# Rollkur



## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Everyone here is going to agree with you, it won't be much of an argument.

Those over at the boards of Chronicle of the Horse, where a lot of people post who have big money and are in all of those upper level shows, will have a debate as many use it and many do not. They say that modern dressage is changing.


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## lexxwolfen (Oct 22, 2009)

mayfieldk said:


> They say that modern dressage is changing.


 
It seems that what is being done now is not even dressage. It has moved from horse and riding being in complete harmony to horse being at the mercy of a cruel and unforgiving rider. 

The horse community is so big, I think it's just a matter of spreading the facts and rallying to ban the practice....


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## PiggyPablo (Jan 17, 2009)

I agree. It's horrible. I read Anky Van Grunsven uses it  I look at it this way, I want to make sure my horse is happy (first priority) and I would never resort to such a method to "WIN". We're partners, 50/50.


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## lexxwolfen (Oct 22, 2009)

PiggyPablo said:


> I agree. It's horrible. I read Anky Van Grunsven uses it  I look at it this way, I want to make sure my horse is happy (first priority) and I would never resort to such a method to "WIN". We're partners, 50/50.


 
Exactly, it should be a partnership. I mean they wouldnt even be there if it wasn't for the horse. And Anky is notorious for using it, I think some of her horses have their chins tucked INTO their chest. Not only is it cruel and painful but it causes long term problems for the horse. These people are not real riders or horse people, theyre just as bad as Michael Vick in my eyes.


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## PiggyPablo (Jan 17, 2009)

I know! In the Bejing Olympics I noticed it and Salinero was getting tired (it looked like) and started falling behind and she slapped him on the neck to keep going. I can't believe she won!


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## lexxwolfen (Oct 22, 2009)

I have to say the judges are as bad as the riders who use Rollkur. The saddest part of all is a horse who has been properly trained for years using classical methods, is not disconnect, is in harmony with his rider and relaxed will NEVER win. No one cares about how they get to the top, so long as they get there. I really do hope someone sticks an elevator bit into Anky's mouth and cranks her face into her chest, maybe then she'll understand.


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## PiggyPablo (Jan 17, 2009)

LOL yeah really  I was visiting a dressage barn a couple years ago and was watching a clinic. ALL the horses there where stiff, cranky and being forced into position. One of them didn't look fit enough to be doing such strenous advanced movements and the clinician and rider kept making (yes making) the horse do it time and time again in a double bridle. 

Come to find out the next week, I heard the rider's horse reared up and fell back on her and she broke almost every bone in her body and was hospitalized. Guess who's fault it was? THE HORSE! They sent him off to a diff. country and sold him when it was really the rider/clinician's fault!  Poor guy.


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## lexxwolfen (Oct 22, 2009)

It's always the horses fault. It's never "I'm an ignorant rider which is why I broke all my bones." When a horse stops at a jump, its his fault, when his saddle hurts him and he bucks, he's just being bad and it's all his fault. 

I'm lucky enough to have a coach who blames the rider 99% of the time lol. In my 13 years of riding, she's the best coach I've had and the ONLY one who rides the horse from back to front. Letting the head fall to the correct position itself instead of yanking it down like these "top level" dressage idiots.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

I own a horse that was trained/started with rollkur. It took me a few days/weeks to get him to even try to stretch down and out properly. It is a terrible thing to do to a horse, and if it is done too long the effects on the horse's body and mind are irreversible. I know it is unwise to compare people to humans, but I would never tell my horse to do something that I would find painful (except for things like vaccinations etc). This includes running with your head crammed against your chest for an hour. 

It is one thing to dislike rollkur, it is another to feel with your own hands what a horse that was trained with the method is like. Because I have felt my horse who was abused by heavy handed riders, I could feel his fear when I gathered up the reins, his desire to avoid being on the bit, the stiffness in his neck and back. Rollkur is performed by taking a horse that is above the bit and hollow, pulling hard, forcing them to go fast, see-sawing and yanking on the reins, and then the horse will compensate by curling under the bit and being tense. I do not know this from doing it myself, it is what I have seen with my very own eyes. People who do use such a method do not understand horses at all. All they understand is the color of a first place ribbon. I recognized his fear of the reins in seconds after mounting him. They told me that it was because he was young, because he isn't quite "finished" yet. That is one of the main reasons I bought him, he was at a big prestigious showing barn and chances are if I didn't buy him he would go to another showing rollkur owner and have an unhappy life.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

As an observation of an outsider, perhaps rollkur is why I am not interested in performing in that area? I see these horses who are stiff and mechanical and the riders who are so serious and think "that is just _uncomfortable_" I have a TB who would make a great dressage prospect, but I just can't bring myself to teach him something where that is the gold standard.


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## lexxwolfen (Oct 22, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> As an observation of an outsider, perhaps rollkur is why I am not interested in performing in that area? I see these horses who are stiff and mechanical and the riders who are so serious and think "that is just _uncomfortable_" I have a TB who would make a great dressage prospect, but I just can't bring myself to teach him something where that is the gold standard.


 
Even if you don't compete in dressage, it is still a basis for every other discipline. For show jumping you need collection, extension, balance... basic dressage really. 

When I first saw top level dressage I was disgusted, which is one reason why I'm so passionate about it now. One of the reasons I want to become a coach is to try and bring back classical dressage, to revive the elegance, harmony and partnership that dressage SHOULD be.


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## lexxwolfen (Oct 22, 2009)

Roro - It's a good thing you saved him, I'm happy to hear that he's in a safe and happy place now. 
I remember one time I went to look at a horse, and this guy was selling a 3yr old draft cross. He was trying to show her off and one of the "dressage" riders got on and took her for a spin around the arena. To get this poor mare on the bit she used all her weight to pull back on the reins and seesaw on her mouth. The poor thing ran around with her head in the air and mouth wide open. Then the rider went so far as to say the horse was ill-mannered. 

And for your horse, maybe he'd be a contender for a bitless bridle?


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## PiggyPablo (Jan 17, 2009)

I agree with you lexxwolfen. When I saw what I mentioned in my previous post, I was disgusted and thought "Oh man, if this is what dressage is about...all that intensity and pain...I don't want to be involved." But I went and researched and found an awesome instructor since that has shown me different. It gives me a "mind cramp" if you will witnessing what those who do Rollkur do. If I get a mind cramp, can you imagine what nightmares the horses experience?! :O IMHO, Rollkur should not even be associated with dressage....it is misleading and abusive.


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## lexxwolfen (Oct 22, 2009)

Unfortunately as long as it helps get results, it wont go anywhere unless the horse community unites and rallies to ban the practice... make it punishable by a massive fine and/or inprisonment and ban from owning horses ever again. 

Those rollkur riders should watch this wonderful instructional video on how dressage should be.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Like I said, you'll have no argument here.

I don't like the method and never will, but it really ISN'T about educating people. If you go to the COTH boards, these people are well aware of what they do to their horses. They think that 'it hurts the horse' is propaganda. They think that if they slowly and carefully and gently pull the horse's head back in a stretch, that it's okay.

I don't like it, but I don't like seeing it bashed. It seems very blind and close-minded to me.


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## Crimsonhorse01 (Sep 8, 2009)

So, I have no clue about dressage and all that "disciplined" stuff. What is Rollkur?


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## PiggyPablo (Jan 17, 2009)

Crimsonhorse01 said:


> So, I have no clue about dressage and all that "disciplined" stuff. What is Rollkur?


google it and you'll find it on wikipedia...best explains it.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Just like the Western Pleasure debate, the only thing that needs to be done is make the judges mark it down and keep people that do it from winning. It would change in 5 years and you would see no more horses being contorted like that. The international dressage groups can change the rules and make it a mark against a rider that has a horse behind the verticle.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Just like the Western Pleasure debate, the only thing that needs to be done is make the judges mark it down and keep people that do it from winning. It would change in 5 years and you would see no more horses being contorted like that. The international dressage groups can change the rules and make it a mark against a rider that has a horse behind the verticle.


Kevinshorses, you bring up a very good point. I think that it is very important that judges mark down if a horse is trained with a questionable method. However, international riders almost NEVER actually use rollkur in the show ring. They use it at their training facility and/or in the warm-up ring. It is a similar dilemma to that of the soring in TWH shows, the practice is frowned upon but the judges are impressed by the movement it creates and therefore it is encouraged. The judge sees the end result of rollkur, which is a tense, flashy horse that throws its legs out and has a dead hind-end with a hollow topline. The judges need to be educated on the difference between a relaxed horse and a tense horse. Learning relaxation is training level for dressage riders, why should the top judges be able to escape this important lesson that the majority of beginning riders already know?

This is Anky, one of the top riders of today who uses rollkur. She is performing a very crude piaffe, but judges absolutely lover her and she has won many competitions. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XJPVbyyr-oY/SY1-xViP8TI/AAAAAAAAAT0/bAhbBr8yYo4/s400/salinero_olympics.gif

Here is what a piaffe should look like: karlformyspace.jpg (image)

A novice rider could easily tell that Anky's piaffe is of much lower quality. There is little or no hind collection and her horse is leaning on the forehand. It does not take an expert to see this. The solution is, like kevins said, to educate the judges and train them to be able to recognize poor riding. To add on, warm-up arenas should be monitored for questionable methods and drug testing (to hide pain/discomfort etc) must be taken seriously; not only for dressage but for all disciplines in the show ring.


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## ThatNinjaHorse (Jul 26, 2009)

Didnt think i should start a new thread for this, since it relates.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

It's things like this that make me wonder if soem judges just hate horses. I can see no beauty in the way that horse is framed up. The sad thing is that to do dressage manuevers in that position must take a superbly athletic horse. That's why I like the idea behind three day eventing in the english world and reined cowhorse in the western world. They have to be able to use manuevers from dressage and reining in a "real world" situation.


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

Me and my friend wrote a letter to the company or whatever you call it that hosts all the dressage shows, etc and complained. I'm sure that nothing can be done with just two emails, but at least they know that there are some people that are against that type of treatment.

It sickens me to see a horse have to put up with that sort of treatment. No animal deserves that.


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## Aoi Miku (Sep 27, 2009)

It's common here. 
I got accused of using Rollkur on Haruko. Her headset and body makes it look like Rollkur when infact she's completely level.
Same with Volcan. His muscles are so massive in his neck due to half his manhood remaining it's hard to tell.
Friesiens(sp?) look like it too. You look at any Dressage stallion of the breed and it'll look like Rollkur.

I loath most disciplines of this sport. The top riders have sucked the fun out of it for kids age 13+ when they actually know the pretty pony isn't happy.
Still I can't help but think that nutter Nevzorov would kick their *** if he saw them lol.

Meh, I'll stick to my pacing pony and confused cob.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

No, AM, I'm sorry, but you can DEFINITELY tell Rollkur from a normal headset.


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## Aoi Miku (Sep 27, 2009)

On a WB.
Or a TB.
Not on a Freisian.


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## Aoi Miku (Sep 27, 2009)

Also to prove my point.





He's not Rollkur.
That's a normal Friesian head carriage in Dressage.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

That Ninja Horse - Blue Tongue World Cup 

For once I am lost for words except perhaps one : "Horrendous".
I could not watch it thru.

Barry G


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Aoi Miku said:


> Also to prove my point.
> YouTube - Friesian stallion Jasper 366 Dressage
> 
> He's not Rollkur.
> That's a normal Friesian head carriage in Dressage.


(note: I only watched the first little bit) No, he is not in Rollkur, but (to me) it is quite obvious. His crest isn't rolled over, and his chin isn't touching the lower part of the chest. 
There is a BIG difference between baroque horses' headcarriage and rollkur, it really isn't terribly hard to see. So in saying that your horse appears to be in rollkur when he's supposed to just be in frame, I wonder if he's not overflexing.


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## Aoi Miku (Sep 27, 2009)

She was never overbent if she was I'd be on the floor so fast because she wouldnt' take it. She had the normal head carriage of a Section C. The people who complained to me that she was Rollkur had skinny show ponies who's collection was fake and hollow. They probably just don't know what normal level head carriage is.

I have no idea what a baroque horse is.
But a lot of people would think he's Rollkur. I don't see how if they know anything about the breed.


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## PiggyPablo (Jan 17, 2009)

My Oldenburg is of Baroque type and he does not appear like Rollkur on the bit at all. He is always a little bit in front of the vertical comfortably.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Those who do not know about Rollkur look up
www.sustainabledressage.net and click "rollkur"

You'll need patience and a strong stomach - the article is 20 pages long


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Anky wins because she's Anky. That's what dressage no days seems to come down too. Big names, if you're not a big name on a horse with a flashy front end and plenty of cash behind you, you're not going to win in the big league. Simple as that. Hubertus Schmidt is a huge favourite of mine, he has had so many grand prix horses and having seen him teach clinics and ride in Australia a couple of times now, he is just so soft and accurate in his riding. However, he doesn't tend to ride horses with huge, flashy front legs. His tests don't look as 'flash' as Anky, Isabell etc. therefore he is not placed highly. His tests flow beautifull, so soft and correct, but the judges do not like it. How can that be justified?

Re: judges reflecting on the horses training/warmup by taking points in the test itself, they cant! They have to judge exactly what is in front of them. If the horse warms up beautifully, but comes into the arena spooking at the flowers or cars, and thus is tense and jumpy the whole test, it won't score well (unless a 'big name' is on board of course).

And in regards to rollkur, totally agree with other comments about it being abuse. However some people believe that it works, Anky for example is achieving fantastic percentages and placings at competitions, why shouldn't others follow her and use rollkur to get those high placings? If anky can do it, why can't we? it seems the aim of dressage has shifted from the harmony and ease of classical dressage, to this flashy, but false, modern day dressage that brings in the points. No one seems to care about correct work now, because you don't place. Winning is everything. it's not how it should be, but if you want to win, go out there force your horse into a lovely hollow backed, tense frame and you'll win yourself a test if horsey has flashy front legs!! 

Also kind of in regards to rollkur, one must keep in mind the difference between true rolkur and riding a horse 'deep and low'. There is a difference!! I go off at people who tell me I'm using rollkur on horses when in fact, the horse is one which likes to jam its neck and jaw and plow along. I will put that horse nice and long, with its nose 'on it's knees' so to speak. Stretching the top line and getting a more supple jaw and poll for a few strides, then come back up into a higher frame. This isn't forced at all, the horse is just made more comfortable to have it's head in a lower and rounder position with a nice stretched topline than to have it's head up and set with a hollow back.
Rollkur is just forced, the head is jammed into the chest, jaw and poll are set and usually mouth is gaping. Deep and low, horse is relaxed over the topline, mouth nice and quiet and soft, regular breathing. Big difference!!


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## HalfPass (Jun 12, 2009)

Ninja,
I am with Barry in this....
I watched until the guy stopped to stuff his poor horses blue tounge back into his mouth.
I could not help but notice the disgusted look of some of the onlookers!
This poor horses eyes looked as tho they would become sore due to his head being crammed to his chest...
I can only imagine how I would feel if i had to walk, run in this position for any length of time....
I did not inish watching the video....to cruel for me!
HP


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Ninja, the poor horse looked like he was suffocating, made me sick to my stomache...

If I every saw a horse like that jsut walking around I would assume it was close to dying for lack of oxygen, why is is acceptable in such a strict discipline?

Maybe top riders accused of rolkur training should be monitored *away* from the show(at home in the training barn) and not allowed to compete if their training practices are "questionable"... Maybe warmup should be monitored and trainers and riders using cruel and harmful practices should be given the yellow card and not allowed to compete.

I do not know about how horses are judged in dressage but it seems to me that this should be considered a fault, does it not violate any rules in the show ring??? This is almost as sick as soring in TWH's, causing obvious and proven harm yet getting away with it and doing it so bold faced? 

I am *disgusted* by the corrupt and brutish, ignorant and disgusting state of the horse world these days.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

oops my bad


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

Sometimes I have to get Geof a little behind the verticle, on our canter-trot transistions, because he tends to stick his nose out a little. 

I HATE this kind of stuff. It just makes me sick.

I will comment more thouroughly when I get home from finals


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## 5cuetrain (Dec 11, 2009)

I really don't know much about dressage but I enjoy watching the eventing for sure. Beautiful animals and very talented riders.

Things like this are in all performance levels of all disiplines for one basic reason---MONEY.

There are only a few exceptional animals who can win due to their natural athletic ability. The owners are investing more in the babies looking for "the one". The breeders are all touting "he or she is the one" and the trainers are all under enormous pressure to transform "the one" into "the one".

Big money at stake and big money dominates all--look at where we are as a country right now--the result of big money dominating (in my humble opinion).

Remember that its us common folks who pay the bills and we can change things for the better.

Go for it and god bless.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

Its just extreme hyperflexion right? 
I think at some point the horse fights back, so they've got to know the horse isnt happy with it. You have to really try to get that much overflexion. I see it at every level or riding, but not cranking on their mouths as much as the balck horse on the website. Its definatly not classical. I think rules are in the making, which will not allow hyperflexion in competitions, but I doubt they'll kick Anky out, they'll loose alot of spectators.


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

I agree. I used to admire Anky van Grunsven until all this came out. The last straw was when I watched her interview. It was disgraceful. 

I firmly believe that no horse should ever be behind the vertical under any circumstance. They should be slightly ahead or on the bit at all times, with the poll being the highest point. 

I'd like to read that book about it that was written by that European vet.


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## savvylover112 (Jul 17, 2009)

My pony is always behind the vertical it is so annoying and I try my hardest to raise him up from it but it is not hyperflexion because I am not doing it to my pony he is basically doing it to himself it is quite strange


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

> My pony is always behind the vertical it is so annoying and I try my hardest to raise him up from it but *it is not hyperflexion because I am not doing it to my pony* he is basically doing it to himself it is quite strange


Its still hyperflexion, he's just doing it on his own. Some horses try to evade that way, some just do it because thats what previous owners asked for.


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## savvylover112 (Jul 17, 2009)

Well I am not sure where he picked it up from because we are his first owners that rode him and I am the only one that rides him :S But what he used to try to do was bite his martingale and then when the martingale was removed he just kept his head there and I am working super hard to stop him from doing it.


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

^are you working seat into hands? That could be it. 


Anyway, contiuing what I was saying. I belive that it is wrong! I have heard what it does to the musculskeletal system, and wonder WHY they would want to do that to their high level horses! It disgustes me. I'm glad it isn't seen AS much in eventing.

As for the behind the verticle thing, I'm working on getting Geoffery still in transitions, but I do have to get him slightly behind the verticle for MAYBE 2 strides going to trot from canter. It just keeps me in more control and makes the transition smoother. 

Also, I have a friend who has an AMAZING eventing horse who carries her headset lower than most in the dressage. Her crest is a little higher than her poll, but it's not bad for the horse! She would die if she did anything to hurt that mare!


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

I also just thought about something else it does, because I am having to deal with this right now. It gives dressage riders a bad name. This girl was like "English riders just rip their horses faces off and yank on the reins." And for the past month I have been trying to tell her otherwise but thanks to high level dressage riders, she doesn't listen.....


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## savvylover112 (Jul 17, 2009)

StormyBlues said:


> I also just thought about something else it does, because I am having to deal with this right now. It gives dressage riders a bad name. This girl was like "English riders just rip their horses faces off and yank on the reins." And for the past month I have been trying to tell her otherwise but thanks to high level dressage riders, she doesn't listen.....


I hate when things like this happen a couple of people in a discipline do something so everyone else thinks we all do it.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Re horses travelling behind the vertical, this isn't always a rider inflicted problem. Some horses will evade pressure by running into the bit and clamping their jaw on it, while others will duck behind the vertical so as not to take contact, which means even by riding them back to front you still run into alot of issues. It's certainly not just a matter of kicking them and their head will come up! 
The horse I've just 'inherited' from a friend is one such horse, he is a 20year old tb gelding that I've got going for my dad to learn on, and I know that the rider he's had certainly does not hang off him and pull his head down, she rides him so much from behind and he still tries to evade in that way. I have to use shoulder in for about 70% of my ride to get him reaching for the bit.


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

Kayty, you seem like a very good rider!


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

I am one-hundred percent against the use of rollkur/hyperflexion. In fact, I've really devoted my time as of late to studying the effects of it. I'm currently creating a video series called _Discrete Abuse_, which will explain in detail what rollkur does to horses and other facts.
Not to be a shameless advertiser, but if anybody wants to be the first to see it when it is released, you can subscribe to my YouTube channel (link in siggy). I'm also working on a website for it.

On a side note, anybody who says, "Rollkur can be used correctly in experienced hands!" has obviously no idea the effects of what it does to horse physically and mentally, and is too *ignorant* to know of the healthy alternatives that make the horse *happy and correctly athletic*.

Also, rollkur is not just prelevent in dressage. Jumpers use it, hunters, saddle-seat riders, all diciplines! Hell, I've seen it common in the western pleasure style, believe it or not.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Western pleasure eh? Does the horse lay its jaw on its under belly lmbo? I though of a horse waloking with its head between its ankles when i thought wp rolkue hehehee.... sorry, tired


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

No, WP horses would be getting way behind the verticle


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

I actually met a lady while I was schooling Czar one day, who was hyperflexing her western pleasure horse just like how Van Grunsven or Gal do (meaning: head to neck and nose to chest). She had maybe been there for three days, and didn't know who anybody was.
So I was obviously ****ed off by this, and rode up beside her on Freddy. I said, "Excuse me, why are you pulling him into rollkur?"
"Oh, well, it helps stretch his back muscles and then makes him more happy to put down his head."
And I'm just staring at this poor palomino who's gaping his mouth open and rolling his eyes. So I got the balls to start throwing all the facts at her. People in the arena just had to stop and stare at this interesting scene: A forty-something something woman on this Barbie horse and this fourteen year-old girl on a clyde-cross yelling, "Unhappy - this," and "Longissimus - that."
I just left her there, jaw still on the ground. She moved out a week later, and in the mean time was avoiding me at all costs. A do I care what she thinks of me? No I don't. I just care about the horse.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Unfortunately, screaming at someone about how they are abusing their horse never brings about change. People copy what they see big name riders do all the time. It's pure ignorance, not deliberately harming their horse. If you do make a video, Id be excited to see something that isn't like every other anti-Rollkur video out there about the sad horses and it's torture and you're a bad bad rider. I'd like to see science and facts of why it's bad -- Not emotion. 

I don't agree with Rollkur. I just think some people get so over-emotional about their training beliefs that they end up closing peoples minds in the process.


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

Spastic_Dove said:


> Unfortunately, screaming at someone about how they are abusing their horse never brings about change. People copy what they see big name riders do all the time. It's pure ignorance, not deliberately harming their horse. If you do make a video, Id be excited to see something that isn't like every other anti-Rollkur video out there about the sad horses and it's torture and you're a bad bad rider. I'd like to see science and facts of why it's bad -- Not emotion.


I wasn't exactly as mature at the time as I am now xD (amazing what a few monthes can do to you!). But it really boiled me what her reasoning for using it, so I threw the facts at her. I wasn't really screaming at her, but I think that just making somebody aware will at least take them one step closer to the truth, even if it takes a while.
_Discrete Abuse_ is going to be the science behind it, along with some promotional videos for the ban of rollkur. The website is currently still in the coding stage, but I suppose it will be similar to Substainable Dressage, except completely focused on hyperflexion. I've put more than a huge amount of time studying the anatomy of the horse, reading articles, watching videos, even experimented a little bit myself (never again; I almost had Freddy go upwards on me). This is really a cause that I'm passionate about; you could say that I'm no regular teen when it comes to horses. I'm in it for life! ^.^;


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I wasn't talking about you in particular -- Sorry if it seemed that way. It just seems with any hot topic: Rollkur, breeding, etc people have such strong opinions that they just yell at eachother and it becomes an argument rather than a discussion. I'd like to see vets, chiropractors, etc. You're more likely to sway someone with facts than opinions and people are more likely to listen when they don't feel attacked  

Again, not saying you attacked someone -- It's just easy to happen with hot topics like this.


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

Yeah, I definitely know what you mean. xD


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I'm certainly not a fan of rulkur, however it sh!ts me to no end when people scream 'ROLKUR' if you put your horse deep for a few strides. I had a yong girl, probably 14/15? Come up to me at a comp once when I was warming up. I was on a hot tb that had a tendancy to lock it's jaw, set it's poll and charge into the bridle leaping all over the place. To curb this, I would put him deep for a few strides to get his brain back in his head, then ride him up again. This kid walks up and starts giving me a lecture about how I am being cruel to my horse because it's in 'rolkur' and she's going to tell everyone that I abuse my horses ya ya ya. 
Now I have that warmup on video, there is not one point of my ride in which my horse looked distressed or forced. When I occassionaly put him deep for a few strides (max 5 strides) this was not through forcing the jaw down, it was through riding the back end into my hands and making him give to the pressure and back off it. The second he was deep, his whole body relaxed, his hind legs came under him and he started swinging his back.

There is a big difference between rollkur and having a horse deep for a few strides. Thought I would just jump in and put this in the air before more people start going out lecturing people about rollkur when by no means are they using it. Rollkur is a forced helplessness, the rider creates it by dragging the jaw down the the chest using alot of pressure, then holding the head in that frame while kicking. Putting a horse deep is created by a rider riding the horse's hind legs up to meet the bridle, dropping the hands and making life uncomfortable for the horse to hang onto the bit and lock it's jaw, then as soon as the horse releases it's jaw, the pressure is removed and the horse will remain in that more comfortable position until asked to come into higher 'frame'. From this you can get a horse that immediately relaxes and gives to pressure, giving the rider more control of bend, flexion etc. Havign said that, I would only put a horse that evades by clamping the jaw and stiffening the neck in a deep frame. Putting a horse that evades by backing off the bit deep, is going to cause more harm than good and will just encourage the bahviour of evasion by backing off.


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

I'll do the same thing sometimes. I always start and end my schoolings with long and low, but if Freddy is being a bit of a hot giraffe, then I'll over-bridle him for a few steps. He then realizes, "Right, we'll play games some other time the..." It can also be the opposite if he's being Mr. Heavy and leaning on me; I just drop the reins and let him fall on his face (one time this literally happened. I'll tell you, he carried himself like a Grand Prix horse the rest of the ride). It's sounds mean, but being a small person on a really big horse, and it's the better thing to do anyway. He picks himself up and realizes, "Oh, so I have to carry myself? Dang..."


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

dressageexlee, too **** right that you should let him fall on his face! People shout 'cruel cruel' for things like that, if you give a horse one good whack with a dressage whip when they're running into your leg for example. This is not cruel. I think allowing a horse to remain in a state of confusion over what you are asking it is cruel. Make it stark obvious that the 'bad' behaviour is wrong. It doesn't take much if you go tough just once, rather than the constant fighting between a PC kid and their pony because they don't want to hit the pony because it will hurt it!! You won't hurt the horse, it's **** hard to hurt a horse, they take a hoof to the guts and hardly flinch, but then they know their place. Why can't we give them a quick whack to let them know where we want them, then be nice for the rest of the time?

Sorry getting off topic!


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

Here, here sista! >:3


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

Totally agreed! One Whack with the crop or one hard feeling of those spurs and Geof is like "Ok I'll do whatever you want now!" Cause I have to get him listening


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

If we have all of these reasons (mental and physical) not to ride deep... then why do it at all?

Train your horse, rather then muscle him into submission. When he can only see directly in front of him and his breathing is impaired, a LOT of horses will 'calm down'. You're dominating him completely.


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

mayfieldk said:


> If we have all of these reasons (mental and physical) not to ride deep... then why do it at all?
> 
> Train your horse, rather then muscle him into submission. When he can only see directly in front of him and his breathing is impaired, a LOT of horses will 'calm down'. You're dominating him completely.


Rollkur is what I term as a "shortcut" method. The upper level riders use it because they can get their horses to the highest level faster, and win. They are pressured with other things; clients, horses to train, money constraints, busy competition schedules, etc. Through this, I think they forget why they are really working in the horse buisness in the first place.
Is it easy to get caught in this cycle? Yes it is. Is it wrong? Of course. And the judges are only encouraging the use of rollkur by rewarding the people who use it. Just look at Van Grunsven and Gal. They're at the top of the world, yet the are both heavy users of rollkur.
It's completely *** backwards.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I wouldn't say he has his breathing impaired... it's not cranking his head down as in rollkut by any means, and his head is nowhere NEAR his chest, it's just a slight overbend for a few strides. When the horse is a Tb that is running flat out, head shoved in the air, jaw clamped and brain is very quickly flying out the window, his back up and people telling you to just throw him on the lunge or he's going to go off.... then putting him deep for a few strides to regain a little control is not going to cause lasting damage, in particular if it is only a one off at a conpetition. When at home, totally different story, horse is trained out of that behaviour and 'loss of brain' by riding up into the bridle, transitions, shoulder in etc. But at in a big open competition ground with horses everywhere, I am not going to risk having a horse take off rodeo bucking it across the grounds wiping people out. Horses are too dangerous to allow that. 
And clearly it's not causing him distress, because I have never had a horse fight that, once the are deep, I move them here there and everywhere, get their brains back in their heads then start riding them up again and don't have a drama afterwards. 

Sorry but I am offended by the above statement. Yes correct riding, back to front etc etc is the ultimate goal when training at home and in competition, but you are put in a dangerous situation, I would sure as hell rather gain control by putting a horse deep- NO NOT ROLKUR!- for a few strides, than risk my own life. Don't know how many OTTB's you've ridden and taken out, but when they panic, they truely panic and don't give a rats backside about the person on top. Their brains go out the window and there's not a hell of a lot you can do to get them to calm down unless it's under their own steam.
A WB or similar breeds, don't generally have the tendancy to lose all control of their reactions, and so I have never felt the need to put a WB deep like that at a competition when they get a bit flighty because you have so many more tricks up your sleeves to get out of the situation.

Rollkur is an entirely different kettle of fish to putting a horse deep for a few strides, if people cannot see that then they are riding blind.


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

Forgot to add:
But riding deep for a few strides will not hurt. It can be used as a way to say, "Hey, where's that attention, hm?" or, "I'm not kidding around here." Rollkur, on the other hand, is used as "an exercise for the whole body" as Van Grunsven preaches. Which is totally wrong.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

I dont agree with the rolkur,BUT
for a few stride i will ask my horse to bring her head behind the vertical a very little bit just to get her over her back that much more. I never force her down there, and never keep her there for more then a few strides, mostly onely one or two strides. I never hold her there, or force her there. I think draw reins are handy, but ca be used just as badly as the rolkur when used incorrectly. Gosh all these training tools are making bad riders get to high levels before they should be at them.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Kathy, I agree that when in a life or death or very dangerous situation, you do what you have to. Not only is it safer for you, but it's safer for the horse. Not trying to argue that extreme of a point. I have ridden many race horses _and_ OTTBs, and I know how silly they can get. I was referring to the 'I put him there to get his head back' comments.

But comments like this:
'head behind the vertical a very little bit just to get her over her back that much more.'

Disturb me. It does no such thing. It pulls up the front of the back by _locking the lumbar spine_. Why, why WHY would you ever want a horse to lock any part of it's body, let alone the most important part?

Forcing a horse there or asking them nicely--it doesn't make the move any more correct. You are _riding your horse from front to back by using the head for absolute control_. You are overstretching the neck. You are placing their weight on the forehand. You are teaching them to back off the bit. You are eliminating a good stop (anyone see Anky unable to get Salinero to stop for the final salute?). You are trying to overcome your own short-comings in training by controlling the head. 

It is not necessary. It certainly doesn't stretch anything, and if you find yourself 'needing' it at shows, then your horse isn't trained well enough.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

haha sorry for getting my bakc up guys, it's a big pet peeve of mine, people ripping into others at a comp or such for having a horse behind the vertical for a short period and screaming 'ROLKUR ROLKUR!!'. 
I don't like to have a horse deep for extended periods, and I only use it if I have to, as described above, in situations where you really do need the horse's focus or you run the risk of the situation escalating into a dangerous one. The horse is not forced down to have it's chin on its chest, I have never put a horse anywhere near that degree of lateral flexion, it's not needed. Just a few degrees behind the vertical and lengthening the neck to prevent the panicked 'emu' frame is not going to be detrimental in nay way shape or form, particuarly if the horse was trained at home to come out of this by correct work. 

A deep frame is one in which the neck is lengthened and the head is reaching more towards the ground, but with more roundness than in long and low. 9 out of 10 horses will calm down and start thinking about the job at hand rather than the distraction. 

Rolkur is forced helplessness of the horse. The rider jams its head into it's chest using force on the rein- and usually on the curb if riding in a double. The spine is them jammed, the back cannot swing and so there is a huge degree of tension throughout the horse's body, allowing the 'flashy' front legs to come, but the hind legs physically cannot come under the horse's body. 

Big difference. Deep= relaxed, loosening the back, regaining focus, attention and relaxation. Rolkur= tension, tension and inability to use the back and hind legs, and fear.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

mayfieldk said:


> Kathy, I agree that when in a life or death or very dangerous situation, you do what you have to. Not only is it safer for you, but it's safer for the horse. Not trying to argue that extreme of a point. I have ridden many race horses _and_ OTTBs, and I know how silly they can get. I was referring to the 'I put him there to get his head back' comments.
> 
> But comments like this:
> 'head behind the vertical a very little bit just to get her over her back that much more.'
> ...


Yep of course, however if youre on a youngster/greenie during it's first few outings, of course you are going to run into a bit of a problem here and there unless the horse is a saint. Particuarly with TB's, I find alot of them just lose their brains and will endanger themselves to run away from the source of pressure. As I said a few posts above, I havent put a WB deep before as they don't tend to react in that way. They have a bit of a spook, snort and maybe a few spins and bucks, but they are still thinking, their brain is ticking over and you still have some degree of control. 
I also stated above that at home if the horse reacts to a stimuli in a negative manner such as coming above the bit, clamping the jaw and trying to run, I will ALWAYS work them back to front no matter the situation (unless of course, again, the horse is getting beyond control. And ever then, I will usually go back to walk, and put the legs to work using turn on the forehand or leg yielding on small circles, until the behaviour ceases. At home, I can afford for the horse to blow up a bit if I put more pressure on him in this way, but at a competition, I don't want others to get injured more so than my horse or myself. 
Most of the blowups at home from ottb's/greenies/breakers etc. are combated simply by using leg yield, turn on the forehand or shoulder in. Hence why I like to teach every single horse I get the ride of these movements almost immediately.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

mayfieldk said:


> Kathy, I agree that when in a life or death or very dangerous situation, you do what you have to. Not only is it safer for you, but it's safer for the horse. Not trying to argue that extreme of a point. I have ridden many race horses _and_ OTTBs, and I know how silly they can get. I was referring to the 'I put him there to get his head back' comments.
> 
> But comments like this:
> 'head behind the vertical a very little bit just to get her over her back that much more.'
> ...


I have to argue a litle bit here, as after a certain degree it DOES lock up the lumbar spine, BUT asking her to go stretch down and maybe a little behind the virtical does not, and i can garantee that if done correctly.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

What is wrong with coming above the bit for a few moments? Clamping the jaw is a habit/fear/etc, not something I would fix with deep and round.

If they spook or get stupid, my first, second, and last line of defense is to circle. If you catch it soon enough, you're fine. In my opinion, you lose more steering with a horse's head down--they can use the weight against you. However, if they're just a little silly, I will most certainly invite them down for long and low. No reason to tuck their head behind the vertical--that tenses muscles they only use when grazing. Again, to me, not necessary. I agree with classical trainers in the sense that there is no gymnastic benefit to behind the vertical--I'm not saying it's cruel and rollkur and omgosh he's DYING ON THE INSIDE--I just think it's not necessary and a little backwards.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

mayfieldk said:


> Kathy, I agree that when in a life or death or very dangerous situation, you do what you have to. Not only is it safer for you, but it's safer for the horse. Not trying to argue that extreme of a point. I have ridden many race horses _and_ OTTBs, and I know how silly they can get. I was referring to the 'I put him there to get his head back' comments.
> 
> *But comments like this:*
> *'head behind the vertical a very little bit just to get her over her back that much more.'*
> ...


This I can certainly agree with. A coach I had when I first started getting the dressage bug would tell me that when the horse had a tense back, you HAVE to pull it's head down and kick because if the head is down, the back is up.
I picked up pretty **** quick that that piece of information was entirely incorrect and changed trainers asap. There are no shortcuts to getting a horse to relax, carry and swing the back. My most usefull and frequently used method of developing this, is first to develop and strengthen the back muscles using alot of hill work, and allows trail riding on a loose rein to encourage the horse to take big, free, active steps- great way to develop a walk by the way!!
From there I do hill work, and then in the arena I will use alot of long and low, moving into lateral work. Once I can establish basic laterals such as my favourite tools, leg yielding, shoulder in and turn on the forehand, I'll start demanding a little more expression and from there the back will generally come up of it's own accord. You cannot do enough transitions, changes of rein and laterall work in a session, they're just so important and essentially what is going to build up a solid contact and lovely back.


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

ridergirl23 said:


> I have to argue a litle bit here, as after a certain degree it DOES lock up the lumbar spine, BUT asking her to go stretch down and maybe a little behind the virtical does not, and i can garantee that if done correctly.


When you bring a horse behind the vertical, you are breaking the poll connection and therefore taking away what completes the frame. The reason why we bend the horse the horse at the poll, because it completes the connection of the head to the rest of the body.
But in the end, the head should be the last thing to come, and having the horse on the vertical should come after he is bending at the poll.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

mayfieldk said:


> What is wrong with coming above the bit for a few moments? Clamping the jaw is a habit/fear/etc, not something I would fix with deep and round.
> 
> If they spook or get stupid, my first, second, and last line of defense is to circle. If you catch it soon enough, you're fine. In my opinion, you lose more steering with a horse's head down--they can use the weight against you. However, if they're just a little silly, I will most certainly invite them down for long and low. No reason to tuck their head behind the vertical--that tenses muscles they only use when grazing. Again, to me, not necessary. I agree with classical trainers in the sense that there is no gymnastic benefit to behind the vertical--I'm not saying it's cruel and rollkur and omgosh he's DYING ON THE INSIDE--I just think it's not necessary and a little backwards.


She goes over the bit plenty of times, thats not why i do it, when she loses focus and is just being notty and gets tense and snobby then i say: NO, we are working. and thats how i do it, not because shes above the bit, i can get her round using my seat, i dont need reins for that, and most of the time i dont need to reins to keep her attention either


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

ridergirl23 said:


> I have to argue a litle bit here, as after a certain degree it DOES lock up the lumbar spine, BUT asking her to go stretch down and maybe a little behind the virtical does not, and i can garantee that if done correctly.


You can guarantee it? How? Because you think your horse is loose and swinging through the back? With science and diagrams and biomechanics?

Because that's how I back up _my_ statement.

The position itself _locks the lumbar spine_. It is not 'after a period of time', it is how bio mechanics work.

When I reach for my toes, it stretches my hamstrings and lower back. Not 'after a period of time'--it just _does_ because of the position I'm in.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

mayfieldk said:


> You can guarantee it? How? Because you think your horse is loose and swinging through the back? With science and diagrams and biomechanics?
> 
> Because that's how I back up _my_ statement.
> 
> ...


Then maybe were talking abotu different things because I can FEEL my horse
lets just aree to disagree


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

mayfieldk said:


> What is wrong with coming above the bit for a few moments? Clamping the jaw is a habit/fear/etc, not something I would fix with deep and round.
> 
> If they spook or get stupid, my first, second, and last line of defense is to circle. If you catch it soon enough, you're fine. In my opinion, you lose more steering with a horse's head down--they can use the weight against you. However, if they're just a little silly, I will most certainly invite them down for long and low. No reason to tuck their head behind the vertical--that tenses muscles they only use when grazing. Again, to me, not necessary. I agree with classical trainers in the sense that there is no gymnastic benefit to behind the vertical--I'm not saying it's cruel and rollkur and omgosh he's DYING ON THE INSIDE--I just think it's not necessary and a little backwards.


I do understand where you're coming from with that. I just find that when I'm on a horse that is going absolutely off on you in an area where there are many horses warming up together, putting the horse deep momentarily has always worked for me in terms of the horse getting it's brain back and it's act together. If possible, I will opt to move to a quieter area of the grounds and work on a circle and use laterals to contain the issue, however if the blowup comes totally out of the blue and you're in a crowded space, I will always opt for the most immediate course of action to reduce the risk to everyone involved in the situation. 
As I've said many times previously, I don't use it when a horse comes temporarily above the vertical to have a little look around and bit of a play/spook, only in the dangerous situation where the horse entirely looses its brain and has no desire at all to look after itself, let alone the person on top!


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Again, how do you back it up?


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Kayty said:


> I do understand where you're coming from with that. I just find that when I'm on a horse that is going absolutely off on you in an area where there are many horses warming up together, putting the horse deep momentarily has always worked for me in terms of the horse getting it's brain back and it's act together. If possible, I will opt to move to a quieter area of the grounds and work on a circle and use laterals to contain the issue, however if the blowup comes totally out of the blue and you're in a crowded space, I will always opt for the most immediate course of action to reduce the risk to everyone involved in the situation.
> As I've said many times previously, I don't use it when a horse comes temporarily above the vertical to have a little look around and bit of a play/spook, only in the dangerous situation where the horse entirely looses its brain and has no desire at all to look after itself, let alone the person on top!


Completely understandable. Safety is top priority for everyone involved!


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

mayfieldk said:


> Again, how do you back it up?


again, we are talking about two different things. that is a different 'behind the bit' from what im talking about. lets just agree to disagree.


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

I agree with you both, Kayty and Mayfield. Both ways can be correct, it depends on the horse you are riding, what works for him, the situation you're in, and other reasons. For Freddy, circling him can make the problem worse because he refuses to take his eyes and attention off of what he is spooking at. Unless he is absolutely running flat out, I can just ride deep to "back his brain up".


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

dressagexlee said:


> I agree with you both, Kayty and Mayfield. Both ways can be correct, it depends on the horse you are riding, what works for him, the situation you're in, and other reasons. For Freddy, circling him can make the problem worse because he refuses to take his eyes and attention off of what he is spooking at. Unless he is absolutely running flat out, I can just ride deep to "back his brain up".


Exactly, I guess it all just comes down to different methods working just as effectively. Some horses will settle on a circle, but many others will not. When you're talking tb's, most of the ones which I have competed will focuss 100% on the 'scarey' object, and that is that. You can't do much about it. Circle the horse and it will duck into the circle away from the object of terror on one side, then on the other side it will duck out of the circle, all the while trying to keep an eye on whatever it is thats causing it grief, and trying to get rid of the pressure on it's back that the rider is creating. 
Again, I said it before, I will only put a horse deep when I think all other, immediate, options have been exhausted. There's no time to ponder what is going to be the most correct way to fix an issue when you are heading flat out towards another horse, jaw clamped, about to launch into a series of rodeo bucks. 

I think we are on different pages of the same book here haha!


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

Yes, the book of the horses will never stop writing itself, it's up to us to choose from the millions of chapters which to read, hm?


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I'm not saying anything, but I'm just saying that as someone who rides with international clinicians, and has a coach who rides internationally, I actually am exposed to Rolkur.
It's really nice to have an idealistic view of the world and say "this is wrong". That's great. 95% of the dressage world agrees with you, the 95% that control 1% of the money and 1% of the political power.
Having threads like this is awesome, it provokes some thought, but seriously? Who are we as a collective? If anyone here actually wants to see some change, this is not going to help anything. Our very few tip top riders here in North America use Rolkur, and the EC and USDF are not going to displace our only riders with a hope of getting a medal just to support the ideal of classical dressage. The FEI is not going to shut down dressage and let the Olympic Committee see any more reason to remove it from the Olympics. Dressage is very close to being on that chopping block, and the FEI doesn't want to let it get there.
If you want change, then write to the FEI, the EC, the USDF, your local area group, etc.. and try to start some change that way.
I myself don't ride with trainers that support Rolkur, or any kind of abuse and I don't support any trainers who use this, meaning I don't buy into this Anky clothing line crap, or Isabell either. As someone with some influence in my community I try to bring in clinicians with a conscience who support correct and classical dressage training, and I try to support these people by helping to run international shows closer to them.
If we want change, we have to actually do something, not just sit at our desks and point fingers.
$0.02


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Who said anyone sitting here is just pointing fingers?

I don't buy anything from Anky/pessoa/etc. Writing to any dressage committee has no effect--they don't care. Unless you've seen Philippe Karl's letters, and the ridiculous responses from the FEI? The riders that train this way ride the flashy horses--and the flashy horses put people in the stands. Rollkur will never go away until someone proves it can be done without.

I do not train with trainers who use rollkur either and show my horses to my own standard, not some bullcrap standard with judges enamored with flashy legs, tense backs, and money.


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

I second what Mayfield says.
I do my best to ride my best for my _horses_. Do the judges see this? Not always.
Writing letters is pointless; the FEI's dressage branch is so bloody corrupted right now, I can't even describe how appalling it is.

All that I can do as one person right now is research, study, gather, and experiment. Then I can maybe change the view point of just a few more people, or just make people aware of this hell, instead of being wrapped up in ignorance and turning a blind eye.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Also, lol, what about the blue-tongue video?

The federations and committees' responses were something akin to 'LOL.'

'Fixing' the problem meant 'creating' checks and balances they already have in writing, but no one uses.


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