# Tom Thumb bit.........



## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

TTs can send very mixed messages to your horse even in the best and lightest hands..If your heavy handed and are all over the place you're seriously going to cause some damage..I've heard everything from they are hasrh, light, pinch, not enough, too much..the works..it's really a personal preference but I don't like them, many people don't like them, and won't use them. If you're in your horses mouth too much, sending mixed signals, and asking for forward motion the only place your horse can go to get relief from that pressure if up..and no one likes or wants their horse to rear and possibly flip.


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

It's not harsh. It just doesn't communicate as well as a short-shanked, solid mouthpiece curb. It's kinda wimpy. I prefer the Pelham and the Weymouth for English over the Tom-Thumb, and there are many Western curbs that are a better bit.
You see, the Tom Thumb is a recently invented bit. Before it came along you either rode with a snaffle, which presses on the bars of the mouth, or a curb which could put pressure on the roof of the mouth, but ALWAYS acted like a fulcrum putting pressure upwards on the chin, with the expectation that your horse will slow down or stop bc he'll tuck his head towards his chest in response to the pressure. For finesse people rode with a "bit and bradoon", which is 2 bits (snaffle and curb), 4 reins, the curb used for flexion and the snaffle used bending. If you used a spade (Western severely high port curb bit) you rode with a slack rein and used fingerpressure to slow and stop, or else you could ruin the horse's mouth.
I guess if your horse is finished and you ride with a slack rein, it's fine to use it. I just won't buy one. =D


----------



## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

Thank you drumrunner, can you suggest a more reliable bit that i can teach pole flexion with? we are very soft, and moving forward well in a d ring, but i feel that we are ready to move up to the next bit..........


----------



## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

You're welcome..That depends on what you are doing with your horse..That can go in many different directions when deciding what bit to move up to,


----------



## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

Corporal said:


> It's not harsh. It just doesn't communicate as well as a short-shanked, solid mouthpiece curb. It's kinda wimpy. I prefer the Pelham and the Weymouth for English over the Tom-Thumb, and there are many Western curbs that are a better bit.
> You see, the Tom Thumb is a recently invented bit. Before it came along you either rode with a snaffle, which presses on the bars of the mouth, or a curb which could put pressure on the roof of the mouth, but ALWAYS acted like a fulcrum putting pressure upwards on the chin, with the expectation that your horse will slow down or stop bc he'll tuck his head towards his chest in response to the pressure. For finesse people rode with a "bit and bradoon", which is 2 bits (snaffle and curb), 4 reins, the curb used for flexion and the snaffle used bending. If you used a spade (Western severely high port curb bit) you rode with a slack rein and used fingerpressure to slow and stop, or else you could ruin the horse's mouth.
> I guess if your horse is finished and you ride with a slack rein, it's fine to use it. I just won't buy one. =D


How interesting. I always thought a curb was more harsh........ thank you, i do ride with a light hand, but my horse is FAR from finished......


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

A horse can grab the snaffle or the curb and run away with you just as easily. It is ALL in the training. Just as an aside, I used a rubber-mouthed Pelham to fix my 5yo QH's head tossing that he was doing with an eggbutt snaffle. You're not supposed to switch from a snaffle to a curb, than back to a (in this case, a full-check) snaffle, but _this_ horse was at a rescue and many uneducated hands rode him before I adopted him 2 years ago. *I fixed the problem without punishing the horse.*
Now, I won't need to train him to a curb, but I will trust his "brakes" bc he slows and stops well with the snaffle. You REALLY trust your horse if you can ride with a halter and a lead. I never tried it until I had so many hours in on my QH "Ro Go Bar" (1982-1009, RIP) that I could cheat periodically with him, like riding back to the trailer at an event and I didn't want to bother bridling him.


----------



## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

^^ this a agree with, to a point.... the bit isn't so much as a 'control' thing, it doesn't matter how much or how little bit you have if your horse isn't mentally acceptable and 'liking' it...Riding with the halter and lead, if your horse is REALLY trained and "finished" they should know without the bit what you are asking for. From leg pressues, seat and body position and pressures and signals on their face..I can ride all three of my finished barrel horses in a halter and lead while bare back, they know the deal and routine..I won't ride in a halter and lead everytime but I like to be able to know my horses respond to ME and my direction and not just the bit..


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

He *was* a finished horse. I had put about 4,000 hours under saddle, when he was a 12yo, before I tried this. I was just mentioned it as a meter, NOT suggesting you test your horse. HOWEVER, my friend sold her 3yo Belgian filly last year, that she and her daughter broke, without being trained as trainers, in their back yard, and they often rode HER without a bridle. She had bought the mare--you know the story, "didn't know she was pregnant"--and raised the filly, handled her all of the time and spent oodles of time with her.
It ALL comes down to quality time and trust, doesn't it?


----------



## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

I'm not sure why you're being defensive..I wasn't point any barbs at you. Just having a conversation and pointing out my opinion on it..I never said your horse wasn't finished or anything like you just posted above...Don't put the cart in front of the horse and jump to conclusions...That's how so many people on the forum get their feelings hurt, for no reason and misunderstandings.

I also used my barrel horses as an example because soo many people see barrel horses as a hot mess..it's not true for every horse..There are a good bit of hot mess barrel horses out there but it's all about who trains and rides those horses..


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I didn't feel criticised, DrumRunner, _just wan't to clarify._ =D 
Boy, no matter WHAT the discipline, we all see bad practice. **sigh**


----------



## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

You got that right.


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

jbolt said:


> Hi, I've always used a tom thumb when I move up from a D ring snaffle. Is this bit harsher than it seems? Iv'e heard lately that the tom thumb is frowned upon.....can anyone enlighten me?


Ugh....Tom Thumbs are the poorest designed bit architecturally and mechanically (I seem to repeat myself with this when it comes to Tom Thumbs.) When you add shanks to a single jointed mouthpiece, it becomes a WHOLE DIFFERENT ball of wax. With a Tom Thumb you have a straight shank which is even worse! There is no "play" time between contact and the action of the bit...it is immediate. 

Get a shorter shank low port with a barrel; I tried to cut and paste a pic from Schnieders but was unsuccessful.


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

GotaDunQH said:


> Get a shorter shank low port with a barrel; I tried to cut and paste a pic from Schnieders but was unsuccessful.


Such as a junior cow horse?


----------



## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

I think you've probably got enough information on the TT so I'll just suggest a bit. 

I got this curb bit for my mare on the recommendation of a member here and I've found it to be wonderful.

The mouthpiece is solid so there aren't any confusing signals, the shanks are loose so -if she decides to "forget" how to neckrein- I can briefly direct rein without confusing her, and the shanks are pretty short and swept back so there's lots of "warning room" before the bit is engaged. It also makes a pretty good snaffle if you attach reins to the holes next to the mouthpiece (I do that sometimes if my mare is being especially goosey about "remembering" how to neck rein, I attach reins to both holes and go for it).

The one thing that can be disconcerting is that that bit rusts fast. Since it's sweet iron it's supposed to rust so there's nothing to worry about. You do want to make sure the rust is never sharp (and if it is, smooth it down with steel wool) but the rust itself is actually a good thing.


----------



## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

I personally LOVE the Jr Cowhorse bit..I have a twisted mouth piece and two of my barrel horses love it.


----------



## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

When you say "move up" what are you meaning? More severe, less severe? What discipline do you ride? Flexion can be taught with a snaffle. I always ride in a snaffle. Except when I go in the show ring for WP, then I use the curb.


----------



## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

All of the western horses I have ridden usually went well in a TT. I got my new guy (who is green) and its a whole different ball park for the horse. My guy goes well in a plain ol' rubber D ring snaffle. If you can find any way around using the TT then I'd definitely opt for something better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

mls said:


> Such as a junior cow horse?


This is the bit...now that I am home and can post it from my hard drive:


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Cowgirls Boots said:


> All of the western horses I have ridden usually went well in a TT. I got my new guy (who is green) and its a whole different ball park for the horse. My guy goes well in a plain ol' rubber D ring snaffle.* If you can find any way around using the TT then I'd definitely opt for something better.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is ALWAYS a way around using a TT. Just don't use it. Those bits should be gathered up, put on a boat, and sent to a deserted island never to return.


----------



## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

GotaDunQH, would you suggest just using that for disciplines such as Western Pleasure..or even Reining? I don't think I would use it on a more high performance western discipline horse like a barrel horse...and I am by NO means bashing or saying WP aren't performance horses. They are, just in their own way.


----------



## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

GotaDunQH said:


> There is ALWAYS a way around using a TT. Just don't use it. Those bits should be gathered up, put on a boat, and sent to a deserted island never to return.



I agree. I saw no problem with them up until my new guy showed me why I shouldn't use it. And this bit is NOT a snaffle. Don't think that it is!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

GotaDunQH said:


> There is ALWAYS a way around using a TT. Just don't use it. Those bits should be gathered up, put on a boat, and sent to a deserted island never to return.


Here we go again! And again and again!

I still don't know why the tom thumb is the most hated bit around. Sure, there is some article on the internet somewhere that people always post a link to. But until I got my Fox Trotter, EVERY horse I have ever ridden did better in a tom thumb (or argentine snaffle, jointed curb, whatever you want to call it) than any other bit. I have a whole collection of them. I would much prefer that to a plan snaffle, which encourages the horse's head to come up to evade the bit. 

How would you like it if I said "all snaffles should be rounded up and sent off never to return" or "all twisted wire bits should be sent off" or "all hackamores should be sent off........." Sounds pretty dumb, right?

Sure, I don't mind if folks argue that it isn't the best bit for XYZ reasons, but some of you guys hate it with a passion. Why doesn't anyone hate *this *with a passion?

http://www.horseforum.com/attachments/30658d1272775393-mule-bit-rant-31743_a.jpg

or this: http://www.horseforum.com/attachments/11524d1251158769-little-lesson-walking-horse-bits-badddd.jpg

or this:
http://www.horseforum.com/attachmen...uthpieces-kelly-silver-star-fine-wire-snaffle

Nope, everyone hands down, says this is the cruelest bit around! It's silly honestly. :lol:

http://www.horseforum.com/attachments/9613d1248176762-*good-tom-thumb-articles*-tomthumbbit.jpg


----------



## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

My barrel mare Lark was trained and ridden in this..I will *NOT* ever put it back into her mouth and have been working for months to soften that poor girl's mouth...I *DO* hate it with a passion.

Really, if you want to say that one bit is bad and another and another..actually ANY bit can be awful in the wrong hands and the wrong rider. I don't care what bit you choose..any can be used wrong and the horse suffer from it...













My mare Nikki runs in this









Lark and Hickory run in this -









Would I put one of those on a green horse? No. Would I let a heavy handed person use those? No... But I know my horses and what works best for them.


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

DrumRunner said:


> GotaDunQH, would you suggest just using that for disciplines such as Western Pleasure..or even Reining? I don't think I would use it on a more high performance western discipline horse like a barrel horse...and I am by NO means bashing or saying WP aren't performance horses. They are, just in their own way.


 
Yea, I would use it as an introduction to a shanked port bit when stepping up from a snafle....for WP, everyday western riding, reining....even barrels if you run in a shanked bit. But timed event is an art unto it's own, where you do need some control and run with more contact at points. So I would not consider it a timed event bit. But there's no reason you can't do some slow on-the-rail work with a timed event horse in this bit or go out on the trail with it. 

Some horses can stay in a bit like this, some progress even further up the "food chain" of bits. I sometimes use a bit like this on my seasoned horse when I am schooling horsemanship, because more contact is needed with horsemanship. Then when I school my horse WP, I go with a bigger port with longer shanks and less contact. It's just a nice bit to have in your tool box. I have NO single jointed shanked western bits in my tool box.


----------



## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

GotaDunQH said:


> Yea, I would use it as an introduction to a shanked port bit when stepping up from a snafle....for WP, everyday western riding, reining....even barrels if you run in a shanked bit. But timed event is an art unto it's own, where you do need some control and run with more contact at points. So I would not consider it a timed event bit. But there's no reason you can't do some slow on-the-rail work with a timed event horse in this bit or go out on the trail with it.
> 
> Some horses can stay in a bit like this, some progress even further up the "food chain" of bits. I sometimes use a bit like this on my seasoned horse when I am schooling horsemanship, because more contact is needed with horsemanship. Then when I school my horse WP, I go with a bigger port with longer shanks and less contact. It's just a nice bit to have in your tool box. I have NO single jointed shanked western bits in my tool box.



Yeah, that's what I thought by the looks of it..It's a nice bit, I've just never tried one and couldn't see really using it running..


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> Here we go again! And again and again!
> 
> I still don't know why the tom thumb is the most hated bit around. Sure, there is some article on the internet somewhere that people always post a link to. But until I got my Fox Trotter, EVERY horse I have ever ridden did better in a tom thumb (or argentine snaffle, jointed curb, whatever you want to call it) than any other bit. I have a whole collection of them. I would much prefer that to a plan snaffle, which encourages the horse's head to come up to evade the bit.
> 
> ...


Do some research and you'll see why. And it's not silly if you know about the actual *structure and mechanics of a bit* and the way a horse's mouth is conformed. I'm not talking AT ALL about the hands holding the reins...I am speaking from a scientific/architectural aspect. Mark Rashid wrote an EXCELLENT article on how cra*ppy these bits are. If you google it, you will find it. 

And no, it is not dumb....and you have an axe to grind with me anyone for some reason, so I'm not even going to comment on that. What IS dumb is not looking AT A BIT FROM THE ACTUAL DESIGN standpoint...EVEN before it is put in a horse's mouth and hands are at the ends of the reins. The makers of TT's have done some really sly marketing to make people UNKNOWLEDGEABLE in bits....believe it's a good bit, merely because it has a jointed mouthpiece. Anyone who TRULY knows bits, knows these are a piece of do-do.

ETA: It's no skin of my nose if you want to use a TT on your horse, your horse your way. But I would NEVER EVER use on my horse, and the consensus of people that know a thing or two...will tell you the same.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

DrumRunner said:


> Lark and Hickory run in this -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_But I know my horses and what works best for them._

Same here! That's why I hate it when people lump all types of a certain bit as evil or useless. Actually, I would never use many, many of the bits out there. Most of them have harsh mouth pieces or wayyyy too much leverage. When looking around at the tack shop, there are very few bits I would consider buying. It's kind of a drag! Like, wow, I would love to find a new bit, but all of these are too harsh for my horses. They just don't need all that leverage or a thin mouthpiece, etc. 

I just don't know why folks hate on this one bit in particular, to the exclusion of all others. It's kind of illogical.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

GotaDunQH said:


> This is the bit...now that I am home and can post it from my hard drive:


what is the name of that bit? And why the odd shape to the shanks? I cannot see why this would make any difference as compared with a simple curve, or even a straight line, angled the same .


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

DrumRunner said:


> Yeah, that's what I thought by the looks of it..It's a nice bit, I've just never tried one and couldn't see really using it running..


Yep, like I said...timed event horses have bits all of their own and they work for what they do. Timed event has it's own set of bits, that are like no other...but they work for the job at hand.


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> _But I know my horses and what works best for them._
> 
> Same here! That's why I hate it when people lump all types of a certain bit as evil or useless. Actually, I would never use many, many of the bits out there. Most of them have harsh mouth pieces or wayyyy too much leverage. When looking around at the tack shop, there are very few bits I would consider buying. It's kind of a drag! Like, wow, I would love to find a new bit, but all of these are too harsh for my horses. They just don't need all that leverage or a thin mouthpiece, etc.
> 
> *I just don't know why folks hate on this one bit in particular, to the exclusion of all others. It's kind of illogical*.


OMG, do the research and be enlightened!!! Look at Mark Rashid's article...it will your eyes.


----------



## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> _But I know my horses and what works best for them._
> 
> Same here! That's why I hate it when people lump all types of a certain bit as evil or useless. Actually, I would never use many, many of the bits out there. Most of them have harsh mouth pieces or wayyyy too much leverage. When looking around at the tack shop, there are very few bits I would consider buying. It's kind of a drag! Like, wow, I would love to find a new bit, but all of these are too harsh for my horses. They just don't need all that leverage or a thin mouthpiece, etc.
> 
> I just don't know why folks hate on this one bit in particular, to the exclusion of all others. It's kind of illogical.


The Jr Cowhorse is may look similar to a TT but it's NOT in any way similar when using it...Actually look into facts about the bits before trying to come back and argue with someone.


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> what is the name of that bit? And why the odd shape to the shanks? I cannot see why this would make any difference as compared with a simple curve, or even a straight line, angled the same .


It's just a different version of a swept back shank and has the same action as the same. The curve is for a horse that likes to "lip" a bit. I don't have a horse that does that, but I love this bit anyone. Not sure the name of it....


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

GotaDunQH said:


> Do some research and you'll see why. And it's not silly if you know about the actual *structure and mechanics of a bit* and the way a horse's mouth is conformed. I'm not talking AT ALL about the hands holding the reins...I am speaking from a scientific/architectural aspect. Mark Rashid wrote an EXCELLENT article on how cra*ppy these bits are. If you google it, you will find it.
> 
> And no, it is not dumb....and you have an axe to grind with me anyone for some reason, so I'm not even going to comment on that. What IS dumb is not looking AT A BIT FROM THE ACTUAL DESIGN standpoint...EVEN before it is put in a horse's mouth and hands are at the ends of the reins. The makers of TT's have done some really sly marketing to make people UNKNOWLEDGEABLE in bits....believe it's a good bit, merely because it has a jointed mouthpiece. Anyone who TRULY knows bits, knows these are a piece of do-do.


I have nothing against you personally. I don't happen to like western pleasure so I think we clashed on a past thread about that. I just don't see how when there are so many bad bits in the world, this one gets singled out. On the whole scale of evil bits, this one is much less evil. Actually, and maybe it's because I ride on a loose rein, my horses do great in them. So I feel like I need to defend quite a decent bit when others are always knocking it. Because otherwise newbies will come along and think they are evil because of what a few people say. I feel I need to counter-balance that.


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

DrumRunner said:


> The Jr Cowhorse is may look similar to a TT but it's NOT in any way similar when using it...Actually look into facts about the bits before trying to come back and argue with someone.


Exactly! The Jr Cowhorse bit is nowhere near the TT in it's design, it's mechanics, and it's action in a horse's mouth. The Jr Cowhorse is widely respected and used.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

DrumRunner said:


> The Jr Cowhorse is may look similar to a TT but it's NOT in any way similar when using it...Actually look into facts about the bits before trying to come back and argue with someone.


Actually, you're right. It's harsher. I don't own a single twisted wire bit. I did own one years ago and sold it. My horses don't need anything with that much bite.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

GotaDunQH said:


> OMG, do the research and be enlightened!!! Look at Mark Rashid's article...it will your eyes.


I've read it a couple of times.


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> I have nothing against you personally. I don't happen to like western pleasure so I think we clashed on a past thread about that. I just don't see how when there are so many bad bits in the world, this one gets singled out. On the whole scale of evil bits, this one is much less evil. Actually, and maybe it's because I ride on a loose rein, my horses do great in them. So I feel like I need to defend quite a decent bit when others are always knocking it. Because otherwise newbies will come along and think they are evil because of what a few people say. I feel I need to counter-balance that.


But I do other things besides WP! I do plain old riding with my horses, and I would never use a TT! If you want a well trained horse that uses it's body correctly NO MATTER WHAT the discipline....you won't get it with a TT and you will do your horse such a disservice by putting that bit in it's mouth, without even using your reins!


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> I have nothing against you personally. I don't happen to like western pleasure so I think we clashed on a past thread about that. I just don't see how when there are so many bad bits in the world, this one gets singled out. On the whole scale of evil bits, this one is much less evil. Actually, and maybe it's because I ride on a loose rein, my horses do great in them. So I feel like I need to defend quite a decent bit when others are always knocking it. *Because otherwise newbies will come along and think they are evil because of what a few people say. I feel I need to counter-balance that*.


A newbie in a TT? Geez....what do newbies to but take up contact and hang on a horse's face? They have not learned hand finesse AT ALL or what hands are REALLY for. Sorry, you and I (and others on here) will never agree on the TT. But that's ok....


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

GotaDunQH said:


> Exactly! The Jr Cowhorse bit is nowhere near the TT in it's design, it's mechanics, and it's action in a horse's mouth. The Jr Cowhorse is widely respected and used.


So maybe the difference is in what we call a tom thumb. 

This is evil:

http://www.horseforum.com/attachments/9613d1248176762-*good-tom-thumb-articles*-tomthumbbit.jpg

This is a quality bit with a good reputation:

http://images.rods.com/RS/SR/Product/214341_L.jpg

Are they not both basically straight shanked and have a single jointed mouthpiece? So that little bit of gag action is what make sit so much milder? 

What about this, is this evil or golden?

http://www.discountwesternwear.com/images/Products/Reinsman Bits/390_402.jpg

or this:

http://www.onestopequineshop.com/assets/images/218008.jpg

Are all we are talking about is nuances in the shape of the shank? Because I lump them all in the "tom thumb" catergory. Maybe I should just start calling them all argentine snaffles. Because apparently they don't have a bad reputation. 

Now I can sort of see the argument that another joint in the center is better for the horse because it has less nutcracker action. But that also goes for a ring snaffle and a jr cowhorse as well. But that's not what you guys are saying. You are saying something about the tom thumb wayyy different than this: http://images.rods.com/RS/SR/Product/214341_L.jpg

Other than gag action, I don't see what makes one evil and one kosher.


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

The first bit is a TT, the others are not. A TT has a straight shank (absolutely STRAIGHT with no deviation from end to end) and looks EXACTLY like the first bit. The others are different in many ways.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

GotaDunQH said:


> A newbie in a TT? Geez....what do newbies to but take up contact and hang on a horse's face? They have not learned hand finesse AT ALL or what hands are REALLY for. Sorry, you and I (and others on here) will never agree on the TT. But that's ok....


I started out western, neck reining, with basically no contact. I think that was a good way to start. YEARS went by before I learned about contact and started riding two-handed. So by that time I had my balance. But that seems backwards from the way most people start out. I agree that there is a definite problem with newbies hanging on the bit. Maybe newbies should start out western and neck reining. 

And we can agree to disagree. Maybe I am dense, but to me the difference between a tom thumb, an argentine snaffle, and a jr. cowhorse is just a few nuances. I think they basically function the same.

Oh, and until you mentioned the straight shanks, I had forgotten about he pelham. Is a pelham a tom thumb? The shanks are very straight. Or does the ring the bottom rein attaches to give it more of a argentine snaffle effect? 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Pelham_bit.jpg/220px-Pelham_bit.jpg

So basically, any curb with a broken mouth piece needs a slight sweep to the shanks to be kosher? That's all we are arguing about?


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I got to tell you something slightly off-topic but I found it amusing. I went riding with a friend the other day. We trailered out and I forgot one very important thing- my bridle!

So I ask my friend if she happens to have a spare bridle. She has two to choose from. A correction bit with a fair amount of leverage, and a tom thumb with no curb strap. What a choice! Well, I had never ridden my mare in a correction bit, although I owned one briefly with another horse and he hated it. 

Then there is this tom thumb with no curb strap. And what's more, the mouthpiece is upside down and it can't be changed easily because of the way the bridle is put together. Guess what I chose? The upside down tom thumb with no curb strap! Not ideal by a long shot, but I figure it's milder than the correction bit. And this is my horse that prefers a solid curb bit.

So I rode it in and she did surprisingly great! Who would have thought? Never in a million years would it have been something I picked to ride in, but it ended up working out great. :lol:


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> I got to tell you something slightly off-topic but I found it amusing. I went riding with a friend the other day. We trailered out and I forgot one very important thing- my bridle!
> 
> So I ask my friend if she happens to have a spare bridle. She has two to choose from. A correction bit with a fair amount of leverage, and a tom thumb with no curb strap. What a choice! Well, I had never ridden my mare in a correction bit, although I owned one briefly with another horse and he hated it.
> 
> ...


She had the bit on upside down and no curb strap? LOL...yikes! Did you tell her it was upside down? You obviously have a very forgiving horse to ride in a bridle put together than way (and that was a compliment.) Shanked bits NEED a curb strap...or just use a snaffle bit. Anyway....correction bits are much milder than you think, but your horse needs to get used to one...because they offer tongue release/relief where a single jointed mouth does not. I don't mind a solid port mouth, as long as the shanks swivel and curve back.


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> I started out western, neck reining, with basically no contact. I think that was a good way to start. YEARS went by before I learned about contact and started riding two-handed. So by that time I had my balance. But that seems backwards from the way most people start out. I agree that there is a definite problem with newbies hanging on the bit. Maybe newbies should start out western and neck reining.
> 
> And we can agree to disagree. Maybe I am dense, but to me the difference between a tom thumb, an argentine snaffle, and a jr. cowhorse is just a few nuances. I think they basically function the same.
> 
> ...


Basically...yes. I straight shank has NO forgiveness, the bit is always at play. And the slightest hand movement, that su*cker cranks in the horses mouth. Even riding a horse on a loose rein, whether it be on the trail or in the show pen...some rein contact wuill be required. So if it you have a bit that is ALWAYS at play even if you have no contact, just imagine when you take up contact. Now, snaffle bits are the exception, because they are MADE for continual contact as there is no leverage and "pulling down" effect with them, and no curb strap to tighten on sensitive nerves.


----------



## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

If I can interject, I can share why I very much dislike the TT. Obviously I dislike the mechanics and construction of the bit but my main reasons (that I've come across in real life, not on the internet) for hating it are as follows:

- People think it's a "snaffle" due to marketing and direct rein in it because "it's a snaffle with more brakes!!"
- People think it's the best bit for starting horses in, since it's a "snaffle". I feel this sets the horse up for failure down the road when/if any kind of finesse is wanted.
- People put this bit on horses ridden by beginners because "it's so gentle". They let these beginners pull and pull on the horse's mouth because "the TT is gentle"
- My final reason is because this bit is in common use because it's "so nice". If it were more rare, like a twisted wire bit or a mule bit (around here) is, I wouldn't care about it at all beyond disliking it.


If you want to use a TT and you neckrein in it, never direct rein, have a loose rein 90% of the time, and your horse likes this bit then you're doing it totally right and I have no bone to pick with you. 
I mean, I've ridden horses in a TT many times but they were horses that couldn't have been better at neckreining and I stayed 100% out of their mouth. For them, I don't have a problem with the TT. I still think there's probably something out there that's better on a horse-comfort level, but if the TT works well, there's not too much of a reason to change it.

My other factor (that I mentioned in my list) for being adamant against the TT is that it's in such wide circulation (and so many people are misinformed about it). If the Mule Bit was in wide circulation instead of the TT and people had the same feelings toward it that many do about the TT, you can bet that I would be as anti-Mule Bit as I am anti-TT. Or, if twisted wire anythings were around more, I would have a similar cow about them. :lol:
But, to me, the mere fact that I had a previous instructor (who was well educated in most other things) lecture me about the evils of a twisted wire snaffle I had found, then advise me in the same sentence to get a TT because "TT's are like snaffles, with more brakes!! They're the gentlest possible!" says that there's a problem with education regarding this bit.

Truthfully, I wouldn't care if TT's were super uncommon but since they seem to the "go-to" bit of most western trail riders, I think those riders should be at least properly educated about the bit they're using. If their horses truly like that bit and the riders respect the TT and stay off it, then I really have no issue. 


That all being said, I really am not a fan of broken curbs of any style. I haven't had much expierence with many broken curbs but the experience I have had was always negative. I would never advise anyone to get a broken mouthed curb. I much prefer a solid mouthpiece on curb bits.


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^ wow best post on here!!! Thanks for that post!


----------



## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Thanks GotaDunQH! 

Also, THR, I hope you don't think I was bashing you or anything. 
Personally, from what you've said about how you ride, I think you're doing just fine using a TT since it's working for you and your horses. You fit firmly into my "more power to you" category. 
You're educated about the bit you use, you respect it for what it is, and I have absolutely no bone to pick with that.


----------



## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

Corporal said:


> A horse can grab the snaffle or the curb and run away with you just as easily. It is ALL in the training. Just as an aside, I used a rubber-mouthed Pelham to fix my 5yo QH's head tossing that he was doing with an eggbutt snaffle. You're not supposed to switch from a snaffle to a curb, than back to a (in this case, a full-check) snaffle, but _this_ horse was at a rescue and many uneducated hands rode him before I adopted him 2 years ago. *I fixed the problem without punishing the horse.*
> Now, I won't need to train him to a curb, but I will trust his "brakes" bc he slows and stops well with the snaffle. You REALLY trust your horse if you can ride with a halter and a lead. I never tried it until I had so many hours in on my QH "Ro Go Bar" (1982-1009, RIP) that I could cheat periodically with him, like riding back to the trailer at an event and I didn't want to bother bridling him.


I trained my boy in a clinton anderson style training halter with 8 ft. lead for about 3 years. he side passes, backs, stops, and leg yeilds very well in just a halter and lead ( have never done it outside our comfort zone[2-3 miles of private trails, and lots of arena time], though, not that brave) I began " bridling with just a side pull, and then moved to a d-ring. we have been using the dring 3 to 4 times a week, but i am having difficulty maintaining a a vertical headset. I have never trained a horse with a curb, nor do i have much experience riding in one.............


----------



## candandy49 (Jan 16, 2011)

In my younger years I thought the TT was a great bit. That was some 40 or so years ago, I am now 62. I have since learned over the years that the TT is one of the most severe bits on the market. In the physics of the mechanics of the TT it has the most "nutcracker" effects on the bars the tongue and roof of the horse's mouth. The short, straight shanks and short purchase(measurement from mouth piece to bridle rings) and hinged ends(that cause the pinching of the corners of the horse's mouth) is what makes the bit severe.

After starting a young horse in a true loose ring snaffle bridle and making progress I have switched to a side-pull bridle with loose ring snaffle. The side-pull bridle is similiar, but not exactally like a bosal hackamore.


----------



## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

GotaDunQH said:


> There is ALWAYS a way around using a TT. Just don't use it. Those bits should be gathered up, put on a boat, and sent to a deserted island never to return.


lol, sorry just cracked me up.......


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Trailhorserider and I have clashed on this one before 

So I am going to explain the best I can about balance of a bit and how the swept back of the shanks contributes to the bit and how it balances on the bars, neutral position and engaged. I don't have a TT bit so I used some bits I own for the pics but hopefully you all will get the idea. 

I am guessing if you were to balance a TT bit on your first finger and pinky to simulate the horses bars it would hang exactly straight up and down or pretty close. If a bit is balanced in this manner than the horse has to be very flexed at the poll or collected to keep the bit in the neutral position. If he has his nose out, the weight of the shanks and the reins automatically engage the action of the bit.

The first bit below has the swept back shanks and you can see it balanced on my fingers that a horse doesn't have to collected or flexed at the poll to keep the bit neutral. The short shanks have minimal leverage and the independence of the shanks allows for direct reining.

The second bit is obviously a more advanced bit with more leverage and fixed cheeks but you can see from the balance of bit it still does not require a lot of flex or collection to keep it neutral. The port is still low and it provides tongue relief.

The third is a spade bit which is still balanced in a manner that it doesn't require a ton of collection or flex at the poll. But the angle of spoon comes into play now. But fitting a spade to a horse is a whole other subject..

The fourth bit I imagine would be balanced quite a bit like a TT I imagine. It is straight up and down in the neutral position and therfor the horse would have to have a very flexed poll or ride very up in the bit to pack it. Even though the mouthpeice doesn't look severe I would consider this bit for a very advanced horse with an excellent headset.

It is not just the mouthpeices or the size of the ports and shanks that make a bit severe, you have to take into consideration the *balance *of the bit.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Sorry trailhorserider, it wasn't you that we had a discussion about the TT in another thread, someone else!


----------



## Evansk (Dec 22, 2011)

GotaDunQH said:


> ^ wow best post on here!!! Thanks for that post!


 
Is this the bit you posted earlier? Weaver SS Jointed Swivel Cavalry Loose Cheek Bit - Horse.com 

I really liked the bit so I had to hunt it down!  

And on the TT.. I've used one before on my Perch/TB cross mare, never had a problem with it.


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Evansk said:


> Is this the bit you posted earlier? Weaver SS Jointed Swivel Cavalry Loose Cheek Bit - Horse.com
> 
> I really liked the bit so I had to hunt it down!
> 
> And on the TT.. I've used one before on my Perch/TB cross mare, never had a problem with it.


Yep..that's the bit. It's a great bit. I really like the mouthpiece on that bit and the swivel shanks. You can also get it at www.sstack.com. That same mouthpiece comes in different shape shanks....like a swept back grazing shank.


----------



## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I own a TT. Two guys I day work for ride their horses in them. They are nice horses. Other than that, I don't use it. 

CC77 - Good photos to show balance in relation to head set. I don't think it gets enough consideration in general.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

boots said:


> I own a TT. Two guys I day work for ride their horses in them. They are nice horses. Other than that, I don't use it.
> 
> CC77 - Good photos to show balance in relation to head set. I don't think it gets enough consideration in general.



Thanks boots!


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I have tried a TT and, while my horse didn't have a problem with it (I can ride him in just about anything), I hated the _lack_ of feel that it had. There was no subtlety with it, no nuances to my cues, it was all very blunt and rigid. I can compare it to trying to put in stitches with a sharp stick and kite string. You might get the job done if you _really_ know what you're doing, but it won't be pretty.

I greatly value the amount of feel my horses have and I expect a great deal from them. While the bits that I generally use aren't those big, expensive, custom jobs that some do, I make sure that the mechanics of my bits are suitable to the horses that I ride and the goals that I set for them.

This is strictly a personal preferance, but I thoroughly dislike bits that have shanks and a broken "snaffle" mouth, just because I don't like the feel of them. I much prefer a good ported curb, either solid or with a barrel. I like being able to pick up _one _rein to fine tune a movement without the entire bit collapsing on the horse's face.

Here are some good, inexpensive bits that are much more suitable for a horse's first experience with a curb bit than a TT could ever hope to be....
254330- Partrade Black Satin Bit

Saddles Tack Horse Supplies - ChickSaddlery.com Reiner WIde Port Swivel Shank Bit

Saddles Tack Horse Supplies - ChickSaddlery.com Kelly Copper Inlay Arch Mouth Bit 5"

239091- Partrade Cowboy Collection Short Slotted Futurity Bit

796- Reinsman 7" Steel Reiner Billy Allen Mouth

This one is really mild because the shanks are about as short as I've ever found on a curb bit.
Saddles Tack Horse Supplies - ChickSaddlery.com Francois Gauthier Antique Hinged Futurity Bit


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Saddles Tack Horse Supplies - ChickSaddlery.com Reiner WIde Port Swivel Shank Bit

I just recommended this bit to a friend.

I like it, it is similar to a John Isreal, as far as the mouthpiece is concerned, but without the price tag.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Very good posts guys!

Cowchick77, I have a question on bit balance that I always wondered about. I have done the same thing you show in your pictures (gorgeous bits by the way!), which is hold the bits in my hand to see the balance. But what I have always wondered is if once you add a headstall and reins, doesn't that change the balance? Or not? 

I have actually never tried it, but I am picturing a heavy set of reins dipping the bit forward and perpendicular. Or a bulky headstall and light reins doing the opposite. What do you think? Doesn't the balance change once the headstall and reins are added?


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

PS. Another thought. Would a bit balanced like the one in Cowchick77's last picture do anything to encourage headset? In theory? Because to find relief the horse would have to find the "correct" position? 

I'm not advocating that as something you would want to do. I'm just curious. If the tension is always on unless the horse is in the right position would a bit with that type of balance encourage a better headset? I'm picturing something like a WP horse. You would want him to always have his head in that position while in the show ring, right?


----------



## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Personally, if I'm going to use a curb bit, I prefer it have a slot so that I don't have to run the chain/strap through the purchase hole/ring which can pinch the horse (the hole/ring that the headstall attaches to - like the examples in Cowchick's photos - every single one shown uses the the same hole/ring for both headstall attachment and the curb strap)

Evansk's post has a good single rein curb bit with a curb chain/strap slot.

And in Smrob's post every bit shown/linked to, with the exception of the last one, are TWO rein bits with NONE having a separate slot for the curb chain/strap. Even though these bits are designed for 2 SETS of reins (one ring at the mouthpiece ie. "snaffle rein" and the other at the end of the shank) you almost never see 2 used.

IMHO, you cannot tell how a bit is balanced by using your fingers - the bit itself will tell you how it is balanced. Here is a very good explanation at and here Bit Leverage | Horse-Pros.com and here Curb Bit Basics | Horse-Pros.com.

If you like the TT, use it…if you don't, don't.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

trailhorserider said:


> Very good posts guys!
> 
> Cowchick77, I have a question on bit balance that I always wondered about. I have done the same thing you show in your pictures (gorgeous bits by the way!), which is hold the bits in my hand to see the balance. But what I have always wondered is if once you add a headstall and reins, doesn't that change the balance? Or not?
> 
> I have actually never tried it, but I am picturing a heavy set of reins dipping the bit forward and perpendicular. Or a bulky headstall and light reins doing the opposite. What do you think? Doesn't the balance change once the headstall and reins are added?


Thank you, we love collecting and using them.
In my opinion, I don't think the headstall makes a difference if adjusted properly so the bit hangs correctly. But I do think the reins make a slight difference, they would have to be pretty heavy. You can see in the first pic with the square ported bit that I have reins attached and it is still a forgiving bit. I think the reins make more difference in the feel and signal to the bit.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

trailhorserider said:


> PS. Another thought. Would a bit balanced like the one in Cowchick77's last picture do anything to encourage headset? In theory? Because to find relief the horse would have to find the "correct" position?
> 
> I'm not advocating that as something you would want to do. I'm just curious. If the tension is always on unless the horse is in the right position would a bit with that type of balance encourage a better headset? I'm picturing something like a WP horse. You would want him to always have his head in that position while in the show ring, right?



In theory, yes, it would help encourage a headset. Or if not used properly it could just cause the horse to ignore the pressure if not trained properly to give to the pressure before hand to encourage the headset desired. No different than with any other bit, if he doesn't learn there is a release or where it is, they ignore it or get desensitized to it. This is where some people decide getting a bigger stronger bit is going to "fix' the problem.
Again this purely my opinion.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Horse Poor said:


> IMHO, you cannot tell how a bit is balanced by using your fingers - the bit itself will tell you how it is balanced. Here is a very good explanation at and here Bit Leverage | Horse-Pros.com and here Curb Bit Basics | Horse-Pros.com.


I am going to respectfully disagree here, I think balancing a bit in your hand is a good indication on how it will hang on a horse and how he will have to pack it in order to keep it neutral.

I notice in one of the articles posted above, when explaining balance it didn't take the port and mouthpiece into consideration. Not only the cheeks are part of the overall balance but also the mouthpiece and port play a equal part. But if the mouthpieces were exactly the same but the shanks were different then, yes, that alone would effect balance. Or the reverse to be fair. Perhaps the article mentioned so and I missed it...been known to happen:lol:

I took pics of three spade bits, all have a straight cheek for the most part. If you were to draw a straight line down through the cheek like illustrated in the article posted, they are pretty close to the same. However you can see that they are balanced differently. They all have the same mouthpiece but the height of the port, or spoon in this case, and the curvature effect the balance. 

I realize that most people are not riding in spades, but this would be an over exaggerated example of how other factors effect balance other than just the cheeks/shanks, however just as important, in my opinion.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Horse Poor said:


> Personally, if I'm going to use a curb bit, I prefer it have a slot so that I don't have to run the chain/strap through the purchase hole/ring which can pinch the horse (the hole/ring that the headstall attaches to - like the examples in Cowchick's photos - every single one shown uses the the same hole/ring for both headstall attachment and the curb strap)
> 
> *If the tack is properly fitted and you are using it properly, I honestly don't see how a horse can be pinched. I've been using bits like that (with just the one ring) for decades and I've never had a horse get pinched....but maybe that's just me :?.*
> 
> ...


If the horse is properly prepared in the snaffle bit, then bumping up to the curb bit is often no more complicated than just putting it on them and taking 5 minutes to get them used to the different pressure points and the different action. If the horse _suddenly_ has a conniption fit just because the bit is changed, then either the rider doesn't know how to properly use a curb bit and is hurting the horse by pulling on it too hard or the horse wasn't properly prepared to respond to other aids that accentuate the cues given through the bit.

As for the balance thing, I have to agree with Chick. You can get a great idea of the balance by balancing it on your fingers. That will show you the natural balance of the bit so that you can match it to the horse's headset and ability. You wouldn't put a bit with a straight up balance on a horse with a more nosed out headset and you wouldn't put a more swept back balance on a horse with a straight up headset. Doing either of those things would make the horse uncomfortable and more likely to act out because the tack isn't matched to him.

I did want to touch on that first link that Horse Poor posted, those people only take into account the shanks on the bit and they make assumptions about a horse's headset and other things that can get a person into trouble.

1) A bit does not create a vertical headset on a horse and if you are depending on a bit to teach that, then you aren't a very good horseman.

2) You will never find a good quality bit that is, as they say in the article, "overbalanced". That bit is a catastrophe waiting to happen because every time you pick up the reins, there is no warning of the cue to come, it all just comes crashing down into the horse's mouth like a ton of bricks. The only way that would be balanced bit on a horse is if the horse's natural headset was "rollkur" :?.

3) They assume that a bit that is "underbalanced", or has swept back shanks is undesirable. That's only true on a horse that _doesn't_ have a headset to match it. On a horse that travels slightly nosed out (like 90% of horses do), that would be a well balanced bit.

Those folks have their facts backward on the signal time and pressure build time. A bit with more swept back shanks gives more warning to the horse than does one with straighter shanks if ridden on the same length of rein.

The straight shanks are one of the problems with the Tom Thumb bit and one of the reasons why it's an ill-designed bit.

And so, we come full circle.


----------



## eliduc (Apr 5, 2010)

The Tom Thumb is a leverage bit that has a broken snaffle mouthpiece. Any leverage bit applies pressure to the poll, the tongue , the bars and the jaw bones. In addition because of the mouth piece this bit also has a severe nut cracker effect because of the shanks that is not present in a true snaffle. It is often misconceived as being a mild bit. It isn't. It is not a true snaffle nor is any leverage bit with a snaffle mouthpiece.


----------



## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

CC77 - I sure like that Santa Barbara in your third picture. 

I'm not great at explaning things, but once I select a bit and like the way it is balanced, I match my reins to that. That is the point of rein chains. You adjust the length of the chains so that the bit is balanced as intended. I hold the reins in approximately the same manner I will on the horse.

After trying that, I put it on a horse and check the balance against their head set to get a good fit.

Now someone better at explaining can come along and fill in any holes.


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

eliduc said:


> The Tom Thumb is a leverage bit that has a broken snaffle mouthpiece. Any leverage bit applies pressure to the poll, the tongue , the bars and the jaw bones. In addition because of the mouth piece this bit also has a severe nut cracker effect because of the shanks that is not present in a true snaffle. It is often misconceived as being a mild bit. It isn't. It is not a true snaffle nor is any leverage bit with a snaffle mouthpiece.


No one was saying it was a snaffle bit, everyone agrees it is a leverage bit. We were discussing how badly designed they are.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

boots said:


> CC77 - I sure like that Santa Barbara in your third picture.
> 
> I'm not great at explaning things, but once I select a bit and like the way it is balanced, I match my reins to that. That is the point of rein chains. You adjust the length of the chains so that the bit is balanced as intended. I hold the reins in approximately the same manner I will on the horse.
> 
> ...


Thanks!

And I completely agree with you!

Smrobs, I totally agree with you as well!


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^those bits are works of art!


----------



## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

DrumRunner said:


> My barrel mare Lark was trained and ridden in this..I will *NOT* ever put it back into her mouth and have been working for months to soften that poor girl's mouth...I *DO* hate it with a passion.
> 
> Really, if you want to say that one bit is bad and another and another..actually ANY bit can be awful in the wrong hands and the wrong rider. I don't care what bit you choose..any can be used wrong and the horse suffer from it...
> 
> ...


oh my gawd! that first bit ought to be illegal, it looks like a torture device! i love the combo bit on the bottom, except for the twisted wire, that a little too harsh for mine, as they are not finished yes.


----------



## 43horses (Feb 17, 2012)

i have an 18 year old mare, she uses a d-ring snaffle. for showing (western pleasure, [4-h show] )i need a differnt bit however any suggestions?


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

43horses, if you go back up and read through some of the previous posts, there are a couple of posts with links to nice, mild curb bits that are suitable for a horse just moving up from a snaffle.

One thing you'll need to make sure of first is that your horse will neck rein. They don't have to be perfect at it, but a good solid base is a must. If she won't neck rein, you'll need to teach that before trying her in a curb.


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

CowChick If you are going to post pics of those fancy bits then the least you can do is say who made them! Great bits anyway. I may start a fancy bit thread although I don't have much to offer it. Most of my stuff is pretty utilitarian.


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

The fancy bit thread is up in the Horse Talk sub-forum.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

kevinshorses said:


> CowChick If you are going to post pics of those fancy bits then the least you can do is say who made them! Great bits anyway. I may start a fancy bit thread although I don't have much to offer it. Most of my stuff is pretty utilitarian.


LOL, good idea Kevin!

In the first set of pics.
1. The little short shanked bit is a Kerry Kelley/Cactus bit

2. Jeremiah Watt

3. Benny Guitron/Franco

4. Paul Garcia

In the second set...

1. Garcia, also have the matching spurs. Hubbys mom bought the whole set for him for a b-day present. Very 70's collectible.

2. Elko star, bit unmarked. Friend of ours needed money and a pistol. We traded for it, it was his great grandfathers. I think it is kinda unwritten that you don't trade off a friends stuff if they are in a bad way so if they ever come back into a little money or tack they can trade back for it.

3. Is the same Benny Guitron/Franco


----------



## eliduc (Apr 5, 2010)

Gota Dun. This is not meant to be critical of either you or the bit you posted but I was wondering if you know what the mechanics of that bit are. The reason I am asking is because I think a lot of people buy a bit without really knowing how it works. Leverage bits are measured in ratios. A bit that has upper shanks that are two inches long from the top of the mouth piece to the top of the bridal ring and a lower shank that is five inches from the bottom of the mouth piece to the center of the rein ring would have a 2 to 5 ratio. The longer the upper shank is the more pressure that is applied to the poll. A bit that has a 4 to 5 ratio would apply a tremendous amount of poll pressure due to the leverage of the fulcrum effect. When both the top and bottom shank are long there is also more leverage on the curb strap pulling it forward and tightening it against the horses lower jaw bone. It's hard to tell from the picture but your bit looks to have maybe a 2.5 to 5 ratio which would be slightly on the strong side. 
The lower shanks appear longer than they are because of figure eight in the shank that takes up some of the length. Also, the shanks are swept back which softens the action of the curb and delays the action of the curb slightly which gives a warning to the horse and a chance to respond. English Pelhams and Liverpools that have vertical shanks are not kind bits. Your bit has a lot of tongue relief. This is nice for the tongue but it also brings the bar of the mouthpiece closer to the bars of the horses jaw. Lastly before buying any leverage bit the balance should be checked. When laid on the open hand the bit should tilt to the rear. The port should never be vertical. I would not have a problem with trying your bit on my horse.


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^yes I know the mechanics of that bit. I know the mechanics of all the bits I own. But there is a problem when people unfamilar with shanked bits, look at a TT, see a jointed mouthpiece and think it's an ok bit because it has a jointed mouthpiece. And of course the advertising of these bits doesn't help any either.


----------



## eliduc (Apr 5, 2010)

GotaDunQH said:


> ^yes I know the mechanics of that bit. I know the mechanics of all the bits I own. But there is a problem when people unfamilar with shanked bits, look at a TT, see a jointed mouthpiece and think it's an ok bit because it has a jointed mouthpiece. And of course the advertising of these bits doesn't help any either.


Not only that but I see that now they are calling any bit with shanks, no matter how long, and a jointed mouthpiece a Tom Thumb.


----------



## jody111 (May 14, 2008)

IN NZ this is a tom thumb:










Which is really just a snaffle and reasonably soft you see them on ponies alot - Im assuming though the OP was meaning the curb bit one that you are all referring too ?

Always funny how over the other side of the world same name can mean totally different things!


----------



## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

My favorite bit is a full cheek snaffle. I feel like if you get a horse to listen in a snaffle why go harsher on them. I mean its kinda like whispering to your child "go clean your room" and they do it...but even though they respond to you when you whisper successfully...the next time screaming at them GO CLEAN YOUR ROOM!!!!...why? I hate TT...here everyone rides with them...I am the odd ball. A horsey friend who is getting back in horses asked what bit to put on her horse I said get a snaffle. She went to Tractor Supply to get one and asked for one and the lady tried to sell her a TT and told her it was the same exact thing! I called down and gave them hell about it. Thank God she didnt buy it.


----------



## Sanala (Feb 18, 2012)

herdbound said:


> My favorite bit is a full cheek snaffle. I feel like if you get a horse to listen in a snaffle why go harsher on them. I mean its kinda like whispering to your child "go clean your room" and they do it...but even though they respond to you when you whisper successfully...the next time screaming at them GO CLEAN YOUR ROOM!!!!...why?


To me, if a snaffle is like telling your child "go clean your room," then going up to a curb is more like just looking at the kid and they already know what they're supposed to do and so they do it. They don't need so much encouragement in the curb if they've properly been schooled in a snaffle. If they don't immediately do what they need to be doing, then you gently ask at first and only get harsh if they ignore you. When you switch bits, you need to switch the way you work your hands. With a curb, I can lightly jiggle my rein and my horse will lower his head. The same horse in a snaffle will only be confused by the reins wiggling at his neck because there's no contact in his mouth. If you up your bit and soften your hands, you will have a softer horse.


----------



## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

Idk...I just can get my horse to do anything I need to do in that snaffle. Between the bit and the legs she knows what I want. I have extremely soft hands and I really naturally just stay out of their mouths. When I got my mare she had always been ridden with the big shanked western pleasure style bit and I threw it to the side and started her on the snaffle. At first we had some problems...she kinda acted like it was a joke...but I didn't stop trying it. Eventually she got it. I really don't have to stop her to much with my hands...just shift my weight back in the saddle. I turn her alot with my legs too...thats just my style of riding though. I try to let her mouth alone as much as possible...I ride with my whole body. BUT I am aware not every horse is like my mare...and I am so thankful to have that mare cause she is just a good dang horse. 

When I go to horse shows and I see people all up in the horses mouth I HATE it especially when it is a TT which in my area is so dang common everyone seems to use it and no one even tries to use it properly


----------



## Sanala (Feb 18, 2012)

herdbound said:


> Idk...I just can get my horse to do anything I need to do in that snaffle. Between the bit and the legs she knows what I want. I have extremely soft hands and I really naturally just stay out of their mouths. When I got my mare she had always been ridden with the big shanked western pleasure style bit and I threw it to the side and started her on the snaffle. At first we had some problems...she kinda acted like it was a joke...but I didn't stop trying it. Eventually she got it. I really don't have to stop her to much with my hands...just shift my weight back in the saddle. I turn her alot with my legs too...thats just my style of riding though. I try to let her mouth alone as much as possible...I ride with my whole body. BUT I am aware not every horse is like my mare...and I am so thankful to have that mare cause she is just a good dang horse.
> 
> When I go to horse shows and I see people all up in the horses mouth I HATE it especially when it is a TT which in my area is so dang common everyone seems to use it and no one even tries to use it properly


I do understand your point of view too, of course. I ride my horses in snaffles until showtime, and I even put my older guys in hackamores when I'm just riding for fun. I ride at a show barn that has one trainer and I always see her tossing corrections into these girl's horse's mouths and they're so surprised when their horse is listening so sharply (because most of them are so heavy handed the horse starts desperately looking for release). It's really sad. Some of them ride in corrections 24/7. I ride my horses in an offset D-Ring to keep them sharp and soft to my hand, and then ride them in a curb for a week before a show. After the show I go back to a D-Ring. Good riding is definitely all seat and leg with minimal rein cue.

At this same barn, the trainer has tom thumbs on all of her school horses. I hate it. Early beginners and daycamp kids are so jerky and clingy with their hands and double that with a TT and it's a sad situation. :\ I sold my old 17 year old gelding to her to use as a school horse and I made her sign a contract that she'd only use snaffles and hackamores on him. He's very soft mouthed and would throw a kid into the ground with a TT, even though he is one of the most patient horses I've ever known.


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

herdbound said:


> Idk...I just can get my horse to do anything I need to do in that snaffle. Between the bit and the legs she knows what I want. I have extremely soft hands and I really naturally just stay out of their mouths. When I got my mare she had always been ridden with the big shanked western pleasure style bit and I threw it to the side and started her on the snaffle. At first we had some problems...she kinda acted like it was a joke...but I didn't stop trying it. Eventually she got it. I really don't have to stop her to much with my hands...just shift my weight back in the saddle. I turn her alot with my legs too...thats just my style of riding though. I try to let her mouth alone as much as possible...I ride with my whole body. BUT I am aware not every horse is like my mare...and I am so thankful to have that mare cause she is just a good dang horse.
> 
> When I go to horse shows and I see people all up in the horses mouth I HATE it especially when it is a TT which in my area is so dang common everyone seems to use it and no one even tries to use it properly


You'll find most well trained western horses will perform in either a snaffle OR big big western curb bit, because hand is not used...everything comes from seat and leg. So what you are explaining above is not remarkable or out of the ordinary. It's just the result of a well trained western horse. I own one too.


----------



## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

Gota...when I switched her we did have to have "words" quite a few times. It was actually quite a bit of work to take her down to just this snaffle. She looked at it like a joke in the beginning...she did not want to stop, turning her was a pain, she just acted like "phooey lady"...maybe it wasn't just the switch of the bit either I have done alot of work with her to on legs, flexion...ect...it just all started to happen bout the time I switched bits  lol I started a few horses this past summer and they all get the full cheek snaffle .

And Sanala it actually made me cringe to think of these kids jerky around on these poor lesson horses mouths hopefully someone is over seeing their riding and preventing too much damage being done.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

What Gota is getting at is that her behavior is not due to the curb bit, it's due to bad training. I am also like Gota, and I can put any of my old horses that have only been ridden in curbs for years back into a simple snaffle and they respond just as well. I have to use more rein for them to feel the cue due to the mechanics of the bit, but they don't resist or ignore me.


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

smrobs said:


> What Gota is getting at is that her behavior is not due to the curb bit, it's due to bad training. I am also like Gota, and I can put any of my old horses that have only been ridden in curbs for years back into a simple snaffle and they respond just as well. I have to use more rein for them to feel the cue due to the mechanics of the bit, but they don't resist or ignore me.


Yep...exactly what I meant. I ride my horse is different bits every time I ride; from a snaffle, to a correction, to a low port grazer etc, and he responds the same in each bit. He doesn't like the tongue pressure of a single jointed snaffle, but he will still work in one.


----------

