# Bays with pangere or is it just brown



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

A bay horse is a black based horse with the agouti gene present. It can be red bay (no lighter muzzle and flank) or brown (lighter muzzle and flank) which is still bay just a different variation. Pangere is a totally different gene and you can have a bay with pangere is my understanding but that is a bay with pangere not a brown. Let's see if this pic will copy it is from wikipedia and shows the underside of a bay with pangere.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

QtrBel said:


> A bay horse is a black based horse with the agouti gene present. It can be red bay (no lighter muzzle and flank) or brown (lighter muzzle and flank) which is still bay just a different variation. Pangere is a totally different gene and you can have a bay with pangere is my understanding but that is a bay with pangere not a brown. Let's see if this pic will copy it is from wikipedia and shows the underside of a bay with pangere.


 
But with the advances in the testing with PetDNA are we sure that standard pangere bay isn't really just another brown that has yet to be test verified?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Pangere and brown look completely different. 

Pangere expresses as very light tan, almost beige, coloring on the soft points of a horse (like the one QrtrBel posted). It is visible regardless of season.

Brown expresses as a more cinnamon/orange color and is often seasonal. My friend has an Arab gelding who is brown. He looks a deep, mahogany bay color in summer (almost maroon) with a slightly orange muzzle. In winter, he is often almost black with very visible orange soft points.

Pangere is a completely different gene than agouti (of which bay and brown are versions, along with wild bay). We know this because pangere often expresses on red-based horses, whereas bay cannot express on a red-based horse, as bay restricts black (and since black is dominant, red-based horses have no black to restrict).

Also, just a slight correction to QrtrBel. Brown is not the same as bay. They are different versions of the agouti gene, but are two separate, distinct, testable genes.
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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Just from sheer numbers, it's likely that the horses she's talking about are seal brown and not bay with pangare. I see MANY more seal brown horses than bays with pangare.

In most cases, it's fairly easy to distinguish between them. The lighter colored muzzle, as was mentioned, will be a warm cinnamon-y color in seal brown horses, and a pale, gray shade in pangare horses. Seal brown horses will also have the other characteristics of a seal brown horse, such as seasonal variation in shade (in the summer they're often lighter with the lighter colored muzzle non-obvious, and darker across the whole body in the winter with the lighter colored muzzle usually very obvious)


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Personally I think my Jet is brown with pangare. 


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