# Extended trot...



## mell

woah, in that 3rd pic all four hooves are off the ground! lol
um i would pick the first pic as the best extended trot. it just seems to be using its hindquarters more and has more reach.


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## JillyBean

I can only compare the first two, since they are in the same point of stride (grounded), while the third is in the suspension phase. 

Between the first two, I like the first one a lot better. The horse (who is very young, if I'm not mistaken) has a very up and open frame. He has great forward movement, with a semi-dropped haunch (considering the reach), raised back, long, stretched neck, open throat latch, and proper vertical position. 

The second horse, on the other hand, is moving more up than out, with more action than the first horse. It also seems as if he's on the verge of hollowing. His throat latch is closed, and his face is pulled in. The rider's hands and his mouth, are disconnected, which may have played a role in his false frame.

I'm interested to hear your input, JustDressageIt. I've never read that book, but now I may have to!


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## minihorse927

I would say that the first one is the best extended trot. It is realy engaging the hindquarters and really reaching with those front legs. The extended trot is defined as a clear increase in speed and length of gait, but speed is not to be excessive, this best suits #1 in the pictures. I think #3 looks like it is about ready to break stride or is being pushed to its limit on the extended trot.


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## Spyder

I don't like any of them.

The first one along with the other two have the same fault of the leg being extended beyong the verticle ( head position) with is actually incorrect according to the description in the FEI rulebook.

The first one is also not even in the angle of the lifting hind leg and the lifting front leg ( the diagonal). The second one is better but because the foot in not fully extended and in fact may be on the way down it becomes difficult to judge.

The third one is also beyound the vertical but this horse is BEHIND the verticle so if the head were in the correct place it may in fact be the most correct. The rider is pulling the head behind the verticle point to where the front leg will land and if I took a little liberty at adjusting where the head would go if the rider did not have such a stranglehold on the reins I believe the leg would land correctly and the diagonal angle is already pretty even and much better than the first two.

So I pick the third one with reservations and only if the rider could be perceived without the rein stranglehold.


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## Pinto Pony

In the first pic the angle under the chin has opened up a little, could probably open up more to be more text book perfect, the two grounded legs are matched and once in the same position as the third pic will probably match the front and hind leg action. So I would probably choose this one as the best, just at a different time.

The second pic the horse hasn't opened its noses out enough and hence the foreleg movement probably won't match the hind leg movement when it is in the same position as the third pic. Too much front, not enough back. Its face and neck seem rather held back.

The third pic the legs all match but the nose is still a little behind the vertical, they could definitely come forward there but nicely matched front and hind.


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## dannys_girl16

At first glance I'm tempted to say the 3rd, because the horse just looks to have more freedom of movement. But now I'm looking at the 1st, which when I first looked at it just appeared blocked to me, but the horse is very engaged behind, has a lot of reach, and is the ONLY one in a snaffle. That counts for quite a bit to me


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## girl_on_black_pony

I dont know anything about dressage, but when I watched it on the olympics, my fav mores were the extended trot and flying change. I just love the extended trot, it looks like they are floating. And their legs just pop out there...so beautiful!


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## Painted Ride

i like the 1st one bc the horse looks animated.


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## JustDressageIt

Okay, here's my answer:

The third horse has the best extended trot. 

Why?
The first two horses' legs have stopped moving at the same tempo, the stride has been broken; look at the angles of the front and back legs (as I've marked with red lines.) These lines should be parallel. 
























Modern dressage has got people so focused on the "showy-ness" of a trot (the toe-flick, big movement) that they've forgotten what a good mover looks like.

Please do go read "*Tug Of War; Classical Versus Modern Dressage*" - it has made me really think about my training techniques.


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## Spyder

JustDressageIt said:


> Okay, here's my answer:
> 
> The third horse has the best extended trot.
> 
> Modern dressage has got people so focused on the "showy-ness" of a trot (the toe-flick, big movement) that they've forgotten what a good mover looks like.
> 
> Please do go read "*Tug Of War; Classical Versus Modern dressage*" - it has made me really think about my training techniques.


Absolutely. I didn't like the forehand (head positioning) of the third horse but the actual trot is correct. I just find that even the judges get overwhelmed by all the flashiness of the toe flick and hyperextension of the foreleg and riders are being rewarded for tenseness, no halts ( like Anky's invisible halt), and faulty piaffes.

Now this is good dressage and is still held up to be a fluid piece of work.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=8T3AcvnEuMw

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=tKbqokuTzh8


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## JustDressageIt

Spyder said:


> JustDressageIt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, here's my answer:
> 
> The third horse has the best extended trot.
> 
> Modern dressage has got people so focused on the "showy-ness" of a trot (the toe-flick, big movement) that they've forgotten what a good mover looks like.
> 
> Please do go read "*Tug Of War; Classical Versus Modern dressage*" - it has made me really think about my training techniques.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely. I didn't like the forehand (head positioning) of the third horse but the actual trot is correct. I just find that even the judges get overwhelmed by all the flashiness of the toe flick and hyperextension of the foreleg and riders are being rewarded for tenseness, no halts ( like Anky's invisible halt), and faulty piaffes.
> 
> Now this is good dressage and is still held up to be a fluid piece of work.
> 
> http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=8T3AcvnEuMw
> 
> http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=tKbqokuTzh8
Click to expand...

Beautiful videos, thanks for sharing!!

I completely agree with riders' harsh methods being rewarded by judges today; a horse can be tense as all get-out, but if he has a flashy trot? Game over.


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## JillyBean

Hm. I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. You can't compare the evenness of the legs and how parallel they are in the first two pictures to the last picture. Again, because they are in different points in the stride, the could be (and probably ARE) moving very similarly. The third horse, may move the same as the other, but because he's in the down swing the stride, where his legs are moving down toward the ground, his legs are parallel, so they can strike the ground evenly. The other two pics however, the horses are in the UP swing of the stride where their legs are moving UP, away from the ground. Their legs are going to create different lines just because of how the horse is built. The legs can't lift as high in the back due to there being horse above them, but in the front, there is much more room for a lifted leg as long as the horse has a swinging, mobile shoulder. Plus, the legs will never be stick-straight all the time, no matter how good of a mover the horse is. The lines of the legs are going to differ. 

Another thing I wanted to mention is that you are measuring two very different parts of the horse's legs. If you want consistent measurements of how much the legs are parallel to each other, then you shoulder measure the lower half of the limb. So make the lines even with the cannon bones on both the front and the hind legs. The forearm is going to be at a severely different angle from the hind legs at this point in the stride because the leg has to be bent in order to lift the leg, so comparing hind cannons to forearms is not going to be an accurate measure.

If you don't believe me, look at this video: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7uuW6KfEjY

If you pause in that video periodically throughout the extended trots, you will see many different phases of the trots, including two that look very similar to all three of the pics that you posted, plus several others.

Hope you don't take this post the wrong way, I'm just throwing this out there for discussion!


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## JustDressageIt

JB, do you disagree that the trot in the first two are incorrect?


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## JillyBean

I'm not saying that they are correct or incorrect, in the way that you are. They sure all have flaws in different ways, but because there are so many different phases in the gait, you really can't compare the flashiness or the "pop" or the action in their gaits with only one picture (of each horse). You'd need an entire video or a series of close pictures to properly depict and critique the trot.


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## kickshaw

Interesting topic, JDI!

Even if the 3rd horse has the most "textbook" trot with regards to his legs being parallel, i don't like the way the horse is moving...his head is held into frame, and he has NO muscle (or, wrong muscle) in his neck...and should definitely not be in a double bridle (or working extended trot). 

while i think that you are correct about too much emphasis being put in the "pop" of the gaits, those horses couldn't do that unless they were being ridden through the back and into the bridle - an uncollected or incorrectly ridden horse just wouldn't be able to perform in the same way (my bet says the 3rd horse couldn't move like that). 

I think that the pictures chosen to compare the 3 were not completely fair, as they are in different parts of the stride...JMO though. My vote still goes with photo #1


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## ArabianAmor

Wow what an awesome topic! I think I agree as far as the 3rd one being the better extended trot, since that is what we are supposed to be looking at anyway... Although since we are looking at different frames in the trot it is really had to tell. The expulsion in the first one is awesome but at the same time both 1 and 2 have an extended front leg and no extended hind. So therefore it cant be correct am i right?? I really dont know though, but that is just how I see it!


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## Spyder

ArabianAmor said:


> Wow what an awesome topic! I think I agree as far as the 3rd one being the better extended trot, since that is what we are supposed to be looking at anyway... Although since we are looking at different frames in the trot it is really had to tell. The expulsion in the first one is awesome but at the same time both 1 and 2 have an extended front leg and no extended hind. So therefore it cant be correct am i right?? I really dont know though, but that is just how I see it!


The requirement in the extended trot is that the horse should be gaining ground through. This cannot happen when the haunches are not being used correctly either as lack of power( impulsion) or distance in striding ( short angle).


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## ArabianAmor

Spyder said:


> ArabianAmor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow what an awesome topic! I think I agree as far as the 3rd one being the better extended trot, since that is what we are supposed to be looking at anyway... Although since we are looking at different frames in the trot it is really had to tell. The expulsion in the first one is awesome but at the same time both 1 and 2 have an extended front leg and no extended hind. So therefore it cant be correct am i right?? I really dont know though, but that is just how I see it!
> 
> 
> 
> The requirement in the extended trot is that the horse should be gaining ground through. This cannot happen when the haunches are not being used correctly either as lack of power( impulsion) or distance in striding ( short angle).
Click to expand...

Eh I dont know... I trust you though. Still learning this topic really. Thanks for the correction though


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## JustDressageIt

Although they are in different phases, you can still compare them in the way I'm asking you to, as the other two have become disjointed - the footfall pattern has been disrupted, so they won't look like the third horse in that phase of the stride; the legs would have to work double time and then some to be able to right up again.
And to be honest, I was just looking at the legs when I chose these pictures  that's the part of the book I'm in. I realize that there are different aspects of the body coming into play, but I was wanting to comment on the legs specifically, and even more specifically, the broken rhythm.
More to the point, horses who do a showy, snappy trot are winning, not the horses that exhibit a good, balanced striding extended trot, which I don't think is right; the first two images show the horses incorrectly striding out, where the trot rhythm has been broken.


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## Spyder

ArabianAmor said:


> Spyder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ArabianAmor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow what an awesome topic! I think I agree as far as the 3rd one being the better extended trot, since that is what we are supposed to be looking at anyway... Although since we are looking at different frames in the trot it is really had to tell. The expulsion in the first one is awesome but at the same time both 1 and 2 have an extended front leg and no extended hind. So therefore it cant be correct am i right?? I really dont know though, but that is just how I see it!
> 
> 
> 
> The requirement in the extended trot is that the horse should be gaining ground. This cannot happen when the haunches are not being used correctly either as lack of power( impulsion) or distance in striding ( short angle).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Eh I dont know... I trust you though. Still learning this topic really. Thanks for the correction though
Click to expand...

No problem. I have judged dressage to FEI.


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## ArabianAmor

Spyder said:


> No problem. I have judged dressage to fei.


Cool! I have been a hunter/jumper all my life and just now getting into dressage and I love it! I'll be sure to come to you if I have any questions, if you dont mind.


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## moomoo

Spyder critique my dressage please!!  

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xoNr59IZ2dU

The film quality isnt great but i would appreciate it if you could try 

Ignore the accidental flying change  :lol: 

I will upload my score sheet and type it out if you want to see it


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## Spyder

moomoo said:


> Spyder critique my dressage please!!
> 
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xoNr59IZ2dU
> 
> The film quality isnt great but i would appreciate it if you could try
> 
> Ignore the accidental flying change  :lol:
> 
> I will upload my score sheet and type it out if you want to see it


Difficult to see as the camera is a distance from the ring. Just remember that if a movement is done that is at a higher level than the test requirements you could be eliminated.

Now I don't have the benefit of sound but here is what I see.

Corners not ridden into and the horse appears a ittle stiff. If anything you are guilty of what so many people just starting into dressage are guilty of. Don't be afraid to push the envelope more. Most riders tend to ride the movements and figures and fail to be willing push the horse for more than what you feel "comfortable" with. You can settle for a nice ride and you will get a decent score but the ones that win will always be the ones that give everything they can each time.

I would have liked to have seen a more open trot. Your trot was not really a working trot . The canter was better but still conservative.I hope you can understand what I am saying.


I am not sure of what level you were riding ..... training/level 1 ?


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## jeddah31

I know this is a very old topic but I'm currently also leanring about the difference between classical and modern dressage and it's made me go out and find a classical instructor to begin lessons with!

I can not see the thrid photo at the moment (I'm at school and the computer blocks things so I can't see some files types) but both the first and second trot photos are disunited. Someone brought up an excellent point about JDI you not linging up on the same parts oft he legs, and each photo being in different stages of the trot. However, You can clearly SEE that the back of both horses is hollowed and the hinquarters are being left behind. There is great big flashy movement, with no engagment from behind!


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## equineangel91

I think the 1st is definitely best. It shows extension while keeping a naturally collected frame. In pic 2 and 3 the horses look like theyre being forced into that frame..pulled in to relieve pressure...vs ... the 1st pic wich shows a horse pulling his nose downward and in because of his natural balance of the hind legs coming in underneath him to bring him foward. Pic 1 is def my choice for the very best extended trot


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## ohmyitschelle

Haven't read the whole conversation but have to mention that the book you reconmend is on my to read list... my friend got it and I was amazed at what she was talking about. Will have to come back to this thread when it's not so late at night!
x


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## jeddah31

equineangel91 said:


> I think the 1st is definitely best. It shows extension while keeping a naturally collected frame. In pic 2 and 3 the horses look like theyre being forced into that frame..pulled in to relieve pressure...vs ... the 1st pic wich shows a horse pulling his nose downward and in because of his natural balance of the hind legs coming in underneath him to bring him foward. Pic 1 is def my choice for the very best extended trot


the first horse i also behind the bit..very slightly, but the front of the face should not come at all past the vertical. on that note both photos two and three are also behind the bit.. 

However photo three the horses hind legs are NOT united with his front as in pic 3


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## Spyder

Take a look at the extension picture from the home page of this site.

Home Page


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## jeddah31

these are the two best extensions I could fine photos of


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## Skyhuntress

JillyBean said:


> Hm. I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. You can't compare the evenness of the legs and how parallel they are in the first two pictures to the last picture. Again, because they are in different points in the stride, the could be (and probably ARE) moving very similarly. The third horse, may move the same as the other, but because he's in the down swing the stride, where his legs are moving down toward the ground, his legs are parallel, so they can strike the ground evenly. The other two pics however, the horses are in the UP swing of the stride where their legs are moving UP, away from the ground. Their legs are going to create different lines just because of how the horse is built. The legs can't lift as high in the back due to there being horse above them, but in the front, there is much more room for a lifted leg as long as the horse has a swinging, mobile shoulder. Plus, the legs will never be stick-straight all the time, no matter how good of a mover the horse is. The lines of the legs are going to differ.
> 
> Another thing I wanted to mention is that you are measuring two very different parts of the horse's legs. If you want consistent measurements of how much the legs are parallel to each other, then you shoulder measure the lower half of the limb. So make the lines even with the cannon bones on both the front and the hind legs. The forearm is going to be at a severely different angle from the hind legs at this point in the stride because the leg has to be bent in order to lift the leg, so comparing hind cannons to forearms is not going to be an accurate measure.
> 
> If you don't believe me, look at this video:
> YouTube - Warmblood Stallion Extended Trot ridden by Steffan Peters
> 
> If you pause in that video periodically throughout the extended trots, you will see many different phases of the trots, including two that look very similar to all three of the pics that you posted, plus several others.
> 
> Hope you don't take this post the wrong way, I'm just throwing this out there for discussion!


Agreed completely. You cannot judge it by the photos that you posted, because it really depends in which segment of the stride the picture was taken to begin with.
I would actually argue that the 1st picture COULD be the nicest of the three if the picture had been taken a full second later. He's got the freest shoulder. He's got lovely power from behind. He's also got the longest stride of the three, so more to coordinate On the other hand, in the second picture, its taken probably a split second right before he was actually in full extension, so he looks as if there's little to no push from behind when there probably in fact is. 
The third horse is actually closed in and has no place to really go with his extended trot. His legs might be better positioned, but in actually, the body of the first horse is closer to the ideal, because he's stretching upwards

you can't compare the photos with any degree of accuracy. they arent in the same positioning of footfalls. It's like asking a person to judge a flying lead change just in that first moment versus in a moment where all 4 legs might be off the ground. 
be interesting to see video clips of these horses and see how they went


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## Zafirah

I prefer number 3.


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## mayfieldk

I agree that you can't compare the horse's because their strides are not all together.
However, you CAN look at other things.
First picture--horse is broken at the third vertebra, therefore the poll is not the highest point--probably because he is trained BTV. His head is behind the vertical. If you draw a line from the base of the neck (The starting point of the thoracic spine) to the point of the hip where the pelvis meets the spine, he is, again, slightly down hill, when he should be AT LEAST even or better yet, uphill. He isn't horrible, however.

Second: I really dislike this horse. He looks angry, his haunches are high in the air, if you draw the line again he is downhill, and he has the classic 'massive shoulders' of todays incorrectly trained dressage horses. Broken at the 3, or maybe 4th vertebra, and behind the vertical. The head shouldn't be pulled under the poll--the horse should raise the poll over the nose. Looks like the same thing, but they are achieved two VERY different ways.

Last horse: Way behind the vertical, which I'm not a fan of, and the curb is being used too strongly for the particular maneuver. If you draw the line he is even, so he is at the second level of training, out of three. I like his body the best, but because of the BTV, it looks like his chest is starting to sink--which means the haunches will come up.

I don't really like any of them.  I hate BTV.
If you want to learn about classical dressage, I know a few REALLY good websites with diagrams that I think you'd love... you know, REAL classical dressage, not competitive dressage with a classical name. You'll probably like French Classical (Yay Phillippe Karl!), as I do. He's a brilliant man.

Competitive dressage has gone down the crapper.


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## Nadia

I would say the 3rd picture.
The first and second are absolutely not an extended trot. The hindlegs are not stretching enough. Looks nice, but it not the right way. Extended trot is not just about the front, hindlegs are important too.


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