# Respect under saddle?



## Farmgirl16 (Sep 25, 2016)

Hey all, I have been riding an 11 yr old QH mare for a good 3-4 months now, usually 1-2 X a week in lessons with more frequent rides as time allows. I really like this mare and when we do groundwork she is great. She listens well, has good manners and is usually good at focusing. She is technically a broke horse with a good solid start in reining (neck reins, goes off leg pressure, can do rollbacks and haunch and forehand turns). She doesn't buck or throw her head either, and today she bolted on me.

Trouble is when I get on to ride, she starts to get silly. She walks around fine and neck reins not too bad. But she does constantly try to go off and do her own thing, usually the classic of wanting to be by the exit gate or any of the tie up areas of the arena. She will trot ok sometimes, other times she weaves and fights everything, it's like she's drunk. Cantering is okay, but going back to a trot makes the issues amplify and sometimes she refuses flat out to go forward when asked to pick up the trot from a walk again after cantering. She is also a little herd bound it seems. Today my instructor got us outside in a much larger area close to where her main pasture and buddies are. He asked me to walk her over a wooden bridge and encourage her with a bit firmer pressure (we happened to be going towards where he buddies were). Well she lunged over the bridge and bolted towards her pasture. I fell and did a nice baseball slide on the ground.

I just want her to learn to settle under saddle and listen to me as her leader and partner, wherever we happen to be riding. I'm not sure if it's her work ethic or a lack of experience on my part (probably both) but it's a constant fight every time I ride her it seems. She has good moments of course, lunges well and even follows me w/o a lead line in the arena, but the constant fighting while riding with little to no improvement is making it not worth it.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

She might have some advanced training, but she also has holes in training, and/or has become spoiled
Forget neck reining, until you fix her holes. Go back to a snaffle and ride with two hands
If she has truly been taught reining by someone that knows what they are doing, she should guide, staying between the reins, have shoulder control, thus not try and run off at the shoulders, to the exit or anywhere else
You either need a different instructor, that can help you fix her holes, or have trainer re train her, and then take lessons with that trainer, so she does not revert


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## Farmgirl16 (Sep 25, 2016)

I'm guessing it is from not being consistently ridden for so long. (I am the first to ride her consistently, I'm not sure how long she went before he allowed me to work with her. And yes, someone more experienced rode her first to see how she was and ensure I wouldn't be getting a bronc) Her owner is a professional reining trainer and has done many competitions, I respect him a lot. Maybe she needs some tuning up with someone more experienced than myself.

I will talk to him about her. I can switch her bit too and see if he can help me out with it. If not then I am thinking she will not be my next horse, as I have seriously considered buying her.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Farmgirl16 said:


> I'm guessing it is from not being consistently ridden for so long. (I am the first to ride her consistently, I'm not sure how long she went before he allowed me to work with her. And yes, someone more experienced rode her first to see how she was and ensure I wouldn't be getting a bronc) Her owner is a professional reining trainer and has done many competitions, I respect him a lot. Maybe she needs some tuning up with someone more experienced than myself.


I think so, far as the tune up, as the hrose is taking you for a ride, and not the other way around, LOL. You then need that person to coach you on how to ride the hrose, so she remains honest, as she most likely has your number


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

your instructor must be blind. if he had seen all the trouble you've had with her, as per your own description, he should never have asked you to ride outside of the arena.

I do not think it is that the horse is lacking in training so much as that you are not at the level to match her training. I know that sounds harsh.
A horse that is trained to react to very small but clear ques will be really confused when ridden by a more beginner level rider. confusion leads to trouble.

do not write her off, yet, as a possible horse to buy. keep working on things, but consider that it's YOU who must learn to be much clearer in your requests to such a highly honed mare.


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## Farmgirl16 (Sep 25, 2016)

tinyliny said:


> your instructor must be blind. if he had seen all the trouble you've had with her, as per your own description, he should never have asked you to ride outside of the arena.
> 
> I do not think it is that the horse is lacking in training so much as that you are not at the level to match her training. I know that sounds harsh.
> A horse that is trained to react to very small but clear ques will be really confused when ridden by a more beginner level rider. confusion leads to trouble.
> ...


It's all good, I know I have a long way to go still in terms of learning. I know I have improved some as I am finally getting her to neck rein with more response at the trot with lots of focus on keeping my cues clear and hands quiet (been working on that very exclusively the last 2-3 rides and had much better luck.) She's better when we ride in the arena but taking her outside and asking her to do the obstacle work today seemed to completely fry her mind and amplify the "not listening" issue. She is also a bit of an anxious horse and I think her brain tends to go a mile a minute even when she is calm.


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## Farmgirl16 (Sep 25, 2016)

Smilie said:


> I think so, far as the tune up, as the hrose is taking you for a ride, and not the other way around, LOL. You then need that person to coach you on how to ride the hrose, so she remains honest, as she most likely has your number


Lol, trying hard not to let her get the best of me. I used to have a mare who really did have my number and I was terrified of her. At least I'm not terrified of this one. I know she would be an amazing horse if I can get her to listen to me entirely.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Farmgirl16 said:


> when I get on to ride, she starts to get silly. She walks around fine and neck reins not too bad. But she does constantly try to go off and do her own thing, usually the classic of wanting to be by the exit gate or any of the tie up areas of the arena. She will trot ok sometimes, other times she weaves and fights everything, it's like she's drunk.
> 
> Hi,
> 
> ...


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Kind of reminds me of when I got my first horse after many years of not having one. The mare that I got had been used as a broodmare exclusively for eight years and then she was given to me at the age of almost nineteen. She was a show horse in saddle seat and I didn't know any of her buttons and had no interest in saddle seat. That being said, she was anticipating my expectations and I was not doing it right in her brain. It led to a lot of frustration on her part in the very beginning. Once she got the idea that she didn't have to do any of those things from her former training she settled down. Plus, at first, she wasn't the happiest being brought out of doing nothing but having babies. Her go to when she was frustrated was wanting to bolt to safety (which I didn't allow). We ended up working it out and she was fine but it took about three months for her realize that she was safe and also that she wasn't going to get away with any BS.

There were a lot of things that I would have done differently with her if I were to just get her now. I had some help with her but not a whole lot and not consistently. If you are to purchase this horse, I would definitely seek out help with her to show you anything that can be done differently to help this horse settle down and peacefully work with you.

I think that a lot of times with horses that are respectful towards you on the ground and very well behaved are not exactly being disrespectful when riding. I think that it has more to do with rider confusing them and then they feel unsafe and want to go to where it is safe. Unless, of course, they have learned that they can do whatever they want under saddle.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Not a pro nor have I dealt with hundreds of horses, so take this in that light:

Sounds like a horse who has been taught to submit by someone who is willing and able to up the pressure to a point where the horse feels it must submit. If the horse has no other reason to submit other than "rider increases pressure", and you either can not or will not increase the pressure to that point, then the horse has no reason to submit.

Too much emphasis on obedience disengages the horse's mind. That gets the horse back to thinking, "_Can the rider make me?_" instead of "_Does listening to my rider help me?_" If obedience to a cue has no more purpose than "_This is what the rider wants_", then why should the horse obey if the horse wants something different? And what horse can understand, easily, WHY it needs to speed up at some point in the arena, or WHY it needs to spin or stop very hard just because? What is the benefit to the horse?

The next step is to get the horse to start talking to you, which in turn means listening and responding to what the HORSE thinks. It means you may not cross that wood bridge today - and certainly won't if the only way to do it is to increase pressure until the horse gives up. You may need to back off until the horse is no longer too anxious - "_She is also a bit of an anxious horse and I think her brain tends to go a mile a minute even when she is calm._" - and then dismount and LEAD the horse. Would you trust someone who responds to your fear with kicking you or forcing you?



> I just want her to learn to settle under saddle and listen to me as her leader and partner, wherever we happen to be riding...but it's a constant fight every time I ride her it seems.


If you want a horse to think of you as a partner, you need to be a partner to the horse - and partners don't expect blind obedience. 

I suggest reading through some of these journal threads:

http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/my-mare-star-trail-today-can-431322/

http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/bandit-cowboy-bsms-muddling-through-together-622121/

http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/why-i-gotta-trot-645777/

http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/going-distance-my-endurance-adventures-711762/

http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/trotters-arabians-donkeys-other-people-479466/

http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/macarena-flamenca-2015-a-536297/

In essence, you need to find a way to convince the horse you have good ideas. And not all horses are going to be interested in what you prefer to do. A friend had a stallion who was dangerous to ride until the stallion connected people riding him with things HE liked to do - travel 40 miles in a day, or work very rough cattle. Once he associated humans with that, he became my friend's all-time favorite horse and was eventually ridden by kids.

That stallion sired Trooper, who was spurred to a bloody mess by someone who wanted Trooper to cut cattle - and Trooper hated working cattle. Yet Trooper was an excellent sheep horse and a wonderful beginning rider's trail horse...once he got over being spurred. Nine years later, he still has the scars:








​ 
So a big part can be finding a horse who likes doing the things you like to do. I don't think any horse can be very competitive at a sport the horse doesn't enjoy. They'll always be beaten by a horse with similar ability who WANTS to rein, cut, race, jump, perform, ride trails, etc. If you really like doing X, and the horse shows little initiative in X...don't buy the horse. It will just frustrate you both.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree that some horses can be too highly trained/responsive for a beginner, become confused with incorrectly applied cues, but this horse is not just being over reactive, but exhibiting spoiled issues, like trying to head for the out gate, and the OP is too hung up on'neck reining'
Even when riding ahorse that is extremely well trained, showing that horse on e handed, a lot of training is done using two hands, to keep that hrose correct
On a horse that tries to head for the out gate, or exhibit any other holes, not staying one hundred percent correct, ridden one handed, you go back to riding in abit that allows two hands on the reins, and some direct reining, to support any issues of not staying correct off of that neck rein alone, and the instructor should be in corporating this principle
What does the instructor advise when the horse wanders, tries to drift towards taht out gate or buddies?
A horse is going to go where his shoulders go, and reins only control ahorse from he withers forward, legs the rest. Thus, when that horse drifts, tries to run off, the instructor should be advising on how to correct that horse, make that wrong action difficult, using the right combo of reins and legs to correct the horse
Horses can be respectful on the ground, more then when ridden, for two main reasons. First, horses feel more secure when you lead them somewhere, then ask them to ride there.
Secondly, it is easier even for a relatively green horse person to demand, handle the horse on the ground, without letting nay little issues slip and not become major issues.
Unfortunately, this is not true when riding, as it takes time and experience to both feel the slightest resistance when riding, and also to correct it, so the horse does not progress from taking that proverbial inch to that proverbial mile


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Curious, how does the horse ride when that instructor gets on her?
A well trained horse, that has been kept 'honest' should ride for anyone, if they apply the right cues, and that horse should also have had enough exposure to not get high riding outside
I had a youth from Germany, come over and ride my reining mare, as part of the INternational youth team.
Our Appaloosa association had sent out invitations for International youths to form a team for the Canadian National Appaloosa show. They got a larger response then anticipated, thus asked to use my mare, who I had retired as a broodmare, and who had a foal on her. This mare was very feely, having Peppy San breeding
I weaned the foal, and gave her a refresher course of about a week under saddle, before that youth from Germany arrived.
He had one week to ride her before the show, and had never ridden in reining or games before, and in which he was entered, by default, as the rest of the positions were filled
He won the flag picking and got second in reining, with the judge telling him he would have won, were his lead changes smoother. He confessed to me that he didn't set her up at all for those lead changes ,and she just did them on her own. Point being, a well trained horse, even with a beginner rider, might over react, will only perform at the level of that rider, but that horse won't bolt, weave, try to head to buddies, ect. That is a spoiled horse, or one who has learned to test the rider.
Lesson horses can become infamous for this, ridden with lots of inconsistency by different riders


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Can't 'like' twice (pity there's not exclamation mark likes!) so just saying, I really like the way you put that bsms.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Yeah, that's a big point that I overlooked - if this is during lessons, what is your instructor advising/doing to prevent/correct this? It sounds like they're allowing/expecting too much from you with this horse.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> Not a pro nor have I dealt with hundreds of horses, so take this in that light:
> 
> Sounds like a horse who has been taught to submit by someone who is willing and able to up the pressure to a point where the horse feels it must submit. If the horse has no other reason to submit other than "rider increases pressure", and you either can not or will not increase the pressure to that point, then the horse has no reason to submit.
> 
> ...


The Op is not trying to rein the horse, just ride a horse that is touted to have had some reining training in the past-big difference to Trouper or any horse burned out at a job , or abused in the training for that job.
A horse that bolts towards buddies, just asked to work outside, cross a bridge, might need anew job, but first he needs someone to ride him and not allow him to drift towards friends, to weave aimlessly, versus guiding ( something ahorse will do, as a small level of resistance, when asked to ride out when he does not want to go, leave, ride in that direction
The OP is not asking for blind obedience, just for the horse to listen to cues he supposedly knows, not to try and head for the out gate, not to take charge and bolt toward buddies
She is not asking him to walk off a cliff, but to simply ride like a broke horse that understands aids, that has never learned to run through a bit
I am all for riding horses out, to keep their mind fresh, never to drill them on endless maneuvers, but I also believe, that if I ask my horse to perform,he does so, and not give me the equine version of the finger


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> The Op is not trying to rein the horse, just ride a horse that is touted to have had some reining training in the past...
> 
> A horse that bolts towards buddies, just asked to work outside, cross a bridge, might need anew job, but first he needs someone to ride him and not allow him to drift towards friends, to weave aimlessly...
> 
> ...but I also believe, that if I ask my horse to perform,he does so, and not give me the equine version of the finger





Farmgirl16 said:


> ...Trouble is when I get on to ride, she starts to get silly. She walks around fine and neck reins not too bad. But she does constantly try to go off and do her own thing, usually the classic of wanting to be by the exit gate or any of the tie up areas of the arena. She will trot ok sometimes, other times she weaves and fights everything, it's like she's drunk....
> 
> I just want her to learn to settle under saddle and listen to me as her leader and partner, wherever we happen to be riding...
> 
> ...She's better when we ride in the arena but taking her outside and asking her to do the obstacle work today seemed to completely fry her mind and amplify the "not listening" issue. She is also a bit of an anxious horse and I think her brain tends to go a mile a minute even when she is calm.


I know horses do rebel and give The Middle Hoof Salute sometimes. But I also believe what the Austrian cavalryman wrote in the 1860s - that the horse defends himself. Not just from being 'attacked', but from training that gives him no reason to WANT to be ridden.



> The French say, when speaking of a horse that shows restiveness, "il se defend" - he defends himself...There is much truth in this expression, and it is one that riders should constantly bear in mind, for insubordination is most commonly the result of something having been demanded from the horse that it either did not know how to do or was unable to perform...
> 
> ...There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement; and under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this without overtaxing its powers, will work willingly to the last gasp, which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal...
> 
> ...


There is a lot in that passage that deserves attention. Most of the training I've seen, read about or watched on video focuses on getting responses to cues.

And many will also focus on the physical problems - as they should. A bit that doesn't fit, or a saddle that doesn't fit, or inconsistent cues that confuse the horse - all of those can and frequently DO cause the horse to resist. And it is important to look at those and remove the source of any physical pain that prevents the horse from listening.

But it also helps - or at least, has helped me with the few horses I've owned and worked with - to consider how the horse feels about being ridden.



> ...Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored ; they like amusement, variety, and society : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place, especially with young animals.


I think horses fear far more than we humans realize. And if their rider can not take away their fear and convince them they are safe, then of course they seek the safety of the herd.



> She is not asking him to walk off a cliff, but to simply ride like a broke horse that understands aids...


I view this as a casual stroll in a very safe place. My horse viewed it as torment - as a solitary ride thru enemy territory, filled with unknown threats to his life:








​ 
What has worked with him has not been focusing on applying cues consistently (which I was well able to do before I got him), and not on body control - but simply TEACHING him that I know what is safe or not, and that I won't expose him to threats needlessly. What has also worked well is slow acclimatization, and trying to make sure I never trap him between my cues and the danger.

All of that is tough when one doesn't own the horse and ride it regularly. It also requires learning - by trial and ERROR - the difference between a horse who is afraid and a horse who just doesn't feel like doing something.

But when a horse doesn't feel like doing something, our first choice shouldn't always be to say he is disrespectful, and to accuse him of giving us The Middle Hoof Salute. The horse in the picture will give me 5-10 minutes, maybe more, of good arena time. Then he starts to act up. I can respond by saying, "_Oh, you are disrespecting me! You want a fight? I'll give you one!_"

Or...I can take him out on the street, we can do a 5-10 minute walk along the road, and come back...and he'll give me another 5-10 minutes of good arena work. He gets bored easily in an arena.

The mare I owned was a bit different. She would work in an arena for an hour, cheerfully, provided I never asked her to do the same exercise more than twice in a row. She would do a figure 8 without complaint, and then another. By the third, she would start resisting a little, and by the fourth she would stop, turn around and look at me, and say, "_Are you LOST? Do you need a MAP?_" But if I mixed things up enough, she'd happily work hard, giving it an honest effort, for an hour or more.

If, however, I said we were going to do a circle until she got it right...that was picking a fight. And she'd give me one. Poor fitting tack can cause a horse to resist. So can boredom, or being demanded to do things ad nauseum that don't make sense to them.

So BEFORE we accuse the horse of being disrespectful, or of giving us "the equine version of the finger", *we need to ask ourselves if we are being disrespectful to the horse*. And we also need to understand an environment that looks totally stress-free to us may well look to the horse like we are asking him to walk off a cliff. 

In the winter, one of my neighbors puts a 6 foot tall inflatable penguin in their yard. 

I'm not sure it is fair of me to get upset if my horse doesn't LIKE 6' tall penguins staring at him with implacable hatred in their plastic eyes! I'm not sure pushing him past it - which I could do and did - helped any. TEACHING him that the penguin wasn't staring at him with implacable hatred DID work, and we could soon stroll past it. But I first had to look at the penguin thru my horse's eyes.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

This is not a green horse, needing exposure, but a horse that most likely has =mainly been arena ridden, so totally agree that the horse needs to get out, but in my books, riding a horse out that bolts, tries to do her own thing, is not the best idea, esp by a green rider
The rider is also in a lesson situation, and part of that lesson should be, in the instructor helping that person to ride the horse successfully. A horse that takes control heads for the out gate, is not a horse for someone to learn on, nor is it doing the horse any good, learning that she can run through aids when she feels like it-a common problem with lesson horses.
Sorry, bolting towards buddies is simply not acceptable
I would like to assume, at least in this case, with the OP working with a trainer, having all pain issues ruled out is a given
Your penguin example really does not have anything to do with this situation, JMO. Of course one expects horse to react,when he encounters something completely different, but one hopes to have the training, trust and yes, body control, so the horse does not follow up that spook with an attempt to bolt
I ride my horses out, even those I show, both for their own well being, and I have seen show horses that could not even be ridden from the barn to the arena, but had to be led, because they had only been arena ridden
This horse is neither good in the arena or outside. It is not a safe lesson horse.
Perhaps it needs another job, and it for sure needs an effective rider for awhile.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

@bsms
the kind of riding/training you are describing is a very sensitive approach. it will work only if the rider HAS the ability to convince the horse of his/her authority, in the off chance that it comes down to a "you WILL do this" moment. admittedly, the rider does not approach every training moment this way, bit if the rider does not have that authority , in the eyes of the horse, they will not be able to offer the calm leadership that say, "It's ok, you can walk on past the Penguins".

we may say that this is a good approach, and you know that I DO feel this way,. but, never as a 'beggar'. only as a thoroughly confident, calm and tolerant leader. and, that only comes from knowing that you CAN get what you are asking from the horse, eventually.

a rider who is not with that level of authority, in the eyes of the hrose, will not be able to offer the horse even calm support. It just won't work. 

consequently, in this case, this young rider has more to learn about how to become beleiveably a leader to that horse, and it won't come from just 'allowing' the horse to do what she wants. sorry, but that horse is already doing that, and it's not working out for the both of them.


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## Farmgirl16 (Sep 25, 2016)

loosie said:


> Farmgirl16 said:
> 
> 
> > when I get on to ride, she starts to get silly. She walks around fine and neck reins not too bad. But she does constantly try to go off and do her own thing, usually the classic of wanting to be by the exit gate or any of the tie up areas of the arena. She will trot ok sometimes, other times she weaves and fights everything, it's like she's drunk.
> ...


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## Farmgirl16 (Sep 25, 2016)

bsms said:


> Not a pro nor have I dealt with hundreds of horses, so take this in that light:
> 
> Sounds like a horse who has been taught to submit by someone who is willing and able to up the pressure to a point where the horse feels it must submit. If the horse has no other reason to submit other than "rider increases pressure", and you either can not or will not increase the pressure to that point, then the horse has no reason to submit.
> 
> ...


Wow, lots to take in, lol. I have been very very stuck with this and thinking about it a lot. I know I have to try to convince her that what we're doing can be done as a team. I think, in hindsight, I should have dismounted her in the paddock and walked her to get her to chill out, or maybe even a bit of lunging as it gets her to focus in a little bit more.

I have tried her with a few different things to see if she takes to anything. I've trotted her around barrels and done pole bending, as well as done obstacles inside the arena. She wasn't thrilled with obstacles to begin with but trail challenges are her owner's specialty, along with reining, so we do it. Barrels, she got pushy with her shoulder again, but I thought she may learn to enjoy it once she realizes she would be able to go. She's **** good at pole bending, she just gets overexcited and after a couple runs she'll accidentally run past the first turn. She apparently enjoyed working on cows but unfortunately we don't have access to any at the arena where she lives.


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## Farmgirl16 (Sep 25, 2016)

Smilie said:


> I agree that some horses can be too highly trained/responsive for a beginner, become confused with incorrectly applied cues, but this horse is not just being over reactive, but exhibiting spoiled issues, like trying to head for the out gate, and the OP is too hung up on'neck reining'
> Even when riding ahorse that is extremely well trained, showing that horse on e handed, a lot of training is done using two hands, to keep that hrose correct
> On a horse that tries to head for the out gate, or exhibit any other holes, not staying one hundred percent correct, ridden one handed, you go back to riding in abit that allows two hands on the reins, and some direct reining, to support any issues of not staying correct off of that neck rein alone, and the instructor should be in corporating this principle
> What does the instructor advise when the horse wanders, tries to drift towards taht out gate or buddies?


I don't ride her exclusively w/neck reining (sorry, I should have mentioned it) I do correct her with two handed riding. When she tries to drift I was told just to keep her straight by keeping on her with the opposite rein and same side leg, also of course to watch where I'm going. I was told that "steering starts in the rider's mind and gaze 30 seconds before you arrive at a place. If you correct it at the place, you're already tool late. Basically, anticipate what she might do and stop it before it happens.


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## Farmgirl16 (Sep 25, 2016)

I'm sort of getting the overall feel that: 
1) The mare has probably had a little too much pasture time and needs a tune up by someone more experienced. 
2) She needs a better job than blithering around the arena (I'd love to do more engaging things but it's difficult when she won't respond to my cues)
3) I'm too inexperienced to be a proper partner for her and can't get her to see that I want to work with her, not against her.
4) I need to listen to her better.

She is a sensitive horse, you can see it just by looking in her face and eyes. She is willing I think, when asked correctly. I just can't figure out how to translate our wonderful ground work connection to the saddle.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

If she truly was trained in reining, by someone that knew what he was doing, she would have 'guide' That means she would know to stay evenly between your legs and the reins.
When the horse drifts, you correct with your legs, not your hands, on a finished reiner, as they have to know how to guide on a loose rein, to be shown, seek that perfect circle themselves, ect
Set up one pylon. Helps if the arena is harrowed, so you can see your tracks. Ride a circle around that pylon, first at a walk or jog, on a loose rein, trying to make a circle where that pylon is equal distance all the way around. We the horse drifts, leave the reins alone, and bump whatever body part is out of alignment
Horse drifts out, bump outside shoulder, horse drifts in, press those ribs out
Yes, you look ahead as to where you are going, and not down on the ground, and not down on your horse;s head and neck-the latter having been a fault of mine!
I was told by one trainer why I was looking down for my horse, as he was right where he should be
This is a common fault, and I heard a neat cure, at one clinic I watched on horsemanship. That instructor had all his students wear those glasses used in training basket ball players to look ahead Those glasses are blackened out on the bottom half, so looking down is pointless, and one has to look ahead to see


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## Farmgirl16 (Sep 25, 2016)

Smilie said:


> If she truly was trained in reining, by someone that knew what he was doing, she would have 'guide' That means she would know to stay evenly between your legs and the reins.
> When the horse drifts, you correct with your legs, not your hands, on a finished reiner, as they have to know how to guide on a loose rein, to be shown, seek that perfect circle themselves, ect
> Set up one pylon. Helps if the arena is harrowed, so you can see your tracks. Ride a circle around that pylon, first at a walk or jog, on a loose rein, trying to make a circle where that pylon is equal distance all the way around. We the horse drifts, leave the reins alone, and bump whatever body part is out of alignment
> Horse drifts out, bump outside shoulder, horse drifts in, press those ribs out
> Yes, you look ahead as to where you are going, and not down on the ground, and not down on your horse;s head and neck-the latter having been a fault of mine!


She is pretty good at a walk with the neck reining, but I will definitely try that exercise tomorrow when I go!


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## 255954 (Jun 7, 2017)

Sounds a lot like my situation with my horse. I've only been riding for 6 months. I've had Dually for 4 of those. He was sold to me as being a well-trained horse that neck reigns, had some barrel experience, and rode western and english. It has been a roller coaster ride for me but it has been an EXCELLENT experience. First - Dually was turned out for the last few years (he is now 12) and not ridden much. When he was ridden it was mainly english, so I had to really devote some serious time to slowing down his massive trot to a smooth and slow jog. He had gotten very lazy and unwilling to work.
I also experienced a similar situation to yours on my 3rd ride with him in the arena. I had left the gate open and was trotting him and as we were passing the gate he veered toward it without warning and bolted on me. I tried steering him out of it but was also trying to hold on for my life as well. My wife (an accomplished rider) and the barn manager saw it transpire and turned white. He almost ran us into the gate post. That was a good lesson for me. I learned my horse is barn sour. He learned he could take advantage of me. So now I take steps to prevent those types of occurences from happening. I also am looking for the signs of bad behavior before they happen. I have also spent many hours in the saddle on Dually since and have gotten much more relaxed, confident, and overall a better horseman. Dually was getting bored and frustrated with me and I know I was sending him mixed signals due to my inexperience. I have been taking lessons and working on keeping my hands quiet, leading with my legs and letting my head turn my shoulders which prompts slight rein cues. Dually has been much more willing to work for me. We have also been through quite a few bits, but he seems to be doing best with a grazing bit with a copper mouthpiece with a long slight bend. I've found that a lot is trial and error and working to find the happy mediums - What does my horse respond quickly and well to? Am I doing the right things as a rider? 
Just recently on my last ride I was in the arena on Dually and my wife was riding a Palomino named Voodoo. Dually was very antsy and wanted to follow Voodoo around. I of course wanted him to work and wouldn't let him. I wanted a smooth jog the opposite way but every time they passed he wanted to turn. The second time that happened and he didn't want to listen I took him to the round pen and made him work in there. He did NOT want to canter at first and got stubborn, pinned his ears back and backed up a few steps when I asked him to walk forward. I have learned that when he does this to give him the "circle treatment". It usually takes a few tight quick circles to snap him out of him being an a-hole. It also helps to have a good trainer watch your riding and know what subtle things you are doing incorrectly that sends wrong signals to the horse. For example: I was trying to lope him in the round pen but he would only make it a few strides before returning to a trot. My trainer said I wasn't leaning back far enough and sitting deep, and moving centered sends the signal to slow back down, the motor is in the rear! It feels wrong but makes sense. 
Sorry for rambling but my message is to stick with your horse, maybe have someone else give you a few lessons. Ask them to critique your riding, what are you doing wrong? Pay attention to the signals your horse responds to and build off of those. It is a partnership, but you are the leader.


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