# Trials and Tribulations of the Adult Beginner



## jgnmoose

Welcome to the Horse world!

Your best money spent right now will be on the highest quality coaching you can get. 

Lessons for Adult beginners can be tough to find for exactly the reasons you mention. For a variety of reasons most programs seem interested in Girls aged 8-18 in Hunter/Jumper/Eventing. Particularly on the English side, and that is even true here in the heart of "Horse Country, USA!" (North Texas). 

A good coach is going to teach you not just how to ride, but about horsemanship. You will spend the rest of your life trying to become a better rider and horseman. The very best in the world are still learning how to be better, it is what makes this relationship so amazing. 

I wouldn't recommend getting too hung up on any particular breed right now. 98% of what you are about to learn applies to every horse on the planet. Horses are individuals, and in my opinion that exceeds their breeding in terms of who they are, what they can do and how you need to work with them.

You linked a video of OTTBs. I'll just say this. Many are young horses and race horses aren't really "broke". It is a very bad combination for a beginner. A good first horse for a beginner is 10+ years old and has been there done that "very broke" horse with a little bit of a lazy streak. Almost the complete opposite of what a prototypical OTTB could be. I realize that sounds like it contradicts my previous statement. The point is that it is their youth, environment and training that makes them a potentially bad choice, not the individual horse or breeding. 

Western vs. English. I think you should start in what interests you. Neither is more correct or skillful than the other. There is a massive gulf of difference between Western Pleasure and Reined Cow Horse, and the same is true on the other side.

Good luck!


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## tinyliny

I can tell your journal will become a best seller here.


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## Cammey

jgnmoose said:


> Welcome to the Horse world!
> 
> Your best money spent right now will be on the highest quality coaching you can get.


Thank you. And yes, this is my priority right now. 



jgnmoose said:


> I wouldn't recommend getting too hung up on any particular breed right now....
> 
> You linked a video of OTTBs. I'll just say this. Many are young horses and race horses aren't really "broke". It is a very bad combination for a beginner. A good first horse for a beginner is 10+ years old and has been there done that "very broke" horse with a little bit of a lazy streak. Almost the complete opposite of what a prototypical OTTB could be. I realize that sounds like it contradicts my previous statement. The point is that it is their youth, environment and training that makes them a potentially bad choice, not the individual horse or breeding.


Yep - and I do see how that's not at all a contradiction. One of the reasons I posted that particular OTTB video is because it shows that exact problem. The series goes through the entire 15 hour re-training process and by the end they still can hardly get the horse to stop without rearing up a bit - and then their time is up and the horse returns to the fostering stable to be re-homed. 

I'm also nowhere near looking at leasing, let alone buying, a horse just yet. This is much more the idle-fantasy stage. I need to get a much better idea of both my level of commitment as well as what discipline(s) I want to consider. 

That said, while I understand well-broke I'm not quite sure I'd go as far as looking for a horse with a lazy streak - I understand why that would be appealing, but honestly I more feel that if I'm not at a skill level where that crutch isn't necessary then I probably am not actually ready to buy a horse just yet. Actual experience may change my mind real quick on this one though, so we'll see. 



tinyliny said:


> I can tell your journal will become a best seller here.


Thank you! I'm hoping it will prove interesting/useful for people honestly. I'm a tiny bit behind but do have another post coming on how my first lesson went fairly shortly.


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## Avna

Please rethink the "don't need a lazy streak". You'll be a beginner for a long time, believe me. If you have a safe slow horse of your own (or lease), you will learn so much faster than having to use other people's horses on their schedule not yours. There's a vast amount to horsekeeping besides riding. A nice gentle horse with good ground manners will let you learn without getting hurt or struggling -- too much. 

Many people are content with easy safe horses for their entire riding lives. There is no shame in it. The time to get a more exciting horse is when your beginner horse is just not challenging enough. That is going to be a good long while.


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## Cammey

*Lesson 1: “Evaluation Ride”*
The time-slot I managed to secure was Sunday morning. On one hand, I see why this is great for the horse - the beginner lesson is basically their warm-up. On the other hand, mornings and I don’t always get along. 

Anticipation managed to drive me out of bed - which was good, but I was still a bit bleary. I drove past the place three times before I saw the small sign set back a ways from the road. When I got to the stable I was… honestly a little confused and disappointed. I confess, I was expecting the sort of big-budget stable I had been seeing on Youtube. Where I had arrived was, as far as I could tell, basically a smallish farmhouse. 

I was still a little early, and there was no one in sight. I was growing increasingly paranoid I had found the wrong place. Trying to find the trainer I was here to meet, I ended up wandering around tentatively and hoping I wasn’t about to get squacked at for trespassing. 

I came across, first, an open-side barn with the tack, with various saddles sitting out for someone to grab. Then spotted a jumping course out a slight ways which I recognized from photos on the web. Finally, rounding a to the back of the house I spotted a small _herd_ of horses grazing at a hay feeding area not a hundred feet from me. They were an oddly mismatched bunch - one small pony came up hardly to the elbow of the largest horse. Most appeared to be large ponies/small horses with a few notably taller exceptions. There were a couple trees in there and the horses went back a ways - I’m still not sure how many horses there actually were in that area, nor how far back that area went. If I were to guess, I’d say probably 8-10 in that little group. 

One of them also clearly spotted me. While most of the horses kept on happily grazing a single large horse poked their head up and turned to face me directly - ears straight up and obviously paying attention. There were two full sets of fences between us, but we stood there squared off for about a minute before I thought that I might well be coming off as aggressive (based entirely on what I saw on youtube) - even to a horse that far away from me. I turned my shoulders to be at an angle and looked somewhere else for a bit. The horse relaxed a little, lowering their head slightly. I turned back, the horse looked up but didn’t set themselves quite so square - interested, but not seeming quite as cautious.

That horse, as it turns out, would end up being my lesson horse for the day. 

There were a few things I had known about this stable before I came here. I knew the owner loved re-training off the track thoroughbreds and had been a long-time proponent of the practice. This was one of the things I actually was a bit excited about, as I had fallen in love with OTTBs and was looking forward to see a place that by all reports did re-training very well. I knew that the stable (which I will call “High Road” - a pseudonym) was often gone to by people who were looking to move from basic lessons to more advanced training. They regularly traveled as a team (which included adults) to hunter/jumper shows, and also taught _eventing_ and all its components - one of the only places around here which would do so on school horses. I did not know (but quickly learned) that first-time-beginner training was less their typical focus.

After a bit of paperwork (.. I am both comforted and terrified that you want my health insurance policy number…), fitting a helmet, and moving my car (apparently the area I parked in was used for horses, not cars) we were ready to officially begin.

This is when I got to meet Dragon (pseudonym), a 17 HH OTTB Mare. She apparently competes jumping on the A circuit regularly and is often used as a teaching horse more on the advanced skills side. She’s a gorgeous dark chestnut and while I know very little about conformation I can recognize balance and she looks like something I’d see while watching the Grand Prix. Basically, she is everything I fantasized about when I thought what sort of horse I might want to have/work with, but thought would probably be a bad idea because OTTBs are generally seen as being too hot and not for beginners. 

My first lesson was in grooming. She had rolled a bit in the mud, which had dried on her coat. I started with the curry comb going over her, starting with her shoulder, moving onto her back and rump, and finally (very, very gently) to her legs and face. Then there was brushing the dust out and giving her a treat. By the time this process was done we had both managed to get a bit more comfortable with each other. She was looking at me sort of curiously. I was figuring out where she liked to be scratched/petted. The little bit of nervousness we both had was gone. 

There was a quick tacking lesson (which fortunately I recognized most of from watching training videos - though I did not say that) and then without much ceremony it was over to the mounting block and right up onto the horse’s back. 

We walked off for a ‘pony ride’ to the Arena without bothering to check much of anything. Those first 10 seconds were the most nervous I would be on the horse all day. Advice on position from youtube was running through my head. I focused quite hard on _not_ gripping with my legs and leaving them relaxed (because squeezing with the legs can mean ‘go’ and the last thing I wanted was this horse speeding up - never mind that she was being led), keeping my back straight and legs down (“Imagine if the horse were to disappear - you should still be standing”) and trying to find some semblance of balance and moving with the horse (“you’re at your most balanced when your center of gravity is low, near the horse’s - so heels down and try to stay down into the seat”). 

By the time we got into the arena I felt I had ‘gotten’ it a bit and my balance was considerably better. This was the first time Jill (my trainer -pseudonym) turned around to check the details of my position… She seemed pleased. I felt a little clever. It was my first mini-accomplishment of the day.

I was put out on a lead line to check my position and balance in the walk. We did a few exercises - hands out airplane, out in front, above my head… airplane arms and turn torso to the center, now away from the center… turn the horse around and do it all again.

This stuff, fortunately, was not at all hard. 

I was taken off the line, handed the reigns, and after a _very_ quick description of hand positions we were going over basic steering and halt. 

Then, without further ado, I was off and walking slow circles around the arena and practicing my ‘walk-halt-walk-halt’ and steering. There were a few jumps set up which acted as obstacles I could practice walking and steering around. I got her to weave around them - change direction, and head back. I had now honestly made my goal for the first several lessons and was really starting to feel the magic of riding. I was getting the tiniest bit excited.

After probably ten minutes of this Jill called me back over to the lead line, and we started doing circles again - this time at a slow seated trot. I did the same balance exercises as before. Once again, I found the first three easy - though the rotating at the torso was doable but genuinely a little trickier (and I said as much). We then did a walk-without-stirrups, then a trot-without-stirrups, then dropping and picking up the stirrups up while trotting. Then a bit of a faster trot. All of this felt pretty solid and not as tricky as I had been nervous it might be.

We did not try the torso-twist without stirrups at a trot, for which I was thankful. 

Then I was off on my own again, and going around the arena practicing speed changes and basic steering (including halt from various speeds). 

A lot of things started happening at this point. First, Dragon seemed to wake up a bit. It’s kind of difficult to describe - but she seemed sort of thrilled to be moving. I did not have to _ask_ her to speed up so much as _let_ her. Jill and I had idly talked about Thoroughbreds and how she viewed them as the Ferrari of horses (it’s clear she loves the breed *a lot*). That was sort of what it felt like - learning to drive in a Ferrari. 

I could literally get her to walk by *thinking* walk. It took less than an inch of movement in the reins to steer her. In fact, I realized to some extent I only really needed the reins much at all if I wanted precision - she would steer from how I was gently turning in the seat. 

Getting her to slow down and halt was harder. I worked hard on making sure I was leaning back slightly when I wanted her to halt. It was clear to me she was a little confused/distressed when I leaned forward and touched the reins, I got a pretty clear sense of ‘what the hell are you asking me to do?’ until I leaned back and she settled. After that the lean-back-to halt sort of 'clicked' for me and I found myself doing it without much thought. I found I could stop her from the walk with just the seat.

I started working on more complex patterns, weaving around the jumps and working on steering. I also got a quick lesson in preventing her from falling in on turns using my leg, which she responded to nicely. 

As this went on a bit Dragon started to relax and - this is hard to describe, but sort of get happy and excited?. This wasn’t at all in a nervous way - but more almost playful. She started to get just slightly trickier to manage. I could *feel* her energy below me - she wanted to go faster and I was gently holding her back. She also was drawn towards Jill, so I practiced getting her to halt from a trot while facing her but still a ways away. This was the only time I had to actually _pull_ the reins a bit and actually correct a little rather than just signaling with them. 

In fact, that was really the next little part of the lesson - getting her to realize she needed to listen to *me* rather than keep looking over towards Jill. I started using the reins mostly to gently get her attention whenever she looked over rather than to steer her. We also had a few gentle discussions about what speed we were going to go at. Dragon listened perfectly - but I needed to actually _tell_ her to stay slow.

There were only two very slightly concerning parts during all this.

The first time was while I was in the trot (quite intentionally opening up a bit) and apparently she drifted over to an even faster trot then I realized she was able to do. I was bouncing in the seat and focused on trying to figure out how to stay down - without realizing that the problem wasn’t my seat, but the fact that the horse had sped up on me without me noticing. Jill asked me to slow her down - which I did - before going into a turn. Honestly, I’m glad she asked. In retrospect I was too focused on what my body was doing to realize that my mistake was the speed rather than my form and that trying to turn on her while bouncing like that probably wasn't the greatest idea. I don't think I would have lost my seat, but I wouldn't have been totally in control. In retrospect, catching this so quickly was one of the things that gave me more confidence in Jill.

The second was that while weaving through the jumps Dragon very clearly kept trying to line up on them. I don’t think she thought that was what I was asking her to do - it was more a _suggestion_ of something more fun we could try. I had to politely tell her that no, sadly, today we would not be going over the jumps - even the cute little ones she was trying to line me up on.

While I don't want to over-project too much I found myself secretly wondering if Dragon was picking up on *my* excitement and reflecting it in herself. To be honest, I really kind of _did_ want to go faster, and I really kind of _did_ want to touch those jumps. I just knew it wasn’t a good idea. Dragon and I honestly were actually of roughly the same mind in what we _wanted_ to do. I almost felt a little guilty I wasn’t ready to oblige her yet.

We ended by wrapping up the lesson back on lead as I tried to do some posting on trot. This was where my awesomeness wore off. While I could stand in the stirrups (two point) for a few strides at a time fairly easily, I just really couldn’t get the timing right on posting. We spent the rest of the lesson with me trying to get it before we ran out of time. The next lesson arrived and I got to do a walking-only cool-down with the horse while the next lesson was tacking up their horses.

Then the scariest part of the whole lesson happened: I was asked to dismount. You may laugh, but this horse was 5’8”+ off the ground at the haunches and I had no idea what I was doing. This was _not_ something it had occurred to me to try to figure out how to do ahead of time. 

Swinging my leg over I kicked poor Dragon in the hindquarters with my heel trying to get my leg over before sliding down. She very graciously did not seem to hold it against me, but I felt bad. I was able to give her a couple more treats before she was off to her next lesson (where I think she probably got her wish to be able to do some jumping).

Jill told me I did very, very well for a beginner. I paid my lesson fee and we set up a time for the next week.

*Key Thoughts:*


 Dragon was probably the perfect lesson horse for me personally. I actually loved the fact that she had a bit of an opinion on what we were going to do - both because she responded to such subtle cues and because her gentle testing of boundaries gave me a bit of practice in being gently assertive. I’m not sure this would have been so great for a more nervous rider - but then, I’m not sure she would have been as assertive if I hadn't consciously tried to pull her attention from paying attention to Jill to paying attention to me. She very much seemed to change attitude based on what I was doing up there. I got to use the cues for ‘stop’ and ‘slow down’ about twice as much as anything else - which I am very glad of, as that practice was quite useful. Overall, this was a major confidence-builder. 


 Let’s be honest, I’m falling a bit in love with my lesson horse. I’ve already decided at this point that Dragon is basically a dream horse. She’s not mine, and knowing a bit of Jill’s philosophy I suspect I will be on a lot of different horses over the course of my training - but right now I know that in the distant future if I think about getting a horse I will want Jill to help me find and train it. I really liked Jill as a lesson instructor - but based on Dragon I kinda love her as a horse agent/trainer. 


 Jill’s constant and attentive vigilance is what really makes me, especially looking back in retrospect, feel safe. She was actually fairly quiet during the lesson proper - not trying to yell corrections out at me constantly the way I often saw on youtube. She actually even explained this at one point, saying she’d rather just give me a couple things to focus on getting right at a time rather than picking at every little detail at once. She commented once about keeping my heels down but mostly just let me get a feel for riding. She also caught that speed-up hardly two seconds after it happened, and seemed to notice/respond to any time I either did something very well or was even slightly uncertain. Her only other real correction was encouraging me when I ended up having to really _pull_ the reins to get Dragon to halt. I felt I moved *very* fast this lesson, but I also felt very safe throughout and I am very happy with the way Jill walked that line. I think she is probably a great trainer _for me_. We both seemed very happy with each other. 


 I can definitely feel what Dragon is going to do before she does it. Describing how exactly is a bit hard - but it’s not subtle, at least with her. I can feel both what she’s doing and what she really _wants_ to do. I thought it might just be me projecting things - but there’s a definite and real feeling there that’s pretty darn clear. I just need to be careful to be sure I'm reading it correctly. I now think I understand "I want to go faster" and "I'm about to go faster" _very_ well. 


 If the goal of this lesson was confidence building and assessment, I think that worked. I am far, far ahead of where I expected to be at this point and definitely thinking that this will be a good sport for me. I am not sure one lesson a week is going to be enough. I am giddy to the point of dancing around like a fool. I need to keep this a little in check so I don’t go horse-crazy.


*Trainer Assigned Homework:*

 Work on heel flexibility by standing on a stair and dropping my heels down and doing toe-touching exercises.


*Self-Assigned Homework: *



 Try to academically figure out the timing and correct posture on posting trot. Right now I only 50% get it. I need to watch people who are good at this so I can figure out how exactly I’m supposed to be moving. 


 See what is sore over the next few days and start looking at building a fitness routine around that.


 Start pre-researching how to stay on for canter, so should that come up I am prepared. We blasted through everything I had pre-researched in basically the first lesson… I need to start looking into the next steps if I want to stay nicely ahead. 


 Seriously think about requesting twice-a-week lessons. Look at my financial situation and decide if that is a reasonable thing to look into.


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## Cammey

Avna said:


> Please rethink the "don't need a lazy streak". You'll be a beginner for a long time, believe me. If you have a safe slow horse of your own (or lease), you will learn so much faster than having to use other people's horses on their schedule not yours.


Fair Point - and I do 100% agree on being a beginner for a long time. The key point of difference was more how long it will be before I'm seriously looking into horse ownership. Specifically, I want to be very, very sure that this is a lifelong interest before making that sort of commitment. Putting barriers out there like saying I need to be at a certain skill level before I look at ownership is one way I'm trying to keep my enthusiasm relatively in check. I also have about zero idea just how far I want to take all this at this point or even in exactly what directions I want to go - if my interest turns out to be trail riding that's going to require something very different than if I fall in love with dressage or eventing. There are just so many unknowns at this point. 

I also am already seeing your point about learning faster with leasing/buying rather than having to use other people's horses. It has occurred to me that getting time in the saddle practicing is going to be something I am going to have to think about addressing. This may push me towards leasing/owning sooner than I'd feel fully comfortable really managing the sort of horse I have envisioned in my mind. 

Also, to clarify: it's not that I am looking for the "excitement" of a badly-mannered, untrained, or 'project' horse by *any* stretch of the imagination. It's also not that I'm looking to skimp on $$ by looking at an OTTB (board is the same regardless of what horse I get, and that's the big expense to me). I'm also definitely not looking to buy a horse and then assume I'll somehow learn to be ready for it after I buy it - that's how a horse gets wrecked or I get hurt. I've broken enough bones in my life not to be eager to do it again needlessly. 

It's mostly just that I want a horse who is enthusiastic and happy to be doing whatever it is we end up doing and the thought of getting a 'starter' horse I might grow out of seems kind of sad to me. This might just be a reality I need to deal with - or (as I'm starting to think) I might want to consider _leasing_ something nice and gentle so I can get a lot more riding time in for now while I try to get good enough to make my dreams reasonable.

Again though - I'm at *very early* stages of learning here and may well come around to everyone's wisdom as I get a bit more experience under my feet.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582

Subbing, and welcome to horses!

I'm also a beginner (been around horses for just over a year), but you're getting to take lessons (which I don't), so I'm excited to see what goes on with you! I'll be looking forward to updates.


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## Prairie

First welcome to the world of horses! I'm sure you will enjoy the adventure of becoming an accomplished equestrian just based on your first lesson. You already seem to have a good feel for the horse, understanding that it is your weight, seat, legs, and core that control the horse, not the reins!


A simple example of just how valuable those been there, done that easy going horses are.......5 years ago I bought a paint mare for my 2 oldest granddaughters who wanted to learn to ride (Mom is an excellent rider but her horse is too hot for beginners). Then the grandsons learned that my hubby (not their biological grandfather since my first husband died) rides so they wanted to ride too, but only if he would teach them, not Mom or me. Today that old mare is teaching 6 kids how to cut cattle! That old mare has taught the kids responsibility, compassion, time management skills, scheduling so everybody can ride, giving 110%, and more. The mare I bought for their beginner lessons is now teaching them advanced skills, demanding more from each child as she'he progresses while taking excellent care of the younger ones.


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## jgnmoose

Great read on your first lesson, really enjoyed it and well written.

You are going to learn a lot, and sounds like you have a good lesson horse to start with.

Horses absolutely pick up on what you are thinking and feeling. I'm not 100% that telepathy exists, but if it does, horses are experts in it.


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## jgnmoose

Cammey said:


> Also, to clarify: it's not that I am looking for the "excitement" of a badly-mannered, untrained, or 'project' horse by *any* stretch of the imagination. It's also not that I'm looking to skimp on $$ by looking at an OTTB (board is the same regardless of what horse I get, and that's the big expense to me). I'm also definitely not looking to buy a horse and then assume I'll somehow learn to be ready for it after I buy it - that's how a horse gets wrecked or I get hurt. I've broken enough bones in my life not to be eager to do it again needlessly.
> 
> It's mostly just that I want a horse who is enthusiastic and happy to be doing whatever it is we end up doing and the thought of getting a 'starter' horse I might grow out of seems kind of sad to me. This might just be a reality I need to deal with - or (as I'm starting to think) I might want to consider _leasing_ something nice and gentle so I can get a lot more riding time in for now while I try to get good enough to make my dreams reasonable..


"Lazy Horse" isn't the most inspiring description, granted lol.

I'll give you an example of what I consider the "perfect horse" for someone to build confidence on. Not that your lesson horse doesn't sound good, she sounds great. 

This horse is a 16 year old Arabian Gelding that is about 15h tall and has been all over Texas. He's been on just about any state park trail, sorted cattle, and taken experienced riders and beginners to a lot of shows in everything from Hunter to Team Penning. 

He is "lazy" in that he will only go as fast as you ask for as long as you ask. As soon as your butt slows down he does too. He'll do any gait you ask but you have to "ride" him to maintain it. 

This horse likes people and likes being ridden. He will do whatever he wants with a beginner who doesn't know what they are doing, but it is never dangerous.

Compared to my Mare who is young, and athletic, she has a big engine and a bigger gas tank. She is a really good horse, she tries hard and wants to please you. If you swing your hips and lean forward she will gallop. That means GO! and she likes to go fast. Her stop is so hard she will scare you a little sometimes lol. 

All I mean by "a little lazy". 

Great journal, please keep us updated.


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## tinyliny

I think few people approach learning to ride with as much focus as you seem to have. and, being that you are athletic, that's a huge plus. 
now, forgive me if I am way out in left field, but . . . if patience is not one of your God given natural attributes, then you are about to aquire it!


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## StephaniHren

I think you've got a very clinical, research-based approach to horses... which is great in some ways (good on you for wanting to go into things with as much knowledge as you can!), but bad in others.

jgnmongoose is right that the best thing you can spend your money on right now is lessons with a good trainer. The best instructors/trainers don't just teach you how to post/find your leads/count your stride/not eat dirt over the fences, they teach you the mechanics of the horse in a way that allows you to adapt to new situations on your own. It's my trainer's goal to give me all of the tools I need to communicate and correct my horse when she's not there to watch me (which is especially important since my horse is pretty green in the arena). Finding someone that can guide you in a way that teaches you the foundations of horsemanship is paramount to becoming a skilled horseperson.

But I think you should really think about how you're approaching horses. It sounds to me like you might be getting a little ahead of yourself. Horses are a skill that requires a lot of practice and dedication. There's a reason most of us measure our experience in decades. I'm not trying to discourage you, but horses are, above all, a very humbling experience.

Honestly, I feel like you're jumping the gun on a lot of different decisions that you shouldn't even be close to making yet.

I don't think it's fair to make a real decision on western vs. English (not to mention the disciplines within those broad categories) when you've only been on one ride. Sure, you can have an idea of which one you'd like to start with, but above all I believe that horseback riding is a practice that demands an open mind and the ability to be flexible in not only your discipline, but in learning in general. I rode western for ~8 years, recently restarted English (hunter ring, specifically), and I still have no clue where I'll end up.

I don't think it's fair to fall in love with a breed, when you have almost no experience with horses in general. Videos can only show you so much. If I was just going off of videos, I'd be the world's biggest OTTB fan, too. For _years_ I thought I wanted one. Hell, I thought I wanted one a couple of months ago when I was looking to buy, but my trainer was wonderful and reminded me that, in reality, I may love the look of the OTTB, but I truly love spunky Welsh ponies, hardy breeds like the Norwegian Fjord, or a level-headed American Paint.

I don't think it's fair to rule out "lazy" horses, when you're not even close to the point where you can even think about owning a horse (or know what it's like to ride a "lazy" horse, for that matter). I've been riding for probably around 10 years now (there were some gaps, so I'm guesstimating), and as someone that owned a young, high energy horse that was too much for me, I can personally say that there's nothing worse than buying the flashy sport-type horse and then being scared to death to take her out for a ride alone. My current horse is 7 years old and, despite being arena green, has the mellowest personality known to man (he clocks in at a 1 or a 2 on the Dream Horse scale). He's got more whoa than go, but I would never rule him out because nothing beats a horse you can trust with anything.

(Personal vendetta: to call riding a horse with a lazy streak a "crutch" is beyond insulting. If you think my "lazy" horse doesn't take skill to ride, you've never tried to convince a 1,000 pound animal to get in front of your leg two strides out from a fence. My horse has his moments, but he's just like the more forward horses you described: enthusiastic and happy to be doing whatever it is we end up doing, even if it takes some convincing.)

I don't think it's fair to say you're falling in love with your lesson horse, when you've only had one lesson on her and haven't tried any other horses. I've ridden 50+ lesson horses and, looking back, do you know how many I can solidly say I loved? One, maybe two. I learned things from all of them, but you don't bond with a horse in one lesson. You bond with a horse after you fall off it going over an oxer, and then get back on and come back around to tackle it again _together_. You bond with a horse when you have a bad day at work and come to the stable and cry in its mane while it nuzzles your shoulder. You bond with a horse when you walk it through the night to fight off colic. You bond with a horse when you get to the point where you sit in the saddle, and it's not horseback riding, it's a fusion of souls. It takes hundreds of hours to build that bond, _at least_.

I don't think you should mistake a well-trained, responsive horse, for a horse that shares some unshakeable bond with you. That's a recipe for heartbreak later on, when you realize that Dragon is doing what she was trained to do, not that you have some sort of supernatural connection with her. It's normal for a (good) horse to respond to intentions and shifts of weight. It's one of the awesome things about horses!

I don't think it's fair to be so blindly in love with your trainer after one session, when you don't really know what sort of things you should be looking for in a trainer (outside of getting along with them). To think things like "in the distant future if I think about getting a horse I will want Jill to help me find and train it" is, well, presumptuous. You have a long time before you get to that point, and while you had a good first lesson, I don't think you should make the mistake of thinking Jill is the end all be all of trainers. Learn everything you can from her, but don't treat her word like gospel.

I think you need to take a few steps back. You say you only want to ride English, you immediately decide to love OTTB's (the sport horse _dujour _right now), you were disappointed the stable wasn't as fancy as you expected, you think the lesson horse looks like something from Grand Prix, you're thinking about YouTube videos instead of focusing on the instructor, and you feel exceedingly clever about how well your doing... in my opinion, you seem a little pompous, like horses are notch you want to put in your belt/a skill you want to gain, not a potential passion that you're pursuing.

I will say that I'm glad you're so enthusiastic! I know I'm coming across as harsh, I just really think you need to slow down. The idea of "academically" figuring out the timing/posture of a post (let alone the correct diagonal) is somewhat silly (even though I can see how watching videos would help). If you're definitely interested in one of the world's most expensive, dangerous sports, more lessons is always great! The amount you learn goes up exponentially the more you're riding every week.

But like Tiny said, if patience is not one of your God given natural attributes, then you're in for a really disappointing ride.

*edit*: my god, I wrote a novel, I'm so sorry D:


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## gottatrot

I love your journal.

I will offer some counter points to those you've been offered.
From what you've written, I believe you are taking a good approach to riding and horse ownership. As we've discussed on other threads, there are different types of thinkers and learners, and if you can learn by reading and studying prior to riding, you can improve much faster than by only learning in your lessons. I've learned some things that helped me improve by leaps and bounds just by reading a concept in a book or a quote.

As for what's been said about starting with a slow or gentle horse type versus another, that all depends. For most people, yes, that is what is best. Chances are that you are not most people. You don't know yet, since you are just beginning. But keep your mind open to the possibility that a slow and easy horse may not be best for you. Your other hobby makes me suspect you are not like most people. I personally have never been contented with a horse that needs to be prodded to go. The horses I get along best with, from the time I was a beginner (although I did not start as an adult) were the ones that required cues to slow and stop but not to go. 

For one thing, most beginners and even many experienced riders are nervous about getting on such a tall horse as you had your first ride on. Most beginners are not able to relax if a horse speeds up, or to trot on their first lesson while still analyzing what is going on mentally. Your past experiences may have given you more resources to keep thinking through circumstances where others might stop thinking due to fear. This will be a great asset in learning to ride.

As I've written in my journal, my favorite horses before getting experienced were Arabians and TBs, and I've tailored my experiences and learning to deal with those types since that is where my interests lie. I also have written about how I tend to love every horse I ride, and see all their great qualities as I'm riding them. Of all the horses I've ridden, I've only "not cared much" for two that I remember. So this may be a personality trait you have. 
For me, it is not that I feel I have developed a deep bond with each horse, because I am far too analytical and logical for that. It's just that I find horses to have great individual qualities and find many things to appreciate in each one I ride. 
To me it sounds like you have a great instructor and lesson horse, both may be right up your alley which would seem a good way to start out in the horse world. Keep us updated!


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## HombresArablegacy

This is a great journal, and more importantly, it could be the journey of a lifetime if you have what it takes to make it so. I really admire the thought and research that you have put into trying to learn about riding in advance of your first lesson. And that you really enjoyed yourself.

Now, there are as many opinions about the equestrian life as there are members on this forum; but the one thing we all have in common is an undeniable love of, and passion for horses. Some have grown up with horses, some started at different times in their lives, but regardless of the when and how, we're all hooked, addicted, can't imagine a life that doesn't involve horses. 

I've been horse crazy since I was a toddler, read every classic book ever written about horses, glued myself to the tv every time My Friend Flicka, Fury, Mr Ed was on (lol, I just dated myself) Made a beeline to the pony ride at the fair every year. In grade school I pretended that I was a horse during recess! 
I was fortunate to have the best friend in the world as a teen, she had horses and we rode bareback everywhere. We're still best friends 50 years later. But I digress...

All I ever wanted was a horse. Finally got my first Arabian at 32. Didn't know squat about how to care for one, but my desire to learn everything I could was all encompassing. 32 years later, and I'm still on that journey. What I guess I'm trying to say is horses have to be in your blood. If you truly have a passion for them, are willing to immerse yourself in every aspect, learning to properly handle, feed, care for, learn their very distinct language, well, I could go on and on. 

If you're willing to" eat, sleep and drink horses" ( and work a full time job to support the habit)
If you find your heart swell and flutter at the sight of horses running in a field, tails flagged, reveling in the sheer glory of being a horse, if all your worries about your life melt away when you step foot in a barn and clean stalls, if, when you bury your face in a horses neck and find the scent to be the most delightful of perfumes, and also accept stepping in horse manure as being completely natural,and if you truly enjoy the time spent learning, and want more more more, THEN you will know you are meant to be a member of the world of horses. 

Looks lIke I've written a mini novel here, lol. You'll probably get a lot more from others here, as there's probably over a thousand years cumulative experience with horses from the members here.

Welcome to the forum!


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## egrogan

Just wanted to chime in and say I totally disagree that you sound "pompous" (and honestly, if you do, who cares, it's your journal!! ) The beauty of a journal is that you can look back over time and see how much you've grown- when I read mine, I blush a little at how naive I was in some of the things I worked on (or aspired to work on) with my horse early on, but mostly I enjoy being able to see how much we've grown, even with some missteps and false starts along the way.

I too am a learner by reading and observing. I have no horsey friends or family. I've learned a lot by reading this forum and books/articles. I like to start at https://www.thehorse.com/ as many of those articles are summaries of more technical research papers, and also link you to the research. I too sometimes find myself out on a ride, thinking about a discussion I've read here on the HF and using some of that knowledge as I work through a problem. 

I bought my first horse at 32 as well, after becoming an adult "re-rider" a couple of years earlier. I rode in lessons for about a year, then free leased my future horse for about 6 months before committing to buying her. I'm glad I had that steady ramp up period with her. She is not "lazy," but she is generally quiet. She has a good foundation and is ultimately a kind and willing horse, perfect to learn and make mistakes on without dangerous consequences. That said, she can be opinionated and make sure I'm really committed to what I'm asking- otherwise, she will challenge a request.

I think @tinyliny is right when she says that patience is a key to this journey. I am by temperament extraordinarily impatient, and that just doesn't work with horses, particularly when one or both of you are learning. It just takes time to muddle through trying different approaches while you find one that works. Riding a lot of horses early on in your lesson experience will go a long way towards building your "bag of tricks"- but some days, _none _of those tricks seem to work, and you just have to have the patience to realize tomorrow is another day and you'll try again. 

And as you're picking up, horses can be very sensitive to subtle body language. I no longer go ride after I've had a particularly difficult or stressful day at work- I'm not capable of shaking it out of my system before I ride, and my horse mirrors those emotions. 

At any rate, this is your journal, so I'll stop rambling. Have fun, ride as much as you can right now, and let us know how it's going!


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## jenkat86

I've really enjoyed reading this. I'm excited for you, OP. 

"The second was that while weaving through the jumps Dragon very clearly kept trying to line up on them. I don’t think she thought that was what I was asking her to do - it was more a suggestion of something more fun we could try. I had to politely tell her that no, sadly, today we would not be going over the jumps - even the cute little ones she was trying to line me up on."

This little blip you added here...this makes me excited for you. You are willing to look at the horse as a partner. Not many beginners are at this level. Shoot, not many advanced horsemen are at this level.


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## 6gun Kid

Welcome to the forum and what I hope is a long relationship with horses. I actually am a little jealous, I have never not had horses (is that grammatically torturous?), I do not remember learning to ride. So to see your excitement from your first time is quite endearing. Good luck and I look forward to your updates.


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## cbar

Congrats on a successful first lesson!!! I'm excited to read about the rest of your journey. 

One thing everyone on this forum enjoys is pictures - so if you keep having lessons with Dragon, we would be thrilled to see a pic of her


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## greentree

I thoroughly enjoyed the reading! I think you did such a wonderful job of laying it out.

I completely understand your process of learning; it reminds me of me. Mine was a LONG time ago, though, and only on Star Trek could we have dreamed of watching something like youtube!!! 

I got my first horse at 9. I had already read. eVERY book in the libraries, both school and public. "Reading" seems like thge wrong word, because I had STUDIED them. And THOUGHT about them. And IMAGINED myself IN them, to the point that when I went for my first REAL lesson, I could ride. 

My BFF had taken lessons for a couple of years, and when she went to the second lesson with me, I got to go overva crossrail jump, and canter, but she had to keep trotting without jumping. 

I understand. The whole thing....welcome to the Horse Forum!!!


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## Cammey

Responses to lots of people below...



BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 said:


> I'm also a beginner (been around horses for just over a year), but you're getting to take lessons (which I don't), so I'm excited to see what goes on with you! I'll be looking forward to updates.


Cool. Pleased to meet you! Out of curiosity how does one even start _without_ taking lessons? That had to be just an incredibly difficult way to start. 





Prairie said:


> A simple example of just how valuable those been there, done that easy going horses are.......5 years ago I bought a paint mare for my 2 oldest granddaughters who wanted to learn to ride (Mom is an excellent rider but her horse is too hot for beginners). Then the grandsons learned that my hubby (not their biological grandfather since my first husband died) rides so they wanted to ride too, but only if he would teach them, not Mom or me. Today that old mare is teaching 6 kids how to cut cattle! That old mare has taught the kids responsibility, compassion, time management skills, scheduling so everybody can ride, giving 110%, and more. The mare I bought for their beginner lessons is now teaching them advanced skills, demanding more from each child as she'he progresses while taking excellent care of the younger ones.


Thank you for the welcome. Cutting cattle sounds like you have access to a ranch, which is incredibly cool. How old are the little ones?






jgnmoose said:


> Horses absolutely pick up on what you are thinking and feeling. I'm not 100% that telepathy exists, but if it does, horses are experts in it.


I’m very open minded on this point. There definitely is a tremendous amount of understanding and ‘feel’ there. I never understood what people meant when they said there was a ‘feel’ to horses - but yeah, it was pretty remarkable. 

The thing that really surprised me, and is still confusing me a bit, is how much nuance there was. I wasn’t surprised I could tell if she was say - excited, angry, etc. There’s a lot of subtle body language involved there. But the distinct impression of ‘what do you want from me’ when I got my halt cue wrong was… almost a bit eerie. 

This is one of those things that’s just going to the back of my mind until I have more experience with it and learn how much I can trust it vs. how much I need to look at other things. But right now it was a pretty special experience which I’m hoping to explore more on.






tinyliny said:


> I think few people approach learning to ride with as much focus as you seem to have. and, being that you are athletic, that's a huge plus.
> now, forgive me if I am way out in left field, but . . . if patience is not one of your God given natural attributes, then you are about to aquire it!


Honest answer? I’m a mixed bag on it. It really depends how much I enjoy something and how much I feel I’m getting out of it. Either love or logic can make me patient - but if it’s something I’m emotionally invested in (rather than just logically invested in) then my enthusiasm tend to spill out in other ways I tangentially think might be useful. This is how this journal came about - too much enthusiasm and interest with little place to go, so I’m trying to do something interesting and potentially constructive with it. (If nothing else, I’m getting a lot of thoughts and feedback from a lot of other people who have been here reflecting a lot of different views - that in itself is great). 

But I will say that one of the quirks I have - and have always had - is a tendency to approach leisure activities with a sort of ‘how do I improve’ attitude. This has always been true for me - I take a huge amount of joy in working to better myself and seeking out small victories. I don’t expect this to be linear or quick - In this process and setbacks and challenges are _required_ because they give me things to work on - but the _process_ and focus is what I really love. 

Several days now I’ve spent wishing I could practice and solidify my lessons. A lot of what I managed in class I did _once_ and I wish I had more time to really work on it. As such I’m already torn between seeing if my instructor feels moving to twice-a-week lessons would be useful to me and waiting out my initial enthusiasm burst to see if I still am this dedicated in a month.

Right now people on here are getting a lot of insights into my enthusiasm and feelings at-the-moment, which I’m letting myself enjoy because it’s a lot of fun. I am just as curious to see how this normalizes out as everyone else. 






StephaniHren said:


> I think you've got a very clinical, research-based approach to horses... which is great in some ways (good on you for wanting to go into things with as much knowledge as you can!), but bad in others.
> 
> ...
> 
> But I think you should really think about how you're approaching horses. It sounds to me like you might be getting a little ahead of yourself. Horses are a skill that requires a lot of practice and dedication. There's a reason most of us measure our experience in decades. I'm not trying to discourage you, but horses are, above all, a very humbling experience.
> 
> Honestly, I feel like you're jumping the gun on a lot of different decisions that you shouldn't even be close to making yet.


So the thing to keep in mind with a lot of this is that what I’m really doing is picking a direction to go in more than anything else - I’m hardly expecting anything to be final. I actually *had* to make a decision English vs. Western because all stables around here teach one or the other - not both. Likewise, most lesson places only teach a sub-set of disciplines. So in picking where I wanted to take lessons I was also confronted with at least looking at what each of these disciplines were. Part of this is also just approach - I tend to like having a direction. It doesn’t mean that direction won’t change (oh, it will) but I like having an idea to work towards or investigate. 

The chances that I’ll end up following your path - spending years in one area only to jump over to another - is high. None of these directions are lifetime commitments, but I do like looking to where I might want to go. 



StephaniHren said:


> I don't think it's fair to fall in love with a breed...
> 
> I don't think it's fair to rule out "lazy" horses….
> 
> I don't think it's fair to say you're falling in love with your lesson horse...
> 
> I don't think you should mistake a well-trained, responsive horse, for a horse that shares some unshakeable bond with you...
> 
> I don't think it's fair to be so blindly in love with your trainer after one session…
> 
> I think you need to take a few steps back. You say you only want to ride English, you immediately decide to love OTTB's (the sport horse _dujour _right now), you were disappointed the stable wasn't as fancy as you expected, you think the lesson horse looks like something from Grand Prix, you're thinking about YouTube videos instead of focusing on the instructor, and you feel exceedingly clever about how well your doing... in my opinion, you seem a little pompous, like horses are notch you want to put in your belt/a skill you want to gain, not a potential passion that you're pursuing.


Honestly, I think some of this is a matter of communication styles. Right now in this journal I am going through my various thoughts/feelings at the moment that I’m having them - not making lifetime commitments. You seem to be offended or concerned by me having feelings on things, which I admittedly find a bit unexpected. 

To clarify on one point: I am actually 100% sure I *don’t* share any sort of special bond with Dragon - as is quite evidenced by the fact she kept looking over to Jill throughout the lesson. But I am also thrilled at the fact that, to my surprise, the reality of my experience was much, much closer to my head-fantasy than I had been expecting. I walked in there with expectations that in 3-4 months I would hopefully be walking/trotting and that I would probably be doing it on a draft horse because they’re large and quiet. What I ended up with was a really amazing experience that I didn’t see coming. 

A lot of my post was exploring the concept of expectations vs. reality and talking about how I felt through the experience. I’m exploring concepts right now in a lot of ways - and I find that really exhilarating. 

As far as me being pompous - not quite sure what to say on that one. This is a journal so yes, it is a lot about me. I also very much do approach my interests in terms of self-improvement. I actually don’t see the differentiation between it being a passion I’m perusing and a skill I want to gain - to me these are inexorably tied. You might not like this approach, but gaining knowledge/skill on something is precisely how I show and express my passions. 

I think this may just be a case of communication style + different ways we approach our interests. 



StephaniHren said:


> I will say that I'm glad you're so enthusiastic! I know I'm coming across as harsh, I just really think you need to slow down. The idea of "academically" figuring out the timing/posture of a post (let alone the correct diagonal) is somewhat silly (even though I can see how watching videos would help). If you're definitely interested in one of the world's most expensive, dangerous sports, more lessons is always great! The amount you learn goes up exponentially the more you're riding every week.


For me whenever I’ve done any sort of athletic activity I always _picture_ how I want my body to move before I do it - and how I am going to react to each circumstance. I then follow through on that set of motions, adapting for whatever the reality is when I come into the situation. 

This sort of visualize->do style of learning is pretty common in a lot of activities I’ve been in that involve a mixture of technique/movement. I first picked it up in gymnastics as a kid, then again in rapier fighting, then again during my brief stint trying out ballet. In rock climbing it’s incredibly common - probably most people who do the sport use some variant of the technique. 

So naturally, coming up on something new it’s going to be the first thing I try. To be honest I was incredibly pleased with how well I felt that went for me. I was able to issue ‘corrections’ to myself as I felt my muscles working, and I already sort of had a ‘frame’ I wanted my body in before I ever got onto the horse. Now, will that keep working? I honestly have no idea - but based on my first bit of lessons I think it’s worth giving a try. I don’t think trying to understand the trot and posting trot before I work on doing it silly at all. In fact to be really honest I think I personally *must* understand it academically before I’ll ever be able to do it physically. This is just how I’ve always learned.

As to more lessons… yeah, I am coming to that conclusion.






gottatrot said:


> I love your journal.
> 
> I will offer some counter points to those you've been offered.
> From what you've written, I believe you are taking a good approach to riding and horse ownership. As we've discussed on other threads, there are different types of thinkers and learners, and if you can learn by reading and studying prior to riding, you can improve much faster than by only learning in your lessons. I've learned some things that helped me improve by leaps and bounds just by reading a concept in a book or a quote.


I’m definitely going to start poking through some of your past posts and your journals. Honestly, it sounds like your learning style and mine might be a bit more in alignment. I’d love to hear any favorite resources you might have so I can take a peek. 



gottatrot said:


> As for what's been said about starting with a slow or gentle horse type versus another, that all depends. For most people, yes, that is what is best. Chances are that you are not most people. You don't know yet, since you are just beginning. But keep your mind open to the possibility that a slow and easy horse may not be best for you. Your other hobby makes me suspect you are not like most people. I personally have never been contented with a horse that needs to be prodded to go. The horses I get along best with, from the time I was a beginner (although I did not start as an adult) were the ones that required cues to slow and stop but not to go.


I appreciate this honestly. I was beginning to think I was some sort of crazy thrill-seeker based on the responses I’ve been getting. I actually consider myself pretty low on the adrenaline-lover scale by the standards of people I’ve been surrounded with - I’m usually more the analytical no-nonsense one. I just was really heartened by the feeling of a creature who was just as thrilled to be there as I was. 

Really, I just need more experiences and more diversity. 



gottatrot said:


> As I've written in my journal, my favorite horses before getting experienced were Arabians and TBs, and I've tailored my experiences and learning to deal with those types since that is where my interests lie. I also have written about how I tend to love every horse I ride, and see all their great qualities as I'm riding them. Of all the horses I've ridden, I've only "not cared much" for two that I remember. So this may be a personality trait you have.
> 
> For me, it is not that I feel I have developed a deep bond with each horse, because I am far too analytical and logical for that. It's just that I find horses to have great individual qualities and find many things to appreciate in each one I ride.


I am going to go over and read your journal and your notes on learning to deal with those types of horses. As mentioned: I’m very interested in any feedback or thoughts you might have, as your approach and mine, based on what little I have heard so far, seems to be in alignment. 

As far as developing a bond with a horse - I think your view here nails it. Honestly, I’m not saying that Dragon and I have some special bond - far from it. It’s just that I find her amazing and admire her - I love both her personality and the skill to which she was trained. Dragon sort of embodied my hopes and dreams for what riding a horse would be like - and I think I will always be thankful that was my first riding experience. 



gottatrot said:


> To me it sounds like you have a great instructor and lesson horse, both may be right up your alley which would seem a good way to start out in the horse world. Keep us updated!


Thank you. I will. 






HombresArablegacy said:


> I've been horse crazy since I was a toddler, read every classic book ever written about horses, glued myself to the tv every time My Friend Flicka, Fury, Mr Ed was on (lol, I just dated myself) Made a beeline to the pony ride at the fair every year. In grade school I pretended that I was a horse during recess!
> I was fortunate to have the best friend in the world as a teen, she had horses and we rode bareback everywhere. We're still best friends 50 years later. But I digress...
> 
> ...
> 
> What I guess I'm trying to say is horses have to be in your blood. If you truly have a passion for them, are willing to immerse yourself in every aspect, learning to properly handle, feed, care for, learn their very distinct language, well, I could go on and on.


Thank you for the warm welcome. If you’re familiar with the term, right now I feel like I’m kind of in the new-relationship-energy stage of discovery. I’m fascinated and swooning. I’m exploring. I’m curious. I’m excited.

Let’s *not* go too much into my childhood on this forum - but unfortunately it doesn’t involve happiness and horses. My life has really been a steady upward progression of things getting better. I’ve ended up discovering a _lot_ of things later in life that other people got to learn about as children. On one hand, I could lament my youth - or I could do as I’ve tended to do and just appreciated how much more depth I can get into and explore a lot of these areas with an adult’s understanding for and appreciation of the world. 

I don’t know if I have ‘horses in my blood’. I do know that I am currently thrilled at the prospect of finding out.


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## Cammey

More Responses....




egrogan said:


> The beauty of a journal is that you can look back over time and see how much you've grown- when I read mine, I blush a little at how naive I was in some of the things I worked on (or aspired to work on) with my horse early on, but mostly I enjoy being able to see how much we've grown, even with some missteps and false starts along the way.


I think this is very much how I see it - this is a journey which I am starting on. I certainly hope I view myself as naive future years from now - if not, then what have I learned? 



egrogan said:


> I too am a learner by reading and observing. I have no horsey friends or family. I've learned a lot by reading this forum and books/articles. I like to start at https://www.thehorse.com/ as many of those articles are summaries of more technical research papers, and also link you to the research. I too sometimes find myself out on a ride, thinking about a discussion I've read here on the HF and using some of that knowledge as I work through a problem.


Thank you! This sounds like an excellent resource to put some time/energy into looking at. I am *very* interested in things people feel are good resources right now. 

I am sympathetic about no horsey friends/family. I have three but they’re on the other side of the country and I am trying not to flood them. My non-horsey friends are being very patient with me right now… 



egrogan said:


> I think @tinyliny is right when she says that patience is a key to this journey. I am by temperament extraordinarily impatient, and that just doesn't work with horses, particularly when one or both of you are learning. It just takes time to muddle through trying different approaches while you find one that works. Riding a lot of horses early on in your lesson experience will go a long way towards building your "bag of tricks"- but some days, _none _of those tricks seem to work, and you just have to have the patience to realize tomorrow is another day and you'll try again.


There are a couple different sorts of patience I think. I’m pretty decent at patience-at-the-time. I’m less great at ‘I’m really looking forward to X but there’s nothing I can do to affect it right now’. We’ll see how that all shakes out in the long run. I do agree on the riding a lot of horses - on one hand I’m really, really loving my current lesson horse. But everyone’s opinions on this are also getting me curious to see how I feel about the horses a lot of people are recommending. 



egrogan said:


> And as you're picking up, horses can be very sensitive to subtle body language. I no longer go ride after I've had a particularly difficult or stressful day at work- I'm not capable of shaking it out of my system before I ride, and my horse mirrors those emotions.
> 
> At any rate, this is your journal, so I'll stop rambling. Have fun, ride as much as you can right now, and let us know how it's going!


This is high on my to-learn list actually. It might be that the early-am-Sunday lessons are a blessing in disguise. The barn is also ~25 minutes from my house, so hopefully that will let me shake things out between stopping work and getting on horseback. (I do work a fairly high-stress job a lot of the time). 

Ah well, we’ll see. Thank you for the warm words. 






jenkat86 said:


> I've really enjoyed reading this. I'm excited for you, OP.
> 
> "The second was that while weaving through the jumps Dragon very clearly kept trying to line up on them. I don’t think she thought that was what I was asking her to do - it was more a suggestion of something more fun we could try. I had to politely tell her that no, sadly, today we would not be going over the jumps - even the cute little ones she was trying to line me up on."
> 
> This little blip you added here...this makes me excited for you. You are willing to look at the horse as a partner. Not many beginners are at this level. Shoot, not many advanced horsemen are at this level.


Thank you! This was honestly the part I really enjoyed with all of it - just how enthusiastic she felt. I’m trying to make sure I don’t over-think or project too much with all of this… but it was also really kind of amazing so I didn’t want to not mention it for fear of sounding a little nuts.







6gun Kid said:


> Welcome to the forum and what I hope is a long relationship with horses. I actually am a little jealous, I have never not had horses (is that grammatically torturous?), I do not remember learning to ride. So to see your excitement from your first time is quite endearing. Good luck and I look forward to your updates.


Ah, but on the other hand you’ve never had to _not_ have horses. There are things to be envious for either way.  







cbar said:


> Congrats on a successful first lesson!!! I'm excited to read about the rest of your journey.
> 
> One thing everyone on this forum enjoys is pictures - so if you keep having lessons with Dragon, we would be thrilled to see a pic of her


Yeah, I’ve been thinking on this one carefully. On one hand, I really like the anonymity of the internet. I tend to be a fairly private person and if I start posting photos I’m concerned they might get traced back to either the stable or to me. 

On the other hand, I also like pictures. Heck, I’d like to see some videos of my own riding so I can analyze it and see what I can improve. 

I need to think on this one for a bit. 





greentree said:


> I thoroughly enjoyed the reading! I think you did such a wonderful job of laying it out.
> 
> I completely understand your process of learning; it reminds me of me. Mine was a LONG time ago, though, and only on Star Trek could we have dreamed of watching something like youtube!!!
> 
> I got my first horse at 9. I had already read. eVERY book in the libraries, both school and public. "Reading" seems like thge wrong word, because I had STUDIED them. And THOUGHT about them. And IMAGINED myself IN them, to the point that when I went for my first REAL lesson, I could ride.
> 
> My BFF had taken lessons for a couple of years, and when she went to the second lesson with me, I got to go overva crossrail jump, and canter, but she had to keep trotting without jumping.
> 
> I understand. The whole thing....welcome to the Horse Forum!!!


There’s a lot that can be learned from academic texts - though frankly as far as you got it was impressive as heck. I’m mostly just focused on things like basic cues, body posture, how bits work… the mechanics so I can remember what to do when different things happen.

My current expectation is that my next lesson is going to be *mostly* working on posting trot and maybe really working on getting my heel down. So I doubt I’m going to manage to repeat your feat here. 

Still, very very awesome. I know it was years ago, but do you remember any of the things you looked at that you found really useful? Or am I rooting in the depths of too-old memories? (I’m not sure I could remember much I read when I was nine…)


----------



## Avna

I think you are doing great. You have the persistence, energy, physicality to speed ahead. And you are soaking up knowledge from every source. That's good! I often start something with a lot of intense ideas/opinions which have to be modified later with experiences -- that's A-OK. Some people just do it that way.

As far as learning to ride without lessons, it happens like this: "okay, you wanted a horse? Here it is. Go ride it." I was eleven at the time. My parents both worked more than full time (ran a business) in an era (1960's) in which children were typically out of adult supervision doing whatever they felt like, as soon as they set foot outside the schoolyard, until dinner time. I learned with the help of a gang of basically ignorant girls who hung out at the boarding stable. Nobody got lessons, there was no one to take them from. I joined 4-H, that was very helpful; the Horse Project leader lived across the road from us. But I never got any lessons until I was 59 years old and came back to horses after decades of doing other things. 

Lessons are wonderful.


----------



## greentree

Most of the books are LONG gone!! The ones that still stand out are "Schooling for Young Riders" by John Richard Young, which may be available on Amazon, a wester book called "Saddle Up!", but Google cannot find that....

More will come up...


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## cbar

Yah, I'm with you on the anonymity. I tend to not post many pictures (here or on any other social media). Partly b/c I actually don't take many pictures and also b/c I am technologically impaired. 

Even the youtube vids you posted are awesome. Like you, I enjoy watching the videos to soak up any new information that might be helpful/educational. 

The beautiful thing about horses is that the learning never ends. No matter how long I'll be around horses, there are so many things I will and hope to learn.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582

Cammey said:


> Cool. Pleased to meet you! Out of curiosity how does one even start _without_ taking lessons? That had to be just an incredibly difficult way to start.


Glad to meet you too 



Avna said:


> As far as learning to ride without lessons, it happens like this: "okay, you wanted a horse? Here it is. Go ride it." I was eleven at the time. My parents both worked more than full time (ran a business) in an era (1960's) in which children were typically out of adult supervision doing whatever they felt like, as soon as they set foot outside the schoolyard, until dinner time. I learned with the help of a gang of basically ignorant girls who hung out at the boarding stable. Nobody got lessons, there was no one to take them from. I joined 4-H, that was very helpful; the Horse Project leader lived across the road from us. But I never got any lessons until I was 59 years old and came back to horses after decades of doing other things.


As far as learning without lessons, it was a bit like Avna said. At the same time, I guess a better way of putting it would me that I've never had _formal_ lessons. The lady (a friend of mine now) who owns the Paint QH gelding I ride taught me a little of the basics, but only goes as far as "Sit up straight, pull the right/left rein to turn, pull back to stop, do lots of groundwork." LOL. While it's all good starting advice and she's a good rider herself, it's far from a formal or at all in depth way of teaching. Everything else I've learned has pretty much come from here, elsewhere online, and stuff I've picked up on my own.

Oh, and I ride bareback almost 100% of the time, plus I ride that gelding in his halter. All the others I ever ride are ridden either bit-less or in snaffles, with one exception, who's in a short shanked curb (and whose mouth I BARELY touch if I can help it, then it's lightly).  I've recently been trying to learn how to ride more without my body, and it's a work in progress, so you're already doing better than me. :grin:


----------



## Prairie

My grandkids range in age from 2 years to 17 years old, with 3 girls and 4 boys. It's a lively, fun crew! I sold my farm many years ago after my first husband died along with my steers, but my daughter married a farmer so they have a herd of cows to round out their income. 


When is you next lesson? I sure hope you will post about it since you seem to have a real talent for understanding the role of a good rider.


----------



## egrogan

Since you seem tuned in to 'feel' and the ways 'energy' influence a horse, you might put _Centered Riding_ by Sally Swift on your list. For a written "text," she does a lively job of describing how you'll feel if you follow her approach when riding (as well as unmounted, a key step in understanding her recommendations for using your body).

About two decades after I first read that book, I was able to ride in a clinic with one of her former students, and found the written descriptions did really match the feeling in the saddle.


----------



## bsms

You might like VS Littauer's Common Sense Horsemanship. He's in the Showjumping Hall of Fame as an instructor rather than as a rider. Started in the Russian Cavalry pre-WW1, went thru WW1, learned the forward system of riding, moved to the US and taught and developed it further.

I now ride western, with a much longer leg, but I learned riding and a philosophy of riding from him. He doesn't just discuss "position", but explains WHY certain positions affect what he called the essential of riding - fluid balance. 

His book on the history of riding is also thought-provoking: The Development of Modern Riding He quotes at length from his translations of medieval riders, discusses Caprilli and the Forward Seat, and even quotes a guy writing about round pen techniques and "join up" in the 1870s.

The best single book on how to ride a forward seat, in terms of position, is Harry Chamberlin's Riding and Schooling Horses. It was written to instruct a total beginner (in the 1930s). He would write his instructions, she would attempt to follow them, and if she had problems, he would re-write his instructions. He was in multiple Olympics, was sent by the US Army to attend Saumur (French Cavalry School) and the Italian Cavalry School in Tor di Quinto. His book became, almost verbatim, the US Cavalry manual on equitation. A sample:

















​ 
Good luck! :wink:​


----------



## Cammey

Avna said:


> As far as learning to ride without lessons, it happens like this: "okay, you wanted a horse? Here it is. Go ride it." I was eleven at the time. My parents both worked more than full time (ran a business) in an era (1960's) in which children were typically out of adult supervision doing whatever they felt like, as soon as they set foot outside the schoolyard, until dinner time. I learned with the help of a gang of basically ignorant girls who hung out at the boarding stable. Nobody got lessons, there was no one to take them from. I joined 4-H, that was very helpful; the Horse Project leader lived across the road from us. But I never got any lessons until I was 59 years old and came back to horses after decades of doing other things.
> 
> Lessons are wonderful.



You have my admiration, respect, and no small amount of fear. Seriously I have a hard time even picturing it with the resources available today – let alone in the era before the internet made data searching so easy. For me the structures of what to do to get the horse to do X was not something that I sort of natively understood at all, but something I had to put intellectual backing behind. “Lean back to stop” will eventually become part of my muscle memory – but I highly doubt I ever would have just figured it out on my own. 

Right now to be honest, as near-obsessed as I am with horses right now I’m not even sure I can picture getting up on a horse to try _walking_ without a trainer right there. That’s eventually a goal – I want to be able to practice these skills. But I would never have taken this leap without an experienced hand to guide me. 




greentree said:


> Most of the books are LONG gone!! The ones that still stand out are "Schooling for Young Riders" by John Richard Young, which may be available on Amazon, a wester book called "Saddle Up!", but Google cannot find that....


Thank you! Schooling for Young Riders has now been added to my Amazon cart. 




cbar said:


> Yah, I'm with you on the anonymity. I tend to not post many pictures (here or on any other social media). Partly b/c I actually don't take many pictures and also b/c I am technologically impaired.
> 
> Even the youtube vids you posted are awesome. Like you, I enjoy watching the videos to soak up any new information that might be helpful/educational.
> 
> The beautiful thing about horses is that the learning never ends. No matter how long I'll be around horses, there are so many things I will and hope to learn.


Here’s where much of the tech world would highly agree with your opinion on anonymity. I actually work in the software industry and spent a few years in a role that dealt heavily with security (specifically financial data security). I’ve moved on from that and to a more general role – which is good, because it means I have a life outside of work – but the importance of security considerations is just part of the way I approach things. 

I’m actually not being too careful on this forum - it’s not exactly like my growing love of horses is sensitive information – but it’s mostly just habit at this point. 

As to videos: If people like them I'll see if I can find a few of the others I found really fascinating. I'm actually trying not to flood my posts with them, but some have been really very interesting/useful. 

And yes, I am looking forward to the ‘always learning’ aspect as well. I like the fact there’s so much depth and things to explore. Right now there’s a little bit of kid-in-a-candy-store as I try to force myself to narrow down my focus to… oh only a dozen things or so at the same time. 

We’ll see how much luck I have with that. 





BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 said:


> Oh, and I ride bareback almost 100% of the time, plus I ride that gelding in his halter. All the others I ever ride are ridden either bit-less or in snaffles, with one exception, who's in a short shanked curb (and whose mouth I BARELY touch if I can help it, then it's lightly).  I've recently been trying to learn how to ride more without my body, and it's a work in progress, so you're already doing better than me. :grin:


Bareback is one of those things I’m curious about but right now I figure will be a long ways down the road. I am still learning a bit about bits in general – I understand ‘snaffle’ (and was able to recognize one well enough to know that what I was using on my ride was a snaffle with a bit guard) but I had to google 'short shanked curb'. I'm guessing just because it's leveraged it's going to be a more severe bit... but only slightly - both because the shake is short and also because the area you're distributing the force over (the curve) is broader than the snaffle which narrows it down to a point... so _slightly_ but not a lot more severe than a snaffle? 

Ride without your body? Ok, I’m curious in what context you mean by that because it sounds fascinating. Do you mean the bit about very subtly cueing (like the 'just think go' bit) or…? 



Prairie said:


> When is you next lesson? I sure hope you will post about it since you seem to have a real talent for understanding the role of a good rider.


Thank you . My next lesson is tomorrow early morning. I’ll post a corresponding write-up probably a day or two after that for what I did in the week between and then however the lesson itself goes. I’m trying to actually make the writing itself half decent so I’ll need a little time to compile my thoughts and then make sure it’s actually readable.





egrogan said:


> Since you seem tuned in to 'feel' and the ways 'energy' influence a horse, you might put _Centered Riding_ by Sally Swift on your list. For a written "text," she does a lively job of describing how you'll feel if you follow her approach when riding (as well as unmounted, a key step in understanding her recommendations for using your body).
> 
> About two decades after I first read that book, I was able to ride in a clinic with one of her former students, and found the written descriptions did really match the feeling in the saddle.


Alright, now added to my amazon cart because that sounds lovely. I’d love to see a book that puts some of this to words. As mentioned I first learned about riding while _at a meditation retreat_ so I’m fairly familiar with and comfortable with this viewpoint and terminology. I’m also excited to hear about things that can be done unmounted… which admittedly I kinda wish there was more of right now.




bsms said:


> You might like VS Littauer's Common Sense Horsemanship. He's in the Showjumping Hall of Fame as an instructor rather than as a rider. Started in the Russian Cavalry pre-WW1, went thru WW1, learned the forward system of riding, moved to the US and taught and developed it further.
> 
> I now ride western, with a much longer leg, but I learned riding and a philosophy of riding from him. He doesn't just discuss "position", but explains WHY certain positions affect what he called the essential of riding - fluid balance.


That sounds lovely – added to my Amazon cart. I am very, very interested in getting some of that ‘why’ honestly. Really – and this may be silly-obvious to everyone besides me – but right now my understanding of why heels-down is so critical is currently running through my head. Anything that actually goes over the mechanics of this is much appreciated. 



bsms said:


> His book on the history of riding is also thought-provoking: The Development of Modern Riding He quotes at length from his translations of medieval riders, discusses Caprilli and the Forward Seat, and even quotes a guy writing about round pen techniques and "join up" in the 1870s.


Added to the wishlist but not the cart yet, as my reading list is growing and I need to prioritize. That said, this is also definitely of interest.



bsms said:


> The best single book on how to ride a forward seat, in terms of position, is Harry Chamberlin's Riding and Schooling Horses. It was written to instruct a total beginner (in the 1930s). He would write his instructions, she would attempt to follow them, and if she had problems, he would re-write his instructions. He was in multiple Olympics, was sent by the US Army to attend Saumur (French Cavalry School) and the Italian Cavalry School in Tor di Quinto. His book became, almost verbatim, the US Cavalry manual on equitation.
> …
> Good luck! :wink:


That looks really, really, really useful. This is also added. Thank you *very* much for taking time to give me the recommendations. These all look amazing and I am looking forward to getting them. 

*General Note*

Thank you everyone for the comments, advice, and resources. 


I now have four books coming in from Amazon. Riding and Schooling Horses and Centered Riding should be here by Tuesday. Common Sense Horsemanship and the Young Riders handbooks should be coming in sometime in the second half of the month.


Thank you to everyone for the help and for taking the time to write things up.


----------



## StephaniHren

Sorry if I came off a little inhospitable in my first post! I really didn't mean for it to be unpleasant, I promise it comes from a place of concern and good intentions—I really am glad that you're so excited to learn about horses, I just don't want you to make the mistake of getting stuck on one opinion/focusing so much on the idea of progression/studying that it takes the fun out of horseback riding!

I didn't realize that you're writing more of a blow-by-blow style thought journal. It makes more sense looking back at your posts if I think of it that way. Reading your comments, it sounds like you've got more of an open mind about everything (breed, discipline, etc.) than I got from your original post.

Pompous wasn't a great word choice... I think I meant more "high-expectations"? Gaaah, I still can't think of the word I wanted~

Either way, I think you're right that this is just a difference in communication/interest/learning styles. You seem to be coming at horses with a genuine interest (not to mention dedication!), so I can't really fault you for that. Welcome to the forum and I can't wait to see how you grow as a rider, it's really interesting to read stuff from someone who thinks so differently from me!


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582

Cammey said:


> Bareback is one of those things I’m curious about but right now I figure will be a long ways down the road. I am still learning a bit about bits in general – I understand ‘snaffle’ (and was able to recognize one well enough to know that what I was using on my ride was a snaffle with a bit guard) but I had to google 'short shanked curb'. I'm guessing just because it's leveraged it's going to be a more severe bit... but only slightly - both because the shake is short and also because the area you're distributing the force over (the curve) is broader than the snaffle which narrows it down to a point... so _slightly_ but not a lot more severe than a snaffle?
> 
> Ride *without* your body? Ok, I’m curious in what context you mean by that because it sounds fascinating. Do you mean the bit about very subtly cueing (like the 'just think go' bit) or…?.


LOL, sorry. That was a typo. Right now I hardly use my body (I use mostly rein cues because I haven't learned leg and seat cues very well). The extent of my leg cues is tap on the sides to forward and a small amount of turning with my legs on occasion. I meant I'm learning to ride *with* my body. The very subtle like you're doing is where I want to get to. 

As far as bareback, that's how I started out as a completely "green" beginner. I have only ridden with a saddle maybe 4 times since I started riding (just personal preference), but I have used both English and Western saddles, as well as both types of bridle and a couple types of bit, plus bitless. Riding bareback is a great way to build balance, but you also need a pretty "sticky" seat if your horse decides to buck or anything like that, so I guess I was lucky to have a laid back OTTB when I started. :mrgreen:


A snaffle is an equal pressure bit if you will. It applies the same amount of pressure that you apply to the rein in a 1:1 ratio. On the other hand, ANY curb (regardless of shank length) is a leverage bit, meaning it multiplies that pressure (perhaps 1:2 or 1:3 with a small shank). The same as with all bits, a curb is only as severe as the rider's hands (hence why I barely touch his mouth), and can do more damage (either training wise or physically) with a rider who has rough hands. Yes a snaffle is going to be less harsh in the same rough hands as a curb because of their nature, and the longer the shanks the worse it is, but a good rider (much better than me) can use finesse with a curb and ride one handed, putting little-to-no pressure on the bit and never causing any issue. @Smilie can tell you a lot about snaffles VS. curbs, as she shows Western and has a lot of experience with both. 

Personally I would not choose myself to ride in a curb bit (not experienced enough) but that's the one the horse is ridden in so it came with riding him, and I know enough not to pull on his mouth, especially since he's pretty well trained to leg and seat cues. I don't have the softest hands in a snaffle (I'm not rough, just not super subtle), but in a way using that curb has helped me to develop softer hands than I use to have, because I'm more cautious to use the reins and therefore focus more on my legs and seat, while using soft rein cues. That has carried over to the snaffle and bitless, so I now usually use very small rein cues with other horses, though I have a LOT of room for improvement. Not what I'd recommend someone to do, just an extra tidbit I thought I'd add while we were on the topic. :cowboy:


----------



## Cammey

*Between Sessions - Week 1*

In all my prior athletic endeavors soreness has been a fact of life. Climbing days typically end when one’s hands can no longer grip the wall and frequency of sessions are determined by my ability to recover to full strength. 

I’m very acquainted with my recovery cycle. One of my minor disappointments in life is that for me it tends to be long and painful. I get DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) easily and severely - and it often doesn’t set in until 48 hours after the event. I am also blessed/cursed with a strongly adrenaline-repressed pain response. This both lets me push myself joyfully, but also means I can give myself minor injuries without noticing and have had to learn to be consciously aware of my body or risk paying the price for weeks. 

So it was with some genuine curiosity that I waited to see what my body thought of its recent treatment.

The first thing to kick in was minor pelvis pain. This set in about an hour after I was done riding and seems to have been from where my seat was bouncing on the saddle. I had noticed this a little during the period of faster trotting but had opted to ignore it in favor of trying to keep my heels down. Given I had done that there was little surprise that it hurt. The soreness faded with a night of rest and left no bruising, so it’s been dumped in the ‘ignorable’ bucket for now. This I think will be my motivation for getting posting in trot right. 

The next day brought some mild DOMS. It wasn’t where I expected it. I was expecting the inside of my thighs and my core to be the worst of it. While I had _very_ mild soreness in my inner thighs it was actually my glutes that decided to remind me of their presence. My upper arms also registered a mild complaint at having been held in an unfamiliar position so long. My core, to my shock, was completely fine. I’ve always considered my core a weak area, so this was heartening - though I realize it might just be because I wasn’t trying anything tricky just yet.

All in all, I was pleasantly surprised. I had no expectation of getting away pain-free, but compared to an average day at the gym (rock or weight lifting) I was feeling pretty darn good. I have roughly zero expectation of this lasting, but it’s good to know that the baseline isn’t going to wreck me.

It did however leave me a bit perplexed on putting together a fitness routine. One thing was obvious: I needed to stretch out my calves to gain comfort in the proper ankle position. This was my instructor’s sole request, and thus was the top of my priority list. It was one of the very few areas I had *any* chance of improving on in a short timeframe. Now, the good news was that I was close - fiddling around with the ankle at least showed me I theoretically had the range of motion to get my leg where my instructor wanted it. It was just painful and hitting it was an active stretch.

Past experience trying to gain range of motion (mostly from old gymnastics lessons and very brief stint trying ballet) had taught me that the best way to work on stretching was to try to get in multiple very short sessions as frequently as was reasonable, rather than try to do a dedicated session only a few times in a week - so that’s what I aimed for.

My routine ended up looking a bit like this:



 I’d do the Standing Heel Drop stretch 3-4 times a day for about two minutes at a time. I’d start by dropping both heels for about a minute, then alternate my focus by shifting my weight onto each leg for about fifteen seconds or so - focusing on just breathing and letting myself ‘sink’ into the stretch. If I had another minute to spare after doing that (so about half the time) I would follow up with about a minute of toe-touching to stretch out the rest of the back of the leg. 


 After showering, right before bed, I’d work on some Hip Flexor Stretches - I find these work better when held a little longer. Personally I liked maybe 2 minutes for butterfly, 5 for frog, and then 2 per side for the high step or  kneeling hip flexor stretch which is similar and I find easier to do on the floor.


I wanted to work on my hip flexor along with my calf because tight hip flexors seemed to keep pulling my legs forward a little in the saddle and I kept having to pull to keep my legs below me where I wanted them. It also was making it slightly harder to keep my ankles turned in relative to my toes. I wanted to make the correct position a bit more comfortable.

On the academic side I spent quite a while trying to really _get_ posting the trot. I went through a lot of videos on this - it’s easy to find videos of people talking about trot with the horse’s leg diagonal taped just to watch the motion. But the one that really did end up helping was






Along with the next video in the series 




The reason these proved more useful was in talking about the feel of the muscles. I’ll talk about this a bit more in the lesson section. 

Also, just in case these prove useful I also started trying to watch videos in the position for canter and jumping, but I’ll save any comments on those videos until I get to trying those out and thus can usefully judge which ones end up being helpful. 

As far as reading goes: I actually spent a fair bit of time working through various areas of the forum. I started working through a few journals - gottatrot‘s journal was on that list along with @bsms ‘s journal. Mind you, I’m not very far in reading either and I’m starting at the beginning, so this is going to take a while. 

I also spent a bit of time searching through various internet articles and trying to get some foundation so that I can follow discussions. The most useful of the bunch I found so far:



  Horse color basics. Mostly, I felt this was useful to try to describe horses - though I may have been less attached to this skill had I not been trying to write a journal.


  The Equine Dictionary proved surprisingly useful - notably in helping to solidify and understand some concepts. I realize I may get teased for literally reading a dictionary, but skimming around this both helped me get a foundation for understanding what people were saying in videos as well as giving me a useful reference for horse-terms. 

The following books also got purchased this week, at various people's recommendations:



 John Richard Young's Schooling for Young Riders recommend by greentree


 Sally Swift's Centered Riding recommended by egrogan 


 VS Littauer's Common Sense Horsemanship recommended by bsms


 Harry Chamberlin's Riding and Schooling Horses also recommend by bsms



And, just for pure fun in things I ran across this week:


----------



## Cammey

*Lesson 2: Meeting the Herd and Posting Trot*

I headed out for the lesson about the same blearily early time this weekend as I had previously - except instead of driving around in circles I managed to find the stable on the first try. This meant I was fully twenty minutes early and had no expectation I would run into Jill until closer to lesson time. 

Turns out I was wrong. Instead Jill was running a little on the later side herself and the last few horses were just getting turned out for the day, which involved walking them right through that area I had parked in yesterday (yes, it really is for horses…). I stayed by my car, contented to try to stay out of her way, but I was beckoned over, and we got a bit more of a chance to talk.

Her little herd had been growing - perhaps even more than intended. She had went to pick up one horse over the week only to have the seller ask her to take another for considerably less than what she was expected to be sold for ‘I just want her to have a good home’. It seemed there were a number of new additions to the herd as of late, and Jill chatted a bit about the process of acclimating the new guys to a herd environment. (“They should have at least one friend before they get put in with the group - it keeps them from getting picked on. I brought Pepper in last week and had him hang out with Rowen in one of the paddocks for a while - they seemed to get along immediately - sniffing each other and grooming a bit. That’s when I realized they may have had the same race trainer.”) 

The last horses getting led out to the field were the youngest ones - an orange-colored yearling who I had mistaken for a pony (maybe 14HH? I had no idea yearlings were that huge) and a gorgeous 2-year-old - white horse with pink skin, though out in the sun I could see just the subtlest hints of a very light grey dappling. I was told she was was a registered appendix and already 16.4HH, and would probably grow to be 17HH or more. We chittered a bit about the different needs of different horses (this beautiful white horse was quiet and gentle, but also required a bit of care - she used fly mask and was turned out/in separately, and also some care was taken to avoid letting her get sunburn as she was very pale). 

Then after a few flakes of hay were tossed in for the independently paddocked horses I was handed a bridal and told it was time for me to go out and fetch Dragon. 

So, the first thing I realized was that my ten-horse estimate from yesterday was notably low. I’m not sure how many horses were out there - but it was definitely more than ten. My new guess would be twice that - but I wasn’t able to get a good count.

Walking into the herd felt like something between doing the ‘new person in the social group’ tour at a dinner party and being a momma-duck. As I walked forward the horses would get out of my way - but a fair number of them would then start following me. Others kept turning their right shoulder towards me and lowering their head - which I would learn in a minute was basically waiting for me to put on a halter. This is the one ‘trick’ they seem to get food based treats for and I found it extremely useful - and also sort of cute because it almost seemed like several of the horses were saying ‘pick me’. For all I know, they may well have been - but I suspect love of carrots was driving most of the behavior.

Overall the whole experience of being surrounded like that teetered between being magical and a touch claustrophobic. I probably should have done as Jill did and stayed along the fence - but that thought didn’t occur to me amongst all the chaos of so many friendly horses. 

Meanwhile, Jill was continuing on and giving me introductions and histories of various members of the herd. 

I had recognized Melvin and Glitter from photos on the website of various competitions - they, along with Dragon and Bronze (who I didn’t spot) seemed to be the most common student competition horses just based on number of photos. Both were on the smaller side (wherein ‘smaller’ in this herd of giants was 14-15HH) with Melvin being a dark bay with a white blaze and Glitter being a registered paint. Both were enthusiastically friendly - to the point of being almost a little nosy. 

Jill then pointed out one of the newer guys - a 5-year old ex-racer who was recovering from the strain of the track and mostly just getting to spend some time resting and ‘being a horse’ to acclimate to his new life before beginning serious training. “When I got him he was skin and bones - it’s amazing how fast they lose weight when they’re hurt. It’s been two months to really getting him filled back out and healthy looking again.” He stood a little more of a distance out and was quite attentive to what was going on. He and the yearling seemed to get along.

Then there was Cricket - a dapple grey gelding who stood out amongst the sea of mostly chestnuts and bays. I didn’t get an exact height, he looked maybe 16HH and a bit more lithe and attentive. He kept maybe a horse length of distance between ourselves and him at all times. “You want to ride him? Not today - we’ll ride Dragon today. But yeah, you could ride him.” I got a feeling that I should take this as a compliment.

Dragon didn’t seem to care about the commotion. She stood confidently, left shoulder towards me, and just didn’t move until I got close. When I got close enough she waited until I had thrown the rope over her neck, lowered her head, and stood there patiently while I struggled to figure out how to put the halter on.

This took a while. First, I apparently had managed to get it twisted up in the short time between picking it up and dealing with the gate. Then, the cute cinderella-with-the-birds act that the rest of the herd had been doing around me went from adorable to a bit of a nuisance. Several of them kept nosing at me and trying to get my attention after they saw me give Dragon a carrot. Melvin started to be a bit of a pest, sniffing at my back while I tried to focus on untangling the haltar. Glitter was a tiny bit more tentative but was also stalking in. 

I started to feel a bit crowded. I gave each of them a push only to have them come back half a second later. Jill advised me: “Don’t push them, hit them.” 

I was a little unsure how to handle this instruction, but then (once again thinking back to training videos I had seen) I started swinging the halter rope around a bit in a propeller-like circle. I was careful to keep this away from Dragon - but she really did not seem to care. Glitter backed off immediately, though at a leisurely pace. Melvin didn’t seem to get the message.

I slowly brought my ‘propeller’ (which, if I’m honest, was not moving terribly fast) towards Melvin’s hind-quarters until it contacted. At first it just barely brushed him, then hit him squarely, and then I actually had to swing a little harder/faster before he actually bothered to move. He didn’t look particluarly concerned if I’m honest… he backed off just about 3” outside my range and continued to stand there staring at me. 

This taught me a few things:



Hitting him like this was not actually hurting him… or even concerning him as much as I was expecting it to. The way I was doing this didn’t have the slightest ounce of cruelty to it, and it was the minimum pressure necessary to get him to back off. He honestly only seemed to start caring somewhat begrudgingly. Admittedly, I wasn’t swinging that hard.


 When I stopped spinning, he thought about coming forward (weight shifting), I glared at him a little - he stayed put. Lesson seemed to have been learned, though only begrudgingly.


 These horses are all way calmer than I was expecting. I don’t know why, but I thought just starting to swing the rope around was likely to both possibly spook Dragon (who seemed to care not at all) and also worry all the horses around us… I had to put pressure on a specific horse to get it to move - none of the others reacted much. I had been concerned I would cause some sort of panic when I started to move a rope around like that while surrounded by so many animals - but it didn’t even create a fuss. 



Dragon, meanwhile, was putting up with all this like a champ - between the several minutes of me trying to figure out how the halter went on without hurting her ears, to ignoring me swinging a rope actually rather close to her, she seemed unflappable. 

One problem: the last nosy horse was on the _other_ side of Dragon - seeming to try to reach under/over her to beg for treats. It was bad enough I was worried about getting my hand nibbled while I tried to reach around Dragon’s head to get her other ear in the haltar. We were sort of facing a fence so I couldn’t easily get around to the other side, and I really didn’t want to startle/accidentally hit my extremely well behaved horse trying to get this other guy to back off.

At that moment Dragon, who had been perfectly still up to this point, reached over and lightening-quick nipped the encroaching horse on the neck before putting her head back into the slightly lowered waiting-for-halter-position. The encroaching horse backed off, this time actually a bit startled, and Jill broke down laughing. I got a small lecture on horse discipline and how I needed to be even less timid with the rope.

Dragon and I still hadn’t won terribly much space for ourselves - but it was enough to get the job done. In the future I’m going to see if I can lead whatever horse I’m trying to halter a bit farther from the peanut gallery before I try to actually get it on. Ironically, once Dragon was being led everyone else backed off a bit more seeming to find the show over. Thankfully I had much less trouble getting her out of the gate than I was expecting.

This time it was me grooming her and getting the tack on myself with Jill’s supervision and review. Her slightly more complicated figure-8 bridle continues to elude me, but everything else was fairly straightforward. I mounted and rode her out to the arena myself.

First was warm-up and going back through last week to make sure I hadn’t forgotten anything. I hadn’t. I was even able to get her into the corners quite nicely. Honestly, Dragon seemed a lot quieter and more cooperative today - though while she was beautifully behaved she still did tell me she would have really preferred we were going faster. I heard sort of a mildly distressing crunching sound coming from her mouth and got to learn that ‘chomping at the bit’ can be a very literal expression. 

Then we started out working on trying to get a “Western Jog” vs. “Trot” - both of which Dragon is comfortable in. I’ll be honest, I still am only starting to get the difference between the gaits. We worked on getting her head down into a sort of western position (which is apparently how Dragon knows which she’s supposed to be doing). There’s some delicate timing around the halt-go commands to pick the proper speed which tell her that we want to do the intermediate between walk and trot. I didn’t do too well with this. Honestly, we mostly kept going through different trot speeds rather than getting it right. Jill warned me that one we’re on English Trot she just assumes she should be staying in English so it can be tricky to get her to realize we should switch back to Western. 

After about my third failed attempt to get the ‘Western Jog’ (which I’m convinced our failure to get was my failure to communicate, not her attempt to be evasive) we instead accepted her slow bouncy trot and started to work on getting ‘on the bit’ instead. This was mostly just an introduction - but I was shocked how much rein-slack could be picked up in getting her to do this. Once we started Dragon put her neck in fairly easily and almost seemed to feed the reins back to me until I felt a place where there was a gentle pressure - then I fed her back about half an inch and she rested into it. I worked on trying to keep my hands as still as possible while riding the trot, conscious of the fact that putting any sort of pressure on her this way was probably going to be felt. 

We did that off-and-on for a while. I probably let her stretch out a bit too easily - but I also didn’t find it too hard to pull her back. I also found it trickier to keep her in the corners on the trot without lifting my leg up higher than Jill wanted it “Don’t compromise your leg position and base of support - don’t lift your leg to do that” but overall I was feeling it went pretty well. It was also nice because being pulled up like that Dragon seemed to be slightly less inclined to keep trying to push me to go faster (though stopping was as hard as ever). 

Then, as expected, we moved on to posting trot.

So we went on to lead and right off the bat I discovered a major flaw in my plan to try to get my timing by watching the horse’s shoulder - putting my head down enough to watch the shoulder/leg meant compromising the form of my back more than was a good idea, even on the lead line. Tucking my fingers into the pommel of the saddle as Jill had suggested for balance also posed a form problem. While the grip was actually quite good (If you’re curious what a really solid rock climbing hold feels like, grabbing the pommel of an English Saddle is a good facsimile) - my arms weren’t long enough to let me post up properly without leaning forward and a bit out of balance.

Jill, seeing my timing problems, tried telling me ‘up-down-up-down’ for a little bit, but eventually suggested I try posting fairly randomly and trying to let the rhythm come to me in the bounces.

And it did - in fits and starts at first - but it did. Dragon did not keep a perfectly regular pace on the lead line which kept throwing me off - but I would get four or five strides in a row before it fell apart. It helped if I thought of it a bit more as ‘going up’, ‘holding’, ‘going down’ as I could feel the second hoof-hit during the time I was up there and ‘going with the horse’ required me to be ready to take that small extra movement as well - it’s also what gave me the timing on when I should start to go down.

I got one quick ‘heels down - it forces you to use your thighs more’ correction before I added that bit of focus as well - but by this point I had really started to get it. This is where that Dressage video helped - it helped me to think on which muscles exactly I should be moving in order to not rely on my stirrups.

Then I was taken off lead (largely I think to try to see if we could get Dragon to be a bit more regular a gait) and I tried it around the arena.

The first thing I learned was that I could post, or steer, but not both. Mind you, by ‘not steer’ I don’t mean that the horse was going about completely randomly - but any illusion of not falling in on turns went right out the window, and I had more than a bit of ‘drunk horse’ and could only even manage to keep her on the rail with the straightaway a few times. She sped up a little, but less than I was used to as all this trotting seemed to be genuinely tiring her out a bit. I probably managed to post at the right moment about half the time I was supposed to be doing so. I played around with all of this for probably about ten minutes, getting it in bits and spurts. 

Then it was back to lead for balance exercises while posting. This was really where some of it started to fully ‘click’ into place. Letting go of the pommel helped my form on the posting get better, and I could get the timing so long as Dragon didn’t change pace at all. I honestly didn’t find the balance exercises posting trot any worse than the balance exercises with sitting trot. Actually, the ‘turn in, turn out’ exercise which had previously been slightly tricky now seemed easier - though I don’t know if that was because of just a little more experience in general or because not dealing with the bouncing made things more steady.

The last thing I decided to do was a little bit on my own - I decided that Dragon and I needed to have a little bit of a discussion on the ‘halt means halt’ problem. So after a quick walk cool-down I worked on just getting her to stand there calmly. I would get her to halt and she would immediately try to walk forward as soon as I removed pressure. Then as soon as she lifted her foot I would apply pressure again until she stopped and set it down. We went like this for a while before I finally was able to let up pressure on her at all without her starting to walk off. I find it ironic that Dragon would happily stand for so long while I fiddled to get the halter on in a somewhat chaotic herd, to wait for inexperienced hands to tack her up, to wait at the mounting block perfectly without assistance, or even to be slowly dismounted - but as soon as there were places we could be going she wanted to be on the move. I know this horse is quite capable of standing still - I just have no idea why she seems to find it so onerous in the ring. Jill even mentioned that back when she was doing her Dressage I test the trot in and salute was the single hardest bit to get her to do properly. I could definitely see that.

Dismounting this time was a non-issue. I didn’t even attempt the nice smooth ‘leg over horse and slide down’ motion. I just reversed my mounting process and stood, swung my leg over while resting my hands on the saddle, and then lowered myself down with the sturrup. It looked much less cool - but it worked and there was no risk of kicking dragon. 

I asked Jill about additional lessons quickly while the next lesson was bringing their horses in and paid her for a block of lessons in advance. She seemed to think about it but then mentioned how much she’s honestly been enjoying getting to see the progression. She asked me to text her to follow up.

*Key Thoughts:*

 The ankle and hip flexor exercises were a good idea. I felt much more open in the hips today and my only trouble with keeping my heel down was due to what I was doing rather than not physically being able to. 

 If today doesn’t make me sore, then I am not sure what will and I’m going to need to be a bit arbitrary in putting together a fitness plan for all this. My muscles didn’t fail me today, but I could feel them getting tired by the end. I am anticipating DOMS. 

 I need to be even a little more assertive than I have been - especially in those ‘whole herd’ situations. I probably shouldn’t have let Melvin and Glitter get away with being nosy for as long as I did. Hitting them with the rope didn’t seem to worry them terribly much, let alone hurt them.

 I loved meeting all the new horses today. Off in the distant future I wonder if Jill would also give lessons in training horses as well as lessons in riding them and various events. 


*Trainer Assigned Homework:*


 Text her to talk about additional training sessions. 

*Self-Assigned Homework: *


 Go buy a helmet and a second set of breeches. (... do I go with pretty and slightly whimsical, or something I could wear into a show-ring ever? This is an oddly difficult decision.) 

 Start thinking about what I want to do fitness-wise and if I want to add any sort of exercise or cross-training for riding to my program. 

 Wait and enjoy the flood of books I have coming.


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## Cammey

BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 said:


> LOL, sorry. That was a typo. Right now I hardly use my body (I use mostly rein cues because I haven't learned leg and seat cues very well). The extent of my leg cues is tap on the sides to forward and a small amount of turning with my legs on occasion. I meant I'm learning to ride *with* my body. The very subtle like you're doing is where I want to get to.
> 
> As far as bareback, that's how I started out as a completely "green" beginner. I have only ridden with a saddle maybe 4 times since I started riding (just personal preference), but I have used both English and Western saddles, as well as both types of bridle and a couple types of bit, plus bitless. Riding bareback is a great way to build balance, but you also need a pretty "sticky" seat if your horse decides to buck or anything like that, so I guess I was lucky to have a laid back OTTB when I started. :mrgreen:


Alright, that makes more sense. 

As to starting green and bareback. Seriously, people seem to think I'm less nervous on horses than most - but a lot of the ways it seem like people learned on here sort of impress/terrify me. I _think_ I could stay on a really polite horse bareback walking right now... no idea about trotting. Trying to learn that way sort of boggles my mind. 




BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 said:


> A snaffle is an equal pressure bit if you will. It applies the same amount of pressure that you apply to the rein in a 1:1 ratio. On the other hand, ANY curb (regardless of shank length) is a leverage bit, meaning it multiplies that pressure (perhaps 1:2 or 1:3 with a small shank). The same as with all bits, a curb is only as severe as the rider's hands (hence why I barely touch his mouth), and can do more damage (either training wise or physically) with a rider who has rough hands. Yes a snaffle is going to be less harsh in the same rough hands as a curb because of their nature, and the longer the shanks the worse it is, but a good rider (much better than me) can use finesse with a curb and ride one handed, putting little-to-no pressure on the bit and never causing any issue. @Smilie can tell you a lot about snaffles VS. curbs, as she shows Western and has a lot of experience with both.
> 
> Personally I would not choose myself to ride in a curb bit (not experienced enough) but that's the one the horse is ridden in so it came with riding him, and I know enough not to pull on his mouth, especially since he's pretty well trained to leg and seat cues. I don't have the softest hands in a snaffle (I'm not rough, just not super subtle), but in a way using that curb has helped me to develop softer hands than I use to have, because I'm more cautious to use the reins and therefore focus more on my legs and seat, while using soft rein cues. That has carried over to the snaffle and bitless, so I now usually use very small rein cues with other horses, though I have a LOT of room for improvement. Not what I'd recommend someone to do, just an extra tidbit I thought I'd add while we were on the topic. :cowboy:


I think I might understand learning softness through caution I think. I may be learning it a bit by necessity. I like nice gentle movements right now - but anything besides those lightest touches and Dragon's motion can be fast and sudden. I was trying to 'jiggle the horse's head down for western jog' by putting my hands wide and low. (Note: I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing here, as is evidenced by the fact I never did get the Western Jog) then went to get her to reverse direction in our trotting circle. Well, because I was slightly off-balance leaning forward to try to get the reins 'low' I pulled a little too hard (still not that hard - but actually pulled a bit instead of just signaling) on the turn and she basically very quickly spun in place. I'm not sure if was supposed to be a pirouette or some sort of western spin-move, but it was _fast_ and we ended at a halt pointing the opposite direction - and then from that momentary halt directly to a trot without passing through the walk. My goal there actually had been a moderately tight circle to turn around... so I ended up going exactly the direction I wanted to go doing exactly what I wanted to do... but I was expecting an awful lot more steps in this process. 

Heck, it was actually kind of cool and in retrospect if I could do it again on purpose I very well might... but for now I remember my trainer's Ferrari analogy for handling these horses, and that if you sneeze while driving one you can end up accidentally switching lanes. 

In addition to that problem we start running into other limitations of mine: Right now I really can't keep my hands steady at all while posting trot. This is why I suspect we were weaving around like drunk drivers the first time I tried it. I know quite well that Dragon knows how to walk properly in a circle (minus a little clipping in at the corners) - so my guess is that my hands/seat not being steady was responsible for 95% of our problems. I'm not sure on that, but given that she knows what she's doing if something stupid is going on it's pretty certainly _directly_ my fault instead of only _indirectly_ my fault due to asking her to do something she doesn't know how to do. (The other 5% is her tendency to speed up and fall in on turns...)

My final problem is a mindset switch issue that I keep having in those events that Dragon _doesn't_ want to listen to me on something - like with halting. Dragon _can_ stop with nothing but the seat. I am even fairly confident I now know how to stop her with nothing but the seat and can perform this fairly consistently in a way she understands exactly what I want. But if she's in a mood *not* to stop I need to go from politely asking her to _telling_ her - and that's a dramatic difference in what I'm doing with my hands and a shift in approach. I think I tend to ratchet up pressure way too slowly on this and be kind of tentative - which is why it can take a quarter of a freaking circle (or more) to get her to actually come to a halt (yes, seriously...). Keeping her at a halt likewise uses probably 5x the pressure I use for _anything else_ when she's arguing with me.

I've got a long, long, long way to go with all this... but I'm thankful I at least got a chance to learn just how light cues can be at the start. Now I just need to do... oh everything else. :lol:


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## greentree

Not unusual AT ALL to have problems understanding how to ramp up the pressure. It also takes a good bit of time to learn how to use your body parts independently....especially when you already know how to drive car! Because now you are dealing with an animal, instead of a machine, which is understood by the logical part of our brain, but not the autonomous part....

Sounds like you are doing great! Thanks for the update!


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## tinyliny

So very much will resolve itself when you start to have the balance and strength to have an independent seat. It can take some time. That is why work on the lunge line , where you are not responsible for steering the horse. Can be so valuable as a firm foundation. At this pint I your riding , you should not have any concern at all for whether the horse is on the bit or not , nor would I ever start off by teaching someone to wiggle or fiddle a horse's head down into any sort of position. 

Your trainer sounds like a really neat person who allows you a great deal of freedom to learn on your own. While I admire and value that, I would never send a rank beginner out into a herd od horse and say, "go get your horse ". As you witnessed, when they squabble with each other it apcan be sudden and violent. And you can end up hurt badly. You just have to be in the way if a subordinate horse when another bite at him and he tries to escape through or over you. Or, nor kicks at another, who kicks back, right into your shins . . .or you're face. It's one of the most dangerous times; catching a horse out in a herd.


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## equinesmitten

Congrats on your beginning journey! I have skimmed many of the responses and I just wanted to say that the journey is yours! No one's horse journey is exactly the same.  I started riding at 30. I took lessons for two years before buying my trusty Skipper W QH. He is a saint, so easy a cave man can ride him. He has carried babies, seniors, once flipped a chair and myself underneath him and he stood quietly!  But that grade QH carried me safely over everything from the Rockies to water to fences in the Kansas hunt field! He gave me confidence and time to develop my skills so when my husband was gifted our high energy, opinionated Appy's, I was ready to level up! Those Appys prepared me for my OTTB that I got 2 years ago. I am now 39 and I have ridden almost everyday. I've taken riding jobs and every opportunity to ride new horses that I could and I can name over 80 horses that I have ridden. My advice would be to ride everything (safe!) that you can for a few years. All horses feel very different and you'll learn what horses are "your ride". Lease something bomb proof to really hone your skills and get good quality lessons. Much of my riding experience has been baptism by fire and I have been very fortunate despite my ignorance at the time.  Enjoy this time!


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## Cammey

greentree said:


> Not unusual AT ALL to have problems understanding how to ramp up the pressure. It also takes a good bit of time to learn how to use your body parts independently....especially when you already know how to drive car! Because now you are dealing with an animal, instead of a machine, which is understood by the logical part of our brain, but not the autonomous part....
> 
> Sounds like you are doing great! Thanks for the update!


Yeah, I doubt the appropriate speeds to ramp pressure up is consistent between circumstances either - this is going to be one of those cases where there's just not going to be any way to get around needing lots and lots of experience in different circumstances and figuring it out. For now I'm just recognizing that I'm probably leaning too much on the 'gentle' side since the horses I'm working with both know what they're doing (so it's not like they're confused and need to figure it out) and seem more pushy than spooky. I also realize I'm treating horses a bit more fragile than they are - and confusing Dragon's ability to shift around with the tiniest cue with her being sensitive in general. All this is going to take time, and then probably will take time again as soon as I end up on a different horse.

I actually find the physical motions of cars and horses so different that a few cute analogies aside I don't find myself trying to think of the movement similarity - it doesn't really cue that set of muscle memories. I'm not sure what set of muscle memories it even does cue... honestly maybe ballet a little? Mostly because I'm focusing right now on posture, the way that my legs need to be 'relaxed but engaged' and turned out slightly reminds me of a kind of gentle demi-plié a la second. I've also tried thinking horse stance from martial arts - but that wasn't actually at all useful (thighs are a lot more engaged, legs are intentionally up... it looks vaguely similar but it's very, very wrong and 5 seconds of trying it shows that). 




tinyliny said:


> So very much will resolve itself when you start to have the balance and strength to have an independent seat. It can take some time. That is why work on the lunge line , where you are not responsible for steering the horse. Can be so valuable as a firm foundation. At this pint I your riding , you should not have any concern at all for whether the horse is on the bit or not , nor would I ever start off by teaching someone to wiggle or fiddle a horse's head down into any sort of position.


I’m very much looking forward to working on my seat to be honest. That may sound odd, but to me laying those foundations are what everything else will grow from. Right now I am really just working on posture, relaxation, and balance. As far as strength - so far I’ve been pleasantly surprised that my muscles haven’t complained too much yet. That said I’m trying to figure out what cross-training I can throw in to help with that and looking to add a gym day to my week to try to improve. Unfortunately I just can’t get the number of on-the-horse hours I’d like to right now (though I’m working on it). 

For now I think working on things like head position was more in the realm of giving something a try and seeing where it got us - it was right after warm-up and before we moved over to posting. It’s not something we’re really working on maintaining at this point - more just learning the basic method and seeing if I happen to ‘get’ it. 





tinyliny said:


> Your trainer sounds like a really neat person who allows you a great deal of freedom to learn on your own. While I admire and value that, I would never send a rank beginner out into a herd od horse and say, "go get your horse ". As you witnessed, when they squabble with each other it apcan be sudden and violent. And you can end up hurt badly. You just have to be in the way if a subordinate horse when another bite at him and he tries to escape through or over you. Or, nor kicks at another, who kicks back, right into your shins . . .or you're face. It's one of the most dangerous times; catching a horse out in a herd.


As to the herd - I'll be honest, this is where I more agree that we're pushing things and I’m kind of torn as to my opinion on it. Also as a note: this was not my idea. The only independent ‘let’s try X’ idea I’ve had so far in any of this process has been my little discussions with Dragon about how we’re going to work on halting and standing calmly - which Jill approves of and has been supervising but is genuinely my own little initiative.

On one hand I think I see where this is going. This is going to be a necessary skill for me to have at this stable. The standard practice seems to be for students to go out and select, catch, groom, and tack their horses before their lesson starts and ride them into the arena at their start time, then cool down, un-tack, treat, and release them post-lesson. I think I might genuinely be the only rank beginner at this stable right now - so this process makes sense but it's a bit tricky to work myself into. Being able to have these skills fundamentally would mean that I'd be able to get as long as possible in-lesson rather than doing prep, so I see the advantage of beginning the process of introducing me to it as early as possible so that we can start moving in that direction.

On the other hand, it’s hard _not_ to be aware of the potential danger of having a litteral small herd of horses surrounding you - bonus points for the fact I know that a number of them are very recently off the track, and another is a yearling. I’m not even under any intellectual or emotional illusions that these are all somehow “safe” horses (... which would be an illusion anyway, because they’re _horses_ and furthermore they’re in a group.) 

So I’m a bit torn on it. Everything about horsemanship is a calculated risk (as can be said about a lot of things to greater and lesser degrees) - the trick is determining what side of the fuzzy-grey-line of ‘reasonable/acceptable risk’ we’re on at any given time. I’m also working to determine where my trainer’s line is relative to where my line is - which is tricky because I’m still learning to get an accurate calculation of risk in each activity. 

So far I’m still in the ‘trust my trainer’ camp, but the sanity-check is appreciated.




equinesmitten said:


> Congrats on your beginning journey! I have skimmed many of the responses and I just wanted to say that the journey is yours! No one's horse journey is exactly the same.  I started riding at 30. I took lessons for two years before buying my trusty Skipper W QH. He is a saint, so easy a cave man can ride him. He has carried babies, seniors, once flipped a chair and myself underneath him and he stood quietly!  But that grade QH carried me safely over everything from the Rockies to water to fences in the Kansas hunt field! He gave me confidence and time to develop my skills so when my husband was gifted our high energy, opinionated Appy's, I was ready to level up! Those Appys prepared me for my OTTB that I got 2 years ago. I am now 39 and I have ridden almost everyday. I've taken riding jobs and every opportunity to ride new horses that I could and I can name over 80 horses that I have ridden. My advice would be to ride everything (safe!) that you can for a few years. All horses feel very different and you'll learn what horses are "your ride". Lease something bomb proof to really hone your skills and get good quality lessons. Much of my riding experience has been baptism by fire and I have been very fortunate despite my ignorance at the time.  Enjoy this time!


That sounds absolutely lovely to be honest. I’m still really hoping to get to a point where I can actually be safe without a trainer standing over me (on *any* horse) so I can just get more hours in the saddle - that’s my biggest limitation right now. A little part of me is hoping I’ll hit that point by Spring/Summer next year (with bi-weekly lessons between now and then) - but I have no idea where on the spectrum from absurdly optimistic to reasonable that is. Right now I’m taking it day-by-day and trying not to have any expectations on anything. For perspective my original goal was 4-6 months to walk/trot/steer… I’ve just accepted I don’t know a darn thing about what timelines look like. 

As far as being able to ride every day or work a horse job: I actually don’t really have that flexibility. I’m the main breadwinner of my household and I work a full-time 8am-6pm M-F consulting job in software (plus travel). My best/most dedicated schedule right now would have me being able to spend two/three week nights and some time on weekends and that’s if I decide I no longer care about ever seeing my friends again.

My job is fast-paced and high-stress. For perspective: Rock Climbing has sent me to Urgent Care once. Job Stress related medical issues have put me there three times - one time arguably more serious than the rock climbing incident. I've been working very hard on that 'work/life balance' aspect of things and that's one of the major things I am looking forward to with all this - a time to put my job stress away and be 100% focused on something else. I love not being able to answer my phone for a while. 

On the plus side, my career does mean that the idea of doing a partial lease on a horse and continuing to afford weekly lessons isn’t outside the realm of possibility for me (though it’s a serious financial commitment - at least in this area that’s still pretty darn expensive) so I have that going for me. 

I’d honestly be really curious to hear a lot more about your journey. I went through your picture gallery and was just thrilled at what I saw there - a lot of things that I am sort of part way between dreaming about and setting as a goal. It’s exciting to hear of someone else starting at about where I am who ended up getting to that level.


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## equinesmitten

Cammey said:


> Yeah, I doubt the appropriate speeds to ramp pressure up is consistent between circumstances either - this is going to be one of those cases where there's just not going to be any way to get around needing lots and lots of experience in different circumstances and figuring it out. For now I'm just recognizing that I'm probably leaning too much on the 'gentle' side since the horses I'm working with both know what they're doing (so it's not like they're confused and need to figure it out) and seem more pushy than spooky. I also realize I'm treating horses a bit more fragile than they are - and confusing Dragon's ability to shift around with the tiniest cue with her being sensitive in general. All this is going to take time, and then probably will take time again as soon as I end up on a different horse.
> 
> I actually find the physical motions of cars and horses so different that a few cute analogies aside I don't find myself trying to think of the movement similarity - it doesn't really cue that set of muscle memories. I'm not sure what set of muscle memories it even does cue... honestly maybe ballet a little? Mostly because I'm focusing right now on posture, the way that my legs need to be 'relaxed but engaged' and turned out slightly reminds me of a kind of gentle demi-plié a la second. I've also tried thinking horse stance from martial arts - but that wasn't actually at all useful (thighs are a lot more engaged, legs are intentionally up... it looks vaguely similar but it's very, very wrong and 5 seconds of trying it shows that).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I’m very much looking forward to working on my seat to be honest. That may sound odd, but to me laying those foundations are what everything else will grow from. Right now I am really just working on posture, relaxation, and balance. As far as strength - so far I’ve been pleasantly surprised that my muscles haven’t complained too much yet. That said I’m trying to figure out what cross-training I can throw in to help with that and looking to add a gym day to my week to try to improve. Unfortunately I just can’t get the number of on-the-horse hours I’d like to right now (though I’m working on it).
> 
> For now I think working on things like head position was more in the realm of giving something a try and seeing where it got us - it was right after warm-up and before we moved over to posting. It’s not something we’re really working on maintaining at this point - more just learning the basic method and seeing if I happen to ‘get’ it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As to the herd - I'll be honest, this is where I more agree that we're pushing things and I’m kind of torn as to my opinion on it. Also as a note: this was not my idea. The only independent ‘let’s try X’ idea I’ve had so far in any of this process has been my little discussions with Dragon about how we’re going to work on halting and standing calmly - which Jill approves of and has been supervising but is genuinely my own little initiative.
> 
> On one hand I think I see where this is going. This is going to be a necessary skill for me to have at this stable. The standard practice seems to be for students to go out and select, catch, groom, and tack their horses before their lesson starts and ride them into the arena at their start time, then cool down, un-tack, treat, and release them post-lesson. I think I might genuinely be the only rank beginner at this stable right now - so this process makes sense but it's a bit tricky to work myself into. Being able to have these skills fundamentally would mean that I'd be able to get as long as possible in-lesson rather than doing prep, so I see the advantage of beginning the process of introducing me to it as early as possible so that we can start moving in that direction.
> 
> On the other hand, it’s hard _not_ to be aware of the potential danger of having a litteral small herd of horses surrounding you - bonus points for the fact I know that a number of them are very recently off the track, and another is a yearling. I’m not even under any intellectual or emotional illusions that these are all somehow “safe” horses (... which would be an illusion anyway, because they’re _horses_ and furthermore they’re in a group.)
> 
> So I’m a bit torn on it. Everything about horsemanship is a calculated risk (as can be said about a lot of things to greater and lesser degrees) - the trick is determining what side of the fuzzy-grey-line of ‘reasonable/acceptable risk’ we’re on at any given time. I’m also working to determine where my trainer’s line is relative to where my line is - which is tricky because I’m still learning to get an accurate calculation of risk in each activity.
> 
> So far I’m still in the ‘trust my trainer’ camp, but the sanity-check is appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds absolutely lovely to be honest. I’m still really hoping to get to a point where I can actually be safe without a trainer standing over me (on *any* horse) so I can just get more hours in the saddle - that’s my biggest limitation right now. A little part of me is hoping I’ll hit that point by Spring/Summer next year (with bi-weekly lessons between now and then) - but I have no idea where on the spectrum from absurdly optimistic to reasonable that is. Right now I’m taking it day-by-day and trying not to have any expectations on anything. For perspective my original goal was 4-6 months to walk/trot/steer… I’ve just accepted I don’t know a darn thing about what timelines look like.
> 
> As far as being able to ride every day or work a horse job: I actually don’t really have that flexibility. I’m the main breadwinner of my household and I work a full-time 8am-6pm M-F consulting job in software (plus travel). My best/most dedicated schedule right now would have me being able to spend two/three week nights and some time on weekends and that’s if I decide I no longer care about ever seeing my friends again.
> 
> My job is fast-paced and high-stress. For perspective: Rock Climbing has sent me to Urgent Care once. Job Stress related medical issues have put me there three times - one time arguably more serious than the rock climbing incident. I've been working very hard on that 'work/life balance' aspect of things and that's one of the major things I am looking forward to with all this - a time to put my job stress away and be 100% focused on something else. I love not being able to answer my phone for a while.
> 
> On the plus side, my career does mean that the idea of doing a partial lease on a horse and continuing to afford weekly lessons isn’t outside the realm of possibility for me (though it’s a serious financial commitment - at least in this area that’s still pretty darn expensive) so I have that going for me.
> 
> I’d honestly be really curious to hear a lot more about your journey. I went through your picture gallery and was just thrilled at what I saw there - a lot of things that I am sort of part way between dreaming about and setting as a goal. It’s exciting to hear of someone else starting at about where I am who ended up getting to that level.


God willing, I will be learning until I'm dead! LOL. I remember like it was yesterday, the very first time about 7 years ago that I could tack a horse up myself and just go ride. So exciting! You'll get there. I have worked most of this horse time in retail or with horses but I am not the bread winner so I usually work 20-30 hours a week. One week, I was riding at 4:30am in Colorado to get ready for my first dressage show.  I volunteered a lot at the beginning at various barns to learn everything. I'd muck, turn in and turn out in exchange for knowledge/lessons. Then I got my first paid riding gig!  So, my time line looks kinda like this : 

1. Two years, I took lessons in IL and CO. 
2. Two-Three years in: I got a job as a trail guide at a ranch and bought my trusty Skipper W. Continue lessons.
3. Four Years: Husband deployed to Iraq and I spent the year showing and training the trusty Skipper W and the opinionated Black Appy in SC. It was the blind leading the blind but I learned a ton! Kept on lessoning.
4. Year 5: We went to Kansas where I foxhunted with the Leavenworth Hunt on trusty Skipper W and two nice Irish Sport horses that a generous hunt member let me borrow. 
5. Year 6: We moved to Northern VA where I took various riding jobs, not all of which were healthy.  But I lived and despite crappy footing/crappy wet falls and winters, I continued lessons and got my OTTB. He was a hot mess right off the track, it took almost 2 years to get him sound and sane at the same time. 
Year 8: We move to TN, I keep plugging away taking lessons, I give some lessons on occasion to those new to english, which help me continue to advance myself. TB did his first shows this year and I'm really happy with him!
Year 9: (My husband just retired from Active Duty.) We are moving to SC for good! We are taking up my Dad's farm and the journey continues.  

That's just a brief timeline for you. A million billion things happened in those 9 years. You have such a desire to learn, that's half the battle! I read, I study, I experience. And I still don't know the half of it! There have been days that I wanted to quit. Horses will break your heart on occasion. But keep at it. Every day is a new day.


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## gottatrot

Congratulations on picking up the posting trot rhythm so quickly. It is one of the most difficult things to learn, along with two pointing. 

A stretch I've found to be crucial is this one:




I've found that shortened glut muscles can lead to all kinds of issues from IT band syndrome to sciatic nerve pain. Doing this stretch every several days has resolved some leg and lower back pain I used to get after riding.

I'll add my agreement to those who say to be careful about being in a herd of loose horses. If your instructor knows the herd well, she may hopefully know things are stable enough to involve you in this. I've not been seriously injured falling off horses (many, many falls), but I have gotten several serious injuries from loose horses (with very few incidents). So I believe your risk of injury in a herd of loose horses is very high. It's not normally what you are doing with a horse that proves dangerous, it's what is happening in the background that you may miss. Horses might threaten other horses who are looking away as they trample over the top of you. A horse might try to kick or bite another horse, miss and hit you. 

One mare had a game where she'd wait until your arms were tied up with getting the halter on a horse, then she'd rush at that horse, making the horse run and yank away from the handler. If you already had the horse caught and trapped, she could land a kick or bite, and she knew that. This situation required an experienced handler to keep the aggressive mare well away and out of range, so hopefully your instructor wouldn't involve you in any situation like that. 

A riding analogy that helped me was to think of using a position similar to skiing. I'm not sure if you've ever been skiing, but as your speed picks up your body crouches more by bending through all the joints, while remaining balanced over your feet and through your core. Your joints all have to remain supple and loose, to absorb the shock of increasing speed. Your muscles have enough tension to maintain position and not fall down, but no more than enough that the bumps don't throw you off balance. Your upper arms remain lightly at the side of your body while riding, and you adjust the length of your reins with your hands. It's common for beginners to push their upper arms forward, or to pull them back behind their torsos rather than adjusting rein length. 

Just as with rock climbing, any time you get out of shape from riding you will be sore again. I went on vacation so didn't ride for three weeks. After my first ride back, I was very muscle sore and very stiff after each time I sat down for awhile.


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## tinyliny

you will, in time , find out who has the most valuable advice to offer here. and gottatrot's is top notch.


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## TwoTap

I agree that going into the herd and catching by yourself (even if supervised) was a quick move, but wanted to mention that you do not want to be bringing cookies or other special snacks out with you into the middle of the herd. You've had a little taste of the displeasure it can cause, especially as someone who is green and have not figured out how to make a horse move his feet. Horses are pushy and can sometimes act like dogs - jealous, they want what you're giving out, and they are also curious. "What's going on over here... Oh, cookies, you have cookies, I want a cookie. Gimme a cookie... Please?"

I used to lesson at a place that had the same procedure for lessons and a similar herd type set-up for turn out. If you *have* to use a cookie to catch your mount, I seriously recommend asking the instructor for help or for a different horse. Those situations can get dangerous, really quickly, as gottatrot pointed out. There were several times I or other students were almost trampled, stepped on, kicked or bitten as another horse that was loose would instigate, be pushy at the gate or tack themselves on behind the horse we were leading causing a rush-panic for whoever was leading.

I love reading your journal, it's well written, informative but also open-minded and entertaining.  I look forward to following it!


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## equinesmitten

"What's going on over here... Oh, cookies, you have cookies, I want a cookie. Gimme a cookie... Please?" Just snorted my coffee! Two Tap, this is my pasture daily!


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## NavigatorsMom

Welcome to the forum and to the world of horses! You are very well-written and your journal is a pleasure to read.  I think there's something about starting to ride as an adult that allows for quicker progress than a child, and already you are moving along quite well and proving that. 

Just a comment on a post you made a page or so back, about buying another pair of breeches and not being able to decide between whimsical or "show appropriate". You probably won't show for a while (although in a couple more lessons you could probably do a walk-trot kind of class, just saying!) but when you start you'll likely be doing lower-level, local stuff, which doesn't usually have as strict of a dress code. Sooo, if the cute or colorful type breeches make you happy, get some like that! I only rarely show, so I have one set of show breeches, but I school in black/grey, green, maroon, and navy (with electric green piping, hehe) breeches. I think fun colors are fun to ride in. I don't know if you know about SmartPak, but they have some super cute breeches in a variety of colors, some that are pretty neutral but with accents of color, if you don't want to go too out there! 

I look forward to hearing about your progress!


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## Cammey

equinesmitten said:


> God willing, I will be learning until I'm dead! LOL. I remember like it was yesterday, the very first time about 7 years ago that I could tack a horse up myself and just go ride. So exciting! You'll get there. ….


That all sounds really lovely. I really love the _idea_ of foxhunting, though I’m not sure my vegetarian self could take place in any foxhunt that involved an actual live fox (planted trail following would be absolutely ok with me - but I’ve read that people tend to find them a bit more dull). It’s one of the items on my list of ‘really cool stuff to look at once I have a lot more riding experience’. 

I don’t _actually_ want to give up my life and go play with horses, but I confess that there’s an appeal to the idea of it. 

Congrats on the move!



gottatrot said:


> Congratulations on picking up the posting trot rhythm so quickly. It is one of the most difficult things to learn, along with two pointing.
> 
> A stretch I've found to be crucial is this one:
> 
> I've found that shortened glut muscles can lead to all kinds of issues from IT band syndrome to sciatic nerve pain. Doing this stretch every several days has resolved some leg and lower back pain I used to get after riding.


Well, I wouldn’t say I’ve exactly _gotten_ the posting trot rhythm quite yet - but I’m thankful that I at least have managed it for bits at a time. I still need to work on how to feel it well enough when speeds change even the smallest amount. I’m just relieved that there’s some progress.

Thank you for the stretch - that is now added to my little routine. I especially like it because it works well in an office chair (where much of my life gets spent). Thank you! 




gottatrot said:


> I'll add my agreement to those who say to be careful about being in a herd of loose horses. If your instructor knows the herd well, she may hopefully know things are stable enough to involve you in this. I've not been seriously injured falling off horses (many, many falls), but I have gotten several serious injuries from loose horses (with very few incidents). So I believe your risk of injury in a herd of loose horses is very high. It's not normally what you are doing with a horse that proves dangerous, it's what is happening in the background that you may miss. Horses might threaten other horses who are looking away as they trample over the top of you. A horse might try to kick or bite another horse, miss and hit you.
> 
> One mare had a game where she'd wait until your arms were tied up with getting the halter on a horse, then she'd rush at that horse, making the horse run and yank away from the handler. If you already had the horse caught and trapped, she could land a kick or bite, and she knew that. This situation required an experienced handler to keep the aggressive mare well away and out of range, so hopefully your instructor wouldn't involve you in any situation like that.


Point noted, appreciated, and being taken seriously. 

About the only thing I know about this trainer and this herd is that it’s literally the before-every-lesson practice for the students to go out and fetch their horses - sometimes a specific horse, sometimes whomever you want from the list of horses you’re cleared to ride. Specifically people seem to start arriving about 20ish minutes before the prior lesson finishes and do all their prep work so they can ride in at the appointed time - then you basically swap, un-tack everything, and release. I strongly suspect the push to get me to be able to do this is so that I can be slotted into that program. 

After all this concern herd behavior is going much higher up on my priority list, as is trying to get better at being more assertive and backing horses off of me sooner. I fortunately didn’t see any completely obnoxious behavior like you mentioned (the closest was the carrot-begging that got a reaction out of Dragon) - but if that’s careful cultivation or luck I cannot be sure. I’d imagine if we had that sort of perennial problem then the literal hourly in-and-out would have picked up on it. On the other hand, perhaps I missed the significance of being told there were new horses in the herd and having them pointed out to me - I had taken it for general chitter. 

Yeah, this is an area requiring of a lot more attention. 



gottatrot said:


> A riding analogy that helped me was to think of using a position similar to skiing. I'm not sure if you've ever been skiing, but as your speed picks up your body crouches more by bending through all the joints, while remaining balanced over your feet and through your core. Your joints all have to remain supple and loose, to absorb the shock of increasing speed. Your muscles have enough tension to maintain position and not fall down, but no more than enough that the bumps don't throw you off balance. Your upper arms remain lightly at the side of your body while riding, and you adjust the length of your reins with your hands. It's common for beginners to push their upper arms forward, or to pull them back behind their torsos rather than adjusting rein length.
> 
> Just as with rock climbing, any time you get out of shape from riding you will be sore again. I went on vacation so didn't ride for three weeks. After my first ride back, I was very muscle sore and very stiff after each time I sat down for awhile.


Sadly skiing - snow or water - is not on my list of hobbies. I tried cross-country once but so far my forays into the equestrian world has ended up much better for me. Let’s just say this won’t be the first time my ability to quickly pick up raw-basics led someone to think ‘let’s try something off the beginner trails’ was a good idea… I met a lot of nice bushes but I wouldn’t actually say I know how to ski.

That said, your description does make a lot of sense - particularly the bit about crouching, which answers one of my mental questions about why people seem to lean forward at higher speeds (aren’t I not supposed to lean forward because of balance?). 

I’m working on learning rein length adjustments but about the only one I’m reliable with right now is lengthening the reins at the walk because I really want Dragon to _like_ walking for me. 

I tend to find myself slowly creeping up them as we trot - but right now it’s not an intentional process. It goes something like this: We begin trotting, then Dragon speeds up (without me asking her to)… I try issuing a seat based slow down with very gentle rein movement - she ignores me. I realize I need to use the reins a bit but that they’ve gotten loose because she’s pulled her head in. I shorten my reins to try to get ready to issue a correction - but as soon as I do so she moves her head in and now they’re a bit long again… repeat until I’ve drawn in 4-6” of rein. 

Figuring out how to manage this is definitely on my to-do list, but it’s currently lower than working on my seat, posting timing, and steering while posting. My suspicion is that what I’m doing wrong has something to do with not starting by drawing up the reins when we switch from walk->trot but I genuinely don’t know at this point and I don’t want to be mucking with it too much until I know what I’m doing. 




tinyliny said:


> you will, in time , find out who has the most valuable advice to offer here. and gottatrot's is top notch.


The sentiment is appreciated and I'm working on it. I am definitely appreciative of the feedback I'm getting - including the critique. I think my appreciation of gottatrot's comments in particular is (hopefully) showing through.




TwoTap said:


> I agree that going into the herd and catching by yourself (even if supervised) was a quick move, but wanted to mention that you do not want to be bringing cookies or other special snacks out with you into the middle of the herd. You've had a little taste of the displeasure it can cause, especially as someone who is green and have not figured out how to make a horse move his feet. Horses are pushy and can sometimes act like dogs - jealous, they want what you're giving out, and they are also curious. "What's going on over here... Oh, cookies, you have cookies, I want a cookie. Gimme a cookie... Please?"
> 
> I used to lesson at a place that had the same procedure for lessons and a similar herd type set-up for turn out. If you *have* to use a cookie to catch your mount, I seriously recommend asking the instructor for help or for a different horse. Those situations can get dangerous, really quickly, as gottatrot pointed out. There were several times I or other students were almost trampled, stepped on, kicked or bitten as another horse that was loose would instigate, be pushy at the gate or tack themselves on behind the horse we were leading causing a rush-panic for whoever was leading.
> 
> I love reading your journal, it's well written, informative but also open-minded and entertaining.  I look forward to following it!


That’s actually a really good practical consideration. I was told to grab a carrot to go catch - but really I didn’t need it. I basically caught Dragon, _then_ gave her the carrot because now I have this carrot… And you’re right in that while handing the carrot over was about the time my couple nuisances started going from ‘curious’ to ‘nosy’ and getting in my space. On top of that I had walked in with _spare_ carrots - which I’m guessing they could smell and I did end up walking out with (I at least know that much about handling animals). I literally had carrots on me through this entire encounter. At a minimum that’s a mistake I won’t repeat.

I’m also a little glad to hear that this whole herd-dynamic isn’t totally unheard of - and heed the warning of pushiness. I had to back everyone off the gate to go in but after backing everyone off of us while putting the halter on we were left alone. 

Mostly I am just very glad that Dragon was calm enough to let me swing the rope that near her and literally thwack other horses with it to get them to back off. There’s probably a version of ‘hit them’ that involved my hands but to be honest I was much more comfortable with the distance the rope gave me. In retrospect I’m thinking I probably should have backed the other horses off before even going over to Dragon - do you agree? Or tried to lead Dragon out of the herd with just the rope held loosely enough for her to pull away if things got hairy and try to put the halter on while not standing in the middle of the freaking herd? The reason I didn’t do the later was because I didn’t want my horse-ducklings just following us to near the gate and I had a suspicion they just might.

I’m genuinely interested in advisement/stories from someone who has dealt with this dynamic.




NavigatorsMom said:


> Welcome to the forum and to the world of horses! You are very well-written and your journal is a pleasure to read.  I think there's something about starting to ride as an adult that allows for quicker progress than a child, and already you are moving along quite well and proving that.
> 
> Just a comment on a post you made a page or so back, about buying another pair of breeches and not being able to decide between whimsical or "show appropriate". You probably won't show for a while (although in a couple more lessons you could probably do a walk-trot kind of class, just saying!) but when you start you'll likely be doing lower-level, local stuff, which doesn't usually have as strict of a dress code. Sooo, if the cute or colorful type breeches make you happy, get some like that! I only rarely show, so I have one set of show breeches, but I school in black/grey, green, maroon, and navy (with electric green piping, hehe) breeches. I think fun colors are fun to ride in. I don't know if you know about SmartPak, but they have some super cute breeches in a variety of colors, some that are pretty neutral but with accents of color, if you don't want to go too out there!
> 
> I look forward to hearing about your progress!


Ah it was actually the _helmet_ I was debating rather than the breechers - so I was looking at a little more of an investment and something that might still be around in a few years should I happen to contemplate showing. But you’re right in the end I went with something both on the lower-end (though still certified of course) and a bit more whimsical - I’m now the proud owner of a ruby-red helmet to put over my mostly black-on-black riding gear. 

Maroon breeches you say? I may have to try that. Thank you for the tip on SmartPak! These do look nifty. So far I’ve been getting mostly drearily practical and inexpensive stuff as I really didn’t know what I wanted and needed to get ‘just something’ - I’ve been pleased with my purchases, but they’re mostly just utilitarian. 

Thank you for the warm welcome.


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## Rob55

Look into eventing. Try to find an eventing barn and trainer. Also you may enjoy fox hunting, competitive mountain trail and endurance. Folks who tell you you must choose between English and Western are more about their issues than yours. There are folks and horses comfortable in both genres. They don't usually try to convert others who do not understand. I know some who have western trail, dressage, and jumping saddles for the same horse. You can trail ride in any tack. If you do anything other than dressage; make sure you are athletic enough to get on that tall horse in the field. Something tells me you are. Forward, green and mean are three different things. A confident novice with balance can ride a forward horse. All forward horses do not have bad brakes. All forward horses are not insensitive to riders balance. Do ride more than one horse before you comitt to one. Also you might enjoy watching extreme mule riding on you tube. I'm 61 and I just started riding after a 40 year break. I'd always rather ride a horse that needs reining in than one that needs a kick. Have fun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny

you ask about better approach to herd entry and catching.

I like to get my horse to come to me. sometimes he will come AND the others come, but that's ok, too. there are a lot of descriptions on threads about "cant catch my horse" that talk about how to get a horse to come to you.


but in general, if you are getting ready to put the halter over Dragon's head, you can start by throwing the rope over her neck, to sort of hold her (she will think she is caught). then, if needed you can turn and cut off the approach of any others who want to get too close. It is better to stop them when you first see them even thinking about approaching. a lead horse will see the intention in a subordinant to encroach on the food or water he is controlling. the leader will see the tiniest shift in the body of the other horse and a pin of their ear, or taisl swich, or tightend jaw, is all it takes to let the other horse know they have been caught red handed.

to do that you have to have horses who believe you have authority, so one or two times you may need to have a whip to make a commotion or a short smack to let them know you DO have authority. after that, a dirty look or a hiss, or a little kick of dirt at them is all it takes IF you catch them right when they are considering testing your authority, not when theyve already had 5 free steps to approach you.

buy, again, I would want to be with you, to actually SHOW you what I mean for at least one or two times.


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## Horsef

Your description of the herd "incident" gave me palpitations. I suppose your instructor knows what she is doing and I gather she was around to help if anything got too dangerous.

I would practice putting the halter on in a low pressure environment so that you reduce the time you are exposed to other horses in the herd. I should take this advice myself, I still manage to put it on backwards after four years of riding  Best of luck.


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## Cammey

*Third lesson... or not*

This week, honestly, was not so great.

Work was a bit brutal, taking up most of my time and not allowing for much pursuit of other interests. I got pulled into a rather nasty bit of politics which required my attention and found out I was getting shipped off Sunday for a couple-day meeting I am somewhat dreading and which requires a significant amount of preparation. (I’m writing this currently from the plane). 

Trying to get a second riding lesson scheduled was met with only partial success after many frustrations (though we did find something bi-weekly which hopefully can start up in a few weeks). My helmet’s arrival was delayed due to being unexpectedly out of stock, though the second set of breechers did arrive.

While I really wanted to spend time focusing on herd behavior (a new priority after comments on my last post) I was only able to squeeze out time for a little bit of research - none of which I’m sure how useful it will prove. I managed to just barely maintain my stretching routine (with the new addition of the glute stretch) but physically that was about it. 

But I did arrange things to make sure that my flight out on Sunday would leave me with time to catch my lesson, shower, prep for travel, and still make it to the airport. This was giving me something to look forward to and focus on instead of the potentially nasty meeting. 

Welp, I got a text message at 5 am: lesson was cancelled due to rain. 

_Sigh_

In lieu of a post about the lesson I will be posting something I have been writing up more generally regarding my athletic background, since it seems to keep coming up. Hopefully people won’t find it too dull an alternative.


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## Cammey

*My Athletic Background*

For me athletic interests and fitness have always gone hand in hand. The activity is both a method and a motivation for general health. I have a very, very hard time convincing myself to go to the gym or watch my diet on the basis of appearance alone, and I’ve been fortunate in that carrying a few extra pounds around has never seriously impacted my day-to-day. If I’m going to put all the work into maintaining fitness I want to *do* something with it - because for me it really won’t happen on its own. I will never be ‘naturally thin’ or ‘naturally fit’. It’s a lot of constant work and small sacrifices if I want to keep myself healthy. Nothing besides the joy of an activity I love and am passionate about has been enough to motivate me for that. 

I’ve found - and lost - that motivation many times over my life. 

As a youth it was gymnastics. I was never very good, but I loved it. Beam and vault were my best events, and I would attend two or three days a week right after school before finding someone to drop me off back home.

That died in sixth grade with an ugly episode of not-well-handled  cellulitis of the leg. Without going into too many details I didn’t end up going to the hospital for it until it became a full-blown medical emergency (I was running a 105 fever and delirious), spent two weeks inpatient during which I almost lost the limb, and then was never taken for any follow-up care after I was released. It would be _two years_ before I could walk again without a limp, and another few after that before my leg stopped periodically giving out on me and sending me sprawling. With proper medical care I should have been fully healed up in a matter of months - but that’s not how things were to be. 

Trapped in the house with a walker I became depressed, reclusive, and gained a tremendous amount of weight. In the very long run this would actually end up benefiting me (I learned how to program computers at this time, which would drive my later career) but those were some incredibly dark years. 

If you’re wondering where I first developed an interest in horses - it was actually right around this time. I even went so far as to try to join the school’s pony club, but bullying and lack of opportunity to actually get anywhere near a horse killed my interest in it. Attending a club in which I could only _talk_ about riding and hear other people tell stories about their recent events as it turns out wasn’t much fun at all.

The next time I would do anything athletic would be in college. There I discovered SCA rapier (specifically heavy rapier) - which in very simple terms is mostly semi-competitive sword dueling.





. 

Note: I am not in that video - I do not have any good videos of any of my events and all of this was over ten years ago.

I had found a social group I loved and my interest in rapier led to a renewed interest in fitness in general. To be honest, my group probably took it all far too seriously - three two-hour sessions a week of practice, two weekly cross-training sessions lifting at the gym (with an ex-military guy as a group trainer), and then an unofficial private training session with just the experienced folks at someone’s house. This was the height of my athletic focus and the only period in my life where I genuinely managed a 6-day-a-week gym schedule. For about two years I genuinely considered myself an athlete.

I also dabbled in martial arts at this time - doing a year of Tae Kwon Do and a year of Tai Chi Chuan. I took a few lessons in modern combat knife-fighting. I learned archery. I took a few sport shooting classes. I learned to swing dance and swim in open water. None of this was in any way intended to be practical - but I thrived on the camaraderie and the culture. 

This ended with more a whimper than a bang. In my senior year of undergrad a combination of group politics and simple lack of time led me to the decision to step away from rapier and instead focus 100% of my energy towards my studies. The rest of my time until finishing my graduate degree I stepped foot inside a gym perhaps twice. I gained weight - but I had other things I was worrying about.

After graduating I moved states and tried to pick rapier back up again, but I was never able to find a group I felt comfortable with. Mind you, I don’t exactly consider myself a wilting violet when it comes to taking physical risks - but when several members of the local group were practicing without gorgets (neck protectors) because they found them uncomfortable I noped out in a single session. That was a fatal accident waiting to happen and I didn’t want to be responsible for killing someone.

I should have reported them. I didn’t.

The next few years were spent in a search to find something that motivated me. I tried Hapkido but other than my first formal lessons in falling properly I didn’t get much out of it. I moved to American Kenpo, which I loved and went through some belts in but which work scheduling made attending there and keeping up with my increasingly intense career near impossible. 

As a few years passed my weight officially crept up solidly into the obese category and I finally decided I needed to reverse course and just do _something_ for the sake of my health. During this period I tried ballroom dancing, weight lifting with a personal trainer, spin classes, aerobics and yoga. Most of my hours though were spent on an elliptical or in half-hearted attempts to learn to hate running less. I woke up in the mornings to go out and jog (I hate both jogging and mornings). I dieted aggressively to the point where it was bordering on unhealthy - counting every calorie in a spreadsheet and working to hit macro targets daily. In the end I lost 65 lbs and almost ten dress sizes in a little under ten months. 

This joyless fitness could only last so long. Work stress began to heat up and as I spent later and later nights at the office I could only convince myself to go so often. I would be up by 6:30 am, out the door by 7, in the office by 7:45 am, leave the office around 7:00-7:30 pm, then be back home by 9 pm having picked dinner up on the way back. 

I tried skipping dinner and going to the gym - it was a very bad idea.

I ended up getting into rock climbing the way most people do - you befriend someone who climbs who needs a climbing partner and they manage to talk you into it. A friend of mine - a med student with the same crazy schedule I had - had tried it a few times and loved it. This wouldn’t be the only time she talked me into things, but it would be the most successful.

Now it’s worth noting that I am almost humorously afraid of heights. This is far more common than you’d think among rock climbers and even though I’ve now been climbing for about nine years it still hasn’t really abated - though two fairly major falls during this time certainly haven’t helped.

Working through this has been difficult and not always successful. I could write a long post on all the methods and techniques I’ve employed. But in the end most days I end up being able to climb without too many issues, and on those I can’t bring myself to get more than halfway up the wall I just focus on routes that are at the absolute edge of my skill - so that getting even that far is a serious accomplishment. 

I’ve been talked into trying a few other things during the years - notably one (hilarious) attempt at cross-country skiing, several somewhat more successful hiking trips, and to be honest I’m probably forgetting a few here. I’m one of those people who’s usually up for trying new things. Depending on how dedicated I’ve been at any given time I may or may not have been going to the gym somewhat regularly to cross-train with both targeted weightlifting and whatever sort of cardio I hate least at the moment. 

Eventually the insanity of my career caught up with me. Travel made me an unreliable partner, and even trying to squeeze out one night a week and a weekend afternoon reliably became tough. This was sort of the ‘paying dues’ stage of my career. I even tried to find a way to mix climbing and networking by seeing if I could talk any of my peers out to the wall but I never pulled it off. Likewise, I was never talked into golf - though in retrospect I regret that.

Once again I sacrificed the short term for the long and decided to focus fully on my career. I ended up gaining weight (no surprise) and to be honest pretty seriously compromised my health in general - usually by not having time to have minor issues looked at until they became serious ones. This was a distressing cultural norm for the place I was in and all my time was spent either working or trying to deal with the fact I was working. I gave up all pretense of trying to be healthy.

Fortunately I ended up getting poached (targeted recruiting). They offered me significantly more money, saner working conditions, and a whole slew of high-value perks. I got to work 100% remote+travel. I moved into that rarified air where recruiters tend to call me rather than the other way around. I finally had free time again. While this new job would hardly be called ‘low stress’ it was still nice compared to what I was used to.

I moved again, this time purely because I liked the area better and had friends locally. During all this I had gotten almost back to my high weight from college and honestly in far worse actual health due to the various medical concerns. I started to rectify that and was able to get back to climbing again - though the weight was dropping much more slowly this time than it had during my dedicated weight-loss days. 

Then I had my one and only serious climbing injury - a freak accident from hardly 10 feet up. I was bouldering (climbing low heights without any rope) and jumped down after completing a route. My toe caught in a divot in my catch mat and I ended up with my rear end landing on my heel while it was trapped point-down and my other leg had sprawled forward. I hyperextended the ankle, did significant soft tissue damage to my toes, and fractured the big-toe metatarsal in my foot. Climbing shoes are a wonderful thing because that could have been much worse. As it was everything stayed more or less compressed into place. Healing from the injury took about 4 months without being able to climb at all and another 2 months of being gentle and regaining strength. 

Almost as soon as I got back my climbing partner pulled a tendon in her arm which would prove to be a persistent injury despite very regular medical care and PT, followed by two other similarly frustrating strain-injuries. She had sat through my serious injury and now I endeavored to prevail through hers. She wasn’t off the wall nearly as long as I was but it was a lot spottier - she’d recover only to re-injure after a few climbs. This type of injury is miserably frustrating and I endeavored to be flexible while she endeavored to push herself to climb whenever she could. 

Now, we both share the same sort of drive and tendency to push ourselves, and in some ways I think she may be more competitive and determined than I am. But as the months went on it was becoming clear that she needed more than a few weeks off at a time. To her credit she seemed to realize that too. Meanwhile my other partner was starting to have trouble with scheduling and then eventually moved. On one hand I didn't want to abandon my friend and try to find another person to climb with entirely (if I could even manage it) but on the other the literal year and a half of not being able to reliably get on the wall was weighing on me in just about every sense of the term. 

I decided I needed a new focus.

Somehow I got it into my head that I wanted to seriously try ballet. In my opinion this is probably the craziest fitness idea I ever followed through on. Here I am, overweight at 31, standing in a leotard in an ‘adult ballet’ class filled mostly with sevette 18-22 year olds. There are a lot of different types of ‘adult ballet’ ranging from gentle and technical to brutal and fast - this was the later. We were doing various little jumps to releve and saute exercies within the first week. Now, I had done enough prep work (... about two months worth) that I at least could in fact stand in a good releve in the various ballet positions, follow the instructions being given, and fake my way through visible turnout - but most classes still left me barely able to walk down the studio stairs at the end without my legs threatening to give out. I was getting stronger fast - but not fast enough to keep up.






Also around this time I had a client who required frequent travel and the classes were a serious challenge for me to get to after work due to scheduling. _Maybe_ I could have kept up if I hadn’t missed so many classes, and maybe some day I will even return. I know we were doing all those jumps because that instructor seriously intended to help let any student dedicated enough eventually get to pointe - which means strengthening the ankles, calves and feet to the point that it would be safe. She started early because she was treating us like serious students who shouldn’t be stopped from achieving that most common ballet dream just because we started after age fourteen - which I loved. She frankly was a great instructor - but my own inadequacies in comparison to the rest of the class caught up to me. I was the weakest link.

My ballet adventure ended after about three months. At the absolute least I have gained a new love of and appreciation for the art. I now look forward to getting shipped to London for work trips, where the Royal Ballet performs. The process has enriched my life even if I never go back to another class. 

That was my most recent attempt to find a passion - ending in July. I’ve gained a couple pounds since then, as the cycle tends to go. But only a couple - because it really hadn’t been that long.

The rest of this story is continued in my introductory post to the forum. 


A few other notes of possible general interest:



 While I usually count myself firmly on the academic/scientific side I’ve also done meditation practices in a variety of forms on and off since middle school. So I’m fairly familiar with a lot of the mindset and techniques involved in a couple of different style. I actually kind of intend to _avoid_ talking about this as I don’t want to get into what can quickly turn into a spiritual discussion (or worse, debate) on an unrelated board - but as it relates to horses the whole ‘centered’ or ‘empathy’ approach to things isn’t at all an absurd idea to me. 


 I’ve been vegetarian since I was 14 - lacto ovo but strict. When given an option I will opt to avoid any materials that involve killing an animal (so no leather, but wool is fine). I have had to break this rule *many* times where I couldn’t reasonably avoid it - but when given the choice I go for synthetic even if it means replacing things more often.


 As mentioned previously, I have an issue with some type of inflammatory arthritis - suspected (but not confirmed) to be rheumatoid arthritis. We can confirm the swelling but it’s not quite typical (specifically it’s asymmetrical and the pattern of joints affected is a little weird for how RA most commonly starts). This started about three years ago and has been progressing very slowly (thankfully). At its worst it’s caused full joint immobility and exhaustion to the point of having a hard time getting out of bed - but usually it’s either dormant or a few annoying achy joints, a bit of fatigue, and stiffness in the morning. There is some very minor permanent damage to my joints that can only be seen when comparing x-rays but at this point it’s functionally ignorable when not flared up. Paradoxically, exercising on a sore joint tends to make them clear up faster. This makes zero intuitive sense to me, but it’s reliable. So I will push myself through joint pain and flare-ups to some extent and this isn’t me being irresponsible. I am encouraged not to let myself get sedentary or limit my range of motion due to soreness as that can apparently have worse long term effects. I am cleared by my doctor for all sports/activities I can tolerate the pain of, even when actively flaring up.

Thank you to anyone who bothered to read this whole text block.


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## Cammey

tinyliny said:


> you ask about better approach to herd entry and catching.
> 
> I like to get my horse to come to me. sometimes he will come AND the others come, but that's ok, too. there are a lot of descriptions on threads about "cant catch my horse" that talk about how to get a horse to come to you.
> 
> but in general, if you are getting ready to put the halter over Dragon's head, you can start by throwing the rope over her neck, to sort of hold her (she will think she is caught). then, if needed you can turn and cut off the approach of any others who want to get too close. It is better to stop them when you first see them even thinking about approaching. a lead horse will see the intention in a subordinant to encroach on the food or water he is controlling. the leader will see the tiniest shift in the body of the other horse and a pin of their ear, or taisl swich, or tightend jaw, is all it takes to let the other horse know they have been caught red handed.
> 
> to do that you have to have horses who believe you have authority, so one or two times you may need to have a whip to make a commotion or a short smack to let them know you DO have authority. after that, a dirty look or a hiss, or a little kick of dirt at them is all it takes IF you catch them right when they are considering testing your authority, not when theyve already had 5 free steps to approach you.
> 
> buy, again, I would want to be with you, to actually SHOW you what I mean for at least one or two times.


The descriptive theory at least makes sense. The practice will likely require... well practice. 

As far as teaching the horses I have authority - I'm probably still being gentler than I should be. I'm not exactly inclined to get nervous or back away (so I think that's probably good), but hitting an animal is still a little counterintuitive, even if it's the right answer. While I'm willing to do it admittedly I was wanting to offer LOTS of warnings/opportunities before I resorted to it - and that's probably letting them get away with too much in the process. If it comes up again (especially with the same two horses I already warned about this) I will both start warning sooner and be a bit sterner. 




Horsef said:


> Your description of the herd "incident" gave me palpitations. I suppose your instructor knows what she is doing and I gather she was around to help if anything got too dangerous.
> 
> I would practice putting the halter on in a low pressure environment so that you reduce the time you are exposed to other horses in the herd. I should take this advice myself, I still manage to put it on backwards after four years of riding  Best of luck.


Jill moved around during all this. I lost track of her during my initial walk into the herd but by the time I was actually putting the harness on she was sitting on the fence near where this was all going on - though seeming quite intentionally to not have her sort of sphere of influence directly over the situation (not sure how to describe this, but I think people will understand what I mean) and instead just to trying to give me instructions and let me handle it. 

You're 100% right about needing to be better with the halter (and it didn't help I picked one that was fairly snug on Dragon). In theory I was shown this during my first lesson but admittedly it didn't register as being the most critical thing we went over so I wasn't paying as rapt attention as I wish I had.


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## Cammey

Rob55 said:


> Look into eventing. Try to find an eventing barn and trainer. Also you may enjoy fox hunting, competitive mountain trail and endurance. Folks who tell you you must choose between English and Western are more about their issues than yours. There are folks and horses comfortable in both genres. They don't usually try to convert others who do not understand. I know some who have western trail, dressage, and jumping saddles for the same horse. You can trail ride in any tack. If you do anything other than dressage; make sure you are athletic enough to get on that tall horse in the field. Something tells me you are. Forward, green and mean are three different things. A confident novice with balance can ride a forward horse. All forward horses do not have bad brakes. All forward horses are not insensitive to riders balance. Do ride more than one horse before you comitt to one. Also you might enjoy watching extreme mule riding on you tube. I'm 61 and I just started riding after a 40 year break. I'd always rather ride a horse that needs reining in than one that needs a kick. Have fun.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll be honest, right now I _love_ the idea of eventing - the way the different disciplines show off different facets of skill and training is really amazing to me on so many levels. Dressage is really kind of magical to me and Cross country in particluar has a lot of romantic appeal for the same reasons fox hunting does. I love the freedom of movement involved and just find it stunningly beautiful. Of course, that sort of jumping is also the one thing that genuinely makes me a little nervous to contemplate right now - just because of the potential consequences of some of the falls for both horse and rider. Here we find the self-preservation instinct I think some people may feel I'm lacking - I'd love to do it, but foundation, foundations, safety, and foundations.

The barn I'm at right now mostly does hunter/jumper but also will train all three areas of eventing at the lower levels - though they do the schooling for it at another facility with an actual cross country course. That other facility I know also has their own trainers there as well, but requires you have your own horse. As far as I've seen most of the eventing places around here require that.

I have absolutely nothing against western actually. I felt I had to pick where to start based on the beginner classes offered as it seems that everyone is offering one or the other but not both. In the longer term I'd love to try as many differnet styles as I can safely manage. I find some of the various 'rodeo' sports a bit cruel for my taste - but others look quite interesting and anything trail/pleasure looks kind of lovely. Really though my current view is a little like with picking up different martial arts - in the end almost certainly beneficial to get diversity, but trying to start out it's better to get a foundation in one rather than trying to pick two up at the same time and confuse yourself. That might be an entirely wrong-headed way to look at it based on comparisons that don't exist - but it was sort of my initial instinct in the matter. I'd be happy to hear opposing views however. 

I haven't tried mounting from the ground quite yet but am fairly sure that the athletics of it won't be a problem. Mostly I am just worried about annoying the horse until I get the technique right to do it lightly and without wrenching the sturrup around as I go up. I really like the term 'forward' horse because I think it caputres the feeling - just a lot of energy and joy in the movement which is sort of infectous. I'm comforted to know that this can exist without the stopping issues. I'll be honest, I'll deal with the stopping issues for the joy of having this much energy to move forward, and I'm even glad to be learning to deal with it now... but stopping sometime would be nice.

And yes, I want to try out a lot of horses. I know I will get some diversity just in lessons because of the way that things work at this stable - but I actually would like to have an opportunity to ride more variety. Most of the rideable full sized horses in this herd are OTTBs or Throughbred crosses of some sort - just because that's what Jill loves. I'd like to get a chance to try something that's _not_ that at some point before I seriously look into leasing/owning a horse so I can understand what other types of horses are like. I'm getting one very particluar view of the world right now and am aware of it. 

I did not know competitive mountain trail was a thing - I am very curious about this and will be looking into it more. Extreme Mule Riding looks strangely awesome - though I lack the rock foundations around here that seem to make it the most exciting.

Thank you so much for commenting. Your insight is appreciated.


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## gottatrot

Cammey said:


> There is some very minor permanent damage to my joints that can only be seen when comparing x-rays but at this point it’s functionally ignorable when not flared up. Paradoxically, exercising on a sore joint tends to make them clear up faster. This makes zero intuitive sense to me, but it’s reliable. So I will push myself through joint pain and flare-ups to some extent and this isn’t me being irresponsible. I am encouraged not to let myself get sedentary or limit my range of motion due to soreness as that can apparently have worse long term effects. I am cleared by my doctor for all sports/activities I can tolerate the pain of, even when actively flaring up.


Very interesting to hear about all your athletic pursuits. I've always been an athlete too, but was only briefly serious about several sports other than riding and running, which I've done regularly for 26 years (started running on my 13th birthday). I'll participate in basketball, volleyball, swimming, skiing, tennis, cycling, kayaking, roller blading, pretty much any sport. But in order to become proficient you have to put in the time, the effort, the learning and have the passion, which I've only ever had for riding and running.

With arthritic horses too, we're always told it is better for them to keep moving and not be sedentary. A vet around here tells people with older horses to keep them turned out because they stiffen up more and have more pain when kept in stalls.


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## Cammey

gottatrot said:


> Very interesting to hear about all your athletic pursuits. I've always been an athlete too, but was only briefly serious about several sports other than riding and running, which I've done regularly for 26 years (started running on my 13th birthday). I'll participate in basketball, volleyball, swimming, skiing, tennis, cycling, kayaking, roller blading, pretty much any sport. But in order to become proficient you have to put in the time, the effort, the learning and have the passion, which I've only ever had for riding and running.
> 
> With arthritic horses too, we're always told it is better for them to keep moving and not be sedentary. A vet around here tells people with older horses to keep them turned out because they stiffen up more and have more pain when kept in stalls.


I've always had a lot of respect (... and maybe a touch of envy) for people who can really manage running as an activity. I've tried many, many times to do it but I've just never been able to get to a point where it's not just a raw exertion of willpower to keep going. I do agree about needing passion - honestly I often have difficulty maintaining even _two_ really dedicated at the same time - simply because when I find free time I instantly want to spend it all working on whatever is the *most* interesting thing - which I then become better/more invested in, and the process reinforces until I'm functionally back down to one. That said I feel sometimes we under appreciate the bits of time that get spent in just trying out and doing occasional/one-off activities. It takes probably a year of work to become much _good_ at most sports/physical events (some much longer) even if you start from a pretty fit baseline - but sometimes only an hour or so to really _enjoy_ them (or maybe even learn something from the). What is really more important? I tend to believe enjoyment/learning - even in sports where I have put in the work. 

In the context of arthritic horses it both makes sense to me that it's not good to let them not get any exercise and yet I still feel an awful lot of sympathy by extension. 

It's tricky to describe how freaking weird it feels in practice to work against a flare. Have you ever had a mild/moderate sports injury like a pulled/strained muscle? Ok, that's about analogous to a moderately bad flare up pain-wise (... having gotten to deal with both). 

So imagine if someone told you that exercising on that would make it feel better the next day. It hurts like you'd expect the day you exercise (though joints, unlike strained muscles, seem to 'cap out' pain-wise and _motion_ hurts but I can often put some pressure on them without making it worse than just the movement itself - it's weird and isn't always intuitive). The joint hurts like you'd expect during the exercise and even gets a little worse as the exercise goes on - but by the next day it feels significantly better and evidence reliably shows that exercising on it tends to make the flares go down faster than not exercising does (though some caution is required depending on a lot of factors). 

No matter how well I intellectually know that what I'm doing will actually help there's still a strong instinctual feeling of "anything that hurts like this just _cannot_ be a good idea" which takes some getting used to in order to ignore. It really does have the same 'don't move it' instinct as an injury does. 

So I don't know if osteoarthritis behaves anything like inflammatory arthritis, or how those human arthritis forms line up to horse arthritis - though I'd be quite curious. Is it that in horses it makes it better (as it does for my inflammatory arthritis) or is it just that letting things atrophy will be a general downhill spiral? Any way we slice it I have a lot of sympathy for the horse in that position.


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## Cammey

*Gym Time (First time back...)*
In a perfect world I would be able to work on getting fit for horse riding via more horse riding. Unfortunately, right now I can only get an (not even entirely reliable) weekly lesson, and when I move up to two they’ll both be right after each other. We’re also still focused enough on basic technique and form that we’re not yet really pushing me physically. As much as possible I’d like to try to stay out ahead of that curve, so that I can be focusing on what I need to do rather than on not having the strength, flexibility or stamina to do it.

So I decided this week I would try to actually make it back into the gym again. My joints were just recovering from the weekend’s flare-up, but I still wasn’t feeling great. So I made the deal with myself that I often do to get myself to the gym: at least 5 minutes of cardio and _attempt_ 3 exercises and then if I want I can go. This usually gets me in the door, which proves to be the hard part.

Today was still short, but I at least beat those low expectations:


 15 minutes light/moderate cardio via elliptical
 Hip Abductor Machine (75lbs x 15 reps x 3 sets, 90lbs x 15 reps x 1 set, 100lbs x 15 reps x 1 set) - First time ever trying this. Usually hip abductors are a stabilizer muscle so I don't bother exercising them standalone (it can actually cause imbalances if over-worked). But they were sore enough after posting trot I thought it might be worth it to do at least a little bit. I was trying to start light on the machine but to my surprise I probably started a little _too_ light.
 Back Extension Machine (75 lbs x 15 reps x 2 sets, 80 lbs x 15 reps x 1 set) - This is the one exercise I reliably do every time, because it has stopped my back from getting thrown out somewhat regularly (as it used to). This was also the hardest thing I did today.
 Leg Press (125lbs x 8 reps x 1 set - then aborted) - I knew this one would be risky but I really wanted to target my glutes. However, as I feared, my knees disliked this even at this rather low weight (compared to oh, standing up from a chair at 180 lbs). I stopped before I hurt myself. 
 Ab Machine (50 lbs x 15 reps x 3 sets) - I used this because it’s gentler than actual sit ups while still getting the full range of motion. Sit ups reliably hurt my back. Plank is great but it's static. More exotic things that don’t involve laying on my back (ab wheel, hanging ab exercises) were too hard for first-time-back. This was my compromise. 
 Hyperextensions (15 reps, 12 reps, 10 reps - bodyweight only) - Note: This exercise is controversial for good reason. I am personally a fan - but it is very easy (and alluringly fun) to do it wrong and risk hurting yourself in one of several different ways. 

All told it was about a 30 minute session and I didn’t max out anything - not a terrible way to get back. I followed it up with a more comprehensive and serious stretching routine than I’ve done in a while, targeting the calves, hamstrings, glutes, hip flexors, back, shoulders, and neck. 

I’m also starting to just lightly play around with my diet again and toying with healthy eating. I’m not committing to anything yet, but I am reintroducing Quest Bars (my favorite protein bar) to my diet and just generally trying to make sure I at least theoretically have the building blocks to create any muscle that decides to show up. As a vegetarian, I actually watch protein, iron, calcium and b-vitamins to make sure I hit _at least_ my RDA when I’m going to be exercising. I’m not trying to do anything crazy here - just not wind up deficient.

I haven’t decided if I want to lose weight. I originally thought this would be an important factor and I was honestly very self-conscious about the fact I might be hurting the horse by riding as an untrained 180lb ‘sack of sand’ as I’ve seen it mentioned in some places… and I *do* feel a little guilty that my awkward attempts to post trot may be annoying the heck out of Dragon. But for now with both the horse I’m riding and the other horses that appear to be in my immediate future I’m pretty sure the _untrained_ part is important but the extra 20-35 lbs I’m carrying isn’t making a huge difference. This may change if I either end up on smaller horses or as I start looking at things like jumping - but for now I'm back to weight being more about vanity than about health or activity... so we'll see if I can dredge up any motivation to actually count calories.


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## Cammey

*Prep Week*

Despite quite a rough start to the week I feel moderately accomplished. 

The time in the airport and flying left me with a good deal of time to read, which I put to use on the books that had been recommended - finishing up an initial read through of _The Centered Rider_ by Sally Swift and making significant headway into _Riding and Schooling Horses_ by Harry Chamberlin. I’ll likely go into more detail with my thoughts on these in another post. 

I spent a fair bit of time trying to research herd dynamics and catching in a herd environment. This actually turned out to be more difficult than I had anticipated and I didn’t run across as much as I had hoped I would. There was a lot of advice/material on how to catch a difficult-to-catch horse in a small group or pasture environment, but ironically that is not really my challenge at the moment.

I ended up back at the Think Like a Horse channel again. As I’ve mentioned before: As a person, I’m not fond of this guy. Most of the times he opens his mouth about humans I feel the world is slightly worse for it. But I do find some of his commentary _on horses_ quite interesting and have found him to be one of the few people who takes the time to actually document and comment on the details of horse behavior. 


In addition to my research activities I also did a bit more pragmatic planning. I managed to find a promising looking stable around here that does ‘quarter leases’ on horses - just twice weekly 2-hour slots for a relatively inexpensive fee. They’re also open late enough that I could realistically make it there after work for these slots. This looks excellent for my desire to find some time to be ‘just working on my skills’ and supplement lessons once I get to the point of being able to ride independently. Though they _also_ warn on their website that you’re expected to be able to go out into group pastures and catch/tack/release your own horse… so on the plus side at least I’m already working on that. 

On one final note, my ‘Ruby Red’ riding helmet finally arrived. It’s more a crimson color - which was unexpected, but I love. Picture of it on an actual bright red object for comparison:


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## Cammey

*Lesson Three: A Rising Trot Lesson*

Today’s lesson was considerably more sedate than the prior two.

The pasture near the gate was incredibly muddy from the rain that has been falling all week, and the horses were mid-breakfast, so Jill looked down at my boots, realized they were short, and said she'd go grab Dragon. Then I groomed her and was given a lesson in how to pick out hooves and what can happen if you don’t (thrush). I did most, but not all, of the tacking up and then we started the lesson off with a bit of a walking sans stirrups and then a little western jog.

Dragon was considerably more sedate today than in prior lessons. She had been sleepy enough during grooming that her head was actually awkwardly low when buckling straps on her bridle, and for the first time during riding I found myself more telling her to speed up and _not_ slow down rather than the other way around - at least for the first two thirds of the lesson. She went to the walk easily and without complaints, and only a couple times did I have to stop her from running off with me. 

I finally think I am ‘getting’ western jog. I understand the cue for getting her head down and have figured out how to do it without leaning forward (which I had been doing). It really does feel like a different gait from the perspective of riding it. There’s a lot less up-and-down motion compared to her typical English-style trot (which can get quite bouncy) - not entirely flat, but kind of close, to the point where it almost feels like the saddle is rocking a bit rather than bouncing. She also seemed a lot happier to get into it today, rather than trying to constantly rush forward and intentionally slip into a more energetic gait as she usually does.

The majority of the lesson was, as expected, spent on rising trot. I’d say I got the motion maybe 70% of the time. 

Steering was dramatically, dramatically improved from last time - just right out the gate. I also figured out (though did not manage to consistently implement) how to use my leg to keep her on the rail at the same time as I am posting without compromising my body position. While I wasn’t able to perfectly keep her on the rail, the pair of us at least no longer looked like drunk drivers and I could now weave her around the gates while posting. I noticed I’m steering a bit more with the reins in general instead of steering from my seat, though I tried a couple things to do some light seat-steering and it kind of seemed to work.

We started to work on worrying about which diagonal I was posting on and on switching diagonals when I changed directions on turns (‘started’ being the operative word on that last one). Looking forward to check which diagonal I am on seems to really unbalance me right now and I have a tendency to stay down too long on the switching move. We did some practicing of just 'switching' randomly without worrying about which one was 'correct' just so I could try to get the concept down... I think practicing this one may have annoyed Dragon a bit. 

My hands were an awful lot easier to keep steady while posting (though they’re apparently now a bit too far back and the reins still a bit too loose). It was suggested I actually lean forward a bit more than I was doing in general - which confused me a little, but I tried to implement (though it made posting feel much more precarious). My ankles kept drifting upwards a bit when I got into faster trots and wasn’t paying attention - though I am completely capable of keeping them in perfect position if I focus on them. 

So I’ve got an awful lot of work to do on this, but it's coming along.

At the very end we did a little riding over two cavaletti poles placed several strides apart. I was expecting this to be no different from riding around the ring, but actually Dragon shifted her timing slightly and I ended up behind her movement, then trying to catch up, then actually a little off-balance for the first time in the lesson (having been trying to lean forward a bit more per discussion). I actually ended up balancing lightly off her neck with one hand at the end of one of the runs. I’m still not quite sure what happened there, but I’d like to try it a few more times to figure it out. 

Dragon still doesn’t like stopping. Even in her relaxed-to-the-point-of-sleepy mood today I ended up having to fight with her a little about halting… though we _did_ manage one perfectly timed halt (though brief) between the two cavaletti poles… then of course she went to walk off too soon. (must I hold rein pressure all the time to keep her still? I genuinely use more pressure here than for anything else I ever do). 

Overall, it was a nice quiet little lesson. I really wish I was able to practice all of this a lot more. 

Next weekend unfortunately Jill is unavailable for lessons - and that was supposed to be the two-lesson weekend. I am seriously considering taking her up on the early-morning lesson slot on Saturday as well. I seriously may need to take up the practice of napping.


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## LlamaPacker

I have only gotten through your first riding lesson (back on page 1), but want to let you know what a great writer you are and how interesting you are making this adventure. I started reading your journal in part just to find out about Member Journals before I perhaps start my own, but am hooked now, as this business of how people are taught to ride is very interesting to me and you make it easy to visualize. Thank you for sharing! --LP


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## phantomhorse13

Cammey said:


> I am seriously considering taking her up on the early-morning lesson slot on Saturday as well. I seriously may need to take up the practice of napping.


Now we know you are hooked, if you are willing to get out of bed early on a weekend! 

Totally worth it, IMO. :cowboy:


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## StephaniHren

Cammey said:


> We started to work on worrying about which diagonal I was posting on and on switching diagonals when I changed directions on turns (‘started’ being the operative word on that last one).


Of all the things that were different when I started riding English instead of western, catching my diagonals was probably the one that took me the longest to get down. My only advice is to try closing your eyes to feel the motion of the horse's feet while you do a seated trot, and to find a point on the shoulder to check, since the point of the shoulder's what you need to be looking at.


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## Horsef

Adult begginer here (well, I am going to be so bold to call myself novice now, four years later). I would like to pre-empt your upcomming irritation with the speed at which you are learning. What's going to happen soon is you will get irritable because you will progress slower than you think you should be progressing. You will think: I was shown how to do this already twice, I should know how to do it.

The thing is, riding is basically like walking or driving a car: the fact that a child might know theoretically how to do it doesn't mean she can do it until it becomes automatic. I read that such physical activities become automatic only when the neurons in the spine take over the processing because the signal which travels from the brain simply takes too long for the action to be well timed. And spine will only take over with enough repetition. So, relax, and enjoy the practicing


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## StephaniHren

Horsef said:


> Adult begginer here (well, I am going to be so bold to call myself novice now, four years later). I would like to pre-empt your upcomming irritation with the speed at which you are learning. What's going to happen soon is you will get irritable because you will progress slower than you think you should be progressing. You will think: I was shown how to do this already twice, I should know how to do it.
> 
> The thing is, riding is basically like walking or driving a car: the fact that a child might know theoretically how to do it doesn't mean she can do it until it becomes automatic. I read that such physical activities become automatic only when the neurons in the spine take over the processing because the signal which travels from the brain simply takes too long for the action to be well timed. And spine will only take over with enough repetition. So, relax, and enjoy the practicing


THIS x 100


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## LlamaPacker

Early a.m. now, happens more often as get older  but will give me time to read HF more. Through only post 30 (realized different sizes of computer screens might bring up different "pages", so referring by posts will be better), and still finding this fascinating. You are clearly brilliant to be able to lay out activities and feelings to them so clearly, plus respond to each person's posts so well. Mostly very brave to be on, and be enjoying, such a big energetic horse on first lesson! I'm also finding the videos and books that people have mentioned a really good resource — will have a hard time keeping up with this pace — but sure appreciate all the accumulated and new wisdom you're generating. Will read more tomorrow...


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## Cammey

LlamaPacker said:


> Early a.m. now, happens more often as get older  but will give me time to read HF more. Through only post 30 (realized different sizes of computer screens might bring up different "pages", so referring by posts will be better), and still finding this fascinating. You are clearly brilliant to be able to lay out activities and feelings to them so clearly, plus respond to each person's posts so well. Mostly very brave to be on, and be enjoying, such a big energetic horse on first lesson! I'm also finding the videos and books that people have mentioned a really good resource — will have a hard time keeping up with this pace — but sure appreciate all the accumulated and new wisdom you're generating. Will read more tomorrow...



I’m glad you’ve been enjoying it. Mostly I’m just trying to go through my experiences - and yes, enjoying the responses. 


Seriously, Dragon is an absolute joy - energetic and forward, but also patient and utterly unfazed (at least in the context of her home outdoor arena - zero idea how she’d be outside that). My biggest fear with her was that she wouldn’t stay still to let me dismount, but that’s turned out to be a complete non-issue. I do actually understand why she can serve the role of beginner lesson horse - she’s incredibly patient. She just wants to *go*. But it's far more joyous than scary. 

The influx of resources on here has definitely been awesome. 






phantomhorse13 said:


> Now we know you are hooked, if you are willing to get out of bed early on a weekend!
> 
> 
> Totally worth it, IMO. :cowboy:



Yeah… I’ve now signed up for Saturday & Sunday early AM lessons. I am really, really hoping we can move one of these to a saner hour - but at least I’ll be getting time in.




StephaniHren said:


> Of all the things that were different when I started riding English instead of western, catching my diagonals was probably the one that took me the longest to get down. My only advice is to try closing your eyes to feel the motion of the horse's feet while you do a seated trot, and to find a point on the shoulder to check, since the point of the shoulder's what you need to be looking at.



I do agree I need to get to feel the motion and be able to tell by that. I can actually tell diagonal by looking at the shoulder - but even that is messing up my balance and timing right now as it takes probably 90% of my focus not to mess those up by themselves. 


I’ll get it eventually, just need a bit of time. 




Horsef said:


> Adult begginer here (well, I am going to be so bold to call myself novice now, four years later). I would like to pre-empt your upcomming irritation with the speed at which you are learning. What's going to happen soon is you will get irritable because you will progress slower than you think you should be progressing. You will think: I was shown how to do this already twice, I should know how to do it.



Honestly right now I’m kind of amazed at how quickly this is moving. Am I a bit frustrated that I keep rising up on my ankles? A little - but to be fair to myself an awful lot is getting thrown at me at once. Mostly I just don’t want to annoy my instructor by watching me make the same mistakes and I kind of wish I had some time to just go solidify things on my own. Just generally I am driven to try to be a good student who listens, takes and tries to incorporate corrections/feedback, and does whatever work I can do outside lessons to try to improve.


So really my real internal goal right now is to get safe enough with horses to be able to independently and responsibly get a quarter-lease on a horse (since that’s a thing around here) and be able to put some hours into practicing my fundamentals when I can do so at my own pace. 


Specifically, right now I really would want to work on walking on the horse without stirrups and feeling the motion of the horse through the saddle without having to look down at the saddle. If I had a quarter lease today, that's what I'd be working on. I don't even think I'd attempt posting trot without an instructor present quite yet.


But yeah, right now my lesson time is my only practice time. You don’t learn to play a musical instrument just because your hands can find the right position one time - it takes a tremendous amount of practice, and you speed up the tempo just a little or add another element and suddenly everything is going to **** again. I’m anticipating that.


I just wish I could practice more.


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## LlamaPacker

Can't tell where you live, but down by my folks house out in the country in CA, including in their pasture, there are lots of horses just standing around with no one using them. Old people like my parents, father hasn't ridden for a long time, now almost 85, would love to have someone come along and be willing to ride their babies. Mom has told me that in the past, so one idea is to take your Hold Harmless Agmt (easy to find lots of those from stables on internet or like the one you already signed) and go hat-in-hand to look for a nice horse to ride. Maybe it's different in other parts of the world, don't know.

That's the same thing with the little pony I just got this summer, as have this need to have a horse-y around, apparently, since at age where have more time and those old passions want to surface (maybe someday pony will be for g-dtr). Right now, I've been looking for an experienced kid to ride her, hopefully train her for showing and so forth, as she is from a line of show ponies. Did not find a child like that in our very rural area, so instead am having the 11-yr-old neighbor girl go to 4H with me and we'll see if we can get the pony to riding better. 

I'd prefer to have found a child with actual riding experience, so as not to "ruin" whatever training the pony might have, and this little girl has not had any of the advantages of many girls, like gymnastics or organized sports, so her balance is very bad and I can see that her coordination on reins will be a long time coming (she does not use any yet, just lead line). However, does make me feel good to be able to give a child the experience and to see "my little pony" improve. As have said in other posts, she's a little beauty (little horse, really, being reg. Welsh/Qtr, 12-2h, 12yo mare, strawberry roan) and I'm so happy to have found her. Although am having lots of anxiety over things I didn't know would have to be worried about, such as too much pasture. Hope you have the same luck with finding one that you love to practice on!

Also, given what you said about privacy issues, I broadened my location to cover a few more states and try when posting pictures to blur faces and not to give any identifying background, although a very dedicated searcher would probably be able to find me, as llamas are not all that common against terraced hillsides! Awful that we have to worry about such things, but as will eventually come up on my own Member Journal, I learned at age 14 there are lots of perverts out there when selling a little Shetland stallion, so do not have a FB page and am very leery about this whole internet tell-everything culture.


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## LlamaPacker

Darn edit feature cut me off! Was going back in to say that having people who want horses ridden does cover a bigger area, as remembered when I lived in a faraway state, a co-worker had offered me the use of her stabled horse, much nicer than anything I'd had as a kid, but except for riding it one time (I was kind of scared in the snow and ice, hadn't had that before), I didn't take her up on it. Realize now that having other neighbor kids to ride with (all rag-tag like me, never any formal training, but boys were naturally helping "break" my ponies in the right gentle) may have made part of the fun for me when young and was probably also suffering from effects of Post-Traumatic Fall Disorder (just learned that phrase here at HF!) The PTFD raised its head earlier this summer when the little molly mule bucked the kids and me off (that's a story for another day on my MJ...)


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## Cammey

LlamaPacker said:


> Can't tell where you live, but down by my folks house out in the country in CA, including in their pasture, there are lots of horses just standing around with no one using them. Old people like my parents, father hasn't ridden for a long time, now almost 85, would love to have someone come along and be willing to ride their babies. Mom has told me that in the past, so one idea is to take your Hold Harmless Agmt (easy to find lots of those from stables on internet or like the one you already signed) and go hat-in-hand to look for a nice horse to ride. Maybe it's different in other parts of the world, don't know.
> 
> That's the same thing with the little pony I just got this summer, as have this need to have a horse-y around, apparently, since at age where have more time and those old passions want to surface (maybe someday pony will be for g-dtr). Right now, I've been looking for an experienced kid to ride her, hopefully train her for showing and so forth, as she is from a line of show ponies. Did not find a child like that in our very rural area, so instead am having the 11-yr-old neighbor girl go to 4H with me and we'll see if we can get the pony to riding better.
> 
> I'd prefer to have found a child with actual riding experience, so as not to "ruin" whatever training the pony might have, and this little girl has not had any of the advantages of many girls, like gymnastics or organized sports, so her balance is very bad and I can see that her coordination on reins will be a long time coming (she does not use any yet, just lead line). However, does make me feel good to be able to give a child the experience and to see "my little pony" improve. As have said in other posts, she's a little beauty (little horse, really, being reg. Welsh/Qtr, 12-2h, 12yo mare, strawberry roan) and I'm so happy to have found her. Although am having lots of anxiety over things I didn't know would have to be worried about, such as too much pasture. Hope you have the same luck with finding one that you love to practice on!
> 
> Also, given what you said about privacy issues, I broadened my location to cover a few more states and try when posting pictures to blur faces and not to give any identifying background, although a very dedicated searcher would probably be able to find me, as llamas are not all that common against terraced hillsides! Awful that we have to worry about such things, but as will eventually come up on my own Member Journal, I learned at age 14 there are lots of perverts out there when selling a little Shetland stallion, so do not have a FB page and am very leery about this whole internet tell-everything culture.



At this point the limitation is really *me* and my ability to safely manage things rather than objective lack of access to a horse. There's a nice-looking stable around here that does what they call 'quarter leases' - basically 4 hours of riding time a week in 2 planned 2-hour chunks - designed to facilitate exactly the sort of practice I am hoping for. The problem is that I am not yet at a point where I would be confident:



Going out into a herd-pasture environment and catching a horse
Fully grooming/inspecting/tacking up that horse smoothly (especially if this involves anything even slightly off routine or I notice something about the horse and am not sure if it's OK or how to manage it).
Handling anything that comes up while riding which is unexpected - spooks, the horse deciding that it feels like cantering, misbehavior of any sort...

I realize my concerns for #3 might be over-large in my mind because my mental image of a horse is currently probably a bit biased towards forward and reactive. Ironically I wouldn't want to lease anything quite as exciting as my lesson horse - but I also feel a responsibility to be prepared for at least a _little_ of the unexpected no matter how 'bomb proof' a horse I find to lease. 

So for now I just need to get the basic skills so that I can be the safe solo-rider I'd need to in order to partial-lease something...


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## Prairie

Is it possible to rent one of the horses where you're taking lessons for an hour or 2? Way back when I was first taking lessons, our instructors encouraged us to come out and ride just for practice---they were around the barn and arena to keep an eye on us, but didn't interfere with what we were doing unless it was a matter of safety or being too rough on a horse. It also helps you progress to ride different horses since every horse's gaits, mannerisms, response, etc are different so perhaps they had one who is quieter than the one you're riding in lessons.


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## Cammey

Prairie said:


> Is it possible to rent one of the horses where you're taking lessons for an hour or 2? Way back when I was first taking lessons, our instructors encouraged us to come out and ride just for practice---they were around the barn and arena to keep an eye on us, but didn't interfere with what we were doing unless it was a matter of safety or being too rough on a horse. It also helps you progress to ride different horses since every horse's gaits, mannerisms, response, etc are different so perhaps they had one who is quieter than the one you're riding in lessons.


I would love to and will probably ask - but I get the distinct impression that the horse I am on is one of the calmest and oldest ones available there. No, seriously: most of the stable is filled with either performance horses (mostly OTTBs with a few thoroughbred crosses), OTTBs recently off the track and being re-trained as performance horses, or very young horses - many of whom are very green and some of whom aren't yet saddle-broke. Having met some of the crew (and seen even more of it in show-pictures with descriptions) I legit believe I'm on Dragon because she _is_ the beginner lesson horse there (possibly barring a couple ponies). 

While I haven't quite heard it laid out, I'm getting the impression that the model works like this:

1. Buy/rescue horse (lots of OTTBs direct from race trainers)
2. Heal up & re-train horse in the show discipline that best suits it to a basic degree
3. Let students (starting from most experienced students and working down the experience scale) have equestrian sport lessons on horse (hunter/jumper mostly, some eventing schooling)
4. Make sure horse is ridden by lots of different riders and riders get to ride lots of different horses
5. Let students compete with horses at shows, drive them there as a team, win ribbons on horses to add to horse-resume
6. Sell horse - now with proven show-history, time as a lesson horse, and a fair bit of experience - mostly to equestrian sport competitors (sometimes to students)
7. Use money from sale to buy/rescue more horses
8. Put the now even-more-experienced students on even fresher horses, find lower-level students to be the end of the chain (though usually not as low level as me) 

... I'll be honest, I like this chain. I want into this chain. I'm really looking forward to this being me someday. She holds schooling lessons for groups and I want to join them.

Heck, I may be one of those people who buys a lesson horse... because I can think of no better way to buy my first horse then to get to watch it get a bunch of training, ride it a whole bunch in lessons, compete on it in a show, and THEN buy it - especially since I seem drawn to something a bit less typical for a beginner (this way I would know exactly what I was getting into riding-wise). 

But I think I may need to bootstrap this process a little to get to the skill level where I can solo-ride one of these guys and not be badly out-horsed. I'm determined to get there, but I'm also not delusional about the fact that's going to take a while - possibly a long while.


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## Prairie

They sure have an excellent program that benefits many horses and eventually riders! If Dragon is the calmest and best for your level, if they are willing to let you ride her for experience not in a lesson, that's a good indication that they feel you have the skills to handle her. It doesn't hurt to ask.


I definitely agree that riding different horses is one of the best ways to improve your equine skills. The hunter/jumper barn I started at had a rule that you could not ride the same horse 2 lessons in a row so we learned how to adjust our riding to the individual horse. It has proved to be a valuable lesson even 50+ years later!


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## Whinnie

Just curious, how many books/articles have you been published in? And I have a question------I have the same paddock boots, but there is no "notch in the sole" for the stirrups. I have seen and tried on a lot of boots and have never seen soles with stirrup notches, it would actually seem unsafe to me, but I may just be out of the loop.


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## tinyliny

Cammey,

as soon as you can, take some video of yourself riding. this will , one day, be an invaluable asset. you will see for yourself how far you have come. I wish, wish, wish I had done this, but when I started riding, at age 41 in 1999, it wasn't as easy as just filming with a cell phone.


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## Cammey

Prairie said:


> They sure have an excellent program that benefits many horses and eventually riders! If Dragon is the calmest and best for your level, if they are willing to let you ride her for experience not in a lesson, that's a good indication that they feel you have the skills to handle her. It doesn't hurt to ask.
> 
> I definitely agree that riding different horses is one of the best ways to improve your equine skills. The hunter/jumper barn I started at had a rule that you could not ride the same horse 2 lessons in a row so we learned how to adjust our riding to the individual horse. It has proved to be a valuable lesson even 50+ years later!


I will probably ask. I’m a little socially nervous to if that makes any sense? But I will see if there’s a way I can ask more generally (‘how would I go about getting more experience between lessons’) and see if the proposal comes forth. 

… Yeah, I’ll be honest, I love the idea of trying more horses. I am even considering seeing if I can do just a plain-old structured trail ride during this ‘off’ weekend to see if I can find some time to try out what will probably be nearer to the opposite end of the horse spectrum. This is especially true after getting so much feedback regarding broadening my horizons on horses. Mind you, a lot of these horses I think were kind of selected to have similar attributes - but they're still all individuals and I really look forward to learning about that. 






Whinnie said:


> Just curious, how many books/articles have you been published in? And I have a question------I have the same paddock boots, but there is no "notch in the sole" for the stirrups. I have seen and tried on a lot of boots and have never seen soles with stirrup notches, it would actually seem unsafe to me, but I may just be out of the loop.



I'm kind of curious about the source of the question - thank you for the compliment I think?

As to the answer: none in anything related to horses or athletics. I have one article and one bit of poetry which were published in anthologies years ago, and have written a smattering of articles. None of this was professional (paid for) work. I've also written a couple full-length texts (non-fiction) but none have ever been published and none ever will - because I don't have time to promote a book, do book tours, and all the other things you have to actually do to write professionally. Most authors I know make more money off of speaker fees or books they sell themselves at signings rather than actual royalties. It's a hard world and you have to have a real passion for it. I don't. 


My boyfriend/live in partner of 6 years on the other hand _is_ a professional freelance writer (I mentioned I'm the breadwinner...). I also have friends who are seriously in the industry, which is how I usually get talked into doing articles/presentations and how I got talked into putting a work into an anthology. I've also done a little bit of reviewing/editing in that sort of pre-professional sphere where you get your name mentioned as a 'thank you for being a reviewer' section at the beginning of a book but don't actually get paid anything.

So I'd consider myself someone who hangs around writers but really isn't one. It's something I enjoy, but you're not going to find my name listed in Borders or on Amazon. 

As to the paddock boots:










They look like notches to me - though hardly deep ones. I can feel when they sit against the edge of the stirrups, which is nice, but they’re pretty shallow so I doubt they'd count as a safety hazard (hopefully?).




tinyliny said:


> Cammey,
> 
> as soon as you can, take some video of yourself riding. this will , one day, be an invaluable asset. you will see for yourself how far you have come. I wish, wish, wish I had done this, but when I started riding, at age 41 in 1999, it wasn't as easy as just filming with a cell phone.



That is a brilliant idea which I am not sure how I will implement, but I really want to. 

I wonder if my trainer would be utterly opposed to doing this for me so I can review it. Unfortunately I do not think I am going to find anyone willing to wake up with me at coffee o’clock - but I will ask Jill if she’d mind or if she’d be willing to take a bit of cellphone camera footage. Heck, it may help me see what the heck I was doing wrong with getting ‘behind the horse’.


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## NavigatorsMom

Those notches just look like extra grip, I don't think you could get caught up in the stirrups with those.

I have had trainers record for me during lessons, usually just for a clip here or there (over a jump/grid or doing a specific exercise), just ask and see if she's open to the idea. If you preface it with the thought that you want to learn how to self evaluate and acquire a collection of videos of yourself to see progress, I think she'd be happy to.


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## egrogan

Yep, agreed, I think most trainers don't mind taking short cell phone clips for their students. Some people here have ingenious set-ups where they're able to stabilize their camera on a fence/wall to capture most of their ride, but I'm not able to make that happen!


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## Whinnie

I had imagined the "notches" as a cut out for the stirrup iron to seat against. Those are like grip treads. Thanks for the clarity.


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## LlamaPacker

Let's see. I read a bunch more posts, but still not nearly through. Was really concerned to hear of you being in the pasture with all those horses and a handful of carrots. Thought maybe I'm over-reacting, since I'm older, tend to have seen more bad things happen, but then read posts by others also showing concern so feel mine is validated.

First thought, well, that owner knows she's going out to get the lead mare and therefore, in a safe spot. Maybe that was the case, but then read that other people go out that same way to get their horses, so then maybe not you in danger, but others are, as all can't be getting the lead mare in a herd. People going out to get their horses need to know at the very least how to have respect of those horses coming near them; need to have their rope and halter ready, need not to be giving any reason for others to think they should expect treats.

As said, I'm older, being more cautious, as have caused plenty of accidents, been too impulsive, too careless. After the incidents with allowing kids to almost get hurt on my little molly mule, realized had to be a lot more careful. Have been responsible in past for animals getting killed, carelessness or ignorance, but am going to do my best not to get a child or myself killed with this new equine past-time. So went to library and checked out a book that you might want to read. It's called TEACHING SAFE HORSEMANSHIP, by Jan Dawson, President of the American Assoc. for Horsemanship Safety.

It's meant for instructors to read and riding stables, so very heavily emphasizes how eager people are to file lawsuits and how any lack of due diligence by stable owners can very easily get them into trouble. If you want to be sure your trainer stays in business so can teach you and keep these fabulous horses she seems to have, might want to introduce her to some of the things in this book, as after reading this book, she looks like a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Then for yourself, first thing the book says is instructor needs to be sure you understand the dangers of being around horses; to explain to each student the nature of a horse as a prey animal. Can see why with a new student she doesn't want to scare you off, but certainly, she could find a way to introduce her students to horse and herd behavior. Most importantly, she could be sure they are not out there with treats and no knowledge of what behaviors to watch for or positions to be careful of.

Because my first equine was a mule, behaviors of which I knew nothing and made no assumptions, I read many books and watched many videos to find out how to get the mule to understand I was the lead mare. As the saying goes, mules MUST be handled like horses SHOULD be handled, but horses are much more forgiving. I'm lucky to have a well-trained, friendly molly mule, but I try to be sure myself and the kids are always careful now when around either mule or little horse.

It's clear to me that your instructor right away could see that you are athletic, that you have very good balance, and she probably did not need to go as slowly with you as with some people. In fact, she may have wanted you to start having a good time and a thrilling time immediately so that you would either be sure to continue or immediately realize this was not going to be for you. In either case, I think if you read this book, you will see that she is probably putting you into somewhat dangerous situations given your lack of experience. 

Many people here have said that you need to have patience, it won't always be exciting, and if done according to this book, which does talk about lunge line at trot and canter until sure people have balance, for you it would probably be pretty dull, but at least you might realize there was a reason for taking more time and learning safer habits. I particularly enjoyed the post #19 by KountryPrincess in a Sticky under Forum Keeping & Caring for Horses, New to Horses, called Thinking of Getting Your Own Horse, which is mostly about what and how to learn riding before you actually get your horse. It has helped me know what I need to do to help the kids best learn to ride my little horse and I wish I had known about this thread before purchasing, but, luckily, seem to have done alright with advice from responses on the less populated forum I used to belong to. I'm grateful to those people who helped me.

As always, the posts get away from me and become very long, but I've loved reading your journal, your excitement about this new sport and want you to stay safe and in love with riding and all it can offer. (Another thing the book mentions as first thing to train student is quick, emergency dismount, which I had my neighbor kids practicing again today. Very valuable, as one of the near-fatal accidents I caused was when the little mule got agitated, I said to the athletic little 10-year old boy, "slide off, slide off", had explained to him how to bring foot up over butt quickly, but we hadn't practiced, so in the excitement of the moment, he slid off head first, luckily doing a belly flop and not badly hurt, but so close to a life-changing accident.)


----------



## Cammey

General response to *@NavigatorsMom*, *@egrogan*, and *@Whinnie* who made similar comments:


I’ll ask about the recording. People are probably right that she’ll be fine with it (not sure if she’ll do it for me during lessons or not, but we’ll see). Heck, it’s not like there aren’t lots and lots of pictures of the horses, people schooling (mostly jumping), competitions, etc. all over the site and facebook (mostly facebook), and I know she does some video of the horses as well. I just feel weird interrupting our lesson time - but I’ll ask. 


As to notches: yeah, wasn’t quite sure what to call them. The thing is that as small as they are, I can feel when the stirrup slides up to them and it’s been helping me figure out exactly where I want my feet.




LlamaPacker said:


> It's called TEACHING SAFE HORSEMANSHIP, by Jan Dawson, President of the American Assoc. for Horsemanship Safety.
> 
> 
> It's meant for instructors to read and riding stables, so very heavily emphasizes how eager people are to file lawsuits and how any lack of due diligence by stable owners can very easily get them into trouble. If you want to be sure your trainer stays in business so can teach you and keep these fabulous horses she seems to have, might want to introduce her to some of the things in this book, as after reading this book, she looks like a lawsuit waiting to happen.



I’ll add it to my wishlist (as I have quite a pile I am reading right now), but to be honest I am not going to be presumptuous enough to read a book and start suggesting to my instructor how she should run things in a general sense or advise on things I am not an expert on. I may ask her to swap up a lesson plan _for me_ to meet a specific need of mine (as a much rawer beginner than she usually tries to train) but presuming to wade into liability law… I know just enough to understand just how little I know of her situation. I’ll leave those discussions to be between she and her insurance firm. 


As to my own safety (something of more concern to me personally) - I’m a little torn. I do actively want to develop the skills required to catch from the herd. This stable requires it for their normal operations - as does the one I am looking at possibly leasing from. The real question is how much instruction to get from where I am currently to there, and how to minimize risk in that instruction. I’m not sure how much better of an approach there is to going out there supervised - perhaps an intermediate step of going out there and watching her do it… but to be honest I’m not sure from a risk-perspective that would have really been any better for _her_ to be the one distracted trying to halter the horse while I was standing in the herd watching her, rather than me being the one slightly distracted haltering the horse and her being able to look over the whole situation and react to things… it’s all arguable. 


Overall though, it’s a skill I both need and want to develop.




LlamaPacker said:


> Many people here have said that you need to have patience, it won't always be exciting, and if done according to this book, which does talk about lunge line at trot and canter until sure people have balance, for you it would probably be pretty dull, but at least you might realize there was a reason for taking more time and learning safer habits.



It’s interesting that this is the feedback I keep getting on the forum because it’s quite different from the feedback I usually get in person. I actually really don’t mind time spent perfecting things - I can and will happily practice a skill or activity until I feel it’s _just right_ and more often than not my over-emphasis on being a perfectionist is where I have tended to garner some criticism - especially in the early stages of learning something. I’ve actually worked pretty hard over the years to accept that I will make little mistakes, not get frustrated with myself, and move forward rather than trying to go over the same things again and again until I’m satisfied with them. 


I’d be happy running around a lunge line for an entire lesson ironing out what every little muscle should be doing - it's kind of my comfort zone. Though admittedly, one of the things I like about this instructor is that she’s constantly pushing me past that and not letting me become too fixated on anything before I’ve got something else to deal with. Part of me wants to sit there and nitpick, but by that point I’m already off being challenged in a different way that requires my full attention. 


The only impatience I’ve had thus far with any of this is my lack of ability to practice. I understand that right now I just don’t have the requisite skills and knowledge to do so safely on my own, but I feel almost a sense of (I know misplaced) guilt - like I am not doing any homework between lessons. Whenever I’ve had private lessons in anything previously I have always been studious in ensuring that my time in lessons is for getting corrections on my work and being taught new things - as a way of showing the instructor that I value and appreciate their time, and that I am serious about learning the things I am being taught. Obviously, the situation I’m in now doesn’t allow for it - but that feeling lingers.


----------



## Cammey

*Interlude - A Trail Ride*

Since I was unable to attend lessons this weekend I decided instead to experiment with a completely different equestrian endeavor. I wanted to get a little breadth to my riding experience and try out being on a different horse. I also wanted something fun I could do socially. So I went and got myself, my boyfriend, and a friend of mine (my prior climbing partner actually) out for a woodland trail ride.

This ride was advertised as being entirely suitable for beginners. We were asked height, weight, and level of riding experience (I said baby-beginner just starting English lessons). Helmets were technically optional for everyone over 18 - though provided for free and recommended (I brought mine). 

We went in, signed paperwork, were offered helmets, and had horses selected for us. I was hooked up with Glimmer, who I’d guess was about 15hh and a deep chestnut brown. She was wearing western tack (including, to be honest, a bit that scared me a little - not sure exactly what it was, but it was about 3-4” of leverage and each side wiggled around independently.. So tom thumb maybe?). I was given a few minutes to go over and make introductions. 

We mounted up and then were milling around a little bit. The way my horse was situated this actually required me to back up a few steps to get us out between a barrel and another horse. So we very gently went through the backing process (which went basically one step at a time but that was just fine with me - I really, really did not want to put anything but the lightest pressure on that bit) and I worked to get her walking.

She turned fine, but when I cued her to walk forward (with a completely hanging rein) and she… well just didn’t. So I cued harder… and harder… and eventually ended up giving her a fairly solid *kick* to get her moving even a few steps forward - at which point she stopped. I had to kick her pretty solidly again to get a few more steps… and finally got her into her position in the line.

Understand, if I ever _kicked_ Dragon like that I suspect I would find us either through or over a fence… or more likely her over a fence and me left on top of it. The difference in ‘volume’ required for the forward movement was night and day. With Dragon, even at her most hesitant (which I think was the very beginning of last lesson) the ‘cues’ really are that - cues. I _did_ have to actually go from touching to bumping/kicking slightly to get her up into a faster walk at the very start of last lesson - but it was much more ‘hey, wake up - it’s lesson time’ as opposed to seriously trying to motivate the horse through being kicked. 

Glimmer was not going to move forward for anything less than coercion - and to be honest I found that somewhat frustrating. The concept of ‘spurs’, which had always seemed honestly more than a little cruel to me, suddenly made far more sense. 

Once we got into the lineup and started moving things went a fair bit better. It was clear these horses were well trained to play follow-the-leader, and while Glimmer didn’t seem thrilled to be there for the most part she continued to plod forward with steady familiarity, even managing to get her spacing with the horse in front of us somewhat reasonable.

The first half of the ride was going along well - the scenery was pretty, though to be honest I’m a little spoiled on pretty woodland scenery. I could try giving instructions to the horse - but why pick on a horse that clearly is doing exactly the right thing? So to be honest I found myself a tiny bit bored - not about to fully let myself get distracted by the scenery while on horseback, but at the same time not finding the riding itself that interesting.

I started using the time to really focus on the details of my seat - trying to balance my torso, keep my heels down with my legs completely relaxed, and let the horse move my hips ‘out of the way’ of the saddle movement while my torso remained motionless and comfortably navigating the hills and mud - feeling each muscle move as I did so. Occasionally I would ask the horse to slow down to let someone else get through a tricky section first before we started on it, or to avoid getting a rider behind us stuck somewhere awkward as we went up/down a little hill. There actually were a handful of sections with bad footing or somewhat notable up/down climbs - and lots and lots of mud, which seems to be an endemic generally in this area right now. 

That lasted about halfway through the ride - then we all heard a large ‘crack’ that sounded distinctly like a tree-branch ripping off and coming down. Most of the other horses seemed not to notice/care. Glimmer froze up and gave sort of a panicked look around and honestly I felt my own little spike of adrenaline - not from the branch, but from her obvious looking for an exit.

The trail we were on at that point was narrow enough I had to carefully watch my knees due to trees and brush on both sides, and had us penned in behind one large horse and in front of another - any path she tried to take other than dead-forward was going to be an ugly, ugly ride. She was tense as a brick and had pinned her ears. 

I waited a moment and touched the reins lightly, not even really trying to instruct her - but more to remind her I was there. Then I asked her - far more gently than before - to keep walking. 

For the next ten minutes or so she was constantly trying to get up nose-to-tail for the horse in front of us, and when the path widened out to potentially allow for two horses I had to halt her to keep her from trying to pass. Every time I touched the reins (and I do mean touched - the weight of the reins themselves was all the pressure I was putting on that bit) to try to slow her she would start to throw her head - though she would halt. As far as I could tell she was completely oblivious to seat cues or any leg cues that didn’t involve kicking. Things that hadn’t really bothered her before - like the squeaking of other rider’s tack, and branches being stepped on up ahead - suddenly merited an upright ear and a concerned look. 

I did discover that, unlike Dragon who I don’t usually use much in the way of verbal cues with, she seemed to like being verbally told what to do (‘woah’ worked better than either the reins or the seat to get her to slow down). Once I started talking she would keep an ear back to me, and seemed to calm down just in general. After I discovered this we were able to enjoy a much more sedate trip back. 

By the time we got back to the barn she had both stopped rushing and even listened to me when I told her to walk using more sensibly-volumed cues, It was also sort of nice to have a horse that genuinely would just stand still. Though in an act of hilarity, I decided not to wait for the mounting block to dismount (it seemed about half of everyone was doing this) and when I went to dismount _then_ she decided to walk on unbidden. This was fine and I dismounted easily - but sort of funny to me as mounting/dismounting are about the only time Dragon will actually stand still for me while I’m on her back. 

Honestly, besides feeling a some concern for my jumpy horse, I actually enjoyed this second part of the ride more than the first, because in it I learned more about the horse and had a bit more to pay attention to riding. The first part was mostly plodding along on a track. We couldn’t really talk due to the single-line nature of the trail and the social convention of the ride (most people were silently relaxing). We couldn’t stop to really look at anything because that would hold things up, and a large part of my field of vision when paying attention to the trail was filled with the rear-end of my boyfriend’s taller horse. It wasn’t quite relaxing because I was still on an unfamiliar horse and wasn’t about to let myself get totally lost in thought. 

I also have disproven the theory that I will love every horse I ride. I don’t think anything was wrong with Glimmer - but the degree to which she seemed deadened by the type of work she had been doing was almost a little depressing. The degree to which I really had to kick her left me feeling a touch guilty. At no point did I get the sense she was really enjoying herself.

More generally, in the right context I think I might enjoy trail riding, but it would need to be a situation where I was riding a horse I really enjoyed and controlling the tempo of the ride a bit more so I could actually enjoy the scenery. This may be something to try again once I am leasing a horse (though for safety reasons I’d want to find someone else leasing a horse so we could ride out together). There is also another place that advertises ‘intermediate to advanced’ trail rides - which I obviously don’t qualify for - but which I think might be worth looking at once I do just to give the experience another shot.

So in summary, I’m glad I did this. I feel I learned a bit - but I probably won’t be trying it again any time soon.


----------



## Avna

Now you know why many trained riders actively avoid getting on a dude string horse. I'm always amazed and appalled watching people on hired horses. Their toes point down, their shoulders are slumped, and they act like they are sitting on a conveyer belt through the landscape. I never rode like that, not ever not once, even as a small child. I can't imagine riding like that. Poor horses. Pack horses have it better.

Trail riding on on a trail-savvy well-trained horse is a whole different experience. To me it is the best kind of riding -- you are both looking, appraising, deciding, enjoying, together, almost like one being. Arena riding is constantly micro-adjusting your horse and yourself; you are the brain. Trail riding is much more about trusting your horse and letting them be a nearly equal partner in the endeavor. 

You can't get that from a deadened trail-slave horse.


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## Cammey

Avna said:


> Now you know why many trained riders actively avoid getting on a dude string horse. I'm always amazed and appalled watching people on hired horses. Their toes point down, their shoulders are slumped, and they act like they are sitting on a conveyer belt through the landscape. I never rode like that, not ever not once, even as a small child. I can't imagine riding like that. Poor horses. Pack horses have it better.
> 
> Trail riding on on a trail-savvy well-trained horse is a whole different experience. To me it is the best kind of riding -- you are both looking, appraising, deciding, enjoying, together, almost like one being. Arena riding is constantly micro-adjusting your horse and yourself; you are the brain. Trail riding is much more about trusting your horse and letting them be a nearly equal partner in the endeavor.
> 
> You can't get that from a deadened trail-slave horse.


Yeah, that was basically my experience. I get that you need *well* broke horses for anything that involves new riders + trails... but your assessment of 'deadened trail-slave' kind of described my experience - especially pre-spook. The ironic thing was that at least the horse I was put on I wouldn't even describe as terribly calm or 'bombproof' based on her reaction to that tree limb - just very used to ignoring her rider.

Your description of trail riding honestly sounds more like what I am hoping for. I'm actually pretty comfortable (possibly overly so) with the idea of going along with most ideas a horse might have so long as they're safe for both of us. The idea of that sort of open partnership is _very_ appealing to me right now. 

Ah well, it's good to get diversity of experience for now as I work towards trying to hit that baseline of competency to get into some of these more interesting areas. I'm glad I did it once.


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## greentree

I don't know what state you are in, but if you are ever close to Bourbon Country, feel free to let me know, and I will take you on a real trail, on a real horse!


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## Cammey

greentree said:


> I don't know what state you are in, but if you are ever close to Bourbon Country, feel free to let me know, and I will take you on a real trail, on a real horse!


I am *incredibly* flattered and would love to if any opportunity arises. I actually live in the Great Lakes area, though I travel _a lot_ (I'm writing this from a hotel in St. Louis at the moment) so it's not impossible - just depends where my clients happen to be based at the moment. 

Really, I'm just wishing I had access to some equestrian friends I could spend time with.


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## Avna

Cammey said:


> I am *incredibly* flattered and would love to if any opportunity arises. I actually live in the Great Lakes area, though I travel _a lot_ (I'm writing this from a hotel in St. Louis at the moment) so it's not impossible - just depends where my clients happen to be based at the moment.
> 
> Really, I'm just wishing I had access to some equestrian friends I could spend time with.


For me, the best way to meet other riders has been to 1. join a local trail riding club (for which you do need either a horse or a friend with an extra one), and 2. taking lessons at a barn where the focus is on general riding skills, not just competition in a sport. 

I always make friends quite slowly and one at a time, I've learned to be patient.


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## greentree

Well, I am a few hours from St. Louis, but only and hour and a half from Louisville, and an hour from Nashville. Seriously, PM me if you get close!


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## Cammey

Avna said:


> For me, the best way to meet other riders has been to 1. join a local trail riding club (for which you do need either a horse or a friend with an extra one), and 2. taking lessons at a barn where the focus is on general riding skills, not just competition in a sport.
> 
> I always make friends quite slowly and one at a time, I've learned to be patient.


Yeah, the club route is one I've looked at - though not trail riding specifically, but in other equestrian areas. The challenge I've found is that most seem to have a reasonable minimum individual competence bar I am not yet ready to pass. There are a lot of activities I believe will open up once I am at a skill level to be a solid independent solo rider. 

There's a local polo club (no clue if I'll like polo, but seems worth trying out). There's a fairly serious hunt club which looks fascinating but probably has the highest bar-for-entry skill-wise of anything I've looked at thus far - I suspect I am years away. The place I'm training at has a team and does group schooling made up of both teens and adults. There are also just a tremendous number of shows of all sorts. 

Ironically, I haven't found much in the way of trail riding groups. There's one organization that does multi-day camping trip rides but that seems quite specialized and not a direction that calls to me. Everything else I've found is for the under-18 set. 

While I might have more opportunity to meet people at a more social stable that's not a trade off I'm willing to make. Despite the bit of controversy on here the more time I have spent thinking on things the more I realize I feel my trainer is a good fit for me at this point in time to reach my goals - and that takes priority. 

And perhaps 'friends' is too restrictive a term - perhaps more activity partners who I can share and enjoy this particular aspect of my life with. I adore the idea of developing more deep bonds of course - but I absolutely agree with you that such things take a great deal more time. Also, there's absolutely no indication that a shared interest in horses implies that someone would get along with my other hundred or so other quirks. 



greentree said:


> Well, I am a few hours from St. Louis, but only and hour and a half from Louisville, and an hour from Nashville. Seriously, PM me if you get close!


Absolutely will do! 

_*Sneaks off to check her company's active client/project list... no reason*_


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## Whinnie

Wow, I'm glad that in my area you can join a club as a beginner with interest whether one has a horse or not. Or are a skilled rider or not. I have never heard of entry requirements to merely join a club. Sounds like these clubs where you live are too pretentious for my taste.


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## Rain Shadow

If you are ever in Florida, come riding with me. Harley and Trixie will take care of their newbs and Kenzie and I will show you a real trail ride.


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## Prairie

I'm also surprised that the equine organizations have restrictions on your riding level since any that I've belonged to have welcomed newbies. If we have a newbie join our trail riding club, we both choose a trail that even the newest horse and/or ride can easily complete when they show up, and also those on calm, friendly horses surround the newbies so their horses will gain confidence from ours and we can talk the rider through any problems. Many Polo club offer lessons on trained horses---I have a friends who is pushing me to join her since she's taken a couple of series and claims it's really fun. Hunt clubs are always looking for ground help if you aren't up to riding----there's also the option of hill topping when you are comfortable riding in the open which does not involve any jumping or being in the thick of the hunt itself.


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## tinyliny

in this regard, Facebook is your friend. you can find all kinds of groups there. 

our saddle club is always happy to welcome new members. however, we don't have horses for rent or sharing


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## Cammey

Whinnie said:


> Wow, I'm glad that in my area you can join a club as a beginner with interest whether one has a horse or not. Or are a skilled rider or not. I have never heard of entry requirements to merely join a club. Sounds like these clubs where you live are too pretentious for my taste.



There may be beginner stuff that just isn’t visible online and thus I’m missing it. Or it might be (and does kinda seem to be) that there are a tremendous number of lessons, activities, and clubs aimed at kids and then it’s sort of assumed that by the time you’re an adult you already have some clue what you’re doing. As to if my area is pretentious… no good context to judge by to be honest. I’m literally going by websites for things in the area right now. 




Rain Shadow said:


> If you are ever in Florida, come riding with me. Harley and Trixie will take care of their newbs and Kenzie and I will show you a real trail ride.



I would absolutely love to . Thank you very, very much for the offer.




Prairie said:


> I'm also surprised that the equine organizations have restrictions on your riding level since any that I've belonged to have welcomed newbies. If we have a newbie join our trail riding club, we both choose a trail that even the newest horse and/or ride can easily complete when they show up, and also those on calm, friendly horses surround the newbies so their horses will gain confidence from ours and we can talk the rider through any problems. Many Polo club offer lessons on trained horses---I have a friends who is pushing me to join her since she's taken a couple of series and claims it's really fun. Hunt clubs are always looking for ground help if you aren't up to riding----there's also the option of hill topping when you are comfortable riding in the open which does not involve any jumping or being in the thick of the hunt itself.



Just to clarify with a bit more detail: the Polo club has social memberships available - but I’d feel quite strange paying several hundred dollars just to go hang out somewhere that I don’t know anyone and stalk a social group that I have no real connection to. I may try to attend their public matches, but I missed the last one for the season. They also have classes available for anyone which I might eventually look at - but their small group lessons cost literally more than twice what I’m paying per-hour for my private lessons right now, and their private rates for a single weekly lesson would literally cover a *full* lease on a showable horse at the place I was looking at leasing a horse from (farrier, de-worm and vet excluded… but still). It’s a tradeoff I’m not quite ready to make for an activity where I’d then still need to spend months and months working on riding basics. So, to be fair, this one is a bit self-imposed - I just don’t want to spend polo-lesson rates for the most basic ‘how to stay on the horse’ stuff which I am under the impression will be foundational to playing the game. 

Now, this group does periodically offer short clinics/introduction days which I am seriously thinking of dropping in for, but the last one was September and I’d be surprised if they have any more before the Spring (and I am watching to see if they have some in spring). Overall this is something I really do want to try out - but I don’t know if committing to lessons is reasonable given where I’m at right now. I’m open to the idea I might be wrong here. 

The years comment though was mostly in reference to actually riding a fox hunt and trying to do things with that group. The lowest-level activity they appear to offer is their trail riding which requests the horse/rider combo be able to “Trot and canter safely in a group setting outside of the ring” in order to attend. This is billed as a good way to get up the skills required for actually participating in a fox hunt. I am not sure when the ability to do that will be a reasonable expectation for me, but I do know I’m not there yet (to leave aside the part about not having a horse). If I’m incredibly optimistic I suppose I might hit that bar next spring/summer in time to join their season… but I am trying not to get too presumptuous in those regards.

I hadn’t considered (nor heard of) hill topping as an option. And it’s also true: they do offer purely social memberships and ‘supporting’ memberships - but again it seems quite strange to me to just hang out and stalk them when I don’t know anyone and can’t really participate in the bulk of their activities. They do ask their members to take part in trail-trimming and the like and I can’t see a reason they’d refuse additional help… but isn’t it little weird to just show up and trim people’s riding trails with no other context or connection? Am I weird for thinking that’d be kind of weird? (Genuine question - I might be misunderstanding the social norms). 

So some of my hesitancy here is admittedly of my own making - in both cases because I don’t feel I could really participate at this point in the core activities of each group. Polo is definitely the lower entry-bar between the two since they DO offer beginner lessons to get started... Fox Hunting I honestly don’t consider realistic until I can at the very least justify going to the rides they use for skill-development. I could probably hang around their club-house, but that seems almost a little silly if I'm not at all actually involved with things. 

Your trail-riding group sounds incredibly awesome and welcoming. So far I haven’t had luck finding anything that looks quite so beginner-friendly yet. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist - just that my searching hasn’t yet found it. 



tinyliny said:


> in this regard, Facebook is your friend. you can find all kinds of groups there.
> 
> 
> our saddle club is always happy to welcome new members. however, we don't have horses for rent or sharing



Facebook! I admittedly hadn’t really thought to try there. I’ve mostly been google-searching for sites. I will start digging around in that avenue. Thank you for the tip/idea!

Yeah, being horseless is another limitation I’m just going to have for a while. Even assuming I do some sort of leasing a horse to practice with I currently possess neither a trailer nor a vehicle capable of pulling a trailer - both of which I assume I’d need to bring said horse to events. As I believe you yourself have mentioned, the only real response to that one for now is patience.


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## gottatrot

I'd say having a social group with horses can be very difficult. There are so many sub-cultures in the horse world. Most barns I've boarded at did not have people who identified with me or my riding. 

There are a lot of people who only want to ride in an arena, often preferring to do it alone. I've tried many times to get these types to come out for a ride, promising that I will walk slowly, avoid anything they find overwhelming, get off and lead their horse if necessary, ride their horse through rough patches, etc. It rarely has convinced them to head out into the outdoors. 

There are those who only are interested in people who compete in the discipline they like. I was at a gaming barn for awhile, and if you didn't barrel race on a quarter horse, they didn't care to be around you or talk to you. 

Sadly, many people are also ashamed of their riding level and don't want to go out unless they're with others with similar skills. For me, it's enjoyable to go out and have a gentle ride, and it's good for horses to have those rides mixed in with more challenging ones. No one should be embarrassed about bouncing around or losing a stirrup because we all began that way. 

But I can understand the sentiment. If I were to go rock climbing with an experienced climber, I would feel I was holding them back and annoying them just because they were so good at it.

Riding is easier than some sports or hobbies to just show up and do, so it's mainly a matter of coordinating schedules with people. You don't have to haul a kayak to some river or have perfect weather or set aside a huge chunk of time. 

It would be nice if you could find someone who wanted help getting their 2nd, trained horse exercised and wouldn't mind teaching you. I've had several riders be my exercise rider and have given lessons to some in exchange for coming out with me once a week. Endurance riders are famous for having a back up horse and not having time to condition both. Yet they want someone to help keep the extra horse fit in case their #1 horse has an issue. It only took about a month's worth of lessons for me to get a high school girl out of the arena and conditioning horses on the trails with me. 

I'd say it can be helpful to find the really passionate horse people (such as many who are on this forum). These are the types that don't think you need a reason to be just hanging around where horses are, and think it is natural to want to get on and ride. Most of us have had periods where we didn't have our own ride and sympathize with how difficult it can be to get regular riding in.

To me, the best horse people are those who want to think and breathe horses (especially when at the barn) and rarely consider...there are other subjects to talk about?

My experience was that I enjoyed lessons immensely when I couldn't have a horse. But as soon as it was possible for me to own one, lessons were extremely frustrating. I didn't want to go home afterward. An hour was too short, and over too soon. I wanted freedom. My cousin let me go out and ride her second horse whenever I wanted, and that was better....except spending time with him made me want my own horse even more. It was less than six months of this before I bought my own horse. With my own horse, I enjoyed lessons much more.


----------



## phantomhorse13

Cammey said:


> They do ask their members to take part in trail-trimming and the like and I can’t see a reason they’d refuse additional help… but isn’t it little weird to just show up and trim people’s riding trails with no other context or connection?


I would LOVE if you randomly showed up some time I was trimming trail!! Finding people willing to do the work of trail maintenance and not just take advantage of the using the trails someone else cleared is hard (though maybe hunts are required to do such things as part of membership?).

However, I know there can be a lot of etiquette around hunting, so can't say for sure what kind of reception you would get. But someone willing to work for free sure seems like a no-brainer and it might allow you to make some good connections, especially if you are outgoing enough to explain to the people you meet that you are a new rider looking for more learning opportunities.

I can understand not wanting to spend a bunch of money for memberships at this stage, as I am sure you are not dealing with unlimited funds. Do you have any horse rescues or therapeutic riding centers in your area? Those places are always looking for volunteers and its often a way to get some great hands-on learning in exchange for some work.


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## Prairie

When you feel you are able to ride comfortably in the open at all gaits, perhaps consider joining one the groups that interests you. Also, many of us with trailers are willing to give rides to others who don't have a trailer. Even when my 3 friends and I get together for our monthly ride (we've known each other for ages), we only take one trailer to save on gas, taking turns about whose trailer we use.


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## Cammey

gottatrot said:


> I'd say having a social group with horses can be very difficult. There are so many sub-cultures in the horse world. Most barns I've boarded at did not have people who identified with me or my riding.


This makes a lot of sense to me. The gamer/geek community which I count myself part of is often the same way - lots of people grouped under one umbrella and sharing a lot of superficial similarities to outsiders, but honestly very interested in their own worlds once you get into the details. There isn’t even necessarily anything wrong with that per-say, but it’s good to know what I’m getting into and to know I should add this as another factor I consider when looking at things like where to board, etc. 

I appreciate you putting into words something I’ve been noticing but wasn’t sure if I was quite seeing right. 



gottatrot said:


> Sadly, many people are also ashamed of their riding level and don't want to go out unless they're with others with similar skills. For me, it's enjoyable to go out and have a gentle ride, and it's good for horses to have those rides mixed in with more challenging ones. No one should be embarrassed about bouncing around or losing a stirrup because we all began that way.
> 
> But I can understand the sentiment. If I were to go rock climbing with an experienced climber, I would feel I was holding them back and annoying them just because they were so good at it.


I have a pretty high tolerance for embarrassing myself so long as I’m genuinely not annoying the people around me and am being safe. That said, I can be a little sensitive on the ‘not annoying people’ point, especially if I feel that people are going out of their way for me or I carry them in high esteem. I very much grew up the bullied geeky outsider. I have gained a tremendous amount of confidence since then, but I’ve also developed a disinterest in being anywhere I’m not welcome and a deep appreciation for those places where I genuinely am. I can embarrass myself all day (see: overweight in a leotard in a room full of athletic 20 year olds surrounded by wall-to-wall mirrors) but the last thing I want is to hold up the class.

A note on climbing specifically: One of the cool things about starting climbing, at least with gym top rope (which is where most beginners start), is that once you get to the “safe to belay” point just a few hours in, skill level no longer really matters much for partnering in the vast majority of cases (until you get to lead, but that’s another style of climbing entirely). In practice each person takes turns climbing and there’s no need to be climbing the same routes. While it can be fun to both be working on the same things so you can discuss them this is a very small benefit. This is why people drag their random friends into climbing: a newbie partner really is ~90% as good as an old-hat one for most purposes. So long as you pay rigorous attention to safety and treat it with the seriousness it’s due you would contribute just as much as someone who’s been around 10 years. 

If you ever develop curiosity and have the inclination to try climbing I would be thrilled to show you what I mean. 



gottatrot said:


> It would be nice if you could find someone who wanted help getting their 2nd, trained horse exercised and wouldn't mind teaching you. I've had several riders be my exercise rider and have given lessons to some in exchange for coming out with me once a week. Endurance riders are famous for having a back up horse and not having time to condition both. Yet they want someone to help keep the extra horse fit in case their #1 horse has an issue. It only took about a month's worth of lessons for me to get a high school girl out of the arena and conditioning horses on the trails with me.


That would be amazingly perfect, and might lead me to try to see if there are groups of endurance riders around here. That would honestly be excellent if I could run across such a thing. I’d be thrilled to follow someone’s lesson plans/exercise schedule for a horse - we could both use the work. 



gottatrot said:


> My experience was that I enjoyed lessons immensely when I couldn't have a horse. But as soon as it was possible for me to own one, lessons were extremely frustrating. I didn't want to go home afterward. An hour was too short, and over too soon. I wanted freedom. My cousin let me go out and ride her second horse whenever I wanted, and that was better....except spending time with him made me want my own horse even more. It was less than six months of this before I bought my own horse. With my own horse, I enjoyed lessons much more.


I can definitely understand that. All told it’s amazing how fast and hard the get-a-horse bug bites. How long were you riding before you started to consider it out of curiosity? 

I am in the precarious position that I theoretically _could_ pull that trigger, but really, really _shouldn’t_ for a multitude of very obvious reasons… but I can’t deny I’ve done a little pre-research (ok, how much would horse board and care _really_ cost given my situation…). Thankfully, it’s so hilariously obvious to me that I’m not ready there’s no real temptation just yet.

… but I may have bought a couple books on horse care/health and made a point to begin learning some of those theoretical foundations - you know… just in case those reasons cease to be as relevant in a few years...




phantomhorse13 said:


> I would LOVE if you randomly showed up some time I was trimming trail!! Finding people willing to do the work of trail maintenance and not just take advantage of the using the trails someone else cleared is hard (though maybe hunts are required to do such things as part of membership?).
> 
> However, I know there can be a lot of etiquette around hunting, so can't say for sure what kind of reception you would get. But someone willing to work for free sure seems like a no-brainer and it might allow you to make some good connections, especially if you are outgoing enough to explain to the people you meet that you are a new rider looking for more learning opportunities.


Hmm, I may consider reaching out to them. I heard about this via their newsletter (which they posted on their site). They were asking their members to come and dedicate some time. I could spend a few weekend days on it. I actually somewhat enjoy that sort of thing - though I don’t do much of it. 



phantomhorse13 said:


> Do you have any horse rescues or therapeutic riding centers in your area? Those places are always looking for volunteers and its often a way to get some great hands-on learning in exchange for some work.


*This is an amazing idea*. Yes, there is a horse rescue not far from here! And they have open drop-in volunteering hours to boot. One of them is conveniently right after my Saturday lessons actually (with just enough time to grab brunch between). This would be an amazing way to learn more about the realities of horse care.

Alright, I am going to try this out. I’m not sure if I will manage it this weekend or not due to a potential schedule conflict but if not this weekend then probably next weekend. *Thank you*. I am really excited about this actually.

I’m not sure why the idea of what will probably be mucking out stalls is so exciting to me right now - but it honestly really is.




Prairie said:


> When you feel you are able to ride comfortably in the open at all gaits, perhaps consider joining one the groups that interests you. Also, many of us with trailers are willing to give rides to others who don't have a trailer. Even when my 3 friends and I get together for our monthly ride (we've known each other for ages), we only take one trailer to save on gas, taking turns about whose trailer we use.


Yes, this is basically my plan. Right now I’m thinking of shooting for the next polo beginner seminar they offer (I’m guessing Spring). Then, as soon as I feel comfortable and have access to a horse I’ll look at the hunt trail rides. Really I’m just trying to put as much effort as I can towards that bar of ‘ride comfortably in the open at all gaits’ and general horse-knowledge. My sort of perfect world scenario right now is to use the winter to try to get in a lot of my arena-knowledge while it’s too cold to really ride out and maybe be ready for the spring. Though, as I’ve been saying I have no idea how reasonable or unreasonable that is.

The fact that people sometimes share trailers is good to know. I’d be thrilled for an arrangement like I pay gas but we use their trailer or some such. Really though this sounds like one of those needing to know people situations.


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## LlamaPacker

This is great now to read that you are figuring out ways to get involved with others who have horses! Really lots of good ideas here. For certain, if you volunteered on trails with the horse associations in our areas, several of which go out for a whole day to clear trails in late spring, coming also from the west side of the Cascades over to our side, you would definitely meet up with lots of people and probably find some that have extra horses that they need to have exercised, as others have mentioned. In our area, those horse clubs are called things like Trail Riders or Backriders Associations and you could find out from the local Forest Service offices what they are called in your area and what days in the late spring or early summer they have scheduled with the Forest Service to do the trail maintenance. Since we are on the hiking and stock-packing side of the equation, that is how I know how valuable those horsemen's associations are to all of us who use the trails and that the way I find out when the trails will be cleared is to call the Forest Service offices. So, trail-clearing won't be something you can do this late in the year, but you can be ready or be looking for them, if still interested in finding a group to join in the spring. I'll be looking forward to the stories of what ways you find to get more riding time in the winter!


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## StephaniHren

Cammey said:


> All told it’s amazing how fast and hard the get-a-horse bug bites. How long were you riding before you started to consider it out of curiosity?
> 
> I am in the precarious position that I theoretically _could_ pull that trigger, but really, really _shouldn’t_ for a multitude of very obvious reasons… but I can’t deny I’ve done a little pre-research (ok, how much would horse board and care _really_ cost given my situation…). Thankfully, it’s so hilariously obvious to me that I’m not ready there’s no real temptation just yet.
> 
> … but I may have bought a couple books on horse care/health and made a point to begin learning some of those theoretical foundations - you know… just in case those reasons cease to be as relevant in a few years...


Okay, I know you said that there's no real temptation to get a horse yet, but I just want to double caution against getting to wrapped up in the idea of ownership so quickly. There's so much involved with owning your own horse—blanketing/clipping, feed, identifying health problems/lameness, proper conditioning methods, tack selection, saddle fit, continued training, etc., plus the things you wouldn't expect to have to deal with like barn politics, conflicting advice, faulty professionals... the lists go on and on, and most of it is things that you can read about, but that you don't really _learn_ until you're confronted with them a few times.

Don't try to jump into it all too quickly, especially since you seem set on getting a more high maintenance breed of horse (there are calm OTTB's out there, for sure, but it sounds like you might be gung ho about the idea of getting something more high energy).

If you're looking to progress faster, I'd take more lessons a week (so two or three times a week, or more!) and then eventually look at the idea of leasing (through your lesson program, if possible) when you're at the point where you can walk/trot/canter without supervision and you've experienced at least a couple of spooks so that you know how to handle them on your own. I think the idea of riding with clubs sound fun, but at least in my area that's something you have to have your own horse for, so don't be discouraged if those avenues aren't open to you immediately.


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## Cammey

LlamaPacker said:


> This is great now to read that you are figuring out ways to get involved with others who have horses! Really lots of good ideas here. For certain, if you volunteered on trails with the horse associations in our areas, several of which go out for a whole day to clear trails in late spring, coming also from the west side of the Cascades over to our side, you would definitely meet up with lots of people and probably find some that have extra horses that they need to have exercised, as others have mentioned. In our area, those horse clubs are called things like Trail Riders or Backriders Associations and you could find out from the local Forest Service offices what they are called in your area and what days in the late spring or early summer they have scheduled with the Forest Service to do the trail maintenance. Since we are on the hiking and stock-packing side of the equation, that is how I know how valuable those horsemen's associations are to all of us who use the trails and that the way I find out when the trails will be cleared is to call the Forest Service offices. So, trail-clearing won't be something you can do this late in the year, but you can be ready or be looking for them, if still interested in finding a group to join in the spring. I'll be looking forward to the stories of what ways you find to get more riding time in the winter!


Very cool and good to know. I tried doing a little looking for 'backriders' but didn't find anything useful involving horses just yet. I didn't think to contact the Forest Service - but it sounds like a good project for the Spring. Thank you for the ideas. 




StephaniHren said:


> Okay, I know you said that there's no real temptation to get a horse yet, but I just want to double caution against getting to wrapped up in the idea of ownership so quickly. There's so much involved with owning your own horse—blanketing/clipping, feed, identifying health problems/lameness, proper conditioning methods, tack selection, saddle fit, continued training, etc., plus the things you wouldn't expect to have to deal with like barn politics, conflicting advice, faulty professionals... the lists go on and on, and most of it is things that you can read about, but that you don't really _learn_ until you're confronted with them a few times.
> 
> Don't try to jump into it all too quickly, especially since you seem set on getting a more high maintenance breed of horse (there are calm OTTB's out there, for sure, but it sounds like you might be gung ho about the idea of getting something more high energy).
> 
> If you're looking to progress faster, I'd take more lessons a week (so two or three times a week, or more!) and then eventually look at the idea of leasing (through your lesson program, if possible) when you're at the point where you can walk/trot/canter without supervision and you've experienced at least a couple of spooks so that you know how to handle them on your own. I think the idea of riding with clubs sound fun, but at least in my area that's something you have to have your own horse for, so don't be discouraged if those avenues aren't open to you immediately.



Oh trust me, I agree - for all the reasons you've listed and actually several more besides. I'm not even really at the point of trying to sketch out a roadmap or timeline for such a thing. Overall I still stick by my original statement that I don't want to own a horse I'm not ready for and leave that as my guiding principle. To make it a little more personal: the idea of getting my dream horse and the flatly ruining or hurting them due to my own lack of skill would be really freaking tragic - not to mention my own safety. "Ruin" in this context could be as mild as buying a horse with dressage training and screwing it all up because I'm not accurate enough with the cues. There's no point doing something wasteful like that. As you mentioned: this is even more of a factor because I'm not exactly looking at the absolute easiest of starting points. 

Let's be real here: I'm working on _posting trot_ and I'm not yet at a point where I'd feel comfortable riding my own lesson horse unsupervised in the open. I'm also not over the new-shiny-glow of the fact this is a new and interesting activity. As I said: the idea of me actually doing this at this point is absurd enough to be funny.

I start bi-weekly lessons this week. I actually don't think I can lease through this lesson program - though I do plan to ask, especially once we go into the winter-barn and therefore have an indoor arena. If that doesn't work out I have a back-up stable which does leasing specifically aimed at people looking to improve basic riding skills which, once I am comfortable enough, I am hoping to look into doing a quarter-lease (4 hours a week to practice) at. I'm also really excited about the prospect of learning a bit more about horse care via volunteering at the shelter - but we'll see how that goes.

I'm not putting timelines on anything because this needs to be driven by where I am at skill-wise and evaluated honestly with such in mind. That said, my most ambitious and crazy idea right now is that _if everything goes brilliantly and I come along as a student at a very rapid pace_ then perhaps looking at a half-lease sometime next summer of a sort where I could take the horse off-site trail riding (maybe even to that hunt trail-riding) might not be entirely absurd. As I've mentioned repeatedly I have no idea if that's at all realistic - but if you want an insight into my mind that's my crazy ambition right now - and it's not one I intend to follow through on unless I am certain I really am up to the task.

Believe it or not, contrary to how I may sometimes come off - I really do possess a well-developed self-preservation instinct and I'm not actually terribly prone to crazy and rash actions. I *am* however prone to setting high goals for myself and being rather driven. I also tend to funnel my excitement towards things into concrete steps that might make those things more likely to happen. Ideally I like to get out well ahead of anything I might actually _do_ so that when I get around to trying it out I am more likely to be successful. This means I've prepared for a lot of things that have never come to pass - but I feel the experience usually leaves me enriched as a person, so I see this as a benefit rather than a flaw. 

It's in that context that I'm starting to research and learn.


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## tinyliny

your excitement reminds me of how greedy and excited I get when I go to an art supply store; I am all into buying this or that new materials, for trying new techniques, new papers, new paints, new brushes, .. . etc. I just LOVE the gear and the dream. 

and then, it sits and takes up space in my room. it takes me forever to actually use them, and what I really need is to just draw, draw and draw. quantity over quality, for a while.


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## Cammey

tinyliny said:


> your excitement reminds me of how greedy and excited I get when I go to an art supply store; I am all into buying this or that new materials, for trying new techniques, new papers, new paints, new brushes, .. . etc. I just LOVE the gear and the dream.
> 
> and then, it sits and takes up space in my room. it takes me forever to actually use them, and what I really need is to just draw, draw and draw. quantity over quality, for a while.


If I had the ability to just ride, ride and ride that surely would be the right answer. 

I'm very limited in that right now - so to carry the metaphor forward I end up doing a lot of staring at galeries, researching composition and technique books, and reading art critique. In the end, it won't make my hands do what they need to do - but the hope is that it can help make my practice more informed once I get a chance to actually practice. I agree entirely that the ratio I have of practice/study right now is badly lopsided towards study. This is true even for someone like me who really _likes_ study and tends to employ a lot of it. But the reality is that I can only increase the 'practice' side so much with the access I have, so 'study' is the option I have available to work on. 

That said, in my opinion: Budget permitted there's nothing wrong with buying art supplies (or horse gear) if that's what brings you joy - even if they might sit on the shelf a bit (presuming they won't spoil). If you find you get more joy from _thinking_ about buying art supplies than actually doing so then by all means stop at that step. But I'm of the opinion that joy is a precious thing that should be nurtured, even if nurturing it doesn't always lead to the most logical or efficient processes. 


...

As a note: I can't actually think of a good way to indicate how much adopting that last statement as a philosophy has changed my life for the better. Am I being bit silly with all this? Definitely. But I'm also excited and enjoying it deeply. For me that's worth being a little silly.


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## Mimi2016

*Sounds like fun!*

Hello, I'm a re-rider (and apparently still learning to post messages because my last reply was lost...) after 20 years and having a great time! It's inspiring to read your journal, thank you for sharing.

A book that has very much helped me is _Centered Riding_, which offers very technical instruction, but you can take a few pointers to each lesson. 

I personally love being around horses and the people at the barn where I take lessons. As soon as I step in, everything else drops away, it's a great feeling! My trainer tells me that I often "overthink" and she is right. Maybe others do too. I'm trying to leave the "overthinking" to outside of lessons and just do the work in the practice ring each time I ride. For me it's like learning anything new, the outside work and research is very helpful to reinforce what I learned that day.

And when I'm on the horse, I feel joy. Have fun! We are all so lucky to have the opportunity to include horses in our lives.


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## tinyliny

Centered Riding is definitely a really great text to help a person get started and get better at riding.

_Centered Riding_, by Sally Swift


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## Cammey

To both @Mimi2016 and @tinyliny :

You may both laugh a little, but actually “Centered Riding” by Sally Swift was literally the first book on horses I read - at the recommendation of @egrogan earlier in this thread. 

My original plan in buying the recommended books was that I would work through each one and afterwards I would write up my thoughts in a sort of an overview/commentary format. Centered Riding actually threw a bit of a kink in that plan. This was because I realize I actually wanted to get a little farther along in riding before commenting on it too much. It really seemed to me a far better book on refining technique rather than a how-to, so I wanted to give it a good shake.

That said, now that I'm back to thinking about it and it's come up again it may be worthwhile putting down my thoughts in a post.


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## LlamaPacker

Yes, would love to hear your book reviews, as I'm already working on getting some of the ones that I've seen mentioned here in your thread, but will now wait until you tell us what you thought about them. Thanks!


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## tinyliny

you will find that as you go along, you go back and reread books, and you get more out of them every time you read, and as you know more about what they are talking about. 

you know, it's the old thing where you don't know what you don't know in the beginning, and as you go along, you begin to see how very much you DON'T know, . . you know what I mean.

all I can say is that the Centered Riding is a good one to keep for a later reread, in a year or two.


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## equinesmitten

tinyliny said:


> you will find that as you go along, you go back and reread books, and you get more out of them every time you read, and as you know more about what they are talking about.
> 
> you know, it's the old thing where you don't know what you don't know in the beginning, and as you go along, you begin to see how very much you DON'T know, . . you know what I mean.
> 
> all I can say is that the Centered Riding is a good one to keep for a later reread, in a year or two.


Yes! I have a library shelf of riding books and anytime I revisit one, I understand a concept a little better than the last time I read it. And I always keep reading. Sometimes something is worded in a way that you understand it so much better when one author says it than another.


----------



## Cammey

LlamaPacker said:


> Yes, would love to hear your book reviews, as I'm already working on getting some of the ones that I've seen mentioned here in your thread, but will now wait until you tell us what you thought about them. Thanks!


Awesome . I will start posting them as soon as I get a chance - probably Monday or Tuesday. I actually have my one for Centered Rider mostly written up. I just didn't post it because there's a huge chunk of 'I don't feel qualified to comment on this'. This will be incoming.



tinyliny said:


> you will find that as you go along, you go back and reread books, and you get more out of them every time you read, and as you know more about what they are talking about.
> 
> you know, it's the old thing where you don't know what you don't know in the beginning, and as you go along, you begin to see how very much you DON'T know, . . you know what I mean.
> 
> all I can say is that the Centered Riding is a good one to keep for a later reread, in a year or two.


Yep and agreed. At a bare minimum I want to re-read some of the sections after I actually have learned the foundations of the skills she talks about in each section. I.e. reading her section on the canter after I actually learn to canter to see how things come together.



equinesmitten said:


> Yes! I have a library shelf of riding books and anytime I revisit one, I understand a concept a little better than the last time I read it. And I always keep reading. Sometimes something is worded in a way that you understand it so much better when one author says it than another.


 I am kind of a reading addict honestly. It's one of the ways I really tend to approach learning. I have 7 equestrian books thus far, 3 of which I have read and 1 of which I'm working on. It's coming along. My favorite thus far has been Riding and Schooling horses by Harry D. Chamberlin - recommend by @bsms. It just really made some things click for me. I'll write up some stuff on that one as well.

Honestly, I would love to see (and maybe should start a thread somewhere) peoples book reviews/recommendations. There's so much good (and bad! - and just controversial) stuff out there that it's really interesting to hear different people's favorites/least favorites.


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## Cammey

*Lesson 4 and Volunteering*

Today was a sort of generally awesome day of riding and volunteering. 

*The Lesson*
Lesson started with herd-catching Dragon. That went pretty darn well actually. The halter I used was a lot stiffer and slid on quickly and effectively. The same two little treat-beggars as before came to bother me, but backed off fairly quickly once I threatened to thwack them. 

Walking back towards the gate, actually a bit away from the herd, I did get rushed at a little by… I think Bronze? He came over somewhat speedily at me from having been quite a ways away from the rest of the group, seeming like he was going to run pretty near me (though I don’t think into me - hard to explain how I knew that, but the body language wasn’t quite straight-on). I just had no patience for it. It was early. Perhaps I should have been more impressed or concerned - but I just really wasn’t. I got the rope ready to seriously clock him, and about the time I finished doing that (at which point he was probably 15’ away) he changed directions abruptly and took a considerably wider path around us. He never even got in range. 

Tacking up went smoothly - though slowly as I was doing all of it this time. I picked out Dragon’s hooves again (the joy of being first lesson). I chatted with Jill a little idly. 

The lesson itself went very well. After warm-up we spent the first two thirds of it mostly on posting trot - which is becoming much more reliably solid. I have gotten out from falling into being ‘behind the horse’ and the whole motion feels less rough and more reliable. I had much better speed control - I think largely because I’ve gotten better at shuffling around rein length without being so distracted that everything else falls apart. 

We then went on to picking at my form a bit on the lead line, and I was formally taught two-point. 

Two point just sort of clicked. I found a balance with the leg position which was just very comfortable and secure and was able to get into it reliably. It apparently looked pretty good from the ground as well. I was able to stay up there for a lap around our small lead circle without being forced out of it. Ironically, it actually felt better and less likely to fall forward than some of the times I’ve posted trot. 

We also did some lunge work involving focusing on stability/quietness/position of the hands in posting trot while holding imaginary reins and balance challenges. Airplane torso-turns remain my weak area - not dangerously so, but annoyingly so. I need more work on them.

Then my trainer had me two-point along the straight stretch in the arena and practice trot->two point->trot transitions. I tend to not be ready to immediately post after coming down from two-point… or maybe I’m just timing coming down wrong. Whatever, we weren’t picking on it today - just introducing the concept.

Then we did a whole bunch of no-stirrup work at the trot including a whole lot of drop-and-catch stirrups. Jill seems very intent that I get this skill down solidly. I usually catch at least one within a second or two and the other takes me a little longer - but despite being told I’m doing quite well at it she continues to drill it to the point where I’m wondering if it’s a serious safety-critical thing.

We haven’t yet gotten to posting trot without stirrups, but I see it coming. 

Jill seemed very pleased with how things went today. I mentioned to her I was thinking of possibly trying to do a quarter-lease or something on a horse to practice with and she immediately volunteered that when I was ready we can look at doing that for one of these horses in the winter - while making it clear that I am *not* ready to lease one of these horses yet. I agree with her and was unsurprised - but flatly excited that the possibility might exist in a timeframe that would include her winter arena season. 

Of course, after all that I am nearly an idiot and distracted. I do a great job un-tacking the bridle without missing anything or ever leaving control of the horse (Dragon is very forgiving, but other horses here may not be) but after that I get ahead of myself and start walking Dragon out with her saddle still on. Yes, seriously, I am that much of an idiot. . 

Jill asks me what I’m doing, and I shamefaced realize my foolishness and start rapidly heading back. I remove the tack and lamely explain to the next lesson (who’s finishing their own tack-up and looking at me like I’m crazy) that this is my fourth lesson and I am an idiot. She reassuringly tells me I’m doing great to be able to tack/un-tack the horse at all at this point.

I then forget the horse blanket, but honestly consider that a much more fair error considering I wasn’t even sure we still wanted her blanket on as it was getting warmer. 

I will say that a lot of times it seems that Jill is nowhere in sight/mind until I do something wrong/stupid, and then she’s right there catching it. I really do like that about her. 



*Volunteering*
After the lesson I rushed off to grab a quick deli sandwich in the nearby town and then drove out to the Rescue Barn. I would have missed it entirely were it not for google maps, which kindly pointed out that the long driveway with the ‘barn closed’ sign really was where I wanted to be. 

Open volunteering time had a _lot_ of volunteers. The sign-in sheet had 25 by the end of the day - plus the longer-term folk who I don’t believe bother to use the sheet. About two thirds of the volunteers there were youths and teenagers, with another third or so being adults. A lot of people seemed to know what they were doing, and I felt a little awkward trying to figure out who was in charge and who I should be talking to.

I turned in paperwork and was asked if knew anything about horses. I explained I had just started taking English lessons but had no real experience with horse care of any sort - though I’d be happy to learn. I was asked if I knew about basic horse safety. I said ‘don’t get behind the horse’ - that was apparently good enough. 

It was explained to me that everyone inside right now was actually pretty well behaved and safe - but that every unfamiliar horse here should be treated as potentially dangerous until I knew otherwise. This made perfect sense to me, especially given that this place specifically takes in horses confiscated for abuse (amongst other sources). 

The setup there included a number of areas - the largest barn included a small indoor arena surrounded by stalls on three sides. Some of these stalls had paddock areas which surrounded the barn and others were indoor-only. My understanding is most of those indoor-only stalls were occupied by horses with lameness issues, excepting one very scared mule who was with a friend in one of the big stalls working on being around people and the only horse inside I didn’t really interact with - who was cribbing basically the entire time I was there and seemed to be a source of discussion amongst the senior volunteers.

There were some sad scenes. The worst of these was a horse missing an eye that was still very fresh. I was actually warned I may not want to look, but not being at all squeamish I did. He was actually incredibly sweet - not the sweetest of all the horses there, but still shockingly polite and friendly given that he looked a bit a mess. I believe he was one of the thirty or so ‘permanent residents’ who the shelter has no real intention of adopting out and are here for a peaceful retirement.

Beyond the main barn there were several different pasture areas in which groups were turned out, each of which had fairly solid free-standing shelters open on two sides with water-hoses next to them. Then there was a whole separate barn which was occupied entirely by mules, donkeys, and a couple goats. That barn also had a lot of turnout area - but the animals seemed to crowd around inside more than the horses did. One goat kept asking for attention, but I didn’t want to risk getting nipped. 

My first job was topping off water-troughs, which was mostly doable from the isles but did involve getting into a few of the stalls. Then I swept the isles for a while, and contributed my tallness towards helping take down some of the summer fans. 

The stable overall was in the early stages of preparing for winter, and a lot of things were getting pulled out and checked on. Some of the biggest news was the discovery that one of the storage barns containing blankets had sprung a leak during all the obnoxious wetness that we had been having recently. This had wetted some of the blankets and led to mold. Unfortunately, as mentioned by the lead organizer “I have too many horses with respiratory problems to take any chances” and there was a considerable operation underway to clean, dry, sanitize, and throw away anything that might be impacted.

I ended up getting picked up by that team. Due to the fact we were dealing with mold and were being very careful in how we handled things it was only adult and older volunteers. It was a surprisingly big job that would end up taking our little team of four the entire rest of the volunteering day - every single blanket had to be pulled out, inspected carefully, and if any mold at all was spotted tossed. Anything where mold wasn’t spotted but which was close to any items where it had was slated for an even more careful inspection, and the items which neither had mold nor were close to mold were hung up to air out in the breeze. About a third of the supply was just trashed entirely. Someone was brought up to talk about how the leak would be fixed, then everything that was deemed safe was carefully folded, sorted by size, and re-packed onto newly labeled shelves now sitting on pallets up above the floor. 

“Team Blanket” was a lot of hard work, but was also fairly satisfying. I ended up getting on well with the lady who seemed to be leading it up (I think a chief volunteer?) who started talking about things like events she wants to organize in upcoming weeks. They seemed pleased to have me there - and I was thrilled as well.

Notably, one thing some of the more experienced volunteers did seem to be doing was working on desensitizing the horses and a little bit of work in-hand. I’d really like to get to the point where that is on my skill list. That said, that’d be more an item for the future. 

So overall - great day with the horses. Another lesson to come tomorrow - though I am not expecting anything terribly exciting.


----------



## Cammey

*Lesson 5: Learning to Share*

I woke up sore this morning and realized the cost of my decision to add the rescue work in the same weekend that I added my back-to-back lessons. Keep in mind that an entire lesson of posting trot still leaves me a little sore as it is. Barn chores also result in soreness. I’m in pain and we haven’t even gotten to the lesson yet.

While I understand that daylight savings time is a real annoyance for some people it was my savior this morning. I woke up early to force myself through a full 20 minute stretch routine, grabbed a protein-filled breakfast, and then stretched some more. Finally, I gave in and took a painkiller - I’m going to be paying for this, but I’d like to pay for it while sitting at my desk job tomorrow instead of during my lesson time.

When I arrived at the lesson I was very confused… there was another student there. I was wondering if one of us (perhaps me, perhaps her) had managed to screw our times up. She went out to catch her lesson horse, and I sort of tentatively walked forward until Jill told me to go catch Dragon.

I just kind of went with it. Catching Dragon at the beginning of feeding time was both easier and harder than prior attempts. On the plus side, no one else bothered me at all. On the downside, Dragon actually required a bit of effort to get away from the food. She was utterly polite in letting me mess with her, but as soon as I went to lead her away from the hay she actually took a fair bit of assertiveness. I also didn’t bring a treat out, so she hadn’t been pre-bribed (though oh I spoiled her during grooming… she DID miss breakfast after all). 

I ended up tacking up a little hastily to try to keep up with the other obviously much-more-advanced student. I skipped hoof picking due to time. This is probably where I should have asked what was going on - but to avoid being awkward I just focused on getting myself ready and figured my curiosity would eventually be satisfied and if I had any issues with it I could talk with Jill about it privately later.

As to what was going on: well, I got to learn what it was like to ride Dragon with another horse around. I’m not completely sure if this was by planning or because the other student had a lesson to make up - but either way it ended up working out very well.

We very much were on two separate tracks doing entirely different things. Her lesson was Pepper, who if you recall from my second post had just come in from off the track less than a month ago. They were focusing quite a bit on flexibility and balance while doing tighter turns and at the tail end the smallest bit of jumping - while dealing with another horse in the ring. My lesson was mostly spent trying to clean up and polish my posting trot and two-point with the new element of dealing with another horse in the ring. 

… It was a probably unhealthy amount of fun. 

Probably a third of my lesson was spent just trying to learn to really control corners while posting trot. Another third was spent working on weaving around fences while another horse also was weaving around fences - working on both steering and environmental awareness. The last third was spent on ‘fun’ stuff - two-pointing and cavaletti, now set up much closer together. 

For the most part Dragon was absolutely fine with another horse around - it was clear this was very old-hat. There were a couple times where she sort of tried to ‘latch on’ to the other horse and I had to gently pull her attention back but I suspect this was much more a challenge for the rider on Pepper then it was for me. 

The weaving around each other was just a tremendous amount of fun. I was the less experienced rider, but Dragon could turn on a dime if I needed her to in order to avoid a problem (and I have no problems staying on when she does this). The more experienced rider was obviously much more familiar with this exercise but Pepper didn’t do nearly as well with tight turns or following turning cues. Overall the exercise was just challenging enough to be really enjoyable, and neither of us ended up needing to halt our horses to avoid disrupting each other. 

Going up into two point the first couple times went _beautifully_. My assessment from yesterday was right - I just needed to find the right moment to come down in order to be ready to start posting immediately. After I 'got' it this clicked into place a couple times in a row.

Then as things got a little more exciting I discovered a new problem - I would go into two point and Dragon would speed WAY the heck up. I _think_ we were still in trot - but it was a trot at a speed I have not ridden in any other context. The first time she did this I aborted my two-point shortly after she drove forward - which put me trying to slow her down from the seat during a quite bumpy (but secure enough) ride. The second time I just stayed up in two point and tried to slow her down from there, which worked better (but led to me discovering that she steers quite beautifully from two-point because I was running out of arena-space). To be honest, this is now something I will need to figure out. I am pretty sure there’s something I’m cueing wrong that’s telling her to do this, or that she’s taking as an excuse/permission to do this. Jill indicated I’m giving her too much rein - so that’s the next item to work on. 

Posting over the cavaletti was still very rocky. Jill gave me permission to two-point over them as an experiment and admittedly I found that a lot more comfortable. Then I kept doing it and Jill called me out on doing it because it let me avoid trying to post trot over the cavaletti… she was right. I was no longer allowed to two-point over the cavaletti until I can properly post trot over them.

There’s something weird happening with my timing and Dragon’s timing whenever we go over them. It always ends with me a little off-balance forward as we step off the last one, and then coming down a little late. I asked Jill and she basically told me that while she could pick at the timing the best way to get this one will just be to keep trying it until my body figures it out - but at the same time we can't just drill it repeatedly mostly for the horse's sake. So we're going to work on getting the foundations of posting solid and then keep coming back to this exercise until I have it smoothly. 

By the time we were done both Pepper and Dragon were genuinely tired and well worked. Dragon was sweaty for the first time I’ve ridden a lesson with her and we got to do the ‘we just really had a workout’ un-tacking with grooming. This involved re-curry combing her out, especially around where the saddle was. I also got around to doing her hooves at this time - though they didn’t need it nearly as bad as they had previously. Then I spoiled her some more. 

She got to be put into one of the stalls to get her own private breakfast and relax a little. I believe she had another lesson in an hour or two. For my part I am exhilarated but for the first time during a lesson my body really has been tested - my legs feel a little jelly-like and I am really just wiped. 

A nap may be in order.


----------



## Cammey

*Centered Riding - by Sally Swift*

*Overview*


> This book, on the whole, does not teach you how to ride. There are countless excellent books that do just that. What I do here is offer all riders a new approach to riding based on some mental and physical images that I have developed over many years.


That is the first line from the first chapter of this book. It’s an apt description. Centered Riding will not explain the basics of how to canter for example - what it does is promote a mindset that it claims will deepen a rider’s understanding and skill at riding, building on the foundations of at least a novice’s skill and presuming to assist a more advanced rider to “gain that special magic - that something extra - that makes the difference between competence and excellence”. Primarily it aims to accomplish this through the introduction of basic meditative techniques and visualization exercises which help explain or correct common errors which occur during different types of movements when riding. Some of these are general (foundations) and some of these are area-specific. 

The first six chapters, conclusion, and one outlier (Chapter 15 “Forces of Energy”) go over those foundations and basic mindset. The remaining thirteen chapters and 3 appendices address specific skills. 

Sally’s method starts with what she calls “The Four Basics” in chapter three. They are:


 *Eyes* - Cultivating what she calls ‘soft eyes’ - which is a gaze generally aware of surroundings but without fixating on any given point (to oversimplify some). 
 *Breathing* - Breathing rhythmically through the diaphragm (and visualizing breathing lower)
 *Centering* - The way this is defined lies somewhere between finding your physical center of balance and a more meditative concept of ‘center’ (“Most of us tend to be top and front oriented. We also fuss too much about details, do a lot of over-organizing, and breathe mostly in our chests.”)
 *Building Blocks* - In essence, this is a way to think about posture and lining up posture. 

In Chapter 4: Learning the Brain she details how she feels people think and should think: introducing a right-brain/left-brain concept; the idea of the ‘Inner Video’ (a way of mentally rehearsing or reviewing activities); talking about cultivating the ‘true’ form of concentration (which she describes as focused and relaxed); and also the mentalities most useful for awareness and self-exploration. 

Chapters 5 and 6 go through anatomy and details of posture - including numerous visualizations and stretching exercises (on horseback) to try to achieve the relaxed and correct posture she is promoting. 

Throughout the main sections (chapters 7-14 and 16-19) she focuses on individual gaits and skills - primarily by introducing explanations and visualizations. Her visualizations are imaginative and can often be somewhat fanciful. For example, in her section on finding the correct balance in posting trot, she describes this exercise:



> The feeling of stability acquired by riding within the parallelograms can be enhanced by imagining that your legs are growing longer, so that your feet are resting flat on the ground - ground that is soft, warm summer mud (Fig.73)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let it ooze up between your relaxed toes; enjoy the warmth around your feet and ankles. The pleasure of letting your feet down in the mud has the effect of softening the legs, knees, and ankles. Your seat will deepen in the saddle while lengthening, quieting, and stabilizing the lower legs and feet. Any pinching by the knees will disappear.


These visualizations are presented both when explaining concepts and as exercises to be followed. They are paired up with more conventional posture commentary to form the bulk of the advice given throughout the specific-technique section of the book. 

In Chapter 15: Forces of Energy there is a brief digression to explain, delicately and cautiously, the concept of ‘energy’ (or ki). 



> The Japanese have a concept known as _ki_ (pronounced ‘key’). It is the extra energy derived from awareness that allows you to do more than muscles alone could possibly do. If you use your muscles to do what _ki_ can accomplish, the result would be rough and strenuous, owing to the kind of extreme effort you would have to put out. Using _ki_, you can find energies beyond your measurable muscular output. Your _ki_ is in action when you and your horse are moving together with a minimum of effort - resulting in lightness, vigor, correctness, and beauty. Just as the energy and power of all the martial arts comes from your center, so does _ki_.


There are then several visualizations given which focus on working with _ki_ which include dropping a chain and recycling energy. 

The book finishes up with 3 appendices - Riding a Dressage Test (Which is more ‘better mindset going into a dressage test’), the Instructor’s Guide to Leg-Lengthening (a set of assisted stretches to relax and lengthen a student’s leg) and Quick review of Useful Images (a quick reminder sheet of the visualizations and views described in each section of the book). 



*Thoughts*

So it’s worth recalling that I first was convinced to pursue riding as an interest while chatting with some long-time friends _at a meditation retreat_. A lot of the concepts laid out in Centered Riding are fundamentally formed by taking foundational meditative concepts and applying them to equestrian arts. 

Her four foundations are right out of a meditation class. The concept of ‘soft eyes’ she discusses is called ‘soft gaze’ in meditation - though her general description goes even a bit beyond that to suggest something more like adopting a light open monitoring meditation mindset. The breathing section is likewise right out of foundational meditation breathing - including the exact visualizations described. Specifically - while she keeps referring to eastern practices in the text, her visualizations root from a more modern and westernized method of visualizing - which is almost certainly the best way to introduce the concepts to her audience as they’re better targeted towards them. Her section on ‘centering’ seems to waffle a little between the physical concept of center-of-gravity and the energetic/spiritual concept of ‘center’. I think she’s stretching a little to try to tie the two together, but that’s not at all uncommon in some philosophies of meditation either (just a pet-peeve of mine personally - and one she manages honestly better than most). Her Building Blocks would be just posture - which is another meditation foundation - except that her version is _on a horse_ and combined with general riding posture - and thus is completely different from sitting on the floor which is how this is usually (initially) taught.

All throughout this section and the book generally Sally Swift really seems to walk the line on how ‘mystical’ she’s willing to get - constantly working to keep the book concrete enough and rooted in the physical so as not to come off as whacky, while at the same time trying to draw and pull in insights from a multitude of sources. In her attempts to do this she dances on the line of one of my personal annoyances by misstating science a little (her right brain/left brain commentary for example) and wading into controversies without indicating she’s wading into controversies (saying t’ai chi ch’uan is the precursor to all of the Oriental martial arts) but the book was published in 1985 and I am honestly far more forgiving of statements like this made before the advent of the internet and easy research. She also doesn’t do it often or in a way that threatens the credibility of her statements without these appeals to authority. To judge it as a book on meditative practices (which also sometimes do this) she manages it better than most.

The trade-off with trying to avoid delving too far into the potentially weird is that she ends up skipping a lot of explanations that would be helpful in being able to take her descriptions and put them into practice. To my reading there are two distinct styles of visualization she uses - the most common is designed for the body to physically ‘follow along’ and then a few are designed to be more purely energetic (“_ki_”) in nature. Now, many people just ‘get’ visualization in the first sense - they do a visualization and their body instantly responds. If I say ‘imagine a string coming from the top of your head and pulling you towards the sky’ and you find that your neck extends and your shoulders drop, then you are probably one of those people. In this case, the majority of her instructions will probably make sense to you and have potential use. 

I suspect far fewer people (though definitely some) just ‘get’ the sort of energy work she’s talking about in chapter 15. The ‘drop the chain’ exercise is more commonly called ‘grounding’ and her explanation of it is, in my opinion, definitely not detailed enough to really do it if you don’t already know what she’s talking about. You might luck into it, but it will require a fair bit of natural intuition. Of course, saying that, a variant of this exercise (specifically “Grounding and Centering” - not designed to slow or stop the horse, but just to facilitate connection between myself, the horse, and the earth below us) was literally the first thing I did when I first got up on Dragon my first lesson in order to gain a sense of balance, calmness, and awareness of what was going on. I believe it was incredibly helpful and credit a fair bit of my first-lesson success to it (especially in my ability to tell how Dragon was reacting to things and having a 'feel' for her intent). So personally I think this is an incredibly useful set of exercises - but I don’t think I could follow them from just what was written in the book without any prior familiarity with meditative work. 

Another favorite of mine is what she calls “videotape” - which I usually call “visualize->do”. I was trying to describe this in a response to @StephaniHren earlier in this thread, but the author does a much better job I think generally describing it and more ways it can be useful. I actually haven’t run into this as much in meditation - but in sports - though it applies to both. 

So in the areas where my knowledge already overlapped with the book’s points, I obviously think they’re pretty useful - though her explanations are only really going to ‘click’ for a portion of the population lacking any further explanation. Personally, without some background, I probably wouldn’t have been on that list. It took me a very long time to ‘get’ this sort of mindset and I did not find it very natural without a considerable amount of time spent. 

That leaves me looking at the material which is genuinely new to me - all the parts specifically about horses. 

Of the book’s chapters, there are only 3 that actually detail things I can currently really do - the walk, rising trot, and sitting trot. 

At the walk, one of the exercises (‘stubby legs’) I am currently playing with extensively right now and seeing how much it makes things better/worse. So far I am not sure of my results and don’t feel right commenting. Letting my body follow the horse is useful (and something I was working on during that trail ride) but I will need more practice with. It does make an excellent warm-up exercise though - and I’ve found also helps to open up and relax my hips during my way-too-early lessons. I haven’t had a chance to try the third arm-above-head exercise because I haven’t had a good chunk of unsupervised riding where it wouldn’t look silly. 

Most of the trot exercises are either correcting problems I don’t have (I don’t tend to bunch around my chest, I lean back too much instead) or I have yet to see results from - but I believe it’s only fair to give them a better shot at what they’re supposed to be doing - _which is perfecting an already developed gait_ rather than just teaching how to do something in the first place. I think I need to get reliable in the basics before trying to apply them.

Much of the rest of the book is talking about things I can’t even do yet at all - let alone work on ways to clean up - so I feel unqualified to comment on their usefulness even to myself, let alone anyone else.



*Conclusion*

So overall my impression of the book is very positive and I would strongly recommend it to most riders looking for an alternative approach to polish their technique. Some of the explanations may not ‘click’ for everyone (especially around Chapter 15) but the offering is unique enough to the market and potentially useful enough that it’s likely worth giving a shot. This is doubly true if you’re the sort of person who finds illustrative visualizations useful in general.

Personally I suspect I will be coming back to this book for a while as my general riding level improves and I get to the point of trying to polish things. I plan to try out the exercises as they become relevant and keep the ones that prove useful. Until then I really can’t comment much on all the techniques I haven’t tried - we’ll see how things shake out.


----------



## Cammey

I just found out from an update on facebook that the horse I mentioned in my earlier post with the missing eye had to be put down tonight. 

Apparently a biopsy came back cancerous and she was showing signs of neurological damage. It was explained that there was no good quality of life expected for her. Her friend, who had been rescued from the same auction, was suffering from white line disease to the point where she apparently didn't have much of a foot left. I am afraid (but not positive) that the horse they're talking about was the one in the adjacent stall - who *was* the sweetest horse I spent some time with. I knew she was stall-confined due to lameness, but I hadn't realized the severity of the situation. The rescue group opted to let both of them go together. 

I had forgotten this really sad part of animal rescue volunteering. 



*Note:* I had mistaken the horse with the eye issues for being a gelding - I realized from the announcement she was actually a mare.


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## LlamaPacker

Thanks, Cammey, for that great book review! I love hearing that it is "meditative" and covers "visualization", as have much belief in those techniques for improving things. Sounds like a book that I need to have, and being old, probably easy to find used, so will head now to Amazon.com.... love it!


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## Cammey

LlamaPacker said:


> Thanks, Cammey, for that great book review! I love hearing that it is "meditative" and covers "visualization", as have much belief in those techniques for improving things. Sounds like a book that I need to have, and being old, probably easy to find used, so will head now to Amazon.com.... love it!


Glad I could help!

I may post a few more of these as I come to them mid-week. Hopefully they'll be interesting.


----------



## Cammey

*Lesson 6: Meeting the Horse-Eating Monster*

I was still feeling not great this morning from being on the recovery-side of a nasty cold/flu, but was determined to make it to lessons and (if possible) volunteering as well. So I made myself some hot tea (to deal with sinus congestion), forced myself to eat a little protein, and hauled my rear end out the door. 

Catching Dragon has now become fairly routine. I no longer twist up the halter and can put it on fairly quickly. I know how to chase off treat-beggars. I am learning who is always going to be a pest and to what extent. I’ll probably have this figured out right in time for everything to change when we move indoors in a few weeks (and thus no longer are herd-catching). I also bought a pair of muck boots, so even though the ground is _finally_ hardening up a bit what mud there was worried me less.

This morning Dragon was a bit peppier than I’ve seen her in a while. She looked at me curiously when I came over with a bit of a ‘my turn?’ look, made it very easy to halter her, and didn’t hesitate a second even though I was pulling her away from breakfast with no treat-bribe. She didn’t even bother to stop for a drink of water on the way out. 

I mentioned to Jill that she seemed a bit more awake today. She didn’t seem to think too much of it, but mentioned that Dragon had been ridden hard yesterday and had a busy day planned today so she had actually been stalled overnight and fed a bit of grain to ensure she was ready and well-rested, and thus had only been let out a little while before I had gotten there.

We warmed up briskly, with Dragon not making it full lap of walking before she suggested we speed up. When I let us into the Western Jog she did it _beautifully_ - keeping a slow but strangely energetic pace without the slightest speed change, headset perfect, pushing herself into corners with barely a suggestion, and generally making us both look very good. I’d love to take credit for this - but I don’t think I did anything terribly differently. We jogged happily through a pool of falling autumn leaves - it was lovely.

Then, on our second lap around the arena, she jumped sideways.

If I hadn’t had stirrups I would have been in serious danger of falling - I DID go off-balance for a fraction of a second and felt my seat start to slip slightly before I caught myself - but in the next instant I was back square and solid. Jill started rapidly issuing commands at me regarding getting Dragon going in a tight circle, though I did not get as much a sense she was going to bolt at that point. 

So apparently what happened is there were some new decorations (fake halloween headstones actually) leaning against one of the jumps which Dragon decided was a sufficient excuse to spook. I say ‘excuse’ because apparently Dragon has a very old habit where when she got very energetic and bored she would decide to spook at something utterly random in a fairly dramatic fashion. At first, this was worrying to people and got her treated like a nervous hot thoroughbred - a lot of sympathetic gentle acclimatization work. This was apparently a mistake, because it makes the behavior much worse and made her do it much more often. It mostly went away after it was realized she was doing it for attention/fun and started treating it as more of a behavioral problem. She hadn’t tried it in a long while. It’s been over a year since the last time - and with that it was almost always specifically in the indoor arena when she was stalled with no turnout for a while and would get very pent up. 

So the first bit of the lesson time was dealing with this spook and trying to teach Dragon that the headstones were not, in fact, horse-eating monsters. We circled them a bunch, spiraling in closer - with the eventual goal of getting her to smell them. Jill would have preferred I been much stronger with her on this point, but honestly I wasn’t strong-enough handed (or willed as her back arched up) to keep her from walking past them. This horse can be hard to stop in the best of times. 

But after long enough of her dithering “Oh you want me to sniff THIS fence over here, NEXT to the thing I’m complaining about? OK!” I was losing patience (I believe this was try #6. This was getting old...) I went through and after she pushed through my halt command to turn to walk _right on the other side of the same fence_ - I made her back up to where I wanted her to stop - step by step. She didn’t like this one bit - but not in an ‘oh I’m scared’ way, more in an ‘ick I hate this exercise’ way. 

It was slow and painful - but it worked. After we got back to line-of-sight on the spooky object it was mysteriously completely and utterly uninteresting. There was no acknowledgement that it was OK - it just sort of ceased to exist. Jill and I were both watching it a little (Jill would later tighten my girth a touch just in case) but the only acknowledgement I got from Dragon after that point was decidedly *not* looking in its direction - and even pushing her shoulder out a little bit towards it as we walked by and turning her head away slightly (which is what Jill was asking me to make sure she was doing so she wouldn’t keep rubber-necking at it… but Dragon was doing it before I was aware that’s what I was supposed to be doing…).

So that was interesting.

The rest of the lesson was frankly a lot more routine. We did a lot more posting trot (it’s getting better! It’s also getting a lot less exhausting.) and more two-point (including at the walk, which is surprisingly hard). There was more stirrupless riding and stirrup-catching exercises. I played around with what Jill called ‘pattern work’ which is weaving a series of pretty tight turns while maintaining good form and a solid posting trot.

We did post-over-cavaletti - this is getting MUCH better though it’s definitely not there yet. I confirmed it’s not just my imagination - she rides very differently over cavaletti poles than she does over the ground even if she’s still technically just trotting. The pace is the same but amount of up-and-down motion is noticeably increased and it subtly affects the timing/position of my butt coming back down onto her back (so it seems to screw up the timing to me - but it’s not). I also got to learn to _intentionally_ get a little behind-the-motion going _into_ the cavaletti series to keep her from excitedly rushing into it. Apparently with her (and with several horses like her) at the beginning of a day/course of jumping you may have to energize/encourage her going into jumps/exercises but after just a couple you will almost always have to work to contain her instead - learning how to partner with a horse and how much to energize/hold back will be one of the key things to work on as I go into learning about jumping courses.

We did more lunge-line work - notably some new and I believe supposed-to-be-harder balance exercises (hugging myself, more various arm motions). The trickiest one was hands-over-head while posting trot, straight into two-point from there (so hands come down right into position), then back to posting trot. Getting as far down the neck as Jill wanted my hands (so no curling in on myself or slipping my legs back) without actually needing to touch/balance on the neck was genuinely really hard - but fun. Jill likes my feet and legs in two-point but is working on getting me to flatten out my back more.

We did a little bit of sitting a much more active english-style trot. Jill told me she wants this very solid as preparation for the canter. 

Of course, the world seems determined to ensure that I don’t make it through an entire lesson without doing something hilariously wrong. In today’s case it was trying to dismount. I underestimated how weak my legs would be (... I’ve been pretty sick...) so when I went to lower myself down my stirrup-leg unexpectedly had muscle-failure part way through and sent me down pretty hard. I ended up off balance and stumbling backwards, nearly (but not quite) falling on my behind. At least I managed to dropped the reins before I would have yanked them - so small victories in checking my reflexes.

Overall it was a really fun lesson. I am honestly a bit glad to be over the hurdle of my first spook that involved the horse doing something seriously weird (rather than just freezing up and rushing like the trail horse did). I was honestly expecting speed-control to be an issue today just with how peppy she was - but I was caught *very* off guard by the spook. (I mean, I had been by that exact spot twice prior in the past 5 minutes). I am pleased both that I stayed on, but also that it didn’t rattle me too much - though I will confess I had to fight my instincts a bit to keep pushing her back so aggressively to the spot that was “spooking” her. I had kinda hoped this was basically how this would go. 


*Volunteering Day 2*
So after the lesson I was flat-out-exhausted and seriously debating if I wanted to go in today. But I had said I would show up to discuss some future event stuff and I didn’t want to disappoint anyone, so I hauled my pathetically-weak behind in.

I volunteered for a nice calm job cleaning out and organizing grooming gear. I spent most of the the day scrubbing dried mud off of less-used gear to try to get it looking decent again and combing hair out of brushes. Some brownies had been brought in for ‘team blanket’ for dealing with the shed as a thank-you (Seriously? It was not that bad) but other than being on my feet and inhaling an awful lot of dust (which normally doesn’t bother me at all, but was misery today) it wasn’t too physically demanding.

I did get asked what I did career-wise and upon explaining it ended up in a conversation that went something like this:

*Her:* “Do you know anything about computers?”
*Me:* “Well… yes…”
*Her:* “What about websites? Could you teach me how to update our website?”
*Me:* “Um, I could probably figure it out. Are you guys using a CMS? Style Sheets? Raw HTML?”
*Her:* “You are speaking Greek…”

So after a bit of discussion I may end up helping out updating the website, because apparently it’s horribly out-of-date and they have a very hard time keeping it current. They have a lot of cool ideas on what they’d like to do (sponsor a horse stuff with monthly updates on the horse for example) but so far they’re having trouble just keeping the actively adoptable horses listed on the site and taken down when they’re no longer available. There’s someone else who volunteered to do content/pictures but has only minimal technical skills (... I am tempted to try to fix that). 

Honestly, it’s been years since I’ve done any real website work - and I said as much, but I doubt this is tricky. Scanning the source on the main page it looks like they’re using some sort of hosting-provider provided CMS. I will spare this forum a bunch of techno-babble on the pros and cons of that approach, but at a minimum so long as we’re just updating things it should be hilariously easy to do. I will hopefully get to see the back-end sometime over Thanksgiving week when I have some time off and thus can do a mid-day meeting with the organization head (who is apparently currently trying to maintain the site herself). 

This sort of thing comes up a _lot_ to tech people who get anywhere near nonprofit organizations, so it’s not that surprising. I _am_ a little surprised how fast I was asked about it though and there’s a little part of me that wants to go into a security rant. On the other hand, they sound like they’re in a tough spot where the site is hardly ever getting touched so I can understand the drive to get something happening with it quickly. 

This will not, of course, help me learn anything about horses… but it’s an awesome cause and hopefully this won’t end up with me committing to more work than I intend.


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## gottatrot

Very interesting book review of Centered Riding. 
It was enjoyable to get your perspective, and I realize that many of the things you wrote are what I vaguely thought when I read it the first time but wasn't able to articulate.

While I agree with a lot of the book, and many of the visualizations can be helpful, there is one major point where I part ways with the ideas in the book. The idea of riding with your upper legs only (pretending your legs stop at the knees), softly flowing down into your lower legs, and et cetera work just fine if you are planning to only do dressage. These concepts will not give you a solidly secure seat if you are galloping, jumping, or if you ride a horse that spooks and spins. 

What helped me far more was a quote from George Morris "your security is in your lower leg." In reality, to ride the rough, tough and fast things you must have the ability to get your weight distributed all along your leg and into the stirrups, using your proprioceptors. Only using the proprioceptors in our upper body does not give us enough advantage when a horse moves out from underneath us faster than we can blink, and our upper legs do not move enough to react if they are loose and do not have any muscle tension as we sit on the horse. 


> Proprioceptors detect any changes in physical displacement (movement or position) and any changes in tension, or force, within the body. They are found in all nerve endings of the joints, muscles, and tendons. The proprioceptors related to stretching are located in the tendons and in the muscle fibers.
> STRETCHING AND FLEXIBILITY - Physiology of Stretching


Well, it's a favorite subject of mine since it has helped me learn to stay on many horses in many situations.

Congratulations on riding the spook! Great job. 

So very sad about the horses at the rescue. I'm glad they were able to end their suffering. 

Yes, going over cavaletti can change the trot into a very big movement that is difficult to stay with. It can really help with your two pointing and preparation to learn jumping because it helps demonstrate how to stay with a horse's motion and not get behind or forward.


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## Cammey

gottatrot said:


> While I agree with a lot of the book, and many of the visualizations can be helpful, there is one major point where I part ways with the ideas in the book. The idea of riding with your upper legs only (pretending your legs stop at the knees), softly flowing down into your lower legs, and et cetera work just fine if you are planning to only do dressage. These concepts will not give you a solidly secure seat if you are galloping, jumping, or if you ride a horse that spooks and spins.
> 
> What helped me far more was a quote from George Morris "your security is in your lower leg." In reality, to ride the rough, tough and fast things you must have the ability to get your weight distributed all along your leg and into the stirrups, using your proprioceptors. Only using the proprioceptors in our upper body does not give us enough advantage when a horse moves out from underneath us faster than we can blink, and our upper legs do not move enough to react if they are loose and do not have any muscle tension as we sit on the horse.
> 
> Well, it's a favorite subject of mine since it has helped me learn to stay on many horses in many situations.


I confess, that is very high on my priority list right now - learning to stay on the horse. I've accepted that my path is likely to make that an absolutely critical skill to pick up _quickly_ and _solidly_. Today wasn't my day to go off a horse... but let's be realistic: with the path I'm on right now, that's an inevitability and I am getting a little old to be bouncing off the ground too often, so I'd like to make it as rare as is reasonably feasible.

I will look up George Morris and any thoughts/advice you have in this regard would be greatly appreciated. I've seen some of the crazy stuff you've stayed glued on for (love your youtube btw). 



gottatrot said:


> Yes, going over cavaletti can change the trot into a very big movement that is difficult to stay with. It can really help with your two pointing and preparation to learn jumping because it helps demonstrate how to stay with a horse's motion and not get behind or forward.


Yep. This is why I have a love/hate relationship with them right now - though leaning far more towards love because as I've seen some small improvements I have a lot of hope. I honestly wish I could 'drill' these more than I actually reasonably can in a single lesson (for the horse's sake) but all of it will come with time. There are thankfully a *lot* of things to work on right now. 

Thank you for the feedback, appreciated as always .


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## gottatrot

Cammey said:


> I will look up George Morris and any thoughts/advice you have in this regard would be greatly appreciated.


It might sound baffling, but that quote which made a big 
difference in my riding is one of the few things I like about Morris. He is a bit heavy handed for my taste, and really believes in forcing the horse into what you want, albeit with a strong and secure seat. 

It's a tricky thing, learning about horses. For me it's been a long and difficult road to find out what I believed and what worked and didn't for me personally. There has never been a trainer or guru I followed completely, because agreeing with one thing does not mean you will find anything else they say true or helpful. There is lots of good advice on this forum, and as with anything, science and logic and compassion for the animal are faithful guides. 

Something that has helped me is watching videos of cross country riding and seeing how those riders keep a secure seat. There are keys as with anything athletic to staying supple yet with the appropriate amount of muscle tension, joint flexion, etc.


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## greentree

Look up Lucinda Green!!! She is an awesome cross country clinician!


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## Cammey

gottatrot said:


> It might sound baffling, but that quote which made a big
> difference in my riding is one of the few things I like about Morris. He is a bit heavy handed for my taste, and really believes in forcing the horse into what you want, albeit with a strong and secure seat.
> 
> It's a tricky thing, learning about horses. For me it's been a long and difficult road to find out what I believed and what worked and didn't for me personally. There has never been a trainer or guru I followed completely, because agreeing with one thing does not mean you will find anything else they say true or helpful. There is lots of good advice on this forum, and as with anything, science and logic and compassion for the animal are faithful guides.
> 
> Something that has helped me is watching videos of cross country riding and seeing how those riders keep a secure seat. There are keys as with anything athletic to staying supple yet with the appropriate amount of muscle tension, joint flexion, etc.


Yeah, I'm finding a lot of use in videos of various sorts - my early riding experience would greatly suffer were it not for youtube. Watching videos of horses 'playing up' is something I've started doing some of as well - just to watch how skilled riders react to it in order to properly stay in place.

As far as finding trainers: at this point I'm really just absorbing information from a lot of sources to store up as approaches to try when the situation emerges. I'll form opinions on it later, after I have a broader base of experience to draw from. Most of the really impassioned differences of opinion seem to be centered around horse-training rather than around rider-training (where there are controversies, but they seem less passionate) which is mostly what I'm focusing on at the moment. 

To be honest, for training I am probably going to end up starting with a baseline of learning what my trainer uses - because in all likelihood I'll be working on her horses as I hit that stage in my own development - and her horses, her rules. I'm genuinely comfortable with that because I like her results both in horses and riders. Her horses seem healthy and happy, seem to like people and riding, and while they're perhaps a bit 'spirited' for some people that has an awful lot to do with the types of horses she starts with. Her riders seem a bit more on the adventurous side as well - but that fits with me. 

My suspicion is that a lot of the differences in approach come from how you view the psychology of horses, the human/horse relationship, time spent in training, and eventual goals. My opinions are still fluid on all of the above at this point. 




greentree said:


> Look up Lucinda Green!!! She is an awesome cross country clinician!


So I've been trying to find good stuff by Lucinda Green/Lucinda Prior-Palmer. I see a few books, but they appear to be mostly autobiographical. Trying to find the clinics I've had only some success with. (My favorite video is below). Any favorites of hers which can be done without attending a clinic? She looks awesome.


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## Cammey

*Lesson 7: More of the Same - but good news*

Sunday’s lesson was almost a replica of Saturday’s lesson, minus the divergence that occurred due to the spook, just while focusing on different things and with a number of small tweaks:



Dragon was calmer - not quite as downright sleepy as I’ve seen her, but also not a wound up ball of energy. I’m getting to the point where I have some insight into how our day is likely to go just by what she looks like tacking up.


There was no major spook. We did have a tiny little stutter-step spook but she immediately seemed to think better of it. 


I was riding her in her competition bit for the first time - which is a show-jumping elevator bit, instead of either the snaffle or the low-port grazer curb bit I’ve used before.


We threw in an occasional halt-and-stand at various points somewhat randomly throughout the lesson - both ‘Halt at A’ and ‘Halt Now’. I learned with her horses Jill will often cue with the seat action half a moment _before_ the rein action starts, which is part of the reason Dragon will often be so responsive to seat aids. We worked on getting my seat at the halt just right - pulling up and in a little with my body (hard to describe) rather than just leaning back with relaxed legs (which could also be western jog), and making sure my calves stay well away from Dragon’s sides so she can’t misinterpret my halt as a half-halt. I’m realizing the aids for ‘western jog’ from trot, and ‘half halt to collection’ from trot and a full-out halt from trot are… well, western/collection aren’t similar to each other, but both share similarities with the halt. We worked on getting straight off halt-from-trot and trot-from-halt without going through the other speeds. Ironically, I find her easier to halt from the trot then from the walk.


We started actually working on keeping the proper diagonal in addition to everything else. This is now MUCH easier since the basics of posting trot are now locking themselves into my muscle memory and require far less conscious attention (I’m still sparing a little attention to be sure my hands stay very steady and I apply the right amount of leg to keep from falling in on turns, but the basic motion can now be put on auto-pilot without falling off rhythm). 


But really, the most exciting news was at the end of the lesson: *Dragon might be available for a quarter lease!* Jill mentioned that she doesn’t typically lease out to beginners at my level, but she has appreciated my attention to detail and the rate at which I’m progressing, so (with some caveats and discussion) she’s open to it. I suspect (though she did not say), now knowing that Dragon tends to be more of an energy-ball when stabled, that my ability to handle a serious spook may also have played a role - as I do appreciate it’s not something to be unaware of leasing her or run into the first time when Jill isn’t there. It’s one thing to say ‘this horse finds something to spook at when energetic and bored’ - it’s another thing to realize that horse-teleportation can be involved. (A nickname my Denver friend group has for jumping spooks that happen so suddenly you only consciously realize what’s going on as you’re coming down). 

This isn’t a sure thing yet. As I mentioned it almost seems like there’s an experience chain amongst the students, and me getting to lease Dragon is dependent on the person above me (who recently won blue riding Dragon in her latest H/J comp) feeling ready to try out one of the greener horses (Cricket - who’s apparently a polite dream to ride, won 4th in the same H/J comp with a different rider while only being about a month off-the-track, but is still overall very inexperienced) and split her half-lease between the two. Jill thinks this setup would be better for her training-wise at this stage - but needs to see if she agrees. By the sounds of it a lot of students are shuffling around as some new horses have become available at the most experienced end (I got to see the brand-new OTTB Kitty’s very first student tack-up on Sunday) and everyone is trying to lock in their winter plans.

So we’ll see how it all comes down - but I’m hopeful.


----------



## tinyliny

Well done! that is so exciting. you have a real lucky star.


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## Cammey

tinyliny said:


> Well done! that is so exciting. you have a real lucky star.


I admit it: I danced around like an idiot in my car most of the drive home. 

It would only be 1-day-a-week (I was kinda hoping for two) - but I am giddy and seriously hoping it will work out.


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## Cammey

*Harry D. Chamberlin - Riding and Schooling Horses*

*Overview*


> The correct principles of equation and horse training are in themselves simple and well-defined, and easily within the comprehension of any intelligent mind. Unfortunately, these principles are so difficult to find in the mass of literature on equestrian subjects, and so often intermingled with inaccurate and abstruse statements, that the most earnest student in his search for them is frequently discouraged.
> 
> Moreover, the precepts set forth by some of the most able authors of former times, are so tersely expressed, and presuppose so much equestrian knowledge, that their full meaning and importance are difficult to grasp unless the reader has much practical experience.


This quote includes the first paragraph and a half from the book’s Preface. Much as with my last review - I feel this does a very good job of summarizing the author’s intent.

To further emphasize that this book really is suitable for a novice, the author continues:



> It may be of interest to the reader to know that every page of the manuscript was submitted to an inexperienced horsewoman, in order to ascertain whether she could understand every point in the book, and could put each step into practice. In any case where she was unable to follow the book in theory or in practice, that part was rewritten until it was entirely clear.


With that approach in mind, the author walks through each area he wishes to educate the reader on, with topics well summed-up with a chapter listing:



 *The Seat* - This covers the foundations of riding posture. This includes briefly touching on confirmation of the saddle, different opinions of proper seat (and why the author feels his superior) and an introduction to the mechanics of why the seat works as it does. 


 *How to Learn and Ride the Forward Seat* - Here the author describes his concept for the foundations for ‘how to learn to ride’ starting with four steps: 1. Confidence, 2. Relaxation, 3. Good Seat in the Saddle, 4. Quiet Hands. The chapter proposes an approach and method of working on each of these in order, with a few exercises. Lest this sound too basic, this covers maintaining the seat for everything from the walk up into the racing gallop.


 *The Horse’s Personality* - This is a foundational overview of horse psychology and the principals of horse learning, along with advisement on the appropriate way to handle horse behavior. He takes a fairly moderate and pragmatic approach - generally advising consistency and gentleness but with occasional stern discipline for outright misbehavior. 


 *The Aids* - Detailed discussion of the proper use of the aids - mostly speaking at length about developing ‘good’ and ‘educated’ hands, more complex uses for the reins (5 different variations ‘rein effects’), developing collection, lightness, dealing with horses that refuse to accept the bit, and several other topics. He also briefly touches on the legs and weight - but most of the chapter is very rein-focused. 


 *Bits* - This is an incredibly short chapter which mostly discusses a few key points - snaffle bits only should be used for colts, other bits are good for more experienced riders and specific sports (with some detail), and curb its should be at 45 degrees. This is one of the more opinionated chapters in the text.


 *Marks of a Trained Mount* - This chapter describes what makes a good mount in the author’s view: Calmness, Long Low Strides, Boldness, Relaxation and Suppleness - along with a view on how each is obtained through training.


 *Jumping* - This is a very detailed analysis on the mechanics of jumping for both horse and rider, along with practical instructions on how to perform a jump. This is by far the most technical and picture-heavy set of instructions in the text. 



*Thoughts*
I really love this book. I do not feel comfortable declaring anything a ‘favorite’ book at this point given I’ve now read only 4 books on equestrianism in total, but this is definitely a ‘right book, right time’ for me in my personal journey.

For a beginner (or perhaps novice) rider the book lays out incredibly clear instructions to the fundamental question of ‘how to ride’. While I wouldn’t want to try to self teach from it (or any book) it’s clear that the author at least considered the possibility that someone would attempt to take his instructions directly from text to put into practice. The book is written to be pragmatically comprehensive while including just enough theory to understand the _why_ of things.

I also found it _surprisingly readable_ especially given its publishing date in 1947. The author has an opinionated wit - and while he at times is somewhat prone to rants, his rants and opinions are clearly identified as such and he happily names names as to the people with differing views whom he disagrees with. 

For me personally this book did a very good job reinforcing things I have already been learning, filling in gaps that have occurred in my knowledge due to the rate I’m moving through things, and gave me some insight into what is coming up. Specifically, his explanation in the first sixteen pages, which go over details of balance in the seat, helped me quite a bit in finding where I need to be in posting trot to avoid getting ‘behind the horse’ as well as giving me a foundation to use generally for finding balance in the seat. His explanation of the ‘rein effects’ proved immediately useful in working on getting Dragon to stay on the rail and turn properly and just generally understanding how to get our corners to work better besides just trying to position with my legs. The chapter on jumping looks _incredibly_ useful and has provided me a lot more context for when I eventually approach that. 

Now, were I to say anything to dissuade someone from reading this book, it would be this: This text is squarely aimed at the beginner/novice in an English riding style, and I doubt terribly likely to be interesting or useful to anyone who has hit the ‘intermediate’ level or higher. While there are a few key illustrations to demonstrate concepts (which I found to be entirely sufficient) the majority of the ‘good parts’ are text-only and only likely to benefit you if you can turn the written word into practical application.

But overall, I am very thankful to @bsms for recommending this one - it is already proving incredibly helpful.


----------



## Cammey

*A Confession/Update: On fitness and a little indulgence*

Well, it’s been a month since I decided to try to start up my fitness routine. So far, out of the possible 5 weeks I’ve made it only _twice_.

One week I missed due to work-travel - that was basically unavoidable. The other two (last week and this week) I am missing due to trying to recover from being sick. Last week on gym day I was completely laid out - it was at the height of my illness and I was getting winded going up and down stairs. This week I could probably manage some light cardio, but I want to be incredibly conservative and recovery-focused going into what will hopefully be a week filled with lessons.

Regardless, it hasn’t been a great start. I’ve even gained about 2 lbs (real weight gain, not water) in the past two months or so… so this ‘going the wrong way’ is going to need to get some correction from diet before it becomes an issue. 

But in better news: Amanda (my recent climbing partner who has been dealing with injuries) has mentioned that she’s interested in trying to start back up at the gym again. My old schedule used to be 1x a week climbing with her, 1x a week cross-training at the gym with her (rarely 2x if the rock gym closed before we were suitably exhausted), and then 1x a week climbing with Dave (my other partner who moved to the other side of the country). My new ‘replacement’ schedule is 
looking like 2x lessons a week, 1x lease-time a week, and 1x gym a week - which takes me right about to where I’d like to be in terms of amount of fitness for the time being.

Amanda is also talking about possibly taking up riding lessons herself. She actually has some years doing some very light trail riding (which she’s not sure if she wants to count as ‘experience’ or not since most of it was the guided-trail type) but would like to get her riding skills up to the point of being able to do things with our equestrian friends out in Denver if the opportunity arises - which it may well next fall. 

Given how different her goals are from mine I’m not sure if my stable would be a good fit for her (and have told her as much). It’s also a fair bit of a drive (it’d be 30-45 minutes from her) and I know she’s dealing with similar schedule limitations to myself. Jill’s lesson calendar is also obnoxiously full. So we’ll look into that. I also might see if it’d be OK for her to watch a lesson of mine so she’d have some idea what she’d be getting into (and then hey, maybe I could also get a little filming). 

In other fun news: Since I’m looking at trying to get a bunch of lessons in next week, I needed more than two sets of breeches in total (or I’d be doing laundry an awful lot). Ever since I started this I had fallen a little in love with the Piper full-seat breeches with paisley silicon grips in deep plum on the SmartPak site as recommend by @NavigatorsMom. Up to this point I’ve been buying mostly very inexpensive starter stuff. I’ve been very pleased with the gear from TuffRider (specifically the Low-Rise Starter Breeches which I’ve been using up to this point). They’re delightfully easy to wash/dry, they’ve been holding up well, and they’re moderately flattering - but they’re also hardly anything flashy/fashionable/interesting and the kneepads are actually _more slippery_ than the rest of the pant due to being a sort of soft felt. The Piper breeches were not bank-breaking while still being a bit more _fun_.

They also definitely fit a little tighter than the TuffRider Starter Breeches in the exact same size - and at 5’9” I perhaps should have considered the ‘tall’ instead of the regular (though regular does work). The TuffRiders are a little loose on me, whereas the Piper Breeches in the same size are almost a hair tight. If I could size each perfectly I’d probably go down half a size in the TuffRider and up half a size in the Piper - both work through. 

A bit more sensibly, I also bought one pair of TuffRider Breeches (the regular kind) in Smoke and a pair of Riding Sport Knee-Patch Breeches in Plum. I just want to try out some diversity in my day-to-day working breeches. This also brings me up to 5 pairs of Breeches which I think is a saner number of pairs to have if I’m going to be using them 3+ times a week. This means missing one laundry day won’t be a crisis.


----------



## greentree

IME, those riding sport breeches run WAY small. It has been more than a few years since I tried them, though!


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## Cammey

greentree said:


> IME, those riding sport breeches run WAY small. It has been more than a few years since I tried them, though!


Good to know! Possibly should have asked ahead of time. Oh well. Given their price vs. the cost of returning them I may just end up with something a bit too small for me for a while (unless it's _absurdly_ small). I'll see how bad it is when it gets delivered on Monday.


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## Hondo

Cammey said:


> Regardless, it hasn’t been a great start. I’ve even gained about 2 lbs (real weight gain, not water) in the past two months or so… so this ‘going the wrong way’ is going to need to get some correction from diet before it becomes an issue.


I'll make a couple of comments as a way of subscribing.

First, it has been both my understanding and experience that when a training program is first begun a weight gain early on is to be expected, even though the waist line and other measurements may decrease. The explanation given is that muscle is denser than fat and increases in muscle mass take place more rapidly early on than fat burning.

Later on as the increase in muscle mass tapers off and the fat burning increases due to the larger muscle mass, the loss in fat becomes much larger than the gain in muscle. That is given as one primary reason for discouragement at the onset of a workout program. 

The suggestion is to stay off the scale for the first month or two and just use the tape measure on body measurements. Or simply notice how much looser clothing is beginning to fit.

Second, going back a ways to a quote by @gottatrot



gottatrot said:


> Something that has helped me is watching videos of cross country riding and seeing how those riders keep a secure seat.


This took me back to 1984 when I read a book titled "Inner Skiing". The author, who was a ski instructor believed that early on too many words could confound and delay learning. He believed that kids seemed to learn best early on by what he termed "gawking" which he described as watching with both eyes and mouth wide open and more importantly with the mind wide open. He believed that under those conditions that the information seemed to almost travel straight from the skier's muscles and into the students muscles.

Words he believed required an active left hemisphere which got in the way of the needed right hemisphere.

He later quipped that it seemed provident that children learned to walk before they learned to talk as otherwise they might not ever learn to walk with all the contradictory information entering their minds.


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## Cammey

Hondo said:


> I'll make a couple of comments as a way of subscribing.
> 
> First, it has been both my understanding and experience that when a training program is first begun a weight gain early on is to be expected, even though the waist line and other measurements may decrease. The explanation given is that muscle is denser than fat and increases in muscle mass take place more rapidly early on than fat burning.
> 
> Later on as the increase in muscle mass tapers off and the fat burning increases due to the larger muscle mass, the loss in fat becomes much larger than the gain in muscle. That is given as one primary reason for discouragement at the onset of a workout program.
> 
> The suggestion is to stay off the scale for the first month or two and just use the tape measure on body measurements. Or simply notice how much looser clothing is beginning to fit.


Ah it would be awesome if I gained 2 lbs of muscle in these past 2 months, or even if I could discount some of the gain to swelling due to first-working out. Sadly, I doubt 2 times to the gym and the light/moderate cardio of riding is sufficient to result in much in the way of muscle gain (given that gaining a pound of muscle when I'm actively climbing and weightlifting is challenging). I'm not fussing too much about it, but I've been watching this slowly creep on, half-pound by half-pound. I'm pretty sure this is my irresponsibility more than anything else. 

That said, it probably would be a good idea to do measurement tracking again. I've always found it a bit more arduous (I used to try to track body fat % estimates as well as weight) but it's a good way to keep myself honest. I find that skin tightening tends to follow weight loss with a bit of a lag and that the scale, used as a tool, really can be a good way to get an idea of measurement so long as you don't get too off put by its normal fluctuations. 

Right now I'm 5'9" and 180-185ish lbs and seem about in the middle of size 34 for riding pants (and am wearing 12/14 in US sizing). In my 'athletic' build I was floating around ~160-165lbs and a US size 8 (so ~30ish riding pant I'd guess). To me, that's is pretty near my perfect body - even though a BMI chart would put it at the absolute max of my healthy range. But it's also a significant composition change from where I am - to hit that I'd have to lose more than 20lbs of fat and then put some muscle back on. 

I'm honestly struggling a little in figuring out what I want to do fitness-wise with riding. I have an awful lot of options. I'm leaning slightly towards focusing on cutting weight for now to get back to that 160-165 zone while working heavily on cardio and trying to avoid muscle loss, then looking to see if I need to do any building/recomp once I'm there (I do not like the crazy bulk/cut stuff - I am going for function over form here). On the other hand I may just take the slow and steady road and try to work on everything at once - including rebuilding some climbing muscle because not having it is driving me a little nuts right now, never mind that I'm not using it all the time. Yes, this will slow visible progress on any given item to a snail's pace - but I'm not starting in an awful spot and really what I do want/need is moderate gains in every area. 

I'm indecisive and not even completely sure what my goals are at this point, which is making figuring out how to get there awfully hard. I'm kind of flailing in 'do something' mode. But I do know that _gaining_ weight definitely isn't where I want to go - thus my self-chastisement. 



Hondo said:


> Second, going back a ways to a quote by @gottatrot
> 
> This took me back to 1984 when I read a book titled "Inner Skiing". The author, who was a ski instructor believed that early on too many words could confound and delay learning. He believed that kids seemed to learn best early on by what he termed "gawking" which he described as watching with both eyes and mouth wide open and more importantly with the mind wide open. He believed that under those conditions that the information seemed to almost travel straight from the skier's muscles and into the students muscles.
> 
> Words he believed required an active left hemisphere which got in the way of the needed right hemisphere.
> 
> He later quipped that it seemed provident that children learned to walk before they learned to talk as otherwise they might not ever learn to walk with all the contradictory information entering their minds.


There are lots of different ways to learn. I tend to try a lot of them. Watching something performed in detail definitely is an extremely valuable one - I wouldn't be as far as I am right now were it not for youtube. That said, I also feel that the ability to take verbal instructions and apply them is a skill I treasure and benefit a lot from. A lot of people are more visual learners - if they can't see it, their minds don't really form an image of how something works. I've always been kind of the opposite - I want to understand _how_ something works intellectually and from there I can understand what I'm seeing. I'm a bit of an oddball for me. 

The single biggest thing I really focusing on in riding right now is really trying to make changes I am told to make in lessons (implementing corrections) and not allowing myself to get 'lazy' in riding. I'm also trying to be sure I don't have any intellectual holes that might get in my way. I've been shocked how far that has gotten me how quickly. 

I know I also just need more time physically practicing - especially with posting trot and the details thereof - but my plan for that will really kick in starting in December.


----------



## Hondo

When I lived in the SF Bay Area and was into fitness I had my body composition weighed in water and calculated at UC Davis. Now that woke me up. It was NOT good.


----------



## gottatrot

Cammey said:


> To me, that's is pretty near my perfect body - even though a BMI chart would put it at the absolute max of my healthy range.


BMI charts are not accurate for athletes. I've read a lot about how they need different calculations for people who have a higher percentage of muscle. They do say body fat percentage is better, but that is very difficult to calculate. We bought some calipers once to try for fun, but it didn't seem those were very accurate either. 

According to BMI charts, serious weight lifters with extremely low body fat percentages are very obese.
I've been a runner for many years, and my BMI puts me in the middle range for normal weight. To me, that means people should consider me an average build. But most people tell me I'm thin. That's because I weigh more than I appear due to my body composition that is higher in muscle. 

My sister is also a serious runner, but she is in the middle of the overweight range according to BMI. If you look at her, you would say she is very muscular and has a small amount of extra fat. She regularly races half marathons and is extremely fit. Her body type puts on heavier muscle than mine, and she does over eat. According to BMI she could lose 15 or 20 lbs. But she really is healthy and only 10 lbs would take off all the extra fat she carries. 
I heavily discount BMI when it comes to health unless you are a sedentary person.


----------



## Hondo

Are yall familiar with underwater weighing for body composition? All air has to be exhaled along with any bubbles in the swimsuit if any, and then the weight is used to calculate the body density from 'Ole Archimedes Principle then reverse engineered into muscle/body fat.

I see there's some stuff on the web about it called Hydrostatic Weighing. My experience was pre-internet but it looks like a person could do it themselves in a pool. Maybe.

I know when I had it done they used a measurement of the water volume to determine my body volume. That number might be arrived at in a large carefully marked bath tub. Might need a snorkel to breath through until the water settled down.

That procedure bypasses all the charts and gives as close to the true facts as possible.

Don't know that it's all that necessary but it gave me a baseline to work on back then. Waay back then.


----------



## Cammey

Hondo said:


> Are yall familiar with underwater weighing for body composition? All air has to be exhaled along with any bubbles in the swimsuit if any, and then the weight is used to calculate the body density from 'Ole Archimedes Principle then reverse engineered into muscle/body fat.
> 
> I see there's some stuff on the web about it called Hydrostatic Weighing. My experience was pre-internet but it looks like a person could do it themselves in a pool. Maybe.
> 
> I know when I had it done they used a measurement of the water volume to determine my body volume. That number might be arrived at in a large carefully marked bath tub. Might need a snorkel to breath through until the water settled down.
> 
> That procedure bypasses all the charts and gives as close to the true facts as possible.
> 
> Don't know that it's all that necessary but it gave me a baseline to work on back then. Waay back then.


I'm familiar with it, but haven't had it done myself. I've got some friends who are more serious athletes than I've ever been who have themselves checked semi-regularly (a couple times a year) - specifically a boxer-turned-runner who is actually worried about having unhealthily low body fat due to her program. But personally I've never had the right combination of desire + opportunity coinciding at the same time to go get one done. I've looked into it enough to know that there's a place that does it less than an hour from here, and another place about an hour out that does DEXA scans surprisingly cheap. 

I'd be incredibly curious to see what I look like when I _think_ I'm athletic. There's a slight temptation to get one to do a before-and-after type deal (because those are always fun)... but if I'm going to do that then I need to be sure fitness really is going to be a priority so I can see the results like I'd want. 




gottatrot said:


> BMI charts are not accurate for athletes. I've read a lot about how they need different calculations for people who have a higher percentage of muscle. They do say body fat percentage is better, but that is very difficult to calculate. We bought some calipers once to try for fun, but it didn't seem those were very accurate either.
> 
> According to BMI charts, serious weight lifters with extremely low body fat percentages are very obese.
> I've been a runner for many years, and my BMI puts me in the middle range for normal weight. To me, that means people should consider me an average build. But most people tell me I'm thin. That's because I weigh more than I appear due to my body composition that is higher in muscle.
> 
> My sister is also a serious runner, but she is in the middle of the overweight range according to BMI. If you look at her, you would say she is very muscular and has a small amount of extra fat. She regularly races half marathons and is extremely fit. Her body type puts on heavier muscle than mine, and she does over eat. According to BMI she could lose 15 or 20 lbs. But she really is healthy and only 10 lbs would take off all the extra fat she carries.
> 
> I heavily discount BMI when it comes to health unless you are a sedentary person.


Amen to that. Yeah, I've never had great results with the calpers - personally when I try to do estimates I use the girth measurement method as shown here though I tend to just pull the formulas into a sheet (which I steal from here). I've played with different formulas but this is my favorite. Not 100% sure how accurate or correct it is - but it can monitor trends so that helps. It'd be very interesting to do a comparison between this and a more accurate method. 

For the most part though I've just been playing around with things like that and using them as metrics to try to track progress and to not get discouraged as I am recomping and the results aren't terribly visible.

Part of this is also a little bit of hold-over mindset. As a climber, it really was about dropping _weight_ - not for fitness, but because _every 10 lbs I weigh is another 10 lbs I have to put on my fingertips on the wall_. My fitness tracking was constantly about comparing my pulldown/row weights to my bodyweight - what fraction of my weight can I do sets with? My ultimate goal (which I never quite reached) was to do sets of pullups. At one point I lost ~30 pounds - including a lot of my climbing muscle (sedentary+crash dieting) - and afterwards I came back and climbed half a grade _better_ than my prior best almost immediately (after only about 2 weeks of re-gaining grip strength). It was a brutal realization - but the truth was in the ratings.

So right now a lot is just trying to figure out how that matches up to riding - and specifically, the sort of competitive H/J or eventing direction that it looks like I'm going in. Purely physically, even on the mend from this brutal whatever-the-heck-it-was illness I'm not finding the basics of things like posting trot (even with heels properly down) or two point too physically tough. With the exception of the day I was _really_ sick, I haven't been too wiped post-lesson (barn chores were another matter entirely). 

So where do I go from here? It's a genuine question I'd love suggestions on. Dropping weight might make it a little easier on _the horses_ especially if I ever ride anything that isn't a 17HH athletic monolith, and I can feel my cardio could use a little rounding out... But really I'm just trying to anticipate what I'm going to need as this gets harder.


----------



## Cammey

*Lesson 8: Collection*

Saturday was an absolutely miserable day weather-wise. We managed to get both drizzle-rained on and snowed on (‘winter mix’) by midway through the lesson. I was surprised Jill didn’t call the lesson off, and am guessing she would have if it had been as bad at the start as it was by the end.

The ground was muddy in a sort of ‘slick’ way from the rainstorm the prior night and it was obvious that Dragon didn’t like the footing, the wind, or the falling/blowing snow. She was neither energetic nor relaxed - just a little nervy from the gate in a somewhat genuine way. Ironically, in her state of being more genuinely concerned about her environment she seemed _less_ interested in looking for something to spook at.

The lesson itself was a much more formal introduction to collecting at the trot - starting with generating impulsion, then straightness, and finally headset. Now, Dragon already has the fundamentals of collection well down, so this was mostly me learning how to _ask_ properly, not as much about how to _develop_ them in a horse (though we spoke about that briefly). 

Impulsion requires an even, steady (though somewhat brisk) pace. Asking for it means both keeping her going forward, but also checking that energy to get a more energetic gait rather than just a faster one. With her the key really is trying to keep things _even_ despite anything else going on (asking for turns being the big one). 

Straightness in the straightaway is actually pretty easy with her - she doesn’t tend to lean against the side rails or anything of the sort, and she honestly seems to me remarkably straight just by nature (or so much training it seems like nature). So ‘straightness’ was more about properly managing turns so that her hind end doesn’t swing out at all and we keep her in the ‘chute’ between my legs and hands when dealing with corners. We’ve been hitting on this for a few lessons now, so the challenging part was more mixing this with the evenness of impulsion and really working to keep her from changing her pace as I asked her to bend around my leg. 

Then we went to headset, which I was warned I’m being utterly spoiled on - because basically any time we get impulsion and then the reins get short enough Dragon just starts assuming you want headset and it’s more a matter of fine tuning. I’ve had her ‘feed the reins back to me’ before as she tries to collect up without me asking her to… so learning to ask for this was mostly about learning to ask for _more_ headset. 

I’m not quite sure what to think of this, but Dragon seemed genuinely calmer in collection. It was like she was focused on what she was doing and it made it easier to ignore anything else happening around us. She put a fair bit of contact on the bit, but she seemed less worried about things. I’m totally unsure what to make of this. 

We worked pretty hard today but to be honest I’m not sure I felt great about it overall. I was soaked through my breeches from drizzle and melted snow, and my (ungloved) hands were unpleasantly chilled. My ankles throughout the lesson were also an utter mess. 

When we got done I rushed a bit to get Dragon untacked and comfortably back under waterproof blanket so that her back would get as little snow on it as possible. She didn’t seem terribly upset and perhaps I was just projecting - but I didn’t want her to be uncomfortable as she cooled down from her workout.


----------



## Cammey

*Lesson 9: Collected/Extended Trot and Winter Plans*

My Sunday morning lesson was cancelled due to miserable weather, but I had one of my extra lessons on Tuesday (since I am off work all this week). Normally I’d be very disappointed missing a lesson - but after the physical misery of Saturday I was actually a little relieved. Even Tuesday mid-day was cold - the winds were biting a bit and the ground had a layer of crunchy soil over the top of it which Dragon seemed quite unhappy with - but at least we weren’t getting rained/snowed on.

This week’s lesson was focused almost entirely on collected trot vs. extended trot. I’ve noticed that Jill often likes to teach in contrasts - getting behind the motion in western jog, then in front of the motion in two-point, in order to find the ‘middle’ in posting for example. It often seems easier to understand one thing by understanding what it is _not_. I’ll be honest - it’s helped me learn much more effectively. Most of the lesson was spent switching between working trot, collected trot, extended trot, and the walk. We also did a bit more halting and some backing work. 

It was also the first time we were really using dressage letters to give instructions on where to go, as well as finding the ‘quarter line’ in the arena. There was a lot of ‘Extended trot K to H on the quarter line’ and ‘halt at E’. I’m starting to learn my way around a little (why the heck aren’t the letters in any sort of logical order? I am going to have to do a little research).

In terms of other topics: So in the posting trot I’ve developed a bad habit of using the reins too much to steer rather than the seat. This has included letting my inside rein cross her mane on turns a bit to help keep her from falling in. Right now, this has been working perfectly - because Dragon has guessed what I want based on context and has been giving it to me in response to those cues. This led me to think I was doing it properly because my results have been good - but apparently it’s wrong, and I’m trying to make up for insufficient pressure via my inside leg by using my inside rein instead. I’ve been warned this probably won’t work if we put me on another horse and also is going to make it harder to cue for more advanced movements later, so it was time to get it fixed. So as I was switching around the gaits we also worked on getting that habit out of me and getting me to steer more correctly with the seat (wherein ‘correctly’ seems to be ‘as much as possible’). I’m starting to get a lot more detailed corrections about things like rein length on each side, hand positioning, timing of action, amount of leg at each turn, etc. Now that my trot-posting is pretty (but still not perfectly) reliable my world suddenly seems a lot more nuanced and complicated.

Much like getting a paper back covered in detailed red-marks can actually be a very _good sign_ that your work was deemed worthy of detailed review, I’m actually taking this as a fairly positive change. It’s probably going to be tricky to manage to incorporate all the feedback in one lesson. To be honest: I remember about half of it and will be happy if I can remember about a quarter of it by next lesson - specifically, not crossing my reins over, sufficiently using my legs, and how to generate collected vs extended trot. If I can still do all that by next week I’ll be a very happy girl. 

On the plus side, I think my ankles were half decent for most of the lesson - when I periodically checked myself I never caught them having crept up the way I did in prior lessons. My legs also were a little more tired, which was probably also a good sign.

I have one more ‘extra’ lesson on Friday. So I will have Friday, Saturday, and Sunday lessons back-to-back. This will be a true test of where my fitness is. On the plus side, I seem to be seriously on the mend from my illness (finally!) though I’m still not 100%. 

Also: It’s now confirmed, *I will have a quarter-lease on Dragon from December 1st - March 31st*. We’ll be finalizing this weekend and I’ll be working out times shortly thereafter. We will still need to confirm if it’s a 1 or 2 days a week by looking at her schedule and when other people want to ride her. There are two other quarter-leases and a few lessons (like mine) where she’s the only one who can teach them - but given that apparently the slot(s) I want are not usually in high demand (I want any weekdays except maybe wednesday, starting after 6 or 7 pm and going until barn close at 9 or 10) I may well get two by just seeing what everyone else requests and grabbing two evenings no one else wants. Honestly, I am also *more* than happy to take her _after_ other people have ridden on her in lessons the same day and do something ‘evening only’. I get less of an energy-ball because she’s already been worked? Yes please. It’s not like I’m going to be taking her out hacking mid-winter up here. 

We’ll be talking about details more during this weekend. I’m incredibly excited and only a _tiny_ bit nervous.


----------



## gottatrot

Great news about leasing Dragon!


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## egrogan

Happy you'll get to lease Dragon! Starting a free lease is how I eventually ended up buying my mare :wink:


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## Cammey

gottatrot said:


> Great news about leasing Dragon!


Thank you!



egrogan said:


> Happy you'll get to lease Dragon! Starting a free lease is how I eventually ended up buying my mare :wink:


Is the story of that somewhere on here? I'd love to read it. I've gone through a good chunk, but not all, of your journal and I don't recall seeing it there (since it seems to start up a bit later).


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## egrogan

Cammey said:


> Thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> Is the story of that somewhere on here? I'd love to read it. I've gone through a good chunk, but not all, of your journal and I don't recall seeing it there (since it seems to start up a bit later).


Good question...I actually couldn't remember how much I wrote about Isabel before I bought her, so you sent me searching back through a few years of Horse Forum posts.

I didn't post on here very much before I had a horse, but I did remember asking for a few opinions when I needed to make the decision about whether or not I was going to buy her- and most people told me not to, for many good reasons- but I'm lucky things worked out well for us anyway!

This is the thread: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/advice-needed-thinking-logically-about-purchasing-128042/

Also funny to remember that I was thinking seriously about building a barn at home then- my husband and I have prioritized other things so that hasn't materialized yet...


----------



## bsms

Not sure what I'm about to write is true, but I'll offer it up anyways and let you decide.

When horses are allowed to trot or canter at the speed they choose, they automatically settle into the pace that gives them the lowest metabolic rate:








​ 
The metabolic rate increases under a rider, but the most efficient metabolic speed seems to stay the same - which suggests it is a result of how a given horse is built. When younger and fitter, I ran a mile under 5:30, and I can force myself to jog a 10 minute mile, but both take conscious effort on my part. If I listen to tunes in my mp3 player, I'll do about a 7:30 mile. Or at 58, maybe jog a half mile at a 7:30/mile pace. That has been consistent for me since I started at 13. It has only slowed slightly with the increasing weight and decreasing fitness of the years.

It seems to me an extended trot is when the horse goes faster at a trot than is metabolically efficient, and a 'collected' trot is when they go slower. In the former, the extra energy is turned into speed, and with the latter it is turned into lift, or a more elevated motion.

For turning, there are two ways a horse can turn - straight and leaning. If you get on all fours and try to turn "straight", you will shorten your strides, particularly on the inside. With your knees and palms following the same track around a turn, you will go slower - but the vertical axis of your body will remain straight up and down.

However, if you try to turn faster and tighter, you will not be able to remain "straight". You can initially lighten your front and shove your hands a little sideways, turning your front end faster. If you keep increasing the speed and tightness of turn, then you will need to drop down and shove hard sideways. The book that pointed this out to me was written by a professor of mechanical engineering who also enjoyed riding horses. He pointed out that barrel racing horses do not collect to turn because that would make the turns too slow. They lower at the withers, typically.










It is the equine equivalent of this:










This photo is over 100 years old, but it shows a balance very similar to a modern athlete, tilted below the hips and vertical above:








​
Left on their own, horses rarely turn straight. I suspect if you measured metabolic rate versus turning, one would find a straight turn costs more, and so does the digging in turn. The "Momma Bear" turn would be to lighten the front a little and shove a little sideways. We don't have to lighten our front end since we only have two feet, but humans almost never turn "straight" either. If you tied a rope to a pole, and jogged around the pole with your shoulders forming a straight line with the rope, that would be "straight". And if you had not trained to do it, you would find it hard to do well.

None of this changes what you are learning. It is just that I jogged for 40 years before taking up riding and I find how I move and feel jogging correlates well to how I see horses move. I think it provides an insight into what the horse feels and how he adjusts when we ask him to move a certain way.


----------



## tinyliny

that suggestion to get on all fours and try turning at different speeds creates a really funny mental image. humans are incredibly ungainly on all fours. when I was a 5 or 6 year old, I was so horse crazy I used to run all around the house on all fours, 'cantering' quite nimbly. now? fuggedaboutit!


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## Hondo

tinyliny said:


> humans are incredibly ungainly on all fours.


I saw nothing ungainly in that video! lol I'm sure you were not referring to it.


----------



## tinyliny

you would have nightmares if you saw ME try that.!


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## gottatrot

Great post by @bsms.

Tinyliny, that video is just hilarious!! I could totally see myself as a child trying something like that, attempting to understand how horses jump. How does she not sprain her wrist or something? She must have just the right technique. I am sure she will have good form falling off horses too, preventing injuries. She could probably just land on all fours and bound off.


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## Uze

I had a lot of fun reading your journal the past few days. It's awesome to be able to see the start of someones horse journey, because that's one thing you can only do once  I'll never forget my horsey beginning, and I'm sure you won't either. Congratulations on getting to lease Dragon, by the way. I've leased many horses in my life (One of them being an OTTB, who I was very much in love with) and in my opinion it's a fantastic thing to do. You don't have the burden of full ownership yet but you are able to have more freedom to do as you please instead of only waiting on lessons every time. I think quarter leasing her is going to be a good thing for you. Can't wait for future updates


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## greentree

My BFF and I understood how a bit worked , because we would tie a string to a pencil, and make my younger(but significantly larger) brother carry us around on his back with a BIT in his mouth!!


----------



## egrogan

greentree said:


> My BFF and I understood how a bit worked , because we would tie a string to a pencil, and make my younger(but significantly larger) brother carry us around on his back with a BIT in his mouth!!


I used a similar method to learn how a lunge whip worked :wink: My now 30-year-old brother still likes to tell that story...


----------



## Cammey

egrogan said:


> Good question...I actually couldn't remember how much I wrote about Isabel before I bought her, so you sent me searching back through a few years of Horse Forum posts.
> 
> 
> I didn't post on here very much before I had a horse, but I did remember asking for a few opinions when I needed to make the decision about whether or not I was going to buy her- and most people told me not to, for many good reasons- but I'm lucky things worked out well for us anyway!
> 
> 
> This is the thread: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/advice-needed-thinking-logically-about-purchasing-128042/
> 
> 
> Also funny to remember that I was thinking seriously about building a barn at home then- my husband and I have prioritized other things so that hasn't materialized yet...



Thank you! It was lovely to read about the debate here and get some insight into how that all came together. 





bsms said:


> For turning, there are two ways a horse can turn - straight and leaning. If you get on all fours and try to turn "straight", you will shorten your strides, particularly on the inside. With your knees and palms following the same track around a turn, you will go slower - but the vertical axis of your body will remain straight up and down.
> 
> 
> However, if you try to turn faster and tighter, you will not be able to remain "straight". You can initially lighten your front and shove your hands a little sideways, turning your front end faster. If you keep increasing the speed and tightness of turn, then you will need to drop down and shove hard sideways. The book that pointed this out to me was written by a professor of mechanical engineering who also enjoyed riding horses. He pointed out that barrel racing horses do not collect to turn because that would make the turns too slow. They lower at the withers, typically.
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> Left on their own, horses rarely turn straight. I suspect if you measured metabolic rate versus turning, one would find a straight turn costs more, and so does the digging in turn. The "Momma Bear" turn would be to lighten the front a little and shove a little sideways. We don't have to lighten our front end since we only have two feet, but humans almost never turn "straight" either. If you tied a rope to a pole, and jogged around the pole with your shoulders forming a straight line with the rope, that would be "straight". And if you had not trained to do it, you would find it hard to do well.
> 
> 
> None of this changes what you are learning. It is just that I jogged for 40 years before taking up riding and I find how I move and feel jogging correlates well to how I see horses move. I think it provides an insight into what the horse feels and how he adjusts when we ask him to move a certain way.



Thank you for the detailed commentary - it gives me something to think on. That said, while I very much agree with your point, I might be starting with a bit of a different assumption about what we're trying to do. 

I strongly suspect that convincing a horse to turn straight-up with a bent body is much more for our convenience and possibly their own athletic development rather than their natural optimum solution (which I agree with what you’ve wrote is probably a bit sideways). Much of what we ask horses to do for us doesn’t have anything to do with the simplest/most natural movements and has a lot more to do with either what works for us or what develops their musculature and athleticism. Some of it seems to be inspired by the beautiful movements horses will make when playing (just as dance is inspired by joyful movements in humans) but the way we train them is more discipline than nature. 

Heck, if you watch high-level eventing you will see that the same horse that turns perfectly straight-up/body-bent in the dressage arena then proceeds to turn slightly bent but still leaning when they get to the cross country phase - not to the extremes of a barrel racer, but still quite noticeably. The ability to bend their body appears to help them make the turns to line up for jumps, but the optimum solution is still to lean into turns. Your logic that it's most optimum seems completely logical to me. 

The thing is I don’t really see a problem with the fact we're training/working a less optimal route. Most of what I do when I exercise or show off my athleticism isn’t strictly confined to the motions that I do every day or find most natural/easiest. This may be a little different for jogging/running - but simply put push-ups, ab-crunches, and stretching aren’t motions I’d do in my day-to-day to be efficient - they’re things that develop my strength so that when I go to do body-focused activities I’m more fit/supple.

That’s sort of the context in which I see most arena training. It’s a combination of developing the horse, rider, and horse/rider communication. I need to get her off my leg not because falling in on turns is unnatural or fundamentally wrong - but because doing it ‘the hard way’ develops her muscles for other things and also if I want to get her lined up on a jump I need to be sure I can bump both her front/back end into line so we go over straight (also because ‘horse ballet’/dressage is something I may eventually be interested in). I don’t really see ‘natural’ as the bar for ‘good’ when it comes to fitness/health. 




tinyliny said:


> that suggestion to get on all fours and try turning at different speeds creates a really funny mental image. humans are incredibly ungainly on all fours. when I was a 5 or 6 year old, I was so horse crazy I used to run all around the house on all fours, 'cantering' quite nimbly. now? fuggedaboutit!


That is… strangely adorable and I’m honestly seriously impressed at her jumping ability. The thought of jumping high enough to get my feet over my head in any circumstance is pretty terrifying. That kid is seriously strong.




Uze said:


> I had a lot of fun reading your journal the past few days. It's awesome to be able to see the start of someones horse journey, because that's one thing you can only do once  I'll never forget my horsey beginning, and I'm sure you won't either. Congratulations on getting to lease Dragon, by the way. I've leased many horses in my life (One of them being an OTTB, who I was very much in love with) and in my opinion it's a fantastic thing to do. You don't have the burden of full ownership yet but you are able to have more freedom to do as you please instead of only waiting on lessons every time. I think quarter leasing her is going to be a good thing for you. Can't wait for future updates


Thank you! 

Yeah, right now the quarter-lease is really just so that I have more time to practice and really work on developing my riding ability. It’s still going to be pretty structured and I’m basically going to be doing lesson work in my off-time so we can focus on learning new stuff in lessons rather than just watching me try to figure out how to do things right. I’m very green to even really be leasing at this point (though I *do* finally feel ‘ready’ in the sense I’m no longer worried about the basics of managing a session by myself) so I’m quite happy with having a bit of structure and plan for what I should be working on.

My trainer has already asked me if half-leasing is something I will want to look at in the future and I told her that I would probably like to look at it once I get to the level where I’m competing. Eventually I *do* want to lease a horse in a way that will let me take them out and go hacking/trying other things - but I really need to be able to w/t/c reliably and just get a lot more hours on the saddle first. For now it’s really just a way to get more training time in.


----------



## bsms

Cammey said:


> ...Heck, if you watch high-level eventing you will see that the same horse that turns perfectly straight-up/body-bent in the dressage arena then proceeds to turn slightly bent but still leaning when they get to the cross country phase - not to the extremes of a barrel racer, but still quite noticeably. The ability to bend their body...
> 
> ...The thing is I don’t really see a problem with the fact we're training/working a less optimal route...


There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking the horse to work harder to perform a certain way. We do it for fast trots or slow ones, and we are asking the horse to work harder than he otherwise would every time we ride. 

The ability to bend their body is much more questionable. Philippe Karl, in his book, Twisted truths of Modern Dressage, makes the case that horses NEVER bend their bodies (pages 30-32). Photos taken from above the horse, such at this one,








​ 
give reason to doubt any horse bends around our inner leg. That is one of those word pictures helpful for thinking about how we give cues, but harmful if we think the horse actually performs it.








​
We see the part of the horse in front of us and not the part behind. This does not mean a horse cannot turn "straight", just that he doesn't do it the way we pretend he is doing it.

I've also been told, too many times, that a horse who is not turning "straight" is unbalanced and more likely to fall. I've read supposedly authoritative books that claim a horse is not balanced or moving "properly" if it digs in.

I think the more we understand what a horse REALLY does, the better we can feel his motion and know how to ask him and train him.

It is kind of like with collection. If a horse bows its back up, rounding it, then instructions in books to contain the horse between the driving aids and restraining aids make sense. One might even postulate that a circle of energy DOES exist, and that having the horse bounce off the bit helps to do it. But if collection results from a horse moving like this,








​ 
then the energy is not cycling back to the rear, but being used to lift the front. And instead of trapping a horse between the driving and restraining aids, one is asking the horse to move forward and then divert the energy upwards in the front. Instead of squeezing the horse, you are diverting the horse.

That may not change how you and a great many others approach riding. Word pictures help us sometimes and distract us at others, and an image that helps one person might harm another. But for myself, the image of diverting energy upwards rather than holding it back creates a very different attitude and feel.

I don't have any interest in dressage and tend to favor long, flat strides for my horse. But I still find it helpful to think of my horse as having a firm, largely unbending lever for a back, and to think of asking him to change his foot pattern or stride rather than think of me shaping him. When I think of cues as "asking" rather than "controlling", I approach riding and training my horse differently. But if it doesn't help you, PLEASE toss it aside!

Last June, I asked my old college roommate the right way to use a certain piece of tack. "_Out here,_" he replied, "_there is no right way. But I'll show you what works for me._" That is how I feel about HF. I can share what helps me, but I can't promise it will help you.


----------



## tinyliny

gottatrot said:


> Great post by @*bsms* .
> 
> Tinyliny, that video is just hilarious!! I could totally see myself as a child trying something like that, attempting to understand how horses jump. How does she not sprain her wrist or something? She must have just the right technique. I am sure she will have good form falling off horses too, preventing injuries. She could probably just land on all fours and bound off.



well, she probably weighs about 40 lbs , and the footing is soft.

but, . . . as to some points raised by bsms, looking at that last diagram in his post, collection is really achieved by the horse lowering his pelvis. that occurs in part by the tucking under reflex, such as you'd see when the horse is pushing out a big poo, or you've poked him along his belly line. that is the abdominal muscles tightening, and is akin to us engageing our core muslces to lift the front of our pelvis to counter lordosis.
the other part is the horse 'dropping' his hind end , achieved by having greater flexion in the stifle and hock joints. a collapsing of the accordian folds of those stacked joints. the extreme of this is the horse sitting back and rearing.


no, the horse does not bend it's body like you might want to see from a diagram from looking down from above. but, the barrel of the horse DOES move from side to side . it must move somewhat to accomodate the forward movement of the rear legs. it is this swing of the barrel that you get yourself in tune with when you ride at the walk. to 'amplify' a walk, you get to feeling when the barrel swings right, for example. this swinging right means that the left rear leg is reaching forward. if you put YOUR left leg on at just that moment, you are saying 'reach MORE! with that leg" . . . then, if necessaery, you put your right leg on just as the barrel swings left (away from your right leg), and you will be amplifying the forward reach of the right hind leg. 

when you get the hind leg to step bigger, AND you ask the hrose to restrain forward move,ment AND you ask the horse to put a little flex toward the inside with it's jaw, the horse will step not just furhter forward, but will reach a bit more under the center of its' barrel. it will take more weight on that inside hind leg. 

this allows it to become physically able to lift up the inside FRONT (remember, this is at the walk I am talking about, and the walk rythm goes : hind right , front right, hind left, front left . .repeat), and place it more toward the inside, forming an arc, which is part of a turn or a circle. thus the so-called 'bend' on a circle.


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## sarahfromsc

bsms said:


> There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking the horse to work harder to perform a certain way. We do it for fast trots or slow ones, and we are asking the horse to work harder than he otherwise would every time we ride.
> 
> The ability to bend their body is much more questionable. Philippe Karl, in his book, Twisted truths of Modern Dressage, makes the case that horses NEVER bend their bodies (pages 30-32). Photos taken from above the horse, such at this one,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> give reason to doubt any horse bends around our inner leg. That is one of those word pictures helpful for thinking about how we give cues, but harmful if we think the horse actually performs it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> We see the part of the horse in front of us and not the part behind. This does not mean a horse cannot turn "straight", just that he doesn't do it the way we pretend he is doing it.
> 
> I've also been told, too many times, that a horse who is not turning "straight" is unbalanced and more likely to fall. I've read supposedly authoritative books that claim a horse is not balanced or moving "properly" if it digs in.
> 
> I think the more we understand what a horse REALLY does, the better we can feel his motion and know how to ask him and train him.
> 
> It is kind of like with collection. If a horse bows its back up, rounding it, then instructions in books to contain the horse between the driving aids and restraining aids make sense. One might even postulate that a circle of energy DOES exist, and that having the horse bounce off the bit helps to do it. But if collection results from a horse moving like this,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> then the energy is not cycling back to the rear, but being used to lift the front. And instead of trapping a horse between the driving and restraining aids, one is asking the horse to move forward and then divert the energy upwards in the front. Instead of squeezing the horse, you are diverting the horse.
> 
> That may not change how you and a great many others approach riding. Word pictures help us sometimes and distract us at others, and an image that helps one person might harm another. But for myself, the image of diverting energy upwards rather than holding it back creates a very different attitude and feel.
> 
> I don't have any interest in dressage and tend to favor long, flat strides for my horse. But I still find it helpful to think of my horse as having a firm, largely unbending lever for a back, and to think of asking him to change his foot pattern or stride rather than think of me shaping him. When I think of cues as "asking" rather than "controlling", I approach riding and training my horse differently. But if it doesn't help you, PLEASE toss it aside!
> 
> Last June, I asked my old college roommate the right way to use a certain piece of tack. "_Out here,_" he replied, "_there is no right way. But I'll show you what works for me._" That is how I feel about HF. I can share what helps me, but I can't promise it will help you.


Holy crap! That one horse is fat as a pig and couldn't bend around to scratch an itchy spot in its flank!

My horse isn't fat. So when he has an itchy spot on a hind leg, he lifts the hind leg and brings it forward by moving his rib cage so he can reach the itchy back leg with his mouth. If he can do that, he can bend around my leg.

Unless of course I own Gumpy horse and he is just super magical with special bending powers.


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## tinyliny

that horse IS a bit of a sausage, isn't he? 'Gumpy' . do you mean Gumby?


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## sarahfromsc

Yep. That is what I meant to type! The hubster is yapping at me as I try to read/type.....*sighs*


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## bsms

I've never seen a horse as broad as the one in the photo. The rider is Harry Boldt. That picture came from an online source, but he published a book of photos of various dressage training maneuvers. I'm too cheap to buy it since I'm not a dressage kind of guy. Bandit and I have "You won't die walking thru a human neighborhood" training and "Let's leave the trail and walk between all these cactus" training blocks to fill first.

This is a chart on back movement in a book by Hilary Clayton:








​ 
Horses definitely have more lateral bend available than vertical, but I suspect they feel like they are bending around our leg because our leg is near their center of gravity in motion. That's a guess, though. It might be a well trained horse would show more bend laterally. I've known Bandit to scratch his nose with his hind hoof, but I didn't think to look at back curving, even though I was standing next to him at the time.

My apologies to @*Cammey* for derailing her journal. How horses move and balance fascinates me almost as much as tack, and I too often just don't know when to shut up. I'll say this, though: A lot of Bandit's issues with straightness and flexibility are rooted in MY balance and riding, NOT his body or ability. The first time I encountered the term "straightness" in a turn, it was my daughter's riding instructor giving me a lesson when my daughter was sick. Her advice was to use the reins in a certain way with Trooper to help him move straighter. It kind of worked. Several years later, I found with Mia and now Bandit that MY balance is often what pulls my horse off. I was using reins and heels to put a band-aid on a problem my balance was causing.  When I ride balanced - or IF - determines most of my horse's issues.


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## gottatrot

Horses accomplish many things that seem like bending through the barrel by using their legs, necks, shoulders and hindquarters. I agree there is very little bending through the actual spine. I suspect much of what we feel as "bend," is the lengthening and shortening of the "latissimus dorsi" muscles that come back under the front of our saddle.













































Interesting, I just posted some pics of my mare in my journal tonight, showing how the different types of work we did shaped her body.

My mare, Amore is shaped a lot like the horse in that "unbending" dressage photo, and once she was very fat and probably exactly shaped like him. She could still scratch her ear with her hind hoof.

I agree it is not wrong to ask horses to travel in ways that are less efficient, when we are training or asking for athleticism. As long as "less efficient" doesn't mean undue stress on the body - like athletes there are ways to exercise and lift weights that are using the body correctly and without causing harm, and there are ways that cause undue stress on parts that are not designed to handle that load.


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## gottatrot

I've read that one possible secret to Secretariat's speed was an unusually flexible spine. He was able to line up his front and hind end so his motor was always directly behind himself even going around curves at top speed.
Most horses running at you around a curve, you'll see hindquarter skewed off to one side or shoulder. The barrel you pretty much see on both sides of the horse. Check out how much of Secretariat's barrel is on the rail side in the photo below. It's quite possible he had more lateral and up/down flexibility of the spine than is usual. He probably could have done some spectacular dressage.


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## LlamaPacker

Catching up now with posts and see that earlier there was a big concern about weight, which opens up a whole new audience for my latest evangelizing tangent. So excited! Here goes: Cammey, you simply MUST consider what I call the “2-day a week almost-fast-days eating strategy.” Saw it on PBS (re-run from several years ago), read the book by Dr. Mosley (called The Fast Diet), even read a piece about benefits just recently in the Wall Street Journal. Definitely, just the thing for you!

Also called “intermittant fasting”, there is no question but that weight will be lost, but the more important benefits (especially as one ages, which is why I’m doing it over a year now) are all the other things that studies show go along with having significant breaks from eating.

Benefits such as improved blood pressure, improved cholesterol count, lower blood sugars (i.e. less risk of diabetes), lowered IGF-1 (relates to lower risk of cancer), even improved brain function (big worry of aging). How could anyone not want these benefits? Read the book to see what you think of the studies. Seem convincing to me, but then, I enjoyed the book called Ultra-Longevity, too — now do 10 minutes of yoga with meditation daily, hoping to be healthy to 100!

Of course, it does take discipline and willpower and the willingness to feel cranky a couple days a week (my DH says makes him feel too jittery and he works physically too hard, his excuse for cheating often, even though he could certainly use those health benefits even more than me.) The great thing, I think, is that you do get food on the fast days, just not much of it and only twice a day.

This new “eating strategy” allows for a tiny breakfast and tiny dinner on the fast days. I’ve found it easy to do Mon & Thurs. Have a vanilla Ensure, handful of pecans and half an apple for breakfast, lots of flavored water or Coke Zero in-between, then usual "Mediterranean-style" mini-dinner is glass of wine, kalamata olives, feta cheese and crocatini (crackers). Fairly easy for me, as no kids at home and quite enjoyable not to be thinking of meals on those two days for DH. As I said, gives a good excuse to be crabby, although sitting here typing about it puts me in such a better mood! Good luck, whatever you decide to do, great to see that you are working on getting stronger for riding.


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## Cammey

@bsms and @tinyliny

Honestly, both of your posts provide me with a lot to think on (and I’m enjoying this discussion, so seriously no apologies needed). It’s going to take a lot of time to really research, analyze, and think about the details of these things to really get an understanding of the actual mechanics. I can say that when riding I certainly can feel when Dragon has the ‘correct bend’ around the leg vs when she does not (whether or not I can generate it to the extent I want to on any given turn is another matter) - but if that bend is a literal ‘bend’ in the horse or if it more just the relation of the shoulder and leg movements… I hadn’t yet thought to really think about or analyze it in great detail.




bsms said:


> And instead of trapping a horse between the driving and restraining aids, one is asking the horse to move forward and then divert the energy upwards in the front. Instead of squeezing the horse, you are diverting the horse.


Yeah, honestly I think I will need to try on a different horse to really understand what I’m doing. Collection is easy enough with Dragon that if you recall I started getting it somewhat _accidentally_ in early lessons. I will confess that how this is done is closer to ‘trap between the restraining aids’ but that description seems pretty wrong… it’s more ‘ask for slower speed without de-energizing horse, then cue for headset’. She starts collecting upwards and _then_ we work her head into place… so the visualization of ‘trap’ isn’t really a fit for it. I’d say in this way it’s closer to ‘divert’ but it’s not the front that I’m diverting - her whole suspension changes, both front and back, and the back actually changes more than the front in my opinion. It’s not a ‘hinge’ it’s more a ‘bounce’. 

But how do we get there? Here’s the thing: if Dragon can figure out what I’m asking for, especially if she likes it, she will give it to me even if I don’t ask quite right. Collection is a very easy request. This is probably a completely and utterly different experience for a horse that is being trained in collection rather than knowing exactly what I want and who isn’t so eager to do it. 

I have little doubt that as soon as I get some other things sorted Jill will show me this on another less-trained horse. 




bsms said:


> Her advice was to use the reins in a certain way with Trooper to help him move straighter. It kind of worked. Several years later, I found with Mia and now Bandit that MY balance is often what pulls my horse off. I was using reins and heels to put a band-aid on a problem my balance was causing.  When I ride balanced - or IF - determines most of my horse's issues.


My experience with this thus far has been pretty limited, since the only horse I’ve really ridden is pretty good with turns when I cue her properly and will happily go genuinely straight in a straightaway. I will say though that I know that most of the horses at our stable - being OTTBs usually a year or less off the track - I’ve been told tend to have a surprising amount of issues with _turning right_ and can have some balance/flexibility issues in that direction which need to be worked through. Some of that may be horse-psychological, but I’ve been told there’s also a physical component to it as well. This is obviously an extreme case. 




gottatrot said:


> I agree it is not wrong to ask horses to travel in ways that are less efficient, when we are training or asking for athleticism. As long as "less efficient" doesn't mean undue stress on the body - like athletes there are ways to exercise and lift weights that are using the body correctly and without causing harm, and there are ways that cause undue stress on parts that are not designed to handle that load.


This is an incredibly important and good point by the way. This is why I think the ‘horse ballet’ analogy is possibly even better than some of the people making it might realize - ballet can be brutal on the body. It’s incredibly healthy when done recreationally - but when pushed and practiced daily (as it is in basically all professional companies) and the longevity of a ballet dancer’s health is often a sacrifice to the pursuit of art. 

_Many_ athletic disciplines when taken to high levels end up potentially resulting in health issues in the long run - and it’s even trickier in some ways, because some people go on to be just fine and are going to enjoy incredible fitness with virtually no downsides, whereas others are wrecked by the experiences and dealing with early onset arthritis and persistent strains. I know it’s tempting to want to say ‘X activity is OK but Y is not’ but unfortunately it’s rarely that clear-cut in practice. Sometimes there are better and worse (often the case with weightlifting for example) but even that isn’t always the case.

Because of this it’s easy to make an argument like ‘Well, athlete XYZ is perfectly healthy after 20 years in the sport. Obviously it’s OK!’ or ‘Athlete ABC was crippled after only 2 years, this sport is obviously too dangerous!’ And thus there’s lots and lots of room for everyone to have their opinions shaped by plenty of real-world experience on what is ‘ok’ vs what is ‘not ok’ based on what they’ve seen - even before people start looking for evidence to back up views they already have (as humans are always wont to do). It’s all about risk, and risk is an incredibly difficult thing to calculate objectively from the sample sizes a person sees only in their own lives. 

So how much stress is ‘undue’? What methods/tools/techniques are ok vs those that are not ok? There’s so much room for very valid differences of opinion by rational actors working on the best information they have available. 




LlamaPacker said:


> Also called “intermittant fasting”, there is no question but that weight will be lost, but the more important benefits (especially as one ages, which is why I’m doing it over a year now) are all the other things that studies show go along with having significant breaks from eating.


So I wrote a post at rather long length regarding my dieting methodology in another thread. 

I’ve know IF works absolute wonders for some people and some people really love it. It helps people minimize their food intake without requiring calorie-counting at other times and the ‘on’ vs ‘off’ nature of eating makes it a lot easier for people to draw firm lines around when and what they’re eating. There are a lot of variants on it and yours sounds like one of the more reasonable ones I’ve seen. 

Personally, I’ve also done quite a bit of work with fasting - mostly in a spiritual/meditative context. Usually these are 1-3 day fasts to varying degrees of strictness. I’m very familiar with how hunger can adjust to compensate for alternating periods of food-no food and actually am not even terribly prone to getting cranky when I don’t eat. 

But IF doesn’t work for me for weight-loss. I’ve found I increase my food intake at other times to make up for the fast days - often even overcompensating. It also wrecks my athletic performance. 

I’ve made the mistake of trying to do something like calorie counting and then adding in fast days _twice_ - once was going from dieting into a meditative fast (why this would be a problem just didn’t occur to me), and the other was an attempt to add IF to a general dieting/exercise routine. The first time I almost fainted and ended up having to break the meditative fast midway through due to health concerns. The second time I almost fell off a treadmill as my legs gave out kind of suddenly and I got very dizzy. 

So basically: If I don’t add calorie counting with IF I don’t lose any weight. If I do add calorie counting with it, the extra strain it puts on my body can be just too much for it. I know it works wonders for a lot of people, but I’ve ruled it out for me personally due to some unfortunate experiences.


----------



## Cammey

*Three-Lesson Weekend Update*

*Lesson 10: Group Surprise and No Stirrup Work*
So this was my ‘extra’ lesson Friday and it up being a bit flat-out-weird. When I arrived there were 3 other riders there. I wasn’t sure if they were part of my lesson or not, but I wasn’t utterly shocked to discover they were. To compensate for this it seems the lesson ended up running significantly longer - about 1 ½ hours of ride-time rather than the 1 hour I expected, and a full extra half-hour of general chatting, grooming, and discussion. 

By necessity the lesson ended up involving a bit of learning arena etiquette and how to ride with a significant number of other riders around in a fairly small space. The other beginner horse Cookie was out, and then Cricket and Kitty - with Kitty being a bit of a firebrand. 

Dragon was in a good middle-energy place for the lesson: neither sleepy nor excitable - starting off relaxed and getting bouncy as the lesson went on (which seems her usual pattern). The first half of the lesson was mostly just different sorts of trot transitions again, and working on keeping her from changing pace regardless of what other horses were doing and continuing to work on arena awareness (Jill seemed to be expecting this to be harder than it was - given her mindset it was trivially easy starting out). 

The new skill for the lesson was working on seated trot without stirrups around the arena, and posting trot without stirrups… I can manage seated trot for a lap without too much difficulty and could have gone a lot longer - it’s tiring, but not bad enough to not be maintainable. I wasn’t bouncing, which was nice. That said I can only post sans stirrups about 6 strides without getting tired enough my form suffers. Jill seemed to think even that was pretty good for my first try out. I was glad, because honestly I felt a little pathetic and was VERY glad I had opted to wear some relatively sticky breeches today.

I’m not going to lie: riding around with the other riders gave me mild flashbacks to ballet. They were all sevette younger women (I’m guessing ranging from 16-20) who obviously had more experience than I did. There were no mirrors, thankfully, but it was hard not to be a touch self-conscious.

Right near the end of the lesson Dragon started to wake up and get ‘spicy’ and much harder to handle - clearly offended that everyone else was cantering besides her. I’ve decided my new weapon for this is the collected trot. You have WAY too much energy? Fine, let’s use as much of that going _upward_ as possible. This seems to work beautifully actually and she genuinely seems to enjoy it - bouncing and showing off a bit. It seems sort of a happy-place for her, which strikes me as a little weird but I’m happy to oblige. 

After the lesson we all took our time tacking down and chatted a little idly. The least experienced of the bunch, riding the other beginner-horse, had been taking lessons for 4 years but only recently switched from Western to English. The girl who seemed in the ‘middle’ said she had been riding since she was four. The one who was riding the trickiest horse and seemed the most advanced (just judging by what she was working on today - so who knows) had been riding nine years but ‘only’ one and a half with Jill (who she and the middle girl proceeded to gush about). 

I felt slightly guilty as the girl who was riding Cookie very clearly wanted to ride Dragon. If I could physically ride Cookie (who’s I believe 14.2HH and very obviously much more easily tired than any of the thoroughbreds) I might have asked Jill if I could switch for her sake. As it was I just let her happily pet and play with Dragon after we were done. 

Overall, it’s coming along. It’ll be interesting how sore I am for my very-early lesson tomorrow. 




*Lesson 11: Leg Yeilds and Lease Preparation*
The lesson’s new skill was leg yeilds at both walk and trot. I got the basic motion without too much trouble but definitely need some time to clean it up, as currently the horse’s forehand gets out a bit ahead of the horse’s backhand (or at least did until the last go) - but I can definitely cue the basic motion and get her to go very sideways for each forward step. I also was given a way of getting Dragon to speed up at the trot without disrupting my own posting rhythm. I feel a little silly now that I didn’t just figure it out on my own. I had been trying to cue via finding time to do a gentle kick/poke in the sides while sitting… the cue to go faster is to squeeze legs while posting, and only resort to a gentle kick (also while posting) if she fails to respond to the legs… which she never did once I started. This results in a much smoother speed transition which is now easier to ride because she isn’t lurching forward with startled acceleration. We’re much happier now.

I also discovered that Jill does want me to work to get the really exaggerated ankles that some riders can have. I’m physically capable of doing it (and she knows it) so she’d like me to work on getting that all the time rather than just worrying about keeping them ‘down’ and from rising up. The rest of the lesson was mostly more polishing on things I’ve already been working on - lots of just remembering to do everything at once while we chatted a bit (and thus I didn’t have laser-focus on what I was doing). 

The conversation was about dealing with the psychology of the horse (specifically as applied to the horses at this stable) and how sessions need to be structured in order to keep Dragon relaxed and not frustrated. We spoke about Thoroughbreds and specifically about Dragon. Given that I’m leasing her next week this seems to be a really pertinent set of knowledge. 

I was asking Jill about my idea of using the collected trot to try to exhaust/use up energy in Dragon, and she told me something that stuck with me: “That would work on most horses, but you can’t exhaust a thoroughbred. They will go until their lungs bleed. I tried that when I first started training them. They can just keep getting more and more worked up. You *must* be able to wind her down and relax her.” Then, even more specifically on Dragon “Her happy place is western jog. Normally you’d use walking with occasional halts to wind a horse down and get them focused on you - but for her she takes halting and backing as almost a punishment. Western Jog is her favorite for relaxation, but you have to make sure that you tell her to go into it - she doesn’t just slip into it on her own.” I’ve noticed this - Dragon is not happy at the walk for more than a lap or two around the arena, no matter how exhausted she is she will want to go again after momentarily catching her breath and keeping her at a walk involves careful watching and sometimes even slightly fighting with her (it’s a fight I will win, but it’s not really relaxing for either of us). I myself have taken to using backing as a gentle but potent punishment - because it very clearly is with her. I’m not sure why she hates it so much - she’s athletic enough it’s not at all physically hard for her - but there’s something about doing it that seems to evoke a kind of submissive misery in her in a way that even a much more aggressive rebuke (as I have seen Jill give her when she started to be difficult around food) never has. Startle or even smack her and the best way to describe her reaction seems to be ‘whoops’ and then to pay attention - she learns from it but her negative feelings seem very momentary and transient. Make her back up and the feeling seems to ‘stick’ with her for several minutes as she consciously works to exaggeratedly avoid whatever warranted the ‘punishment’. 

I also spoke to Jill briefly about how I was thinking of putting together little lesson programs for us during lease-riding time, and she mentioned she plans to assign me homework (yay!) so I will know what I should be working on. Honestly, that makes me feel a lot better just starting this out. Jill also almost seemed somewhat apologetic that I haven’t gotten to ride any of the horses besides Dragon. I told her I was honestly perfectly ok with this, especially given that I’m still learning new skills each and every lesson. It’s not exactly like Dragon is getting boring to ride - though it may be true that I am starting to develop a number of Dragon-specific riding behaviors which I may need to watch out for.




*Saturday Volenteering*
So I made a little bit of a mistake. The woman who I’ve spent most of my time around at the stable wasn’t there today, so I ended up hanging out with a random horse-knowledgeable teenager. This meant I got swept up with a group of older teens when groups and projects were getting assigned out.

Why was this a mistake? Well, because our task for the day was _incredibly_ physical - specifically, digging out an area of caked muck that had developed under one of the shelters and had gotten bad before anyone realized it. It was 4-6” thick, packed down hard, and covered about half a garage worth of space. It took our team of five almost two solid hours of what I’d describe as seriously hard weighted cardio - literally digging and hauling muck/dirt/rocks. It was probably the hardest thing I’ve done physically since I used to do some brutal cross-training several years ago. 

I am honestly proud that my body could do it and keep up with the teenagers, who were about where I was exhaustion-wise. I was just thrilled to be keeping up. But wow it left me sore. My legs were wobbly afterwards and I was flooded with the sort of adrenaline/endorphin ‘runner's high’ that I usually only get from very hard workouts. Thankfully my back was fine, but one of my knees which had been a little sore Saturday started hurting a fair bit as the workout-high wore off. Later that night I would end up falling asleep while visiting some friends out of sheer exhaustion.

After we wrapped that up I gave up and decided that being lazy and letting my body calm down was only fair. As most of the teenagers went off to pet random horses I headed over to the tack/kitchen area, hoping to touch base with the person in charge regarding the website before heading out. Well, it turns out that the women who had handed out my work assignment for the day was the old web admin who, with very little fanfare, seemed more than happy to hand over credentials… ok, I get it, you guys really want someone else to maintain this so it stays up to date.

I’m going to need to find a little time to really sit down and take a look at their back end and (hopefully) bring up a test/QA copy somewhere so I can make changes, show them, and make sure they like it before I send it live. Then I can hopefully hunt someone down to start doing photoshoots and life-stories for all these adoptable guys.




*Lesson 12: Easy Being Green and Cavaletti Patterns*
I was pleasantly surprised that I wasn’t legitimately a wreck when I woke up this morning, but I was still quite sore. I knew I would have the entire week to recover, so I did something I know is slightly irresponsible: After carefully stretching out I popped 400 mg of Ibuprofen with breakfast. Why is this irresponsible? Popping Ibuprofen right before exercising is a pretty common practice amongst certain groups of athletes - often much more frequently than I’m willing to resort to it. Beyond the potential for digestive track issues (which I’m less worried about since I only do it perhaps once every few months), it also masks pain - which for me, because I already have a somewhat unhealthily high pain tolerance, means I become very prone to either severe overwork or mild injury when I do this. 

I actually warned Jill I may not be in top form today and that I probably should take it a touch easy. She checked in on me a couple times and I seemed fine - but I do appreciate we didn’t do any of the really intense posting-without-stirrups or the like.

The lesson itself was mostly continuing to work on fully breaking the habit of crossing over the neck with the rein and using my legs to get the proper bend under different circumstances. It was honestly a lot messier than it has been previously, and Jill felt the need to reassure me that just because it looked a lot worse doesn’t mean I’m doing it wrong. On the contrary, we’re getting it right and just doing it a harder way. I was honestly OK with that and fully understand the need to get it right. I also worked on trying to get my ankles into the _very_ low position she wants them at. She says for now she’d rather my ankles be down and my stirrups swing a little as I post rather than I get my stirrups quiet but risk my heels rising up - so that’s what I’m now doing. We’ll get them quieter later - but it meant that today this was a hilarious mess. 

We also talked about getting my inside rein down a few inches since I have a tendency to ride with it higher than my outside rein and apparently the way I’m riding is almost a mirror image of where she’d want to see them - with my outside rein up and a little shorter, and my inside rein down and a little looser. I tried really hard to get and keep it there, but can’t yet get this to stick without paying a lot of attention.

Leg cuing properly with one leg while posting trot remains a serious source of struggle for me. It’s not even that Dragon isn’t trying to listen to me - it’s that my cues are bad and I suspect my seat still has a bit of ‘noise’ in it because my balance/timing isn’t perfect (especially as she changes speeds). Because of this she either try to listen really hard to every little movement and we weave all over the place or she misses it when I am trying to actually tell her something. It’s not awful (it’s not like we ever end up more than a foot or two out from where I want to be) but it’s not good either. My weakness here makes me sad and I am working hard to correct it. She shouldn’t have to compensate for me - but I adore her for trying. 

Jill talked about forming good foundations and how difficult it is to break a bad habit once it sets in - because as you go up in levels and face new challenges you will always be tempted to go back to the first set of things that really worked for you in your bag of tricks. Much like she’d prefer to take an almost completely green horse and train it up rather than re-train an experienced one with bad habits, it’s good to get the foundations in properly now even if it’s a little slower and less pretty. She talked a bit about the challenges some of her other students have faced really having to work to undo old patterns and instincts. The analog she was making between me and a green horse were pretty transparent, and appreciated. Overall, the whole discussion made me feel a lot better about what was objectively a very drunk-horse day and couple times I have managed to flat-out-fail to cue Dragon in a way she could make sense of. Honestly, Jill’s comparison was a very useful pep-talk and I started to really see some of the things the other girls were saying about how good she is at being encouraging/supportive. 

After the difficulty of the first part of the lesson we ended on something incredibly fun: Cavaletti Pattern Work. Basically Jill took down a couple of the jumps in the arena and turned them into cavaletti sets to post-trot over and then gave instructions for a pattern to ride through them involving a fair bit of tight-turning and needing to think ahead to make sure Dragon would be squarely lined up before we went through. This combined a lot of the planning required for tight pattern work along with the balance and timing required for Cavaletti-riding (which I am finally reliable enough at that I feel confident even if we did skitter-step once or twice going in). It was like a twisty-jumping-course without the actual jumps and it was one of the most fun things I’ve yet to do on a horse. Dragon seemed largely to agree and was what I kind of want to call ‘happy-relaxed’. It was a very good note to end on for both of us.

Just overall I’m feeling very good about Jill as my trainer. She’s very good at keeping spirits up when I’m not at my best, and also at constantly challenging me. I also feel like she’s serious about wanting me to improve and the potential of me going on and actually competing. I kind of feel a little like I’ve been added to a mental stable of riders being trained alongside the stable of horses she’s training. Given how much she loves those horses I take that as a pretty high compliment.

Getting home I felt… wrecked. Several hours later I’m still waiting for the Ibuprofen to fully wear off so I can know which side of the ‘overworked’ or ‘injured’ lines I’m on. I do know that stairs were painful enough on my knee to make me giggle (I have some weird pain responses - laughing/giggling involuntarily in response to pain is one of them, it’s apparently a little creepy but it’s the way I’ve always been. I will do it even when I’ve been seriously injured - which is just as unpleasant as it sounds). I have put myself on full rest for the day and don’t plan to do anything more strenuous than showering and sitting at my computer. 




*Day-After Update*
I feel… weirdly fine. Several muscle groups are a little tight and I have some very mild DOMS in a handful of places - but nothing is crying out in agony. My knee isn’t even that tender, and while I’m not going to push it I’m now wondering if most/all of the pain was from my joint inflammation issues (suspected RA) rather than any injury/overwork just based on how severe it was yesterday (near mobility-limiting) vs. how gone it is today (almost unnoticeable).

I’ll confess, this whole issue can make it very difficult to know what I should and should not be doing. I felt like I was being a little bit of a stubborn idiot exercising yesterday and quite possibly did something I would be trying desperately to recover from the whole week. Today I feel like I could easily go riding (or heck: climbing/doing physical labor/weightlifting) again today. I feel at least as good as I did on Friday.

Part of me wants to go back to my doctor… but to do what now that the problem is over? I’ve already been through all the blood-work and have had all the foundational x-rays done so we can watch for cartilage degradation (we can see a little - enough my doctor can see I’m not just imagining things or making something out to be more than it is, but the damage is really not bad yet). Basically for the next steps this either needs to get unmanageably frequent/severe to the point where we start talking about putting me on medications that can have non-trivial side-effects or if I can do so I need to catch a severe episode _in action_ so we can re-run blood work and verify our current suspicions as to what’s causing it a little better. Catching the really bad episodes is tough though because they’re only at their worst for a day or two and when they’re that bad I often mistake them for unexplained injuries at the time. 

Gah. Well, at least I’m not actually injured, so that’s good.


----------



## greentree

You must be QUITE the phenom, Cammey!!! Wow, very few of us get to leg yielding the 10th time we have ever ridden a horse! Most of us were still trying to find trot rhythm! Jill must be quite excited to have you.

Good work!


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## gottatrot

> (Cammey)
> I was asking Jill about my idea of using the collected trot to try to exhaust/use up energy in Dragon, and she told me something that stuck with me: “That would work on most horses, but you can’t exhaust a thoroughbred. They will go until their lungs bleed. I tried that when I first started training them. They can just keep getting more and more worked up. You must be able to wind her down and relax her.”


You have a very good instructor. Just reading what you say about her, it sounds like she is someone that keeps learning as she goes, tries to help people understand the "why" of what they are doing, and understands horses. What she says is very true. Arabs are the same way, just with a little different flavor than TBs. 

It is also very good that you are trying to understand your horse and what makes her excited, calm, feel reprimanded, etc. These things are very important for riding every horse. You also seem to be understanding that what is a reprimand for Dragon might be calming for another horse. That will help you a lot in your future riding. So many riders believe that what worked for one horse will work for them all. Jogging may calm one horse and amp up another. 

I liked what you said about ballet and how individualized it also is whether something causes damage to an athlete or they tolerate it well. For horses, I think a good place to start is thinking about the body type they have. Are they short enough or tall enough for what they are doing? Do they seem to have bulky, sprinter muscles or long, lean endurance ones? You can use a horse for some things they aren't naturally built for, but you have to more carefully condition them and keep in mind the mental aspect and if they can tolerate the activity that way. 

Getting your heel down and posting without stirrups require the same thing. Both are related to having your weight flow down your leg through aligned joints. Not trying to be rude to this rider, but if you look at the slow motion aspects of this video you can see that her knee is a hinge and she separates the upper leg and lower leg from each other. This makes her ankle and calf rotate and roll back and forth. She also has her foot behind her center of movement a lot of the time. This is making her less secure.




In this video, from 4:00 to 4:30, the rider shows a different way to use the leg. She is cantering, but this applies to trotting and all riding. Notice how instead of having a hinged section, this rider's leg is connected, with all the muscles up and down the leg working together. The rider's leg will slide up and down the saddle, and sometimes forward and back slightly as the horse moves. But the whole leg is a unit.


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## Cammey

greentree said:


> You must be QUITE the phenom, Cammey!!! Wow, very few of us get to leg yielding the 10th time we have ever ridden a horse! Most of us were still trying to find trot rhythm! Jill must be quite excited to have you.
> 
> Good work!


Thank you! 

I really have very little idea what pace this is supposed to be going at and what ‘normal’ is, but admittedly it _feels_ fast. I’m just really trying to put my mind and heart into putting forward my best effort, soaking up everything I can like a sponge, and trying to get everything I can out of every lesson.






gottatrot said:


> You have a very good instructor. Just reading what you say about her, it sounds like she is someone that keeps learning as she goes, tries to help people understand the "why" of what they are doing, and understands horses. What she says is very true. Arabs are the same way, just with a little different flavor than TBs.


Yeah, the longer this is going on the more I am coming to the conclusion that I really like her. I had already decided I liked her results just from looking at her horses and riders fairly early on. But as time goes on I’m also realizing I’m fond of her _methods_ and that it’s a really good fit personality and goal wise. 

I’m honestly both curious and slightly nervous to learn more about Arabs. A lot of my current views on them are shaped by tales of Amore and Halla. I finished your book, it is so good! It also terrified me in spots and I was quite glad to know that in the ‘ending’ you all survived. While I realize those two are probably not representative samples of the breed they _do_ bear a striking resemblance to other stories I’ve heard. 




gottatrot said:


> It is also very good that you are trying to understand your horse and what makes her excited, calm, feel reprimanded, etc. These things are very important for riding every horse. You also seem to be understanding that what is a reprimand for Dragon might be calming for another horse. That will help you a lot in your future riding. So many riders believe that what worked for one horse will work for them all. Jogging may calm one horse and amp up another.


Perhaps it’s silly, but the thought of horses not having their own personalities, opinions, and learning styles never really occurred to me. It’s just that from my very first time on a horse the main problem I had to deal with was different from what I’ve been told is typical: I had spent all this time reading/watching how to get horses to move and keep moving and how horses fundamentally want to rest and relax. Basically I kept reading that letting the horse rest by either standing or walking on a loose rein is how you reward the horse… Yet my very first problem was trying to get Dragon to _stop_ and _not speed up_. Keeping her at the walk on a loose rein is hard. Excepting about 1-2 laps after she’s momentarily been winded or when we’re first starting up I actually can’t usually just leave the rein loose - because I will need it to apply half-halts or we will end up trotting. 

I’m mostly just thrilled I haven’t _accidentally_ wound up at the canter and that she hasn’t decided that a cavaletti isn’t really an imaginary jump she can play with. I have a totally different set of problems (not easier or harder, just different) than what all the sites/videos about beginning riding seem to indicate I’m supposed to have - just based on the personality of the horse I’m on. 

If I ignored that I don’t think I’d be able to actually stay on this horse. 




gottatrot said:


> Getting your heel down and posting without stirrups require the same thing. Both are related to having your weight flow down your leg through aligned joints.


Thank you for the videos. I can definitely see what you’re talking about. One of my big challenges is figuring out how much weight to press down through into the stirrups. Really, this is going to be a matter I think of trying different things out and finding my balance. I do see what you mean about avoiding the dreaded ‘knee pinching’ that appears in the first video though.


----------



## Whinnie

I've been wondering why a beginner would be given a horse that seems to need so much "riding". Instructors usually start beginners on quiet, willing, very broke "schoolmasters", the point and go type, so cues, balance and nuances can be learned and mistakes can be made without the beginner becoming frustrated or frightened. Has your instructor determined you are a special case and put you on a fast track? I know when my 31 year old stepdaughter wanted to learn to ride, if she had been mounted on Dragon, she wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes, also being a total beginner with no experience at all. She isn't particularly athletic, but she isn't a wimp either.


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## tinyliny

as for how much weight in the stirrup? I am still working on that one. I am constantly readjusting that. like, say, I get too busy with my leg, putting leg on to a horse that is sucking back, then I realize that my heel has come up and I don't have the weight flowing down, so I adjust.

or, I find that I am riding too much off my stirrup and getting too stiff, so I try to ease more weight onto my thighs. 

it's a 'feel and adjust' feedback loop.


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## sarahfromsc

I would show the videos posted to your coach. There are issues on both videos. You and your instructor can watch and discuss. To me that is part of the whole lesson.

Many times I would watch and discuss videos with my coach. Was less riding for that pariticular lesson, but well worth it. In other words, do not trust everyone and everything you see on the internet.

Discuss with your coach.


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## Cammey

Whinnie said:


> I've been wondering why a beginner would be given a horse that seems to need so much "riding". Instructors usually start beginners on quiet, willing, very broke "schoolmasters", the point and go type, so cues, balance and nuances can be learned and mistakes can be made without the beginner becoming frustrated or frightened. Has your instructor determined you are a special case and put you on a fast track? I know when my 31 year old stepdaughter wanted to learn to ride, if she had been mounted on Dragon, she wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes, also being a total beginner with no experience at all. She isn't particularly athletic, but she isn't a wimp either.


Honestly I can only speculate. As I’ve mentioned previously there literally are no other adult-sized horses that are more beginner-friendly at this stable, and I am the only new-new beginner that this place has had in awhile. There’s one pony (Cookie) who’s just under 14HH and who I _think_ is genuinely a more traditional beginner pony - though even he is a jumper up to I think 2’3” - but at 180lbs I am too big to ride him. 

So the options here would be either don’t train any new-beginner adults (which seems to be what most places around here do), buy a whole horse for something that rarely comes up (and have one less slot for a horse she’d really want - I doubt she’d ever do that), or put people on her quite forward but well trained horse - which is what she did.

Now, this place is unapologetically all about sports-training - H/J and Eventing - and Jill did know my background when I started up and that this was the direction I was looking at getting into. I also have no idea if we would have gone this fast if I hadn’t been as comfortable as I have been. But as to the horse I’m riding there’s basically only one option. If I wanted a calmer horse, I’d need to find a different place to train. 

It’s definitely not for everyone. Amanda (climbing partner) is debating if she really wants to jump into this place so we can be with the same trainer or if she’d rather try to find somewhere a bit calmer to train at. For me though, if my posts don’t make it obvious, I’m loving it _a lot_ and have been feeling increasingly fortunate at where I ended up. I’m really not sure if I would have fallen as in love with all of this if I had tried to follow a gentler road. I love the instant feedback on working with a sensitive horse. While Dragon is definitely is forward, she’s also generally pretty patient with me. I love riding her because it really forces my mind into the present - there’s no time to worry about my career, how I need to clean the house, that social event I’m not looking forward to, or anything else. There’s just being fully mentally engaged with what I’m doing. It’s sublime.

I’m also not sure she’s quite as insanely difficult as people seem to be giving me credit for. Yes, she’s sensitive and I need to make sure she doesn’t speed up and I don’t yank on her, but with the exception of the one spook it’s not like she makes it hard just to stay on. In some ways I think I may actually have a few things easier because I don’t have to worry about constantly cueing her forward with my leg. She really does try hard to figure out what I want and give it to me. It’s not like I’m trying to stay on a horse that wants me off her. 

Of course, admittedly I also have no real perspective. I’ve ridden two horses, her and that poor sad dude-string trail-horse. One of these days I do want to try out a ‘normal’ beginner horse for comparison’s sake - but I genuinely have no idea where I will find one I’d be able to ride at this point. 




tinyliny said:


> as for how much weight in the stirrup? I am still working on that one. I am constantly readjusting that. like, say, I get too busy with my leg, putting leg on to a horse that is sucking back, then I realize that my heel has come up and I don't have the weight flowing down, so I adjust.
> 
> or, I find that I am riding too much off my stirrup and getting too stiff, so I try to ease more weight onto my thighs.
> 
> it's a 'feel and adjust' feedback loop.


Yeah, that’s about what I was suspecting. Honestly it seems like here is where the real work is beginning. It’s in trying to figure out how much pressure to put where, how hard to push/pull/squeeze, the timing on shifting my weight around, etc. etc. etc. 




sarahfromsc said:


> I would show the videos posted to your coach. There are issues on both videos. You and your instructor can watch and discuss. To me that is part of the whole lesson.
> 
> Many times I would watch and discuss videos with my coach. Was less riding for that pariticular lesson, but well worth it. In other words, do not trust everyone and everything you see on the internet.
> 
> Discuss with your coach.


Right now I’m more trying different things and asking her what she thinks of me doing each thing - but it’s similiar. The thing is that to be honest I’m only about 80% sure how to turn ‘looks like X’ into ‘feels like Y’. I could possibly pull up youtube videos, but I’m getting enough input right now that I’m not sure it’s the most effective way to address the topic. 

One crazy idea I have right now, which I may ask the barn owner about if it’s OK to do this, is trying to video myself during my lease-time and then see what the heck I look like compared to various things. Because to be honest I have very little idea what I _look_ like objectively. I mean, probably a mess - but what kind of mess?


----------



## sarahfromsc

Most coaches have no problems with you videotaping your lessons. Hell, even my coach will do the videoing.

Again, just because something is posted here as the gospel, don't always buy into that particular gospel.

Before I moved I was training level three testing at level 1 test 3, and just starting to test level two. And I was nowhere near what you are doing at lesson 10.

Now my horse was green after having the basics started by me, and I had never ridden dressage or had formal lessons before the age of 47, but we were NOWHERE near what you are doing by lesson 10.

So kudos.

Just don't drink all the koolaide given to you.


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## gottatrot

@Cammey seems to be a quite logical and detailed thinker, weighing all the pros and cons. One of the least likely types to drink kool aide. Even if you get fooled for a minute or two by Nevzorov (my example of a horse extremist - thinks people should not ride horses), the facts and your own experiences soon straighten things out. IMHO.


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## sarahfromsc

We have all had episodes of drinking koolaide....horses, family, work, husbands. One doesn't know the test of koolaide until one tastes it's bitter taste.

Ask me how I know that.


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## Cammey

sarahfromsc said:


> Most coaches have no problems with you videotaping your lessons. Hell, even my coach will do the videoing.
> 
> Again, just because something is posted here as the gospel, don't always buy into that particular gospel.
> 
> Before I moved I was training level three testing at level 1 test 3, and just starting to test level two. And I was nowhere near what you are doing at lesson 10.
> 
> Now my horse was green after having the basics started by me, and I had never ridden dressage or had formal lessons before the age of 47, but we were NOWHERE near what you are doing by lesson 10.
> 
> So kudos.
> 
> Just don't drink all the koolaide given to you.


The one thing I’ve got going for me is that I can’t seem to walk two steps without getting contradictory opinions. This is genuinely appreciated to be honest and is why I actually rather like seeing people debating in here in the comments - multiple points of view. 

Ah dressage! I want to pick your brain on it but I have no real idea where to even start. 

My real hope here with all the things I’m being exposed to is that it doesn’t mean I’m picking up anything half-***ed. I don’t feel I am - but again, lack of outside perspective is a killer. I just kind of have to go with looking at my trainer’s students and results and trusting I’m going in a good direction. I feel like I’m going in a good direction - but I lack perspective. I figure worst case I will end up circling back around on things again and again - just must avoid developing any bad habits. 

I will say though: This would all be a hilariously different story if Dragon wasn’t already an expert at the movements. I’m really just trying to figure out _how to ask_ and I get the benefit of knowing if I get it right or not pretty quickly (baring her giving me what I want even if I do it wrong… see the last thing I was working on). 

I’m continously baffled/impressed by people who manage to learn things on relatively green horses - seriously. 





gottatrot said:


> @Cammey seems to be a quite logical and detailed thinker, weighing all the pros and cons. One of the least likely types to drink kool aide. Even if you get fooled for a minute or two by Nevzorov (my example of a horse extremist - thinks people should not ride horses), the facts and your own experiences soon straighten things out. IMHO.


I try, oh I try - but my experiences are so limited right now. This is why for example I love reading stuff of yours so much - it’s a window into a different world and a different set of experiences. The tales from you and one of my Denver friends has put a perspective on what ‘brave’ is as an example (as well as the potential consequences for such). That’s provided a lot of perspective - both in humbling me when I feel like I'm being a bada**, as well as showing me the risks I'd be taking on if I tried to be any more of one. 

I really do greatly appreciate hearing differing views on things (yours in particular if you haven’t picked up on that). I need them all so I can at least figure out where the controversies _are_ so I know that this is an area that should be questioned. I could certainly try to just make every mistake myself... but I'd rather try to pilfer knowledge from everyone else's experiences . 




sarahfromsc said:


> We have all had episodes of drinking koolaide....horses, family, work, husbands. One doesn't know the test of koolaide until one tastes it's bitter taste.
> 
> Ask me how I know that.


How do you know that?


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## sarahfromsc

Drank the koolaide of course.

Part and parcel of living life.


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## Cammey

sarahfromsc said:


> Drank the koolaide of course.
> 
> Part and parcel of living life.


I should have seen that coming (I thought it was an invite for story-time.)


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## Tazzie

You really must be a quick learner! I know by lesson 10 I was probably still on the lunge line having my seat picked apart :lol: I know riders who've been riding many years who aren't even that coordinated to trot leg yields!

I do have to agree with the don't drink the kool aide. I did once as well. We've schooled exclusively Dressage since I broke my mare (I've only done Dressage since I was 14; 29 now). We were "stuck", and I was tricked into trying clinic rides with one of the local guys.

Biggest waste of $60. I went to him a couple of times even to give him a shot. Waste of money.

I've since found much better instructors who are actually interested in helping us climb the levels.

I will say, a lot of info gets posted. Some good, some bad. I'd be taking it all with a grain of salt.


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## sarahfromsc

I was lucky to have found three that worked with me. Two gold medalists and a bronze medalist.

Not much into story time. I am more of the one liner type of person. Raising kids and dealing with horses has taught me to make it short and sweet and to the point. Then move on to the next item.


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## Cammey

Tazzie said:


> You really must be a quick learner! I know by lesson 10 I was probably still on the lunge line having my seat picked apart :lol: I know riders who've been riding many years who aren't even that coordinated to trot leg yields!
> 
> I do have to agree with the don't drink the kool aide. I did once as well. We've schooled exclusively Dressage since I broke my mare (I've only done Dressage since I was 14; 29 now). We were "stuck", and I was tricked into trying clinic rides with one of the local guys.
> 
> Biggest waste of $60. I went to him a couple of times even to give him a shot. Waste of money.
> 
> I've since found much better instructors who are actually interested in helping us climb the levels.
> 
> I will say, a lot of info gets posted. Some good, some bad. I'd be taking it all with a grain of salt.


Alright, that officially makes me stop feeling bad about messiness in my leg yeilds. I legitimately had no idea they were considered that tricky. One of the interesting things with all this is that I really have very little idea what pace skill acquisition is reasonable to expect. It also seems that most of the people who are interested in going into the sports end of riding are (the vast majority) youths with an occasional adult re-rider. Finding a schedule for an adult rider who’s starting that path with genuinely no prior riding experience isn’t really a thing I can find much documentation on.

I wouldn’t consider trying out a clinic or two really ‘drinking the kool aid’. How is anyone supposed to be able to evaluate something if they don’t take a look? That just sounds like investigating a path that didn’t end up working out. I’m sure I’ll end up wasting a lot of time/energy on things that don’t work by the time this is all through. What I’d rather not do is just blindly fall into a school of thought without considering alternatives - that whole self-fulfilling-cycle in which you buy into something and then spend a lot of time trying to defend your position against legitimate critique. 

Really I’m just inviting a lot of viewpoints right now until I can find some that make sense in at least some ways to me. I’m not even saying that a lot of seemingly contradictory perspectives are even _wrong_, and if I’ve learned one thing on here it’s that I’m not quite on the same path or with the same goals as a lot of people here - but I’m still interested in a diversity of perspectives. Maybe someone will see something I won’t. 

Very much appreciate the commentary.


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## Cammey

*A Jittery and Educational Weekend*

*Lesson 13: Nerves*

Today was my first time out to the new stable. It’s a full 45 minutes drive along some beautiful but treacherously winding roads. I actually drive right past my trainer’s house, and was worried I was running late until I saw her head out to her truck as I passed by. 

The setup at the new place is just a lot larger than what I’ve been dealing with. It’s a 22 stall barn with a couple tack rooms and then a separate arena building just a short ways away. The arena is quite large with absolutely beautiful footing and includes a little ‘guest seating’ area. There’s a lot more room to weave around the jumps with somewhat less tight turns than I’m used to having to make. The property itself is surrounded by a fairly large bit of wooden fence in which several smaller (but still fairly large) paddock-sized areas have been split out with electric fencing. I spotted Dragon in one of them along with some unfamiliar horses on my way in.

The horses had been trailered in late on Thursday and had all apparently had at least one ride before I got to them, but this was only everyone’s second day there. 

The barn owner was incredibly chatty with Jill, to the point where it cut somewhat annoyingly into my lesson time. She seems a lovely woman, but while she thrived for Jill’s attention I very much felt like an afterthought. This was fine by me - but a touch of a nuisance. The big important point is that she seemed to be interested in making sure the horses were well, including having apparently re-organized some of the groups the prior day to avoid too much picking on each other (which apparently was proving a problem).

It turns out that my herd-catching skills are not yet totally obsolete, as I ended up going out into the ‘mare pen’ with a bunch of unfamiliar horses to go get Dragon. I was actually surprised how few of the horses I recognized out there - but then I realized that all of Jill’s horses who are heading out here for boarding by chance happen to be geldings.

Dragon was thrilled to see me - strangely thrilled. She reminded me just the tiniest bit of a dog who’s been left alone a the house too long and was worried no one was going to come back. She was subtly but obviously nervous, and seemed to be coming over to me for comfort. As soon as I got her out of the paddock she seemed to relax a little and rested her head down to graze, which I only allowed a touch of before pulling her in. 

Her eagerness to see me was flattering, but really should have been a bit of a warning sign. 

Unlike previously where I have seen her fake-nervous, I got to see what the real thing looked like today. Even just grooming her she was incredibly sensitive. When I gently asked her to move over so I could get to her side when tacking her up she took the ‘move over’ as ‘swing as far away as the cross ties will let you’. She did this consistently - I’d ask for something, and get an overreaction. Going to pick out her hooves she started lifting her feet and holding them there as soon as I had the pick in my hands - not even giving me time to brush off the outsides before beginning the routine. She worked to be the best of good girls, to the point where it was actually sort of problematic how much she tried to anticipate what I was asking for. I tried to calm her down, to only moderate avail.

I probably should have spent more time grooming and bonding, but unfortunately by this point was trying to get out to the lesson since I had already lost between a quarter and a third of it to the barn owner’s distracting Jill. I’m not sure if it would have helped - but if I had the chance to do it again, I would see how relaxed I could get her in those cross-ties before we moved out.

Once we got into the arena I actually began with walking her around in-hand a little, just to let her get the lay of the land. She was allowed to rubber-neck during this whole period, since while she had been in here once it was still very clearly unfamiliar and a bit nerve-wracking. We spent a little while on this, but again possibly should have spent even a bit more. She still seemed nervous, but didn’t actually spook at any point, so I thought we’d be ok to go. 

Jill clearly had a lesson plan for the day. She even had gone so far as to take down some cavaletti poles and have them set up for me - but sometimes lesson plans just don’t work out. Dragon’s absolute nervousness ended up being the topic for today instead. 

Now having seen both ‘fake spook’ and ‘genuinely scared’ I can see how they are very, very different. The big play-spook was preceded by a calm and very energetic horse, resulted in one big and dramatic motion, and then played-around with being willing to address the ‘source’ of the fear while not really showing any other signs of being afraid or over-sensitive. When genuinely freaked out Dragon was very clearly trying, at every step in the process, to behave to the best of her ability. For the most part her nerves came out in wanting to rapidly move away from things that scared her, speeding up and refusing to slow down - like slow-motion bolting wherein she wasn’t even changing gait out of the trot but she found that ‘extremely fast trot’ and refused to drop out of it. This was generally followed by noise-making and sneezing, which apparently is her trying to calm _herself_ down, and then she’d try to slow down to the appropriate pace. She wouldn’t resist me at all when I tried to get her to re-confront things, and she steadily got better as time went by - though she wanted _very_ firm contact with the bit and would react _dramatically_ to any little changes I made. She was _incredibly_ sensitive to my seat - and when not actively terrified, perhaps even a bit better-behaved than usual. If I let up pressure on the reins to try to shuffle them at all it would result in speeding up or trying to move. Basically, she seemed to be waiting for any signs that I thought it was time to get out of there. Of all the things, halting was surprisingly easy when she wasn’t actively running from something.

Her ‘spooking’ only once resulted in something that was more than just speeding up or refusing to slow down. To be honest I’m not even really sure what happened - maybe some sort of kicking backwards at the thing that scared her? I don’t want to call it a ‘buck’ because it didn’t seem as violent as I imagine that being - it was more the amount of disruption like I suddenly skitter-stepped over a cavaletti out of nowhere while she tried alternatively to speed the heck up and collect as I pulled back _at the same time_. It wasn’t too bad to ride but it was concerning enough that all my focus was on riding, not on pondering how I got there in the first place. I could have gotten annoyed at her, but I really felt she was giving me 100% - she went off of that at a trot and let herself be worked right back through the same spot, not even trying to evade what I was asking of her. 

So today’s actual lessons consisted primarily of dealing with spooking, including how to deal with a horse wrestling with me over the bit (the key apparently is up, not in towards my seat - wiggling the bit if I need to in order to get her off it and not letting her brace her neck fully against me), and not letting my shoulders come forward and accidentally give her any clue I might want to speed up. I was complimented that my ankles apparently looked quite good through all this mess and that my timing on rewarding her for calming down was also quite solid. Honestly, by about 15 minutes in Jill seemed quite unconcerned regarding my ability to manage the situation. It took me about twice that to come to the same conclusion.

Still, I’m not going to lie: It was exhausting. It also wasn’t terribly fun, which is a first for my lessons. It took basically the entire first half-hour to really fully and consistently get her under control without having to fight her, and then the last 10-15 or so minutes (because some time was lost to the barn owner) was mostly spent just doing very basic things to really get her headspace in order. 

While not fun it admittedly was very educational. By the end of the lesson I had successfully calmed her down to be really workable - to the point where we used Dragon walking around as leader in a little trail-ride at the beginning of the next lesson to calm _those_ horses down. No one really liked the way the arena sounded in the wind. 

We didn’t have much time since schedule ended up semi-overlapping with the next lesson, but I did speak quickly with Jill regarding my lease. So her Tuesday-evening lesson slot has opened up, so I can move my obnoxious early Saturday lesson over to Tuesday night. Then I will only get one night of riding her - but it will be Thursday, my #1 choice. This means my new riding schedule will be Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday - which is much better than what I’m trying to do now. 

That said, I’m also not ready to ride her for the first time by myself when she’s this freaked out. This was significantly, significantly worse than I’ve ever seen her. I even believe I could probably handle it - but it’s not a confident enough ‘probably’ for me to be comfortable being alone in the arena. My hope is that she’ll calm down after she settles in. I now have two lessons between today and Thursday to see how things go.

The one really good thing I will say about working with Dragon though is that it’s been very easy to tell what sort of horse I have when we’re tacking up. I can tell if I’ve got a sleepy/relaxed horse, a bouncy horse, or a terrified horse. If I have a terrified horse, I will just spend some time grooming her on Thursday and bonding without actually taking her out. 

In the end I’m exhausted and slightly dejected. I probably should be happy that I was able to ride her and successfully calm her down, but this is the first time I’ve been genuinely nervous for more than a few minutes during a lesson. 



*Lesson 14: Confidence Building and Headset at the Walk*
I arrived a little early today and watched the ‘mare herd’ and think I spotted at least a little bit of the problem - Dragon, who was roughly second-ranked in her home herd and quite comfortable with the herd-leader in general was getting the snot kicked out of her in this one and being completely chased off the round-bale. Every time she tried to approach respectfully, a white mare would ear-pin. She was chased off multiple times by multiple different horses, including once I believe into the electric fence when she let herself get cornered - and this was just what I saw over about ten minutes.

Around this time someone came out and saw it and then led back inside to a stall where she was given a private breakfast. Apparently she’s not going to starve, regardless of how long this goes on, because they’re adjusting what she’s getting fed in the stall to compensate for not eating at the round bale. Because she works so many hours every day she gets fed concentrates regularly in addition to her hay, so it’s not too huge a deal to just adjust and make sure she has some additional nutrition available in a stall context. I was pleased and comforted to know that people were watching things closely enough to make sure this wasn’t going to be a problem and adjust accordingly. Apparently they want to give it a few days to see if it will sort itself out, believing it probably will.

No wonder she was so thrilled to see me last morning.

Today I worked to correct all the things I felt I might have done wrong yesterday. I took a lot of extra time in grooming, making sure I had a calm horse before I led her off. She probably ended up eating two whole handfuls of treats (healthy treats, not sugar-treats) by the time we were done with this… to which Jill added a few of her own. I actually considered it a bit of a good sign when she started looking to pester me for them instead of giving me white-eye and being jumpy. I never quite got her to ‘relaxed’ (I have had this horse seem to doze off on me while I’ve groomed her before - she can get very, very comfortable and relaxed with grooming) but I did manage to get her entirely wound down from ‘jumpy’.

I didn’t hand-walk her, nor did I let her make a big deal of things as we rode out - we did that yesterday, no need to today. 

The first five or so minutes were a little rough as she reacquainted herself. She was alert, but not nearly as worked up. After the warmup though she seemed to trust that I would inform her regarding the horse-eating tendencies of any random objects or noises. She frequently seemed to ask the question, but readily accepted my answers - there was no fighting about it.

Had it not been for yesterday, I still would have said this was the worst I had ever seen her… but compared to yesterday it was such a welcome contrast. This was a level of jumpy I felt entirely comfortable handling. I can manage reassuring and even reassuringly firm if need be. 

She didn’t demand an absurd amount of contact with the bit. She was actually _less_ prone to run off on me then she is during a happy-excited day. She did halt once when we tried to go past a scary object, but accepted my walk-on without complaint after that. She side-stepped away from something a little scary - but went back to it a second time without complaint and even let me leg her towards it as we went by. She was much more thinking-nervous than reacting-nervous if that makes any sense. She was a bit sensitive - but mostly in a trying-to-listen way - which honestly wasn’t even entirely a bad thing. My aids are starting to get good enough that if I’m careful her being sensitive won’t result in us looking drunk - I just have to not let myself get lazy.

So the first half of the lesson or so was fully working out these kinks. After that she seemed to settle into being actually comfortable I got a somewhat unusually polite version of her - a touch reactive, but not prone to run off with me at all. 

At this point we got to working on some new content - specifically asking for headset at the walk without messing up her pace by thinking I was asking for a halt or speed change. This was sort of delightfully tricky and really got me thinking about how I could use my seat to keep pace smooth while cuing her head into position. It was a really nice thinking exercise. We then worked a bit on trying to clean up my leg yeilds. I’m not sure how other horses would respond to this, but I did manage to generate a mildly hilarious mess one pass by doing a leg yeild while posting on the wrong diagonal… I'm not even sure how to explain the result besides ‘confused’ - perhaps “butt wiggle towards rail.”

When I wasn’t finding new and mildly humorous ways to make mistakes I did manage to figure out how not to leave behind Dragon's back end and how to keep consistent pace while side-passing - at least in theory. I’m not yet reliable enough with it to get it all the time. Really it’s a matter of getting the back-end cues to not come after the front-end cues and to sort of ‘pull’ her forward around my leg so she wraps around it more than just is led by it. Jill was pleased (‘good correction’) but I’m still not able to manage it quite consistently.

I did ‘perch’ once during a weird step (I suspect my mistake) while doing leg yeilds. Basically I go into a not-great two-point to avoid all the jiggling of the seat, but my ankles aren’t really low enough for a proper two-point so the whole thing is kind of precarious. This didn’t cause any problems at the time but I appreciate the reminder that I really need to be sure my seat is secure at all times (especially after yesterday). I also was told that when she’s uncertain like she was today I should really try to be even more generous and frequent with my praise than I might usually be - basically every time we slow to the walk because she does well I should be really reassuring and praising her to help build back up her confidence. 

The more technical and slightly slower dressage-type movements we practiced today were a very good use of Dragon’s reactiveness and sensitivity while at the same time being good for my not-exactly-thrill-seeking mindset. It got us both really thinking and analyzing each other. Once again, the cavaletti poles sat unused in the arena - but it was a pleasant adaptation. I will probably go back to wanting to race around the arena in a lesson or two (because wow this arena looks like it will be fun to try to go fast in) - but for now I was very happy with something quiet and smooth.

That said, overall my concern regarding my ability to manage Dragon has gone down dramatically. I’ve gained some confidence in my ability to determine how bad a day we’re going to have, and also to work her down if need be. I’m also thankful that yesterday seems to have been a bit of an extreme confluence of factors and that there doesn’t seem to be any sort of ‘new normal’ to it. I can deal with her current level of nerves - and I have no reason to suspect she won’t get better as the week goes by. 

*
Overall Weekend Thoughts*
I still stand by my statement that as of yet, I don’t want to ride Dragon solo if she’s worked up to the degree she was Saturday. I really still want Jill there to catch me if I make a mistake that could make things worse. I do think I have an understanding of how to manage things - the right amount of firmness vs. being reassuring - but I’m not confident enough of my judgement to want to try it without the safety net of a trainer being right there. I would, however, be down for repeating Saturday again if Jill was with me, or of managing a day like Sunday completely on my own. 

This weekend has been the first real test of my confidence and my nerve. I am realizing just how much of my attention and learning really needs to be focused on _the horse_ rather than just _how to ride_. This has always been a bit true with Dragon even from day one - but this really pulled that into focus for me. I am also really thankful for her in a lot of ways - given how utterly upset she was I’m very glad she had the presence of mind to keep in her thoughts that she had a rider. I suspect if I truly had lost control of things I would have just ended up being taken to the far corner of the arena standing next to either Jill or the gateway out. That was difficult to have perspective on at the time, as any loss of control while on an upset horse is scary, but objectively I can see why it seemed far less dangerous to Jill than it felt at the time to me, especially once pulling became her only real problem. 

Also, I learned that Dragon can (and will) pull harder on that bit than I can. For a horse that can respond to a centimeter of rein movement pretty dramatically and which I am always very careful to be gentle on the bit I find that honestly amazing. 

This is very much going to be one of those weekends I suspect I will be very glad happened when I’m looking back on it in the rear-view. As of right now I’m very relieved I will get one more lesson before I take to riding her completely solo - if for nothing else then so I get to see her progress towards becoming a calmer horse again.


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## tinyliny

I think that the original 'drinking the koolaid" episode, from which this odd saying came, happened long enough ago that many people do not know what it means.

here's a reference to how this saying came into our lexicon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_the_Kool-Aid


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## gottatrot

@Cammey, you are a good horsewoman and will be a great one. I'm very glad you've decided to take up riding and working with horses. Dragon is already glad to have you. 

It sounds like you did a great job on a nervous horse brought into a new environment and new herd situation. Almost every horse will get worked up by that, as you can see. I enjoy reading your perspective, it's a good one. Many people would post far differently after a similar experience. I could imagine the questions: "I've lost the bond with my horse...help!" or "Dramatic change in personality - horse has become a terror!" or "Do I need a new lesson horse?" 
You are doing extremely well, and handling things you have no business being able to handle yet (being facetious). Kudos.

You have the ability to see the bigger picture of what is going on in the horse's life versus focusing on the one detail which is the horse's response to a single lesson in the arena. That is key to understanding horses.


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## sarahfromsc

Work, and one knows what drinking the koolaide means....go along with the game plan or get fired/laid off.

Ask me how I know.

Well, cammy, you are way ahead of me! I ride daily, either schooling or on trail, and I am still trying to figure out what makes my little grey Arab spook. It changes daily. He looks good spooking and the crazy little lively devil knows it. Be that as it may, he is an excellent trail mount and loves to explore. He just has the need to give some things the stink eye.

As for 'calmer' that comes down to the horse's prior training, the horses ability (or want) to retain training, and/or your ability to maintain the horse's training.

And one will neva out muscle, even with a bit, a thousand pound animal.


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## Cammey

gottatrot said:


> @Cammey, you are a good horsewoman and will be a great one. I'm very glad you've decided to take up riding and working with horses. Dragon is already glad to have you.
> 
> It sounds like you did a great job on a nervous horse brought into a new environment and new herd situation. Almost every horse will get worked up by that, as you can see. I enjoy reading your perspective, it's a good one. Many people would post far differently after a similar experience. I could imagine the questions: "I've lost the bond with my horse...help!" or "Dramatic change in personality - horse has become a terror!" or "Do I need a new lesson horse?"
> You are doing extremely well, and handling things you have no business being able to handle yet (being facetious). Kudos.
> 
> You have the ability to see the bigger picture of what is going on in the horse's life versus focusing on the one detail which is the horse's response to a single lesson in the arena. That is key to understanding horses.


You humble me with that compliment @gottatrot. I'm definitely trying. 

I can understand why a lot of people would be more upset after a day like Saturday to be honest. It rattled me a bit too. I really disliked the fact I just had no real baseline of what to expect or how bad it was likely to get. If she started really kicking or bolting (instead of just speeding up and refusing to stop) would I be able to handle that? I didn’t know - I still don’t. I’m glad it didn’t end up going that way. It definitely helped me put into perspective some of the realities of “I want a sensitive/forward horse” and what that can look like on a bad day. I’m not presently deterred actually - but it did make concrete some of the downsides which previously I had only confronted in theory.

On the other hand, perhaps ironically, this weekend was honestly the first time I actually _did_ see just a glimmer of an actual bond with Dragon. It was when she trusted me on Sunday when I told her the scary things were nothing to be worried about and she seemed to genuinely believe me - actually relaxing a little as she went past and not worrying about things after that. I still have no illusions that this is special (nor should it be - she has *a lot* of riders, most of whom are much better than I and have been working with her longer) but it was still touching. 





sarahfromsc said:


> Work, and one knows what drinking the koolaide means....go along with the game plan or get fired/laid off.
> 
> Ask me how I know.
> 
> Well, cammy, you are way ahead of me! I ride daily, either schooling or on trail, and I am still trying to figure out what makes my little grey Arab spook. It changes daily. He looks good spooking and the crazy little lively devil knows it. Be that as it may, he is an excellent trail mount and loves to explore. He just has the need to give some things the stink eye.
> 
> As for 'calmer' that comes down to the horse's prior training, the horses ability (or want) to retain training, and/or your ability to maintain the horse's training.
> 
> And one will neva out muscle, even with a bit, a thousand pound animal.


I’d ask, but am aware you’re not a fan of story-time. 

I will say: hearing everyone’s comments regarding Arabs on here I am growing in both fear of the breed and respect for those who ride them. I know that Thoroughbreds and Arabs both tend to get grouped together into the ‘hot’ category but there definitely seems to be a bit of a gulf between those two in terms of reactiveness and their ability to turn on a dime. They’re such beautiful horses… but meep.

And yes, intellectually I know that one won’t outmuscle a horse. I was still surprised though that she was willing to rest that much of her weight directly on the bit - just given how dramatically she can respond to it at other times. This is the same horse who I accidentally jerked a rein a little and we ended up doing a 180 in place. It’s just strange to see the difference between that and her willingness to wrestle with me happen in practice.


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## Cammey

*Lesson 15: Boring by Design*

Tonight, Dragon was back to her usual self. She was somewhere between her relaxed-usual and her bouncy-usual. She was happy to go to the arena, even if it meant leaving her dinner - turning towards me and heading over as soon as I came by. She stood politely in cross-ties without overreacting. She was a happy horse again.

The lesson was… honestly almost a little boring. It was basically the same lesson we did last week Saturday and again this week Sunday. We worked on turning squarely around the leg and straightness on the quarter-line. I also practiced some rather awful looking leg-yeilds. I’m not sure why I was having trouble with them tonight, but I was. Overall though there was no disruptions and no new content. 

Dragon rode like she has every time except the past weekend - a smooth dream with occasional but non-threatening bouts of speeding up. Honestly it was good to reconnect with that joy again - to just be able to get that slightly flying-feeling that she can give when she gets into her stride posting trot. Jill seemed to want me to keep her _incredibly_ calm - which I succeeded at well enough to actually need to leg her up a few times to maintain speed. I worked (to only some avail) on getting my ankles super-low and on really trying to keep things steady. 

Essentially, tonight’s lesson was a template for what I’m supposed to do Thursday - and Jill really seemed focused on making 100% sure I felt completely comfortable and confident riding her again. It worked: The drive out there in the dark/rain was more perilous than anything that happened (or I expect to happen) once I get out there.

The good part is I feel ready for Thursday.


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## sarahfromsc

Arabs are given a bad rap. They are forward but not crazy, quick, athletic, nimble, did I say quick? and smart....usually smarter than most people. You can't bully them or fight them.

They are no harder or easier to ride than any other breed. Just different. Oh, and training/ riding one you better be smarter than the Arab, and be thinking three steps ahead, because that Arab is......lololol


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## Uze

Reading all your posts, I'm really interested to see where you go with the sport. I think you have the possibility to really excel at competing some day. Have you narrowed down which one interests you the most? I believe I've heard you talking about eventing?


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## Cammey

sarahfromsc said:


> Arabs are given a bad rap. They are forward but not crazy, quick, athletic, nimble, did I say quick? and smart....usually smarter than most people. You can't bully them or fight them.
> 
> They are no harder or easier to ride than any other breed. Just different. Oh, and training/ riding one you better be smarter than the Arab, and be thinking three steps ahead, because that Arab is......lololol


Having the opportunity to try to ride one is honestly on my to-do list now. They inspire such love and are so beautiful and yet sound so incredibly challenging.



Uze said:


> Reading all your posts, I'm really interested to see where you go with the sport. I think you have the possibility to really excel at competing some day. Have you narrowed down which one interests you the most? I believe I've heard you talking about eventing?


I'm still exploring that right now. Eventing is sort of the romantic fantasy I have when I think about riding - but I have no idea how reality (and the commitment involved) is going to mix with my actual life. There are just a lot of unknowns. The path I'm on currently, if I don't do anything to divert it, will lead me into show jumping, take me through some dressage movements (but not the full test unless I request it), and then optionally include cross-country schooling once I get to a level where I could reasonably attend that. So that's sort of the path I'm starting with - but I'm so early in it that right now I'm really just doing foundations.

But in the long run? No clue just yet. I might even end up diverting entirely to something like fox hunting, polo, or barrel racing... I know right now I'm drawn to a combination of precision and excitement. There are a lot of horse sports that fit that bill.


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## Uze

Cammey said:


> I'm still exploring that right now. Eventing is sort of the romantic fantasy I have when I think about riding - but I have no idea how reality (and the commitment involved) is going to mix with my actual life. There are just a lot of unknowns. The path I'm on currently, if I don't do anything to divert it, will lead me into show jumping, take me through some dressage movements (but not the full test unless I request it), and then optionally include cross-country schooling once I get to a level where I could reasonably attend that. So that's sort of the path I'm starting with - but I'm so early in it that right now I'm really just doing foundations.
> 
> But in the long run? No clue just yet. I might even end up diverting entirely to something like fox hunting, polo, or barrel racing... I know right now I'm drawn to a combination of precision and excitement. There are a lot of horse sports that fit that bill.


Absolutely. That's one thing I love about horse-back riding so much, there's so many things TO DO! I started out learning western pleasure (This was when I first learned to ride at around 9yrs old). It was nice, but it didn't feel right to me. So when I switched to an english dominated barn, I started learning english riding, and then moving into jumping. As a young teenager, jumping was exactly where I wanted to be. At the point in my life now, I'm in the trail riding phase. I like nice quiet rides on my gelding. And in the future, maybe about a year from now, I have another prospect I'm looking forward to. But that's a secret for now 

Riding is not a fluid thing, it can change all the time. There's so many aspects of it to explore. Maybe you'll find a love for endurance. The people who ride endurance (And the horses) are some SERIOUS athletes!

You can also take into account your particular horse. My horse hates going fast, he'd be miserable as a barrel racer. But on the trails? He really shines. He loves the trails. Maybe that's why people end up with so many horses, lol!


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## gottatrot

There is a wide range of personality within both Arabs and TBs. There are certain bloodlines in Arabs that are not very hot or spooky. Something I've learned about "hot" horses is that excitable and spooky are separate entities. Some horses are both, but some are only excitable and not spooky. Some are only sensitive and energetic but not excitable or spooky. Amore is all four, which makes her particularly difficult. But she comes from bloodlines that are heavy with champion halter and park horses. I don't know about Halla's bloodlines, but she is much less spooky. Her excitement rarely reaches the fever pitch of Amore's, but Amore calms down much faster. 
TBs also run the gamut, but often are less spooky than Arabs. They can be very excitable, but are a little less sensitive than Arabs, although they are a sensitive breed.

I've ridden quite a few Arabs and TBs. Some Arabs, especially from endurance or sport bloodlines have a nice balance of being very energetic but easily calmed down, and not very spooky. Others, such as Satin in my barn are very energetic but not spooky. Satin is almost impossible to calm down, but she rarely spooks at anything. She'll go along very fast but you will stay on. 
I rode a very nice Khemosabi granddaughter and she was energetic and sensitive but not spooky. 
When you do ride an Arab, ask about the personality and chances are you might meet one that is a calm and rational representative of the breed.

My friend's horse Nala is more spooky than many TBs. She is also very excitable and will never be a horse for an inexperienced rider. She's not that much different than many Arabs. I've also met some OTTBs and Arabs that are extremely calm, mellow, docile, and you can't get them excited if you try. Some people will try to tell you that those are the majority, and that the others you hear about are rare examples that haven't been handled properly. In my limited experiences, about half the TBs I've been around are calm and steady, 1/4 are excitable and a bit challenging, and 1/4 are very excitable, challenging and/or spooky. For Arabs, about half I've been around are excitable and a bit challenging, 1/4 are calm and steady, and 1/4 are very spooky, excitable and challenging.

I'd disagree with @sarahfromsc in that I find Arabs and TBs are usually more challenging to ride than many other breeds. The majority of QHs and stock horses I've been on, I would be happy to ride in any saddle, too big or small for me, any bit or bridle, bitless, whatever. They will be forgiving of a wide range of riders and errors. If someone told me they were fine bareback, I'll get on even if we'd just met. When I ride a TB or Arab I don't know, I make sure my stirrups are a good length, I'm comfortable with the bit and saddle being used, and that I have some inkling of the temperament. These horses can dart out from underneath you like lightning, or get worked up and take off for another state.


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## Cammey

Uze said:


> Absolutely. That's one thing I love about horse-back riding so much, there's so many things TO DO! I started out learning western pleasure (This was when I first learned to ride at around 9yrs old). It was nice, but it didn't feel right to me. So when I switched to an english dominated barn, I started learning english riding, and then moving into jumping. As a young teenager, jumping was exactly where I wanted to be. At the point in my life now, I'm in the trail riding phase. I like nice quiet rides on my gelding. And in the future, maybe about a year from now, I have another prospect I'm looking forward to. But that's a secret for now
> 
> Riding is not a fluid thing, it can change all the time. There's so many aspects of it to explore. Maybe you'll find a love for endurance. The people who ride endurance (And the horses) are some SERIOUS athletes!
> 
> You can also take into account your particular horse. My horse hates going fast, he'd be miserable as a barrel racer. But on the trails? He really shines. He loves the trails. Maybe that's why people end up with so many horses, lol!


Endurance trail riding is also an interesting area. I'm usually not as much an endurance sport fan in a general sense - but I do absolutely adore reading about the adventures of @phantomhorse13. No doubt endurance athletes are athletes - in fact, to be honest I usually find them a little intimidating. I've always been a better power-athlete than an endurance-athlete. I admire greatly their discipline and well... ability to endure... I'm more the 'wimp out after a 5K' type. :mrgreen:

Also agreed on needing to look into what's good for the horse in question - this is yet another reason why I have no real temptation to get a horse any time soon. I actually think I need to fully figure out myself and my ambitions before I really look at that. Realistically I doubt multiple horses will be in the picture for me - even one is a stretch. Further, this is actually one of the problems I see coming: let's say I want to get into eventing or even show jumping. Well, most of the horses I know that seriously compete get exercise 5-7 days a week for a couple hours a day, depending on their needs to have rest-days and what their turnout looks like. I'm not sure I can commit to anything that reliable. There may be ways to deal with this (free-lease out the horse to someone who would love to get them the exercise they need is my first thought) but there are just a whole lot of things to keep in mind. 




gottatrot said:


> There is a wide range of personality within both Arabs and TBs. There are certain bloodlines in Arabs that are not very hot or spooky. Something I've learned about "hot" horses is that excitable and spooky are separate entities. Some horses are both, but some are only excitable and not spooky. Some are only sensitive and energetic but not excitable or spooky. Amore is all four, which makes her particularly difficult. But she comes from bloodlines that are heavy with champion halter and park horses. I don't know about Halla's bloodlines, but she is much less spooky. Her excitement rarely reaches the fever pitch of Amore's, but Amore calms down much faster.
> 
> TBs also run the gamut, but often are less spooky than Arabs. They can be very excitable, but are a little less sensitive than Arabs, although they are a sensitive breed.


I'm glad you put that into words. That's the thing I've kind of been noticing and why Dragon being so spooky freaked me out a bit - she's normally really not terribly spooky. 

Throw a rock at the arena wall that lets out a loud bang on a normal day? *Eh, whatever.* Horse throws a fit next to her with a rider on? *Meh - Look I'm the good horse.* Cat jumps out of a tree and darn near spooks _me_? *Silly human*. Stuff falls on her hind-end while we're riding? *Gah, that's annoying, tail-swish to try to knock it off my rear-end but otherwise don't react... *

Before last weekend I actually would have said I suspected she wasn't terribly spook-prone at all - just really forward. Other than the play-spook I actually had never seen her react to anything stressful with anything other than her sort of 'get it done' attitude and asking for more contact on the bit/reassurance. 

But once she was worked up like that... yeah. And she took almost an hour to calm down. Being on high-alert for an hour is exhausting. 

But usually... steady as she goes. 



gottatrot said:


> When you do ride an Arab, ask about the personality and chances are you might meet one that is a calm and rational representative of the breed.
> 
> My friend's horse Nala is more spooky than many TBs. She is also very excitable and will never be a horse for an inexperienced rider. She's not that much different than many Arabs. I've also met some OTTBs and Arabs that are extremely calm, mellow, docile, and you can't get them excited if you try. Some people will try to tell you that those are the majority, and that the others you hear about are rare examples that haven't been handled properly. In my limited experiences, about half the TBs I've been around are calm and steady, 1/4 are excitable and a bit challenging, and 1/4 are very excitable, challenging and/or spooky. For Arabs, about half I've been around are excitable and a bit challenging, 1/4 are calm and steady, and 1/4 are very spooky, excitable and challenging.
> 
> I'd disagree with @sarahfromsc in that I find Arabs and TBs are usually more challenging to ride than many other breeds. The majority of QHs and stock horses I've been on, I would be happy to ride in any saddle, too big or small for me, any bit or bridle, bitless, whatever. They will be forgiving of a wide range of riders and errors. If someone told me they were fine bareback, I'll get on even if we'd just met. When I ride a TB or Arab I don't know, I make sure my stirrups are a good length, I'm comfortable with the bit and saddle being used, and that I have some inkling of the temperament. These horses can dart out from underneath you like lightning, or get worked up and take off for another state.


All very good points to keep in mind. There's such a diversity in the world of horses. Admittedly, getting a diversity of horses to ride is something I really hope to do some day. I am really in love with TBs right now - which is good, because that's basically what I have available - but I do kind of want to see the rest of the world before I get my heart set on anything. It's worth remembering that I will need multiple different perspectives on a breed before I can hope to generate too much of a generalizable opinion.


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## Avna

It's also a phenomenon that some people innately slow horses down and others speed them up. I learned there is a term for this: having a "hot seat" or a "cold seat". I am a cold seat person. I tend to make animals calmer, quieter and somewhat duller, I have to work hard to rev them up or sharpen them. It isn't anything I control -- I wish!. It is just a quality. It's been true with every species I've worked with. If you are a cold-seated person you may be able to ride a hotter horse safely, whereas a hot-seated person can make a lazier horse wake up without much effort. Just something to think about.


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## Cammey

Avna said:


> It's also a phenomenon that some people innately slow horses down and others speed them up. I learned there is a term for this: having a "hot seat" or a "cold seat". I am a cold seat person. I tend to make animals calmer, quieter and somewhat duller, I have to work hard to rev them up or sharpen them. It isn't anything I control -- I wish!. It is just a quality. It's been true with every species I've worked with. If you are a cold-seated person you may be able to ride a hotter horse safely, whereas a hot-seated person can make a lazier horse wake up without much effort. Just something to think about.


That honestly is fascinating. You now have me really wondering where in that spectrum I might fall into, and if it's close enough to either edge to classify.


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## sarahfromsc

You are still giving the Arab a bad rap, gotta. All breeds have lines that people will argue over. I can't remember if it was this forum or another I visit that there was a hot discussion over Hancock bred QHs. Some love them for their ability to go all day on a ranch, others think they are to difficult with to much buck.

So, if you try to ride a forward horse in first gear, you will frustrate that horse and turn it sour and end up with a hot mess.

I still say Arabs are given a bad rap. I still say they are no different than riding any other horse. I do not think one needs to make sure saddle and stirrups and bits are just 'right' to ride an Arab. With any breed, training, and the ability to hold that training is everything.

As for Knemosabi, some of his get were wonderful to work with. Some were flighty and spooky until they hit about four, some hit the ground broke. I worked on an Arab farm that relied on Khemo for their breeding program.

I found the mare made the difference. A nice minded mare and Khemo made a nice foal. A bad tempered mare and Khemo was a crap shoot.


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## gottatrot

sarahfromsc said:


> You are still giving the Arab a bad rap, gotta.
> 
> ...I still say Arabs are given a bad rap. I still say they are no different than riding any other horse. I do not think one needs to make sure saddle and stirrups and bits are just 'right' to ride an Arab. With any breed, training, and the ability to hold that training is everything.


It seems like being truthful in evaluation is not giving a horse a "bad rap." It would seem irresponsible of me to tell someone that getting on a hot little Arab is the same as riding their mellow QH that can hardly be prodded out of a sleepy jog. I say this as a person who owns two Arabs of the hotter variety, and I don't find their personalities off-putting. It's just that I understand it is not for everyone. As @Cammey has said, not everyone wants to be alert and working throughout each ride. Some people just want to relax and rely on their horse to be steady regardless.

It's not all about training, it's also about reactiveness and sensitivity. I've seen a person put a bit on a stock horse that was far too large, adjusted wrong and it rattled around and jangled against the horse's teeth. The horse wasn't entirely happy but his reactions were minor - facial expressions, didn't go forward easily. I've also seen a similar situation happen to an Arab trainer at my barn (the bit fit, but it was not adjusted quite right). That horse reacted by rearing, pulling away, throwing her head violently around. Both horses were at the similar stage of training. Reactive horses are less forgiving of mistakes by nature.

@Avna has good points about how the rider affects the horse with their seat. Of course, that goes within the horse's personality as well; it's going to be a variation of how the horse is and not something out of their character. Dragon isn't going to become a sleepy old nag just because someone different rides her. Which is why I describe riding horses that are mellow or hot. If it were all up to me and my seat, they would all behave similarly and go out the way I prefer. I might give a a little more zest to a dull horse than a cold seated rider. But he will still be quite dull compared to Halla.


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## sarahfromsc

As I said ALL breeds have lines that are hotly contested amount that breed's devotees. Arabs are no different than any other breed. There a good, bad, and ugly. There are lines that are hotly discussed amoung us devotees.

I have a Bey Shah Grandson. I have been told his get are kooky. I haven't found that to be. I have worked with Khemo foals, some were wonderful, others would spook at a bucket because it was in a different spot by three inches. One would not cross tie. Ground tie him, or just lope the lead role over a rail, and he was an angel. Cross ties..........so just because Khemo was great doesn't mean his foals will be as he was.q

Any breed with a beginner can be hot, spooky, difficult, untrained, retrained badly, etc.

Arabs are quick with their feet, nimble with their bodies and minds, have memories like an elephant, and like to move out. Keep them in ' check' or bore them, and a rider will have issues.

And I have seen a stock horse run its rider into a wall due to bit issues. So what is your point exactly?


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## bsms

Trooper is our Steady Eddie. He is 3/4 Arabian, 1/4 Appy. Bandit is 1/2 Arabian, 1/2 Mustang. He is far more independent and involved. Not so much spooky as very suspicious. Mia was purebred Arabian and a spook monster, but I still think she had a few wires not connected right in her noggin. She could spin violently 720 degrees, then look at me as if to ask what I had done to her. Lilly was a purebred Arabian mare and not at all spooky - but VERY much a "Please & Thank You" horse. Get harsh with her and she'd fight you to the death. Be polite and she'd give everything she had to offer.

My neighbors used to ask my why my horses spent so much time racing around the corral when everyone else had horses who just stood there, hours on end, with their fly-mask covered heads halfway to the ground. I'd reply, "_Arabians. They aren't like most horses._" The true answer was and is more complex, but there is some truth in my shorthand reply.

Working with hot horses of any breed isn't like working average horses. I received a lot of well-meaning and totally wrong advice on Mia from people who had never ridden or touched a horse like her. "_Get a bigger whip!_" wasn't going to work with Mia. I tried and I know. "_Just push him past things_" might work somewhat with Bandit, but he was pretty darn spooky when he got here. It has taken a LOT of explaining to get Bandit past his "_I defend myself_" reactions and into a mostly calm discussion instead. But Bandit is and always will be independent to an unusual degree. He might bite my butt someday, but he'll never kiss it!

".._.did I say quick? and smart....usually smarter than most people. You can't bully them or fight them.._." - @sarahfromsc

I agree, and this is why they ARE more challenging to ride well than a lot of other horses. The folks who told me to "Get a bigger whip" were telling me the truth - as they had experienced it with colder types of horses. I honestly think the techniques that work with Arabians work well with most horses, but many riders never bother to learn them because they can get away with a bigger whip.

My farrier loves mules. He says a lot of horse riders get their butts handed to them by a mule because a mule will not tolerate what many horses will. He said a good mule was a fantastic friend, but a rider had to choose - make mutually acceptable compromises or fight. He also thinks mustangs and Arabians are closer to the mule side of the spectrum than most stock horses.


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## StephaniHren

Avna said:


> It's also a phenomenon that some people innately slow horses down and others speed them up. I learned there is a term for this: having a "hot seat" or a "cold seat".


This is a really interesting concept that I've never heard of before! I'm definitely a "hot seat" kind of person, which is probably why I tend to favor lazy horses over energetic ones. It's a lot easier for me to ask for more enthusiasm than it is for me to tell a horse to settle down. (Plus over reactive horses tend to make me nervous, which just makes them _more_ nervous.)

Excited to hear about how your first lease ride goes, Cammey!


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## Cammey

@gottatrot, @sarahfromsc, and @bsms - Thank you for all the interesting discussion on Arabs temperament. It's good to see a lot of points of view on this one, as it seems controversial all over.

In a bit of humor, when I mentioned to Jill that I had a friend who was looking at an Arabian and an Arabian/Mustang mix she mentioned that I've got bold friends as she finds the breed hard to handle... then she sort of caught herself and said "Then again, they'd probably say that about my OTTBs". I just thought it was funny. 

I will say this whole discussion has me thinking I want to meet and ride a lot of horses. I'm hoping Jill will soon decide it's time to try putting me on a few new guys - especially as I settle into riding Dragon frequently. These will all be OTTBs selected for sport jumping most likely - but at least I will get to see some diversity within that narrow range. I will say all this has definitely piqued my curiosity.


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## Cammey

*First Solo Ride*

The moon was bright, and I have pretty good night vision. These will be relevant to the story. 

I cut out of work about five minutes early, having ordered and scarfed pizza while technically still on the clock (the benefits of work-from-home). As I headed out I was faced with roughly equal amounts of trepidation regarding the drive out there and actually riding. The weather had dropped firmly into ‘cold’ and we had our first light snow of the season that actually stuck. I was worried the twisting roads in the dark would be slick and possibly treacherous. 

When I got there everything was dark - the stable, the arena. The only light on was a single floodlight which glared onto the walkway between the two and unfortunately wrecked night-vision if it was in line of sight. Heading over into the barn I realized somewhat to my dismay that there were no horses in there. Heading out to the normal paddocks which act as the mare pen I realized those too were empty.

Well ****. 

So by this point I was flat-out-confused. 

Now, I mentioned in a prior post that the internal paddock areas are divided up with electric wire rather than full fencing. The first thing I realized is that this is not the easiest thing to see in the dark when cast against a dark background of paddock. I could see the posts, but ended up moving incredibly carefully and slowly to be sure there were no T-intersections coming up. I have no desire to figure out what electric wire feels like, and to be honest this felt more than a little treacherous. 

I spent 15 minutes wandering around in the bitter cold like an idiot before I headed back to the barn, grabbed my cell-phone, and texted Jill and ask her if she happens to know where Dragon has gotten to. She responds promptly that she should either be inside or out with the mares/ponies and tells me I can contact the barn owner if I get totally lost. By this point I take my cell phone back out to the paddocks with me, and discover that its flashlight feature provides just enough light to allow me to see the wire fencing pretty clearly even with my floodlight-wrecked vision, and proceed to continue wandering back a bit farther afield.

About three minutes later I see my first horse - who I recognize as Bronze due to his incredibly flashy (zebra-striped) blanket. He’s off in one of the really large paddock areas that I had never seen used before (I might even call it ‘pasture’) and the only reason I spot him is because he and a friend are heading over to the water closer to his gate. With a renewed confidence that there must be horses out here _somewhere_ I begin carefully and slowly navigating through the unknown paddock structure, cursing myself for not having thought to scope the layout one of the times I was here during the day. Eventually as I get farther out from the night-vision-ruining floodlight realize I actually can see moderately well, even sans cell phone - though my color vision still isn’t great.

Eventually, I find the mare herd in an unfamiliar but larger paddock. I don’t see Dragon in there, but I’m reasonably confident I’ve found the right herd. It takes me another five minutes to find the actual gate (it’s all the way back at the other end - this is a large paddock and they’re all clustered on the opposite side of it). 

I debate for a minute if I seriously am going to try to herd catch a horse in the dark, alone in the freezing cold, out of a group of horses I don’t know much about other than that they pick on my horse, while surrounded by an electric fence. I take couple minutes to really analyze and make a judgement call regarding the risk I am considering taking before deciding to go forward with this plan. 

The one thing I do have on my side here is time - and I take full advantage of it. I walk around the paddock area twice until I’m very confident where all the electric wire is, where the gates are, and I’ve memorized the internal layout - the shelter, the water-bins, etc. I let my eyes fully adjust to the darkness, since I won’t be able to play with my phone while I’m out there (though I do bring it for safety’s sake to call for help if need be). I also think (but am not certain) that I spot Dragon in this process - hanging out at the far edge of the herd. While I feel a little bad for her exile, this is super convenient for me. 

The horses here were turned out with halters, which isn’t Jill’s usual practice but seems to happen at this barn, so I just make sure I have a lead rope and I carefully make my way out, staying well away from the fence line. The ground is sort of miserable - uneven and just starting to really freeze - but after about thirty feet I figure out how to walk on it without too much trouble. There’s a lot of paddock here and I get quite a bit of time to accumulate to my surroundings.

Dragon, bless her amazing heart, sees me a little ways out and takes several steps towards me - making herself easy to spot. I am about 90% confident I have identified the right horse at this point, mostly based on personality. Understand, Dragon is one of several chestnut horses here, and I know from conversation that there are 3 horses with the exact same blanket she has. Jill actually complimented me Saturday on having been able to distinguish her on sight _in broad daylight_. Worst case I figure I grab the wrong (very friendly) horse, realize my mistake once I get back to the light in the barn, give the horse a treat or two and then release her back into the herd. 

Another pony - who I recognize as one of the horses chasing off Dragon on Sunday - also heads over. Honestly, I’m possibly a little more assertive/aggressive than I need to be in keeping her back. She doesn’t respond to verbal commands, rope twirling, or gently hitting her with the rope, so I thwack her fairly firmly and make her backup several steps, then make her back up again for good measure. I might have just hit a pony genuinely trying to be friendly, but I just had no interest/patience in arguing with a horse I don’t know in the dark. I was also getting a bit of stink-eye from the horse I believe is lead-mare (though she didn’t come over) and I wasn’t wanting to give anyone an inch. If I was going to be taking a risk being out here I was going to do it in the safest way possible - even if not optimal in other fashions.

Fortunately, we leave without any trouble, Dragon seeming quite happy to be led out (though she does request a bit more rope to deal with the footing - but I feel that’s kind of fair, since this footing is probably even worse for a horse than it is for me). 

As soon as we step foot outside the paddock things start going exactly as planned. Grooming her up I can tell her nerves are somewhere between Sunday and Tuesday - a little more sensitive than her truly calm self, but generally happy to see me and be in the grooming stall. She’s overreacting a touch in the cross-ties, but not that wild swinging I saw before. I take Jill’s advice and don’t let her overstep, showing her exactly where I want her to stand - really trying to play leader, which Jill tells me is reassuring. She seems content with that and settles down. I take my sweet time in grooming her, but she’s remarkably clean all considered - at this point I’m mostly just doing things for the routine of them. We tack up and I double-check everything since I am alone out here, and we head out.

Once in the arena I basically run an even easier version of Tuesday’s lesson minus the leg yeilds. I skip those simply because there’s no good line to do them on with the current jump-setup and I want lots of space to work with. Internally, I am mostly focusing on trying to find my real balance in each gait. In Western Jog I’m focused on letting my weight sway with the seat, not bouncing at all, and trying to keep even pressure on her back. In Posting Trot I have gotten to the point where I can really feel when I am either ahead of or behind Dragon’s motion while posting - but I still frequently fall subtly in either direction. I’m not sure how visible this is from the ground - but I can really feel it. Usually we’re too busy focusing on my legs and steering for me to take the time to work on it, but once I get out on my own I let myself really pay attention to that shifting and try to find the sweet spot. We take frequent walk and Western Jog breaks. I do make her halt a few times just to make sure I’m solidly in control. 

Dragon decides one of the lines through the jumps is the tiniest bit spooky - so we ride it a bunch of times. But for the most part, she’s a good girl. Not the sort of ‘worryingly good’ she was when she’s extremely sensitive - but just good. It’s a pleasant and uneventful ride lasting about 45 minutes - so almost exactly a normal lesson worth of riding - though I only realize that when I check my phone after I get back. (There’s no clock in the arena. Note to self: buy a watch). 

I take her back, untack, groom her until she’s completely dry (though to be honest, she barely broke a sweat during all this - this was a very light workout for her), put her blanket back on, spoil her a little with treats, and go to take her back.

My only problem? She is not happy to go back outside to the paddock. She goes outside just fine, but at the paddock gate I end up having to be assertive to get her to follow me in. Objectively I realize it’s probably the footing she doesn’t like (she’s always a bit particular about it) but it’s hard not to project and think about how I’m leading her out into the cold and a herd that picks on her. When I walk her in a ways and let her go, she just stands there, not heading back towards the herd. I feel guilty.

I head back into the arena, clean up some droppings (not from Dragon, but from someone else who didn’t do it), sweep out the grooming area, turn off all the lights, and head back towards my car. Dragon is still standing there on the other end of the paddock from the herd and I feel even a little guiltier, but don’t see a good way to rectify my guilt so I head home. 

So, I survived my first solo-ride. Honestly, the ride itself was the least concerning part of the whole experience. If I need to do that night-catching again I suspect it will go much easier now that I know the layout and where the horses will be, but I probably should do some more prep while it’s actually light out so I understand what I’m doing a bit better. 

*Afterward*
Dragon’s hesitation out in the paddock had me worried - I’m leaving her out there in the dark and cold. So I end up doing a bit of research on things like how horses tolerate weather. 

So, for the record, it was in the low/mid twenties last night with fairly calm winds and occasional snow flurries. Dragon is unclipped (her winter coat is so ridiculously soft…) and not at all underweight (in fact, for a Thoroughbred sport-horse, she’s gotten a little heavier than the ideal - Jill says she could lose a few pounds). There’s a shelter out in paddock area that the horses weren’t bothering to use. She wasn’t shivering, and she was in a very nice and fairly heavy-weight blanket for the night. She’s taken in to be groomed and exercised literally every single day, as well as brought in twice a day for individual concentrate meals (which also includes some privately-fed hay for her right now - I actually saw a meal was waiting out pre-measured in her stall when I went to find her. I’m not sure if it’s for a late meal tonight or tomorrow’s breakfast). 

So basically, given that even _blanketing_ shouldn’t be anywhere near necessary under these conditions, and she has a really nice and warm blanket... I am totally fussing for no good reason. That helped me feel a lot better as I went to bed.


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## NavigatorsMom

You are brave to go out on your first solo ride in the dark and at a somewhat new place - very safe and conscientious too though it sounded like! Glad it went well for you


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## gottatrot

Again I am impressed by your ability to assess a situation, try to stay safe, and yet not be deterred by daunting circumstances. Great job riding Dragon, it sounds like a productive time. It really is amazing you are barely "green broke" and yet are out there gathering up a horse from a herd in the dark and riding alone. 

New people often have difficulty remembering how to put on saddles, blankets and bridles for _months_, based on my experience trying to teach others. 

It would be concerning for even very experienced people to go out in a strange herd in the dark. It is always good to err on the side of being more assertive with a loose horse that seems too interested in coming up to you rather than being too passive and ending up with them running over you. 

I am guessing Dragon's reluctance to go back to the field had less to do with physical comfort and more to do with current herd dynamics. Hopefully she will find a place where she fits in soon. Someone is bound to befriend her.


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## tinyliny

I am impressed, too, but also worried. I would not like it if I owned that barn and you were riding alone at night there. if something were to happen, there'd be no one there to know and to help you. and, you ARE still new. this whole thing makes me quesy to think about .

you just can't believe how fast things can go from "isn't this fun?" to "oh no!" sorry, but I don't want to rain on your parade. you'll do what seems ok to you, and more power to you, but were it my barn, I'd never allow a client to ride alone , totally alone, at night. only if she/he were very experienced.


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## NavigatorsMom

Meant to add this in my other post, but since you are going to start riding alone more you should really make sure you have a way to carry your phone with you while you ride. It's not going to do much good for you if it waits in the barn or your car! I find arm bands (like for working out) can work well, and are cheaper than the equestrian specific phone holsters. Of course in winter you can put it in a coat pocket. It's good to have on you though. 

I think about when I started riding and would just get dropped off at the barn to ride with nothing but a phone in the barn. Seems crazy now! But it was just a different time. Now I always text my boyfriend whenever I'm about to get on and give him an estimation of when I'll be done, and then another once horse is back in the pasture and I'm heading home. It's good to have someone who knows where you are and when you should be done when you are alone with horses, just too much that could go wrong! 

That's not to scare you off of course, just want you to be safe


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## Cammey

NavigatorsMom said:


> You are brave to go out on your first solo ride in the dark and at a somewhat new place - very safe and conscientious too though it sounded like! Glad it went well for you


Thank you! I’m trying to be as safe as I can.




gottatrot said:


> Again I am impressed by your ability to assess a situation, try to stay safe, and yet not be deterred by daunting circumstances. Great job riding Dragon, it sounds like a productive time. It really is amazing you are barely "green broke" and yet are out there gathering up a horse from a herd in the dark and riding alone.
> 
> New people often have difficulty remembering how to put on saddles, blankets and bridles for _months_, based on my experience trying to teach others.


Honestly it’s comments like this that make me feel better. You might laugh, but actually getting the tack on properly is an area that I struggled with a little - specifically getting the saddle forward enough... I also still remember that time I almost turned Dragon out with her saddle still on. 



gottatrot said:


> It would be concerning for even very experienced people to go out in a strange herd in the dark. It is always good to err on the side of being more assertive with a loose horse that seems too interested in coming up to you rather than being too passive and ending up with them running over you.


The more I think about this the more glad I am for how I handled it honestly. I seem to lean more towards the passive/too gentle side unless I start feeling threatened. Jill has said this is hard for everyone to get right at first and she’d rather I make the mistake of asking too gently too many times rather than being too harsh to start out - it’s a better set of mistakes to make, especially for a beginner working on sensitive horses. But yeah, I think surrounded by an unfamiliar herd is an exception. 



gottatrot said:


> I am guessing Dragon's reluctance to go back to the field had less to do with physical comfort and more to do with current herd dynamics. Hopefully she will find a place where she fits in soon. Someone is bound to befriend her.



I hope so as well. Jill was theorizing that when Dragon came into the herd she may have tried to assert dominance right off the bat (‘push it’) and that this is what has resulted in her being chased off so hard and so persistently. So it’s entirely possible she started this - but for now she’s very much on the outside most of the time. I’m just glad the situation is being watched closely. 





tinyliny said:


> I am impressed, too, but also worried. I would not like it if I owned that barn and you were riding alone at night there. if something were to happen, there'd be no one there to know and to help you. and, you ARE still new. this whole thing makes me quesy to think about .
> 
> you just can't believe how fast things can go from "isn't this fun?" to "oh no!" sorry, but I don't want to rain on your parade. you'll do what seems ok to you, and more power to you, but were it my barn, I'd never allow a client to ride alone , totally alone, at night. only if she/he were very experienced.


To be honest with you, I don't even really disagree. The timeslot that I'm going to be riding in is narrow and well known - it's a 2-3 hour slot weekly - so it shouldn't be a surprise that I'm out there. I was honestly kind of hoping there'd be someone else out doing either a lease ride or a horse-training ride, but I wasn't at all surprised when there was not. You say I can't believe how fast... I'd say roughly at the speed of that horse teleportation spook + the time to fall and land on a jumping fence. This is why I've been making such a big deal about getting things solid and not being willing to ride a lot of things without a trainer present, even though to be honest simply staying on the horse has thus far rarely been in question. I'm quite aware of the increased risk being out there by myself brings into the picture. 

About the only thing I'm doing to mitigate this is riding with my cell phone. I figure the odds of me becoming unconscious while wearing a helmet, while not zero, are relatively low. One thing I probably should do is put the barn owner's number, rather than just my trainer's number (since she's about 20 minutes away) in there - but at this point my basic plan is to do an assessment on how bad I'm hurt and make a call for who I want to drag into the situation - be that a friend, my trainer, the barn owner, or (worst case) 911. Having been seriously hurt and having to make calls like this before, I trust myself not to panic when I'm injured - because it won't be the first time I've had to look down at myself and ask 'is it broken' and have the answer be 'yes'. This is part of how you get an introvert like me considering herself more a 'social exerciser' by preference. 

The short version is I've thought about it. I’d prefer another option as well - but if my options are ride alone or don’t ride at all, I’m going to go for riding alone and just try to be careful about it. 



NavigatorsMom said:


> Meant to add this in my other post, but since you are going to start riding alone more you should really make sure you have a way to carry your phone with you while you ride. It's not going to do much good for you if it waits in the barn or your car! I find arm bands (like for working out) can work well, and are cheaper than the equestrian specific phone holsters. Of course in winter you can put it in a coat pocket. It's good to have on you though.
> 
> I think about when I started riding and would just get dropped off at the barn to ride with nothing but a phone in the barn. Seems crazy now! But it was just a different time. Now I always text my boyfriend whenever I'm about to get on and give him an estimation of when I'll be done, and then another once horse is back in the pasture and I'm heading home. It's good to have someone who knows where you are and when you should be done when you are alone with horses, just too much that could go wrong!
> 
> That's not to scare you off of course, just want you to be safe


Yep, I kept my cell phone with me - I’m a little worried about it breaking during a fall, but figured it was honestly unlikely. The arm-band is a very good idea. I actually already have one somewhere, I just need to dig it out of my exercise gear. For now I’ve just been sticking my phone in my pocket, which admittedly I was a little worried about it falling out of (I was riding in a hoodie without zip pockets). 

My boyfriend knows I’m out but it’s hard to give an estimate for when I’ll be back that isn’t a wide range. I’m also a little worried - if he called me while I was riding, would the sound of my phone possibly spook the horse? My phone was on silent non-vibrate for that reason - I did not want a text message spooking her. It was almost eerily quiet out there to the point that I ended up talking to Dragon throughout the ride - partially just so there was some sound besides our breathing and her hoof-falls. 

And no, the cautions are very much appreciated to be honest - they give me some perspective.

I have a friend out in Denver who I know regularly rides out alone at night, and have regularly fussed about it. Now, the horse being ridden here is not exactly well-broke (100 day mustang challenge as of a few months ago) which is my real area of paranoia… but I am being forced to realize and acknowledge my own hypocrisy here. 

I wish I had someone to go out riding with, but for now it’s going to be solo.


----------



## tinyliny

so, the only time you get to ride Dragon is at night? I must have missed that . I didn't read every post, sorry.

how often is she ridden?

I probably wouldn't ride alone at night. might be ghosts hanging around. 
just kidding, but there's an overall sort of creepy feeling at the deserted arena, at night. but, since i DO have chances to ride at other times, I might not feel as 'driven' to get in that night time ride as you are.


----------



## Uze

I personally ride all the time at night, and I live alone. But I do take precautions, I always wear a headlamp since I don't have good lights out there, I keep my cellphone on me, and I don't go on the road or anything, just stick to my property. Now like tinyliny I'm not sure how comfortable I am with a new person doing that alone, no matter how good the new person is, but that's just my opinion. 

Also I like the atmosphere of barns at night, it's very peaceful without all the ruckus of day time.


----------



## Cammey

tinyliny said:


> so, the only time you get to ride Dragon is at night? I must have missed that . I didn't read every post, sorry.
> 
> how often is she ridden?
> 
> I probably wouldn't ride alone at night. might be ghosts hanging around.
> just kidding, but there's an overall sort of creepy feeling at the deserted arena, at night. but, since i DO have chances to ride at other times, I might not feel as 'driven' to get in that night time ride as you are.


I have a full time job that involves me working until 6 pm Monday->Friday. The barn is a 45 minute drive, meaning functionally I can get there by 7 pm if I scarf food and rush. Twilight where I live is currently just after 5 pm. So by the time I get there I will be riding at night every time.

I actually do have some news on this in which I will be able to ride a little bit more on the weekends, but basically for my primary riding times it’s going to be at night. 

Dragon is ridden literally every day either in lessons or by lease riders, usually for a few hours a day. Her busiest day is Sunday where she has 5 lessons which are exclusively on her. She’s got a couple lessons only she can do Saturday AM, and then my lesson Tuesday evening. She’s leased out Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday to various students (now including me).

In addition to these fixed schedules, she’s an option for the more advanced riders during their lessons at other times - so it’s possible she can be ridden even more than that. It’s a busy schedule for her, but she apparently benefits from that much exercise. 





Uze said:


> I personally ride all the time at night, and I live alone. But I do take precautions, I always wear a headlamp since I don't have good lights out there, I keep my cellphone on me, and I don't go on the road or anything, just stick to my property. Now like tinyliny I'm not sure how comfortable I am with a new person doing that alone, no matter how good the new person is, but that's just my opinion.
> 
> Also I like the atmosphere of barns at night, it's very peaceful without all the ruckus of day time.


The nice thing is that the actual riding I’m doing is in a lighted indoor arena - it’s just the catching that is out in the dark. That said, is a headlamp an acceptable idea for going out and catching horses? I don’t want to blind them or freak them out - but if that’s an option it could be seriously appealing. 

I can’t quite decide if I love or hate how quiet the barn is. I think familiarity will breed contentment, but for now I kind of wish I could play some quiet music so I could have a little background noise.


----------



## Uze

Cammey said:


> The nice thing is that the actual riding I’m doing is in a lighted indoor arena - it’s just the catching that is out in the dark. That said, is a headlamp an acceptable idea for going out and catching horses? I don’t want to blind them or freak them out - but if that’s an option it could be seriously appealing.
> 
> I can’t quite decide if I love or hate how quiet the barn is. I think familiarity will breed contentment, but for now I kind of wish I could play some quiet music so I could have a little background noise.


Someday I'm gonna put lights out there, but my to-do list is already too long lol. Anywho, you definitely don't want to shine the light in their faces, so when I'm actually around my horses, I angle the light so that it's above their head, or on the ground. And when I'm on their back it doesn't matter since they won't be looking directly at the light. 

Nothing wrong with playing a little music  If I'm not actively "working" my horse, but just leisurely riding around, I'll throw on some music!


----------



## Horsef

I often ride alone at night, without lights in the outdoor school. I am novice as well, but I do trust my horse not to freak out. The way I started is having my instructor ride first and report back on the behavior. Then I rode with my instructor present and now I just ride. I do carry a mobile phone on me, just in case. The biggest danger I faced so far is falling over a bucket off of my own two feet, so beware


----------



## Speed Racer

Sounds like Dragon's being badly overworked. Every living thing needs rest, and even horses in trail strings get at least one day off a week.

I can't believe a supposedly knowledgeable BO/BM would make an animal work that hard, long, and for different riders with varying degrees of skill. The animal is likely to break down physically or even mentally.


----------



## sarahfromsc

Speed Racer said:


> Sounds like Dragon's being badly overworked. Every living thing needs rest, and even horses in trail strings get at least one day off a week.
> 
> I can't believe a supposedly knowledgeable BO/BM would make an animal work that hard, long, and for different riders with varying degrees of skill. The animal is likely to break down physically or even mentally.


I was thinking she is more than earning her keep, along with the keep of three other horses!


----------



## Cammey

Uze said:


> Someday I'm gonna put lights out there, but my to-do list is already too long lol. Anywho, you definitely don't want to shine the light in their faces, so when I'm actually around my horses, I angle the light so that it's above their head, or on the ground. And when I'm on their back it doesn't matter since they won't be looking directly at the light.
> 
> Nothing wrong with playing a little music  If I'm not actively "working" my horse, but just leisurely riding around, I'll throw on some music!


Hmm, that may make the light option something a little trickier to manage. I still may need to think about something like this. I’m also not sure how much longer they’ll be able to get turnout - we’re under winter weather advisory, so we’ll see.

I may see what my trainer/the bo’s thoughts are on a little soft music… 





Horsef said:


> I often ride alone at night, without lights in the outdoor school. I am novice as well, but I do trust my horse not to freak out. The way I started is having my instructor ride first and report back on the behavior. Then I rode with my instructor present and now I just ride. I do carry a mobile phone on me, just in case. The biggest danger I faced so far is falling over a bucket off of my own two feet, so beware


Yeah, I will say the catching was definitely scarier than the actual riding. 





Speed Racer said:


> Sounds like Dragon's being badly overworked. Every living thing needs rest, and even horses in trail strings get at least one day off a week.
> 
> I can't believe a supposedly knowledgeable BO/BM would make an animal work that hard, long, and for different riders with varying degrees of skill. The animal is likely to break down physically or even mentally.


To be honest, at this point I trust that the people taking care of her are concerned for her welfare and are managing things carefully and appropriately. That's basically what I've discovered every time I've fussed at it - a lot of awareness and careful attention regarding her care. At no point does any of this seem careless or unconcerned with her either physically or mentally. I suspect the hopes are for this horse to be one of the matriarchs of this place for a good long time - people seem very concerned with keeping her healthy and happy. 



sarahfromsc said:


> I was thinking she is more than earning her keep, along with the keep of three other horses!


She's basically one of two top lesson horses at this place - it's her and the pony Cookie. So yes, she really is. In pure dollars, I suspect your statement is literally true - she probably earns about 3 horses worth of board in lesson fees every month, and then she's leased out to partially cover her own. This is part of how this place is able to operate. She also seems to genuinely be happy and content to go out into the arena though - so I'm not at all sure that's a bad thing. 

But yes, she plays the role of schoolmaster at this stable and is quite possibly it's top earner (again: her or Cookie - not sure which), including supporting some of the horses being let down off the track, etc.


----------



## tinyliny

that is a lot to expect from one horse, what you've described as her typical workload. it's not the hours ridden. horses are really much stronger than we think, and 3 hours of trotting around an arena , with lot of rests for trainer /student gabbing is not big deal. what concerns me is having that many different people riding her. she must be an extraordinary creature to tolerate that with as good a work ethic as she apparently has.

most horses get soured after awhile. especially with riders of differing skill levels. each rider wants that long canter. or , each one is trying to learn things, or thinks they are going to 'train' or improve the horse's way of going. school horses often develop ways of going that work for them becuase they HAVE to protect themselves from the student's hands or rough seats. admittedly, this is more applicable to horses used more for beginners.

I guess, if you are using a horse that is also used by 5 or 6 different persons, you really have to be fair to the hrose and not expect that you are going to train it to go one way, when it goes a totally different way with the majority of persons who ride it, and they accept this way of going, or, even encourage it.


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## sarahfromsc

She must be the mythical unicorn blowing rainbows.

Mine? All those different riders, all the different riders doing different things. Makes me chuckle.

He doesn't suffer fools that is for sure. 

He is a great teacher because he will do things, because he demands you ask correctly. If you don't, well he just keeps doing whatever. When I am learning a new skill which means he is also Learning new skill, we look like ****. my coach can get on him and he is beautiful to watch. 

Yea, not a school master.


----------



## Speed Racer

You can say all you want about them caring and being concerned for the animal's welfare, but nobody with any modicum of experience or true compassion would expect a horse to keep that kind of grueling schedule.

That, plus them letting a complete newbie catch and ride a horse IN THE DARK tells me they're careless and unconcerned about their charges, or completely ignorant and just blithely going on their way until they get blindsided with a lawsuit because someone got hurt/killed.

No professional trainer/BO/BM would allow any of that to happen. If this is what you're experiencing, then you need to run, not walk away from these people. 

You're a rank newbie regardless of how much 'natural talent' they claim you have, and nobody with any professionalism is going to risk burning out their best horse, or let some beginner ride on their own, especially at night.


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## gottatrot

She's not riding the horse in the dark, just catching her. There is nothing particularly dangerous about a well lit arena after dark, I've ridden in them many times over the years. I don't believe horses differentiate between a lit arena in the dark versus when it is daylight outside. Many big horse shows have classes going all night long.

Head lamps are fine, we use them a lot to feed horses and clean sheds at night. The horses look a bit dazed if you stare at them and forget the light is shining right into their eyes. The creepiest thing is if you forget there is a very black horse in the field and suddenly realize they're standing right next to you. 

I agree that many horses would burn out having all those different riders, but it does sound like Dragon handles it fine. It sounds like the trainer has taught each rider how to ride this horse and also evaluated them carefully before allowing them to use her on their own. Which means there is probably a lot more consistency between riders than if she were simply leased out to people who did not also take lessons on her.

Dragon also sounds like she is reliable all on her own. I've known several horses that will just take care of people and I would not worry about any beginner handling or riding them. 
Two horses I know, Beau and Fancy will take care of any human they are around. Fancy helps emotionally disturbed kids. They will sometimes drop to the ground suddenly or scream, or even throw something and Fancy will not move until they are calm, and will nose them gently. Beau will shift his weight under riders that are unstable to keep them balanced. 

My horses are kind, but would accidentally injure people that Fancy and Beau easily take care of. I've ridden both horses bareback with only a halter and lead rope to do things I'd never dream of trying on most horses. Even among a herd of rowdy, loose horses, or through a parking area at a big event with lots of cars, trailers and commotion. You could send out either horse all alone into the woods with a beginner rider and expect them to come home safely.

Beau likes people. He doesn't mind if six or seven different kids ride him each week, kindly overlooks mistakes and is solidly himself no matter what the rider does. Somehow he has learned that the correct way is correct no matter what the rider does, and riders don't teach him anything anymore. He teaches them. 
Dragon doesn't sound quite that rock solid, but she still seems to be doing a great job. Hopefully the owners will watch her for signs of burnout and find her a nice home with only one rider once her career is over. Perhaps they only mean for this schedule to continue for a year or two.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

It's all fine and good to be riding in a well lit arena but catching a horse in the dark in a herd of other horses is asking for trouble and asking to get hurt.


----------



## Whinnie

Having learned that Dragon has several riders, I am curious to know if she responds to each of them as she does to you, Cammey, whether under saddle, on the ground or catching her. Do you have conversations with the others who ride her? I know I would be comparing notes with other riders. It would be interesting to see if she has favorites or is the same to everyone all around.


That is an interesting concept, that a trainer can train all riders to ride exactly the same way. I guess I always thought that each individual has their own style of riding because of personality, age, body type, balance, confidence and a number of other things that make each of us unique. That is fascinating, I wish I could find a great instructor to help me advance as I am still struggling with my progress.


----------



## gottatrot

Whinnie said:


> That is an interesting concept, that a trainer can train all riders to ride exactly the same way. *I guess I always thought that each individual has their own style of riding because of personality, age, body type, balance, confidence and a number of other things that make each of us unique.* That is fascinating, I wish I could find a great instructor to help me advance as I am still struggling with my progress.


I would agree that no two people ride exactly the same way. However, I think it is a lot less confusing for a horse if the style of riding is similar. But some animals can relate things that are "a little" different and others cannot. Some dogs will sit if anyone says "sit," and others don't understand the cue if someone else is saying it in a different voice. 

It's a form of intelligence I guess? But I wouldn't say the ability makes an animal "more intelligent" than another. I would think a horse that accepts many riders has this ability to relate similar cues into what the rider means. But without any input from the trainer, riders could be using _very_ different cues from one another. One might be trying to use what the horse knows as a half halt to stop. 

I've seen my own horses either be confused or accept a rider based on their style. For instance, one of my friends rides english but my horse interpreted the way she sat as a "driving" seat and kept speeding up even when she was asking her to slow down. When I explained to her that my horses were used to a light seat when going faster with half halts to slow, she lightened her seat and used her legs more, seat less, the horse understood and both horse and rider went along very happily. 

My cousin's horses are not trained to any bit or leg contact. You must sit lightly, but down in the saddle, and they respond to voice cues and a light touch with direct reining only off a loose rein. Most riders would confuse them without her input.


----------



## Cammey

tinyliny said:


> that is a lot to expect from one horse, what you've described as her typical workload. it's not the hours ridden. horses are really much stronger than we think, and 3 hours of trotting around an arena , with lot of rests for trainer /student gabbing is not big deal. what concerns me is having that many different people riding her. she must be an extraordinary creature to tolerate that with as good a work ethic as she apparently has.


Well, the nice thing is that, with the notable exception of myself, she usually doesn't have to deal with true beginners very often. I'm probably her most annoying rider right now (no matter how hard I try). Yet honestly she doesn’t usually seem unhappy to see me. If that's her amazing work ethic, or careful management... I honestly suspect a bit of both. I know she’s in this role because she seems suited to it and lessons are structured both around the rider but also around making sure she stays mentally engaged yet relaxed. For example, we avoid doing exercises too many times in a single lesson, especially if they’re a bit rough for either her or us. This is why I’ve been learning leg yields by doing them just a few times each lesson - same with cavaletti, same with basically everything. We go usually until we get a really good one, and no more than 4-6 passes, then the exercise is done. This is more for her than for me. 




tinyliny said:


> most horses get soured after awhile. especially with riders of differing skill levels. each rider wants that long canter. or , each one is trying to learn things, or thinks they are going to 'train' or improve the horse's way of going. school horses often develop ways of going that work for them becuase they HAVE to protect themselves from the student's hands or rough seats. admittedly, this is more applicable to horses used more for beginners.
> 
> I guess, if you are using a horse that is also used by 5 or 6 different persons, you really have to be fair to the hrose and not expect that you are going to train it to go one way, when it goes a totally different way with the majority of persons who ride it, and they accept this way of going, or, even encourage it.


Entirely fair - I can only imagine getting 5 or 6 different sets of instructions would be maddening for anything - horse or human honestly. In her case no one except Jill is really trying to _train_ her to go different ways or to learn new skills - at least not intentionally. Now obviously, every time you ride a horse you’re training it to some extent - but in this regard to the best of my knowledge everyone is trying to reinforce the same program. Now, this isn’t to say we aren’t ever working on things - see my discussions on halting (which she does seem to have improved on, at least for me) and now I’m learning to be sure I ask her for proper bend - but these areas are all laid out as part of her structure and everyone should be either doing them solidly or working on them within that context. Clearly this is still different riders so there’s a variance to deal with, but hopefully we aren’t confusing her too-too much.

Now, if a student wants a horse whose direction they can impact and really ‘work with’ at this stable there are _plenty_ of them here - in fact, that’s the majority. Learning how to help develop a younger horse into a competitive horse actually seems to be part of the program for the more advanced students (because developing a horse is a huge part of higher-level riding and competing as I understand it) but Dragon is more the horse you ride when _the student_ want to learn new things and refine their technique on a reasonably stable mount - not teach her to do things. 

What I do find interesting about the number of riders being a problem though - while Dragon definitely has the most hours ridden than most of the other horses, there is a period of ‘get multiple riders on the horse’ that happens for all the horses as part of their training. I was under the impression this was to help them become comfortable with the variety of riders and not be too shocked if someone rides a hair differently than they’re used to - so it was seen as more a good thing rather than a bad one. Mind you, again these are mostly experienced riders - but still. 




sarahfromsc said:


> She must be the mythical unicorn blowing rainbows.
> 
> Mine? All those different riders, all the different riders doing different things. Makes me chuckle.
> 
> He doesn't suffer fools that is for sure.
> 
> He is a great teacher because he will do things, because he demands you ask correctly. If you don't, well he just keeps doing whatever. When I am learning a new skill which means he is also Learning new skill, we look like ****. my coach can get on him and he is beautiful to watch.
> 
> Yea, not a school master.



I don’t make any such claim. I mean, I’m biased and kind of adore her - but honestly I never really even thought of her as much other than a really beautiful and fairly patient sport-horse until I started reading comments on here. Now, I was a bit enamored with her when I first saw her because she’s a beautiful sport-horse, but the things I’m coming to appreciate now are a lot different than the ones I first did. It’s an evolving process - I’m learning. 

Dragon will pretty much always try _something_ in response to what she interprets as a request… if I don’t ask right, that ‘something’ might not be what I intended. IMHO this is actually both one of my favorite things about her, but also one of the things that I think requires the most caution for a true beginner - because if you say kick her too hard you’re going to speed way the heck up, and if you pull too hard in a turn you’re going to go around _sharply_. I’ve learned to be gentle real quick. 

Your horse would probably just laugh at me, but he sounds like a great horse for someone a bit further along. 





Speed Racer said:


> No professional trainer/BO/BM would allow any of that to happen. If this is what you're experiencing, then you need to run, not walk away from these people.


Your opinion has been noted. I’ve put some thought into it, had a few conversations in various contexts, and have decided that given the situation I’m seeing, while I do see where some risks are being taken, overall I generally disagree. Thank you for your input, and I will keep my eyes open as things go forward.





gottatrot said:


> Head lamps are fine, we use them a lot to feed horses and clean sheds at night. The horses look a bit dazed if you stare at them and forget the light is shining right into their eyes. The creepiest thing is if you forget there is a very black horse in the field and suddenly realize they're standing right next to you.


I may look into a head lamp honestly. I suspect I will be far less concerned should I need to do the same catching again, but if I find a night where it’s moonless out I’m going to want some sort of light source with me. Fortunately everyone out there will be blanketed so I hopefully won’t run into black-horse-against-night, but it’s a good thing to keep in mind. 

I spoke with Jill a bit about the herd-catching situation and her thoughts. Unfortunately, it’s really what we have to deal with. The mares rotate through two sets of paddocks, and on Sunday (during the day) I intend to go out and get a much better lay of the land. Apparently I don’t need to worry about that lead-mare, and the pony I fended off is the only one who’s nosy (not aggressive, but tends to beg). Objectively these guys should actually be better behaved than what I’m used to dealing with (but are still horses, so all cautions apply).

I also have contacted two friends of mine just generally and am pre-sending them some info ‘in event of emergency’ - a bit of a tradition that my friends take *very* seriously (we’ve looked at durable health power of attorney - nothing to do with this situation, actually spurred on by a near-car-accident a friend had). I'm doing what I can to be responsible - but overall I've decided that it's an acceptable degree of risk. It's weird just how wildly divergent opinions I'm getting on this one to be honest depending on who I talk to - ranging from 'of course herd catching is a normal part of riding' to 'oh my god I can't believe you're out there'. It's been interesting. 



gottatrot said:


> Dragon doesn't sound quite that rock solid, but she still seems to be doing a great job. Hopefully the owners will watch her for signs of burnout and find her a nice home with only one rider once her career is over. Perhaps they only mean for this schedule to continue for a year or two.


Dragon isn’t as rock solid as the horses you describe - though she is very patient (saving that one Sunday, but that seems an anomalous event). Even when she was genuinely upset and scared of things she still _tried_ to listen and never tried to unseat me - she just clearly wanted us out of there. She does ‘test’ a little from time to time - but it takes very little to correct her - usually just asking for the correct response again (she speeds up, you ask her to slow down), or occasionally changing your tone (yes, you’re going back to the paddock). 

She probably wouldn’t do well if someone tried to consistently use too harsh a hand with her - I’ll be honest, I’m not sure what would happen there. My best guess is that this would result in her overreacting and desperately trying to figure out what she’s doing wrong, If someone kept this up long enough, then yes they could probably get her worked up badly doing that. I can see how it would be fairly easy to ‘sour’ her that way. 

But right now I’m the worst thing she gets to deal with… and while I don’t hold myself in terribly high regard as a rider (and really, I don’t, despite what people seem to think) she doesn’t seem unhappy to see me, so hopefully I’m not too unpleasant an experience. If there’s a weak link in this equation though - it’s me. 

She’s been on a schedule for riding lessons for a few years now, though I don’t know the intensity of the current layout meshes with her usual. I know she's usually a bit busier in winter because not all of the horses are brought out to the stable with the indoor arena, so there are functionally less rideable horses at this time of year. Also, while she's technically got a 7-day schedule that only holds true if everyone makes every possible riding time, and some of thoe days are fairly light. I'm her only rider Thursday for example - and it's for about an hour or so of walk/trot work (which I missed yesterday because it was in the single digits at night and that was too cold). I also know that she’s watched carefully and is also quite beloved by an array of people. She wasn’t most people’s first horse, but she was a lot of student’s first “exciting” horse and if I have her out she’s pretty much always the one getting love from people. If Jill ever decided to sell her, there would be a lot of people who would probably jump at that - but she’d be incredibly hard to replace. Honestly, while I understand the concern, I'm just really not seeing this broken-down horse that people seem to be describing - I'm no expert, but she seems incredibly happy/healthy. I suspect the moment she started showing signs of stress or physical exhaustion we'd all be pushed onto other horses - including me at this point. Then I'd be writing posts about my exciting experiences riding horses less than a year off the track.




Rainaisabelle said:


> It's all fine and good to be riding in a well lit arena but catching a horse in the dark in a herd of other horses is asking for trouble and asking to get hurt.


This has been my area of debate as well, though talking to other people with horses who do turnout in winter it also seems to be something that comes up a lot. It is an area I’m looking to see how I can make safer. 




Whinnie said:


> Having learned that Dragon has several riders, I am curious to know if she responds to each of them as she does to you, Cammey, whether under saddle, on the ground or catching her. Do you have conversations with the others who ride her? I know I would be comparing notes with other riders. It would be interesting to see if she has favorites or is the same to everyone all around.
> 
> That is an interesting concept, that a trainer can train all riders to ride exactly the same way. I guess I always thought that each individual has their own style of riding because of personality, age, body type, balance, confidence and a number of other things that make each of us unique. That is fascinating, I wish I could find a great instructor to help me advance as I am still struggling with my progress.


This is an incredibly interesting question - and I genuinely don’t know the answer to this one. 

I have had conversations with her other lease-riders for scheduling purposes, but I haven’t asked what she’s like to ride. When I’ve spoken with Jill about it the impression I got was that she generally seems to get along with me (which played a part in me being able to lease her), but it’s nothing particularly special. Now recently she’s started to come up to me in the paddock occasionally, which since I don't bring treats any more (per some prior conversation on here actually) is a little unusual for her - but it’s not unheard of and I suspect her not getting along with her herd mates is playing as big a part in that as any feelings towards me. Basically, the impression I get is that we’re a pretty good ‘fit’ as a pair but that it’s nothing terribly special. I’d be very curious to hear the opinions of her other riders.

Jill definitely has a style she trains in and a sort of ‘goal’ we’re going for - though I wouldn’t go so far as to say it ends up being ‘exactly same way’ because as you mentioned there are individual differences in skill level, age, confidence, etc. But on the other hand we shouldn’t be trying to use different cues or expecting her to do different things based on the same cue - there’s fundamentally the same ‘right’ answer we’re all striving to hit - and it’s the one she responds (and responds well) to. I think of it more like being taught the same style of dance - of course there's a lot of variance, but all the moves/steps should be mutually agreed upon and work in roughly the same fashion. 

Honestly, when I got on here the advice I got was get the best teacher I could for as much time as I could - and I’m really inclined to agree with that. That said a ‘great’ teacher is totally dependent on fit with the person involved and goals. As has become abundantly clear, a lot of people on here would really not like my teacher (in fact, would probably be quite distressed by the sounds of it) whereas personally I’ve been loving lessons and am really crediting her (rather than any imagined prowess on my part) with how fast I’ve been learning. She challenges me, a lot, and I love that. The parts I feel have gone a bit fast honestly have mostly been the parts _surrounding_ riding rather than the riding itself (specifically, the problematic reality of catching from herd turnout - but I get the impression that herd turnout is seen as valuable enough to the horses that it's non-negotiable for their sake). As far as the actual riding lessons go: the people who have seemed to find my experiences least weird have seemed to be mostly at competitive barns that aim to get students up in levels - but that's been purely anecdotal.




gottatrot said:


> I would agree that no two people ride exactly the same way. However, I think it is a lot less confusing for a horse if the style of riding is similar. But some animals can relate things that are "a little" different and others cannot. Some dogs will sit if anyone says "sit," and others don't understand the cue if someone else is saying it in a different voice.


This is a better description I think. If I gave people the impression that it’s literally ‘the same’ then I am unintentionally misrepresenting and probably being too careless with my writing. But the key is that everyone should (for example) using the same cues in the same order to make the same requests, expecting the same ways of movement out of her, and working within a consistent framework. These are all her students working with her either during lessons or (for a few of us) working on lessons with her in our own time. It’s not people just randomly leasing to hack around or try to teach her new skills/disciplines. 

This whole discussion has led to a lot of thought on my part just overall, and I sort of sat back and evaluated what I'm seeing and my feelings on such. Honestly, the conclusion I came to is that I'm being thrown a bit into the deep end and should be responsible, cautious, and alert for my own safety - but I kind of knew that already. I wish there was a better solution to the night-catching thing, but I don't have one and I'm not willing to give up any chance to ride outside of lessons to avoid it. I was aware that my trainer was putting a lot of trust in me and usually doesn't lease to people at my skill level, because we discussed that. Now I'm understanding why a bit better. But honestly, I'm thankful for the opportunity and am mostly just very committed to living up to that trust. I've been very focused on trying to take risks responsibility, and intend to continue to do so.


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## Cammey

*Lesson 16: Resuming Course*

Sunday’s lesson was cancelled due to a winter storm that dropped about ten inches on us in our first serious snow of the season, so my first lesson after my solo-ride was Tuesday night.

Overall, it was nice to really get back into the pace of lessons again. I feel like all the ones since we moved to the indoor have been somewhat chaotic between Dragon’s mood and my getting a feel for the place. This lesson felt more like picking up where we left off from somewhere around lessons 11/12 before we changed locations and everything went a little sideways.

Today’s ‘new skill’ wasn’t really as much genuinely new as it was mixing-and-matching prior work. There was quite a bit of time spent in western jog sans stirrups - including working on leg yields and (for the first time) sharp turns. I discovered these do actually demand some balance and even a little core strength to do sans-stirrups - gripping a little with my thighs wasn't optional, and I sort of wish I had worn less slick breeches. We also did cavaletti (I notice that my cavaletti line seems to have gained a pole in length) followed immediately by leg yields - with a strong focus on straightness and pace going into and through the cavaletti then getting the correct bend and keeping the front/back in line when doing the yields. It was a weird-seeming exercise that required a surprising amount of coordination and almost a bit of a mentality-shift as I went from really letting her navigate the cavaletti (which is how I ride cavaletti right now - I try to make sure I set her up right in terms of pace/straightness/balance and then I just kind of move with her after that and try to stay out of her way - if I'm supposed to be doing something else I don't know it at this point) to taking a lot more control to get the yields correct, where I really am trying to influence each step. 

When we did this I feel Dragon moved far too much forward and not enough sideways with each step of the leg yield for my liking. I never fully made it back to the arena edge from the quarter-line in the space I had, which I know I should have been able to do. Jill however seemed pleased and I got a fair bit of 'good correction' with my ability to get the bend right, even though the side-steps were kind of pitifully small. 

Posting trot in general is finally really starting to become a comfort zone. Getting the cavaletti right just sort of happened each time, and it was nice to get comfortable with them enough that they didn't demand absolute focus on each pass to get my body to cooperate. It freed up enough of my mind to let me focus on what we were going to do next rather than trying to get myself through the motion. I didn’t have to force my eyes to not look down at Dragon - I found myself focusing more on the spot where the yields were supposed to begin. My timing was never awkward or behind even if we adjusted slightly going in - it felt awesome.

Overall there were very few corrections during the lesson - one ‘really push into your ankles’, a few regarding using my legs to really stabilize her and being sure to use my core, and then a few turns where she really wanted me to focus on steering with my seat so I can get a feel for where I need to be with it - but overall it was a lot of encouragement and I seemed to be being more critical of my performance than Jill was. 

I’ve stopped having the impulse to cross the mane with the reins at any point. It’s no longer something I do unintentionally - that’s a huge improvement - though I think my rein tension may still be somewhat incorrect at times (a bit too tight on the inside mostly - she doesn't pop a shoulder out or anything, but apparently I should be able to let the inside rein be a litlte loose, and right now my inside/outside rein are about equal). In my most embarrassing moment I did cut a corner very close and ended up clipping a jump with my foot and knocking down a pole - but Dragon didn’t seem to care and it was clear Jill wanted me not to pay attention to it, so I just moved on. 

Jill and I were uncommonly chatty during the lesson. We talked a little about the holidays, including getting a little personal with our histories. I did ask about the whole night-catching thing and the reality is that it’s just the setup we have available here. She gave me some advice regarding herd catching and we talked about it - most notably that the mare I was worried about isn’t actually likely to get aggressive, that I shouldn’t hesitate to use my lead rope to hit anyone who is misbehaving or not respecting space (and yes, that pony is a pest - but not a dangerous one), and that if Dragon really doesn’t want to head back out and keeps giving me trouble with it then it might be OK to just put her back in her stall since everyone normally starts coming in around 9/10 anyway so I’m effectively only putting her back out for about an hour before her normal dinner-time. 

I ended up missing Thursday’s lease time because it was brutally cold, and I really don’t want to ride in potentially sub zero temperatures. However, as I mentioned previously regarding news - I did just increase the amount of time I’m able to ride overall to include a little more on Saturday afternoon and around my lesson time Tuesday. This is very much to work on the whole ‘hours in the saddle’ bit as well as to deal with the fact that winter seems to require a lot of random days get cancelled and I still want to be consistent in my riding. 

I was told I can work on leg yielding and cavaletti during lease rides if I’d like (with a little bit of an implication that I probably should if I’m comfortable doing so) so long as I stick to only the normal amount we’d do in a lesson. They’re usually already set out in place of one of the jumps in the arena, but if they’re not I should just use a single one until we go over how to space them properly. I’ll probably try working on this during some time on Saturday.


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## Cammey

*Weekend 12/17-12/18*

*Second Solo Ride*
We had a bit of a warm patch, wherein ‘warm’ meant ‘hovering around 30 F’. I got there around 1 pm, and was surprised there was only one other rider wandering around the barn, who was going out to catch her horse about as I was pulling in.

Dragon was out with the herd eating hay! It was the first time I had seen her allowed to actually much with the group without being chased off in the two weeks since she’s been there. When I went to grab her I actually had to pull her off it a little, but overall she was about as lazy/relaxed as I’ve seen her.

Someone has made a disordered mess of the tack room. It took me far too long to be certain which of the 8 similarly-looking saddles was correct, since the one in her spot was quite obviously not - her girth, but not her saddle. My guess is someone had a small rider out on her who then put that saddle in her usual spot - or someone moved one and created a cascade effect. Either way, knowing which one was right involved pulling down and putting back about half of them (fortunately Dragon was in line-of-sight from this, and seemed quite relaxed). Her bridle was likewise completely in the wrong place - but at least that is fairly distinct and easy to recognize. 

So grooming/tack-up took a while. 

The other rider in the arena was out with a friend/boyfriend/husband who was politely helping with the very heavy arena door. By the time I got there she was finishing her warm-up at the trot and switching over to working a fast canter. The horse she was riding was obviously quite fiesty (not one of ours) and seemed a bit spooky, so I did my best to stay well out of their way. The speed differences were a bit tricky to work with, so after my warmup I just switched to working entirely in the center and leaving the outside ring to them. For as large as this arena is, it’s optimized for jump placement so the ‘outside’ down the long sides really isn’t wide enough to let two horses pass, so having them both on the ring was requiring one of us to constantly get out of the way or re-route. 

That was fine. It meant that I spent most of the riding time working on figure-8s and shapes in the center. My focus for the day ended up being really being sure I was steering with my seat and keeping my diagonal correct as we weaved around. I didn’t get to work on any of the cavaletti or leg-yielding because I didn’t want to deal with the setup or worry about leg-yeilding onto to outside where a fast horse was moving.

Dragon was very calm-relaxed overall, obedient, and only tried to speed up on me twice (basically a record). She seemed completely uninterested in the other horse racing around us, regardless of what it was up to. Her movements were calm and very much ‘just enough’ - responding perfectly to speed changes without chomping at the bit. It was kind of nice. I wanted to do no-stirrup work to take advantage of her nice and relaxed western jog she was giving me, but the other horse was being active enough that I wanted my stirrups just in case. This was probably over-cautious of me in retrospect, but I’m defaulting towards being a bit boring when my trainer isn’t about for these first few rides.

I left first to tack-down, but took my time and she ended up joining me. By the time I had finished untacking she had finished as well and was already heading off, so as I was going to release Dragon out to the paddock she was going to catch another horse to ride (I think she’s exercising them?). Apparently she is the owner of that begging pony, who of course came out to bother both of us as we went in. She told me just to thwack him if he gets annoying (“He’s very food motivated” - so apparently there’s a male pony in the mare pen). Honestly, he’s much better at being cute rather than scary in the sunlight, though he still does crowd the gate. 

Overall, a nice and kind of uneventful ride. I will want to get a little more focused during these as time goes on, but for now I was happy just to have a really pleasant ride for both of us.
*
Sunday - Working Walk, Bending, and even more Cavaletti*
After getting home from riding on Saturday I absolutely crashed. Despite having company over I passed out at around 5 pm in my living room and didn’t wake up until around midnight - only to wander up to bed and crash again at 2 am and have a hard time waking to my alarm at 8. Several of my joints were flaring up pretty badly, and I felt that heavy-blanket-weight of exhaustion that I sometimes politely call ‘fatigue’ - which is, despite the obviousness of joint pain, is actually my least favorite symptom of whatever the hell it is that flares up and bothers me.

After I made it out of bed for about twenty minutes and stretched a little, I managed to convince it to recede enough I could function, leaving just my thumb, knee, and hips as still sore. The thumb was actually the worst of it, and felt like I had somehow injured it - but I knew better. Of all the annoying things, it made using/gripping my phone and trying to braid my hair kind of a pain. I went through range-of-motion, decided it was insufficiently hurt for me to be unable to deal with, and managed out the door without painkillers (small victories). 

I actually arrived even a touch on the early side, enough so that I was able to offer to help Jill by taking horses her apprentice (whom I will nickname Beth) handed me off the trailer and putting them into stalls. (She brings in extra horses for Sunday lessons, as it’s the busiest day). I’m starting to get to know and grow to like the whole little herd a little - each with their own personalities and quirks. While I haven’t said as much, secretly I do hope I get a chance to ride them sometime, even though I know that there really isn’t a good ‘fit’ right now for me (the calmest-natured horses are the youngest/least trained, and the more experienced/older ones are the spunkiest). I’m slightly nervous Jill thinks I’m growing too attached to Monarch to be interested in such, or that I’m just generally too timid to be interested. I adore Monarch, but I’m also very curious about the others. Because of this, I usually don’t start prepping Monarch early for lessons - even though I probably could - just in case this happens to be the lesson she decides to swap me out.

Today wasn’t that day. I found Monarch out eating breakfast with the herd. She was off on the edge a bit with one other horse - but she wasn’t alone, and she wasn’t being chased off. She came with me easily, though she did grab one last hay-bite before we took off. She was… honestly just completely normal. As much as I almost miss how adorably happy she sometimes has been to see me, I’m far more glad to see her in a much more contented place.

The lesson itself was very technically challenging. We started off working on Working Walk. This sounds so much easier than it is. Monarch *hates* working walk and it’s one of the few times I get to see her genuinely trying to be evasive. As mentioned, she will always do _something_ in response to cues - but to try to hit working walk if there’s any doubt you could mean something else, she will go with that something else option. Pulling up into getting headset for the walk, she will try to anticipate it as preparation for the trot. Tell her ‘no trot’ and she will try to take the half halt as either an actual halt or as ‘oh, you mean western jog’. Getting to ‘working walk’ from either ‘halt’ or ‘walk’ without hitting these other permutations is challenging - and Jill has said that for once it really isn’t me - it’s her. 

She actually wasn’t being too bad for me today, and I got the distinct sense that she did understand what we were doing and while it ****ed her off she was willing to go with it and try to get this exercise over with. That said, it definitely still required micro-managing. She’d give me whatever I asked for - but only if I asked for it, and only if I was spot-on with it. Getting her into headset was genuinely a bit of a pain. 

Then we worked on ‘bend’ in various fashions - mostly in terms of getting it independent from the direction the horse is actually moving. This meant going up the arena with the horse bent around my leg towards center the whole time… then away from center the whole time… then switching directions and doing the same thing both ways.

I only really ‘got’ it to the extent that Jill meant it for a few short periods - though once I did I saw more what was meant it became easier. When I’ve been hearing ‘bend’ I’ve been thinking the amount of bend that I ask for to make sure her body rests along a circle - where I can see the side of the horse’s face on the inside and feel her wrapped a bit around my leg. When we’re saying ‘bend’ for the purposes of these movements we’re talking about her neck being down and pointed towards her shoulder and her whole body arching around in a much more pronounced fashion. She has done this for me in response to the leg yields because I am often really bumping against her side - but getting her to do it _without_ either relying over-much on the reins or making her think she should turn/side-step was genuinely a bit of a challenge. The difference between the relatively subtle hip/leg movement of ‘bend around a turn while steering with the seat’ vs the very pronounced ‘bend around a leg yield’ requires finding a balance somewhere in ‘bend but keep going straight’. There may be an obvious solution to this - I did find making sure my outer rein stayed quite open helped a lot in making her still go straight - but for now I’m really still working on figuring this out. 

We then really tried to work on ‘straight’ up the centerline of the Arena, including doing some halts in the center before continuing forward. This motion, admittedly, immediately made me think of the opening of a dressage test, and got me to idly wondering if this is always the order things get taught in or if Jill’s ‘detail oriented’ comments are leading her to push me more in that direction (I’ve mentioned to her that both H/J and eventing interest me - eventing obviously includes dressage). 

After spending most of the lesson on that we finished up on cavaletti. The setup was now 4 cavaletti, 4 open steps (so missing 3 cavaletti), then 4 more cavaletti. My brain did not fathom how this would be any harder than just the 4 cavaletti from Tuesday, but when I went to ride it, I found I was much more of a mess (not to the extent of not being able to ride it, but I was just much less organized). When I lamented this to Jill, she indicated that a couple things changed. First, the cavaletti spacing was now just a tiny bit farther apart than it had been Tuesday - where apparently she had spaced them slightly close together on purpose. Second: this setup required that I come out of one set neatly prepared for the other, which I am not doing smoothly, thus making my second set awkward. My heels weren’t staying down as well either, and I suspect that a point three should be added - my legs were starting to refuse to cooperate with me by this point due to exhaustion. Regardless - it was much less awesome than Tuesday (though to be fair, not disastrous either) and really showed me all the practice and work I have ahead of me to try to get this consistent. 

So overall a challenging but good lesson, that just shows that I have a tremendous amount of stuff to work on and learn in just about every direction.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Did you get a new lesson horse?


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## greentree

Oh my gosh! Did something happen to Dragon, so now you're riding Monarch?? I hope Dragon is OK!


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## Cammey

@DraftyAiresMum and @greentree:

No... I just slipped up on my maintenance of pseudonyms and used her actual (non registered) name.


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## greentree

Her name has been changed to protect the innocent? Lol! Those sneaky horse-tracking trolls!


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## Cammey

All names have been changed. While one horse probaby isn't too easy to track I figured by the time I started naming the whole herd the competition team at least would become recognizable to anyone who ran into them. 

While my experiences and feelings are my own and thus I feel fair to share, they're also limited to one beginner's set of eyes, and I really have no desire to shape anyone's view of anyone else besides myself in what seems like it might be a connected community at times.


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## greentree

Most trainers of competition horses ADVERTISE them, and would WELCOME the FREE publicity!!

Go to several horse shows, and you will understand!


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## Cammey

greentree said:


> Most trainers of competition horses ADVERTISE them, and would WELCOME the FREE publicity!!
> 
> Go to several horse shows, and you will understand!


It is my ardent hope to get the opportunity to do so . I plan to start attending shows sometime in the spring, regardless of if I'm able to actually ride anything, just to get a feel for them. 

When I started this journal I really had no idea if I'd end up loving or hating my trainer, if I'd stick with the same trainer, or if any of that would have anything to do with anything besides how our personalities clicked. Heck, I wasn't even really sure how long I'd end up sticking around in equestrian endeavors (... I mean, I was very into ballet for about 5 months...). As it stands, I've ended up really loving her and her horses and think I'm probably going to stick with this a while (though I do feel she's much more used to teaching advanced students and that _really_ shows) but it's also obvious there's been a lot of controversy regarding my perspective on things. So I've actually been very glad I've been more careful. If I were writing about everything openly and naming names I'd be tempted to be a lot more guarded in what I said and worried about the impressions being made by things like my decision to press forward herd-catching into the night, etc. I think that might put a damper on a journal that's really more of an exploration and discussion of my experiences - good, bad, wonderful and scary.

Now I've realized that if/when I start competing, it is probably going to be trickier to remain vague about details, but I figure I'll cross that bridge if/when I come to it.


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## Whinnie

Cammey said:


> It is my ardent hope to get the opportunity to do so . I plan to start attending shows sometime in the spring, regardless of if I'm able to actually ride anything, just to get a feel for them.



I don't know why you wouldn't show in the spring. In just 16 lessons (or hours) of riding, you have progressed more and understood more than a fraction of a percent of beginner riders accomplish in a year or more of steady riding under instruction. That kind of brilliance should be given a chance to compete.


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## Cammey

Whinnie said:


> I don't know why you wouldn't show in the spring. In just 16 lessons (or hours) of riding, you have progressed more and understood more than a fraction of a percent of beginner riders accomplish in a year or more of steady riding under instruction. That kind of brilliance should be given a chance to compete.


I genuinely, genuinely do not know how to respond to your incredulity here. On one hand you're basically telling me I'm too good to be true which is... weirdly flattering to the point it's hard to be cross about. On the other hand, I worry I'm misrepresenting something about my experience that's leading you to that belief, since I don't feel nearly as awesome as that statement seems to be making me out to be. Either way, I kind of have to shrug and say 'take it as you will'. 

To ignore tone for a moment and take your statement more literally: I have no idea. I do want to compete at some point to get an idea where I'm at and see if I enjoy it, but that will come at its own time whenever I'm ready. I've given up on guessing at anything involving timelines right now.


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## Cammey

*Lesson 18: Loosening the Inside Rein and Fast Trot*

Dragon was her usual relaxed self today tacking up, which led me to believe I would have a ride somewhat similar to Sunday’s. So far there’s always been a pretty clear pattern between her at tack-up and her during the riding, but today was a bit of an exception. When I brought her into the arena I found Jill mounted on Cricket and Beth on Kitty, doing horse-schooling (canter leads). This was actually my first mistake of the day, as I forgot to call ‘door’ before turning the corner, and managed to spook Cricket into sort of a splayed stop (Jill thankfully didn’t seem too cross, though I was very apologetic). It was clear Jill considered going to un-tack but decided against it, so the lesson today was actually taught mounted and ran fairly long.

We started off the lesson with essentially a repeat of the first part of Sunday - with working walk. Today this came uncannily easily. Dragon seemed to really wake up upon seeing her herd mates and getting a nice energetic walk-gait out of her with headset was almost confusingly straightforward. Because it went so smoothly, and we knew it wasn’t her favorite thing at all, we ended up finishing up that part of the lesson quite quickly.

Then we moved into the part that consumed the bulk of the time - trying to work on bending exercises while working on the position and tension in my reins. Jill used Cricket to demonstrate what she was talking about with ‘work the inside rein’ and I was able to watch her get a beautifully bent horse with a completely loose inside rein (draping for effect) - even with Cricket being much, much less schooled than the horse I was riding. Despite I think intellectually comprehending what she did (I think) I struggled to replicate it in practice. I’m mostly using my leg to get the bend, but without the inside rein to counter-balance it’s like my outside rein (which I need to control speed) pulls her head back around to straight. I know I’m doing something wrong here, and Jill has basically said I just need to play with my tension, timing, and position for it - because Dragon will give me the right response once I can get the cue right. So we practiced this a while, along with a lot more work on leg yields (including working on using my hips more to get the movement rather than relying entirely on my heel, which is messing up my base of support some). Jill seems to prefer it if I focus on bend and alignment first and worry about the size of my side-steps later - so it feels a little to me like I'm getting worse rather than better - but I know she’s right. I also practiced a bit of steering from the seat with an almost completely loose rein just at the walk to really try to keep nailing down steering with my hips - which I actually find kind of fun. 

After working on bend for a while, we then did a review of the various trot paces. Two things made this interesting: firstly, Dragon was really starting to get a bit feisty by this point, and started to show some of the pulling behaviors which I previously had only seen the first time I rode her after we came to the indoor. The nice thing in this circumstance was that she wasn’t terrified or upset - just very energetic and cross at me for the very slow speeds we were working at - which made things feel a lot less unpredictable and scary. Now, she was wound up to be a _little_ spooky. Since Cricket spooked at the spot he saw us near the door, Dragon seemed to conclude that clearly _something_ worrying must be in that spot… so I had a spooky spot at the door to deal with but there was really, genuinely, nothing to show her there - she was effectively spooked _at us_. I had no idea how to explain that to her besides doing the normal spook management process of making her walk past it a bunch of times. Even with this her spookiness was very mild - mostly just hesitations moving past, side-steps away from it, tension, and being a little looky. 

The circumstances let me practice some of the techniques we went over for dealing with her revved up in a much calmer environment. I worked on the technique to get her to stop bracing her neck against me. Now that I’ve been able to play with it I’ve realized it’s not even that terribly difficult - it’s just pulling the reins upward a touch (‘towards your ears, not towards your chest’) and once that has pulled her out of her ‘set’ position (because she’s got nothing to hang on and the bit is now uncomfortable) being smart about how I position my hands/elbows to try to keep her from going back into it again - wiggling the bit if necessary to get her to relax back to a proper headset and not apply too much pressure. In this much calmer review I believe I now have a much better understanding of it for if I need it in a more stressful situation, or for when she just gets stubborn.

Overall, I was just feeling fairly confident and relaxed tonight. This also meant that when we went to practice extended trot I actually really let her open up for the first time. Way back when we were first practicing two-point I had stumbled into a time where Dragon went incredibly fast and I wasn’t sure if she slipped in a couple canter steps or just had some way of trotting at a speed I didn’t realize was there. Well, tonight I got my answer: it’s just an extremely fast trot. By this point I was feeling pretty good in my ability to get her to listen, and she was excited but done with any nervousness. So as we pushed into extended trot I also relaxed and let her increase her pace as the energy increased. I’ll be honest, I did it because it was joyful and fun - not because it was critical for the exercise. 

She ended up capping out right around the edge of my ability to keep up with her, which was great. I was just barely able to make it back down to her from posting in time for the next step. We increased speed over the course of half a lap and she wasn’t being heavy in my hands - head beautifully where it was supposed to be, and responding to any reminders I gave her promptly. As fast as we were going, it mostly felt smooth and since she was really listening to me I didn’t feel out of control. It was sort of my lovely moment for the night. 

Jill also seemed pleased and complimented me on our form (without asking me to slow down, which honestly surprised me a little). I felt almost like I was cheating a bit - because in this case Dragon was really doing the bulk of the work and all I needed to do was ask her to remain in headset and do my part in keeping up with posting. She’ll do this to me sometimes - give me just this beautiful version of a gait as if to say ‘see, this is how well I can do this’. It always feels just lovely. 

We flew around the arena thrice, which didn’t take long, before I was asked for a walk transition and slowed her down. She was light in the bit and transitioned down smoothly, slowing down and then going into the walk in only a few strides. I was glad to find my confidence in her responsiveness merited. (Note to self: letting myself rise out of the seat a little instead of trying to post or sit a transition like that is probably technically very wrong, but it did make it a lot smoother for both of us - I should ask about this).

After that, I had to work her back down to calm again, as she seemed about ready to jump a cross country course. I tried to get a nice western jog out of her (which she usually loves) but it was actually legitimately hard to keep it from speeding up. I ended up having to do a bunch of trot-walk-trot-walk transitions and even a couple of halts to get her thinking. Jill seemed content to let me work this one out for myself and just sat back to watch - which I was glad for, as this is a skill I really need to develop. The nice thing was that despite being a ball of energy Dragon was really listening to me, so even though she was slightly grumpy about it at first, working her down wasn’t actually too difficult. We did a lap or two of this and then I was able to get a nice calm long-rein walk for a few laps to end out the night. 

I’ll confess, the extended trot was a fair bit of fun. Technically, I’ve done it before - but it was just a short distance with a moderate pace - so it was fast, but didn’t feel nearly as fast as today did. I also really am finding I enjoy riding Dragon when she’s _a little_ excited so long as that isn’t mixed with too much nervousness or fear. Admittedly, my confidence had taken a little bit of a hit in that first-indoor-arena ride and since then I’ve been really trying to keep her absolutely calm during our sessions. But the truth is that her enthusiasm and energy is what really made me attracted to riding her (and really, riding in general) in the first place. So it was nice to have a day where I could safely play with that a little, and then learn to wind things back down afterwards. Really, more than anything else I’m doing it’s _that feeling_ that I really love about riding - the connected excitement and sense of powerful mobility that brings up visions of something between partner dancing and soaring. There are so many different reasons to love riding, but right now _that_ is my favorite.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Wow cammey it sounds awesome, would you be able to post a video of you riding so we can see? Id definitely be interested to see it !


----------



## sarahfromsc

Was it an extended trot, a true one, of just a fast trot? You use both terms, hence my confused mind, which is old anyway.


----------



## Cammey

sarahfromsc said:


> Was it an extended trot, a true one, of just a fast trot? You use both terms, hence my confused mind, which is old anyway.


I am using 'extended trot' to mean long/large steps with a specific headset (which as I'm learning it is a little longer/lower than the collection headset, but still with contact on the bit - not anywhere near as low as say 'western jog'). I'm using 'fast trot' admittedly much more loosely to mean both a faster rhythm (there's a sort of default pace that my trainer usually wants me to aim for, I'm not sure how to define it but it's got a specific beat to it). I'm also using 'fast trot' to just mean 'we were covering a lot of distance'. 

I worked on learning 'extended trot' vs 'collected trot' previously in short bursts - shortening her strides and pulling her in vs trying to get her to stretch out (though the first time I attempted this, I really lost most of my contact with the bit to be honest - there was very little headset at all and I'm not even sure I really 'got' it). In both cases I was trying to get her into a fairly energetic state - but in collected trot I pull in a headset and try to direct as much energy as I can up (I think 'bouncy'), whereas with extended trot I direct that more forward - usually by letting up on the bit pressure with my hands and leaning just the tiniest bit forward (this is pretty subtle). Previously, when we did that exercise with both versions of the trot I was really trying to keep exactly the same pace and just change the stride lengths and head positioning. Also, we only really tried each exercise for a short distance - no more than a quarter of the arena each time - before I dropped out of it or switched. We've worked a bit on getting collection a few times since then, but we really hadn't worked with extended trot again until this lesson. 

In this case I was working on extended trot in the sense of stride-lengthening and body position, but I was _also_ letting Dragon set the rhythm without slowing her down. Because of the mood she was in this ended up resulting in a much faster beat than I usually ride her with (possibly then I've ever ridden her with to be honest). Extended trot + faster rhythm = fastest I've ever gone on a horse.


----------



## Tazzie

Is your instructor looking for a faster rhythm as well as a longer stride?

It's just so VASTLY different from what I had placed into my mind YEARS ago (like, over 15 years ago at this point.) My instructor once told me that you should be able to put a horse behind a screen (or I guess you could blindfold the listeners lol) and ride the horse at a working trot (asked for at intro and training level), lengthened trot (asked for at first), medium trot (asked for at second and above), collected trot (asked for at second and above), extended trot (asked for at third level and above), and piaffe and passage (asked at grand prix) and the viewers wouldn't be able to tell at what type of trot the horse was in. So they rhythm should never change. The tempo should never change. The impulsion is what changes. The length of stride changes. Not the rhythm :wink:

And this is my own pet peeve. The term "headset". If the trainer is trying to train you in Dressage, the term headset shouldn't come up. Headset is what I see in A LOT of my rail classes, where the riders don't care at all what the rest of the horse is doing long as the head is pretty. In Dressage, you ride them correctly back to front where the back comes up and the head settles into a comfortable position. That is just my own personal thing though :lol: I'd like to think your trainer is teaching you more than just making the head look pretty!

Also, I agree with Raina. I'd love to see a video! I had a fairly basic instruction in lengthening the trot before I trained my mare to do one. And now extended trots are about my favorite thing ever to watch. No joke, I could watch Valegro go all day in the extended trot  so I'd love to see yours!


----------



## Tihannah

I'm with the others. You seem to have a natural talent for this and picking up on it super fast! I'm jealous as I've been riding typically 5 days a week for the past year and a half and I still struggle with getting my body to balance correctly in a posting trot! I've only just started understanding how to use my body and seat to influence my horse. Maybe it's easier with a more educated mount, but good job!


----------



## Cammey

Tazzie said:


> Is your instructor looking for a faster rhythm as well as a longer stride?
> 
> It's just so VASTLY different from what I had placed into my mind YEARS ago (like, over 15 years ago at this point.) My instructor once told me that you should be able to put a horse behind a screen (or I guess you could blindfold the listeners lol) and ride the horse at a working trot (asked for at intro and training level), lengthened trot (asked for at first), medium trot (asked for at second and above), collected trot (asked for at second and above), extended trot (asked for at third level and above), and piaffe and passage (asked at grand prix) and the viewers wouldn't be able to tell at what type of trot the horse was in. So they rhythm should never change. The tempo should never change. The impulsion is what changes. The length of stride changes. Not the rhythm :wink:


Jill was looking for lengthening of stride and general position. I _also_ sped up rhythm and was surprised when she didn't ask me to slow it down. I’ll admit: I sped up for two reasons - first, because it was easier to get her into the lengthened strides if I made it very clear I wanted ‘forward’ and since I was just really ‘getting’ it I didn’t want to mess it up by risking my half-halt would tell her to collect up rather than just slow down. Second (brutal honesty here) because I was really, really enjoying myself and kind of wanted to see how fast this all could go. I know I will need to work on speed control while doing this at the same time. 

I am at the very, very beginning of getting introduced to a lot of these things. Now, a lot of movements are getting introduced (which a lot of people seem to view as very strange I take it) but at this point it’s mostly a matter of working to find the cues for the various things - I know I have a long way to go beyond just that. 



Tazzie said:


> And this is my own pet peeve. The term "headset". If the trainer is trying to train you in Dressage, the term headset shouldn't come up. Headset is what I see in A LOT of my rail classes, where the riders don't care at all what the rest of the horse is doing long as the head is pretty. In Dressage, you ride them correctly back to front where the back comes up and the head settles into a comfortable position. That is just my own personal thing though :lol: I'd like to think your trainer is teaching you more than just making the head look pretty!


Admittedly, I was introduced to the concept of ‘headset’ first (actually in western jog) and we’ve continued to use the term quite a bit. Headset seems to be a major cue for Dragon in terms of telling her what we’re supposed to be doing. Note that this doesn’t mean I think that frame=collection. To be really honest, to me collection=bouncy short steps. Yes, I’m aware that’s a dramatic oversimplification and those aren’t my trainer's words/instructions - but it’s how I’ve come to think of it in terms of the feeling I’m going for. Intellectually, I’m aware of the german training pyramid (and we’ve been over Impulsion->Straightness->Collection in lessons). I know that collection has more to do with strengthening the hind-quarters and getting her to pull her legs in and up under herself so that the forehand is lighter and has mobility to actually perform collection… But for all that theory when I’m trying to make it happen, I’m actually thinking something along the lines of: “high energy little steps and let’s go bounce, bounce, bounce” wherein the bounces are very subtle/gentle little half-halts (almost sub-half-halts - like half halts I don’t really mean) in which I tense my calves almost like I want to pull her body up with me as I post up. Laugh all you want at my 5-year-old sounding brain, but this is how I’ve found I’m best able to get the motion - more refinement will hopefully come later.

This also doesn’t mean I’m great at any of this. Straightness for example, especially on straightaways, is still something I’m still really working on. She has a slight bend to one side that’s actually easier to get rid of on curves of any sort (because I’m specifically asking her to do something) but I’m still working on getting her to stay straight on straightaways without either relying on the reins or over/under correcting. She’s capable of straight - I can get it sometimes - but I can be very inconsistent with it at this point. 

Now, I can see an argument I shouldn’t be working on collection at all if I don’t have straightness completely down. I don’t really have much comment on that other than this is the way I’m being taught. To be honest I seem to be picking a lot of it up in layers - we'll touch on one area, then move over to talking about another, then work back around to a prior step and review earlier exercise with more depth. 

It’s worth remembering that the horse I’m working on knows all this stuff very solidly, and the thing I need to figure out how to do at each step is just how I find the proper cues to ask and remind with. So basically I’m learning this as: Instructor explains cue, I try cue, Dragon does something (hopefully the thing I asked for). If she does the thing I ask for usually then I just work on trying to remember/get that consistently. Sometimes Jill tells me to change it anyway because I did it slightly wrong but still got what I wanted (i.e. cheating). Often after I ‘get’ the cue I will then spend a lot of time working on getting it consistently, improving whatever I might have slipped up on while doing it (... heels… leaning forward…) or otherwise working on things. This is where I am right now with *most* things I’ve been taught - I’ve gotten them a few times and am sort of learning what’s ‘right’ but am needing to work on getting them consistently and not making other mistakes while I’m focused on what I’m doing. 



Tazzie said:


> Also, I agree with Raina. I'd love to see a video! I had a fairly basic instruction in lengthening the trot before I trained my mare to do one. And now extended trots are about my favorite thing ever to watch. No joke, I could watch Valegro go all day in the extended trot  so I'd love to see yours!


So here I’m torn. The thing is I am a big believer of ‘once it’s on the internet, it never goes away’ so I’m often very hesitant to put pictures/videos up online - this is just a privacy thing. On the other hand, there are some people’s opinions I’d be very curious to hear - not so much if I’m doing well (I suspect I’m a mess) but more in terms of where people think my effort would best be spent in improving. This is true both for this forum but also for my horse-friends out in Denver who I genuinely would like to share my progress with. 

I’m also getting a little self-conscious to be honest because it seems that everyone on here thinks I’m claiming to be brilliant at things… which I’m *really, really not*. I get the feeling some people want to see video solely for the purposes of saying something along the lines of ‘Ha! You’re actually no good at this!’... Well no surprise there: I’ve been at this like a couple months. I’m usually pretty good with incorporating critique and I have a great deal of respect for some of the people on this forum - but there are also some people I feel are likely to go on the offensive with anything I put out there and I’m weighing if that’s really something I want to put myself out there for in a public forum. 

So my current thought is to see ask if my instructor will take videos of a couple things I myself am curious about (notably how I look in collection vs. extended trot because I’d really like to see the difference between how it looks on the ground vs. how it feels in the saddle) and then share that with a few people who express interest. I mean, I think just about anyone who enjoys dressage can watch Valegro do just about anything all day - he’s a dream to watch. But that’s very different from watching my early-learning process where I’m ecstatic just to cue and maintain the movement properly.



Tihannah said:


> I'm with the others. You seem to have a natural talent for this and picking up on it super fast! I'm jealous as I've been riding typically 5 days a week for the past year and a half and I still struggle with getting my body to balance correctly in a posting trot! I've only just started understanding how to use my body and seat to influence my horse. Maybe it's easier with a more educated mount, but good job!


Thank you.

Honestly, I suspect her education is helping me _a lot_. I’m fairly reliant right now on the fact that if I can cue properly she will respond properly, and if she responds properly and Jill doesn’t tell me I’m cheating in some fashion then I’m probably getting my cue mostly right. My suspicion is that learning at the same time the horse is learning would be 100x harder, and honestly I am very curious to see how much this falls apart once I’m put on a horse who I actually have to really work to get into the proper position.

I also credit her with really forcing me to learn the influence of my seat right off the bat somewhat just due to being sensitive. The first day I rode her I was already finding that how I shifted around would influence where she walked and that if I turned my hips she would follow them. That wasn’t really even an intentional thing the first time I did it - just something I realized as I was walking around with her. The downside of course is that she responds to the seat whether or not I want her to - be it weaving around like a drunken sailor when I first started posting trot or speeding up when I was working on two-point. To be honest, as time has gone on I’ve come to suspect some of my perceived problems _with her_ have actually been problems _with me_ - notably my issues around halting and speeding up. Now, it’s true that I am not the entire source of the problem, but I think when she’s in a more energetic/sensitive mood she tends to take any leaning forward and my tendency to (imho very subtly) tense my legs to balance myself as me getting ready to increase pace. 

So I really think a lot of the talent has mostly been a combination of opportunity, being able to take multiple private hour-long lessons a week, and the fact that honestly more of the balance/weight-shifting/physical conditioning from my prior athletic endeavors seems to be applicable than I thought. This honestly is where I think most of the balance comes from - I've always been more of a technical climber (mostly to compensate for my weight honestly) and a large part of that is really learning how to shift my weight and balance in both static and dynamic movements. I really didn't think any of this would help me in riding, but just based on the difference between my experience with finding balance and what everyone else here is describing I'm beginning to think this experience may be helping me out more than I had given it credit for.

Really mostly I'm just thankful for the opportunities I have out here (controversial though they may be). About the only other thing I wish I had out here was someone to go riding with.


----------



## Cammey

*Third Solo-Ride*

So I walked into tonight with a couple new friends:










I wanted an indirect light source which wasn’t blinding to look at but which would send light out a fair distance. The lantern somehow manages to be both bright enough to illuminate a fairly large area (testing it out I could see probably a good 40-50’) yet at the same time not blinding if it was looked at directly. The carabiner is for hooking it to a belt loop. The lantern is a tiny bit heavy for that, but not so bad as to be unmanageable. The flashlight is a directed-beam light for seeing things fairly far away and a backup just because. 

Of course, the night I come out all prepared I end up not needing to use them. All of our school horses were already in stalls and by the look of Dragon’s feet the farrier was out today.

I walked into tonight’s ride determined to actually get some genuine practice/work in rather than just going over things I was already pretty good at. I started out with a standard warm-up and could tell pretty quickly that Dragon was going to be a little feisty. She was listening well enough, but even at the warmup I was getting her ‘power walk’ right out the gate and her head was up and alert. I could get her to put her head down and slow in pace - but while transitions were getting obedience they weren't getting genuine relaxation. I had a little bit of bit-chomping before we even got through warmup. She was listening just fine, but she was very alert and active.

I started off with working walk - which once again she gave me very easily, so once again I stopped with it after a fairly short time. I then moved on to seat steering with a loose rein, which went reasonably well. I did it both in the walk and western jog. I checked a little for spookiness (which mostly comprised of making sure we covered the entirety of the arena and went past every fence and corner to be sure none of them were causing jumpiness today) and found her unperturbed, which was nice given her energy levels, so I decided it would be ok to try a few things I knew would probably be a little more prone to not being calming.

I started off with trying to get bend without relying on the reins - ‘play with it’ as Jill had asked me to do. I got it a few times… then I lost it… then I got something else (a tight circle… I am legit confused but very convinced this was my error somehow)… then I got good bend again and decided that was a good note to end on. The overall attempts were erratic enough that I didn’t want to work on it too long and have decided I want a refresher from Jill before I try it again. I can get the bend easily enough if I keep some tension on the rein, but the instant I try to slacken it my results get really inconsistent, with the most common result being that I get the bend but she also tries to turn in around my leg (so maybe I am leaning somehow?). Dragon didn’t seem to be getting actually upset, but she was getting increasingly alert as she tried to figure out what the heck I was doing, so as soon as I got a good bend for a few moments I took it as an opportunity to move to somewhere more familiar.

Honestly, this is probably where I should have stopped with the newer stuff and started working on more calming material, but the two things I still wanted to work on were leg yields and cavaletti. 

We did a couple passes on leg yields from the quarter line, all at western jog. These were so-so. For the first when I asked for side-step I actually got a beautiful bend as if we were still doing the last exercise but very little in the way of side-steps. For the second run-through I got bend and side-step but her rear-end fell behind. For the third I got a lovely bend and small-but-distinct side steps. The fourth finally I got a good bend and some side steps of a size I was quite pleased with, so we ended on that one. 

I then took one pass at three cavaletti which were set up. To my surprise, despite heading up on them with a pretty smooth turn Dragon actually seemed a little surprised that I really wanted her to go over them and actually started to turn away at the last second before I corrected her back to straight. This resulted in her coming onto the cavaletti at a slight angle rather than square and centered, which made the distances between each pole a touch longer than they should have been. On one hand, I wondered what I messed up in communication to her so that she seemed surprised. On the other hand, I was pleased that despite a last-moment adjustment we went over them without any real difficulty. Unfortunately, despite the fact we moved over them smoothly the surprise seemed to finally push Dragon from 'energetic' over into 'slightly nervous', and I realized I had done just a touch too much. Now, this wasn't bad - it's not a degree of excitement that would have bothered me much if I were doing a lesson, but since I was alone riding her I decided that I didn't want to risk her getting too stressed so ending on the good job of getting over the cavaletti was enough of an excuse for us to start cool down. 

We managed to get a nice cool down, and when I brought her back I gave her some carrots (Jill said we could bring extra treats for the holidays) and a nice long grooming session. She seemed to really like the carrots, and I almost ended up with her begging - which she usually really doesn’t do - and any pushing her in the arena seemed forgotten. 

In retrospect, I think I really tried to pack too much into a single riding session for a solo ride, especially given she was already pretty alert starting out. In the future I think I’m just going to work on one or _maybe_ two things that fall into the ‘slightly stressful’ category in a session and then spend the rest of the time working more on things I know fall more in the neutral or relaxing buckets. Specifically, it was too much to combine leg yields and working on bend - even if I just did it in Tuesday’s lesson - because I don’t possess Jill’s keen eye in knowing exactly the right moment to transition between exercises, and because for now I don’t want her getting as excited when I’m alone at night as I’m comfortable with in lessons. Objectively, she was actually calmer tonight than she was on Tuesday - but my tolerance for it is just different based on the changed circumstance, which is good for me to realize.

Overall, it was a good learning experience - though possibly more on a meta-level about structuring sessions then the actual riding itself.


----------



## Tazzie

Cammey said:


> Jill was looking for lengthening of stride and general position. I _also_ sped up rhythm and was surprised when she didn't ask me to slow it down. I’ll admit: I sped up for two reasons - first, because it was easier to get her into the lengthened strides if I made it very clear I wanted ‘forward’ and since I was just really ‘getting’ it I didn’t want to mess it up by risking my half-halt would tell her to collect up rather than just slow down. Second (brutal honesty here) because I was really, really enjoying myself and kind of wanted to see how fast this all could go. I know I will need to work on speed control while doing this at the same time.
> 
> I am at the very, very beginning of getting introduced to a lot of these things. Now, a lot of movements are getting introduced (which a lot of people seem to view as very strange I take it) but at this point it’s mostly a matter of working to find the cues for the various things - I know I have a long way to go beyond just that.
> 
> 
> 
> Admittedly, I was introduced to the concept of ‘headset’ first (actually in western jog) and we’ve continued to use the term quite a bit. Headset seems to be a major cue for Dragon in terms of telling her what we’re supposed to be doing. Note that this doesn’t mean I think that frame=collection. To be really honest, to me collection=bouncy short steps. Yes, I’m aware that’s a dramatic oversimplification and those aren’t my trainer's words/instructions - but it’s how I’ve come to think of it in terms of the feeling I’m going for. Intellectually, I’m aware of the german training pyramid (and we’ve been over Impulsion->Straightness->Collection in lessons). I know that collection has more to do with strengthening the hind-quarters and getting her to pull her legs in and up under herself so that the forehand is lighter and has mobility to actually perform collection… But for all that theory when I’m trying to make it happen, I’m actually thinking something along the lines of: “high energy little steps and let’s go bounce, bounce, bounce” wherein the bounces are very subtle/gentle little half-halts (almost sub-half-halts - like half halts I don’t really mean) in which I tense my calves almost like I want to pull her body up with me as I post up. Laugh all you want at my 5-year-old sounding brain, but this is how I’ve found I’m best able to get the motion - more refinement will hopefully come later.
> 
> This also doesn’t mean I’m great at any of this. Straightness for example, especially on straightaways, is still something I’m still really working on. She has a slight bend to one side that’s actually easier to get rid of on curves of any sort (because I’m specifically asking her to do something) but I’m still working on getting her to stay straight on straightaways without either relying on the reins or over/under correcting. She’s capable of straight - I can get it sometimes - but I can be very inconsistent with it at this point.
> 
> Now, I can see an argument I shouldn’t be working on collection at all if I don’t have straightness completely down. I don’t really have much comment on that other than this is the way I’m being taught. To be honest I seem to be picking a lot of it up in layers - we'll touch on one area, then move over to talking about another, then work back around to a prior step and review earlier exercise with more depth.
> 
> It’s worth remembering that the horse I’m working on knows all this stuff very solidly, and the thing I need to figure out how to do at each step is just how I find the proper cues to ask and remind with. So basically I’m learning this as: Instructor explains cue, I try cue, Dragon does something (hopefully the thing I asked for). If she does the thing I ask for usually then I just work on trying to remember/get that consistently. Sometimes Jill tells me to change it anyway because I did it slightly wrong but still got what I wanted (i.e. cheating). Often after I ‘get’ the cue I will then spend a lot of time working on getting it consistently, improving whatever I might have slipped up on while doing it (... heels… leaning forward…) or otherwise working on things. This is where I am right now with *most* things I’ve been taught - I’ve gotten them a few times and am sort of learning what’s ‘right’ but am needing to work on getting them consistently and not making other mistakes while I’m focused on what I’m doing.
> 
> 
> 
> So here I’m torn. The thing is I am a big believer of ‘once it’s on the internet, it never goes away’ so I’m often very hesitant to put pictures/videos up online - this is just a privacy thing. On the other hand, there are some people’s opinions I’d be very curious to hear - not so much if I’m doing well (I suspect I’m a mess) but more in terms of where people think my effort would best be spent in improving. This is true both for this forum but also for my horse-friends out in Denver who I genuinely would like to share my progress with.
> 
> I’m also getting a little self-conscious to be honest because it seems that everyone on here thinks I’m claiming to be brilliant at things… which I’m *really, really not*. I get the feeling some people want to see video solely for the purposes of saying something along the lines of ‘Ha! You’re actually no good at this!’... Well no surprise there: I’ve been at this like a couple months. I’m usually pretty good with incorporating critique and I have a great deal of respect for some of the people on this forum - but there are also some people I feel are likely to go on the offensive with anything I put out there and I’m weighing if that’s really something I want to put myself out there for in a public forum.
> 
> So my current thought is to see ask if my instructor will take videos of a couple things I myself am curious about (notably how I look in collection vs. extended trot because I’d really like to see the difference between how it looks on the ground vs. how it feels in the saddle) and then share that with a few people who express interest. I mean, I think just about anyone who enjoys dressage can watch Valegro do just about anything all day - he’s a dream to watch. But that’s very different from watching my early-learning process where I’m ecstatic just to cue and maintain the movement properly.


Still vastly different than my learning and understanding :lol: I don't post faster with the lengthening, but bigger, if that makes sense.

Your instructor is just doing things extremely different how a lot of us learned. It's just odd for a student to be working on collection and extension, even if on a very basic level, so early on in the riding. I believe the majority of us would still be learning how to "ride the head down", though I know some people would flip out at my use of such a phrase. Basically it means getting the horse working correctly in the body to allow the head to sit in the proper place. Dressage riders still use bending and softening of the head and neck, but it is far from the only focus.

You could be learning a bit about shortening and lengthening of the stride, which could be handy in jumping perhaps (I admit I know nothing of jumping). But in terms of Dressage it's not quite right lol both require the horse to be "loading" his or her hindquarters which allow for the propulsion outwards (lengthening) or upwards (collection). Both ask for upwards and outwards as the suspension, but that's just the easiest I could think of to explain :lol:

As for videos, I understand being a private person, but looking back on old videos gives you great insight with how far you have come. I routinely look back on mine and cringe, but it shows me how much we've improved. I think if you put a "do not critique" request on your video, you'd be fine to post it. Or ask for constructive criticism. I really, really don't think any of those who have recently replied would just full on post "I thought you were amazing, so what is this???" You are a beginner, and we expect you to look as such :lol: but I know a few of us would love to help you if you have questions 

And for the record, it's any lengthenings I like :wink: I just used Valegro as an example, though I could watch him perform all day long. I enjoy watching anyone from rank beginners to seasoned upper level riders, as long as they are dedicated in learning (beginners), having some great moments (more the middle of the pack), or absolutely stunning (upper level). I'm a Dressage gal through and through, and I've watched MANY other riders at shows to show my support. This sport is smallish in that it doesn't appeal to a huge number of people like the more "exciting" sports. But those that do embark on this journey into it, realize this is a pretty exciting one too :wink: so I show my support regardless!


----------



## Tazzie

Cammey said:


> About the only other thing I wish I had out here was someone to go riding with.


Whoops, missed this. That is always my biggest wish too. My horse is the only horse in work where we are. The others are a horse given to a girl who is afraid to ride her, though my husband will on occasion, and a 32 year old gelding who is long since retired. So I'm always solo until we are at a show, or I haul her to ride with friends.


----------



## Hondo

I never ride solo. I always have my horse with me


----------



## bsms

Riding solo means there is no one to call for help if you break a leg, get knocked unconscious, etc. It is part of risk management. I'm generally more adventurous if there is someone nearby - with fingers & a phone. OTOH, I'm more likely to canter with Bandit alone than with someone else because he has a racing background and gets competitive with another horse. But if I'm not wearing a helmet, I back off.

It comes down to learning to read your horse - the horse you are on that moment, not the (same) horse you rode yesterday or were riding an hour ago - and "what-iffing" the possible consequences. If I don't have my flip phone in my front jeans pocket, don't have a helmet on and no one is in the house to call anyways...I may not leave the arena. Too much potential pain for too little potential gain.

Sounds like you are learning to be aware of Dragon's mind and emotions and how to adjust what you do to what you can be safe doing at that moment - WITH Dragon. That, to me, is the true key to safe riding.

FWIW, perhaps the biggest problem I had in training Mia to be calmer was failing to build a solid foundation of calmness and confidence at one level before trying the next. I've taken things much slower with Bandit, but we're making a lot more progress in less time. Helps when your foundation doesn't crumble out from under you!


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## Hondo

Hee, I am fully aware of what riding solo means and the risks involved. But I used to actually ride solo in some very remote places with a machine.

So I just made a hip shot reaction because I actually do not feel the aloneness or soloness that I used to feel now that I'm riding Hondo.

That said, I do carry a personal S.P.O.T. locator with helicopter extraction option, just in case.

I just need to train Hondo to push the HELP button in case I can't.


----------



## NavigatorsMom

Tazzie said:


> As for videos, I understand being a private person, but looking back on old videos gives you great insight with how far you have come. I routinely look back on mine and cringe, but it shows me how much we've improved. I think if you put a "do not critique" request on your video, you'd be fine to post it. Or ask for constructive criticism. I really, really don't think any of those who have recently replied would just full on post "I thought you were amazing, so what is this???" You are a beginner, and we expect you to look as such :lol: but I know a few of us would love to help you if you have questions


100% agree with the old videos thing. It is so great to be able to look back and say "wow, I really have gotten better!", not to mention having some memories of Dragon for when you move on to another horse.  

That said, I definitely understand the hesitation about putting anything out there. I think there is typically a much more positive reaction to videos posted in journals (rather than a critique thread), and I highly doubt anyone who has been following you would jump down your throat for your abilities at this point. Personally, I enjoy getting many opinions from others on this forum, and you have a good following of people who can give you some good insight! Of course then you can go through, read, and see what matches up with your instructor and what differs. Or perhaps someone will give you a comment that explains a problem you've been having differently and it will finally click. 

Your choice of course! But I think many of us would love to see you ride, and see Dragon.


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## Tazzie

I never, ever ride solo. When you come off in a bad way and the EMT in the ambulance tells you straight up if your husband hadn't been there that you WOULD have bled out, it nailed in the importance of having someone nearby. Because yes, I almost died and I have the scar on my arm to prove it. I ruptured the brachial artery in my right arm. Thanks to my husband, I'm here and I have use of my arm. I also didn't need a blood transfusion.

But given the choice of riding "alone" (as in my husband is always hanging out with me) or riding with a friend, I'd like to ride with a friend. I went on a trail ride with a fellow forum member and it was wonderful to be with our ponies and chit chat along the way.

THAT is what I meant by understanding about riding alone. I'm never alone, and I don't take my horse for granted, but it's nice to have friends to hack around with.


----------



## Whinnie

Cammey said:


> I genuinely, genuinely do not know how to respond to your incredulity here. On one hand you're basically telling me I'm too good to be true which is... weirdly flattering to the point it's hard to be cross about. On the other hand, I worry I'm misrepresenting something about my experience that's leading you to that belief, since I don't feel nearly as awesome as that statement seems to be making me out to be. Either way, I kind of have to shrug and say 'take it as you will'.
> 
> To ignore tone for a moment and take your statement more literally: I have no idea. I do want to compete at some point to get an idea where I'm at and see if I enjoy it, but that will come at its own time whenever I'm ready. I've given up on guessing at anything involving timelines right now.


Well, what do your long time equestrian friends think about you showing in the spring considering your progress? Have they been encouraging? What kind of feedback have they been giving you about your lessons?


----------



## Cammey

Tazzie said:


> Still vastly different than my learning and understanding :lol: I don't post faster with the lengthening, but bigger, if that makes sense.


That does make sense actually. 



Tazzie said:


> Your instructor is just doing things extremely different how a lot of us learned. It's just odd for a student to be working on collection and extension, even if on a very basic level, so early on in the riding.


Yeah, I’m going to be honest: I have no idea why I’m learning dressage moves either. 

Mostly, this stable does H/J (mostly showjumping) and then a little eventing - though most of the photos/announcements I’ve seen of students has just been at the beginner or novice levels, and I believe Dragon can be borrowed to compete at events up to the training level currently (though I think in the past she’s done prelim). I will note that the USEF training level dressage tests don’t have any of these movements. At this point I’m not yet jumping at all - just doing cavaletti series - and keep in mind I still haven’t gone up to the canter. 

This isn’t a complaint. What all this has been doing is teaching me just a tremendous amount about the effects of the aids, use of my seat, timing, etc. I definitely feel like I am improving overall as a rider and really coming to understand how my body and actions affect the horse. I’m also glad because to be honest Dragon has a lot of ‘buttons’ which I have periodically accidentally hit as time has gone by, and it’s therefore been very good to know what each of them do so I understand what’s going on when she reacts to something. But yeah, I do see how it’s pretty weird given that I wouldn’t expect to use any of these motions for quite a long time - unless I was actually doing pure dressage. 

I haven’t actually asked Jill about this - because to be honest it didn’t strike me as that weird until we got into this discussion (I hadn’t thought to look up what the eventing dressage tests actually contain for example). I do know I’m enjoying it tremendously and feel like I’m learning an incredible amount. But I’m not sure if she’s trying to seduce me to the world of dressage (I know she loves it but very few students around here do), using it as a baseline for getting an understanding of cues (because it is a lot easier for me to understand the uses of the aids when they create such dramatic motions to be honest) or possibly just giving me something to work on at slower speeds as I get more hours in the saddle and work to develop consistency and learn to manage Dragon when she gets more excited and reactive… I really don’t know. I do know I’m really enjoying it and feel I’m learning a tremendous amount, but I am seeing now how the progression is quite odd. 



Tazzie said:


> As for videos, I understand being a private person, but looking back on old videos gives you great insight with how far you have come. I routinely look back on mine and cringe, but it shows me how much we've improved. I think if you put a "do not critique" request on your video, you'd be fine to post it. Or ask for constructive criticism. I really, really don't think any of those who have recently replied would just full on post "I thought you were amazing, so what is this???" You are a beginner, and we expect you to look as such :lol: but I know a few of us would love to help you if you have questions


Oh, I definitely know I want some videos for myself at this point. @tinyliny actually proposed it a while ago and I’ve been trying to find a good time to make it happen ever since. It’s more a question of how publicly I want to share it over the internet. Either way the first thing to do is see if my trainer is willing to take film of me one of the days we’re working on these exercises. I had some ambitions of trying to get a friend to video me during my private sessions, but at this point I’m not really working on the interesting stuff at that time anyway, so really it does seem to need to be my trainer. 



Tazzie said:


> And for the record, it's any lengthenings I like :wink: I just used Valegro as an example, though I could watch him perform all day long. I enjoy watching anyone from rank beginners to seasoned upper level riders, as long as they are dedicated in learning (beginners), having some great moments (more the middle of the pack), or absolutely stunning (upper level). I'm a Dressage gal through and through, and I've watched MANY other riders at shows to show my support. This sport is smallish in that it doesn't appeal to a huge number of people like the more "exciting" sports. But those that do embark on this journey into it, realize this is a pretty exciting one too :wink: so I show my support regardless!


Well, I’m definitely in the rank beginner category - but the support is very much appreciated. As mentioned, I haven’t really decided what disciplines I want to go into - though yes, a lot of the stuff I’ve been working on _has_ been getting me more interested in pure dressage. 



Tazzie said:


> Whoops, missed this. That is always my biggest wish too. My horse is the only horse in work where we are. The others are a horse given to a girl who is afraid to ride her, though my husband will on occasion, and a 32 year old gelding who is long since retired. So I'm always solo until we are at a show, or I haul her to ride with friends.


The nice thing where I am is that there technically are a lot of people at the barn who ride, and in theory most of us are riding with similar goals (though I am one of only a handful of students not yet jumping even in lessons, and possibly the only one who leases). But to be honest: most of the other students here are teenage women - they are absolutely lovely and I’d be happy to ride with them, but that thought is unlikely to be reciprocated, especially with the slow work I’m doing right now. I know there are some college-aged and older women around here as well, but I’ve yet to run into them. Really, I just wish I could coordinate ride-times with someone else so that we’ve got someone else in the arena in case of emergencies. 

On Monday I’m going out with a college friend of mine to visit his sister, who is very into horses (as in, lives on a stable property solely so she could have horses at her home and does dressage) and who works in a similar industry as myself - so there’s a hope there. But I don’t really have a partner-in-crime to work with and best case she’d be an hour away. My SO has no interest in horses and barely tolerates all my chatter about them. My old climbing partner has offered to come sit and watch me ride once or twice… but that would require her sitting in the freezing cold right now, so I feel a little guilty.



Hondo said:


> I never ride solo. I always have my horse with me


 



bsms said:


> Riding solo means there is no one to call for help if you break a leg, get knocked unconscious, etc. It is part of risk management. I'm generally more adventurous if there is someone nearby - with fingers & a phone. OTOH, I'm more likely to canter with Bandit alone than with someone else because he has a racing background and gets competitive with another horse. But if I'm not wearing a helmet, I back off.
> 
> It comes down to learning to read your horse - the horse you are on that moment, not the (same) horse you rode yesterday or were riding an hour ago - and "what-iffing" the possible consequences. If I don't have my flip phone in my front jeans pocket, don't have a helmet on and no one is in the house to call anyways...I may not leave the arena. Too much potential pain for too little potential gain.
> 
> Sounds like you are learning to be aware of Dragon's mind and emotions and how to adjust what you do to what you can be safe doing at that moment - WITH Dragon. That, to me, is the true key to safe riding.
> 
> FWIW, perhaps the biggest problem I had in training Mia to be calmer was failing to build a solid foundation of calmness and confidence at one level before trying the next. I've taken things much slower with Bandit, but we're making a lot more progress in less time. Helps when your foundation doesn't crumble out from under you!


The unconscious bit is the one that really worries me, or injured severely enough out catching that I can’t safely haul myself out of the paddock and make sure I stay warm (hypothermia). Those are the two situations I am genuinely scared of. That said, I’ve never even contemplated riding without a helmet at this point (English H/J school… I’ve literally never _heard_ of anyone riding without a helmet in practice - it’s that strong cultural norm), and so far I’ve also never been outside the arena mounted on Dragon. I do ride with my phone - but admittedly I also suffer from an issue of ‘who to call’. Most of my friends are an hour or so drive away. Though on the plus side, I absolutely trust them to come help me - they’re the sorts of friends I could call at 3 am from another state and they’d take off work and drive over to help. I’ve also got insurance of a sort where if I need to do a 911 call it’s not going to bankrupt me - so I’ve got an array of options depending on severity. But in all cases, I will need to initiate my own rescue - which means I need to be conscious and able to be stable long enough to wait for help. 

To be honest, even with Dragon genuinely worked up I’m about 95% confident I’d be able to manage her just fine at this point - I mean, I’ve managed her on that no-good-very-bad Sunday, and that was her genuinely panicking to the point that she was having a hard time thinking straight. I really do see how she is a ‘good beginner horse’ in this regard (for a Sport TB). It’s not that she never gets hot - it’s that even when she’s genuinely really frightened she doesn’t seem to have any desire to get her rider off her - just get the heck out of dodge. She also doesn’t really seem to go from calm->freaked out in a flash the way I’ve read some horses (especially by the sounds of it some Arabs) can be prone to. With her so far every time I’ve seen her get jumpy she just gives a tremendous amount of warning. Figuring out if you want to push into that warning or heed it can be a decision requiring some thought - but at least either way you know what you’re getting into. 

But the thing is that once she’s spooky the only real answer is to deal with it and not let her make something out of something that’s not there - otherwise she takes it as confirmation that there really *is* something concerning. When she’s feeling good she’s a fairly independent and brave mare, often wanting to go off on an adventure - but once she gets worked up she becomes very dependent on her rider or any other horses whose opinion she respects. I think it’s actually kind of sweet honestly.

The issue is I don’t yet really trust it. I might even safely be able to - but she’s also surprised me before with her fake-spook and I’m under no illusions I know her full range of behaviors. I really would rather I come off her my first time during lessons as opposed to when I’m alone in the arena at night. I want someone else there to catch her if necessary. So really pushing her spookiness and finding new buttons isn’t something I want to do out alone. I very much agree with your opinion here:“Too much potential for pain for too little potential for gain.” 



Whinnie said:


> Well, what do your long time equestrian friends think about you showing in the spring considering your progress? Have they been encouraging? What kind of feedback have they been giving you about your lessons?


I haven’t actually spoken with them about showing, or even lesson details as much. Honestly, more of the things I’ve been talking about with them has been when I’ve wanted to get additional opinions on safety/risk, horse training, groundwork, how to ride spooks, horse breeds, and a lot of the stuff I feel I really should know but haven’t been explicitly going over in lessons. It’s been stuff like ‘how crazy is it to ride out alone at night,’ ‘is herd catching a normal thing?’ etc. 

The person I’ve been speaking with most frequently does western instead of english, so talking about details of the dressage stuff I’m looking at didn’t seem to make as much sense. Mostly honestly I’ve been listening to tales of the continued training of Myth (a recent mustang madness graduate gelding) and his antics, how to handle spooks/spins/crazy things horses do. My other friend out there is mid-process of having picked out a BLM mustang, taken it to a trainer, and is being involved in watching a bunch of the training sessions and learning - so mostly I’ve just been hearing bunches about that.

The theme over there right now seems to be all about Mustangs and I’ve mostly just been listening.



Hondo said:


> Hee, I am fully aware of what riding solo means and the risks involved. But I used to actually ride solo in some very remote places with a machine.
> 
> So I just made a hip shot reaction because I actually do not feel the aloneness or soloness that I used to feel now that I'm riding Hondo.
> 
> That said, I do carry a personal S.P.O.T. locator with helicopter extraction option, just in case.
> 
> I just need to train Hondo to push the HELP button in case I can't.


Yeah, not going to lie, if I were riding around in the middle of nowhere, S.P.O.T. would look like a tempting investment. I used to enjoy wandering around like a fool up in the Porkies (Porcupine Mountains) and out in the Keweenaw well off any trails and almost always out by myself - frequently at night. Cell reception is absolute crap up there (or at least was) and I really wish something like S.P.O.T. had been available or if it was I had the sense to invest in it. Nothing happened of course - I never got so much as a sprained ankle out there - but it would have been smart if I had thought ahead. 



NavigatorsMom said:


> 100% agree with the old videos thing. It is so great to be able to look back and say "wow, I really have gotten better!", not to mention having some memories of Dragon for when you move on to another horse.


Agreed on the looking back (as I mentioned in a prior reply). Also the point about Dragon is… sad but true. I figure I’ll be a ‘beginner’ for a good long time… but I also know that getting me onto a different horse is going to be a priority, because (as people have mentioned) Dragon’s schedule tends to be pretty packed. I adore her and she’s always going to have the distinction of being the first horse I’ve ridden and learned on… but there’s obvious ill wisdom in growing too attached. 



NavigatorsMom said:


> That said, I definitely understand the hesitation about putting anything out there. I think there is typically a much more positive reaction to videos posted in journals (rather than a critique thread), and I highly doubt anyone who has been following you would jump down your throat for your abilities at this point. Personally, I enjoy getting many opinions from others on this forum, and you have a good following of people who can give you some good insight! Of course then you can go through, read, and see what matches up with your instructor and what differs. Or perhaps someone will give you a comment that explains a problem you've been having differently and it will finally click.
> 
> Your choice of course! But I think many of us would love to see you ride, and see Dragon.


Yeah, that feedback aspect is the one that most appeals to me. 



Tazzie said:


> I never, ever ride solo. When you come off in a bad way and the EMT in the ambulance tells you straight up if your husband hadn't been there that you WOULD have bled out, it nailed in the importance of having someone nearby. Because yes, I almost died and I have the scar on my arm to prove it. I ruptured the brachial artery in my right arm. Thanks to my husband, I'm here and I have use of my arm. I also didn't need a blood transfusion.
> 
> But given the choice of riding "alone" (as in my husband is always hanging out with me) or riding with a friend, I'd like to ride with a friend. I went on a trail ride with a fellow forum member and it was wonderful to be with our ponies and chit chat along the way.
> 
> THAT is what I meant by understanding about riding alone. I'm never alone, and I don't take my horse for granted, but it's nice to have friends to hack around with.


Unfortunately at this point truly alone (i.e. no one else at the barn) is making up about a third of my ride time. It’s all indoor arena riding - but yes, your illustrative example of the dangers is a good one. Simply put: I don’t have anyone who’d be willing to head out with me that often. I already annoy my SO enough with horses, and it’s literally asking someone to sit and watch me in the freezing cold an hour away. It’s alone or not at all for me at this point. 

An actual friend who rides would be even better - or even just someone else who rides who I could coordinate times with. But it seems most people who ride don’t need to keep my type of hours, and if given the choice would rather not ride late at night. This makes sense, but it also makes things tricky for me. 

I’ve even thought some things like offering to buy someone else a quarter-lease if they’d ride at the same times I do, just so I don’t have to be alone. That’s quite insanely expensive though, and at that point it’s tempting just to apply that money to more lessons. 

That’s the degree of pickle I’m in if I want to ride.


----------



## Cammey

*A Very Horsey Holiday*

*Solo Ride*
Today was my fourth solo-ride with Dragon. The weather was a (comparatively) balmy 35 degrees, which is about the warmest its been since I started riding at the indoor. There weren’t any other riders around, but there were two people going through the process of completely stripping/cleaning all the stalls, which included the use of some motor vehicles in the barn hauling out fresh shavings and in a pallet of new ones. All the noise and smell of motor engines bothered Dragon - enough to get her alert but not enough to really spook her. I started talking to her a little mostly so the other people in the barn would hear me and realize I was there, whereupon one of them came over to chat a bit. I believe he’s the husband in the family that owns the barn - but I’m only guessing. On the plus side, they said it’d be fine if I come by tomorrow (Jill has already said it’s OK for me to take the extra day since there are no lessons tomorrow) so that will be excellent. 

I had brought some apples out because it was Christmas Eve. They seemed mostly capable of distracting Dragon from the distressing noises. I really took my time grooming up with her to help calm her down and connect and decided that while I was ok to ride her a little hotter today we’d just do a very calm and relaxing set of exercises - basic gait changes, circles… nothing I thought likely to get her worked up.

Inside the arena the sound of water dripping from the roof was pretty loud (and I suspect completely new - because it’s the first time it has been this warm). There were also four-wheelers hauling things around outside. Fortunately, Dragon seemed completely immune to the sight of them through the arena door (in fact, it seemed to calm her down a little to actually spot them), though the noise when they ran along the sides she found a little more worrying. After about twenty minutes of gentle exercises she seemed to settle in and decide if I wasn’t worried about the noise then it probably wasn’t too bad - but it did mean that she was just a lot jumpier and prone to spooking in general than I’m used to.

It’s actually sort of interesting to realize about her: energetic, sensitive, and spooky are all tied to each other - but they’re not a complete overlap. She doesn’t go from zero-to-sixty so far that I’ve seen - though I’m sure something sufficiently big would do it. But in regards to spooking at random objects (in this case, some new decorations on the jumps) it really does seem to matter if she’s already scared or not the first time she encounters something. She also can have days where she’s energetic and sensitive - but very confident and sort of bouncy/happy. Or there can be days where she’s already a little scared and thus starts jumping at things (but actually wasn’t as crazy-energetic as she can get). 

When she gets scared she also seems to resort to trying really, really hard to behave… sometimes problematically so. 

Today it was more just humorous.

So in my last solo-ride I had been trying really, really hard to get a good walk-straight-and-bend - and just really wasn’t getting it. I’d get it a little bit, then she’d do something else, and she just obviously was a bit confused and I stopped the exercise on the note of her getting it because I wanted to end well but I also didn’t want to keep pushing it.

Today I had no intention of repeating that. She was already worked up and I was just starting to get her to calm down. But I did want to go back to do some more basic steering with my seat on semi-loose reins. You know, that exercise I’ve been doing for a long time now.

Well, apparently she remembers Thursday, because when I went to do basic seat steering she just didn’t turn - she just gave me this absolutely _beautiful_ bend - inside rein loose, back arched and stretched, head down and in - and kept going straight. 

...I just…

She did it to me twice. I broke out laughing. 

I really, really need to talk to Jill and figure out what the heck is going on and the difference I should be cuing between steering with my seat and asking for bend, because I think I legit am probably doing something flat-wrong. The theory as I understand it is that seat steering should involve turning the hips towards the direction I want to go, and getting bend without turning should be gently bumping her side a little while keeping things more forward… my best guess is my weight is shifted wrong, or I’m putting my legs in slightly the wrong place… or I don’t even know. Regardless, because I suspect this is my error rather than hers I’m not about to correct her on it, because I don’t want to accidentally untrain her. And heck, I can probably do that cue again if it turns out I just stumbled upon the right way to do it. 

So I just switched to a different exercise entirely, one with more bit-pressure which was sufficiently different I wasn’t worried about running into that set of behaviors again. We worked a bit more on posting trot, and then I finished out the night with a nice long walk (though unfortunately the 4-wheelers did kick up again right near the end). 

Overall, it was a nice day of riding and Dragon seemed a lot more relaxed near the end of it then she was at the beginning- which I’m especially thrilled about because I was able to combine ‘spooky’ and ‘nice ride’ into the same session. 

*Long Holiday*
This upcoming week I am actually off work. I work in the software industry, but the company I work for has an interesting policy in which everything except support shuts down between Christmas and New Years. Due to circumstances I don’t really do anything family-related for Christmas, and my social-group Christmas party already took place earlier in the month. I do a big New Years Eve party which I host - but that’s not until Saturday night. So I decided to pack my week off solid with horse stuff.

Here’s what I have planned: 



 *Tomorrow* I can ride solo again if I’d like - I’ve confirmed both with Jill and with the guy at the barn that they are in fact open and I’m OK to ride on Christmas Day.

 *Monday* I’m going out to visit a friend’s sister - who apparently very firmly in the horse world (lives on a stable property). She also works in a similar industry to myself and is around the same age - so I’m really hoping we might actually get on well. 

 *Tuesday* I have a meeting with the newly forming web-team for the horse sanctuary (because apparently two of us were working on it independently and we really should coordinate), then my normal lesson in the evening

 *Wednesday* I have my re-scheduled lesson from Christmas Sunday

 *Thursday* I have an extra lesson because I could

 *Friday* I have my re-scheduled lesson from New-Years Sunday

 *Saturday* I can solo-ride if I want - but I also will be having my New Years Party, so I’m not sure if I will find time to ride or not - we’ll see. 

Essentially it’s seven or eight days of back-to-back horses… I am both excited and curious to see how this goes.


----------



## Cammey

*Plans Overridden by Bored Horse (Solo Ride 5)*

So today I had a nice pleasant day of riding planned. Basically, I wanted a repeat of what I expected yesterday would be - just some nice gentle exercises in which we don’t try to do anything too fancy. Nice slow work. I didn’t want to overwork her after all.

When I went out to the paddock Dragon stepped away from the hay and looked at me expectantly. She probably thought I had apples (she was right). Still, it was nice to have her be so happy to see me. She was energetic tacking up - but not at all spooky. I was very much looking forward to the ride, and was perhaps considering that we should try something a little more energetic to suit her mood a little better. 

We started off with a warm-up and she was bouncily rushing right out the gate. I worked to calm and slow her down and she seemed to be listening, but also eager to get a move on. We went on like this for about twenty minutes or so - me trying to get a genuinely calm horse, and her trying to convince me to let her do something more exciting. I know that down that road can often lie a _very_ energetic horse, and I didn’t really want that while I was out solo with her. 

I wanted to work on something a little more interesting, if still slow, so I went for a nice relaxed western jog weaving around jumps in the center - just to give her something to pay attention to. Strangely, she started to get a bit nervous around one of the jumps. Now, mind you, this jump has been in the arena literally the entire time we’ve been riding - it’s not even one of the ones that has been changed or reconfigured recently. It’s the first jump you see walking in. There is nothing to my eyes terribly interesting or new about this jump.

So I began to work on some gentle de-spooking stuff… and she seemed to just keep getting worse. Every time we got near it, she’d start to get worked up. Every time we were away from it, she was fine - though after about ten minutes of that I noticed that another jump on the other side of the arena seemed to attract her ire as well. She didn’t seem freaked out or panicked, but these jumps were really bugging her and my attempts to de-spook and calm her down didn’t seem to be helping at all.

Then as I was doing a circle at the front of the arena, not terribly close to the problem jump but in a fashion that involved facing it, as we turned towards it she full-out splay-spooked at it - doing the big dramatic motion, but then seeming kind of fine afterwards as we moved on.

So, I got to discover that splay-spooks are not terribly hard to ride, which is nice to know (especially compared to sideways-jumping)… but now I was getting seriously worried and confused. 

Then it occurred to me… 

So the next time through when she started to get weird I gave her a firm kick and an angry tone - treating it like more serious misbehavior rather than spooking. It is really freaking counterintuitive to do this to a spooking horse - but I remembered seeing this behavior once before... 

Suddenly there was no more spook there… in fact, she intentionally trotted right next to it - pulling me closer to it than I had intended to force her. She was otherwise studiously ignoring it and making it very clear it was uninteresting to her now.

… Seriously?

She wasn’t spooked... she was bored. I now feel a little dumb for it taking so long to figure it out - the signs were all there, but it just seems so weird and it’s easy to get wrapped up in being nervous with her increasingly unpredictable behavior. I’m honestly glad she picked the splay-spook of the various options at her disposal - because it was easy to ride and yet dramatic enough it forced me to think about what exactly we were doing. 

In a way her behavior felt almost like some sort of minor betrayal. Like “Hey, I was all nice to you, so now you’re trying to take advantage of me?” Of course it isn’t like that… but it feels that way. I thought we were all getting along yesterday (and we were…). Jill has actually told me this about Dragon repeatedly - that she’s wonderful as long as you keep her in line… but it’s really easy to forget that when I'm wrapped up with what a good girl she is most of the time. 

I actually feel I probably wasn’t firm *enough* in retrospect - there are other people who ride her and this particular misbehavior needs to be dealt with decisively. But in my defense I was only about 85% sure that I was dealing with play-spooking rather than real spooking, and punishing a horse for being nervous feels flat out cruel. It did seem to get the job done - she was well behaved after that - but I don’t think I discouraged her from trying it again in the future. The next time I ride her will be with Jill, so I can hopefully talk with her about it.

I will say that riding her 3 times solo in a row has been a very interesting experience, and my list of things to talk to Jill about from it is getting pretty darn long at this point. This is probably a good thing.


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## tinyliny

if you feel she is thinking about spooking, and you can feel this through her body, it's not punishing her to get firm and insist she continue as directed. 
it's just redirecting her . she is probably not sure about things, and in the abcence of clear direction from you, she allows her energy to get her into a jumpy state. you chose a good time to step in and give her somethig else to focus on. growling at her, and booting her is just being firm. 
how else could you be more important in her mind then her growing concern with some silly thing she is using to focus a spook on?


sometimes with high strung horses, letting them trot out a bit at first can help slow them. for others, a walk is a better settling gait. you just have to be there riding the hrose to know which is best.


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## gottatrot

This is not a criticism of how you handled the situation with Dragon spooking, I think you did great. It's just another perspective you may or may not agree with. Something to consider as you are assessing horses now and in the future.

I have a little different opinion on this type of spooking than many people do. It's a little hard to explain, but I will try. I believe horses and animals are very intelligent, but I don't think they see things the way we do. I don't think they think about the things they do with a moral compass as "good," and "bad." I think they think about how things affect them and their emotions, and about how we react to the things they do. They learn that certain things they do make us react a certain way, and that other things they do lead to pleasantness or rewards. 

So I agree a horse might be bored or distracted and this might lead to spooking. But I don't think they think "now I am misbehaving." Instead, I think sometimes if a horse is in a certain mood, if we don't distract a horse enough with things that challenge them, they have more room to start thought patterns that lead to spooking. They might not notice a jump standard has an odd shadow coming off it tonight if we are trotting them briskly and they are focusing hard on turns left and right. But if they are doing something very easy and their thoughts drift, they might focus on that jump and start to notice that it looks kind of odd, and is that shadow moving...is it a shadow or a snake hiding underneath there?!? Spook.

So you getting after the horse might have been seen as a reprimand, but I don't necessarily think the horse thought "Oh yes, I'm not supposed to spook." More likely it snapped the horse's attention back onto you like if you were driving a car and losing focus and drifting toward the centerline when your passenger shouted at you. Suddenly your behavior is different, because you're focusing on the task at hand. 

Maybe it is not important - it may not matter we believe the horse responds to the reprimand because it makes them focus on work, or because they are goofing off. But I've just seen some riders that got more and more frustrated because their horse was "playing games," and they kept punishing but couldn't get the horse to stop this behavior of spooking at things on certain days. If you can snap the horse out of it, great, but if that doesn't work right away I've found it is helpful to either do something very active (treating it as an excess energy problem), even getting off and lunging for a bit, or to do something very mentally challenging (treating it as a focus issue), to get the horse thinking hard. 

Regardless, I don't see it as a bad behavior, even though the spooking is not something we want, the horse is not intentionally trying to upset us. I don't believe horses plot against us, even though what they do doesn't always turn out well for us. In the moment, I think horses do play games of trickery with each other, feinting one way and going another, pretending to slow so they can outrun another horse. But I don't think they plan ahead of time "let's block Daisy out of the feed bin today," so I think their games with us are also in the moment and not meant as misbehavior. If they really are playing a game with another horse and the other horse bites at them, they're probably going to think it's all still a game, rather than "that horse reprimanded me so I know this behavior is bad and I won't do it anymore." So why would they think if they were playing a game, that if we reprimanded them for it they should stop and never do it again?
Anyway, those are just some thoughts I have about game playing and spooking.


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## Rainaisabelle

Something that really made me think about my riding is that a horse does what it's allowed. 

If the horse was spooking because it was bored it's because you weren't paying attention enough to stop it before it became a continual thing. 

I'm not trying to be harsh because as a beginner of course you won't instantly recognise when a horse is acting bored or just in general being scared but I think one of the most important things I learned when I began riding my TB was what I said above, a horse does what it's allowed. Not in a forceful way either but you wouldn't let a horse get away with kicking at you would you?


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## Cammey

tinyliny said:


> if you feel she is thinking about spooking, and you can feel this through her body, it's not punishing her to get firm and insist she continue as directed.
> it's just redirecting her . she is probably not sure about things, and in the abcence of clear direction from you, she allows her energy to get her into a jumpy state. you chose a good time to step in and give her somethig else to focus on. growling at her, and booting her is just being firm.
> how else could you be more important in her mind then her growing concern with some silly thing she is using to focus a spook on?
> 
> 
> sometimes with high strung horses, letting them trot out a bit at first can help slow them. for others, a walk is a better settling gait. you just have to be there riding the hrose to know which is best.


Fair point - and perhaps I'm being too much of a wet noodle in being firm with her and the lack of leadership is contributing to her nervousness. Kicking her when she's scared seems weird to me, but I do understand how there can be logic to it. When she's energetic she can get so sensitive to cues that I worry a little harshness with her is going to cause her to overreact. But it's entirely possible that me getting 'quieter' in response to her getting more sensitive is causing her to try to 'listen harder' and is thus making her be more sensitive... I hadn't thought about that, but it's entirely possible I'm creating a bad cycle here. She definitely does seem to want direction when she's nervous.

Her settling gait is western jog - a very slow swingy trot. I know this both because I was flat-out-told this and because I've seen it. It's not my favorite gait to do these things at because if I get a speeding-up western jog I effectively end up with a sitting trot, which is not the most comfortable or secure-feeling at my current level of skill. I'd rather do things at the walk, but for her sake I usually do this all at the jog because she seems to find it a lot easier to deal with things. 



gottatrot said:


> So I agree a horse might be bored or distracted and this might lead to spooking. But I don't think they think "now I am misbehaving." Instead, I think sometimes if a horse is in a certain mood, if we don't distract a horse enough with things that challenge them, they have more room to start thought patterns that lead to spooking. They might not notice a jump standard has an odd shadow coming off it tonight if we are trotting them briskly and they are focusing hard on turns left and right. But if they are doing something very easy and their thoughts drift, they might focus on that jump and start to notice that it looks kind of odd, and is that shadow moving...is it a shadow or a snake hiding underneath there?!? Spook.
> 
> So you getting after the horse might have been seen as a reprimand, but I don't necessarily think the horse thought "Oh yes, I'm not supposed to spook." More likely it snapped the horse's attention back onto you like if you were driving a car and losing focus and drifting toward the centerline when your passenger shouted at you. Suddenly your behavior is different, because you're focusing on the task at hand.
> 
> Maybe it is not important - it may not matter we believe the horse responds to the reprimand because it makes them focus on work, or because they are goofing off. But I've just seen some riders that got more and more frustrated because their horse was "playing games," and they kept punishing but couldn't get the horse to stop this behavior of spooking at things on certain days. If you can snap the horse out of it, great, but if that doesn't work right away I've found it is helpful to either do something very active (treating it as an excess energy problem), even getting off and lunging for a bit, or to do something very mentally challenging (treating it as a focus issue), to get the horse thinking hard.


Also a very useful perspective that is another way to interpret what I’ve seen. Your words about keeping her mentally engaged actually matches something my trainer has told me in dealing with her and which I (embarrassingly) have probably been forgetting in my attempts to go for ‘safer’ and more ‘relaxing’ sessions. Relaxing for me isn’t always relaxing for her, and while Jill has told me that lots of focus on this slower work can be ‘good for her’ that doesn’t mean that they’re easy or less likely to cause problems. 

I kind of like your interpretation in that boredom-spooking not necessarily being intentional misbehavior - and it does actually have some relevance. If it’s unintentional distraction then honestly what I did was flat-right: just enough of a sharp reminder to pull her back on task. My only failure there was in taking so long to do it. If it’s a dangerous misbehavior that requires discouragement (because let’s be honest: big dramatic spooking *is* dangerous) then something more in alignment with how you’d treat biting or kicking is more appropriate (lesson-teaching sharp). I also like the idea of at least trying the ‘sharp reminder’ _sooner_ in the hopes that it doesn’t escalate to this point. Last time this happened it was so darn sudden that honestly I didn’t get any warning - but in both cases the thing that was similar was that I was kind of ‘letting her drive’. The first time it was because she was giving me this beautiful gait and I saw no reason to change it. The second time it was because I was trying to be gentle and use minimal pressure to get her to address something I thought was upsetting her. The first time I utterly forgive myself for (it was sudden, I had no clue) but this time I really _did_ get some warning and I probably should have been more proactive in dealing with it. 

I actually even did suspect that she might be getting a little bored and that was causing some issues - which is why I went to move to center (my go-to for doing something slightly more engaging while still being pretty calm for me is doing random patterns around fences) but it was probably too little too late and not done firmly enough to really work. 

Really, just overall I think I need to entirely divest myself of the notion that doing slower work that’s safer and more relaxing feeling _for me_ is actually objectively safer or more relaxing _for her_. I’m riding her way too often at this point - it’s no longer a case of one little slow-lesson warm up which she’s going to get to go jump right after. This is a horse who often seems genuinely pleased to get out into the arena at a time where the snow on the ground is making it annoying to run around in the paddock… I probably am not actually doing her a kindness by not even letting us work on things as exciting as the energetic/tiring trots. She’s also very rider-dependent - which I adore, but which probably means I need to be there more to support her as a partner, even if that means being firm and pushing her around a bit. 

Jill says she’d rather I have the problem I do - which is being a bit too gentle - rather than being too harsh. It’s apparently easier to fix and usually less likely to cause problems. But I am seeing how either is likely a definite big problem that I need to work to address.



Rainaisabelle said:


> Something that really made me think about my riding is that a horse does what it's allowed.
> 
> If the horse was spooking because it was bored it's because you weren't paying attention enough to stop it before it became a continual thing.
> 
> I'm not trying to be harsh because as a beginner of course you won't instantly recognise when a horse is acting bored or just in general being scared but I think one of the most important things I learned when I began riding my TB was what I said above, a horse does what it's allowed. Not in a forceful way either but you wouldn't let a horse get away with kicking at you would you?


A fair point honestly. It’s just very counterintuitive for me right now to punish a scared horse… but you’re also absolutely right. I actually even did catch both ‘bored’ and ‘scared’ this time but did probably the absolute wrong thing (trying to get gentler and be more reassuring) rather than the right thing which was to be more of a confident leader-sort. 

This is definitely an area I need to work to improve on.


*General*
Thank you everyone. I really and genuinely appreciate the time you took in putting together feedback. You guys have given me a lot to think on and I think next time this comes up I'm going to try a slightly sharper (but not too sharp) correction earlier in the process and see if I can pull her back on track before she gets this worked up.


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## Rainaisabelle

Not once did I mention punishing a scared horse.. I said you wouldn't instantly recognise the difference.


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## tinyliny

I think she (the OP) thought you were saying to 'get after ' the horse if you saw or felt it was acting bored, so you would do something to not allow that behavior, and she is interpreting that as 'punishment'.


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## Rainaisabelle

Well for clarification you don't have to punish them but redirect them to something else or just push them past it.


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## greentree

We seriously need to see a video of this "behavior". What may seem like out of control, or spooky to a beginner may be nothing to "Jill". 

I do not believe horses being ridden can be bored, unless they pickup this feeling from the rider. They are HORSES. Horses stand around nibbling on hay, grass, etc., for 20-some-odd hours a day. That would be boring to them, if they were borable...not riding.


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## tinyliny

I'm chuckling with the 'if they were borable'.

they do seem to get a lot of satisfaction out of a perfectly deadly dull life.

I'm thinking how animated X gets when he sees me approaching his paddock. of course, he knows that I give treats and all he has to do is do one little 'trick' to get them. the out and out horsey joy on his face is remarkable. I think he is animated just to have the 10 minutes of interaction with something other than his hay net.


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## gottatrot

greentree said:


> I do not believe horses being ridden can be bored, unless they pickup this feeling from the rider. They are HORSES. Horses stand around nibbling on hay, grass, etc., for 20-some-odd hours a day. That would be boring to them, if they were borable...not riding.


Interesting thought...maybe bored is not the correct word. When horses eat, they actually do seem interested in it though. It's not like they sit and zone out while randomly grabbing potato chips. They seem to actually search out each blade of grass or bite of hay, and will sort through and discard different pieces and bites. Horses would probably be ideal assembly line sorters. They could focus on it with interest for hours at a time. They also seem interested in watching and thinking about changing terrain as they travel at different speeds. But if you put the horse over the same piece of arena for a half hour, that searching part of their brain doesn't seem to need to work anymore. Whatever the word for that is, it seems unnatural to the horse and they become more zoned out or dulled. After all, horses with healthy lives and minds don't do things like weave, pace or circle endlessly. That is a sign of unhealthiness.


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## greentree

gottatrot said:


> Interesting thought...maybe bored is not the correct word. When horses eat, they actually do seem interested in it though. It's not like they sit and zone out while randomly grabbing potato chips. They seem to actually search out each blade of grass or bite of hay, and will sort through and discard different pieces and bites. Horses would probably be ideal assembly line sorters. They could focus on it with interest for hours at a time. They also seem interested in watching and thinking about changing terrain as they travel at different speeds. But if you put the horse over the same piece of arena for a half hour, that searching part of their brain doesn't seem to need to work anymore. Whatever the word for that is, it seems unnatural to the horse and they become more zoned out or dulled. After all, horses with healthy lives and minds don't do things like weave, pace or circle endlessly. That is a sign of unhealthiness.


No, the searching part of the brain may not be working in the arena unless the horse is Arabian.....but unless the rider is not riding, but just sitting, allowing the horse to wander, there are many things being asked of the horse at the same time. The brain is about as fully engaged as it gets. 

How do WE know that seems unnatural to the horse?


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## gottatrot

greentree said:


> No, the searching part of the brain may not be working in the arena unless the horse is Arabian.....but unless the rider is not riding, but just sitting, allowing the horse to wander, there are many things being asked of the horse at the same time. The brain is about as fully engaged as it gets.
> 
> How do WE know that seems unnatural to the horse?


I guess I can put it in another way...for me, personally, when I spent a lot of time riding in arenas, although I tried my best to do a lot of varied work, my horses did not seem as interested as when I took them out and did various things in different settings. Perhaps you are right that the brain was engaged, because they had to change gaits and directions and go over poles and etc. But the things we did that were repetitive they did not seem to appreciate or enjoy very much, and I found them much more bright and happy feeling when we did the same things out around natural outdoor obstacles. I found them more likely to feel "zoned out" when practicing in the arena doing transitions and such than when we did the same things in a more interesting environment. So although the brain was engaged, the emotions did not seem to be engaged and the same brightness and enjoyment of the work did not seem to be there. That is what I tend to call "bored."


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## StephaniHren

tinyliny said:


> if you feel she is thinking about spooking, and you can feel this through her body, it's not punishing her to get firm and insist she continue as directed.


I agree with this. My reaction to a horse that's building up to a spook is not to get quiet and let them work it out, it's to get loud to yank their attention back onto me. My gelding is very clear about when he's getting looky, so he always gets a sharp "Focus!" and a roll of my spurs, since he typically sticks his nose up in the air whenever he's found something to get uneasy about. I drive him forward and down into the bridle, maybe start adding in some complex lateral work or figure 8's or serpentines or something like that. He should be focused on ME, because I guarantee you I can be 100x more scary than whatever he's looking at, lol.

If I get a full on spook that can't be redirected, that's different. That's when I turn him to face whatever he's having a meltdown over, sit calmly in the saddle, sometimes verbally tell him what's up ("Yep, that's a tractor."), and then, once he's gotten a good look at it, I turn him and expect him to keep on working.



greentree said:


> I do not believe horses being ridden can be bored, unless they pickup this feeling from the rider.


I definitely think horses can and do get bored, even while being ridden. I can definitely feel the moments where I'm trying to work on something and he completely checks out (particularly if we're working out by the wall in the arena, going in one big circle over and over again like you would in a class). I've got a horse that likes mental stimulation, he wants to have to really buckle down and focus on what I'm doing because he can't guess what direction we're going next. Anything too monotonous and he definitely gets bored.


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## Cammey

*@rainaisabelle; & @tinyliny* - Correct, I was thinking you were meaning more ‘get after’ her, since I _was_ attempting to redirect and keep her attention pretty constantly throughout this process. I just really wasn’t using enough force to compel compliance, which is where my mistake was. Getting her to listen to me any more then she was doing was going to require I push into actually being punitive rather than just redirecting. I actually have another post coming up in which my error here becomes more apparent. 



greentree said:


> We seriously need to see a video of this "behavior". What may seem like out of control, or spooky to a beginner may be nothing to "Jill".


My chances of getting a video of this is pretty slim honestly. It doesn’t come up often and I can’t exactly take cell phone video of myself while riding. As far as it seeming out of control to a beginner but not to Jill - I suspect you’re correct in a lot of ways here. Then again, I suspect MOST misbehavior by horses doesn’t count as much of a big deal to her (because I’ve seen her jump on very obviously misbehaving horses and chat like it’s not a big deal at all). Also by the standards of horse misbehavior we’re not talking anything particularly dramatic: mostly just refusals and in one case a splay-spook, along with a bit of pulling on the bit and rushing. 

*@greentree; & @gottatrot* - on horse boredom.

I agree with @gottatrot in that perhaps ‘bored’ is the wrong word, but at least with Dragon it’s definitely a real thing I can see build up - frustrated maybe? I will say that if you do simple repetitive things with her in the arena then after a while (usually after doing the same thing about 6-7 times) you can definitely see her wanting to find ways to do something else, and that if the exercise is more challenging/interesting (like say cavaletti pattern work) then this isn’t a problem and she seems happy to be there. Jill calls this state of not being happy doing something repeatedly ‘bored’ and I’ve gotten used to thinking of it that way. You could also call it ‘frustrated’ and probably reach about the same conclusion. 

I can play candy crush for an hour without getting ‘bored’ because I’m constantly getting small rewards (even if they’re just little happy-noises from my phone) but if you ask me to do something repetitive at work (say manually updating a bunch of configs line-by-line) which I don’t see immediate benefit for I want to put my head through a wall after 20 minutes. If I were to sort of describe the sense I get, it’s that - the evasive “can’t we do something else?” that builds up over time. 



StephaniHren said:


> I agree with this. My reaction to a horse that's building up to a spook is not to get quiet and let them work it out, it's to get loud to yank their attention back onto me. My gelding is very clear about when he's getting looky, so he always gets a sharp "Focus!" and a roll of my spurs, since he typically sticks his nose up in the air whenever he's found something to get uneasy about. I drive him forward and down into the bridle, maybe start adding in some complex lateral work or figure 8's or serpentines or something like that. He should be focused on ME, because I guarantee you I can be 100x more scary than whatever he's looking at, lol.
> 
> If I get a full on spook that can't be redirected, that's different. That's when I turn him to face whatever he's having a meltdown over, sit calmly in the saddle, sometimes verbally tell him what's up ("Yep, that's a tractor."), and then, once he's gotten a good look at it, I turn him and expect him to keep on working.


So, especially after working through the lessons since I posted this, I can say this is almost certainly the right answer in my case - not what I did, but what I should have done. I’m still working through being far too lenient in a few cases - but I suspect this would have dealt with my problems far more effectively than the route I took.


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## Cammey

*Lessons 19 & 20 - Two Very Different Days*

*Lesson 19: Disrespect*
Today was a lesson I’m very glad happened, even though it was a bit challenging.

I walked into today’s lesson with an awful lot of questions regarding the new ‘buttons’ and behaviors I was seeing in Dragon over the past three days. I was also really hoping that she would display some of the behavior from Sunday so that I could ask Jill about it in more depth. I was proud of myself for managing to push her past the ‘fake spook’, but suspected that dealing with it as gently as I did meant that I hadn’t really dealt with it in the long term, and I was a little worried it would hit the next time I was riding alone with her. 

Thankfully (?) Dragon was happy to oblige my desire to get Jill to see the behavior in a lesson. 

I got the same ‘fake spook’ - though only the refusal, not the bit of jumping - the very first time I turned down the quarter-line after warm up. I went to circle her back around, but apparently this is far too gentle to really deal with what I’m seeing. According to Jill, what I’m now seeing is has grown up into flat-out disrespect/boundary pushing behavior.

So the first part of the lesson was dealing with that. This comprised essentially of trying to push her to actually walk past the ‘spook’ item. Admittedly, I’ve seen Dragon genuinely spooked at this point, and even I could tell the difference in how she was acting. But this didn’t prevent this from being probably the most _interesting_ period of riding I’ve yet encountered. Jill ideally wanted me to force her to go forward, despite her refusals - but if I couldn’t manage that, at least force the direction of the refusal to change and then bring her back around. Unfortunately I wasn’t quite up to the task of forcing her forward (though I could at least manage pulling her around) so Jill ended up having to lead her from the ground up to the problem area the first time through (and even with that she was being a brat). Meanwhile, I was finally getting nervous enough myself (I was worried she would rear. Mind you I don’t believe this horse ever rears - but knowing that intellectually and feeling safe as she shifts her weight back are two different things). I had to keep forcing my body from taking on the dreaded ‘beginner perching’ position where my shoulders roll in and I lose my heels. I did manage to get my heels back down solidly (whew) but I had to consciously fight to keep my back straight. Eventually I just told myself today was as good a day as any to fall off a horse I suppose, and that actually helped me loosen my muscles enough that I could follow through on keeping posture (.. or at least being better). Ironically, for as nervous as I was getting, objectively speaking nothing going on was actually that difficult to ride - erratic and strange, but not actually physically difficult. Taking tight corners at speed, or that thing where she circles rapidly, are actually more challenging from a balance perspective. My concern was far more about what she _could_ do than what she actually _did_ - which was mostly just the sort of refusal you sometimes see when watching eventing in front of an obstacle, except it was about fifteen feet away from some colored fence poles I was asking her to walk next to (not even over). 

I managed to force her through on the second pass, though it took more kicking and prodding then I think I’ve ever applied before. Getting her to halt next to the ‘scary’ object wasn’t much worse then her halting can be on a bad day, and after that second pass I was able to focus on things like straightness and not changing pace. Then we basically turned the poles from the problematic jump into ground poles and went over those repeatedly until she was completely smooth. Ironically, she seemed to like them better when we were going over them and by that point was only doing the slightest bit of rushing.

After that she still continued to be a bit of a brat for the rest of the lesson - including one more round of open disobedience when asking for a simple change-of-direction through the arena, but this time this time I was able to work her through it without requiring assistance. I was a little harsher with her than I usually am because every time I gave her an inch she seemed to want to take several feet. We worked over some cavaletti to try to get energy out and I managed to get her solidly under control - but it took very active management and really trapping her between my legs and hands to keep her obedient. ‘Walk on a loose rein’ wasn’t happening. 

I also managed to replicate some of the bending/turning strangeness I had been seeing on Thursday/Saturday. Jill says she’s not even sure I’m doing anything actually wrong - though she did go over the position of my head/shoulders in the turn in aiding the horse in realizing we’re turning rather than just creating bend. After that though she says just to use the reins as a correction to turn, because it’s definitely something she should recognize I’m asking for at this point. We’re also going to simplify a little and stop working on the bend-walk-straight work for now since she’s getting hypersensitive to my leg aids to a degree that isn’t actually useful, and this is causing things like the fast circle-and-spin. Simplifying is probably a good direction to go in and making sure I’m not letting her get away with things is important right now since she is testing boundaries so hard. 

Instead of doing the traditional cool-down I got a lesson on lunging - the basic commands, as well as explanations on when/why to lunge and how to create different lunge work sequences based on what I’m trying to get out of her. There are a couple different ‘uses’ for lunging as I’m being taught. The first one is that lunging can be used for days where I can just tell in the cross-ties that she is either very nervous or wants an exciting day but I want a calmer one - in this case it’s done as an outlet for some of her energy before I ride her and to ensure she’s fully listening to me - it’s supposed to be nice for her. In this case I warm her up on a long lunge slowly working from walk->trot->canter then working on transitions between the gaits until her she seems calmer, her responses are prompt, and require nothing besides my voice to do transitions. She may be a little rough at the canter at times if she’s really wound up - but that’s really nothing to worry about too much as she lets off steam. Then I do it on the other side - making sure that we end with walk/trot transitions so she’s calm and really listening. 

The second use is for handling disrespect when riding. In general I should do my absolute best to push her past whatever the issue is - but then if I want to can be used to regain control and compliance overall in place of a cool-down. In this case I’m going for walk/trot transitions (the canter is fun for her - so no canter) and gaining compliance and obedience. Attitude is different in this case - this type of lunging is about obedience.

Lunging can also be used on its own in place of riding (though not for too long) as a form of general exercise in the same way as I’d do it before a ride - and it might be worth having me come out and do a session or two of practicing lunge work, especially on days where it’s clear just taking up she’s going to be extremely jumpy. The key with this is not to over-do it, as this can be a bit hard on her physically. And in all cases except when I’m really, really having trouble controlling her I should give her as long a lunge line as possible - especially at the canter - so as not to be too hard on her joints. 

Overall it was a very educational lesson, and to be honest… even a little fun. I definitely did get nervous, but it never pushed into upset. This is something I’m definitely going to have to learn to deal with, so I was really glad to be able to work it out with Jill there to literally hold the horse as need be.

*Lesson 20: USDF Introductory Test A*

I could tell before we even left the grooming stall that we were in for a better day today. Dragon was paying attention to me but calm - reacting but not over-reacting. She was in full-on good girl mode.

The warm-up went the same way - a nice forward walk without any power-walking or speeding up. It seemed that our issues were now totally worked out and she was on excellent behavior. I especially loved that she was both reacting to my leg nicely but not over-reacting or wiggling about as she has been. She was a tiny bit fast in some of the gaits… but that I think will always be her on the best of days, and she listened to my requests to slow down.

We spent the first half of the lesson just really reviewing the gaits in a lot of detail, working on crisp transitions, and nitpicking my form. We shortened the stirrups a touch and while it was making it significantly easier to keep my heels down it also affected my balance and I’m now leaning a touch too much forward in general - so we worked on fixing that. My rein positioning is doing much better but I still need to work on keeping my outside rein up a touch more (and honestly, using it more as my break without pulling both reins as my break in turns - though I caught myself doing this more often than Jill did). We also went over the trouble-spots from yesterday just to make sure they wouldn’t cause us any issues again - I had a little bit of a wiggle my first time through the still-laid-out colored poles that were causing us issue before, but she straightened out nicely the second two passes and we seemed good to go. 

We did the two sets of cavaletti again. I was too slow through the first time and she actually hit a pole of the second set and stumbled a little - my error. Then I picked a better pace for us the next couple times and we went through smoothly. I actually think this was a little better than my last time doing two sets in a row like this - but the improvement was fairly subtle. It also seems a little easier to post high while keeping heels down with the shortened stirrups. 

During all this we chatted quite a bit about Dragon being a pest - what she will and won’t do, my general level in comfort with dealing with her misbehavior, and subsequently even more strategies for dealing with disobedience and boundary testing - especially when I’m alone in the arena. We talked about falling off horses and what to do if it happened when I was alone due to her misbehaving (forcibly taking her to the spot from the ground, followed by lunging). We also talked a bit more about what Dragon will and will not do in terms of acting up. It’s highly, highly, highly unlikely she will ever rear (as I was afraid she might) - but she definitely will threaten and if she really gets going she may crow-hop instead. If this starts getting too crazy and I’m alone with her (or if I come off) then the lead-her-from-the-ground approach along with some very firm handling is entirely appropriate - followed by lunging. It’s better not to start a fight I’m not sure I’ll win, and we can clean it up later if need be (though I should text Jill if I’m not going to be the next person riding her so that whomever her next rider is has warning).

We also spoke more generally about horse misbehavior and boundary pushing, especially with horses that are more willful by nature - as a lot of the horses around here are. We talked about how even well behaved horses can go bad with over-gentle handling and failure to set rules. We also briefly introduced the concepts around riding different sorts of horse misbehavior - mostly in a theoretical ‘this is how this is complicated’ sense and not in the sense of anything I should consider actually attempting at this point in time.

Finally, Jill had me do a called out version of the USDF Introductory Test A. I actually had minor mistake in that I asked for a gait transition too soon, which I then turned into a more serious mistake when I asked her to switch back to the correct gait very shortly thereafter - thus confusing the heck out of her and unintentionally ‘punishing’ her for what was my mistake. We stopped the test, spent a few laps around the arena relaxing, and re-started. 

There were also a couple jumps in the way of doing my perfect 20-meter circles. In our home arena the quarter line and 20-meter circles at the ends of the arena are always kept jump-free for just this reason - but in this pure HJ barn I had to make the inside corners of my circle fairly square to avoid running into anything. This bothered me probably far more than it should have.

Overall, it was a nice exercise. I was especially pleased I managed to get a square halt without walking off for the salute. I feel this pretty much confirms what I’ve suspected and that Jill is looking to get me started in Dressage - at least to give me a first thing to work on.


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## tinyliny

you have a remarkable ability to assimilate a ton of information at the same time. it's true, inevitably so, that over time you'll change and learn, and look back at this and maybe laugh. but don't be hard on yourself. I think few learners have been as receptive and observant as you have been.


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## SorrelHorse

Might I suggest putting your phone on a mounting block, or barrel, or step, of some kind for video? I do it all the time. Would LOVE to see some of this incredible ability you have, sounds like you are having quite the forward journey.

Example.


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## StephaniHren

SorrelHorse said:


> Might I suggest putting your phone on a mounting block, or barrel, or step, of some kind for video?


This is how most of us partner-less riders do it. I've got a cheap refurbished camcorder with a good battery life that I got off of Amazon that I take with me to the stables every now and then. I set it up on top of a barrel, hit record, and then go about my ride (with a little extra riding closer to the camera so that I get some good footage, since the arena is huge and I look like a tiny speck if I'm all the way on the other side). I edit out any parts where I'm out of frame later on.

Even if you don't end up posting footage on this thread, I really do recommend taking some videos. I used to have videos from back during my childhood riding days. They've since been lost (hard drive failure—everything's backed up via Dropbox now), and I would pretty much give my right leg to have them back.


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## Tihannah

I'm sorry. I just need you to clarify a few things because I'm really confused. You said this was primarily a H/J barn and Dragon is an "A" circuit jumper?

I'm confused at the direction of your lessons because they seem to be all over the place as far as disciplines, yet you don't seem to be having any issue picking up on any of it. But... it's common knowledge that H/J and Dressage are COMPLETELY different ways of riding. Different not only for the rider, but for the horse as well. It's also very uncommon for HJ trainer to be going a dressage route with a student. In my time in the horse world, having been at both types of barns, neither discipline is a fan of the other, because the way of going is so vastly different. We recently had a 20 yr old WB gelding hunter jumper moved to our barn and my trainer has to ride him when his owner goes outta town. He is half brother to her 3rd Level dressage mare. Mind you, he cleaned house in his day showing HJ. She hates the way he rides. She says he's strung out and on the forehand, and at his age, there's no point in trying to teach him to carry himself in a completely different way.

So Dragon would have to be a super talented to horse to be one that does well in the HJ circuit, yet comes back to lessons and be able to collect and do an extended trot. And then to top it all off, western jog, which is yet another discipline and way of going altogether.

I typically ride 5 days a week and lesson weekly on my own horse. I also clinic with a Grand Prix clinician who comes down 4 times a year and does 2-3 day clinics with us. I've been told by my trainer, the clinician, and experienced riders that I've made amazing progress in little over a year. And I know I'm not alone here when I say it takes time to train your body to adjust to riding and understanding the feel and cues and aids.


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## Foxhunter

As someone who spent many years teaching riding I have had four or five pupils that were just naturals. One was a boyfriend who looked as if he had ridden all his life yet had only been riding a few months when he was competing show jumping tomamgood standard. 

Another was a young French boy, Eric, never touched a horse let alone ride one. He was on a student exchange holiday. He was meant to attend school in the mornings but he would borrow his hosts bike and cycle to the stables. He was tiny, he was totally fearless and at the end of two weeks was not only cantering he could also canter along a field standing on the pony's quarters. 

It happens, some are just naturals which can make others very jealous.


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## Tazzie

There are definitely people who are just naturals at it, which I'm highly jealous of those kinds.

What makes me just a bit confused is a few things. The big one that made me wonder, and perhaps it was just a mistype?, is this particular bit. In one post you said someone else was leasing Dragon. But then later you said you were the only one potentially leasing at the barn? Did something change? This confused me.



Cammey said:


> But really, the most exciting news was at the end of the lesson: *Dragon might be available for a quarter lease!* Jill mentioned that she doesn’t typically lease out to beginners at my level, but she has appreciated my attention to detail and the rate at which I’m progressing, so (with some caveats and discussion) she’s open to it
> 
> As I mentioned it almost seems like there’s an experience chain amongst the students, and me getting to lease Dragon is dependent on the person above me (who recently won blue riding Dragon in her latest H/J comp) feeling ready to try out one of the greener horses (Cricket - who’s apparently a polite dream to ride, won 4th in the same H/J comp with a different rider while only being about a month off-the-track, but is still overall very inexperienced) and split her half-lease between the two.





Cammey said:


> (though I am one of only a handful of students not yet jumping even in lessons, and possibly the only one who leases)
> 
> I’ve even thought some things like offering to buy someone else a quarter-lease if they’d ride at the same times I do, just so I don’t have to be alone. That’s quite insanely expensive though, and at that point it’s tempting just to apply that money to more lessons.


I will say I'm shocked over a nearly perfect Intro A test (and chuckled at the use of the full name; I've only ever seen USDF Introductory Test A written in show bills and on the tests, never written out when stating tests). To this day I've never ridden a perfect test on my first run through, and even then I'm such a perfectionist that I have yet to ride a perfect test ever :lol: some felt GREAT, but never perfect.

It is a bit strange to mix so many different disciplines, which is what baffled me from the start. I've never known a use for the Western Jog in anything other than Western Pleasure and perhaps Western Trail? Never mixed with H/J and Dressage, and definitely not for a horse that showed Prelim. Would you mind asking Jill what the purpose of teaching this would be? I just can't wrap my head around it's use ever in any discipline. And does she have something against just coaching in one discipline? Obviously developing a good seat is crucial before learning how to jump, but you wouldn't be working on collecting and lengthening necessarily. And not before learning to canter.

I will say I am vastly curious about the Western Jog, and would love to know what the theory behind teaching that would be.


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## TaMMa89

*MODERATOR'S NOTE*

Few messages have been removed from this thread since them questioned, pretty hard way, the OP and her experiences. 

However, I think it's time to clarify our rules a bit:

Please note that in the Journals section the thread opening posters are stars of their very own journals and that's why we ask people to notice this while posting comments on these threads. That's why content, which maybe puts the OP in an unpleasant spot or makes him feel uncomfortable, will be subjected to editing/removal. In other parts of the forum you are welcome to question, give constructive feedback, share opposing views and even debate (if it's appropriate considering the topic).

The Moderating Team hopes that you manage to spot the difference between these different sections and therefore follow the rules. Despite of the section, if you feel that there's something that the Moderating Team should know, please report it to the Team instead of addressing the issue publicly on the thread.

-The Moderating Team


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## jaydee

Apologies to the owner of this Journal, Cammey, in hindsight we realise that it should have been closed when she told us that she no longer wished to participate in it.
That was our error and we will own it.
Out of respect for her any posts made on it after the date she advised us that she no longer wanted to participate in it have been removed. That action does not reflect the content of those posts and we apologise to those members that took the time to make them.
This Journal is remains closed to further comments.
If at any time Cammey wishes to re-open it then that will be done and if she would like any of the removed posts to be returned to the Journal that can also be done


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