# Help 17yr old Beginer Train Agressive Gelding?



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Hi Zip,

I will try to refrain from all the behaviors you warned me not to do. I don't think I usually approach posts with a mind to lavish critisism on folks, but I do have to say that you have placed a lot of limitations on how people can respond to you. sounds like you got burned really bad on that other forum. I hope you will find what you need here.

I respect your policy of taking on an animal and standing by the committment. I wouldn't tell you to get rid of the colt. Is he gelded now?

I do think, that you may have to admit that the way you have dealt with him up til now is the reason he has become pushy and aggressive. So, what to do now?

Your explanation of using the rope to move him off is good. If you actually hit him, try to make it so that it is HE who moves into the moving propeller. If you are approaching him and making signals for him to move off/away using your body language and your voice, and he isn't responding, then get the propelleof going and just walk into him . If you are worried that so doing would put you at risk of being kicked, then take the line and let it snake out and bite him , but only after you have told him to move off . That being said, you don't have to tell, tell, beg, tell, ask. Just signal, "hey, move over!" and if he doesn't respond, then shake him up a bit. Next time he should respond to the warning. I guess my point is that you are trying to sensitize him to body signals of "move away" so it's important that you start each encounter by using those signals, back it up with the propeller or crop IF NEEDED, but promptly, and if not needed, then use the smaller signals. Work toward using only the mildes of body language, but start out with a bang to get his attention.

I would personally remain openminded about having a trainer give you some hands on help while you reshape this youngster's mind. It's tricky and you could make him a "mean" horse. 

Good luck on the forum. I look forward to hearing more of your adventures.


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## ShezaCharmer (Mar 13, 2010)

Tinyliny explained what you should do very well. 

I would also like to add please be careful and getting help from a trainer every once in a while will always help. I reccomend reading up on Clinton Andersons methods of training because he deals with problem horses very well. 

Do you happen to have a round pen? If so try some exercises in there. Such as lunging and accepting pressure. 

Best of Luck and I hope you get some good advice from other members.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

You are on the right track. Keep reading and asking. If you have any horsey friends, spend as much time as you can watching and listening. Don't take every piece of advise directly to heart -- think about it, work it through what you have read and learned from others. All of us are horse-experts, but it's funny how some are more successful with their animals than others. 

As another piece of training advice, keep the attitude of YOUR SPACE and YOU'RE the boss at all times; feeding, grooming, tacking, walking, visiting... Don't let him do anything that you haven't asked for or invited. You have to "undo" his past experiences of getting away with stuff so there is no room for lovey-dovey-cuddly unless YOU initiate it; not that you allow, but that you initiate.

As you have noticed, it's all psychological. You absolutely can not out-pull a horse. You must out-maneuver him. In a herd, horses don't often communicate with physical contact, it's mostly physical postering. Keep that in mind.

Good luck.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi Zip,

I hope anything you may take in my post as 'criticism' is taken as constructive, because that's how I intend it:wink:. First thing, it's obvious you have been learning, in theory at least, a lot since you got him. That is great... keep it up! It also sounds like you have a responsible attitude towards your animals. I agree wholeheartedly that animals should never be treated as a replaceable commodity & respect your view on not wanting to 'get rid' of him. However, at the same time, assuming you find him a good home, I don't think there should be any shame or guilt on you if you decide he's too much for you & would be in better hands elsewhere. IMO it takes a lot of skill to deal with 'problem' horses, especially ones with 'assertive' personalities, and they're far easier to stuff up further than they are to 'fix' in the wrong hands.

Whether or not you choose to do most of the training yourself, I would definitely consider getting some help from a *good* trainer, if you can find one, because while you can learn most of the theories & principles of training through books & vids, it just doesn't compare with hands-on help. Regarding skills such as animal training, especially when talking 'correcting' problem behaviour, IMO there is simply a limit to how far you can go learning from theory alone. 



> the owner leading us to believe he has been broken (I should have realized by his age. I know) When we got him home he was fairley well behaved, but the longer we had him, the more is behavioural problems began to shine through. We contacted the old owner and she told us that once I got him gelded they would all go away,


Actually I don't agree with doing it at all, but some people do 'break' horses at very young ages, so the previous owner wasn't necessarily lying about that. Also some horses do 'miraculously' change once gelded, even if it's done at that age. Him getting more 'rude' may also have been to do with his age & basic personality, but I would also consider that if he got progressively worse since being with you, then no offense meant, but it is highly likely that you were at least contributing to his learning of the wrong lessons. Not to worry - we all make mistakes. The important thing is to analyse & learn from them.




> very agressive 3 year old that challenges me for dominance every day. Crowding my space, nipping at my cloths, trying to shake me down for food. He also appears to be really jealous of the other farm animals, if we go out to the pig and pay attention to him the gets really agressive, running and bucking around the field, and trying to block us from leaving the barnyard. He also dosn't like new people coming into the barnyard. My cousin went into the barnyard for the first time, and he chased her out of the barnyard.


Of course I don't know the horse aside from what you've told & he may well be aggressive too, but none of the above sounds particularly aggressive to me. Not necessarily about 'dominance challenges' either. Crowding, nipping clothes, mugging you for food are all just behaviours that the horse may just do because it works for him &/or he's never been taught not to. So many horses you meet can be well trained in relation to being ridden, but are very 'rude' on the ground simply because no one's ever taught them effectively this is not acceptable behaviour with humans. I think it's amusing that he gets jealous of you giving other animals attention & throws a 'tantie' (yes, I agree jealousy's not an emotion confined to humans IME!), but running & bucking isn't 'aggressive', it's just 'horse'.



> and when I tried crowding my space again *he was hit in the nose* and ran away from me kicking. He tried kicking towards me once but I hit him with the rope again and told him "No" and he backed away from me and hasn't since tried crowding my space or nipping at me. I assume I've made it clear to him that I'm the dominant one? but how do I progress from here?


I would not assume at all that he sees you as 'the dominant one' because of this. His kicking out at you for one, leads me to suspect the opposite - he may see you as the impudent underling in need of discipline. I basically agree with Tiny too & think it's a good *general* tactic, BUT depending on their personality & especially if they are a 'dominant' type, horses can become truly aggressive if treated with force & physical punishment. They may perceive it as a dominance challenge, so rise to the occasion, seeing as you're obviously up for it. So IMO it may not be appropriate for your horse, at least at this time. 

The bit in bold of your quote above is a very important principle, as has already been pointed out - if punishment is to be used, try to set it up so he perceives it that *he* ran into the pressure & *got himself hit*, rather than you lashing out at him. 

Also keep in mind that effective punishment can *weaken* behaviour, but doesn't actually tend to stop it. For that it takes consistency and ensuring the behaviour NEVER works for the animal. Therefore, don't let your guard down & assume you've dealt with him once and for all. I think of punishment more as a 'tool' that may be necessary to keep you safe & buy you more time while you teach the Right behaviours.

With a horse that is 'rude' and maybe domineering I would personally start out with a fence in between(for safety) and teach him some Good manners with the use of reward, before/more so than focussing on just correcting the Bad manners. Teach him what you DO want first & make sure that works(is reinforced) for him. Learning the principles of 'clicker training' will help you learn how to effectively teach him what you want.

Best wishes & keep us posted!
​​


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

Heres my policy, I have *respectful, quiet, happy horses*.

Biting = Smack
Nipping (NOT lipping, but NIP) = Smack
Crowding (aggressively) = Smack
Kicking = Smack
Bumping with nose = Smack

An aggressive horse is one that (usually) has not been taught to respect humans. Bring a lunge whip into the yard with you, if he tries to be aggressive _nail him HARD on the shoulder or hindquarter_. Do NOT think that 'oh thats cruel'. Considering the sheer force behind a horses hoof, and how they blatantly kick each other, you with your little stick is nothing. The point is to make yourself BIG and MEAN and WORTHY OF RESPECT.

Another tactic to be used (especially if he comes at you with ears pinned) is to catch him off guard. Pop out a plastic bag, or cans filled with rocks or beads. Don't hit him with it, pop it out in a sudden fashion. This will make a horse backpedal so fast it will make your head spin. Stomp, puff up, and yell. Make yourself big.

Put a halter or cavesson and a lunge line on him. Make him work, reward good behavior but be aggressive about bad behavior. If he kicks, pop him with the lunge whip. If he refuses, yell, scream, and _make him go_. 


I do not sugar coat aggressive behavior with treats or pretend like it can be solved with gentleness. _I absolutely do not tolerate it_. 
I've gone through a broken back, a torn knee that's _retorn_ several time. Another knee that locks, and general body pain. I cannot allow aggressive behavior because it could put me into a wheel chair, kill me, or permanently cripple me. I take aggression and I napalm it before it can bloom into a difficult to kill weed. 

Loki, my dear Foxtrotter gelding, had started aggressive head bumping after I finally brought him home. He did it once to me and once to my dad. I nailed him *hard* upside the nose the second he dared such behavior. My dad did the same. 
He is not head shy, people shy, or halter shy. 
He was quite frankly startled at such an aggressive response. He bumped, I smacked, then I went about what I was doing before. Feeding, giving treats, kisses, and scratching necks. Acted like nothing at all happened. He tried it on my dad the next day, has never done it since.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi twogeldings, 

Generally speaking, I think most differences of opinion in training come down to 'each to their own', and it's obvious you & I have very different approaches & understandings about attitudes & behaviours. I got the feeling a lot of what you've said was directed at my response, rather than generally to OP, so am responding to that...



twogeldings said:


> Biting = Smack
> Nipping (NOT lipping, but NIP) = Smack
> Crowding (aggressively) = Smack
> Kicking = Smack
> ...


Firstly, as I tried to explain, I'm by no means against punishment and it often works, but I think it's important to understand & consider it's 'cons' as well as it's 'pros', that it's not the only and I don't believe necessarily the best option. Considering a 'dominant' type personality horse, and as you have said, considering how horses kick eachother, a little 'rudeness' can become major & dangerous aggression if you just try to meet it head on, as the horse rises to your perceived challenge. In that situation I'd rather pit my brains against the horses.

'Respect' is also one of those ambiguous terms that means vastly different things to different people & in my definition of the term doesn't include meanness or fear. I don't want my horse to be frightened of me and earning their trust is so important IMO. 



> I do not sugar coat aggressive behavior with treats or pretend like it can be solved with gentleness. _I absolutely do not tolerate it_.
> I've gone through a broken back,.... I cannot allow aggressive behavior because it could put me into a wheel chair, kill me, or permanently cripple me. I take aggression and I napalm it before it can bloom into a difficult to kill weed.


I agree fully with every single thing you say above(except the broken back:-(). Horses are big, potentially dangerous animals and we need to effectively teach them to be safe(r). Only difference is while I don't 'pretend like it can be solved with gentleness', it's because I _know_ it often can & don't believe(pretend?) confrontation is always appropriate or best. I find approaching it from a different angle & focussing on reinforcing the horse for what you *want* rather than having to 'correct' what you don't want means that 'gentleness' is generally all that's required - it's not necessary to get into a confrontation in the first place generally. *Not that I won't do whatever it takes to be safe & effective when necessary, just see it more as a backup/emergency measure.


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## ScharmLily (Nov 23, 2009)

I agree wholeheartedly with the above post. Not using violence to train does not mean that there are no negative consequences for undesirable behavior, it just means that we can use our brains to set it up that the horse is uncomfortable when they are doing the wrong thing, and comfortable when they are doing the right thing. My take on the situation is, if you are of the mentality "look at what horses do to eachother when they kick, bite, etc., a person can not possibly use that much force so therefore whipping/hitting is not abuse" then how will this method even be effective? In the wild, a horse would not step down to a less powerful rival. Like has been stated, you will never win a physical fight with a horse; that is why we need to use our brains to create a situation that the horse can not win by being aggressive, and this does not often come from fighting force with (lesser) force.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

The reason for suggesting you bring a trainer (or very experienced friend) in on this is so that both you and the horse can move forward SAFELY with training. 

Do you know how to lunge a horse? Do you have a round pen? Have you read any good books (Mary Twelveponies comes to mind immediately) and have you laid out a PLAN to train your horse with goals? These are things you need to know or have to get started. 

We often concentrate, in animal training, on what behaviors we want an animal to STOP doing.. instead of deciding what we want them to do instead and training that. That being said, I never tolerated bad ground manners in ANY horse. What do you WANT this horse to do, starting with groound manners? IOW's if you want to train the horse to stand quietly for grooming, then you need to ask how to do that. Break your goals down into little parts so that you can ask and learn each part and put it together into a whole. 

I am sure you have heard that a Green Rider and a Green horse are a bad color combination. You have this here.. and really you need someone there with you to help you _READ THE HORSE _and showing you how to appropriately react without anyone getting hurt. 

The internet is full of information and mis-information and really.. at this point.. and for your own safety and the safety of the horse an experienced person to HELP you firs hand would be an invaluable aid (and a much safer approach). 

Do you have any hands on friends who have experience and success (the last is very important) training young horses that could help you get started?


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I find some of the above posts frightening in the hands of a beginner. IMO, there are certain horse behaviors that are "deal breakers", and when these happen, immediate assertiveness is necessary on the part of the handler or the behavior will continue, and possibly escalate. These would include, but not be limited to, striking, kicking, biting. Having owned a truly aggressive horse in the past, I will tell you that there are times that you must whack them. I am a firm believer in the "3 second rule". This means that if my horse PURPOSELY (and you can tell by demeanor, etc) attacks me I have 3 seconds to react in a very decisive manner. To me that means that by whatever means necessary they will understand VERY CLEARLY that their behavior is not acceptable. Frankly, it is the first thing that comes to my mind at the moment. If it means I smack them with my hand, so be it. If they cowkick me-they usually meet the toe of my boot. if the try to kick me, they typically meet the lunge whip, end of the lead, whatever. I am not saying to beat them, but they have to have a clear signal right then. Act instantly, then forget it and move on, just as they do.

Again, if it is me or them-it will not be me if I have any say in the matter. 
A beginner is at a distinct disadvantage, since there are signals we all learn over the years from our horses that certain behaviors will follow. These signals allow us to avert the behavior before it happens in many cases. As a "newbie" you have to act on what the horse is doing and learn the signals as you go. 

To the OP-get some good videos of different trainers-Clinton Anderson is a good one, and his videos address how to handle a horse that isn't doing as you are asking, more than some of the others, I think. However, please do stay open to the idea of someone to help you. As has been stated many times on other threads here, there may be the slightlest thing about your stance, body language, etc, that is sending the wrong signals. You may not be aware of it and it can be really frustrating. Another set of eyes helps with this.

Good luck and stay safe.:wink:


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I think the situation you presented us with is an impossible one. You have eliminated every solution that might work.

I think for you to think you can correct a spoiled horse that you spoiled is very much like buying a 17 year old an airplane and telling them to learn to "fly it by yourself". Most people have more good common sense than that. 

Just remember this (and then I am out of here because I am not going to contribute to you or your colt's demise):

Any trainer with any amount of knowledge can put all kinds of good schooling INTO a horse's head. 

NO TRAINER, no matter how accomplished they are, can TAKE ANYTHING OUT of a horse's head.

They are not like practicing a math problem on a slate. You cannot erase your wrong equations.

Now, I'M gone.


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## Zip (Feb 7, 2011)

Thanks for the advice guys,

After re-reading my original post, and reading your responces I feel the need to make some things clear. The rope method was more for my own comfort, and I have no intend on basing my whole training around this one method *"try to make it so that it is HE who moves into the moving propeller." *That is exactly what I've been doing 

I have 5 acres of land, and where he is currently, is mostly uneven ground so we don't feel comfortable building a round pen there. But come this summer we are clearing our clover field (I heard clover is potentially deadly to horses) and going to start building a round pen. In our barnyard we have 3 buildings, and 2 outdoor shelters. Another issue we have with him, is he always wants to be watching us. If I go out to the barn (locks from the outside) I close the door behind me, we will keep pushing the door open with his nose, he wont step in, but he wants the door to be open.

All in all, he really is a good horse. He comes when called and stands and will let me remove his halter and put it back on (we keep it on him at all times) he even will stand and let us tack him up, and groom him with NO problems what so ever. So I really don't know where these outbursts of kicking come from. My biggest problem with him right now, is he wont let me pick his feet up, and will sometimes fight me if I try to lead him. My dad can lead him, but I can't without a fight. I never let him win though, I continue holding my pressure untill he moves forward with me, then release it when I get the right responce, but he still tries to fight me.

Since using the rope he's started to watch me more. I usually have to touch his chest when asking him to move, but since using the rope I just have to walk straight into him and he will move for me, I can even ask him to "Back up" from a distance! 

It's only been a week and a half and I'm already seeing a big change


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Keep up the good work-I would just warn you about leaving a halter on at all times. Please just make sure it is either a leather halter or a "break away" so that he cannot get hung up on anything and get hurt.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I was in your shoes, Zip. I got 2 yearlings one very dominant and I was a complete beginner to horse ownership. :wink: The problem with the beginners (me including) is that they are afraid to be firm (VERY firm at times), because horse "will not forget", "will be afraid", etc. While it IS true for some horses (like punishing my paint won't do any good at all), for truly dominant aggressive horses all this "kindness" will be nothing but invitation to go worse and worse. 

I went with Clinton Anderson method for while (but again it didn't work well on my paint, but worked greatly on my dominant qh). When she tried to charge me in ring she was let run into the stick and then moving her feet around me. And yes, as TwoGeldings already pointed out they get firm "no" and smack when they violate the rules.

The only thing I want to add on top of it is that if you want to train the horse to the particular discipline, unless you are a great rider in that discipline I'd suggest to take lessons with the good trainer together with your horse.


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

loosie said:


> Only difference is while I don't 'pretend like it can be solved with gentleness', it's because I _know_ it often can & don't believe(pretend?) confrontation is always appropriate or best. I find approaching it from a different angle & focussing on reinforcing the horse for what you *want* rather than having to 'correct' what you don't want means that 'gentleness' is generally all that's required - it's not necessary to get into a confrontation in the first place generally. *Not that I won't do whatever it takes to be safe & effective when necessary, just see it more as a backup/emergency measure.


What I mean by 'solving it by gentleness' is you can't go tiptoeing around, _asking_ the horse not to aggressively get into your space/bite/etc. :wink: I knew of one filly who would literally kick you through the fence because she could. Her owners did nothing, preferring to tip toe around her. Thankfully, the trainer they sent her to didn't put up with it and corrected her kicking quick. 

_Don't_ go whipping and abusing your horse, of course! But a tap on the nose probably isn't going to have the same effect as a smack and a yell. I never 'punish twice', I correct the aggressive behavior, then go about what I was doing before. 

I always encourage good behavior, but I deal with _aggressive_ behavior swiftly and sharply. If a horse invades my space because it doesn't _know any better_, then I'm not going to punish them, I'm going to teach it otherwise in a quiet and gentle manner. 
My colt Red had that problem, he just didn't understand the concept of "This is my bubble, this is your bubble". He's still very friendly and likes to be around you, but doesn't crowd you. 

I train with encouragement and gentleness and ask the horse to push it's boundaries. Never with force or pain


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## Zip (Feb 7, 2011)

I'd also like to mention, that there is a women who lives a little ways up the road from me and claims to "Train Horses" I often walk my little cousin up there because he's friends with her son. And she's always offering to help me out with Tonto. But my family has heard alot of bad about them, we've been told that all of thier horses were bought trained except for 3 and those three have put them both in hospital before, plus they wont come down to work with him, they want us to leave him with her and we don't feel comfortable doing that. I also know of another women who offered to help with tonto, but again, I don't know how reliable she is either because she allowed tonto to chase he out of the field...


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Lots of people claim themselves "trainer". Which doesn't make them one.

P.S. I don't mean working with own horse, but training horse to be gentle, safe, and reliable for others for money.


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## jesredneck98 (Dec 11, 2009)

I want to start off saying that I hope you have the best of luck with this horse and get the outcome that you are looking for. I too would like to know if this horse has since been gelded? If not do it NOW or forever have problems unless you seek outside help. 

1. You say that you have little experience what is little experience? Most likely a lot of these problems that you are having now sound like problems you have not have caused but didn't help either. If you are hand feeding your horse STOP, treats, food anything STOP altogether if you want to give a treat put it in a bucket on the floor in with his feed or whatever but stop hand feeding. This will help with the nipping and then go on from correcting if he nips. Nips lead to BITING. I wish I had a picture with me of when my horse bit me in the breast it was the LAST time she ever thought about doing that. All these little things add up. I am worried that if you are not a trainer or have never trained a horse it is going to be very difficult for you to train a horse let alone one who is hard headed. 

2. The next thing is that I am worried about is when you try to start riding this horse that you won't have or know how to train him properly and this takes skill. If you don't train him correctly and teach him well you will have horrible habits and they will be harded to get rid of in the long run. This is why trainers are great. I understand that you want to do it and you don't want to give up on him and that is in NO way what I am saying but sometimes you have to ask for help so that NO one gets hurt or worse. I know that when I say that you could be injured by this horse this is not news to you. But many of us horse owners think that the horse can't do anything wrong and we baby them and let them get away with certian behaviors which is about he worst thing we could do. 

I would reccomend getting a trainer to help you or somewhere that you could send the horse for a month or whatever it takes, because in the long run it will save you many problems down the road and you won't be giving up or failing him but you will have a proper horse that you will not have to worry about as much of hurting you. 

I don't want to drag you down or do all the things that you said not to do on here but just as these people baby you and treat you with kid gloves it's not honest. So I do wish you and your horse the best of luck and I would love to hear that things are going great for the both of you but there needs to be some reality involved. GOOD LUCK!


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## Tejas (Jan 31, 2011)

*First of all- it takes a lot to admit that you've made a mistake. I'm sorry that you haven't really been able to be excited about your new baby. This is going to be a long day by day journey for you and your colt. Patience is going to be the main key here. You will need to stay as open minded as possible and accept the constructive advice people hand to you. I agree with getting the help of a trainer. I have a 5 yr old very large gelding who will arrive on Saturday. He is only halter broken. I have had to hire a trainer for my own safety, and my new horse's safety as well. It's going to take some $ out of my savings, but in the long run it's a good investment for the both of us. I would build a trust bond with him and a daily routine. He will come around. Start watching videos and reading about ground work. Teach him how to respect you. I wish you luck and please be careful!! *


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## Zip (Feb 7, 2011)

Jesredneck98; Yes, as the title suggests he has been gelded. I don't recall ever saying I have "Little Experience" Just that I am a beginner. I'd also like to say that I don't baby him at all, I used to hand feed him treats, but thats going to stop.

I know it's going to take a while, and I have no problem with that. I am willing to continue working with him as long as it takes. If anyone could offer some methods for getting him to lift his feet, and walk quietly with me that would be great. He'll walk with me fine until I put the lead rope on him. And when it comes to lifting his feet, he will lift them but imediatly jerk them out of my hands. 

I'd also like some advice about tying. I've only tied him up a few times and all of these times he freaked out and fell/almost fell, I'm afraid of him injuring himself more than me, and I don't know how to keep him calm, other then standing and stroking him the whole time...


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## summerjoyce (Feb 8, 2011)

Hey there Zip - new to this forum but, been lurking for a while. I have had some similar issues as yourself and am learning as I go with some help from the trainer at my barn.
My ottb who is just 4 used to get quite nippy and, at times, when he felt aggravated, for whatever reason, would pin his ears and try to nip at me. A few smacks never seemed to alleviate the entire problem..I escalate, he would escalate. Since he has been laid up due to an injury and just plain horrible weather, I have started clicker training. yes, it seems to take a while but, it has definitely made a difference. I click and reward with a treat and I have been able to teach him how to be nice. it is possible. He doesn't maul me whatsoever when I clean his stall, he is actually most happy when we do his clicker training every morning. It is definitely not the end all be all of training but, I have found that it is a nice accompanyment to any training program. I think that you would be able to to use this method for the picking up the feet thing. Just remember, how do you think he knows what you want? If you didn't teach him he must not know. I Agree that truly bad behavior needs to be dealt with swiftly but, I think that you may need to assume he knows nothing and the only way to get there is in miniscule bits and pieces. Check out the book "getting to yes"
As for the tying issue...I've not had that issue so I can't comment.
All I know is that training is more than a 5 minute trick and that every day you are with your horse you are either training or untraining them. Stay consistent so he knows which rules to play by so, he doesn't start making up his own rules...Oh yeah, and young horses are like having a 3 year old petulent child at times. Ugh.:shock:
Good luck and stay safe.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

Im sorry and I know its not what you want to hear but I really agree with getting a trainer. I adopted Hunter at 18 months and figured I could train him by myself. We used to train/break horses when I was younger, but we would basically just get on and ride. Anyhoo Hunter was a pretty good boy, needed to be gelded AND have a hernia operation, but he had/has a food aggression from when he was a baby and had to fight for his food. He charged at me teeth bared when I was trying to look at his stitches while he was eating, scared the crap outta me. I moved him to a new barn as he wasn't being properly looked after where he was and we were basically on our own, as I left my knowledgeable friends behind. Things were ok but then as he was growing his attitude got worse and worse (mostly my fault), he would try and charge me when lunging, would not listen and his nipping was getting worse. I tried to read books and study trainers to get help but finally ended up getting a trainer in,(she is also my farrier). I sent Hunter to her for a month and then since then have continued training sessions first starting with her riding etc and now me with her teaching and it has made a vast improvement. There are so many things that she knows from years of training that I would never even have thought of. It is so worth it. Hunter is now just 3 and while he still tries things once in a while I have learned how to deal with him and he has a huge new respect for me.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

A beginner is someone with little experience and other way round.

Just because he comes when called and you can halter and unhalter him, does not constitute a good horse, just means for whatever reason it suits him at that moment to do that.

You say you want advice, but you don't want to hear anything that goes against what you want to do, no matter how based in common sense, or any of our past experiences, which is why I imagine you got the response you did from another forum.

You need to toughen up, with your mental attitude, and your physical one also, and quit letting him call the shots. And leaning or applying pressure to the lead rope until he moves, is not teaching him anything at all. More than likely he is feeling like he has taught you, rather than the other way around.

You can either untrack him, or make him move with a whip, but just applying pressure is not going to teach him to lead.

The crowding you for the feed, is also something I would expect you have "taught" him, by moving away after the feed is put down, making him feel like he has "run" you off "your" feed, and he is dominant over you. Something as simple and low key as standing your ground, and growling at him when he approaches you or the feed, and making him back off, will do a lot to change this.

And he is not jealous either. He is merely showing, by running people/things/whatever out of "his" space, that he is in charge. And by not correcting him during these displays? You are making them worse, and potentially more dangerous each time it happens.

He is taking his feet away from you because he can, nipping at you because he can, threatening you because he can.

Until you change your handling of him? Even a trainer will not be able to correct this, not for you to handle him. Those of us with much experience with horses, all know horses that are no problem to handle, until their owner shows up, and then the horse is a raving and dangerous lunatic.

Stop feeling so timid, and get some backbone about you, and deal with this horse like you would an annoying little brother, or cousin, or what have you. Get a spine, get determined, and let it show in your walk and in your dealings with him. Quit babying him and yourself, and if you are a "chit chatter" type person, shut up, and tell him only what it is you want, whether is it "move over" or "back up" or "stop it" and mean it. Don't praise him, or love on him, be businesslike. 

This horse is not your friend, or a lap dog, and horses do not work for praise generally, and the ones that have this attitude, never will until that is changed.

And I would imagine that the consensus of the experienced horse people on here, is much the same as the other forum, that you need to get a trainer to work with you or that you can learn from, on ways to handle yourself around horses, and to work with this horse before he hurts you.


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## Buckcherry (Nov 18, 2010)

I agree with the getting some clinton anderson videos. And they also have brief videos on Youtube. He's no nonsense and explains things great. Also He can be quite funny at times. 
I wouldn't be closed minded about the trainer either, because they can teach you things or show you different ways actually hands on rather than us explaining it over the internet or watching videos. I've been riding for 15 years and I'm going to a trainer with my 6 yr old TB. Because I want to learn more and I want to teach him the right way. There is nothing wrong with learning from someone else. And not all trainers want you to leave the horse with them. I trailer my horse for my lessons. 

With the picking up the hoofs issue I learned a trick, If you pinch the chestnut on the inside of the horses leg they "usually" pick their hoof up. Here a pic of what the chesnut is if your not sure 
Cowboy Bob's Questions and Answers - page 184 - Does this work or is it just an old chestnut?


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## Azale1 (Jul 5, 2010)

Exactly my thoughts and what I would do with a horse like this. 



twogeldings said:


> Heres my policy, I have *respectful, quiet, happy horses*.
> 
> Biting = Smack
> Nipping (NOT lipping, but NIP) = Smack
> ...


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## Zip (Feb 7, 2011)

Palomine; I never said that a beginner, and someone with little experience weren't the same. I was asked what I ment by "Little experiance" and was simply clarifying that I said "Beginner" not "little experience" because IMO little experience is more experience then a beginner would have.

*"leaning or applying pressure to the lead rope until he moves, is not teaching him anything at all." *Everything that I have read in books and on other forums has said that using pressure was good at working towards teaching a horse to lead right, and many other things. Holding pressure untill the desired responce, and than releasing the pressure immediatly.

I don't baby him at all, I don't walk away during feeding, and I don't treat him like a dog. I'm not timid or shy around him at all, and I don't 'chit chat' with him. I used to be shy with him, and ya, I used to walk away during feeding, but the last few months I've learnt a lot and have stopped most of my bad handling techniques (All of the ones that I've pin pointed myself, I imagine there are still a few that I haven't noticed)


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

franknbeans said:


> I find some of the above posts frightening in the hands of a beginner.


Ditto - that is one big part of my problem with trying to 'fight fire with fire' - as I've said, I don't think it's always inappropriate, but remember also the advice is for a novice & what sounds like an 'assertive' horse, so especially if she can't/won't get experienced help, she'll be safer avoiding confrontations IME.



> Having owned a truly aggressive horse in the past, I will tell you that there are times that you must whack them. I am a firm believer in the "3 second rule". This means that if my horse PURPOSELY (and you can tell by demeanor, etc) attacks me I have 3 seconds to react


You're confusing your opinions with facts above I think.(Not just you personally, but everyone advising that you MUST get aggressive, that not doing this WILL make things worse...) There are no hard & fast facts about whacking horses to be effective. Just because you don't do this doesn't mean there aren't other effective measures. Just because you felt you wanted to use that tactic doesn't mean everyone must. Having worked with far more than just one 'aggressive' horse, I agree that there may be emergencies that require reactivity on the handler's part, especially if you can't/don't set up situations to avoid them, but IME it seems that people reacting with violence is a major factor in *creating* aggressive horses & is often far from an effective 'correction' for it.

The '3 second rule' is a confusion from cognitive tests done on *dogs* that show that whatever happens - be it positive or negative, punishment or reinforcement - a dog cannot associate behaviour with consequence unless it is *within* 3 seconds *maximum*. That is, it's always best to reinforce/punish a behaviour you want to effect _at the time_ it's happening, but with _dogs_, they are generally able to work it out if it's less than 3 seconds removed. Horses are actually less able to associate abstracted consequences and your reinforcement/punishment must happen _within_ 1-2 seconds max for them to know what it's about.



> I am not saying to beat them, but they have to have a clear signal right then.


And what if they don't perceive your 'clear signal' in the way you intended? What if they get more aggressive because you are? What if they think you're wanting to play dominance games & they do too?? What if they feel the need to put you back in your place with a 'clearer signal', because you were impertinent enough not to listen to the last one??



> Again, if it is me or them-it will not be me if I have any say in the matter.


Why does it have to be either or? Why not use your bigger brain to work out how to make both of you winners?



> A beginner is at a distinct disadvantage, since there are signals we all learn over the years from our horses that certain behaviors will follow. These signals allow us to avert the behavior before it happens in many cases. As a "newbie" you have to act on what the horse is doing and learn the signals as you go.


Again, precisely one very good reason why I'd advise a beginner to try to avoid confrontations & not pick fights with a horse, because they could miss the bodylanguage that may tell them it's not a good idea at that time. Also another very good reason for a beginner to seek experienced help, rather than just muddling on with a lot of seemingly contradictory advice.



> What I mean by 'solving it by gentleness' is you can't go tiptoeing around, _asking_ the horse not to aggressively get into your space/bite/etc. :wink:


Yeah, I guessed you felt that because I suggested avoiding forceful punishment meant you thought I was advocating doing nothing or pussy footing. That's not the case at all though. It's not either punishment or nothing. As you said, I absolutely will not tolerate aggression and it is dangerous to do this. It's just that I don't treat it like you do. Many roads & all...:wink:



> If a horse invades my space because it doesn't _know any better_, then I'm not going to punish them, I'm going to teach it otherwise in a quiet and gentle manner.


Another great point, but what makes you think any of them do it and 'know better'?? Surely if they did know better, they wouldn't do it??



> I'd also like to mention, that there is a women who lives a little ways up the road from me and claims to "Train Horses"


Zip, yeah, people say all sorts. Whether or not the woman is any good, I wouldn't just listen to what she(or others who may have a grudge) say, but watch her work with other horses first, and I would never just give a trainer(whatever their apparent qualifications) a horse without seeing them work with them in front of me. 



> I don't want to drag you down or do all the things that you said not to do on here but just as these people baby you and treat you with kid gloves it's not honest.


Who are 'those people' jesredneck? BTW, with regard to hand feeding, it is not the food that makes a horse nippy, it's what behaviours we may inadvertently reinforce with it that is the problem. I actually have great success correcting behaviours such as that with the (careful) use of food. BUT I agree, considering Zip is a beginner & if she doesn't understand the principles behind learning & reinforcement, then it's a good idea to avoid it all together, until she does. 



> I don't recall ever saying I have "Little Experience" Just that I am a beginner.


So what's the difference? I think Jes was asking for more info on what that means?



> If anyone could offer some methods for getting him to lift his feet, and walk quietly with me that would be great.
> ....I'd also like some advice about tying. I've only tied him up a few times and all of these times he freaked out and fell/almost fell,


Yes, horses can get badly injured fighting being tied... and so can people & other animals in the way, especially if equipment breaks. Therefore IMO it's best not to tie a horse firm until they've learned well to yield to pressure & stand still. Using a long(at least 12') rope wrapped once around a rail, or through a gadget such as a 'Blocker Tie Ring'(google it) is a good start, once they've learned to yield to halter pressure well in other situations. 

Regarding hooves, I'm hoping they haven't just been neglected, so how does he behave for the farrier? How does the farrier behave with him? Perhaps you'd be comfortable for the farrier to teach you how to go about it. If he's any good, it'd be far better than anyone could give you on a forum. But basically, use 'approach & retreat' methods to get *gradually* closer to your goal. If you pick his foot up & he takes it back again, you're teaching & reinforcing him for the opposite of what you want. Obviously if you pick his foot up, you don't have the strength to keep it up if he refuses. So don't start there. Start at wherever you're already successful and reinforce that before asking for *gradually* more. Eg. If he will pick his foot up for you, ask him to, but don't try to hold it at all. Once he's reliable & willing at that step, then you can try holding it for a second, letting go *before* he wants to take it.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

franknbeans said:


> I find some of the above posts frightening in the hands of a beginner.


Ditto - that is one big part of my problem with trying to 'fight fire with fire' - as I've said, I don't think it's always inappropriate at all, but remember also the advice is for a novice & what sounds like an 'assertive' horse, so especially if she can't/won't get experienced help, she'll be far safer avoiding confrontations IME. Horses have much more 'brawn' than us, so IMO it's best to work it out with brain power instead.



> Having owned a truly aggressive horse in the past, I will tell you that there are times that you must whack them. I am a firm believer in the "3 second rule". This means that if my horse PURPOSELY (and you can tell by demeanor, etc) attacks me I have 3 seconds to react


You're confusing your opinions with facts above I think.(Not just you personally, but everyone advising that you MUST get aggressive, that not doing this WILL make things worse...) There are no hard & fast facts about whacking horses to be effective. Just because you don't do this doesn't mean there aren't other effective measures. Just because you felt you wanted to use that tactic doesn't mean everyone must. Having worked with far more than just one 'aggressive' horse, I agree that there may be emergencies that require reactivity on the handler's part, especially if you can't/don't set up situations to avoid them, but IME it seems that people reacting with violence is a major factor in *creating* aggressive horses & is often far from an effective 'correction' for it.

That '3 second rule' is a confusion from cognitive tests done on *dogs* that show that whatever happens - be it positive or negative, punishment or reinforcement - a dog cannot associate behaviour with consequence unless it is *within* 3 seconds *maximum*. That is, it's always best to reinforce/punish a behaviour you want to effect _at the time_ it's happening, but with _dogs_, they are generally able to work it out if it's less than 3 seconds removed. Horses are actually less able to associate abstracted consequences and your reinforcement/punishment must happen _within_ 1-2 seconds max for them to know what it's about.



> I am not saying to beat them, but they have to have a clear signal right then.


And what if they don't perceive your 'clear signal' in the way you intended? What if they get more aggressive because you are? What if they think you're wanting to play dominance games & they do too?? What if they feel the need to put you back in your place with a 'clearer signal', because you were impertinent enough not to listen to the last one?? IME this is how a lot of 'aggressive' horses are created - by people who do stuff without consideration for the specifics and how *that horse at that time* may perceive the punishment.



> Again, if it is me or them-it will not be me if I have any say in the matter.


Why does it have to be either or? Why not use your bigger brain to work out how to make both of you winners?



> A beginner is at a distinct disadvantage, since there are signals we all learn over the years from our horses that certain behaviors will follow. These signals allow us to avert the behavior before it happens in many cases. As a "newbie" you have to act on what the horse is doing and learn the signals as you go.


Again, precisely one very good reason why I'd advise a beginner to try to avoid confrontations & not pick fights with a horse, because they could miss the bodylanguage that may tell them it's not a good idea at that time. Also another very good reason for a beginner to seek experienced help, rather than just muddling on picking through a lot of seemingly contradictory advice.



> What I mean by 'solving it by gentleness' is you can't go tiptoeing around, _asking_ the horse not to aggressively get into your space/bite/etc. :wink:


Yeah, I guessed you felt that because I suggested avoiding forceful punishment meant you thought I was advocating doing nothing or pussy footing. That's not the case at all though. It's not either punishment or nothing. As you said, I absolutely will not tolerate aggression and it is dangerous to do this. It's just that I don't treat it like you do. Many roads & all...:wink:



> If a horse invades my space because it doesn't _know any better_, then I'm not going to punish them, I'm going to teach it otherwise in a quiet and gentle manner.


Another great point, but what makes you think any of them do it and 'know better'?? Surely if they did know better, they wouldn't do it??



> I'd also like to mention, that there is a women who lives a little ways up the road from me and claims to "Train Horses"


Zip, yeah, people say all sorts. Whether or not the woman is any good, I wouldn't just listen to what she(or others who may have a grudge) say, but watch her work with other horses first, and I would never just give a trainer(whatever their apparent qualifications) a horse without seeing them work with them in front of me. The other problem with your just giving a horse to someone for training is that you're still a beginner & won't know what to do any better when he's back. Best to find someone good who'll teach you both.



> I don't want to drag you down or do all the things that you said not to do on here but just as these people baby you and treat you with kid gloves it's not honest.


Who are 'these people' jesredneck? BTW, with regard to hand feeding, it is not the food that makes a horse nippy, it's what behaviours we may inadvertently reinforce with it that is the problem. I actually have great success correcting behaviours such as that with the (careful) use of food. BUT I agree, considering Zip is a beginner that if she doesn't understand the principles behind learning & reinforcement, then it's a good idea to avoid hand feeding, until she does. Zip, learning the principles of 'clicker training' will be very helpful, whether or not you choose ultimately to reintroduce hand feeding or such, and 'Don't Shoot The Dog' by Karen Pryor(not a dog book as such) is one very good little, easy to read book that will explain the principles of learning/teaching.



> I don't recall ever saying I have "Little Experience" Just that I am a beginner.


I think Jes was asking for more info on what that means to you exactly? What's the difference?



> If anyone could offer some methods for getting him to lift his feet, and walk quietly with me that would be great.
> ....I'd also like some advice about tying. I've only tied him up a few times and all of these times he freaked out and fell/almost fell,


Yes, horses can get badly injured fighting being tied... and so can people & other animals in the way, especially if equipment breaks. Therefore IMO it's best not to tie a horse firm until they've learned well to yield to pressure & stand still. Using a long(at least 12') rope wrapped once around a rail, or through a gadget such as a 'Blocker Tie Ring'(google it) is a good start, once they've learned to yield to halter pressure well in other situations. 

Regarding hooves, I'm assuming they haven't just been neglected, so how does he behave for the farrier? How does the farrier behave with him? Perhaps you'd be comfortable for the farrier to teach you how to go about it. If he's any good, it'd be far better than anyone could give you on a forum. But basically, use 'approach & retreat' methods to get *gradually* closer to your goal. If you pick his foot up & he takes it back again, you're teaching & reinforcing him for the opposite of what you want. Obviously if you pick his foot up, you don't have the strength to keep it up if he refuses. So don't start there. Start at wherever you're already successful and reinforce that before asking for *gradually* more. Eg. If he will pick his foot up for you, ask him to, but don't try to hold it at all. Once he's reliable & willing at that step, then you can try holding it for a second, letting go *before* he wants to take it.


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## draftgrl (Jan 8, 2011)

Zip, I hope for the complete best with you and your horse! 

As for the not wanting to lead, yes, using pressure and release is good, but you need to get the horses feet moving! You are NOT going to win a tug of war with a 1000 lb animal. Get a driving whip and when you lead him and he does not move either pretend to lounge him or carry the whip in your left hand and tap him on the hip or as close as you can get, and increase the amount of force until he listens. With his lack of respect as I'm going to call it you may need to start out and "ask" and if no response go to a very assertive move.

You will find what you like for training methods, mix and match, no one person on here is 100% correct. Take both the positive and negitive points made about you and you're horse, it will help in the long run.

Clinton Anderson has a good method for horses who dont like to be tied, I have always done the old cowboy way, but Clinton uses a not tied kinda method where the rope WILL give to the horse so when they reach a point where they aint scared anymore, they are still tied (looong rope required)

Aside from Clinton Anderson, look up Monte Roberts, Pat Perelli (not a massive fan myself but he does have good points) Craig Cameron ( I like him too)

Franknbeans has the same rule as i do, you have 3 seconds to disapline or reward for a certian behiavor. Just make sure you keep your safety in mind first.

Again good luck!!
OH P.S. I also recommend getting a trainer or knowledgable friend to HELP you i know my spelling is off but you get the point


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Lots of advice here.. some good.. some not so much... 

One thing that has been repeated over and over is you do need someone experienced to help you out. There is no shame or fury in getting someone experienced to guide you. No one was born knowing this stuff. 

The best thing to gain experience is a well trained, older horse that will help you (my first horse was a genius when I was 13 and a beginner and about as dumb as a mud fence). You don't have that.. so you need to have a well trained and experienced human to help. 

I will add it is probably easier to find the former than the latter (tho both are more rare than you can believe).


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Zip said:


> Palomine; I never said that a beginner, and someone with little experience weren't the same. .... because IMO little experience is more experience then a beginner would have.


Contradicting there. How about forgetting semantics & telling us WHAT experience & knowledge you have already? That way we may be able to offer you more relevant stuff to go on with.... or tell you where the bottom is, so you can start there, rather than trying to be a beginner tackling high school ideas.



> *"leaning or applying pressure to the lead rope until he moves, is not teaching him anything at all." *Everything that I have read in books and on other forums has said that using pressure was good


I agree with you there. Pressure/release(negative reinforcement) is a very effective 'tool' in training horses & is about the most common single method, so I don't get Palomine's attitude on that. Perhaps she means it shouldn't be the only method(?) tho, in which case I agree too. 

I just noticed one of your comments was something like 'I have no idea where the kicking outbursts come from'. It sounds like this boss horse is warning you to bug off basically, that punishment is imminent if you continue presuming to tell him what to do. It would also be a good idea for you to learn about equine ethology, and to find someone good to help you learn to read your horse's bodylanguage, so you can recognise the messages & signs your horse is giving you, to know better why, when, how... IMO a lot of training skill comes down to effective communication with the horse, and how can you communicate if you don't understand their 'language' or how they think?


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

I have some serious concerns here, but given the limitations, I'll keep my mouth shut. That said, I don't blame you as much as I do your parents. If you've owned him for 21/2 years and you are 17 now, then they bought him when you were, what, 14-15? What parent in their right mind buys a long yearling for their inexperienced child?

Get a trainer for BOTH you and your horse. Bottom line is you cannot teach a horse what you don't know. FWIW, a rope should be a safer (for you) extension of your hand…if you don't intend to hit him in the face, then don't swing the rope high (over your head like a helicopter). You have me actually cringing at the thought of it. If you want him to move, tell him so and then swing/twirl the rope towards his hips/butt…step to the side if you have to, but don't hit him in the face. Also, I'd get out of the habit of saying "no" - it's too much like "whoa/ho".

And I too would like to know if you have any experience at all prior this horse.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Horse Poor said:


> What parent in their right mind buys a long yearling for their inexperienced child?


An ignorant one:-|. But if there was no one around to teach them better, I can't necessarily blame them for their ignorance. I think we all agree that getting the horse in the first place was a mistake, including Zip and most likely her parents too, in hindsight. But if they didn't know better & had no one to instruct them, and it sounds like they could also have been duped by the previous owner, unless they were very ignorant too.... When I was 5yo my city slicker parents bought me a baby donkey. You could say I 'broke him in', as the breeder who sold him led my dad to believe there was nothing to training him, and my Dad just kept putting me on him until he got fed up with bucking me off. I steered him by tapping him on the ears with a stick... he was pronounced trained!


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## draftgrl (Jan 8, 2011)

OH i love that loosie!!! Thats the thing I love about horses! You CAN teach them ANYTHING you want, so long as you have the patience. 

I think with this thread we can all appreciate those who have taught us, and myself especially that I had someone to teach the safe way to handle horses as a child.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

loosie, I, on the other hand DO blame them. Why? Because once it became clear that a mistake had been made, there was no effort to correct it. THAT was a choice, a decision based not on ignorance, but on "policy", the way things are done in their family. The most responsible thing they can do is not just "own the mistake" but change what they can about it. If they have no intention of selling him, they should, at the very least, hire a trainer. If Zip continues without a trainer, she runs a very high risk of getting seriously hurt. How do you think her parents would feel then? If she keeps pushing him without knowing what she's doing or how to do it, this horse could put her in her place in a way that she may not easily recover from. Is that worth "owning a mistake"? 

It's not the pressure that teaches a horse, it's the release…this horse knows how to lead…if you read above, her dad has no problem leading him…Zip is the one who can't lead him without a fight. IMO, "the pulling until he moves forward" is actually teaching him to fight with her.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Horse Poor said:


> loosie, I, on the other hand DO blame them. Why? Because once it became clear that a mistake had been made, there was no effort to correct it.


Oh, I must have missed that bit, where Zip said they'd all done...zip about it. Yeah, IF her parents have learned better and not done anything about it, then I would call that negligence, not ignorance.



> If Zip continues without a trainer, she runs a very high risk of getting seriously hurt. How do you think her parents would feel then?


That's a no brainer of course, and I hope that IF they have learned better AND they still did/do nothing, they blame themselves rather than the horse. It's why we're all suggesting she find someone to help... & I was actually gathering from what's been said(& what hasn't) that her parents probably aren't any more knowledgeable than Zip, so not knowingly negligent.


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

Well I'm no expert but I agree with getting some sort of trainer to help. I have had a horse who was bad at leading (simply wouldn't move) and he is a very assertive boy. As I learnt pressure wouldn't do anything for him he would lean against you all day if he had to. We (my trainer and I) tried using a whip in hand to give him a whip if he didn't move forward with just pressure but this just ended with him kicking out and still not moving. We ended up doing clicker training with him for leading and he responded very well with it, he now leads very well you don't even actually have to hold him anymore. 
I have also had another horse in my care before who was very assertive (had been previously abused) and was fearful because of the abuse. She could get very violent with people because she felt them before they could hurt her. No amount of hitting with anything would make her listen you would end flat on the ground if you attempted it. She was the sort you had to be very firm with but you could not hit. She could be a very well behaved horse in the right hands with some one who understands her. So even though she was abused before I don't think smacking works on every horse if you pick a fight with them I think you'll probly lose if you pick the wrong horse.

But thats just my 2 cents


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## candandy49 (Jan 16, 2011)

Zip - There is an old saying that goes like this: "To Thine Ownself Be True". What I'm trying to say is that at any point you are uncertain of what to do as for trying to make a safer horse of your horse realize you are in over your head. If at any time fear becomes a factor in your handling/working with your horse, it is time to do some very deep, very serious soul searching. The _most important factor _is your safety and not getting seriously hurt.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Since I don't have time to go line by line thru loosies posts, let me just say we will have to agree to disagree. I rather resent the fact that she makes it sound like I beat my horses...and again, she impresses me as one who may take gentle to an extreme when you are talking about an *agressive* (OP's term) animal that weighs 10X what you do. 
We are all entitlted to our opinions. 
I would agree that someone to train you would be helpful, and help you learn. Perhaps, if your parents realize the error of their ways, they would help you with that.
Regarding pressure-it will take as much as you are willing to use. If you are willing to haul on a horse, they will be glad to brace and lean on you. If you lightly lift the rope, then reinforce with twirling the end of it or moving the whip at their butt and making them move with that-they will quickly learn to move with just the lift of a finger. You are right about rewarding the slightest effort, and releasing the pressure when they do.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Horse Poor said:


> If you've owned him for 21/2 years and *you are 17 now*, then they bought him when you were, what, 14-15?


Heck, I missed that part of post and thought OP is an adult... Zip, can you ask your parents for a trainer? Noone is trying to be mean here or critique you, but getting hurt by the horse is not fun especially when you are so young.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

*"Aggressive 3 Year old I bought 2 and a half years ago as an ungelded 18 month old....*

Actually, in rereading the OP-pretty confusing, OP could you clarify?


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## Zip (Feb 7, 2011)

I know I've made a mistake, but insulting me by calling me and my family ignorant, rubbing in the fact that I made a mistake isn't helping the situation. If anyones being ignorant it's the people putting down, and trying to make a 17 year old feel bad about asking for help.

*"I, on the other hand DO blame them. Why? Because once it became clear that a mistake had been made, there was no effort to correct it." *How are we not trying to correct it? I'm asking for help and trying to learn everything I can about horse training, what else do you want me to do? I said I PERSONALY (Not my parents) wasn't interested in a trainer because I wanted to try doing it myself, that dosn't mean I'm putting that option out of the question, I never said that at all! In fact, my parents were making arrangments with a horse experienced person (family friend) to let them keep thier horse here in exchange for help with Tonto.


People keep telling me to use a whip or crop to get him to move, I don't have a whip at the moment, is it okay if I use something like a stick temporarily until I can get one?

As for the experience thing, My mom used to ride all the time, and my dad had a horse when he was younger but they got rid of it when he was still a teenager (I don't know the whole story) I don't have experience with horses except for what the previous owner taught me when we went to pick him up, and what Sherry (family friend) teaches me whenerver she comes out (trains race horses and ex race horses) I'm also looking into joining my local 4-h club, and thinking of taking a focus program in school about horse training. But no, aside from the above I've had no previous experience with horses.

Franknbeans; 2 years ago I bought an unreg. American Paint named Tonto. We were led to believe that he had been started under saddle and knew basic ground work. He behaved pretty well at the PO's(previous owners) house, he didn't like lifting his feet, but was good at being lead. The PO even had him going for long walks down thier country road. He has never been trailered before so it took 4 of us to get him into the trailer calmly. Once we got him home he wouldn't go into the barn, but while my dad was at work I stayed with him the whole day, walking with him and just being with him, I went into the barn to get something and he followed me (trust?) He learnt to just follow us when we called him so I stopped using his lead rope with him. Later I got a e-mail from the PO telling me not to start working with him for a few months until he settled in, and to just sit by his stall and get to know him. Another thing she told me, which made me question her as a trainer, was that *her kids would run around in the field with him getting him to chase them as a game* I listend to her about the being gentle with him, and not forcing him to do anything for a month and I really think this is probably where all the problems I have with him came from. My dad on the other hand was assertive with him the whole time and I think thats why he's had better luck with him than me.


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## Zip (Feb 7, 2011)

Just re-read my last post, Sorry, I'm not very good with words and thats probably not much clearer than it was before xD


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Firstly, to Frankinbeans, sorry if I came across that way, but I wasn't at all implying that I thought you beat your horse. I took you at face value when you said you didn't & that's not what you meant. I presume it was the comments about what if the horse retaliated/thought it was a game, that somehow sounded like I was implying you might then beat them? I wasn't trying to be sarcastic(learned that doesn't work too well on forums!), but straight up, asking you what you would do in that type situation? 

I don't resent you for the assumption, just wonder where you got the idea from, but as I've tried to explain, just because I don't handle things the way you do, doesn't mean that I 'take gentleness to the extreme' (just ask my kids or husband!:twisted .... although perhaps to you that just means I don't do things like you do.



Zip said:


> I know I've made a mistake, but insulting me by calling me and my family ignorant,


Zip, was not trying to be insulting at all with the word 'ignorant', just using that in it's literal meaning too - your parents & you obviously didn't know better, which means you (were) ignorant about the issues, that's all. Perhaps someone with more tact could have chosen a better word, I'm not sure, but everyone's ignorant about some things, no one knows everything, so I wasn't thinking of it as a put down, in context, either. Ignorance has no bearing on intelligence or anything IMO, it's what people do once they learn they're ignorant about something that matters I reckon.



> People keep telling me to use a whip or crop to get him to move, I don't have a whip at the moment, is it okay if I use something like a stick temporarily until I can get one?


Yep, a stick's fine. The reason for a whip/stick is to use it as an extension of your arm, so you can signal/put pressure on the horse while staying at a safer distance.



> *her kids would run around in the field with him getting him to chase them as a game*


:shock: So his chasing people out of his paddock may be nothing to do with aggression at all - he's just playing the game he learned as a youngster. Not on of course and should not be tolerated, but don't blame him for it either.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'll just toss a few tidbits...

1 - Statelinetack.com has a lot of good videos free of charge. There is a ton of good info there. If you haven't tried it, let me recommend some time watching and learning.

2 - It doesn't sound to me like he is the 'I'll kill you' kind of aggressive. If you think he is likely to turn it into a dominance fight - and I'm told some horses will - then turn it over to an expert. A truly vicious horse is outside the safe handling of even reasonably experienced folks. I haven't met any horses like that, but I have very limited experience. I do know that I was over my head quite a few times as I started off with the horses I have, and they are by no stretch mean. When I watched the videos, I realize that a lot of the bad behavior was caused by my handling. And fortunately, my horses are really pretty forgiving.

3 - Leading. When I first bought the horses, I'd go up, put a halter on them and go. One of the videos I mentioned pointed out that my behavior was pretty rude by horse standards. What worked much better was to approach at an angle, get the halter on, and then step a bit to the side as we move off.

If the horse still balks, then what works for me is to turn them in place, using a pull to the side with the lead and a shove with my body into the horse's body. They prefer to walk straight to spinning in place, and I've had good luck. I've only owned a total of 4 horses, so it may not work for others. Worked well with mine. Don't know if anyone else does it.

Good luck. It really sounds to me like you can make this work, and learn a lot in the process. Best wishes to you!


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## Trilogy (Jan 25, 2011)

_Quote: "I have an Aggressive 3 Year old I bought 2 and a half years ago as an ungelded 18 month old, as a result of the owner leading us to believe he has been broken (I should have realized by his age. I know) When we got him home he was fairley well behaved, but the longer we had him, the more is behavioural problems began to shine through"_

Ok, the first thing you have to realise is that this is not his 'behavioral problems' shining through. You have been training him to act this way in the 2 years you have had him. If he was decently behaved as a 1 year old he sounds like a good horse who was started well. He is not the problem - you are. 

Luckily that means that you are able to fix this. Horses are honest by nature and never mean...they are only what we train them to be. You need to approach your parents and tell them this is too much to handle without some training. If you can't afford a good trainer then at least have a long session where they can show you where you are going wrong. In fact, you could post a video of you handling him and some of his pushy behavior so we can help you in the way you act around him. This is crunch time, he will need to be started under saddle soon and this is not something that a beginner or someone with a small amount of experience should be handling on their own. There is no shame in saying you need help.

Every single interaction you have with your horse is training. You must always be definate, calm and consistent. You must spend time with him, teaching him from the beginning what is acceptable and what is not. Immediately correct any bad behavior and immediately reward anything good. With time and patience you can turn him around....but you will need help at this stage.


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## yukontanya (Apr 11, 2010)

Think Like a Horse-Rick Gore Horsemanship

Watch and read everything on this web site.. Rick will really help you out (but you first much admit you messing things up) You do not have good communication with your horse, with time and understand you will both get there.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

franknbeans said:


> *"Aggressive 3 Year old I bought 2 and a half years ago as an ungelded 18 month old....*
> 
> Actually, in rereading the OP-pretty confusing, OP could you clarify?


Again-sorry if I am being dense, but if he is 3 now, how was he 18 months old when you bought him 2 1/2 years ago?

You clarified that you have had him 2 years, that I get. When was he gelded?

And the chasing people in the field game.....may well explain a lot of the issues.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Loosie:

Quote:
Originally Posted by *franknbeans*  
_I find some of the above posts frightening in the hands of a beginner._

Ditto - that is one big part of my problem with trying to 'fight fire with fire' - as I've said, I don't think it's always inappropriate at all, but remember also the advice is for a novice & what sounds like an 'assertive' horse, so especially if she can't/won't get experienced help, she'll be far safer avoiding confrontations IME. Horses have much more 'brawn' than us, so IMO it's best to work it out with brain power instead.That is great IN THEORY. However, when a horse is coming at me with one end or the other....I am not going to ask them to wait a minute while I think it out. I am not saying she should pick fights. I am just saying that she cannot allow the horse to think it can start one, playing or not. Sure, after tha fact, she may think about it, and think that there may have been another way it could have been dealt with more effectively, and that is how she will learn. 


Quote:
Having owned a truly aggressive horse in the past, I will tell you that there are times that you must whack them. I am a firm believer in the "3 second rule". This means that if my horse PURPOSELY (and you can tell by demeanor, etc) attacks me I have 3 seconds to react 
You're confusing your opinions with facts above I think.I do not believe I am confused at all.(Not just you personally, but everyone advising that you MUST get aggressive, that not doing this WILL make things worse...)If you ignore aggressive behaviors they will get worse.  There are no hard & fast facts about whacking horses to be effective. Just because you don't do this doesn't mean there aren't other effective measures. I am not saying my way is the only way at all. Just because you felt you wanted to use that tactic doesn't mean everyone must.Nor am I saying anyone MUST do anything! Having worked with far more than just one 'aggressive' horse, I agree that there may be emergencies that require reactivity on the handler's part, especially if you can't/don't set up situations to avoid them, but IME it seems that people reacting with violence is a major factor in *creating* aggressive horses & is often far from an effective 'correction' for it.First, that ONE horse was just used as an example. Sure ideally it is great if you can avoid bad situations. That is what we all want. However, that does not seem to be the case here. And I AM ON NO WAY SUGGESTING A MAJOR BEATING OF THE TYPE THAT WOULD CREATE AN AGRESSIVE HORSE!

That '3 second rule' is a confusion from cognitive tests done on *dogs* that show that whatever happens - be it positive or negative, punishment or reinforcement - a dog cannot associate behaviour with consequence unless it is *within* 3 seconds *maximum*. That is, it's always best to reinforce/punish a behaviour you want to effect _at the time_ it's happening, but with _dogs_, they are generally able to work it out if it's less than 3 seconds removed. Horses are actually less able to associate abstracted consequences and your reinforcement/punishment must happen _within_ 1-2 seconds max for them to know what it's about.Perhaps YOU are confused between dogs and horses. I am talking about horses. I also use that reference because I react as quickly as I can, I do not stop and count.....but I also only punish them for about 3 seconds. Then I move on.


Quote:
I am not saying to beat them, but they have to have a clear signal right then. 
And what if they don't perceive your 'clear signal' in the way you intended? What if they get more aggressive because you are? What if they think you're wanting to play dominance games & they do too?? What if they feel the need to put you back in your place with a 'clearer signal', because you were impertinent enough not to listen to the last one?? IME this is how a lot of 'aggressive' horses are created - by people who do stuff without consideration for the specifics and how *that horse at that time* may perceive the punishment. We are all entitled to our opinion.


Quote:
Again, if it is me or them-it will not be me if I have any say in the matter. 
Why does it have to be either or? Why not use your bigger brain to work out how to make both of you winners? Ideally it does. But as I said, when there is an emergent situation, I do not have the time to tell the horse wo wait a second while I think it through.


Quote:
A beginner is at a distinct disadvantage, since there are signals we all learn over the years from our horses that certain behaviors will follow. These signals allow us to avert the behavior before it happens in many cases. As a "newbie" you have to act on what the horse is doing and learn the signals as you go. 
Again, precisely one very good reason why I'd advise a beginner to try to avoid confrontations & not pick fights with a horse, because they could miss the bodylanguage that may tell them it's not a good idea at that time. Also another very good reason for a beginner to seek experienced help, rather than just muddling on picking through a lot of seemingly contradictory advice"

Loosie-I think I have answered you. I have no desire to boggle up this post with further discussion with you personnally. It is clear to me that you and I disagree, and that is fine. This is not the forum for us to try and change each others minds.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Zip said:


> How are we not trying to correct it? I'm asking for help and trying to learn everything I can about horse training, what else do you want me to do? I said I PERSONALY (Not my parents) wasn't interested in a trainer because _*I wanted to try doing it myself,*_ that dosn't mean I'm putting that option out of the question, I never said that at all! In fact, my parents were making arrangments with a horse experienced person (family friend) to let them keep thier horse here in exchange for help with Tonto.


Zip, when I was referring to trainer I didn't necessarily meant you have to send your horse into training. Taking lessons still means _you do it yourself_ but you are getting professional help. Trainer/instructor just teaches you during that hour of lesson how to do it correctly when he/she is not around (which is 6 days out of 7). 

No videos in world and advices on Internet will substitute a live advice from the professional who actually can see what is wrong and help correcting it right on spot. Moreover I have to add that advice based on incomplete information may do more bad than good sometime, because training always depends on horse and situation. 

It's OK for any of us to admit we don't know something and did something wrong and look for the help. The longer you do something wrong the longer it'll take to fix it (if possible at all). 

And yes, any tree bench will perfectly work as a whip.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Zip, when I was referring to trainer I didn't necessarily meant you have to send your horse into training. Taking lessons still means _you do it yourself_ but you are getting professional help. Trainer/instructor just teaches you during that hour of lesson how to do it correctly when he/she is not around (which is 6 days out of 7).
> 
> No videos in world and advices on Internet will substitute a live advice from the professional who actually can see what is wrong and help correcting it right on spot. Moreover I have to add that advice based on incomplete information may do more bad than good sometime, because training always depends on horse and situation.
> 
> ...



This is exactly right as I learned first hand. I read a lot of books and saw a ton of videos but it didn't help with the timing and right correction. I still work with my trainer, although not as often.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> Zip, when I was referring to trainer I didn't necessarily meant you have to send your horse into training. Taking lessons still means _you do it yourself_ but you are getting professional help...


The trainer who has helped us and is teaching my daughter to ride regularly needs to work with horses at her place. She regularly offers to let anyone interested come watch her working with a horse - for free. She has to do the work anyway, and she doesn't mind someone watching.

As a rule, a video is better than a book, and watching it live is better than a video. I don't know if other trainers would agree to let you watch, but I've met a number of owners who work their horses and who would be glad to show someone how they do it and what they are looking for in response.

Many trainers around here will hold clinics. The ones I've gone to were small - just 6-8 people and a couple of horses. The folks there to watch were only charged $10-15 for the entire day...that is another very inexpensive way to learn a lot in a short time. Not all training requires a long-term commitment and contract.


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## qtrhrsecrazy (Aug 2, 2009)

Twogeldings and Franknbeans are telling you right. 

_To many people make the mistake of expecting the horse to think like a human. That'll get you hurt. You HAVE to think like the horse._ They understand their own language. 3 second rule is correct. Make them move is correct. Get Clinton Anderson video's.

My best advice to you beyond above paragraph, is geld that boy, and seek professional training to get you and him over the hump. Once he's well in hand, then take back over if you want to finish this project and enjoy your horse


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Zip said:


> In fact, my parents were making arrangments with a horse experienced person (family friend) to let them keep thier horse here in exchange for help with Tonto.


 I hope they change their mind from "were" to are. 



> I'm also looking into joining my local 4-h club, and thinking of taking a focus program in school about horse training. But no, aside from the above I've had no previous experience with horses.


This is a good start!

Personally, I don't think it will take much to turn this horse around as he has a lot of plusses! He's gentle, has a calm and easy going nature, young, curious, intelligent and alone - ie. friendly (doesn't have a "leave me alone touch me not" attitude), watches/pays attention to you (cares about what you are doing), pushes the door open (intelligent, figures things out on his own), stands quietly to be groomed (enjoys the interaction, not just tolerant of it) and has no other horse to bond with (horses are gregarious by nature, they want to be "in a herd" or group) - and you are it. I don't see him as an aggressive horse, I see him as a horse who doesn't understand what is expected of him and a handler who doesn't know how to communicate with him. Kicking and biting are normal horse talk - what he doesn't understand is that it is unacceptable to speak to a human that way. What I don't want to see happen is for him to start shouting at you because you're not listening. ie. going from kicking at you and motoring off, to kicking you and standing his ground. There are ways to teach a horse proper behavior without it becoming a win/lose situation. I never approach training a horse with a win/lose attitude. I don't believe horses think that way and thinking that way is confrontational and competitive. I'm not with a horse to do either.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bsms said:


> I don't know if other trainers would agree to let you watch, but I've met a number of owners who work their horses and who would be glad to show someone how they do it and what they are looking for in response.


Actually any reputable trainer in my area doesn't mind at all t people sit at the training session or lesson. Because good trainer has nothing to hide. My current trainer invited me to 2 different level lessons to see if I like the way she teaches before starting taking lessons with her on my own horse.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Actually any reputable trainer in my area doesn't mind at all t people sit at the training session or lesson. Because good trainer has nothing to hide. My current trainer invited me to 2 different level lessons to see if I like the way she teaches before starting taking lessons with her on my own horse.



My trainer did that too. I was welcome any time, and when I did send Hunter to for a month I could go any time and watch.


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## Zip (Feb 7, 2011)

So, I spent an hour typing up a super long post and was about to click send and my page refreshed on me >.< so I'm sorry if this is confusing but I'm going to try to cram all of the information I just lost into a short post.

Well, like i said before there is a few people who have experience with horses that could help out. The women down the road that I'm not sure wether is reputable or not offered to let me work with her horses under supervision and give me advice that way.

I don't remember exactly when he was gelded of the top of my head, but I do know that I got him in January and it was around spring or summer that he was gelded. the vet let me give him a needle because she knew I wanted to be a vet 

Yea, I figured thats where the chasing people came from but I wasn't sure.

I do have a few other things I wanted to say but forgot about so i'll just say them now. Tonto hates water, he doesn't like to get wet at all. If I am using the hose to clean out the water dishes, he will moves to the side of me that is opposite of the direction I'm spraying the water. It's like he wants to be near me, but if the water starts spraying up at him and he can't get aay from it no matter what side of me he's on he will leave me. He was starting to get really dirty with dirt that the brushes couldn't get out of his coat so I decided it was finaly time to do something about it. So I started gradually over the course of 2 weeks just using my hands to get him wet, by getting them wet and petting him. Then I moved to wetting his brush and brushing him with it and he had no problems with that and I just kept working with him and working with him untill I finaly had him so that I could cover the end of the hose with my hand, leaving gaps between my fingers and letting the water run on him through my fingers. but all of that work went down the drain when tonto got out of the barnyard and my dad sprayed at him with the hose because he was near the road and a car was speeding over the hill. and it was the first thing my dad could do to get him out of the way of the car. I was really upset about it but my dad doesn't have the patience that I do and in that situation I can understand what he did but there are other things he does that we don't agree on but i can't argue because tonto does seem to have more respect for him than me.

He also has a tendency to bite the dogs... He tried stomping on one of our puppies that we babysit. He waited by the whole in the fence they go through and when they were leaving he let all of my dogs through and waited for the other dog to go through and stomped at him.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Frankn, remember I am giving my OPINION and you're giving your OPINION. I get the feeling you assume otherwise, but mine _are_ based on a lot of experience, including a few truly aggressive horses & lots of 'problem' ones(used to train other's), along with my behavioural studies. (Not that I expect anyone to just take on faith something written by a stranger on the net either BTW) I don't know or assume your background either. Please also remember that we only have written words to go on, open to interpretation & preconceived ideas, so I think it's also important to take whatever is said in as 'charitable' way as possible & try not to assume meanings or more than is said, if it's not perfectly clear. I also appreciate I'm not the worlds best or most tactful communicator, but I've also come to realise I'm far from alone there...

I'm continuing this discussion, because considering alternate approaches & their pros & cons have been vital in my learning & making informed decisions, I'm hoping this will help others decide when/where/why certain tactics may be appropriate or not. At the end of the day, it's not about what bits of who's opinions you take or leave, but if you don't have those opinions to consider in the first place(or are not willing to consider they may be valid), you have nothing but trial & error, or blind faith to go on.



franknbeans said:


> Horses have much more 'brawn' than us, so IMO it's best to work it out with brain power instead.That is great IN THEORY. However, when a horse is coming at me with one end or the other....I am not going to ask them to wait a minute while I think it out.




It's actually great in PRACTICE, too. I don't actually see that waiting until you're being attacked before planning anything is using brain over brawn tho:lol:. Probably best to set up the situation beforehand in order to _avoid_ it.:wink:



> advising that you MUST get aggressive, that not doing this WILL make things worse...)If you ignore aggressive behaviors they will get worse.  There are no hard & fast facts about whacking horses to be effective. Just because you don't do this doesn't mean there aren't other effective measures. I am not saying my way is the only way at all.


Again, just because I don't(generally, as prev explained) do what you do, DOESN'T MEAN I IGNORE IT AT ALL!! Maybe you truly don't believe your way is the only way, just that's not how you've come across.



> And I AM ON NO WAY SUGGESTING A MAJOR BEATING OF THE TYPE THAT WOULD CREATE AN AGRESSIVE HORSE!


Not saying you are at all, but it also doesn't necessarily take any 'major beatings' to have that effect on some horses. .. Altho I'm sure that is open to interpretation too.



> Perhaps YOU are confused between dogs and horses. I am talking about horses. I also use that reference because I react as quickly as I can, I do not stop and count.....but I also only punish them for about 3 seconds.


I am just telling you where the theory came from & how it came about. Going on memory of behavioural science, but I'm 99.9% sure I'm not mistaken. The cognitive 'powers' of dogs, as they were put to the test, were found to be slightly better in that manner to horses, and it is the dog model that horse people have apparently taken & run with. I actually think that in practice it's largely pedantics - because it is always best to reinforce/punish only AT THE TIME OF the behaviour, not after it, but it's handy to understand the specifics of behaviour & learning theory of different animals in order to know why/how/what went wrong, etc.



> Quote:
> I am not saying to beat them, but they have to have a clear signal right then.
> And what if they don't perceive your 'clear signal' in the way you intended? What if they get more aggressive because you are? What if they think you're wanting to play dominance games & they do too?? What if they feel the need to put you back in your place with a 'clearer signal', because you were impertinent enough not to listen to the last one??


Asking again because I'm really genuinely interested in learning your(& others who go for this approach) answer to the above. As may be Zip & others who might be trying to analyse the pros & cons of our differences. 



> IME this is how a lot of 'aggressive' horses are created - by people who do stuff without consideration for the specifics and how *that horse at that time* may perceive the punishment. We are all entitled to our opinion.


I agree, my experiences of having seen horses that were effectively(& of course unintentionally) goaded to true aggression(thankfully most horses don't retailate like this) may well be just my perception/opinion, but I'm asking what you'd do with a horse like that, that for whatever reason, opinions aside, your 'punishment' makes matters worse? Because it does happen. Perhaps you haven't considered that it does tho?



> Ideally it does. But as I said, when there is an emergent situation, I do not have the time to tell the horse wo wait a second while I think it through.


I presume you mean 'emergency' above? If so, see previous posts, because I've already said I would use whatever force/method it took to be effective & safe in case of 'emergencies'. IME it's just best to set it up to avoid confrontations if/when possible.



> This is not the forum for us to try and change each others minds.


It's not about me changing your mind or vice versa. I actually think of this debate as being more beneficial for the likes of Zip than you personally. I think these forums are about putting/taking whatever ideas are offered, to learn as much as we all can. I have certainly learned some over the years, from those who give their opinions & tell the reasons behind how they arrived at them. That is why I think discussions like this are helpful. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, but if any of my information gives them cause to consider alternatives or problems they may not have thought of or experienced before, great! Who knows - the answers to my above question to you might even cause me to rethink my approach too! It's been known to happen:wink:


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Zip said:


> I do have a few other things I wanted to say but forgot about so i'll just say them now. Tonto hates water, he doesn't like to get wet at all. If I am using the hose to clean out the water dishes, he will moves to the side of me that is opposite of the direction I'm spraying the water. It's like he wants to be near me, but if the water starts spraying up at him and he can't get aay from it no matter what side of me he's on he will leave me. He was starting to get really dirty with dirt that the brushes couldn't get out of his coat so I decided it was finaly time to do something about it. So I started gradually over the course of 2 weeks just using my hands to get him wet, by getting them wet and petting him. Then I moved to wetting his brush and brushing him with it and he had no problems with that and I just kept working with him and working with him untill I finaly had him so that I could cover the end of the hose with my hand, leaving gaps between my fingers and letting the water run on him through my fingers. but all of that work went down the drain when tonto got out of the barnyard and my dad sprayed at him with the hose because he was near the road and a car was speeding over the hill. and it was the first thing my dad could do to get him out of the way of the car. I was really upset about it but my dad doesn't have the patience that I do and in that situation I can understand what he did but there are other things he does that we don't agree on but i can't argue because tonto does seem to have more respect for him than me.


Let me get this straight…the horse is loose and near the road with a car coming, yet your dad was close enough to squirt him with a hose, but not close enough to grab him by the halter (which you say is always on the horse)? Do you realize that squirting the horse could have easily driven it toward the car since he had no way of controlling which direction that horse would go? And your only concern about such a dangerous situation is that your work regarding water went down the drain?

Put a fork in me, I'm DONE.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Put a fork in me, I'm DONE. 

Me too. I am not again going to go point for point with Loosie.....I do not believe it serves any purpose to help the OP. Agree to disagree.....

OP-sorry, but you could benefit greatly from some onsight help. That is the best and safest way for both of you to learn.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

I just read all this and personally to me it is a time bomb waiting to explode with a dangerous end.
you have a family is basically NO experience except riding horses, a young girl with zero experience and they are, or she is trying, to train an unruly youngster that is the boss. You can bet the things she is saying is sugar coated and not the total truths, but ones said to make it seem like this situation is not bad .
Its all nice and dandy her family maintains a responsibility to keep the animals they get, but this is crazy. this horse is going to hurt this young girl and possibly someone else. It tries to kill dogs, it runs folks from the pasture, you can't do this and you can't do that, yadda yadda. 
this young girl is NOT ready to train a horse, any horse, but especially a young rude, pushy 3 year old. 
I am not going to say" get a trainer to help or try this or that. My opinion as I see it is mine, but will say it anyway. SELL this horse, get a nice older horse that will be fun to ride, and be safe and learn on. I think that the OP enjoys saying she is training her own first horse and there is a bit of "magic" in it because its like the movies: first horse, untrained horse, then trained magically with no problems and no issues. Flicka, Black Stallion, on and on shows horses being trained into perfection in two hours. Romantic and tear jerkers, but not true life.
to the OP, I applaude your thoughts on trying to stick with this horse, but please sell him and get yourself a horse you can be riding and learning with daily instead of trying to deal with a spoiled, willful, non respecting horse that will hurt you.


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## Zimpatico (Nov 5, 2010)

wyominggrandma said:


> I just read all this and personally to me it is a time bomb waiting to explode with a dangerous end.
> you have a family is basically NO experience except riding horses, a young girl with zero experience and they are, or she is trying, to train an unruly youngster that is the boss. You can bet the things she is saying is sugar coated and not the total truths, but ones said to make it seem like this situation is not bad .
> Its all nice and dandy her family maintains a responsibility to keep the animals they get, but this is crazy. this horse is going to hurt this young girl and possibly someone else. It tries to kill dogs, it runs folks from the pasture, you can't do this and you can't do that, yadda yadda.
> this young girl is NOT ready to train a horse, any horse, but especially a young rude, pushy 3 year old.
> ...


:clap::clap::clap:

I am sorry, but I wholeheartedly agree with this. This situation is about your safety and the safety of the horse. He is not a typical household pet, but a 1000 lb animal that can seriously hurt you, himself, or someone else.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Wyominggrandma --- Thank you. You are 1000% correct.

This Oklahoma Grandma checked out of this one early. 

When someone is ignorant enough to think they can invent it over and are not willing to do anything that would actually be effective and safe, like I said early in this post, "I am not willing to contribute to their demise." 
This is a horse that will probably not even end up as a safe pasture pet and will just be more fodder for some slaughter plant. And, it will all be due to the so-called 'adults' in his life being unwilling to do the 'right' thing by him. Hopefully, these ignorant people will not be crippled or killed by the monster they have/are creating.

Can anyone tell me why there is such misplaced 'honor' in inventing something over? To me, the honor would go to those that are intelligent enough to seek knowledgeable help -- which it seems is available. I am just sitting her shaking my head.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Thanks for agreeing with me, I was a bit leary to say anything because sometimes the "it will get better " words get to me. Its a rough world out there and to let a youngster try to play with her fantasty world of training a horse with no experience is just too much flowers and roses.
I have had many many horses in my life, trained many many horses, some turned out great, some not so great. But even as a youngster and training my first horses with lots of experienced help at the time, I was willing to admit when things go over my head. Even as late as two years ago, I got a youngster and wanted to train again, after working with him a bit through good and bad, I got tired of dreading riding because of a youngster who was not dangerous like this one is, but a typical youngster, I traded him off for a wonderful almost 9 yr old mare that is everything I wanted again. Fun, eager, but well trained and a joy to be around whether on her back on working on the ground.
Lifes lessons will teach you that sometimes it is best for all concerned, including the horse, to toss in the towel and start over. If anyone on this forum can say they have NEVER given up on a horse then they are certainly a better person than I am. I am not afraid to admit a horse is too much for me, wasn't afraid of it many eons ago when I was young and certainly not now when I am older and break easier.
I am a grandma and mom. I have MADE my daughter get rid of horses that even though she figured she could deal with the issues,I have made her realize the conquences of keeping that horse. After the typical: You just don't understand mom", she realized that I did have smart ideas and when she listened, she ended up liking the end results.
Please, OP get rid of this horse and get something you can go out everyday and enjoy.


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## Zip (Feb 7, 2011)

Horse Poor; I don't know the whole story as I wasn't there at the time (I'd like to also point out, because I know someones going to try using this against me, that I don't leave for days at a time and not work with him. I was gone to spend some time with my cousin after finding out he had cancer.) For all I know, I could have this story confused with another. But either way, a hose (at least the ones in my area) can spray way further than the two feet you're arm can reach. And what I remember from the story is that dad was between the road and the horse, tonto was running down towards my dad, so he sprayed the water out in front of the road knowing Tonto wouldn't go through it, through his hands in the air and ran out in front of Tonto and asked him to calm down. It's not like he was just blindly spraying water not having any idea where the horse would run to. And during something like that you don't have time to actually stop and think about it. He had to act immediately before someone got hurt. I'm not one for dwelling on the past, I'm thankful that no one was hurt and I do realize that things could have gone wrong, but It was last summer, I'm not going to keep worrying about what could have happened. Don't get me wrong, I did think about it at first, wondering what we could do differently to make it less risky if we were ever in a similar situation again

You say that he's 'SO bad' and that I need to get rid of him, but if he's really as bad as you say he is, who's going to want him? Like i've said before. I have 3 people who have already offered to help me out with this and I AM open to asking them to help me with him. I said before, I'm not to keen on sending him away, but I'm sure I could arrange for someone to come down and work with him on my property, especially since they do work with him whenever they do come down.

I'm not sugar coating things, and I don't like how you just make the assumption that the only reason I want to train him myself is so I can brag about it or get attention, And that I think it's going to be just like in the movies. Thats not why I'm doing this at all. If you read my first post you would know that I had NO intentions of buying such an unruley horse. I'm not lying about any of his behavior or trying to make the situation seem better than it is. If i really wanted to make people think everything was all *"Flowers and Rainbows" *I wouldn't be asking for any ones help.

And yes, He stomped at a strange dog he'd never seen before. But I truthfuly don't think it was just agressive behavior that drove him to do it. I breed German Shepherds and it was a 2 year old pup we had sold coming back to be babysat and his owners just let him of leash in out yard and the first thing he did was run over, jump at tonto and bark in his face. I'm not trying to "Surgar-coat" it, the only reason I say this is because a) that dog had never been around farm animals before. b) a strange dog jumped up at him c) He's fine with all of my own dogs including a new pup we just rescued from the streets named lilly, but she has respect for him, than Khale did.


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## Zip (Feb 7, 2011)

Wyominggrandma; I'd also like to say beautiful dog in your picture. Is it a Bernese Mountain Dog? I love all animals, but I'd have to say more than anything else animal related different dog breeds and genetics are by far my favorite thing. My family (parents, aunts, and uncles) breed German Shepherds and my parents got me a pair of Papillons to breed after they noticed me taking an interest


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## WalkerLady (Jul 22, 2010)

Zip said:


> I'd also like to mention, that there is a women who lives a little ways up the road from me and claims to "Train Horses" I often walk my little cousin up there because he's friends with her son. And she's always offering to help me out with Tonto. But my family has heard alot of bad about them, we've been told that all of thier horses were bought trained except for 3 and those three have put them both in hospital before, plus they wont come down to work with him, they want us to leave him with her and we don't feel comfortable doing that. I also know of another women who offered to help with tonto, but again, I don't know how reliable she is either because she allowed tonto to chase he out of the field...


I would definitely listen to your instincts here, it doesn't sound like these people would help and might even be harmful.


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## Zip (Feb 7, 2011)

Im not sure, because the person saying all the bad things about them has a grudge on them for something that happened between them. They seemed really nice and helpful, they even said that I could use thier round pen whenever I needed and that they would show me how they work with thier own horses before deciding wether to bring tonto down or not. I always though they were great people until my nieghbour said "Oh don't trust them, those horses of theres are bad" It got me having second thoughts about them...


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## WalkerLady (Jul 22, 2010)

I would just be leary of leaving my horse with them if you have any doubts at all (and it sounds like you might). What they show you with their own horses may be different than what they would do with yours. If their horses are already well-trained, it may look like they know exactly what they're doing, but it doesn't prove they can work with an untrained 3-yr. old.

If you're determined to keep and train Tonto, IMHO the best thing to do is something suggested earlier - pay a _reputable_ trainer for one or two sessions a week, their place or yours, then _listen_ to the trainer when they point out specific problems and solutions and work with Tonto every day in that manner. Let the trainer watch how you interact with your horse and tell you where he/she sees problems. All horses, people, and situations are different and it can be hard to explain in words how exactly things are between you and Tonto and what kind of horse he really is. Get somebody that you have confidence in to watch you.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Yes, its a Berner, I also have German Shepherds.
I am not trying to sound mean, it is just sometimes it is best to admit that the horse is above your level of expertise and experience and therefore suggest you sell or trade him for a horse more your level. One you can enjoy today, not wait two or three or four years to have a trustworthy horse. There are lots of people out there that have been training for years and years and would be able to work this horse to HIS full potential and make him a good riding horse. I just don't think you are able to do this. He just needs a person who is experienced in training, dicipline and authority to make this 1000lb horse a horse and a working horse, not an oversized pet that demands what he wants and then takes it from you. 
I'm sorry but you are not going to admit he is too much, you are not ready to say" I am over my head and need to sell this horse to someone who is much more experienced to train him and get a horse that is a joy to be around" When you are ready to do that, you will not be posting over and over making up excuses as to why you don't want to get rid of him or why you think you can fix the problems that have been made by the previous owners and YOU. You don't want to see above the fact that this horse is a mistake, something that is going to hurt you or someone else and yes you bought him, so rectify the problem and sell him to someone who knows what they are doing. THEN go find a decent horse, well trained that is older and steady. Admit this is over your head. A well trained horse is still able to hurt an inexperienced person, an untrained, DOMINATE, AGGRESSIVE and SPOILED horse is GOING to hurt you.
I am out of here, no sense posting to someone who doesn't really want help.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Okay, I gotta post again. I reread about the water hose incedent and guess I am amazed. This 1000 lb pet was running loose? How did he get out of pasture? Why was he loose? 
You raise GSD, do your dogs run loose all over also? Do they have any disipline? 
To me this whole thread is dangerous, amazing and almost unbelievable.
A 17 year old unexperienced girl is trying to train a 3 yr old pushy, dominate aggressive horse with no help, no experience and no training, plus no proper facilities or anything else. The folks down the street offered to help, but the other folks said" they are bad, don't go there". So, you won't take help in person, won't sell the horse, and won't do much but be on the internet and talk about how he does this and how he does that and then when called on it, you make up stories about "its not that bad, blah blah blah. You left another forum because all the mean poopie heads told you to grow up, sell the horse and move on, since you have no experience to train this horse but your feeling swere hurt so you left and came here and once again, the majority of folks, ADULTS people who have tons more experience than you are saying the same thing.
Okay, I get it now. NOT..


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Zip, I know it's not what you want to hear, but at the same time I don't see _why_ you don't want to hear it: You need a trainer. I am NOT saying you have to send your horse away for 6 months to be trained. I am saying that you need to find a reputable trainer to come out (or you come to them) to give you INSTRUCTION on how to deal with Tonto. You need someone on-hand to tell you what to do and teach you how to retrain this horse. A 17-year old first-time owner can not turn a horse around without instruction. All the best,
Sage

Btw, was Tonto named for "silly" in Spanish?


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## Trilogy (Jan 25, 2011)

I agree with everyone. If after 2 and a half years of you working with him he is only getting more dangerous you have to be able to admit that you are in over your head. I would rather buy a pushy 3 year old than an agressive, unbroke 10 year old which is where he will be headed.

Now is the time when you decide to be an adult or a child.....


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## Zip (Feb 7, 2011)

all of the GSD pups we raise for homes go through training from as soon as they can be they start to be. And my own dogs went through extensive training in personal protection. My Papillons are trained for agility. Tonto was loose because he learnt how to open the gate to the pasture, we've since changed the way we locked the gate and the barn door.

First people tell me to get a trainer, and when I finaly give into that they change thier minds to "No, you can't have a horse at all" what do you want? It seems like all people want to do is be against me. I want to train him myself, you say I need a trainer. I agree to the trainer, you say you have to sell him. I'm not selling him yet. This is my first time actually being able to work with him with an actual plan in mind and goals set and I've only been working with him for a month because of my dads surgery and parents not wanting me out thier without him. I've already been looking around for reputable trainers and put a few wanted ads on the internet. I know I'm going to get attacked for saying this but I'm not ready to give up on him yet.


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## vivache (Jun 14, 2009)

If you're willing to commit to a trainer, get a trainer(and NOT the 'lady down the road who's got horses so I guess she'll do'. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Start calling up trainers and asking them questions about if they can help you with your horse. Advice is free. 

If you are NOT willing to work tightly with a trainer, and insist on doing it all yourself, you are setting yourself AND the horse up for failure. If you cannot financially and emotionally accept that you need to bring someone in to help, you need to sell that horse to someone who can.

You are a beginner. You can't realistically help this horse all on your own. 

Remember that different people have different opinions. No one's out to get you. They just don't want to see you pulled out of the pasture in a stretcher or body bag. All it takes is one purposeful kick.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

vivache said:


> If you're willing to commit to a trainer, get a trainer(and NOT the 'lady down the road who's got horses so I guess she'll do'. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Start calling up trainers and asking them questions about if they can help you with your horse. Advice is free.
> 
> If you are NOT willing to work tightly with a trainer, and insist on doing it all yourself, you are setting yourself AND the horse up for failure. If you cannot financially and emotionally accept that you need to bring someone in to help, you need to sell that horse to someone who can.
> 
> ...


What viv said


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

twogeldings said:


> The point is to make yourself BIG and MEAN and WORTHY OF RESPECT.


although i agree with most of the other stuff in your post, the word "mean" here bugs me.

be as rough & tough as to get the job done sufficiently, but the moment it becomes "mean" (done with negative emotions) is when your horse will disrespect you as a leader and try even harder to physically dominate you.

oh and the part about plastic bags should never be attempted by anyone. using a plastic bag is more likely to cause fear than respect (enormous difference). and aside that, if you've used a plastic bag to get your horse to get away from you, and to get away from you only, what happens if it sees a plastic bag floating by out on a ride? it gets away from it, usually at high speed, as you've taught it to do so. then you'll call it a bolter and before you know it, without knowing it, you've created your very own "problem" horse.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I wanted to.. and in a round about way tried to.. say to you Zip that you need a trainer. In your OP you said you wanted to do this yourself and at some point I did say that a Green Horse and a Green rider are a bad color combination. You can replace the green rider with green trainer. It is the same thing. 

I also told you about my first horse who was much smarter than I was.. because he was older and experienced. This older and experienced horse is a MUCH better and MUCH safer way for you to learn about horses, horse handling and the rest.

I have German Shepherds as well. As somone who is into this breed I am sure you have seen very very drivey German Shepherds that would NEVER work out as pet dogs in many homes. If those dogs went to those homes the owners would be "Over Dogged" and no one would or could have a happy outcome. I am sure you place your drivey dogs in homes where they will be put to work doing Schutzhund or some other sport requiring intense effort. 

Here you are a beginner with a horse not for beginners.. and it is like those homes that were not appropriate for the drivey GSD's that need to be doing something like Schutzhund. It is not working well. 

I am not trying to be mean at all. I am sure you love this horse and want this to work. I would have had the same desire at your age. However, what this horse may end up teaching you is how to recover from bodily injury and not how to train a horse. No one wants that.... and if the horse severely hurts you I am willing to bet he will be gone to the first auction that comes along and I know you do not want that. Getting badly hurt at 17 sounds like "Oh that won't happen.." but I can tell you it can and it does and it will leave emotional as well as physical scars. No one wants this. 

I suggest you see if you can TRADE him for an older horse that is safe and on which you could learn. You probably will have to put up some money in the trade.. but a reliable horse in his late teens.. even early 20's would be perfect for you. If you work this out correctly both horses could be very happy and both people. I have friends who 'adopted' an ex circuit jumper in his early 20's and they ride him and the kids ride him and he is just GREAT. They have had him and been using him for 3 years.. and he was 21 when they got him. He is even teaching the kids about low cross rails and caveletti. 

They got him for "free." The previous owner wanted a young horse to train (and had the experience to do just that). 

I do not know if you have the money for a trainer for your current horse.. he probably needs at least 6 months with someone and then would be considered 'green' (remember that color combo thing I said). 

FWIW most of the horses I have had would, in high spirits, stomp at a dog. Most of this is horse play (can be deadly for the dog BTW). I never allowed my dogs in the horse pasture or paddocks or stalls for this reason. If I was working cattle with the dog the horse and dog worked together and there was never a problem.. but the dog in the horse pasture was. 

One last thing is that NO ONE here is being"Mean" to you. They are very concerned for your safety and the continued well being of the horse. You want to be a vet and we need more vets.. good ones.. and we all want you to attain that goal.. not get hurt or even killed by a three year old colt. 

I had ONE horse I gave up on.. she was the most perfectly conformed horse you could imagine.. and she and I got along like Oil and water. I sent her out for training (the ONLY horse I ever did that with) to someone with a national reputation.. and he LOVED her. I got her back and it was the same oil and water. Hard as it was, I advertised her and sold her. The lady that bought her loved her and I look back and do not regret that decision. It was darn hard but it was absolutely right.. both for the horse and for me.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

christopher said:


> although i agree with most of the other stuff in your post, the word "mean" here bugs me.
> 
> be as rough & tough as to get the job done sufficiently, but the moment it becomes "mean" (done with negative emotions) is when your horse will disrespect you as a leader and try even harder to physically dominate you.
> 
> oh and the part about plastic bags should never be attempted by anyone. using a plastic bag is more likely to cause fear than respect (enormous difference). and aside that, if you've used a plastic bag to get your horse to get away from you, and to get away from you only, what happens if it sees a plastic bag floating by out on a ride? it gets away from it, usually at high speed, as you've taught it to do so. then you'll call it a bolter and before you know it, without knowing it, you've created your very own "problem" horse.


 Well explained!


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

I didnt read all this in depth but wanted to ask....this horse IS actually gelded now right? If it isnt, DO IT post haste!

There is nothing wrong with seeking help. At the very least, get Clinton Andersons videos and watch them a BUNCH so you get a sense of his timing. Until you learn tequnique and feel, you are severly handicapped in this endevor. 

As Cheri said, you cant take anything out of a horses head. The more you mess it up, the more problems you have to deal with. They can add up to a big bad peice of horseflesh looking to hurt you. 

You are much better off finding an already broke horse or a real live trainer to work with. This is just the logical and responsible facts and thats the reason it keeps getting repeated to you. You dont have to like it.


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