# Hunter Jumpers: Arch in the Lower Back?



## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Cupcake, 

It would be really helpful in answering your question is you posted a photo of yourself riding over fences. Perhaps your instructor is trying to correct a bad habit in your riding, like roaching your back? 

The overly hollow back is a form fault because it robs you of flexibility and the ability to follow the horse's motion. If your instructor is not trying to correct a different form fault by exaggerating the opposite, then she is teaching you something mannered and incorrect. Her reasons for this might be that she knows that's the form that gets pinned on your local show circuit, or that she truly believes that style is correct. 

Why don't you ask her? Politely, of course. Bring her a copy of Practical Horseman, or one of George Morris's books, and ask her which back position is correct and why.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I board at a very large Hunter/Jumper barn, and the arch in the lower back seems to be a "popular" thing - and just as already stated by Alison - it is an unfunctional form that pins in the Hunter ring because it is "pretty".

As already stated, the lower back arch makes the rider unfunctional. As the "Late and Great" Sally Swift said:

Imagine a bowl of water resting in your center. You as the rider must keep it balanced and centered so that no water spills. That water, represents your balance.

If you arch your lower back, you've now become unbalanced and that water will now gust out your front end. 

If you roach your lower back, you have once again, become unbalanced, and all that water now gushes out your back.

By keeping your lower back strait, you are more functional as a rider for your horse, than you would be with a hollowed out lower back and a roached lower back. 

Also, lets examine your core. What is the most important factor when riding? Your core. Your core is the center of everything with your riding, to remain functional and solid, you must have an activated core. By you hollowing out your lower back, you've lost alot of the ability to use your core properly. 

While sitting there, arch your lower back. Try to activate your core. Feel it. Now, while sitting there, straiten your lower back, now - activate your core again. Feel it.

Can you feel a difference between the two? I most definately can.

That core, is VERY important. When you are riding, it must be in use every stride your horse takes. It cannot be useful, with a hollowed out lower back.

Just as Alison said, go get George Morris's Equitation books and show them to your coach and ask her who is correct - her, or the "god" of Hunter/Jumpers, George Morris.

Ask her why, why is she wanting you to have a hollowed out lower back. Ask her how does that make you a functional rider.


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## Cupcake (Nov 17, 2009)

Thank you for the reply, Maura.

You make a good point. It may indeed be a case of exaggerating the opposite. I had developed the habit of using my lower back as a shock absorber and we began practicing the exaggerated position in part to break that habit.

I will of course talk to her about it. I do not have any recent pictures of myself riding, although I wish I did! It would be nice to be able to post in the critique section. You can never have too much good advice. 




Thank you for the informative post, MIEventer. 

When I arch my back I do feel unbalanced and struggle with tipping forward as the article describes. But when you first learn a new skill, it always does feel awkward and difficult... So I couldn't tell if the tipping was simply because the muscle sets required are weak and unaccustomed to holding that position.

It may also be that what I feel/experience as a very pronounced arch in my back doesn't appear quite as arched... It could be that I'm just not used to riding without folding in at the lower back.




I wouldn't think that my instructor would teach me to ride in an unfunctional manner. It may be that either this practice is to help me break a bad habit or just feels worse than it is (my lower back is killing me!).

At any rate, thank you for the replies, and I will ask my instructor to clarify exactly what my back _is_ doing and what it _should be_ doing.


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## horsequeen373 (Oct 4, 2009)

My old instructor taught me to arch my back and I recently stopped riding with her and Wed. I start with a new instructor (the switch was because my old barn only jumped up to 2'3" and I wanted to do more). I never really thought about asking the "whys" of riding until some what recently. My old intructor said that you arch your back so you won't get hit in the face if the horse pops his/her head over a jump, and I understand that. But I also understand the arguement against arching your back. I'm curious to see what my new instructor will expect from me, she is a much more experienced trainer then my old one (I loved her to death and she was a great instructor, but she was young and didn't have tons of experience). 
But does anyone have comments on the whole arching your back so you don't get poped in the face? I'm not sure how true that is, it just makes sense to me.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Horsequeen - I have to say, that this is the first time I have ever heard anyone say that you arch your lower back to prevent you from getting schmucked in the face when going over a fence.

I am trying very hard to understand this concept.........nope, can't comprehend it. It makes absolutely NO sense to me what-so-ever.

How does this prevent you from getting hit in the face? What does an arch in your lower back, have to do with your upper body?


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Horsequeen, I'm not sure I understand how arching your back can make you MORE secure while jumping. In my experience, it does just the opposite.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I have to say I absolutely hate that "arching" your lower back gets pinned. It's not functional, and I don't find it pretty in the least. When you arch your back, you change your pelvic tilt, which changes your balance. Your pelvis should be mostly neutral through your ride, with small adjustments for various movements.


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## horsequeen373 (Oct 4, 2009)

Because when you arch your lower back it lifts your upper body up so if the horse pops their head up your upper body is higher up so you won't get hit. The more I think about it though the less sense it makes. 
Allison, I never said it makes me more secure; I've never done anything else so I have no clue how it effects how secure you are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

Arching your back is NOT "something hunters do". I think often it isn't penalized and unfortunately a lot of people think it's much better then roaching your back (if you read the above posts, people are right when they say it's just as bad!). However, I'm wondering if Maura is on to something about fixing a habit. My trainer friend was telling me about one of her students who had a terrible habit of ducking hard to the left over every fence. They had many many lessons and discussions about staying over the center of the horse, why you don't duck, gymnastics, jumping without stirrups, etc and the kid still ducks left. Finally one day she told her to duck hard to the right. Whatya know the kid straightened herself out! Is it correct to actually duck right? No. But often if you have a bad habit you have to exaggerate the opposite to actually get it correctly. Perhaps this wording of "arch your lower back and stick out your butt" -while not entirely correct- gets you to ride correctly. The hard thing about being a trainer is to find the right words/explanation to get the correct results from a rider. But the again maybe your trainer is mistaken. There are a lot of riders who go around like this. It's a flaw known in the hunter ring as "duck butt".


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> It's a flaw known in the hunter ring as "duck butt".


lol, never heard that one. Around here it is called "porno butt"

~~~


> Because when you arch your lower back it lifts your upper body up so if the horse pops their head up your upper body is higher up so you won't get hit. The more I think about it though the less sense it makes.


Well, I am glad that it is making less sense to you.

How are you positioned when you are on approach to a fence? Is your Upper Body ahead of the verticle? Are you closing your hip angle before you are even over the fence? Do you allow your horse to close the angle and come up to you, or do you close the angle yourself?


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## ponyjocky (Apr 12, 2010)

straight backs with sholders back. no arching. its dangerous and ugly


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## Cupcake (Nov 17, 2009)

Thank you all for the continued replies!



upnover said:


> Arching your back is NOT "something hunters do". I think often it isn't penalized and unfortunately a lot of people think it's much better then roaching your back (if you read the above posts, people are right when they say it's just as bad!). However, I'm wondering if Maura is on to something about fixing a habit. [...] But often if you have a bad habit you have to exaggerate the opposite to actually get it correctly. Perhaps this wording of "arch your lower back and stick out your butt" -while not entirely correct- gets you to ride correctly. The hard thing about being a trainer is to find the right words/explanation to get the correct results from a rider. But the again maybe your trainer is mistaken. There are a lot of riders who go around like this. It's a flaw known in the hunter ring as "duck butt".


I too have been wondering if it was primarily to fix my habit of breaking at the lower back. She did tell me that riders in other disciplines refer to hunters as "duck-butts," but did not describe it as a flaw, rather as something that all the hunters do. But, like you say, it might be that I actually ride correctly when I try to arch my back and stick my butt out. I will have to ask her to clarify what she means and what I am doing.


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## horsequeen373 (Oct 4, 2009)

MIEventer said:


> Well, I am glad that it is making less sense to you.
> 
> How are you positioned when you are on approach to a fence? Is your Upper Body ahead of the verticle? Are you closing your hip angle before you are even over the fence? Do you allow your horse to close the angle and come up to you, or do you close the angle yourself?


Here is a pic of me jumping (I figured this might give you a better idea then me trying to explain; I'm not good at explaining). 

Division A - 2'3 Riders - Haleys-Dad's Photos

Normally when I jump my back is more arched then that but I don't have stirrups so that is why. This is the only decent/recent pic that I could find of me jumping.


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## Strange (Jan 11, 2009)

No stirrups? Nice. 

The only glaring things I see in that photo are 1) you're jumping ahead and 2) you're gripping with your knee, which has caused your lower leg to pivot back.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

> but did not describe it as a flaw, rather as something that all the hunters do


An overarched back or duck butt is never correct. If you look at photos of the top hunter seat equitation riders and Medal Maclay winners, you won't see many duck butts.

In my area of Virginia, you won't see it much in local shows either, it's penalized as a form fault. You might see an otherwise effective rider pin in spite of it, but you'll never see a rider pin because. I can't speak for other areas of the country and other show circuits. 

One of the ways the disciplines really differ is that a round back, or breaking at the lower back, is fairly common in eventers and jumper riders, but is considered a very serious form flaw in hunter seat eq. 

Without photos from the OP, I'm going to continue to assume that her instructor is trying to correct a round back, and get to a more correct, functional positions. If that's not the case, I can only assume that on their local show circuit it's judged differently, in which case I'd advise the OP to get some equitation text books and some magazine subscriptions and aim for higher than that local circuit.


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## horsequeen373 (Oct 4, 2009)

Strange said:


> No stirrups? Nice.
> 
> The only glaring things I see in that photo are 1) you're jumping ahead and 2) you're gripping with your knee, which has caused your lower leg to pivot back.


I'm working on not jumping ahead (I have a huge issue with this ). And whenever I don't have stirrups I grip with my knee (bad I know) so that doesn't happen when I do have stirrups (most of the time)

Thanks for the tips


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Well, the photos speak. I see that you are grasping with you knee and your lower leg is all over the place with no secure contact. You need to let go with your knee and put more contact with the inside of your calf. This will help hold your lower leg at the girth where it belongs. Your lower leg is MUCH more important than arching your back, which seems to be your main concern in those photos. Until your lower leg improves, you will have a very insecure jumping position, IME.





horsequeen373 said:


> I'm working on not jumping ahead (I have a huge issue with this ). And whenever I don't have stirrups I grip with my knee (bad I know) so that doesn't happen when I do have stirrups (most of the time)
> 
> Thanks for the tips



Sorry, but I see this in every photo.


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## horsequeen373 (Oct 4, 2009)

Allison Finch said:


> Well, the photos speak. I see that you are grasping with you knee and your lower leg is all over the place with no secure contact. You need to let go with your knee and put more contact with the inside of your calf. This will help hold your lower leg at the girth where it belongs. Your lower leg is MUCH more important than arching your back, which seems to be your main concern in those photos. Until your lower leg improves, you will have a very insecure jumping position, IME.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know I do that all the time when I don't have stirrups but I'm better at it when I do have stirrups (key word; better).


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Wow, I'm no master of jumping, but if my leg was that unstable, I wouldn't be allowed to jump crossrails. I don't know how long you've been with this trainer, but she's not doing you any favors judgeing from those pics. If you've been able to stay on in spite of that, you're obviously an athletic and capable rider. I'm sure you'd go far with proper instruction.

Aside from that, what saddle is that on the lighter chestnut colored horse? Sorry, but I'm saddle shopping and looking everywhere and anywhere for ideas.


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## horsequeen373 (Oct 4, 2009)

Not all of those pics are me, I'm on the black horse without stirrups. The other pics aren't me so I have no clue what saddle. And like I've said before my leg is better when I have stirrups but you can't see that cause I don't have recent pics of me with stirrups.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

horsequeen373 said:


> Not all of those pics are me, I'm on the black horse without stirrups. The other pics aren't me so I have no clue what saddle. And like I've said before my leg is better when I have stirrups but you can't see that cause I don't have recent pics of me with stirrups.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Oh crap! I'm so sorry! I didn't realize the pics of you were the black horse. I reverse my previous post, but still say you're an athletic rider. Fix that lower leg so it's hugging the horse instead of gripping with your knee and you'll look great. Now that other rider...ew.


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## horsequeen373 (Oct 4, 2009)

It's fine. I should have been more clear about that. Yea, that was a a local schooling show, and most of the trainers that bring their riders to that show aren't great trainers. One of them has the nickname Bloody Mary to say the least.


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## Cougar (Jun 11, 2009)

Besides it really effecting your riding and not being a functional form arching your back can cause you to really hurt your body. I was taught to do that at a young age and it carried over into my day to day life. I arched my back all the time and at 13 had to go get my back put back into place as I was so out of whack. I continued to have really bad lower back pains for two years and had to go to the chircopractor and a massage therapist.


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

Cougar said:


> Besides it really effecting your riding and not being a functional form arching your back can cause you to really hurt your body. I was taught to do that at a young age and it carried over into my day to day life. I arched my back all the time and at 13 had to go get my back put back into place as I was so out of whack. I continued to have really bad lower back pains for two years and had to go to the chircopractor and a massage therapist.


Exactly. It's called _hyper lordosis_, or more simply put - sway back.


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## PoohLP (Jan 15, 2009)

Your back is at the edge of beinging over arched in the pic. It could be flatter, but it isn't seriously flawed. So, when you say that with stirrups you arch more, that is a little concerning. I agree about the knees and the lower leg - you definitely need to get your lower leg more under control and focus less on the back for a bit. YOu also look like you might have some piano hands, or at the very least, you have a pretty serious break in your wrist. That may be because with your legs gone and your back arched, you are supporting yourself on your hands.

I used to do hunters, but with my instructor, backs were expected to be straight. I spent many a lesson riding with a crop down my back. Now I'm doing jumpers, and my trainer's trainer (who has done grand puissance and trains grand prix riders and horses, has us actually slump a little bit going up to the jump. Once you get the feeling, this is incredible at helping you stop jumping ahead, because you're all ready when the jump comes, so you don't have to make a big move to be in position. It also allows you to get out of the horses way faster, so that they can really snap their legs and back up. Still though, when in the air, the back is straight, not rounded or arched.


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## Jordan S (Jun 7, 2009)

I always keep my shoulders back, and that usually results in a slightly arched back, with the exception of a few strides before a jump(I lean back, and apply leg) of course.


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## teafortwo (Nov 14, 2009)

Here is my opion, neither is wrong every one has a diffrent riding style. Ive noticed pony kids tend to arch there back more (possibly to cover up what they CANT do with there riding) and win. Riders who do the Mclays have flatter backs and win as well, I personally rode with an Arched back in my short stirrup/novice days on ponies and WON about 5 or 6 *year end* awards. I ride with a less arched back and acctually feel like a better rider, I haven't competed in 2yrs so I can't say what the judges think of my unarched back. But there are plenty of things wrong the hunter/eq world that kids seem to think is okay b/c pros do it (rounding back, twisting for lead changes, turned hands) and i have no idea where im really going with this anymore but its just my opionion


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

teafortwo- if someone wanted to ride with their toes straight down, body hunched over, arms way up in the air, leaning to the side... would you say they ride correctly and it's just "their riding style"? Sure, on a kind horse that rider might be able to stay on for a while but _form fits function_. we don't look a certain way to be "pretty", we do it b/c that position is the most effective and secure way to ride. Certain positions will vary within different disciplines, but you ride "correct" for a reason. Putting an arch in your back renders your back weak and ineffective. Can you still ride a course like that? sure. Will it be the best it can be? No. 

Unfortunately pros aren't always the best example of proper form. Just b/c they do it doesn't mean it's correct. I say learn the basics properly.


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