# What's wrong with gray?



## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

I feel like ~75% of the young gray ads say the horse is roan and even though i am not looking to buy it drives me insane since it is not correct. Especially because one of the parents has to be gray, it's not a surprise.

Why is there such a bias against gray?

I am vaguely aware there is a higher chance of some sort of growth things later in life but i didn't figure that was the case?


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## AbbySmith (Nov 15, 2020)

IMO, I think most people just don't know the difference between a roan and a grey,so they say it's a grey when really its not. Nothing against them though.


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

I could see that if someone got it from an auction or killpen. But i guess i don't think the number of ads for it makes sense to all be second owners from mystery horse backgrounds. Some of them bred the horses themselves.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

And that doesn't make them more likely to know anything about color genetics. To many people roan is the hot ticket. Who doesn't want a blue roan....sounds rare and exotic. If you can get more for that then why sell a plain Jane gray?


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

Not a fashionable colour, getting lighter as it ages so harder to keep clean and melanomas. Greys were the in thing when I was young, now I often read adverts that say 'no greys'.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I wouldn't buy a gray by choice. Or any light-colored horse, especially those with pink skin around their eyes and nostrils. To me, all light colors are nothing but trouble plus they are not pretty (except darker dapple grays, which don't stay that way). Don't know why others don't like them, though. I'd consider a roan.


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## Barrelgirl123 (Jan 15, 2021)

AbbySmith said:


> IMO, I think most people just don't know the difference between a roan and a grey,so they say it's a grey when really its not. Nothing against them though.


Yeah i would say thats the case


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## Barrelgirl123 (Jan 15, 2021)

QtrBel said:


> And that doesn't make them more likely to know anything about color genetics. To many people roan is the hot ticket. Who doesn't want a blue roan....sounds rare and exotic. If you can get more for that then why sell a plain Jane gray?


I think people should know the truth sbout everything so they know they really want the horse still!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

They are not lying if they do not know the difference. But, yes, there are people that take advantage of those that dont know. 

I really hate reading and seeing that so many consider sellers dishonest. As a seller I could certainly say the same of buyers that are not honest about their skill level, experience or direction you want to go with your purchase. I also don't like the know it all attitude that comes with those that think they can train a horse but have no clue - all because they watched some video.

You see it goes both ways.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

There are a lot of people who honestly don't know the difference ,between a roan and a horse turning grey.

Wouldn't own a grey horse melanomas are likely when they get older. So nope won't touch a grey horse with a ten foot pole. 

Won't own anything with lage amounts of pink skin either. Pink around eyes is a no go, bald face is a no go.


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

Ah okay, i didn't realize that many people couldn't tell. I personally haven't had a bad experience buying from a breeder. I did pass on buying from some horse flippers/commission sellers that i felt like were dishonest or had a bunch of sick horses or whatever issues. Or desperately trying to get me to leave with anything, i came for gaited mares they pushed non-gaited geldings because they had a lot of them i guess. One mare had such a bad cough i couldnt even comfortably attempt a test ride.

Im not horribly against gray i just wouldn't seek it out specifically. I have just seen more grays as roans for sale locally than i have seen actual roans for sale. I guess i have just found it surprising and given some of my bad shopping experiences, i assumed it was sellers trying to take advantage of the naive. And was wondering why buyers were so opposed to begin with.

I did buy a gelding with a horribly pink nose, one of the 2 reasons i initially passed on him. Then he ended up being the better of the horses i looked at. So sunscreen and fly masks it is. 

I feel like i tend to say i am a level below my experience level when horse shopping because i just don't like dealing with super hot horses or major problems.


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## AragoASB (Jul 12, 2020)

I like greys because they will eventually turn white. Yes I know they are still considered greys. Of the 14 horses I have had in my life none were grey. Yet it is a white horse that comes to me in my dreams. Greys are higher maintanence, they show dirt and stains to be groomed away and have to be watched for melanomas. I hope the final horse of my life will be grey and turn white. Then my hair will match my horse without being dyed.

I have alwas dyed my hair to match my horse- auburn for blood bay, red for chestnuts, black for black although it looks harsh. Although I never bleached blond to match my palomino, that damages the hair too much and would look trashy. Now I have a black bay and the first that matches my natural hair color. Although I still have to dye my hair because if I don't the roots grow out and it looks like ..... I have a skunk on my head


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## fireandicehorse (Nov 21, 2020)

Grays are at a substantially higher risk of developing melanoma because gray is actually a pigment disease. It causes horses to be born with excessive pigment, and then the pigment cells basically die because they are overworked, making the horse have no pigment in their hair. Then after a few years some pigment cells will sort of revive, especially in heterozygous horses, causing them to be fleabitten. Melanomas can be deadly and are a hassle to deal with. Also, I am just not a fan of the color in general.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

I worked at a horse farm that lost a grey mare to melanomas. Had them internally also extremely. Had to be pts due to rapid decline in health.

Owner had had some of the external one removed but they came back with a vengeance.

Vet did a necropsy and horse was full of melanomas internally.

Know someone who's grey geldings sheath is just full of melanomas, as far as vet could reach up in there. His fate will be pts. So grey is a never own color of horse.


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

How often do grays tend to get the melanomas?


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

ferricyanide said:


> How often do grays tend to get the melanomas?


I don't know what the statistics are, but I think it's actually less than they say, because I've owned 3 grays and NEVER had a problem with melanomas. I've owned ONE Paint and he did develop some skin cancers, but by the time he had to be euthanized in his old age it was because he was arthritic and crippled up, not the cancers that got him.

So I've had 3 grays........

One was an Arabian gelding that I bought around the age of 14 and kept him until he died of colic at age 24. Could it have been melanoma? Anything is possible but he NEVER had a single outward melanoma anywhere on his body, so I kind of doubt it.

Second gray was a 16 yr old Fox Trotter mare. She had two external melanomas, the biggest was the size of a small pencil eraser. She died in her mid 20's from unknown causes (new owners suddenly found her dead overnight) and so I kind of doubt it was the melanomas. They never seemed to grow or spread in any way and I kept her until about 2 years before she died.

Third gray was the son of the Fox Trotter mare and I kept him until he was 8 and sold him on because he was too much horse for me. He's still young, but no signs of melanomas when I sold him or currently as far as I know.

So for me, personally, it is a non-issue. I've loved my grays and never had a problem with melanomas on any of them. If I used other people's logic, it's Paint horses I would be avoiding like the plague! But I like them too!

Back to the main subject, I find it VERY common that people will be selling youngish grays and calling them roans. I just think they don't know the difference. There was one on my local Craigslist just a few days ago, obviously a gray. People are just ignorant. I once met a lady with a varnish roan Appalooosa that she just bought and was calling it a Paint because someone told her it was a Paint. I'm like, Google "varnish roan Appaloosa." 

Sometimes we have to stop and realize that not everyone is on the Internet researching EVERYTHING about horses they way we are! It's obvious to most of us.......not to the general public, even the general horse-owning public. Think of what else they don't know about horses!

Anyway, I would never pass on an otherwise great horse because of the color. And I think greys are lovely! I dislike pink-skinned horses more, but would probably own of those if the right one came a long. A good horse is never a bad color. And if gray is a bad color, what about pink skinned horses prone to squamous cell carcinomas? What about Appaloosas (prone to moon blindness)? What about silver dapple horses.......also prone to eye issues I believe? What about all the muscular Quarter Horses on tiny little feet prone to navicular? THAT worries me more. With my luck they would go crippled and I'd be feeding them for 20 years and unable to ride. Almost every horse has it's risks. 

Now I would probably not BUY a horse with melanomas. I did check my mare over head-to-toe when I bought her, lifted up her tail and examined it and her genitalia and everything. But I would buy a grey that looked fine. To each their own.......I've loved my greys! Yes, they could die, but they will all die of something.


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## Palfrey (May 29, 2020)

I've had greys my whole life. Arabs and Andalusians, so it's kind of a standard issue color. Yes, some did get melanomas, but I don't feel like it shortened their lives at all. It's not like they were passing away at 7. They were in their late 20s when their time came to humanely euthanize. It's true that melanomas are no walk in the park, but I wouldn't shy away from a good horse based on color. 

I am ignorant of people advertising horses that are grey as "roan" however, but I'm perhaps looking in the wrong area (if I'm being honest, I'd be looking at Friesians for sale and they only come in one color).


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## AragoASB (Jul 12, 2020)

Not to change the subject too much but what about all the people people getting melanomas from lying around in the sun or just everyday sun exposure? My uncle developed a black spot under his thumb nail. He thought it was because he must have accidently hit his thumb with a hammer. Now he's dead.


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## All About Hope (Nov 10, 2020)

Kind of a dumb question, but what's wrong with horses who have pink on their nose? Does it give them sunburn?


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Any horse with pink skin in any location is likely to burn in those places if exposed to sun.

My grey lived to 40 according to the family she was given to when I moved here. No melanoma. Qtr Arabian cross.


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

My grey welsh never suffered from melanoma and I was in contact with numerous others who were fine, they were welsh, highlands, TBs and unknowns.

I've known one, a gorgeous anglo arab mare, who was riddled with them and used as an example when teaching.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

Avna said:


> I wouldn't buy a gray by choice. Or any light-colored horse, especially those with pink skin around their eyes and nostrils. To me, all light colors are nothing but trouble plus they are not pretty (except darker dapple grays, which don't stay that way). Don't know why others don't like them, though. I'd consider a roan.


One grey here that has been clipped - he's pink almost everywhere and apparently sunburns on his back! I thought I had it hard with my mare just creaming her nose! 

I didn't really want a grey mare but here I am. And honestly I love not needing need to worry about the dust as my perfectionist-self curries quite thoroughly and then struggles getting it off with the darker ones :< I like being able to spot blood or blemish with a glance, even when its muddy. And with a good diet her coat is lovely and really easy to clean up with a good brushing.


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

@Kalraii - I didn't look for a grey either it just happened that way. Sasha wasn't too bad to keep clean, she was white/grey and I loved her coat when it was as really clean and, I agree, it was easier to see scratches.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Morris Animal Foundation says "up to 80%" of gray horses will develop melanoma over their lifetime. Of course many of these cases will be more minor. So if your grays did not develop it, you were lucky. This is a case of "the plural of anecdote is not statistic".


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

Wow up to 80% is high I was expecting it to be a lot lower like 10% or less.

Also maybe some of it is a lack of knowledge.... I finally saw my first blue roan horse that someone had "gray" listed on the papers. The comments on the post were quick to point out the error.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I love greys, so I don't know why this is. I have a grey Arab who will be 22 in March, and a grey base leopard appy who is still young. No melanomas in either. We do apply powdered zinc oxide to our Arab's pink nose and he wears a fly mask with nose piece, but the Appy doesn't ever seem to burn. Maybe it helps that I live in a cool climate? I only worry about sunburn for maybe 3 months a year, and even then, not every day. 

I guess it's just trends. Give me a grey over a roan anyday. I actually don't like the look of roans at all. They look dirty to me (but so do a lot of greys to be honest).


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Avna said:


> Morris Animal Foundation says "up to 80%" of gray horses will develop melanoma over their lifetime. Of course many of these cases will be more minor. So if your grays did not develop it, you were lucky. This is a case of "the plural of anecdote is not statistic".


I wonder what is the statistic for other colours though. My small animal vet says pretty much all dogs, if they live long enough, will get cancer. It may not kill them, but they will get it eventually. So just what is the difference in terms of percentage for other colours? 80% sounds high, but it's not necessarily the case if compared with other colour patterns. 

I'm not disagreeing though - I do realize greys are more at risk. I did not intentionally buy two greys (I swear, lol). But I do love the look of a grey.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Acadianartist said:


> I wonder what is the statistic for other colours though. My small animal vet says pretty much all dogs, if they live long enough, will get cancer. It may not kill them, but they will get it eventually. So just what is the difference in terms of percentage for other colours? 80% sounds high, but it's not necessarily the case if compared with other colour patterns.
> 
> I'm not disagreeing though - I do realize greys are more at risk. I did not intentionally buy two greys (I swear, lol). But I do love the look of a grey.


From what I am reading, other colors CAN get melanomas, but it is fairly rare. Of course some other colors have their own sets of problems.


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

Grulla is a new one.

The papers even say gray and the name has changing colors in it.... Grulla does look like the original color though.


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

@ferricyanide She might be a grey dun, a mouse dun/grulla who's carrying the grey gene


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

@Caledonian yes i agree with you, that the horse is grulla going gray.


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

I think it depends on how you understand colours. To me she's a grey dun and not a grey.

They'd be different colours over here; one's a dun horse and the other isn't, but we have our own, traditional, descriptions. In some areas a grey would be called a blue.


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

Ah around here we call grulla/o a black coat with a dun gene. I hear other places call it something more similar to mouse gray, in their language. 🤷‍♀️ I was just trying to figure out why so many people didn't like gray. So i guess i got some answers on that.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Avna said:


> From what I am reading, other colors CAN get melanomas, but it is fairly rare. Of course some other colors have their own sets of problems.


Yes, you got my interest peaked so I did some reading. Apparently other colours rarely get melanomas, but when they do, they tend to be far more dangerous. 

Another tidbit: if your grey is flea-bitten, and if the specks are chestnut, the risk is lower (this describes Harley who was actually born a chestnut and has kept a lot of that colour in the form of brown flecks).


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I love grullas (aka blue dun, mouse dun; genetic black with a dun gene). Unexcited about roans, love the look of a dark dappled gray but the melanoma thing is a turn off. I don't like to buy trouble if I can avoid it.


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

Haha, i saw this thread and had to pop in because i was just thinking the same thing! I follow a genetics page on facebook and it is amazing how many people just don't want to believe their horse is grey. They will insist it is roan, or post hoping that they will be told it is some fancy color. 
Or i see people looking for a dapple grey or a rose grey - little understanding that it will not stay that color for long. 
I think it's because people who buy a horse because it had nice coloring don't like the idea of the horse changing to boring old white. 
I personally prefer horses with color but my mother in law loves greys. She has 2, both in their twenties, one developed melanoma, the other did not. He's lived with it for ten years (since he was diagnosed) and it has only just begun to show signs of affecting his health, but he's also 25.


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## AragoASB (Jul 12, 2020)

White horses are actually grey.
















































'


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

lilruffian said:


> Haha, i saw this thread and had to pop in because i was just thinking the same thing! I follow a genetics page on facebook and it is amazing how many people just don't want to believe their horse is grey. They will insist it is roan, or post hoping that they will be told it is some fancy color.
> Or i see people looking for a dapple grey or a rose grey - little understanding that it will not stay that color for long.
> I think it's because people who buy a horse because it had nice coloring don't like the idea of the horse changing to boring old white.
> I personally prefer horses with color but my mother in law loves greys. She has 2, both in their twenties, one developed melanoma, the other did not. He's lived with it for ten years (since he was diagnosed) and it has only just begun to show signs of affecting his health, but he's also 25.


I know, I see so many "roans" advertised that are grey. They don't seem to get that the horse is born dark and then greys out. So they go through a phase where they look "roany" but that doesn't make them a genetic roan. Like that grulla several posts above. Sure, he can be a grulla, but he is ALSO a gray. People just don't research the genetics like some of us do.


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## AragoASB (Jul 12, 2020)




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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

This one doesn't look like a gray to me, unless he also has an extensive pinto pattern. I say that because his "jewels" look light-skinned. And his nose too of course, but we could hypothesize that's just a big blaze.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

ferricyanide said:


> Grulla is a new one.
> 
> The papers even say gray and the name has changing colors in it.... Grulla does look like the original color though.
> 
> ...


Oh my gosh, I just realized her name is "Changing Colors." How cute, and appropriate!


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

trailhorserider said:


> I know, I see so many "roans" advertised that are grey. They don't seem to get that the horse is born dark and then greys out. So they go through a phase where they look "roany" but that doesn't make them a genetic roan. Like that grulla several posts above. Sure, he can be a grulla, but he is ALSO a gray. People just don't research the genetics like some of us do.


Yup, but i think many people don't understand grey. I know people who are amazed that any color can grey, they believe it is color specific (one example being that only bay horses can go grey). There's a lot to color genetics though, and the more you learn the more people drive you crazy!
I've owned horse books when i was younger that had photos of greying horses labeled as examples of roan in the color chapters


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

lilruffian said:


> Yup, but i think many people don't understand grey. I know people who are amazed that any color can grey, they believe it is color specific (one example being that only bay horses can go grey). There's a lot to color genetics though, and the more you learn the more people drive you crazy!
> I've owned horse books when i was younger that had photos of greying horses labeled as examples of roan in the color chapters


People don't understand LP either. (Not that I am an expert either, but I have a general idea). But I met a lady once who JUST bought a horse of Craigslist and was showing me photos of her new "Paint." I'm like, um, "Google varnish roan Appaloosa." She never did believe me it was an Appaloosa because someone else told her it was a Paint. Shrug.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

Late to this thread. My daughter had a beautiful grey fox trotter. She developed small melanomas as she neared 20 - one on an eye lid that became very large. We lost her to a mysterious illness in 2019 (she spent 2 weeks in an equine hospital with low liver values) we did not opt for a necropsy but the lead vet felt internal melanomas may have had something to do with it. 80% of grey horses get melanomas - some you see, some you don't. Personally my family will never own another grey horse. The risk of serious melanomas is to great and the vaccine for melanomas promised to the horse industry never came through.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I will not own a grey again. I live in an area that is hot and sunny. They are more prone to tumors. I have no issues with blazes , pink noses, paints etc. I just get fly mask. I have had 3 greys, a TB, A quarter (registered as roan but his mom was grey ) and an Arab. The TB and Arab would get melonamas, that would become a mess from the sun and flies, or from bumping them and causing a sore. The Arab had to be put down due to the amount of tumors she had, and when the did the necropsy she was full of tumors. The TB also had some internal tumors but he was in his 30's and had to be put down because he was losing the use of his hind end and would fall trying to get up. ;( . The quarter ended up with copd / heaves and in my area it is hot and dry and he could not breathe. I did not have a necropsy done.


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## EL_R223 (10 mo ago)

trailhorserider said:


> I don't know what the statistics are, but I think it's actually less than they say, because I've owned 3 grays and NEVER had a problem with melanomas. I've owned ONE Paint and he did develop some skin cancers, but by the time he had to be euthanized in his old age it was because he was arthritic and crippled up, not the cancers that got him.
> 
> So I've had 3 grays........
> 
> ...


I'd also like to add that there are preventative measures if you're worried about melanoma such as UV protective fly sheets and masks that prevent UV rays from passing through the fabric. If your horse has a pink nose a good quality high SPF Sunscreen applied routinely will also go a long way in protecting them. Heck even stabling during the highest UV hours in the day (generally 10:30-2:30) would be a great preventative measure.

I live in a country with one of the highest UV index, it's so bad here that people get melanoma's constantly despite the large majority of people being very sun safe due to public awareness campaigns for the past 50 years. My own grandfather died of metastisized melanoma despite previously making it through an unrelated cancer, it's really not something you want to mess around with. I even know a 19-year-old who's had to have 3 skin cancers cut out of her scalp and lower neck already, her parents never made her wear hats when she was growing up. 

Anyway, due to that I personally wouldn't purposefully breed for or seek to buy greys or cremello horses as they'd just get roasted, although I don't think people that do are bad people or anything I just wouldn't want to as I know that where I live it's more likely than not they'll develop melanomas at some point or another. 

I really like paints, they usually have such goofy and stellar personalities, are strong but elegent and I love the individuality of their markings. If I did get one I'd just have to use preventative measures just as I would a grey. So honestly if you like greys get a grey, if you don't then don't but take into account your climate and adopt preventative measures to give your horse the best chance of not developing issues down the track.


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