# "Vertical pastures" for SE United States?



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Instinct is barely understood and with the so calle dprogession of humans we have lost most of ours. 

A herbalist friend of mine in Eire took me to what was known as the Fairy Field about twelve acres of land that had sold for more than prime property ground. 

In this field there were all sorts of herbs growing. Sick animals turned out there instinctively searched out the plants they needed to heal them. 

With horses or any stock you need to protect the trees so that the animals cannot get to them or they will soon be killed off. Even mature trees can be killed by animals stripping the bark.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I listed several possibilities in your other thread. The problem is many of the well known trees are tropical in nature or don't grow on our soils or have thorns that discourage browsing. There is not a lot of research done because there is more money in grasses and ground cover legumes instead of tree or shrub types. Most research is done with ruminants for vertical fodder. Anything you plant would need to be grown in belts and fenced off. We have a permanent fence and then temporary fence several feet off to protect anything planted. It is my experiment area for possible fodder trees. Nut trees like pecan can also provide fat and protein as horses will eat those as well. While there can be issue with immature acorns many horses will eat them once they have turned brown and have been rained on enough to wash most of the tannins making the kernel sweet. BOSS or black oil sunflower can be planted and harvested as a top dress for feeding. Another useful Helianthus is Jerusalem artichoke. Ruminants will browse the tops but the tuber is what you want for the horses so would need harvesting and drying.

Permaculture books and websites, Winrock International, ATTRA, Feedipedia are all sources that you can use to find information.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Can you grow mulberries in Alabama?

Horses love the leaves, and it's great shade.

Mulberry: an exceptional forage available almost worldwide!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Yes, Sue and I do have Mulberry in my pasture. I had several varities in Tx that I used when I was there and it is the one thing I brought with me for that purpose. It was hard to get them established. I'm actually still working on that in one area as they will tear through electric when the leaves are young and tender. 

Here is the list from the other thread just for reference. 

This is a list of trees and scrub that may be able to be used, As this isn’t a “thing” here finding them commercially in quantity can be difficult with lesser known plants and there is little research on common plants used for landscaping. Some extension services may provide plants at cost if they have a tree/shrub forage program for other animals. Climate and soils will determine which work best. I have tried to find sources for *Tagasaste* (_Chamaecytisus palmensis_) and have only found seed that would be imported.
Mulberry (Morus spp)
Honey Locust (Gleditsia tricanthos var.) – female, thornless these are grafted so you have to watch for root stock
Clustered bitter pea (Daviesia corymbosa)
Hop bitter pea (Daviesia latifolia)
Douglas hawthorn or Black hawthorn (Crataegus douglasii)
Saltbush (_Atriplex spp)_
Non-invasive (clumping) bamboo (_Bambusa ventricosa_ and _Bambusa oldhamii_ )
*Crape myrtle* (Lagerstroemia sp.) – this is not toxic but I haven’t seen research on using as a single source mixed with pasture forage.
*Pigeon pea (Cajanus cajan) - seed and possibly forage after established*



11.5 acres in that area should be more than enough for 2 or even 3 horses.

ETA I don't know why this did not post yesterday when I hit Post but it didn't - luckily the reply was still in the reply box so here it is.

ETA 2: When searching for plants you have to be very specific about scientific names as other varieties could be harmful.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Pecan trees...there are many varieties and I know that Georgia grows many pecans, I'm sure there is one that will grow in your area. 

My horses occasionally eat the leaves and go "nuts" for the nuts in the fall.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I'd go with papershell varieties if using for this purpose and plant outside the fence or in a corner you won't ride in as they can be heck on the hooves.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Ah, QtrBel, _Atriplex_ is something we use in inland Australia as well for fodder and supplementation. It's interesting to see the overlaps. 

BTW, tagasaste grows in Sydney too, and horse people use it as a fodder hedge/shelterbelt - Sydney has a wet hot summer and a wet cool winter. We have a dry hot summer and a wet cool winter. It's pretty adaptable climate-wise but does need deep sandy soils without winter waterlogging. Acacias are more adaptable in both directions.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Our native acaias are either rather thorny, not suitable or haven't been researched. Or the pods are an issue so would have to be well away and hand harvested to be fed. Those that are suitable are most often tropical and we are on the very edge with some winters getting too cold even in protected locations. 
I feel the tagasaste would do well here if I could find a good source for seed. Of the two I tried one set never germinated and the other were wormy and eaten out. Didn't bother trying again after that. There is one farm I am aware of in California (Redwoodhills) that uses it for their goats and are doing well with it. I may try contacting them for seed or even cuttings.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

The cows love the rose hedge but because of the thorns I don't have it in an area the horses can get to. I need to find a non thorny variety that grows like what I have.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

QtrBel said:


> Our native acaias are either rather thorny, not suitable or haven't been researched. Or the pods are an issue so would have to be well away and hand harvested to be fed. Those that are suitable are most often tropical and we are on the very edge with some winters getting too cold even in protected locations.


Well, Australian eucalypts are widely planted around the world, and I'm sure Australian fodder acacias could be too, if anyone does them where you are.




> I feel the tagasaste would do well here if I could find a good source for seed. Of the two I tried one set never germinated and the other were wormy and eaten out. Didn't bother trying again after that. There is one farm I am aware of in California (Redwoodhills) that uses it for their goats and are doing well with it. I may try contacting them for seed or even cuttings.


The local nursery here says to pour nearly boiling water over the tagasaste seed and let them sit for an hour to break their dormancy.

Once you have a row, it will regenerate from seed as long as you control the grasses under the hedge, and have two hot wires (polybraid works best here, it's visible and flexible so nobody gets accidentally caught in the fence) rigged so that self-service by animals only allows access to the outermost branches. You can see that here (click and click again to see it properly):


More Morning Naps – Red Moon Sanctuary, Redmond, Western Australia by Brett and Sue Coulstock, on Flickr

The animals actually prune the tagasaste so it doesn't interfere with the hot wires, if you get your spacings right - without being able to bark strip or damage the trees. Then we only have to come in with a pole saw every now and then and cut the tops back to approx.1.3 m from the ground, to stop the hedge becoming spindly.

A hedge not exposed to animals looks like this:


Shelter in a Windy Valley – Strawbale House Build in Redmond Western Australia by Brett and Sue Coulstock, on Flickr

In that case, we trim both the sides and the tops to keep the hedge in shape and producing, and feed all the prunings to our livestock.


If anyone is desperate, we could send seeds if you can't source them and if your quarantine regulations permit it.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Wow, what a great thread!
HF is so full of diversity and knowledge ;o
Sorry, off topic! <3

EDIT - Glad to have you back, @SueC !!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I went ahead and contacted Redwood Hills by email. I'll see what they say. I would hope sending seed through the mail wouldn't be an issue as I had no trouble with it last time except that they didn't come from Australia. Eden Seeds won't ship outside Australia so maybe there are restrictions now I am not aware of.

ETA I lightly scarified and used boiling water. Perhaps they did not sit long enough or being scarified I should have let it cool to just under the full rolling boil stage. I use the same method with Tx Mountain Laurel (Sophora secundiflora - note this is NOT a fodder tree)


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

Paulounia trees are native to Africa and used for fodder there


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

When we moved here my collection of ornamental dried flowers and grasses were all removed from our crates when they were checked and destroyed in line with Customs rules.
It isn't easy to bring in seeds from another country. This is an extract from the official US Customs site:


_However, certain plants and ANY plant parts intended for growing (propagative) require a foreign phytosanitary certificate in advance. For information on certificates, contact the USDA/APHIS Plant Protection and Quarantine Permit Unit at *(301) 851-2046 *or *(877) 770-5990* Also, check the Information Resources section at the end of this notice for details._

It's possible to grow the suitable trees but growing trees that will be both shelter and food isn't so straightforward because on the whole horses tend to prefer grasses to leaves and the sort of trees that they do like to eat are deciduous so not much use for shelter in the winter. Even where we have the type of trees and bushes that they will eat they mostly tend to leave them alone and only nibble at them occasionally when the grass is getting low.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I haven't seen a Paulownia in years. There was one on the highway north to meet I10 but it came down during Katrina. I know they can be invasive in some areas so planting them is often discouraged. I need to see if there are any more around here.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

By the way, tagasaste and acacias are both evergreen. Young tagasaste doesn't like frost but once established, can tolerate light frosts. Acacias are more resistant.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

This is a fascinating thread! I admit I never thought about my horses eating shrubs and leaves until I gave them access to a wooded area and found they loved to nibble on all sorts of things! The plan is to add a few more areas this summer. It's unlikely the varieties you're all talking about would do well in my part of the world (eastern Canada, brrrr!!!), but one thing we have in abundance is raspberry bushes, and they love those. 

@*SueC* the idea of planting the trees/shrubs just outside the fence is brilliant! The horses only have access when the plant is mature and hanging over the fence, and they can't trample it! I will be using that!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

North American residents could have a look at _Mother Earth News_ magazine for this kind of stuff. It's your equivalent to our Australian _Grass Roots_, where we discuss this kind of thing all the time. I subscribe to both. Full of fantastic ideas on all sorts of things. May also get you seed sources. 

For example, we bought our initial tagasaste through a rural magazine, as bare-rooted year-old plants, for $100 for 1000 of them. Came in two feedbag-size packs by courier. Tagasaste is a legume and so needs inoculation with the correct microbes for best performance - to make the N-fixing root nodules which are the "protein factories" if you like, that make legumes so high-protein. If you get bare-rooted seedlings from underneath adult trees, they will be inoculated with the same sorts of bugs as their parent plants. If you grow from seed in sterile potting mix, they won't have any symbiotic bacteria - so if growing from seed, maybe buy some appropriate inoculants, or at least try using soil from around other legumes.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I have a bunch of crape myrtles. I don't think my horses like them as we are always trimming them back. I would think the easiest way to find out what makes for a good vertical pasture is to go trail riding and see if your horse snatches any leaves, then try to identify the plant. Then you at least know that it is something that grows in your climate.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

SueC said:


> Can you grow mulberries in Alabama?
> 
> Horses love the leaves, and it's great shade.
> 
> Mulberry: an exceptional forage available almost worldwide!


I don't know about Alabama, but in Florida you can't kill Mullberry trees/bushes if you wanted too.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Oddly, I have seen my gelding snatch needles from a spruce tree that grows just outside his paddock! This is very strange, as you wouldn't think it would be very palatable and spruce is quite prickly, unlike fir. It is, however, a great source of vitamin C as are most conifers. Deer browse on coniferous trees in winter for this reason (and because there is little else to eat, to be fair). They love cedar, but I've never seen my horses eat it. My gelding has digestive issues though (he is on ulcer meds) so maybe the spruce provides some relief for some reason. 

I make tea from white pine needles in the winter, to give my family an immune boost. Upon arrival to the New World, Cartier and his men suffered badly from scruvy and First Nations people told them to make tea from a tree (the exact species remains a mystery to botanists) and it cured them. White pine is extremely high in vitamin C, but other conifers also make good tea. White birch bark and tips are an excellent detoxifier. Sorry, off-topic. But the medicinal properties of plants is something I've become very interested in over the last few years. Maybe I'll plant some white pine right outside the paddock!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

And look what I found! A mulberry just for us Canucks! https://www.greenbarnnursery.ca/products/illinois-everbearing-mulberry-black

A tad pricey, so I will see if I can source some locally... this will be a great addition to our fruit tree repertoire! Thanks SueC!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Hello Arcadianartist,

Here's an interesting article on Vitamin C and horses. Unlike humans, they can usually make their own Vitamin C, but....

https://ker.com/equinews/vitamin-c-horse-diets/

Apologies if you've already read this; you seem very nutritionally aware!  I just like to share interesting articles I've read.

PS: And once you buy a mulberry, you can forever propagate new ones from cuttings! Or just get cuttings from a friend...


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks SueC! I am really just starting to learn about horse nutrition (it's been a crash course over the last two years) so this is extremely useful!

The article is fascinating, and seems to indicate that additional vitamin C can be beneficial in situations of high stress, a weakened immune system, etc. I wonder if he is reacting to the ulcer meds.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Lori They do very well here too. Many don't like or want them around because of the purple poo so cut them out and pull the stumps. My issues establishing them was not due to the plant failing but to human destruction and an issue with a fertilizer company. The ones I have now are cuttings from what DH's great grands brought from Italy and the only issue has been keeping critters off them but they are growing.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

QtrBel said:


> Lori They do very well here too. Many don't like or want them around because of the purple poo so cut them out and pull the stumps. My issues establishing them was not due to the plant failing but to human destruction and an issue with a fertilizer company. The ones I have now are cuttings from what DH's great grands brought from Italy and the only issue has been keeping critters off them but they are growing.


I have a couple in my yard that I have to prune often but I like them and the birds do too. My neighbors on the other hand have cut theirs down so many times (even below the dirt) and it keeps coming back. It makes me smile, LOL


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

:smile: Leave any piece and it will come back is my experience.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

So Paulownia trees are edible then? I was thinking of getting one because i need a fast growing shade tree. Even better if they are edible too.


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