# Unbalanced horse?



## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

lounging and round pen work teaches them to balance themselves. I would start there.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks for the Reply! We're working on the lounging thing. The whip terrifies him, and we don't have access to a round pen or help from others. (We board at a really cheap, convienent place, but they have no facilities, just a big field). Do you have any advice for this?


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

What do you mean by unbalanced? Is he tripping, wobbling around all over the place?
If his hips aren't straight, I'd look at having a physio/chiro do some work on him first, in conjunction with some correct lunging and in hand work to develop muscle. 
If he is not even able to walk straight on a lead, I'd also be looking towards it being a behavioural issue more so than a balance issue unless he has something seriously wrong physically. 
If he's wobbling around not walking on a straight line, it may well be that he's just not focussing on you leading him. I'd be doing some extensive ground work if that was the case, getting his focus and ensuring that he has utmost respect for you on the ground before transferring this to the saddle.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

What do you mean "its gotten so bad i can barely walk him in the saddle"?

I have never met any horse that couldnt walk under saddle. I think itd be best if you have him checked over by professionals before seeking training advice. Maybe he needs a different farrier, chiropractic work, or maybe he has a neurological disorder that is causing this. You need to rule out any possible health related issues before progressing his training.

Is he weaker at some point in his body? Front, backend etc? 

Getting mouthy and not listening could be a sign of pain. Your horse is trying to tell you something, you need to listen.

Id be calling my vet. Yesterday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Sydda said:


> Thanks for the Reply! We're working on the lounging thing. The whip terrifies him, and we don't have access to a round pen or help from others. (We board at a really cheap, convienent place, but they have no facilities, just a big field). Do you have any advice for this?


If the whip terrifies him, you've got a great opportunity for some desensitization work. 
Start by patting him all over with your hand, then gradually introduce a short whip, just rub him all over his body with the whip until he relaxes. Gradually building up to a Dressage whip, and then a lunge whip. Do it over a number of sessions and take it really easy. If a horse is particularly scared of something, I will always make it my mission to address that issue if safely possible. Fear of a whip is a major one, and is so easily overcome. 

As for lack of space, is it possible to fence off a flat corner of a paddock? It will make things so much easier for you and the horse if you have a visual barrier when lunging. I only take my horses out into an arena to lunge when they have mastered walk, trot, canter and halt perfectly to my voice, in the round yard.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

CLaPorte432 said:


> What do you mean "its gotten so bad i can barely walk him in the saddle"?
> 
> I have never met any horse that couldnt walk under saddle. I think itd be best if you have him checked over by professionals before seeking training advice. Maybe he needs a different farrier, chiropractic work, or maybe he has a neurological disorder that is causing this. You need to rule out any possible health related issues before progressing his training.
> 
> ...


When i say i can't ride him at the walk, i mean he trips and stumbles so much that i constantly feel like we're both going to be on the ground. Granted, the pasture is hilly in some places, but he does it everywhere. We got him 4 weeks ago, like i said, and he had complete look over by the vet. She did all kinds of tests, including flexing his legs before having me trot with him on the lead line. She said he was just unbalanced when he stumbled once and never told me what to do about it.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

CLaPorte432 said:


> What do you mean "its gotten so bad i can barely walk him in the saddle"?
> 
> 
> Getting mouthy and not listening could be a sign of pain. Your horse is trying to tell you something, you need to listen.
> ...


When i say i can't ride him at the walk, i mean he trips and stumbles so much that i constantly feel like we're both going to be on the ground. Granted, the pasture is hilly in some places, but he does it everywhere. We got him 4 weeks ago, like i said, and he had complete look over by the vet. She did all kinds of tests, including flexing his legs before having me trot with him on the lead line. She said he was just unbalanced when he stumbled once and never told me what to do about it.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

What are his feet looking like? If the toe is too long, that may well be a cause of his tripping.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Kayty said:


> If the whip terrifies him, you've got a great opportunity for some desensitization work.
> Start by patting him all over with your hand, then gradually introduce a short whip, just rub him all over his body with the whip until he relaxes. Gradually building up to a Dressage whip, and then a lunge whip. Do it over a number of sessions and take it really easy. If a horse is particularly scared of something, I will always make it my mission to address that issue if safely possible. Fear of a whip is a major one, and is so easily overcome.
> 
> As for lack of space, is it possible to fence off a flat corner of a paddock? It will make things so much easier for you and the horse if you have a visual barrier when lunging. I only take my horses out into an arena to lunge when they have mastered walk, trot, canter and halt perfectly to my voice, in the round yard.


Ok, i'll see what i can do, thank you so much for the advice!


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## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

Sydda said:


> When i say i can't ride him at the walk, i mean he trips and stumbles so much that i constantly feel like we're both going to be on the ground. Granted, the pasture is hilly in some places, but he does it everywhere. We got him 4 weeks ago, like i said, and he had complete look over by the vet. She did all kinds of tests, including flexing his legs before having me trot with him on the lead line. She said he was just unbalanced when he stumbled once and never told me what to do about it.


I agree with Katy, My horse was always tripping, it was due to long toes. 
not long as in he needs a trim, but long as in his toes were stretched forward.
I like Pete Ramey. I do his trims now, and never again had anymore tripping or the horses not being sure footed. 

On another note, because your horses hasn't been ridden and worked, he is probly out of shape and will need to be brought back to condition slowly, don't over do it 
Good luck.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Spotted said:


> I agree with Katy, My horse was always tripping, it was due to long toes.
> not long as in he needs a trim, but long as in his toes were stretched forward.
> I like Pete Ramey. I do his trims now, and never again had anymore tripping or the horses not being sure footed.
> 
> ...


How do i know if he has long toes? My old horse was an Arabian and his hooves looked completely different from my Paints. I'm sure that sounds like a stupid question, but i've never really had this problem before


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Pop a photo up here, or consult a farrier.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Kayty said:


> Pop a photo up here, or consult a farrier.


I will do that tomorrow first thing after school. Thank you so much for your help, you have no idea how greatful i am!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

No problems at all


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Sydda said:


> How do i know if he has long toes? My old horse was an Arabian and his hooves looked completely different from my Paints. I'm sure that sounds like a stupid question, but i've never really had this problem before


No question is a stupid question 

The fact that you ask makes more people receptive to you, and it teaches others


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

What kind of horse is he? What kind of history does he have? I have a horse that was afraid of the whip. I did a lot of positive reinforcement with the whip. See the whip get a treat. I would have his feet looked at and a general going over. Is he just being a trippy lazy guy or is there something neurologic going on. Depending on his history he could improve with conditioning but it could be something more sinister.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

I don't think he has neurological problems, mostly just because at the beginning of our ride, he's generally ok. Maybe Laziness? He's a paint, mostly been a pasture ornament, but he obviously wants to please. I tried to reward him with treats. But he started to get pushy and nipped at me all the time. He's extremely buddy sour! If he doesn't see the other horses though, he's a perfect gentlemen. He responds ok without getting treats, but I wish I could give them to him without all the attitude! I think I confuse him a lot though because I think he just hasn't ever been asked to do simple things (Trot on the lead rope, lounge with a whip) I'm trying to figure out how to make riding worth his while so he'll listen better. Next weekend I'm going to see if my parents will take us to a trail and see how he does when he's not around the other horses. I just need to work on his balance first so I won't worry about him tumbling down the hills!


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Something else that may help, after ensuring his feet are done well is pole work. If you have access to ground poles (if your barn doesn't have any buy some PVC pipes from a hardware store, really cheap). Set them up around an area for him to walk over, this will help teach him to pick his feet up when he walks- make him focus on where his feet are landing. It'll make him more aware of his feet in general. I do agree though to ensure it's just laziness, not any underlying neurological issue.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

I've been using some old fallen tree limbs to have him step over and there's this big cement block in the middle of our pasture (I have no idea why) that I've been having him step up on. It's about six inches off the ground. Ive been doing this because He has trouble loading into the trailer. Again, I believe this is just confusion because he's never been asked to do it nor did he appear frieghtened or disobedient, simply unsure of what I wanted from him. He steps up with ease now and he lifts his feet on command now. I often portray him as a bad horse and he absolutely is NOT. I will speak to my parents about seeing the vet, however money is tight and Scout is not due for a check up until December. As I mentioned before he just saw the vet, could a problem occur so soon?


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Neurological issues can be caused by a number of factors, but it may not be neurological it could also be muscular. For something to have occurred this quickly I'd say it's caused by a deficiency or toxicity in his diet. Was he always this unbalanced or has he gotten progressively worse? I suppose you ought to just watch him to see if he's getting better or worse. If he just stays the same he's probably just lazy or uncoordinated. If he gets worse there's something wrong. 
What is his current diet? Are there any plants in his field that you don't recognize or do recognize as potentially bad? Some plants can cause muscular issues like stumbling and tripping. There are so many aspects to look at, but I'd rule out general laziness first


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## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

Sydda said:


> I've been using some old fallen tree limbs to have him step over and there's this big cement block in the middle of our pasture (I have no idea why) that I've been having him step up on. It's about six inches off the ground. Ive been doing this because He has trouble loading into the trailer. Again, I believe this is just confusion because he's never been asked to do it nor did he appear frieghtened or disobedient, simply unsure of what I wanted from him. He steps up with ease now and he lifts his feet on command now. I often portray him as a bad horse and he absolutely is NOT. I will speak to my parents about seeing the vet, however money is tight and Scout is not due for a check up until December. As I mentioned before he just saw the vet, could a problem occur so soon?


Sounds like he has been learning alot, and is interested in learning, I think your doing great! can't wait to see those hooves tomorrow, so we can tell you wether or not they are an issue  
a side shot, under the hoof and a front picture will be great


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Punks, be REALLY careful with PVC poles if they are hollow. If a horse steps on them they can spliter and go straight through a leg. Wood is much safer!


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

It might be the diet change. At his old home, he was given grain and hay once a day, but here, the grass is so rich he doesn't need anything else. I don't think he's eating anything toxic because there are 8 other horses out there with him and as far as I can tell, they don't seem to have any issues balancing. (Sometimes the herd decides to run around, it's the prettiest thing I think I've ever seen.) could his balance have anything to do with his weight gain? He has unlimited access to the grass right now, and he has noticeably gained weight. I need him to though because when all the grass dies this winter and all he has is hay he has to fight with the other horses to get, he will need that fat.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Kayty said:


> Punks, be REALLY careful with PVC poles if they are hollow. If a horse steps on them they can spliter and go straight through a leg. Wood is much safer!


See, I've always thought that!! That always so worried me, but more and more every barn around me is using PVC poles! Maybe because they're lighter? But I work at 4 different barns that all have PVC poles and never had an issue - not to say one couldn't happen. The rescue I work at though just uses wood pence posts (the round ones that have 1 flat side) so the flat side will prevent it from rolling too much if it get's kicked. I like that aspect.


Sydda, two things, yes weight gain can cause balance issues - how much weight has he gained? You want to be seriously careful about him gaining too much weight Cushing's disease is just far too common in horses. If you could post some pics of when you first got him and some of him now? There are many serious issues that can arrive from gaining too much weight too quickly and from being overweight too long. Also, hay is _vital_ during the winter, he needs constant access to it and if you think he won't be able to have his proper portion you need to work something out with the barn owner about potentially cutting off a portion of the paddock for just him or him and a sharing friend. I think pictures will help a great deal  I'm guessing by his weight gain you don't supplement his grass with any grain or ration balancer? It could be something is lacking from his diet, but again there are SO many possibilities it's really not easy to say via the internet. Are the other horses boarded with him provided with any grain or ration balancer?


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks for the tip, my dad and I were thinking of making home made jumps for fun and to get Scouts mind going again and we were going to use PVC pipe because its so light and will easily knock over. Is that ok or should we just use wood?


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

The other horses owners are comepletely MIA. I've seen one owner since I brought him home show up once. To give you an idea, when we got him, you could see the outline of his last four ribs. You can't see them anymore. I know how terrible weight gain can be from my first horse. He got laminitis due to being to fat for his little hooves. I will resort to a grazing muzzle if need be, but I think his weight will be under control once I can ride him regularly. It's kind of a vicious circle because if the weight tai is the problem then I can't get any riding done until his balanced is fixed which can't get done until he looses weight! I'm sure ill figure out something. I'm trying to construct a round pen. Maybe separating him from the grass at night or parts of the day and giving him hay in replacement of that?


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I added a bit at the end of my last one late, sorry, but then my 10 mins was up so I couldn't add the answer to your question there:
I'd stick with wood if you can, they're about $12 each for round wood pence posts at a hardware store. I'd also avoid jumps until he's very balanced, but ground poles will help him learn to be more balanced - more aware of where his feet are.

Everything you just said sounds wonderful! That really sounds like it would be a great answer. It would also give him a safe place away from the other horses.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I'd say its popular because they're so light. However if you get specially made poles, designed to be jumping poles the PVC is probably made a lot stronger than your standard PVC bought at a hardware store. If you get them, try to buy the very thick PVC, with narrow poles. That way if they do break, you're not going to have a horse get its hoof stuck inside the tube. 
I have seen this occur before, and heard of a few instances as well. 

Wooden poles are preferable, they are less likely to be knocked off the jump wings and won't break if they are stepped on. 
Again, the custom made PVC jumps are going to be much stronger than standard PVC pipes, but are much more expensive.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks guys! I will deffinitly stay away from jumps until we ge his balanced taken care of. I'll post before and after pictures as well as the pictures of his hooves tomorrow. How long should I wait before calling the vet? I plan on riding him as often as possible, so I should get a pretty good feeling by next weekend. Is that too long of a wait?


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

P.S.- I looked at your website, Kayty! Those are extremely well done drawings. If you're the one who drew them then you are amazingly talented!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Thank you Sydda, yes those are all of my drawings, my passion right up there with horses


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Scouts Hooves! I only took pictures of two of them, his front right and his hind right.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

The pictures where he is wearing a red halter are the ones from before we got him. The ones with the blue halter are the ones we took today.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Scout's winter coat his also coming in, so it might be kind of hard to see him for his actual weight. When we first got him we had the cinch on the saddle as tight as it would possibly go, we've had to move it down three holes now. i don't know if that helps you, but it was all i could think of that might be a better gage of his weight.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Toes look a touch longer than what I like, but not so bad that they should contribute heavily to his tripping. Is he lazy when you lead and ride him? If he's just dragging his feet along the ground then he's going to trip. Perhaps try asking him for a bit more energy, carry a Dressage whip with you and give him a little flick on his hindquarters if he doesn't move immediately off your leg. You may find that just getting him moving along a little more actively will solve your problem.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

When I first got my OTTB, he was so clumsy, I couldn't believe he raced successfully. I took him trail riding in places where he had to pick and choose the best places to put his feet, and let him figure it out. He stumbled quite a few times and one day it just suddenly occurred to him that he was responsible for himself and not me. He hasn't tripped much since. He is now more a like a mountain goat, able to pick his way through anything, and has become so smart about footing.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

If you can- can you hand walk him through some rooty woods? That's a great idea Puck! I think hand walking them would help first too, then riding them through it once they've got their own balance. If not stick ground poles or even small logs that have no branches of all different sizes. If they're too big dig them into the ground a little, so he has to step over it - not jump. 

His feet look due, but not overdue in my opinion, shouldn't at all be contributing to his tripping. One of the hooves has a mark on it though? Is that a hole? Possibly where an abscess burst through? What is that mark? Are you being ridiculously cautious to keep that seriously clean and dry if it is a hole? What has your farrier sad about that? That concerns me a great deal.

As for his weight, not a huge difference, he just looks full now. While this shouldn't be contributing to him being clumsy it could be making him just a little more lazy  I agree with trying to see if you can get him doing a more lively walk. There's a working walk and a relaxed walk, he should be working- the way to see the difference (besides the speed) is the horse's head should bob up and down when working walk. If his head bobs up and down at the trot he's lame though - so please mark the difference xD


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Ok, so yesterday when I worked with him I took him over a branch at a walk about 5 times. He did fantastic! He seemed to learn every time to pick his feet up more. I decided to see how he would do at the trot. First 2 times- perfect. He looked like he'd been doing it his entire life. I figured we'd take baby steps so I was only going to do it one more time. However, this time he stumbled. I think he was just annoyed! I took him away from the other horses where he could see them. By a fence separated him from them. He wasn't nearly as lazy and seemed to pay more attention to me! The branch was kind of uneven so I think he just wasn't expecting it to be so high (2 inches off the ground, maybe.). As for the thing on its hoof, it's mud or just a discoloration, I think. I check his hooves daily and I've never noticed any holes. I will be sure to check it thoroughly tomorrow though. He's also thrown both front horseshoes. (He only had them on for about two weeks) could this have affected his balance? Thanks so much for the advice guys! Where I board, there's really no other horse people to ask!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Glad to hear things went so well!! Yes loosing shoes does change their balance, is there a reason he's wearing shoes at all? Does his feet wear out fast? 

Are you sure this is just mud? The more I look at it the more I see a hole









If it is in fact a hole, call your farrier, check for white line disease - if it is that, it's just a bacterial infection on the white line. It's easy to treat, just annoying, but could be affecting his balance too. Our TB who had it, they shaved away the infected part of his hoof and we washed it twice a day with hydrogen peroxide and kept it dry - fairly easy steps to follow. His hoof is still growing out but he was never unsound with it either.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

I'm really trying to get my parents to take us to a trail. Slight delima: we have one horse, so I would have to ride by myself. Being 14, my parents think I will die, get lost, fall and severely injure myself, or hurt Scout. I understand their thinking so I'm not going to push them too much on that. If scout starts listening better they might agree as long as I call them ever ten minutes
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Hehe, I get that, don't worry about that then, using branches with no sticks poking out to get hurt on or ground poles or fence posts for him to step over are all great alternatives


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

We are for sure going to take him to an arena or open field some time to work him far away from the other horses! I will check on his hoof tomorrow, and get back to you on what's going on with him! I plan on getting an English saddle soon so he doesn't injure himself when he gets started jumping. Will this effect his balance? He's not really had much experience (if any) with English riding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

What do you currently ride him in? Are you sure the tack fits - that could affect his balance, are you leading or riding him when he stumbles? With or without tack?
It will of course change his balance to have a different saddle on, but if the fit is better or it's less weight it may improve his coordination. Do you know how to train a horse to direct rein? Have you got a trainer helping you?
Please do NOT try to train this horse to jump without a quality trainer helping you - even seriously great riders should have someone on the ground to help guide and advise them when it comes to jumping. For safety as well as just having a set of eyes on the ground to help figure things out.
Jumping in an English saddle is ideal as they're designed to accommodate that.
Does the horse direct rein or are you neck reining him? What bit are you using?


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

I want to do do the training myself, however I am NOT willing to risk either of our safeties so I've asked a family friend who is a professional trainer to teach me to teach him and help me with him. He uses a d-ring bit that's not very harsh at all. His saddle is western and he uses direct rein (apparently he knows how to neck rein, but I don't! I'm an English rider.) he stumbles on the lead rope and in the saddle or on the lead rope with someone on his back. His head does not bob when he walks so I guess he's just lazy! I have an English bridle on him right now (we look like dorks with a western saddle and an English bridle, but hey, whatever works!!!) and I plan on starting from scratch in introducing the English saddle to him. Once we have a round pen (my parents finally agreed to build one!!! Yay us!!!) I plan on using the SCEA training videos as a guide. You can look them up on YouTube, I think it's just Parelli! I haven't ever done any serious riding on him so I figured I should know what sets him off before trying to canter him!
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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

This all sounds good - I think you should do some quality research on bits, of course if he's happy in the snaffle just leave it. But bits are a huge aspect of life with horses - they're also really neat 
If his head does not bob at the walk he is being very lazy  Get him working. Honestly this sounds like a lazy horse more than anything else. I would avoid cantering him as well until all has been worked out. 

I am a HUGE advocate for people training their horses themselves - at the same time though you still need to be taught how  
Does the horse know how to direct rein well or are you and he just fudging it?

Here's how I teach horses to direct rein:
On the ground I'll stand at their shoulder with them bridled with the reins over their head. I'll hold one rein with my hand rested on their whither, with just a tiny bit of pressure on the rein and wait. Horses who don't know what to do will fuss with the bit, try to pull away or ignore it. I'll give them a chance, if they continue to ignore the pressure I'll gradually increase it. The moment they turn even an inch in the direction of the rein pull I'll release and give them a rub. I'll repeat this pulling both reins one at a time, standing on both sides, pulling toward and away from you. Practice this until just a tiny ounce of pressure get him to turn his head all the way around to their sides. Then practice all this over again while mounted - should be much faster this time 

That looks like a great training source, but don't limit yourself to one style! Go to the bookstore or library and read every book you can find!


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Thank you so much!! He direct reigns fairly well because his old owners did it with him, but I might try to use your technique just to make him softer. My dad wants a more aggresive bit because he thinks scout doesn't listen to me well enough. I however, believe that the other horses are distracting him and that I'm not being firm enough. I have a very small voice that doesn't really do assertive so my old trainer told me to make up for it by being aggresive. That's a big problem for me, but I'm working on getting more pushy with him. I will happily read and do more research. My mom tells me to trust my gut because I'm generally really good with cats and dogs, but I think horses are a completely different ball game so I try to only use techniques others recommend. Currently I'm using my own little technique that kind of works. Scout likes the sound of my voice so I sing and tell him stories- all the time. Whenever I want him to do something I stop and ask him to do so. Once he does it a pat him and continue singing (generally Disney songs because those are the only ones I know by heart) or talking to him about my day. His ears always flick towards my when I talk and this also helps me calm him down when he gets nervous around chainsaw and four wheelers (distractions that are nearly constant where I board, neither of us are too find of them.) again I must thank you for all your guys's advice! Scouts my everything and I want to make sure I don't do anything to her him or lose his trust.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

That's got to be the sweetest thing I've heard in a long time <3

Well here are some fun other ideas you can do with him. While I don't agree with being aggressive, you do want to be in charge - if for not other reason than your safety. He should be paying attention to you at all times. But to be completely honest, stronger bits don't make that happen, better training does.
Yes what I suggested with the bit training will definitely teach him to soften up!

Here's some other things you can do to gain his respect without pain or force:
Teach him to be comfortable with you rubbing him everywhere, start on his neck where he's comfortable and rub your way all the way around him. If you find a spot he's not comfortable with you near slowly work away from it to where he was comfortable and slowly work your way back over to it, rinse and repeat until he's comfortable being rubbed everywhere. I say rub, not pat or scratch - most horses don't like pats (like slaps) until they're used to it, scratches are good in some spots but not good for sensitive areas, but a firm, gentle rub will do the trick. Be careful not to be tickling him though, press fairly firmly.

Once he's comfortable with you rubbing him everywhere you can practice teaching him to yield his body to pressure. 
I start with teaching them to back up - I'll stand in front and a little to one side of the horse (if they were to spook and jump forward I wouldn't be in the path) Holding the lead rope, with a flat halter. Then I'll take a step toward the horse, say "Back up" firmly, at the same time as bringing the lead rope back behind their chin, in a way that applies pressure on their nose. If they do nothing I gradually increase the pressure, if needed I'll apply soft pressure on their chest too. To start with, if they even lean back a little I'll release the pressure and rub out their nose then start again. I'll do this until the horse is backing up with me just stepping into their space.

Next I'll work on yielding their hind end. I'll apply gentle pressure with the tips of my four fingers on the firm part of their hind end (not the soft part where the spiral is). With just gentle pressure I'll wait, if they try to walk forward or back up I'll just keep the pressure the same, if they ignore it I'll gradually increase the pressure. When they move their hind end over I'll release and rub out the spot. You should do this until he's able to circle his hind end around his stationary front end.

Then I'll do the same thing for the front end, applying pressure just behind the point of the shoulder. Then I'll teach them to move directly over (side pass) by applying pressure where my heel would land while riding. Don't relieve pressure unless they move directly over, if you relieve when they go forward of backwards they'll think that's what you want.

The other thing I teach is the 'put your head down' cue. I do this by applying pressure on the horse's poll, using the lead rope attached to the halter, pulling straight down so the pressure is on the poll, not the nose. Applying gentle pressure and gradually increasing as always. In this you're looking for the horse to put their head straight down. Eventually you want them to touch their nose to the ground with just gentle pressure - ideally do this where there is no grass so he's not just eating 
I teach this skill, especially to nervous horses, because it helps shift them out of 'flight mode' - if their head is up they're searching for danger, if it's down they're relaxed - so putting their head down when they're upset helps calm them.

All these skills are fantastic for getting your horse's respect and all the time you spend with him will also build a great bond 
All these skills will also help you with his riding making him more responsive to pressure all over!
Have fun!


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

I've been working on yielding the hindquarters and now I only have to walk towards his rear end with the rope expanded and he moves away. He knows that if I run my hand over his body, I don't want him to move and he'll stay perfectly still, but if I move towards his hip with the rope hell move without me having to tough him. I've tried doing the same thing with the for quarters, but he just backs up. We were having a huge problem with trotting in hand so I would pull really hard on the lead rope and then use the extra to smack the back of MY legs to make the sound. That usually got him to move, but if not I'd tap him with it. Is there any nicer way to get him to trot or even walk some days? I don't want him to fear the lead rope or associate the halter with being "smacked" I use quotation marks because I refuse to do anything more then the slightest tap. The source I got this information from said to smack him- hard. I think this is too harsh and I don't want him to fear me, just respect me. He's gotten much better and I haven't really even had to touch either of us in awhile, but he has bad days and good days.
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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

That's fantastic to hear you're working on all this. But here's what I see:

- Horses naturally move away from fluid motion objects, so a swinging rope is just instinctive for a horse to move away from, he should move away if you're applying pressure too. Your body language is what tells him whether or not to move away when you just want to pet him. Standing up tell, shoulders up, confident and firm, taking a strong step toward him while you apply pressure - this means Move Over! If you're just standing with soft body language and rubbing, stand still.  The horse needs to respect you, not the rope. 

As for him backing up when you ask for him to move his front end over - you're too far forward. Moving the front end is the hardest, too far forward makes them back up - too far back makes them go forward.

As for trotting. There are multiple ways to do this, honestly I find it comes most from a horse's desire to want to be near you - but there are ways to make it happen otherwise. When you're ready to trot, don't just walk forward and pull on his face - this is just all sorts of unclear to him. Pick up your attitude, get really excited, start jogging in place, saying "TTRRRROOOT!!" in a big, excited voice, and if still no response you want to swing the rope behind you so it hits his side, where your legs would be in the saddle. Gradually increase this pressure until he trots, even one step of a trot should be met with a release of pressure. In this case, let him stop moving for a minute or two and rub him somewhere he likes, then start again. If each time you start with the least amount of pressure possible and slowly increase until he listens he'll learn to just go with the gentle cues - so you don't need to get stronger. 

Sounds like you are doing great!!


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

I showed the picture to my dad and the more we look at it, the more we are concerned. We will be out there ASAP and he promised to call the ferrier if it is a hole. He's been extremely wired about me picking that hoof and there was a pebble in it last time, so I figured that was what was up. Now I think I might not have noticed the hole. As for the rope, I'm not swinging it, and simply and extended hand will cause him to move. He's much better in his left side then his right side, probably because I constantly forget to work both sides of him. Here's a very random question, but I just got back from seeing a horse show and I was wondering if you could give me advice on how to teach a horse to bow? is it similar just to moving their head to the ground as you mentioned previously?
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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm very glad you're going to check out that hoof - don't worry too much, if what I see is what I think it is it doesn't look bad - you just want it to stay clean and dry. A farrier will tell you whether or not it's something to be concerned about. You should ask your farrier whether or not he really needs shoes too - the only horse I've ever found to _need_ shoes was one who worked on pavement - or horses who work long or hard on a regular basis. But it completely depends on the horse so ask your farrier.

As for bowing  Oh boy do I know how!!

I personally started like you with Natural Horsemanship - while it's a wonderful training style and my horses have come very far with it - I personally have found much faster and more effective results with Clicker Training - and I've been able to teach them SO much more than I ever imagined!
I have a pony who's too small to ride that I've taught to do obstacle courses, like dog agility. My mare has overcome her fears using Clicker Training. They're both learned to follow targets, to bow, give kisses and hugs, to target my fist, and a whole pile of other fun things!! This is how I got my mare to trot with me without any leading or force.

Clicker training is a fantastic style that relies completely on Positive reinforcement. What we've been talking about so far is negative reinforcement, we apply something negative and remove it when we get the correct response - where as with clicker training we add something positive when we get the correct response. There's also negative punishment (adding something negative when they do something bag) and Positive punishment (removing something positive when they do something bad).

You'll probably hear a million and a half people say "never give your horse treats, they learn to mug you and be rude" this is true - unless you train them a better way to get the treats out of you 

Here's what I do:
My horses are both respectful so I don't need to worry about any aggressive responses, I'm assuming your horse is the same given your previous descriptions.
I start with a cup full of tiny pieces of carrot tied onto my belt. I'll hold a treat in my hand, just by my side, but where they know I've got it. The horse will proceed to sniff you, nose you, nudge you, wiggle his nose on your hand, anything they can think of - if they start to get to pushy just move away, I'll add a growl or a "knock it off" if they get too much. If you find he's being honestly too much, do this from the other side of the fence to begin with so he can't actually knock you over or hurt you. Then the MOMENT the very split second he turns his head away - it doesn't matter why - you click and give the treat. I personally use a smooch noise I make with my mouth, not a clicker, so I don't have to carry the silly thing around. The click/smooch is vital, that is the "yes" answer - it bridges the thing they did with the reward, it also buys you time to get the treats later in their training. I also feed the treat arm's length away with my hand behind their chin so they need to back up a bit to get it - this reinforces your requirement for personal space.
Do this for about 5-10 minutes, then leave, come back a while later and do it again - I guarantee the horse will have made a huge stride between the end of your last session and the beginning of the next - they really do think about what they've done when we leave. They want that treat and they're trying to figure out what they did to get it. 
Once the horse has sufficiently learned that the only way to get the treat from you is by standing patiently and looking away you can start working on other tricks. Always keep your sessions short, sweet and frequent.

My next 'trick' is actually a skill that you can use to teach _anything_. It's Targeting. I use a riding crop with a colorful duct tape decoration on the end, so it's more visible for my horse. I hold it out, most horses will sniff if out of curiosity - my mare was actually terrified of it. For her I needed to touch the crop to her nose, then immediately click and treat before she jumped away. In 5 minutes she was following the crop all around to touch it to get the treat. My pony figured this skill out incredibly fast, he'll stretch all the way up, almost on his tippy toes to reach it xD 

Once they are successfully targetting you can use the target to teach them anything. I used it to teach back up, follow, to go onto trailers, to put their head down, to bow, to go over jumps, through tubes, weaving cones - anything you can think of!! 

There are some great videos on youtube on clicker training horses, these are the ones I learned from:
Video 1 That link has 3 great videos, it even explains how to use the skill while mounted !!
After using CT I've found my horses are so thrilled to see me - both of them run up to me in the field and don't leave my side until I close the gate behind me  As soon as they realize it's time for another training session they get so excited too! They _want_ to figure out what I want them to do - they _want_ _to learn!!
_Here's another great one! This one shows the amazing stuff you can teach your horse with just a click and a treat - you may really appreciate some of it being an english rider 




This ones another great one!!




There are so many!!


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Wow! I will try that with him! Does t matter what my target is? I mean, can it be smaller then a crop, like a pencil? I'm just trying to think of things that I wouldn't mind hauling around the 60 acres of o-so-delicious grass that is up to my knees getting the dang animal to save that grueling, daily trip for me would be awesome! But Im hoping that will come with time! I've used clicker training with dogs (I'm an animal freak and I help out at the local pet adoption center) is it the same concept? Scout learns ridiculously fast which is nice for me because I'm not a fan of repetition, but it means I have to think up all sorts of new things to keep him from getting bored. This also means he picks up bad habits really fast which is why I had to stop treating him in the past, but I'll try your way and see if stops being so pushy! Do you recommend any specific treats? I'm a fan of using apples and carrots, stuff I would put into my own body, but the kind you buy in a bag is much more convenient and now that harvesting season is nearly over, much less expensive. Oh ya, and the dork HATES carrots. I don't know why, but he spits them out! Oh well, I'm not a big fan of them either! 
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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Yes it's very similar to dogs - the timing needs to be perfect to begin with - eventually the timing of the click matter more than the treat because they know the click means a treat.
I use about 2-3 large carrots cut into tiny bits, the more pieces you have the more times you can reward him. But if he doesn't like carrots you'll need to find something better. You could try apples but those are awfully sticky when cut up. I also use Hay Stretcher pellets or celery or anything else you can think of. I'd avoid anything sugary because you don't want to get him too hyped up.

You do need to be careful to _always_ enforce the idea of personal space, he should never get a treat if he invades your space, when he does the right thing you click and treat away from you and even make him move backwards to get it. 
As for the target, yes it can be anything, eventually I teach my horses to target my hand with their shoulder, so if I put out and outstretched hand they'll keep their shoulder matched up with it, if I run they'll trot or even canter to keep up, if I start pushing into them it means turn away, if I pull away it means turn toward me. You could use your fist if you wanted, but honestly crops I find to be the best because you can use it stretched a foot or so away from your body, to make them reach all the way up or down between their front legs and all. 

Just remember to enforce personal space, remember to always use the click bridge and always have fun!! Remember short, frequent sessions are best with a few minutes away to think about what he just learned.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Ok, so Scouts hoof seems to have just gotten nicked. It's chipped but doesn't appear to be infected and we've decided to wait on the fairier. I made a discovery today though that in currently blaming on pure laziness. Scout is a perfect gentlemen at a walk, he backs, yeilds his hind quarts, even lunges at a working walk, but as soon as I ask for more effort by coaxing him into a trot or if someone is tossed up into his back, he becomes a demon horse!! He tosses his head, tries to nip whoever his handling him, and when I asked for trot while lunging him, he tried to kick out. Is he really just being lazy?? He runs full speed to the other horses, so I doubt moving his actually hurting him. As soon as I slow him down or the rider hops off, his ears flick forward and he goes back to being the praise- seeking, puppy dog like horse he usually is. How do I fix this??? Like I said, he acts perfectly fine until I ask him to put forth more effort! Am I confusing him? Does he just have a bad attitude after not being worked very hard for a few weeks? Also, he's doing really great over the poles and I'm going to set up an obstacle course on Tuesday for him to figure out!!! He's not mean as long as I'm just grooming or leading him around at a walk without a rider.
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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

As long as you're certain that he has no pain anywhere -check saddle fit, bridle etc. 
Then I'd say you're right - he's lazy and he's learned to get away with it. When he gets cranky, the WORST thing you can do is take the pressure off - this will make it worse. If you ask him to move faster, and he puts up a fight, you make sure he **** well goes faster no matter what. As soon as he gives in and speeds up, go back to pretending nothing happened and go along on your merry way. 
He'll learn that its harder to put up a fight, than to just put a little bit more energy in.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Ok, today he was fighting while my mom and I were riding bareback just being walked around by each other, so I don't really think its the fit of his tack. So I should just kick and kick until he starts to trot? The thing is, he will trot at just the slightest touch, but he tries to throw whoever a on him! It's even worse if you ask him for a canter! My mom has the bruises in her thighs from slamming into the pommel as he bucked. Granted, she gives him his head much more then I do and he behaves worse with her then he does with me (probably because I'm the one he spends the most time with and generally knows what he's going to try before he does it) but he still gives me a fight! Would it be better to take him to an arena where he can't see the other horses?
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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

It sounds like he really needs someone to get on him and give him a 'go forward or else!' lesson. 
How experienced and confident a rider are you? Unless you are super confident and have an excellent sense of feel and balance, I wouldn't do it yourself.

Kicking him in the ribs won't help - investing in a Dressage whip will. 
I give only 3 chances to my horses to respond to my aid. If they don't, all hell breaks loose until they give me a reaction. Ask nicely first, just squeezing your calves on him for a moment. If he doesn't react, then give a small, sharp kick. If he still doesn't go forward, then I do not hesitate to bring the horse's head around slightly to the inside, and give them a good crack over the backside to say "I **** WELL MEAN IT!". I bring the head a little to the inside so that if he bucks, you can take his head around and control it. 

It really does sound to me that he's just a bit arrogant and a "make me" type of horse, by the behaviour you are describing. And with these horses, there is little point in pussy footing around. In fact, in my opinion and what has worked for me, it is FAR kinder on a horse to tell them sharply and in no uncertain terms once or twice, and have them then understand and respond to a light aid, than to be forever thudding your legs against his ribs. That makes for an unhappy horse, and an unhappy rider. It's not fair on either of you.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

I have super flexy heels that give me a pretty good seat, add to that that we ride western and always have something grab into, I would say I have a pretty decent seat. I'm also a bit of a spoiled brat and I'm not too fond of not getting my way, so I generally don't let him win these little battles. I will do a thorough check of him to make sure nothing could possibly be hurting him because this really isn't like my horse! How long do I make him continue being good before I let him go back to his walking? Should I keep my rides short and sweet, or do I work him until he's a sweaty mess, but obedient? Also, what do I do about the nipping? My dad smacks him, which I will if I must, but I'd rather give him a chance to fix what he's doing before I have to go to such measures!
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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I wouldn't allow him to do his slow walk. Change his thinking - make him think that a more energetic walk is far more comfortable than a slow walk. Thats what training is all about. So when he slows down, ask him to speed up, and when he stays at a more energetic tempo, leave him alone. We should never support the horse with our aids, only ask, tell and remind. You don't want to fall into the trap of keeping your leg on constantly - you will just dull him to your aids. 
Get the reaction, then leave him alone. Allow him to make the mistake of slowing down, so that you can remind him to speed up. 

Training is 25% physical, 75% mental. You want to work the brain, and the body will follow. So while trying to establish something basic like response and respect to the leg - keep the sessions short. Even just 10 minutes a day. To start with it might take longer, don't finish the session until you can end on a good note - a good note being him not having a tantrum when you put your leg on, and actually moving forward. 
This should progressively take less time, until he will decide to simply stay at that more energetic pace, than drag his feet. THEN you can start to add more work and lengthen your sessions. 
But basically, that is how much training works. If I'm trying to teach and establish something new, I don't care if my ride is only 10 minutes, as long as the horse understands and accepts it. Then we'll increase the session length to work on the body, before introducing something else.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Do you suppose his nipping will get better as we work the laziness out of him?
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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Sorry, I forgot to address the nipping. 

I think overall, he lacks respect. The fact that he has a tantrum about going forward, and the nippyness is a pretty clear indication of that. 
Try going back and doing some groundwork with him. Nipping is something that should not be tolerated from a horse, as it can turn into biting and become dangerous. I have a friend who was bitten by his otherwise lovely gelding - it bit off his full lower lip. 
Another friend was bitten over a fence by a stallion. It grabbed her by the shoulder and threw her. 

My horses know very well that I won't accept nipping of any form. They get warned once with a firm 'AHH' and a threatening movement of my body towards them. If they try and make contact, or if they DO make contact, they think they're going to die for about 3 seconds. 
My 2 year old used to be quite mouthy, now he very much knows his place. We still have cuddles, he's not remotely head shy (I can steer him around by grabbing his ears!!) but if he goes to nip, even playfully, he corrects himself before I even need to look at him.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

So here are my thoughts - while yes, he needs to be made to do it - you ARE in charge and that hasn't been made clear yet. He'll do what you ask at the walk because it's the path of least resistance, not because he actually respects you. So when he's asked to exert more effort he's going to put up a fight - because he thinks he can. So he definitely does need a good solid push to make him behave/respect you.
That being said, I also think your horse is awfully demotivated. He sounds 'used up' in my opinion, how long have you had him and what was his job before you? Was he a lesson horse or pony ride pony? Personally I'd use clicker training to get him trotting. With clicker training I've never had to fight to get a horse to trot, both of them know to be next to me at all times and not lag behind, that's what earns them treats - they'll trot and even canter to keep up with me. I've never had to force it.

How I did that is:
After going through the process of teaching them how to take a treat respectfully, the first video I linked too, the one that's a link not a screen on the page, shows how to do what I explained really well.
After that I'll teach them to target anything, with my mare she targets me outstretched fist, she gets nothing for targetting my fist when it's resting at my side though, so she knows the difference. So I can go to any point in her paddock to start and just stretch out my fist and she'll come running over to start our games. 
I just hold out my fist, when she touches it with her nose I click and treat. I rinse and repeat this until she's moving her head up and down to touch my fist, then I start walking around with my fist out. First she started by waiting for me to go somewhere and stop, then she'd come over, then I started clicking and treating for when she took a few steps with my hand. Eventually she'd follow me all around without leaving, then I started going faster, she just naturally kept up. At first I clicked and treated for a couple steps of trot, now I don't until I get where we're going. 
Honestly I prefer it all this way because she wants to do what I ask, not because otherwise she'll get in trouble or more work/force will be applied - but because _she wants it_.

But if you don't want to take the time to do that the best way is to carry a dressage whip with you while leading, Hold the butt end out so if he swings his head over to bite you he whacks himself with it - when you ask for the trot use the string end to flick him where your leg would be when riding. That's why you should use a dressage whip over anything else - it reaches both sides ideally well. 
While riding use a dressage whip as well, it allows you to flick him right behind your heel without letting go of the reins, if a buck is a possibility that's pretty important.

I'm going to be honest here though - there aren't many horses who would rather buck for more than a minute than just trot for a few minutes - Unless there is a pain issue.
If the saddle doesn't fit correctly it could have made his back sore - then when being asked to trot bareback it could hurt. It could be an anticipation of pain too - where he expects to be in pain whenever the trot starts because of improperly fitting tack. I would seriously check the tack and potentially get a chiropractor out. Does he show any signs of discomfort with firm pressing along his back?

I like to give horses the benefit of the doubt - he's either in pain, in fear of pain, or just sick of it all - so now it's your job to either remove the pain, build his trust that there will be no pain, or make him _want_ to be ridden and move and have fun. If he's being kept away from his friends and made to work - you need to do something especially good to make yourself seem like a better place to be.

ETA: These are some great videos on how to check if your saddle fits appropriately http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/question-does-your-saddle-reeaaalllly-fit-58116/


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Scout was previously barely ridden. If anything, he seems bored to me. I think in addition to not being ridden, he doesn't see the POINT of riding. Is there something I can do so riding becomes as fun for him as it is for me? From his perspective, I am asking him to go from one tree to another and back again while he could be eating! As for doing more groundwork, I plan on starting him from scratch! I don't know exactly how he was handled/trained in the past, so I figured I'd treat him like an unbroken colt who's never been handled before. Basically, run him around a round pen until he decides to listen to me! However, I have no idea when well be building a round pen, so I can't really do that until we construct a round pen with good footing. I just need something that will work until then! It won't have negative effects to approach his training this way, will it?
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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

So my only other thought is that it could be that he is so unbalanced he's afraid of tripping at the trot? I don't know I'm not there - if not that then he's just being a brat.
Either make him with the dressage whip or make him want to with clicker training.

Yes you can make riding as fun for him as for you, with clicker training, I'm sure there are other ways but that's the best way I've found so far  If you need more specifics on how to do anything I've explained feel free to ask.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks so much guys!!!! Your help is very much appreciated!!!!!!! I will feel him out tomorrow and most likely have even more questions!!! Haha, sorry!
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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Do you have space to take him for a good gallop?
Sometimes getting some air in their lungs and wind in their face snaps them out of their grouchy mood. 

I've seen some good results with clicker training, but have yet to see any successful performance horse clicker trained. I would worry about what happens when you NEED to put pressure on the horse and MAKE it do something? And those situations do come up in 'real life' scenarios. I have the same problem with people using food to 'bribe' a horse into a trailer, to make it 'want' to go into the trailer. Then they get stranded somewhere with no food, and the horse won't give to pressure to go into the trainer. 
Its something I'd consider if you want to do a bit of trick training, but I'm not convinced about using the method for general training - but, I have an open mind and am willing to see it in use!!


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

You're right Kayty, personally I use a mix of positive and negative reinforcement. My horse is trained the physical cue which is backed up with the click/treat. 
The problem I see so often if half clicker trained horses. People stop training them half way through. They use the treat as a bribe not a reward. So the horse won't do it without food around. That sort of thing - it comes down to how you do it. If you read my previous post a page or two ago it explains how to do it so you won't encounter those situations, there are also fantastic videos of some people who use clicker training in real life situations and competitive riding. The click/treat just backs up the training, like I've previously mentioned, when they first learn a skill you need to click/treat every time they get close to the right thing - but as the skill gets stronger and you build on it more and more you won't need to click/treat until the very end.

So like my pony - I originally had to C/T whenever his nose touched my crop by accident, then when he did it on purpose, then C/T if he followed the crop, then when he follows the crop through or over an obstacle, now I don't C/T until he's finished the entire obstacle course. He'll follow his target onto a trailer or anywhere I put it regardless of if there's food or not. He'll be more likely to do it repeatedly again and again if there is a reward every so often, but he knows the skill and only needs to be rewarded for doing it exceptionally well or for going above and beyond the skill.

So for your trailer example - if I stand in my trailer shaking a bucket of grain (like how I got my mare in before we started C/T) she fussed over it for about 20 minutes before she lunged in, ate a bite and broke into a miserable panic while the wonderful cowboy I hired tied her fast to the side and slammed the door shut before she exploded. That worked - thank god I'll never have to do that again though.
She knows how to target now and that's how I usually would get her on a trailer, but she's also been trained to give to every sort of pressure - also with clicker training, but I do exactly what NH trainers do except I add a click/treat when she does it, rather than just a release of pressure. 
Clicker trained horses are still trained to respond to all the same cues as any other horse and more - but they get a reward for it. While bribed horses are just bribed, not trained. But I do understand the confusion 

Sydda - I'm very eager to hear what you decide to do with him and how he does


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Thanks for that Punks, I think I understand it more now. I previously saw it as a bribe system which is something I don't agree with.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I did too until I really looked into it. To be honest my horses have never been so happy to see me - and that makes me happy  They're also far more consistently behaved. I don't have to fight for everything anymore - dealing with them is just more enjoyable than ever before.

The reason I really looked into it was because my mare was horrified of leaving her paddock, an open gate and green grass wouldn't get her out. I did all sorts of natural horsemanship with her and after a year of ground work I still couldn't get her out of her gate - a few trainers had found ways to force her out which ended in violent explosions and broken fences. So after a year of failed attempts I started looking for less conventional methods. I worked on clicker training with her for 2 weeks before I had her walking calmly in hand out of her paddock, around my dumpster, touching my 'scary' car with her nose, investigating the neighbor's massive hay field  
I honestly watched the joy on her face when she saw the open field. She just started jumping and squealing, cantering this tiny circle around me, without ever taking the slack out of the lead rope she just danced around me, she was SO happy. To think she'd been missing that all her life out of some silly fear xD Now I can take her all around my property, but I'm still waiting for a friend to take my pony out with us for our first few ventures off property. I've also started her mounted work, now that we've conquered that massive gap in her ground work. She's turning out to be a fantastic ride, patient and happy to do anything I want  My only trouble was that she's been taught to target my outstretched fist, so it's hard to line her up near the fence for me to get on xD but she stands quite patiently for me to leap off the fence and onto her back - for a horse who's only ever had me on her back 4 times she's awfully tolerant. 
So I'm going to work on teaching her to target a welcome mat with her feet - so she'll stay in one place while I get on. That's our next mission  

But again, it's all training and the cues are all the same, just backed up with something she wants


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Due to after school activities, crappy weather, and daylight savings time, we were unable to visit Scout today. However, i don't have school tomorrow (thank you Election Day!) so i can hopefuly go see him. I've purchased a carrot stick with a string so i can have an extension of my arm when i'm out fighting with him, and i've reserved everybook i could find at the library!! (Several of which were on clicker training.) With daylights savings time causing the sun to set at 5:30 now, I might have to start getting my lazy butt out of bed early in the morning to go work with Scout. Does the time of day change how the horse will react to me? i've noticed he's crankier later in the evening as the sun is starting to go down, so do you think he'll be more docile early in the morning? If you guys don't think he'll be any different in the morning, i really see no point in dragging myself out of bed at 4:30 in the morning! Stucco and other after school activites are making it increasingly harder to get up to see him everyday, do i need to be up there religiously every single day, or will he benifit from not being bothered every day?


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Fantastic about the books- as for times of day it depends on the horse. If he's cranky at night he may be tired or busy - horses seem make schedules for themselves and when we interrupt them they can get grouchy - of course we are the herd leader and thus it is our duty to do that  so don't let it stop you, but that's why he's grouchy because he hasn't yet deemed you his leader and you're interrupting his plan.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

So it all come back around to me not being in control, I figured! We'll fix that!


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Oh, i found a saddle i think will work for riding and possibly jumping if we ever get to that, can i get opinions on how it looks?


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Looks nice, but it's only as nice as it's fit honestly  you can use these videos to learn about saddle fit and how to judge whether that saddle fits your horse 
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/question-does-your-saddle-reeaaalllly-fit-58116/


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Ok, I'll throw my 2 cents in on this. Have you ever sat out and watched all 8 of the horses in your field? Do you know who the alpha is? Who the low man on the totem pole is? Have you ever watched when one challenges another for dominance? You can learn SO much from watching how horses react to one another. For example, when one bites a more dominant horse, he gets his tail handed to him. My mare got me good ONE time. And I kid you not, we had a "come to Jesus" meeting. It only took that once and she's never even thought of it again. I've had her for almost 10 years. She is my heart and soul, my best friend, my confidant, my everything. But so help me God if she ever tries to be the dominant mare in this partnership. I know that sounds tough, but horses NEED a leader. They need a buddy second, but leader first, always. There is very little you can do (besides down right beat your horse) that is going to scare them. Your not going to make your horse headshy by smacking him for biting you. That's a whole lot nicer then what a more dominant horse would do!! And your not going to scare him by smacking him with a lead rope, I promise. Unless he's overly sensitive and you go completely ape s**t on him, which I doubt either  You have to learn what habits you will tolerate, and which you wont. A good way to get an idea is to watch the alpha horse and what they put up with, and what they wont. Also, dominant horses push submissive horses around all the time. They make the submissive horse move their feet and get going. Your horse is challenging you by refusing to move his feet (trotting/loping.) It is your JOB to get him going and be the leader he needs and deserves. I promise your horse will be so much happier when you take that role. I cannot count how many times my mare has LITERALLY saved my life. She has caused herself pain to keep me safe. She wouldn't have done that if it was all lollipops and gumdrops and I wasn't her alpha mare. I know it sounds strange, but it's the way they are. As for riding, if he gives you a shred of tude, work his butt off!! Circles, figure 8's, anything and everything you can do, and do it at a strong trot. Don't let him drag his feet. Raise your energy to match his energy. As soon as he submits and does what you ask, release. Let him walk, stand, whatever it is that gets the point across to him. The quicker you release (at the right moment) the quicker he'll put 2 and 2 together. The time of day shouldn't matter, the other horses shouldn't matter. You are the boss, end of discussion. What you say goes. You can have a beautiful partnership with your horse, but it takes work. And it takes you being the boss. Also, you can read all the books you want. But the BEST teacher in the world is standing out in your field  All 8 of em, esp your new gelding  I got my mare for my 13th birthday, I was just a year younger then you. And I'll tell you what, she made your gelding look like a million dollar horse  (not that he isn't a great horse, but you get what I mean.) She was down right ornery and more stubborn then any mule I've ever met! But, we are the perfect pair now. We went on to become a force to recon with in multiple disciplines. You can do this. Just gotta learn the tools you need to succeed. Biggest one, confidence. Remember, Ask, Tell, Demand!!!!! Three rules for working with a horse, and you gotta keep to em!!


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Also, Kayty...you had me ROLLING!! You sound just like me in your narrative there lol


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks! There's a big brown horse that all the others follow, but the real alpha is chocolate colored quarter mare. See, Chevis (Thats the "dominent" gelding) follow Baby (the little quarter mare) around like a lost puppy dog! As soon as she moves, he moves. Chevis won't let any other horse near her, so i try to make a point of walking scout between the two of them while waving my lead rope around to get Chevis to leave us alone. I don't really know if he gets that i can move the dominents horses feet around, that makes me domenint, but he lifts his head a little higher when i force the other horses to leave us alone. In all honesty though, it's hard to tall where exactly Scout is in the herd. Sometimes he's a part from them by himself, other times hes running around playing with his appy buddies. Oh! There were also two new horses brought out and they've got the entire herd out of wack. Scout actually came running the other day to get away from them. The other horses actually will come up to me before my own horse does on regular days, especially a little white arab mare who looks EXACTLY like Jamir. it's kind of unnerving for me. She'll follow me around the pasture like we've been buddies for life! But anyway, Scout obviously doesn't respect me like he should, so we'll work on that ASAP!


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Sydda said:


> Thanks! There's a big brown horse that all the others follow, but the real alpha is chocolate colored quarter mare. See, Chevis (Thats the "dominent" gelding) follow Baby (the little quarter mare) around like a lost puppy dog! As soon as she moves, he moves. Chevis won't let any other horse near her, so i try to make a point of walking scout between the two of them while waving my lead rope around to get Chevis to leave us alone. I don't really know if he gets that i can move the dominents horses feet around, that makes me domenint, but he lifts his head a little higher when i force the other horses to leave us alone. In all honesty though, it's hard to tall where exactly Scout is in the herd. Sometimes he's a part from them by himself, other times hes running around playing with his appy buddies. Oh! There were also two new horses brought out and they've got the entire herd out of wack. Scout actually came running the other day to get away from them. The other horses actually will come up to me before my own horse does on regular days, especially a little white arab mare who looks EXACTLY like Jamir. it's kind of unnerving for me. She'll follow me around the pasture like we've been buddies for life! But anyway, Scout obviously doesn't respect me like he should, so we'll work on that ASAP!


I would guess he's probably low man on the totem pole. Funny, I see the least dominant horses as the ones who will usually fight you most for dominance. For example, usually when new horses are brought in, the low man will try his hardest to not be low man anymore. If that makes sense. So I would guess that's why he's giving you so much flack. Because for once there's a "horse" (you) that he can be dominant over. That might not always be the case, but that's what I've seen. Every herd has their own dynamics. I would caution you about walking him in between the dominant mare and gelding. If that gelding went after your horse, he'd run you over in a heart beat because that is his alpha horse, not you yet. My 2 year old filly was out in a pasture with about 8 other horses. Usually she was off on her own away from the herd, because she too is low man. Spend some time just watching how they interact with each other. You'll learn a lot!!


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Ok, I'll deffinitly watch them! The other horses where we board are all pretty chilled out, probably because they're all at least twenty!! Scout, at the age of 8 seems to be fitting in great with his lazy buddies 😠 He hasn't had a single scratch on him thus far, although I don't really know if that's because he's so layed back or because he just hasn't tried anything yet!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Army wife's advice was fantastic as well- great suggestions - I often forget about that part of the training, because I spend my life in my barn and am surrounded by my horses all the time, so I often forget that other people need to make time for observing xD while I need to make time to be left alone ^^'

Have you tried the saddle on or gotten pictures of it on? Did you see that video on saddle fit? What have you been doing for his training lately? Have you tried either clicker training and/or using a crop to try to get him motivated/behaving?


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

I'm still waiting for the saddle to arive! I'm super excited though!! As for his training, I'm going to start riding him as soon as the footing is better! It's been raining and freezing lately, so we haven't done much. I have seen the videos!! They are super informative and thank god for smart phones so I can double check them all when I take the saddle out to him!! I'm going to start using natural horseman ship to get his respect, then move to clicker training to get the little details done! I think our current saddle might not fit right, so ill probably double check that after school tomorrow!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Do you ever get him sweaty under saddle? A good way to tell is if it leaves dry marks on his back. Usually on or behind the withers.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

He gets damp, but i've been trying not to get him too sweaty lately so he doesn't go into the cold, windy field wet. Plus, if im being completely honest, i try to keep the rides short and sweet so he doesn't get the chance to become moody and full of attitude! There shouldn't be sweat near the withers, right? because the saddle is supposed to be 2-3 fingers way from the withers?


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Well, there should be sweat wherever your saddle is. Nice even sweat marks. Dry spots are from pressure points cutting off blood flow and sweat glands. This can pinch nerves and cause big problems. Esp with attitude. If you walk him out after you ride, he should dry up pretty well. Walking out/cooling down also keeps muscles from getting tight and cramping. One of the most valuable lessons i learned in training, is to let your horse make mistakes. Man it's hard at first!! But if you don't let him make mistakes, then you avoid the opportunity to fix them. Which takes away your opportunity to train, and his chance to learn. So let him make mistakes, you can't avoid them. Babying our horses might be easier, but it never does us any favors in the long run


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

I'm planning on doing some ground work with him today, making him trot a lot and going over poles. We'll see if there's time to ride! Hopefully ill be able to hop up on him and get him going! I'm going to get a crop to start using when I ride, just Incase he decides to be a brat. There's a little pen where I can ride him and he won't be distracted by the other horses, so Ill probably do some figure eights and circles, maybe even try to ride him over the ground poles. I will be much firmer with the biting, and I might ask my mom to hop up on him bareback while I lead him around to see if he tries to pull anything. I won't be able to visit him for the next three days, so I'm hoping to get as much done as I can with him today! Any thing I should do today, exercise wise to get him to listen to me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Remeber to be firm and clear. Personally i prefer a dressage whip so you dont need to change your body position or let go of a rein to give him a flick with it. Always tap the crop/whil right behind your heel- your reinforcing your leg cue not giving him a new cues by hitting his butt or shoulder. Een when on the ground if you need the whip to get him moving, always flick it where your leg would fall. 
If he attempts to bite you i'd either back him up aggressively several feet until he's licking and chewing and do some yielding exercises vigorously or rub his mouth with both hands vigorously - make him not want his mouth near your body.

Good luck have fun!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Ok so, we didn't ride today, but we did put the saddle on him. He was tossing his head like crazy and skirting around to avoid the saddle. How do i get him to stand still?! He did try to bite me while we were putting the saddle on and i smacked his neck- hard. he skirted away from me and gave me a "Who are you and what have you done with my submissive owner?!" after that he chilled out more. Something was scaring him at the back of the pen, so he decided to run ahead of me and kick out- not cool. i kept him facing me and he was all crazy eyed and, well, scary. I wanted to just let him run away, but decided to buck up and make him listen. i started at the other end of the pen and made him walk in circles, gradually expanding them until we were as close to whatever was scaring him as possible. he was still alert, but he didn't try any funny buisness this time. Also, while i was grooming him, he kept tossing his head and fidgeting. It drove me nuts! How do i get him to JUST STAND STILL! He listened to me really well after a smacked him though. He trotted at the slightest pull, and he never tried to bite me again. Oh, and he kept bending down to eat while i was grooming him. do i let him eat, or do i force him to stand at attention?


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

I don't let me horses eat while grooming. Was he fidgeting while you were brushing his back? Also, did he previously stand still for saddling? He might be trying to tell you that he's in pain.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

No, he's always been fidgety! It's just never been this bad before. He's the same way with the bridle, i think he just knows what generally happens when hes got them on. As for his back, he's fine with me touching him, even rubbing.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Index and thumb, push down hard and run them down the length of his spine. One finger on each side. Not on his spine, just on the sides of it. See if you get a reaction. A small twinge is normal. When they all but drop to the ground, you know they're hurting!! Might be good to look into. Can you tie him up? I'd tie him up and leave him tied for a while. Go do something else, just let him stand there


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Ok, also, he ran away from me when i went out to get him. Like, running for his life! He was also fighting with another horse when i went out there, pawing and nipping. Jet, the other horse got pretty banged up, i'm going to have my parents check on him tomorrow and decide if they should call his owners. However, when he ran from me, he went straight to Jet, so i don't really know what's going on there! Is there anything i can do to make him come to me? Or do i just have to wait it out?


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Well, sounds like your pasture is pretty big. I would put him in a smaller pen and chase him off every time him runs from you. He'll figure out pretty quick that waiting for you is easier then being chased off.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

It sounds like you have a huge number of issues with this horse. Army Wife's ideas are dead on exactly what you should do. I'd still go with clicker training as it can resolve every single one of your issues quite quickly. I can go into details on how to quickly and effectively clicker train each skill, but as you seem to want to hold off on that route here's some more traditional ideas to further explain some of what Army was saying:

For standing for the saddle - does he even know the word stand? Have you ever actually forced him to stand still for anything before? If not he's got to learn what stand means before you can start chasing him with something he's associating with pain or discomfort.
So here's what you do - lead him to a patch with no grass (so it's one less distraction) and stop him - tell him "Stand" firmly and take a step back. He's naturally going to either follow you or walk away or do anything other than stand still. Simply put him back to where he was an start over. I like to do this in sand so I can draw a box around my horse in the sand, so I can see how far off he went and can move him back precisely. So each time he takes a step, back him up, if he walks out sideways move him back - the same as all your yielding exercises, but this time to move him somewhere specific. Keep firmly saying "stand" each time you start to back away. If he is genuinely trying to figure it out and stands still for a little bit more go back and give him a pat then start again. This just reassures him he's doing the correct thing.
Now I find teaching a horse to stand still much easier with clicker training. It's just faster. I like to use a welcome mat, but you can use anything or nothing. I walk my horse over and have her stand on the mat with her front feet. I click and treat - I take a step back, if she follows me I back her up onto the mat and tell her "stand" and take a step back - if she hesitates even a second I'll quickly click and treat before she has time to leave the mat. I'll repeat this until I can back a few steps away and she stays with her feet on the mat. Then I'll work on walking circles all around her. Again moving her back into position each time she moves out and giving her the verbal cue as I move away. Clicking and treating when I go a step further or when I start to see her thinking that she should be doing something else. I like to use the welcome mat because I can put it anywhere and she'll stand with her front feet on it, it gives her a good visual reminder of what she should be doing. But if the verbal cue is strong you shouldn't need anything else and he should be able to do it anywhere.

As for not being able to be caught - again clicker training fixes that without trying - they're desperate to see you xD but outside of that Army Wife's comment about making him work when he doesn't come to you is great. In your huge field that's tough - so you'd have to put him in a pen, let him go, then try to get him again- if he moves away then chase him off. I don't have a round pen, but I've found I was able to round pen/join up with my horses just as well in a rectangular paddock, I just had to move more and not let them get stuck in corners. In fact I found it easiest to keep them out of corners just by constantly changing direction - which continues to assert you as dominant. So if you have any smaller sized paddock that's how I'd go about it 

As for grooming and eating, if I'm just goofing off I'll let them eat - but in the case of your disrespectful pony I would not. When you are around him his attention should be on you - not fussing with the herd or eating grass. I'd tie him up while grooming him (assuming he ties - if not you've got a whole nother issue on your hands).
Standing to be saddled - again if you want to avoid the CT route then tying him up is a good option until he has the 'stand' cue firm. 

As for him getting spooky in the ring - it may not be anything scary at all. Horses are dependent on their herd for their safety and when removed from their herd they are extra vigilant. But _you_need to become better than his herd. By becoming _his_ herd leader he will feel safe with you until something genuinely frightful happens. There are also deer out this time of year where I live - many horses are terrified of them so he may have seen something - but either way...
Circling him was a good idea, you did great there!! I would also add in yielding exercises. Every time you yield him you are reasserting yourself as 'in charge'.

A horse's feet are their everything - without their feet they have no food, no water, no safety (in their eyes, we'd always take care of them) - but that is what matter the most. You'll notice herd leaders will throw bites and kicks and all that - but you'll notice even more just a stern look from a herd leader gets the other horses to _move their feet_. You'll see a herd of horses galloping across a field, all turning and shifting and looking the same directions at the same times like as if they're reading each others mind. But in fact you'll notice they're all just following the herd leader - that's the one who's controlling all their feet. It's not about being mean, hitting them or any of that the true control comes out of moving their feet. 
So the best way to gain dominance is by moving him a lot. I'm so happy to hear you did so well, getting him to trot - it sounds like he's starting to take you seriously now.  Yielding exercises that I explained earlier are hugely beneficial in this. With especially tough ponies, during my yielding exercises I won't move my feet more than a step or two - they do alllll the movements. So if I want to yield their hind end, I guide their head and make them walk over so I can reach their hind end to yield that away, then turn them around so I can yield their other hind end away. Doing this just reinforces in their mind that I am in charge. I use this as a punishment, when we aren't just playing with our clicker training - I find they'll yield forever and ever with clicker training 

So anytime he is rude, bites you, drags you, tries to pull away, won't stand still - your best weapon is _moving_ his feet! 

keep us posted you made huge strides today - great job!! Respect is earned it takes a while, so you're well on your way


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

I've never even attempted ct. But it sounds like it works great for you punks! Yup, you elaborated pretty darn well. Another thing i would do on the fidgeting, is to yield his hindquarters if the backing doesn't work. Same concept as him running away from you. Make it less work to stand still. This basically makes it his idea, not yours. Like reverse psychology. This is all reminding me of how i taught my mare lol i did a lot of backing with her. I almost never tie her at home. She stands for everything.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

He knows the command "stand". In fact, when he was at his old home, he stood perfectly still- then again, they always had hay nets up to keep him occupied. We don't really have any enclosed area except for a little pony paddock that's a rectangle no more then 20 feet long and maybe 15 wide. Is this big enough, or am I just asking for trouble? We do a lot of backing up, and all it takes is the slightest tug and he'll back up for miles. He really just hasn't had to do much work throughout his life, so I think he's just tired of being worked and bothered. I'm really pushing for a round pen, which my dad said he would build, but every time I bring it up, he tells me to drop it, and he'll get to it Punks- are your horses coming to you, or to the treats? I'm just worried that Scout and I don't have a good enough relationship yet to start ct. It sounds like you had pretty solid foundations with your horses before you started using the clicker training, but me and Scout aren't that close, and I want him to come to ME, not the treats. He does have a lot of problems, but he's a good horse, even though he seems to forget that a lot!  I'm sure most of his problems are due to lack of respect for me, because when we went to check him out several times before buying him, he was perfect. I want to get him back to that! (And I'm certain he wasn't drugged, we dropped by several times without warning, and his owners weren't the type of people to do that- they still e mail me to check up on him!)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

You have fantastic questions - I was honestly very concerned about the same thing. I want my horse to love me because of me, not because I come bearing food. Just like what I was saying earlier about how you're teaching the skill and reinforcing with food - it's the same with your relationship. You're building a relationship every time you work with your horse - you don't need to force their respect when using clicker training, if they aren't respectful nothing good is happening for them.
Essentially my horses come to me because they associate me with being happy. I do not have food every time I'm near them, I'm working around them 24/7 I clicker train 5-10 minutes every once in a while. So most of the time I don't have food near them, but I have trouble getting my mare to stay away from me while I'm trying to clean her stall or paddock xD She knows that when she's with me I'm either grooming her, sitting on her, or feeding her and she loves it all. I have made it so she enjoys all those things by giving her something she wants - in exchange for something I want. 
My mare gets excited when I put her bridle on (i don't have a saddle yet xD) but she knows it's time to ride and each time I ride her she learns some new way to get food out of me - she loves it.

I did have a secure relationship with my mare before CT, but she never did trust me - For a year I had her, worked with NH, she would yield everything with the slightest suggestion, she'd back just by me looking at her and squaring up, she'd do anything I's ask the moment I thought of it - but _nothing_ would get her to leave her paddock. Not even a bucket full of food two steps out her gate would get her out. I did all the 'lunging for respect' exercises - I tried the 'make her work' so leaving is easier, I had someone try to chase her out. With a chain over her nose another trainer and I both hauled her butt out the paddock and dragged her down to our round pen which, the moment she was unclipped she broke through and ran back to her stall. So when I say nothing would get her out of her paddock - *nothing *would. 
After 2 weeks of clicker training work she had learned to trust me, she associated the things I asked of her witha positive outcome rather than a negative one, rather than being punished for not doing what I wanted she was rewarded for doing the right thing. So each step she took toward the gate was offered a click and a treat - by the end of the day she was walking willingly around my property and dancing with joy at the open spaces (literally!). She learned to trust me and believe that what I asked was followed by something positive. 

It sounds to me like your horse really needs something to look forward to. He associates humans with work, being taken from his friends, not being able to eat - why should he want to be with you if nothing good comes out of it? Herd leaders are firm and fair and demand respect - but they also provide for all the needs of the horses in their herd. They lead the herd to water and safe grazing grounds. In your situation even if you establish yourself as herd leader, you haven't associated yourself with anything positive, just the removal of something negative (that you yourself instilled) - so why should he go to you? You see where I'm coming from? 

The training your using is absolutely acceptable and has been used for ages and ages - it works! It's just not very motivating for the horse - and it sounds to me your horse lacks motivation. 

With my pony I had no relationship with before I started my CT, he had just come from a horrible situation that he saved himself from by violently attacking his trainer - so he was returned to our rescue - we were unable to readopt him to anyone outside the rescue, so I took him. He was grouchy and violent - afraid of the world. Within a few days of clicker training he broke completely out of his shell, it still rears it's ugly head when he's in a new or strange situation, he'll become upset - but usually if I just give him a few of his easy cues he realizes that's all he has to do and stops worrying.
I've never had to worry about earning my pony's respect, I've had it sense the day I started the CT. I never had to worry about earning his love, he trusts me with his life. We go out for hikes, which I never dreamed he could do with his explosive and violent nature - but he just trusts me. He'll go wherever I lead him and our only problem recently is that he gets over excited and pulls on the lead when we get to the hay field - I guess that was cause I let him trot through it when we were chasing the ice cream truck xD Now he thinks he's gonna get ice cream if we run across the field fast enough ^^ silly pony! 


So I guess my point is you absolutely don't need to use it - I don't want to sound like I'm forcing it on you, but if I had your pony as demotivated as he is - I'd be working hard to make him see me as something wonderful to be around. Your current path sounds great too. 
It sounds to me he used to be good because he had someone he knew he had to be good for - but having been left in a field he's decided he likes the company of his friends more than humans.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Okay, I'm going on a three day trip today to our Capitol for a school thing, so Im going to think about clicker training while I'm there (I really don't think about anything besides scout, anyway!) it sounds like it worked wonders for you!!! I'll do more research and get back to you! The mat thing sounds like a fantastic idea!!! I know he'll start coming this winter when we bring sweet feed to give an energy Burst during the cold, winter days! That's exactly what it took to get Jamir coming to us- seriously, he came a-runnin! But that faded once the weather warmed up and we stopped bringing the sweet feed, dang horse! Will Scout stop coming to us if we don't use ct for a day or two?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

This sounds great - and again I do advise you to do research and learn as much as you can about it before starting it. 
As for the food thing. I haven't done a CT session with my mare in over two weeks - but like I said you're building a relationship based on positive associations, you're not bribing him. I haven't had a CT session with my mare in over two weeks - just for lack of time, but her behaviors haven't changed one bit toward me. She still respects my space, she still comes running when I call her name, she still gives me kisses and lets me mess on her without a fuss.

In the mean time here are some references I used to learn about CT -
this link has a great deal of videos and links to more videos on how to fix every problem in the book and teach pretty much any skill you could imagine xD
On The Ground : On Target Training with Shawna Karrasch

This one has some more overview basic information on it:
Shawna Karrasch and On Target Training | Positive Reinforcement Clicker Training | Horse Training

This is what I used to learn how to teach my horses to stand:





This video is great at explaining the ins and outs of CT, but I find this particular trainer has allowed this horse to become more pushy than I'd approve of - don't be disuaded by that, that was just her not enforcing that rule





This one is chalk full of fun tricks you can teach your horse unmounted, you'll see what a fantastic bond this girl has with her horse too  I wouldn't recommend doing the trick with the tire though, just doesn't ring safe ot me xD





There are so many more  just look around!


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

So, I visited scout today in the pouring rain and have decided that I need to take drastic measures. When I went out there, he was a calm, a little wet, but otherwise respectfull. He even stood to let me put the hater on him instead of running away from me! However, as soon as I started leading him away from his buddies, he turned into a dangerous animal. He was sloding in the mud pushing me so he could try to get to his buddies. He kept skirting around so he was always facing them and at one point, he even tried to plow over me to get to them. He was nipping, tossing his head and overall scaring the living daylights out of me. I got him up to the front gate and realized there was no way I could safely fight with him on his behavior. I was going to let him go then and there, but he kept tossing his head and rearing, so just to be safe, I went on the other side of the gate to release him. As soon as the halter was off, he turned and ran as fast as he could. I had tried everything I could think of, from backing him up 10 feet to yeilding his hind quarters, to smackig him with thesis rope to get his attention. NOTHING worked. I know it was raining, so that wasn't very pleasant for either of us, but I can't have a horse who acts like that- no matter what the circumstances. I'm sure by now you're thinking I'm planning on seeking him, but I'm not. I'm planning on putting him in a round pen and making him run until he submits. I know that's kind of harsh, but its so much better then beating him with a crop which is what the Internet has told me to do. I don't know wha horse he was today, but he deffinitly wasn't the sweet gelding I remember from the first few weeks we had him. Is there anything else I can do wihout endaged the both of us? He doesn't respect me AT ALL and now it's become dangerous.
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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

He definitely needs some submission work. I wouldn't hesitate to work his butt off in a round pen - that's no where near acceptable. If you've got a small paddock you can use that, if you can rope off the corners it's even better. Unfortunately you did let him get away with that behaviour today, but I don't think you're able to handle him like that. 
Personally at this point I believe you need to hire a trainer. I don't think you're equipt to handle this horse, not that you're not a fantastic horse person - but he's getting to be far too dangerous to be acceptable. It seems every day he's getting worse. I really think you need someone in person there to help you, at least to get started. If you can't afford it save your pennies and avoid making contact - each negative interaction you have with him is making his behavior worse and worse.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

I agree 100% with punks. Could you talk to his old owners and see if they could give you a hand? You definitely need someone there to help you!! I would've worked him the moment he started acting up. Right in the middle of the field. Don't give up, just get more help!


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

I will see if I can get help, but I feel like I need to be the one to work him because he's disrespectful to everyone, but especially me. As for not working him immediately, that was because the ground was so wet. I didn't want to risk him falling on his face in the swampy mush the field had become. I'm going out tomorrow to reassess now that its drying up a bit. I'm hoping he was just in a mood and that ill be able to handle him. If not, my dad will be there to take over. Maybe it's because he has a Stronger, deeper voice then mine, but Scout is a little better for him then he is for me.
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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

A good trainer will have you work with him. They'll just show you a better way to handle him and give you more confidence.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

My parents friend might agree to help and she's a professional trainer. Money is a bit tight right now though, so I don't really know how much of a possibility a trainer is if she says no.
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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm glad to hear you're looking into help - this horse has learned he can get away with more and more. I'm sure he's a good horse, he's just looking for the easy route out.

Now I'm like you - want to do it all myself and learn while I do it. But in this case, I feel, you don't have the experience do deal with the way this situation has escalated - safely. Any good trainer will only handle the horse long enough to show you what you need to do or deal with a dangerous situation. The rest of the time they're just there to teach you how to respond in each situation and help get your timing down, which is vital. 

If your family friend doesn't work out and you can't afford a trainer- look for a local horse rescue or a local horse trainer. Call them up and ask if you can just follow them around and watch and learn from them. Some may be catty about it - but others are happy to teach. In your time following them around watch everything they do, all the body language - ask as many questions as you can (without being so annoying they kick you out ) and ask them questions about how they'd handle your horse. 
When I got real stuck with my mare I found a local rescue that worked with draft horses and called and asked their trainer more than a million questions. He was so helpful! I learned so much from that one phone call. I wish I lived closer so I could have gone and watched him work. 

In my opinion your horse needs to be worked with all his yielding exercises until his head is down and he's licking and chewing in submission. If you don't have a round pen, but have a small enough fenced in area you can round pen in those. My mare's paddock is a huge rectangle, I had to run a little more but it worked well. I wouldn't get on that horse's back until he has respect again. Yielding exercises and round pen work really are the most effective way for that. If he acts up (based on not wanting to work,not based on you applying too much pressure) then he needs to worked harder and faster until he's submitting. Just because he knows the cues doesn't mean he respects you- he needs to do it until he realizes you have full control over his feet at all times and he _must_ listen to you.

As far as the herdbound thing - this is a really annoying situation, but every horse has this issue until it's worked out. The easiest way I've found to deal with this is the Yo-yo effect. Bring him out as far as he's comfortable, just before he starts wanting to go back to his friends - plop a bowl of something yummy in front of him (please don't use sweet feed for him, small carrots or hay stretcher pellets are best - sweet feed is just too high energy for a naughty horse). While he's eatting - and still wants to be eating, pick him up and bring him back to his friends. Now all of a sudden the spot away from his friends is looking better. Bring him back there, let him eat some more. Rinse and Repeat this, each time bringing the bowl a little further away from his buddies. Do this for a couple days, he'll quickly learn being away from his friends is better - and that he'll always go back to his friends. Gradually you reduce the food and introduce work. It's especially helpful if you keep the work fun and happy for him too like how we talked about in allll the previous posts.
I wouldn't work on his herd bound behavior until he is respecting you again though. But it seems his disrespect pops up mostly when he's being herd-bound.

Good luck, please be safe. Keep us posted.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Update- I went out to see Scout today and surprisingly enough, neither of us got seriously injured!! He wasn't exactly "good" but he wasn't a devil horse either. We did sooooooo much backing up. We back and backed until he was completely focused on me and his head was down. I wanted to practice having him stand tied, so I tied him up and sat on one of the fence posts near by. He tossed his head and got very nippy, but eventually he chilled out and stood quietly. As soon as he did so, I unclipped the lead line so he could roam freely around the little pony pen we were working in. At first, he was just kind of chillen, standing around and letting me pet him. Then I went back to my perch and he went crazy!!! Running around the pen, trying to knock down the fence to get the other horses. It was rediculous. I hopped out of there as quickly as possible and watched him, hoping he would calm down on his own. He didn't. I called him over and he actually came to me, which was nice, and he cooled down the second he heard the lead snap on the halter. He was still uncomfortabl alert and pushy, so I took him around the little pen a few times and then walked out onto the gravel. We yeilded and did even more backing up until we were both in sour moods. After one last good backing up, I took him back in the field and asked him to step up the way we had been practicing before he got all crazy face on me! He did t like a pro and I praised him a lot before taking off the halter. I backed him up without any tack on him and he seemed fine. As soon as I turned toward the gate though, he took off. I really didn't know what to do, so I just admired him from afar and left after that. Also, our saddle fits, yay! What do I do when he starts going crazy in he pen? It's not by any means large enough to lunge in, so I'm worried he'll hurt himself. Right now it's just a waiting game until we can set up a much sturdier round pen. None of the fencing is very good where we board, but none of the horses have ever tried anything and its probably 11 years old or so. Anyway, did I do okay? What should I do tomorrow? How long should I be out there with him? Today it was about 2 hours that I was working with him.
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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I still feel you should have help - not because you aren't knowledgeable, but because your new and this horse has proven he's willing to test to dangerous levels.

Flipping out around the pen is fairly usual for a herd bound horse. Here's what I'd do for herd bound horses:
"As far as the herdbound thing - this is a really annoying situation, but every horse has this issue until it's worked out. The easiest way I've found to deal with this is the Yo-yo effect. Bring him out as far as he's comfortable, just before he starts wanting to go back to his friends - plop a bowl of something yummy in front of him (please don't use sweet feed for him, small carrots or hay stretcher pellets are best - sweet feed is just too high energy for a naughty horse). While he's eatting - and still wants to be eating, pick him up and bring him back to his friends. Now all of a sudden the spot away from his friends is looking better. Bring him back there, let him eat some more. Rinse and Repeat this, each time bringing the bowl a little further away from his buddies. Do this for a couple days, he'll quickly learn being away from his friends is better - and that he'll always go back to his friends. Gradually you reduce the food and introduce work. It's especially helpful if you keep the work fun and happy for him too like how we talked about in allll the previous posts.
I wouldn't work on his herd bound behavior until he is respecting you again though. But it seems his disrespect pops up mostly when he's being herd-bound."

You're doing good with the backing - glad to hear you're being more assertive. Don't get stuck on just backing up, it's a good skill but too much of it can just frustrate everyone (as you've probably noticed). So mix it up - yield every part of him all the time.
When he's misbehaving and you need to reassert yourself- Yield him, every part of him, without pause until his head is down, his ears are on your and he's licking and chewing. 
I would recommend working his butt off while he's near his friends and letting him do something more enjoyable while he's away, so being away from his friends looks a little more inviting 

Things to absolutely focus on and remember:
1) Always relieve the pressure for the slightest tries at doing the right thing! Immediately, timing is everything! If you relieve it when he hasn't listened yet you just taught him pressure doesn't mean anything. If you don't relieve it on time you're teaching him he didn't do the right thing and he'll look for something else to relieve it.
2) If he's bad - work his butt off until he's submitting, not just a minute, make it a punishment. Don't let him just go back to his friends, that's exactly what he wants and he'll assume all he has to do is throw a hissy fit and you let him off.
3) if he's good - let him rest give him a good scratch where he likes it.
4) respect can be broken in a second, but takes quite a while to earn back - so expect this to take time
5) not enough pressure will be ignored, too much pressure will cause explosions- so if he's flipping out you applied too much - if he's ignoring you you're not using enough
6) always start with the least amount of pressure possible and gradually increase - each time to give the horse a chance to learn to give to light pressure before it gets stronger. Eventually you may never need to get stronger.

Have you tried Parrelli's 7 games? I'm no big fan of him but his games are great for all horses to have as a good, solid foundation. It will get him respecting you a bit better if you maintain it. Don't bother buying the toys - you don't need them.
www.parellinaturalhorsetraining.com/parelli-7-games-the-friendly-game/

Keep working him until you feel safe and confident. 
I think another thing that could greatly benefit your relationship with the horse is some quality time. Bring him to the small pen, get a book, give him some hay in the pen and just hang out by each other. For a while he'll flip because his buddies are out but eventually he'll realize you're pretty OK company too. Once he's settled (which may take more than a few chapters of your book) - just go groom him, off lead, don't make him do anything - just be together and enjoy each other.
Remember not every minute with your horse should be work - you need time to enjoy each other too - that's why we have them right? When it's time to work - make him work, when it's time to relax - just relax!

You aren't his herd leader, you aren't his friend - you are his parent until he has learned enough to be your partner. You need to guide him - balancing reward, punishment, good times and tough fights. The rules need to be clear and fair - maintained always. And the rewards need to be clear and worthwhile. Once he's learned all he needs to you two will be perfect partners.

Good luck, keep us posted.

ETA: how big is the pen you've got? If it's big enough for him to flap around in I think it's big enough for you to 'round-pen' in. Have you ever round penned a horse? Do you know how to read even their most subtle signs? Small pens work just as well as round ones for that sort of work. If he's disrespectful - send him away and make him work, free lunge him around, make him change directions a million times until his whole focus is on you. You can use this at any point of your training, if you're getting him to yield to pressure and he reacts like a grump (and it's not because you're doing something wrong) then just send him off make him work until he's focused again. I found I had to do it quite often in the beginning with my mare, not for her being bad but because she'd get distracted and wanted to go play with the other horses rather than do what I was asking, so I got her attention back on me. This problem has never occurred again once I started CT though xD I have her full attention all the time


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

I'm familiar with Parelli, we used it on Jamir for a few months before he got sick. I'm looking into getting a trainer, but its going kind of slow. I am never by myself, the owners of the place where I board insist that some over the age of 16 be there with me at all times, so my parents or someone else is always there Incase something were to happen. I got a Parelli stick that I used today and he wasn't very responsive to it, so I'm going to have to put the string on and see if that works. I'll post a picture of the pen tomorrow so you can tell me if it seems big enough to you. Apparently Scout lunges without a whip, but I don't know the commands. I've only ever lunged a horse the conventional way with a whip. I think he might be a bit confused since his old owners weren't too hip on lunging to begin with. I'll try the Yo-yo thing, I just didn't even know If I would be able to get a halter on him today. As for the have I round penned question, I haven't. I have however, watched it done in real life and seen every single video on the Internet. I know, you can't learn how to train a horse through YouTube, but we don't really have a whole lot of options. Like I said, I won't be alone and I'll have a whip to keep him away from me Incase he goes all wild eyes and scary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

This sounds good. 
Please don't fall for the gimmicks - those sticks don't train horses - people do. He won't respond to the stick just cause you give him a command with it - he needs to know what the command means. If he's never seen it before he has no clue what the stick is telling him.
You'll see in the Parrelli link I posted about how moving away from solid pressure is very different than moving away from rhythmic pressure. Almost any horse will move away from a swinging rope if it's never seen one - but most horses will move into solid pressure of someone or something pushing into it's side.

So it's vital to do the 'porcupine' game before the 'driving' game. He needs to move away from solid pressure before you use a stick.


As for round penning - I suggest you ask if any of the people around the barn can show you how to do it first. It's not something to be taken lightly.
I also personally, don't find it all that vital - it can be done without. So long as you do quality ground work and maintain your role as Parent.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

I saw scout today and forgot to take a picture of the pony pen! Anyway, I'd say it went quite well. I decided to just chill out with him in the pasture, so I did lots of stroking and scratching and he was very relaxed, he even started to doze as I doted on him. I kept him near his buddies and just worked on "walk on" and "back". In fact, by the time I was done with him, I could unclip the lead line and he would follow me and back up with only a whisper of "back" or me moving like I was going to push him. He did really great, or at least to me he did. I never had to reprimand him for Nipping or tossing his head, even when I all but stuck my hand in his mouth. I really just hung out with him, only asking him to do minor tasks I knew he was capable of. We're still workin on yeilding those dang for quarters though!! As soon as the halter came off though, he was pretty much done with me and didn't act aggressively or anything, just kind of gave me the cold shoulder. I've really been workin in keeping my stance firm so he's the one moving, not me! For example, I would let him out his head down near my face, and per him, but as soon as he got a little too pushy, I moved him away and started making him work. Also, his head was down the entire time and he was focused o me. He did this weird thing with his lips where he pushed them away from his teeth, like he was puckering up for a kiss! What is this? It wasn't a yawn, but it wasn't exactly like he was licking his lips. How'd I do? How'd be do? What should I do tomorrow?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Sounds like you two had a great day today.  
You did a great job just trying to focus on keeping things positive for the day - this is vital to having a happy horse/human relationship - keep things positive. The moment one of you gets frustrated, learning stops. 
Now that things are manageable again I think you really need to focus on training him, making him want to learn, getting him responsive, and making him want your company over other horses. Which honestly I only see a few ways.
The first is the 'get tough' type way. Here's how you can get tough with him.
To get him over his herd bound nature, this is how other people handle it (not my way). Take him out away from his friends, somewhere he's not comfortable, and tie him up with a strong lead rope and halter that won't break, tie him above his head so he can't get tangled in the rope or reach to graze. Then wait until he gives up trying to call to his friends or get loose. This (in their opinion) teaches them to deal with being alone. In my opinion it teaches them that they have no control over their lives and should give up on the idea of self preservation. But to each their own.
The 'get tough' way of getting him more behaved is by carrying a dressage whip around with you, if he pushes into your space back him up forcefully. Practice all the yielding techniques with pressure/release. You could use a dressage whip, a dually halter, a rope halter, a chain over the nose, or any other strong device to make these things happen, or just a flat halter and persistence.
I've already explained in solid detail how to teach a horse to yield and back out of your space - but if you aren't being forceful to MAKE it happen he isn't learning anything! Every time you ask him to do something and he _doesn't_ do it - he's learning he doesn't have to. Every cue you ask the horse needs to respond too - if he doesn't you need to escalate the pressure until he does listen. Pat Parelli has even said that at times he's had to use the tip of a screw driver to encourage a horse to move away from pressure.

*OR
*you could look into alternative training styles. I've already explained in great detail how to clicker train him to fix all the issues you've had, as far as being herd bound, to yielding to pressure, to responding to all your cues, even up to _wanting_ to be with you and _wanting_ to learn.
Yesterday I was doing a CT session with my mare and I was working on something completely new that she'd never done anything like before. When I stepped back and thought about what we just did I was pretty impressed (not to gloat xD). She was at liberty in a field full of grass, I walked in and she trotted over. As I started I cued the new skill I wanted her to learn. She didn't understand - but she stood in front of me, facing me, eagerly trying to figure out what I wanted her to do. As I walked around her, moving different parts of my body, she, in turn was moving her body, left and right and backwards and forwards, fussing around - all she wanted was to figure out what I wanted out of her. She didn't care about the grass at her feet- she didn't need me to push her around or hold her from leaving me, she just watched my every move and tried to translate what I wanted. When she got the click and treat her eyes lit up, she _knew_ she had done something right, now she just had to figure out what? So for 10 minutes I worked on the skill, gradually she picked up what it was I wanted out of her and I left - she followed me out  
An hour or so later I went back to work more on the new skill, this time she new right away what I wanted at first, but then started to second guess herself (maybe my timing was off). But for the 15 minutes I spent with her she was acutely focused on _me_ and trying to read me, trying to figure out what I wanted. She only got rude once and I have to admit, I got rude first. I got frustrated when she wasn't picking it up as fast as I wanted, so I pushed her back into position, she pushed me right back. I did correct her for that with a sharp growl and a quick backing up. Then I spent a couple minutes just working on something she knew solidly to get us back focused positively, before trying our new skill again.

If you don't want to take my word for it - or if you want more resources please read this thread- I think it will help you and your pony a good deal:
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/clicker-training-resources-wanted-142876/page3/#post1761162


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## Lakota102 (May 30, 2011)

We too have a horse that is unbalanced. Assuming everything is fine physically with the horse, you may want to move him, at a walk, around a cone in the center of the arena. Start out with the circle large, then slowly make it smaller and smaller. Be sure to work both sides - left/right. We have found that if we are trying to get the horse to bend to the left, bring you left heel back, past the girth and apply heal pressure. The horse will move away from the pressure and bend which will help with the balance. We have been working with a trainer for the last 2 months on helping our horse become balanced. It is a long process but we see improvement. Best of luck!


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

I tried using the yo-yo method to get scout away from the other horses and as soon as he saw the sweet feed, I ceased to exist. I was by myself so I had to ring the feed with me and since there are 8 other horses to keep away from the food, I couldn't put it down. He was all over me, and it was soooooo hard to lead him! I guess I'll just need a bit of help next time! Also there's another horse who is cute, but kind of mean. She's one of the only mares out there, but she would not leave Scout alone once she saw the food. She is very submissive and as soon as I so much as glared at her she would skirt away, but she came right back! I ran at her, started swinging the rope around , everything I've ever seen done, but she never stayed away. Any suggestions? Also, is it ok for scout to be so pushy, my dad says that since its bribery, the horse can do whatever he wants. I disagree and think its a horrible idea to let him get away wpith pushing and nipping to get at the food. What do I do about this, or do I not do anything at all and do what my dad says? On the bright side, he isn't nearly so unbalanced now that I force him to walk fast!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Sydda said:


> I tried using the yo-yo method to get scout away from the other horses and as soon as he saw the sweet feed, I ceased to exist. I was by myself so I had to ring the feed with me and since there are 8 other horses to keep away from the food, I couldn't put it down. He was all over me, and it was soooooo hard to lead him! I guess I'll just need a bit of help next time! Also there's another horse who is cute, but kind of mean. She's one of the only mares out there, but she would not leave Scout alone once she saw the food. She is very submissive and as soon as I so much as glared at her she would skirt away, but she came right back! I ran at her, started swinging the rope around , everything I've ever seen done, but she never stayed away. Any suggestions? Also, is it ok for scout to be so pushy, my dad says that since its bribery, the horse can do whatever he wants. I disagree and think its a horrible idea to let him get away wpith pushing and nipping to get at the food. What do I do about this, or do I not do anything at all and do what my dad says? On the bright side, he isn't nearly so unbalanced now that I force him to walk fast!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I thought you were moving him? Or getting a trainer to help you? 

I think I see your trouble- you want a lot of things out of your horse at once. You want him to lead politely - at the walk and trot toward and away from the other horses. You want him to choose you over food, but still use food to motivate him. You want him to listen to you but have a great deal of other horses to deal with as well as your own.

Is he still being herd bound? Throwing a fuss when brought to the ring? I think you have too many horses to deal with to be using food - it's great when dealing with one horse at a time or a group of respectful horses - not a group of pushing/rude horses. So I suggest putting the food in the pen where the other horses are locked out of - bring your horse in and allow him to eat, put him back out before he's finished (while he's still wanting more). 
Once he's comfortable leaving his herd and going to the pen - just to eat - then it's time to start teaching him to work away from the other horses. The 'work' should still be positive and something that he'll enjoy and desire (preferably something he'll like more than being with his horse buddies). 
You can't expect him to have his attention on you while he's eating - but you absolutely MUST INSIST on his proper behavior while you're leading him - ESPECIALLY around food!! 
Food is a VERY good teacher - whatever a horse does to get food he'll learn and want to do more and more - so if he's rude and gets food, he'll want to be rude more and more. If he gets food while he's being polite - guess what he'll do. This is why positive reinforcement is so effective - but it's also dangerous if you aren't feeding at the right time.

If you want to use positive reinforcement - no it isn't bribery, the difference is the cue - the horse is responding to the cue and being rewarded for it - not responding to a bribe. So an example would be, a horse trots in hand, he did it well so he gets a click while he's trotting and a treat right after (the horse needs to know that click=treat for this to be effective) - rather than just holding a bucket of food out for him to make him trot to it to get it. That's the difference between positive reinforcement and bribery.

If you want to use positive reinforcement there are strict rules you need to follow. The horse MUST be polite. I would start - like I stated earlier - in a small enclosed environment (a stall or small dry lot). The horse on lead in front of me, my pockets full of goodies. The horse will start by mugging me, maybe pawing the ground or tossing his head. I'll correct with a growl or a snap of the lead rope if the horse gets toooo pushy. The moment the horse looks away standing quietly I click and treat. At this point they don't know what click means, so the food needs to be immediate - but this will help teach them that click=treat (you can use any distinct sound, not just a clicker). Repeat this until the horse realizes the only way to get food is to stand politely. 
Do not Ever feed a horse while it's being pushy or impolite - don't try to use food until they know how to take food politely. 

Once the horse is polite to get food and knows that click=treat you can use it to get any skill. So with my mare who was afraid of leaving her paddock (which would be treated similar to being herd bound). I lead her around the paddock, clicking and treating while she's being respectful - which she knows how to do, we were just reinforcing the skill - then I walked to her gate (Which always gets her nervous) and clicked and treated when she stood calmly by the gate. Then when she stood calmly by the open gate, then when she took a step out of the gate. To be clear I didn't wiggle food in front of her outside the paddock, I lead her out and when she walked out appropriately I clicked and treated while she was being lead politely. Her other issue is that once out of the paddock her eyes and ears are everywhere, all muscles tense and ready to explode - so I clicked and treated when she returned her focus to me and relaxed her body. After less than a week of this I can now lead her out and walk her around my entire property without needing clicks or treats unless there's some special reason (like a loud truck going by and she doesn't react - or she's especially attentive to me).

You can use this method with your horse with working to get him away from his herd. Once he's learned click=treat and that he MUST be respectful to get the treat (even when working on future skills, if they loose their respect they loose their food). Then you can practice walking him away from his friends, start by c+t whenever his attention is on you near the other horses, then walk slowly away, if he walks politely c+t, if not start again or correct whatever issue he's having. Gradually work up his distance until he learns he needs to lead politely with you wherever you bring him, no matter how close or far his buddies are. 

If you don't think you can do this, following these rules to maintain his respect and focus then please don't try - rewarding at the wrong time can lead to worse issue than you started with. I also recommend using something yummy, but not so hot as sweet feed. My horses would flip over backwards for a couple hay stretcher pellets xD 
If you can't maintain those rules then look into other methods.

The other option you have is bringing him into the pen and if he's not focused on you - make him work, when he's focused, let him rest.


Good luck  Keep us posted.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

You'd previously mentioned sweet feed making horses have too much energy, but when I brought it up to the man at the counter at the feed store, he said it was a myth, that's eh we got sweet feed. Aparently, molasses has to be taken in MASSIVE amounts in order to make the horse any hotter than it ready is. As for moving him, that fell through as for the trainer, my parents decided to buy a sail boat, which they've wanted to do for quite some time, but that means there's not enough extra cash for a trainer. I did however convince them that I needed a place to work my horse where I could put a barrier between him and the herd and also be able to get away if he decided to go crazy. They are working on getting a round pen or small arena, bt when you don't really want to do something, you rarely rush to get it done, so me and scout just have to wait. I'm only going up to see him once a week or so, to keep the negative encounter to a minimum. I don't want him to put me over food either, I simply don't want him to plow through me to get to it. I don't know, maybe that's too much to ask right now, but I am not physically large or strong enough to allow him to be so pushy. I think our problems will not be fixed, bt will become much better once we have a place I can make him work when he's disrespectful. I will see what I can do to get him a stall soon, I think spending nights away from the herd will lessen his herdboundness. Then again, it might just make it worse, but only time will tell.
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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Sydda said:


> I don't want him to put me over food either, I simply don't want him to plow through me to get to it. I don't know, maybe that's too much to ask right now, but I am not physically large or strong enough to allow him to be so pushy. I think our problems will not be fixed, bt will become much better once we have a place I can make him work when he's disrespectful. I will see what I can do to get him a stall soon, I think spending nights away from the herd will lessen his herdboundness. Then again, it might just make it worse, but only time will tell.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


First issue - him being pushy around food - it absolutely can be fixed do what I've explained a few times now. If you can't safely be in the paddock with him and food use the method started on the other side of the fence holding his lead rope on the other side.
Stand there with a pocket full of food. While he's being rude or invasive, pawing or making faces or head tossing just ignore him - if he gets too bad give him a growl and a snap of the rope. 
When he stops and looks away for ANY reason click and treat. After that he'll go crazy trying to figure out what to do to get that food, he'll get a little more aggressive at first so please be in a safe position, but if you maintain NOT feeding him while he's being rude and feeding him while he's being good - he'll be good. Then you can practice without the fence between you. As he gets better gradually delay the click and treat, so he has to be good for more than a second or two to get it, until he'll stand quietly for several seconds. 
Then you could even teach him the 'stand' command - to stand perfectly still while you walk all around him. Start by putting him in a position - put your hand up and say 'stand', take a half a step back if he moves simply replace him back in his spot, if he hesitates click and treat! Until eventually he's learned standing is all that's required. Repeat this gradually moving away from him and in different directions. This is a tough skill to learn so be patient with it. It took my mare 3 sessions of 5-10 minutes to get this to the point where I could walk a full circle around her about 5 feet away from her and she would stand still. It took about 2-3 more sessions to get it so that we could be walking or trotting and she'd halter at the word 'stand' (even if I kept going!) 
I find 'Stand' is a valuable skill for any horse to learn well, especially horses prone to getting out of the paddock or avoiding being caught. Especially if there's some positive reason for them to want to stand - like something yummy.

You are MORE than reasonable to expect your horse to respect your personal space - no horse, no matter how they're trained should be allowed to put you in danger. My mare has spooking issues - the first thing she learned was that she can spook and gallop and buck all day long - under 1 condition, she does it well enough Away from me! Even if she's got to go closer to the scary object first to get around me to get away from it - she darn well better. Space invasion is never acceptable.

So that's what you can do to fix your horse's pushiness - be consistent and patient and it will go well. Only reward what you want to see more of. Never give him food without him being respectful. My horses are all taught they only get their food if they stand patiently a few steps away from me and stay there until I'm clear of their stall (or area outside) - for all their hay and grain feedings - no matter what. 


OR the alternate approach to dealing with a pushy/aggressive horse is to carry a stick or something that does have more 'bite' than you do. A few solid whacks will get him away from your space. But it sounds to me like you want him respecting you but also have trouble getting him to want to be with you - hitting with a stick isn't a great way of making that happen. 

Once he's standing solidly and leading politely you can practice leading him away from his friends, clicking and treating when he's focused on you. Or you can wait until you have a place to work him. 
Don't you have a smaller area fenced off from the herd? If it's too small to work him in it you can simply put him in it and let him fuss and deal until he's calm, when he's calm you can go in and just groom him - do something nice, then return him to his buddies (so long as he stays good). Repeat this regularly. But again I think this will make him further resent being caught by you - if you're just going to pull him away from his friends. Make sure if you do this there is hay and water in his private area, if he works himself up make sure you let him cool out appropriately. Once he no longer fusses about being pulled away from his friends you can start his work again.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

Ok, what about the stall idea, good or bad? Also, we have hat pony pen that is too small to work him in, but there's this big rock in the middle, kind of hidden that scout trips over and it's really dinging up his hooves! I'm sorry you have to keep repeating yourself, I just want to know exactly what you suggest for each individual situation. You seem to really know what you're talking about.
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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

As for stalls - I think that's a very good idea. I had a very herd bound wild pony, lived feral in a farm until she was 17 and got dumped at our rescue with her son. We left her out with her son, trained him up fairly well but the mare was just to terrified and too herd bound to really do anything with. 
We started stalling her at night - like magic she got over being herd bound and now LOVES her stall. When it's time to go in she comes running to the gate to be brought in. It best if he gets any of his grain meals in there. That same pony has sense been clicker trained by a 13 y/o girl who has her doing all sorts of tricks and games - loading on trailers and doing obstacle courses xD

The first few nights might be tough on him, it's best if he's stalled in a barn where there are other animals stalled within sight or hearing distance - is that the case? I personally prefer all my animals stalled inside at night time - I see lots of animal prints in the snow sometimes, I'd prefer my horses not meet up with many of them that often  But many other people like the idea of horses turned out 24/7 that's a personal preference.

As for the big rock in the middle - do you have a big bucket you could put over it and hold down with something heavy so he can't flip it off?

I still think that my first suggestions are the better options - if you can do that I would suggest trying it first.
Here's a video of some early work I was doing with my mare, quality isn't great but I work on a few different things.
The first I do is just reinforce her treat taking - I had allowed her to get a little pushy, she had trouble taking treats gently (liked to engulf my whole hand). So you'll see my take the food away or not offer it when she gets a little pushy, then reward for her being respectful. Then I move on to her backing up to get the C+T. (you may notice her pawing a lot, she's actually kicking at her belly, she had serious sweet itch and her belly was so miserably itchy - so she's not actually being bad when she was doing that).
The next thing in the video is working on touching her target - I used this to teach her how to lead at the proper distance and pace (and getting her to trot) and working on getting her comfortable with 'scary' things and going new places, like trailers. 
For the next few minutes we were out of sight (sorry) she was working on getting comfortable in that side of the paddock. She was horrified and wouldn't go over there for anything, even when she was let alone. When I did lead her over there it was met with her very focused on everything but me, ready to burst and gallop off at any time, but the target really kept her focused on what I was asking of her. It gave her a clear task to focus on and a clear place to put herself (not in my space). So you can stop there  there's nothing really else to see xD


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

There aren't any other horses being stalled right now, but there are 20+ barn cats. This brings me to another question. Can these cats make my horse sick? They have clearly never seen a vet and are sooooooooo antisocial. The BO truly doesn't care weather they love or die and told me I could bring up food if I wanted, but that she refused to feed them because they're all so flea infested and god only knows what other problems they have. Can they pass worms onto Scout? Horses have been kept there before and were absolutely fine. The cats mostly stay away from everyone and all the animals, but I just want to be sure! Also, I'm pretty sure they have a mule they keep in the barn, bt no other horses currently. Will cats be buddy enough for him if I'm wrong about the mule? I honestly dot go in there very often so I don't know what other animals there are.
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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

A mule would be great, I have some horses who just love kitty cats, but others who don't acknowledge them. While he could deal with a stall alone - I think it's best to play it by ear. Bring him in it with hay and water and see if he settles in. That's gonna just be one of those things you gotta decide for yourself.

I don't know if any thing can be carried between cats and horses - but I imagine it would be tough to get something. If you maintain his worming schedule and everything you should be fine. I personally don't worm my horses often, I get fecals done regularly and only ever worm if they have something in excess - I've only had to do them once or twice sense I got them - once when I got them and once when we moved. But in the case of your horse who's subject to other horses coming and going and other animals carrying things I would maintain a strict rotation schedule for worming and vaccines.


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## Sydda (Oct 8, 2012)

My moms a vet tech, so we deworm religiously! She just works with cats and dogs and knows there can s stuff transmitted between the two, she wasn't sure about horses though. I'll have to talk to my parents and see if they'll let me stay up there for a few hours after dark to make sure he's ok by himself. He's been in a stall before his old barn, but never while I've owned him. Are there any signs I should look for to indicate he'll freak out and try to kick the door down? The farm is on a busy road, so him getting out is not an option.
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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

If he's really herd bound he'll probably circle his stall a whole bunch, call to his friends a lot, maybe kick the door a bit. But I think you're over thinking everything (I have this issue too). We (Stereotypically) call this "Arabian Mare Syndrome" - they're very smart horses but have a tendency to over-think everything until it becomes really scary - even just a light breeze.

If you're concerned about him getting out leave his halter and a short rope on it and be nearby to try and catch him if you can. Or you could reinforce the door in some way.


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