# Opinions on Starfishing?



## COWCHICK77

I am anti-starfish.
I have been popped out of the saddle on occasion from a mistake but never from kicking.
I used to work for a barrel racing production company, you wouldn't believe how many boots and spurs had been flung off from over-kicking. There was usually a pile of unclaimed spurs at the end of a race, most everyone came and got their boot but sometimes there was a few random lonely boots left..lol

I am not a kicker and this may come from my very short career as a jockey racing mules on the fair circuit, but a well timed smack with a stick or over and under will cause a horse to lengthen it's stride. Where kicking causes a horse to tense up and shorten, lift the ribs. 

nothing wrong with a few small kicks to encourage or remind a horse to listen to your leg but that huge starfishing kicking is excessive and uncalled for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sharpie

*I am not a barrel racer* so I don't know if my opinions count, but I don't get it and it seems really foolish to me. It's actually one reason I usually avoid watching barrel racing actually... just seems like poor horsemanship, and along with all the other examples of poor horsemandship associated with the lower level local shows I've been to, it sucks all the fun out of going. 

You don't see TB jockeys doing it. You don't see endurance riders doing it. I haven't been to QH sprinting events, so I can't say if they do it or not, but in racing (for fun) my own horse against friends', none of us have ever found it helpful or necessary. It seems like it would put the horse off balance, not to mention the rider, and if the horse is having to balance that, they can't concentrate on *forward.* When I've needed speed from my guy, a bump with the leg or a quick smack has been plenty sufficient. If they can feel a fly land, why would you need the theatrics?

I would be interested to know if anyone has studied it at all- ie, does it really help the horses run faster? Or does it just give the human something to do so they feel like they're 'helping' their horse run faster? Of course, I am sure the horses become trained to it, and are waiting for that cue after a while.


----------



## phantomhorse13

COWCHICK77 said:


> you wouldn't believe how many boots and spurs had been flung off from over-kicking.


You mean the boot of the _rider_ comes off?!

I am not a barrel racer, but I cannot imagine how any action on the part of the rider which results in boots flying off would be helpful to the horse at all.


----------



## Avna

Long long ago, in my gymkhana days, there was a young man who participated with his long-legged un-quarterhorse-looking sorrel. Unusual just for being male (and he was sadly very shy as well), he was also unusual in that his horse walked calmly into the arena on a loose rein. He had no whip and no spurs. He would lean forward and say "shhhhh" in his horse's ear and that horse would take off like the proverbial bat from down below. When he wanted more speed he would shhhhh again and that horse would burn down the arena. At the end he would slow himself up and walk out the gate. 

We never could figure out how he did it. He won a *lot*. 

I think about him sometimes.


----------



## boots

Sharpie said:


> You don't see TB jockeys doing it. You don't see endurance riders doing it. I haven't been to QH sprinting events, so I can't say if they do it or not...


That's where I am with it. 

Jockeys (TB, QH) don't do it. If it worked, I guarantee they would. I love to see if it has been studies and what the results were.

Polo players don't starfish either. Of course they'd wipe each other out with the mallets if they tried! 

I'm too visual. Now I'm picturing a field littered with the players of Orchard Hill and Valiente teams!


----------



## COWCHICK77

phantomhorse13 said:


> You mean the boot of the _rider_ comes off?!
> 
> I am not a barrel racer, but I cannot imagine how any action on the part of the rider which results in boots flying off would be helpful to the horse at all.


Yes unfortunately. The boot flying off was due to excessive kicking.

I like and enjoy barrel racing because to do it well takes training and know how to keep a horse running and running hard. But it draws a lot of novices because it seems so simple and fun. To top it off barrel horse bring a lot of money and the shows pay well. More than cow and rope horses where you need cattle to practoce. (However there are exceptions, I believe Bob Avila won a futurity on a horse that never seen a cow)


----------



## Roman

OMG...starfishing. There was this HUGE debate about it on Instagram, someone even started a #teamstarfish and would post picture of people starfishing and say "Good job", "Go girl!!". Then they'd turn around and tell me they don't support it. How contradicting...

But I hate it! When your rear end is THAT far out of the saddle and your legs are practically doing the splits, it's NOT an accident. I can highly understand people that get bounced out of the saddle - I've experienced it. Cantering Roman, my legs can't keep still (something I need to work on), so while I'm trying to slow him down, my legs are still flopping and kicking his side. So I can understand you being popped out, but being that high up?

No, just no.

I've also been told it doesn't hurt them and they can't feel it. Which brought up the fact that horses have thinner skin than humans - which they also believed false. *sigh* 

Example of how starfishing doesn't work, I have a neighbor who barrel races and he starfishes. He's been in the 2D/3D with his horse. My instructor (not bragging just because she's my instructor) does not starfish and finished like 6th (?) in the 1D on one of her horses. Hmm...and they don't race as often as my neighbor does either, that I know of.


----------



## COWCHICK77

I agree Roman.
one of my best friends runs pro and to watch her run and see the pics, it looks like she's pleasure riding. Relaxed, legs on her horse. She rides eventers and cow horses the same. I aspire to ride like her.


----------



## Roman

COWCHICK77 said:


> I agree Roman.
> one of my best friends runs pro and to watch her run and see the pics, it looks like she's pleasure riding. Relaxed, legs on her horse. She rides eventers and cow horses the same. I aspire to ride like her.


Yup. If the riders like you explained can do it, surely "starfishers" will have no trouble keeping their legs still. There are two barrel racers I met on Instagram, one rides quiet and doesn't starfish, the other starfishes sometimes - occasionally she shows a video of her riding and there's very little kicking. The one who doesn't starfish at all placed higher than the girl that does at a show.


----------



## BarrelRacin

Sharpie;7864978 When I've needed speed from my guy said:


> Can I just say how much I LOVE this bit: "if they can feel a fly land, why all the theatrics?" That is just so true- I have to laugh when people say horses are thick skinned, or can't feel it... yeah, that's why they shudder when a fly lands on them...


----------



## SlideStop

No. No. No. 

Would you kick a horse that hard from the ground?! (Actually I have once, it was a fjord who was running me over, literally, for treats) 

Besides, when a horse is expecting a blow like that the are tensing up their muscles, which really doesn't allow them to fully stretch out their stride. I'd prefer and over and under and a VERBAL cue to run like the dickens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bombproof

Have you ever been punched in the ribs? Did you feel like stretching out?


----------



## Roman

Bombproof said:


> Have you ever been punched in the ribs? Did you feel like stretching out?


Agreed. I told the starfish supports to have a friend kick their side, then come back and tell me if it hurts or not. Because we have thicker skin, so image how much worse it feels to them..


----------



## Bombproof

Roman said:


> Agreed. I told the starfish supports to have a friend kick their side, then come back and tell me if it hurts or not. Because we have thicker skin, so image how much worse it feels to them..


It's not really the skin that's the issue, it's the muscles over the ribs and admittedly a horse can take quite a bit of a beating and still do okay, but that doesn't mean they like it or it will make them perform any better. Some horses just don't like to run and no amount of kicking or beating will change that, but most of them don't make it into the barrel racing arena. With a horse which likes to run, I've never had the need to kick them to make them reach out out and move. I think if you communicate well with the horse, he will give you everything he has when he knows you want it. Furthermore, I don't see how essentially removing your legs from the equation is a good idea from a purely safety standpoint. It looks like some of these gals have stopped riding and started hopping up and down. I'd think if anything that would tend to throw the horse off stride. I could be wrong, I guess, because some people who are winning are doing it, but I have a suspicion they'd do as well or better if they just stayed in the saddle and rode the horse.


----------



## BarrelRacer23

I've barrel raced for around 15 years, there's no pictures of me "star fishing". I've been popped out of the saddle a few times but from leaving the barrel or taking off, not from kicking. I don't see how it helps the horse go faster having someone flop around on their back at all. I kick from the knee down, which is more of just encouraging my horse to move.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## beau159

I don't see how anyone _could _advocate starfishing. What good can come of it? Having your butt that far out of the saddle will inevitably slow down your horse, because their body energy is working against yours and I don't know any horse that wants to run hard when being whallup'ed in the sides. 

Unfortunately, even world champions can be caught in the act. Although in her defense, this was before the "light bulb came on" for her and she's much improved her riding and owned up to her previous mistakes. 











Even though I try, I wouldn't claim that I never get off-balance or get put into a bad position, because that wouldn't be true. I'm not perfect. It happens. Barrel racing is so fast-paced and the horses are powerful. But even so, this is probably my own personal worst-case of starfishing ... if you can even call it that. 











I find it much more effective to encourage them by either squeezing my legs or bumping slightly. All-out kicking just doesn't make sense, in my mind. 





Avna said:


> Long long ago, in my gymkhana days, there was a young man who participated with his long-legged un-quarterhorse-looking sorrel. Unusual just for being male (and he was sadly very shy as well), he was also unusual in that his horse walked calmly into the arena on a loose rein. He had no whip and no spurs. He would lean forward and say "shhhhh" in his horse's ear and that horse would take off like the proverbial bat from down below. When he wanted more speed he would shhhhh again and that horse would burn down the arena. At the end he would slow himself up and walk out the gate.
> 
> We never could figure out how he did it. He won a *lot*.


He did it with _good training_ and _good communication_ with his horse. 

If I ask them to do so, my horses walk calmly into the arena, and then take off like a bat outta he!! when I ask them to. And then proceed to walk out of the arena on a loose rein. 

Training. And time.


----------



## carshon

Personally I think this is all for show - to make it look like they are making their horse run faster. Any good rider wants to ride with their horse and not hinder or ride against it. For those that race competetively it must make a good sponsor shot.


----------



## Roman

beau159 said:


> Unfortunately, even world champions can be caught in the act. Although in her defense, this was before the "light bulb came on" for her and she's much improved her riding and owned up to her previous mistakes.


Fallon still starfishes today. :/


----------



## karliejaye

If only they were able to levitate in that position, THEN I could see a benefit: no weight on the horse's back! Lol!

I didn't realize this atrocity had a name, and I struggle to comprehend that there are supporters of this. Horses are going to contract muscles and brace in anticipation of impact of the legs and seat on their backs, leading to hollow, shorter strides. A rider who sits the movements and can time their cues to the correct footfalls is going to be able to get a relaxed, longer, more powerful stride. Oh, and keep their horse's back healthier.


----------



## SorrelHorse

There's not a single horseman out there who will advocate starfishing.

Avna, I have to acknowledge your comment, because I kinda laughed. My boyfriend right now is someone I have barrel raced with for a long time. He does the same thing. I can hear him from across the grounds going "sssh, sssh, sssh...." the WHOLE time. Lol. When I asked him why he never just kicked or used a whip, he responded that he'd thought it was a good way to fall off, and that he'd rather just "ssh" and hope for the best. 

This developed him actually impressive balance. He spent so long trying to stay IN the saddle that he never really got in a position to be out of it. He doesn't usually hold onto the horn, ever, and almost always is on a loose rein. While he doesn't have a lot of "finesse", or knowledge about training very broke horses, he understands the basic level of "ride soft, get response, shoulder up, hip in." and that has served him well. 

Here's a photo of him running my horse last summer. Pretty much sums up the concept. Nothing spectacular, just a rider letting the horse go to work and do her job.


----------



## SorrelHorse

To add to that I'll share one of my not-so-fortunate moments and hopefully shed some light as to why HIS picture is very impressive - This is the same mare with me, she essentially is powerful enough to really just dashboard you. While we are together most of the time, occasionally we do this, and I find myself relying on balance in my stirrups and faith in that fire breathing dragon I call my horse. 

See, this mare turns like a freight train and here I am, unflatteringly out of the saddle, hand out of position, looking down and gripping that horn just to stay with her. I can't even imagine trying to "starfish" out of that.


----------



## smrobs

I have always believed that one of the reasons so many barrel racers have horses that are utter sh*ts in the alley is not because they "enjoy" running so much, but because that horse learns to associate being on the pattern with pain. The pain of having their face yanked off around the barrel and the pain of being gut-hooked with every stride and the pain of having their back knocked around the entire pattern. Then, having their mouth shredded when it's time to stop.

I honestly believe if more barrel racers strove to ride like this and have horses that responded like this, there would be nothing to complain about and they wouldn't be the laughingstock of the performance horse world (general stereotype due to all the crappy riders)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8TNTBi0v6k

But nope, instead we see more of this type of crap and it just makes my head hurt and my heart hurt for those poor horses.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

How in the Sam Hill do they get so far off those horses?! You would think it'd be absolutely physically exhausting to "ride" like that!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zexious

So, I'm very ignorant to most western riding practices... But can I ask what the purpose of this is? Are they trying to get more leverage for kicking? Or...? I just don't get it...


----------



## boots

Zexious said:


> So, I'm very ignorant to most western riding practices... But can I ask what the purpose of this is? Are they trying to get more leverage for kicking? Or...? I just don't get it...


That is not a "western riding practice." It is some kind of fad amongst some barrel racers. 

There is no point. The riders are not respected for their skills. They are the laughingstock of even the rodeo world.


----------



## SorrelHorse

I would like to remind everyone that this is not even the norm around most decent racers now. Even at my local series, the girls have started criticizing this. 

The fact is, barrel racing has gotten as bad as it has because it is EASY to get into, EASY to understand, and literally any horse can do it. It's inexpensive to enter. Almost every area has a local club because it is simple to understand - Go fast. For backyard riders and people just doing this as a hobby, it's easy to do and understand. There's thousands upon millions of barrel racers - Very few of them are actually horseman, but that is not to say the horseman do not exist among them.

The thing is, the course is very forgiving. Like in other events, you have to worry about more factors: Multiple obstacles, long patterns, cattle. You have to learn more. It takes more effort to be good. (Sorry ladies, it's my sport too, but it's true) People don't understand how to be correct because it doesn't matter to them - What matters to them is fast, and adrenaline, and that's it. SO when the adrenaline gets going, you get kicking and spurring and revving to go - You get ahead of yourself.

What people fail to realize is that this sport done correctly takes a LOT of time, slowness, and CORRECTNESS. Smoothness stops the clock. Starfishing doesn't.


----------



## beau159

Roman said:


> Fallon still starfishes today. :/


I won't argue that she doesn't still have some bad moments, but overall her riding has improved tremendously from where she started. And she's been open and honest about it.

https://youtu.be/yIGqJG5PZ8s




smrobs said:


> I honestly believe if more barrel racers strove to ride like this and have horses that responded like this, there would be nothing to complain about and they wouldn't be the laughingstock of the performance horse world (general stereotype due to all the crappy riders)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8TNTBi0v6k


I will agree that Taylor is a good rider and I like watching her and Bo run. However, she's not perfect either. This is from the video you posted. She's lucky she didn't topple over his head when he made a move on the backside. 










Now I've never ridden a NFR horse so I can't imagine the_ sheer power _they have; so not trying to say I could do any better. But even a "perfect" run will have not-so-perfect moments in it.

And if you had a different camera angle on this moment, it might almost look like starfishing. 










Not to mention the controversy from that same year (2013) from Round 10 when she was caught jerking on Bo's mouth at the end of the run. You'll see it at about 2:12 on this video. 
https://youtu.be/KclOVA02dXE

Again, not saying I could do better, and I can't imagine how crazy hot the horses are getting after running 10 times in a row in the same arena. She did what she thought she needed to do at that moment to get some control over him after the run. But that little split second captured on video really set the internet world on fire.

Even a nice record-setting run at the NFR can be picked apart. Just what happens when you ride these powerful horses at tremendous speed. Of course, no one wants to get caught starfishing or otherwise and wants to keep a good seat throughout the run. 



Zexious said:


> So, I'm very ignorant to most western riding practices... But can I ask what the purpose of this is? Are they trying to get more leverage for kicking? Or...? I just don't get it...


There is no purpose to it and it will hinder your horse's performance. But either to those who don't know better or those that are ignorant, they get caught up with the adrenaline and focus on kicking/whipping the horse; thinking that is going to somehow make them run faster. When instead, they should be taking a step back and make a conscious decision to control their cues and actually help their horse out.


----------



## enh817

SlideStop said:


> No. No. No.
> 
> Would you kick a horse that hard from the ground?! (Actually I have once, it was a fjord who was running me over, literally, for treats)
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I'm a bonafide belly-kicker. I've found getting them good in the gut, with the tip of my boot is the most effective way to deter dangerous behaviors such as kicking, biting, running me over, overly studdy behavior(though I'll aim for those guys manly bits), etc. As a woman of moderate strength, I'm not capable of doing any real harm to them in that spot, but man they sure think I have. A swift hard kick to the gut is my go-to move when I need to immediately put a stop to a dangerous behavior. 
But I would never dream of kicking one in the belly to try to encourage them to run, for all the reasons previously mentioned in the thread.


----------



## Zexious

Ok... Thanks, everyone, for answering my question so kindly and so directly. I ask these questions to learn more about a discipline that I am unfamiliar with. Maybe I should just stick to google xD

Boots--I have never seen this in english riding. That tempts me to call it a 'western riding practice,' for lack of a better term. Would you prefer 'western riding anomaly' or maybe even just 'riding anomaly' so as not to offend anyone?

Ultimately, I guess I still don't understand. If they're just caught up in the adrenaline of making their horse go faster, I wonder why we don't see it in Jumpers or other speed events? xD
Actually, I do recall seeing a few photos of something similar in pony jumpers. That's a different animal though.


----------



## beau159

The name of the game in barrel racing is to be the fastest. Winners are determined by thousandths of a second. That's not the case in English events. Yes, the jumping is timed but it doesn't get down to the thousandths of a second (to my limited experience). 

And I've seen plenty of "star fishing" in jumpers too. They may not be kicking the horse to urge them faster but I've seen some really off-balance riders that look just as bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## amberly

I am also anti-starfish.
With barrels - sometimes coming out of that barrel can be a little bumpy, but they don't need to improve the fact by kicking hard.


----------



## bsms

"_But nope, instead we see more of this type of crap_"

In the Air Force, we'd call that '*flying in loose formation*'. :shrug:


----------



## Yogiwick

This is a technique?? I thought it was just bad riding, isn't the goal to stay in the saddle? And yet is has a name.

Must say apt name!!

Some of those pictures- credit where it's due, I'm nowhere near that flexible!!

SorrelHorse unfortunately I couldn't see your pictures!


----------



## Roman

Yogiwick said:


> Some of those pictures- credit where it's due, I'm nowhere near that flexible!!


I too wonder how some can do the splits. Literally.


----------



## QHriderKE

Personally, I'm too worried about staying on my horse and setting her up to do her job to put that much effort into kicking. I've given her a little"encouragement" on the way home and once leaving a barrel cause she stalled but thats about the extent of it.

My horse runs hard enough with just my permission to run lol i just have to stay with her.


----------



## boots

IMO, you look especially balanced in the first photo, Miss QH---. And I love the smile in the second.


----------



## Yogiwick

Not aerodynamic either lol


----------



## SorrelHorse

Yogiwick said:


> This is a technique?? I thought it was just bad riding, isn't the goal to stay in the saddle? And yet is has a name.
> 
> Must say apt name!!
> 
> Some of those pictures- credit where it's due, I'm nowhere near that flexible!!
> 
> SorrelHorse unfortunately I couldn't see your pictures!


I notice that after I posted them, hmmm.

Let me try it this way:

Andrew riding Selena and "ssh"ing lol










And now the less flattering picture of me being "dashboarded" by the same mare.


----------



## CGrande15

UUUUGGGGGGHHHHHHH I hate starfishing. It is sh!tty riding pure and simple. There is NO reason to starfish other than you are kicking way too hard and flopping around like a sack of potatoes. Doing that will *NEVER* help you win. If you have a particularly great horse, they may well do _in spite of you, _but I garantee if you sit still and ride very quietly, your horse will perform better. Without exception. I understand that barrel racing is very fast and there are very tight turns and it is easy to get popped up a little if you're off balance, but if that is a regular thing, you need to slow down and work on your strength and balance in and out of the saddle before you attempt to run barrels. We expect our horses to be athletes and work hard to get them in shape (if you are a considerate human, anyway) and we need to do the same for ourselves.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

SorrelHorse said:


> I notice that after I posted them, hmmm.
> 
> Let me try it this way:
> 
> Andrew riding Selena and "ssh"ing lol
> 
> View attachment 695202
> 
> 
> 
> And now the less flattering picture of me being "dashboarded" by the same mare.
> 
> View attachment 695210


Totally not trying to sound stalker-ish :lol: , but I always love seeing pics of you and Andrew running. Look at how deep Selena dug down for him. And even though you're getting "dashboarded" (that term makes me giggle!), you still look way better than most (read "all") I see around my area.


----------



## CGrande15

Ummm...so I know Fallon has a rep for star fishing sometimes...well I saw this picture of her...I'm slightly more concerned with the fact that I can SEE THE JOINT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BIT in this picture! HOW? WHY? OMG! https://www.facebook.com/?_rdr=p#!/...22846699&set=t.100002480580843&type=3&theater


----------



## beau159

CGrande15 said:


> I'm slightly more concerned with the fact that I can SEE THE JOINT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BIT in this picture! HOW? WHY? OMG!


Looks like she is using a snaffle bit, but doesn't have any sort of keeper on it to prevent it from sliding through the mouth. She doesn't appear to be pulling overly hard, nor is the horse gaping its mouth. 

Kinda looks like a random freak thing to me. 

I guess I wouldn't panic about it.


----------



## CGrande15

beau159 said:


> Looks like she is using a snaffle bit, but doesn't have any sort of keeper on it to prevent it from sliding through the mouth. She doesn't appear to be pulling overly hard, nor is the horse gaping its mouth.
> 
> Kinda looks like a random freak thing to me.
> 
> I guess I wouldn't panic about it.


If your bit fits it should not do that under any circumstances. Accident waiting to happen.


----------



## AnrewPL

smrobs said:


> I have always believed that one of the reasons so many barrel racers have horses that are utter sh*ts in the alley is not because they "enjoy" running so much, but because that horse learns to associate being on the pattern with pain. The pain of having their face yanked off around the barrel and the pain of being gut-hooked with every stride and the pain of having their back knocked around the entire pattern. Then, having their mouth shredded when it's time to stop.
> 
> I honestly believe if more barrel racers strove to ride like this and have horses that responded like this, there would be nothing to complain about and they wouldn't be the laughingstock of the performance horse world (general stereotype due to all the crappy riders)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8TNTBi0v6k
> 
> But nope, instead we see more of this type of crap and it just makes my head hurt and my heart hurt for those poor horses.


Come on, ya gotta admit that being able to levitate above your horse like that is a pretty funky skill to develop.............I wish I could levitate.


----------



## AnrewPL

smrobs said:


> I have always believed that one of the reasons so many barrel racers have horses that are utter sh*ts in the alley is not because they "enjoy" running so much, but because that horse learns to associate being on the pattern with pain. The pain of having their face yanked off around the barrel and the pain of being gut-hooked with every stride and the pain of having their back knocked around the entire pattern. Then, having their mouth shredded when it's time to stop.
> 
> I honestly believe if more barrel racers strove to ride like this and have horses that responded like this, there would be nothing to complain about and they wouldn't be the laughingstock of the performance horse world (general stereotype due to all the crappy riders)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8TNTBi0v6k
> 
> But nope, instead we see more of this type of crap and it just makes my head hurt and my heart hurt for those poor horses.


hang on a minute, in the second picture of the first photos is that persons foot tied to their stirrup????!!!


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

AnrewPL said:


> hang on a minute, in the second picture of the first photos is that persons foot tied to their stirrup????!!!


Not uncommon at lower levels, unfortunately. :icon_rolleyes:

One thing I noticed about all the horses pictured is that none of them seem happy or enjoying their jobs, as compared to Selena in SH's pics.


----------



## enh817

AnrewPL said:


> hang on a minute, in the second picture of the first photos is that persons foot tied to their stirrup????!!!


Yes, they're rubber bands. 



DraftyAiresMum said:


> Not uncommon at lower levels, unfortunately. :icon_rolleyes:
> 
> One thing I noticed about all the horses pictured is that none of them seem happy or enjoying their jobs, as compared to Selena in SH's pics.


I've even seen it quite a bit at college rodeos :/ Perhaps if they weren't going so wild with the kicking they wouldn't have such a hard time keeping stirrups. 


I agree that those horse's don't look too happy.. some look downright terrified!


----------



## GoldenPony

AnrewPL said:


> Come on, ya gotta admit that being able to levitate above your horse like that is a pretty funky skill to develop.............I wish I could levitate.


Yeah, how do they even get air like that? Like I literally could not starfish if I wanted to.


----------



## Yogiwick

AnrewPL said:


> hang on a minute, in the second picture of the first photos is that persons foot tied to their stirrup????!!!


Well duh how else do you think it stays on??!! :icon_rolleyes:

I love that skull and crossbones pic.. suits the image.

It looks like the tack is about to fly off in all of these too..

No the horses do NOT look happy.. possibly due to those bits !

(I understand that a correction type bit has it's place and can be great at the upper levels... however I'm sure we can agree in these pictures they are being used improperly! these horses need training not bitting up. People don't understand when and how bitting up is appropriate)

All in all why barrel racing has a bad rep. There are great people with great horses out there...but they are by far overshadowed by this..  It's a shame.

I wonder how many of those people are capable of walking in on a loose rein in a snaffle and trotting the pattern? I've seen far too many youtube videos of people literally pulling their horses over on top of them. Or bouncing off due to (what is apparently called) "starfishing".. like seriously? I'm not even sure what to say about that.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

I think a lot of the problem with the barrel racing fad bits is that a lot of them have famous names attached to them.

My best friend is a disciple of Sherri Cervi. Now, I am by no means bashing Sherri Cervi as a rider or anything like that. However, when she attaches her name to bits like this: Sherry Cervi Diamond Twisted Long Gag Bit - Horse.com , you can't exactly expect only people who are skilled and have well-trained horses to buy that bit and use it. Most of them think "Oh, Sherri Cervi uses that bit, so I should too!" Heck, even in the description, it sounds like Sherri is recommending this bit to START barrel training in! :shock: My best friend had that exact bit until I made her get rid of it, and she used it to "train" her OTTB gelding and QH mare to barrel race, without either of them ever seeing a snaffle. Both of them have HUGE holes in their training, though the gelding is by far worse because he didn't even have any sort of foundation put on him after he came straight off the track to my best friend's arena. She just hopped on him, threw that bit in his mouth, and started running him. 

Then there's bits like this: Reinsman Martha Josey Start-to-Finish 5in Bit - Horse.com with another big name attached to it. How, on God's green earth, is that a good bit to start training a horse on barrels in?! 

I could go on, but I think you get my drift. I have nothing against any of the big name riders and I'm sure that the bits they put their names on have their uses (even though I can't see them), however, I think that too often people go for the bit with the big name on it without doing any research or actually trying to figure out what the horse needs, simply because it has the big name on it, so it "must" be a good bit. 

I know at the gymkhanas at my barn, they encourage the younger riders to go slow. In fact, if they're under a certain age, they are not allowed to any more than trot the pattern. Less emphasis is put on the actual time and more emphasis is put on correct riding and a willing horse.


----------



## Roman

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I think a lot of the problem with the barrel racing fad bits is that a lot of them have famous names attached to them.
> 
> My best friend is a disciple of Sherri Cervi. Now, I am by no means bashing Sherri Cervi as a rider or anything like that. However, when she attaches her name to bits like this: Sherry Cervi Diamond Twisted Long Gag Bit - Horse.com , you can't exactly expect only people who are skilled and have well-trained horses to buy that bit and use it. Most of them think "Oh, Sherri Cervi uses that bit, so I should too!" Heck, even in the description, it sounds like Sherri is recommending this bit to START barrel training in! :shock: My best friend had that exact bit until I made her get rid of it, and she used it to "train" her OTTB gelding and QH mare to barrel race, without either of them ever seeing a snaffle. Both of them have HUGE holes in their training, though the gelding is by far worse because he didn't even have any sort of foundation put on him after he came straight off the track to my best friend's arena. She just hopped on him, threw that bit in his mouth, and started running him.
> 
> Then there's bits like this: Reinsman Martha Josey Start-to-Finish 5in Bit - Horse.com with another big name attached to it. How, on God's green earth, is that a good bit to start training a horse on barrels in?!
> 
> I could go on, but I think you get my drift. I have nothing against any of the big name riders and I'm sure that the bits they put their names on have their uses (even though I can't see them), however, I think that too often people go for the bit with the big name on it without doing any research or actually trying to figure out what the horse needs, simply because it has the big name on it, so it "must" be a good bit.
> 
> I know at the gymkhanas at my barn, they encourage the younger riders to go slow. In fact, if they're under a certain age, they are not allowed to any more than trot the pattern. Less emphasis is put on the actual time and more emphasis is put on correct riding and a willing horse.


The same with Fallon. She starfishes, so everyone else thinks it's perfectly okay.


----------



## Yogiwick

Excellent for training young horses.... guaranteed to be "light"!!


----------



## AnrewPL

Yogiwick said:


> Excellent for training young horses.... guaranteed to be "light"!!


I think they are optimally designed with that leverage to help the horse use its mouth to drag its rider back down into the saddle in between each starfishing, levitation event.


----------



## QHDragon

smrobs said:


> I have always believed that one of the reasons so many barrel racers have horses that are utter sh*ts in the alley is not because they "enjoy" running so much, but because that horse learns to associate being on the pattern with pain. The pain of having their face yanked off around the barrel and the pain of being gut-hooked with every stride and the pain of having their back knocked around the entire pattern. Then, having their mouth shredded when it's time to stop.
> 
> I honestly believe if more barrel racers strove to ride like this and have horses that responded like this, there would be nothing to complain about and they wouldn't be the laughingstock of the performance horse world (general stereotype due to all the crappy riders)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8TNTBi0v6k
> 
> But nope, instead we see more of this type of crap and it just makes my head hurt and my heart hurt for those poor horses.


You would think that none of them had paid any attention in school. They are making themselves into a giant sail, instead of staying low to the saddle and making themselves as small of a burden as possible. When jockies want their mounts to slow down, they stand up. When they want them to go fast, they crouch down. Aero dynamics, people!


----------



## bsms

This comes up as one of the "best selling" bits in the western section:








​"The Million Dollar bit has won a lot of money for many riders. This bit features a 3-piece twisted wire with dog bone snaffle mouthpiece; rope noseband to balance horse in the turn which distributes even pressure on nose, corners of mouth, bars, curb and poll. Equipped with a 5” shank. This bit is one of our all-time proven favorites at the Josey Ranch. Use this bit for achieving the all-important flex you need from a well-balanced bit. Excellent bit for a horse that needs a little more control in the turns."​I really like how a good western curb bit can work, but there is no way I can imagine THAT being a "best-selling" bit without wanting to barf! Maybe a pro could have a reason for using a bit like that once in a while. Lots of things are done by top riders that I don't understand and I'm not fit to judge them. 

But as a best selling bit? And let's face it - barrel racers are not famous for light hands! It is hard to have light hands when your light butt is 12 inches out of the saddle. There has to come a point where a decent human would rather LOSE.


----------



## beau159

bsms said:


> This comes up as one of the "best selling" bits in the western section:


It's called "marketing". They slap the word "best selling" on the Million Dollar bit (and call it a million dollar bit) and you'll get people who don't know better, think that they have to have that bit because it's a best seller. 

You realize most catalogs also have a "wormers" section? Among other things like calling a Tom Thumb a snaffle bit that is great for starting young horses. There's *mis-information *all over the place. Bits are no different. 

​


bsms said:


> Maybe a pro could have a reason for using a bit like that once in a while. Lots of things are done by top riders that I don't understand and I'm not fit to judge them.


Martha Josey used her own bit on many of her horses. You use what works.


----------



## Zexious

^Totally agree. Marketing ploys appear in all sports/hobbies.


----------



## Yogiwick

O/T but yes "wormers" I am guilty of that. In fact I think it's pretty common around here though people do understand it's slang as opposed to you're actually giving them worms lol. At least it's common for me LOL!


----------



## QHDragon

Friend of mine just gave me a huge stack of old Western Horseman magazines. Pretty bummed to see this on one of their covers.










I would think as a rather well distributed magazine they would want to set a better example.


----------



## beau159

QHDragon said:


> Friend of mine just gave me a huge stack of old Western Horseman magazines. Pretty bummed to see this on one of their covers.
> 
> I would think as a rather well distributed magazine they would want to set a better example.


The "kick" is a little more exuberant than my tastes prefer, but other than that I don't see too much wrong with it. Her seat still appears to be in the saddle, and she appears quite balanced and controlled over the horse.


----------



## SorrelHorse

I don't have an issue with that picture.

Something people need to realize as well is that often, a kick that looks big in the picture isn't really that intense in reality. Sometimes it is, but as I expect in the case of that magazine cover, the legs made some distance but probably didn't throw much force. Sometimes, I admit, I will "flap" (For lack of a better term) my leg at a horse who is sensitive rather than kick or nudge because the calf encouragement is better for them than a heel or spur. And of course, adrenaline kicks in, you won't even realize you have a pretty strong leg angle there until you see the pictures.

While I don't condone starfishing I find people who always seek the little things wrong and say "Well I wouldn't do that..." to be annoying, particularly when those who criticize don't even know the sport and have never ridden it. You underestimate how easy it is to fall into stride with everyone else. The mental discipline you need is quite impressive.


----------



## Golden Horse

SorrelHorse said:


> While I don't condone starfishing I find people who always seek the little things wrong and say "Well I wouldn't do that..." to be annoying, particularly when those who criticize don't even know the sport and have never ridden it. You underestimate how easy it is to fall into stride with everyone else. The mental discipline you need is quite impressive.


And I find this an argument without a lot of validity, I don't need to barrel race to know that star fishing is bad, because what goes up must come down, and in this case straight down on the horses back, because there is no leg contact to cushion the return to earth.

Now maybe I don't appreciate all there is to other disciplines, but I know that anything done right makes you feel good to watch it, horse and rider working together in harmony is always a thing of beauty, don't care if is dressage, reining, jumping, racing, whatever... done badly with force and harshness it makes a person cringe.


----------



## SorrelHorse

I'm not disagreeing GH. I'm just saying people are really quick to criticize something when they have no idea how hard it is to really ride a barrel horse, and stay in perfect balance, not lose stirrups, not get dashboarded, not fall behind them, not get popped out of the saddle, etc. It is a very, incredibly, active riding style and it is so difficult to find the balance between "actively" riding your horse and flopping around, or riding too quietly and losing the time.

I don't make fun of the jumpers at my primarily-english barn if they fall forward on a refusal, or take an awkward jump because they didn't get a good stride, or whatever. I don't think it's nice to tell someone they're doing something wrong when they are really, truly, trying. Stuff happens, we will all be caught in unflattering situations.

And this does not apply to those people who refuse to learn to ride effectively and just allow themselves to flop around. They do not deserve my defense. However, those who are trying and just caught in a bad moment? Let's give them a break.


----------



## SlideStop

I've ridden barrel horses, just not my cup of tea. I've had my fair share of popping out of the saddle, losing a stirrup, getting left behind and the like. It's no problem if it's an honest mistake. 

But let's say it's the cover of a jumper magazine... They aren't going to publish an action shot of someone getting left behind or doing the "scared cat pose". If it were a reiner magazine they wouldn't show someone doing a sliding stop that's flopped over their horses neck. So why are they glorifying star fishing if it's a "mistake"?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Golden Horse

Exactly SlideStop, anyone who has had the pleasure of riding an athlete of a horse appreciates the power, I'm glad there were no such thing as instant cameras around the first time I rode an actual show jumper, rather than a riding school horse that jumps..it was frankly embarrassing.

The thing is someone collapsing on a horses neck in a refusal is when something has gone wrong, you watch Barrel Racing and run after run you see the same thing, and it is just not pretty. There are issues in most disciplines, and it is very very hard when your own is under the spotlight, but not admitting there is an issue means it will never change. 

Back when I was young, when Noah unloaded a couple of TB's off the Ark and they set off to race, whipping was allowed, over time they legislated on the length and weight of the whip, and the manner and times that you can use it.


----------



## Beling

I can't see the picture, and haven't read all the comments, but anyway:

I believe there was a study done about kicking a horse hard. It caused the muscles of the belly to contract, which has a sucking-back effect---in other words, it can definitely slow a horse down.


----------



## SorrelHorse

I don't think you get what I'm saying. 

I'm not denying that there is an issue. I'm just saying it's not fair to say every barrel racer who has an unflattering picture rides badly. And for the cover of that magazine, there's nothing wrong with how she is riding. Worst case scenario she kicked a bit harder than some would like, so what? She's still in the saddle, looking ahead, centered.

I do not see hardly any girls starfish where I haul to. There are a few, yes, but they are not the majority by any means. At even our "little" local races we have 200 girls minimum, when I haul to california there's plenty more. I watch almost every run, either from the stands or the back of my horse - Some are mistakes, which is easily forgiveable. Very, very few are actually negligent and simply kick the snot out of their horse. That time in the industry is going away quicker than you think.


----------



## Roman

I am learning to barrel race and ride a QH that places in the 1D-2D. I haven't been to a show with him yet, just at lessons. I've been popped out of the saddle, I've lost a stirrup. And he's a pretty fast horse. I've NEVER gone a foot out of the saddle and done the splits with my legs. My instructor, who rides him, hasn't starfished either from videos I've seen of her - and neither on her other two QHs who are a lot bigger and faster than the one I ride.


----------



## karliejaye

SorrelHorse, I agree with you on this one. Is that photo perfect? No. Does that make the rider bad? No. If I were executive editor I probably wouldn't have chosen that photo for the cover, but it isn't horrid, either. While I haven't seen magazines or catalogs putting jumping photos with riders getting jumped out of the saddle or laying on the neck from a bad peck, I have seen PLENTY of covers with unstable lower legs and pinching knees. Not the best form, but usually still of impressive, noteworthy riders, even if they are not classically "correct".

What I know about barrel racing can be condensed and fit into a thimble with room to spare. I know I don't like starfishing and yank and spin riding. Beyond that I can't really tell the different styles. I ask myself in any discipline I don't understand: "Is the rider interfering with the horse?" "Is the horse in obvious pain?" "Is the rider in obvious danger?" If the answer is no to all of the above, I give the rider and the sport the benefit of the doubt until I learn more about it.


----------



## SorrelHorse

I'm going to share a photo now of one of our local "superstars".

This girl rides a horse who is more powerful than most people could ever imagine. Any horse can barrel horse. Anyone can barrel race. Plenty of fast horses aren't strong, plenty of strong horses aren't fast - Some are smoother to ride than others, some are just hell to hang on to.

This horse is BIG, STRONG, AND FAST. To look at this picture, from the front angle, it probably would look like she is starfishing - But look at that horse's body. He is literally slongshotting himself forward with every muscle he possesses, every ounce of energy he has. Those front legs of his are reaching as far as he can get them and that back end is driving as hard as he can.

Until someone has ridden a horse like THIS, they have no idea how hard it really is. I've personally owned and seasoned four seriously competitive horses in my lifetime - And competed on dozens of others for clients - Maybe one, or two, have been like this. One or two out of dozens and dozens of horses, all fast, all competitive. It's hard to imagine or explain to someone how that feels. My current two mares are midgets compared to this gelding, and standing next to him he literally radiates power. Now THAT'S what the epitome of a barrel horse really is. Nobody will ever say negative things to this girl after seeing how that horse goes.


----------



## Roman

So just because a horse is powerful and fast, it makes it right to kick that hard? Hm..


----------



## SorrelHorse

I think you missed the point again.

If you can sit like a perfect little equitation rider, be fast, ride a strong horse, and clock - I'd love to see it.

I'm just saying it's not right to be totally judgmental and rude to people when many have no idea what it takes. If you read my previous posts, you'll see what my opinion is - And if you think that picture is kicking hard, you're probably delusional. 

Look at this run. How many people on here could honestly say they could stick with this mare? Dance N Spin A Lena - One of the most amazing horses I have ever had the pleasure of watching run. There's not a horse alive who can turn quicker than this mare, and not one who can slingshot out like that. If you mean to tell me you could ride THIS without ever having a bad moment, hauling to a race every weekend, on any sort of ground, in any circumstance - I'm more than willing to let you judge whoever you'd like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UjmbsWdu2M


----------



## karliejaye

I *think* what looks like kicking is sometimes (not all the time) just the rider putting leg on in a rhythm and getting popped out of the saddle by the tremendous force of the horse. This is regarding the well balanced riders who just have their legs flung out, NOT the ones who look completely hunched and hovering over the horses' backs out of balance. I think there are 2 very different phenomena happening and they shouldn't be grouped together. 

But again, take that with a grain of salt, as I said before, my barrel knowledge is minimal.


----------



## Roman

I can totally understand being popped out of the saddle, but starfishing? Majority of the time is NOT a mistake. Her kicking, that was something SHE did, not what the horse MADE her do.


----------



## SorrelHorse

karliejaye said:


> I *think* what looks like kicking is sometimes (not all the time) just the rider putting leg on in a rhythm and getting popped out of the saddle by the tremendous force of the horse. This is regarding the well balanced riders who just have their legs flung out, NOT the ones who look completely hunched and hovering over the horses' backs out of balance. I think there are 2 very different phenomena happening and they shouldn't be grouped together.
> 
> But again, take that with a grain of salt, as I said before, my barrel knowledge is minimal.


Yes, this is what I am trying to get across. And not everyone who is elevated necessarily is also coming down hard on the back. I have seen just as many horses ride to meet their riders again, and those who put weight in their stirrups to soften themselves, and many less who actually flop around on the horse as well.


----------



## bsms

"_Until someone has ridden a horse like THIS, they have no idea how hard it really is._"








​ 
I'm sure that is true. I'm not sure that justifies her spreading her legs, which seems like an odd way of sticking on an accelerating horse. Even if being thrown up out of the saddle, I know of no reason why spreading the legs would help.

I traded Mia for Bandit in May. By October, it has become obvious that a number of things I did riding her were defensive. But here is the painful part:

What I was doing was NOT the best way to stay on a horse, including Mia. I started doing it because I was green and needed to stay on to stay alive. But those habits were counterproductive to staying on, let alone to riding well.

Bandit, being spooky at times but fundamentally a calmer horse, is allowing me to experiment - and what I'm doing now is both closer to what the experts say to do AND a more secure seat. It makes it easier to stay on, not harder - but I had a bad habit (developed innocently enough) that I justified rather than correct.

I'm a very eccentric rider, and I've developed a love for Arabians, who are not in the same league for acceleration as a good QH. Slender 800 lb Bandit sure isn't! (see my avatar) I can't point fingers at anyone, and won't. But I do think the rider has picked up a habit that is not helping her, but hindering her. And I say that as someone who has very reluctantly concluded I did the same thing during my years riding Mia.

But if there is a reason holding your legs out makes it easier to stay on a fast accelerating horse, I'd love to hear it!

BTW - Folks could have taken pictures of me on Bandit today and found plenty to criticize - but no one would put ME on the cover of a magazine! And for that, we all are grateful.


----------



## karliejaye

Roman said:


> I can totally understand being popped out of the saddle, but starfishing? Majority of the time is NOT a mistake. Her kicking, that was something SHE did, not what the horse MADE her do.


I think it's a simple disagreement about where a little pop out of the saddle ends and starfishing begins. Kind of like in jumpers, it is a fine line between a long release and laying flat out on the horse's neck. It comes down to body control to stop yourself from getting out of balance in a very active, powerful sport (in both cases).


----------



## SorrelHorse

Roman said:


> I can totally understand being popped out of the saddle, but starfishing? Majority of the time is NOT a mistake. Her kicking, that was something SHE did, not what the horse MADE her do.


Please quote me anywhere I advocated for purposeful starfishing and excessive kicking.

You'd be surprised what a horse can make you do. Sometimes it's all you can do just to stay forward so you don't fall behind and drag that horse down - Which to me, is WAY worse than starfishing. Maybe not to you, but I've seen the repercussions of both and I'd rather see someone getting forward and being a little popped out than someone falling behind and yanking the horse's face up, and falling on the lower part of their back while they're trying to run. 

Of course ideally we'd all run our patterns and never have to move or make decisions at all - We'd all just run sitting slightly forward, heels down, eyes up, hands soft, body centered, back straight, leg steady, butt in the saddle and it would just be a horse race. Unfortunately, that's not how the world works.


----------



## SorrelHorse

bsms said:


> "_Until someone has ridden a horse like THIS, they have no idea how hard it really is._"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> I'm sure that is true. I'm not sure that justifies her spreading her legs, which seems like an odd way of sticking on an accelerating horse. Even if being thrown up out of the saddle, I know of no reason why spreading the legs would help.
> 
> I traded Mia for Bandit in May. By October, it has become obvious that a number of things I did riding her were defensive. But here is the painful part:
> 
> What I was doing was NOT the best way to stay on a horse, including Mia. I started doing it because I was green and needed to stay on to stay alive. But those habits were counterproductive to staying on, let alone to riding well.
> 
> Bandit, being spooky at times but fundamentally a calmer horse, is allowing me to experiment - and what I'm doing now is both closer to what the experts say to do AND a more secure seat. It makes it easier to stay on, not harder - but I had a bad habit (developed innocently enough) that I justified rather than correct.
> 
> I'm a very eccentric rider, and I've developed a love for Arabians, who are not in the same league for acceleration as a good QH. Slender 800 lb Bandit sure isn't! I can't point fingers at anyone, and won't. But I do think the rider has picked up a habit that is not helping her, but hindering her. And I say that as someone who has very reluctantly concluded I did the same thing during my years riding Mia.
> 
> But if there is a reason holding your legs out makes it easier to stay on a fast accelerating horse, I'd love to hear it!
> 
> BTW - Folks could have taken pictures of me on Bandit today and found plenty to criticize - but no one would put ME on the cover of a magazine! And for that, we all are grateful.


I don't think I was saying that it did help?

I strongly disagree though, bsms, because as someone has ridden a horse like this as well as quote on quote "regular" horses - It is an insane amount of difference that no one can truly appreciate until they've done it. Even my Selena can't hold a candle in heaven to some of them.


----------



## bsms

^^ But if it doesn't help, then "understanding it" is not the answer. Getting it right is the answer. I understand why I did things that were wrong, but they were still wrong. I had a less secure seat because I was trying to get security the wrong way.

"_Sometimes it's all you can do just to stay forward so you don't fall behind and drag that horse down - Which to me, is WAY worse than starfishing._"

False dilemma. I doubt there is ever a choice between falling behind and starfishing. Unless there is a reason that air between you and the horse helps? -  

And since I'm not a barrelracer and I don't ride very powerful quarter horses, I'm asking. Either it helps (if so, why?) or doesn't help (thus neutral or harmful).


----------



## SorrelHorse

bsms said:


> ^^ But if it doesn't help, then "understanding it" is not the answer. Getting it right is the answer. I understand why I did things that were wrong, but they were still wrong.
> 
> "_Sometimes it's all you can do just to stay forward so you don't fall behind and drag that horse down - Which to me, is WAY worse than starfishing._"
> 
> False dilemma. I doubt there is ever a choice between falling behind and starfishing. Unless there is a reason that air between you and the horse helps? -
> 
> And since I'm not a barrelracer and I don't ride very powerful quarter horses, I'm asking. Either it helps (if so, why?) or doesn't help (thus neutral or harmful).


No, it does not help, but the point I'm trying to make is attempting to be critical of something many people are not that familiar with or have a feel of, does not make for a productive conversation.

Of course many of us could ride better. Never did I advocate the examples I have given are perfect, but often when you are moving that fast and have to think and react, the choice is either just get up there with your horse and let what happen, happen - Or fall behind.

What "happens" when you have to make that difficult choice depends on you, what style your horse is, where you were at, and about a million other things.

Many times a barrel racer will make a decision to give the power to the horse. I have done this several times. It is a matter of pitching your horse's head back to them, getting yourself up and forward in the "running" position, and after that - Pretty much just hoping. In that picture on big ol ****** there, that is what she is doing. She is giving control back to him. Did she intend to pop out and put her feet out? Of course not. But do you honestly think she's sitting there going "Well, I have to keep my butt attached to the saddle at all times, and my legs should be in, and my heels down, and I need to give him his head, and I need to stay forward - " ? Of course she wasn't. She was trying to dot he best she could with what she had, which was a powerful, seasoned horse who she trusted and who knew his job well enough to take himself to the end of the pattern. 

Occasionally, using this last resort tactic will end you up in an unflattering position. But SO WHAT? One run out of hundreds you will make on that horse, one times your riding a more powerful horse than any average rider could even begin to imagine, and you get your legs out a bit and you're popped out. So what? 

I just think it's amazing how many people are willing to throw away all the amazing things these human and equine athletes do together, because one time they saw them popped out of the saddle.

And emphasizing again, because I apparently have to, no one here is advocating for deliberate starfishing. Those people who go in and deliberately kick the snot out of their horses and lose their balance is NOT who I'm talking about and not even remotely comparable to a seasoned horsewoman making a choice for her horse.


----------



## Golden Horse

Roman said:


> I can totally understand being popped out of the saddle, but starfishing? Majority of the time is NOT a mistake. Her kicking, that was something SHE did, not what the horse MADE her do.


Exactly, there is a difference, I to can understand getting popped out of the tack, you can see it happening with good quiet riders, but the amount of pics you see online with the rider a couple of feet out of the saddle, it isn't just a fraction of a moment thing for a lot of riders, because I don't believe that there are that many photographers grabbing an unfortunate moment in time.


----------



## bsms

SorrelHorse said:


> ...In that picture on big ol ****** there, that is what she is doing. She is giving control back to him. Did she intend to pop out and put her feet out? Of course not. But do you honestly think she's sitting there going "Well, I have to keep my butt attached to the saddle at all times, and my legs should be in, and my heels down, and I need to give him his head, and I need to stay forward - " ? Of course she wasn't...


I doubt she is thinking about proper equitation, any more than I do if my horse does something weird. But that is what practice is about. If my horse spins and jumps into a bolt, my legs NEED to be next to my horse. I won't have time to think it, so I need to train myself to do it without thinking.

And if you want to stay with a horse jumping forward, you are better off with your legs close to your horse. I can't think of any reason why I would pry my legs apart when the horse is accelerating.

If there is no good reason, then it is bad equitation - equitation with a harmful effect on riding. It doesn't make her a rotten person any more than I'm a rotten person if I grab the horn when my horse spins - but if I do that, I am riding below my potential.

I cannot get better unless I stop making excuses. Neither can anyone else. And if bad equitation is put on a magazine cover, then it is likely to be imitated.


----------



## beau159

Roman said:


> So just because a horse is powerful and fast, it makes it right to kick that hard? Hm..


What exactly are you referring to? Starfishing? Or this....











In all honestly, most of these types of pictures you see (like this one), the kick is NOT that big. A picture is just a moment in time.




bsms said:


> I'm sure that is true. I'm not sure that justifies her spreading her legs, which seems like an odd way of sticking on an accelerating horse. Even if being thrown up out of the saddle, I know of no reason why spreading the legs would help.


?? How else are you going to bump your horse's sides to encourage them to hustle? Of course you have to "spread your legs" to do so. She's preparing herself to encourage the horse to hustle on home. 



bsms said:


> And since I'm not a barrelracer and I don't ride very powerful quarter horses, I'm asking. Either it helps (if so, why?) or doesn't help (thus neutral or harmful).


I guarantee that if we took a bunch of pictures of you riding Mia, we are going to find unflattering poses in some of them. 

It's easy for someone to look at _one_ picture and_ one_ unflattering post and assume that ALL the riding you do must be bad.

Barrels runs happen in under 20 seconds. Each barrel turn is broken down into fewer seconds. You have split seconds to decide when to rate your horse, place your legs, pick your point to look at, keep yourself cetered in the saddle, quickly correct your horse on the backside of the turn, look to your next axis point, etc etc etc. All the while trying to stay centered and balanced on the 1,000+ pound animal surging underneath you. 

Barrel racing is a partnership. Both the rider and the horse have a mind of their own and make decisions on their own. While the horse and rider usually have a good feel of each other, it is completely ridiculous to think they'd be 100% in-sync 100% of the time. 

There's going to be moments when I don't lean forward soon enough for when my horse takes off. That's goign to cause me to pop up. 

There's going to be moments when I don't sit soon enough to rate for the turn and my horse rates when he knows he supposed to rate, and I get popped up and have to try to fix it mid-turn. 

There's going to be plenty of unflattering pictures where I wish I had my legs in a better spot, or my seat in a better spot, or my hands, or whatever. 

But people are getting too nitpicky about a SINGLE PICTURE they see of a barrel racer. And I am NOT talking about starfishing. I am talking about things like this:

My feet are too far behind me. 









Actually, not a darn thing wrong with this picture (except maybe for the down pour that occurred the night before!). Some might say I'm kicking too hard for where my legs are, but I can assure you, I'm not.










My heels aren't down and my upper body isn't centered. 










Here I should be up in the saddle more. I'm getting "left behind" when he took off. 











Should also be "up" in my saddle more, and we left the 2nd barrel wide. 











Yup, got popped up out of the saddle here and got out of sync with him, when we left the 3rd barrel. 











Now if people saw only this last picture of me and didn't know anything about me, they'd assume I was a star-fisher and a horrible rider and that I don't know what I am doing. 

This is my point, and I think the point SH is trying to make: If you have not ridden a barrel horse at a fast pace and powerful surge, you have no clue how HARD it is to do everything right all the time. 

You can't judge a person from one bad picture.

I don't deny that there ARE plenty of bad riders out there in the barrel racing industry, but in my area, it is certainly not the norm. And there is never an excuse or reason for star-fishing. But there's plenty of pictures that AREN'T star-fishing that people seem to degrade all the same.


----------



## BreezylBeezyl

I haven't read this whole thread but here's my opinion:

I'm not a barrel racer and neither is my horse, but we did some Gymkhana last spring and got very close to placing in the barrels (4th); nothing fancy, just a local open show. My horse responded well to longer-than-normal squeezes with my heels and an energetic voice. No starfishing required. I want you to keep in mind this was our first ever barrel race as well.

I have no idea why people do this. It's totally unnecessary in my opinion. I bet if they try to run a pattern without it, they would be pleasantly surprised on how well their horse responds to (gasp) normal cues from the leg and voice.

Here are some pictures. You can see my legs are almost equitation-still, yet my horse nearly placed... What's that about?


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Roman said:


> So just because a horse is powerful and fast, it makes it right to kick that hard? Hm..


It really doesn't look like she's kicking THAT hard. :icon_rolleyes: Seriously, I think I've kicked my gelding harder than that just trying to unstick his feet and make him walk forward. :lol:

I agree that there is a huge difference between a barrel horse and the horses most of us ride. My best friend's QH mare could be considered a barrel horse (she's relatively well-trained on barrels). The difference between riding her, at 14.3hh and 1200lbs, and riding my big draft cross gelding, at 17hh and 1600lbs, is amazing. It's the difference between a Porsche and a diesel rig...even at a walk. She exudes speed, agility, and power (she'd also make a kick *** roping horse). He is just plain powerful, but in a different way. At my level of riding right now, I doubt I could even begin to stay on her if she was flat-out on the pattern. Either that or I'd end up looking like a lot of the pictures posted on this thread. :lol: With him, even with as novice as I am, he'd be easy to keep up with, even if I could get him to go flat-out. :lol:

My point is, looking at a pic and judging that the person in the pic is a bad rider or is doing something to harm/hinder the horse is asinine at best. I have pics of me riding my gelding where it looks like I am HAULING on his mouth, when I really am not hardly in his mouth at all.


----------



## beau159

WillowNightwind said:


> I'm not a barrel racer and neither is my horse, but we did some Gymkhana last spring and got very close to placing in the barrels (4th); nothing fancy, just a local open show. My horse responded well to longer-than-normal squeezes with my heels and an energetic voice. No starfishing required. I want you to keep in mind this was our first ever barrel race as well.
> 
> I have no idea why people do this. It's totally unnecessary in my opinion. I bet if they try to run a pattern without it, they would be pleasantly surprised on how well their horse responds to (gasp) normal cues from the leg and voice.
> 
> Here are some pictures. You can see my legs are almost equitation-still, yet my horse nearly placed... What's that about?


I give you a sincere congratulations for trying something new with your horse and having fun with it. Good for you!

_However_ .... if you have a finished barrel horse that is top notch and powerful, you sure are not going to ride as you described. Actually, if I really look closely at your pictures, it looks like you've got your seat OUT of the saddle (like you may have gotten popped out of it), and your heels are actually up in the middle photo. If you add a powerful horse underneath you and you try to ride like that, well, you'll get lost out the back door. 

Truly not meaning this post as a way to criticize you. Not at all! But this is what I mean where people see pictures of an unflattering position for a barrel racer (again, NOT talking about starfishing) yet they have no clue how difficult it is to ride a GOOD barrel horse. 

Maybe because the good riders make it look so easy?
https://youtu.be/6FoEoFliIuI


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

beau159 said:


> Maybe because the good riders make it look so easy?
> https://youtu.be/6FoEoFliIuI


Hot dang! That is one POWERHOUSE of a horse! :eek_color:


----------



## SorrelHorse

Never get tired of watching Lisa run Louie, what an honest horse he is.


----------



## karliejaye

Beau, thank you for posting photos of yourself in not-the-best positions and providing explanations. I found that very educational as a non-barrel rider and feel I have a little bit better idea of what that ride might feel like in relation to polo and jumping (the two fast sports I do have experience with).


----------



## beau159

karliejaye said:


> Beau, thank you for posting photos of yourself in not-the-best positions and providing explanations. I found that very educational as a non-barrel rider and feel I have a little bit better idea of what that ride might feel like in relation to polo and jumping (the two fast sports I do have experience with).


No problem. 

I do truly try my best, but I'm not perfect. I'll make timing errors and judgement mistakes. It's the name-of-the-game when you are on powerful horses and winners are determined by thousanths of a second. Thankfully, my horse is such a good boy that he still tries hard for the both of us. 

Granted, we are not at the level of Lisa and Louie, but it still amazes me sometimes of my horse's sheer power. 

This is pole bending, instead of barrel racing, and I am not proud of my body position in the picture. I got thrown forward a bit in the saddle, causing my heels to come up too. I should be sitting down more centered in the saddle. But gosh darn does my horse look amazing! :loveshower: He pulled a serious athletic move on the backside of that pole turn and it was _incredible_. 

(For those that don't know, you literally make a 180-degree turn on the backside of the pole, completely changing direction while at a run.) 

Sadly, I just didn't quite keep up with his athletisicm and the picture reflects that! Does that make me a bad rider? No. Just makes me human.


----------



## stevenson

it looks like they do not know how to ride. How do the expect the horse to balance properly when they do that ?


----------



## QHDragon

There is a big difference between bumping your horse to go fast, and spreading your legs like you are attempting the splits. The latter is unacceptable in my mind. Horses are sensitive enough to feel a fly land on them, why do you think it is okay to kick the crap out of their sides?! 

I have ridden barrels on two horses. I never got seriously into it because both horses were incredibly powerful and knew their jobs whether I stayed on or not. It scared me a bit. However, I wasn't riding like any of these people, and yes I was having to fight to keep my butt in the saddle at times.


----------



## beau159

QHDragon said:


> horses were incredibly powerful
> ......
> and yes I was having to fight to keep my butt in the saddle at times.


If you had a bunch of photos from those times you ran barrels, some of the camera angles (I'll bet) would make it look like you were starfishing. 

But of course, you weren't doing so on purpose. You were just riding a powerful horse and trying to keep up!

That's what I mean. Not ALL the bad pictures you see are of a person intentionally trying to kick the crub out of their horse. Might have just gotten caught in a bad moment. 

Yes. There ARE starfishers out there. No doubt about it. And I don't agree with it one bit. 

Yet we see the bad pictures of people who weren't starfishing on purpose (just got popped up from a powerful horse), and you'll get comments like this:



stevenson said:


> it looks like they do not know how to ride. How do the expect the horse to balance properly when they do that ?



Just trying to get people to not ALWAYS assume that a person is a starfisher, just because they see a bad picture of the person. 

Or pictures that appear to be starfishing to the untrained eye (like the Western Horseman cover that was talked about) but really isn't starfishing.


----------



## bsms

"(I'll bet) would make it look like you were starfishing."

No one is saying a person never gets popped out of the saddle. Happens to me with disturbing regularity, and I'm not on a powerful horse! But then, when I air out my crotch, I'm not also spreading my legs so far apart that (as a 57 year old guy) I'd need a trip to the hospital to repair the damage.

This, to me, does NOT look at all like starfishing:










Not even remotely. You've briefly lost contact in the leg, but you are also obviously about to get it back. I do that deliberately at times - mostly in faster turns, and I don't do "barrel-racing fast" turns. Do it on one side with Bandit at times trying to correct his balance...he has something funky going on with one shoulder. He's picked up some odd ways of moving in his previous life.

No one is saying anyone who gets a bit of air time is a horrible rider. I do think getting air time is undesirable in most cases, and I do think spreading one's legs as far apart as possible is inefficient riding. When I do something wrong riding - and I've lots of practice at making errors - I can excuse it (my normal first reaction) or I can try to correct it. Flying in close formation with your horse is not a goal anyone should strive for. IMHO.

BTW - moving the leg out a little seems to give me better contact with the stirrup when riding with a long leg. Arguably, spreading the legs a little could be a way of keeping one's stirrups without pulling them back behind you or pointing the toe down. I don't seem to get the same result when using an English saddle, but I tend to ride with a shorter stirrup English than western. I don't know if that is a factor. Not a barrel racer. But it seems like a reason why someone who is getting popped out of the saddle, particularly with a sharp turn, might do something like that. I don't know - just speculating. I like my western stirrups adjusted to meet the bottom of my heel, not the bottom of my ankle.


----------



## Golden Horse

Of we are talking about powerful horses and getting popped out of teh tack, I guess this is powerful










And even though these guys are marked partly on leg movement you see them with butt in the saddle, legs moving back and fore along the horse.

Rather than this










Which to be honest does not look like someone being popped out of the tack by a powerful horse. 

No one is saying all barrel racers are bad, but for some reason there are those who seem to think that this is good form. Again saying it doesn't exist is not helping the sport, most of us who ride can look and tell the difference between someone who has been 'bumped' and those who are just riding poorly...not saying that they are bad riders, but good riders can get bad habits.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

GH, I get what you're saying and I agree with you. However, I think you're missing the point that beau and SH are trying to make. Yes, there are starfishers. No one is arguing that point. What is up for debate is when getting popped out of the tack by a powerful horse crosses that line and becomes starfishing. 

In the example of the girl riding the grey a page or two ago, several people commented that she looked like her legs were too far off the horse and that she must not be a very good rider. My response to that would be "Look at how powerful that horse is and REALLY look at how far her leg is off the horse." I have literally had to kick my gelding harder than that just to unstick his feet and get him moving forward. Does that make me a bad rider? If not, does that make her a bad rider, simply by dent of being a barrel racer? 

Also, comparing saddle bronc riders to barrel racers is a bit like comparing apples to oranges. The only thing they have in common is that they're both on a horse. My husband rode bareback broncs in high school. I've talked to him about how he rode broncs in an effort to determine what poor habits we might encounter once he starts taking riding lessons (his idea, not mine). On a bronc, you have a hold of that rope to their halter, which they can hold onto and pull with as much force as they need to, helping to keep them balanced. Reefing on your horse's face in similar fashion while riding is generally frowned upon in the wider horse riding community. The movement is also radically different. Broncs are a lot of vertical movement and butt flying up in the air. Barrel racers are more torque and forward movement.


----------



## beau159

bsms said:


> ​
> I'm not sure that justifies her spreading her legs, which seems like an odd way of sticking on an accelerating horse. Even if being thrown up out of the saddle, I know of no reason why spreading the legs would help.





bsms said:


> This, to me, does NOT look at all like starfishing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not even remotely. You've briefly lost contact in the leg, but you are also obviously about to get it back. I do that deliberately at times - mostly in faster turns, and I don't do "barrel-racing fast" turns. Do it on one side with Bandit at times trying to correct his balance...he has something funky going on with one shoulder. He's picked up some odd ways of moving in his previous life.


Well now you've really got me confused because you are contradicting yourself. Unless I am somehow mis-understanding you.

I see two very identical pictures. You say I'm fine, but the other rider is doing a poor job?

This is exactly what I am talking about.


----------



## Golden Horse

I get that they are not at all the same, of course I do, but my point was the thing about a powerful horse, there are lost of different powerful horses, heck the power of a Warmbloods trot throws me out of the saddle. Telling us we don't know what a powerful horse is because we don't barrel race, so we can't understand, is the point I was making.

I don't think anyone believes all barrel racers are Starfishers, that is as crazy as believing they don't exist that was my point...

LOL, need to cross reference the 'spooking thread' with the explanation of how riding a bucking horse is different.


----------



## SorrelHorse

Telling me a warmbloods trot is comparable to a barrel horse launching himself forward is laughable.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude to you, I understand that warmbloods are powerful as well and the ones I have ridden with great favor this past year at my new barn have indeed been strong - But to compare that, just doesn't make any sense.

Quarter Horses can launch themselves and sprint faster than any other breed. That's not me being a pretentious QH owner, that's fact. Their muscles have the "twitch" that allows them to move their legs faster and take more strides than another horse might. They can reach top speed from a practical standstill - Others simply can't. 

American Quarter Horse-Racing Basics

Kentucky Quarter Horse Association

(There's plenty of other literature I can send you, these are just the first two off a brief search. I'm not on my home computer today)

THAT is the kind of power I'm talking about. You just can't compare it to something else. Particularly, when you take off across that line - And suddenly, within a hundredth of a second, your horse slams himself into a rate, takes to the ground so hard - It's the equivalent of slamming on the breaks at freeway speed in your car. Have you ridden many theme park rides? Those ones where you spin so hard you get thrown to the outside and you feel like it's all you can do not to get whiplash and crack your neck? You do that, then suddenly that powerhouse of a sprinter is throwing himself forward again. That happens three times in a run. I've felt my spine crack on occasion on the backside, and oh boy did that hurt. 

I think the only thing I would find comparable would be those who show in the NRCHA - They get the same power going down the fence.

Comparing it to a trot though, on any horse, is just not right. I'm not saying the trot isn't strong, I'm not saying you don't feel power from that horse you refer to, but it's definitely NOT the same thing.


----------



## bsms

beau159 said:


> Well now you've really got me confused because you are contradicting yourself. Unless I am somehow mis-understanding you...


It is a matter of degree, and BOTH pictures lack efficiency in riding. But yes, I do see two different pictures. Maybe I wouldn't if I saw video. But my point is that neither is desirable, although it may sometimes happen.

But it never seems to happen with jockeys, some of whom ride very powerful QHs in races. And every barrel racer who runs a powerful horse fast around the barrels without doing the splits is proof it CAN be done.

In any case, if it is accidental, then...well, it is an accident. I have "accidents" every ride, and my horse is a slender 800 lb fellow. My problem? I sometimes suck as a rider. Oh well. No excuses there. Welcome to the world of a stiff old guy who took up riding at 50 and who has no aptitude for it.

When it is intentional, it is...well, intentional AND poor riding. And when it is plastered all over magazines, it is a bad influence on impressionable riders. It seems magazines ought to encourage good riding, not bad but 'spectacular' pictures.


----------



## SorrelHorse

Yeah because there's absolutely no difference between how a jockey rides and how a barrel racer does.



















It's apples to oranges again. Also I have seen jockeys who are exclusively jockeys try and ride sitting like like a regular rider would - It's not pretty. And if they tried to turn and hang on to a horse like that, they'd be off the side. Some of them are very proficient in riding multiple ways, some are only good at doing their job. Sort of like barrel racers. Funny how that works.


----------



## beau159

bsms said:


> But it never seems to happen with jockeys, some of whom ride very powerful QHs in races. And every barrel racer who runs a powerful horse fast around the barrels without doing the splits is proof it CAN be done.


You can't really compare riding a racehorse to riding a barrel horse. 

Racehorses have 1 burst of speed out of the gate, and then the maintain that speed all along the rest of the race. There are no sharp turns. There are no huge bursts of acceleration again. 

Barrel racing has 3 sharp turns, and 3 instances where you accelerate. (4 if you count the start of the run)

The physics are just not the same. 


What magazines do you see that promote bad riding? As already discussed, that Western Horseman cover photo is not starfishing.


----------



## Beling

I think in many cases it's a habit learned early.

Have you ever watched the youngest riders? Even lead-line barrels: they will often be twirling their legs like little windmills. Can't help but laugh, and so cute! But alas, it IS a bad way to learn.


----------



## sarahfromsc

Well, it is a shame it is called starfishing. Starfish are beautiful creatures; some of those pictures, not pretty.


----------



## Roman

This pic has gotten a lot of publicity. But it's a shame to see many of the comments to people you dislike the picture full of hatred, curse words, etc. I'd hate to be the Fallon fan that spreads hate towards others that disagree with her.


----------



## SorrelHorse

Can't see the pic unfortunately.


----------



## bsms

"Yeah because there's absolutely no difference between how a jockey rides and how a barrel racer does."

That is kind of the point - there IS a difference. Amazing that a jockey can manage the initial acceleration without doing the splits, and doesn't need to come out of the saddle or starfish to get the most effort out of the horse.

Below is a video of barrel racing. No starfishing in them that I see. And while they do get popped out of the saddle at times, it is because of the violent change of motion at the barrel - not on the straight. In fact, they are doing it the way it seems it ought to be done. Amazing riding, IMHO. I can easily see how someone might not equal it, but I don't see why folks should not try - or even consider trying to be a positive. And they seem to be getting some pretty good times.


----------



## Roman

SorrelHorse said:


> Can't see the pic unfortunately.


Well it worked for a minute. Let me get another link.


----------



## SorrelHorse

Roman said:


> Well it worked for a minute. Let me get another link.


Oh yeah I've seen that one.

I'm not a huge Fallon fan. She doesn't put the finesse on one that I'd like and she doesn't ride as well as I'd like, but she's got a natural energy that matches her horses natural energy and that seems to work for her.


----------



## SlideStop

What is that outfit :shock:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

SlideStop said:


> What is that outfit :shock:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And the face?! :shock: :lol:


----------



## Smilie

smrobs said:


> I have always believed that one of the reasons so many barrel racers have horses that are utter sh*ts in the alley is not because they "enjoy" running so much, but because that horse learns to associate being on the pattern with pain. The pain of having their face yanked off around the barrel and the pain of being gut-hooked with every stride and the pain of having their back knocked around the entire pattern. Then, having their mouth shredded when it's time to stop.
> 
> I honestly believe if more barrel racers strove to ride like this and have horses that responded like this, there would be nothing to complain about and they wouldn't be the laughingstock of the performance horse world (general stereotype due to all the crappy riders)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8TNTBi0v6k
> 
> But nope, instead we see more of this type of crap and it just makes my head hurt and my heart hurt for those poor horses.



Agree, and why, when the local gymkana crew rolled in , after the judged part of the local show, the comment was often heard:

'here comes the jerk and spur crowd' !

I agree that those horses rearing outside of the arena, not wanting to go in for a run, are reacting to anticipated pain

My hat is off to those games people that actually run a horse out of body control, versus jerking and spurring them around


----------



## beau159

What's the difference between these two pictures? (besides one being really blurry....)

I see two riders who, some might call, are starfishing. 

I guess this is the point that I am trying to make. You see ONE picture and you make an assumption. 




bsms said:


> Below is a video of barrel racing. No starfishing in them that I see. And while they do get popped out of the saddle at times, it is because of the violent change of motion at the barrel - not on the straight.


While I agree 100% with you that there are some very, very nice runs in the link you posted, and I have nothing but great respect for those amazing ladies and horses that make it to the NFR each year. But.... anyone is able to "pick apart" one split second photograph and label someone as being a starfisher. You'll always be able to find a "starfish" moment in a barrel run, if your camera angle and timing is _just right. _

That's where I got my blurry picture above; from the video you posted. That we just said everyone made really good runs (and they did). 

Without seeing the video, someone could share that picture and trash talk the rider for being a star-fisher. But they didn't see the video. All they see is that fraction of a second in time. You can't judge an entire run that way.

Referring to Fallon's picture posted above, I agree that she can get off-balance in the saddle at times. But I'd like to see the run that went with this photograph. I'll bet that moment in time that was captured by the picture looks a heck of a lot different when you see the video in motion. 

You know how they say the camera adds 10 pounds? I think the camera adds inches in the air between your rump and the saddle too.


----------



## beau159

Ah, well looky here. I found it. 
Round 8 of the barrels last year. 
Her run starts at about 7:24 into the video. She got "popped" a little leaving both the 2nd and 3rd barrel, and she leaned a bit on the 3rd barrel, but it sure doesn't look near as bad as the picture portrays. Overall, was a nice run, I think (personally).

https://youtu.be/eF8VncFZWBs


----------



## beau159

bsms said:


> That is kind of the point - there IS a difference. Amazing that a jockey can manage the initial acceleration without doing the splits, and doesn't need to come out of the saddle or starfish to get the most effort out of the horse.


#1 a jockey CAN'T do the splits because of the insanely short stirrups they ride with. They'd have to do "splits" at the knees, and last time I checked, knees don't bend in that direction. 

#2 I see plenty of jockeys who are thrown off balance when the horse takes off. Heck, rider #2 in the green shirt in the middle looks like he's going to fall off the left side of the horse.


----------



## bsms

^^ Don't see any of them doing the splits. What has been done - ride a fully accelerating QH without doing the splits or kicking them incessantly - can be done. If one wants.

Per the video - I did not say every second was flawless. But most of the out of the saddle time was going around the barrel, which I fully understand. Getting popped out during violent maneuvering is totally understandable. Flapping your legs like chicken wings to get your horse to go faster...not so much so. Guess we'll just disagree.


----------



## beau159

But that's what I mean. By looking at a picture, how do you tell if they are incessantly kicking their horse or if they just got popped up?

Can't. Not without seeing a video.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AnrewPL

so what exactly is the debate here about? Can there be any question about the people in those pictures that Smrobs posted about them doing that rubbish either deliberately or through bad riding? Some of them are close to two feet out of the saddle; and the fact of some of them strapping their feet to the stirrups is enough to write them off as pathetic as far as I'm concerned; I've never seen a saddle bronc rider do that, can anyone seriously say that a barrel racer faces more explosive power from their horse than a saddle bronc rider? . And surely no one can watch any of those videos and deny that they have their legs constantly flapping on their horse's sides. Sure, some of them may just get "popped out of the saddle", OK, so fair enough, but can there be any denial that at least some of them 1) actually think that that "starfishing" silliness is great and 2) that there are not other disciplines that people ride horse moving with as much, if not more, power coming out in just as much an explosive manner, and don't seem to be getting "popped out of the saddle" and doing the splits close to two feet from the saddle like barrel racers, or at least some of them, seem to think is the way to ride?


----------



## enh817

SlideStop said:


> What is that outfit :shock:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


that is one of her more tame outfits!! Google Fallon Taylor and you'll see some ridiculous stuff! But hey, she knows her market and is making tons of money selling that stuff to young girls.


----------



## QHDragon

enh817 said:


> that is one of her more tame outfits!! Google Fallon Taylor and you'll see some ridiculous stuff! But hey, she knows her market and is making tons of money selling that stuff to young girls.


She just released a bunch of helmets through Troxel. They are pretty wild looking!


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

QHDragon said:


> She just released a bunch of helmets through Troxel. They are pretty wild looking!


I kinda like them! I'm not a fan of how Troxels fit my head, though. Boo.


----------



## SorrelHorse

Fallon fits a market and from speaking with her I know she is a lovely and kind person, however her training and fashion style are not something that work for me. It is good for others though.


----------



## QHDragon

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I kinda like them! I'm not a fan of how Troxels fit my head, though. Boo.


I want the Tye-Dye one, but after suffering a concussion a year and a half ago I won't wear anything but Tipperary.


----------



## Candy123Kisses

I agree with the OP on this one... And FT has some interesting outfits...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------

