# Picking up feet over poles



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Are you using plastic pipe or wood poles? Lightweight poles make them lazy legged.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

What distances are you placing them at?


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## sonib82 (Jul 24, 2015)

The poles were plastic but cavaletti is wood. I can work on it with wood poles. Distance for trot poles is ~3 feet and walking poles is 18". Within the regulations for the class and I have a short strided horse.

Thanks!


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Set your poles/cavaletti and lunge your horse over them to see if they are a comfortable distance. You say that your horse is short strided, but a "standard distance" is just where you start, and you want your horse to be comfortable. 
Don't give up on the cavaletti work! 
You can also rake the area and then ride the trot once over it, dismount, tie him up and measure with a measuring tape, then readjust the cavaletti to fit HIS natural stride. You will know that horse is making progress when the trotting over the cavaletti has a lot of spring, and it may help to ride in a half seat instead of posting.
I would check on the distances. I haven't ever heard of 18" or even 3'.
How to space your cavaletti | Reflections on Riding


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

There are three very effective things you can do to teach a horse to carefully pick their way through poles. When I was seriously showing a lot of trail horses, I set up poles that utilized all three ways. I used the same ways to teach horses not touch the poles for back-throughs (like 'Ls' and side-pass logs). Using these methods, I won the year-end high points in trail for many years in big AQHA Associations and trained many horses that qualified in Youth and Amateur World events. The only Arabian I trained for trail was a US National Top Ten Trail horse. These are very effective methods if you are serious enough to do the work.

1) I set up trail obstacles that were permanent and SOLID. The poles did not move.

2) I set up poles on the top of small posts so they were elevated about 6 inches above the ground. That way, a lazy, careless horse bumped its pasterns and not its hooves.

3) I used lodge-pole pine poles. They were rough with rough bark on them and a lot of tiny stobbs sticking out about 1/4 inch. When I lived in Colorado, I got a Forest Service permit and cut them myself. When I moved to Oklahoma, I brought about 100 poles with me. I thought it was that important to have them to school horses over. [ I also used them for jump poles.]

Before I started putting any horse over these poles, I made sure the horse was really broke and ready to go over something that had no 'give' in it. To make horses learn to be very careful, I had poles set up a various spacings. One set of poles was even set up in a 'Z' pattern. They were carefully spaced so that they were set as 'trot' poles when I headed a horse through the exact center of them. The horse obviously had to be much more thoughtful and careful when I put it to the left or right of the center-line. My square box was elevated. 

I had two bridges -- a wide bridge and one that was only 18 inches wide, about 10 feet long and over 12 inches high.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Cherie, I had a grin on my face when I read your 'solid poles'. I had a good young horse in to make into a Foxhunter. He was easy, willing and loved to work _but_ he had no respect for poles. 
Ant fence he was put over he jumped a few inches lower, didn't matter if it was 2'6" or 4' he just always took the top pole. 

At the time I didn't have access to cross country fences. I took him to the beach and we jumped the breakwaters. I think he clouted three or four before he picked up his back legs! 

A week later some hounds diverted from the pack,three of us went after them and found ourselves confronted with a wire fence. Lesson had been learned because he cleared it well!


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## sonib82 (Jul 24, 2015)

Cherie said:


> There are three very effective things you can do to teach a horse to carefully pick their way through poles. When I was seriously showing a lot of trail horses, I set up poles that utilized all three ways. I used the same ways to teach horses not touch the poles for back-throughs (like 'Ls' and side-pass logs). Using these methods, I won the year-end high points in trail for many years in big AQHA Associations and trained many horses that qualified in Youth and Amateur World events. The only Arabian I trained for trail was a US National Top Ten Trail horse. These are very effective methods if you are serious enough to do the work.
> 
> 1) I set up trail obstacles that were permanent and SOLID. The poles did not move.
> 
> ...


Thank you Cherie! I board, so will see what options are available, but am definitely willing to do the work.

One other question for you, do you find that your horses naturally "check out" the obstacles when they are solid like the method described above? I feel like judges want to see the lowered head over walking poles or bridges, but my horse just goes through. I'm not sure how to teach that or if you even need to. Thoughts?

Thanks!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I haven't been able to figure out why judges seem to think a horse has to drop it's nose almost on an obstacle before or while crossing it. My good trail horse never rapped anything nor stumbled and his nose was never lower than the bottom of his chest. Back to OP. Try setting the cavaletti in a sunburst pattern. This allows you to chose the distance you ask your horse to cross which makes it pay better attention to where it's placing it's feet.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

A horse will drop his nose to look at anything that is new. If you train over obstacles, same horse won't bat an eyelash at them. HOWEVER, many Hunter courses have flowerboxes and other things attached to the jumps, and a green horse WILL take notice. This separates those who are prepared from those who are not.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

I will add that you need to make sure your horse is moving dynamically as you approach the poles. If they're being lazy and slow, there's a much better chance they won't have the energy to really pick those feet up and have the trot they should have.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

ecasey said:


> I will add that you need to make sure your horse is moving dynamically as you approach the poles. If they're being lazy and slow, there's a much better chance they won't have the energy to really pick those feet up and have the trot they should have.


I'm afraid that 'moving dynamically' will not win a trail class. Thankfully, the Foundation Shows and the new Ranch classes do not want horses creeping through obstacles quite as slow as other breed shows and open shows. Most trail classes want horses to be VERY slow and Very precise. I quit showing breed show Pleasure, Trail and Western Riding when they started wanting horses to drop their heads too low and go too slow for my tastes. I only showed Reining and Reined Cowhorse after that. Now, they are bringing horses' heads back up and moving a little more naturally, but still not my preferred style.

Most trainers teach a 'head down' cue to tell horses to drop their heads for a particular obstacle. You can lean forward, shake the reins slightly and push down on the horse's neck to teach it to drop its head. You do not go forward or release the pressure on its neck until it drops its head. Then, you gradually eliminate the pressure and the rein shake and it will quickly learn to drop its head when you lean forward and extend your hand a little. 

Like everything else, you start with a combination of aids to get a horse to do something. Then, you gradually eliminate the aids one at a time until you have transferred the cue to the one simple and least dramatic cue to tell the horse what you want. Soon, you can use cues that are so 'light' and imperceptible, that a person observing you cannot see the aid at all. The well-trained horse makes it look like 'mental telepathy' with no visible aids.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

When I first saw "peanut rollers" I couldn't help but wonder what prestigious judge had decided that is how it should be done and the others followed suit. The judge was an idiot. Any horse that is confident and trusting in it's rider doesn't need to put it's nose on everything. In competitive trail we don't see horses stopping to sniff, they trust their riders to guide them thro the course.


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## sonib82 (Jul 24, 2015)

Thank you for the input. I'm definitely not into peanut rolling  I was more curious than anything about the dropped head over obstacles. Mainly thinking about that for a bridge and not poles. 

They just added ranch pleasure and ranch trail to our breed shows (I show Apps) so I should watch a few of those classes. Curious to see if there's less dramatics about the head placement over poles than in the standard trail class.

Thanks again for the input!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Good points by Cheri
I also have shown several horses to year end championships in trail, and ROMs , so will add a few things.
Solid poles-yes!
The approach also is very important, as you need that first stride to be clean and at the right place, and then have that rhythm of the stride to continue on through clean, and the approach is esp very important once you move on to lope overs 
I thus use my legs and seat, a slight pickup of my reins, to ask a horse to collect coming up to those poles, and then let him go to continue on through
The reason you want a horse to look down, at times, esp when a walk over is in combo with another obstacle, like bridge or box, is because otherwise he just strides out, esp not watching where he places his feet
For instance, this past weekend, I rode a trail pattern, which among other things, featured two boxes side by side, with walk over poles on both the approach of the first box, and the exit of the second box,
Thus, after doing the 360 to the left in the first box, you have to have your horse stride cleanly into the second box, and do a 360 tot he right, then walk out of the box and over three ground poles. If the horse does not pause, then look down when given that cue, he will clip those walk overs
You don't need that feature, when just going over a series of jog overs or lope overs, as you are in motion at the approach, and set the horse up correctly so that his first stride is correct,and then he just follows through.
This is not true,when you negotiate a tight walk over, esp in combo with another obstacle
My cue for that head to lower, is the same one I use riding, thus I lightly bump with my legs and a slight lifting of the reins
Trail classes now are scored, with a plus and minus system. Thus, if a horse looks at a bridge, by slightly lowering his head, has expression, you are going to get plused, over a horse that just motors on, and often not careful as to how he goes over that bridge
In other words, besides using poles that have some consequence, not rolling when the horse ticks them, the horse will become more careful not to rap his legs
You loose points when a horse hits them, and also the degree of fault between a hind foot tick and that of a front foot


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Saddlebag said:


> When I first saw "peanut rollers" I couldn't help but wonder what prestigious judge had decided that is how it should be done and the others followed suit. The judge was an idiot. Any horse that is confident and trusting in it's rider doesn't need to put it's nose on everything. In competitive trail we don't see horses stopping to sniff, they trust their riders to guide them thro the course.



First, you don't have a horse stop and sniff an obstacle, nor is the horse peanut rolling, when he is asked to look at an obstacle!
There is much more precision trail in judged trail events, at the breed level, then there is in competitive trail
If you are riding a very tight trail course, no way are you not going to tick rails at times, if you can't ask your horse to lower his head when he needs to, and just let him motor on through!
Competitive trail is more on time and challenging obstacles, while judged trail is on a high degree of difficulty,far as getting through that course clean, with that course set up tight
Here is a youth championship trail ride, and if that horse was just looking straight ahead with head up, he never would have been able to d that run

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGcla-XSQaU



You can't compare apple to oranges, and if you have not ridden this type of trail, how do you know what is needed??????


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

sonib82 said:


> Thank you for the input. I'm definitely not into peanut rolling  I was more curious than anything about the dropped head over obstacles. Mainly thinking about that for a bridge and not poles.
> 
> They just added ranch pleasure and ranch trail to our breed shows (I show Apps) so I should watch a few of those classes. Curious to see if there's less dramatics about the head placement over poles than in the standard trail class.
> 
> Thanks again for the input!



I also show ApHC, and peanut rolling was a term applied formly when western pleasure horses moved with heads way to low, but you will not see those horses winning today, at shows with good judging-so lets drop peanut rolling, and it certainly does not apply to trail!!!

You see horses at open shows, just clunk over bridges, often not watching where they place their feet. Also, at breed level, the approach to the bridge often has some tight walk overs,and if your horse just marched ahead w, without looking at the approach, know what you would hear-clunk, clunk, clunk!
Thus, if you want to plus that obstacle, have your horse lower his head and look at it. Some competitors over do this, but you do want some lowering of the head, with the horse looking at his approach. Once you get tot he3 breed level, not only are trial courses tighter, but more difficult, and the way you get through them, can decide between any close runs

In my avatar, if Smilie just walked out of that box afterwards, without lowering her head slightly, she would not have walked cleanly both out of that box and over those walk over poles


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## sonib82 (Jul 24, 2015)

Smilie said:


> First, you don't have a horse stop and sniff an obstacle, nor is the horse peanut rolling, when he is asked to look at an obstacle!
> There is much more precision trail in judged trail events, at the breed level, then there is in competitive trail
> If you are riding a very tight trail course, no way are you not going to tick rails at times, if you can't ask your horse to lower his head when he needs to, and just let him motor on through!
> Competitive trail is more on time and challenging obstacles, while judged trail is on a high degree of difficulty,far as getting through that course clean, with that course set up tight
> ...


Yes, the world show trail class setups are something else! I watch how carefully those horses pick up their feet over walk overs and that's what I want to teach my horse. He will look and pick up his feet the first time over, but after that, it's like, "nah, I don't want to work that hard!" and starts clipping walk overs with his back feet. 

We will definitely try the more solid approach going forward.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Cheri, I have to diagree with you, that western riding, trail and western pl have not become more difficult
Trail courses were never this tight in the past, nor did they have that large combo of lope overs. You did not need to have ahorse move with that same precision in the past.
As for western riding, a class I love, having earned superiors on several horses int hat class, it also has become more difficult, with horses changing leads at percise spots on a loose rein, without changing cadence or speed and without rein support,a nd what won in the past, no longer wins today
You are not the only one, having gone to ranch horse competitions int hose events,which does reflect more as to what is done in the 'real' world, but at the same time, the showring does not need to relate directly to that, but rather shows degree of difficulty.
\Ranch pleasure is much what is seen at open shows, and that is fine, if that is how far you wish to take western pl, but at the same time, you can't tell me that Ranch horse pleasure involves the same degree of difficulty or training level
The oP wants to show breed, so Ranch horse, extreme trail, all have no relevance to the post

Far as the point of having ahorse lower his head, to see something directly in front of him, that is the way a horse naturally can see something right in front of his feet, due to the vision flieds that a horse has;

'A horse's large eye is an advantage as it enables him to detect the slightest motion which is why windy days make most horses uneasy...too many moving things! The horse moves its head in order to bring the object into its binocular field, which also gives better depth perception. This offers a better view, as while the horse has both monocular and binocular vision, he probably can't utilize both at the same time, hence he raises his head to switch to both (binocular) eyes. Say you are riding along, your horse nice and relaxed...he is probably using his monocular vision. Suddenly he spots an unusual object ahead and instantly raises his head and ****** his ears. This allows him to look down his nose and employ his binocular vision. If the object is on the ground, the horse will lower his head, again in order to look down his nose and use both eyes for a clear view.

And the complete article:

Horsewyse–HOW HORSES SEE!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> Cheri, I have to diagree with you, that western riding, trail and western pl have not become more difficult


I never said they were not more difficult. I said they wanted horses to be "VERY slow and VERY precise" -- which is true. I agree that they are very difficult at the top level of breed shows. They are simply not what I prefer to do with a horse. I prefer natural movement and prefer my preciseness to be demonstrated in flat, fast spins, roll-backs and hard running cattle work. The super-slow, super-collected way the top pleasure, trail and western riding horses move is just not my cup of tea. 

If the OP is sincerely interested in slowing at this top level, I would highly recommend working with a show trainer that specializes in and successfully prepares Amateur and youth exhibitors in these precise classes.

In the mean time, if she wants to teach her horse to be more careful and precise through trail obstacles, the methods I presented will work for any horse that has to carefully go through and over logs and other obstacles. Using only solid logs and elevating them works for all horses.

I would also recommend that the OP objectively evaluates her horse's 'way of going', gaits and natural ability to see if this is even a good prospect to show at a high level. The level of showing in question is only a realistic goal for very good moving and very 'slow-footed' prospects that travel 'level' naturally. The best ones are absolutely bred to be good at what they are good at.

There is no good or bad style; just different styles. Each style of riding and showing appeals to different people.


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