# Kimberwick Bit Help



## HighOctaine2000 (Sep 15, 2015)

I normally ride bitless, but wanted a bit so I can start doing some more refined riding - I am not seeking control. I will be upfront in saying bits confuse the heck out of me!!! A friend of mine whose opinion I respect (she's a very soft rider) suggested a Kimberwick as my horse prefers poll pressure over tongue/bar pressure and hates broken mouthpieces. I ended up with this one:

https://www.horseloverz.com/product...stainless-steel-gentle-touch-kimberwicke.html

But it just now occurred to me that I have it in my hands that there is nowhere to connect a chin strap - isn't that what would help create the poll pressure? Am I getting this wrong....? I would appreciate advice from anyone familiar with this bit. Also, it's heavier than I had anticipated - will this be a potential issue??


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

Kimberwicks usually use a chain link curb strap. The chain normally has open hooks at each end -- these hooks would go on to the flat topped opening where the bridle cheek pieces go.

Weight shouldn't be too much of a factor if the bit sits balanced in your horse's mouth.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

It will end up looking something like this:








​ 
It uses a chain, not a leather strap. FWIW, the curb bits I've tried use almost no poll pressure in spite of what people say. To check, stand next to your horse on the ground and pull the reins with your fingertips under the poll strap. When I try that, I feel almost no pressure on my fingertips.

The weight shouldn't be a problem for most horses. They learn to carry it. This was Mia carrying a larger & heavier western curb bit after a ride and before I got the tack off. You can see how much she is bothered by carrying it:


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## HighOctaine2000 (Sep 15, 2015)

Ah! Thank you both so much!! That picture really helped. All the ones I looked at had a small little hole to connect to. Is there any reason they use a chain vs leather? I'm ashamed at how little I know, but there is so much information everywhere that's contradicting that I just try to go with people I know and trust.

I will definitely test the poll pressure with my guy - I ride english so I was trying to stick with an english style bit. Ultimately if he's happy in it, I will be, too.

I have an Arab, as well.  Yours has a very pretty head!


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## HighOctaine2000 (Sep 15, 2015)

Also - any suggestions on what bit does provide poll pressure?


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

That style of chain is not that uncomfortable for the horse to wear as the links (when they're twisted into correct position that is) lay flat against the jaw so don't dig in; but it will pack more punch than a leather curb strap as there is no give to it. That chain is also an old "English" style and I suspect originally came over to the Kimberwick from the double bridle set up that you still see used in upper level dressage today. 

With regard to use of a leather curb strap, I think you can readily see how little room you have for connection so the hooks used in the chain strap would be the best alternative to use for a leather one and, on top of that, the chain strap is more flexible giving a better fit to the contours of the horse's jaw line.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

HighOctaine2000 said:


> Also - any suggestions on what bit does provide poll pressure?


The only bits that apply poll pressure are gag bits.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HighOctaine2000 (Sep 15, 2015)

I can see that there isn't much room for a leather, I was just wondering what the difference/preference was. Thank you so much for your insight! It's very helpful!


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## HighOctaine2000 (Sep 15, 2015)

Oooo... yeah, definitely no experience with gag bits!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

The problem is when you start looking with those ideals you end up with the harsher bits.

What exactly is your goal with "refined riding"?

Sounds like you know his bit preferences just choose not to use one.. what have you used before?

There are many options for "non broken" mouthpieces but not too many options for poll pressure (well mild options).

Some horses may prefer a more "serious" bit and as long as the rider knows how to use it than that's fine, but ideally you go for the mild ones first.

English or Western.. contact? 

The bit you posted is interesting. I would look at a mullen mouth or you could try a ported bit (goes up in the middle to relieve tongue pressure) or something like a myler bit is jointed but won't have the action of a jointed bit. I would just try him in a snaffle. If he just doesn't like snaffles that's fine (but limits your options if you're looking for bits to keep steady contact on).

If he prefers poll pressure I might try that Kimberwick as is without the chain. It would have more poll pressure but would still have the same amount of pressure on the bars/tongue.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I'm also curious about what you are looking for in "refined riding." I'm brand new to experimenting with some different types of bitless (it used to be there were only a few options). However, in my limited experience with the newer, low or no leverage hackamores, they give you a lot of refinement. My horse has been ridden for a long time in a Kimberwicke. I'm finding that a flower hackamore allows me to lift her shoulder more easily and give her more refined cues than the bit. Having been used to only mechanical type hackamores, sidepulls, bosals or crossunder bitless bridles, I'm pretty happy to know how useful these are. If your horse goes best in bitless, you could try it out.
There are a few options such as the star hackamore, flower hackamore, etc.


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## HighOctaine2000 (Sep 15, 2015)

I am looking for a better headset and collection. For example, I'll ask for a shoulder in, but he'll have his head high - I'd really love to bring his head down and tip his nose in so he can really stretch that leg across. I am currently riding in a rope halter which he is responsive to, but lacks the ability to teach some of that collection he doesn't yet know. Or maybe I'm just not asking correctly. 

I'm looking for english and have ridden loose ring snaffle (his least favorite), d ring snaffle, French link, and briefly a Tom Thumb - which he gave well to, but does not work well with direct reining nor could I do english. And he hated when it would hit the roof of his mouth.


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## HighOctaine2000 (Sep 15, 2015)

I just recently saw those! The biggest thing with riding him with a bit is how much they seem to distract him and make him fussy. Even my friend who has very soft hands feels the difference. Resistance is the best word I can think of.

I wish showing bitless was more widely accepted....


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I don't think you have to get the head down to get good crossover, see this video at 0:40 to 1:00 LOL. Not that I could do any of this!

https://youtu.be/T9D1vEP98rc


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## HighOctaine2000 (Sep 15, 2015)

Neither of us are that talented yet - but I wish!! # relationshipgoals? Lol.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> The only bits that apply poll pressure are gag bits.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Incorrect. 

There are seven points that a bit can have an action on:-

Bars, 
Tongue,
Palate (roof of the mouth) 
Lips,
Chin,
Cheeks 

Also with some bits the nose.

Any bit that has a groove where the bit attaches to the cheek pieces is going to have a certain amount of poll pressure.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Foxhunter said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> There are seven points that a bit can have an action on:-
> 
> ...


Agree but that tends to be the minimum, in a Kimberwick it would apply after bar and chin pressure (or I guess tongue too with that bit) and wouldn't be felt as strongly, though I guess you could fiddle with that by curb adjustment.

I think what was meant was there were no bits that had solely poll pressure and not tongue/bars which supposedly this horse doesn't like. I agree a gag comes closest (unless I'm missing something lol).

It seems silly to put a gag on a well trained horse to get collection just because it has more poll pressure.. imo.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

gottatrot said:


> I'm also curious about what you are looking for in "refined riding." I'm brand new to experimenting with some different types of bitless (it used to be there were only a few options). However, in my limited experience with the newer, low or no leverage hackamores, they give you a lot of refinement. My horse has been ridden for a long time in a Kimberwicke. I'm finding that a flower hackamore allows me to lift her shoulder more easily and give her more refined cues than the bit. Having been used to only mechanical type hackamores, sidepulls, bosals or crossunder bitless bridles, I'm pretty happy to know how useful these are. If your horse goes best in bitless, you could try it out.
> There are a few options such as the star hackamore, flower hackamore, etc.


I love how adjustable those are!

Just want to add too (for the OP) that bitless isn't necessarily gentler or anything for the horse. If he prefers it that's just fine but don't do it out of misguided sympathy.

For collection and such I would NOT use a rope halter. I don't think you (necessarily) need to go with a bit though, but would definitely be using a hackamore.

Honestly all the bits listed are jointed (I'm assuming) so it really sounds like the issue is the mouthpiece where you haven't tried any others as opposed to needing a certain type of pressure.

I would just try a different mouthpiece. He may have a low pallet too. I'd try a mullen mouth (straight) or maybe a waterford might work, could be hit or miss (lots of little joints, many horses really like it though it looks strange lol) or a myler bit (it's jointed but the joints are covered with a roller so they don't bend the way another bit would, there is very slight bend but I wouldn't think it would bother him). He may just have a low pallet so I would stay away from any very fat bits. Some of the lower ported bits may work too, but I wouldn't get a high one.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Unless you intend to do dressage where you have to rode the horse with a bit and a Kimberwick would not be allowed, why bother to change is you are happy riding bitless?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Poll pressure: I've tried sticking my fingertips under the poll strap while the reins are pulled back by myself or a friend. I've tried it with a variety of western curbs. I've yet to feel anything definite. Maybe just a tiny bit of pressure, but if so, so little that I can't say it is there for certain. I used to own a Kimberwick, but I don't remember trying with that bit.

Once the curb strap stops the purchase (the upper arm of the bit) from rotating, no further tightening of the poll strap is possible. Without the curb strap, the shanks could continue to rotate and it would function more like a gag bit. IIRC, the AQHA gives a huge fine to anyone caught using a curb bit without a curb strap. People talk about curb bits creating poll pressure, but I haven't found any that did.

For training self-carriage, a bit like this works well - and is gentle. It is a western bit, but I assume there ought to be some English equivalent. The Mylar version of the Kimberwick that I put in my previous post might be close:








​ 
The mouthpiece never changes shape, and it will not pull back and crush the cheek of the horse. It cannot poke anywhere. It can be used for direct reining.

The curb strap is adjusted to allow 45-60 degrees of rotation by the shank before it tightens. When there is some slack in the reins, the curb strap has not tightened. When slack is out of the reins, the shanks have rotated enough to tighten the curb strap - so it is easy for the rider to see from the saddle if the curb strap has tightened. Just check the tension in the reins.

Prior to the curb strap tightening, there is virtually no pressure applied to the mouth. The bit is just rotating. If you look at the picture of Mia, the weight of the rein sliding down has rotated the shanks enough to tighten the curb strap. You can see how bothered she is by it (not!). That also indicates how freely the shanks rotate before the curb strap tightens.

If the rider does not snatch on the reins, but gives a smooth cue, then that rotation always occurs. And the horse will figure out that he can respond while the shanks are rotating freely, or he can respond after the curb strap tightens and pressure is applied. That time of free rotation is called the signal.

It give the horse a very easy to feel and definite cue - the left side of the mouthpiece rotating between his lips while the left shank rotates right next to his face and lips, or both shanks doing it, or all on the right side. Mia, the horse in my picture, could be a spooky mare, but she wasn't stupid. She quickly figured it out. We could sometimes go entire rides without ever needing to take all the slack out of the reins. If we did, it was because Mia chose to ignore my request - and horses will do so at times.

It was good for me because it made it easy to tell how much I was getting in her mouth, and how much was her responding to my leg or accepting my command during the signal phase. I had ridden her for years in a sidepull, and later rode her often in a snaffle, but she was always more eager and confident in a curb bit than anything else. Food for thought, since it totally contradicts what I was led to believe during my bitless only phase.

My current horse is Bandit. He spooks about as often as Mia did, but not nearly as hard. He doesn't try to run away, but he'll try hard to move to one side or turn around. I'd love to put him in Mia's old curb bit, but he needs to get more confidence. For now, either a sidepull or a snaffle is a better choice for getting him where I want him. I eventually want him in a curb bit, though, because one used well can be a very gentle way of riding - more so than bitless, IMHO. But I've tried both for years, so my opinion isn't entirely bogus.

For English showing, that might not work. But for training a horse to be shown English, it might. In any case, I thought I'd mention it because I spent years giving the stink eye to ANY bit...and my horse eventually taught me that SHE was happier (more eager, more forward, more relaxed and more confident) in a big ol' western curb with 7.5" sides. Just a thought from someone who used to rely on bitless only.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

If the OP wants to work on collection I'd stay away from a curb.

I agree the myler type mouthpiece may be a good fit, they make many different styles.


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## HighOctaine2000 (Sep 15, 2015)

I have a girl who is willing to buy this bit if he doesn't like it... I'll try it and see how it goes, but it sounds like I'll definitely be trying a Myler as well! Thank you all so much for the good advice!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I'd probably try one just going off what you said:

http://www.marathontownandcountry.com/Horse_tack/Myler_bits_pic_with_logo.jpg


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

bsms said:


> Poll pressure: I've tried sticking my fingertips under the poll strap while the reins are pulled back by myself or a friend... I've yet to feel anything definite. Maybe just a tiny bit of pressure..I used to own a Kimberwick, but I don't remember trying with that bit.


I've tried this with a Kimberwick also, and there is no poll pressure that I could feel.



bsms said:


> In any case, I thought I'd mention it because I spent years giving the stink eye to ANY bit...and my horse eventually taught me that SHE was happier (more eager, more forward, more relaxed and more confident) in a big ol' western curb with 7.5" sides. Just a thought from someone who used to rely on bitless only.


It depends so much on the individual horse but I think it's good to be open to what works best and is kindest. If a horse was going to go on a loose rein and respond to light cues in either a bitless or a curb, I'd go with bitless. If a horse was going to pull and require strong-arming in a bitless but went with a loose rein and responded to light cues in a curb, then the curb is actually more kind. 
I tried an english curb with my mare before going to the kimberwicke to see if I could get away with cueing less. It made this mare nervous because even the lightest cues were too strong and made her feel trapped. So she'd be going real slow but panicking, and you couldn't keep her from taking off without cueing constantly. It can be very tricky finding what works for a particular horse. 
If the OP wants to try riding with some contact and the horse needs a lot of cueing to learn, I would not go to a curb.


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## HighOctaine2000 (Sep 15, 2015)

Yogiwick said:


> I'd probably try one just going off what you said:
> 
> http://www.marathontownandcountry.com/Horse_tack/Myler_bits_pic_with_logo.jpg


Isn't that essentially the exact same thing I have in a different brand...?


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## HighOctaine2000 (Sep 15, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> If the OP wants to try riding with some contact and the horse needs a lot of cueing to learn, I would not go to a curb.


He is very light and does well in bitless, but there are some things I'm just not able to communicate clearly enough - and again, this might be entirely me. I'd also like to be able to do some local shows, nothing serious, so he will have to be used to a bit.


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## BearPony (Jan 9, 2013)

If I were you, I might try a mullen mouth snaffle or even a rubber or leather bit of some variety to see if that type of straight or somewhat flexible mouthpiece was more appealing to him.

How much experience has your has had wearing a bit in general? The resistance you are seeing/feeling may simply be due to him not being familiar with the feeling of a bit. Can you let him wear the bit just hanging out in his stall or small paddock (supervised) until he appears comfortable with it? 

And once he seems comfortable, just proceed like he's a youngster who is learning how to wear and respond to a bit for the first time. He may just need a little help learning to understand what the bit really means.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Does he know how to stretch down to your hands? If you get a false collection (head tucked), you get a tense and stiff back. First , he should round down and lift his back. That makes his hind legs stretch further under his body, then he can learn to carry more weight on those hind legs, then elevate his front end, and collect.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I will state this once. I HATE Kimberwicke bits. They cause the horse to open his mouth. You are better off with a mullen mouth Pelham and two reins than a Kimberwicke. 

These bits carry a curb chain which must lie flat under the horse's chin. They have no more or less give than a curb strap.. all give is in the tightness of the chain. The looser they are, the more rotation of the bit before the curb chain takes up and puts pressure on the bars of the mouth (and tongue if you have a curb bit). 

That said, if your horse is raising his head and not reaching under himself you have a training issue not a bitting issue. A raised head equals a hollow back and a short stride behind. Forcing the head lower with a bit (regardless of what kind) is not going to get a supple back, nice reach under or much of anything else as this is what is known as riding front to back. 

I would be using a sweet iron snaffle (even a double link if you horse fusses) and a loose rein.. teaching the horse forward and down. If he yaws with a snaffle, and your hands are not the cause, you can use a dropped nose band to support the bit or a flash nose band (does the same thing) that will also prevent the evasion of mouth opening. 

Nothing much can be accomplished riding with a rope halter.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I have no problem with a true English type Kimberwick used with a low port and a correctly fitted curb chain but the bit the OP has shown isn't one and the slotted type are known as Uxeter Kimberwicks

I don't agree with using what amounts to be an artificial aid as a shortcut though. It is possible to get a horse in a real collected outline in a bitless bridle or a short shanked hackamore but if the OP wants to compete in dressage or something like that then she should get a competition legal snaffle type bit and put the hours in.


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## HighOctaine2000 (Sep 15, 2015)

Like I said, bits confuse the heck out of me - but I know he strongly dislikes single link bits and didn't particularly like the French link, either. I gave him time to adjust and his teeth are checked once or twice a year. I switched to the rope because I got tired of fighting with him and he was starting to dislike seeing me. I'll try him in this since I have it and see how he does.

Someone had asked earlier if he was used to a bit - the answer is yes, he used to show with the previous owner and eventually became an absolute terror. He's much, much better now.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

HighOctaine2000 said:


> Isn't that essentially the exact same thing I have in a different brand...?


Same as the Kimberwick? Not at all XD. That's a Myler bit. It is jointed but that middle roller prevents the joints from bending very far. They are curved, some are low ( like this) some have a higher port which i would stay away from.

The slots would allow you to have a little more poll pressure if desired. The Kimberwick needs a curb chain and I'm not sure this does, the mouthpiece is different as well. Yours is straight and the copper is attached not separate (it's an interesting mouthpiece).

The Kimberwick seems a little random to me, I get why it was suggested but I feel like there are better options for what you desire.

I agree a Pelham may be a good choice, but the OP will need to learn to ride with two reins .


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Riding with two reins and a full bridle on a well trained horse provides so much clarity.


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## HighOctaine2000 (Sep 15, 2015)

Well, the bit didn't fit him so it looks like it wasn't meant to be!! He needs more like a 4 1/2. The search continues and I'll definitely be taking all of your advice into consideration!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

A lot of trainers have "bit boxes" you can rummage around in. Buying online and returning is a pain so I'd see what you could find available at least to try.

Avoiding the whole "poll pressure" thing as I'm not sure how accurate it is (though the bit I posted is worth trying if you think it is accurate) I would go with this next:







available in many different cheekpieces and some variations of mouthpiece (I wouldn't bother with the jointed ones, the joints are either a problem or they aren't). I wonder if he may like a waterford. Did I already say that? lol


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> There are seven points that a bit can have an action on:-
> 
> ...



Correct

To the Op:
Far as a kimberwick itself, it is more of a combo bit, thus can act either like a snaffle, or a curb, depending in which slot the reins are attached
Knimberwicks are very popular for amateurs and youth, that show HUS, with reins attached in the curb position, for more 'control', but you will not find an open professional, RIDING HUS in a kimberwick, as it screams-amateur!
Look at any open HUS stock horse upper breed level pic, and you will see that horse ridden in a D ring snaffle, very collected , moving correctly.
Why? Because your idea of using a bit for collection is is false.
Collection comes from correct movement from behind, with the bit just acting like a barrier to contain energy generated


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

HighOctaine2000 said:


> He is very light and does well in bitless, but there are some things I'm just not able to communicate clearly enough - and again, this might be entirely me. I'd also like to be able to do some local shows, nothing serious, so he will have to be used to a bit.


If he is not been conditioned to a correct bit response in a snaffle, he has no business in anything put a snaffle, for that education.
Since you wish to ride English, the bit of choice, designed to be used with contact, is a D ring snaffle
Sorry, don't but a horse not liking abit, if he was never educated as to how to respond to a bit correctly.
The reason so many, many horses are declared not to like bits, is that they are started bittless, and very easily transfer those same pressure points to riding, that were used since that horse was first halter broke.
Then someone slaps a bit in the mouth of that horse, expecting that horse to automatically transfer any giving on his face, to his mouth
Thus,m when that poor confused horse gaps his mouth, ect, he is instantly declared not to like bits!
The ONLY choice you should even consider, going from bittless to a bit, at this stage , is a snaffle.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Boring questions I know, how old is he and when did he last have his teeth done, and have his wolf teeth been removed?

All basic things to check out before deciding which bits he likes, start with a horse with a comfortable mouth, then start your search.

Now sadly, whatever advice anyone gives you, it will be a case of trial and error until you find THE bit, which is why a trainer with a bit box is a great idea. My horse didn't like the French Link, HATED the Mylers I tried, shame such nice bits...through a lot of trial and error, and the trainers bit box, we found HIS bit, a berry jointed snaffle, with loose rings, I was very reluctant to try it because I don't like loose rings but he suddenly was quiet and soft in his mouth with it.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Yogiwick said:


> A lot of trainers have "bit boxes" you can rummage around in. Buying online and returning is a pain so I'd see what you could find available at least to try.
> 
> Avoiding the whole "poll pressure" thing as I'm not sure how accurate it is (though the bit I posted is worth trying if you think it is accurate) I would go with this next:
> 
> ...


Apologize. Quoted the above to fix the link (my mistake).

Agree with Smilie's point on proper collection but I do think getting a bit the horse likes is a good idea.

Also disagree that a D ring is the "bit of choice" for English (or anything)..says who? I don't think the cheeks matter so much, though agree a basic snaffle is the go to (for pretty much all discipline's I'm sure) as a starting bit by anyone who knows their stuff.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

So many Arabians are ridden in SO MUCH junk that they cannot even think straight. Training forks, draw reins, whips and spurs create horses that are confused beyond belief. I would put a snaffle in his mouth with no reins, and ride him in the halter like a colt. Even a rubber snaffle. They are pretty cheap. Give him time to get his confidence back. After afew weeks, add reins, but keep your halter line, and start gradually adding contact on the bit. Soft and moving with his mouth. 

I rehabbed a gelding like this. We only walked, bareback, halter, for 2 weeks. Then added trot. Once he stayed relaxed, I added the saddle back and went on with his training.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yogiwick said:


> Apologize. Quoted the above to fix the link (my mistake).
> 
> Agree with Smilie's point on proper collection but I do think getting a bit the horse likes is a good idea.
> 
> Also disagree that a D ring is the "bit of choice" for English (or anything)..says who? I don't think the cheeks matter so much, though agree a basic snaffle is the go to (for pretty much all discipline's I'm sure) as a starting bit by anyone who knows their stuff.


Well, certainly, if not showing in any discipline, then one does not need to use bits that give slight nuisance far as function
Any snaffle bit, smooth mouth, can work to introduce a horse to a bit
The Kimberwick is not it, even in the snaffle rein position, as it has a cavasson 

A D ring, because it has fixed mouth piece, distributes pressure over a wider area, and thus is used in disciplines where one always rides with some contact, which doe not mean that many recreational riders, never getting into the finer points, can't do very well with a D ring.

An O ring, has a lot more 'feel', and is thus a bit of choice where a horse eventually learns to work on a loose rein. It is therefore the snaffle used in any western performance training program

The full cheek snaffle, is a snaffle that works very well for those that just wish to recreational ride. John lyons is a great promoter of this bit
The full cheek snaffle eliminates the need for a non functioning curb strap to be on that western bridle, which has no cavasson, to prevent the accidental pulling of the opposite ring into the mouth , when you need to take hold of a colt
The full cheek snaffle, also applies pressure to the opposite side of the face, from the direct rein that is applied.

This finding a bit a horse likes, going to gimmick bits, like happy mouth , ect, are all embraced by non pros.
Why?
Because in reality, in most cases, the bit is not the problem, but rather the rider, who has not developed that feel, a person has, who has trained hundreds of horses, and who get excellent results on colts after colts, that are started in a plain well made snaffle
I know not of one respected trainer that resorts to these gimmick bits.
Sure, they have many bits, as have I, that give very slight differences of communication in a horse with a good foundation in training, and in a specific event, but if you ask any of these trainers which bits they absolutely had to have, any western trainer will tell you a plain snaffle, then some jointed mouth curb, and then some curb with a port

Both my son and I, and numerous other horse people that I respect, have turned out many many horses over the years, all started in a plain snaffle

My advise-get a good snaffle bit, and then take some lessons from a well respected trainer
Far as that poll pressure, it is very slight, and only in a curb bit, not with a snaffle
Once a horse has that education in a snaffle, the entire idea is that he 'graduates' to a curb', to the point, western, where he responds to that signal, provided by that leverage bit, before bit contact ever comes into play, and that poll pressure would be way less than leading a horse in a halter
Some excellent bit function reading, is available by reading some of the info, provided by the Mater bit maker, Greg Darnell.
He goes into how the different designs of a snaffle bit work, and snaffle bits are divided into two main categories
fixed bit rings and loose


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

some thoughts from pros:
'And this admittedly "old fashioned" horseman adds some words of advice.

"A good bit will cost between $100 and $200. You can always spend more and if you are into upper-level competition that often demands a higher priced bit. It's kind of like race cars: if you are going to race, you don't buy a cheap car. It's the same with bits."

Mike Berg

NRHA Professional Mike Berg, head trainer at Darling 888 Ranch, says a smooth ring snaffle is "part of any trainer's arsenal." "I have a preference for handmade snaffles," he admits. "They seem to work best. And it seems the older, more used bits are best of all."

Those cheap snaffles, that can be bought anywhere from $10 to 20 dollars or so, are often the problem, and not the general copied design. All snaffles, regardless of price, are far from equal-just like a good saddle, versus some no name knock off


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Darned if I know why it is 'wrong' to use a bit the horse likes. Some horses have no preference. Some do. If they do, what is the harm in using one they are comfortable and eager in?

O-rings can pinch a lip, and some horses don't like bit guards. Some don't like thick mouthpieces. Mia liked her Waterford - more so than any other snaffle I tried on her. People can call it harsh, but I guess Mia forgot to take that class. She also preferred a curb to a snaffle, and learned things like how to stop and how to neck rein while using a curb bit. Again, I guess she didn't attend the right clinics or read the right books. Being a backyard rider, I was just happy to find something that worked - proper training programs be ****ed!

Bandit doesn't like a Waterford. Probably too thick for him since he's got a lot of tongue packed into his mouth already. If he cares about "O-ring vs Eggbutt vs D-ring vs Full Cheek", he hides it darn well. But the less moving stuff in his mouth, the better he responds - so Billy Allen snaffles and single joints make him happy, regardless of the cheek. I may get him a mullen...are western riders allowed to use English bits? Well, in my neighborhood they are. I'll just tell him the $25 Korsteel mullen is a "Jeremiah Johnson Uranium Bit" that I got cheap off of Ebay for $275. He's gullible.

For showing, folks need to use whatever makes sense given the rules and goals of the show. Same for a given sport. For general education purposes, I think a horse should at least be exposed to sidepulls, a wide variety of snaffles, and at least one curb bit.

As for metals, none of my horses seem to care. Copper gets damaged easily. Did I mention my horses have been known to snack with the bit in their mouth...as in almost every ride? Oh well...they may not collect, but they won't starve without a fight:








​
Apart from that, I've seen no difference in any of them between copper, sweet iron and stainless steel. Currently, Bandit is in a single joint D-ring, stainless steel with copper inserts, about $25. Trooper is in an Eggbut half-moon, about $30. And Cowboy is using a single joint O-ring of sweet iron, about $22 IIRC. I pull the price tag before use, so my horses don't know how cheap they are. If they ever ask, I'll lie and tell them the bits set me back $175.

In snaffles, Mia preferred her Waterford or single joint bits of any configuration. She was always better in a Billy Allen curb than anything else.

Kimberwicks have a pretty good reputation on HF. Lots of folks have reported good results with them. With bits, it is cheapest to borrow some and find out what the horse thinks of the bit. They don't surf the net and sometimes have a different point of view than humans.

BTW - this is a good, all around guide to bits:

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/aaepfocus/2006/bennett1.pdf


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

When I was a teen countless horses were ridden in Tom Thumbs and seemed to like them. It was often used as a transition bit from snaffle to curb but not many riders went on to the curb. The way it's talked about now you'd think it was akin to using barbed wire for a mouthpiece.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

HighOctaine2000 said:


> All the ones I looked at had a small little hole to connect to.


You mentioned this and no one picked up on it and answered it.....
I'll try...

Those small openings are called rein slots.
Placing you rein through either of them changes how fast the "action" of the bit engages in the horses mouth.
You though on a horse looking for gentleness should probably not use those "slots" but just connect your rein through the large ring like the slots don't exist.
I do understand the use of rein slots but can't explain them well...maybe another poster could...
There actually is a bit looks like yours without those slots I believe I've seen called a "Uexter Kimberwick".
I found you a picture of a pony one quickly but it does come in horse sizes also..
_Pony Kimberwicke Bit | Dover Saddlery

_So, the other thing that was not mentioned is if that bit has a steel linked chain or any "chain linked" bit the chain links must be laid flat no twists against the palm of your hand before attaching it to the bit hook.
In English you also place 2 fingers between the chain and jaw groove so the horse is not immediately "on alert" to pressure from that chain but has a "warning" and a chance to comply with your request before the added pressures of that chain add strength to that bit.

If your horse is truly soft mouthed and very quick to respond they also make a mullen mouth bit that does not need any "curb chain" or added pressures of that._
Mullen Mouth Eggbutt Snaffle Bit | Dover Saddlery
_Again comes in many "styles" but the wording "mullen mouth" is in this case referring to a non-jointed bit, straight bar or a very slight curve on it.

You might not need that chain at all and still gain the same communication exactness you are searching for....

Best of luck finding "the bit" for your horse...
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo.._


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

nothing wrong with using a bit a horse likes, but chosing a bit, deciding on which bit, on a horse that has not been ridden with a bit likes will be based on false observations.
All remains fact that horses are ridden in Kimberwicks, with reins in that second slot, thus giving curb action, for more control, and is a step up in that regards, from the usual D ring snaffle . It is also not a bit used in the English discipline, to start a horse in a bit
THIS horse sounds totally un educated to a bit.
Why is even poll pressure given as an excuse, as poll pressure, that is very very slight, only happens with a curb bit, including that Kimberwick, if reins are in curb position
I do think that this horse needs to be started in a bit, at least under the guidance of some knowledgeable trainer, in some basic snaffle, and as that education in a bit advances-yes then one often finds a bit that a particular horse works just a bit better in
No bit is going to compensate for the correct groundwork in bitting a horse, having a horse learn those new pressure points , gradually, and thus going on to a horse that is relaxed riding in a bit, with ahappy closed mouth, relaxed jaw, soft in face and poll
The bit to achieve this kindergarten phase, remains , whether egg butt, D ring, o ring, full cheek snaffle-all smooth mouth, one joint or two, and neither too thin or too thick. All have kindergarten direct action, no leverage, and also no poll pressure
Maybe once the horse is going well in a snaffle, the OP might wish to use a kimberwick to show the horse


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Smilie completely agree with the concept of "just throw a snaffle on" (as a brief and inaccurate summary just to get my point across lol) though I think in this situation there is no reason not to try and find a bit the horse may respond better to.

Agree, regardless of the bit the horse needs training and I think the OP is putting a little too much focus on finding the "magic" bit as opposed to the overall picture.

Like I said I'm not even sure why the Kimberwick was chosen so if the horse goes nicely in something else see no reason to put it in the Kimberwick at any point.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

horselovinguy quoting you messed me up lol.

The question about the hole to connect to was for the curb chain:








which the bit she bought doesn't have..

If she doesn't want to use the slots then that defeats the purpose of buying the Kimberwick in the first place, though a Kimberwick wouldn't be one I'd think to try on an overly sensitive horse with bit issues..


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Oops... sorry Yogi!

Somehow my computer and I skipped quite a few posts....like more than a pages worth.:x
_Thanks for catching it and "fixing" my goof!! :thumbsup:_
_I couldn't figure out how that "holes" was not addressed._
Now I know!! :icon_rolleyes:

Like I said, "Oops....."
:runninghorse2:....


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## HighOctaine2000 (Sep 15, 2015)

Woo, you guys sure give me a lot to mentally digest! As I posted earlier, the Kimberwick was too large, so I will not be using it - nor does it seem appropriate to replace it with a smaller one from what I'm understanding.

To clarify - he has been ridden with a bit plenty. He was at an Arabian show barn for a few years and they were less than gentle with him. The reason I am riding bitless now is because I was not finding a bit he was happy with - and yes, I was with a trainer at the previous barn.

While I appreciate the advice, I don't believe in forcing him to like a snaffle... he had plenty of time with a snaffle and was a little ****y pants. We are at the point now where he is much more relaxed when being ridden since we've abandoned bits altogether, and next year I'd like to try some local shows, so want a bit he can school in and show in.

The barn I'm at now is mostly western riders - while I might find a bit he likes, I won't be able to show english in it. I'll have to run through all this again and write down a lot of the suggestions and see if I can find some used ones.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

About 15 yrs ago I met a lady from Britain who knew the people who designed the Kimberwick. He was a farrier and it was designed for willful ponies. The Farrier's name was Kimblewick. To an American the british pronounciation of "ble" is often pronounced "ber". She told me he hadn't patented his design.


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