# laminitis.. founder.. seedy toe..



## Story (Dec 28, 2010)

I rescued a mare yesterday who my farrier believes to be foundered. I have faith in my farrier and know that she can help Story reach her full soundness potential- I do have lots of questions though!

first of all.. A photo of Story's feet.









this was taken by my farrier who told me about the mare- she is NOT the current farrier for this mare. The first trim my farrier does for Story will be tomorrow- shoes are coming off.

Now, I know her feet are awful- and I am certain she has seedy toe which we will treat accordingly. 

My main question is do you think Story has foundered? Or just has atrocious feet? She is NOT lame. (she hasn't been ridden in 6 months as old owner says she is lame.. but she doesn't appear to be) I took her on a hand walk today through the trails at the barn. She was so happy to be out she was trotting around on her leadrope which makes me think she is not sore. 

Here is a video of her when we picked her up from her old barn.. Trotting around her field because she was so excited to come home!  Keep in mind she is on uneven hard ground, I realize the shots aren't the best to judge from but hopefully it will give you experts some help.





Thank you for any input and opinions- all greatly appreciated.


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## Story (Dec 28, 2010)

I have this thread posted on another forum and general consensus says that she is walking similar to a horse who has foundered- I have an uneducated eye when it comes to founder so it will be interesting to see what you guys think.


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## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

I've only ever seen one horse who foundered and her's was so severe she had to be put to sleep, but from what i learned in my research, i would guess that this horse had foundered, she doesn't seem to be in too bad a shape tho and i would guess that with a good farrier she could recover, i would suggest having your vet take x-rays so that your farrier can use them to trim her according to how bad the rotation is...to give you an idea, here are the x-rays from the horse i put down,


























Good luck with your horse, please keep me update!


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## Story (Dec 28, 2010)

oh goodness, that poor horse  Thank you for sharing pictures! I will post a link to the blog I am keeping of her progress as that will be maintained more then this thread 

Long Story Short


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi,

Yes, it appears(pics can be misleading) that she is foundered, and at least in the front right, which looks worse, is likely 'rotated'. Her feet are also terribly balanced & that right front at least has very long, 'underslung' heels. Only having straight-on shots of her back soles makes it a little unclear, but it appears her backs are rather flat, unbalanced, but otherwise not in terrible shape.

First thing I'd do is get rid of the shoes(at least until her feet become healthy) & get/keep her *well* trimmed - but I do realise you said shoes were coming off. I would also advise getting xrays. A good, knowledgeable hoof care practitioner should be able to 'read' the signs to get a pretty good idea of what is going on in the hoof, but xrays are best for certainty and accuracy of details. I would also get bloodwork done to tell me whether the horse was also insulin resistant(bit like type 2 diabetes) which will enable you to better gauge how strict or otherwise you have to be with her diet.

Next thing I'd do is refer to my signature comments and learn as much as you can about hoof function & health. Your farrier may or may not be as good as you reckon, but her work is a small part of the horse's rehab and it pays for owners to educate themselves as much as possible & not have to just go on the opinions & advice of whatever 'expert' they choose. **Please note, not assuming you're ignorant at all, just that even many 'experts' have little real knowledge in the area and everyone can always learn more.



Story said:


> She is NOT lame. (she hasn't been ridden in 6 months as old owner says she is lame.. but she doesn't appear to be)


No offense, but with those shoes & pads on, how would you know? They are likely just masking her pain well enough to allow her to appear sound(while still doing damage). I would wait until the shoes come off to judge her lameness. I would also be prepared for the possibility of her needing boots or such for protection & support full time to begin with in the short term, if she's uncomfortable bare in the paddock. I would definitely ensure this horse's feet were well protected with boots or such(backs too) for any hard/rough ground or being ridden.

'Seedy toe'(aka white line disease, thrush, complete separation, wall abscessing...), like thrush of the frogs, is an opportunistic infection that healthy feet are not prone to. Therefore it can be considered a symptom of the 'disease'. When a horse is foundered and the laminar connections are separated, the hooves put out keretin material from the dermal laminae, known as 'lamellar wedge' which fills the gap. Infection can get in, particularly when there are also mechanical issues which work against the hoof, and it eats away the lamellar material. Treating the entire problem with a combined approach is needed, but yes, directly treating the infection is also important too, because even with other issues resolved, the infection can perpetuate separation & sensitivity by continuing to eat away the tissue as fast as new healthy stuff can grow down.

You mentioned something about changing her diet - maybe on the blog page - that is a great start and diet & nutrition is SOOO important. Even horses on 'diets' need around 2% of their bodyweight daily in roughage and should not be left hungry for many hours at a time tho. You didn't give details, but it may be that she needs more than you're giving her and sugarbeet pulp may(or may not - I know little about it) not be the most appropriate(or perhaps economical) healthy diet option. Long stemmed grass hay is generally OK, and if you're worried about sugar levels, soaking it in water for at least half an hour before feeding leeches out a lot of sugar. 'Slow feeding' methods such as doubled hay net or such may also be worth considering.


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## Gizmo (Dec 19, 2010)

Unfoutunatly I have had recently a lot of experience with founder, and yes it looks like she has. But it also looks like it was a while ago. Because you can see the rings in her hooves and the first rings only start to appear after a month. Just by the way she is walking and everything I think she is recovered from the founder. But I would definitely pull the shoes for sure. That isn't helping at all. Now there are a few things you can do. Put out the money to get X-rays to see if she rotated and how much. But to me the way she is walking and everything I don't think she will need them. Just by the growth of the hoof it doesn't look like it was that bad. But she will need a good trim. Once the horse is foundered there is no reason they can't go back to normal. It will be anywhere from a year to a year and a half with the appropriate care and also the right diet. Since you don't know how she foundered that is really going to be key, because if you feed her too much, even just a little she could relapse and founder all over again and make the rotation that already has occurred worse. Founder in the rear hooves is very rare and I don't see any signs of it there. So that is good. One thing you want to watch for is if her hooves around the top and the cornet get hot. That isn't good. But all those things are signs of foundering again. It looks like she is fine now. She wouldn't be trotting around. My horse could barely move for like three days when he foundered. So its definitely in the past like I said by looking at the founder rings you can tell that it has at least been over a month. I don't think you will know much more until she trims your horse. My farrier showed my by the growth of the hoof and everything that he did rotate some, but after a month I am riding him lightly because with quick reaction I stopped the rotation. Just by looking at the video of how she is doing everything looks good. It would depend on what your farrier finds when looking at her hooves to decide if she is ok to ride or not. But I would listen to professionals on that one. You don't want to push her and put her into pain. Its better to let her rest and heal if thats what it takes. As for boots or anything. I don't use them and he is still doing great. I don't really like them all that much. I think it would be harder on his feet that just walking barefoot would be. But good luck! I hope you find good news when she does her feet.


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## Story (Dec 28, 2010)

loosie said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yes, it appears(pics can be misleading) that she is foundered, and at least in the front right, which looks worse, is likely 'rotated'. Her feet are also terribly balanced & that right front at least has very long, 'underslung' heels. Only having straight-on shots of her back soles makes it a little unclear, but it appears her backs are rather flat, unbalanced, but otherwise not in terrible shape.
> 
> ...


fantastic post! Thank you so much for taking the time to type that all out and read her blog. She will be getting xrays in a few months.. I was not intending to buy another horse, but when I was told she was to be put down my heart strings took over and I went and BOUGHT her.. Her purchase price would have well covered xrays but thats another story. As for her diet she will be getting bloodwork done also, but same thing- in a few months. For now we are presuming she is insulin resistant and have her on a diet of soaked beetpulp (no molasses), accompanied with vitamin E, salt, and mineral supplements. She gets this twice a day. (and LOVES it:lol

To answer your question I really don't know  I believe she will be sore when the shoes are taken off, and after watching the video over and over I am more convinced that she is walking sore. We will either be casting her today after the shoes come off and she is trimmed, or we will boot her.. or both!

Thank you for your patience with me... 



Gizmo said:


> Unfoutunatly I have had recently a lot of experience with founder, and yes it looks like she has. But it also looks like it was a while ago. Because you can see the rings in her hooves and the first rings only start to appear after a month. Just by the way she is walking and everything I think she is recovered from the founder. But I would definitely pull the shoes for sure. That isn't helping at all. Now there are a few things you can do. Put out the money to get X-rays to see if she rotated and how much. But to me the way she is walking and everything I don't think she will need them. Just by the growth of the hoof it doesn't look like it was that bad. But she will need a good trim. Once the horse is foundered there is no reason they can't go back to normal. It will be anywhere from a year to a year and a half with the appropriate care and also the right diet. Since you don't know how she foundered that is really going to be key, because if you feed her too much, even just a little she could relapse and founder all over again and make the rotation that already has occurred worse. Founder in the rear hooves is very rare and I don't see any signs of it there. So that is good. One thing you want to watch for is if her hooves around the top and the cornet get hot. That isn't good. But all those things are signs of foundering again. It looks like she is fine now. She wouldn't be trotting around. My horse could barely move for like three days when he foundered. So its definitely in the past like I said by looking at the founder rings you can tell that it has at least been over a month. I don't think you will know much more until she trims your horse. My farrier showed my by the growth of the hoof and everything that he did rotate some, but after a month I am riding him lightly because with quick reaction I stopped the rotation. Just by looking at the video of how she is doing everything looks good. It would depend on what your farrier finds when looking at her hooves to decide if she is ok to ride or not. But I would listen to professionals on that one. You don't want to push her and put her into pain. Its better to let her rest and heal if thats what it takes. As for boots or anything. I don't use them and he is still doing great. I don't really like them all that much. I think it would be harder on his feet that just walking barefoot would be. But good luck! I hope you find good news when she does her feet.


It was at least six months ago when she would have developed founder.. The pictures above show the "corrective shoeing" that was supposed to be fixing the problem. Another question I have is if it is good to get her walking around if she is willing? I took her for a walk (about 20 minutes) through the trails yesterday and she loved it- but I wan't to make sure it isn't going to be detrimental to her health..


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Gizmo said:


> But it also looks like it was a while ago. Because you can see the rings in her hooves and the first rings only start to appear after a month.


Firstly, I differentiate between laminitis and founder, terms that many seem to use interchangeably & have different definitions of. IMO Laminitis is inflammation of the laminae, caused from metabolic(generally diet related) upsets. That is what causes the rings. Founder is the mechanical progression of the 'disease' if it's allowed to continue untreated, or not treated properly. Once the lamellar connection is weakened or broken down thru lami, the coffin bone can 'sink' &/or 'rotate' in relation to the hoof capsule and the hoof walls become separated from the dermal laminae which are connected to the coffin bone.

It does look like the top 3/4" of her poor front feet *may* be unaffected by lami, which could mean she hasn't suffered from this in the last month, give or take. However, as it's likely been ongoing - or frequent - before this and the hooves have become seriously foundered(the right front especially), just ensuring she is unlikely to suffer laminitis again is not going to make the issue go away. She will need careful hoof care & management until that healthy, well connected growth at the coronet can grow right down. 



> Just by the way she is walking and everything I think she is recovered from the founder. ....But to me the way she is walking and everything I don't think she will need them. Just by the growth of the hoof it doesn't look like it was that bad.


Sorry to be a 'fly in your ointment', but to me that sounds like your being extremely presumptive, based only on a few pics, and you don't understand the problems very well at all. Especially to advise against xrays, especially in light of that right front which I'd be happy to bet is quite 'rotated'! While by my def. you may be meaning lami when you say founder, and I agree that it *appears* she *may* not have suffered from this in the last few weeks or more, as I asked OP, how can you tell if she's lame in those shoes for a start?? Also while I am loath to say much from the vid - my computer's too slow to get much from it - it didn't look like she was walking quite right to me.



> Once the horse is foundered there is no reason they can't go back to normal.


Another generalisation that may not hold up. I agree that *with the right treatment & management* the vast majority of horses are recoverable and a good likelihood that this is one of them, but there are some who do indeed have very good reasons why they cannot be returned 'to normal'.



> Founder in the rear hooves is very rare and I don't see any signs of it there.


Founder *with rotation* is uncommon in rear hooves and generally speaking, the back feet, being used differently(not less) do tend to remain healthier, as they appear in this case. However, laminitis effects all hooves equally. It is the mechanical differences that tend to effect backs less. In this example, it does seem that the soles could well be 'sunk' and thin from founder, but they're nowhere near as bad as the fronts, and keeping them in good shape along with preventing further lami attacks may well be all they need to become healthy & strong.



> She wouldn't be trotting around. My horse could barely move for like three days when he foundered.


You're confusing the severity of the symptoms with the disease. Some horses may have no or very mild symptoms when suffering lami or even founder. Some may be badly foundered at the same time as suffering a lami attack, etc. Also disregarding the palliative effects the shoes with pads are probably having. 



> But I would listen to professionals on that one.


Um, it seems that a 'professional' that did the 'corrective' shoeing was at least part of this mare's problem. I think becoming educated ourselves is vital, at very least because you can basically find 'professionals' that will tell you a range of different things, based on their experience, knowledge, etc. I've even turned up to new clients who's horses are seriously foundered & yet vets and 'master' farriers have said feet are fine! Regardless whether someone's a novice or an 'expert', they can still be good, bad or indifferent, so I wouldn't personally advise you blindly follow any 'professional' or otherwise, without doing your own homework first, to better analyse their opinions & approaches.




> Another question I have is if it is good to get her walking around if she is willing? I took her for a walk (about 20 minutes) through the trails yesterday and she loved it- but I wan't to make sure it isn't going to be detrimental to her health..


I would personally keep her on soft footing & no high impact exercise at least until she can be well trimmed, as she is already foundered and is shod, so all the load is effectively hung from disconnected walls(this does depend on the effect of the pads too). Once trimmed, the more exercise the better *so long as she is comfortable & her feet adequately protected*. 

The problem with allowing or forcing a horse to exercise on hard or rough ground(or even sometimes on soft if severe enough probs) when they have thin soles &/or weak heels(rotation aside) is that there is precious little 'armor' between P3 & internal structures and the outside world. The hoof is therefore open not only to pain but to abscessing from stone bruises, which can be huge and painful setbacks. Also if the horse has sensitive heels, no matter how 'well balanced' you may trim their feet, they will still continue to land toe-first, exacerbating founder, navicular and other issues. So regardless of whether the horse is obviously lame or apparently oblivious to their feet(and many people don't even recognise toe-first impacts either), if the feet appear thin soled &/or weak heeled, I would definitely be protecting them on hard ground and wouldn't advise barefoot on anything but yielding surfaces for now.
http://www.horseforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=869233#ixzz19eGznPXB​


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## Story (Dec 28, 2010)

loosie said:


> I would personally keep her on soft footing & no high impact exercise at least until she can be well trimmed, as she is already foundered and is shod, so all the load is effectively hung from disconnected walls(this does depend on the effect of the pads too). Once trimmed, the more exercise the better *so long as she is comfortable & her feet adequately protected*.
> 
> The problem with allowing or forcing a horse to exercise on hard or rough ground(or even sometimes on soft if severe enough probs) when they have thin soles &/or weak heels(rotation aside) is that there is precious little 'armor' between P3 & internal structures and the outside world. The hoof is therefore open not only to pain but to abscessing from stone bruises, which can be huge and painful setbacks. Also if the horse has sensitive heels, no matter how 'well balanced' you may trim their feet, they will still continue to land toe-first, exacerbating founder, navicular and other issues. So regardless of whether the horse is obviously lame or apparently oblivious to their feet(and many people don't even recognise toe-first impacts either), if the feet appear thin soled &/or weak heeled, I would definitely be protecting them on hard ground and wouldn't advise barefoot on anything but yielding surfaces for now.
> http://www.horseforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=869233#ixzz19eGznPXB[/COLOR][/LEFT]


She had a very good trim session today, and her feet obviously do not look great- but definitely are improved. I will provide pictures when my farrier sends them. We casted her feet and have easy boots on over top of the casting so she has a lot of support for her poor thin soles. My farrier says she is comfortable with me taking her on daily walks- so it looks like I have a new dog :wink:

Thank you for your post and information


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## Gizmo (Dec 19, 2010)

loosie said:


> Firstly, I differentiate between laminitis and founder, terms that many seem to use interchangeably & have different definitions of. IMO Laminitis is inflammation of the laminae, caused from metabolic(generally diet related) upsets. That is what causes the rings. Founder is the mechanical progression of the 'disease' if it's allowed to continue untreated, or not treated properly. Once the lamellar connection is weakened or broken down thru lami, the coffin bone can 'sink' &/or 'rotate' in relation to the hoof capsule and the hoof walls become separated from the dermal laminae which are connected to the coffin bone.


"Each attack of acute laminitis can leave a ring formation on the hoof. A horse suffering from chronic founder will have multiple rings on his hooves. He might also have seedy toe, a separation of the hoof wall from the sensitive laminae in the toe area. If left untrimmed, the hoof wall also overgrows to form a "slipper foot"." This is a qoute I found, and it looks like there is more than one ring on her hooves which would be founder. I do know there is a difference between the two.




loosie said:


> Sorry to be a 'fly in your ointment', but to me that sounds like your being extremely presumptive, based only on a few pics, and you don't understand the problems very well at all. Especially to advise against xrays, especially in light of that right front which I'd be happy to bet is quite 'rotated'! While by my def. you may be meaning lami when you say founder, and I agree that it *appears* she *may* not have suffered from this in the last few weeks or more, as I asked OP, how can you tell if she's lame in those shoes for a start?? Also while I am loath to say much from the vid - my computer's too slow to get much from it - it didn't look like she was walking quite right to me.


The point I was trying to make was that the damage is already done. I did say that the only way of knowing how much the horse rotated would be to get x-rays but the damage has already been done so if someone wouldn't be able to afford expensive x-rays the point would be mute. But if she wants to see how much the horse is rotated then she should get them done. But without further sings of founder then the rotation has stopped and the damage is already done.





loosie said:


> Another generalization that may not hold up. I agree that *with the right treatment & management* the vast majority of horses are recoverable and a good likelihood that this is one of them, but there are some who do indeed have very good reasons why they cannot be returned 'to normal'.


Well maybe if you didn't take what I said out of context it would make sense to you. Because I did say with time and "proper management" like a "healthy diet". She could get back to normal within a year or a year and a half.





loosie said:


> You're confusing the severity of the symptoms with the disease. Some horses may have no or very mild symptoms when suffering lami or even founder. Some may be badly foundered at the same time as suffering a lami attack, etc. Also disregarding the palliative effects the shoes with pads are probably having.


When founder happens there is something obviously wrong. In the video the horse was trotting, so she obviously isn't in a lot of pain. So the founder was most likely older and she is recovering or it wasn't a severe founder.





loosie said:


> Um, it seems that a 'professional' that did the 'corrective' shoeing was at least part of this mare's problem. I think becoming educated ourselves is vital, at very least because you can basically find 'professionals' that will tell you a range of different things, based on their experience, knowledge, etc. I've even turned up to new clients who's horses are seriously foundered & yet vets and 'master' farriers have said feet are fine! Regardless whether someone's a novice or an 'expert', they can still be good, bad or indifferent, so I wouldn't personally advise you blindly follow any 'professional' or otherwise, without doing your own homework first, to better analyse their opinions & approaches.


Actually corrective shoeing with wedges help a horse who has foundered. Probably wasn't the best thing to nail them in but glue on are VERY expensive and not every person can afford them. That's why my farrier, who is very intelligent, used two inch Styrofoam wedges on my horses feet to give him support and a mustang roll. Quick action and support did a lot to help him recover quickly. But that also goes along with maintaining. The horse should have had her feet done four weeks after the founder happened and obviously it hasn't been done in a while. I don't what professionals you deal with but the ones I deal with are professional, my farrier told me what was happening to my horse without even seeing him. And has helped and guided me with his quick recovery and well as stopping the rotation to begin with. Proffesionals, such as vets are that for a reason they have gone through 8-10 years of school to learn what they need to. It is true that some have different opinions and everything. But founder in itself is something of a mystery. There still is no reason why certain things cause it and there is no sure treatment or medication to treat it either. Its still somewhat of a medical mystery. I would trust a professional to be able to do their job. And I am not a veterinarian. I was just trying to tell her not to take everything I say and use it, its up to her and how she wants to handle it and how she wants to use her farrier and vet to her power. 
P.S. "Lami" is spelled laminae.

​

Ok, now that I have defended myself and my opinions and knowledge of what I know is right. To answer your question story, I would keep her on soft ground. Her feet are going to be really soar and I wouldn't do anything until a couple of days after she is trimmed. I know its hard with winter and everything but its the best thing to do. And I would keep it shorter that 20 minutes a day and built her up more. Just really light until you find out anything more. It was a month before I could start riding Gizmo and it might be more depending upon how badly she rotated. Fortunately I reacted with things very quickly and was able to stop the rotation before it got very bad and my horse has really good feet with very hard soles so that probably helped him out too. One thing the vet told me to keep doing was to give him joint supplements. I started when the weather got cold and she said it was a good idea to keep it up to help with his joints. With carrying more weight in the front it may have weakened her back joints a little. But that is up to you. But I would get a vet out to see how she is doing. My farrier has been with me the whole time with Gizmo and she gave me permission to ride him on soft ground lightly but to build him up and see how he takes things, like if he starts to she pain or something then stop. So I would suggest the same thing to you when walking her. I don't push Gizmo in any way at all. I let him tell me how he is feeling though and it has worked so far. So good luck! I hope she is feeling better quickly and you can have fun with your new horse. 

And and sorry for above on your post. But I had to defend myself. I don't like it when people don't like other people's opinions and actually facts and think they know ALL there is to know about EVERYTHING. Just trying to tell you what I have had experience with is all.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Firstly Gismo, not meaning to come across as 'attacking' you or anything, just debating some of your points that I disagree with. Trying to be rational & objective about specifics I see differently to you. Hope this time I succeed without your angst. Cheers!



Gizmo said:


> the only way of knowing how much the horse rotated would be to get x-rays but the damage has already been done so if someone wouldn't be able to afford expensive x-rays the point would be mute. But if she wants to see how much the horse is rotated then she should get them done. But without further sings of founder then the rotation has stopped and the damage is already done.


Whether or not the horse has already done the damage or not is not really relevant IMO, so it's that point, not value of xrays that I see as 'moot'. I think there are generally enough indications on the outside that actually give you a pretty good idea of what's going on inside, without xrays. It is the surety & precision of measurements(eg. being able to know exactly how much sole, whether/how far frog & lateral cartilages have dropped, etc...) that xrays can be helpful for, to know precisely how far you may be able to trim, where breakover should be, etc, rather than taking educated guesses & erring on the side of caution without them. I also question your comment about the rotation having 'stopped'. I don't understand what would lead you to this assumption?



> Well maybe if you didn't take what I said out of context it would make sense to you. Because I did say with time and "proper management" like a "healthy diet". She could get back to normal within a year or a year and a half.


Didn't take it out of context & actually said I agree with you *generally* on that. But what you said was "there is *no reason* they can't go back to normal.http://www.horseforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=871895#ixzz19paqFaC0" That is what I disagree with, the definite nature of the comment because horses can indeed suffer damage serious enough to be beyond rehab - it is unrealistic to think that every horse is recoverable IMO. I agree with what you said above that "She *could* get back to normal". Sorry if that's being too pedantic:?.



> When founder happens there is something obviously wrong. In the video the horse was trotting, so she obviously isn't in a lot of pain. So the founder was most likely older and she is recovering or it wasn't a severe founder.


Firstly, the horse shod/padded in such a way may be continuing to do serious damage without feeling it(much, she's obviously not quite right either). Secondly, even horses in pain, foundered or otherwise, can often trot, so that doesn't tell us anything IMO. So I think it's an unfounded(pardon the pun!) assumption that she is recovering or not severe. She may well be, for all we know, but need far more info.



> Actually corrective shoeing with wedges help a horse who has foundered.


I disagree actually, if we're talking rehab. They can indeed 'help' a horse palliatively - make them more comfortable, relieve pain, short term at least. Pads & wedges can help in that way because it is common for the rear of the foot to be sensitive & weak. But IME they don't help rehab - & generally exacerbate the actual problems, leading to continuing or worsening damage. 'Navicular' for eg, is another issue that is thought to be largely due to toe-first impacts, which are largely unavoidable when wedges are used.



> horse should have had her feet done four weeks after the founder happened and obviously it hasn't been done in a while. I don't what professionals you deal with but the ones I deal with are professional,


I too obviously disagree with how this horse has obviously been (mis)managed, but how can you know that it's feet haven't been attended to in a long time?? That's not in the least obvious to me from these few pics. As for '4 weeks after founder' I don't get how you came to that idea. It also sounds like you're being condescending & presumptive with your 'professionals' comment. Perhaps that's just because you're feeling defensive about my differences of opinion tho.



> my farrier told me what was happening to my horse without even seeing him. And has helped and guided me with his quick recovery and well as stopping the rotation to begin with.


Most 'professionals' should have a good idea as to what's likely going on in this sort of case, if you describe the symptoms well enough. Not presuming to know what happened to your horse specifically, but what you have told about symptoms & also treatment doesn't add up to me - no rotation in the first place, but 2"(!!) wedges used, 'really good feet' but I thought you said he'd foundered, etc... I gather that your horse must be now completely sound without shoes, pads or high heels?



> Proffesionals, such as vets are that for a reason they have gone through 8-10 years of school to learn what they need to. It is true that some have different opinions and everything.


Not necessarily. Yes, vets do a lot of schooling, not necessarily specific to horses, let alone their hooves though. Farriers may or may not have had a year or few's training, but their education is not necessarily comprehensive either. There is also a LOT of new information come to light from recent studies that vets & farriers may not also have learned, especially if they did their formal schooling many years ago. All that is aside from differences of opinion and the 'expert's' level of skill & savvy & experience. So just because someone is a professional doesn't make them automatically worth heeding. That is why I think it is so important for owners to educate themselves on the principles & factors of hoof function & health, so they can better analyse the skill & knowledge of their 'expert' of choice & make *informed* choices on what 'expert' & approach they try, rather than just blindly trusting any 'professional' because they're a 'professional'.



> But founder in itself is something of a mystery. There still is no reason why certain things cause it and there is no sure treatment or medication to treat it either.


True, to a degree. Up until quite recently it & laminitis were a whole lot more so, but there is a heap of good science out there now, that have removed most of the 'mystery' from it.



> P.S. "Lami" is spelled laminae.


PS. IME, 'lami' is generally short for laminitis.
 
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> Ok, now that I have defended myself and my opinions and knowledge of what I know is right.


We're all entitled to our opinions, be they 'right' or otherwise. Like I said, wasn't meaning to attack - so don't feel the need to 'defend' - but rather my intention was a rational debate. I too am reasonably firm in my opinions - as you've no doubt guessed:wink:. They are based on many years of continual study(actually doing another formal course this year) and lots of experience with successfully rehabbing horses. But I do personally think that a lot of specifics are but *opinion* not hard & fast facts, so I do think it's always important to keep an open mind & keep learning & considering other's opinions, whether you ultimately come to think they're acceptable or not.



> I don't like it when people don't like other people's opinions and actually facts and think they know ALL there is to know about EVERYTHING. Just trying to tell you what I have had experience with is all.


Each to their own, but if you're not open to other's opinions, you're not open to learning either. Also if you only ever want to hear your own opinions confirmed, I don't get what you think these forums are for? I never proclaimed to know even MOST about ANYTHING either, by the way, just giving my own opinions based on far more than one experience. IMO there is always a HEAP more to be learned. Sorry that I came across contrary to you. Actually what prompted me to feel the need to address points of your post specifically was because your post came across precisely that way to me. It seemed you were stating your opinions as facts & being rather definite & pedantic about specifics you seem to have little understanding of. Was trying to point out that 'it ain't necessarily so'. So hope that I've now got across the right messages(I know I'm not the best communicator in the world), but perhaps you should consider how your own posts come across & how they may be taken too.

Anyway OP & others here, I hope this debate is helpful to your further understanding of factors & different approaches & opinions, as that was why I started it in the first place. Cheers!


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