# Western Pleasure - Heads Too Low?



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

There are a few threads on this already if you search for it. 
It's such a touchy subject that I figure you may as well go read what has already been said without starting the whole thing over again


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## Whipple (Feb 2, 2009)

Oh really? I had no idea. Sorry. I will search for other threads then.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Not a problem


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## bgood400 (Nov 10, 2008)

Horses now are bred to carry there heads like that. It is natural for them. Some horses do have their heads too low, which can be a problem but in a lot of cases that is just how they are bred.


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## kershkova (Jun 25, 2008)

my horse if you give him the reins he keeps his head abought wither level or a little below the withers. its his breeding. but he will lift it up for jumping when you tighten up your reins.


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## bilyeuamber (Mar 2, 2009)

There are a lot of things about pleasure that are unnatural for the horse. (no offense anyone) The pace is very unnatural and lots of pleasure horses come up with navicular because of the unnatural way that they are trained to perform. Some horses naturally hold their heads lower because of their conformation, but just as many are trained to keep their heads lowered. That is why training forks and draw reins became so popular.


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## bgood400 (Nov 10, 2008)

bilyeuamber said:


> There are a lot of things about pleasure that are unnatural for the horse. (no offense anyone) The pace is very unnatural and lots of pleasure horses come up with navicular because of the unnatural way that they are trained to perform. Some horses naturally hold their heads lower because of their conformation, but just as many are trained to keep their heads lowered. That is why training forks and draw reins became so popular.


you may be surprised at how slow some pleasure horses lope naturally.


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## BuckOff41570 (Nov 15, 2008)

bilyeuamber said:


> There are a lot of things about pleasure that are unnatural for the horse. (no offense anyone) The pace is very unnatural and lots of pleasure horses come up with navicular because of the unnatural way that they are trained to perform. Some horses naturally hold their heads lower because of their conformation, but just as many are trained to keep their heads lowered. That is why training forks and draw reins became so popular.


There are a few things I would have to dissagree with here. Don't get me wrong, I personally would like to see a more forward jog and lope...but I have to point out a couple things that you said. The navicular topic... I've never come across that sort of accusation. Its completely innacurate. 

Training forks (martingales) and draw reins pre-dated the pleasure craze. They have been used in every dicipline from hunter/jumpers and dressage to reining and,yes, barrel racing. These aides gain bad reputations based on the incapable riders who handle them. Riders who don't understand the proper way to use them.

Just figured I'd share...


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## Whipple (Feb 2, 2009)

I have read another post which was closed shortly after I posted. I hope this one can stay civil, this is an interesting topic to me.
After reading all responses, I do believe that there are horses who just have low set heads in their blood. I then looked at a few pictures of horses I know and they have that low head set. So yes, it is in those horses blood.
BUT, I also know that in any competative sport people who are just not that great will do not so great things to try to get ahead. This could include training a horse to hold his head lower then he would normally, or walk far slower then he would prefer. I think if you're going to compete in WP make sure your horses is uited. If he's not, do something he is suited to. Don't force him. It's not fair.
So thats where I am on WP head sets currently, but I always love to hear more.

BTW, isn't it :"Horses for courses"


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I just think it is like every discipline. There are plenty of capable riders and naturally "pleasure" moving horses. But then there are a bunch of riders who take it to the extreme.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

The heads are too low in pleasure, a lot of the time. And they SHOULD be disqualified for it with the new rulings, but judges like to look the other way. 

Once the horse breaks at the withers, the weight falls on the forehand (unless he's lifting at the base of the neck like in a 'long and low' dressage frame--but then he wouldn't be 'breaking' at the withers, either). It doesn't matter if it's natural, or not--My horse LOVES plodding around with his head by his knees.

And it _doesn't_ make it okay. This isn't about 'unnatural' and 'natural'--this is about _good_ performance and bad. 

In order for the horse to transfer his weight to the hind end and move in a nice frame for showing, his neck HAS to be level, or he has to be lifting at the base of the neck (which you hardly EVER see in a WP class). Judges are beginning to place horses with more level necklines--not because of the height, but because those horses 'look better'. Because they can carry themselves in a better frame.

You'll still see stupid trainers TRAINING the horse to put it's head down below it's withers, but it's slowly being phased out.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

By me saying that they move naturally, I don't mean they naturally drag their noses on the ground. I mean that they naturally have a more level neck and can be easier trained for WP. 
I think that how a lot of WP horses are trained/bred are based on what the judges are placing. I am glad to see (at least at local shows) that the horses that are carrying themselves well seem to be the ones that are placing rather than the ones going super slow and low.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Wasn't directed at you, Spastic Dove.  I don't appreciate the 'he LIKES to move this way!' comment when a horse is practically kneeing himself in the face with every stride.  Doesn't matter if he likes it, it's still WRONG.


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