# Catching interesting jumping positions of "professional" riders



## ElaineLighten (Jan 1, 2012)

I went to an agricultural show this year and there was a showjumping ring that I spent half the day at :lol:
I took some snaps of random riders, hoping to get a good action, mid air shot, and this is one of the ones I snapped!
BLIMEY!









Have you caught any ... interesting riding shots at big shows?


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I believe there is a rule on this forum that you can only post pics of yourself.


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## PurpleMonkeyWrench (Jun 12, 2012)

I see no problem posting it the riders face is not visible....


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

id think if you took the photo it shouldnt matter. Ive seen tons of people post pix of others horses.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Shoot, if i was faced with a jump like that, id have my arms wrapped around the horses neck and eyes squeezed shut. ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Back2Horseback (Mar 21, 2012)

I'm sure everyone here is familiar with this, but I recently learned about a stadium jumping height test wherein a horse/rider pair must jump the same vertical over and over, with the exception to each round being the judges raising the height of the jump after each participant clears....they go again and again until no one is able to go clear (its on YouTube but I don't know how to cut and paste with my phone!)...I BELIEVE the most recent winner's final clear round was 7'7"!! If someone can find & cut/paste it, it's KIND of fitting with this OP's thread topic... ;0)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Know what, until one is jumping that height successfully, I don't think that one has much room to complain about another's position over a mighty big jump. 
Ian Miller (as an example I pulled off the top of my head) is certainly NOT a quiet rider... but he gets the job done. There are many jumper riders that have rather unconventional styles... but *I* have absolutely NO room to even start complaining about their way of riding.


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## Back2Horseback (Mar 21, 2012)

I was DEFINITELY NOT COMPLAINING...I am assuming that yours, JDI, was just a general statement, and not directed at me/anyone else on the thread??

I think the OP (not to speak for her, but she didn't comment yet, so please pardon if I'm out of bounds) was trying to start a thread about interesting jumping photo angles captured, which led ME to think about the "HOLY-COW"-HEIGHTS those particular jumpers in the competition I saw were SOARING TO!! 

I, @ least, would NEVER COMPLAIN about JUMPING positiin; except to MAYBE complain that I am not a good enough jumper anymore to hold a decent 2-point position(!) let ALONE manage 18" crossrails with grace or ease!

Hoping your comment was not coming from that point of view, cause mine sure wasn't! :0)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Back2Horseback (Mar 21, 2012)

I also think that as jumps get HUGE, jumper's positions change somewhat to accommodate the tremendous height and relative body position-changes a horse must make to propel itself over that size fence. I reread the OP's original post, & perhaps it does seem a bit snarky, but...until they comment, I'm choosing to believe they were just pointing out what I (tried) to describe above...if otherwise, here's my response:

I follow this particular rider/trainer on YouTube. She's MAYBE 20, & has done phenomenal work with her very young, very previously abused, and VERY forward horse...she's recorded it ALL...the start thru where she is now, after 2 years, & I think her gelding was 4 when she acquired him...wild, nearly dangerous, and has in such a short time turned him into the envy of all YouTube horse-enthusiasts!

Despite this, some people have had the nerve to very rudely comment on her slightly "unorthodox" hand position (nothing she does with her hands is rough, or severe in ANY WAY) she simply holds them slightly less forward and a bit (A BIT) lower than many riders...rather than near his withers and shoulder length apart, they are slightly further back, nearer her upper thighs and behind the wither an inch or so...

Who knows why, but who cares? She doesn't show him so where she holds her hands to me, and to probably 32,000 of her 32,050 subscribers is not of any consequence. Her very kind response, given how a few have "spoken" to her about it, is, "My horse is happy, in lovely condition, in excellent form, and we have an amazing bond...so please leave my hand position to me, thanks!" :0)

Same goes for AWESOME JUMPERS! If they can get their happy and well-conditioned teammates around the course clear, sound, & excited about their jobs (& manage to WIN on top of that) who cares if they have a slightly unorthodox position!

***I'm not a jumper now and at my highest, in my extreme youth, I was lucky if my schoolmasters and I cleared 3" routinely. I can hardly remember that time in my life, so I don't speak for/as the many amazing, extremely well-educated jumpers here! These are only the opinions of a slightly over-the-hill woman with barely 5 months under my belt of relearning to ride on the FLAT after 15 years out of saddle!! ;0)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

No, my comment was not directed at you, B2HB.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

Do you want pretty, or do you want effective?


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## Critter sitter (Jun 2, 2012)

MyBoyPuck said:


> I believe there is a rule on this forum that you can only post pics of yourself.


 I post pictures that ar not my self alot. My daughter :lol:


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## Country Woman (Dec 14, 2011)

Very nice picture Elaine. I love the height of the horse 
and your angle


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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

I think that the intention of this thread has been lost. Not to put words into the OP's mouth, but I don't think that the intention of this thread was to bash the riders. 

It was more of a "high level riders are generally expected to be paragons of good form and such, so let's see the pics that show off the fact that they are still human, just like us, and make silly mistakes too."

Cool your roll, people.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

grayshell38 said:


> It was more of a "high level riders are generally expected to be paragons of good form and such, so let's see the pics that show off the fact that they are still human, just like us, and make silly mistakes too."
> .


There are effective riders that have "improper" EQ positions over the fence most of the time, not "silly mistakes.."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ElaineLighten (Jan 1, 2012)

grayshell38 said:


> I think that the intention of this thread has been lost. Not to put words into the OP's mouth, but I don't think that the intention of this thread was to bash the riders.
> 
> It was more of a "high level riders are generally expected to be paragons of good form and such, so let's see the pics that show off the fact that they are still human, just like us, and make silly mistakes too."
> 
> Cool your roll, people.


Thank you for understanding what my thread was actually about 
Honestly wasn't bashing at the rider, no way I could jump that! I'd probably never be brave enough to jump that! 
This was simply a thread to show that I was taking pictures of the riders that I thought were amazing, then looked back and saw, as you said, that we're all in the same boat, they are human and make mistakes :lol: 

I hate it when people take things the wrong way


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## Fulford15 (Oct 17, 2012)

Jumpers isn't supposed to be "pretty", not based on equitation like the Hunter ring. I've seen some interesting positions in the Jumpers that would get torn apart in the Hunter ring, but they get the job done. I wouldn't expect someone in the jumpers doing a high level jump, turn-backs, triple bars, etc to have perfect EQ though. But like said above, although they don't look "pretty" they are very effective riders!

I was at Spruce Meadows Masters in September and got a sneak peek into the warm up ring, got to see the international riders being coached, like Eric Lamaze coaching Tiffany Foster, very neat!!


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## Fulford15 (Oct 17, 2012)

opps editing mistake, not sure how to delete this, sorry!


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## Critter sitter (Jun 2, 2012)

i have a video of my daughters horse hopping over a little jump .. But I would LOVE to see members pics.. I think they are so graceful when horse and rider work together


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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> There are effective riders that have "improper" EQ positions over the fence most of the time
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And? Did I say anything about the rider in the pictures' form? Or any riders/discipline specifically?
All I said was that you and several other users were perceiving that the OP was out to bash these riders, which was not the intention, as they stated. 

I was trying to be concise, however you seem wholly bent on being confrontational. Perhaps because I wasn't communicating effectively. My mistake. I apologize.

Let me clarify what I meant by "silly mistakes". As someone that does not watch H/J or really any professional riding, I really have no idea of individual riders' styles, however, as a general rule, there are proper or commonly taught ways of doing things. 

Secondly, as a general rule, one expects someone that is considered "High Level" or "Professional" to be very good (obviously) at what they do. 
It is not a far leap to also assume that one becomes expert by mastering the "right" ways of doing things. 

So, when one sees a pro doing something in a fashion that is not widely considered "correct in the usual way" it draws attention. 

Obviously they are good riders due to their status as widely applauded professionals, however, the human race is drawn to oddities and things out of the ordinary. 

However, I don't think that the OP even meant all of that. I think they were interested in seeing Oop's, which are a bit more interesting when a pro is making them because, as above, they are held to a higher standard. 
It is enjoyable in the sense that, it makes the "experts" seem more human, I think.

Humans make mistakes, every one of them. 

Or, perhaps I read far too far into this topic. :lol:


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## Back2Horseback (Mar 21, 2012)

So let's see some cool/interesting jumping pics, guys! We can move the thread back to it's original point and see some great/interesting AND POSSIBLY unorthodox riding styles that still allow horse/rider team to go clear!! :0)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corazon Lock (Dec 26, 2011)

No one's equitation is perfect. 

That being said, it is interesting to look at professional riders, or any riders, and find flaws in their riding, as well as the good things. By seeing what does and doesn't work for them, you can get a feel for what you should do in the saddle. 

I disagree that improper is still effective. It's one thing to have small flaws, but jumping ahead or pinching with your knees is detrimental to performance AND safety. Your riding may be affecting your horse's balance and might make it more likely for you to have a spill. 

We should all aim to better perfect our equitation, because I think that about 90% of a performance is the rider, not the horse. 

PS - I don't think this was a bashing thread at all. Get off your soapboxes, people.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I'll post photos people have taken of me as examples.

I can sometimes have "not so pretty" equitation over bigger jumps.










But I rarely have really ugly equitation.......well....except maybe this one!!

Chicken wings, anyone! LOL!


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## Cinder (Feb 20, 2011)

> No one's equitation is perfect.
> 
> That being said, it is interesting to look at professional riders, or any riders, and find flaws in their riding, as well as the good things. By seeing what does and doesn't work for them, you can get a feel for what you should do in the saddle.
> 
> ...


One hundred percent what she said. 

I get really sick of people flipping out when someone points out "flaws" in a rider's equitation. 

No one is perfect. I don't care if you jump one foot or five feet, are competing at first or third level dressage, etc. 

I think it could beneficial for all of us if we could objectively look at people's equitation and how it might help or hinder them. 

Just because a top rider is doing something doesn't mean it's good. 

I believe that every rider has something to improve on and something to learn. 

Here's someone with an interesting jumping style.


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## sjames86 (Sep 7, 2011)

took this at a local show.

I know the horse and rider and this is their usual jumping style!


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I don't care what you LOOK like as long as you're riding effectively, staying out of the horse's way, and most importantly staying ON. You don't have to be pretty to be effective, as long as you ARE effective! I'm sure as heck not always pretty, but I can stick on through a lot, my horse goes well, and I'm in no danger of a life-threatening fall.

That being said I was shocked to see a few riders at London 2012 whose jumping form was nothing short of dreadful. One in particular I can think of would throw his reins away, YANK, throw them away, and YANK again over every single fence. I may only jump 3'6" tops, but I think anybody can see that sometimes just because a rider can stay on and their horse will put up with it, doesn't make them a good rider. Poor horse and its poor mouth... says a lot for its temperament and passion that it didn't ditch the rider!

I'm not even close to Olympic level, but it's not hard to see that there are those who truly belong at that level and then there are those who are only there on their horse's merits, and their guts and ability to defy gravity.

edit; sjames, my horse would ditch that rider!! Jeez, ever heard of a release? Not to mention correct two-point!


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## ElaineLighten (Jan 1, 2012)

Allison Finch said:


> I'll post photos people have taken of me as examples.
> 
> I can sometimes have "not so pretty" equitation over bigger jumps.
> 
> ...


I don't see anything wrong with the first picture xD
Except for your second pics chicken wings, your jumping position is incredible  I love it


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## ElaineLighten (Jan 1, 2012)

Cinder said:


> One hundred percent what she said.
> 
> I get really sick of people flipping out when someone points out "flaws" in a rider's equitation.
> 
> ...


Oh my god at that first jump I thought she was going to fall off!! Then I realised...oh..that's how she jumps... 
I can't work out how she's not falling off :lol:


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## ElaineLighten (Jan 1, 2012)

sjames86 said:


> took this at a local show.
> 
> I know the horse and rider and this is their usual jumping style!


Ouch poor horse... 
Does she get left behind like that? Or does she do a jumping position at take off and just sit back in the saddle really quickly?


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## sjames86 (Sep 7, 2011)

ElaineLighten said:


> Ouch poor horse...
> Does she get left behind like that? Or does she do a jumping position at take off and just sit back in the saddle really quickly?


The horse does a sort of deer leap over the fences so he throws her back in the saddle as his head shoots up in the air.


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## Back2Horseback (Mar 21, 2012)

Cinder said:


> Here's someone with an interesting jumping style.
> 
> Annette Lewis & Tutein win the Hickstead Derby Trial - YouTube


Oh my goodness! What, exactly, are the physics of what's going on there? It LOOKS to me almost as if the rider is kind of "also jumping the jump" along with the horse...Like, she is allowing gravity to lift herself out of the saddle COMPLETELY, with at least 4-5 inches of air between any part of her body, including her legs, and ANY sort of contact with the saddle in any place...

Additionally, her legs fly first up and then out, behind her, in a manner which I can't quite discern the connection vs. motion ratio...I'll have to watch it a few more times to be more certain. 

Finally, it appears that, either purposefully, or as a result of having no leg/body contact with the horse whatsoever behind the region of the horse's withers during the peak of the jump, she has nearly her whole upper body positioned either atop (with air in between) or actually laying ON the horse's neck (I think due to the fact that her body has no other place to go)...

She obviously manages this well, as she clearly won the competition, but everything about her jumping style (*which* *she is entitled to, don't get me wrong, I'm NOT bashing her*) screams to me that at any moment she realistically could clear the jump and simply just keep on moving forward; landing on the ground on her face . It sooo looks like that is about to happen each time, and I can't quite tell if it is simply the horse's neck, or something else, that is keeping that tragedy from happening, as it appears there is literally NO point of contact for her to be balancing upon.:shock:

VERY interesting to say the least. Excellent video choice, Cinder! Thanks for posting that...

I like that she doesn't seem the LEAST bit concerned about her "unorthodox" style, and if you watch it all the way through, two young women/girls come up to her just after her ride wanting her autograph, thus I assume she's a well known rider! 
**(Apologies for my ignorance in not being familiar with her; I don't follow horse celebrities unless I've happened to see them in something that caught my attention or I've learned something from them--such as Buck Branneman, Stacy Westfall, etc...)


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Cinder said:


> One hundred percent what she said.
> 
> I get really sick of people flipping out when someone points out "flaws" in a rider's equitation.
> 
> ...


Good lord that look awkard!! I thought she was going to end up in front of the horse on a few jumps. I'm sure I would have! LOL


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Y'all just wish I was famous. Then you'd see some real doozies!

I've had more than one friend say that when I die my guardian angel is going to slap me. : )


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## Underfire05 (Jan 17, 2008)

I went to the American Invitational this year here in FL and took some shots. Actually ended up selling to a few of the jumpers which was VERY cool! But anyways, since the topic of "interesting" jumping positions came up I thought I'd share these  The first one just looks comical to me, but the second set is just from a glitch take off...I was very surprised they made it over that second oxer!!











this guy...whoah! hang on!


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Allison Finch said:


> I'll post photos people have taken of me as examples.
> 
> I can sometimes have "not so pretty" equitation over bigger jumps.
> 
> ...


When I grow up and get to go over big girl jumps I want to jump as good as Allison does on her bad day!
(For serious, if that's you on a bad day?!)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

I went to a computer specifically to post this video. Enjoy!


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## Cinder (Feb 20, 2011)

DancingArabian, I'm honestly flabbergasted by that video! That person obviously clears the jumps (at least from what I watched), but I can't say I know how.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

WTH???? Haha!


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

...that poor horse's back. That horse must be a saint to not toss that rider into the next time zone for slamming down on his back after these towering fences.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

DancingArabian said:


> I went to a computer specifically to post this video. Enjoy!
> 
> andarilho, critérios 2009 - YouTube


 
The rider is a pro polo player on a bet. Can't remember his name, it's been a few years.


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## Legend (Nov 15, 2011)

DancingArabian said:


> I went to a computer specifically to post this video. Enjoy!
> 
> andarilho, critérios 2009 - YouTube


Jesus... I have never in my life seen jumping like that. Im _*not*_ bashing him, but... their is no way thats a proper way of jumping... It doesnt look safe, nor comfortable for the horse... But anyway, thanks for posting the video! Amazing!


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

What a horse though, huh? Only refused a jump when the rider was on his neck and pushed him down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I am old enough to remember Annette Lewis, I saw her jump a few times when I was a kid. This is her most extreme photo. 

Annette Lewis on Tutein | Show Jumping Nostalgia

But you know during the early 80s, she was the most extreme but quite a few top level riders jumped in less than perfect equitation. It was far more common to see it back then, than it is now.


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## Back2Horseback (Mar 21, 2012)

The way the man in the video jumps looks very similar to the initial Annette Lewis clip we watched on the thread (IMO)...Lots of legs flying up & behind, lots of time with no person to horse contact behind the wither and the whole rider on the neck...they really seem awfully similar to me. I'm curious as to what leads to this "style".

Obviously they get by darn well, but I DO feel sad for the SLAMMING back down on these horse's backs...cannot be therapeutic...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I believe I read somewhere else that Tutien was extremely sensitive sided and very hot, and that the only way Annette could ride him was to take her leg completely off, particulary over the fence, and that her riding style was much more conventional on other horses. 

As for the other video, my recollection is the same about the video with the saint of a grey horse - a polo player doing it on a bet. So, very experienced horseman and rider but with no experience jumping or of the body mechanics, trying to get around a big course. That's pretty much exactly what it looks like to me. 

Though I always strived for the best equitation I could manage, I was definitely in the effective, not pretty camp. But to me, in order to BE effective, your position needs to be correct and you need to be in balance. 

I'm going to go dig up some photos of Rodney Jenkins, who was one of my idols back in the day. His style was often a bit unconventional, but his horses were also ridden *forward *with minimal interference and big, generous releases. Not always an equitation ideal, but horses always went well for him.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

This a great one, Rodney on Idle Dice -
An equitation critic would say Rodney has pivoted on this knee, which has sent him too far forward, that his crotch is in front of the pommel at a critical phase of the jump. He has also over released and is riding with open fingers on his left hand, perhaps using a slight right leading rein in the air. 

Yet, somehow, this photo doesn't look unbalanced to me - I don't think Rodney is weighting the horse's front end. And look at the horse's expression and attitude - appears to be a good working partnership. 

Now, I'm laughing as I type this, because I can't believe I have the nerve to say this about RODNEY AND IDLE DICE, who won everything there was to win, including the American Gold Cup three years in a row back in the 80s.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Sorry for the triple post, but this topic is really interesting to me. 

I promise I won't post any more photos, as I couldn't figure out how to resize the last one and it's humongous, sorry. (If a traveling mod wants to resize it for me, that's would be awesome.) 

But I've spent the last hour looking at photos of riders online, particularly ones I've admired. And it's instructive.

In all the photos of the late, great Charlie Weaver, one of the best people on a hunter maybe ever, and a great stylist, his lower leg is farther back than is considered ideal. A lot farther back, actually. Now, he's also in the middle of his horse, in perfect balance, with a flat relaxed back and a text book perfect release. 

And John French, who is one of the most successful hunter riders today, whose horses ALWAYS jump extragantly round with lovely expression, usually looks like he's laying on the horse's neck, and is sometimes pictured with his chin by the side of the horse's neck. So what gives? 

Did Charlie always take his leg off in the air to encourage the horse to drape over the fence or dwell in the air a little more? Was that part of his technique? Or was it a mannerism that he was successful in spite of, not because of?

Same question about John French - is his laying on the neck a mannerism that he succeeds in spite of, or is it part of his riding style the function of which is not understood? Is he just incredibly lucky that he gets to ride all those fabulous jumping horses or does something in his riding help produce the fabulous jump? I suspect the latter. Is his unconventional position part of what produces that jump? 

If you believe form should follow function, then your horse's performance is the ultimate judge of equitation. These individuals all pass with flying colors, the are masters at getting the best performance out their equine partners. 

Final question - who are your favorites in the hunter, jumper and event worlds in terms of position and style and why? Either current or past are okay. 

Mine, besides the folks already mentioned are Katie Prudent, Beezie Madden, Tori Colvin, Joe Fargis, Conrad Holmfeld, Frank Chapot, Greg Best, Bruce Davidson (Buck's Dad and an amazing rider), Tad Coffin and Mike Plumb. (Oh, and Allison's no slouch herself - I love the photo of her sitting tight and chilly over a big jumper fence on the gray horse!)


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Am I a thread killer, or what?  :sad:


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## Back2Horseback (Mar 21, 2012)

Actually, I REALLY ENJOYED the pic you posted as well as your thorough assessments of the riding!

I thought what you had to say was FANTASTIC and super insightful. Especially your discussion of Tutien and the issue of the rider having to vary her style to suit the horse's highly sensitive flanks/hotness! I found that to be an amazing piece of insight. 

I don't think you "killed" the thread...I just imagine others may be having a hard time following your commentary and enthusiasm with anything MORE useful or interesting! Keep any photos/more of your info FLOWING...I loved it! :0)

Of course I'd still love to see more from anyone else as well! It's a great thread idea!!


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## Cinder (Feb 20, 2011)

> Sorry for the triple post, but this topic is really interesting to me.
> 
> I promise I won't post any more photos, as I couldn't figure out how to resize the last one and it's humongous, sorry. (If a traveling mod wants to resize it for me, that's would be awesome.)
> 
> ...


I think people succeed IN SPITE OF the mistakes they make. No one is perfect. Just because they're at a high level doesn't mean the mistakes they make are helping them in some way. I believe that they're probably compensating in some way, whether they know it or not- like you said, although Weaver's leg is back, he still has a great release, flat back, etc. It's also possible that their horse is compensating for them in some way. 

I have no favorite riders as I don't really follow that kind of stuff.


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## StarfireSparrow (Jan 19, 2009)

I have known more than one rider who held their self back from achieving what they were truly capable of in the saddle because they were overly worried about form and appearance over the function and the feel in the moment. *raises hand sheepishly* I know that in most cases what is correct is correct because it is supposed to be the optimal balance for a specific task, but horses are individuals. I think these riders became great by not giving a hoot if they looked a little silly (or a lot silly) over a jump if it worked well for them and their mount.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

First of all, B2H, that was way, way too flattering!!! Don't encourage me, bad things (long articles about riding theory kind of bad things) happen when you flatter me!

I think Sparrow and Cinder make some interesting points, and I have to confess to a pronounced bias. Equitation form should follow function, but our ideal for form and function is often misapplied - I was one of those unfortunate souls without the conformation or raw talent for eq, and I tried sooooo hard to make myself look like the photos in the George Morris book, all I succeeded in doing was making myself stiff and tense. My riding didn't progress for a long time until I forgot all about eq and focused on what worked and developing some feel. THEN I could return to the principles of equitation more successfully.

However, as an instructor and local judge, I saw countless examples of rider position hindering the horse's front end, creating an inverted jumper and mover or blocking the movement they were trying to produce all while looking "correct" to a casual observer.

So, back to analyzing gifted riders - Rodney never had a formal riding lesson and learned what worked for him fox hunting behind his father; Charlie Weaver had more education, but a similar though more polished style. Both rode their horses forward into a very light and generous hand - I understand why that works.

But how does standing up in your irons and laying on the neck "work?" Everything I know tells me these rider's horses should not be able to rotate through the shoulder fully or hang a knee, yet they don't. And I promise you, under lesser riders, they absolutely do. So why do John French's horses jump the way they do? Is it the way /the balance in which he gets them to the fences? Could he get them there that way and then NOT jump up and lay on the neck? What would happen then?


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## diontasha (May 15, 2011)

OMG, Unbelievable, I hope the polo player has all the kids he wants already! lol


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## Back2Horseback (Mar 21, 2012)

maura said:


> First of all, B2H, that was way, way too flattering!!! Don't encourage me, bad things (long articles about riding theory kind of bad things) happen when you flatter me!
> 
> I think Sparrow and Cinder make some interesting points, and I have to confess to a pronounced bias. Equitation form should follow function, but our ideal for form and function is often misapplied - I was one of those unfortunate souls without the conformation or raw talent for eq, and I tried sooooo hard to make myself look like the photos in the George Morris book, all I succeeded in doing was making myself stiff and tense. My riding didn't progress for a long time until I forgot all about eq and focused on what worked and developing some feel. THEN I could return to the principles of equitation more successfully.
> 
> ...


First off, let me say further that I believe EVERYONE contributing to this thread showed me something interesting or pointed out something I hadn't before considered; I LOVE THAT...it's awesome to open one's eyes to new things so readily and honestly, due to some quite insightful comments, so easily!! It was getting something awesome for free. :0)

Second, Maura, "getting long articles about riding theory" is PRECISELY THE #1 THING I come to HF with the hopes of obtaining! And, if I can obtain such from highly talented, "been there/done that" riders such as you, Allison, and MANY, MANY OTHERS HERE on HF, then "flatter away" I shall!! :0)

I find that I can CERTAINLY RELATE to that/those early point/s in one's riding experience when I would (& occasionally still do!) ride as if emulating riders I've watched, hoping that will "magically" allow me to have the same results as they...when all it does for me in actuality it exactly as you described; I tighten up, I "over focus" & I stop FEELING the horse beneath me! By the same token, when I simply engage my senses and my body in rhythm with my equine teammate, & try to match my energy and movement with theirs, I consistently have a ride wherein I'll forget I'm WORKING, & suddenly I'm just ONE with the animal and man, when THAT OCCURS, ALL IS RIGHT WITH THE WORLD!

Anyhow, now that I am at the point in my training where my instructor feels I've re-developed enough core strength, enough quietness & softness (in ALL instances) and enough leg/seat control to cue the horse whom I always ride in lessons--Victory--consistently; we are finally able to move away to some degree from basic dressage foundational work and closer back into the jumping and trail work which I
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## Back2Horseback (Mar 21, 2012)

maura said:


> First of all, B2H, that was way, way too flattering!!! Don't encourage me, bad things (long articles about riding theory kind of bad things) happen when you flatter me!
> 
> I think Sparrow and Cinder make some interesting points, and I have to confess to a pronounced bias. Equitation form should follow function, but our ideal for form and function is often misapplied - I was one of those unfortunate souls without the conformation or raw talent for eq, and I tried sooooo hard to make myself look like the photos in the George Morris book, all I succeeded in doing was making myself stiff and tense. My riding didn't progress for a long time until I forgot all about eq and focused on what worked and developing some feel. THEN I could return to the principles of equitation more successfully.
> 
> ...


First off, let me say further that I believe EVERYONE contributing to this thread showed me something interesting or pointed out something I hadn't before considered; I LOVE THAT...it's awesome to open one's eyes to new things so readily and honestly, due to some quite insightful comments, so easily!! It was getting something awesome for free. :0)

Second, Maura, "getting long articles about riding theory" is PRECISELY THE #1 THING I come to HF with the hopes of obtaining! And, if I can obtain such from highly talented, "been there/done that" riders such as you, Allison, and MANY, MANY OTHERS HERE on HF, then "flatter away" I shall!! :0)

I find that I can CERTAINLY RELATE to that/those early point/s in one's riding experience when I would (& occasionally still do!) ride as if emulating riders I've watched, hoping that will "magically" allow me to have the same results as they...when all it does for me in actuality it exactly as you described; I tighten up, I "over focus" & I stop FEELING the horse beneath me! By the same token, when I simply engage my senses and my body in rhythm with my equine teammate, & try to match my energy and movement with theirs, I consistently have a ride wherein I'll forget I'm WORKING, & suddenly I'm just ONE with the animal and man, when THAT OCCURS, ALL IS RIGHT WITH THE WORLD!

Anyhow, now that I am at the point in my training where my instructor feels I've re-developed enough core strength, enough quietness & softness (in ALL instances) and enough leg/seat control to cue the horse whom I always ride in lessons--Victory--consistently; we are finally able to move away to some degree from basic dressage foundational work and closer back into the jumping and trail work which I so badly desire to restart
..this means I plan to spend a WHOLE LOT OF TIME learning jumping theory (something I've never been knowledgeable on whatsoever despite reading so many books)...I've had trouble isolating that type of info from quality sources, so I'll be looking toward you all for LOTS OF information and guidance. What an INCREDIBLE RESOURCE HF IS! I can't imagine another place where one could find such diversity in skill and training levels/techniques and have the freedom to pick the brains of all of these various people!

Thanks guys! I can't wait to "jump" in (pardon my pun, ha!)...

Best to all!! B2H. :0)
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## Cinder (Feb 20, 2011)

> First of all, B2H, that was way, way too flattering!!! Don't encourage me, bad things (long articles about riding theory kind of bad things) happen when you flatter me!
> 
> I think Sparrow and Cinder make some interesting points, and I have to confess to a pronounced bias. Equitation form should follow function, but our ideal for form and function is often misapplied - I was one of those unfortunate souls without the conformation or raw talent for eq, and I tried sooooo hard to make myself look like the photos in the George Morris book, all I succeeded in doing was making myself stiff and tense. My riding didn't progress for a long time until I forgot all about eq and focused on what worked and developing some feel. THEN I could return to the principles of equitation more successfully.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with you on the stiff and tense thing, I have a habit of doing that as well! 

As for that last paragraph, I honestly don't have an answer for you. I wish I knew more so that I could provide at least a guess...hmm, I'll think about it and in the mean time does anyone else have any ideas? 

From what you've said and what I've learned from my time in the saddle, I guess that in a perfect world you'd find a happy median. Not being so concentrated on equitation that you end up tense and limiting/forgetting about the horse, but not so "quirky" for lack of a better word that you totally forget about good equitation. It's important to have good equitation and good feel, I believe. Perhaps sometimes people sacrifice a bit of one for a bit of the other, and it ends up working well for some people and not so well for others? 



> I find that I can CERTAINLY RELATE to that/those early point/s in one's riding experience when I would (& occasionally still do!) ride as if emulating riders I've watched, hoping that will "magically" allow me to have the same results as they...when all it does for me in actuality it exactly as you described; I tighten up, I "over focus" & I stop FEELING the horse beneath me! By the same token, when I simply engage my senses and my body in rhythm with my equine teammate, & try to match my energy and movement with theirs, I consistently have a ride wherein I'll forget I'm WORKING, & suddenly I'm just ONE with the animal and man, when THAT OCCURS, ALL IS RIGHT WITH THE WORLD!
> 
> Anyhow, now that I am at the point in my training where my instructor feels I've re-developed enough core strength, enough quietness & softness (in ALL instances) and enough leg/seat control to cue the horse whom I always ride in lessons--Victory--consistently; we are finally able to move away to some degree from basic dressage foundational work and closer back into the jumping and trail work which I so badly desire to restart
> ..this means I plan to spend a WHOLE LOT OF TIME learning jumping theory (something I've never been knowledgeable on whatsoever despite reading so many books)...I've had trouble isolating that type of info from quality sources, so I'll be looking toward you all for LOTS OF information and guidance. What an INCREDIBLE RESOURCE HF IS! I can't imagine another place where one could find such diversity in skill and training levels/techniques and have the freedom to pick the brains of all of these various people!
> ...


I can't wait to hear all about your re-entry into jumping, B2HB!


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## Back2Horseback (Mar 21, 2012)

Aww..thank you, Cinder.

I agree, Maura's last paragraph DOES pose a very interesting question...any takers to provide a hypothesis?
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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Sorry to bump back up an old thread, but I found a partial answer to the questions raised in this thread, courtesy of Denny Emerson's FB page -

"Years ago, there was a FABULOUS rider with a "messy", unorthodox jumping style. Every kid in America tried to copy him. George Morris told me, "The kids are copying the WRONG THING. They are copying his bad form. They SHOULD copy his exquisite timing, his forward riding, but they can`t see that, so they copy what they can see, which is wrong."


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

"You have to realize THIS: There can be a huge difference between being a SUCCESSFUL rider and a TECHNICALLY CORRECT rider.

Just because someone is successful doesn`t mean you should copy that style"

More from Denny Emerson's FB.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

my theory is that the less we move and the more we stay out of their way, the better our horses jump. i have found this because i, fortunately, have a horse that tolerates my mistakes while pointing them all out to me =P 

what i have found is that it doesnt matter if i lay on her neck or sit like a sack of potatoes on her back. what matters is that im not moving my body around and fiddling with my hands. if i set her up for success and then stay still, not stiff, but moving with her, she will do her job perfectly. even if your weight is all on their neck, they can still jump well because they understand how to get themselves balanced because your weight is steady in one part of their body. its when you are switching positions that your weight moves and they have to do a lot of work to adjust to you and stay balanced. 

just my 2c


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Ahhh relief!! Laugh. 
I found this thread so frustrating previously because I just could not for the life of me think of the name of the person I wanted to mention. 

Richard Spooner is the rider with a pretty extreme style of riding, at first glance. However, I believe him to be a fantastic rider, and he adapts his riding to what works for the particular horse. 

So at first glance, you see photos like these and scratch your head a little: 



















But then I watch this, and realize that he truly is exceptional.


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## bubbleslove (Mar 9, 2010)

Woah. The announcer made the best analogy to that - it's like driving on ice. Don't oversteer and let it play itself out. But wow!
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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

AlexS, just goes to show that they know how to ride.. they just... do too much with their bodies sometimes and it comes out goofy. 

That was an awesome video of how he stayed on.. he looked amazing and his horse did too!


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## Back2Horseback (Mar 21, 2012)

Awesome video, Alex; & such great commentary Maura and others...so true and insightful.
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