal action and Region VII is doing little to clean up their mess.

I've lost faith in the FEI and seeing warm up videos from many FEI sports are showing serious problems that the FEI ignores. Blue tongues in Dressage warm ups, rollkur still openly practiced, over riding reining horses, drilling on show jumpers, and the list goes on.

Unfortunately, there isn't much we can do, FEI rules the show world, and outside of the AERC threatening to pull out of FEI, I've not seen much work to improve the FEI.


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Idrivetrotters said:


> Very typical FEI, turn a blind eye until video evidence proves that the FEI has serious problems with stewards.





> “The FEI is looking into the full circumstances of the incident in which the French horse Vagabond de la Pomme stumbled very badly prior to the first round of Monday’s competition and the rider, Penelope Leprevost, reacted very roughly. *The FEI Steward on duty in the warm-up reported the incident to the FEI and also to the FEI Chief Steward,” said a spokesperson for the FEI on Monday night.*


FEI looking into full circumstances of World Cup incident concerning Penelope Leprevost | World of Showjumping

Bolding mine. Read the article, and the quote from Monday, the day of the competition. The FEI ring steward reported it to the FEI and the Chief Steward, following protocol. They did not "turn a blind eye". 


You can't compare abuse in Show Jumping to Endurance. Abuse in Endurance has been and is constantly being addressed. The FEI suspended the UAE from sport last year because of Endurance but the Show Jumping team was allowed to compete under the FEI flag.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Idrivetrotters said:


> I've lost faith in the FEI and seeing warm up videos from many FEI sports are showing serious problems that the FEI ignores. Blue tongues in Dressage warm ups, rollkur still openly practiced, over riding reining horses, drilling on show jumpers, and the list goes on.


Serious question, because I don't know, how many incidents are reported to the FEI, and by multiple people? If the reports are going in and are being ignored, then why is this?

Bigger question, why are not ground judges doing their job at each and every show, be it abuse in the warm up ring, or lame horses in the show ring, the judges there should be calling it.

There was an outcry in the UK at Olympia because a guy was disqualified after I believe winning a class, because there was blood on the horses side. Bad blood over Quiet Easy disqualification at Olympia - Telegraph People were upset because Bertram is a 'nice guy' and it was an accident, both are probably true, but it is so hard to argue both sided of the coin. Either we have rules or we don't, and sometimes innocent people will get found guilt, which is harsh, but the welfare of the horse is paramount.

Again, NOT an epidemic problem in the show jumping ring, BUT there are bad people, or good people who make bad decisions in EVERY horse sport.

Still have to remember that the biggest abusers of horses are uneducated or uncaring owners who either do not know how to care for their animals, or don't bother or can't afford to.


----------



## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

updownrider said:


> The way I read that comment is that it is more about how social media will react, everyone having an opinion and possible bullying amongst users, rather than how an official investigation by the FEI will be conducted.


That is how I read it too - its actually a serious problem because what happens is that the event gets not just local but global attention and people then get stupid. People do things like start stalking the person (online/inperson) and soon enough you can end up with legal forces having to protect the person being targeted.

It's also a wildfire event - it happens and can destroy a persons life over a week and then its gone and everyone has utterly forgotten about it besides the handful of nutcases who go way too far. 


It's something we are having to learn how to deal with as a society - its not about ignoring the problem, but it is about working how how to deal with it properly.


As an aside one problem can be that when official channels are used there is a general view that the whole thing happens in private. As a result people can see abuses but they don't see the result of any action taken. This can whip up a storm if the person appears to then continue as normal without anything being done or no fine issued. Of course its a grey and difficult line to walk and does get done wrong sometimes.






And now for the non-horsey person asking a question. What actually did happen that went wrong? 

From my impression the horse tripped/slipped. Then right after the rider issued a firm, if possibly considered over firm, order to move forward and then one of two things happens - it either looks like the horse launched forward with more force than expected and was pulled back; or the rider pulled back deliberately as a form of punishment. 
The latter argument being reinforced by what appears to be similar behaviour later in the video with the same sudden and sharp pulling back.

I can seem any arguing that the rider is unfairly punishing the horse for no wrong done; whilst I can see some line of argument that the rider was faced with too spry a horse and was attempting to regain control using incorrect methods; 

It's hard for me to tell, mostly because subtitles in the matter are invisible to me; however my impression would be someone riding with a horse beyond their skill level; or a person who has only a handful of tools to use to correct and detect behaviour which are not the proper ones; but which have likely served at a functional level for them to advance as far in their riding as they have. 


Anyone got any detailed thoughts or a breakdown for those of less equine understanding.


----------



## HombresArablegacy (Oct 12, 2013)

I just watched the video in question on Facebook several times, and it actually looks like the horse fell asleep while going forward: the head got lower and lower until he dropped to his knees. But the rider, Penelope Leprevost then kicks/spurs him and immediately yanks on the reins to halt him, not once, but 4 separate times afterwards. It looked like she was trying to wake him up. 
I'll leave it at that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

HombresArablegacy said:


> I just watched the video in question on Facebook several times, and it actually looks like the horse fell asleep while going forward: the head got lower and lower until he dropped to his knees. But the rider, Penelope Leprevost then kicks/spurs him and immediately yanks on the reins to halt him, not once, but 4 separate times afterwards. It looked like she was trying to wake him up.
> I'll leave it at that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I forgot to say as it was something I noticed with the horses head hanging very low and made me wonder if there wasn't something wrong or at least not normal as it did drag it along a fair bit. That said it would seem a harsh way to wake up a horse.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Is there a place we can see the video? (I did a brief check on You-tube but didn't see it).


----------



## HombresArablegacy (Oct 12, 2013)

trailhorserider said:


> Is there a place we can see the video? (I did a brief check on You-tube but didn't see it).


You will have go to FB and enter Penelope Leprevost video in the search bar to find the video. And FYI, the video was taken from someone watching it on tv. I couldn't find it online without a link to FB, which is why I didn't post the video.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

It's on YouTube


----------



## EdmontonHorseGal (Jun 2, 2013)

instances like this are why i tend to not even go view shows, never mind participate.

i know i'd be likely to march right into the warm up ring, put my hand on the reins, and ask the rider to kindly step off their horse and explain to me why they felt the need to use such abusive practices. as much as that's the right thing to do, i'd likely get arrested for 'interfering' or some other reason the rider would be up in arms about because she wasn't allowed to continue treating her horse like a machine.


----------



## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Hmm.....not sure if I really see this as abuse. That is a very strong word, and it looks like she is correcting the horse. I DO think she should have dismounted after the stumble and at least LOOKED at the horse. And yes, EVERY equine sport has what some might view as "abuse". You can find it in almost every warm up arena, at every age, at every show. From trainers warming up a horse to frustrated kids yanking and spurring.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

That wasn't that bad of a stumble really. Unfortunately I've had horses go down with me completely and I've rolled over their head.

I think her reaction was to get mad because she got the rush of adrenaline from almost going down. Still, I suppose I expected to see worse. I thought something happened repeatedly???

Anyhow, kind of non-news to me. While I haven't corrected like that for a horse falling (I figure they can't help it.....they don't want to go down either!) I admit I have done similar for a horse spooking. Not proud of that fact, but after the horse bolts and you almost come off and your life flashes before your eyes, your adrenaline is up more than is should be. And your kind of like "HEY, don't do that!"


----------



## EdmontonHorseGal (Jun 2, 2013)

all i've heard of this incident is here on the forum today, and i'm basing what i would be likely to do all on the photo and quoted text the OP posted. i have not yet watched the youtube link. 

if i saw a rider using that much force on the rein, and leaning their body back to that degree to aid in rein force, based on the circumstances and information provided, i would call that abusive practices.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

franknbeans said:


> Hmm.....not sure if I really see this as abuse. That is a very strong word, and it looks like she is correcting the horse.


We posted at the same time......I completely agree. While she lost her temper and probably shouldn't have kicked/jerked, I really wouldn't call that abuse. I've seen people on trail rides try to get their horse over to a gate and the horse knows how to do it but for whatever reason, isn't sidepassing over and they kick them with their spur to get them over. I really cringe when they do that, but I am not to the point of saying that rider abuses the horse. Because I know that particular rider and she isn't an abuser. I would say it's a momentary lapse of patience. Not something anyone is proud of, but not abuse. It's like how a parent may loose patience with a child on a rare occasion, but that doesn't make them an abusive parent.

There is a lot of abuse in the horse world, of this I'm sure. I just don't think most of us should throw stones because we have probably done something similar, even if we are normally very compassionate riders. I would call it a momentary lapse in judgement caused by the adrenaline rush of a scary experience.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

EdmontonHorseGal said:


> all i've heard of this incident is here on the forum today, and i'm basing what i would be likely to do all on the photo and quoted text the OP posted. i have not yet watched the youtube link.
> 
> if i saw a rider using that much force on the rein, and leaning their body back to that degree to aid in rein force, based on the circumstances and information provided, i would call that abusive practices.


Maybe watch the video and see if you feel the same. You might. But I didn't find the video as shocking as the photo and article link suggested it might be. She did wrong. But I wouldn't cry abuse personally based on what I saw.


----------



## EdmontonHorseGal (Jun 2, 2013)

in both my posts on this thread i mentioned that she was using abusive practices according to what i saw in the photo and by the description given, note i did not say that she is somebody that abuses their horses 24/7.

abuse/abusive practices, whatever you want to call it, does not have to happen all the time to be able to see somebody using those practices. it could be just once, and if it is in the public eye then folks will see and many will speak about the mistreatment. if it's enough to upset people then i would think it's the wrong thing to be doing, eh?


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Poor gelding needs some chiro and massage now 

He should have reared and kicked her right smack dead center in the head.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

EdmontonHorseGal said:


> in both my posts on this thread i mentioned that she was using abusive practices according to what i saw in the photo and by the description given, note i did not say that she is somebody that abuses their horses 24/7.
> 
> abuse/abusive practices, whatever you want to call it, does not have to happen all the time to be able to see somebody using those practices. it could be just once, and if it is in the public eye then folks will see and many will speak about the mistreatment. if it's enough to upset people then i would think it's the wrong thing to be doing, eh?


I said it was wrong. I just suspect practically every one of us has done something similar at some point, but it hasn't been filmed and we aren't world-class riders so no one took notice. He that is without sin should cast the first stone. :wink:


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> Poor gelding needs some chiro and massage now
> 
> He should have reared and kicked her right smack dead center in the head.


Well that is a helpful comment...not. What a horrible thing to say.


----------



## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

Hoofpic said:


> Poor gelding needs some chiro and massage now
> 
> He should have reared and kicked her right smack dead center in the head.


So far most are seeing a trip/stumble - with some suggestion of the horse being sleepy/distracted and hence the low hanging head.

What are you seeing/interpreting that is different an thus requires more medical/therapy approach ?


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Hoofpic said:


> Poor gelding needs some chiro and massage now
> 
> He should have reared and kicked her right smack dead center in the head.


You better hope that your horse is as forgiving as hers, because at some point, you are going to do something wrong, either accidentally or intentionally. 

I was all rainbows and butterflies when I started out, but 20 years later I've learned that not everything is black and white.


----------



## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

It looks to me like she was trying to encourage the horse to stretch at the beginning, notice how long her reins are. 

I don't think this is a horrible case of abuse, but certainly not good horsemanship. The rider is definitely in the wrong. That being said, I think we've all been guilty of yanking in our poor horses mouth when we shouldn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

You have to see the full video to understand why the complaints are being made, it isn't about her yanking the horse in the mouth as it comes up from the stumble and then seems to jump forward its what she does to the horse when she's warming it up that's abuse - and IMO it is most definitely abuse, though spurring a horse forwards with such force as she used and then hitting it hard in the mouth when it does what you've just asked it to do isn't good riding practice either
Incident happens at about 0:24 and she does it twice.


----------



## EdmontonHorseGal (Jun 2, 2013)

My own mare does a fair bit of tripping and stumbling under a rider (she's very green and has been having some issues), and both myself and our trainer have not ever used the same reaction as this rider. we quietly wait for mare to regain herself and we gently cue for what we were doing before the stumble. so i can truthfully say that in the same scenario my experience and thoughts are to not do what this rider did.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Look at the video I've posted - the complaints aren't all about what she did when the horse stumbled


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

jaydee said:


> You have to see the full video to understand why the complaints are being made, it isn't about her yanking the horse in the mouth as it comes up from the stumble and then seems to jump forward its what she does to the horse when she's warming it up that's abuse - and IMO it is most definitely abuse, though spurring a horse forwards with such force as she used and then hitting it hard in the mouth when it does what you've just asked it to do isn't good riding practice either
> Incident happens at about 0:24 and she does it twice.


I think I need a stamp made that says "I agree with Jaydee" because I seem to be saying a lot recently.

The initial reaction to the stumble, over the top maybe, but then I think back to my last show, when I had an over the top reaction to a mounting 'wobble'  shows do strange things to people, and it is not an excuse, but sometimes you react in an inappropriate way to something.

The later event, that is just plain bad riding, I guess she is trying to wake him up and make him sharper, but to ask him forward, then yank him back, just not a fair thing to do.


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

We all have our own definitions of abuse, and I believe the word is usually thrown around too easily. The FEI has rules. From the General rules, Article 142-Abuse of Horses:

1. No person may abuse a Horse during an Event or at any other time. “Abuse” means an action or omission which causes or is likely to cause pain or unnecessary discomfort to a Horse, including, but not limited to:

(i) To whip or beat a Horse excessively;

(ii) To subject a Horse to any kind of electric shock device;

(iii) To use spurs excessively or persistently;

(iv) To jab the Horse in the mouth with the bit or any other device;

(v) To compete using an exhausted, lame or injured Horse;

(vi) To "rap" a Horse.

(vii) To abnormally sensitise or desensitise any part of a Horse;

(viii) To leave a Horse without adequate food, drink or exercise;

(ix) To use any device or equipment which causes excessive pain to the Horse upon knocking down an obstacle.

2. Any person witnessing an Abuse must report it in the form of a Protest (Article 163) without delay. If an Abuse is witnessed during or in direct connection with an Event, it should be reported as a Protest (Article 163) to an Official. If the Abuse is witnessed at any other time it should be reported as a Protest (Article 163) to the Secretary General for referral to the
FEI Tribunal.


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Hoof pic, what exactly do YOU know of the jumping world??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

In fairness to hoofpic - you don't need to know anything about the jumping world to see that her treatment of the horse is wrong.


----------



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Overread said:


> So far most are seeing a trip/stumble - with some suggestion of the horse being sleepy/distracted and hence the low hanging head.
> 
> What are you seeing/interpreting that is different an thus requires more medical/therapy approach ?


Pulling back that hard on the reigns is abuse. The whole thing is just abuse.


----------



## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

Unfortunately, there is no hard, definite line between what is abuse, temporary lapse in good judgment, knee jerk aggressive behavior/reactions, bad horsemanship, or simply bad sportsmanship. To me this is an example of an action that falls right into that grey area between all of them. It's no surprise that many are calling this abuse and demanding immediate and drastic action, while on the other hand there are those that are hesitant to call it abuse. 

The thing that I have a hard time with is that the rider is a human being, and therefor not perfect. Was her initial reaction to her horse stumbling and the subsequent minutes after inappropriate? ABSOLUTLY!! Does a single lapse in judgment mean she forever needs to be grouped with others who beat constantly beat horses to within an inch of their lives or consistently subject their horses to extremely painful practices just to win? Probably not.

We've become a society of holding others to these extreme expectations and crucifying them when they prove to be human. Am I excusing what this rider did, of course not. I think it was un-called for. Do I think there needs to be drastic measures taken to punish this person and make them pay for this one incident, no. Had this been a reoccurring reaction this rider had to things, my feelings would probably be different.

I don't care who you are or how great of a rider you think you are or how others see you as, 100% of us have ALL done things we wished we hadn't. Whether is was for 5 seconds or 5 minutes. We ALL make mistakes, it's when you make them over and over and over again without learning from them that something needs to be done.


----------



## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

Hoofpic said:


> Pulling back that hard on the reigns is abuse. The whole thing is just abuse.


Reins not reigns
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> Pulling back that hard on the reigns is abuse. The whole thing is just abuse.


OK REINS, not reigns, that is abuse, and you keep abusing the English language, same as STRETCHES not 'scretches' 


Now same as your abuse of the language, the whole thing is NOT abuse, but a part of it was.

The reaction to the stumble, over the top, but that's what it was a reaction, and it is very hard to predict what you will do as a reaction to something like that. I would find it hard to call that abuse, I know when Fergie spooks, I overreact at times, I pull on her mouth, I often make an involuntary noise, because well it is a reaction. I'm trying to substitute more appropriate reactions, but it takes a while.

Now the deliberate spurring and pulling back I do see as abusive, but that is a couple of actions, not ALL OF IT, big difference.

Now your reaction to it "He should have reared and kicked her right smack dead center in the head." is an over the top reaction, wishing death on a person for their mis handling of her horse, and lets face it, bad though it was, the horse _probably_ has no physical trauma from the incident, is the same as her over reaction to the incident itself.


----------



## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Wow, based on this post, I thought I was going to see something horrific in the video (I read first and then watched). The worse part, in my opinion, was how badly he stumbled. I haven't ever seen a horse trip that badly. 

I do think it was wrong of her to punish him for that. I think she overreacted, and I agree that pushing him forward and then yanking back was wrong. However, even though it was harsh, it was only a second or two. I think the way the horse threw his head up the way he did makes it look even worse. I'm not saying it's right, but I've seen WAAAAAAY worse things at every single horse show I've ever been to, especially before/after the speed events. 

As others have said, she did over-discipline her horse. But, she's undoubtedly nervous, probably shaken up that her horse just about fell before an event, and not thinking clearly. Let's not crucify the woman. 

Things like this make me hate the internet. I probably would have had my kids taken away by now if my every parenting move was on video. 99% of the time I'm a pretty good parent, but who hasn't lost it and gone all irrational over something really stupid at least once or twice?


----------



## EdmontonHorseGal (Jun 2, 2013)

Jan1975 said:


> ........................ I think the way the horse threw his head up the way he did makes it look even worse......................


from what i see he threw his head up in reaction to her booting on his sides. rider made it worse, horse didn't make it look worse.


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

> Now your reaction to it "He should have reared and kicked her right smack dead center in the head." is an over the top reaction, wishing death on a person for their mis handling of her horse, and lets face it, bad though it was, the horse probably has no physical trauma from the incident, is the same as her over reaction to the incident itself.


The horse walked into the ring moments later after the incident with a vets okay, and jumped a clear round over a 5* championship course.


----------



## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

EdmontonHorseGal said:


> from what i see he threw his head up in reaction to her booting on his sides. rider made it worse, horse didn't make it look worse.


I'm not saying what she did was right. I'm just saying it looks like she yanked his head back and he threw that up himself. Based on the kick, yes.


----------



## EdmontonHorseGal (Jun 2, 2013)

trailhorserider said:


> Maybe watch the video and see if you feel the same. You might. But I didn't find the video as shocking as the photo and article link suggested it might be. She did wrong. But I wouldn't cry abuse personally based on what I saw.


i have now had a chance to watch the short 20 second video and i will continue to say that this rider used abusive practices in this scenario. she kicked the horse hard then jerked/jabbed him in the mouth right after. said to the horse 'you go! but wait, no, now you stop!'. you don't do that. ever. and it goes against an FEI rule:

"(iv) To jab the Horse in the mouth with the bit or any other device;"


----------



## HombresArablegacy (Oct 12, 2013)

jaydee said:


> You have to see the full video to understand why the complaints are being made, it isn't about her yanking the horse in the mouth as it comes up from the stumble and then seems to jump forward its what she does to the horse when she's warming it up that's abuse - and IMO it is most definitely abuse, though spurring a horse forwards with such force as she used and then hitting it hard in the mouth when it does what you've just asked it to do isn't good riding practice either
> Incident happens at about 0:24 and she does it twice.


Thanks you!!! I saw her do it 4 times in the video, last time at the opposite side of the ring from where he first went down. The youtube video posted earlier only shows when he fell, then cuts to jumping footage. The horse did nothing wrong and each time she kicks him, he's just responding to her cues. Then she cranks on his mouth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

If that is called abuse, then the ENTIRE horse industry is in way deeper stuff than any of us ever imagined.


----------



## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

I did not read every post, but my question is WHY? 

What was the point? Abusive or not it sure was mean.
Did she think the horse tripped on purpose?
Does she think what she did would make the horse pick up his feet?
She was ****ed for some reason, and took it out on the horse. In the mean time displaying Horrid horsemanship.
She not only did it the three times right away but she did it later on the other side of the ring.
What an idiot for thinking punishing your horse in that manner is justified or even productive. I have no respect.

And for whom ever said we have all done something like this before...NO, I have lost my cool plenty times and I have Never punished a horse with the bit.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

AGAIN - 
Move away from what she did when the horse stumbled - watch the longer video that I've put up and HombreA has copied and see what she does when she's warming the horse up - not sure if its before or after the stumbling incident - but the horse at this point is doing nothing wrong at all - just 'riding the rail', on one pull she's so hard on his mouth she nearly has him sitting on the floor
She should never have been allowed to go in the ring after so blatantly breaking the rules like that


----------



## EdmontonHorseGal (Jun 2, 2013)

i've now also watched the 54 second video and i'm more appalled than earlier. 

i agree jaydee, she should have been disqualified from competing after that.


----------



## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

jaydee said:


> AGAIN -
> Move away from what she did when the horse stumbled - watch the longer video that I've put up and HombreA has copied and see what she does when she's warming the horse up - not sure if its before or after the stumbling incident - but the horse at this point is doing nothing wrong at all - just 'riding the rail', on one pull she's so hard on his mouth she nearly has him sitting on the floor
> She should never have been allowed to go in the ring after so blatantly breaking the rules like that


I didn't see that video the first time around. I was basing my comments on the stumbling video.


----------



## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

my 2 cents

The way that horse went down didn't look like a normal stumble to me, he was falling asleep/ or lack of oxygen IMO. Was he drugged? Heart problem? 

If she couldn't wake him up with a kick or short flick of the whip then he probably needed to be checked by vet. But in the middle of the event, you tend to feel obliged to finish it and if the horse has seemed well before hand you don't immediately suspect something dreadful.

The spurring/jabbing was uncalled for. It was poor horsemanship. It was bad temper. In the normal scheme of things, bad temper is something we learn to control as we grow up. Some take longer to learn it than others. This girl will probably feel bad about the incident for the rest of her life, even if there had been no video. I'm sure we all have a handful or two of incidents we wish we had handled better, and thank god there was no video!

I kind of feel sorry for this girl, the 'witch hunt' reference was appropriate. And the ****ed do-gooders will want to ban the whole industry for one incident.

FEI is not a nanny state. They set up rules and guidelines so that horses and riders compete fairly and safely. Just because they don't blurt their reports all over social media doesn't mean they haven't looked into it, or taken action. And nor should they be putting everything on social media. I would think they would ask this girl to explain herself and give her a recommendation as to her behaviour. Not necessarily even a warning. End of matter.

:think:


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

_I didn't see that video the first time around. I was basing my comments on the stumbling video._

Yeah, me too. There is really no good excuse after the initial stumble/reaction. I could forgive that. But what's the point of doing it later? 

But that kind of answers the fuzziness I had after reading the article earlier in the thread. They made it seem like there were repeated incidents and I only saw one the first time around. 

Still, I am sure on the whole yardstick of what people do with their horses, this is sadly one of the more minor offenses.


----------



## Idrivetrotters (Jan 5, 2013)

No the FEI is not a nanny state, but they are also not very good at playing by their own rules. This horse stumbled BADLY, if at a horse race, the horse would have most likely have been scratched and as a minimum, a veterinarian would have checked the horse before going to the gate. This horse did not see a vet until AFTER the competition from the article I read. The Steward may have contacted somebody, but they have the authority to do more than allow this poor riding and possibly injured horse to continue without medical intervention.

This is an example of very poor horsemanship, poor ring stewardship, and an incredible job of "Covering Buttocks" to keep the bad press down.

Yes, I do have a serious problem with the FEI, Princess Haya had allowed rampant abuse and rampant cheating because her husband competes at FEI level Endurance, and hosts many FEI rides. This goes beyond Endurance, there have been a lot of issues with the FEI not following their own rules in Reining, Dressage, and Show Jumping. If the majority of the horse events they cover have such glaring problems, what else is going on that they are hiding? It seems the FEI only reacts when social media reacts. That is not making for good stewardship of equestrian sports.

I just think this rider is just a symptom of a much larger problem that goes beyond the FEI. Poor horsemanship and poor horse husbandry is rewarded irregardless of the damage that may happen to the horse. I love competition, but it should make us better, not worse.


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

EdmontonHorseGal said:


> instances like this are why i tend to not even go view shows, never mind participate.
> 
> i know i'd be likely to march right into the warm up ring, put my hand on the reins, and ask the rider to kindly step off their horse and explain to me why they felt the need to use such abusive practices. as much as that's the right thing to do, i'd likely get arrested for 'interfering' or some other reason the rider would be up in arms about because she wasn't allowed to continue treating her horse like a machine.


It is not just shows. Go out trail riding over the weekend and watch the weekend warriors on their out of shape horses. 

It is very sad and discouraging.


----------



## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

ShirtHotTeez said:


> my 2 cents
> 
> The way that horse went down didn't look like a normal stumble to me, he was falling asleep/ or lack of oxygen IMO. Was he drugged? Heart problem?


I thought the same thing...he didn't seem to have great reflexes in reacting to that stumble. Especially for a jumper...he should be very quick on his feet & agile!


----------



## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

EdmontonHorseGal said:


> i have now had a chance to watch the short 20 second video and i will continue to say that this rider used abusive practices in this scenario. she kicked the horse hard then jerked/jabbed him in the mouth right after. said to the horse 'you go! but wait, no, now you stop!'. you don't do that. ever. and it goes against an FEI rule:
> 
> "(iv) To jab the Horse in the mouth with the bit or any other device;"


To me it looked like she kicked him hard (for whatever reason)but was surprised by his reaction & almost went off backwards, thus the leaning back & using the reins to stay on. The picture is a bad moment in time but she did have a bit of a temper going on too.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'd throw a stone, but the glass walls of my house would explode.

I wish I could say I had never been a total jerk to my horse(s), but no such luck. Can't speak to the rules/show side of things, and punishment by those rules, but my horses would probably think:

"_At least she didn't throw a plastic food bucket at his butt, _
_or chase him around waving a poop scoop and shouting rude things about his dam and sire, _
_or suggest he do something anatomically impossible..._"

Happily, my horses are forgiving sorts.​


----------



## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

I'm just thinking, which is worse, what she did or Marilyn little's horses with huge bits and bloody mouths ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Okay first of all, Hoofpic that was a horrible thing to say! You had better hope that your horse has more patience with you when you do something stupid.

Okay Ithink abuse is such a strong word. Do I think she screwed up royally? YES Do I think what she did was harsh and should have been handled better? YES

But can I preach that I am perfect? No and I bet none of us on here can. 
I **** well hope though she is disqualified and that she has learned her lesson because that was horrible horsemanship.


----------



## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Idrivetrotters said:


> No the FEI is not a nanny state, but they are also not very good at playing by their own rules. This horse stumbled BADLY, if at a horse race, the horse would have most likely have been scratched and as a minimum, a veterinarian would have checked the horse before going to the gate. This horse did not see a vet until AFTER the competition from the article I read. The Steward may have contacted somebody, but they have the authority to do more than allow this poor riding and possibly injured horse to continue without medical intervention.
> 
> This is an example of very poor horsemanship, poor ring stewardship, and an incredible job of "Covering Buttocks" to keep the bad press down.
> 
> ...


You are reacting to a whole different incident. FEI is a worldwide organisation and in general they do a great job. I am glad we have them. If there is a rotten apple in the bunch, they need exposing, but it is unreasonable to tar the whole organisation with one brush. Where you have one person on a committee and close relative competing you are set up for problems, most organisations won't allow it so its not even possible for (what you described) to occur. If you see the organization bending there own rules, report in the appropriate way. This example is not relevant in any way to the incident being discussed.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

All I'm going to say, is that warm up sure shows abuse, and that no discipline is immune from such riders
It is also why many shows now have monitoring of the warm up area


----------



## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

updownrider said:


> FEI looking into full circumstances of World Cup incident concerning Penelope Leprevost | World of Showjumping
> 
> Bolding mine. Read the article, and the quote from Monday, the day of the competition. The FEI ring steward reported it to the FEI and the Chief Steward, following protocol. They did not "turn a blind eye".
> 
> ...


Sorry but I highly doubt if the FEI will do anything at all about this and the other abuses and I really don't care if the person doing this is embarrassed about social media getting involved. Chances are that the FEI will wait for the complaints to die down, maybe issue a mild warning and then continue on as always.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Unless you go to the FEI or any governing body of horse sports, you will generally not know what they are investigating nor the punishments dealt out. 

You are always going to get icidents of bad horsemanship in any sport, it is up to the organisers to have experienced ring stewards in the warm up areas who are not intimidated by a famous name and will film and report them. 

With today's society calling out cruelty for smacking a child or a dog, the federations and show organisers want to keep things as clean as possible.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Just been to where riders have been banned by the F.E.I.

Twelve bans in 2015 - eight in endurance, one dressage and one jumping two not disclosed as to which sport. 

Of the Endurance bans five were from middle eastern countries, two France, one USA. 

The dressage was Columbia. 

Suspensions of riders vary in length.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I don't feel at all sorry for her, she needs to learn to control her temper and stop setting a bad example for all the young kids who watch top riders and think if they do it its OK. 
She's now become a poster girl for the anti-bit brigade and the anti- horse sport brigade. We don't need that
Irish rider Bertram Allen was disqualified and lost his first place in a big competition at Olympia last year (UK) because some tiny marks were seen on the horses side where the riders spur probably caught him when his leg moved back too much, they were barely visible and his round looked well ridden - no sign of abuse so no ban but it cost him a lot of money - they are pretty hot on the rules, so I hope she gets hit hard for it
Bertram Allen by comparison did nothing bad at all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-yZrpxKI34


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

The first thought of the steward should have been to drug test the horse.


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

jaydee said:


> Irish rider Bertram Allen was disqualified and lost his first place in a big competition at Olympia last year (UK) because some tiny marks were seen on the horses side where the riders spur probably caught him when his leg moved back too much, they were barely visible and his round looked well ridden - no sign of abuse so no ban but it cost him a lot of money - *they are pretty hot on the rules*, so I hope she gets hit hard for it
> Bertram Allen by comparison did nothing bad at all


I am going to disagree with you here, because you are comparing two scenarios. 

Going by FEI rules, any blood on the flank of a horse, as Bertram's mount Quiet Easy had, calls for mandatory disqualification in show jumping. FEI Jumping rule 242.3.1. The outcry over Bertram's disqualification was how there was no communication by show management, and if an FEI steward should be able to determine if a small amount of blood on one horse is not abuse while another amount of blood on another horse is abuse. 

With Penelope's actions, there is no rule that calls for mandatory disqualification.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I will bet the horse was drug tested, in international competitions drug testing is random and many horses tested.


----------



## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

I will just add that I have been pulled aside and questioned by the ring steward at competition before, not even a high level competition, either, and I was glad they did so. 
I was competing in 3 day eventing and at the dressage warm up I got pulled aside just before entering the ring due to blood on my horse. Turns out one of his sarcoids sloughed and he was bleeding down the inside of his hind leg. He was an all white grey horse so of course a little blood looked like a lot. My mom ran to the trailer to grab some rags and the vet note I had handy explaining his care and circumstances. All was good, I was put at the end of the line of riders and had to wait an hour, but I was seriously happy the ring steward caught it. Same show 2 riders were punished for excessive use of the crop. 

So, in my experience, ring stewards (at least in my discipline in my area at my level) are enforcing rules. It doesn't mean they catch 100% of the abusive riding, but they try. 


As for the video, I am saddened to see such a talented rider stoop to that level. I don't think she is abusive generally, but she may want to reconsider some of her techniques. I am hoping this was a one-time issue and the heat of the moment just got to her. Punishment should be dealt out then let her learn and grow instead of lambasting her.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

At a Bronze Level show here last year a judge DQ'd a rider because she called the horse lame. No one else saw obvious lameness, and we know it wasn't political, I genuinely believe that judge saw something and called it, and was pleased to see it.



karliejaye said:


> I am hoping this was a one-time issue and the heat of the moment just got to her. Punishment should be dealt out then let her learn and grow instead of lambasting her.


That is a luxury we tend to allow horses more than riders, learning and growing, making mistakes and getting better because of them.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Showing in the UK is very different to the US. I was at Horse of the Year Show where the cereal of the cream were competing, all had to qualify to get there.

They have the preliminary classes early morning and then the finale is judged in the evening with only the top eight animals going forward from the preliminary class.

The First Ridden, ponies 12.2 and under was judged and lined up. As the judges went to award the first prize to avert pretty pony, it spooked and wouldn't let them present the rosette or cup so that pony was relegated to the bottom of the eight as First Ridden ponies are meant to be bomb proof. 

Obviously it caused quite a fuss from the pony owners but,mint wasn't bomb proof.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Good horse ethics are taught, often at a young age.
I still re-call an incident that I admire a fellow horse person that I showed with
This friend showed reining and now is involved with ranch horse versatility.
At the time of that incident, her daughters were in 4H,and the oldest was riding her reining mare. Being frustrated , that child jerked on her mom's horse, in the warm up
My friend told her daughter to get off the horse, that she was done for the day, and they were going home, standing firm, in spite of her daughter's tears
That daughter is now grown, and is a very respected horse woman, having trained working horses in Germany, and now also involved in Ranch Horse versatility, regularly beating the men!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> Showing in the UK is very different to the US. I was at Horse of the Year Show where the cereal of the cream were competing, all had to qualify to get there.
> 
> They have the preliminary classes early morning and then the finale is judged in the evening with only the top eight animals going forward from the preliminary class.
> 
> ...


Well, I lost a pleasure class, in the line up, after the class was over, once!
I was riding our young stallion and he had a very good go. In the line up, unfortunately,waiting for the placings, a mare two horses down decided to pee, and my horse had a 'stallion' moment', nothing serious, but I saw the judge put a big line down on a number on his place card!


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

updownrider said:


> I am going to disagree with you here, because you are comparing two scenarios.
> 
> Going by FEI rules, any blood on the flank of a horse, as Bertram's mount Quiet Easy had, calls for mandatory disqualification in show jumping. FEI Jumping rule 242.3.1. The outcry over Bertram's disqualification was how there was no communication by show management, and if an FEI steward should be able to determine if a small amount of blood on one horse is not abuse while another amount of blood on another horse is abuse.
> 
> With Penelope's actions, there is no rule that calls for mandatory disqualification.


I see it differently, FEI Jumping Rules Article 242.3.1 calls for mandatory disqualification if a horse is found to be bleeding anywhere on the flanks or in the mouth or nose *indicating excessive use or spurs or the whip.* 
In Bertram's case the video evidence clearly shows that he at no time used his spurs excessively and so the marks were accidental - yet in Penelope's case video evidence clearly shows that she did deliberately use the spurs excessively and used excessive force on the horses mouth - she was just lucky they didn't leave a mark on the horse
Maybe its time the interpretation of the rule was looked into if she's allowed to get away with it purely on a technicality


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

jaydee said:


> I see it differently, FEI Jumping Rules Article 242.3.1 calls for mandatory disqualification if a horse is found to be bleeding anywhere on the flanks or in the mouth or nose *indicating excessive use or spurs or the whip.*
> In Bertram's case the video evidence clearly shows that he at no time used his spurs excessively and so the marks were accidental - yet in Penelope's case video evidence clearly shows that she did deliberately use the spurs excessively and used excessive force on the horses mouth - she was just lucky they didn't leave a mark on the horse
> Maybe its time the interpretation of the rule was looked into if she's allowed to get away with it purely on a technicality



I personally believe Bertram should not have been eliminated, he rode a beautiful round. But blood from a spur mark is blood from spur mark. There is no rule that called for mandatory elimination for Penelope's actions. I am not disagreeing with you about that the rules should be reviewed.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I see it differently, FEI Jumping Rules Article 242.3.1 calls for mandatory disqualification if a horse is found to be bleeding anywhere on the flanks or in the mouth or nose *indicating excessive use or spurs or the whip.*
> In Bertram's case the video evidence clearly shows that he at no time used his spurs excessively and so the marks were accidental - yet in Penelope's case video evidence clearly shows that she did deliberately use the spurs excessively and used excessive force on the horses mouth - she was just lucky they didn't leave a mark on the horse
> Maybe its time the interpretation of the rule was looked into if she's allowed to get away with it purely on a technicality


Similar rule in working cowhorse. One of my friends, who rode a few spot leopard, in working cowhorse, was disqualified, when he accidently hooked his horse with the spur, turning the cow on the fence
A white cloth run over the horse, in the spur area, came away with some blood, that clinched what was seen visibly during that run


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

General stock horse rules for disqualification:

83.4 In any performance class, the judge:
a) 
c) Will disqualify a horse that has an open wound and a horse that shows traces of blood;
d) Will disqualify a horse if the horse appears sullen, dull, lethargic, emaciated, drawn or overly tired.
e) Will disqualify a horse any time a horse‟s mouth is bleeding.
f) Is not to penalise a horse for the manner in which it carries its tail nor for normal response with its tail to cues
from its rider or when changing leads

Rules are rules, and exceptions can't be made, or they become meaningless


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I am surprised that rules for disqualification, for obvious abuse in the warmup, are not in place by that governing body!
Had a reiner disqualified one year at the Canadian Supreme, when he was observed using a bat to hit his horse between the ears, in a sliding stop, to get that present desired low head
Similarly,at an approved ApHC show, some gymkhana/roping person , was observed jerking his horse;s mouth like that, in the warm up, and disqualified from the show


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here are the rules for prohibited conduct at AQHA shows.
Excessive spurring or jerking on the reins is included
How do these rules compare to the one the rider in question was showing under?

AQHA Handbook


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Article 243 of the FEI rules covers abuse and the penalties you incur which range through Yellow card, fine, elimination and disqualification
Excessive use of the spurs is mentioned in 2.3 of that article and says that a rider found to be doing that should be penalized appropriately under these (abuse) rules. Throughout that entire incident caught on video she was without a doubt using her spurs excessively 
There doesn't need to be blood to enforce this rule
Its forbidden to use a whip more than three times in a row and when a rider uses a whip in temper its always deemed as being excessive.
She was acting in temper even though she tried to say afterwards in her apology statement that she acted out of fear


----------



## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

jaydee said:


> You have to see the full video to understand why the complaints are being made, it isn't about her yanking the horse in the mouth as it comes up from the stumble and then seems to jump forward its what she does to the horse when she's warming it up that's abuse - and IMO it is most definitely abuse, though spurring a horse forwards with such force as she used and then hitting it hard in the mouth when it does what you've just asked it to do isn't good riding practice either
> Incident happens at about 0:24 and she does it twice.
> Penelope Leprevost incident - YouTube


It also looked like at the very end of the video that she started to kick and pull again but they either cut the video or stopped taping. Such a shame. Poor pony.


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

2.3 says "as specified in the VR's", which mentions spurs once. As I understand the rules, a vet has no authority alone to eliminate a competitor. 

In the General Rules, Article 159.8.3 states that the Ground Jury should refer to the Appeal Committee any matter concerning alleged acts of abuse of Horses that does not require immediate action for the purpose of judging a Competition.

The veterinarian determined the horse was fit to compete, and was not wrong in that decision since the horse jumped a 5* course without error. The FEI is investigating, and I would hope it will result in something more than nothing.


----------



## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

Just for comparison sake, here's the NRCHA's rules on treatment of the horse (emphasis added; they also have rules as to treatment of the cattle - Rule 14.2.1 et seq.):




> 14.2.2 Care and Treatment of Reined Cow Horses
> 
> 14.2.2.1 THE NATIONAL REINED COW HORSE ASSOCIATION TAKES VERY SERIOUSLY THE WELFARE OF THESE GREAT HORSES THAT WE ARE DEVOTED TO. *Inhumane treatment of a horse in any manner in the show arena, practice pen or on the show grounds is strictly prohibited*.
> 
> ...


----------



## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

Smilie said:


> All I'm going to say, is that warm up sure shows abuse, and that *no discipline* is immune from such riders
> It is also why many shows now have monitoring of the warm up area


 I think this is a great answer to OP's original question.


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I have personally witnessed worse treatment of reining horses in MONITORED warm ups than that video. You cannot legislate common sense.


----------



## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

In regards those incidents Jaydee and GH, and other incidents similar, it is great they are finding these things but IMO if disqualification is going to be called then I believe a second opinion should be sought by another steward and a vet. Otherwise you are opening up a window that *potentially *allows unfair Dq to manipulate results.

I still believe most people want the best for their horses and being over pc about rules will ruin the sport not enhance it. That chestnut Jaydee showed us - Dq was over the top for that. The girl we are discussing - minding ones temper comes with age, some never learn to. If we all have to wait till we are perfect people most of us would never have horses/animals. It is more appropriate that when we see it, it is dealt with and the person spoken to. Often, that really is enough especially when it is a public disgrace. This is a type of incidence where video record is not helpful, but now we have to live with it. I believe that appropriate animal authorities (any animal) have to be very careful not to overreact to calls of 'abuse' from people with no knowledge or understanding of those animals, especially now that everything is recorded by anyone at all.

The extreme outcome of going down that road is that any animal will only be able to be kept as a pampered pet so no-one will breed them because they cant be ridden/ driven/ competed/ jumped/ raced/ worked. Maybe these do-gooders are vergetarian because you can't be so extreme to shut all that down and still eat them - can you?

I really hope we can keep some common sense about this.

:gallop:


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Penelope Leprevost has offered her “sincere apologies” for the way she rode her horse in the Gothenburg warm-up ring.

The French showjumper published a statement on her Facebook page accepting that she “over-reacted” to Monday’s (28 March) incident.

H&H reported that Penelope’s horse, her World Cup final ride Vagabond De La Pomme, was caught on film stumbling badly, nose touching the ground, while trotting on a long rein in the collecting ring.


His rider’s reaction attracted widespread criticism as the video was shared online.

The FEI has since announced it will be investigating the incident, describing Penelope’s reaction as “very rough”.

Penelope’s statement, published today, reads: “People have been upset by images broadcast via social networks of my horse Vagabond De La Pomme who nearly fell during the warm-up before the World Cup Final in Gothenburg.

“My horse was trotting, very relaxed and with his head down, when he stumbled. It was actually quite frightening and I really thought that both of us were going to fall down.

“I immediately checked that he was not injured. I then wanted him to pull himself together. My goal was to wake him up but not to push him too hard. The French team’s vet also checked that he was fine and had no problems.


“I am deeply sorry that I over-reacted and was too strong with my horse and I want to express my sincere apologies.


“I place great importance on the trust and cooperation between myself and my horses. I also have the greatest respect for their state of mind and their physical well-being." 


Poor excuse to my mind. If you are frightened by a horse stumbling then you wouldn't have the guts to jump the fences!


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Nor do you pull so hard on its mouth that it runs backwards and is in danger of sitting down and rolling over on you - and not once but I think 4 times she did that
If I thought my horse was so lethargic it needed waking up to that extent I would think it was ill and withdraw from the competition - for my own safety and the horses well being


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

greentree said:


> I have personally witnessed worse treatment of reining horses in MONITORED warm ups than that video. You cannot legislate common sense.


No you can't, but you can put in a formal complaint, versus just observing and giving your opinion to people who have no capacity to do anything about it
If you see obvious abuse, as per guidelines of the organization the show ie run under, present it to the show committee, versus just to friends and the general public.
When you see true animal neglect,you report it tot he SPCA, and not to your buddies, nor do you compare that perhaps down the road , you seen horses more neglected. That comparison does nothing


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I gave two examples, where horses were eliminated for the show, due to observed abuse in the warmup, and where the show committee had the guts to do something, versus having rules in place that are nothing more then a token gesture.

There was a reiner, from Ontario, eliminated from the Alberta cowhorse Supreme, a premium venue for both reining and working cowhorse
He was observed tapping his horse between the ears, in the stop, with a bat, in the warmup, to achieve that low head set stop, now rewarded

Second was at an ApHC show, where a senior youth was eliminated from the show., 
He rode in games and roping, and was observed using similar excessive jerking on his horse;s mouth, in the warmup
You don't discipline a horse, by spurring him forward, and then jerking him in the mouth, hard enough to have that horse start to go over
You can sit on the fence, compare to other abuse you have seen, justify apathy by comparing to worse abuse you have seen,elsewhere, and in the end, that is useless, far as improving the public image and standards in the horse competition industry


----------

