# Would this TB mare suit eventing?



## OTTBLover

Just wanting some critique on my TB mare. I specifically want to know if her conformation is suited to jumping? 
At the moment I am retraining her for dressage, and hope to start jump training with her in the next month or so. She has been off the track for a few months now.
I'm going out to see her at lunch so I will get some confo shots of her legs..


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## OTTBLover

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OTTBLover

Argh - having issues posting more photos from my phone..

Let me try again!


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## blue eyed pony

I see a horse that is herring gutted, straight through the stifle and hock, and maybe a little ewe-necked. The ewe neck may improve with correct work but hind-end angles will not. This limits her scope somewhat.

Combined with a shoulder that is more upright than I would like, the fact that she is posty behind makes me think that she would not make the higher levels.

Also, a herring gut will limit her stamina. All that being said, would I buy her? Probably not. Would I ride her? In a heartbeat, she looks like a sweet mare.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel

You know I have been told so many times that my horse can't do this and that.. it's silly. That's like saying a short person can't run in a marathon cause they don't have long legs.

Sure there may be some preferences behind it.. but I'd say try it.. and if she doesn't love it then try something else 

Everyone tells me my horse would be a perfect jumper cause of his large strong hind, but is he? Nah.. we just piddle around in the arena and on the trails. 

You know your horse, and you should always give it a go despite what it may or may not have.


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## OTTBLover

blue eyed pony said:


> I see a horse that is herring gutted, straight through the stifle and hock, and maybe a little ewe-necked. The ewe neck may improve with correct work but hind-end angles will not. This limits her scope somewhat.
> 
> Combined with a shoulder that is more upright than I would like, the fact that she is posty behind makes me think that she would not make the higher levels.
> 
> Also, a herring gut will limit her stamina. All that being said, would I buy her? Probably not. Would I ride her? In a heartbeat, she looks like a sweet mare.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


May I ask what is 'herring gutted'? I've never heard that term before?:shock:


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## blue eyed pony

^ horses with the right conformation FOR THEIR JOB will have a distinct advantage over those that are not built right FOR THEIR JOB. Of course there is the occasional horse that excels despite its conformation, but will it stay sound long-term? Unlikely.

This mare does not have a strong hind. She is too straight in the stifles and hocks to have the physical scope to jump or event at a high level. HOWEVER, that does not mean that she cannot excel in the lower levels. If she has the mind and the heart for it, she will be amazing - at the lower levels. I have never seen a horse that is this straight behind competing in high-level jumping and eventing. As much as the heart and mind have to do with performance, conformation does limit or encourage performance. It DOES depend on how a horse is built as to how they do in a specific discipline.

This mare does not have desirable conformation for a showjumper or eventer. That IS the bottom line. She might have all the heart in the world, but heart/spirit/whatever you want to call it can only make up for so much.

By the way, herring-gut is a serious fault, as it limits heart and lung room and therefore will limit stamina. THAT is the whole and sole reason why I would not buy this mare as an eventer or showjumper. I think I would have her in a heartbeat as a show hack, dressage horse, or trail horse, but anything that requires stamina will be harder for her than for a horse without the fault.

YES, racehorses often appear herring-gutted, to a degree, but rarely this much unless it IS a conformational fault.


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## blue eyed pony

She has good depth of girth right behind her elbow but it sharply decreases in a line that is slanted upwards. A horse should ideally have an almost horizontal line for the first 2/3 to 3/4 of its barrel before it starts to slant upwards. This is for lung room.

Here is an example of a horse without a herring gut:









And here is a horse that displays this fault:









Note, they both have other faults, particularly the grey, but the grey was the best example of a not-herring-gutted horse that I could find. Please do not publicly critique these horses, they are not mine and the photos are not mine either (found on google images). Thanks 

Hope this helps.


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## OTTBLover

Thanks for the replies - pretty much what I thought - though I had not heard of the term herring gut before, but looking at those pictures I can see what you mean.

For the record I don't expect to go 4* on her - I haven't jumped xc since the end of 2007 when I sold my competetive horses and had kids! I'm looking at getting back into the low level stuff - maybe 1* if I'm brave enough and Lady shows enough talent...

And if she doesn't like jumping? - Well, I will just do some low level dressage on her - she has beautiful movement


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## blue eyed pony

Depending on how tall she is, if she has the spirit for jumping she could well reach 1*. It's not that big, not when you compare it to 4* at least! THOSE jumps are scary.

You may have some difficulty finding a jumping saddle that will fit her properly, looking at her back and wither again. She looks quite straight-backed and that wither is pretty big. I'm in a very similar situation, but I don't really have to worry about Monty's wither. At the moment I have a dressage saddle that fits him great and I'm in the middle of looking for a jumping saddle. I'd be happy to share the kinds I'm considering through PM if you want


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## ponyjocky

if i could mold a horse with my own hands, to be my dream horse. It would be YOUR'S with a thicker neck.

I think she is going to be an amazing jumper and show horse. So beautiful.


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## OTTBLover

ponyjocky said:


> if i could mold a horse with my own hands, to be my dream horse. It would be YOUR'S with a thicker neck.
> 
> I think she is going to be an amazing jumper and show horse. So beautiful.


 Oh wow!  Thank you so much! I absolutely love her to bits  Its nice to know I'm not the only one who thinks she is beautiful....


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## OTTBLover

Ok, so I took some more photos today - if I can get my stupid phone to hurry up and email them to my computer, I'll post them!

So in regards to her hocks being a little straight - can this be counter-acted by good angles/lengths in her hip/hind quarters? When she walks she always over tracks by at least 15cms, so it seems that her hind leg movement is not that affected?

Edited to add some photos - sorry for the shadows, its really hard to get decent photos in winter - the angle of the sun is all wrong! Also I tried to get her to stand up square, but as soon as I'd step back to take the photo she would move!

Oh, and I have one more photo of her front legs to come - its somewhere in cyber space at the moment... :-D


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## OTTBLover

Here is the last photo...


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## OTTBLover

Anyone else willing to critique?


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## blue eyed pony

all the angles in the hindquarter must be taken into account, so a good hip will take up some of the slack. You may find that her hocks become arthritic when she is older so some management may be necessary. I have a friend who uses natural remedies to manage her horses' arthritis - I could find out what they are for you if you like.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maura

I am mostly in agreement with blue-eyed pony. 

She does appear to have good feet and good pastern angles. Good clean front legs, good width of chest. I do not think the angle of her hock is problematic, I think it's the straight stifles that are the culprit. Otherwise the angles in her hind end are adequate. What this translates to in practical terms is a horse you'll have to take care to keep fit, as otherwise she'll be prone to locking or slipping stifles. 

Her shoulder is okay, not ideal - combined with the almost equal lengths of forearm and cannon, I would not expect her to show safe, but not spectacular form over fences.

Anything over training level dressage is going to be a challenge for her; she just isn't built to go round.

I was willing to cut her some slack on the herring gutted, assuming she was racing fit, but in your later photos when she has let down and put some weight on, it is still apparrent. For the vast majority of horses, it's not a critical flaw. For race horses and upper level event horses, it's a concern. If you're eventing her at the lower levels and condition her properly, it shouldn't be a problem. 

If you like her and she's willing and eager to please, she could be successful at eventing or jumpers up to a certain level, say 3'6"ish. 

Her confo flaws worry me more from a long term soundness perspective than an ability perspective - she's probably athletic enough to do anything you want her to do within reason.


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## Allison Finch

I agree with the conformation critiques. The haunch is a bit weak. the straightness may impact the fluidity of the overall movement.

The "herring" gut simply means she is very narrow through the waist. It *could* be an indication of limited lung reserve (small lung capacity).

The issues listed by the previous posters could have some effect on her ability to compete at the higher levels.......BUT.....

I have seen many horses with poorer conformation than hers compete at the very highest levels in eventing. I remember the "horse of the year" one year who had a butt neck, a club foot and post hind legs so straight that he almost looked deformed, if you looked closely. Yet, he consistently won at advanced.

It is as much a matter of the horse's heart than anything else. A horse with a strong heart and desire to please can overcome many obstacles. Would I openly seek a horse with that horse's conformation? No. However, if a horse like this found its way under my saddle and had the heart to go on...I would welcome it.


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## OTTBLover

Allison Finch said:


> I agree with the conformation critiques. The haunch is a bit weak. the straightness may impact the fluidity of the overall movement.
> 
> The "herring" gut simply means she is very narrow through the waist. It *could* be an indication of limited lung reserve (small lung capacity).
> 
> The issues listed by the previous posters could have some effect on her ability to compete at the higher levels.......BUT.....
> 
> I have seen many horses with poorer conformation than hers compete at the very highest levels in eventing. I remember the "horse of the year" one year who had a butt neck, a club foot and post hind legs so straight that he almost looked deformed, if you looked closely. Yet, he consistently won at advanced.
> 
> It is as much a matter of the horse's heart than anything else. A horse with a strong heart and desire to please can overcome many obstacles. Would I openly seek a horse with that horse's conformation? No. However, if a horse like this found its way under my saddle and had the heart to go on...I would welcome it.


Thanks Allison - I was starting to regret posting this thread! 

At the end of the day I can handle her conformation faults. I'm not going to stop trying to achieve my dream of eventing her. Who knows where we could end up?? 

If she shows no promise, talent or heart for eventing I will probably sell her on to a loving home 

And then I will take on board all that has been said here, and put that in place when it comes to buying my next OTTB.

Thanks for all the critiques btw. Even if they do sting a little sometimes!


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## OTTBLover

Sorry Maura - just saw your reply. Thanks for your wonderful critique as well 

On a side note - I'm glad you think she has gained some weight. I thought she had, and I txt some photos to a friend of mine, and said she didn't see it! I thought I must have been imagining it haha


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## Allison Finch

Good decision. I have had horses sent to me who were stunning lookers with every advantage great conformation can give. However, they lacked the desire to do the job and were found lacking.If they have no heart, there is little you can do. Luckily, this is not too common for me.

I would start by trying to build her top line. That would make a big visual difference. The new photos of her look much better with the better weight.

Good luck! keep us updated on her progress. When she makes the cover of the Chronicle of the Horse, you can feel free to snicker at all of us!!


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## maura

> It is as much a matter of the horse's heart than anything else. A horse with a strong heart and desire to please can overcome many obstacles. Would I openly seek a horse with that horse's conformation? No. However, if a horse like this found its way under my saddle and had the heart to go on...I would welcome it.


I love the way Allison put this. It was was I was trying to say, but Allison managed to put it better. 

I have had many wonderful horses with less than ideal conformation, but becasue they loved their jobs, they were successful, and a few conformational beauties who were duds performance wise because they lacked the desire to please and the attitude.

I think analyzing conformation and what makes a equine athlete is fascinating; but conformation does not write the horse's destiny in stone: conditioning, training and heart all are factors. 

I also agree that you can do a great deal with conditioning and training to improve her topline, and that's where I'd start. 

And when she makes the cover of COTH, I'd also like a copy.


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## OTTBLover

*An update on Lady*

Here is some updated photos of Lady - almost 2 months after the last ones were taken...

Excuse her dry/unhealthy looking coat, we are just coming into spring here and she is shedding big time (I can't wait to see what her summer coat looks like!)


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## OTTBLover

I have some more updated photos of Lady - her coat is about halfway shedded out (we moved interstate 4 weeks ago to a colder climate, so it seems to have stalled her progress a little)...

I think her tummy had dropped, and is looking more like what it should, and not looking so Herring Gutted... 

What do you guys think?


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## Eliz

Omg, to me she looks a million times better. Great job with her!

ETA:

And I love her foot/bone size!


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## OTTBLover

Thanks Eliz, I've spent a lot of time and money working out her diet, and trying to sort out all her problems. I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel!

Its nice to know that I'm not the only one who thinks she has improved...


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## Allison Finch

She does look MUCH better. Now, we want to see under saddle pictures with you riding!!


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## OTTBLover

Thanks Allison! I'm working on that! I have had to give her the last 2 months off with the big move, but now we are settled in, and with Daylight Savings starting over the weekend, I should have some time to get back in the saddle...


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## ladybugsgirl

Skyseternalangel said:


> You know I have been told so many times that my horse can't do this and that.. it's silly. That's like saying a short person can't run in a marathon cause they don't have long legs.
> 
> 
> Sure there may be some preferences behind it.. but I'd say try it.. and if she doesn't love it then try something else
> 
> Everyone tells me my horse would be a perfect jumper cause of his large strong hind, but is he? Nah.. we just piddle around in the arena and on the trails.
> 
> I agree my horse is alittle post legged and he does everything I ask without difficulty
> 
> You know your horse, and you should always give it a go despite what it may or may not have.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maura

Agree that she looks tons better, and agree that you need to post under saddle pics!


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## Courtney

WOW. She's looking so much better now! The only thing that really catches my eye is her high wither... I bet saddle fitting is going to be fun for you. She has a nice face and honest eyes, and I bet she'll try her heart out for you. If nothing else, she'll be a fun ride for a few years and if she can't make it to the level you want to take her, she could become some little boy or girl's dream horse.


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## VanillaBean

She looks much better now. I also cant wait to see undersaddle pics of her!


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## OTTBLover

Here is some under saddle photos and a short video of Lady. I had my 13yr old niece taking the photos/video, and unfortunately she didn't get more footage. Hopefully you can see enough from it anyway.

My focus on riding Lady at the moment is Relaxation and Rhythm. I'm not concerned with what she is doing with her head at this stage.

Please keep in mind that this is Lady's first ride in 2 months, and her first ride in this paddock! I thought she did pretty well!



I seem to be having issues embeding the video from youtube. Any suggestions?


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## OTTBLover

Never mind, I worked it out!


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## OTTBLover

Just one more photo!


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## Saskia

Absolutely lovely colour. 

Where are you located? Backdrop looks a bit like Blue Mountains to me, NSW?


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## brackenbramley

Im really enjoying this link  i see huge consistant improvements in her and it was really good seeing her under saddle please keep posting  xx


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## OTTBLover

Thanks for the replies!

Saskia - I've actually just moved to Victoria, she is kept at my sisters property just outside of Girborne (which is about 50km west of Melbourne). It is such beautiful countryside. My sister is very lucky!

brackenbramley - Thanks! I was planning on boring everyone with regular updates! Any excuse to show off my beautiful Lady as she improves haha.


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## CessBee

Looking at the progress she is doing great! Increase in condition and she looks ery willing under saddle, reminds me of my mare when I got her. I love the way you are working on getting her to work relaxed and in a rythm and not bothering about her head. In the video you appear to already be getting moments of acceptance towards the bit, keep the contact constant and steady and it will come in time


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## OTTBLover

*bump*

Thanks CessBee. I plan on keeping Lady for a long time - so I want to take my time and train her right.

I have ridden her the last couple of days - yesterday I did a fair bit of work in the canter, and she was great! Previously whenever I would canter she would be flat, strung out, rushed and dropping her shoulder in. Yesterday she popped into the canter, and was light and felt balanced! Still had the odd moment of trying to drop her shoulder in, but she was easier to correct, and when I asked for a trot, she came back calmly! 

I think I am winning here! I can't wait to get some more photos/videos - maybe this weekend if the weather is nice!


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## OTTBLover

OK, just to drive you all mad!!

Here is a new video, this one is a little longer, and has some canter work in it....


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## Skyseternalangel

You girls look amazing


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