# posting western



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Keep in mind that I've never ridden English or had 'proper' instruction on how to post, but posting in a western saddle shouldn't be much different than in an English saddle. You may have to adjust your technique a little bit to accomodate the difference in posture, but it shouldn't be hard to do.

Most western riders I know are ranchers/cowboys and all of them post when trotting long distances unless they've got a super smooth horse to ride. I don't have to post on my gray, but at a working trot with any of my others, posting is much easier. I can sit it, but it's a real workout.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I agree with smrobs; posting is posting. it's done pretty much the same. if your stirrups are too long, you'll end up kind of "slinging" yourself up by your knees and thights. just keep in mind that when you are rising, your pubic bone comes up and FORWARD, too, and your upper body should stay as close to vertical as possible, so your don't collpase forward.

I post pretty much ALL the time, as this is more comfy and encourages more energetic movement.


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## nrchacowhorse (Jun 13, 2014)

Posting is just the same. I do it because I'm large in the chest and it hurts less....you won't look dumb or anything. It takes a minute to get the new rhythum from english to western but you'll get it.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

The first book I ever read on riding was "Training For Western Horse and Rider" by J'Wayne "Mac" McArthur first published in 1976. McArthur wrote that he never understood why posting wasn't allowed in Western competition because cowboys did it all the time when covering lots of ground looking for cattle. McArthur described posting as a rocking on the crotch. While some may not consider this posting, it is better than the deep knee bends often seen being performed by many riders. Rising a quarter of an inch out of the saddle is as effective as rising several inches. In fact, a rider can take the weight off his seat bones without ever showing light between the seat of his pants and the saddle.

The stirrup placement you describe is not confined to Western saddles, some English saddles also place the stirrups too far forward. Any well constructed saddle should allow the rider to sit with head over shoulders over hips over heels rather than in a chair seat. Many saddles -- like many chairs, couches, and automobile seats -- encourage people to sit with poor posture. My Western saddle, as well as my English saddles, allow me to sit with my weight centered over my feet. 

I tell my students to imagine what would happen if their horse magically disappeared. I tell them they would want to land on their feet, not their seat or their face. It may be necessary for you to find a new Western saddle in order to do this. If your saddle is large enough and not sloped too much, you may be able to shift your position to ride this way. Whatever saddle you ride in, you should not be leaning against the cantle. 

If the rider's feet are in front of his center of gravity, I know of no way to keep from plopping back into the saddle when trying to post other than relying on the reins for support. This, of course, would create tremendous pressure on the horse's head if using a leverage bit.

Stirrup length is also important. Unless jumping, I recommend the stirrup straps be adjusted so the stirrups hang near the rider's ankles when the rider's feet are not in the stirrups. This should give about one or two inches of clearance if the rider were to stand in the stirrups without raising his heels.

Your horse's rough trot may be a result of her conformation. However, the roughness of a trot can usually be reduced through proper exercises with the horse and through relaxation techniques.


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

My thing is that I really just need to try it and see what happens. I like to be prepared before I try something which often leads me to over think it. Cows horses around here are the cream of the crop. Many of the cowboys I know are to old to post (or too stuck in their ways is more like it). Plus lots of barrel racers. You very rarely see someone western post around here. Every horse I've been on was smooth enough to sit so never gave a second thought to posting unless I was riding in my bffs English saddle or bareback. Never had the need in a western saddle until now.
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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I post in my western saddle all the time. It's a little bit different only because your stirrups are longer and your seat is supposed to be deeper. Go more "Dressage" style when you post in a western saddle versus Hunter/jumper.


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

Thank you everyone!! Once again Im putting to much thought into it  its gonna be the death of me lol I'm relieved to hear what I was thinking all along. While stirrup placement does matter it shouldn't effect my posting unless I'm in an obvious chair position which would be a problem without posting as well. Also glad to hear nothing is really different and that posting is just posting. Thanks guys! If the rain let's up I'm going to go out and try it. I'll let you know the outcome 
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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

TX her rough trot is indeed caused by her conformation and by being out of work and tense. Even in shape and relaxed it will always be rough but not as bad as right now. Her lope is really... Well kind of scary. I've never loped her under saddle but watching her in the field you can tell she has no idea how to balance or carry herself plus her added conformation issues leave quite a bit to be desired. She's just a plod along trail horse so its not a big deal. I just want to get her into a working trot to take the monogamy out of constantly working at a walk and because she needs the exercise as well. We both do actually lol a year off has left us both with a bit to be desired 
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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

My last comment kind of sounds like I said the balance wasn't a big deal but it is. What I meant wasn't a big deal was that her lope isn't a big deal since its not a gait we use. I most definitely want her balanced in every gait though.
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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"Any well constructed saddle should allow the rider to sit with head over shoulders over hips over heels rather than in a chair seat...If the rider's feet are in front of his center of gravity, I know of no way to keep from plopping back into the saddle when trying to post other than relying on the reins for support."

Gotta disagree with this. Saddles are made for specific purposes, and there is nothing magical about having one's heels under one's hips. Nor is there anything wrong with having legs forward - it is very traditional western riding:










That said, there is nothing wrong with posting on a diagonal. For many types of riding, it is best to have your stirrups under your center of gravity. However, it is entirely possible to post with a diagonal leg. You won't come all the way out of the saddle like a Jack-in-the-Box, but that is fine too. Just use your legs like slanted shock absorbers and go light in the saddle for a beat. You will never put your center of gravity over your feet, but so what? You don't do that anyways when riding with the feet forward. Think of it as a cross between sitting the trot and posting. The effect on you & your horse will be the same.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

I post in every saddle I have ever ridden in, english, western, australian, military etc. and don't have any problem with it. 
If I have a young horse and riding western I will often post in the begining so I don't upset the horse with bouncing on it's back if it is irreg or rough, after some riding and schooling as the horse gets more comfortable, confident and relaxed I will start sitting the trot and go on from there, switching to the post if the horse starts to stiffen up and let it relax again. You don't have to rise very much in the saddle.
I would say just try to relax and try the post to see what happens, much better to post on a rough horse than get bounced all over.
I remember reading in a book once that the cowboy measured his distances as " a 45 min fast trot" I'll bet he posted that fast trot..


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

I know posting isn't about the distance between your butt and the saddle. Its just shifting your weight/center of gravity to match the horse's movement. Thanks for the info BSMS. I enjoy your responses because I know you often learned the hard way and don't speak out unless you have the experience to back it  I respect that... I figured it was possible from a chair position just wondered if it was harder. I grew up with no lessons and the ones I rarely got from experienced people were classical English or very old fashioned western which contradict each other. I use whatever works best for the horse I'm on. Both have great aspects depending on the situation. I was worried my saddle might not allow the stirrups to get under me but glad to know its ok if they don't too. I just really need to try it and go from there. I'm sure it'll be perfectly fine. I can post so it shouldn't be an issue. I was reading the "sit the trot" thread and that's what made me think to ask about this. I've tried every tip listed in that thread with no luck. My trainer said if I can sit her trot she'll make me brownies lol so I have something to work for  I'm gonna recruit a friend to lunge her while I figure her trot out to lessen my worries about keeping her going. She drops to a walk as soon as I'm off balance. I don't blame her at all either. My trainer has watched us multiple times to try and find the problem. Her conclusion is we both need practice and exercise. Her trot is one of the worst my trainer has seen or ridden but my seat is still to be desired for as well. Its not impossible to sit just difficult. My trainer never mentioned posting but from experience it could be what it takes to get the trot down. Makes sense cowboys would post on long distances. Maybe my area is strange lol  but we do have some nice movers here too. So my plan is to just try it and stop thinking about it already lol
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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> "Any well constructed saddle should allow the rider to sit with head over shoulders over hips over heels rather than in a chair seat...If the rider's feet are in front of his center of gravity, I know of no way to keep from plopping back into the saddle when trying to post other than relying on the reins for support."
> 
> Gotta disagree with this. Saddles are made for specific purposes, and there is nothing magical about having one's heels under one's hips. Nor is there anything wrong with having legs forward - it is very traditional western riding:
> 
> ...


Thank you, bsms. I stand corrected. I was going by the classical definition of balance. A rider can, of course, have his body balanced over his feet without being head over shoulders over hips over heels. But if the rider's butt is behind his feet -- whether due to his stirrups being further forward or because he is jumping, cantering, galloping, etc. -- his head and shoulders should be inclined forward. 

You still want your center of gravity over your feet to perform a good rising trot. As I mentioned, the rise does not even require showing light between one's pants and the saddle. And it shouldn't be accomplished by "standing" in the stirrups. The rising trot should be initiated by the horse propelling the rider upward. The only effort on the rider's part might be a drawing forward of the hips -- the traditional "hips toward hands" or the rocking on the crotch described by McArthur -- to remain over the horse's center of gravity.

When simply sitting, as in the photo you provided, this is of less consequence although harder on the horse. The position illustrated would be like a person you are carrying on your back sitting with his butt hanging. You could carry him, but it would be much easier if he was better ballanced. This is mitigated somewhat by the fact that a horse has four legs to support itself rather than two, but it is nonetheless true.

The strongest part of a horse's back and the part which can most easily support the rider's weight is located just behind the withers. Sitting more towards the rear -- although theoretically shifting the combined center of gravity rearward -- puts a greater strain on the horse and may limit the movement of its hips and back. In more classical riding, the rider sits behind the withers but influences the horse to shift its center of gravity rearward by tilting its pelvis along with a relative lifting of the withers.

The idea of sitting further back on a horse is not limited to some Western riding. This has also been done by some English riders. Watch the movies "National Velvet" and "International Velvet" to see a difference in jumping styles.


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

The whole head over shoulders over hip over heel makes sense to me but the chair position is more comfortable. Could the difference originate from English being more short distance riding where western is more associated with longer distances? I'm just speculating here off my very limited knowledge so excuse me if I'm off base with this.
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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

You guys have both given me a lot to think about and I appreciate that  I love hearing multiple points of view
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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I think a big part of the difference between styles is likely due to rider comfort. As you said, chair seat is often more comfortable for the rider and many western saddles are built to force a person into a chair seat whether they want to be or not. Until I got my ranch saddle, I rode in roping saddles my entire life. I once tried to practice keeping my feet under me instead of out in front...it was downright painful because I was fighting the saddle every moment.

Now, my ranch saddle has the fenders hung closer to the middle of the saddle and it's much easier for me to stay balanced. Also, the fenders on it have more mobility to put my feet where I want them, whether that's out in front of me









or closer to underneath me. After many years of riding in a massive chair seat, I still can't get my feet all lined up with my hips and shoulders but I am much better balanced and more secure like this.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

countrylove said:


> The whole head over shoulders over hip over heel makes sense to me but the chair position is more comfortable. Could the difference originate from English being more short distance riding where western is more associated with longer distances? I'm just speculating here off my very limited knowledge so excuse me if I'm off base with this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think the idea of head over shoulders over hips over heels can be traced back to Xenophon, a Greek general who wrote a wrote a book on horsemanship about five centuries before the birth of Christ. He said to sit on a horse as though standing, feet apart and knees slightly bent, and a horse just happens to be standing between them -- this, as opposed to sitting in a chair. The Greeks at this time did not use stirrups, so their legs would hang beneath them, taking into consideration the shape of the horse.

The cowboy in the photograph provided by bsms is actually sitting very well with an erect spine. Many, if not most, riders sitting in a chair seat tend to tilt their pelvis and round their back. This requires more muscular effort. Sitting in a balanced position allows the bones of the spine to support the upper body and the muscles need not work as hard.

When sitting in a chair, we generally lean against the back of the chair and let it do much of the work of supporting our bodies, but it is good to get up once in a while to stretch. Some chairs have been designed to have the worker sit in more of a kneeling position with no back support; this style seat required the worker to support his upper body in balance and was said to be better for the worker's back. It was not widely accepted, however. Nor was the idea I heard of Ernest Hemingway writing while standing up at a counter.

I actually had less back problems when working at a job where I stood most of the day than when I worked sitting at a desk. Riding has done wonders for helping my back.


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

TX that's really fascinating  I try to make it a point to sit straight and tall but it definitely takes effort lol
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## BarrelracingArabian (Mar 31, 2010)

ive always posted in a western saddle never noticed the difference when i attempted english awhile back.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

TXhorseman said:


> ...You still want your center of gravity over your feet to perform a good rising trot. As I mentioned, the rise does not even require showing light between one's pants and the saddle. And it shouldn't be accomplished by "standing" in the stirrups. The rising trot should be initiated by the horse propelling the rider upward. The only effort on the rider's part might be a drawing forward of the hips...
> 
> ...Sitting more towards the rear -- although theoretically shifting the combined center of gravity rearward -- puts a greater strain on the horse and may limit the movement of its hips and back. In more classical riding, the rider sits behind the withers but influences the horse to shift its center of gravity rearward by tilting its pelvis along with a relative lifting of the withers.
> 
> The idea of sitting further back on a horse is not limited to some Western riding...


I have a couple of problems with this.

First, when you use your diagonal legs like a shock absorber on a bouncy horse, it works. I've done it many times, and my horses seem content. The weight is then primarily supported by the thighs rather than the rump since the rump parts company with the saddle, even if only a fraction of an inch.

If riding a collected horse on level terrain, and the horse is loose and relaxed, then heels under your center of gravity is better. But when my mare gets a choppy trot, it either means she is excited to go faster, or is worried about something ahead. If the latter, then feet forward will a) make my legs like a fence on either side of her, discouraging a turn, b) make it easier to get my heels down, and c) keep my weight back in case of a sudden, unannounced stop. In an ideal world, horses wouldn't do an "OMG Crouch", but my world is seldom ideal. It also works on a saddle with forward hung stirrups.

There is no need to draw the hips forward. In either a forward seat or a dressage seat, your weight should ALREADY be over your stirrups, so you are just unfolding and then re-folding. I agree with Harry Chamberlin:










If you need to bring your hips forward, something is normally wrong. In a forward seat, getting your CG over your heels is done by leaning the torso forward. In a dressage seat, the saddle should put your heels under your hips.

In a western saddle, the stirrups may well be forward. Western riding involves more fast stops than dressage normally does, or jumping should. In a fast stop, having your CG behind the stirrups is an advantage.

In posting in a saddle like that, one way is like how my youngest did it 4 years ago: throw her hips forward, pull her legs back, balance with the reins and then plop down into the saddle like a ton of bricks landing on the horse's back:










Why Trooper adored her even then, I do not know. I am glad to say she is a much better rider now. He still adores her.

Second, putting your feet forward 6-8 inches does NOT mean you sit further aft. It does the opposite - it pulls your CG forward. Your rump should be in the lowest part of the saddle. That is what the saddle was designed for, and with a western saddle and the western saddle tree that extends well beyond the cantle, it will balance your weight.

You do NOT move back. Instead, you move your legs forward and take your center of gravity forward with it. As a result, your legs pretty much go around the horse's natural center of gravity, and that is a good thing if your horse spins.

And since it must shift your weight forward, not aft, it lightens your rump in the saddle and puts weight into your thighs. It puts less weight on the horse's loin, not more. It is not possible to move body parts forward and shift your center of gravity rearward by doing so.

Take another look at this Arizona rider from around 1910. Look at how close his rump is to the horse's withers:










Since his lower leg is at or in front of the horse's CG, it means he is better balanced with the horse than a dressage rider, who wants the horse to shift ITS balance back to match the rider's.

The myth of the 'chair seat' is that it assumes the front feet form a pivot point. That only happens if you brace, which I agree is bad. If you do not, it merely shifts your weight forward. Combined with being light in the stirrups, it creates a position similar to a bareback rider's (Internet picture):










You do mention an important truth, however: "_Many, if not most, riders sitting in a chair seat tend to tilt their pelvis and round their back. This requires more muscular effort. Sitting in a balanced position allows the bones of the spine to support the upper body and the muscles need not work as hard._"

I think that is why a chair seat is frowned on. If you lean back, with shoulders behind your hips, way back 'on your pockets' as I was taught to do (but refused), and also stick your feet forward...good luck! My horse has jumped over too many invisible (to me) small fences - she'd dump me regularly if I rode like that. I'd actually like to see the cowboy in the picture look more like the lady and be a bit more upright.

I ideally like my heels under my belt buckle. It makes it easy to shift them slightly forward or back, depending on what I am trying to do. I also tend to lean a bit forward, since I started by learning a forward seat and like to ride two-point, even in a western saddle, to feel my balance.

I'm not an instructor or anything admirable as a rider, so I'm tossing these ideas out for discussion. I've tried riding like this, and I'm describing what happens when I do. I believe in 'riding the saddle': I want my rump in the lowest part of the saddle, and I want my stirrup straps or fenders to stay vertical. I'll accept whatever position that puts me in, because then gravity is helping me stay there.

I have noticed that it is very hard to find pictures of men riding prior to 1960, and maybe even 1970, with their heels under their hips. This is a drawing from _École de Cavalerie_ by Francois Robichon de la Guérinière *1729 *(one of my theories is that men and women may sit differently due to differences in tightness of the hips):
* 









*Apart from dress, he looks a lot like the cowboy...


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

You bring up some very good discussion points, bsms. Let me address some of them.

“First, when you use your diagonal legs like a shock absorber on a bouncy horse, it works. I've done it many times, and my horses seem content. The weight is then primarily supported by the thighs rather than the rump since the rump parts company with the saddle, even if only a fraction of an inch.”

I’m not sure what you mean by “diagonal legs”. If you mean legs with a slight bend that opens and closes as the rider uses them as shock absorbers, I agree. I sometimes use this method myself. I support my weight in the stirrups with the balls of my feet, however, rather than my thighs. While my heels are still lower than the balls of my feet, the weight is still supported by the balls of the feet on the stirrups. I disagree with Harry Chamberlin’s comment about the weight being supported entirely in the heels since the heels are not resting on anything. The heels and ankle joints can act as springs, but the weight itself is supported by the balls of the feet in the stirrups.

“There is no need to draw the hips forward. In either a forward seat or a dressage seat, your weight should ALREADY be over your stirrups, so you are just unfolding and then re-folding.”

This may just be a difference in terminology. In the rising trot, as the angle between the upper and lower legs opens, the angle between the torso and the upper legs open as well. Since the horse is going forward, the rider’s hips must move forward as well. As skilled rider can use the forward motion of his hips to influence his horse to move out more in the rising trot.

“In a fast stop, having your CG behind the stirrups is an advantage.”

This is true in an uncontrolled stop when the horse’s weight falls on its front legs. It can be accomplished several ways such as moving the feet forward or leaning the upper body backward. In a controlled stop such as a sliding stop in reining, most good riders remain almost vertical. This is possible because the horse inclines backward as it tilts its pelvis and draws its legs beneath itself.

The photograph of the Arizona rider from around 1910 is not typical of what I see in much Western riding today. He is sitting more upright and his legs are straighter.

The picture from “Ecole de Cavalerie” is not the seat I prescribe. The riders legs are too straight. His whole body is inclined to the rear and his feet are in front of his body. 

With my legs beneath – rather than in front – of me, I can and do still use them as “fences” to keep a horse going straight. I can also use them to influence a turn by moving my outside leg back slightly – maybe an inch – and rotating my whole upper body in the direction of the turn. I have also sat numerous jumps sideways on startled horses with my legs beneath me and a low center of gravity.

Regarding the rider’s center of gravity, we again may be dealing with a difference in terminology. I think you are talking about the rider’s center of gravity in relation with the horse’s center of gravity. If we consider only the rider’s center of gravity, having the legs forward, indeed puts the rider’s center of gravity to the rear. Look at the picture of the Arizona rider. If he was standing on the ground in that position rather than sitting on his horse, he would fall over backwards. Therefore, his center of gravity is to the rear. Now consider the horse’s center of gravity without the rider. The horse’s center of gravity, considering the weight of the horse’s head and neck and its positioning, is probably just behind the rider’s lower legs. Therefore, the rider is somewhat behind the horse’s center of gravity. The rider would need to lean somewhat forward to change this.

I’m glad you refused to follow the advice to sit “on your pockets”. I liken this to leaning on the back to legs of a chair. It provides a very unstable seat as you point out.

If you lean forward, you could easily have your belt buckle over your heels and be in a balanced position over your feet. If one part of your body is in front of your feet, another part must be behind in order to keep your center of gravity over your feet.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_If we consider only the rider’s center of gravity, having the legs forward, indeed puts the rider’s center of gravity to the rear. Look at the picture of the Arizona rider. If he was standing on the ground in that position rather than sitting on his horse, he would fall over backwards. Therefore, his center of gravity is to the rear._"

The center of gravity is where an equal amount of weight is fore & aft. It is the mid point of the weight distribution. If one looks at the Arizona rider, his center of gravity has moved FORWARD when he moves his legs forward. It MUST go forward. You cannot move weight forward, leave all else equal, and have the center of gravity move back.

Yes, if his horse was transported to the Enterprise, his center of gravity would not be above his feet and he would fall, but so what? That only matters if one is trying to stand on one's feet. When you sit in a saddle and move weight forward, it does not shift weight to the rear. It does not increase pressure on the horse's loins or press harder to the rear of his back. Moving your feet forward is the same as moving your shoulders forward - it places more weight forward.

"_Now consider the horse’s center of gravity without the rider. The horse’s center of gravity, considering the weight of the horse’s head and neck and its positioning, is probably just behind the rider’s lower legs. Therefore, the rider is somewhat behind the horse’s center of gravity._"

Except for a genuine forward seat, or a highly collected horse, the rider's weight will always be behind the horse's center of gravity. However, the closer the rider is to the horse's center of gravity, the easier it is for the horse to move with its natural balance. Dressage rejects that motion and substitutes a centered balance, wanting equal weight on each of the horse's legs. The illustration VS Littauer was told was a table - except horses are not tables, and tables do not run.

There is nothing wrong with teaching a horse a collected gait, and it certainly helps to teach momentary collection for things like stopping or sharp turns. But for general riding and balance, letting the horse maintain its natural balance helps the horse - just as having a backpack designed to maintain a human's natural balance would help the human carry the backpack.

The closer you are to the horse's center of gravity if it spins, the more you are inclined to spin WITH the horse, sort of like being in the center of a spinning merry-go-round. The farther your center of gravity is from the horse's center of gravity when it spins, the harder it is to spin with the horse.

Also, as best I can figure it out, the motion of the horse's back pivots around the center of gravity. At a canter, the horse's back barely moves at the withers but moves more as you move aft. Sliding your legs forward does not move your rump back. It merely shifts your weight forward, where the horse's back doesn't need to move as much. That decreases the horse's workload.

If one kept one's feet at one spot and moved one's rump back further on the horse, THAT would move your CG aft and make it harder for the horse to move. Or, if you keep your rump in place (as it must be in most saddles) and move your lower leg back, your center of gravity moves back and the horse must do more work.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

We are straying for the original topic which was posting Western, but I find this discussion stimulating. I don't have time to address the latest post by bsms right now, but I would like to clarify some points brought up by the general discussion.

First "head over shoulders over hips over heels" is a general term to give the idea of a seat balanced over the rider's feet. This -- as well as the phrase "legs at the girth" -- should be taken with some latitude. Because of variations in rider physiques, there will be some differences in actual alignment. Portions of some riders bodies are more prominent than those of other riders. 

Also, riding is dynamic. A rider's seat cannot remain static if the rider is to move with the motions of his horse. The basic seat is just a starting point.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

OK, here are some more things to think about:

"The center of gravity is where an equal amount of weight is fore & aft. It is the mid point of the weight distribution. If one looks at the Arizona rider, his center of gravity has moved FORWARD when he moves his legs forward. It MUST go forward. You cannot move weight forward, leave all else equal, and have the center of gravity move back."

If we assume that the rider’s weight is equally supported throughout his body, moving the feet forward does, in fact, move the rider’s center of gravity forward.

"Yes, if his horse was transported to the Enterprise, his center of gravity would not be above his feet and he would fall, but so what? That only matters if one is trying to stand on one's feet. When you sit in a saddle and move weight forward, it does not shift weight to the rear. It does not increase pressure on the horse's loins or press harder to the rear of his back. Moving your feet forward is the same as moving your shoulders forward - it places more weight forward."

This statement seems to assume that the seat is supporting all of the rider’s weight. I prefer a rider to distribute his weight throughout his contact with the horse and saddle. For example, some of the rider’s weight will be supported by the seat, some by the legs wrapping around the horse’s body, and some by the stirrups. This would be the result of gravity if the rider is not lifting weight out of his feet to place it in the saddle, gripping the horse’s sides with his legs, or tightening the muscles of his crotch which would prevent some of his weight from drifting downward. A common reaction of impact on the rider’s crotch is to tighten the muscles of the crotch which raises the rider’s center of gravity. The center of gravity is not only a matter of forward and aft, but of side to side, and up and down. If the rider who has distributed his weight throughout his contact with the horse and saddle moves his feet forward, some of the weight initially supported by the feet will be shifted aft and supported by the saddle.

"Except for a genuine forward seat, or a highly collected horse, the rider's weight will always be behind the horse's center of gravity. However, the closer the rider is to the horse's center of gravity, the easier it is for the horse to move with its natural balance. Dressage rejects that motion and substitutes a centered balance, wanting equal weight on each of the horse's legs. The illustration VS Littauer was told was a table - except horses are not tables, and tables do not run."

I believe a rider should initially strive to center his weight over his horse’s center of gravity. However, a horse naturally carries most of his weight with his front feet. When we place a rider on his back slightly behind his withers, an even greater percentage of this combined weight is placed on the horse’s front feet. Therefore, I believe a more advanced rider should strive to help the horse develop the strength and flexibility of his hindquarters to support more of this combined weight. I am not talking of the extreme collection of the “high school” which is very stressful and should only be maintained for short periods of time.

There are a number of ways to help a horse shift some of this weight rearward. One is to simply raise the head. This, however, should be combined with a lowering of the nose – but never behind the vertical – and a rounding, rather than a hollowing, of the horse’s back. Strengthening the muscles above the horse’s neck and the muscles of the thoracic sling will help raise the withers and aid in supporting the tendons running along the horse’s top line which act in supporting the rider’s weight. Along with this, we can influence a horse to tilt his pelvis and bring his hind legs further under his body.

A common side effect of all this is a smoother ride.


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

Don't worry about the topic change. I'm immensely enjoying the discussion. I don't have time to really post right now but keep up the topic. Its fascinating to me  and in the end it does relate. Gotta have a good seat no matter what 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

This is also off topic, but I am finding this interesting so will ask my question. In the past I have gone out riding with a group of friends, all riding western except me, and I have noticed that almost every time at the end of the ride my horse was sweating less than the other horses. This has happened more than a couple of times and I always wondered why. It isn't all because my horse was in good shape as some of the other horses were as well. Just last week I went out with 2 other riders, 2 english and one western and I'm sure the western horse was in better condition than the 2 english ones and it was also sweating more. My question to Tx horseman and BSMS is, does this have anything to do with rider position as per centre of gravity? I know that the weight of tack may affect this some but probably not that much.
I took some WP lessons once and they wanted me to put my legs so far back that I felt really out of balance, like if the horse stopped I would just tip right over onto the horse's neck.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I know this question wasn't directed at me, but I'll answer anyway.

I believe that the sweating thing may be no more than a coincidence. Horses, like people, each sweat differently. I have some that will sweat while standing around in the pasture during the summer. I have others that require a significant amount of work in the same temp/humidity to work up a sweat. 

Also, sweating is influenced by the horse's diet, so unless the horses are being fed the same feed and ridden by the same rider in the same manner on a day with the same temperature and humidity, I would be relatively unwilling to chalk it up to _just_ being caused by different tack and rider posture.

I'm not saying it's not possible, but I believe it's unlikely. I'd be more inclined to believe that it would be due more to the simple matter of the surface area being covered. Everyone knows that a western saddle and pad covers more of the body than an english saddle and pad. Often, a person will be hotter and, therefore, sweat more when wearing a long sleeved shirt as opposed to a t-shirt or tank top.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

As smrobs points out, the sweating could involve many factors. One factor may involve the saddles and saddle pads or blankets. My Western saddle is larger than my English saddle as is the pad. My Western padding is also thicker. While the Western pad may absorb more moisture, I don't think it wicks the moisture through as well. In addition, the gullet of my English saddle probably allows a little air to pass through over the spine. While my Western saddle has a decent gullet, the rear portion of the skirt lies flat on the pad.

The only way I can think of weight distribution (center of gravity) affecting sweat would be the location of the sweat. A horse primarily using its front end would probably be more sweaty on the front. A horse using the rear end more would probably display more sweat in that location.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I am catching up on this thread. noticed these things from bsms, who I'd choose as my lawyer if I ever needed one.:
"You do NOT move back. Instead, you move your legs forward and take your center of gravity forward with it. As a result, your legs pretty much go around the horse's natural center of gravity, and that is a good thing if your horse spins.

And since it must shift your weight forward, not aft, it lightens your rump in the saddle and puts weight into your thighs. It puts less weight on the horse's loin, not more. It is not possible to move body parts forward and shift your center of gravity rearward by doing so."


putting your whole leg forward might shift your CG forward , technically, but it does not make your seat lighter. LESS weigh is carried on the thigh, more goes down into the seatbones themselves, and if the rider is pushing the stirrup forward, there will be a backward thrust (equal and opposite to the forward thrust of the rider's legs) into the cantle. when the rider has their whole leg as nearly under them as possible, their downward weight is distributed onto the the thigh, seat bone and stirrup, all in one downward line, and theoretically, no backward thrust, so no need for the hrose to work harder to counteract that vector with more forward thrust. in fact, it presents the least amount of interference with the horse's energy and movement.













the above image actually DOES show a man with hip and heel alingned under the shoulder (almost). the horse is shown doing a piaffe. it is trotting in one place and should have the hocks compressed so that the rear end lowers while the front end lifts. this makes the body lose it's horizontal orientation and become angled upward. the rider , instead of leaning forward to stay vertical to the ground (like a tree on a hill), actually appears to lean back becuase he keeps his fairly perpendicular position on the horse's back. this puts his weight more over the hindquarters, lightening the front quarters.


and yes, I agree that most men do tend to ride in a different position than women do, and yes, I don't think it's a crime to have your leg forward of your hip, as long as you aren't pushing the stirrup out ahead of you.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"._..putting your whole leg forward might shift your CG forward , technically, but it does not make your seat lighter. LESS weigh is carried on the thigh, more goes down into the seatbones themselves, and if the rider is pushing the stirrup forward, there will be a backward thrust (equal and opposite to the forward thrust of the rider's legs) into the cantle_."

My thighs tell me the opposite. If my heels are under my hip, all my weight goes straight down into my hip. If I move my legs forward, I feel more weight in the thigh and less in my seat.

However, that doesn't mean you are wrong. I'm slowly figuring out that riding is more complex than a lot of books make it sound...

About 3 months ago, I found myself bracing and bouncing during a canter. I lowered my stirrups one hole, put my feet in the 'home' position to keep my feet from sliding out during a canter, and then tried again. Without the bracing and with my feet forward of my belt buckle, I suddenly found it easy to feel and move with the canter. Part of it was my stirrups were too long to brace against, but part of it was that position allowed MY thighs and legs to wrap about MY horse while in MY saddle in a relaxed way.

Over the last few months, something else has been happening. I had a lower back injury in Jan 2009 that left me with a lot of back pain, particularly when riding. I went 5 years without jogging (after 35 years of jogging 4-5 times/week) because of it. For whatever, reason, this spring that pain and stiffness has started to go away. And something I noticed a few weeks ago was that my heels have been creeping back on their own. So one possibility is that as my lower back becomes more limber, how my legs drape around the horse may be changing.

Rather than nauseate y'all with endless details of how my 56 year old body is changing, my point is that much of how I felt most comfortable and in control while riding may have been driven by the back injury a few months after I started riding. That is why it is tough to be dogmatic about riding and position, unless one is competing and a judge is grading you: what YOUR body on YOUR horse in YOUR saddle may need might differ from someone else.

For posting, to get back to the point of the thread, I generally agree that your center of gravity is best over your stirrups, regardless of how you achieve that. When it is, your body folds and unfolds and there is nothing to make your lower leg flop, make you slam into the saddle, etc.

But in a given saddle on a given horse, with a given persons legs, hips, flexibility, etc, it might be best to accept what is, let your feet be forward, and use the legs as shock absorbers until the horse learns to collect more, you get a different saddle, you get more saddle time, etc. Trooper is a better behaved horse than Mia, so what I feel good trying on him may not be best on a horse who still sometimes jumps or does the OMG Crouch. Given Mia's history, I still prefer to keep my center of gravity behind my feet when she is nervous. It might make me post funny, but it helps when she slams on the brakes without telling me she is going to do so!

PS: "Shoulder-in: _École de Cavalerie: contenant la connaissance, l'instruction et la conservaiton DU CHEVAL_ by Francois Robichon de la Guérinière (Écuyer du Roi) Early edition *1729":










*And Dupaty de Clam's _La Science et l'art de l'equitation, demontres d'apres la nature_ (1776):

*








*


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

All the discussion on saddle design, riding positioning, and the effects of balance has gotten me thinking further into the subject than I have ever gone before. The more I think about it, the more complex the issue appears. I wonder if there are any saddle makers or designers out there or if any of you know any who could help shed light on this subject. I would like to know if any of them even consider the things mentioned below.

It seems that most of our weight would be carried by the bars of the saddle except for the portion directly exerted on the horse’s body through the fenders. This includes weight in the stirrups which are attached to the bars by the stirrup straps.

Based on this assumption, the bars of the saddle must act much like the seat of a teeter-totter or seesaw that used to be a common sight on school playgrounds and city parks and taught children naturally the physics of balance. The effects would not be quite the same, however, since a teeter-totter had a centrally positioned fulcrum whereas the bars of the saddle are supported along their length by the horse’s back. Still, we have the idea of a plank distributing the rider’s weight.

If all of the rider’s weight sits above or hangs from (as in the case of stirrups) the center of the plank, any slight tilting of the upper body above this point would shift the pressure towards the end of the plank to which the body leans. Weight hanging from this point (the stirrups) would probably have a lesser effect if moved forward or aft because the weight is lower than the positioning point. Any physics majors out there who can verify if this thinking is true? 

If the weight of the rider was positioned further forward than the center of the plank, he would need to tilt his upper body back slightly to distribute his weight evenly over the horizontal plank – assuming the plank is horizontal and not tilted. If the rider was positioned to the rear of the center of the plank, the opposite would be true.

Now, suppose the rider sits above the middle of this plank but the stirrups are supported at a position further to the front. The majority of the rider’s weight would still be in the middle but some would have moved forward. Therefore, to keep the weight distributed evenly over the horizontal plank the rider would be required to tilt his upper body slightly to the rear.

If the rider’s upper body rested at a point to the rear of the center of the plank and his feet hung from the center or further forward on the plank, the rider would be required to lean slightly forward to distribute the weight evenly over the length of the plank.

If the bars of the saddle were not horizontal, or if the horse’s conformation or positioning caused the bars to move from the horizontal position, the dynamics of weight distribution would change. This thinking illustrates how saddle design can influence riding. But this only considers a stationary horse. 

Francois Baucher and General Morris conducted some tests on horse positioning and weight distribution using a matching pair of scales at the Paris customs house. Among other things, they found a 1% to 2% variance in the weight distribution of the horse caused simply by visceral movements such as those resulting from breathing. Again, this was on stationary horses.

When the horse is in motion, everything changes. Is there any wonder why “feel” is so important in riding?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

When I took up riding 6 years ago, I used an English jump saddle and most of my "instruction" came from the last US Cavalry manual on riding, which was largely written by Harry Chamberlin in the 40s based on what he learned at the French and Italian Cavalry schools in the 1920s. It was a forward seat, but differed from how jumpers typically ride now. It emphasized weight in the stirrups, and keeping your weight centered over the stirrups. Gen Patton gave a good example of this style in a low jump:










I used it because my horses seemed most willing to go when ridden this way. I eventually realized the the up/down motion of the horse's back at a canter pivots around the horse's center of gravity, which is roughly below the base of the withers and right around where the stirrup bars are on a jump saddle. The rider's weight creates pressure all through the saddle tree, but the saddle is free to pivot with the back because the saddle-rider interface is the 1" stirrup leather at the stirrup bar.

When I switched to Australian saddles for more security on the trail with a spooky horse, I continued to ride this style. My goal (seat, not reins), never attained, was this campdrafting style:










When I switched last fall to a western saddle, I kept that approach for a few months. However, it finally dawned on me that western fenders were wider than English stirrup straps, most were not located as far forward, and the weight distribution of a western saddle was very different than an English/Australian one.

The big clue came when my mare was fresh and wanted to trot fast on a trail. Before, I slowed her down by settling into the saddle and maybe leaning back a little. The pressure on her back got her to slow down on her own. So I tried that with the big western saddle, and she didn't slow at all. I pushed on the horn with one hand until I felt like I was leaning backwards, and she still didn't slow. We did a fast trot for a mile, then entered my little arena at home and I 'kissed' her to a canter. She then cheerfully cantered a few laps. Putting my weight deliberately to the rear of the Martin saddle didn't bother her at all!

Not all western saddle trees are equal. I've got an Abetta whose tree is no larger than an English saddle's tree. The Martin & Circle Y both have a much larger tree. 

I'm now wondering if, at levels of riding that don't involve competition, the main thing a HORSE cares about is not "weight on spine", but "pressure on my back muscles". At the non-jumping, non-racing level of riding, could it be that horses are responding to discomfort to their back muscles rather than simply weight resistance to the motion of their spine?

The Martin tree is a pretty imperfect fit for Mia, yet how bad can it be when she moves so well in it? After an incident in March, I switched back to the Australian saddle, but I couldn't get around the fact that she moves more eagerly and turns better in the Martin. How could that be if the fit was too far off?

Also, western saddles distribute weight over the loin, which is a no-no for English saddles. The Martin also has a wider, more gently sloped channel down the middle than my English & Australian ones, so could it be her response was based on discomfort to the muscles near the spine?

If so, then the rules of riding used for English saddles may be null & void for a good western saddle. Ridden with the Martin, Mia doesn't seem to care if I lean forward or back, or if my feet are forward or under my hip. She does care a little - my CG over her CG still works well if things are getting dicey for her, and leaning forward still seems to mean 'go faster' to her - but with the Martin, she seems content to let me do whatever works well for MY balance because it doesn't affect her the way it did before.

With 6 years of intermittent riding, 90% on Mia & 9% on Trooper and 1% on every other horse I've ever ridden, I'm obviously no expert. But I sometimes think that is an advantage, because I haven't learned truisms that might not be true based on goals & tack that differ from mine.

A floppy rider or one who snatches on the reins still drives me nuts. But now as I watch videos of jumpers, dressage riders, cutters and barrel racers, I find myself wonder WHY they do what they do, rather than being tempted to condemn any one style. There are a lot of 'rules of riding' that just don't match what I've seen: curb bits are harsh & snaffles gentle, curb bits are only for finished horses, no weight on the loin, ear-shoulder-hip-heel in a straight line matters to the horse, if your horse sees something scary you need to push her past it (do that with Mia, and she'll throw it in reverse and then be certain for 6 months that it was VERY SCARY)...there just don't seem to be as many rules to riding as the books tell me there are.


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

So I got out there and just tried it  I keep my stirrups too low (didn't even realize it) but as a teenager I posted bareback so it came back to me pretty easily. I discovered my stirrups do come back without resistance and I was able to get my feet under me pretty well. I'm going to shorten my stirrups and practice some more today. Yesterday I ended up ditching the stirrups so I could find my CG and get the feeling of her trot. I've been lunging her and her trot is getting a bit better so that was exciting to discover as well. And there was absolutely no difference in posting English vs western, at least for me anyways. I over thought it once again lol 

I'm really enjoying the direction this thread has gone. Im learning soooo much from it. I need a minute to process my thoughts because there are many good points in each post. I've never had a "professional" lesson in my life. I learn by watching, asking questions, and trying. Ive found many things contradictory in riding so I ride MY way which is just other ways modified to fit my needs. Like BSMS we use whatever works at any given time. I'm going to reread this thread and collect my thoughts but Ill be back  great discussion everyone!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

_"ow, suppose the rider sits above the middle of this plank but the stirrups are supported at a position further to the front. The majority of the rider’s weight would still be in the middle but some would have moved forward. Therefore, to keep the weight distributed evenly over the horizontal plank the rider would be required to tilt his upper body slightly to the rear.

*If the rider’s upper body rested at a point to the rear of the center of the plank and his feet hung from the center or further forward on the plank, the rider would be required to lean slightly forward to distribute the weight evenly over the length of the plank.*

If the bars of the saddle were not horizontal, or if the horse’s conformation or positioning caused the bars to move from the horizontal position, the dynamics of weight distribution would change. This thinking illustrates how saddle design can influence riding. But this only considers a stationary horse. "
_

the above, bolded part, describes what happens when a saddle has too much of an "uphill" orientation. Such as, when it is too narrow in the front, thus the pommel is raised. or, the horse is rather sway backed, and the saddle is riding on the wither like a surfer going up a wave. the rider must lean forward to stay in balance on even a stationary horse, and if the upper body must lean forward, the legs must go forward to counter that.

the converse happens when in a downhill orientation; the upper body must lean back, and the lower legs are pulled back to counter balance that. OR, jammed hard into the stirrup and a constant, active resistance maintained by the rider pushing against the stirrup .

these imbalances can be corrected by adjustments to the saddle fit so that the saddle sits correctly horizontal.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

Every ride on a different horse presents new issues to deal with. Every ride on the same horse can also present new issues. Learning from various personal experiences as well as learning from other people's experiences can provide us with a broader knowledge of things to try. 

I try, as a general rule, not to interfere with my horse's movements. I figure that my horse knows how to move himself well and that he can move better if he does not have to adjust to my balance or movements. Only when I want to change a horse's way of moving do I try to get him to adjust to me. I have found that, once a horse is accustomed to our two bodies moving together, the horse generally adjusts to conform to small changes in my movement.

The first example of this I generally try to teach a student involves stopping. If the rider is following the movements of his horse's back at a walk with his own seat bones, I tell the rider to stop the movements of his seat bones. The result is that the horse will often stop. Sometimes, we will only see a slight pause if the horse is accustomed to being pulled to a stop or if he has been going on "autopilot" for too long. In dealing with the issue of autopilot, I suggest a slight wake up call of a squeeze and release of the hands. I tell the rider to think of squeezing only one drop of water out of a wet sponge. With horses who are accustomed to being pulled to a stop, there is often a little longer learning curve. But when they learn what they are being asked to do, the horse enjoys this much better than the pulling.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

“I'm now wondering if, at levels of riding that don't involve competition, the main thing a HORSE cares about is not "weight on spine", but "pressure on my back muscles". At the non-jumping, non-racing level of riding, could it be that horses are responding to discomfort to their back muscles rather than simply weight resistance to the motion of their spine?”

A horse can respond to many different stimuli such as pain, pressure, balance, sound, and visual perception. It is only through experience that one learns how to “feel” what his horse is telling him. This “feel” can vary from one horse to another. Horses as well as people can use the same “word” to mean something different; they can also use a different “word” to mean the same thing as another horse. The more languages we learn and the more people we hear speaking those languages, the better chance we have of understanding what a particular person is trying to convey to us. When we are dealing with a horse, we must learn his language and/or teach him a different language. In either case, we must establish a common language. 

I have taken lessons, attended clinics, read scores of books by dozens of authors, and put in thousands of hours on well over a hundred horses of various breeds and no breed at all. My first real horse experience was a pack trip in the Absaroka Wilderness Area of the Beartooth Mountains of Wyoming. I have since had many different experiences including helping move 1,200 head of cattle over the Continental Divide and riding Lusitano stallions in Portugal. The main thing I have learned is that I have so much more to learn.

In his book “Dancing With Horses”, Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling includes the tale of a noble caballero who had devoted his life to horses. People who saw him ride were enthralled by the performance and moved by his riding ability. On his death bed at the age of 96, a tear came to his eye. “What’s wrong, uncle,” asked his nephew. “You’ve lived a long blessed life, and this time comes for every man.” “That’s true,” replied the man, “but my death comes at a most inopportune time. It was only last week that I learned what it truly means to ride.”


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## bitinsane (Jun 5, 2013)

subbing so I can read all of it when I have time. Lots of good information!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Riding horses reminds me of what a professional guitarist told me about playing the guitar:

"Playing the guitar is easy enough that an idiot can learn to play something in an hour. It is hard enough that no man lives long enough to master it."​


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

I like that quotation, bsms, and so applicable to horseback riding.


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