# How do I teach my horse to tolt?



## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

I'm wondering how to teach my paint mare to tolt. I've taught her just about everything else, now I want to teach her to tolt and I'm not sure how to go about it. I know the gait comes almost natural to most icelandics, and I've heard it can be taught to individuals in any breed. If any paint can learn it, this mare can.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Well, I'd be interested in this. I wondered the same thing -- could I teach my standardbred to tolt? No idea how to even begin - maybe by teaching her to pick up her feet in the correct order first on the ground, but then how to transfer that to under saddle?

Anyone?


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Ponies100 said:


> I'm wondering how to teach my paint mare to tolt. I've taught her just about everything else, now I want to teach her to tolt and I'm not sure how to go about it. I know the gait comes almost natural to most icelandics, and I've heard it can be taught to individuals in any breed. If any paint can learn it, this mare can.


I think you have been misinformed that you can teach any breed to tolt.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

I know of people that have taught both paints and standardbreds to tolt. Also many other breeds.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

I know every horse in the world cannot be taught to tolt, but if individuals of any breed can I'd like to give it a try because my mare is very talented and has learned most gaits already.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Ponies100 said:


> I know of people that have taught both paints and standardbreds to tolt. Also many other breeds.


So ask those people and let me know too!


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

I believe that it is a natural gait to a certain type of horse. Icelandics are born with that gait. I don't think that a paint could learn it. It's just like teaching a Shetland pony to rack, it's not a gait recognized to the breed. Why do you want to teach your horse this? I never knew it could be taught! To me it come naturally and is a breed characteristic... And horse has to be built to these *special* gaits, no? I don't believe a paint is built to tolt. Correct me if I'm wrong baited horse people


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

PintoTess said:


> I believe that it is a natural gait to a certain type of horse. Icelandics are born with that gait. I don't think that a paint could learn it. It's just like teaching a Shetland pony to rack, it's not a gait recognized to the breed. Why do you want to teach your horse this? I never knew it could be taught! To me it come naturally and is a breed characteristic... And horse has to be built to these *special* gaits, no? I don't believe a paint is built to tolt. Correct me if I'm wrong baited horse people


 I've heard of it done before so I wanted to try because I like teaching my horses all sorts of strange things because it's fun and I'm looking for something new and challenging. I've taught other gaits before, but never the tolt. I know it wouldn't come easily to a paint, but as someone said to me regarding teaching horses different gaits, it's like learning to dance. Some people have it, others dont' but anyone who actually tries can do it to come degree.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

NorthernMama said:


> So ask those people and let me know too!


 I would but I don't know them, just know of them from atricles I read online trying to figure out how to teach it. All I know is it's been done. I found articles on people that did it but they don't say anything about how they went about it.


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

Why not try bowing? Or spanish walk? My horse knows both and are also good stretching exercises if taught right


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

The ability to gait is genetic. A horse either gaits or it doesn't. You cannot train a horse to tolt if it doesn't have the genetics necessary to do so any more than you can train it to change it's color or sex. And asking a horse to do something that it is physically unable to do is unfair and will only confuse and frustrate her. 

Just my .02 cents worth...


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

She already does both of those haha We're both up for a challenge, that's why I thought I'd like to try teaching her the tolt. I know a few Icelandic trainers from Iceland and the tolt has to be "shown" to some icelandics, as they don't quite get it but it comes almost naturally, so I might get in touch with them. If an Icelandic doesn't tolt at all they don't waste time on it because they don't want it passed down to the next generation, but I might see if they think I'm nutts about teaching it to my mare and see how they "show" Icelandics. I know I'll have to do a lot more than just showing my mare how it's done because it's not bred into her at all. I've heard of some placing ground poles in a specific way to get them to pick up their feet in the right order. I posted on here wondering if anyone knew how to place them or had any other ways of teaching it.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

Horse Poor said:


> The ability to gait is genetic. A horse either gaits or it doesn't. You cannot train a horse to tolt if it doesn't have the genetics necessary to do so any more than you can train it to change it's color or sex. And asking a horse to do something that it is physically unable to do is unfair and will only confuse and frustrate her.
> 
> Just my .02 cents worth...


I already taught her to pace, animated walk, and fox trot. All of which I was told I couldn't do. I graduated from farrier school so I had to learn all about gaits and gaited breeds. Just because it is not bred into a horse doesn't mean it's not physically able to do it, it is just a lot harder. My mare didn't get frustrated learning the other gaits. To me, getting a paint to tolt is like the ultimate challenge for me I haven't tried at all yet. I'm someone who teaches my horses everything I can think of, and if my horses don't like to learn, I don't keep them.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Ponies100 said:


> I've heard of it done before so I wanted to try because I like teaching my horses all sorts of strange things because it's fun and I'm looking for something new and challenging. I've taught other gaits before, but never the tolt. I know it wouldn't come easily to a paint, but as someone said to me regarding teaching horses different gaits, it's like learning to dance. Some people have it, others dont' but anyone who actually tries can do it to come degree.


Just curious of what "gaits" you have "taught" your horse?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

churumbeque - Op states which gaits right above your post... Although I highly doubt if they were taught that the horse is ever doing them correctly...


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

churumbeque said:


> Just curious of what "gaits" you have "taught" your horse?


 Pace, Animated walk and Fox trot


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## rosie1 (Feb 28, 2011)

Just curious, why do you want your horse to learn every gait there is. If it's because you enjoy a challenge and you have an intelligent and willing horse why not teach it a new discipline? I'm not sure what sort of riding you do but there is tons and tons of stuff you can do with a horse that is a whole lot more natural to him. Try jumping or look into learning dressage which has more to learn than all the gaits you could think of teaching your horse. I don't know if you show or not but regardless wouldn't teaching your horse a million different gaits just confuse them in the long run? I really don't know anything about gaited horses but I do know non-gaited and I doubt you could ever teach them to tolt, perhaps you could force them to move in a way that is similar but I highly doubt it would ever be anything like a true tolt. And anyways its totally unatural to them, why force your horse to move in a way it was never intended. If you want a gaited horse get a gaited horse, otherwise just enjoy the 4 beautiful gaits your horse already has. Not trying to be rude, just my opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Ponies100 said:


> Pace, Animated walk and Fox trot


What methods were used to accomplish this? Could you post videos or pictures of this? Are you sure your horse is a paint?


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

NdAppy said:


> churumbeque - Op states which gaits right above your post... Although I highly doubt if they were taught that the horse is ever doing them correctly...


 I had been quoting from the 1st page and hadn't gotten to the second page of posts yet. My bad.:lol:


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

:lol: i figured. It happens. :-D


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

I don't see that it would be impossible at all. Look at what dressage involves. How much of that is natural? Skipping? Ya, what horse _naturally_ skips?


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

northernmama said:


> i don't see that it would be impossible at all. Look at what dressage involves. How much of that is natural? Skipping? Ya, what horse _naturally_ skips?


 exactly!!!!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

NorthernMama said:


> I don't see that it would be impossible at all. Look at what dressage involves. How much of that is natural? Skipping? Ya, what horse _naturally_ skips?


 Horses don't 'skip' in dressage. I presume you are referring to single tempi changes. These are the result of years upon years of training, building up from absolute basics, building strength, balance and timing. Whole different can of worms to teaching a new gait to a horse that does not naturally have that gait.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

Kayty said:


> Horses don't 'skip' in dressage. I presume you are referring to single tempi changes. These are the result of years upon years of training, building up from absolute basics, building strength, balance and timing. Whole different can of worms to teaching a new gait to a horse that does not naturally have that gait.


If it takes so many years than it is obviously far from natural just like teaching a horse to gait, skipping or not.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Nope, not because it's far from natural - because we don't want to damage joints. Its easy to teach a horse to change, piaffe etc. if you want to push them into it. 
But because as dressage riders we want to build a strong, fit, balanced horse, we train over many years. I've seen horses do single tempi changes in the paddock. My yearling piaffes and passages around the paddock when I go out with the feed bucket, and puts in clean flying changes all over the place when he sees me coming to catch him when he runs to the gate.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Ponies100 said:


> If it takes so many years than it is obviously far from natural just like teaching a horse to gait, skipping or not.


They are still doing diagonal gaits regardless of the years of training.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

do you have pictures to post of your horse doing these gaits? Is your horse a registered paint? Could it possibly be a pinto instead?


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

churumbeque said:


> do you have pictures to post of your horse doing these gaits? Is your horse a registered paint? Could it possibly be a pinto instead?


She was born on my farm and yes, she is registered. She's a breeding stock paint though. I'll try and get some pictures on here soon.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

NorthernMama said:


> I don't see that it would be impossible at all. Look at what dressage involves. How much of that is natural? Skipping? Ya, what horse _naturally_ skips?


Standardbreds can be taught to rack, similar to the tolt. Here's a video 



 It's also for the people that say a horse can't be taught to gait.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

A standardbred is a gaited breed to start with and are bred for that in mind


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

churumbeque said:


> A standardbred is a gaited breed to start with and are bred for that in mind


 pacing, not racking. Some standardbreds are 3 gaited just like a paint.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

OK, regarding my wording of "skipping" -- sorry that I don't know dressage, but to my uneducated mind, it looks like skipping. Regardless, point made that it can be taught.

As for standardbred being a gaited breed -- yes, but not all standardbreds pace and do have to actually be taught to pace. Many standardbreds are never taught to pace at all. I have owned pacers and trotters, but I never once had my trotter break into a pace. 

A tolt is just a circular gait; I really don't see how this would be any more difficult to teach a horse than any dressage movement. And if it takes years then so be it. And really, any advanced training would require muscle toning and training. That's not exclusive to dressage by any stretch. Trying to teach a diagonal two-beat gait is to me, completely different as it involved pairing and completely different balance control. Yet this is done.

So, what if we just set this as a goal and try to think of how one would actually go about teaching it? If you (directed at those that actually are very skilled in training and/or dressage) were to break out of the mold and just _try_ what would you do? Where would you start? I personally haven't got a clue.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Dressage movements vs training a new gait is still like comparing apples and oranges. Dressage builds on existing paces, improving, refining and strengthening the natural paces. The movements built on this, keeping the regularity and purity of the existing paces while showing off the strength and balance of the horse.

Training a whole new gait... I would have no idea where to start. Dressage starts from breaking. Working on improving and strengthening what is already there. A new gait is not already there. Things like Spanish walk and Spanish trot, they are again, just extensions of a gait that is already there. Not a completely new gait.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

OK, someone that is *in the know* about racking -- can you please explain how the video posted is not racking? I definitely don't see a pace in that. I paused the video a few times and I see where one foot is on the ground, or diagonal feet are on the ground, I didn't see where two feet on one side were on the ground and the entire look of the gait just isn't at all what I see when I've watched standardbreds pace.

I don't actually know what rack is, but I do know what I pace is. Or at least, I figured I do... prove me wrong? Enlighten me?


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Katy, I understand how a Spanish walk is an extension / exaggeration of an existing gait. But if you could maybe explain the very basic beginning of how to control which foot is used when, that might help us understand. So the single tempi changes are what exactly then? We're still asking for a particular order that the feet are elevated and the horse's weight is shifted.

Here are my further thoughts on teaching this. I may even try it if I get ambitious. Sounds like a good winter project to start on ground work. Thoughts on this are welcome: 

I have taught my horse to "dance" -- she will shift her weight from one front leg to the other, raising the unweighted leg to almost chest height. It's cute, but not polished at all. I started this on the ground, then moved it to when I am in the saddle. It was a kind of long process, but I started by teaching her to raise a front leg on demand, with voice and touch control, then moved it to the saddle using reins and leg control. 

I think I should be able to teach her to raise her back legs the same way, starting on the ground, with voice and touch. Move to the saddle again and end up with independent controls for each leg. So if I add to my front end cues, some back end cues, I should be able to ask her to pick up any particular foot in any particular order while on the ground or under saddle.

Then my difficulty would be in teaching forward motion with that. I have always asked her to stand still, never walk. So, I'm thinking that again, if I start on the ground, use the same cues as always to pick up a foot and cue her forward at the same time, by one step at a time, I should be able to move her in a pattern.

But wow... that sounds way too confusing. I think I would need to develop the entire tolt pattern on the ground in order before progressing to saddle. But how, oh how would I give a command for that from the ground? Just voice? Maybe tolt1,2,3,4; tolt1,2,3,4 and cueing each foot and having a butt strap to encourage forward motion regardless of where I am standing around her??? Hmmmm... it might work.

If I can get just the order down pat, regardless of how polished and smooth it is, it will at least show whether or not it can be done. Interesting challenge. OK... now I just have to find the time... I will have to start slowly... be patient everyone and remind me to keep at it, or I will forget.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Sorry for all the multiple posts. I guess I ramble when I learn 

So I did a bit more research and yes, that video is a rack. And yes, I do understand my pace correctly. And, here's something interesting, the rack and the tolt are very close. So, if we can teach a standardbred to rack, we should be able to teach it to tolt. 

Ponies, if you have taught your horse to pace, just how did you do that? You should be able to apply the same theology to a tolt, no? Didn't you say you also taught a rack -- then it shouldn't be a stretch to a tolt. But I'm not clear on the difference yet. Still learning, but I promise: no more posts tonight.


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

Skipping in dressage!? Lol! Sorry that made me giggle  not rudely in any way to the poster!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

NorthernMama said:


> Katy, I understand how a Spanish walk is an extension / exaggeration of an existing gait. But if you could maybe explain the very basic beginning of how to control which foot is used when, that might help us understand. So the single tempi changes are what exactly then? We're still asking for a particular order that the feet are elevated and the horse's weight is shifted.


As dressage is NOT trick training, the rider must have an excellent sense of timing and feel, as well as the years of training to develop the horse's fitness, strength and balance. 
The tempi changes are canter strides. The horse changes lead every stride, but it is still canter, a true, 3 beat canter. They are taught beginning with single changes, by establishing a clear canter aid with the riders seat and leg, then setting the horse up with excellent balance, and applying the aid for say a left canter while on the right lead. 
All dressage movements are like this, we don't work on a single leg, but the body as a whole. It is not an order of when the feet are elevated as such, as again, we are not changing the pace. A canter pirouette, should still be a 3 beat, clean canter. A passage, should still be clear 2 beat, piaffe should be clear 2 beat. None of the dressage movements train a different order of 'how the feet are elevated'.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

Kayty said:


> As dressage is NOT trick training, the rider must have an excellent sense of timing and feel, as well as the years of training to develop the horse's fitness, strength and balance.
> The tempi changes are canter strides. The horse changes lead every stride, but it is still canter, a true, 3 beat canter. They are taught beginning with single changes, by establishing a clear canter aid with the riders seat and leg, then setting the horse up with excellent balance, and applying the aid for say a left canter while on the right lead.
> All dressage movements are like this, we don't work on a single leg, but the body as a whole. It is not an order of when the feet are elevated as such, as again, we are not changing the pace. A canter pirouette, should still be a 3 beat, clean canter. A passage, should still be clear 2 beat, piaffe should be clear 2 beat. None of the dressage movements train a different order of 'how the feet are elevated'.


We never said they were picking their feet up in a different order. The point we were trying to make is dressage is hard for the horse, as is learning a new gait. In a way, both are like a dance. And just because we're not dressage riders doesn't mean we don't have years of horse experience. I've been ridding and training barrel horses for 20 years. AND I'm a certified farrier.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Nothing was said about your level of experience. Please refrain from quoting me and then putting words into my mouth.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Kayty said:


> Nothing was said about your level of experience. Please refrain from quoting me and then putting words into my mouth.


 
Like.

I have done some research, and everything I've read seems to shout and scream a basic understanding of dressage is helpful.
"The horse needs to be soft in the mouth to tolt well, do everything you can to keep your horse soft and responsive in the bit. Avoid a dropped back and eve-neck, because that leads to a tense body and stiff or no tolt. The softer you are, the softer the horse is, and the softer the tolt is. "

I believe this website will help.
I cannot find anything that says any other breed apart from a icelandic can tolt, perhaps its a confirmation thing. You don't send a minature yorkie to bring down a deer sort of thing.

http://www.icelandichorse.is/tolt.htm


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Ponies100 said:


> pacing, not racking. Some standardbreds are 3 gaited just like a paint.


 Depends on what they are bred for. Some are bred to gait some are not.Just a little info on their gaits
The Black Book


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

Kayty said:


> Nothing was said about your level of experience. Please refrain from quoting me and then putting words into my mouth.


 Well I'm getting sick of all the dressage riders saying I can't teach my horse to tolt, then going on and on about all their years of experience. All I'm saying is just because you can't teach a horse to tolt doesn't mean no one can. It doens't even mean I can I'd just like to try it and am looking for help learning how not looking to be told over and over again by all these dressage riders that it can't be done. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, sorry if you took it that way.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

churumbeque said:


> Depends on what they are bred for. Some are bred to gait some are not.Just a little info on their gaits
> The Black Book


 The one in the video took a canter stride, that would make it a trotter wouldn't it? If it is a trotter it was taught to rack, even if it was a pacer, it was still taught to rack. I thought it looked neat anyway.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Ponies100 said:


> The one in the video took a canter stride, that would make it a trotter wouldn't it? If it is a trotter it was taught to rack, even if it was a pacer, it was still taught to rack. I thought it looked neat anyway.


 I didn't watch the video just read the info but any horse gaited or not can canter so it could be either.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Ponies100 said:


> ...All I'm saying is just because you can't teach a horse to tolt doesn't mean no one can. It doens't even mean I can I'd just like to try it and am looking for help learning how not looking to be told over and over again by all these dressage riders that it can't be done...





Kayty said:


> ...Training a whole new gait... I would have no idea where to start...


Most riders, including dressage riders, have no interest in teaching a new gait to a horse. They cannot advise you on how to do something they have never wished to do.

This could become a profitable niche for you...training pintos and quarter horses to tolt. I suspect there will not be a lot of competition.

Meanwhile, someone is trying to sell instructions on how to shoe a horse to prevent a trotty tolt. I have no idea if what they sell is valid, but it might give you an idea of how to start.






You might also glean ideas from here:

Tolt, Smooth Gait on a Wonderful Horse or here Tölt Il. How Tölt is Ridden


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## rosie1 (Feb 28, 2011)

OP why teach different gaits rather than new disciplines ect? Don't take this question negatively I'm honestly just curious
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

the OP. Regardless of what anyone thinks your horse can or can'tvdo, I do not believe you will find your answer here. No one

And yes, standardbreds can both rack and pace. One is a two beat lateral and the other a four beat lateral. Both lateral. both nanosecobds away from each other in cadence. It is not the trotters taught to rack. Angles of the feet, length of toe, weight of shoe and other things can help a horse clean up one or the other gaot. The vast majority of speed rackers in my area are standardbreds. Geberally, a rack is preferred under saddle compared to the pace.

No one here will be able to answer your question. They don't know how. Ask a good saddlebred trainer how he starts a colt racking. Ask a speed racker how he asks and maintains and trains/Conditions his. Find the contact info of the people you "know" of and ask them.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

rosie1 said:


> OP why teach different gaits rather than new disciplines ect? Don't take this question negatively I'm honestly just curious
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Just because it's different and no one else seems to have tried it.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

LadyDreamer said:


> the OP. Regardless of what anyone thinks your horse can or can'tvdo, I do not believe you will find your answer here. No one
> 
> And yes, standardbreds can both rack and pace. One is a two beat lateral and the other a four beat lateral. Both lateral. both nanosecobds away from each other in cadence. It is not the trotters taught to rack. Angles of the feet, length of toe, weight of shoe and other things can help a horse clean up one or the other gaot. The vast majority of speed rackers in my area are standardbreds. Geberally, a rack is preferred under saddle compared to the pace.
> 
> No one here will be able to answer your question. They don't know how. Ask a good saddlebred trainer how he starts a colt racking. Ask a speed racker how he asks and maintains and trains/Conditions his. Find the contact info of the people you "know" of and ask them.


 I will ask them. And if the dressage people can't help me why are they spending so much time telling me all the reasons why I can't? I'd like to try, I'll find a way to try. I obviously won't find it here but I thought it was a good place to start in case someone had done it already.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

And for the people that posted helpful things, thank you. For the people that came on here to express their knowledge about dressage and why I can't teach a horse to tolt... It's like you asking a dressage question and me saying you can't do it because I am a barrel racer and barrel racers move like this not that. Dressage horses have talent that barrel racers don't have. No doubt you could take one of my barrel ponies and teach it some dressage things because I'm sure you are very skilled at what you do, but it doesn't mean I can't take the horse that doesn't have the nautral ability to gait and teach it to gait. I'm someone who likes to keep learning. This is my new interest, that's why I'm looking into it.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

I find it odd that your 1 and only post on this forum are about such an odd request.


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## wetrain17 (May 25, 2011)

So...does this mean you will be also teaching a warmblood to corto or largo? I would like to see video of your planned training methods to teach a horse to place its feet in an unnatural way.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

churumbeque said:


> I find it odd that your 1 and only post on this forum are about such an odd request.


 I joined the forum so I could ask the question since I coudn't find it anywhere on the internet.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

wetrain17 said:


> So...does this mean you will be also teaching a warmblood to corto or largo? I would like to see video of your planned training methods to teach a horse to place its feet in an unnatural way.


 That's not what I said. I'm saying if people don't want to be helpful they need not comment for the sake of commenting so we can all see how much they know.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Just for curiosities sake... could you should us video of your horse doing all these gaits that you have taught it?


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## MySissyGirl (Dec 12, 2011)

Ponies100 said:


> I'm wondering how to teach my paint mare to tolt. I've taught her just about everything else, now I want to teach her to tolt and I'm not sure how to go about it. I know the gait comes almost natural to most icelandics, and I've heard it can be taught to individuals in any breed. If any paint can learn it, this mare can.


I don't know if this will help but it may.  http://www.icelandichorse.is/cleaningtr.htm


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## rosie1 (Feb 28, 2011)

I don't think anyone on here posted so that everyone can see how much they know. People have responded using examples from things they understand. flying changes and such came up from non-dressage people and were then explained by someone more knowledgable the difference between teaching an entirely new gait and enhancing the natural movement of a horse. I believe everything here has been pretty informative and at least constructive in a way that shows you the real challenges in what you want to accomplish. Don't take what people are saying as overly harsh its all good information that does pertain to your goal. If you really want to accomplish teaching a new gait you must understand how it works and why everyone saying that it will be "unatural" and difficult. I'm not going to say its impossible because I honestly have no idea but I do believe its going to be very difficult for all the reasons previously stated. Listen to what these people are saying and remember it when you attempt to train your horse, it will help you understand the true nature and demand of what your asking your pony to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MySissyGirl (Dec 12, 2011)

Ponies100 said:


> That's not what I said. I'm saying if people don't want to be helpful they need not comment for the sake of commenting so we can all see how much they know.


I agree with you....


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## MySissyGirl (Dec 12, 2011)

churumbeque said:


> I find it odd that your 1 and only post on this forum are about such an odd request.


That is a natural gate for an icelandic pony.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

rosie1 said:


> I don't think anyone on here posted so that everyone can see how much they know. People have responded using examples from things they understand. flying changes and such came up from non-dressage people and were then explained by someone more knowledgable the difference between teaching an entirely new gait and enhancing the natural movement of a horse. I believe everything here has been pretty informative and at least constructive in a way that shows you the real challenges in what you want to accomplish. Don't take what people are saying as overly harsh its all good information that does pertain to your goal. If you really want to accomplish teaching a new gait you must understand how it works and why everyone saying that it will be "unatural" and difficult. I'm not going to say its impossible because I honestly have no idea but I do believe its going to be very difficult for all the reasons previously stated. Listen to what these people are saying and remember it when you attempt to train your horse, it will help you understand the true nature and demand of what your asking your pony to do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 There were a few harshish comments, not from you though.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Just for curiosities sake... could you should us video of your horse doing all these gaits that you have taught it?


 Working on it. Difficult when you don't own a video camera.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Totally understandable.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Ponies100 said:


> Working on it. Difficult when you don't own a video camera.


 Pictures are just as valuable to look at.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Ponies100 - maybe try reading back through the thread. A couple of questions were asked regarding dressage. I explained how these movements were trained and the difference in training dressage movements vs a whole new gait. BECAUSE IT WAS ASKED. 
Once again, please refrain from jumping the gun, putting words in my mouth and throwing wild accusations. I only answered questions that were directed at dressage training. I did not 'go on about my years of experience' I did not tell you that it is impossible to teach your horse to Tolt. 
Again, please go back over the posts and read exactly what was said, I think you will find that you have put a lot of words into my mouth.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Ponies100 said:


> There were a few harshish comments, not from you though.


I just read this whole thread and didn't see any harsh comments. Yes there were questions and comparisons to dressage and answers were given regarding those questions showing that there really is no correlation between dressage training and teaching a non-gaited horse to gait. 

Please keep this thread on track and not turn it into a debate between disciplines.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

Kayty said:


> Ponies100 - maybe try reading back through the thread. A couple of questions were asked regarding dressage. I explained how these movements were trained and the difference in training dressage movements vs a whole new gait. BECAUSE IT WAS ASKED.
> Once again, please refrain from jumping the gun, putting words in my mouth and throwing wild accusations. I only answered questions that were directed at dressage training. I did not 'go on about my years of experience' I did not tell you that it is impossible to teach your horse to Tolt.
> Again, please go back over the posts and read exactly what was said, I think you will find that you have put a lot of words into my mouth.


 I didn't ask about dressage, stop putting words in MY mouth. I didn't accuse you of saying anything, I was making the statement in general. I don't know where you get the whole "wild accusations" thing, we were getting off topic is all, so please, don't be touchy.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

churumbeque said:


> Pictures are just as valuable to look at.


 Not everyone is fortunate enough to own a camera. I have only a few pictures of my mare taken by other people, and none of them are even under saddle.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

NorthernMama said:


> I don't see that it would be impossible at all. Look at what dressage involves. How much of that is natural? Skipping? Ya, what horse _naturally_ skips?





Kayty said:


> Horses don't 'skip' in dressage. I presume you are referring to single tempi changes. These are the result of years upon years of training, building up from absolute basics, building strength, balance and timing. Whole different can of worms to teaching a new gait to a horse that does not naturally have that gait.





Ponies100 said:


> If it takes so many years than it is obviously far from natural just like teaching a horse to gait, skipping or not.





Kayty said:


> Nope, not because it's far from natural - because we don't want to damage joints. Its easy to teach a horse to change, piaffe etc. if you want to push them into it.
> But because as dressage riders we want to build a strong, fit, balanced horse, we train over many years. I've seen horses do single tempi changes in the paddock. My yearling piaffes and passages around the paddock when I go out with the feed bucket, and puts in clean flying changes all over the place when he sees me coming to catch him when he runs to the gate.





NorthernMama said:


> OK, regarding my wording of "skipping" -- sorry that I don't know dressage, but to my uneducated mind, it looks like skipping. Regardless, point made that it can be taught.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...





Kayty said:


> Dressage movements vs training a new gait is still like comparing apples and oranges. Dressage builds on existing paces, improving, refining and strengthening the natural paces. The movements built on this, keeping the regularity and purity of the existing paces while showing off the strength and balance of the horse.
> 
> Training a whole new gait... I would have no idea where to start. Dressage starts from breaking. Working on improving and strengthening what is already there. A new gait is not already there. Things like Spanish walk and Spanish trot, they are again, just extensions of a gait that is already there. Not a completely new gait.





NorthernMama said:


> Katy, I understand how a Spanish walk is an extension / exaggeration of an existing gait. But if you could maybe explain the very basic beginning of how to control which foot is used when, that might help us understand. So the single tempi changes are what exactly then? We're still asking for a particular order that the feet are elevated and the horse's weight is shifted.
> 
> Here are my further thoughts on teaching this. I may even try it if I get ambitious. Sounds like a good winter project to start on ground work. Thoughts on this are welcome:
> 
> ...


 
No... no body asked about dressage  You didn't, but NorthernMama did and I answered those - I never said that YOU asked about dressage.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Ponies100 said:


> I didn't ask about dressage, stop putting words in MY mouth...so please, don't be touchy.


"Originally Posted by *Kayty* 
_Ponies100 - maybe try reading back through the thread. A couple of questions were asked regarding dressage."_

Kayty's post doesn't say you asked. As for touchiness:



Ponies100 said:


> Well I'm getting sick of all the dressage riders saying I can't teach my horse to tolt, then going on and on about all their years of experience. All I'm saying is just because you can't teach a horse to tolt doesn't mean no one can...





Ponies100 said:


> I will ask them. And if the dressage people can't help me why are they spending so much time telling me all the reasons why I can't?...





Ponies100 said:


> That's not what I said. I'm saying if people don't want to be helpful they need not comment for the sake of commenting so we can all see how much they know.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

bsms said:


> "Originally Posted by *Kayty*
> _Ponies100 - maybe try reading back through the thread. A couple of questions were asked regarding dressage."_
> 
> Kayty's post doesn't say you asked. As for touchiness:


 The comments made by me were comments not questions. I didn't ask a question about tolting to end up having an arguement about dressage.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

Sorry, I'm not trying to be a witch. I'm just getting a bit fed up with a discussion about dressage when I asked about gaiting. No harsh feelings.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Ponies100 said:


> The comments made by me were comments not questions. I didn't ask a question about tolting to end up having an arguement about dressage.


Please refer to my last post containing multiple posts containing questions which then received answers. Once again, no one said YOU asked questions, just that questions were asked in general. It is quite beneficial to get your story straight before jumping up and down guns blazing when there are 8 pages of replies stating otherwise


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

Kayty said:


> Please refer to my last post containing multiple posts containing questions which then received answers. Once again, no one said YOU asked questions, just that questions were asked in general. It is quite beneficial to get your story straight before jumping up and down guns blazing when there are 8 pages of replies stating otherwise


 Just like I didn't say you were the one posting about your knowledge about dressage, I said people, and somehow that was putting words in your mouth? I never said you just like you never said me, so I guess no one put words in anyones mouth.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

When I was the only one posting about dressage?? Pot... meet kettle


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

Kayty said:


> When I was the only one posting about dressage?? Pot... meet kettle


 You weren't the only one.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Oh LORD people! I'm so sorry that I put dressage into this at all  Chill, please. ?

And just so y'all can know -- I did some more research and came to the conclusion that there is absolutely NO WAY that I would ever be able to teach a horse at this level. :? My whole idea of footfall just would never work and BTW Ponies, I am the one who brought that up.

Still an interesting idea and I would still love to see some videos.


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

When you said that you want to teach a horse to toto because you don't think anyone has tried it, this makes me think you want a challenge no? (can't quote exact post as I'm on my iPod and don't know how) why not teach her something else? There are plenty of other commands to teach that is not as extreme as a new gait. And while I'm on topic.... Listen to us dressage riders, especially kayty, as we have some valuable information.

Not being rude in any way guys 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

Oops rephrasing that last sentence...

Take peoples advice to mind, regardless of wether they are dressage riders or showjumpers, everyone has some good suggestions and advice. Keep an open mind yeah? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Having read a few articles on the 'Tolt' its easy to see at least a basic understanding of dressage will help, as it does with SJ and Xcountry. Dressage is there to hlelp you understand the movement and feeling of the horse, so why not listen to some brilliant dressage riders on this forum that are so willingly giving advice? Confused me.

Where I can't find anything to say its only Icelandic ponies that can do it, I don't know if they have a special confirmation, or anything else that allows them to do this. My WB walks, trots, canters and gallops. Now, I don't want her to tolt but looking at the explanations on line and youtubing tolt, I am still in doubt it could be taught to anything and anyone.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

I am trying to use their information. In some places they were using it to prove a horse couldn't learn a new gait because in dressage you work with the existing gaits and it is natural whereas a new gait is un-natural, which is fine. And Tess, I just got a crazy idea in my head and wanted to try it. I've done a lot of things with different horses, but never taught a new gait. I'd take up dressage or something, but I'm not really in the position to take lessons at this time so I wanted something uncostly to teach my mare that would also be challenging, and like teaching to pace where I put Standardbred things on her legs that the use to teach Standardbreds to pace (not even sure what they are called, just borrowed some and it worked well) I thought there would be a way to teach the tolt as well. I did find a little information on it, tolt is easier for a horse with a longer neck (which my mare has) if it is not an Icelandic, and you can't sit on the withers, if you don't have an icelandic or saddle seat saddle, go bareback and sit back further. Also there different shoeing techniques that can be used, being a farrier I don't agree with some of them, like messing with the foot balance, but different shoe weights I can handle. I'll start with this, and see where I end up.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Ponies100 said:


> I am trying to use their information. In some places they were using it to prove a horse couldn't learn a new gait because in dressage you work with the existing gaits and it is natural whereas a new gait is un-natural, which is fine. And Tess, I just got a crazy idea in my head and wanted to try it. I've done a lot of things with different horses, but never taught a new gait.


 You stated that you have taught a new gait. You said you have taught your paint to pace and fox trot which would be a new gait to an ungaited horse such as a paint.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

churumbeque said:


> You stated that you have taught a new gait. You said you have taught your paint to pace and fox trot which would be a new gait to an ungaited horse such as a paint.


 Exactly, but I have never taught a horse to tolt. I even explained how I taught her to pace.


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

churumbeque said:


> You stated that you have taught a new gait. You said you have taught your paint to pace and fox trot which would be a new gait to an ungaited horse such as a paint.


 What I meant was I haven't taught this gait, not a gait. I worded it wrong. Sorry.


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## Pyrrhic (Dec 11, 2011)

I'd be interested to see a video of your paint fox trotting and pacing


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Pyrrhic said:


> I'd be interested to see a video of your paint fox trotting and pacing


 
Agreed, would be awesome to see. Teaching a horse new tricks ;D I like my walk trot canter to be fair haha!


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

Pyrrhic said:


> I'd be interested to see a video of your paint fox trotting and pacing


 As I said before, I don't have a camera or video camera, i have a few pics of my mare that other people took and gave to me. That's all, but I am in the process of trying to find someone to video it or at least take pictures so I can post them on here. It's also hard when there are snow drifts at high as your barn.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Ponies100 said:


> As I said before, I don't have a camera or video camera, i have a few pics of my mare that other people took and gave to me. That's all, but I am in the process of trying to find someone to video it or at least take pictures so I can post them on here. It's also hard when there are snow drifts at high as your barn.


 Just wondering how you know what gait your horse is doing if you haven't seen pictures of you riding?


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## Ponies100 (Dec 13, 2011)

churumbeque said:


> Just wondering how you know what gait your horse is doing if you haven't seen pictures of you riding?


 People helped me. The only problem is there aren't any icelandic people within helping distance of me so not sure what I'm going to do there yet. That's why I was hoping to get her doing it while I was on the ground first so I could see, but if not I'll just have to have someone help me and we can take turns riding and watching.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Ponies100 said:


> I joined the forum so I could ask the question since I coudn't find it anywhere on the internet.



Maybe that is because no one felt teaching a non tolting horse to tolt is either worthwhile, useful or were ever able to do so ?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Ponies100 said:


> like teaching to pace where I put Standardbred things on her legs that the use to teach Standardbreds to pace (not even sure what they are called, just borrowed some and it worked well) ............ Also there different shoeing techniques that can be used, being a farrier I don't agree with some of them, like messing with the foot balance, but different shoe weights I can handle. I'll start with this, and see where I end up.


I am glad you don't want to mess with her foot balance just for the sake of teaching something new and unusual. 

However, the use of hobbles to train her to pace is just cruel. I understand that some STBs are 'reminded' of how to pace using these too, but that is cruel too. You have not 'taught' your mare to pace - you have forced her into it and she is doing it to avoid pain and discomfort.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Chiilaa, you can not judge that using hobbles to train is cruel without seeing how the tool is being used. I think that is unfair to Ponies.

And to the several people have posted how they think teaching a new gait to a horse is basically a waste of time: well, maybe to you. Just like to me it is not worthwhile to teach a horse tempi changes, or how to run barrels. Different strokes for different folks. If no one ever took on a new challenge to learn new things, we'd still be living in caves without even any paintings on the walls.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

NorthernMama said:


> Just like to me it is not worthwhile to teach a horse tempi changes,


There is nothing in dressage that we are teaching our horses, all we are doing is building on their strength and everyones communication skills, to get them to produce these movements on request, and with precision.

I watch my foals playing together, they naturally change lead while cantering, you'll even see tempi changes, hell Stewie was doing flying changes at 2 weeks of age, they'll pirouette, piaffe, passage, half pass, hey they'll even have a great try at high school movements like levade.

That to me is the whole point, the horses KNOW all this before we start, whereas I have never seen my guys racking or tolting when left on their own.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Golden Horse said:


> There is nothing in dressage that we are teaching our horses, all we are doing is building on their strength and everyones communication skills, to get them to produce these movements on request, and with precision.
> 
> *I watch my foals playing together, they naturally change lead while cantering, you'll even see tempi changes, hell Stewie was doing flying changes at 2 weeks of age, they'll pirouette, piaffe, passage, half pass, hey they'll even have a great try at high school movements like lev*ade.
> 
> That to me is the whole point, the horses KNOW all this before we start, whereas I have never seen my guys racking or tolting when left on their own.


Yep Golden, thats what I said earlier  Love watching my yearling piaffing by the gate when he gets excited, then tearing off across the paddock through in CLEAN changes  Now I just need to wait a few years to ride it, but its fantastic to see a youngster pulling clean changes in the paddock, you know they have a good canter if they can do that!
If he started pacing in the paddock.... I think I would be a little distraught and question his breeding!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Kayty said:


> If he started pacing in the paddock.... I think I would be a little distraught and question his breeding!


I would love to see your face if he did:lol:


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Golden Horse said:


> I would love to see your face if he did:lol:


Picture taking a lolly pop away from a 4 year old.... 

I think that would be an accurate description of my feelings if my apparent hanoverian x thoroughbred with papers, registration with the hanoverian studbook, branded as a hanoverian and DNA tested as a hanoverian... started to pace :shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

And not for the first time I'm trying to explain to my family just why I'm laughing quite so much :rofl::rofl:


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Maybe a little like this?
Redirect Notice


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

NorthernMama said:


> Chiilaa, you can not judge that using hobbles to train is cruel without seeing how the tool is being used. I think that is unfair to Ponies.


I completely fail to see any circumstance where hobbles cannot be cruel when used to force a horse to use a gait that they a - don't know how to do, and b - do not have the natural inclination to learn. The simple fact is that you have to put them on when the horse is standing still. Then you ask them to walk on, then to "pace" and they are naturally going to offer a trot. Since the walk is not lateral, every stride is going to be restricted and uncomfortable with the hobbles on. 

As or the trot, again, since it is a diagonal pace, there is no way the horse could trot in hobbles without discomfort. Every single stride is going to bring confusion to the horse, as there is no clear instruction of "this is what I want you to do". Instead, the horse is trying to do what it thinks you want, and is being met with pain. 

There is no 'learning' going on, there is no 'teaching'. There is just a confused horse that can't do what comes naturally, and a rider who thinks that a broken, shuffling trot, that is being forced lateral, is a pace.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

GH -- so training is not teaching. My point is only that some people would rather spend time developing one particular area, where someone else sees it only as a waste of time. However, just because I'm not going to teach my horse -- oh sorry _train _my horse to bow doesn't mean it's a waste of time for someone else. 

Chillia -- so then if hopples (sorry, not hobbles) are cruel so is anything else that is restrictive or applies pressure. Therefore, teaching my horse to be hobbled (not hopples) is also cruel. Because, you know, a horse isn't supposed to take little tiny steps like that. My point is only that any training method can be cruel. It's not the tool (mostly); its the trainer.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

NorthernMama said:


> GH -- so training is not teaching.


Yup you are correct, here I train, well I try very poorly with a lot of help train.......or maybe coach, because I am trying to develop and enhance what they already know.

I've never really thought about the semantics of it, but I suppose I would class carrying a rider as teaching, it is something that a horse would not naturally accept, being a prey animal, something on your back is not a thing that would be good:wink:

But I do personally think there is a difference between teaching tricks, and developing natural paces.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

NorthernMama said:


> GH -- so training is not teaching. My point is only that some people would rather spend time developing one particular area, where someone else sees it only as a waste of time. However, just because I'm not going to teach my horse -- oh sorry _train _my horse to bow doesn't mean it's a waste of time for someone else.
> 
> Chillia -- so then if hopples (sorry, not hobbles) are cruel so is anything else that is restrictive or applies pressure. Therefore, teaching my horse to be hobbled (not hopples) is also cruel. Because, you know, a horse isn't supposed to take little tiny steps like that. My point is only that any training method can be cruel. It's not the tool (mostly); its the trainer.


You are talking about something totally different. The hopples on a standardbred are not an issue because they can gait naturally but putting them on a nongaited horse could be considered cruel. I consider it a waste of time, cruel and on the stupid side to even consider trying to "teach a nongaited horse to tolt,pace,rack or whatever you want to call it. Their body mechanics are not built for it and I think ponies is incorrect that her horse can do any of those things.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Yes, I agree that there is definitely a difference between teaching tricks and developing natural paces, but I don't see why teaching a trick of doing an unnatural gait is so against the grain for many people. There are some things that some horses individually can't learn, or yes are physically incapable of doing, but unless we try, we don't know.

As for the hopples, not all Standardbreds gait. And owners of the strictly trotters don't usually ask those horses to pace and so use the trotting hopples instead. 

I dunno; I guess I just figure its worth a shot, but we do have to be willing to have our eyes open so we can see if something is not going to work. If I actually had enough skill to do it, I would be a person that would try. I would also be someone who would quit if it wasn't working. I wouldn't want to mess with my horse's mindset or physique over trying something new.

And to Ponies: yes, I am also still waiting for some videos to see what you have accomplished with your horse. By not posting any, you're actually supporting people's thoughts that this can't be done. Why not prove them wrong? And, hey, even if it ends up that what you thought was a pace is really closer to an imperfect trot -- so what? We'll all still have had an interesting conversation. Post away!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

NorthernMama said:


> Chillia -- so then if hopples (sorry, not hobbles) are cruel so is anything else that is restrictive or applies pressure. Therefore, teaching my horse to be hobbled (not hopples) is also cruel. Because, you know, a horse isn't supposed to take little tiny steps like that. My point is only that any training method can be cruel. It's not the tool (mostly); its the trainer.


Training a horse to stand still so that they are safe in a certain situation is completely different to training a horse to learn a trick for our own satisfaction. I am not saying we don't train the trick because it's selfish or anything like that. I am just saying that as the "logical" part of the partnership, it is our responsibility to ensure that the methods we use are doing the horse justice.

When you teach a horse to hobble, you are not asking anything of them that they cannot naturally do. You are asking for them to stand still without moving around too much. There is no confusion for them - they move and they meet resistance, they stay still and nothing happens. The cause and effect is clear and simple for the horse to understand. 

Using hopples to force a horse to pace is confusing them. They are already uncomfortable in a walk as the hopples ARE restrictive even at that pace. Then the rider asks for them to move faster, and through the training the horse has already received, they will move into a trot. That is how the horse has been trained until now - walking, asked for more forward, hey let's trot! Suddenly though, the trot is uncomfortable, painful, and probably impossible. The horse does not understand that the rider wants a completely different gait - all the horse in this circumstance would understand is that the rider has asked for something, the horse has given what it thinks the rider wants, and is met with negative reinforcement. THIS is the cruelty in the method. Not that the hopples are restrictive. The cruelty is that the horse is trying their best to respond to the rider. 

I agree completely with you - tools are not cruel, training methods are. This is a cruel training method, using a tool incorrectly and causing emotional/mental harm to the horse.


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## BlackCricket (Oct 20, 2011)

just a fun bit of info...Tolt is just the icelandic word for a type of rack  Many names for just a handful of gaits---footfall patterns may be the same and sometimes it's just the speed of the gait you get that makes the difference. 
kinda like how running walk is the same as a paso llano....different name for the same gait


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

I breed Icelandic's mine are all 5 gait walk, trot, canter, tolt, and the flying pace all natural, I have experiment with some crossbreeding to see if I could get a tolt but have not been able to I have gotten are animated high stepping smooth gait similar to a Standard Bred but no tolt the closest I have gotten is from a gaited Morgan the gait from the foal is like a Passos gait but not a tolt. There is nothing like riding the tolt and flying pace or an Icee for that matter, they are fun to ride and be around.
If you can teach it to your mare go for it good luck I hope you can.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

cmarie said:


> I breed Icelandic's mine are all 5 gait walk, trot, canter, tolt, and the flying pace all natural, I have experiment with some crossbreeding to see if I could get a tolt but have not been able to I have gotten are animated high stepping smooth gait similar to a Standard Bred but no tolt the closest I have gotten is from a gaited Morgan the gait from the foal is like a Passos gait but not a tolt. There is nothing like riding the tolt and flying pace or an Icee for that matter, they are fun to ride and be around.
> If you can teach it to your mare go for it good luck I hope you can.


So as an experienced Icelanadic person you would encourage someone with a paint to try and teach a tolt when you couldn't get it from a part Icelandic that would have some breeding to possible do it? Or are you being sarcastic? just curious.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

DuffyDuck said:


> Like.
> 
> I have done some research, and everything I've read seems to shout and scream a basic understanding of dressage is helpful.
> "The horse needs to be soft in the mouth to tolt well, do everything you can to keep your horse soft and responsive in the bit. Avoid a dropped back and eve-neck, because that leads to a tense body and stiff or no tolt. The softer you are, the softer the horse is, and the softer the tolt is. "
> ...


Evert time I've seen a video of someone trying to gait a non-gaited horse the above is exactly how the horse was moving & the horse did not look happy.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

MySissyGirl said:


> That is a natural gate for an icelandic pony.


LOL, if you call an Icelandic a pony the Icelandic people get really mad.


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

churumbeque said:


> So as an experienced Icelanadic person you would encourage someone with a paint to try and teach a tolt when you couldn't get it from a part Icelandic that would have some breeding to possible do it? Or are you being sarcastic? just curious.



I don't know if it can be done, but I not a trainer, I can train basics, but I've never had to train for a gait, or had to use mechanical aides to get the gaits, they have come naturally to my horses. I don't see a problem in trying to teach it. We teach our horses to go against their natural instincts all the time. Like not to run from dogs, cars, from us, so why not. If it can be done, I would love to know how. I have heard that the gaites can't be taught, that the horse has them or doesn't, if that's true then why are there trainers out there that train gaits, are they just reminding the horse of something that they already have?


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

cmarie said:


> I don't know if it can be done, but I not a trainer, I can train basics, but I've never had to train for a gait, or had to use mechanical aides to get the gaits, they have come naturally to my horses. I don't see a problem in trying to teach it. We teach our horses to go against their natural instincts all the time. Like not to run from dogs, cars, from us, so why not. If it can be done, I would love to know how. I have heard that the gaites can't be taught, that the horse has them or doesn't, if that's true then why are there trainers out there that train gaits, are they just reminding the horse of something that they already have?


Teaching them not to run from dogs can not even compare. That is some desensitizing and trust. The trainers that are training gaits are doing so with horses that possibly have the structure and back ground to do it.

A gaited horse has different bone structure than a trotting horse. They have a longer spine that goes past the point of hip while a trotting horse has a shorter spine in front of the point of hip. The ratio's of length of hip is also different and that is why some gaited horses can gait better than others and some do not gait well.

Is it possible to train a person to live underwater like a fish? I don't think so.


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

When you teach a horse not to run from a dog you are going against it's natural fight or flight instinct.
I didn't know about the bone structure you speak of it's not something that I have ever looked into but thank you for the info, but I do know that the Icelandics are heavily muscled, and my 13 hand yearling has bigger cannon bones than my 16 hand bulldog Paint gelding. 
But back to the tolt it's the same gait as the walk a 4 beat gait, at least one foot is on the ground at a time, the trick for her to train her paint to do it at speed, you can shoe to get the high stepping movement, not something I would do.
Here is a decent web site that explains the tolt. There are many out there.
tolt


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

I just came in from riding my Standardbred pacer. And we had a wonderful collected trot. Now how is it that a physically my horse was bred and raced to pace, but she can trot? And as a matter of fact, she couldn't trot when I got her. I TAUGHT her to trot by doing hills and serpentines at increasing speeds. She would not trot in the paddock until after I worked with her. It was pretty funny to watch her try to pace over uneven ground!

There have been many, many threads about how to teach an OTStdbd how to trot and never has there ever been a question about whether or not the horse can physcially do it. Or how it might be cruel.

As cmarie pointed out, a tolt is a variation of a rack which is a variation of a walk. Hmmm... 

And just what would be the _physical _limitations of any horse to learn how to pace, tolt, rack? I see only muscle use and balance as being different, which is not a limitation. Training is about developing that -- as has already been said.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

All gaited horses can trot and lots do. If they are well gaited they don't trot as much but most trot at random times. Also a standardbred background is both they are just bred more so towards what is desired by who ever is doing the breeding.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

NorthernMama said:


> I just came in from riding my Standardbred pacer. And we had a wonderful collected trot. Now how is it that a physically my horse was bred and raced to pace, but she can trot? And as a matter of fact, she couldn't trot when I got her. I TAUGHT her to trot by doing hills and serpentines at increasing speeds. She would not trot in the paddock until after I worked with her. It was pretty funny to watch her try to pace over uneven ground!


This is EXACTLY my point. You used a method that was not cruel and mentally torturing your horse. Did you punish her every time she paced instead of trotting? Because hopples punish the OP's horse every time she trots instead of pacing.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Chiilaa said:


> This is EXACTLY my point. You used a method that was not cruel and mentally torturing your horse. Did you punish her every time she paced instead of trotting? Because hopples punish the OP's horse every time she trots instead of pacing.


 I would think hopples could actually make a trotting horse stumble and fall down? Or do they just stand there because of confusion?


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

I never heard of hopples being used to teach a gait before this thread. In the biz, you wouldn't put pacing hopples on a trotter or vice versa and the hopples are different of course. 

I don't know how it would work to teach a pace though, because I don't think any horse can pace at a walking speed. It's a suspended gait, isn't it? Seems to me it is, so how to teach that slowly is beyond my guesswork. Of course, much this I am discussing in theory only. When I taught my standie to trot, it was either trot or fall down; can't pace on uneven ground and REALLY hard down hill. Not much training there, just: figure it out horse and let's go! 

Back to a tolt though, that is NOT a suspended gait. One foot is on the ground at all times, so it could be taught from a walk I think and then extended from there.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

NorthernMama said:


> I never heard of hopples being used to teach a gait before this thread. In the biz, you wouldn't put pacing hopples on a trotter or vice versa and the hopples are different of course.
> 
> I don't know how it would work to teach a pace though, because I don't think any horse can pace at a walking speed. It's a suspended gait, isn't it? Seems to me it is, so how to teach that slowly is beyond my guesswork. Of course, much this I am discussing in theory only. When I taught my standie to trot, it was either trot or fall down; can't pace on uneven ground and REALLY hard down hill. Not much training there, just: figure it out horse and let's go!
> 
> Back to a tolt though, that is NOT a suspended gait. One foot is on the ground at all times, so it could be taught from a walk I think and then extended from there.


From what I remember from my old saddlebred days they would take a 5gaited prospect and trot him fast down a hill to see if he would break from a trot and rack but again only ones that are built for it could do it and I don't see a paint doing it. The OP has seem to dissappear or maybe she is getting that video?


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

churumbeque said:


> The OP has seem to dissappear or maybe she is getting that video?


LOL... yup still waiting here too.


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