# White Horses



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

there really isn't any such thing as a White horses. there is Perlino. and Creamello that are whiteish and then there is a horse that has Greyed or Roaned out. and i don't think there really is any genetic defects that come with any of these colors but i'm not to sure. it's not like an Albino or anything i think it's just a color and doesn't cause defects


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## foreignmusic (Mar 7, 2010)

From what I have been taught and experienced, the white horse is actually a grey, a true white being an albino, pink skinned and rare. There are genetic charts and likely other posters here that can explain this phenomenon if you are interested as this is pretty much all I know : ).

Typically, white, or grey horses, tend to have black skin and it has been common among black-skinned horses to be susceptable to tumours along the lymph system, not always cancerous. This Black Skin Syndrome, as it is known, seems prevalent among Arabians but is not exclusive to them (I think it is simply because they are predominantly black skinned thru-out the breed!).

Horses with white among other colours such as our paints and pintos can range from literally white skin right on thru mottled, speckled, all shades in between to black.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

There is no such thing as a turly white horse, it would have to be an albino and tose are non exhistent in horses, (albinos have no skin or hair pigment and red to pink eyes). Horses are not truly white, they are light gray, or have "white" fur but a black coat and were originally gray but turned whiter with age or they are Cremello with two creme genes giving them pink skin, blue eyes and a soft white gold colored to white fur. 


Here is a good link to help you out.
http://http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/white.html


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Horses go grey because of a gene; it's not an actual coat color, although we call it that.

As has been stated, there are no truly white horses unless they're albino, and albinism is rare.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

Good answers, guys!
But isn't there the Lethal White gene?
And what about Medicine Hat Paints? Is all that white hair over the rest of the body over black skin? Wait..... don't all bay horses have black skin?
Sorry to be a hijacker. I'm just confused. 
EDIT
and this link confused me
http://images.google.com/imgres?img...en&client=safari&sa=X&tbo=1&rls=en&tbs=isch:1


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Thunder,

Here's an article that explains things better, although I take exception to the statement that lethal whites are never born alive, because many are. They just don't live very long.

The Difference between White and Gray Horses: How Horses? Skin Color and Genetics Distinguish Coat Colors


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> Here's an article that explains things better


I have to disagree. They may think they explain better, but when I read a statement like this



> Even if the horse has completely white hairs all over the body, with no trace of a darker color, if the skin is black then the horse is gray.


I start to boggle just a bit. If the horse is covered with white hair, it's not white, but grey? This makes sense how, exactly?


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

I think the so-called "albino" horses talked about on that website are most likely just Ww horses that are double dilutes underneath, although I could be wrong about this. Either way, there are no true albino horses, although white horses definitely exist. They just aren't very common.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

jamesqf said:


> I have to disagree. They may think they explain better, but when I read a statement like this
> 
> 
> 
> I start to boggle just a bit. If the horse is covered with white hair, it's not white, but grey? This makes sense how, exactly?


Because the horse has 'greyed out'. 'Grey' foals aren't born white, they're usually bay chestnut or black. Then gradually they start to get white hairs and turn white. Hence the black skin with white hairs. It's just called grey even if the actually hair is white. Don't ask me why!


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## foreignmusic (Mar 7, 2010)

Many horsess have white hair/fur, straight pure white, but as mentioned, they weren't all born this way, other than horses of colour. The reason a "white" horse is referred to as grey I believe is to distinguish between the albinos and "white" horses (many if not most are born darker, also mentioned above). I could be wrong here but I think albinism was not ever common but was more just a bit more frequently occuring in history back.

Also, the difference in terms could relate to the skin colours of each horse. The "grey" having black skin and an "unofficial" white being pink. Or not... : )


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

thunderhooves said:


> Good answers, guys!
> But isn't there the Lethal White gene?


I just started reading up on that! It looks like LW is a problem with the paint/pinto Frame pattern gene; in the homozygous form the foal is born solid white, and without a functioning digestive tract and generally dies within a few days. 

White Patterns | www.equine-color.info 
The LW info is a bit down the page with the section on Frame.


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## paintluver (Apr 5, 2007)

Ok, I have heard this what do other people think?
I have been told paints have pink skin which makes them white, and grey horses have black skin which makes them grey.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

^^ I think that's correct, but......... don't out bay horses have black skin,too?


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Quixotic said:


> I think the so-called "albino" horses talked about on that website are most likely just Ww horses that are double dilutes underneath, although I could be wrong about this. Either way, there are no true albino horses, although white horses definitely exist. They just aren't very common.


Nope, Albino horses don't exist,* white fur+ black skin+brown-amber eyes=gray* and *white fur+ pink skin+ blue eyes= double dilute* *creme gene*. *And an albino HAS to have red eyes or it is just a double dilute.*


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

The confusion is because a Paint/pinto that is completely white will not necessarily pass that trait on to a foal. No one knows what determines how much white vs. color a Paint/pinto will have. An all-white Paint/pinto is not really a white horse, they're a Paint/pinto with a white spot so big it covers their entire body. If we called them white it would imply that they have a "white coat" gene, which they don't. They have a "colored coat" gene.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Honeysuga said:


> Nope, Albino horses don't exist,* white fur+ black skin+brown-amber eyes=gray* and *white fur+ pink skin+ blue eyes= double dilute* *creme gene*. *And an albino HAS to have red eyes or it is just a double dilute.*



Yes.. and another point is that albinism is a metabolic disorder. It has nothing whatsoever to do with what color genes a horse has.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Was just about to post that - Albinism does NOT exist in horses. I believe it's lethal at embryonic stage?

There are many dilutions that make a horse look white, but most all white horses are simply fully greyed out greys, or I beleive maximum sabino?


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Yeah maximum sabino is what I meant with all-white Paints/Pintos.


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

Honeysuga said:


> Nope, Albino horses don't exist,* white fur+ black skin+brown-amber eyes=gray* and *white fur+ pink skin+ blue eyes= double dilute* *creme gene*. *And an albino HAS to have red eyes or it is just a double dilute.*


Not sure if you thought I was saying Albinos existed in horses, since you quoted my post, but I was not, I know there's no such thing. Although White horses most definitely do exist, you just don't see a true white horse very often. 
And like ponyboy said, there is a difference between a "white" pinto & a true white horse. Homozygous Frame is lethal, as is Homozygous White, but they are different genes.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

Most 'white' horses people see are grays,









However there are also cremellos and perlinos that get confused for whites.

But there are white horses, they are generally an extreme expression of pinto pattern, genetically they could be any color, but white may be all you can see. In my opinion I would call that a white, if I owned one and was asked the color I'd say white. Now if I was planning to breed it (or standing at stud) I would need to know the genetics behind it, and probably wouldn't call it 'just white'. I don't really think they are that rare, I can think of three here locally. White pony mare down the road w/ blue eyes, had a white foal w/ brown eyes. Another guy in town has a little blue eyed white mare. That's three I can think of in this little town. 

The most obvious way to tell the difference is their skin, gray's have dark skin, cremellos/perlinos have pinkish skin, but it's a creamier color of pink (hard to explain) skin and their eyes tend to be a very pale blue. White horses have very pink skin and may have blue or brown eyes, typically the blue eyes are brighter then a cremellos. I'd say the biggest health issue would be sun burn, I've heard people say their bodies can burn, but their faces are all I've had experience w/ them burning, and that's any white faced horse. And if they have pink around their eyes they can be more prone to skin cancer there.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Quixotic said:


> Not sure if you thought I was saying Albinos existed in horses, since you quoted my post, but I was not, I know there's no such thing. Although White horses most definitely do exist, you just don't see a true white horse very often.
> And like ponyboy said, there is a difference between a "white" pinto & a true white horse. Homozygous Frame is lethal, as is Homozygous White, but they are different genes.


I didn't mean it toward you at all. I just wanted to make it clear to anyone who might not know or bight have been told that there are albino horses(double diluted with blue eyes are often called albino...) that albinism is not possible in horses for some reason, as WS said it is lethal in the embrionic stage so the embryo never develops into a foal.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

haviris said:


> The most obvious way to tell the difference is their skin, gray's have dark skin, cremellos/perlinos have pinkish skin, but it's a creamier color of pink (hard to explain) skin and their eyes tend to be a very pale blue. .


The color of skin you are thinking is "peach" which is very common in double dilute horses, a sort of light pink tinged with a bit of orange, more like peach ice cream color.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> An all-white Paint/pinto is not really a white horse, they're a Paint/pinto with a white spot so big it covers their entire body. If we called them white it would imply that they have a "white coat" gene, which they don't. They have a "colored coat" gene.


Sure. Like the white text on my computer screen isn't really white, 'cause it's a bunch of red, green, and blue pixels. The fact that it LOOKS white is just an illusion, and completely irrelevant, no?

So you've got a bunch of horses standing in a field, and you ask someone who knows nothing about equine genetics what the colors are, don't you suppose they can tell white from grey?


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

jamesqf said:


> Sure. Like the white text on my computer screen isn't really white, 'cause it's a bunch of red, green, and blue pixels. The fact that it LOOKS white is just an illusion, and completely irrelevant, no?
> 
> So you've got a bunch of horses standing in a field, and you ask someone who knows nothing about equine genetics what the colors are, don't you suppose they can tell white from grey?


No need to be rude. We are simply explaining the science behind it. i don't really agree with it, but scientifically, it makes sense.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

usmanjilani said:


> is their some sort of genetic defect in horses that have WHITE COLOUR..........................or its just a colour, no problem in horse..........


Perhaps I read the OP wrong or maybe this thread just got off track with the discussion about white horses, or perhaps this is just semantics, but obviously there are horses with a lot of 'real' white (with pink skin) on them. Here is our tovero Paint mare...I refer to her as our 'mainly white' mare, though she is 'officially' chestnut.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

PaintHorseMares said:


> Perhaps I read the OP wrong or maybe this thread just got off track with the discussion about white horses, or perhaps this is just semantics, but obviously there are horses with a lot of 'real' white (with pink skin) on them. Here is our tovero Paint mare...I refer to her as our 'mainly white' mare, though she is 'officially' chestnut.


A chestnut? Or a chestnut tovero?


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Genetically, she has a chestnut base (ee) and the tovero (?) pattern is just overlaying that.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

wild_spot said:


> Genetically, she has a chestnut base (ee) and the tovero (?) pattern is just overlaying that.


Yes, a chestnut color, tovero pattern. Her color is in only one large area on the other side (looks like South America). Other than that (and the head and tail coloring), she's completely white.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

jamesqf said:


> Sure. Like the white text on my computer screen isn't really white, 'cause it's a bunch of red, green, and blue pixels. The fact that it LOOKS white is just an illusion, and completely irrelevant, no?
> 
> So you've got a bunch of horses standing in a field, and you ask someone who knows nothing about equine genetics what the colors are, don't you suppose they can tell white from grey?


Your computer screen has white text? That's cool - I like reversed screens to.

If I had to describe a "white" horse to someone who knew nothing about horses, I'd use the word white at first... But then I would explain what the horse actually is. It wouldn't hurt the person to learn something new.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

thunderhooves said:


> No need to be rude. We are simply explaining the science behind it. i don't really agree with it, but scientifically, it makes sense.


I wasn't intending to be rude (a little sarcastic, maybe ), and if I came across that way, I apologize. 

I do think I have a valid point, though. If a person with no knowledge of horses or their genetics sees a bunch of horses in a field, they can say that this one's grey, and that one's white (with of course some borderline cases), and everyone will know exactly what they're talking about. So why bring up the genetic stuff outside of a breeding context, and confuse people by saying that an obviously white horse is really grey?


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Me, I just find it fascinating and love to chat about colour genetics :]


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> Me, I just find it fascinating and love to chat about colour genetics :]


I think it's interesting, too - though I wouldn't go quite so far as fascinating. But if you ask me to describe a couple of the horses pictured on the previous page, I'm still going to say "white", and "white with some brown spots"


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

jamesqf said:


> .... But if you ask me to describe a couple of the horses pictured on the previous page, I'm still going to say "white", and "white with some brown spots"


Me too ;-) and my objective was really to interject that, at least in Paints, their white (where the pattern masks the color) is really white, not grey.
'White', as defined in APHA rule RG-70
_*B.* For the purpose of this rule, the term “natural Paint marking” shall mean_
_a predominant hair coat color with at least one contrasting area of solid_
_white hair of the required size with some underlying unpigmented skin_
_present on the horse at the time of its birth. This solid white area must_
_be in the prescribed zone depicted in the illustration below. In the event_
_the horse has a predominantly white hair coat, the term “natural Paint_
_marking” shall mean at least one contrasting area of the required size of_
_colored hair with some underlying pigmented skin present on the horse_
_at the time of its birth. This colored area must be in the prescribed zone_
_depicted in the illustration below._


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

Yep, paint markings are white, just like blazes & stockings & snips & etc are white. Can you imagine if they were actually gray, & suddenly like your horse turns 8 or whatever & it was like, SURPRISE! He has a bald face! Would be a bit silly


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Some of us just value education more than others. Say I'm a barn owner and I'm hiring staff. I have one grey horse who looks white. First thing I do when someone comes for an interview is ask them to get the grey horse out of the field for me. If they look at me confused, they don't get the job. I think if you care about horses you take the time to learn about them, and knowing that grey horses fade to white is pretty basic.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> ...and knowing that grey horses fade to white is pretty basic.


I don't quite get it. I have several friends (of the human persuasion) who've faded to white over the years. If I were to speak about them to a new acquaintance, would I describe them as blonde, brunette, or redhead?


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## masatisan (Jan 12, 2009)

My horse is grey (he was born chestnut) and has a blaze down his face. His skin is _not_ black it's a pale grey, and pink where his blaze is (even though his blaze is now invisible). The strange thing is his skin is black around his eyes, nose and sheath, and other areas with thin hair, so you would think it would be black everywhere, but it isn't (he also has a half pink-half black wiener, which I find very strange).


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

I agree that the genetics can go over someone's head and I don't think it's totally needs to be said, especially w/ a totally white Paint/pinto. If you are breeding knowing the genetics is important, if you are not then the horse is white! However, I think gray vs. white is pretty easily distingished, even if someone needs to be shown the difference the first time. 

It can be alittle harder to see the difference between a double delute and white, although if I had a cremello someone called white, I'd probably explain it to them, the same way I do when people ask me if my white (double merle) dog is an albino.

People use to sometimes refer to my light palomino as white, and I have to admit it bugged me, and I'd correct them.


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## masatisan (Jan 12, 2009)

I have a challenge for everyone:

Which is grey and which isn't?
A)









B)


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I'd say the racer isn't. Very pink skin, cream coat and obviously it's racing so it's going to be young, usually they're still 'grey' while they're racing. 

Could be wrong, I wouldn't have a clue about genetics etc. Only that most 'greys' start out bay, chestnut or black and 'grey out'.


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

The draft is gray - look at the colour of his sheath.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

They both look white to me


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

jamesqf said:


> I don't quite get it. I have several friends (of the human persuasion) who've faded to white over the years. If I were to speak about them to a new acquaintance, would I describe them as blonde, brunette, or redhead?


I answered this question on page three. I said that if I were describing horse to someone who knew nothing about horses, I would use the word white at first, but I would also explain to them that the horse isn't really white.

Otherwise I'd call a "white" horse grey unless proven otherwise since sabino-white is very rare. I suppose a double dilute horse could be mistaken for grey at a distance, but then a brown horse could be mistaken for black at a distance too.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Now that you mention it, though, I can't remember having ever seen a black horse. Very dark brown, yes, and pinto/paint with patches that I would say are true black, but never one that was really black over 100% of the body.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

I've known one non-fading black.


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## Snowkicker (Dec 23, 2009)

A. grey B. not Grey
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<----------------
My horse is a minimally marked tovero. Although he has two paint patterns he is almost solid dark Bay. His Sire was an almost solid white tovero. Only 10 percent black and 90 percent white. I raised the sire from a colt and he did have chronic skin issues. If he wasn't sun burnt, he had scratches. If he didn't have Scratches he had rainrot...ect. His baby, the horse in my Avatar, I bred out of a solid mare has not had any skin issues. I have since gelded and sold the stallion to a home that is more pampering than mine. I'm keeping his more rugged son for my future all rounder.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

Sorry I'm late, but I agree, A-gray B-non gray.

Here are a pair of blacks (mother and son),









I think we've had more blacks then any other color.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

This stuff goes way over my head. My mare is black and white. The skin underneath her black hair is black. The skin underneath her white hair is pink. Sure, if you mix her all together, she's gray, really, but she was born black and white and she's still black and white. Her black is getting some white hairs in it, around her hips and her muzzle, which I believe is age. She is 18. But still, there is no way I'm going to call my black and white paint a gray and black paint. 

A picture of Ricci's baby picture.









And now, at 18.









I think this is a gray horse.


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

ricci, your horse IS black & white. It's not rare for a horse to have white markings, it's rare for them to have the gene that turns their entire body white.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

jamesqf said:


> Now that you mention it, though, I can't remember having ever seen a black horse. Very dark brown, yes, and pinto/paint with patches that I would say are true black, but never one that was really black over 100% of the body.


 
That is because the whole black vs. brown thing is exactly the same as the white vs. gray. It really boils down to genetics, the _actual_ color is usually genetically totally different to the _PERCIEVED_ color. 

As you said, to a lay eye, gray horse is white and dark brown horse is black. But genetics tell us that because the white horse that has gray or black skin and amber to brown eyes, it is really a light gray horse and the white horse that has pink skin and blue eyes is a double dilute. 

Same with the dark brown horse, genetics tells us that if the horse has brown around its muzzle, eyes, ears, lege, etc. even though its coat looks really dark to black it is not a black horse genetically, it is a brown horse, that the horse is only truly black if that is the only color on the horse(before sunbleaching of course) besides white markings, there will be no red or brown tinting to the coat overall.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

haviris said:


> Here are a pair of blacks (mother and son),


Hate to say this, but they both look brown to me


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Quixotic said:


> ricci, your horse IS black & white. It's not rare for a horse to have white markings, it's rare for them to have the gene that turns their entire body white.


Oh!! That makes sense. Thanks. =D


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

If anyone is interested at all in the genetics behind all of this, someone on another forum posted a very informative article that explains everything.

http://duncentralstation.com/PDF/KITGeneMutations-Castle.pdf


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