# Parelli or not?



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

The best form is the one that you and your horse work best with. One of the best things about Parelli, also happens to be it's worst thing; that a person can do it on their own. PParelli has systematized the steps to working with a horse on the ground in such a way that they can be taught with out a person being there to "show" you. This is nice for folks that have no one to help them and demonstrate the concepts in NH training. However, it also ends up in people so focussed on the steps in the system and all the specialized vocabulary and gizmos that PP espouses, that they loose sight of WHY the do what they do and what is the ultimate purpose of these activities. They often end up doing nothing but "games" and not doing much riding, and having a horse that goes through the motions but itsn't really "there" mentally, so when you ride him he isn't mentally with you either.

I am not a huge fan of Parelli because of the horses that I have seen , but I have also watched Pat himself work and he is very good with horses. I isn't that what he teaches is wrong, but that it is very hard to train based solely on a book or a video. You really need a mentor right there helping you. 

Will you have someone to work with you?


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Well..this usually turns out as a debate and can't be a sensitive topic. There are many other threads about this exact same thing, I'm not sure if more of the opinionated posters will add to this dicussion because of that..I'll go ahead and say my piece though. 

Pepperoni has good points, but he nor Linda came up with their "techniques", MANY trainers were already doing most of the "techniques" Parelli uses..He just put a name on it and made money off of it...Now Parelli is mostly about "buy my magic halter and carrot stick, because it's what wrongs."....Wrong, I don't have to have his rope halter and orange stick to get my horse to work like he does...He and Linda aren't the Gods people make them out to be..After the incident with the horse Catwalk, Pepperoni lost a ton of respect from his followers... I for one, have never been a fan of Parelli..For them, now, it's all about putting a name on a product and selling it...I'm just not impressed with them.

I also believe that a DVD isn't going to teach you how to handle all situations..I'd rather have a trainer.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

For every one horse who may benifite and do well with PP program there are 100 that are messed up by it. If you already have a very good foundation in training horses taking parts of PP program may be benificail. However if you are a newbie. Go find a good trainer in your area. At the very least take a few lessons a month and get giudence from them. It is very very hard to learn to train a horse with a DVD. If you have a good foundation then a DVD might give you more tools in your tool box but nothing more.


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## smokeslastspot (Jan 11, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> However, it also ends up in people so focussed on the steps in the system and all the specialized vocabulary and gizmos that PP espouses, that they loose sight of WHY the do what they do and what is the ultimate purpose of these activities. They often end up doing nothing but "games" and not doing much riding, and having a horse that goes through the motions but itsn't really "there" mentally, so when you ride him he isn't mentally with you either.



This ^

To each his own but for me personally I will not use it. It seems very gimmicky to me ( around here we call it the parelliite cult) and I have found other easier to understand methods to accomplish what I want. I have also seen graduates from the program with honestly dangerous horses. 

I have seen more than one person with a biter giving their horse treats to stop it from biting. When i ask why I'm told that the horse is biting because they are not comfortable with the situation so a treat helps alleviate the anxiety. Personally if my horse goes to take a chunk out of me he's going to get a good wallop. They all tried once and that was the only time they tried. I will not let me horse be aggressive toward me period. Totally different views about the situation. When i share this view with parelli followers most of them are appalled. There are several other situations similar to this that I have come across, but basically I have seen to many bad ideas such as this come out of the program for me personally to be comfortable with. 

I have heard that when he first started out some of his view were not the same as they are now. My vets wife does the parelli method and she has good usable horses, but she uses the "games" as part of a bigger training picture and it works well for her.


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## alexislauzon (Mar 7, 2012)

thank you guys so much! all i want is to excel my relationship between my horse and I. And I want to do it right! He is so willing, and my coach has taught me many NH ways with horses. and plain and simple logical things as well. I don't want to be apart of an organization that's in it for the money, the name, or just for that sake of whatever. All i want is harmony with my horse, and it IS retarted to have to spend $1000 of dollars to get there. Again, thank you guys soo sooooo much!


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## hoopla (Jan 29, 2012)

Google 'abuse of horse, parelli'. Here's some to get you started

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
Uproar in England following Parelli exhibition July 9 at 2010 Royal Festival of the Horse UPDATE! - National animal training | Examiner.com


It's got nothing to do with training. It's just a money making marketing machine for getting the parelli's rich


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Keep in mind that NH is not PP. While PP may say he is as NH Trainer what he really is is a snake oil salesman.

You can get what you want with out spending all that money. I have a great bond with all my horses. I have horses at the trainers who have been there for 5 years and they still know me when I come to the barn to see them and at times that could have been months and months. You can use PP and still never get the bond you want with your horse if you do not do everything correctly or like has been stated just go through the games with no reason to them.

Horses what a calm confident and resonable leader. If you can do that they will follow you anywhere you go. If you can not they will not. No amount of games will ever change those facts.


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## DressageDreamer (Feb 29, 2012)

I use the Downunder Horsemanship by Clinton Anderson myself with great success. I get the DVD's used online and find similar halters, sticks, etc to train with. Made our own long lead rope to use as well as other items. The concepts are easy to use and work if you do what he says. You don't have to be a club member and buy all the fancy gadgets for it to work. 

I never tried Parelli, so can't say anything about it.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

alexislauzon said:


> thank you guys so much! all i want is to excel my relationship between my horse and I. And I want to do it right! He is so willing, and my coach has taught me many NH ways with horses. and plain and simple logical things as well. I don't want to be apart of an organization that's in it for the money, the name, or just for that sake of whatever. All i want is harmony with my horse, and it IS retarted to have to spend $1000 of dollars to get there. Again, thank you guys soo sooooo much!


This is exactly why people dislike Parelli. They cater to every person new to horses and convince them that the ONLY way to have a bond is to follow their program. If you're already following some logical NH techniques, I'd advise sticking with them! We ALL incorporate a certain amount of NH techniques without even thinking about it half the time. Horse training all boils down to common sense - be sensitive when you need to be, and be firm when you need to be.

You seem like a pretty sensible person, and I really don't think you need to be spending oodles of money on this program. It sounds like you have a great coach and I would just continue as you are! Most people develop WONDERFUL relationships with their horses without ever knowing Parelli even exists, just through being thoughtful and compassionate human beings who use logic and common sense in their training programs!


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

There are many excellent "nh" trainers out there and if you watch there videos, there are many similarities. Why? Because much of it is just good horsemanship, What NRHA said is true. If you watch, it may give you more "tools" in your toolbox to use. Every horse is different, and one may react better to trainer A's technique for one thing, but not another. Watch many, take and use what you like, and what works for you. Soak it up like a sponge, and yes, it really does help to have someone there watching and helping, because a foot or hand used wrong can get the wrong result, and you may have no idea what you are doing incorrectly.


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## Fargosgirl (Jan 12, 2012)

I am in the Parelli program, when I started I had *SERIOUS* problems with my horses because of my lack of knowledge. Recently I passed my Level 2 audition, I have come a long way and now have no problems with my horses, in fact I learned that most of the "problems" I had before, were of my own making. I have never been able to afford private lessons, so I attribute most of my progress to the PNH program.

I am by no means a Koolaid drinker (as some here like to call PNH students) I do follow other techniques and trainers that fit in with my overall training principles. I have only purchased 2 training tools from Parelli (1 carrot stick, and 1 bridle) all of my other NH training tools are the cheap knock-offs from ebay. So the idea that it's all about selling equipment is false, you can do PNH with whatever NH equipment you like.

When I read rants on this forum about PNH, most of the objections I see are because of people seeing PNH students doing things they perceive as stupid or wrong, but I would like to point out that the idea of being a student is that you are LEARNING, so of course it's not going to be perfect and yes you will make stupid mistakes along the way, no matter whose training you choose to follow. Many PNH students are first time horse owners trying to train for themselves. Is that ideal? Probably not, but cut them a little slack, because it may be the best they can do right now. Getting one on one training with a pro is usually a better choice if that option is available to you. BUT by choosing to train a horse for yourself you will learn things that you can learn no other way. As for too many ground games,(the word game is simply used to remind people not to take things so seriously that they get mad at their horses) I'd rather see a beginner trying to get respect on the ground than not getting respect in the saddle.

In a nut shell, Parelli is about building a respectful, trusting, loyal bond with your horse, there are a few principal techniques and tools used to establish this, but aside from that, the student is at their own discretion.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Fargosgirl said:


> I am in the Parelli program, when I started I had *SERIOUS* problems with my horses because of my lack of knowledge. Recently I passed my Level 2 audition, I have come a long way and now have no problems with my horses, in fact I learned that most of the "problems" I had before, were of my own making. I have never been able to afford private lessons, so I attribute most of my progress to the PNH program.
> 
> I am by no means a Koolaid drinker (as some here like to call PNH students) I do follow other techniques and trainers that fit in with my overall training principles. I have only purchased 2 training tools from Parelli (1 carrot stick, and 1 bridle) all of my other NH training tools are the cheap knock-offs from ebay. So the idea that it's all about selling equipment is false, you can do PNH with whatever NH equipment you like.
> 
> ...


Except ANY training method you use, that is a good one, not an abusive one, while develop that bond. IT does NOT have to have ANYONES name on it. I still think it is incredibly limiting, for the person and the horse, to only listen to the thoughts of one or 2 if you count LP) person. There are many ways to achieve your goal. No one person has all the answers.


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## Prinella (Jul 12, 2011)

I'm what you might call a part time parelli follower. He has some good excersises but as stated they are nothing new. My trainer pays her membership and shares her log on info and DVDs etc. it worked really well for my previously dangerous Ella but we did tweak it. She tried to bite she got whacked on the nose, she reared/kicked/bucked carrot sticks hit HARD! 

My boss is an ex parelli instructor so I do have a person to turn to. 

Now I've got the 'basics' I pretty much plod along by myself watching the videos for inspiration and techniques. If something starts not working I go right back and work out what I stuffed up. If still not working my trainer explains it. 

I think it's a great tool when used PROPERLY the same as so many other things.

I will eventually join send in l1-4 assessments and then unjoin. I don't need to but quite frankly I like to have these milestones!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> Keep in mind that NH is not PP. *While PP may say he is as NH Trainer what he really is is a snake oil salesman.*
> 
> You can get what you want with out spending all that money. I have a great bond with all my horses. I have horses at the trainers who have been there for 5 years and they still know me when I come to the barn to see them and at times that could have been months and months. You can use PP and still never get the bond you want with your horse if you do not do everything correctly or like has been stated just go through the games with no reason to them.
> 
> Horses what a calm confident and resonable leader. If you can do that they will follow you anywhere you go. If you can not they will not. No amount of games will ever change those facts.


Personally, I think that Clinton Anderson falls pretty closely into that category , too. And his ego is no less enflamed than PP's, if not more.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

My problem with PP is quite simple. He is putting a name to something that has been around for a long time and selling it to unsespecting people. His horses are no better trained then any BYT out there. This is the big one for me. If you are going to promote yourself as this BNT then you better have something to back it up. He does not.

Past all that the real big problem I have is not the learning curve for the person spending the money it is what it does to the horse. I have had mares here who where PP trained and they where the hardest horses to work with. I will not take in anouther PP trained horse again. They will either have to be bred Shipped semen or not at all. They are pushy and ill tempered animals and I do now wish to work with that type of horse. There are to many good ones out there. The thing is it is not the horses falt.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> Personally, I think that Clinton Anderson falls pretty closely into that category , too. And his ego is no less enflamed than PP's, if not more.


You will not get an argurment from me on that one. 

I have some DVDs from different trainers. All are very very well proven in what they are doing on the DVD. To me if you are going to spend the money on a DVD of some trainer get the ones from the trainers who have PROVEN that what they are telling you actually works. When I say works I am not talking about in a clinic or some abstract way but by no pardison trained judges who have no dog in the fight. Have them do so against their peirs on that sport. Every one things they look good at home. What counts is when they have to do it at a given place and time against others.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

I don't care for the PP. I do like CA. Both do try to sell you on their tools and DVDs. Most of my training comes from watching CA on videos and tv, besides reading books and magazines. I take that info and use it on the horse. I have been told that I am a natural at training, so that could be why I have learned by just watching.

The reason I don't care for PP is because he/his training is hard for me to understand. It's not because of who he is, how he trains, what he sells, or what he's done. I just can't understand him, the left/right introvert/extrovert brain thing. I understand how horses behave because of their instincts and how they react to pressure. I don't want or need to be a psychologist to train a horse and that's what I get from PP. Clinton is easy to understand, at least for me. 

Whomever you understand and feel you can use their techniques, go ahead. PP is just not for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

alexislauzon said:


> thank you guys so much! *all i want is to excel my relationship between my horse and I.* And I want to do it right! He is so willing, and my coach has taught me many NH ways with horses. and plain and simple logical things as well. I don't want to be apart of an organization that's in it for the money, the name, or just for that sake of whatever. All i want is harmony with my horse, and it IS retarted to have to spend $1000 of dollars to get there. Again, thank you guys soo sooooo much!


Then just work with your horse on a daily basis and the relationship will evolve. You don't need to become a 'cult" member with any of the NH trainers to have a working relationship with your horse, nor do you need to spend money on the stuff they peddle.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I was having some issues with my Arab a couple years ago and a fellow boarder did Parelli and she had all the crap for free so I figured I'd give it a try. Her mom was a big advocate, so I got the little Parelli package for $60 which is reasonable I think. I DO love the Parelli halter, it's made of a nice thin rope and very very good for training.

Anyway, I watched the first DVD and let me tell you, had I spent money on it I would have been ****ED. All the DVD tells you is HOW to do it - it has NO instructions on what to do if it _doesn't work. _I can't even tell you how many hours I spent glaring at my horses *** and ducking down like an idiot only to have her stare at me and yawn. A lot of the other exercises were met with pinned ears and a VERY angry horse. We got absolutely nowhere. Even my Parelli friend couldn't make her do what she was "supposed" to do. I went back to basic ground work and hollerin at her, and she shaped up mighty fast.

I, personally, think DVD training is a huge farce. I think your money is FAR better spent, in ANY type of training by hiring a hands on instructor/coach to help you. It may be slightly more expensive in the long run but they can help you in present time if things don't go as they should.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> I have had mares here who where PP trained and they where the hardest horses to work with. I will not take in anouther PP trained horse again. They will either have to be bred Shipped semen or not at all. They are pushy and ill tempered animals and I do now wish to work with that type of horse. There are to many good ones out there. The thing is it is not the horses falt.


^^^ My first experience with a PP trained horse was very similar to this. 

I just started working for a reining horse trainer(I think this was in the late 90's??) There was a working student there as well. She was big into PP. We were both given colts to start. I spent as little time in the roundpen as possible. Even then I was a big fan of get an improvement and leave them alone, turn them back out. This gal would be in the roundpen Parrelli-ing the crap out her colts for long sessions. When it came down to it, her colts were crabby, ill tempered and looking for a way to "push" themselves on you. They were so sick of their jobs. Granted this may have been a user error, but I have noticed this with other PP users....the sessions are long and the horse is cranky.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> All the DVD tells you is HOW to do it - it has NO instructions on what to do if it _doesn't work. _I can't even tell you how many hours I spent glaring at my horses *** and ducking down like an idiot only to have her stare at me and yawn. A lot of the other exercises were met with pinned ears and a VERY angry horse. We got absolutely nowhere. Even my Parelli friend couldn't make her do what she was "supposed" to do. I went back to basic ground work and hollerin at her, and she shaped up mighty fast.


Ding, ding, ding!

Per PP - if the horse doesn't understand the HUMAN in the equation is doing it wrong. PP methods see one way and one way only. So those of you that say you've 'tweaked' the methods but still use them and say you are loyal to PP - no, you are not.

Not every horse will respond to one method of training. A good trainer adjusts to meet the learning ability of the horse.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

The only thing I like about PP is the TIME he emphasizes you put into your horse. He has creative ways to get you to spend TIME with your horse. The more TIME you spend with your horse the better both of you will be  Doesnt matter what system you use...it's the TIME you invest in your horse that will have the pay off in the end.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

herdbound said:


> The only thing I like about PP is the TIME he emphasizes you put into your horse. He has creative ways to get you to spend TIME with your horse. The more TIME you spend with your horse the better both of you will be  Doesnt matter what system you use...it's the TIME you invest in your horse that will have the pay off in the end.


 
This is so fare from the truth as you can get. Spending time with your horse is always a good think IF the horse likes it. 

However does not matter how much time you spend it will not equal the horse learning and getting better.

Practice does NOT make perfect. Only Perfect Practice Makes Perfect.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> This is so fare from the truth as you can get. Spending time with your horse is always a good think IF the horse likes it.
> 
> However does not matter how much time you spend it will not equal the horse learning and getting better.
> 
> Practice does NOT make perfect. Only Perfect Practice Makes Perfect.


Exactly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TimberRidgeRanch (Mar 6, 2012)

I agree with dressagedreamer CLINT ANDERSON all the way!! no circus crap with him he teaches natural horsemanship but also teaches you they are still horses not pets. They can be unpredictable creatures and babying them or playing with them isnt smart approach. Never could understand the BIG BALL BOUNCY crap lol Pat Perelli made his money off a old man who taught him. Give me CLINT any day!


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

TimberRidgeRanch said:


> Never could understand the BIG BALL BOUNCY crap lol Pat Perelli made his money off a old man who taught him. Give me CLINT any day!


One of the boarders at my barn has one of those things. We were both in the arena one day and she started bouncing that huge exercise ball off her horse. Dublin and I both thought it was the strangest thing :lol:
She started making those "something's gonna get me" snorty noises and kept spinning around so she could get a good look at that monster ball. I suppose it's good to desensitize your horse to an extent, but other than that, what exactly is the point?


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I will say-the balls are fun to play horsey soccer with.....mine loves to push it around, and I practice steering him bridle less while he does it. Then...to get him away from it.....sometimes is tougher than others.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> This is so fare from the truth as you can get. Spending time with your horse is always a good think IF the horse likes it.
> 
> However does not matter how much time you spend it will not equal the horse learning and getting better.
> 
> Practice does NOT make perfect. Only Perfect Practice Makes Perfect.


Spending time with your horse doesnt mean you are always working them to death. Taking them on a walk-along. Taking them with you to check the mail even. I take mine out and just lay in the grass and draw while they enjoy some nibbles on the grass that is usually "forbidden" from behind the fence. In a normal day just doing that right there you have practiced haltering your horse, leading your horse, say you tie it up and brush it...you have worked on being tied and touched (gentling) Spending time is the key to having a social animal that looks at people as a part of their life NOT as something that pops in and expects them to always work. Parelli has his "games" to do the same...you are spending time with your horse in a way you both enjoy. And as far as your latter comment about only Perfect Practice Makes Perfect  maybe in a perfect world you can start out being critiqued by a trainer but for the REAL world that doesn't normally happen. I was far from perfect when I started with horses. Am far from it now...but I do know I enjoy them and spending time with them helps them enjoy people more too. I will say it again...you only get out of your horse the TIME you invest in it. That is the only thing I like about PP.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Bill Dorrance's book, "True Horsemanship Through Feel" says that a person who's interested in becoming a horseman must have a LOT of time (and he adds that most people don't have the time that it takes).

So, it's true, unless one's a born natural.

This isn't to say that someone can't spend his entire life with horses yet still never savvy them much, nor gain the skills to get with them. That's been known to happen, too.


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## GreenBackJack (Feb 23, 2012)

herdbound said:


> The only thing I like about PP is the TIME he emphasizes you put into your horse. He has creative ways to get you to spend TIME with your horse. The more TIME you spend with your horse the better both of you will be  Doesnt matter what system you use...it's the TIME you invest in your horse that will have the pay off in the end.


AMEN! Very well said.
Take the time it takes and it will take less time.


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## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

Nope, it is not just time spent, but what you do with that time.-
I had a friend who was a big PP follower. Spent a Lot of time with her horse. She was quite wealthy and had retired young, and would spend hours with her horse every day. A Lot of that time was spent sitting with him in the stall, 'bonding' with him on an 'emotional' level. Lots of grooming. A fair amount circling the horse with a 'carrot stick', and a very small amount of time riding, as the horse was quite unpredictable under saddle.-
At the time I was able to go to the barn 3 or 4 times a week, for about an hour or two each time. My horse was young, a bit spooky in traffic, and tended to bolt. I would tack up, and spend most of my time in the saddle.-
After about 6 months, my horse was sane in traffic, and a good all around trail horse. Her horse was much cleaner than mine, and generally quite barn sour.-
Now please let me emphasize, I am Not Joe Horsetrainer, I just like to use as much common sense as I posess. She probably spent about 3x the hours with her horse as I did with mine.-
True, I was half her age, and a confidant rider. But if she had taken 1/3 of those hours and invested in a decent trainer, her horse could have been as good as or probably better than mine. So it is more than just time, definitely.-
-
That being said, I did not even hear of Parelli until I had about 10 years of riding (starting at age 16) under my belt. Thought he had some fine concepts. What soured me was how intelligent people would turn into blind disciples who thought Parelli was some sort of god and that every other method was wrong. -
If you want to learn about NH, I say go ahead. But remember to keep an open mind, learn about other methods, and know that Nobody knows it all.


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## RoosHuman (Dec 27, 2011)

I am a firm believer that you can learn new things (even if they are negative) from every experience with horses or people. That being said, I am not a PP fan. Largely in part from experiences I have had with a young lady pursuing her PP certification. I don't want to go into too much detail, but her horse recently developed a habit of rearing and falling over. I wonder if it has something to do with him being an arabian and wearing a tie down in combo with being straight reined in a curb bit, or if maybe it was her excessive use of spurs? Hmmm... Egos get in the way of horsemanship.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

Northern said:


> Bill Dorrance's book, "True Horsemanship Through Feel" says that a person who's interested in becoming a horseman must have a LOT of time (and he adds that most people don't have the time that it takes).


Yep. Just like any relationship time is the most important thing and unfortunately in this day and age we just don't have the time needed. I feel sorry for horses that spend most of their time stuck in a stall then get yanked out when the owner grabs a spare hour or two on the weekend and it acts up or is difficult and the horse somehow gets blamed for it. It would be like your husband working all week, scheduling you in for a 2 hour date on Saturday night...dictating what your going to do (which happens to be something HE likes to do) and then him whirling off as soon as it's over and expecting you to feel fulfilled in the relationship. It is a relationship. Just spending time with your horse helps both of you get to know and understand what is expected out of each other.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

Skipsfirstspike said:


> I had a friend who was a big PP follower. Spent a Lot of time with her horse. She was quite wealthy and had retired young, and would spend hours with her horse every day. A Lot of that time was spent sitting with him in the stall, 'bonding' with him on an 'emotional' level. Lots of grooming. A fair amount circling the horse with a 'carrot stick', and a very small amount of time riding, as the horse was quite unpredictable under saddle.-
> At the time I was able to go to the barn 3 or 4 times a week, for about an hour or two each time. My horse was young, a bit spooky in traffic, and tended to bolt. I would tack up, and spend most of my time in the saddle.-
> After about 6 months, my horse was sane in traffic, and a good all around trail horse. Her horse was much cleaner than mine, and generally quite barn sour.-
> Now please let me emphasize, I am Not Joe Horsetrainer, I just like to use as much common sense as I posess. She probably spent about 3x the hours with her horse as I did with mine.-


I agree saddle time is the best thing for a horse to "learn" from. Ground work is great...BUT it is not the end all. I would say if you broke it down...maybe 10% having quiet bonding/fun time... 20% groundwork and 70% saddle work break it down to what I do with my horses. I understand what you are saying maybe I should have been more clear in how I said it. I was trying to say if you get a horse and stick it in a stall and show up once a week and pull it out and expect it to be perfect, unless you are really blessed, thats not going to work out. They need to get out, excercise, get their minds stimulated and if you can do that with them it does help you bond.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

I think that the best kind of horsemanship is the kind where nothing is ruled out. Of course I don't like the whips etc. type of training, I still believe that whatever works for you and that particular horse is the best kind. So Parelli might be great for one person and then awful and not work at all for the next. I don't think that is a problem with Parelli though, I think I all depends on the horse.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

herdbound said:


> Yep. Just like any relationship time is the most important thing and unfortunately in this day and age we just don't have the time needed. I feel sorry for horses that spend most of their time stuck in a stall then get yanked out when the owner grabs a spare hour or two on the weekend and it acts up or is difficult and the horse somehow gets blamed for it. It would be like your husband working all week, scheduling you in for a 2 hour date on Saturday night...dictating what your going to do (which happens to be something HE likes to do) and then him whirling off as soon as it's over and expecting you to feel fulfilled in the relationship. It is a relationship. Just spending time with your horse helps both of you get to know and understand what is expected out of each other.


I couldn't get any farther than this in updating on the new posts. To compare my relationship with my horse with that of my husband is about the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard. When my horse starts writing the checks and paying to keep my DH, maybe the horse will get the "vote" on what we do on our "dates". I love my horses, really I do, but they do not have human feelings. That is a MAJOR mistake. They are animals, and pets. THe thought o a horse needing to "be fulfilled" in a relationship....????" REALLY?


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> I couldn't get any farther than this in updating on the new posts. To compare my relationship with my horse with that of my husband is about the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard. When my horse starts writing the checks and paying to keep my DH, maybe the horse will get the "vote" on what we do on our "dates". I love my horses, really I do, but they do not have human feelings. That is a MAJOR mistake. They are animals, and pets. THe thought o a horse needing to "be fulfilled" in a relationship....????" REALLY?


I don't know if I would go as far as using a comparison as a husband, but I get and agree with the basis of what herdbound is saying. Horses do have feelings and they need constant attention, not just when we feel like it. I also though don't think that is what the original poster was saying.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> I couldn't get any farther than this in updating on the new posts. To compare my relationship with my horse with that of my husband is about the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard. When my horse starts writing the checks and paying to keep my DH, maybe the horse will get the "vote" on what we do on our "dates". I love my horses, really I do, but they do not have human feelings. That is a MAJOR mistake. They are animals, and pets. THe thought o a horse needing to "be fulfilled" in a relationship....????" REALLY?


Lol if you read any of the stuff I ever write on hear you will know I hate when people "humanize" horses...I think it ruins them. I used that because its the only relationship I know that would explain being unfulfilled with your partner...I do believe it is a relationship...it has its own dynamics though....I was just using a relationship people would understand to illustrate my point. Thats all


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

If I tried to play all the stupid games with any of my horses they would want to kill me. They are bred to work and that is what they want and love to do.

Playing games or just fidling is not in their make up. The bond I have with all my horses I would put up against any bond out there. We under stand each other they love to work and even more work for me.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> If I tried to play all the stupid games with any of my horses they would want to kill me. They are bred to work and that is what they want and love to do.
> 
> Playing games or just fidling is not in their make up. The bond I have with all my horses I would put up against any bond out there. We under stand each other they love to work and even more work for me.


I understand this, but a horses purpose in life is not to work if that is what you are saying?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> I understand this, but a horses purpose in life is not to work if that is what you are saying?


 
Sure it is. What do you think they have been doing for the past 2 thousend years? Working. Taking solders into badle. Pulling plows rounding up cattle on the range. That is what they where bred and trained to do. Since the advant of the auto that just about made horses obsolet we have found other uses for horses. Some are still used on big ramodas out west some are show horses. However they are still bred to work. Well at least mine are. They love it they want to do it. They are not happy just sitting around doing nothing.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Sure it is. What do you think they have been doing for the past 2 thousend years? Working. Taking solders into badle. Pulling plows rounding up cattle on the range. That is what they where bred and trained to do. Since the advant of the auto that just about made horses obsolet we have found other uses for horses. Some are still used on big ramodas out west some are show horses. However they are still bred to work. Well at least mine are. They love it they want to do it. They are not happy just sitting around doing nothing.


Horses are not on the planet to be worked. Neither are humans. They deserve to be understood and cared for and loved. A horse can be born and not born to work, but still be happy. I don't believe for a second that my horses were "born to work" yet they are very happy. We go riding and live a relaxed life. They are happy horses. Yes certain horses need jobs....as long as it isn't all they are getting from life. Can you imagine if everything on the planet was just here to work? It'd be terrifying.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

My problem with all these "NH" people who are marketing a "system" is just that. They are trying to market a system. None of them actually invented training horses in a natural manner. They all have good things and bad.
I wouldn't recommend any of them, but would suggest you look at them all and use anything that works well for you and your horse. I had the very good fortune to have a grandfather and other relatives who in some cases had started with horses by 1900. They were great and the right way was the way the worked with the least amount of work and stress.
I was once told there are many ways to skin a cat and even more ways to train a horse.
These people are out to make a $ first and foremost (look at what they charge). I'm always a bit amused at how fanatical some of their followers can be. Perhaps I should have gone into that line of work ) but I'd rather help folks for free. Like the men who mentored me as a child training my first horse, the real joy is watching someone being successful at training the horse and seeing the horse bond to that person so ultimately it wants to learn and do things right. How can you put a price on that?

Rather than spend the money on what these people offer, glean what's out there for ideas. Ask people about what they've learned and know. But first and foremost, use common sense. Learn you horse and know yourself. Some horses learn quickly and easily. Some more slowly with LOTs of "baby steps". Contrary to what PP and others will imply what works well with one hose might not work well with another. But with time, patience and work you'd be amazed at what you can accomplish with a horse.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Again you are putting a human feling to a horse. They are and always have been bred to work. Now that we do not have to depend on them for everything we do like we did over a 100 years ago people have gotten away from breeding horses to put in a days work. However mine are bred to work. That is why they love it. They are the most happy when they have a job to do. If you do not give them one they WILL find one and you probably will not like what they find. The problem is that horses now days are just bred with little thought to what they can will or should do. People just want a cute baby to play with and if you really needed to ask that horse to work they could not to save their life. They are not physicaly or mentaly able to do anything.

It is great that your horse is happy just pluging a long mine are not. When I put my hat on to go into the arena my horses know what that mean and they are all business and ready to do their job.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Again you are putting a human feling to a horse. They are and always have been bred to work. Now that we do not have to depend on them for everything we do like we did over a 100 years ago people have gotten away from breeding horses to put in a days work. However mine are bred to work. That is why they love it. They are the most happy when they have a job to do. If you do not give them one they WILL find one and you probably will not like what they find. The problem is that horses now days are just bred with little thought to what they can will or should do. People just want a cute baby to play with and if you really needed to ask that horse to work they could not to save their life. They are not physicaly or mentaly able to do anything.
> 
> It is great that your horse is happy just pluging a long mine are not. When I put my hat on to go into the arena my horses know what that mean and they are all business and ready to do their job.


Why do you believe that horses don't have feelings close to humans?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

B/C they do not. They are horses livestock. They have fellings but not human fellings. They do not look at things the way we do.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> B/C they do not. They are horses livestock. They have fellings but not human fellings. They do not look at things the way we do.


Because they don't? Thats your answer? How do you KNOW? Yeah they do have feelings, very strong ones and not exactly the same as ours, fairly close I believe. My horse and I don't just "plug" along all the time. I also don't do the same with every horse. One horse I have does want a job, but I don't just give it to him. I also make sure he feels safe, loved and understood. Because he has feelings too.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

EmilyRosie said:


> Why do you believe that horses don't have feelings close to humans?


**HEAD/desk**

and as much as I like this discussion, it really is off topic, and could be its own thread........

If animals had feelings and intelligence like humans, they would be buying, training and selling us. THere is a difference, and, miss emily, horses are not all fairytales butterflies, and peachy keen relationships where you frolic together in the pasture, which is what I am hearing you are thinking.

And, IMO, you make a huge mistake when you put human emotions to a horse. Let alone those of you who compare that relationship to a marriage.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

EmilyRosie said:


> Why do you believe that horses don't have feelings close to humans?


They display "human-like" qualities but I think it is an insult to the horse to say it acts like a human-being. They have a really well-balanced society. It is hard knocks at time no doubt, I mean the boss don't take no crap from her underlings...BUT it is devoid of a lot of negative human traits too. A horse is honest. It is simple. It lives in the moment. It does find pleasure in having a purpose too. They like to have a job just like you and I do...it stimulates their minds and bodies and keeps them sane. BUT they don't understand a humans need to be loved. And thats a really hard thing to grasp. Human love says "I feel so strongly for you I would never hurt you I want to express my feelings by coming in close to you and spoiling you with gifts that make you happy." A horses kind of "love" and I only use that word loosely is expressed by it following you, listening to you, and obeying you. That is how they express their devotion in their society. It isn't as needy or clingy as human love. I have heard it referred to as respect...I don't know if that word is appropriate either. It is simple. You are my leader I will follow you to deaths door if I trust you as my leader...I fear no thing or situation more than disappointing you as my leader. A horse that trusts, respects, "loves" it's owner will do that. It would ride through fire if it's leader told it to just cause it is that bonded but it isn't because of love it would do it...it is a natural instinct in them to follow the leader. It is a primitive drive of sorts. Humans often confuse horses with their displays of emotions and such. It is the path of good intentions that lead many horses to hell. Some horses can handle it...but many of them get so confused by the mixed signals of us having them in our space and in our faces all the time they take it as submission and exploit it as we are weaker and lesser in the relationship.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> **HEAD/desk**
> 
> and as much as I like this discussion, it really is off topic, and could be its own thread........
> 
> ...


I am not stupid so do not talk to me like I am. I said that horses obviously don't have the exact same feelings as humans. I also never said that they had the same intelligence although I do wholeheartedly believe that they are EXTREMELY intelligent. I don't believe that they are all (can't even believe I have to say this) "fairytales butterflies and peachy keen relationships where you frolic together in the pasture" I do believe that horses are misunderstood and it makes me sad that some people believe there purpose on the planet is to work. When I got one of my horses, she was rearing up at me and I did not just go "Oh okay, I upset you? I'm sorry." Which is the version of me I think you have in your head. I think that horses do have very strong feelings though and they need to feel safe and loved and honestly cared for. They aren't just machines.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

So you have a horse who wants a job but you will not give me a job? Why? If he wants and needs a job they you need to give him one. That is what will make him his happiest. I can tell when my horses are not happy when they are just sitting in the pasture or when I am just walking them arond and not asking anything from them. They get board and they want to work and do something. 

And no a horses fellings are not like ours. If they where then they would feel bad and miss their parents when they are gone or their foal when it leaves. They would not want to leave their mate. Horses form bonds but not like what you think of a bond like a human would. They form bonds in a herd situation to form a hiarky. A lower level horse will bond with a higher level horse so it can eat. It has no other reason to do so but to make life a bit easier and get more food. A dominent horse will let the lower level horse around to get things done. They may like that horse for some reason but if you watch there is a reason. With mares is could be as simple as needing a sitter for foal.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

herdbound said:


> They display "human-like" qualities but I think it is an insult to the horse to say it acts like a human-being. They have a really well-balanced society. It is hard knocks at time no doubt, I mean the boss don't take no crap from her underlings...BUT it is devoid of a lot of negative human traits too. A horse is honest. It is simple. It lives in the moment. It does find pleasure in having a purpose too. They like to have a job just like you and I do...it stimulates their minds and bodies and keeps them sane. BUT they don't understand a humans need to be loved. And thats a really hard thing to grasp. Human love says "I feel so strongly for you I would never hurt you I want to express my feelings by coming in close to you and spoiling you with gifts that make you happy." A horses kind of "love" and I only use that word loosely is expressed by it following you, listening to you, and obeying you. That is how they express their devotion in their society. It isn't as needy or clingy as human love. I have heard it referred to as respect...I don't know if that word is appropriate either. It is simple. You are my leader I will follow you to deaths door if I trust you as my leader...I fear no thing or situation more than disappointing you as my leader. A horse that trusts, respects, "loves" it's owner will do that. It would ride through fire if it's leader told it to just cause it is that bonded but it isn't because of love it would do it...it is a natural instinct in them to follow the leader. It is a primitive drive of sorts. Humans often confuse horses with their displays of emotions and such. It is the path of good intentions that lead many horses to hell. Some horses can handle it...but many of them get so confused by the mixed signals of us having them in our space and in our faces all the time they take it as submission and exploit it as we are weaker and lesser in the relationship.


Yeah this is what I agree with, I'm not saying to be a pushover. I also said "close to humans" not exactly the same which I think is getting missed. They have their own psychology, a thinking process which isn't the same as humans but resembles some similarities. They need to know that they are safe which to them means having a leader of them and if there is more than one then a lead of their "herd".


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

EmilyRosie said:


> I am not stupid so do not talk to me like I am. I said that horses obviously don't have the exact same feelings as humans. I also never said that they had the same intelligence although I do wholeheartedly believe that they are EXTREMELY intelligent. I don't believe that they are all (can't even believe I have to say this) "fairytales butterflies and peachy keen relationships where you frolic together in the pasture" I do believe that horses are misunderstood and it makes me sad that some people believe there purpose on the planet is to work. When I got one of my horses, she was rearing up at me and I did not just go "Oh okay, I upset you? I'm sorry." Which is the version of me I think you have in your head. I think that horses do have very strong feelings though and they need to feel safe and loved and honestly cared for. They aren't just machines.


Noone is saying they are machines. Not at all. But they do not have feelings like people have. Period. It has been explained to you so at this point, we will have to agree to disagree. I will not continue to discuss it with you. It is clear we will never agree. Sorry, but the image I described is the vision I have. I only get that from reading what you have written.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> So you have a horse who wants a job but you will not give me a job? Why? If he wants and needs a job they you need to give him one. That is what will make him his happiest. I can tell when my horses are not happy when they are just sitting in the pasture or when I am just walking them arond and not asking anything from them. They get board and they want to work and do something.
> 
> And no a horses fellings are not like ours. If they where then they would feel bad and miss their parents when they are gone or their foal when it leaves. They would not want to leave their mate. Horses form bonds but not like what you think of a bond like a human would. They form bonds in a herd situation to form a hiarky. A lower level horse will bond with a higher level horse so it can eat. It has no other reason to do so but to make life a bit easier and get more food. A dominent horse will let the lower level horse around to get things done. They may like that horse for some reason but if you watch there is a reason. With mares is could be as simple as needing a sitter for foal.


I responded to most of that in a post I was writing when you posted this except, I don't think that horses need to be busy 24/7. I think they want time to spend with their (lets say leader?) leader and it is important to them that they know that that person is there or else they have to fend for themselves. When establishing leadership with a horse, do you consider that giving them a job? Or do you just consider a job helping move things around the farm etc?


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> That is what will make him his happiest. I can tell when my horses are not happy when they are just sitting in the pasture or when I am just walking them arond and not asking anything from them. They get board and they want to work and do something.


My horses like to work. They enjoy getting out and about and enjoying trails, my mare even likes to tote around me and my fencing equipment and help me mend fences...BUT I think she is also quite content with her head down in a fresh round bale of hay too....doing nada  I think there has to be balance in the program you go with...and balance for a horse or a human brings contentment.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> I think that horses do have very strong feelings though and they need to feel safe and loved and honestly cared for. They aren't just machines.


Yes and they get that by you being a strong leader and giving them set rules. They get those rules through work. In the wild that work would be moving from place to place looking for food and water and staying away from preditors. 

Demestice horses have these things provided for them so you must sub. anouther form of work and by doing this you are their leader. My horses work for everything they get in many ways. They get treats but they do not get them from me well they do but they do not think they come from me. I do not just go up and give them treats. They work for them. They have to flex to get a treat or they have to work to get the treats out of a milk jug hanging from the rafters of their stall. They want grass? They have to walk or most of the time run out to the back pasture to get it. Same with just about anything they get. They work for it. It keeps them thinking moveing and happy. More then anything they love to show. I have yet to have a horse who did not just love to go to shows. My stallion had a huge fear of horse trainers do to a former owner. The first few times I took him to a show he was hard to load. Once he got the idea that getting in a trailer ment going to a horse show he would jump in. Going home? Not so much. Same with every other horse I have ever owned. They love it. They love the work the chalange as do I. Perhaps that is why they love it. I love to work them my trainer loves to work them I love to show my trainer loves it and since we are their leaders at that given time they love it to.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

EmilyRosie said:


> I think they want time to spend with their (lets say leader?) leader and it is important to them that they know that that person is there or else they have to fend for themselves.


The truth is a horse can only truly relax when it feels safe. A strong confident leader makes them feel safe. They enjoy being close to this person because they can relax and feel safe...even if they are working their rear end off. They are satisfied and safe. Thats the best way to show a horse "love" give him the direction and strength to relax and enjoy being a horse.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

herdbound said:


> The truth is a horse can only truly relax when it feels safe. A strong confident leader makes them feel safe. They enjoy being close to this person because they can relax and feel safe...even if they are working their rear end off. They are satisfied and safe. Thats the best way to show a horse "love" give him the direction and strength to relax and enjoy being a horse.


Yeah I think that is kind of what I've already said. A horse needs a true leader. They want to spend time with that leader. They crave safety. A feeling.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

herdbound said:


> My horses like to work. They enjoy getting out and about and enjoying trails, my mare even likes to tote around me and my fencing equipment and help me mend fences...BUT I think she is also quite content with her head down in a fresh round bale of hay too....doing nada  I think there has to be balance in the program you go with...and balance for a horse or a human brings contentment.


 
I agree just like people horses need their down time. They like to eat as do I. However past the need to eat to stay alive my horses will stop eating and come to the gate or the barn when they see me coming with a halter/bridle to work. 

This is what they love doing.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> Yeah I think that is kind of what I've already said. A horse needs a true leader. They want to spend time with that leader. They crave safety. A feeling.


 
However the horse can get all that and be working at the same time. They do not just get that when standing in the pasture or hanging out with you.

When my horses are all out in the pasture together Cassie is the leader. They all follow her. She is more then happy to lead. However the second the mares see me coming the dinamic changes and I am now the leader and even Cassie will follow me. Nothing changes when I put a saddle on them and swing a leg over. I am still the leader they still fell safe and they are relaxed.


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## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

I skipped over some pages so sorry if I repeat anything.

I'll admit I first fell into the Parelli trap in the beginning. I went to one of his clinics and regretfully bought a t-shirt or two. I had went to a Clinton Anderson clinic before this and it doesn't even compare.

Parelli is completely a money making scheme. His clinic I went to was pointless. He didn't teach us anything. All he did, as I have repeated elsewhere before, is basically "watch me dance with my prettyful horse to music!" for the entire thing. Would play music and play with the horse at liberty...while saying nothing. Apparently we were suppose to learn from that? Right....He just wants you to buy product.

The only entertaining part of the entire clinic for me was when he tried to do some funky thing with a rope around the horses body. He wanted the horse to give to pressure and spin or something but the horse wanted no part. Horse bolted while Pat Parelli was standing in the coiled pile of rope on the ground, wrapped around his foot, whipped him to the ground, the horse drug him across the arena and then crashed into some metal panels. Pat left the arena limping and his wife took over for pretty much the rest of the show. 

Also the trailer loading segment he did, the horse they brought in wasn't bad at all. The owner said everything in the book with this horse: spooks at everything, aggressive, kicks, bites, pushy, doesn't load etc. Meanwhile the horse was just calmly standing inside an indoor arena with the audience clapping and not even flicking a tail. He took the horse and put some treats on top of some barrels (wtf?) the horse ate them, brought him to the trailer and he calmly walked in on the first try. Problem horse my butt.

I've seen Clinton Anderson twice and though he may be similar to Parelli as far as money making goes. IMO his stuff is much more easy to follow, he's entertaining, and his training is much less "horse who farts rainbows" stuff. He gets to the point. And he actually teaches you things at his clinics and the horses he use actually have problems.

Pat Parelli is coming to speak in my Equine Behavior class in a month or so...I'm really not looking forward to that day -sigh-.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

Bridgertrot said:


> The only entertaining part of the entire clinic for me was when he tried to do some funky thing with a rope around the horses body. He wanted the horse to give to pressure and spin or something but the horse wanted no part. Horse bolted while Pat Parelli was standing in the coiled pile of rope on the ground, wrapped around his foot, whipped him to the ground, the horse drug him across the arena and then crashed into some metal panels. Pat left the arena limping and his wife took over for pretty much the rest of the show.


Two things. #1 I would pay $49.95 for that PP video...omg I think I would pay $99.99 for that video 

#2 You have BEAUTIFUL horses nrhareiner.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> However the horse can get all that and be working at the same time. They do not just get that when standing in the pasture or hanging out with you.
> 
> When my horses are all out in the pasture together Cassie is the leader. They all follow her. She is more then happy to lead. However the second the mares see me coming the dinamic changes and I am now the leader and even Cassie will follow me. Nothing changes when I put a saddle on them and swing a leg over. I am still the leader they still fell safe and they are relaxed.


Yeah I know they can get all that at the same time but that is also only as long as you have already established leadership and absolutely none of this means that horses were born to work.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

EmilyRosie said:


> Yeah I know they can get all that at the same time but that is also only as long as you have already established leadership and absolutely none of this means that horses were born to work.


You are right in a sense Emily...in true Natural Horsemanship...which in my book is an oxymoron...a horse wouldn't "work" for humans...he/she would be grazing, mating, having babies, growing old and dying as a horse...maybe we could sneek a peek or two here and there and enjoy their beauty. We would never interfere with "natural" cycle. Never train them, fence them in, halter them, bridle them, and show them. That would be the "natural" way. BUT that isn't the way it is. They are a part of our world now. They have been domesticated. Changed. And here is thought about it. Horses exist as pleasure and as companion animals with a purpose for humans. Animals that don't have a job or a use like the horse does finds it's self on our plates. So in a way the "work" we have created for them, although taking away much of their natural freedom" also saves them from being of other non-pleasant uses to humans. I understand completely what you are saying.

I think that whatever system this OP goes with there are pro's and cons. I like some stuff from about each and every trainer out there BUT I would never sacrifice my own skills or my intuition when dealing with a horse up close and personal. You kinda learn your own methods. The thing I can say I dislike about ALL of them...is their followers. The "worshipers" of these people have turned me off to even trying to follow any of them more times than not.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

its lbs not miles said:


> But first and foremost, use common sense. Learn you horse and know yourself. Some horses learn quickly and easily. Some more slowly with LOTs of "baby steps". Contrary to what PP and others will imply what works well with one hose might not work well with another. But with time, patience and work you'd be amazed at what you can accomplish with a horse.


This is my biggest problem with most of them too...besides the constant need to buy something...they act as if EVERY horse will respond to training exactly like the one before. This is a LIE. And they also make people feel bad or inept or as if they have failed animals because their system does not work for a certain horse. Certain horses cannot be handled in PP system. They can't. PP is a little too soft for some horses and it is made out to be that your doing something wrong if the horse is not progressing in this system. I wouldn't try the PP system on a horse that is extremely dominant or even the slightest bit aggressive. They pull at peoples heart strings alot and say well you just don't have the patience to apply this sytem to X horse. BS...I say deal with REAL horses for any amount of time and you will get the drift...there are horses out there that no matter how much time you spend, how patient you are...they just refuse to do a "soft" system like PP...then the owner goes off feeling like a failure cause PP says it should have worked. Shoulda, coulda, woulda...DIDN'T.


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## GreenBackJack (Feb 23, 2012)

Well this discussion got entertaining! Haven't seen the poor OP for pages now. LOL 
Whether your horse is taking you out for candle lit dinners, farting rainbows or working his tail off around the farm/arena, the bottom line is that's a **** big animal and it will eventually main or kill you if you don't know what the hell you are doing. 
For the OP, read everything, learn from skilled trainers and wise horsemen. Take the time to do it right and use your better judgment at all times. Never forget, that a horse is about a 1,000 pounds of muscled beast on four powerful pistons capped with rock hard hooves and a mind of it's own so you **** well better be smarter, quicker to respond and several steps ahead of it at all times. 
...after that, you can share an icecream together on the rainbow hill and talk smack about the unicorns.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

......I am severely disappointed that I can't make a smart remark after that post. I feel as though it would get me in trouble so I'm going to keep my mouth shut..lol I agree with you GreenBlackJack, and I wish I could add to that..


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> Yeah I know they can get all that at the same time but that is also only as long as you have already established leadership and absolutely none of this means that horses were born to work.


It's only work if you'd rather be doing something else.

Dogs were domesticated, and breeds were created, to do _work_. There may be a few toy-type breeds that are little more than lap-warmers, but most of the breeds that exist today were not developed to be house pets. They were bred for a purpose, whether it's hunting or herding or driving or drafting or guarding homes and livestock. The dog may not see what it's doing as "work," but that doesn't mean it isn't being used by people to make our own lives easier or better in some way. 

Same goes for horses. We use them for "work," but that doesn't mean the horse can't enjoy what it's doing. I can honestly say that my horse likes going out on trail. He has a spring to his step when he moves, his little ears are perked up, and the more challenging the trail the more fun he seems to have. Sometimes I wonder if he's having more fun out there than I am.:lol: 

In the same way, just because certain NH gurus say that certain activities you can do with your horse are "games" or "play" it doesn't mean the horse thinks it's fun. I've seen more than a few sour, bored, irritated-looking horses being "played with" and having sticks and ropes and balls waved in their faces.:wink: 

As for those same gurus recommending spending time with your horses - do you really need to pay for a training system to be told to spend time with your animal? Is it really _that_ revolutionary of an idea for some people? When I was a kid, you couldn't get me OUT of a barn. I didn't have to be on a horse's back to enjoy being around them. . .and that hasn't changed much.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

Jolly Badger said:


> It's only work if you'd rather be doing something else.
> 
> Dogs were domesticated, and breeds were created, to do _work_. There may be a few toy-type breeds that are little more than lap-warmers, but most of the breeds that exist today were not developed to be house pets. They were bred for a purpose, whether it's hunting or herding or driving or drafting or guarding homes and livestock. The dog may not see what it's doing as "work," but that doesn't mean it isn't being used by people to make our own lives easier or better in some way.
> 
> ...


Okay there is one big thing here though. Our horses aren't in the wild. So yes *some of the time *we give them "jobs", but that doesn't mean that horses were born to work _still_. You can't just jump on the back of a random horse and start going, why? Because there is no relationship, no leadership, no trust. If you consider going on a trail ride a job then sure my horses get that job almost every day. But if you are trying to tell me that a 20 year old horse got to sit in a paddock and eat, sleep and go out for walks would be a depressed (or whatever word you want to use) horse? That would be wrong. There should be a healthy mix of work and play for the horse. But *not* all the work should be work that benefits humans. Maybe taking your horse in a roundpen and letting it show how it feels is the best thing to do on one day. Horses are not here to benefit us, they are their own being. They have feelings and worry and fright. It is our job as humans to make them feel comfortable about it all and then have a healthy "benefits both human and horse" relationship. Horses are incredible and they do feel things. Like a mother and a foal or two best friend horses. A herd member is lost, they feel that. A herd member is gained, they feel that. Except with our horses usually the "herd members" are us.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Herd members aren't gained..Especially if you want to talk about wild herds..Wild herds steal mares from other herds..There is no "You have a choice, lets be friends" ..In most instances the stallion or dominant mare will take other mares from other herds..Or the horse has to be let into the herd, after being pushed around, bitten, kicked, chased..the whole deal..There is no "Oh hai! Join our club!?"


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

herdbound said:


> This is my biggest problem with most of them too...besides the constant need to buy something...they act as if EVERY horse will respond to training exactly like the one before. This is a LIE. And they also make people feel bad or inept or as if they have failed animals because their system does not work for a certain horse. Certain horses cannot be handled in PP system. They can't. PP is a little too soft for some horses and it is made out to be that your doing something wrong if the horse is not progressing in this system. I wouldn't try the PP system on a horse that is extremely dominant or even the slightest bit aggressive. They pull at peoples heart strings alot and say well you just don't have the patience to apply this sytem to X horse. BS...I say deal with REAL horses for any amount of time and you will get the drift...there are horses out there that no matter how much time you spend, how patient you are...they just refuse to do a "soft" system like PP...then the owner goes off feeling like a failure cause PP says it should have worked. Shoulda, coulda, woulda...DIDN'T.


My mare was a good example of what you said about a dominate horse not doing well with PP. She's a lovely animals and the easiest I've every trained as far as picking up and accepting some things (e.g. I had her saddled 5 min after the first day she ever saw a saddle up close. Was on her back walking around the paddock the 2nd day). A PP fan was going to shoe me how to teach her to back up (I'll let them try ). She didn't get it and has they elevated the "pressure" with the lead she was about ready to rear up. I spent about 5 minutes, with no halter, just some hand pressure and motions (praise and rewards....she's just a treat hog :lol she was backing up with no problem.
............
 and then you have an animal like my filly that PP is actually to agressive for :lol:
I had a PP fan tell me to try somethings she'd learned from the clinic she'd attended for teaching her to give me (or let me take) her back feet. Always willing to try something new , but my filly wasn't having any of it. So back to granddad's rule....find what works for the horse. I took two weeks of small steps (with a lot of praise and rewards for each or her smallest successes), but in the end she'd give me one foot and have the other one raised as soon as I put the first back down.

PP was saying if they don't respond get harder. That will work with some (works with my mare for some things). But if a 1350+ lb animal doesn't like it and is not going to take it you're hard pressed to make them do it that way.

I think a lot of people have good ideas and there's always something that will work with some horses. There are some things that will work with most horses. There might me a few things that can work with all horses (there's something that has always worked for me). I've yet to see anyone with a "system" where everything they promote works with every horse. If they had then it would be the only system everyone would be using. After all, for the length of time that humans have been training and utilizing the horse someone would have figured it out if there was a system that always worked with every horse.

I'll take your word for it about how the ply their sales pitch. I've seen more of PP than the others (e.g. Anderson, MR, etc...) and his is almost shameless. What I have seen of his "product" I'll have to agree with another poster and ask exactly what is it you're paying for? Might due for my granddaughter who knows nothing about training a horse, but it was a waste of an hour of my afternoon watching it. Like someone else said...watch me get this horse to do what I wan't.... Impress me: do it with a horse that is determined not to respond to your technique. Of course they he ends up hog tying the animal or something dangerous that goes beyond what he's professing to be marketing. I just remain dumbfounded that people pay those prices for his DVD's or clinics. (I need to go kiss my grandfather's tombstone and say "thanks" again)


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

EmilyRosie said:


> Okay there is one big thing here though. Our horses aren't in the wild. So yes *some of the time *we give them "jobs", but that doesn't mean that horses were born to work _still_. You can't just jump on the back of a random horse and start going, why? Because there is no relationship, no leadership, no trust. If you consider going on a trail ride a job then sure my horses get that job almost every day. But if you are trying to tell me that a 20 year old horse got to sit in a paddock and eat, sleep and go out for walks would be a depressed (or whatever word you want to use) horse? That would be wrong. There should be a healthy mix of work and play for the horse. But *not* all the work should be work that benefits humans. Maybe taking your horse in a roundpen and letting it show how it feels is the best thing to do on one day. Horses are not here to benefit us, they are their own being. They have feelings and worry and fright. It is our job as humans to make them feel comfortable about it all and then have a healthy "benefits both human and horse" relationship. Horses are incredible and they do feel things. Like a mother and a foal or two best friend horses. A herd member is lost, they feel that. A herd member is gained, they feel that. Except with our horses usually the "herd members" are us.


You have never been around cowhorses I am guessing? Cowhorses love and live to work cows....mine love it and will do it even in their "spare" time in the pasture if the neighbors cows jump the fence or the calves get too close. When it's time to go to work and I come to the gate with the halters, they are ready to go. If given too much time off without work they find their own job, which includes destroying something much like a dog that is chained and frustrated. Horses are bred to work, they were brought to America(actually Mexico) on ships to do just that, work and manage cattle. That is what the mustang derived from, working Spanish horses.

And ditto on Drums response on herd members. A mares _instinct_ is to protect and raise that foal for procreation of the species. If that instinct wasn't there, she would care less if the foal survived and the species would die out. I would hardly call motherly instinct "love"...two different things.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I have to add this because I thought it was funny....

There is an article in Western Horseman about the "Horseman's Reunion" at the Madonna Inn in April, a bunch of big names the Neubert boys, Frank Dominguez, Martin Black and such are attending.
My husband was reading that and came to Pat Parelli's name and says-
" Hell, if I was Pat Parelli, I think I would call in sick with a case of the not-good-enoughs."

I thought it was pretty **** funny...


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> Okay there is one big thing here though. Our horses aren't in the wild. So yes *some of the time *we give them "jobs", but that doesn't mean that horses were born to work _still_. You can't just jump on the back of a random horse and start going, why? Because there is no relationship, no leadership, no trust. If you consider going on a trail ride a job then sure my horses get that job almost every day. But if you are trying to tell me that a 20 year old horse got to sit in a paddock and eat, sleep and go out for walks would be a depressed (or whatever word you want to use) horse? That would be wrong. There should be a healthy mix of work and play for the horse. But *not* all the work should be work that benefits humans. Maybe taking your horse in a roundpen and letting it show how it feels is the best thing to do on one day. Horses are not here to benefit us, they are their own being. They have feelings and worry and fright. It is our job as humans to make them feel comfortable about it all and then have a healthy "benefits both human and horse" relationship. Horses are incredible and they do feel things. Like a mother and a foal or two best friend horses. A herd member is lost, they feel that. A herd member is gained, they feel that. Except with our horses usually the "herd members" are us.


This isn't some kind of My Little Pony meets Bob Ross in a round pen thing.

This is reality. They are horses. 

They respond based on instinct, temperament, and training - not human "feelings."


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

All I can say EmilyRosie is do not ever buy a cutting or reining bred QH. You will not be happy and the horse will really not be happy. They need a job and they love to work. Mine will find something to do if I do not give them something to do and at the end of the day it makes a lot more for me to do when they have nothing to do as they went out and found something to do. See it is a never ending problem when a working horse gets board.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

EmilyRosie said:


> Okay there is one big thing here though. Our horses aren't in the wild. So yes *some of the time *we give them "jobs", but that doesn't mean that horses were born to work _still_. You can't just jump on the back of a random horse and start going, why? Because there is no relationship, no leadership, no trust. Not true. Do you think that people taking lessons at a major riding barn have a "relationship" with the horse they are assigned? No. Shoot, I showed up for a reining lesson a couple of weeks ago-they said-go get the horse in the 3rd stall. I never even laid eyes on him before! And-he was FABULOUS! If you consider going on a trail ride a job then sure my horses get that job almost every day.Trail riding is a fine job. And yes, it IS one. IT is doing what YOU want to do That is your horses JOB! But if you are trying to tell me that a 20 year old horse got to sit in a paddock and eat, sleep and go out for walks would be a depressed (or whatever word you want to use) horse? That would be wrong.Wanna bet? My retired guy would MUCH rather be going out on trails. He is thrilled when I go out and get him to go walk out in the woods. And-just FYI-just because it is walking, it is no less of a job. It is one that is to his ability anymore. There should be a healthy mix of work and play for the horse. But *not* all the work should be work that benefits humans. Maybe taking your horse in a roundpen and letting it show how it feels is the best thing to do on one day. Horses are not here to benefit us, they are their own being. My horse gets about 22 hrs a day to himself. I think that is plenty, and I do not think asking him to give me a measly 2 is too much to ask. They have feelings and worry and fright. It is our job as humans to make them feel comfortable about it all and then have a healthy "benefits both human and horse" relationship. Horses are incredible and they do feel things. Like a mother and a foal or two best friend horses. A herd member is lost, they feel that. A herd member is gained, they feel that. Except with our horses usually the "herd members" are us.


Wrong. The LEADERS have to be us. If you are a herd member, you will get your butt kicked. I do believe they know when one of their long termherd leaves (i.e. we recently had to put one down.)However, I do NOT believe they have feelings like we do at the loss of a friend. 

Emily, again-with all due respect-I am still getting the whole "butterflies and unicorns" feeling from you-and it is leaving me with the impression that you are young, with lots to learn. Sorry, but that is my perception, based on what you write.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> Wrong. The LEADERS have to be us. If you are a herd member, you will get your butt kicked. I do believe they know when one of their long termherd leaves (i.e. we recently had to put one down.)However, I do NOT believe they have feelings like we do at the loss of a friend.
> 
> Emily, again-with all due respect-I am still getting the whole "butterflies and unicorns" feeling from you-and it is leaving me with the impression that you are young, with lots to learn. Sorry, but that is my perception, based on what you write.


Okay just because you say with all due respect, it does not make it okay. I disagree with all of this. I honestly do. A horse is not a 4 legged machine meant to be a slave to humans. I don't "frolic in the field with my horses" or whatever you said, but my horses respect me and I respect them. It is a two way relationship. It is how I feel on it and nobody is going to change it. Your perception of me is wrong and if you honestly knew me, then you would know that. The one and only thing I agree with is that we have to be the leaders which is what I have been saying. There is a leader in every herd, but none of us will ever agree on this because my views just won't change. I will always believe horses have feelings and that they deserve the same kindness and respect that humans (attempt) to give each other.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> All I can say EmilyRosie is do not ever buy a cutting or reining bred QH. You will not be happy and the horse will really not be happy. They need a job and they love to work. Mine will find something to do if I do not give them something to do and at the end of the day it makes a lot more for me to do when they have nothing to do as they went out and found something to do. See it is a never ending problem when a working horse gets board.


Well nrhareiner, no worries there because I wouldn't practice cutting or reining. I give my horses "jobs" _sometimes_, once their is a relationship built there. I think groundwork should be done before you hop on etc. What I disagree with is your blanket statement "horses are here to work" No. Every horse is different and EVERY SINGLE HORSE needs to be trained/treated differently. This is why I find this topic extremely frustrating.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

Jolly Badger said:


> This isn't some kind of My Little Pony meets Bob Ross in a round pen thing.
> 
> This is reality. They are horses.
> 
> They respond based on instinct, temperament, and training - not human "feelings."


Well I don't agree. I think horses feel things too so this is a topic that we would never agree on. Its the core basis of belief of why horses are on the planet that we differ on.


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## christabelle (Feb 13, 2011)

I don't know too much about PP. from the sounds of it, I would not agree with him too much. I DO think it is presumptuous to think that you know what a horse does or does not feel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Susan Crumrine (Oct 5, 2009)

Parrelli or not?


NOT


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

EmilyRosie said:


> Okay just because you say with all due respect, it does not make it okay. I disagree with all of this. I honestly do. A horse is not a 4 legged machine meant to be a slave to humans. I don't "frolic in the field with my horses" or whatever you said, but my horses respect me and I respect them. It is a two way relationship. It is how I feel on it and nobody is going to change it. Your perception of me is wrong and if you honestly knew me, then you would know that. The one and only thing I agree with is that we have to be the leaders which is what I have been saying. There is a leader in every herd, but none of us will ever agree on this because my views just won't change. I will always believe horses have feelings and that they deserve the same kindness and respect that humans (attempt) to give each other.


You are right about one thing. I don't know you. All I have to go on is what you are writing, and that is what I am getting from what YOU are saying. Period. A bit too "fluffy" for my taste, simply put. 

No, we will never agree on that, and too bad you will "never try cutting or reining"-you may miss out on some fun, and so may your horse. Mine LOVES it!

Horses do deserve good treatment, but the same as a human? Not really. I don't treat mine the same as my kids, altho sometimes I think they were brought up in a barn.:wink:


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Now I know there are Parrellli fans out there. From my experience with some that I've met (but not all) I'm amazed that there aren't some on here shouting praises and telling people to sign up )


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I do not think anyone here is saying horses are machines. Well maybe PP as his system is a one size fits all type aproch. If that is not treating something like a machine I am not sure what is.

Also if you keep wanting to put human terms to horses then here is what horses are to human. They are not slaves but Bond Slaves. If you do not know the difference look it up. As I do not have the time to explane it right now.

Horses need a job. It is plane and simple. We have taken them in demesticated them bred them to do a specific task. Now we need to give them that task to do. Be it pull a plow or rounding up cattle. These hroses are bred to do those jobs and they love to do it. Just like my Corgi. She is bred to herd things. Since I have nothing for her to herd she herds my Golden. She live to chase and move her around. Most of the time is it the golden retrieving a ball and the corgi chasing the golden retrieving the ball. They are each doing exacly what they where bred to do and love doing it and if you do not do it with them they get ticked and will try for all their worth to get you to play with them. My Golden loves her job. Of which she has meny. Take those away and she is not happy. 

Same with my horses. Te goes bonkers every time a trainer comes on the property or I hook mine up. He use to HATE trailers and I mean HATE. Once he realized that the trailer took him to shows now he can not wait to get in one and go. Why do you think that is? Shows mean work and a lot of it.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

EmilyRosie said:


> Well nrhareiner, no worries there because I wouldn't practice cutting or reining. I give my horses "jobs" _sometimes_, once their is a relationship built there. I think groundwork should be done before you hop on etc. *What I disagree with is your blanket statement "horses are here to work"* No. Every horse is different and EVERY SINGLE HORSE needs to be trained/treated differently. This is why I find this topic extremely frustrating.


Got to ask....what do YOU think horses are here for then? All horses have a "job" of some sort and a "job" is related to work. I think you are hung up on a simple word....work. FCS, in wild herds....every horse has a "job".


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

I think EmilyRosia got stuck on the word "work". In all honestly if you want to compare them to humans lets use "work" in humans. I mean everyone has a job, some people hate their jobs, BUT a job is a necessity in order to make a living. I don't think the horses hate their jobs though. It is a way to get out of the hum drum, to move their bodies and stimulate their minds. Although horses like down time they look forward I think to having fun experiences too, just like you and I would. Noone can sit around their house and do nothing all day it makes you go bonkers. A horses body is a mass of muscles...those muscles need to MOVE...when those muscles don't move they create ways to expend the energy...like weaving, cribbing, pacing, & pawing which are all bad habits for them. By taking your horse out and using them to cut cows, or practice jumps, or ride trails, or working on reigning, or practice barrels I don't even think they look at it like "work" maybe a better term is structured excercise???? It is fun for them...and they do enjoy it. They were designed for the jobs they do...its not like we ask them to do things above and beyond what they can do. And something you should keep in mind is, at least for me and I am sure any other responsible horseman/horsewoman we take great care in preventing our horses from being OVERWORKED a horse that pulls a tendon or suffers an injury takes them out of the season for a year sometimes and sometimes even longer. Thats why we are out there working so hard hun, if we work them to the point they get hurt by it or work them unsafely it costs us a lot of time & money. It isn't a bad thing at all. And like I said earlier...everyone has to work to stay alive...I do...you do...and so does my horse...she has to earn her keep and her retirement. Thats just life and its a well balanced life. Without this much needed excercise horses bodies deteriorate just like a humans...work keeps them fit & healthy and they will live longer too.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

Thought this was funny


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> Well I don't agree. I think horses feel things too so this is a topic that we would never agree on. Its the core basis of belief of why horses are on the planet that we differ on.


Horses are on this planet because their ancestors survived, evolved, and survived some more. Then some humans decided that horses could be useful beyond just being a source of food, and eventually began domesticating them and breeding them to do "work" of one kind or another. 

The horses we have in our stalls and pastures today, whether they are pasture puffs, trail horses, working ranch horses, or highly-schooled show horses, simply would not exist at all if there hadn't been a "use" for them.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

herdbound said:


> Thought this was funny


 
He is just a missunderstood horse. Lets put him in the round pen and get him back to being happy. LOL


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> He is just a missunderstood horse. Lets put him in the round pen and get him back to being happy. LOL


Oh, I dunno. . .that could be every horse's "dream job!"

You only have to "work" for 8 seconds, once a week. . .:lol:


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Oh I agree. I think the horse is loving his job but PP would say he is just a missunderstood horse. He needs to be round pened some more and he will stop that.

This is just one more example of a horse who is bred to do a job.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> You are right about one thing. I don't know you. All I have to go on is what you are writing, and that is what I am getting from what YOU are saying. Period. A bit too "fluffy" for my taste, simply put.
> 
> No, we will never agree on that, and too bad you will "never try cutting or reining"-you may miss out on some fun, and so may your horse. Mine LOVES it!
> 
> Horses do deserve good treatment, but the same as a human? Not really. I don't treat mine the same as my kids, altho sometimes I think they were brought up in a barn.:wink:


I'm not trying to change anybody's opinion. Just hearing both sides. Before I got horses I went to lots of different barns and tried to see everything objectively and I came out of it (After lots of thinking about it) with the beliefs that I have of why horses are on the planet and how they should be treated. I have no doubt you did the same which is why, no I think we are both right haha we just won't agree on this, any of us. The important thing at the end of the day is that no horses are head shy and destroyed or in pain and that isn't going to happen with anybody on this forum.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

GotaDunQH said:


> Got to ask....what do YOU think horses are here for then? All horses have a "job" of some sort and a "job" is related to work. I think you are hung up on a simple word....work. FCS, in wild herds....every horse has a "job".


I think that horses were never meant to be brought in and domesticated by humans, but now we do the best we can to make their life as natural as possible. Since I believe that horses should be treated no lesser than an other being..I think that involves a two way agreement, if you will, they have people or a person who makes them feel safe and loved and cared for along with (usually) staying with other horses when they aren't with their "human". Honestly it depends on what you consider their "jobs" to be to me. If you consider a job to be going on a trail ride or round penning to see how the horse feels etc. Then yeah haha my horses have jobs pretty much everyday, but I just feel like that is not what was meant at all which is why it frustrates me. 

I think horses are incredible and can feel what mood a person is in and can gain some of that. Like you know when you are loping or cantering (whichever you do) and you go to slow down, but your horse is still so excited because you are just like wow that 5 second lope was awesome on this horrible day (or something). That would obviously be human error, but still the horse would have fed off that energy "Oh she is still lets go! So I want to go!"


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> I do not think anyone here is saying horses are machines. Well maybe PP as his system is a one size fits all type aproch. If that is not treating something like a machine I am not sure what is.
> 
> Also if you keep wanting to put human terms to horses then here is what horses are to human. They are not slaves but Bond Slaves. If you do not know the difference look it up. As I do not have the time to explane it right now.
> 
> ...


Are you honestly saying here that if a horse willingly gets in a trailer its because it knows where its going and wants to get to work? I just need to clarify this.


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

He looks Left brained extravert.:lol: or is it right brained introvert ?Whatever the heck that means. I tried watching on of his videos and he started spewing that kind of crap and I was done. I'm not a big fan of PP for the same reasons others have mentioned. i try to watch alot of different stuff to get more tools in my tool box. Some i may adopt, some i may never use and some I see as total crap and completely forgoet I ever saw it. 

As for why horses are here on this earth( to work or not to work) I don't think anyone can truely answer. That is like asking the age old question , Why am I here? Only god knows the true answer. that being said since the evolution or creation of the horse they have been domesticated and trained to do a funtion of helping us. A beast of burden if you will. If that is what you have been bred and trained to do for generations that is what makes one happy. if you don't believe that get on a 3 yr old horse with cow horse blood lines that has never laid an eye on a cow. Ride him into the pasture and hold on and see what happens. he will start pushing that cow almost everytime and never having done it. I had mine do it with me on his 2nd ride out of the arena. i was totally impressed how well he did. Now they were my neighbors cow so we didn't do it long. It may have turned into a wreck in 30 more seconds.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> Are you honestly saying here that if a horse willingly gets in a trailer its because it knows where its going and wants to get to work? I just need to clarify this.


 
That is exactly what I am saying. Te hated trailers big time. He had been abused when he was a youngster and you could not get him in a trainer to save your or his life. When I moved I had no choice he had to get in one so I worked with him and did get him in. When I got up here I started to do differnt things like Roping and other shows then got into reining. Te loves reining and ropeing and cow work. Hauled him to a few shows and after that I had and have no problems getting him into the trainer here at the house to go anywhere. However leaving the show grounds? That was a different story. He wanted to stay and keep doing what he loves.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> I think that horses were never meant to be brought in and domesticated by humans, but now we do the best we can to make their life as natural as possible. Since I believe that horses should be treated no lesser than an other being..I think that involves a two way agreement, if you will, they have people or a person who makes them feel safe and loved and cared for along with (usually) staying with other horses when they aren't with their "human". Honestly it depends on what you consider their "jobs" to be to me. If you consider a job to be going on a trail ride or round penning to see how the horse feels etc. Then yeah haha my horses have jobs pretty much everyday, but I just feel like that is not what was meant at all which is why it frustrates me.
> 
> I think horses are incredible and can feel what mood a person is in and can gain some of that. Like you know when you are loping or cantering (whichever you do) and you go to slow down, but your horse is still so excited because you are just like wow that 5 second lope was awesome on this horrible day (or something). That would obviously be human error, but still the horse would have fed off that energy "Oh she is still lets go! So I want to go!"


How do you think the US was settled? How do you think cattle got to market 150 years ago? Farms plowed and planted? How do you think people got to town back then?


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## 2muchcoffeeman (May 29, 2011)

COWCHICK77 said:


> I have to add this because I thought it was funny....
> 
> There is an article in Western Horseman about the "Horseman's Reunion" at the Madonna Inn in April, a bunch of big names the Neubert boys, Frank Dominguez, Martin Black and such are attending.
> My husband was reading that and came to Pat Parelli's name and says-
> ...


Y'all hoist one in Mr. Cowchick's honor tonight, wouldja? :rofl:



its lbs not miles said:


> Now I know there are Parrellli fans out there. From my experience with some that I've met (but not all) I'm amazed that there aren't some on here shouting praises and telling people to sign up )


They never come here. They're all on Parelli Connect telling each other how great Pat and Linda are.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

I thought of EmilyRosia today and I wanted to share my experience with her so hopefully she takes time to read this. This afternoon I started lunging the mare called Star that is here. Well my mare seeing I was working this mare and not her comes over and starts lunging herself WITH star. She was just walking, trotting, and loping right alongside and behind her...it was fun for her or she must have got some enjoyment out of it...because there was nothing MAKING her do it. In fact, if it's possible, I think she was jealous I was working with the other horse. 

We do NOT invest all of the time, $$$$, and effort into our animals to hurt them by overworking them or working them incorrectly. I just think you have this picture in your head of us beating, whipping, and kicking the crap out of our horses and running them into the dirt day in and day out. I know most people have a pretty strict conditioning process...at least I do. I know what my horse is physically capable of...Im not going to hurt her by getting her out and excercised...LACK of work will get a horse hurt quicker than keeping them conditioned.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

EmilyRosie said:


> I'm not trying to change anybody's opinion. Just hearing both sides. Before I got horses I went to lots of different barns and tried to see everything objectively and I came out of it (After lots of thinking about it) with the beliefs that I have of why horses are on the planet and how they should be treated. I have no doubt you did the same which is why, no I think we are both right haha we just won't agree on this, any of us. *The important thing at the end of the day is that no horses are head shy and destroyed or in pain and that isn't going to happen with anybody on this forum.*





What?? I have NO idea where this came from nor where it is trying to go.

I have been at MANY barns throughout my 40+ yrs with horses, and continue to grow and learn. THe more I learn, the more I realize that they need purpose, and no, we will never agree. I think I have a few years on you. Keep learning.:wink:


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

EmilyRosie said:


> Are you honestly saying here that if a horse willingly gets in a trailer its because it knows where its going and wants to get to work? I just need to clarify this.


Do you not think that is possible? Mine self load also, and look forward to going somewhere. And-step off like they have lived there before and ready to get to work.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> Do you not think that is possible? Mine self load also, and look forward to going somewhere. And-step off like they have lived there before and ready to get to work.


EmilyRosia if you took your dog to the dog park once a week and played ball with him, threw frisbees, and "played" with him don't you think he would jump up in the car with ya when he knew he was going to the park?

When my horse gets to the shows she gets all kinds of special attention and you know what she LIKES to strut her stuff. Honestly they get to socialize, they get to have fun...it's like a day at the park for a dog. I know horses that when it comes to certain stuff they LLLLOOOOVVVEEEE it. Here is a video of a horse running poles by itself...if it didn't want to do it...I don't think it would. BTW I LOVE this video...I would LOVE to own this horse!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

My dun it mares knows when it is time to go to work. She loves it. When you clime in with your hat on she knows it is time to go to work and you can see her demeaner change. It is like she is goofing off and playing then she shifts into work mind set and goes to work and you can tell she loves it.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

herdbound said:


> Thought this was funny


Priceless
Laughed till I cried. There's a place I could but that poster, but I won't because I don't want to offend a couple of people and they'd certainly be offended.
Still, it's a great picture. I may have to print out a poster size and hang it in my hay shed. Should discourage some folks from telling me to try this or that from PP :lol:


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

My sister is buying a mare from some people. She is 6 years old, can't even walk her on a lead rope. The seller comes in the barn and starts this "yo-yo" game with her. She will go in reverse really well almost too well. Everytime you walk towards her face she flies backwards. Next he starts stroking the rope and calling her forward after about a full 5 minutes of stroking the rope she reluctantly meandors forward. He breaks out in a fit of praise....oh good girl goooood girl. Then he sends her flying backwards and again strokes the rope begging for her to come forward. I don't beg horses to do stuff. He had originally asked me down to work with her and break her thats how my sister found the horse. I try to simply lead her like I would expect any horse to be lead...I get by the shoulder and step off she won't budge. In fact she plants her **** into the ground and just refuses to move. I try again and see that just doesn't happen with my personal horses. I don't ask twice. He suggests I try this yo-yo thing with her....naaaaaa. He had called me down there to train and break this horse...thats how my sister found it thru me. I looked at him and said IF you want me to work with this horse I'm gonna tell you one thing. I have already picked out a nice switch on the hillside behind my sister there. I would pick that switch and when I walk off and she doesn't move she would get that switch to the behind to motivate her to move forward. I don't play this coax them into listening. I find the KEY to a successful relationship where the horse is BEGGING you for acceptance instead of you BEGGING it for obedience...is respect. There isn't any respect in PP's games.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

herdbound said:


> There isn't any respect in PP's games.


what ?

whether or not a horse respects you has to do with how you do the games [if you do them], dont you think ? the parelli 7 games can help you gain respect, as can any handling or lunging, if you do it right. i wouldnt say there isnt any respect in the 7 games.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Gypsy-there are many other ways to get respect. I do find many of the games sort of like begging. Shoot, when I was at a PP barn last winter, the trainer kept treats in his shirt pocket.....I can get my horse to do ANYTHING if I promise him a treat! That is only bribery, and that is pretty **** easy. Then I told him not too, since my horse was getting mouthy. He didn't know what to do! Honestly. and he was a 2* PP instructor!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

gypsygirl said:


> what ?
> 
> whether or not a horse respects you has to do with how you do the games [if you do them], dont you think ? the parelli 7 games can help you gain respect, as can any handling or lunging, if you do it right. i wouldnt say there isnt any respect in the 7 games.


I would. I have seen and delt with way too many PP trained horses. Will not do it any more. Life is too short to deal with them. When I am looking at adds for horses if there is any mention of PP I read no further. I do not care who nice the horse. What I see when I read that is RUN RUN FARE AND AS FAST AS YOU CAN.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

I am a big fan of getting join up in a round pen. I think these "games" are creative ways to spend time with your horse and maybe if you got join-up first then played the games the horse would have some respect...but I am into join up before ANYTHING else. That is my ground zero. The games alone...no not from my standpoint. I don't know if you even know what I am talking about unless you do join-up with your horses. I like to have my horses nose about glued to my behind in "submissive respect" before I do anything else...and if you got good join-up I don't even know what the sense of the games are.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> Gypsy-there are many other ways to get respect. I do find many of the games sort of like begging. Shoot, when I was at a PP barn last winter, the trainer kept treats in his shirt pocket.....I can get my horse to do ANYTHING if I promise him a treat! That is only bribery, and that is pretty **** easy. Then I told him not too, since my horse was getting mouthy. He didn't know what to do! Honestly. and he was a 2* PP instructor!


Yeah I watched this guy BEG the horse to do what he wanted. I do not beg a horse to listen to me. That system goes basicly against everything I personally believe about horses. As I said earlier he gets you to spend time with your horse...but thats bout it.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

i have done join-up. i have also done the 7 games with my horse. just because a lot of parelli followers are idiots, doesnt mean the games dont have a good foundation. they are very similar to a lot of things that CA does [if you have watched him] to get respect and control on the ground. 

frank- its only begging if you beg !


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I spend enough time with my horses I do not need to **** them off to spend even more time with them. That is about what would happen if I played these games with any of them.

Heck just spend a bit of time brushing the horse. You will get the same end results.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

gypsygirl said:


> i have done join-up. i have also done the 7 games with my horse. just because a lot of parelli followers are idiots, doesnt mean the games dont have a good foundation. they are very similar to a lot of things that CA does [if you have watched him] to get respect and control on the ground.
> 
> frank- its only begging if you beg !


Oh believe me, I don't! 

Especially the way he acted today.:wink:


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

gypsygirl said:


> i have done join-up. i have also done the 7 games with my horse. just because a lot of parelli followers are idiots, doesnt mean the games dont have a good foundation. they are very similar to a lot of things that CA does [if you have watched him] to get respect and control on the ground.
> 
> frank- its only begging if you beg !


 
Why is you think you need to spend so much time on the ground with the horse? Past the first bit with a green horse once you get in the saddle ground work in not even needed or something that I do. Spend enough time with ground work to give the horse a good foundation then move on.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

From what I witnessed the other day looked to me like the horse was "tolerating" the guy. I don't wont a horse to "tolerate" me. I want it to worship the ground I walk on as it's Supreme Leader  When the guy tried to lead the mare around the normal way she took a couple steps and stopped when he pushed her to move a little bit she shot up in a semi rear and whipped passed him and swung around acting like a total brat...head swinging all around. Naaaaaa. I may add he has a few other horses he practices this stuff with and one bout broke his back 5 years ago cause it acts like an idiot too.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

nrha - who said i did ?

herdbound - clearly that guy is an idiot !


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Why is you think you need to spend so much time on the ground with the horse? Past the first bit with a green horse once you get in the saddle ground work in not even needed or something that I do. Spend enough time with ground work to give the horse a good foundation then move on.


I believe that whole heartedly. How I break a horse is as follows. Get join up FIRST...then free lunge...then comes lunge line and ground manners like leading, loading, & tying...then up I go...once I am on a horse and get it to walk, trot, and lope and it learns to go left, right & whoa...it goes out on trails and it is finished out on trails. At first with other horses but as soon as I feel it has the basics down it goes off alone. After it is working like that...I do lunge to warm up or exercise on days I don't have time to ride. You can throw in what ever bells and whistles you want as you are doing the breaking like neck reining but once I am on...most of the time thats where the horse is learning from...the saddle.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

The whole "join up" thing-I really don't get it. Why can't I be getting to know my horse when I am grooming, tacking, etc. Why do I have to do some formal activity called "join up"? Eww.. Guess it is the name of it or something... makes my skin crawl, and to me just has a bad connotation. Plus, after trying to "bond" with one of my horses in a round pen loose, without a lead-I will NEVER , EVER do that again. For no reason, he started running. Faster and faster...and there is no more helpless feeling in the world. I literally just stood there. He ran and ran and eventually jumped out, getting tangled in the gate. Thankfully, he was fine. But you can bet I never do that any more. THey are on a long line so I have some control. It was all because they had started feeding in the barn.:shock:


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I agree the join up is crap. I get that just dealing with the horse as normal. Feeding grooming and such. I breed for most of my prospects so they know how to lead by the time they are a few weeks old and by the time they are weaned they tie pick up their feed are groomed bathed feed done take dewormers and if it is a colt they learn to get their sheath cleaned. SO basically everything you would expect to be able to do on the ground for that age.

When they hit 2 they learn to be saddled which is not hard as they have at some point had winter blankets on and such. Then they have some ground work done once they seem comfortable with the saddle bit and such. Then in the saddle we go. At this point is when a lot of the basics are put on the horse. They do not leave the walk trot for the first few months and if they do they are allowed to lope for few strides then back to the walk and trot. They learn to give every inch of their body at the walk and then at the trot. They learn to rate and follow their nose and so on. So by the time you start loping them they have a very very good basics and the lope is easy. Once they are started in the saddle there is no lunging done. I have horses who have not been lunged since they where 2yo.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> Plus, after trying to "bond" with one of my horses in a round pen loose, without a lead-I will NEVER , EVER do that again. For no reason, he started running. Faster and faster...and there is no more helpless feeling in the world. I literally just stood there. He ran and ran and eventually jumped out, getting tangled in the gate.


Did he look like this  This mare was extremely nasty she broke a ladies arm cause she ran her over in the barn. She had NO respect for human beings what so ever. This mare is 6 years old, unbroke, ill mannered, and just a lil witch. Took me about an hour of doing join up...which may not be for everyone...if you notice this round pen is EXTREMELY flimsy...but you learn how to move them and control them even if you don't have a lunge line on the horse to keep it from doing something harmful to itself. This is not my round pen and I would suggest having one with higher sides if you do join up...but I used this one on several horses and never had one jump out on me. Anyways this gal charged me a few times, kept up the work, eventually she decided to join up and the same day I was on her...then she was done. Once someone knocked her off her high horse so to speak, which join up does, there was a new understanding a human CAN move me a lot more than I once thought. I have such great join up with my own mare I don't need a halter/lead rope to lead her around. I can make her run and jump obstacles with me and ect...just cause I have that "mental lead" on her. It may not be for everyone...but I love it...and it does produce respect.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

No, actually, mine was a broke horse, no tack on it. round pen was a regular pipe panel round pen. Not flimsy at all. How would you suggest "making a horse move" when they are galloping full out around and around? Step in front of them? Not likely. I was putting no pressure on the horse, stood relaxed (as relaxed as I could-dropped the whip). Once he jumped out, he literally put his head down and grazed. I waled over, put a lead on him, and began hosing how abraded legs. Eventually I stopped shaking.
Agree. Join up is not for everyone, and it is certainly not for me. That does not mean my horses respect me any less.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> No, actually, mine was a broke horse, no tack on it. round pen was a regular pipe panel round pen. Not flimsy at all. How would you suggest "making a horse move" when they are galloping full out around and around? Step in front of them? Not likely. I was putting no pressure on the horse, stood relaxed (as relaxed as I could-dropped the whip). Once he jumped out, he literally put his head down and grazed. I waled over, put a lead on him, and began hosing how abraded legs. Eventually I stopped shaking.
> Agree. Join up is not for everyone, and it is certainly not for me. That does not mean my horses respect me any less.


Oh FrankNBeans I am not saying that they respect you any less...at all. You can get it different ways this is just my preferred way  And honestly if you don't feel comfortable with it then you shouldn't do it. It is something you need to feel very comfortable with because you are going to push certain buttons in the horse that can trigger some pretty nasty situations. They can charge you, they can come flying backwards at you with both guns blazing, ect...as far as how to stop one who is running madly in circles you aren't going to be able to stop the energy BUT you can learn how to move it, turn it, and tone it down by keeping the horses mind on you...keeping it busy.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I hate the term "join up"... basically what it should be is "pay attention, I am your leader". I do this with colts when I start them, if you do it right, you can get a lot done in a short amount of time. Believe it or not I learned it from a top notch reined cow horse trainer and not a super secret club video of a clinician. You don't have to do it constantly, I do it the first couple of times when starting a colt and go about my merry way....not much on the ground work bullsh*t for weeks before I step on...the ground manners come along with the rest. If you establish leadership from the very beginning, the rest is pretty simple. You don't have to beg and bribe your way through it...lol....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

Hope I'm not overstepping my bounds here, but I hardly think FnB chooses not to do join up because she is 'uncomfortable' with it, but because it has little value to her as a training or bonding technique. -
Herdbound, it may have been unintentional, but your last post sounded so much that you were talking to a newbie, which Franknbeans is def Not, that even I took offense.-
As for you, Franknbeans, shame on you for changing your avatar without advance notice to me.. threw me off there for a bit!


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

Skipsfirstspike said:


> Hope I'm not overstepping my bounds here, but I hardly think FnB chooses not to do join up because she is 'uncomfortable' with it, but because it has little value to her as a training or bonding technique. -
> Herdbound, it may have been unintentional, but your last post sounded so much that you were talking to a newbie, which Franknbeans is def Not, that even I took offense.-
> As for you, Franknbeans, shame on you for changing your avatar without advance notice to me.. threw me off there for a bit!


I don't know what I said to be offensive but it was NOT my intention. FranknBeans asked what you do when the horse is running wildly around and I answered. Sorry if that offended anyone...


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Skipsfirstspike said:


> Hope I'm not overstepping my bounds here, but I hardly think FnB chooses not to do join up because she is 'uncomfortable' with it, but because it has little value to her as a training or bonding technique. -
> Herdbound, it may have been unintentional, but your last post sounded so much that you were talking to a newbie, which Franknbeans is def Not, that even I took offense.-
> As for you, Franknbeans, shame on you for changing your avatar without advance notice to me.. threw me off there for a bit!


Haha-I decided I was ready to go forward, not reverse any more. lol

I actually will occasionally use an exercise with a horse in an indoor, which is, of course safer, at least in my case. If they are not paying attention, I let them loose and MAKE them run. Now, in an indoor, that is much more work for me than them......but, they have to run until I say stop. and when they stop, they had better have their eyes on me. If they stop any other way-they get to run again. Once they are paying attention, I put the line back on, and we continue.

Like NRHA said tho, once they are trained, I rarely use that. In fact, I have not down it with my guy in over a year now. I used it mostly when I was helping a trainer last year. If I am away a long time, etc, I may do it just to see where we are.......

I do free school my old guy in the round pen just to exercise him, but other than that-not so much.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

herdbound said:


> I have such great join up with my own mare I don't need a halter/lead rope to lead her around.


To me this is nothing. I can and do this with a stallion. I can lead him without a lead at all he will stop back turn both directions depending on what I am doing. I lead him in and out of the barn past mares with just a lead rope around his neck. This is nothing more then good training. It is not some magical bond or anything more then training.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

^^ I can do that with any horse. (just need a bunch of treats in a pocket!) Bwahahaha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

usandpets said:


> ^^ I can do that with any horse. (just need a bunch of treats in a pocket!) Bwahahaha
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
No treats needed. Although I am sure Te would not mind a treat now and then he did not have to work for. Only time my horses get treats are when they can get them out of the milk jug hanging in their stall.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Not to rekindle the argument but just wanted to share. Today we went riding. I had to turn away two of our horses from the gate when we took the ones we were riding out. They know we are going riding and want to go. This happens most of the time. I can't say they "love" to go riding but that just shows me that they don't mind but do like to do their "job" we ask of them
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> To me this is nothing. I can and do this with a stallion. I can lead him without a lead at all he will stop back turn both directions depending on what I am doing. I lead him in and out of the barn past mares with just a lead rope around his neck. This is nothing more then good training. It is not some magical bond or anything more then training.


I never said it was a magical bond...it's a _natural_ bond. For my mare I got it through doing join up. I have her run an obstacle course with me...running through cones and jumping over obstacles. I switch speeds and her legs and directions if I walk backwards she does. I think its great that you can do it too...I know how I achieved mine. It was through join-up...It is done without treats by the way...well I guess I treat her at the end of a good session by scratching her itchy spots she can't seem to reach...and for some reason she loves me to rub her eyeballs for her...but thats it. I never have been a fan of food rewards. Sometimes I will cut up carrots and apples and add them on top of their grain...but nothing really as a reward for behavior. With horses and training we all have our own preferences and styles as long as it produces a well mannered horse and the techniques are humane as possible I don't care how anyone does it. If you can use PP and your horse responds to it...GREAT! More power to you. I have been doing this in this particle fashion since I can remember...and it has always worked for me. And I guess I have also been pretty fortunate that the animals I have gotten to work with have been receptive to it. My mare is amazing. I truly am blessed with a good horse.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

herdbound said:


> I thought of EmilyRosia today and I wanted to share my experience with her so hopefully she takes time to read this. This afternoon I started lunging the mare called Star that is here. Well my mare seeing I was working this mare and not her comes over and starts lunging herself WITH star. She was just walking, trotting, and loping right alongside and behind her...it was fun for her or she must have got some enjoyment out of it...because there was nothing MAKING her do it. In fact, if it's possible, I think she was jealous I was working with the other horse.
> 
> We do NOT invest all of the time, $$$$, and effort into our animals to hurt them by overworking them or working them incorrectly. I just think you have this picture in your head of us beating, whipping, and kicking the crap out of our horses and running them into the dirt day in and day out. I know most people have a pretty strict conditioning process...at least I do. I know what my horse is physically capable of...Im not going to hurt her by getting her out and excercised...LACK of work will get a horse hurt quicker than keeping them conditioned.


I wasn't just not answering, my email decided not to notify me when somebody posted. Yeah I know, I had a horse that started doing that once too. As I've said a lot before on this thread my problem is with the blanket statement *horses were born to work*. That is what I have the problem with.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

herdbound said:


> Did he look like this  This mare was extremely nasty she broke a ladies arm cause she ran her over in the barn. She had NO respect for human beings what so ever. This mare is 6 years old, unbroke, ill mannered, and just a lil witch. Took me about an hour of doing join up...which may not be for everyone...if you notice this round pen is EXTREMELY flimsy...but you learn how to move them and control them even if you don't have a lunge line on the horse to keep it from doing something harmful to itself. This is not my round pen and I would suggest having one with higher sides if you do join up...but I used this one on several horses and never had one jump out on me. Anyways this gal charged me a few times, kept up the work, eventually she decided to join up and the same day I was on her...then she was done. Once someone knocked her off her high horse so to speak, which join up does, there was a new understanding a human CAN move me a lot more than I once thought. I have such great join up with my own mare I don't need a halter/lead rope to lead her around. I can make her run and jump obstacles with me and ect...just cause I have that "mental lead" on her. It may not be for everyone...but I love it...and it does produce respect.


So because a horse injured somebody you just automatically believe it is because its a "witchy" horse? How about it had a fear of humans or something else was wrong?


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> What?? I have NO idea where this came from nor where it is trying to go.
> ...


Could you get any more condescending?


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

Doesn't it completely and totally depend on the horse whether or not Parelli works? He has helped lots of humans and horses gain a connection so I don't think he should be totally slammed. He helps some, but is not the right fit for others.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

EmilyRosie said:


> Doesn't it completely and totally depend on the horse whether or not Parelli works? He has helped lots of humans and horses gain a connection so I don't think he should be totally slammed. He helps some, but is not the right fit for others.


It's not that nothing he's does or says is ever right or that nothing he promotes ever works. It's his position that his way is the way to go and will always work.

It doesn't always work (certainly not always in a natural way). Horses, like people, don't all learn the same way and don't always respond well to the same method.

But like the rest he's selling a product, so he can't vary well come out an admit (if he's even willing to acknowledge it) that what he's "selling" is not always going to work and that depending on the horse other techniques might be needed or that some other method, not in his program, might actually work better.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

its lbs not miles said:


> It's not that nothing he's does or says is ever right or that nothing he promotes ever works. It's his position that his way is the way to go and will always work.
> 
> It doesn't always work (certainly not always in a natural way). Horses, like people, don't all learn the same way and don't always respond well to the same method.
> 
> But like the rest he's selling a product, so he can't vary well come out an admit (if he's even willing to acknowledge it) that what he's "selling" is not always going to work and that depending on the horse other techniques might be needed or that some other method, not in his program, might actually work better.


Yeah thats what I mean that its not right to say "This will work for every horse on the planet follow these 5 steps" or whatever, but he does help some people and horses so I don't think its fair that he get totally bashed.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Let me quickly remind the players to stay civil, ok?

And let me ask what Emily meant by the word "meant" in her comment. Do you mean not meant for our uses as per the "Creator"? or as per their physical bodies as it has evolved .
Are there any animals that are "meant" to be used?


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

EmilyRosie said:


> You honestly believe it was right and good that horses were rounded up and domesticated?


Mastery over the beasts of this earth is our manifest destiny.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> Let me quickly remind the players to stay civil, ok?
> 
> And let me ask what Emily meant by the word "meant" in her comment. Do you mean not meant for our uses as per the "Creator"? or as per their physical bodies as it has evolved .
> Are there any animals that are "meant" to be used?


Trying to stay civil until the laughing his head off comment. I mean "meant" as in a horses purpose on the planet isn't to serve us.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

mildot said:


> Mastery over the beasts of this earth is our manifest destiny.



Yes, we will never agree on this.


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## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

Well, I guess we could always go back to hunting them for their meat and hides like we used to before we domesticated them...


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> Doesn't it completely and totally depend on the horse whether or not Parelli works? He has helped lots of humans and horses gain a connection so I don't think he should be totally slammed. He helps some, but is not the right fit for others.


i think it really depends on the person whether or not parelli works. the person needs to be able to execute the games correctly [for example]. and they also need to be able to tell how their horse learns and works best.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

Skipsfirstspike said:


> Well, I guess we could always go back to hunting them for their meat and hides like we used to before we domesticated them...


and what about just leaving whats left of wild horses alone? Why do we have to be doing anything to them? Domesticating them or eating them. Why can't we just leave what is left of wild horses alone?


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

gypsygirl said:


> i think it really depends on the person whether or not parelli works. the person needs to be able to execute the games correctly [for example]. and they also need to be able to tell how their horse learns and works best.


Thats a fair comment. I mean I believe there is a certain amount of tweaking a person has to do to any training method to make it the right one for their horse.


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## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

I think there are some wild horses that are protected, although I am not sure. The problem, as with many wild animals, is that their habitat is getting smaller, and the horses are overpopulated. That is why they do culls and mustang roundups.-
I think smrobs and kevinshorses are a bit more knowledgeable on that subject..


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

unfortunately, our reach as a species is so large now that we cannot just leaved animals alone. We either have to manage them or manage ourselves and the envirionment, so that we do not destroy them. Sadly, there is almost no place where the larger animals live without "permission" from humans.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

Skipsfirstspike said:


> I think there are some wild horses that are protected, although I am not sure. The problem, as with many wild animals, is that their habitat is getting smaller, and the horses are overpopulated. That is why they do culls and mustang roundups.-
> I think smrobs and kevinshorses are a bit more knowledgeable on that subject..


Yeah I struggle to understand and will probably never agree with the wild horse roundups I think its incredibly sad and I wish what is left of the truly wild horses would be let alone.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> unfortunately, our reach as a species is so large now that we cannot just leaved animals alone. We either have to manage them or manage ourselves and the envirionment, so that we do not destroy them. Sadly, there is almost no place where the larger animals live without "permission" from humans.


I understand that but I still think its really sad and unnecessary.


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## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

Well the culls and roundups actually help keep the remaining population healthy. If we were to just leave them alone, they would grow too numerous and then starve. So it is like what tinylily said, we have to manage them.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

Skipsfirstspike said:


> Well the culls and roundups actually help keep the remaining population healthy. If we were to just leave them alone, they would grow too numerous and then starve. So it is like what tinylily said, we have to manage them.


I still don't understand that though. Horses were meant to be wild in the beginning of time right? So how come humans think we HAVE to interfere?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> Trying to stay civil until the laughing his head off comment. I mean "meant" as in a horses purpose on the planet isn't to serve us.


 
Actualy it is. They where created for man to use to govern over and care for. 

I asked this in an earlier post and you never answered so I will ask again.

If the horse was never demesticated then how would man have planted their feilds or plowed them? How would they have gotten from place to place to get what they needed. How would they have rounded up the cattle settled the west? Anything that horses have been used for for thousends of years. 

Also yes horses are "BRED" to work. This is why we track pedigrees and everything ealse we do with them when it comes to breeding. This is how we know that a horse will excel at what we want. They are bred to do it. Some are bred to cut cattle some to be fox hunt mounts some to pull waggens or plows and so on. Like it or not horses are a beast of burden and put here to make life for humans easier.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

gypsygirl said:


> i think it really depends on the person whether or not parelli works. the person needs to be able to execute the games correctly [for example]. and they also need to be able to tell how their horse learns and works best.


I disagree with this. I do not care how well you play the games or how good you are at them. My horses will never like them. It is not in their make up to play games like that. They want to work and have a purpose and those games do not give them that. It would serve to **** them off bit time.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Actualy it is. They where created for man to use to govern over and care for.
> 
> I asked this in an earlier post and you never answered so I will ask again.
> 
> ...


^^^above^^^


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> and what about just leaving whats left of wild horses alone? Why do we have to be doing anything to them? Domesticating them or eating them. Why can't we just leave what is left of wild horses alone?


 
B/C they would starve. Just like if you did not hunt deer there would be too many of them and they would over graze the land and there would be nothing left and then end up starving. 

It would be like me going out and telling the cyots to leave the rabit alone. It is just not going to happen. There would be so many rabits running around it would cause a big problem. Then what would the Cyots eat? out eco sistem is set up with checks and balances. Some of those are human and some are other animals. Take one out of the equation and all goes down hill fast.


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## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

EmilyRose-
That is such a huge question. What you have to first understand is that the modern horse is a product of human engineering.. we bred them to be what they are. Same with dogs. Then you have to consider what you think of as wild. Most people envision a band of horses running free here in North America. But thoses horses were never really 'wild' at all. They were all descendants of the Spanish horses left behind here hundreds of years ago. So they werent wild, but feral. -
There was a horse 'type' of animal here, but it died off in the ice age.
-But do you see why it is so complicated? -
Anyway, I think this was supposed to be about Parelli. Sorry.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> Yeah I struggle to understand and will probably never agree with the wild horse roundups I think its incredibly sad and I wish what is left of the truly wild horses would be let alone.


 
Would you rather they end up starving? That is what would happend if left unchecked.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> I still don't understand that though. Horses were meant to be wild in the beginning of time right? So how come humans think we HAVE to interfere?


Are you a evolutionary or a crationist? If you are a crationist you will know the answer to this. God created the animals and set man over then.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

Had to do it...although many have already seen it


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

Skipsfirstspike said:


> EmilyRose-
> That is such a huge question. What you have to first understand is that the modern horse is a product of human engineering.. we bred them to be what they are. Same with dogs. Then you have to consider what you think of as wild. Most people envision a band of horses running free here in North America. But thoses horses were never really 'wild' at all. They were all descendants of the Spanish horses left behind here hundreds of years ago. So they werent wild, but feral. -
> There was a horse 'type' of animal here, but it died off in the ice age.
> -But do you see why it is so complicated? -
> Anyway, I think this was supposed to be about Parelli. Sorry.


So basically humans screwed everything up in the first place and now are trying to cover up their tracks.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Are you a evolutionary or a crationist? If you are a crationist you will know the answer to this. God created the animals and set man over then.


No, no, no we are supposed to be STEWARDS over the animals. Not beat, use and abuse them.


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## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

EmilyRosie said:


> So basically humans screwed everything up in the first place and now are trying to cover up their tracks.


I would say that as a species, yes, we are extremely destructive and self serving.-
As for screwing up, I don't think we did too badly as far as horses were concerned.-
As for everything else, well, it seemed like a good idea at the time...


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Are you a evolutionary or a crationist? If you are a crationist you will know the answer to this. God created the animals and set man over then.


I am a Christian...and I believe whole-heartedly that He gave man dominion over the animals. With that comes great responsibility to do what is in the best interest of them. Keeping them healthy physically is the KEY to keeping a horse fit mentally and if they have it emotionally. Too much pent up energy is like a spring just waiting to be sprung. If you don't work them TRUST me when I say they are the ones that end up at auction going to slaughter. They loose their training, they develop bad habits to release the stress and energy, and they become harder and harder to handle. A horse that is ridden and worked stays "good" and thus stays "desirable" to man. I think exercising them is as important as feeding them.


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## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

EmilyRosie said:


> No, no, no we are supposed to be STEWARDS over the animals. Not beat, use and abuse them.


 -
You have to be careful about this. There are those out there that believe the very act of riding a horse is abusive.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> B/C they would starve.* Just like if you did not hunt deer there would be too many of them and they would over graze the land and there would be nothing left and then end up starving. *
> 
> It would be like me going out and telling the cyots to leave the rabit alone. It is just not going to happen. There would be so many rabits running around it would cause a big problem. Then what would the Cyots eat? out eco sistem is set up with checks and balances. Some of those are human and some are other animals. Take one out of the equation and all goes down hill fast.


 
Only because we have nearly erased the predators that kept them in check, and changed the nature of the forests, creating many more open "meadow" like areas, which deer thrive in. 
We have to intervene because we have intervened. Our balance with other species is out of whack, and we are trying to create a "new" balance. Let's hope we can.

Also, I do not believe that animal were created "for" us. I guess I am NOT a creationist. I believe the smarter or stronger animal always "uses" the less smart/strong. There was a time when WE were prey for other animals.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> No, no, no we are supposed to be STEWARDS over the animals. Not beat, use and abuse them.


Not sure where you get beat and abuse them. I do neither nor does anyone I know. I and everyone I know use the horses. That is what they are for.

Yes we are stewards over the animals to care for them to use them as needed.

Let me ask you this. Do you eat eggs? How about pork chicken steak hot dogs any type of meat? How about Milk? Do you have a horse? If so do you ride that horse? If so how are you any different then anyone?

What I do with my horses they are bred to do and they LOVE it. If they could not do it they would not be happy AT ALL. They are that way b/c the are bred to do that work and have been for years. Someone saw samething in a horse and desided to use that horse and then breed it. They discovered that horses breed true to certain traits. This is why we track the pedigrees of horses.

I do what I do with my horses b/c I love doing it as much as they do. I breed for the discipline I do for just that reason so my horses have the ability and desire to do what I want them to do. If they did not love what they did they would not do it. You can not force any animal to do anything it does not wish to do.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

EmilyRosia I love you to death girl and you remind me of any little girl who first falls in love with horses. I see you have no horses listed though in your profile. This forum is a great place to learn what horses REALLY are like. I think everyone has tried to explain this in a way you understand. PLEASE understand we spend a lot of money on our horses, we spend a lot of time training them, we spend a lot of energy in caring for them...we are NOT going to overwork them...or hurt them by driving them into the ground. A labrador likes to jump in the water and retrieve sticks. A cutting horse LOVES to cut cows...it is BRED into them. It is like a natural instinct to do it...I don't know if it is just a lack of knowledge in general about horses that has you so hung up on them having a job to do and the fact that they like having a job. In fact they NEED a job to stay sane.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Not sure where you get beat and abuse them. I do neither nor does anyone I know. I and everyone I know use the horses. That is what they are for.*Horses are not there to be used. Horses are emotionally spectacular animals and you certainly don't see it.*
> 
> Yes we are stewards over the animals to care for them to use them as needed.
> 
> ...


^^^^^^^


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

EmilyRosie said:


> I still don't understand that though. Horses were meant to be wild in the beginning of time right? So how come humans think we HAVE to interfere?


What does any of this have to do with the thread? Open another thread for this.

But to try and explain....
Man was wild in the beginning of time too. So does that mean we should go back to being hairy, naked, gathering food from whatever source we can find in the wild. Sleeping in trees or caves in hopes of avoiding being killed and eaten by another animal?

Domestication was part of the evolution of many creatures. Man included....we found a better way to live and that way included domesting other animals. The animals that ended up being domesticated were creatures that were in some way suitable for domestication. You will note that some animals that have existed with humans for as long as horses have never been successfully domesticated. Although they have certainly been kept in captivity by humans, they've never been able to make the change to being domesticated. So the horse, dog, pig, goat, sheep, chicken etc.... were animals that were domesticatable. Probably because they had already been hanging out near humans and found the relationship had some benefit for them. I'm sure the horses that made the first move into being domesticated were probably content with the fact that we weren't hunting them as food, which was what man started out doing. In fact, the first domestic horses may well have been kept and raised for food, until we found another use for them. We still eat them today (if you get out of the US). Horse being the healthiest of the domestic red meats. Followed closely by goat.

So when you think the current state of the horse (or any domestic animal) is unnatural, then you may as well consider the state of humans to be unnatural, since all the societies that have ever existed have done so because of some domestic animal(s).

If you return horses to the wild YOU are interfering with thousands of years of domestication. The time to "not interfere" came and went a LONG time ago. But why just horses. Man has domesticated many animals. We had the right because we could and it served a purpose in helping man better survive and evolve. If the horse had been one of those animals that was too difficult to domesticate it would be something we hunted today, and likely many societies would not have existed.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

herdbound said:


> EmilyRosia I love you to death girl and you remind me of any little girl who first falls in love with horses. I see you have no horses listed though in your profile. This forum is a great place to learn what horses REALLY are like. I think everyone has tried to explain this in a way you understand. PLEASE understand we spend a lot of money on our horses, we spend a lot of time training them, we spend a lot of energy in caring for them...we are NOT going to overwork them...or hurt them by driving them into the ground. A labrador likes to jump in the water and retrieve sticks. A cutting horse LOVES to cut cows...it is BRED into them. It is like a natural instinct to do it...I don't know if it is just a lack of knowledge in general about horses that has you so hung up on them having a job to do and the fact that they like having a job. In fact they NEED a job to stay sane.


Just because I don't have horses listed in my profile doesn't mean I don't have any. Haha. I never said you were working your horses into the ground. I have said a thousand times that my problem is the blanket statement that horses are here to be used by humans.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

_Actualy it is. They where created for man to use to govern over and care for. _

_I asked this in an earlier post and you never answered so I will ask again._

_If the horse was never demesticated then how would man have planted their feilds or plowed them? How would they have gotten from place to place to get what they needed. How would they have rounded up the cattle settled the west? Anything that horses have been used for for thousends of years.*Maybe they would have had to find a way to do it without horses working for them? :O *_

*Really how long do you think it would take to plow a feild with out a horse back in the old days? How long to walk from one end of this country to the other? Please do tell. I would love to save the gas.*

_Also yes horses are "BRED" to work. This is why we track pedigrees and everything ealse we do with them when it comes to breeding. This is how we know that a horse will excel at what we want. They are bred to do it. *This is NOT how I am with horses at all. I think its messed up. I guess for you it is about things that YOU need to achieve or about the ribbons. Yes I like the money that my horses win. They pay their way. What about the horse? What about making their life a good one? Good? I would love to have their life. They get the best feed best hay and name if they need it they get it. Then they get to go out and do something they love to do. Yep I would love to have work like that.  Humans get very ME, ME, ME. What about the horse?! The horse couldn't care less about a ribbon.* *No my horses do not care about the ribbons. They only care about having fun and since they run to me and put their heads on their halter when I go out to a very very large pasture to get them I would say they are doing it b/c they want to. If not I would not be able to catch them.* Some are bred to cut cattle some to be fox hunt mounts some to pull waggens or plows and so on. *I disagree with this.* *Why? You do not believe in tracking pedigrees? Why not? There is so much a pedigree can tell you about a horse. Not doing it would be very bad for the horse.* Like it or not horses are a beast of burden and put here to make life for humans easier._


EmilyRosie

Again yes horses are here to be used. Just like my Golden is here to be used or my Corgi. Have you ever seen a Golden who has never seen water and what they do when they get a chance to go for a swim? Have you ever tossed a ball and see what they do? They retrieve it. Why? B/C they where bred to be retrievers. Have you ever seen a Corgi nip at the heals for anouther animal or human? Why do you think that is? B/C they are bred to do so. Horses are no different. My Reining horse is bred to rein and work cattle. I have foals at 12 hours old out running and sliding. They are bred to rein they love it. You do not train that into the horse. You simple put a comand to it. Just like you can not train a cutting horse to cut. They either have it of they do not.

Here is a picture of my mare at her very first NRCHA show. She had only been worked on a cow one time the night before this show. She won both of her classes both days.









If you do not think these horses and dogs for that matter love what they do I invite you to come and see and ride them. Been doing this a long time and I can tell when a animal is doing what it loves.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Emily-just think about this. If humans had left the wild horses be, not ever used them, not ever made advancements, where would Emily be? Probably not sitting here arguing about this.

And Go back a few pages where you responded to my comment by calling me condescending. Actually I was NOT at all. I was serious in asking what you meant by the comment I have highlighted. I had, and still do not have, since you did not answer-any idea what you are talking about.

I would also point out that you have said you are a VEGETARIAN. NOT a VEGAN. THis means that you, just like most of us, USE animals. You eat eggs, milk, cheese...

After continuing to read your comments I still see someone who has unrealistic ideas of horses, and continues to fantasize about them running free, doing what they want. From what you have said, you do not like us telling horses what to do. THerefore the only logical conclusion is that when you are with your horse(s) you allow them to do whatever they want and ask nothing of them. That is what you are saying. I find it difficult to believe that that is what actually happens.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> After continuing to read your comments I still see someone who has unrealistic ideas of horses, and continues to fantasize about them running free, doing what they want. From what you have said, you do not like us telling horses what to do. THerefore the only logical conclusion is that when you are with your horse(s) you allow them to do whatever they want and ask nothing of them. That is what you are saying. I find it difficult to believe that that is what actually happens.


We can't turn back the hands of time and go back to the horses being wild and free. I don't want to do that even if we could. Call me selfish or whatever you like, I love my horses. I love the feeling that they give me and I love being able to enjoy riding. My horses are nothing like the wild horses of years ago. If I turned my horses loose they would starve to death and die. A domesticated horse is far from its ancestors and that is just a fact. The horses of long ago, and the horses we enjoy now may share genetics BUT the have been changed through domestication. These horses DEPEND completely on us for survival. Maybe it is wrong, hell who knows BUT I DO know there is no way to turn back now. Might as well saddle up and enjoy them  

An owner who does exactly that gives them too much freedom only dooms them to an early grave UNLESS they are prepared to foot the bill for 30+ years to have a pasture ornament. A rideable, useful, well mannered horse is the only kind that seems to make it for very long. Plus a horse that is "worked" stays far healthier and stronger than one who is not thus lives longer. I say IF you love your horse you do work it, keep it healthy & keep it enjoyable. Spoiling them or giving them far too much downtime makes them have behavior issues and can actually ruin them...truth in the horse world...the more "useful" a horse is the longer he/she is going to be around.


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## Shiavo (Mar 23, 2011)

Just to weigh into the argument a little bit regarding 'horses being made to be used by humans'.

From a scientific point of view (I am not a creationist, please no one take this offensively, I have nothing but all the respect in the world for other beliefs and opinions), I agree, the species of horse did not come about to be owned by the human race.

I do however, think that this species, like most others is a rare gift. 
This creature evolved to the point of one day allowing someone to climb on its back.
This creature, even though driven by a flight response, had trust in members of our species so much so that it allowed them to tame, train and ride it. 
And it is PROVABLE, that flight animals feel safe and content when given clear direction by what they think of as their protector (which we have stepped up to become).

I also think that at some point man nearly entirely domesticated their species. And now it is our responsibility (maybe not our right, but definitely still OUR responsibility) to care for these creatures, give them the best care we know how, and a great owner, will find a horse that loves the activities they also do (like a barrel racer).

A friend of mine, for example, purchased a horse recently for relaxed trail riding.
After weeks with this horse we realised that he would just not be happy unless he was doing what he loved most - endurance riding. After some searching, we found a woman he clicked with and off they set. I have never seen him more buzzing with excitement and such bright eyes than I have when they came back from their first big ride. 

So from MY scientific perspective, in conclusion, no I don't think horses were put here to belong to man, but I do think we evolved together to mutually benefit from each other, they have our protection, we have their service and we have each other.
Whether you think this is a good thing or a bad thing is beside the point, now that we have come this far, we can only do the best we can by them and I firmly believe that most of the members on this forum demonstrate through their answers that they are always willing to go the extra mile to make sure that their companies are happy, safe and healthy.

*As a side comment: *I found the comment about finding pedigree breeding pathetic. I find this strange as, as I am an animal welfare activist I in fact LOBBY responsible breeding. People should be doing their research, people should only be breeding animals that contribute to their species. The human race has done enough damage with show breeding (i.e. The damage we have done to the French Bulldog is now irreversible), we need to step back and say 'this animal came out of a long line of healthy well adjusted animals' and then possibly proceed instead of 'this animal has a uterus and thus must have a baby'. 
I have many wide opinions on animal welfare, some of them ever evolving the more information I read, but breeding, I am firm on. You do not breed an unknown animal. You do not breed without knowing the lineage of an animal. You do not contribute to the damage we do to the future of their species. Like everything else, we domesticated them, it's now our responsibility to ensure that they have the best shot at a long, healthy and happy life.


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## QOS (Dec 8, 2008)

I have only seen small clips of PP - have read some of his fliers on line - he does seem to think he is God of horses which I find a little amusing. There is a ton of ways to train a horse or any animal - not every method will work for every animal or person. 

And yes, God put horses here for man's use. We are stewards over them and he did put them here for our benefit and use. Does that mean they should be beat, abused or starved? Certainly not. That is not good stewardship. 

I love my horses dearly. They are my entertainment, recreation, stress relief and exercise all rolled into one. They cost me a chunk of change but I consider them worth every penny that I spend on them. 

As far as work - everybody and everything has a "job". Hahahaha look at insects...good grief - who works harder than bees or ants? For my horse, Biscuit, his job is to trot me around when I want to trot around. In return he is "paid" for his labor. His pay is a very nice paddock of about 4 acres with his buddy, Sarge, our other horse. Other horses are in paddocks on either side so he has plenty of horsey company. He has water, shelter from weather, and twice a day he has room service in the shape of a Gator that comes down the road and Edgar or Jamie feeds him and gives him hay. He has vet service, his pedicures done by me, he is groomed and petted and loved on. His wants and needs are taken care of. He LOVES staying at Plum Nearly Ranch...because before he didn't have any of that - he wasn't abused physically by his former owner but he wasn't fed on regular basis either and 200 lbs underweight when I got him and full of worms. His "trainer" had abused and harshly treated him...so yeah...Biscuit is more than happy to work for me. 

My cousin's horse was being a toot one day - stopping and refusing to go where she wanted. This horse is trained out the wazootie and treated like gold. He was just being a toot. I told him on the next ride that his job was to haul his owner around where she wanted to go - in return - he got a good home, nice stable, feed twice a day and treats from me on rides. LOL it was kinda just a funny little talk with our animals but it is right on the money - it is his JOB that he gets paid for very nicely. 

My hubby's horse LOVES to go - and woo hoo....loves to chase cows. Both of my horses love to get out, ride, come back and then are ready to go again. Poor Sarge looks so sad when I go out and get Biscuit and load him up and haul out and he has to stay! 

Horses are smart, sensitive creatures and deserve to be treated well. I have no problem with that but they do have a job on this earth and it is to be the servant of man.


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

There are some truly "wild" species of horses and other equines remaining - but the "wild mustangs" of the American West are not truly wild. They are an introduced, feral species. They are descendants of domesticated horses brought by Europeans and either escaped or set loose, formed herds, bred, and now roam free. 

The truly "wild" horse species of North America became extinct thousands of years ago. They're gone. 

Even today, people are turning domesticated horses loose to "roam free" because the economy has gotten so bad, they can no longer afford to feed or care for them. IMO, many of these people are delusional to think that they are doing their horses a favor - they are washing their hands of the responsibility of being a horse owner.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

Jolly Badger said:


> Even today, people are turning domesticated horses loose to "roam free" because the economy has gotten so bad, they can no longer afford to feed or care for them. IMO, many of these people are delusional to think that they are doing their horses a favor - they are washing their hands of the responsibility of being a horse owner.


And unfortunately these domesticated horses slowly starve to death just like dogs that get dumped off in the country.  Unless a rescue or the sheriffs dept steps in and rounds them up more often than not the perish in a miserable way. We HAVE changed them into something we can "use"...it's no worse than the chicken that has been changed to mature in 6 weeks, or the cow that is twice the size it's grandforfathers were. We have changed the dogs in our lives to serve more purpose. Do you think Emily that the canines that serve along law enforcement are being unfairly treated because they have a job? They love it. Look at the mounted polices horses...they go to work everyday...do they mind...no. You take a cutting horse that has never cut a cow and throw it in with some calves and see what happens. Thoroughbreds hit the track and they turn into a beast of a running machine. They LOVE to run. It is what it is.


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## Rellor (Mar 11, 2012)

Why hasn't anyone here started a new thread? A title like Are our horses slaves? or Does your horse enjoy his job? might be appropriate.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

back to the original subject, after reading about "hill therapy" and how it reverses horses who have a downhill build, then talks about not getting after your horse when it stops to eat grass when being lunged! because you don't want to "sacrifice your relationship". Seriously? No thanks. if i want a gimiky train that works, i'll go with CA


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> Emily-just think about this. If humans had left the wild horses be, not ever used them, not ever made advancements, where would Emily be? Probably not sitting here arguing about this.
> 
> And Go back a few pages where you responded to my comment by calling me condescending. Actually I was NOT at all. I was serious in asking what you meant by the comment I have highlighted. I had, and still do not have, since you did not answer-any idea what you are talking about.
> 
> ...


Your saying that you are reading my comments so either you clearly can't understand what I'm saying or you don't want too. It is not unrealistic to wish that people would leave wild horses alone. No, I don't let my horses just do whatever they want because as I have said over and over and over and over again its a two way relationship. Its give and take. I'm not going to continue re-writing everything I've already said.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

QOS said:


> I have only seen small clips of PP - have read some of his fliers on line - he does seem to think he is God of horses which I find a little amusing. There is a ton of ways to train a horse or any animal - not every method will work for every animal or person.
> 
> And yes, God put horses here for man's use. We are stewards over them and he did put them here for our benefit and use. Does that mean they should be beat, abused or starved? Certainly not. That is not good stewardship.
> 
> ...


Yeah insects do work, but humans aren't (or at least they shouldn't be) FORCING them to do it. Chasing cows I don't agree with, never have and never will (sure I will get lots of hate for that). I agree with taking care of and having a relationship that goes both way between horses and humans. The horses that are ALREADY domesticated. Not bringing in new ones. You can't pick and choose when you want your horse to have its wild instincts. They are ALWAYS there.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

It is not a 2 way relationship. I am the leader and the horse is the follower. It is just that simple. Go watch a herd of horses. There is no 2 way streat there. The lead mare sets the rules and ALL the other horses follow her rules and if they do not they get repromanded by the lead mare and if they do not fall into like they are kicked out of the herd where they will not servive for long if they are either not allowed back in or can not find anouther herd that will take them in. Which is slime to non.

If I want my horse to go in a certain direction they are going to go like it or not. That is the way it is. There are reasons why I want my horse to go where I tell them and when I tell them to go that way. It might just be that is where I wish to go but it could be that it is the only safe direction.

Also after reading everything you have posted EmileyRossie and everything others have posted I find that is really is you who are having a hard time understanding. Horses have been demesticated for 100's of years to serve man. With out horses man would never have been able to do what we do today and where we are today. With out humans horses would probable not have servived the way they are today either. In that respect it is a 2 way streat. They sever me and my needs and in return I give them what they need to servive. It really is not a hard concept to get. That is the ONLY 2 way streat with a horse.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> It is not a 2 way relationship. I am the leader and the horse is the follower. It is just that simple. Go watch a herd of horses. There is no 2 way streat there. The lead mare sets the rules and ALL the other horses follow her rules and if they do not they get repromanded by the lead mare and if they do not fall into like they are kicked out of the herd where they will not servive for long if they are either not allowed back in or can not find anouther herd that will take them in. Which is slime to non.
> 
> If I want my horse to go in a certain direction they are going to go like it or not. That is the way it is. There are reasons why I want my horse to go where I tell them and when I tell them to go that way. It might just be that is where I wish to go but it could be that it is the only safe direction.
> 
> Also after reading everything you have posted EmileyRossie and everything others have posted I find that is really is you who are having a hard time understanding. Horses have been demesticated for 100's of years to serve man. With out horses man would never have been able to do what we do today and where we are today. With out humans horses would probable not have servived the way they are today either. In that respect it is a 2 way streat. They sever me and my needs and in return I give them what they need to servive. It really is not a hard concept to get. That is the ONLY 2 way streat with a horse.


Okay let me rephrase: When I am working with my horse, obviously I have to be the leader. This doesn't mean that I have to act like a "boss" I do watch herds of horses all the time and lots of the time there is a leader and a boss. The leader is the one the horses listen to and feel safe with, but they tolerate and move when the boss comes near them because he/she is the tough guy who bites and kicks. Which does your horse think you are? I will never agree with you. STOP trying to change my mind. Horses were not created to serve people. You are not debating with me, none of you are, you are all trying to explain to me why you are right. There is a big difference.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> Yeah insects do work, but humans aren't (or at least they shouldn't be) FORCING them to do it. Chasing cows I don't agree with, never have and never will (sure I will get lots of hate for that).
> *Then how do you suggest you get the cattle from one feed area to anouther?? Oh I know we can just let them stay and graze all the pasture down and then starve. Or better yet just let them rome where ever they want. Let them trample the corn crops and soybean crops and all the other crops b/c we do not wish to chase them from one area to anouther? I know lets just keep them in feed lots. No need to have a horse chase them then. Horses are bred to work cattle b/c cattle have always been needed moved. Form winter pasture down to be taken care of and sent off to market. Cut out of the herd to be branded so everyone knows whos cattle belongs to who. With out horses this would would have been very hard to do and horses are still used for this work today in a lot of the US.*
> 
> I agree with taking care of and having a relationship that goes both way between horses and humans. The horses that are ALREADY domesticated. Not bringing in new ones. You can't pick and choose when you want your horse to have its wild instincts. They are ALWAYS there.


Yep like I said the only 2 way relationship will be that my horse does as I ask and I feed and care for them. That is the only 2 way steet here with any of the animals. Even the dogs. They behave follow the rules and in return they get a nice place to live or stay until they get new homes they get feed toys bones and so on and in return they do what I want. I am happy and they are very happy.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Yep like I said the only 2 way relationship will be that my horse does as I ask and I feed and care for them. That is the only 2 way steet here with any of the animals. Even the dogs. They behave follow the rules and in return they get a nice place to live or stay until they get new homes they get feed toys bones and so on and in return they do what I want. I am happy and they are very happy.


Oh my gosh. Are you kidding me? Really? I think its pretty obvious that I disagree with chasing cows for recreational fun. Although I do believe that there are other ways to do that. Entirely different topic.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Emily, what the hell do you think America or any other modern civilization was built with? Horses... Cattle... and Oxen...

It just ****es me off when these super liberal types want to speak their opinion about subjescts that they nothing about other than what was spouted in a Berkley clasroom, at best.

People may be vegetarians or vegans but I guarentee they use some kind of beef by product. Everyone does whether they want to admit it or not. Even asphalt for putting on roads has a beef by product in it.
I guarantee there is something in every household that has a beef by product in it. And guess what you need to handle beef....horses...if it wasn't for cowboys, how would beef get to market? Farmers and Cowboys are the life blood to keep us fed.

If you are so Hell bent on horses being natural, why do you own one? The way your talking you might as well turn him loose and see how well he does on his own. Same as the FERAL horses....not wild mustangs like the Disney Movie. How many times have you rode up to a dried out water hole and seen "wild mustangs" dead because of starvation....no more feed, too many horses.... 
They aren't even Mustangs anymore they are ferel horses. My grandpa like every other rancher used to cull out the crappy ones and turn their broodmares out with them to make ranch horses. If you go to a BLM horse adoption thinking your getting a Spanish Barb...lol...you are sadly mistaken. Those horses need to be managed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> Okay let me rephrase: When I am working with my horse, obviously I have to be the leader. This doesn't mean that I have to act like a "boss" I do watch herds of horses all the time and lots of the time there is a leader and a boss. The leader is the one the horses listen to and feel safe with, but they tolerate and move when the boss comes near them because he/she is the tough guy who bites and kicks. Which does your horse think you are? I will never agree with you. STOP trying to change my mind. Horses were not created to serve people. You are not debating with me, none of you are, you are all trying to explain to me why you are right. There is a big difference.


 
First the boss and the leader are one in the same. I am the leader. If I need to I will make sure they know this the same way a lead mare will make the others know she is lead mare. You sould see what my Dun It mare does to the other mares when they get out of line. She is boss and they all know it and if at some point they forget she reminds them BIG TIME.

Also debating is simple explaning your side with facts to why your point of veiw is correct. There is no differance. We are debating. We are taking out side and backing it with facts. You have yet to show any facts as to your side. You just keep saying that is a 2 way street and we need to let them be and live that that horse so not like to work. You have yet to back any of that up with any facts yet I and the other have back up what we are saying with facts. Here is one for you. My horses are bred to work. They have been bred to work for generations. They LOVE to do that work. They show me by how they react to the trailer being loaded up that they come running when they see the bridle and saddle come out. How they do their job. It shows me they love it. The fact that it comes naturnal to them shows me they are bred for it just like my Golden is bred to be a water and land retriever and she loves it. She is good at it and she is ALWAYS ready to go to work.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> Oh my gosh. Are you kidding me? Really? I think its pretty obvious that I disagree with chasing cows for recreational fun. Although I do believe that there are other ways to do that. Entirely different topic.


 
No it is not a differnt toppic. These horses are bred to work cattle. At this point there are very few places where cattle are worked in that way yet there are people who still love to do the work as there are horses who are bred to do it so they started having compitions where you cut cattle. 

You keep saying there are other ways to do these things this is your side of the debate yet you never back it up with anouther way or any facts. You just keep giving your opinion with nothing to back it up. Just about every event that you see today originated in some way from real life work that needed to be done with the horses.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Emily, what the hell do you think America or any other modern civilization was built with? Horses... Cattle... and Oxen...
> 
> It just ****es me off when these super liberal types want to speak their opinion about subjescts that they nothing about other than what was spouted in a Berkley clasroom, at best.
> 
> ...


Have you read ANY of my posts at all? My goal is to help horses that are ALREADY domesticated to live as natural of a life as possible, but it goes both ways which is why I believe riding is okay. Ha. You must not be a vegetarian because when you actually want to be you check everything 5 times to make sure there is no meat at all in it. Did you seriously ask me some of those questions? I wish beef wasn't in grocery stores. It makes me angry when people like you decide that you don't want to change so you tear down people like Pat Parelli or other natural horsemanship. I am not "a super liberal type" and I repeat if you read my posts you would know that. Yeah of course ride horses, but CARE. Care that this is different from what they know. CARE that they feel things too. Care that sometimes just like humans they are having an off day. Just care about them.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> First the boss and the leader are one in the same.*I will NEVER agree with you on this.* I am the leader. If I need to I will make sure they know this the same way a lead mare will make the others know she is lead mare. You sould see what my Dun It mare does to the other mares when they get out of line. She is boss and they all know it and if at some point they forget she reminds them BIG TIME. *Good for her. She's a horse, your not.*
> 
> Also debating is simple explaning your side with facts to why your point of veiw is correct. There is no differance. We are debating. We are taking out side and backing it with facts. You have yet to show any facts as to your side. You just keep saying that is a 2 way street and we need to let them be and live that that horse so not like to work. You have yet to back any of that up with any facts yet I and the other have back up what we are saying with facts. Here is one for you. My horses are bred to work. They have been bred to work for generations.*Thats YOUR opinion. Thats what you believe. OBVIOUSLY they have been bred for generations, but it shouldn't be to serve humans.* They LOVE to do that work. They show me by how they react to the trailer being loaded up that they come running when they see the bridle and saddle come out. How they do their job. It shows me they love it. The fact that it comes naturnal to them shows me they are bred for it just like my Golden is bred to be a water and land retriever and she loves it. She is good at it and she is ALWAYS ready to go to work.


I think we have all exhausted this subject enough and can agree to disagree. I will never agree with you and you will never agree with me.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Emily, if you think horses aren't meant to serve humans, why do *you* ride yours? Honest question.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

EmilyRosie said:


> Have you read ANY of my posts at all? My goal is to help horses that are ALREADY domesticated to live as natural of a life as possible, but it goes both ways which is why I believe riding is okay. Ha. You must not be a vegetarian because when you actually want to be you check everything 5 times to make sure there is no meat at all in it. Did you seriously ask me some of those questions? I wish beef wasn't in grocery stores. It makes me angry when people like you decide that you don't want to change so you tear down people like Pat Parelli or other natural horsemanship. I am not "a super liberal type" and I repeat if you read my posts you would know that. Yeah of course ride horses, but CARE. Care that this is different from what they know. CARE that they feel things too. Care that sometimes just like humans they are having an off day. Just care about them.



Oh I must be mistaken, because I believe above was said that wild horses should be left alone....

You can beat your sweet cheeks that I am NOT a vegetarian. Beef by products are in a lot of things...if you drive on asphalt you are using a beef byproduct.....

By the way I am not tearing down Natural Horsemanship...all REAL natural horsemanship is, is common sense. Not some marketing gimmick for people who need a systamatic way of "communicating" with their horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

Speed Racer said:


> Emily, if you think horses aren't meant to serve humans, why do *you* ride yours? Honest question.


Lots of horses are domesticated and I would like to achieve a relationship with the horse similar to that of a leader in a herd. However, I am human so of course the relationship would be a bit different. I believe that a horse would enjoy the company of a human leader because then they are calm and know that they do not need to be looking out for themselves. They test though all the time asking the question "Are you still my leader? Okay good. I'm safe" Since safety is the most important thing to a horse thats a wonderful thing. So even though I enjoy riding, I don't just do it for fun. I do it because I honestly believe that a domesticated horse feels safe when they have a leader in charge. Then you can achieve that wonderful connection where both of you are moving together. If the horse says "Are you still me leader? Hello?" and the human doesn't go yes I am. Then the horse will "act up". When I say testing I mean shoving its nose into you and trying to bite you and it escalates and escalates. I don't show my horses or do any of that. I do believe though that horses love to have fun, they aren't just working machines so once you have achieved that close relationship you can do different things "fun things". I believe there is a huge difference between leader and boss. If my horse leans its nose into me I push it away, 2nd time I push it away, a 3rd time gets a bigger reaction, maybe being sent away until he/she understands yes you can stand next to me but only when you are nipping at me. 

Then the horse understands though "Oh, I can't do that to you. You have rules. you are _leader_". My evidence nrhareiner is the horses that this has worked with. This is why I ride, but sometimes I go out and do the groundwork I always do before riding and I can tell that my horse is just a little off that day and I end up not riding, but just doing groundwork. I really believe people really need to hear the horse more.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Oh I must be mistaken, because I believe above was said that wild horses should be left alone....
> 
> You can beat your sweet cheeks that I am NOT a vegetarian. Beef by products are in a lot of things...if you drive on asphalt you are using a beef byproduct.....
> 
> ...


What on earth? How am I even supposed to respond to this? There is nothing to respond too.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

I repeat that I think this subject has been exhausted and there is nothing left to debate. I clearly understand, but disagree with the stance that seems to be this entire forum and I think what I believe has been made pretty clear, but disagreed with. I think there is nothing else to say.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

This is on the subject of Parelli and I think Emily is a good example for this scenario. Emily seems like a "good intentioned" horsewoman. She seems to have the best interest of her horses at heart. I don't think she would ever intentionally abuse or neglect her animals and she seeks to have a quality relationship with them. PP claims to be able to give this to people and I think this is just dangerous for anyone who is new to horses. I mean back in the day before the internet, DVD's and all the media hype of "do it yourself" training...how did horses get trained. Well they went to a pro...who had years of experience and knew how to do the job professionally. He would have apprenticed alongside another trainer and he would have this down like a craftsman... an artisan of sorts. I do believe people can train their horses...I know they can ruin training quiet easily as well. I think though that training horses is something that should be left to the people who have the experience to understand the animals physical, emotional & psychological needs and know how to lay a FIRM foundation. I think my problem with alot of these systems is we are seeing people get involved in an area that does take great skill to successfully complete and thus I see alot of half arsed trained animals that give people issues down the road. I think there are certain jobs for certain people. Training animals especially animals that are as large and potentially dangerous as a horse can be something out of the range of some peoples skills sets. Not to say that it can't be done...BUT...I think it is sad when someone with a super soft and compassionate attitude tries to apply system x to a dominant and bossy even aggressive animal and instead of helping make it better they only amplify every bad habit the horse has. They are good for some things BUT if you think they are the end all they are not and if you think everyone in the world is cut out to be a horse trainer you are mistaken. Some things are worth having a pro do.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

EmilyRosie said:


> What on earth? How am I even supposed to respond to this? There is nothing to respond too.


Perhaps I am going on a bit of a rant, and not thinking sentences through. My point is that, we all care about our horses. We wouldn't be here if we didn't have horses. Just because some of us use our horses differently than you doesn't mean we don't care for them. They enjoy their "jobs" whatever definition you want to give it. And some of us don't chase cattle recreationaly( you said this was a different subject, but I am going there because it is related)it is our job to put beef on the table. While you don't eat beef you use a byproduct whether you want to admit it or not. Your right, I don't like PP, but I don't disagree with NH. It is the way its marketed...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> Have you read ANY of my posts at all? My goal is to help horses that are ALREADY domesticated to live as natural of a life as possible, but it goes both ways which is why I believe riding is okay. Ha. You must not be a vegetarian because when you actually want to be you check everything 5 times to make sure there is no meat at all in it. Did you seriously ask me some of those questions?
> *Yes you where asked those questions b/c if you are a vegetarian vs Vegen these are things you need to address. If you do not then you are only doing what is convienent for you to satisfy what you think you should be doing.*
> 
> I wish beef wasn't in grocery stores. It makes me angry when people like you decide that you don't want to change
> ...


This is what they know. They know about working and they love it. They have never known any different. My broodmares get ticked this time of year b/c they stop getting worked. The saddle does not fit them any more. They will start getting worked again in a few months. 

Again I am not sure why you seem to think that we do not care about our horses. As you are so fond of saying READ what is typed.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> Lots of horses are domesticated and I would like to achieve a relationship with the horse similar to that of a leader in a herd.
> *Yep everytime I walk out to the barn or pasture I have that relationship. I automatically become the learder/Boss as they ARE the same thing. Even my Dun It mare falls in line.*
> 
> However, I am human so of course the relationship would be a bit different.
> ...


I hear my horses just fine. I know what they like and I know what they do not like. Te hates running any speed event so I stopped doing play days with him. He loves to rein so I still at times leg him up and take him to shows. He LOVES going. He also loves roping even more so reined cow horse. So again at times I take him to practices and such so he can still get his "fix". Cassie does not like people who do not know what they are doing to ride her so I do not use her for beginners where Te loves kids so who do you think gets pulled out to give rides? Te my stallion not my finished proven reining mare. She does not suffer fouls well where Te loves them.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Honestly Emily, I think YOU are the one who needs to reread you own posts. You want horses to be all natural, yada yada--and you own one....but somehow, what you do with yours isn't work? I have read them, and I even RE READ to make sure I try and "get it". A bit to liberal for my taste, and idealistic, and .........anyway-I am done. Argue your point with someone else.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> Honestly Emily, I think YOU are the one who needs to reread you own posts.You want horses to be all natural, yada yada--and you own one....but somehow, what you do with yours isn't work? I have read them, and I even RE READ to make sure I try and "get it". A bit to liberal for my taste, and idealistic, and .........anyway-I am done. Argue your point with someone else.


I already said there is nothing left to discuss you will never agree with me and I will never agree with you. Agree to disagree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Perhaps I am going on a bit of a rant, and not thinking sentences through. My point is that, we all care about our horses. We wouldn't be here if we didn't have horses. Just because some of us use our horses differently than you doesn't mean we don't care for them. They enjoy their "jobs" whatever definition you want to give it. And some of us don't chase cattle recreationaly( you said this was a different subject, but I am going there because it is related)it is our job to put beef on the table. While you don't eat beef you use a byproduct whether you want to admit it or not. Your right, I don't like PP, but I don't disagree with NH. It is the way its marketed...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well I already said that I disagree with the recreational roping/chasing cows.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> This is what they know. They know about working and they love it. They have never known any different. My broodmares get ticked this time of year b/c they stop getting worked. The saddle does not fit them any more. They will start getting worked again in a few months.
> 
> Again I am not sure why you seem to think that we do not care about our horses. As you are so fond of saying READ what is typed.



You seem to think that materialistic things are what makes your horse happy. What about a relationship with you? Yeah I don't have a big reaction the first time my horse does something, then what about if a horse tries to kick you? You have the same reaction as if they nuzzle you? That doesn't make sense. Why do you need me to agree with you so badly? I'm saying lets agree to disagree. Why can't you? Why do you need me to agree with you so badly? I have my opinion and you have yours.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

EmilyRosie I bet you love your horses. And I bet nrhareiner loves her horses too. There are different types of love though dear, and I agree with you 100% that the secret to a happy horse is a balanced situation for the animal. I will say that I deal with horses a lot and the ones that truly are the most unhappy (if we were to label it) are the ones who's owners DON'T give them structured activities to release all of the energy our man-made diets give them...and then to make matters worse we confine them. THIS IS COUNTER PRODUCTIVE. You have 1200 + pounds of pure lean muscle that is itching to go. It wants to move about, it needs to forage for its food, it needs to kick up it's heels and run full speed and get those muscles pumping and that heart pounding OTHERWISE that energy gets displaced on things and on people. That energy can turn into aggression, it can turn into destructive vices such as cribbing, pacing, weaving. The horses body is designed to move to be active. And when you learn about horse psychology you learn that through "working" your horse, moving those feet, engaging their minds you ARE bonding. It is the healthiest and most effective way of bonding with your horse. Be it ground*work* or saddle*work* it is all just ways to burn off that pent up energy. A horse that is worked IS bonding the whole time. It is paying attention, it is listening, it is respecting and a good horseman/horsewoman is listening and paying attention to their horse too or they won't be successful at whatever "work" they do. They are a team.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> , then what about if a horse tries to kick you?


Well I would not know as my horses have never tried to kick me. They know better just like Gracie and Mia know better then to try and kick Cassie.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Well I would not know as my horses have never tried to kick me. They know better just like Gracie and Mia know better then to try and kick Cassie.


You ignored *everything* else I just said.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> You seem to think that materialistic things are what makes your horse happy. What about a relationship with you? Well lets see. *As I have stated meny times. My horses come running to the gate or barn when I go out. They put their head in their halter when asked. When I come in the barn they stop what ever they are doing including eating to stick their head out to eat. So ya I think they like me and want my attention when I go out to see them. Even Cassie would stop eating when I went into her stall at the trainers regardless of how long it had been since I was last up there.* Yeah I don't have a big reaction the first time my horse does something, then what about if a horse tries to kick you? *See it not so much how big the reaction is it is the fact that you get your point accoss the first time. I do not like to pick on a horse. There are some hills I will not die on and other I will. I find that correct the bahaivor the first time then you do not have to do it again there is no knit picking on the horse.* You have the same reaction as if they nuzzle you? That doesn't make sense. *Sure it dose. A bad behaivor is a bad behavior.* Why do you need me to agree with you so badly? I'm saying lets agree to disagree. Why can't you? Why do you need me to agree with you so badly? I have my opinion and you have yours.


Since you seem to want a response here is it. I do not care if you agree with me or not. I am simple replying to what you have typed. Would not want any impressionable kid to get the wrong info and idea. Past that I could care less what you do or do not do. The fact is that horses like to work it fun for them they enjoy it. Plane and simple. Horses are bred to work same as dogs or any other demestic animal. Just b/c you choise not to do the same things with your animals does not make this any less of a fact.


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Since you seem to want a response here is it. I do not care if you agree with me or not. I am simple replying to what you have typed. Would not want any impressionable kid to get the wrong info and idea. Past that I could care less what you do or do not do. The fact is that horses like to work it fun for them they enjoy it. Plane and simple. Horses are bred to work same as dogs or any other demestic animal. Just b/c you choise not to do the same things with your animals does not make this any less of a fact.


There have been a number of times that I debate even responding to a post on on this thread. I am not going to battle this anymore because you get nasty when you think the other person has a point. I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe yes, plain and simple. No, horses should not be bred for work once domesticated. The "Just b/c you choose not to do the same things with your animals does not make this any less of a fact." didn't really make sense. Not an impressionable kid. I think I covered everything.


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## RoosHuman (Dec 27, 2011)

franknbeans said:


> Honestly Emily,* I think YOU are the one who needs to reread you own posts. You are an idealistic liberal who talks out of both sides of her face. *You want horses to be all natural, yada yada--and you own one....but somehow, what you do with yours isn't work? I have read them, and I even RE READ to make sure I try and "get it". A bit to liberal for my taste, and idealistic, and .........anyway-I am done. Argue your point with someone else.


Yikes... that was very offensive!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Funny you want me to respond yet that is what you come back with? I have an idea. Why dont you start a poll about horses being bred to work and see what you get.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Funny you want me to respond yet that is what you come back with? I have an idea. Why dont you start a poll about horses being bred to work and see what you get.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How about you just leave this thread alone? Are you capable of that or are you one of those people who thinks everybody on the planet needs to agree with you?


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> No more then er reply to her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Haha exactly my _reply_ to her offensive comment.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> Yeah it was, but when people think they are losing an argument they get mad.


I do not see anyone getting mad. The fact is that there have been a lot of replys that have all stated a different opinion then yours so they are ALL wrong & you are correct?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

EmilyRosie said:


> Haha exactly my _reply_ to her offensive comment.


Again you not getting it. Oh well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> I do not see anyone getting mad. The fact is that there have been a lot of replys that have all stated a different opinion then yours so they are ALL wrong & you are correct?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know what? Your right, I'm wrong 100%. Now can you leave it alone?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Sure just stop posting and we will continue on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

This has become too much of "tit for tat" argument and has no real chance of resolving itself at this point. Closing .


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