# all the slaughters are closed



## OGT

doesnt this mean that the horses now will be shipped farther, (Canada and Mexico) for more days with no food/ water and no USDA to monitor the handling of these poor horses. Mexico slaughters horses by slicing thru the spine in 2 places and cutting them up while alive so that they bleed out. I'm not so sure shutting down OUR own slaughter houses was such a good idea. 
What do you think??
I mean, the killer buyers are still buying at the sales and they must be doing something with these horses, I know they are not taking them home and saving them
and since the only 2 places left are out of the country I guess that means they are tortured more than they were when we had kill plants Hmmm....
kinda makes you think twice huh?


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## kristy

Yep, which is why I have never been a huge anti-slaughter fanatic. Where will all the horses meant for slaughter go now? Instead dying a horrid but quick death, they will go to useless homes with no care, food, water and die a very slow, painful death.
The issue is not slaughter its self. It is breeding and over populating with unwanted horses. Until breeders have limitations, this problem will be endless.

On a better note, what part of TN are you from? Anywhere near Johnson City?


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## OGT

*Tennessee*

Hi I am from Jamestown area on the southside of BSF and I am 8 miles from East Fork Stables and campground.


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## TxHorseMom

I agree with both of you. It is a sad thing indeed. What would have been better than shutting down the slaughter houses would have been better laws (and upholding those laws) for more humane treatment in the shipping and actual slaughtering. Unfortunately, all those "tree huggers" have done is to make more horses suffer. They are now patting themselves on the back for a job well done, and will now ignore the horses that are currently suffering.


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## Friesian Mirror

It still hasn't been banned yet as far as I know, so there's still a chance that they'll be re-opened and also, they're opening up slaughter houses on the Indian Reservations. I don't want to sound like I like slaughter, but I believe that it's necessary for the horse industry and it help's all of the unwanted horses, at least this way they wont have to suffer for however long they live with abuse, no food or water ect. Though I agree with everyone who said that it should be more humane, especially the transportation. People only want the "best" horses and all of the "okay" ones are forgotten and end up being mistreated  

TxHorseMom:
The "tree huggers" haven't "won" yet.


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## TxHorseMom

Friesian,
I sincerely hope not. I have never, and never would (will if it becomes legal again) use a slaughter house. But I to feel that it is a necessary evil, and would like to see more humane treatment.

Where did you hear that indian reservations were going to do this? Do you have any literature or references I can see? I'm not saying I don't believe you (I hope you are right!) But I am on other forums and I know they would like "proof". Thanks!


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## joseylovesrain123

here is how i feel about this whole slaughter stuff:
There are a lot of horses out there *wild, abused, happy, and/or healthy*. Because there are so many horses, if they all lived and if they all died natural deaths, and we all put them into the ground after they died, then dont you think we would run out of room for all of the dead horses. 
When you cut a spine, doesnt the victim lose feeling? If so then it's not so bad, they cant feel whats happening to them. Also, horses are slaughtered for food right? so if people eat the horses it's much better then just putting them into the ground. 
I'm not saying i'm ok with it, i find it very disturbing! It is wrong and yes it is mean, but if the horses are killed instead of beaten and abused, i find it slightly better.
Yes I am afraid of my horse being stoen, sold, and sent to slaughter, but if a skinny, old horse is sent off then the horse is just serving another porpuse for the humans.
Dont get me wrong i LOVE horses with all my hart! They are all i ever think about *honestly, just ask my friends and family*.
I have just spent so much time being sad about all of this slaughter, but i have found something worse than slaughter! It's called abuse.
Please dont yell at me for letting you know how i feel, i do love all horses and i would never ever EVER eat a horse or kill a horse.


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## Sw898989

They steal the horses so the horses can be at the slaughter house so the killer buyers can make more $$$$$$$$$...does it sound very reasonable? No. it is get out of the hand now about the slaughter house so I would like to stop it now. There are some debate about stop the import/export the horses across and from the united states...so...let us see what happen about it...actually, "dressage queens" are fight about it now so they can keep import their top-breed horses, of course. 

If horses were bought by the killer buyers...I would not say a word about it 'cause the owners do not care about what kind owners they sold to and it is their faults fot their loss. And the killer buyers do pay to get their horses.


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## kristy

Sw898989 said:


> There are some debate about stop the import/export the horses across and from the united states...so...let us see what happen about it...actually, "dressage queens" are fight about it now so they can keep import their top-breed horses, of course.


Why even say this? God knows I'm not one of the people that import horses, I don't have the money - however, I do appreciate a very well bred horse without being a "Dressage Queen". The horses are generally imported for breeding because a). The European warmbloods originate from Europe & are not found in the states and b). are used to establish a certain number of WB in the states with high standards. There are limited amounts of European Warmbloods in the states - imports are used to prevent line breeding and to use different breeding "stock" to better the breed. The states do not have a true warmblood to work with. Why criticize this of all things, really? These breeders are using very high quality horses and are generally, improving the breed (which is the object of breeding). They are not back yard breeders or those breeding less then par horses to over populate and create horses that are conformationally defective. The registries for these WB also have high standards to endorse good and selective breeding. I would much rather see someone import a high quality and well selected horse to breed then an average Joe that will create offspring that is limited and only adds on to the population.


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## JinxXx0085

I want to put in my opinion about horse slaughter. I personally wouldn't let my horse to go to slaughter however if there are people who raise horses for slaughter, fine by me. To me, slaughter is a place for those unwanted horses. I see way too many backyard bred horses around here. What if I wanted to find a purebred horse but the country is overrun with backyard bred and pushing out the quality breed out. I would like to keep horse's bloodline healthy as possible. I'm not into breeding horses myself so it's not something I can do to contribute but hope that there are people in country who have money to continue doing this.

The animal rescue would be overrun with unwanted horses and then they would have hard time to keep the horses well fed and as well have vet visits. Granted, I'm not up to current news so I don't know what the situation is like at these places at this point. Anyhow... I'm ok to keep horse slaughter as this place is going to be used as last resort provided that the horse have been given a chance to find a new home via humane society, horse rescue, and etc.


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## Sw898989

Why even say this? God knows I'm not one of the people that import horses, I don't have the money - however, I do appreciate a very well bred horse without being a "dressage Queen". The horses are generally imported for breeding because a). The European warmbloods originate from Europe & are not found in the states and b). are used to establish a certain number of wb in the states with high standards. There are limited amounts of European Warmbloods in the states - imports are used to prevent line breeding and to use different breeding "stock" to better the breed. The states do not have a true warmblood to work with. Why criticize this of all things, really? These breeders are using very high quality horses and are generally, improving the breed (which is the object of breeding). They are not back yard breeders or those breeding less then par horses to over populate and create horses that are conformationally defective. The registries for these wb also have high standards to endorse good and selective breeding. I would much rather see someone import a high quality and well selected horse to breed then an average Joe that will create offspring that is limited and only adds on to the population.[/quote]

FINALLY...thank you for this excellent answer! I have asked many dressage people and they kept said, "They are warmblood and we needs them for dressage. They are very value breed and they were the war horses and that is what dressage is for, etc and we do not have these kind of horses here in the United States, etc" So, I decided to put the dressage subject at this forum with slaughter and about the import and export too...you gave me a perfect answer, thank you so much for give me an excellent answer why dressage people want to import the horses. Sorry for the confusion at there...but I have to take the this act as I think I am right and you are wrong. Sorry for what I did :wink: but thank you for this excellent answer. I am doing the research and educate myself better so...


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## Friesian Mirror

TxHorseMom: Sorry I took so long in responding! I got the information from my mom and I dont know where she got it from. I'm trying too find proof of it right now.


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## TxHorseMom

Thanks! That would be great!


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## bubba13

No--when they cut the spine they do not lose feeling. They are paralyzed and unable to breathe, but they can still experience pain/fear/shock.

Horsemeat, sorry to say, is not feeding starving children in Africa. It is actually quite a delicacy and incurs a high price tag in Europe and Asia. So there goes the noble cause thing.

Slaughter regulations are lax in Canada, and non-existent in Mexico.

Yes, it's a neccessary evil, in the US, at least until idiotic, indiscriminate breeding continues.

Slaughter has been banned in TX, and the Supreme Court is ruling whether or not to ban it nationally, but it's definitely heading that way. The last I heard, the last remaining slaughterhouse in US (Iowa, that is) was operating under a court-ordered extension, even though it had been officially shut down. It may be closed for good by now.


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## sweetypie16

Its horrible- slaughting horses. But lets face it what else could you do with a horse that somtimes can be naughty or unwanted. People take on horses with out knowing that they require alot of work and dedication. In Australia, many horses that say buck? Don't go to slaughter yards, they are brought by the Rodeo circut. Whats your opinion on this? They get fed, looked after pretty good!!


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## NorCal Rescue Rescue

It's funny how no one thinks slaughter dogs and cats is ok. Well, I'm sure there is someone that would say it is ok, but the vast majority believe it is wrong to slaughter dogs, cats, and other pets. 

They should of shut down the border before they shut down the national plants, but sometimes things get done backwards when you're dealing with government. :wink: 

All the "unwanted" horses. Probably won't be a big deal once breeders figure out that breeding "worthless" horses no longer pays for itself. It's not like there are stallions running around (think male dogs) impregnating all the mares within a 4 mile radius.


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## TxHorseMom

What do you mean we don't think slaughtering dogs and cats are o.k. It is done all the time. Once again, it is a necessary evil. If it wasn't done, we would be overrun with them. Do I think spaying an neutering is a better option? Absolutely!!! But you're never going to get everyone to do it, so we still have the problem of pet overpopulation. Am I expected to save all the dogs and cats too? I guess the 6 dogs and 4 cats I have that are rescued aren't enough.

Personally, I would like to see more humane treatment laws regarding transportation to and the actual slaughtering of animals. ALL animals. Cows, chickens, pigs, horses, etc.


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## joseylovesrain123

TxHorseMom said:


> What do you mean we don't think slaughtering dogs and cats are o.k. It is done all the time. Once again, it is a necessary evil. If it wasn't done, we would be overrun with them. Do I think spaying an neutering is a better option? Absolutely!!! But you're never going to get everyone to do it, so we still have the problem of pet overpopulation. Am I expected to save all the dogs and cats too? I guess the 6 dogs and 4 cats I have that are rescued aren't enough.
> 
> Personally, I would like to see more humane treatment laws regarding transportation to and the actual slaughtering of animals. ALL animals. Cows, chickens, pigs, horses, etc.


i agree with you 100%


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## mell

sweetypie16 said:


> Its horrible- slaughting horses. But lets face it what else could you do with a horse that somtimes can be naughty or unwanted. People take on horses with out knowing that they require alot of work and dedication. In Australia, many horses that say buck? Don't go to slaughter yards, they are brought by the Rodeo circut. Whats your opinion on this? They get fed, looked after pretty good!!


yeh i'd rather rodeo than horse slaughter!!! although i dont now much about it, do we even have it here in Australia? cause i've never heard of it!


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## Rachluvshorses4eva

In Australia, it's in fact, illegal to eat horse meat and illegal to have a slaughter house in the country. Some slaughter houses I know, kill horses by slitting their throat open and skin them. (I however, do not know if it's true. I have just heard this!). I would much rather if the horses somehow had to be killed, I would prefer them to be shot in the head. That way, they wouldn't feel any pain or emotion, it would cause no misery and they would be dead straight away. Wouldn't you rather be killed quickly then slaughtered slowly? 

As for all the people saying that, "Slaughter houses are alright because we are getting overruled by pets..." You may not have said that exact phrase but, my idea is, if you can't look after an animal, why get it in the first place? I mean, yeah sure, they might be fun but if you cannot afford a pet, then don't buy one! Anyway, when a male, (dog) is not desexed, (In Australia anyway,) they have a more higher risk in getting cancer around that area. The same might go for the females but I don't know. 

If they are 'unwanted' horses then they should try and send them to their local, RSPCA, where they will get fed and watered and put up for adoption. Or they should sell it for free or try and just find some sort of home for them. 

If people breed animals, (or horses as someone said before) for slaughtering, I think they should be more then ashamed of themselves! Those people breed horses for slaughtering, is like just saying, "Those horses were born to die so I can make money."
Now, to me, I think it is weak, shameful, selfish, just plain cruel and words I can't even describe! Yes, some horses do get abused, but normally they are rescued by the local RSPCA. If horses do get abused and are not rescued then I rather them being shot in the head then be sent to a slaughter house. 

When horses get slaughtered, they get sent to Europe so they can eat the horse meat.

When someone said, when a horse dies, we have to burry their bodies underground and if we keep doing that there will be no more room. Well, horses do rot into the ground an do not stay like they are alive for ever!

I am totally against slaughtering and I hope, one day, all the slaughter houses in the world could be shut down and the horses could be sent to an shelter or loving home. You might be thinking that shelters 'put the animals down' when they haven't found a home for them. But do they kill the animals slowly? No, they do it quick so the animals feel no pain.


Of anything I said just then, does anyone agree?


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## Rachluvshorses4eva

And just so everybody knows, I do have proof on how they die because I have pictures. If you still do not believe me I can show them, but you have to say.


Thanks.


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## TxHorseMom

No I do NOT agree at all. The rescues are getting very full. There is only so much space and $$ for all of these unwanted horses. Where are they supposed to go? I certainly don't want my tax dollars spent on just keeping these horses alive. There are documented cases of horses being just let out of their pastures to roam the streets. (and I do mean streets. We got one that the Highway patrol picked up and couldn't find the owner. We got him at the AUCTION because there was no more room at the spca. There are horses starving because people don't have the money to take care of them and have no where to take them.
The rescues have to be "pickier" about what horses they take because they have to find them new homes if they can rescue any more. Did you know that there were 80,000 to 100,000 horses slaughtered in the USA every year? How many shelters and "loving homes" can afford "pasture pets"? And that is every year!!! in 5 years there will be aprox one half MILLION excess horses.

I do agree with you on one point though, I feel that if people can't afford pets then they shouldn't have them. BUT, how are we supposed to get around that? You can't change stupid.

I do agree that there needs to be better slaughter laws regarding the transport and the actual slaughtering of horses (and all animals actually) That is what I wish would happen.

And as for breeding horses for slaughter. What is the difference between horses and cows, or sheep or goats or pigs? They are bred for slaughter. Should they be ashamed of themselves too? Because horses are "pretty" they shouldn't be slaughtered?

Now, before you think I am this heartless person, let me tell you that I would NEVER personally send my horses to slaughter. When the time comes for them to go, they will be put down gently and buried on our land. BUT, just because *I* am able to do that doesn't mean that others have that option. I am trying to be realistic. And in the _real world_, sad things need to happen.

I have personally rescued over 20 horses in the past few years. Some I have kept personally, others I have had them vetted, fed, (re)trained and found new homes for. (I would break even, or a small loss) With the market the way it is, I am not able to do that anymore. I can't afford to spend hundreds of $$ on food and veterinary care, spend hours and hours on training then rehome for $500 or less! Most of these horses are unpapered (or you can't get the papers) and that's all they are going for because the market is so glutted. And theres others out there feeling the same pinch and unable to rescue as many, or even any horses anymore. The "rescue" places just can't do it anymore. Now where are these horses supposed to go?

Do I wish slaughterhouses were unnecessary? You bet I do. I am not FOR slaughter. If anyone can find a better way (that is realistic) please let your government know so a solution can be found!!


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## Rachluvshorses4eva

Ok, thanks. But, I still would rather the horse's owner to shoot them in the head then be sent to the slaughter house. And yes, I know pigs, cows, goats and many other animals then horses I bred for slaughtering, but the owners who do breed all of those animals, (including horses, goats, cows, pigs, etc.) should be ashamed of themselves. I am not saying just horses shouldn't be bred to be slaughtered, I'm saying the whole animals. And I still stand by my point that if you cannot send them to loving homes, shelters or anywhere nice, then they should put them down with ease, so the animals feel no pain. Yes, it is reality, and we might not ever be able to stop it, but we can try and make things change. If the shelters only have so much $$ then people with EXTRA cash could donate. I also still stand by my point that if you cannot afford an animal or animals don't buy them!!!!
:wink:


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## moonflame994

ok i live in Kentucky (Howdy nighbor!!!) and every body in town is sayin` that the horse markets down because they closed down the houses an` because of the hay shortage also i wouldent be worried `cause people cant afford to ship horses to Candada an` Mexico so less horses are bein` killed an` also most people are buying large amounts a` horses so they can train and sell them for a higher price SO DONT WORRY :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## TxHorseMom

If you think that there is nothing to worry about, you are just burying your head in the sand. Now that horse slaughter is banned in the USA they are being shipped to Canada and Mexico. YES it IS happening. There was a front page article in the Houston Chronicle yesterday if anyone cares to find out what is happening. **WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENTS****

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5175642.html

I wish the time and money had been spent to better the laws in the USA instead of making a much worse fate.

I don't know how those people can sleep at night. (I mean those who were for the ban.)


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## KANSAS_TWISTER

moon where did you get your facts???? that no one can aford to ship them so why worry? go to youtube and type in horse abuse...( might be too graphic for some YOUNG eyes)pick any one that you see, over 90% of any of those clips you will see a slaughter house in the back round. 
i agree with txhorsemom 100% times 10


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## bubba13

And to add to everything TxHorseMom said, which I totally agree with, what do you think we're supposed to do with the bodies after they've been "humanely euthanized?" Of course the bodies don't just stay there, they rot. Rotting flesh pollutes the groudwater bad enough as it is, which of course comes right back and infects animals and people with potentially life-threatening diseases. It's even worse if they have been killed with a "humane" life-ending chemical. This also leaks into the groundwater, and if it killed the horse, guess what? It's not exactly beneficial to those drinking the water. If horses have been chemically euthanized, the bodies can't be rendered for meat, even for animal consumption. So you've got 1000 lbs of dead flesh--you can't render it, you can't haul it to the landfill, it's nearly impossible to burn, and it's illegal to bury for the reasons stated above. That's just something to think about.

And, for the record, in the US, horses are killed by a captive bolt gun to the skull, which for all intents and purposes is like being shot in the head. Instantly fatal in 95+% of cases. In Mexico, on the other hand, the spinal cord is severed with a knife, leaving the horse paralyzed and unable to breathe but still able to feel pain as it is hoisted up in the air by chains on its hind legs. Its throat is then cut and it is left to bleed out. And that's where American horses are now going--on a much longer, hotter, cramped ride to a slaughterhouse with no regulations and a disgusting method of killing. Shipment to Mexico for slaughter has increased something like 400 or 600% since US slaughter has been shut down. Good job, animal rights activists!


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## xkatex

I havent the time to read over every post here, but I would like to put my two-cents in. The realtity of the matter is, as horse people, the thought of no horse slaughter is a dream, except it is necassary. Now that the US plants are closed, the horses have a much worse fate when shipped to Mexico. Mexico is alot less humane in the slaughter of their horses, then the US is. Honestly I think we dug the horses a deeper and wider hole to get out of when closing the US plants. 

I live in Canada and as far as i know of we have 2 slaughter houses, one in Alberta and one in Quebec. Im in the harness racing industry and Ive seen many horses be "shipped out" And personally id rather them end up in Canada or the US rather then Mexico.

The only way to completely abolish slaughter is for people be become more horse savvy. Dont breed just because you think foals are cute think of the consequences. If breeders became more responsible, and trainers/owners etc werent dead set on getting their $60,000 dressage prospect and were willing to settle for a $100 PMU foal for example, it would help. But honestly it doesnt look like this will happen for a long long time, and until then we better hope the US re-opens atleast one of their houses. Personally I think the horses meet a worse fate going to Mexico and the fact is slaughter will always be a necassay means on population control. And the way i see it, if we have to do it, better make it first class if you know what I mean,


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## alli0707

horses were being sent to slaughter in canada and mexico before the houses were shut down in america anyways, so I look at it as this helping save more horses.


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## GallopAway

xkatex said:


> I havent the time to read over every post here, but I would like to put my two-cents in. The realtity of the matter is, as horse people, the thought of no horse slaughter is a dream, except it is necassary. Now that the US plants are closed, the horses have a much worse fate when shipped to Mexico. Mexico is alot less humane in the slaughter of their horses, then the US is. Honestly I think we dug the horses a deeper and wider hole to get out of when closing the US plants.
> 
> I live in Canada and as far as i know of we have 2 slaughter houses, one in Alberta and one in Quebec. Im in the harness racing industry and Ive seen many horses be "shipped out" And personally id rather them end up in Canada or the US rather then Mexico.
> 
> The only way to completely abolish slaughter is for people be become more horse savvy. Dont breed just because you think foals are cute think of the consequences. If breeders became more responsible, and trainers/owners etc werent dead set on getting their $60,000 dressage prospect and were willing to settle for a $100 PMU foal for example, it would help. But honestly it doesnt look like this will happen for a long long time, and until then we better hope the US re-opens atleast one of their houses. Personally I think the horses meet a worse fate going to Mexico and the fact is slaughter will always be a necassay means on population control. And the way i see it, if we have to do it, better make it first class if you know what I mean,


Agreed. Well put.

Why do we have slaughter in the first place? What's the root of the problem and why don't we stop the root of the problem? Why do people insisting on breeding "non breeding quality" horses? [Not putting them down. I love my mare to DEATH, but I KNOW she's not breeding quality.] Even perfectly healthy, useful, good-quality horses are being slaughtered, which is just sad. Any horse being slaughtered is just sad.

If we didn't have an over-population of horses, we might not need slaughter. As wonderful as the horse industry is, there is an ugly side.




> horses were being sent to slaughter in canada and mexico before the houses were shut down in america anyways, so I look at it as this helping save more horses.


And now horses that would've been shipped to a US slaughter house might be going to Mexico and being more in-humanely treated and killed in a more grusome way. Guess it's one of those "danged-if-you-do-danged-if-you-don't" situations, in a way.


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## alli0707

> And now horses that would've been shipped to a US slaughter house might be going to Mexico and being more in-humanely treated and killed in a more grusome way. Guess it's one of those "danged-if-you-do-danged-if-you-don't" situations, in a way.


But not as many horses are being slaughtered now.The number of horses that are sent to slaughter have dropped a crazy percentage since the ones in the US have been closed.Horses have always been sent to canada and mexico.Now it's just less.

I see people say all the time that slaughter is necessary because it will lead to neglect. But, The vast majority of horses that currently wind up at slaughterhouses are in good condition (92.3 percent according to the USDA Guidelines for Handling and Transporting Equines to Slaughter) and will not be neglected or abandoned. The remaining 7 to 8 percent who may need rescue will either be placed at one of the more than 400 horse rescue and sanctuary facilities in the United States or will simply be humanely euthanized.

In California, where horse slaughter was banned in 1998, there has been no corresponding rise in cruelty and neglect cases either, though horse theft dropped 34 percent after the ban. Allowing one's horse to starve is not an option—state anti-cruelty laws prohibit such neglect.


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## GallopAway

alli0707 said:


> And now horses that would've been shipped to a US slaughter house might be going to Mexico and being more in-humanely treated and killed in a more grusome way. Guess it's one of those "danged-if-you-do-danged-if-you-don't" situations, in a way.
> 
> 
> 
> But not as many horses are being slaughtered now.The number of horses that are sent to slaughter have dropped a crazy percentage since the ones in the US have been closed.Horses have always been sent to canada and mexico.Now it's just less.
> 
> I see people say all the time that slaughter is necessary because it will lead to neglect. But, The vast majority of horses that currently wind up at slaughterhouses are in good condition (92.3 percent according to the USDA Guidelines for Handling and Transporting Equines to Slaughter) and will not be neglected or abandoned. The remaining 7 to 8 percent who may need rescue will either be placed at one of the more than *400 horse rescue and sanctuary facilities in the United States or will simply be humanely euthanized*.
> 
> *In California, where horse slaughter was banned in 1998, there has been no corresponding rise in cruelty and neglect cases either, though horse theft dropped 34 percent after the ban.* Allowing one's horse to starve is not an option—state anti-cruelty laws prohibit such neglect.
Click to expand...

I agree that horses should be humanely put-down or sent to rescues, sanctuaries, etc. That's so much better than slaughtering.
But with millions of horses in the USA, I don't think all of them can be lucky enough to go to someplace that's willing to care for them, or be humely put-down.

And what about the entire nation? Abuse/neglect has dropped for California, but has it dropped for the entire nation?

I dunno. lol. Both of my horses were neglected when we got them and it broke my heart. I can't imagine finding a horse severly abused and neglected.

Ugh, horse slaughter is just a touchy, confusing, sad subject.


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## alli0707

> I agree that horses should be humanely put-down or sent to rescues, sanctuaries, etc. That's so much better than slaughtering.
> But with millions of horses in the USA, I don't think all of them can be lucky enough to go to someplace that's willing to care for them, or be humely put-down.
> 
> And what about the entire nation? Abuse/neglect has dropped for California, but has it dropped for the entire nation?
> 
> I dunno. lol. Both of my horses were neglected when we got them and it broke my heart. I can't imagine fiding a horse severly abused and neglected.
> 
> Ugh, horse slaughter is just a touchy, confusing, sad subject.


Over 50% of those millions of horses have loving good homes.

and the whole thing with Cali is to show that neglect and abuse won't change and it hasn't, anywhere.Slaughter results in neglect.


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## GallopAway

I'm still kind of "on the fence" about it.
I can see the points of both sides.


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## kim_angel

i'd rather see them humanely put down then what happens to them at the slaughter house.


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## alli0707

kim_angel said:


> i'd rather see them humanely put down then what happens to them at the slaughter house.


exactly.Why do they have to be so brutal about it?Why not just euthanize them? People in Asia and Europe don't need their meat.


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## bubba13

Actually, it might help to research your facts before making bold claims like, "But not as many horses are being slaughtered now.The number of horses that are sent to slaughter have dropped a crazy percentage since the ones in the US have been closed.Horses have always been sent to canada and mexico.Now it's just less. "

Um, excuse me?

In reality, the number of horses transported to Mexico to be slaughtered has increased by *300-500%* and the number going to Canada has increased by 50%. These numbers don't include the horses that were shipped across the border "for recreation" or "for breeding"--but were still slaughtered, and the shippers just lied to avoid cruelty laws. And that's only for 2007, when the slaughterhouses in the US were still operating for part of the year. The number of horses being killed outside the country has increased *drastically*.

And, if you're going to use California as an example, horses were just hauled outside the state, then sold for slaughter. There are ways to get around every law.

And, by the way, I got these statistics from the AVMA website.


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## bubba13

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/unwanted_horses_faq.asp

http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jan08/x080115a.asp


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## alli0707

bubba13 said:


> Actually, it might help to research your facts before making bold claims like, "But not as many horses are being slaughtered now.The number of horses that are sent to slaughter have dropped a crazy percentage since the ones in the US have been closed.Horses have always been sent to canada and mexico.Now it's just less. "
> 
> Um, excuse me?
> 
> In reality, the number of horses transported to Mexico to be slaughtered has increased by *300-500%* and the number going to Canada has increased by 50%. These numbers don't include the horses that were shipped across the border "for recreation" or "for breeding"--but were still slaughtered, and the shippers just lied to avoid cruelty laws. And that's only for 2007, when the slaughterhouses in the US were still operating for part of the year. The number of horses being killed outside the country has increased *drastically*.
> 
> And, if you're going to use California as an example, horses were just hauled outside the state, then sold for slaughter. There are ways to get around every law.
> 
> And, by the way, I got these statistics from the AVMA website.


If you look at statistics starting from around 1985, horses slaughtered has gone down.

Anyways, It has nothing to do with how many horses are slaughtered. It's the fact that horses are stil being slaughtered, even more inhumane then before.


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## RockinTheBit07

Well a lot of people are saying that if you euthanize a horse and burrying them would take up too much space. What about cremation??? Most people i know cremate their animals when they die, because where are they going to burry them? 

I dont know how i feel about slaughter.... I dont want to see any horse in pain or to suffer. Isnt there a way to just euthanize them (not shooting them in the head) then slaughter tehm or w/e?? 

I mean i agree that something has to be done about the excess amount of unwanted horses. WE humans are selfish, animals were here on earth before us. And what do we do? We shove them out of the way and leave them no where to be free. I wish we could make a special reservation for horses that are unwanted, let them be free....If only dreams could come true :roll:


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## bubba13

Let's see...128,000 horses were slaughtered in 1985, and 105,000 in 2006....doesn't seem like a significant difference to me. And during that whole time period it was fluxuating up and down all over the place from 47,000 to 348,000. There is absolutely nothing there to analyze for general trends.

Oh, yeah, only 29,000 were killed in 2007--but that's NOT counting the ones going to Mexico and Canada!


----------



## alli0707

bubba13 said:


> Let's see...128,000 horses were slaughtered in 1985, and 105,000 in 2006....doesn't seem like a significant difference to me. And during that whole time period it was fluxuating up and down all over the place from 47,000 to 348,000. There is absolutely nothing there to analyze for general trends.
> 
> Oh, yeah, only 29,000 were killed in 2007--but that's NOT counting the ones going to Mexico and Canada!


I'm not even trying to argue about how many are sent to slaughter. Well I kind of am. But not as much as I'm trying to stress the issue that since the US plants have been closed, horses sent to slaughter is not as much.

And yes they do go up and down but no year has gone over 2007.


----------



## alli0707

RockinTheBit07 said:


> Well a lot of people are saying that if you euthanize a horse and burrying them would take up too much space. What about cremation??? Most people i know cremate their animals when they die, because where are they going to burry them?
> 
> I dont know how i feel about slaughter.... I dont want to see any horse in pain or to suffer. Isnt there a way to just euthanize them (not shooting them in the head) then slaughter tehm or w/e??
> 
> I mean i agree that something has to be done about the excess amount of unwanted horses. WE humans are selfish, animals were here on earth before us. And what do we do? We shove them out of the way and leave them no where to be free. I wish we could make a special reservation for horses that are unwanted, let them be free....If only dreams could come true :roll:


I like how you said that animals were on this earth before us. That's a very easy way to put it, but I don't have that kind of common sense.I'm glad not to be one of those selfish ones.


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## bubba13

alli0707 said:


> But not as much as I'm trying to stress the issue that since the US plants have been closed, horses sent to slaughter is not as much.
> 
> And yes they do go up and down but no year has gone over 2007.


First part: That's exactly what I'm trying to tell you *is not the case*. Just as many horses are being slaughtered as before--only not all in the US, as they're being shipped out. And even if slaughter was decreasing--which it's not--what does that mean? There are still tens of thousands (or more) of unwanted, abused, and abandoned horses.

Second part: Whu....?


----------



## alli0707

bubba13 said:


> alli0707 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But not as much as I'm trying to stress the issue that since the US plants have been closed, horses sent to slaughter is not as much.
> 
> And yes they do go up and down but no year has gone over 2007.
> 
> 
> 
> First part: That's exactly what I'm trying to tell you *is not the case*. Just as many horses are being slaughtered as before--only not all in the US, as they're being shipped out. And even if slaughter was decreasing--which it's not--what does that mean? There are still tens of thousands (or more) of unwanted, abused, and abandoned horses.
Click to expand...

yeah that if people loved there horses enough they would come up with some way of getting the money to put them down humanely.

And again.Horses that are being slaughtered have gone down.Sure they were going up and down for awhile but every other year or so they have gone down more and more. Just wait till they show statistics for 2008.It's going to be lower then 2007. Because it costs more money to get those horses transported to mexico and canada.


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## bubba13

You are missing the point entirely. There will be 0 horses slaughtered in 2008--because horse slaughter is now ILLEGAL. Why will it cost more to ship to Canada or Mexico? Answer: It won't. What if they make it illegal to ship slaughter-bound horses across the border? Answer: People will lie and say horses are going to be sold for riding, but slaughter them anyway once they're in Mexico and it's not against the law. Or we'll have to face the overpopulation crisis in the US and round up all the horses like dogs and cats at the pound and shoot them, like they used to do the Mustangs....or let them starve in backyards like they're already doing.


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## alli0707

bubba13 said:


> You are missing the point entirely. There will be 0 horses slaughtered in 2008--because horse slaughter is now ILLEGAL. Why will it cost more to ship to Canada or Mexico? Answer: It won't. What if they make it illegal to ship slaughter-bound horses across the border? Answer: People will lie and say horses are going to be sold for riding, but slaughter them anyway once they're in Mexico and it's not against the law. Or we'll have to face the overpopulation crisis in the US and round up all the horses like dogs and cats at the pound and shoot them, like they used to do the Mustangs....or let them starve in backyards like they're already doing.


Cancel out alot of land that people are using for farming and put horses on it. Cut down costs on food and medication.And I mean the slaughter statistics for canada and mexico, not the US. People need to open their eyes and realize the costs to take care of a horse are REDICULOUS.And no matter what there will be animal cruelty but atleast it won't be legal to slaughter an animal inhumanely.Especially an animal that is the same as dogs and cats.How come they don't have slaughter houses for cats and dogs in the US?I'm done arguing with you.It's pointless and I just put you on my SELFISH PEOPLE list.


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## bubba13

They don't slaughter dogs and cats in the US because they _*euthanize them in pounds*_.

Stop using farming land? Then what will said horses (and people) eat? Air? Magic apples that don't grow on trees? How are they going to cut down food cost when there isn't enough land to begin with, plus apparently now we're giving it all to the horsies?

People *eat* horses in Mexico. Gasp! And they don't have animal cruelty laws. Gasp! So why would slaughter go down in Mexico?

And of course you're done arguing or so you say) because you realize that you're unsupported "facts" and made-up "statistics" can't hold up.


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## alli0707

bubba13 said:


> They don't slaughter dogs and cats in the US because they _*euthanize them in pounds*_.
> 
> Stop using farming land? Then what will said horses (and people) eat? Air? Magic apples that don't grow on trees? How are they going to cut down food cost when there isn't enough land to begin with, plus apparently now we're giving it all to the horsies?
> 
> People *eat* horses in Mexico. Gasp! And they don't have animal cruelty laws. Gasp! So why would slaughter go down in Mexico?
> 
> And of course you're done arguing or so you say) because you realize that you're unsupported "facts" and made-up "statistics" can't hold up.


lol made up.Everything I've said so far is not made up. And they don't eat horses in mexico legally.And they do have animal cruelty laws. and I'm not talking about the grass in farms. I'm talking about all the corn we have in this country. There is so much of it that can be cut down and grass can be planted. Have you ever been to the south and central states? They have sooooooooooo much corn and vegetables we don't need. But then again I'm just dreaming on all that. and I'm not done arguing with you because I realize that I'm wrong.I am 100% right and I'm not going to argue with a pro horse slaughter being. I know I can't change your mind so why keep going? Now just stop and move on to someone that will give up their views for yours.


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## bubba13

I'm not going to stop until *you* stop making things up.

They don't eat horses legally in Mexico? Really?

http://ats-sea.agr.gc.ca/latin/3659_e.htm

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/mexico/stories/MYSA093007.01A.horseslaughter.3496288.html

Do I need to post more to back me up, or is that enough? Because there's plenty more available.

Mexico has animal cruelty laws, but they're very lax and they aren't enforced. Mexico has a corrupt government, and animals don't matter. Horse tripping, for example, is a perfectly legal rodeo event in Mexico. Read the second link above in its entirety for information on how well those cruelty laws are enforced.

The "excess" corn is being used to feed people and animals (haven't you ever seen corn in horse feed) as well as to produce ethanol to limit our dependence on fossil fuels as well as decrease pollution, hence, global warming. Don't like ethanol? Doesn't matter--it's coming anyway.

http://ncga.com/WorldOfCorn/2006/environmental.asp


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## alli0707

bubba13 said:


> I'm not going to stop until *you* stop making things up.
> 
> They don't eat horses legally in Mexico? Really?
> 
> http://ats-sea.agr.gc.ca/latin/3659_e.htm
> 
> http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/mexico/stories/MYSA093007.01A.horseslaughter.3496288.html
> 
> Do I need to post more to back me up, or is that enough? Because there's plenty more available.
> 
> Mexico has animal cruelty laws, but they're very lax and they aren't enforced. Mexico has a corrupt government, and animals don't matter. Horse tripping, for example, is a perfectly legal rodeo event in Mexico. Read the second link above in its entirety for information on how well those cruelty laws are enforced.
> 
> The "excess" corn is being used to feed people and animals (haven't you ever seen corn in horse feed) as well as to produce ethanol to limit our dependence on fossil fuels as well as decrease pollution, hence, global warming. Don't like ethanol? Doesn't matter--it's coming anyway.
> 
> http://ncga.com/WorldOfCorn/2006/environmental.asp


nowhere on those sites does it say it's legal for people in mexico to consume horse meat.It says the horses are slaughtered there but not sold in restaurants and stores.


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## bubba13

That's fine--I told you I had more.



> Horse meat, labeled as such, is sold at five butcher shops in Juárez, including one behind the Cuauhtemoc market down town, and, Terrazas said, at the cafeterias at maquila plants. The lower price of horse meat -- about 35 pesos (about $3.10) a kilo compared with 60 pesos (about $5.40) for beef -- allows subcontractors to bid lower for cafeteria contracts, Terrazas said.





> There are two other types of slaughter facilities in Mexico: municipal plants that process horses for local consumption and so-called clandestine facilities. "They're not regulated plants," Dr. Lenz said. "They're local butcher shops ... and that's where the greatest concern about how the horses are being handled and euthanized is." He believes it's this sort of operation featured in the HSUS video.


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## alli0707

bubba13 said:


> That's fine--I told you I had more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Horse meat, labeled as such, is sold at five butcher shops in Juárez, including one behind the Cuauhtemoc market down town, and, Terrazas said, at the cafeterias at maquila plants. The lower price of horse meat -- about 35 pesos (about $3.10) a kilo compared with 60 pesos (about $5.40) for beef -- allows subcontractors to bid lower for cafeteria contracts, Terrazas said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are two other types of slaughter facilities in Mexico: municipal plants that process horses for local consumption and so-called clandestine facilities. "They're not regulated plants," Dr. Lenz said. "They're local butcher shops ... and that's where the greatest concern about how the horses are being handled and euthanized is." He believes it's this sort of operation featured in the HSUS video.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

It says meat is sold in supermarkets in Mexico but nowhere does it say 'horse meat'.

They don't sell it in public(in restaurants and stores) The butcher shop they are referring to is the slaughter house. They sell their meat to europe and asia for human consumption.


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## bubba13

Yes, they do. "Local butcher shops" aren't exporting to Europe. Asian and European countries have their own slaughterhouses in Mexico, just like they did in the US (Does "Cavel" ring any bells?).

Or how about this little comment? "There are two other types of slaughter facilities in Mexico: municipal plants that process horses for local consumption...."

It's not the primary meat in the Mexican diet, but it is eaten there, especially in poorer areas, and to say that it's "illegal" is absurd.



> The slaughterhouse used to kill only about 20 horses a month, but after Mexico closed its border to U.S. imports of cattle, citing the fear of mad cow disease, local meat distributors struggled to make up for the loss, Luis Manuel Terrazas, the slaughterhouse's director, said.
> 
> These days, his 60 workers put to death about 1,400 horses a month, just under 30 percent of all the animals killed. About 70 percent of the horses come from U.S. ranches.
> 
> "People in Mexico are not exactly used to eating horse meat. Some of them are afraid. But it is very popular in Europe and it is a very healthy meat, not as fat as beef," Terrazas said.


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## alli0707

bubba13 said:


> Yes, they do. "Local butcher shops" aren't exporting to Europe. Asian and European countries have their own slaughterhouses in Mexico, just like they did in the US (Does "Cavel" ring any bells?).
> 
> Or how about this little comment? "There are two other types of slaughter facilities in Mexico: municipal plants that process horses for local consumption...."
> 
> It's not the primary meat in the Mexican diet, but it is eaten there, especially in poorer areas, and to say that it's "illegal" is absurd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The slaughterhouse used to kill only about 20 horses a month, but after Mexico closed its border to U.S. imports of cattle, citing the fear of mad cow disease, local meat distributors struggled to make up for the loss, Luis Manuel Terrazas, the slaughterhouse's director, said.
> 
> These days, his 60 workers put to death about 1,400 horses a month, just under 30 percent of all the animals killed. About 70 percent of the horses come from U.S. ranches.
> 
> "People in Mexico are not exactly used to eating horse meat. Some of them are afraid. But it is very popular in Europe and it is a very healthy meat, not as fat as beef," Terrazas said.
Click to expand...

see, I can't argue with that.I mean I would if I couldn't find the site that says that, but I did. I still don't think it's right.If this is suppose to convince me that horse slaughter is right, think again.


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## .Delete.

> And they don't eat horses in mexico legally


You need to get your facts straight before you state something like that. Because you just edmitted to be proved wrong.


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## alli0707

.Delete. said:


> And they don't eat horses in mexico legally
> 
> 
> 
> You need to get your facts straight before you state something like that. Because you just edmitted to be proved wrong.
Click to expand...

well duh, I said that because I couldn't find anything on it.Usually if you can't find information on something, it doesn't exist.but I finally did and to the person I'm arguing with, I'm sorry for saying you were wrong.I'm not trying to be on your guys' bad side I'm just irritated.


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## drop_your_reins

I haven't really read this whole thread, but I'll say why I'm against horse slaughter. 

Ethically, it's wrong. Horses are companion animals, you don't see other companion animals getting slaughtered (dogs, cats, ferrets, etc.). How fair is it to take a loyal animal whose done nothing but try to please you all his life and as soon as he gets too old to carry weight- you put him on a cramped trailer with no food or water bound for the slaughter house where a bolt will be shot into his brain.. and instead of dying immediately, he'll bleed to death. (Braindead, if he's lucky.. But if the bolt doesn't hit the right spot, perhaps not) 

For health reasons, NO ONE should be allowed to consume horse. Why? Most of the horses sent to slaughter were once pets/companions. If they were well cared for, they had 10+ vaccines a year, they were exposed to fly spray, bute, betadine, banamine, minerals and supplements.. Not to mention many processed horse feed brands use animal products (a beacon for the spread of disease in humans.. since the processing of animal feeds is highly unregulated.. [the dog food scare?]).. Also take into account that many race horse owners drug their horses, as well as many other competition horses (steroids?).. Before they closed, American slaughterhouses had to label all exported meat as "NOT INTENDED FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION.." and the EU banned the importation of American horsemeat a few years ago (because it was so unsafe to consume and because the slaughter houses were highly unregulated). Vets also medicate horses and consumption animals differently. Horses aren't intended for food, so its no isssue what types of medications they receive. Animals meant for food don't receive medicines that could potentially harm a human consumer. 

Taking all of this and putting it aside, think of the cleanliness issues. Horse slaughterhouses were never regulated. Why? Americans don't eat horse meat. So do you think the workers clean the machines if they don't have to? Do you think there is horse blood caked to the machines from years ago? Would you even want your dog to eat processed horse meat if you knew how disease ridden the places were? 

That said, I would still be against slaughterhouses if they cleaned up their act, became humane and safe to consume. First, horses are meant to be companions not livestock. America would be outraged if we started a dog-slaughtering house and sold the meat to China, its unnecessary. (no matter how overpopulated the dog population is)

Prevention? Dogs are overpopulated because owners don't take time to neuter them. Horses are overpopulated because people breed them CARELESSLY. 

Educate people about horses, the previous slaughter statistics, etc. Uneducated people breed horses, then find they don't have the time or patience needed to train them and sell them to Joe Shmo for $100. That's not fair to the horse or the breeder, so denounce breeding for the sake of breeding. If you have the time and the money, and you have a GOAL, then breeding is okay. 

I would also urge all of the major breeding farms to breed less. Instead of 20 foals a year, why not 15? Especially really quality foals, it will bring the price of your crop up (if there is a demand for it) and you'll have more time and money to spend on the horses because there are less of them. Not only that but you'll be aiding in slowing the growth of the horse population. 

calculate your moves. You wouldn't bring a child into this world if you couldn't afford its longterm care. Or if you didn't think you would have time for it or would be able to love it. Breeding a foal is the same burden of responsibility. If you don't spend a lot of time with them, training them, getting them used to people, they become WILD. If their wild, no trainer in their right minds is going to want to have to start from scratch with a 5 year old (who doesn't cross tie, barely leads, rears at the sight of clippers, etc.). 

IDK just some food for thought.


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## RockinTheBit07

I agree with you. I never thought about it that way. I wonder then if the slaughter houses in Mexico are even worse than the ones we had, because then their meat is even more infected then ours right? How could people eat meat that is not healthy for them? They could get seriously sick. For the most part i dont eat meat because i am afraid of stuff like mad cow disease and getting sick from eating meat that is not cooked properly. And well i just dont really like meat that much lol.


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## Harlee rides horses

I, for one, believe in slaughter. I believe in slaughter because all the horses who are unhealthy, underweight, malnutritioned, abused, and any other inconvenience that cannot be saved, treated, or healed, should most definitely be put to sleep. But not all of their owners or caretakers can afford or would even pay to have their horse put to rest and slaughter is the only solution to their suffering lives. I think that anyone who would keep a horse that is completely unable to be treated back to health or any stable living condition is out of their minds and truthfully cruel because that horse suffers each day. Now for all of you who say that slaughter is bad because of how they kill the horse, well does it really matter how they kill the horse as long as its under 5 or so minutes, I mean they are going to be dead anyways? Personally I think that shooting the horse should be the whole solution of slaughter because it's quick and easy and painless. Now I don't exactly agree with the way that they are killing horses but I would rather see people stabbing the horse to its death rather then stabbing it for sheer enjoyment. Now it is those people that abuse horses, abandon them, starve them, and any other sort of cruelty, that won't pay to euthanize a horse and it is those horses that deserve to be put down and slaughtered if it comes down to slaughter as a last resort.
Not only should the horses that are unable to be living, but horses that aren't wanted at all. Horses are beginning to get over populated. I believe that some of the horses that get slaughtered shouldn't because they are healthy, and very nice horses. Now to all of you that have saved a horse from slaughter, kudos to you. But I still believe in slaughter.


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## drop_your_reins

There are ways to reduce the horse population WITHOUT slaughter.

Let me do a quick visual breakdown of a horse who is sent to slaughter's journey. Imagine this is your pet, perhaps you can no longer afford to take care of him. He is already old and weak, possibly malnurished. First, you send him to an auction house, maybe you give him a carrot as a send off gift. Your thinking, at least I can say goodbye before he reaches greener pastures. (And hey, you make a buck doing it, right?!). A slaughter auctioner bids on him and wins for 10 cents/pound, or whatever the going rate is. IDEK. If he's lucky he goes straight to the slaughter house. if not he will be loaded and unloaded onto the livestock trailer several times, as the auctioner travels from auction to auction looking for more cheap horse meat. Whether he's on the trailer or in the roundpen waiting to be loaded back on. He will NOT have food or water for days. The carrot you gave him would be his last bit of food on earth. Maybe he dies from exhaustion before he gets the slaughterhouse. (in which case his death was NOT under five minutes, but over the course of a couple days). Presuming he survives this journey, and the double decker trailer carrying him to his end doesn't flip over on a major highway (happened a couple months ago, check it out).. Then he goes through the painful slaughterhouse. US law (before they banned slaughter) was kind enough to require that all horses be rendered unconscious before they were slaughtered. So a huge rod gets sent into your horse's brain at a couple hundred meters/second to permanently brain damage him. This method is not foolproof, and more often than not the rod can miss and the horse is still fully aware of what is happening to him as he is lifted by a rear leg to have his throat sliced. Whether he is unconscious or not, he is still alive as his throat is sliced, and is left hanging there by a rear leg until he bleeds to death. Oh another lovely way he could die is by puntilla knife, which paralyzes him so he lay on the ground twitching until his lungs give way and he suffocates. That's probably more for the rowdy type (they generally do it to sever their spinal cords).. 

If you don't believe me here is actual footage from the process
http://www.sharkonline.org/?P=0000000528
(scroll down, you'll see the videos) 
I watched a couple but they are too disturbing, I can't bring myself to watch anymore. Watch them before you defend horse slaughter at all.


The human population is overcrowded, would you EVER think of doing that to another person? 

A couple years ago I found a website where the horseslaughter workers described some of their most horrific moments. I can't seem to find it now, but I'll keep looking.


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## drop_your_reins

I think the puntilla knife is mostly done in mexico? I'm not sure.


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## drop_your_reins

Also, this website can explain and discredit most proslaughter ideals better than I.
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/features/horseslaughter-134.shtml

I would also like to point out that EUTHANASIA is not that expensive, and I'm sure if you asked someone in the horse business to lend you money to euthanize your old and dying horse, rather than send him to slaughter.. MANY people would happily pitch in, rather than see your loyal friend suffer.


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## .Delete.

drop_your_reins. I feel your being over dramatic. You said there are other ways to rid of horses besides slaugher. Well then do explain. They wont put breeding reg. on horses. The TB racing industry wont allow that, and you have to think of the Amish. Huge huge huge huge crops of Tb's are being created all over the country. There is too much money involved.


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## kim_angel

Sadly people's pets are going to slaughter. 
Let me tell you a story that recently happened...

A person advertised a horse free to a good home

A person came along, told a complete BS story pretending he was going to give him a good home... pretending he was taking the horse as a pet. In reality, the person taking the horse is a Kill Buyer and he lied to get a free horse. He made his way from up north to whatever route he travels to get more horses on his way to TX. When the original owner found this out, he tried to get his horse back...

When the KB finally arrived in TX at the feedlot days later, the people who were waiting there to re-claim this horse, who's name was Prancer, were sad to discover the horse dead on the trailer.

Whenever I see people offering a free horse in ads, I contact them to tell them to be careful because KB's are out there looking for your free animals.


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## .Delete.

Its sad. But it happens. You can't stop it. People are people and people are evil. Thats just how it is. Does that make it right? NO. But like i said people are people. Please for the love of god don't be all like "Well still it was wrong, or they should have" Save it for someone who doesn't understand that no matter what. People are going to do cruel things.


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## bubba13

drop_your_reins:

A genuine thank-you for stating your thought in an organized, understandable, rational manner. I respect your opinion for this reason, however, I do doubt some of the evidence you are calling fact. May I?



drop_your_reins said:


> I haven't really read this whole thread, but I'll say why I'm against horse slaughter.
> 
> Ethically, it's wrong. Horses are companion animals, you don't see other companion animals getting slaughtered (dogs, cats, ferrets, etc.). How fair is it to take a loyal animal whose done nothing but try to please you all his life and as soon as he gets too old to carry weight- you put him on a cramped trailer with no food or water bound for the slaughter house where a bolt will be shot into his brain.. and instead of dying immediately, he'll bleed to death. (Braindead, if he's lucky.. But if the bolt doesn't hit the right spot, perhaps not)  Of course it's not fair, no one's arguing wit h that, and I doubt anyone is really pro-slaughter--just anti-alternative (starving ponies, Mexican kill plants, etc.). However, unless it has changed really recently (and I'm not aware of that), horses are still classified as livestock, not companion animals, in the US. They may be prettier or more romantic than cattle or pigs, but really, what is the difference? They're all living things who deserve to be treated humanely with respect, right? And, when used correctly, the penetrating captive bolt gun is instantly and painlessly lethal in something like 98% of cases and a humane means of euthanasia, according to the AVMA. This is the method of slaughter that was used in American plants. I have literature that can show that this is a valid means of "kind" killing that I can pull up if necessary (or just look in the other slaughter thread that got locked). It does not "just stun" the horse--it kills it. Now the method of slaughter used in Mexico (the severing of the spinal cord with a sharp knife) only paralyzes the horse. It can still feel pain (but cannot breathe) as it is being butchered alive. I do agree with you that transport to slaughterhouses is inhumane, but it's much worse now that they're going to Mexico for hundreds of miles more, in extreme heat, and with no trailering regulations (double-deckers, etc.).
> 
> For health reasons, NO ONE should be allowed to consume horse. Why? Most of the horses sent to slaughter were once pets/companions. If they were well cared for, they had 10+ vaccines a year, they were exposed to fly spray, bute, betadine, banamine, minerals and supplements.. Not to mention many processed horse feed brands use animal products (a beacon for the spread of disease in humans.. since the processing of animal feeds is highly unregulated.. [the dog food scare?]).. Also take into account that many race horse owners drug their horses, as well as many other competition horses (steroids?)..
> 
> 
> Before they closed, American slaughterhouses had to label all exported meat as "NOT INTENDED FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION.." and the EU banned the importation of American horsemeat a few years ago (because it was so unsafe to consume and because the slaughter houses were highly unregulated).  Is this true? Can you give me some information to support this? Because I have researched this topic fairly thoroughly and have never heard this before. The last plant to close (Cavel International, I think it was called) was owned by a Dutch (?) company, and they were still actively transporting meat to Holland for human consumption up until the last horse was killed. I believe they were selling horsemeat to Japan and European countries, as well. I do know that the slaughtering process was monitered by veterinarians and the USDA to ensure that it was both humane and clean (safe for people). Actually, during the beef scare, large amounts of horsemeat were shipped to Mexico for human consumption because it was deemed safer than potentially-contaminated beef. The process, however, is not monitered for animal rights or human safety south o' the border.
> 
> Vets also medicate horses and consumption animals differently. Horses aren't intended for food, so its no isssue what types of medications they receive. Animals meant for food don't receive medicines that could potentially harm a human consumer.  This is true. Many commercial horse dewormers say something along the lines of, "Not for horses or ponies intended for human consumption." However, as I said before, there was a quarantine period prior to slaughtering.
> 
> Taking all of this and putting it aside, think of the cleanliness issues. Horse slaughterhouses were never regulated. Why? Americans don't eat horse meat. So do you think the workers clean the machines if they don't have to? Do you think there is horse blood caked to the machines from years ago? Would you even want your dog to eat processed horse meat if you knew how disease ridden the places were?  See my above comments. The slaughter plants were actually highly regulated by both the USDA and their foreign owners and kept safe and clean.
> 
> That said, I would still be against slaughterhouses if they cleaned up their act, became humane and safe to consume. First, horses are meant to be companions not livestock. America would be outraged if we started a dog-slaughtering house and sold the meat to China, its unnecessary. (no matter how overpopulated the dog population is)
> 
> Prevention? Dogs are overpopulated because owners don't take time to neuter them. Horses are overpopulated because people breed them CARELESSLY.  People also intentionally breed dogs carelessly, I'm afraid. Ever heard of Schnozapoodlepugins, or whatever those 'designer breeds' are called? But an emphatic YES!!! to the overbreeding problem! That's the very reason that I classify slaughter as a 'necessary evil'--because people are idiots and breed thousands of unwanted, crappy horses, then don't ensure they get placed in loving homes. See http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com
> 
> Educate people about horses, the previous slaughter statistics, etc. Uneducated people breed horses, then find they don't have the time or patience needed to train them and sell them to Joe Shmo for $100. That's not fair to the horse or the breeder, so denounce breeding for the sake of breeding. If you have the time and the money, and you have a GOAL, then breeding is okay.  YES!!! But even if you have the time, money, and goals--be honest with yourself. Is your mare/stallion *really *breeding quality?
> 
> I would also urge all of the major breeding farms to breed less. Instead of 20 foals a year, why not 15? Especially really quality foals, it will bring the price of your crop up (if there is a demand for it) and you'll have more time and money to spend on the horses because there are less of them. Not only that but you'll be aiding in slowing the growth of the horse population.  Or why not 5 or superior quality?
> 
> calculate your moves. You wouldn't bring a child into this world if you couldn't afford its longterm care. Or if you didn't think you would have time for it or would be able to love it. Breeding a foal is the same burden of responsibility. If you don't spend a lot of time with them, training them, getting them used to people, they become WILD. If their wild, no trainer in their right minds is going to want to have to start from scratch with a 5 year old (who doesn't cross tie, barely leads, rears at the sight of clippers, etc.).  AMEN!
> 
> IDK just some food for thought.


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## bubba13

I read the website you posted "debunking" slaughter myths. It's biased, but yes, I'll admit that my sources are biased too. The information is mostly factual, with the slant toward their side ("preying" on horses?). 

Yes, in theory, they're correct. But they (and all of the other opponents of horse slaughter in America) have suggested no alternatives. What are we supposed to do with the current population of surplus horses (and sadly unavoidable products of future overbreeding) besides ship 'em off to Mexico?


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## .Delete.

Bubba i find that i quite like the way you think


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## kim_angel

Does euthanasia by injection cause the horse meat to be un-safe for human consumption?


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## bubba13

Unfortunately, yes. And unsafe for animal consumption as well (no dogs or zoo animals benefiting, then). Also, it makes it unsafe to bury (even more so than before) because the chemicals can leak into the groundwater and/or pollute the environment.


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## drop_your_reins

Delete, I am certainly not being overdramatic, would you like me to tone it down for you? 

What do you think happens?
Wonderful killer-buyer buys little pony, sticks him on a wonderful insulated slant load trailer with two or three other little ponies with hay and carrots for all. He takes them straight to their destination, stopping if necessary to fill up on hay and offer them a drink of water. When the ponies get to to the "stairway to heaven" as its affectionately called, the killer buyers gently coax them into their final resting place, as they somberly fall into a permanent deep sleep, as the killer soothes them and holds his head in their lap?

What happens to the horses is terrible! I wasn't being overdramatic, I was being factual or at least referring to sources I believed factual. I did misinterpret one of my facts, but the rest I am certainly able to be backed up. If you can't handle the anti-slaughter argument, then you should give me an argument equally credible, instead of telling me I was being overdramatic. Its called persuasion, I'll admit I did the beginning for dramatic effect, but it was to make a point and keep you interested. If I rambled on about "My poor pony I would never send him to slaughter I love my pony" you wouldn't take me seriously. THAT is what happens (happened) to slaughterbound horses! 

Bubba13, your remarks are in quotes, my response follows. 


> Of course it's not fair, no one's arguing wit h that, and I doubt anyone is really pro-slaughter--just anti-alternative (starving ponies, Mexican kill plants, etc.). However, unless it has changed really recently (and I'm not aware of that), horses are still classified as livestock, not companion animals, in the US. They may be prettier or more romantic than cattle or pigs, but really, what is the difference? They're all living things who deserve to be treated humanely with respect, right? And, when used correctly, the penetrating captive bolt gun is instantly and painlessly lethal in something like 98% of cases and a humane means of euthanasia, according to the AVMA. This is the method of slaughter that was used in American plants. I have literature that can show that this is a valid means of "kind" killing that I can pull up if necessary (or just look in the other slaughter thread that got locked). It does not "just stun" the horse--it kills it. Now the method of slaughter used in Mexico (the severing of the spinal cord with a sharp knife) only paralyzes the horse. It can still feel pain (but cannot breathe) as it is being butchered alive. I do agree with you that transport to slaughterhouses is inhumane, but it's much worse now that they're going to Mexico for hundreds of miles more, in extreme heat, and with no trailering regulations (double-deckers, etc.).


Regardless of what their classified on paper, they are pets all the same. If the state governments really intended them as "livestock" as the food sense of the word, then vets in the same manner and wouldn't receieve as wide a spectrum of medical trreatment/medication. Some states do consider them recreation animals (california? maybe). Not to mention the definition of livestock is "Domestic animals, such as cattle or horses, raised for home use or for profit, especially on a farm." (there are several others, but this best illustrates my point- the others are more or less variations of this definition.. anyway link is here http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/livestock) None of the definitions include "Intended for food" although one might presume so with sheep, pigs, chickens, etc. also included in the list. With the exception of pigs, each of those other species have uses aside from directly killing them for food. (Wool, eggs, milk, riding [horses]).. 

The bolting is not a death sentence, and the rate is hardly 98%. 
"Once they arrive, their suffering intensifies—undercover footage obtained by The Humane Society of the United States demonstrates that fully conscious horses are shackled and hoisted by the rear leg and have their throats slit. Because horses are skittish by nature, it is particularly difficult to align them correctly and ensure the captive bolt stun gun renders them unconscious." (Source: http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_aff..._protection/horse_slaughter_common_myths.html)
*For valid proof that you can WATCH with your own eyes, please refer to the videos on this website. (It must be common enough to video tape)*
http://www.sharkonline.org/?P=0000000528


The US law (as well as the EU's law I believe) was that the animal must be stunned/rendered unconscious before being slaughtered and not necessarily instantly killed. They are NOT humane, and while I would be LESS against them if they were humane I would still be anti horse slaughter (but I wouldn't nearly be in the fit about as I am now, I'm glad its done with in the US) .. Here are the violation codes for Cavel International:
http://www.saplonline.org/pdf/inspectionreports.pdf
(Overcrowding, horses being beaten into the stunning area, horses being chased in order to be caught [for an hour and twenty minutes], employees causing "undue excitement." improperly trained individuals, the first citation- a horse caught with his hoof in a piece of equipment- ALIVE.) 

Livestock receipts (horses dead on arrival, crippled, bruised)
http://www.saplonline.org/horses_violations.htm
http://www.saplonline.org/images/violations/07082004Musick.jpg 
(46 "Crippled")
http://www.saplonline.org/images/violations/07192004Musick.jpg
(11 DOA
12 Crippled)
You can see the rest at the first website.

Horseslaughter itself has dramatically declined in the US (before the ban) and there is no evidence at that time of the number of horses being shipped to mexico or canada for slaughter increasing. (source http://www.saplonline.org/horses_ahspafaq.htm)

The Act provides that slaughterbound horses may not be shipped outside the US. While, I'm sure some will slip through the cracks, and in time the killer buyers will find loopholes or stealthy ways to sneak horses across the borders.. It still greatly minimizes the amount being shipped across the borders... So the number of horses now considered "slaughterbound" should be nonexistant, but is probably somewhere close. (Its not that difficult for a border patrol man to see a doubledecker with scared horses overcrowded and say their transport is denied.) Although I will admit, it may not be enforced as it should be.. It is a start. 




> Is this true? Can you give me some information to support this? Because I have researched this topic fairly thoroughly and have never heard this before. The last plant to close (Cavel International, I think it was called) was owned by a Dutch (?) company, and they were still actively transporting meat to Holland for human consumption up until the last horse was killed. I believe they were selling horsemeat to Japan and European countries, as well. I do know that the slaughtering process was monitered by veterinarians and the USDA to ensure that it was both humane and clean (safe for people). Actually, during the beef scare, large amounts of horsemeat were shipped to Mexico for human consumption because it was deemed safer than potentially-contaminated beef. The process, however, is not monitered for animal rights or human safety south o' the border.


My source for the EU ban, I think was incorrect or else I misinterpreted it, so I am not one for spreading false information and I apologize. The source was (http://www.hoofpac.com/press/bsehoofandmouth.html) It says the EU "Called" for a ban on horsemeat. From other sources I read the bill never passed (this was in 2000 or therein). Still the fact that they were considering it, because of unsafe conditions in American slaughterhouses is something to consider. (There is a BBC news article from 2001-2 stating the EU's consideration, I can dig it up if you like) 

If you see one of my links above, the check-ins by veterinarians (or other qualifiable people) often yielded negative results with plenty of citations (some horrific... recall the colt [still alive] with his hoof stuck in machinary?).. Here's the link again in case you missed it the first time.
http://www.saplonline.org/pdf/inspectionreports.pdf



> See my above comments. The slaughter plants were actually highly regulated by both the USDA and their foreign owners and kept safe and clean.


(lol) see MY comments above (/lol) 



> People also intentionally breed dogs carelessly, I'm afraid. Ever heard of Schnozapoodlepugins, or whatever those 'designer breeds' are called? But an emphatic YES!!! to the overbreeding problem! That's the very reason that I classify slaughter as a 'necessary evil'--because people are idiots and breed thousands of unwanted, crappy horses, then don't ensure they get placed in loving homes. See http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com


I read FOHTD occaisionally, and I'm glad someone comments on the insanity that is the horse world. My reason for mentioning the dog problem is that horses are a more controllable problem (although the argument side of me says that the dog problem is very controllable with two little snips.) because they are more easily seperated and usually have no desire to roam past the confines of their pasture (well tell that to MY gelding, he certainly likes to escape if he can.. but I don't have to worry about him impregnating any mares). So the reason why horses are so overpopulated is really a silly one- HUMAN IGNORANCE.. but solving one ignorant problem with ignorance (horse slaughter) is just plain.. well IGNORANT. We can start with education and build up from there. 



> YES!!! But even if you have the time, money, and goals--be honest with yourself. Is your mare/stallion really breeding quality?


We finally reach an agreement! I've seen plenty of ugly stallions with horrible conformations. Yet if I were to take their owners aside and say "Listen, You NEED TO GELD THIS THING IMMEDIATELY" well, on this forum, I would get reprimanded. In real life, I would get slapped. But still, one way to limit the horse population is to keep only the good stallions. Starting by educating people of the proper conformations, what to look for in movement, what to do before you breed, etc. (this forum is a good outlet!) 



> Or why not 5 or superior quality?


LOL well I was speaking of those huge farms, I was going to be optimistic with cutting it down to 15... But if you want to shoot for the moon, be my guest. LOL 


Sorry about the length, I wanted to make sure it was thorough. I would prefer lengthy thoroughness to choppy and unfounded. (Not to mention in debate it's always polite to address the opposing's sides points with understanding, or they'll think they've won! lol that was a little joke mixed with sarcasm.. Trying to keep it friendly here, as I'm convicted in my beliefs, but not out to make enemies, and I've talked to plenty of you [and agreed with] on certain topics, so I don't want you to think that it is personal. =])


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## drop_your_reins

Also, Zoos have been switching over to a beef-based diet for their large cats because it is healthier than horse meat. (I can get the source for you if you want, but I hope you realize by now I am credible and do not make up things. lol)

And horsemeat was never directly used in dog food, although I'm sure byproducts were/are (stomach, liver, etc.)


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## Rachluvshorses4eva

Guys, I just need to say this once more. Do you really think that you would like a horse, or any animal of that matter, to die slowly? I am sure you would all rather them being killed quickly. Slaughter Houses ARE mean.


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## kim_angel

Rachluvshorses4eva said:


> Guys, I just need to say this once more. Do you really think that you would like a horse, or any animal of that matter, to die slowly? I am sure you would all rather them being killed quickly. Slaughter Houses ARE mean.


I dont want to see animals starve to death or die slowly. Not at all. Heck, its why I feed a colony of stray cats and take them to get spayed as I can afford the extra $$'s and they arent even mine. 

However, I dont want to see them die in a frightened cruel manner either. Which, I believe is how they die in Slaughter Houses.


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## .Delete.

There is nothing nice about slaughter. But it has to be done.


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## alli0707

.Delete. said:


> There is nothing nice about slaughter. But it has to be done.


I disagree, but I'm done arguing with you about it.


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## bubba13

> Regardless of what their classified on paper, they are pets all the same. If the state governments really intended them as "livestock" as the food sense of the word, then vets in the same manner and wouldn't receieve as wide a spectrum of medical trreatment/medication. Some states do consider them recreation animals (california? maybe). Not to mention the definition of livestock is "Domestic animals, such as cattle or horses, raised for home use or for profit, especially on a farm." (there are several others, but this best illustrates my point- the others are more or less variations of this definition.. anyway link is here http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/livestock) None of the definitions include "Intended for food" although one might presume so with sheep, pigs, chickens, etc. also included in the list. With the exception of pigs, each of those other species have uses aside from directly killing them for food. (Wool, eggs, milk, riding [horses])..
> 
> The bolting is not a death sentence, and the rate is hardly 98%.
> "Once they arrive, their suffering intensifies—undercover footage obtained by The Humane Society of the United States demonstrates that fully conscious horses are shackled and hoisted by the rear leg and have their throats slit. Because horses are skittish by nature, it is particularly difficult to align them correctly and ensure the captive bolt stun gun renders them unconscious." (Source: http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_aff..._protection/horse_slaughter_common_myths.html)
> For valid proof that you can WATCH with your own eyes, please refer to the videos on this website. (It must be common enough to video tape)
> http://www.sharkonline.org/?P=0000000528
> 
> 
> The US law (as well as the EU's law I believe) was that the animal must be stunned/rendered unconscious before being slaughtered and not necessarily instantly killed. They are NOT humane, and while I would be LESS against them if they were humane I would still be anti horse slaughter (but I wouldn't nearly be in the fit about as I am now, I'm glad its done with in the US) .. Here are the violation codes for Cavel International:
> http://www.saplonline.org/pdf/inspectionreports.pdf
> (Overcrowding, horses being beaten into the stunning area, horses being chased in order to be caught [for an hour and twenty minutes], employees causing "undue excitement." improperly trained individuals, the first citation- a horse caught with his hoof in a piece of equipment- ALIVE.)
> 
> Livestock receipts (horses dead on arrival, crippled, bruised)
> http://www.saplonline.org/horses_violations.htm
> http://www.saplonline.org/images/violations/07082004Musick.jpg
> (46 "Crippled")
> http://www.saplonline.org/images/violations/07192004Musick.jpg
> (11 DOA
> 12 Crippled)
> You can see the rest at the first website.
> 
> Horseslaughter itself has dramatically declined in the US (before the ban) and there is no evidence at that time of the number of horses being shipped to mexico or canada for slaughter increasing. (source http://www.saplonline.org/horses_ahspafaq.htm)
> 
> The Act provides that slaughterbound horses may not be shipped outside the US. While, I'm sure some will slip through the cracks, and in time the killer buyers will find loopholes or stealthy ways to sneak horses across the borders.. It still greatly minimizes the amount being shipped across the borders... So the number of horses now considered "slaughterbound" should be nonexistant, but is probably somewhere close. (Its not that difficult for a border patrol man to see a doubledecker with scared horses overcrowded and say their transport is denied.) Although I will admit, it may not be enforced as it should be.. It is a start.


I think we can agree that we're both reading--and believing--biased information. My "truth" says that the slaughtering process is more or less humane, your "truth" says that it's brutal and horrifying and cruel, and the real *TRUTH* is probably somewhere in the middle. I don't put much stock in what PETA or SHARK says, however, the video evidence (which I can't watch--blame the Mac) does verify that these atrocities occurs, although they are probably not nearly as common as these organizations would have us believe. Honestly, I don't know why I'm trying to prove that slaughtering is nice....it's not. It's awful. I'm content to leave it at that if you are.

Now, horse slaughter has *not* declined in the US recently. The numbers have actually been all over the place, with nothing to analyze as for general trends. Nearly the same number were killed in 1985 as 2006, and in between then the number first tripled, then dropped dramatically, then rose again. In 2007, of course, very few horses were killed, but that was because slaughter was banned.

http://www.manesandtailsorganization.org/stats.htm

And as for shipment to Mexico, it is on the rise--and big time:

http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jan08/x080115a.asp

This is an interesting read:

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/unwanted_horses_faq.asp

Quote from the above article: _The AVMA's primary concern is that these horses will still be transported for slaughter, but will not be treated humanely. Recent reports of inhumane practices in Mexico underscore this concern. According to the USDA Market News Service (Las Cruces, NM), 1345 horses were transported across the US border and into Mexico for slaughter during the week of September 29, 2007. During the previous week, 1111 horses were transported across the border. For the current year, 31086 horses have crossed the border into Mexico for slaughter. Compared to last year, when 6391 horses crossed the border, this year's number represents a one-year increase of 486%. This number will decrease if the AHSPA passes, but only because transporters will identify another purpose as their reason for transporting horses across the border. _

This is what I WISH had been done:

1. Better regulate the humane transport to slaughterhouses.
2. Re-think the slaughtering process. Remember that work Temple Grandin did for cattle and making the killing process less stressful for them? Why not try that with horses? http://www.grandin.com/
3. Close the borders to transport for slaughter--and verify that horses being shipped out of the country are not going to be killed.
4. If necessary, institute a federal equine aid program, associated with the Humane Society.
5. Educate the public about equine overpopulation and proper breeding and care of horses.

Now, all of the above is a moot point. We're going in circles (all of us), and I think it's time to break the chain and start over. Horse slaughter is banned, for better or for worse, and like it or not, it's not coming back to the US.

When you said earlier how "people are also overpopulated, but you wouldn't slaughter them," you're right--you wouldn't slaughter them, but you DO let them starve. It's called poverty and homelessness, and it's a worldwide phenomenon. The same thing is currently happening to the unwanted horses who aren't being shipped to Mexico--they're being turned loose, or starving to death, or being abused/neglected.

Now, my challenge to you:

What do we do to reduce the equine population, without slaughtering them or shipping them to Mexico? How do we ensure they are being treated humanely? How do we eliminate overbreeding? What do we do with unwanted horses, whose owners can't or won't euthanize them?


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## .Delete.

I can tell you right now. They don't have the answer to that. Some Anit-Slaughter activists can't see past the word "Slaughter" and they automatically think its horrible and wrong.


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## alli0707

.Delete. said:


> I can tell you right now. They don't have the answer to that. Some Anit-Slaughter activists can't see past the word "Slaughter" and they automatically think its horrible and wrong.


LOOK AT WHAT THEY DO TO THEM!even the slaughter plants in the US were sometimes inhumane.It's very sick and wrong!


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## drop_your_reins

> I can tell you right now. They don't have the answer to that. Some Anit-Slaughter activists can't see past the word "Slaughter" and they automatically think its horrible and wrong.


I do have an answer, I can't type it right now because it will involve thought. I don't think the idea of slaughter is horrible, I'm not a vegetarian.. I eat beef, veal, chicken, etc. However it is farm raised (at least to my knowledge, my dad buys a lot of it..) I'm sure some of the meat has been through a slaughter house, but my dad generally doesn't like to buy slaughter meat (unsanitary conditions).. I've said this before, I would be LESS against the slaughter system if it were done humanely. Actually if it were 100% humane, foolproof in terms of receiving the appropriate horses, etc. I might be indifferent. I would never engage in it, because IMO horses are pets/companions, just as dogs, cats, etc. are. We currently do not have dog slaughter houses (for food), the same for cats.

Eating animals for food is not horrible and wrong, torturing the animals instead of killing them kindly, humanely IS wrong. It is also inhumane to eat meat that has knowingly been contaminated with chemicals (I mentioned this in prior arguments, but dewormers, vaccines, etc.) that can put humans at risk. (even if the meat is being fed to animals, like dogs.. there is still a risk for humans for disease, by living in close quarters with a diseased animal) 

So I would appreciate it if you didn't automatically jump to answer for me, there are actually plenty of thoughtful (if optimistic) ways that can be implemented to reduce the horse population. Actually, the horse industry will more or less be forced to comply with many of them since they no longer have a choice.


I will have an answer for you, Bubba13, but I can't type it up right now. (too much time/effort) I'll try to respond to you tonight or tomorrow night, as I'm off to train my filly. =]


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## jazzyrider

as a mod i would like to say that my instincts at this point is to lock this thread. therefore i am going to lock it. its heading down the same path as the previous thread on slaughter that was locked as it ended up in constant bickering and going round in circles. i also dont believe that some of our younger members should be viewing some of the links that have been added to support peoples arguments.

if the administrator finds it necessary the thread will be unlocked but for now i am locking it


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